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sperx":[{"start":1977.025,"end":1983.77,"text":"好那個民眾黨團的就通知一下好這個本次協商主題"},{"start":1985.291,"end":2011.828,"text":"委员罗廷伟、廖伟祥、黄建豪、杨琼英、习巧新、张奇改等29人建起议会作成结议改善空气品质、守护国人健康台中发电厂因逐年提出并落实减煤计划并在2028年完成无煤中火之国家减碳目标请公结案相关事宜"},{"start":2012.888,"end":2037.807,"text":"本案經114年1月21號立法院第11屆第二會期第18次宴會結議交付黨團協商並由國民黨團負責召集協商協商進行 先我們一律來介紹今天出席的委員有這個羅廷偉委員還有這個陳佩儀委員 陳佩儀委員張錫凱委員然後"},{"start":2044.132,"end":2065.522,"text":"這個機關代表有經濟部常務次長賴建信次長還有這個能源署代理組長夏組長台電總經理王耀廷總經理還有環境部這個料檢認視察謝謝"},{"start":2068.322,"end":2075.674,"text":"那我們現在是不是先請這個羅廷偉委員來要不要做提案說明還是不用"},{"start":2083.775,"end":2097.682,"text":"謝謝主席以及我們現場所有與會的同事還有我們主管機關提案說明其實鑑於環境部火速通過台中發電廠第二期的興建燃氣機組環評案"},{"start":2099.463,"end":2125.202,"text":"那新增了竟然六部機組而原本規劃要除以的藍媒機組轉為緊急使用那我們就覺得這個中火就是變相再繼續擴敞那變成六七六媒跟過去經濟部對我們台中市民的一個承諾爭一氣猜一媒的一個減媒規劃如今不減反針我們覺得中火目前所面臨到不只是追究"},{"start":2125.922,"end":2153.819,"text":"更是全球最大而且它是亞林界的燃煤電廠對於整個台中市以及中南部的整個健康發展都是非常非常的有劇烈的一個影響所以我們還是希望目前啊能夠像台電長期向國人的宣傳的早一天蒸汽早一天減煤能夠如今中火一起的燃氣機組呢也即將在今年還有明年呢完工運轉"},{"start":2154.98,"end":2174.654,"text":"那在這個總計2600的發電量總裝置容量可立即太出4.7座的藍莓機組但是基本上呢現階段又跟我們講不願意去太出所以對我們來說是非常非常的憤怒那藍莓基本上的整個空污影響我們覺得都是"},{"start":2175.515,"end":2196.723,"text":"影響空屋最劇烈的之一所以還是希望在2028年能夠趕緊完成當時所承諾的無煤台中那特別是中張頭雲嘉南都將是這一個中火發電的一個燃煤深受影響的最遠的一個縣市"},{"start":2198.204,"end":2222.122,"text":"行政院規劃2034年無煤中火的一個政策在此這個目標2024到2031中火僅將減煤160萬公噸與現行的2023年的用煤量相較自2031年仍有71%的煤電未太足減煤的進程我們是覺得嚴重的落後所以據統計2024的中火已經減煤了"},{"start":2227.406,"end":2239.934,"text":"630萬公噸的用煤量但是2025呢中火燃氣機組一上線可繼續汰除432萬公噸量但是2026還有加入民營的中佳燃氣電廠喔"},{"start":2241.375,"end":2248.141,"text":"所以以及中火的燃氣一期第二個機組可再以以氣鈦煤636萬噸公噸的一個這個燃煤但是最遲啊我們包在計算是2028即可每年節電83億度以此2028就可以達到無煤中火"},{"start":2263.694,"end":2288.635,"text":"這個是有一個騎乘並且是有具體的一個路徑以上來跟大家做一個報導也希望說這個部分能夠幫忙那支持2028無煤中火的主決議台灣要敬禮中火先無煤這個倡議的口號聲我們在基本上在每次記者會我們都堅定的一直在發聲這也是我們台中許多的公民團體不斷的一直在"},{"start":2289.455,"end":2302.64,"text":"包括這個台灣健康空氣行動聯盟的岳光彤醫師他們也都是一直在這個部分上一直在喊話所以今天先做初步的報告也希望說大家能夠一起來支持 以上這個提案委員 羅廷偉委員的說明其他委員要不要好 那個張錫凱委員"},{"start":2314.679,"end":2340.486,"text":"今天這個提案應該是不分朝野應該都是會共同支持的事實上減碳還有特別是減少燃煤這是國家既定的政策可是我們回去檢視我要引述的是中經驗的資料他說我們匯合政策一直在推的時候要減碳結果最近這8年我們的碳排放量"},{"start":2341.414,"end":2364.02,"text":"不減反增最近這8年我們的碳排增加了高達80萬噸就是我們人民用廢發電的這個同時碳排一直在增加那特別是517517台灣進入非核家園之後我們的火力發電全開大家有看到"},{"start":2368.231,"end":2397.525,"text":"前幾天台中市市長盧秀燕開了第一槍他非常的擔心擔憂的狀況下出來講了中火就是我們今天在討論這個中火是全台灣最大的污染源最大的污染源結果呢在五一七核能歸零的前一天跟後面一天中火啊"},{"start":2400.99,"end":2419.727,"text":"他的這個燒煤的這個燒煤的這個不只沒有減少竟然從16號一天喔就燒了3.23萬噸的煤炭到了19號大家看看3天19號那一天攀升到4.62萬噸就是在輝和家園前後的16號到19號"},{"start":2427.375,"end":2448.354,"text":"差了多少多燒了1.4萬噸的煤多恐怖啊大家可以想像嗎當政府一直在說我們要少燒煤結果在中火你非常具體的看到他燒的這個煤炭竟然在19號當天比16號一口氣增加了1.4萬噸"},{"start":2453.379,"end":2464.475,"text":"我們不只用廢在發電這對全民的健康有多大一個影響事實上中火整個影響從苗栗以南一直到高雄全部都影響到了"},{"start":2467.901,"end":2493.674,"text":"所以台灣民眾黨非常支持我們共同提案要求基於改善空氣品質守護我們國人的健康要求台中發電廠要逐年提出落實減煤這個計畫是每一年都要提那更重要的我們訂那個目標希望在2028年就完成無煤中火的國家減碳目標"},{"start":2496.387,"end":2513.855,"text":"這個為什麼非常的重要第一個是本來政府就要做的可是目前時間看起來一直在延宕包括台中市政府跟全民一直在要求的希望說你現在如果改成天然氣那你有沒有一個天然氣完成的時候你就是要把這個燒煤炭的"},{"start":2517.543,"end":2543.336,"text":"要廢掉可是那政府到現在沒有引諾而且甚至是跳票的之前引諾我們全民的跳票了所以我們今天非常具體的希望他每年提出一個減煤的這個計畫而且在2028年完成無煤的這個中火還給前台灣的這個民眾一個空氣新鮮的這個空氣另外我要特別提醒一點這不是只有中火碰到的問題"},{"start":2545.613,"end":2569.827,"text":"從非核加鹽517之後大家都有感受到包括連高雄市議院都跳出來說我們的燃煤的基礎是不是燒得比以前更兇了當然台電今天講這些都是平常可能就要用的可是有沒有發現這段時間全民都在擔心空污越來越嚴重而且很多本來已經停止或者是沒有再買的例如說"},{"start":2571.488,"end":2598.221,"text":"麥寮的電廠麥寮是全台灣第二大污染源剛講中火是第一第二就是麥寮了麥寮本來在河山廠的一號機去年停機完之後那個時間點本來麥寮我們台電跟他買電應該是要契約時間是到的可是台電又緊急去跟他續約讓這個台灣的第二大污染源也是燒煤炭的要一直延續到今年的年底所以那時候包括"},{"start":2600.189,"end":2629.284,"text":"雲林、外嘉義台南彰化、南投還有非常多的民間團體北上到行政院抗議到監察院去陳情他們說他們忍受那麼久的燒煤很多人用會發電甚至肺腺癌的比例一直在攀升好不容易判到他已經可以停了結果台電為了推動飛河的時候他去補了一個"},{"start":2631.293,"end":2647.726,"text":"燒煤的麥寮電廠的這個電傷害到我們人民的這個健康所以我要呼籲今天不只是要支持中火趕快在2028年完成無煤中火我們也希望在燒煤炭這一塊全台灣所有的燒煤的這個電廠都要大幅的減低 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在接下來請黃將豪委員"},{"start":2653.834,"end":2675.862,"text":"好谢谢主席后我想今天的这个主要的问题在我们提出是2028无煤中火那原因当然在于说好2025年和2026年预计很能够完成所有的燃气机组让我都知道说新的燃气机组理论上他的发电效率会比燃煤机组来的高所以我们觉得说第一个过去台电跟经济部也曾经承诺过"},{"start":2676.582,"end":2703.607,"text":"新建的燃气机组之后就能够取代燃煤机组那燃煤机组就应该除溢或者是拆除这是我们最主要的主张所以既然有新的燃气机组那在现行的能源政策之下发电量足够那就不应该再启用燃煤机组所以我们才提出所谓2028无煤中火的一个这个这个诉求那么回顾这几天依据这个台电官网公布的台中电厂的用煤量"},{"start":2704.227,"end":2722.42,"text":"我想跟去年相比5月13号到5月20号我们都是用同一天来比较跟去年同一天来比较5月16号去年的用的用煤量是2.75万吨那今年是3.22万吨5月17去年3.21万吨今年是4.02万吨5月18去年2.87万吨今年提高到3.8万吨"},{"start":2730.206,"end":2757.58,"text":"5月19去年的5月19号是2.76吨今年提高到4.64吨5月20号去年用3.56吨今年用4.28吨我刚所列举这些日子就在近这几天发生的事情而已我想每一天的这个的用煤量同一天都比去年来的高那很显见很显然发现一件事情就是我们一直强调说要减煤要降低燃煤发电但是很显然在这个"},{"start":2758.22,"end":2783.635,"text":"数据上面看不出来有减少的趋势每一天每一天都在增加那当然我们高度怀疑是不是因为这个非核家园之后我们整体用力量不够所以必须来让这个台中电厂用更多的发电量更多的煤炭来处理我的发电问题所以我们才需要提出的这样的决议我们希望说既然今年跟明年都会有燃气机组完成那完成之后"},{"start":2784.375,"end":2807.233,"text":"既然都是火力发电那火力发电有分天然气跟燃煤那燃煤是真的效率相对比较差而且对空气污染对人体健康伤害比较重的一种发电方式那是不是在今年跟明年竟然都有燃气机组能够新建完成的前提之下那2028年让中火能够真正的达成无煤中火让现在这些老旧"},{"start":2808.448,"end":2820.424,"text":"燃煤機組到2028年的時候都停止運轉不要再用這種燃煤的方式來發電來傷害中部這麼多縣市人民的健康以上謝謝好謝謝那個楊瓊英委員"},{"start":2827.683,"end":2846.364,"text":"非常的感謝我想今天針對這個議題對於我們中部地區來講我們長期的付出應該要還給我們中部地區的人不要再用廢發電這是我們非常非常卑微的一個要求"},{"start":2847.205,"end":2866.606,"text":"但是我們看到從要增氣一直到承諾我們一直得不到政府的承諾因為第一個從王美花部長說增氣我們就減煤就拆煤氣機組但是到現在我們仍舊在期待"},{"start":2867.587,"end":2891.845,"text":"我们看到最后在蒸汽的这个环境里头台电给了一个应许也就是2031年开始来减煤减煤300万吨但是我们知道我们现在每一年在中国所烧的煤量大概是1100万吨至1200万吨左右"},{"start":2894.887,"end":2919.243,"text":"那换句话说到2031年我们还有七至八年的时间到底我们的台电政府经济部你的督导你们的减煤计划是不是在这一段时间就不减煤了呢因为你所承诺的是2031年才开始要减煤一年300万吨"},{"start":2921.204,"end":2923.507,"text":"那換句話說現在我們就是1100萬噸至1200萬噸這七八年你不要減煤了嗎尤其我們看到在17號河山廠的二號機正式停役之後"},{"start":2939.025,"end":2964.888,"text":"正式停役之后我们看到我们的17号晚上18号19号连续三天火力全开在蒸汽的还品会里头我们只看到什么看到告诉我们也就是在非空污时期那么中火只有可以动九步机"},{"start":2966.249,"end":2986.129,"text":"九部機 那目前為止等於是九部火力全開那台電的臉書竟然還說 這沒有火力全開我說 這不是火力全開 這是什麼呢另外一個說法 又說是白天減煤"},{"start":2987.537,"end":2990.399,"text":"所以不是晚上增煤那這樣的一個情況讓我們更憂心因為數據告訴我們17號晚上18號19號這三天所增加的電量是大概1000到2000MW"},{"start":3008.191,"end":3037.25,"text":"用數字用真相來告訴民眾所增加的煤量是一天0.8萬噸至1萬噸的一個煤量這不是增加我們中部地區健康的風險危險嗎這是什麼所以早上我們在這個經濟委員會也特別問了經濟部長也特別台電的代表是副總經理我特別請問了副總經理我說"},{"start":3038.371,"end":3041.052,"text":"會不會增加燃煤是常態但是副總經理告訴我們不會是常態所以既然說不會是常態我們要用實際的數字實際的真相告訴台電如果你說的你不增加煤量那為什麼我們這三天的數字跟同期的三天是如此"},{"start":3067.242,"end":3083.74,"text":"因為我們看到最近這6年來不管是中央地方我們大家的努力終於一天大概平均是6部機而且平均的發電量是60%但是這一次火力全開的90%"},{"start":3085.402,"end":3087.524,"text":"我們的人民不憂心嗎?我們的人民不恐懼嗎?所以今天這個提案也就是從王美花部長開始要爭氣一直到現在我們看不到真正的減煤計畫"},{"start":3103.678,"end":3112.946,"text":"所以我們希望得到藍綠白的委員大家的同意我們希望能夠真正的來落實這個落實也就是在2028年無眉我們的環境樣態"},{"start":3120.333,"end":3137.45,"text":"那么同时在每一年都能够提出我们的减煤计划因为我们真的是希望让我们的人民能够安心这个减煤的计划务必要拿出而不是只有告诉我们2031年开始我们要减煤一年300万吨"},{"start":3141.454,"end":3166.113,"text":"我再一次的強調現在所燒的中火大概是1100萬噸到1200萬噸如果要等到2031年才允許每一年要減300萬噸那等於這七到八年的時間根本是不減煤的樣態所以我們希望得到大家的支持也希望行政部門能夠來說明跟落實 謝謝好 陳委員先好了"},{"start":3171.431,"end":3193.316,"text":"那個好謝謝主席根據今天我們要來協商的這個內容看起來國民黨還有所有聯署的委員是希望把這個期限提早到2028然後所以他們剛剛搬出了非常多的數字我想要提醒國民黨的委員或是今天所有聯署的委員目前為止"},{"start":3194.456,"end":3212.601,"text":"所有火力發電全開的時候事實上是在馬英九總統跟胡志強市長任內在蔡英文總統上任之後相關的數字跟空瓶都一直在改善但是你們不願意看相關的數字只有一個提出的非常荒謬的提議再來我要提醒剛剛講完就快閃不敢面對現實張綺凱委員你們在"},{"start":3215.242,"end":3230.652,"text":"禮拜二才通過荒謬的核三重啟的公投案可能在8月23就有相關公投要進行但你不回答核廢料的問題不回答核安的問題然後現在拿現在今天在這個協商會議當中你還再次造謠說"},{"start":3231.753,"end":3246.145,"text":"用廢發電這件事情我要強烈指控你的造謠因此我認為如果我們真的要回答相關的科學問題就請回到專業論述而不要再任意的造謠還有你還是沒有回答核廢料跟核胺的問題以上謝謝好還有誰要發言好麥義珍"},{"start":3254.02,"end":3265.784,"text":"謝謝主席我們台灣這個月為核三廠的停役後正式進行非核家園政府高舉著能源轉型的這個大旗子但實際上這個這面旗代表的是卻把全國發電的"},{"start":3274.167,"end":3294.816,"text":"重大压回中部的地区让中部地区成为牺牲品时时刻刻提醒着我们今天的电都是用人民的费来换的根据台电的公开资讯以核电停止前一日以后一日"},{"start":3296.209,"end":3311.977,"text":"相作比较暴增了50%的燃煤量18日中火10步燃煤机组开了9步而少了一步是因为已经停止"},{"start":3313.178,"end":3317.24,"text":"本來就是不能運作的所以才不會開如果不開全力開實際上就是名符其實的火力全開現在呢才5月到了6月7月8月夏季的電力需求高峰又怎麼辦呢答案只有一個繼續火力全開農務"},{"start":3341.667,"end":3370.818,"text":"弥漫继续牺牲着我们中张头云渣南地区的空气品质中火电力目前是依靠燃煤而来而燃煤众所积枝并非干净的能源政府一边含着能源转型却对于造成中部的空污严重的燃煤发电视而不见"},{"start":3371.738,"end":3379.416,"text":"原来政府的口中非核电家园非核家园就是换成全媒家园"},{"start":3380.902,"end":3404.067,"text":"尤其令人憤怒的中火早已是全国污染量和碳排放量的最高的电厂如今台中发电厂新建的燃气机组计划环平案通过后新增了六部燃气机组"},{"start":3405.154,"end":3420.593,"text":"原规划要除异燃煤机组不拆除反而转为紧急扩阻无以章让中火以勇成为全球最大的火力发电厂"},{"start":3421.693,"end":3443.699,"text":"这对我们中部居民来说是难以承受的负担与噩梦经济部曾经对台中人民承诺争一气拆一枚的减霉规划如今害怕想起来了还是为了达成非核家园的里程碑"},{"start":3444.759,"end":3452.17,"text":"即使明知綠電整位穩定還是一一孤行說好了以氣換煤難道只是政策"},{"start":3458.459,"end":3483.825,"text":"买票的谎言吗如今燃气机组将于今年明年完工的转运转燃气和稍微比燃煤更干净的能源但实际上氧气发电量完全可以取代老旧的燃煤机组既然政府对定定下就是减煤的目标"},{"start":3485.267,"end":3513.499,"text":"那就应该更踏实的执行能源转型不该拿中部人民的健康代价更不能是一场政治失言的骗局我们坚持2028无煤中火是政府能源转型的路上的责任是对中部地区人民的承诺绝不能只是空头支票谢谢"},{"start":3514.824,"end":3515.309,"text":"好 非常謝謝"},{"start":3517.38,"end":3544.114,"text":"剛才這個各黨團的代表都來發言看起來這個陳偉剛的發言就是還是有不同意見今天仍然無法達成共識是不是這個本案就保留我們就依後續依立法院之前刑事法第12章相關規定來處理"},{"start":3547.349,"end":3552.698,"text":"可以嗎好我們就協商會議結束非常謝謝非常謝謝上會"}]}},{"id":"161785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f94cd4e1bf004b85de018167f9c4d828f8bea248a27804db818cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:16:09 - 09:19:02","影片長度":"00:02:53","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T09:16:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T09:19:02+08:00","duration":173,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.87846875,"end":4.283468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.80221875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.039718750000002,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.24159375,"end":33.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.86534375,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.52284375,"end":57.726593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.11471875,"end":71.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.80034375000001,"end":75.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.69846875,"end":82.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.43159375,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.92909375,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.79784375,"end":105.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.95534375000001,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.45534375000001,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.97721875000002,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.50346875,"end":168.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.45596875,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.10096875000002,"end":173.40471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.829,"end":28.423,"text":"本席今天有兩個提案第一個就是針對原住民主基本法公布施行後20年來設限於中央目的事業主管機關的經費及權責劃分以及各地方政府的財政能力不均故原住民主地區固有的交通建設、水利設施、農產運銷、觀光及環境設施等改善情況不如預期"},{"start":29.324,"end":56.596,"text":"以致原住民族地區之基礎環境及公共服務品質未能有效提升因此本席修正原住民族基本法第十五條第一項第二項之規定明定要求政府設置原住民族地區建設基金其設置基金之規模應為新台幣一百億元並以本法修正施行後五年內分年編列預算以加速改善原住民族地區各項基礎建設及利於促進原鄉觀光及產業等經濟活動"},{"start":58.197,"end":87.511,"text":"第二個就是因為最近太陽關店跟封店的設置一直困擾我們原鄉地區所以我再提了一個原區法第21條的立法議旨以及民國94年公佈施行的原條文關之該條文是關於原住民族最關心的知情同意權以及政府或私人與原住民族土地從事土地開發資源利用生態保育及學術研究原住民族的分享其相關利益原條文為政府或私人與原住民族"},{"start":87.891,"end":105.023,"text":"土地內從事土地開發資源利用生態保育學術研究因諮商並取得原住民族同意或參與原住民族的分享相關利益不限私有或公有土地建立原住民族土地應該是先於國家法規而存在的自然主權"},{"start":106.364,"end":130.096,"text":"應該沒有公有或私有之分然該辦法其公佈卻將知情同意權的行使僅限縮在公有民族民保留地上而排除私有之適用將造成原住民族傳統領域土地的支離甚至衍生出原住民族土地沿海一帶私有土地的開發案或再生能源開發案如太陽能風電及熱能碳勘及"},{"start":131.497,"end":150.994,"text":"开发等民间业则刻意选择私有原住民保留地而无该办法的适用导致原住民的权益无法有效的伸张跟保障故本席为了保障原住民主土地权益特针对原住民主土地或部落范围土地划设办法"},{"start":151.654,"end":169.695,"text":"這公佈所聲言僅限於公有原住民主保留地的爭議點應就母法部分現行原住民主基本法第21條的規定應修正為民國94年原基法公佈施行的條文文字以消弭此一爭議謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f99a8107718179c656dbbda46ccfe01665bea248a27804db818a87edb53361b94a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:36:27 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謝謝主席"},{"start":197.233,"end":222.774,"text":"非常感謝今天所有的學者專家針對這份重要的議題提出寶貴的意見我更感謝這麼多的民間團體犧牲自己的時間在公寓的時候不管是站上街頭還是來到立法院發出人民的心聲我自己是一個法律人"},{"start":224.127,"end":249.205,"text":"但是我們自己都會時常的反省法律人是不是有的時候有過度專業的傲慢而忘了去聆聽第一線基層人民的心聲每一天這麼多年輕的朋友在凱凱安開庭的時候齊聚在台北地方法院外面發出人民的訴求跟怒吼"},{"start":250.437,"end":271.054,"text":"當天也有立法委員到台北地方法院外去聲援我相信我也支持這個是公民社會監督我們司法權運作非常健康的一個意見表達的形式而且也是必要的"},{"start":272.663,"end":287.495,"text":"這個案件讓我們重新開啟了對於很多事情深切的反省跟思考為什麼這樣子說呢我也要特別感謝昭偉今天召開這一場公定會"},{"start":288.666,"end":311.875,"text":"因為每一次我們在討論刑度的時候我最常看見法務部也好司法院也好所提出來的書面報告會挑其中一兩個罪名說這樣子不符合罪責的相當性在法定刑的權衡上面是失衡我必須要說"},{"start":313.463,"end":330.068,"text":"從我們過去刑法到今天各式各樣特別法的修正的確裡面存在的在各個法條彼此之間的法定型的輕重權衡有的時候從純法律的觀點難以解釋但"},{"start":333.008,"end":346.443,"text":"這個是我們在檢討刑度的時候我們的法務部從來就沒有通盤的就刑法分責的規定是不是有重新檢討的必要交出完整的報告"},{"start":347.475,"end":369.665,"text":"也就是說當立法者要回應民意要修改法律針對特定罪名去調整刑度的時候我們法務部慣常的思考模式就是從刑法分則裡面挑起他的條文說你動了這一個那另外的條文法定刑的權衡就會相似衡"},{"start":370.385,"end":384.014,"text":"如果這個是原因的話請法務部的次長今天帶回去請法務部認真地檢討我們針對刑法分責的法定刑有沒有重新全盤調整的必要我為什麼這樣子說呢"},{"start":385.715,"end":412.528,"text":"我們目前刑法328條在暴力的財產犯罪的時候第三項規定暴力財產犯罪我們第一項是五年以上有期徒刑再往下是犯強盜罪因而致人於死處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑犯暴力的財產法益侵害的犯罪如果致人於死可以處死刑"},{"start":413.496,"end":426.983,"text":"那但是每一次我們碰到286條的時候法務部永遠的意見都是如果凌虐兒童致死的話如果給他死刑權衡上面會輕重失衡永遠的理由通通都是這個樣子"},{"start":433.359,"end":458.774,"text":"但是我們看328條跟286條彼此之間的比較就可以清楚的看得出來如果財產侵害財產法律的犯罪透過暴力行為侵害財產法律的犯罪因而致人於死都可以處死刑為什麼 輪孽兒童甚至是一定歲數以下不管是七歲以下 五歲以下 三歲以下完全沒有自衛能力的人"},{"start":459.867,"end":487.895,"text":"自而於死 處法定刑到死刑法務部為什麼一直都在反對為什麼一直都在反對那當然我必須要說的是328條我也看過學者有提出批判但是學者的批判我們立法者都會虛心的傾聽但是我們更關心的是怎麼樣去回應人民的期待"},{"start":488.977,"end":507.267,"text":"當我去思考怎麼去回應人民期待的時候我們馬上就會發現立法者現在面對的困難以及我們可不可以跨越的鴻溝因為刑法328條第三項這一個加重結果犯的處死刑依照"},{"start":508.359,"end":530.982,"text":"我們憲法法庭去年的判決必須要限於有直接蓋瓜或者是折衣的殺人故意才可以處這個法定刑也就是回到了當我們的憲法法庭它不當的介入了我們立法形成的空間對於死刑科處難以跨越的障礙的時候"},{"start":532.386,"end":548.691,"text":"我們必須要嚴肅的面對我們在法定型的調整上立法者還有多少空間在什麼樣子的程度範圍內可以去做調整如果按照我們憲法法庭的要求因為"},{"start":549.551,"end":564.028,"text":"公正公約的確有說施以死刑必須要the most serious crime也就是最嚴重的罪但是我們大法官又往前更跨了一步不僅僅是最嚴重的罪還要犯罪情節最嚴重"},{"start":565.109,"end":579.748,"text":"我在這裡質詢了好幾次問什麼叫做犯罪情節最嚴重要如何判定不管是法務部的代表還是司法院的代表到目前為止沒有辦法提出一個清楚的準據但是"},{"start":580.769,"end":602.554,"text":"我們面臨的困難是一模一樣的當我們的大法官針對這件事情甚至針對我們現在刑法裡面有科死刑的法定刑到底要限縮到什麼樣的程度才可以科處手直接都伸進了立法形成的範圍的時候我們接下來再有關於虐童致死"},{"start":603.214,"end":624.877,"text":"我們的立法者還存在多少的空間還存在多少的空間可以滿足我們的大法官他們自居為立法者所創設的要件這個是我們接下來所要面對的第一個問題那第二個問題我也要呼應有很多民間團體所提出來的這早就不是新鮮事了"},{"start":625.632,"end":645.886,"text":"我國什麼時候有無期徒刑無期徒刑只活在六法全書裡無期徒刑從來沒有落實在具體的實踐當中在具體的實踐當中即使是殺人罪即使是黑幫老大的殺人罪判了無期徒刑關十八年"},{"start":646.909,"end":673.83,"text":"假釋處遇關18年假釋處遇那大家會覺得很奇怪我國刑法規定不是要規定要關滿25年無期徒刑才可以假釋嗎那是因為我們目前刑法整個在刑法上面的處遇對於加害人對於受刑人有所謂的雙重憂鬱什麼叫雙重憂鬱第一個在監鎖的時候就透過所謂的累進處遇的"},{"start":675.851,"end":704.698,"text":"制度讓他關一個月有的可以抵兩天有的可以抵四天有的可以抵六天如果到外議監去做爽勞可以關一天算兩天所以一般的人民很難理解明明不是要一半才可以假育假釋明明不是無期一突襲要過25年才假釋怎麼我們看到這麼多重大的犯罪類型重大的犯罪加害人的時候常常關不到一半就出來了"},{"start":705.718,"end":729.956,"text":"這一種雙重憂鬱的這一種雙重憂鬱我們目前刑事司法的設計你要不然就有假釋我透過假釋的制度鼓勵你改過向善可以早一點出來但是我有門檻我要不然就透過累進處慾的制度透過累進處慾在裡面慢慢的縮短你的刑期但是我們的刑事司法是這兩個制度都有"},{"start":730.797,"end":755.681,"text":"既有什麼 既有縮短刑期的規定又有什麼 又有假釋的規定當這兩個加起來了以後就是我們現在人民看到為什麼常常關不到一半啊 就出來這件事情 在2017年私改國是會議的時候有沒有提出來討論過 有提出來討論過結論有沒有改革的必要 有改革的必要但是我必須要沉痛的說啊"},{"start":756.041,"end":783.201,"text":"毫不令人意外的2017年的史改國式會議不僅僅是林玉秀老師所講的天燈會議放天燈大會更離譜的事情是做成的決議根本沒有在執行浪費納稅人的錢開大拜拜的會議結果會議有結論到現在2025年8年過去了法務部司法院難辭其咎難辭其咎"},{"start":786.192,"end":810.938,"text":"把司改國事會議當成廢紙根本沒有認真的在面對上面的問題那因此當我們的法務部開始跟大家講說在我們的大法官對於死刑的施加施加了難以跨越的鴻溝以後整個社會在討論無期徒刑不可以假設的無期徒刑應不應該是選項法務部說他們贊成應該是選項去年"},{"start":816.67,"end":842.152,"text":"透過媒體發新聞稿說年底要完成 要提出現在已經2025年的5月了請問法務部東西在哪裡法務部部長給我的回應是說行政院還在研議我必須要老實跟大家報告我現在是只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕我只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕因為崔少哲保護法 法務部啊"},{"start":842.915,"end":854.566,"text":"研議了八年提不出草案棄保潛逃罪研議了八年提不出草案不法關說罪研議了八年還是提不出草案"},{"start":856.124,"end":882.466,"text":"我只要聽到法務部或行政院的官員說他們還在研議我聽了就害怕了所以我懇請召委我肯定召委排這個公聽會但是法務部的官員可以混可以繼續研議民間社會不能等我們社會法治委員會在履行我們立法委員職責的時候該排案就排案繼續往前推進"},{"start":883.837,"end":909.52,"text":"我受不了等法務部跟行政院的研議啊我們今天難道要這邊站在這邊告訴人民說讓我們的法務部跟行政院再研議八年啊給他們研議八年以後再來處理啊絕對不接受最後一點寶貴的意見啊犯罪被害人的訴訟參與權我曾經當過犯罪被害人的義務辯護人我在法庭上面實際參與了犯罪被害人的法庭活動"},{"start":911.428,"end":938.137,"text":"我們說強化犯罪被害人訴訟上的地位跟國際接軌那根本是騙人的做半套林玉雄老師的書就寫得很清楚2019年那個時候要求要強化的時候立法理由寫得很漂亮說跟國際接軌那實際上是什麼實際上面是言過其實人為改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場"},{"start":939.534,"end":959.683,"text":"沒有改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場犯罪被害人在刑事訴訟程序上面沒有被視為程序主體沒有辦法對於證人對質詢問沒有辦法對於上訴與否有更大的決定權這個是早就浮在檯面上面的問題啦"},{"start":961.735,"end":979.846,"text":"我希望司法院也好法務部也好不要一天到晚做大內宣什麼跟國際接軌你到底在講什麼東西啊聽不懂啊明明只有做半套最重要的東西都沒有然後在文書上面發新聞稿跟台灣人民說跟國際接軌"},{"start":981.704,"end":995.138,"text":"我最後再次感謝所有學者專家跟民間團體的代表給我們的寶貴意見有的時候我們因為必須要跑來跑去未必可以全程聆聽但是各位寶貴的意見都會在立法院公報留下寶貴的紀錄謝謝大家 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貸款的觸角已經也到了不動產"},{"start":213.697,"end":242.214,"text":"到了建設營造那個行業了本來啊我們國家的銀行貸款給這些不動產業者有個上限中央銀行規定每個銀行貸款給不動產給建設公司建設行業不得超過他當日存款總額的百分之三十用這樣子來控管對不動產的放款這是對的結果"},{"start":244.035,"end":267.12,"text":"這些薯條山兄弟他大剌剌的把錢搬給這個不動產業者那這就成了這個破口嘛因為薯條山兄弟他們不屬於金融業不是銀行業不受這個管制啊那軍管會"},{"start":268.927,"end":283.692,"text":"總是在我黃珊珊委員好幾位委員關注之下總算他們翻箱倒櫃找了金包法說用金包法把薯條三兄弟先納管那他們的好意我接受他們是說啊"},{"start":284.992,"end":312.755,"text":"王思謙你講的這個租賃金融公司管理法它裡面很多我們都把它列入列入這個金保法啦這個金保法但是必須去找薯條三兄弟商量說把你納管要他經過他同意要把他納管給薯條三兄弟一個重量的機會就對了"},{"start":315.055,"end":339.421,"text":"結果鼠寮三兄弟好啦 聽一聽他就說好吧他也說好但是我認為金保法只是個過渡金保法是為了我們要快速的保護金融消費者就是受害的民眾們我們可以透過它來債務協商喔 那這個暫行可以但是進一步一定要租賃 農事公司管理法我為什麼這麼講因為我們"},{"start":342.442,"end":368.89,"text":"進一步的這個專法才能夠對這些二職的鼠療三兄弟跟這些農資公司才可以對他們做行政監督跟業務監督啦所以我認為這個農資公司的成立圖靈公司的成立需要經過主管機關的許可必須取得證照才可以營業而且我認為這個證照必須一定的年限比方說五年他就必須重新申請然後"},{"start":370.17,"end":380.217,"text":"這些融資業者不得借牌如果違反有刑事責任那必須製作聯報接受檢查的義務我認為這些都必須把它納入"},{"start":381.636,"end":409.071,"text":"然後他如果違反這些行政監督管理的項目我們應該可以停止他融資業務可以解除融資業務者相關人的職務然後我們進一步可以廢止這個許可證可以不讓這個融資公司這個租賃公司再橫行霸道然後這些公司背後的控制公司控股公司也必須接受"},{"start":410.64,"end":434.498,"text":"融資專法的管理比方說一樣對這個公司犯了錯誤背後的控制公司自然也應當受到罰還甚至 甚至一樣就是所有的處罰有刑罰的部分也能夠對背後的控股公司那網路不當的廣告啦那本來就應該限制"},{"start":435.499,"end":458.775,"text":"限制而且要移除他們在網頁繼續來使用那業務監督的上面我認為對於借貸金額的上限我認為對借貸的利率還有他們巧立名目很多啊他們巧立什麼違約金啦手續費貸辦費自納金講一大堆反正他就是高利貸就對了"},{"start":460.076,"end":479.463,"text":"那我認為利息也必須限制否則現在的亂象現在亂象到什麼程度他們公然跟貸款人說你去成立假的公司或者做假的買賣契約為什麼要做假的買賣契約假的買賣契約比比皆是因為"},{"start":480.8,"end":509.03,"text":"這些租賃公司 鼠貓三兄弟他要規避民法的重力罪要規避重力罪所以他就假的買賣契約所以一大堆的不必要的亂象跑了出來所以我認為當然在業務上要做對他們的除了行政監督也要做業務監督然後很重要的業務監督就是不得對第三人吹嗅也不得"},{"start":510.611,"end":529.949,"text":"委請討債公司那個那個 催收這一點非常重要這一點我甚至認為他們債權移轉都還必須主管機關同意否則他找討債公司他說我沒有違法啊我不知道他討債公司啊他說"},{"start":530.669,"end":544.727,"text":"我是轉 移轉債權的我販賣我這個債權欸 債權的移轉不需要債務人同意他不必告訴你債務人他債權人就 債權本來就可以移轉啦所以他移轉給他"},{"start":546.375,"end":563.055,"text":"討債公司所以各位我很沉動的舉出簡簡單單講這一些我要說的就是說台灣價值裡面除了我們有平等的工作權平等的教育權以外我們每一個國民要有平等的借貸權才對嘛"},{"start":564.717,"end":583.351,"text":"遭受借貸的業務光明磊落 銀行來借才對啊銀行如果說 你的信用不好 你沒有抵押品 你出出社會的話你是消費性貸款的話 可以你可以限制金額嘛 你可以提高利率嘛"},{"start":584.544,"end":608.067,"text":"貸款給需要者 本來就是銀行的責任啊銀行怎麼可以假借那一大堆理由假借那一大堆理由以後 結果放款了五千億光是薯條三兄弟就五千億大家想想看 這是多可怕 多麼可惡的罪行啊所以我希望 金管會醒一醒"},{"start":609.147,"end":634.037,"text":"銀行歸金管會管未來我認為這些融資租賃公司也應該歸金管會管金管會才有專業的金融監理人員你們才拿這些可惡的金融怪獸你才拿他們有辦法但是要有辦法之前我們就真的要先立這個辦法這個辦法就是融資租賃公司管理法好 謝謝主席好 謝謝黃偉銀"},{"start":636.738,"end":642.852,"text":"的發言 下面請台大的陳教授 陳兆鴻 陳教授 發言請"}]}},{"id":"161794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9eb7fbd39062e1d46dbbda46ccfe01665aad19b4ced7b4d8b3717ab8172553e855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:16:41 - 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各位親愛的家人 大家早安我們今日集在這裡就僅僅為了一場法律條文修訂的討論而是為了回應社會上一個媽媽心目中寶貝的生命"},{"start":40.714,"end":61.01,"text":"以及超過13萬公民這個不只是公民是13萬的家庭的痛在台灣3歲以下的兒童受逆案件逐年增加自從2019年至2023年"},{"start":66.209,"end":90.118,"text":"已經征服高達18.5%這些不只是冰冷的數據而是無數無誅的孩子的悲劇我們必須思考當一個社會無法用法律來保護最脆弱的成員這個社會的正義就在哪裡"},{"start":91.621,"end":119.971,"text":"我們要求努力徵定逆同制死罪並在刑度上設立有明確上限是最低底限的最重的處死刑最低不得是假釋之無期徒刑並非趨於明確"},{"start":122.163,"end":144.848,"text":"這個非情緒宣示而是基於一個理性法律系統對極端惡行因回應的必要補充從刑法的制度脈絡來看目前對於非肆意殺人但造成死亡犯罪例如"},{"start":146.048,"end":174.531,"text":"刑法第328條第3項的強盜之死罪即使無殺人犯意 據能依法判處此刑面對以持續系統性逆帶方式導致優而死亡的案件應有對等的刑責機制"},{"start":176.667,"end":196.263,"text":"比例原則並不是一套的記載化的組結標準而是一種社會共識與法律價值之間的 橫貧的工具當社會普遍認為 利同致死之類犯罪"},{"start":197.591,"end":222.337,"text":"其殘酷性與不可逆性的超越了社會可忍受的道德底線當人民要求國家應該用最嚴厲的手段防止未來同樣的憾事重演這本身就是比例原則最核心的思維基本"},{"start":223.61,"end":247.526,"text":"使刑法與犯罪的實質惡性被害人的脆弱性相對稱並回應社會對正義的呼聲在此狀況下入法務部就一句與比例原則不符就拒絕納入討論不僅是13萬"},{"start":254.005,"end":277.755,"text":"人連署還侵蝕了13萬的家庭更是對法律進一步的機制的背景法務部作為國家形式的政策組織機關應應民意的對話而非一味的固守法條的表面"},{"start":279.028,"end":305.738,"text":"否則社會將繼續懷疑法務法律居然是為誰來而設是否只保護施害者的程序權利卻永遠無法為受害者發聲我們今天所倡議的是希望通過明確這主力的立法的信號告訴社會"},{"start":307.906,"end":331.025,"text":"對於極端沒有人性的溺兒的行為國家不會容忍司法不會冷漠我們必須建立一道制度最後的防線讓這些砸害人知道溺殺無辜的幼兒不是會僅僅是一場幾年"},{"start":335.572,"end":355.581,"text":"行其可以贖罪的惡行而是對人性底線的挑戰必須最嚴厲的刑法應對並立法並不是為了保護而是為了讓社會記住這條法少體了生命少子化"},{"start":364.09,"end":390.86,"text":"孩子的生命是媽媽心目中的寶貝不只新聞的標誌更不是法治進步的引路燈今天我們不是不只是修修改法律我們要重建了社會對司法爭議的信任讓人民知道生命的寶貝讓大家知道"},{"start":392.383,"end":405.279,"text":"孩子是媽媽心目中的寶貝我們13萬的家庭呼應我們法務部呼應我們政府要重視我們一起努力全國的媽媽加油謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9a39de5ec1e7c53603ea4f37320387eacaad19b4ced7b4d8b604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:08:36 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大家好我想網路影片啊三道猴子的一生雖然已經上架兩年了但是我們只要談到融資公司的放款的亂象都還是會被人提起說這是為什麼那就是因為到現在都還沒有一個專法"},{"start":26.997,"end":45.03,"text":"來有效監管影片中所提到的那些真實的融資放款的問題更也已經造成無以數計的融資借貸的受害者其實在民國97年行政院就已經提出了融資公司法草案"},{"start":46.261,"end":71.288,"text":"並且在當年的2月4號將該草案送到我們立法院來審議但是因為同年爆發了金融海嘯因此這部專法的審議就不了了之了而我們到今天為止民間借貸的業務是越見普遍也因此而出現許多借貸的亂象我們看到一台價值才2萬元的機車"},{"start":74.414,"end":99.568,"text":"而且不是新車二手的現在可以借到30到40萬非常離譜也就是因為有許多類似這樣不合理的高利放貸或者超出常理的這種借貸交易造成我們非常多急需用錢的民眾反而掉入這些無盡的債務深淵之中"},{"start":100.769,"end":126.136,"text":"甚至還有融資公司的不肖業務員跟詐團來掛鉤聯手來詐幹我們這些事業者或者是我們的老人家以及一般的民眾以假借貸真詐財的方式來獲取不法的高額利息這種亂象以及不法的行為讓原本是提供民眾另一個借貸管道的通路"},{"start":129.622,"end":137.695,"text":"來解決他們這個燃煤之急的融資公司這個部分已經變成為嚴重的新型的一個債務源頭"},{"start":139.468,"end":160.095,"text":"但是我們來看金管會現在提出的解決方案是先將中租、育農、和潤以及日盛台郡4家上市集團下面的12家融資公司納入我們剛才講的金融保險金保法金融消費者保護法"},{"start":162.096,"end":174.585,"text":"來納管並授權相關執法修法來強化金融消費的保障也就是說金管會他還是不打算提出專法來監管以及解決融資公司借貸的種種問題"},{"start":176.807,"end":202.046,"text":"但我們看到這樣的做法能夠來解決本席所提到的各種融資借貸的不合理以及違規的亂象嗎能完善的保障我們民眾的權益嗎當然不行啊所以我們認為依照金管會的做法除了是緩不濟急以外也沒有辦法完整有效的解決融資借貸所延伸的金融消費問題"},{"start":203.666,"end":222.947,"text":"我們因為在二零一年通過的金保法他主要處理的是金融消費者所購買的金融商品以及服務的消費爭議事件尤其是針對延伸性的金融商品以及各類的保當商品因此金保法所設立的"},{"start":224.188,"end":242.568,"text":"依照金保法所設立的金融消費評議中心一直以來他們專注處理的是解決金融及保險糾紛面對我們這種更為複雜的融資公司的借款問題評議中心可以說是接觸的案例非常的少"},{"start":243.962,"end":262.143,"text":"所以我們也質疑說這個平均中心能夠去解決有能力解決這種融資借貸的問題嗎我們加上在金保法之下平均中心他所能決定的金融消費的一個糾紛的一個賠償額度最高就是120萬"},{"start":263.683,"end":273.638,"text":"而且最後還是要訴求法院就仰賴民事求商而關於我們中小企業戶的保障根本沒有辦法處理"},{"start":275.761,"end":297.255,"text":"若是再加上遇到融資的詐騙金保法絕對是不足以處理並監管這些融資公司所延伸的相關的問題所以即使金管會目前的做法可能是過度措施但是別忘了各種融資借貸的問題還是每天持續在上演"},{"start":299.038,"end":304.934,"text":"絕對不應該用這種過度的方式來解決這樣的問題所以一定要栗酸法來徹底解決"},{"start":306.195,"end":332.993,"text":"我們在國內我們看到當鋪業者有專法就當鋪業法虛擬資產我們現在也正在討論虛擬資產的服務法但我們最需要專法的融資公司業務卻到現在還沒有下落因此我要呼籲除了我們委員所提的版本以外行政院金管會也應該儘速提出相關的版本來回應"},{"start":335.536,"end":338.153,"text":"我們97年就有融資公司法的草案"},{"start":339.482,"end":367.624,"text":"可以作為參佐同時我們剛才有位學者也提到說外國的立法例比如日本的貸金業法英國也有消費信貸法所以我們盡快的重新的提出融資公司的專法以監管處理融資借貸的各種金融問題一來可以讓融資公司有法可循提供合理合法的融資管道給我們民眾二來也可以讓有需求的民眾"},{"start":369.165,"end":383.355,"text":"能夠在法律的保障之下來取得他所需要的資金來營造一個完善的融資環境提升我們國內金融市場以社會的安全與穩定以上好謝謝好謝謝理事委員的發言下一位請政大"}]}},{"id":"161799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9d60c0cb73c5002dddbbda46ccfe01665aad19b4ced7b4d8ba913c6d79a6ea1625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:43:15 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那請吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":7.591,"end":34.979,"text":"好我想今天我們排這個我排這個公聽會主要就是社會上面孽兒的事件越來越高那我自己在擔任警察官的時候我也非常痛恨這種對於未成年的幼童或者是對於老人或是對於有一些智障 身障的人你去欺負他們尤其是手腳健全的人去欺負一些手無縛肌之類的人像這種我覺得"},{"start":36.779,"end":47.633,"text":"從正義的角度去思考 從法治的角度去思考對這些人都完全不值得去放過他們我們應該在法治上面能夠給他們最大的懲罰"},{"start":50.063,"end":69.303,"text":"那我想我們從數據上面來看其實從19年到2023年這一段時間我們新生兒的人數一直在下降但是我們對於虐童的部分尤其是未滿3歲的幼兒的虐待這個反而數據是往上提升的"},{"start":69.904,"end":88.81,"text":"那你能想像說對一個小孩子他可能連燙是什麼都搞不清楚的情況下那你卻對他虐待你卻拿東西去燙他等等的這個作為有時候我們都難以想像那我想在座非常多人都是為人父母啊那我們小朋友小時候他打個噴嚏咳嗽個兩聲我們都擔心得要命"},{"start":92.131,"end":102.922,"text":"那你能想像如果說今天他是在外面受到有某些人對他去施以身體上面凌虐或精神上面的凌虐你身為一個父母你是什麼樣的心情"},{"start":103.874,"end":131.796,"text":"那更何況我們講人不獨子其子啊每個小孩都是我們要去愛護不管他是誰的小孩那李韻大同篇就跟我們講過這句話所以我們對於每一個小孩不管他是誰的小孩我們都要盡全力去保護他我想這是我們每一個身為成年人我們的義務不管男女不管你今天的想法國籍黨派等等的我們就是要保護這些未成年人更何況啊以我自己第一線的司法實務經驗"},{"start":133.854,"end":161.848,"text":"黑數一定更多有更多的小朋友他不知道怎麼樣去表達或是很多父母他不知道怎麼樣去求爭取這些救援所以有更多的犯罪黑數我們沒看到那在現有已經曝光的事情來看就有這麼多的案子這麼多讓我們那種不忍心再看下去的事情所以我想說我們大家都身為爸爸媽媽我們很能夠知道"},{"start":163.258,"end":189.051,"text":"愛護小孩子的那種感覺很多時候我們甚至你有我看到小孩子發燒在那邊很難過一直在哭我都希望去承擔他的這個痛苦所以我常跟很多人講我說如果我有99條命的話我會願意為我兒子死100次這是每一個父母對小孩子的感覺那所以我覺得今天我在社會上面我們更要去保護這些小孩"},{"start":190.526,"end":218.226,"text":"那我想這次有關虐童案件的修法的連署那社會上面有13萬人那當然我個人是這樣子我覺得任何公共議題本來就會有正反不同的想法各種公共議題都是如此所以當各種公共議題大家提出來的時候是值得討論的尤其是專業的機關譬如說法務部 譬如說司法院像剛剛黃國昌委員說的絕對不能有專業的傲慢"},{"start":218.766,"end":244.759,"text":"而是你必須停下腳步來聽聽人民的聲音那多溝通就我剛剛說的公共政策一定是有贊成有反對那這時候就是坐下來好好的溝通去找出一個平衡點或是最大的公約數那這時候我們就可以來去進行相關的修法而不是墨守成規而不是像法務部一開始就是拒絕跟外界溝通當然我知道後來部長有出來緩暇有出來說"},{"start":247.56,"end":277.26,"text":"他會再研議嘛那部長當然後來有做這樣的想法但是一開始的那個的反應其實是讓非常多的社會團體以及非常多的父母很不滿無法接受我想還是要麻煩法務部以及司法院能夠拜託知道這個點不能有專業的傲慢真的要聽聽外界在想什麼更何況法律法律是解決社會問題的一個東西嘛是我們人類生存在這個社會上面大家遵守的所以"},{"start":278.8,"end":291.745,"text":"所以今天不要拿法律的設計怎麼樣來強制要求人民你只能聽我們專業法律者對於法律的解釋我覺得這是不對的 絕對是不對的"},{"start":295.819,"end":320.965,"text":"所以我還是在這邊以民意代表的身份我還是希望喊話我們的政府機關在面對這種極端惡行的情況下真的要給社會一個回應因為司法已經是最後一道防線了我不可能要求每個人都有高尚的道德但是我至少可以卑微的要求大家守法吧至少可以卑微要求大家守法"},{"start":322.762,"end":352.083,"text":"那訂出一個對於未成年人一些因誘而能夠給他們保障的法律這不就是我們的責任嗎那如果說現在的政府一直在那邊說這個框架之下認為說這虐童虐待致死後面那個致死是過失致死他不是有殺人的故意你一直存在這個框架之下那你怎麼跟人民去溝通更何況我國還有刑法328條第三項的規範不是毫無這樣子的司法設計的例子嗎"},{"start":353.41,"end":369.62,"text":"所以我還是蠻希望說政府不要站在人民的對立面你聽聽人民在想什麼再怎麼樣人民是最大我們是民主國家所以請法務部 請司法院還是要"},{"start":370.953,"end":396.153,"text":"注意這個點那對於這次的修法 我覺得我有幾個角度 我想提供來給大家參考我覺得第一個就是說 我剛提到 一再三提到的這個社會共識 它會隨著時間在變化請大家一定要注意 所有的東西不是一成不變所有的法制 也都是在看 怎麼樣去適合這個社會上面的需求"},{"start":397.908,"end":421.83,"text":"這個非常的重要那第二個呢我要提到的就是我剛剛講了刑法328條第三項已經有財產犯罪的強盜致死的時候的死刑規範並不是我國的法治毫無這樣子的規定所以當有這樣子的規範存在的時候然後你又跟我講說現行法治不行比例原則不行"},{"start":423.188,"end":439.739,"text":"那再怎麼樣寧願他還是對於生命身體法義耶那你財產法義都可以做這樣的規範了那為什麼保護密度要更高的生命身體法義你卻認為不需要這樣規範我覺得這個就完全不合理這也不是法律的基本概念"},{"start":440.64,"end":469.682,"text":"那我覺得很多時候我們看犯罪的情節輕重也不是說只看主觀範囲啦你也要看被害者他們的狀況是怎麼樣小朋友他毫無反擊之力啊他甚至連自己被凌虐被侵害他都搞不清楚他以為這就是人生因為他才小他什麼都不懂所以更需要我們知道我們懂的人下去用力的保護他那剛剛其實理事長以及那個劉教授教育理事長劉教授都有提到"},{"start":470.919,"end":495.16,"text":"未必故意這個概念我也是想說因為畢竟我們現在已經是廢止那個判例的制度了嘛那我們都是尊重每一個個案法官檢察官的獨立判斷但是至少在教育訓練的時候在教育訓練的時候是不是可以把這個概念能夠告訴全國的法官檢察官"},{"start":496.82,"end":523.614,"text":"很多時候是不是他可能他是符合未必故意的這個邏輯而不是一律就是凌虐致死因為你今天跟一般我們刑法上面傷害致死有一點不太一樣很多時候你對成年人的傷害這個成年人他已經是一個發育完全身體的那個那個抵抗力等等的都是發育完全的他跟一個小朋友不一樣啊小朋友甚至連自己受傷要打電話叫救護車求救他也不會"},{"start":524.966,"end":552.141,"text":"那這個時候是不是你有可以去思考到未必故意的這個概念而選擇的是271條所以這個是值得我們去思考的一個點但是因為我們不可能干涉個案所以這個可以落實在日常的教育訓練裡面再告訴法官檢察官你在審理案件的時候其實你還有另外一個思考的模式因為未必故意它是我國的法律制度的一部分嘛"},{"start":552.941,"end":566.37,"text":"它是我國存在的東西所考的過司法官考試人他一定懂我在講什麼那師父可以在教育訓練裡面放入這個概念他今天他等同於殺人罪了喔他不是一個凌虐後的過失致死"},{"start":568.172,"end":585.961,"text":"所以這兩個東西我想說還是必須要呼籲我們的政府機關能夠思考一下這個地方因為很多時候你要正視人民的聲音你要換位去思考而不是很多事情你造成民怨的一直問題很多了然後才來這邊"},{"start":587.822,"end":597.707,"text":"一堆麻煩那我也蠻認同剛剛那個蔡卓恩檢察官他所提到的一個點也是我們現在社會一直迴避的一個點就是我們忘記告訴大家"},{"start":598.926,"end":623.233,"text":"為什麼 為什麼 像譬如說為什麼我這次會提出一個反對那個死刑一字決的這個公投為什麼會提出這個 其實就是因為那個一字決有問題嘛那像剛剛蔡主任檢察官他有提到一個點就是六個國民法官加兩個專業法官大家認為要判死刑結果會被一個專業法官認為不要判死刑而全盤推翻"},{"start":624.173,"end":648.99,"text":"那這個也是我國現行制度的一個大問題那如果這樣子下去那也會像剛剛有專家學者說會不會我們立了一個法律一個死刑在那裡但是實務上面卻完全無法適用這個將來有可能會發生完全不可能有這樣的死刑判決的結果出現我想這個都是我們要去注意到的啦更何況廢死這個概念除了是"},{"start":650.987,"end":675.649,"text":"那個執政黨黨綱之外他常也引用兩公約但兩公約對於這個何謂最嚴重之罪卻到現在也都沒有一個明確的說法所以我想我們點出了這些問題不管怎麼樣我覺得最終我的目的還是一個不管今天你的國籍為何你的性別為何你的政治傾向為何保護幼童"},{"start":677.017,"end":705.632,"text":"是我們的最大公約數一定我們要盡全力去做到所以當一個政府啊我們這個政府的社會福利制度等等無法保障未成年的小朋友這些幼童無端被殺死的時候你至少要確保這些行為人在做完這些壞事之後政府司法制度有辦法對他是一個相當的刑度例如終身監禁或死刑"},{"start":706.687,"end":735.873,"text":"我覺得這個是有它存在的必要性所以今天我們還開這個公聽會我覺得這個公聽會也是我一直以來我從當立法委員以來我一直希望的就是保障弱勢因為我其實我很多次我公開講我說李韻大同篇的那幾句話影響我這輩子非常深我覺得啊你一定要做到勞有所終壯有所用幼有所長關寡孤獨廢棄者皆有所養這個東西就是老中青"},{"start":737.307,"end":749.469,"text":"小孩子保護他讓他平安長大青壯年人讓他有工作老人讓他能夠安享晚年社會弱勢殘疾者我們要讓他能夠有好的生活"},{"start":750.908,"end":777.51,"text":"幾千年前的人就告訴我們這個為什麼我們今天還做不到所以我一直很堅持在修法上面以及我做任何事情上面一定要圍繞著這個邏輯去轉所以我才會今天安排這個公聽會不然在很多法律制度都還需要修正的時候我們還是希望這個公聽會非常的重要要為小朋友發聲要為社會團體發聲這是我一直以來我的想法好 謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"161814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f95704f74e75928da3dbbda46ccfe01665b229dfd5e6d71d20444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:07:51 - 11:13:14","影片長度":"00:05:23","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會（事由：「回應民意，虐童刑責法制總檢討」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T11:07:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T11:13:14+08:00","duration":323,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.27971875,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.15096875,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.59284375,"end":281.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.30346875000004,"end":319.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.51659375,"end":322.09034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.311,"end":1.552,"text":"那我們呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":15.622,"end":31.437,"text":"主席還有我們與會的學者專家列席的官員還有我們的立委同仁大家好近年屢見家庭暴力與虐童案件那麼社會大眾是非常關注根據內政部統計資料過去十年"},{"start":32.378,"end":44.324,"text":"有261位的兒童跟少年遭肆虐死亡其中父母照顧者等家庭成員不當對待致死是235人依契約或職務對兒少有照顧義務之人不當對待"},{"start":48.826,"end":63.887,"text":"致死者為26人因此在朝野共識之下刑法286條在113年7月16日三讀通過增加對虐童案件的刑罰力度但是仍然沒有納入死刑"},{"start":65.708,"end":88.396,"text":"從數據來看去年一整年家內受虐致死兒童跟少年是30位這是9年來的新高那如果以7月16日做區分換言之在修法之後家外受虐致死人數3位其中兩起是嚴重虐待 一起是嚴重疏忽反而比修法前的0位還高"},{"start":89.156,"end":105.469,"text":"所以可以看出現有刑度還沒有達到社會期待來去有效遏止這類事件的發生那麼以凱凱案來說最近有兩位加害者保姆一位被判無期徒刑另外一位被判18年有期徒刑"},{"start":106.189,"end":129.418,"text":"但是依照現在刑法的七十七條規定被判無期徒刑要服刑二十五年才能假釋而十八年則是二分之一九年就可以假釋這會出現同一件虐因案的加害人那麼他的實際服刑的程度會差非常多所以目前無論是刑度是不是要增加死刑以及限縮"},{"start":130.638,"end":148.424,"text":"所謂的虐因犯的假釋規定這都是社會這一波我們非常關注的議題那我自己就有分別提案有的已經一讀包括刑法286條針列死刑那有的還在連述當中刑法77條虐因被判有期徒刑不得假釋"},{"start":149.264,"end":164.694,"text":"那麼今天部會報告裡面有沒有看到司法院是反對增列死刑但認為可以增加無期徒刑有期徒刑不得假釋那法務部則認為增列死刑有研議空間那也同樣支持增加無期徒刑有期徒刑不得假釋"},{"start":165.578,"end":192.477,"text":"那我是認為不同的意見也就是死刑這一塊可以再來透過我們的公聽會來聽聽學者專家跟受害者家屬的聲音那繼續來去推動修法但是不管怎麼樣講至少針對有共識的不得假釋修法應該要盡速的來推動那尤其是法務部的部分我在質詢時已經提醒過鄭明謙部長那也獲得正面回應"},{"start":193.357,"end":209.707,"text":"希望法務部可以提版本 儘速送到立法院來不要像棄保潛逃跟防害司法公正罪一樣法務部一方面說版本已經送給行政院然後行政院又踢皮球說還在審議就讓立法院等了又等都等不到版本來審"},{"start":210.908,"end":225.005,"text":"那這陣子在談刑法286條增列死刑時司法院法務部還有很多執政黨委員都說要審慎不宜變動審慎當然是要審慎但也必須提醒刑法286條並不是一個經常被使用的條文"},{"start":228.149,"end":255.934,"text":"在2015年到2024年這過去十年當中以地方法院審理的案件來說只有兩年是一件違反280有兩年甚至是一件違反286條裁判都沒有那平均一年是5.7件而這十年當中也有只有一件被判無期徒刑那十年的98件罪次裡面被判五年以上有期徒刑占18件比例不到兩成"},{"start":256.894,"end":280.2,"text":"一年以下則是53件 比例是5乘4當然不是每一件都是重大的虐待兒童或少女但可能是輕傷但從刑度來講 社會大眾對於這次刑度的期待是相距甚遠所以因此 這也是為什麼我們今天來從刑度來重新整體的檢討那最後 虐童案件"},{"start":281.68,"end":305.217,"text":"層出不窮 法治如果沒有跟上 等不到正義那麼將會是有更多無辜兒童的生命遭到剝奪那修法針對死刑大概在討論 但針對有期徒刑不得假釋的共識已經形成那政府這部分應該即刻啟動不要讓行政部門的怠惰 遲疑變成保護加害人的盾牌"},{"start":305.717,"end":319.088,"text":"那對於虐嬰加害人應該要有應對的一個司法制裁這是社會基本的正義底線也是對受害家庭最起碼的交代那保護孩子我們的立法不能等 感謝"}]}},{"id":"161800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9a7b5a008633205353ea4f37320387eacaad19b4ced7b4d8b22026100640eea3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:51:25 - 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沒有專法來管理融資公司運作還有代辦業務所以今天我們要討論融資公司法其實監察院也注意到這個問題了所以在今年的四月份監察院有糾正財政部"},{"start":110.783,"end":137.342,"text":"不過監財院糾正財政部主要是說公股銀行以低於民銀行的利率大量增加放緩給融資租賃公司那成為輿論質疑說融資租賃公司利差過大的因素那這是糾正的主要原因但是監財院提到說近年來融資租賃業者以先買後付中古車貸款等融資方式引起國人購買各類型的商品"},{"start":137.842,"end":160.208,"text":"那也造成說大量年輕人呢甚至學生呢以此類的模式進行消費那除了引起財務問題之外呢產生了過度消費的疑慮所以呢監察院呢也要求了這個行政院呢確實評估訂定融資租賃公司的專法還有指定呢業務機關的可行性那其實金管會也算是有正面的回應那這個從這個主委的談話來提到說這個"},{"start":166.409,"end":186.069,"text":"會透過金融消費者保護法 金保法分三階段納管融資租賃公司最快是在8月底上路第一階段是4家上市櫃的公司第二階段是國營轉投資的14家租賃公司第三階段是所有租賃公會的會員"},{"start":187.651,"end":212.833,"text":"那但是呢 這也會造成一些原因就是說 如果你是用這個金保法來講的話其實剛剛先進也都提過金保法當時的這個產生的原因 制定的原因是因為衍生性金融商品的購買糾紛那如果說你要讓它來解決目前這個融資租賃的一些相關的一些爭議的話那恐怕這個是沒有真正針對這個藥方"},{"start":214.634,"end":232.231,"text":"所以金寶法或許可以作為暫時過渡的一個措施但是絕對不是長久之計長久之計本席還是認為說應該要制定專法但專法要怎麼樣制定我想專家學者也有提出非常寶貴的一些建議那我也再提到就是說"},{"start":234.677,"end":262.492,"text":"監察院他也提到如果是按照目前金管會所提出來這個三階段的這個納管那有可能這個會造成說這個有相同就是規模比較小的這些融資租賃公司他們承作融資業務屬性相近但是呢他並沒有納管造成相同業務拿相同風險具有不同監理的情況那所以呢是不是應該要有這一個相關的配套措施那本席也認為說"},{"start":264.395,"end":279.661,"text":"目前有一些造成一些爭議性的一些原因在此那是不是有一些可以及時先來做的呢第一個就是說是不是先建立一個融資公司的聯合爭議性的一個系統然後避免說這個"},{"start":281.702,"end":310.297,"text":"借款人其實已經有借貸了但是呢這個租賃公司他也沒有去查那造成說這個債務人他變成以債養債那是不是可以先建立一個聯合的一個徵信的系統那第二個呢那是不是我們要透過這個融資透明申報制度然後明確揭示借貸利率的手續費然後禁止變相的高額代辦費的剝削然後第三呢那是不是我們要補強公司法的相關的規定"},{"start":311.517,"end":327.273,"text":"避免假買賣增借貸的一個漏洞那本席也是建議說這個金保法它雖然是這個在目前為止是專法出來之前的一個過渡的一個時期但是呢畢竟如果還是要這個"},{"start":328.795,"end":348.575,"text":"長治久安來解決這相關的問題還是以立專法為優先那至於要怎麼立 怎麼樣的完善我相信透過今天的公聽會這個金管會應該會有更多的一些啟示那以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝李委員的發言現在請李燕秀委員發言請"}]}},{"id":"161801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f97baeaddacf1e2ce73ea4f37320387eacb229dfd5e6d71d207439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:57:25 - 11:03:21","影片長度":"00:05:56","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次公聽會（事由：召開「融資公司法」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T10:57:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T11:03:21+08:00","duration":356,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":233.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.86784375000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.94534375,"end":262.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.62284375,"end":270.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.29659375,"end":273.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.69284375,"end":275.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.12284375,"end":324.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.46971875,"end":345.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.95971875000004,"end":352.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.24159375000005,"end":354.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.26659375,"end":355.80659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.429,"end":15.881,"text":"在現場說產官學界感謝大家這個公聽會也特別感謝朝偉今天舉辦這樣的公聽會事實上在金款會在4月底4月23號已經針對於12家租賃公司未來適用金保法第三條第一項金融服務業務未來無論是應收賬款還有包括收買分期付款的買賣或相關的融資性的業務都適用金保法的規定我們也預計在8月底"},{"start":29.391,"end":49.429,"text":"9月最慢的9月底消費者跟12家融資公司進行業務往來未來都有機會獲得更充分的保障這是我們金管會的一小步但是這卻是我們金融消費業者的保護對於消費者的保護落實我們普惠金融很重要的一步一大步"},{"start":50.209,"end":55.512,"text":"我們目前台灣有超過8000多家業者從事應收賬款的買賣包括分期付款買賣或者是具類似融資性業務相關的業務我們也期待未來金管會未來能夠擴大金保法適用業者的數量因為這一次你們分三個層次只有12家未來提供消費者未來可以適用擴大服務的這個相關的一些相關的業者"},{"start":76.664,"end":88.535,"text":"那至於未來是不是要訂定專法對於整個租賃業的樣態進行規範我了解的是我們目前金管會會委託評估研究甚至會累積監理的經驗採取雙軌並行的方式來進行"},{"start":92.699,"end":114.651,"text":"所以除了委託銀行公會針對專法進行研究評估報告外我們也會持續累積監理的經驗作為未來專法的依據在這邊我非常肯定彭主委跟報告整個經管會對於無論是跟產官學界的溝通還有跟這個公會的溝通也都非常充分"},{"start":115.251,"end":128.377,"text":"讓我們這一次在訂定金保法的過程當中其實我們的時程掌握得非常順利未來我們也希望金管會在制定專法的過程當中可以多傾聽銀行業者包括租賃業者、消費者"},{"start":131.658,"end":136.56,"text":"學界的聲音這四大塊的聲音特別是從事營收賬款的買賣還有包括分期付款買賣還有包括具類似融資業務的樣態我們大家都知道其實非常非常的多8000多家的業者服務的樣態其實非常非常的廣泛特別是業者的經營方式有時候時常跟著大環境的變化時常在轉變"},{"start":156.229,"end":169.818,"text":"所以又有超過8000多家的業者未來如何用一部專法來進行通案的管理恐怕需要有更多的規劃跟評估所以這絕對不是只有一場我們的公聽會未來我也期待金管會也好或者是產官學界大家可以多辦幾場不同的公聽會立法院當然也可以多辦可以廣納更多的意見來制定專法"},{"start":184.349,"end":189.295,"text":"這樣未來八千多家業者相關業態的業者都進入納管我們的規範才有機會更完整所以在現階段我有三個期許跟盼望第一個就是金管會未來能擴大金保法的納管的範圍包括租賃公會的業者"},{"start":203.012,"end":214.4,"text":"未來是不是都能夠納入監理讓我們的消費者可以有更多的保障對於主動願意納入金保法規範的租賃業者我覺得我上次也提過金管會應該認證或公告告訴消費者"},{"start":218.423,"end":233.298,"text":"他們有加入我們金寶法的規範他們是乖寶寶好學生我覺得這個對消費者也有一定的保障所以副主委在這邊點頭我覺得好寶寶乖學生有更多的保障是我們在金寶法規範的範圍我們就讓消費者知道有需求有需要"},{"start":233.999,"end":249.773,"text":"就應該盡量找他們這樣也會讓還沒有加入的業者更願意加入那第二點我的期望就是未來融資公司在乘坐個人金融業務的時候恐怕都會更謹慎那很多業務他們可能就不願意"},{"start":250.987,"end":272.897,"text":"意願不會那麼高不願意做那我們更擔心的是會不會有一些消費者轉向地下金融的借貸反而地下金融的借貸特別在整個財務不太好的時候很多地下金融的那種借貸方式就會興起會不會有更多的金融的風暴跟風險這個恐怕是金管會要"},{"start":273.757,"end":300.568,"text":"告訴我我們要怎麼預防這個是第二點我希望我提出來這三點你們都可以用書面的回應我那第三個對於首批納管的12家租賃業者我也期待大家可以用更健康的心態來看待金保法的監管有更明確的法律規範不僅也可以鼓勵公司內部加強內控的機制更可以洗刷外界就是一竿子打翻所有人的汙名跟誤解"},{"start":302.669,"end":323.682,"text":"創造未來創造業者消費者跟政府的三贏是我這三點我覺得我們應該想辦法去做的那我這三點是不是也可以拜託金管會告訴我未來我們怎麼預防那我們怎麼樣加強那做得好的或者是在金管會納管的我們是不是要讓外界知道那怎麼樣防避有一些"},{"start":324.662,"end":345.438,"text":"轉到地下去做地下的這個借貸那你們怎麼去做這些房幣因為有一些很就是有一些他們可能不願意做那未來銀行業要不要做那你們會不會鼓勵做他們不願意做的話那銀行業是不是要協助做有這些需求恐怕都是我希望你們可以回復我的地方謝謝好 謝謝李委員的發言下一位請"},{"start":353.311,"end":355.606,"text":"林某祥教授"}]}},{"id":"161818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9195a005400159a73dbbda46ccfe01665b229dfd5e6d71d203d6cc5b51f0f3cef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:35:17 - 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謝謝主席五分鐘嘛好 我是培餘過往我在兒童人權的領域工作也在兒童文化出版還有家庭教育所以今天我們既然要談所謂修法的法制總檢討那我今天所要談的就不會只有刑法等一下我會談到民法的1085條還有兒童工作證這件事情也就是說我們在修法之外所有的行政措施還有所有的配套"},{"start":26.71,"end":52.558,"text":"我認為也要一併的討論那今天要先謝謝所有願意出席的專家學者給我們寶貴的意見我相信在後續的修法當中大家的意見都非常非常的重要首先我們來看一下刑法修正的部分那目前我們看了所有司法法制委員會各個黨派的委員所提出來的刑法修正草案目前大概有幾個方向第一個無歧途刑不得假釋第二個虐童致死得以處以死刑"},{"start":52.978,"end":81.905,"text":"第三个修订加重其行至二分之一的年龄界限当我们看了这些版本之后我们再问除了这些事情之外我们还可以做什么或者是我们也可以再问这些就真的能够解决儿虐事件频传的问题吗我认为所有的修法都可以理性的讨论但是过去在面对儿虐相关事件通常第一时间大家的反应都是谈修正刑法调高刑度的方法来回应"},{"start":82.885,"end":98.221,"text":"所谓的民意但我认为除了刑法修正之外所有法规范的配套都必须要一并的讨论才能够促成而虐案可以不要一再的发生那为什么会这么说我来举一个例子我们来看刑法286的修法脉络"},{"start":100.143,"end":120.805,"text":"在一零八年修法新增了第三項第四項有關於加重結果犯的規定到了一一三年又再加重修法到第五項虐待七歲以下兒童加重期刑到二分之一但是呢我們來看凱凱案是在一一二年的年底發生的時間點當時就是用無期徒刑加重結果的時間點"},{"start":122.347,"end":139.162,"text":"认为大家认为调整行动也许可以遏止犯罪但我要说效果一定有限刚刚有一位先进提到在修法后而虐事件还是数字上升也就是说修法到底回应了民意的什么"},{"start":139.462,"end":165.913,"text":"或者是修法又漏回應了什麼我認為在後續的討論一定要持續進行因為如果只是一昧的加重刑責沒有相關的法規範沒有相關資源的配套協助所有人甚至全台灣沒有一個共識叫做不要打小孩不要虐待小孩如果這樣的概念沒有辦法深入每一個台灣人的心中那所有的不幸事件都會一再的發生"},{"start":166.673,"end":183.718,"text":"回过来看我刚讲第二个部分谈了刑法之后我想要谈民法1085条我们来看民法1085条这件事情我手上有一个数字我们来看下一张卫福部保护司我们跟你们调了一个资料叫做儿少保护失虐者"},{"start":185.063,"end":213.246,"text":"我再一次强调是施虐者的人数统计资料那办公室的同仁非常辛苦把这个资料整理出来第一栏是养父母或是父母第二栏是手足外祖父母或祖父母其他亲属还有同居人以上我们把它叫做所谓的家内虐儿大家可以看到从2019到2024年家内虐儿几乎占了所有当年虐儿一半以上的数字什么意思"},{"start":214.026,"end":222.599,"text":"當我們在看凱凱案的時候當我們以為是保姆促成了這個兒女案讓大家痛心的時候大家不要忘記一半以上的數字是發生在家內"},{"start":224.455,"end":244.943,"text":"廣泛的家內所以為什麼要談民法1085條也就是當大家所在意的兒虐零容忍這件事情沒有觀看到這個數字我們應該回頭想我們漏了什麼所以我要再次強調當我們談兒虐零容忍的時候請不要區分家內跟家外"},{"start":245.863,"end":270.518,"text":"當我們願意認真的面對這個務實的現況的時候我們才知道後續我們還可以做什麼事情所以為什麼每年430我都要呼籲大家所謂430國際不打小孩日並不是只是叫你在這一天不要打小孩而是從這一天開始練習不要打小孩也可以管教小孩不要打小孩也可以教養小孩我們可以透過各式各樣的行動"},{"start":271.238,"end":298.948,"text":"透過正向教養的倡議透過用愛心取代打罵透過如何學習跟孩子溝通這都是我們大人可以做的事情而這樣的教養觀念回應到法制化正式民法1085條的規定也就是把原來的規定修正為以下的規定叫做父母保護以及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女的人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為"},{"start":300.268,"end":327.876,"text":"我自己也提出修法的版本了當然法務部應該也有版本我要提醒的是依照現行的民法1085的規定家長在教養子女的時候本來就不應該我要再次強調本來就不應該做出會對子女造成身心傷害的行為我的提案版本或者是法務部已經有的版本就是想要把這個精神這個概念給明文化彰顯不要讓孩子受到身心暴力虐待的決心"},{"start":329.276,"end":358.052,"text":"但是有了這個決心跟這個法制化後到底配套行為會是什麼或是配套的法制配套的規範又是什麼其實剛剛也有很多專家學者或是民間朋友有提到所以我要再次強調除了剛剛說的刑法民法1085也要拜託大家一起關心從這個數字我們再次強調一半以上的兒虐案件是來自於所謂廣義的家內兒虐接下來我要談第三個重要的事情就是"},{"start":358.952,"end":378.362,"text":"所有跟孩子們一起工作的大人們樣態非常多元不會只有保姆未來我們有運動教練現在其實也有還有學校的教師各式各樣的社區運動人員或者是夏立穎東立穎裡面這些老師或者是協助孩子的社工協助孩子的心理師這些"},{"start":380.263,"end":404.058,"text":"過往都曾經傳出所謂不適任人員對於孩子們不當的體罰或是性侵性騷不當的對待很多很多的案件都展現出現在台灣這個社會很多大人對於孩子是不夠理解的對於孩子福利是不夠支持不夠全面的所以過往我們在辦公室工作的範圍當中我們也跟很多民間團體共同倡議推廣兒童工作證"},{"start":405.138,"end":420.263,"text":"而兒童工作證這件事情之所以困難是來自於大家觀念還沒有建立再來一旦兒童工作證真的要成立那如何讓更多的人是被包括在這個範圍以內但是因為這件事情還在路上"},{"start":420.723,"end":436.013,"text":"所以在那之前我們辦公室做了很多的事情我也要拜託大家未來可以一起關心也就是目前有非常多資料庫都可以標示出所有的不適任現場工作人員包含司法單位、社福單位、教育單位都有這些資料庫"},{"start":436.693,"end":459.569,"text":"但這些資料庫他可能不是對所有人公開透明他也不見得適合對所有人公開透明甚至資料庫之間是沒有勾結的所以當你的孩子發展到不同的階段需要跟不同的大人有所接觸的時候我們就要回過來看這些資料庫裡面是不是真的可以回應到大家想要找一個安全可以陪伴小孩的大人在我們小孩的身邊"},{"start":460.249,"end":482.029,"text":"所以这些资料库的勾迹在过去两年我们办公室的工作当中我们很努力促成资料库之间的勾迹还有资料库的公开透明确保在不同的生活跟教育场域当中陪伴孩子的每一个大人都是适任的而且是适当的包含我刚刚举的这些例子而这个儿童工作证我们也很开心听到卫福部在五月初告诉我们"},{"start":482.389,"end":507.532,"text":"未來目前在兒少全法修法的過程當中已經納入相關兒少全法當中我們很期待後續入法之後相關的配套跟行政資源也可以陸續上路談了這麼多我要謝謝主席今天舉辦這個公聽會讓我們有機會再次檢視不管是刑法修正或者是我剛剛說的民法1085或是兒童工作證或者是剛剛所有先進所提的這些事情確實可以讓"},{"start":508.433,"end":524.874,"text":"這個社會對於兒少的保護更加的全面但是我也要再次呼籲一再的提高刑責惡組犯罪的成效當然需要更多的研究跟討論但所有的配套也非常非常的重要它絕對不會只有落在刑法的修正以上謝謝 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法務部次長徐次長檢察司長張司長衛福部保護司司長張司長法務部矯正署林副署長司法院刑事廳理廳長"},{"start":2144.013,"end":2171,"text":"司法院少家庭廳長、中庭廳長內政部防治組科長、陳科長刑事局林科長中華民國生命平權協會理事朱理事提示人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱"},{"start":2173.43,"end":2179.716,"text":"回應民意 虐童刑責法制總檢討 公聽會討論提綱1."},{"start":2179.716,"end":2185,"text":"虐視兒童相關刑責法制是否有測定之處?1."},{"start":2185,"end":2199.253,"text":"現行刑法第328條對於犯強盜罪因而致人於死者最高亦可判處死刑則為滿7歲之人其自我保護及反抗之能力遠低於強盜罪之被害人是否參考刑法第328條"},{"start":2200.734,"end":2226.871,"text":"提升幼童凌虐致死者之最高刑度為死刑 括弧二因應刑法第286條第五項之增定無期徒刑如何再加重是否應增列不得假釋 括弧三依公民與政治權利國際公約第六條第二項規範禁止各締約國將情節非最重大之罪判處死刑為所指情節罪"},{"start":2228.132,"end":2248.18,"text":"重大之罪是否限於直接故意殺人而排除間接故意殺人罪二每每發生虐視兒童案件均會引起社會公憤若行為人判處無期徒刑一定期間後即可假釋是否應全面檢討無期徒刑法制可否增列不得假釋三"},{"start":2248.9,"end":2268.066,"text":"虐童案件多疑有期徒刑論處例如2015年花蓮發生情侶以七大酷刑虐待三歲女童致死案於2017年經法院判處13年6月徒刑確定為實際警服刑六年於即經法務部矯正署核准假釋現行虐童遭判"},{"start":2268.886,"end":2292.659,"text":"有歧途刑治案件,多能因假釋制度而減少實際刑期,是否應檢討有歧途刑,增列不得假釋之規定?4.被害人參與刑事訴訟後,是否應有獨立上訴權、結問權、證據調查申請權,包括刑事訴訟法、國民法官法、少年事件處理法相關法制應如何擴充?"},{"start":2293.639,"end":2305.212,"text":"以完整保障被害人訴訟權益 括弧一女童案之被害人年紀尚輕如何保障其訴訟上權益 括弧二非幼童之被害人是否應擴充上開相關訴訟上權益 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2311.598,"end":2332.588,"text":"好 謝謝在邀請各位發言之前我們先就公定會進行程序的說明首先我們會請專家學者學者專家發言發言的順序依據簽到的先後順序那如果需要提前發言就請先通知主席台那我們會視情況予以調整"},{"start":2333.188,"end":2350.659,"text":"那本院的委員按照登記先後順序發言那如果陸續到場等席會穿插安排請委員發言最後我們再請政府機關代表發言針對學者專家及委員的意見加以回應那與會者就請到發言台的"},{"start":2352.663,"end":2379.825,"text":"發言台右邊這個是學者專家跟機關練習代表的發言台那左邊這個是委員的發言台那由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家的意見所以每位學者專家發言時間為10分鐘那本院委員發言時間為5分鐘首先我們請學者專家發言第一位我們請林志傑教授發言"},{"start":2387.706,"end":2409.563,"text":"親愛的召委 各位專家學者 各位部會代表的長官還有我們立法院的同仁 大家早安 大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的林志傑老師那麼同時我也是法務部刑法修正小組的成員不過我要先聲明今天以下的發言是以專家學者跟我個人還有一個母親的立場來回應這個刑法328條等相關的問題"},{"start":2413.706,"end":2437.647,"text":"不代表法務部刑法修正小組全體委員的意見謝謝首先謝謝大家的邀請那這是一個令人感到非常沉重而且心碎的主題那麼由於我國的憲法法庭大法官已經針對我國到底要不要廢死做出解釋也就是在現行法下大法官的做法是慎死而不廢死因此我們確實有這個討論"},{"start":2440.209,"end":2462.747,"text":"我國刑法分責相關的條文或者是特殊刑法有沒有增修死刑的空間和先續名那麼針對今天立法院所給的提綱我大概分成兩個部分來做討論第一個部分是就法制的嚴格跟法制的革新部分第二個由於相關的重大矚目案件凱凱案已經有一審的判決"},{"start":2463.507,"end":2481.884,"text":"所以我們可以針對這個個案的一審判決來進行討論首先針對相關的這個條文是不是應該做一個處理或者是在刑度上面做調整我個人從過去到現在的立場跟憲法法庭是一致的就是慎死而不費死"},{"start":2482.765,"end":2503.568,"text":"在我過去的論註跟言論中我認為在兩種極端的狀況應該可以允許刑事法規保有死刑的裁量空間第一種狀況是它對生命法益是多數的而且是故意的造成了傷亡比如說我們可以看到的"},{"start":2504.669,"end":2519.322,"text":"這個東京這個奧姆真理教他在地下鐵裡面施放毒氣造成多人的死亡或者是911的恐攻他用這個飛機去衝撞世貿大樓一次造成多數法醫的死亡"},{"start":2519.802,"end":2543.284,"text":"我覺得在這種狀況裡面是可以允許有保留死刑同時司法針對個案去對死刑與否進行裁量第二種狀況是雖然生命法醫的侵害只有一個但是他的手段極其殘忍那沒有教化的可能性那必須永久隔離在這種狀況下可能也可以有這個死刑存在的空間"},{"start":2544.145,"end":2567.506,"text":"另外一種狀況呢他不在平常的審判就是在戰爭時期所以大概原則上來講我過去到現在都一直認為在這些極端的狀況下是可以允許死刑的存在至於立法院今天所提的問題說到兩公約裡面所謂的intentionally killing或intentionally result in death這樣子的狀況"},{"start":2568.827,"end":2593.702,"text":"這個所謂的intention到底有沒有包括間接故意那麼首先就要跟大家報告所謂直接故意就是比如說我刻意要造成另外一個人的死亡所以去殺他這是直接故意間接故意的意思是比如說無差別的殺人或者是我們講我開著車子我就是暴衝我就是要往前走即使我知道前面是綠燈"},{"start":2595.083,"end":2610.294,"text":"很多行人都在走路我認為就算撞死人我也無所謂好倘若我是這種無差別的放任性的一次性的我就是要做這件事情即使死人也不違背我的本意這就是所謂的間接故意那麼"},{"start":2610.734,"end":2639.06,"text":"一般我們在美國法上面所謂的intentionally它其實是指你要具備有這個故意的成分至於是直接故意跟間接故意都可以包含在內所以提綱裡面所提到的這種intentionally killing是不是僅限於直接故意我認為是不一定的如果今天是間接故意就像我剛剛講的我開著車子我直接爆衝我就算撞死人我也無所謂一種"},{"start":2640.661,"end":2660.018,"text":"視人命為無關無防無所謂的態度這種間接故意也是一種intentionally killing它不需要特定的我刻意的就是要造成某人的死亡因為如果是這樣它其實就是一種謀殺那麼至於在美國法上有沒有類似的情形呢是有的美國法上有一種"},{"start":2660.859,"end":2678.38,"text":"犯罪的太陽叫做felony murder就重罪謀殺或者是重罪殺人他講的狀況就是前面如果你觸犯了一個felony一年以上有期徒刑的罪就叫felony後面造成了死亡的結果他的刑度是有可能有死刑的"},{"start":2679.1,"end":2700.68,"text":"那這個就回應到立法院今天的問題如果今天是強盜而且致死可不可以有死刑可以的我們目前的條文裡面這也是一個選項那麼如果今天是虐童而導致致死可不可以增加死刑的選項我個人也認為是可以的所以這是回應立法院的前兩題"},{"start":2701.781,"end":2717.871,"text":"但是在這裡我想要提醒大家也提醒我們未來的立法為什麼這樣子的立法有可能造成其他體力上的問題因為凌虐童致死他有可能會被引發的是其他無自救力之人呢"},{"start":2718.451,"end":2744.889,"text":"所以其實我們為什麼會對相關的案件感到非常的憤怒是因為行為人所去施行凌虐的對象是一個沒有辦法有自救力的人可是沒有辦法有自救力的人並不只有幼童我們舉例假使是一個癱瘓的人他頭部以上是非常清醒的可是他身體不能移動你對於無自救力之人去把他殺掉凌虐"},{"start":2746.055,"end":2769.085,"text":"比如說重度的凌虐到最後讓他致死比如說用熱開水燙他最後脫水而亡請問這樣他跟虐童的狀況有何差異所以如果我們單獨是對虐童致死去把他加入死刑那我想我們應該要回應的是其他無自救力之人的虐待導致死亡的結果我們是不是也應該要增加"},{"start":2769.986,"end":2784.968,"text":"所以倘若今天你在刑法分責針對兒童去做這樣的規定可能就會有其他的類似狀況會想要比照當然我們另外一種立法的技術就是把它放在兒少的福利法裡面就如同我們之前提過的"},{"start":2785.789,"end":2800.457,"text":"修法2019年對於兒少的虐待我們加重其刑二分之一我覺得這也是一個有可能的立法但無論如何你在前階段的構成要件都要隨同調整才有可能避免輕輕法重的情形"},{"start":2801.497,"end":2826.376,"text":"另外我要跟各位報告的是無期徒刑不得假釋我個人是比較不贊同的因為如果有死刑的選項我就不贊同無期徒刑不得假釋一方面是無期徒刑不得假釋其實在過去我們在做任何刑事政策的討論它都是一個比較不具備達到刑事訴訟不管是應報預防或者是教化目的的一種刑度的規劃方式"},{"start":2827.597,"end":2847.535,"text":"那麼再來的情況就是倘若今天已經有死刑這個選項你還是要容認有司法的裁量最後一個是關於唯一死刑這個大法官在憲法法庭早就已經說過唯一死刑是僭越權利分立同時剝奪司法裁量權是一個違憲的狀況所以我個人是反對唯一死刑的"},{"start":2848.195,"end":2863.702,"text":"接下來我們要來談的就是這個眾所矚目的凱凱案其實各位可以看到在凱凱案的情形倘若今天檢察官起訴的條文是殺人他其實就具備了有可能在科處良刑的時候選擇死刑的選項"},{"start":2865.023,"end":2888.244,"text":"那至於凱凱案有沒有可能在一開始起訴的時候用殺人罪呢我認為是有可能的因為你對於一個一歲的小孩施予的種種虐待加上他的無自救能力事實上他實時上已經具備了間接殺人的故意也就是我剛剛提到的就算是他死掉也不違背我本意的狀況所以其實在個案上"},{"start":2889.545,"end":2905.233,"text":"如果要救濟是不是一定要靠修法我其實可能在個案的裁量上不管是一開始的偵查起訴的罪名或者是審判中來變更起訴的法條都是有可能來解決可能大家認為刑度不足的問題"},{"start":2906.514,"end":2926.218,"text":"那最後回到凱凱案的中整跟分析我個人認為這個問題更重要的應該是前端的預防也就是說在縣市政府的速度訪視裡為什麼沒有去看到這個幼童已經有很明顯的跟在他前一個保母家出現完全不一樣的"},{"start":2926.818,"end":2944.814,"text":"身體的傷害精神的衰弱以及各方面沒有辦法再像過去一個健康幼童的成長曲線只要我們有生養過小孩的都知道幼童的生長曲線其實是非常清楚可以去判斷的所以一個生命的消逝我們都非常的痛心尤其作為母親"},{"start":2945.635,"end":2966.081,"text":"對於這種虐童案我是深惡痛絕的但是如果要做法規的調整恐怕不適合第一個加上所謂30年有期徒刑因為這是違背我國這個刑法上面有期徒刑的上限的這個是沒辦法做的第二個唯一死刑也不是我們的選項但是調整前面的構成要件"},{"start":2967.281,"end":2987.834,"text":"在刑度上加上死刑針對無自救力之人我個人認為這個修法是可行的差異只在要把它定在刑法分則內或者是針對兒少去做一個特殊的立法那最後要講的是在這樣立法下可能要考慮的另外一個問題就是照護殺人或者是長照杯葛"},{"start":2988.755,"end":3014.893,"text":"因為很多無自救力之人他是高度仰賴大家照顧的那麼這個在上次立法院的另一場公聽會我們就討論過所以如果要做無自救力之人的立法也請一併予以考慮以上發言謝謝召委那也跟大家抱歉因為10點教育部有會議所以沒有辦法等一下留下來聆聽大家的高見再次感謝謝謝非常謝謝林教授那下一位我們請徐總召集人"},{"start":3017.473,"end":3031.844,"text":"我們補充介紹到場的吳嘉琳律師以及李佑群女士另外我們補充介紹黃國昌委員那請開始"},{"start":3035.157,"end":3057.51,"text":"委員謝謝,謝謝昭偉,然後各位專家,各位長官,大家好那我是還想陪你長大的總召徐妮妮對,那我今天想要探討的部分,因為我自己是有在接一些社工的相關事務對,所以我今天想分享的,就是我們不要再來晚了就是肆虐兒童事件下的刑責檢討,以及我們的改革訴求"},{"start":3061.8,"end":3070.466,"text":"對 崇凱開的案件我們往下探討我們到底漏接了多少的孩子就是首先我們希望就是謝謝法務部願意面對民眾的心聲從不予採納 無後續規劃變成嚴義中 真的是十分感謝那我們也想要爭取這個嚴義中和後續如果有開設公聽會是不是也能邀請我們現在在場的這些民間團體到場"},{"start":3086.158,"end":3102.033,"text":"是不是也能納入我們民間的聲音作為參考對 那也希望法務部可以給我們一個正面的回應首先現行刑法286條有沒有測定空間在場的專家 各位學者一定比我專業但是我想說雖然刑法286條第五項已經規定了"},{"start":3104.755,"end":3124.73,"text":"致死者可以判無期徒刑但若是最終他還是可以假釋仍然很難去彰顯正義我們認為應該要增列一個不得假釋的明文規定七歲以下幼兒他沒有反抗能力沒有逃生跟求救的能力卻反覆被成人長期凌虐致死"},{"start":3125.37,"end":3141.573,"text":"又有需要的是國家提供更高等級的保護因此我們要求調升刑度我們認為應該調整成最低刑度15年以上最高可判處死刑而不是只調高最高我們希望最低的限度它應該也要往上提升"},{"start":3143.763,"end":3162.993,"text":"2015年花蓮三歲女童虐死案我們判處她有期徒刑13年但加害者服刑6年她就假釋出獄了2005年邱小妹被父親虐死的案件我們判處她有期徒刑12年但她服刑8年就假釋出獄了而且她出獄之後還再犯刑刑案"},{"start":3164.534,"end":3177.81,"text":"這兩個案例都顯示機事法院對滅同致死者判處多年的徒刑實際服刑期間卻因為假釋制度大幅縮短導致社會對司法的公正性是存疑的"},{"start":3178.971,"end":3195.657,"text":"高高法定刑上限並不等於我每個案件我都要判處死刑而是我們提供了司法體系在罪惡性案件中有相對應的裁量空間我們只針對特殊主觀惡性明顯以及長期施行凌虐才開放死刑的處段"},{"start":3197.117,"end":3211.06,"text":"對於兒童而言保障生命與人格發展都屬於憲法高度優先法義對於嚴重侵害這些人的去對他施以重刑完全符合保護弱勢生命的正當目的"},{"start":3216.946,"end":3241.172,"text":"那我現在想要補充 像我們的CRC第六條它其實就是保障兒童生存與發展權第十九條 免受所有形式的暴力第三十七條 禁止酷刑以及殘忍對待再來我們的憲法十五條它保障了人民的生存權 工作權 財產權都應該要有保障二十二條 其他自由權利包含了我們的人格發展"},{"start":3242.369,"end":3268.67,"text":"台灣是一個民主而且自由的國家我們進行的每一次修法我相信都不會是之前沈博洋委員在直播上曾經提過的社運團體號召人民上街使出逼迫性修法而是我們應該要經過多次的討論我們才做下這個決定無論是之前人民站上街的任何修法案件性侵害防治法也好紅重修的案件也好"},{"start":3269.41,"end":3293.016,"text":"這些都是國家應該要給予民眾的回應回應我們這些孩子生命逝去的這些事實真正在逼迫的不是我們民間耶是你們這些立委你們這些機關政要你們看著孩子白白死去什麼都不做這才是逼迫性修法我們作為家長我們很多的事情要做我們要陪伴孩子長大為什麼我們要站在街頭為這些孩子請命我想要問"},{"start":3298.072,"end":3320.549,"text":"在場的各級長官委員以及先進我們有沒有辦法接受長期凌虐一個幼兒致死只因為我們沒辦法證明他是殺人故意行為人頂多關十幾年就出獄那還有哪一位長官敢在這一個個被凌虐致死的孩子遺照面前說這些凌虐你的人是不應該被判處死刑的"},{"start":3321.63,"end":3338.391,"text":"殺人罪可以判死 凌虐致死卻不行難道慢慢虐死沒有比痛快殺人還要嚴重嗎國家寧願避免極少數的加害者被過度處罰我們也不願意保護更多數的孩子去免於他們受到凌虐嗎"},{"start":3340.95,"end":3360.978,"text":"再來我想要講講我們的邵氏法的部分校園割喉案件自從陳勳事件之後我們已經過了將近一年半我想要請教司法院從113年8月8號這個邵氏法修正草案含他機關會嫌至今我們直接沉入海底欸 消失欸"},{"start":3362.158,"end":3383.698,"text":"請問有沒有做後續的跟進那行政院這邊是不是有遇到什麼困難還是說我們真的立院主公無人在意就沒有人要去推進這個東西當孩子犯錯我們才進入輔導系統少年法庭我們才開始進行處慾我真的想問這個時候我們才第一次教他什麼是法律這樣真的不會太晚嗎"},{"start":3386.42,"end":3402.81,"text":"下一個首先我們想要提我們最早的訴求少事法83-1條關於前科塗銷制度是否應該採取有條件不予塗銷首先少事法它本身的設計就是為了保護少年以利他們更生"},{"start":3403.49,"end":3423.217,"text":"但是我們缺乏分級分類還有條件審查的情況下反而更可能讓少年缺乏對與錯的界限認知降低他對這個行為的後果警覺性導致重複犯罪我這邊要強調間接導致重複犯罪他的重複犯罪大家都名列一筆喔"},{"start":3425.219,"end":3432.452,"text":"我們也不要讓這一個利益良善的制度成為少年逃避責任的工具而非反省行為的機會"},{"start":3434.42,"end":3447.013,"text":"再來上市法84條 輕職教育內容調整我自己現在有在接一些家庭輔導支持的案件就是當這個孩子他在一些情況下他已經出現偏離常軌了那會進行通報就會由我們第三人進去這個家庭去做一個輔導跟支持讓這個家庭重新運轉起來讓父母學會怎麼跟孩子溝通跟建立關係"},{"start":3458.564,"end":3478.47,"text":"我們認為家庭應該依照不同的情況做分級分類的處遇主要照顧者本來就應該負起教育跟養育孩子的責任跟義務不應該將這些問題轉移到社政我們都應該要用家庭為主 社會為輔在家庭有能力自己療癒自己的時候社會資源也應該提早介入"},{"start":3479.17,"end":3494.559,"text":"我們希望課程內容該以親子共同輔導為主而不是家長去到現場就看投影投影投影報告然後就去看場電影寫一個心得就我學會怎麼教孩子了這是不對的我們是需要也可能需要進行團體諮商"},{"start":3496.758,"end":3521.704,"text":"最重要的一點我認為應該要引進IEP也就是個別化教育系統那要怎麼提升這些孩子參與家長參與輔導的意願我們都知道少年犯罪的成因是很複雜的最大的問題可能就是貧窮所以我們是不是能夠提供考慮去報銷當日的薪資或者是說請假不扣薪等配套措施來去讓家長提升這一種輔導加入輔導的意願"},{"start":3524.963,"end":3549.476,"text":"再來就是人力不足的困境還有社政資源的集中管理我們常常在很多次的會議中都聽到了保護官的困境我們人力不足都應該要予以重視能不能我們不要以原則支持實際無力的這種空話我希望請司法院協助提供保護官的理想人力比跟目前的實際人力比到底是多少然後含附給大家知道"},{"start":3550.316,"end":3570.347,"text":"如果我們無法補充少保官的人力缺口那就等於是無法落實個案輔導應及時介入的精神怎麼樣給予每一位受傷的少年第一線人員還有無錯的家長交代消失法不應該只例字不落地消失法的落實與否絕大部分取決於我們的人力到不到位"},{"start":3571.789,"end":3588.648,"text":"目前少年的個案分散在不同部門有教育衛福司法地方雖然我們有跨部會聯繫但各部門人員的公務繁重所以它是得開而不是因開所以我們希望不要再導致資料轉嫌資訊落差服務重疊或者是斷層"},{"start":3591.451,"end":3614.505,"text":"希望由行政院這邊搭建一個少年整合平台或者是借街調閱我們建立一個少年資料庫導入分級查閱系統我們不需要公開完整案底只要從他的身份去查閱必要資料就可以了我們就可以馬上知道我們應該給予他怎麼樣的處遇以及他可能遇到的風險以此方式落實消失法的處遇優先"},{"start":3615.926,"end":3640.142,"text":"再來我想要提我們的少年矯正機關從陳勳事件之後我們的少年矯正機關的狀況它依然是層出不窮我們2020年城鎮中學連續三天的搖房暴動2020年桃園少官所姓霸凌事件還有其他鬥毆搖房事件頻傳2021年台北少官所搖房事件委員不好意思可以讓我說完嗎"},{"start":3643.785,"end":3652.16,"text":"那2024年端平中學大型集體搖防暴動事件這甚至還請了50名外面的人員進去進行我們不要講鎮壓我們去進行輔導跟協助"},{"start":3656.704,"end":3678.994,"text":"那日本少年的教保比大概是1比10到1比15德國則是1比7到1比10那我國呢1比30甚至更高我想要請法務部能不能也含附如果要達到現場矯正教育成效覺察反省自身過錯這件事情我們理想人力比大概是如何如果人力補充上有困難"},{"start":3679.634,"end":3698.372,"text":"我相信人民的声音也愿意成为你们的依靠我们愿意为了孩子站在这里倡议只要孩子能平安的长大我们都很愿意多元化的储育也不应该只是口号要热实在储育内容的各个角落从社工法院矫正储育的内容出校出所后的转型机制"},{"start":3699.679,"end":3727.055,"text":"我想要請法務部能不能協助提供各區矯正學校校官所目前的實際處遇內容我們曾接獲校內老師反應其實少年他們坐在教室的時候他們只希望少年不要調皮你去吵鬧 你去鬧房 你去鬧都不要發生在我的課程上就好我們給予少年的觀念難道就是飯不好吃我就搖房不順我意我就暴動老師要討好我 不然我就來吵吵到我有糖吃為止嗎"},{"start":3728.836,"end":3749.497,"text":"會進入收容跟感化教育的少年他們成因都有一定的複雜性而且我希望大家了解這些少年他們已經社會化很長一段時間了如果我們沒辦法在他出校出所前教他們如何獨立生活那他們復歸社會的時候回到阿兄跟狗狗身邊那都是很必然的結果"},{"start":3750.922,"end":3779.102,"text":"最後我希望我們能不能考慮重啟少年矯正研究中心的討論因為我們曾聽過多次有老師反映矯正學校從上到下的遴選制度百出最多最多我們聽到的就是校長是去累積退休年資的還有校長是爽缺等等那我們也有少年矯正指導教育指導委員會還是屢試發聲弊端以新竹城鎮中學舉例"},{"start":3780.043,"end":3808.038,"text":"曾經發生教務主任自己加班補休彈性上下班這些都有評議書可以查一年250個小時那因為校長挺那矯正署到底有沒有落實調查對不對那因為證明教務主任的行為老師都不願意當這種主任的幕僚只剩下代理老師兼職組長那代理老師也跟著日常遲到報加班補休一早他到現在運動一小時十點半吃早餐十一點半就下班"},{"start":3809.605,"end":3835.751,"text":"同學們反映校長說新竹市出差沒有給組長交通費每天下午出差不上班是補償我今天我們就成為吹哨者請法務部協助提供調查調查後也希望能夠給我們具體的人事物以及對現場教師的霸凌也請各位委員監督如果是屬實還請法務部嚴懲不待不要讓我們的第一線教輔小組與介護同仁含辛最後矯正體系還有一個狀況"},{"start":3838.211,"end":3844.171,"text":"身心疾患者的學生增加一線教師常常需要負擔超出平均值的編制"},{"start":3845.607,"end":3869.682,"text":"這對老師跟學生而言都是很不公平的成立研究中心最大的目的除了監督跟領選之外更重要的我希望大家知道是傳承少年相關的輔導業務調整以及未來的修正方向都是靠經驗跟傳承不斷的去積累希望法務部能夠思量去重啟這一個討論那身為父母的我們能為孩子做的不多我們只希望"},{"start":3870.883,"end":3888.017,"text":"讓孩子平安長大不要再成為我們上街的口號我們真的不要再為了孩子平安而站在街頭為大家倡議我也希望大家可以下地看看我們的孩子是真的活在地獄那我們這一邊有提供就是我們收集的民眾的"},{"start":3889.578,"end":3915.809,"text":"這邊是三百三百五十幾封的手寫陳情書那能不能請衛福部還有司法院的長官幫我們接下這陳情書麻煩衛福部還有司法院的代表然後對民眾的訴求啊那麻煩你們能收下好那麻煩到前面來好那還有剛剛就是"},{"start":3922.524,"end":3947.193,"text":"再麻煩你剛剛發言人所提到的部分再麻煩邵家廷還有刑事廳最後還有提到法務部還有衛福部這些麻煩具體的回覆回覆的部分也給我辦公室一份我也想研究一下看整個狀況好 謝謝下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3957.935,"end":3980.179,"text":"謝謝主席 在開始發言之前我想要請教主席一件事情今天這麼多的學者專家出席甚至我剛在下面聽到許總召集人的發言我其實感觸非常的深剛出來衛福部"},{"start":3986.483,"end":4014.657,"text":"接這麼多人民手寫陳情書的我發現既不是部長也不是次長今天衛福部是沒有把這個公定會當回事嗎部長跟次長有什麼更重要的事情就請假跟黃永遠說明一下因為次長他現在人在國外所以他沒有辦法過來只有一個次長所有的次長都在國外"},{"start":4016.687,"end":4020.45,"text":"現在衛福部是只有一個次長所有的次長都在國外是不是那其他的次長呢一個人在國外其他都不用來是這樣嗎你們衛福部要回去看一看你們今天提出來的報告啊像話嗎短短的兩頁交差了事啊這麼重要的事情"},{"start":4045.097,"end":4050.081,"text":"多少人站上街頭啊你們提兩頁的報告出來敷衍大家主席準價我尊重但我希望衛福部的代表把我今天的意見帶回去你們衛福部告訴邱太元部長這麼重要的事情他自己不來已經很誇張了連次長都請假"},{"start":4074.758,"end":4077.441,"text":"虧你們還是什麼 主管機關啊這些媽媽看了不會心寒嗎現在是衛福部每個官位都很大嗎"},{"start":4096.718,"end":4106.123,"text":"不好意思喔主席因為我尊重你給他們準價但我覺得作為一個立法委員我該表達的立場我一定要表達你們今天啊衛福部如果事前的預防做得好我們有必要坐在這邊啊討論加重刑罰的事情嗎你們自己都不會汗顏不會覺得丟臉"},{"start":4126.918,"end":4145.627,"text":"還散漫連次長都不來拜託衛福部的代表把我今天強烈的意見回去告訴邱太元部長我下次到衛環委員會的時候我會當面質詢他這件事情好 謝謝主席"},{"start":4147.182,"end":4172.72,"text":"非常感謝今天所有的學者專家針對這份重要的議題提出寶貴的意見我更感謝這麼多的民間團體犧牲自己的時間在公餘的時候不管是站上街頭還是來到立法院發出人民的心聲我自己是一個法律人"},{"start":4174.076,"end":4199.152,"text":"但是我們自己都會時常的反省法律人是不是有的時候有過度專業的傲慢而忘了去聆聽第一線基層人民的心聲每一天這麼多年輕的朋友在凱凱安開庭的時候齊聚在台北地方法院外面發出人民的訴求跟怒吼"},{"start":4200.403,"end":4221.003,"text":"當天也有立法委員到台北地方法院外去聲援我相信我也支持這個是公民社會監督我們司法權運作非常健康的一個意見表達的形式而且也是必要的"},{"start":4222.612,"end":4234.82,"text":"這個案件讓我們重新開啟了對於很多事情深切的反省跟思考為什麼這樣子說呢我也要特別感謝昭偉今天召開這一場公聽會"},{"start":4238.615,"end":4261.821,"text":"因為每一次我們在討論刑度的時候我最常看見法務部也好司法院也好所提出來的書面報告會挑其中一兩個罪名說這樣子不符合罪責的相當性在法定刑的權衡上面是失衡我必須要說"},{"start":4263.411,"end":4280.037,"text":"從我們過去刑法到今天各式各樣特別法的修正的確裡面存在的在各個法條彼此之間的法定型的輕重權衡有的時候從純法律的觀點難以解釋但"},{"start":4282.937,"end":4296.389,"text":"這個是我們在檢討刑度的時候我們的法務部從來就沒有通盤的就刑法分責的規定是不是有重新檢討的必要交出完整的報告"},{"start":4297.423,"end":4319.616,"text":"也就是說當立法者要回應民意要修改法律針對特定罪名去調整刑度的時候我們法務部慣常的思考模式就是從刑法分則裡面挑起他的條文說你動了這一個那另外的條文法定刑的權衡就會相似衡"},{"start":4320.336,"end":4333.982,"text":"如果這個是原因的話請法務部的次長今天帶回去請法務部認真地檢討我們針對刑法分責的法定刑有沒有重新全盤調整的必要我為什麼這樣子說呢"},{"start":4335.663,"end":4362.477,"text":"我們目前刑法328條在暴力的財產犯罪的時候第三項規定暴力財產犯罪我們第一項是五年以上有期徒刑再往下是犯強盜罪因而致人於死處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑犯暴力的財產法益侵害的犯罪如果致人於死可以處死刑"},{"start":4363.444,"end":4376.929,"text":"那但是每一次我們碰到286條的時候法務部永遠的意見都是如果凌虐兒童致死的話如果給他死刑權衡上面會輕重失衡永遠的理由通通都是這個樣子"},{"start":4383.308,"end":4408.743,"text":"但是我們看328條跟286條彼此之間的比較就可以清楚的看得出來如果財產侵害財產法律的犯罪透過暴力行為侵害財產法律的犯罪因而致人於死都可以處死刑為什麼 輪孽兒童甚至是一定歲數以下不管是七歲以下 五歲以下 三歲以下完全沒有自衛能力的人"},{"start":4409.815,"end":4437.864,"text":"自而於死 處法定刑到死刑法務部為什麼一直都在反對為什麼一直都在反對那當然我必須要說的是328條我也看過學者有提出批判但是學者的批判我們立法者都會虛心的傾聽但是我們更關心的是怎麼樣去回應人民的期待"},{"start":4438.926,"end":4457.212,"text":"當我去思考怎麼去回應人民期待的時候我們馬上就會發現立法者現在面對的困難以及我們可不可以跨越的鴻溝因為刑法328條第三項這一個加重結果犯的處死刑依照"},{"start":4458.308,"end":4480.951,"text":"我們憲法法庭去年的判決必須要限於有直接蓋瓜或者是折衣的殺人故意才可以處這個法定刑也就是回到了當我們的憲法法庭它不當的介入了我們立法形成的空間對於死刑科處難以跨越的障礙的時候"},{"start":4482.335,"end":4498.656,"text":"我們必須要嚴肅的面對我們在法定型的調整上立法者還有多少空間在什麼樣子的程度範圍內可以去做調整如果按照我們憲法法庭的要求因為"},{"start":4499.517,"end":4513.973,"text":"公正公約的確有說施以死刑必須要the most serious crime也就是最嚴重的罪但是我們大法官又往前更跨了一步不僅僅是最嚴重的罪還要犯罪情節最嚴重"},{"start":4515.074,"end":4529.694,"text":"我在這裡直詢了好幾次問什麼叫做犯罪情節最嚴重要如何判定不管是法務部的代表還是司法院的代表到目前為止沒有辦法提出一個清楚的準據但是"},{"start":4530.735,"end":4552.503,"text":"我們面臨的困難是一模一樣的當我們的大法官針對這件事情甚至針對我們現在刑法裡面有科死刑的法定刑到底要限縮到什麼樣的程度才可以科處手直接都伸進了立法形成的範圍的時候我們接下來在有關於虐童致死"},{"start":4553.163,"end":4574.35,"text":"我們的立法者還存在多少的空間還存在多少的空間可以滿足我們的大法官他們自居為立法者所創設的要件這個是我們接下來所要面對的第一個問題那第二個問題我也要呼應有很多民間團體所提出來的這早就不是新鮮事"},{"start":4575.58,"end":4595.855,"text":"我國什麼時候有無期徒刑無期徒刑只活在六法全書裡無期徒刑從來沒有落實在具體的實踐當中在具體的實踐當中即使是殺人罪即使是黑幫老大的殺人罪判了無期徒刑關十八年"},{"start":4596.857,"end":4623.765,"text":"假釋處遇關18年假釋處遇那大家會覺得很奇怪我國刑法規定不是要規定要關滿25年無期徒刑才可以假釋嗎那是因為我們目前刑法整個在刑法上面的處遇對於加害人對於受刑人有所謂的雙重憂鬱什麼叫雙重憂鬱第一個在監鎖的時候就透過所謂的累進處遇的"},{"start":4626.986,"end":4654.666,"text":"讓他關一個月有的可以抵兩天有的可以抵四天有的可以抵六天如果到外議監去做爽勞可以關一天算兩天所以一般的人民很難理解明明不是要一半才可以假育假釋明明不是無期一徒期要過25年才假釋怎麼我們看到這麼多重大的犯罪類型重大的犯罪加害人的時候常常關不到一半就出來了"},{"start":4655.687,"end":4679.905,"text":"這一種雙重憂鬱的這一種雙重憂鬱我們目前刑事司法的設計你要不然就有假釋我透過假釋的制度鼓勵你改過向善可以早一點出來但是我有門檻我要不然就透過累進處慾的制度透過累進處慾在裡面慢慢的縮短你的刑期但是我們的刑事司法是這兩個制度都有"},{"start":4680.746,"end":4705.647,"text":"既有什麼 既有縮短刑期的規定又有什麼 又有假釋的規定當這兩個加起來了以後就是我們現在人民看到為什麼常常關不到一半啊 就出來這件事情 在2017年私改國是會議的時候有沒有提出來討論過 有提出來討論過結論有沒有改革的必要 有改革的必要但是我必須要沉痛的說啊"},{"start":4706.007,"end":4733.147,"text":"毫不令人意外的2017年的史改國式會議不僅僅是林玉秀老師所講的天燈會議放天燈大會更離譜的事情是做成的決議根本沒有在執行浪費納稅人的錢開大拜拜的會議結果會議有結論到現在2025年8年過去了法務部司法院難辭其咎難辭其咎"},{"start":4736.141,"end":4762.837,"text":"把司改國事會議當成廢紙根本沒有認真的在面對上面的問題那因此當我們的法務部開始跟大家講說在我們的大法官對於死刑的施加施加了難以跨越的鴻溝以後整個社會在討論無期徒刑不可以假設的無期徒刑應不應該是選項法務部說他們贊成應該是選項去年"},{"start":4766.618,"end":4791.721,"text":"透過媒體發新聞稿說年底要完成 要提出現在已經2025年的5月請問法務部東西在哪裡法務部部長給我的回應是說行政院還在研議我必須要老實跟大家報告我現在是只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕我只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕因為崔少哲保護法 法務部"},{"start":4792.864,"end":4804.534,"text":"研議了八年提不出草案棄保潛逃罪研議了八年提不出草案不法關說罪研議了八年還是提不出草案"},{"start":4806.072,"end":4832.402,"text":"我只要聽到法務部或行政院的官員說他們還在研議啊我聽了就害怕了所以我懇請召委啊懇請召委我肯定召委排這個公聽會但是但是法務部的官員可以混可以繼續研議民間社會不能等民間社會不能等我們社會法治委員會在履行我們立法委員職責的時候該排案就排案繼續往前推進"},{"start":4833.786,"end":4859.469,"text":"我受不了等法務部跟行政院的研議啊我們今天難道要這邊站在這邊告訴人民說讓我們的法務部跟行政院再研議八年啊給他們研議八年以後再來處理啊絕對不接受最後一點寶貴的意見啊犯罪被害人的訴訟參與權我曾經當過犯罪被害人的義務辯護人我在法庭上面實際參與了犯罪被害人的法庭活動"},{"start":4861.377,"end":4888.086,"text":"我們說強化犯罪被害人訴訟上的地位跟國際接軌那根本是騙人的做半套林玉雄老師的書就寫得很清楚2019年那個時候要求要強化的時候立法理由寫得很漂亮說跟國際接軌那實際上是什麼實際上面是言過其實人為改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場"},{"start":4889.482,"end":4909.632,"text":"沒有改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場犯罪被害人在刑事訴訟程序上面沒有被視為程序主體沒有辦法對於證人對質詢問沒有辦法對於上訴與否有更大的決定權這個是早就浮在檯面上面的問題啦"},{"start":4911.684,"end":4929.791,"text":"我希望司法院也好法務部也好不要一天到晚做大內宣什麼跟國際接軌你到底在講什麼東西啊聽不懂啊明明只有做半套最重要的東西都沒有然後在文書上面發新聞稿跟台灣人民說跟國際接軌"},{"start":4931.65,"end":4952.924,"text":"我最後再次感謝所有學者專家跟民間團體的代表給我們的寶貴意見有的時候我們因為必須要跑來跑去未必可以全程聆聽但是各位寶貴的意見都會在立法院公報留下寶貴的紀錄謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請劉裕偉副教授"},{"start":4969.997,"end":4996.174,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位先進 大家好首先我非常榮幸能夠參加這次公聽會為這個社會的正義的貢獻盡一些微薄的力量那這次主要探討是有關於286條的修正目的主要是要回歸民意那參考諸如這個328條第三項還有347條第二項的這個立法例將這些罪以加重結果犯的形態在刑法設計上面有死刑的做法"},{"start":4997.114,"end":5015.219,"text":"借鏡來提升第286條同樣具有加重結果犯的形態想要將他的刑事制裁提高到最高可以處於死刑的這種設計首先在立法目的上面是呼籲民意主要促進兒少的身心健康發展以及相關的這個權益的維護在這邊表達肯定"},{"start":5015.959,"end":5043.022,"text":"但在設計上那邊的部分我則表達尊重事實上這個部分的條文已經經過疊進的立法最近一次在2024年7月的時候有做一些修正那可以看得出來國人對於這個兒少的關心跟重視但是我所思考的地方是如果單純只是提高刑法或提升刑法的目的是在這個處以死刑的部分而忽略了行為的太陽是否能夠真正達到有效威嚇的預防目的"},{"start":5043.783,"end":5063.719,"text":"以及是否能夠繼續遏止這種類案的再生以及會不會有罰得越重而構成要件的審查密度也越高而限於罰得重但罰不到的窘境所以今天參考今天的提綱總共其實就分為這三個部分第一個是有關加重處罰第二個是有關不得假釋以及兒少的程序保障問題"},{"start":5064.6,"end":5089.654,"text":"所以我也認為應該就行事立法層面行事司法層面跟行事執行層面的部分來分別對應這幾個綱目的部分那在行事立法的部分我是針對加重處罰的部分的設計做一些建議還有幾點提醒在行事司法的部分則針對兒少程序保障的部分做一些回應在行事執行的部分我針對不得假釋的部分提出個人的看法在這邊提出個人的淺見首先我們先看一下行事立法層面的部分"},{"start":5091.377,"end":5111.372,"text":"在刑事立法的層面的部分我們可以看到刑法286條第一項是屬於加重結果犯的情況那可是我們看一下加重結果犯在學理上面的這個組成基本上他是必須出一個基本行為這個基本行為按照286條就是針對未滿18歲的課體要施以凌虐或他法足以"},{"start":5112.252,"end":5133.748,"text":"妨礙其身心健全及發育的行為也就是必須出於故意而且必須導致構成要件以外的加重結果這個加重結果就因而致人於死或致重傷的一個情形是過失所導致的才符合刑法第17條的這種組成的定義也就是換句話說必須有一種基本行為也就是故意然後最後的結果會是加重而是過失的這種形態"},{"start":5134.528,"end":5157.432,"text":"那這個基本行為跟加重行為之間必須有一個特殊的這個危險性跟直接的關聯也就是目的就是為了要加重處罰那可是目前我們草案的這個設計的部分是類似採用這種財產犯罪的這種加重結果犯作為依據那我們要思考的是加重結果犯他還帶有過失的成分就要論死那沒有過失的純粹故意的犯罪卻沒有論死的設計又該如何"},{"start":5160.373,"end":5172.079,"text":"所以在這個時候刑法的均衡性是不是可以做一個思考因此在這個地方我在思考的地方就是說可不可以我們透過直接以虐童故意犯的角度來去做這樣的思維的一個調整因此從構成要件的行為太陽可能會隨著網路科技社會變遷個案的這個所謂的差異而翻新或多變"},{"start":5181.363,"end":5187.426,"text":"是否我們可以仿諸比如說刑法22302條之一32139條之四的方式採取加重構成要件要素的方式增列第286條之一第一項加重妨礙未成年發育罪並處罰未睡犯並且就範第286第1、2項由死人重傷或死人受死亡者增列第二項然後仿照刑法332條第二項334第二項348第二項"},{"start":5209.216,"end":5234.486,"text":"採刑事結果犯的方式再將法律效果提升為死刑這個部分或許能夠可以提綱有關於有違反公正公約六條二項情節最重大之罪的爭議使虐童犯罪能夠予以層級化然後必符罪行相當的原則這個修正的建議的部分我把它強烈在這個現在PPT的這個一些這個設計上面雖然不是非常周延但可以供各位這個市長們可以做一些這個參考"},{"start":5236.167,"end":5255.696,"text":"那第二個部分我們在探討是有關刑事司法面的問題在這地方我分別從論罪、量刑及兒少訴訟程序保障方面三個角度來去做相關的探討第一個首先我們先看你虐罪的部分是在刑法第十條第七項有立法定義但並沒有在條文中有要求說要有持續性"},{"start":5256.636,"end":5284.889,"text":"所以在解釋上是不是以持續性為必要呢在這個地方實務見解有採取肯定說的比如說像最高法院11台上4274也有採取否定說的比如說最高法院109年的台上353號那如果假設行為人都已經恃以故意了對於未滿18歲的客體施以凌虐可否視同為慢性殺人或準殺人而施以第刑法271條同樣的法律效果這也是刑事司法在認識用法上可以參考的方向"},{"start":5285.569,"end":5308.065,"text":"如果我們今天才否定所有的見解那這個地方也就是不以持續性為要件的話或者是有人用這個短期抗變的方式來鑽這個要件的漏洞這時候我們也可以參考一下像這個2024年新修正的校園霸凌防治準則第71條它就有鑒有準霸凌的設計就是特別針對這種鑽要件漏洞"},{"start":5309.966,"end":5325.575,"text":"沒有以持續性為要件然後採取短期抗辯的一個做法可以解決短時間但高強度同樣構成霸凌的認定所以或許我們可以在刑法第十條第七項裡面去設計有關於準凌虐的部分以針周延"},{"start":5326.235,"end":5336.643,"text":"那在量刑的部分我們可以看到很多專家學者都有提到有關於兒權法就是兒童及少年福利權益保障法的部分它有加重期刑的一些相關的規定所以在這個地方我們可以看得到是不是跟原本的286條第五項未滿7歲這個部分加重二分之一有跌床計號的問題"},{"start":5347.791,"end":5376.19,"text":"在這地方曾經在討論有關刑法227的時候最高法院有曾經統一見解過但是我個人認為是不是我們可以再次統一見解類似的虐童案件可不可以都回歸到兒圈法112條加重其刑並且修正不受刑法第65條第一項無期徒刑不可以加重的規定使案件適當的這個用兒圈法加重其刑的時候可以加重處以死刑這是針對所有的這個涉及兒少的這個刑事案件做整體跟通盤性的考量"},{"start":5378.391,"end":5402.058,"text":"那接下來我要做一個提醒就是如果假設今天刑法提升到死刑有沒有可能到英雄無用武之地的這個狀況也就是我們當刑法我們發現它的法律效果越強的時候連帶的構成要件也將審查的越縝密越縝密的結果就可能造成罰得重但未必罰得到的情況因此修正刑法第286條提升為死刑的時候也要考慮這個問題"},{"start":5405.399,"end":5422.929,"text":"而且更重要的是如果行為人剛好又是未滿18歲或是未滿80歲以上觸犯286條的時候不得處死刑或無期徒刑在在刑法63條有規定或者是刑法第19條有一項二項的行為刑是行為人的時候如果他的精神抗辯成立了即便"},{"start":5423.669,"end":5440.437,"text":"法定刑事死刑在面對兩公約施行的時候也不可以宣告或執行甚至於在審刑時候是正常的那審判的時候或審判後才陷入精神狀況這個情形也是不可以執行這個在最高法院102年的台商是4289以後這個部分問題"},{"start":5441.377,"end":5456.433,"text":"最後即便進入了宣判的關卡這個時候又會再陷入113年宣判之八號程序條件上的一些限制這個部分是做一個這方面的一個提醒那第三個有關兒少訴訟的權益保障方面的部分我們考量到"},{"start":5457.254,"end":5462.459,"text":"因為同案的這個被害人都很輕如果保障訴訟上的權益的部分我們可以參考到額選法一二條有關於這個主管機關獨立上訴的問題但是我們也可以思考可不可以針對主管機關可以獨立提起上訴等救濟的問題"},{"start":5472.529,"end":5488.127,"text":"或許現在《刑事訴訟法》國民法官廣告兒少事法的部分可以藉由這個設計的部分去定位這個所謂的司法社工的這個機制讓司法社工能夠全程參與陳述意見甚至會兒少被害人獨立提起告訴或提起上訴等救濟的一個錯誤來強化兒少的這個訴訟的保障"},{"start":5492.081,"end":5512.767,"text":"第三個部分是有關於刑事執行的部分我們可以從監獄行刑法第一條可以看得到監獄主要是強調的是教化跟復歸也就是現在的監獄行刑法的部分是強調教大於管管大於官所凸顯的問題是對於不同殺人罪職的虐待兒童犯罪如果採的是絕對"},{"start":5514.648,"end":5532.755,"text":"也就是完全不得假釋那怎麼樣讓這些人在監獄中有對應的教化措施這是第一點第二點的部分是為了減輕獄政管理的負荷跟社會成本世界各個國家無不使用前後門並進的策略來減少監禁的人口那假釋向來是各國紓解"},{"start":5534.48,"end":5540.245,"text":"這個監獄擁擠的後門策略如果採取是絕對不得假釋的設計這意味著在立法上面阻卻了前門同時關閉了後門這個社會成本可能也是全民必須所共同負擔的那如果我們採取相對不得假釋就是負條件不得假釋的部分在這個時候我認為應該要善用以及重視長期被冷漠的保安處分機制比如說擴大強制治療監護處分以及保護管束等保安處分使用的對象"},{"start":5561.161,"end":5569.927,"text":"甚至不排除這個所謂的保安處分的種類像增訂行後強制心理治療或實質的社區監控的處分並使保安處分結合社會政策來適時發揮最大的功效最後"},{"start":5573.55,"end":5597.887,"text":"我要說明的是這個所有的案件裡面我們的社會修復其實做得不好我認為說誠如像德國刑法學者李斯特所講的最好的社會爭執就是最好形式的分子應該減少這個所謂的法律的不安定性所造成帶來的道德恐慌也應該重視社會安全網絡的周延性而不是想一做一的應急也許在本案過後有關於兒少福利法案的配套也應該閒續接力來進行檢討"},{"start":5599.748,"end":5628.86,"text":"這也是一個值得思考的方向以上是個人本師對於這個議案的意見提請指教 謝謝好 謝謝劉教授那剛剛那個教授對於法制的部分那也要麻煩法務部能夠參考尤其是對於範議那是否能夠變更現有框架的問題剛剛劉教授我覺得他說得非常的精闢那麻煩法務部就這個部分能夠去參考一下尤其是對於這個主觀範議是不是我們只能把它限縮在"},{"start":5630.343,"end":5650.619,"text":"過失 或是我們可以把它調整到翻譯的部分能不能朝向故意的部分去思考我覺得這是一個很好的啟發點 謝謝下一位我們請李女士因為她時間上面必須調整往前所以我們做順序上面的調整 謝謝"},{"start":5659.127,"end":5686.878,"text":"大家好在座的各位先打委員主席大家好我是凱凱網路爸媽群的發言人李祐群那同時也是510凱道護兒集會行動的召集人那主席因為我們有另外兩位媽媽可以一起上台聲援嗎好因為那個之前我印象中在"},{"start":5689.158,"end":5704.473,"text":"對於我們立法院秘書長那一次好像我們的公聽會民進黨的專家證人就站在後面兩位律師我印象中是這樣所以有潛力好那可以我這邊同意謝謝主席"},{"start":5727.574,"end":5752.316,"text":"我這邊說明一下 因為之前在針對我們的秘書長 立法院秘書長那次公聽會就是委員是有讓兩位律師就直接站在後方所以我想說有潛力我們立法院我們其實是很講求過往的慣例及潛力的那既然過去有 所以我們今天也予以同意我這邊說明原因好 繼續"},{"start":5753.668,"end":5759.742,"text":"謝謝主席就我以下的問題希望官員等會兒可以給予回應"},{"start":5761.431,"end":5788.765,"text":"那非常感謝原本我們13萬人呢原本在網路上的連署法務部這邊原本是不採納最後改口為演藝中那就剛剛在座各位賢達在發言呢我也聽到了也感受到大家也都因為凱凱案的關係大家都盡自己的專業想要為"},{"start":5790.886,"end":5807.945,"text":"為孩子們做一點 做一點努力那就法務部這邊的新聞稿內容有提到那我想請問我們法務部這裡具體修正草案何時會提出是否有明確的期程"},{"start":5811.383,"end":5834.403,"text":"那我們呢終究還是要回歸到我們的憲法裡面的規定因為對於孩子呢兒虐案一直都是輕判到目前為止我們只看到劉采萱這兩位保姆他們算是史有史以來最高的刑度到無期徒刑但是孩子他們是沒有任何自救能力的"},{"start":5835.512,"end":5852.429,"text":"所以對於這樣子的刑度我們真的覺得還是太輕了那明明我們沒有廢除死刑我們不太能理解為什麼法官始終不願不願使用他們自己的裁量權能夠判到死刑"},{"start":5853.55,"end":5876.977,"text":"我們不追求我們沒有要求要唯一實行因為過去的往例其實是帶給我們社會很沉重的代價所以我們並沒有要求唯一實行而是要希望說法官和司法院這邊能夠去看清楚像加拿大這邊的做法是"},{"start":5878.171,"end":5902.879,"text":"他们认为孩子他们没有任何自救能力也不会平白无故的自己死去只有大人的作为与不作为才会造成他们死亡的结果所以加拿大边这边对对于孽童凌虐孩子致死他们是采取的采取的是是以死刑来做处理那我们也借鉴"},{"start":5904.212,"end":5931.355,"text":"借鉴这个南韩南韩呢有个证人案也是凌虐致死的案子是这样的是养父母把这个一岁四个月大的证人凌虐到死那也因此去促成了南韩政府进行的修法这个虐待儿童犯罪处罚特别法也简称为证人法"},{"start":5932.389,"end":5951.592,"text":"那就可以看得到虐殺幼童他們的刑度拉高到處死刑因此我們的訴求才會去提到說希望能夠將這刑度拉高到死刑但由於我們台灣的法院"},{"start":5953.052,"end":5969.774,"text":"这边的做法法律相关的做法都会有沿用判决判例的这样子的习惯所以我们才会去提出希望能够征定刑法二七一之一条虐杀幼童罪"},{"start":5971.468,"end":5991.868,"text":"目的這是一個宣示性的法條條項款目裡面我們故意拉到條這個層級是希望能夠作為提醒之用那如果說因為畢竟還是需要在在刑法第286條做修改"},{"start":5993.004,"end":6022.015,"text":"那后续我们也希望能够286条他的刑度最低刑度能够10年有期徒刑调高到20年有期徒刑以上因为我们实在不想要再看到下一个凯凯我们台湾已经少子化多年了我们真的没有多少孩子能够在这样子被虐死了看到保护服务司的统计数字"},{"start":6023.803,"end":6032.338,"text":"近三年六十八個孩子被虐死我們還有多少孩子可以這樣子被淋虐到死"},{"start":6040.376,"end":6060.938,"text":"那我们知道我们有去了解其实是保护服务师这方面都在做这种儿少保护的工作但是他的成绩过低导致他的权限以及他公文程序整个跑下来耗费的时间其实过长"},{"start":6063.157,"end":6070.948,"text":"所以我們希望拉高層級強化熱跨部會跨機關的合作橫向的整合"},{"start":6072.799,"end":6095.309,"text":"那我們會訴求提高拉高到那個部的層級原因是因為如果他是設立為兒童署署的層級我們的兒少權益一向很弱勢如果是放在署的層級他終究資源跟經費還是要再跟其他的署去做瓜分所以我們會希望說"},{"start":6103.036,"end":6118.261,"text":"難保哪一天不會因為資源或者經費的短缺又再一次發生漏接孩子的慘劇所以我們才會希望拉高這個兒少保護專責單位的層級拉高到部的層級另外我們提出訪視助理員制度希望一來可以來去解決社工人手不足的問題"},{"start":6134.627,"end":6141.004,"text":"來去歧視社工的訪視量針對每個學齡前的幼童來進行預防性的訪視"},{"start":6147.782,"end":6165.933,"text":"那這裡頭就會需要有兒少保護專責的醫師來進行進行耳內辨識的耳內辨識的教育訓練對於檢警對於社工對於社政甚至教育方面來去做相關的耳內辨識的教育訓練"},{"start":6168.737,"end":6185.24,"text":"那擴編社工人力希望衛福部這邊能夠去調整將人額制把它放寬讓社工的人力能夠增加來提高兒女處理的效能"},{"start":6188.106,"end":6209.905,"text":"另外第六个我们要破除重大儿孽通报机制的漏息我们台湾现在重大儿孽通报机制这个重大儿孽孩子其实已经是到快断气的状态才要进行紧急安置所以变成这个制度上是默许儿童再送回去继续受孽"},{"start":6211.556,"end":6236.556,"text":"其实孩子走到司法甚至走到医疗很多绝大多数是非死即残的状态所以我们才会希望能够有建立一个在前端抢救孩子的机制那保护服务师其实是非常的努力今天卫福部次长部长及的长官没有到场我们其实感到有点难过"},{"start":6237.554,"end":6249.882,"text":"因為師長未必能夠有多大的決定權那希望今天衛福部出席這個長官能夠將我們的訴求我們的心聲帶回去給衛福部的長官那由於之前有委員在他的臉書黃委員在他臉書上有提到行政院長"},{"start":6267.06,"end":6289.951,"text":"在總諮詢的時候有提出預計5月6月會提出的具體的建議案就是兒少專責單位的具體建議案我想請衛福部長官能夠給我們回覆這個專責單位具體建議案進度是為何是否能夠在6月底告訴我們這個最後的結果"},{"start":6295.342,"end":6301.117,"text":"主席再給我一點時間謝謝那我們期望這個專責單位"},{"start":6304.758,"end":6327.929,"text":"能够安排在12月24号进行揭牌仪式因为这是凯凯这个孩子两周年的忌日他是希望能够换未来所有孩子平平安安长大我希望卫福部长官这边能够含附给我们给我们一定的承诺可以吗"},{"start":6330.68,"end":6337.653,"text":"最後請大家一起所有民眾一起持續兼顧政府因為我們民眾才是民主社會的主人謝謝"},{"start":6340.632,"end":6361.521,"text":"那剛剛發言人所說的部分我麻煩衛福部可以在一週內回覆給發言人那也麻煩一份給我的辦公室那另外剛剛發言人所提到的韓國的法制那這部分再麻煩司法院以及法務部能夠參考那下一位我們請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":6378.512,"end":6401.663,"text":"謝謝主席各位先進 各位親愛的家人 大家早安我們今日集在這裡就僅僅為了一場法律條文修訂的討論而是為了回應社會上一個媽媽心目中寶貝的生命"},{"start":6405.1,"end":6425.377,"text":"以及超過13萬公民這個不只是公民是13萬的家庭的痛在台灣3歲以下的兒童受逆案件逐年增加自從2019年至2023年"},{"start":6430.578,"end":6454.506,"text":"已經增幅高達18.5%這些不只是冰冷的數據而是無數無誅的孩子的悲劇我們必須思考當一個社會無法用法律來保護最脆弱的成員這個社會的正義就在哪裡"},{"start":6455.99,"end":6484.339,"text":"我們要求努力徵定逆同制死罪並在刑度上設立有明確上限是最低底限的最重的處死刑最低不得是假釋之無期徒刑並非趨於明確"},{"start":6486.552,"end":6509.232,"text":"這個非情緒宣示而是基於一個理性法律系統對極端惡行因回應的必要補充從刑法的制度脈絡來看目前對於非肆意殺人但造成死亡犯罪例如"},{"start":6510.413,"end":6538.878,"text":"刑法第328條第三項的強盜致死罪即使無殺人犯意據能依法判處此刑面對以持續系統性虐待方式導致優而死亡的案件更應有對等的刑責機制"},{"start":6541.055,"end":6560.649,"text":"比例原則並不是一套的記載化的組結標準而是一種社會共識與法律價值之間的 橫貧的工具當社會普遍認為 利同致死之類犯罪"},{"start":6561.98,"end":6586.706,"text":"其殘酷性與不可逆性的超越了社會可忍受的道德底線當人民要求國家應該用最嚴厲的手段防止未來同樣的憾事重演這本身就是比例原則最核心的思維基本"},{"start":6587.978,"end":6611.895,"text":"使刑法與犯罪的實質惡性被害人的脆弱性相對稱並回應社會對正義的呼聲在此狀況下入法務部就一句與比例原則不符就拒絕納入討論不僅是13萬"},{"start":6618.39,"end":6642.146,"text":"人連署還侵蝕了13萬的家庭更是對法律進一步的機制的背景法務部作為國家形式的政策組織機關應應民意的對話而非依偎的固守法條的表面"},{"start":6643.396,"end":6670.101,"text":"否則社會將繼續懷疑法務法律居然是為誰來而設是否只保護施害者的程序權利卻永遠無法為受害者發聲我們今天所倡議的是希望通過明確這主力的立法的信號告訴社會"},{"start":6672.274,"end":6695.391,"text":"對於極端沒有人性的溺兒的行為國家不會容忍司法不會冷漠我們必須建立一道制度最後的防線讓這些砸害人知道溺殺無辜的幼兒不是會僅僅是一場幾年"},{"start":6699.941,"end":6720.108,"text":"行其可以赎罪的恶行而是对人性底线的挑战必须最严厉的刑法应对并立法并不是为了保护而是为了让社会记住这条法稍抵了生命少子化"},{"start":6728.479,"end":6755.225,"text":"孩子的生命是媽媽心目中的寶貝不只新聞的標誌更不是法治進步的引路燈今天我們不是不只是修修改法律我們要重建了社會對司法爭議的信任讓人民知道生命的寶貝讓大家知道"},{"start":6756.752,"end":6778.187,"text":"孩子是媽媽心目中的寶貝我們13萬的家庭呼應我們法務部呼應我們政府要重視我們一起努力全國的媽媽加油謝謝謝謝麥委員那下一位我們請蔡主任檢察官發言"},{"start":6790.376,"end":6811.962,"text":"朝委與會的各位長官然後以及各位先進大家好我是桃園地檢署蔡佩珊那很榮幸受邀到這邊來表達有機會表達可以第一線講官的想法那以下僅為個人的意見不代表機關的立場那因為時間有限就是直接進入今天討論的議題"},{"start":6813.762,"end":6832.814,"text":"第一個議題有關於虐殺兒童的相關刑責法制有沒有測定之處在討論這個議題之前我們必須要先設立一個前提事實是如果假官在調查之後認為已經涉犯殺人罪這時候假官起訴的條文應該會是刑法271條第一項"},{"start":6836.636,"end":6854.598,"text":"以及如果被殺害的是兒童那會依照兒童及少年福利與權益保障法來加重其刑的起訴那如果說這時候依照客觀的事證沒有辦法直接證明這個部分是具備殺人的故意"},{"start":6855.419,"end":6882.933,"text":"那殺人跟所謂的加重結果犯的差異點在於如果今天一個A想要殺B他的目標就是他拿著一把槍對他射擊那麼這個就是一個殺人的直接故意但如果今天是對於一個孩子可能給他食不飽每天讓他沒有吃飽然後沒有睡好用凌虐的方式持續地造成他的死亡結果"},{"start":6884.013,"end":6900.561,"text":"這時候未必就會構成一個殺人的情況那在不同的情形之下適用的法律規定本來就不一樣如果本來就已經構成殺人的情形這時候依照刑法271條本來就已經有一個死刑的法定刑"},{"start":6901.761,"end":6929.41,"text":"那再來這一次條文參考的是刑法三二八條第三項前段有關於犯強盜罪因而致人於死處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑的這個條文喔那比照條文應該是刑法二八六條的第三項那大家不能忽視的一件事是喔刑法三二八條第三項的制定其實它早在民國二十四年一月一號就已經制定了"},{"start":6930.31,"end":6958.652,"text":"當時的法定刑規定是但強盜罪因而致人於死者是處四刑或者是無期徒刑而在九十一年一月三十日進行修正增加了十年以上有期徒刑的選項那大家都知道我國已經把兩公約已經徹底的入國法化那總統也在九十八年公佈兩公約的施行法並且在九十八年的十二月十號正式施行"},{"start":6960.093,"end":6985.882,"text":"在兩公約裡面的條文以及後續的公正公約第36號的一般性意見第34點的點次裡面其實有明白的揭示締約國不得在批准公約時或其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪行轉變為死刑罪他的意思是指什麼呢指的就是如果在兩公約內國法化的當下這個法定刑是有死刑的"},{"start":6986.562,"end":7003.56,"text":"那麼我們本來就可以依照這樣的規定逐步的進行對此的討論但如果說在兩國約內國法化的當時這樣的條文本身並沒有一個死刑的選項那我們是不是可以再增列死刑的判死刑的刑度"},{"start":7004.581,"end":7030.418,"text":"這樣子應該還是要審慎的考量當然也有一些專家學者可能會討論說一般性意見是不是能夠拘束相關的機關但這個部分我們不能忽視再來有關於公正公約第六條的第二項剛討論的是一個程序上的問題接下來進到公正公約第六條第二項它其實明白的皆是非犯情節最重大之罪"},{"start":7031.218,"end":7045.383,"text":"而且依照犯罪史有效並且與公約規定以及防止跟懲治殘害人群罪公約不得抵觸的法律不得科除死刑那什麼叫做非犯情節最重大之罪呢在"},{"start":7046.907,"end":7074.142,"text":"憲法法庭113年 憲判自第8號他的理由上面有提出來包括直接故意 概括故意 跟則一故意直接故意我剛剛有舉例做過說明那所謂的概括故意是什麼意思呢意思就是 今天有一個A他想要把手榴彈丟在一個房子裡面他知道他把手榴彈丟進這個房間裡面在房間裡面的人可能會死"},{"start":7074.682,"end":7096.592,"text":"可是死的是誰他不在乎這叫概括故意但如果今天這個某A他知道房子裡面有B或C在裡面我把手榴彈丟進去之後可能會造成B或C其中一個人死亡的結果或兩個人死亡的結果而這件事情也不違反我的本意那麼這時候A有可能的他就是一個擇一故意的情形"},{"start":7098.547,"end":7118.784,"text":"那再來第二個部分有關於無期徒刑得不得假釋這個議題其實無期徒刑不得假釋等同就是終身監禁也就是永久與外界隔離那這個部分跟現行的監獄處獄的方向其實是完全不同的目前監獄處獄的方向是希望"},{"start":7120.205,"end":7142.254,"text":"收容人有機會可以復歸社會有機會因為教化的功能而最後回到社會那如果說今天我們的整個監獄的功能已經走向他要終身監禁那麼要考量的反而就是怎麼樣在監所裡面讓這個受刑人終老終生這個部分的規劃可能要重新的再做討論"},{"start":7145.748,"end":7163.784,"text":"那另外假釋的目的其實是鼓勵受刑人的改過之心給予受刑人提前出獄重返自由社會以利他更生的機會那如果說我們單獨設定滅統案件這個部分而不能假釋有可能會有違反平等原則的議題喔"},{"start":7165.868,"end":7187.023,"text":"那最後有關於被害人參與刑事訴訟部分呢我的意見是比較開放的就是任何有機會讓被害人的家屬被害人的本人能夠有機會在法庭上表達意見以及他們的立場的機會這個部分我都是認同的那最後最後我想要利用這個時間"},{"start":7188.764,"end":7205.106,"text":"作為第一線的檢察官我特別想要談的就是說在兩公約內國法化的現在要不要整理死刑我們確實要慎重以待這也是為什麼大家要齊聚一堂坐在這裡的原因那憲判制第八號其實也提到"},{"start":7206.127,"end":7225.51,"text":"所謂的死刑作為最重本性的部分他僅得適用於個案犯罪情節最嚴重而且刑事程序符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序的要求但同時他也在主文的第六項這邊提到需要和議庭法官的一致決這是什麼意思呢"},{"start":7226.01,"end":7249.717,"text":"自從112年1月1號國民法官法施行之後現在只要故意致人於死的案件一定是進到國民法官的法庭進行審理喔那國民法官法針對這個部分判處死刑原本在第83條第三項有關於苛刑的評議在包含國民法官跟法官雙方意見都要過半數的意見決定"},{"start":7250.757,"end":7277.105,"text":"但死刑的科處因為是剝奪一個人的生命權這個部分必須要慎重以待當時立法者就已經選擇了要包含國民法官跟法官雙方意見在內達三分之二以上的同意不得為之意思就是說今天如果是一位職業法官加上五位國民法官認為要判處死刑可不可以判處死刑 可以"},{"start":7277.825,"end":7305.493,"text":"但如果今天是兩位執業法官四位國民法官認為要判處死刑可不可以可以今天如果是三位執業法官跟三位國民法官認為要判處死刑可不可以可以但是大法官這一次不好意思憲法法庭這一次在113年憲判第八號主文第六號所謂的合議庭法官一致決的意思就是刑事庭法官必須要三位都贊同死刑"},{"start":7306.453,"end":7333.099,"text":"這時候才有辦法判決死刑意思就是假官在偵查犯罪認為構成所謂的故意殺人罪而提起公訴我們在整個認定的過程認為屬於情節最嚴重之罪認為應該判處死刑然而只是單純在刑事庭的法官欠缺一人的同意之下即便達到國民法官法83條第三項的規定仍然無法判處死刑"},{"start":7334.339,"end":7363.09,"text":"這個部分我舉一個比較極端的例子有可能有可能是國民法官的六位都願意判處死刑職業法官的兩位也願意判處死刑但唯獨就是一位刑事庭的法官他認為沒辦法判處死刑這時候我們還是不能判處死刑在憲判自主文第六項的情形喔那這個也讓與會先進想一件事情喔"},{"start":7363.81,"end":7389.902,"text":"這是不是跟我們一開始導入國民法官法希望讓民意進入法庭的這個目的有所焊隔何義廷法官的一致決已經實質限縮了死刑宣告的範圍所以縱使我們今天在談論什麼樣條文要針對刑法要針對法定刑要針對死刑可是既然已經實質限縮死刑宣告的範圍"},{"start":7390.822,"end":7405.4,"text":"那這個部分到底是所謂的司法主席不好意思再給我一點時間這部分到底是一種司法的造法嗎司法造法的前提必須是有一個漏洞要去填補所謂的填補漏洞就是例如"},{"start":7406.121,"end":7431.897,"text":"新北市衛生局他的女僱員跳樓的案件當時他已經在人事處的人員裡面去陳述了這部分法庭以外的陳述在目前刑事訴訟法的傳聞法則例外沒有規定這時候法院去准用傳聞法則例外這叫做補漏 這叫司法造法但現行的情形是這部分是否有漏洞呢這部分如果沒有漏洞"},{"start":7432.898,"end":7456.365,"text":"那這個樣的司法造法是不是已經逾越原本的司法權是不是有逾越權利分立原則的疑慮呢最後我想要引用加拿大安大略法醫辦公室那邊的一個想法他們說我們必須要保護我們必須要為死者發聲才有辦法保護現在生存的人"},{"start":7457.662,"end":7479.915,"text":"那與會的各位先進我們現在正在做這樣的事情喔那我是希望說經過這次的討論那我們也必須要嚴正的面對113年度憲判制第八號對於程序上以及未來可能造成的影響以及拘束喔 以上謝謝好 謝謝蔡警官那下一位我們請蕭理事長來 請蕭理事長發言 謝謝"},{"start":7499.568,"end":7522.064,"text":"趙偉 各位專家學者各位關心虐童刑責法制相關議題的各位夥伴大家早安 大家好我必須先說明我真的不算什麼專家學者我是全國家長團體聯盟的理事長代表的是一般的家長那"},{"start":7525.68,"end":7545.953,"text":"就我們一般民眾非法律人而言今天從相關的一些主管機關的報告還有我們專家學者所提的一些報告那對於比如說像有提到違反跟其他罪行的比例原則或平等原則"},{"start":7547.814,"end":7571.327,"text":"這樣的問題還有包括比如說剛剛有提到說沒有自救者沒有自救能力者並不只兒童那如果今天就以沒自救者只單純就兒童的部分去修這個法的話可能也會有剛剛所提的一些比例原則平等原則的問題那剛剛也提到了"},{"start":7573.257,"end":7592.936,"text":"唯一死刑不符合司法裁量權的問題那也提到了是否要設唯一死刑是否是最嚴重犯罪的問題那剛剛也提到"},{"start":7595.189,"end":7623.519,"text":"有很多可能是直接故意或是間接故意或是概括故意或是責一故意這樣的因素所以會有不同的刑法的考量那這些對我們家長來講是一串的一堆的法律名詞但是就我們情感面而言"},{"start":7627.216,"end":7652.308,"text":"我們所提到的所謂故意凌虐且殺害兒童跟凌虐致兒童死亡我想如果用白話講就是一個是故意本來就是要凌虐兒童就是要死啊那另外一個只是他凌虐他之後可能不是故意要他死但是他死了但是就情感面而言"},{"start":7654.346,"end":7681.307,"text":"今天你把一個兒童長期的凌虐到死這樣的一個嚴重程度我就剛剛講的就情感面而言他真的沒有比故意凌虐且殺害兒童嚴重嗎那他是不是我們剛剛所談的所謂的最嚴重犯罪這個層面那他是不是屬於是屬於哪一種故意的"},{"start":7682.952,"end":7709.898,"text":"致死的一個模式我想這些是我們在法律層面要去考量的一些問題但是我要呼籲的是我們今天就我們今天民眾的角度家長的角度凌虐致兒童死亡真的不比故意凌虐殺害兒童嚴重嗎他應該受到的處罰"},{"start":7712.096,"end":7738.558,"text":"不應該是唯一死刑或者不得假釋嗎或許剛剛我們也有提到說我們剛剛有家長代表也提到說我們並不追求一定要唯一死刑但是怎麼去加重其刑我想相關的一些法律"},{"start":7740.788,"end":7762.825,"text":"後續我想需要更多專家學者還有我們相關主管機關的進一步的研究那就我收到的資料裡面有我們司法部法務部跟衛福部的報告裡面就衛福部的報告而言我在裡面所看到的"},{"start":7764.773,"end":7790.278,"text":"大概我只看到一句重點就提到說本部將配合法務部凝聚共事延商處理其他大概是在談預防的部分我覺得跟今天的主題也沒有完全的相關那整個內容給我感覺是非常空洞唯一我看到的就是我剛剛講的要配合法務部凝聚共事延商處理那我再去看法務部給的報告裡面"},{"start":7791.598,"end":7818.932,"text":"我大概看到最多的大概就是要通盤檢討廣納各界意見競速評估及研議修法一樣我看不到明確的內容所以我這邊再一次呼籲就是我們的主管機關我們希望就剛剛前面其他專家學者所提就這個修法的部分是不是給我們一個明確的期程"},{"start":7820.646,"end":7840.271,"text":"然後什麼時候可以提出草案什麼時候可以進立法院什麼時候可以三讀通過可以給我們一個很明確的期程這是我們家長所想要看到的那另外今天的一個主題提到被害人"},{"start":7841.987,"end":7863.902,"text":"參與刑事訴訟的時候是否應該有獨立上訴權、結論權、證據調查申請權這些相關的包括民事訴訟法、國民法官法、少年事件處理法這些保障被害人權益的一些相關的議題在這邊我們要表達站在家長立場我們支持這個部分"},{"start":7865.049,"end":7890.504,"text":"我們認為被害人應該要有獨立上訴權、結論權跟證據調查申請權這個部分我們也予以支持那最後我再一次呼籲我們所有的主管機關還有拜託我們所有的專家學者針對這個議題給予我們所有的民眾、家長在情感上"},{"start":7892.64,"end":7911.056,"text":"應該如何加重期刑然後如何讓這樣的一個殘暴的人能夠付出應有的代價希望我們在近期內可以得到很明確的一個期懲跟恢復以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":7919.295,"end":7946.036,"text":"好 謝謝 那法務部的法務部要麻煩你們要我請問一下剛剛理事長所提到的期程那請問一下法務部這邊有沒有辦法現在告訴我們大概期程是怎麼樣我們預計三個月之內提出到行政院好 那這樣子我想說在場大家都聽到那理事長也知道就是法務部說三個月內提出來好 謝謝那接下來我們請誰要代理"},{"start":7947.051,"end":7947.491,"text":"那請吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":7966.55,"end":7993.938,"text":"好我想今天我們排這個我排這個公聽會主要就是社會上面孽兒的事件越來越高那我自己在擔任警察官的時候我也非常痛恨這種對於未成年的幼童或者是對於老人或是對於有一些智障 身障的人你去欺負他們尤其是手腳健全的人去欺負一些手無縛肌之類的人像這種我覺得"},{"start":7995.738,"end":8006.567,"text":"從正義的角度去思考 從法治的角度去思考對這些人都完全不值得去放過他們我們應該在法治上面能夠給他們最大的懲罰"},{"start":8009.022,"end":8028.265,"text":"那我想我們從數據上面來看其實從19年到2023年這一段時間我們新生兒的人數一直在下降但是我們對於虐童的部分尤其是未滿3歲的幼兒的虐待這個反而數據是往上提升的"},{"start":8028.866,"end":8047.832,"text":"那你能想像說對一個小孩子他可能連燙是什麼都搞不清楚的情況下那你卻對他虐待你卻拿東西去燙他等等的這個作為有時候我們都難以想像那我想在座非常多人都是為人父母啊那我們小朋友小時候他打個噴嚏咳嗽個兩聲我們都擔心得要命"},{"start":8051.073,"end":8061.864,"text":"那你能想像如果說今天他是在外面受到有某些人對他去施以身體上面凌虐或精神上面的凌虐你身為一個父母你是什麼樣的心情"},{"start":8062.813,"end":8090.744,"text":"那更何況我們講人不獨子其子啊每個小孩都是我們要去愛護不管他是誰的小孩那李韻大同篇就有跟我們講過這句話所以我們對於每一個小孩不管他是誰的小孩我們都要盡全力去保護他我想這是我們每一個身為成年人我們的義務不管男女不管你今天的想法國籍黨派等等的我們就是要保護這些未成年人更何況啊以我自己第一線的司法實務經驗"},{"start":8092.793,"end":8120.81,"text":"黑數一定更多有更多的小朋友他不知道怎麼樣去表達或是很多父母他不知道怎麼樣去求爭取這些救援所以有更多的犯罪黑數我們沒看到那在現有已經曝光的事情來看就有這麼多的案子這麼多讓我們那種不忍心再看下去的事情所以我想說我們大家都身為爸爸媽媽我們很能夠知道"},{"start":8122.037,"end":8148.01,"text":"愛護小孩子的那種感覺很多時候我們甚至我看到小孩子發燒在那邊很難過一直在哭我都希望去承擔他的這個痛苦所以我常跟很多人講我說如果我有99條命的話我會願意為我兒子死100次這是每一個父母對小孩子的感覺那所以我覺得今天我在社會上面我們更要去保護這些小孩"},{"start":8149.485,"end":8168.695,"text":"那我想這次有關虐童案件的修法的連署那社會上面有13萬人那當然我個人是這樣子我覺得任何公共議題本來就會有正反不同的想法各種公共議題都是如此所以當各種公共議題大家提出來的時候是值得討論的"},{"start":8169.776,"end":8186.445,"text":"尤其是專業的機關譬如說法務部 譬如說司法院像剛剛黃國昌委員說的絕對不能有專業的傲慢而是你必須停下腳步來聽聽人民的聲音那多溝通就我剛剛說的公共政策一定是有贊成有反對"},{"start":8187.105,"end":8216.608,"text":"那這時候就是坐下來好好的溝通去找出一個平衡點或是最大的公約數那這時候我們就可以來去進行相關的修法而不是墨守成規而不是像法務部一開始就是拒絕跟外界溝通當然我知道後來部長有出來緩霞有出來說他會再研議嘛那部長當然後來有做這樣的想法但是一開始的那個的反應其實是讓非常多的社會團體以及非常多的父母"},{"start":8217.388,"end":8236.34,"text":"很不滿無法接受我想還是要麻煩法務部及司法院能夠拜託知道這個點不能有專業的傲慢真的要聽聽外界在想什麼更何況法律是解決社會問題的一個東西是我們人類生存在這個社會上面大家遵守的所以今天不要拿法律的設計怎麼樣"},{"start":8243.772,"end":8264.878,"text":"來強制要求人民你只能聽我們專業法律者對於法律的解釋我覺得這是不對的 絕對是不對的所以我還是在這邊以民意代表的身份我還是希望喊話我們的政府機關在面對這種極端惡行的情況下真的要給社會一個回應"},{"start":8267.267,"end":8292.653,"text":"因為司法已經是最後一道防線了我不可能要求每個人都有高尚的道德但是我至少可以卑微的要求大家守法吧至少可以卑微要求大家守法那訂出一個對於未成年人一些嬰幼兒能夠給他們保障的法律這不就是我們的責任嗎那如果說現在的政府一直在那邊說這個框架之下"},{"start":8294.04,"end":8321.914,"text":"我認為說這虐童虐待致死後面那個致死是過失致死他不是有殺人的故意你一直存在這個框架之下那你怎麼跟人民去溝通更何況我國還有刑法328條第三項的規範不是毫無這樣子的司法設計的例子所以我還是蠻希望說政府不要站在人民的對立面你聽聽人民在想什麼再怎麼樣人民是最大"},{"start":8322.984,"end":8328.578,"text":"我們是民主國家所以請法務部 請司法院還是要"},{"start":8329.912,"end":8355.112,"text":"注意這個點那對於這次的修法 我覺得我有幾個角度 我想提供來給大家參考我覺得第一個就是說 我剛剛提到 一再三提到的這個社會共識 它會隨著時間在變化請大家一定要注意 所有的東西不是一成不變所有的法治也都是在看 怎麼樣去適合這個社會上面的需求"},{"start":8356.87,"end":8380.789,"text":"這個非常的重要那第二個我要提到的就是我剛剛講了刑法328條第三項已經有財產犯罪的強盜致死的時候的死刑規範並不是我國的法治 毫無這樣子的規定所以當有這樣子的規範存在的時候然後你又跟我講說現行法治不行 比例原則不行"},{"start":8382.148,"end":8406.459,"text":"那再怎麼樣 凌虐他還是對於生命身體法義耶那你財產法義都可以做這樣的規範了那為什麼保護密度要更高的生命身體法義你卻認為不需要這樣規範我覺得這個就完全不合理這也不是法律的基本概念那我覺得很多時候我們看犯罪的情節輕重也不是說只看主觀犯意啦你也要看被害者"},{"start":8407.219,"end":8432.904,"text":"他們的狀況是怎麼樣小朋友他毫無反擊之力啊他甚至連自己被凌虐被侵害他都搞不清楚他以為這就是人生因為他才小他什麼都不懂所以更需要我們知道我們懂的人下去用力的保護他那剛剛其實理事長以及那個劉教授教育理事長劉教授都有提到未必故意這個概念我也是想說"},{"start":8435.185,"end":8462.826,"text":"因為畢竟我們現在已經是廢止那個判例的制度了嘛那我們都是尊重每一個個案法官檢察官的獨立判斷但是至少在教育訓練的時候在教育訓練的時候是不是可以把這個概念能夠告訴全國的法官檢察官很多時候是不是他可能他是符合未必故意的這個邏輯而不是一律就是凌虐致死"},{"start":8464.059,"end":8487.987,"text":"因為你今天跟一般我們刑法上面傷害制止有一點不太一樣很多時候你對成年人的傷害這個成年人他已經是一個發育完全身體的那個抵抗力等等的都是發育完全的他跟一個小朋友不一樣啊小朋友甚至連自己受傷要打電話叫救護車求救他也不會那這個時候是不是你有可以去思考到未必故意的這個概念"},{"start":8490.15,"end":8510.922,"text":"而選擇的是271條所以這個是我們值得我們去思考的一個點但是因為我們不可能干涉個案所以這個可以落實在日常的教育訓練裡面在告訴法官檢察官你在審理案件的時候其實你還有另外一個思考的模式因為未必故意它是我國的法律制度的一部分"},{"start":8511.903,"end":8525.329,"text":"它是我國存在的東西所考的過司法官考試人他一定懂我在講什麼那師父可以在教育訓練裡面放入這個概念他今天他等同於殺人罪的喔他不是一個凌虐後的過失致死"},{"start":8527.111,"end":8544.92,"text":"所以這兩個東西我想說還是必須要呼籲我們的政府機關能夠思考一下這個地方因為很多時候你要正視人民的聲音你要換位去思考而不是很多事情你造成民怨的一直問題很多了然後才來這邊"},{"start":8546.761,"end":8556.666,"text":"一堆麻煩 那我也蠻認同剛剛那個蔡佐恩檢察官他所提到的一個點也是我們現在社會一直迴避的一個點就是我們忘記告訴大家"},{"start":8557.885,"end":8582.172,"text":"為什麼 為什麼 像譬如說為什麼我這次會提出一個反對那個死刑一字決的這個公投為什麼會提出這個 其實就是因為那個一字決有問題嘛那像剛剛蔡主任檢察官他有提到一個點就是六個國民法官加兩個專業法官大家認為要判死刑結果會被一個專業法官認為不要判死刑而全盤推翻"},{"start":8583.132,"end":8607.952,"text":"那這個也是我國現行制度的一個大問題那如果這樣子下去那也會像剛剛有專家學者說會不會我們立了一個法律一個死刑在那裡但是實務上面卻完全無法適用這個將來有可能會發生完全不可能有這樣的死刑判決的結果出現我想這個都是我們要去注意到的啦更何況FACE這個概念除了是"},{"start":8609.929,"end":8634.611,"text":"那個執政黨黨綱之外他常也引用兩公約但兩公約對於這個何謂最嚴重之罪卻到現在也都沒有一個明確的說法所以我想我們點出了這些問題不管怎麼樣我覺得最終我的目的還是一個不管今天你的國籍為何你的性別為何你的政治傾向為何保護幼童"},{"start":8635.959,"end":8664.593,"text":"是我們的最大公約數一定我們要盡全力去做到所以當一個政府啊我們這個政府的社會福利制度等等無法保障未成年的小朋友這些幼童無端被殺死的時候你至少要確保這些行為人在做完這些壞事之後政府司法制度有辦法對它施以一個相當的刑度例如終身監禁或死刑"},{"start":8665.649,"end":8694.832,"text":"我覺得這個是有它存在的必要性所以今天我們還開這個公聽會我覺得這個公聽會也是我一直以來我從當立法委員以來我一直希望的就是保障弱勢因為我其實我很多次我公開講我說李韻大同篇的那幾句話影響我這輩子非常深我覺得啊你一定要做勞有所終壯有所用幼有所長關寡孤獨廢棄者皆有所養這個東西就是老中青"},{"start":8696.266,"end":8708.428,"text":"小孩子保護他讓他平安長大青壯年人讓他有工作老人讓他能夠安享晚年社會弱勢殘疾者我們要讓他能夠有好的生活"},{"start":8709.87,"end":8736.46,"text":"幾千年前的人就告訴我們這個為什麼我們今天還做不到所以我一直很堅持在修法上面以及我做任何事情上面一定要圍繞著這個邏輯去轉所以我才會今天安排這個公聽會不然在很多法律制度都還需要修正的時候我們還是希望這個公聽會非常的重要要為小朋友發聲要為社會團體發聲這是我一直以來我的想法好 謝謝各位"},{"start":8746.718,"end":8775.055,"text":"好 下一位我們請王理事長好 主席各位委員還有各位專家學者還有我們的官員大家好那我是國教行動聯盟理事長王漢陽那既然今天是回應民意當然我們今天也要帶著民意來這個現場去告訴大家到底民意目前現在的狀況是如何有點跳到 等一下喔好 等一下"},{"start":8783.411,"end":8800.658,"text":"民意狀況是如何那這次案件非常嚴重的就是我們知道的凱凱虐童的致死案件其實根據所有的這些數據調查來當中其實108年到113年來每年平均快20個虐童致死的案件"},{"start":8801.158,"end":8818.02,"text":"也是說這五年多來已經有103個虐童致死的案件但看到我們司法院目前的一個狀態的一個數據可以知道他在判刑當中有六罪是判無期徒刑到最高法院是九罪判無期徒刑"},{"start":8818.621,"end":8846.81,"text":"各位可以去知道有103件虐童案件平均每年20個虐童致死但刑期的狀況是如何大家可以知道再來凱凱案這一次的一個案件所有全國人民都在觀看這麼嚴重的一個情形但檢察官為何他沒有起訴到更嚴重的一個罪行而是往刑法286去走呢大家可以去思考一下因為在往這方面去走"},{"start":8847.25,"end":8858.684,"text":"很多地方在直接故意當中有一些相對的難度但從往286去走一直到宣判下來可以知道一件事情民意到底覺得這樣對還不對或夠還不夠就我們國教行動聯盟做的一個調查報告"},{"start":8863.249,"end":8889.686,"text":"在四天九十六個小時做一個快速調查報告接觸一萬七千八百多位民眾當中有九千零二十四份扣除掉重複IP有八千七百二十四份的有效問卷的數據高達四十八點八九可以顯示民眾持續到現在對於這個案情非常的熱也非常的在意但顯示第一個數據我們可以看到一件事情"},{"start":8890.226,"end":8904.679,"text":"就是92.1%就像我剛才說的認為刑法的罪行還是太重還是太輕所以難以克止目前的一個悲劇目前有8039位一致表達不滿意甚至在執行訪談問卷當中都一直說到"},{"start":8911.185,"end":8924.553,"text":"死刑的一個必要性因為他在這中間當中沒有滿足現在社會的期待就像我剛才講的一個罪刑刑罰當中大家可以去知道這是第一個數據第二個數據在我們這次問卷調查的數據當中89.2%明確的是支持無期徒刑"},{"start":8930.236,"end":8958.432,"text":"不得假釋的規定意思是說在這個當中是否有更有具有這些相關無期徒刑不得假釋的相關的一個可能性在這個我相信在這個現在社會大眾應該要認真來去探討這件事情在就我們意見書當中有將美國目前的實證案例調查出來虐童案件再犯率有15%所以各位可以去想到如果今天我們判無期徒刑"},{"start":8958.932,"end":8978.25,"text":"甚至我們剛才案的一個判例當中有六罪九罪無期徒刑的情形之下25年他就可以做假釋了在我們問卷調查也說明這件事情所以相對的刑期當中不夠之外也會覺得 蛤 怎麼就這樣假釋了呢而且15%的再犯率的情形之下這樣的一個假釋規定還有這樣的一個假釋狀況適不適當"},{"start":8982.013,"end":9010.838,"text":"這是89.2%第三個數據告訴我們一件事情88.6%的是支持強制性的心理治療我們在講到的保安處分當中其實很少去什麼做一些明確的再犯風險評估所以既然有15%當中的一個再犯率那我們有沒有政府去做好明確的再犯風險評估呢或者強制性的做心理治療而放他出來呢如果沒有的情形之下"},{"start":9011.198,"end":9032.47,"text":"我們可以知道這裡面數據大多數的10年有期徒刑不到5年可能就出來了喔那它的再販率依然是這麼高那我相信88.6%的民眾也很清楚知道這樣是不足的最後我們也再問到一個問題好 那重刑不足那是不是真的重刑就能完全的去把"},{"start":9032.87,"end":9053.378,"text":"所有的那個讓那個虐童案去降低呢那其實70.9%的民眾也非常的聰明說不是只有靠重刑重刑是還不夠的還要什麼還要做一個預防所以其實認同重刑之外更要有家庭跟預防的機制在這一次的一個問卷當中96個小時有8724份問卷希望"},{"start":9058.58,"end":9062.884,"text":"我們現在政府官員還有委員當中去重視在這個數據呈現的狀況以上是這次民調數據圖表的顯現那我們繼續往下"},{"start":9073.471,"end":9094.591,"text":"那現行法治到底明顯有沒有不足呢就像我剛才在講到的依照這個問卷調查結果反映出明顯的刑期當中不足一包含說我們現在的286條的一個虐童致死罪10年以上的一個有期徒刑那最高加1 2分之1到15年那以司法院的一個判決當中我們就可以去看到"},{"start":9096.632,"end":9117.601,"text":"66罪是判10年有期徒刑到最高法院是80罪判有期徒刑那我們剛才講的數據103件虐童致死你只有看到80罪是什麼在最高法院當中是判10年有期徒刑更何況他很快就會出院了所以其實在這個制度上面我相信大家會有這樣的一個考量"},{"start":9118.061,"end":9141.278,"text":"再來第二個對無期徒刑當中實務上平均緊扶17.9年他就可以假釋出獄了所以其實大家可以知道無期徒刑17.9年怎麼跟我想像的一個不一樣再來缺乏一個明文規範不得假釋也沒有強制治療跟保安處分所以現行制度有這幾個方面其實是明顯不足的地方"},{"start":9144.508,"end":9168.582,"text":"在國際當中各個國家都有一些相關的包含美國的不得假釋的規定包含南韓也即將在討論不得假釋我相信台灣如果要是一個進步的國家勢必要更加速的要在領先各國當中去討論這件事情再來德國當中有終身監禁加保安監禁定期的評估加再犯的風險評估我相信這個是必要去做採納的"},{"start":9171.698,"end":9200.397,"text":"好在我們的主張呢回到我們的主張第一個條件式的終身隔離勢必要去做考量第一個維持無期徒刑的一個什麼重刑杜絕孽童的一個再犯但服刑滿25年當中需要經過跨專業的團隊風險評估去評估他的再犯風險性我們建議是每三年最少要重新再做一次的一個評估再犯風險性的評估而強制性做一個心理的一個治療"},{"start":9201.958,"end":9227.328,"text":"在這個當中沒有問題的我們會認為這個條件式的一個終身隔離可以去做進行第二個主張第二個主張我們認為要加重最低的刑度考量受害的年齡當受害的年齡就像依照我剛剛在講的數據七歲以下各方面的一個條件都不太一樣的情形之下我們是不是應該要考量"},{"start":9227.768,"end":9255.391,"text":"受害年齡呢去加重最低的刑度最低刑度目前是十年是不是提高到二十年的可能性針對七歲以下的幼童刑度再加上二分之一所以這在明顯的去擴張我們需要保護的對象而且針對我們需要保護的對象呢去強化在這一次當中的一個刑度考量這我覺得在這一次當中需要去注意到的那特別我們第三點"},{"start":9257.024,"end":9279.054,"text":"建立配套措施強制治療跟追蹤管控那各位可以去知道我們在放的一個研究報告當中其實在虐童案的部分其實有關說他心理治療或者降低他的再犯風險有沒有可能呢美國當中的一個報告當中研究報告有出來後面我們有將資料放出來確實能降低24%到36%"},{"start":9281.095,"end":9303.682,"text":"也就是說心理治療還有再犯風險評估如果確實去落實這個保安處分的情形之下他確實是有機會去降低他的再犯風險那要不要做預防那當然要去做預防如果你這個預防不去做的情形之下那就更不可能這個整個制度當中沒有去完整做改善所以我們提出來不管在現在明定91-1劣同致死"},{"start":9304.342,"end":9323.334,"text":"應該要強制病科心理治療跟保安處分受刑人要去接受三年的一個強制治療並且三年當中要重新去評估治療的必要性那出獄高風險者那我們也希望檢察官出獄之後去批准電子的監控跟持續追蹤完成這個相關的一個配套措施"},{"start":9324.114,"end":9340.134,"text":"那最後我們也呼應一下說在這次凱凱案件當中其實我們真的很呼籲成立兒童家庭的專責單位而不是兒童單位而已因為兒童跟家庭當中本該就在一起如果這個方向沒有一次去處理的情形之下"},{"start":9340.655,"end":9363.01,"text":"分散在各部門再加上現在家庭教育的預算我們委員有在常常在質詢一年三億的情形之下你更不可能將這些孩子去接住或甚至不可能去做這樣的一個預防所以我們希望呼籲盡快的去訂這個相關的一個修正的一個法案這樣具體我們將我們今天的意見書也會給我們的委員也會給我們的官員好 謝謝大家"},{"start":9365.418,"end":9381.355,"text":"好 謝謝 那就因為剛剛王理事長有提到這個國外的制度那請法國部務必要參酌那還有剛剛王理事長有提到美國的再犯率是15%那我想請問一下法國部我國的再犯率是多少手上有沒有這個數據"},{"start":9388.257,"end":9407.888,"text":"如果需要資料的話會後再提供好目前沒有這個數據對現在沒有我想說這個非常的重要一定要麻煩法務部要提供這個數據給我們而且要公開公開給社會大眾剛剛發言者有提到美國是15%的再販率那請研究一下我國到底是多少有嗎好那有嗎"},{"start":9417.591,"end":9433.358,"text":"沒有 我們只有一般的一般的再犯例沒有虐童案件再犯例我們要特定虐童案件我們今天主題是這個再麻煩次長就這個部分能夠給我們一下再犯例我想這個是對於修法非常重要好 謝謝次長那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":9436.758,"end":9436.978,"text":"那我們呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":9451.046,"end":9466.864,"text":"主席還有我們與會的學者專家列席的官員還有我們的立委同仁大家好近年屢見家庭暴力與孽童案件那麼社會大眾是非常關注根據內政部統計資料過去十年"},{"start":9467.805,"end":9489.272,"text":"有261位的兒童跟少年遭肆虐死亡其中父母照顧者等家庭成員不當對待致死是235人依契約或職務對兒少有照顧義務之人不當對待致死者為26人因此在朝野共識之下刑法286條在113年7月16日三讀通過"},{"start":9495.214,"end":9511.307,"text":"增加對虐童案件的刑罰力度但是仍然沒有納入死刑從數據來看去年一整年家內受虐致死兒童跟少年是30位這是9年來的新高那如果以7月16日做區分"},{"start":9512.328,"end":9540.91,"text":"換言之在修法之後家外受虐 致死人數三位其中兩起是嚴重虐待 一起是嚴重疏忽反而比修法前的零位還高好所以可以看出現有刑度還沒有達到社會期待來去有效遏止這類事件的發生那麼以凱凱案來說最近有兩位加害者 保姆一位被判無期徒刑 另外一位被判18年有期徒刑"},{"start":9541.63,"end":9564.863,"text":"但是依照現在刑法的77條規定被判無期徒刑要服刑25年才能假釋而18年則是二分之一9年就可以假釋這會出現同一件虐嬰案的加害人那麼他的實際服刑的程度會差非常多所以目前無論是刑度是不是要增加死刑以及限縮"},{"start":9566.064,"end":9583.87,"text":"所謂的虐因犯的假釋規定這都是社會這一波我們非常關注的議題那我自己就有分別提案有的已經一讀包括刑法286條增列死刑那有的還在連述當中刑法77條虐因被判有期徒刑不得假釋"},{"start":9584.71,"end":9600.119,"text":"那麼今天部會報告裡面有沒有看到司法院是反對增列死刑但認為可以增加無期徒刑有期徒刑不得假釋那法務部則認為增列死刑有研議空間那也同樣支持增加無期徒刑有期徒刑不得假釋"},{"start":9601.024,"end":9627.921,"text":"那我是認為不同的意見也就是死刑這一塊可以再來透過我們的公聽會來聽聽學者專家跟受害者家屬的聲音那繼續來去推動修法但是不管怎麼樣講至少針對有共識的不得假釋修法應該要盡速的來推動那尤其是法務部的部分我在質詢時已經提醒過鄭明謙部長那也獲得正面回應"},{"start":9628.781,"end":9645.133,"text":"希望法務部可以提版本 儘速送到立法院來不要像棄保潛逃跟防害司法公正罪一樣法務部一方面說版本已經送給行政院然後行政院又踢皮球說還在審議就讓立法院等了又等都等不到版本來審"},{"start":9646.334,"end":9660.345,"text":"那這陣子在談刑法286條增列死刑時司法院法務部還有很多執政黨委員都說要審慎不宜變動審慎當然是要審慎但也必須提醒刑法286條並不是一個經常被使用的條文"},{"start":9663.587,"end":9691.383,"text":"在2015年到2024年這過去十年當中以地方法院審理的案件來說只有兩年是一件違反280有兩年甚至是一件違反286條裁判都沒有那平均一年是5.7件而這十年當中也有只有一件被判無期徒刑那十年的98件罪次裡面被判五年以上有期徒刑占18件比例不到兩成"},{"start":9692.344,"end":9715.665,"text":"一年以下則是53件 比例是五成四當然不是每一件都是重大的虐待兒童或少女但可能是輕傷但從刑度來講 社會大眾對於這次刑度的期待是相距甚遠所以這也是為什麼我們今天來從刑度來重新整體的檢討那最後 虐童案件"},{"start":9717.106,"end":9741.312,"text":"層出不窮 法治如果沒有跟上 等不到正義 那麼將會是有更多無辜兒童的生命遭到剝奪 那修法針對死刑大概在討論 但針對有期徒刑不得假釋的共識已經形成 那政府這部分應該即刻啟動 不要讓行政部門的怠惰 遲疑變成保護加害人的盾牌 那對於"},{"start":9742.012,"end":9762.18,"text":"虐嬰加害人應該要有應對的一個司法制裁這是社會基本的正義底線也是對受害家庭最起碼的交代那保護孩子我們的立法不能等 謝謝好 謝謝我想請問一下陳夢欣科長"},{"start":9769.418,"end":9794.178,"text":"陳科長請問一下你們那個虐童的再犯例你們有沒有統計有沒有統計報告委員我們的警政署這邊的部分的話再犯率的部分是沒有統計的沒有統計好我了解謝謝好那我們下一位請張明偉副院長"},{"start":9802.202,"end":9803.907,"text":"我們先休息五分鐘,五分鐘一到我們立刻開始"},{"start":10224.2,"end":10225.424,"text":"好 謝謝大家那我們繼續開會那我們接下來請張明偉副院長"},{"start":10240.525,"end":10254.125,"text":"主席 各位長官 各位在座的先進 大家好我是輔仁大學張明偉今天很高興也很榮幸能夠來參加這個公聽會就這個公聽會的主題提供我個人一點意見供大家參考"},{"start":10255.607,"end":10275.916,"text":"首先我們今天溝聽會的召開主要當然是因為凱凱案引發了虐童刑罰是否過輕是否適當的爭議特別是說本案是以虐童致死罪起訴最後只判到無期徒刑跟18年那這樣子似乎社會大眾對這個結果不是很滿意"},{"start":10276.876,"end":10300.502,"text":"那關於這個議題呢其實公共政策的網路參與平台從去年開始就不斷的有一些修法的建議的聲浪那除了有修271條的規定也有主張要修286條的規定那不管這個主張是怎麼樣大概都是認為啊虐童應該用死刑來加以回應那比較符合這個民眾的這個期待那對這個問題啊"},{"start":10302.503,"end":10317.789,"text":"其實法務部這個先前就我看媒體的報導對這個主張的呼籲好像並沒有很積極的回應他主要的這個說法大概就是已經有相關的規範有這個存在的而且"},{"start":10319.21,"end":10333.539,"text":"271條本來就可以處罰殺人罪如果認定有殺人犯意的話是可以用殺人來處罰的那這樣子其實要不要增訂死刑作為刑罰的回應其實好像不是那麼的重要那不過我個人是覺得那這個問題"},{"start":10336.761,"end":10361.845,"text":"真的如法部所講的這麼單純嗎我是比較持存疑的態度因為畢竟如果說271條就可以處罰有關於這個致死的處罰問題的話那我們現行法有關於226條之一332條跟348條這種結合犯的殺人形態似乎你也可以用只有271條也可以解決來加以處理嗎那這樣是不是應該要把相關的結合犯"},{"start":10362.245,"end":10366.852,"text":"也一併刪除了那這個是我第一個質疑那再來其實我們從之前"},{"start":10370.295,"end":10392.618,"text":"這個酒駕致死案其實類似的這個名義也有出現過特別在2019年那時候針對酒駕毒駕違規致死案件是不是應該要修正有死刑的這個爭議那其實後來的修法也增訂了185-3的相關的這個規定但是那個時候因為認為說用加重結果犯"},{"start":10394.738,"end":10414.284,"text":"加重監管的處罰然後賦予死刑的這個刑度是不是有什麼罪行均衡比例原則違反的爭議所以這個185-3的酒駕致死案他也是以無期徒刑來回應所以這個問題其實似乎跟我們今天所討論的凌虐致死案是不是可以用死刑價回應存在這個類似的這個問題存在那這個"},{"start":10419.649,"end":10438.24,"text":"針對酒駕這個問題長期無法用殺人罪來加以起訴這個問題其實我覺得我有過一些思考那我覺得因為我們不斷的剛剛討論的問題都是聚焦在刑法分責要怎麼修正去回應民意那如果分責的修正本身沒有問題或者是說主張271條可以解決這些問題這個主張也沒有問題的話"},{"start":10442.922,"end":10471.176,"text":"是不是總則出了問題我覺得大家可以反過來思考我們刑法分則如果沒有問題的話會不會是我們刑法總則對於故意的定義出現了問題為什麼這麼說因為我們刑法13條對故意有定義性的規定可是這個規定是早在民國24年就制定了那當時或許國際間其他國家對於故意都是用這種方式做規範但是後來其實各國對於故意的"},{"start":10473.657,"end":10498.59,"text":"這個規範啊產生了蠻大的變化譬如說德國已經廢掉了故意跟過失的立法定義對不對那美國啊其實對於主觀構成要件的規範啊主要有四種形態嘛這個除了這個過失一種以外啊它有這個意圖啊有知悉啊有清算是不是那這美國有三種類似故意的主觀構成要件的形態那我國把主觀構成要件的形態只定義成兩種那這兩種是不是"},{"start":10501.491,"end":10516.16,"text":"曲線的所謂的這個故意刑責的適用這我覺得可能有考慮的必要性因為相較於這個德國沒有立法定義美國其實放寬的定義的範圍的角度來看我們的"},{"start":10516.86,"end":10537.554,"text":"故意的定義其實限縮了故意犯罪的適用範圍這是一個很明顯的這個現象那是不是仍然適合這樣子規範我覺得這個刑總方面的問題是有值得進一步檢討的空間不過大家好像都聚焦在刑法分則應該有相對應的修正那我們再來看其實我們反貪公約28條它就明確規定了"},{"start":10540.716,"end":10558.589,"text":"明知故意其實是得依客觀事實予以推定的這個樣子的條文其實跟我們刑法13條是明顯不符的那我們反貪公約其實也內國法化了換言之對於故意的認知如果反貪公約明文肯認可以以推定的方式去做判斷的話"},{"start":10559.329,"end":10576.111,"text":"那為什麼我們的刑法在相關的部分也沒有是相對定的回應這個就是一個法律上會產生正義的存在也就是說如果我們用陝灘公約28條所承認的推定的方式去推論這個被告到底有沒有故意的話那麼在很多啊"},{"start":10576.471,"end":10603.453,"text":"酒駕或者是虐童致死的案件我們要認定這個行為人員故意他的難度似乎就沒有這麼高啦也就是說可以跳脫我們刑法第13條的立法框架的話那如果我們的刑法13條的立法已經不是國際上主流的立法趨勢立法的這個模式的話那我們其實應該要回過頭來去檢討是不是我們應該要去修正我們對於主觀構成要件的這個規範的模式"},{"start":10604.754,"end":10609.235,"text":"既然在討論到修法,我們也不要只侷限於刑法分責範圍的討論。好,那再來,這是我們這次的題,剛剛有討論到說,對於這種加重結果犯的形態,是不是可以處以死刑?那我們現行法有328條做這樣子的規定,因此引發了這樣子的討論。"},{"start":10627.139,"end":10643.812,"text":"事實上我大概解鎖一下我們現行法的規定加重結果如果致人於死我們法律針對效果是無期徒刑的有堵職罪、公共危險罪、傷害罪、遺棄罪、妨害自由罪強盜罪以及毀棄損壞罪這些都有"},{"start":10645.313,"end":10655.222,"text":"用無期徒刑來作為加重結果犯處罰的這個規範那對於致人於死可以判死刑的這個加重結果的規定這個就有185之1 185之2這個就是劫機"},{"start":10660.926,"end":10682.061,"text":"妨礙非常安全還有這個強盜海盜以及魯仁勒贖罪也就是說其實我們今天要討論的286條凌虐致死是不是應該判死刑應該整體加上我們就先來討論這些條文如果可以應該都可以應該不可以都不可以不可以只有說只有286條可以或不可以的這個問題那為什麼會有這樣子的"},{"start":10686.464,"end":10714.404,"text":"這個問題出現我想最主要的就是因為加重結果犯的規範的這個結構因為我們對於加重結果犯的這個規範一般實務的認知都說這個17條的構造它其實是一個故意跟過失的混合那所謂故意跟過失的混合大家注意是我國刑法定義下的故意或過失的混合它不是其他國家立法定義中的故意或過失的混合所以因為它帶有過失的"},{"start":10715.225,"end":10742.464,"text":"本質在裡面就我們十五認定的過失的本質在裡面才會導致於說啊當你一個犯罪的本質是故意加過失的混合他有可能被評價為不屬於最嚴重犯罪的這個結果出現那一旦被評價為不屬於最嚴重犯罪的結果自然就會把兩公約的這個禁止的規定拉進來了所以接下來可能就要去思考啊那這個故意加過失的結合啊是不是"},{"start":10743.665,"end":10763.321,"text":"加重結果犯的本質換句話說如果我們可以調整刑法總則對於故意跟過失本質定義上的這個內涵的話是不是我們也可以進一步去思考那加重結果犯是不是仍然是故意跟過失的結合因為我這兩天看了一個資料"},{"start":10764.282,"end":10789.539,"text":"德國的加重結果犯一般實務都承認說他對於重結果的發生雖然不需要具有故意但是他需要有輕率魯莽的這個本質那如果用輕率本質作為要件的話這基本上就是美國法對於故意犯罪的基本主觀構成要件的要求也就是說這種構成要件的結合型態在美國法的觀念裡他其實是故意加故意不是故意加過時"},{"start":10790.399,"end":10803.406,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話那麼故意加故意的形態導致刑法死刑的結果出現也就不會有違反最嚴重犯罪不得處以死刑的這個禁止限制的這個規定所以我覺得這個是跟這個問題結合在一起的"},{"start":10807.13,"end":10835.338,"text":"然後當然早上林教授有談到重罪謀殺規則我只能講說過失致死這種加重結果犯的架構在英美法或在大陸法系其實是長久存在的一種立法的類型它其實不是這幾年才存在的所以說對於這個加重結果犯可不可以判實刑它就基本上在各國其實都承認但除了歐洲沒有因為它已經廢死了但是在譬如說美國或在亞洲的一些國家其實"},{"start":10836.658,"end":10856.766,"text":"它都有存在這個問題但是如果一定要說它有含過失的成分就不符合情節最重大的犯罪的話這個時候對於286條的規定要處於死刑其實就有一些法治上爭議但是如果沒有的話其實就不會有這樣子的問題主席請再給我幾分鐘"},{"start":10858.174,"end":10875.766,"text":"那最後對於這個刑事政策上可不可以制定終身不得假釋的規定我覺得這應該是刑事政策的問題只要立法者願意這樣子的規範其實問題不太大不過他可能要在組型的部分做一些修正那再來就是說我覺得"},{"start":10877.387,"end":10892.497,"text":"這個終身不得假釋的規定其實應該要調整的其實是少年法因為我們少年法說少年不得判死刑但是少年不得判死刑是不是不得終身不得假釋在我們少年法其實沒規定美國聯邦最高法院從2012年以後的判決"},{"start":10893.557,"end":10911.282,"text":"就已經多次承認了少年只有在致人於死的案件才可以判無期徒刑終生不得假釋也就是說對於少年犯件判無期徒刑他是不是有量刑上的一定限制他其實是受到是否致人於死的犯罪本質加以這個影響然後再來"},{"start":10913.574,"end":10926.569,"text":"關於本罪286條的修正我覺得如果我們還要考量加重結果犯似乎可能會違反罪行不均衡的考慮的話我們似乎可以參考226條"},{"start":10930.573,"end":10950.424,"text":"還有這個三百三十二條三百四十八條的立法模式以這個結合犯的方式來對於這個虐童又故意殺被害人的這種犯罪型態然後這個可以處於死刑當然啦前提還是必須去調整刑法對於故意的這個定義過於狹隘的這樣子的這個問題然後對於被害人的保護我覺得"},{"start":10956.261,"end":10980.192,"text":"這個問題如果參照美國聯邦法制還有聯合國的一些相關的公約來講似乎都不包含上訴權還有結問權這些程序上的權利所以這個擴張被害者的權利其實在法制上特別是採取控訴模式的審判架構下其實會有一些法制上面的疑問存在這個應該要在審慎的評估"},{"start":10982.173,"end":11010.873,"text":"只不過對於寧同案的被害人他年紀很輕的時候怎麼樣保護訴訟上面的權益似乎是可以參考VCAA的相關規範還有聯合國兒童權利公約的規定針對特定類型的案件似乎可以考慮增設訴訟參與人強制待遇的制度這樣子可以透過強制待遇的方式去保障兒童在個案中程序上的權益以上的建議請供大院參考 謝謝"},{"start":11015.978,"end":11042.003,"text":"謝謝副院長對主觀翻譯上面的說明也請法務部參考另外我這邊補充一個就是因為兒童權利公約從108年就已經到現在那麼多年了那我剛期還蠻驚訝的就是說法務部跟警政署竟然對於虐童的再犯率到現在都沒有統計的數據那這樣我們108年的兒童權利公約那不是都推假的了"},{"start":11043.408,"end":11057.191,"text":"我想說我們所有人大家都很支持一定要嚴懲這些虐待兒童的人嘛就這個最基本的數據我們竟然到現在都沒有統計因為這數據一定是我們修法以及解決社會問題一個最重要的依據"},{"start":11058.94,"end":11079.001,"text":"那尤其是再犯率如果高的話那我們對於他的處罰要更嚴重甚至說是不是例如教育訓練做一些預防性羈押等等的這個是都是一些宣導的必要嘛那當然是要從數據上面來看所以麻煩兩個單位一定要趕快把這個數據給我們謝謝好那我接下來我們請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":11083.223,"end":11107.941,"text":"好 謝謝主席五分鐘嘛好 我是培餘過往我在兒童人權的領域工作也在兒童文化出版還有家庭教育所以今天我們既然要談所謂修法的法制總檢討那我今天所要談的就不會只有刑法等一下我會談到民法的1085條還有兒童工作證這件事情也就是說我們在修法之外所有的行政措施還有所有的配套我認為也要一併的討論"},{"start":11109.542,"end":11133.65,"text":"那今天要先謝謝所有願意出席的專家學者給我們寶貴的意見我相信在後續的修法當中大家的意見都非常非常的重要首先我們來看一下刑法修正的部分那目前我們看了所有司法法制委員會各個黨派的委員所提出來的刑法修正草案目前大概有幾個方向第一個無歧途刑不得假釋第二個虐童致死得以處以死刑"},{"start":11134.07,"end":11162.977,"text":"第三个修订加重其行至二分之一的年龄界限当我们看了这些版本之后我们再问除了这些事情之外我们还可以做什么或者是我们也可以再问这些就真的能够解决儿虐事件频传的问题吗我认为所有的修法都可以理性的讨论但是过去在面对儿虐相关事件通常第一时间大家的反应都是谈修正刑法调高刑度的方法来回应"},{"start":11163.977,"end":11175.749,"text":"所謂的民意但我認為除了刑法修正之外所有法規範的配套都必須要一併的討論才能夠促成而虐案可以不要一再的發生那為什麼會這麼說我來舉一個例子我們來看刑法286的修法脈絡"},{"start":11181.235,"end":11201.897,"text":"在一零八年修法新增了第三項第四項有關於加重結果犯的規定到了一一三年又再加重修法到第五項虐待七歲以下兒童加重期刑到二分之一但是呢我們來看凱凱案是在一一二年的年底發生的時間點當時就是用五期徒刑加重結果的時間點"},{"start":11204.04,"end":11220.255,"text":"大家认为调整刑度也许可以遏止犯罪但我要说效果一定有限刚刚有一位先进提到在修法后而虐事件还是数字上升也就是说修法到底回应了民意的什么"},{"start":11220.555,"end":11246.98,"text":"或者是修法又漏回應了什麼我認為在後續的討論一定要持續進行因為如果只是一昧的加重刑責沒有相關的法規範沒有相關資源的配套協助所有人甚至全台灣沒有一個共識叫做不要打小孩不要虐待小孩如果這樣的概念沒有辦法深入每一個台灣人的心中那所有的不幸事件都會一再的發生"},{"start":11247.76,"end":11264.813,"text":"回過來看我剛講第二個部分談了刑法之後我想要談民法1085條我們來看民法1085條這件事情我手上有一個數字我們來看下一張衛福部保護司我們跟你們調了一個資料叫做兒少保護施虐者"},{"start":11266.155,"end":11286.261,"text":"我再一次强调是施虐者的人数统计资料那办公室的同仁非常辛苦把这个资料整理出来第一栏是养父母或是父母第二栏是手足外祖父母或祖父母其他亲属还有同居人以上我们把它叫做所谓的家内虐儿大家可以看到从2019到2024年家内虐儿"},{"start":11289.662,"end":11304.114,"text":"几乎占了所有当年孽儿一半以上的数字什么意思当我们在看凯凯案的时候当我们以为是保姆促成了这个儿孽案让大家痛心的时候大家不要忘记一半以上的数字是发生在家内"},{"start":11305.547,"end":11326.038,"text":"廣泛的家內所以為什麼要談民法1085條也就是當大家所在意的兒虐零容忍這件事情沒有觀看到這個數字我們應該回頭想我們漏了什麼所以我要再次強調當我們談兒虐零容忍的時候請不要區分家內跟家外"},{"start":11326.938,"end":11342.612,"text":"當我們願意認真的面對這個務實的現況的時候我們才知道後續我們還可以做什麼事情所以為什麼每年430我都要呼籲大家所謂430國際不打小孩日並不是只是叫你在這一天不要打小孩"},{"start":11343.092,"end":11360.866,"text":"而是從這一天開始練習不要打小孩也可以管教小孩不要打小孩也可以教養小孩我們可以透過各式各樣的行動透過正向教養的倡議透過用愛心取代打罵透過如何學習跟孩子溝通這都是我們大人可以做的事情而這樣的教養觀念"},{"start":11362.367,"end":11386.541,"text":"回應到法制化正式民法1085條的規定也就是把原來的規定修正為以下的規定叫做父母保護以及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女的人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為我自己也提出修法的版本了當然法務部應該也有版本我要提醒的是"},{"start":11387.782,"end":11411.396,"text":"依照現行的民法1085的規定家長在教養子女的時候本來就不應該我要再次強調本來就不應該做出會對子女造成身心傷害的行為我的提案版本或者是法務部已經有的版本就是想要把這個精神這個概念給明文化彰顯不要讓孩子受到身心暴力虐待的決心但是有了這個決心跟這個法治化後"},{"start":11413.217,"end":11439.124,"text":"到底配套行為會是什麼或是配套的法制配套的規範又是什麼其實剛剛也有很多專家學者或是民間朋友有提到所以我要再次強調除了剛剛說的刑法民法1085也要拜託大家一起關心從這個數字我們再次強調一半以上的兒虐案件是來自於所謂廣義的家內兒虐接下來我要談第三個重要的事情就是"},{"start":11440.044,"end":11460.155,"text":"所有跟孩子们一起工作的大人们样态非常多元不会只有保姆未来我们有运动教练现在其实也有还有学校的教师各式各样的社区运动人员或者是夏利营东利营里面这些老师或者是协助孩子的社工协助孩子的心理师这些"},{"start":11461.355,"end":11483.387,"text":"過往都曾經傳出所謂不適任人員對於孩子們不當的體罰或是性侵性騷不當的對待很多很多的案件都展現出現在台灣這個社會很多大人對於孩子是不夠理解的對於孩子福利是不夠支持不夠全面的所以過往我們在辦公室工作的範圍當中我們也跟很多民間團體共同倡議推廣兒童工作證"},{"start":11486.228,"end":11508.997,"text":"而兒童工作證這件事情之所以困難是來自於大家觀念還沒有建立再來一旦兒童工作證真的要成立那如何讓更多的人是被包括在這個範圍以內但是因為這件事情還在路上所以在那之前我們辦公室做了很多的事情我也要拜託大家未來可以一起關心也就是目前有非常多資料庫"},{"start":11509.717,"end":11526.583,"text":"都可以標示出所有的不適任現場工作人員包含司法單位、社福單位、教育單位都有這些資料庫但這些資料庫它可能不是對所有人公開透明它也不見得適合對所有人公開透明甚至資料庫之間是沒有勾結的"},{"start":11526.923,"end":11546.373,"text":"所以當你的孩子發展到不同的階段需要跟不同的大人有所接觸的時候我們就要回過來看這些資料庫裡面是不是真的可以回應到大家想要找一個安全可以陪伴小孩的大人在我們小孩的身邊所以這些資料庫的勾結在過去兩年我們辦公室的工作當中我們很努力促成資料庫之間的勾結還有資料庫的公開透明"},{"start":11549.634,"end":11573.924,"text":"確保在不同的生活跟教育場域當中陪伴孩子的每一個大人都是適任的而且是適當的包含我剛舉的這些例子而這個兒童工作證我們也很開心聽到衛福部在五月初告訴我們未來目前在兒少全法修法的過程當中已經納入相關兒少全法當中我們很期待後續入法之後相關的配套跟行政資源也可以陸續上路"},{"start":11575.505,"end":11598.046,"text":"談了這麼多我要謝謝主席今天舉辦這個公聽會讓我們有機會再次檢視不管是刑法修正或者是我剛剛說的民法1085或是兒童工作者或者是剛剛所有先進所提的這些事情確實可以讓這個社會對於兒少的保護更加的全面但是我也要再次呼籲一再的提高刑責惡組犯罪的成效當然需要更多的研究跟討論但"},{"start":11599.267,"end":11616.722,"text":"所有的配套也非常非常的重要他絕對不會只有落在刑法的修正以上謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝那我們上午會議的時間會繼續進行至所有發言均結束為止下一位我們請李聖傑副教授"},{"start":11628.094,"end":11644.222,"text":"招委還有與會的委員各位機關長官還有各位先進大家早安首先也是一樣對招委排進這個社會所矚目關注的關於"},{"start":11646.397,"end":11667.543,"text":"靈略幼童的這種行為的法制回應那我們也感到非常的欣慰就是說畢竟每次發生這種幼童受到靈略那一定會有受到這個社會的高度關注尤其相關的幼童基本上處於一個"},{"start":11669.123,"end":11682.654,"text":"自救力的狀態然後對於保護自己幾乎是沒有能力的所以發生這樣的一種重大的致死結果總是令人不捨不過我想"},{"start":11684.318,"end":11707.133,"text":"如同我們在今天的討論提綱提出來的就是說我們針對這個寧略兒童相關刑法的一種規範所可能測定的各個面向在相關的討論裡面總還是要回到一個現代刑法的基本原則"},{"start":11708.214,"end":11724.343,"text":"那之前這個張明偉院長,副院長不好意思那也提供了很多從美國法的思考然後呢讓我們去看看這個刑法還有什麼樣的可能的修正的地方"},{"start":11725.463,"end":11744.911,"text":"我國的刑法基本上受到德國刑法很大的影響在整個不管是刑法總則的規定 或者是刑法分責的體系我們也不會言 基本上就是我們記受了德國法很多的規定"},{"start":11746.191,"end":11765.558,"text":"所以我想說今天也從德國法的規範精神也來談談關於我們對於幼兒保護如果說還需要有刑法測定的可能的話,可以改進的空間"},{"start":11767.399,"end":11789.277,"text":"在可以改進的空間就大會所提供的這個286條刑法286條的這個條文的應用上基本上有兩個面向就刑法法規的規定而言不外乎第一個就是犯罪要件的規定其次就是法律效果那今天這一個"},{"start":11792.355,"end":11821.665,"text":"整個大會提供的具體提綱我們看到好像是比較多的琢磨在相關法律效果修訂的可能然後甚至也就是同時去連接是不是在法律效果上在無期徒刑以上在增訂死刑的可能然後在執行的面上如果是就無期徒刑而言那有沒有在增加"},{"start":11822.465,"end":11842.04,"text":"這一個相關的修正規定去做不得假釋的必要那如同我剛剛所說明,如果從刑法的策進面上面基本上兩個面向應該去思考第一個就是犯罪的要件,第二個就是法律的效果"},{"start":11842.64,"end":11871.8,"text":"那就犯罪的要件而言相關286的規定在1935年就有了當時的這個規定是採傳統結果犯的判斷方法使得286的懲罪門檻很高那必須針對這個孕育幼兒的行為我們的司法者在適用懲罪的判斷上還要去證明有這一個身心"},{"start":11872.9,"end":11890.249,"text":"防害申請結果的這一種結果跟行為的連結那這樣的一種反而是對幼童保護沉醉門檻這麼高呢那基本上讓過往286條那刑法286條幾乎成為劇文"},{"start":11894.537,"end":11913.591,"text":"那這樣的一個瑕疵呢,基本上在那個,不好意思,我們辦會的資料,那相關的資料我擺在我們辦會資料的17頁,在倒數1234第4行,我那邊打錯字了,所以我想這邊因為是書面資料,我特別的更正。"},{"start":11914.372,"end":11938.561,"text":"那說這個問題在2012年12月立法院的修法那我這個書面資料寫成1912啦 真的很不好意思在2012年當時我們法務部已經做了一個修正的建議把傳統結果犯的判斷改成逐生判斷就是說這個在學理上我們稱為四心犯"},{"start":11939.221,"end":11955.918,"text":"那在犯罪要件的成立上其實就我們刑法的規定這邊已經對幼兒有一個是應該說一個很特殊的犯罪類型的應用這個用足深判斷基本上"},{"start":11956.658,"end":11970.365,"text":"會使得我們對幼兒保護其實是透過一個很傳統的不容易去證明對一個行為跟結果因果關係的這種檢視方法上已經做了突破"},{"start":11971.385,"end":11992.981,"text":"那相關的這個四刑犯的應用呢我覺得反而在286條在應用的時候呢那應該讓實務工作者確實有看到當時修法的必要也就是說呢對於兒童的保護至少我們在法律規範的回應上面呢"},{"start":11994.682,"end":12014.809,"text":"並不是沒有做任何的更動也不是沒有對幼兒的無自救力狀態都不給予法律上的回應相關四心飯的規定我也這一次擺在大會資料上過往法務通訊也曾經針對四心飯的應用對我做一個專訪相關的專訪資料"},{"start":12023.092,"end":12049.071,"text":"我就擺在大會資料的第19頁以後也請參考那接下來呢我想就談談這一個就法律效果那是不是如同今天提綱所說明的那因為在強盜罪我們有強盜致死的死刑規範然後我們286條的虐兒致死那也可能加以死刑的這個規定"},{"start":12050.532,"end":12071.445,"text":"那這邊在我覺得說我們在做相關比較的時候呢那應該把強盜罪跟這個虐兒罪的原型做一個比較所謂的犯罪原型除了保護法醫之外它原型所連接的法律效果也是很重要的一個判斷因素"},{"start":12072.145,"end":12085.237,"text":"那虐兒罪呢基本上它當然沒有錯它是一個傷害罪的特殊類型那也因為是兒童的必須加以保護所以呢我們才有286條的特別立法"},{"start":12086.687,"end":12113.706,"text":"那在強盜罪它所侵害的基本上它不是只有財產法益而已基本上強盜罪基本上這個是學說實務共識它大概有三個法益可能被侵害第一個就是財產法益沒有問題第二個就是自由法益第三個行為人所使用的強盜行為會涉及到生命跟身體的危險"},{"start":12115.128,"end":12122.169,"text":"所以強盜罪的法定刑在328條才會定那麼高強盜罪的法定刑是五年以上"},{"start":12123.612,"end":12151.009,"text":"回到286的這個虐兒罪來看的話呢虐兒罪是六個月以上五年以下這是相當於法定刑的類比是截然不同的所以我們不能只是因為說強盜致死有一個致死結果虐兒致死也有一個致死結果所以強盜致死有致死結果可以定連結死刑虐兒致死當然可以連結死刑這邊可能還必須要做一些討論"},{"start":12152.91,"end":12168.657,"text":"那其次呢在這一個相關的286的應用上我在這邊可能還有一個適用前提就286的這一個NIR致死基本上呢它"},{"start":12170.179,"end":12183.071,"text":"一定不是271條的殺人罪那一定不是271條的殺人罪來自於我們我想這邊很多討論我們的故意類型故意類型雖然在我們刑法的第13條有所謂的這個"},{"start":12189.578,"end":12206.944,"text":"直接故意跟未必故意那可是在未必故意的判斷上那我們有一個立法定義行為人對結果遇見發生發生不違背其本意行為人主觀我們怎麼樣在這個司法實務去做判斷呢基本上"},{"start":12208.004,"end":12223.429,"text":"這邊本來就是透過行為人所使用的客觀行為去推主觀這是沒有問題的如果行為人基本上不斷地做一個虐待的動作心裡想的是即使死了也沒什麼關係他不會用286啦"},{"start":12225.527,"end":12254.987,"text":"這個就是一個很典型的271條的未必故意的殺人行為所以基本上在我們做立法判斷的時候應該去思考的故意跟過失在傳統的司法判斷故意跟過失的分類的時候出了什麼問題其次假釋我想最後一點點時間我馬上把它說完這一個假釋是一個很涉及刑事處遇的高度"},{"start":12255.888,"end":12274.611,"text":"行事立法政策那目前為止呢假設被認為是一個特別預防非常有效的工具那基本上以德國以這個歐日來說尤其是德國德國是沒有死刑所以呢基本上呢"},{"start":12275.011,"end":12291.873,"text":"他在認為這個行為人有終身隔絕社會必要的時候他當然只能給予無期徒刑給予無期徒刑他既然是已經認為他終身不需要再社會化所以就有不得假釋的規定"},{"start":12292.934,"end":12316.762,"text":"我們台灣是有死刑的國家基本上在使用無期徒刑的時候是不是因為無期徒刑我們就在司法宣告的時候認為他終身不再社會化這樣的宣告是不是在法院判決的時候我們已經這樣認定了我覺得這邊會涉及到假釋的高度"},{"start":12317.742,"end":12334.447,"text":"心思處遇的功能那我想很多的議題呢我在這個相關的書面資料也做了充分的說明那謝謝大會今天這樣的討論謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":12346.721,"end":12361.748,"text":"好 謝謝主席 以及也感謝今天來參加公聽會的各位學者專家來參加由我們司法法治委員會所舉行的公聽會我想這個議題在社會上有很多的討論"},{"start":12364.409,"end":12391.315,"text":"我想我剛才也稍微聽一下我們一些法學專家就過去大家可能就有一些法律的意見認為就說直接把它修正為說是死刑或者無期徒刑不得假釋大家可能會有一些疑慮但是我在這邊必須要提的是我覺得法律是應該保障人民尤其是保障善良的人民而且應該保障沒有辦法抵抗的這個孩子"},{"start":12393.815,"end":12410.802,"text":"那所以其实如果从各位可能是比较是法律的学者专家但是如果把它作为一个社会问题来看的话你可以看到我们现在就说台湾的儿虐跟少年保护是极为不足的"},{"start":12411.562,"end":12429.257,"text":"从2017年到2023年我国儿少遭到严重虐待死亡人数累计是56人56人其实每一条都是非常珍贵的生命2019年到2023年我国儿少受虐合计人数从1万"},{"start":12429.918,"end":12432.559,"text":"1113人增加到12646人增幅數高達13.8%尤其未滿6歲受孽人數從2244人增加到2868人增幅高達27.8%"},{"start":12448.926,"end":12477.809,"text":"所以也就是說其實在這麼長一段時間尤其社會不斷的傳輸重大的兒童事件那大家也覺得說不管是在社會安全網的部分或者在法律部分我們如何精進如何能夠去保住保護我們的兒童可是如果你今天看這樣的人數確實令人觸目驚心確實令人觸目驚心再加上尤其在"},{"start":12479.688,"end":12494.801,"text":"憲法法庭做出所謂的一致決的決定之後判決死刑一致決的決定之後形同實質廢死那麼也就是說台灣成為一個好像司法"},{"start":12495.862,"end":12523.82,"text":"跟法庭上沒有辦法去真正保護受害人或受害人家屬尤其在我們看到就是在形同是知廢死的這個憲法法庭的判決之後有幾個在社會上也受到高度重視的這些社會案件譬如說新竹輪胎行縱火奪八命他原來是死刑就把他改判成無期徒刑"},{"start":12524.761,"end":12533.777,"text":"還有馬國女大學生她原來呢是判了死刑但是在釋憲之後呢一樣最高法院撤銷判決發回更審"},{"start":12536.064,"end":12556.418,"text":"所以總總現在司法的方向會讓民眾覺得擔心甚至憤怒所以今天我們的這樣的一個公聽會其實來源自也就是在凱凱案受到社會矚目之後的凱凱案大家也知道在網路上已經超過13萬人的連署"},{"start":12559.66,"end":12574.654,"text":"而且呢我也相信在包含我自己在內還有跨黨派的委員我們的辦公室來自多如雪片般的誠情和建議要求希望對於"},{"start":12576.956,"end":12597.893,"text":"兒童就是凌虐致死應該我們要修法能夠判處死刑或者無期徒刑那對於我想民意代表來講我們最重要的我們是要順從民意我們要順從民意所以在這個方面在因為我現在是國民黨團的書記長那我們黨團呢也"},{"start":12602.476,"end":12609.964,"text":"出印回應的現在廣大的民意我們也提出了修法我們修正的是刑法第286條就是將淋虐6歲以下7歲以下的兒童"},{"start":12617.833,"end":12624.215,"text":"是人與死者處死刑或者是無期徒刑所以在這邊也跟大家報告因為黨團提出了版本我們當然希望能夠去順利的修法能夠回應現在社會大眾特別是廣大的父母們尤其對凱凱案還有過去這麼多的這樣子"},{"start":12639.201,"end":12665.752,"text":"的虐兒案或者是過去也有凌虐致死的案件我們必須要做出一個回應感謝今天所有的學者專家給我們的寶貴意見但是呢在這方面的修法那我也認為是必須我們要去回應社會真正大部分人的意見以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請黃鼎宣副教授"},{"start":12674.625,"end":12682.864,"text":"好 那主席以及各位與會的先進在座各位先進大家好那等一下跟書籍說抱歉的是我等一下可能講完我要回去要上課這樣都可能會先行離開"},{"start":12683.755,"end":12705.912,"text":"那我今天這個公聽會的這個討論的提綱我主要是會以這個訴訟法的修改為中心那主要的是刑事訴訟法以及國民法官法還有少年事件處理法的這個修法那首先呢我會先討論兩個層次的問題第一個是虐童案的這個被害人他年紀上輕要怎麼保障那第二個是非幼童的這個被害人"},{"start":12707.333,"end":12734.104,"text":"那怎麼擴充這個權益這兩個方面來跟大家說起那首先第一個呢也就是在虐童案的這個被虐的兒童通常他的這個年齡都是比較小的那他是我們所謂的弱勢證人那弱勢證人在做這個證人的時候他有可能會面臨到以下幾個問題第一個是他的證詞的可信性可能會有一些問題是因為幼童他在說話的時候可能會有前後反覆等等的"},{"start":12735.084,"end":12754.491,"text":"是因為他的身體狀況的這個發展而導致可能證詞可信性會受到影響以及第二個呢因為幼童他的身體發育會比較不像成人一樣所以我們為了避免他受到二次傷害那我們在現行的這一個訴訟法制上面有所謂的這個司法詢問員的制度會對他進行保護"},{"start":12755.311,"end":12779.554,"text":"司法詢問員的制度是在《性侵害防治法》第19條及第26條主要是說我對於兒童或身心障礙者在受到性侵害的時候我們可以對他以司法詢問員的方式詢問他的證詞確保證詞的可信性以及避免二次傷害這是司法詢問員的運用"},{"start":12781.235,"end":12807.608,"text":"不過呢在這一個司法詢問的運用上面我認為說或許我們可以把它擴大擴大呢擴大至性侵害以外的這一個案件也就是說不管是這一個性侵害案件或者是性侵害以外的案件你兒童在做證人的時候其實都有確保他證詞可信性以及呢避免他受到二次傷害的可能所以我認為說應該要把這一個司法詢問的制度擴大及於性侵害以外的案件"},{"start":12808.668,"end":12834.175,"text":"參考日本法治在日本的刑事訴訟法的321條之三他也去規定說直接在刑事訴訟法規定以下的兩個對象都有這一個司法權務員的使用一個是特定的性犯罪另外一個是依犯罪的性質公訴者的年齡身心狀況以及與被告的關係去認為說這一個弱勢證人在準備程序或者是審判期日當中他的公訴"},{"start":12835.055,"end":12850.185,"text":"會有侵害到這個弱勢證人的精神平穩的話那這樣子就會有司法詢問員的適用所以我認為說司法詢問的制度或許可以基於保障被害兒童這樣弱勢證人的權益那可以擴大給予到性侵害以外的案件"},{"start":12850.905,"end":12864.138,"text":"那接下來呢我要討論的這個議題是關於這個刑事訴訟法以及國民法官法到底要不要去擴張給予這個被害人有獨立上訴權被害人的結論權以及證據調查申請權那我的結論是不疑的那為什麼"},{"start":12867.822,"end":12884.633,"text":"我會用以下幾點理由來跟大家做說明那首先第一點理由是呢訴訟程序其實在我們的刑事訴訟程序也好或國民法官法的程序也好它是由當事人去主導進行的也就是呢根據我們的刑事訴訟法的修法在2012年以及2013年的修法我們是改裁"},{"start":12885.393,"end":12913.322,"text":"改良市當事人進行主義而國民法官法呢它在我們的這個47條立法理由當中它也說明了我們採取的是這個當事人進行主義這樣的架構那當事人進行主義跟改良市當事人進行主義它主要的都是你今天呢在做證據調查等等的權限那原則上是委由我們的當事人也就是檢察官以及呢這一個被告以及辯護人來去進行主導那進行主導之後呢它再由這一個"},{"start":12914.562,"end":12930.912,"text":"再由這一個檢察官跟被告以及辯護人來對於證人去進行結論或者是申請調查證據這樣的權限也就是我們所謂的三面關係因此在訴訟裡面的這一個主體呢主要的是檢察官然後被告以及法院這樣形成三面關係所以"},{"start":12931.172,"end":12955.95,"text":"在這個部分的話 我認為基於訴訟程序是有當事人主導的這一點理由我認為不宜擴充給予被害人有這樣的權利另外第二點是刑事裁判其實它的主要目的是正確確認法律的存在這一個刑事裁判的目的並不是以回應犯罪被害人的被害情感為目的回應被害情感只是次要的目的而已"},{"start":12956.95,"end":12981.187,"text":"這樣子的觀點可以在我們這個法官法的第86條的第一項看到這樣子的影子存在那為什麼呢 是因為86條第一項說檢察官代表國家依法訴追 處罰犯罪為了維護社會秩序的公義代表人所以這個公義代表人原則上他是基於公義不會受到被害人依項的拘束然後去進行犯罪的訴追 並且確認法律的存在"},{"start":12981.647,"end":12996.616,"text":"所以反過來的假設我們刑事裁判是以回應被害人的被害情感為中心的話那這樣子我們其實就不會在法官法當中去規定檢察官是公益代表人他應該規定的是檢察官是被害人的代理人才對所以基於這樣的觀點來說我認為說被害人他"},{"start":13000.058,"end":13029.058,"text":"無法享有這樣子的形式裁判上的各種當事人所應該享有的最終處分的決定權限那接下來呢第三點是參考日本法治的這一個說明那在日本法治上面呢它其實有去徵定了這一個被害人可以參與訴訟這樣子的權利那尤其是會涉及到我們今天的提案是呢這一個被害人他可以就情狀的事項也就良形的情狀事項對於證人進行對質結論或者是你可以直接詢問被告的這兩點"},{"start":13029.998,"end":13055.688,"text":"會比較是跟我們今天有關那至於說呢這個法條的這個翻譯我放在我們今天的與會資料當中的第27頁及28頁以下那請各位先進可以參考那就這個部分來說呢就這一個犯罪被害人的保護上來講其實增訂了剛才所說的這一些可以就良心事項結論證人或者是說可以去詢問被告的這一個被害人參與之後那有日本的學者他從刑事訴訟"},{"start":13056.468,"end":13080.429,"text":"情勢政策的觀點來看其實這樣子的徵定呢會使得犯罪被害人參與之後有可能會導致法庭會有具場化的現象也就是被害人會跟這一個被告會有這樣子的這一個攻擊等等的這樣的現象那當然我不是說被害人呢他的權益不值得保護而是說可能會導致於說我們刑事訴訟法的目的呢會受到削弱那會萎縮被告的防禦權以及被告的"},{"start":13080.909,"end":13092.844,"text":"以被害人的報復情感有可能會影響到法院去正確認定事實的這一個裁判的正確目的所以會妨礙刑事訴訟法本來的目的因此我認為說基於刑事訴訟法本來的目的是正確認識用法這樣的目的來說那我認為說不應該去"},{"start":13098.329,"end":13118.617,"text":"擴權賦予被害人這樣的這些權利那接下來呢在這一個第四點的這個國民法官的程序上面因為國民法官他會有一般的人民加入所以我們原則上要去防止國民法官會有產生欲斷的新政所以在這個部分的話呢要怎麼避免欲斷的新政其實在日本法治上面他們就有去做討論"},{"start":13119.557,"end":13144.438,"text":"也就是說他認為說呢要避免這一個裁判員法庭新政的話其實他們會認為說法院應該要去判斷說如果你今天的案件是增值犯人統一性也就是我今天否認我犯罪的前提之下那法院呢應該要認為說被案參與訴訟他不具有相當性而駁回這一個參加申請的這個意見也有這樣的意見存在那在我國的程序上來說呢"},{"start":13145.899,"end":13166.85,"text":"在國民法官法的第四條雖然有適用被害人參與訴訟的規定但我認為說應該要在國民法官的程序以及我們刑事訴訟法的目的也就是避免國民法官產生預斷新政的前提之下去做解釋所以就刑事訴訟法的部分我認為說不宜擴充賦予犯罪被害人有獨立上訴跟被害人結問權以及申請到他證據這樣的權利"},{"start":13171.212,"end":13196.922,"text":"那接下來呢第二個部分我會先就少年事件處理法來做說明那就少年事件處理法來說結論上我也認為說不應該要賦予被害人有獨立上訴那被害人有結婚權以及申請調查證據這樣的權限那其實我們會知道說在釋字805號解釋呢我們認為說今天被害人他可以參與少年的保護事件程序那理由是因為呢大法官說釋字805號解釋說這個是正當法律的程序"},{"start":13197.302,"end":13215.459,"text":"的要求所以被害人可以參與但是他會跟我們的少年事件處理法的這一個這一個第一條的立法精神我們要去做相配合的去做解釋那除此之外呢在36條之一也好或者是少家廳的這個函式也好他們也說明了其實在我們刑事訴訟法的被害人參與的立法"},{"start":13215.819,"end":13235.996,"text":"他不適用在我們的少年事件處理法的理由是因為我們少年事件處理法有特別的這個立法目的也就是說我們要保障少年的意見表明權也就是呢所謂的少年正當法律程序的保障也好或者是維護少年的健全自我成長我們主要的要知道這一個少年他到底呢需要我們幫他做什麼"},{"start":13236.536,"end":13256.974,"text":"然後他需要未來想要長成怎樣子的大人的樣子所以我認為說應該要保障這一個少年的意見表明權之後我們成人才知道要如何在旁邊去幫助他所以少年法官在傾聽少年的意見之後我認為說應該要積極的以意願為主不知道大家有沒有這樣的意見就是有時候如果成人一直逼迫你去"},{"start":13257.674,"end":13281.906,"text":"去承認你的錯誤的話有時候我就不願意講那我就不知道該怎麼幫他所以我認為意見表明權很重要所以最後回歸到被害人在少年事件處理法的定位我認為說他是能協助少年法院去對於少年去做健全自我成長實踐少年事件處理法第一條的協力者之一而已所以我認為說呢只要是危害到少年事件處理法第一條所謂少年健全自我成長"},{"start":13282.846,"end":13303.056,"text":"這樣子的被害人參與的訴訟制度的話都不宜的貿然引進所以就結論上來講的話我認為說不管是刑事訴訟法也好或者是國民法官法也好或者是少年事件處理法也好呢我認為說都不宜擴充賦予被害人有獨立上訴權被害人有結論權以及證據調查的申請權那以上呢是我的報告那謝謝大家"},{"start":13308.977,"end":13323.781,"text":"謝謝 副教授是國內法律的專家 少數方面的專家而且從兒童的角度去看待輸送上面的權益我覺得這是非常重要 謝謝好 那下一位我們請林玉順教授"},{"start":13336.91,"end":13349.612,"text":"主席在場的各位先進大家午安大家好時間很晚了我們早上九點多等到現在可能大家肚子餓我盡量很簡單的把我今天要跟各位報告的事情做一個說明"},{"start":13351.656,"end":13378.481,"text":"那因為真的這個題目很多我剛剛接到這提告的時候我覺得哇這從刑法實體法到程序法到刑事政策到監獄到國民法官都要講的話講不完所以我今天鎖在鎖定在可能我們第四題甚至我就覺得我今天看我們這個我們主席很用心把這標題有一個副標就回憶民意然後虐捅行者的法治的檢討"},{"start":13379.801,"end":13402.076,"text":"那我把這個副標題我把它拆成兩個怎麼回憶名義 我以回憶名義為主啦然後更重要的就是我們都是第三人那真正的如果算是受害的案件當事人 被害人他的意見在我們整個刑事司法院怎麼納入我覺得是我今天想報告的主題"},{"start":13404.059,"end":13432.412,"text":"那首先我從第二個講說從兩個案例談起那第二個案例是第一件我們台灣國民法官的一個審判的案例那這是當初這案例判決之後其實很多很多的社會意見可是我覺得讓我覺得特別關注的就是這件案子被害人曾經到法庭面來陳述意見那我稍微念一段"},{"start":13434.404,"end":13459.201,"text":"大家想想看那個殺人的一個家暴殺戶案中那受害人還有那個加害人都是他自己最親近的人那我相信他願意到法庭來他心裡承受的壓力是很大的可是他願意來可是我們在整個過程當中有聽可是有沒有聽到有沒有聽進去我覺得是重點"},{"start":13460.502,"end":13478.862,"text":"為什麼會有這樣的看法因為你看我們看到的內容她說她身為一個女兒如果她多關心一下父母家庭的事情的話她認為不會發生接下來這句讓我覺得聽了很有感她說"},{"start":13480.343,"end":13491.215,"text":"對於父母親或他家裡面的事情我都看在眼裡我能明白母親的痛苦我也想過如果同樣的事情發生在我身上我是我會選擇一樣的路"},{"start":13494.167,"end":13513.608,"text":"那我當我聽到這一段的時候其實他這一段講的時候我當場在現場旁聽的時候我聽到整個現場裡面很多人就就拿著手帕出來在擦眼淚就是說我們可以知道這悲哀是很痛苦的面對這樣一個場景可是我們看我們國民法官法73條第三項有規定"},{"start":13515.69,"end":13544.2,"text":"當被害人陳述意見之後如果你對他的內容如果說有一些想更進一步了解的話你是可以做補充詢問的可是很可惜的我們這個案件裡面我們沒有看到法官或是國民法官有去再進一步的追問到底為什麼你會覺得如果是你的話你沒有把握你不會像你母親這樣做我覺得這是很重要的就是被害人的心聲是不是我們有真的把它聽進去了"},{"start":13545.24,"end":13560.459,"text":"那我覺得是可能是不是我們這個備案在我們現在法律的規定上或所謂訴訟參與權是有一種好像是一個形式上的技術上的規定那我馬上看我覺得這個可能大家在"},{"start":13561.44,"end":13590.74,"text":"台灣也看到相當報導日本京都有一個動漫工作室被晃火裡面死傷了很慘重三十人死亡 三十人受傷我們看他們在安排他們停棋的時候他們發 就是被害人有需要到底為什麼這是被告為什麼下手為什麼是挑這樣的公司為什麼這時間進去他們很想知道被害人被害人很想知道被告你的想法或是讓被告聽一下我們被害人的一個痛苦"},{"start":13591.68,"end":13605.186,"text":"所以他們安排了十天裡面就結婚被告安排十天的庭期然後又排了三天 整整三天讓十三名被害人家屬去講他們對這個案子的意見"},{"start":13606.827,"end":13623.805,"text":"所以我是覺得我們制度設計我就跟回民意怎麼讓當事人或是我們關於司法但是我們要參與司法審判的所謂國民主權尊重他們要去發表意見的時候我們這些設計其實有沒有達到原本規劃的目的我覺得是重要的尤其我是覺得"},{"start":13625.927,"end":13645.483,"text":"人民對人民 被愛人他心生他真實的感受才容易被聽到剛才一早的時候聽到黃國昌黃委員就提到就是說我們法律人神簡變三方可能往往就跟一些最本土的聲音或是最庶民的聲音有點脫節"},{"start":13646.644,"end":13675.315,"text":"所以他裡面就描述這個參與審判不管是對參與審判的被害人或是參與審判的這個裁判員或是我們的國民法官其實他們經過這樣的一個審判過程他們都有很多很多的不同的感想或是得到對於司法的信任或對司法的了解有進一步的提升那現在我覺得我們台灣現在已經有了國民法官那這個國民法官其實解決我們很多很多問題"},{"start":13677.545,"end":13680.671,"text":"這個好像調整上要拿方向這邊"},{"start":13683.547,"end":13707.732,"text":"就是說我們的司法的不當 我們恐龍判決的批評司法的嚴當 司法的不公 政治文件講說我們現在很多案件是不是有政治介入問題或是我們誤判的問題其實我們國民法官其實是某種可以去解決讓人民自己進來參與這個審判的過程讓他瞭解 反映他們的感想或是做一個國民主權 一個司法民主的判斷"},{"start":13708.939,"end":13722.374,"text":"那我覺得最近這一兩年來常常接待很多國外相關的司法團體來跟我們台灣做交流也就是說這個是一個整個國際操作的趨勢"},{"start":13727.192,"end":13744.642,"text":"可是我們發現我們看這兩年的國民法官的一個刑事案件我們發現我們這兩年有檢查案起訴285件竟有高達73件因為我們審檢變商方就排除了這國民法官的私用"},{"start":13746.514,"end":13769.884,"text":"而且我們國民法官特別強調這不僅是要提升私保透明度或是反映人民的感情更重要是要彰顯國民主權我們審檢片三方的決定就讓人民沒有辦法參加我覺得這是一個值得檢討的事情如果要反映民意來看的話我們看我們參考的一個對象日本的制度我們看他們"},{"start":13771.345,"end":13796.765,"text":"2020年、2021年、2022年他們會因為我們擔心的理由去說我們的國民法官受到媒體的影響或是因為案件太複雜我們幾乎在日本的案例裡面看不到他們唯一擔心的會排除適用的是因為擔心你參加這案子你是不是可能是黑道犯罪是組織犯罪可能你會有人身安全他們就排除適用"},{"start":13797.586,"end":13818.942,"text":"可是你可以看它的排除適用是個位數的一千件他們適用案件倒是兩個就幾件案件 兩件三件就是因為人身安全 國民法官的人身安全才有這樣的一個排除適用相對來講我們竟然有高達四分之一左右的這樣排除案件"},{"start":13819.702,"end":13837.151,"text":"那我就發現上禮拜一個韓國的學者來做相關的研討也是講他們韓國就發生這個現象原本適用案件也高達一千件左右可是現在就變成一個不到百件去適用他們韓國的他們所謂國民法官的制度人民參與審判制度"},{"start":13837.816,"end":13852.071,"text":"那我覺得現在真的是一個我們一個很重要的轉捩點我想明年之後我們國民法官要擴大如果我們常常因為什麼案件複雜就排除私用的話我覺得對於我們的私改或是我們的一個人民參與的話是很大的展散"},{"start":13855.967,"end":13875.897,"text":"好那我們再看一下就是說我們台灣的法制對被害人輸送餐飲的法制我覺得我們台灣真的是比國外的立法或是甚至比日本的立法更超前因為你看我們在2019是選在國際人權日去訂的是被害人輸送餐飲然後裡面規定了10個條文去規定這個內容"},{"start":13880.911,"end":13898.303,"text":"甚至我們的大法官憲法法院的一個憲法法人員看法認為說這個被害人輸送的意見的陳述權它不是政策而已它是一個人民的基本權利所謂政策的話可能我們覺得這是你們上面"},{"start":13899.864,"end":13925.872,"text":"由上而下給我們一些恩惠給我們社會福利可是我們台灣超前部署啊是不是說不是這是人民可以跟國家要求我覺得這是在其他歐美國家在日本很少看見把它當作基本權利可是我們看一下那台灣十一操作中發生什麼事情到現在我們台灣這被害人的位置坐在哪裡其實就還是各法院各法庭都不一樣"},{"start":13927.062,"end":13944.001,"text":"那我們看日本他讓他坐在一個固定的位置然後坐在一個他實時可以去反映意見他去表現主席可以再給我三分鐘嗎這三分鐘我很快把後面結尾就是說"},{"start":13945.117,"end":13971.122,"text":"我們現在常常看到我們台灣的國民這個這個 黑暗殺人群的話他可能坐在證人的旁邊或是他證人的鑑定人的一個那個柵欄裡面的一個前面的位置我覺得那感覺是你就是好像來過水的一樣剛才我講到為什麼我們台灣有這樣的制度可是好像黑暗的聲音很難讓裁判者判斷者聽進去就是有豆牌"},{"start":13971.502,"end":13990.198,"text":"可是那時間充不充分或是你坐的位子你有沒有時間讓他實際上去了解這整個審判過程或是審判的內容我覺得是跟這個很小的問題可是我倒覺得他是一個大學問你看像日本的法庭他就有固定的位子就坐在檢察院旁邊或他坐在檢察院後面"},{"start":13992.95,"end":14021.641,"text":"好 那日本裡面他對於失望參與的機制大概有這樣子就是他不僅可以表達意見他某種程度也可以當作去發現真實去了解從透過跟被告或是對於證人的一個對話去讓案情更清楚那這邊剛才 抱歉有一個統計數字就是說可以看到日本他們實際上每年都有1500件的左右"},{"start":14022.461,"end":14038.407,"text":"他們被害人在法庭上不是坐在那邊或是就一個剎那間去表達意見他甚至可以參與整個訴訟的流程審判的流程等一下有一個圖我們可以再看得更清楚好那"},{"start":14041.499,"end":14066.427,"text":"我們現在就是比較大的問題就是說會贊成這個所謂的我們現在的所謂的三方的這樣的審判的構造可是這個後面不管國民法官或是我們所謂的當事人的改造其他一個對照核心就是要施這個審判權或司法權的下放而且是分散那怎麼貫徹這個 怎麼樣貫徹然後去維持這個審判的效率我覺得是一個重點"},{"start":14067.367,"end":14090.972,"text":"那最後我想用這跟大家講一下就是我覺得大家最近可能很多民間的統計說什麼我們台灣的司法改革好像大家很不滿意可是我覺得並不是方向錯司法權的下放跟分散是對的方向可是我覺得是不徹底我剛才講的不管是我們事務參與或是我們國民法官這個人民參與的這個機制這方向是對的可是就是"},{"start":14092.099,"end":14118.346,"text":"我覺得他就是 不到位喔 不到位喔我們這邊看就是日本他們他們表演素用參與的話他讓他安排在檢察官的旁邊或是在安排在檢察官附近說明你不是來過水的你是可以站到從頭到尾而且對整個過程你有任何不了解的話檢察官跟你講到底現在我們進到什麼程度現在剛才審判的內容是在講什麼要讓他們表演理解更重要 他會讓"},{"start":14119.426,"end":14140.921,"text":"被害人除了去表達他對審判裡面他的這個案情裡面他是案件的當事人他所受到的委屈他的對這個案件的看法他可以透過對證人的結論或證人的被告去表示他的意見那更重要的就是我是覺得這個怎麼去維持這個三方構造透過設計是可以達到的"},{"start":14143.883,"end":14163.048,"text":"那詳細我的文章有寫我就再不多做說明可是至少我們可以看見被害人有一個固定的位置他不是過水的被害人可以全程參與被害人在我們審判的過程我們在整個審判過程尊重被害人我們不是只讓他按你講的意見就照本訊去唸完我就怎麼樣聽到"},{"start":14165.029,"end":14184.005,"text":"重點在到 聽進去然後在你的審判中發揮效果我覺得是重點那我還是一樣就是行百里辦救市我們都有 人民參審當然說參審都有可是怎麼貫徹它原本的那個制度設計我覺得是值得大家思考的好 謝謝各位"},{"start":14185.886,"end":14197.229,"text":"好 謝謝林教授 林教授在刑事實體跟懲役法上面都有很多研究謝謝給予最寶貴的建議好 那下一位我們請董律師朝偉"},{"start":14210.999,"end":14237.43,"text":"各位委員各位與會的學者專家以及各位到場的長官大家好今天很榮幸出席貴委員會召開的回應民意虐童行者法治總檢討的公聽會首先近年來兒少案件層出不窮今日本著痛心與不捨的心情出席此公聽會"},{"start":14239.571,"end":14247.539,"text":"今日大家都是為了保障人權實現社會正義以及促進民主法治而共同前來與會在此我"},{"start":14252.023,"end":14275.163,"text":"沉重的呼籲我們我國公部門應該重視以下幾點國家設置政府最主要是透過它來實現安全、秩序、正義、自由及福利這五大功能及目的安全及秩序只是國家的消極目的倘若連安全跟秩序都無法做到更何況來奢求後續的自由與福利"},{"start":14277.342,"end":14299.361,"text":"國家更應該重視人民的安全照顧人民一個國家有多麼進步只需要去看這個國家是如何對待及照顧最弱勢的人民倘若我們連最弱勢的人民都能夠妥善的照顧如此我們才能晉升這個完全民主的法治國家"},{"start":14301.247,"end":14319.752,"text":"凱凱案只有一歲半的兒童正是我國最弱勢的人民他連講話說不定都還不太會講國家文明進步的展現就是看我們後續當這些案件發生之後如何來妥善及對待以及整體的照顧"},{"start":14322.759,"end":14335.845,"text":"對於加強兒虐防治,捍衛兒少兒童權益,正是大家努力的目標以下針對這次議題說明這些法制的意見,請多指教"},{"start":14336.684,"end":14363.701,"text":"第一個關於虐視兒童相關刑責是否有測定之處當然受限於我國目前的法治本案檢察官他是以286條來起訴而不是以殺人罪刑法271條來起訴因此導致後續的國民法官他只能受限以最高刑責無期徒刑來作為一個宣告刑"},{"start":14365.816,"end":14390.957,"text":"我國刑法328條是強盜罪因而致人於死者最高可以處死刑原因在於說在刑法328條這個強盜罪它有一條叫致死不能抗拒那我們回想這個整件案件凱凱案發生的過程一次半的凱凱被虐待的時候是不是也面臨到致死不能抗拒的虐待"},{"start":14392.936,"end":14416.725,"text":"與此本案相較於328條致死不能抗拒的被強盜被強盜的受害人凱凱的案有過之而無不及面對肆虐的人凱凱無法逃脫無法抗拒其自我保護及反抗的能力遠低於強盜罪的被害人自然我國"},{"start":14418.735,"end":14434.661,"text":"有提升兒童凌虐致死者最高刑度把最高刑度拉高為死刑因此有他的正當性及必要性況且在我國相當的法治之下法律必須隨著社會而變遷"},{"start":14437.128,"end":14449.712,"text":"對於法務部一再與這個特殊的法制不符合中體法制規範而言這一點我是持相當的這個反對意見畢竟在"},{"start":14453.547,"end":14475.192,"text":"大院的所有立委委員的努力的提升之下一定要有所先突破我們針對一個點突破之後後續把所有的相關配套法制一併的把它提升上來這樣子就不會有目前的所謂法務部他們有關於說這個比例原則有失輕重的這些問題出現"},{"start":14477.965,"end":14495.273,"text":"況且我們會委由每個案例委由國民法官或者由職業或者由法官來衡量對於事件的輕重來給予不同的刑度最嚴重的可以處死刑當然依序往下無期徒刑或是有期徒刑再者"},{"start":14499.87,"end":14520.549,"text":"關於無期徒刑如何再加重的問題這是有鑒於286條第五項對於年幼的孩子有犯凌虐致死罪的話我們要加重期刑的二分之一那無期徒刑怎麼加重無期徒刑在我國目前的法治下刑法77條第一項"},{"start":14522.84,"end":14539.095,"text":"以及這個六十五條七十七條第一項是講有期徒刑二分之一可以報假釋無期徒刑超過二十五年關滿二十五年才可以報假釋那六十五條是說無期徒刑不得加重因此就會有出現這個漢格的問題"},{"start":14541.993,"end":14565.333,"text":"這個前幾年的這個無期徒刑要如何來適用加重這裡當然前面有很多先進學者專家有提到說這是整個刑事處遇的政策問題當然我國是一個目前上擁有死刑制度的國家在面對沒有死刑的美國他是用終身監禁來替代"},{"start":14566.343,"end":14591.456,"text":"因此在我國的立法的選擇上當然就會擁有說擁有這個雙重選擇譬如說我們要以死刑擁有死刑為主還是說去除死刑以終身監禁無期徒刑不得假釋為主的立法選擇模式那這一點目前我是持這個比較保留的看法無期徒刑"},{"start":14593.035,"end":14608.792,"text":"我個人是認為必須要把關滿25年這個25年再往上拉高拉高到30幾年或40幾年並不能一味的說要終身監禁 為什麼因為我們可以試想一個狀況"},{"start":14611.445,"end":14635.618,"text":"用槍槍決我在打麻醉的狀況下比較痛苦還是說把你關關到你人生都沒希望關到無期徒刑終生監禁不得假釋比較痛苦當然這個部分還有要關於這個很多面向可以討論因此我提出這個部分來請大家這個可以來值得我們來做討論關於提綱的部分"},{"start":14642.11,"end":14662.458,"text":"公民與政治權利國際公約第六條第二項規範禁止各地約國將情節非最重大之罪判處死刑這個所指情節最重大之罪是否限於直接故意而排除間接故意殺人罪在我國的一一三年憲判日第八號的判決理由書有提到"},{"start":14665.342,"end":14680.932,"text":"在我國有法律未接的公正公約第六條第二項規定就尚未廢除死刑的國家故要求鎖定死刑僅得適用於最嚴重的犯罪但該公約並沒有就最嚴重的犯罪"},{"start":14686.915,"end":14710.353,"text":"進一步的具體化只有到一般性意見才有提到說僅限於故意殺人罪的極嚴重的罪行但是一般性的意見是否就代表著這個公約的本身內容這個我打一個很大的問號如果是可以代表那直接就訂入公約就好了因此我這邊個人的看法見解是認為說"},{"start":14712.274,"end":14740.791,"text":"當然我國可以把這個情節最重大的罪把虐兒致死案把它納入其中這個是我們立法院的立法形成自由空間絕對不可以被侵害因此簡單講這個將虐兒致死案虐兒致死這個法律刑把它增加死刑這個法律效果應該是明確可行的"},{"start":14747.542,"end":14747.563,"text":"好"},{"start":14750.849,"end":14778.524,"text":"最後有關於被害人參與刑事訴訟制度是否有獨立上訴權、結論權跟證據調查申請權這個部分雖然我國刑事訴訟法第七篇之三已經有被害人訴訟參與的程序但是這個程序非常的不足在我自己職業的過程當中幫這個虐兒致死案的被害人這一邊的時候我們"},{"start":14779.685,"end":14800.453,"text":"基本上對於每一個程序法庭的活動被害人的家屬都很有話想要跟我講但是我跟他說因為我們沒有結問證人權沒有結問鑑定人的權利不能申請調查證據因此很多話"},{"start":14802.011,"end":14825.286,"text":"在按照當時候的在目前的法治下必須留到最後作為意見表達的時候審判長會給被害人給予最後的意見表達那因此呢導致被害人的家屬在很多原本想講的話當下沒辦法表達的時候到最後法庭結束的時候他"},{"start":14826.587,"end":14850.787,"text":"其實想講的話很多時間都錯過了剩下的就是一些剩下的就是一些話沒辦法完全的盡力表達所以目前我個人見解是認為說應該還是要把這個結論證人鑑定人申請調查證據的權利把它增訂以增加這個被害人訴訟上的權利以上 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14856.844,"end":14868.479,"text":"那我謝謝大律師剛剛就有關無期徒刑 夾時間延長還有死刑的部分的見解 好 謝謝下一位我們請周律師發言"},{"start":14881.174,"end":14896.376,"text":"主席張委員還有在座各位學者專家團體跟機關先進大家好我是周瑋秀周律師時間其實已經中午了其實還是有蠻多專家跟代表團體在這邊我想其實"},{"start":14896.86,"end":14914.809,"text":"就可以看到各位對這個議題的重視那我也是要感謝就是召委能夠在這個議題上召開公聽會來跟各位做討論那我想在這個議題在討論的時候我必須要先講一下我自己個人的立場那我自己是那個13宪判8的申請方的代理人所以我自己的"},{"start":14915.339,"end":14928.569,"text":"在價值觀的判斷上可能沒有辦法支持去擴大死刑跟這個無期徒刑不得假釋這樣子的一個制度的適用那當然說起來可能是迫大家冷水但是在這個對立的氣氛逐漸深耗的今天我覺得"},{"start":14929.11,"end":14945.621,"text":"在不同的立場裡面找到對話的空間還是很重要的所以我希望我能夠在這個虐兒的部分我從我自己的觀點來提供給大家一些其他的一個做法我自己的我自己的小孩有一位在這個前幾年經過了一個"},{"start":14947.901,"end":14973.948,"text":"專業輔導判斷被檢查出來有一個特殊的狀況叫做選擇性緘默那這個選擇性緘默並不是一個在台灣的精神病學上被認定是一個精神病的狀況但是他的特色就是他沒有辦法跟熟人以外的人講話那輔導老師其實是跟我說因為可能是因為爸爸平常工作太忙沒有辦法跟小孩好好相處"},{"start":14975.802,"end":15004.885,"text":"所以才會有這個情形的發生因為他覺得不用講話就可以迴避很多的責任我想要說的是如果今天可以重新的用審判的方法給我很多的罪讓我抓去關然後可以讓我的小孩不用有這個病的話我其實非常非常願意我覺得我在這個社會我想要做一些事但我沒有辦法去好好顧我的家人這可能是我人生中非常非常大的罪過那所以"},{"start":15006.109,"end":15009.909,"text":"同樣的道理是我想跟各位討論的問題是我們今天應該要把"},{"start":15010.905,"end":15038.561,"text":"照顧小孩的資源放在哪裡我知道大家都很憤怒大家都很希望把這個欺負小孩的人給他一個非常非常嚴重的對待但我們要同時面對的問題是這個社會的資源是有限的這個社會有很多被害人跟被害人的家屬他們是需要更多的支持的我不是一個真的很Qualified的父親我一直都在這幾年在很多的懊悔當中"},{"start":15039.551,"end":15056.047,"text":"但是我在想的問題是 我有沒有辦法讓其他人的小孩如果他真的有類似的狀況產生的時候他走到學校他不會被霸凌 他不會被老師忽視他不會被其他的家長覺得說 你是在拖累我小孩的學習"},{"start":15057.108,"end":15084.703,"text":"我覺得這是一個很重要的一個議題所以很抱歉的是雖然主席跟公聽會這邊列了一個很龐大的提綱也非常具有討論價值但我希望我們能夠如同前面幾位的討論人更能夠聚焦在我們怎麼樣的去預防下一個這樣子的事情發生在我來看其實真正的問題可能是我們能不能夠去做到更好的社會連結如果可以的話"},{"start":15085.851,"end":15100.706,"text":"我希望我不用花那麼多的時間在外面在各處奔波我可以多花一點時間陪我的小孩那可是呢你愛你的小孩不代表別人也愛小孩啊就如同很多媽媽在把娃娃車推上公車的時候會被人家趕下車"},{"start":15102.281,"end":15127.16,"text":"那當這個社會沒有辦法讓大家不計原因去愛小孩的時候我們要怎麼跟大家講說那個虐童的情形不會再發生因為虐童不一定是真正就是像凱凱恩這麼嚴重的毆打而是當一個小孩走在路上他會莫名其妙被路人講說你怎麼衣服沒有穿好你怎麼這麼熱還要穿外套的時候那也是一種對他身心的一種非常大的一個打擊所以"},{"start":15127.961,"end":15156.333,"text":"我必須要提醒各位一件事情是本案的被害如果我們以海岸來講的話這個被害人其實他就是來自於高風險的家庭那這個來自高風險家庭的小孩本來在成長的過程就很容易遭到各種的忽略還有歧視跟對待所以如果我們假設他能夠平安長大他可能還要歷經很多人生其他的關卡例如說不幸被別人知道原來他的父母親可能不是那麼善良的人"},{"start":15157.622,"end":15183.229,"text":"那我們要怎麼去回應他說你平安長大之後我們相信你可以有一個值得你過的社會所以我對於如何的去評價這件事情可能也會同時的去討論說那我們要怎麼去看待在這個社會上的這個受刑人我們當然可以去很嚴格的指責他可是這個指責如果發生了一個月暈跟漣漪效應的時候這個會不會是我們想要的"},{"start":15183.829,"end":15210.158,"text":"那這個是我會希望能夠在這個公聽會裡面嘗試在這個領域裡面再試圖跟大家對話的一個狀況而我再往下講的就是我也認為其實今天的專家團體們提到的一些配套措施是有它必要的例如說就算以我的立場我可能沒有那麼支持不得甲施但我也覺得你要去提升這個裡面的這個保安處分的相關機制我認為沒有問題"},{"start":15212.519,"end":15240.021,"text":"但有一個現實是什麼剛剛應該是這個王理事長的簡報吧對不起我不一定記很清楚但是有提到的是可能可以仿照我們現在刑法的九十一條之一去做這個所謂的刑後強制治療那我要提醒各位的事情是說大法官其實在799號解釋又討論到一件事情是這個強制治療是不是真的有在治療還是它其實是刑事上的治療但實質上只產生了隔離的效果"},{"start":15240.541,"end":15266.098,"text":"所以怎麼去規劃那個治療怎麼去思考說讓一個人他願意的去認清他不應該做這樣的事而他願意的去做改正我覺得可能單純的去觀察這個監獄政策 債範率很高可能不是這個問題的唯一出口而是當債範率更高的時候我們要問的是我們投入監獄的資源到底在哪裡"},{"start":15267.728,"end":15290.764,"text":"那在這個狀況之下我們再去思考這個矯正能不能夠得到一定的答案就如同剛剛其實也有一些資料顯示其實很多的虐案可能是盡情的行為那我們要怎麼去面對這樣子的一個家庭關係在犯罪結束甚至服刑結束之後他要怎麼樣重新的去做塑造"},{"start":15291.5,"end":15319.663,"text":"這個是我覺得應該要去再做討論的那最後我可能因為這是司法法治委員會但是可能可以有一些延伸的討論第一個的話其實是除了刑事責任之外相關的民事責任給予當事人的支持這點其實立法院在過去幾年修正被害者保護法的時候就已經做加強了但我覺得如果在虐案的部分其實更多的這種心理或者是社會架構的連結可能也是很重要的"},{"start":15320.143,"end":15349.651,"text":"那第二點的話就是那個對於家屬的支持因為當然每個家庭遇到的狀況不一樣我們要怎麼樣的讓一個家庭在受到衝擊在受到破壞的時候他能夠繼續的讓他的人生有意義存在讓這個家庭能夠繼續往前走那此外是剛剛幾位先生也有提到有關這個少事法跟特教法的修正那其實實務上據我所知其實學校在做IEP的"},{"start":15350.111,"end":15372.406,"text":"不是沒有只是那個IEP的到底是一個形式上的執行還是它實質上真的有在做這個我覺得我們可能可以再去做一些討論那最後我想這個今天的目標當然以立法院這個最高民意機關我覺得回應民意或者甚至應該說行政機關回應民意是一個很"},{"start":15373.126,"end":15382.254,"text":"很重要的事情那只是回應民意他不一定是完全百分之百跟著民意走吳寧說是當民意出現的時候我們怎麼樣的去做討論"},{"start":15383.171,"end":15412.306,"text":"去找到合理去找到那個病徵並且去做對症下藥就如同我們在討論前幾天不幸的這個北大國小的車禍案件的時候我們在思考的可能是交通問題我們在思考的可能是這個老人駕車的問題抑或是怒怒症的問題那而不要一下子就把問題就導向就是我要怎麼去懲罰這一個做出事的人即便他確實應該受到懲罰那以上是我簡單的發言那跟主席抱歉我可能等一下會先離開"},{"start":15413.339,"end":15437.192,"text":"那這個是跟各位做的一個可能不算是專家但是是一個心得的分享謝謝各位好那我們謝謝周律師的寶貴意見今天公立會其實就是要建立一個平台讓大家能夠多討論而且我們把一些意見民間的想法告訴法務部讓法務部能夠多聆聽好那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":15452.376,"end":15479.566,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這麼重要一個公聽會也謝謝這麼多專家寫者還有我們的行政部門在這邊傾聽共同來解決問題今天我們談內同案談凱凱老蔣是很不捨的心疼大家都知道我以前在電視主持節目"},{"start":15481.755,"end":15507.94,"text":"每次談到內同的這個案子我都拜託說那個馬賽克一定要打然後我拜託我的來賓啊有些細節不要講得太細因為太不忍了看到那個畫面講起那個凱凱他想起那個凱凱一歲半的一個小孩子被那種虐待那是多心疼的一個事情"},{"start":15510.984,"end":15536.497,"text":"我本身大學練的是社會系我好多朋友好多同學學長學弟妹們都在社福的體系裡面工作社工園生命線在第一線我也深深的了解我們的兒少的保護體系是非常弱勢的很多地方很多地方真的非常的無力感"},{"start":15538.055,"end":15565.322,"text":"所以今天一方面謝謝主席排的這麼重要的會一方面我想要明白的表達面對層出不窮而且是越來越嚴重的兒童內帶案政府包括立法院我覺得包括全民應該是有責任去解決這問題的包括法律它如果是正義"},{"start":15568.032,"end":15597.385,"text":"他應該是要解決問題的而不是一直在製造問題的從這次凱凱案大家回過頭通案去看這段時間的這個兒童虐待案就是在一直在增加當中嘛剛講凱凱案我看今天大家有談到一個案子2015年花蓮發生情侶一對情侶他用七大酷刑"},{"start":15600.728,"end":15628.483,"text":"他內帶了一個三歲的小女童死刑案那時候大家知道嗎2017年這個案子後來判了多少年一條人命兒童內帶那麼嚴重慘不忍睹判13年6個月實際上服刑只有6年多那這不是個案絕大部分那種慘絕人倫讓人家心痛心疼那種兒童送內案"},{"start":15630.523,"end":15659.199,"text":"都判得很輕啦 不要說無極徒刑判得很輕一半的時間又放出來了然後你就看到案子一直一直在增加我們是不是應該挺身而出要讓這些悲劇不要再發生呢所以台灣民眾黨非常具體的提出來對於兒童內帶致死"},{"start":15660.751,"end":15688.677,"text":"最重死刑或無期徒刑 可是這個無期徒刑要引進像歐盟這樣 要是一個終身監禁 不得假釋我很高興 我剛剛也問了法務部好像大家也比較慢慢有往這個方向在走事實上前幾天聽到法務部說已經有14萬人連署要求要重罰"},{"start":15690.219,"end":15716.394,"text":"要判死刑或者是剛剛民眾黨提的無期徒刑法務部有一度說不宜採納還好還好今天經過這段時間的溝通今天看起來是有好的答案了很期待法務部三個月內嘛三個月內而且往這個方向"},{"start":15717.881,"end":15742.559,"text":"法律是要解決問題的我們很期待透過我們法律的修法讓悲劇可以不要再發生在大法官會議大法官提名的時候我有跟中線一起邀了很多受害者的家屬請聽他們的聲音"},{"start":15746.55,"end":15772.18,"text":"包括獅頭獎米教師的家屬包括台南有兩位英勇的員警不幸殉職他們的家屬來我知道今天也有受害者的家屬在現場齊凱必須跟大家講那天我跟鍾憲在傾聽受害者的家屬的時候"},{"start":15775.148,"end":15804.555,"text":"你是難過的因為你很難想像一個人受到那麼大的一個折磨跟無奈另外一個發現是什麼發現我們現在台灣的社會不只是法律甚至整個社會裡面對加害者的保護跟提供幫助非常非常的周到相對之下被害人包括被害者的家屬是非常的無奈的像那一天兩位警察的"},{"start":15806.544,"end":15835.911,"text":"他們家屬來 他們說啊他們無力 所以他們頂多只能找到一位律師可是呢 法服啊 或者一些團體他們拿我們人民的納稅錢我們去補助了法服 協助了法服法服去幫他們找了很多的律師去幫加害人台灣現在的法律跟我們現在社會上的一個就是在這個 本來是公平的一個司法現在看起來是嚴重傾斜的"},{"start":15836.943,"end":15846.41,"text":"就包括我們今天在談的 售內小孩已經那麼可憐了他售內是死了誰幫他們講話呢好 最後我做個簡單的這個總結今天我剛聆聽了多位這個學者專家包括家長還有教育團體他們甚至都做了一個民調了"},{"start":15865.031,"end":15893.562,"text":"而且從最近的這個民調大家也看得很清楚不只那麼多人上街抗議有高達將近14萬人已經連署了我覺得從法務部一直到立法委員跟我們全民要去回應民意特別是內統這個案子一直在發生而且一直沒有一個解決的方案顯然他的遏止力是有問題的我們希望這個悲劇不要再發生"},{"start":15894.85,"end":15917.54,"text":"所以拜託大家今天我們當然是傾聽各方面的這個意見不過今天聽下來很清楚的很多民眾都認為應該是要解決問題的很期待三個月後我們可以看到法務部一個符合全民而且是可以讓悲劇不要再發生的一個修正案 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請吳嘉琳律師"},{"start":15925.015,"end":15944.429,"text":"主席各位專家然後各位長官大家好那我是橫沿法律事務所的吳嘉玲律師那其實我的經驗比較特殊啦就是因為我之前有從事刑事審判的工作那其實我也有審理過就是很重大的殺人的案子"},{"start":15944.969,"end":15965.803,"text":"那當然我不會去討論我之前審理過的個案啦但是因為後來我轉任律師之後其實我也有在世界各地有旅居過啦那其實我覺得這個問題其實在討論到法律問題之前我覺得我個人的心得其實覺得所有的憾事大家都不希望發生但所有的憾事其實都是起源於家庭"},{"start":15966.804,"end":15985.014,"text":"那我走過了很多的國家我自己至少覺得台灣其實做的目前是還是很不夠的以我待過新加坡而言我覺得新加坡很他很重視家庭的這個角色因為其實所有的問題都是來自於家庭功能的失去了功能"},{"start":15985.774,"end":16011.813,"text":"那整個社會對於家庭的支持不管是說針對小孩的支持工作上的支持我覺得台灣都是很不夠的那只要家庭的功能是健全的其實本質上我們或許今天在討論這個議題的時候其實大家就不用再這麼針鋒相對因為事情會少很多好那我先進入一下法律的問題好了因為針對第一個討論的提綱其實我個人"},{"start":16013.235,"end":16031.196,"text":"以一個民眾的角度來看,當大家看到刑法328條針對強盜致死有死刑的時候,但是卻看到凌虐兒童致死卻沒有死刑的時候,我想其實一般合理的第三人都是沒有辦法接受的。"},{"start":16032.137,"end":16059.278,"text":"這個我覺得應該是無庸置疑的但我只是覺得這是從一般民眾的角度來看但我只是想要提醒立法的諸公要考慮幾點首先當然前面的很多人有提到就是關於公正公約因為內國法化之後有提到說只有最嚴重的罪才能處以死刑這個我想大家也沒有任何的疑問那現在我覺得修法最大的阻礙應該是最新的憲法法庭的判決"},{"start":16060.259,"end":16086.494,"text":"那其實我也無意去做評論那當然憲法法庭他認為說只有直接故意才有死刑的空間的情況下到底立法者還可不可以去突破這個憲法法庭的見解然後去增定一個死刑我覺得這個是一個念法律多年的人心眼的第一個疑惑那我必須老講以我個人立場來講我個人是"},{"start":16088.035,"end":16094.962,"text":"比較傾向於各個憲法上的機關應該要去透過自己憲法上所賦予的權利來進行對話"},{"start":16096.724,"end":16120.556,"text":"白話點來講就是我不覺得立法機關必須要當然的受到憲法法庭的絕對的100%的拘束老實講如果是受到100%的拘束我想今天大家也不用在這裡討論說我到底要不要加一個死刑因為憲法法庭它已經有一個很具體的介面甚至有很嚴格的限制"},{"start":16121.676,"end":16144.689,"text":"所以我個人覺得其實或許的情況下會變成說就算立法進行了修法會變成說那是不是接下來憲法法庭又要再透過其他的個案再來表示意見透過一個在憲法制度下大家有一個在繼續溝通的空間這個我覺得是可以思考的啦那當然其實我個人對於所謂的"},{"start":16145.468,"end":16157.585,"text":"間接故意是不是就不能判死我我自己也是打一個很大的問號因為如果有從事刑事懲判職務其實大家會知道其實社會所有的社會的案件其實太陽太多了"},{"start":16158.638,"end":16186.341,"text":"直接造成直接的故意是不是所有的案子直接故意當然它的可規則性就一定大於間接故意這個我覺得是要打一個很大的問號的因為間接故意造成的傷害它的範圍我先講生命權的個數有可能都有可能在個案中會超過了直接故意所造成的死亡的人數那這個到底怎麼去衡量更何況其實在司法審判實務"},{"start":16187.702,"end":16215.641,"text":"那個直接故意跟間接故意我自己認為其實都是一念之間因為你沒有辦法把一個人腦袋撥開來然後說你到底是直接故意還是間接故意所以最後會變成說法官他在判斷的時候他可能有時候會採取最有利於最有利於被告的原則所以他只能去認定間接故意但是實際上他造成的生命權的危害可能是相對於直接故意是更多的"},{"start":16216.556,"end":16244.887,"text":"所以我個人其實沒有不覺得說直接故意才有死刑這個命題我個人是抱持一個很大的疑問的那當然現在是第二個問題就是也是這一次修法很大的問題是關於那個無期徒刑不得假釋老實講我個人是蠻反對這樣的一個做法的因為我覺得其實有期徒刑或無期徒刑所有的刑罰都是要讓"},{"start":16246.994,"end":16275.455,"text":"犯罪行為的人可以復歸社會當然無期徒刑有些人可能會說他沒有辦法復歸社會了但我覺得有一個很大的問題是當你一個沒有辦法假釋的無期徒刑去執行的時候在監所的面向而言他到底怎麼去管理這一個受刑人這是個很大的問題因為你要把他永遠隔絕於社會但是他還是存在在台灣的社會裡面只是大家把他放在監所裡面大家永遠都不想跟他接觸"},{"start":16276.756,"end":16302.008,"text":"但這個真的是可行的嗎我也是打一個很大的問號但是我基本上我是反對說以假釋制度針對無期徒刑而言讓他在很早的時間內就讓他可以不用再受到刑的指引這個我是當然是絕對贊成的只是說在這個讓他怎麼決定假釋而且加上現在假釋的決定我認為其實是可以更加的透明"},{"start":16302.808,"end":16320.679,"text":"讓民眾可以知道說針對特定個案的假釋到底是怎麼做成的決定然後跟相關在參與這個決定的專家他發表了什麼意見我覺得這個適度的透明應該是要讓民眾可以知道的不然其實民眾都只看到結果而沒看到過程"},{"start":16321.579,"end":16334.508,"text":"我相信以台灣民眾的目前的公民的社會的法治的素養其實在大家看到了這些透明化的東西我相信大家都會有所思考有所反思這樣其實這個社會才會繼續進步"},{"start":16337.082,"end":16363.422,"text":"那這樣其實我覺得就是關於那個無期徒刑不得不得假釋其實也會可能會違反那個兩公約已經內國法案的兩公約啊因為其實大家如果知道啊其實不得假釋的無期徒刑其實歐洲人的法院我印象中應該是有個個案是已經認為說這個已經構成那個所謂的殘酷的刑罰啦就完全不得假釋是構成那再加上再回到那個公正公約它又已經內國法化的情況下如果要去增訂這個條文我覺得是會有違反"},{"start":16365.464,"end":16369.785,"text":"公正公約的規定的嫌疑那這個部分可能是大家要注意的"},{"start":16373.51,"end":16395.458,"text":"好那關於最後一個問題就關於那個被害人的訴訟參與權我個人在刑事審判實務的過程中我個人是支持說要增加這個被害人的角色但是我會建議說其實立法者在考慮的時候要注意一個因為刑事訴訟的制度在這五到十年來有了非常大的變革"},{"start":16396.789,"end":16423.209,"text":"但就我從審判者跟辯護人的角度觀察很多時候最終都留於刑事就是所有都是就是你為了通知而通知然後你為了要讓他來而讓他來但大家沒有想到一個問題是在有些狀況下被害人他真的想來嗎然後跟你應該要怎麼樣實質的讓他有機會來表達意見而不是造成二次的傷害"},{"start":16424.11,"end":16451.725,"text":"那再加上那個關於那個虐童案的備案其實我不確定大家有沒有注意到其實除了那個參與刑事訴訟之後的上訴權、結論權的部分其實目前的那個兒少保護法其實有針對兒童及少年犯罪其實是可以獨立告訴的啦所以其實現在現行法其實已經有一些制度來針對這個情況下去適度的保護這個沒有辦法自己表達意見的一些兒童的狀況"},{"start":16452.796,"end":16468.829,"text":"那當然我覺得其實在改革的過程中應該要去考慮一個問題就是當這些制度套用到刑事審判的制度的時候如何不要讓它留於刑事然後在不要留於刑事的過程中到底要怎麼樣是真正的讓"},{"start":16470.868,"end":16488.75,"text":"被害人的聲音是可以被表達出來的那這個因為我剛剛有聽到剛剛有專家有提到提到說是不是讓有一個被害人的代理人的制度嗎被害人的強制代理我覺得這是個蠻好的制度啦就是說讓被害人的聲音你不一定要讓他直接到法庭上來"},{"start":16489.631,"end":16512.953,"text":"那你有透過一個代理或強制代理的制度其實你也是實質的才能實質的保讓被害人的聲音他有得到了一個有專業的意見讓他了解整個程序的過程然後也讓他在這個程序中他的程序受到了保障那以上是我的意見 謝謝好 謝謝大律師給我們不同的思考面向那下一位我們請林志豪理事長"},{"start":16524.294,"end":16549.852,"text":"主席我能不能跟您一個請求因為今天唯一的被害者家屬跟我共用時間好沒問題就請上台朱律師是我們割喉案的割喉案那一件有見過好請開始那我們就我先讓被害人今天他是唯一的嘛我先讓他講然後我再來講好謝謝"},{"start":16555.392,"end":16580.216,"text":"趙偉還有各位長官大家好少年事件保護法我說這個保護法都是在保護這些犯罪的人嗎對於被害者的權利反而被剝奪被害人僅有抗告權資訊獲取權"},{"start":16583.615,"end":16606.224,"text":"亦非當事人或訴訟參與人難道這些罪犯的人權才是人權被害者的人權被害者就該被漠視嗎整個少司法保護非法可以無限上綱嗎司法少年可以擁有至高的殺人權"},{"start":16607.83,"end":16636.451,"text":"法院可以重疊的給予優渥的處遇再減刑對於少年割喉案事件一審判決已沒有無期徒刑跟死刑然後先減刑判八到九年之後還可以再減刑三年就可以回歸社會然後還前科徒銷"},{"start":16639.589,"end":16661.366,"text":"這是邵氏吧不是不就是黑箱一個黑箱一個貨源嗎沒關係慢慢講慢慢講第一個"},{"start":16676.792,"end":16684.655,"text":"很感謝今天的主席中線委員你們所屬的法治委員會司法法治委員會還有國民黨黨官紅衛委員還有靖榮律師"},{"start":16706.57,"end":16732.826,"text":"你們所有的有形無形的對被愛者的家屬我們都放在心上滴水之恩 永泉相報知恩感恩 感情才會深在從去年的12月3號中宣委員跟我們"},{"start":16734.191,"end":16754.678,"text":"為了大法官釋憲 憲判八號產生後續的處理結果呢 是什麼法官都是你們來當好人被害人形同孤兒如同我今天準備的這些資料"},{"start":16756.624,"end":16784.938,"text":"刑事訴訟司法制度中結構性的不正義被害人長期被邊緣化形同在法庭上的孤兒那我又舉了在第六頁12345這麼多的案例尤其一直到前一陣子高雄碎屍惡魔無期假釋他在二十幾年前已經是殺了人那你們還讓他放出來然後又有這麼多無辜的人"},{"start":16786.232,"end":16809.973,"text":"所以說我們生命權平等協會我們非常的痛心在死刑執行的國家日本跟美國目前根本沒有量刑鑑定那現在我的協會目前全台灣社會重大矚目案件全部都在我的協會高雄屍奪獎案台灣殺警案"},{"start":16816.966,"end":16840.718,"text":"還有戈壕案新北獨駕殺警案還有讓我們國家非常丟臉的馬來西亞長榮女大生劍殺案他們的父母他們的同胞告訴我們我是送小孩子來讀書的"},{"start":16845.919,"end":16868.3,"text":"不是來送死的那我們當今我們所面臨的我們不能去講空話講大話講冠冕堂皇的話中憲召委紅衛委員還有國昌委員今天講的都非常的好七海委員都講的非常好包括"},{"start":16869.554,"end":16885.259,"text":"那個村北議委員也都說了還有我們的民團的友人那個妮妮還有蕭理事長還有李小姐還有王理事長我們到底是需要的是什麼樣的一個社會"},{"start":16887.403,"end":16915.533,"text":"你難道要讓這些被害人明明在這個我們目前的訴訟的體制中被害人就是一個附屬品嘛你就是只能在辯論終點的時候對量刑的你把意見 可是法官也不一定要有意見啊好 憲判製說什麼叫做最嚴重的犯刑那我請問一下今天因為司徒講我的榮譽理事長沒有在我才敢講"},{"start":16916.755,"end":16922.502,"text":"不然我講說實在這對他是一個很大的傷害他眼淚已經流乾了搶劫性侵凌虐用榔頭敲了十字架敲到腦漿都出來了"},{"start":16935.663,"end":16949.746,"text":"然後還把乳頭咬掉這樣不是最嚴重的犯罪我請問你你們司法院所屬的在座的每一個人你告訴我這樣不是最嚴重的犯罪嗎全台灣還有什麼比這個更嚴重的犯罪結果你們司法霸凌他怎麼司法霸凌呢"},{"start":16963.697,"end":16980.443,"text":"高分檢高大方檢察官竟然冷血他說最高法院齁沒有不是判死刑啦所以你不需要知道啦你不需要知道怎麼判的啦法官到底有沒有一致決"},{"start":16981.803,"end":17009.269,"text":"就公文給他可以這樣嗎我連我太太被強姦強暴凌虐致死連乳頭都咬掉我連知道說我太太你們法官怎麼判的要是怎麼死的都連這樣最卑微的請求都沒有今天你們看到我的我寫的這些這些都全部都是被害人所寫的我就只是很簡單的問了一句話"},{"start":17010.748,"end":17029.755,"text":"我們將心比心,異地有處今天換成是你,尤其是我們在座的女生你們有太太,有小孩,有媽媽你們包括凱凱這種,還有戈厚安他講到朱理事,我的理事,他講到說不出話來"},{"start":17032.678,"end":17058.95,"text":"我今天我在還沒上台之前我有跟廳長說我說我們今天不是來吵架的我們是來解決問題的我非常感謝中憲委員中憲委員真的就是弱勢團體的代表他過去一年來對這些所有弱勢的被害人所有的還有金融律師 紅衛委員一直給我們很大的幫助那我只想講"},{"start":17060.302,"end":17071.672,"text":"我們我們到底有沒有要解決這個社會問題你不能好人都你來當啊然後我們這些我們這些被害人形同孤兒一樣啊所以說面對邪惡卻保持緘默就是邪惡"},{"start":17085.265,"end":17106.054,"text":"上帝不會判定我們無辜不說話也等於說話不作為也是一種作為我們現在的司法制度不是這樣子嗎我們不能僅僅為那些不公平之輪所碾壓的傷者司法霸凌的被害人更要修正司法這輪子的本身人性的醜陋就是對強者極度的寬容對我們這些被害人"},{"start":17116.089,"end":17132.163,"text":"在法庭上連說話的權利都沒有連獨立上訴權都沒有剛剛那個蔡主任檢察官還有林玉順教授所有他們都講得很好啊我們連罪在法庭上受到的尊重都沒有連席位都沒有"},{"start":17133.104,"end":17150.911,"text":"所以你在這些強者殺害人家的被告你在替他們很寬容的找盡了所有刑事訴訟法以被告為主導然後把被害人全部的權利通通都沒有所以說我希望每一個人當你不管你是法律人還是非法律人這是台大榮譽教授黃仲堅所講的"},{"start":17164.151,"end":17189.387,"text":"當你在做一個法律主張的時候至少都每一個人都要有一個道德的義務永續的思考不斷的去求知問自己這樣公平嗎被害人這樣公平嗎死人是不會說話的那活的人你又不讓他說話那這個社會上的公理正義到底在哪裡所以說今天"},{"start":17190.612,"end":17218.573,"text":"中線委員辦了這個國民黨團辦了這個公聽會你們創造一個歷史我也希望可以立下一個典範所謂立下一個典範是在我們的刑事訴訟法在被害人參與訴訟的這個過程中可以形成三讀的立法你們都是我們的恩人也是我們被害人的恩人所以滴水之恩用泉相報那我再讓那個我的助理是講一下話好嗎"},{"start":17221.115,"end":17236.767,"text":"我把那個整個案件先講一下就是他在發生事情前郭先生就已經有經常攜帶危險器械彈簧刀法院並沒有適當的管理將其放任這個是第一件事情"},{"start":17237.884,"end":17261.934,"text":"第二件事情是郭生跟林生他本來就有共同犯案的前科那這個案子沒有結束之後就將這兩個人陸續回歸學校而且他是同時回歸到清水高中、富社國中這個是第二個放任他們要給這兩個殺人犯授教權"},{"start":17264.134,"end":17290.105,"text":"卻剝奪了誠信寶貴的生命一審法官還強行碾壓公平正義給予輕判少事法的條文不是大字寫著保障少年健全自我成長環境這句話難道不包含保障生命安全嗎還是說少事法只是保障非法然後可以踐踏碾壓生命的大法"},{"start":17300.298,"end":17314.086,"text":"再來我們要講就是說法律判案最重要的是講求證據那我們為了這個刑事案件能夠順利的進行在鄉議院報告"},{"start":17316.089,"end":17343.527,"text":"的時候就已經有講到說有幾乎快10刀的證據可是為了說要能夠讓兇手能夠得到更明確的證據所以我們除了相驗報告的這個證據之外我們還必須要再讓已經受到重大傷殘的兒子再做一次解剖"},{"start":17344.858,"end":17364.323,"text":"然後才可以得到更有力的證據還是要忍痛去做那判決書說他們之前這兩個人沒有任何的刑事案件所以呢就"},{"start":17367.659,"end":17395.007,"text":"就幫他們做檢刑問題是他們因為邵氏法的原因他們都做行政處遇當然就是不會有所刑事案刑事的部分啊都已經檢刑過了當然不會有啊然後一審法官竟然這樣子冠冕堂皇的就寫沒有刑事案件然後睜眼說瞎話幫忙做一個檢刑"},{"start":17396.209,"end":17408.693,"text":"然後再說他們什麼家庭教育環境不髒原生環境不良這個是我們造成他們的傷害嗎這個也可以作為減刑的依據嗎然後再又引用判決書上說第18條14歲未滿18歲的行為人"},{"start":17422.884,"end":17452.311,"text":"得減刑可是問題是得減刑法官他還是有他的裁量權啊不是必減刑那犯下殺人罪還要幫他減刑這個理由真的是很牽強明眼的人看到就知道說這個是法官在霸凌我們被害者家屬一個孩子我們生養十幾年他隨便一句話說沒事就沒事"},{"start":17456.209,"end":17481.127,"text":"那剛剛講的就是事前的這些這些就是已經攜帶器械啊然後為什麼可以回歸學校這個啊我們都有去教育部教育局然後甚至司法單位我們都有去陳情然後請他們告訴我們說他們到底"},{"start":17482.779,"end":17509.307,"text":"是哪一個階段沒有跟學校講好或是說司法院的少保官沒有通知學校到底是哪一個階段出了差錯可是問題是我們都會回到一個答案就是因為個資保保護因為少資保保護所以這個不能夠告知就是保密的意思拿這個來搪塞我們的權利"},{"start":17512.037,"end":17533.587,"text":"難道說我們被害者陳勳被殘忍傷害之後還要受國家制度再抹煞一次嗎?再重傷一次嗎?然後講到正能的部分"},{"start":17535.848,"end":17557.361,"text":"同為青少年的A1 也是他們的同學出庭作證 肇事法在講保護可是他對證人並沒有去保護他他要求我們的證人必須要當場跟那兩個殺人犯對峙"},{"start":17562.45,"end":17582.887,"text":"這對未來如果說他們真的就是判個三年之後回歸社會難道說法律可以保障他們的生命安全嗎難道說他們不會被這兩個人再追殺嗎他在學校都可以這樣兇殘一直追殺我兒子到死了"},{"start":17605.182,"end":17615.932,"text":"事發的當時鈴聲挑起這個過程其實時間很短鈴聲挑起然後叫郭聲進到教室然後"},{"start":17618.39,"end":17627.581,"text":"然後他同學有另外一個同學要去他有看到那個郭生有要掏刀郭生要去阻止的時候林生就叫他滾開"},{"start":17630.385,"end":17647.834,"text":"然後沒你的事情然後就說打死他 給他死然後他很開心在旁邊笑這個法院都有證據存在然後郭生就很瞬間的殺了七刀都是頸動脈 心肺 腎臟這樣子殺這樣還不夠凶殘嗎"},{"start":17658.826,"end":17678.156,"text":"陳馨就是在這種被使命追殺的狀態在學校就已經生命中止了法官竟然不以此做判斷然後找一堆牽強的理由做減刑一身法官可以無限上綱的重犯殺人犯才在孩子血淋淋的屍體做未減刑而減刑嗎"},{"start":17692.779,"end":17705.48,"text":"然後法官認定鄰女有串證的事實這些他們也沒有把他加重罪行啊再來就是"},{"start":17707.264,"end":17728.95,"text":"他當初刀子是從哪裡收出來的是警察到校之後才從郭聲身上肉收出來的不是他自己繳出來的他這個也有逃避責任的現場他現行犯他當場也是逃避責任這個不重責不加重然後減刑再減刑"},{"start":17733.7,"end":17758.569,"text":"林女士事後,她是完全不承認有這件事情問題是事情是她挑起來的而且他們都是邵氏把保護下的雷犯這些都應該是要加重罪行結果卻相反,一直在保護他們"},{"start":17767.816,"end":17796.03,"text":"很抱歉他講的有一點隱藏因為他從兒子被殺害到現在根本從頭到尾沒有一次可以好好讓他暢所欲言所以我今天你們的寬容也是一種修復式的正義也是一種撫慰人心的對家屬的一個安慰那我也非常感謝中線委員然後等一下燕秀委員跟全民委員也可以"},{"start":17797.605,"end":17824.981,"text":"安撫我們被害人家屬他實在是因為他從來沒有講過話從來沒辦法表達在法庭上講的話也沒有幾分鐘法官就不讓他講了法官說我們小孩的名字不可以出現在社會大眾被殺的小孩還要從此被隱姓埋名然後從此沒落在這個世界當中這個是什麼道理"},{"start":17826.158,"end":17853.026,"text":"我連講我兒子被殺都不能講說要用違反各執法要辦我們那我就跟他們夫妻講你來辦我吧我自首啊我兒子被殺我講出他的名字我不能講有這種事我兒子被殺了我連吭聲都不能吭聲我的訴訟權利都沒有真的太離譜了啦我們人跟人之間"},{"start":17855.373,"end":17878.184,"text":"至少要有一種同理心我們今天我不是要批評在場的政府官員或是什麼 不是我們是要如何去落實真正的修復式正義避免下一個被害人再發生所以這也是中宪委員長久以來一直站在弱勢他選擇站在雞蛋的那一方"},{"start":17879.705,"end":17887.61,"text":"跟國常委員他們兩個人講話一定是認定事實絕對憑證據的嘛但是有些人就偏偏要要去"},{"start":17890.356,"end":17915.943,"text":"模糊焦點混淆增點然後偷換概念他們講的意思真的今天是第一次我相信也是第二次那我在此下個禮拜5月27號我們生命權平等協會會開了一個研討會在1014那我們所有的當天所有的被害人目前全台灣社會重大矚目安全被害人全部都會來現身說法那我們今天講到這邊好不好"},{"start":17917.284,"end":17933.756,"text":"這個後面我再講一下這個案件還在上訴當中我希望就是高等法院的法官可以還給我們程序一個公平正義不要讓孩子在這樣子殘殺之後還讓他成冤莫白這也是"},{"start":17935.148,"end":17962.381,"text":"台灣少年事件處理法改革之後的第一個案件如果以此為案例以後少年如果凶殘夠凶殘就是他們的天下我希望不要發生這種事情再次的在這邊跟各位長官還有就是各位專家講如果"},{"start":17966.411,"end":17983.402,"text":"就是高等法院上訴之後能夠還給我們一個真正的公平他已經沒有死刑沒有無期徒刑已經很糟糕了不要說他們什麼虐兒事件無期徒刑我們連30年都沒有"},{"start":17984.002,"end":18001.461,"text":"只判八年跟九年然後三年就可以假釋然後不只這樣子他剛剛所講的證人有可能會被追殺替他們作證的證人還有他們的家人還有我司徒獎司徒獎的被害人殺警案的被害人"},{"start":18002.222,"end":18023.922,"text":"他們每一個人害怕得要死啊全部一個家分在住四個地方不敢住在同一個地方啊這是事實啊任何一個人講真話講實話應該都是要受到我們這個社會的聲援支持發聲站出來不是這樣嗎如果你今天事不關己明天你就會身不由己"},{"start":18024.943,"end":18037.073,"text":"不是這樣嗎所以我希望法務部跟司法院可以跟我們對話可以跟我們生命平等權對話我是可以跟你們搭起一個這樣的橋樑賴總統在兩個禮拜前為了我協會另外一個理事軍用案17年"},{"start":18041.917,"end":18062.147,"text":"我也幫他辦了一個追思會空軍事運部也辦了一個追思會我們不是要來鬧事的我們被害人只是最卑微的請求就像我們的資料這邊還有我的名片的背後我們邀的那個只是最基本的人權非常謝謝等一下感謝瓊英委員跟燕秀委員幫我們媽媽加油一下謝謝最後感謝趙偉還有各位就是長官還有各位專家謝謝大家"},{"start":18071.83,"end":18099.653,"text":"謝謝喔我想我剛我來回應一下因為我自己當局長在新北當局長的時候就已經就已經接觸到這個戈侯案所以我心裡感觸很深那我的心也是露座的這個金恩博士說的話社會的悲劇不是壞人的囂張是好人的沉默"},{"start":18101.428,"end":18129.325,"text":"因為這幾年我一直跟著那個家屬所以我心裡很有感觸剛好在當新北局長的時候就有接觸到這件那個割喉案那我想說徐市長張小雯市長還有那個劉怡婷的主任檢察官還有兩位廳長其實我們我們以前當司法官我們就是對抗這些邪惡我們都看過很多刑案現場"},{"start":18131.958,"end":18154.318,"text":"我們也看過很多解剖很多被害人家屬的那種心痛欲絕所以我一直說我不是說雙手支持死刑這樣子因為有時候你不得不啦這是社會的問題我也不是廝殺我也不喜歡奪人性命但是我就常講一句話叫做"},{"start":18156.197,"end":18183.323,"text":"殺生為眾生斬業非斬人我不是在取他的命我是在維護眾生所以我一直希望說我們站出來要站在家屬的角度去思考很多事情所以這個案子我覺得這案子我要一路看下去尤其是我到立法院有很多被害家屬每一個案子都是痛徹心扉那個父母到我面前"},{"start":18185.711,"end":18211.797,"text":"抱頭痛哭你沒有辦法想像所以我是說我們自己思考我們的小孩他發燒或跌倒破一個小洞我們就心情痛就很痛希望替小孩承擔更何況那父母小孩被殺死就我們的司法讓他們變成是我國司法的孤兒沒有人在幫他我看到的是這樣"},{"start":18213.191,"end":18239.002,"text":"所以 所有的事情 我覺得我們都可以忍你看我們來自於政治的攻擊 輕鳥的 或這些政治的謾罵我們都不覺得 我都不當一回事但是我就說 我在面對這些死者的家屬我常 心裡過不去 我覺得對不起他們麻煩各位跟我一起 要為這個國家 為"},{"start":18241.021,"end":18250.114,"text":"這些受害的家屬 我們真的要努力下去 謝謝各位不好意思現在我們請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":18262.297,"end":18286.924,"text":"我想首先給剛剛的媽媽加油,我們都愛你我們都會一起把這個社會導向更正面我謝謝中心委員、召委能夠排定今天這個平台我認為在立法院我從政那麼久,經歷過的事件非常非常的多"},{"start":18289.249,"end":18312.904,"text":"家屬一聲吶喊說 惠恩 很可憐的啊 怎麼還要解剖我們真的不知道該怎麼安慰這個家屬但是我們又希望能夠找出真相這三十幾年來 我碰到了很多的這些案例我希望我們的社會是祥和的"},{"start":18314.4,"end":18343.586,"text":"早上一早我來登記發言的時候有一個媽媽在外面她跟著記者我從側面過去我真的我也眼淚流下來她一直吶喊說為什麼我們台灣社會這個社會的氛圍怎麼變成這個樣子當時我真的很想要抱抱她不過我們還是要勇敢的去面對我想我們還是有方法的"},{"start":18347.312,"end":18349.783,"text":"衛護部在今年四月份的時候 它有一個統計"},{"start":18352.867,"end":18377.181,"text":"在這最近五年國內的孽嬰嬰兒受虐的比例它是增長的而且我們看統計到去年2024年五月份它的比例是前一年度的1.2倍換句話說每一年有將近兩千名的孩童受虐有九成三的對象是家內事件施虐的是以父母的占比84%"},{"start":18379.722,"end":18396.648,"text":"那祖父母的部分呢 親屬的部分大概是這個12%父母同居人的部分大概是4%其餘的部分呢 是這個家外事件發生那它多數多數發生在托育照顧的這個場域裡頭"},{"start":18399.454,"end":18418.046,"text":"所以我們要統計一個數字每一年有26名的兒少呢遭到照顧者不當的對待導致嚴重的傷害或失望在這些重大的傷害當中事件當中我們看到又有其中有五成都是判定惱死的"},{"start":18419.859,"end":18429.461,"text":"腦部受傷的而且甚至還有25%他是不治身亡的那在這75%以外他可能造成他終生不可逆的一個傷害所以我們看到這樣子的數據告訴我們這些腦傷案大概有九成他發生在兩歲以下的幼兒那可能"},{"start":18447.572,"end":18462.587,"text":"將害者他一時的情緒失控不當的對待對於孩童造成的永久性的這個嚴重傷害我想虐童案呢到目前我講的這個社會面向的數字告訴社會大眾"},{"start":18466.926,"end":18494.364,"text":"虐童案的發生民眾是不斷的在憤怒那麼之前的凱凱案甚至有民眾號召上街頭呼籲必須在刑法徵定虐殺兒童罪也有民眾到我們行政院公共政策網路參與的這個平台他去提議希望修法增加凌虐兒童的行動呢凌虐之死者最高可以判處死刑"},{"start":18495.345,"end":18524.589,"text":"而且是不得來假釋這是人民怒吼憤怒的一個建言在我們行政院的這個平台但是我看到法務部在第一時間是不予採納是不予採納但是還好最後法務部鄭部長也改口了他表示劣童行為人神共憤天理難容"},{"start":18525.768,"end":18545.626,"text":"所以 應當要正言義 更周延的法律來保護還好政府有講出了這一句話那本席認為 我們今天充分的聽到各方的意見尤其目前在少子化的這個社會當中每一個孩子都是寶貝"},{"start":18547.404,"end":18571.821,"text":"所以因此我們更有這個義務要好好的保護這些孩子的權利讓孩子快樂學習成長這是一個民主國家最基本的必要條件應當要做到的所以我看到有很多的孩子他還小他甚至連求救的吶喊聲都還來不及"},{"start":18576.215,"end":18604.114,"text":"如果像這樣的現象一直持續的在發生那我們這個社會要如何的來形容所以我認為導致兒童死亡暴力的受虐的這一些犯行惡劣毫無人性我們應該要提升幼童凌虐致死者的最高刑度是有必要的是有必要的"},{"start":18605.399,"end":18632.47,"text":"所以因此提高刑責是民意但是更是一個態度的一個展現讓虐頭案不要再發生讓虐童的犯人應該受到應有的一個懲罰用修法來展現我們保護孩童的一個決心用具體的行動來宣告台灣不接受這樣子的惡劣的行為"},{"start":18633.655,"end":18652.105,"text":"完善的一個法律制度才能夠真正的保護我們兒少的一個權益所以我心情蠻澎湃的因為很多的以前的陳情案歷歷在我的腦海中我真的真的要拜託大家"},{"start":18652.905,"end":18667.74,"text":"今天他們都願意出來願意出來講我們的行政部門請你們務必要詳細的來展示我們到底要怎麼樣保護我們的兒少我楊瓊怡一定會全力以赴謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請李彥秀委員發言"},{"start":18686.411,"end":18710.527,"text":"感謝朝偉今天排了這個議題公聽會的時間非常長從今天早上九點到現在一視同仁都沒有休息我相信這個議題對社會來說是一個相當大的共鳴無論剛才最後聽到楊理事長林理事長所反應的還有包括楊媽媽她切身的痛"},{"start":18712.403,"end":18726.515,"text":"我相信國人是有很多的感慨我們社會安全網要網住每一個孩子剛才也提到修復式的正義其實對於受害的家屬來說"},{"start":18728.593,"end":18744.16,"text":"相對是重要的所以我們如何在我們虐童的刑責的檢討當中能夠讓受害的家屬得到一些平復我覺得這也是我們這一次修法的重點"},{"start":18745.14,"end":18766.337,"text":"也因此在這邊我提出未來如何終結而虐的五支箭要補足兒少保護法的破網我也提出一些建議如果大家印象還深刻的時候大家應該記得小桃子在2022年11月送到保母家卻因為顱內出血後來造成來不及長大就斷送了性命這個個案當時"},{"start":18770.1,"end":18795.812,"text":"很多雙薪的家庭把孩子送到保母家 大家都在看大家也都有非常的擔憂 但這個案子到最後那個加害人最後在判有期徒刑9年3個月的定業執行4年半就可以假釋對於加害者的惡性跟被害者的無辜這樣的刑度是不是符合我們所謂我們常在喊的公平正義"},{"start":18797.284,"end":18823.318,"text":"很多刑度包括違反什麼相關金融的都有10年15年但是對於這樣的一個個案我們現在台灣孩子已經是少子化政府如何把社安網網住每一個孩子其實是相對重要政府在刑度有一定的嚇阻作用除了嚇阻作用之外對於修復的正義剛才林理事長所提的也非常的重要"},{"start":18824.298,"end":18844.907,"text":"所以第二我們在國內法化的兒童權利公約當中其實也明文的規定我們要盡最大的可能來保護我們的兒童的生存更要保護兒童不會受到任何形式的身心的暴力傷害跟虐待任何一個孩子他可以保障他應該有的固有的生命權"},{"start":18846.047,"end":18863.526,"text":"但是我們卻仍舊不斷地在台灣看到我們兒虐事件遭到侵犯我們現在規定的刑度高低差距事實上是非常的大所以也因此我們今天召委安排了一個回應民意對於虐童刑責的總檢討我覺得是相對的重要"},{"start":18865.868,"end":18886.219,"text":"未來如何對社會大眾傳遞我們對於兒童兒孽案件的深惡痛絕的決心所以這個刑度的討論我覺得是有必要請司法院跟法務部我們必須要深刻來去做檢討來回應所有的民意所以為了讓制度成為保護孩童最堅實的後盾刑罰未來也應該成為社會最強硬的力量我認為"},{"start":18892.222,"end":18912.011,"text":"我們應該來去參考兒童權利公約的體系從事前事中跟事後我們司法介入不同層面來持續的去做檢討也非常的重要那另外在事前的部分我真的建議包括在未還委員會我常常在講未來如何建立兒少的保護專責的部會包括"},{"start":18915.533,"end":18937.202,"text":"增設我們相關的兒少保護業務的公務人員以增加房市的助理員提升我們房市的功能這個也都是可以我們進一步的去做討論這些都能夠打開保護兒童的觸角進而預防遺憾的事情發生最後我再次提醒未來如何提升相關調查人員的勢能"},{"start":18939.443,"end":18949.393,"text":"包括所有的脆弱的家庭包括中高風險的家庭我們如何在社安網的部分提早去發現 提早去關注及時查明兒女的行為的跡象能在問題剛開始還沒發生之前我們就發出一定的信號出來"},{"start":18960.124,"end":18982.199,"text":"並且立即可以採取行動相關的行動來去做後續的處理那這個是第四點我要提出來的最後也就是我們今天的重點檢討現有的刑事責任跟假釋的制度嚇阻兒童的案件兒女的事件發生透過我們推動制度的修正讓孩子們可以撐起無憂無慮的成長快樂的環境這個是我們所要提出來"},{"start":18989.263,"end":19017.838,"text":"針對五點的面向我們希望未來有機會透過各部會去做修正但是今天回應民意在刑責的部分的總檢討我覺得是相對的重要因為刑責輕重不一這也造成社會對於這整件額略事件其實會有非常多的覺得我們應該調整我們身為有權力的可以去做調整我們確實應該努力去做一些法令上的一些調整跟修正謝謝"},{"start":19023.473,"end":19031.437,"text":"就我們安排這個公聽會當然主要是我覺得被害人的權利的保障其實"},{"start":19032.967,"end":19049.345,"text":"在目前我國司法制度上面是有一點失衡了其實應該說有嚴重的失衡了我們現在對於被告的保障遠優於被害人那我想說各位有實務經驗的人在場有非常多法官跟檢察官嘛大家過去有實務經驗應該很了解"},{"start":19051.027,"end":19073.705,"text":"目前確實保障他們有失衡有時候有一些法制是有一些坐在辦公室內的學者他們思考出來但是放在實務是不是適用我們就只能藉由這些公聽會來告訴大家那另外因為我到立法院一年多包括以前工作經驗其實我們接觸到非常多被害人那我在面前跟各位報告說其實你我都是好運因為"},{"start":19075.919,"end":19086.351,"text":"今天被害人的那種心痛一般我們可能只能體會到1%而已麻煩各位各機關的代表讓我們能夠"},{"start":19087.977,"end":19105.86,"text":"設身處地的去思考換位思考一下其實家屬家屬的無助感他已經發生這樣的憾事了結果後來他希望司法還他一個公正但是司法沒有還他公正所以他們跟我說他們是司法的孤兒因為沒有司法沒有幫他那他來拜託告訴我很多"},{"start":19106.954,"end":19135.282,"text":"死者過去的事情跟現在自己家家裡面的事情那其實我每次聽完我心情都很不好回家都好幾天來回復心情這我想說可能各位沒有辦法理解這個但是這個真的是只有被害家屬心中痛苦的1%而已所以我還是蠻希望說這個司法機關的部分我們能夠多想一下看制度面能夠怎麼樣去處理然後"},{"start":19136.536,"end":19145.323,"text":"我們不能讓他們變成孤兒啦我們對於正義都有那種無可救藥的熱情所以還是要出來"},{"start":19146.687,"end":19172.203,"text":"那個協助這些被害人家屬這是我的想法所以我將來我還是會持續的召開一些類似的公聽會那就一些法治的部分我們會繼續的推動那5月27號在立法院這邊有一個研討會跟記者會就是在討論司法爭議的部分那我們也希望說各位委員立法委員有時間的話能夠一起去參與去聲援"},{"start":19176.96,"end":19184.599,"text":"就是最後還是希望啦 我覺得正義是一件很重要的事情但是正義是需要我們挺身而出來支持它好 那"},{"start":19187.329,"end":19214.758,"text":"好那所有的專家學者還有根據發言的委員都已經發言完畢那接著機關代表發言請就所送書面資料以外的部分做補充說明那除了請法務部司法院衛福部的機關代表進行說明之外我們會在待會還會再詢問其餘的列席機關有沒有需要做補充說明好我們現在開始進行發言發言時間5分鐘我們先麻煩"},{"start":19215.538,"end":19233.593,"text":"先請法務部政務次長徐次長進行發言吳釗偉 各位縣進 大家午安"},{"start":19238.623,"end":19260.719,"text":"我想我擔任檢察官已經有三十幾年了今天在這裡聽到聶桐的案子跟戈侯的案子其實只是讓我回想到以前我所偵辦的案件歷歷在目所以那種痛苦我不需要你們提醒我我都知道這種案子的發生是讓人家痛心的"},{"start":19262.116,"end":19283.561,"text":"我們也很無助在檢察官的立場我們只能就已經發生的事實窮盡我們所有的力量收集任何可以我們使用的證據來為死者申冤這是我們檢察官的立場但是有時候會礙於很多客觀的條件我們的能力也會有一些侷限"},{"start":19284.784,"end":19312.898,"text":"不過法務部是國家的法務部門我們如何防止這些被害人有一些被害的事件再次發生或者是惡孽的事件發生我們在法制面我們一定要努力我們要甚至於要跨部會的來合作要讓我們的所有的制度更健全不要再讓憾事發生我想今天聽了這麼多的一些專家學者還有我們"},{"start":19313.638,"end":19339.601,"text":"被害人家屬的意見我想我們還是有幾點要說明第一個就是故意凌虐殺害兒童以目前的法律他就是可以判死刑剛才有很多學者都已經講到這一點這是刑法第271條就已經規定得很清楚在根據兒少權力保障法112條第一項他本來就可以加重刑刑所以這個部分"},{"start":19341.162,"end":19369.077,"text":"我是想再強調就是說這個部分本來就可以判死刑現在我們現在是出現了另外一個問題叫做凌虐兒童致死不是應該是對跟前面我講的凌虐殺害兒童是不一樣的概念所以剛才學者已經講過了這是一個凌虐的行為加上一個加重結果的發生這是不一樣的概念那我想"},{"start":19370.037,"end":19394.828,"text":"台北這一件凱凱這個案子我相信北檢的檢察官也是窮盡他所有的能力想要找出這一個被告他寧願殺害凱凱的施政但是所有辦過這類似的案子的人都知道證據非常難取得所以他們才會選擇用寧願致死來起訴這是我的推測"},{"start":19398.309,"end":19403.755,"text":"我想這是無奈的但是我們可以繼續努力"},{"start":19405.287,"end":19430.536,"text":"我在這裡先第一點說明第二個就是有關於大家提到的林業致死要在刑法第286條第三項到底要不要加入死刑這個問題在場的學者也表示了非常完整的意見我想這一個部分本部非常的重視我們會收集我們實務的見解跟外國的立法例我們會通盤檢討"},{"start":19431.616,"end":19453.744,"text":"那剛才我也跟抓委報告,我們三個月之內,我們會把相關的法案呢,我們就會報到刑事院去我們來做一個法制面的努力那第三點就是有關於,到底這一個無期徒刑,虐頭無期徒刑,是不是把它列為不得假製"},{"start":19455.205,"end":19484.785,"text":"目前我們送到行政院的部分呢是對於重大暴力犯罪行為呢我們是認為我們要列為就是不得假釋是要列在刑法第77條裡面也就是說如果是殺人或是殺人未遂而被判10年以上有刑徒刑的話會列入不得假釋的範圍但是這個還在討論不過我們這個是屬於通案性的適用並不是針對特定的犯罪罪名"},{"start":19485.965,"end":19506.612,"text":"適用 也就是說對於聶桐這個案子就是屬於特定犯罪那這一個部分的話我們不是就排除了而是對於這一個部分我們也會收集今天以及將來更多的學者的意見我們是併案就送到行政院來一併做來討論是不是把這一個部分也納進去不過我們當然也會擔心"},{"start":19509.213,"end":19533.785,"text":"致死的這個部分有很多的罪名會不會有更多的團體要把他推進來這個我們當然都會考慮在內不過這個部分我們會一併來討論至於我們有關於這個被害人的訴訟參與權我們書面資料已經有提到我們是贊成就是仿照德國刑事訴訟法的規定有讓被害人可以有"},{"start":19534.685,"end":19561.976,"text":"申請調查證據還有獨立抗告上訴的相關的權利我想保護部對於保護被害人或者是防止額內事件再發生在法制面我們一定會盡我們所有的努力來讓我們這個兒童呢會有一個更好的環境我想我們已經在很多方面我們都盡力了我們也對所有的被害人被害人的家屬"},{"start":19562.876,"end":19582.407,"text":"也表示遺憾我們非常非常的能夠體諒各位的受害的心情謝謝好 謝謝次長那下一位我們請衛福部保護司司長進行報告"},{"start":19593.983,"end":19622.586,"text":"首先代表衛福部向召委以及在座今天在座的各部會的長官還有今天參與這個公聽會的幾位目前還在現場的代表感到十二萬分的謝意其實凱凱事件一發生的時候後續不管是我們的民眾的召集上凱道這些第一時間我們大概都掌握到"},{"start":19623.726,"end":19638.137,"text":"幾位發言人也好召集人也好的一些意見我們都有做了相當周延的一個訴求的一個回應包括他今天有特別提到的這個要成立一個這個部會層級的這個專責單位還有正式的公務人員還有甚至還有參考瑞典的這個所謂的訪視訪員助理訪視員等等"},{"start":19652.406,"end":19664.313,"text":"以及專責的這個額保醫師這些制度我們看了都會非常非常的感動也就是今天我們的民眾都是站在第一線而且非常的接地氣也反映到目前食物界的需求"},{"start":19668.135,"end":19691.962,"text":"那這些內容我們都一一的都記錄下來那今天這個代表發言人有特別提到說希望能夠有一個快速回應坦白講我們上個禮拜基本上已經把這個專責額保的專責單位這樣的一個規劃有已經跟行政院院長有做了一些要去做一些面報院長也很關心本來有安排時間"},{"start":19693.162,"end":19710.049,"text":"後來剛好有一個重大事故發生之後那個時間就調了那我相信後續應該很快速的院也會再找衛福部再做一些討論其實目前是已經進到一個相當成熟那另外今天的會議上有提到這個司法訴訟的裡面"},{"start":19711.77,"end":19739.008,"text":"特別是兒少參與的這件事情那在性侵害犯罪防治法的確它有所謂的兒童司法詢問員那過去我們在推這個工作的時候也有外界有希望能夠在民事刑事以及少事法部分兒少的參與那可以用這個司法詢問員這樣的一個制度推廣如果這個部分是被接受那可能也可以修在兒權法因為兒權法下個會期應該也會進到"},{"start":19742.97,"end":19756.834,"text":"這個大院來那如果有必要的話也可以在這個兒圈法裡頭把它加進去那以上是我們今天聽到這些我們立即做的一些回應那我再次說明今天部長還有我們的業務指導的上"},{"start":19760.315,"end":19784.17,"text":"目前都去WHA參加市委的一個活動那今天院裡頭也有這個院長的一個召開會議所以我們另外兩位次長也都在會議上那並不是不重視這一項業務而是由直接負責俄少保的司那由我來代替部裡頭把這一件蒐集之後在第一時間也反映給我們的長官剛才我在聽各位的一個報告的時候"},{"start":19789.033,"end":19808.428,"text":"那把相關的意見就立刻上傳到我們的這個群組裡頭那也反映大家的意見都非常的這個中肯那我們能夠調整在這個社會相關社會福利的相關法規部分我們都會立刻來做以上代表衛福部的回應 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請司法院刑事廳廳長李廳長報告"},{"start":19817.045,"end":19842.661,"text":"有家事聽嗎 那麻煩聽長 謝謝主席 趙偉 還有在座的先進以及所有各單位的長官 大家午安今天"},{"start":19843.935,"end":19868.394,"text":"心情非常沉痛我們少年法庭的法官確實需要再多一些的愛心跟更多的教育訓練至於法制面部分剛剛我聽完一些先進的說明目前就少事法"},{"start":19869.875,"end":19886.446,"text":"少年保護事件那麼依照大法官的解釋4至805號做一個修正那麼在這個少事法36條之一就加強了這個被害人"},{"start":19887.827,"end":19911.216,"text":"這個程序的一個主體權那麼也就是說他道場權、陳述權、知悉權、陪伴同權都入法定了明定但這操作上需要像主席召委所說的要多加強實務法官的教育訓練才能操作到讓被害人"},{"start":19913.778,"end":19926.075,"text":"到法庭來行使各方面受到非常溫暖的對待跟陪伴環境上也要做一個友善的作為剛剛聽了楊媽媽的說明我都流下淚來"},{"start":19929.58,"end":19952.056,"text":"我覺得現在我們一定要把這些所有可能改進的地方精進的地方對被害人的傷痛一定要全力以赴的加強至於少年刑事案件在上一次102年依照大法官4-805號的解釋修改的65條第二項"},{"start":19957.979,"end":19975.164,"text":"雖然擴大了少年刑事案件被害人得委任律師為代理人那麼得刑事相關的權利以外但是呢 明定不准用刑事訴訟法的被害人參加"},{"start":19976.044,"end":20000.477,"text":"那這一部分經過這一次戈景岸重大事件的反省以後我們也收集了所有全國的意見以及今天也有很多意見以及各國的比較法的意見試圖思考在重罪以及被害人的平衡權的一個保障上是不是還有再修法的必要我們會非常的重視來進行評估"},{"start":20004.159,"end":20020.528,"text":"那麼這是邵氏法的部分那第二部分就是我想家世庭的法官不能漏接任何一位這個受害的兒童不管他是就是一般的壽內"},{"start":20021.869,"end":20046.157,"text":"那麼要安置或者是售內通報進來要發警保令、暫保令、通保令我們這個時候要跟所有保護網絡合作不能漏接任何一個兒童繼續讓他走向痛苦的深淵最後變成今天我們在討論的如何加重刑罰但這個時候他已經死亡了"},{"start":20046.937,"end":20057.645,"text":"我相信我們所有的家事法官都不願意見到所以我們現在開了很多這類的課程剛剛說的IEP等等在正式開啟動這樣讓家事法官從這個ASA福權法這樣的一個"},{"start":20064.87,"end":20079.83,"text":"受虐或者疏於教養或疏於保護我們的保護單位送進來的這種申請安置我們就要啟動那剛才大家都有提到一個說這麼小的兒童他沒有辦法陳述意見"},{"start":20080.771,"end":20104.173,"text":"他更不可能把他的受害經過來法庭或在警政或社政單位呈現他受害的證據所以我們家事的部分已經有一個立法的設計叫程序監理人在國外叫做兒童的律師叫代理人那其實這樣的專家他是具備三個專業法律專業"},{"start":20106.375,"end":20127.46,"text":"兒童心理專頁 社工的支援社會整個專頁如果剛剛有很多的共識能倡導這樣我們非常樂於見到所以我們一直在把新進的家事法官做教育訓練你看到有兒童的案子在裡面不管離婚的 不管是家暴的 不管是安置的或各類的"},{"start":20128.32,"end":20151.132,"text":"一定要啟動這個專家來協助那剛剛有講到這個司法協議員是在最早啟動在性侵害的部分那這個我們樂於把這些法令徹底執行跟修法最後我要補充報告謝謝剛剛那個保護師的張師長有跟我交換意見那我覺得這個對我們來講是一個非常重要的議題"},{"start":20152.092,"end":20168.488,"text":"性侵害犯罪防治法他剛剛告訴我也就是說剛剛楊媽媽有提到我們在保護所謂的被害兒童我們在肇事法因為基於少年"},{"start":20170.009,"end":20187.501,"text":"自我的健全成長不要讓他留下這個所謂的司法的這種處罰的一個印記以至於造成他在健全成長上有阻礙但是我們被害人要平衡所以在我們的信心範圍犯罪防治法就明定說"},{"start":20188.522,"end":20202.552,"text":"如果在性侵害的部分被害人死亡了這當然是不能報導不能揭露但是有一個例外在48條第三項他說性侵害這麼重大的案子被害人死亡了這不能報導報導的話主管機關要處罰"},{"start":20205.174,"end":20225.876,"text":"可是主管機關可以裁量在四個條件下第一為了維護治安安定社會人心澄清誤解視聽尤其防止危險擴大還有其他社會重大公益可以認為如果有報導有揭露不必處罰我想我們少年實踐處理法會"},{"start":20227.779,"end":20231.167,"text":"參佐這個來看適當的平衡跟修法 以上謝謝"},{"start":20237.076,"end":20266.179,"text":"OK 那我就報告一下113年的10月我們就正式經過司法院的院會早就通過 我們就函送行政院那行政院也因此請我們跟各界還有一些專家到行政院由政委召開這樣的一個會議然後總共召開了三次"},{"start":20266.9,"end":20286.576,"text":"那麼從10月11、12都有召開那到了1月的時候我們文字修正以及整合都完畢那當然一定是有不同意見尤其行政院邀請了包括衛福部包括警政署包括法務部等都有不同的修法意見包括剛剛所說的"},{"start":20288.257,"end":20314.356,"text":"在有條件下的不塗銷少年前案這個叫做保持善良品性的少年我們要讓他復歸社會對不對不保持善良品性的我們不應該這樣一律的把他銷案前案但這個各界還是有很多意見條件有很多意見那我們希望說他兩岸併成進來但是從今年的1月我們一直協商到現在5月"},{"start":20315.997,"end":20328.264,"text":"還沒有經過行政院的院會我沒有在指責的意思喔 各位請不要誤會的報導喔因為行政院一定有他的立場那像 等一下我跟李廳長立即要趕回我們3點要召開院會就是行政院喊請我們會選的我們就是要兩岸併成"},{"start":20335.087,"end":20352.16,"text":"以上所以我回去我希望我一個月內能解決這一個案可以送入院會然後馬上會選進入立法院請各位大委員指導我們來將這個邵氏法修得更完整保護得更周到以上 謝謝"},{"start":20354.491,"end":20378.32,"text":"謝謝 那算是那個楊媽媽跟我們討論 幫助討論其實我們後來有把一些資料回饋給這個邵家的廳長那也很謝謝廳長後來在法官的辦案手冊上面有修正有關那個未成年證人的保護方面這塊真的是非常謝謝廳長那我個人我是覺得我們花太多 政治人物跟"},{"start":20378.82,"end":20394.868,"text":"大法官還有國人花太多時間在說要實質廢死或是反對一個我們提的法官以自決公投的這個事情我們花太多力氣在這裡了我們其實應該回饋把一些力氣花在怎麼保障"},{"start":20396.107,"end":20418.223,"text":"被害人家屬多關懷他們或是讓下一次的悲劇不要再發生我想我們應該把力氣花在這裡啦因為在座很多司法官嘛那我想說我過往我自己開庭的經驗因為開庭時間很短那我們也重視的是構成要件所以我永遠都只聽到被害人是怎麼死的我從來沒有思考過被害人怎麼活"},{"start":20419.284,"end":20438.917,"text":"所以當我這段時間我跟家屬接觸我們近距離接觸之後他們花最多時間是告訴我這個人曾經是怎麼活就我以前只在乎他怎麼死我從來忘記了他怎麼活所以當我更知道這個被害者在被殺死之前他怎麼活的時候以及他的家屬在"},{"start":20440.47,"end":20462.882,"text":"刑案發生之後他們家族的人生是變成怎麼活的時候我真的覺得你要我去原諒一個這種兇手其實我變得更沒有辦法這是我在跟各位司法官報告的點就是在這邊我們花太多時間只在乎他怎麼死卻忘了去思考這些人以前怎麼活以及他的家族在事後是怎麼活"},{"start":20463.522,"end":20480.408,"text":"我想說這個公平正義還是我一直追求的那接下來我們可能還會有很多類似公聽會有一些活動還是要為被害人家族發聲好謝謝那請問一下其他的列席機關代表有沒有需要補充說明的好"},{"start":20483.695,"end":20513.215,"text":"好那沒有的話那今天的公聽會發言就到此告一個段落那感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向提供諸多寶貴的意見那今天各位的發言內容還有書面意見還有委員審發會所提的書面資料我們都會列入記錄刊登公報而且會做成公報的公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員還有本日出席的列席人員參考那本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家散會"},{"start":20513.695,"end":20513.746,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"16698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16698","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbcd64100527991d8c9b5fa2f296a93534a12e9ca99aa835c0dcfc68a90f380a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等39案。\n二、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n三、繼續審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員李坤城等16人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「個人資料保護法第十二條、第二十七條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（第六案及第七案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查。））","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-22T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T12:50:00+08:00","duration":15601,"影片長度":"04:20:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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欢迎订阅"},{"start":1206.561,"end":1207.312,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1782.842,"end":1785.06,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1819.807,"end":1825.611,"text":"來要開會囉要開會囉"},{"start":1837.122,"end":1853.594,"text":"來請組密報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員13人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄及報告事項第二案及第三案預算解凍共計29案請宣讀"},{"start":1856.256,"end":1870.463,"text":"第11屆第三會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議事錄時間114年5月19日星期一九十四分至十二十二十二分地點紅龍101會議室初學人林大亂等14人列席委員郭玉琴等9人列席人員農業部部長陳俊記"},{"start":1873.188,"end":1893.479,"text":"公平交易委員會大理主任委員陳志明等主席蔡昭舉委員予以報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定 確定二 處理114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等18案一 農業部函位114年度中央政府總預算決議減重該部一般事務費預算凍結200萬元書面報告案二 減重農業部一般行政預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案三 減重農業部農業管理預算凍結2億元書面報告案四"},{"start":1902.103,"end":1913.369,"text":"減送農業部社會保險業務預算凍結100萬元輸命報告案5減送農業部農民服務業務預算凍結100萬元輸命報告案6減送林業及自然保育署及所屬違犯費預算凍結200萬元輸命報告案7減送林業及自然保育署及所屬林業發展預算凍結2000萬元輸命報告案8減送"},{"start":1921.873,"end":1940.946,"text":"農村發展及水土保持署 水土保持發展預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案9 減送茶及飲料作物改良廠 農場南遷之環評等先期規劃預算凍結500萬元書面報告案10 減送漁業署及所屬漁業科技研究發展預算凍結300萬元書面報告案11 減送漁業署及所屬漁業管理預算凍結500萬元書面報告案12 減送漁業署及所屬漁業發展"},{"start":1946.71,"end":1970.5,"text":"預算凍結一千萬元輸入報告案 十三 減送動植物防疫檢疫署及所署動植物防疫檢疫管理預算凍結五百萬元輸入報告案 十四減送農業金融署農業金融機構管理預算凍結兩百萬元輸入報告案 十五減送農糧署農糧管理預算凍結三千萬元輸入報告案 十六減送農田水利署農田水利發展預算凍結五百萬元輸入報告案 十七減送農業部綜合規劃預算"},{"start":1972.782,"end":1992.28,"text":"動結1000萬元書面報告案18 減送農業部業務費預算動結450萬元書面報告案決定第1案至第18案書面報告均已送達預算均得以動之擬拒報告提報院會3 處理2014年度中央政府總預算有關公民交易委員會主管預算動結案等6案1 公民交易委員會函"},{"start":1993.622,"end":2006.615,"text":"為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送第二幕第三節法務及行政救濟業務預算凍結50萬元書面報告案二減送第二幕第四節綜合規劃及宣導業務預算凍結50萬元書面報告案三減送資訊業務及經濟發展產業資料管理預算凍結80萬元書面報告案四減送第二幕第一節"},{"start":2013.602,"end":2042.13,"text":"公平交易業務限制競爭行為調查處理預算凍結100萬元書面報告案5.減充第二幕第二節不公平競爭行為調查處理及多層次傳銷管理預算凍結50萬元書面報告案6.減充第二幕第五節針對擬定及國際交易業務預算凍結100萬元書面報告案決定第一案至第六案書面報告經與送達預算均得以動之理據報告提報院會討論事項一審查114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管"},{"start":2043.131,"end":2044.64,"text":"預算凍結案等12案1 農業部"},{"start":2046.34,"end":2075.478,"text":"函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減重該部業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案談判事項合併詢答農業部部長陳俊濟及公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明報告後委員林大化等16人提出質詢均由農業部部長陳俊濟及公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明等積極答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林玉玲林大化及邱志偉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2076.278,"end":2094.227,"text":"書面質詢和問及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內書面答覆並複製本位二 農業部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部農業科技研究發展預算凍結2000萬元專案報告案三 減送農業部建置我國寵物管理及產業健全發展計畫預算凍結10%書面報告案四 減送農業部補助農業特"},{"start":2100.779,"end":2121.853,"text":"特别收入基金预算冻结5亿元专案报告案5.减送农业部农民保险业务预算冻结1000万元专案报告案6.减送林业及自然保育署及所属业务费预算冻结30%专案报告案7.减送农村发展及水土保质署业务费预算冻结10%专案报告案8.减送渔业署及所属业务费预算冻结30%专案报告案"},{"start":2122.734,"end":2127.818,"text":"9.減送動植物防疫檢疫署及所署 優惠預算凍結30%中案報告案10."},{"start":2127.818,"end":2131.761,"text":"減送農糧署及所署 優惠預算凍結30%中案報告案11."},{"start":2131.761,"end":2135.684,"text":"減送農田水利署 優惠預算凍結30%中案報告案12."},{"start":2135.684,"end":2144.471,"text":"減送農田水利署 農田水利快遇整合永續發展計劃預算凍結10%中案報告案決議第一案至第十二案均同意動之 拟據報告提報院會"},{"start":2145.932,"end":2161.097,"text":"2.檢查114年度中央政府總預算有關公平教育委員會主管預算凍結案等二案依公平教育委員會函為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢証業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案2.檢証第二幕第一節第1、3級產業獨佔結合及聯合行為之調查處理預算凍結100萬元專案報告案決議第一案及第二案均同意動之擬拘報告提報院會散會報告事項"},{"start":2176.345,"end":2185.502,"text":"二處理114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等事務案一經濟部罕為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢証"},{"start":2187.839,"end":2195.287,"text":"該部水電費預算凍結200萬元書面報告案二檢送產業技術師政策研究與推動計劃預算凍結5%書面報告案三檢送投資促進師延攬外國專業人才預算凍結200萬元書面報告案四檢送資訊處數位應用與資安韌性預算凍結60萬元書面報告案五檢送"},{"start":2209.728,"end":2222.154,"text":"經濟部一般行政預算凍結100萬元書面報告案6.檢送投資促進師促進投資預算凍結500萬元書面報告案7.檢送產業技術師研發測試場域整建計作業預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案8.檢送產業發展署工業技術升級輔導預算凍結3000萬元書面報告案9.檢送產業發展署"},{"start":2244.729,"end":2263.986,"text":"9.減送產業發展署公益管理預算凍結100萬人書面報告案10.減送標準檢驗局及所屬標準檢驗及度證管理預算凍結100萬人書面報告案11.減送資格財產局推動保護資格財產權預算凍結500萬人書面報告案12.減送水利署及所屬水利建設及保育管理預算凍結500萬人書面報告案13."},{"start":2266.508,"end":2294.781,"text":"减送商业发展署促进商业科技发展预算冻结200万元书面报告案14减送能源署能源规划与国际交流预算冻结100万元书面报告案15减送智慧财产局智慧财产权科技发展预算冻结2000万元书面报告案3处理114年度中央政府总预算有关国家发展委员会及所属主管预算冻结案等14案1国家发展委员会含为114年度中央政府总预算决议减送水电费预算冻结100万元书面报告案2"},{"start":2296.162,"end":2304.172,"text":"減送第二幕規劃及推動國家發展計畫綜合業務預算凍結50萬元書面報告案減送第三幕研擬經濟政策協調推動財經措施預算凍結100萬元書面報告案減送第四幕促進社會發展及計畫審議協調預算凍結60萬元書面報告案"},{"start":2315.826,"end":2336.467,"text":"減送第四目建制以資料科學為基礎之社會政策治理機制計畫預算凍結200萬元書面報告案6減送第五目促進產業發展預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案7減送第六目促進人力資源發展預算凍結500萬元書面報告案8減送第七目健全國土規劃及經營管理預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案9"},{"start":2338.309,"end":2362.682,"text":"減送第7目地方創生之協調推動預算凍結20%書面報告案10.減送第7目永續發展計畫之協調推動預算凍結200萬元書面報告案11.減送第8目績效管理預算凍結100萬元書面報告案12.減送檔案管理局第2目檔案管理應用預算凍結100萬元書面報告案13.減送檔案管理局第4目國家記憶深化推廣預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案"},{"start":2365.083,"end":2379.868,"text":"14 減重第6目 研議與協調推動人力資源相關政策及計畫預算凍結150萬元書面報告案宣讀完畢好那我們就來處理報告事項請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2384.348,"end":2409.985,"text":"沒有齁好那依職務確定那第二個報告事項第二案及第三案分別為經濟部及所屬預算解凍案第一案至第十五案及國家發展委員會預算解凍案第一案至第十四案當時的決議是提出書面報告後使得動之現在書面報告已經送達預算得與動之請問各位委員有無異議"},{"start":2411.286,"end":2420.062,"text":"好沒有異議的話通過那並擬據報告提報院會那我們現在剛剛有收音到嗎"},{"start":2421.926,"end":2444.371,"text":"那我再確定一次就是這個書面報告這個解凍案請問各位委員預算得以凍資有無意義沒有好沒有意義的話就通過那你去報告事項提報院會繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項第一案及第二案"},{"start":2445.766,"end":2457.878,"text":"討論事項 第一案審查114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等二次案一 經濟部罕為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部業務費預算凍結30%中央報告案二 檢送經濟部媒體政策及業務宣導費預算凍結60萬元"},{"start":2464.905,"end":2470.05,"text":"書面報告案3.檢送產業技術師科技專案預算凍結10%專案報告案4.檢送產業技術師科技專案預算凍結2億元專案報告案5.檢送經濟部建置橋外來台投資全程線上化計畫預算凍結50%專案報告案"},{"start":2483.283,"end":2491.304,"text":"6.減重經濟部業務費預算凍結28%專案報告案7.減重經濟部業務費預算凍結1000萬人專案報告案8.減重國營事業管理師國營事業管理預算凍結30億人專案報告案9.減重國營事業管理師基本行政工作維持預算凍結500萬人專案報告案10.減重國營事業管理師基本行政工作維持預算凍結15%專案調查及究責檢討報告案11."},{"start":2511.808,"end":2518.252,"text":"減送經濟部經濟部辦公廳設新建計劃預算凍結50%專案報告案12減送產業發展署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案13減送國際貿易署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案14減送標準檢驗局及所署"},{"start":2529.359,"end":2536.704,"text":"業務費預算凍結30%中央報告案15.減送智慧財產局業務費預算凍結30%中央報告案16.減送水利署及所屬業務費預算凍結10%中央報告案17.減送水利署業務費預算凍結10%中央報告案18.減送商業發展署業務費預算凍結30%中央報告案19.減送中小及輕創產業署"},{"start":2551.178,"end":2560.201,"text":"新創企業署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案20 減送產業園區管理局業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案21 減送地質調查及礦業管理中心業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案22 減送能源署業務費預算凍結50%專案報告案23 減送能源署業務費預算凍結1000萬元專案報告案24 減送能源署經濟特別收入基金預算凍結20%專案報告案"},{"start":2580.114,"end":2591.225,"text":"第二 審查114年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案一 國家發展委員會為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案二 國家發展委員會"},{"start":2597.475,"end":2604.48,"text":"減送業務費預算凍結1500萬元書面報告案減送第二幕規劃及推動國家發展計劃綜合業務預算凍結28%專案報告案減送第二幕向下規劃國家發展計劃預算凍結30%書面報告案減送第三幕財經新策略規劃研究預算凍結20%書面報告案"},{"start":2620.59,"end":2629.637,"text":"減送第四幕建構完善淨零公正轉型及區域治理推動機制預算凍結500萬元專案報告案7減送檔案管理局業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案宣讀完畢好那我們現在先請經濟部"},{"start":2642.472,"end":2664.683,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項有114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結共計24案及國家發展委員會主管預算凍結共計7案我們合併報告及詢答那我們現在先請經濟部郭智輝部長就預算解凍等24案合併報告"},{"start":2674.417,"end":2696.25,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早大院審議本部主管114年度預算所作預算凍結決議計39案本部以分別研擬書面報告送達大院本次會議列有報告事項14案以及討論事項25案以下僅就討論事項之報告內容簡要說明 進行指教"},{"start":2701.874,"end":2725.994,"text":"业务费预算冻结30%本项预算主要系办理智库研究科技专案计划管考及绩效考评国际科技合作及奖项评选推动资讯政策计划与资讯业务相关服务办理吸引桥外商来台及台商回台投资"},{"start":2726.754,"end":2744.486,"text":"协助厂商全球布局等业务以及基本行政工作维持的经费二、科技专案预算冻结10%与冻结2亿本两项预算主要系整合法人研究机构"},{"start":2745.844,"end":2766.056,"text":"產業界 學術界之研發能量推動法人業界學界科技專案計畫研發具前瞻業應用潛力之技術三 推動投資審議智慧發展建制橋外來台投資全程線上化計畫預算被統計50%"},{"start":2770.031,"end":2791.985,"text":"本項預算主要是建置便捷的線上申辦系統及具有資安防護之審議系統等以簡化業務申辦程序及全面發展橋外來台投資線上申辦審議業務是一般行政業務費預算凍結28%與一般行政基本行政工作維持業務費"},{"start":2793.226,"end":2808.893,"text":"预算冻结1000万本两项预算主要系本部基本行政工作维护所需费用以支援本部主管业务推动5.国营事业管理基本行政工作维持业务费预算冻结500万与冻结15%"},{"start":2811.107,"end":2838.682,"text":"本兩項預算主要系本部國營事業管理司基本行政工作維持所需經費以支援該司業務推動六 一般建築及設備營建工程經濟部辦公廳設興建計畫預算凍結50%本部辦公廳設限制各棟建物老舊維護費用逐年攀升亦不符合智慧及綠建築特性"},{"start":2839.582,"end":2861.891,"text":"又所屬部分單位在外租借辦公廳設需訂支付租金原有新建辦公廳設置迫切需求七媒體政策及業務宣傳費預算凍結60萬元本項預算主要是為確保民眾可透過多元管道了解國家重要經濟政策保障其相關權益"},{"start":2863.615,"end":2876.149,"text":"八 國營事業管理預算凍結30億本項預算為本部國營事業管理師統籌督導本部所屬事業之經營管理業務及基本行政工作維持等所需經費二"},{"start":2879.513,"end":2896.565,"text":"產業發展署議案業務費凍結30%本項預算主要系配合政府產業政策辦理協助產業低碳化智慧化高質化及發展半導體AI軍工等重要業務所需輔導及行政工作擴大半導體生態系與競爭優勢強化國內半導體材料與設備供應鏈"},{"start":2900.228,"end":2926.863,"text":"引领产业升级转型3.国际贸易署议案业务费预算冻结30%本项预算主要推动我国参加2025大阪世界博览会经会以办理展馆及新建工程及营运等工作目前已如期完成展馆新建并于114年4月13日开幕4.标准检验局所属议案业务费冻结30%"},{"start":2928.366,"end":2948.391,"text":"預算凍結30%本項預算主要辦理國家標準制定檢驗業務規範商品檢驗行政與管理發展再生能源檢測能量度量衡管理及檢定以推動商品安全業務及計量管理制度確保產業良性發展及維護消費者權益"},{"start":2952.031,"end":2979.597,"text":"智慧財產局兩岸業務費凍結30%本項預算主要系提升專利審查效能辦理專利商標及著作權保護完善數位環境之建構與營運並提供創新發明推廣服務協助企業優化佈局策略綿合優秀人才以促進產業創新及提升制裁保護能量二"},{"start":2981.027,"end":2996.973,"text":"智慧財產權科技發展制預算凍結2000萬元本項預算主要系為建置完善的檢索及審查資訊系統以確保專利與商標檢索及審查之效能提供更健全之智慧財產權保護數位環境"},{"start":3002.01,"end":3018.225,"text":"6.水利署所屬兩岸業務費預算凍結10%本項預算主要辦理強化區域供水安全與穩定降低淹水機率提高防洪韌性及完備智慧防災應變機制等水利建設計畫之行政經費"},{"start":3020.066,"end":3039.45,"text":"二水資源開發局維護自來水工程業務費預算凍結10%本項預算主要系自來水工程管理業務所需費用以資源推動偏遠地區供水改善等工程第七商業發展署一案業務費凍結30%本項預算主要系協助商業服務業發展"},{"start":3045.231,"end":3068.449,"text":"以穩定經營並協助企業提高獲利能力創造額外的附加價值強化員工生產力促使員工薪資成長第八中小及新創企業署一案業務費凍結30%本項預算主要是以協助我國中小微企業數位轉型淨零轉型及部件通路以強化中小微企業的經營韌性就"},{"start":3071.724,"end":3087.91,"text":"产业园区管理局所属一案业务费预算冻结30%本项预算主要是维持园区基本运作园区开发及管理及营造优质营运环境以促进产业及经济发展"},{"start":3089.66,"end":3108.804,"text":"10 地質調查及礦業中心一案 業務費預算凍結30%本項預算主要是辦理地質及礦業科技發展 地質調查及礦業管理業務所需11 能源署三案 業務費預算凍結50%本項預算主要是辦理高雄海洋科技產業創新園區沙崙智慧綠能科技廠維運培訓"},{"start":3116.277,"end":3130.317,"text":"离岸风电人才国际能源双边合作电价及费率审议行政作业基本行政工作与资讯管理等业务二能源科技计划再生能源环境健康"},{"start":3131.348,"end":3147.808,"text":"建構業務費預算凍結1000萬元本項預算主要是辦理高雄海洋科技產業創新專業營運沙崙智慧綠能科技城委託專業服務等案等計畫提供各場域的運維"},{"start":3149.835,"end":3176.03,"text":"协助链接各计划研发成果打造绿能产业高质化推动平台及培训离岸风电各项人才等三非营业特种基金经济特别收入基金预算冻结20%本项预算主要办理住宅家电效率升级计划家户屋顶设置太阳光电加速计划等"},{"start":3176.75,"end":3197.017,"text":"用於輔助住宅、汰換老舊家電推動設置加護屋頂太陽光電設備以加速推動住宅部門節能減碳及提升太陽光電設置普及率由於本部各項施政計畫預算均系配合國家發展編列"},{"start":3200.138,"end":3226.445,"text":"業務實際需求 懇請各位委員會與支持並同意相關經費之動之必利各項業務推動 以上報告祝各位委員生理健康 處事順利好謝謝我們郭部長的報告那我們下一位請國家發展委員會高仙貴副主任委員就預算解凍等七案合併報告那請報告"},{"start":3231.734,"end":3258.876,"text":"主席各位委員親近 大家好大院審查本會及所屬檔案局的114年預算的解凍案 總共有21案我們已經把研擬的報告送到大院我們緊究討論的四項的七項其中有兩項是合併為一幕來說明第一個是有關大院關切我國進行推動進展以及部分永續目標"},{"start":3260.037,"end":3282.768,"text":"的進程然後凍結我們的業務費百分之三十我們簡要說明事實上我們已經在一百一四年一月提出了新的台灣的國家制定減碳的目標然後將二零三零年的目標建為二十八加減二比上次的二十四加減一來得更有企圖心而且擬定了台灣總體減碳行動計畫那務實達成二零五年的進營目標"},{"start":3288.311,"end":3301.424,"text":"那其實我們本會114年編列的業務費是為了推動國家發展的及機關基本的運作所需那所以這些執行情況良好所以恳請這個"},{"start":3303.866,"end":3324.646,"text":"大院的進行解凍那第二呢是有關大院關切我們國發基金投資聯合再生的相關事宜那事實上國發基金投資聯合再生以後除了要求公司定期的提供財務報告並控告董事會的運作強化公司治理外那另有關"},{"start":3326.507,"end":3353.786,"text":"經濟部的光電標案還有國防部的光電標注案我們已經函請主管機關釐清公司作為是否有符合契約的規定那至於本會的114年一般行政跟基本行政工作的業務會是為了維持本會基本運作所需都為本會共用的共同性的經費所以卻有必要"},{"start":3355.523,"end":3383.818,"text":"那第三是有關於大院決議請本會因應財化法就應移轉回歸地方自治的市權項目進行說明那事實上本會的指導主要是做國家發展之規劃協調審議跟資源分配等業務沒有涉及地方的自治項目那另有關遣隨市權移轉的原則中央承接的省府業務應該回歸各地方政府辦理一案"},{"start":3384.298,"end":3411.755,"text":"那本會承接的中央的青春的核心的業務也未涉及地方的相關的事務那第四呢是有關於呢大院決議呢對本會有關於壯世代我們擔任壯世代的主管機關應積極協調目的事業主管機關來解決高齡的問題那事實上衛福部已經修正高齡社會的白筆書也提出了因應高齡社會"},{"start":3413.052,"end":3437.437,"text":"的對策方案 這些方案的內容可由各相關部會積極推動中 那我們也請這個大院可以就我們重協的案件 重協的預算進行解凍那第五是有關於大院關切我們編業的促進社會發展及計畫裡面的公正轉型的進程 那本會作為"},{"start":3438.777,"end":3462.564,"text":"推動進行公正轉型的業務我們的專責單位其實我們已經成立了跨部會推動小組跟公正轉型委員會等機制協調各部會解決政策推動的課題那112年起我們已經召開五次會議我們規劃安排在114年7月11月分別再召開第六跟第四會議而且我們已經辦理了43場的公眾協商那"},{"start":3465.768,"end":3480.76,"text":"其實面臨行政院改組我們已經依照國家希望工程的經營轉型的願景我們已經初步規劃了國家公正轉型的架構我們預計在今年年底會提出公正轉型的行動計畫跟成果報告"},{"start":3481.901,"end":3501.196,"text":"第六有關大院關切檔案局部分計畫跟工程效率的事宜我們的國家檔案館其實已經在113年12月30日完工然後在114年2月7號取得使用執照在今年第四季會啟用其實檔案局預算的"},{"start":3502.444,"end":3528.72,"text":"編列的業務費呢它主要是推動國家檔案館的整備還有國家檔案徵集跟開放的事宜那相關的預算金何時編列卻有其必要那以上說明呢敬請各位委員先進呢支持那有關解凍案部分呢懇請同意解凍然後碧麗本會及所屬的檔案局相關的施政業務可以順利的推動以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3533.223,"end":3557.174,"text":"好謝謝我們高副主委那我們現在就討論事項合併詢答分開處理委員執行權原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘非本會委員3分鐘上午10點截止發言登記那我們現在先請登記第一位邱益穎委員發言"},{"start":3568.617,"end":3570.342,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下這個國發會來請國發會副主委"},{"start":3576.751,"end":3592.315,"text":"副主委早副主委這個本來我今天是想要問一下你們主委的這前兩天總統在520的就職週年的記者會上面宣布了一個新的重大政策就是未來台灣要成立主權基金由國發會來統籌設計這個將來要作為整合政府跟民間資金的國家及產業投資平台"},{"start":3599.858,"end":3615.679,"text":"這是一個相當重大的政治經濟投資的這樣的一個宣布副主委我想知道一下國發會在這個部分參與的程度到哪裡我們來先看一下其實"},{"start":3617.841,"end":3640.464,"text":"主權基金已經不是一個新的概念很多的國家都在做最著名的應該就是新加坡的淡馬錫所以我們把它稍微整理了一下新加坡、南韓、挪威、沙烏地、阿拉伯、中國甚至美國現在也開始在推動所謂的主權基金那台灣的外匯存底是高達5828億美元這是全球第四"},{"start":3641.707,"end":3659.506,"text":"照理講我們其實應該是非常有這樣的能力跟機會去成立這樣的一個主權基金那未來在賴總統的這個宣誓之後我比較想知道一下國發會在這一件事情上面到目前為止你們的規劃程度是到哪裡"},{"start":3660.467,"end":3686.923,"text":"主權基金跟我們現有的國發基金跟產創會不會有互相焊隔之處要怎麼樣的區分我先簡單請教您這幾個問題我想謝謝委員的詢問我想我第一個要釐清的就是說其實總統有宣誓要成立主權基金那可是那個主權基金的主責單位現在我們還是要等待行政院"},{"start":3687.783,"end":3700.59,"text":"商議後再決定誰會是主責的單位所以但這個應該會找你們國發會有做先期的討論對不對對那我要再說明一下就是說當然如果是行政院指定是我們我們當然也責無旁貸"},{"start":3702.731,"end":3721.567,"text":"那我们只能跟委员报告说的确我们在主权基金我们在陈前院长的时候因为有立委提到我们也曾经召开过相关的部会召开过两次的会议对我知道这个过去上一届的吴新颖委员曾经提过这个概念而且她也非常的积极的在推动所有的主权基金"},{"start":3721.707,"end":3746.993,"text":"那我们的确在那两次会议里面有针对这个资金的来源设立的目的等等进行的讨论可是因为那两次的里面其实有很多的部分其实还没有一致的共识你是说你们最近的讨论里头吗应该是说所以在整个主权基金的设置两年前的那个你说的是两年前那最近的讨论我比较想要知道就是说"},{"start":3747.893,"end":3764.21,"text":"我們未來的這個所謂的主權基金的設立我們是不是會參考新加坡的模式還是會參考所謂的這個南韓的模式或者是以什麼樣的模式去進行那對於現有的國發基金"},{"start":3765.39,"end":3786.292,"text":"的投資方式跟處理模式主權基金跟國發基金未來你們要怎麼樣做一些區分那其實主權基金的設置其實我們先知道幾個課題第一個就是就讀這個委員所說的他的設立的目的在哪裡那目前大概是有一些是財務型的就是他是否"},{"start":3787.072,"end":3805.76,"text":"要讓國家財富可以提升的增加的一種是策略型的完全是策略性的投資要強化整個國家的這個產業的競爭力等等的那有的有些是財務跟策略型mix的也有那每個國家會是他的政經情勢他會設立他設"},{"start":3808.021,"end":3821.593,"text":"主權基金設置的目的是要採取哪一種型態那我覺得這個也會可以值得我們討論那目前我們國發基金基本上是屬於策略型的投資我們國發基金就是要扶植產業創新轉型是因為根據產創條例如果說我們現在的國發基金是屬於比較策略型的投資的話"},{"start":3829.58,"end":3856.3,"text":"那未來的主權基金它會不會是比較偏向財富型或者是財富跟策略並進比如說我們去投資美國現在包括這個我們部長一個多禮拜前才剛從美國回來我們有很多重大的投資跟美國的這些採購啦跟美國的投資方案會不會也會在你們的主權基金裡頭去做一些相關的討論那未來整個主權基金的治理"},{"start":3858.484,"end":3880.451,"text":"應該會用什麼樣的模式基本上我想總統已經宣布了其實上應該是主權基金跟國發基金是並行的主權基金跟國發基金會是並行所以一個會比較主內一個會比較主外所謂的主內就是說國發基金大概會比較偏重於在國內的市場那主權基金會比較偏重於在國際的市場"},{"start":3883.132,"end":3895.446,"text":"會是這樣子做這樣子比較簡單的區分嗎我只能跟委員說這些這些剛剛您說的這些我們都還在討論當中就是還是要請行政院才能做定案"},{"start":3896.633,"end":3924.142,"text":"好 所以我今天其實也問不到什麼東西啦這個副主委我想這樣啦我比較想要更深入了解一下就是到目前為止政府單位在主權基金這一塊的規劃進度假如可以的話是不是可以給本席一些基本的你們現在的一些規劃進度不屬於機密的部分可以讓委員們了解的部分是不是也可以讓我了解一下好嗎 好 謝謝"},{"start":3929.206,"end":3946.594,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員 那要拜託邱委員幫我代理一下好 謝謝 我們現在請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":3975.589,"end":3978.891,"text":"來 請郭部長委員長 這個517啊 非核家電以後 非核家園以後大家都在關心 我們的電成本增加了 變貴跟變髒的問題今天我要先給你看一個畫面 來 我們先看這個 這是"},{"start":4005.859,"end":4033.289,"text":"517啊 河山場二號機停了之後19號台中深夜12點的畫面中火深夜燒煤炭 煙霧瀰漫部長看了應該也是有些擔心的這個畫面真的是非常的驚悚現在開了第一槍出來抗議的是台中企業啟動"},{"start":4035.129,"end":4054.791,"text":"盧秀燕 盧秀燕提出非常具體的事證她證明說 在飛河加鹽的前一天跟後一天就是前一天到後面一天 中火的發電量 全部都燒沒了喔中火是台灣最大的污染源 它燒沒"},{"start":4056.038,"end":4081.889,"text":"增加了50%他直接講了一共一般講有10部這個機組有一部在維修其他的9部機組火力都全開這不是只有台中人受到影響喔在附近的中華南島 嘉義 昏林整個都受到影響了我看台電還一直認為沒有問題可是呢我們看下一張"},{"start":4083.373,"end":4106.592,"text":"台中市的環保局長跟盧修緣就拿出了非常具體的證據他講說中火啊他把時間點都給你看了中火10步這個燃煤基礎9步有上限其中有8步開的都是超過9成一直持續到20號的下午下面這個話最重要請大家一起來看看"},{"start":4107.861,"end":4123.01,"text":"你看 河山廠停機前16號中火 就是台灣最大的污染源他燒 用的這個煤炭一天3.23萬噸結果17號停了以後當天就跳上來了跳到4.03萬噸的煤炭18號稍微緩了一點點19號竟然攀升到4.64萬噸這多恐怖的事情"},{"start":4137.415,"end":4163.111,"text":"一天喔 就是非核家園以後光是一個中火 一天多了1.4萬公噸的煤台中人跟整個中部地區的民眾用會發電 健康受到多大的影響好 那我們現在往南部看中部之外 南部的議員跑出來講"},{"start":4164.909,"end":4193.436,"text":"說高雄啊新達三號跟四號的燃煤基礎你明明去年許可證明已經到齊了啊在飛河佳園貨的三天你又偷偷地打開了高雄人何辜啊不只是中部的民眾用廢在發電南部也受到很大的影響我可以這樣講在民進黨推動飛河佳園之後"},{"start":4195.083,"end":4221.305,"text":"前臺灣空汙越來越嚴重這是我們現在要正視的一個很嚴重的一個問題好 接下來我要談一個也是非常嚴重的問題除了汙染增加了影響到我們人民的健康跟生命安全之外我們的電到底夠不夠呢賴清德總統第四月二十九號啊說我們的電夠啊"},{"start":4224.431,"end":4244.57,"text":"他還特別講他說全國民眾啊你可以上台電的電力即時資訊你去看一下我們的備載容量啊就是我們備用的一個電都在10%以上我們就上去看了結果發現5月4號就被打臉了"},{"start":4247.321,"end":4256.184,"text":"總統在4月29號接受財信的專訪說我們所有的電力備載容量電視過的都是10%以上不到五天不到五天就破功了那一天降到6.846.84多恐怖就從綠燈已經轉到黃燈了再下去6%以下就是橘燈"},{"start":4273.735,"end":4302.195,"text":"橘色的燈就是隨時有可能系統性的限電的我進一步給大家看一下總統的票票大家看一下這是台電的資料我幫他做一個統計這是每天的備產容量的熱量看下一張光是四月份總統票票的10%就有11次五月份到現在為止也有7次"},{"start":4303.41,"end":4331.821,"text":"在4月10號的時候 降到5.37一直沒有10%欸5.37代表什麼?已經進入了橘燈 橘燈叫做什麼?供電警戒 就是系統的限電限電的機率已經增加了再往下降 隨時就要找電了可能就要大停電了所以我剛剛一直講 一直講下來我們的污染增加了 空污增加了我們的電力"},{"start":4334.051,"end":4343.487,"text":"沒有像總統講的那麼充裕電力顯然是不夠的部長 所以在空屋跟電力上面我們是要做一些想辦法解決問題"},{"start":4348.797,"end":4377.456,"text":"可能委員說明其實整個年度我們如果從這個2016到現在所有的空污的問題台電其實是一直在做降低的動作包括剛才提到的台中的電廠南美的用電量南美的用量我們整個南美的發電量也都在降那剛才委員有提到10%其實台電對外已經一再的強調那是在日尖峰 夜尖峰它必須要超過7%所以你剛才提到所以總統叫我們隨時上去看"},{"start":4379.777,"end":4403.95,"text":"是不是而且我講的不是只有晚上喔很多尖峰時間特別是那個太陽一下山的時候老實講現在幾乎是每天傍晚只要太陽一下山那個太陽能一下子不見了我們要配個容量車快速下降馬上喔馬上6月份下季馬上就來了對不對用電高峰就來了喔"},{"start":4405.211,"end":4429.017,"text":"所以政府有責任你既然配了核電第一個空屋不要再增加因為我們廢發電影響我們健康第二個不要讓我們大停電喔電力一定是要過的總統講話已經被打臉了嘛對 數據非常清楚嘛空屋的情況台電一直都持續在降啦光是台中部分就是在降了昨天啊 傍晚你怎麼說那個時間昨天傍晚啊"},{"start":4431.606,"end":4456.831,"text":"為6點就太陽大概差不多下山後沒多久6點50分一直到7點50分昨天的傍晚這個小時啊我們備載容量差不多都只有7%就是再降下去就是已經從黃燈黃燈就是已經吃緊了啊綠燈就是總統講的綠燈就是供應充裕對不對到了10%以下就是供電已經是吃緊了"},{"start":4458.732,"end":4474.844,"text":"大部分時間在供應吃緊了到了下面就是集燈供電已經上有警戒了已經快到警戒的地方了昨天晚上有長達一個小時都只有7%是 都維持在葉建峰7%以上我給大家看一下那個空屋的統計齁"},{"start":4486.688,"end":4507.933,"text":"這個是中興院的資料過去八年啊行政院跟政府一直講我們的空汙是這樣的可是呢過去八年我們的碳排增加了多少沒有少欸還反而增加了80萬噸這多嚴重的一個問題好"},{"start":4515.492,"end":4540.661,"text":"我們請部長跟台電注意三個事情第一個 廢核517之後 我們電價 電力的成本已經變貴了不要隨便漲價從內部趕快去作為改革第二個 空氣污染變嚴重了第三個 電力的穩定度已經下降了"},{"start":4543.602,"end":4567.134,"text":"請好好面對問題幫人民解決問題不要讓人民第一個用配發電而且電會是升高的謝謝好謝謝張祺凱委員的發言好接下來我們請林黛樺委員發言好有請國發會來請國發會高副主委"},{"start":4573.005,"end":4599.356,"text":"好 班西想要來跟您討論這個生技產業它是我們策略產業5加2當中之一要去特別扶持的也期待它成為復國神山那當然我們現在正正是支持生醫產業成為兆元產業在今年2025年生測會年會我們賴總統有講了我們進入超高齡社會如何強化醫療跟科技"},{"start":4600.737,"end":4621.156,"text":"來推動生醫產業希望能夠成為半導體之後的下一座護國城山而賴總統本身就是醫生總統治國總統醫生護民所以他特別對於健康政策無論是在提高癌症篩檢率建立百億癌症新藥基金三高房子888計畫"},{"start":4623.058,"end":4639.941,"text":"或全民心理健康韌性甚至這個要大幅提高這個健保總額推動5年489億的健康台灣深耕其中我們的癌症篩檢率跟百億癌症新藥的基金就是跟精準醫療來高度的連結"},{"start":4640.882,"end":4666.772,"text":"好 那這個精準醫療對於生技產業 既然生技產業是五加二之一那到底他的這個機會跟挑戰在哪裡呢這個挑戰台灣 爬出一下台灣的生技產業從食品的化學產業一直走到生技的藥品開發一直到今天 今日的細胞治療跟精準醫療生物科技業可能會試射人的生命 所以發展新產品"},{"start":4667.492,"end":4671.095,"text":"跟藥品的時間壟長投資人期待獲利的時間也就長了而且同時也面臨法規資金人才技術的挑戰所以造成我國的生技業這個像你說的高獲利的同時卻害怕我這個失敗的高風險"},{"start":4688.63,"end":4708.134,"text":"好但是那機會在哪裡呢這個研發重點是在於從廣泛人群的暢銷藥是供應者藥商的導向現在因為基因科學的進步不同的個體在基因層面上的差別性可比被凸顯所以在精準醫療的風潮之下製藥業者已經從大規模的生產暢銷藥的模式逐漸改變為開發針對特定使用群"},{"start":4715.495,"end":4739.823,"text":"或是特定個人的個體的專用藥需求導向所以市場轉變從供應者導向到注重這個需求者導向也就是真的從我們的病人來出發了那這樣的話會有需要市場的變化需要什麼樣的這樣的專業來投入呢第一個基因和生物標記的研究第二個要加強檢測所以分子"},{"start":4742.445,"end":4752.499,"text":"檢測包括本席一直倡議的基因檢測第三基因地區第三醫院第四科技業者這四個因為市場的轉變他們不能單一的獨立運作必須緊密的結合"},{"start":4758.567,"end":4776.244,"text":"好那這樣的一個生技產業對於我病人需求者出發有什麼好處三個第一個檢驗時間變短第二個檢驗成本變低第三提供病患客製化的醫療服務什麼叫做檢驗時間變短我只要一個人體人類的一個基因定序"},{"start":4777.245,"end":4799.604,"text":"一天一個人我這樣的一個基因體的整個全身上下的定序過往要十年啊才能完成人類基因定序啊現在基因定序加上鑑別式的AI我只要一個人八小時我就可以完成了檢驗成本變低了從過去每個人次數十萬降到三到五萬甚至目前我一萬塊起跳含檢測跟"},{"start":4801.025,"end":4820.592,"text":"報告我們提供這個病患從病患的這個人體的這個基因地區當中去檢視了協助了醫生做什麼事可以從病人當中是不是有遺傳變異跟新陳代謝的關係或者識別染色體的疾病跟單基因疾病這種遺傳性或者是罕見疾病等"},{"start":4822.012,"end":4845.026,"text":"都可以來做一個更好的研判那當然也可以提供預防性的這個基因的檢測跟預防醫學的使用所以重上生技產業發展的跨領域從剛才的跨單位誰要去執行那這跨領域的專業預防醫學基因檢測人工智慧這還有後續的醫療跟藥物的匹配"},{"start":4845.686,"end":4871.831,"text":"好那國發會作為這個要輔導這樣的產業包括您現有的這個工具有什麼局限性呢生技產業屬於高風險高報酬的產業國內投資人對於這樣的投資高風險的產業他的專業知識是不足的所以傳統投資慣性是什麼還是要求他你一定要用有形資產但是生技產業他花了最多的錢就是在什麼研發"},{"start":4873.091,"end":4894.049,"text":"創新智慧財產權許可證這種的無形資產它的價值認定就困難了所以呢但是呢現在講到你的國發基金你的這個投資的工具的你剛才有講到做策略性的投資好我們就來看這個策略性的投資你相較民間的投這個創投業者我只要投資成功率20%哇這已經創投界的明星了"},{"start":4897.371,"end":4912.342,"text":"就是說我思考案件有兩個成功 上市上櫃 八個失敗哇 這已經是創投協的高手了但是國發基金是什麼 要要求每一個都要完美啊每一個投資案都不能失敗 容錯率很低啊原來期待國發經濟做我們中小企業的天使現在變成是我們國發經濟是民間創造什麼 追隨者"},{"start":4919.046,"end":4933.118,"text":"導致你國發基金現在要策略主要目標福祉5加2多組新創跟中小型的企業都會被忽略掉所以生醫產業是具備高度的專業性跟法律規範就現行的這個工具生技產業無論在補助審查藥證核發投資輔導等都被特定的學法來壟斷而面臨跨領域跨學科跨專業的新型態的產業"},{"start":4946.889,"end":4949.634,"text":"我們就缺乏了跨領域、跨專業的審查機制這就是你們的窘況對於生技產業的無形資產的價值的認定以及你們現在審查機制缺乏跨領域、跨專業"},{"start":4962.213,"end":4985.518,"text":"那現在呢既然無形資產無法成為金融擔保品好那對於中小型的生技業者面臨的融資需求金融機構是不認列無形資產的但是生技產業多數的價值存在於研發創新智慧財產許可證這種無形的價值其實政府也有做一些事情啦他就真的是建立起無形資產的建價機制"},{"start":4986.778,"end":5013.392,"text":"允許這樣的無形資產列在企業的財報上但是當這生技業者要去融資的時候不好意思那是你財報是你的事情擔保品我是不認的所以還是要求這樣的生技業者不動產價要提供不動產的價值啦擔保品成數與流通數啦在償債能力啦或應收賬款等有形價值所以至此無形價值無形資產價值就是參考而已好我幾以農業就好"},{"start":5015.533,"end":5039.645,"text":"農業生技產的生技業者農金屬很棒喔他提出了一個叫農民組織及農企業產銷經營及研發創新代管做什麼事情補貼利息所以呢如果我這個農業金庫譬如說這樣的金融機的單位他當然要承受受限風險農業金庫要求農業生技業者說還是提供不動產做抵押"},{"start":5041.346,"end":5046.327,"text":"而不接受農地產生技業者的研發專利無形資產來作為擔保可是他花最多精力 錢 時間就在研發專利所以這根本啊 繞道市場所以你這480幾億的先行希望呢 我們政府投資的部分所希望帶來的造業的產值那他這當中的民間的投資生技業者投入的時候你怎麼幫他解決問題啊 火災還是零啊所以這邊具體要求兩項"},{"start":5070.111,"end":5083.298,"text":"第一個請國發會邀集財政部經濟部農業部對於無形資產的評價交易跟稅務的認定建立起完整的保證機制請公股銀行是對應財政部信保基金對應經濟部農業金庫對應農業部的調整"},{"start":5088.241,"end":5092.283,"text":"這些單位的對無形資產的保證機制調整他們而且建立起這樣的機制之後調整各部會的作業規範將專利及無形資產給予保證以利生技產業資金融通第二個你的審查機制請國發會協調衛福經濟交通國科會等相關單位在相關的補助審查核定你們現在都採外部學者擔任審查委員"},{"start":5116.934,"end":5121.778,"text":"但是本席認為不應該集中特定的學校跟學會我現在講的這個是可以說是犯全部了第一個參照經濟部技術師Aplus的科專審查計畫針對學者專家給予案件數的限制跟淪換"},{"start":5132.105,"end":5158.35,"text":"第二個 平衡北 中 南 東等優秀學者進行遴選建立透明客觀的審查機制以遭公信您簡單回應 副主委有關於委員希望我們扮演協調的角色我想我們會召集相關部會來不過我可能要跟委員報告其實我們國發基金我們目前除了投資向台積電半導體外我們績效最為著重的就是我們早期投資的生技產業"},{"start":5159.23,"end":5171.166,"text":"目前都已經有一些回收我們還要再更精進因為要不然480期一直在幹嘛的就是要再往更前端包括無形資產的部分你們要阻力謝謝"},{"start":5185.853,"end":5210.958,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下國發會高副主委還有我們經濟部的郭部長來請部長跟高副主委首先先請一下那個高副主委一下因為賴總統在520談話當中說提到要成立主權基金的部分我想請教一下那個國發會這邊看法是怎麼樣我先簡單講一下因為那個前央行的"},{"start":5213.837,"end":5233.632,"text":"就是彭淮南那個總裁他有特別提到說他反對用外匯存底無償撥為主權基金的使用然後另外財政部跟央行他們都已經跳出來直接講說這個事情不歸他們管我想請教一下國發會對這部分的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5234.586,"end":5259.473,"text":"我想基本上總統已經宣示我們要成立主權基金那院長也有在院會裡面在那個立法院質詢的時候也明白表示我們會成立專案所以就我們國發會我們作為行政團隊的議員我們當然就是尊重總統跟那個院長的指示所以總統在做這樣的一個宣示之前的時候有沒有跟國發會這邊溝通過我覺得有跟行政院相關的單位溝通過"},{"start":5260.874,"end":5267.803,"text":"為什麼特別提到這個問題因為在113年12月13號的時候立法院曾經請國發會提出主權基金的一個規劃進度報告那麼在今年的1月15號國發會也回函了立法院你知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":5281.579,"end":5301.532,"text":"就我所知我們曾經因為前你知道這件事情嗎 你知道今年1月15號國發會有回函立法院針對國發基金的一個資料我手上這一份非常的清楚國發基金還是對於那個主權基金 對主權基金的一個回覆"},{"start":5305.441,"end":5327.594,"text":"你不知道是不是我直接跟你講在這份資料當中的時候那個國發會這邊很清楚的知道表示說他們邀集了央行主計總處財政部金管會勞動基金運用局公務員退府基金管理局共同討論得到的結論有四項"},{"start":5328.815,"end":5349.034,"text":"有四項結論第一個說國內已經有類似主權基金的機制而且操作績效良好這第一點第二點的時候強調主權基金追求報酬極大化波動風險高第三個部分提到如果需要提高外匯投資比例可以請央行研議"},{"start":5350.475,"end":5372.326,"text":"那麼第四個部分提到國發基金之中已經有類主權基金性質的台三公司正在進行全球策略的產業投資佈局所以結論的時候呢基本上國發會是不認為需要有主權基金的才四個月的時候竟然有發生這麼大的一個轉彎然後剛剛副主委所表示就是"},{"start":5373.567,"end":5401.168,"text":"我們聽不出來總統要做這樣主權基金的宣示的時候有跟國發會這邊先討論過或諮詢過國發會的意思我跟委員報告說因為這是1月15號的所以1月15號我們發函的時候我們是根據我們過去所以四個月就出現了重大變化您聽我講完就是我們有就是爭據我們之前跟各個相關部會我們也討論的"},{"start":5403.349,"end":5426.822,"text":"結論跟那個回覆這個然後我要 可以翻到那四個結論嗎第一個呢 的確 如果 因為整個國發會給立法院的報告很清楚的認為其實不太需要主權基金結果四個月的時候 你講說國發會今天找了這麼多的單位結果四個月之後的時候 總統就做了另外一個不一樣的宣告"},{"start":5427.202,"end":5451.89,"text":"那我想特別問一下部分因為在這個時間點宣告的時候很多國人其實很擔心一件事情因為我們郭部長剛陪我們前國發會的時候我們的行政院秘書長去了美國參加他們SLAC USA的部分的時候那強調要讓美國再次的偉大所以大家擔心是不是主權基金這次的時候要把台灣一些相關的一個基金去重壓美國"},{"start":5453.977,"end":5469.917,"text":"我覺得不能這樣說因為我剛才講到說我們其實主權基金有三個一個是策略性投資財務性投資或是MIX那的確我們說我們現行的有一些譬如說我們的財三啊國發啊或者是市場基金裡面也有一些"},{"start":5471.338,"end":5492.552,"text":"策略財務型投資的那種性質所以我們就會回答說我們國內也有類似的因為你要回答因為我時間有限你如果覺得要針對1月15號你們給立法院的一個主權基金的一個回報要做一個法轄彎的時候你之後再來跟我做一個很詳細的一個說明好不好那因為針對這個部分"},{"start":5494.053,"end":5503.079,"text":"很多國人很擔心這個主權基金是不是變成就像我們讓台積電到美國去就像我們在對等關稅當中的時候我們很快的在整個對美談判當中的時候很快的就貢獻出我們台灣的貢獻處為了要讓我們"},{"start":5510.965,"end":5533.28,"text":"前國發會主委我們國民新秘書長說要讓美國再次偉大我們擔心我們的主權基金是不是要配合這件事情我覺得我們主權基金只有一個目的就是讓台灣的產業競爭力更加的強化所以在之後我們對於整個相關的法所以到時候我們主權基金會是國發會這邊在主管嗎我們要看"},{"start":5534.16,"end":5554.505,"text":"行政院指定誰作為主管機關目前還沒有確定那這個問題剛丟出來我想說您這邊如果對於1月15號給立法院的資料跟你現在要再次對政府的一個政策做一個辯護的時候要怎麼樣轉彎你再跟本辦公室做一個很詳細的一個報告我們會跟委員仔細的解釋絕對不是法夾彎"},{"start":5555.785,"end":5583.684,"text":"然後我這邊我要特別問一件事情就是說因為在這一次就是賴總統的這個一年的報告當中的時候整個市政滿意度當中的時候我發現經濟的議題當中是民眾非常的不滿意的包括TTBS民調當中的時候我對經濟發展跟能源政策其實在整個滿意度當中都非常非常的偏低那麼在進新聞的民調當中的時候呢就是對經濟滿意度的"},{"start":5586.085,"end":5604.531,"text":"比例也是最低的在各項指標裡面最低那因為時間有限我想特別請教郭部長一下因為我們的那個核管法已經通過了那對於現在台電的用電情況因為新達電廠藍莓機組30號藍莓機組現在這個時間點還繼續在運轉當中對不對我請台電跟你說明一下"},{"start":5614.865,"end":5633.181,"text":"興達其實他還沒有除役他去年9月就到期對不對我們送審他在嚴審中他嚴審中的時候呢可是基本上沒有被批准所以當時的時候提到一個狀態就是說當我們的備載電量在8%以下的時候他可以作為緊急使用是不是這個情況"},{"start":5634.362,"end":5662.531,"text":"所以說現在我們的興達電廠30號藍莓酒現在我們在質詢這時間點它還在運作就表示我們現在的備載容量已經在8%左右或者低於8%的情況是這樣子嗎它是在之前我們前幾天預估夜間風有可能不到8%所以它必須運作那機組的特性你運作之後不能讓它上來就馬上停它必須要適用機組的特性讓它慢慢的去做適度的降載所以它必須"},{"start":5663.311,"end":5688.253,"text":"所以這個地方就像我之前幾個禮拜我問到一個大林五號機組天然氣機組的時候也是已經除夜之後的時候現在變成緊急使用然後台電也在使用那現在興達電廠三四號燃煤機組我們這個時間點他還繼續在用然後已經到期了然後你們說你們要研議可是還沒有過的時候呢他現在用緊急使用的時候然後我們現在正在燒"},{"start":5690.467,"end":5711.805,"text":"興達電廠30號燃煤機組那我這邊的時候我要特別跟郭部長這邊提到一個點你現在給我30秒鐘我做一個結論你超過5分鐘了針對這個我們就是核管法已經過了你之前的時候你有跟我提到說我們最快的時候如果行政部門配合跟我們要去訂製新的燃料棒的時候大概需要16到18個月對不對"},{"start":5714.247,"end":5739.815,"text":"所以我在想說我們目前對於這個部分要怎麼樣的去讓台灣的電力其實能夠充足夠用因為德國去年比我們提早一年變成非核家園他們現在出現一個很清楚缺電跟電價高漲的情況他們也開始表示不反對法國他們要在歐盟當中把核能"},{"start":5741.365,"end":5758.516,"text":"提為再生能源這樣的一個主張所以德國的態度也在做很清楚的改變好 那我們希望吼 國務部長這邊針對核管法通過之後我們之後經濟部這邊要怎麼去做我們的能源政策給本席一個很清楚的一個時間點的一個說明 好不好好 我們會參考大家的這個意見啦 請請謝謝好 謝謝我還是要懇請各位委員稍微遵守一下時間我都會給大家多幾分鐘吼 但是"},{"start":5772.281,"end":5790.209,"text":"今天五分 她已經說十分我都會給你們說十分我都要十分 我才會站起來我自己說五分而已今天召委不是我 我是代理的來 請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":5807.697,"end":5830.89,"text":"主席有請這個國發會副主委來請高副主委副主委好這個0403地震是去年4月3號發生非常謝謝陳建仁院長到佐隆泰院長"},{"start":5832.148,"end":5857.151,"text":"到交通部長多次的到這個花蓮實地的去視察但是呢經過了一年多這段時間呢斷斷續續都有一下子就中斷一下子就中斷北回鐵路啊從這個民國80年左右開始通車"},{"start":5859.734,"end":5888.208,"text":"一直到現在只有0403地震當下都還安全的都沒有問題是後來的一陣特別多後來一陣特別多才造成現在一下大雨就中斷5月18號又嚴重的中斷真的是要感謝神沒有發生任何的人員的傷亡跟火車的這些"},{"start":5889.691,"end":5907.666,"text":"都能夠及時的停下來所以這個是非常急迫的它除了鐵路之外也包含了蘇花公路所以這樣的一個情形一年多了這個計畫我也曾經這個質詢過國發會趕快去協調交通部行政院"},{"start":5918.474,"end":5942.194,"text":"諮詢國發會當初彭副主委說好所以這個部分一直到上個月我也諮詢交通部對於這個0403台鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施改善計劃其實何人到何人到這個崇德才一點多公里1.6公里"},{"start":5945.031,"end":5969.203,"text":"我們看這個到現在都還沒有都還在交通部喔這幾天啊 副主委這幾天會送到國發會請國發會把這個計畫趕快送到行政院我們跟原報告那個黃先生跟我說我們已經送到行政院了不是台鐵喔就是剛剛那個計畫你剛剛講的是蘇花安啊"},{"start":5972.672,"end":5988.584,"text":"對 蘇花安你講的是蘇花安這個我每天都在掌控都在追蹤因為我當公務員當過管制考核的公務人員我們來看北迴鐵路北迴鐵路79.2公里5.7公里的新線然後20個大橋16座隧道設了14個站兩個月"},{"start":6001.574,"end":6022.503,"text":"因為颱風謝東敏省主席去跟蔣經國院長報告之後馬上核定然後就動工非常非常快 六年就完工 這麼長的現在科技這麼發達真的是難以想像我們看蘇花安"},{"start":6026.597,"end":6052.538,"text":"108年12月20號蔡政府時代做了可行性研究的核定一直到113年12月9號交通部把這個計畫送到行政院就剛這個有講了當初我也有諮詢過國發會趕快送去你們也很快的送去但是放在院長的桌上五個多月了"},{"start":6055.592,"end":6079.993,"text":"所以这个部分真的要重视继续继续协调好不好我们就我们的执掌我们部分我们会来协助这个非常非常的重要因为台湾真的很小啊然后就这么一小段树花改的工程呢"},{"start":6081.824,"end":6107.855,"text":"兩年了從可行性研究核定兩年就核定的這個新建計劃民國97年馬英九時代都會做比較人民會做比較所以好不好好何況這個書房是比較好做的是當初書花改是比較困難的好不好好是的好接下來這個"},{"start":6111.329,"end":6126.851,"text":"演兵會的原住民族住宅四年三期計畫這114年到117年了我上次也有質詢了上次也有質詢這個就是為了因應什麼社會住宅"},{"start":6128.773,"end":6146.394,"text":"住宅法第二條第四項規定的很清楚要興建裝工研駐營成出的社會住宅到現在都沒有啊105年12月23號修正的這個住宅法到現在都還沒有一個都沒有所以而現在這個"},{"start":6148.274,"end":6176.136,"text":"都會區的差距非常大住宅的自由力所以大部分幾戶都是要承租了所以這樣的一個原住民人口已經達到在都會區51.57%了在這樣一個情形之下地方政府他也希望興建專攻原住民族的社會住宅要依住宅法但是就是沒有錢"},{"start":6177.964,"end":6201.891,"text":"沒有錢在這樣的情形之下所以我上次質詢的時候希望能夠去修正這個3月19號質詢國發會你們那時候也同意同意修正這個原住民住宅的四年三期計劃你們同意所以現在時間很緊迫"},{"start":6205.749,"end":6233.716,"text":"趕快 圓明會也送來了嗎?還沒有嗎?還沒有我們有協調圓明會去規劃這個修很容易啦因為原來已經有這個四年計畫嘛只是把這個社會住宅就是匡列多少錢就這樣而已嘛委員我們再去追蹤一下進度因為圓明會已經有很多經驗了其實最快的是什麼?我在當副主委的時候最快的是什麼?"},{"start":6235.25,"end":6255.987,"text":"編一筆預算公務預算直接買啊直接買嘛集合民間的集合式住宅空的他剛蓋好的對不對也是促進啊對不對所以這個機會很容易如果是要架構那最容易連新建還要花很多時間反正現在空屋很多嘛對不對好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6260.486,"end":6265.288,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 那下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長請部長委員早 部長好"},{"start":6290.918,"end":6305.363,"text":"河山廠的二號機在17號的時候停役那台灣正式進入到了非核家園那我們也可以看到停役了之後呢那麼這幾天我們台中火力發電廠呈現了火力全開17號、18號晚上的中火機組都達到90%的運轉"},{"start":6312.284,"end":6327.109,"text":"而且10部機當中有一部機睡休 剩下9部機是超運轉那台電呢一下子說火力全開是假訊息一下子說不是夜間多發 是日間減發我們很直接的看一下發電量的圖17號跟18號 19號都比去年同期增加大概1000至2000MW"},{"start":6341.073,"end":6342.555,"text":"如果按照台電臉書上面所說的他沒有多發而且還說他是減罰"},{"start":6349.704,"end":6371.833,"text":"但是同期是增加這麼多在這樣的一個情況之下台電到底是真的裝傻還是故意的呢為什麼不願承認中火的發電為什麼要欺騙我們的國人所以我更質疑的是說在台電一直說火力全開是在造謠"},{"start":6373.274,"end":6389.86,"text":"但是我們強調中火10步機已經有超過6年它沒有10步全開 已經有超過了這是大家一直一直一直中央地方大家努力所以在10步機當中有9步火力全開這有什麼好得意的"},{"start":6394.212,"end":6395.333,"text":"站在我們台中 站在我們皇屋的這個立場所以數字會說話5月17號、18號單日的中國藍莓量比去年同日多了0.85萬跟1萬噸的這個莓"},{"start":6412.372,"end":6424.449,"text":"那連最基礎的數據都已經強烈的告訴我們我們還要硬拗嗎我們還要硬拗中火沒有增加發電我們還要硬拗沒有增加負擔"},{"start":6426.135,"end":6436,"text":"台電到底把台中人的健康是當笑話嗎本席再給你一個背景也就是台電在一起的時候 燃氣機組的環評他承諾在非空無際的時候只開九步機所以換句話說台電現在能夠開的就是九步九步全開不是火力全開嗎還要硬拗這個嗎所以事實上我們看到目前為止"},{"start":6455.765,"end":6474.744,"text":"台中的中火因為市府監督環保的限制我們大多運轉部長大概60%但是這幾天為了供電為了補上河山電力的一個缺口九部機組都要超運轉尤其到了晚上"},{"start":6475.925,"end":6495.751,"text":"中國都是增加50%以上的發電量各機組的運轉都幾乎要超過90%一直開到半夜 您看看半夜的天空是如何一直開到半夜的凌晨就是展現這樣子的一個樣態所以本期要請教"},{"start":6499.048,"end":6513.772,"text":"是不是因為預測到會加開這個火力所以過去我們在討論的時候中火機組爭議的時候政府不敢承諾逐年遞減 減煤的數字只有說到2031年才開始減煤但是 本席要說像這樣子 在這幾天中火超高的一個變轉量 燃煤量"},{"start":6529.668,"end":6542.063,"text":"當然會加大我們台中的空污會傷害台中人的健康所以部長進入夏天這樣子的一個火力全開請問部長會是常態嗎會是常態嗎請問部長我請台電跟你回答一下"},{"start":6549.403,"end":6558.628,"text":"是 跟委員再說明啦剛才委員其實有提到台電跟台中市政府配合的情況下請問 針對本席的提問像這樣的情況尤其在現在夏天火力全開這會是常態嗎當然不會是常態啊當然不會是常態 這是你應許的本來就不是常態的 不知道委員本來就不是常態 那為什麼要這樣子呢"},{"start":6575.816,"end":6603.038,"text":"最近幾天其實是因為日間跟夜間的關係剛才委員也提到了日間其實太陽光鏡上來的時候其實我們就可以把南美的往下降那夜間如果太陽光鏡是消失的時候南美基礎最近幾天確實是因為有部分的基礎故障所以他才臨時性的把它往上調那但是總歸都會符合在剛才委員提到的我們跟事務的這個當時的承諾非空氣就是最多就只能你請回我再請部長"},{"start":6604.119,"end":6618.401,"text":"部長 本席要請教一定要跟台電好好的來溝通不要只有用話術要欺騙民眾因為面對數字 面對真相"},{"start":6619.656,"end":6641.027,"text":"要怎麼樣能夠去改革能源的配套不要火力全開因為這幾天的數字讓國人嚇一跳讓我們台中人很憂心很憂心剛剛台電回答是說不會是常態我再次請教珠島單位的經濟部長會不會是常態燒很多的煤會不會是常態請教部長"},{"start":6649.059,"end":6664.513,"text":"我們會來跟台電好好的盤點就按照委員所關心的命題我們會努力你會願意跟台電好好的來盤點跟溝通本席具體強調這幾天的數字讓國人"},{"start":6669.082,"end":6676.105,"text":"非常的緊張讓我們台中人中部地區非常的憂心非常的憂心因為我們強調不要火力全開而且我們強調燒很多的煤我們是拒絕的因為在我們的經濟委員會在任會裡頭藍綠白的委員大家共識決也就是今年的中國減煤量要達到100萬噸"},{"start":6697.853,"end":6700.555,"text":"這是經過我們詳實的討論也出了我們的委員會也出了用會所以我在這邊還是要強烈的拜託部長一定要跟台電好好的溝通中火火力全開我們絕對拒絕中火要燒很多煤成為常態我們也絕對拒絕我們拒絕台中人用廢發電部長你的看法呢"},{"start":6729.505,"end":6753.438,"text":"這個委員的這個指教我們都會留意的你會來留意會不會承諾他不是一個常態他不會燒很多煤請教部長那剛才我想我們台電專業的回答就是不會是常態不會是常態所以委員要相信我們專業一定要好好的去溝通一定要好好的溝通我們也會強力的來監督再請教"},{"start":6756.516,"end":6783.278,"text":"我們增購美的天然氣因為部長在中遊在3月份的時候簽署了阿拉斯加的天然氣投資意向書那據報導美國的阿拉斯加州長他說12號他說台灣您向阿拉斯加採購600萬噸的天然氣因為本行非常的重視我們的能源配比到底要怎麼做才能夠真正的去"},{"start":6783.999,"end":6807.444,"text":"火力不全開那所以我們繼續來討論也就是說他說這600萬噸呢大概是佔阿拉斯加這個液化天然氣管線計畫年產人的三成那對阿拉斯加來說 州長說他是佔了史上最大規模的這個天然氣的採購那請教部長 州長所說的是真的嗎是屬實嗎我還沒有說到這個報告"},{"start":6811.618,"end":6825.455,"text":"你還沒收到這個報告可是州長在媒體上披露的那你這個到底怎麼回事啊為什麼這麼重大你還不知道部長這件事情嚴重哦州長已經這麼說12號今天已經22號"},{"start":6830.171,"end":6855.499,"text":"那部長你說你不知道真的不知道嗎因為我上個禮拜都在美國真的不知道嗎我上個禮拜都在美國好你回答不知道那本席要請教那我們3月份中有所簽的因為您是坑頭整個能源的督導單位那您說這麼重大的竟然不知道州長12號都這麼說了你會去了解但是本席請教真正有沒有這樣的投資計畫有沒有有沒有這樣的投資計畫"},{"start":6860.12,"end":6872.831,"text":"你說哪一個投資計畫阿拉斯加的這個投資計畫阿拉斯加是我們有簽了一個意向書那個意向書是我當場在場的那你在場你怎麼會不知道呢但是這個計畫裡面並沒有講說我跟他買600萬噸是沒有所以我們大家都是很想知道真正的"},{"start":6880.117,"end":6888.086,"text":"我們是有投資的意願嘛這個是意向書嘛沒有具體的這個數字所以州長講的是不屬實的在你目前所得到的資訊我們並沒有承諾要買這600萬噸的天然氣是不是如此"},{"start":6904.011,"end":6931.265,"text":"當然是沒有承諾的嘛是沒有承諾好所以繼續本席還要再請教最後一個議題也就是我們計畫要採購美國的油氣那本席也覺得也聽到您的論述就是說中油可以去購買美油然後我們再提煉完了再賣到菲律賓這一件這個計畫是有在進行中嗎報告委員我們本來就有在買美國的油啦對"},{"start":6932.943,"end":6942.478,"text":"然後您說要這個煉製完我們再賣到菲律賓多元發展嘛 有這個計畫嘛是不是是不是 有沒有這個計畫 是"},{"start":6944.777,"end":6964.566,"text":"這個是我們在討論的一個方向所以還沒有確定 還在評估當中這個公務機關還有不像民間啦 收到就可以做啦不是收到 公務機關要評估啊 有沒有在評估要送到大院啊 你們不同意我們也沒辦法說啊中油購買美油 然後提煉完賣到菲律賓這項計畫 本席請問有沒有這個計畫 有沒有評估"},{"start":6973.471,"end":6979.272,"text":"現在目前是沒有這個計畫因為我們在訊息當中當然一定要問真正的這個主管機關單位才不會以而傳而這個就是本席所提問的目標謝謝所以有任何的訊息我們也希望可以得到真正的這個方向一起為我們的能源配備改革方案來努力"},{"start":6996.616,"end":7025.736,"text":"那最後我給一個功課就是部長我一直在跟你討論的我們就希望說我們要解決台電的財務黑洞那我們的能源配比的方向所以包括本席剛剛提到阿拉斯加包括了這個美油購買的方向我想你也絞盡腦汁怎麼樣可以多元去發展我希望能夠在你們的評估效益當中能源配比的方案給本席一份資料"},{"start":7028.457,"end":7053.152,"text":"這個多元的能源是我們的政策我們會找到能夠讓它的成本能夠不斷的降低這個才是我們努力的方向但是因為綠電是未來在整個世界上面對產業有十足的需求所以我們會用這個方向來努力各種"},{"start":7054.452,"end":7065.576,"text":"各種多元 各種方向 這也是本席一直考慮很多次的能源的配比我們要怎麼樣去改革 去精進 去優化先把這說明給本席 謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員那我們下一位請陳超明委員質詢"},{"start":7087.813,"end":7098.339,"text":"主席好,首先邀請我們經濟部我們的郭部長,跟國發會我們的高副主委。國發會高副主委。委員好,部長好。外資團條文洋情報委員提問你台電的問題,你說叫我相信專業。"},{"start":7111.889,"end":7124.794,"text":"但是在立法院幾十年裡面,台電本來本身就很專業,但是被政治化所影響,從電價一直起來起來,你不維持電價的上漲。"},{"start":7126.212,"end":7152.132,"text":"你們要表示我執政我的意義,我不把電價上漲,表示我執政很強,但是其實裡面暗藏了很多先驚。所謂台電以前是讓人家結了非常相信的單位,現在講的話不一定相信。我不知道你自己有沒有感受,沒有感受,你體驗到的出現,你應該很了解啦。像你有人說一些白痴話,我們也聽不下去。"},{"start":7153.971,"end":7175.97,"text":"第二點,談到中英跟阿拉斯加,我算數很夠,你說意向是但是無望不起啦,600萬噸要去採購,還有油管配備我們要跟日本、韓國結合在一起去投資你到美國不是談這個事情,你到美國是談我們如何投資美國"},{"start":7177.071,"end":7190.575,"text":"你帶了一百多家的大企業在那邊,你是韜光臺灣,你還不承認我沒有意向啊?你人選了遠道開就很好,但心裡你在說老實話嘛,不可以這樣好來好去啦。回答一下,我不知道你聽得懂嗎?簡單的好。"},{"start":7197.182,"end":7204.909,"text":"報告委員我們帶了138家的企業包括48家新創的企業去美國去參加比賽就是說我們帶48家新創的企業到美國投資美國我們是對新創的企業適不適合在世界的舞台裡面運作"},{"start":7218.321,"end":7225.725,"text":"謝謝你的關心,我們這次10月8日裡面有三家獲得獎我們是在比賽裡面,我們是第二名沒有時間跟你說,你們的姿勢就是執政黨當時我站著頭又痛,這是第一點今天我們叫做解凍,凍結冰就是解凍但是保證,我現在有一個資料"},{"start":7244.304,"end":7270.687,"text":"在我們委員會裡面,三減預算你經濟部本部才三減一百萬產化史、國貿史、中小企業史、智慧史、地礦中心三減預算是零商業發展史、水利史、標檢局、延期管理局、能源史三減預算是零"},{"start":7272.184,"end":7295.571,"text":"這裡面有凍結到經濟部本部三十二億兩千一百二十萬凍結到產花時三千一百萬凍結到智慧財產前兩千五百萬商業發展時兩百萬水利時五百萬標準捷內級凍結一百萬能源級凍結一百萬你補充來你看"},{"start":7302.608,"end":7329.122,"text":"說執政黨的委員對你好那無庸置疑他一定要支持你我們在野黨的委員這種預算哪裡是眷戀啊你知道立法院的形態主席最了解他們都很兇他說要改為動靜以前在宰預算的時候要講預算的時候來我今天要問你動靜跟山頂有什麼不同"},{"start":7334.408,"end":7343.513,"text":"刪減就是直接把這個費用刪掉好啊 凍結是大家比我對這個問題還不瞭解我先把你凍結下來我們再來討論你再來報告我再跟你講一件事書面報告就是要這樣過的全套報告令人困難"},{"start":7355.001,"end":7362.612,"text":"你們現在這個都是講假話你也有行政所長在大罷免案裡面喊話聽到頂真的是一片煩人不然你我怎麼這樣講我們看到很無奈"},{"start":7369.71,"end":7394.304,"text":"你這個預算是刪減包括凍結最少你這樣說我聽好像我們在野黨在求你們執政黨你們的執政黨不要求在野黨就好但這事情要實在 要有良心現在大壩沒辦法如火如荼現在如果講到刪減預算的話就是抗中保台害台沒那麼嚴重"},{"start":7395.595,"end":7410.752,"text":"大家都很善良為台灣這一塊土地你們是無謀不齊啦胡言亂語等於如果你們這個行政使館在上台講話的話你們就是屬於詐騙集團這次了情窮秋色"},{"start":7411.713,"end":7427.171,"text":"我是沒有被罷免成功奧運生意苗栗宣經之所我是來支持我們那些被罷免的三十幾位立法委員國會議員遮緊你娘你的總統也遮緊你娘後來你就被罷免台語算不台"},{"start":7429.912,"end":7439.674,"text":"這哪裡是民主的國家講了實在令人屈服還好你話講得少,我今天讓你過關你真的讓我抬頭說話才會跟你賭,表示你還有良心啦再來,我要跟你抱怨,這次強化經濟地方運送"},{"start":7451.383,"end":7471.481,"text":"其實你不怎麼禁止,這是關稅,這是生意要發展,要保持台灣的產業機能你知道你再拖多少,放到國安會,你支持產業安定就業930億你政治部才拿了750億,還有"},{"start":7474.673,"end":7497.087,"text":"六大面向還有農業三大面向一百八十一本來是要糾正一些不要讓經濟人家恐慌起來結果國土安全日益性一千五百億這個問題也敏感反對叫做什麼抗中保台賣台灣他們會這麼想我第一次把這個問題提出來強調昨天討論這個問題其實預算大家可以討論用在哪裡"},{"start":7505.35,"end":7533.188,"text":"但是我看到執政黨的委員極力的在批評我們在那裡面怎麼要限制性的招標,難怪他們的壞你講人家壞事,我也懷疑你的壞事,大家不要破壞感情底下不要這樣,每一個人可以彈劾心胸來講話一講到美國不好,講到日本不好,就是賣台誰敢讓民主政治那樣在走我是在講出來"},{"start":7534.967,"end":7546.795,"text":"還有我們國家的經濟政策,我希望在你手裡,你要有那種企業的眼光。現在要組織投資美國國家隊,我們總統出來說我們要組織AI國家的資金基金,我們的行政院長又提出AI的十大。"},{"start":7557.973,"end":7578.782,"text":"對於它的十大基礎建設 哈利福哥這樣不知道要靠哪一邊但是部長 AI台灣跟MVRI合作起來還好有這個AI台灣的電子產業一片欣欣向榮真的天保佑台灣不然你現在要做什麼 平板電腦什麼電腦 它已經放棄在地"},{"start":7583.809,"end":7605.644,"text":"所以這是台灣人的怕病,你把台積電創設計都不談這些,你有永遠記得嗎?你說我們AI邊緣的那個應用預算的時候,我們要台灣加強,我們要做到世界第三,你現在是AI資源基金,你是要拿來投資國外?"},{"start":7606.587,"end":7620.854,"text":"我們台灣沒有港幣,錢也沒有多少,極盡的投資國外給別人利用,你為什麼不把這些錢用來台灣的AI邊緣預算,AI的基礎建設台灣最強,使盡求遠,外國生活好壞,外國人就更有公威,你應該把這個錢去爭取嘛,"},{"start":7629.332,"end":7639.01,"text":"你不能搖頭你變成企業實際的在做變成一個政客了還欣賞你以為可以當政治家來講實話"},{"start":7641.465,"end":7660.781,"text":"你跟你說你們的政策脫離中國我們要進入美國不然你把脫離中國看看我不是那樣的現在說起來那筆書又大大你仔細又看好喔說我在賣台我是要在台灣信我們要左右紅顏啦潘瑞丟到那裡看啦不可以這樣啦"},{"start":7662.142,"end":7663.303,"text":"我們這個地方是完全大家的看法是一樣"},{"start":7683.982,"end":7702.33,"text":"AI的邊緣運算我們這個經濟部在我們的技術師跟我們的產發署大力發現在在培育AI邊緣運算的人才我們預定在4年裡面培養20萬的人才有人才才有辦法把產業發展起來"},{"start":7703.51,"end":7723.507,"text":"其他的都是空虛的我就是讀過你要培養AI邊緣運算你要變成我們台灣在AI的軟體裡面變成第三強不敢跟美國爭啊 客氣一點啦但是這個事情要在這裡發揮 那是公本沒有你阿伯你會落後 我跟你說那阿伯是變得很快"},{"start":7725.556,"end":7730.28,"text":"我不曉得中國大陸說這次有編這個預算在這個...好不好 我們真的你來跟台灣登馬步啦阿免說國防預算 不然我再跟你講幾句話大軍未動 兩朝先行"},{"start":7742.189,"end":7755.158,"text":"這個糧草你現在台灣是靠AI這個產業去探險的喔 說得比他聽一千五百會防止中國大陸日軍能打掉 我完全支持那請凱特代理問答謝謝委員支持好不好 謝謝好好 謝謝陳曹明陳委員剛才你如果沒有這麼罵就讓你說你讓我拿菜"},{"start":7769.346,"end":7794.267,"text":"好 那我們等一下謝一鳳委員諮詢完 我們休息五分鐘好 請謝一鳳委員諮詢謝謝主席 我想請國發會的高副主委跟郭部長來 請部長跟高副主委"},{"start":7797.376,"end":7817.122,"text":"人家說這個主權基金的設立是從馬政府蔡政府到現在提出來你就歷經了這三個政府你對於主權基金的設立你有什麼了解為什麼從過去沒有辦法設立"},{"start":7817.964,"end":7842.885,"text":"我覺得過去沒有辦法設立就是基本上社會上沒有一致的沒有共識就是大家對於主權設計的目的資金的來源這些沒有共識這樣子那現在呢已經有共識了有立法了嗎因為其實就目前我們面臨的國內外的經濟情勢來說應該現在是主權基金可以成立的一個應該是一個"},{"start":7845.034,"end":7863.09,"text":"的時機啦因為我們對外其實我們知道我們面對美國的那個關稅的新政地緣政治風險的提高等等的然後其實國內也累積了我們有很好的我們有很好的財政的基礎我們也有豐厚的這個外匯存底"},{"start":7863.73,"end":7880.664,"text":"我們某個程度上在這個時點我們覺得當然主權基金成立它有它的風險性可是就我們這些主客觀條件來評估的時候我們覺得我們現在是可以做主權基金成立的演繹這件事情但是"},{"start":7881.565,"end":7899.332,"text":"央行即便他們現在不持反對的態度但是他們認為不應該無常的使用我們的外匯存訂那對於主權基金資金的相關來源我們現在目前行政院有什麼規劃"},{"start":7900.812,"end":7929.924,"text":"我們現在還在研議當中他是說無償那某個程度上有償可能也是形態之一就是其他的國家也有用有償的方式來運用該國的外匯存底國務部長在你旁邊一直點頭你是不是有同意要投資他們報告委員我想我們在這個發展AI的這個過程裡面大家都知道就是說這個最大的市場是在美國"},{"start":7931.308,"end":7953.177,"text":"那所以這個我們現在因為這個關稅的命題發生了以後我們大家也重新檢討一下我們發展的策略那麼AI我們在台灣我們在發展AI的邊緣應用那這個部分我們做很多但是在這個AI的所謂的發展跟AI的研究這個部分市場還是在美國"},{"start":7954.077,"end":7974.651,"text":"那如果说我们今天在发展这个策业可以从开始就能够关注就能够投资我想对后面的这个加码会有很大的帮助所以我们认为这个AI主权基金的这个设立在当下来讲是非常正确的一个选择是AI主权基金还是主权基金"},{"start":7975.491,"end":7995.139,"text":"過去因為我們現在主權基金其實是對台灣以外地區的投資台灣我們已經有現在的國發基金跟我們的台山這些基金都可以對台灣的這些創新的企業可以投資但是對他們是不能夠投資海外的"},{"start":7995.959,"end":8012.041,"text":"因為我們現在發現市場大部分都在海外的幾個地區去發展所以對我們來講我們的企業有一些企業也會去加入到海外的市場所以我們會對他們來做一些投資我認為"},{"start":8014.27,"end":8042.556,"text":"現在來設立這個國家主權基金是一個非常合適的這個時機但是過去沒有辦法設立就是第一個民眾對於這個主權基金的設立在投資部分大家怕如果給予政府一個授權的時候如果賠了咧如果發生弊案你怎麼防弊"},{"start":8043.556,"end":8069.294,"text":"如果你就是大家也期待啊我们可以跟新加坡的主权基金一样可以赚钱啊但是新加坡的主权基金也有赔钱的时候啊全球的市场是怎么样的赔钱的时候他的经理人就要下来啊是不是那你怎么样子给民众一个监督的机会大家担心啊"},{"start":8070.407,"end":8072.569,"text":"對不對 大家在想說要賺錢 結果錢沒賺到 心療疾耶是啦 我想這都是專業的問題啦 環境跟專業 能夠賺錢跟不賺錢那這個我想我們台灣這些專業的投資者 他們應該是經驗非常豐富啦"},{"start":8089.867,"end":8116.393,"text":"所以我們在這個看以台灣現在的投資業者他們的專業的能力來講事實上他們都有很多人都參與世界的這個投資的機會我們會設立法定會有一些法令然後會來這個設定這個專法那麼有專責管理機構來明定它的各項包括設定的目的資金的來源完算治理跟監理的架構"},{"start":8117.994,"end":8126.747,"text":"會來確保主權基金營運公開透明並符合政策目標所以我再問那個副主委喔我再問一下副主委"},{"start":8128.462,"end":8145.094,"text":"副主委那未來到底主權基金的主管單位是誰對由行政院來決定你們還沒有確定是不是你們的討論裡面還沒有確定是不是央行已經認為不應該是他們所以是財政部還是你們國發會還是經濟部由行政院來決定"},{"start":8148.716,"end":8177.491,"text":"經濟部想要不要行政院主管然後他們來指定對所以還沒確定是的那國發會會不會主動的爭取跨部會嗎你們要振興國內的產業是不是我想行政院會就各部會的執掌跟工人他選定最合適的主管機關那我們基本上就是遵從行政院的決定"},{"start":8178.598,"end":8203.295,"text":"那如果獲利了咧要怎麼樣子分配你說獲利是不是所以很重要就是說我們必須要有一個法然後還要有一個專責獨立的專責機關我就是說確保之前我們大家認為主權基金有可能會產生的相關的一些弊病等等的就要在這個專法還有這個獨立的專責機關裡面這些機構所以是獨立的專責機關也許不在國發會"},{"start":8208.439,"end":8211.924,"text":"也不在財政部 是不是就是說他也會有一個主管機關他會設立一個專責的管理的機構然後有一個專法"},{"start":8221.159,"end":8240.745,"text":"來做相關的規範所以也不確定獲利會不會撥入例如像勞退就是勞工的退休金或者是可以固定的就是把所有的獲利還稅於零我覺得這些都可以在專法裡面去做討論是嗎 是的那我最後還有一個問題請教郭部長現在"},{"start":8243.803,"end":8269.492,"text":"根據中央社的外電法國官員證實了德國的新內閣他們釋出的訊號他說歐盟不再反對將核能視同再生就是他們不再反對核能可以視同再生能源那所以在核能復興的趨勢以及投資能源產業的發展"},{"start":8271.684,"end":8298.513,"text":"我們政府部門是不是還要堅持非核家園因為他們已經把它視為再生能源了是 報告委員我想中央社應該只是片面的了解啦歐盟並沒有發表證明說它是正確的我說德國的德國的那個新內閣這德國的建議是這樣子他們已經認為就是核能是歐盟並沒有確認"},{"start":8300.828,"end":8323.675,"text":"那他們對於淨零碳排的這個就是影響我們等歐盟確認以後我們會納入我們的參考所以要等歐盟確認以後是不是大家只是提一個proposal不代表是已經確定的方式那如果歐盟確定核能是在深圳原的情況下我們會納入我們的參考納入參考會不會再堅持不用核能我們會納入參考經過評估以後再做決定"},{"start":8330.916,"end":8339.866,"text":"好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝一鳳委員那我們就先休息五分鐘"},{"start":8358.807,"end":8360.468,"text":"今天一定要簽出去"},{"start":8388.137,"end":8393.121,"text":"所以這個是已經確定 都剛好 因為我剛好 這樣就說好 全面的採訪 全面的採訪 全面的採訪 全面的採訪 全面的採訪"},{"start":8417.517,"end":8417.627,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8421.121,"end":8442.875,"text":"1 2 3 就好你懂我意思嗎好 聽到後來我每個設定都標明一個是國際作法然後另外是國內國內的東西是被規劃的就是每次被行政局都提出不法進行所以我第一點我跟憲哥說然後他大概挺拳擊擊的對 自己好然後然後"},{"start":8448.779,"end":8459.967,"text":"所以接下來國內就是說我國的設立我們應該要考量什麼然後我覺得那個設立目的要把我們總統說的那些不是我可能做的如果我撐一撐就做AI這些設立目的"},{"start":8471.275,"end":8487.682,"text":"那另外如果用策略行動可以增加收入等等就是我把前面的說完說完反正都是國際股份那內股有設定問題上次那個股份內也有一面頭腦亂亂不行嗎第二個資金來源也是國際的國際理念就分國際大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":8498.986,"end":8505.355,"text":"然後呢,他先幫你弄一個太陽鏡他是前頭髮的,你覺得髮型是他髮在的還是他外圍的,你懂我嗎?你知道嗎?不要亂講"},{"start":8515.789,"end":8524.191,"text":"我是財政生意,這個要怎麼樣?這是國產,這是國產我國內的企業,是內業當中的然後我們的專業,這個是國產可是這個可能不相同,看起來不相同"},{"start":8545.606,"end":8545.646,"text":"對 就是這邊"},{"start":8568.415,"end":8580.323,"text":"這個就超我妹妹的去看確定地點對 等到裡面有一些東西然後要考慮什麼確定地點如果去跟妳說目的那我就是要看設計什麼然後直接就知道了"},{"start":8598.316,"end":8600.859,"text":"好,我先上去,你放在我这边"},{"start":8613.012,"end":8613.112,"text":"好嘞"},{"start":8646.713,"end":8647.573,"text":"哦 冷凍起雲冷凍"},{"start":8661.578,"end":8673.087,"text":"他前三晚才計算一個月還是昨天就明天送過去就開始送過去所以是昨天就算了還是明天會送明天才開始送各位"},{"start":8682,"end":8692.549,"text":"那你們會在禮拜天再說不要急就算了那我們就可以七月到時候再處理六月我打給你們看六月就這樣會做到"},{"start":8715.177,"end":8715.537,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8760.771,"end":8763.913,"text":"好我們繼續開會那下一位質詢請賴瑞榮委員質詢"},{"start":8772.403,"end":8799.573,"text":"好 謝昭偉 請郭部長跟高副主委好 請部長跟副主委好 先請教一下部長這個這陣子包括AI的投資包括黃雲勳 包括輝達跟AMD在台灣投資大家都相當關心那輝達也宣布他的總部設在台北這邊那因為高雄也有亞灣2.0 亞灣"},{"start":8802.534,"end":8826.188,"text":"智慧科技創新園區的170億的一個投資那我想問一下部長在輝達跟AMD在高雄的投資這個部分有沒有想要更具體的一些進度報告委員我想這個輝達在高雄的投資我們可以看到他在最重要的這個智慧城市"},{"start":8829.48,"end":8844.067,"text":"這個數位暖身用在這個智慧城市已經是非常成功的所以之前他的演講上面也特別介紹這一段那我們相信這樣的一個合作"},{"start":8845.219,"end":8866.848,"text":"那麼在未來這個智慧城市會copy到全世界一些發展數位化的這個國家這是一個非常好的一個例子那我們當然也非常的我想高雄非常的這個榮幸能夠跟這個世界最強大的這個數位公司能夠做這樣的一個合作"},{"start":8867.768,"end":8886.105,"text":"那第二个这个AMD在高雄来讲的话可以看得出来它在这个西光石上面事实上这个有非常大的一个投资跟这个发展我想这个代表全世界最关注AI的两大公司"},{"start":8887.133,"end":8913.445,"text":"都有在高雄做一些深入的這些發展部長 勸一下AMD的這個研發中心跟辦公室的部分這個持續在推動當中嗎這個在進度當中那回答除了AI的算力中心超級算力中心以外另外像主權AI燈卡的計畫跟甚至於研發中心這個有朝這個方向在推動嗎現在這個NVIDIA在它的這個超級電腦這個台北ONE"},{"start":8915.766,"end":8940.675,"text":"是在雅灣這個是確定的那它當然會繼續發展我相信這個高雄的雅灣那麼在整個世界上面會漸漸的展露出來我們在高雄在數位的研究跟人才的匯聚有一個非常重要的一些成績出來"},{"start":8941.035,"end":8963.175,"text":"我們希望部長持續來協助坦白講這一次的總部沒有設在高雄高雄沒有入選其實我們是有一點失望的但是也希望將來的部分持續推因為亞灣2.0包括智慧科技參選區的投入在這個地方那還是需要更多的力道那當然台北跟高雄台北是佔有一些優勢那我們還是希望"},{"start":8963.775,"end":8988.977,"text":"在部裡面在整個中央裡面還是能夠全力的來協助讓這些包含輝達、AMV包含幾個重要的這些AI的巨擘能夠順利的能夠在高雄持續的來推展好不好請部長再持續大力來協助我們現在看到這個輝達在選擇台北當然因為他過去在台北的這個研發大樓本來就在台北就已經有只是他是那個租賃的大樓"},{"start":8990.267,"end":9010.716,"text":"那他現在這個自己來購買土地來興建符合他未來發展的這樣的一個道路我想這個是當然基於這個現實的考量他已經有好幾千人在台北上千人在台北這些人要移動到高雄其實他也在困難但是我們發現在未來最重要的"},{"start":9011.667,"end":9026.615,"text":"他的應用其實是在高雄的這一點我想委員你可以放任所以我也希望部長再大力的來寫書特別是智慧這一塊有很多在跟一些基礎產業甚至新興的一些產業的合作上面高雄具有相當多的一些優勢"},{"start":9027.435,"end":9041.361,"text":"我們現在經濟部我們技術師也是重兵在高雄我們的基礎中心在高雄我們是大力的在推動AI的應用"},{"start":9042.762,"end":9059.085,"text":"所以他們這個金融中心在高雄是這個著墨的非常的深啊所以這是不是固定每三個月還是給我一份你們最新的一些狀況讓我知道了好不好就是你們推動的一些狀況讓我知道一下好不好就是整個對於整個產業的一些推動是的這個我們可以"},{"start":9060.046,"end":9080.276,"text":"那另外是機器人其實也是現在黃雲信也提到未來的一個經濟的一個核心那我還是希望這一塊但是我們現在看到這個包括國科會經濟部門國發基金的機器人的500億的這個計畫看起來多數其實我們希望未來跟高雄台南之間有更多的一些連結"},{"start":9081.577,"end":9102.739,"text":"台南看起來有在但是因為高雄台南之間距離相當近我們現在想做更多的連結這個硬體的部分可能是在台南但是軟體的部分這個深層式AI的所有的訓練可能是在高雄所以我們希望這個連結上再更加的強化這個連結是非常重要的請部長跟主委那邊"},{"start":9103.76,"end":9115.518,"text":"那再來我想請教一下啦其實大家今天談到主權基金的部分我是不是也問一下先問一下高副主委好不好主權基金的部分總統提出來他的裁員的部分從哪裡來這個確定了嗎還在討論當中有可能哪些方向"},{"start":9120.127,"end":9143.175,"text":"如果根據國際的話他有可能會來自外匯存底有可能在財政盈餘然後有些國家如果有特殊的生產資源就有原油啊等等的收入都有可能所以這幾個都有可能來跟各部會結局後討論最後一個大概不太因為我們沒有產時我們有特殊的自然資源的收益啊所以可能就是財財政盈餘或者是"},{"start":9144.095,"end":9169.175,"text":"因為全世界各國採用的方式都不太一樣但是不拖你剛剛講的這幾個方法那當然內部會去做討論因為總統有宣誓我想內部會做討論那不排除各種可能性所以也不是哪一位部會首長或哪一位或者是總裁說了就算了其實在恐怕還是要整體國家來整體思考那另外請教一下它的額度未來會是拉到什麼樣的規模有初步的想法嗎這個額度也是在討論也是在討論中"},{"start":9170.626,"end":9194.922,"text":"好 那另外將來會制定一個條例吧 會有一個法律的依據我們目前根據大家有比較有的共識就是會用專法專法來做專責管理機構的方式專法跟專責 那專責機構剛剛大家討論很多現在還沒有確定是哪個機構嘛對不對應該是說會有主管機關可是這個主管機關到時候會成立一個主權基金的專責管理機構"},{"start":9196.933,"end":9223.376,"text":"對 但是這個法會是由哪個部會來主席那當然就是由主責機關來負責所以都有可能啦不管是國發會或者是經濟部都有可能嘛對 主責機關來制定專法跟組建專責機構好 那它未來跟組員基金跟國發基金應該會有一些不同的區隔嘛國發基金應該比較屬於是內兩個同時間都還是會存在嘛是的所以應該一個主要是對內一個是對外的部分啦"},{"start":9224.485,"end":9237.382,"text":"就是也很難說是對內或對外就是他會有他的定位啦這樣子所以不會是將來兩個基金做整併而是會不會是單獨去成立的因為我覺得總統在他的他520的那個"},{"start":9239.284,"end":9256.667,"text":"它已經說明這兩個應該是並行的好 我們也期待未來主權基金能夠扮演讓台灣的整個國家的影響力跟我們的佈局甚至產業的升級甚至於整個跟世界各國友邦的好的互動能夠達到更好的一個效果好 謝謝部長謝謝賴瑞榮委員那下一位請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":9273.939,"end":9275.142,"text":"謝謝我們請經濟部跟國發會好經濟部跟國發會謝謝"},{"start":9288.171,"end":9317.037,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想讓你看一個資料這是我們113年度預算的主決議的提案就是我們在預算當中當時候的主決議非常清楚由我們的立法院經濟委員會通過當時候有做了這個決議說在尚未完成前兩項的要求前能源署不得核發申罷的"},{"start":9317.617,"end":9317.637,"text":"電業執照"},{"start":9337.121,"end":9352.388,"text":"我先不說 申辦一期的回饋金目前到底怎麼了先不要管這個了要談到這個可能又會氣很多但是我先了解"},{"start":9353.268,"end":9374.335,"text":"能源署的部分你們常在說一起的回饋金基本上是依照一起還平這個要我們的環境部好環境部的問題我不問你我現在只有問我們能源署的部分能源署在尚未完成前兩項的要求點不得核發電業執照第一項"},{"start":9377.267,"end":9385.558,"text":"第一項是什麼我們先看一下第一項就是要求回饋金與電協金應秉持促進電力發展營運提升發電輸電及偏電設施周邊地區發展及居民福祉為目的有關"},{"start":9395.111,"end":9411.26,"text":"申辦一期回饋金為依書面規定撥付事宜請能源署依電協經管理辦法規定要求申辦電廠撥補108年至112年電協經的部分113年以後的電協經也要依電協經管理辦法規定辦理這是一期的部分那請問這要求有到位了嗎"},{"start":9422.878,"end":9450.229,"text":"邦委員我請能源署來回答報告那個森霸他並沒有規定來依規定來繳交這個電協金那所以我們已經有通知他要一線來繳交那麼他的金額是在委員我們就算過大概3億7千萬那這是一第二因為他沒有照規定那我們另外也額外有罰款100萬"},{"start":9451.87,"end":9476.663,"text":"那當然森巴目前他是不符這一個我們的處分那正在跟我們溯院當中那麼跟委員報告就是說這個我們未來會依這個溯院的決定來要求他如果他還是不繳的話我們依我們電驗法的規定會持續來加重處罰也就是說我們會一百萬、兩百萬、三百萬這樣子一直去處罰 署長這個是一起喔"},{"start":9480.168,"end":9502.966,"text":"二期你們現在已經過了對不對他都沒有達到我們的要求你就過了已經違反了我們的主決議號二期的部分是明年回饋金是明年對不對他以前年度他的整個獲益所得來計算他的一個回饋金所以二期回饋金都還沒有講到喔"},{"start":9508.57,"end":9526.011,"text":"還沒有繳 對不對 要明年喔所以現在只能講一期 申辦一期的回饋金申辦一期回饋金很清楚 我們已經有我們的電業法之後 我們都有要求到底要怎麼繳交 它從來沒繳交過"},{"start":9529.695,"end":9550.39,"text":"從來沒繳交過所以3.7億我要再次強調這是一期我覺得不要把他搞亂一期3.7億二期你們現在他一期都還沒繳進來你們又核准他了這就是我要講的你們已經違反主決議了在第二個部分第二個要求382期現在"},{"start":9554.858,"end":9583.177,"text":"已經通過了跟我們當時候主角不一樣 主角一直說他在試運轉喔好他在試運轉的部分已經造成民眾對安全的擔憂 因為他是二期的管線沿用一期的管線我們也只有要求你要要求申辦應該提出試運轉檢測資料 這個要提出沒有問題我們也要求你要把未來"},{"start":9584.518,"end":9601.829,"text":"過去沒有問題不代表未來沒有問題未來他如何公正公平公開能夠讓大家知道他的公共安全管線的資料就這個部分他也做不到他也做不到"},{"start":9602.788,"end":9621.617,"text":"是 這樣分成兩個部分就是他的管線安全那麼他有提供資料那也請第三方公證機構來看過這是過去嗎 我現在沒有跟你講過去那他現在委員關心的是說那他未來40年是不是能夠也保證安全"},{"start":9622.197,"end":9649.027,"text":"那这一部分就是说我们是靠未来的监测机制好这个监测机制在哪里吗我只要求说你应该让地方能够参与让地方知道我的管线有没有问题他经过永康新市新化到山上这路径多长啊这是应该的这是人民的权益而且申办"},{"start":9650.067,"end":9676.073,"text":"他的所有管線他的圖資都不完整都不完整這20年前的資料圖資都不完整你要叫人民怎麼信心能夠相信他的管線沒有問題當然你們現在有學者專家願意被他背書可是請問我人民總有權去要求未來吧"},{"start":9676.678,"end":9703.19,"text":"是這是應該的那所以我們有叫這個森巴他要把他的這個現在的資料放在網站上他有放在網站上那未來他會持續做監測你監測系統都不在了請問這些網站都是吃一些資料而已你應該把你的網站安全的監測在哪裡在永康設一點新市設一點"},{"start":9704.23,"end":9713.121,"text":"然後山上設一點 新化設一點那麼所有的李明 民眾 就得知道這些資料就是從這邊跑出來的是應該是這樣做啊 並沒有欸你們都完全 申辦怎麼講 你們就怎麼做"},{"start":9720.951,"end":9730.196,"text":"沒有啦 我們有第三方 剛才報告第三方的認證機構不是第三方認證機構 第三方認證是之前不代表未來 未來要公開透明民眾只是要求這個樣子有很困難嗎沒有 這是應該做的是啊 可是你們並沒有要求他啊你們還是讓他過啦"},{"start":9744.362,"end":9769.209,"text":"因為他未來的監測你多久要把這些監測在哪裡永康設一點 新市設一點 新化設一點 山上設一點你把它很清楚透明我們的監測系統在哪裡然後公開在網站當中就是這些監測的單位監測的地方所發出來的資料"},{"start":9770.329,"end":9791.192,"text":"這樣不是就很好了嗎那我們的里長都可以來看地方議員也可以來看那是不是安全上彼此就有一些約束力是不是如此委員 這個要求是合理的那所以我們有要求他未來要把所有的監測資料包括巡檢的資料要PO在網站上"},{"start":9793.13,"end":9815.497,"text":"署長我要點 永康設在哪裡 新市設在哪裡 新化設在哪裡你沒有這些監測點 請問你這些資料怎麼跑出來的 誰知道是 是 他有這些監測點 那我可以提供給你監測點在哪裡 多久要給我們 讓所有的民眾來知道我的監測點在哪裡"},{"start":9816.917,"end":9834.139,"text":"可以 我們大概一禮拜我們提供這個資料就他的監測點包括他未來的監測機制是什麼那他要定期把他監測的結果來告訴民眾一個禮拜喔我們會要求他來做 沒問題"},{"start":9835.2,"end":9853.251,"text":"地下管線 署長地下管線不能開玩笑啦是是他只要一個氣爆 整個都沒了整個都沒了 署長一個禮拜喔我等你給我這些監測的地方然後他的監測系統怎麼公開透明"},{"start":9854.351,"end":9873.083,"text":"這個部分再拜託然後3.7億一期的回饋金到底什麼時候要入到我們市庫市庫喔 因為這回饋金是給地方的對不對 要給我們市庫 你要追啊沒錯 申辦有律師團啊哪知道我們又過輸啦 我跟你說我們八包起來放啦"},{"start":9881.957,"end":9894.426,"text":"我們有信心才會做這樣的處分所以要多久趕快入我們的事庫這個也要給我們一個時間表這個部分很重要我們再拜託我們的國發會"},{"start":9898.206,"end":9916.617,"text":"我們要拜託我們當時候經濟委員會下去考察所有唐鐵五分車狼帶創生計畫對不對副主委我要拜託你要怎麼樣請台唐市政府哪一個單位趕快提出這個創生計畫這個狼帶創生太美了"},{"start":9921.874,"end":9946.329,"text":"如果它真的可以完成的話我相信這個部分才是我們西北能夠對這個企業變成是我們的期待跟願望的一個機會人家說對我們的後面變成前途好 所以這個部分多久我們這個副主委是這個唐鐵五分車人大創新計畫多久"},{"start":9950.083,"end":9973.737,"text":"我們要跟地方協調哪一個單位要出來台堂還有市府到底要是從文化部文化局或是我們經發局來提出這個部分多久要把它溝通出來我想我針對委員體這個案子我們會跟市政府還有中央的話大概是經濟部的相關的機關我們來討論一下再給委員回覆一個月好不好"},{"start":9974.637,"end":10001.892,"text":"我們下個禮拜會再從市政府跟我們台堂去針對這幾個問題我們有提出幾個問題就是包括它的斷點要怎麼找替代道路還有我們所有謝嚴台的整個文化部的一個登錄還有相關的這個設置平交道要怎麼連接的部分還有我們所有地方的這些階段的部分"},{"start":10003.311,"end":10024.562,"text":"其實不是問題啦我們都有去看都不是問題只是這小問題我們要怎麼約市府跟台黨把它做一個串聯那但是這個創生計畫狼帶創生計畫一個月提出來看哪一個單位要主責趕快提出來我們是不是先開會先調完我們再給委員答覆好謝謝"},{"start":10034.688,"end":10061.083,"text":"好 謝謝陳廷輝委員那下一位請邱志偉委員質詢謝謝主席 是不是請國會高副主委以及經濟部郭部長請高副主委跟郭部長"},{"start":10065.981,"end":10085.176,"text":"國發基金的效能跟資源分配我一直在關心國發基金可以改成北台灣發展基金那麼多的基金項目投資的這些企業或者天使創業投資經濟委員會四個高雄立委"},{"start":10089.5,"end":10113.626,"text":"台南一位嘉義住在上面中南部的都是經濟委員會主要成員你看你國際基金投資的縣市比例全部都向北升低降百分之87中部寥寥可數3.36南部加起來也只過5.45"},{"start":10117.462,"end":10120.336,"text":"這樣是不是可以改名叫這個北台灣發展基金"},{"start":10122.092,"end":10146.74,"text":"委員其實我們也有發現到也有就是有點重北輕南這是過去16個月的統計啊所以我們原來也知道我們原來在創業天使的投資方案我們原來是準備在1月21號有一個南部服務是啦我知道啦但是因為你的預算被凍結所以沒辦法解凍之後你們趕快去成立但是不是一個人的編制喔"},{"start":10147.08,"end":10173.719,"text":"當然當然不是一個人編制不是創投工會派一個人去那邊是你要背一格喔不會不會我是希望你國發基金撥一半人力成立辦公室或者國發基金全部移到高雄去恐怕因為我們國發基金只有二十幾個人三十幾位我們真正就是大概只有大概其他就是我們正式的你要拿出決心啦一撥一半人力去我想人不是很重要就是工人要發揮才是更重要人為什麼不重要"},{"start":10174.861,"end":10189.421,"text":"執密 副執密 組長全部都在台北你請創投工會 委託創投工會去那邊設立 派一個人去找一個辦公室 坐一個人的椅子你就知道你有服務嗎不會 我們一定會我是希望說啊我不要用決議"},{"start":10190.723,"end":10207.719,"text":"我不用附帶舉意我會要求你國發基金啊你要拿出具體的做法不是光說不練你看這數據多多 我要怎麼對這個南部對高雄 對台南 對嘉義的這些新創這些年輕人我怎麼交代高雄市兩家而已你過去16個月核准了51家"},{"start":10213.649,"end":10218.376,"text":"全部在中北部 全部在北部高雄只有兩家 加起來1100萬"},{"start":10222.368,"end":10246.55,"text":"其實我們除了創業天使以外我們還有其他的所有投資做的重整不是創業天使而已你看這個表是所有你們投資方案所以我們接下來我們也會責成各部會匡列的這些基金也要重視南部南部的這些新狀你這樣講他們好好好重視我數字給你看嘛有沒有成果數字會說話"},{"start":10248.038,"end":10269.335,"text":"所以我希望啊你們最好是國發基金掉落一半的能力到高雄成立辦公室我們還有男伴嘛如果解凍之後我覺得這個辦公室水沒問題能力也沒問題啊你要拿出決心來你看新莊那麼多全部都在在北部資源相對比較多你從事的管道比較多資源比較豐富你還全部放在"},{"start":10271.986,"end":10298.48,"text":"換寡也換不均啦 不均也換不公平我們一定會讓人部的服務中心發揮他應有的功能你現在目前規劃是派一位創投工會的人去喔我們應該不是喔我了解是這樣 我比你更清楚啦 郭副主委新創啊 需要福祉新創需要法律來支援產創條例在我剛剛召委的時候通過 對不對我雖不滿意 但是還有精進空間"},{"start":10300.472,"end":10328.442,"text":"包括有更多 包括這個部分是應該是經濟部的業務的船上鐵路我希望說能夠有更多的這個優惠包括租稅穿透率 適用的門檻這需要跟財政部結合這個處理另外企業購併新創能不能納入投資底檢這個也應該給他一些輔導所以你那個新創的這個投資人越來越少因為你沒有給他這個土壤你沒有給他環境 他就不會投入新創嘛"},{"start":10329.382,"end":10346.865,"text":"這次產創條例裡面也有這次產創條例裡面也有對新創有一些這次不是我修法 是我通過的嘛二讀發言只有我在嘛這個法律是我主審的所以我希望我下回期我再重新針對產創條例不足的部分 我再重新體驗"},{"start":10348.327,"end":10359.917,"text":"包括我剛剛說的租稅穿透率適用門檻新創年限的定義要再調整所得額的抵檢優惠對象跟上限也要做調整這一點 國務長您支持嗎支持 好"},{"start":10364.434,"end":10393.308,"text":"部長支持 因為這個法案是在經濟部主導我希望到時候跨部會協調包括財政部 包括國會都要充分支持我們讓下一步的 下一會期的修法讓廠商條例能夠更完整提供新創產業更完整 更優質的一個投資環境是的 我們全力支持這第一趴第二趴這個海水淡化廠很重要大部分是離島"},{"start":10395.046,"end":10422.399,"text":"那現在這個新竹跟高雄新竹跟台南因為這個台南園區高科技的需求所以需要用這個海淡廠海淡廠我曾經在蔡英文總統時代把台中臨時海淡廠把他設備遷到新達電廠鐵電新達電廠隔壁做一個臨時海淡廠的一個一個一個處所他提供的這個水啊"},{"start":10424.965,"end":10451.465,"text":"這個海水淡化水我喝過可以喝它可以提供民生醫用水 必要的時候稍微減減啦蔡總統也有喝所以它不僅能夠提升提供民生醫用水也可以提供什麼這個產業醫用水原先規劃10萬噸那時候賴建信當署長的時候我一直在討論一直在滾動檢討我一直關心這個問題 也是我提案"},{"start":10452.506,"end":10469.074,"text":"本來沒這幾個 本來是台南三省長寧我邀請要認識一下所以把台中那個搬來北高雄你現在要設置永久性的海淡廠你要跟地方有充分的溝通得到地方同意你不能因為海淡廠設置之後把一個漁村產業把石斑魚的故鄉給毀了"},{"start":10473.752,"end":10495.126,"text":"你現在整個在延安 延安有LNG 中游有LNG廠也有旁邊的這個新達電廠 你要加上一個永安這個再生水廠一個一萬多人的一個區域 也有三個廠在那邊而且大部分是養殖餘溫啦 酒瓣是在故鄉的你這樣佔15公頃 人要怎麼做溫啊"},{"start":10500.106,"end":10522.142,"text":"所以今天你的地點的選擇很重要我是支持要蓋在那個海水淡化廠但是你要去為了選擇你要讓我知道啊所以我竟然是最後一位才知道理事長跟我說我說我怎麼不知道這個計畫我不是原先是在協定興大電廠裡面嗎他們已經規劃好十萬噸了"},{"start":10526.328,"end":10554.475,"text":"那怎麼變成到永安來的原來是那個計畫改成地點 改到永安我不用這個案子是我提議才會有這個海水台灣廠設在北高雄我希望你們來檢討是不是能夠多一點尊重這樣我是最後一位才知道我怎麼對我的鄉親交代我們會改善所以這個區位已經得到地方上極大的反彈"},{"start":10555.526,"end":10583.68,"text":"你們區會重新選擇你要得到地方的共識我才能讓你繼續推下去如果因為鱷魚海灘場你毀滅一個漁村我死了就不會接受所以今天很嚴肅的問題這是他們生存權的問題我最後是在知道我不在意啦但是我希望不要在這種情況發生我覺得行政立法部門充分的溝通"},{"start":10585.134,"end":10611.087,"text":"你在我的選區蓋那麼大的工程換地點我竟然不知道這個有點詭異現在還不是農曆七月另外東南亞台商在印度跟菲律賓這個菲律賓我想國務長您也很熟我希望可以再加強在菲律賓的佈局你看印度它的國內市場"},{"start":10612.691,"end":10640.216,"text":"很大所以我們是不是包括你看以前田鴻茂院長他做黨會裡面說南向國家裡面東南亞國際裡面印度跟菲律賓不然從關稅未來可能演變或者他市場我覺得他他認為這是一個非常有潛力所以我們要加強力道針對菲律賓跟印度輔導協助我們台在原來的東南亞台商在這邊能夠有更多生產聚落"},{"start":10642.35,"end":10666.864,"text":"是因為我來經濟部以後就推動這個境外關內的這個想法那政府當然會在這個找到一個合適的地點以後啊那讓這個已經在新南向的地區的廠商幫他們能夠開始做一些產業的集結那這個產業集結以後啊那麼政府給一些關照那我想這樣子會提升他們的競爭力好那請"},{"start":10669.345,"end":10695.911,"text":"這個部長經濟部拿出具體的作為針對這兩個國家有更多的輔導作為是 我也提出來最後30秒再請教高副主委就是就業金卡這個相關有一些的法規你必須要去重視是那有YouTuber因為他因為非法工作要採取被移民署禁止入國但是他禁止入國管制期間他又收到就業金卡他拿這個就業金卡又來入境"},{"start":10697.852,"end":10705.107,"text":"這個部分是行政作業跟法規適用會引起爭議跟漢格這個部分你們有沒有什麼你們有沒有知道這個問題要怎麼去彌補來 處長"},{"start":10709.891,"end":10733.951,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢有關這個案子其實我們有跟移民署這邊做了解確實是移民署在審查的過程之中沒有去檢視到說所以是移民署的問題啊就是在核發簽證核發那個就是就業金卡最後一關的時候沒有查證到說他有一些簽錢被禁止入境的這樣的一個情況"},{"start":10734.671,"end":10759.176,"text":"所以這個行政書是你要規則移民署沒有 我們這個部分我們後續也會再加強加強整個 橫向的聯繫很重要不完全是移民署移民署絕對是照章去做審核一定是因為法規上面是不是有不足或者有遺漏之處我希望你們最快速度跟移民署再做一個協調避免類似的狀況再發生好 謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝趙偉"},{"start":10766.053,"end":10773.776,"text":"這個我不敢苟同好謝謝邱志偉委員來下一位請張家俊委員質詢謝謝趙偉我想請這個經濟部郭部長還有我們的高副主委"},{"start":10788.876,"end":10810.401,"text":"國務部長立法院呢在2025年的5月13號三讀修正通過了我們這個核子反應器的施管制辦法設施管制辦法第6條修正案那賦予呢核電廠研議跟重啟的這個法律依據那之前呢你也曾表示過如果修法通過"},{"start":10811.001,"end":10816.889,"text":"那政府會在這個法規框架下來行事那請問經濟部是否已經開始研擬啟動研議的評估作業了呢"},{"start":10822.057,"end":10841.854,"text":"報告委員我想對於這個核管法的部分我想大家必須要先設置一個法來先就安全的部分我們已經通過了我們這個核子反應器的設施管理管制辦法第六條修正案已經賦予核電廠研議或重啟的法律依據"},{"start":10846.158,"end":10850.101,"text":"那你一直在講的核安然後核廢料社會共識等等有關於核安其實台灣的核電常年在IAEA國際評鑑中都是名列前茅如果這樣的機組都不算安全的話還有誰能夠過關呢"},{"start":10864.412,"end":10881.803,"text":"是 報告委員我想這個是通過了母法我們現在還缺乏那個執法可以執行的執法所以我們現在就是要讓整安會趕快把執法送出來然後讓台電可以根據這個執法下去去落實這樣"},{"start":10883.285,"end":10886.909,"text":"經濟部的部分呢經濟部是贊成樂觀集成這兩個前提然後三個原則我想這個就是核安的部分已經應該是不用再討論了應該我們算是安全就要趕快把執法執法落實然後台電根據這個執法去檢測"},{"start":10902.486,"end":10912.969,"text":"那三個原則我想還是一樣大家都非常清楚就是核安沒問題核廢料可以處理那全民有公事那核廢料就是甘氏儲存潮的計畫已經早啟動現在就是可能2025年就會完成了那系統設計的壽命為50年那甘廚做到了應該是核廢料也有解了"},{"start":10924.392,"end":10933.102,"text":"那社會共識的部分非常多的這個民調包括最近的禁新聞的民調都顯示說有過半的民眾55%以上的民眾都贊成所以這應該也算是社會共識所以研議的三個要件實際上都已經"},{"start":10943.695,"end":10956.3,"text":"已經具備了唯一沒有準備好的就是政策執行的勇氣啊那希望說這個部長要拿出你這個霸道總裁的這個霸氣啊趕快讓他實行啊讓我們的這個產業比較安定下來安心說我會有穩定供電啊"},{"start":10963.344,"end":10985.922,"text":"謝謝委員就這一部分我想公部門必須要依法依規來處理那我剛才跟您報告我們母法通過了謝謝您但是我們現在趕快要把執法羅列出來然後大家按照法的框架之下大家努力的快速的把這件事情給完成那也拜託部長再從旁"},{"start":10987.243,"end":11001.463,"text":"加速讓他們可以加速前進趕快你的關心我想一定會給他們增添很多的這個火力啦那另外講到火力我必須要講一下就是今天很多人問的核三廠5月17日"},{"start":11003.766,"end":11020.375,"text":"停機三天才停機三天5月20號去年9月操作許可證就到齊的新達3號4號燃煤機組就啟動了加入電網這個是否屬實呢那我是不是請這個我們台電跟你回應一下好"},{"start":11022.165,"end":11050.644,"text":"是 跟委員報告喔 興達它的許可雖然到期了但是它還沒有到初一興達的3號機是今年底才初一然後4號機是明年底那許可到期之後台電有跟昭雄市政府提出這個許可的審查演繹它不能在審查中審查中你就可以自己脫開啦當時在這個興達更新改建的環評裡面其實當時就有承諾這個興達的3號 4號機在被轉容量低於8%以下的時候它可以運轉"},{"start":11051.61,"end":11076.694,"text":"是 那我可不可以再跟部長講一下這就是我想要指出的就是現在我們的政府對於延役這兩個字根本就是雙重標準新達三號機 四號機早就已經沒有操作許可證了也不在常態的機組名單之上但是只要有缺電危機這些機組就可以立即起死回生重新啟用 上網發電請問一下部長 這樣算不算延役呢"},{"start":11079.815,"end":11083.037,"text":"有經過新的許可嗎 他在審查中就可以拿出來用了還是只要用電不夠的時候他們內部決定說 應急就可以立即上線了呢因為還在審查中嘛 是吧所以在那個環境裡面是被允許的啦就反觀核電不但機組狀態良好而且運轉穩定這個安全評鑑屢獲國際認同然後原班人馬原班體系都在結果現在連研議的"},{"start":11109.875,"end":11118.482,"text":"法都過了 你們現在還在想要說執法啊等等啊 我是覺得說是不是喔 應該不要再繼續雙標下去了趕快把你們拿新大電廠的這種喔 魄力拿來啟用河山廠這樣好不好 我們部長"},{"start":11126.495,"end":11144.769,"text":"大家一起努力好 謝謝那我是不是可以再問一下我們這個高副主委就是我們賴總統前幾天有表示國家應該要成立這個主權基金那請問一下國發會現在的 持的態度為何呢我們遵照行政院協議的"},{"start":11147.117,"end":11170.518,"text":"結果那現在台灣雖然沒有主權基金但是過去央行也曾說我們的四大基金勞保勞退國民年金跟退府基金雖然沒有主權基金之名但有主權基金之實那國發會的這個國發基金也有類似的功能您認為未來主權基金跟我們四大基金的投資邏輯上會有什麼大不同嗎"},{"start":11171.919,"end":11201.199,"text":"基本上所謂的四大基金比較是財務型操作的基金那我們國發基金是屬於策略投資型的基金那國際間的主權基金這兩種形態都有會是這個國家的它是要達到的政策性的目標來定那我們未來主權基金是會採取什麼樣的形態來設置目前還在研議當中所以還不是很清楚那有關於這個台灣的主權基金成立的裁員呢"},{"start":11202.36,"end":11215.974,"text":"也是在研議當中 國際間有財政盈餘 外匯存底還有他們自然資源的收益那有可能發債嗎當然是有可能就是不排除預計的發債對象跟他的規模"},{"start":11218.737,"end":11232.284,"text":"都還在研議當中都還在研議當中那所以意思就是說在總統說之前是沒有縝密的規劃的不是 應該是說我們都有各我們都有一些國際間的我們都有研議過"},{"start":11235.045,"end":11257.152,"text":"國際間的基本的做法那我們基本上我們也有模擬如果國內要推動的時候我們可以採取什麼樣的做法可是基本上因為之前的討論大家都就是在今年以前的這些討論其實沒有太多的共識那現在總統已經決定要宣誓要成立的時候呢那我們就會就中間可行的做法適合我們國內的情況我們來嚴厲一些具體的"},{"start":11259.733,"end":11280.067,"text":"策略跟方向當然啊這個均無細言既然總統說了要做就是一定要做那但是呢我們也希望說做的時候一定要多參考一些其他國家的例子當然新加坡的模式很多人都提起那但是呢也不是沒有失敗的例子像挪威的主權基金第一季就高達"},{"start":11281.308,"end":11285.391,"text":"這虧損高達新台幣1.3兆元那我們希望說這個主權基金給這個國發會一點建議可以帶回去跨部會溝通第一就是一定要設立專法然後設計的制度絕對不能倉促上路那第二呢主權基金應該由獨立的法人運作由這個政府產業界跟學界共組"},{"start":11305.543,"end":11321.902,"text":"不要變成政治人事化人事政治化確保投資的專業性那未來呢也希望說這個推動主權基金的這個過程國發會不要只是配合的單位要去扮演這個設定制度的設計制度的這個領頭單位謝謝"},{"start":11324.765,"end":11327.186,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部郭部長跟國發會高副主委"},{"start":11354.311,"end":11380.252,"text":"謝謝我們請部長跟副處委謝謝委員好部長我想這個NVIDIA黃仁勳那他宣告了要在台灣來做他的海外總部那這個海外總部我想代表了一個意義除了說他是一個NVIDIA在台灣落地要在這裡"},{"start":11381.293,"end":11408.256,"text":"開始發展他的事業之外最重要的是黃仁勳他講的他未來NVIDIA已經不是只是一個科技公司他會變成AI的基礎設施公司哇 這個宣告就很大了因為所謂AI的基礎設施他包括說從過去傳統的CPU之外以後我們的要發展更多的GPU TPU甚至我們要有更好的儲存系統過去都是卡在電腦裡面"},{"start":11409.557,"end":11427.405,"text":"現在可能要透過雲端的儲存來有更多的網路的運算而且這個運算必須要高寬頻必須要低延遲這都是整個AI基礎設施最關鍵的地方實際上黃仁勳做這樣的一個宣告之後我馬上就注意到5月19號"},{"start":11429.481,"end":11443.836,"text":"馬來西亞他也馬上宣告他要以華為的晶片為核心然後發展所謂馬來西亞國家級的AI基礎設施所以看起來馬來西亞大概就是他也有他的一個"},{"start":11444.637,"end":11467.608,"text":"整體的戰略的佈局而且這個戰略佈局大概會跟黃仁勳在台灣要組的AI基礎設施這看起來就有點壁壘分明了因為我們黃仁勳NVIDIA是以台積電的晶片為主所以部長你怎麼看這樣國際情勢這樣世界科技的競爭那台灣未來的一個角色呢是啊 報告委員我想這個全球來看"},{"start":11470.269,"end":11484.536,"text":"在AI的這個領域裡面當然最大的就是美國那中國的AI當然是在目前來看排名是第二名那華為當然是中國最大的半導體機構那今天這個"},{"start":11487.598,"end":11504.856,"text":"黃榮勳先生來台灣那麼建立他的這個這個大的這個基地啊海外的基地在台北主要是看上我們的人才主要是看上台灣的這個人才以及台灣在這個半導體供應鏈充分的這樣的一個架構那我相信這個馬來西亞他站在這個這個"},{"start":11510.672,"end":11540.032,"text":"對立面啦可以講說他對立面當然就跟壁壘分明了嘛一個是以華為晶片為主的一個我們NVIDIA是以台積電的晶片啦這個就有一點是不一樣的走向了所以現在就是競爭的開始欸競爭的開始但是我們台灣呢是這個A組加A組啦齁那他們是這個B組加B組我們台灣有最強的整個AI的供應鏈嘛都在台灣所以我們是最強的一組啊但是我覺得在這個時候我們經濟部很重要"},{"start":11540.792,"end":11554.868,"text":"部長我們是不是要當黃仁勳未來在台灣整體布局的一個靠山這沒問題吧我們現在不僅是做NVIDIA的靠山我們是做台積電的靠山"},{"start":11556.17,"end":11572.231,"text":"台積電的靠山台積電是世界最強的半導體公司沒有錯由台積電製造出來的晶片支持全球所有的AI的伺服器那麼這個算力基本上來自於AI伺服器的精算的能耐"},{"start":11572.952,"end":11592.61,"text":"我相信沒有世界沒有任何一個地方可以比台灣更優秀可以比台灣更優秀所以可以看得出來當他把這個研發中心跟運作中心設立在台北的時候世界各地的數位牧民大概也會聚集到來數位牧民嘛對所以現在我們也要處理這個"},{"start":11594.031,"end":11600.698,"text":"外國人才的一個讓他招攬進來那也是強調怎麼讓數位慕名讓他可以很快速的落腳台灣這個都要做但是我還有幾個方向事實上我在這裡提出一些看法我覺得部長應該要來參考第一就是我們在發展AI基礎設施這個很多是科技產業自己要跳下去做那政府可以做什麼第一個就是在"},{"start":11618.894,"end":11627.597,"text":"在這個租稅上的一個優惠讓這些科技產業更有競爭力這是第一個第二個因為馬來西亞他結合華為晶片要發展他們國家級的這個AI基礎設施我們台灣呢"},{"start":11633.8,"end":11651.199,"text":"台灣一樣要面對這件事情那所以我們這一次跟美國的一個談判在這90天中我們必須要盯緊馬來西亞的稅率跟我們稅率的差距不要因為稅率的差距變成我們未來在做競爭時候的一些小劣勢"},{"start":11652.219,"end":11668.065,"text":"是的,我會參考這個委員的訊息所以盯緊馬來西亞他們跟美國的關稅台灣這一點一定要注意好是的那第三個就是說因為黃仁勳有講他說他所需要的晶片"},{"start":11668.985,"end":11686.321,"text":"就是台積電COWAS的晶片尤其現在最新的COWAS L所以黃仁勳都講了說他想像不到除了COWAS以外沒有其他選擇這是黃仁勳講的那我們也知道現在整個COWAS的一個佈局在嘉義的科學園區正在"},{"start":11687.141,"end":11703.01,"text":"大概今年九月第一個廠就好了所以整個台積電COWAS的布局跟未來黃仁勳所要發展的AI基礎設施他在台灣的NVIDIA的未來的帝國的一個產生這一個COWAS的一個基地就很重要"},{"start":11703.47,"end":11719.62,"text":"那所謂KOWAS,嘉義這個嘉科的KOWAS又來自於高雄台南他們生產的一個晶片所以這部分就要講給國發會聽所以就是說怎樣把整個南部交通的串聯有夠重要"},{"start":11720.22,"end":11741.821,"text":"所以我們在說的高鐵橋下的道路台37線怎麼把所謂S郎大S郎大再擴大到嘉義這一段就是連接到了把所有的科學園區透過一條產業道路直接把它串聯起來這件事就很要緊加速加速這一條產業道路的建設第二個"},{"start":11742.895,"end":11763.422,"text":"第二個因應未來NVIDIA在台灣要建立帝國要有很多科技的人才國際的人才要來台灣國際的人才要來台灣但是台灣的空運不管是客運或是貨運太過依賴桃園機場尤其是在貨運的部分95.9%的貨運都是依賴桃園機場"},{"start":11771.377,"end":11780.144,"text":"第二個高雄小館機場才佔1.79%所以你可以想像 萬不幸地在通往機場停車的時候他們的飛機又出現一些小狀況他們如果停車 我這裡的東西跑不進來"},{"start":11786.262,"end":11812.384,"text":"所以我們現在要趕快打造台灣另外一個以貨運為中心以貨運為概念的國際機場這件事我覺得這當然不是經濟部經濟部應該站在整個科技產業的佈局這件事應該在你們在行政院會報的時候都必須要拿出來講那國發會則無盤帶你們必須要趕快去建造台灣的貨運那不能夠單單"},{"start":11814.426,"end":11834.797,"text":"依賴桃園機場一間來著好不好來我們現在了解的程度是交通部在高雄推動雙港高雄在推動雙港但是高雄空港跟高雄海港沒有錯沒有錯這個都是一些計畫所以既然有這些計畫要怎麼加速那如果高雄因為又有宵禁的問題是不是還有其他地點來選擇這都要經維討論是"},{"start":11837.318,"end":11864.135,"text":"好不好 當然我們嘉義水上機場也是一個可以客戶啊 因為如果是以貨運為導向的我們並不是說這個要看客運來支撐 但是如果以貨運的話嘉義的水上機場也是一個考量的 因為剛剛就講的未來的NVIDIA晶片與CoreOS晶片沒有其他選擇那嘉義也是在這整個科技的世界大戰裡面我們佔有一席之地"},{"start":11865.496,"end":11876.241,"text":"整個政府 要來通盤的一個考量做NVIDIA 做台積電的後盾跟靠山 好不好是 謝謝委員吹詢好 謝謝謝謝昭偉謝謝部長 謝謝我們現在請羅廷威委員資訊來 請"},{"start":11901.311,"end":11910.73,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長來請部長先給我第一張看一下"},{"start":11913.781,"end":11932.106,"text":"好 部長好 部長想跟您先請問一下 我們看這則新聞核電機組陸續除役 台電證明台中的電廠 用煤量屢創新低那台電也間接的證明盧修煙任內空污排放比2016年降低76%對嗎台電對嗎 這你們的新聞稿"},{"start":11938.257,"end":11962.017,"text":"是 因為這個是台電跟台中市這種所以他在上任時有372億度那減去去年的272億度大概大降了超過100億度電 對嗎是好 那這個是我們現階段看到了台電間接承認我們台中市一直以來都在往減煤減排的方向在進行可是我們看下一張"},{"start":11964.093,"end":11988.671,"text":"部長我還要延續5月1號的質詢部長你還記得5月1號我們兩個之間的對話嗎當時我問你火力發電會不會達到100%將近100%然後你跟我講這個機率很小那你知道在4月27到5月10號的這兩週14天內有12天有佔比突破90%的有14天有8天超過98%"},{"start":11990.692,"end":12010.189,"text":"有五天超過99%有兩天超過100%相比部長告訴我台灣進入非核家園未來約84%電力將有火力發電支撐還沒進入非核家園的承諾就已經破功了嘛部長你怎麼回應"},{"start":12013.288,"end":12025.349,"text":"我看數字的這個顯示那如果委員認為這樣是火力全開我不反對又不反對這前幾天不是說沒有火力全開嗎"},{"start":12026.67,"end":12049.531,"text":"還是你要認為火力九成九開就是不叫火力全開可是我現在問你的問題是你當時告訴我84%支撐所謂的火力發電來支撐結果沒有啊事實證明都超過90%再來我那天也問你晚上無風無雨你告訴我所謂的機率很小"},{"start":12050.572,"end":12066.247,"text":"平均發電在87%但今天我要看我們下一張圖嘛核三二號機退役之後5月18到5月22每一個表格都是來自於台電的公開資料"},{"start":12067.335,"end":12077.88,"text":"退場之後每天夜間的火力佔比都超高深夜火力佔比常常都99%以上5月18 995月19 1045月20 1015月21 1025月22 102你告訴我平均用電量晚上夜間87%相距甚遠部長這個你怎麼回應鐵針針的數據啊是"},{"start":12097.079,"end":12123.373,"text":"那你有沒有覺得你應該為你的言論而道歉當時你就在這樣子的現場在國會的殿堂你講出這些數據完全沒有依據完全就是敷衍甜言蜜語來欺騙台中人你說87%嘛但現階段我們看到的數據全部最高達到102%那你要怎麼說你就是"},{"start":12124.249,"end":12139.052,"text":"在某個時段裡面是這個樣子的在某個時段裡面是這樣子平均值是這個樣子所以你還是在用平均值來算嘛那你中火更是火力全開我並沒有用平均值來算5月18中火10部燃煤機組一部稅休9部可以發4950我們現階段發電發到了4587超過9成"},{"start":12153.089,"end":12178.443,"text":"所以你現階段火力不是全開嗎九部燃煤機組九部都開你告訴我火力沒全開火力九層開算不算火力全開還是你要這邊站那一層一部是稅休你稅休你沒有開嘛你是因為稅休沒開不是因為你不開啊所以基本上已經是把最大用電的發電量將近把它全部"},{"start":12183.045,"end":12211.07,"text":"我想你應該要就事實來說我要再回到我們下一張圖剛剛我講的第一張圖片我們在說的我們現階段2016年到2024年我們一直努力減碳減排終於有了成效可是在最近我們看到台中電廠的用煤量是屢創新高這個圖表我相信你都看過了這是用煤量我們下一張圖"},{"start":12213.459,"end":12232.757,"text":"我們把去年5月14號跟今年5月14號來做對比慢慢往前推進到了去年的5月17到今年的5月17我們看出差距發電的總量我們的總和開始越來越高"},{"start":12233.973,"end":12251.78,"text":"台電官網上說友善降載還有環保限制的跳票就用台中人的費來泰帝啊減煤承諾就是現階段我們看到的完全跳票為了救電可以犧牲台中人的健康台中火力發電會不會達到100%部長你當時還是說機率很少嗎"},{"start":12255.982,"end":12260.684,"text":"對照數據郭部長就是睜眼說瞎話難道98 99不算接近100%嗎這說大話說習慣了搞不清楚狀況部長我必須要講你就是說謊你就是騙子"},{"start":12271.704,"end":12299.583,"text":"你現階段你就是98%的騙子但是我沒有說你是100%的騙子因為你認為98%不是趨近於100%嗎所以我們現階段火力發電常年為全台供電台中市就要承受PM2.5超標肺癌居高不下口口聲聲的減煤 以氣換煤還有發展綠能你就是要告訴全民你的非核家園就是火力家園"},{"start":12300.524,"end":12319.498,"text":"所以我要跟你講中火是全球最大最老舊的啞鈴界藍莓電廠什麼時候要除疫什麼時候要給台中人健康部長你可不可以回應還是你要再繼續說謊還是你死不承認部長上一次5月1號講到現在您今天選擇沉默以對嗎還是說不出來還是啞口無言"},{"start":12329.312,"end":12350.406,"text":"部長 可以給我一些回應嗎那你給我時間講嗎請說好 這個所有發電的內容都是我們跟台中市政府合議的框架之內的數字這樣你知道嗎現階段你口口聲聲說合議的框架內啦"},{"start":12351.383,"end":12374.481,"text":"但是我們看到的發電總和所以你的意思就是說是經過台中市政府同意所以台中市政府他發證照給你你就可以這樣子不斷的使用今天我們看到數字超標你推給台中市政府合議的框架然後拿這些甜言蜜語繼續告訴民眾沒有啊台中市同意啊這個是在合議的框架之內在運作"},{"start":12375.882,"end":12392.483,"text":"你當然會這樣講可是我現階段跟你講的是2025年拿2024年你明明可以進步你現階段就是退步你還在用合議的框架你還在用這些數據平均量來告訴台中人沒有啊我們有持續的減煤減炭"},{"start":12396.067,"end":12422.021,"text":"謝謝主席我要講的是台中人的健康不是給你這樣隨意糊弄台中人的健康是台中市政府允許的範圍之內喔允許的範圍我們希望你越來越好我們在做的生煤自治條例也被中央廢除我們都希望能夠持續的減煤減碳但是中央就是在其中杯葛尤其經濟部的錯誤能源政策造成台中人最後健康損失所以我們要再一次的抗議"},{"start":12422.621,"end":12445.337,"text":"台中人應該要站起來我們更呼籲經濟部重視台中人的健康好我們經濟部非常重視所有全國國人的健康好不好意思因為我下來你又在講話所以我要回應你你如果今天重視的話今天麻煩你把真正的發電量能夠降低而不是我們看到了跟去年來對比我們的發電量屢創新高好OK不要講了"},{"start":12450.714,"end":12471.536,"text":"再講我們等一下還要處理那個處理法案好那下一位請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們中午不休息就把今天議程處理完畢李坤城委員 李坤城委員 李坤城委員不在好下一位請徐富奎委員諮詢"},{"start":12481.412,"end":12499.386,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們郭部長還有能源署我們的代理署長跟台電的副總好請部長跟相關單位委員好 部長好剛剛聽了台中的這個羅衛原的講話 我想要討回他說"},{"start":12502.995,"end":12530.868,"text":"他們不要火力發電廠因為要犧牲台中人的健康但是他跟所有藍白委員竟然舉手支持河山廠繼續重啟研議犧牲我們屏東人的生命財產安全這有什麼邏輯啊 博定你認同這樣的論調嗎電不是我的專長所以各位委員的意見我們都尊重"},{"start":12532.346,"end":12549.993,"text":"好 部長 那我想我們核三廠二號基因在今年5月17號我們依法除役這個是我們照這個相關的法規 荷蘭種法的法規但是很遺憾的藍白委員藉由這個修改核管法甚至這個也藉由這個公投案"},{"start":12550.633,"end":12572.623,"text":"重啟了這個核三廠的一個恢復運轉的一個公投案用全國人的一個公投案來決定我們屏東人的這個生命財產的安全我個人非常不能夠接受了我想部長也是屏東人部長那賴總統也講得很清楚這個我們核電的議題政府會遵照兩個必須跟三個原則來審慎處理"},{"start":12574.346,"end":12591.382,"text":"那第一個就是核安會必須依據依法來訂定一個安全審查的一個程序第二個台電也必須依這個程序自主評估有沒有重啟的條件跟成本的效應那三個原則更重要的就是要核安無虞核非料有解社會共識部長"},{"start":12593.644,"end":12610.965,"text":"就經濟部的立場目前會遵照這個原則來做處理嗎是的一定的一定喔部長那我想我們大家都在關心這個目前這個運轉40年的這個河山廠的機組到底能不能安全運轉我想請台電的副總目前你們的評估狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":12613.849,"end":12637.627,"text":"跟委員報告即便全世界所有的核能機組有研議運轉了40年都必須要停下來做所有的神聖的安全的檢查之後核廢料你們可以處理嗎現在核三廠的燃料池的漆子也將近滿了我們預估如果它即便能夠再重新再重啟的話大概只能夠維持大概是3到4年左右的空間而已"},{"start":12637.947,"end":12658.582,"text":"是啊所以我在這邊還是要要求我們經濟部跟台電相關單位那我要講清楚啦不要隨著這個藍白立委一定要亂講那我們的回答總是似是而非我覺得這樣非常的不負責任我們到底未來這個走向要怎麼樣我們都尊重這樣一個機制運作但是呢不是藉由一個"},{"start":12659.665,"end":12686.204,"text":"隨便一個公投其他公共就會要重啟我覺得我們不能夠接受這樣的論調那部長我想剛剛很多委員都在關心我們的能源政策那我知道部長都很用心所以我想我們還是希望能夠積極去發展再生能源這一塊我想這部長應該也是一直在努力但是目前我們的2025年要達到的20%的比例目前大概有些許的一個落後未來我們怎麼樣來積極來努力"},{"start":12687.845,"end":12699.681,"text":"是 報告委員 我想我們從這個再生能源四個構面去努力包括風電 包括太陽能 包括水力 包括地熱所以我們會在2026年的11月來達標再生能源20%"},{"start":12705.868,"end":12730.369,"text":"但是我還是要提醒部長因為我們有些的案子都必須跨部會來整合包含農電也好、漁電也好甚至這個風力發電很多的案子但是跨部會整合上面我們總是聽到有些界面上處理上各部會有各部會的想法跟堅持所以造成這個推進上有一些的阻礙那部長是不是可以承諾來協助解決這些問題我們現在在加強做這個協商"},{"start":12733.411,"end":12750.465,"text":"包括在農電的部分包括在漁電的部分這個太陽能所以我們可能會先在這個屏東有一部分的這個希望能夠把光電趕快那邊有比較大的這個不是耕種的地我們會優先在那邊"},{"start":12753.154,"end":12771.591,"text":"因為它是不適合耕種的所以我們是優先在那邊建立這個地面型的這個光電是部長那我最後還是要提醒一個問題就是我們國內的太陽能的業者他們發現了中國大陸用洗產地的方式藉由東南亞把這個太陽能的模組進來到台灣"},{"start":12773.653,"end":12796.088,"text":"經濟部有掌握這樣的資訊嗎?我們有掌握,完全不允許紅色供應鏈的模組進來部長,我們掌握到一個訊息2022年從東南亞進口的產品不到10%到2024年變成50%今年一到二月就80幾%了這非常的恐怖啊我們現在會禁止他們使用"},{"start":12797.045,"end":12804.793,"text":"那針對這樣子的我們有什麼樣的一個強制的一個緊急防衛罪的一個機制來做處理嗎是有"},{"start":12807.594,"end":12828.165,"text":"我們有防止他們的就是說我們美國有美國針對這樣的他們有科與高關稅的一個防衛稅的機制我們會這個禁止他們使用然後海關也會查核一旦查到了一旦查到了第一次罰款60萬第二次300萬第三次取消這個進口的這個執照部長最後還是要提醒"},{"start":12829.886,"end":12851.848,"text":"這個有中國大陸用假外資來投資來投入我們台灣的一些案子我們必須要嚴重徹查這是國安危機啊是這一部分我們會要求投資師嚴格的審查尤其藉由東南亞國家的一個假外資他們甚至用這樣的方式包裝之後進來投尤其針對我們一些公家軍事設施的部分"},{"start":12852.268,"end":12868.441,"text":"報告委員 這個我們都有掌握啦有掌握啦我們會看他後面的這個他的結構他的資金結構跟他的股東結構好 不等 謝謝是 謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝徐富奎委員那下一位請徐欣盈委員質詢"},{"start":12879.792,"end":12882.714,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請郭部長請郭部長委員好部長好部長在您這個去年上任之前立法院有通過就去年的5月2號立法院有通過一個中小企業發展條例部分條文的修正草案"},{"start":12905.45,"end":12920.379,"text":"那他內容主要精神就是在於我們鼓勵中小企業能夠給員工加薪然後可以來扣抵他的所得這個盈利事業所得中來扣除就是所謂的"},{"start":12921.139,"end":12946.43,"text":"員工加薪企業減稅的這樣的一個通過這樣的一個法案那到現在剛好滿一年了所以本席想藉由今天來了解就是說我們經濟部有沒有在掌握這麼好的這種立法這個美意是不是有掌握以及我們在社會上實施的成效怎麼樣我們全國58萬個中小企業現在的情況如何"},{"start":12950.151,"end":12970.284,"text":"是報告委員我們會等今年的報完稅以後會來跟財政部要這些資料來確認他們是不是有按照這樣的一個法可以來落實那這個法案通過之後有沒有一些宣傳或者是一些激勵的一些措施跟做法我們中小"},{"start":12972.287,"end":12994.159,"text":"我們有辦了17場的說明會那也透過工協會去推動讓這些中小微企業但是因為中小微企業我想有一部分可能就是因為這個加數太多了我們有大概167萬家的但是你透過那個工協會或組織這樣下去其實大家應該在業內大家應該也會知道啦"},{"start":12994.759,"end":13004.105,"text":"有一些微型的企業可能他們比較難以跟這個工協會互動也許有一部分的人他不太清楚有發函嗎沒有我們現在因為我們微型的企業大概就是這種30人以下的這個企業其實"},{"start":13013.72,"end":13031.836,"text":"很難啦上上下下很難不過我們都是努力在跟他們溝通也告訴他們有這樣的一個福利因為這一個我想這個部分我們經濟部這個實施起來不困難但是用心的做其實也是對民眾來說對他們來說也是對我們這個經濟部他們也會有很好的觀感我們通過這麼好的法"},{"start":13040.524,"end":13047.665,"text":"有沒有掌握就是說當然這個今年報稅完之後你有明確的數據那你們的掌握度大概如何"},{"start":13051.007,"end":13072.99,"text":"我們當然不會說一直等到9月這個數字拿到了因為我們認為能夠早一點加惠給這些中小微企業我們當然會全面的努力去做所以我們現在今年因為關稅的政策我們現在對中小微企業直接的給他們的協助"},{"start":13073.73,"end":13100.346,"text":"其實我們是做得非常的深我們從利用AI的學習來提升他們的效益然後利用ASCO來幫助他們降低成本所以這裡面包括很多包括也是一樣我們會跟他們介紹這些我們政府對中小微企業給他們哪一些福祉我想這一部分會擴大擴大讓他們知道這樣的一個生活"},{"start":13101.006,"end":13118.467,"text":"因為這個立法的美意我們希望是真的能夠加惠到對我們企業中小企業甚至我們一千萬的勞工我希望他們都可以有感但是最後一點就是說我們也不得不去預防就是有一些"},{"start":13119.728,"end":13139.251,"text":"这个可能企业他会不会利用模糊的加薪的定义透过会计的这个操作来获得减税优惠但实际上劳工并没有拿到增加的这样的薪资这个部分我们要请经济部这里也要特别的来注意是是谢谢委员垂询好OK"},{"start":13139.591,"end":13163.49,"text":"好謝謝徐欣盈委員那下一位請呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員不在好最後一位是黃國昌委員好請黃委員謝謝主席麻煩有請經濟部部長以及地礦中心的主任還有台龐公司的代表好來請相關單位委員好"},{"start":13181.953,"end":13191.119,"text":"三位好 實際的關係不一問今天有問題比較具體一點所以部長如果不熟的話請台堂或是請地方國中心待會回答我沒有問題是 謝謝"},{"start":13193.482,"end":13212.215,"text":"之前我一直在追這個台龐的弊案國營事業的董事長拿來酬庸已經很扯了結果給你當國營事業的董事長胡搞瞎搞搞到納稅人賤賣國營事業的土地我講的就是無乃人賤賣國營事業的土地結果呢結果現在判刑確定了"},{"start":13222.048,"end":13244.309,"text":"官也官出來了問題是啊 欠納稅的錢啊 要還這為什麼我從去年就開始追啊你敢這樣胡搞瞎搞啊每一分每一毛啊 全部都要給我要回來所以我一直在追我們的台堂到底有沒有積極的去追討上一次我跟你們在討論的時候說沒辦法啊"},{"start":13247.915,"end":13257.219,"text":"我們就請他查 我們查不到他的財產啊那大碎人很困惑啊沒有財產出入club聊宇宙大爆炸奢侈晚宴開BMW7系列這什麼 這什麼跟什麼啊這社會還有基本的公平正義嗎還是只要有權有勢"},{"start":13276.598,"end":13299.7,"text":"我撈夠了 我撈飽了 納稅很了得 關我什麼事啊給皮皮啊所以我才要台堂啊 好好去追蹤啊我之前有建議你們啦 說依照強制執勤法的規定 命他據實報告財產狀況這件事台堂後來有沒有做有那個台中地院"},{"start":13301.493,"end":13329.959,"text":"台中的地院已經在3月25號的時候有請這個三位的要說出他的財產3月20號 今年3月20號嘛對 今年3月25 然後4月20號先停一下啦我們一樣一樣來嘛啊為什麼今年3月25才要他拒之報告財產狀況台中地院在幹嘛 在混喔欠多久啦等到在國會質詢啊台中地院才忽然想起來強制執行法怎麼規定啊"},{"start":13331.577,"end":13354.077,"text":"強制執行法不熟幹什麼民事執行處的法官啊不是啦我請你們去做的事你們有去做我就不會為難你聽得懂嗎我上次質詢的時候就問你們嘛有沒有要求法院命他報告財產狀況嘛那現在法院終於命他報告財產狀況了嘛報告的結果是什麼"},{"start":13359.642,"end":13378.034,"text":"包委員 這個吳乃人等人並沒有回報啦蛤 等一下提一下法院要吳乃人報告財產狀況 吳乃人沒有回報蛤 現在吳乃人是覺得怎麼樣法院要他報告財產狀況 他也給批批啊真的覺得自己是皇親國戚喔台中地院要求吳乃人報告財產狀況 吳乃連人甩都不甩台中地院接下來要做什麼事"},{"start":13389.92,"end":13404.007,"text":"台中地院是有什麼樣的動作我們不太清楚我們後來4月24號的時候我們台中就有給吳乃仁一封函要請他趕快歸還這個財產4月30號的時候我們台中已經有具體的請台中地院向台中法院要管收這三位"},{"start":13414.465,"end":13441.965,"text":"你有申請要管收無乃人了嘛管收的理由是什麼管收的理由是什麼沒有據實報告財產狀況要他報告連報告都不報告台中地方法院裁了沒有沒關係啊我們靜候靜候台中地方法院的判斷主席再一分鐘再一題就好了可以嗎好謝謝來請地礦中心"},{"start":13446.189,"end":13469.574,"text":"那個喔 我3月的時候有跟你們講 那個馬槽啊 在那邊噴煙啊然後你們答應我馬上要封 所以我親自跑一趟然後我親自去現場了以後 你們跟我說封好了那結果 然後你也跟我說4月會完工那結果來來來 看一下 測到5月去測 還有氣體冒出有超過10ppm的硫化氫 這是旁邊的機器啊"},{"start":13470.299,"end":13495.085,"text":"所以現在狀況到底怎麼樣 這個還要拖多久包委員 現在我們正在跟養管處做水保的申請還要跟那個水保署一起來申請那個時間的關係 我最後只跟你們講重點第一個 我跟你們講這件事你們答應我要做 結果做到現在還有10ppm的硫化金我沒有住在那裡"},{"start":13496.65,"end":13513.175,"text":"但是有人住在那裡那裡也很多遊客三月跟你們講結果到現在還在冒有毒氣體拜託你們不管是你們自己還是那邊的承包商這個事情趕快處理好不好是可以喔可以好 謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌黃委員"},{"start":13521.357,"end":13537.49,"text":"好 我們現在登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員呂玉玲所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會那我們現在"},{"start":13539.552,"end":13567.052,"text":"來處理114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結等24案我們逐案處理第一案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有好沒有異議通過第二案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有好沒有異議通過第三案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有異議"},{"start":13567.853,"end":13590.788,"text":"好沒有異議通過第四案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過第五案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過第六案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過第七案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過"},{"start":13591.648,"end":13607.192,"text":"第八案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有沒有異議通過第九案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有沒有異議通過第十案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有"},{"start":13607.532,"end":13635.275,"text":"沒有意義通過第11案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有意義沒有沒有意義通過第12案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有意義沒有沒有意義通過第13案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有意義沒有沒有意義通過第14案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有意義沒有意義沒有意義通過第15案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有意義沒有"},{"start":13635.555,"end":13636.596,"text":"沒有異議 通過沒有異議 通過沒有異議 通過沒有異議 通過"},{"start":13659.855,"end":13686.934,"text":"第20案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有異議沒有異議通過第21案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有異議沒有異議通過第22案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有異議沒有異議通過第23案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有異議沒有異議通過第24案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有異議沒有異議通過"},{"start":13687.794,"end":13712.153,"text":"好那我們就做以下決議經濟部及所屬預算解凍案第一案自第24案均同意動之並擬據報告提報院會好那我們現在來處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會主管預算凍結等7案我們逐案處理第一案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有"},{"start":13713.214,"end":13740.584,"text":"沒有異議通過第二案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過第三案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過第四案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過第五案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過第六案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議通過"},{"start":13741.184,"end":13765.644,"text":"第七案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有沒有異議通過好我們也做以下決議國家發展委員會預算凍結案第一案至第七案均同意動之並擬均報告提報院會好那我們就預算解凍案就處理到現在那這個相關部會如果跟等一下第三案沒有關係的就可以自行離開"},{"start":13768.442,"end":13769.346,"text":"好 我們現在繼續進行討論事項請宣讀第三案"},{"start":13773.22,"end":13798.762,"text":"第三案 繼續審查 1 行政行情審議個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案2 本院委員王美惠等18人理據個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案3 本院委員羅廷懷等17人理據個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案4 本院委員李坤城等16人理據個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案5 本院委員郭怡情等19人理據個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案"},{"start":13799.563,"end":13810.837,"text":"6.本院委員陳廷飛等事項擬具個人資料保護法第12條、第27條及第48條條文修正法案7.本院委員蔡宜等事項擬具個人資料保護法部分條文修正法案宣讀完畢"},{"start":13816.136,"end":13835.477,"text":"討論事項所列議案經紀委員會在5月8日第12次會議已詢答完畢之後院會又交付本委員會提案版本有三案我們並案審查我們請提案委員說明提案要職那好這個"},{"start":13838.467,"end":13866.246,"text":"請陳情輝委員陳情輝委員就如書面提案要指那我的部分一樣是如我的書面提案要指就不另外再說明好那行政機關的書面報告請委員參閱並列入公報記錄那我們進行審查個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案我們現在開始進行廣泛討論那是否有要登記沒有登記發言的話"},{"start":13867.046,"end":13872.256,"text":"我們就請議事人員宣讀所有條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":13877.114,"end":13904.225,"text":"個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案行政院提案第一條之一本法之主管機關為個人資料保護委員會第一條之二中央及地方各級政府應致力配合推動達成本法立法目的之具體措施確保其所轄公務機關及所管非公務機關於執行職務及業務時遵守本法規定共同建構安全可信賴之個人資料保護環境"},{"start":13905.546,"end":13925.061,"text":"被落实个人资料保护相关事项,主管机关得召开个人资料保护政策推进会议,其运作方式及其他相关事项之办法由主管机关定之。第十二条,公务机关或非公务机关之息所保有之个人资料被窃取、篡改、毁损。"},{"start":13926.102,"end":13941.433,"text":"滅失或洩漏時應通知當事人前項情形符合一定通報範圍者公務機關或非公務機關應通報下列機關依公務機關向主管機關及依第21條之一第一項規定"},{"start":13942.013,"end":13959.453,"text":"收受其实施情形之机关通报二非公务机关向主管机关通报主管机关受理通报后并转之其目的事业主管机关第一项情形公务机关或非公务机关应采取及时有效之应变措施"},{"start":13960.865,"end":13989.324,"text":"防止事故之扩大及记载相关事实影响已采取之因应措施并保存相关记录已被主管机关查验前三项应通知或通报之内容方式实现与通报范围应变措施记录保存及其他相关事项之办法由主管机关定之第十八条公务机关应自个人资料保护长由机关首长指派适当人员兼任"},{"start":13990.144,"end":14000.435,"text":"並配置適當人力及資源負責統籌推動及督導考核本機關所屬或所監督公務機關之個人資料保護相關事務"},{"start":14001.843,"end":14021.11,"text":"公務機關應指定專人辦理個人資料檔案安全維護事項防止個人資料被竊取篡改毀損滅失或洩漏其安全維護管理機制應採取之措施及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之公務機關不得因所屬人員"},{"start":14021.73,"end":14038.563,"text":"依法執行個人資料保護職務而予以不利之處分或管理措施主管機關應妥善規劃推動第一項及第二項相關人員之職能訓練增進其個人資料保護專業職能第一項第二項相關人員之職長"},{"start":14039.884,"end":14067.138,"text":"只能条件、训练及其他相关事项之办法由主管机关定之第二十条之一非公务机关保有个人资料档案者应办理安全维护事项防止个人资料被窃取篡改、毁损、灭失或泄露前项个人资料档案安全维护事项管理机制应采取之措施及其他相关事项之办法由主管机关定之"},{"start":14067.978,"end":14096.246,"text":"第21條非公務機關違國際傳輸個人資料而有下列情形之一者主管機關得限制之一涉及國家重大利益二國際條約或協定有特別規定三接受國對於個人資料之保護未有完善之法規致有損當事人權益之餘四以迂迴方法向第三國地區傳輸個人資料規避本法"},{"start":14097.54,"end":14117.178,"text":"第三章之一行政監督第一节对公务机关之监督第二十一条之一公务机关应每年向上级机关或监督机关提出个人资料保护管理事项实施情形无上级机关或监督机关者依下列各款规定办理一总统府"},{"start":14117.778,"end":14137.737,"text":"國家安全會議及五院向主管機關提出二直轄市政府直轄市議會縣市政府縣市議會向主管機關提出三直轄市山地原住民區公所直轄市山地原住民區民代表會向直轄市政府提出鄉鎮市公所"},{"start":14138.737,"end":14162.353,"text":"鄉鎮市民代表會向縣政府提出公務機關應督導及集合其所屬所監督之公務機關所轄鄉鎮市公所直轄市山地原住民區公所及鄉鎮市民代表會直轄市山地原住民區民代表會之個人資料保護管理事項實施情形依前項規定集合後"},{"start":14162.953,"end":14183.352,"text":"发现受集合机关实施情形有缺失或待改善者受集合机关因向集合机关提出改善报告并由集合机关审查后连同集合结果送交主管机关集合机关或主管机关任有必要时得要求受集合机关进行说明或调整"},{"start":14183.932,"end":14208.587,"text":"前四项实施情形之必要内容 集合之频率 内容与方法 结果之交付改善报告之提出及其他相关事项之办法 由主管机关定之第21条之二 主管机关得定期或不定期集合公务机关之个人资料保护管理事项实施情形必要时得请求前条第二项锁定集合机关协助"},{"start":14209.187,"end":14223.878,"text":"依前項規定集合後發現受集合機關實施情形有缺失或待改善者受集合機關應提出改善報告送交依前條第一項規定收受其實施情形之機關審查後由該審查機關"},{"start":14226.73,"end":14243.48,"text":"送交主管機關前項審查機關或主管機關任有必要時得要求受集合機關進行說明或調整前三項集合之頻率內容與方法改善報告之提出及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":14244.62,"end":14262.201,"text":"依前条及本条参与集合之人员对于应执行集合所知悉或所持有资料不保密义务第21条之三公务机关有违反本法规定之余时主管机关得请公务机关提出资料及说明"},{"start":14262.748,"end":14281.038,"text":"或派員攜帶執行職務證明文件進行實地檢查除因法規規定有保密之必要者外公務機關及其相關人員有配合之義務前項實地檢查必要時得請求第21條之一第二項鎖定集合機關協助參與檢查之人員對於因"},{"start":14284.7,"end":14311.394,"text":"执行检查所知悉或持有之资料不保密义务第21条之四公务机关有违反本法规定之情势者由主管机关另期限其改正该公务机关应依限为适当之改正并应将改正情形以书面答复主管机关公务机关未依前项规定改正者主管机关得公布其名称及其违法情形"},{"start":14312.134,"end":14321.905,"text":"公務機關所屬人員未依本法規定辦理者應按其情節輕重依相關法令規定於懲戒懲處或處罰"},{"start":14324.502,"end":14341.453,"text":"第21條之五本節之規定於情報機關不適用之第二節對非公務機關之監督第22條主管機關任非公務機關有違反本法規定之餘或未檢視其落實本法情形而任有必要時"},{"start":14342.614,"end":14371.549,"text":"得依下列方式進行檢查一通知非公務機關或其相關人員陳述意見二通知非公務機關或其相關人員提供必要之文書資料物品或為其他配合措施三自行或會同中央目的事業主管機關直轄市縣市政府或其他有關機關派員攜帶執行職務證明文件進入檢查並得令相關人員為必要之說明"},{"start":14372.082,"end":14392.58,"text":"配合措施或提供相关证明资料前项检视落实本法情形检查作业之规划评估方式考量因素综合目的事业主管机关职辖市县市政府或有关机关之协力事项及其他相关事项之办法由主管机关定之"},{"start":14393.567,"end":14409.871,"text":"主管機關為第一項檢查時,對於得目錄或可為證據之個人資料或其檔案,得扣留或複製之對於應扣留或複製之物,得要求其所有人、持有人或保管人提出或交付"},{"start":14410.371,"end":14429.111,"text":"無正當理由拒絕提出交付或抗拒扣留或複製者得採取對該非公務機關權益損害最少之方法強制為之對於依第一項或前項所為之通知進入檢查或處分非公務機關及其相關人員"},{"start":14429.791,"end":14452.337,"text":"無正當理由不得規避妨礙或拒絕主管機關為第一項第三款檢查時得率同資訊電信法律或其他專業人員共同為之參與檢查之人員對於應執行檢查所知悉或持有之資料不保密義務並應注意被檢查者之名譽"},{"start":14453.197,"end":14479.249,"text":"第一項檢查之執行主管機關於必要時得請求中央目的事業主管機關直辖市縣市政府或其他相關機關構配合採取有效措施或提供協助第二三條對於前條第三項扣留物或複製物應加封間或其他標示並為適當之處置其不便搬運或保管者得命"},{"start":14480.109,"end":14508.432,"text":"得命人看守或交由所有人或其他適當之人保管扣留物或複製物以無留存之必要或決定不予處罰或為沒入之裁處者應發還之但因沒入或為調查他案應留存者不在此限第24條非公務機關物資所有人持有人保管人或利害關係人對前二條之要求強制扣留或複製行為不符者"},{"start":14509.173,"end":14536.327,"text":"得向主管機關聲明異議前向聲明異議主管機關認為有理由者應立即停止或變更其行為認為無理由者得繼續執行經該聲明異議之人請求時應將聲明異議之理由製作記錄交付之對於主管機關前向決定不符者僅得於對該案件之實體決定聲明不符時以並聲明之"},{"start":14537.045,"end":14555.542,"text":"但第一项之人依法不得对该案件之实体决定,声明不符时,得单独对第一项之行为进行提起行政诉讼。第25条,非公务机关有违反本法规定之情事者,主管机关除依本法规定,才处罚房外。"},{"start":14556.685,"end":14580.781,"text":"並得為下列處分1.禁止蒐集、處理或利用個人資料2.命令刪除經處理之個人資料檔案3.沒入或令銷毀違法蒐集之個人資料4.公布違法情形及其姓名或名稱與負責人主管機關為前項處分時應於防止違反本法規定情勢之必要範圍內"},{"start":14582.15,"end":14586.489,"text":"採取對該非公務機關權益損害最少之方法為之"},{"start":14587.827,"end":14610.342,"text":"第26條主管機關1第22條規定檢查後未發現有違反本法規定之情勢者經該非公務機關同意後得公布檢查結果第27條刪除第41條意圖為自己或第三人不法之利益或損害他人之利益而違反第6條第一項第15條第16條第19條第20條第一項規定"},{"start":14614.785,"end":14635.619,"text":"或依第21条限制国际传输之命令或处分足深损害于他人者处5年以下有期徒刑得并科新台币100万元以下罚金第47条非公务机关有下列情事之一者由主管机关处新台币5万元以上"},{"start":14636.786,"end":14662.593,"text":"50萬元以下罰款並令限期改正藉其未改正者按次處罰之一違反第6條第一項規定二違反第19條規定三違反第20條第一項規定四違反一第21條規定所為限制國際傳輸之命令或處分第48條非公務機關有下列情勢之一者由主管機關令其限期改正"},{"start":14663.103,"end":14675.46,"text":"借其未改正者按次处新台币2万元以上20万元以下罚还1.违反第8条或第9条规定2.违反第10条第11条或第13条规定"},{"start":14676.61,"end":14700.993,"text":"3.違反第十二條第一項或依第四項鎖定辦法中有關通知之內容、方式或實現之規定4.違反第二十條第二項或第三項規定非公務機關違反第十二條第二項、第三項或依第四項鎖定辦法中有關通報之內容、方式實現應變措施記錄保存之規定者"},{"start":14702.332,"end":14724.191,"text":"由主管機關儲新台幣2萬元以上20萬元以下罰還並另期限期改正借其未改正者按次處罰非公務機關有下列情勢之一者由主管機關儲新台幣2萬元以上200萬元以下罰還並另期限期改正借其未改正者按次儲新台幣15萬元以上1500萬元以下罰還"},{"start":14726.857,"end":14753.875,"text":"一違反第20條之一第一項規定二違反一第20條之一第二項鎖定辦法中有關個人資料檔案安全維護事項管理機制應採取措施之規定三為一第51條之一第三項訂定個人資料檔案安全維護計畫或業務終止後個人資料處理方法四違反第51條之一第四項"},{"start":14754.798,"end":14781.586,"text":"锁定办法中有关计划或处理方法应具备之内容执行方式或基准之规定非公务机关有前项各款情势之一其情节重大者由主管机关处新台币15万元以上1500万元以下罚还并令其限期改正借其未改正者按次处罚第49条非公务机关违反第22条第4项规定者"},{"start":14782.113,"end":14808.16,"text":"由主管機關處新台幣2萬元以上20萬元以下罰還第51條之一第22條第一項第三項至第7項第23條至第26條第47條至第50條鎖定對非公務機關之監督管理事項於主管機關成立之日起6年內得由主管機關報請行政院公告一定範圍之非公務機關"},{"start":14809.488,"end":14822.036,"text":"仍由中央目的事業主管機關或直轄市縣市政府管轄主管機關應每二年會商相關機關後報請行政院調整簡列前項公告鎖定一定範圍"},{"start":14823.757,"end":14841.222,"text":"非公務機關中央目的事業主管機關得指定前二項公告範圍之非公務機關訂定個人資料檔案安全維護計畫或業務終止後個人資料處理方法前項計畫處理方法應具備之內容"},{"start":14842.202,"end":14871.751,"text":"执行方式或基准及其他相关事项之办法由中央目的事业主管机关比照主管机关一第20条之一第二项定定之办法定之并得为更严格之规定第52条第12条第二项第22条第一项第三项第5项第7项第23条及第24条规定由主管机关执行之权限主管机关得委托或委办"},{"start":14872.27,"end":14900.159,"text":"其他机关购行政法人或公益团体办理于前条第一项及第二项公告之范围内中央目的事业主管机关或直辖市县市政府得将第22条第一项第三项第五项第七项第23条及第24条规定之执行权限委任所属机关委托或委办其他机关购行政法人或公益团体办理"},{"start":14901.355,"end":14923.716,"text":"1.前二项规定受委托委办或委任者,其成员对于因执行相关事物所知悉或持有之资料赋保密义务。1.第一项及第二项之公益团体不得依第34条第一项规定接受当事人授予诉讼实施权,以自己之名义提起损害赔偿诉讼。"},{"start":14924.386,"end":14934.218,"text":"第53條主管機關應訂定特定目的及個人資料類別提供公務機關及非公務機關參考使用第53條之一"},{"start":14936.071,"end":14960.929,"text":"對主管機關依本法所為之行政處分不符者直接適用行政訴訟程序於第51條之一第一項第二項公告範圍內之非公務機關對中央目的事業主管機關或直轄市縣市政府依本法所為之行政處分不符者向主管機關提起訴願但行政處分系由中央行政機關"},{"start":14962.432,"end":14989.66,"text":"組織基準法所定之獨立機關所為者直接適用行政訴訟程序對本法中華民國圈年圈月圈日修正之條文施行前依本法所為之行政處分不符於修正實施後提起訴願者應向主管機關為之本法中華民國圈年圈月圈日修正之條文實施前已受理尚未"},{"start":14990.04,"end":14991.481,"text":"委員王美惠等18人提案"},{"start":15009.116,"end":15036.72,"text":"第一条之一同行政院提案第一条之二同行政院提案第十二条第一项据中灭失改为减失莫据修正为应于二十四小时内通知当事人第四项首据修正为前二项应通报之内容方式实现与通报范围应变措施记录保存及其他相关事项之办法其余同行政院提案第十八条同行政院提案"},{"start":15037.267,"end":15053.839,"text":"第20條之一同行政院提案 第21條同行政院提案 第三章之一張明同行政院提案 第一節杰明同行政院提案 第21條之一文字同行政院提案 第21條之二同行政院提案 第21條之三"},{"start":15055.39,"end":15083.522,"text":"同行政院提案第21條之四第一項倒數第二句該公務機關應一線為適當之改正與處置第二項第二句主管機關應公佈其名稱及其違法情形其餘同行政院提案第21條之五同行政院提案第二節解明同行政院提案第22條除第一項序文第二句或未檢視其落實本法情形"},{"start":15084.591,"end":15099.555,"text":"而认为有必要时,其余文字同行政院提案。第23条同行政院提案。第24条同行政院提案。第25条除第一项第三款及第四款,维持现行条文其余同行政院提案。"},{"start":15100.305,"end":15129.733,"text":"第26條同行政院提案第27條刪除第41條同行政院提案第47條同行政院提案第48條第一項序文第二句修正為由主管機關令限期改正第二款維持現行條文其餘同行政院提案第49條同行政院提案第51條之一除第一項第二句修正為於主管機關成立之日起四年內第二項首句修正為"},{"start":15130.441,"end":15155.414,"text":"主管機關因每一年會商相關機關後其餘文字同行政院提案第52條除第一項第二句修正為主管機關得委任或委辦其他機關構行政法人或公益團體辦理其餘文字同行政院提案第53條同行政院提案第53條之一同行政院提案第55條同行政院提案"},{"start":15156.431,"end":15168.89,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第一條之一同行政院提案第一條之二同行政院提案第12條同行政院提案第18條同行政院提案第20條之一同行政院提案"},{"start":15169.4,"end":15193.452,"text":"第21條同行政院提案第3章之1章名同行政院提案第1節結名同行政院提案第21條之1同行政院提案第21條之2同行政院提案第21條之3同行政院提案第21條之4同行政院提案第21條之5同行政院提案第2節結名同行政院提案"},{"start":15194.052,"end":15216.781,"text":"第22條同行政院提案第23條同行政院提案第24條同行政院提案第25條同行政院提案第26條同行政院提案第27條刪除第41條同行政院提案第47條同行政院提案第48條同行政院提案第49條同行政院提案第51條之一"},{"start":15218.177,"end":15233.818,"text":"除第一項第二具修正為與主管機關成立之日起五年內其餘文字同行政院提案第52條同行政院提案第53條同行政院提案第53條之一同行政院提案第55條同行政院提案"},{"start":15235.236,"end":15263.735,"text":"委員李昆城等16人提案第一條之一同行政院提案第一條之二同行政院提案第12條同行政院提案第18條同行政院提案第20條之一同行政院提案第21條同行政院提案第三章之一張明同行政院提案第一節杰明同行政院提案第21條之一同行政院提案第21條之二第一項前段為主管機關應每兩年定期集合"},{"start":15264.455,"end":15293.887,"text":"公务机关之个人资料保护管理四项实施情形第四项增订前三项集合之结果应每年定期主动公开其余同行政院提案第21条之三同行政院提案第21条之四同行政院提案第21条之五同行政院提案第二节结名同行政院提案第22条同行政院提案第23条同行政院提案第24条同行政院提案"},{"start":15294.622,"end":15322.28,"text":"第25條同行政院提案第26條同行政院提案第27條三除第41條同行政院提案第47條同行政院提案第48條同行政院提案第49條同行政院提案第51條之一同行政院提案第52條同行政院提案第53條同行政院提案第53條之一同行政院提案第55條同行政院提案"},{"start":15323.12,"end":15347.001,"text":"委員郭玉琴等19人提案第一條之一同行政院提案第一條之二同行政院提案第12條增訂第五項主管機關因每年編制事故統計報告報請行政院被查並公開發布其餘同行政院提案第18條同行政院提案第20條之一同行政院提案第21條同行政院提案"},{"start":15347.501,"end":15371.45,"text":"第三章之一张明同行政院提案第一节杰明同行政院提案第二十一条之一同行政院提案第二十一条之二同行政院提案第二十一条之三同行政院提案第二十一条之四同行政院提案第二十一条之五同行政院提案第二节杰明同行政院提案第二十二条同行政院提案第二十三条同行政院提案"},{"start":15371.977,"end":15399.915,"text":"第24條同行政院提案第25條同行政院提案第26條同行政院提案第27條刪除第41條同行政院提案第47條同行政院提案第48條同行政院提案第49條同行政院提案第51條之一同行政院提案第52條同行政院提案第53條同行政院提案第53條之一同行政院提案"},{"start":15400.595,"end":15424.313,"text":"第53條之二主管機關應設立個人資料保護諮詢及權益協助平台提供民眾協助法律諮詢及教育資源並定期辦理教育推廣及培訓課程各級政府應配合推廣資料素養教育將個人資料保護納入公民教育課程規劃第55條同行政院提案"},{"start":15425.885,"end":15447.382,"text":"委員陳庭飛等16人提案第12條同行政院提案第27條內容條文內容同行政院提案第20條之一第48條除第三項第一款及第二款所列違反之條次修正為第27條第三第四款刪除其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":15448.561,"end":15475.901,"text":"委員蔡宇等18人提案第一條之一同行政院提案第一條之二同行政院提案第12條同行政院提案第18條同行政院提案第20條之一同行政院提案第21條同行政院提案第三章之一章名同行政院提案第一節結名同行政院提案第21條之一同行政院提案第21條之二同行政院提案第21條之三同行政院提案"},{"start":15476.381,"end":15494.592,"text":"第21條知四同行政院提案第21條知五同行政院提案第二節解明同行政院提案第22條同行政院提案第23條同行政院提案第24條同行政院提案第25條同行政院提案第26條同行政院提案第27條"},{"start":15495.771,"end":15496.371,"text":"宣讀完畢好"},{"start":15524.625,"end":15546.09,"text":"那因為剛剛有跟謝昭偉討論一下所以我們今天就先處理到這裡就好所以我們本案定期繼續審查那本日議程所列報告及討論事項均已處理完畢謝謝大家我們現在散會"},{"start":15559.536,"end":15561.057,"text":"请不吝点赞订阅订阅"}]}},{"id":"16700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16700","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eacd64100527991d8cd2752fdacda41c86a12e9ca99aa835c08685ad886dff471e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-22T08:31:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T12:47:00+08:00","duration":15339,"影片長度":"04:15:39","委員發言時間":"08:31:21 - 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席各位委員大家好謝謝答應各位委員長期支持延續民主的事務那麼今天以下就這個施政今年的施政推動情形還有114年度預算凍結的辦理情形以及延續民主基本法修法的議題做簡要的報告第一個就是施政的這個推動情形"},{"start":2258.512,"end":2268.028,"text":"这一年来秉持行政院卓院长新力量新方向的施政理念落实赖总统国家希望工程的愿景"},{"start":2268.57,"end":2297.293,"text":"致力推動族群共融與多元貧錢在組織的制度方面本會在113年底完成行政院原住民族基本法推動會的功能的調整聚焦在健康錢還有社福錢以及就業錢等基本的潛力我們逐步縮減原住民族跟主流社會間的發展的落差在法制的推動方面平埔原住民族群社會法在5月15日"},{"start":2298.514,"end":2314.653,"text":"經過行政院會通過並送請大宴審議落實憲法判決的精神推動多元民主的認定同時原住民族保留地潛力恢復以及管理利用條例跟原住民族土地使用規則等"},{"start":2316.345,"end":2330.644,"text":"我們將持續以各部會來協調加速來研議以建前原住民族土地跟治理的體系另外本會跟內政部國防部在3月15日會前發布原住民"},{"start":2331.451,"end":2353.209,"text":"愚民自制猎枪、愚枪、习可及管理办法那本会在3月18日发布了原住民自制猎枪安全使用信念实施要点推动符合宪法四字第803号的保障原住民狩猎的文化权利并且务实来兼顾社会的安全在文化语言方面"},{"start":2354.468,"end":2380.675,"text":"我們優先預祝協靈前足以沉浸式的教學後植原住民知識體系的內涵並且已經正式啟動國立原住民族博物館的籌設工程未來將結合數位科技來打造世界級的南島文化的平台也首創原住民族運動選手育成的方案支持基層以及後植體育人才提升競技的實力"},{"start":2381.943,"end":2410.648,"text":"在经济社会方面我们辅导部落产业的升级还有规划部落特色游程带动营业的产业并且推动文化健康站跟研制民族家庭服务中心基点落实在地服务扩大族人的支持网络针对盐乡以及都会的地区我们持续建设部落的遗迹环境优化道路的工程建置族群友善的空间在国际交流方面"},{"start":2411.685,"end":2427.002,"text":"我們連結南島語族的弟兄姊妹並且透過舒展還有親民的培力的活動還有部落體驗等等以文化拓展跟友邦還有我國的交流讓原住民族發揮國際參與的能量"},{"start":2429.344,"end":2447.877,"text":"第二个是114年度预算冻结的办理情形本会以及所属的文化发展中心在114年度的预算冻结的总金额达6.6亿多元那包含了业务会冻结70%"},{"start":2449.977,"end":2469.296,"text":"大概是4.4億多元那現在本會議所屬的文化發展中心的預算執行我們已經達到30%符合大宴結議要求的30%預算解凍的條件針對我們解凍狀況報告以下三點做簡要的說明"},{"start":2470.297,"end":2486.186,"text":"關於行政的成本如水電會大樓管理會以及檔案的搬遷等等預算項目我們以依照大院的要求逐項來說明那第二個是針對人事與委員聆聘的爭議"},{"start":2487.864,"end":2508.166,"text":"本會依據組織法修法的結果解聘了16位有給職的聘用委員並且一大宴的互代結議我們積極研議115年起我們實際編制希望能夠達到230人的這個補充人力的方案強化人力穩定性與專業的需求"},{"start":2509.648,"end":2536.862,"text":"第三 政策性的預算凍結項目比如像部落的基礎建設還有嚴明青年就業還有智慧治理以及南島文化推展等我們都依照規定提出專案報告並據實回應以部落緊急補助為例我們去年就編列了3400萬來支應風災搶救以重大的政策項目支持第一線地方政府及時來應變"},{"start":2539.144,"end":2557.4,"text":"第三針對原住民族基本法修法的說明面對本次12案有12個案的修正提案經過會診後我們重點如下首先對於強化原住民族土地錢還有自治錢的修法方向我們"},{"start":2558.973,"end":2580.557,"text":"高度尊重特別是第21條強調自由事前知情同意等原則對保障族人的潛意確實有很大的幫忙但相關條文涵蓋非常廣泛而且涉及私有地應該審慎釐清適用範圍以及法治配套以免對現行的財產權產生憲政的疑慮"},{"start":2583.098,"end":2591.864,"text":"建議持續來收集地方政府跟族群的組織意見凝聚社會共識後我們再行推進其次"},{"start":2593.021,"end":2618.049,"text":"有關原住民族日的入法還有順時計於假期的延長以及文化創意產業立法等條文目前已有相關的行政命令跟法律規定例如紀念日與節日實施條例還有文化創意的產業範圍建議避免重複的立法維持基本法作為原則性的母法的體制最後"},{"start":2618.829,"end":2645.918,"text":"对一部分涉及重大财政还有制度设计的提案比如说设立百亿规模的综合发展基金还有都市研究民主专访以及民族议会法人化等我们乐见其讨论未来我们也将持续推动法治研究以及族群的知行程序但是这需要跨部会的审慎协调整体评估政策性的可行性"},{"start":2647.349,"end":2666.529,"text":"面对多元社会的期待,延民会团队我们将持续服务族人,并且以务实合作的态度,推动制度与政策的改革,敬请各位委员持续关心,支持本会各项施政,让延驻民主的前逸,还有保障更往前迈进。最后,谢谢大家。"},{"start":2671.708,"end":2684.54,"text":"好 謝謝我們曾主任委員的說明其他單位的報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報報告委員會因為今天還有法案的審查所以我們要補一個提案說明的程序我們請盧憲英委員進行提案說明陸委員有請"},{"start":2692.536,"end":2715.072,"text":"本席今天有兩個提案第一個就是針對原住民主基本法公布施行後20年來設限於中央目的事業主管機關的經費及權責劃分以及各地方政府的財政能力不均故原住民主地區固有的交通建設水利設施農產運銷觀光及環境設施等改善情況不如預期"},{"start":2716.033,"end":2743.321,"text":"以致原住民族地區之技術環境及公共服務品質未能有效提升因此本席修正原住民族基本法第15條第一項第二項之規定明定要求政府設置原住民族地區建設基金其設置基金之規模應為新台幣100億元並以本法修正施行後五年內分年編列預算以加速改善原住民族地區各項基礎建設及利於促進原鄉觀光及產業等經濟活動"},{"start":2744.921,"end":2774.234,"text":"第二個就是因為最近太陽關店跟封店的設置一直困擾我們原鄉地區所以我再提了一個原區法第21條的立法議旨以及民國94年公佈施行的原條文關之該條文是關於原住民族最關心的知情同意權以及政府或私人與原住民族土地從事土地開發資源利用生態保育及學術研究原住民族的分享其相關利益原條文為政府或私人與原住民族"},{"start":2774.614,"end":2791.75,"text":"土地內從事土地開發資源利用生態保育學術研究因諮商並取得原住民主同意或參與原住民主的分享相關利益不限私有或公有土地建立原住民主土地應該是先於國家法規而存在的自然主權"},{"start":2793.091,"end":2816.821,"text":"應該沒有公有或私有之分然該辦法其公佈卻將知情同意權的行使僅限縮在公有民族民保留地上而排除私有之適用將造成原住民族傳統領域土地的支離甚至衍生出原住民族土地沿海一帶私有土地的開發案或再生能源開發案如太陽能風電及熱能碳勘及"},{"start":2818.221,"end":2837.717,"text":"开发等民间业则刻意选择私有原住民保留地而无法而无该办法的适用导致原住民的权益无法有效的伸张跟保障故本席为了保障原住民主土地权益特针对原住民主土地或部落范围土地划设办法"},{"start":2838.377,"end":2857.155,"text":"這公佈所聲言僅限於公有原住民主保留地的爭議點應就母法部分現行原住民主基本法第21條的規定應修正為民國94年原基法公佈施行的條文文字以消彌此一爭議謝謝謝謝盧先生委員提案說明"},{"start":2863.223,"end":2886.638,"text":"好那我們現在進行合併的詢答委員質詢前原例做幾點宣告第一 每月委員發言時間本會及原住民委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘我們上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天進行預算解凍案跟法案的處理我們就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好 謝謝"},{"start":2889.844,"end":2912.416,"text":"那麼現在進行巡打我們請登記第一位張志倫委員質詢好謝謝主席各位官員各位委員大家早有請我們原委會曾志勇主委曾主委有請"},{"start":2921.347,"end":2936.248,"text":"主委好主委有關於這個今天是這個有關原委會的預算解凍案首先要跟主委報告在去年6月24公布禁法補償條例第6條的修正草案也是我們很多"},{"start":2937.029,"end":2963.108,"text":"大家所關心的從114年的進法補償的金額要從每公頃3萬塊提高到6萬塊所以在過去我知道在去年的年底的時候很多不管是原住民委員在野黨要求說過去只提從3萬塊提到4萬塊的以後要把它提高到6萬塊在野黨立委大家全力的努力之下行政院終於妥協也在今年3月10號決定將這些進法補償的金額從"},{"start":2969.873,"end":2993.772,"text":"這個從3萬塊要提到6萬塊所以增加了這個23億9964萬的經費然後呈報在行政院辦理追加預算那請問一下兩個問題第一個是說這個現在整個進行的進度如何那第二個就是要請教主委的事因為我們也不想要這樣子過去發生的情況再一次的發生那因為現在是五月的下旬原委會是不是應該已經"},{"start":2995.479,"end":3008.449,"text":"差不多編好了 明年也是115年度的預算有沒有把這個進法補償的預算給編足那因為你們自己有設算在從今年開始起 所有每年需要的金分是52.15億有沒有這樣 有沒有編足這樣的預算 請回答"},{"start":3011.923,"end":3036.25,"text":"好謝謝委員吼 那有關這個進化補償這個這個補償的經費我們已經在今年的3月10號我們就已經申請 我們跟那個那個我們的那個行政院來申請希望能夠來追加然後我們每一年都是在9月發放我們希望今年一樣如期是在9月會全數發放嗎"},{"start":3038.571,"end":3044.893,"text":"9月好就是發到每公頃6萬塊對每公頃6萬好謝謝好那115年度的會不會也編組還是會編組到6萬塊嗎我們有編組有編組有編組就是下個年度的確定嗎希望是一樣的就是52.15億預估的對好謝謝那第二個當然謝謝主委的回應我相信這樣子的話"},{"start":3064.338,"end":3087.448,"text":"是會給所有的這個有這樣子需要的原住民一個很完整的一個補償那第二個我們今天討論的是這個有關於預算解凍的案子可是在預算解凍的時候我們當然也希望原委會可以有一個完整清楚的一個解釋那我們看到說第一個很多委員之前有提過的就是說有關於一般行政費下面的有關於水電費的部分"},{"start":3088.188,"end":3113.182,"text":"他原本只有編列在113年只有編列85萬然後在114年的時候編列了350多萬所以增幅高達好幾倍那我們看到了這個原委會提供的說明是說其實過去有在109年到113年的時候其實每年的平均的水電費就是300多萬那我們想請問說為什麼過去每年的水電費都是300多萬"},{"start":3114.242,"end":3129.161,"text":"可是在從110過去109年到113年的時候每年編列預算只有八十幾萬因為我們都知道水電費是時之時付的那這些不夠的錢到底是從過去到底是從哪邊所指引的這可以來做一些回答"},{"start":3134.945,"end":3159.882,"text":"主要就是因為我們往年的話都是預算水電費都編不足那考量到近三年的這個電費調漲已經超過30%了所以在114年的時候行政院就有增編預算給我們那是不是可以請您回應一下說為什麼過去水電費都編不足那你是從哪一個經費去我們是從一般的行政的業務費去先留用到"},{"start":3160.602,"end":3185.172,"text":"那一般行政會不會壓縮到一般行政的業務不會兩百多萬不會影響到一般的業務那原本那些一般的業務原本都在做什麼使用哪一些業務的費用拿來去轉播到水電費可以回答嗎比如說像那個員工的一些福利的費用那員工的福利如何做保障"},{"start":3187.23,"end":3197.931,"text":"他就是從一般的比如說比如說什麼清潔維護或是保全警衛這些等等的業務費去做調餘所以這邊我要跟好有請主委"},{"start":3199.184,"end":3221.936,"text":"所以你有看到聽到剛剛你們同仁的回應嗎所以我們希望的是說原民會你們的這個所有的預算應該要編列要符合就是說真正的時之時付所以大家最針對原委會的預算才不會說這麼多的質疑就是說我們希望說不要拿這個大家同仁的福利來去做隨便的流用其實這樣會造成大家的這個"},{"start":3223.317,"end":3231.126,"text":"福利會有一些的影響希望說未來相關的預算編列可以依照十知十負的整體的概念來好好編預算可以嗎是"},{"start":3231.752,"end":3260.611,"text":"好OK好那第二個我們來請教一下就是說其實我們今天預算解凍案我相信在野立委我們都展現一個誠意想要讓預算所有都解凍讓大家有完整的預算來使用可是我們看到又看到另外一個其實在你們的這個預算的解編的這個專案報告書裡面寫的非常的不明確裡面有一個在第21頁裡面有一個就是說關於辦理原住民逐日及節慶活動所需經費是500萬元"},{"start":3262.252,"end":3291.293,"text":"其實照113年的178萬元其實增加了321萬元所以這增加的幅率也是好幾倍可是在你們的報告書裡面其實沒有明確寫說為何要增加這樣子的一個經費的內容只是一個很普遍性講的是說又是因為要委託民間專業團隊來去協助辦理所以是不是請主委這邊我們想要協助擁有會可是你們可不可以明確的指示說為什麼預算要增加兩到三倍"},{"start":3292.625,"end":3319.64,"text":"好 那這個是處長來說明好 請處長說明根據內容報告這個部分我們當時在提供給大院的這個一四年度預算科目細部計畫說明表裡面已經有說明就是說這筆經費主要是要包含辦理原住民族政策高峰會一場次國家希望工程成果發表一場次然後製作與推播原住民族致敬影片一支頒發原住民族獎章還有辦理重大原住民族政策專題演講三場次"},{"start":3321.321,"end":3341.085,"text":"這個在當初提供給大院的這個細部計畫說明表已經有已經有名列這些工作項目我請問一下你有寫在今天的這個報告裡面嗎沒有那是不是會後可以把這個資料再給我好不好所以你的意思是說你有增加這個舉辦這個表演的場次大概多幾場我們當然有多了這個"},{"start":3348.918,"end":3356.224,"text":"總共多了4場多了4場是好那會後再把資料提供提供給我們好不好謝謝好那現在請主委"},{"start":3358.982,"end":3384.381,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我們也要請教就是說關於你們第113頁裡面特別有強調的是本席很在意的就是原住民的朋友他的第一個原住民的社會住宅不足以及之前在質詢的時候好像提到說我們原住民的朋友要排社宅的時候常常都排隊都排很久拿到號碼牌都拿到很後面所以當時本席在質詢的時候有特別拜託說你們是不是可以來"},{"start":3385.262,"end":3400.758,"text":"查詢就是說我們這些原住民的朋友到底有多少人還在排社宅有多少人其實現在過去是排社宅一直沒有住不到的人數你們有沒有統計那我在第一百億失業裡面也有看到說你們終於有來做委託這個"},{"start":3402.499,"end":3428.125,"text":"委託要來處理這件事情我來念一下這個內容他說那個園民會於114年委託辦理原住民族的住宅輔導有委託專業服務勞務採購案來調查以及推估原住民民族家族居住協助需求的類型以及戶數那我現在想要請教主委因為已經有在辦理了現在辦理的情形的狀況如何是不是可以可不可以讓大家知道一下"},{"start":3431.726,"end":3454.051,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前每四年原住民經濟狀況調查是每四年調查一次那我們今年開始我們居住調查研究我們分兩部分來做進行第一部分我們已經先盤點有社宅需求的行政區只要超過1500人以上表示有社宅需求目前是25區那25區以後我們認為說接下來我們會跟內政部協調"},{"start":3458.112,"end":3475.617,"text":"去比對他目前正在興辦社宅的有幾處然後再去評估說然後再去比對完之後才知道說我們後面可以協商哪些地區是優先協調能夠協助原住民入住社宅的目前做法是這樣子所以第一個你會建立原住民社宅嗎"},{"start":3479.838,"end":3496.605,"text":"我們目前根據原住民人口比較多的行政區超過一千五百人以上行政區總共二十五個行政區那二十五個行政區呢那我們在比對在內政部在當地有沒有新辦設宅的新辦計畫那這一部分有確定完比對完之後呢"},{"start":3498.726,"end":3521.899,"text":"這部分就是我們要優先協調地方政府努力提高原住民入住社宅的保障只是比對各縣市原住民人數較多而且他們有社宅需求的縣市比對出來這些縣市以後再跟縣市政府來討論說是不是可以讓這些人有什麼樣的機制可以入住社宅是嗎那這樣的報告大概什麼時候會出來"},{"start":3526.007,"end":3550.629,"text":"這個報告應該跟我們再個一個月的時間我們就會一個月可以出來那希望說這個報告出來以後可以提供給我們所有內政委員會的委員來去做參考那最後一個問題還有時間的關係那剛剛特別有提到說這個語言是文化傳承跟發展的根本尤其原住民的語言的復興跟推廣不僅影響到原住民族的教育體系的建構也影響文化的保存跟發揚"},{"start":3551.71,"end":3578.996,"text":"那剛剛特別在裡面有提到說這個足語幼兒園現在只有79班所以受益人數現在是有限的那我想要請教一下說現在國小教育部將國小階段的這個足語師資的認證門檻從高級調到中高級那我們就幼兒會的立場如何確保師資的培育以及這個進修的機制可以同步補強以免避免這些教育的落差"},{"start":3579.91,"end":3584.059,"text":"跟委員報告齁那個這個主委教師我們希望是"},{"start":3585.253,"end":3613.133,"text":"他能夠他的這個足以認證必須是要中高級中高級我們現在在能力這個在測驗上我們要把它分成有聽說還有讀寫還有這四個都要會的你只要會先這個聽說你就可以來通過這個中高級的足以認證你就可以取得這個足以老師的這個資格我們希望更多的足以老師來"},{"start":3614.694,"end":3634.941,"text":"加入這個我們這個足語的這個讓我們的小朋友更多人來寫我們的足語所以主委的意思是說過去從高級就是要通過高級的門檻把它變成中高級所以未來老師人數會變更多然後未來可以受到這些那個"},{"start":3635.781,"end":3653.533,"text":"足以教育的人數 你們也考慮要增加對你們有這樣的計畫是嗎是OK好 那還有一個問題剛才看到也是很重要的問題就是有關於這個我們有關於援助民族青年就業跟基進的問題我們有一個百萬的創業計畫就是說如果你符合特定條件的話"},{"start":3654.293,"end":3673.963,"text":"你就可以得到100萬的創業基金我們過去10年跟主委報告10年我們輔導了200家的企業這邊我們提到一個很好很優質的一個數據說企業的存活率是86.5%所以我們對這個很好奇因為我們覺得這做得很好是不是可以請主委在會後的時候提供說"},{"start":3675.483,"end":3693.718,"text":"這些的企業是分別是在哪些的縣市那它是在哪些的產業然後我們來確認說是不是各族群在這個各個縣市裡面我們的原住民都可以認真都可以得到一些創業的補助而且他們都開支善業可以嗎好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝張志倫委員的諮詢下一個我們請王美惠委員諮詢"},{"start":3708.328,"end":3711.027,"text":"主席 當下主委曾主委有請"},{"start":3719.599,"end":3741.551,"text":"主委好主委在這裡本事先幫你探討一下我們最近修改的節日條款雖然是充滿有說要修也好,不說要修也好,但是畢竟已經通過了所以本來是一天變三天在這個過程當中"},{"start":3747.499,"end":3757.893,"text":"我們有十六族的時間的地盤不一定因為依您規定的像阿美族有阿美族的當時"},{"start":3759.659,"end":3782.445,"text":"主委本身要跟你在這裡探討這個問題第十六座裡面他們所有的票款你剛才去管理第十六座的是規定阿美族的愛票一位到二位布農族是愛票幾位到幾位你剛才有這個評估過來,請主委你回答一下"},{"start":3785.826,"end":3793.153,"text":"跟委員報告,我們作為原住民,什麼時候要過豐年祭,還是什麼時候要過小米祭都有一定的時間,譬如說排完族,魯凱族是七月八月,小米豐收的時候,阿美族也是在這個時候"},{"start":3803.843,"end":3808.906,"text":"有固定嘛有固定有固定的當中我們要票款的時候他才有固定他可以三天分三天簽約或是一天三天總一天票"},{"start":3819.565,"end":3823.006,"text":"這三天主要是這樣,可能是因為有的現在都在讀書嘛要對自己的部落,可能時間上要三天比較...比較...比較...比較...比較能夠虔誠來參與比較有綜藝的時間,要坐車回去,要做什麼準備可能還有那個時間嘛主委,我來請教一下"},{"start":3845.695,"end":3848.036,"text":"因為我現在要問的就是,譬如說阿美族,他譬如在六月八月的時候,我要來請教的時候,是三天做一次請,還是我可以分開請?"},{"start":3862.455,"end":3871.562,"text":"跟委員報告 如果照這個法律這樣過 應該是三天你要去簽不是應該喔 一定過是一定會效果的喔對 應該是三天這位簽喔 主委本身來講 不要說應該因為既然過了 你就 相為"},{"start":3882.671,"end":3884.373,"text":"他就不擔心,你說要說清楚,讓北省知道,我們原住民北省的認知,老闆也知道說,他要怎麼請假,要怎麼休息。"},{"start":3898.525,"end":3903.206,"text":"也不要造成我們原住民要休息的人的困擾讓要請我們原住民的伯父的人知道說他就是當時差不多當時要休息我們如果不休息是他自己的管理不對是要不然我們想這個是要保障他可以公明正大去休這三天是"},{"start":3927.032,"end":3945.808,"text":"是不是這樣 是這樣就是做一次票還是分幾票做一次 做一次啦好 主委本席跟你請教一下這個票三天會在幾年會落實施落票還是每年到票"},{"start":3948.925,"end":3956.39,"text":"總統公佈後就直接... 我知道啦 我還不知道總統公佈之後 我是說 你知道我們的發佈是...因為...兩名可以修啦對啊 今年就可以修啊"},{"start":3966.923,"end":3971.026,"text":"對啊,你如果說這樣,不會選也要請教也要問,對不對?你可不可以知道,總統公佈之後,會最少有兩族選不到我如果去請教,這兩族選不到,可以補選嗎?"},{"start":3992.506,"end":4000.554,"text":"因為普通人,我們這個,所謂我們這個豐年祭,是說這種祭儀節慶,是都在那天,不能說那天過後,你還要報喔,不用報嘛,好來,來主委,你說的說不用報啦,譬如這樣說啦,我是阿美族,我的先生是布農族"},{"start":4018.876,"end":4031.946,"text":"我應該是要對先生走,這樣我是要叫阿美族還是要叫布農族,我可以叫布農族嗎?可以,你叫布農族當然可以最主要就是不管叫還是說,你就是選擇一個"},{"start":4038.31,"end":4046.494,"text":"這樣我說給你聽,如果過了不能走的時候,如果發佈之後,他如果對先生、對太太,他也可以再申請啊像你說的意思,他也可以再申請"},{"start":4059.141,"end":4062.463,"text":"通過的我們現在通過這個條文必須是本人啦我當然啦像我我就不能唱啦要本人啦對啊我比較不知道要本人我現在就是說配合的當中一定有一個"},{"start":4076.83,"end":4079.915,"text":"我們沒有這個問題嘛我們沒有工作的時候是不是我可以跟太太也好,跟先生也好來申請啊"},{"start":4091.565,"end":4095.249,"text":"主委,我如果問你,你也要求,我也要求,因為這十一年是稍微事情,但是我覺得我們想這個的時候,我們的細節完全沒有說,完全要怎麼修,完全要怎麼處理"},{"start":4112.25,"end":4124.761,"text":"到現在,我只能問一件事,是否有企業改?因為他們請很多人,就固定要請一個關注民,我們的認真發表的關注民,有的到現在,也不知道,主委,所以我好意,要跟你說,你要想好事,想好好,未來我們的關注民,"},{"start":4140.421,"end":4145.284,"text":"要去吃陶爐也好,陶雞請我們也好,他才知道有這個問題的存在因為我覺得這很大觀的,剛才我來講,有兩族你們發佈的時間已經過了,對他也不公平,但是不公平的當中"},{"start":4162.642,"end":4179.626,"text":"配合性,他可以對配合性請,是不是這樣,是啦,好來,主委,在這,本席還要跟你探討一下,平埔族,平埔族,在大法官第十八十一年的十五月,就說我們三黨來,"},{"start":4182.895,"end":4192.819,"text":"我們就要平步足 歸納瑞冠族民家 但是我們有看到鄉長的認真 要怎麼解決這個問題到時候你認為鄉長站出來 你覺得要再補充什麼來"},{"start":4205.852,"end":4226.548,"text":"現在這個我們這個平埔原住民這個身分法已經送來大宴現在當然就是說我們完全是依照憲判就是憲法判決的意旨來用但是我們平埔的朋友當然就是說他們想說最好是所有的權利一概就到位啦但是是最好"},{"start":4227.769,"end":4235.155,"text":"他是願意的愛 他們的狀態覺得說我又願意屬於原住民 你說你老父這個法律在這裡我不是道道地地的原住民但是我們的憲法的判決意思是這樣我們要想就是民主別先認定 再來認定他的身份他很多的那個管理 還有他受到的一些這個"},{"start":4256.853,"end":4263.699,"text":"從過去的這些破壞跟現在的山地原住民和平地原住民是不相同的不相同真的不相同所以是一定要有另外的專法來保障我們的這個來阻止平埔原住民現在我跟你說這個問題你要好好去處理因為該"},{"start":4277.992,"end":4285.356,"text":"認主歸宗,愛護認主歸宗啦,不是跟一個名聲而已說愛一個是關主民,跟青菜好一下這樣也不夠準確,所以這個我們要好好跟行政院,跟我們的院會的委員來看要怎麼樣,可以做好事,好不好主委,主委在這裡本身要跟你探討一下,你們有"},{"start":4307.649,"end":4325.033,"text":"電量的價位適當有80年到84年希望透過融資的時候福祉部落的理由好、運作好、生活、公益、產業但是在這個預算正當83年我們有3億4千多萬給你們做但是第三季的時候你們要執行"},{"start":4336.335,"end":4345.303,"text":"39% 但是你們的認證和發表的這個時間今天你們收起來會報告到整個本縣辦公室跟你們要要的資料看 一定是"},{"start":4353.609,"end":4359.572,"text":"八十七趴,中間要八十八趴,但是主委我要跟你說,不只有在吹,還有在做,沒有在吹,慢慢做,你看第三季到現在,時間多久了,是因為什麼關係,才會差很多,中間一倍的執行率,所以本身要跟你說,"},{"start":4379.6,"end":4387.287,"text":"要好好的去做,因為跟他認真就要認真,不要慢慢的走,有嘴就有做再來,我們行政院的新董事,更好好的地方的創生裡面的結尾有一個福祉原鄉綠色產業的發展裡面的結尾"},{"start":4403.783,"end":4410.469,"text":"總金額有兩億,分做四檔來做,這四檔裡面有二十間,二十間裡面定的一間補助一千萬我要問主委,你的綠色產業的標準是什麼?官鄉有夠有什麼綠色的產業?"},{"start":4428.406,"end":4447.04,"text":"請問福祉的對象是什麼?地方要怎麼去告白的關注人在這裡面每當有這麼多工作要做你們要怎麼選出需要做的人來 你簡單回答一下就是說那個"},{"start":4451.645,"end":4457.867,"text":"經營這個排碳的部分,我們會找...主委,我講的,剛才講得很清楚,你現在聽到有我講的意思嘛因為我這陣子的時間夠了,拜託你給我一個書面給我,第二天的時候"},{"start":4470.526,"end":4478.228,"text":"這是應該向正義協助關注民要讓他們做好事不是因為個人而異要讓什麼人做就要讓什麼人做這樣就不好了這樣也不公平要讓認真罷免的關注民有這個機會參與以上是 謝謝"},{"start":4498.495,"end":4501.238,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢主席有請主委主委有請"},{"start":4522.605,"end":4525.946,"text":"主委好 主委好 你要喝茶嗎沒關係 沒關係好 請教主委我們前主委花了145萬的我們國家的費用 人民的血汗錢出版出版一個就是"},{"start":4546.253,"end":4552.417,"text":"專刊一共125頁有41頁是就是講自己講自己41頁60頁就是主委各地的照片還有只有24頁是在介紹言明會主委你在去年被選的時候也承諾說要"},{"start":4570.549,"end":4573.553,"text":"檢討改進但是目前檢討改進的是什麼去年你有說未來不會再發生但是我們請教一下我們的內部是否針對這個專刊內容審核流程進行的如何"},{"start":4590.574,"end":4598.68,"text":"針對裡面的一個就是主委說你有無任何的追究的作為 或者還是說目前我們的主委在已經下台了整個事件就是不了了之嗎 這個三個問題我要希望你謹慎的回答 不可以跟我們我們委員這樣 互相這樣他聽不下去 聽到會氣起來"},{"start":4617.314,"end":4643.124,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是說這個我們在昨天已經收到審計部的一些對我們的指證那我想我們會依據審計部的一些這個規定我們來做一些回應那而後就是說像類似這樣譬如說沒有在辦理這樣的一個項目的時候我們就不要再繼續編下去了就不要再編下去了第二個那這樣的一個專刊"},{"start":4645.385,"end":4668.939,"text":"我們內部有特別的檢討我們不允許在這樣的這個狀況在發生我們可以可以做一些就是說我們的所有執行的成果的一個報告但是不需要對個人太多的這個這個先養自己個人的一個這個就是整個他的成果我們想我們會做很大的一個改變那今年就沒有做像去年就沒有我們就沒有做已經改變了"},{"start":4671.937,"end":4672.798,"text":"我們內部要檢討要有做一些懲處要處理"},{"start":4690.792,"end":4702.677,"text":"所以要怎麼去追回或者怎麼樣去做吧不只是說我們未來你講的我們認同我們也接受說你有新的作為希望大家就不要放但是我們整個審核或者是說他這樣子的話就這樣崩潰了"},{"start":4707.799,"end":4735.661,"text":"這樣大家就不會去這樣嗎不會啦所以你會去追究會去看如何去處理讓大家看到的是說我們現任的主委真的是有在做事情謝謝但是我們當初這樣子的專康我們就是我們的原住民主政策法規收集整理辦理原住民的族人口的基礎資料庫"},{"start":4737.262,"end":4751.084,"text":"的規劃及建設的研究項目挪用來所以凍結時說明要求人民會要提出具體的計畫但是我看到報告裡面"},{"start":4752.466,"end":4756.728,"text":"就是沒有這樣子的內容成效啊所以我們看過送來的報告沒有啊你不能只是說我們檢討過去未來但是的內容我們真的沒有看到報告裡面在從就是說112年至113年整合原住民"},{"start":4773.435,"end":4797.873,"text":"主人口基礎的資料庫持續執行中研究如何應用都市原住民族的發展也就是說這個並不是一個全新的計畫進行整個就是一年的整合我們再審議算到現在所以具體的計畫內容又如何"},{"start":4799.724,"end":4826.182,"text":"它是如此進度又如何 效果又如何因為報告中我們沒有看到啊所以你說說 人工你煮了沒拿給我們就算了所以我們就是要你們報告就是要有一個完整成果因為你要設立目標你才能去執行 才能完成這個目標但是完全我們沒有看到沒有看到的話 你要做什麼 我也不知道"},{"start":4828.084,"end":4842.715,"text":"那你就講的內容也不清不楚但是我們就是進行一年了一年多的整合這樣看不好過啊那是不是我那個處長做簡要的說明好不好好"},{"start":4844.042,"end":4866.075,"text":"好跟委員報告那這部分我們原本與這個中研院合作的這個資料庫後來因為我們後來有推動這個原住民族智慧治理計畫我們是把這個資料庫的內容都納入到我們的智慧治理計畫裡面去做後續的應用所以目前我們這個都園的一些基礎資料的內容都可以在我們的這個智慧治理的資料庫裡面去做應用"},{"start":4867.843,"end":4893.131,"text":"好講得好講得好我再跟你講你講的是生化原住民治理智慧治理計劃解凍案你說放在這裡14年編列的預算新增了生化原住民組織智慧治理計劃但是呢在之前呢就有一個就是我們在在這個依據預算"},{"start":4897.717,"end":4904.28,"text":"法的第五條的規定這四年就是四年期繼續經費該要的計劃內容剛才你說的但是呢的配額但是呢我們這筆的預算呢有合理性還有說預期的時程還有說難以追追蹤的計劃的概念但是呢在我們看喔你看喔我們的在建構援助民主"},{"start":4926.755,"end":4930.039,"text":"智慧治理中長期計劃 同樣的啦我真的要堅持幾個字 中長程"},{"start":4937.523,"end":4941.165,"text":"所以我们的内容差异非常笼统就是短短就是陈述主委你看这笔议算是高达5328万但是你们提出的报告写不满一张A4一面的A4不是一张一面的A4都不满就5328万"},{"start":4965.461,"end":4978.439,"text":"所以呢就多了三個字多了三個字所以呢是實際上的工作內容建構研究民主智慧治理計畫只是"},{"start":4979.557,"end":4983.498,"text":"換湯不換藥啦 所以這樣子的話你們就寫的是說優化加強 優化什麼加強什麼完全沒有所以呢我們相信不只原住民的朋友不接受我們全國納稅前的國民也沒辦法接受你們這樣子的去"},{"start":5004.853,"end":5013.241,"text":"這個預算的分配這樣子的效果在哪裡看我們主委說明還是我們的你講的嘛 你要說放在這裡 放在這裡就打臉了"},{"start":5024.47,"end":5043.267,"text":"對 這個部分 因為我們現在其實是第一期計畫是2010年到2013年就結束那我們現在2014年執行的是第二期計畫那第二期計畫除了我們會持續再去收集就是更廣泛的收集這個原住民族相關的散落在各部會跟地方政府的一些資料之外"},{"start":5043.948,"end":5054.6,"text":"那另外我們也會運用一些新的資訊技術去重新去盤整這些資料然後讓它可以去支援我們的整個決策所以我們第二期會加上深化這個詞的用意是這樣子的"},{"start":5057.725,"end":5061.988,"text":"深化、優化、加強那個詞大家都要說但是那個內容是什麼我們看不到我們也要說講這句話每個人都會講但是內容內容是我們要看的我們想要的是說你的執行是真的達到這個目標達到這個目標所以才是我們最重要的好 接下來我再問一下就是說我們"},{"start":5084.904,"end":5113.032,"text":"以推人员的不足的部分哈语言留存援助民主文化非常重要的一环我们都很认同加上现在政府也推各国的语言我们都很感觉很骄傲哈这个就是我们一定要保存的但是在我们设置足以推动人员实施计划编列了1亿500万这笔预算去年相比就增加了300万"},{"start":5114.272,"end":5123.175,"text":"但我們提醒主委 預算編列固然很重要 語言推廣我們都很認同但是實際行政才是人才的 行政人才是我們的關鍵因為實際上全國到去年8月底 我們金融人員還不足超過30人"},{"start":5136.659,"end":5152.132,"text":"甚至四個縣市四個縣市沒有足以推動人員依據我們的設置辦法除了直轄市各個縣市還有原住民人口要達到1500萬"},{"start":5154.553,"end":5178.408,"text":"1500人非原住民族的地區在次公所多應用所以現在我們看到的是123人民還有多少缺額因為這個是我們看的是去年的數據所以我現在今年我們沒有看到所以說明一下"},{"start":5179.923,"end":5182.706,"text":"為什麼呢我們的縣市怎麼樣去補足這個資料庫或者是說我們應用如何因為我們是來提出問題解決問題所以我們希望說要給我們一個答覆"},{"start":5194.5,"end":5213.743,"text":"因為根委員報告這個足以專採的人力我們是跟大寫合作來培訓信用合一來增加就業那自己剛剛所講的還有一些事還沒有足以老師的話我想我們會盡快來檢討讓這些沒有足以老師的我們盡快來補好不好"},{"start":5217.472,"end":5231.595,"text":"怎麼做啊 經開補我怎麼說你怎麼樣 就是因為我們感覺就是我們要如何讓我們的就是各個縣市我們順利啊 順利通過這樣的資料庫補足這個人員因為我們傳承我們很重要 因為我們各組的語言嘛各組的語言我們都不足 現在只有"},{"start":5243.197,"end":5266.876,"text":"就缺了30個人像我們的傳承的語言就就很對不對我們要怎麼樣去說以推人員都不足的話我們希望我們希望就是我們要推廣還有保存非常重要我們希望支持也肯定這個計畫所以我們希望我們的主委還有我們認識的之前在台中的我們的"},{"start":5268.9,"end":5298.24,"text":"希望就是真的要監督要各個縣市我們要以推人員要補足讓我們的語言還有文化真正的讓我們全國看到也讓我們的語言去到哪裡我們那傳承很重要的希望主委你有真正的作為不能只說我補足補足你怎麼做這個部分我們希望你要有一個具體的因為我們看到所有的計畫內容都不具體只是一句話"},{"start":5299,"end":5313.024,"text":"就會解決任何的事情我們沒辦法接受啦好謝謝因為時間的關係希望你真正的有讓你回答你也誰答不出來所以我們希望你也有具體的給我們讓有一個依據你有一個依據有一個目標你就往這個依據目標去執行這樣你管理你要叫人做到有好處啦謝謝好我們謝謝麥義貞委員下一位我們有請劉許廷召委"},{"start":5331.877,"end":5332.821,"text":"謝主席 曾主委有請"},{"start":5340.075,"end":5364.829,"text":"委員好主委剛剛那個我們有委員在討論那個碎石祭儀的部分是這你回答的不清不楚會讓大家誤會啊這個碎石祭儀不管是一天或三天對不對是不是第一個要有原住民身份才能放對第二是自己或配偶擇一參加嘛是其實這樣不就好了嗎是就很清楚嘛塔杜亞他在美會委員講阿美族是布農族對不對然後各自參加可以或者是兩邊參加同一個也都可以嘛"},{"start":5365.609,"end":5393.727,"text":"但是如果譬如說我老婆是阿美族的但我不能用碎石記憶嘛因為我沒有原名身份對不對你們其實也這個其實在你們網站上都查得到啦加強宣導好不好這第一個提醒剛剛稍微你剛才也說這樣啦對阿說有錢賺要宣導嘛說有老闆走阿錢賺對我今天就要講就是要順著這個話題往下講就是談有關於這個碎石記憶放假相關的一些配套措施來"},{"start":5395.954,"end":5409.962,"text":"這個我先問一下把一個修法過程中的一個狀況把它問得清楚就是說我們在3月31號我們在進行這個紀念日及節日條例實施條例在審查的時候這當初來代表原民會的我們副主委中副主委就講說"},{"start":5411.643,"end":5432.196,"text":"沒有辦法考慮到社會的整體環境跟實際執行的情形如果族人要多放三天假會面臨不容忽視的挑戰比如說勞動市場處於不利的狀況就業機會的衝擊和族群關係的緊張他說因為原住民在勞動業比較多替代性很高所以要尊重實際需求找平衡點"},{"start":5433.337,"end":5447.691,"text":"那我們當然就問啊說我們希望讓原住民的勞工大家都知道勞工辛苦嘛就希望他工時降低一點不要血汗結果你們作為原住民主管機關自己在講說不要放太多比較好你是這個意思嗎這是你們官方的態度嗎"},{"start":5449.5,"end":5467.771,"text":"不是因為放三天假當然也要謝謝大宴的決定就是說這個可以讓我們在平地的特別是回到比較遠的這個部落裡面這個三天讓他有一個很好的這個時間可以完全的參加碎石祭儀啦這個是好的啦"},{"start":5468.342,"end":5488.443,"text":"那至於就是說這個就是考量到說因為我們所有的價平地放什麼價我們原住民就放什麼價也可以放嘛對那現在是我們原住民又多了這個三天的價那但是就也有一些朋友就說因為怕我們的這個公司行號會對原住民的這個朋友印象會不好啦"},{"start":5491.625,"end":5503.795,"text":"會讓我們的原住民印象不好但是就是說我們樂觀其成啦就是說對原住民的寄語放假大家要尊重就是說希望他們能夠在這個時間能夠完完整整的回去參加原住民的寄語"},{"start":5504.335,"end":5533.555,"text":"他代表原住民的文化價值當然要幫他捍衛這個事嘛不只是工時的降低回去參加碎石祭儀這些祭儀才有人參加才有保留和傳承的意義嘛所以這你當然要堅持嘛這我是覺得你都想太多了為什麼我講想太多了因為碎石祭儀往下延伸我們要讓它能夠落地還有兩塊部分要討論一個叫紅蘿蔔 一個叫棒子我就先講棒子 來這個 主委或者是大家都可以回答齁這個原民萬一在"},{"start":5535.757,"end":5559.338,"text":"職場被僱主欺負沒有辦法不讓他放這個假的時候僱主付什麼代價你知不知道那我們全國大概有10區的那個就業服務辦公室我們會有75個原住民的就業服務員會協助我們的勞工如果在這個相關有遇到一些相關被霸凌或是一些相關的一個職場就是要請這次要請碎石記然後如果老闆不讓請會發生什麼事"},{"start":5560.933,"end":5577.642,"text":"當然可以有申訴的一個制度申訴是跟誰申訴地方的那個勞應該是跟勞動體系嘛對不對因為如果勞基碼79條有明確規定如果違反第37條也就是應休假日未給予休假者除了台幣兩萬元以上一百元以下是罰還嘛"},{"start":5578.462,"end":5605.946,"text":"所以它其實是有政策工具可以做處理那政策工具處理這我們當然是希望大家遵守法令對不對你剛剛有講大家都要找勞動局或者就業服務系統那請問你原民系統有沒有特別針對稅值計議我剛剛為什麼講說這個東西的宣導要很清楚不能只有宣導嘛你還要有很清楚的申訴專線嘛我們要幫原住民的族人講話啊對不對那你們這邊有沒有相關的一些安排讓大家可以更清楚的知道規則然後知道可以這個權益可以被確保"},{"start":5606.546,"end":5629.499,"text":"我們有10區的一個救福辦公室75個救護員都可以來做一個協助那另外當然如果說還有更好的沒有法律輔助的一些相關的如果是從經過申訴之後有地方的一些勞動的一些單位我們也都會就近來去做一個轉介跟你剛講說你的10個那個救護員是原民會系統下面還是是的是原民會系統75個都原住民的一個救護員"},{"start":5630.459,"end":5650.732,"text":"這個部分你要一樣可能不打給這幾個服務站然後要讓所有我們基層的原住民的弟兄姊妹知道所以有所謂的申訴管道跟諮詢的專線跟申訴的管道好不好這不要只丟給勞動局因為雖然是降低工時但文化傳承也很重要這第一個提醒那我們兩位基金會的董事長兩位基金會的董事長不好意思"},{"start":5658.717,"end":5674.348,"text":"我要花一點時間問啦就是我們原住民碎石記憶放假你們有沒有帶頭做起啊這請兩位基金會的這個董事長文化基金會跟語言研究基金會你們會裡面同仁大部分是原住民朋友嘛對不對他們修這個碎石記憶架的人數有多少佔的比例是多少你們有統審過嗎"},{"start":5679.773,"end":5705.602,"text":"報告委員我們都鼓勵員工休假而且我們希望在碎石技的過程他可以學習文化所以我們的比例非常高都讓我們同仁你有數字嗎多少人多少人休7乘5不錯有做功課因為我們做電視作業廣播作業比較你也比較清楚有這一套嘛對不對好不好所以你要協助7乘5當然要再高一點嘛來另外"},{"start":5706.787,"end":5731.003,"text":"委員好,在演藝會的部分上,在過去還沒有制定,我們已經開始推動,所以在,呃,同時我們可以通過他主任的參與,然後去參與寫那個報告,回來所以要做一些的分享,以上。那比例啊,他剛剛講七成五有修,你們這邊呢?基本上我們這是,只要我們的族群的那個制定的時間,我們都會讓他們回去。"},{"start":5731.601,"end":5754.489,"text":"沒關係 你會後補也可以啦就是說你們到底多少員工原住民比例然後過去修碎紙記憶的比例是多少所以我為什麼要問這件事好 兩位請坐我們台視請主委就為什麼要去談這件事情的原因是因為剛剛講完棒子就是法規的規範你要紅蘿蔔嘛 就是獎勵跟示範嘛我丟一個 我簡單 因為時間到了齁我丟一個簡單的例子 我們的客委會對不對 就曾經在做這個"},{"start":5756.144,"end":5779.329,"text":"叫做你們原民會有114年促進原住民就業獎勵計畫嘛對不對有僱傭獎助嘛等等這些東西你當然應該要維持但你要課委會曾經做過多元文化的企業社會責任有課於友善企業獎也就是說他如果讓職場變課於友善對不對還有給予獎助給予補助給予鼓勵對不對你原住民這邊也是嘛原住民花更多的心力在討論"},{"start":5780.629,"end":5797.71,"text":"增加參與率嘛就業參與率嘛讓原民朋友的就業不要變成問題嘛那同樣的你們有沒有針對願意大量雇用原住民或者是說讓原住民有一個友善職場環境好的 這樣的一些企業你們有沒有做過統整有沒有做過鼓勵有沒有做過宣導請你回答"},{"start":5798.86,"end":5815.636,"text":"像這樣就是說對我們族人比較友善的我們都有做這個公開的獎勵那超額獎勵超額比如說他禁用他超額禁用我們也有給也會補助嘛對那是聘用的部分嘛那比如說以碎石祭這件事情來講我剛剛為什麼問兩個基金會那是你們的這個"},{"start":5819.039,"end":5838.853,"text":"帶頭示範嘛比如說原文會有7乘5對不對你們也要去調查一下到最後是稅時計上路之後到底大家休假的比例是什麼到底實務上他是被壓制的還是有被鼓勵的哪一些企業願意主動的配合法令讓原住民朋友降低工時維持文化傳承你就要幫他拍拍手嘛"},{"start":5839.293,"end":5862.659,"text":"你就要飲餓養善嘛 不是飲餓養善 這不能飲餓罰餓養善嘛 對不對你要鼓勵好的對的 然後讓這件事情有紅蘿蔔有棒子讓這個碎食技藝增加 看得到也要吃得到啦這是我今天本席在質詢的時候要特別提醒原住民族委員會謝謝相關的一些計畫 詳細的配套措施跟我剛剛問的一些資料 請你會有詳時提供 可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝好 我們謝謝劉許廷召委 下一位我們請張宏祿召委 謝謝"},{"start":5884.623,"end":5904.268,"text":"我們請曾主委曾主委有請這個主委我想請教一下我們平埔族的身份修法期限已經快到了不知道我們做的準備如何"},{"start":5905.643,"end":5930.439,"text":"不知道我們做的準備如何了在5月15號我們宴會已經通過那現在也已經送大宴送到宴裡面來我們希望很快的能夠排這個議程我們趕快來審讓我們的平埔原住民身分的族人早一點取得這個原住民的身分除了這個之外這個是法律上的嘛這個法律上的這個"},{"start":5931.823,"end":5954.105,"text":"已經大家都知道了幾年了嘛這個只是完成最後的程序而已啦我所請教的是那平埔族取得原住民的身份他的人數非常多耶是他的人數如果我沒有記錯的話他的人數應該比現行的我們平原加山原的人數還多喔"},{"start":5956.212,"end":5975.082,"text":"按照內政部的統計至少98萬人那現在山地原住民跟平地原住民才61萬人但是還是要跟委員報告這個就是說先原住民就是原住民族的這個認定之後再社會來再起的原住民的社會那最後會登記多少人"},{"start":5977.805,"end":5982.273,"text":"還不知道會登記多少人但是我們可以預判在今年底大概也會有10萬人來登記"},{"start":5986.628,"end":6009.681,"text":"我當然知道啦 他要去登記才可以取得啦但以我們現在的 手頭上的有資格的 接近百萬啦到底確實多少 我們也無從得知啦我要請教主委的是那你原民會 你忽然在未來 不要說忽然 在未來的幾年內啦"},{"start":6010.97,"end":6022.192,"text":"我相信啦應該幾十萬人去登記應該會有吧你們的預估咧對應該會相當於現在的原住民好那你所有的喔"},{"start":6023.135,"end":6043.966,"text":"原住民身份,在台灣具有原住民身份的人我們就不要說九十幾萬,快一百萬全部登記一半人去登記就好了啦你的業務量幾乎要增加一倍是對啊你的業務量增加,我剛剛請教你是說這些我們有沒有去準備要做什麼"},{"start":6045.322,"end":6071.319,"text":"不然你多了一倍的人要服務喔那你的原民會的人員夠嗎那你的經費夠嗎我覺得這個可能啦是原民會成立以來這麼多年來成立以來第一次遇到人數暴增將近一倍那你的業務量有可能會增加一倍喔"},{"start":6072.321,"end":6086.905,"text":"那我們有沒有及早去因應我簡單說就好了光他去登記然後去認證身份從地方政府到原民為什麼這些你就要花多少人力對這個我跟委員報告"},{"start":6090.322,"end":6116.767,"text":"那個整個原住民的人力增加我想我們也已經在盤點我們手頭上的一些資源當然這個資源一定是要再加的那馬上要做的就是要馬上一開始他們一登記我們馬上再做甚至現在已經有的在做了就是就他們的語言還有文化這個部分是第一要做的就是語言跟文化的部分我們持續要趕快的來協助他們"},{"start":6117.427,"end":6134.255,"text":"那至於就是說未來在這個人力上還有未來支援的這個藝術上我想我們一定會跟業靈妹來做報告我們也要想死的來盤查他們陸續會碰到不管是醫療啦不管是就業啦不管是社會福利等等我們都會盤點出來"},{"start":6137.309,"end":6162.736,"text":"我必須要說啦我們當初整個園民會設計的初衷跟架構其實是沒有平埔族原住民這一塊喔這個是一個相當大的轉變喔那你的服務的內容等等的這其實是從園民會成立以來這一個是非常非常巨大的轉變喔這個"},{"start":6165.185,"end":6184.466,"text":"也不是說立法院要怎麼樣喔我會覺得是說這個是我們原民會要真的要去及早應應去處理這些事剛剛主委你所說的他們的文化園那個要去重視要去保留那是一件事情那是原民會我說真的啦"},{"start":6186.184,"end":6214.048,"text":"這些事啊如果平埔族原住民啊他今天沒有有取得原住民的身份我們也要去做這件事而不是說他取得才做我們本來就要做了我現在可以預計的是你未來你龐大的服務量啊還有我平埔族我已經取得原住民的身份了對不對那我本身我到底可以享有哪些原住民的"},{"start":6216.498,"end":6237.664,"text":"他總總的法律上的他到底是有些他可以適用有些他可以不適用我相信很多你每天接到這個電話你的原民會就會封掉喔這一點我不知道我就舉這一點那主委我們要如何因應我跟委員報告他們取得原住民的身分之後"},{"start":6238.925,"end":6247.034,"text":"我想他們的這個潛力義務一定有優先的這個排戲我們也會跟他們做溝通做協調"},{"start":6248.208,"end":6273.009,"text":"那在憲判的精神是未來的三年我們會另立專法就是為我們的平埔族的族人量身打造要怎麼樣來這個對他們的權益我們還有我們有另立還是要另立一些專法來因為原住民目前適用的華麗不竟然也不當然絕對就可以適用我們現在的平埔族的族人"},{"start":6275.021,"end":6297.126,"text":"這就是我要請教主委的啦所以另立專法是我們現在的選項啦對不對那另立專法其實到時候我們會有很多很多的事情要討論喔不是你的專法一來大家就哇都照你的喔我相信每個人意見都不一樣喔"},{"start":6298.166,"end":6324.399,"text":"所以你在這個另立專法你不能期限到的時候你才來這個可能要有很多的社會共識很多什麼喔因為另立專法就會有它的權利跟義務跟它很多的東西會發生了然後跟既有的原住民族不管基本法或什麼的很多的法令也可能會有衝突的地方喔所以像這個我不知道專法的進度到哪了開始了沒"},{"start":6327.045,"end":6348.463,"text":"我們現在就是說因為現在是先趕快讓他們取得這個身份那之後我們馬上就會在年底之後年底之前我們就開始現在已經在跟我們的平埔族群的一些專家寫著我們先跟他們來做情誼就希望未來我們有一些什麼樣的話"},{"start":6350.884,"end":6372.202,"text":"還有我們也會做一些社會狀況的調查不是啦主委我剛請教你的意思說你要另立專法我不反對嘛你們開始啟動立法了沒因為這個很複雜喔你不要以為好像有幾年的時間喔很多問題基本的觀念可能沒有辦法解決喔你這個法令的名稱到底要叫什麼"},{"start":6373.919,"end":6389.173,"text":"要叫積分法 還是什麼法其實這個可能大家就會吵了喔對不對 因為這個都相關關係了很多的權力義務欸我是提醒主委說這一個是你原民會成立以來"},{"start":6390.643,"end":6411.585,"text":"第一次很大的一個變革很大的不一樣然後你要負任人數又那麼多還有相關法令的這個是非常複雜的如果你不及早因應我很擔心到時候會一團亂那一團亂的情況之下本來一個美意又變成了大家爭吵的一個焦點所以我覺得"},{"start":6412.526,"end":6436.715,"text":"你們應該要成立一個小組然後甚至跨部會因為這也牽扯到其他部會的事情不是只有你們園民會喔對不對現在就要開始密集開會討論開始炒你了開始做了啦不然你一定會來不及啦是好好好好謝謝謝謝謝謝張宏杜召委的諮詢下一位我們請黃婕委員諮詢"},{"start":6448.697,"end":6450.319,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請主委"},{"start":6458.171,"end":6481.317,"text":"好 曾主委好首先跟您請教一下這個我們高雄原博館的進度因為這個是對於整個台灣來說是非常重大的一個國家級的原住民族博物館那這個進度我之前有跟您詢問過非常多次了從去年到現在可是看起來進度是非常延宕的包括說原本其實早在一開始啊是2025年就說要開幕後來呢延到了2027又後來又延到2032年"},{"start":6487.438,"end":6509.372,"text":"那其實去年5月包括當時的陳建仁院長那包括我們幾位高雄的委員包括一些原住民族的委員我們一起到了該地去視察那當下其實那時候陳建仁院長是直接現場核定了第一期的工程58億可是到現在沒有任何的動工跡象那就我所知"},{"start":6510.052,"end":6539.512,"text":"中間的一些耽擱是因為去年8月的考試院的人事權因為被藍白杯葛嘛所以到去年下半年考試院的空窗導致於我們的籌備處的人事到今年1月才核定到4月才有辦法進駐以上是不是好謝謝委員的關心我們這個國立原住民族博物館的這個籌備處在今年的4月已經成立了籌備處已經成立了"},{"start":6540.212,"end":6566.533,"text":"那我們也會有一個驗警管在我們這個月就會公告然後下半年就開始施工施工大概在116年我們就會呈現下半年也就是兩個月後就會開始動工是這樣子嗎對 動工然後在116年初的時候這個整個驗警管就會蓋好大概是1.5公頃也就是兩年 一年半你們就會蓋好驗警管對 驗警管就會蓋好好"},{"start":6569.275,"end":6588.352,"text":"整個的這個那邊的這個整個戶地是14公頃那土地上我們已經處理了就說這個謝謝高雄市政府的協助那也都移撥給我們會裡面那還有一個比較大一點的就是10公頃的那個自來水的用地應該"},{"start":6590.954,"end":6611.655,"text":"現在是還沒有但是現在已經作業到後面了應該很快這個如果如果能夠一波的話就整個土地就算完整了所以我們陸陸續續都有他掌握他的進度好那這就是我要在這邊再次跟我們主委來拜託啊因為大家一直想說去年五月就合訂了到現在也一整年了為什麼大家看起來"},{"start":6612.376,"end":6635.429,"text":"整個14公頃還是雜草叢生然後毫無任何動工跟任何進度的跡象地方當然很擔心那當然我也知道中間經過各式各樣包括人事的杯葛包括各式各樣可能一些預算上面的問題等等所以讓大家覺得好像沒有進度但事實上我再複述確認一次兩個月後院警館就會開始動工然後一年半之後我們院警館就會蓋好對嗎"},{"start":6640.813,"end":6650.772,"text":"好那這個主委要拜託在這邊承諾那我也希望這個真的要如時如期的來進行那再來我也跟您請教一下"},{"start":6653.492,"end":6667.462,"text":"這個也是剛剛其實有提到因為其實昨天早上不知道我們主委有沒有看到我們有一些平埔族的朋友他們有開了記者會那就我所知因為我知道這個是根據憲判嘛今年10月28之前一定要立法這個是有實現的問題可是目前看起來其實包括我們現在的法定原住民包括山原平原然後包括這些還沒有被納入的平埔族"},{"start":6680.091,"end":6705.128,"text":"之間是有一些紛爭然後是有非常多意見還沒有辦法達到共識的我不知道主委在這中間有沒有去找各族群已經協調過或者是大家有沒有初步的共識了目前看起來如果連這個基本的共識都沒有很顯然上禮拜我們行政院院版送出的這個版本平埔族不滿意我們法定原住民也不滿意大家都不滿意那這個版本到時候要怎麼討論你告訴我"},{"start":6709.051,"end":6734.053,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個版本要出來之前我們就有辦過至少九場的這個公聽會說明會那這九場包括對現在原來有的山地影住民跟平地影住民我們也辦了至少辦了四場那還有五場就是對我們平埔族群也來辦類似的這個座談類似的這個公聽會也有跟他們做說明"},{"start":6735.154,"end":6759.363,"text":"所以才會有這個研究民主的這個生活法來那我想這其中當然有很多很多 這沒有那麼簡單啦三地研究民主就是一個非常複雜的議題非常複雜的也需要尊重各族群所以我才覺得你們要把握時間啊距離立法的期限快到了啊對 我們仍然要跟我們特別是平埔的這個研究民主的朋友"},{"start":6760.123,"end":6784.858,"text":"包括他們的專家寫者還有一些他們的地方上的一些幹部我們仍然要持我們一直在持續的做溝通那我們會裡面也有成立這樣的一個工作小組希望未來也能夠跨部會來來做做協調這個我想好那我就問一個基本的問題就好了因為我知道說其實目前內政部的歷史資料來看這個評普組可能算一算可能有98萬人是"},{"start":6786.639,"end":6812.93,"text":"是嗎 是好 那當然我認為這個平普族的正名運動是必要的只是說現在目前草案裡面23條就規定說本法實行後三年內必須完成制度或修正相關政治參與跟社會福利的制度設計那請問這個到時候要怎麼做這個就是大家最關心的政治參與跟社會福利到時候如果照你們的版本下去要怎麼修啊"},{"start":6814.572,"end":6825.156,"text":"這個社會福利我們還是要跟他們要做溝通確定他們這個整個身分都出來的時候我們會跟他們做溝通那政治參與因為很多的這個"},{"start":6827.938,"end":6848.884,"text":"三眼、平眼他們很擔心就是說這個平埔原住民進來以後對政治參議是不是有什麼改變其實是沒有啦就立法委員要改變這個選舉的話是要修憲的沒那麼容易跟這個不一樣所以包括各式各樣明帶或是地方的這種選舉的席次不會因此而影響"},{"start":6850.565,"end":6866.656,"text":"還有如果說未來地方政府也就是縣市議員的選舉即便是有這個平埔原住民他也是外加他不會衝擊現在的現在的3D原住民跟平埔原住民的選舉這個部分當然還是很多人不知道那當然我們還是要不停的來做這個說明"},{"start":6867.817,"end":6884.997,"text":"好謝謝這個真的要拜託因為然後還有包括社福的制度也很多人擔心說包括我剛剛說了嘛這個平埔族如果加入之後有98萬人可能擁有這個資格那這些人的社會福利要怎麼照顧怎麼規劃這個都非常重要好嗎"},{"start":6886.038,"end":6907.949,"text":"好 這個要拜託我們再加強溝通好 最後一點時間我來跟這個主委拜託一下因為其實五月初的時候有一位國民黨籍的前立委到中國參加七彩雲南相約台灣的活動然後在現場高掛兩岸一家心聯心的布條那這很明顯其實就是用文化交流的外殼內藏著文化統戰的事實嘛"},{"start":6909.71,"end":6938.709,"text":"那其實我們一直都知道說中共很容易把我們台灣的原住民的青年也好這種族群統戰的對象放在原住民族的身上這個其實都做過非常多的研究那甚至他們會用這種文化跟血脈來刻意的說我們都是少數民族我們都是炎黃子孫那我是不是可以在這邊拜託主委你們有沒有什麼對策然後可不可以說明原住民族是炎黃子孫嗎"},{"start":6941.391,"end":6963.202,"text":"對 這樣的一個案子我們都是我們是支持還有尊重兩岸的延居民族支持什麼 支持什麼就是說我們支持彼此尊重但是我們也嚴正的聲明台灣延居民族是屬於南島語系的這個族群那不是炎黃子孫啦是啊 歷史不容抹滅這個我們自己的族群的主體性怎麼可以這樣隨便被篡改歷史呢"},{"start":6965.803,"end":6980.092,"text":"所以在這個相關的這個互大陸交流的個案我們要嚴守我們自己的我們自己國家的法例那我們也不會就是說遭受對方的這個利用我們都有這樣的一個聲明"},{"start":6981.314,"end":7006.664,"text":"所以這個就是要拜託主委要知道說現在中共很明顯對於台灣很喜歡做的就是族群統戰嘛尤其是針對台灣的原住民族他們是用這近20年來都是用各式各樣的手法在籠絡也好然後辦這種文化交流但實質一直不斷的洗腦灌輸你我們都是什麼中國少數民族都用這種篡改歷史的方式在抹滅我們的族群主體性不是嗎"},{"start":7007.664,"end":7017.028,"text":"這個就是我們主委希望你自己要有意識我們整個園民會也要有這樣的意識去努力的保存我們自己的主體性好嗎好好 謝謝主委謝謝謝謝下一位我們請蘇曉慧委員質詢"},{"start":7034.451,"end":7037.468,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請主委曾主委曾主委有請"},{"start":7045.521,"end":7059.835,"text":"主委今天又是園民會的業務報告每次看到園民會的業務報告就覺得其實園民會真的很辛苦啦你看看這樣子一本小小的報告裡面包山包海從憲法層次的議題到內政到教育到衛福到衛政到經濟到環境文化"},{"start":7065.2,"end":7076.169,"text":"還要有外交呢這真的是原民會包山包海真的很辛苦啦應該說有原住民的地方就要有原民會這個同意嗎也覺得很辛苦啦對不對你不敢講"},{"start":7080.384,"end":7099.653,"text":"好啦但是我知道說資源有限量能也有限但是就是在這樣的狀況下我以為其實原民會最重要的工作其實是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度"},{"start":7100.713,"end":7119.447,"text":"對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做但是其他所有的部會對於原民議題沒有概念我覺得你要反向思考原民會其實最大的工作就是讓政府的其他部會有"},{"start":7121.509,"end":7144.828,"text":"這個文化的敏感度同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題主委你同不同意這個看法同意因為這樣的話你們是負責看別人怎麼做啊對不對自己其實可以降低你的業務量壓力但同時去讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要把預算亂花嘛"},{"start":7146.229,"end":7168.067,"text":"好 那我今天就用教育的這個題目來跟你討論你既然同意剛剛的說法 我就看原民會有沒有做到來 主委 我們的這個原住民族教育法裡面讓我們創設了兩個這個教育的體系嘛 制度一個是原住民族實驗教育學校一個是原住民重點學校主委請問這兩個制度有什麼差別"},{"start":7169.42,"end":7193.918,"text":"追尋法規目的都可以 簡答就好 好不好 簡答問題在後面 簡答就好了原住民中學校就是在原住民中學校裡面另外在做實驗教育的學校蛤 你確定要這樣回答嗎我想應該不是這樣啦好 那我這樣問好了 你覺得這個發動權在哪裡這兩個制度的話在地方政府"},{"start":7194.775,"end":7218.197,"text":"原住民重點學校是依據原住民教育法所規定他學生比例達到一定的比例就是原住民重點學校所以這個是對的沒有錯原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛他的只要原住民在這個原住民的地區裡面他的人數學生到達學校比例的一定數字或者是比例其實就是重點學校嘛對不對那實驗教育學校咧所以教訓室如果是"},{"start":7219.057,"end":7245.953,"text":"這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好來那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源師資人力等等會有差別嗎"},{"start":7247.173,"end":7271.13,"text":"如果是依照原住民教育法官原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對 沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標"},{"start":7272.745,"end":7289.432,"text":"我覺得村長你這樣打不是重點啦重點來我給你看我們在地方選區我自己在新北市嘛我們新北市是這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民所以很明顯你看我109年到111學年度我的國小跟國中高中"},{"start":7290.592,"end":7304.525,"text":"對不對 四重點學校是這一排好 你再看112年度到114年度它的重點學校一樣嗎然後我們就比大同國小就好了它這三年因為它有超過100它就是重點學校接下來它99人它就不是重點學校了所以它的師資就要重新調整啊對啊 然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊欸 怎麼會差一個人 差一個人"},{"start":7313.453,"end":7322.935,"text":"那整個狀況就不一樣我的丹鳳國小也是啊一下子是重點學校一下不是重點學校一下又是重點學校了那我到底是不是要禁用這個原住民級的教師"},{"start":7324.111,"end":7344.853,"text":"這不是才是問題所在嗎他的對原住民孩子的教育的延續性沒有一貫性嘛對不對好那我再跟你說這個這個師資的部分好了剛剛我有聽到原民會這邊在講嘛說你們對足語老師的這個認證方式這個要求的方式本來有足語的要求嘛對不對啊現在現在呢"},{"start":7347.115,"end":7361.76,"text":"過去是要高級現在我們調那個教育部因為資資的不足我們把它跟教育部合作調整為中高級好那一般教師咧一般教師沒有所以我們新北市要來當原住民籍的一般老師的認證主任認證還是高級啊"},{"start":7363.375,"end":7391.52,"text":"對啊 是高級啊 要有這個高級啊有啊 我們這個老師申請的資格其實各縣市也是是不一樣的啊我們在透過 你看各縣市的教師申試檢章剛剛舉行完嘛各縣市大多是採分流制將原住民考生歸為一組你看像台東縣 只要你是原住民籍出市的總成績就可以加10%但是新北市呢 除了是要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民族語能力認證高級以上啊"},{"start":7392.14,"end":7401.857,"text":"這是正式教師的正式對 我就是在跟你說一般教師正式教師啊那台東的跟新北的為什麼可以有這種差距因為這是各地方政府依照他們自己的正式的規定你的態度是什麼"},{"start":7402.85,"end":7412.958,"text":"我的態度認為這個事還是要尊重地方政府你什麼東西都尊重地方政府我問你你的態度是什麼一般教師他必須不是去擔任主委教師他還是做一般教學課可是你剛剛說我們的重點學校裡面要有這個族群的老師啊要有族籍的老師那我現在就是我現在又是重點學校了結果我的老師還是招不到啊"},{"start":7426.368,"end":7448.064,"text":"據說一般政治教師到學校去他不是單用主語教學工作他是做一般學校工作所以他的語言能力我們相對應該不需要到高級啦我的看法是這樣子可是對啊那我現在就是是啊我的教徵裡面我的教徵裡面就是新北市除了要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民主語的認證高級出示才可以加分啊那為什麼"},{"start":7448.644,"end":7455.349,"text":"那這是因為他是地方政府他自己針對他教師的需求你看我們不是鬼打牆嗎這是繞圈圈啊所以我的意思沒有這個不是這樣你看我們不是在討論誰可以變成是老師我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分嘛對不對我們是在討論加分政策那台東的話只要你是原住民身份我就加分新北市的話是除了原住民還要有主語認證嘛可是我們在應徵的是一般老師喔"},{"start":7478.764,"end":7483.007,"text":"對不對那只是你要求足以認證是可不可以成為加分的條件嘛所以我們在討論的是這個那但是因為牽扯到另外一個問題是如果是在這個重點原住民重點學校的時候他"},{"start":7494.475,"end":7508.58,"text":"成為重點學校他就要求要有族群的老師的時候那這種人很難找啊而且有時候我這三年是重點學校我就要老師啊明年我又不是重點學校了我可能就又不要了啊又要又不要"},{"start":7509.645,"end":7536.894,"text":"就難上加難嘛所以你要進入到新北市當這個有原住民籍身分老師你就少了比台東就少了一點這個加分的機會這也是實話啊那我問的就是你的態度是什麼我當然知道一尊重地方政府是一個大家都基本的態度啦但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情啦對不對然後回到今天的前提我剛剛在說的是"},{"start":7537.894,"end":7555.146,"text":"這些事情的主管機關對 都是教育部但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過嘛所以我的意思是說其實原住民的問題就像你寫的方方面面真的包山包海我們所有在社會上生活的問題因為我有原住民籍"},{"start":7555.726,"end":7576.186,"text":"就會通通都可以有另外一個管道解決或我會有另外的難處所以我們需要成立原民會嘛那我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上你們其實可以思考另外一種方式是你真的是用你的族群觀點 族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況這些問題 老師的問題 教育的問題"},{"start":7580.009,"end":7592.895,"text":"其實在教育部啊 主管機關也是教育部啊但是教育部可能沒有你懂問題在哪裡所以你去跟他講 反正最後錢也他出 規定也他做你就是在旁邊看說 欸 我覺得這樣比較好喔這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了我的學校 丹鳳國小 大同國小"},{"start":7604.707,"end":7620.722,"text":"因為有補助 今年可以開計畫案下一次 少一個學生變99人沒有補助了 這樣對嗎後年突然又說 又來了 又多一個學生了現在101個 又可以是重點學校了這樣不是很奇怪嗎所以今天在這裡 我想您的態度主委 講一下吧"},{"start":7631.124,"end":7646.321,"text":"我想要謝謝委員的指教那我想我們會主動來跟新北市政府希望請他們就是說剛剛講的那個希望不要那麼硬的是99個100個這樣子我希望說以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則"},{"start":7647.506,"end":7663.757,"text":"那個其實是教育部啦我們已經討論過跟教育部討論過很多次規定了啦但是因為一個委員就跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整因為那一調整是全國都會調整那個涉及到資源施支各式各樣方面所以才說原民會"},{"start":7664.557,"end":7684.368,"text":"要有態度這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛那我是很誠懇的建議啦大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態所以我是建議部會你們櫃會可以調整這個執行業務的思維多跟其他部會合作其實可以事半功倍啦謝謝好 謝謝謝謝 蘇強威委員下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢"},{"start":7700.899,"end":7703.08,"text":"請曾主委曾主委有請委員好主委預算之後第一次在這邊跟你做詢問謝謝那整個園民會在我們內政委員會預算的狀況算是不錯的喔整個內政委員會給予園民會很大很大的支持因為被刪的預算其實不多而且在去年度"},{"start":7731.417,"end":7755.215,"text":"包含去年度大家討論最多的建法補償增加的預算的部分到達了7億左右行政院現在也都跟園民會這邊也如期跟主計總署這邊都如期可以編出來了也如期可以發放了但是去年度還是有一些相關園民會的這些業務有被刪減"},{"start":7757.465,"end":7776.392,"text":"業務被刪減的部分我講的是原住民民主委員、聘用委員改成無給職這一部分這一部分影響到多少委員目前為止執行的狀況我想要請教主委的是有沒有委員因為這樣辭職了"},{"start":7779.079,"end":7804.393,"text":"都我們都已經他們全部都辭職了全部都辭職全部都辭職有的已經是大概一半以上都有別的工作了要去必須要去找別的工作了嗎是所以沒有辦法在為原民做這些相關的這些原本他在宣導服務等等這些那這些業務怎麼辦這些業務就回一樣回歸到我們這個各個業務單位比如說所以你就是要叫公務員去做這些事情了嗎"},{"start":7805.622,"end":7830.178,"text":"對就是當然我們的公務人員就會所以是族人領袖或者是這些族人的相關他們過去習慣或者是過去大家遵從這些領袖他可能就沒有這些業務費用可以使用他就辭職了是16個都辭了嗎對非常遺憾那接下來原民會接下來還會再徵聘委員還是有其他的救濟方式嗎"},{"start":7830.765,"end":7844.283,"text":"我們也尊重大議員的決議希望就是說我們在這個因為少了這些人就少了很多的工作量就少很多那我們希望禁用就是說這個"},{"start":7846.146,"end":7873.173,"text":"再禁用公務員 再多禁用公務員來承接這些工作我們也不一樣啊 這不一樣的訓練啊像我們民意代表我們選出來或者是當然不一定完全套用在民意代表身上啦跟經過國家考試的公務員他的訓練跟他主要的任務其實是完全不一樣的這大家都知道這沒有辦法取代的嘛那還是原民會這邊還是要去思考其他的救濟方式啊"},{"start":7875.219,"end":7889.808,"text":"他們因為這幾個委員他們是現在是沒有薪水了就是無極職了對啊就辭光了對但是就是有一些的這個評鑑或者是有一些的這個其中審查考核等等也不"},{"start":7891.009,"end":7916.763,"text":"縱然說是不會全部都還要用他們來去做我們還是需要他們來做一些考核評審等等的沒有錯這我了解只是說原本這些委員在做的這些業務不見了我覺得原民會還是要找一些救濟的方式來來補足原本的這些我們原本可以做的這些業務嘛那另外一個比較重要的議題就是在內政委員會今年度處理的節日跟紀念日的問題針對"},{"start":7918.188,"end":7938.18,"text":"原住民族的碎石祭可以給予三天假的問題在這邊我還是必須要既然這個已經通過了那我還是必須要從補救的角度來想當然我們支持說原住民族他在碎石祭的時候可以保有他的這些文化"},{"start":7938.88,"end":7953.36,"text":"原住民族必須要回去參加那三天這個就是社會討論但是也已經通過了但是事實上他在職場上即將會碰到的問題也就是說有些雇主們"},{"start":7954.537,"end":7977.611,"text":"他們會因為這樣第一個寧願繳罰金寧願繳貸金少禁用原住民族這個問題齁我們不要再罵雇主了他有他的算法但是我們還是要想怎麼樣來保護我們這些原住民族的這些就業的機會嗎第二個如果他真的在就業上遇到困難的話怎麼樣加強"},{"start":7979.191,"end":7996.836,"text":"我們剛剛有講到原住民族的這些就業服務站就業服務員跟勞動部怎麼樣去協助這些我們族人的這些工作機會我覺得這是我們即將遇到的問題啦那我們這些就業服務員對這些相關的這些跟勞動部的這些聯繫的實際的狀況我覺得原民會要馬上來做這些盤點"},{"start":8007.141,"end":8028.767,"text":"主委你可不可以我們會馬上就是這十個祭典還有要我們的就業服務員主動來協助其實我們的75個就業服務員 原住民的就業服務員會協助將來我們這些如果遇到這樣的狀況提供法律的諮詢你認為會遇到什麼狀況比如說像僱主有可能因為我那個原住民有三天我可能就不大禁用"},{"start":8029.287,"end":8057.019,"text":"但是未來我們會有相關的配套措施我們也會做一個盤點就是我們每年的原住民就業狀況調查當中會針對這些有沒有因為是禁用這個三列就不禁用原住民的這個我們會列入我們每年的調查那你有沒有這個相關的這些產業它其實它有繳交貸金的我建議你現在有資料嘛這一些就要開始控管了如果說明年度或今年度就開始發生這些繳交貸金的變多了"},{"start":8057.694,"end":8085.268,"text":"那就是代表出問題了嘛那就要趕快來做這些社會的溝通剛剛召委也有講到看是胡蘿蔔還是棒子那我們也支持用棒子啊但是事實上這是立法之後才發生的問題啦所以原民會身為主管機關保護原住民相關的這些權益等等的齁我覺得原民會要加緊注意這些內容是我們會好謝謝主委一共齁"},{"start":8086.468,"end":8114.156,"text":"今年度的預算一共122億那比去年度增加大概12億其中7億是進法補償那裡面還有5億那裡面還有5億的部分到今天即將要解凍的內容裡面那包括比較大的項目的裡面有原住民族教育推展那有原住民族教育推展裡面的兩項就高達了快1億6的經費"},{"start":8116.263,"end":8129.417,"text":"那我希望原民會等一下還是可以盡力說服當初凍結預算的委員讓原民會相關的這些預算可以很順利的來推動那目前包含你的業務費現在被凍結"},{"start":8134.765,"end":8163.036,"text":"一共被凍結超過五億還有這個族與教會一億一千萬那希望主委這一些相關的說法都可以趕快的獲得委員會的支持在這邊我先表達會對原民會的這些被凍結的預算支持趕快的來解凍但是我還是要表達對於南島民族論壇推動經費接近兩千萬全部被刪除切斷了台灣原住民"},{"start":8163.735,"end":8189.012,"text":"跟台灣原住民族跟整個南島的這些互動我覺得這是非常可惜啦那還是希望原民會這邊跟整個南島語系原住民這邊還是保持密切的聯繫活動那必要的時候還是請院長來協助看我們有沒有辦法來繼續來跟其他這些南島語系的這些原住民國家這就是外交的部分來保持一定的互動是好要跟院長爭取會會會好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":8195.427,"end":8198.992,"text":"好 謝謝李博弈委員現在我們請高金素美委員質詢現在招委有請主委主委有請"},{"start":8208.208,"end":8231.474,"text":"主委在這邊很多的委員們都很關心就是紀念日我們原住民記憶放假三天的問題那在這裡我要特別感謝我們的召委當時本席有提這個放三天假然後讓立法院都已經三讀通過了所以本席今天原本要在原基法處理的稅時記憶放假日就可以不用再處理了"},{"start":8232.094,"end":8251.003,"text":"但是呢我非常遺憾的就是我們在審法案的時候原民會一開始你們是支持的對吧主委在這裡我依然很記得你說你支持放假三天這是族人所期待的但是你知道嗎過了一陣子之後有一些執政黨委員紛紛的撤案尤其呢原住民的立法委員吳立華委員陳英委員也撤案了然後再一次在說明的時候呢"},{"start":8261.837,"end":8264.18,"text":"原委會的立場一時之間就不一樣了然後你們說什麼你們說呢我們如果放三天假的話我們的原住民就會沒有工作了是這樣子的嗎 主委"},{"start":8274.734,"end":8292.027,"text":"我們用數據來說話 看一下99年的時候法規命令 當時放一天假是法規命令我們首次納入放假一天假當時也是很多人說我們會有沒有工作啊但是我們的失業率是從5.90%降到隔年的5.32%這根本就沒有影響就業的問題啊"},{"start":8297.992,"end":8320.149,"text":"所以放假會沒有工作其實是執政黨你們的話術所以實際一放三天假是族人需要的今天再講清楚一點當時我們放一天假是用法規命令可是現在我們是法律規範可以放三天假老闆如果不遵守法規他要依據勞動基準法第79條要罰錢的"},{"start":8326.093,"end":8338.464,"text":"所以這不就是更加保障我們族人的權益了嗎那身為執政黨的這個圓明會也好或者是立委也好應該是要多多的像這些所謂的慣老闆來教育他們"},{"start":8341.667,"end":8361.233,"text":"原住民為什麼要放三天的假你們要做的是這件事情而不是在立法院測案然後站在冠老闆的這個角色上面然後跟他們說話然後不選擇跟主任站在一起我真的非常的遺憾耶主委你可以不用回答了但是呢我必須要講執政黨的立委"},{"start":8363.954,"end":8373.344,"text":"沒有在立法院投贊成的票我們在野黨的立法委員全力的支持所以現在以後你們要做的事就要教育這些慣老闆為什麼我們原住民要放三天假的重要性是哪裡第二點就是你們要趕快跟部落的族人說明因為族人會害怕"},{"start":8384.815,"end":8410.214,"text":"因為你們一直在講說放三天假我們老闆就不會用你們了 他們會害怕所以是有法律依據的對不對是必須放的對不對如果不放假會被罰錢對不對好 既然是有這樣子被保障那你們應該就要幫族人做一些法律程序上的一些鋪陳 對吧希望我能看到你們要怎麼做另外"},{"start":8411.4,"end":8434.93,"text":"我們回到基金運用上面為了都會區的族人的居住權益我呢有要求綜合發展基金必須要納入社宅投資的項目請問主委你們的看法是什麼這個我跟委員報告有關這個我們這個興建這個社會住宅他基本上還是要地方政府來"},{"start":8438.8,"end":8451.918,"text":"統籌這個業務統籌這個業務我同意那至於就是說這個是內政部來協助我也同意對但是您知道嗎主委你的立場是什麼就簡單講一下今天時間有限是你的立場支不支持"},{"start":8454.4,"end":8465.465,"text":"我們來看一下行政院其實在解凍報告裡面也說投資社會住宅是符合規定的第二個基金還有45億未來還會適時的由公務預算來撥補協儲行政院的說法他說我們的法規是容許並且基金還有錢"},{"start":8477.871,"end":8504.66,"text":"這是都是從正面的方向去吧可是主委你知道嗎 園民會呢到114年1月你們基金可動用的只剩下2.1億了對吧 主委好 請問一下到底我們行政院說我們還有45億園民會說只剩2.1億到底我們的基金還有多少錢啊靜止44.6億可動用的資金可以動用的資金大概是11.6億"},{"start":8506.397,"end":8526.271,"text":"可以動用的啦可以現在等於是現金嘛 對不對可以動的是11億14億點6億好 請問一下如果基金沒有錢的話我們的微小貸款啊 修上房屋啦這些貸款就會全面停擺了對不對那請問這11億現在還可以做嗎"},{"start":8530.171,"end":8546.431,"text":"都動得了嗎有在做 跟委員報告截至三月底為止的話那今年度基金的預算在貸款款是6.8億那已經貸放了312件那那個貸放的資金那這樣子還剩多少"},{"start":8548.188,"end":8571.03,"text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告截至4月底為止等於說可動用資金還是有11.6億好所以我們可以看到綜合發展基金只剩下11.6億已經沒有都快沒有錢了對不對所以呢我有提案要修正原基法綜合發展基金的總額不可以低於新台幣100億元我是來拯救我們的綜合發展基金主委你支持嗎"},{"start":8572.094,"end":8588.323,"text":"支持你支持嗎?支持好謝謝記得你今天說的話喔不要到時候我們在這邊又放的時候你們又不有意見喔來另外我要問族人最關心的問題了就是九月份依法我們的族人可以領得到一公頃六萬塊的進法補償嗎?"},{"start":8593.046,"end":8619.991,"text":"對可以嗎可以你知道9月份就要放了喔對9月以後就請問一下你知不知道行政院已經針對總預算提出釋憲囉是是吧齁如果再提暫時處分所謂的追加預算就沒有辦法進行囉主委你知道這個嚴重性吧是好如果沒有追加預算的話我們基金也剩下11億根本不夠請問族人的補償金要怎麼辦"},{"start":8623.016,"end":8641.343,"text":"說清楚現在主任都在聽這個部分的話就是說除了晚會動用基金本身的預算跟調度相關的資源另外等於說行政院那邊可能晚含也會適時可以協助行政院要怎麼協助他追加預算不能夠用啊那要用哪裡"},{"start":8644.151,"end":8667.96,"text":"而且你剛剛說你的那個綜合發展基金只剩下11億啊然後如果微銷貸款什麼都交在一起的話你會影響到綜合發展基金應該要用的業務而且錢也不夠啊跟委員報告那個基金因為今年度的預算那個基金預算應該是分次等於說撥入的所以後面還會有那個分配款進來"},{"start":8669.566,"end":8692.594,"text":"分配款會多少所以你的意思說基金不夠的在公務預算不夠的現在還是要用綜合發展基金來撥補囉的意思嗎那主委你覺得這是長期應該要做的事情嗎這個過去都是用這樣的方式但是我想未來應該是直接在預算裡面在公務預算嘛對不對所以這一次行政院公務預算給你們多少錢"},{"start":8693.755,"end":8698.14,"text":"28億28.6億根本就不是我們一公頃6萬塊所以它是減半所以我們只剩下多少還有多少是沒有在公務預算裡面可以撥補的"},{"start":8711.104,"end":8735.836,"text":"大概是23億左右好現在終於大家都清楚知道了行政院並沒有把義工請6萬塊的錢通通在公務預算裡面撥足另外不夠的部分他還是要違法由綜合發展基金裡面來做這是不對的卓偉你剛剛也一直說了希望以後行政院不要再用這種方式來"},{"start":8738.284,"end":8742.473,"text":"來給依法通過的禁法補償六萬塊所以我們可不可以這樣說"},{"start":8744.574,"end":8769.176,"text":"明年的預算我們希望在公務預算裏面補足一公頃六萬塊真正的淨法補償金你們有必要努力會 我們會努力會努力用這個基金來支應淨法補償它並沒有違法因為以前也都是這樣做啦那當然我們希望未來直接從公務預算那是比較恰當啦"},{"start":8770.615,"end":8786.144,"text":"那既然沒有違法為什麼這次要在公務預算裡面編然後不編足以前也是這樣以前也是這樣以前沒有啊以前是3萬塊啊是通通在公務預算然後交到綜合發展基金以前是公務基金都有啊對啊"},{"start":8787.537,"end":8803.974,"text":"好了主委我給你一個任務希望你趕快在明年的預算下一次的預算要在公務基金裏面補足可以嗎有啊加油好謝謝要公務預算喔是多少錢一公頃六萬塊的話一公頃六萬多少錢嘛52億多"},{"start":8805.896,"end":8811.538,"text":"應該是52.15所以我們在下次的公務預算就會看到52.15億是完全放在公務預算所以今年九月份我們的不足的部分 原民會想辦法如果我們的行政院不給你們你們會從你們自己預算裡面去挪的意思嗎"},{"start":8831.051,"end":8838.256,"text":"那會怎麼樣來講清楚一下我們還是要跟行政院爭取行政院怎麼給你從什麼預備金嗎我剛剛就說了追加預算如果他騎市線然後暫時處分那追加預算是不能夠用的啊那要從哪裡我們會積極爭取可能他也許會從預備金來給我們也有可能"},{"start":8857.472,"end":8884.571,"text":"不要講可能 九月到現在已經五月底了你知道你的主計長說什麼嗎現在他已經不認追加預算了耶鄭天才委員在經濟委員會裡面財政委員會裡面質詢他的時候他已經不認行政院長簽的那個追加預算了已經不提這個了主委您知道嗎 園民會已經被行政院穿小鞋了好吧 因為我的時間要到了 最後我要問你的就是"},{"start":8885.97,"end":8891.077,"text":"部落工法人事辦的計畫請問一下最終的目標是什麼要完成的目的是什麼"},{"start":8892.813,"end":8914.061,"text":"主要就是讓我們的部落齁能夠部落自主的來決定自己的事情所以是走向自治嘛對不對那為什麼一步到位走向自治然後呢你要弄這個示範計畫然後這個示範這個所謂的這個部落公法示範計畫其實就我了解長期以來原住民的社會還有鄉鎮市長是反對這個計畫的所以呢你現在"},{"start":8918.223,"end":8940.274,"text":"不好好跟主任溝通你反而這一意孤行的黑箱事辦現在呢五個部落可以做事辦我們真的覺得很奇怪740個部落為什麼就這五個然後一年可以拿到一百萬然後六十萬是人事行政費到底是要幹嘛然後你要讓他們自己跟這些部落的原住民的鄉鎮市鄉民代表部落裡面產生一些衝突嗎"},{"start":8946.018,"end":8975.093,"text":"我跟委員報告之所以挑這五個部落我就擠一個一齡部落來講好了那這個那為什麼不要公開甄選為什麼只有五個為什麼不要740個部落都一起來示範我想我們先做這五個然後在這五個部落當中我想為什麼挑他們因為我覺得他們的這個核心的幹部他們很容易有一個共識不是啦 你共識完畢未來你示範你要讓這些人去做什麼事情嘛"},{"start":8976.033,"end":8983.282,"text":"他可以拿到一百萬啊對不對那一百萬他要做什麼他要交什麼報告他要在這個鄉裡面取得未來這個部落自治的共識嗎各位報告如果沒有怎麼辦請問諸位你說這五個部落"},{"start":8991.633,"end":9018.014,"text":"對啊如果沒有取得共識沒有好好的做你還會繼續辦下去嗎還是只有今年或明年因為明年就要選舉了大家都知道你會不會因為這樣子然後挑一個會選舉的部落然後這些人其實是在幫某些人在做一些選舉的工具其實不會好不會那請你要告訴我這五個部落他以後我們花了五百萬嘛對不對五個部落一個部落一百萬嘛因為我們"},{"start":9021.024,"end":9034.9,"text":"我們提出了 他們提出計畫 我們也要看不是啦 現在已經是五個部落了嘛 五百萬嘛那未來他的目的是什麼 最終的目標是什麼你要不要定一下"},{"start":9036.101,"end":9042.806,"text":"要不要定一下最終的目標是希望這個部落可以我必須要講一下我們必須要一套規則是公平參與這才是制度而不是維民會你想怎樣就怎樣你如果沒有一個非常好的制度我們是部落是沒有辦法信任你們的你反而會產生很多的對立面主委我是提醒你"},{"start":9059.98,"end":9069.171,"text":"最後最後今天我們要談的是解凍案如果我們看不到所謂的制度健全我想有非常多我在這邊執意要凍結的預算我一定會凍結那原文會我要提一下請你們趕快找一點時間"},{"start":9076.92,"end":9105.78,"text":"你們到現在仍然拒絕提出合理的薪資結構表 主委 要求他在我審他們要解不解凍的預算之前所謂的合理的薪資結構表再拿不出來的話我今天依然是要凍結他們預算我會持續來監督嚴格的要求改善我認為這不僅僅是政策的問題而且是對我們的族人最基本的公平的交代 好不好"},{"start":9106.901,"end":9127.56,"text":"最後原住民原財我們流動率非常高在總預算的時候行政院院長有交代一個月之內要給我一個檢討報告請問什麼時候給我委員我們已經應該我們的報告都已經都已經提出去了5月15就送出去囉請問一下助理我們有收到嗎"},{"start":9132.674,"end":9158.165,"text":"我沒有收到喔 主委好 沒有收到我們馬上就可以 有人在這裡我沒有收到因為提案的人是我 你們不給我 真的很奇怪有啊 有寄到辦公室喔 午夜十五寄到辦公室在這裡好 待會我們會解凍你們預算 我們一一還是要審查謝謝這是我們立法委員應該做的工作謝謝好 謝謝 高金素美委員的諮詢報告委員會 我們在徐益臻委員諮詢完之後休息五分鐘現在請徐益臻委員諮詢"},{"start":9163.975,"end":9191.798,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請曾主委曾主委有請委員好主委好 賴清德總統在去年1月競選總統的時候有說過當選總統後要將原住民落實自治推動主語的富裕 重視原民健康權栽培原民人才跟恢復部落的生活機能請問主委 您擔任原民會的主委已經一年了賴總統所說的落實原住民族的自治實施了嗎"},{"start":9192.898,"end":9204.856,"text":"各位委員報告原住民的自治不是一次就到位所以我們希望我們先事辦公法人讓我們的部落先學習怎麼樣來自己決定自己部落的事情"},{"start":9205.512,"end":9231.203,"text":"所以去年我有諮詢過您這樣子一個您剛上任的時候但是目前不要說立法啦連草案都還沒有完成那當然原住民現在目前的自治法原是根據地方制度法所制定的那直轄市的原住民的區長原本是沒有辦法與選舉產生那是在馬英九總統執政時期提出的行政院的版本修法賦予直轄市的原住民主有自治權"},{"start":9232.003,"end":9253.031,"text":"那但是跟原住民族的自治法的立法的差異還是有很大那根據你們剛剛的業務報告針對原住民族自治法的草案的推動進度只寫了會保障原住民族自治權研擬原住民族自治法草案並徵詢各界意見將循法製作業程序辦理"},{"start":9253.951,"end":9282.368,"text":"你用了44個字 含標點符號落實原住民自治是賴清德總統的政見之一那請問何時可以提出草案根委員報告 其實我們原住民自治法草案是已經有一個新的版本但是我們接下來就是要去爭取族人的意見爭取族人 那去年一年都沒有爭取族人的意見嗎去年我們是先研擬草案"},{"start":9282.964,"end":9308.033,"text":"那草案延領了一年現在出來了現在要徵詢主任的意見是這樣嗎那我們預計大概要徵詢多久我們大概會排定因為我們大概如果說預算解凍之後我們才有經費去辦這個意見徵詢預算解凍啊不是等一下就會解凍了嗎那我們大概需要大概需要半年的時間半年的時間好那半年的時間你們徵詢完之後理論上是原住民的草案就是半年後應該就可以提出了是嗎"},{"start":9310.166,"end":9334.661,"text":"因為我想針對這個部分因為民長已經執政9年了但是到現在為止都還沒有提出過草案供立法院審查所以要請原民會要多多加油那另外我想請教你就是落實原住民族基本法第二條第一項所揭示的部落自治精神在114年4月7號有啟動剛剛你有提到部落公法人的事辦計畫那並責定了台東縣的都攔部落"},{"start":9338.283,"end":9354.537,"text":"花蓮縣的薩古爾部落、屏東縣的義陵部落、屏東縣的大武部落跟南投縣的旺鄉部落這五個部落作為示範區那主委我查了一下這五個部落的人口數就是我現在你可以看到的表上的數字"},{"start":9355.658,"end":9382.095,"text":"那另外呢我還查了像包括台東縣的馬老部落有1887人台東縣的大鳥部落有1165人台東縣的金輪部落有1255人花蓮縣的泰巴索部落有2463人花蓮縣的馬太安部落有2469人等等這些都比你挑的五個這個部落示範區還要多人那請問為什麼你挑這五個部落"},{"start":9384.226,"end":9411.949,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這幾個部落就說是有幾個是山地原住民鄉的部落他本來部落的這個大概他的人口數也就是500到400人左右是這樣只有那個杜蘭部落他是平地原住民鄉還有這個沙古爾部落所以他的人數會比較多一點所以你本來就是責定只能500人所有的部落嗎"},{"start":9412.509,"end":9431.915,"text":"不是因為我們認為這幾個部落他的範圍固定還有他的人口數沒有那麼多然後他的部落這些不管是村長也好代表也好議員也好還有地方上的社區理事我們都觀察過他們的互動都很好"},{"start":9432.335,"end":9448.403,"text":"跟你的互動比較好還是跟一般人的互動比較好跟族人的互動比較好其實其他人互動都不好沒有誤會了齁這裡面沒有一個是我的部落也沒有一個是我的鄉那其他的人的互動部落都不好喔你的意思是這樣嗎跟部落的互動都不好不是說其他都不好我們認為 那請問一下那蘭嶼呢蘭嶼的島族部落咧"},{"start":9452.624,"end":9469.911,"text":"我覺得他更適合你講的這樣就是他就是一個完整的部落更固定那當然因為蘭嶼有更多的這個考量那我們想就是說這個總是第一波我們先做讓我們先做做看那請問你有沒有徵詢其他部落的意見還有怎麼選定這幾個是由我們園民會自己"},{"start":9474.202,"end":9499.707,"text":"決定要選這五個嗎這幾個部落是我們會裡面討論討論的結果希望我們會裡面不管是副主委也好還有所以就是由上而下沒有徵詢其他部落嗎我也徵詢他們的意見然後我們有下去跟部落先做溝通哪個部落 你跟哪個部落做溝通比如說這個大五 義理你跟這五個部落溝通當然好我只是你跟其他的部落有沒有溝通也沒有"},{"start":9500.487,"end":9505.368,"text":"不是說他願意我們就一定要跟他走因為你這樣子可以比如說示範8個月給100萬的補助那其他的這5個示範部落在8個月的時間可以領到這100萬那未來如果有相關的競爭的機會"},{"start":9517.452,"end":9535.398,"text":"因為他們這五個是示範區所以他們可能就可以優先有這樣子的一個機會可以直接跟中央爭取更多的權益那其他的部落就輸在起跑點了可以說是連這個報名表都拿不到那這個部分的話事實上看起來就是制度性的圖利還有排擠性的分配"},{"start":9536.735,"end":9554.026,"text":"我跟委員報告像其他的部落不在這五個部落裡面有的時候他們爭取的機會都遠遠超過剛剛所講的機會那誰哪一個部落你可以舉例一下嗎就是說我們這個事辦計畫這五個部落他們所爭取的機會主委我想請教一下現在有沒有補救的辦法否則的話我剛剛講了嘛"},{"start":9558.809,"end":9573.229,"text":"其他的部落也想要爭取成為這個示範區可是呢是由你們由上而下決定這五個部落那其他的部落如果也想成為示範區有沒有什麼補救的辦法難道要這樣一直讓這種不公平一直持續下去嗎"},{"start":9574.21,"end":9598.838,"text":"跟委員報告是不是讓我們這五個部落因為現在已經五月底了到年底只剩下大概半年多一點時間那你四月才開始的也不過才開始一個月那你告訴我說到年底你才開始一個月如果錯了就要改啊不是用這種方式啊或者是說要不然你要不要再多幾個部落來去做示範呢我覺得這也是一種方式啊明年我們就希望"},{"start":9599.398,"end":9612.004,"text":"能夠有更多的部落因為不要讓大家覺得這種是制度性的圖利圖利這幾個部落都是由原民會來決定由誰來做我覺得不要讓外界有這樣的感想啦那另外針對這個台東太馬里大武達人等地設置33支陸域風力發電機還有海岸線成功鎮到長濱設置25組的陸域型風力發電"},{"start":9621.989,"end":9637.914,"text":"然後台東從南到北就有58支風力發電機所以地方非常強烈的募買已經組成了長濱反風電自救會那請問主委知道東部的風電開發案嗎開發商有沒有依照原住民族基本法第21條的規定向部落諮詢並取得同意或參與"},{"start":9644.727,"end":9668.338,"text":"這個資商同意的正式的送案啦所以你的意思是說目前沒有經過你們的諮商跟徵詢是嗎還沒有正式送案喔就我所知道那這個風機的環評預備會議在台東開過一次會議請問園民會有派人參加嗎那有沒有通知族人到這個出席區一起發表意見呢環評沒有"},{"start":9670.168,"end":9687.057,"text":"沒有環評預備都沒有那也就是說在這過程中都不必去問部落不必去了解這個我們族人的意見都沒有這只是初步的規劃而已那所以等到他都規劃好告訴你要設了那你原民會才說喔那對不起我們都還沒有參與因為還沒成案"},{"start":9690.154,"end":9718.351,"text":"所以主委 我想原住民 我想原民會你們應該是要捍衛原住民的權益啊所以你們要勇敢的表達立場你應該在行政院會的時候向經濟部抗議啊不可以讓原民 這個在攸關原民的權益所以你們應該要積極的參與而不是用這種方式說沒有沒有 到最後設立之後然後再來說我們不曉得已經設立了因為不是我的主管機關所以麻煩原民會要拿出你們的魄力來捍衛我們原住民的權益"},{"start":9721.2,"end":9723.269,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝許一貞委員現在我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10133.48,"end":10144.866,"text":"好 請各位關於委員會座報告委員會我們繼續開會然後我們中午不會休息跟委員會做一個報告現在我們繼續詢答 下一位我們請徐欣穎委員質詢好 謝謝主席 本席請曾主委曾主委有請"},{"start":10168.401,"end":10192.073,"text":"主委好 本席想請教我們這個台灣有少子化的問題請問原住民有沒有少子化問題有沒有統計也有啦 也有少子化的問題有嘛 對那有少子化我們全國上下大家都有一個共識既然生的少我們就要好好的給他最好的教育人這個"},{"start":10194.299,"end":10219.258,"text":"下一代已经人数不够了每一位我们都要想办法让他潜能发挥给他受最好的教育本席在这里今天要为一群长期被制度边缘化的年轻人来发声他们长期被制度冷漠的对待我要说的是我们原住民大专院校的学生"},{"start":10220.439,"end":10242.072,"text":"那我們看到教育部的統計數字全台灣大專原住民學生在112年大概有2.5萬人那但是當年度就中途離開學校的比例有多少主委您知道嗎就是中途離開的學生對2點幾吧2點幾2點幾%嗎你確定"},{"start":10250.438,"end":10256.083,"text":"我跟主委報告112年原住民學生有2.5萬人休學的就有3254人佔了13%退學的有3401人又佔了13%這兩個加起來已經超過四分之一了"},{"start":10273.692,"end":10300.5,"text":"所以我們在這裡要先問的是主委你知道原因是什麼嗎您剛剛竟然講2%距離差別太大了吧是你所知道數字的10倍您知道什麼原因嗎大概是經濟因素經濟的因素跟家庭的因素您竟然知道經濟的因素跟家庭的因素那你們有想要協助他們嗎"},{"start":10301.991,"end":10320.985,"text":"你們有做出任何的關心任何的協助去減少這種情況嗎我要說的是我們不能只看報道率不看完成率這樣的情況是教育公平的假象你們這樣做半套嘛"},{"start":10322.014,"end":10347.73,"text":"我們每一年都有編這個兩億的獎助獎助寫進來幫忙我們大專寫生但是因為可能是實在是因為是家庭的因素他沒有辦法所以你們有編兩億那結果我們這個中途離開學校不管是休學退學的佔了26%那你有沒有要想辦法解決改善這種情況"},{"start":10350.12,"end":10368.861,"text":"有 我們會責成教文署跟教育部陣營我們是不是 那本席想請教可不可以建立跨部會機制因為我想 除了原民會你們還要跟教育部整個來聯合來做這種聯防機制來實施這種休學或退學的預警制度"},{"start":10369.682,"end":10388.147,"text":"可不可以今天本席質詢之後你們朝這個方向來盡力來協助年輕人他是我們國家未來的棟樑好好的栽培啊那接著本席要追問要繼續追問其實除了經濟家庭的因素之外你們還有沒有發現有什麼其他的因素"},{"start":10394.298,"end":10420.656,"text":"造成這些學生他為什麼要休學為什麼要退學除了經濟家庭因素一定還有次要的因素可能還有一點就是他的興趣還有他學習的成績的問題他學習的成績如果他一直沒有成就感或怎麼樣他就會先離開那你有沒有聽過原民專班這件事有啊那你知道原民專班現在有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":10422.287,"end":10445.485,"text":"因为你讲到学习兴趣嘛那你他为什么不能支撑他念完大学四年主委你那么优秀你们的副主委还有我们的高金委员我们郑天才委员卢宪一委员都这么优秀我们希望有更多更优秀的受到很好的教育他可以适性的发展他可以发挥他的所长他在学校期间碰到了什么困难学习"},{"start":10448.109,"end":10473.555,"text":"原民專班的問題你們知道嗎應該是碰到了學習的困難那為什麼會有學習的困難原民專班你們有關心嗎因為這是為原民的學生設置的專班那現在原民專班有什麼問題你們知道嗎好 那是不是我們前處長這位是阿文你好 我是教育文化處處長教育文化處陳處長"},{"start":10476.024,"end":10495.563,"text":"是 謝謝委員的指教 我想 原民專班 我們原民會每年都有固定的補助來協助他們開辦相關的好 你都補助 你現在就告訴我有錢有錢 但是你知道他發生了什麼問題 有什麼不足 還有什麼你們要加強協助我們這些年輕學子的嗎"},{"start":10496.243,"end":10522.174,"text":"我想在那個師資的充實上學校可能還要再繼續加油對很好師資不足資源分配不均所以這一塊主委我們陳處長講了我們是不是未來可以積極的來改善可以會我們應該要有年度原民專班的評鑑機制嘛那納入學生支持成效與後續"},{"start":10523.942,"end":10539.281,"text":"追蹤的一個機制你們要有這樣的一個數據或者是要這樣去了解啊是不是可以喔還有我還要再繼續追問除了原民專班問題"},{"start":10541.618,"end":10560.838,"text":"我不知道你們有沒有發現在學校還有一些他們這個適應不良甚至就是他們感受到在校園裡不友善的對待這個你們有沒有委託相關學者來做研究 有沒有"},{"start":10562.535,"end":10582.874,"text":"這個其實是我們長期一直在關心學生在學校受到的歧視的問題那我們在跟教育部合作在所有的大專校園都是有原住民學生資源中心透過資源中心來對學校的原住民孩子做關懷資源中心如果他沒跟你反映你資源中心有主動做任何的調查有任何的數據支撐嗎"},{"start":10584.741,"end":10601.71,"text":"我們每年都會去跟大部分的我們每年跟研資中心都有定期的會議在做他們業務的的訪試然後通過這個訪試來瞭解各個中心對學生的關懷跟歧視的懸導這方面本席有看到啦有一些學者有一直"},{"start":10602.677,"end":10630.708,"text":"在做很多的研究有75%达到四分之三的我们原住民的同学在学校感受到不友善的对待那这个不友善对待有部分可能是同学之间然后有将近16%是来自于教职员所以我们希望这一块不会是压垮我们原住民学生的最后一根稻草"},{"start":10631.348,"end":10657.737,"text":"所以這個部分也要來加強改進可以嗎可以我們希望下個會期在做業務報告的時候我們希望看到你們具體的一些掌握還有成效那最後我本期再用一點點的時間就是在你們的業務報告書面報告裡面有提到行政院原住民族基本法推動會在我們卓榮泰院長主持之下"},{"start":10659.938,"end":10683.624,"text":"這個持續的要為了精進原住民的健康權社福權等等的保障那要來逐步縮減社會原住民族與社會各項的指標差距主委你知道這件事吧因為你應該在現場吧開會的時候請問有沒有盤點哪些指標落後有沒有有沒有盤點"},{"start":10686.159,"end":10707.158,"text":"跟委員報告一下 那我們相關所有設計的人都有一些差距 比如說像我們的平均移民室差OK 所以有盤點 所有的差距 那請問有沒有改善方案以及績效的期限你們有沒有設定 有 我們都跟跨部會合作 那跟衛福部合作那就跟薪資有關係 有沒有 這個 有 那會後提供給本席可以嗎 好"},{"start":10707.919,"end":10736.504,"text":"那最后最后这个原住民自治有这个部落公法人的制度这个在十年前105年就已经办理这个法规草案的预告各方面现在十年后你们才要出办找了几个部落来出办造成其实很多原民团体都起来抗议这个大家在问是不是原住民自治最大的障碍就是原民会"},{"start":10737.765,"end":10747.351,"text":"所以請問你們現在試辦預計什麼時候要有成果以及真正開始落實會不會又要再十年後最後回答本席這個問題"},{"start":10749.738,"end":10769.611,"text":"不會 不會十年後啦那你們預計事辦到什麼時候成效然後預計什麼時候要來實施有沒有期程今年只是一個這五個部落的事辦那明年我們會擴大更多的事辦那本席的問題是那你有沒有預計什麼時候可以真正落實原住民自治"},{"start":10770.371,"end":10788.967,"text":"這個至少要有兩三年以上的行程兩三年 然後明年你說明年會整個擴大來辦理好 我們希望這是原住民朋友的期待不要再一個十年 謝謝好 謝謝徐欣盈委員下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":10811.124,"end":10827.028,"text":"主席各位委員曾助委好這個今天有這個業務報告還有這個解凍案還有法案在今天你的業務報告裡面特別提到原住民組織法標題是原住民組織法"},{"start":10832.759,"end":10859.716,"text":"然後還要研擬原住民組織法草案早就有了原住民組織法我在當企劃處處長的時候就草擬了我當副主委的時候就完成了還要研擬什麼呢然後無論是陳水扁總統或是尤其是馬英九總統都有送原住民組織法到立法院"},{"start":10862.218,"end":10885.708,"text":"只不過是送來說太晚了沒有完成所以退回去借其不聯繫所以都有了現在還在研擬這個真的是一個我們接下來就不用回答了但是要欠珍珠不要像某人"},{"start":10887.251,"end":10910.148,"text":"連送草案到立法院 到行政院都沒有啊最起碼要送行政院啦不要把責任全部扛在自己身上它很偉大的責任當初原住民族自治的一個好這裡面大家都在關心部落公法人的事辦請問一下這個經費要從哪裡支應"},{"start":10916.912,"end":10942.951,"text":"我們從這個綜合規劃發展這個經費還有從這個綜合發展基金來支出這個經費這個經費你們的預算自用說明裡面沒有這些預算自用說明沒有這些所以你們是挪用好我們接下來我們接下來看"},{"start":10943.863,"end":10972.534,"text":"原住民族基本法第四條剛剛講了要制定這個原住民族自治法趕快定趕快送已經早就有草案了很重要的今天談部落公法人這是本席所提案的然後立法院三讀通過部落公法人延期法第二條之一寫得很清楚部落經中央原住民族主管機關核定者為公法人"},{"start":10973.689,"end":11002.775,"text":"所以要先要一 第二項要訂這個部落公法人的設置辦法這是授權 延民會自己訂喔法例授權 中央延民會自己訂所以公佈施行之後 104年12月16號馬英九公佈施行林江一主委很快的在105年5月3號卸任之前喔訂了部落公法人設置辦法"},{"start":11003.598,"end":11031.475,"text":"然後你們也預告了105年5月3號林江一主委做了預告蔡總統就任預告之後沒有幾天蔡總統就任然後8月1號蔡總統承諾部落公法人的制度已經推動上路大家都非常高興有了法律又有草案了"},{"start":11032.708,"end":11054.709,"text":"然後一將主委在106年10月27號也做了預告做了一些修正做了一個廣泛的徵詢意見之後就預告了都預告了現在還事辦什麼呢對不對還事辦什麼呢都有啊都有草案啊趕快發布才對啊因為"},{"start":11056.328,"end":11084.39,"text":"你說事辦 你也要先依當初的依原計法第二條之一發佈這個部落公法人的設置辦法如果你想事辦 你可以在這個辦法裡面加一條先事辦你可以加一條事辦的公法人才可以成為公法人啊"},{"start":11085.54,"end":11108.377,"text":"你是一個公法人的部落你事辦才有一個成效到底是怎麼樣啊你才有部落公法人的前者前者跟前例跟義務才能夠才才真正的才能夠達到事辦的效果不然的話沒有部落公法人"},{"start":11109.673,"end":11136.673,"text":"你這個沒有辦法 你就沒有法規依據嘛你用那個事辦計畫他就不是公法人啊沒有公法人的地位沒有這個潛力義務你怎麼事辦 淪為空談嘛就是原來那是部落嘛你還是現在的部落沒有地位你事辦什麼呢"},{"start":11137.762,"end":11166.435,"text":"你沒有譴責啊 你怎麼事辦所以還是要趕快發布部落公法人設置辦法啊 主委趕快發布我們會就是說謝謝委員這個指教啦要勇敢的跟這個主委講過去我當企劃處處長也是很勇敢的跟主委講啊對不對 我當副主委的時候也是很勇敢的"},{"start":11168.953,"end":11193.925,"text":"不要怕就送上去就不用送啊我說那個亞巴蘇聯我們送成何然後主委就把它發布不用送行政院呢授權給你呢這麼大譴責中華民國的法律給你這麼大的譴責又不敢奇怪了所以這個部分好我們接下來"},{"start":11195.689,"end":11223.507,"text":"所以當初因為有這樣的提案所以等一下我們預算提案解凍案的時候我們可以繼續討論好接下來這個進法補償當初我提要追加預算而且還要求你1月31號以前要送到主計總處這個是考慮到立法院的會期啊那個曾主委立法院的會期"},{"start":11224.69,"end":11242.721,"text":"到這個月5月31號6月開始是休會還好我們上禮拜前幾天表決通過要延會到7月31號所以還有機會進法補償的追加預算的審查"},{"start":11243.853,"end":11272.144,"text":"趕快送來在你的報告裡面提到你已經比我的比法院所通過的結議預算案的解通案的結議慢了兩個月你是3月10號3月10號送到行政院你每天啊或是每個禮拜碰到行政院主計長還有這個院長跟他報告的這個急迫信啊不然你9月怎麼發放"},{"start":11274.38,"end":11301.551,"text":"你7月30還要我們有研會啊不然的話你9月10月是立法院的總質詢的時間不會處理那個議案啊所以抓住這個時間趕快要求每個禮拜就跟那個主計長講可以嗎可以每個禮拜就跟他講不要一直躺在他的桌上他有退回嗎有沒有退回"},{"start":11302.435,"end":11331.296,"text":"還沒有退回沒有退回嘛對嘛沒有退回就要趕快這個是你要跟他講卓榮泰院長所承諾的啊對不對最佳預算是卓榮泰院長所承諾的嘛最後一個題目齁這個住宅啊原住民的專屬的社會住宅過去沒有住宅法的時候你看基隆1億當時啊81年啊1億多原住民的國宅啊"},{"start":11332.165,"end":11360.263,"text":"然後你看這個新店的中正原住民住宅兩億多的經費然後這個新三峽的兩億多的住宅然後汐止花東新村四億多這個是最快的邊公寓上直接買那個人民的那個民間的集合式住宅這個是直接買喔"},{"start":11361.499,"end":11380.951,"text":"直接買民間的集合式住宅法那時候是沒有住宅法 現在啊一樣的做法一樣的做法我們看住宅法你先看住宅法第二條第四項"},{"start":11382.165,"end":11404.117,"text":"目的事業主管機關就是指中央人民會為了原住民主的教育語言文化的傳承發展需要要興建專攻原住民成都的社會住宅這個是法例105年等一下105年12月23號所明訂的原住民的現在都會區人口已經達到51.57%了你看"},{"start":11411.283,"end":11437.381,"text":"新北市台北市桃園市台中市原住民的自有住宅的比例這麼的低所以要裝要興建或是買作為原住民的專攻的社會住宅這個是有法律的依據啊處長他想要說什麼目的事業主管機關是地方政府錯了"},{"start":11439.025,"end":11464.404,"text":"住宅法第二條寫得很清楚地方政府是什麼是主管機關啊他不是目的主委主管機關所以是延命會的責任啊這個我曾經執行國發會啊國發會說我執行國發會說要給你們機會修你們原住民的住宅四年計劃原住民族住宅四年計劃國發會說可以"},{"start":11469.435,"end":11487.921,"text":"國發會說可以他我質詢完之後馬上就發文給人民會啊主委3月21號我把國發會的承諾說要趕快他還說要看要快不然會來不及組長這個計劃說成何了沒有"},{"start":11490.902,"end":11519.722,"text":"包委員喔 社會住宅目前都是用融資來新建那因為目前地方都有提出都是要中央全額補助所以我們沒有辦法 有沒有全額補助是另外可以談的至少你又有錢啦你連一塊錢都沒有融資平台本來就是用融資本來就金財源就會沒有問題那現在地方呢都是要求全額補助 其實中央平台國發會都同意這不是國發會輸了就算 國發會都同意"},{"start":11521.797,"end":11547.814,"text":"針對在這個你們的四年計劃裡面原住民族住宅四年計劃現在整個地方就新建住宅經費總共是72億總共是72億其實中央是沒有辦法全部都是應該用自償性的方式來去做處理處長 鄭主委我早上還質詢了國發會主委早上喔 今天早上喔"},{"start":11549.107,"end":11577.268,"text":"他說沒有問題 可以趕快請嚴明會送來好不好所以這個部分是一個非常非常重要最後最後剩下十秒鐘嚴明會委託政治大學已經完成的台灣研究民主正名運動政府體制文獻史料會篇主委這趕快印好不好好謝謝"},{"start":11579.945,"end":11587.79,"text":"謝謝鄭念才委員的諮詢下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在下一位我們請郭國文委員諮詢主席有請鄭主委鄭主委有請委員好主委你好"},{"start":11604.485,"end":11630.686,"text":"我從在2008年的時候在憲府時期的時候就參與這個平普正名的運動那四個多年了終於在將近三年前的時候呢這個憲法第17號已經出爐給予那個平普族親有一道的希望這三年來我也曾經在這個園民會這邊做過要求要跟民間對話"},{"start":11632.352,"end":11647.413,"text":"不過我們國家對這個評普組只有予以文化的承認而憲判的結果是正式的予以政治的承認而這個政治的承認要一些法定權利的一個給予但是必須"},{"start":11648.257,"end":11673.658,"text":"符合一些要件一來三年之內要完成立法那不是修法 就是立新法民間一直想說要用修法的方式但是你們卻用新法的方式這個部分待會請主委說明一下大家一直沒有辦法接受但就實質的內容來說大家希望說集體的權利的部分應該符合原住民基本法"},{"start":11674.438,"end":11687.927,"text":"而另外的部分呢在限制當中有提到說呢曾作為國家資源要另以法令定制你用一個三年內要制定但是所有的民間的版本希望在個人的權利部分能夠一年內達成主委這裡頭還沒有一個討論商量的空間"},{"start":11694.574,"end":11709.452,"text":"主委請回答好這個平埔族平埔族這個生物法我們在5月15號已經送大業也送來送很晚了我講老師說比較慢還是我們山崔市感是山崔市處才產生出來是"},{"start":11712.535,"end":11739.437,"text":"那現在就是說我們的平埔的這個族群的朋友他們是希望所有的權利都能夠一次就到位那但在這個原來的山地原住民跟平地原住民來講是希望說他是有別以這兩個族群的那這個原住民族的這個基本法他是在規範這個山地原住民跟平地原住民的那這個"},{"start":11741.091,"end":11760.683,"text":"這個平埔族群是後來的那當然有一些這個基本法裡面有一些切實沒有辦法來規範現在的這個平埔原住民所以我們當然要用另外的專法來為平埔族的這個族人量身打造我覺得關鍵其實在那三年跟一年之間是啊"},{"start":11761.443,"end":11787.14,"text":"有關於個人權益的部分你用三年的部分老實講大家就會覺得充滿變數充滿變數不只是內容的問題而已而且還要包括整部法令的部分你現在現階段你如果這麼有自信的話用一個新法的方式想要來處理平埔原住民的身份跟權益的問題的話那我就問你"},{"start":11788.035,"end":11812.876,"text":"你們現在推出來之後 你有把握在這個會期當中能夠通過嗎我們希望在這個會期當中不然下個會期九月就開始了啊是十月就到期了不是嗎對主委我覺得你沒有什麼危機感如果十月就還是這個生活沒有通過的話我們平埔原住民族的這個民主認定我們立刻就會啟動"},{"start":11814.356,"end":11837.677,"text":"對 認定是該是啟動嘛 但是權益的部分規範還是模模糊糊嘛沒有一個法令上的依據嘛 憲判就希望你三年內完成立法工作嘛 是對 不是嗎 是就是主委您的責任啊 是啊對啊 那現在又出現啊 出現了另一個委員的版本啊連原住民三個字連提都不提基本上這根本是違憲的嘛 不是嗎沒有錯 這個當然 剛剛都沒有聽到你講"},{"start":11838.956,"end":11859.971,"text":"可是問題是現實的政治多數當中這個違憲的法案如果萬一通過的話那你來怎麼辦我就問你啊這個如果是內容的一個法律來推過的話當然我們沒有辦法接受啦我們也會拜託行政院這裡也要提出至少也要提出呼籲或者是釋憲啊所以說呢萬一萬一"},{"start":11861.092,"end":11874.076,"text":"如果呢 因為是花藝財 我願意承認原住民的身份違反了第17號判 憲判的話你還是可以踩住你的基本的立場該赴議的時候赴議 該釋憲的時候要釋憲否則這個矮化嘛 這個歧視嘛 對不對"},{"start":11879.998,"end":11902.232,"text":"所以主委你的立場要踩住啊而且很重要的是說這內容的部分要如何讓這個憲法的判決得以這個落實之外還有部分還要讓這個竹青的這個期待可以落實啊是所以竹青期待落實的部分的這個內容之外我覺得趁這個機會啦反正現在研會已經"},{"start":11904.423,"end":11920.203,"text":"成為自己的事實了嘛你不如就這個時候一來加強這個立法工作在這個會期把它完成二來加強對話再來台南一次因為西拉雅是平埔族當中最大的文化儀式祭典也是最完整的"},{"start":11921.604,"end":11940.475,"text":"現階段呢 基本上他們行動是最積極的對你能不能撥個時間來下來跟台南對話一下會 我們要盡快就趕快沒有沒有 我是說這個會期之內喔對啊 我趕快就在那邊安排喔對加強民間對話是積極推動立法是讓憲判能夠得以早日落實好不好好 加油謝謝"},{"start":11944.12,"end":11951.985,"text":"好,謝謝郭國文委員的諮詢,下一位我們請鄭振前委員諮詢鄭振前委員,鄭振前委員不在,下一位我們請吳立華委員諮詢"},{"start":11963.713,"end":11982.14,"text":"謝謝主席有請園民會主委曾主委有請主委好主委好今天我想要問的議題蠻多的一共有九個議題所以時間有限之下希望就是很簡短的回答可以不可以願不願意配合好不好好"},{"start":11983.2,"end":11993.671,"text":"那第一個部分呢我跟大家一樣我要來關心我們的原基法原住民自治還有部落工法人為什麼因為我在去年院會總諮詢的時候有特別提到今年2025年是我們的原基法20年"},{"start":12002.06,"end":12018.269,"text":"所以呢我很希望至少原住民自治也好部落工法人也好至少能夠有一個推進那當時呢我給我們的卓院長看了一個20秒的影片現在我們再來重複看一下啊嗯 沒有聲音"},{"start":12039.141,"end":12065.642,"text":"抱歉喔 聲音出不來有文字好這位做過鄉長 做過校長 做過議員八十幾歲的老人家他講完這段話之後呢一個禮拜他就因為意外過世齁那個主委當時你有在現場有你應該很清楚這段話是"},{"start":12067.788,"end":12085.321,"text":"這個做過地方政府這麼多行政工作的老人家 齊老 長老他非常非常感慨的說希望部落工法人要上路而且他覺得如果我還有機會當選四年至少能夠做到這一項就好"},{"start":12086.141,"end":12103.443,"text":"所以我当时我有提到我希望原民会行政院可以做到第一个定定部落公法人的设置条例第二个拟定草案并办理分区座谈第三拟定三年期部落公法人的沙盒计划选定事办典办理"},{"start":12104.264,"end":12133.544,"text":"我很高興今年有出來但是我也很意外因為跟我想的不太一樣我從你們公布的這個事辦計畫的內容我看到什麼呢我看到說要辦原住民傳統名字查調部落族語文化樂舞及傳統體育活動部落及毗鄰區域自然資源調查巡護管理部落產業的規劃推動傳統建築文化地景及公共事業一共八項"},{"start":12135.005,"end":12150.541,"text":"这八项都很好没有不好但是我觉得跟我们想象的部落工法人不太一样因为为什么我们需要部落工法人他是一个工具我举个例子像我们的雅尼我们怎么去谈"},{"start":12151.582,"end":12171.951,"text":"我們這些要水利發電的電廠我們怎麼跟他談光電的地熱的我們怎麼跟他談我光是講一個最簡單的我們文化發展中心我們每一年因為使用了北業村的土地你們有給他們這個所謂的補償金50萬但是他是被放入鄉公所"},{"start":12173.004,"end":12192.681,"text":"不是直接給北葉村讓他授意因為他沒有部落公法人我再舉個簡單的例子很多我們的狩獵自主團體他必須要去打一個行政契約可是他想跟縣政府打縣政府不願意他也沒轍因為他不是部落公法人"},{"start":12193.422,"end":12202.564,"text":"所以部落工法人這個工具非常的重要那我是本來想說目前有很多的部落正在面臨這種開發問題等等的時候可以找他們來試辦部落工法人計畫那我們也可以呢去透過沙盒計畫把一些在我們的法律框架下會遇到的阻礙我們把它盤整出來"},{"start":12217.368,"end":12245.38,"text":"那讓他順利的推動以後我們就可以呢去進行擴大辦理甚至是法制化的規劃那我覺得也沒有關係我們已經上路所以第一個部分我就希望主委今年年底原民會說要辦理成果說明及檢討那我是希望說至少明年度擴大辦理讓有需要的人來提出訂定一個犯法那第二個不要忘記我們這個就是為了法制化的規劃"},{"start":12246.42,"end":12268.694,"text":"主委可以嗎可以好那謝謝齁那第二個部分呢我來關心元寶條例為什麼我關心元寶條例我在這個會期我也去經過我們卓院長的一個質詢齁我跟他講說其實元寶條例很重要因為我們就有看到前陣子的新聞出來在苗栗泰安鄉"},{"start":12270.035,"end":12284.07,"text":"大家都很嘩然啊 喔原來900萬就可以去抵押2億去設定抵押權2億 那到底是怎麼一回事我們都很清楚知道 這個就是長期以來的鑑明登記"},{"start":12285.111,"end":12307.689,"text":"那如果查出背後有中資那更不得了因為目前我們的兩岸人民關係條例也好我們的所有的條例都沒有辦法去查出背後是誰所以在這個部分你們有在5月21號齁昨天有給我一個函附齁說你們元寶地目前清查進度有了但是我看不到元寶條例的目前進度"},{"start":12308.69,"end":12312.794,"text":"那我是在想因為原開辦法你們也已經在3月5號做修正那原開辦法我們就是希望它未來能夠成為原保條例那這個當中也是引起嘩然因為你們的新辦法說未來的分配計畫要由縣市政府來核定"},{"start":12325.427,"end":12349.44,"text":"而且呢增加了一個但書去做一個限制申請人的資格所以我們也接到很多的陳情特別是很多人他已經完成公告核定那面臨這個新法舊法又沒有一個公告期他也不知道要怎麼辦但是主委我在這邊我只有一個想法原有頭再有主我們不能夠為了防弊去損害人民的權利"},{"start":12350.521,"end":12368.968,"text":"我們要防弊的 是不是那些審查的委員 核定的人我們不能夠把這樣的一個防弊加諸在損害人民的權益上面所以我希望這個部分一週內可以到辦公室報告看看怎麼樣去處理那第三題呢 我特別想要來謝謝您因為在5月19號前幾天謝謝您的支持跟農糧署 謝謝"},{"start":12374.85,"end":12391.697,"text":"你們願意在九月份讓我們的國產部落小米進入到全國的營養午餐那也很感謝我們的團善業者他們願意共襄盛舉來處理這個五六月學生營養午餐的部分那這個就是我講的"},{"start":12393.208,"end":12409.398,"text":"我們原民會要有上位思考你看我做立法委員我第一年進來我就一直跟林務局林保署說獎勵趙琳必須要縮短年限要增加補助額度那我相信他們九月也即將公告"},{"start":12410.319,"end":12414.223,"text":"第二個 我也覺得既然照領獎勵提高 禁法補償因應也要跟著提高 才不會失衡那也很謝謝我們通過 雖然呢一直有很多人製造恐慌但是我從來沒有恐慌 因為會做的事政府就是會做我不需要去恐慌 那我們就等著九月那第三個就是高山農業"},{"start":12432.463,"end":12455.048,"text":"那高山農業很重要所以呢我也一直在跟我們的農業部一直在討論怎麼恢復我們的高山農業因為它是一個解植土地最重要的一個歷程我們不知道以前梨山可以種水梨但是現在有茶有水梨有高麗菜都不是我們這個土地本來長的植物那我很謝謝你那天說了一句很重要的話"},{"start":12455.908,"end":12475.867,"text":"要有人吃才有人種 有人種才會有量有量才會主流化 才會有產業主流化之後文化就會活起來所以 園民會你是否願意跟農糧署就是針對這一些我們現在沒有量所以價格壓不下來你們願不願意跟農糧署 農糧署已經答應我了你願不願意一起的來支持獎勵種植小米"},{"start":12479.289,"end":12501.157,"text":"那第四個部分我想要爭取無人機的就業計畫無人機我也是質詢過很多年那您也知道它的重要性但是呢我們現在碰到一個問題因為民航局他要的證照不是我們質詢一次就可以領到他至少要三次以上才有辦法得到那個真正去噴灑農藥或者是載運藥物等等的那種執照"},{"start":12504.898,"end":12512.544,"text":"所以呢現在我們勞動部執訓局他已經願意了只要能夠在每一次的結訓對應到我們的就業的項目他們這個KPI能夠交代的過去他們就願意來做那現在園民會你是不是願意將這個無人機飛手的這些相關的人力需求去盤點園民會可以提供的機會例如我們的檢測人員啦巡山員啦 勘栽的時候的救護員等等"},{"start":12534.079,"end":12550.952,"text":"原民會是不是願意來規劃好 這個我們執信已經納入了好 那我要特別提醒我其實去盤點勞動部執訓這些年為我們原住民做的不是農業就是觀光就是傳統文化勞作等等我希望原民會要有一個想法"},{"start":12551.843,"end":12566.718,"text":"我們要與時俱進我們要多開一些好的能夠跟新的產業結合的要不然我們很容易被邊緣化那第五個部分就是關於力領人才的培訓那這個部分我知道我們的那個"},{"start":12568.719,"end":12592.804,"text":"處長他已經很認真已經有去就探盤查探驗證的人才跟一些大學像中山大學已經有去開班但是我希望你們跟環境部因為環境部已經答應我可以在每個縣市來針對原住民就近開設專班但是我要問原民會你願不願意跟環境部一起合作來開設這種原住民綠頂人才的培育專班"},{"start":12593.624,"end":12597.707,"text":"這沒有問題我們會跟他們一起來做好謝謝那第六個部分就是今天有原基法的一個提案修法版本我也有其實我在去年的四月也就是第一會期我就把八月一號原住民族日跟我們的歲時計一架我放到我們的原基法"},{"start":12613.679,"end":12625.736,"text":"讓他能夠有法源依據而不要呢在那個地方去跟人家去爭但是現在碎石記憶架被誤會的很嚴重我必須要講因為我也有跟原民會講過確實我們不要去看那個數字因為當時"},{"start":12630.322,"end":12658.678,"text":"是因為八八風災有所謂的八百壯士很多的多元人力就業還有很多政府這幾年的計畫去把這個地方工作權保障去壓住我們所謂的失業率但是我們不能夠忘記確實很多的族人很擔心也確實很多的族人他可能他未來老闆在禁用人員的時候他一想到原住民他就不想用了從哪裡可以看你們的貸金越來越多一年比一年多"},{"start":12659.398,"end":12677.61,"text":"也就是企業他寧可繳代金他也不願意經用原住民人員那我的意思是說很好現在我們就是要來爭取原民會我之前謝謝你們有做原地的即時就業計畫那勞動部的缺工獎勵也同意納入原住民我現在要問原民會是不是應該"},{"start":12678.71,"end":12699.802,"text":"從你們的貸金一樣錢從哪裡來人家不願意用用繳貸金我們來用貸金去創造更多的誘因給我們的雇主可以嗎可以不要讓我們的族人去上班很擔心很害怕那第七個就是教保員的部分我這幾年已經幫忙很多次但是我只講一句話因為時間已經到了"},{"start":12701.443,"end":12715.93,"text":"不要每一次來澄清 我覺得很辛苦民民互助教保中心跟澄清室都是一樣在做公共化的服務不論薪資 不論人員 不論權益是不是應該把他們逐步調整一起可以嗎"},{"start":12717.01,"end":12742.402,"text":"這個已經挑釁好了對那謝謝你們以後就不要再來問他們問這種問題那最後就是我關心的知識體系一直到最後的課綱教材我希望一條龍的計畫這個我已經開很多次協調會教育部 國教署 國教院 國科會 中研院我全部都協調過了那我也看到你們都有共識我們可不可以原住民是在跟時間賽跑啊我們把它做一計畫一條龍好嗎可以"},{"start":12744.183,"end":12764.701,"text":"那謝謝那我也希望這個部分我們一起來努力那污水道系統內政部已經同意規劃設計費600萬這是政府的錯他把全國的永久屋他用都市計畫的污水道的方式來處理造成我們怨聲載道那現在很高興內政部願意出600萬設計規劃原民會你們願意出多少"},{"start":12768.064,"end":12794.332,"text":"願意就是我們他們內政部已經這個沒有什麼意見我們會我們會技術核定規劃設計會在2000萬左右OK那環境部已經表明這個不符合他那我請主委你應該要去跟縣政府溝通可以嗎那以上九個議題希望園民會兩週內能夠提出報告或者到辦公室說明好謝謝主委謝謝各位處長謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員下一個我們請盧縣議委員質詢"},{"start":12808.636,"end":12825.789,"text":"主席有請主委主委有請主委好主委好 辛苦了那就針對評估組的問題問一個問題就是說面臨評估組即將加入他大概規劃的人數大概多少預期的人數會入籍的人數50個"},{"start":12831.4,"end":12848.873,"text":"五十個?還是五十萬?五十萬啦人數啊,平埔族平埔族五十萬今年沒有那麼快,今年大概十萬啦那我想說,突然增加這麼多人你們科是有準備增加人力來幫忙這些業務嗎?"},{"start":12850.074,"end":12878.679,"text":"我們會我們會針對這個因為一定一定人數越多他的業務量一定越大所以是在哪一個單位也是在中規處中規處那我接下來就要提一些我在部落聽到的問題跟主委來切磋一下那我常常在遇到部落的一些我們的領導人物比如說理事長啊部落會議主席這些他們一直問希望能夠透過這個窗口來直接問你說有沒有可能也會有"},{"start":12879.119,"end":12887.73,"text":"以後會有津貼社區理事長或者是部落會議主席目前他們都是無脊植有這樣的規劃或者是說計畫的"},{"start":12891.857,"end":12911.343,"text":"跟委員報告 切實目前沒有這樣的規劃那我們內部再討論一下好不好因為如果你走到部落一定會遇到這些問題就是現在我還是會受到一些懲請就是說我們目前曾經是族裔的教學他可能會遇到一些斷糧的問題所以這個部分你了解嗎"},{"start":12913.581,"end":12933.309,"text":"沒有這個咧 他說你要終點式的沉浸式主義補助計畫跟我們報告 沉浸式教學最主要精神是要每天有一段時效的長期的沉浸才叫沉浸式目前終點的部分我們覺得它不符合沉浸的目標"},{"start":12937.431,"end":12965.976,"text":"終點式的部分我們會暫停不過如果學校願意來做其他的教學計畫我們可以透過我們的原住民族語言補助辦法的申請還是可以申請終點式的確定會停止就對了終點式因為它不符合沉浸式的精神所以我們會停可是它可以轉到別的計畫來申請那針對首例的問題我們現在很多族人都想說這個班級好像太少族人大概知道我們目前台灣的我們原住民的戀人有多少嗎"},{"start":12966.772,"end":12987.161,"text":"我知道委員的意思就是說我們這個訓練的課程太少了而且像東部就沒有辦法辦我們會趕快希望在西北海中公告以後很多獵人現在是沒有辦法使用槍支的所以你這個50人實在太少了而且是50人去受訓的話他們100%可以拿到證書嗎"},{"start":12989.822,"end":13009.133,"text":"還要很認真上課啦所以我意思是說你應該是不是北中南東都要辦一下然後趕快辦理我們立刻來辦好不好然後現在就是遇到就是借款的問題啦我們常常看到就是我們如何來提高金融結構乘坐原保地的這個抵押貸款你們所做的努力在哪裡"},{"start":13012.886,"end":13027.532,"text":"這個有關這個抵押貸款的部分我想我們會在這個我們的野保條例還有我們的這個原住民的這個管理辦法裡面我們會這個會不讓就是說這個土地不要讓那個不要設定這個"},{"start":13029.773,"end":13055.884,"text":"高的抵押錢所以我們希望說現在有承作的可能性嗎?這一兩年?是公股銀行嗎?對,跟委員報告,已經有公股銀行願意承作要點跟企業查案,現在在做最後的簽署可以跟居民說,園民會有做努力,感謝園民會的幫忙好不好目前是土銀跟核庫願意啦主委以前我們都可以跟"},{"start":13057.965,"end":13066.991,"text":"聽過所謂的國民住宅嘛可是現在都沒有所以那個自建自購這個部分或者說修商住宅貸款這個部分你們有做哪方面的一個規劃嗎"},{"start":13068.886,"end":13089.186,"text":"這個部分在元寶跟委員報告這個部分在元寶地信貸裡頭已經有規劃進去所以這一兩年也會呈現就是剛才鄭天才委員講到社會住宅那我們現在目前看到的計畫有像是只有台中市 霧峰跟沙鹿我想說主委你來自屏東"},{"start":13090.047,"end":13118.398,"text":"我們高坪地區這個社會住宅的迫切性我覺得也是很高因為現在部落不可能很快就長大嘛那很多我們老二老三必須要外出去自己找房子的要去買房子的這些所以這個需求應該是很大的所以應該你要早一點去規劃說我們高坪或者說比較多的一些都市原住民的地區儘早規劃以後才會知道說我們以後要在哪裡自產這樣可以嗎"},{"start":13120.508,"end":13134.739,"text":"報委員可以喔 他們目前的簽證計畫 他們 縣政府就已經核定了那現在就是說他們對簽證方案還沒有共識那如果他們有共識的話 我們會來給予協助是嗎 目前還沒有共識對 OK"},{"start":13136.072,"end":13157.887,"text":"好最後就是關於那個我上次去言平下有講到有些族人因為他們進法補償必須繳回的問題就當時在規劃的時候可能他的進法補償是屬於都市計劃區內結果後來被查到說他不屬於進法補償的範圍結果就造成有一角一嶺"},{"start":13160.95,"end":13179.37,"text":"要追回三年的補償金這個部分原委會有沒有需要了解或者是尋求協助啊謝謝委員這個部分我們查出來就是說這個的事務或者是這個辦的這個有被誤解就是有失誤的地方這個是在縣政府跟相公所"},{"start":13179.75,"end":13189.076,"text":"那現在我們希望就是民眾可以分歧繳納或者是抵扣這個原來的補償款這樣對民眾比較最少的困擾了好謝謝主委謝謝好繼續我們請吳啓明吳啓明委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":13209.331,"end":13224.899,"text":"好 乍為一味同仁 請我們一出名 欸 指揮指揮好 來 指揮 我還是針對我 我的選區喔 你在三峽喔 我們做一個那個 就是紀委所喔"},{"start":13227.284,"end":13248.212,"text":"現在我們爭取了三千零七百萬那在我們三峽的龍埔社區的旁邊客家園區的旁邊那現在整個工程的進度如何各位報告我們六月底就會上網公告希望年底就把它做好"},{"start":13253.81,"end":13272.788,"text":"那未來完成是不是做一個開放式讓我們社區的大家可以共同來使用因為你使用力一定要高你不能說坐著在那邊養蚊子就沒意義啊那我當初所講的那你的廁所的位置配置有沒有"},{"start":13274.202,"end":13297.31,"text":"對 把他放進來 都有卡因為我們那個算是一個原住民M7那你未來在北大那邊人口非常多那你還可以讓我們結合社區共同來享用我們原住民這個M7這個聚會所那這樣你才有意義不然我們也花了那麼多錢所以還是要有多的"},{"start":13298.851,"end":13316.403,"text":"人員來共同使用這才能創造說一個我們所蓋的使用力才會大大提升那這樣才有意義啊讓他的使用力越高越好啦對對對對然後還再來勒我看到我們現在規劃"},{"start":13321.485,"end":13342.979,"text":"我們的足矣的教學傳統的公益展包括文化的導覽那現在這個規劃是非常的好但是我現在發現一些偏鄉的偏鄉的他們那個就是"},{"start":13345.851,"end":13371.448,"text":"那個FB裡面的那個信號信號就都不好那是我們偏鄉是信號的問題我們是不是在那個網路網路那個再把它加強然後讓我們偏鄉的小朋友大家都能夠讓我們網路的資訊都能夠吸收得到這是應該是比較我們要注重的因為很多小朋友現在都會上網是"},{"start":13373.13,"end":13396.186,"text":"那你網路的系統是不是要更加的順暢好我們會要求這個我們中國醫處來趕快把這個事情做好因為這個經費不是很多啦那你一些小朋友還是要讓他們接觸說整個的對我們未來一些新的知識大家都能夠充分的了解那這是應該是我們要去推廣的"},{"start":13397.591,"end":13409.727,"text":"好我們會趕快來做那再來我還有一個問題就是我們土城的那個原住民生態園區啊就是以前那個海山煤礦那裡"},{"start":13416.208,"end":13442.694,"text":"那之前生態園區也是委員的支持那我們有補助他做第一期的那個改善的費用總共是700多萬那目前已經完工了對因為你那個我們那個生態那個生態公園你現在做起來但是還是使用力還是不高因為我們的原住民在土城非常多那土城非常多你有到土城有沒有到土城過"},{"start":13443.194,"end":13458.843,"text":"有有有,那個地方我去過那土城我們所辦的活動都要跟里長借活動中心啊所以你未來我常講你擔任一個族委你要有擔當就是要照顧族人嘛那族人喔"},{"start":13461.221,"end":13487.838,"text":"講這藍廳的那小姨娘的都要去拜託里長然後這邊借那邊借那你要有一個聚會所聚會所我們原住民M7你說去找嘛原住民M7那個範圍未來海山煤礦開發那一邊又是一個新興的都會區那交通也便利那是不是我們要朝這個方向不然你說要找土地現在土地也不好找啊"},{"start":13488.798,"end":13505.386,"text":"所以你要將現有的蓋一個紀惠所讓我們所有原住民他們在土城才有一個地方不用去跟里長借不用去跟公所借那你這樣才能永續的照顧到我們的原住民"},{"start":13506.947,"end":13531.219,"text":"這個我們來努力看看好不好因為我每次的會期都在拜託因為說實在的原住民在土城也是非常多原住民早期在土城也算是一個弱勢弱勢團體那我們弱勢團體我們當然我們一定要去照顧他們你身為一個主委一定要有擔當好不好好謝謝"},{"start":13534.298,"end":13542.303,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝吳啟民委員好 繼續我們請丁薛忠委員 丁薛忠委員是書面報告 那繼續我們請陳毅委員"},{"start":13561.271,"end":13566.194,"text":"主委請教一下有些部落聚會所的設計規劃還有宜居部落的基本設施建設的費用"},{"start":13577.762,"end":13589.493,"text":"據我所知很多在農曆年前其實你們都已經審查完畢了但是呢公所到現在其實沒有辦法拿到核定函請問是什麼原因來跟我們報告"},{"start":13594.182,"end":13607.98,"text":"其實因為受限於預算凍結的關係所以有些我們目前還沒有辦法去做核定那我們非常期盼這次解凍後我們能夠趕快把地方的需求趕快去協助他們來執行"},{"start":13608.721,"end":13627.22,"text":"所以就是因为预算大幅被冻结或者删减所以影响到我们地方很多部落的这个建设等等的这个计划那我举几个例子比如说台东的这个巴萨瓦利聚会所的这个规划经费"},{"start":13628.041,"end":13650.918,"text":"那我想很多那个郑天才委员的太太他也是那个地方的人他们也很多的亲戚住在那边那再来就是花莲光复阿都莫的基础建设以及这个马太安部落的战事墙等等这几个案子也是花莲我想郑委员是花莲那边的人应该都要很关心才是"},{"start":13651.778,"end":13679.079,"text":"那因為今年這個預算的這個刪減數2075億元創歷史新高那現在呢當然發生了很多就是說中央補助地方的經費沒有辦法順利的這個撥下去那現在地方政府當然就是哇哇叫包括昨天台東縣政府我跟這個跟那邊的長官對話的時候他們也是叫苦連天"},{"start":13680.06,"end":13688.597,"text":"那我們都來自地方喔那去年這樣子的這個這個亂山這樣的預算齁的結果我想就是說"},{"start":13690.243,"end":13717.945,"text":"這些提案的委員齁應該最後終於要知道就是說這樣亂刪預算的這個結果就是拿石頭砸自己的腳嘛我剛剛講的那幾個地方不都是他們自己應該要很關心的地方嗎那我想待會兒這個就是海水退了齁我們就知道誰沒有穿褲子待會兒審預算在我們在解凍預算我們就可以知道是誰在擋這個預算那可能有些提案人或許是人頭那"},{"start":13719.847,"end":13729.999,"text":"帮助协助一些其他委员提案的好那我们大家都可以好好来看一下那另外就是说我请一下那个原语会的部分因为我们"},{"start":13737.947,"end":13763.736,"text":"我也好政府後來就是也鼓勵大家學習學習這個母語那當然我們現今就是說整個原住民的語言有16足42個語別嘛那不論是在都會區或者是原鄉原住民都想有不少的這個家長呢其實都想要找到合適的主義老師給孩子好好教導他們"},{"start":13764.656,"end":13787.255,"text":"那當然就是說在都會區是更加沒有這個族語學習的環境我前日子接到一個新北市就是說新北族人的一個陳情案因為在學校呢他沒有合適的族語老師所以這位媽媽呢就希望幫自己的孩子能夠聘到這個排灣族的族語老師可是因為"},{"start":13788.516,"end":13809.258,"text":"因為找不到那園友會你們有設置有建置這樣的平台但是你們這樣子的平台呢其實只提供只有提供給這個公務機關查詢那所以這個陳情人他必須先透過再透過這個地方政府幫他查那查完之後再回覆給他"},{"start":13810.719,"end":13837.792,"text":"討論的內容當然包括就是說教學方式啦就是要面對面啦或者視訊還是有其他的方式那還有教學費用等等那如果後來再有其他問題衍生的話那這樣一來一往其實花了很多的時間是非常麻煩的所以本席才想要說建議你們一個模式啦這個模式是我過去曾經協助過這個"},{"start":13840.137,"end":13840.157,"text":"我們"},{"start":13842.677,"end":13870.928,"text":"我们职棒工会建制的一个就是说向体育署申请补助的这个职棒退役人才媒合资料库那这个棒球教练跟这个朱宇老师其实也有非常相同的一个情形因为在各级的学校还有这个社区他的就是说他们棒球教练有这个需求的时候呢透过体育署媒合非常快"},{"start":13871.388,"end":13898.551,"text":"但是发现就是说这个棒球运动的发展已经是非常生活化而且社区化了那很多的民间棒球或者是他们甚至有想要一对一的这个教学的这个社区棒球他们同样也有找不到这个教练的问题所以想要从事这个教学工作的教练他们也没有办法进入这个民间的市场所以在2022年我协助了这个职棒工会建置了这个网站"},{"start":13899.773,"end":13914.37,"text":"所以在这个网站里面可以选择希望找寻怎么样专长的教练在哪个区域哪个县市针对教学的费用学习者的年龄都可以在上面设定这个条件搜寻所以未来"},{"start":13915.211,"end":13942.623,"text":"原語會也可以設計類似這樣子的網站然後把這個可以把需要就是說我們要找哪個組別的這個哪個組別的這個主義老師然後教授的這個方式跟費用好都放上去那條件設定之後他就會就是自己會跑出來合適的資訊去去做這個全台的這個"},{"start":13944.443,"end":13965.208,"text":"連結跟媒合因為這個是就是說如果像之前那個平台教練自己願意他可以把他的聯絡資訊直接自己再加上去所以最後讓學員可以從這個上面獲得資訊然後直接聯繫所以就不會有個資的問題了"},{"start":13968.742,"end":13985.554,"text":"所以这个部分董事长你觉得这样的建议如何谢谢委员那目前我们除了这个各自的部分人才库已经是提供给公部门那刚刚委员所提的我们会做一个炒你之后再跟委员做说明"},{"start":13986.24,"end":14010.32,"text":"好我想如果有這個管道更便利的話那我想這個對於這個整個主語的推動學習是更有幫助的好謝謝那那個經發處處長其實同樣的道理我相信在很多的這個不管是部落也好或者在都會區在社區也好"},{"start":14011.261,"end":14036.822,"text":"那甚至个人其实有很多人也想要学习我们传统的一些不管是工艺或者一些手作等等的这些师资也可以请你们一并刚刚我已经有举例了你们可以朝这个方向去盘点然后也同样建置这样子的一个平台可以对于我们的整个文化传承其实也是有帮助的"},{"start":14037.583,"end":14051.532,"text":"我想這樣的規劃經費應該都不會很多但一點點的錢可以做很多的就是說讓我們整個族語也好整個文化傳承也好是有相當大的幫助也請你們一併規劃那沒問題我們來處理好謝謝好謝謝陳委員的資訊謝謝"},{"start":14062.845,"end":14079.066,"text":"登记发言委员除了不在场之外其余都已经发言完毕了我们现在询答结束委员丁学忠还有林一锦委员所提的书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位在一周之内已书面"},{"start":14082.068,"end":14101.18,"text":"現在我們進行討論事項處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民委員會預算解凍案總共有16案還有原住民文化中心預算解凍案總共4案我們現在討論一下請問一下家常委員有沒有意見"},{"start":14102.796,"end":14108.999,"text":"主席,我是覺得有問題,奇怪的說,因為剛才我們有協商,去了解總統,有時候有國會,看人看有什麼意見,看看有沒有辦法補充好,請問一下盧縣英委員"},{"start":14123.319,"end":14138.835,"text":"好那如果是這樣的話我們就按照剛剛那個美會委員所說的就是呢事實上我們剛剛在休息的時候一直都有持續的來討論那至於這個我本席有提幾個案大家聽一下"},{"start":14139.435,"end":14156.222,"text":"第二案第三案第六案第十一案我們希望這幾案呢原民會繼續再提出你們的一些說明還有這個資料然後呢我們才予以解凍如果有意見的話呢我們現在休息五分鐘然後我們討論一下謝謝"},{"start":14556.172,"end":14585.452,"text":"好來我們繼續開會謝謝有關原住民委員會預算解凍案有16案除了第二第三第六第11案繼續凍結我們另外定期處理之外其餘的13案就同意凍之然後提報12對對不起其餘的12案同意凍之然後來提報院會那另外原住民文化中心預算解凍案總共4案都同意凍之好嗎"},{"start":14587.734,"end":14589.435,"text":"報告委員會宣讀討論事項二所列法案條文"},{"start":14598.735,"end":14627.034,"text":"第二条委员高金素美等21人提案增订第六款第七款六原住民族传统领域土地细致原住民族部落传统祭典祖林圣地旧部落列区或耕耕土地经依法化设公原住民族部落使用之土地七原住民保留地细致既有原住民保留地及依法增编或化编公原住民使用之土地其余同现行条文委员卢宪一等18人提案第一款增订撒奇莱雅族赛德克族"},{"start":14627.854,"end":14655.19,"text":"拉阿鲁瓦族卡纳卡纳富族其余同意现行条文第二条之一委员高金素梅德21日人提案修正为第二条之一政府因应民族意愿辅导原住民族各族建制该族民族会议处法律令有规定外依法代表各该民族行政机关经各族民族会议同意者得就该族有关事务之管辖事项将其权限制一部分委托其办理原住民族各族民族会议运作所需经费有重要原住民族主管机关卓予补助"},{"start":14655.63,"end":14677.533,"text":"执行委托事务所需经费有委托机关之意第一项民族会议之设置命名组成运作及其他相关事项应尊重该族传统文化兼顾民族正义正当性及成员参与机会利益法律定制委员吴丽华等16呃增订第二条之二委员吴丽华等16人提案第二条之二定8月1日为原住民族日以尊重原住民民族地位与权益并促进各族族"},{"start":14678.334,"end":14695.295,"text":"并促进各族群认识原住民族文化价值原住民每年应有三日岁时记忆放假旅游各原住民族部落自主择地并报请中央原住民族主管机关公告之委员卢新一等18人提案第二条之二政府因民族意愿辅导原住民族各族建制该族民族议会民族议会"},{"start":14695.868,"end":14718.195,"text":"请中央援助民族主管机关核定者为公法人各组民族议会运作所需经费由中央援助民族主管机关着以补助执行委委托事务所需经费由委托机关支引第一项民族议会之设置命名组成运作及其他相关事项应尊重该组传统文化及氏族关系兼顾民主正当性及公众参与机会另以办法定制第四条"},{"start":14719.625,"end":14744.353,"text":"委員高金素美等二十一人提案第一項前段修正為政府應議原住民族各族意願增訂第二項前項自治之實施應依該族民族會議與政府對等協商通過該族自治方案辦理其餘同線條文第六條為黃人等二十一人提案將由總統府召開協商會議定之修正為由總統召開協商會議決定之其餘同線條文"},{"start":14746.431,"end":14767.346,"text":"委員鄭天才等十八人提案增訂第六條之一為彰顯原住民族證明之歷史意義特定定八月一日為原住民族日政府應訂定民族平等紀念日其日其由政府徵循原住民族後定之第八條委員盧仙怡等十八人提案第一項中段修正為應涉所屬一級原住民族專責機關或單位其餘同現行條文"},{"start":14769.668,"end":14797.916,"text":"第十条委员黄仁等二十二人提案第一项同线型条文增订第二项第三项经认可支援著名族文化产业得减免营业税及娱乐税前项认可及减免税捐办法及标准由中央主管机关汇同财政部定之委员卢宪一等十八人提案第三项修正为前项认可及减免税捐办法由中央主管机关汇同文化部及财政部定之其余同委员黄仁等二十二人提案第十五条委员高金素梅等二十一人提案委员黄仁等二十六人提案"},{"start":14798.436,"end":14823.076,"text":"第二项中段之是需要得设置文字修正为应设置其余同线性条文委员卢宪一等18人提案第一项后段增订环保农产运销等文字第二项修正为政府为办理全项业务应设置原住民族地区建设基金新台币100亿元并于本法中华民国全年全月全日修正实行后5年内编列预算其基金之运用办法另定之其余同线性条文"},{"start":14825.242,"end":14847.92,"text":"第十八条为高金素美等二十人提案第十八条政府应设原住民族综合发展基金办理原住民族经济发展业务辅导事业机构住宅执行办租售建构及修缮业务原住民族综合发展基金总额不得低于新台币一百亿元其基金来源如下一中央政府循运算程序分二年编列预算或指定财源拨入而住宅租售及相关业务收益款"},{"start":14848.36,"end":14876.151,"text":"三原住民族土地赔偿补偿收益款土地资源开发盈利所得及相关法令规定之提拨款四原住民族地区温泉取用费提拨款五全部原住民族取得之智慧创作专用权收入六原住民族就业基金收入七人体研究计划咨询及取得原住民族或其所属特定族群同意约定就研究结果所衍生商业利益之回馈金八受证收入九本基金之自习收入"},{"start":14876.671,"end":14904.828,"text":"10相关法令规定之拨款11其他有关收入委员郑天才等17人提案第1项后段之修缮业务修正为修缮贷款业务第2项第3款前段增订公有文字其余通委员高金素美等20人提案第19条委员黄仁等30人提案第1项虚文增订河川文字第3款增订漂流木其余通现行条文第20条委员高金素美等21人提案第1项修正为政府承认原住民族对其土地及自然之预言之"},{"start":14905.308,"end":14931.02,"text":"处分计划管理及利用等权利其余同无现行条文委员高金素美等二十一人提案增订第二十条之一第二十条之一原住民保留地除依法不得私有外应辅导原住民取得承租权或无偿取得所有权原住民取得原住民保留地所有权如有依转于原住民为限有下列情形之一者得由政府承受私有原住民保留地依新办土地征收条例第三条第四条第一项规定之各款事业"},{"start":14931.42,"end":14932.801,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":14952.208,"end":14979.806,"text":"保留地政府依前向第三款及第四款规定承受之原住民保留地除政府机关依法拨用外其余移转之收容以原住民为限国有原住民保留地出租衍生之收益得作为原住民保留地管理原住民足地区经济发展及基础设施建设原住民足自治费用不受国有财产法第七条规定之限制原住民保留地之认定基准增编划编所有权取得资格条件与程序开发利用与出租收益之管理运用"},{"start":14980.886,"end":15003.748,"text":"正义处理及其他应遵行事项另一法律定之文高金素梅等21人提案增淀第20条之二原住民族传统领域土地处法律另有规定外应供原住民族部落为传统灌输之使用原住民族传统领域之土地之范围应尊重原住民族之历史及意愿其认定基准化设增编化编正义处理及其他应遵行事项之办法"},{"start":15004.048,"end":15029.242,"text":"有中央援助民族主管机关定制援助民族传统领域土地之申请使用对象程序使用方式及其他应遵行事项之办法有中央援助民族主管机关定制第21条委员吴立华等17人提案删除第1项第4项之公有文字第4项后段修正为受限制所生损失之补偿事项另一法律定制其余同现行条文委员高金素美等21人提案修正为"},{"start":15029.782,"end":15047.872,"text":"第21条政府承认原住民族土地计划管理权利并因应民族意愿定定各该族所属原住民族土地之计划管理方案政府合准开发利用原住民族土地或依法实施原住民族土地之利用限制措施时应符合前项计划管理方案有侵害当地原住民族土地权利之风险者"},{"start":15048.252,"end":15071.392,"text":"应经当地民族代表组织事先自由知情之同意政府核准或发布前项行政行为有致原住民族受有损失之风险者应采取适当措施免除或减少对原住民族之不利影响致身损失者应依法补偿委员卢新一等18人提案删除第一项及第四项前段之或部落及其周边一定范围内之公有土地等文字其余同性行条文"},{"start":15072.072,"end":15091.546,"text":"第22条文高金素美等二十一任提案前段修正为政府与原住民族地区及其周边海域化设资源治理区域或设置资源治理机关时应征得当地原住民族同意并与当地原住民族建立共同管理机制本法施行前化设或设置者应与当地原住民族建立共同管理机制其余同现行条文"},{"start":15092.166,"end":15109.595,"text":"为高清素美等21元提案增订第23条之一为彰显原住民族正名之历史意义促进各族群认识并共享原住民族文化价值特定定每年8月1日为原住民族日为国庆纪念日应与放假一日原住民每年应有3至7日岁时记忆放假日每年由民族各"},{"start":15109.975,"end":15132.458,"text":"各族民族会议自行责定报请中央援助民族主管机关公告之各族民族会议设置前各族岁时计议放假日应由中央援助民族主管机关征询援助民族各族后再行公告国家之各种纪念日地点地景及其他文化象征应纳入援助民族之文化与记忆第24条委员高金素美等21人提案第一项后站增订及相关卫生福利业务"},{"start":15132.938,"end":15154.306,"text":"第三项中段修正为原住民医疗或社会福利资源使用之交通费用增订第四项前项交通费用之申请程序应力求简化并定期检讨相关申请程序其余同现行条文第二十八条文高精素美等二十一人体验修正为政府对于居住于原住民族地区外之原住民以及部落"},{"start":15155.694,"end":15181.793,"text":"都市化后原住民居民之健康安居融资就学就养就业就医及社会适应等事项应加强保障及协助原住民族之区域均衡发展权益保障及社会适应等有关事项另一法律定制委员黄仁等20人提案增订第28条之一对于居住于原住民族地区以外之原住民政府应给予原住民族教育及语言文化等传承发展需要与公有土地新办或奖励民间新办售物"},{"start":15182.594,"end":15199.632,"text":"不受递之原住民族专属社会住宅专供原住民族承租或承购原住民族承租前向住宅并实际居住达一定年限与租赁期限满前提出承购申请者其承租期限已缴纳至租金及担保金得全部抵充应价款"},{"start":15200.393,"end":15221.739,"text":"原住民承购第一项或第二项之住宅如有移转或出租以原住民为限第一项原住民足住宅所需之土地得征收或申请无偿拨用取得公有土地后之处理不受国有财产法第28条土地法第25条及地方公产管理法规之限制第一项至第三项奖励民间新办住宅原住民承租承购及以"},{"start":15222.719,"end":15243.695,"text":"以租转购方式等相关办法另定之第三十条文高金素美等二十一人提案第一项修正为政府实施司法与行政救济程序公正调解仲裁或类似程序应尊重原住民族之族与传统习俗文化及价值观保障其合法权益并促进实质平等其办法另以法律定之第二项同现行条文"},{"start":15244.415,"end":15270.795,"text":"文高金素美等21人提案增订第30条之一政府应尊重及保障原住民认同并遵循传统文化生活之权利法院就原住民族传统文化及灌输之实践有关案件为判决时得适用原住民族习惯法其相关事项另一法律定之前项原住民族习惯法由中央原住民族主管机关调查确认必要使得设置原住民族文化鉴定机构或委托专业学术机构办理宣布完毕"},{"start":15274.394,"end":15278.384,"text":"討論事項二所列的議案另定期繼續審查本日的會議到這裡結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"161833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9a034706c0436de1bdbbda46ccfe01665670533963ba935bf9a6adb080ab407945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:34:49 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應當要正言義 更周延的法律來保護還好政府有講出了這一句話那本席認為 我們今天充分的聽到各方的意見尤其目前在少子化的這個社會當中每一個孩子都是寶貝"},{"start":294.128,"end":318.568,"text":"所以因此我們更有這個義務要好好的保護這些孩子的權利讓孩子快樂學習成長這是一個民主國家最基本的必要條件應當要做到的所以我看到有很多的孩子他還小他甚至連求救的吶喊聲都還來不及"},{"start":322.935,"end":350.85,"text":"如果像這樣的現象一直持續的在發生那我們這個社會要如何的來形容所以我認為導致兒童死亡暴力的受虐的這一些犯行惡劣毫無人性我們應該要提升幼童凌虐致死者的最高刑度是有必要的實在是有必要的"},{"start":352.139,"end":379.185,"text":"所以因此提高刑責是民意但是更是一個態度的一個展現讓虐毒案不要再發生讓虐童的犯人應該受到應有的一個懲罰用修法來展現我們保護孩童的一個決心用具體的行動來宣告台灣不接受這樣子的惡劣的行為"},{"start":380.396,"end":398.839,"text":"完善的一個法律制度才能夠真正的保護我們兒少的一個權益所以我心情蠻澎湃的因為很多的以前的陳情案歷歷在我的腦海中我真的真的要拜託大家"},{"start":399.62,"end":413.456,"text":"今天他們都願意出來願意出來講我們的行政部門請你們務必要相似的來展示我們到底要怎麼樣保護我們的兒少我楊瓊玉一定會全力以赴謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16699","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddcd64100527991d8c16e636471cd401bea12e9ca99aa835c0f0a89a0913b09ca35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員葛如鈞等21人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n五、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n六、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n七、繼續審查委員陳素月等24人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n八、繼續審查委員林俊憲等16人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n九、繼續審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n十、繼續審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n十一、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n十二、繼續審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n十三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、繼續審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員許智傑等24人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員李坤城等22人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。\n十七、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員李昆澤等30人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「資通安全管理法第六條、第七條及第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議進行逐條審查；第十六案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第十九案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月21日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-22T08:30:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T13:08:00+08:00","duration":16662,"影片長度":"04:37:42","委員發言時間":"08:30:18 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漏洞急需追捕本修正草案旨在強化國家整體自動安全法律規範促進政府跨機關合作與區域聯防並提升公司部門資安防護能力本修正草案於113年7月4日提報行政院院會通過並函請立法院審議立法院自113年7月12日一讀交互委員會審查"},{"start":2461.075,"end":2473.506,"text":"並經再檢視多數與委員沈伯陽等17人 葛如君等21人賴銳龍等17人 黃潔等17人 林怡瑾等18人陳樹悅等24人 林俊憲等16人羅美玲等21人 胡思堯等17人臺灣民眾黨團 邱若驊等17人 蔡其昌等18人"},{"start":2484.847,"end":2497.443,"text":"李柏毅等18人許智傑等24人李坤澄等22人陳冠廷等16人李坤哲等30人黃秀芳等21人及顧玉清等19人共19項提出"},{"start":2499.807,"end":2517.829,"text":"修正提案均與行政院版本立法方向大致相同經本部拜會各委員逐條溝通結果你左採委員意見修正以求周妥此次自動安全管理法修法其能帶來多方面的"},{"start":2519.311,"end":2543.808,"text":"尤其是強化國家整體資安防護提升公司部門資安韌性因應新興威脅等方面更具前瞻性及時效性懇請委員多予支持其機關報告請各位參考書面並列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2546.329,"end":2567.807,"text":"現在進行宣讀條文如有修正動議或附帶決議也請一併宣讀資通安全管理法修正草案第15字第20案條文對照表委員許志傑等提案以及委員李坤誠等提案第一章總則"},{"start":2570.973,"end":2584.489,"text":"允許字節等提案第一條為修正同線型條文委員李昆哲等提案第一條刪除線型的維護社會公共利益等文字其與同線型條文依行政院提案第二條對照"},{"start":2587.233,"end":2615.637,"text":"以下各委員委員許智傑等提案第二條委員陳冠廷等提案第二條委員李坤哲等提案第二條委員黃秀芳等提案第二條委員李坤誠等提案第二條捐同行政院提案依行政院提案第三條對照委員許智傑等提案第三條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第三條"},{"start":2618.058,"end":2641.574,"text":"至第五款均同行政院提案第六款的首句關鍵的前面沒有特定兩個文字其餘同行政院提案第七款的前段修正為指行政院公告之關鍵領域中該領域服務所依賴"},{"start":2643.752,"end":2666.841,"text":"之系統或文物之實體或虛擬資產等文字其餘同縣刑條文第八款同縣刑條文第九款在中段第一項的後面沒有第四項等文字其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":2671.161,"end":2698.17,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案第三條至第六款未修正同進行條文第七款前段修正為指能源水資源通訊傳播交通金融緊急救援與醫院政府機關科學園區與工業區等行政院"},{"start":2698.97,"end":2722.506,"text":"並其檢視並公告之領域中該領域服務所依賴其與同行政院提案第八款的前段予以修正修正為自維運或提供關鍵基礎設施之全部或一部所依賴自資通系統或調度控制系統等文字"},{"start":2723.246,"end":2742.338,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第九款同行政院提案委員黃秀芳等提案第三條同委員李昆哲等提案委員李昆誠等提案第三條同行政院提案"},{"start":2744.707,"end":2766.708,"text":"依行政院提案第四條對照委員許智傑等提案第四條以及委員李坤澄等提案第四條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第五條對照委員許智傑等提案第五條以及委員李坤澄等提案第五條之一"},{"start":2768.464,"end":2797.516,"text":"以及委員黃秀芳等提案第五條之一委員李坤哲等提案第五條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第六條對照委員許志傑等提案第六條以及委員李坤誠等提案第六條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第七條對照委員許志傑等提案第七條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第七條"},{"start":2803.209,"end":2817.446,"text":"除第一項的前段有一個文字 知重要性的知以及在第三項的後段修正為專職人員之資格與配字"},{"start":2818.692,"end":2845.669,"text":"之外其餘同行政院提案文官疫情等提案第七條第一項字第三項同行政院提案然後中令第四項文之內容為主管機關的是公務機關或特定非公務機關之規模資安資源業務屬性及其他情形設置輔導機制以協助其逐步符合相關等級要求"},{"start":2846.79,"end":2873.656,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案第七條同行政院提案委員黃秀芳等提案第七條同委員李坤哲等提案委員李坤誠等提案第七條同行政院提案一行政院提案一行政院提案第八條對照委員許志傑等提案第八條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第七條之一"},{"start":2876.03,"end":2896.563,"text":"除第二項以及第五項外期與同行政院提案在第二項的部分後段修正為改善報告應送交上級機關、上級政府監督機關或中央目的事業主管機關審查後並送交資安書"},{"start":2900.765,"end":2922.526,"text":"還有第四項第四項的後段內容與方法的後面沒有改善報告之提出等文字然後第五項修正為第一項集合郵支安署擬定年度計劃後辦理年度計劃及年度成果報告應送交國家支通安全匯報被查"},{"start":2925.885,"end":2951.734,"text":"委員黃秀芳等提案第七條之一同委員李寬哲等提案委員李昆城等提案第八條同行政院提案以行政院提案第九條對照委員徐志傑等提案第九條以及委員李昆城等提案第九條均同行政院提案以行政院提案第十條對照委員徐志傑等提案第十條同行政院提案"},{"start":2954.608,"end":2982.951,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案第9條B1項以及第2項同行政院提案然後增訂第三項文字內容為前項書面契約之格式內容中央主管機關應訂定定型化契約範本及其應記載及不得記載不得記載事項委員李坤誠等提案第10條同行政院提案"},{"start":2985.697,"end":3013.284,"text":"一行政院提案的第二章對照委員許智傑等提案第二章以及委員李空城等提案第二章均同行政院提案一行政院提案第十一條對照委員許智傑等提案第十一條同行政院提案委員郭玉琴等提案第十條之一第一項同行政院提案的第一項"},{"start":3015.56,"end":3036.476,"text":"然後增訂第二項文件內容為主管機關應建立危害國家之通安全產品專案核可案件之資訊查詢與管理平台會整個機關專案使用之產品類別核可條件及使用機關等資訊供主管機關掌握與追蹤管理第三項"},{"start":3038.438,"end":3048.316,"text":"第三項以及第四項同行在院提案的第二項以及第三項文成貫庭等提案第九條之一"},{"start":3049.622,"end":3072.975,"text":"第一項的但書修正為但依業務需求且無其他替代方案者得經該機關自動安全長和可函報主管機關核定後得以專案方式使用並列冊管理第三項修正為危害國家自動安全產品資產品清單由主管機關定期公告之"},{"start":3074.177,"end":3080.993,"text":"除以上修正外 其餘同行進任提案為李空城等提案第十一條同行進任提案"},{"start":3082.762,"end":3110.394,"text":"因行政院提案第十二條對照委員許志傑等提案第十二條以及委員李昆城等提案第十二條均同行政院提案因行政院提案第十三條對照委員許志傑等提案第十三條以及委員李昆城等提案第十三條均同行政院提案因行政院提案第十四條對照委員許志傑等提案第十四條同行政院提案"},{"start":3111.96,"end":3127.842,"text":"委員李坤誠等提案第十四條除第三款的墓具尊併併附資資安署等文字外其餘同行政院提案依行政院提案第十五條對照"},{"start":3129.724,"end":3157.292,"text":"委員徐志傑等提案第15條以及委員李昆城等提案第15條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第16條對照委員徐志傑等提案第16條同行政院提案委員李昆城等提案第16條也是同行政院提案依行政院提案第17條對照委員徐志傑等提案第17條"},{"start":3159.83,"end":3182.08,"text":"以及委員李坤哲等提案第17條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第18條對照委員徐志傑等提案第18條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第15條第一項的後段修正為設置專職支通安全人員辦理支通安全"},{"start":3184.146,"end":3209.546,"text":"業務及應變處理、自動安全業務、績效平和優良者應予獎勵在第二項的後段資安署的後段這邊增訂禁語兩個文字第三項修正為前二項人員調度資源、績效平和獎勵及職能訓練相關事項之辦法由主管機關定制"},{"start":3211.124,"end":3236.107,"text":"主委上修正話七日同行政院提案委員黃秀芳等提案第十五條同委員李坤哲等提案委員李坤誠等提案第十八條同行政院提案因行政院提案第十九條對照委員徐志傑等提案第十九條同行政院提案委員陳冠廷等提案第十一條之一"},{"start":3237.188,"end":3262.893,"text":"文字内容为公务机关自自通安全专职人员需通过试任性安全查核前向试任性安全查核程序内容及其他相关事项由资安署定之未通过查核者不得办理涉及国家机密、军事机密及国防机密自自通安全业务用人机关基于个人资料保护规定因保密处理不得遗嘱他用违反者是情节予以益处"},{"start":3263.453,"end":3278.164,"text":"委員李坤誠等提案第十九條同行政院提案依行政院提案第三章對照委員許智傑等提案第三章以及委員李坤誠等提案第三章張敏君同行政院提案"},{"start":3280.1,"end":3308.279,"text":"依行政院提案第20條對照委員徐志傑等提案第20條同行進院提案委員李坤哲等提案第16條中央目的事業主管機關因遵循相關公務機關民間團體專家學者意見後擬定關鍵基礎設置提供者之指定清單報警行政院核定以書面通知之其指定基準廢止條件及程序由中央目的事業主管機關公告之委員李坤哲等提案"},{"start":3309.557,"end":3327.051,"text":"第十六條之一 關鍵基礎設施提供者應致知通安全長尤其代表人、管理人其他有代表權人或其指派之適當人員擔負負責推動及監督機關內知通安全相關事項"},{"start":3331.746,"end":3346.324,"text":"在第二項的部分聚首沒有特定兩個文字其餘同行政院提案的第二項第三項也是聚首沒有特定兩個文字其餘同行政院提案的第三項"},{"start":3347.952,"end":3363.298,"text":"第四項在前段關鍵的前面也是沒有特定兩個文字在中段的部分文字內容系統之規模後面是集的文字集性子其餘文字也同情這一院提案的第四項"},{"start":3364.608,"end":3391.329,"text":"第五項也是舉手沒有特定兩個文字在中段在中段的部分計畫實施的後面沒有清醒兩個文字其餘同行政院提案的第五項第六項同行政院提案的第六項委員陳冠廷等提案第十六條同行政院提案"},{"start":3392.458,"end":3412.854,"text":"委員黃秀芳等提案第16條以及委員黃秀芳等提案的第16條之一均同委員李昆哲等提案的第16條以及第16條之一委員李昆誠等提案第20條同行政院提案"},{"start":3414.502,"end":3434.702,"text":"依行政案提案第二十一條對照委員徐志傑等提案第二十一條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第十七條第一項的文職內容為關鍵基礎事實提供者以外置特定非公務機關應置支通安全長由其代表人管理人"},{"start":3436.44,"end":3465.312,"text":"其他有代表權能或其指派之適當人員擔任負責推動及監督機關內自動安全相關事務第二項的部分也是在聚首沒有特定兩個文字其為同行正願提案的第一項第三項第三項至第五項同行正願提案的第二項至第四項"},{"start":3469.842,"end":3493.05,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案第十七條除第一項的中斷修正為設置知通安全人員晚期與同行政院提案委員彭修芳等提案第十七條同委員李坤哲等提案委員李坤誠等提案第二十一條同行政院提案"},{"start":3494.4,"end":3503.999,"text":"依行院提案第22條對照 委許斥諧等提案第22條同行建院提案委員禮崑哲等提案第17條之一"},{"start":3507.335,"end":3535.18,"text":"第十六條之一及前條之自動安全維護計劃必要事項實施情形之提出集合之頻率決定基準程序與方法結果之交互改善報告自提出及其他應遵形式想製辦法由中央目的事業主管機關擬定抱有管理機關合併委員黃秀芳等提案第十七條之一通過委員李昆哲等提案"},{"start":3537.56,"end":3559.469,"text":"委員李坤誠等提案第22條同行政院提案依行政院提案第23條對照委員許志傑等提案第23條以及委員李坤哲等提案第23條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第24條對照委員許志傑等提案第24條同行政院提案"},{"start":3560.269,"end":3576.233,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案第十八條在第二項的默劇徵定中央目的事業主管機關應設置通報窗口線上通報平台或通報專線第四項"},{"start":3580.39,"end":3605.162,"text":"在第四項的手續通報的後面是及的文字其餘同行政院提案委員李坤誠等提案第24條同行政院提案依行政院提案第25條對照委員許志傑等提案第25條以及委員李坤誠等提案第25條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第26條對照"},{"start":3607.743,"end":3629.448,"text":"委員徐志杰等提案第26條以及委員李昆成等提案第26條均同行政院提案以行政院提案第27條對照委員徐志杰等提案第27條以及委員李昆成等提案第27條均同行政院提案委員徐志杰等提案以及委員李昆成等提案第4張張明法則"},{"start":3632.495,"end":3644.541,"text":"行政院提案第28條對照委員徐志傑等提案第28條同行政院提案委員陳冠廷等提案第19條除第一項的守據"},{"start":3645.987,"end":3665.787,"text":"本法規定的後面沒有辦理兩個文字外其餘同行政院提案委員李坤誠等提案第28條同行政院提案依行政院提案第29條對照委員徐志傑等提案第29條以及委員李坤誠等提案第29條均同行政院提案"},{"start":3667.455,"end":3695.516,"text":"依行政院提案第30條對照 委員徐志傑等提案第30條同行政院提案 委員李昆哲等提案第20條在第一款在第一款的條文部分修正為 未依第16條之一第一項第二項或第"},{"start":3698.414,"end":3712.332,"text":"17條第一項第二項規定中斷或違反第17條之一鎖定辦法第二款的部分為依第16條之一第三項或第17條第三項規定中斷違反第17條之一鎖定辦法"},{"start":3717.057,"end":3745.727,"text":"在第三款的部分衛一第七條之一第二項第十六條之一第五項或第十七條第四項規定中段修正委違反第十七條之一所定辦法處以向修正外其餘文字同行政院提案委員房秀芳等提案第二十條同委員李昆哲等提案"},{"start":3750.205,"end":3768.417,"text":"委員李坤誠等提案第30條同行政院提案一行政院提案第31條對照委員徐志傑等提案第31條以及委員李坤誠等提案第31條均同行政院提案"},{"start":3769.867,"end":3794.025,"text":"委員許智傑等提案以及委員李昆哲等提案第五張張明負責對照一行政院提案第32條對照委員許智傑等提案第32條同行政院提案委員顧玉琴等提案第6條在第二項的"},{"start":3795.883,"end":3815.041,"text":"據守修正為數位發展部之通安全在第四項的中段後修正為主管機關應協調與業務關聯性最高之中央目的事業主管機關辦理本法所定中央目的事業主管機關機關應辦理之事項"},{"start":3817.603,"end":3826.657,"text":"主委商修正外其餘同行政院提案委員李昆城等提案第32條同行政院提案"},{"start":3831.803,"end":3853.135,"text":"以下委員許智傑等提案第33條以及委員李昆城等提案第33條委員許智傑等提案第34條委員李昆城等提案第34條委員許智傑等提案第35條以及委員李昆城等提案第35條均同行政院提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":3862.436,"end":3881.084,"text":"現在宣讀完畢進行修正草案的協商除了各版本及修正動議 數位發展部也有送條文修正的建議也請大家一併參考現在休息五分鐘 請通知委員"},{"start":3901.31,"end":3902.974,"text":"这边有点热"},{"start":3909.48,"end":3910.5,"text":"這樣大家可以休息久一點"},{"start":3940.956,"end":3941.797,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3964.44,"end":3966.082,"text":"一開始他們都進去"},{"start":3979.71,"end":3987.553,"text":"現場的協商也算是處理的範圍之一對 處理的範圍之一我幫他協商 直接表決願會二不三的都算了協商也算 也算是願會的範圍對"},{"start":4009.885,"end":4010.605,"text":"謝謝大家,下次見"},{"start":4035.708,"end":4063.08,"text":"總統總統總統總統總統總統總統總統"},{"start":4063.58,"end":4067.263,"text":"有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦"},{"start":4089.701,"end":4094.442,"text":"我們希望你加下去不要看如果是同意的話就同步"},{"start":4118.969,"end":4121.55,"text":"奶茶 咖啡 咖啡喔因為他們跟我講奶茶沒關係 沒關係"},{"start":4485.011,"end":4508.277,"text":"好現在繼續開會那我們就現在開始處理條文部分就一張條順序第一張大家有沒有什麼意見總則 名稱沒有這個都一樣這個就通過了依照行政院提案通過"},{"start":4510.806,"end":4513.712,"text":"就章敏而已啦,章敏都一樣啦好,再來第一條"},{"start":4522.202,"end":4547.128,"text":"第一條大致上也大概都差不多好那個羅美玲委員好謝謝主席第一條立法目的大概就是我的部分跟院版有一點點的不太一樣因為我把那個促進產業發展及提升全民資安意識有拉進來因為我覺得這也是立法目的那資安署有來做溝通說其實這是放在第四條你居然第四條裡面"},{"start":4548.328,"end":4566.486,"text":"第一款就已經有提到了這也是對法目的為什麼沒有在這邊把他拉進來好這是好在這個部分的話看看這個治安署有沒有這樣怎麼樣的這個說法好以上好治安署好各州軍委員剛才舉手呀好沒意見好好謝謝"},{"start":4573.018,"end":4593.764,"text":"好謝謝羅文的非常寶貴的意見因為第一條是立法的目的立法目的一般來講應該是比較大的一個方向因為在第十條裡面其實已經有這個相關的促進產業發展因為跟這個提升產品資產運勢這個都是比較執行面我們要去推動的事情那在第十條裡面已經有說明"},{"start":4594.284,"end":4621.639,"text":"我們要去推動這個相關的這些制通安全的事項所以我們還是建議說在這個地方還是保留原來的條文就是保障國家安全之外是維持社會公共利益我想這樣子維持驗版的條文我想整個立法的目的是可以比較大的一個宏觀的一個角度 以上謝謝OK好那第一條大家有沒有什麼意見沒有意見我們就照行政院提案通過"},{"start":4623.838,"end":4626.443,"text":"現在第二條大家有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":4631.214,"end":4653.389,"text":"謝謝趙偉也謝謝我們今天有這個資安法的排審那本條呢關於本法的主管機關本席的版本呢當時是參考全民健保法的第四條主管機關是衛福部這樣的一個寫法而不吝寫全民健保相關業務由健保署辦理那本席的版本主要是考量資通安全的業務涉及的範圍其實很寬廣"},{"start":4655.03,"end":4678.925,"text":"橫跨速發部的本部以及下轄的兩個署以資通安全產業來說主要是由速發部底下的數位產業署主管但是整部的這個資通安全管理法與資通安全的產業可以說是密不可分另外序名特別做在法條裡面去序名資安署辦理國家資通安全業務"},{"start":4680.146,"end":4695.784,"text":"是有点担心日后恐怕会在分工上面出现问题那另外一方面本次自动安全管理法的修法以后其实某种程度是赋予主管机关更大的权利也扩大办理业务的范围那在本条以及后续相关的条文里面"},{"start":4696.405,"end":4717.092,"text":"直接續名由一個編制117人的三級機關來辦理全國性的資安業務恐怕會有層級不夠高量能不足的問題那因此希望第二條能夠採取本席的版本由速發部來擔任主管機關那後續的條文也不要直接寫由資安署辦理"},{"start":4717.612,"end":4746.295,"text":"所有的业务呢再由抒发部进行内部的分工才比较合适否则的话治安署在这一步法通过以后很可能会117个人会握有一个全国性检查的或者是相关的这个权利行政的权利尤其又把整部法变成是治安署那以后相关的事务就变成是治安署这里来做抒发部会不会有不知情无法调度等等的这个困难或问题"},{"start":4747.476,"end":4774.12,"text":"變成治安署看起來很像治安部我想如果真的有這個需求也可以來討論治安署是不是要變治安部如果沒有這樣子的一個討論我們還是希望說這一條是不是能夠照本席的版本去做這個速發部這樣的一個做法就好不必另外列名序名是治安署好謝謝謝謝好有沒有其他有意見我們先聽那個那個速發部"},{"start":4777.225,"end":4790.192,"text":"謝謝郭委員的意見我想整個資通安全政策的推動它其實是有層級的包括行政院負責整個政策的相關的制定我們速發部負責相關的政策規劃資通安全署負責整個政策的執行"},{"start":4795.695,"end":4820.594,"text":"那它整個是一個有階層性的這樣的一個架構在推動整個資安的相關的工作那這邊提到當然是整個主管機關是社會發展部這次絕對沒有問題那這時候要條例這個資通安全署來負責整個相關資通安全的業務主要是有一些相關執行層面的業務我們希望說可以更快速由這個資安署這邊就來相關的這個處理包括像通報像一些應變的處置"},{"start":4821.875,"end":4845.251,"text":"那我們接著如果說這個東西再報到這個塑化部再回到這個署裡面來執行那個程序效率可能比較會有影響所以我們這邊就直接寫由這個治安署來執行那另外我們有參考其他部會的法例定法例包括這個鐵路法裡面也有定相關的例如說鐵道局負責相關鐵路的這個監理的工作那專利法裡面也有定到例如說由經濟部來指定相關機關來執行相關的工作"},{"start":4847.592,"end":4861.23,"text":"所以相關部會的這個定法其實也會考量到整個行政效率等等相關的考量那由這個相關的像這個署或是局來執行相關的這個工作所以我想跟國務委員這邊做一個說明以上謝謝那個國務委員OK嗎"},{"start":4867.66,"end":4884.718,"text":"謝謝我想這個還是沒有回應到我主要的顧慮啦我其實也是希望說速發部有比較通透的通暢的能力來做資安相關的管理啦那我們的這個版本其實也有參考全民健保法第四條"},{"start":4885.379,"end":4908.795,"text":"也就是只寫衛福部不定寫這個健保署那另外呢這個如果速發部覺得還是要界定清楚要有一個文字的話我是提議說那是不是資安署的這個部分就是後面的這一段國家自動安全業務由數位發展部自動安全署辦理的這個這一段落呢移到說明欄位就好"},{"start":4909.355,"end":4931.477,"text":"那我想這樣子既然在法條裡面也清楚的看得到但是我想也不會說整部法在這個審查檢核等等所有的執行都只是由這個治安署來做那我想這個治安署可能會有這個這個負擔過度的責任跟權力的這樣的一個疑慮謝謝"},{"start":4934.66,"end":4956.614,"text":"我們請次長跟各位報告第一件事第一項我們是沒有動本法主管機關是數位發展部所以數位發展部負責全國的資安業務這個是責無旁貸不會發生說資安署這個是我們兩個版本都一樣的我們後面之所以要訂的其實就是跟各位剛剛提到一樣我們中間有很多條文是執行事項"},{"start":4958.696,"end":4975.471,"text":"各位這個顧慮是很正確就是資安署的確他是在層級上是三級機關可是他執行的時候他要法律明確的規定那如果定在說明欄其實反而會造成分工不清楚那比如來講說我們有一些這個這個這個集合的報告是要交給資安署的"},{"start":4975.951,"end":4996.706,"text":"那如果沒有訂在那邊其實對其他各機關也會造成很大的困擾就是到底要交給數位發展部呢還是要在資安署所以我們還是會建議說我們第二項還是訂這個資安署然後後面的條文來明確定說資安署的權責這樣子對各機關也方便對我們執行也方便但是不會影響第一項就第一項數位發展部要負責全國的資安業務統籌來辦理這個是責無旁貸的"},{"start":5002.386,"end":5021.623,"text":"好 其他委員有沒有什麼意見主席 主席那個趙委員因為我是建議這樣啦我們那個數位部這裡啊黃部長可能跟有關單位如果委員有不同意見的時候我希望簡略說明其實目標都一致啦"},{"start":5022.344,"end":5047.192,"text":"目標都一致只是到底兩個數要放在說明或者放在這裡我是建議這個是非常小的事所以為了順利把這個華該過的過 該保留的保留所以不希望說在這裡打轉那是不是我們葛委員他已經提出他的看法那看大家做得到做不到那如果做不到我是建議"},{"start":5048.813,"end":5056.163,"text":"有歧見的話就盡量保留再來做協商說明這樣會比較好一點我們才有辦法順利啦好不好"},{"start":5059.422,"end":5083.894,"text":"主席好謝謝林國昌委員我想這個因為我們才在第二條啦我大概理解速發部的想法我有一個提議因為後面其實有幾條都有提到列明治安署這件事我們是不是這個第二條的這個議題我們先稍微排後面一點我們待會碰到的時候我們再回來討論這樣好不好這樣也算不在就是在保留跟通過中間這樣好不好"},{"start":5085.505,"end":5113.099,"text":"我們先往後一點討論好不好我想跟趙偉是不是有機會可以這樣我們就先往第三條處理這樣子但是暫時保留那後面我們有幾個條文還會遇到啦那也許我們待會還可以再回來第二條好不好他這個後面有很多就直接寫資安署那我們遇到的時候我們再回來講所以就是暫時保留然後後面遇到的條文我們再回來講這樣好不好那那個說不好謝謝OK"},{"start":5117.662,"end":5140.223,"text":"好 那現在第三條在第幾頁第三條在16頁那個狗油菌委員好 謝謝昭偉那我們也謝謝速發部以及相關的單位在這一條上面可以說是用心努力"},{"start":5141.444,"end":5156.149,"text":"我想本條有關本法的用詞定義本席的版本在第一項第八款與第九款與院版有所不同針對第八款本席認為行政院版本目前採用的特定關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":5158.61,"end":5181.036,"text":"其實我們有聽到一些說法說這樣子的一個定義呢是由行政院的國土安全辦公室堅持的那當然我們理解啦就是資安及國安但是因為這個範圍跟範疇會影響到非常多的機關跟設施所以從單從字面上來看"},{"start":5182.316,"end":5199.538,"text":"我們其實如果只講特定關鍵基礎設施的話沒有辦法從字面上立刻理解是指關鍵基礎設施當中的資通系統因為這一副法叫做資通安全管理法而不叫做關鍵基礎設施管理辦法"},{"start":5200.319,"end":5217.175,"text":"所以呢我想考慮到未來在其他法條當中可能會涉及關鍵基礎設施的其他系統比如說還有電力系統還有水利系統這些都是關鍵基礎設施當中的特定關鍵基礎設施未來要如何與現在所指的關鍵基礎設施中的"},{"start":5217.515,"end":5242.642,"text":"知通系統做區別這個其實可能就會未來產生一些疑義比如說我們現在要管理的是台大哲學系那我們就講清楚是哲學系而不是管理台大否則未來可能還有其他要管動物系的還要管戲劇系的這個其實大家在用語上面可能會有彼此衝突的問題所以本席認為在本法的第三條第一項第八款的用詞定義"},{"start":5244.282,"end":5270.31,"text":"因为我们这一部法就叫做资通安全管理法所以应该要续名关键资通基础设施的提供者那更加符合本款以及本法的意旨那另外的第九款呢特定财团法人是修正现行条文当中政府捐助之财团法人本席对于正院版呢新增了财团法人法第二条第三项"},{"start":5271.05,"end":5298.088,"text":"中华民国34年8月15日以后我国政府接收日本政府或人民所遗留之财产并以该等财产捐助或成立之财团法人推定为政府捐助之财团法人以及第63条第4项推定为政府直接或间接控制该财团法人之人事财务或业务的民间捐助财团法人"},{"start":5301.65,"end":5327.526,"text":"存有高度疑慮首先我说明一下这个我们做了非常多的努力跟研究首先我必须说明要扩大自动安全管理法的适用范围必须先了解修法后到底会有哪些财团法人会被扩大适用于本法因为本法有检查有调查有需要配合去做说明等等"},{"start":5328.598,"end":5354.705,"text":"那截至目前為止本席四次要求資安署提供到底接收日本政府或人民所遺留財產捐助成立之財團法人的清單到底有哪些但是直到今天我們已經逐條了資安署到目前為止還是沒有辦法提供聽說本項有一個說法是只屬於總統府的國安會直接下令要求新增到底有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":5358.793,"end":5360.958,"text":"這個國土安全辦公室好像也有來"},{"start":5364.84,"end":5391.951,"text":"這個訴發部好像至今也搞不太清楚狀況如果主管機關訴發部本身都沒有辦法掌握本法擴大的適用範圍提出這樣的修法等於是要我們立法委員給予一張空白授權等同於想要向立法院去要一個特權讓行政權無限擴張讓政府的手可以伸進每一個想要監管的財團法人這一點我們是真的存在高度的疑慮其次依據訴發部的說明"},{"start":5393.832,"end":5408.2,"text":"也跟各位说不好意思这条我说明会稍微长一点因为他非常细节魔鬼藏在细节里那依据速发布说明增加财短法人法第二条第三项主要是这是速发布给我们的说明"},{"start":5409.361,"end":5434.988,"text":"他們說呢速發部說主要是想要納入財團法人台灣電信協會和財團法人台灣郵政協會這個就是所謂日據接受日本政府或人民所留財產等等我們剛剛有講財團法人法第二條第三項但是呢速發部所提供給我們的資料是我手上這一份自己打臉自己啦在現行條文之下台灣電信協會和台灣郵政協會已經受到"},{"start":5439.016,"end":5467.025,"text":"治安法的監管了也就已經在裡面了根本沒有必要去修法擴大所以我們看到的這個所謂要納入第二條第三項完全是沒有必要新增進來的那如果不是只有這兩個那到底是還有其他哪些所謂的日本政府或人民所遺留財產或以該等財產捐助或成立之財產法人有哪些"},{"start":5467.725,"end":5494.683,"text":"目前為止除了這兩個郵政電信協會郵政協會完全沒有提出那這就是空白授權嘛你以後又再發現說誰跟日據時代這個財產有關你就要被迫一體適用本法的資安規定有可能被授檢查被授調查這難道是我們的書發部想要的嗎我相信也不是所以我想這部分我們站在我們的立場我們是有高的疑慮的同時還有"},{"start":5496.364,"end":5510.1,"text":"資通安全管理的修法我們剛剛也提到也想要納入第63條的第一項這一點也邀請各位委員不管是哪一個黨派的委員我們都希望注意這一點我念清楚"},{"start":5511.881,"end":5537.75,"text":"第63條這個書發部院版要納入的是財團法人法第63條第一項這個第一項是什麼呢是民間捐助之財團法人符合下列情形有加強監督之必要經主管機關指定者以及第63條第4項推定為政府直接或間接控制該財團法人之人事財務或業務的民間捐助財團法人"},{"start":5538.65,"end":5559.966,"text":"本席辦公室也對此數次向資安署進行了解因為外界可能會有疑慮啊你這個是不是帝王條款數位中介法的精神要藉著資通安全法來借勢還魂呢那我們去問資安署資安署說有方案向各機關進行調查但只有金管會"},{"start":5561.087,"end":5570.092,"text":"有回覆說有六個需要加強監督的單位我手上也有這我就不一一念了包含金融聯合徵信中心等"},{"start":5571.577,"end":5599.044,"text":"換句話說其餘有13部8會呢都認為沒有必要擴大資通安全管理法的適用對象那如果只有這6個那你就多增加這6個就好你為什麼要突然寫一個這麼大的範圍第63條第1項跟第63條第4項呢那無意是這個把範圍擴大如果你是只打這6個那你就是大炮打小鳥因為你把那麼大的一個項目把它放進來那只打這6個沒有意義"},{"start":5599.904,"end":5618.897,"text":"那我们或外界就会合理的怀疑是不是想要把合法的去把手伸到这些未来可能被列入的财团法人里面要用治安事件的名义对这些未来的被列入的我们刚讲了只要有"},{"start":5620.236,"end":5648.039,"text":"加強監督的必要經主管機關指定者的財產法人都可以喔那變成呢是用資安事業的名義對這些財產法人甚至他們往來的所有私人企業以及民眾進行行政調查那我手上有一份是可能是在這個範圍裡面的是在這個範圍裡面的這裡面呢有一大堆的基金會有一大堆的財產法人"},{"start":5648.962,"end":5659.527,"text":"甚至像交通部底下還有中華航空事業發展基金會是華航的那你是不是有可能未來我這一份裡面這麼厚"},{"start":5661.161,"end":5681.622,"text":"這些只要你隨時把他指定進來你們通通可以去進行調查只要說有資安事件這難道是你們想要的嗎那這可能就會假資安之名行侵害企業營業秘密侵害民眾隱私知識啊因此不好意思我這段發言比較長是因為魔鬼常在細節裡只多了幾個"},{"start":5682.603,"end":5690.851,"text":"好像就是我們多納一點行政團這個財團法人也沒有很多啊就兩個啊財政啊對不起郵政啊電信啊也就是這個金管會報來的六個啊"},{"start":5696.001,"end":5718.848,"text":"我再講一次財政這個電信郵政本來就已經被你們納管了金管會的這六個那你就六個直接把他納進去你不要包山包海去包了一個財政法人法裡面有可能被擴大成這麼厚的名單的東西我是建議真的不要好不應該去任意擴大所以本席呢像速發部數次所知溝通啊"},{"start":5719.868,"end":5738.064,"text":"認為本法第3條第1項第9款應該維持現行條文不應該任意擴大本法的適用範圍本席對此也有提出修正動議也希望所有的委員一起來支持我想不同黨派的應該也都不會希望發生這樣的事情所以這一點不好意思召委借用一點時間來進行比較完整的說明謝謝"},{"start":5742.345,"end":5760.527,"text":"謝謝 這個剛才那個第三條有葛如君等的一個修正動議還有侯孟楷等的修正動議我們先請議事人員宣讀完再請我們委員繼續發言修正動議一第三人委員葛如君的"},{"start":5762.662,"end":5790.434,"text":"針對那個第三條對照行政院提案的第三條在第八款的部分刪除行政院聚首的特定兩個文字以及在關鍵的後面徵定滋通兩個文字第九款修正為政府均註資財團法人子期營運及資金運用計畫因依預算法第41條第三項規定送立法院及其年度預算書因依同條第四項規定送立法院審議之財團法人"},{"start":5791.554,"end":5821.054,"text":"修正動議期提案人委員黃孟楷等對照行政院提案在第三條在第第六款的部分莫具徵訂或受政府控制之事業團體或機構等文字第七款的前段修正為指能源水資源通訊傳播交通金融緊急救援與醫院政府機關科學園區與工業區等行政院"},{"start":5823.436,"end":5842.832,"text":"並其檢視並公告之領域中該領域服務所依賴之等文字在第八款的部分也是將行政院聚首的特定兩個文字可以刪除在關鍵的後面增訂知通兩個文字第九款修正為政府"},{"start":5843.252,"end":5857.158,"text":"均注資財團法人此起引運結智運用計畫因依預算法第41條第三項規定送立法院及其聯度預算書因依同條第四項規定送立法院審議之財團法人宣讀完畢好那現在我們請林國成委員發言"},{"start":5866.773,"end":5876.309,"text":"另外葛如今委員跟我們洪孟愷委員有提修正案因為本黨團也是民眾黨的黨版"},{"start":5877.799,"end":5907.539,"text":"我要建議我們數位部大概整個大方向應該都是一致的只是因為本黨所提出來的也就是第三條第一項第六款的部分在不足的部分我們的版本是有修正幾個字針對幾個字也就是受政府控制之事業團體或機構這個部分我們是要把它加下去所以這個就提供"},{"start":5908.66,"end":5929.2,"text":"這個提供給我們數位部這裡來看看這個要做如何的加入那另外一個我們的行政院版本那大致上方向都有但是是不夠周潛的地方啊也就是我們想針對第十款的部分因為我們到只有到第九款"},{"start":5929.781,"end":5949.991,"text":"所以民眾黨版本裡面定的很清楚也就是受政府控制之事業團體或機構指就是前市部公告的政府所屬的基金會這個就是我們前市部裡面所公告的基金會會盈利轉越累積的該事業資本20%也就是政府投資"},{"start":5956.734,"end":5973.885,"text":"20%或轉投資的事業都要受政府直接或間接其人事財務或業務的轉投資再投資的事業及團體跟機構這個我們把它訂得非常明確不要說這個法通過"},{"start":5975.666,"end":5993.331,"text":"但是你的對象不明確所以我們的版本是有針類第十項那主要我舉例大家可能會比較就像中華電信還有我們20%投資的這些都要納入我們那個通"},{"start":5994.071,"end":6022.604,"text":"通保法裡面的這些所有的規範所以這個部分我們建議我們民眾黨的版本我們是甄類那另外一個也是驗版裡面沒有甄類的我們還是想甄類第三項第一項第三條的第一項第十一款這也是我們版本裡面訂的很清楚也就是危害國家資安安全的產品"},{"start":6023.989,"end":6040.616,"text":"產品也就是大家不是我們本會委員包括黃國昌委員他都一直在指責資通也是危害國家資通安全產品對於國家的治安以及直接或間接造成"},{"start":6041.716,"end":6059.17,"text":"危害風險影響政府的及社會安定經主管機關定期公告通信通系統及資通服務的產品也要把它納進去如果這個法要定"},{"start":6059.91,"end":6083.069,"text":"方向大家都有了但是細節把它增下去這個是在第三條第一項第六款的部分還有增列第十款的部分跟十一款的部分這是台灣民眾黨所提出來未以完全周全的情況之下我們認為把它定下去會更完善"},{"start":6083.729,"end":6109.452,"text":"目標一樣但是這裡面的執行的細節明確化在我們的法條裡面這樣的話數位部也比較明確的執行的對象這樣以後不會有爭議所以敬請這個數位部採用台灣民眾黨的版本以上跟各位來做說明跟報告那其他委員有沒有什麼意見來 黃中凱委員"},{"start":6113.304,"end":6139.88,"text":"好 謝謝主席自通安全管理法我們大家部分朝野都認為說有自通安全加強的一個必要也因此大家各自有反論出來我想這對於中華民國來講就是我們要捍衛我們的自通安全這是大家共同的主張跟立場所以這是核心序名但是在第三條的部分為什麼那麼重要最重要就是因為它等於是管理的範圍跟管理的對象我覺得這有必要再請"},{"start":6141.161,"end":6169.529,"text":"速發部說明清楚因為就現在我們所看到的本期這邊有提到一個修正動議主要是針對第七款就是說關鍵資通基礎設施我覺得應該要寫得更加的明確因為能源水資源通訊傳輸交通金融緊急救援醫療政府機關科學園區工業園區這一些我想都是我們應該要受資通安全保障的也是公權力應該要介入的所以說這一些把它明確的寫出來那"},{"start":6170.029,"end":6189.829,"text":"其餘的部分還有什麼是訴發部認為沒有含瓜道的我覺得訴發部等一下也可以告訴我們一下因為你們所寫的是行政院定期檢視並公告的領域該領域服務所依賴等等的部分那這樣子會變成是有一個空白授權的概念未來行政院如果說有"},{"start":6191.521,"end":6219.484,"text":"檢視公告增加的話他可能不限這些基礎設施他可能也就會含括在這裡面那現在速發部你們的條文裡面因為不管是說明欄也好不管是這個相關條文裡面外界以及國人可能會擔心的是說未來有可能包山包海甚至侵犯到民間的一個部分所以這個部分麻煩請速發部等一下說明清楚那另外第九款也就是所謂的特定財產法人"},{"start":6219.904,"end":6235.668,"text":"我也認同財團法人如果是政府出資或是有相關比較重要財團法人當然應該要受資通安全的保障這一點無庸置疑但是你們今天所寫的其實最主要是63條第一項跟第四項的財團法人法裡面它是有民間捐贈的"},{"start":6237.569,"end":6265.145,"text":"那民間捐贈即便是有多少比例是有這個公股的官方的一個比例但是會不會有侵害到民間的一個狀況所以我們不管是我的版本或是葛國軍委員或是我們其他委員版本是有針對是說第九款政府捐贈的財團法人我們把它更明確化那我們這樣子的寫法跟速發布你們當初想像的財團法人的部分有哪裡不同等一下請告訴我們"},{"start":6266.025,"end":6278.802,"text":"是不是我們這樣寫法是也含瓜在速發部其實我相信速發部一開始提出來也是認為政府捐贈的財團法人特定的財團法人重要財團法人我們要有資通安全的保障管理維護這個我認同那"},{"start":6280.996,"end":6307.07,"text":"是不是現在大家看一下說如果我們所提出來的受立法院定期送立法院審議的財團法人其實也含瓜素發布你們當初預想的財團法人的話那是不是能夠用我們現在所提出來的條文以避免外界有造成誤會的地方那如果沒有的話請明確告訴我們你們的條文跟我們現在提出的條文裡面有哪些財團法人是"},{"start":6308.502,"end":6324.381,"text":"你們想要管理的那這樣子也讓外界知道是說到底我們速發部還想要管理哪些財團法人會不會造成民間的侵權我想這個部分是今天一定要說明清楚的以上 謝謝好 我們請林軍憲委員"},{"start":6328.137,"end":6354.382,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席 那個本集就剛剛洪孟愷委員所提的他的修正裡面我看洪委員是把我們關鍵基礎設施他直接把它寫出來那洪委員寫的這個其實也是行政院公告的關鍵基礎設施八大領域但後來行政院又增加了一個糧食所以現在其實是有九大領域"},{"start":6356.172,"end":6370.14,"text":"那我是建議啦就大家思考一下行政院版的他雖然他在法在魔法裡面他沒有寫有明確寫出哪些領域但是他本來他定期就會公告啦"},{"start":6371.392,"end":6392.162,"text":"大家知道時空的背景移轉等等與時俱進或者是狀況的改變那個靈異有可能會增加有可能會減少像以前政策關鍵記錄設施可能就五項六項現在行政院已經公告到八項現在又公告到九項如果你無法把它定死了你像行政院現在有公告兩死他也要公告"},{"start":6393.325,"end":6401.732,"text":"但是我們模仿裡面將這個就沒有寫到糧食那以後會不會有再增加那以後增加的話那你模仿沒有寫到沒有規範到會產生這種狀況"},{"start":6405.202,"end":6424.477,"text":"那行政會寫的第一個雖然看起來他沒有明確指出哪些可是原本行政會他就會締結公告有哪些我們就可以比對了啦所以我是建議這個不必把它寫死在有哪幾大領域啦因為關鍵基礎事實他本來就會變動的以上是我的意見謝謝現在我們請行政單位回覆一下"},{"start":6434.358,"end":6449.198,"text":"是 報告委員會幾個議題我們做簡要說明第一個是關鍵基礎設施那誠如這個林委員剛才提到就這個款在現行的條文跟現在行政院版是一模一樣的那本來行政院就會定期檢視並公告"},{"start":6450.62,"end":6478.669,"text":"那明訂下來反而會僵化掉就是他調整的時候但沒訂在上面固然現在這個提出來修正的版本裡面是說還有其他指定但是通常這種檢視跟公告目的就是說希望能夠定期的review同時讓外界有透明化可以公平所以這個中間完全沒有任何這個隱藏的空間所以我們當然還會覺得而且這個條文在第七款的時候跟現行條文一模一樣那運行多年來都沒有異議"},{"start":6479.329,"end":6500.581,"text":"那我們會建議說還是不需要修正就按照行政院版那至於第八款的特定關鍵基礎設施提供者那這個其實在條文內容裡面是講得非常清楚就是前面關鍵基礎設施依賴的系統那關鍵基礎設施已經是行之有年的這個名詞各機關這民間大家都非常清楚那我們如果再"},{"start":6501.261,"end":6523.3,"text":"中間在差勁資通其實是自私一本那所以我們只是在前面加一個特定就是說有些關鍵基礎設施他沒有資通系統的時候就不在這個範圍之內那有關鍵資料有資通設施依賴的那我們就加進來所以我們當然還是會建議維持這個行政院版本特定關鍵基礎設施提供者那這個也跟各部會都談過了那目的事業主管當然也都覺得說這樣的寫法是比較妥當的"},{"start":6526.303,"end":6546.585,"text":"那至於第九款的財團法人我要跟各位報告就是說我們現在現行的條文完全是背後沒有任何政治的考量是因為財團法人法修正之後把政府捐助的財團法人分成三種一個從出資的來看一個是從這個日治時代這個遺留下來的那這其實只有兩個也不會再動了因為"},{"start":6547.586,"end":6564.182,"text":"日治時代已經離我們很遠了就只有電信協會跟郵政協會沒有其他再冒出來第三個是政府實質控制的那我們是因為財團法人法的修正我們完全比照財團法人修正全部移過來那各位會擔心說有沒有增加其實現行納管157"},{"start":6566.664,"end":6583.429,"text":"在財政法人法修正之後反而變成137減少了20個所以我們其實在這一條條文裡面真的資通安全法修正的時候完全沒有考慮說要把哪一個特別拉進來這個是沒有的完全是財政法人法怎麼定我們就怎麼處理"},{"start":6585.61,"end":6608.442,"text":"如果譬如說從剛才談到日誌的部分預算法41條第4項就是我們現在看到的這個葛路軍委員版本的這個預算法41條第4項同樣的電信協會跟郵政協會按照預算法他也是要送到立法院這個預算審議的所以其實這個條文完全是因應財團法門法修正把它定清楚而已完全沒有任何這個"},{"start":6610.183,"end":6633.634,"text":"政治的考量也好或者是要侵犯人民的權利也好所以我們剛才也報告過所以納管數量其實如果財政法人修正之後反而變少所以大概的情形是這樣我們反而是民眾黨的版本就跟林昭偉報告就是林國生跟昭偉報告說我們真的會覺得說那樣反而會變比較麻煩因為如果降低門檻到20%會增加177個"},{"start":6636.795,"end":6658.508,"text":"那這個會有非常多的地方的財團法人會被納進去那其實對地方政府因為治安的責任不是只有中央有地方也有那地方的這個政府也會造成非常大的困擾所以我們還是會建議說維持行政院版本那行政院版本是完全按照財團法人法修正之後的結果那沒有增加任何的反而減少那跟各位做報告"},{"start":6664.885,"end":6683.837,"text":"葛國軍委員謝謝趙偉市長我想我也是非常尊重您的法律背景但是有幾點我還是想要再補充說明一下首先您剛剛提到的第八款其實你們用的特定兩個字其實是某種程度來講是有違法律的明確性原則"},{"start":6684.978,"end":6704.166,"text":"所以我們才特地說這就叫做資通安全法嘛所以你就不用什麼特定嘛這個關鍵基礎設施第七款還在喔我先講因為語言上大家可能會融入誤會我們是不是就沒有關鍵基礎設施不是喔是說當我們提到關鍵基礎設施提供者的時候應該要指定是資通"},{"start":6704.966,"end":6733.28,"text":"基礎設施不然你裡面的水啊 電啊 糧食供給啊這個其實變成那些東西的提供者這個範圍馬上就擴大了所以這一點我是希望第八款呢還是要放資通兩個字進來再來第二點剛剛市長你有回覆說你們都依照財團法人法來做沒有政治的考量對 但是我們也知道現在這個狀況我們就看法條啦我們就看法條跟看文件第一個"},{"start":6734.908,"end":6752.453,"text":"財產法人法第63條第一項我再說一次這個法的所指定的這個財產法人是可以變動的而且只要什麼條件就可以變動呢只要有加強監督之必要經主管機關指定的立刻就可以加進來"},{"start":6753.905,"end":6775.328,"text":"我手我剛剛之所以為什麼我花那麼長時間解釋這一份資料只是冰山一角是全序不提供給我們的裡面有華航有貿易中心有文化基金會我們在座有桃園的委員還有小學的文教基金會在裡面啊我是不想念是哪個小學啊"},{"start":6776.26,"end":6804.493,"text":"一大堆全部的文教基金會國小全部都進來桃園的這個教育真的是做得很好所以裡面一大堆文教基金會宜蘭也有這個各式各樣的基金會只要主管機關伸手一指進來這個就是一個菜單這是一個帝王條款的菜單這是速發部要的嗎速發部不能一句話說我們依照財產法人法指示"},{"start":6805.513,"end":6831.576,"text":"那你速發部不是變成下級機關了嗎怎麼會這樣呢 對不起喔我想我們都是資訊人啦市長又是法律人所以我是建議這一條是不是就按照我們的版本第一就是第八款對不起 我們現在提出的修正動議我想因為剛剛好我們的版本跟這個院版有出入嘛"},{"start":6832.216,"end":6858.583,"text":"所以我們也依據這樣我們也提出一個修正動議我們的修正動議就是這一條我們就不要修了這一條我們就不要修了這一條我們就不要修了我們就回復原狀那否則的話此例一開這個門一開又多一個菜單又多一個日治時期什麼什麼這個我覺得範圍會太大希望懇請與考慮好不好謝謝我們的修正動議就不要修了這一條就不要修了謝謝"},{"start":6861.024,"end":6887.597,"text":"我還是跟我還是跟那個數位部建議行政院板送到立法院來是大家可以談大方向議題都一致只是不足的部分委員跟各政黨把它提出來更完善所以我還是建議數位部千萬不要因為你們提出來就"},{"start":6889.438,"end":6915.244,"text":"義窮不變的如果不傷整個你們設定出來資通安全管理法的本質我還是建議能夠參考就參考那以現在剛才次長所講如果這個分歧跟抗華差異那麼大我建議主席就先行保留因為後面沒有爭議的先讓他過有爭議的進行溝通跟說明"},{"start":6916.204,"end":6932.865,"text":"取得最後的這些大家的共識這樣的話省預算不要各收各的如果是這樣的話那省的沒完沒了所以我建議第三條的部分先保留再行溝通以後我們再來討論"},{"start":6935.615,"end":6944.681,"text":"關鍵基礎設施的部分不動那關鍵基礎設施提供的那如葛委員剛才所提的維持現行條文也不動那這個我們可以接受那其他部分就按照院版通過"},{"start":6966.896,"end":6983.286,"text":"這個針對的部分反而就是反而跟格文的主張會有一點出入就是他會增加非常多會增加177個那剛才提到的格文所提到說那個指定的會變成地方的其實不會因為指定的我們一定要指定全國性的採訪法人才能指定"},{"start":6990.948,"end":7005.742,"text":"那各位請到補充我剛有一點口誤就是說按照我還是就是我也也也聆聽看這個抒發部因為還是在執行所以看抒發部的想法那我們有提出我們的版本之外我們的修正動議是針對"},{"start":7007.324,"end":7034.195,"text":"第九款 針對第九款修正動議就是說我們不修正就是我們第九款特定財產法人就不要擴大也不要減少 我們就維持現在那我想行之有年了也許也沒有問題假設未來真的有需要還可以再討論那所以這一點我再簡要補充 謝謝現在主要是第九款那第九款如果倒了行政機關可以參考我們的意見就是"},{"start":7040.287,"end":7060.066,"text":"我們有對第六款我們也有放就是因為我們也是怕你後面東西你有一些想管理的政府捐助的財團法人我們有幫你放進來就是你不要是特定財團法人是政府捐助的財團法人不然你其實特定財團法人的範圍其實也還是"},{"start":7061.443,"end":7089.727,"text":"現在我們也看到還是有一些不確定性所以我想這一點看是不是也考慮一下我先確認一下我們先一項一項來現在就七八九款嘛那如果說第九款財團法人的部分因為我們剛剛提到就是說現行已經有規範就是政府捐贈財團法人如果維持原型條文這樣速發部可以接受嗎第九款因為這個也是我們就想說你這樣子我們"},{"start":7091.124,"end":7098.598,"text":"政府確認財團法人應該要受自通安全保護這過去現行條文已經有了那只是說你們現在在做這樣子財團法人法的一個調整"},{"start":7099.721,"end":7118.691,"text":"到底多增加哪些反而會造成外界的疑慮你們想要再多進來哪些那如果說這樣的話那維持現行條文政府捐贈的財團法人第九款不變是不是可以接受第九款維持現行條文"},{"start":7121.192,"end":7133.289,"text":"那第七款現行條文跟行政院版是改變了所以是現行條文嘛那我現在在確認是會維持現行條文但第七款跟第八款我們可以做討論"},{"start":7137.751,"end":7152.669,"text":"從第六開始到九因為六是連動的六七八九那這一條其他的部分我們就按照行政院版我主張這樣我們針對的地線線不是按行政院版喔"},{"start":7153.951,"end":7164.362,"text":"第十 第十項都還沒有一個充分的理由我說要針對的部分是沿著你們方向不變我們是針對這些很明確"},{"start":7168.783,"end":7185.044,"text":"不是啦 那我建議這樣好不好 我建議這樣先保留啦 再談啦好不好先保留再來不是啦 先保留保留我主張保留你總是要說服我我把你們寫得更明確你們又不要寫得模擬兩可"},{"start":7186.721,"end":7209.387,"text":"對不對我們民眾黨幫你們寫的更明確的東西在整個執法的部分你們又怕什麼扣大不扣大我坦白跟你講沒有20%的這個是值得你們想什麼特定不特定我這些是依照前世部公告的東西也就是依照我們"},{"start":7210.802,"end":7238.666,"text":"考試院的前事部那種東西範圍已經很明確那這個當然要納管啊不然的話還是所以我是建議這樣啦市長我是建議這樣啦如果沒有共識我還是建議讓主席有一個計系走就先保留好不好我建議先保留那其他要溝通要如何去處理那我們還有下一次嘛或者等一下大家有溝通你也想通我也想通"},{"start":7239.286,"end":7265.739,"text":"那再回來來討論這個嘛你不要說我們建議這些你那個理由不能說服我嘛不增加的我要把它明確化你不增加那不增加的理由你是怕什麼我想至少我們這邊跟速發部有一個共識就是速發部這邊可以做就是六七八九不修正就是以現行條文那這個我們是可以接受民眾黨說要往後"},{"start":7267.58,"end":7289.889,"text":"那待會這個我就對我想先確認一下那個林軍縣委剛有舉手我同意6789不要修正啦因為你第九款吼這個原本我們對這些財產法人的納管是依照財產法人法嘛那你如果改成預算法的話那就會有很多原本納管的財產法人就會不在裡面了啦"},{"start":7291.236,"end":7297.995,"text":"那就以我們的建築精神的話其實我覺得第九款應該是維持原版的規定以上我意見"},{"start":7300.962,"end":7325.772,"text":"報告你維持現行條文現行條文你維持現行是157個嘛啊你如果改掉以後變137個嘛那你乾脆列出哪20個哪20個少了這個給大家看嘛好不好現在大概是行政院民進黨國民黨都認為6789維持現行條文都可以接受那現在剩下民眾黨"},{"start":7327.192,"end":7347.301,"text":"那個林國成召委這個部分意見還有一些意見嘛那現在林國成召委就是說現在民進黨國民黨跟行政院大概都有這樣子的共識如果你可以的話我們就按照這個就直接來通過我想大家都有經過仔細的思考也會尊重民政黨的意見"},{"start":7349.943,"end":7361.3,"text":"我針對的部分他們說出的理由因為我針對的部分跟本質沒有改變嘛但是只是明確化嘛我現在就是說國民黨 民進黨"},{"start":7365.126,"end":7389.375,"text":"行政的意見都差不多可以嘛林國成可以 我們就6789不是啦 肅發部應該要去看一下啦台灣民眾黨是現行9款裡面多增加第10款跟第11款那如果說現行條文1到9尤其我們剛剛講的6789如果國民黨跟民進黨都已經同意就是維持現行條文 肅發部也可以接受"},{"start":7389.815,"end":7408.317,"text":"那這樣子就不變但是是不是能夠多增加民眾黨所提的第10款跟第11款如果可以的話就加進去這樣子民眾黨也沒有意見了嘛那如果說你們覺得有意見第10款第11款為什麼不能加你要說服林國成因為現在變成不是國民黨跟民進黨的問題了解我們剛才有跟這個"},{"start":7410.639,"end":7436.842,"text":"照林委員報告 加地實款的20%會增加非常非常多其實正好跟剛才葛委員提到說不希望擴增而且我們舉實際例子我們已經調出來了包括桃園市政府要管魚市場的系統苗栗縣政府要管苗栗肉品市場的系統彰化縣政府要管魚市場嘉義市政府要管肉品市場嘉義縣政府要管阿里山公共造產"},{"start":7437.563,"end":7461.205,"text":"那其實對於縣市政府的負擔會非常非常大OK 這樣沒關係啦 我們這樣啦 就是如果剛剛郭委員要跟林國成委員討論那林國成委員 現在你認為說還是很堅持就先暫時保留啦 好不好"},{"start":7462.366,"end":7468.796,"text":"好啦 他現在說他在擋板 他還在忙電動團啦那說明你總是要讓我傳達 或者要去說明所以這個還是"},{"start":7475.051,"end":7492.786,"text":"不是不是不是這個因為我們一向我們一向做事情就是要把它明確化那當然這個顧慮的部分也就是說是否會擴大20以上會擴大這種東西你總是要讓我跟黨裡面說明清楚"},{"start":7493.487,"end":7517.359,"text":"因為我們這個是黨版如果我個人版我馬上可以做決定這是黨版所以請大家也給我一點時間你們要派人來說明然後他們也是認為說啊這個放下去可能會扣大多少那我們的黨版說好那還是原則性尊重尊重所以我還是希望說在這個部分這樣這次第二條一樣暫時保留"},{"start":7521.942,"end":7522.986,"text":"來,我們來看看什麼樣的"},{"start":7525.991,"end":7554.191,"text":"我講一下就是說因為這一次的修法其實醞釀很久啦那他最主要是要把一些能夠管理的範圍做一些擴增這個大家應該整個書包鋪跟委員應該都很清楚那第一個階段其實就像這一次非公務機關等等之類的納入第二個就是上次我們在講的就是有一些他可能是在民間然後呢他的個資可能是比較多的也可能要納管但那個時候我們在討論的時候就說因為我們不可能一次性的把那麼多的事情在第一次的修法就搞定"},{"start":7554.691,"end":7569.141,"text":"所以第二次的修法的時候再去把那些涵蓋可能譬如說各自比較多的啊或者像上次我之前提到民眾黨那個催靠者保護法的網站啊這些其實都會有一些疑慮但如果要把這些全部納管用一個抽象的法制放的話太"},{"start":7570.062,"end":7584.242,"text":"這個沒有辦法在這一次討論完畢因為他並沒有在這一次原版的範圍之內也不在一開始在520之前就已經在討論的這個修法範圍所以我認為說其實如果可以的話就停在這個第九款第十以後可能可以移到下一次的時候再來討論"},{"start":7588.772,"end":7609.011,"text":"好最後就是如果民眾黨OK就6789照原來的現行的通過如果民眾黨不OK我們就暫時保留等一下你去問一下你等一下可以問一下休息之後可以問一下如果可以再回頭再讓他通過的話我們再回頭好那現在這個就先暫時保留好第四條"},{"start":7614.813,"end":7642.575,"text":"第四條在五十頁好 那個葛珞晶委員等一下 李坤澤委員好 謝謝召委等一下 等一下他那個又有修正動議對 那個對 一起看修正動議要先宣讀一下那個黃建豪等那個葛珞晶不是本委員會所以以黃建豪為主黃建豪等這個第四條修正動議麻煩議事人宣讀"},{"start":7644.724,"end":7659.494,"text":"修正動議二提案人委員黃健豪、葛禄君等第四條對照行政院提案在第一項的部分徵訂第五款文字內容為五 協助民間處理及因應重大滋通安全事件 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7660.731,"end":7683.599,"text":"好 那個國務卿委員完 等一下李昆哲委員好 謝謝昭偉那我想這一條本席是因為近來一直都有發生多起民間企業醫療院所遭到駭客勒索的事件也有很多是半導體科技業那顯示要去建立一個政府跟民間資安聯防的機制真的是有它的重要性跟急迫性"},{"start":7684.299,"end":7710.97,"text":"因此本席的提案版本是在第一項第五款來新增政府來協助民間處理因應重大資安事件來可以去協助他們處理因應跟防範因為這個部分它就是政府有一個這樣的精神跟態度並沒有說民間不得拒絕所以我覺得這也是一個善意它並沒有一個過度擴權的疑慮反而是政府可以負擔更多的責任"},{"start":7711.69,"end":7735.66,"text":"把一雙安全的大手伸向我們的來協助民間真的有必要的話民間無路可走了那他可以來向政府來尋求協助那這一點我們事前有跟速發部來溝通有獲得速發部認同那我們算是在雙方的共識之下來提出修正動議那也懇請各位委員還有本會本委的委員希望可以一起支持謝謝"},{"start":7737.861,"end":7749.01,"text":"謝謝李君哲委員 剛剛抱歉因為本委員優先我先看到葛國軍 不好意思李君哲委員謝謝趙偉最主要 我也是第一次發言應該是優先的一個發言"},{"start":7750.888,"end":7774.269,"text":"那第四條是有關於民間企業納管跟資安自主的一個平衡的問題那近年來我們看這個民間企業尤其是金融業跟電商的業者他們的資安漏洞都會引起社會大眾的一個疑慮那其實我們看到其實民間的這種資安防護"},{"start":7775.49,"end":7791.238,"text":"是有待加強但是另外一方面我們來看如果資安監管的範圍過度的擴張那恐怕也會引發政府來干涉企業資訊自主營運的這樣的一個疑慮甚至擴權侵害人權的隱憂"},{"start":7796.261,"end":7819.872,"text":"或者是中小企業湊然面對過大的經營壓力這就像台語說的 低怕死 傍怕飛因此我們政府除了要以法規來要求企業提升資安的標準之外我想蘇衛部也應該要積極提供資安技術的資源"},{"start":7821.813,"end":7839.684,"text":"或者是培訓課程或是建立治安的這種共享的平台那幫助企業尤其是中小企業提高自主防護的能力不是一味的要強化管制的相關的措施這等一下再請蘇衛部說明一下以上謝謝那我們請那個沈波漾委員"},{"start":7849.093,"end":7876.591,"text":"我基本上認同就是說呢這個像現在第四條第五款這樣的一個定法當然重大我知道書房部要把重大放上去可能是因為怕真的是太多啦那但是這個比較被動的方式就比剛剛那個第三條好是因為畢竟它就只是民間如果說有這個需求的時候至少還有一個基礎那書房部可以做協助所以還是再回去我還是很希望趕快等一下第三條還是能夠定案不要再往下拖因為第三條現在就是把這個範圍定得太廣"},{"start":7878.252,"end":7893.395,"text":"如果說我們先把它範圍限定然後利用像這個第四條第五款的一個方式然後去把一些能夠協助的先有一個協助的機制被建立之後以後再慢慢的把這個範圍擴大不然這樣一直擴大下去真的會是沒完沒了"},{"start":7895.003,"end":7922.534,"text":"好 謝謝 何孟愷委員好 謝謝召委那幾個部分第四條我們支持這個葛無軍跟黃建豪委員就我這邊也有提的這個修正動議我想第四條的主要重點在於是一開始開宗明義就有講政府提供資源整合民間跟產業的力量提升全民之通安全意識嘛那既然是要整合民間跟產業力量提升全民之通安全意識其實在第五款新增"},{"start":7923.274,"end":7936.869,"text":"因應重大之通安全事件來協助民間處理我想速發部則無旁貸這也是國人期待速發部能夠做的事情那尤其是定義重大之通安全事件因為後面有寫到"},{"start":7938.271,"end":7956.701,"text":"前項相關事項的推動主管機關擬定計劃方案到行政院核定換言之主管機關也可以來定義何謂重大之通安全事件所以主管機關定義之後如果說這一款第五款新增之後主管機關擬定"},{"start":7959.052,"end":7981.694,"text":"發展方案到行政院核定未來國家社會面臨到重大的自通安全事件的時候速發部就有法源依據可以來協助也可以來那個因應所以我想這一個部分如果能夠新增上去的話對於我們的民間自通安全應該是有所幫助以上謝謝好我們請蔡吉昌副院長"},{"start":7984.06,"end":8000.299,"text":"好 謝謝齁 這個第四條齁我謝謝大家都我看起來很多委員的版本都很接近啦齁這個本席在質詢的時候我就已經問過速發部嘛齁我們提出了很多的案例這個案例民間的規模大到"},{"start":8001.48,"end":8015.407,"text":"舉例啦 比如說中華電信他的data已經大到幾乎快要涵蓋全台灣的資通安全了嘛 個資等等所以類似像這種重大的或者大型的民間他面臨"},{"start":8017.016,"end":8038.187,"text":"這個安全問題的挑戰的時候我覺得它視同為跟國家的這個國安的重大安全其實議題是一樣的所以本席最早提出這樣的一個修正那我看今天也包括修正動議也都很多委員都提出我覺得大家都有這樣的共識那我想就不用再浪費太多時間如果大家都有這樣的共識"},{"start":8039.708,"end":8053.756,"text":"速發部的態度是怎麼樣我想請主席趕快問一下如果大家都沒意見我想因為一開始我提嘛看起來現在大家各黨都提了我覺得這個很好嘛大家都有共識是不是速發部有一個態度我們就趕快來把這條做決定"},{"start":8055.731,"end":8079.276,"text":"好 那個謝謝幾位委員的這個寶貴意見包括剛剛葛羅軍委員還有幾位像黃孟愷還有蘇建豪還有我們剛剛我們執政黨的委員那因為這個提案在原來裡面包括蔡吉昌委員跟羅梅林委員還有葛羅軍委員都有提這個提案那事實上我們也溝通過所以這邊的包括就是我們第五款我們就增加協助民間處理跟營運重大的自動安全事件那蘇華部這邊沒有意見 謝謝好 照修正動議就是那個"},{"start":8089.949,"end":8117.53,"text":"但是参集商委员的非常接近文字上要念一下要确定一下因为有修正动议也有参集商委员的版本两个大概差三四个字来啦 赵伟我建议速发部拟一个版本出来大家签名啦好不好 这样可以吗速发部拟一个文字出来速发部直接翻译大家签名啦这样就照这个再修正动议啦 好不好"},{"start":8122.631,"end":8131.536,"text":"就打在那個字幕上對 就打在那個字幕上 大家看一下"},{"start":8154.182,"end":8155.283,"text":"防彈處理防彈處理"},{"start":8190.045,"end":8198.367,"text":"改成那個協助民間處理及因應重大之痛安全事件大家看一下"},{"start":8207.042,"end":8223.136,"text":"好 這樣子OK齁召委 召委整合蔡其昌委員跟我們修正動議啦協助民間處理頓耗因應及防範重大滋通安全事件啦好不好 那這樣子大家的精神也都進來對啦"},{"start":8230.083,"end":8259.338,"text":"那因為重大我想這就是讓速發部來定義啦不然未來可能個人的駭客入侵還是什麼他也說要速發部可能速發部這樣子到最後也沒完沒了啦我這個是實際上運作的狀況也給速發部做參考啦好不好補充一下重大的定義在那個刺痛安全事件通報及應變辦法裡面有重大的定義啦所以我覺得這應該法律上沒有太大的問題重大應該沒有問題還有沒有其他委員有意見"},{"start":8261.636,"end":8289.063,"text":"好 那速報部OK嗎OK好 那我們就這樣子 協助民間處理逗點因應 頓耗 因應 我在想什麼 因應及防範重大滋通安全事件 這樣好不好好那我們就照行政院速報部提案修正通過在四條 再來在五條"},{"start":8291.278,"end":8317.389,"text":"第五條還有一個修正動議洪孟凱等的修正動議我們還是先宣讀一下編號修正動議八提案人委員洪孟凱等第五條對照行政院提案在第二項的中段部分知通安全匯報的後面徵訂由行政院院長召集相關部會首長"},{"start":8318.289,"end":8331.782,"text":"專家學者及民間團體代表共同組成專家學者及民間團體代表不得低於三分之一至少每三個月開會一次必要時得召開臨時會議訊號完畢好 這一條大家有沒有什麼意見好 第五條好 那個林國昌委員"},{"start":8345.525,"end":8366.737,"text":"這個在我們版本裡面大概也差不多啦這三分之一至少三個應該是應該這種應該是這個就要看數位部啦因為大概也把它放進去的話那我們黨裡面的就沒有什麼意見了"},{"start":8371.982,"end":8397.208,"text":"黃孟楷委員好 感謝那個 趙偉本條是新增 現行法條沒有那本條新增行政院的文字是寫說行政院應召開國家之通安全會報幕僚作業由主管機關辦理本席認同 因為國家之通安全會議也好 會報也好或是相關的開會 這都必須要做那只是 大家也都知道現在科技日新月異"},{"start":8398.708,"end":8424.141,"text":"兩個月三個月AI進步的陳述學習的陳述甚至駭客等等相關也都有非常突飛猛進的發展也因此我們猜想是說不能只是因召開會議要把相關的時間定下來並且也要授權主管機關這邊要有定期的這個開會的內容那以及"},{"start":8425.021,"end":8448.566,"text":"專家學者民間代表也可以來做這些意見專業意見的交流以及提供專業意見的判斷所以這也是為什麼本席會提出這個修正動議認為是說院長召集相關的會議三個月至少三個月開一次那必要時候召開臨時會議因應重大的資通安全的相關事件發生那這些部分"},{"start":8450.112,"end":8459.744,"text":"讓第五條能夠更完整也讓我們真真正正的這個所謂的國家自動安全匯報能夠落實來去執行以上 謝謝好 國務卿有言"},{"start":8468.786,"end":8490.514,"text":"這條我們有一個想法是因為我們也是覺得是由行政院院長來擔任召集人因為我們看了一下行政院院長擔任召集的人的有行政院文化會報行政院毒品防治會報行政院治安會報跟國家化學物質管理會報這幾個是由院長來擔任召集人"},{"start":8490.774,"end":8502.248,"text":"因為治安真的非常重要尤其在下一個世代我們對於所謂的國安的定義所以這一點我沒有特別堅持但是稍微說明一下我們為什麼會認為是應該有院長來擔任召集人謝謝"},{"start":8505.97,"end":8527.47,"text":"好 黃建豪委員好 謝謝張委員那我想這個因為在這個新增版本裡面院版本來只有講說是由行政院應召開這個國家資本安全匯報好 但是因為這個行政院到底誰由誰來召開我想法沒有明定那我覺得這個在柯澤上面會有一些問題所以我們才把說這個應該由行政院院長來召集相關部會首長的部分把它放進去那當然"},{"start":8528.01,"end":8545.465,"text":"在實務上面院長會被指派其他人那是院長的事情啊那他如果指派其他人那但是最後的苛責的對象當然還是院長那我們也希望說既然這個資安這麼重要那確實就應該由院長來負責任而不是就單純由行政院這樣子一個比較隆統的概念來處理以上謝謝好那行政單位"},{"start":8553.385,"end":8573.178,"text":"跟委員會報告就是說現行我們其實是有一個資安長的體系那院的資安長是副院長那所以行政院這副院長就是主持這個匯報那提升到行政院 行政院長的事務是非常非常繁忙的那反而會就是資安長的體系沒辦法建立所以我們當然"},{"start":8574.319,"end":8598.724,"text":"當然會建議說按照院版其實沒有問題就是我們現行就是副院長來召開這個自動安全匯報而且不光是各部會其實我們會邀請其他各院甚至地方政府因為這個自然是一個全國性的事務那這些詳細的都會定在我們將來的辦法裡面其實我們現行有定一個要點所以我們現在最後一項有寫說國家自動安全匯報的組成任務議事程序跟相關的辦法"},{"start":8599.844,"end":8613.316,"text":"有行政院定制 就是這個不是速發部可以隨便定的這是行政院定的那這樣其實是最完整的就是那如果我們在這邊定死了其實反而不好調整那國家事務安全會報其實我們當然都一定會定期召開 這沒有問題跟各位報告好 那其他委員 陳書業委員"},{"start":8624.55,"end":8651.759,"text":"謝謝主席就是針對草案第五條我這邊是有一個文字的一個建議修正就是在第一項的部分就是院版是就是說未落實國家資通安全政策各政府機關中央及地方間那我就建議說這邊是不是就把它修正成中央及地方政府機關間因為我想這樣子的文字意義並沒有變可是是比較精簡一點"},{"start":8652.819,"end":8663.455,"text":"那我是這樣子的一個建議那另外就是說有關這個召開國家自動安全匯報這邊本協是建議說是不是要明定要定期召開好像是會比較明確謝謝"},{"start":8668.052,"end":8690.312,"text":"定期可以啦但是定多好其實讓我們在辦法裡面定辦法到時候也會送到立法院來查照這樣那那個委員有期許說希望這個我們同意說我們其實可以在說明來說清楚說現在這個是由這個行政院副院長召集這個包括中央地方各院來這我們在說明來做補充好了來那個改一下就是"},{"start":8696.01,"end":8697.611,"text":"在上面改一下,讓大家看一下"},{"start":8720.475,"end":8743.102,"text":"好那這樣子那個洪委員那個時間不用訂那麼細啦就定期那來那這樣子因為剛剛這是母法就是法令的一個精神嘛你說不要說至少三個月開一次但是你們自己的一個期待譬如說你的相關辦法部分你們預計定期會多久開一次"},{"start":8746.498,"end":8763.538,"text":"還是你要不要寫進法跟你們實際做其實我重點是在於是落實啦你們自己期待到底多久開一次也是三個月我們現在的大概至少半年會開一次至少半年對有重大的資安情勢變化的時候我們會再增加召開那這個其實我們會建議說這讓我們在辦法裡面寫"},{"start":8769.85,"end":8793.437,"text":"所以至少你現在的規劃是至少半年開一次會然後必要時召開臨時會議對不對我想這樣好不好那這樣子我們是不是保留必要時得召開臨時會議這部分必要時得召開臨時會議"},{"start":8797.301,"end":8811.926,"text":"好先改一下沒關係那那個黃建豪委員好謝謝主席那個確認一下你們提的這個國家自動安全匯報的這個程序跟行政院國家自動安全匯報設置要點是一樣的事情嗎還是不一樣"},{"start":8813.971,"end":8837.98,"text":"就是這個事情吧那你因為你們在這個行政院的這個國家資產會報的設置要點裡面有提到說會議裡面當然會所指派所謂的學者那才有兼由學者專家來參與會議但是並沒有寫到比例的問題那我想在這個修正棟裡面洪孟凱委員提到的其實包含說希望說專家學者跟民間團體的代表不要低於三分之一就是不能全部都是政府官員這樣的比例"},{"start":8838.72,"end":8847.054,"text":"你們因為在本來的行政匯報要點在這個國家安全匯報要點裡面沒有設置所謂比例的問題那如果把它入法對你們來講會不會有障礙以上"},{"start":8850.189,"end":8872.337,"text":"這第一個跟我們報告就是說我們還是建議說民間的代表不要定死因為國家所謂國家資通安全匯報主要是政府的這個資通的聯防的問題那所以我們還是建議說不要定死比例但是一定會邀請專家選手來參加而且我們會看議題那看這個專長選手是不是可以容許我們在這個執法裡面來做詳細的規定我想這個"},{"start":8878.559,"end":8896.286,"text":"我們提的臨時動議都有尊重嘛就是定期然後必要時召開臨時會我想這個法不要定那麼細啦那大原則精神我們可以把握住這樣好不好不是不是我民眾黨的版本是跟他的修正動議啊大概目標是較為接近啦"},{"start":8897.026,"end":8914.145,"text":"那剛才數位部就是考慮到本來你們平常的資安長是副院長來主持嘛那事實上我們訂這個是比較明確化其實像在這個部分在這個部分應該是院長到底是院長或副院長應該"},{"start":8916.141,"end":8944.722,"text":"照我們的版本可以參考一下也就是行政院院長或指定人這個問題也是解決所以就變成院長已經入這個華很明確的以示行政院長也重視這個會議也重視這個會議就變成不一定是院長來開啊他有時候指定秘書長指定副院長都可以啊"},{"start":8946.014,"end":8971.45,"text":"所以我是覺得說有時候我不明確化的法令設定總比在那邊模擬兩可還好所以我還是建議是否可以採用這個部分就可以解決不一定院長但是表面上院長要負這個全部責任但是由他指定的人包括秘書長包括副院長都可以這樣的話"},{"start":8973.311,"end":8989.107,"text":"或指定這個問題就可以解決啊為什麼我們要把它明確化你們認為你們認為一定是照你們的版本所以這個我還是建議我還是堅持還是照能不能照民眾黨的版本"},{"start":8991.705,"end":9014.658,"text":"跟林昭偉報告 可不可以這樣子好不好就說昭偉我們就按照指示說我們加油行政院長及指定職人擔任召集人在底下卻職專家真的就不要幫我們定死因為我們其實治安議題非常多我們通常會看不同的議題來處理如果這樣子的話我們就按照昭偉指示前面那段"},{"start":9015.698,"end":9023.101,"text":"加一句話說由行政院長或指定職人擔任召集人那後面的就還是回到我們的版本可以嗎"},{"start":9027.052,"end":9046.177,"text":"這個特別啊不是啦特別跟我們主席跟各位在座的委員做說明跟報告我坦白講黃部長在這裡次長你在這裡民眾黨的版本你有些都有去溝通到現在為止我沒有接到你們溝通"},{"start":9049.277,"end":9075.957,"text":"沒有時間去溝通有時候我已經跟你講今天是台灣民眾黨的版本非林國成委員的版本所以到現在為止你們都沒有溝通可是我沒有接到這些溝通啊也不召會啊來開會的是我啊那我相信將心比心啊不管國民黨也好民進黨也好黨版的東西"},{"start":9077.136,"end":9093.441,"text":"我要去推荒真的是很困難的事所以我還是認為如果不行那還是保留再來溝通好 謝謝那個包括那個林國成委員 趙偉其實他有去找你們當團 請你們當團用力啦這個大概我都知道這個過程沒關係那我們就是"},{"start":9100.492,"end":9112.236,"text":"改這樣子好不好行政院院長或指定之人擔任召集人必要時得召開臨時會議那其他的細節我想法就不用聽那麼細我們就照這樣OK嗎"},{"start":9120.166,"end":9135.138,"text":"其他的要點就讓他再要點如果在這個部分啦要這樣的話要這樣的話還是要有一個附帶附帶結議就是把這些細節的部分定在你們的實行細則辦法裡面這樣較為明確就連貫性啦好不好"},{"start":9143.359,"end":9147.941,"text":"行政院長或其指定之人這個指定之人有點會放在法律裡面喔"},{"start":9165.646,"end":9189.686,"text":"就沒有必要 坦白說行政院沒來他有副院長代替或什麼 那他們有他的機制嘛那如果多一個指定之人 變成他如果今天院長心情好想指定任何人是不是都可以我們本來是寫副院長嘛那就是 不然就院長或副院長嘛 這樣可以嗎行政院院長或副院長可以啊院長或副院長嘛 本來就是 他們是副院長嘛那你們現在意見就院長或副院長嘛這樣好不好"},{"start":9192.868,"end":9194.53,"text":"自然實際上是副院長在付錢"},{"start":9208.649,"end":9229.967,"text":"這個來市長市長我建議這樣啦 專家協者還是把它放進去那至於其他要多久開一次會由你們去做決定這樣就變成這個版本已經容縮院長副院長也就是你們的資安長他也可以去開會但是把專家協者的部分也把它秀下去 秀在華裡面這樣"},{"start":9232.009,"end":9246.693,"text":"才比較有一個明確的法令照報告我們可不可以這個寫在說明欄裡面說我們會邀請專家學者來參與這樣因為專家學者他如果那個定下來以後真的資安議題是非常多的啦我們開會通常都會找那個議題的特別專家那個是專家學者也是一樣啊也是一個授權那個也是你們在找的"},{"start":9269.435,"end":9279.08,"text":"具部分其實是非常多的如果要這樣放其實是這時候永遠放不完我們第四項已經有授權我們會訂相關辦法這個辦法也會送到大院來備查這樣"},{"start":9286.245,"end":9294.253,"text":"那個地方我們說在他的說明欄或者是辦法把林國正委員你們考慮的問題也把它考量進來"},{"start":9297.199,"end":9311.439,"text":"我已經沒有要求你們把三分之幾三分之幾把它明確化因為如果你把院長跟副院長這個已經放進去把寫者專家也把它秀進去那這個華我就不堅持"},{"start":9313.121,"end":9340.994,"text":"也就是寫者專家 民間寫者專家把它秀進去 反正你們也要這樣做嘛把它放進去 那我就不堅持這個案子就照人修改所以照你們的那個稍微去修改 其他比例我就不堅持嘛那不然我這個黨版其實那黨給我的責任就是照照所有我們那個洪孟愷所修正的東西那你最起碼要把它放進去嘛"},{"start":9344.625,"end":9370.9,"text":"這樣好不好我們就再加一句話是不是可以召集相關部會先不要就直接就林昭偉只是強調是那個那個邀請學者專家跟民間團體參加就那是不是就在召集人對加得邀請得邀請得邀請專家學者及民間團體參代表出席"},{"start":9379.943,"end":9384.127,"text":"得邀請專家、學者及民間團體代表出席必要時的召開臨時會議"},{"start":9400.24,"end":9422.234,"text":"完善啦要完善因為我比較不贊同行政院版送來我們要照單前說這點我是很反對但是大家商討出來把言語不變但是內容充實這是立法院應該是雙方要溝通的那個不要說我們放任何東西都違反你們那個這點我是反對的"},{"start":9426.036,"end":9450.712,"text":"OK 那郭臣委員 現在就是說把你的意見也加進來嘛行政院長或副院長擔任召集人 這個是葛委員跟黃委員的意見嘛邀請專家學者及民間大德 邀請專家學者及民間大德這個是林委員你們的意見嘛 現在都有放進來林石輝這個跟黃委員的意見大概都有放進來嘛 好不好那我們這個就照這樣子"},{"start":9452.433,"end":9481.666,"text":"照行政院提案修正通過那等一下我們休息十分鐘那是不是請那個林國成委員就是剛第三條你跟你們黨團討論一下看有沒有機會我們剛暫時保留看有沒有機會一併處理好了現在先休息十分鐘大家去上廁所一下"},{"start":9494.137,"end":9496.298,"text":"还有好几条啊"},{"start":10079.176,"end":10097.764,"text":"現在開始開會現在第六條黃靖豪等也有修正動議請宣讀一下修正動議三體驗人委員黃靖豪葛如君等"},{"start":10098.919,"end":10122.833,"text":"第六條對照行政院提案在第一項的部分中段並因定期兩個文字修正為每年以及在安全情勢報告的後面刪除對公務機關等文字宣讀完畢"},{"start":10125.558,"end":10150.576,"text":"好 那個國務卿委員好 謝謝張委員我表達一下本席是只對本條提出一個簡單的修正動議在第一項希望可以載明主管機關應該每年去公布這個國家自通安全情勢報告跟自通安全維護計畫的實施情形跟計劃狀況的報告那這一點我們有跟速發部有溝通過也達成共識也希望大家可以一起支持 謝謝好 速發部"},{"start":10156.144,"end":10176.427,"text":"有沒有意見沒有意見好那大家還沒沒有意見了好根據那個那照委員黃建豪國務卿等所提修正都已通過好那第七條第七條在哪裡"},{"start":10181.397,"end":10187.082,"text":"八十一啊七十九頁第七條大家要配一件好 國務軍人"},{"start":10192.988,"end":10217.433,"text":"這條一樣還是主管機關的問題因為這裡這一次院版的版本呢在主管機關全部都是寫治安署那我還是要表達這樣子的一個設計會不會到時候各部會在聯繫上面呢直接治安署變成天下第一署那速發部變得反而是不知情的狀況那我反而是為次長跟部長抱不平那我想這可能這個"},{"start":10219.133,"end":10242.962,"text":"反而怕這個到時候其實也會怕資安的這整體的這個戰略上變成有過度傾斜在單一的數那因為資安資通其實也有很多產業的部分所以這點我想沒有就是還是提出一下因為第7條那這點這個林國成委員有說暫時保留啦我說在主管機關的部分"},{"start":10244.358,"end":10254.352,"text":"行政院除了主管機關我們訂治安署真的沒問題因為比較明確大家才知道這個要送給誰來核定跟被查那所以這個沒有我們部長對署長這是有完全的這個指揮監督的能力這個沒有問題這樣子"},{"start":10261.369,"end":10282.267,"text":"我們會建議按照院版啦其實我是建議召委 雖然我不是本委不好意思還是尊重尊重本委員會但是因為剛剛林國成委員有針對主管機關這個部分也希望說我們剛剛有共識啦就說先暫時保留那我們是不是有主管機關的這個部分我們先到最後一次嘛那我們就一次回來跟第二條一樣 暫時保留嘛好那再來第八條"},{"start":10294.262,"end":10322.294,"text":"九十幾九二五九十第二條因為第二條就是到底是書法部還是治安署大家有暫時保留後面這個問題其實都類似類似第二條的問題九十四月第八條也是一樣就跟第二條一樣所以還是暫時保留"},{"start":10323.979,"end":10341.452,"text":"好 再來對 就是又卡住 數位部的卡在數位部的 還是那個產發署的現在跟第二條一樣嘛 都放在那啦113"},{"start":10351.152,"end":10369.957,"text":"113也是類似這個問題第九條113資安署或是速發部這個問題也一樣那這個跟第二條一樣一併暫時保留嘛好 大家有沒有什麼意見這條都一樣 這個問題改過就改過了現在看這個問題到時候再寫上去再說好了 119第十條"},{"start":10384.266,"end":10409.308,"text":"不一樣第十條大家來 葛珞俊委員這個謝謝昭緯那第十條現在有一個狀況就是資中安全的確保跟維護呢是很怕自己檢查自己自己說自己沒問題所以本席修正動議有就是我們有在想就是說"},{"start":10412.051,"end":10428.927,"text":"這個相關的建制應該要有檢查應該要有公正第三方的驗證那第四項呢則是強調一樣也是導入第三方協作的機制那這個再請這個速發部參考看看 謝謝"},{"start":10432.288,"end":10456.063,"text":"我們有跟委員報告過就是說因為治安的整個機制他事務非常繁雜所以他沒有辦法說每一種都用第三方機制但是在委員那個精神我們可以在相關辦法裡面去定說某些情形下有第三方機制但某些可能我們真的做不到所以這個是不是可以按照院版來通過那我們會在相關機制裡面把它處理進去"},{"start":10458.634,"end":10476.969,"text":"各位這個我是建議是不是可以保留下來因為我還是要強調啦因為我們之前呢在未還委員會也有執行過一個專案是一個好幾億的案子衛福部委託公演院"},{"start":10477.809,"end":10499.966,"text":"那工業院很可能未來在資安查核上說不定又委託資安院那變成政府的左手委託給右手右手又說左手做得好棒棒我覺得在資安上面如果沒有第三方公正進來其實我想這種自己監督自己的情況自己說自己好安全的情況我覺得也不會是我們政府表達安對國安的一種重視所以這一點"},{"start":10500.746,"end":10521.325,"text":"我們想要說是不是有機會我們是不是來保留一下未來可以跟產業有更多的溝通那因為在美國其實會有第三方公正的單位或者公司協力的做法所以這一點我們是希望看委員會這邊速發部這裡是不是我們可以保留本會委員有沒有意見"},{"start":10531.71,"end":10550.274,"text":"我是建議保留然後開供應會爭取業界意見的不然就像剛剛葛維銘所說的自己說自己好棒棒或說自己公務機關省自己的東西這個這個會不會專業都不足的問題所以我拜託我是希望先保留看後面要不要開供應會來徵求業界的意見以上"},{"start":10555.287,"end":10577.546,"text":"我們先謝謝召委這邊我想因為這個葛偉銀這邊提到其實是蠻重要的第三方的這個相關的這個驗證那這部分其實在我們的續行細則裡面都有寫所以事實上在續行細則裡面都有提到這個部分那但是因為葛偉銀這邊蠻重視這個部分那我想我們事先保留一下之後再看這個詳細的情況再來處理"},{"start":10580.014,"end":10607.052,"text":"好 那就先保留 後續再處理大部都保留了 大家可以稍微通融卡在這個樹花部分那個135頁第二章 章敏公務機關之通安全管理"},{"start":10610.01,"end":10610.771,"text":"隔路巡還有一條"},{"start":10623.288,"end":10642.282,"text":"那個沒有了好那就第二張到第二張張明明沒問題了你說葛如君有一個21人的提案是議題就不議裁了那個沒了嗎OK好那個葛如君等21條那個應該是黃建豪兩個本委員會好"},{"start":10648.413,"end":10653.316,"text":"好那第二張照片OK嗎那再來第11條來那個黃婕委員再來沈伯漾委員"},{"start":10661.735,"end":10691.113,"text":"好那针对这一条其实在院版跟那时候我跟部长在这边质询的时候我就已经有建议过部长了就是知道说这个因为其实在行政院2020年的12月的时候就已经下达这个下令公务机关原则上禁止使用及采购大陆厂牌资通讯产品的这个函嘛也就是说目前的公务机关本来就已经禁止采购跟使用任何中国制的资通讯的产品"},{"start":10691.633,"end":10710.411,"text":"那既然都已經是明確化了我那時候就建議說是不是可以直接入法把它寫到這個法條裡面然後那時候部長也表示同意我的看法覺得說寫在法條裡面是可行的可是目前看起來院版還是並沒有做這樣的修正那我是不是可以在這邊再建議說可以直接"},{"start":10710.951,"end":10733.281,"text":"其實也蠻多委員都是這樣子的版本就是把這個禁止採購陸資廠商或中港澳的資通服務系統跟設備這樣子的明文把它寫進法條裡面呢因為我們都知道說其實中國在這個資通訊產品裡面會他們是會埋設後門的而且是會把資料有可能回傳到中國的境內那甚至是有遠端操控的功能"},{"start":10733.661,"end":10756.729,"text":"那其實上週這個美國的聽證會裡面也特別強調中共現在針對這種網路的攻擊跟他們這種資通訊的這種網路戰的部分是非常強化的那我們更應該要審慎的來防範所以我覺得把它明確化是好事所以這邊是不是可以請教部長的意見有沒有可不可以直接把它入法呢請部長回應"},{"start":10758.183,"end":10783.061,"text":"好 等一下一起回應來 沈博洋委員好 我一次說就是說這一條其實溝通了也蠻久的其實是在在同胞部長那個時候一直到現在都在討論這一條那當時其實我們在討論的時候有兩個地方就是第一個就是等一下也可能是請事務發布說明一下第一個就是採購就是說因為我們採購法本來就有相關的一個規定但是就像我們如果說我們在宣誓性的假設我們就在這邊把"},{"start":10783.942,"end":10800.73,"text":"不得採購下載安裝採購下載採購這個放進去跟不放採購這個差別在哪裡可能請這個速發部等下說一下那另外一點就是說呢到底要不要把這一個中國這個境外敵對勢力實質控制這一個是要放在修法理由還是要放在"},{"start":10801.59,"end":10820.535,"text":"11條本身它的差別是在這裡就是說如果我們今天在11條把它直接入法的話這個宣示性很強因為它不是只有在針對職通它是直接認為說只要有這樣實質控制都不能夠使用如果是放在修法理由的話那就是變成這個院本這邊提的這些包含但不限於"},{"start":10821.075,"end":10847.828,"text":"我覺得包含但不限於這一個國安法或者反滲透法或所稱這些實質的控制那這個是請蘇化部再說明一下因為這其實也是溝通滿久的但我們想知道這一個最終的這個結論好謝謝好那我們請蘇化部說明就兩個部分報告就是我們就是資通安全法的角度是管實用下載就是它你怎麼買我們不在乎就是它有些政治市場網路上是免費的但是它不可以用就是不可以用"},{"start":10848.268,"end":10863.279,"text":"那採購的部分其實工程會他們已經在修他們的這個資訊傳統那邊有一整套的制度包括採購可不可以申訴可不可以調解那我們會建議說那讓採購公共工程主管機關來處理這個其實我們跟工程會談過非常多次他們也都OK這樣子"},{"start":10864.159,"end":10878.635,"text":"採購再放進來的話變成這個法跟採購法的效力到底是什麼會變得很亂所以我們會建議說我們就管實用下載這個安裝的部分那這個有關於這個要不要明訂說這個中國大陸地區或香港澳門等等那這個就誠如剛才這個申委員所說"},{"start":10881.138,"end":10905.55,"text":"我們跟幾位委員大家都報告過就是說因為這個是有其他法令的明定的那我們是不是可以就再說明說清楚那這個也很清楚這個大概政府已經政策宣示過很多次就包含但是不限於國安法及反送中法包括的中國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或所設立的實質控制的組織機構團體或人員這個其實在國家政策上面是非常明確的"},{"start":10909.918,"end":10934.409,"text":"因為我們第十一條第一項的部分當然因為所有驗版的前段我們都基本上沒有什麼意見也就跟我們抗華比較一致但是我們還是建議請次長部長這裡考慮一下就是我們希望把它增訂下去有些文字"},{"start":10935.049,"end":10957.41,"text":"看要刪減或增加也就是遵守下列規定一也應該指定特定區域及特定人員使用卻不得傳播影像或聲音供不特定的人士來收視或收聽這個是第一 這是第一也這是我們台灣民眾黨的版本"},{"start":10957.99,"end":10965.376,"text":"第二 過滯理由消失或者使用連線借滿應立即燒毀第三點 其他主管機關指定之事項這個在補足"},{"start":10974.943,"end":10993.497,"text":"你們在定定的沒有明確化的這些所以我們把它甄列這123項也就是充分授權主管機關指定各項的事項所以以上也請我們次長跟部長做一個參佐謝謝國軍委員"},{"start":10996.9,"end":11016.118,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我想針對這一條本席有部分跟李進黨想法我也想法是一樣好就是應該要更明確化那因為第一點我想我們都認同啦不能使用危害國家自動安全的產品但是危害國家自動安全的產品到底要如何認定"},{"start":11017.421,"end":11043.157,"text":"本法通過以後審查程序如何包含由誰來進行審查審查標準是什麼多久來進行一次截至目前為止呢本席的辦公室數次詢問治安署但治安署目前為止完全沒有辦法提出完整的配套措施那這又是一張空白授權而且呢治安署還在送立法院的版本當中在說明欄第三項增訂"},{"start":11044.418,"end":11064.424,"text":"本法所定的危害國家自通安全的產品包括但不限於反滲透法所稱滲透來源實質控制者所提供之產品這一條等於是超越了反滲透法的存在變成自通安全法變成了一個以治安為名超越反滲透法的存在是這樣嗎"},{"start":11065.504,"end":11084.103,"text":"尤其我想要請各位委員不管是哪一個政黨的注意一下這一個版本這一個條文在113年就2024年的7月4號行政院記者會會後提供這個資安法的草案給媒體參考的版本裡面並沒有相關的文字"},{"start":11084.804,"end":11107.153,"text":"但是同一天送到立法院审查的版本当中却偷渡了这团文字这一段文字在说明栏当中这代表什么呢代表这个版本在一天之内竟然有AB版给记者媒体的是A版没有这个超越反渗透法的条文给到立法院的版本竟然是有超越反渗透法"},{"start":11107.893,"end":11128.859,"text":"那這樣子到底是不是有什麼希望還是不希望大家看到呢那如果我們沒有看到這個超越反滲透法的存在是不是就這樣子沒有經過社會的討論跟媒體的報導就要通過了那當然我們也不想要過度去擔憂跟懷疑所以呢我們覺得這個偷渡會不會是個意外"},{"start":11129.719,"end":11150.715,"text":"那兩個版本為什麼有差異本席辦公室也一直在詢問速發部結果速發部到現在沒有給本席一個合理的說法那這樣子民間的疑慮就有其道理那如果這部自動安全管理法就這樣三讀通過本法限制的自動安全產品的來源將正式超越反滲透法"},{"start":11152.199,"end":11170.499,"text":"那這樣我們人民如何信賴啊那相關的審查程序風險評估以及使用限制等等通通空白的授權給主管機關來訂定這個我要再說一次違反法明確信原則速發部等同於成為資安產業界的太上皇"},{"start":11172.101,"end":11186.898,"text":"這個是一個帝王條款掌握所有廠商喔我要注意變成是誰覺得誰比如說現在有人說M開頭的社群平台裡面有受到誰控制雖然沒有一個明確的定義它可以被放進來"},{"start":11187.739,"end":11203.068,"text":"那它就是屬於這個資通安全危害產品我要請大家注意這條文裡面這個資通安全危害產品不是只限於看得到摸得到的聽得到的下載得了的網站都可能算是產品那這樣子有明確嗎第二點"},{"start":11204.215,"end":11206.438,"text":"這個就是我們剛剛講的AB版B版才有A版沒有那這個相關的規定政府可能要進行地方政府可能"},{"start":11219.215,"end":11243.84,"text":"要进行大规模的查核去确保所有自行委外运营场所提供这些相关的产品或服务有没有相关的这个状况甚至每次产品清单的更新因为你没有说你多久更新一次你有没有可能两个礼拜更新一次两个礼拜更新一次地方政府又再次清查我们有没有相关的人力我们有没有相关的人事跟业务的成本"},{"start":11244.64,"end":11267.956,"text":"本席有向台北市政府索取所謂自行及委外營運場所相關的資料我手上這一份光台北市有230個自行或委外營運的場館有台北小巨蛋有停車場有動物園這裡面有多少公佈螢幕和喇叭要清查一個木柵動物園有多少相關的這些細節老人照護"},{"start":11270.197,"end":11297.986,"text":"這個老人公寓老人養護中心親子場館這些全部會在這個修法範圍之內我們有沒有足夠的量能那剛剛為什麼我們第二條會很擔憂說主管機關直接設定為資安署資安署編制只有117個人那他們要怎麼去各縣市一一清查呢那不能中央修一個法這個成本全部由地方政府廠商來負擔所以我想這種做法"},{"start":11299.086,"end":11322.665,"text":"希望可以避免所以但我們理念在部分是一致的就是希望要保護國家安全不要有危害國家自動安全產品的做法但是應該要符合法明確性的原則那假設你真的要清查那你就要講清楚你多久更新一次清查的成本人力費用誰來負擔否則這樣我想這個可能也會讓地方政府感受到自愛難行謝謝"},{"start":11325.866,"end":11343.025,"text":"好謝謝黃建豪委員完了再來陳書業委員好謝謝張偉我想我對這條的一些想法跟大家表達一下因為就是在說明欄裡面講說包含但不限於反滲透法所稱的滲透來源實質控制者所提供的產品我想這個有點空白這是空白授權因為在後面你要講說要授權由"},{"start":11344.266,"end":11359.086,"text":"主管机关来定定办法好来符合这个明确性原则那里面有提到一些这个条件那我就应该反过来就说你先定出相关条件那我们再看这个法怎么使用嘛也不能说我先同意了你这件事情就是包含反渗透法"},{"start":11361.388,"end":11383.28,"text":"包含但不卸反射通法那其他的怎麼辦那如果沒有反射通法裡面的我也不知道我們現在訂制法之後你們未來會列哪些出來嗎那這樣對公務機關或對所謂的這個委外業者來講他會很大的困擾所以這部分是第一件事情那第二件事情是我們提的修正中裡面有特別提到這個因為你們提到說自行或委外營業場所提供公眾視聽或使用傳播設備把這個部分"},{"start":11385.121,"end":11411.214,"text":"實務上我覺得這也需要跟地方政府可能也可能要透過公聽會的方式來了解實務上面對會有什麼問題比如說我們馬上遇到的問題說地方政府有很多比如長照據點就是委外經營那長照據點裡面這些上課的老師他使用的這些產品是不是也算是列管的範圍裡面那還有公托公幼各場館運動中心等等的這些部分它裡面是不是都不能使用所謂的"},{"start":11411.894,"end":11435.323,"text":"包含淡不限於反制作法所訂的這個產品會不會有這個問題所以這個這個授權太廣大太廣了那我們也不確定到底你的這個到時候會哪些東西被列上去所以我會覺得應該反過來你先把東西先列出來你先正面表列出來然後再回來管制而不是我先授權說都給你去去處理了我覺得這個法的邏輯是應該反過來講才對以上謝謝好陳樹葉委員"},{"start":11442.062,"end":11445.445,"text":"我們說定位 其他人有意見嗎還是唱書呢"},{"start":11449.708,"end":11471.081,"text":"不好意思 就是針對這一條 我有一些想法想請教一下 當然就是說每個委員講的都很重要就是說 如果說把危害國家自動安全產品在法條裡面明確化的話是不是可以讓民眾比較清楚容易得知說哪些是法律規定會危害到國家治安的產品像剛剛很多委員是這個想看法"},{"start":11476.764,"end":11492.995,"text":"那如果說反過來我們去思考說如果沒有被列到的那是不是會有漏網之魚會不會有漏網之魚呢那這又該怎麼去處理因為剛剛葛文君委員在擔憂說這樣子是不是空白授權"},{"start":11493.735,"end":11516.06,"text":"那如果說明確化了那之後是不是會有漏網之魚那這要怎麼處理因為我們知道現在畢竟我們面對這個中共的一個滲透是非常的嚴重那我們要怎樣在未來這個資訊尤其是人工智慧越來越發達的這種狀況下我們要怎樣去讓我們的這個資安更安全能夠抵禦這樣子的一個滲透謝謝好 那聖伯陽委員換那個魯冰哲委員"},{"start":11524.156,"end":11543.618,"text":"不好意思第二次發言那這個我覺得這邊可能有大家討論的時候可能有點誤會就是說呢今天我們在講這個危害自動安全這個概念本來就很廣所以沒有什麼超越什麼反射到不超越的問題在今天說什麼包含但不限於的意思是說今天所謂的危害自動安全產品範圍很大"},{"start":11545.04,"end":11566.048,"text":"但不只是有跟反送中法這些有關的所以比如說我舉個例子假設今天這個資安上本來就有疑慮比如說它有後門它有漏洞那這是危害自動安全的產品那如果說今天是一個解放軍下轄的團體它所製造的一個軟體這本來就對我們來講即使它安全無虞我們可能都沒有辦法使用了"},{"start":11566.568,"end":11585.374,"text":"因為對我們來講這個你一旦使用下去了那就已經直接造成了一個國安的危機所以這就是為什麼在修法裡他必須去講說他要告訴你說危害國家自動安全的產品除了本來的資安疑慮之外還包含了這些被黨政軍實質控制所製造出來的這個我們不能夠使用"},{"start":11585.914,"end":11603.559,"text":"那只是說到底要把它放在修法理由還是要把它放在這一邊所以如果你不把這個定進去反而是更不明確嘛因為你危害自動安全產品它本來就是一個很廣義的概念那你今天在裡面有一部分你把它明確化剛剛我看到那麼多委員一直這樣強調明確那其實你把這一個所謂的黨政軍實質控制"},{"start":11605.279,"end":11634.137,"text":"的組織等等之類所提供的產品把它放進去這不就是一個很明確的事項嗎所以它不但不是說它不但第一個它是明確第二個它沒有超越的問題啊因為它是把這個危害自動安全產品那麼大的範圍裡面有其中一小塊很明確的告訴你是什麼那其他的話它還是要專業認定嘛所以這樣的一個立法方式就是是要放在哪一個我沒有意見我只是要講說到底今天我們放在哪邊的差別它的宣示意義的強弱的一個差別而已齁"},{"start":11634.597,"end":11637.888,"text":"所以這邊可能剛剛在討論的時候我看好像聽起來是有點誤會好我們請左邊政務員"},{"start":11645.8,"end":11664.701,"text":"來 謝謝主席針對這一條我個人的意見是其實採購法在公務單位很多人規定不能採購的自動產品早就有規定那對一般的公務機關他買都不能買了那當然你們現在考慮不光是實體的物品包括了一些service那我覺得這個部分"},{"start":11666.002,"end":11681.25,"text":"到底有沒有跟地方政府因為你的公務機關是不光是中央所有地方政府裡面你們包括了剛剛第三條很多的疑慮也是到底你納管的範圍到底要多寬現在看起來這一條有特別寫到不光是公務機關"},{"start":11682.891,"end":11700.879,"text":"還包括了它所有的一個委外的一個場域場館所提供的相關一些傳播設施公共的一個視聽等等的那這個東西要講清楚因為現在我們公共的場域有好幾種經營的模式有一種是蓋好OT給別人我根本什麼都不提供"},{"start":11701.599,"end":11727.359,"text":"然後那OT的成本到底是人家要用什麼樣的一些東西那現在要誰去檢查你要地方政府去檢查那也沒問題但是你要公聽會跟人家溝通一下包括了各個地方政府有多少向的委外的一個場館不同的模式有時候還不是OT的模式是純粹服務的部分請人家服務來帶一些這個不管是銀髮族人家也買了一些設備"},{"start":11728.9,"end":11742.969,"text":"所以這個的部分範圍到底要多廣這個部分我建議是要跟相關的一些可能受影響的地方政府做一個公聽會或者溝通最後我也是建議"},{"start":11744.23,"end":11759.86,"text":"明確一點 危害國家自通安全產品當然除了我們採購法規定了之外我們還是希望你要能夠正面表列不然這些地方政府他們都不是自通專家哪些不能用你現在又扯到可能委外的一些機構"},{"start":11761.241,"end":11786.516,"text":"你不能說他根本不知道啊那你我又問了幾次啊那我們說也不多說不方便公告我的天啊你要求一些單位來遵照遵照一些你不方便公告的這些具象的或者軟體的一個產品然後你讓人家假設買了然後營運了讓人家停工或者拆掉我就覺得這個是法令我們支持啊可是你這樣不明確我是覺得是還要繼續討論以上"},{"start":11791,"end":11819.959,"text":"什麼樣委員我快速的follow那個剛剛盧委員的問題就是說現在這個公告有很多種啦就是說是對外公告還是說對於這一個有可能必須要遵守的公告所以可能這一個部分可能書法部說明一下就是說我的理解是可能是沒有對外但是對於要遵守的可能有有他們是需要是得知的不然他因為他需要遵守所以這可能等一下也可能是書法部一併回答好謝謝意見分歧請那個書法部回答"},{"start":11822.155,"end":11847.941,"text":"我先說明那如果不足的話我再補充第一件事情就是說有關於它是包括說為什麼是包括不限於這個反生動法的規定那原因就在於說這個沈委員說的很好自動安全產品危害國家自動安全有兩種一種是被這個中國大陸或是港澳控制的因為他按照國家法令他就可以看裡面的資料那這個是明顯就會有發生一些這個自動安全的系統性的風險"},{"start":11848.641,"end":11851.432,"text":"另外有一些自動安全產品他即便是"},{"start":11852.54,"end":11878.765,"text":"我們要講最極端的即便是美國或台灣做他如果做得很爛裡面有很多木馬城市這個不會是他公司是誰控制的問題而這個產品根本就不該用那所以我們說包括這個不限於其實就如剛才沈委員所講是從自動安全去考量他如果控制上造成系統性風險我們也不允許這個產品如果很爛那這個我們也不能用那他就不見得是中國做的"},{"start":11879.025,"end":11907.704,"text":"他即便是台灣做的大概我們也不能夠容許所以第一點做報告那第二個就是說這個到底怎麼認定的問題那其實當然有關於自動安全的審查程序風險評估其實非常這我們在辦法會在辦法裡面明定那剛才沈委員提到一個很重要的問題就是說那大家怎麼怎麼知道其實這個機制其實我們已經建立蠻多年從108年開始初步開始建立到現在那我們不公告的一個基本上的原因就是你只要公告把這個"},{"start":11909.205,"end":11928.583,"text":"五項 那他就逃避嘛 他就稀產地就好 他就貼牌就好那其實是公告不夠 因為自動安全其實是一個動態的狀態啦 就是說但是我們會不會讓公務機關無所適用 其實是不會的因為我們是有 將來會有個情資分享機制 需要使用的人他問 他就會得到答案那另外一件事情就是說 啊如果你你這個 這個"},{"start":11930.845,"end":11954.425,"text":"到底不知道要用什麼不知道要買什麼其實我們本部其實另外設立一個機制就是有所謂資訊產品的共同採購契約共同採購契約上面都是我們資安檢查過的那其實大多數的如果資安能力沒有非常特殊要求的其實就買共同契約上面就好按照採購法規定他共同契約他價格都訂好了他也不用招標他直接買就OK了"},{"start":11954.665,"end":11982.175,"text":"那那個部分如果有資安疑慮我們馬上就從那上面下架那如果上面沒有的按照我們現在的行政制度只要有兩個機關提出需求我們就會去找廠商這其實對本部是支持這個資安這個產業來講也很重要因為我們就可以發展我們台灣的這個資安產業所以這個其實並沒有說對於會造成公務機關或地方政府困擾那第三個特別說明的就是說所謂委外這個場所我們有特定限制在"},{"start":11982.615,"end":11999.734,"text":"公眾視聽的場域之下意思說要關起門來的這個或者是這個老師上課這並不是公眾視聽的情形那這個我們當然會跟地方政府溝通其實我們從113年開始就治安法令大概每定期都會許行委譬如我們在高雄已經辦過了大概三場"},{"start":12000.475,"end":12026.736,"text":"在台東也辦過台中也辦過那這個法通過之後我們還會持續的跟地方政府來溝通那我們其實我們大家也都是公務員我們並不想造成說中央或地方各機關的公務同仁這個沒辦法這個無所適從或是他工作上的負擔所以這個法令就我們現在行政院版其實是經過多方溝通也包括各中央目的市就大家都覺得是可行的我們才會這樣定以上報告"},{"start":12031.499,"end":12033.866,"text":"麥克風大家大家其他人能聽得到"},{"start":12037.372,"end":12065.382,"text":"主席我建議這樣啦因為我還是希望沒有爭議的話讓他去通過可是這一台從頭審到現在我認為11條有關這個規定的認知確實是差異很大所以我建議怎麼解釋現在有些也聽不進去那確確實實有必要有老百姓的民意的聲音所以我建議這個是真正先把它保留"},{"start":12065.982,"end":12082.674,"text":"因為不可能全部的法令我建議就是先保留在沒有爭議的讓他去過我建議這樣可能整個法令他會不會比較完善一點好不好暫時保留我聽起來這一條沒有什麼爭議剛剛這樣聽起來爭議沒有很大吧"},{"start":12089.203,"end":12105.833,"text":"除了這一個剛剛葛委員提到的有沒有再需要這一個比較細緻的然後還有這個院版修正有一個使用業務上需求的例外然後還有到底要放修法理由還是不要放修法理由不就是這樣子而已嗎這聽起來好像沒有那麼大的歧義吧應該是可以討論的"},{"start":12107.234,"end":12132.403,"text":"好 文豐政委員好 謝謝主席那我還是剛剛我剛剛談的問題我想再去了解因為剛剛特別說跟地方政府都辦了一個說明會也不會造成地方政府的困擾這我可以理解啦因為採購法就已經規定這麼久了嘛就不能買他買都不能買他還用什麼他們基本上都有這種觀念但是你剛剛講是這條法定在一定營運委外委外營運的場館我們講說"},{"start":12133.823,"end":12162.52,"text":"火車站好了火車站的場域然後他委託微風廣場經營他是完全不管你這個區塊給你啊你從櫃子電視什麼的你要東西你自己去弄啊那什麼意思就是說我要找這些公司的時候這些民間企業或社團的時候那他怎麼知道哪一個品牌可不可以買那請問一下你有通知他嗎剛剛講說私下公告那你也公告給這些管理單位嗎另外一些有些國民運動中心好了也是空的場域啊"},{"start":12163.16,"end":12180.133,"text":"就給你運動器材你買那運動器材現在很多都帶電視的那是不是他到底要買什麼廠牌的什麼不能買不能說我整個買了50台你說抱歉這不能用所以我的意思就是說你們現在的規定不是不行但是你們對於已經"},{"start":12181.474,"end":12196.112,"text":"已經要約束到他下來送民間委外的一些單位的時候你能不能把這些公告很明確的讓這些單位也知道甚至在他來招標之前他就覺得要不要因為這都是成本喔"},{"start":12196.773,"end":12221.4,"text":"因為這個治安本來就對企業他就一個成本我需要high quality的我要美國製的我要台灣製的那本身就是一個成本那我的意思就是說在委外的場館裡面發生他必須全部負責他所有的設備的時候他要遵循什麼樣的法例對一個民間的廠商這裡面我並沒有看清楚很清楚可以依循的部分"},{"start":12225.131,"end":12230.678,"text":"好這樣子先保留啦好12條163"},{"start":12247.458,"end":12271.358,"text":"現在進行到第12條12條是有關於資安長的資格以及相關他實質的一個能力長期以來我看我們各公務機關的資安長其實大半都是由機關的正副首長來兼任"},{"start":12272.386,"end":12283.111,"text":"但是你看這些政府首長兼任資安長他們其實都是缺乏專業的這種資安的專業知識導致資安的督導責任其實我認為是無法實質的落實"},{"start":12291.158,"end":12306.569,"text":"我認為這好像變成有名無死的這種狀況啊這個外界都多所批評那但是啊我們數位部其實也要來了解目前這種資安長的掛名字啊其實啊這個問題啊"},{"start":12309.454,"end":12335.296,"text":"我們要去解決 要解決這種資安長掛名字的這種問題才能有效的去推動資安政策的落實但是目前這種兼任方式能否日益能否對應日益嚴峻的這種資安的威脅其實如果未來維持這種兼任的制度是如果要透過資安署"},{"start":12336.571,"end":12362.716,"text":"資安署要提交資安署如何透過強力的專業資源能夠去協助這些資安長能夠提升專業的能力不然這種資安長的掛名字有辦法去落實資安嗎以上好那個行政單位好謝謝他們沒什麼意見沒有意見就不要講太多了"},{"start":12367.031,"end":12370.435,"text":"說明來我們補充對啦 對啦那如果這樣從早到晚就應該秉持這樣的一個會議原則啊我請他們簡單說明 而且我問的也那麼簡短也請他們簡短說明這樣都勾到整片天對啦 那崑禎委員我講一下"},{"start":12388.797,"end":12411.162,"text":"好 謝謝李委員的這個意見那我們會在說明欄這邊因為其實我們平常對這些資安長副首長都有做一些教育訓練的工作包括我們也舉辦一些像資安長的共事營等等的那他們經過這些的教育訓練其實可以強化他們在資安方面的專業的能力所以這個平時都有在配合相關的教育訓練的課程在推動 以上說明 謝謝好 觀眾可以OK"},{"start":12416.178,"end":12426.628,"text":"好 那12條就通過照那個 照行政院版通過 這樣OK齁好 13條你沒意見 都沒意見 沒想像沒意見 這樣13條 照行政院提案通過14條"},{"start":12444.528,"end":12449.974,"text":"14條大家有意見嗎?如果沒有意見,14條就照行政院提案通過15條"},{"start":12456.762,"end":12471.408,"text":"你對過條就剛剛14條啦因為一樣有後面有治安署是治安署其實確實有一點怪怪的啦因為包括沒有上級單位包括總統府啊然後很多那種"},{"start":12472.728,"end":12493.944,"text":"最高單位都要跟資安署最後來報備所以我在想雖然是倒回去去討論應該是第二條的一個定義的這個部分大家的疑慮是說這中間整個一個相關的法規剛剛也看到了其實除了資安署的業務跟業界跟我們產業署的業務都有你知道嗎"},{"start":12494.384,"end":12508.895,"text":"都有跟民間的產業怎麼樣去投入納入他們的一個經驗這又不是純資安署的那再來是相關的你們管全國包括中央單位地方單位你有時候真的叫署去協調"},{"start":12510.316,"end":12535.389,"text":"那可能簽公文還是要給你啊那這種是不是我會覺得待會可以一併去討論啦這個會不會在整個部會的一個協調溝通的這個部分你全丟給一個二級的資安署會不會好那這個部分是不是一併保留啊因為有資安署的問題好來14條跟第2條的源頭一樣後面這類似這樣就先保留啦就這個溝通好就溝通好了好來15條"},{"start":12538.331,"end":12542.937,"text":"我們看內政部的相關資料全國368個鄉鎮公所當中其實有超過三分之一是沒有專任的資訊人員"},{"start":12555.811,"end":12564.436,"text":"在原鄉地區這種情形是更嚴重那我們這種資安資通安全維護計畫的這種專任的資訊人員不足這其實是一個問題請你們簡單說明一下請行政部門回答"},{"start":12572.225,"end":12600.033,"text":"是 我想謝謝李分責委員剛剛的這個關心那原鄉這部分的確是所以不過所以我們才會說盡量把一些相關公所的東西向上集中到縣政府那邊去那這樣由縣政府來做這些治安管理的工作這樣子可以減輕原鄉一些人力不足的地方因為事實上你說要在一個比較偏僻的原鄉要設置一位專職的專職的治安人員其實不太容易雖然我們給他這樣的一個要求可是他要達成不容易以上"},{"start":12602.113,"end":12625.692,"text":"好 這樣回答OK嗎好 那如果沒有意見我們16條就照行政院15條就照行政院提案通過好 那現在16條大家有沒有意見沒有意見就照行政院提案通過17條大家有沒有意見"},{"start":12631.86,"end":12650.353,"text":"第幾條16條16條有主管機關的問題所以16條跟第二條問題一樣那就先保留暫時保留OK好那再來17條大家有沒有意見"},{"start":12651.954,"end":12677.411,"text":"沒有意見就照行政院提案通過好18條18條有一個修正動議就是那個黃建豪等修正動議請那個宣讀修正動議是提案人委員黃建豪葛如君等第18條對照行政院提案"},{"start":12679.454,"end":12692.859,"text":"在第一項在第一項的部分中斷應變處理的後面徵定並得鼓勵所屬人員參與直通安全教育訓練莫具應與獎勵修正為公務機關應與以獎勵宣布完畢主席"},{"start":12717.493,"end":12738.299,"text":"18條有沒有意見我只是補充一下我想這個感恩主席那個18條的修正動議我想之前已經有跟數位部有溝通應該有共識那我這條數位部應該沒有意見應該沒有反對意見啦18條的修正動議就是鼓勵所屬人員參與自動安全教育訓練而已還有沈伯陽委員"},{"start":12742.093,"end":12758.209,"text":"我覺得獎勵這個方向很好另外就是說我在這一個我的版本裡面有提到這個績效平和剛剛又有跟世華溝通過因為在第五條的時候其實也有把績效放進去那我覺得反正這個還是在辦法裡面訂定不代表馬上就要實行但我覺得"},{"start":12758.769,"end":12785.42,"text":"有一定程度的這個績效平和對於之後在這一個管考還有在做這一個指揮監督的時候我覺得可能會比較有效果啦所以我是建議能不能夠把這一個績效平和這四個字把它拉回來拉回來到最後一項那邊好 剛才那個先回應森委員的18條的部分大概這個修正版本我們也接受森委員說要加平和兩個字我們也接受"},{"start":12787.739,"end":12811.536,"text":"我們來打一下齁就是績效平衡 優良好 加那個 加平衡績效平衡 績效平衡 對就是差距不是很大啦有一些就是被人說要到貨裡面去再下來這樣就偏程距了對"},{"start":12814.284,"end":12827.173,"text":"好,18條改這樣子,大家OK嗎?好,OK齁好,那18條就照還有治安署"},{"start":12838.189,"end":12854.362,"text":"對啦如果是數位部跟剛才就從第二條開始吧第二條開始就是他們在講的就是數位部跟資安署如果這樣子大家可以接受的話那剛才保留的就全部都可以通過啦那就這樣子"},{"start":12858.841,"end":12883.506,"text":"那個市長市長不是啦市長我說實在啦大家餘力的當然知安時也是附屬在數位部嘛所以這個華本來主管居然是你們嘛所以你用一個三級機關二級機關去跟一級機關來談這個事情大家餘力的是這個那如果是這樣把數位部放進去"},{"start":12884.724,"end":12903.522,"text":"那他還是下屬你的機關你們要怎麼樣去協調是數位部才跟一級機關你們是一級機關協調一級機關所以我建議啦私底下你們考慮一下在整個華的部分是不是把數位部放進去那這個問題就解決啊不是這樣嗎"},{"start":12909.901,"end":12920.758,"text":"我們休息五分鐘讓他們想一下如果可以的話就從第二條保留到後面就全部都解決好不好王燕先休息五分鐘"},{"start":12923.723,"end":12930.606,"text":"我們按照專利法寫法就是本法主管機關為數位發展部可以指定專責機關來辦理然後後面的所有資安署都改成主管機關"},{"start":12957.279,"end":12958.499,"text":"大家考慮一下"},{"start":12970.144,"end":12990.954,"text":"蘇發部剛才有大致上主管機關 後面的都誰主管機關啊我們再多加一句話就是主管機關可以指定專責單位來好啦 它這跟專責機關 跟這個民法的關係對啦 主管機關是蘇衛部啊對啦對啦 後面的就是主管這樣啦後面自然署都誰主管這樣在兩點半再來啦"},{"start":12999.696,"end":13014.901,"text":"被由那個諸葛部長指定專責機關辦理當初等一下一幕秀出來就好因為治安局這三個是保留的靠進去 歐洲歐克巴全都改成主管機關就從第一條到最後一條我第三條要保留一下"},{"start":13026.405,"end":13034.734,"text":"你不可能今天一事就結束 一定有第二輪 讓他保留幾天時間因為大家你可以看得出來 兩黨也都是在幫你維持法律"},{"start":13042.762,"end":13060.814,"text":"這問題大家講的不是沒有理由於主管機關明定又設計數位比例到最後執行機關你又把它放在那裡三級機關就是一級機關你那一定會那個起碼的數位比例是一級機關本來這是你們的下場那為什麼要解決這個我們就按照專利法 企業法 什麼的這樣後面都設計主管機關的話主管機關都是數位發展部"},{"start":13072.942,"end":13081.112,"text":"對啦 他是彭華存款機關資金經濟公安的數位發展部我們可以資金存款的機關來辦業務對啦 就代表那些都是你們數位部做的嘛因為他也是你們的二級啦那你為什麼要去"},{"start":13088.78,"end":13106.195,"text":"特別去民進這個當時說自己是這樣齁 因為其實我這樣子教育比較好不是啊 你在行文 跟部長在行文那兩者一般像內政部 欸內政部我跟你同等啊為什麼我要請你出來我們也可以戴戴上這個好"},{"start":13115.464,"end":13117.826,"text":"我們還要再瞭解一下我們才過"},{"start":13130.6,"end":13135.963,"text":"我們再瞭解一下我們瞭解一下 因為細節我們現在市長都在這邊他要去問一下業務單位才知道這樣子我們先瞭解"},{"start":13157.274,"end":13161.016,"text":"沒有這世界我們有通報機還不了解這個狀況"},{"start":13184.345,"end":13191.75,"text":"因為早上沒有通報然後到底是媒體的報導是怎麼樣也不清楚所以先不用去"},{"start":13214.016,"end":13214.577,"text":"再看一下"},{"start":13239.957,"end":13244.299,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":13268.617,"end":13268.877,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":13276.398,"end":13297.41,"text":"我們現在第二項就修成國家資通安全業務之執行由第二項郵出發展部指定專責機關辦那下面只要是資安許可條文我們就修成資安專責機關這樣好了不要還是主管機關就主管機關然後之後就不要下面就一律主管機關"},{"start":13299.691,"end":13302.552,"text":"那就是一個自電程式我看一下"},{"start":13326.522,"end":13326.542,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":13359.002,"end":13359.122,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13359.542,"end":13360.863,"text":"因為它越來越快"},{"start":13382.554,"end":13390.338,"text":"我跟你講齁我們驗版的 來 次長來 我跟你講我們驗版的 我們房地產有些事情我們驗版的就是 聽你們說我們是500萬"},{"start":13410.469,"end":13435.582,"text":"我們希望能夠成為一千萬人的祖先。祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,�"},{"start":13442.266,"end":13442.566,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":13460.956,"end":13467.741,"text":"不是,我一直當委員,為什麼要聽你那個笑口會被打"},{"start":13483.132,"end":13486.073,"text":"其實我們學問也是要附裡面的代判內容"},{"start":13508.439,"end":13509.981,"text":"那個在溝通,因為他在擋船,大概還是要擋船"},{"start":13525.9,"end":13531.041,"text":"現在不是林國慈的問題,是他黨黨的問題我們在跟那個黨在溝通"},{"start":13560.432,"end":13566.494,"text":"因為我們有去溝通啦,他就說啊,他們沒有"},{"start":13595.407,"end":13612.341,"text":"副總,下午那個部會議我跟卓志志參加,院長有一個那個有關於美國家產品,那個低性殼的那個會議那個是專案小組會議,那個延期了但是那個下午是要跟院長報告這是跟林政委"},{"start":13613.401,"end":13616.684,"text":"當年政府在那個國安會的小組裡面三點"},{"start":13636.315,"end":13636.335,"text":"院長"},{"start":13671.753,"end":13689.98,"text":"這個27條,因為正中心就是女人的身體裡面,前面的後面的就是後面這些啊,就是前面的原件,是中心、後面的,或是前面的"},{"start":13692.117,"end":13704.969,"text":"剩下剩餘的規則,你看它是湯的樣子所以現在製作版就有錢了我們將來做到一半了,我們就過去了"},{"start":13718.985,"end":13748.985,"text":"對對對"},{"start":13756.511,"end":13763.437,"text":"其實我看起來是C27國民黨好像沒有特別特別有"},{"start":13776.844,"end":13778.105,"text":"其實現在已經在執行了"},{"start":13796.403,"end":13800.165,"text":"大家不了解,因為特定救災救難難以使用"},{"start":13822.739,"end":13823.341,"text":"我來看看"},{"start":13856.223,"end":13859.633,"text":"你家里可以照顾到他"},{"start":14680.393,"end":14702.504,"text":"好來現在開始開會剛才那個蘇發部有跟國民黨民眾黨團溝通過了那我們再繞回來第二條第二條如果處理好了後面就很多都可以OK第二條第幾頁第五頁"},{"start":14707.611,"end":14726.028,"text":"第二條第五頁然後改主管機關為數位發展部自通安全業務之執行由數位發展部指定資安專責機關辦理這樣第二條就改這樣OK嗎"},{"start":14733.038,"end":14761.495,"text":"好 沒意見 好那第二條就照行政院提案通過提案修正通過那第三條還是保留嗎第三條還是保留然後後面四五六七四到九四到九本來有過了嘛那四到九就交往來都有通過再來第十四到九不是都過了嗎"},{"start":14764.017,"end":14788.132,"text":"第四到第九有治安署的通通過了嘛要一條一條這樣第七就是改作主管機關嘛好那第七條改作主管機關所以就照行政院提案修正通過再來第八條"},{"start":14789.736,"end":14806.176,"text":"也改主管機關然後照行政院提案修正通過那第九條也改主管機關照行政院提案修正通過所以就剩下 再來前面都通過了 再來就剩下第十條"},{"start":14808.038,"end":14834.271,"text":"第10條保留那個行政機關部門都OK了就第10條保留那第11條也是保留就是剛才有提到那個還是保留那再來23本來就過了吧再來14條資安署那邊改成主管機關所以14條就照行政院提案修正通過"},{"start":14835.885,"end":14847.372,"text":"那再來16條也是改成修正機關照行政院提案修正通過再來再回到1717也是一樣處理過了回到18那18大家有沒有意見"},{"start":14864.878,"end":14889.315,"text":"也是一樣資安署改成儲管機關那就照行政院提案修正通過過來1919有修正動議19好像說那個撤掉了 撤了吧19是有修正動議好像有撤了喔不予增訂"},{"start":14895.229,"end":14896.95,"text":"19 宣讀一下修正動議6提案人委員邱若驊等系針對委員邱若驊等提案第19條予以刪除一併宣讀第21條也是一併刪除"},{"start":14921.578,"end":14939.235,"text":"他修他自己的版本而已啦跟我們無關啦那我們還是保留他們自己的條文刪掉啦不是我們的啦那我們還是造型正案版本啦"},{"start":14949.052,"end":14955.505,"text":"張銘 第三張張銘就照行政院原來的張銘那張銘是什麼"},{"start":14959.129,"end":14979.967,"text":"維持現狀,所以張明那邊不予採納好所以19條,他要收他自己的所以19條就是照行政院版本通過好,那第三張張明就照行政院提案通過再來20條"},{"start":14983.655,"end":14991.507,"text":"再來20條20條大家有沒有什麼意見20條沒有意見就照行政院"},{"start":14994.097,"end":15020.059,"text":"這樣第20條有關鍵基礎設施特定的這個部分不是第3條這個部分還沒有確認那這個部分萬一名字改了或怎麼樣有沒有關係呢關鍵基礎設施 因為第3條現在還不確定啊因為剛剛有些討論如果你們按照 第3條是後面的沒有確定範圍沒有確定嘛對 如果按照你們原來的版本剛剛你們同意的就沒有特定兩個字 特定拿掉還是先拿掉啦"},{"start":15031.681,"end":15045.949,"text":"我們就第3條的第一款到第9款我們就維持原來行政院的版本 現行規定就我們沒有變動所以原來有一些像特定關鍵機構設施就特定就拿掉"},{"start":15052.012,"end":15075.514,"text":"對對對就是20條裡面的一些對我說明一下就是20條這個地方我們有原文是中央目的世界主管機關應與徵詢相關公務機關民間團體專家學者意見後那個指定兩個字就拿指定特定特定那個拿掉指定關鍵基礎設施提供者送由主管機關報請請見核定並書面通知送送核定者"},{"start":15078.632,"end":15091.418,"text":"就是20條有特定關鍵基礎設施的特定拿掉啦這樣沒錯對啦,就是有特定的就拿掉啦那個沒問題,說話不會沒問題啦對啦,就是資安署"},{"start":15101.501,"end":15120.087,"text":"一起講 資安署改成主管機關然後特定關鍵基礎設施 特定拿掉就是關鍵基礎設施那前面的有很多 前面後面有很多就類似這樣子的問題現在全部都解決了 都一樣吧好 現在第20條"},{"start":15126.247,"end":15146.711,"text":"第20條那個特定是20條嘛所以就照行政20條看前面的螢幕就是特定的都拿掉吧這樣OK啦好那就照行政院提案修正通過20條那再來21條"},{"start":15157.273,"end":15160.939,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":15163.694,"end":15190.853,"text":"因為你們21條21條你有一個修正修正條文叫設置自通安全專職人員吧啊這個設置自通安全專職人員的條件你放在19條就說你們要得對所屬自通安全專職人員之適任性進行查核啊那個你們可以用留個紀錄好吧你那個怎麼查核你們要怎麼去找到所謂的自通安全專職人員那他的查核要經過什麼樣的流程誰來查核嗯"},{"start":15194.84,"end":15208.938,"text":"謝謝委員的那個提問我想就是這個查核部分其實我們是FARO這個公務人員服務法第四條裡面的這種特殊查核在做查核那一般的查核我們都會送給調查局做相關的這個特殊的這個查核這個是既有這個程序以上"},{"start":15211.291,"end":15218.036,"text":"所以就是20條剛才有提過現在在螢幕上面嘛就是特定就拿掉啦"},{"start":15237.708,"end":15263.965,"text":"好這是20條所以20條就照行政院提案修正通過好那21條剛剛有署長有報告過了嘛那21條大家如果沒有意見的話就特定拿掉特定拿掉所以特定拿掉所以OK好那就照行政院提案修正通過"},{"start":15265.902,"end":15292.729,"text":"那再來21條那再來22條資安署的就剛才講的就是全部都把它改成主管機關就資安署改成主管機關就是第二條大家的問題有資安署的現在就改成通通把它改成資安機關啦"},{"start":15293.82,"end":15316.832,"text":"那有特定的就把特定拿掉總統留下關鍵基礎設施其他的都跟原來的一樣那就是剛才從早上到現在大家有不一樣的意見的這些就已經統整了那就照這樣子都通過啦好那21條有修正動議那麻煩唸一下唸過了 宣讀過了"},{"start":15328.848,"end":15339.572,"text":"邱若驊修正動議是根據他修正他自己的提案跟我們行政院版本我們這次討論的文沒有關係他是修正自己的提案所以這個就通過"},{"start":15341.172,"end":15359.96,"text":"好 那再來21條就這樣子大家沒有意見我們就對 就是照行政院提案修正後通過好 那22條大家沒意見沒有的話也是一樣照行政院提案通過"},{"start":15361.502,"end":15375.31,"text":"那再來2323條就還是沒意見照行政院提案通過再來24條沒意見有修正動議24條有修正動議麻煩宣讀"},{"start":15404.139,"end":15427.552,"text":"24條宣讀一下修正動議五提案人委員黃建豪葛如君等第24條對照行政院提案在最後一項安全事件時的後面得提供相關協助修正為應提供必要之協助宣讀完畢"},{"start":15428.988,"end":15442.031,"text":"好那現在OK好那24條就照委員黃建豪等人所提修正東西通過好25條大家有沒有意見"},{"start":15444.71,"end":15457.578,"text":"二十五條二十五條不是說說好了嗎二十五條沒有二十五條保留啦來來二十五條這個主席抱歉二十五條我想這樣啦這個一般我們這樣看下來覺得很像2017年版本18條的那個"},{"start":15466.883,"end":15481.176,"text":"再写一遍而已只是当然条件要更多而已但他的精神好像就是2017年那个18条的版本哦不然说其实我讲真的你那个123前面就是25条123这部分OK但是后面有一个受调查者"},{"start":15482.402,"end":15505.73,"text":"那個受調查者是誰就是所有相關人都算受調查者嗎他不得拒絕所以等於授權了你們這個法律過後就授權你們去任何地方去進行相關調查所以我覺得這個是這個授權的比例有點有點範圍比較廣一點所以這部分我覺得是不是先保留讓大家再思考一下那個說不"},{"start":15507.074,"end":15530.009,"text":"如果把它特定下來好不好比如我們其實在第一項都是當事人跟關係人我們就把受調的人改成當事人或關係人這樣就不會太多就不會誤解所以第一項就是當事人或關係人我們只會查當事人跟關係人而已這樣就可以不用保留了"},{"start":15531.972,"end":15547.16,"text":"有範圍嗎 有線索範圍就把受調查者改為這個當事人或關係人當事人關係人前面都有定義的他多少有溝通軌啊25條"},{"start":15563.993,"end":15564.757,"text":"馬騙 馬騙來 能夠看那個"},{"start":15576.997,"end":15603.168,"text":"因為我想這個涉及到調查調查對象被調查對象這個跟就我覺得開空另外收集各界意見再來把它的這個範圍明確比較好一點好不好我覺得這樣子收集大家意見比較完整不要說今天我們三言兩語說好那我們把它改成什麼這個當事人跟關係人就好了當事人跟關係人就是說它有限縮範圍嘛我知道這個定義還是要把它明確一點"},{"start":15613.454,"end":15613.899,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":15625.495,"end":15626.476,"text":"現在前面的開宗明義是針對調查特定的非公務機關他基本上看起來是一個法人"},{"start":15645.908,"end":15673.904,"text":"那你大概後面寫的是當事人跟關係人啦有可能是法人有可能是自然人這樣我們看起來是這樣就是這個機關你們要不要說一下好吧就是說是這個因為你要調查一個機關肯定是要機關代表人喔真的喔你不能是隨便去找一個機關誰出來去講那到底這個是法人那當然關係人是個人是怎樣你們隨便找嗎還是那個狀況到底是怎麼樣可不可以說明一下謝謝說法不好"},{"start":15675.245,"end":15704.131,"text":"我們舉具體的例子特定非公務機關那指的是我們現在以關鍵基礎設施來看比如說它是這個能源的部分譬如說台電公司所謂的當事人就是台電公司那關係我們在第二項有明定說關係人以辦理特定公務機關委託辦理資訊系統建置維護或資訊服務的受託者而且要與重大的資訊安全觀有相關的譬如說台電那個系統他是請這個某某資安公司資訊公司做的"},{"start":15705.271,"end":15718.416,"text":"那這個系統是他來尾運的那這個調查對象只限於他而且是要跟這個資安事件要有關的才能夠調查所以這個其實在第二項裡面關係也不是隨便任何人都可以找就是當事人一定是"},{"start":15720.796,"end":15737.783,"text":"一定是那個資安事件的當事人是台電就台電是中華電信就中華電信對 本身法人那法人他當然可以派他的資訊人員來那關係人一定要跟這個而且他是受到台電或中華電信委託然後辦理這個資訊系統發生資安事件那我們當然要把他找來問這樣"},{"start":15740.715,"end":15750.459,"text":"其實我們委員會的角度當然就是說 大家如果看到有道理可以過就一年後過 總之如果沒有辦法可以保留 協商的大家要保留"},{"start":15766.058,"end":15780.43,"text":"好吧,這樣就先保留他們的建築,他們的建築我們先保留啦好,好,剛才是25好,再來26,大家有沒有什麼意見好,沒有意見就照行政院提案通過27條"},{"start":15787.779,"end":15810.953,"text":"我們本黨本來還是想說把它針對這些硬質定級特殊人員使用時間一到就是要理由消滅以後要這個剛剛署長已經有解釋了在整個你們的辦法裡面已經有明定所以我這個問題就是把它列在會議紀錄裡面會議紀錄裡面也就相當有執行就好"},{"start":15816.936,"end":15840.692,"text":"好 那27條行政院沒問題那就照這樣 那就列其他的那個民國村委員講的就列到後面嘛好 那這一條就照行政院提案通過那之前在25條那邊有一個羅美玲等委員的提案那一條我們行政院沒有對案那個就不予採納OK過來"},{"start":15850.066,"end":15861.171,"text":"好,這是最後嘛好,那28大家有沒有什麼意見沒有意見就照行政院提案通過再來29案"},{"start":15866.321,"end":15888.306,"text":"本黨團在華澤部分我們是本來是我們他這裡是500萬最高500萬我們是漸行改為1000萬那反正這個華澤啊高一點他因為底線我們沒有更改但是上線我們把他拉到1000萬那看我們主管機關的看法OK好那就"},{"start":15895.823,"end":15909.436,"text":"這是照行政院提案修正這個剛剛那個林昭偉提到的就這樣修正那就照行政案提案修正通過好 三十條 大家有沒有意見"},{"start":15918.679,"end":15940.754,"text":"這個也是我們黨版裡面本來是到一百萬然後我們把它拉到上限是五百萬上限五百萬那個十萬不敢一百改成五百我建議這樣主席就是在華澤部分就建議用民眾黨版本提高這樣"},{"start":15941.863,"end":15960.806,"text":"你有民眾黨版本嗎我們民眾黨版本是這樣民眾黨版本OK啦你們的 那民眾黨版本你們有看仔細了齁看一下啦對 你要看一下你要看一下 你不要都沒有看對不對 你看一下"},{"start":15969.847,"end":15995.154,"text":"沒關係就看一下因為你照行政的版本修正就那個字照民眾的版本要看整個版本沒關係你看一下其他都一樣"},{"start":15999.48,"end":16000.18,"text":"過來第四張第四張"},{"start":16022.588,"end":16046.189,"text":"不要不要耽擱這個時間啦我跟你講齁這個我拜託就是主席在這個部分齁你看我們的版本是這樣那可以用用這個版本那個留下這個紀錄是民眾黨的這個對好啦參考民進黨民眾黨可以可以可以好不好那就留下這樣比較單純齁那就是"},{"start":16048.551,"end":16066.238,"text":"參考民眾黨版本意見造行政院提案修正通過剛才有一個漏掉的再補充一下第四章的章免就是罰則這個大家沒有意見這個造行政院提案通過"},{"start":16071.003,"end":16087.694,"text":"31條 大家有沒有意見沒有的話 照行政院提案通過32條 大家有沒有意見第5張張明 第5張張明負責沒有意見 那就照行政院提案通過再來32條 大家有沒有意見32條是"},{"start":16106.529,"end":16119.794,"text":"已經叫所以30多條"},{"start":16124.161,"end":16147.777,"text":"不是 就是說你已經都說好了所以 你現在還沒說好好啦 沒關係啦 沒關係啦沒關係 還沒說好就是還沒說好所以現在是三十二條二十五條跟三十二條啦二十五條跟三十二條 你的意見是要保留啦是齁"},{"start":16151.754,"end":16177.003,"text":"好了,這樣這兩條就保留,好OK,再來33條,大家有意見嗎?沒有意見,照行政院提案通過34條大家有意見嗎?沒有,照行政院提案通過好這樣子總共保留的有哪幾條?保留"},{"start":16181.63,"end":16208.249,"text":"三十十一二十五三十二這五條保留其他通通通過了OK還有三十五條剛剛有一個鄰近縣提案張明這個不採納OK三十五條現在還有三十五條大家沒意見"},{"start":16208.803,"end":16236.286,"text":"那個那個我說那個日期把它定的比較明確化你有什麼困難嗎地方也要溝通的這個就就按照讓我們來指定好了啦我們會盡快盡快實施因為這個法是我們要用的所以我們一定會趕快讓他實施這樣但是要讓我們有一點溝通調整的時間否則各目的世界之外地方政府主席我建議在這裡啊台灣民眾黨建議是要定這個那因為"},{"start":16236.886,"end":16243.287,"text":"這個執行的話時間的話就授權給他們還是要留下紀錄民眾黨建立留下紀錄我們就照行政院提案通過再來附帶決議請宣讀附帶決議"},{"start":16268.044,"end":16278.724,"text":"徐志傑 羅美蓮等提案附帶決議提案人委員徐志傑等為確保我國之通安全 完善國內之通安全"},{"start":16280.949,"end":16300.397,"text":"應處機制 現行法於資通安全管理法下定有資通安全管理法施行細則資通安全責任等級分級辦法資通安全事件通報及應變辦法特定非公務機關資通安全維護計畫實施情形集合辦法資通安全情資分享辦法及公務機關所"},{"start":16303.118,"end":16321.867,"text":"立人員知通安全事項獎勵辦法等六執法為本次修法涉及多數重大變動其中涉及執法者除上述執法因隨同修正外上包括但不限於草案第五條第四項國家知通安全匯報組成"},{"start":16323.248,"end":16342.082,"text":"第十一條第三項自通安全產品審查程序第十六條第三項自通安全維護計畫必要事項第十九條第六項自通安全專職人員查核等內容尚待擬定執法加以規範中上所述為確保國家自通安全及完善自通"},{"start":16342.862,"end":16360.802,"text":"資安世界應處機制 原要求數位發展部資通安全屬序六個月內完成相關執法之擬定並於本法公佈施行時一併施行 避免出現法律真空影響國家資通安全 訓讀完畢好 這個說法部有沒有意見"},{"start":16368.379,"end":16387.115,"text":"就是原則上我們聽眾委員的意見那是不是把那個文字更明確的話就是說最後倒數第三行就是說社會發展部中央前屬虛擬總統公布後六個月內OK這樣比較明確六個月從哪裡算起OK"},{"start":16389.1,"end":16416.562,"text":"來主席那個你們考慮還是要我們這個一連貫的問題啊就是數位發展不是支通安全署這個要把它拿掉才會一連貫附帶結議裡面不要這裡又延伸一個什麼治安署這樣就整個我們的法令不連貫了所以我建議這個是否主管機關或者數位部這樣的話才跟我們的法令是連貫性的那就改成"},{"start":16418.757,"end":16441.734,"text":"主管機關 數位發展部就好與總統公佈後六個月內完成OK那個黃建豪謝謝主席主席我只要這個評論一下這個附帶決議而已就是其實你看這個附帶決議表示說希望大家在六個月內完成相關執法擬定並於本法公佈事項一併施行"},{"start":16442.475,"end":16464.01,"text":"好就表示說其實這段我們我們有些法條主張保留並不是沒有原因我們希望說真的定的更明確一點好大家再通過吧啊你如果我現在過了什麼執法都沒有那我就是空白授權啊這是我覺得今天會議的重點啊好不好謝謝好OK那大家有沒有如果沒有意見的話這個就修正通過好"},{"start":16469.307,"end":16471.069,"text":"如有委員對附帶決議補簽列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":16503.51,"end":16528.463,"text":"好協商完成做以下宣告今日協商結論免予宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄社會發展部建議條文及相關機關所送書面資料列入公報記錄針對今日的會議做以下決議"},{"start":16530.686,"end":16539.233,"text":"並按審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論時有許召集委員致詰做補充說明"},{"start":16548.656,"end":16574.387,"text":"請司法部就審查結果通過條文補充立法說明送交通委員會以便列於審查報告一併呈送立法院院會最後 條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員整理本次會議結束 散會"},{"start":16580.543,"end":16601.795,"text":"保留剛才不是都有講了嗎 再講一次來保留條文是第三條嘛第十條 十一條 二十五條 三十二條就這五條這樣OK齁 有人這樣清楚啦好 那本次會議結束 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按照我們立法院的相關的規定一定要有法案有待審的法案才能夠在這個地方開公聽會那因為有委員"},{"start":2150.987,"end":2177.916,"text":"幾位委員大家都知道黃珊珊、王思堅等委員他們有提融資公司法所以我們今天就按照相關規定我們來召開這次公聽會那麼第二個我之所以與你排這樣的一個案子我想因為大家都看到了這個融資公司啊已經大到有些融資公司大到比銀行還大了"},{"start":2178.952,"end":2180.323,"text":"那是又無限的擴張"},{"start":2184.039,"end":2210.604,"text":"這個大家都知道很多故事嘛三大猴子就是最最明顯的一個一個大家很不願意提到的一個事情發生了就是一部舊的一個二手車兩萬塊他居然可以輾轉的借到三四萬然後沒有辦法去還那這些的問題點點滴滴啊為什麼這個起草要設這個融資公司法的這些委員們啊"},{"start":2211.824,"end":2227.456,"text":"其實也不一定他們兩位還有其他很多委員也有這樣的意思是不是應該讓他列管那真的列管目前來講是沒有人管目前來講沒有人管因為沒有人管就是經濟部的商業組"},{"start":2228.777,"end":2257.111,"text":"以前是商業司他們就跟他們登記就可以做這樣的一個借貸的義務了那有關於利率怎麼定除了符合民法的16%最高上限之外其他幾乎都沒有相關的規定了所以想要立要立融資公司法的這些先進們大家的想法就是我們希望能夠有更好的規範那麼另外一方面我知道金管會到目前為止"},{"start":2257.931,"end":2278.319,"text":"態度非常暴溜比較直接了他的話金管會還是反對的等一下聽他講反對的理由反對的理由我想他們就講說我有金保法可以來處理這些的問題但是我們要主張要設專法的就完全沒有辦法認同這樣的概念所以今天"},{"start":2278.999,"end":2300.469,"text":"我們就有機會兩招我們一起來談那麼看看各位能不能談出一個結果出來我個人樂見我們今天有良性的互動如果有更多的共識那麼我也樂於願意我們一起來如果經管會也能夠提出版本的話我也樂於推動這個法案好"},{"start":2302.165,"end":2311.85,"text":"我們現在首先歡迎麗玲的學職專家在場委員政府機關代表參加這一次的攏制公司發的公聽會"},{"start":2314.393,"end":2341.066,"text":"我剛才這次整個內容都跟各位講了我們介紹在場的委員與會的學子專家跟政府機關代表委員還沒有人到 等一下會有委員到還有幾個委員都會表達會出席那麼我們原則上我們就介紹按照道德先後順序首先是台北律師公衛消費者債務清理"},{"start":2341.866,"end":2365.364,"text":"委員會的林永宋律師林律師大家都很熟悉他主推的他這個有點讓我想到以前的蔡同榮蔡公投一樣林永宋林榮之類的專門在推這個案子第二個是全國律師聯合會消費者債務經理委員會的林之鈺律師"},{"start":2367.076,"end":2394.876,"text":"第三位是台北律師公會消費者債務清理委員會的趙新偉律師第四位是民傳大學金融科技應用系主任林某祥主任第五位成心法律事務所的吳律師第六位政大財政系的教授黃志聰教授"},{"start":2396.667,"end":2421.999,"text":"第七位 台大法律學院的陳兆鴻教授第八位 協和國際法律事務所的谷湘宇律師第九位 燈光大學財務金融系的聶建榮教授第十位 台大國安所的葉國俊教授"},{"start":2428.223,"end":2442.626,"text":"有介紹過的第九位是淡江大學財務金融系的聶建榮教授也是我好朋友的好 我們政府的官員的代表金管外的陳彥良副主委銀行局的童政章局長經濟部3S化學署的陳密順副署長"},{"start":2453.368,"end":2471.02,"text":"法務部法制司的邱立芬專門委員我們現在就開始發言按照原例我還是希望我們蔡委會這裡等下完畢之後所有的發言的電子檔能夠一分給我們所有蔡委會的委員我們現在就規定我們宣布每位委員發言八分鐘結束前一分鐘按您提醒"},{"start":2483.499,"end":2503.625,"text":"原則上以專家學者的見到順序發言委員如果要發言我們會請到主席台的登記每位五分鐘我們會視情況再插進去裡面全部發言完畢後行政機關就月管全責整體的回應"},{"start":2504.725,"end":2510.051,"text":"那麼會 整個有一份報告會送到財務會那麼我們希望能夠報到電視台好 現在請第一位的協助專家林友松律師發表告見 請"},{"start":2529.885,"end":2545.033,"text":"耐委員各位關心這個議題的朋友大家早安我的題目是為何需要制定融資業法我們民間版叫融資業法我要按哪裡不會動不會動"},{"start":2561.199,"end":2580.012,"text":"現在在操作那個時間暫停一下可以嗎按上面好那麼首先第一個部分我來講公司業者業務亂又沒有了為什麼這樣抱歉"},{"start":2596.949,"end":2600.59,"text":"第一我要說的是因為公司法第15條說不能借貸所以我們出現了很多亂象就是假買賣真借貸超額計車的借貸等等那在下一頁"},{"start":2625.552,"end":2641.091,"text":"我們知道我們有一些利息的一些規定不可以負利等等但是現在實際上運作依照法院的裁定判決可以看得出來這些融資業者利率有時候高達四五十%負利然後小立各種名目下一頁"},{"start":2641.852,"end":2668.366,"text":"那麼因為我們本票本來應該都要記在一定的金額現在不少的業者要借貸人空白本票那空白本票金額空白他就借40萬跟你添60萬譬如這樣講這是造成很多問題再過來下一頁就是我們應該給人家企業這是很簡單的道理但是常常融資業者不給企業律師問他說你借多少不知道利率多少不知道因為我沒有企業有簽但是沒有給企業那麼"},{"start":2669.366,"end":2674.39,"text":"再來就是聯合徵信在銀行這邊有但是事實上"},{"start":2676.798,"end":2697.357,"text":"銀行局軍管會也規定說信貸不可以超過平均月收入的22倍但是融資業者沒有徵信所以他不知道這個人到底跟其他融資公司或者是跟銀行借多少都不知道所以常常有一個機車或汽車多次的貸款都有那信貸也沒有上限這些規定都沒有那麼"},{"start":2700.353,"end":2728.552,"text":"更嚴重的是這些融資業者甚至跟詐騙勾結在法院的判決書是看得到的那這個部分其實會有所謂代辦等等那這些沒錢了被詐騙沒錢了他介紹你的融資管道那這樣的融資跟詐騙警察到底是不是勾結其實是一個很大的問題甚至看到那些人借貸融資公司借給大學生甚至中學生他拿人力還錢當沒有錢的時候他跟你講說也許你可以來當車手"},{"start":2730.033,"end":2749.527,"text":"這很嚴重的事情 這社會很亂象那 當然 融資業者我們現在以前早期的銀行都是用電視廣告現在不是 是手機 網路那這些廣告很多誇大不實 很多的欺騙等等沒有人管那在下一頁目前 融資業者應收的又不見了"},{"start":2755.882,"end":2775.947,"text":"融資業者應收的債權高達數千億到底多少錢坦白講沒有人知道我看到金管會說我用金融消費者保護法就可以管市場的九成我要請問你的依據在哪裡你的計算基礎在哪裡你根本不知道台灣的融資公司多達幾千家"},{"start":2777.872,"end":2804.074,"text":"其實影響的非常大那我們要講的是這個有關融資業者這個基線的債權高達數千萬當時候雙卡風暴民國94年95年雙卡風暴當時候在7000多億那現在已經幾千億我們現在目前目前的台灣沒有債務催收的法令沒有只有你沒有外販形式都可以都在只要不外販形式我都可以幹"},{"start":2804.614,"end":2823.112,"text":"那這個部分會產生很多的社會問題如果我們再不提早規範的話會產生自殺、逃債、停留周險、犯罪、罹患很多疾病等等那麼在下一頁那金管會第二大點我要講的是金管會說我只要用金融消費者保護法"},{"start":2824.269,"end":2853.647,"text":"我的題目很簡單,為何沒用?就很簡單,就是沒用為什麼沒用?他的今天的報告我也看了他其實跟他們的新聞稿差不多他說他管私家全台的融資業者,融資公司就有兩千家據悉有兩千家,沒有人統計,但是可能有兩千家但是不是只有公司啊請問大家有一點概念吧很多的代書,很多的代辦是個人喔很多借錢也是個人喔那這加上去到底才你所謂的市佔力九成根據什麼?你拿出去給我看"},{"start":2855.011,"end":2883.521,"text":"再來為什麼沒有用因為基本上這個金融消費者保護法主要的三個概念第一個概念是十一條十一條之三是民事賠償你去告吧一個一個的告這對有錢的人去投資發生問題還有可能但是對沒有錢的人借錢這些弱勢者哪有可能有人力去告你行政不做好你要讓司法下游對了一大堆的案件嗎讓弱勢者進入痛苦嗎他哪可能告"},{"start":2884.417,"end":2906.174,"text":"再來就是說 沒關係 我有爭議處理 我有這個評議中心請你告訴我 這也是一個一個個案啊你前面的行政不管好 你講後面有一個爭議處理有什麼意義消費者金融保護法有12條之一沒錯有行政可以警告 可以停業 可以行政制裁我們不客氣的說 請監管會公告從這個法以來 你依照這個條文做過幾件的處罰有一個寫著告訴我 沒有好 再來下一頁"},{"start":2916.587,"end":2931.784,"text":"金融消費者保護法其實很多的亂象是沒有規範的沒有利息上限沒有維新沒有禁止互利沒有徵信的機制一個很好笑的事情金管會的今天的報告說要他們去KYC去認識客戶沒有徵信機制哪來的認識客戶"},{"start":2933.564,"end":2948.61,"text":"沒有徵信機制你怎麼知道他要跟誰借這個不可能的事情對詐騙集團的勾結沒有規範對不當吹售沒有規範對於提供的企業書沒有提供禁止購買本票的規範也沒有這些等等我要說的是"},{"start":2950.305,"end":2965.775,"text":"金管會用金融消費者保護法那麼錯向的條文然後用執法規這違反法律保留原則你這些規定其實沒有效果其實很多的問題有違反法律而且也很多都是沒有規範好 再來下一頁"},{"start":2967.113,"end":2986.053,"text":"我們融資業法的重點是什麼我們的民間版叫融資業法為什麼不叫做融資公司法因為日本叫做貸金業法因為規範的對象不只是公司包括個人行號合夥那我特別要講最近我發現我們一直在講融資公司請不要忘記了台灣多少的代書多少的代辦"},{"start":2986.874,"end":3008.085,"text":"多少的個人借貸這些的問題不一定比融資公司還少那我們的重點下一頁我們重點是許可制要有營業執照五年要你new你要再申請但是你這期間如果一再違反規定的話就會撤銷你的許可或者五年來不跟你有這個許可那麼在下一頁"},{"start":3009.207,"end":3034.195,"text":"我們認為要徵信跟借貸的上限所以我們認為融資業者要成立同業公會同業公會要成立聯繫徵信的機制要跟銀行的金融聯繫徵信中心要交分資訊我們認為這個貸款的金額要一個上限譬如說有擔保品的要擔保品的價值如果信用貸款的話就像銀行局所規定的平均收入的22倍跟金融單位共用"},{"start":3035.335,"end":3058.281,"text":"有關利率下頁有關利率的部分20%民廣是16%我們認為他的借給這些人信用比較不好16%是可以的當然這利率多少可以討論比民廣高一點是OK但是不可以巧立民募不可以互利那違經也要依照銀行局的概念有一定的限制下頁我們認為這個有關的貸款企業當然要給而且也要規範住案機關要規範應記載事項不應記載事項等等"},{"start":3061.857,"end":3072.214,"text":"不可以控買本票等等下一頁那有關如果融資業者真的能夠證明他是跟專門集團有勾結有共謀合作等等這些情況的話融資企業無效"},{"start":3073.342,"end":3100.003,"text":"借款人如果通常都已經交給詐騙集團這時候融資業者對借款人沒有請求權最重要是要賺錢讓他們有辦法賺錢再下來一點就是不得禁止不當業務或者廣告的業務的招攬或廣告行為這邊有一些規定那不當催收的部分我們也有所規定請大家看最後我們講一下就是有一些相關的融資業者負責的業務員催收人員要有一個"},{"start":3101.223,"end":3123.19,"text":"資格的規定那麼最後我們講其實最重要的行政能夠規範好就能夠避免個案進入司法程序或避免個案求救無門那這個部分我們基本上的概念就是說原則上日本很多的刑法我們比較多是行政法但是你一再違反才有刑法更嚴重就讓你停業或取消你的許可那麼"},{"start":3124.17,"end":3142.251,"text":"在下一頁基本上我們認為說今天很多的控制公司是上市公司下面升了子公司、孫公司、曾孫公司他如果有控制的這個情形是要負責任的一定要一起負責那另外就是說網路上如果有一些不當的廣告我們可以把它除去那麼"},{"start":3143.112,"end":3166.402,"text":"最後我要講的是主管機關市經管會經管會看起來今天的報告一再反對一再的對外的表示但是我們要對經管會講話因為今天台灣最有監管經驗的跟配備的人員的市經管會沒錯但是面對這麼多的融資公司如果你沒有給他經費人力配備他們也是做不來這個也理解為什麼他們一再的想"},{"start":3167.022,"end":3189.963,"text":"我們不想做這也可以理解這個原因但是這個要處理最後我們的決議是說我們認為融資金融機關以外的融資是有一定的貢獻我們沒有反對融資業者我們沒有反對但是要合法化要把它建立適當的規範讓他們可以遵循那麼我們也要呼籲立法院跟金管會能夠早日通過避免這些社會問題的惡化謝謝"},{"start":3192.571,"end":3202.259,"text":"好 謝謝林律師很完整的一個報告好 我們下一位請趙新偉律師 趙律師請對不起 林之宇 林之宇律師 剛剛跟錯了 對不起請"},{"start":3227.774,"end":3255.874,"text":"主席 各位在座的這個學者先進還有這個與會的各位貴賓還有關心我們這個議題的朋友大家好那我是全國律師公會聯合會的消費者債務清理委員會主任委員那我先要說明一件事就是說其實我們剛剛的林律師以及"},{"start":3257.364,"end":3278.242,"text":"等一下發言的趙律師以及我還有很多位律師我們其實從民國97年消費者債務清理條例實行以來其實已經是幾年的時間我們都一直在輔助很多這個卡債主就是在雙卡風暴"},{"start":3279.683,"end":3287.187,"text":"產生的一些卡債主呢來協助他們清理這個他們的債務那很慶幸的其實我們"},{"start":3289.015,"end":3315.931,"text":"總覺得自己應該慢慢的可以鬆一口氣了因為我們確實協助了很多當然我不敢講是不是所有的卡債族都已經全部進來這個程序處理但是確實有很多人因此得到了這個他們債務的重生的機會重新看他們的生活我們感覺非常的開心但是呢在近一兩年來我們發現另外一種債務"},{"start":3317.912,"end":3338.207,"text":"悄悄的發生了就是所謂的汽車貸、手機貸、機車貸剛剛主席提到兩萬塊的機車借三十萬我自己在第一線接到的案子是二十年的機車大家覺得值多少錢"},{"start":3339.468,"end":3364.176,"text":"我們勉強估他是三千塊其實大概應該沒有人會去買一個花三千塊買一個二十年的機車但是他卻可以貸到三十萬另外這個債務人他的三十五萬的汽車我本來想說他貸一百萬我想說你欠那麼多錢還開一名車結果沒想到他是"},{"start":3367.115,"end":3383.631,"text":"35萬的汽車借100萬那所以這個問題現在已經變成是雙卡風暴之後會不會產生另外一個風暴我們不敢講那首先呢我們就來進入我今天最主要的議題就是說"},{"start":3386.472,"end":3410.625,"text":"這個將融資業納管到金保法我們認為是沒有辦法徹底解決問題的首先我們從法制面來看就金保法它現在規範的幾個金融業銀行法、證券業、期貨法、保險業、電子支付業下一頁它其實都有相應的專法銀行法"},{"start":3412.946,"end":3436.697,"text":"證交法、期貨交易法還有保險法還有這個最新的電子支付機貨管理條例但是融資業呢沒有下一頁那我們簡單看一下金保法它的立法背景到底有沒有辦法是去規範到這個我們目前要講的融資公司法的部分融資公司業務的部分"},{"start":3437.932,"end":3455.348,"text":"那經貿法其實它因應在民國97年9月那個雷曼兄弟破產導致聯動債一夕之間造成很多人的損害那也因應這樣的社會背景政府開始思考關於這個衍生性金融商品"},{"start":3456.462,"end":3467.691,"text":"他的一個管制的問題還有提供消費者一個比司法程序更快的一個處理糾紛的方式所以才有這個金保法的規範下一頁"},{"start":3471.104,"end":3494.853,"text":"那金保法呢其實它全部就31條那第一個它條文內容其實非常的簡單第一個就是最主要就是金融消費者的保護嘛那其實很多其實是消保法的一個重申那第二個就是關於金融消費爭議的處理程序這個確實解決了很多這個金融消費的爭議那再下一頁"},{"start":3498.22,"end":3521.808,"text":"那其實我們從歷史面的角度來看這個農事公司的專法也不是我們這次一年才開始討論了那其實早在97年就已經有了這個一個草案來送立法院審議不過很可惜的是因為同年發生金融海嘯所以就暫停了好下一頁那接下來我們就要來看就是說"},{"start":3523.035,"end":3549.262,"text":"到底融資現在用金保法去納管是不是因為金保納管不是修母法它是只是修授權的這四個執法這樣的方式到底有沒有辦法來解決目前金融融資公司的一個亂象那首先我們看關於這個所謂契約約定的問題我們可以其實可以從這個比較表可以清楚的發現"},{"start":3551.854,"end":3576.11,"text":"經濟保護法規範是不足的譬如說剛才有林律師提到的這個空白本票的禁止這個是目前其實最大的亂象之一然後還有違經的上限還有借款金額的上限還有這個業務行為規範其實我們相對的那個融資公司法草案都是比較詳細清楚的在下一頁"},{"start":3578.908,"end":3593.148,"text":"然後再來就是有關於這個融資公司從業人員的資格的積極限制及消極限制還有這個融資業的許可以及相關的規範這個經保法和執法目前當然是沒有規範在下一頁"},{"start":3595.985,"end":3617.151,"text":"另外關於這個催收人員的部分催收這個不當催收也是現在融資公司亂象之一那目前比較起來金融保護法這部分呢只有對於不當催收有比較簡略的規定但是其實其他部分事實上都沒有規範好再下一頁"},{"start":3620.27,"end":3631.032,"text":"那關於這個融資公司融資業目前有一個亂象之一就是可能跟這個犯罪集團勾結我們我聽到有一個"},{"start":3632.179,"end":3659.473,"text":"一個媽媽一個很悲慘的案例她就是被詐騙集團騙去跟融資公司借錢那這部分目前金保法也沒有相關的規範另外最重要的是法律最重要的一個效率就是要有一個效果但是目前看起來我們認為用授權執法規範是有一些法律保留的原則的爭議在下一頁"},{"start":3662.295,"end":3685.316,"text":"好下一頁那最後我想再強調我們把時間線回歸到20年20年前雙卡風暴產生的時候造成了很多無辜家庭一家人燒炭自殺這個新聞是在民國95年2月的新聞我們再看下一頁"},{"start":3688.699,"end":3717.939,"text":"這個也是一樣同樣民國95年其實那時候大家應該都不陌生那也就是因為社會上有這樣子的一個卡在造成的一個社會悲劇所以才會有消費者照清理條例的催生那20年了我們來看是不是這樣的新聞是不是已經停止了我們看下一頁這個是在去年1月的時候"},{"start":3719.541,"end":3747.629,"text":"還發生的新聞一樣就是一對家庭一個家庭呢一對夫妻被融資公司銀行提告申請致富迷你生活陷入困境不得已選擇絕路所以下一頁大家還不陌生當時20年前一個銀行的廣告借錢是一種高尚的行為還有那時候的現金卡害了多少人"},{"start":3749.416,"end":3756.141,"text":"難道我們還要再讓這種的新聞和社會悲劇再繼續發生嗎好 謝謝大家好 謝謝林律師的發言 下一位請趙新偉律師"},{"start":3780.97,"end":3808.759,"text":"那個主席各位先生各位女士大家早安我是消貸委員會趙俊瑩律師因為我從97年一直在從事實務工作有關於那個消貸的問題就是卡債問題那我們最近在5年之間發現這個社會的亂象就是融資公司這個車貸"},{"start":3812.17,"end":3816.754,"text":"手機貸還有一個叫做實際上假買賣針蟹貸還有商品貸這些"},{"start":3822.076,"end":3848.395,"text":"而且我自己去查一些相關的這些融資公司的他的運收賬款或者負債那個簡直是比7000億還多我們現在講一下新型債務跟融資公司的一些關係那個麻煩這是我的總覽那個再下一頁"},{"start":3850.151,"end":3876.429,"text":"那一般傳統債務是無擔保無優先債務就等於說現金卡信用卡保證債務非金融債務就等於說融資公司債務地下錢莊國民年金等那新型債務大概就車貸再下一個那我們現在這個都是實務上的案例就等於說一個"},{"start":3877.54,"end":3906.786,"text":"公司汽車貸款59萬實際上他拿到就43萬6千塊然後他還了8萬1那還欠他61萬6就可以知道這些融資公司他的利息是怎麼算你還了本金以後你事實上你最後還超過他的本金的錢那下一頁"},{"start":3907.824,"end":3908.986,"text":"這是機車貸款機車貸款我們看機車都是沒有價值或五千塊或一萬塊的機車他可以借到三十萬"},{"start":3922.796,"end":3942.023,"text":"但30萬事實上有的根本沒有撥給他30萬但實際上他還了部分的錢像第一個案子他還借30萬他還了6萬1他還欠他3、4萬8但是大家你要了解"},{"start":3943.416,"end":3962.538,"text":"既然融資公司是這樣子的貸款就是說都是超貸那可見他的營收賬款的貸賬有多少會不會引爆一個金融的風暴所以說我們為什麼說一直要求主管機關金管會要來"},{"start":3966.432,"end":3994.005,"text":"來立融資公司法在下一頁那這個手機貸款大家可以看如果是六萬塊的手機事實上只有拿到四萬五就是一般大概貸款情形都是這樣在下一頁這個是我們目前在出一個案子他借三百五十萬實際上只有拿到兩百八十萬"},{"start":3996.018,"end":4015.405,"text":"扣掉兩成然後他繳了一百六十幾萬還欠兩百四十四萬那這個利率可能早超過四五十趴這是實際的個案而且這種案子不限於個人甚至包含"},{"start":4017.267,"end":4040.129,"text":"一般的中小企業但是呢主管機關對於金保法的限制只限制於個人那些中小企業如果碰到這種狀況的話不適用金保法的約束那叫那些中小企業怎麼辦這個是一個法院的"},{"start":4041.701,"end":4070.346,"text":"判決就是借15萬實際上只有拿到10萬5那法院認為利率是13.44%這超過我們民法16%再下頁那這個是一個典型的詐騙案例就說融資公司跟A去簽訂一個契約叫他去推廣A又跟B行銷公司在簽契約然後"},{"start":4071.4,"end":4096.693,"text":"一個一就是一個招攬人一來詐騙這個原告說要投資加密進行那確實借了錢但後來他提起確認本項債權不存在但是後來找到到底是招攬人這個一到底是哪家公司的人員後來查了半天呢"},{"start":4098.161,"end":4112.395,"text":"這一步都不是這些融資公司啊或者他的簽約對象都不是所以法院就認為這個是一個詐騙案認為原告就不負這個本票責任這下一位再下一位"},{"start":4116.823,"end":4133.904,"text":"然後目前我們認為這些車貸或商品貸都不提供債務人的借款契約金額還款明細而且債務人違約債權人在融資公司將利息滾入原本"},{"start":4135.194,"end":4162.461,"text":"計算本例合約中也沒有約定以未償還期數去乘以美期償還清額卻自行以此來計算本例而且最主要是說假如我今天在台北市借錢他的本票的裁定他是用到高雄去使得債務人根本沒辦法去打這種官司"},{"start":4164.178,"end":4191.238,"text":"所以說剛剛林律師有講到事實上融資公司都違反這些法律的規定它的利率都超過16%國內推動融資公司專法問題我認為是因為沒有法律的規定因為融資公司介於銀行跟民間之間的一個借貸關係所以說目前沒有人願意管"},{"start":4192.543,"end":4216.428,"text":"然後我們的主管機關呢經管會跟經濟部也是互踢皮球誰也不願意當主管機關來弄這趟再下業那這個是對於那個融資公司有關於那個就日本代金業法"},{"start":4218.379,"end":4242.828,"text":"由多重債務高利貸橫行,所以說他弄一個貸金業法,他的利率是大概上千二十趴在下跌但這個日本貸金業法,他適用在下跌,他是用日本利息限制法日本利息限制法大概本金不足十萬日元是每年二十趴十萬到一百萬十八趴,一百萬日元以下數在下跌"},{"start":4244.414,"end":4272.576,"text":"那這是97年的刑罪版本的那個利率是大概非自然人不得超過30%那自然人是20%再下一頁這是黃委員黃專委員他認為對自然人是16%非自然人不得超過25%再下一頁這黃委員民間版本大概我們是約定利率是不得超過20%"},{"start":4275.629,"end":4296.122,"text":"總結,因為我就看過今晚會金寶法的規定金寶法對董事公司規定只限於自然的而對中小企業都不適用,這個是一個很大的問題然後貧困中心是超過120萬元"},{"start":4298.573,"end":4323.243,"text":"這些受評議單位可以不受拘束可以再打官司金保法本身也沒辦法拘束到融資公司怎麼跟這些客戶去簽訂利率另外最重要一點是評議中心沒有辦法解決這些融資公司跟客戶的爭議的能力"},{"start":4325.103,"end":4339.21,"text":"那我認為這很有質疑所以說我們一定要立專法不管是融資業法或融資公司法來管這個那另外我最後報告一點"},{"start":4347.011,"end":4361.916,"text":"最後報告一點,我去查一些上市公司的公開資訊核論、中租、核敵、仲信、育隆、新興這些公司的"},{"start":4363.292,"end":4390.966,"text":"應收賬款有九千兩百多億他的負債總額一兆兩千多億你就知道其他公司未公開的話那個是多少所以我們希望主管機關能夠重視融資公司或融資公司業法謝謝好 謝謝趙律師的發言下一位請淡江大學財經系的這個聶教授聶主任請"},{"start":4412.529,"end":4430.137,"text":"首先當然非常的肯定我們整個方向要對我們現在所謂的融資業有一些監理的做法這個是讓大家肯定的可是我們先了解一下金融這兩個字金融當然就是資金融通我們知道因為資金"},{"start":4432.098,"end":4448.685,"text":"融通的待遇所以在街坊待房可以讓整個社會活絡我覺得這非常重要也就是融資的服務進入了民間企業這個對於一個國家發展是非常有幫助的當然我們這個資金融通到底要怎麼做要管制管多元我覺得這個我有我的看法"},{"start":4449.105,"end":4476.281,"text":"當然我先提出我的想法是彈性的一個金融工具應該要有一些比較中立的一個管制方式那麼我先講一下經濟學裡面非常清楚的雙四的辯證那一個是古典學派一個是凱因斯學派你可以完全用政府的手操控一切管得嚴嚴的就譬如現在川普他一個人操控遙控器可以控制整個世界那當然我們也可以用我們國家的力量來控制所有的融資註定的未來的走向"},{"start":4476.861,"end":4487.989,"text":"可是我知道 這個所謂的防弊和心力不管古典學派 凱因士學派你都應該要在弊端封鎖 然後心力還是要顧忌到當然這次因為我們看到了 不管這次非常"},{"start":4498.897,"end":4527.292,"text":"這有它的源起那當然很清楚的從卡債風暴那段時間我記得尤其在2022到2005之間我還常常上了舉光日去對軍人講他們卡債不要亂發真的就發生了卡債風暴後來當在金融海嘯當世代危機的時候就設計了CDO、CDS這是我們的專業當然這已經很肯定華爾街造出的一個亂象也使得世界產生了從這個各個投行Belston、Lim BrothersMoney全部一夕倒閉"},{"start":4528.092,"end":4542.909,"text":"那麼金融海嘯的發生當然這裡面有非常多受傷的民眾剛剛大家也講到因此也訂定了所謂的金保法金融消費保護法我覺得利益非常的完善包括等等等等上面寫的我就不多唸我時間非常有限那他指引"},{"start":4543.029,"end":4567.026,"text":"同方式也希望從公平合理 平等互惠 沉浸原則等等等等等時間有限 我就不練了當然這裡面就對到了一些銷行有一些所謂的損害賠償的責任我用紅色來標下來 這個當然也是應該的但是剛剛有人提到 當然有時候金額過大或者這些可能保護不足 也是有可能發生然而這時候當然就有不少人提出了一個重要的東西 叫做融資專法"},{"start":4568.307,"end":4592.686,"text":"這是我的見解如果我有所偏頗或者誤導請大家給我指教因為畢竟我們學者是走研究不一定這麼的實務專業那我覺得融資專法利益也非常好它第一個目的就是要增進資金的融通管道我剛講的金融然後健全融資業的經營和發展當然更要的是紅色這個叫保障融資業的客戶和借款的權益沒有錯當然也設定由主管機關是金管"},{"start":4593.847,"end":4621.255,"text":"這是暫時的一個專法對不對那當然它的業務定義很清楚叫做實質安金錢借貸的相當之業務可是這裡就有一個問題了當後面東西太多太細我不可能講太嚴當然這年包括積極資格消極資格的訂定我看了以後比銀行金融的工資的負責嚴格還更嚴譬如包括你過去有一些犯法什麼什麼的反正就是各種之前的一些履歷的這個嚴格把關可能在這個"},{"start":4622.835,"end":4645.894,"text":"這個租賃裡面可能更嚴格我看到專法是這樣當然是應該的因為這個比較不被看到一些單位尤其我們的監控銀行證券監控下的銀行證券比較會被注意到monitor到所以這位地下遊走嚴格監管有它的必要可是我覺得下面我有一個我的看法也就是到底這個專法有沒有它的必要去做"},{"start":4646.394,"end":4666.945,"text":"那我現在呢想想一下就是說假設我們訂定的甚至比一般金融業更嚴苛的話可能會有一些我覺得的問題那我先講一下這個國與國之間的風情那麼各位剛剛都有提到一個叫做這個貸金業法那貸金業法貸金就是日本叫融資的概念可是我覺得金錢融通有兩種"},{"start":4667.865,"end":4692.839,"text":"一種叫做融資業務就是融資租賃還有一種叫做資金待遇我覺得這兩個可能要稍微分開講那麼怎麼講呢資金待遇和融資租賃我覺得是兩回事為什麼呢都是融資可是你知道銀行裡面也有分契金和銷金這時候資金待遇可能是對銷金或也就是所謂的自然人剛才大部分談到的受傷較重的沒有力量去跟他上面反駁甚至透過金融"},{"start":4694.961,"end":4713.543,"text":"這個金保法也不一定完全得到他的賠償的這個就是我覺知應待遇的部分可是有另外一部分叫契金法人的部分可是這叫融資租賃這英文上是landing和leasing的不同那麼我要講的契金的部分是這樣當有人講到汽車的租賃可能好幾倍一輛汽車貸了好幾次這都有這種亂象我知道"},{"start":4714.824,"end":4733.04,"text":"但是我覺得當然這個金保法我先講一下我們的時間是有限我先講完我最後的利益是覺得依我現在看金保法就夠了但是呢大家覺得不夠是因為它現在的規範還不夠的深入也就是對租賃這個這一部分租賃公司的資金代理這部分還沒有去更細膩的去這個"},{"start":4735.742,"end":4754.04,"text":"擴大的去把它這個規範更清楚所以我覺得把它納入做擴大納入我覺得有它的必要這是我最後要結論啦也是融資專訪目前我覺得有點過嚴我先講結論因為我怕時間關係我覺得將來還我覺得要階段性的做會比較好因為我總覺得所有事情要由小放大"},{"start":4754.5,"end":4778.479,"text":"循序漸進的做那我們再慢慢把關因為我知道有些人跳得很急馬上想跳到融資專法為什麼這樣講呢我們知道日本是一個求好在有的國家你去過日本就知道我本人斜槓在日本有開公司我有中介公司有民宿公司我也有管理公司我算是了解日本的做法其他國家像台灣是求有在好像對岸也是我們做得很快很效率可是當一個"},{"start":4779.139,"end":4805.045,"text":"很求好在有的國家他有些基礎可以就可以如果不夠的話我跟你講他所有的效率都變慢這國家會越來越弱我覺得這就是自由和權的問題你要到底管多嚴我跟你講日本即便求好在有喔據我所知他待經驗法我們去學他我覺得我們不要學得似乎像我猶記得在公治治理的時候我們董事會裡面的以前台灣前十年從2000年有什麼呢有監察人有獨立董事還有獨立監察人笑死了"},{"start":4805.405,"end":4821.75,"text":"我們學了日本的兩組法什麼都學就日本根本沒有獨立監察人那還學德國那一套結果後來改了改成美國式全部改成所謂的審計委員會有董事會選出三個董事三個獨立董事分別公立委員會就提名委員會啊審計委員會還有新的委員會搞到最後是什麼呢搞到最後"},{"start":4822.37,"end":4838.675,"text":"還是學一個比較簡單的方式那日本詩不是很好嗎 錯 日本人的文情不同而且我們學得更嚴 每次都要比日本更嚴日本我跟你講 在《殆盡業法》有做而且是抓得很嚴 因為以前三國主席腐爛的這個催債造成民間很大的恐慌 這時候《殆盡業法》很嚴"},{"start":4839.335,"end":4863.503,"text":"可是他們對融資租賃據我所知並沒有那麼嚴他只是像以前民宿在2018年6月15號以前一樣是有法則但沒有法規去管得非常嚴的也就是這為了促進中小企業的經濟發展我舉一個最簡單的例子我過去在台中曾經我是金主會的顧問他們有一次有一個理事會的一個主管他找我去見一個朋友他是台中最大的婚紗店"},{"start":4864.983,"end":4890.12,"text":"他說混納電非常貴喔 可是他說他現在沒錢了要借貸我剛好是華銀行的董事他希望我能不能透過我去銀行借貸我說我不去做這個關係但是我跟他說你很難借他說可是你看我7G設備這麼貴這麼棒你知道一台多少我說錯了 銀行只會對土地和房子借你連晶片公司 連晶片給我我都不會借我跟你講那怎麼辦這些公司明明還可以生存還有未來的全部被卡關了我請問一下"},{"start":4890.7,"end":4907.396,"text":"如果你管得這麼嚴這些社專法這些老金在想一定要用專法來管管到這麼嚴的台灣經濟的未來中小企業的市場的融資界帶的活絡度以及國家經濟的發展在哪裡我知道我們的時間有限我每次講到最後都會發現所以我先把我最後講完"},{"start":4907.876,"end":4926.523,"text":"我的改革方案就不講 我最後就講那我覺得建議就是經貿法擴大私用 優小放大成流敗退循序建計 彈性調整就像以前談自經區的時候 我們也是這樣的想法你看大陸的自貿區一做完的上海自貿區馬上就有福建的三個自貿區然後是全新自貿區 就是這樣出來的我覺得這非常重要 這叫階段性要求有再好 再好"},{"start":4926.863,"end":4942.785,"text":"再更好金保法擴大適用就已足夠了無論金額多少我覺得都適用那在下面我講金保法擴大適用大家有幾個還是一樣的他還是有會讓這些企業者金保法裡面還是要有法尊你要強調他的法尊成本還是會增加的外部法則要加重"},{"start":4943.246,"end":4967.948,"text":"好 我覺得這也很重要 當然它額外的費用也會衍生所以不要認為說 你一下就要跳到那個階段你先把金融法擴大 適用讓這些能夠資金待遇給中小企業我覺得我強調是分開自然人 法人 這邊要盯得很嚴在這個資金待遇這部分 但融資租金這部分要watch 追蹤但是是不是要能夠給他一點財源讓國家盼望我覺得這非常重要 謝謝大家"},{"start":4971.223,"end":4976.44,"text":"好 謝謝聶教授的抱怨下面請黃珊珊委員請抱怨"},{"start":4983.947,"end":5006.598,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位貴賓我想今天非常重要謝謝昭緯排了融資公司專法的公聽會那我在上個月也開過一個公聽會其實融資公司專法我們立法委員並沒有訂件我們希望說以前因為融資公司它可能沒有那麼大的危害但是在我們去年上任之後"},{"start":5007.793,"end":5031.545,"text":"大家都記得有山盜猴子這樣的影片讓所有的年輕人現在已經開始都過融資然後付了非常高額的債那甚至還有不法的詐騙集團要被害人再去融資公司繼續借錢來給他騙今天的問題在於我們的銀行融資困難所以中小企業不容易得到才因應而生了其他的融資管道"},{"start":5032.245,"end":5050.805,"text":"那當然融資管道在我們以前可能是營樓可能是所謂的當鋪甚至是地下錢莊那現在的問題是大家已經不再做地下錢莊而是合法的向這些融資租賃公司來做借款而這個借款變得非常非常的糜爛尤其是真融資"},{"start":5052.387,"end":5070.695,"text":"假租賃一個摩托車一個手機可以接到超過它價值非常非常多的相關的額度這才是我們今天要管的東西所以它已經不單單只是銀行跟所謂一般租賃業的問題了而是我們對租賃公司並沒有任何的規範"},{"start":5071.915,"end":5089.531,"text":"銀行管很嚴 註定公司完全幾乎沒有管制尤其是催收 違約季的上限 利率的計算方式甚至所謂貸款審核 它都沒有任何的限制也沒有任何的法規 才是我們今天要立專法的目的那這個專法到底要限到多少 多嚴 這個都可以討論但是我們如果沒有訂出一個 他們應該有的規範就會像現在這樣的狀況"},{"start":5096.857,"end":5115.294,"text":"假租赁的名义去做真融资的贷款那更严重的是我们的民众没有所谓的金融素养他们对于他们自己面对到未来的这些债务的状况其实也不是那么清楚融资公司的规模已经从一般的公司它已经扩大到我们我称之为所谓的影子银行"},{"start":5115.934,"end":5133.751,"text":"中租抵合的资产是9000多亿容预留的资产是2000多亿已经超乎甚至跟我们银行公股银行的规模是相当的那第二个部分就是他们在业务上面并没有像银行收到这么多的限制所以他们的宽松核待对担保务的要求"},{"start":5134.432,"end":5154.54,"text":"還有所謂的空白本票以及相關用手續費違約金來做所謂的把利息隱藏在這些費用裡面這些不肖的業務員或不肖的相關的這些業者他們其實是才是今天融資公司專法想要管制的對象最嚴重的是鼓勵民眾繼續的借貸"},{"start":5156.801,"end":5175.635,"text":"甚至越借越多然後造成民眾沒有辦法還錢的這個狀況那金管會的部分在我們上任之前其實完全沒有管後來彭主委上任之後其實真的比以前要認真許多但是我們還是有兩個可以做的事情第一個監察人最近糾正了"},{"start":5176.596,"end":5194.554,"text":"公股銀行因為公股銀行借貸出去給這些所謂的融資註定公司並沒有做任何的規範跟要求如果金管會要管他可以從公股銀行的核貸後面的所謂的貸後管理我們錢借出去了他用到哪裡去不知道只要他付利息就好"},{"start":5195.314,"end":5210.148,"text":"這不是金管會可以迴避的責任也就是說這些大型的融資中心公司他把錢借走了他做了哪些事他用很低低的貸款然後取得很高利的貨報酬一個周圖迪和他的應收賬款 貸賬就高達一百多億請問他賺了多少錢"},{"start":5214.292,"end":5236.505,"text":"今天才是這個問題所以第一個金管會該做的是公股銀行的代後管理完全沒有做現在開始做還來得及第二個做法是金管會我們一直說只要納金保法的納所謂的20家但是剛剛講了這20家只是你管得到的還有很多你管不到的但是我們現在在行前防治法在我們去年修法之後"},{"start":5237.881,"end":5267.341,"text":"在洗鹽防治法的第五條第二項其實規定的很清楚辦理融資性租賃還有提供虛擬資產服務的事業跟人員適用本法關於金融機構的規定也就是洗鹽防治法已經把融資租賃業放進去了也就是我們金管會可以管虛擬資產服務也可以管融資租賃業它適用金融機關的規定所以我們必須要把融資租賃這個部分的定義把它定清楚否則你到底"},{"start":5268.621,"end":5297.084,"text":"洗錢防治法要規範誰如果我們今天沒有一個融資租賃的定義的話這個洗錢防治法又是一個沒有用的東西所以我們在講如果金管會真的要管你可以對虛擬資產業者讓它變成基隆機構你同樣也可以對融資租賃業把它變成基隆機構在洗錢防治法本身就可以規範所以不要告訴我說金管會不能管太多金管會已經把這個放在洗錢防治法了所以只要"},{"start":5297.865,"end":5318.396,"text":"像虛擬資產業者一開始我們也沒辦法管所以現在要他什麼自己來聲明自己來登記現在慢慢慢慢納入管理所以這些事情不是不能管是你要不要管經管會的做法要不要強力來推動第一個代後管理第二個透過洗錢防治法的方式在這個部分要求他們來做聲明來做登記"},{"start":5319.497,"end":5343.854,"text":"在還沒有辦法納管專法之前金管會可以做得更多監察院報告要求金管會要訂出專法這也是我們立法院希望能夠開放各界討論所以今天的討論會非常非常的珍貴因為接下去我們有相關的法案我這邊有台灣民眾黨的版本王世堅委員有他的版本我想很多的財政委員會都有自己的版本我們也希望看到金管會的版本以上 謝謝"},{"start":5345.56,"end":5353.725,"text":"好謝謝黃委員的發言下一位請吳俊志律師請發言請好那主席各位長官還有各位先進大家好好"},{"start":5376.933,"end":5403.188,"text":"那融資公司目前造成的一些消費亂象我相信大家剛剛前面幾位律師都跟大家說明的還蠻詳細的那我這邊就是稍微補充一下一般來講我們遇到這種就是債務的話那以往我們是什麼樣的就是解決的方式因為就是不管說這些債務是怎麼造成的那最後還是必須要就是把它解決不然它會長期用待帳的方式"},{"start":5403.948,"end":5424.27,"text":"持續存在那我們過去的就是消費的債務清理條例就是在這樣的前提之下它設計出來那目前的消債機制呢它原則上就是前面會有一個前置協商的程序那這個前置協商的程序我們是希望說那金融機構可以大家就是全部擬出一個共同的方案那"},{"start":5424.77,"end":5445.516,"text":"消費者就針對這個方案還就好不用說今天就是5號還A公司10號還B公司那樣子就是情況變得非常複雜那每一家計算的時間跟利息也不一樣那如果說協商沒有辦法成立的話呢後面才會走到所謂的更生或是清算那就是由法院來裁定說這個債務人他的"},{"start":5449.557,"end":5473.424,"text":"消費能力那是他能夠還多少錢或者是說他可能根本就沒有負擔的能力那可能就直接用他目前的資產來就是清償這些債務那當然後面的程序非常的冗長所以可以的話那當然立法的緣由是希望說大家能夠在前置協商的階段就協商成當然是最好的但是目前因為這幾年融資公司的"},{"start":5474.304,"end":5479.202,"text":"案件量越來越多的關係導致這個前置協商好像變成形同虛設下一頁"},{"start":5482.538,"end":5510.882,"text":"為什麼會說形同虛設呢因為我們目前消費者債務清理條例是這樣規定的那簡單來說就是說所有的金融機構他們會統一提出一個方案但是不是金融機構的他就不管你了所以當你的融資公司或是說不一定是融資公司可能是資產管理公司就是有可能原本銀行這些債務已經被賣給資產管理公司了那我們就是說這個案件在前置結商階段可能就很難解決了"},{"start":5511.542,"end":5540.279,"text":"就變成說消費者必須單獨去跟這個融資公司或資產管理公司去談然後其他的部分銀行會提出一個方案我們也可以想像說就是消費者可能很難有辦法去跟融資公司或資產管理公司談一個方案甚至以我們的經驗融資公司根本就不願意談甚至他們還有可能會放話說沒關係你可以去辦更生那等你辦到更生之前我們就繼續走程序"},{"start":5543.083,"end":5571.537,"text":"那這樣子的情況呢也會變成說以往因為以往我們的消費者債務清理的前提是說這個債權人可能是金融機構但是現在呢我們發現說債權人裡面是融資公司的比例越來越高那這個融資公司比例越來越高它又導致說我們前面的協商變成說完全沒有協商的可能這是目前我們的消費者債務清理的一個困境那第二個問題呢下一頁上一頁"},{"start":5573.325,"end":5597.352,"text":"就是我們公司法第15條在目前的情況形同虛設公司法第15條原則上就是公司的資金除非有業務往來的話不可以任意貸給其他人嘛那原則上金融業者他可以貸給其他人這是沒有問題的但是一般的公司他不行那目前的融資公司用什麼方式呢他就是用手機貸或是商品貸這些很常見的手段"},{"start":5598.592,"end":5624.046,"text":"那剛剛就是前面幾位律師都有介紹到說就是這些手機或是商品它的超過餘放比可能非常高例如說一個價值就是三萬的商品然後可能就是代表十萬代表二十萬然後後面可能就是還有就是所謂的空白本票甚至說利率非常高的問題那甚至我們還遇過就是不只是這些大家想說手機代可能就是代個五萬"},{"start":5626.548,"end":5644.813,"text":"有一些個案我就問債務人那你的手機在哪裡我看他可以就是擔保多少他說什麼我從頭到尾都沒有拿到手機啊我就說商品袋問他說那你商品袋你袋的商品到底是什麼他說沒有那個就是一個借錢的名稱而已我從頭到尾都沒有拿到什麼商品"},{"start":5646.279,"end":5663.095,"text":"所以這種時候我們就發現說不只說它是超過單保品的價值甚至說它一開始連單保品都沒有拿到那這個單保品呢它一開始只是一個就是交易的幌子而已所以呢另外呢就是剛剛有提到就是"},{"start":5664.328,"end":5690.029,"text":"違約金的問題我們還有另外一些債務跟大家分享一下就是如果這些債務將來我們預期到說利息會很高那我們就確認當事人說你趕快就是先還一還嘛但是我們後來幫他算了違約金呢就是如果提前清償是有違約金的提前清償的違約金比繼續還的利息還要高就是說我想要讓他提早還都沒有辦法提早還"},{"start":5691.755,"end":5716.535,"text":"那目前對消費者的債務可能就會陷入這樣的狀況那剛剛也有律師就是幫我們介紹到說剛剛那個趙律師也有幫我們介紹到說目前融資公司的餘放比其實比銀行要高得非常多那這個部分我有查過就是目前台灣各家銀行的餘放比大概都在0.1到0.2之間"},{"start":5719.818,"end":5745.551,"text":"但是融資公司即使是一些上市融資公司那這邊的餘放比他們也是2%到10%那甚至是說我們一些中小型的融資公司他們可能餘放比會更高那這將來會不會有可能的金融風險那其實也是一個值得觀察的地方當然有這麼高的餘放比那也就代表說在銀行以外那其實有很高的資金需求"},{"start":5746.371,"end":5774.75,"text":"那如果我們把這些資金需求全部嚴格限制的話那對中小企業來講會不會是一個他們必須要去尋求一些更高風險或更高利息的借貸那這也是我們認為說就是需要考量的地方所以就是這個融資公司法呢規範的部分除了自然人以外是否有必要規範到中小企業或者是說規範到的公司法人的範圍我覺得這個是可以討論的地方"},{"start":5778.253,"end":5803.553,"text":"好 那我這邊簡單建議就是說我們在消費者的前置協商的部分是不是可以考慮將融資公司同步納入那以免說我們目前的前置協商程序就是實際上變得形同虛設這樣子那另外就是說就是我們的融資公司法裡面有規範說有擔保品跟無擔保品那有擔保品的部分不能超過這個擔保品的價值嘛"},{"start":5804.053,"end":5818.667,"text":"那這個擔保品我們是不是能夠實際上去規範說這個擔保品你必須要交到消費者手上那必須要在簽的當下確定說這個擔保品的價值以免像我們剛剛提到的許多就是根本就沒有取得擔保品擔保品只是一個幌子的狀態"},{"start":5819.855,"end":5847.547,"text":"好那最後就是說剛剛有幾位同道已經建議過了就是跟目前的徵信系統去做一定的整合讓就是這些在貸款的同時能夠有辦法去判斷說他是跟其他融資公司甚至說就是跟當鋪或者是說跟銀行目前已經有多少債務那在綜合評估說要借他多少錢那以免說這些消費者在銀行以外又負擔了太多自己根本就沒有辦法清償的債務"},{"start":5848.988,"end":5877.685,"text":"好 那我報告到這邊好 謝謝吳律師的說明下一位請林思敏立委請謝謝主席各位委員 各位學者 專家 大家好我想網路影片啊三道猴子的一生雖然已經上架兩年了"},{"start":5878.652,"end":5903.806,"text":"但是我們只要談到融資公司的放款的亂象都還是會被人提起說這是為什麼那就是因為到現在都還沒有一個專法來有效監管影片中所提到的那些真實的融資放款的問題更也已經造成無以數計的融資借貸的受害者"},{"start":5905.086,"end":5923.082,"text":"其實在民國97年行政院就已經提出了融資公司法草案並且在當年的2月4號將該草案送到我們立法院來審議但是因為同年爆發了金融海嘯因此這部專法的審議就不了了之了"},{"start":5924.687,"end":5946.382,"text":"而我們到今天為止民間借貸的業務是越見普遍也因此而出現許多借貸的亂象我們看到一台價值才兩萬元的機車而且不是新車二手的現在可以借到三十到四十萬非常離譜"},{"start":5948.171,"end":5964.448,"text":"也就是因為有許多類似這樣不合理的高利放貸或者超出常理的這種借貸交易造成我們非常多急需用錢的民眾反而掉入這些無盡的債務深淵之中"},{"start":5965.629,"end":5990.796,"text":"甚至還有融資公司的不肖業務員跟詐團來掛鉤聯手來詐幹我們這些事業者或者是我們的老人家以及一般的民眾以假借貸真詐財的方式來獲取不法的高額利息這種亂象以及不法的行為讓原本是提供民眾另一個借貸管道的通路"},{"start":5994.502,"end":6002.553,"text":"來解決他們這個燃煤之急的融資公司這個部分已經變成為嚴重的新型的一個債務源頭"},{"start":6004.349,"end":6024.975,"text":"但是我們來看金管會現在提出的解決方案是先將中租、育農、和潤以及日盛台郡4家上市集團下面的12家融資公司納入我們剛才講的金融保險金保法金融消費者保護法"},{"start":6026.976,"end":6039.686,"text":"來納管並授權相關執法修法來強化金融消費的保障也就是說金管會他還是不打算提出專法來監管以及解決融資公司借貸的種種問題"},{"start":6041.687,"end":6066.929,"text":"但我們看到這樣的做法能夠來解決本席所提到的各種融資借貸的不合理以及違規的亂象嗎能完善的保障我們民眾的權益嗎當然不行啊所以我們認為依照金管會的做法除了是緩不濟急以外也沒有辦法完整有效的解決融資借貸所延伸的金融消費問題"},{"start":6068.547,"end":6087.827,"text":"我們因為在二零一年通過的金保法他主要處理的是金融消費者所購買的金融商品以及服務的消費爭議事件尤其是針對延伸性的金融商品以及各類的保當商品因此金保法所設立的"},{"start":6089.048,"end":6107.44,"text":"依照金保法所設立的金融消費評議中心一直以來他們專注處理的是解決金融及保險糾紛面對我們這種更為複雜的融資公司的借款問題評議中心可以說是接觸的案例非常的少"},{"start":6108.823,"end":6127.464,"text":"所以我們也質疑說這個平均中心能夠去解決有能力解決這種融資借貸的問題嗎我們加上在金保法之下平均中心他所能決定的金融消費的一個糾紛的一個賠償額度最高就是一百二十萬"},{"start":6128.564,"end":6138.519,"text":"而且最後還是要訴求法院就仰賴民事求商而關於我們中小企業戶的保障根本沒有辦法處理"},{"start":6140.645,"end":6162.136,"text":"若是再加上遇到融資的詐騙金保法絕對是不足以處理並監管這些融資公司所延伸的相關的問題所以即使金管會目前的做法可能是過度措施但是別忘了各種融資借貸的問題還是每天持續在上演"},{"start":6163.92,"end":6169.817,"text":"絕對不應該用這種過度的方式來解決這樣的問題所以一定要栗酸法來徹底解決"},{"start":6171.055,"end":6197.857,"text":"我們在國內我們看到當鋪業者有專法就當鋪業法虛擬資產我們現在也正在討論虛擬資產的服務法但我們最需要專法的融資公司業務卻到現在還沒有下落因此我要呼籲除了我們委員所提的版本以外行政院金管會也應該儘速提出相關的版本來回應"},{"start":6200.4,"end":6203.036,"text":"我們97年就有融資公司法的草案"},{"start":6204.366,"end":6232.505,"text":"可以作為參佐同時我們剛才有位學者也提到說外國的立法例比如日本的貸金業法英國也有消費信貸法所以我們盡快的重新的提出融資公司的專法以監管處理融資借貸的各種金融問題一來可以讓融資公司有法可循提供合理合法的融資管道給我們民眾二來也可以讓有需求的民眾"},{"start":6234.026,"end":6261.707,"text":"能夠在法律的保障之下來取得他所需要的資金來營造一個完善的融資環境提升我們國內金融市場以社會的安全與穩定以上 謝謝好 謝謝林市民委員的發言下一位請政大財政系的教授黃教授請"},{"start":6281.741,"end":6309.179,"text":"主席在座的各位委員還有在座的各位學者先進大家好今天我來參加這個公聽會基本上我覺得是非常有意義的因為剛提到很多學者專家還有我們委員的一些意見我覺得大家對於消費者的保護非常的重視這也是我長久以來一直堅持的一個方向就是我們要保護消費者"},{"start":6310.64,"end":6326.56,"text":"但是今天有關於金融租賃監管的問題我想今天我在這邊就針對幾個部分在家裡說明一下我的想法跟各位先進跟各位委員來做一個分享下一頁"},{"start":6330.595,"end":6358.383,"text":"我先就各方的立場做一個比較然後再把這個金保法納管的累積跟經理經驗然後再審慎評估那個融資公司法的一個情況做一個說明接下來我們再提出我們覺得監理的差異化對於監理的銷金維護中小企業融資的空間然後做一個報告最後我們再做一個結論我想我們看了幾個"},{"start":6360.424,"end":6386.227,"text":"學者專家的一些想法就我個人來說我個人覺得租賃業是基本上是台灣經濟發展中非常重要的一環因為有很多在性不良的一些企業他要融資的時候他可能沒有辦法循一般的管道到金融機構去所以租賃業就補足了他們的這個銀行的缺口那基本上來講我個人覺得如果要嚴禁這個"},{"start":6387.768,"end":6407.155,"text":"或嚴格的管制或甚至到最後如果出了問題給他禁止那這樣的一個做法對於租賃人員來講可能不是一個很恰當的方式那當然我個人覺得就是對於這個治安人和法人的這個金融的部分對於個人和企業融資的部分"},{"start":6408.476,"end":6424.21,"text":"基本上來講應該要差別化的管理因為這兩個是相當不同的一個對象說實在話我認識學生有在從事租賃業他們跟我講他們害怕企業被他們詐騙他們"},{"start":6426.158,"end":6452.725,"text":"不是他他們沒有辦法詐騙企業但是對消費者來講可能是消費者被詐騙這也是剛剛為什麼很多委員很多先進很在乎的這一塊那當然我也很支持大家對於這個消費者金融保護的部分那當然還有其他的學者也是針對這個所謂BNPL的一個部分他提出一些看法合理監理這個提高消費者的保護那"},{"start":6455.014,"end":6468.179,"text":"再加上有一些部分他也是支持我的看法就是有關於企業和消費者融資的分別他要管理下一頁可以下一頁嗎"},{"start":6471.411,"end":6500.931,"text":"那基本上來講我覺得這個我們目前的這個金融消費者保護法裡面已經把這個過度借貸然後誤導廣告還有不當缺售這些部分我們已經有做一些適當的一個處理那當然這些部分也許還沒有完善就好像剛剛有幾位這個我們律師的這個律師界的一個前輩大家所提出來但是我覺得也可以再加強但是我覺得這一塊再提升這個消費者所謂部分應該會有相當大的一個提升"},{"start":6501.831,"end":6527.044,"text":"另外就是說如果今天我們貿然的把這個所謂的這個融資公司法通過的話那可能我們可能就是要一步到位啦那一步到位的結果我不知道目前產生的問題是因為我們沒有通過這部法但是如果我們通過這部法之後呢會不會產生另外一堆的問題這是我比較擔心的因為很多的中小企業可能因為這樣"},{"start":6528.891,"end":6551.418,"text":"借不到錢那他們接下來生計他們不是一個人他們可能還有好多的員工這是我比較擔心的那當然如果你要接近各國的經驗日本的這個代經業法的部分基本上到最後的結果是什麼是很多的企業就退場轉到地下去那也很多企業可能借不到錢這是我們也是蠻擔心的那當然我們這個"},{"start":6555.638,"end":6583.831,"text":"我們當然希望我們去監理這個銷經的部分所以我們要遏止民眾信用不當的擴張我們要設立這個融資條件審查和明確的契約的規範另外我們金保法納管強化對過度借貸廣告和不時不當吹收我們會進一步的控管另外我們也會增加金保法納管業者的數量適切的提升融資業者提高消費者的保護"},{"start":6585.846,"end":6612.389,"text":"當然我覺得目前我們要求租營業遵守一些法規這是我們接下來一定要積極的去進行避免未來有更多的所謂的消費者在借貸部分被詐騙的情況所以我們要求業者要積極配合監管機構另外產業提升自律守則另外強化消費保護的能量當然我們要關專法這個專法也不是不行"},{"start":6613.43,"end":6622.696,"text":"我覺得在什麼時候做什麼事可能是一個比較好的思考的模式也就是說循序漸進的來目前為止我們就一步到位的話剛剛聶俊忠教授說的目前專法裡面所設定的條件比銀行業還要嚴苛的話"},{"start":6633.402,"end":6646.116,"text":"那這個對中小企業的融資未來可能造成的影響我相信這是未來我們沒有辦法預期的所以當然這個時候如果我們逐步的去推動也許會是一個比較好的一個做法"},{"start":6647.185,"end":6669.293,"text":"那當然這個目前全球是不確定性在這個當下我覺得沒有人知道接下來會發生全世界的金融業全世界的經濟會發生什麼事情所以注定市場基本上來講如果目前的運行當然在消費的部分有受到一些不好的一個情況發生我們要去監管之外"},{"start":6670.934,"end":6692.109,"text":"租賃市場已經成為資產管理和資金運作的一個重要環節所以我覺得在這個當下是不是要把這個專法通過我覺得我是持相當的保留的態度因為如果通過的話有可能他們全部轉為地下化而且即使通過了那些"},{"start":6693.01,"end":6719.647,"text":"沒有納管的就像剛剛有學者張家說的好幾千家這好幾千家全部都納管我相信不曉得第一個他們在哪裡第二個即使全部都納管金管會有沒有辦法去去處理啊這我就覺得非常納悶我就覺得很質疑那另外就是說當然剛剛有學者提到說這個"},{"start":6721.909,"end":6743.751,"text":"這個租賃業,這個融資租賃業的預放比例很高,當然很高啊因為很多企業,因為很多債性不良的這些企業,他需要啊所以他當然這個預放比就很高啊,你這個預放比就表示他債性不良所以當然要高風險高報酬,可是高風險高報酬的情況之下你又把那個利率要限制在某個地方,避免他們會被這個道具產生不好的影響"},{"start":6744.452,"end":6767.331,"text":"所以這個利率過低的結果,造成有這個循環的情況所以我個人就覺得說,如果要做的話可能是不是逐步先求有再求我們先從消費總金融保護法開始先做,那不夠的地方我們再補充另外逐步的推動之後,如果這可以解決大部分消費者被金融詐騙問題的話我們就不要再做,如果還沒有我們再繼續再進行下去"},{"start":6772.802,"end":6776.871,"text":"好 謝謝黃教授的發言 下一位請 王世堅委員 發言請"},{"start":6792.764,"end":6814.41,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝今天來的各位辛苦的教授還有法學界這些好朋友們你們非常有正義感因為其實我這個我去年2月1號上任第一天之後我的第一次質詢就是針對數條三兄弟"},{"start":6818.896,"end":6842.001,"text":"這個有牌的地下錢莊他們的可惡惡行惡狀而我認為薯條山兄弟以及一乾租賃公司 融資公司等他們的惡行惡狀背後等於政府縱容他們啦尤其銀行體系怎麼說呢"},{"start":6844.934,"end":6863.066,"text":"這薯條三兄弟十幾二十年來已經龐大到他們成為金融怪獸不但上市上櫃他如果拿出來借的錢自己的錢也就算了 不是他左手向銀行體系借了五千多億"},{"start":6864.727,"end":6886.4,"text":"利息連一趴都不到右手放高利貸20%的高利貸給需要的民眾們吸血啦左手借一趴而且銀行的錢社會大眾的錢耶右手去做他們的高利貸那這跟地下錢莊有何不同"},{"start":6893.823,"end":6920.843,"text":"地下錢莊只是遮遮掩掩不是嗎那他們是有牌的地下錢莊公然的在社會上還講一些話說沒有他們那需要錢借不到向銀行借不到款的民眾們那怎麼辦要跟當鋪要跟地下錢莊借囉還講這種威脅的話我全然不接受"},{"start":6923.615,"end":6944.855,"text":"那麼現在的亂象如果不再管他們這些鼠療三兄弟為首的這些融資公司已經啊比方說他們底下的業務員已經跟詐騙集團勾結要欺負更多的民眾"},{"start":6946.463,"end":6948.787,"text":"因為詐騙集團勾結 詐騙集團要騙錢啊透過你沒錢你怎麼給他騙 好啦他的業務員去招攬生意從註定公司借錢 借來給詐騙集團騙"},{"start":6961.647,"end":6987.557,"text":"受害的民眾本來借不到錢就已經很傷腦筋他可能要從事一個小規模的自己的小生意可能要買個車子機車送貨等等結果反而被不肖的業務員不肖的這個融資公司又把他們剝了另外一層皮然後"},{"start":6989.591,"end":6996.685,"text":"鼠條三兄弟為首的這幾家大的他們貸款的觸角已經也到了不動產"},{"start":6998.51,"end":7027.026,"text":"到了建設營造那個行業了本來呀我們國家的銀行貸款給這些不動產業者有個上限中央銀行規定每個銀行貸款給不動產給建設公司建設行業不得超過他當日存款總額的30%用這樣子來控管對不動產的放款這是對的結果"},{"start":7028.847,"end":7051.943,"text":"這些薯條山兄弟他大剌剌的把錢搬給這個不動產業者那這就成了這個破口嘛因為薯條山兄弟他們不屬於金融業不是銀行業不受這個管制啊那金管會"},{"start":7053.739,"end":7068.51,"text":"總是在我黃珊珊委員好幾位委員關注之下總算他們翻箱倒櫃找了金包法說用金包法把鼠條三兄弟先納管那他們的好意我接受他們是說啊"},{"start":7069.804,"end":7097.555,"text":"王士堅你講的這個租賃金融公司管理法它裡面很多我們都把它列入列入這個金保法啦這個金保法但是必須去找薯條三兄弟商量說把你納管要他經過他同意要把他納管給薯條三兄弟一個重量的機會就對了"},{"start":7099.85,"end":7124.236,"text":"結果鼠寮山兄弟好啦聽一聽他就說好吧他也說好但是我認為金保法只是個過渡金保法是為了我們要快速的保護金融消費者就是受害的民眾們我們可以透過他來債務協商那這個暫行可以但是進一步一定要租賃農事公司管理法我為什麼這麼講因為我們"},{"start":7127.257,"end":7153.711,"text":"進一步的這個專法才能夠對這些二職的屬良產業力跟這些農資公司才可以對他們做行政監督跟業務監督啦所以我認為這個農資公司的成立圖定公司的成立需要經過主管機關的許可必須取得證照才可以營業而且我認為這個證照必須一定的年限比方說五年他就必須重新申請然後"},{"start":7154.992,"end":7165.332,"text":"這些融資業者不得借牌違反有刑事責任那必須製作聯報接受檢查的義務我認為這些都必須把它納入"},{"start":7166.448,"end":7193.88,"text":"然後他如果違反這些行政監督管理的項目我們應該可以停止他融資業務可以解除融資業務者相關人的職務然後我們進一步可以廢止這個許可證可以不讓這個融資公司這個租賃公司再橫行霸道然後這些公司背後的控制公司控股公司也必須接受"},{"start":7195.453,"end":7219.31,"text":"融資專法的管理比方說一樣對這個公司犯了錯誤背後的控制公司自然也應當受到罰還甚至 甚至一樣就是所有的處罰有刑罰的部分也能夠對背後的控股公司那網路不當的廣告啦那本來就應該限制"},{"start":7220.311,"end":7243.593,"text":"限制而且要移除他們在網頁繼續來使用那業務監督的上面我認為對於借貸金額的上限我認為對借貸的利率還有他們巧立名目很多啊他們巧立什麼違約金啦手續費貸辦費自納金講一大堆反正他就是高利貸就對了"},{"start":7244.894,"end":7264.282,"text":"那我認為利息也必須限制否則現在的亂象現在亂象到什麼程度他們公然跟貸款人說你去成立假的公司或者做假的買賣契約為什麼要做假的買賣契約假的買賣契約比比皆是因為"},{"start":7265.612,"end":7293.839,"text":"這些租賃公司 鼠貓三兄弟他要規避民法的重力罪要規避重力罪所以他就假的買賣契約所以一大堆的不必要的亂象跑了出來所以我認為當然在業務上要做對他們的除了行政監督也要做業務監督然後很重要的業務監督就是不得對第三人吹嗅也不得"},{"start":7295.099,"end":7314.758,"text":"委請討債公司那個那個 催收這一點非常重要這一點我甚至認為他們債權移轉都還必須主管機關同意否則他找討債公司他說我沒有違法啊我不知道他討債公司啊他說"},{"start":7315.479,"end":7329.541,"text":"我是轉 移轉債權的我販賣我這個債權欸 債權的移轉不需要債務人同意他不必告訴你債務人他債權人就 債權本來就可以移轉啦所以他移轉給他"},{"start":7331.188,"end":7354.645,"text":"討債公司所以各位我很沉動的舉出簡簡單單講這一些我要說的就是說台灣價值裡面除了我們有平等的工作權平等的教育權以外我們每一個國民要有平等的借貸權才對嘛照說借貸的業務光明磊落銀行來借才對啊銀行如果說"},{"start":7356.307,"end":7368.159,"text":"你的信用不好你沒有抵押品你出出社會的話你是消費性貸款的話可以你可以限制金額嘛你可以提高利率嘛"},{"start":7369.356,"end":7392.879,"text":"貸款給需要者 本來就是銀行的責任啊銀行怎麼可以假借那一大堆理由假借那一大堆理由以後 結果放款了五千億光是薯條三兄弟就五千億大家想想看 這是多可怕 多麼可惡的罪行啊所以我希望 金管會醒一醒"},{"start":7393.94,"end":7418.85,"text":"銀行歸金管會管未來我認為這些融資租賃公司也應該歸金管會管金管會才有專業的金融監理人員你們才拿這些可惡的金融怪獸你才拿他們有辦法但是要有辦法之前我們就真的要先立這個辦法這個辦法就是融資租賃公司管理法好 謝謝主席好 謝謝黃偉銀"},{"start":7421.551,"end":7427.658,"text":"博法院 下面請台大的陳教授 陳兆鴻 陳教授 歡迎請"},{"start":7442.001,"end":7470.368,"text":"主席各位委員各位長官各位先進大家好我是台灣大學陳兆宏那因為我們有簡報我就簡單就是分享一些想法這樣就是剛剛聆聽各位委員就是有參考這個草案的一些相關規定那我想的想法以下有幾點第一個就是我們首先可能需要思考一下到底我們是要規範什麼東西那其次就是我們設定的不管是用像金管會提案用金融消防法或是說用專法的方式到底有沒有辦法能力去達到那個政策目標所以從這個角度我有幾點想法"},{"start":7470.988,"end":7492.937,"text":"首先就是如果是怕的是廣義的先不管他到底叫什麼融資公司倒閉的話那其實如果是銀行之所以高規約管制是因為他其實收存款那如果這些借錢的公司如果沒有收存款那其實他倒閉的話其實是害到自己的股東所以其實是公司法跟證交法的問題其實如果擔心的說是比如說貸款"},{"start":7493.717,"end":7522.379,"text":"太容易比如說跟他山盜猴子或是比如說20萬的二手摩托車可以貸到50萬那我想更深層的問題是應該研究一下為什麼為什麼這家公司願意在這種情況下貸款如果這個問題沒有解決其實大家也不知道為什麼後面會發生這些事情那這個東西其實就反映出貸款的兩個面向第一個就是借款是合約合約一定就有雙方至少會有兩方所以一定會有貸款方跟借款方那借錢這個事情唯一的風險就是信用風險"},{"start":7522.879,"end":7538.741,"text":"所以借錢的人為什麼他願意在單包品價值不高的情況下願意貸款我想這是根本上在市場上必須去參考的原因那如果反過來講有些借款的人其實為什麼願意這種情況下貸款也許他是真的缺錢也許他就是想騙"},{"start":7539.662,"end":7559.153,"text":"但是因為借錢這事情本身就有它天然的交易限制如果借錢人都不care他都不在乎人家的單包品值不值他願意貸那為什麼法律上需要介入這麼多他到底原理在哪裡我想這是在市場面我們必須做更深入研究的地方那其次剛剛也有很多委員或是先進有提到詐騙的問題那我想如果"},{"start":7559.833,"end":7579.655,"text":"融資公司本身就是詐騙集團,那我們原本詐騙相關法律,包括刑法、洗錢防治法,之前去年通過的打詐司法,原本就應該有CRE的一個機制,對不對?但如果他不是詐騙集團的一部分,意思就是他沒有勾結的狀況,他就是比如說某個受害人因為被騙,所以跟他借錢,他也借了,"},{"start":7580.276,"end":7598.529,"text":"那這高概率到最後也拿不出錢來那這種情況下這些公司事實上也可能是受害者對不對所以單純因為這樣的原因到底有多少原因是他們自己因為是詐騙集團還有現行法治到底夠不夠我想是需要再思考的問題那接下來有些規範的理由主要是因為大家覺得客戶可能會被"},{"start":7599.489,"end":7613.999,"text":"剝削 有這種借貸剝削的可能性那這事實上也不是沒有發生過類似的事情像美國刺激房貸級就有類似的概念只是人家是透過銀行的方式那我想有幾點是大家通常關注的地方第一個是高利貸或是利率太高的部分那首先"},{"start":7614.899,"end":7643.372,"text":"我國就高利貸的部分原本就有一些法律規定民法205條有規定上限定在16%我唸書的時候還是20%刑法有重力罪的問題所以如果原本就沒有一些法律限制就是就有設上限的情況那我的問題是我們是不是應該尊重一下市場機制我舉一個例子台灣因為有設重力罪上限所以信用卡的循環利息一定要在16%以下超過的話基本上是違法啦法律上也不會有效但是我剛剛隨便翻了兩個銀行譬如說星展在新加坡"},{"start":7644.032,"end":7671.125,"text":"在新加坡的行展不是台灣的行展它的信用卡循環利息是25%香港的東亞銀行是35%比起來我們算很小額的那反過來講在有些情況下信用貸款本來就會利息高為什麼循環利息會高無擔保債務而且很明顯的就是因為已經沒有付捲持繳費所以信用風險高 利率高是正常的那另外一個可能大家討論的是說是不是有一些定型化契約或不公平的一些條款"},{"start":7672.566,"end":7693.321,"text":"那我們當然也不否認其實在定義化契約的情況下其實業者有時候會有一些不公平的條款或是設計一些很奇怪的一些交易機制那我想這個原本也不是無法可管我們民法有一些機制公平交易法或甚至一些金融消費法其實都有些設置的機制那剛剛有先進或是草原有提到可以利用比如說定義化契約或是說那個消費法第十一條的什麼就是"},{"start":7694.582,"end":7722.381,"text":"因記載不得記載事項那我要強調就是說定型化契約有定型化契約處理的方式事實上不用任何法律規定行政院其實也公佈數十個上百個定型化契約範本這幾乎沒有一個是有法律源頭的金管會本身也有相當一些範本所以透過這些範本透過消化法機制某程度可以處理一些那除此之外根據信貸的部分有些是不當推銷別人的信用那我們不否認這可能是問題但它根本在於說這個借錢人是不是需要考慮一下"},{"start":7724.215,"end":7738.243,"text":"借款人本身的比如說適當性是不是有做適當的一些資訊揭露那另外一個大家可能討論比較多是不當催收的問題但不當催收如果涉及真的有非法行為那原本就有刑法的機制可以處理那如果"},{"start":7739.324,"end":7761.097,"text":"不是到違法的程度到底哪些是那種比如說Best Practice那我想回歸的重點就是說針對借貸這個專業的規範其實現在看起來它並沒有很明顯很多審慎規範的需求大部分其實還在行為規範面上面我們現在觀察到的問題所以在這個基礎上我想要提的問題就是說就算訂專法到底能夠解決多少問題是不是訂了就不會有這個事情那反過來講"},{"start":7762.157,"end":7781.617,"text":"從金管會的角度其實現在透過經銷保的方式透過修訂資保事實上某程度可以大幅取決就是解決很多我們現在不管是不公平條款透過行為官方的方式去限制它的比如說利率啊資訊揭露對客戶的適當性的判斷甚至公平交易我覺得可以圖弄一個適當的法律基礎那在這個基礎上"},{"start":7783.498,"end":7804.851,"text":"也許跟剛剛有些委員的意見不同但是我個人是覺得在這個基礎上我們先看清楚市場到底在幹嘛再一步一步來觀察我們需不需要更大規模的擴大法律規範的力道我覺得這個在立法社策略上是一個比較值得思考的方向以免有掛一漏萬最後回到一個主要宏觀的問題我有參考一下民間版"},{"start":7805.751,"end":7825.146,"text":"就是融資法的討案但是我想借貸這個活動其實有很廣泛性有幾個名字長得很像但是其實概念不一樣的概念我們傳統講借貸其實是借錢是loan但是放售性跟融資其實並不限於借貸比如說融資性租賃剛剛汪汪有提到就是假買賣真借款但它也有可能真的就是"},{"start":7826.73,"end":7851.554,"text":"借錢來買東西最後租賃這種叫融資性租賃然後廣義而言為什麼當鋪要排除雖然我們有當鋪業法但為什麼如果當鋪就是融資業為什麼不應該歸金管會管然後傳統的合會算不算會不會進入這個融資的打擊範圍事實上就是因為有各種不同融資管道甚至有包括一些是個人借貸有些就是有錢有錢家族專門負責借給鄰居也說不定那我想"},{"start":7852.414,"end":7873.913,"text":"總統宏觀而言我們應該更就是立法上或是說政策上需要做更多的規範影響評估比如說我們有了不管任何的法律規範對普惠金融有什麼影響我們現在想的是詐騙但是會不會有真的需要借到錢的人沒辦法從現在看起來可能不黑不白的融資公司借到錢最後反而真的去低價錢莊借這樣對我們的社會是不是好的"},{"start":7874.714,"end":7900.607,"text":"還有對特定族群 比如說BMPL很明顯的大概只有30歲以下的會用我們大家想像60歲以上用BMPL這大概可信性不高這些我想都需要做一些更廣泛性的規範影響評估如果要制定專法的話我個人是建議我們需要有更廣泛性市場不光只針對詐騙或一些不良行為需要針對整體的借貸市場對經濟的影響來做更審慎的評估以上是一些意見 謝謝大家"},{"start":7904.964,"end":7910.895,"text":"好 謝謝陳教授的發言下一位請古律師發言請"},{"start":7926.944,"end":7950.371,"text":"主席委員還有各位來賓大家好我是古祥宜律師我雖然是律師但是我今天發言的主軸會跟剛剛有幾位學者我前一位陳教授或者跟學者會比較接近我要談的主題比較是在立法的一些策略上的一些思考立法技術的問題"},{"start":7962.104,"end":7975.002,"text":"剛剛總結剛剛在講融資公司現行的實務爭議我大概可以把它歸納成兩點一個是有關信用的過度擴張那一個是融資公司相關的消費爭議那信用過度擴張剛剛大家提了很多的包括這個"},{"start":7976.764,"end":8001.049,"text":"提供的這個誘導性的融資透過不當的一個宣傳那使得過度的超代的放款亂象那這種放款亂象呢造成了年輕人的悲哉以債養債衍生的社會問題那另外在消費爭議上也包括利息的違約金過高那有一些隱藏性的費用或者資訊揭露不足那包括說消費者他不知道說他要簽他要支付高額的手續費或者簽了共牌本表"},{"start":8003.229,"end":8016.336,"text":"那甚至有詐騙集團來跟融資公司的業務員勾結所以我在看整個我們的立法的背景其實是要處理這樣的一個爭議問題那接下來就是說那我們要怎麼在立法那立法上有所謂的我們要如何納管"},{"start":8018.757,"end":8043.778,"text":"那我也呼籲一下剛剛這個淡江的這個聶教授所說的我們看國外的法制如果我們超一半那另外我們再基於說大家都是好意的出發為了這個比如說消費者的保護你再增加了他的一些規管但是可能他的後果是非常的嚴重所以在立法的話我們應該要更周延的去思考不同的面向那基本上我是肯定說我們現階段先用"},{"start":8045.519,"end":8068.99,"text":"公告的方式我們把它納入金融消費者保護法所定的金融服務業就是現在金管會在推的那長期上我覺得立專法這個是可以來推動也可以來思考的只是說我們在立專法的時候我們要考慮很多的面向因為畢竟融資公司這個融資行為的太陽是一個很複雜的那到底如果我們要立一個法它必須含括哪些融資的太陽剛剛也講了銷金跟契金的性質上是有差異的"},{"start":8072.952,"end":8096.906,"text":"那另外我看這個法案立委的版本也都會提到其實要把P2P的這個金融中介放進去但是如果要再把這部分放進去那也很複雜因為畢竟P2P它是一個金融中介的一個業者你所要歸管它現在它也自己去成立的一個工會它的歸管的重點是完全不一樣的那因為你要歸管說它金手的話那它的這個金手的"},{"start":8097.566,"end":8113.454,"text":"精油要怎麼保管而不是他自己在放蛋那這個在法律上的技術如何把不同的太陽第一個應該考慮我們是不是要把它放進同一個法律那放進同一個法律的話你又要怎麼樣把它區別不同的特性來做不同的規範"},{"start":8114.594,"end":8128.115,"text":"另外在立專法的話我們還要考慮到說剛剛也提了會不會壓抑了一些使得本來在檯面上可以借到錢的話它變成更地下化了反而造成其他的問題或者甚至損及了"},{"start":8129.878,"end":8159.278,"text":"基本上我們對普惠金融的需求這是納管以後所帶來的衝擊那另外在監理架構上剛剛也提到的有所謂監理量能的問題那我這邊要特別強調其實所謂的行業納管它用哪種強度的納管其實法律上它可能包括是採一個特許的方式就嚴格的一個核准制或者一個許可制或者一個登記制或者只是要求說業者你必須加入工會就是所謂的用自律來管理"},{"start":8160.018,"end":8181.738,"text":"那這邊我覺得用不同的方式都是可以思考的那也提到說剛剛有提到融資公司它本身它不是收受存款的業務所以它的重點應該是在行業行為面的管理而不是去拉高這個行業的門檻使得這個行業要進入的困難那它進入的話你要鼓勵它進入但是進入的話你要管理"},{"start":8182.378,"end":8193.873,"text":"那另外還有很多的包括說我們今天自然人以後自然人他如果從事的放款業務我們在我們的法律上我們要如何把它定性那我們這個執照呢有沒有更新的問題以及罰則的問題這都是在立法的時候應該思考的面向那我們回過頭來看當鋪業啊"},{"start":8200.922,"end":8221.869,"text":"其實我們大家去想想看其實我們是有當鋪業法的當鋪業法它也是一個融資那今天在講過去當鋪業法怎麼管那如果我們今天立了一個法律跟當鋪業法的關係是什麼監理嚴格程度的差別是什麼那我先說當鋪業法其實大家看法規它主管機關其實是中央的內政部那地方的這個"},{"start":8223.169,"end":8230.018,"text":"地方為地方的市政府那業者他是減負申請書來向地方的這個當地主管機關來申請酬赦"},{"start":8232.396,"end":8258.287,"text":"那大家會講到國外制度那我看今天大概只有我去整理這個國外制度那我剛剛呼應了說如果我們超國外超一半是很辛苦的那我們講了很多日本的制度但是事實上我們看國外制度你會先區分其實國外在考慮融資公司的納管他第一個大部分都只針對小金來管好像這個英國啊歐盟這是針對小金的那"},{"start":8259.647,"end":8280.294,"text":"也不一定是有金融主管機關那像日本日本它其實是一個事前登記的一個制度日本香港都不是有金融主管機關因為如果日本的話金融是金融廳嘛那日本不是那其他因為今天不會再仔細講那大概不同國家有不同的一個規範那大部分都是會採這個登記制比較少是採嚴格的許可制"},{"start":8284.694,"end":8302.145,"text":"那比如說日本的話 那我們日本說貸金業法那它也是 它是跟誰 這邊它才它包括 應該規範的範圍 規範範圍它有做法律一個定義那包括進行金錢借貸或者仲借的金錢借貸"},{"start":8302.825,"end":8325.111,"text":"看得出來日本它規範的範圍雖然是寬的但是它對這個市場的准入呢它其實是比較便捷的它是用一個註冊登記的方式那誰可以來註冊呢是包括公司及個人的商號都可以那它向誰註冊呢其實地方如果是在地方營業的話你是向這個地方的這個類似我們的市政府啦就是它的這個"},{"start":8326.792,"end":8347.854,"text":"區道省 這裡我們舉了一個例子 比如說他是跟大阪跟大阪去申請 地方行政首長申請那如果跨的話 他是向財務省 關東財務局那他是一個有每三年更新的部分所以今天跟我們講日本的行為規範我們要看說日本他到底是用什麼樣一個監理制度我覺得可能要把這個面向拉高一起來看"},{"start":8349.987,"end":8362.182,"text":"所以這看得到日本他目前大概最新的資料到2025年的話登記的業者在1000多家那如果是像財務局中央登記的是256個那另外他有一些行為規範"},{"start":8365.501,"end":8394.06,"text":"因為今天時間比較趕那我要回應這個問題我覺得立專法的目的它其實是在解決信用過度擴張以及消費爭議的問題但是在解決這個問題的前提下我們要同時來考量你是避免立法的不當來扼殺民間的這個生機因為畢竟剛剛也提了很多包括今天融資公司的行為除了這個一般的消費金融它包括企業的這個金融部分那現在很多的這個"},{"start":8395.361,"end":8421.534,"text":"包括現在其實很多我遇到一些案子現在買的這個房子尤其買預收屋現在歷齡交務的時候交易交務的時候現在因為銀行去緊縮了房貸他借不到錢了他突然借不到錢了那他該要怎麼處理那這個如何在管制的時候也能夠立法能夠兼顧這個民間的這個經濟發展我覺得也是很重要的所以立法的討論應該要更細緻來力求周全那以上"},{"start":8424.892,"end":8427.708,"text":"好 下一位請李坤成委員請發言"},{"start":8439.608,"end":8456.013,"text":"謝謝主席那謝謝今天初列席的專家學者還有我們的機關代表那今天我們這個公聽會是這個農事公司法的討論那這其實可以追溯到這個2023年網路爆紅的這個動畫影片三道猴子的一生講述年輕人透過"},{"start":8456.833,"end":8479.461,"text":"融資租賃公司所推出的這個先買後付的服務無卡分期付款購車最後無力償還以債養債的杯葛那在2023年年底呢逢甲大學也爆出了近百名學生的檢入無卡分期的詐騙案那這一類新興借貸模式呢是由不肖業者跟融資租賃公司簽約提供呢先買後付的服務慫恿消費者以無卡分期來購買車輛3C等產品衍生諸多爭議亂象那其實在去年跟今年"},{"start":8485.863,"end":8499.734,"text":"經管會其實也對我來做專案報告過那本席先提出一些制度面的漏洞那其實剛剛專家學者也大部分都提過了第一個就是說公司法第15條的漏洞那這樣子呢"},{"start":8500.655,"end":8514.528,"text":"公司法第15條禁止非銀行業者從事無擔保放款但是融資業者利用假擔保品的名目規避規定那實質上是高利放款那第二個呢融資公司沒有納入聯合徵信的體系然後呢"},{"start":8518.571,"end":8535.989,"text":"導致借款人多頭借貸也沒有辦法被金融體系即時辨識與管控造成債務人陷入以債養債的惡性循環第三 沒有專法來管理融資公司運作還有代辦業務所以今天我們要討論融資公司法"},{"start":8536.75,"end":8557.201,"text":"那其實監察院也注意到這個問題了所以在今年的四月份監察院有糾正財政部不過監察院糾正財政部主要是說公股銀行以低於民銀行的利率大量增加放緩給融資租賃公司那成為輿論質疑說融資租賃公司利差過大的因素"},{"start":8557.921,"end":8583.442,"text":"那這是糾正的主要原因但是呢監察院提到說今年來融資註定業者以先買後付中古車貸款等融資方式引起國人購買各類型的商品那也造成說大量年輕人甚至學生以此類的模式進行消費那除了引起財務問題之外呢產生過度消費的疑慮所以呢監察院也要求了行政院"},{"start":8584.802,"end":8602.707,"text":"確實評估訂定融資租賃公司的專法還有指定業務機關的可行性那其實金管會也算是有正面的回應那這個從這個主委的談話來提到說這個會透過這個金融消費者保護法就是金保法"},{"start":8603.647,"end":8619.517,"text":"分三階段的納管這個融資租賃公司最快是在8月底上路第一階段是4家上市櫃的公司然後第二階段是國營轉投資的14家租賃公司第三階段是所有租賃公會的會員"},{"start":8621.098,"end":8646.46,"text":"那但是呢這也會造成一些原因就是說如果你是用這個金保法來講的話其實剛剛先進也都提過金保法當時的這個產生的原因是因為衍生性金融商品的購買糾紛那如果說你要讓他來這個解決目前這個融資租賃的一些相關的一些爭議的話那恐怕這個是這個沒有這個真正針對這個藥方"},{"start":8648.081,"end":8665.691,"text":"所以金寶法或許可以作為暫時過渡的一個措施但是絕對不是長久之計長久之計本席還是認為說應該要制定專法但專法要怎麼樣制定我想專家學者也有提出非常寶貴的一些建議那我也再提到就是說"},{"start":8668.124,"end":8695.962,"text":"監察院他也提到如果是按照目前金管會所提出來這個三階段的這個納管那有可能這個會造成說這個有相同就是規模比較小的這些融資租賃公司他們承作融資業務屬性相近但是呢他並沒有納管造成相同業務那相同風險具有不同監理的情況那所以呢是不是應該要有這一個相關的配套措施那本席也認為說"},{"start":8697.842,"end":8713.108,"text":"目前有一些造成一些爭議性的一些原因在此那是不是有一些可以及時先來做的呢第一個就是說是不是先建立一個融資公司的聯合爭議性的一個系統然後避免說這個"},{"start":8715.149,"end":8743.739,"text":"借款人其實已經有借貸了但是呢這個租賃公司他也沒有去查那造成說這個債務人他變成以債養債那是不是可以先建立一個聯合的一個徵信的系統那第二個呢那是不是我們要透過這個融資透明申報制度然後明確揭示借貸利率的手續費然後禁止變相的高額代辦費的剝削然後第三呢那是不是我們要補強公司法的相關的規定"},{"start":8744.959,"end":8760.717,"text":"避免假買賣增借貸的一個漏洞那本席也是建議說這個金保法它雖然是這個在目前為止是專法出來之前的一個過渡的一個時期但是呢畢竟如果還是要這個"},{"start":8762.258,"end":8782.011,"text":"長治久安來解決這相關的問題還是以立專法為優先那至於要怎麼立 怎麼樣的完善我相信透過今天的公聽會這個金管會應該會有更多一些啟示那以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝李委員的發言現在請李燕秀委員發言 請"},{"start":8791.065,"end":8810.73,"text":"感謝昭偉我要再次跟在現場說產官學界感謝大家這個公聽會也特別感謝昭偉今天舉辦這樣的公聽會事實上在金管會在4月底4月23號已經針對於12家租賃公司未來適用金保法第三條第一項金融服務業務"},{"start":8811.65,"end":8814.471,"text":"未來無論是應收賬款還有包括收買分期付款的買賣或相關的融資性的業務都是用金保法的規定我們也預計在八月底九月最慢的九月底消費者跟十二家融資公司進行業務往來未來都有機會獲得更充分的保障這是我們金管會的一小步但是"},{"start":8835.676,"end":8849.269,"text":"這確是我們金融消費業者的保護對於消費者的保護 落實我們普惠金融很重要的一步 一大步我們目前台灣有超過8000多家業者從事應收賬款的買賣包括分期付款買賣 或者是具類似融資性業務相關的業務我們也期待未來金管會 未來能夠擴大金保法適用業者的數量"},{"start":8860.399,"end":8863.502,"text":"因為這一次你們分三個層次只有12家未來提供消費者未來可以適用擴大服務的相關的一些業者那至於未來是不是要訂定專法對於整個租賃業的樣態進行規範"},{"start":8876.573,"end":8885.199,"text":"我了解的是我們目前金管會會委託評估研究甚至會累積監理的經驗採取雙軌並行的方式來進行所以除了委託銀行公會針對專法進行研究評估報告外我們也會持續累積監理的經驗作為未來專法的依據"},{"start":8896.926,"end":8921.376,"text":"在這邊我非常肯定彭主委跟包括整個經管會對於無論是跟產官學界的溝通還有跟這個工會的溝通也都非常充分讓我們這一次在訂定經保法的過程當中其實我們的時程掌握得非常的順利未來我們也希望經管會在制定專法的過程當中可以多傾聽銀行業者包括租賃業者消費者"},{"start":8925.478,"end":8930.219,"text":"學界的聲音這四大塊的聲音特別是從事營收賬款的買賣還有包括分期付款買賣還有包括具類似融資業務的樣態我們大家都知道其實非常非常的多八千多家的業者服務的樣態其實非常非常的廣泛特別是業者的經營方式有時候時常跟著大環境的變化時常在轉變"},{"start":8950.044,"end":8963.609,"text":"所以又有超過8000多家的業者未來如何用一部專法來進行通案的管理恐怕需要有更多的規劃跟評估所以這絕對不是只有一場我們的公聽會未來我也期待金管會也好或者是產官學界大家可以多辦幾場不同的公聽會立法院當然也可以多辦可以廣納更多的意見來制定專法"},{"start":8978.155,"end":8983.121,"text":"這樣未來八千多家業者相關業態的業者都進入納管我們的規範才有機會更完整所以在現階段我有三個期許跟盼望第一個就是金管會未來能擴大金保法的納管的範圍包括租賃公會的業者"},{"start":8996.838,"end":9008.423,"text":"未來是不是都能夠納入監理讓我們的消費者可以有更多的保障對於主動願意納入金保法規範的租賃業者我覺得我上一次也提過金管會應該認證或公告告訴消費者"},{"start":9012.245,"end":9027.104,"text":"他們有加入我們金寶法的規範他們是乖寶寶好學生我覺得這個對消費者也有一定的保障所以副主委在這邊點頭我覺得好寶寶乖學生有更多的保障是我們在金寶法規範的範圍我們就讓消費者知道有需求有需要"},{"start":9027.805,"end":9043.583,"text":"就應該盡量找他們這樣也會讓還沒有加入的業者更願意加入那第二點我的期望就是未來融資公司在乘坐個人金融業務的時候恐怕都會更謹慎那很多業務他們可能就不願意"},{"start":9044.79,"end":9066.723,"text":"意願不會那麼高 不願意做那我們更擔心的是會不會有一些消費者轉向地下金融的借貸反而地下金融的借貸特別在整個財務不太好的時候很多地下金融的借貸方式就會興起會不會有更多的金融的風暴跟風險這個恐怕是金管會要"},{"start":9067.583,"end":9094.912,"text":"告訴我們要怎麼預防這個是第二點我希望我提出來這三點你們都可以用書面的回應我那第三個對於首批納管的12家租賃業者我也期待大家可以用更健康的心態來看待金保法的監管有更明確的法律規範不僅也可以鼓勵公司內部加強內控的機制更可以洗刷外界就是一竿子打翻所有人的污名跟誤解"},{"start":9096.492,"end":9117.487,"text":"創造未來創造業者消費者跟政府的三贏是我這三點我覺得我們應該想辦法去做的那我這三點是不是也可以拜託金管會告訴我未來我們怎麼預防那我們怎麼樣加強那做得好的或者是在金管會納管的我們是不是要讓外界知道那怎麼樣防避有一些"},{"start":9118.468,"end":9139.262,"text":"轉到地下去做地下的這個借貸那你們怎麼去做這些房幣因為有一些很就是有一些他們可能不願意做那未來銀行業要不要做那你們會不會鼓勵做他們不願意做的話那銀行業是不是要協助做有這些需求恐怕都是我希望你們可以回復我的地方謝謝好 謝謝李委員的發言下一位請"},{"start":9147.196,"end":9149.42,"text":"云蒙祥教授"},{"start":9161.136,"end":9183.424,"text":"主席以及各位大家好,那以下就受邀來參加融資公司法工聽會所以以下就針對於今天的這個設定的提綱跟相關議題來做幾個簡單的報告跟分享那我的報告大概是這邊,那因為報告比較多所以我想應該不太有時間完整的把它說明白但是盡量把剛剛所收集到的一些專家學者的議題以及我們會關注到的議題簡單跟各位做相關的說明"},{"start":9184.344,"end":9199.099,"text":"那第一個是為什麼會有融資公司法的相關出現其實代表的就是我們需要有一定的族群他可能需要資金可是在既有的這個金融體系裡面可能沒有辦法能夠取得所以從我們在當時97年那個時候在立法院做的這個評估報告裡面來說"},{"start":9200.98,"end":9218.908,"text":"來對照一下我們目前現在可能產生出來的融資公司的亂象大概好像有點不太一樣因為報告一開始就開宗明義針對於中小企業等這些企業的部分應該要去做什麼樣資金上面的融通那當時在公司法15條相關的一個規定所以那個時候為了解開公司法15條的相關限制所以那時候會有融資公司法相關的處理"},{"start":9219.628,"end":9237.416,"text":"所以他跟現在113年目前在立法院所看到的版本呢可能在時空背景上就有點不太一樣的地方那第一個問題就不幸要問大家請問那個時空背景所產生出來的一些立法的那個我們對於那個法規的那個適用上面的溝通跟那個容溝啊那個鴻溝啊有沒有已經產生解決的問題"},{"start":9238.456,"end":9256.466,"text":"所以我們到底是要以這一個中小企業來做我們要去做融資公司融資對象還是個人這是第一個我們必須要處理到的事因為日本的貸金業法它同時包括兩個可是兩個的規定不太相同所以這一點事實上可能要把它做分開的一個地方這是第一個跟各位解惑的地方所以這是我們當時所看到的版本的一個解答"},{"start":9256.826,"end":9272.999,"text":"那這個部分我就先跳過去因為這個涉及到的是跟金融科技相關的一些議題跟內容上那這個部分在日本的貸金業我的這個報告裡面的後半部有去做了一些相關的規定那這個我就把它先暫時的先做這個跳過那另外一個部分是在資金的一個引導上我們必須要去"},{"start":9274.581,"end":9300.16,"text":"盤整一下我們目前先要有資金的部分所以以正規金融的銀正寶來說它有資金上面融資的地方可是我們還有一個底層金融的儲蓄物資社跟所謂的信用合作社它還是可以去做相關資金的提供所以如果能夠引導部分的融資公司所服務的對象能夠回到我們既有底層金融體系裡面的金融的引導來做處理時這也是必須要去思考到的地方因為既有的工具我們先能做"},{"start":9300.56,"end":9321.11,"text":"然後做到能夠讓我們的消費者的權益能夠獲得保障時接下來才是我們在看到未來在專法上是不是能夠把沒有去涵蓋到的漏洞去把它補足我覺得這是一個立法過程中可能大家可能要去思考到的點OK那以下就是進入第二點就是我們在看到日本貸金業法的相關改正的背景所以我們把紅色的字跟藍色的字都去做了mark這個大概是幾個我們在"},{"start":9323.091,"end":9341.901,"text":"參考日本相關規定時他必須要做的地方所以包含高利率過度貸款跟相關的這個容易啊這個拿到相關的這個貸款這個款項所以他忽略那個利息相關的能力以及這款人的缺乏金融知識和計劃我這邊必須要以學者的身份提出在日本的金融的歷年來改革"},{"start":9342.321,"end":9359.388,"text":"他都會跟金融教育是非常銜接在一起的所以他在每一個像自律組織相關的公司都得要做金融教育上面的提醒所以我剛後半部就整理了一下他是怎麼提醒在我們的金融消費者要如何的去適用這個貸金業法相關的規定所以我想這個是這樣來的"},{"start":9360.208,"end":9381.113,"text":"OK那我想這邊的內容我就整理給大家所以這是簡單的幾個圖在年收入的幾分之幾哪一些是受到限制例外可以不受限制的範圍是什麼該怎麼樣去做還款以及該怎麼樣去做相關信用的制度所以剛剛有非常多的現金去提到是不是應該要去嫁接目前在金融機構所使用的信用平等或相關的一個信用徵信制度沒錯"},{"start":9381.713,"end":9408.213,"text":"但問題是如果他能夠嫁接到我們既有的信用制度時各位要回想到一個問題如果他能夠在我們的信用制度裡面可以在金融機構借到款項他何必去找這些款項來借呢這是一個問題點嘛所以這個既有的信用制度是來幫助我們去了解到他應該是應該什麼樣子的一個內容以避免他在金融機構跟在非金融機構的時候可能會有不同的這個表現所以我們在嫁接相關制度時應該是提供一個參考"},{"start":9409.494,"end":9427.746,"text":"那至於上下限的這個規定呢事實上來講是可以經過討論的因為如果沒有這些相關的這個制度去作為進行這些人可能在既有金融體制拿不到錢的時候他應該怎麼辦這也是我們必須要在這邊做思考的一個相關的點所以在日本貸金業法相關的規定呢那他會有准入條件的嚴格啦"},{"start":9428.126,"end":9449.686,"text":"自立規範的要求以及相關禁止行為的一些內容我想這邊就整理給大家包含到利率上面的限制還款的限制跟相關的處理我想我都盡量的把相關的資料提供給各位專家還有我們的主管機關去供參考這個部分在後半部做制定時大家可以去思考到的地方那再來另外一個部分是如果從貸金業法相關的規定上面來說其實他們是在"},{"start":9450.146,"end":9468.548,"text":"做紫色的字叫做補充融資需求的內容所以其實他們的制度很簡單他不是做主要的放款的這個業務他是在補充所以這一塊就必須要跟我們剛剛所說的你必須去盤點目前在我國正規金融跟其他的底層金融上到底哪一些人是應該把事實的引到那邊去的一個問題"},{"start":9469.289,"end":9485.664,"text":"所以第二部分大概就針對於我們的日本的代金業有關相關的規定去做了幾個事情那因為實用上面的不足我提供三點這個業法上面規範是以日本來說第一個業務的這個萎縮量非常大所以會造成他們的業者呢在後半部的經營呢可能會遇到了一些這個麻煩"},{"start":9487.045,"end":9512.126,"text":"那第二個部分呢他們越來越發現到年輕的族群會是使用非常多比較科技的東西所以他們也轉往了科技的東西來做相關的這個貸款但是也不能夠完整的從那個地方去了解到他們的整個信用跟相關的狀況所以那一塊的使用上也會產生出一些問題第三個就是後繼者那代表就是說沒有人願意要去承接這個目前既有的這些組織後續該怎麼去進行的事這個是在日本呢"},{"start":9512.406,"end":9534.218,"text":"我們匯整了在大概他們的統計資料裡面所看到的這些事情那我想因為時間上面的因素就不去做任何的就是細部了所以這個在消費者的款項上跟一些處理上大概都會遇到的這些麻煩點那這個也是未來如果要訂定專法時大家可能要去了解到的一些基本的問題否則這個時候我們這個已經日本有相關的一些經驗上該怎麼去做的進行"},{"start":9534.818,"end":9554.948,"text":"那最後一個部分是在詐欺的部分我想沒有一個法規的訂定可以直接把所有的這個詐欺跟相關的不法行為一併的都掃蕩所以我們在制定相關專法時是不是我們應該要可能冷靜一下把相關的一些不法行為比如說這個所謂的詐欺等行為啦或者是欺騙的行為等等應該是要把它脫鉤來作為相關的處理"},{"start":9557.149,"end":9571.865,"text":"這個時候不妨可以在我們目前既有的紮卸外防制條例的相關的一些規定直接去做一些配合的一些配套這樣子或許在我們針對一些比較我們需要保護到的特殊的金融行為上能夠去達到我們的要求而不是可能在"},{"start":9572.205,"end":9593.994,"text":"未來的專法上去討論到說這個行為在專法上應該要去訂定什麼樣子的法規那這個時候就會回到我們在民國90年那時候公司法修法開啟的金融六法修法以前在不同的專法上在不同的型度上會有不同的處理點時這個時候會在規範的監理強度上會產生很大的麻煩所以這個是跟各位去報告的一些事那目前的監理措施我大概彙整了"},{"start":9594.634,"end":9609.407,"text":"整個監理的狀況之下跟專法跟目前金保法所納管的方式跟公眾的方式我大概提供幾個建議那提供建議有三第一個因為目前我們在經濟部相關的資料上應該可以知道在公司把第15條裡面所借貸的這個在章程上有規定的事情"},{"start":9609.767,"end":9628.905,"text":"事實上是可以做一些資料上面的統計所以應該是引導做量能上面的登錄跟相關的捨廢來看一下目前有多少公司去從事這些事情然後呢再來依照我們目前現在專法跟經保法上面所沒有規範的鴻溝去針對於相關的部分去作為處理那第二個經保法的設立是有它的必要性因為按照第三條第一項的規定經貿主管機關"},{"start":9629.505,"end":9646.026,"text":"指定的金融服務業他納入到金保法所規定時包含到我們的所有的KYC跟說明義務都必須要按照金保法來所以在執法上去細膩化我們今天要去做的事情這個部分是有必要性的因為如果這些人發生這件事對不起請主席再給我三四秒抱歉我把這邊講完"},{"start":9646.707,"end":9667.477,"text":"然後呢這個部分才可以在紛爭解決上產生給他一定的幫助否則這些人可能在我們在立專法的過程之中他依然沒有辦法取得我們評議中心或者是我們既有準司法體系相關的幫助所以這一點來講事實上是有非常非常大的一個相關的必要性那最後呢最後的建議就是因為目前還在專法的力挺之中該怎麼樣去把這個業去做規範"},{"start":9668.778,"end":9695.227,"text":"不妨參考我們之前在107年所努力的虛擬通貨交易所自立公約的方式以自律的方式先行再輔導以成立公會的方式然後再透過主管機關的參與把相關規定OK之後那透過了相關自律規端的一個進行時最後再透過專法的部分去做處理那金寶法的一些事實的納入可以去解決目前現在消費者產生出來的爭議那雙方做搭配的情況之下目前我覺得這是一個比較可行的方法恭喜一再用大家的時間以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":9699.471,"end":9705.057,"text":"好 謝謝民船的林教授下一位請台大的葉教授請"},{"start":9718.651,"end":9725.606,"text":"主席在座各位長官 大家好我今天當然是針對因為個人背景的因素"},{"start":9730.983,"end":9750.957,"text":"因為個人背景的因素過去在金融業也曾經在國際組織服務那現在也在做一些融資方面的這個案例那所以我想跟各位分享一下那當然剛剛其實很多人都提到了三道猴子但是事實上我們也不要忘記絆澤指數其實應該是說不要忘記絆澤指數他爸爸"},{"start":9755.24,"end":9775.418,"text":"因為借不到錢所以導致半折指數後來要去復籌對不對但是重點是在於說三道猴子代表的是一個銷金的案例那半折指數代表的是一個契金的案例那這個兩個東西可不可以把它合在一起來思考那我覺得對於這個剛剛其實有很多前輩都已經"},{"start":9776.338,"end":9800.074,"text":"包括了很多鉅細靡遺的東西那對於一個在我在當學生的時候就已經出現了一個議題那我現在已經快退休了他現在還沒有決定那我們面對這種議題的話我自己本人也必須要非常的謙虛非常的謙遜所以在這裡我只是提供一些我自己研究的一些心得來跟各位來做一些分享"},{"start":9800.902,"end":9818.18,"text":"那其實我自己最近在做一些融資租賃業的案例那當然也有契金跟小金舉個例來說因為資訊的關係我想我們不能揭露這些資訊但是你可以看到儘管剛才有很多的朋友都已經說到了"},{"start":9819.561,"end":9839.223,"text":"這個被害的案例可是其實有很多公司在接受了這個這個融資租賃了之後比如說他的營業利率在2014年營業利率跟資產報酬率都活過來了OK那但是我也要跟各位說也有不成功的案例所以同樣的道理銷金的話"},{"start":9840.677,"end":9869.506,"text":"也有成功的案例可是事實上我也知道有一些比如說社會系的老師曾經做過一些研究他收集了四五百個這個曾經被詐騙的這些案例但是我們必須要說一件事情就是我們在考慮政策或者是考慮這個甚至這個政策如何擬定法律的時候我們其實必須要把成功跟失敗的案例都納入考慮否則的話我們都只是怎麼樣只是去想壞的而不是去想好的"},{"start":9869.986,"end":9893.049,"text":"我舉個例子來說 跟這個可能沒有關係 但值得參考歐盟 剛剛其實也有律師提到了歐盟歐盟有最先進的AI法律 但是沒有最先進的AI資料庫歐盟有最先進的GDPR 但是卻沒有這些非常先進的AI公司或者是非常先進的資料庫所以如果假設我們把監管"},{"start":9894.671,"end":9912.108,"text":"那個放在第一位而不是把市場放在第一位的話那我們基本上就等於是在這個市場還沒有甚至還沒有出現的時候就把這個市場給打壓掉了那所以我個人的想法是有時候可能有人說摸著石頭過河但是"},{"start":9913.669,"end":9931.814,"text":"當你有這個市場有做出來的時候會有成功的案例會有失敗的案例當你把成功的案例跟失敗的案例合起來一起看的時候你才能得出一個比較中性不偏或者是我們用統計學的講法來說不偏的一個思維模式來思考這些案例到底該"},{"start":9932.554,"end":9957.221,"text":"怎麼去處理所以說其實舉個例來說剛剛台灣的中小企業也有很多事各位也都知道我們去對他做問卷研究的時候他其實是悶聲發大財台灣的企業都是這樣的特色當他有事的時候他會講得很大聲當他沒事的時候他就怎麼樣他就繼續努力去賺錢所以你要對他做訪談問卷非常的困難"},{"start":9959.182,"end":9975.519,"text":"但是我們還是不能忘記一件事情就是契金有成功的案例,銷金有失敗的案例但是這些案例我們都必須要綜合考量半澤直樹跟三道猴子事實上都是同樣的重要那尤其是我自己本身也是公園出身"},{"start":9976.901,"end":9992.143,"text":"有很多朋友講說我們要訂立很多很多法規啊幹嘛的但是據我自己所了解我們的金管會我們的中央銀行我們的財政部最重要的一個任務就是要防範系統性的金融風險那系統性的金融風險這件事情非常非常的重要"},{"start":9992.864,"end":10018.124,"text":"那那個當然如果假設行有餘力其實事實上我們的公務體系都蠻麻煩的以前我在陸委會上班的時候我禮拜一禮拜一到禮拜天我都在工作那我的處長問我說你怎麼禮拜天還來那我就看著他我不知道該怎麼說對不對因為你我才會來啊對不對所以那個我們其實不只是要想到電力法律的效果我們還要想到我們真的"},{"start":10019.144,"end":10036.334,"text":"要有在做很多事情的時候要有餘裕我們才能夠就是很專注的去注意我們的最重要的事情就好像現在很多人剛才談到金融消費者保護法各位都知道那是從美國的金融海嘯"},{"start":10037.395,"end":10058.713,"text":"所衍生過來的它其實並不是一個新的並不是一個舊的法律它其實非常的新它還有很多容納的空間即便各位都知道最近美國發生了一些對於這些東西甚至監管這些東西發生了一些態度上的變化但是我們這裡的話其實剛才有很多朋友也講了它還有很多"},{"start":10061.775,"end":10074.524,"text":"修正或容納的空間這個為什麼我們不把它來試試看呢剛才其實也有長官也有講到我們立這個專法的最主要的目標是什麼那我想今天的話因為其實"},{"start":10076.425,"end":10102.701,"text":"很多東西已經繼續迷移了所以我反而想要跳脫開來思考一下就跟剛剛有些老師一樣大框架的一些東西我們是要避免剝削嘛那避免剝削其實事實上如果假設各位知道在美國發生金融海嘯之後有非常多發生非常多跟我們類似的案例比如說你在借貸的時候你不需要"},{"start":10104.442,"end":10129.44,"text":"你可以自述所得你不需要任何文件就可以借到大筆的錢這種事情並不是在台灣才有的在美國的話一樣層出不窮那當然美國後來就非常限縮他的所謂的信用評比個人的這個信用指數這個點數這些事情來預防這個東西那這個東西是不是要訂專法呢當然我們就留下一個問號那第二個"},{"start":10130.56,"end":10153.162,"text":"我們訂這個法律是為了要兼顧企經嗎?中小企業的發展嗎?事實上這個問題就很重要,但是好像跟我們現在談的專法也不一定有關係。為什麼?因為有一個人,大家都知道,這個諾貝爾獎得主,他說其實美國會經濟大蕭條不是因為發生了股災,而是因為金融中介的功能喪失。"},{"start":10153.843,"end":10170.003,"text":"那金融中介的功能喪失就使得中小企業沒有辦法得到融資那當然這個中小企業得到融資這件事情不只是銀行的問題也包括了很多其他的管道那同樣的就跟我剛才所講的我們必須要很慎重的思考一件事情這個監管"},{"start":10172.213,"end":10199.9,"text":"不能夠把市場給扼殺掉OK這個是很重要的另外一個就是金融穩定那金融穩定當然我想這個在座的長官都非常清楚不過我只是舉一個可能大家現在還都沒有舉到的例子給各位參考大家都知道美國聯準會有一條叫聯邦準分法第13條他把所有的金融穩定他這一條的內容幾乎跟我們的央行法一樣長那但是無論如何他用一條就"},{"start":10200.74,"end":10215.009,"text":"解決了金融穩定這件事情那是不是一定要訂專法呢或者是一部法律呢其實事實上有些事情或許我們在一個法律既有的法律裡面加入一些條文或許就可以解決那以上報告 謝謝謝謝葉教授的發言最後為我們請本院的鍾嘉賓委員請發言請"},{"start":10233.737,"end":10260.648,"text":"謝謝主席今天的公聽會非常感謝趙偉的安排讓我們對這麼重要的民生課題邀請各界的學者專家也提供了非常精闢的見解供我們未來在修法的時候參考那今天呢我還是要來回顧一下儘管各位專家學者的分析非常到位但是呢其他的消費大眾或民眾是否能夠了解問題的嚴格為什麼會是今天這個樣子多位學者專家提到了銷金跟契金"},{"start":10262.729,"end":10287.22,"text":"融資租賃它其實有它發展的緣起後面變成債騙的冤首到底什麼原因這是我在去年7月23號針對詐騙層出不窮所寫的簡報我發現今天還是可以用來說明到底問題出在哪裡我們如何對症下藥請看下一頁其實結合融資公司的不當銷售大家常提到年輕人被無卡分期所消費所詐騙了怎麼說呢"},{"start":10289.241,"end":10310.524,"text":"照說我們年輕人的消費信用卡買個東西信用卡設定分期六期十二期很常見那怎麼可以不用信用卡就可以來分期呢其實它這裡面它是把你的購買契約轉成了一個借貸契約你本來跟他買一組化妝品跟他買一個婦夫美容的課程服務結果呢你"},{"start":10311.565,"end":10339.471,"text":"信用卡你沒有信用卡你把一些個資交給他之後他用你的名義去辦你一個信用貸款然後呢你必須分期償付給這一個銷售公司但是實質上背債的是你背了另外一個出錢借你的人的債這就是我們典型的五卡分期當中以為是購買其實是欠債這是一個消費者不清楚的情況之下他被兩個行為混淆了到底是消費還是租賃還是那個還是借貸往下看"},{"start":10340.359,"end":10367.925,"text":"接下來呢另外一個借貸轉租令受害者背了銀行信貸的債務還不知道那是怎麼情況呢我們講通常這個受害者他是要借錢但是信用不加銀行不借給他於是呢融資公司透過廣告找上了他告訴他說你的機車你拿來把我跟你購買使用權所以完全機車沒有過戶他那個用了20年的機車破破爛爛的剛剛有些人說只值3000塊"},{"start":10369.085,"end":10369.526,"text":"結果他說這個機車呢我跟你購買使用權我付你30萬"},{"start":10374.301,"end":10402.367,"text":"然後呢我把這個機車的使用權呢租給你你每個月要付我租金但是在這個情況之下受害者交了他的個人資料之後呢卻讓這個融資公司去跟銀行辦了一個信貸這個信貸的償還人是受害者可是他每個月以為他付機車的租金是付給了什麼付給了這個融資公司他巧妙的運用了其實他其實是一個借貸但是他用一個誤轉移成一個租賃的方式跟你收錢"},{"start":10403.513,"end":10424.136,"text":"但是我們把這個人換掉這是消費者我們要換掉一個企業一個營造廠他因為沒有辦法跟銀行取得大量的融資他沒辦法去購買工程機具因此他找了一個融資我們的租賃公司這個租賃公司跟他打一個合約說你這筆錢你去買了挖土機買了怪手買了起重機"},{"start":10425.598,"end":10435.277,"text":"薩斯車但是呢你設定之後設定給我那我用租賃的方式給你你每個月付我租金然後呢付完了這個就是你的了"},{"start":10436.997,"end":10461.046,"text":"有什麼不一樣 差在這個地方當時企業的時候他很清楚知道他的對象是一個融資公司他是因為借不到錢 他要買這個器具然後他用這樣的租賃方式把他的現金不足的部分解決了他並沒有欠銀行錢融資公司是用本票跟銀行取得融資之後借給他這個融資償還的風險是融資公司在承擔"},{"start":10461.986,"end":10474.35,"text":"但是在剛才的宵禁的情況之下他是個資被融資公司拿去辦理信貸為什麼他辦辦不通這個融資公司辦辦得通這就是內神通怪鬼的問題但是負債負誰的債負這個銀行的債"},{"start":10477.082,"end":10505.87,"text":"所以我們都知道融資跟租賃其實這個行業早就有了因為無法融資該用租賃的方式解決企業他的融資的需求但是到了銷經之後他確立了一個詐騙的手法使得消費者背上了不明的債務這才是我們今天遇到的詐騙的問題往下看所以今天我們看到那時候我們提出來洗錢防治法有沒有融資性租賃規範進去了他要定期查核要指定事項他要法務部來管夠嗎不夠往下看"},{"start":10506.87,"end":10532.051,"text":"現在顯然房產還說要有交易紀錄要保存交易紀錄出現了剛剛在銷經的融資租賃當中最常發現的是消費者根本不曉得自己欠了錢沒有看到租賃的合約也沒有看到什麼借貸的合約因為所有的公司所有的事情公司幫你解決了融資公司幫你解決 往下看所以後來我們看到了根據金融消費者保法第十條要錄音錄影取代了他沒有辦法出示這些契約但是這個夠不夠這個不夠"},{"start":10534.173,"end":10557.988,"text":"所以我們今天要來立法或者來修法如果是要修金融消費者保護法就必須針對現在的詐騙行為針對新興的對銷金的手法予以規則予以克犯不然的話我們現在會誤打一個範圍如果我們另另專法那專法就是特許啊納管就是一個特許嘛那麼這種借貸的行為人類有文明以來有貨幣發明以來就在借貸"},{"start":10560.109,"end":10581.502,"text":"地下錢莊要不要納管單純的借貸要不要納管所以我們在發現既有的民法的各種的法律都有對民間的金錢借貸都有一些規範但是今天把借貸跟租賃巧妙的結合來應付企業的需求這樣的一個公司絕對不會規模小可能俗稱的薯條三兄弟它就規模很大"},{"start":10582.502,"end":10595.013,"text":"這個時候要不要給他納入特許來管理這個主管機關要深思但是如果面對上千家打著類似跟薯條上東西類似的名號叫忠什麼的啦不是我的忠啦"},{"start":10596.461,"end":10624.611,"text":"那這樣的公司他只是用他跟銀行去借信貸的這樣的一個手法來詐騙消費者讓他們以為手頭的周轉不靈你可以透過拿一個物件跟我做成立一個租賃關係之後呢我就可以幫你拿到一筆錢從中扣了高行的手續費然後呢你卻背下了不明銀行的債務這個時候到底要怎麼避免消費者受害我們要審慎的來思考精準的來立法才能打擊大家所痛惡的透過消費"},{"start":10625.831,"end":10630.097,"text":"這個租賃融資的方式被詐騙的這樣的一個惡果 謝謝"},{"start":10635.335,"end":10660.986,"text":"謝謝這位委員的發言 包括委員會我們今天啊 公聽會這個所有登記的我們專家學者立委們發言全部發言結束我們現在按照原來的規劃我們就請相關的部會做回應 做回應我們首先請金管會的這個陳副主委 來請"},{"start":10668.556,"end":10685.828,"text":"是主席委員各位先進承蒙財委會召開本次的公聽會呢本會呢有三點的一個回應其實第一點其實對於我們這個問題我們是解決的目標方向是一致但是呢在手段有所不同"},{"start":10686.428,"end":10705.561,"text":"因為融資公司的爭議是最重點在於消費者的保護因為他沒有吸收存款所以重點是在放款的部分他並沒有所謂清償能力不足影響社會權益機構勢力而產生金融危機的問題所以是說因為吸收大眾資金的機構"},{"start":10706.602,"end":10727.598,"text":"如果它發生了清償能力不足或這些它會影響到存款人或整個市場所以必須列為特許的行業採高度監理而融資公司它沒有吸收大眾的資金所以在清償能力的時候是說重要但不是絕對的一個重點爭議在於"},{"start":10729.299,"end":10754.066,"text":"當的招攬為告知利率費率以及過度融資消費的保護的層面而呢國外對於我們不管是所謂他有一個法律或者法條的各部分的呢他也因為呢針對這種沒有收存款的貸放機構重點也是在於不要有過高的利率揭露收費透明禁止不當催收這是第一點"},{"start":10755.006,"end":10783.245,"text":"第二点重点在于善战者求之于事不责于人所以我们反过来我们在讲善战者求之于事不责于法其实在这个地方不管是一个交叉活网各个法律的一个交错的一个保护或者是一个专法重点在于解决问题重点在于解决问题我国是否制定融资专法的一个讨论我们说我们在讨论其实超过30年"},{"start":10784.326,"end":10804.922,"text":"在这个地方的历史20多年的复杂的问题我们现在终于踏出了第一步而其实呢还有很多部分对于融资公司的范围界定监理的量能以及呢纳缓后对于整体市场不管是迄今消经市场的这个地方的这个冲击我们呢在这个地方"},{"start":10805.382,"end":10834.021,"text":"我們真的需要做一個好好的一個評估而且目前為止我國並沒有寄存的專營放緩業務的公司我說因為公司法15條所以是說我們是不是真的要把他納入一個說給他一個執照讓有一些的所謂的非法的或者這些部分真正的說我給你一張執照就是做這個我們一個專營一個業這個是呢要一個思考而日本對於貸金業的一個管理喔這剛剛"},{"start":10835.905,"end":10836.365,"text":"金融主管機關"},{"start":10852.032,"end":10870.111,"text":"日本的一個時政剛剛也提到,在這個施行之後,其實對於放寬者他們的缺顏,不管是消費者或中小企業,取得資金的難度變高,所以某些的部分的確是轉向了一個所謂地下的一個行業。"},{"start":10871.567,"end":10888.915,"text":"第三點,所謂眾見無風,大巧不攻。也就是說,我們講真正的建樹,不是說我們要有一個法律,我們要有奪罪力,奪厲害,而是在一個所謂的修行跟巧思,我們如何透過法律、法條來處理這個問題。"},{"start":10891.036,"end":10905.639,"text":"所以我們剛剛說過融資公司的爭議在消費者的一個保護而金保法就是處理金融消費爭議強化金融消費者而訂定的專法"},{"start":10906.755,"end":10935.591,"text":"它是對於金融消費者保護的一個專法以金融保護法納管一定條件的融資註定公司在目前為止以法律位階最高此法授權明確而且得採罰還處分超到一千萬而且它能立即的適用所以比照監管嚴格的金融機構的標準所以對於金融保護金融消費者的保護"},{"start":10936.431,"end":10951.253,"text":"是有進步而周到而跨境一大步而再來呢我們在今年4月23號已經預告將12家的大型的這個公司納入試用進寶法對於外界關切的適合度商品適合度"},{"start":10951.934,"end":10971.823,"text":"融資金融不得超過交易標的物價值利率揭露不得拒絕提前清償禁止不讓吹收處理爭議機制以納入金保法的授權修訂的重點當中所以是說在目前為止向目前為止各界對於授權執法內容若需要"},{"start":10972.703,"end":10995.202,"text":"強化細緻的意見其實我們都是要解決同一個問題在目前的解決方式目前的解決方式我們當然將來持續進行但目前的解決方式我也期待各界給我們更多更好的意見對於我們弱勢禁止剝削現在在受苦的這一些民眾我們給他最好的一個保護謝謝"},{"start":10998.578,"end":11000.659,"text":"商業發展署針對今天的議題做補充報告"},{"start":11029.186,"end":11043.314,"text":"之所以會融資公司產生這樣的課題大概就像剛剛學者專家們所提的因為民眾先買後戶或是中古車貸款中古的汽車或機車貸款引發種種這些爭議那這過程當中"},{"start":11050.339,"end":11068.851,"text":"融資公司扮演在中間這個中介的角色所以如果要適度的規範剛剛陳副主委儘管陳副主委已經提到就是消費金融消費者保護法適度來介入做管理然後再來觀察後續"},{"start":11071.693,"end":11095.276,"text":"這個保護還有沒有強化的地方我們也蠻贊成如果說這個後續未來如果有立法需要在公司登記制度上面比如說公司名稱的使用或是許可之後我們來配合辦理相關的登記那這些事務我們都會一起來配合辦理"},{"start":11095.856,"end":11112.104,"text":"那至於公司法因為在規範公司上面有20條針對決算書表申報的要求有針對這個股東申報的要求22條之一那這一些我們對"},{"start":11114.165,"end":11130.199,"text":"所有公司都一起一體來做相關的要求那這部分我們也會針對農事公司如果有相關需要做比較那個請他們要求他們來落實的部分我們都會一併配合"},{"start":11131.019,"end":11157.262,"text":"至於融資公司專法在訂定之前我們在針對消費者跟融資公司各案的糾紛當中需要做債務處理的部分我們也提供消費者申訴跟協助的案子根據我們過去協處的案子裡頭大概擔保債務的案件以汽車"},{"start":11158.717,"end":11174.355,"text":"做單跑品借貸為主那所以我們就針對這個中古汽車買賣定型化系列我們也提出了修正的案子希望說在這個透過定型化系列的要求預防這個假車貸真詐騙這些情況所以我們在"},{"start":11177.739,"end":11192.005,"text":"如果有剛剛像鍾委員提到的這個企業經營者轉介貸款或融資機構這些資訊的揭露希望在這個交易過程當中能夠透過定型化企業來要求讓這個"},{"start":11193.826,"end":11222.407,"text":"提供企業經營者提供第三人貸款資訊揭露能夠更透明那這個案子目前在行政院消保處透過這個審議過程當中那未來中古汽車如果能夠順利來實施我們也會來繼續延伸檢討這個汽車買賣定型化企業是不是一定也一樣來做相同的要求所以我們大概做以上的配合補充報告謝謝"},{"start":11224.327,"end":11229.675,"text":"好 謝謝經濟部長官的發言下一位請法務部的長官聽"},{"start":11240.342,"end":11262.183,"text":"主席各位委員還有與會的學者專家還有機關代表大家好有關於剛剛我們公聽會的部分各位委員還有學者專家所表示的意見到底是就目前因為我們的融資工資現在是除了銀行法銀行保險公司當部業者以外他現在來從事放款的這個業務這邊要納管因為他"},{"start":11265.126,"end":11282.225,"text":"的融資方式呢對於借貸者有提供免保證人啊迅速撥款這些的服務那比照一般的銀行會比較寬鬆來預放款那針對這一部分剛剛學者專家提出一些必須要管控那這邊金管會呢在最近有"},{"start":11283.286,"end":11307.448,"text":"修了金保法還有紙法那這部分呢我們法務部也會提供法治的協助至於呢要不要制定專法因為這個涉及比如金管會跟經濟部對於整個業界這整個市場的整個判斷那對於他們最後的結論是說金保法的哪裡修法還要再需要再修法那我們也會協助他那至於如果制定專法的部分"},{"start":11307.848,"end":11316.599,"text":"如果金管會或是經濟部他們有提出相關的專法或其他的修法我們法務部一定會全力的協助他做法治上的協助謝謝"},{"start":11321.803,"end":11342.023,"text":"好 我們今天中間都沒有休息 也進行了快要三個小時我想做一個結論 你要發言嗎給你三分鐘好不好 你再補充三分鐘就三分鐘好不好 因為我們時間就在哪裡 對 三分鐘"},{"start":11345.887,"end":11358.84,"text":"針對官員跟一些專家的一些意見的回應第一點有關講到說契金是不是會借不到錢其實我們在銷金的部分個人的部分如果是有擔保的話以擔保的價值"},{"start":11360.382,"end":11382.455,"text":"那當然公司來借錢也是一樣但是有關銷金的部分22個月薪水我們的條文第15條第三項不適用法人不適用法人來借錢不適用第二個有關利率的部分我們20%那法人的部分是不是要高一點這個可以討論公安版的話是20 30個人是20法人是30這個倒是可以討論第三個有學術專家說我們這個負責人資格比銀行還嚴格"},{"start":11389.078,"end":11408.128,"text":"他顯然沒有看清楚我們第六條的立法局寫得很清楚我們的這些法人的資格都是引用相關銀行法守的執法規抄他們的規定他銀行法本身沒有規定那執法規寫得很清楚我們看到執法規是一樣的第四個我要講的是說大家一直在講自律自律"},{"start":11409.452,"end":11428.755,"text":"如果沒有公會還不一定會自立縱使有公會現在跟融資公司有關的在38家在這個公會裡面有2000家這怎麼自立第五個我有講過了就是說12家現在12家說九成的市佔率今晚會的報告這樣寫千里告訴我你的依據是什麼你根本沒有資料"},{"start":11429.858,"end":11446.506,"text":"第六個我要講的就是說剛才學術專家或者官員大概都有提到說如果實施了專法會不會人民借不到錢地下錢莊更嚴重他說日本就是這樣抱歉我們相關團體跟日本每年都交流"},{"start":11447.577,"end":11467.654,"text":"那我們在韓國日本台灣一直在交流一直連續的交流我們也問過這樣的問題他們貸金業法實施之後有這樣嗎沒有反而是銀行的借貸金額增加第七個剛才有人說日本的這個貸金業法是事前的申請登記沒有錯支援是這樣但是請不要忘記日本的貸金業法第六條"},{"start":11468.82,"end":11493.893,"text":"跟我們的規定一樣就是在一定的情況之下是可以拒絕登記的也就簡單講就是說你如果有暴利好債你如果有一些違反規定你是可以拒絕登記的所以這字眼叫做申請登記還是許可用語可以討論但是實質內容是一樣的另外一個點有人講說P2P是一個中介的概念沒有錯那但是我要問的是中介的概念難道"},{"start":11495.72,"end":11509.888,"text":"月收入的22倍還不過高嗎日本是三分之一的年薪就四個月而已只能信用貸款只能四個月我們是22個月最後一點我要講的是大家在講說要長期規劃然後好像是不是到底怎樣"},{"start":11510.988,"end":11529.615,"text":"如果要等到像當時候94年95年燒炭自殺全家燒炭自殺產生很多社會問題的時候才要立法那就可惜啦不要見到血才要立法我想不是這樣當時候的立法很快為什麼因為立法院要求立法院給我提出草案來所以我要我最後補充一兩句話我最後要講的就是說"},{"start":11531.091,"end":11559.308,"text":"這個部分要用行政的規定去介入但是我們沒有要扼殺這個經濟發展我們沒有扼殺氣經大家跳文好好看沒有這樣的道理但是我們要說的是這個問題我們透過拜會立法委員也好我們跟媒體的互動也好我們第一線互務也好這個問題涉問題已經很嚴重不處理不行我們的處理如果哪些地方條文不是很妥當或者立法委員不妥當都可以討論但是我覺得不立專法是不對的謝謝"},{"start":11563.631,"end":11582.169,"text":"好 謝謝喔這個要聽起來啦喔這個因為我們的立法過程這不是一個專法 新的法那麼各位律師同學知道這立法院要立一個新法除非這個新法是行政部門提出來的否則非常的困難"},{"start":11586.297,"end":11602.157,"text":"佛說非常困難 這是事實所以我做一個小結現在看起來是行政部門不立這個法 目前到現在為止他們要強化金寶法"},{"start":11603.288,"end":11625.949,"text":"那就是說我們就看金保法這一部分有什麼地方可以強化來滿足你們的需求滿足我們今天你說完全不能滿足那就沒有交集了我現在做一個結論就是說要立法我可以這麼講我可以下下禮拜我就排專法但結果進度是0"},{"start":11627.834,"end":11655.148,"text":"等於是騙自己騙大家 都沒有意義第二有個共識 起碼的共識就是你們這一部專法某種程度大部分行政部委要接受因為這是專法 新的法我要強調新的法如果你要改幾個字 舊的法改幾個字 比如說你的金寶法 現在的金寶法裡面我要改哪些部分"},{"start":11655.908,"end":11672.414,"text":"特別注重這個銷金的部分因為現在最嚴重的是銷金的企業金老實講也不是說不必了因為企業嘛企業被騙了企業怎麼樣的話它的承受能力比較大"},{"start":11673.694,"end":11695.225,"text":"個人承受能力比較小我們想保護這個我相信各位偉大的律師們你們一直在做這個事情我真的非常敬佩就是就是在乎人因為這樣子被騙因為這樣子家破人亡因為這樣子這個很多人悲劇產生我們都想幫助他"},{"start":11697.394,"end":11721.116,"text":"這個利益良善沒有人反對但是我剛說過了要這麼一個大步頭的一個修法立委們提出來的一個法要通過的困難度是非常高的這個要跟各位報告第一點第二點所以尋求跟官方的共識非常重要官方"},{"start":11722.097,"end":11747.249,"text":"常常在講說 這不一定要我老實講 我認為這個官方適度的介入而且往這個方向走 有沒有什麼不可以啊就我的態度 我今天願意排這個工地會你各位可以想啊 這個法已經提出多久了我今天願意排這個工地會就是某種程度我是認同的可是我要告訴各位殘酷的事實就是行政部門"},{"start":11748.584,"end":11774.82,"text":"不願意 你說那我就硬表決啊問題是每個委員都有這樣的公司嘛我們要打一個很大誤號啦我要打一個很大誤號所以是不是可以雖然我們的律師們不滿意但是能不能夠就現在來講我們在金寶寶這裡面能不能拿幾條可以把它強化的先改那幾條"},{"start":11776.141,"end":11791.336,"text":"先改那幾條然後同時間我們再追求這個法給他修過這是我個人的一天的小結論今天排的我當然就希望說有機會還是要過那就看我們的金管會時間不要給我們等太久"},{"start":11799.324,"end":11819.613,"text":"因為畢竟還有兩年多了這一屆還有兩年多了還是有機會的不是沒有機會等到大家都有共識了我想這個就隨他取成到目前為止這個期限是很大的好不好我做這樣的結論不知道各位有沒有所謂補充的好沒有的話"},{"start":11830.353,"end":11853.542,"text":"依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員在公聽會終結後10天內依出席者所提供的正分意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今天與會者所有寶貴的發言意見"},{"start":11854.722,"end":11882.312,"text":"作為未來修法的參考並會編成冊送交本院全體委員及今日主席出列席的提供建議的貴賓參閱如果各位貴賓還有其他書面意見或相關的資料也請盡速提供給我們將訂立本次的公聽會報告再一次感謝各位委員專家及政府"},{"start":11883.032,"end":11888.087,"text":"向機關代表的出席謝謝大家最後一點就是"},{"start":11889.738,"end":11914.169,"text":"我講了我希望兩照持續溝通了時間如何是我願意排如果各位等不及了你要找另外一個召委排我也沒有意見就請另外一個賴召委排願意排下禮拜就排我都沒有意見我只是告訴各位說現在這個情況排進度是0因為每個都有意見"},{"start":11916.13,"end":11926.095,"text":"沒有共識 都不會有共識除了發明證以外要共識不容易的你們條文總共幾條啊條文總共幾條"},{"start":11933.529,"end":11959.718,"text":"五十幾條的大部頭的法案這個就可以可想而知今天如果是行政部門提出來的那就不一樣了那就完全不一樣了這不是立法帶頭的問題是現實是如此我告訴各位就是因為要他們執行他們有他們很多的考量只是我"},{"start":11961.599,"end":11966.326,"text":"在我的認識裡面我們當鋪法都通過了為什麼這個法不能通過這個要請金光和我去思考一下當鋪法都可以修過了為什麼這個法不可以過"},{"start":11975.677,"end":11994.654,"text":"我們要問這個問題當鋪法都可以過這個法為什麼不能過你們要給我們一個答案銀行法銀行法這個規矩的最小的當鋪法都通過了還卡在中間的融資公司法或是融資業法"},{"start":11996.042,"end":12016.517,"text":"為什麼你們的態度這麼的堅決反對我是不懂我是不懂老實講我是站在這些律師的一個角度看這個事情我們希望有進度我們希望進度我們也希望融資業法或者融資公司法也能夠"},{"start":12018.066,"end":12043.886,"text":"有機會儘快的給他通過啦最少在這一屆我看是不是能夠給他通過啦好不好大家既然都我剛剛說過嘛這個銀行業業管理的有然後黨普法都有那卡中間的為什麼不能過呢你告訴我理由呢我找不出一個不能過的理由就就位的認知裡面看不到不通過的理由好不好我們今天的會到此節目結束謝謝各位的參與謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f997b315be8d4dc7f9dbbda46ccfe01665670533963ba935bf954b60144d9953f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"13:41:52 - 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大家也都有非常的擔憂但這個案子到最後那個加害人最後判了有期徒刑9年3個月的定業執行4年半就可以假釋對於加害者的惡性跟被害者的無辜這樣的刑度是不是符合我們所謂我們常在喊的公平正義"},{"start":121.618,"end":147.653,"text":"很多刑度包括違反什麼相關金融的都有10年15年但是對於這樣的一個個案我們現在台灣孩子已經是少子化政府如何把社安網網住每一個孩子其實是相對重要政府在刑度有一定的嚇阻作用除了嚇阻作用之外對於修復的正義剛才林理事長所提的也非常的重要"},{"start":148.633,"end":169.244,"text":"所以第二我們在國內法化的兒童權利公約當中其實也明文的規定我們要盡最大的可能來保護我們的兒童的生存更要保護兒童不會受到任何形式的身心的暴力傷害跟虐待任何一個孩子他可以保障他應該有的固有的生命權"},{"start":170.365,"end":187.863,"text":"但是我們卻仍舊不斷地在台灣看到我們兒虐事件遭到侵犯我們現在規定的刑度高低差距事實上是非常的大所以也因此我們今天召委安排了一個回應民意對於虐童刑責的總檢討我覺得是相對的重要"},{"start":190.205,"end":215.049,"text":"未來如何對社會大眾傳遞我們對於兒童兒孽案件的深惡痛絕的決心所以這個刑度的討論我覺得是有必要請司法院跟法務部我們必須要深刻來去做檢討來回應所有的民意所以為了讓制度成為保護孩童最堅實的後盾刑罰未來也應該成為社會最強硬的力量"},{"start":215.549,"end":236.345,"text":"我認為我們應該來去參考兒童權利公約的體系從事前事中跟事後我們司法介入不同層面來持續的去做檢討也非常的重要那另外在事前的部分我真的建議包括在未還委員會我常常在講未來如何建立兒少的保護專責的部會包括"},{"start":239.867,"end":261.816,"text":"增設我們相關的兒少保護業務的公務人員以增加房市的助理員提升我們房市的功能這個也都是可以我們進一步的去做討論這些都能夠打開保護兒童的觸角鏡而預防遺憾事情發生最後我再次提醒未來如何提升相關調查人員的勢能"},{"start":263.777,"end":273.727,"text":"包括所有的脆弱的家庭包括中高風險的家庭我們如何在社安網的部分提早去發現 提早去關注及時查明兒女的行為的跡象能在問題剛開始還沒發生之前我們就發出一定的信號出來"},{"start":284.438,"end":306.536,"text":"並且立即可以採取行動相關的行動來去做後續的處理那這個是第四點我要提出來的最後也就是我們今天的重點檢討現有的刑事責任跟假釋的制度嚇阻兒童的案件兒童的事件發生透過我們推動制度的修正讓孩子們可以撐起無憂無慮的成長快樂的環境這個是我們所要提出來"},{"start":313.601,"end":342.161,"text":"針對五點的面向我們希望未來有機會透過各部會去做修正但是今天回應民意在刑責的部分的總檢討我覺得是相對的重要因為刑責輕重不一這也造成社會對於這整件額略事件其實會有非常多的覺得我們應該調整我們身為有權力的可以去做調整我們確實應該努力去做一些法令上的一些調整跟修正謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f93a8d4b7b1d8ce1f63ea4f37320387eacb229dfd5e6d71d206d774e8af3129ea05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:21:18 - 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最後我做個簡單的這個總結今天我剛聆聽了多位這個學者專家包括家長還有教育團體他們甚至都做了一個民調了"},{"start":423.561,"end":452.111,"text":"而且從最近的這個民調大家也看得很清楚不只那麼多人上街抗議有高達將近14萬人已經連署了我覺得從法務部一直到立法委員跟我們全民要去回應民意特別是內統這個案子一直在發生而且一直沒有一個解決的方案顯然他的遏止力是有問題的我們希望這個悲劇不要再發生"},{"start":453.4,"end":469.811,"text":"所以拜託大家今天我們當然是傾聽各方面的意見不過今天聽下來很清楚的很多民眾都認為應該是要解決問題的很期待三個月後我們可以看到法務部一個符合全民而且是可以讓悲劇不要再發生的一個修正案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f96ff2b1f59627bc3bdbbda46ccfe01665672ba64a6a255857a86133156bd620685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:56:12 - 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以及也感謝今天來參加公聽會的各位學者專家來參加由我們司法法制委員會所舉行的公聽會我想這個議題在社會上有很多的討論"},{"start":28.078,"end":55.088,"text":"我想我剛才也稍微聽一下我們一些法學專家就過去大家可能就有一些法律的意見認為直接把它修正為說是死刑或者無期徒刑不得假釋大家可能會有一些疑慮但是我在這邊必須要提的是我覺得法律是應該保障人民尤其是保障善良的人民而且應該保障沒有辦法抵抗的孩子"},{"start":57.489,"end":74.454,"text":"那所以其实如果从各位可能是比较是法律的学者专家但是如果把它作为一个社会问题来看的话你可以看到我们现在就说台湾的儿虐跟少年保护是极为不足的"},{"start":75.214,"end":92.839,"text":"从2017年到2023年我国儿少遭到严重虐待死亡人数累计是56人其实每一条都是非常珍贵的生命2019年到2023年我国儿少受虐合计人数从11113人增加到12646人"},{"start":98.36,"end":102.342,"text":"增幅數高達13.8%尤其未滿6歲受孽人數從2244人增加到2868人增幅高達27.8%所以也就是說"},{"start":113.809,"end":141.469,"text":"其實在這麼長一段時間尤其社會不斷的傳輸重大的兒虐事件那大家也覺得說不管是在社會安全網的部分或者在法律部分我們如何精進如何能夠去保住保護我們的兒童可是如果你今天看這樣的人數確實令人觸目驚心確實令人觸目驚心再加上尤其在"},{"start":143.34,"end":158.45,"text":"憲法法庭做出所謂的一致決的決定之後判決死刑一致決的決定之後形同實質廢死那麼也就是說台灣成為一個好像司法"},{"start":159.511,"end":187.463,"text":"跟法庭上沒有辦法去真正保護受害人或受害人家屬尤其在我們看到就是在形同是知廢死的這個憲法法庭的判決之後有幾個在社會上也受到高度重視的這些社會案件譬如說新竹輪胎行縱火奪八命他原來是死刑就把他改判成無期徒刑"},{"start":188.423,"end":197.431,"text":"還有馬國女大學生她原來是判了死刑但是在釋憲之後一樣最高法院撤銷判決發回更審"},{"start":199.736,"end":220.085,"text":"所以總總現在司法的方向會讓民眾覺得擔心甚至憤怒所以今天我們的這樣的一個公聽會其實來源自也就是在凱凱案受到社會矚目之後的凱凱案大家也知道在網路上已經超過13萬人的連署"},{"start":223.326,"end":238.463,"text":"而且呢我也相信在包含我自己在內還有跨黨派的委員我們的辦公室來自多如雪片般的誠情和建議要求希望對於"},{"start":240.605,"end":261.564,"text":"兒童就是凌虐致死應該我們要修法能夠判處死刑或者無期徒刑那對於我想民意代表來講我們最重要的我們是要順從民意我們要順從民意所以在這個方面在因為我現在是國民黨團的書記長那我們黨團呢也"},{"start":266.088,"end":274.056,"text":"出印回應的現在廣大的民意我們也提出了修法我們修正的是刑法第286條就是將淋虐6歲以下7歲以下的兒童"},{"start":281.485,"end":298.989,"text":"是人與死者處死刑或者是無期徒刑所以在這邊也跟大家報告因為黨團提出了版本我們當然希望能夠去順利的修法能夠回應現在社會大眾特別是廣大的父母們尤其對凱凱案還有過去這麼多的這樣子"},{"start":302.87,"end":324.025,"text":"的虐兒案或者是過去也有凌虐自死的案件我們必須要做出一個回應感謝今天所有的學者專家給我們的寶貴意見但是呢在這方面的修法那我也認為是必須我們要去回應社會真正大部分人的意見以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161831","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161831","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f977ac685f47f76899018167f9c4d828f8672ba64a6a25585700c7bc17778110125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:17:11 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Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T12:17:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T12:25:39+08:00","duration":508,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.172843750000002,"end":11.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.653468750000002,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.121593750000002,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.56846875,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.82596875,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.85971875,"end":43.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.78784375,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.73284375,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.03659375,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.954093750000006,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.32659375,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.65034375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.39221875000001,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.58534375,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.12034375,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.54846875000001,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.47971875,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.18284375000002,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.29659375,"end":138.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.03034375000001,"end":140.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.49409375000002,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.43284375000002,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.80596875,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.74221875,"end":176.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.26909375000002,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.72034375,"end":181.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.07784375,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.36846875,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.09409375,"end":220.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.00909375,"end":239.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.92596875,"end":274.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.30034375,"end":282.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.77159375,"end":290.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.09096875,"end":293.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.07784375,"end":295.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.83284375,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.81159375000004,"end":366.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.53909375,"end":367.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.87221875,"end":397.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.57221875000005,"end":404.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.35596875000005,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.45659375,"end":418.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.75034375,"end":418.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.77971875000003,"end":420.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.18471875,"end":420.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.23534375,"end":420.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.91034375000004,"end":421.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.00721875000005,"end":422.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.30659375000005,"end":424.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.16284375000004,"end":437.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.65034375000005,"end":448.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.44596875,"end":450.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.93096875000003,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.43284375,"end":456.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.32659375000003,"end":468.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.95346875,"end":470.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.48909375000005,"end":488.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.98409375000006,"end":497.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.20221875000004,"end":501.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.19721875000005,"end":503.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.66534375000003,"end":504.34034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.742,"end":20.787,"text":"主委上來那就直接請主委主委請教一下有些部落聚會所的設計規劃還有宜居部落的基本設施建設的費用"},{"start":29.252,"end":40.96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這沒問題 我們來處理好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1477,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時17分）主委上來了，就直接請主委了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：主委，請教一下，有些部落聚會所的設計規劃及宜居部落的基本設施建設費用，據我所知，很多在農曆年前你們都已經審查完畢了，但是公所到現在遲遲沒有辦法拿到核定函，請問是什麼原因？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，因為受限於預算凍結的關係，所以有些我們目前還沒有辦法做核定，我們非常期盼這次解凍後能夠針對地方的需求趕快協助他們執行。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為預算大幅被凍結或者刪減，所以影響到地方很多部落建設等等的計畫。我舉幾個例子，譬如臺東巴沙哇力聚會所的規劃經費，鄭天財委員的太太也是那個地方的人，他們也有很多親戚住在那邊。再來是花蓮光復Atomo的基礎建設以及馬太鞍部落的戰事牆等等，這幾個案子也是在花蓮，鄭委員也是花蓮那邊的人，應該都要很關心才是。","因為今年預算的刪減數是2,075億元，創歷史新高，現在當然發生了很多事情，中央補助地方的經費沒有辦法順利撥下去，目前地方政府當然就是哇哇叫，包括昨天我跟臺東縣政府長官對話的時候，他們也是叫苦連天。我們都來自地方，去年這樣子亂刪預算的結果，我想這些提案委員應該最後終於要知道亂刪預算的結果就是拿石頭砸自己的腳，我剛剛講的那幾個地方不都是他們自己應該要很關心的地方嗎？這個就是海水退了我們就知道誰沒有穿褲子，待會要解凍預算，我們就可以知道是誰在擋這個預算，可能有些提案人或許是人頭，協助一些其他的委員提案，我們大家都可以好好來看一下。","另外，我請一下原語會的部分。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：政府後來也鼓勵大家學習母語，現今整個原住民的語言有16族、42個語別，不論在都會區或者原鄉，原住民有不少的家長都想要找到合適的族語老師來好好教導孩子，當然在都會區是更加沒有族語學習的環境。我前陣子接到新北族人的一個陳情案，因為在學校他沒有合適的族語老師，所以這位媽媽希望幫自己的孩子能夠聘到排灣族的族語老師，可是找不到。雖然原語會有建置平臺，但是你們這樣子的平臺其實只有提供給公務機關查詢，所以這個陳情人必須再透過地方政府幫他查，查完之後再回復給他，討論的內容當然包括教學方式，看是要面對面、視訊或其他的方式，以及教學費用等等，如果後來再有其他問題衍生的話，這樣一來一往其實花了很多時間，是非常麻煩的。","本席想要建議你們一個模式，這個模式是我過去曾經協助過職棒工會建置一個向體育署申請補助的職棒退役人才媒合資料庫，棒球教練跟族語老師也有非常相同的情形，若各級學校及社區的棒球教練有這個需求的時候，透過體育署媒合就非常快，但是發現棒球運動的發展已經非常生活化且社區化，很多的民間棒球或是甚至想要一對一教學的社區棒球，他們同樣也有找不到教練的問題，導致想要從事教學工作的教練也沒有辦法進入民間的市場。因此在2022年我協助職棒工會建置了這個網站，在這個網站裡面可以選擇希望找尋什麼樣專長的教練，在哪個區域、哪個縣市，針對教學的費用、學習者的年齡都可以在上面設定條件做搜尋。未來原語會也可以設計類似這樣子的網站，把需要找哪個族別的族語老師以及教授方式與費用都放上去，條件設定之後就會自己跑出來合適的資訊去做全臺的連結與媒合，如果像之前的那個平臺，教練自己願意，就可以自己直接把聯絡資訊再加上去，最後學員就可以從這上面獲得資訊，然後直接聯繫，就不會有個資的問題。這個部分，董事長覺得這樣的建議如何？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：謝謝委員，目前除了個資的部分，人才庫已經提供給公部門，剛剛委員所提的建議，我們會做一個草擬，之後再跟委員說明。"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果有這個更便利的管道，我想對於整個族語的推動、學習會更有幫助。好，謝謝。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：另外請教經發處處長，同樣的道理，我相信在很多地方，不管是部落也好，或者在都會區、社區也好，甚至是個人，其實有很多人也想要學習我們傳統的一些不管是工藝或者手作等等相關的師資，也可以請你們一併……剛剛我已經有舉例了，你們可以朝這個方向去盤點，然後也同樣建置這樣一個平臺，這對於我們的整個文化傳承，其實也是有幫助的，我想這樣的規劃經費應該都不會很多，但一點點錢可以做很多事，對我們整個族語也好，整個文化傳承也好，都是相當大的幫助，也請你們一併規劃。"],["王處長瑞盈：好，沒問題，我們來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，謝謝。","登記發言委員除了不在場者外，其餘都已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員丁學忠、林宜瑾所提書面質詢，列入紀錄、刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位在一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f92c1b3cecae8b0569018167f9c4d828f8672ba64a6a255857116f54e65665532f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"12:11:29 - 12:16:58","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra 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乍為 一會同仁 請我們一出名 欸 指揮指揮好 來 指揮 我還是針對我的選區喔 你在三峽喔 我們做一個那個 就是紀委所喔"},{"start":21.055,"end":41.983,"text":"現在我們爭取了三千零七百萬那在我們三峽的龍埔社區的旁邊客家園區的旁邊那現在整個工程的進度如何各位報告我們六月底就會上網公告希望年底就把它做好"},{"start":47.581,"end":66.56,"text":"那未來完成是不是做一個開放式讓我們社區的大家可以共同來使用因為你使用力一定要高你不能說坐著在那邊養蚊子就沒意義啊那我當初所講的那你的廁所的位置配置有沒有"},{"start":67.976,"end":91.061,"text":"對 把它放進來 都有卡因為我們那個算是一個原住民M7那你未來在北大那邊人口非常多那你還可以讓我們結合社區共同來享用我們原住民這個M7這個聚會所那這樣你才有意義 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Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f904a22f35b80c6041018167f9c4d828f8672ba64a6a255857fc0768286ba31c035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"12:04:47 - 12:11:17","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T12:04:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T12:11:17+08:00","duration":390,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.8997187500000003,"end":5.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.414093750000001,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.679718750000001,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.94096875,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.94034375,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.851593750000003,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.23034375,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.622218750000002,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.49971875,"end":24.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.80346875,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.52471875,"end":28.836593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.824093750000003,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.87034375,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.11909375,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.244718750000004,"end":36.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.22221875,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":45.44159375,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":45.76221875,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.06096875,"end":56.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":56.34284375,"end":56.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.03471875,"end":75.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.06971875,"end":79.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.18721875,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.54971875000001,"end":85.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.38471875,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.97096875000001,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":87.57846875,"end":87.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.99159375,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":91.44284375000001,"end":91.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":94.04159375,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.27346875,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.91284375000001,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.70596875000001,"end":116.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.54971875000001,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.22034375000001,"end":111.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.65409375,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.59784375000001,"end":126.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.69471875,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.89096875,"end":143.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.18159375000002,"end":149.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.82659375,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.77971875,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":161.91284375,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.71284375000002,"end":193.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.89784375000002,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.60221875000002,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":185.84159375000002,"end":187.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.85784375,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.23284375,"end":193.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.26221875000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.65409375000002,"end":204.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":207.07034375,"end":213.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":214.00596875000002,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":217.58346875,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":218.52846875,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":219.28784375,"end":226.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.13909375,"end":226.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":226.62846875000002,"end":228.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.64534375000002,"end":230.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.13034375,"end":228.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":228.14721875,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.46346875,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":229.51409375,"end":229.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.61534375000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辛苦了那就針對評普組的問題問你一個問題就是說面臨評普組即將加入嘛他大概規劃的人數大概多少預期的人數會入籍的人數"},{"start":27.652,"end":44.044,"text":"50個 還是50萬人數啊 平埔族平埔族50萬今年沒有那麼快 今年大概10萬那我想說突然增加這麼多人你們科是有準備增加人力來幫忙這些業務嗎"},{"start":45.265,"end":73.85,"text":"我們會我們會針對這個因為一定一定人數越多他的業務量一定越大是所以是在是在哪一個單位也是在中規處中規處中規處好那我接下來我就要提一些我在部落聽到的問題跟主委來切磋一下那我常常在遇到部落的一些我們的領導人物比如說理事長啊部落會議主席這些他們一直問希望能夠透過這個窗口來直接問你說有沒有可能也會有"},{"start":74.29,"end":82.9,"text":"以後會有津貼社區理事長或者是部落會議主席目前他們都是無極職有這樣的規劃或者是說計劃的"},{"start":87.028,"end":106.519,"text":"跟委員報告 確實目前沒有這樣的規劃那我們內部再討論一下好不好因為如果你走到部落一定會遇到這些問題就是現在我還是會受到一些懲請就是說我們目前曾經是族裔的教學他可能會遇到一些斷糧的問題所以這個部分你了解嗎"},{"start":108.752,"end":128.498,"text":"沒有這個呢 你知道我不曉得他說你要終點式的沉浸式主要補助計畫跟我們報告沉浸式教學最主要精神是要有一個每天有一段時效的長期的那個沉浸才叫沉浸式那目前終點的部分我們覺得它不符合沉浸的那個目標"},{"start":132.619,"end":161.164,"text":"終點式的部分我們會暫停不過如果學校又願意來做其他的教學計畫我們可以透過我們的原住民族語言補助辦法的申請還是可以申請所以這個終點式的確定會停止就對了終點式因為它不符合沉浸式的精神所以我們會停可是它可以轉到別的計畫來申請那針對首例的問題我們現在很多族人都想說這個班級好像太少族人大概知道我們目前台灣的我們原住民的戀人有多少嗎"},{"start":161.94,"end":182.252,"text":"我知道委員的意思就是說我們這個訓練的課程太少了而且像東部就沒有辦法辦我們會趕快希望在西北半島東部辦你就是說這個法律公告以後很多列人現在是沒有辦法使用槍隊的所以你這個50人實在太少了而且是50人去受訓的話他們100%可以拿到證書嗎"},{"start":184.993,"end":204.3,"text":"還要很認真上課所以我意思是說你應該是不是北中南東都要辦一下然後趕快辦理我們立刻來辦好不好然後現在就是遇到借款的問題我們常常看到就是我們如何來提高金融機構乘坐原保地的抵押貸款你們所做的努力在哪裡"},{"start":208.057,"end":222.716,"text":"這個有關這個抵押貸款的部分我想我們會在這個我們的聯保條例還有我們的這個原住民的這個管理辦法裡面我們會這個會不讓就是說這個土地不要讓那個不要設定這個"},{"start":224.958,"end":251.07,"text":"高的抵押錢所以我們希望說現在有承作的可能性嗎?這一兩年?是公股銀行嗎?對,跟委員報告,已經有公股銀行願意承作要點跟企業查案,現在在做最後的簽署可以跟居民說,園民會有做努力,感謝園民會的幫忙好不好目前是土銀跟核庫願意啦主委以前我們都可以跟"},{"start":252.972,"end":262.185,"text":"聽過所謂的國民住宅嘛可是現在都沒有所以那個自建自購這個部分或者說修商住宅貸款這個部分你們有做哪方面的一個規劃嗎"},{"start":265.558,"end":284.354,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分在原保地信貸裡頭已經有規劃進去所以這一來年也會呈現就是剛才鄭天才委員講到社會住宅那我們現在目前看到的計畫也算是只有台中市霧峰跟沙鹿我想說主委你來自屏東"},{"start":285.234,"end":313.58,"text":"我們高坪地區這個社會住宅的迫切性我覺得也是很高因為現在部落不可能很快就長大嘛那很多我們老二老三必須要外出去自己找房子的要去買房子的這些所以這個需求應該是很大的所以應該你要早一點去規劃說我們高坪或者說比較多的一些都市原住民的地區儘早規劃以後才會知道說我們以後要在哪裡自產這樣可以嗎"},{"start":315.687,"end":329.926,"text":"報委員可以喔 他們目前的簽證計畫 他們 縣政府就已經核定了那現在就是說他們對簽證方案還沒有共識那如果他們有共識的話 我們會來給予協助是嗎 目前還沒有共識對 OK"},{"start":331.247,"end":341.111,"text":"好最後就是關於那個我上次去言平下有講到有一些族人因為他們進法補償必須繳回的問題就當時在規劃的時候可能他的進法補償是屬於都市計劃區內結果後來被查到說他不屬於進法補償的範圍結果就造成有議領"},{"start":355.259,"end":374.538,"text":"要追回三年的補償金這個部分原民會員有沒有需要了解或者是尋求協助啊謝謝委員這個部分我們查出來就是說這個的事務或者是這個辦的這個有被誤解就是有失誤的地方這個是在縣政府跟鄉公所"},{"start":374.918,"end":383.663,"text":"那現在我們希望就是民眾可以分歧繳納或者是抵扣這個原來的補償款這樣對民眾比較最少的困擾了好 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1393,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（12時4分）主席，有請主委。"],["主席：主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：主委好，辛苦了！"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會！"],["盧委員縣一：針對平埔族的問題，問你一個問題，平埔族即將加入，規劃的人數大概是多少？預期的人數、會入籍的人數？"],["曾主任委員智勇：50個。"],["盧委員縣一：50個？還是50萬？"],["曾主任委員智勇：50萬。"],["盧委員縣一：平埔族的人數。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，平埔族50萬人。"],["盧委員縣一：對，今年你有預估大概會……"],["曾主任委員智勇：今年沒有那麼快，今年大概10萬。"],["盧委員縣一：我想說突然增加這麼多人，你們科室有準備增加人力來幫忙這些業務嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會！我們會針對這個，因為人數越多，它的業務量一定越大……"],["盧委員縣一：所以是在哪一個單位？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也是在綜規處。"],["盧委員縣一：好。接下來，就要提一些我在部落聽到的問題，跟主委來切磋一下。我常常在部落遇到一些領導人物，譬如說理事長、部落會議主席這些，他們一直問，希望能夠透過窗口來直接問你，以後有沒有可能會有津貼？如社區理事長或部落會議主席，目前他們都是無給職，有這樣的規劃或計畫嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，確實目前沒有這樣的規劃，我們內部再討論一下，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：是，因為你如果走到部落，一定會遇到這些問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：第二，現在我還是會收到一些陳情，目前沉浸式族語教學可能會遇到一些斷糧的問題，這個部分你了解嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有這個耶！我不曉得……"],["盧委員縣一：所以你要終止鐘點式沉浸式族語補助計畫？"],["陳處長坤昇：跟委員報告，沉浸式教學最主要的精神是每天有一段時效的、長期的，那個才叫沉浸式，目前鐘點的部分，我們覺得它不符合沉浸的目標，所以鐘點式的部分我們會暫停，不過如果學校願意來做其他教學計畫的話，我們可以透過原住民族語言發展補助辦法來申請，還是會做，還是可以申請。"],["盧委員縣一：所以鐘點式的確定會停止就對了？"],["陳處長坤昇：因為它不符合沉浸式的精神，所以我們會停，可是它可以轉到別的計畫來申請。"],["盧委員縣一：針對狩獵的問題，現在很多族人都會說班級好像太少，主委大概知道目前臺灣原住民的獵人有多少嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道，我知道委員的意思，就是我們訓練的課程太少，而且像東部就沒有辦法辦，我們會趕快，希望在西部也可以辦東部也可以辦……"],["盧委員縣一：也就是說這個法律公告以後，很多獵人現在是沒有辦法使用槍枝的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你這個50人實在太少了，而且50人去受訓的話，他們是百分之百都可以拿到證書嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還要很認真上課啦！"],["盧委員縣一：所以我的意思是，你是不是應該北、中、南、東都要辦一下？"],["曾主任委員智勇：都要。"],["盧委員縣一：然後趕快辦理。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們立刻來辦。"],["盧委員縣一：現在還有遇到借款的問題，我們常常看到，就是我們如何來提高金融機構承作原保地的抵押貸款，你們所做的努力在哪裡？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有關抵押貸款的部分，在原保條例還有原住民的管理辦法裡面，我們不會讓土地設定高的抵押權，所以我們希望……"],["盧委員縣一：所以現在有承作的可能性嗎？在這一、兩年。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：有嗎？是公股銀行嗎？"],["王處長瑞盈：對，跟委員報告，已經有公股銀行願意承作，現在要點跟契約草案在做最後的確認。"],["盧委員縣一：那我們可以跟族人說原民會有做努力，感謝原民會的幫忙，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前是土銀跟合庫願意啦！"],["盧委員縣一：主委，以前我們都可以跟……我們都有聽過所謂的國民住宅，可是現在都沒有，所以自建自購這個部分，或者是修繕住宅貸款這個部分，你們有做哪方面的規劃嗎？"],["王處長瑞盈：跟委員報告，這個部分在原保地信貸裡頭，已經有規劃進去。"],["盧委員縣一：所以這一、兩年也會呈現，剛才鄭天財委員有講到社會住宅，我們目前看到的計畫好像是只有臺中市的霧峰跟沙鹿，主委，你來自屏東，我們高屏地區關於社會住宅的迫切性，我覺得也是很高，因為現在部落不可能……很快就長大嘛，我們很多老二、老三必須要外出自己去找房子、要去買房子，所以這個需求應該是很大的，所以你應該要早一點去規劃高屏或一些比較多都市原住民的地區，儘早規劃，我們才會知道以後要在哪裡置產，這樣可以嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，可以，目前他們的遷建計畫縣政府已經核定了，但現在他們對於遷建方案還沒有共識，如果他們有共識的話，我們會給予協助。"],["盧委員縣一：是嗎？目前還沒有共識？"],["劉處長維哲：對。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。最後，我上次去延平鄉有講到，有一些族人因為禁伐補償必須繳回的問題，當時在規劃的時候，可能他的禁伐補償是屬於都市計畫區內，結果後來被查到他不屬於禁伐補償的範圍，結果造成溢領禁伐補償金，要追回領取3年的補償金，這個部分原民會有沒有需要了解或者是尋求協助？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員，關於這個部分，我們查出這個事務或辦的人有被誤解，就是有失誤的地方，這個是在縣政府跟鄉公所，現在我們希望民眾可以分期繳納或者是抵扣原來的補償款，這樣對民眾最少的困擾。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席（高金委員素梅代）：繼續我們請吳琪銘委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f96b1d3a0d35d93921018167f9c4d828f8672ba64a6a255857b604f0d634e96aee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:50:39 - 12:04:37","影片長度":"00:13:58","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T11:50:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T12:04:37+08:00","duration":838,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.422218750000001,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.489093750000002,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.130343750000002,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":45.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.98159375,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.91471875,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":70.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.34471875,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.74971875,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.81721875000001,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.10409375,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.25596875000001,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.40346875,"end":74.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.36096875,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.29721875,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.67221875,"end":82.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.08971875,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.87409375,"end":85.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.14346875000001,"end":92.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.20221875,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.50159375000001,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.61471875000001,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.96846875,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.76159375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.31409375000001,"end":106.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.49534375,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.36846875,"end":110.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.10221875,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.14346875000001,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.97846875,"end":122.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.37034375,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.06971875000002,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.19346875000002,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.36596875,"end":152.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.32346875000002,"end":155.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.09096875,"end":158.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.31846875000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.96784375000001,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.95659375000002,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.48784375000002,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.44909375,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.87034375000002,"end":193.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.84034375000002,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.54471875000002,"end":202.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.40846875000003,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.78784375,"end":209.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.44971875000002,"end":213.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.78659375,"end":216.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.95909375000002,"end":221.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.12284375000002,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.31971875000002,"end":236.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.37784375,"end":291.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.29346875000005,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.56346875,"end":291.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.78284375000004,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.38971875000004,"end":313.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.00721875,"end":316.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.89284375,"end":318.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.27659375,"end":320.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.97659375,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.05971875,"end":351.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.65096875,"end":393.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.46721875000003,"end":436.28346875000005},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喔原來900萬就可以去抵押2億去設定抵押權2億 那到底是怎麼一回事我們都很清楚知道 這個就是長期以來的鑑明登記"},{"start":329.139,"end":351.713,"text":"那如果查出背後有中資那更不得了因為目前我們的兩岸人民關係條例也好我們的所有的條例都沒有辦法去查出背後是誰所以在這個部分你們有在5月21號齁昨天有給我一個函附齁說你們元寶地目前清查進度有了但是我看不到元寶條例的目前進度"},{"start":352.714,"end":356.738,"text":"那我是在想因為原開辦法你們也已經在3月5號做修正那原開辦法我們就是希望它未來能夠成為原保條例那這個當中也是引起嘩然因為你們的新辦法說未來的分配計畫要由縣市政府來核定"},{"start":369.449,"end":393.427,"text":"而且呢增加了一個但書去做一個限制申請人的資格所以我們也接到很多的陳情特別是很多人他已經完成公告核定那面臨這個新法舊法又沒有一個公告期他也不知道要怎麼辦但是主委我在這邊我只有一個想法冤有頭債有主我們不能夠為了防弊去損害人民的權利"},{"start":394.548,"end":412.485,"text":"我們要防弊的是不是那些審查的委員 核定的人我們不能夠把這樣的一個防弊加諸在損害人民的權益上面所以我希望這個部分一週內可以到辦公室報告看看怎麼樣去處理那第三題我特別想要來謝謝您因為在5月19號前幾天謝謝您的支持跟農糧署"},{"start":418.871,"end":435.743,"text":"謝謝你們願意在九月份讓我們的國產部落小米進入到全國的營養午餐那也很感謝我們的團善業者他們願意共襄盛舉來處理這個五六月學生營養午餐的部分那這個就是我講的"},{"start":437.236,"end":453.446,"text":"我們原民會要有上位思考你看我做立法委員我第一年進來我就一直跟林務局林保署說獎勵趙琳必須要縮短年限要增加補助額度那我相信他們九月也即將公告"},{"start":454.346,"end":460.687,"text":"第二個 我也覺得既然照領獎勵提高 禁法補償因應也要跟著提高 才不會失衡那也很謝謝我們通過 雖然呢一直有很多人製造恐慌但是我從來沒有恐慌 因為會做的事政府就是會做我不需要去恐慌 那我們就等著九月那第三個就是高山農業"},{"start":476.491,"end":499.112,"text":"那高山農業很重要所以呢我也一直在跟我們的農業部一直在討論怎麼恢復我們的高山農業因為它是一個解植土地最重要的一個歷程我們不知道以前梨山可以種水梨但是現在有茶有水梨有高麗菜都不是我們這個土地本來長的植物那我很謝謝你那天說了一句很重要的話"},{"start":499.953,"end":517.224,"text":"要有人吃才有人種 有人種才會有量有量才會主流化 才會有產業主流化之後文化就會活起來所以原民會你是否願意跟農糧署就是針對這一些我們現在沒有量所以價格壓不下來你們願不願意跟農糧署 農糧署已經答應我了你願不願意一起來支持獎勵種植小米"},{"start":523.307,"end":545.478,"text":"那第四個部分我想要爭取無人機的就業計畫無人機我也是質詢過很多年那您也知道它的重要性但是呢我們現在碰到一個問題因為民航局他要的證照不是我們質詢一次就可以領到他至少要三次以上才有辦法得到那個真正去噴灑農藥或者是載運藥物等等的那種執照所以呢現在"},{"start":550.16,"end":578.889,"text":"我們勞動部執訓局他已經願意了只要能夠在每一次的結訓對應到我們的就業的項目他們這個KPI能夠交代的過去他們就願意來做那現在園民會你是不是願意將這個無人機飛手的這些相關的人力需求去盤點園民會可以提供的機會例如我們的檢測人員啊巡山員啊看災的時候的救護員等等園民會是不是願意來規劃"},{"start":580.162,"end":595.004,"text":"好 這個我們執信已經納入了好 那我要特別提醒我其實去盤點勞動部執訓這些年為我們原住民做的不是農業就是觀光就是傳統文化勞作等等我希望原民會要有一個想法"},{"start":595.865,"end":610.304,"text":"我們要與時俱進我們要多開一些好的能夠跟新的產業結合的要不然我們很容易被邊緣化那第五個部分就是關於力領人才的培訓那這個部分我知道我們的那個"},{"start":612.766,"end":636.831,"text":"處長他已經很認真已經有去就探盤查探驗證的人才跟一些大學像中山大學已經有去開班但是我希望你們跟環境部因為環境部已經答應我可以在每個縣市來針對原住民就近開設專班但是我要問原民會你願不願意跟環境部一起合作來開設這種原住民綠頂人才的培育專班"},{"start":637.651,"end":641.735,"text":"這沒有問題 我們會跟他們一起來做好 謝謝那第六個部分就是今天有原基法的一個提案修法版本我也有其實我在去年的四月也就是第一會期我就把八月一號原住民族日跟我們的歲時計一架我放到我們的原基法"},{"start":657.71,"end":669.766,"text":"讓他能夠有法源依據而不要呢在那個地方去跟人家去爭但是現在碎石記憶架被誤會的很嚴重我必須要講因為我也有跟原民會講過確實我們不要去看那個數字因為當時"},{"start":674.352,"end":702.702,"text":"是因為八八風災有所謂的八百壯士很多的多元人力就業還有很多政府這幾年的計劃去把這個地方工作權保障去壓住我們所謂的失業率但是我們不能夠忘記確實很多的族人很擔心也確實很多的族人他可能他未來老闆在禁用人員的時候他一想到原住民他就不想用了從哪裡可以看你們的貸金越來越多一年比一年多"},{"start":703.422,"end":721.637,"text":"也就是企業他寧可繳代金他也不願意經用原住民人員那我的意思是說很好現在我們就是要來爭取原民會我之前謝謝你們有做原地的即時就業計畫那勞動部的缺工獎勵也同意納入原住民我現在要問原民會是不是應該"},{"start":722.758,"end":739.749,"text":"從你們的代金一樣錢從哪裡來人家不願意用用繳代金我們來用代金去創造更多的誘因給我們的雇主可以嗎可以不要讓我們的族人去上班很擔心很害怕那第七個就是教保員的部分"},{"start":740.169,"end":759.963,"text":"我這幾年已經幫忙很多次但是我只講一句話因為時間已經到了不要每一次來澄清我覺得很辛苦民民互助教保中心跟澄清市都是一樣在做公共化的服務不論薪資不論人員不論權益是不是應該把他們逐步調整一起可以嗎"},{"start":760.923,"end":786.431,"text":"這個已經挑釁好了對那謝謝你們以後就不要再來問他們問這種問題那最後就是我關心的知識體系一直到最後的課綱教材我希望一條龍的計畫這個我已經開很多次協調會教育部 國教署 國教院 國科會 中研院我全部都協調過了那我也看到你們都有共識我們可不可以原住民是在跟時間賽跑啊我們把它做一計畫一條龍好嗎可以"},{"start":788.211,"end":808.649,"text":"那謝謝那我也希望這個部分我們一起來努力那污水道系統內政部已經同意規劃設計費600萬這是政府的錯他把全國的永久污他用都市計畫的污水道的方式來處理造成我們怨聲載道那現在很高興內政部願意出600萬設計規劃原民會你們願意說多少"},{"start":812.092,"end":835.853,"text":"願意 就是我們他們內政部已經沒有什麼意見我們會繼續核定 規劃升級會在2000萬左右OK 那環境部已經表明這個不符合他那我請主委你應該要去跟縣政府溝通可以嗎那以上九個議題希望園民會兩週內能夠提出報告或者到辦公室說明好 謝謝主委 謝謝各位處長 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立華委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1354,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請原民會主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。今天我想要問的議題滿多的，一共有9個議題，時間有限之下，希望很簡短的回答可以不可以、願不願意配合，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：第一個部分，跟大家一樣，我要來關心我們的原基法、原住民自治，還有部落公法人，為什麼？因為我在去年院會總質詢的時候，有特別提到今（2025）年是原基法施行20年，所以我很希望原住民自治也好，部落公法人也好，至少能夠有一個推進，當時我給卓院長看了一個20秒的影片，現在我們再來重複看一下。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：抱歉，聲音出不來，但有文字。這位八十幾歲的老人家做過鄉長、做過校長、做過議員，他在講完這段話之後的一個禮拜，就因為意外過世，主委當時有在現場？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你應該很清楚這段話，這位做過地方政府這麼多行政工作的老人家、耆老、長老，他非常非常感慨的說，希望部落公法人要上路，而且他覺得如果還有機會再當選4年，至少能夠做到這一項就好，所以當時我有提到，希望原民會、行政院可以做到：第一個，訂定部落公法人設置條例；第二個，擬定草案並辦理分區座談；第三個，擬定3年期部落公法人的沙盒計畫，選定試辦點辦理。我很高興今年有提出來，但是我也很意外，因為跟我想的不太一樣，就你們公布的試辦計畫內容，我看到什麼呢？我看到要辦原住民傳統名字查調；部落族語、文化、樂舞及傳統體育活動；部落及其毗鄰區域自然資源調查、巡護、管理；部落產業的規劃、推動；傳統建築、文化地景及公共事業等等一共有8項，這8項都很好，沒有不好，但是我覺得跟我們想像的部落公法人不太一樣。","為什麼我們需要部落公法人？它是一個工具，我舉個例子，像亞泥，我們怎麼跟它談？像這些要水力發電的電廠，我們怎麼跟它談？像光電的、地熱的，我們怎麼跟它談？光是講一個最簡單的，我們的文化發展中心每一年因為使用了北葉村的土地，所以你們有給他們所謂的補償金50萬，但那是被放入鄉公所中，不是直接給北葉村讓其受益，因為它沒有部落公法人。我再舉個簡單的例子，我們很多的狩獵自主團體，必須要去打一個行政契約，雖然它想跟縣政府打契約，縣政府不願意它也沒轍，因為它不是部落公法人，所以部落公法人這個工具非常重要。","我本來想目前有很多的部落正在面臨這種開發問題等等的時候，可以找他們來試辦部落公法人計畫，我們也可以透過沙盒計畫，就一些在我們法律框架下會遇到的阻礙，把它盤整出來，讓它可以順利推動，以後我們就可以進行擴大辦理，甚至是法制化的規劃我覺得也沒有關係，畢竟我們已經上路了。所以第一個部分，今年年底原民會說要辦理成果說明及檢討，我是希望至少明年度擴大辦理，讓有需要的人提出並訂定一個辦法；第二個，不要忘記我們做這個就是為了法制化的規劃，主委，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。","第二個部分，我要來關心原保條例，為什麼我關心原保條例？我在這個會期也有跟卓院長質詢，我跟他說，其實原保條例很重要，因為我們看到前陣子的新聞出來，在苗栗泰安鄉，大家都很譁然原來900萬就可以去設定抵押權2億，那到底是怎麼一回事？我們都很清楚的知道，這個就是長期以來的借名登記，如果查出背後有中資，那更不得了，因為目前不管是我們的兩岸人民關係條例也好，根據我們所有的條例都沒有辦法去查出背後是誰。關於這個部分，你們在昨天（5月21號）有給我一個函復說你們目前原保地清查的進度有了，但是我看不到原保條例的進度。你們已經在3月5號修正原開辦法，我們就是希望原開辦法未來能夠成為原保條例，在這個當中也是引起譁然，因為你們的新辦法規定未來的分配計畫要由縣市政府來核定，而且增加了一個但書去限制申請人的資格，所以我們也接到很多陳情，特別是很多人已經完成公告核定，那面臨新法，舊法又沒有一個公告期，他也不知道要怎麼辦。主委，我只有一個想法，就是冤有頭、債有主，我們不能夠為了防弊去損害人民的權利，我們要防弊的是不是那些審查的委員、核定的人？我們不能夠把這樣的防弊加諸在損害人民的權益上面，所以我希望對這個部分可以在一週內到辦公室報告，看看怎麼樣去處理。","第三題，我特別想要來謝謝您，就是在5月19號、前幾天的事情，謝謝您的支持，謝謝農糧署，因為你們願意在9月份讓我們的國產部落小米進入到全國的營養午餐，也很感謝團膳業者願意共襄盛舉來處理5、6月學生營養午餐的部分。這個就是我講的，我們原民會要有上位思考，你看我做立法委員，我第一年進來就一直跟林保署說，獎勵造林必須要縮短年限、要增加補助額度，我相信他們9月也即將公告。第二個，我覺得既然造林獎勵提高，禁伐補償也要因應跟著提高，這樣才不會失衡，那也很謝謝我們通過了，雖然一直有很多人製造恐慌，但是我從來沒有恐慌，因為會做的事政府就是會做，我不需要去恐慌，那我們就等著9月。第三個就是高山農業，高山農業很重要，所以我也一直在跟農業部討論怎麼恢復我們的高山農業，因為它是一個解質土地最重要的歷程，我們不知道以前梨山可以種水梨，但是現在有茶、有水梨、有高麗菜，都不是我們這個土地上本來生長的植物。我很謝謝你那一天說了一句很重要的話，要有人吃才有人種，有人種才會有量，有量才會主流化、才會有產業，在主流化之後，文化就會活起來，所以原民會是否願意跟農糧署針對我們現在沒有量所以價格壓不下來的問題，農糧署已經答應我了，你願不願意跟農糧署一起來支持獎勵種植小米？"],["曾主任委員智勇：願意，我們願意跟農糧署一起支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。第四個部分，我想要爭取無人機的就業計畫，對無人機我也質詢過很多年，您也知道它的重要性，但是我們現在碰到一個問題，因為民航局要的證照不是我們職訓1次就可以領到，至少要3次以上才有辦法得到真正去噴灑農藥或載運藥物等等的那種執照。現在勞動部職訓局已經願意了，只要能夠在每一次的結訓對應到就業的項目，他們這個KPI能夠交代得過去，他們就願意來做。現在原民會是不是願意就無人機飛手的相關人力需求去盤點原民會可以提供的機會，例如檢測人員、巡山員、在勘災時的救護員等等，原民會是不是願意來規劃？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，這個我們職訓已經納入了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我要特別提醒，我其實有去盤點勞動部的職訓，在這些年為我們原住民做的不是農業就是觀光還有傳統文化勞作等等，我希望原民會要有一個想法，我們要與時俱進，我們要多開一些好的、能夠跟新產業結合的訓練班，要不然我們很容易被邊緣化。","好，第五個部分就是關於綠領人才的培訓，我知道處長很認真，已經有就碳盤查、碳驗證的人才，在中山大學等大學開班，但是我希望你們跟環境部合作，環境部已經答應我可以在每個縣市針對原住民就近開設專班，但是我要問原民會願不願意跟環境部一起合作開設這種原住民綠領人才的培育專班？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這沒有問題，我們會跟他們一起來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。第六個部分就是今天要審查原基法的修法版本，我也有提案，其實我在去年4月也就是第一會期就有把8月1號原住民族日跟我們的歲時祭儀假放到原基法，讓它能夠有法源依據，而不要在那個地方去跟人家爭，但是現在歲時祭儀假被誤會得很嚴重，我必須要講，我也有跟原民會講過，我們不要去看那個數字，因為當時是因為88風災有所謂的八百壯士、很多的多元人力就業，還有政府這幾年很多的計畫，去保障這個地方的工作權，去壓住所謂的失業率。但是我們不能夠忘記，確實有很多的族人很擔心，也確實有很多的老闆在進用人員的時候，他一想到原住民有這種假，他就不想用原住民了！這從哪裡可以看出來？就是你們的代金越來越多，一年比一年多，也就是企業寧可繳代金也不願意進用原住民人員。我的意思是說，很好！現在我們就是要來跟原民會爭取，我之前謝謝你們有做原地的即時就業計畫，勞動部的缺工獎勵也同意納入原住民，我現在要問原民會是不是應該用你們收到的代金來做，看錢是從哪裡來，人家不願意用原住民而繳代金，我們就用代金去創造更多的誘因給雇主，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不要讓我們的族人去上班都很擔心、很害怕。","第七個就是教保員的部分，我這幾年已經幫忙很多次，因為時間已經到了，我只講一句話，就是不要每一次讓他們來陳情，我覺得他們很辛苦，明明互助教保中心跟沉浸式都是一樣在做公共化的服務，不論薪資、不論人員、不論權益，是不是應該把它們逐步調整成一致？可以嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：這個已經調整好了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那謝謝你們，以後就不要讓他們再來問這種問題。","最後就是我關心的知識體系，一直到最後的課綱、教材，我希望是一條龍的計畫，這個我已經開很多次協調會，教育部國教署、國教院、國科會、中研院，我全部都協調過了，那我也看到你們都有共識，原住民是在跟時間賽跑，我們可不可以把它做一個一條龍的計畫，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，我也希望我們就這個部分一起來努力。","還有污水道系統，內政部已經同意規劃設計費600萬，這是政府的錯，它把全國的永久屋，它用都市計畫的污水道的方式來處理，造成我們怨聲載道，現在很高興內政部願意出600萬來設計規劃，那原民會你們願意出多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：願意？內政部已經沒有什麼意見，我們會儘速核定，規劃設計會在2,000萬左右……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：環境部已經表明這個不符合它，主委，請你應該要去跟縣政府溝通，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：以上9個議題，希望原民會兩週內能夠提出報告，或者到辦公室說明，謝謝主委，謝謝各位處長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","下一位我們請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9330531268ba103af018167f9c4d828f8672ba64a6a255857c932d0b88b6ae5ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:44:35 - 11:50:28","影片長度":"00:05:53","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra 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在限制當中有提到說呢 斟酌於國家資源要另以法令定制 用一個三年內要制定但是所有的民間的版本 希望在個人的權利的部分能夠一年內達成諸位 這頭還沒有一個討論 商量的空間"},{"start":101.963,"end":129.559,"text":"主委請回答好這個平埔族平埔族這個生分法我們在5月15號已經送大業也送來送很晚了我講老師說比較慢還是我們三催四趕是三催四促才產生出來是好那我們推算那現在就是說我們的平埔的這個族群的朋友他們是希望所有的錢利都能夠一次就到位那但在這個"},{"start":131.56,"end":142.089,"text":"原來的山地原住民跟平地原住民來講是希望說他是有別以這兩個族群的那這個原住民族的這個基本法"},{"start":143.134,"end":168.275,"text":"他是在規範這個3D原住民跟平地原住民的那這個這個平埔族群是後來的那當然有一些這個基本法裡面有一些確實沒有辦法來規範現在的這個平埔原住民所以我們當然要用另外的專法來為平埔族的這個族人量身打造為他們在我覺得關鍵其實在那三年跟一年之間是啊"},{"start":168.815,"end":194.529,"text":"有關於個人權益的部分你用三年的部分老實講大家就會覺得充滿變數充滿變數不只是內容的問題而已而且還有包括整部法令的部分你現在現階段你如果這麼有自信的話用一個新法的方式想要來處理這個平埔原住民的身份跟權益的問題的話那我就問你"},{"start":195.427,"end":220.265,"text":"你們現在推出來之後 你有把握在這個會期當中能夠通過嗎我們希望在這個會期當中下個會期九月就開始了啊是十月就到期了不是嗎對主委我覺得你沒有什麼危機感如果十月就還是這個聲紋沒有通過的話我們評普原住民主的這個民主認定我們立刻就會啟動"},{"start":221.728,"end":245.049,"text":"對 認定是該是啟動嘛 但是權益的部分規範還是模模糊糊嘛沒有一個法令上的依據嘛 憲判就希望你三年內完成立法工作嘛 是對 不是嗎 是就是主委您的責任啊 是啊對啊 那現在又出現啊 出現了另一個委員的版本啊連原住民三個字連提都不提基本上這根本是違憲的嘛 不是嗎沒有錯 這個當然 剛剛都沒有聽到你講"},{"start":246.348,"end":267.336,"text":"可是問題是現實的政治多數當中這個違憲的法案如果萬一通過的話那你來怎麼辦我就問你啊這個如果是內容的一個法律來推過的話當然我們沒有辦法接受啦我們也會拜託行政院這裡也要提出至少也要提出呼籲或者是釋憲啊所以說呢萬一萬一"},{"start":268.476,"end":281.466,"text":"如果呢,因為是花一彩,我願意承認原住民的身份,違反了第17號判,現判的話,你還是可以踩住你的基本的立場,該赴議的時候赴議,該釋憲的時候要釋憲,否則這個矮化嘛,這個歧視嘛,對不對?"},{"start":287.37,"end":309.602,"text":"所以主委你的立場要踩住啊而且很重要的是說這內容的部分要如何讓這個憲法的判決得以這個落實之外還有部分還要讓這個竹青的這個期待可以落實啊所以竹青期待落實的部分的這個內容之外我覺得趁這個機會啦反正現在研會已經"},{"start":311.812,"end":327.595,"text":"成為自己的事實了嘛你不如就這個時候一來加強這個立法工作在這個會期把它完成二來加強對話再來台南一次因為西拉雅是平埔族當中最大的文化儀式祭典也是最完整的"},{"start":328.996,"end":348.421,"text":"現階段呢 基本上他們行動是最積極的你能不能撥個時間來下來跟台南對話一下會 我們要盡快就趕快 趕快下去我是說這個會期之內喔對啊 趕快安排喔加強民間對話 積極推動立法讓憲判能夠得以早日落實 好不好加油謝謝好 謝謝郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1323,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時44分）主席，有請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委，你好。我從在2008年的時候，在縣府時期的時候，就參與平埔正名的運動，事隔多年終於在將近三年前的時候，憲判字第17號已經出爐，給予平埔族群有一道希望。這3年來我也曾經在原民會這邊做過要求，要跟民間對話，不過我們國家對平埔族只有予以文化承認，而憲判結果是正式地予以政治的承認，而這個政治的承認要有一些法定權利的給予，但是必須符合一些要件，一來3年之內要完成立法，不是修法就是立新法，民間一直想說要用修法的方式，但是你們卻用新法的方式，這個部分待會請主委說明一下，大家一直沒有辦法接受。但就實質的內容來說，大家希望集體權利的部分，應該符合原住民基本法的精神。","另外，憲判當中有提到，斟酌國家資源，另以法律定之；然後要求3年內要制定，但是所有的民間版本，都希望個人權利的部分能夠在1年內達成，主委，這裡頭還有沒有一個討論、商量的空間？主委，請回答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：平埔族的身分法，我們在5月15號已送大院，也送來……"],["郭委員國文：老實說，你送得很晚，還是我們三催四促才產生出來的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在平埔族群的朋友希望的所有權利都能夠一次就到位了，但就原來的山地原住民跟平地原住民來講，是希望有別於這兩個族群的，而原住民族基本法是在規範山地原住民跟平地原住民的，平埔族群是後來的，所以在基本法裡面有一些確實沒有辦法來規範現在的平埔原住民，所以我們當然要用另外的專法來為平埔族的族人量身打造，為他們在……"],["郭委員國文：我覺得關鍵其實在那3年跟1年之間，有關於個人權益的部分，若用3年的話，老實講大家就會覺得充滿變數，充滿變數不只是內容的問題，還包括整部法令的部分，現階段你如果這麼有自信，用一個新法的方式想要來處理平埔原住民身分跟權益問題的話，那我就問你，你們現在推出來之後，你有把握在這個會期當中能夠通過嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望在這個會期當中……"],["郭委員國文：我們下個會期9月就開始了，10月就到期了，不是嗎？主委，我覺得你沒有什麼危機感。"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果10月這個身分法還沒有通過的話，則我們平埔原住民族的民族認定，我們立刻就會啟動。"],["郭委員國文：認定是要開始啟動，但是權益的規範還是模模糊糊的，沒有一個法律上的依據，憲判就希望你3年內完成立法工作，不是嗎？這是主委您的責任啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！現在又出現另一個委員的版本，連「原住民」這3個字都不提，基本上這根本是違憲的，不是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有錯，這個當然……"],["郭委員國文：剛剛都沒有聽到你講，問題是現實的政治多數當中，這個違憲法案萬一通過的話，那你該怎麼辦？我就問你啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果是那樣的法律通過的話，當然我們沒有辦法接受，我們也會拜託行政院至少也要提出呼籲或者是釋憲。"],["郭委員國文：所以萬一又是橫柴入灶，不願意承認這原住民的身分，違反了憲判字第17號的話，你還是可以踩住你基本的立場，該覆議的時候覆議、該釋憲的時候釋憲。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["郭委員國文：否則這個是矮化、這個是歧視，對不對？所以主委你的立場要踩住，而且很重要的是內容的部分要如何讓憲法的判決得以落實之外，還有要讓族親的期待可以落實，所以族親期待落實的部分，除了內容之外，我覺得趁這個機會，反正現在延會已經成為具體事實了，你不如就這個時候，一來加強立法工作，在這個會期把它完成；二來加強對話，再來臺南一次，因為西拉雅是平埔族當中最大的，文化儀式、祭典也是最完整的，現階段他們行動也是最積極的，你能否撥個時間下來跟臺南對話一下？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會，我們會儘快下去。"],["郭委員國文：我是說這個會期之內喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對啊！會趕快。"],["郭委員國文：趕快安排喔！加強民間對話、積極推動立法，讓憲判得以早日落實，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["郭委員國文：加油。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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104年12月16號馬英九公佈施行林江一主委很快的在105年5月3號卸任之前喔訂了部落公法人設置辦法"},{"start":209.775,"end":237.65,"text":"然後你們也預告了105年5月3號林江一主委做了預告蔡總統就任預告之後沒有幾天蔡總統就任然後8月1號蔡總統承諾部落公法人的制度已經推動上路大家都非常高興有了法律又有草案了"},{"start":238.905,"end":260.905,"text":"然後一將主委在106年10月27號也做了預告做了一些修正做了一個廣泛的徵詢意見之後就預告囉都預告了現在還事辦什麼呢對不對還事辦什麼呢都有啊都有草案啊趕快發布才對啊因為"},{"start":262.503,"end":290.585,"text":"你說事辦 你也要先依當初的依原計法第二條之一發佈這個部落公法人的設置辦法如果你想事辦 你可以在這個辦法裡面加一條先事辦你可以加一條事辦的公法人才可以成為公法人啊"},{"start":291.738,"end":314.569,"text":"你是一個公法人的部落你事辦才有一個成效到底是怎麼樣啊你才有部落公法人的前者前者跟前例跟義務才能夠才才真正的才能夠達到事辦的效果不然的話沒有部落公法人"},{"start":315.851,"end":342.854,"text":"你這個沒有辦法 你就沒有法規依據嘛你用那個事辦計畫他就不是公法人啊沒有公法人的地位沒有這個潛力義務你怎麼事辦 淪為空談嘛就是原來那是部落嘛你還是現在的部落沒有地位你事辦什麼呢"},{"start":343.959,"end":372.612,"text":"你沒有譴責啊 你怎麼事辦所以還是要趕快發布部落公法人設置辦法啊 主委趕快發布我們會就是說謝謝委員這個指教啦要勇敢的跟這個主委講過去我當企劃處處長也是很勇敢的跟主委講啊對不對 我當副主委的時候也是很勇敢的"},{"start":375.148,"end":400.125,"text":"不要怕就送上去就不用送啊我說那個亞波蘇洋送成何然後主委就把它發布不用送行政院呢授權給你呢這麼大譴責中華民國的法律給你這麼大的譴責又不敢奇怪了所以這個部分好我們接下來"},{"start":401.866,"end":430.098,"text":"所以當初因為有這樣的提案所以等一下我們預算提案解凍案的時候我們可以繼續討論好接下來這個禁法補償當初我提要追加預算而且還要求你1月31號以前要送到主計總處這個是考慮到立法院的會期啊那個曾主委立法院的會期啊"},{"start":430.868,"end":448.912,"text":"到這個月5月31號6月開始是休會還好我們上禮拜前幾天表決通過要延會到7月31號所以還有機會進法補償的追加預算的審查"},{"start":449.83,"end":478.322,"text":"那趕快送來在你的報告裡面提到你已經比我的比我的立法院所通過的結議預算案的解通案的結議慢了兩個月你是3月10號3月10號送到行政院你每天啊或是每個禮拜碰到行政院主席長還有這個院長跟他報告的這個急迫性啊不能9月怎麼發放"},{"start":480.575,"end":507.726,"text":"你7月30還要我們有研會啊不然的話你9月10月是立法院的總質詢的時間不會處理那個議案啊所以抓住這個時間趕快要求每個禮拜就跟那個主計長講可以嗎可以每個禮拜就跟他講不要一直躺在他的桌上他有退回嗎有沒有退回"},{"start":508.649,"end":537.474,"text":"還沒有退回沒有退回嘛對嘛沒有退回就要趕快這個是你要跟他講卓榮泰院長所承諾的啊對不對最佳預算是卓榮泰院長所承諾的嘛最後一個題目齁這個住宅啊原住民的專屬的社會住宅過去沒有住宅法的時候你看基隆1億當時啊81年啊1億多原住民的國宅啊"},{"start":538.342,"end":566.463,"text":"然後你看這個新店的中正原住民住宅兩億多的經費然後這個新三峽的兩億多的住宅然後汐止花東新村四億多這個是最快的邊公寓上直接買那個民間的集合式住宅這個是直接買喔"},{"start":567.677,"end":587.129,"text":"直接買民間的集合式住宅法那時候是沒有住宅法現在啊各位報告剛剛你講這個都是為了安置災民所做的一些一樣的做法一樣的做法我們看住宅法你先看住宅法第二條第四項"},{"start":588.342,"end":611.276,"text":"目的事業主管機關就是指中央人民會為了原住民主的教育語言文化的傳承發展需要要興建專攻原住民成都的社會住宅這個是法例105年等一下105年12月23號所明訂的原住民的現在都會期人口已經達到51.57%了你看"},{"start":617.461,"end":643.578,"text":"新北市台北市桃園市台中市原住民的自有住宅的比例這麼的低所以要新建或是買作為原住民的專攻的社會住宅這個是有法律的依據啊處長他想要說什麼目的事業主管機關是地方政府錯了"},{"start":645.202,"end":670.601,"text":"住宅法第二條寫得很清楚地方政府是什麼是主管機關啊他不是目的主委主管機關所以是延命會的責任這個我曾經執行國發會啊國發會說我執行國發會說要給你們機會修你們原住民的住宅四年計劃原住民族住宅四年計劃國發會說可以"},{"start":675.632,"end":694.119,"text":"國發會說可以他我質詢完之後馬上就發文給言明會啊主委3月21號我把國發會的承諾說要趕快他還說要看要快不然會來不及處長這個計劃說成何了沒有"},{"start":697.08,"end":725.897,"text":"包委員喔 社會住宅目前都是用融資來興建那因為目前地方政府提出的都是要中央全額補助所以我們沒有辦法 有沒有全額補助是另外可以談的至少你又有錢啦你連一塊錢都沒有融資平台本來就是用融資本來就金財源就會沒有問題那現在地方呢都是要求全額補助 其實中央沒有辦法國發會都同意這不是國發會說了就算 國發會都同意"},{"start":727.995,"end":753.982,"text":"針對在這個你們的四年計劃裡面原住民族住宅四年計劃現在整個地方就有新建住宅經費總共是72億總共是72億其實中央是沒有辦法全部都是應該用自廠性的方式來去做處理處長 曾主委我早上還質詢了國發會主委早上喔 今天早上喔"},{"start":755.285,"end":783.443,"text":"他說沒有問題可以趕快請嚴明會送來所以這個部分是一個非常非常重要最後最後剩下十秒鐘嚴明會委託政治大學已經完成的台灣原住民族正名運動政府體制文獻史料會篇主委就趕快印好不好好謝謝"},{"start":785.499,"end":785.763,"text":"謝謝 鄭天才委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1292,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時31分）主席、各位委員、曾主委好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天的議程有業務報告、預算解凍案，還有法案審查，在你的業務報告裡特別提到原住民族自治法，標題是「原住民族自治法」，然後還要研擬原住民族自治法草案。這早就有了！原住民族自治法在我當企劃處處長的時候就草擬了，我當副主委的時候就完成了，還要研擬什麼呢？然後無論是陳水扁總統或是馬英九總統，都有送原住民族自治法到立法院，只不過送來時太晚了，沒有完成，因為屆期不連續，所以又退回去了。已經都有了，結果你們現在還在研擬？真的是一個……這個就不用回答了，但是要勸曾主委，不要像某人一樣連送草案到行政院都沒有，最起碼要送行政院，不要把責任全部扛在自己身上，好像很偉大，當初原住民族自治……其實大家都很關心部落公法人的試辦，請問這個經費要從哪裡支應？"],["曾主任委員智勇：從綜合規劃發展的經費，還有綜合發展基金來支應。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但你們的預算支用說明裡沒有這些啊！預算支用說明沒有這些，所以你們是挪用。好，接下來看原住民族基本法第四條，剛剛講了，要制定原住民族自治法，早就已經有草案了，要趕快送。很重要的是，今天談部落公法人，這是本席提案，然後立法院三讀通過的，原基法第二條之一寫得很清楚：部落經中央原住民族主管機關核定者，為公法人。所以要先依第二項訂定部落公法人組織設置辦法，這是法律授權中央原民會自己訂。所以104年12月16日馬英九總統公布施行後，林江義主委很快在105年5月3日卸任前訂定「部落公法人組織設置辦法」，然後105年5月3日林江義主委也做了預告。預告之後沒幾天，蔡總統就任，在8月1號承諾部落公法人的制度已經推動上路。大家都非常高興，有了法律也有了草案，後來夷將主委廣泛徵詢意見之後做了一些修正，在106年10月27日也預告了，現在還試辦什麼呢？對不對？還試辦什麼呢？都有啊！都有草案啊！要趕快發布才對啊！如果要試辦，也要先依原基法第二條之一的規定先發布「部落公法人組織設置辦法」，如果你想試辦，可以在這個辦法裡面加一條先試辦，你可以加一條，試辦的公法人才可以成為公法人，你是一個公法人的部落，你試辦才知道成效到底是怎麼樣，你才有部落公法人的權利跟義務，才能夠真正達到試辦的效果。不然的話，沒有部落公法人……你這個沒有法規依據，你用一個試辦計畫，它就不是公法人，沒有公法人的地位、沒有這個權利義務，你怎麼試辦？淪為空談嘛！就是原來的部落嘛！你還是現在的部落，沒有地位，你試辦什麼呢？你沒有權責啊！你怎麼試辦？所以還是要趕快發布部落公法人組織設置辦法，主委，趕快發布。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會就是說……謝謝委員的指教。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：處長，要勇敢的跟主委講，過去我當企劃處處長，也是很勇敢的跟主委講，對不對？我當副主委的時候也是很勇敢的，你不要怕，就送上去……這不用送啊！就呈核，然後主委就把它發布，不用送行政院耶！授權給你了，這麼大的權責，中華民國的法律給你這麼大的權責，又不敢，奇怪了，所以這個部分……當初因為有這樣的提案，所以等一下我們處理預算解凍案的時候，我們可以繼續討論。","接下來，禁伐補償當初我提要追加預算，而且還要求你1月31號以前要送到主計總處，這個是考慮到立法院的會期。曾主委，立法院的會期到這個月5月31號，6月開始是休會，還好我們前幾天表決通過要延會到7月31號，所以還有機會審查禁伐補償的追加預算，那趕快送來。在你的報告裡面提到，你已經比我立法院所通過的決議，預算案的解凍案的決議慢了2個月，你是3月10號送到行政院，你每天或是每個禮拜碰到行政院主計長還有院長，跟他報告這個的急迫性，不然你9月怎麼發放，你7月31號……還好我們有延會，不然的話，9月、10月是立法院總質詢的時間，不會處理議案，所以抓住這個時間趕快要求，你每個禮拜就跟主計長講，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：每個禮拜就跟他講，不要一直躺在他的桌上，他有退回嗎？有沒有退回？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有退回。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有退回，對嘛！沒有退回就要趕快，這個是……你要跟他講是卓榮泰院長所承諾的啊！對不對？追加預算是卓榮泰院長所承諾的嘛！","最後一個題目是住宅，原住民專屬的社會住宅，過去沒有住宅法的時候，基隆當時在81年花一億多蓋原住民的國宅，你看新店的中正原住民住宅，是兩億多的經費，然後是三峽兩億多的住宅、汐止花東新村四億多，這個是最快的，編夠預算直接買民間的集合式住宅，這個是直接買喔！直接買民間的集合式住宅，那時候是沒有住宅法，現在……"],["劉處長維哲：跟委員報告，剛剛你講的這個都是為了安置災民所做的一些的作法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一樣的作法、一樣的作法，我們看住宅法，你先看住宅法第二條第四項，目的事業主管機關就是指中央原民會，為了原住民族的教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要，要興建專供原住民承租的社會住宅，這個是法律，105年12月23號所明定的。原住民在都會區的人口已經達到51.57%了，你看新北市、臺北市、桃園市、臺中市原住民自有住宅的比例這麼的低，所以要興建或是買作為原住民專供的社會住宅，這個是有法律的依據，處長他想要說什麼？目的事業主管機關是地方政府，錯了！住宅法第二條寫得很清楚，地方政府是什麼？是主管機關啊！它不是目的事業主管機關，所以是原民會的責任啦！我曾經質詢國發會說要給你們機會，修原住民族住宅4年計畫，國發會說可以，我質詢完之後馬上就發文給原民會，主委，上個月21號，我把國發會的承諾……他還說要看、要快，不然會來不及。處長，這個計畫陳核了沒有？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，社會住宅目前都是用融資來興建，因為目前地方政府提出的都是要中央全額補助，所以我們沒有辦法……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要不要全額補助是另外可以談的。"],["劉處長維哲：這個部分……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：至少你要有錢啦！你連一塊錢都沒有。"],["劉處長維哲：融資平臺本來就是用融資，財源就會沒有問題，那現在地方都是要求全額補助，其實中央……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：處長，國發會都同意……"],["劉處長維哲：這不是國發會說了就算。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，國發會都同意針對你們的原住民族住宅4年計畫……"],["劉處長維哲：現在整個地方就有7件，住宅經費總共是72億。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我剛才講的那些費用，所以這個部分……"],["劉處長維哲：其實中央是沒有辦法全額補助，應該都是用自償性的方式來做處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：處長、曾主委，我早上還質詢了國發會主委，早上喔！今天早上喔！他說沒有問題，可以，趕快請原民會送來，好不好？所以這個部分是一個非常非常重要的……最後，剩下10秒鐘，原民會委託政治大學已經完成的「臺灣原住民族正名運動政府體制文獻史料彙編」，主委，這個趕快印，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","下一位我們請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161825","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161825","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9318acacc228d3e98018167f9c4d828f8672ba64a6a2558571345feb9e96ac4965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:20:29 - 11:31:10","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T11:20:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T11:31:10+08:00","duration":641,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.46846875,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.77471875,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.43284375,"end":20.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.24159375,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.890968750000003,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.83159375,"end":34.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.10159375,"end":34.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.299718750000004,"end":46.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.268468750000004,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.359718750000006,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.20659375000001,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.20596875000001,"end":72.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.20096875,"end":83.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.57471875,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.16409375,"end":94.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.42971875,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.40846875000001,"end":96.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.65721875000001,"end":97.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.72034375000001,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.40346875,"end":101.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.23846875000001,"end":104.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.84159375,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.68034375,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.31159375000001,"end":124.48409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.42471875000001,"end":134.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.76096875000002,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.41409375,"end":141.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.84846875,"end":146.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.65409375000002,"end":144.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.92784375000002,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.33221875,"end":151.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.78784375,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.77471875,"end":162.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.63846875000002,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.97159375,"end":167.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.19034375,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.61159375,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.80534375000002,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.69096875000002,"end":186.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.50471875000002,"end":181.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.63971875000001,"end":181.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.77409375000002,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.95409375,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.55284375000002,"end":201.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.91909375,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.87221875,"end":214.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.57971875,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.79909375000003,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.81596875000002,"end":214.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.84971875000002,"end":221.95409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.44346875000002,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.28659375,"end":229.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.23159375,"end":233.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.11284375000002,"end":232.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.09159375000002,"end":234.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.10846875000001,"end":233.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.59784375,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.15409375000002,"end":241.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.77346875,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.08096875,"end":250.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.29971875,"end":254.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.94471875000002,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.02909375000002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那本席想請教可不可以建立跨部會機制因為我想除了原民會你們還要跟教育部整個來聯合是來做這種聯防機制來實施這種休學或退學的預警制度"},{"start":222.515,"end":241.012,"text":"可不可以今天本席質詢之後你們朝這個方向來盡力來協助年輕人他是我們國家未來的棟樑好好的栽培啊那接著本席要追問要繼續追問其實除了經濟家庭的因素之外你們還有沒有發現有什麼其他的因素"},{"start":247.148,"end":273.473,"text":"造成這些學生他為什麼要休學為什麼要退學除了經濟家庭因素一定還有次要的因素可能還有一點就是他的興趣還有他學習的成績的問題他學習的成績如果他一直沒有成就感或怎麼樣他就會先離開那你有沒有聽過原民專班這件事有啊那你知道原民專班現在有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":275.137,"end":298.035,"text":"因為你講到學習興趣嘛那你他為什麼不能支撐他念完大學四年主委你那麼優秀你們的副主委還有我們的高精委員我們鄭天才委員盧憲毅委員都這麼優秀我們希望有更多更優秀的受到很好的教育他可以適性的發展他可以發揮他的所長他在學校期間碰到了什麼困難"},{"start":301.139,"end":326.398,"text":"園民專班的問題你們知道嗎應該是碰到了學習的困難那為什麼會有學習的困難園民專班你們有關心嗎因為這是為園民的學生設置的專班那現在園民專班有什麼問題你們知道嗎那是不是我們請處長這位是阿文好我是教育文化處處長教育文化處陳處長"},{"start":328.857,"end":348.411,"text":"是 謝謝委員的指教 我想原民專班 我們原民會每年都有固定的補助來協助他們開辦相關的好 你都補助 你現在就告訴我有錢有錢 但是你知道他發生了什麼問題有什麼不足 還有什麼你們要加強協助我們這些年輕學子的嗎"},{"start":349.093,"end":375.006,"text":"我想在那個師資的充實上學校可能還要再繼續加油對很好師資不足資源分配不均所以這一塊主委我們陳處長講了我們是不是未來可以積極的來改善可以會我們應該要有年度原民專班的評鑑機制嘛那納入學生支持成效與後續"},{"start":376.795,"end":392.111,"text":"追蹤的一個機制你們要有這樣的一個數據或者是要這樣去了解啊是不是可以喔可以還有我還要再繼續追問除了原民專班問題"},{"start":394.451,"end":413.668,"text":"我不知道你們有沒有發現在學校還有一些他們這個適應不良甚至就是他們感受到在校園裡不友善的對待這個你們有沒有委託相關學者來做研究 有沒有"},{"start":415.385,"end":435.704,"text":"這個其實是我們長期一直在關心學生在學校受到的歧視的問題那我們在跟教育部合作在所有的大專校園都是有原住民學生資源中心透過資源中心來對學校的原住民孩子做關懷資源中心如果他沒跟你反映你資源中心有主動做任何的調查有任何的數據支撐嗎"},{"start":437.591,"end":454.56,"text":"我們每年都會去跟大部分的我們每年跟研資中心都有定期的會議在做他們業務的的訪試然後通過這個訪試來瞭解各個中心對學生的關懷跟歧視的懸導這方面本席有看到啦有一些學者有一直"},{"start":455.529,"end":483.569,"text":"在做很多的研究有百分之七十五诶达到四分之三的我们原住民的同学啊在学校感受到不友善的对待那这个不友善对待有部分可能是同学之间有然后有将近十六趴是来自于教职员所以我们希望我们希望这一块不会是压垮我们原住民学生的最后一根稻草"},{"start":484.181,"end":510.591,"text":"所以這個部分也要來加強改進可以嗎可以我們希望下個會期在做業務報告的時候我們希望看到你們具體的一些掌握還有成效那最後本席再用一點點的時間就是在你們的業務報告書面報告裡面有提到行政院原住民族基本法推動會在我們卓榮泰院長主持之下"},{"start":512.771,"end":536.463,"text":"這個持續的要為了精進原住民的健康權社福權等等的保障那要來逐步縮減社會原住民族與社會各項的指標差距主委你知道這件事吧因為你應該在現場吧開會的時候請問有沒有盤點哪些指標落後有沒有有沒有盤點"},{"start":539.01,"end":559.986,"text":"跟委員報告一下 那我們相關所有設計的人都有一些差距 比如說像我們的平均移民室差OK 所以有盤點 所有的差距 那請問有沒有改善方案以及績效的期限你們有沒有設定 有 我們都跟跨部會合作 那跟衛福部合作那就跟薪資有關係 有沒有 這個 有 那會後提供給本席可以嗎 好"},{"start":560.766,"end":589.357,"text":"那最后最后这个原住民自治有这个部落公法人的制度这个在十年前105年就已经办理这个法规草案的预告各方面现在十年后你们才要出办找了几个部落来出办造成其实很多原民团体都起来抗议这个大家在问是不是原住民自治最大的障碍就是原民会"},{"start":590.615,"end":600.201,"text":"所以請問你們現在試辦預計什麼時候要有成果以及真正開始落實會不會又要再十年後最後回答本席這個問題"},{"start":602.588,"end":622.455,"text":"不會 不會十年後啦那你們預計事辦到什麼時候成效然後預計什麼時候要來實施有沒有期程今年只是一個這五個部落的事辦那明年我們會擴大更多的事辦那本席的問題是那你有沒有預計什麼時候可以真正落實原住民自治"},{"start":623.195,"end":636.525,"text":"這個至少要有兩三年以上的薪水兩三年然後明年你說明年會整個擴大來辦理我們希望這是原住民朋友的期待不要再一個十年謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1213,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時20分）謝謝主席，本席請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。本席想請教，臺灣有少子化的問題，請問原住民有沒有少子化的問題？有沒有統計？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也有少子化的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有嘛！有少子化的問題，我們全國上下大家都有一個共識，既然生得少，就要好好地給他們最好的教育，下一代已經人數不夠了，我們都要想辦法讓每一位的潛能發揮，給他們受最好的教育。本席今天在這裡要為一群長期被制度邊緣化的年輕人發聲，他們長期被制度冷漠的對待，我要說的是原住民大專院校的學生，我們看到教育部的統計數字，全臺灣大專原住民學生在112年大概有2.5萬人，但是當年度中途離開學校的比例有多少？主委，您知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是中途離開的學生？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["曾主任委員智勇：二點幾吧！"],["徐委員欣瑩：百分之二點幾嗎？你確定？我跟主委報告，112年原住民學生有2.5萬人，休學的就有3,254人，占了13%，退學的有3,401人，又占了13%，這兩個加起來已經超過四分之一了。我們在這裡要先問的是，主委，你知道原因是什麼嗎？您剛剛竟然講2%，距離差別太大了吧！是你所知道數字的10倍，您知道什麼原因嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大概是經濟因素還有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼因素？"],["曾主任委員智勇：經濟的因素跟家庭的因素。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，您既然知道經濟的因素跟家庭的因素，那你們有想要協助他們嗎？你們有做出任何的關心、任何的協助去減少這種情況嗎？我要說的是，你們不能只看報到率而不看完成率，這樣的情況是教育公平的假象，你們這樣做半套。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們每一年都有編2億的獎助學金來幫忙大專學生，但可能實在是因為家庭的因素，他沒有辦法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有編2億，結果中途離開學校，休學、退學的占了26%，你有沒有要想辦法解決改善這種情況？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我會責成教文處跟教育部……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想請教，可不可以建立跨部會機制，因為除了原民會，你們還要跟教育部整個聯合做這種聯防機制，實施休學或退學的預警制度，可不可以在今天本席質詢之後，你們朝這個方向來盡力協助？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們來跟教育部……"],["徐委員欣瑩：年輕人是國家未來的棟梁，好好的栽培啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接著本席要繼續追問，除了經濟、家庭的因素之外，你們還有沒有發現有什麼其他的因素造成這些學生……為什麼要休學？為什麼要退學？除了經濟、家庭因素之外，一定還有次要的因素。"],["曾主任委員智勇：可能還有一點，就是他的興趣及學習成績的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：興趣、學習成績？"],["曾主任委員智勇：他的學習成績如果一直讓他沒有成就感或怎麼樣，他就會選擇離開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好，你有沒有聽過原民專班這件事？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：你知道原民專班現在有什麼問題嗎？因為你講到學習、興趣，為什麼不能支撐他念完大學四年？主委，你那麼優秀，你們的副主委還有我們的高金委員、鄭天財委員、盧縣一委員都這麼優秀，我們希望有更多更優秀的受到很好的教育，他可以適性發展、他可以發揮所長，他在學校期間碰到了什麼困難？原民專班的問題你們知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是碰到了學習的困難。"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼會有學習的困難？原民專班你們有關心嗎？因為這是為原民學生設置的專班，現在原民專班有什麼問題你們知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是我們請處長回答？"],["徐委員欣瑩：這位是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：處長。"],["陳處長坤昇：委員好。我是教育文化處處長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，教育文化處陳處長。"],["陳處長坤昇：是，謝謝委員的指教，針對原民專班，原民會每年都有固定補助來協助他們開辦相關的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，都有補助，你現在告訴我有錢、有錢，但你知道它發生什麼問題？有什麼不足？還有什麼是你們要加強協助這些年輕學子的嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：我想在師資的充實上，學校可能還要再繼續加油。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好，師資不足、資源分配不均，主委，這一塊陳處長講了，未來是不是可以積極改善？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以，會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們應該要有年度原民專班的評鑑機制，納入學生支持成效與後續追蹤，你們要有這樣的數據，或者要這樣去了解，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：另外我還要再繼續追問，除了原民專班的問題，我不知道你們有沒有發現他們在學校還有一些適應不良的地方，甚至感受到校園裡不友善的對待？這個你們有沒有委託相關學者研究？有沒有？"],["陳處長坤昇：報告委員，其實我們都有長期關心學生在學校受到歧視的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們怎麼去關心，怎麼去了解？"],["陳處長坤昇：我們跟教育部合作，在所有大專校院都設有原住民學生資源中心，透過原資中心關懷學校的原住民孩子，然後同步……"],["徐委員欣瑩：資源中心？如果他們沒有反映，資源中心有主動做任何調查、有任何數據的支撐嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：我們每年都會跟大專原資中心定期召開會議，進行相關業務的訪視，透過這個訪視來了解各個中心對學生的關懷與歧視宣導等各方面的相關工作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席看到很多學者的相關研究，發現有75%、達四分之三的原住民同學，在學校感受到不友善的對待，這個不友善對待有部分可能來自同學之間，然後有將近16%是來自於教職員，我們希望這一塊不會是壓垮原住民學生的最後一根稻草，這個部分也要加強改進，可以嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：下個會期進行業務報告的時候，希望可以看到你們在這部分的具體掌握和成效。","最後本席再用一點點時間請教，你們的書面業務報告中提到，行政院原住民族基本法推動會在卓榮泰院長主持之下，持續精進原住民族健康權、社福權等保障，以逐步縮減原住民族與社會各項指標的差距。主委，你知道這件事吧？開會的時候，你應該在現場吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請問有沒有盤點哪些指標落後？有沒有盤點？"],["羅赫踛處長：跟委員報告，所有相關社經都有一些差距，比如我們的平均餘命是差……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以有盤點所有差距，請問有沒有改善方案以及績效的期限？你們有沒有設定？"],["羅赫踛處長：有，我們有跨部會合作，包括跟衛福部合作，如果是跟薪資有關係……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，有沒有這個資料？"],["羅赫踛處長：都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有，會後提供給本席，可以嗎？"],["羅赫踛處長：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，原住民自治部分有部落公法人制度，這在10年前、105年就已經辦理法規草案的預告等，現在10年後，你們才找來幾個部落要初辦，很多原民團體都起來抗議，大家都在問，原住民自治最大的障礙是不是就是原民會？請問，你們現在試辦預計什麼時候會有成果，以及真正要開始落實，會不會又要再10年後？最後回答本席這個問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會，不會10年後，我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們預計試辦到什麼時候？預計什麼時候要真正實施？有沒有期程？"],["曾主任委員智勇：今年只是這5個部落的試辦，明年我們會擴大更多的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：擴大試辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：全面擴大……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席的問題是，你們有沒有預計什麼時候可以真正落實原住民自治？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個至少要兩、三年以上的期程。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，兩、三年，然後你說明年會擴大辦理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，這是原住民朋友的期待，不要再一個10年，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9183585b54911d4f1c1afe2edc2e0cc67672ba64a6a255857142f2a7614d0e9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:09:13 - 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1025,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時9分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部部長以及地礦中心的主任，還有台糖公司的代表。"],["主席：好，請相關單位。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，因為時間關係，就不一一問候。今天的問題比較具體一點，所以部長如果不熟的話，請台糖或是地礦中心代為回答，我沒有問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：之前我一直在追台糖的弊案，國營事業董事長職位拿來酬庸已經很扯了，結果給你當國營事業的董事長卻胡搞瞎搞，賤賣國營事業的土地，我講的就是吳乃仁，賤賣國營事業的土地，結果咧？結果現在判刑確定了，關也關出來了，問題是欠納稅人的錢要還，這就是為什麼我從去年就開始追。你敢這樣胡搞瞎搞，每一分每一毛全部都要給我要回來，所以我一直在追台糖到底有沒有積極的去追討。","上一次我跟你們討論的時候，你們說沒辦法、我們查不到他的財產。納稅人很困惑，沒有財產卻出入club聊宇宙大爆炸，享受奢侈晚宴，還能開BMW7系列，這什麼跟什麼啊！這個社會還有基本的公平正義嗎？還是只要有權有勢，我撈夠了，我撈飽了，納稅人賠了關我什麼事？「激皮皮」啊！所以我才要台糖好好去追蹤。","我之前有建議你們，依照強制執行法的規定，命他據實報告財產狀況，這件事台糖後來有沒有做？"],["胡司長文中：有，臺中地院已經在3月25號請這三位說出他的財產。"],["黃委員國昌：3月20號，今年3月20號嘛？"],["胡司長文中：今年3月25日，然後4月24號……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，我們一樣一樣來。為什麼今年3月25日才要他據實報告財產狀況？臺中地院在幹嘛？在混喔！欠多久了？等到在國會質詢了，臺中地院才忽然想起來強制執行法怎麼規定的，強制執行法不熟，幹什麼民事執行處的法官啊！"],["胡司長文中：這是司法單位的……我們大概也是……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！我請你們去做的事，你們有去做，我就不會為難你，聽得懂嗎？我上次質詢的時候就問你們，有沒有要求法院命他報告財產狀況，現在法院終於命他報告財產狀況了嘛，報告的結果是什麼？"],["蕭副總經理基淵：報告委員，吳乃仁等人並沒有回報啦……"],["黃委員國昌：蛤？等一下、停一下，法院要吳乃仁報告財產狀況，吳乃仁沒有回報？"],["蕭副總經理基淵：對。"],["黃委員國昌：現在吳乃仁是覺得怎麼樣，法院要他報告財產狀況，他也「激皮皮」啊！真的覺得自己是皇親國戚喔！臺中地院要求吳乃仁報告財產狀況，吳乃仁連甩都不甩，臺中地院接下來要做什麼事？"],["胡司長文中：臺中地院有什麼樣的動作，我們不太清楚，但我們台糖後來4月24號的時候就有給吳乃仁一封函，請他趕快歸還財產，然後4月30號的時候，我們台糖已經具體向臺中法院聲請管收這三位。"],["黃委員國昌：你有聲請要管收吳乃仁了嘛？"],["胡司長文中：是。"],["黃委員國昌：管收的理由是什麼？"],["胡司長文中：4月30號的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：管收的理由是什麼，沒有據實報告財產狀況？"],["胡司長文中：對，是。"],["黃委員國昌：要他報告，連報告都不報告。臺中地方法院裁了沒有？"],["胡司長文中：到目前為止我們還沒看到，我們是4月30號……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦，我們靜候，靜候臺中地方法院的判斷。","主席，你再給我1分鐘，再一題就好了，可以嗎？"],["主席：好，再1分鐘。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。來，請地礦中心。","我3月的時候有跟你們講，那個馬槽在那邊噴煙啦，然後你們答應我馬上要封，所以我親自跑一趟。"],["徐主任銘宏：是，對。"],["黃委員國昌：我親自去現場了以後，你們跟我說封好了，然後你也跟我說4月會完工。"],["徐主任銘宏：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那結果呢？來來來看一下測的結果，到5月去測還有氣體冒出，有超過10 ppm的硫化氫，所以現在狀況到底怎麼樣，這個還要拖多久？"],["徐主任銘宏：報告委員，現在我們正在跟陽管處做水保的申請，還要跟水保署一起來申請那個……"],["黃委員國昌：時間的關係，我最後只跟你們講重點。第一個……"],["徐主任銘宏：是，我們會做。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟你們講這件事，你們答應我要做……"],["徐主任銘宏：對。"],["黃委員國昌：結果做到現在還有10 ppm的硫化氫。我沒有住在那裡，但是有人住在那裡，那裡也有很多遊客，3月跟你們講了，結果到現在還在冒有毒氣體。拜託你們，不管是你們自己還是那邊的承包商，這個事情趕快處理，好不好？"],["徐主任銘宏：是。"],["黃委員國昌：可以喔？"],["徐主任銘宏：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌黃委員。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員呂玉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","呂玉玲"],"page_start":139,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 39案；二、處理或\n審查 114 年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21 案；三、繼續審\n查：(一)行政院函請審議「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美惠等18人\n擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「個人資料保護\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 四) 本院委員李坤城等16 人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委\n員陳亭妃等16人擬具「個人資料保護法第十二條、第二十七條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(七)本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145201_00003"}}},{"id":"161823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9fabe09c3720d31dec1afe2edc2e0cc67672ba64a6a25585757ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:04:32 - 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本席請郭部長請郭部長委員好部長好部長在您這個去年上任之前立法院有通過就去年的5月2號立法院有通過一個中小企業發展條例部分條文的修正草案"},{"start":34.58,"end":49.509,"text":"那他內容主要精神就是在於我們鼓勵中小企業能夠給員工加薪然後可以來扣抵他的所得這個盈利事業所得中來扣除就是所謂的"},{"start":50.269,"end":78.518,"text":"員工加薪企業減稅的這樣的一個通過這樣的一個法案那到現在剛好滿一年了所以本席想藉由今天來了解就是說我們經濟部有沒有在掌握這麼好的這種立法這個美意是不是有掌握以及我們在社會上實施的成效怎麼樣我們全國58萬個中小企業現在的情況如何"},{"start":79.278,"end":99.405,"text":"是 報告委員我們會等今年的報完稅以後會來跟財政部要這些資料來確認他們是不是有按照這樣的一個法可以來落實那這個法案通過之後有沒有一些宣傳或者是一些激勵的一些措施跟做法我們中小"},{"start":101.417,"end":123.286,"text":"我們有辦了17場的說明會那也透過工協會去推動讓這些中小微企業但是因為中小微企業我想有一部分可能就是因為這個加數太多了我們有大概167萬家的但是你透過那個工協會或組織這樣下去其實大家應該在業內大家應該也會知道啦"},{"start":123.906,"end":133.215,"text":"有一些微型的企業可能他們比較難以跟這個工協會互動也許有一部分的人他不太清楚有發函嗎沒有我們現在因為我們微型的企業大概就是這種30人以下的這個企業其實"},{"start":142.847,"end":160.163,"text":"很難啦上上下下很難不過我們都是努力在跟他們溝通也告訴他們有這樣的一個福利因為這一個我想這個部分我們經濟部這個實施起來不困難但是用心的做其實也是對民眾來說對他們來說也是對我們這個經濟部他們也會有很好的觀感我們通過這麼好的法"},{"start":169.671,"end":176.793,"text":"有沒有掌握就是說當然這個今年報稅完之後你有明確的數據那你們的掌握度大概如何"},{"start":180.137,"end":202.12,"text":"我們當然不會說一直等到9月這個數字拿到了因為我們認為能夠早一點加惠給這些中小微企業我們當然會全面的努力去做所以我們現在今年因為關稅的政策我們現在對中小微企業直接的給他們的協助"},{"start":202.88,"end":229.478,"text":"其實我們是做得非常的深我們從利用AI的學習來提升他們的效益然後利用ASCO來幫助他們降低成本所以這裡面包括很多包括也是一樣我們會跟他們介紹這些我們政府對中小微企業給他們哪一些福祉我想這一部分會擴大擴大讓他們知道這樣的一個生活"},{"start":230.138,"end":247.591,"text":"因為這個立法的美意我們希望是真的能夠加惠到對我們企業中小企業甚至我們一千萬的勞工我希望他們都可以有感但是最後一點就是說我們也不得不去預防就是有一些"},{"start":249.432,"end":274.73,"text":"這個可能企業他會不會利用模糊的加薪的定義透過會計的這個操作來獲得減稅優惠但實際上勞工並沒有拿到增加的這樣的薪資這個部分我們要請經濟部這裡也要特別的來注意是是謝謝委員垂詢好OK好謝謝徐欣盈委員那下一位請呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":999,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時4分）謝謝主席，本席請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。部長，在您上任之前，去年5月2號，立法院有通過中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案，主要精神就是在於鼓勵中小企業能夠給員工加薪，然後可以從他的營利事業所得額中來扣除，就是我們通過了所謂員工加薪、企業減稅的一個法案。到現在已經滿一年了，所以本席想藉由今天來瞭解的就是，我們經濟部有沒有在掌握這麼好的立法美意，以及我們在社會上實施的成效怎麼樣？全國58萬個中小企業，現在的情況如何？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會等今年報完稅以後，跟財政部要這些資料，來確認他們是不是有按照這樣的規定來落實。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個法案通過之後，有沒有一些宣傳或者是一些激勵的措施跟作法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有辦了17場的說明會，也透過公協會去推動，讓這些中小微企業……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，很好。"],["郭部長智輝：但是因為中小微企業，有一部分可能因為家數太多了，我們有大概167萬家的中小微企業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你透過公協會或組織這樣下去，其實在業內，大家應該也會知道啦，再加上新聞的宣布……"],["郭部長智輝：有一些微型的企業可能他們比較難以跟公協會互動，也許有一部分的人不太清楚，不過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有發函嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有辦法？"],["郭部長智輝：因為微型企業就是30人以下的企業，其實很難啦，上上下下很難，不過我們都努力在跟他們溝通，也告訴他們有這樣一個福利。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我想這個部分經濟部實施起來不困難，但是用心地做，其實對民眾來說或對企業主來說，也會對我們經濟部有很好的觀感嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是，應該的，這個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們通過這麼好的法，有沒有掌握？當然，今年報稅完之後你會有明確的數據，你們的掌握度大概如何？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然不會一直等到9月這個數字拿到，因為我們認為能夠早一點嘉惠這些中小微企業，我們當然會全面的努力去做。今年因為關稅的政策造成我們……我們現在對中小微企業直接給的協助，其實是做得非常的深，我們利用AI的學習來提升他們的效益，然後利用ESCO來幫助他們降低成本，所以這裡面包括很多，我們也會跟他們介紹政府對中小微企業的一些福祉，我想這一部分會擴大，讓他們知道這樣的一個成果。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，這個立法的美意，我們希望是真的能夠嘉惠我們的企業、中小企業，甚至是我們1,000萬的勞工，我希望他們都可以有感。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後一點，我們也不得不去預防，有一些企業會不會利用模糊的加薪定義，透過會計的操作，來獲得減稅優惠，但實際上勞工並沒有拿到增加的薪資，這個部分我們請經濟部也要特別的來注意。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員垂詢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位請呂玉玲委員，呂玉玲委員，呂玉玲委員不在。","最後一位是黃國昌委員，請黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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部長好剛剛聽了台中的這個盧委員的講話我快要吐血了他說他們不要火力發電廠因為要犧牲台中人的健康但是他跟所有藍白委員竟然舉手支持河山廠繼續重啟研議犧牲我們屏東人的生命財產安全這有什麼邏輯啊 法定人你認同這樣的論調嗎"},{"start":63.087,"end":89.535,"text":"電不是我的這個專長所以這個各位委員的這個意見我們都尊重好 部長那我想我們核三廠二號基因在今年5月17號我們依法除役這個是我們照這個相關的法規核安統法的法規但是很遺憾的藍白委員藉由這個修改核管法甚至這個也藉由這個公投案"},{"start":90.177,"end":112.168,"text":"重啟了這個核三廠的一個恢復運轉的一個公投案用全國人的一個公投案來決定我們屏東人的這個生命財產的安全我個人非常不能夠接受啦我想部長也是屏東人部長那賴總統也講得很清楚這個我們核電的議題政府會遵照兩個必須跟三個原則來審慎處理"},{"start":113.905,"end":130.921,"text":"那第一個就是核安會必須依據依法來訂定一個安全審查的一個程序第二個台電也必須依這個程序自主評估有沒有重啟的條件跟成本的效應那三個原則更重要的就是要核安無虞核非料有解社會共識部長"},{"start":133.183,"end":150.491,"text":"就經濟部的立場目前會遵照這個原則來做處理嗎是的一定的一定喔部長那我想我們大家都在關心這個目前這個運轉40年的這個河山廠的機組到底能不能安全運轉我想請台電的副總目前你們的評估狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":153.388,"end":177.163,"text":"跟委員報告,即便全世界所有的核能機組有研議運轉了40年都必須要停下來做所有的神聖的安全的檢查之後核廢料你們可以處理嗎?對核廢料可以處理嗎?現在核三廠的燃料池的漆子也將近滿了我們預估如果它即便能夠再重新再重啟的話大概只能夠維持大概是3到4年左右的空間而已"},{"start":177.483,"end":198.118,"text":"是啊 所以我在這邊還是要要求我們經濟部跟台電相關單位那我要講清楚啦不要隨著這個藍白立委一定要亂講那我們的回答總是似是而非我覺得這樣非常的不負責任我們到底未來這個走向要怎麼樣我們都尊重這樣一個機制運作但是不是藉由一個"},{"start":199.219,"end":211.476,"text":"隨便一個公投 其他公共就會要重啟 我覺得我們不能夠接受這樣的論調那部長我想剛剛很多委員都在關心我們的能源政策那我知道部長都很用心所以我想"},{"start":213.055,"end":238.608,"text":"我們還是希望能夠積極去發展再生能源這一塊我想這部長應該也是一直在努力但是目前我們的2025年要達到的20%的比例目前大概有些許的一個落後未來我們怎麼樣來積極來努力是 報告委員我想我們從這個再生能源四個構面去努力包括風電 包括太陽能包括水利 包括地熱所以我們會在2026年的11月"},{"start":241.851,"end":243.618,"text":"來打標 再生能源20%"},{"start":245.407,"end":271.941,"text":"但是我還是要提醒部長部長因為我們有些的案子都必須跨部會來整合包含農電也好漁電也好甚至這個風力發電很多的案子但是跨部會整合上面我們總是聽到有些界面上處理上各部會有各部會的想法跟堅持所以造成這個推進上有一些的阻礙那部長是不是可以承諾來協助解決這些問題我們現在在加強做這個協商"},{"start":272.941,"end":289.985,"text":"包括在農電的部分包括在漁電的部分這個太陽能所以我們可能會先在這個屏東有一部分的這個希望能夠把光電趕快那邊有比較大的這個不是耕種的地我們會優先在那邊"},{"start":292.711,"end":311.891,"text":"因為它是不適合耕種的所以我們是優先在那邊建立這個地面型的這個光電是 部長那我最後還是要提醒一個問題就是我們國內的太陽能的業者他們發現了中國大陸用洗產地的方式藉由東南亞把這個太陽能的模組進來到台灣"},{"start":313.192,"end":326.661,"text":"經濟部有掌握這樣的資訊嗎?我們有掌握,完全不允許紅色供應鏈的模組進來部長,我們掌握到一個訊息2022年從東南亞進口的產品不到10%到2024年變成50%今年一到二月就80幾%了這非常的恐怖我們現在會禁止他們使用"},{"start":336.581,"end":344.352,"text":"那針對這樣子的我們有什麼樣的一個強制的一個緊急防衛罪的一個機制來做處理嗎是有"},{"start":347.13,"end":367.704,"text":"我們有防止他們的就是說我們美國有美國針對這樣的他們有科與高關稅的一個防衛稅的機制我們會這個禁止他們使用然後海關也會查核一旦查到了一旦查到了第一次罰款60萬第二次300萬第三次取消這個進口的這個執照部長最後我還是要提醒"},{"start":369.425,"end":391.404,"text":"這個有中國大陸用假外資來投資來投入我們台灣的一些案子我們必須要嚴重徹查這是國安危機啊是這一部分我們會要求投資師嚴格的審查尤其藉由東南亞國家的一個假外資他們甚至用這樣的方式包裝之後進來投尤其針對我們一些公家軍事設施的部分"},{"start":391.804,"end":397.616,"text":"報告委員這個我們都有掌握啦有掌握啦我們會看他後面的這個他的結構他的資金結構跟他的股東結構好部長謝謝是謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":961,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時58分）謝謝主席，有請郭部長、能源署代理署長跟台電的副總，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請部長跟相關單位。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好。剛剛聽了臺中羅委員的講話，我快要吐血了！他說他們不要火力發電廠，因為要犧牲臺中人的健康，但是他跟所有藍白委員竟然舉手支持核三廠繼續重啟、延役，犧牲我們屏東人的生命財產安全，這是什麼邏輯啊？部長，你認同這樣的論調嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：電不是我的專長，所以各位委員的意見我們都尊重。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，核三廠二號機在今年5月17號依法除役，這是我們依照相關核安法的法規，但是很遺憾的，藍白委員藉由修改核管法，甚至也藉由重啟核三廠恢復運轉的公投案，用全國人民的公投案來決定屏東人的生命財產安全，我個人非常不能夠接受，我想部長也是屏東人。部長，賴總統也講得很清楚，核電議題政府會遵照兩個必須跟三個原則來審慎處理：第一個，核安會必須依法來訂定安全審查的程序；第二個，台電也必須依這個程序自主評估有沒有重啟條件跟成本效益。另外三個原則更重要，就是要核安無虞、核廢料有解、社會共識。部長，就經濟部的立場，目前會遵照這個原則來處理嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，一定的。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們大家都在關心到目前已運轉40年的核三廠機組到底能不能安全運轉，我想請問台電的副總，目前你們的評估狀況怎麼樣？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：跟委員報告，即便全世界所有的核能機組有延役，運轉了40年都必須要停下來做審慎的、安全的檢查之後才能再做決定。"],["徐委員富癸：核廢料你們可以處理嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：現在核三廠的燃料池也將近滿了啦，我們預估，即便它能夠重新再重啟的話，大概只能夠維持三到四年左右的空間而已。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊，所以我在這邊還是要要求我們經濟部跟台電相關單位，話要說清楚，不要隨著藍白立委在那裡「黑白講」，我們的回答總是似是而非，我覺得這樣非常的不負責任。我們到底未來的走向要怎麼樣，我們都尊重這樣一個機制的運作，但是不是藉由隨便一個公投，這樣隨便說一說就要重啟，我覺得我們不能夠接受這樣的論調。","部長，剛剛很多委員都在關心我們的能源政策，我知道部長很用心，我們還是希望能夠積極去發展再生能源這一塊，我想這個也是部長一直在努力的，但是我們在2025年要達到的20%的比例，目前大概有些許的落後，未來我們怎麼樣積極來努力？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想我們從再生能源四個構面去努力，包括風電、太陽能、水力及地熱，所以我們會在2026年11月來達標，就是再生能源20%。"],["徐委員富癸：但我還是要提醒部長，因為我們有些案子都必須跨部會來整合，包含農電也好、漁電也好，甚至風力發電，有很多的案子，但是在跨部會整合上，我們總是聽到在有些介面上、處理上，各部會有各部會的想法跟堅持，所以造成推進上有一些阻礙。部長是不是可以承諾來協助解決這些問題？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在在加強協商啦，包括農電、漁電及太陽能，所以我們可能會先在屏東，有一部分的……希望能夠就光電趕快來做，那邊有比較大的、不適耕種的地……"],["徐委員富癸：不利耕地的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會優先在那邊來做，因為那是不適合耕種的地，所以我們會優先在那邊建立地面型的光電。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我最後還是要提醒一個問題，國內的太陽能業者發現中國大陸用洗產地的方式，藉由東南亞，把太陽能的模組進來到臺灣，經濟部有掌握這樣的資訊嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個我們有掌握，完全不允許紅色供應鏈的模組進來。"],["徐委員富癸：是，部長，我們掌握到一個訊息，2022年從東南亞進口的產品不到10%，到2024年變成50%，今年1到2月就超過80%了，這個非常的恐怖啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在會禁止他們使用。"],["徐委員富癸：針對這個部分，我們有什麼強制的緊急防衛稅的機制來做處理嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是有，我們有防止他們，就是說我們……"],["徐委員富癸：美國針對這樣的情形，他們有課以高關稅的防衛稅機制。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會禁止他們使用，然後海關也會查核，一旦查到，第一次罰款60萬，第二次罰300萬，第三次取消進口的執照。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，最後我還是要提醒，有中國大陸用假外資來投入我們臺灣的一些案子，我們必須要嚴重徹查，這是國安危機啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，針對這個部分，我們會要求投資司嚴格審查。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其藉由東南亞國家的假外資，他們甚至用這樣的方式包裝之後進來投，尤其是針對我們一些公家、軍事設施的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個我們都有掌握啦！"],["徐委員富癸：有掌握了？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會看他後面的資金結構跟股東結構。"],["徐委員富癸：好，部長謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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請好 謝謝主席 有請部長來 請部長"},{"start":28.973,"end":52.223,"text":"先給我第一張看一下好 部長好部長 想跟你先請問一下我們看這一則新聞核電機組陸續除役台電證明台中的電廠又沒量 屢創新低那台電也間接的證明盧修煙任內空污排放比2016年降低76%對嗎這我請台電來跟你們解釋台電對嗎 這你們的新聞稿"},{"start":58.359,"end":82.117,"text":"是,因為這個是台電跟台中市這種所以他在上任時有372億度那減去去年的272億度大概大降了超過100億度電,對嗎?是好,那這個是我們現階段看到了台電間接承認我們台中市一直以來都在往減煤減排的方向在進行可是我們看下一張"},{"start":84.192,"end":108.792,"text":"部長我還要延續5月1號的質詢部長你還記得5月1號我們兩個之間的對話嗎當時我問你火力發電會不會達到100%將近100%然後你跟我講這個機率很小那你知道在4月27到5月10號的這兩週14天內有12天有佔比突破90%的有14天有8天超過98%"},{"start":110.794,"end":130.298,"text":"有五天超過99%有兩天超過100%相比部長告訴我台灣進入非核家園未來約84%電力將有火力發電支撐還沒進入非核家園的承諾就已經破功了嘛部長你怎麼回應"},{"start":133.407,"end":145.453,"text":"我看數字的這個顯示嘛那如果委員認為這樣是火力全開我不反對又不反對前幾天不是說沒有火力全開嗎"},{"start":146.773,"end":169.634,"text":"還是你要認為火力九成九開就是不叫火力全開可是我現在問你的問題是你當時告訴我84%支撐所謂的火力發電來支撐結果沒有啊事實證明都超過90%再來我那天也問你晚上無風無雨你告訴我所謂的機率很小"},{"start":170.675,"end":186.342,"text":"平均發電在87%但今天我要看我們下一張圖核三二號機退役之後5月18到5月22每一個表格都是來自於台電的公開資料"},{"start":187.438,"end":197.982,"text":"退場之後每天夜間的火力佔比都超高深夜火力佔比常常都99%以上5月18 995月19 1045月20 1015月21 1025月22 102你告訴我平均用電量晚上夜間87%相距甚遠部長這個你怎麼回應鐵針針的數據啊是"},{"start":217.182,"end":223.644,"text":"那你有沒有覺得你應該為你的言論而道歉當時你就在這樣子的現場在國會的殿堂"},{"start":224.929,"end":253.16,"text":"你講出這些數據完全沒有依據完全就是敷衍甜言蜜語來欺騙台中人你說87%嘛但現階段我們看到的數據全部最高達到102%那你要怎麼說你就是在某個時段裡面是這個樣子在某個時段裡面是這樣子平均值是這個樣子所以你還是在用平均值來算嘛"},{"start":254.144,"end":259.249,"text":"那你中火更是火力全開剛剛說你可以認同5月18中火10部燃煤機組一部稅休9部可以發4950我們現階段發電發到了4587超過9成所以你現階段火力不是全開嗎"},{"start":276.963,"end":298.189,"text":"九部藍莓機組 九部都開 你告訴我火力沒全開火力九成開 算不算火力全開還是你要這邊站那一層一部是稅休你稅休你沒有開嘛 你是因為稅休沒開不是因為你不開啊所以基本上已經是把最大用電的發電量將近把它全部5月13"},{"start":302.97,"end":331.192,"text":"那我想你應該要就事實來說我要再回到我們下一張圖剛剛我講的第一張圖片我們在說的我們現階段2016年到2024年我們一直努力減碳減排終於有了成效可是在最近我們看到台中電廠的用煤量是屢創新高這個圖表我相信你都看過了這是用煤量我們下一張圖"},{"start":333.561,"end":352.859,"text":"我們把去年5月14號跟今年5月14號來做對比慢慢往前推進到了去年的5月17到今年的5月17我們看出差距發電的總量我們這總和開始越來越高"},{"start":354.073,"end":371.903,"text":"台電官網上說友善降載還有環保限制的跳票就用台中人的費來泰帝啊減煤承諾就是現階段我們看到的完全跳票為了救電可以犧牲台中人的健康台中火力發電會不會達到100%部長你當時還是說機率很少嗎"},{"start":376.105,"end":380.812,"text":"對照數據郭部長就是睜眼說瞎話難道98 99不算接近100%嗎這說大話說習慣了搞不清楚狀況部長我必須要講你就是說謊你就是騙子"},{"start":391.826,"end":419.705,"text":"你現階段你就是98%的騙子但是我沒有說你是100%的騙子因為你認為98%不是趨近於100%嗎所以我們現階段火力發電長年為全台供電台中市就要承受PM2.5超標肺癌居高不下口口聲聲的減煤 以氣換煤還有發展綠能你就是要告訴全民你的非核家園就是火力家園"},{"start":420.626,"end":439.58,"text":"所以我要跟你講中火是全球最大最老舊的啞鈴界藍莓電廠什麼時候要除疫什麼時候要給台中人健康部長你可不可以回應還是你要再繼續說謊還是你死不承認部長上一次5月1號講到現在您今天選擇沉默以對嗎還是說不出來還是啞口無言"},{"start":449.414,"end":470.513,"text":"部長 可以給我一些回應嗎那你給我時間講嗎請說好 這個所有發電的內容都是我們跟台中市政府合議的框架之內的數字這樣你知道嗎現階段你口口聲聲說合議的框架內啦"},{"start":471.482,"end":494.581,"text":"但是我們看到的發電總和所以你的意思就是說是經過台中市政府同意所以台中市政府他發證照給你你就可以這樣子不斷的使用今天我們看到數字超標你推給台中市政府合議的框架然後拿這些甜言蜜語繼續告訴民眾沒有啊台中市同意啊這個是在合議的框架之內在運作"},{"start":495.982,"end":512.58,"text":"你當然會這樣講可是我現階段跟你講的是2025年拿2024年你明明可以進步你現階段就是退步你還在用合議的框架你還在用這些數據平均量來告訴台中人沒有啊我們有持續的減煤減淡"},{"start":516.183,"end":540.271,"text":"謝謝主席我要講的是台中人的健康不是給你這樣隨意糊弄台中人的健康是台中市政府允許的範圍之內喔允許的範圍我們希望你越來越好我們在做的生煤自治條例也被中央廢除我們都希望能夠持續的減煤減碳但是中央就是在其中杯葛尤其經濟部的錯誤能源政策造成台中人最後健康損失"},{"start":540.971,"end":565.443,"text":"所以我們要再一次的抗議台中人應該要站起來我們更呼籲經濟部重視台中人的健康好我們經濟部非常重視所有全國國人的健康好 不好意思因為我下來了你又在講話所以我要回應你沒有啦沒有啦你如果今天重視的話今天麻煩你把真正的發電量能夠降低而不是我們看到了跟去年來對比我們的發電量屢創新高好 OK不要講了"},{"start":570.816,"end":574.481,"text":"再講我們等一下還要處理那個處理法案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時48分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，我想先請問一下，我們看這則新聞，核電機組陸續除役，台電證明台中電廠用煤量屢創新低，台電也間接證明盧秀燕任內空污排放比2016年降低76%，對嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請台電來跟你說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：台電，對嗎？這是你們的新聞稿。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：因為這個是台電和臺中市政府……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以他在上任的時候有372億度，減去去年的272億度，大概大降超過100億度電，對嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個是我們現階段看到的，台電間接承認臺中市一直以來都在往減煤、減排的方向進行，可是我還是要延續5月1日的質詢，部長，你還記得5月1日我們兩個之間的對話嗎？當時我問你火力發電會不會達到100%或將近100%，你跟我說這個機率很小，你知道在4月27日至5月10日這兩週，14天內有12天占比突破90%，有8天超過98%，有5天超過99%，有2天超過100%，相比部長告訴我臺灣進入非核家園，未來約84%電力將由火力發電支撐，還沒進入非核家園的承諾就已經破功了。部長，你怎麼回應？"],["郭部長智輝：我看數字的顯示，如果委員認為這樣是火力全開，我不反對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：又不反對？前幾天不是說沒有火力全開嗎？還是你認為火力九成九開，就不叫火力全開？我現在問你的問題是，你當時告訴我84%由火力發電來支撐，結果沒有啊！事實證明都超過90%啊！","再來，那一天我也問你，晚上無風無雨，你告訴我所謂的機率很小，平均發電在87%，但今天我們來看下一張圖，核三廠二號機退役之後，5月18號到5月22號，每一個表格都是來自於台電的公開資料，退場之後，每天夜間的火力占比都超高，深夜火力占比常常都99%以上，5月18號99%、5月19號104%、5月20號101%、5月21號102%、5月22號102%，跟你告訴我的平均用電量夜間87%相距甚遠，部長，這個你怎麼回應？鐵錚錚的數據啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你有沒有覺得你應該為你的言論而道歉？當時你就在這樣的現場、在國會的殿堂，你講出這些數據，完全沒有依據、完全就是敷衍，用甜言蜜語來欺騙臺中人，你說87%嘛！但是現階段我們看到的數據最高達到102%，那你要怎麼說？"],["郭部長智輝：在某個時段裡面是這樣子……"],["羅委員廷瑋：在某個時段裡面是這樣子？"],["郭部長智輝：並不是所有的平均值是這樣子。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你還是在用平均值來算嘛！中火更是火力全開，剛剛說你可以認同……"],["郭部長智輝：我並沒有用平均值來算，這是委員自己的論述。"],["羅委員廷瑋：5月18號中火10部燃煤機組，1部歲修，9部可以發電至4,950，我們現階段發電到了4,587，超過九成，所以現階段火力不是全開嗎？9部燃煤機組，9部都開，你告訴我火力沒全開？"],["郭部長智輝：它是10部喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：火力九成開，算不算火力全開？還是你要在這邊戰那一成？"],["郭部長智輝：總共是10部，你說9部開叫作火力全開……"],["羅委員廷瑋：1部是歲修，歲修的沒有開嘛！你是因為歲修沒開，不是因為你不開啊！基本上已經是把最大用電的發電量將近把它全部……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們評估它不需要開，所以讓它下來歲修嘛！"],["羅委員廷瑋：5月13號到5月20號，我們直接看……"],["郭部長智輝：你應該就事實來說，而不是用這樣來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：回到下一張圖，剛剛我講的，第一張圖片我們在說的，現階段2016年到2024年，我們一直努力減碳減排，終於有了成效，可是在最近我們看到台中電廠的用煤量是屢創新高，這個圖表我相信你都看過了，這是用煤量。我們把去年5月14號跟今年5月14號來做對比，慢慢往前推進，從去年的5月17號到今年的5月17號，我們看出了差距，發電的總量開始越來越高，台電官網上說友善降載，還有環保限制的跳票，就用臺中人的肺來代替啊！現階段我們看到減煤承諾是完全跳票，為了救電，可以犧牲臺中人的健康，臺中火力發電會不會達到100%？部長，你當時還說機率很少嘛！對照數據，郭部長就是睜眼說瞎話啊！難道98%、99%不算接近100%嗎？說大話說習慣了，搞不清楚狀況！部長，我必須要講，你就是說謊，你就是騙子，現階段你就是98%的騙子，但我沒有說你是100%的騙子，因為你認為98不是趨近於100，所以我們現階段火力發電長年為全臺供電，臺中市就要承受PM2.5超標，肺癌居高不下，口口聲聲說減煤、以氣換煤，還有發展綠能，你就是要告訴全民，你的非核家園就是火力家園！所以我要跟你講，中火是全球最大、最老舊的亞臨界燃煤電廠，什麼時候要除役？什麼時候要給臺中人健康？部長，你可不可以回應？還是你要再繼續說謊？還是你死不承認？部長，從上一次5月1號講到現在，您今天選擇沉默以對嗎？還是說不出來？還是啞口無言？部長，可以給我一些回應嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你可以給我時間講嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：請說。"],["郭部長智輝：所有發電的內容都是我們跟臺中市政府合議框架之內的數字，這樣你知道嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：現階段你口口聲聲說合議的框架內，但是我們看到的發電總合……"],["郭部長智輝：不是現階段啊！這個在以前就已經定下這樣的框架了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你的意思就是經過臺中市政府同意，臺中市政府發證照給你，你就可以這樣不斷地使用？"],["郭部長智輝：這是可以運轉的情況啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天我們看到數字超標，你推給臺中市政府合議的框架，然後拿這些甜言蜜語繼續告訴民眾：「沒有，臺中市同意啊！」"],["郭部長智輝：這是在合議框架之內運作，你不能夠這樣子講。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你當然會這樣講，可是我現階段跟你講的是，2025年拿2024年來看，明明可以進步，但現階段就是退步，你還在用合議的框架，你還在用這些數據、平均量來告訴臺中人：「沒有啊！我們有持續減煤減碳。」"],["主席：羅委員，我已經給你一倍的時間了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝主席。我要講的是臺中人的健康，不是給你這樣隨意糊弄……"],["郭部長智輝：臺中人的健康是臺中市政府允許的範圍之內喔！你不能夠這樣子斷章取義喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：允許的範圍，我們希望你越來越好，我們在做的生煤自治條例也被中央廢除，我們都希望能夠持續減煤減碳，但中央就是在其中杯葛，尤其經濟部的錯誤能源政策，造成臺中人最後健康損失，所以我們要再一次抗議，臺中人應該要站起來，我們更呼籲經濟部重視臺中人的健康。"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部非常重視所有國人的健康。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，因為我下來了，你又在講話，所以我要回應你。"],["主席：沒有啦、沒有啦！就同樣的話了……"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果你今天重視的話，麻煩你今天把真正的發電量能夠降低，而不是我們看到跟去年來對比，我們的發電量屢創新高。"],["主席：OK，不要講了！我們等一下還要處理法案欸！","下一位請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。我們中午不休息，就把今天議程處理完畢。","李坤城委員、李坤城委員、李坤城委員不在。","下一位請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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這個宣告就很大了因為所謂AI的基礎設施他包括說從過去傳統的CPU之外以後我們的要發展更多的GPU TPU甚至我們要有更好的儲存系統過去都是放在電腦裡面"},{"start":71.195,"end":89.022,"text":"現在可能要透過雲端的儲存來有更多的網路的運算而且這個運算必須要高寬頻必須要低延遲這都是整個AI基礎設施最關鍵的地方實際上黃仁勳做這樣的一個宣告之後我馬上就注意到5月19號"},{"start":91.122,"end":105.472,"text":"馬來西亞他也馬上宣告他要以華為的晶片為核心然後發展所謂馬來西亞國家級的AI基礎設施所以看起來馬來西亞大概就是他也有他的一個"},{"start":106.272,"end":129.248,"text":"整體的戰略的佈局而且這個戰略佈局大概會跟黃仁勳在台灣要組的AI基礎設施這看起來就有點壁壘分明了因為我們黃仁勳NVIDIA是以台積電的晶片為主所以部長你怎麼看這樣國際情勢這樣世界科技的競爭那台灣未來的一個角色呢是啊 報告委員我想這個全球來看"},{"start":131.91,"end":146.175,"text":"在AI的這個領域裡面當然最大的就是美國那中國的AI當然是在目前來看排名是第二名那華為當然是中國最大的半導體機構那今天這個"},{"start":149.237,"end":166.492,"text":"黃榮勳先生來台灣那麼建立他的這個這個大的這個基地啊海外的基地在台北主要是看上我們的人才主要是看上台灣的這個人才以及台灣在這個半導體供應鏈充分的這樣的一個架構那我相信這個馬來西亞他站在這個這個"},{"start":172.31,"end":201.65,"text":"對立面啦可以講說它對立面當然就跟壁壘分明了嘛一個是以華為晶片為主的一個我們NVIDIA是以台積電的晶片啦這個就有一點是不一樣的走向了所以現在就是競爭的開始欸競爭的開始但是我們台灣呢是這個A組加A組啦那他們是這個B組加B組我們台灣有最強的整個AI的供應鏈嘛都在台灣所以我們是最強的一組啊但是我覺得在這個時候我們進步很重要"},{"start":202.41,"end":216.506,"text":"部長我們是不是要當黃仁勳未來在台灣整體布局的一個靠山這沒問題吧我們現在不僅是做NVIDIA的靠山我們是做台積電的靠山"},{"start":217.807,"end":233.86,"text":"台積電的靠山台積電是世界最強的半導體公司沒有錯由台積電製造出來的晶片支持全球所有的AI的伺服器那麼這個算力基本上來自於AI伺服器的精算的能耐"},{"start":234.58,"end":252.498,"text":"我相信沒有世界沒有任何一個地方可以比台灣更優秀可以比台灣更優秀所以可以看得出來當他把這個研發中心跟運作中心設立在台北的時候世界各地的數位牧民大概也會聚集到台南數位牧民嘛"},{"start":252.918,"end":259.143,"text":"所以現在我們也要處理這個外國人才的一個讓他招攬進來那也是強調怎麼讓數位慕名讓他可以很快速的落腳台灣這個都要做但是我還有幾個方向事實上我在這裡提出一些看法我覺得部長應該要來參考第一就是我們在發展AI基礎設施這個很多是科技產業自己要跳下去做那政府可以做什麼第一個就是在"},{"start":280.519,"end":289.23,"text":"在這個租稅上的一個優惠讓這些科技產業更有競爭力這是第一個第二個因為馬來西亞他結合華為晶片要發展他們國家級的這個AI基礎設施我們台灣呢"},{"start":295.438,"end":312.837,"text":"台灣一樣要面對這件事情那所以我們這一次跟美國的一個談判在這90天中我們必須要盯緊馬來西亞的稅率跟我們稅率的差距不要因為稅率的差距變成我們未來在做競爭時候的一些小劣勢"},{"start":313.857,"end":329.706,"text":"是的,我會參考這個委員的這個訊息所以盯緊馬來西亞他們跟美國的這一個關稅的台灣一定要這一點一定要注意好是的那第三個就是說因為黃仁勳有講他說他所需要的晶片"},{"start":330.606,"end":346.036,"text":"就是台積電COWAS的晶片尤其現在最新的COWAS L所以黃仁勳都講了說他想像不到除了COWAS以外沒有其他選擇這是黃仁勳講的那我們也知道現在整個COWAS的一個佈局在"},{"start":346.516,"end":364.626,"text":"嘉義的科學園區正在大概今年九月第一個廠就好了所以整個台積電COWAS的布局跟未來黃仁勳所要發展的AI基礎設施他在台灣的NVIDIA的未來的帝國的一個產生這一個COWAS的一個基地就很重要"},{"start":365.086,"end":381.258,"text":"那所謂KOWAS 嘉義這一個 呃 嘉科的KOWAS又來自於高雄 台南他們生產的一個晶片所以咧 這部分就要講給國發會聽所以就是說 怎樣把整個南部交通的串聯 有夠重要"},{"start":381.858,"end":403.44,"text":"所以我們在說的高鐵橋下的道路台37線怎麼把所謂S郎大S郎大再擴大到嘉義這一段就是連接到了把所有的科學園區透過一條產業道路直接把它串聯起來這件事就是要緊加速加速這一條產業道路的建設第二個"},{"start":404.537,"end":425.041,"text":"第二個因應未來NVIDIA在台灣要建立帝國要有很多科技的人才國際的人才要來台灣國際的人才要來台灣但是台灣的空運不管是客運或是貨運太過依賴桃園機場尤其是在貨運的部分95.9%的貨運都是依賴桃園機場"},{"start":432.998,"end":440.282,"text":"第二個 高雄小館機場才佔1.79%所以你可以想像 萬一在航空機場塌下的時候他們的飛機出現一些小狀況他們塌下 我這裡的東西跑不進來"},{"start":447.901,"end":474.022,"text":"所以我們現在要趕快打造台灣另外一個以貨運為中心以貨運為概念的國際機場這件事我覺得這當然不是經濟部經濟部應該站在整個科技產業的佈局這件事應該在你們在行政院會報的時候都必須要拿出來講那國發會則無盤帶你們必須要趕快去建造台灣的貨運那不能夠單單"},{"start":476.064,"end":498.572,"text":"依賴桃園機場 一間來走好不好 來我們現在了解的程度是交通部在高雄推動雙港高雄在推動雙港 但是高雄高雄空港跟高雄海港沒有錯 沒有錯 這個都是一些計畫所以既然有這些計畫要怎麼加速那如果高雄因為又有宵禁的問題是不是還有其他地點來選擇這都要經過討論 是 好不好好 當然我們嘉義 我們水上機場也是一個"},{"start":504.274,"end":524.012,"text":"因為如果是以貨運為導向的我們並不是說這個要看客運來支撐但是如果以貨運的話嘉義的水上機場也是一個考量的因為剛剛就講的未來的NVIDIA晶片與CoreOS晶片沒有其他選擇那嘉義也是在這整個科技的世界大戰裡面我們佔有一席之地"},{"start":527.134,"end":535.227,"text":"整個政府 要來通盤的一個考量做NVIDIA 做台積電的後盾跟靠山 好不好是 謝謝委員吹詢好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":885,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時39分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請經濟部郭部長及國發會高副主委？"],["主席：請部長及副主委，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好！"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，黃仁勳宣告要在臺灣設NVIDIA的海外總部，這個海外總部代表一個意義，除了NVIDIA要在臺灣落地，要在這裡開始發展事業之外，最重要的是黃仁勳講的，未來NVIDIA不只是一個科技公司，它會變成AI的基礎設施公司。這個宣告就很大了！因為所謂AI的基礎設施包括從過去傳統的CPU之外，以後我們要發展更多的GPU、TPU，甚至我們要有更好的儲存系統，過去都是儲存在電腦裡面，現在可能要透過雲端儲存，所以需要更多的網路運算，而且這個運算必須要高寬頻、低延遲，這都是AI基礎設施很關鍵的地方。","實際上，黃仁勳做這樣的宣告之後，我馬上就注意到5月19日馬來西亞也馬上宣告，它要以華為的晶片為核心，發展馬來西亞國家級的AI基礎設施，所以看起來馬來西亞也有其整體的戰略布局，而且這個戰略布局大概會跟黃仁勳在臺灣要組的AI基礎設施，看起來就有點壁壘分明，因為黃仁勳、NVIDIA是以台積電的晶片為主。所以部長，你怎麼看這樣的國際情勢以及世界科技的競爭，臺灣未來的角色呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，以全球來看，在AI的這個領域裡面，當然最大的就是美國，中國的AI在目前來看是排名第二名，華為是中國最大的半導體機構，今天黃仁勳先生來臺灣建立大的海外基地在臺北，主要是看上我們的人才，主要是看上臺灣的人才，以及臺灣在半導體供應鏈充分的架構。我相信馬來西亞站在對立面，可以講它是站在對立面。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然就是會壁壘分明，一個是以華為晶片為主，NVIDIA是以台積電的晶片為主，這就有一點是不一樣的走向，所以現在就是競爭的開始。"],["郭部長智輝：是競爭的開始，但是我們臺灣是A組加A組，他們是B組加B組。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們臺灣有最強的AI供應鏈，這些都在臺灣，所以我們是最強的一組，但是我覺得在這個時候經濟部很重要，部長，我們是不是要當黃仁勳未來在臺灣整體布局的靠山，這沒問題吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在不僅是要做NVIDIA的靠山，我們也要做台積電的靠山，台積電是世界最強的半導體公司。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯。"],["郭部長智輝：由台積電製造出來的晶片支持全球所有AI的伺服器，基本上，它的算力可以支持來自於AI伺服器精算的能耐，我相信世界上沒有任何一個地方可以比臺灣更優秀，所以可以看得出來，當它把研發中心及運作中心設立在臺北的時候，世界各地的數位牧民大概也會聚集到臺灣來。"],["蔡委員易餘：針對數位牧民，所以現在我們也有在處理外國人才的招攬，也是強調怎麼讓數位牧民可以很快速地落腳臺灣，這些事情都要做，但是我還有幾個方向，事實上，我在這裡提出一些看法，我覺得部長應該要參考。第一個，我們在發展AI基礎設施，很多是科技產業自己要跳下去做，那政府可以做什麼？第一個，提供租稅上的優惠，讓這些科技產業更有競爭力，這是第一個。第二個，因為馬來西亞結合華為晶片要發展國家級的AI基礎設施，我們臺灣一樣要面對這件事情，所以我們這一次跟美國的談判，在這90天中我們必須要盯緊馬來西亞的稅率與我們稅率的差距，不要因為稅率的差距，變成我們未來在競爭時的一些小劣勢。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們會參考委員的垂詢。"],["蔡委員易餘：盯緊馬來西亞與美國的關稅稅率，臺灣在這一點上面一定要注意。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：第三個，黃仁勳有講他所需要的晶片就是台積電CoWoS晶片，尤其是現在最新的CoWoS-L，所以黃仁勳都講了，他想像不到除了CoWoS以外，沒有其他選擇，這是黃仁勳講的。我們也知道，現在整個CoWoS的布局是在嘉義的科學園區，大概今年9月第一個廠就好了，所以整個台積電CoWoS的布局，與未來黃仁勳所要發展的AI基礎設施，在臺灣NVIDIA未來帝國的產生，CoWoS基地是很重要的。然而嘉科的CoWoS又來自於高雄、臺南生產的晶片，這個部分我要說給國發會聽，所以怎麼樣把整個南部的交通串聯有夠重要。我們一直在講高鐵橋下的道路臺37線，怎麼把所謂S廊帶再擴大到嘉義這一段，把所有的科學園區透過一條產業道路直接串聯起來，這件事情很重要，加速這一條產業道路的建設。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，因應未來NVIDIA要在臺灣建立帝國，會有很多的科技人才、國際人才來到臺灣，但是臺灣的空運不管是客運或貨運，都太過依賴桃園機場，尤其是在貨運的部分，95.9%等於是96%的貨運都是依賴桃園機場，第二個高雄小港機場才占1.79%，所以你可以想像萬一桃園機場塞車的時候，或是他們的飛機又出現一些小狀況，如果塞車的話，這些東西就運不進來。所以我們現在要趕快打造臺灣另外一個以貨運為中心、以貨運為概念的國際機場，這件事我覺得當然不是經濟部的，不過經濟部應該站在整個科技產業的布局，你們在行政院會報的時候都必須要拿出來講，而國發會責無旁貸，你們必須要趕快去建造臺灣的貨運中心，不能夠單單依賴桃園機場一間來做，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在瞭解的進度是交通部要在高雄推動雙港，高雄空港和高雄海港，針對貨運的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯，這個都是一些計畫，既然有這些計畫，要怎麼加速，高雄因為又有宵禁的問題，是不是還有其他地點選擇，這都要趕快去討論，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然我們嘉義的水上機場也是一個可以考慮的地點，因為是以貨運為導向，我們並不是要靠客運來支撐，但是如果以貨運的話，嘉義的水上機場也是一個考量的地點，剛剛就講了，未來NVIDIA除了CoWoS晶片沒有其他選擇，嘉義在整個科技的世界大戰裡面也占有一席之地，政府要做通盤的考量，我們要做NVIDIA、台積電的後盾和靠山，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員垂詢。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝召委、謝謝部長。","現在請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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報告委員我想這個是通過了母法我們現在還缺乏那個執法可以執行的執法所以我們現在就是要讓整安會趕快把執法送出來然後讓台電可以根據這個執法下去去落實這樣"},{"start":111.493,"end":115.117,"text":"經濟部的部分呢經濟部是贊成樂觀集成這兩個前提然後三個原則我想這個就是核安的部分已經應該是不用再討論了應該我們算是安全就要趕快把執法執法落實然後台電根據這個執法去檢測"},{"start":130.695,"end":141.177,"text":"那三個原則我想還是一樣大家都非常清楚就是核安沒問題核廢料可以處理那全民有共識那核廢料就是甘氏儲存潮的計畫已經早啟動現在就是可能2025年就會完成了那系統設計的壽命為50年那甘廚做到了應該是核廢料也有解了"},{"start":152.6,"end":161.762,"text":"那社會共識的部分非常多的這個民調包括最近的禁新聞的民調都顯示說有過半的民眾55%以上的民眾都贊成所以這應該也算是社會共識所以研議的三個要件實際上都已經"},{"start":172.005,"end":181.588,"text":"已經具備了唯一沒有準備好的就是政策執行的勇氣啊那希望說這個部長要拿出你這個霸道總裁的這個霸氣啊趕快讓他實行啊讓我們的這個產業比較安定下來安心說我會有穩定供電啊"},{"start":191.531,"end":212.299,"text":"謝謝委員就這一部分我想公部門必須要依法依規來處理我剛才跟您報告我們母法通過了謝謝您但是我們現在趕快要把執法羅列出來然後大家按照法的框架之下大家努力的快速的把這件事情給完成"},{"start":212.659,"end":229.57,"text":"那也拜託部長在崇龐加速讓他們可以加速前進趕快你的關心我想一定會給他們增添很多的這個火力那另外講到火力我必須要講一下就是今天很多人問的河山場5月17日"},{"start":231.972,"end":248.594,"text":"停機三天才停機三天5月20號去年9月操作許可證就到齊的新達3號4號燃煤機組就啟動了加入電網這個是否屬實呢那我是不是請這個我們台電跟你回應一下好"},{"start":250.356,"end":278.83,"text":"是 跟委員報告喔 興達它的許可雖然到期了 但是它還沒有到初一興達的3號機是今年底才初一 然後4號機是明年底那許可到期之後 台電有跟趙雄市政府提出這個許可的審查演繹 它不能在審查中審查中你就可以自己脫開啦當時在這個興達更新改建的環評裡面 其實當時就有承諾這個興達的3號 4號機在被轉容量低於8%以下的時候 它可以運轉"},{"start":279.818,"end":304.683,"text":"是 那我可不可以再跟部長講一下這就是我想要指出的就是現在我們的政府對於延役這兩個字根本就是雙重標準新達三號機四號機早就已經沒有操作許可證了也不在常態的機組名單之上但是只要有缺電危機這些機組就可以立即起死回生重新啟用上網發電請問一下部長這樣算不算延役呢"},{"start":308.024,"end":312.507,"text":"有經過新的許可嗎 他在審查中就可以拿出來用了還是只要用電不夠的時候他們內部決定說 應急就可以立即上線了呢因為還在審查中嘛 是吧所以在那個環境裡面是被允許的啦就反觀核電不但機組狀態良好而且運轉穩定這個安全評鑑屢獲國際認同然後原班人馬原班體系都在結果現在連研議的"},{"start":338.084,"end":346.689,"text":"法都過了 你們現在還在想要說啊執法啊等等啊 我是覺得說是不是喔 應該不要再繼續雙標下去了趕快把你們拿新大電廠的這種喔 魄力拿來啟用河山廠這樣好不好 我們部長"},{"start":354.706,"end":372.854,"text":"大家一起努力好 謝謝那我是不是可以再問一下我們這個高副主委就是我們賴總統前幾天有表示國家應該要成立這個主權基金那請問一下國發會現在的 持的態度為何呢我們遵照行政院協議的"},{"start":375.326,"end":398.709,"text":"結果那現在台灣雖然沒有主權基金但是過去央行也曾說我們的四大基金勞保、勞退、國民年金跟退府基金雖然沒有主權基金之名但有主權基金之實那國發會的這個國發基金也有類似的功能您認為未來主權基金跟我們四大基金的投資邏輯上會有什麼大不同嗎"},{"start":400.11,"end":429.39,"text":"基本上所謂的四大基金比較是財務型操作的基金那我們國發基金是屬於策略投資型的基金那國際間的主權基金這兩種形態都有會是這個國家的它是要達到的政策性的目標來定那我們未來主權基金是會採取什麼樣的形態來設置目前還在研議當中所以還不是很清楚那有關於這個台灣的主權基金成立的裁員呢"},{"start":430.57,"end":453.361,"text":"也是在研議當中 國際間有財政盈餘 外匯存底還有他們自然資源的收益那有可能發債嗎當然是有可能就是不排除預計的發債對象跟他的規模嗎都還在研議當中所以意思就是說 在總統說之前是沒有縝密的規劃的"},{"start":454.522,"end":472.83,"text":"不是應該是說我們都有各我們都有一些國際間的我們也都有都有研議過國際間的基本的做法那我們基本上我們也有模擬如果國內要推動的時候我們可以採取什麼樣的做法可是基本上因為之前的討論大家都就是在"},{"start":473.43,"end":488.784,"text":"今年以前的這些討論其實沒有太多的共識那現在總統已經決定要宣誓要成立的時候那我們就會就中間可行的做法適合我們國內的情況我們來研立一些具體的策略跟方向"},{"start":489.404,"end":508.278,"text":"當然這個均無細言既然總統說了要做就是一定要做但是我們也希望說做的時候一定要多參考一些其他國家的例子當然新加坡的模式很多人都提起但是也不是沒有失敗的例子像挪威的主權基金第一季就高達"},{"start":509.539,"end":532.859,"text":"就虧損高達新台幣1.3兆元那我們希望說這個主權基金給這個國發會一點建議可以帶回去跨部會溝通第一就是一定要設立專法然後設計的制度絕對不能倉促上路那第二呢主權基金應該由獨立的法人運作由這個政府產業界跟學界共組"},{"start":533.74,"end":561.237,"text":"不要變成政治人事化人事政治化確保投資的專業性那未來呢也希望說這個推動主權基金的這個過程國發會不要只是配合的單位要去扮演這個設定制度的設計制度的這個領頭單位謝謝是謝謝謝謝張家俊剛才您提的其實都是最沒有共識中間的最有共識的部分謝謝張家俊委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時29分）謝謝召委，我想請經濟部郭部長，還有高副主委。","郭部長，立法院在2025年5月13日三讀修正通過核子反應器設施管制法第六條修正案，賦予核電廠延役或重啟的法律依據。之前你也曾表示過，如果修法通過，政府會在這個法規框架下來行事。請問經濟部是否已經開始研擬啟動延役的評估作業呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對於核管法的部分，我想必須要先設置一個法，來就安全的部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們已經通過了呀！這個核子反應器設施管制法第六條修正案已經賦予核電廠延役或重啟的法律依據了……"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["張委員嘉郡：至於你一直在講的核安、核廢料、社會共識等等，有關於核安，其實臺灣的核電長年在IAEA的國際評鑑中都是名列前茅，如果這樣的機組都不算安全的話，還有誰能夠過關呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個是通過了母法，我們現在還缺乏可以執行的子法……"],["張委員嘉郡：子法的部分，目前你們已經啟動……"],["郭部長智輝：所以現在就是核安會要趕快把子法送出來……"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["郭部長智輝：讓台電可以根據這個子法下去落實。"],["張委員嘉郡：經濟部的部分呢？經濟部是贊成、樂觀其成？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部就是這兩個前提、三個原則，我想這個……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是核安的部分，應該已經不用再討論了，我們應該算是安全……"],["郭部長智輝：核安的部分，就是要趕快把子法送出來……"],["張委員嘉郡：要根據子法來落實。"],["郭部長智輝：然後台電根據這個子法去檢測。至於三個原則，我想還是一樣，大家都非常清楚……"],["張委員嘉郡：核廢料……"],["郭部長智輝：就是核安沒問題，核廢料可以處理，全民有共識。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，核廢料的部分，乾式貯存場的計畫早已經啟動，可能2025年就會完成了，系統設計的壽命為50年，乾貯做到了，核廢料的部分也應該有解了。社會共識的部分，非常多民調，包括最近鏡新聞的民調，都顯示，過半數（55%以上）的民眾都贊成，這應該也算是社會共識。所以延役的三個要件實際上都已經具備了，唯一沒有準備好的就是政策執行的勇氣，希望部長要拿出霸道總裁的霸氣，趕快讓它實行，讓我們的產業比較安定下來，安心我們會穩定供電。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，就這一部分，我想公部門必須要依法依規來處理，我剛才跟您報告，我們母法通過了，謝謝您，但是我們現在要趕快把子法羅列出來，然後在這個法的框架之下，大家努力的、快速的把這件事情給完成。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，也拜託部長再從旁加速，讓他們可以加速前進、趕快，你的關心，我想一定會給他們增添很多火力。","另外，講到火力，我必須要講一下，就是今天很多人問的，核三廠5月17日停機，才停機3天，5月20日去年9月操作許可證到期的興達3號、4號燃煤機組就啟動，加入電網。這個是否屬實呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請台電跟你回應一下？"],["張委員嘉郡：好。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：跟委員報告，興達的許可雖然到期，但是它還沒有到除役，興達的3號機是今年底才除役，4號機是明年底……"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：許可到期之後，台電有跟高雄市政府提出許可展延的審查，目前它在審查中。"],["張委員嘉郡：審查中你就可以自己偷開啦！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：其實當時在興達更新改建的環評裡面就有承諾，興達的3號、4號機在備轉容量低於8%以下的時候可以運轉。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我可不可以再跟部長講一下？這就是我想要指出的，我們的政府對於「延役」這兩個字根本就是雙重標準，興達3號機、4號機早就已經沒有操作許可證了，也不在常態的機組名單之上，但是只要有缺電危機，這些機組就可以立即起死回生，重新啟用，上網發電。請問一下部長，這樣算不算延役呢？有經過新的許可嗎？它在審查中就可以拿出來用了，還是只要用電不夠的時候，內部決定應急，就可以立即上線呢？"],["郭部長智輝：因為還在審查中……"],["張委員嘉郡：是吧……"],["郭部長智輝：在那個環境裡面，是被允許的，這是允許的。"],["張委員嘉郡：反觀核電，不但機組狀態良好，而且運轉穩定，安全評鑑屢獲國際認同，原班人馬、原班體系也都在，現在連延役的法都過了，結果你們現在還在想子法等等，我覺得是不是應該不要再繼續雙標下去，趕快把你們對興達電廠的這種魄力拿來啟用核三廠，好不好？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：大家一起努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。我是不是可以再問一下高副主委？賴總統前幾天有表示，國家應該要成立主權基金。請問一下國發會現在持的態度為何呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們遵照行政院協議的結果。"],["張委員嘉郡：現在臺灣雖然沒有主權基金，但是過去央行也曾說，我們的四大基金，勞保、勞退、國民年金及退撫基金，雖然沒有主權基金之名，但有主權基金之實；國發會的國發基金也有類似功能。您認為未來主權基金與四大基金的投資邏輯上會有什麼大不同嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，所謂的四大基金比較是財務型操作的基金，國發基金是屬於策略投資型的基金，國際間的主權基金，這兩種型態都有，會視國家要達到的政策性目標來定，我們未來主權基金是會採取什麼樣的型態來設置，目前還在研議當中。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以還不是很清楚……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：那有關於臺灣主權基金成立的財源呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：也是在研議當中，國際間有財政盈餘、外匯存底，還有自然資源的收益……"],["張委員嘉郡：有可能發債嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然是有可能……"],["張委員嘉郡：有可能……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就是不排除。"],["張委員嘉郡：有預計的發債對象及規模嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：都還在研議當中。"],["張委員嘉郡：都還在研議當中，所以意思就是在總統說之前是沒有縝密規劃的？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不是，我們也都有研議過國際間的基本作法，基本上，我們也有模擬，如果國內要推動的時候，我們可以採取什麼樣的作法，可是因為之前的討論（就是在今年以前的討論）沒有太多共識，現在總統已經宣示決定要成立的時候，我們就會就中間可行的作法，以適合國內的情況，來研擬一些具體的策略及方向。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，君無戲言，既然總統說了要做，就是一定要做，但是我們也希望做的時候，一定要多參考一些其他國家的例子。當然新加坡的模式很多人都提起，但是也不是沒有失敗的例子，像挪威的主權基金第一季就虧損高達新臺幣1.3兆元。","我們希望就主權基金給國發會一點建議，可以帶回去跨部會溝通。第一，一定要設立專法，設計的制度絕對不能倉促上路。第二，主權基金應該由獨立的法人運作，由政府、產業界與學界共組，不要變成政治人事化、人事政治化，確保投資的專業性。未來也希望推動主權基金的過程，國發會不要只是配合的單位，要去扮演設計制度的領頭單位，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，謝謝委員，剛剛您提的，其實都是沒有共識中間的最有共識的部分，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員亭妃代）：謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢，謝謝部長，謝謝副主委。","請蔡易餘召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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是不是請國發會高副主委以及經濟部郭部長來 請高副主委跟郭部長副主委辛苦了不會副主委是這樣子 國發基金的效能跟它的資源分配我一直在關心國發基金可以改成北台灣發展基金"},{"start":37.728,"end":63.642,"text":"那麼多的基金項目啊投資的這些企業或者天使創業投資啊經濟委員會四個高雄立委台南一位嘉義坐在上面中南部的都是經濟委員會主要成員你看以國家基金投資的縣市比例全部都上百姓店"},{"start":68.227,"end":80.265,"text":"這樣87%中部寥寥可數3.36南部加起來也只過5.45這樣是不是可以改名叫北台灣發展基金"},{"start":82.044,"end":106.692,"text":"委員其實我們也有發現到也有就是有點重北輕南這是過去16個月的統計啊所以我們原來也知道我們原來在創業天使的投資方案我們原來是準備在1月21號有一個南部服務是啦我知道啦但是因為你的預算被凍結所以沒辦法解凍之後你們趕快去成立但是不是一個人的編制喔"},{"start":107.012,"end":133.648,"text":"當然當然不是一個人編制不是創投工會派一個人去那邊是你要背一格喔不會不會我是希望你國發基金撥一半人力成立辦公室或者國發基金全部移到高雄去恐怕因為我們國發基金只有二十幾個人三十幾位我們真正就是大概只有大概其他就是我們正式的你要拿出決心啦一撥一半人力去我想人不是很重要就是工人要發揮才是更重要人為什麼不重要"},{"start":134.789,"end":149.37,"text":"執密副執密組長從不從台北你請創投工會委託創投工會去那邊設立派一個人去找一個辦公室坐一個人的椅子你就知道你有服務嗎不會我們一定會我們一定會我是希望說啊我不要用決議"},{"start":150.652,"end":175.211,"text":"我不用附帶舉意 我要要求你國發基金啊你要拿出具體的做法 不是光說不練你看這數據多多 我要怎麼對這個南部對高雄 對台南 對嘉義的這些新創這些年輕人我怎麼交代高雄市兩家而已你過去16個月核准了51家全部在中北部 全部在北部"},{"start":176.212,"end":178.301,"text":"高雄只有兩家 加起來1100萬"},{"start":182.299,"end":206.481,"text":"其實我們除了創業天使以外我們還有其他的所有投資做的重整不是創業天使而已你看這個表是所有你們投資方案所以我們接下來我們也會責成各部會匡列的這些基金也要重視南部南部的這些新創你這樣講他們好好好重視我數字給你看嘛有沒有成果數字會說話"},{"start":207.97,"end":229.284,"text":"所以我希望啊你們最好是國發基金掉落一半能力到高雄城的辦公室我們還有男伴嘛如果解凍之後我覺得這個辦公室也沒問題人力也沒問題啊今天拿出決心來你看新莊那麼多全部都在在北部資源相對比較多零籌資的管道比較多資源比較豐富你還全部放在"},{"start":231.897,"end":258.414,"text":"換寡也換不均啦 不均也換不公平我們一定會讓人部的服務中心發揮他應有的功能你現在目前規劃是派一位創投工會的人去喔我們應該不是我了解是這樣 我比你更清楚啦 郭副主委新創啊 需要福祉新創需要法律來支援產創條例在我當招委的時候通過 對不對我雖不滿意 但是還有精進空間"},{"start":260.404,"end":288.313,"text":"包括有更多 包括這個部分是應該是經濟部的業務的船上鐵路我希望說能夠有更多的這個優惠包括租稅穿透率 適用的門檻這需要跟財政部結合這個處理另外企業購併新創能不能納入投資底檢這個也應該給他一些輔導所以你那個新創的這個投資人越來越少因為你沒有給他這個土壤你沒有給他環境 他就不會投入新創嘛"},{"start":289.313,"end":307.058,"text":"這次產創條例裡面也有這次產創條例裡面好像也有對新創有一些這次不是我修法 是我通過的嘛二讀發言只有我在嘛這個法律也是我主審的所以我希望我下回期我再重新針對產創條例不足的部分我再重新提案"},{"start":308.259,"end":319.853,"text":"包括我剛剛說的租稅穿透率適用門檻新創年限的定義要再調整所得額的抵檢優惠對象跟上限也要做調整這一點 國務長您支持嗎支持 好"},{"start":324.366,"end":353.259,"text":"部長支持 因為這個法案是在經濟部主導我希望到時候跨部會協調包括財政部 包括國會都要充分支持我們讓下一步的 下一會期的修法讓廠商條例能夠更完整提供新創產業更完整 更優質的一個投資環境是的 我們全力支持這第一趴第二趴這個海水淡化廠很重要大部分是離島"},{"start":354.977,"end":376.345,"text":"那現在這個新竹跟高雄新竹跟台南因為這個台南園區高科技的需求所以需要用這個海淡廠海淡廠我曾經在蔡英文總統時代把台中臨時海淡廠把他設備遷到新達電廠隔壁做一個臨時海淡廠的一個處所他提供的這個水"},{"start":384.897,"end":411.393,"text":"這個海水氮化水我喝過可以喝它可以提供民生用水 必要的時候稍微減減啦蔡總統也有喝所以它不僅能提升提供民生用水也可以提供什麼這個產業用水原先規劃十萬噸那時候賴建信當署長的時候我一直在討論一直在滾動檢討我一直關心這個問題 也是我提案"},{"start":412.555,"end":429.003,"text":"本來沒這幾個 本來是台南三省長寧我邀請要認識一下所以把台中那個搬來北高雄你現在要設置永久性的海淡廠你要跟地方有充分的溝通得到地方的同意你不能因為海淡廠設置之後把一個漁村的產業把石斑魚的故鄉給毀了"},{"start":433.703,"end":455.061,"text":"你現在整個在延安 延安有LNG 中游有LNG廠也有旁邊的這個新達電廠 你要加上一個永安這個再生水廠一個一萬多人的一個區域 也有三個廠在那邊而且大部分是養殖餘溫啦 酒瓣是在故鄉的你這樣佔15公頃 人要怎麼做溫啊"},{"start":460.037,"end":481.429,"text":"所以今天你的地點的選擇很重要我是支持要蓋那個海水淡化廠但是你要去為了選擇你要讓我知道啊所以我竟然是最後一位才知道理事長跟我說我說我怎麼不知道這個計畫我不是原先是在協定興達電廠裡面嗎他們已經規劃好10萬噸了"},{"start":486.26,"end":514.444,"text":"它怎麼變成到永安來的原來是那個計畫改成地點 改到永安不如 我不用這個案子是我提議才會有這個海水台灣廠設在北高雄我希望你們來檢討是不是能夠多一點尊重這樣我是最後一位才知道我怎麼對我的鄉親交代我們會改善所以這個區位已經得到地方上極大的反彈"},{"start":515.458,"end":543.632,"text":"那區會重新選擇你要得到地方的共識我才能讓你繼續推下去如果因為鱷魚海灘場你毀滅一個漁村我死就不會接受了所以這很嚴肅的問題這是他們生存權的問題我最後是在知道我不在意啦但是我希望不要在這種情況發生我覺得行政立法部門充分的溝通"},{"start":545.086,"end":571.013,"text":"你在我的選區蓋那麼大的工程換地點我竟然不知道這個有點詭異現在還不是農曆七月另外東南亞台商在印度跟菲律賓這個菲律賓我想國務長您也很熟我希望可以再加強在菲律賓的佈局你看印度它的國內市場"},{"start":572.619,"end":600.156,"text":"很大所以我們是不是包括你看以前天鵬茂院長他做黨會裡面說南向國家裡面東南亞國旗裡面印度跟菲律賓不然從關稅未來可能演變或者他市場我覺得他他認為這是一個非常有潛力所以我們要加強力道針對菲律賓跟印度輔導協助我們在原來的東南亞台商在這邊能夠有更多生產聚落"},{"start":602.301,"end":626.547,"text":"是因為我來經濟部以後就推動境外關內的想法政府當然會在找到一個合適的地點以後讓已經在新南向地區的廠商幫他們能夠開始做一些產業的集結產業集結以後政府給予一些關照我想這樣子會提升他們的競爭力"},{"start":629.288,"end":655.863,"text":"這個部長經濟部拿出具體的作為針對這兩個國家有更多的輔導作為是 我們會我也提出來最後30秒再請教高副主委就是就業金卡這個相關有一些的法規你必須要去重視是那有youtuber因為他因為非法工作要採取被移民署禁止入國禁止入國但是他在禁止入國管制期間他又收到就業金卡他拿這個就業金卡又來入境"},{"start":657.784,"end":664.957,"text":"這個部分是行政作業跟法規適用會引起爭議跟漢格這個部分你們有沒有什麼你們有沒有知道這個問題我請我們處長來回應來 處長"},{"start":669.823,"end":693.9,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢有關這個案子其實我們有跟移民署這邊做了解確實是移民署在審查的過程之中沒有去檢視到說所以是移民署的問題啊就是在核發簽證核發那個就是就業金卡最後一關的時候沒有查證到說他有一些簽錢被禁止入境的這樣的一個情況"},{"start":694.62,"end":719.105,"text":"所以這個行政書是你要規則移民署沒有 我們這個部分我們後續也會再加強加強整個 橫向的聯繫很重要不完全是移民署移民署絕對是照章去做審核一定是因為法規上面是不是有不足或者有遺漏之處我希望你們最快速度跟移民署再做一個協調避免類似的狀況再發生好 謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝趙偉"},{"start":725.657,"end":726.101,"text":"這個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時17分）謝謝主席，是不是請國發會高副主委以及經濟部郭部長？"],["主席：請高副主委跟郭部長。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：副主委辛苦了。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不會。"],["邱委員志偉：副主委是這樣子的，我一直在關心國發基金的效能跟它資源的分配，我想國發基金可以改成北臺灣發展基金了，那麼多的基金項目，投資的這些企業或者天使創業投資，經濟委員會4個高雄立委、臺南1位、嘉義的坐在上面，中南部的都是經濟委員會主要的成員。但是你看，國發基金投資縣市的比例，全部都在雙北、新竹，北部占了87%；中部寥寥可數3.36%；南部加起來也只不過5.45%，這樣是不是可以改名叫北臺灣發展基金？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員，其實我們也有發現到有點重北輕南……"],["邱委員志偉：這是過去16個月的統計啊！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，所以委員也知道，在創業天使的投資方案，我們原來是準備在1月21號有一個南部服務辦公室……"],["邱委員志偉：是啦，我知道啦，但是因為你的預算被凍結，所以沒辦法……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：沒錯，我們解凍以後……"],["邱委員志偉：解凍以後你們趕快去成立，但不是一個人的編制喔！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然，當然。"],["邱委員志偉：不是一個人編制，不是創投公會派一個人去那邊聊備一格喔！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不會，不會。"],["邱委員志偉：我是希望國發基金撥一半的人力成立辦公室，或者國發基金全部移到高雄去！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們國發基金只有二十幾個人，恐怕……"],["邱委員志偉：三十幾位，我掌握比你還多？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們真正大概只有……其他，我們正式的……"],["邱委員志偉：你要拿出決心啦，移撥一半的人力去。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想人不是很重要，功能要發揮才是更重要。"],["邱委員志偉：人為什麼不重要？執秘、副執秘、組長全部都在臺北，然後你委託創投公會去那邊設立，派一個人去找一個辦公室、坐一張椅子，這樣就是有服務嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不會，我們一定會讓功能確切發揮。"],["邱委員志偉：我是希望我不要用附帶決議，我要要求你們國發基金拿出具體的作法，不是光說不練。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你看這個數據多讓人……我要怎麼對南部、對高雄、對臺南、對嘉義的這些做新創的年輕人交代？高雄市才2件而已，你過去16個月核准了51家，全部都在北部，高雄只有2家，加起來是1,100萬。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，其實我們除了創業天使以外，我們還有其他各部會的基金……"],["邱委員志偉：我瞭解，但我指的是所有投資的綜整，不是只有創業天使而已，你看這個表，這是你們所有的投資方案。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：所以我們接下來也會責成各部會匡列的這些基金也要重視南部的這些新創。"],["邱委員志偉：你這樣講，好、好、好說要重視，但是重視哪裡？我就把數字給你看了嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，所以我們會……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有成果？數字會說話，所以我希望你們國發基金最好調撥一半的人力到高雄成立辦公室，不是還有南辦嗎？預算解凍之後，我覺得這個辦公處所也沒問題、人力也沒問題，你要拿出決心來！你看，新創那麼多，全部都集中在北部資源相對比較多的地方，那裡籌資的管道比較多、資源比較豐富，你還全部放在那裡！患寡也患不均啊！患不均也患不公平！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員，我們一定會讓南部的服務中心發揮它應有的功能。"],["邱委員志偉：你目前的規劃是派一位創投公會的人去。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該不是吧！"],["邱委員志偉：我瞭解的是這樣，我比你更清楚啦！高副主委，新創需要扶植，也需要法律支援，產創條例是我當召委的時候通過的，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我雖不滿意，但也還有精進的空間。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["邱委員志偉：包括還有更多……這個部分應該是經濟部的業務，但我希望這個產創條例能提出更多的優惠，包括租稅穿透率適用的門檻，這個需要跟財政部結合處理。另外，企業併購新創能不能夠納入投資抵減？這個也應該給予輔導，新創的投資人愈來愈少，因為你沒有給他這個土壤、沒有給他環境，他就不會投資新創嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這次產創條例裡面也有……"],["邱委員志偉：所以你抵減不夠……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這次產創條例裡面好像對新創也有一些……"],["邱委員志偉：不是，這次的修法也是我通過的嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：二讀發言的時候也只有我在嘛！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["邱委員志偉：這個法律也是我主審的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以希望下個會期針對產創條例不足的部分，我會再重新提案。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：包括我剛剛說的租稅穿透率適用門檻、新創年限的定義要再調整、所得額的抵減優惠、對象跟上限也要再調整，這一點郭部長您支持嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：支持。"],["邱委員志偉：好，部長支持。因為這個法案是經濟部主導的，我希望到時候跨部會協調時包括經濟部、包括國發會都要充分支持，讓下一步、下一個會期的修法可以讓產創條例更完整，提供新創產業更完整、更優質的投資環境。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們全力支持。"],["邱委員志偉：這是第一part；第二part，海水淡化廠很重要，大部分是離島，現在新竹跟臺南因為產業園區有高科技的需求，所以需要用海淡廠。針對海淡廠，我曾經在蔡英文總統時代把臺中的臨時海淡廠和一些設備遷到茄萣興達電廠隔壁，作為臨時海淡廠的處所。它提供海水淡化後的水我喝過，可以喝，在必要的時候可以提供民生用水，只是稍微鹹鹹的，蔡總統也有喝，所以它不僅能夠提供民生用水，也可以提供產業用水。原先規劃10萬噸，賴建信當署長的時候，我一再討論、一直在滾動式檢討，我一直關心這個問題，也是我提案的，不然就沒這個規劃了。本來只有臺南和新竹而已，我要求也要設一個，所以才把臺中的那個搬來北高雄。","你現在要設置永久性的海淡廠，要跟地方有充分地溝通，得到地方的同意，你不要因為海淡廠設了之後，把一個漁村的產業、把石斑魚的故鄉給毀了。你現在規劃設在永安，永安有LNG，中油有LNG廠，旁邊也有興達電廠，再加上永安的再生水廠，一個一萬多人的區域你有3個廠在那邊，而且大部分是養殖魚塭，是石斑魚的故鄉，這樣占地15公頃，你要人家魚塭怎麼做？所以今天你地點的選擇很重要，我是支持要蓋海水淡化廠的，但是對於區位的選擇也要讓我知道啊！結果我竟然是最後一位才知道的，里長跟我說的時候我說「我怎麼不知道這個計畫？」，原先不是在茄萣興達港的興達電廠裡面嗎？那邊已經規劃好10萬噸了，怎麼變成搬到永安來了？原來是那個計畫的地點改到永安了。部長，這事我不知道耶！這個案子是我提議才有這個海水淡化廠設在北高雄，我希望你們要檢討，是不是能夠多一點尊重？我竟然是最後一位才知道的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會……"],["邱委員志偉：這樣我怎麼對我的鄉親交代？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會改善。"],["邱委員志偉：這個區位已經得到地方上極大的反彈了，你們的區位要重新選擇。你要得到地方的共識，我才能讓你繼續推下去。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果因為蓋一個海淡廠就毀滅一個漁村，我死都不會接受！所以這個是很嚴肅的問題，這是他們生存權的問題，雖然我是最後才知道的，但我不在意，只是我希望不要再有這種情況發生，我覺得行政、立法部門要充分地溝通，你在我的選區蓋那麼大的工程，換了地點我竟然不知道，這個有一點詭異耶！現在也還不是農曆7月。","另外，東南亞臺商在印度跟菲律賓，郭部長對菲律賓也很熟，我希望可以再加強在菲律賓的布局。印度國內的市場很大，包括以前田弘茂院長在座談會裡面說，在南向國家裡面、東南亞國協裡面，印度跟菲律賓不論從關稅未來可能的演變，或者是它的市場，他認為這是非常有潛力的，所以我們要加強力道針對菲律賓跟印度輔導、協助東南亞的臺商在這邊能有更多的生產聚落，對此部長的看法呢？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我來經濟部以後就有推動境外關內的想法，政府當然會在找到合適的地點以後，讓已經在新南向地區的廠商幫他們開始去做一些產業的集結，產業集結以後，政府給予一些關照，我想這樣就會提升他們的競爭力。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，請經濟部拿出具體的作為，針對這兩個國家提出更多的輔導作為。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會提出來。"],["邱委員志偉：最後30秒再請教高副主委，就業金卡的相關法規你必須去重視。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：有YouTuber因為非法工作遭裁處，被移民署禁止入國，但是他在禁止入國的管制期間又收到就業金卡，他就拿這個就業金卡入境，這個部分的行政作業跟法規適用會引起爭議跟扞格，對此你們知不知道這個問題，要怎麼去彌補？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我請我們處長來回應好不好？"],["邱委員志偉：來，處長。"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝委員的垂詢，有關這個案子，其實我們有跟移民署去瞭解，確實是移民署在審查的過程之中沒有檢視到他……"],["邱委員志偉：所以是移民署的問題？"],["謝處長佳宜：就是在核發就業金卡最後一關的時候，沒有查證到他有一些先前被禁止入境的情況。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這個行政疏失是你要歸責於移民署嗎？"],["謝處長佳宜：沒有，這個部分我們會……"],["邱委員志偉：還是你們法規上面有……"],["謝處長佳宜：我們後續也會再加強這個……"],["邱委員志偉：橫向的聯繫很重要，不完全是移民署，移民署絕對是照章去審核的嘛！"],["謝處長佳宜：是。"],["邱委員志偉：是不是法規上面有所不足或是有遺漏之處？我希望你們要以最快的速度再跟移民署協調，避免類似的狀況再發生。"],["謝處長佳宜：好，瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝各位。"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝召委，我還滿準時的。"],["主席：這個我不敢苟同，謝謝邱志偉委員。","下一位請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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申辦一期的回饋金目前到底怎麼了先不要管這個了要談到這個可能又會氣很多但是我先了解"},{"start":87.006,"end":108.098,"text":"能源署的部分你們常在說一起的回饋金基本上是依照一起還平這個要我們的環境部好環境部的問題我不問你我現在只有問我們能源署的部分能源署在尚未完成前兩項的要求點不得核發電業執照第一項"},{"start":111.001,"end":127.889,"text":"第一項是什麼我們先看一下第一項就是要求回饋金與電協金應秉持促進電力發展營運提升發電輸電及偏電設施周邊地區發展及居民福祉為目的有關"},{"start":128.849,"end":144.998,"text":"申辦一期回饋金為依書面規定撥付事宜請能源署依電協經管理辦法規定要求申辦電廠撥補108年至112年電協經的部分113年以後的電協經也要依電協經管理辦法規定辦理這是一期的部分那請問這要求有到位了嗎"},{"start":156.616,"end":183.969,"text":"邦委員我請能源署來回答報告那個森霸他並沒有規定來依規定來繳交這個電協金那所以我們已經有通知他要一線來繳交那麼他的金額是在委員我們就算過大概3億7千萬那這是一第二因為他沒有照規定那我們另外也額外有罰款100萬"},{"start":185.61,"end":210.4,"text":"那當然森巴目前他是不符這一個我們的處分那正在跟我們溯院當中那麼跟委員報告就是說這個我們未來會依這個溯院的決定來要求他如果他還是不繳的話我們依我們DNA法的規定會持續來加重處罰也就是說我們會一百萬、兩百萬、三百萬這樣子一直去處罰 署長這個是一起喔"},{"start":213.905,"end":236.704,"text":"二期你們現在已經過了對不對他都沒有達到我們的要求你就過了已經違反了我們的主決議號二期的部分是明年回饋金是明年對不對他以前年度他的整個獲益所得來計算他的一個回饋金所以二期回饋金都還沒有講到喔"},{"start":242.308,"end":259.748,"text":"還沒有繳 對不對 要明年喔所以現在只能講一期 申辦一期的回饋金申辦一期回饋金很清楚 我們已經有我們的電業法之後 我們都有要求到底要怎麼繳交 它從來沒繳交過"},{"start":263.432,"end":284.127,"text":"從來沒繳交過所以3.7億我要再次強調這是一期我覺得不要把他搞亂一期3.7億二期你們現在他一期都還沒繳進來你們又核准他了這就是我要講的你們已經違反主決議了在第二個部分第二個要求382期現在"},{"start":288.615,"end":316.914,"text":"已經通過了跟我們當時候主角不一樣 主角一直說他在試運轉喔好他在試運轉的部分已經造成民眾對安全的擔憂 因為他是二期的管線沿用一期的管線我們也只有要求你要要求申辦應該提出試運轉檢測資料 這個要提出沒有問題我們也要求你要把未來"},{"start":318.255,"end":335.577,"text":"過去沒有問題不代表未來沒有問題未來他如何公正公平公開能夠讓大家知道他的公共安全管線的資料就這個部分他也做不到他也做不到"},{"start":336.525,"end":355.351,"text":"是 這樣分成兩個部分就是他的管線安全那麼他有提供資料那也請第三方公證機構來看過這是過去嗎 我現在沒有跟你講過去那他現在委員關心的是說那他未來40年是不是能夠也保證安全"},{"start":355.931,"end":382.764,"text":"那这一部分就是说我们是靠未来的监测机制好这个监测机制在哪里吗我只要求说你应该让地方能够参与让地方知道我的管线有没有问题他经过永康新市新化到山上这路径多长啊这是应该的这是人民的权益而且申办"},{"start":383.804,"end":409.827,"text":"他的所有管線他的圖資都不完整都不完整這20年前的資料圖資都不完整你要叫人民怎麼信心能夠相信他的管線沒有問題當然你們現在有學者專家願意被他背書可是請問我人民總有權去要求未來吧"},{"start":410.416,"end":436.927,"text":"是這是應該的那所以我們有叫這個森巴他要把他的這個現在的資料放在網站上他有放在網站上那未來他會持續做監測你監測系統都不在了請問這些網站都是吃一些資料而已你應該把你的網站安全的監測在哪裡在永康設一點新市設一點"},{"start":437.967,"end":446.851,"text":"然後山上設一點 新化設一點那麼所有的李明 民眾 就得知道這些資料就是從這邊跑出來的是應該是這樣做啊 並沒有欸你們都完全 申辦怎麼講 你們就怎麼做"},{"start":454.694,"end":463.939,"text":"沒有啦 我們有第三方 剛才報告第三方的認證機構不是第三方認證機構 第三方認證是之前不代表未來 未來要公開透明民眾只是要求這個樣子有很困難嗎沒有 這是應該做的是啊 可是你們並沒有要求他啊你們還是讓他過啦"},{"start":477.826,"end":498.762,"text":"因為他未來的監測好 你多久 多久要把這些監測在哪裡永康設一點 新市設一點 新化設一點 山上設一點你把它很清楚透明我們的監測系統在哪裡然後公開在網站當中就是這些監測的單位監測的地方所發出來的資料"},{"start":504.066,"end":524.923,"text":"這樣不是就很好了嗎那我們的里長都可以來看地方議員也可以來看那是不是安全上彼此就有一些約束力是不是如此委員 這個要求是合理的那所以我們有要求他未來要把所有的監測資料包括巡檢的資料要PO在網站上"},{"start":526.867,"end":549.235,"text":"署長我要點 永康設在哪裡 新市設在哪裡 新化設在哪裡你沒有這些監測點 請問你這些資料怎麼跑出來的誰知道是 他有這些監測點 那我可以提供給你監測點在哪裡 多久要給我們 讓所有的民眾來知道我的監測點在哪裡"},{"start":550.655,"end":567.873,"text":"可以 我們大概一禮拜我們提供這個資料就是他的監測點包括他未來的監測機制是什麼那他要定期把他監測的結果來告訴民眾一個禮拜喔我們會要求他來做 沒問題"},{"start":568.934,"end":586.99,"text":"地下管線 署長地下管線不能開玩笑啦是是他只要一個氣爆 整個都沒了整個都沒了 署長一個禮拜喔我等你給我這些監測的地方然後他的監測系統怎麼公開透明"},{"start":588.091,"end":594.655,"text":"這個部分再拜託然後3.7億一期的回饋金到底什麼時候要入到我們市庫市庫喔 因為這回饋金是給地方的對不對 要給我們市庫 你要追啊沒錯 申辦有律師團啊哪知道我們又過輸啦 我跟你說我們八包起來放啦"},{"start":615.693,"end":628.265,"text":"我們有信心才會做這樣的處罰所以要多久趕快入我們的事庫這個也要給我們一個時間表這個部分很重要我們再拜託我們的國發會我們國發會"},{"start":631.943,"end":650.351,"text":"我們要拜託我們當時候經濟委員會下去考察所有唐鐵五分車狼帶創生計畫對不對副主委我要拜託你要怎麼樣請台唐市政府哪一個單位趕快提出這個創生計畫這個狼帶創生太美了"},{"start":655.612,"end":680.067,"text":"如果它真的可以完成的話我相信這個部分才是我們西北能夠對這個企業變成是我們的期待跟願望的一個機會人家說對我們的後面變成前途好 所以這個部分多久我們這個副主委是這個唐鐵五分車人大創新計畫多久"},{"start":683.817,"end":707.188,"text":"我們要跟地方協調哪個單位要出來台堂還有市府到底要是從文化部文化局或是我們經發局來提出這個部分多久要把它溝通出來我想我針對委員提這個案子我們會跟市政府還有中央的話大概是經濟部的相關的機關我們來討論一下再給委員回覆一個月好不好"},{"start":708.368,"end":735.646,"text":"我們下個禮拜會再從市政府跟我們台堂去針對這幾個問題我們有提出幾個問題就是包括它的斷點要怎麼找替代道路還有我們所有謝嚴台的整個文化部的一個登錄還有相關的這個設置平交道要怎麼連接的部分還有我們所有地方的這些階段的部分"},{"start":737.048,"end":758.219,"text":"其實不是問題啦我們都有去看都不是問題只是這小問題我們要怎麼約市府跟台黨把它做一個串聯那但是這個創生計畫狼帶創生計畫一個月提出來看哪一個單位要主責趕快提出來我們是不是先開會先調完我們再給委員答覆好謝謝"},{"start":767.605,"end":767.93,"text":"好謝謝陳秦輝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時4分）請經濟部跟國發會。"],["主席：請經濟部跟國發會。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。我想讓你看一個資料，這是我們113年度預算的主決議提案，就是我們當時在審預算的主決議，非常清楚，是由我們立法院經濟委員會通過的，當時候有做了這個決議──在尚未完成前兩項的要求前，能源署不得核發森霸電業執照。就這個部分我先來跟部長討論一下，部長，很清楚喔！尚未完成前兩項的要求前，能源署不得核發森霸二期的電業執照。好，我先不說森霸一期的回饋金目前到底怎麼了，先不要管這個，要談到這個可能又會「氣」很多。但是我先了解能源署的部分，你們常常在說一期的回饋金基本上是依照一期環評，這個要我們的環境部……好，環境部的問題我不問你，我現在只問能源署的部分，能源署在尚未完成前兩項的要求前，不得核發電業執照。","我們先看一下第一項是什麼，第一項就是要求「回饋金與電協金應秉持促進電力發展營運、提升發電、輸電及變電設施周邊地區發展及居民福祉等目的。有關森霸一期回饋金未依書面規定撥付事宜，請能源署依電協金管理辦法規定，要求森霸電廠補提108年至112年電協金，113年以後的電協金也要依電協金管理辦法規定辦理」，這是一期的部分，請問這要求有到位了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我請能源署回答。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，署長。"],["李代理署長君禮：報告：森霸並沒有依規定來繳交電協金，所以我們已經有通知它要依限繳交，它的金額我們算過，大概是3億7,000萬，這是第一點。第二，因為它沒有照規定，我們另外有罰款100萬。當然，森霸目前是不服我們的處分，正在跟我們訴願當中，我們未來會依這個訴願決定來要求它，如果它還是不繳的話，依電業法的規定，我們會持續加重處罰，也就是說，我們會100萬、200萬、300萬這樣子一直去處罰它。"],["陳委員亭妃：署長，這個是一期喔！二期你們現在已經通過了，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：它都沒有達到我們的要求，你就通過了，已經違反了我們的主決議。二期的部分是明年，回饋金是明年，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：對，它計算今年……"],["陳委員亭妃：就它以前年度的整個獲益所得來計算回饋金。"],["李代理署長君禮：是，它要在年底結算出來。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，所以二期回饋金都還沒有繳，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：對，還沒有繳。"],["陳委員亭妃：要明年喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以現在只能講森霸一期的回饋金，很清楚，已經有電業法之後，我們都有要求到底要怎麼繳交，但它從來沒繳交過！"],["李代理署長君禮：對，所以我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：從來沒繳交過！所以3.7億我要再次強調，這是一期，不要把它搞亂了。"],["李代理署長君禮：對，了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：一期3.7億，現在它一期都還沒繳，二期你們又核准它了，這就是我要講的，你們已經違反主決議了。","再來，第二個部分、第二個要求。現在森霸二期已經通過了，但跟我們當初的主決不一樣喔！主決議是說它在試運轉，這部分已經造成民眾對安全的擔憂，因為二期的管線是沿用一期的，我們也只有要求你，要去要求森霸應該提出試運轉檢測資料，好，這個要提出沒有問題。我們也要求你要把未來……過去沒有問題，不代表未來沒有問題，未來它如何公正、公平、公開，能夠讓大家知道公共安全管線的資料，就這個部分它也做不到。"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員，這要分成兩個部分，管線安全它有提供資料，也請第三方公正機構來看過，經過委員審查是沒有問題的。"],["陳委員亭妃：這是過去嘛，我現在沒有跟你講過去嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：現在委員關心的是它未來40年是不是能夠也保證安全？"],["陳委員亭妃：當然。"],["李代理署長君禮：這一部分我們是靠未來的監測機制來監測它……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這個監測機制在哪裡嘛！我只要求你應該讓地方能夠參與，讓地方知道我的管線有沒有問題，它經過永康、新市、新化到山上，這路徑多長啊？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，這是應該的，讓民眾能夠……"],["陳委員亭妃：這是人民的權益，而且森霸的所有管線、它的圖資都不完整，20年前的資料圖資都不完整，你要叫人民怎麼有信心能夠相信它的管線沒有問題？當然，你們現在有學者專家願意為它背書，可是請問人民總有權去要求未來吧？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，這是應該的，所以我們有叫森霸要把現在的資料放在網站上，它有放在網站上，未來它會持續做監測……"],["陳委員亭妃：監測系統都不在了，這些網站都只是一些資料而已，你應該把你的網站安全的監測在哪裡？在永康設一點、新市設一點，然後山上設一點、新化設一點，那麼所有的里民、民眾就可以知道這些資料就是從這邊跑出來的，應該是這樣做啊，並沒有耶！完全都是森霸怎麼講，你們就怎麼做。"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有啦，剛才報告我們有第三方的認證機構，也經過委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是第三方認證機構，第三方認證是之前，不代表未來……"],["李代理署長君禮：了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：未來要公開透明，民眾只是要求這樣子有很困難嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有，這是應該做的，未來我們有……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！可是你們並沒有要求它啊！你們還是讓它過了，你們沒有要求它。"],["李代理署長君禮：它未來的監測……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，你多久要把這些監測點在哪裡給我？永康設一點、新市設一點、新化設一點、山上設一點，你把它很清楚、透明列出我們的監測系統在哪裡，然後公開在網站當中，就是這些監測的單位、監測的地方所發出來的資料，這樣不是就很好了嗎？我們的里長都可以來看，地方議員也可以來看，是不是安全上彼此就有一些約束力，是不是如此？"],["李代理署長君禮：了解，委員這個要求是合理的……"],["陳委員亭妃：要多久？"],["李代理署長君禮：所以我們有要求它未來要把所有的監測資料，包括巡檢的資料要post在網站上。"],["陳委員亭妃：不是，署長，我要的是點，永康設在哪裡？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們可以請它提供，沒有問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：新市設在哪裡？新化設在哪裡？你沒有這些監測點，請問你現在資料怎麼跑出來的誰知道？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，它有這些監測點，我可以提供給委員。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，監測點在哪裡？多久要給我們，讓所有的民眾來知道我的監測點在哪裡？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：多久？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們跟它……大概一禮拜我們提供這個資料。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，一個禮拜喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：就它的監測點，包括未來的監測機制是什麼，以及要定期把它監測的結果告訴民眾，這是合理的，我們會要求它來做……"],["陳委員亭妃：一個禮拜喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：沒問題。我們會先提供……"],["陳委員亭妃：署長，地下管線不能開玩笑啦！只要一個氣爆整個都沒了，整個都沒了，署長一個禮拜喔！我等你給我這些監測的地方，然後它的監測系統怎麼公開透明，這個部分再拜託。"],["李代理署長君禮：是，怎麼監測我們會給委員一個完整的說明。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後一期3.7億的回饋金，到底什麼時候要入到我們市庫？我說市庫喔！因為這回饋金是給地方的，對不對？要給我們市庫，你要追啊！沒錯，森霸有律師團，如果這個我們再告輸，我跟你說，我們包一包起來放了啦！我們包一包起來放了啦！"],["李代理署長君禮：不會啦，我們有信心才會做這樣的處分。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊，所以趕快入我們的市庫，要多久也要給我們一個時間表，這個部分很重要。","我們再拜託國發會，當時經濟委員會下去考察糖鐵五分車廊帶創生計畫，對不對？副主委，我拜託你要請台糖還市政府哪一個單位，趕快提出創生計畫，這個廊帶創生太美了！如果它真的可以完成的話，我相信這個部分才是讓我們溪北能夠變成是我們期待跟希望的一個機會，人家說從落後的變成前面的。好，副主委，所以這個糖鐵五分車廊帶創生計畫要多久？我們要跟地方協調，哪一個單位要出來，台糖還有市府？到底是從文化部、文化局或是我們經發局提出，這個部分多久要把它溝通出來？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：針對委員提的這個案子，我們會跟市政府，還有中央的話大概是經濟部相關的機關，我們來討論一下，再給委員回復，好不好？"],["陳委員亭妃：一個月好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們下個禮拜會再從市政府跟台糖針對這幾個問題，我們有提出幾個問題：就是包括它的斷點要怎麼找替代道路，以及卸鹽台在文化部的登錄，以及相關設置平交道要怎麼連接的部分，還有我們所有地方的這些截斷的部分。其實這些不是問題啦，我們都有去看，都不是問題，只是這些小問題我們要怎麼約市府跟台糖把它做一個串聯？這個廊帶創生計畫，一個月提出來，看哪一個單位要主責，趕快提出來！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我們是不是先開會協調完，再給委員答復。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，一個月，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","呂玉玲"],"page_start":139,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 39案；二、處理或\n審查 114 年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21 案；三、繼續審\n查：(一)行政院函請審議「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美惠等18人\n擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「個人資料保護\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 四) 本院委員李坤城等16 人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委\n員陳亭妃等16人擬具「個人資料保護法第十二條、第二十七條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(七)本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145201_00003"}}},{"id":"161812","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161812","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9d95a28bddb2b0998018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d20ab150cb962ecfa415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:04:06 - 11:13:24","影片長度":"00:09:18","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T11:04:06+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T11:13:24+08:00","duration":558,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.29659375,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.70159375,"end":40.986593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.25659375,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.32409375,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.59284375,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.63471875,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.75159375000001,"end":116.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.00846875,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.78034375000001,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.18846875000001,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.18346875,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.01846875,"end":137.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.16159375,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.37659375,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.59596875,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.61284375,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.88596875000002,"end":145.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.72971875000002,"end":191.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.37659375,"end":218.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.04721875,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.68409375000002,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.62909375,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.01221875000002,"end":244.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.83659375000002,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.58721875,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.17346875,"end":250.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.89471875,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.92846875,"end":250.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.99596875,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.01284375000003,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.03534375000004,"end":274.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.90846875,"end":278.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.38846875,"end":282.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.33721875000003,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.21034375,"end":287.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.22721875,"end":284.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.44596875,"end":292.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.34034375000005,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.02784375000005,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.95846875,"end":302.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.96534375000005,"end":313.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.36159375,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.17159375,"end":321.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.84596875,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.68534375,"end":332.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.96284375000005,"end":328.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.58721875000003,"end":329.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.67971875,"end":332.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.99159375000005,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":335.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.24846875000003,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.96971875,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.08784375000005,"end":338.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.12159375000005,"end":338.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.49284375,"end":338.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.76284375,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.77971875000003,"end":363.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.16784375000003,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.05846875000003,"end":371.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.56346875,"end":372.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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含標點符號落實原住民自治是賴清德總統的政見之一那請問何時可以提出草案草案已經原住民自治法草案已經有一個新的版本但是我們接下來就是要去爭取族人的意見去年一年都沒有爭取族人的意見嗎去年我們是先研擬草案"},{"start":118.8,"end":143.866,"text":"那草案延領了一年現在出來了現在要徵詢主任的意見是這樣嗎那我們預計大概要徵詢多久我們大概會排定因為我們大概如果說預算解凍之後我們才有經費去辦這個意見徵詢預算解凍啊不是等一下就會解凍了嗎那我們大概需要大概需要半年的時間半年的時間好那半年的時間你們徵詢完之後理論上是原住民的草案就是半年後應該就可以提出了是嗎"},{"start":145.999,"end":173.639,"text":"因為我想針對這個部分因為民長已經執政9年了但是到現在為止都還沒有提出過草案供立法院審查所以要請原民會要多多加油那另外我想請教你就是落實原住民族基本法第二條第一項所揭示的部落自治精神在114年4月7號有啟動剛剛你有提到部落公法人的事辦計畫那並責定了台東縣的督蘭部落"},{"start":174.139,"end":190.393,"text":"花蓮縣的薩古爾部落、屏東縣的義陵部落、屏東縣的大武部落跟南投縣的旺鄉部落這五個部落作為示範區那主委我查了一下這五個部落的人口數就是我現在你可以看到的表上的數字"},{"start":191.494,"end":217.931,"text":"那另外呢我還查了像包括台東縣的馬老部落有1887人台東縣的大鳥部落有1165人台東縣的金輪部落有1255人花蓮縣的泰巴索部落有2463人花蓮縣的馬太安部落有2469人等等這些都比你挑的五個這個部落示範區還要多人那請問為什麼你挑這五個部落"},{"start":220.063,"end":247.785,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這幾個部落就說是有幾個是山地原住民鄉的部落他本來部落的這個大概他的人口數也就是500到400人左右是這樣只有那個杜蘭部落他是平地原住民鄉還有這個沙古爾部落所以他的人數會比較多一點所以你本來就是責定只能500人所有的部落嗎"},{"start":248.345,"end":267.758,"text":"不是因為我們認為這幾個部落他的範圍固定還有他的人口數沒有那麼多然後他的部落這些不管是村長也好代表也好議員也好還有地方上的社區理事我們都觀察過他們的互動都很好"},{"start":268.018,"end":284.257,"text":"是跟你的互動比較好還是跟一般人的互動比較好跟族人的互動比較好其實其他人互動都不好不要誤會了齁這裡面沒有一個是我的部落也沒有一個是我的鄉那其他的人的互動部落都不好喔你的意思是這樣嗎跟部落的互動都不好不是說其他都不好那請問一下那蘭嶼呢蘭嶼的島族部落咧"},{"start":288.462,"end":305.756,"text":"我覺得他更適合你講的這樣就是他就是一個完整的部落更固定那當然因為蘭嶼有更多的這個考量那我們想就是說這個總是第一波我們先做讓我們先做做看那請問你有沒有徵詢其他部落的意見還有怎麼選定這幾個是由我們園民會自己"},{"start":310.039,"end":335.542,"text":"決定要選這五個嗎這幾個部落是我們會裡面討論討論的結果希望我們會裡面不管是副主委也好還有所以就是由上而下沒有徵詢其他部落嗎我也徵詢他們的意見然後我們有下去跟部落先做溝通哪個部落 你跟哪個部落做溝通比如說這個大五 義理你跟這五個部落溝通當然好我只是你跟其他的部落有沒有溝通也沒有"},{"start":336.323,"end":341.204,"text":"不是說他願意我們就一定要跟他走因為你這樣子可以比如說示範8個月給100萬的補助那其他的這5個示範部落在8個月的時間可以領到這100萬那未來如果有相關的競爭的機會"},{"start":353.308,"end":371.254,"text":"因為他們這五個是示範區所以他們可能就可以優先有這樣子的一個機會可以直接跟中央爭取更多的權益那其他的部落就輸在起跑點了可以說是連這個報名表都拿不到那這個部分的話事實上看起來就是制度性的圖利還有排擠性的分配"},{"start":372.571,"end":389.88,"text":"我跟委員報告像其他的部落不在這五個部落裡面有的時候他們爭取的機會都遠遠超過剛剛所講的機會那誰哪一個部落你可以舉例一下嗎就是說我們這個事辦計畫這五個部落他們所爭取的機會主委我想請教一下現在有沒有補救的辦法否則的話我剛剛講了嘛"},{"start":394.662,"end":409.065,"text":"其他的部落也想要爭取成為這個示範區可是呢是由你們由上而下決定這五個部落那其他的部落如果也想成為示範區有沒有什麼這個補救的辦法難道要一直讓這種不公平一直持續下去嗎"},{"start":410.046,"end":427.455,"text":"跟委員報告是不是讓我們這五個部落因為現在已經五月底了到年底只剩下大概半年多一點的時間那你四月才開始的也不過才開始一個月那你告訴我說到年底你才開始一個月如果錯了就要改不是用這種方式"},{"start":428.035,"end":447.842,"text":"或者是說要不然你要不要再多幾個部落來去做示範呢我覺得這也是一種方式啊我們很快明年我們就希望能夠有更多的部落因為不要讓大家覺得這種是制度性的圖利圖利這幾個部落都是由原民會來決定由誰來做我覺得不要讓外界有這樣的感想啦那另外針對這個台東太馬里大武達人等地設置33支陸域風力發電機還有海岸線成功鎮到長濱設置25組的陸域型風力發電"},{"start":457.825,"end":481.792,"text":"然後台東從南到北就有58支風力發電機所以地方非常強烈的勿滿已經組成了長濱反風電自救會那請問主委知道東部的風電開發案嗎開發商有沒有依照原住民族基本法第21條的規定向部落諮詢並取得同意或參與這裡要諮商同意的正式的送案"},{"start":483.161,"end":504.578,"text":"所以你說目前沒有經過你們的諮商跟徵詢是嗎還沒有正式送案喔就我所知道那這個風機的環評預備會議在台東開過一次會議請問園民會有派人參加嗎那有沒有通知族人到這個出席區一起發表意見呢環評沒有沒有"},{"start":506.468,"end":522.893,"text":"環評預備都沒有那也就是說在這過程中都不必去問部落不必去了解這個我們族人的意見都沒有這只是初步的規劃而已那所以等到他都規劃好告訴你要設了那你原民會才說喔那對不起我們都還沒有參與因為還沒成案"},{"start":526.007,"end":554.208,"text":"所以主委我想原住民我想原民會你們應該是要捍衛原住民的權益啊所以你們要勇敢的表達立場你應該在行政院會的時候向經濟部抗議啊不可以讓原民這個這個攸關原民的權益所以你們應該要積極的參與而不是用這種方式說沒有沒有到最後設立之後然後再來說我們不曉得已經設立了因為不是我的主管機關所以麻煩原民會要拿出你們的魄力來捍衛我們原住民的權益"},{"start":555.09,"end":555.11,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1139,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我們請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委好。主委，賴清德總統在去年1月競選總統的時候，有說過當選總統後，要落實原住民自治、推動族語的復育，還有重視原民健康權、栽培原民人才跟恢復部落的生活機能。請問主委，您擔任原民會的主委已經1年了，賴總統所說的落實原住民族的自治實施了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，原住民的自治不是一次就到位，所以我們希望先試辦公法人，讓我們的部落先學習怎麼樣自己來決定自己部落的事情。"],["許委員宇甄：所以去年您剛上任的時候，我也有質詢過您，但是目前不要說立法，連草案都還沒有完成，當然原住民目前的自治法源是根據地方制度法所制定的，直轄市的原住民區長原本是沒有辦法以選舉產生，那是在馬英九總統執政時期提出的行政院的版本，修法賦予直轄市的原住民族有自治權，但是跟原住民族自治法的立法，差異還是很大。根據你們剛剛的業務報告，針對原住民族自治法草案的推動進度，只寫了會保障原住民族自治權，研擬原住民族自治法草案，並徵詢各界意見，將循法制作業程序辦理。你用了44個字，含標點符號，落實原住民自治是賴清德總統的政見之一，請問何時可以提出草案？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：跟委員報告，其實我們原住民族自治法草案已經有一個新的版本，接下來就是要去徵詢族人的意見。"],["許委員宇甄：那去年一年都沒有徵詢族人的意見嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：去年我們是先研擬草案。"],["許委員宇甄：草案研擬了一年，現在出來了，現在要徵詢族人的意見，是這樣嗎？預計大概要徵詢多久？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：我們大概會排……因為預算解凍之後，我們才有經費去辦意見徵詢。"],["許委員宇甄：預算解凍？不是等一下就會解凍了嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：我們大概需要半年的時間。"],["許委員宇甄：半年的時間？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：對。"],["許委員宇甄：好，半年的時間，你們徵詢完之後，理論上，原住民草案半年後應該就可以提出了，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，因為民進黨已經執政9年了，但是到現在為止，都還沒有提出過草案供立法院審查，所以要請原民會多多加油。","另外，我想請教你，為了落實原住民族基本法第二條第一項所揭示的部落自治精神，在114年4月7號有啟動，剛剛你有提到部落公法人的試辦計畫，並擇定了臺東縣的都蘭部落、花蓮縣的撒固兒部落、屏東縣的義林部落、屏東縣的大武部落跟南投縣的望鄉部落這5個部落作為試辦區。主委，我查了一下這5個部落的人口數，就是你現在可以在表上看到的數字。另外我還查了像包括臺東縣的麻荖部落有1,887人，臺東縣的大鳥部落有1,165人，臺東縣的金崙部落有1,255人，花蓮縣的太巴塱部落有2,463人，花蓮縣的馬太鞍部落有2,469人等等，這些都比你挑的這5個部落試辦區還要多人，請問你為什麼挑這5個部落？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這幾個部落有幾個是山地原住民鄉的部落，本來部落大概的人口數也就是500到400人左右，是這樣，只有都蘭部落是平地原住民鄉，還有撒固兒部落，所以它的人數會比較多一點。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你本來就是擇定只能500人左右的部落嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是……"],["許委員宇甄：你怎麼選定出來的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們認為這幾個部落的範圍固定，人口數沒有那麼多，部落的這些不管是村長也好、代表也好、議員也好，還有地方上的社區理事，我們都觀察過，他們的互動都很好……"],["許委員宇甄：是跟你的互動比較好？還是跟一般人的互動比較好？還是跟族人的互動比較好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟部落互動比較……"],["許委員宇甄：就是其他人的互動都不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不要誤會了，這裡面沒有一個是我的部落，也沒有一個是我的鄉……"],["許委員宇甄：那其他人跟部落的互動都不好，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是說其他都不好，我們認為……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下蘭嶼呢？蘭嶼的達悟族部落呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：蘭嶼的達悟族部落……"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得它更適合你講的這樣，就是一個完整的部落。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，它的範圍更固定，但因為蘭嶼有更多的考量，我們想這個是第一波，讓我們先做做看。"],["許委員宇甄：請問你有沒有徵詢其他部落的意見？還有怎麼選定這幾個？是由原民會自己決定要選這5個嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這幾個部落是我們會裡面討論的結果，希望我們會裡面，不管是副主委也好，還有……"],["許委員宇甄：所以就是由上而下，沒有徵詢其他部落嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我也徵詢他們的意見，我們也有下去跟部落先做溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：哪個部落？你跟哪個部落做溝通？"],["曾主任委員智勇：比如說大武、義林，我們都有過去……"],["許委員宇甄：你跟這5個部落溝通當然好，我是說你跟其他的部落有沒有溝通？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也沒有，不是說它願意，我們就一定要跟它做，還要詢問他們的意見。"],["許委員宇甄：因為你這樣子，譬如說試辦8個月，給100萬的補助，這5個試辦部落不到8個月的時間，就可以領到這100萬，未來如果有相關的競爭機會，因為他們這5個是示範區，所以他們可能就優先有這樣子的機會可以直接跟中央爭取更多的權益，其他的部落就輸在起跑點了，可以說是連這個報名表都拿不到，這個部分事實上看起來就是制度性的圖利及排擠性的分配。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，像不在這5個部落裡面的其他部落，有時候他們爭取的經費都遠遠超過剛剛所講的經費。"],["許委員宇甄：哪一個部落？你可以舉例一下嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們試辦計畫的這5個部落，他們所爭取的經費……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想請教一下，現在有沒有補救的辦法？我剛剛講了，其他的部落也想要爭取成為示範區，可是是由你們由上而下決定這5個部落，其他的部落如果也想成為示範區，有沒有什麼補救的辦法？難道要讓這種不公平一直持續下去嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，是不是讓我們這5個部落……因為現在已經5月底了，到年底只剩下大概半年多一點的時間……"],["許委員宇甄：4月才開始的，也不過才開始一個月。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對啊！但是我們希望……"],["許委員宇甄：你告訴我到年底還有……才開始一個月，如果錯了就要改，不是用這種方式……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望……"],["許委員宇甄：或者是要不要再多幾個部落去做示範？我覺得這也是一種方式。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們很快，明年我們希望能夠有更多的部落……"],["許委員宇甄：不要讓大家覺得這種是制度性的圖利，圖利這幾個部落，都是由原民會決定誰來做，我覺得不要讓外界有這樣的感想。","另外，針對臺東太麻里、大武、達仁等地設置33支陸域風力發電機，以及海岸線成功鎮到長濱設置25組的陸域型風力發電，臺東從南到北就有58支風力發電機，地方非常強烈的不滿，已經組成了長濱反風電自救會。請問主委，知道東部的風電開發案嗎？開發商有沒有依照原住民族基本法第二十一條的規定，向部落諮詢並取得同意或參與？"],["曾主任委員智勇：諮商同意要正式送案。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你的意思是目前沒有經過你們的諮商跟徵詢，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就我所知，還沒有正式送案。"],["許委員宇甄：風機的環評預備會議在臺東開過一次會議，請問原民會有派人參加嗎？有沒有通知族人出席一起發表意見呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：環評沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：環評預備會議都沒有，也就是說在這過程中都不必問部落、不必了解族人的意見？"],["曾主任委員智勇：都沒有，這只是初步的規劃而已。"],["許委員宇甄：等到它都規劃好告訴你要設了，原民會才說：對不起，我們沒有參與，因為還沒成案。主委，我想……"],["曾主任委員智勇：這還是要走程序啦！"],["許委員宇甄：原民會應該是要捍衛原住民的權益，你們要勇敢地表達立場，你應該在行政院院會的時候向經濟部抗議，這攸關原民的權益，你們應該要積極參與，而不是用這種方式說沒有、沒有，到最後設立之後再來說你們不曉得已經設立，因為你們不是主管機關，麻煩原民會要拿出你們的魄力來捍衛原住民的權益。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時13分）","繼續開會（11時20分）"],["主席：請各位官員、委員回座。報告委員會，我們繼續開會。","跟委員會作一個報告：中午不會休息。現在繼續詢答，下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f935d6f5154aa84a33018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d20b20d4d170e3d7e975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:48:03 - 11:03:56","影片長度":"00:15:53","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra 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主委"},{"start":74.498,"end":88.504,"text":"我們用數據來說話看一下99年的時候法規命令當時放一天假是法規命令我們首次納入放假一天假當時也是很多人說我們會沒有工作但是我們的失業率是從5.90%降到隔年的5.32%這根本就沒有影響就業的問題"},{"start":97.768,"end":119.92,"text":"所以放假會沒有工作其實是執政黨你們的話術所以實際一放三天假是族人需要的今天再講清楚一點當時我們放一天假是用法規命令可是現在我們是法律規範可以放三天假老闆如果不遵守法規他要依據勞動基準法第79條要罰錢的"},{"start":125.863,"end":138.229,"text":"所以這不就是更加保障我們族人的權益了嗎那身為執政黨的這個圓明會也好或者是立委也好應該是要多多的像這些所謂的慣老闆來教育他們"},{"start":141.431,"end":161.01,"text":"原住民為什麼要放三天的假你們要做的是這件事情而不是在立法院測案然後站在冠老闆的這個角色上面然後跟他們說話然後不選擇跟主任站在一起我真的非常的遺憾耶主委你可以不用回答了但是呢我必須要講執政黨的立委"},{"start":163.712,"end":173.242,"text":"沒有在立法院投贊成的票我們在野黨的立法委員全力的支持所以現在以後你們要做的事就要教育這些慣老闆為什麼我們原住民要放三天假的重要性是哪裡第二點就是你們要趕快跟部落的族人說明因為族人會害怕"},{"start":184.574,"end":209.977,"text":"因為你們一直在講說放三天假我們老闆就不會用你們了 他們會害怕所以是有法律依據的對不對是必須放的對不對如果不放假會被罰錢對不對好 既然是有這樣子被保障那你們應該就要幫族人做一些法律程序上的一些鋪陳 對吧希望我能看到你們要怎麼做另外"},{"start":211.161,"end":234.708,"text":"我們回到基金運用上面為了都會區的族人的居住權益我呢有要求綜合發展基金必須要納入社宅投資的項目請問主委你們的看法是什麼這個我跟委員報告有關這個我們這個興建這個社會住宅他基本上還是要地方政府來"},{"start":238.581,"end":251.682,"text":"統籌這個業務統籌這個業務我同意那至於就是說這個是內政部來協助我也同意對但是您知道嗎主委你的立場是什麼就簡單講一下今天時間有限是你的立場支不支持"},{"start":254.164,"end":268.014,"text":"我們來看一下行政院其實在解凍報告裡面也說投資社會住宅是符合規定的第二個基金還有45億未來還會適時的由公務預算來撥補協儲行政院的說法他說我們的法規是容許並且基金還有錢"},{"start":277.761,"end":304.443,"text":"這都是從正面的方向去吧可是主委你知道嗎 園民會呢到114年1月你們基金可動用的只剩下2.1億了對吧主委好 請問一下到底我們行政院說我們還有45億園民會說只剩2.1億到底我們的基金還有多少錢啊不急啊淨值44.6億可動用的資金可以動用的資金大概是11.6億"},{"start":306.175,"end":324.872,"text":"可以動用的啦可以現在等於是現金嘛 對不對可以動的是11億14億點6億好 請問一下如果基金沒有錢的話我們的微小貸款啊 修上房屋啦這些貸款就會全面停擺了 對不對那請問這11億現在還可以做嗎"},{"start":330.113,"end":346.195,"text":"這動得了嗎有在做 跟委員報告截至三月底為止的話那今年度基金的預算在貸款款是6.8億那已經貸放了312件那那個貸放的資金那這樣子還剩多少"},{"start":347.969,"end":370.785,"text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告 截至4月底為止 等於說可動用資金還是有11.6億好 所以我們可以看到 綜合發展基金只剩下11.6億已經沒有 都快沒有錢了對不對所以呢 我有提案要修正 原基法綜合發展基金的總額不可以低於新台幣100億元我是來拯救我們的綜合發展基金 主委你支持嗎"},{"start":373.337,"end":388.084,"text":"支持 支持你支持嗎 支持好 謝謝 記得你今天說的話喔不要到時候我們在這邊又放的時候你們又不有意見喔來 另外我要問族人最關心的問題了就是九月份依法我們的族人可以領得到一公頃六萬塊的進法補償嗎"},{"start":392.807,"end":419.752,"text":"對可以嗎可以你知道9月份就要放了喔對9月以後就那請問一下你知不知道行政院已經針對總預算提出釋憲囉是是吧齁如果再提暫時處分所謂的追加預算就沒有辦法進行囉主委你知道這個嚴重性吧是好如果沒有追加預算的話我們基金也剩下11億根本不夠請問族人的補償金要怎麼辦"},{"start":422.777,"end":441.104,"text":"說清楚現在主任都在聽這個部分的話就是說除了晚會動用基金本身的預算跟調度相關的資源另外等於說行政院那邊給晚含也會適時可以協助行政院要怎麼協助他追加預算不能夠用啊那要用哪裡"},{"start":443.929,"end":465.818,"text":"而且你剛剛說你的那個綜合發展基金只剩下11億啊然後如果微銷貸款什麼都交在一起的話你會影響到綜合發展基金應該要用的業務而且錢也不夠啊跟委員報告那個基金因為今年度的預算那個基金預算應該是分次等於說撥入的所以後面還會有那個分配款進來"},{"start":469.345,"end":492.378,"text":"分配款會多少所以你的意思說基金不夠的在公務預算不夠的現在還是要用綜合發展基金來撥補囉的意思嗎那主委你覺得這是長期應該要做的事情嗎這個過去都是用這樣的方式但是我想未來應該是直接在預算裡面在公務預算嘛對不對所以這一次行政院公務預算給你們多少錢"},{"start":493.516,"end":498.26,"text":"28億28.6億根本就不是我們一公頃6萬塊所以它是減半所以我們只剩下多少還有多少是沒有在公務預算裡面可以撥補的"},{"start":510.885,"end":535.592,"text":"大概是23億左右好現在終於大家都清楚知道了行政院並沒有把義工請六萬塊的錢通通在公務預算裡面撥足另外不夠的部分他還是要違法由綜合發展基金裡面來做這是不對的主委你剛剛也一直說了希望以後行政院不要再用這種方式來"},{"start":538.065,"end":542.234,"text":"來給依法通過的禁法補償六萬塊所以我們可不可以這樣說"},{"start":544.335,"end":568.384,"text":"明年的預算我們希望在公務預算裏面補足一公頃六萬塊真正的淨法補償金你沒有必要努力會 我們會努力會努力用這個基金來來支應這個淨法補償它並沒有違法因為以前也都是這樣做啦那當然我們希望未來直接從公務預算那是比較恰當啦"},{"start":570.373,"end":585.933,"text":"那既然沒有違法為什麼這次要在公務預算裡面編然後不編足以前也是這樣以前也是這樣以前沒有啊以前是3萬塊啊是通通在公務預算然後交到綜合發展基金以前是公務基金都有啊對啊"},{"start":587.298,"end":603.736,"text":"好了主委我給你一個任務希望你趕快在明年的預算下一次的預算要在公務基金裏面補足可以嗎有啊加油好謝謝公務預算喔是多少錢一公頃六萬塊的話一公頃六萬多少錢嘛52億多"},{"start":605.658,"end":611.32,"text":"應該是52.15所以我們在下次的公務預算就會看到52.15億是完全放在公務預算所以今年九月份我們的不足的部分 原民會想辦法如果我們的行政院不給你們你們會從你們自己預算裡面去挪的意思嗎"},{"start":630.812,"end":637.918,"text":"那會怎麼樣來講清楚一下我們還是要跟行政院爭取行政院要怎麼給你從什麼預備金嗎我剛剛就說了追加預算如果他騎市線然後暫時處分追加預算是不能夠用的啊那要從哪裡我們會積極爭取可能他也許會從預備金來給我們也有可能"},{"start":657.233,"end":684.335,"text":"不要講可能 九月到現在已經五月底了你知道你的主計長說什麼嗎現在他已經不認追加預算了耶鄭天才委員在經濟委員會裡面財政委員會裡面質詢他的時候他已經不認行政院長簽的那個追加預算了已經不提這個了主委您知道嗎 園民會已經被行政院穿小鞋了好吧 因為我的時間要到了 最後我要問你的就是"},{"start":685.731,"end":690.836,"text":"部落工法人事辦的計畫請問一下最終的目標是什麼要完成的目的是什麼"},{"start":692.574,"end":713.765,"text":"主要就是讓我們的部落能夠部落自主的來決定自己的所以是走向自治嘛那為什麼不一步到位走向自治然後呢你要弄這個事辦計畫然後這個事辦這個所謂的這個部落光髮人事辦計畫其實就我了解長期以來原住民的社會還有鄉鎮市長是反對這個計畫的所以呢你現在"},{"start":717.987,"end":740.153,"text":"不好好跟主任溝通你反而這一意孤行的黑箱事辦現在呢五個部落可以做事辦我們真的覺得很奇怪740個部落為什麼就這五個然後一年可以拿到一百萬然後六十萬是人事行政費到底是要幹嘛然後你要讓他們自己跟這些部落的原住民的鄉鎮市鄉民代表部落裡面產生一些衝突嗎"},{"start":745.796,"end":774.854,"text":"我跟委員報告 之所以挑這五個部落我就擠一個一齡部落來講好了那為什麼不要公開甄選為什麼只有五個為什麼不要740個部落都一起來示範我想我們先做這五個然後在這五個部落當中我想為什麼挑他們因為我覺得他們的這個核心的幹部他們很容易有一個共識不是啦 你共識完畢未來你示範你要讓這些人去做什麼事情嘛"},{"start":775.814,"end":786.246,"text":"他可以拿到一百萬啊對不對那一百萬他要做什麼他要交什麼報告他要在這個鄉裡面取得未來這個部落自治的共識嗎各位報告如果沒有怎麼辦請問諸位你說這五個部落"},{"start":791.411,"end":817.619,"text":"對啊如果沒有取得共識沒有好好的做你還會繼續辦下去嗎還是只有今年或明年因為明年就要選舉了大家都知道你會不會因為這樣子然後挑一個會選舉的部落然後這些人其實是在幫某些人在做一些選舉的工具其實不會好不會那請你要告訴我這五個部落他以後我們花了五百萬嘛對不對五個部落一個部落一百萬嘛"},{"start":819.039,"end":834.658,"text":"因為我們提出了 他們提出計畫 我們也要看不是啦 現在已經是五個部落了嘛 五百萬嘛那未來他的目的是什麼 最終的目標是什麼你要不要定一下"},{"start":835.859,"end":841.424,"text":"要不要定一下最終的目標是希望這個部落可以好我必須要講一下我們必須要一套規則是公平參與這才是制度而不是維民會你想怎樣就怎樣你如果沒有一個非常好的制度我們是部落是沒有辦法信任你們的你反而會產生很多的對立面主委我是提醒你"},{"start":859.741,"end":883.64,"text":"最後最後今天我們要談的是解凍案如果我們看不到所謂的制度健全我想有非常多我在這邊執意要凍結的預算我一定會凍結那原民會原文會我要提一下請你們趕快找一點時間你們到現在仍然拒絕提出合理的薪資結構表主委要求他"},{"start":884.861,"end":905.538,"text":"在我審他們要解不解凍的預算之前所謂的合理的薪資結構表再拿不出來的話我今天依然是要凍結他們預算我會持續來監督嚴格的要求改善我認為這不僅僅是政策的問題而且是對我們的族人最基本的公平的交代好不好"},{"start":906.659,"end":927.34,"text":"最後原住民人才我們流動率非常高在總預算的時候行政院院長有交代一個月之內要給我一個檢討報告請問什麼時候給我委員我們已經應該我們的報告都已經都已經提出去了5月15就送出去了請問一下助理我們有收到嗎"},{"start":932.435,"end":950.185,"text":"我沒有收到喔 主委好 沒有收到我們馬上就可以 有人在這裡我沒有收到因為提案的人是我 你們不給我 真的很奇怪有啊 我提到辦公室 午夜時我提到辦公室在這裡好 待會我們會解凍你們預算 我們一一還是要審查這是我們立法委員應該做的工作謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1006,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時48分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，這邊有很多的委員們都很關心原住民祭儀放假3天的問題，在這裡我要特別感謝召委，當時本席有提放3天假，立法院都已經三讀通過了，所以本席今天原本要在原基法處理的歲時祭儀放假日就可以不用再處理了，但是我非常遺憾的是，我們在審法案的時候，原民會一開始是支持的，對吧？主委在這裡……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：我依然記得你說你支持放假3天，這是族人所期待的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：但是您知道嗎？過了一陣子之後，有一些執政黨委員紛紛地撤案，尤其原住民的立法委員伍麗華委員、陳瑩委員也撤案了，然後再一次說明的時候，原民會的立場一夕之間就不一樣了，你們說什麼？你們說我們如果放3天假的話，我們原住民就會沒有工作了，主委，是這樣的嗎？","我們用數據來說話。看一下，99年的時候，當時放1天假是根據法規命令，我們首次納入放假1天，當時也是很多人說我們會沒有工作，但是我們的失業率是從5.90%降到隔年的5.32%，這根本就沒有影響就業的問題，所以放假會沒有工作，其實是你們執政黨的話術。","主委，歲時祭儀放3天假是族人需要的，今天再講清楚一點，當時我們放1天假是用法規命令，可是現在我們是法律規範可以放3天假，老闆如果不遵守法規，依據勞動基準法第七十九條他要被罰錢的，所以這不就是更加保障我們族人的權益了嗎？身為執政黨的原民會也好，或者是立委也好，應該是要多多的向這些慣老闆來教育他們原住民為什麼要放3天的假，你們要做的是這件事情，而不是在立法院撤案，站在慣老闆的角色上面幫他們說話，然後不選擇與族人站在一起，我真的非常遺憾，主委，你可以不用回答了，但是我必須要講，執政黨的立委沒有在立法院投贊成票，我們在野黨的立法委員全力支持，現在你們要做的就是要教育這些慣老闆，讓他們知道原住民放3天假的重要性在哪裡。第二點就是，你們要趕快跟部落的族人說明，因為族人會害怕，因為你們一直在講放3天假，老闆就不會用他們了，他們會害怕，所以這是有法律依據的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：是必須放的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：如果不放假會被罰錢，對不對？好，既然是有法律的保障，你們應該就要幫族人做法律程序上的一些鋪陳，對吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：希望我能看到你們要怎麼做。","另外，我們回到基金運用上面，為了都會區族人的居住權益，我有要求綜合發展基金必須要納入社宅投資項目，請問主委，你們的看法是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，有關興建社會住宅，基本上還是要地方政府統籌這個業務。"],["高金委員素梅：我同意。"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個事也要內政部協助。"],["高金委員素梅：我也同意。主委，你的立場是什麼就簡單講一下，今天時間有限，你的立場支不支持？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我支持啊！我支持要做。"],["高金委員素梅：我們來看一下，行政院其實在解凍報告裡面也說投資社會住宅是符合規定的；第二個，基金還有45億，未來還會適時由公務預算撥補協處。行政院的說法是我們的法規是容許的，而且基金還有錢，這都是往正面的方向嘛！可是主委，你知道嗎？原民會到114年1月可動用的基金只剩下2.1億了，對吧？主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下行政院說還有45億，原民會說只剩2.1億，到底我們的基金還有多少錢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以動用的資金大概是11.6億，可以動用的啦！"],["高金委員素梅：等於是現金嘛！對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：可以動的是11億？"],["曾主任委員智勇：11.6億。"],["高金委員素梅：11.6億？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下如果基金沒有錢的話，我們的微笑貸款、修繕房屋等這些貸款就會全面停擺了，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下11億現在還可以做嗎？都動得了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有在做。"],["王處長瑞盈：跟委員報告，截至3月底為止，今年度基金貸放款的預算是6.8億，已經貸放了312件，貸放資金是1.8億。"],["高金委員素梅：這樣子還剩多少？"],["王處長瑞盈：就是剛剛跟委員報告的，截至4月底為止，等於說可動用的資金還是有11.6億。"],["高金委員素梅：所以我們可以看到綜合發展基金只剩下11.6億，已經都快沒有錢了，對不對？所以我有提案要修正原基法綜合發展基金的總額不可以低於新臺幣100億元，我是來拯救我們的綜合發展基金，主委，你支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：支持。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。記得你今天說的話，不要到時候我們在這邊，你們又有意見喔！","另外，我要問族人最關心的問題了，就是9月份依法我們的族人可以領得到1公頃6萬塊的禁伐補償嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道9月份就要發放了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，9月1號就陸續發放。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下你知不知道行政院已經針對總預算提出釋憲？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：如果再提暫時處分，追加預算就沒有辦法進行囉！主委，你知道這個嚴重性吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：如果沒有追加預算的話，你們基金也剩下11億，根本不夠，請問族人的補償金要怎麼辦？說清楚，現在族人都在聽。"],["王處長瑞盈：這個部分的話，我們除了會動用基金本身的預算跟調度相關的資源，另外行政院給我們函表示也會適時給予協助。"],["高金委員素梅：行政院要怎麼協助？它追加預算不能夠用啊！那要用哪裡？"],["王處長瑞盈：基本上可以……"],["高金委員素梅：而且你剛剛說綜合發展基金只剩下11億，然後如果微笑貸款等等的都攪在一起的話會影響到綜合發展基金應該要執行的業務，而且錢也不夠啊！"],["王處長瑞盈：跟委員報告，基金因為今年度的預算……基金預算應該是分次撥入的，所以後面還會有分配款進來。"],["高金委員素梅：分配款會有多少？所以你的意思是說基金在公務預算不夠的，現在還是要用綜合發展基金來撥補的意思嗎？"],["王處長瑞盈：是。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，你覺得這是長期應該要做的事情嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：過去都是用這樣的方式，但是我想未來應該是直接在預算裡面來支應。"],["高金委員素梅：在公務預算嘛！對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：所以這一次行政院公務預算給你們多少錢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：28.6億。"],["高金委員素梅：28.6億根本就不是1公頃6萬塊嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：所以它是減半嘛！我們只剩下多少？還有多少是沒有辦法在公務預算裡面撥補的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大概是23億左右。"],["高金委員素梅：好，現在終於大家都清楚知道行政院並沒有把1公頃6萬塊的錢通通在公務預算裡面撥足，另外不夠的部分，它還是要違法由綜合發展基金裡面來做，這是不對的，主委，你剛剛也一直說了，希望以後行政院不要再用這種方式來給依法辦理的禁伐補償6萬塊，所以我們可不可以這樣說，明年的預算我們希望在公務預算裡面真正補足1公頃6萬塊禁伐補償金？你們要不要努力？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，會，我們會努力，用這個基金來支應禁伐補償並沒有違法，因為以前也都是這樣做，當然我們希望未來直接從公務預算，那是比較恰當啦！"],["高金委員素梅：既然沒有違法，為什麼這次要在公務預算裡面編，然後不編足？"],["曾主任委員智勇：以前也是這樣。"],["高金委員素梅：以前沒有啊！以前是3萬塊通通在公務預算，然後交到綜合發展基金裡面去撥。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，以前是公務、基金都有。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！好了，主委，我給你一個任務，希望你趕快在明年的預算、下一次的預算要在公務基金裡面補足，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊！"],["高金委員素梅：好，加油。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：要公務預算喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：多少錢？1公頃6萬塊的話。"],["曾主任委員智勇：1公頃6萬啊！"],["高金委員素梅：多少錢嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：五十二億多。"],["高金委員素梅：好，多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是52.15億。"],["高金委員素梅：所以我們在下次的公務預算就會看到52.15億，是完全放在公務預算。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以今年9月份不足的部分，原民會會想辦法，如果行政院不給你們，你們會從你們自己預算裡面去挪的意思嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有啦！"],["高金委員素梅：那會怎麼樣？來，講清楚一下。","對不起！召委，給我一點時間，我還要問清楚。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還是要跟行政院爭取，因為我們的預算……"],["高金委員素梅：行政院要怎麼給你？從什麼？預備金嗎？我剛剛就說了，追加預算如果它提釋憲，然後暫時處分，追加預算是不能夠用的，那要從哪裡？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會積極爭取，它也許會從預備金來給我們也有可能。"],["高金委員素梅：不要講可能，9月要發，現在已經5月底了，你知道主計長說什麼嗎？現在他已經不認追加預算了耶！鄭天財委員在財政委員會裡面質詢他的時候，他已經不認行政院長簽的追加預算了，已經不提這個了，主委，您知道嗎？原民會已經被行政院穿小鞋了，好吧！因為我的時間要到了。最後，我要問你的就是部落公法人試辦計畫，請問一下最終的目標是什麼？要完成的目的是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最終主要就是讓我們的部落能夠部落自主決定自己的事情。"],["高金委員素梅：所以是走向自治嘛！對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，是走向自治。"],["高金委員素梅：那為什麼不一步到位走向自治，你要弄這個試辦計畫，然後這個部落公法人試辦計畫其實就我了解，長期以來原住民的社會還有鄉鎮市長是反對這個計畫的，所以你現在不好好跟族人溝通，你反而一意孤行的黑箱試辦，現在5個部落可以做試辦，我們真的覺得很奇怪，740個部落，為什麼就是這5個，然後1年可以拿到100萬？然後60萬是人事行政費，到底是要幹嘛？然後你要讓他們自己跟這一些部落的原住民、鄉鎮市民代表在部落裡面產生一些衝突嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，之所以挑這5個部落，我就舉一個義林部落來講好了……"],["高金委員素梅：那為什麼不要公開甄選？為什麼只有5個？為什麼不要740個部落都一起來試辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我想我們先做這5個，在這5個部落當中，為什麼挑他們？因為我覺得他們的核心幹部很容易有一個共識，譬如說……"],["高金委員素梅：不是啦！共識完畢，未來試辦時，你要讓這些人去做什麼事情嘛？他可以拿到100萬，對不對？那100萬，他要做什麼、他要交什麼報告？他未來要在這個鄉裡面取得部落自治的共識嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：如果沒有怎麼辦，請問主委？"],["曾主任委員智勇：你說這5個部落？"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！如果沒有取得共識，沒有好好的做，你還會繼續辦下去嗎？還是只有今年或明年？因為明年就要選舉了，大家都知道，你會不會因為這樣子，挑一個會選舉的部落？然後這些人其實是在幫某些人在做一些選舉的工具？"],["曾主任委員智勇：其實不會……"],["高金委員素梅：不會？那請你要告訴這5個部落，我們花了500萬嘛，對不對？共5個部落，1個部落100萬嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為他們提出計畫來，我們也要看，我沒有說一定要給100萬……"],["高金委員素梅：不是啦！現在已經是5個部落了，500萬嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：那未來他的目的是什麼？最終的目標是什麼？你要不要訂一下？要不要訂一下？"],["曾主任委員智勇：要，最終的目標是希望這一個部落……"],["高金委員素梅：可以，好，我必須要講一下，我們必須要有一套公平參與的規則，這才是制度，而不是原民會想怎樣就怎樣。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道。"],["高金委員素梅：你如果沒有一個非常好的制度，部落是沒有辦法信任你們的，你反而會產生很多的對立面，主委，我是提醒你啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：最後，今天我們要談的是解凍案，如果我們看不到所謂的制度健全，我想有非常多我在這邊執意要凍結的預算，我一定會凍結，我要提一下原民會、原文會，請你們趕快找一點時間，他們到現在仍然拒絕提出合理的薪資結構表，主委，要求他們！在我審他們要解不解凍的預算之前，再拿不出來所謂的合理的薪資結構表的話，我今天依然要凍結他們的預算，我會持續來監督，嚴格的要求改善，我認為這不僅僅是政策的問題，而且是對我們族人最基本、公平的交代，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：最後，關於原住民人才，我們流動率非常高，在總預算的時候，行政院院長有交代1個月之內要給我一個檢討報告，請問什麼時候給我？"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，我們的報告應該都已經提出去了，5月15就送出去了。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下助理，我們有收到嗎？我沒有收到喔！主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好！沒有收到，我們馬上就可以……已經有人在這裡……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有收到，因為提案的人是我，你們不給我真的很奇怪。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，寄到辦公室，5月15寄到辦公室了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝，待會兒我們會解凍你們的預算，我們還是要一一審查，這是我們立法委員應該做的工作，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢。報告委員會，我們在許宇甄委員質詢完之後，休息5分鐘。","現在請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9c49a08c7f008f57b018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d20a0cd956ccde8f9615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:39:37 - 10:47:56","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra 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他們全部都辭職了全部都辭職有的已經是大概一半以上都有別的工作了要去必須要去找別的工作了嘛所以沒有辦法再為原民做這些相關的這些原本他在宣導服務等等這些那這些業務怎麼辦這些業務就一樣回歸到我們這個各業務單位喔比如說所以你就是要叫公務員去做這些事情了嗎"},{"start":110.894,"end":135.448,"text":"對就是當然我們的公務人員就會所以是族人領袖或者是這些族人的相關他們過去習慣或者是過去大家遵從這些領袖他可能就沒有這些業務費用可以使用他就辭職了是16個都辭了嗎對非常遺憾那接下來原民會接下來還會再徵聘委員還是有其他的救濟方式嗎"},{"start":136.038,"end":149.556,"text":"我們也尊重大議員的決議希望就是說我們在這個因為少了這些人就少了很多的工作量就少很多那我們希望禁用就是說這個"},{"start":151.416,"end":178.449,"text":"再禁用公務員 再多禁用公務員來承接這些工作我們也不一樣啊 這不一樣的訓練啊像我們民意代表我們選出來或者是當然不一定完全套用在民意代表身上啦跟經過國家考試的公務員他的訓練跟他主要的任務其實是完全不一樣的這大家都知道這沒有辦法取代的嘛那還是原民會這邊還是要去思考其他的救濟方式啊"},{"start":180.489,"end":195.099,"text":"他們因為這幾個委員他們是現在是沒有薪水了就是無極職了對啊就辭光了對但是就是有一些的這個評鑑或者是有一些的這個其中審查考核等等也不"},{"start":196.289,"end":222.037,"text":"縱然說是不會全部都還要用他們來去做我們還是需要他們來做一些考核評審等等的沒有錯這我了解只是說原本這些委員在做的這些業務不見了我覺得原民會還是要找一些救濟的方式來來補足原本的這些我們原本可以做的這些業務嘛那另外一個比較重要的議題就是在內政委員會今年度處理的節日跟紀念日的問題針對"},{"start":223.479,"end":245.967,"text":"原住民族的碎石祭可以給予三天假的問題在這邊我還是必須要既然這個已經通過了我還是必須要從補救的角度來想當然我們支持說原住民族他在碎石祭的時候可以保有他的這些文化原住民族必須要回去參加"},{"start":246.787,"end":258.647,"text":"那三天這個就是社會討論但是也已經通過了但是事實上他在職場上即將會碰到的問題也就是說有些雇主們"},{"start":259.81,"end":282.884,"text":"他們會因為這樣第一個寧願繳罰金寧願繳貸金少禁用原住民族這個問題我們不要再罵雇主了他有他的算法但是我們還是要想怎麼樣來保護我們這些原住民族的這些就業的機會嗎第二個如果他真的在就業上遇到困難的話怎麼樣加強"},{"start":284.458,"end":302.125,"text":"我們剛剛有講到原住民族的這些就業服務站就業服務員跟勞動部怎麼樣去協助這一些我們族人的這些工作機會我覺得這是我們即將遇到的問題我們這些就業服務員對這些相關的這些跟勞動部的這些聯繫的實際的狀況我覺得原民會要馬上來做這些盤點"},{"start":312.431,"end":334.057,"text":"主委你可不可以我們會馬上就是這10個基點還有要我們的就業服務員主動來協助其實我們的75個就業服務員原住民的就業服務員會協助將來我們這些如果遇到這樣的狀況提供法律的諮詢你認為會遇到什麼狀況比如說像僱主有可能因為我那個原住民有三天我可能就不大禁用"},{"start":334.557,"end":361.231,"text":"但是未來我們會有相關的配套措施我們也會做一個盤點就是我們每年的原住民就業狀況調查當中會針對這些有沒有因為是禁用這個三天就不禁用原住民的這個我們會列入我們每年的調查那你有沒有這個相關的這些產業它其實它有繳交貸金的我建議你現在有資料嘛這一些就要開始控管了如果說明年度或今年度就開始發生這些繳交貸金的變多了"},{"start":362.964,"end":390.533,"text":"那就是代表出問題了嘛那就要趕快來做這些社會的溝通剛剛召委也有講到看是胡蘿蔔還是棒子那我們也支持用棒子啊但是事實上這是立法之後才發生的問題啦所以原民會身為主管機關保護原住民相關的這些權益等等的齁我覺得原民會要加緊注意這些內容是我們會好謝謝主委一共齁"},{"start":391.761,"end":419.449,"text":"今年度的預算一共122億那比去年度增加大概12億其中7億是進法補償那裡面還有5億那裡面還有5億的部分到今天即將要解凍的內容裡面那包括比較大的項目的裡面有原住民族教育推展那有原住民族教育推展裡面的兩項就高達了快1億6的經費"},{"start":421.533,"end":434.688,"text":"那我希望原民會等一下還是可以盡力說服當初凍結預算的委員讓原民會相關的這些預算可以很順利的來推動那目前包含你的業務費現在被凍結"},{"start":440.051,"end":469.049,"text":"一共被凍結超過五億來那還有這個族與教會這個一億一千萬那希望主委這一些相關的說法都可以趕快的獲得委員會的來的支持在這邊我先表達會對原民會的這些被凍結的預算支持趕快的來解凍但是我還是要表達對於南島民族論壇推動經費接近兩千萬全部被刪除切斷了台灣原住民跟"},{"start":469.738,"end":494.506,"text":"台灣原住民族跟整個南島的這些互動我覺得這是非常可惜啦那還是希望原民會這邊跟整個南島語系原住民這邊還是保持密切的聯繫活動那必要的時候還是請院長來協助看我們有沒有辦法來繼續來跟其他這些南島語系的這些原住民國家這就是外交的部分來保持一定的互動是好要跟院長爭取會會會好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":947,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時39分）謝謝，有請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，預算之後第一次在這邊跟你做詢答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：原民會在內政委員會審預算的狀況算是不錯的，整個內政委員會給予原民會很大很大的支持，因為被刪的預算其實不多，而且包含去年度大家討論最多的禁伐補償增加預算的部分到達了7億左右，行政院現在跟原民會及主計總處都可以如期編出來了，也可以如期發放了，但是去年度還是有一些原民會相關的業務預算有被刪減，我講的是原民會聘用的民族委員改成無給職，這個部分影響到多少委員？關於目前為止執行的狀況，我想要請教主委的是，有沒有委員因為這樣辭職了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：他們全部都辭職了。"],["李委員柏毅：全部都辭職了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：全部都辭職，大概一半以上都有別的工作了。"],["李委員柏毅：必須要去找別的工作了嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：所以沒有辦法再為原民做原本他們做的宣導、服務等等，這些業務怎麼辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這些業務就一樣回歸到各業務單位，譬如……"],["李委員柏毅：所以你就是要叫公務員去做這些事情了嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，當然，我們的公務人員就會……"],["李委員柏毅：所以這些族人領袖、過去習慣或者是過去大家尊崇的領袖，可能因為沒有這些業務費用可以使用就辭職了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：16個都辭了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["李委員柏毅：非常遺憾。接下來原民會還會再增聘委員，還是有其他的救濟方式？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們也尊重大院的決議，因為少了這些人，工作量能就少很多，我們希望再多進用公務員來承接這些工作，我們也跟……"],["李委員柏毅：不一樣，這是不一樣的訓練，像我們民意代表選出來，或者是……當然不一定完全套用在民意代表身上。他們跟經過國家考試的公務員，兩者的訓練、主要的任務其實是完全不一樣的，大家都知道這是沒有辦法取代的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：還是原民會要去思考其他的救濟方式？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為這幾個委員現在是沒有薪水了，就是無給職了。"],["李委員柏毅：對，就辭光了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，但是有一些評鑑或者期中審查、考核等等，縱然不會全部都還是要請他們去做評鑑……"],["李委員柏毅：我們還是需要他們來做一些考核、評審等等？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有錯，我瞭解，只是原本這些委員在做的業務不見了，我覺得原民會還是要找一些救濟的方式來補足原本可以做的業務。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：另外一個比較重要的議題，就是內政委員會今年度處理節日及紀念日實施條例，針對原住民族的歲時祭儀可以給予3天假的問題，既然這個已經通過了，我還是必須要從補救的角度來想。當然，我們支持原住民族在歲時祭的時候可以保有文化，原住民族必須要回去參加3天的歲時祭，雖然社會有所討論，也已經通過了，但是事實上原民在職場上即將會碰到問題，也就是說，有些雇主們會因為這樣，第一個，寧願繳罰金，寧願繳代金，而少進用原住民族，針對這個問題，我們不要再罵雇主了，他有他的算法，但是我們還是要想怎麼樣來保護原住民族族人的就業機會。第二個，如果他真的在就業上遇到困難，剛剛有講到原住民族的就業服務站、就業服務員跟勞動部怎麼樣去協助保障族人的工作機會，我覺得這是我們即將遇到的問題，針對這些就業服務員跟勞動部聯繫的實際狀況，我覺得原民會要馬上做盤點，主委，可不可以？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，我們會馬上在這10個據點來做，還會要求我們的就業服務員主動來協助。"],["李委員柏毅：請處長說明。"],["羅赫踛處長：跟委員報告，其實我們75個原住民的就業服務員會協助，將來如果族人遇到這樣的狀況，會提供法律的諮詢及申訴管道。"],["李委員柏毅：你認為會遇到什麼狀況？"],["羅赫踛處長：譬如雇主有可能會因為原住民有3天假日，就不大進用，但是未來我們會有相關的配套措施。我們也會做一個盤點，每年原住民就業狀況調查當中會針對有沒有因為這3天就不進用原住民的情況，這個會列入我們每年的調查。"],["李委員柏毅：你有沒有瞭解相關的產業其實有繳交代金的，我建議你現在……"],["羅赫踛處長：我們這個有資料。"],["李委員柏毅：有資料嘛？"],["羅赫踛處長：是。"],["李委員柏毅：這些就要開始控管了。"],["羅赫踛處長：是。"],["李委員柏毅：如果明年度或今年度開始發生繳交代金的企業變多了，就代表出問題了，就要趕快來做社會的溝通。"],["羅赫踛處長：是。"],["李委員柏毅：像剛剛召委也有講到看要用胡蘿蔔還是棒子，我們也支持用棒子，但是事實上這是立法之後才發生的問題，所以原民會身為主管機關，對於保護原住民相關的權益等等，我覺得原民會要加緊注意這些。"],["羅赫踛處長：是，我們會，謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。主委，今年度的預算一共122億，比去年度增加大概12億，其中7億是禁伐補償，裡面還有5億的部分就是今天即將要解凍的內容，包括比較大的項目，譬如原住民族教育推展裡面的兩項就高達了快1.6億的經費，我希望原民會等一下還是可以盡力說服當初凍結預算的委員，讓原民會相關的預算可以很順利地推動。目前你們的業務費一共被凍結超過5億。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["李委員柏毅：還有族語教會1億1,000萬，希望主委相關的說法都可以趕快獲得委員會的支持，在此我先表達會支持原民會被凍結的預算趕快解凍。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：但是我還是要表達對於南島民族論壇推動經費接近2,000萬全部被刪除，切斷了臺灣原住民族跟整個南島民族的互動，我覺得這是非常可惜的，還是希望原民會跟整個南島語系原住民能夠保持密切的聯繫，必要的時候還是請院長來協助，看看有沒有辦法繼續跟其他南島語系的原住民國家保持一定的互動，這就是外交的部分。主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["李委員柏毅：要跟院長爭取。"],["曾主任委員智勇：會。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","下一位請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f91fbafcb9f2c6b2c2018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d20e7b941279cec53335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:28:32 - 10:39:29","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T10:28:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T10:39:29+08:00","duration":657,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.3678437500000005,"end":6.966593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.459093750000001,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.235343750000002,"end":48.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.77909375,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.213468750000004,"end":47.719718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.28471875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.23096875,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.75784375,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.94346875000001,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.97721875,"end":100.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.99409375,"end":101.07846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.09534375000001,"end":138.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.28346875,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.73471875,"end":141.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.07221875000002,"end":143.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.62471875,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.92409375,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.54846875,"end":146.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.53471875,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.56409375,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.44971875000002,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.95159375,"end":163.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.21221875,"end":164.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.64659375000002,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.94534375,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.90284375000002,"end":172.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.98909375000002,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.49471875,"end":216.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.47346875000002,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.77346875,"end":223.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.06784375,"end":227.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.35409375,"end":227.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.86034375000003,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.41284375,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.50471875000002,"end":236.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.62596875000003,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.47971875,"end":293.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.87534375,"end":316.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.72409375,"end":317.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.12909375000004,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.20409375,"end":324.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.90846875,"end":326.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.17409375,"end":331.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.90721875,"end":361.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.66221875,"end":335.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.21034375000005,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.96596875,"end":364.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.56909375000004,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.02409375,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.96034375000005,"end":372.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.05721875,"end":372.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.74909375000004,"end":376.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.85409375,"end":379.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.96784375000004,"end":377.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.59221875000003,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.00971875000005,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.39721875000004,"end":394.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.67909375000005,"end":389.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.82159375000003,"end":405.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.21659375,"end":418.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.53096875,"end":422.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.87659375000004,"end":478.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.53409375,"end":495.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.30784375,"end":507.29346875000005},{"spe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主委好 主委今天又是圓明會的業務報告每次看到圓明會的業務報告就覺得其實圓明會真的很辛苦你看看這樣子一本小小的報告裡面包山包海從憲法層次的議題到內政到教育到衛福到衛政到經濟到環境文化還要有外交這真的是圓明會包山包海真的很辛苦"},{"start":41.542,"end":69.622,"text":"應該說有原住民的地方就要有原民會這個同意嗎也覺得很辛苦對不對你不敢講好啦但是我知道說資源有限量能也有限但是就是在這樣的狀況下我以為其實原民會最重要的工作其實是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度"},{"start":70.662,"end":89.538,"text":"對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做但是其他所有的部會對於原民議題沒有概念我覺得你要反向思考原民會其實最大的工作就是讓政府的其他部會有"},{"start":91.46,"end":114.937,"text":"這個文化的敏感度同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題主委你同不同意這個看法同意因為這樣的話你們是負責看別人怎麼做啊對不對自己其實可以降低你的業務量壓力但同時去讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要把預算亂花嘛"},{"start":116.178,"end":138.013,"text":"好 那我今天就用教育的這個題目來跟你討論你既然同意剛剛的說法 我就看原民會有沒有做到來 主委 我們的這個原住民族教育法裡面讓我們創設兩個這個教育的體系嘛 制度一個是原住民族實驗教育學校一個是原住民重點學校主委請問這兩個制度有什麼差別"},{"start":139.349,"end":163.841,"text":"追尋法規目的都可以 簡答就好 好不好 簡答其實原住民中學校是在原住民中學校裡面另外在做實驗教育的學校蛤 你確定要這樣回答嗎我想應該不是這樣啦好 那我這樣問好了 你覺得這個發動權在哪裡這兩個制度的話在地方政府"},{"start":164.707,"end":188.129,"text":"原住民重點學校是依據原住民教育法所規定他學生比例達到一定的比例就是原住民重點學校所以這個是對的沒有錯原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛他的只要原住民在這個原住民的地區裡面他的人數學生到達學校比例的一定數字或者是比例其實就是重點學校嘛對不對那實驗教育學校咧所以假如就是如果是"},{"start":188.749,"end":215.898,"text":"這個學校他願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話所以發的發動權是誰是學校嘛所以不是地方政府所以從發動權就有極大的差別了好 那我問你重點學校那重點學校的話既然他是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對是學校的人數那他什麼時候會成為重點學校什麼時候不成為重點學校他的資源 師資 人力等等會有差別嗎"},{"start":217.098,"end":241.199,"text":"如果是依照原住民教育的關係原住民中等學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任對 沒有錯嘛這些事情整個原住民中等學校主管機關是誰教育部你們有跟他討論過嗎其實過去很多人都有觀察問題就是原住民學校的原住民師資的比例的問題問題在哪裡問題就是地方政府在禁用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法去符合這個目標"},{"start":242.694,"end":259.361,"text":"我覺得出場你這樣打不是重點啦重點來我給你看我們在地方選區我自己在新北市嘛我們新北市是這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民所以很明顯你看我109年到111學年度我的國小跟國中高中"},{"start":260.521,"end":274.454,"text":"對不對 是重點學校的是這一排好 你再看112年度到114年度它的重點學校一樣嗎然後我們就比大同國小就好了它這三年因為它有超過100它就是重點學校接下來它99人它就不是重點學校了所以它的師資就要重新調整啊對啊 然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊怎麼會差一個人 差一個人"},{"start":283.382,"end":292.876,"text":"那整個狀況就不一樣了我的丹鳳國小也是啊一下子是重點學校一下不是重點學校一下又是重點學校了那我到底是不是要禁用這個原住民級的教師"},{"start":294.059,"end":314.764,"text":"這不是才是問題所在嗎他的對原住民孩子的教育的延續性沒有一貫性嘛對不對好那我再跟你說這個這個師資的部分好了剛剛我有聽到原民會這邊在講嘛說你們對足語老師的這個認證方式這個要求的方式本來有足語的要求嘛對不對啊現在現在呢"},{"start":317.064,"end":331.74,"text":"過去是要高級現在我們調那個教育部因為資資的不足我們把它跟教育部合作調整為中高級好 那一般教師咧一般教師沒有所以我們新北市要來當原住民籍的一般老師的認證 主委認證還是高級啊"},{"start":333.304,"end":361.469,"text":"對啊是高級啊要有這個高級啊有啊我們這個老師申請的資格其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊我們在透過你看各縣市的教師申試檢章剛剛舉行完嘛各縣市大多是採分流制將原住民考生歸為一組你看像台東縣只要你是原住民級初試的總成績就可以加10%但是新北市呢除了是要原住民級之外還要通過原住民足語能力認證高級以上啊"},{"start":362.089,"end":371.788,"text":"這是正式教師的正式對 我就在跟你說一般教師正式教師啊那台東的跟新北的為什麼可以有這種差距因為這個各地方政府依照他們自己的正式規定那你的態度是什麼"},{"start":372.799,"end":394.238,"text":"我的態度認為這個事還是要尊重地方政府你什麼東西都尊重地方政府我問你你的態度是什麼一般教師他必須不是去擔任主委教師他還是做一般教學課可是你剛剛說我們的重點學校裡面要有這個族群的老師啊要有族籍的老師那我現在就是我現在又是重點學校了結果我的老師還是招不到啊"},{"start":396.319,"end":417.99,"text":"據說一般政治教師到學校去他不是擔任主語教學工作他是做一般學校工作所以他的語言能力我們相對應該不需要到高級啦我的看法是這樣子可是對啊那我現在就是是啊我的教徵裡面我的教徵裡面就是新北市除了要原住民籍之外還要通過原住民主語的認證高級出示才可以加分啊那為什麼"},{"start":418.59,"end":424.453,"text":"那這是因為他是地方政府他自己針對他教師的需求你看我們不是鬼打牆嗎這是繞圈圈啊所以我的意思沒有這個不是這樣你看我們不是在討論誰可以變成是老師我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分嘛對不對我們是在討論加分政策那台東的話只要你是原住民身份我就加分新北市的話是除了原住民還要有族語認證嘛"},{"start":445.785,"end":463.723,"text":"可是我們在應徵的是一般老師喔對不對那只是你要求足以認證是可不可以成為加分的條件嘛所以我們在討論的是這個那但是因為牽扯到另外一個問題是如果是在這個重點原住民重點學校的時候他"},{"start":464.424,"end":478.512,"text":"成為重點學校他就要求要有族群的老師的時候那這種人很難找啊而且有時候我這三年是重點學校我就要老師啊明年我又不是重點學校了我可能就又不要了啊又要又不要"},{"start":479.574,"end":506.825,"text":"就南上加南嘛所以你要進入到新北市當這個有原住民籍身分老師你就少了比台東就少了一點這個加分的機會這也是實話啊那我問的就是你的態度是什麼我當然知道一尊重地方政府是一個大家都基本的態度啦但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情啦對不對然後回到今天的前提我剛剛在說的是"},{"start":507.845,"end":525.109,"text":"這些事情的主管機關對 都是教育部但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過嘛所以我的意思是說其實原住民的問題就像你寫的方方面面真的包山包海我們所有在社會上生活的問題因為我有原住民籍"},{"start":525.669,"end":546.117,"text":"就會通通都可以有另外一個管道解決或我會有另外的難處所以我們需要成立原民會嘛那我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上你們其實可以思考另外一種方式是你真的是用你的族群觀點 族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況這些問題 老師的問題 教育的問題"},{"start":549.958,"end":562.825,"text":"其實在教育部啊 主管機關也是教育部啊但是教育部可能沒有你懂問題在哪裡所以你去跟他講 反正最後錢也他出 規定也他做你就是在旁邊看說 欸 我覺得這樣比較好喔這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了我的學校 丹鳳國小 大同國小"},{"start":574.656,"end":590.651,"text":"因為有補助 今年可以開計劃案下一次 少一個學生變99人沒有補助了 這樣對嗎後年同學說 又來了 又多一個學生了現在101個 又可以是重點學校了這樣不是很奇怪嗎所以今天在這裡 我想您的態度主委 講一下吧"},{"start":601.052,"end":616.273,"text":"我想要謝謝委員的指教那我想我們會主動來跟新北市政府希望請他們就是說剛剛講的那個希望不要那麼硬的是99個100個這樣子我希望說以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則"},{"start":617.458,"end":633.71,"text":"那個其實是教育部啦我們已經討論過跟教育部討論過很多次規定了啦但是因為一個委員就跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整因為那一調整是全國都會調整那個涉及到資源施支各式各樣方面所以才說原民會"},{"start":634.491,"end":652.899,"text":"要有態度這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛那我是很誠懇的建議啦大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態所以我是建議部會你們櫃會可以調整這個執行業務的思維多跟其他部會合作其實可以事半功倍啦謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":895,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時28分）謝謝主席，請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委，有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。今天又是原民會的業務報告，每次看到原民會的業務報告，就覺得原民會真的很辛苦，在這樣一本小小的報告裡面，包山包海，從憲法層次的議題，到內政、到教育、到衛政、到經濟、到環境、到文化，還有外交耶！原民會包山包海，真的很辛苦！可以說有原住民的地方就要有原民會，主委同意嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：也覺得很辛苦啦！對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你不敢講辛苦。好啦！我知道資源有限，量能也有限，但就是在這樣的狀況下，我認為其實原民會最重要的工作是提升整個政府其他部會對原住民族的文化敏感度，對原住民族的認識族群的敏感度，其實會比小小的原民會自己在這邊拼命努力做好，但是其他所有部會對於原民議題沒有概念，我覺得你要反向思考，其實原民會最重要的工作就是讓政府其他部會有文化的敏感度，同時可以協調其他各部會來合作處理原住民的議題。主委，你同不同意這個看法？"],["曾主任委員智勇：同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為這樣的話，你們是負責看別人怎麼做，對不對？如此一來，可以降低你的業務量壓力，同時讓其他部會在做事情的時候不要亂花預算。","我今天就用教育的題目來跟你討論，你既然同意剛剛的說法，我就看原民會有沒有做到。主委，原住民族教育法裡面創設了兩個教育的體系制度，一個是原住民族實驗教育學校，另一個是原住民重點學校，請問這兩個制度有什麼差別？遵循法規、目的都可以，簡答就好，問題在後面，簡答就好了。"],["陳處長坤昇：謝謝委員，原住民族實驗學校就是在原住民綜合學校裡面另外再做實驗教育的學校。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你確定要這樣回答嗎？我想應該不是這樣啦！那我這樣問好了，你覺得這個發動權在哪裡？這兩個制度的話……"],["陳處長坤昇：在地方政府。原住民重點學校是依據原住民族教育法所規定，當學生達到一定比例就是原住民重點學校。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這個是對的，沒有錯，原住民重點學校是地方政府嘛！只要在原住民的地區裡面，學生人數到達一定數字或者是比例，其實就是重點學校對不對？那實驗教育學校呢？"],["陳處長坤昇：是，實驗教育學校就是如果這個學校願意來從事原住民實驗教育的話，它……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以發動權是誰？是學校嘛！並不是地方政府，所以從發動權就有極大的差別了。好，那我來問你重點學校，以重點學校來說的話，它是因為有一個硬性的標準在這裡對不對？也就是原住民學生的人數，那它什麼時候會成為重點學校？什麼時候不成為重點學校？它的資源、師資、人力等等會有差別嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：如果是依照原住民教育法的規定，原住民重點學校的師資要優先由原住民來擔任。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，沒有錯，那整個原住民重點學校的主管機關是誰？"],["陳處長坤昇：教育部。"],["蘇委員巧慧：就這個問題你們有跟它討論過嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：其實過去很多委員都有關心這個問題，就是原住民學校原住民師資比例的問題，很多……"],["蘇委員巧慧：問題在哪裡？"],["陳處長坤昇：問題就是地方政府在進用原住民的師資上一直沒有辦法符合這個目標。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得處長你這樣答不是重點，我來讓你看重點，我自己的選區在新北市，新北市這個地方其實有最多的都市原住民，很明顯從109年到111學年度，國小、國中、高中的重點學校是這一排。你再看從112年度到114年度，它的重點學校一樣嗎？我們以大同國小來比就好了，這三年因為它有超過100人，所以它就是重點學校，接下來變成99人，它就不是重點學校了，所以它的師資就要重新調整，然後它能夠補助的計畫也不一樣啊！怎麼會差1個人整個狀況就不一樣？包括丹鳳國小也是，一下子是重點學校，一下子不是重點學校，一下子又變成是重點學校了，那我到底要不要進用原住民籍的教師，這不才是問題所在嗎？對原住民孩子教育的延續沒有一貫性嘛，對不對？我再跟你說師資的部分好了，剛剛我有聽到原民會在講，你們對族語老師本來有族語認證的要求對不對？請問現在呢？"],["陳處長坤昇：過去是要高級，現在因為師資不足，我們跟教育部合作把他調整為中高級。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那一般教師呢？"],["陳處長坤昇：一般教師沒有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但新北市要來當原住民籍一般老師的族語認證還是要高級啊！要有高級啊！"],["陳處長坤昇：沒有，都一樣……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有啊，關於老師申請的資格，其實各縣市也是不一樣的啊！你看剛剛舉辦完的各縣市教師甄試簡章，各縣市大多是採分流制，將原住民考生歸為一組，你看像臺東縣，只要你是原住民籍，初試的總成績就可以加10%，但是新北市除了要原住民籍之外，還要通過原住民族語能力認證高級以上啊！"],["陳處長坤昇：這是正式教師的甄試。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我就是在跟你說一般教師、正式教師啊！臺東和新北為什麼可以有這種差距？"],["陳處長坤昇：因為這是各地方政府依照他們自己甄試的規定……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你的態度是什麼？"],["陳處長坤昇：我的態度是認為這還是要尊重地方政府啦，因為……"],["蘇委員巧慧：什麼東西都尊重地方政府！我問你，你的態度是什麼？"],["陳處長坤昇：因為一般教師他不是去擔任族語教師，他還是做一般教學課……"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是你剛剛說重點學校裡面要有族籍的老師，我現在又是重點學校了，結果我的老師還是招不到，對不對？"],["陳處長坤昇：一般正式教師到學校去並不是擔任族語教學工作，他還是做一般教學工作，所以他的語言能力相對應該不需要到高級，我的看法是這樣子。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊，但是在教甄裡面就是規定新北市除了要原住民籍之外，還要通過原住民族語言高級認證，初試才可以加分啊！這是為什麼？"],["陳處長坤昇：這是地方政府針對教師的需求……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你看這不是鬼打牆嗎？這是繞圈圈啊！我們不是在討論誰可以變成老師，我們現在在討論的是誰可以在成為老師的這個關卡得到原住民籍的加分，對不對？我們是在討論加分政策，在臺東的話，只要你是原住民身分就可以加分；在新北市的話，除了要有原住民身分，還要有族語認證嘛！可是我們在應徵的是一般老師，對不對？只是族語認證可不可以成為加分的條件嘛！"],["陳處長坤昇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們在討論的是這個，而這牽扯到另外一個問題是，一旦成為原住民重點學校，它就被要求要有族群老師，這種人很難找啊！而且有時候我這三年是重點學校，我就要老師，明年我又不是重點學校了，我可能就又不要了啊！一下要一下又不要就難上加難嘛！所以要進入新北市當有原住民籍身分的老師就比臺東少了一點加分的機會，這也是實話啊！我問的就是你的態度是什麼？我當然知道尊重地方政府是一個基本的態度，但是你有沒有跟地方政府溝通就是另外一件事情。","回到今天的前提，我剛剛在說的是這些事情的主管機關都是教育部，但你們有沒有就這種問題去跟教育部討論過？我的意思是說，其實原住民的問題就像你寫的，方方面面、包山包海，所有在社會上生活的問題，因為我有原住民籍就通通可以有另外一個管道解決，或我會有另外的難處，所以我們需要成立原民會，我覺得原民會真的不需要把所有事情攬在自己身上，你們其實可以思考另外一種方式，你用你的族群觀點、族群意識去增加跟其他部會溝通的狀況，包括老師的問題、教育的問題，其實主管機關也是教育部啊！但是教育部可能沒有比你懂問題在哪裡，所以你去跟它講，反正最後錢也是它出，規定也是它做，你就是在旁邊看，然後說：我覺得這樣比較好喔！這樣不是比較容易解決我們真正遇到的問題嗎？不然我就跟你講剛剛的那個問題就好了，丹鳳國小、大同國小因為有補助，今年可以開計畫案，但是下次少一個學生變成99人，就沒有補助了，這樣對嗎？後年又多一個學生，變成101個又可以是重點學校了，這樣不是很奇怪嗎？所以今天在這裡請主委講一下您的態度吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員的指教，我們會主動跟新北市政府溝通，希望他們的規定不要那麼硬，非得是99個、100個這樣的限制，我希望以能夠照顧比較多的族人為原則。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那其實是教育部的規定，我已經跟教育部討論過很多次了，但因為只有一個委員去跟教育部討論其實沒有辦法直接調整，因為他一調整是全國都會調整，那個涉及到資源、師資各方面，所以才說原民會要有態度，這就是我今天在跟你討論的問題嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我是很誠懇的建議，大家也知道我對原住民是非常非常支持的狀態，所以我是建議貴會可以調整執行業務的思維，多跟其他部會合作，其實可以事半功倍，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9473a2316ec66ee7a018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d20e7b941279cec53335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:18:45 - 10:28:22","影片長度":"00:09:37","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T10:18:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T10:28:22+08:00","duration":577,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.22409375,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.582218750000003,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.69096875,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.36346875000001,"end":86.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.49846875,"end":86.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.51534375,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.24096875000001,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.63596875,"end":111.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.20784375000001,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.78971875,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.87284375,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.90659375000001,"end":121.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.85159375,"end":122.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.26909375000001,"end":124.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.68659375000001,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.96909375000001,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.27284375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.28971875,"end":131.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.20034375,"end":131.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":147.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.21034375000002,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.68534375000002,"end":159.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.95534375,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.97221875,"end":160.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.36034375,"end":208.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.67096875000001,"end":197.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.17721875,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.20909375000002,"end":263.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.42721875,"end":218.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.71971875,"end":266.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.55471875,"end":274.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.21596875,"end":276.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.47284375000004,"end":292.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.54221875,"end":303.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.65471875000003,"end":308.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.27471875000003,"end":304.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.13096875,"end":305.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.37971875,"end":306.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.20221875000004,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.94471875,"end":311.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.59846875,"end":311.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.20596875,"end":317.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.60159375,"end":324.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":324.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.17846875000004,"end":329.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.88659375000003,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.05471875,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.04909375,"end":343.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.11221875,"end":344.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.56784375,"end":344.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.07409375000003,"end":370.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.99471875,"end":367.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.24721875,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.87971875000005,"end":384.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.40534375000004,"end":401.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.19221875000005,"end":406.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.01409375000003,"end":405.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.58346875,"end":406.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.37659375000004,"end":425.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.67034375000003,"end":418.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.11659375000005,"end":424.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.29784375,"end":437.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.31034375,"end":426.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.61659375000005,"end":497.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.45971875000004,"end":442.91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曾主委好首先跟您請教一下這個我們高雄原博館的進度因為這個是對於整個台灣來說是非常重大的一個國家級的原住民族博物館那這個進度我之前也跟您詢問過非常多次了從去年到現在可是看起來進度是非常延宕的包括說原本其實早在一開始啊是2025年就說要開幕後來呢延到了2027又後來又延到2032年"},{"start":44.983,"end":66.909,"text":"那其實去年5月包括當時的陳建仁院長那包括我們幾位高雄的委員包括一些原住民族的委員我們一起到了該地去視察那當下其實那時候陳建仁院長是直接現場核定了第一期的工程58億可是到現在沒有任何的動工跡象那就我所知"},{"start":67.589,"end":97.069,"text":"中間的一些耽擱是因為去年八月的考試院的人事權因為被藍白杯葛嘛所以到去年下半年考試院的空窗導致於我們的籌備處的人事到今年一月才核定到四月才有辦法進駐以上是不是好謝謝委員的關心我們這個國立原住民族博物館的這個籌備處在今年的四月已經成立了籌備處已經成立了"},{"start":97.769,"end":124.937,"text":"那我們也會有一個驗警管在我們這個月就會公告然後下半年就開始施工施工大概在116年我們就會呈現下半年也就是兩個月後就會開始動工是這樣子嗎對 動工然後在116年初的時候這個整個驗警管就會蓋好大概是1.5公頃也就是兩年 一年半你們就會蓋好驗警管對 驗警管就會蓋好好"},{"start":126.838,"end":145.895,"text":"整個的這個那邊的這個整個戶地是14公頃 沒錯那土地上我們已經處理了就說這個謝謝高雄市政府的協助那也都移撥給我們會裡面那還有一個比較大一點就是10公頃的那個自來水的用地應該"},{"start":148.497,"end":176.622,"text":"現在是還沒有但是現在已經作業到後面了應該很快這個如果如果能夠一波的話就整個土地就算完整了所以我們陸陸續續都有他掌握他的進度好那這就是我要在這邊再次跟我們主委來拜託啊因為大家一直想說去年5月就核定了到現在也一整年了為什麼大家看起來整個14公頃還是雜草重生然後毫無任何動工跟任何進度的跡象地方當然很擔心"},{"start":177.322,"end":196.753,"text":"那當然我也知道中間經過各式各樣包括人事的杯葛包括各式各樣可能一些預算上面的問題等等所以讓大家覺得好像沒有進度但事實上我再複述確認一次兩個月後院警館就會開始動工然後一年半之後我們院警館就會蓋好"},{"start":197.955,"end":208.332,"text":"對嘛好那這個主委要拜託在這邊承諾那我也希望這個真的要如時如期的來進行那再來我也跟您請教一下"},{"start":211.034,"end":225.006,"text":"這個也是剛剛其實有提到因為其實昨天早上不知道我們主委有沒有看到我們有一些平埔族的朋友他們有開了記者會那就我所知因為我知道這個是根據憲判嘛今年10月28之前一定要立法這個是有實現的問題可是目前看起來其實包括我們現在的法定原住民包括山原平原然後包括這些還沒有被納入的平埔族"},{"start":237.637,"end":257.428,"text":"之間是有一些紛爭然後是有非常多意見還還沒有辦法達到共識的我不知道主委在這中間有沒有去找各族群已經協調過或者是大家有沒有初步的共識了目前看起來如果連這個基本的共識都沒有很顯然上禮拜我們行政院院版送出的這個版本平埔族不滿意我們法定原住民也不滿意大家都不滿意那這個版本到時候要怎麼討論你告訴我"},{"start":266.593,"end":292.143,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個版本要出來之前我們就有辦過至少九場的這個公聽會說明會那這九場包括對現在原來有的山地影住民跟平地影住民我們也辦了至少辦了四場那還有五場就是對我們平埔族群也來辦類似的這個座談類似的這個公聽會也有跟他們做說明"},{"start":292.703,"end":316.921,"text":"所以才會有這個原住民族的這個生活法來那我想這其中當然有很多很多這沒有那麼簡單啦就是一個非常複雜的議題也需要尊重各族群所以我才覺得你們要把握時間啊距離立法的期限快到了啊對我們仍然要跟我們特別是平埔的這個原住民的朋友"},{"start":317.662,"end":342.421,"text":"包括他們的專家寫者還有一些他們的地方上的一些幹部我們仍然要持我們一直在持續的做溝通那我們會裡面也有成立這樣的一個工作小組希望未來也能夠跨部會來來做做協調這個我想好那我就問一個基本的問題就好了因為我知道說其實目前內政部的歷史資料來看這個評普組可能算一算可能有98萬人是"},{"start":344.182,"end":370.492,"text":"是嗎 是好 那當然我非常我認為這個平普族的正名運動是必要的只是說現在目前草案裡面23條就規定說本法施行後三年內必須完成制度或修正相關政治參與跟社會福利的制度設計那請問這個到時候要怎麼做這個就是大家最關心的政治參與跟社會福利到時候如果照你們的版本下去要怎麼修啊"},{"start":372.115,"end":385.758,"text":"這個社會福利我們還是要跟他們要做溝通確定他們這個整個身份都出來的時候我們會跟他們做溝通那政治參與有很多因為很多的這個三眼"},{"start":386.243,"end":406.429,"text":"平衍他們很擔心就是說這個平埔原住民進來以後對政治參議是不是有什麼改變其實是沒有啦就立法委員要改變這個選舉的話是要修憲的沒那麼容易跟這個不一樣所以包括各式各樣名帶或是地方的這種選舉的席次不會因此而影響"},{"start":408.109,"end":424.218,"text":"還有如果說未來地方政府也就是縣市議員的選舉即便是有這個平埔原住民他也是外加他不會衝擊現在的現在的3D原住民跟平埔原住民的選舉這個部分當然還是很多人不知道那當然我們還是要不停的來做這個說明"},{"start":425.359,"end":442.559,"text":"好謝謝這個真的要拜託因為然後還有包括社福的制度也很多人擔心說包括我剛剛說了嘛這個平埔族如果加入之後有98萬人可能擁有這個資格那這些人的社會福利要怎麼照顧怎麼規劃這個都非常重要好嗎"},{"start":443.6,"end":465.445,"text":"好 這個要拜託我們再加強溝通好 最後一點時間我來跟這個主委拜託一下因為其實五月初的時候有一位國民黨籍的前立委到中國參加七彩雲南相約台灣的活動然後在現場高掛兩岸一家心聯心的布條那這很明顯其實就是用文化交流的外殼內藏著文化統戰的事實嘛"},{"start":467.265,"end":496.264,"text":"那其實我們也一直都知道說中共很容易把我們台灣的原住民的青年也好這種族群統戰的對象放在原住民族的身上這個其實都做過非常多的研究那甚至他們會用這種文化跟血脈來刻意的說我們都是少數民族我們都是炎黃子孫那我是不是可以在這邊拜託主委你們有沒有什麼對策然後可不可以說明原住民族是炎黃子孫嗎"},{"start":498.926,"end":522.442,"text":"對這樣的一個案子我們都是我們是支持還有尊重兩岸的原住民就是說我們支持彼此尊重但是我們也嚴正的聲明台灣原住民族是屬於南島語系的這個族群那不是炎黃子孫啦是啊歷史不容抹滅這個我們自己的族群的主體性怎麼可以這樣隨便被篡改歷史呢"},{"start":523.363,"end":537.631,"text":"所以在這個相關的這個互大陸交流的個案我們要嚴守我們自己的我們自己國家的法例那我們也不會就是說遭受對方的這個利用我們都有這樣的一個聲明"},{"start":538.877,"end":564.207,"text":"所以這個就是要拜託主委要知道說現在中共很明顯對於台灣很喜歡做的就是族群統戰嘛尤其是針對台灣的原住民族他們是用這近20年來都是用各式各樣的手法在籠絡也好然後辦這種文化交流但實質一直不斷的洗腦灌輸你我們都是什麼中國少數民族都用這種篡改歷史的方式在抹滅我們的族群主體性不是嗎"},{"start":565.207,"end":572.655,"text":"這個就是我們主委希望你自己要有意識我們整個園民會也要有這樣的意識去努力的保存我們自己的主體性好嗎好謝謝主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":848,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時18分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["黃委員捷：曾主委好。首先跟您請教一下高雄原博館的進度，因為這對於整個臺灣來說是非常重大的一個國家級原住民族博物館。這個進度我之前也跟您詢問過非常多次了，從去年到現在，可是看起來進度是非常延宕的，原本早在一開始是2025年就說要開幕，延到了2027年，後來又延到2032年。去年5月，包括當時的陳建仁院長，包括我們幾位高雄的委員，包括一些原住民族的委員，我們一起到了該地去視察，當下陳建仁院長是直接在現場核定了第一期的工程款58億，可是到現在沒有任何動工的跡象。就我所知，中間的一些耽擱是因為去年8月考試院人事同意權被藍白杯葛，所以去年下半年考試院的空窗導致籌備處的人事到今年1月才核定，到4月才有辦法進駐。是不是以上說的這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員的關心，國立原住民族博物館籌備處今年4月已經成立了，我們還有一個願景館，這個月就會公告，下半年開始施工，大概116年就會呈現這個願景館……"],["黃委員捷：下半年？也就是2個月後就會開始動工，是這樣子嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，動工。然後在116年初的時候，整個願景館就會蓋好，大概是1.5公頃……"],["黃委員捷：也就是一年半就會蓋好願景館？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對、對、對，願景館就會蓋好。那邊整個腹地是14公頃……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝高雄市政府的協助，土地已經移撥我們會裡面。還有一個比較大一點的就是10公頃的那個自來水用地，現在是還沒有，但是已經作業到後面了，應該很快，這個如果能夠移撥的話，整個土地就算完整了。所以我們陸陸續續都有掌握它的進度。"],["黃委員捷：好，這就是我要在這邊再次拜託主委的，因為大家一直說去年5月就核定了，到現在也一整年了，為什麼看起來整個14公頃還是雜草叢生，毫無任何動工、任何進度的跡象，地方當然很擔心。我也知道這中間經歷了各式各樣人事上的杯葛和預算上的問題，所以讓大家覺得好像沒有進度，但事實上我再複述、確認一次：兩個月後願景館就會開始動工，一年半之後願景館就會蓋好？對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對！"],["黃委員捷：好，針對這個部分，要拜託主委在這邊承諾，我也希望真的如質如期地來進行。","接下來我要跟主委請教的是，剛剛也有提到昨天早上有一些平埔族的朋友開了記者會，不知道主委有沒有看到？據我所知，根據憲判，今年10月28日之前一定要立法，這有時限的問題，可是目前看起來其實包括現在的法定原住民，包括山原、平原，然後包括這些還沒有被納入的平埔族之間是有一些紛爭，而且有非常多意見還沒有辦法達成共識，我不知道主委在這中間有沒有去找各族群進行協調，或者是大家有沒有初步共識了？目前看起來如果連基本共識都沒有，很顯然，對於上禮拜行政院送出的版本，平埔族不滿意，法定原住民也不滿意，大家都不滿意，那麼這個版本到時候要怎麼討論？你告訴我！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，我們這個版本要出來之前就辦過至少9場的公聽會、說明會，這9場包括對現在原有的山地原住民跟平地原住民至少辦了4場，還有5場是針對平埔族群舉辦的，類似座談和公聽會，也跟他們做了說明，所以才會有這個「平埔原住民族群身分法」草案出來。其中當然有很多、很多的……這沒有那麼簡單啦！山地原住民與平地原住民……"],["黃委員捷：這是一個非常複雜的議題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，非常複雜。"],["黃委員捷：也需要尊重各族群，所以我才覺得你們要把握時間啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：立法的期限快到了！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，我們仍然要跟他們溝通，特別是平埔的原住民朋友，包括他們的專家學者，還有他們地方上的一些幹部，我們一直在持續做溝通，我們會裡面也有成立一個工作小組，希望未來也能進行跨部會協調，我們都有在做。"],["黃委員捷：好，那我就問一個基本的問題就好了。因為我知道其實以目前內政部的歷史資料來看，平埔族算一算可能有98萬人，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：當然，我認為平埔族的正名運動是必要的，只是目前該草案第二十三條規定，本法施行後三年內，必須完成制定或修正相關政治參與及社會福利的制度設計，請問這個部分到時候要怎麼做？這個就是大家最關心的政治參與及社會福利！到時候如果照你們的版本通過，要怎麼修啊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：社會福利的部分，我們還是要跟他們做溝通，在確定他們整個身分都出來的時候，我們會跟他們做溝通；政治參與的部分，很多山原、平原他們很擔心平埔原住民進來之後，對政治參與是不是會造成什麼改變，其實沒有啦！因為立法委員要改變選舉制度是要修憲的，沒那麼容易，跟這個不一樣，即便……"],["黃委員捷：所以包括各式各樣的民代或是地方選舉的席次，不會因此而受影響？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，還有，如果未來縣市議員的選舉即便有平埔原住民也是外加，不會衝擊現在的山地原住民跟平地原住民……"],["黃委員捷：OK，瞭解。"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個部分還是很多人不知道，所以我們還是要不停地來做相關說明。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，這個真的要拜託。此外，社福的制度也有很多人擔心，包括我剛剛說的，平埔族如果加入之後，可能有98萬人擁有這個資格，這些人的社會福利要怎麼照顧、怎麼規劃，這些都非常重要。好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員捷：這個要拜託你們再加強溝通。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：最後一點時間我要來跟主委拜託一下，5月初的時候有一位國民黨籍的前立委到中國參加「七彩雲南．相約臺灣」的活動，現場高掛「兩岸一家心連心」的布條，這很明顯就是用文化交流的外殼，內藏文化統戰的事實嘛！其實我們一直都知道中共很容易把我們臺灣原住民青年做為族群統戰的對象，這個其實都有人做過非常多研究，甚至他們會用文化跟血脈刻意來說：我們都是少數民族、我們都是炎黃子孫。我是不是可以在這邊拜託主委，你們有沒有什麼對策？可不可以說明原住民族是炎黃子孫嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對這樣的案子，我們是支持還有尊重兩岸的原住民的。"],["黃委員捷：支持什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們支持彼此尊重，但是我們也嚴正聲明，臺灣原住民族是屬於南島語系的族群，不是炎黃子孫。"],["黃委員捷：是啊，歷史不容抹滅，我們自己族群的主體性怎麼可以這樣隨便被篡改呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：赴大陸交流的相關個案，我們要嚴守自己國家的法律，我們也不會遭受對方的利誘，我們都有這樣的聲明。"],["黃委員捷：這個就是要拜託主委，因為現在中共很明顯，對臺灣很喜歡做的就是族群統戰嘛！尤其是針對臺灣的原住民族，他們近20年來都是用各式各樣的手法在攏絡，舉辦這種文化交流，其實一直不斷在洗腦、灌輸說什麼我們都是中國少數民族，就是用這種篡改歷史的方式在抹滅我們的族群主體性，不是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：這個就是我們希望主委自己要有意識，整個原民會也要有這樣的意識，去努力保持我們自己的主體性，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9b09b94afe79a45e2018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d20aca9bc7b5eabd6695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:09:20 - 10:18:41","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T10:09:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T10:18:41+08:00","duration":561,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.45596875,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.718468750000003,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.91221875,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.92909375,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.300343750000003,"end":31.317218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.317218750000002,"end":35.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.87346875,"end":48.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.01909375,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.45784375,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.63909375,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.39409375,"end":52.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.680968750000005,"end":54.165968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.84096875,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.625343750000006,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.734718750000006,"end":60.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.48034375,"end":68.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.53909375,"end":70.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.49659375,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.53346875000001,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.96346875,"end":86.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.56596875000001,"end":89.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.85659375,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.01971875000001,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.76096875,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.87909375000001,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.49909375,"end":114.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.21159375,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.54471875,"end":129.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.83346875,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.98471875,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.50346875,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.79846875,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.21159375000002,"end":140.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.71784375000001,"end":145.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.93221875,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.05221875,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.37596875,"end":187.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.81596875000002,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.32534375,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.97846875000002,"end":201.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.97409375,"end":209.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.33971875,"end":226.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.79721875,"end":252.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.08846875,"end":258.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.83846875,"end":260.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.31096875000003,"end":262.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.70721875000004,"end":286.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.02409375,"end":287.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.18846875,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.96721875000003,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.30034375,"end":307.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.04596875000004,"end":322.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.14971875000003,"end":320.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.40284375000005,"end":320.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.22096875,"end":326.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.32596875,"end":327.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.23284375000003,"end":333.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.07159375000003,"end":337.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.90221875000003,"end":346.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.52534375000005,"end":350.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.18284375,"end":355.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.46909375,"end":355.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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他要去登記才可以取得啦但以我們現在的 手頭上的 有資格的 接近百萬啦到底確實多少 我們也無從得知啦我要請教主委的是 那你原民會 你忽然在未來 不要說忽然 在未來的幾年內啦"},{"start":134.059,"end":145.321,"text":"我相信啦應該幾十萬人去登記應該會有吧你們的預估勒對應該會相當於現在的原住民好那你所有的喔"},{"start":146.221,"end":167.05,"text":"原住民身份,在台灣具有原住民身份的人喔我們就不要說九十幾萬啦,快一百萬全部登記啦一半人去登記就好了啦你的業務量幾乎要增加一倍是對啊你的業務量增加,我剛剛請教你是說這些我們有沒有去準備要做什麼"},{"start":168.41,"end":194.405,"text":"不然你多了一倍的人要服務喔那你的原民會的人員夠嗎那你的經費夠嗎我覺得這個可能是原民會成立以來這麼多年來成立以來第一次遇到人數暴增將近一倍那你的業務量有可能會增加一倍喔"},{"start":195.41,"end":209.56,"text":"那我們有沒有及早去因應我簡單說就好了光他去登記然後去認證身份從地方政府到你為什麼這些你就要花多少人力"},{"start":211.82,"end":239.87,"text":"對 這個我跟委員報告那個整個原住民的人力增加我想我們也已經在盤點我們手頭上的一些資源當然這個資源一定是要再加的那馬上要做的就是要馬上一開始他們一登記我們馬上再做甚至於現在已經有的在做了就是就他們的語言還有文化這個部分是第一要做的就是語言跟文化的部分我們持續要趕快的來協助他們"},{"start":240.51,"end":257.361,"text":"那至於就是說未來在這個人力上還有未來支援的這個藝術上我想我們一定會跟業靈妹來做報告我們也要想死的來盤查他們陸續會碰到不管是醫療啦不管是就業啦不管是社會福利等等我們都會盤點出來"},{"start":260.418,"end":285.847,"text":"我必須要說啦我們當初整個園民會設計的初衷跟架構其實是沒有平埔族原住民這一塊喔這個是一個相當大的轉變喔那你的服務的內容等等的這其實是從園民會成立以來這一個是非常非常巨大的轉變喔這個"},{"start":288.274,"end":307.55,"text":"也不是說立法院要怎麼樣喔我會覺得是說這個是我們原民會要真的要去及早應應去處理這些事剛剛主委你所說的他們的文化園那個要去重視要去保留那是一件事情那是原民會我說真的啦"},{"start":309.29,"end":332.988,"text":"這些事啊如果平埔族原住民啊他今天沒有有取得原住民的身份我們也要去做這件事而不是說他取得才做我們本來就要做了我現在可以預計的是你未來你龐大的服務量啊還有我平埔族我已經取得原住民的身份了對不對那我本身"},{"start":334.09,"end":360.772,"text":"我到底可以享有哪些原住民的這個他種種的法律上的他到底是有些他可以適用有些他可以不適用我相信很多你每天接到這個電話你的原民會就會封掉這一點我不知道我就舉這個這一點那主委我們要如何因應我跟委員報告他們取得原住民的身分之後"},{"start":362.013,"end":370.117,"text":"我想他們的這個潛力義務一定有優先的這個排戲我們也會跟他們做溝通做協調"},{"start":371.297,"end":396.256,"text":"那在憲判的精神是未來的三年我們會另立專法就是為我們的平埔族的族人量身打造要怎麼樣來這個對他們的權益我們還有我們有另立還是要另立一些專法來因為原住民目前適用的法律不盡然也不當然絕對就可以適用我們現在的平埔族的族人這就是我要請教主委的"},{"start":401.337,"end":423.072,"text":"所以另立專法是我們現在的選項嘛對不對那另立專法其實到時候我們會有很多很多的事情要討論喔不是你的專法一來大家就哇都照你的喔我相信每個人意見都不一樣喔所以你在這個另立專法"},{"start":423.672,"end":447.387,"text":"你不能期限到的時候你才來這個可能要有很多的社會共識很多什麼因為另立專法就會有他的權利跟義務跟他很多的東西會發生了然後跟既有的原住民族不管基本法或什麼的很多的法令也可能會有衝突的地方喔所以像這個我不知道專法的進度到哪了開始了沒"},{"start":450.151,"end":471.569,"text":"我們現在就是說因為現在是先趕快讓他們取得這個身份那之後我們馬上就會在年底之後年底之前我們就開始現在已經在跟我們的平埔族群的一些專家寫著我們先跟他們來做情誼就希望未來我們有一些什麼樣的話"},{"start":473.993,"end":495.291,"text":"還有我們也會做一些社會狀況的調查不是啦主委我剛請教你的意思說你要另立專法我不反對嘛你們開始啟動立法了沒因為這個很複雜喔你不要以為好像有幾年的時間喔很多問題基本的觀念可能沒有辦法解決喔你這個法令的名稱到底要叫什麼"},{"start":497.028,"end":512.254,"text":"要叫積分法還是什麼法其實這個可能大家就會吵了對不對因為這個相關關係了很多的權利義務我是提醒主委說這一個是你原民會成立以來"},{"start":513.752,"end":536.77,"text":"第一次很大的一個變革,很大的不一樣然後你要忽略人數又那麼多,還有相關法令的這個是非常複雜的,如果你不及早因應我很擔心,到時候會一團亂那一團亂的情況之下,本來一個美意又變成了大家爭吵的一個焦點所以我覺得你們應該要成立"},{"start":538.328,"end":556.756,"text":"一個小組然後甚至跨部會因為這也牽扯到其他部會的事情不是只有你們園民會喔對不對對現在就要開始密集開會討論開始炒你了開始做了啦不然你一定會來不及啦是好蛤好喔好好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝張宏祿召委的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時9分）我們請曾主委。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我想請教一下，我們平埔族的身分修法期限已經快到了，不知道你們做的準備如何？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在5月15號我們院會已經通過，現在也已經送大院了，希望能夠很快排這個議程，我們趕快來審，讓有平埔原住民身分的族人早一點取得原住民身分。"],["張委員宏陸：除了這個之外，這個是法律上的，大家已經都知道幾年了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：這個只是完成最後的程序而已。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我所請教的是，要取得平埔族原住民身分的人數非常多。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：如果我沒有記錯的話，其人數應該比現行平原加山原的人數還多。"],["曾主任委員智勇：按照內政部的統計至少98萬人，現在山地原住民跟平地原住民才61萬人。但還是要跟委員報告，就是原住民族認定之後，取得原住民的身分，最後我們還不知道會登記多少人。但是我們可以預判，在今年底大概會有10萬人登記。"],["張委員宏陸：我當然知道，他要去登記才可以取得。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：但以我們現在手頭上的，有資格的接近百萬人。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：確實是多少我們也無從得知，我要請教主委，在未來的幾年內，我相信應該有幾十萬人去登記，應該會有吧？你們的預估呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，應該會相當於現在的原住民。"],["張委員宏陸：好。所有的喔！在臺灣具有原住民身分的人喔！我們就不要說九十幾萬、快一百萬的人全部登記，一半的人去登記就好了，你的業務量幾乎要增加一倍。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！你的業務量要增加，我剛剛請教你的是，就這些你們有沒有去準備要做什麼？不然你多了一倍的人要服務，原民會的人員夠嗎？你的經費夠嗎？我覺得這可能是原民會這麼多年成立以來第一次遇到人數暴增將近一倍，你的業務量有可能會增加一倍！那有沒有及早因應？我簡單說好了，光他去登記，然後去認證身分，從地方政府到原民會什麼的這些你就要花多少人力！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，這個我跟委員報告，整個原住民的人力增加，我們也已經在盤點手頭上的一些資源，當然這個資源一定是要再加的，一開始他們一登記我們馬上要做的，甚至於現在已經有在做的，就是他們的語言還有文化這部分，是第一個要做的，語言跟文化的部分我們會持續、趕快地協助他們。至於未來在人力上還有資源的挹注上，我們一定會跟院裡面做報告，我們也要詳實盤查，他們陸續會碰到的不管是醫療，不管是就業、不管是社會福利等等，我們都會盤點出來。"],["張委員宏陸：我必須要說，當初整個原民會設計的初衷跟架構，其實是沒有平埔族原住民這一塊。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這是一個相當大的轉變，那你的服務內容等等，從原民會成立以來這是非常非常巨大的轉變！也不是說立法院要怎麼樣，我覺得原民會真的要及早因應去處理這些事。剛剛主委所說的，他們的文化、語言那個要重視、保留，那是一件事情，我說真的，如果平埔族原住民他今天沒有取得原住民的身分，你們也要去做這件事，而不是說他取得才做，你們本來就要做了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我現在可以預計的是未來你龐大的服務量。另外，已經取得平埔族原住民身分的，那他本身到底可以享有哪些原住民在種種法律上的權利？有些他可以適用，有些他不適用，我相信有很多，你每天光接到這些電話，原民會就會瘋掉喔！我就舉這一點，主委，你們要如何因應？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，他們取得原住民的身分之後，我想他們的權利義務一定有優先的排序，我們也會跟他們溝通協調。在憲判的精神是，未來3年我們會另立專法，就是為我們平埔族的族人量身打造要怎麼樣來……對他們的權益，我們還是要立一些專法，因為原住民目前適用的法律不盡然、也不是絕對就可以適用於平埔族的族人。"],["張委員宏陸：這就是我要請教主委的，另立專法是我們現在的選項，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：另立專法，其實到時候我們會有很多很多的事情要討論。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：不是你的專法一來大家就都照你的，我相信每個人意見都不一樣。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以你要另立專法，不能期限到的時候你才來做，這個可能要有很多的社會共識或很多什麼的，因為另立專法，他的權利跟義務及很多的東西就會發生了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：然後跟既有的原住民族，不管是基本法或什麼的，很多法令，也可能會有衝突的地方。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以像這個，我不知道專法的進度到哪裡了？","開始了沒？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為現在是先趕快讓他們取得身分，然後在年底之前……我們現在已經先跟平埔族群的一些專家學者請益，希望未來有一些什麼樣的法，還有我們也會做一些社會狀況的調查。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，主委，我剛剛請教你的意思是，你要另立專法我不反對，你們開始啟動立法了沒？因為這個很複雜。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：你不要以為好像有幾年的時間，但很多問題、基本的觀念可能沒有辦法解決。你這個法令的名稱到底要叫什麼？要叫基本法還是什麼法？其實這個可能大家就會吵了，因為這關係到很多的權利義務。我是提醒主委，這是原民會成立以來第一次很大的一個變革、很大的不一樣，然後你要服務的人數又那麼多，還有相關法令，這個是非常複雜的，如果你不及早因應，我很擔心到時候會一團亂。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：一團亂的情況之下，本來的一個美意又變成了大家爭吵的焦點。所以我覺得你們應該要成立一個小組，甚至跨部會，因為這也牽扯到其他部會的事情，不是只有你們原民會，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：現在就要開始密集開會討論、開始草擬、開始做了，不然你一定會來不及。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，好。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委的質詢。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f959d838597d31ae38018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d208bbdb5b55d1651485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:00:11 - 10:09:06","影片長度":"00:08:55","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T10:00:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T10:09:06+08:00","duration":535,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2878437500000004,"end":4.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.657843750000001,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.742218750000003,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.09346875,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.16909375,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.25346875,"end":34.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.548468750000005,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.93659375,"end":44.564093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.90159375,"end":46.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.96909375,"end":45.306593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.43721875,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.20909375,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.51284375,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.67659375,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.149093750000006,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.38909375,"end":57.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.047218750000006,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.72096875,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.42971875,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.84721875000001,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.88721875,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.90909375000001,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.12596875000001,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.89096875,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.65846875,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.32909375,"end":167.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.14284375,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.70096875000002,"end":175.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.36221875,"end":198.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.73284375,"end":179.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.30784375000002,"end":199.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.67471875,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.12596875000003,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.52659375000002,"end":205.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.26034375,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.15471875,"end":208.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.55534375000002,"end":212.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.47034375,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.01034375,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.97221875000002,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.09034375000002,"end":214.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.15784375,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.39409375000002,"end":219.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.38909375,"end":228.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.42159375000003,"end":231.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.85971875,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.37409375000001,"end":234.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.77846875,"end":277.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.38159375,"end":241.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.92846875000004,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.92346875000004,"end":286.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.58534375,"end":294.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.79096875,"end":297.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.24221875,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.43596875000003,"end":299.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.19534375,"end":299.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.66346875,"end":301.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.87409375000004,"end":302.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.86971875,"end":318.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.18034375,"end":313.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.21409375,"end":313.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.08659375,"end":320.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.28034375000004,"end":322.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.3253437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講話清楚要宣導嘛對我今天就要講就是要順著這個話題往下講就是談有關於這個碎石記憶放假相關的一些配套措施來"},{"start":67.629,"end":81.617,"text":"這個我先問一下把一個修法過程中的一個狀況把它問得清楚就是說我們在3月31號我們在進行這個紀念日及節日條例實施條例在審查的時候這當初來代表原民會的我們副主委中副主委就講說"},{"start":83.298,"end":103.851,"text":"沒有辦法考慮到社會的整體環境跟實際執行的情形如果族人要多放三天假會面臨不容忽視的挑戰比如說勞動市場處於不利的狀況就業機會的衝擊和族群關係的緊張他說因為原住民在勞動業比較多替代性很高所以要尊重實際需求找平衡點"},{"start":104.992,"end":119.344,"text":"那我們當然就問啊說我們希望讓原住民的勞工大家都知道勞工辛苦嘛就希望他工時降低一點不要血汗結果你們作為原住民主管機關自己在講說不要放太多比較好你是這個意思嗎這是你們官方的態度嗎"},{"start":121.155,"end":140.557,"text":"不是因為放三天假當然也要謝謝大院的決定就是說這個可以讓我們在平地的特別是回到比較遠的這個部落裡面這個三天讓他有一個很好的這個時間可以完全的參加碎死記憶啦這個是好的啦那至於就是說"},{"start":141.432,"end":160.099,"text":"這個就是考量到說因為我們所有的價平地放什麼價我們原住民就放什麼價也可以放嘛對那現在是我們原住民又多了這個三天的價那但是就也有一些朋友就說因為怕我們的這個公司行號會對原住民的這個朋友印象會不好啦"},{"start":160.459,"end":185.89,"text":"說又假三天又放這樣會讓我們的原住民印象不好但是就是說我們樂觀其成啦就是說對原住民的祭儀放假大家要尊重就是說希望他們能夠在這個時間能夠完完整整的回去參加原住民的祭儀你要代表原住民的文化價值當然要幫他捍衛這個事嘛不只是工時的降低回去參加碎石祭儀這些祭儀才有人參加才有保留和傳承的意義嘛"},{"start":186.65,"end":212.192,"text":"所以這你當然要堅持嘛 這我是覺得你都想太多了為什麼我講想太多了 因為稅時機往下延伸我們要它能夠落地 還有兩塊部分要討論一個叫紅蘿蔔 一個叫棒子 我就先講棒子 來這個 主委 或者是大家都可以回答齁這個原民萬一在職場 被雇主欺負沒有辦法不讓他放這個假的時候 雇主付什麼代價你知不知道 來"},{"start":214.452,"end":228.056,"text":"那我們全國大概有10區的那個就業服務辦公室我們會有75個原住民的就業服務員會協助我們的勞工如果在這個相關有遇到一些相關被霸凌或是一些相關的一個職場就是要請這次要請稅時計然後如果老闆不讓請會發生什麼事"},{"start":232.59,"end":248.582,"text":"呃當然可以有那個申訴的一個制度申訴是跟誰申訴呃呃一個地方的那個勞呃應該是跟勞動勞動體系嘛對不對是是因為如果勞基法79條有明確規定如果違反第37條也就是應休假日未給予休假者出台幣2萬元以上100元以下是罰還嘛"},{"start":250.123,"end":277.598,"text":"所以它其實是有政策工具可以做處理那政策工具處理這我們當然是希望大家遵守法令對不對你剛剛有講大家都要找勞動局或是就業服務系統那請問你原民系統有沒有特別針對稅值記憶我剛剛為什麼講說這個東西的宣導要很清楚不能只有宣導嘛你還要有很清楚的申訴專線嘛我們要幫原住民的族人講話啊對不對那你們這邊有沒有相關的一些安排讓大家可以更清楚的知道規則然後知道可以這個權益可以被確保"},{"start":278.218,"end":301.154,"text":"我們有10區的一個救福辦公室75個救護員都可以來做一個協助那另外當然如果說還有更好的我們也有法律輔助的一些相關的如果是從經過申訴之後有地方的一些勞動的一些單位我們也都會就近來去做一個轉介跟你剛講說你的10個那個救護員是原民會系統下面還是是的是原民會系統75個都原住民的一個救護員"},{"start":302.114,"end":322.505,"text":"這個部分你要一樣布達給這幾個服務站然後要讓所有我們基層的原住民的弟兄姊妹知道所以有所謂的申訴管道跟諮詢的專線跟申訴的管道好不好這不要只丟給勞動局因為雖然是降低工時但文化傳承也很重要這第一個提醒那我們兩位基金會的董事長兩個基金會的董事長不好意思啊"},{"start":330.373,"end":345.988,"text":"我要花一點時間問啦就是我們原住民碎石記憶放假你們有沒有帶頭做起啊這請兩位基金會的這個董事長文化基金會跟語言研究基金會你們會裡面同仁大部分是原住民朋友嘛對不對他們修這個碎石記憶架的人數有多少佔的比例是多少你們有統審過嗎"},{"start":351.428,"end":377.257,"text":"報告委員我們都鼓勵員工休假而且我們希望在碎石技的過程他可以學習文化所以我們的比例非常高都讓我們同仁你有數字嗎多少人多少人休7乘5不錯有做功課因為我們做電視作業廣播作業比較你也比較清楚有這一套嘛對不對好不好所以你要協助7乘5當然要再高一點嘛來另外"},{"start":378.442,"end":402.678,"text":"委員好 在研議會的部分上在過去還沒有制定 我們已經開始在推動所以在 除此我們可以通過他主任的參與然後去參與寫那個報告回來的時候要做一些的分享以上那比例啊 他剛剛講七成五有修 你們這邊呢基本上我們這是 只要我們的族群的那個制定的時間我們都會讓他們回去"},{"start":403.254,"end":426.176,"text":"沒關係 你會後補也可以啦就是說你們到底多少員工原住民比例然後過去修碎紙記憶的比例是多少所以我為什麼要問這件事 好 兩位請坐我們台視請主委就為什麼要去談這件事情的原因是因為剛剛講完棒子就是法規的規範你要紅蘿蔔嘛 就是說獎勵跟示範嘛我丟一個 我簡單 因為時間到了齁我丟一個簡單的例子 我們的客委會對不對 就曾經在做這個"},{"start":427.799,"end":451.001,"text":"叫做你們原民會有114年促進原住民就業獎勵計畫嘛對不對有雇傭獎助嘛等等這些東西你當然應該要維持但你要課委會曾經做過多元文化的企業社會責任有課於友善企業獎也就是說他如果讓職場變課於友善對不對他會給予獎助給予補助給予鼓勵對不對你原住民這邊也是嘛原住民花更多的心力在討論"},{"start":452.282,"end":469.347,"text":"增加參與率嘛就業參與率嘛讓原民朋友的就業不會變成問題嘛那同樣的你們有沒有針對願意大量雇用原住民或者是說讓原住民有一個友善職場環境好的 這樣的一些企業你們有沒有做過統整有沒有做過鼓勵有沒有做過宣導請你回答"},{"start":470.515,"end":487.294,"text":"像這樣就是說對我們族人比較友善的我們都有做這個公開的獎勵那超額獎勵超額比如說他禁用他超額禁用我們也有給也會補助嘛對那是聘用的部分嘛那比如說以碎石祭這件事情來講我剛剛為什麼問兩個基金會那是你們的這個"},{"start":490.697,"end":510.505,"text":"帶頭示範嘛 比如說原文會有七成五 對不對你們也要去調查一下 到最後是稅時計上路之後到底大家休假的比例是什麼到底實務上他是被壓制的還是有被鼓勵的哪一些企業願意主動的配合法令讓原住民朋友降低工時維持文化傳承 你就要幫他拍拍手嘛"},{"start":510.945,"end":533.895,"text":"你就要引惡扬善嘛 不是引惡扬善 這不能引惡罰惡扬善嘛 對不對你要鼓勵好的對的 然後讓這件事情有紅蘿蔔有棒子讓這個碎石技藝增加 看得到也要吃得到啦這是我今天本席在質詢的時候要特別提醒原住民族委員會謝謝相關的一些計畫 詳細的配套措施跟我剛剛問的一些資料 請你會有詳時提供 可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時）謝謝主席，曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，剛剛委員在討論歲時祭儀的部分，你回答地不清不楚，會讓大家誤會。歲時祭儀假不管是1天或3天，第一，是不是要原住民身分才能放？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二，是自己或配偶擇一參加，其實這樣不就好了嗎？就很清楚。剛剛美惠委員講老公、老婆分屬阿美族、布農族，各自參加都可以，或兩邊參加同一個也都可以。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，擇一。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是如果譬如我老婆是阿美族，我不能用歲時祭儀請假，因我沒有原民身分，就這樣子，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這其實在你們網站上都查得到，加強宣導，好不好？這是第一個提醒。"],["王委員美惠：剛剛召委也這樣說，要說給老闆聽，說清楚一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我順著這個話題往下講，談有關歲時祭儀放假相關的配套措施。我先問一下修法過程的狀況，把它問清楚。我們3月31日進行紀念日及節日實施條例審查時，當初代表原民會的鍾副主委說沒辦法考慮到社會整體環境跟實際執行的情形，如果族人要多放3天假，會面臨不容忽視的挑戰，比如勞動市場處於不利狀況、就業機會衝擊和族群關係緊張，因為原住民在勞動業比較多，替代性很高，所以要尊重實際需求，找平衡點。我們當然就問，我們都希望原住民勞工……大家都知道勞工勞動辛苦，希望工時降低一點，不要血汗，結果你們作為原住民主管機關自己說不要放太多比較好，你是這個意思嗎？這是你們官方的態度嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，因為放3天假當然也要謝謝大院的決定，特別是讓我們在平地的族人可以回到比較遠的部落裡面，這3天讓他有很好的時間，可以完全地參加歲時祭儀，這是好的啦！至於考量到因為我們所有的假、平地或什麼假我們原住民也放，現在我們原住民又多了這3天假，也有一些朋友怕公司行號會對我們原住民朋友印象不好，說又多3天、又放，這樣對我們原住民印象不好，但是我們樂觀其成，對於原住民的祭儀放假大家要尊重，希望他們能夠在這個時間完完整整地回去參加原住民祭儀。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要代表原住民的文化價值，當然要幫他們捍衛這個事情，不只是工時降低，也要讓他們回去參加歲時祭儀，這些祭儀才有人參加，才有保留跟傳承的意義，你當然要堅持嘛！我覺得你想太多了。為什麼我講想太多了，因為歲時祭儀往下延伸，我們要讓它能夠落地，還有兩部分要討論，一個叫紅蘿蔔、一個叫棒子。","我就先講棒子。主委或大家都可以回答，原民萬一在職場被雇主欺負，沒辦法、不讓他放這個假時，雇主要負什麼代價，你知不知道？"],["羅赫踛處長：我們全國大概有10區的就業服務辦公室，有75個原住民就業服務員會協助勞工遇到被霸凌或一些相關的職場糾紛……"],["牛委員煦庭：要請歲時祭儀的假，如果老闆不讓請假，會發生什麼事？"],["羅赫踛處長：當然可以有申訴的制度。"],["牛委員煦庭：申訴，是跟誰申訴？"],["羅赫踛處長：地方的勞……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是跟勞動體系嘛！對不對？"],["羅赫踛處長：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為勞動基準法第七十九條有明確規定，如果違反第三十七條，也就是應休假日未給予休假者，處新臺幣二萬元以上一百萬元以下罰鍰，所以其實有政策工具可以做處理。既然可以透過政策工具處理，我們當然希望大家遵守法令，你說要大家找勞動局或就業服務系統，請問你，原民系統有無針對歲時祭儀？我剛剛說這個政策宣導要很清楚，不能只有宣導，還要有很清楚的申訴專線，我們要幫原住民的族人講話啊！對不對？你們這邊有沒有相關的一些安排，讓大家可以更清楚地知道規則，知道權益可以被確保？"],["羅赫踛處長：我們有10區的就輔辦公室、75個就業服務員都可以做協助。另外，當然如果說還有更好的，我們還有相關的法律扶助，經過申訴之後，由地方的勞動單位處理，我們也會就近來做轉介跟協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛講說你有10個就業服務站，是原民會系統下面的，還是……"],["羅赫踛處長：是的，這是原民會系統，75個都是原住民的就業服務員。"],["牛委員煦庭：這部分一樣，要布達給這幾個服務站，讓所有基層原住民弟兄姐妹知道有所謂的諮詢專線跟申訴管道，好不好？"],["羅赫踛處長：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要只丟給勞動局，雖然是降低工時，但文化傳承也很重要，這是第一個提醒。","再請教兩個基金會的董事長，不好意思，我要花一點時間問，我們原住民歲時祭儀放假，你們有無帶頭做起？請兩位基金會的董事長，文化基金會跟語言基金會，你們會裡面的同仁大部分是原住民朋友，對不對？他們休歲時祭儀假的人數有多少？占的比例是多少？你們有統整過嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們都鼓勵員工休假，而且我們希望在歲時祭儀的過程可以學習文化，所以我們的比例非常高，都有讓同仁參加。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有數字嗎？有多少人？多少人休？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：七成五。"],["牛委員煦庭：不錯，有做功課，要讚美一下。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：因為我們做電視作業、廣播作業比較……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們也比較清楚有這一套嘛，對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你們也要協助，七成五，要讓它再高一點嘛！另外一位。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：委員好。原語會在過去還沒有制定時就開始推動，同時可以透過族人的參與，然後去參與寫報告，回來做分享，以上。"],["牛委員煦庭：比例啊？他剛說七成五有休，你們這邊呢？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：基本上，只要是我們族群制定的時間，我們都會讓他回去。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你們會後補也可以，你們到底多少員工？原住民比例？過去休歲時祭儀的比例是多少？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩位請坐，我還是請主委。我為什麼要問這件事、為什麼要去談這個事情的原因，是因為剛剛講完棒子是法規規範，而紅蘿蔔則是獎勵跟示範。我時間到了，我丟一個簡單的例子，你們原民會有114年度促進原住民族就業獎勵計畫、有僱用獎助等等，這些東西當然要維持。客委會曾經做過多元文化企業社會責任、有客語友善企業獎，也就是說，如果讓職場變客語友善，要給予獎助、補助、鼓勵。原住民這邊也是，原住民花更多心力在討論增加就業參與率，讓原民朋友的就業不要變成問題。同樣地，你們有沒有針對願意大量僱用原住民或是讓原住民有一個友善職場環境的企業做過統整、做過鼓勵？有沒有做過宣導？請你回答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：像這樣對我們族人比較友善的，我們都有做公開的獎勵。"],["羅赫踛處長：超額獎勵。"],["曾主任委員智勇：譬如他超額進用，我們也有給……"],["牛委員煦庭：也會補助嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那是聘用的部分，譬如以歲時祭儀這件事情來講，我剛剛為什麼問兩個基金會？那是你們的帶頭示範，譬如原文會有七成五，你們也要去調查一下，到最後歲時祭儀上路之後，到底大家休假的比例是什麼？實務上是被壓制的，還是被鼓勵的？哪些企業願意主動配合法令，讓原住民朋友降低工時，維持文化傳承，你就要幫他拍拍手，你就要罰惡揚善，要鼓勵好的、對的，讓這件事情有紅蘿蔔、有棒子，讓歲時祭儀假增加要能看得到，也要吃得到，這是今天本席質詢時要特別提醒原住民族委員會的。相關的計畫、詳細的配套措施，跟我剛問的資料請你會後詳實提供，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9a298063e8c92ab09018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d200058b4a0f6ef72a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:46:28 - 10:00:05","影片長度":"00:13:37","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T09:46:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T10:00:05+08:00","duration":817,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.09159375,"end":25.090343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.14221875,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.445968750000002,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.02346875,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.49534375,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.69346875,"end":28.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.258468750000002,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.81909375,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.97346875,"end":64.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":52.242218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":74.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.17971875,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.49471875,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.81096875,"end":111.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.84596875000001,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.91721875,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.94659375,"end":108.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.69721875,"end":147.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.65346875,"end":155.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.24284375000002,"end":161.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.52471875,"end":163.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.88721875000002,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.79846875,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.36784375000002,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.75159375,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.98346875000001,"end":169.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.16784375,"end":184.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.04846875,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.93409375000002,"end":188.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.48159375,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.19409375,"end":198.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.39596875,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.89784375000002,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.91471875000002,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.93159375000002,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.67409375000003,"end":205.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.39971875,"end":215.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":207.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.01096875000002,"end":209.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.41096875000002,"end":215.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.57534375,"end":219.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.33846875,"end":226.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.08409375000002,"end":231.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.67409375000003,"end":246.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.91221875000002,"end":278.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.50221875,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.31221875,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.14534375,"end":319.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.03159375,"end":321.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.93846875,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.19159375000004,"end":328.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.84034375000005,"end":330.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.10159375,"end":333.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.37971875,"end":333.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.30784375,"end":338.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.50971875000005,"end":361.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.91534375000003,"end":369.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.74534375,"end":374.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.60534375000003,"end":377.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.11534375,"end":382.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.49846875000003,"end":384.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.18596875000003,"end":391.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.12159375000005,"end":40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有請主委主委有請主委好 主委好 你要喝茶嗎沒關係 沒關係好 要請教主委我們前主委 花了145萬的"},{"start":32.864,"end":36.273,"text":"我們國家的費用 人民的血汗錢出版出版一個就是"},{"start":40.721,"end":48.127,"text":"專刊一共125頁有41頁是就是講自己講自己41頁60頁就是主委各地的照片還有只有24頁是在介紹延民會主委你在去年被選的時候也承諾說要"},{"start":65.04,"end":68.042,"text":"檢討改進但是目前檢討改進的是什麼去年你有說未來不會再發生但是我們請教一下我們的內部是否針對這個專刊內容審核流程進行的如何"},{"start":83.558,"end":87.179,"text":"針對裡面的一個就是主委說你有無任何的追究的作為或者還是說目前我們的主委在已經下台了整個事件就是不了了之嗎這個三個問題我要希望你謹慎的回答好 不能跟我們我們委員會這樣互相這樣他聽不下去聽到會氣起來沒有"},{"start":111.808,"end":135.809,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個就是說這個我們在昨天已經收到省紀部的一些對我們的指證那我想我們會依據省紀部的一些這個規定我們來做一些回應那而後就是說像類似這樣譬如說沒有在辦理這樣的一個項目的時候我們就不要再繼續編下去了就不要再編下去了"},{"start":136.149,"end":163.429,"text":"第二个那这样的一个专刊我们内部有特别的检讨我们不允许在这样的这个状况在发生我们可以可以做一些就是说我们的所有执行的成果的一个报告但是不需要对个人太多的这个这个先养自己个人的一个这个就是整个他的成果我们想我们会做很大的一个改变那今年就没有做像去年就没有我们就没有做已经改变了"},{"start":166.665,"end":176.956,"text":"當然一定要改變啊 要不然怎麼來但是說你改變但是你要追究你要怎麼樣去把這個就是不能這樣子說就整個這件事情就放棄了啊我們內部要檢討要有做一些懲處啊要處理啊"},{"start":185.28,"end":200.268,"text":"所以要怎麼去追回或者怎麼樣去做吧不只是說我們未來你講的我們認同我們也接受說你有新的作為希望大家就不要放但是我們整個審核或者是說他這樣子的話就這樣崩潰了這樣大家就不會去這樣嗎不會啦所以你會去追究會去看說如何去處理讓大家看到的是說我們現任的主委"},{"start":213.114,"end":230.129,"text":"真的是有在做事情但是我們當初這樣子的專康我們的原住民主政策法規收集整理辦理原住民的族人口的基礎資料庫"},{"start":231.75,"end":245.572,"text":"的規劃及建設的研究項目挪用來所以凍結時說明要求人民會要提出具體的計畫但是我看到報告裡面"},{"start":246.954,"end":251.217,"text":"就是沒有這樣子的內容成效啊所以我們看過送來的報告沒有啊你不能只是說我們檢討過去未來但是的內容我們真的沒有看到報告裡面在從就是說112年至113年整合原住民"},{"start":267.909,"end":292.358,"text":"主人口基礎的資料庫持續執行中研究如何應用都市原住民主的發展也就是說這個並不是一個全新的計畫進行整個就是一年的整合我們再審議算到現在所以具體的計畫內容又如何"},{"start":294.212,"end":320.663,"text":"它是如此進度又如何 效果又如何因為報告中我們沒有看到啊所以你說說的 人工你做了沒拿好就算了所以我們就是要你們報告就是要有一個完整成果因為你要設立目標你才能去執行 才能完成這個目標但是完全我們沒有看到沒有看到的話 你要做什麼 我也不知道"},{"start":322.564,"end":332.372,"text":"那你就講的內容也不清不楚但是我們就是進行一年了一年多的整合這樣看不好過啊那是不是我那個處長做簡要的說明好不好好"},{"start":338.53,"end":361.261,"text":"好跟委員報告那這部分我們原本與這個中研院合作的這個資料庫後來因為我們後來有推動這個原住民族智慧治理計畫我們是把這個資料庫的內容都納入到我們的智慧治理計畫裡面去做後續的應用所以目前我們這個都督研的一些基礎資料的內容都可以在我們的這個智慧治理的資料庫裡面去去做做應用"},{"start":362.331,"end":388.529,"text":"好講得好講得好我再跟你講你講的是生化原住民治理智慧治理計劃解凍案你說放在這裡14年編類的預算新增了生化原住民組織智慧治理計劃但是在之前就有一個就是我們在在這個依據預算"},{"start":392.202,"end":398.766,"text":"法的第五條的規定這四年就是四年期繼續經費該要的計劃內容剛才你說的但是呢的配額但是呢我們這筆的預算呢有合理性還有說預期的時程還有說難以追追蹤的計劃的概念但是呢在我們看喔你看喔我們的在建構援助民主"},{"start":421.243,"end":424.505,"text":"智慧治理中長期計劃同樣的啦我真的要檢舉幾個例子中長程"},{"start":432.011,"end":435.632,"text":"所以我们的内容差异非常笼统就是短短就是陈述主委你看这笔议算是高达5328万但是你们提出的报告写不满一张A4一面的A4不是一张一面的A4都不满就5328万"},{"start":459.952,"end":472.92,"text":"所以呢就多了三個字多了三個字所以呢是實際上的工作內容建構研究民主智慧治理計畫只是"},{"start":474.042,"end":477.985,"text":"換湯不換藥 所以這樣子的話你們就寫的是說優化加強 優化什麼 加強什麼 完全沒有所以我們相信不只原住民的朋友不接受 我們全國納稅前的國民也沒辦法接受你們這樣子的去"},{"start":499.341,"end":507.729,"text":"這個預算的分配這樣子的效果在哪裡看我們主委說明還是我們的你講的嘛 你要說放在這裡 放在這裡就打臉了"},{"start":518.962,"end":537.764,"text":"對 這個部分 因為我們現在其實是 第一期計畫是2010年到2013年就結束那我們現在2014年執行的是第二期計畫那第二期計畫除了就是我們會持續再去收集就是更廣泛的收集這個原住民族相關的散落在各部會跟地方政府的一些資料之外"},{"start":538.445,"end":549.112,"text":"那另外我們也會運用一些新的資訊技術去重新去盤整這些資料然後讓他可以去支援我們的整個決策所以我們第二期會加上深化這個詞的用意是這樣子的"},{"start":552.213,"end":556.496,"text":"深化 優化 加強那個詞大家都要說但是內容是什麼我們看不到我們也要說講這計畫每個人都會講但是內容內容是我們要看的我們想要的是說你的執行是真的達到這個目標達到這個目標才是我們最重要的好 接下來我再問一下就是說我們"},{"start":579.392,"end":607.523,"text":"语推人员的不足的部分语言留存援助民主文化非常重要的一环我们都很认同加上现在政府也推各国的语言我们都很感觉很骄傲这个就是我们一定要保存的但是在我们设置足以推动人员实施计划编列了1亿500万这笔预算去年相比就增加了300万"},{"start":608.763,"end":623.93,"text":"但我們提醒主委預算編列固然很重要語言推廣我們都很認同但是實際行政才是人才的行政人才是我們的關鍵因為實際上全國到去年8月底我們金融人員還不足超過30人甚至四個縣市四個縣市沒有足以推動人員依據我們的"},{"start":639.498,"end":667.652,"text":"設置辦法除了直轄市各個縣市還有原住民人口要達到一千五百萬五百人一千五百人非原住民族的地區在在次公所多應用所以現在呢我們看到的是一百二十三人民還有多少契額因為這個是我們看的是去年的"},{"start":668.223,"end":673.008,"text":"的數據所以我現在今年我們沒有看到所以說明一下為什麼呢我們的縣市怎麼樣去補足這個資料庫或者是說我們應用如何因為我們是來提出問題解決問題所以我們希望說要給我們一個答覆"},{"start":688.988,"end":708.231,"text":"因為根委員報告這個足以專採的人力我們是跟大寫合作來培訓信用合一來增加就業那自己剛剛所講的還有一些事還沒有足以老師的話我想我們會盡快來檢討讓這些沒有足以老師的我們盡快來補好不好"},{"start":711.96,"end":726.083,"text":"怎麼做啊 經開補我怎麼說啊你怎麼樣 就是因為我們感覺就是我們要如何讓我們的就是各個縣市我們順利啊 順利通過這樣的資料庫補足這個人員因為我們傳承我們很重要 因為我們各組的語言嘛各組的語言我們都不足 現在只有"},{"start":737.685,"end":761.058,"text":"就缺了30個人像我們的傳承的語言就就很對不對我們要怎麼樣去說以推人員都不足的話我們希望我們希望就是我們要推廣還有保存非常重要我們希望支持也肯定這個計畫所以我們希望我們的主委還有我們認識的之前在台中的我們的"},{"start":763.388,"end":792.728,"text":"希望就是真的要監督要各個縣市我們要以推人員要補足讓我們的語言還有文化真正的讓我們全國看到也讓我們的語言去到哪裡我們那傳承很重要的希望主委你有真正的作為不能只說我補足補足你怎麼做這個部分我們希望你要有一個具體的因為我們看到所有的計畫內容都不具體只是一句話"},{"start":793.488,"end":807.211,"text":"就會解決任何的事情我們沒辦法接受啦好謝謝因為時間的關係希望你真正的有讓你回答你也誰答不出來所以我們希望你也有具體的給我們讓有一個依據你有一個依據有一個目標你就往這個預計目標去執行這樣你管理你要叫人做到有好處啦謝謝好我們謝謝麥玉珍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時46分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。你要不要喝個茶？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒關係。"],["麥委員玉珍：請教主委，你們前主委花了145萬的國家費用、人民血汗錢出版一個專刊，一共125頁，其中有41頁是在講自己有多厲害，有60頁是主委在各地的照片，只有24頁是在介紹原民會。主委，你在去年備詢的時候也承諾要檢討改進，目前檢討改進了什麼？去年你有說未來不會再發生，請教你們內部針對這個專刊內容、審核流程的檢討進行的如何？主委，你有無任何追究的作為，或者目前你們的前主委已經下臺了，整個事件就不了了之嗎？這三個問題，我希望你謹慎地回答，不能像對王美惠委員這樣糊弄，讓他聽不下去，聽得好像要發火了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，第一個，在昨天已經收到審計部對我們的一些指正，我們會依據審計部的規定來做一些回應，爾後類似這樣的，譬如沒有再辦理的項目，我們就不要再繼續編列下去了。第二個，這樣的專刊，我們內部也特別檢討，我們不允許這樣的狀況再發生，我們可以做一些執行成果的報告，但是不需要有太多宣揚自己個人的成果，我們會做很大的改變。今年就沒有做，像去年我們就沒有做，已經改變了。"],["麥委員玉珍：當然一定要改變，不然錢要怎麼來？所以你已經改變了，但是你還是要追究，不能就這樣子讓這件事情放水流，不能這樣，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們內部檢討，要有一些懲處或處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：處理是要怎麼去追回，或者怎麼樣去做，你講的我們認同，我們也接受你有新的作為，也希望大家不要再犯，但是整個審核或者他就這樣被放過了嗎？然後大家就忘記了，是這樣嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會啦。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你會追究？看要如何處理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：讓大家看到現任主委真的有在做事。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：當初這個專刊的經費，是由原住民族政策法規蒐集整理、辦理原住民族人口基礎資料庫規劃及建設研究項目挪用而來，所以我們提案凍結，並要求原民會提出具體計畫。但我在你們的報告裡並沒有看到該項內容成效之檢討，至少在你們送來的報告裡沒有。你不能只說會檢討過去，展望未來，至於內容我們真的沒有看到。報告提到，112年至113年有整合原住民族人口基礎資料庫，持續諮詢中研院如何應用於都市原住民族發展，但我並沒有看到具體內容。也就是說，這並非全新計畫，而是一個已經進行一年的計畫。從我們審預算到現在，請問具體計畫內容為何？進度為何？效果為何？這些我們在報告中都沒有看到，你就在這裡隨便講一講，若資料沒給我們，是不是這件事就算了？之所以要你們提報告，就是希望能看到完整的成果，因為你們要設立目標，才能去執行，這樣才能達成目標，但這些我們在報告裡完全沒有看到，所以你們到底要做什麼？不知道！你講的內容也不清不楚，你們已經進行一年了，而且是一年多的整合，卻不見任何效果！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我請處長做簡要說明，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：跟委員報告，我們原本與中研院合作建置資料庫，但因為我們後來推動原住民族智慧治理計畫，所以將該資料庫的內容納入智慧治理計畫做後續應用。目前都原的基礎資料內容，都可以在智慧治理資料庫裡做應用。"],["麥委員玉珍：講得好。你說都放在深化原住民族智慧治理計畫裡，所以你們114年就新增深化原住民族智慧治理計畫預算。依據預算法第五條規定，這是四年期的計畫經費，應該要明定計畫之內容及各年度的分配額，否則無法審視其合理性及預期的時程，就難以追蹤計畫執行概況。但是你看，這個計畫與「建構原住民族智慧治理中長程計畫」一樣，就少「中長程」三個字而已！主委，這兩個計畫在內容差異上很籠統，尤其這筆預算高達5,328萬，但你們所提出的報告卻不滿一面A4紙張，是一面，不是一張，這樣就要5,328萬？僅多了三個字，因此所謂的「建構原住民族智慧治理計畫」根本是換湯不換藥，你們還寫什麼優化、加強，請問優化什麼？加強什麼？完全沒看到！我相信不只原住民朋友無法接受，全國的納稅人也沒辦法接受你們這樣的預算分配，一張A4僅寫一半，還不是一張，請問效果在哪裡？是主委要說明還是處長要說明？因為你剛剛說把計畫放在這裡，這不就是打臉嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：這其實是第二期，而第一期計畫是從110年到113年結束，114年執行的是第二期計畫。在第二期計畫裡，我們除了更廣泛蒐集原住民族散落在各部會與地方政府的一些資料之外，我們也會運用新的資訊技術去重新盤整這些資料，並支援我們的決策，這是我們在第二期加上「深化」這個詞的用意所在。"],["麥委員玉珍：深化、優化、加強，這些詞大家都會講，但內容是什麼？我們看不到！話每個人都會講，但內容才是我們想看的，重點是要達到目標，這才是最重要的。","接下來，有關語推人員不足問題。語言留存是推廣原住民族文化非常重要的一環，這點我們都很認同，而政府也在推行各族的語言，這讓我們感覺很驕傲，畢竟這是我們一定要保存的。設置族語推動人員實施計畫編列了1億500萬的預算，和去年相比增加了300萬。我要提醒主委，預算編列固然重要，語言推廣我們也很認同，但實際執行才是關鍵。到去年8月底為止，你們應進用的人員還不足超過30人，甚至有四個縣市沒有族語推動人員。依據設置辦法，除了直轄市、各縣市還有原住民人口達到1,500人以上的非原住民族地區鄉鎮市公所均應進用。現在我們看到有123名人員，那缺額還有多少？這還是去年的數據，至於今年的我沒有看到。請說明一下為什麼？這些縣市要怎麼從資料庫補足？以及如何應用？我們提出問題，為的是解決問題，所以我希望主委能給我們一個答復。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，有關族語專才人力一事，我們是跟大學合作培訓，採訓用合一以增加就業。至於委員剛剛提到還有一些縣市沒有族語老師的問題，我們會儘快來檢討，讓這些沒有族語老師的縣市可以儘快補上，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：怎麼做？我也會講儘快補，重點在於各縣市能透過資料庫來補足人員。傳承很重要，這又是各族的語言傳承，問題是各族的語言人才不足，到現在不足的還超過30人，這樣如何傳承語言？而且連語推人員都不足！語言的推廣和保存非常重要，我們支持，也肯定這個計畫，所以我希望主委及處長，能監督各縣市補足語推人員，讓所有人都可以看到原住民的語言、文化，甚至是可以說，所以我才說傳承很重要。期待主委能提出真正的作為，不能只說會補足，重點在於怎麼做，所以我希望主委能提出具體作為。現在你們所有計畫與內容都不具體，只想用一句話來解決問題，這樣我無法接受。因為時間關係，我沒有辦法讓主委回答，但我希望主委能給我們具體內容，讓我們有依據，你有一個依據、有一個目標，就往這個依據、目標去執行，這樣你管理、要去叫人家做，才有辦法。謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員智倫代）：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","下一位我們請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra 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主委本席跟你請教一下這個票三天會在幾年會落實施落票還是每年到票?"},{"start":245.185,"end":252.831,"text":"總統公佈後就直接... 我知道啦 我還不知道總統公佈之後我是說 你知道我們的發佈是...因為...兩名可以修啊對啊 今年就可以修啊"},{"start":263.183,"end":265.285,"text":"對啊,你如果說這樣,不選也要請教也要問,對不對?你知不知道,總統公佈之後,會最少有兩族選不到我如果去請教,這兩族選不到,可以補選嗎?"},{"start":288.766,"end":296.012,"text":"因為普通人,我們這個,所謂我們這個風言之下是說這種祭儀節慶是都在那天,不能說那天過後你還要報喔,不能報嘛,好來,來主委,你說的說不能報啦,譬如這樣說啦,我是阿美族,我的先生是布農族"},{"start":313.712,"end":327.744,"text":"那我又嫁人了,我應該是要對先生走,這樣我是要選阿美族,還是要選布農族,我可以選布農族嗎?可以,因為你嫁給布農族當然要在節目裡面最主要就是說,不管嫁還是娶,你就是選擇一個"},{"start":334.589,"end":342.775,"text":"這樣我說給你聽,如果過了不能走的時候,如果發佈之後,他如果對先生、對太太,他也可以再申請啊像你說的意思,他也可以再申請"},{"start":355.421,"end":359.163,"text":"我們現在通過這個條文必須是本人啦當然啦像我 我就不能唱啦要本人啦對啊 我比較不知道要本人 現在就是說配合的當中一定有一個"},{"start":373.593,"end":379.984,"text":"都工作的,我們沒有這個問題嘛,我們沒有工作的時候,是不是我可以跟太太也好,跟先生也好,來申請啊"},{"start":387.845,"end":391.506,"text":"主委 我如果問你 你也要求 我也要求 因為這十一年是稍微的事情 但是我覺得我們想這個的時候 我們的細節完全沒有說 完全要怎麼修 完全要怎麼處理"},{"start":408.53,"end":421.014,"text":"到現在,我只能問一件事,是否有企業改?因為他們請很多人,就固定要請一個關注民,我們的民間發表的關注民,有的到現在,也不知道,主委,所以我好意,要跟你說,你要想好事,想好好,未來我們的關注民,"},{"start":436.704,"end":442.568,"text":"要去吃陶爐也好,陶雞請我們也好,他才知道有這個問題的存在因為我覺得這很大規模,剛才我來講,有兩組,你們發佈的時間已經過了,對他也沒有說白,如果沒有說白,當中他如果"},{"start":458.922,"end":470.486,"text":"配合性,他可以對配合性請,是不是這樣,是啦好來,主委,在這,本席還要跟你探討一下平補組平補組在大法官第十八十一年的十月,就說我們三黨內,我們就要平補組"},{"start":481.553,"end":491.018,"text":"如果歸納雷冠族民家,但是我們有看到鄉長的認真,要怎麼解決這個問題?還有沒有你認為鄉長站出來,你覺得要再補充什麼來?"},{"start":502.132,"end":522.831,"text":"現在這個我們這個平埔原住民這個身分法已經送來大宴現在當然就是說我們完全是依照憲判就是憲法判決的意旨內容但是我們平埔的朋友當然就是說他們想說最好是所有的權利一概就到位啦但是是最好"},{"start":523.712,"end":531.457,"text":"他是宴会的爱对,是他们的供应感觉说我宴会的社会原住民你再去老府这个房子在这又定的我不是道道地地的原住民但是我们的宪法判决的意思是这样我们要想就是民主别先认定再来认定他的身份他很多他的管理还有他受到的一些这个"},{"start":553.133,"end":561.279,"text":"從過去的這些破壞跟現在的山地原住民和平地原住民是不相同的不相同真的不相同所以一定要用另外的專法來保障我們的這個來阻止平埔原住民現在我跟你說這個問題你要好好去處理因為該"},{"start":574.269,"end":582.834,"text":"認主歸宗 愛紅認主歸宗啦不是跟一個名聲而已說愛一個是關主民跟請菜如果好一點這樣也不夠準確所以這個我們要好好跟行政院跟我們的院會的委員來看要怎麼樣可以再做好事好不好好主委主委在這裡本身要跟你談到一個說你們有"},{"start":603.929,"end":620.933,"text":"電量的價位適當有80年到84年希望透過融資的時候福祉部落的理由好、運作好、生活、公益、產業但是在這個預算正當83年我們有3億4千多萬給你們做但是第三季的時候應該執行"},{"start":632.615,"end":637.282,"text":"39% 但是你們的認證和發表的這個時間今天你們收起來報告到整間本縣辦公室 跟你們要的資料看 一定是"},{"start":649.892,"end":656.315,"text":"八十七趴,最緊要八十八趴,但是主委我要跟你說,不只是有的出,也有的走,沒的出慢慢走,你看第三季到現在的時間多多,是因為什麼關係,才會差很多,等於一倍的執行率,所以本身要跟你說,要好啊,"},{"start":677.265,"end":681.949,"text":"去做,因為年輕人就要年輕,不要慢慢走,有錢就有做再來,我們行政院的新董事,更好地在創生裡面的結尾有一個福祉原鄉綠色產業的發展裡面的結尾"},{"start":700.343,"end":706.749,"text":"總金額有兩億,分組四檔來做,這四檔裡面有二十間,二十間裡面,定的一間補助一千萬我要問主委,你的綠色產業的標準是什麼?官鄉有夠有什麼綠色的產業?"},{"start":724.685,"end":743.319,"text":"請問福祉的對象是什麼?地方要怎麼去告白的關注人在這裡面每當有這麼多工作要做你們要怎麼選出需要做的人來你簡單回答一下就是說那個"},{"start":747.926,"end":754.149,"text":"經營這個排碳的部分,我們會找...主委,我講的,剛才講得很清楚,你現在聽到有我講的意思嘛因為我這陣子的時間夠了,拜託你給我一個書面給我,第二天的時候"},{"start":766.806,"end":775.649,"text":"這是應該向正義協助關注民要讓他們做好事不是因為個人而異要讓什麼人做就要讓什麼人做這樣就不好了這樣也不公平要讓認真、努力的關注民有這個機會參與以上是 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時33分）主席，我想請主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。"],["曾主任委員智勇：早安。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席在這裡要先跟你探討一下，我們最近修正通過「紀念日及節日實施條例」，雖然是充滿爭議，有人說這些日子要放假，有人說不用放假，不過畢竟已經通過了，歲時祭儀假從1天變成3天，在這個過程當中，我們有16族，各族舉辦的時間都不一樣，是各族所訂定的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["王委員美惠：像阿美族有阿美族舉辦的時間。主委，本席要在這裡跟你探討這個問題，在這16族裡面，對他們要休假的時間，你有去管理嗎？像規定阿美族要休1月到2月，布農族要休幾月到幾月嗎？你有評估過嗎？請主委回答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們16族的原住民什麼時候要過豐年祭還是什麼時候要過小米祭，都是有一定的時間，譬如說排灣族、魯凱族是在7月、8月小米豐收的時候，阿美族也是在這個時候。"],["王委員美惠：對，有固定嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有固定。"],["王委員美惠：在固定的情況下，要休假的時間有固定嗎？他可以3天分3次請假還是一次就請3天？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，放3天假主要可能是因為有的人現在都是在都市，要回到他自己的部落，可能時間上要3天才比較能夠全程來參與，就是這樣啦！"],["王委員美惠：比較有充裕的時間，要坐車回去、要做什麼準備，可能要有比較多的時間。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：主委，我跟你請教一下，我現在要問的就是，譬如說阿美族在6月、8月要請假，是要一次請3天，還是可以分開請？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，如果照通過的法律規定，應該是要一次請3天……"],["王委員美惠：不是應該喔！既然已經通過了，是一定可以休假喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，應該是3天一起請。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席跟你說，你不要說應該，因為既然通過了，你身為業務單位的首長，你就要說清楚，讓百姓知道我們原住民百姓的認真，讓老闆也知道他要怎麼請假、怎麼休假，不要造成要休假的原住民困擾，讓要僱用原住民的人知道他們就是差不多什麼時候要休假，如果不休假，這是他自己的權利沒錯，不過我們修這個規定是為了要保障他可以光明正大去休這3天假，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：這3天是要一次休完還是可以分開請？"],["曾主任委員智勇：一次休完。"],["王委員美惠：是一次休完？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：好。主委，本席跟你請教一下，這個休假3天的規定會在今年實施還是明年再開始？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在總統公布之後就直接……"],["王委員美惠：我知道啦！我怎麼會不知道總統公布以後就可以休假？我知道在公布以後就馬上可以休了啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對啊！今年就可以休了。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！你怎麼會跟這樣我說？你即使不知道也要請教、也要問別人，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，今年就可以休了。"],["王委員美惠：你知道在總統公布之後至少會有兩族休不到嗎？我跟你請教，這兩族休不到，可以補休嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們所謂的豐年祭還是這種祭儀、節慶都是固定在那一天舉辦，不能說那一天已經過了，你還要補休。"],["王委員美惠：不能補休嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["王委員美惠：好，主委，你說不能補休，譬如說我是阿美族，我的先生是布農族，既然我嫁人了，我就應該要跟著先生走，這樣我是要休阿美族還是要休布農族的時間？我可以休布農族的時間嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以，因為你嫁給布農族，當然可以休布農族的時間。"],["王委員美惠：就是不管是嫁還是娶，你就是選擇其中一個時間。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["王委員美惠：我說給你聽，如果祭儀已經過了而不能休，在公布之後，如果跟著先生或跟著太太，他也可以再請假啊！照你說的意思，他可以再請假。"],["曾主任委員智勇：依我們現在通過的這個條文，必須是本人，像我是阿美族……"],["王委員美惠：當然啦！像我就不能請假了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，要本人啦！"],["王委員美惠：對啊！我怎麼會不知道要本人？我現在就是問，配偶如果是同族，就沒有這個問題嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["王委員美惠：但是如果不是同一族，是不是可以跟太太或先生一起來請假？"],["曾主任委員智勇：譬如說我是阿美族……"],["王委員美惠：主委，我問你問到你想笑、我也想笑，因為這雖然是小事，不過我覺得在我們要修這個條文的時候，我們完全沒討論到細節，對於要怎麼休、要怎麼處理，我昨天問了一些企業界，他們聘請多少人固定要聘請1個原住民，我們認真努力的原住民，有人到現在都不知道。主委，我是好意跟你說你要仔細想清楚，並且把規定訂定好，未來我們的原住民要找工作也好，或是老闆要聘請原住民也好，他才會知道有這個問題存在，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們會再跟他們做說明。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得這有很大關係，剛才我跟你講有兩族，你們公布時祭儀已經過了，對他也不公平，不過不公平當中，如果有配偶的話，他可以從配偶申請，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：再來，主委，本席還要跟你探討一下平埔族的議題，大法官111年10月就說我們三年內要把平埔族歸納為原住民，我們有看到行政院認真要解決這個問題，到目前為止，你認為行政院拿出來的政策要再補充什麼嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在平埔原住民族群身分法已經送來大院，當然我們完全是依照憲法判決的意旨、內容，但是我們平埔的朋友認為最好是所有的權利一次到位。"],["王委員美惠：不是最好，而是應該要，他們強烈認為他們應該屬於原住民，你還立這個法在這裡，這等於我不是道道地地的原住民。"],["曾主任委員智勇：但是我們憲法的判決意旨是這樣，我們要先認定民族別，再來認定他的身分，有很多的權利，還有他過去受到的這些迫害，跟現在的山地原住民和平地原住民是不一樣的，真的不一樣，所以一定要再用另外的專法來保障、扶植平埔原住民。"],["王委員美惠：主委，現在我跟你說這個問題，你要好好去處理，因為該認祖歸宗就要讓人家認祖歸宗。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：不是只有一個名聲而已，說他也是原住民，隨便給他一個名號，這樣也不夠尊重，所以我們要好好跟行政院、跟院會的委員溝通，看看怎麼樣可以再做得更好，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：主委，接下來本席要跟你探討的是，你們有點亮計畫，111年到114年共4年，希望透過融資方式扶植部落的旅遊也好，溫泉也好，或是生活、公益產業，在這個預算中，113年編列三億四千多萬給你們執行，不過你們第三期才執行39%，但是因為你們這段時間的認真及努力，今天所送來的報告，以及前幾天本席辦公室跟你們索取的資料，看到已經執行87%，將近88%。不過主委，我要跟你們說，你們不要有催促才做，沒有催促就慢慢做，你看第三期到現在的時間短短的，是因為什麼關係才會差這麼多，等於是一倍的執行力？所以本席要跟你說，要好好去做，該認真的時候要認真，不要慢慢做、有催促才做。再來，行政院提出的打造永續共好地方創生計畫裡面有一個扶植原鄉綠色產業發展計畫，總金額是2億，分成4年執行，這4年共有20件，等於1件補助1,000萬，請問主委，綠色產業的標準是什麼？原鄉又有什麼綠色產業？請問扶植的對象是誰？地方要怎麼去選出個別的原住民？這這個過程中，每年有這麼多工作要做，你們要怎麼選出需要做的人？你簡單回答一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：關於淨零排碳的部分，我們會找……"],["王委員美惠：主委，我剛才說得很清楚，你應該聽得懂我說的意思，因為我的質詢時間到了，拜託你給我一個書面資料。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：第二點，行政院協助原住民應該是為了讓他們再做得更好，不是以個人的意思，要讓誰做就讓誰做，這樣就不好了，也不公平，我們要讓認真努力的原住民有這個機會參與，以上。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳琪銘","陳瑩","丁學忠","林宜瑾"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法\n人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案；三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12\n案：(一)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條\n文草案」案、(二)審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員\n黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原\n住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本\n法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n一)審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f9ea41470644a4c942018167f9c4d828f8b229dfd5e6d71d2010cd3a5187eac2bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:19:41 - 09:32:57","影片長度":"00:13:16","會議時間":"2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會及所屬預算解凍案。三、審查「原住民族基本法」修正草案等12案：(一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案合併詢答；第三案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-22","start_time":"2025-05-22T09:19:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-22T09:32:57+08:00","duration":796,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.17346875,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.906593750000003,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.17096875,"end":24.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.668468750000002,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.016593750000006,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":69.38721875,"end":95.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.26909375000001,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.43659375,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.47346875000001,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.99221875,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.79159375,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.98846875,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.32159375,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.62534375,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.64221875,"end":138.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.91221875000002,"end":139.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.30034375,"end":139.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":139.94159375,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.09346875,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.16784375,"end":151.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.75409375,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.08284375000002,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":156.85034375,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.31846875000002,"end":158.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.12846875,"end":159.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.46596875,"end":164.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.30471875,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.25034375,"end":230.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.64471875,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.35346875000002,"end":236.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.86784375000002,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.77471875,"end":240.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.07346875000002,"end":247.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.78159375,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.16534375,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.30409375000002,"end":257.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.37909375000004,"end":261.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.67784375,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.63096875,"end":265.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.25096875,"end":271.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.05596875000003,"end":275.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.07284375,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.03846875,"end":282.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":284.00346875,"end":286.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.30659375,"end":292.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.25096875,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":296.96346875,"end":299.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":300.20346875,"end":323.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":324.30096875000004,"end":331.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":332.06346875,"end":332.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.09721875,"end":332.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":332.11409375,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":332.80596875000003,"end":392.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.69096875,"end":395.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.46284375000005,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.47971875,"end":396.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.86346875000004,"end":424.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.48784375,"end":428.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":428.14971875000003,"end":431.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.44034375,"end":432.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":433.11096875000004,"end":440.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.36409375000005,"end":433.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.44846875,"end":433.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.48221875,"end":433.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.47346875000005,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":440.67096875000004,"end":440.68784375}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明年也是115年度的預算有沒有把這個進法補償的預算給編足那因為你們自己有設算在從今年開始起 所有每年需要的金分是52.15億有沒有這樣 有沒有編足這樣的預算 請回答"},{"start":113.252,"end":128.263,"text":"好 謝謝委員 那有關這個進化補償這個這個補償的經費我們已經在今年的3月10號我們就已經申請 我們跟那個那個我們的那個行政院來"},{"start":129.384,"end":144.836,"text":"申請希望能夠來追加然後我們每一年都是在9月發放我們希望今年一樣如期是在9月會全數發放嗎對 9月好 就是發到每公頃6萬塊對 每公頃6萬好 謝謝好 那115年度會不會也編組還是會編組到6萬塊嗎"},{"start":150.236,"end":164.389,"text":"我們有編組有編組有編組110就是下個年度的確定嗎希望是一樣的就是就是52.15億預估的對好好謝謝那第二個當然謝謝主委的回應我相信這樣子的話"},{"start":165.45,"end":188.564,"text":"是會給所有的有這樣子需要的原住民一個很完整的補償那第二個我們今天討論的是有關於預算解凍的案子可是在預算解凍的時候我們當然也希望原委會可以有一個完整清楚的解釋那我們看到說第一個很多委員之前有提過的就是說有關於一般行政費下面的有關於水電費的部分"},{"start":189.284,"end":214.274,"text":"他原本只有編列在113年只有編列85萬然後在114年的時候編列了350多萬所以增幅高達好幾倍那我們看到了這個原委會提供的說明是說其實過去有在109年到113年的時候其實每年的平均的水電費就是300多萬那我們想請問說為什麼過去每年的水電費都是300多萬"},{"start":215.334,"end":230.273,"text":"可是在從110過去109年到113年的時候每年編列的預算只有八十幾萬因為我們都知道水電費是時資時付的那這些不夠的錢到底是從過去到底是從哪邊所指引的這可以來做一些回答"},{"start":233.395,"end":260.994,"text":"主要就是因為我們往年的話都是預算水電費都編不足那考量到近三年的這個電費調漲已經超過30%了所以在114年的時候行政院就有增編預算給我們那是不是可以請您回應一下說為什麼過去水電費都編不足那你是從哪一個經費去我們是從一般的行政的業務費去先留用到"},{"start":261.694,"end":286.264,"text":"那一般行政會不會壓縮到一般行政的業務不會兩百多萬不會影響到一般的業務那原本那些一般的業務原本都在做什麼使用哪一些業務的費用拿來去轉播到水電費可以回答嗎比如說像那個員工的一些福利的費用那員工的福利如何做保障"},{"start":288.342,"end":299.03,"text":"他就是從一般的比如說比如說什麼清潔維護啊或是保全警衛啊這些等等的業務費去做調餘所以這邊我要跟好有請主委"},{"start":300.273,"end":323.054,"text":"所以你有看到聽到剛剛你們同仁的回應嗎所以我們希望的是說原民會你們的這個所有的預算應該要編列要符合就是說真正的時之時付所以大家最針對原委會的預算才不會說這麼多的質疑就是說我們希望說不要拿這個大家同仁的福利來去做隨便的流用其實這樣會造成大家的這個"},{"start":324.415,"end":332.222,"text":"福利會有一些的影響希望說未來相關的預算編列可以依照十知十負的整體的概念來好好編預算可以嗎是"},{"start":332.844,"end":361.723,"text":"好OK好那第二個我們來請教一下就是說其實我們今天預算解凍案我相信在野立委我們都展現一個誠意想要讓預算所有都解凍讓大家有完整的預算來使用可是我們看到又看到另外一個其實在你們的這個預算的解編的這個專案報告書裡面寫的非常的不明確裡面有一個在第21頁裡面有一個就是說關於辦理原住民逐日及節慶活動所需經費是500萬元"},{"start":363.344,"end":392.376,"text":"其實到113年的178萬元其實增加了321萬元所以這增加的幅率也是好幾倍可是在你們的報告書裡面其實沒有明確寫說為何要增加這樣子的一個經費的內容只是一個很普遍性講的是說又是因為要委託民間專業團隊來去協助辦理所以是不是請主委這邊我們想要協助擁有會可是你們可不可以明確的指示說為什麼預算要增加兩到三倍"},{"start":393.717,"end":420.738,"text":"好 那這個是處長來說明好 請處長說明根據內容報告這個部分我們當時在提供給大院的這個一四年度預算科目細部計畫說明表裡面已經有說明就是說這個這筆經費主要是要包含辦理原住民族政策高峰會一場次國家希望工程成果發表一場次然後製作與推播原住民族致敬影片一支頒發原住民族獎章還有辦理重大原住民族政策專題演講三場次"},{"start":422.419,"end":442.074,"text":"這個在當初提供給大院的這個細部計畫說明表已經有已經有名列這些工作項目我請問一下你有寫在今天的這個報告裡面嗎沒有那是不是會後可以把這個資料再給我所以你的意思是說你有增加這個舉辦這個表演的場次大概舉多幾場"},{"start":443.691,"end":457.336,"text":"我們當然有多了這個總共多了四場多了四場是好那會後再把資料提供提供給我們好不好謝謝好那現在請主委"},{"start":460.074,"end":485.493,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我們也要請教就是說關於你們第113頁裡面特別有強調的是本席很在意的就是原住民的朋友他的第一個原住民的社會住宅不足以及之前在質詢的時候好像提到說我們原住民的朋友要排社宅的時候常常都排隊都排很久拿到號碼牌都拿到很後面所以當時本席在質詢的時候有特別拜託說你們是不是可以來"},{"start":486.374,"end":501.847,"text":"查詢喔就是說我們這些原住民的朋友到底有多少人還在排社宅有多少人其實現在過去是排社宅一直沒有住不到的人數你們有沒有統計那我在第一百億失業裡面也有看到說你們終於有來做委託這個"},{"start":503.348,"end":529.246,"text":"有委託要來處理這件事情 我來念一下這個內容他說那個園民會於114年委託辦理原住民族的住宅輔導有委託專業服務勞務採購案來調查以及推估原住民民族家族居住協助需求的類型以及戶數那我現在想要請教主委因為已經有在辦理了 現在辦理的情形的狀況如何是不是可以 可不可以讓大家知道一下"},{"start":530.865,"end":555.159,"text":"好 來 蘇總委報告委員 我們現在目前每四年原住民經濟狀況調查是每四年調查一次那我們今年開始我們居住調查研究我們分兩部分來做進行第一部分我們已經先盤點有設宅需求的行政區只要超過1500人以上表示有設宅需求目前是25區那25區以後我們認為說接下來我們會跟內政部協調"},{"start":559.221,"end":576.709,"text":"去比對他目前正在興辦社宅的有幾處然後再去評估說然後再去比對完之後才知道說我們後面可以協商哪些地區是優先協調能夠協助原住民入住社宅的目前做法是這樣子所以第一個你會建立原住民社宅嗎"},{"start":578.049,"end":597.697,"text":"也會有計畫建築設宅我們目前根據原住民人口比較多的行政區超過1500人以上行政區總共25個行政區那25個行政區呢那我們在比對在內政部在當地有沒有新辦設宅的新辦計畫那這一部分有確定完比對完之後呢"},{"start":599.817,"end":623.003,"text":"這部分就是我們要優先協調地方政府努力提高原住民入住社宅的保障只是比對各縣市原住民人數較多而且他們有社宅需求的縣市比對出來這些縣市以後再跟縣市政府來討論說是不是可以讓這些人有什麼樣的機制可以入住社宅是嗎那這樣的報告大概什麼時候會出來"},{"start":627.258,"end":645.124,"text":"這個報告應該再給我們一個月的時間一個月可以出來那希望說這個報告出來以後可以提供給我們所有內政委員會的委員來去做參考那最後一個問題時間的關係那剛剛特別有提到說這個語言是文化傳承跟發展的根本尤其原住民的語言的復興跟推廣"},{"start":646.224,"end":660.683,"text":"不僅影響到原住民族的教育體系的建構也影響文化的保存跟發揚那剛剛特別在裡面有提到說這個族裔幼兒園現在只有79班所以受益人數現在是有限的"},{"start":661.224,"end":685.17,"text":"那我想要請教一下說現在國小教育部將國小階段的這個足與失之的認證門檻從高級調到中高級那我們就園委會的立場如何確保失之的培育以及這個進修的機制可以同步補強以免避免這些教育的落差各位報告齁那個這個足與教失我們希望是"},{"start":686.363,"end":714.242,"text":"他能夠他的這個足以認證必須是要中高級中高級我們現在在能力這個在測驗上我們要把它分成有聽說還有讀寫還有這四個都要會的你只要會先這個聽說你就可以來通過這個中高級的足以認證你就可以取得這個足以老師的這個資格我們希望更多的足以老師來"},{"start":715.783,"end":730.442,"text":"加入這個我們這個足語的這個讓我們的小朋友更多人來寫我們的足語所以主委的意思是說過去從高級就是要通過高級的門檻把他變成中高級所以為了老師人數會變更多"},{"start":733.786,"end":754.637,"text":"然後未來可以收到這些那個主義與教育的人數你們也考慮要增加對你們有這樣的計畫是嗎是OK好那還有一個問題剛才看到也是很重要的問題就是有關於這個我們有關於援助民族青年就業跟基進的問題我們有一個百萬的創業計畫就是說如果你符合特定條件的話"},{"start":755.397,"end":757.598,"text":"你就可以得到100萬的創業基金我們過去10年我們輔導了200家的企業這邊我們提到一個很優質的數據說企業的存活率是86.5%"},{"start":770.305,"end":792.945,"text":"那所以我們對這個很好奇喔因為我們覺得這個做得很好是不是可以請主委在會後的時候提供說這些的企業是分別是在哪些的縣市那它是在哪些的產業然後我們來確認說是不是各族群在這個各個縣市裡面我們的原住民都可以認真都可以得到一些創業的補助而且他們都開支善業可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":570,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時19分）謝謝主席。各位官員、各位委員，大家早。有請我們原委會曾智勇主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。主委，今天是有關原委會的預算解凍案，首先要跟主委報告，去年6月24號公布禁伐補償條例第六條的修正草案，這也是大家所關心的，114年禁伐補償的金額要從每公頃3萬塊提高到6萬塊，所以在去年底的時候，很多不管是原住民委員還是在野黨，對於過去從3萬塊提高到4萬塊以後還要提高到6萬塊，在在野黨立委全力的努力之下，行政院終於妥協，也在今年3月10日決定將這些禁伐補償的金額從3萬塊提高到6萬塊，所以增加了23億9,964萬的經費呈報到行政院辦理追加預算。請問兩個問題，第一個，現在整個進行的進度如何？第二個要請教主委的是，因為我也不想過去發生的情況再次發生，現在是5月下旬，原委會是不是應該已經差不多編好明（115）年度的預算？有沒有把禁伐補償的預算編足？因為你們自己有設算，從今年起，每年所需的經費是52.15億，有沒有編足這樣的預算？請回答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員，有關禁伐補償的經費我們在今年3月10日就已經向行政院申請追加，我們每一年都是在9月發放，希望今年一樣能如期在9月……"],["張委員智倫：9月會全數發放嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，9月。"],["張委員智倫：好，就是發到每公頃6萬塊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，每公頃6萬。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。那115年度會不會也編足到6萬塊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們有編足。"],["張委員智倫：有編足？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是下個年度的。"],["張委員智倫：確定嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：希望一樣是……"],["張委員智倫：就是預估的52.15億？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝，這當然要謝謝主委的回應，我相信這樣可以給所有有這個需要的原住民一個很完整的補償。第二個，我們今天討論的是關於預算解凍的案子，可是在預算解凍的時候我們當然也希望原委會可以有一個完整、清楚的解釋。我們看到第一個，很多委員之前有提過，就是在一般行政費項下有關水電費的部分，它原本在113年只有編列85萬，到114年的時候編列了三百五十多萬，所以增幅高達好幾倍，我看到原委會提供的說明是，其實過去在109年到113年的時候，每年平均的水電費就是三百多萬，我們想請問為什麼過去每年的水電費都是三百多萬，但是109年到113年的時候每年編列的預算卻只有八十幾萬。我們都知道水電費是實支實付的，這些不夠的錢過去到底是從哪邊支應的呢？這可不可以做一些回答？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是可以請我們的秘書室主任來回答？"],["張委員智倫：可以，請說。"],["陳主任玫霖：跟委員報告，主要是我們往年水電費的預算都編列不足，考量到近3年電費的調漲已經超過30%了……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯。"],["陳主任玫霖：所以114年的時候行政院就有增編預算給我們。"],["張委員智倫：是不是可以請您回應一下，為什麼過去水電費都編列不足？你是從哪一個經費去流用到……"],["陳主任玫霖：我們是從一般行政的業務費去流用的。"],["張委員智倫：這樣會不會壓縮到一般行政的業務？"],["陳主任玫霖：不會。"],["張委員智倫：二百多萬不會影響到一般的業務？那些一般的業務費原本都在做什麼使用？你是拿哪一些業務的費用轉去支付水電費的？可以回答嗎？"],["陳主任玫霖：譬如員工福利的費用。"],["張委員智倫：那員工的福利要如何保障？"],["陳主任玫霖：就是從一般的清潔維護或是保全、警衛等等這些業務費去調勻。"],["張委員智倫：好，有請主委。主委，你剛剛有聽到你們同仁的回應嗎？我們是希望原民會所有的預算編列應該要符合真正的實支實付，大家針對原委會的預算才不會有那麼多的質疑，我們希望不要拿同仁們的福利去隨便流用，這樣對大家的福利會造成一些影響，希望未來相關的預算編列可以依照實支實付整體的概念去好好編列，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員智倫：OK。第二個，我們要請教一下，有關我們今天的預算解凍案相信在野的立委都展現了誠意，想要讓所有的預算都能解凍，讓大家有完整的預算可以使用。可是我們又看到了另外一個，在你們預算解凍的專案報告書裡面寫得非常不明確，在第20頁裡面有一個關於辦理原住民族日及節慶活動所需經費是500萬元，其實比113年的178萬元，增加了321萬元，這裡增加的幅度也是好幾倍，但是在你們的報告書裡面並沒有明確地寫為何要增加這樣的經費內容，只是很普遍性地講說，因為要委託民間專業團隊去協助辦理，所以是不是可以請主委這邊說明？我們想要協助原委會，可是你們可不可以明確的說明為什麼預算要增加兩到三倍？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，這個是不是可以請處長來說明一下？"],["張委員智倫：好，請處長說明。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：跟委員報告，這個部分我們當時在提供給大院的114年度預算科目細部計畫說明表裡面已經有說明，這筆經費主要是包含辦理原住民族政策高峰會1場次、國家希望工程成果發表1場次、製作與推播原住民族致敬影片1支、頒發原住民族獎章還有辦理重大原住民族政策專題演講3場次，這個在當初提供給大院的細部計畫說明表裡已經有明列這些工作項目了。"],["張委員智倫：我請教一下，你有寫到今天的報告裡面嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：沒有。"],["張委員智倫：會後是不是可以再把這個資料給我？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：好。"],["張委員智倫：你的意思是不是說，你有增加舉辦表演的場次？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：是。"],["張委員智倫：大概是多了幾場？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：我們總共是多了4場。"],["張委員智倫：多了4場？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：是。"],["張委員智倫：會後再把資料提供給我們，好不好？謝謝，接下來請主委。","謝謝主委，我們也要請教，在你們的第113頁裡面特別有強調，本席也很在意的，第一個就是原住民朋友的社會住宅不足，以及之前在質詢的時候，有常常提到，原住民朋友在排社宅的時候，排隊常常要排很久，拿到的號碼牌都是拿到很後面的，所以當時本席在質詢的時候有特別拜託你們，是不是可以查詢這些原住民朋友到底有多少人還在排社宅、過去排社宅卻一直住不到的人數有多少？你們有沒有統計？我在第114頁裡面也有看到你們終於要委託人來處理這件事情了，我來唸一下這個內容，上面說原民會於114年委託辦理原住民族的住宅輔導，有委託專業服務勞務採購案調查以及推估原住民族家族居住協助需求的類型及戶數。我現在要請教主委，因為已經有在辦理了，那現在辦理的情形、狀況是如何？是不是可以讓大家知道一下？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我請處長來。"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，我們目前基本上是每4年做一次原住民經濟狀況調查，今年開始的居住調查研究會分兩部分進行。第一部分會先盤點有社宅需求的行政區，只要超過1,500人以上就表示有社宅需求，而這部分目前是25區。對於這25區，我們接下來會跟內政部協調，去比對目前正在興辦社宅的有幾處，比對完之後才知道我們後面可以協商出有哪些地區要優先協調，以協助原住民入住社宅，目前的做法是這個樣子。"],["張委員智倫：所以第一個，你會建立原住民社宅嗎？你們會有計畫建原住民社宅嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：不是，我們目前是根據原住民人口比較多的行政區，超過1,500人的行政區總共有25個，對這25個行政區，我們會再比對內政部在當地有沒有興辦社宅的計畫，這部分確定完、比對完之後，我們要優先協調地方政府，努力提高原住民入住社宅保障的一個標的。"],["張委員智倫：所以只是比對各縣市原住民人數較多，而且他們有社宅需求的縣市，比對出這些縣市以後，再跟縣市政府討論是不是可以讓這些人用什麼機制可以入住社宅，是嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：對。"],["張委員智倫：那這樣的報告大概什麼時候會出來？"],["劉處長維哲：再給我們1個月的時間，我們應該就可以提出來。"],["張委員智倫：1個月可以提出來嘛？"],["劉處長維哲：對。"],["張委員智倫：希望這個報告做出來以後可以提供給我們所有內政委員會的委員做參考。"],["劉處長維哲：沒問題。"],["張委員智倫：因為時間的關係，我要問最後一個問題，剛剛有特別提到，語言是文化傳承跟發展的根本，尤其原住民語言的復興跟推廣不僅影響到原住民族教育體系的建構，也影響文化的保存跟發揚。剛剛有特別提到族語幼兒園現在只有79班，所以受益人數其實是有限的，那我想要請教一下，現在教育部將國小階段族語師資的認證門檻從高級調到中高級，就原委會的立場，要如何確保師資的培育以及進修的機制可以同步補強，以避免這方面教學的落差？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，關於族語教師，我們希望他必須要通過中高級的族語認證。"],["張委員智倫：過去是高級對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。我們現在對族語的能力測驗分成聽、說還有讀、寫這四個部分，你只要會聽、說，你就可以通過中高級的族語認證，就可以取得族語老師的資格，我們希望有更多的族語老師來加入，讓更多小朋友來學習我們的族語。"],["張委員智倫：所以主委的意思是說，過去要通過高級的門檻，現在把它變成中高級，所以未來老師的人數會更多，然後可以受到族語教育的人數你們也考慮要增加？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員智倫：你們有這樣的計畫，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員智倫：好，那我還有一個問題，這也是很重要的問題，就是關於原住民族青年就業跟基金的問題，你們有一個「百萬創業計畫」，就是如果符合特定條件的話，就可以得到100萬的創業基金，我跟主委報告，在過去10年我們輔導了200家企業，這邊有一個很好、很優質的數據，就是企業的存活率是86.5%，我們對這個很好奇，因為我們覺得這個做得很好，是不是可以請主委在會後提供這些企業分別是在哪些縣市、是哪些產業的資料，然後我們來確認是不是在各個縣市裡面我們各族群的原住民都可以努力、認真而得到一些創業的補助，而且讓他們開枝散葉，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們馬上來提供。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。","下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-21","speakers":["牛煦庭","盧縣一","張智倫","王美惠","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案【第三案僅詢答，另定\n期處理】","agenda_id":"1145302_00001"}}},{"id":"161802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f928d89ce0c9debd17c1afe2edc2e0cc67b229dfd5e6d71d20b803803d6f493de85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:56:07 - 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謝昭偉 請郭部長跟高副主委好 請部長跟副主委好 先請教一下部長這個這陣子包括AI的投資包括黃雲勛 包括輝達跟AMD在台灣投資大家都相當關心那輝達也宣布他的總部設在台北這邊那因為高雄也有亞灣2.0 亞灣"},{"start":36.747,"end":60.4,"text":"智慧科技創新園區的170億的一個投資我想問一下部長在輝達跟AMD在高雄的投資這個部分有沒有想要更具體的一些進度報告委員我想輝達在高雄的投資我們可以看到他在最重要的智慧城市"},{"start":63.696,"end":78.292,"text":"這個數位暖身用在這個智慧城市已經是非常成功的所以之前他的演講上面也特別介紹這一段那我們相信這樣的一個合作"},{"start":79.434,"end":101.06,"text":"那麼在未來這個智慧城市會copy到全世界一些發展數位化的這個國家這是一個非常好的一個例子那我們當然也非常的我想高雄非常的這個榮幸能夠跟這個世界最強大的這個數位公司能夠做這樣的一個合作"},{"start":102,"end":124.278,"text":"那第二個這個AMD在高雄來講的話可以看得出來它在這個西光澤上面事實上這個有非常大的一個投資跟這個發展我想這個代表全世界最關注AI的兩大公司都有在高雄做一些深入的這些發展"},{"start":124.881,"end":150.998,"text":"我部長勸一下AMD的這個研發中心跟辦公室的部分這個持續在推動當中嘛這個在進度當中那回答除了AI的算力中心超級算力中心以外另外像主權AI燈卡的計畫跟甚至於研發中心這個有朝這個方向在推動嗎現在這個NVIDIA在它的這個超級電腦這個台北ONE是在雅灣對 這個確定的這個是確定的"},{"start":153.496,"end":174.899,"text":"那它當然會繼續發展我相信這個高雄的亞灣在整個世界上面會漸漸的展露出來我們在高雄在數位的研究跟人才的匯聚有一個非常重要的一些成績出來"},{"start":175.239,"end":201.18,"text":"我們希望部長持續來協助坦白講這一次的總部沒有設在高雄高雄沒有入選其實我們是有一點失望的但是也希望將來的部分持續推因為亞灣2.0包括智慧科技參選區的投入在這個地方那還是需要更多的力道那當然台北跟高雄台北是佔有一些優勢那我們還是希望在部裡面在整個中央裡面還是能夠全力來協助"},{"start":202.26,"end":227.165,"text":"這些包含輝達 AMP包含幾個重要的這些AI的巨擘能夠順利的能夠在高雄持續的來推展好 那請部長再持續大力來協助我們現在看到這個輝達在選擇台北當然因為他過去在台北的這個研發大樓本來就在台北就已經有只是他是那個租賃的大樓那他現在這個自己來購買土地來興建"},{"start":229.656,"end":244.925,"text":"符合他未來發展的這樣的一個道路我想這個是當然基於這個現實的考量他已經有好幾千人在台北上千人在台北這些人要移動到高雄其實他有些困難但是我們發現在未來最重要的"},{"start":245.882,"end":260.853,"text":"他的應用其實是在高雄的這一點我想委員你可以放心所以我也希望部長再大力的來寫書特別是智慧這一塊有很多在跟一些基礎產業甚至新興的一些產業的合作上面高雄具有相當多的一些優勢"},{"start":261.633,"end":275.495,"text":"我們現在經濟部我們這個技術師也是重兵在高雄我們的這個基礎中心在高雄我們是大力的在推動AI的應用"},{"start":276.977,"end":293.3,"text":"所以他們這個技術中心在高雄是這個著墨的非常的深啊所以這是不是固定每三個月還是給我一份你們最新的一些狀況讓我知道了好不好就是你們推動的一些狀況讓我知道一下好不好就是整個對於整個產業的一些推動是的這個我們可以"},{"start":294.261,"end":314.491,"text":"那另外是機器人其實也是現在黃雲信也提到了未來的一個經濟的一個核心那我還是希望這一塊但是我們現在看到這個包括國科會經濟部門國發基金的機器人的500億的這個計畫看起來多數其實我們希望未來跟高雄台南之間有更多的一些連結"},{"start":315.792,"end":336.938,"text":"台南看起來有在但是因為高雄台南之間距離相當近我們現在想做更多的連結這個硬體的部分可能是在台南但是軟體的部分這個深層式AI的所有的訓練可能是在高雄所以我們希望這個連結上再更加的強化這個連結是非常重要的請部長跟主委那邊"},{"start":337.958,"end":349.736,"text":"那再來我想請教一下啦其實大家今天看到主權基金的部分我是不是也問一下先問一下高副主委好不好主權基金的部分總統提出來他的裁員的部分從哪裡來這個確定了嗎還在討論當中有可能哪些方向"},{"start":354.342,"end":377.393,"text":"如果根據國際的話他有可能會來自外匯存底也有可能在財政盈餘然後有些國家如果有特殊的生產資源就有原油啊等等的收入都有可能所以這幾個都有可能來跟各部位階級討論最後一個大概不太因為我們沒有產時我們有特殊的自然資源的收益啊所以可能就是財政盈餘或者是"},{"start":378.313,"end":403.407,"text":"因為全世界各國採用的方式都不太一樣但是不拖你剛剛講的這幾個方法那當然內部會去做討論因為總統有宣誓我想內部會做討論那不排除各種可能性所以也不是哪一位部會首長或哪一位或者是總裁說了就算了其實在恐怕還是要整體國家來整體思考那另外請教一下它的額度未來會是拉到什麼樣的規模有初步的想法嗎這個額度也是在討論也是在討論中"},{"start":404.858,"end":429.134,"text":"好 那另外將來會制定一個條例吧 會有一個法令領取我們目前根據大家有比較有的共識就是會用專法專法來做專責管理機構的方式專法跟專責 那專責機構剛剛大家討論很多現在還沒有確定是哪個機構嘛對不對應該是說會有主管機關可是這個主管機到時候會成立一個主權基金的專責管理機構"},{"start":431.168,"end":457.588,"text":"對 但是這個法會由是由哪個部會來主那當然就是由主責機關來負責所以都有可能啦不管是國發會或者是經濟部都有可能嘛對 主責機關來制定專法跟組建專責機構好 那它未來跟組員基金跟國發基金應該會有一些不同的區隔嘛國發基金應該比較屬於是內兩個同時間都還是會存在嘛是的所以應該一個主要是對內一個是對外的部分啦"},{"start":458.719,"end":466.689,"text":"就是也很難說是對內或對外就是他會有他的定位啦這樣子所以不會是將來兩個基金做整併不會不會因為我覺得總統在他的他520的那個他已經說明這兩個應該是並行的"},{"start":475.799,"end":489.641,"text":"好 我們也期待未來組員基金能夠扮演讓台灣的整個國家的影響力跟我們的佈局甚至產業的升級甚至於整個跟世界各國友邦的好的互動能夠達到更好的一個效果好 謝謝部長 謝謝副主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時56分）謝謝召委，請郭部長跟高副主委。"],["主席：請部長跟副主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：先請教一下部長，這陣子關於AI的投資，包括黃仁勳，包括輝達跟AMD，他們在臺灣的投資大家都相當關心，輝達也宣布將其總部設在臺北這邊，因為高雄也有亞灣2.0、亞灣智慧科技創新園區170億的投資，我想問一下部長，關於輝達跟AMD在高雄的投資，這部分有沒有一些更具體的進度？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，輝達在高雄的投資，我們可以看到它在最重要的智慧城市，即數位孿生用在智慧城市已經是非常成功的，之前他的演講上面也特別介紹這一段，我們相信這樣一個合作，未來這個智慧城市會copy到全世界一些發展數位化的國家，這是一個非常好的例子，我想高雄也非常的榮幸，能夠跟世界最強大的數位公司做這樣一個合作。","第二個，AMD在高雄來講，可以看得出來，在矽光子上面，事實上有一個非常大的投資跟發展，這代表全世界最關注AI的兩大公司都有在高雄做一些深入的發展。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我跟部長確認一下，AMD的研發中心跟辦公室的部分，目前持續在推動當中，輝達除了AI超級算力中心以外，另外像主權AI燈塔計畫甚至於研發中心，請問有朝這個方向在推動嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在NVIDIA的超級電腦Taipei-1是在亞灣，這個是確定的，當然它會繼續發展，我相信高雄的亞灣在整個世界上會漸漸展露出來，我們高雄在數位研究跟人才的匯聚上會有一個非常重要的成績出來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望部長持續來協助，坦白講，這一次的總部沒有設在高雄，高雄沒有入選，其實我們是有一點失望，但是也希望將來的部分能夠持續推動，我想對於亞灣2.0包括智慧科技創新園區的投入，還是需要有更多的力道，當然臺北跟高雄相較，臺北還是占有一些優勢，所以我們還是希望部裡面，還有整個中央都能夠全力來協助，讓輝達、AMD，甚至幾個重要的AI巨擘，都能夠順利的在高雄持續推展，請部長再持續的大力協助。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在看到輝達選擇臺北，當然過去他在臺北本來就已經有研發大樓，但那只是租賃的大樓，他現在自己購買土地來興建符合他未來發展的大樓，我想這個當然是基於現實的考量，他已經有好幾千人在臺北，有上千人在臺北，這些人要移動到高雄其實有些困難，但是我們發現在未來最重要的，他的應用其實是在高雄，這一點我想委員可以放心。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以我希望部長再大力協助，特別是智慧這一塊，在跟一些基礎產業，甚至新興的一些產業的合作上面，高雄具有相當多的優勢。"],["郭部長智輝：對，現在我們經濟部技術司的重兵是在高雄，我們的金屬中心也在高雄，我們是大力地在推動AI的應用，所以他們金屬中心在高雄是著墨得非常深，這個部分也希望委員……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，是不是固定每三個月還是給我一份你們最新的一些狀況，就是你們對於整個產業推動的一些狀況讓我知道一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，這個我們可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，機器人的部分，其實現在黃仁勳也提到，是未來經濟的核心，我還是希望這一塊……但是我們現在看到，包括國科會、經濟部跟國發基金對於機器人500億的計畫，看起來多數其實……我們希望未來跟高雄、臺南之間有更多的一些連結，因為高雄、臺南之間的距離相當近，我們希望有更多的連結。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，硬體的部分可能是在臺南，但是軟體的部分，生成式AI所有的training可能是在高雄。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以我們希望這個連結上再更加強化。"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個連結是非常重要的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？請部長和主委……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我想請教一下，其實今天大家也都有談到主權基金的部分，我先問一下高副主委。主權基金的部分，總統提出來，它財源的部分從哪裡來，這個確定了嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：還在討論當中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：可能有哪些方向？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果根據國際的經驗，它可能會來自於外匯存底，也有可能在財政盈餘，然後有些國家如果有特殊的生產資源，就有原油等等的收入，都有可能。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這幾個都有可能跟各部會討論？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，最後一個大概不太可能，因為我們沒有產石油，我們沒有特殊的自然資源收益，所以可能就是財政盈餘或者是外匯存底。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，因為全世界各國採用的方式都不太一樣，但是不脫你剛剛講的這幾個方法。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然內部會去做討論，因為總統也宣示了，我想內部會做討論。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不排除各種可能性嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以也不是哪一位部會首長或者是央行總裁說了就算。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其實恐怕還是要以整體國家來整體思考。另外，請教一下，它的額度未來會是拉到什麼樣的規模，有初步的想法嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這個額度也是在討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也是在討論中？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。另外，將來會制定一個條例，會有一個法令依據嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：目前大家比較有共識的，就是會用專法，以專責管理機構的方式……"],["賴委員瑞隆：專法跟專責，專責機構剛剛大家討論很多，現在還沒有確定是哪個機構，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是說會有主管機關，到時候會成立一個主權基金的專責管理機構。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，但是這個法是由哪個部會來主責？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：當然是由主責機關來負責。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以都有可能，不管是國發會或者是經濟部，都有可能嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，由主責機關來制定專法跟組建專責機構。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，它未來跟主權基金、國發基金應該會有些不同的區隔嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：國發基金應該比較屬於對內，兩個同時間都還是會存在嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以應該一個主要是對內，一個是對外的部分。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：也很難說是對內或對外，就是它會有它的定位。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以不會是將來兩個基金做整併，而是會單獨成立……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不會，因為我覺得總統在520已經說明，這兩個應該是並行的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們也期待未來主權基金能夠扮演臺灣的整個國家影響力。我們的布局，甚至讓產業升級，讓跟世界各國友邦的良好互動，都能夠達到更好的效果。好，謝謝部長，謝謝副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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t":"我覺得過去沒有辦法設立就是基本上社會上沒有一致的沒有共識就是大家對於主權設計的目的資金的來源這些沒有共識這樣子那現在呢已經有共識了有立法了嗎因為其實就目前我們面臨的國內外的經濟情勢來說應該現在是主權基金可以成立的一個應該是一個"},{"start":77.27,"end":93.47,"text":"的時機啦因為我們對外其實我們知道我們面對美國的那個關稅的新政地緣政治風險的提高等等的然後其實國內也累積了我們有很好的我們有很好的財政的基礎我們也有豐厚的"},{"start":94.671,"end":112.914,"text":"這個外匯存底那我們某個程度上在這個時點我們覺得當然主權基金成立它有它的風險性那可是呢就我們這些主客觀條件來評估的時候我們覺得我們現在是可以做主權基金成立的演繹這件事情但是"},{"start":113.795,"end":131.567,"text":"央行即便他們現在不持反對的態度但是他們認為不應該無常的使用我們的外匯存訂那對於主權基金資金的相關來源我們現在目前行政院有什麼規劃"},{"start":133.048,"end":162.159,"text":"我們現在還在研議當中他是說無償那某個程度上有償可能也是形態之一就是其他的國家也有用有償的方式來運用該國的外匯存底國務部長在你旁邊一直點頭你是不是有同意要投資他們報告委員我想我們在這個發展AI的這個過程裡面大家都知道就是說這個最大的市場是在美國"},{"start":163.544,"end":185.412,"text":"那所以這個我們現在因為這個關稅的命題發生了以後我們大家也重新檢討一下我們發展的策略那麼AI我們在台灣我們在發展AI的邊緣應用那這個部分我們做很多但是在這個AI的所謂的發展跟AI的研究這個部分市場還是在美國"},{"start":186.312,"end":206.89,"text":"那如果说我们今天在发展这个策业可以从开始就能够关注就能够投资我想对后面的这个加码会有很大的帮助所以我们认为这个AI主权基金的这个设立在当下来讲是非常正确的一个选择是AI主权基金还是主权基金"},{"start":207.73,"end":227.375,"text":"過去因為我們現在主權基金其實是對台灣以外地區的投資台灣我們已經有現在的國發基金跟我們的台山這些基金都可以對台灣的這些創新的企業可以投資但是對他們是不能夠投資海外的"},{"start":228.075,"end":244.276,"text":"那因為我們現在發現市場大部分都在海外的幾個地區去發展所以對我們來講我們的企業有一些企業也會去join的到這個海外的這個市場所以我們會對他們來做一些投資我認為"},{"start":246.505,"end":274.795,"text":"現在來設立這個國家主權基金是一個非常合適的這個時機但是過去沒有辦法設立就是第一個民眾對於這個主權基金的設立在投資部分大家怕如果給予政府一個授權的時候如果賠了咧如果發生弊案你怎麼防弊"},{"start":275.795,"end":301.533,"text":"如果你就是大家也期待啊我們可以跟新加坡的主權基金一樣可以賺錢啊但是新加坡的主權基金也有賠錢的時候啊全球的市場是怎麼樣的賠錢的時候他的經理人就要下來啊是不是那你怎麼樣子給民眾一個監督的機會大家擔心啊"},{"start":302.642,"end":306.586,"text":"對不對 大家想說要賺錢 結果錢沒賺到 心療疾耶是啦 我想這都是專業的問題啦 環境跟專業 能夠賺錢跟不賺錢那這個我想我們台灣這些專業的投資者 他們應該是經驗非常豐富啦"},{"start":322.102,"end":348.645,"text":"所以我們在這個看以台灣現在的投資業者他們的專業的能力來講事實上他們都有很多人都參與世界的這個投資的機會我們會設立法定會有一些法令然後會來這個設定這個專法那麼有專責管理機構來明定它的各項包括設定的目的資金的來源完算治理跟監理的架構"},{"start":350.227,"end":358.974,"text":"會來確保主權基金營運公開透明並符合政策目標所以我再問那個副主委我再問一下副主委"},{"start":360.694,"end":377.334,"text":"副主委那未來到底主權基金的主管單位是誰對由行政院來決定你們還沒有確定是不是你們的討論裡面還沒有確定是不是央行已經認為不應該是他們所以是財政部還是你們國發會還是經濟部由行政院來決定"},{"start":380.958,"end":409.818,"text":"經濟部想要不要行政院主管然後他們來指定所以還沒確定是的那國發會會不會主動的爭取跨部會嗎你們要振興國內的產業嘛是不是我想行政院會就各部會的執掌跟工人他選定最合適的主管機關那我們基本上就是遵從行政院的決定"},{"start":410.538,"end":410.572,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":410.834,"end":435.526,"text":"那如果獲利了咧要怎麼樣子分配你說獲利是不是對主權基金所以很重要就是說我們必須要有一個法然後還要有一個專責獨立的專責機關我就是說確保之前我們大家認為主權基金有可能會產生的相關的一些弊病等等的就要在這個專法還有這個獨立的專責機關裡面這些機構所以是獨立的專責機關也許不在國發會"},{"start":440.689,"end":444.156,"text":"也不在財政部 是不是就是說他會有一個主管機關他會設立一個專責的管理的機構然後有一個專法"},{"start":453.394,"end":472.993,"text":"來做相關的規範所以也不確定獲利會不會撥入例如像勞退就是勞工的退休金或者是可以固定的就是把所有的獲利還稅於零我覺得這些都可以在專法裡面去做討論是嗎 是的那我最後還有一個問題請教郭部長現在"},{"start":476.038,"end":501.727,"text":"根據中央社的外電法國官員證實了德國的新內閣他們釋出的訊號他說歐盟不再反對將核能視同再生就是他們不再反對核能可以視同再生能源那所以在核能復興的趨勢以及投資能源產業的發展"},{"start":503.919,"end":530.751,"text":"我們政府部門是不是還要堅持非核家園因為他們已經把它視為再生能源了是 報告委員我想中央社應該只是片面的了解啦歐盟並沒有發表證明說它是正確的我說德國的德國的那個新內閣這德國的建議是這樣子他們已經認為就是核能是歐盟並沒有確認"},{"start":533.046,"end":555.922,"text":"那他們對於淨零碳排的這個就是影響我們等歐盟確認以後我們會納入我們的參考所以要等歐盟確認以後是不是大家只是提一個proposal不代表是已經確定的方式那如果歐盟確定核能是再生能源的情況下我們會納入我們的參考納入參考會不會再堅持不用核能我們會納入參考經過評估以後再做決定"},{"start":563.134,"end":563.155,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時39分）謝謝主席，我想請國發會的高副主委跟郭部長。"],["主席：請部長及高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：高副，人家說主權基金的設立是從馬政府、蔡政府到現在提出來，你歷經了這3個政府，對於主權基金的設立，你有什麼了解？為什麼過去沒有辦法設立呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得過去沒有辦法設立基本上就是社會上沒有一致的共識，就是大家對於主權基金設置的目的、資金的來源等等這些沒有共識。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那現在呢？已經有共識了嗎？有立法了嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其實就目前我們面臨的國內外經濟情勢來說，現在應該是主權基金可以成立的一個時機，因為對外我們要面對美國的關稅新政、地緣政治風險的提高等等，然後其實國內也累積了很好的財政基礎，也有豐厚的外匯存底，某個程度上在這個時點，當然主權基金的成立有它的風險性，可是我們就這些主客觀條件評估後，我們覺得現在可以做這件事情，就是主權基金成立的研議。"],["謝委員衣鳯：即便央行他們現在不持反對的態度，但是他們認為不應該無償的使用我們的外匯存底，對於主權基金資金的相關來源，目前行政院有什麼規劃？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們現在還在研議當中，它是說無償，某個程度上有償可能也是型態之一，就是其他的國家也有用有償的方式來運用該國的外匯存底。"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭部長在你旁邊一直點頭，你是不是有同意要投資他們？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們在發展AI的過程裡面，大家都知道最大的市場是在美國，現在因為關稅的命題發生了以後，我們大家也重新檢討一下我們發展的策略，在臺灣發展AI的邊緣應用上，這個部分我們做了很多，但是在AI的發展跟AI的研究上，這個部分的市場還是在美國，如果我們今天在發展這個策略上可以從一開始就能夠關注，就能夠投資，我想對後面的加碼會有很大的幫助，所以我們認為AI主權基金的設立在當下來講，是一個非常正確的選擇……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是AI主權基金還是主權基金？"],["郭部長智輝：就企業的發展來看，因為我們現在的主權基金其實是對臺灣以外地區的投資，臺灣的部分我們現在已經有國發基金跟我們臺商的這些基金，他們都可以對臺灣這些創新的企業進行投資，但是對於他們是不能夠投資海外的部分，因為我們現在發現市場大部分都是在海外的幾個地區去發展，對我們來講，我們有一些企業也會去join到海外的市場，所以我們會對他們來做一些投資，我認為現在來設立國家主權基金是一個非常合適的時機。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是過去沒有辦法設立：第一個，民眾對於主權基金的設立，在投資部分，大家怕的是，如果給予政府授權，到時如果賠了，你怎麼辦？如果發生了弊案，你怎麼防弊？大家也期待我們跟新加坡的主權基金一樣可以賺錢，但是新加坡的主權基金也有賠錢的時候，全球的市場是怎麼樣的情況呢？賠錢的時候，他的經理人就要下來，是不是？所以你怎麼樣給民眾一個監督的機會？大家會擔心啊！對不對？大家本來是想要賺錢，結果錢沒賺到卻先賠錢！"],["郭部長智輝：這都是專業的問題，環境跟專業可以決定這個可以賺錢或是不賺錢，我想我們臺灣這些專業的投資者，他們的經驗應該非常豐富，以臺灣現在的投資業者的專業能力來講，事實上他們有很多人都參與了世界投資的機會，所以我們會設立一些法令，包括設立專法、有專責管理機構，同時明定它的各項規範，包括設立的目的、資金的來源、完善治理跟監理的架構，以確保主權基金營運公開、透明並符合政策目標。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我再問一下副主委，未來主權基金的主管單位到底是誰？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：由行政院來決定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們的討論裡面還沒有確定，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：央行已經認為不應該是他們，所以是財政部還是國發會、還是經濟部？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：由行政院來決定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：經濟部想要嗎？不要？不要？"],["郭部長智輝：行政院主管，然後他們來指定。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對！對！"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以還沒確定？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：國發會會不會主動的爭取？這是跨部會的嗎？你們要振興國內的產業，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：行政院會就各部會的職掌跟功能，選定最合適的主管機關，我們基本上就是遵從行政院的決定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果主權基金獲利了，那要怎麼樣子分配？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：所以很重要的，我們必須要有一個法源，然後還要有一個獨立的專責機關，就是要確保之前大家認為主權基金有可能產生一些相關弊病等等，就要在這個專法還有這個獨立的專責機關裡面去予以確定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是一個獨立的專責機關，所以也許不在國發會，也不在財政部，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。就是說它會有一個主管機關，它會設立一個專責的管理機構，然後有一個專法來做相關的規範。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以也不確定獲利會不會撥入，像勞退、勞工的退休金，或者是可以固定的把所有獲利還稅於民？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：這都可以在專法裡面去做討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我最後還有一個問題請教郭部長，現在根據中央社的外電，法國官員證實了德國的新內閣釋出的訊號，他說歐盟不再反對核能可以視同再生能源，所以在核能復興的趨勢上，以及投資能源產業的發展上，我們政府部門是不是還要堅持非核家園？因為他們已經把它視為再生能源了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想中央社應該只是片面的了解，歐盟並沒有發表證明說它是正確的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說德國的新內閣。"],["郭部長智輝：德國的建議是這樣子。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們已經認為核能……"],["郭部長智輝：歐盟並沒有確認。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們對於淨零碳排的影響……"],["郭部長智輝：我們等歐盟確認以後，會來納入我們的參考。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以要等歐盟確認以後，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：當然，大家只是提一個proposal，不代表是已經確定的方式。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果歐盟確定核能是再生能源的情況下，你們行政院怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：會納入我們的參考。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會再堅持不用核能？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會納入參考，經過評估以後再做決定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員，我們就先休息5分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時56分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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是第二名沒有時間跟你說,你們的主席就是執政黨,等一下站著我頭又痛這第一點今天我們是叫做解凍凍結冰就是解凍但是保證,我現在有一個資料"},{"start":169.235,"end":195.605,"text":"在我們委員會裡面,三減預算經濟部本部才三減一百萬產化史、國貿史、中小企業史、智慧史、地礦中心三減預算是零商業發展史、水利史、標檢局、園區管理局、能源史三減預算是零"},{"start":197.096,"end":220.503,"text":"這裡面有凍結到經濟部本部三十二億兩千一百二十萬凍結到產花市三千一百萬凍結到智慧財產權兩千五百萬商業發展市兩百萬水利市五百萬標準捷內級凍結一百萬能源級凍結一百萬你補充來你看"},{"start":227.539,"end":254.053,"text":"說執政黨的委員對你好那無庸置疑他一定要支持你我們在野黨的委員這種預算哪裏是簡略啊你懂得立法院的形態只是最了解他們都很兇他說要改為動靜以前在宰預算的時候要講預算的時候來我今天要問你動靜跟選舉有什麼不同"},{"start":259.34,"end":267.188,"text":"刪減就是直接把這個費用刪掉啊 凍結是大家比我對這個問題還不瞭解我先把你凍結下來我們再來討論你再來報告我再教你一點事面報告就是要這樣過的怎樣報告你比較困難"},{"start":279.922,"end":291.151,"text":"你們現在這個都是說假話你也有行政所長在大罷免案裡面喊話聽聽聽真的是一片煩人不然我怎麼這樣說我們看到很無奈"},{"start":294.642,"end":319.23,"text":"你這個預算是刪減包括凍結最少你這樣說得像是我們在野黨在求你們的執政黨你們的執政黨不要求在野黨就好但這事情要實在 要有良心現在大拜沒辦法如火如荼現在如果講到刪減預算的話就是抗中保台害台沒那麼嚴重"},{"start":320.509,"end":335.443,"text":"大家都很善良為台灣這一塊土地你們是無謀不齊了胡言亂語等於如果你們這個行政使館在上台講話的話你們就是屬於詐騙集團這次了情窮抽搐"},{"start":336.644,"end":352.1,"text":"我是沒有被罷免成功歐元兄弟苗栗鄉親支持我我是來支持我們那些被罷免的30幾位立法委員國會議員遮緊你娘你的總統也遮緊你娘後來你就要罷免台語算不台"},{"start":354.844,"end":365.63,"text":"這哪裡是民主的國家 講了實在令人屈忿還好你話講得少 我今天讓你過關你真的讓我台上多少次跟你賭 表示你還有良心啊再來 我要跟你抱怨 這次強化經濟地方運送"},{"start":376.314,"end":396.267,"text":"其實你不怎麼禁止,這是關稅,這是生意要發展,要保持台灣的產業機能。你知道你再拖多少,放到國安會,你支持產業安定就業930億,你政治部才拿了750億,"},{"start":399.605,"end":422.019,"text":"六大面向還有農業三大面向一百八十一本來是要糾正一些不要讓經濟人家恐慌起來結果國土安全日益性一千五百億這個問題也敏感反對叫做什麼抗中保台賣台灣他們為什麼想啊我在這裏把這個問題提出來強調昨天討論這個問題其實預算大家可以討論用在哪裡"},{"start":430.282,"end":458.117,"text":"但是我看到執政黨的委員極力的在批評我們在那裡面怎麼要限制性的招標,難怪他們壞你講人家壞事,我也懷疑你的壞事,那是大家把你破壞感情底下不要這樣,每一個人可以彈開信箱來講話一講到美國不好,講到日本不好,就是賣台誰敢讓民主政治那樣在走我是在講出來"},{"start":459.881,"end":481.337,"text":"還有我們國家的經濟政策,我希望在你手裡,你有那種企業的眼光,你帶著南向政策給你發,現在還要組織投資美國國家隊,我們總統出來說我們要組織AI國家的資金基金,我們的行政院長又提出AI的十大,"},{"start":482.885,"end":502.211,"text":"對於它的十大基礎建設 哈利福哥這樣不知道要靠哪一邊但是部長 AI台灣跟MVRI合作起來還好有這個AI台灣的電子產業一片欣欣向榮真的天保佑台灣不然你現在要做什麼 平板電腦什麼電腦 它已經放棄在地"},{"start":508.74,"end":518.488,"text":"所以這是台灣人的怕病你把財經的喪志氣都不談這些你有永遠記得嗎你說我們AI"},{"start":520.144,"end":542.947,"text":"邊緣的那個應用預算的時候我們要台灣加強我們要做到世界第三你現在是AI資金你是要拿來投資國外我們台灣沒有港幣錢也沒辦法借基金可以投資國外給別人利用你為什麼不把這些錢用來台灣的AI邊緣預算AI的基礎建設台灣最強"},{"start":544.27,"end":563.947,"text":"你捨盡求援,外國性格好壞,外國人就更有公義你應該把這個錢去爭取嘛你不可以搖頭,你變成實際的在座,變成一個政客了還欣賞你以為可以當政治家,來講實話"},{"start":566.397,"end":585.712,"text":"你跟你說你的政策脫離中國我們要進入美國不然你把脫離中國看看我不是那樣的現在說在那裏白痴又大大你仔細又看好喔說我在賣台我是要在台灣進我們要左右紅顏啦我們要丟在那裡看啦不可以這樣啦"},{"start":587.073,"end":588.234,"text":"我們這個地方是完全大家的看法是一樣"},{"start":608.897,"end":629.303,"text":"AI的邊緣運算我們這個經濟部在我們的技術師跟我們的產發署大力發現在在培育AI邊緣運算的人才我們預定在四年裡面培養20萬的人才有人才才有辦法把產業發展起來其他的都是空"},{"start":629.603,"end":648.436,"text":"我就是讀過你要培養AI邊緣運算,你要變成我們台灣在AI的軟體裡面變成第三強,不敢跟美國爭,客氣一點啦但是這個事情要在這裡發揮,那是公本沒有你阿伯你會落後,我跟你們說,那阿伯是變得很快"},{"start":650.491,"end":665.417,"text":"我不曉得中國大陸所做生意有編這個預算在這個境內好不好 我們真的你來跟台灣登馬步啦阿免說國王預算 不然我再跟你講幾句話大金未動 糧草新生"},{"start":667.118,"end":681.354,"text":"這個糧草你現在台灣是靠AI這個產業在賺錢的喔 講到鼻子痛一千五百會防止中國大陸日軍能打掉我完全支持那錢花在哪裡不知道謝謝委員支持好不好 謝謝好好 謝謝陳超"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時28分）主席好。首先請經濟部郭部長、國發會高副主委。"],["主席：請郭部長、高副主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。剛才聽到楊瓊瓔委員問你有關台電的問題，你說要我們相信專業，但是在立法院這幾年，我覺得台電本來是很專業，但是被政治所影響，電價本來是一直上漲，但你們維持不讓它上漲，為了表示執政有能力、執政很強，但事實上裡面暗藏了很多玄機，所以台電以前是讓人家非常相信的單位，但現在他們講的話人家不一定相信，我不知道你自己有沒有感受到，但你是企業界出身，應該很了解，政治有時候會說一些謊話，我們也聽不下去。","第二點，談到中油跟阿拉斯加，上次我問過了，你說有意向書，但無風不起浪，要採購600萬噸，還有油管配備部分，我們要結合日本、韓國一起投資，你到美國不是談這個事情，你到美國是去談我們要如何投資美國，你帶了一百多家大企業去那邊，那是掏空臺灣，你還不承認，說我們沒有意向！你人長得還滿英俊的，口才也不錯，但是你要講老實話，不要這樣「胡來胡去」啦！簡單回答一下，我不知道你聽得懂嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們帶了138家企業，包括48家新創企業是到美國參加比賽，這48家新創企業到美國投資美國，是看這些新創企業適不適合在世界的舞臺運作，謝謝你的關心，我們這48家裡面有3家獲得獎……"],["陳委員超明：你的一舉一動我很清楚啦！我是問你那個問題到底會不會發生啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們在世界的比賽中，我們是第二名……"],["陳委員超明：好啦！沒時間跟你說，主席又是執政黨的，等下站起來，我又頭痛了，這是第一點。","今天我們要進行預算解凍，凍結變成解凍，但是部長，我手邊有一個資料，在委員會裡刪減的預算，經濟部本部才刪減100萬，產發署、國貿署、中小企業署、智慧局、地礦中心，刪減的預算是零；商業發展署、水利署、標檢局、園區管理局、能源署，刪減的預算也是零；凍結的部分，經濟部本部凍結32億2,120萬、產發署凍結3,100萬、智慧財產局凍結2,500萬、商業發展署凍結200萬、水利署凍結500萬、標準檢驗局凍結100萬、能源局凍結100萬，部長你看！執政黨的委員對你好是無庸置疑，他一定要支持你，我們在野黨的委員，這種預算哪裡是減列！你知道立法院的型態，主席也最了解，以前審查預算的時候，他們都很兇，到最後都改為凍結。我今天就問你，凍結跟刪減有什麼不同？"],["郭部長智輝：刪減就是直接把費用刪掉……"],["陳委員超明：好。"],["郭部長智輝：凍結就是報告以後……"],["陳委員超明：凍結是大家對這個問題還不了解，所以先把預算凍結下來，你們再來報告，然後再討論。我再教你一個絕招，書面報告就是要讓你通過，專案報告就比較困難。你們現在都在說假話，有行政首長在大罷免案裡面說得天大地大，真的是一片謊言，部長，為何我會這樣說？我們覺得很無奈，你們的預算刪減，包括凍結是最少的，說的好像我們在野黨在欺負你們執政黨，其實是執政黨不要欺負在野黨就好！我們做事情要實在、要有良心，現在大罷免案如火如荼，如果講到刪減預算，就是抗中保臺、害臺，沒那麼嚴重啦！大家都很善良，為臺灣這一塊土地。你們是無風亂起浪，胡言亂語，如果你們的行政主管再上臺講話，那你們就是詐騙集團，資料都清清楚楚的。我是沒有被罷免成功，我很幸運，苗栗鄉親支持我，但我要來支持那些要被罷免的三十幾位立法委員、國會議員，他們才做一年而已，你們的總統也做一年而已，怎麼就要罷免人家呢？預算不能刪，預算不能凍結，這哪裡是民主國家！說起來實在令人氣憤，還好你話講得少，我今天讓你過關……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：如果你準備上台，我絕對把你……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：表示你還有良心啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，感謝！"],["陳委員超明：再來，我要跟你抱怨，這次我們的強化經濟地方韌性，其實你不怎麼盡職，這是為了關稅、為了產業發展，要保持臺灣的產業機能，但你知道你們和國發會才爭取到多少經費？在支持產業、安定就業的930億中，經濟部才拿了750億，還有農業的三大面向六大措施180億，本來是要救經濟，不要讓農民恐慌，結果國土安全韌性編列1,500億！這個問題很敏感，反對的話叫做什麼？就是抗中保臺、賣臺灣，他們會這麼講。我現在把這個問題再提出來強調，昨天我們也討論過這個問題，其實預算大家可以討論要用在哪裡，但是我看到執政黨的委員極力在批評在野黨委員，這裡面要採限制性招標，難怪他們不同意，你要講人家壞處，我也懷疑你的壞處，只是大家不要破壞感情而已，不要這樣！每一個人都可以坦開心胸來講話，一講到美國不好、一講到日本不好，就是賣臺，說實在的，世間的民主政治哪有這樣的！還有我們國家的經濟政策，我希望在你手裡要有企業的眼光，所謂南向政策是你們喊的，現在還要投資美國國家隊，然後總統出來說要成立國家主權基金，行政院長又提出AI的十大基礎建設，害我們國家都不知道要靠哪一邊？但是部長，臺灣跟NVIDIA合作，還好有這個AI，臺灣的電子產業一片欣欣向榮，真的是天佑臺灣，不然你現在要靠過去的computer、平板電腦、什麼電腦的，那都已經被人家取代了。這是臺灣人的努力，你把台積電送出去……好，不談這些，你記得嗎？你說我們臺灣要加強AI邊緣運算，我們要做到世界第三，但現在AI主權基金的錢你要拿去哪裡？投資國外！我們臺灣沒功夫，錢也沒那麼多，卻要把錢投資國外給別人用，為什麼不把這些錢用在臺灣的AI邊緣運算？AI的基礎建設臺灣最強，你們捨近求遠，外國的神較好拜，外國人就比較會說話！你應該爭取這個錢嘛！你不要搖頭，你現在實際在做的，就變成是一個政客了。我本來還欣賞你，以為你可以當政治家，可以講實話！你說你們的政策是要脫離中國、進入美國，不然你脫離中國看看！我不是要怎麼樣，但現在說起來，主席眼睛又睜得大大的看我，好像我要去賣臺，我是要臺灣能夠左右逢源，賺得到錢就要賺，不要這樣啦！你講AI邊緣運算，AI的基礎在哪裡？那個才是根，那個要去磨，磨出來要獨一無二，別人來求我們，而不是我們去求他，你看主席又站起來了，好啦！給部長說一下、讓你過關……"],["主席：不要點名我，不然我就站起來了……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就這個地方我們大家的看法是完全一樣的，關於AI的邊緣運算，我們經濟部技術司跟產發署現在在大力培育AI邊緣預算的人才，我們預定在4年裡面培養20萬個人才，有人才才有辦法把產業發展起來，其他的都是空虛的。"],["陳委員超明：我就是讀過你要培養AI邊緣運算能力，你要讓我們臺灣在AI的軟體裡面變成第三強，即我們不敢跟美國爭，要客氣一點，但是這個錢要在這裡發揮，那是根本，不然你以後就會落伍了，我告訴你，以後的變化會很快，我不曉得中國大陸……"],["郭部長智輝：我們有編這個預算在經濟部……"],["陳委員超明：你要讓臺灣蹲馬步，更不用說國防預算了，我再教你們一句話，大軍未動、糧草先行，糧草的部分，現在臺灣是靠這些AI產業去賺錢的，講到1,500億，能夠防止中國大陸入侵、能打掉，我完全支持，但錢花到哪裡去了我們並不知道……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員支持。"],["陳委員超明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員，剛才如果你沒點名我，我可能就讓你繼續講了，還好你提醒了我。好，等一下謝衣鳯委員質詢完後，我們休息5分鐘，請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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楊卓銘發言 邀請部長請部長委員長部長好"},{"start":24.635,"end":39.08,"text":"河山廠的二號機在17號的時候停役那台灣正式進入到了非核家園那我們也可以看到停役了之後呢那麼這幾天我們台中火力發電廠呈現了火力全開17號、18號晚上的中火機組都達到90%的運轉"},{"start":46.004,"end":71.509,"text":"而且十部機當中有一部機睡休 剩下九部機是超運轉那台電呢一下子說火力全開是假訊息一下子說不是夜間多發 是日間減發我們很直接的看一下發電量的圖17號跟18號 19號都比去年同期增加大概1000至2000MW"},{"start":74.79,"end":76.273,"text":"如果按照台電臉書上面所說的他沒有多發而且還說他是減罰"},{"start":83.424,"end":105.553,"text":"但是同期是增加這麼多在這樣的一個情況之下台電到底是真的裝傻還是故意的呢為什麼不願承認中火的發電為什麼要欺騙我們的國人所以我更質疑的是說在台電一直說火力全開是在造謠"},{"start":106.994,"end":126.73,"text":"但是我們強調中火10步機已經有超過6年它沒有10步全開 已經有超過了這是大家一直一直一直中央地方大家努力所以在10步機當中有9步火力全開這有什麼好得意的"},{"start":127.912,"end":129.013,"text":"站在我們台中站在我們皇屋的這個立場所以數字會說話5月17、28號單日的中國藍莓量比去年同日多了0.85萬跟1萬噸的這個莓"},{"start":146.092,"end":158.169,"text":"那連最基礎的數據都已經強烈的告訴我們我們還要硬拗嗎我們還要硬拗中火沒有增加發電我們還要硬拗沒有增加負擔"},{"start":159.838,"end":163.501,"text":"台電到底把台中人的健康是當笑話嗎本席再給你一個背景也就是台電在一起的時候 燃氣機組的環評他承諾在非空污劑的時候只開九步機所以換句話說台電現在能夠開的就是九步九步全開不是火力全開嗎還要硬拗這個嗎所以事實上我們看到目前為止"},{"start":189.468,"end":208.461,"text":"台中的中火因為市府監督環保的限制我們大多運轉部長大概60%但是這幾天為了供電為了補上河山電力的一個缺口九部機組都要超運轉尤其到了晚上"},{"start":209.662,"end":229.479,"text":"中火都是增加50%以上的發電量各機組的運轉都幾乎要超過90%一直開到半夜 您看看半夜的天空是如何一直開到半夜的凌晨就是展現這樣子的一個樣態所以本期要請教"},{"start":232.768,"end":247.715,"text":"是不是因為預測到會加開這個火力所以過去我們在討論的時候中火機組爭議的時候政府不敢承諾逐年遞減 減煤的數字只有說到2031年才開始減煤但是 本市要說像這樣子在這幾天中火超高的一個電轉量燃煤量"},{"start":263.366,"end":275.77,"text":"當然會加大我們台中的空污會傷害台中人的健康所以部長進入夏天這樣子的一個火力全開請問部長會是常態嗎會是常態嗎請問部長我請台電跟你回答一下"},{"start":283.123,"end":292.329,"text":"是 跟委員再說明啦剛才委員其實有提到台電跟台中市政府配合的情況下請問 針對本席的提問像這樣的情況尤其在現在夏天火力全開這會是常態嗎當然不會是常態啊當然不會是常態 這是你應許的本來就不是常態的 不知道委員本來就不是常態 那為什麼要這樣子呢"},{"start":309.54,"end":336.745,"text":"最近幾天其實是因為日間跟夜間的關係剛才委員也提到了日間其實太陽光鏈上來的時候其實我們就可以把南美的往下降那夜間如果太陽光鏈消失的時候南美基礎最近幾天確實是因為有部分的基礎故障所以他才臨時性的把它往上調那但是總歸都會符合在剛才委員提到的我們跟事務的這個當時的承諾非空氣就是最多就只能你請回我再請部長"},{"start":337.83,"end":350.08,"text":"部長 本席要請教一定要跟台電好好的來溝通不要只有用話術要欺騙民眾因為面對數字 面對真相"},{"start":353.396,"end":376.988,"text":"要怎麼樣能夠去改革能源的配套不要火力全開因為這幾天的數字讓國人嚇一跳讓我們台中人很憂心很憂心剛剛台電回答是說不會是常態我再次請教珠島單位的經濟部長會不會是常態燒很多的煤會不會是常態請教部長"},{"start":382.779,"end":398.232,"text":"我們會來跟台電好好的盤點就按照委員所關心的命題我們會努力你會願意跟台電好好的來盤點跟溝通本席具體強調這幾天的數字讓國人"},{"start":402.802,"end":409.844,"text":"非常的緊張讓我們台中人中部地區非常的憂心非常的憂心因為我們強調不要火力全開而且我們強調燒很多的煤我們是拒絕的因為在我們的經濟委員會在任會裡頭藍綠白的委員大家共識決也就是今年的中國減煤量要達到100萬噸"},{"start":431.57,"end":434.272,"text":"這是經過我們詳實的討論也出了我們的委員會也出了用會所以我在這邊還是要強烈的拜託部長一定要跟台電好好的溝通中火火力全開我們絕對拒絕中火要燒很多煤成為常態我們也絕對拒絕我們拒絕台中人用廢發電部長你的看法呢"},{"start":463.226,"end":488.805,"text":"這個委員的這個指教我們都會留意的你會來留意會不會承諾他不是一個常態他不會燒很多煤請教部長那剛才我想我們台電專業的回答就是不會是常態不會是常態所以委員要相信我們專業一定要好好的去溝通一定要好好的溝通我們也會強力的來監督再請教"},{"start":490.216,"end":516.962,"text":"我們真夠美的天然氣因為部長在中遊在3月份的時候簽署了阿拉斯加的這個天然氣投資意向書那據報導美國的阿拉斯加州長他說12號他說台灣您向阿拉斯加採購600萬噸的天然氣因為本行非常的重視我們的能源配比到底要怎麼做才能夠真正的去"},{"start":517.702,"end":544.029,"text":"火力不全開那所以我們繼續來討論也就是說他說這600萬噸呢大概是佔阿拉斯加這個液化天然氣管線計畫年產能的三成那對阿拉斯加來說 州長說他是佔了史上最大規模的這個天然氣的採購那請教部長 州長所說的是真的嗎是屬實嗎我還沒有收到這個報告"},{"start":545.319,"end":570.574,"text":"你還沒收到這個報告可是州長在媒體上披露的那你這個到底怎麼回事啊為什麼這麼重大你還不知道部長這個是事情嚴重哦州長已經這麼說12號今天已經22號那部長你說你不知道真的不知道嗎因為我上個禮拜都在美國真的不知道嗎我上個禮拜都在美國"},{"start":571.533,"end":589.586,"text":"好 你回答不知道 那本席要請教那我們3月份中有所簽的 因為您是坑頭整個能源的督導單位那您說這麼重大的竟然不知道 州長12號都這麼說了 你會去了解但是本席請教 真正有沒有這樣的投資計畫有沒有有沒有這樣的投資計畫你說哪一個投資計畫阿拉斯加的這個投資計畫"},{"start":597.062,"end":606.352,"text":"阿拉斯加是我們有簽了一個意向書嘛那個意向書是我當場在場的啊那你在場你怎麼會不知道呢但是這個計畫裡面並沒有講說我跟他買600萬噸啊是沒有齁所以我們大家都是很想知道真正的"},{"start":613.84,"end":620.627,"text":"我們是有投資的意願嘛這個是意向書嘛沒有具體的這個數字所以州長講的是不屬實的在你目前所得到的資訊我們並沒有承諾要買這600萬噸的天然氣是不是如此"},{"start":637.732,"end":660.418,"text":"當然是沒有承諾的嘛是沒有承諾 好所以繼續本席還要再請教最後一個議題也就是我們計畫要採購美國的油氣那本席也覺得 也聽到您的論述就是說中油可以去購買美油然後我們再提煉完了再賣到菲律賓這一件 這個計畫是有在進行動嗎報告委員我們本來就有在買美國的油啦對"},{"start":666.643,"end":676.198,"text":"然後您說要這個煉製完我們再賣到菲律賓多元發展嘛 對有這個計畫嘛 是不是是不是 有沒有這個計畫 是"},{"start":678.497,"end":701.843,"text":"這個是我們在討論的一個方向所以還沒有確定 還在評估當中這個公務機關還有不像民間啦 收到就可以做啦不是收到 公務機關要評估啊 有沒有在評估要送到大院啊 你們不同意我們也沒辦法做啊中油購買美油 然後提煉完賣到菲律賓這項計畫 本席請問有沒有這個計畫 有沒有評估"},{"start":707.189,"end":712.031,"text":"現在目前是沒有這個計畫因為我們在訊息當中當然一定要問真正的這個主管機關單位才不會以而傳而這個就是本席所提問的目標謝謝所以有任何的訊息我們也希望可以得到真正的這個方向一起為我們的能源配備改革方案來"},{"start":730.339,"end":759.099,"text":"那最後我給一個功課就是部長我一直在跟你討論的我們就希望說我們要解決台電的財務黑洞那我們的能源配比的方向所以包括本席剛剛提到阿拉斯加包括了這個美油購買的方向我想你也絞盡腦汁怎麼樣可以多元去發展我希望能夠在你們的評估效益當中能源配比的方案給本席一份資料"},{"start":762.18,"end":786.872,"text":"這個多元的能源是我們的政策我們會找到能夠讓它的成本能夠不斷的降低這個才是我們努力的方向但是因為綠電是未來在整個世界上面對產業有十足的需求所以我們會用這個方向來努力各種"},{"start":788.153,"end":789.173,"text":"各種多元 我們都會考慮"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":452,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時14分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，我要請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，核三廠2號機在17號的時候停役，臺灣正式進入了非核家園。但我們也看到了，在停役之後，這幾天我們台中火力發電廠呈現出的是火力全開，17號、18號晚上的中火機組都達到90%的運轉，而且10機當中有1部機歲修，剩下9部機是超運轉。台電一下子說火力全開是假訊息，一下子說不是夜間多發，是日間減發。我們很直接的來看一下發電量的圖，17號跟18號、19號都比去年同期增加大概1,000至2,000MW。如果按照台電臉書上面所說的沒有多發，而且還說是減發，但是與同期相比卻增加這麼多，在這樣的情況之下，台電到底是真的裝傻還是故意的呢？為什麼不願承認中火的發電？為什麼要欺騙我們的國人？我更質疑的是，台電一直說火力全開是在造謠，但我們強調中火的10部機已經有超過6年沒有10部全開，這是中央地方大家一直一直在努力的，現在10部機當中有9部火力全開，這有什麼好得意的？站在我們臺中、站在我們防污的立場，數字會說話。5月17號、18號，中火單日的燃煤量比去年同日多了0.8萬跟1萬噸的煤，連最基礎的數據都已經強烈的告訴我們，你們還要硬拗嗎？你們還要硬拗中火沒有增加發電，你們還要硬拗沒有增加負擔，台電是把臺中人的健康當笑話嗎？","本席再給你一個背景，也就是台電一期的燃氣機組環評時，它承諾在非空污季的時候只開9部機。所以換句話說，台電現在能夠開的就是9部，9部全開不是火力全開嗎？還要硬拗這個嗎？所以事實上我們看到的是，目前為止，臺中中火因為市府監督跟環保的限制，我們大都運轉約60%，但是這幾天為了供電，為了補上核三電力的缺口，9部機組都要超運轉，尤其到了晚上，中火都是增加50%以上的發電量，各機組的運轉都幾乎要超過90%，一直開到半夜，您看看半夜的天空是如何？一直看到半夜的凌晨，就是展現這樣子的一個樣態。所以本席要請教，是不是因為預測到會加開這個火力，所以過去我們在討論中火機組爭議的時候，政府不敢承諾逐年遞減減煤的數字，只有說到2031年才開始減煤，但是本席要說像這樣子在這幾天中火超高的運轉量、燃煤量，當然會加大我們臺中的空污，會傷害臺中人的健康。所以進入夏天這樣子的火力全開，請問部長，會是常態嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請台電跟你回答一下。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，跟委員說明，剛才委員其實有提到台電跟臺中市政府配合的情況下，我們在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，像這樣的情況，尤其在現在夏天火力全開，這會是常態嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：當然不會是常態。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然不會是常態，這是你應許的？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：本來就不是常態了，報告委員，最近……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本來就不是常態，那麼為什麼要這樣子呢？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：最近幾天其實是因為日間跟夜間的關係，剛才委員也提到了日間，太陽光電上來的時候，其實我們就可以把燃煤往下降，夜間如果太陽光電消失的時候，燃煤機組最近幾天確實是因為有部分的機組故障，所以才臨時性的把它往上調，但是總歸都會符合在剛才委員提到的，我們跟市府當時的承諾，非空污季最多就只能九部運轉……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回，我再請部長。","部長，本席要請教，一定要跟台電好好的來溝通，不要只有用話術欺騙民眾，因為面對數字、面對真相，要怎麼樣能夠改革能源的配套，不要火力全開？因為這幾天的數字讓國人嚇一跳，讓我們臺中人很憂心。剛剛台電回答不會是常態，我再次請教督導單位的經濟部長，會不會是常態，燒很多的煤會不會是常態？請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會跟台電好好的盤點，那就按照委員所關心的命題，我們會努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會願意跟台電好好的來盤點跟溝通？本席具體強調，這幾天的數字讓國人非常的緊張，讓我們臺中人、中部地區非常的憂心，非常的憂心！因為我們強調不要火力全開，而且我們強調燒很多的煤，我們是拒絕的，因為在我們經濟委員會、在院會裡頭，藍綠白的委員大家共識決，也就是今年的中火減煤量要達到100萬噸，這是經過我們詳實的討論，也出了我們的委員會，也出了院會。所以我在這邊還是要強烈的拜託部長，一定要跟台電好好的溝通，中火火力全開，我們絕對拒絕；中火要燒很多煤，成為常態，我們也絕對拒絕！我們拒絕臺中人用肺發電！部長，你的看法呢？"],["郭部長智輝：委員的指教，我們都會留意的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會來留意？會不會承諾它不是一個常態，它不會燒很多煤？請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：剛才我們台電專業的回答就是不會是常態嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不會是常態。"],["郭部長智輝：所以委員要相信我們專業的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要好好的去溝通，一定要好好溝通，我們也會強力的來監督。","再請教，我們增購美國的天然氣，因為中油在3月份的時候，簽署了阿拉斯加的天然氣投資意向書，據報導，美國阿拉斯加州長12日時表示臺灣擬向阿拉斯加採購600萬噸的天然氣，因為本席非常重視我們的能源配比到底要怎麼做，才能夠真正的火力不全開，所以我們繼續來討論，他說這600噸大概是占阿拉斯加液化天然氣管線計畫年產能的三成，對阿拉斯加來說，州長說它是占了史上最大規模的天然氣採購，請教部長，州長所說的是真的嗎？是屬實嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我還沒有收到這個報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還沒收到這個報告？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可是州長在媒體所上披露的，那麼這個到底怎麼回事？"],["郭部長智輝：我會來了解一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼這麼重大，你還不知道？部長，這個事情嚴重，州長在12日已經這麼說，今天已經22日，部長你說你不知道，真的不知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我上個禮拜都在美國……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：真的不知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我上個禮拜都在美國。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你回答不知道，那麼本席要請教，3月份中油所簽的，因為您是handle整個能源的督導單位，這麼重大的採購，您竟然不知道，州長12日都這麼說了，您說會去了解，但是本席請教，真正有沒有這樣的投資計畫，有沒有這樣的投資計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：你說哪一個投資計畫？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：阿拉斯加的這個投資計畫。"],["郭部長智輝：阿拉斯加是我們有簽了一個意向書，意向書是我當場在場的啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你在場，你怎麼會不知道呢？"],["郭部長智輝：但是這個計畫裡面並沒有講我跟他買600萬噸啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是沒有喔？所以我們大家都很想知道真正的答案是什麼，有要買……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們是有投資的意願，這個是意向書嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有要投資的意願，但是沒有說……"],["郭部長智輝：但是沒有具體的這個數字。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以600萬噸還沒有，州長講的不是屬實的？在你目前所得到的資訊，我們並沒有承諾要買這600萬噸的天然氣，是不是如此？"],["郭部長智輝：當然是沒有承諾的嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有承諾？好。所以繼續本席還要再請教最後一個議題，也就是我們計畫要採購美國的油氣，本席也覺得聽到您的論述，就是中油可以去購買美油，然後我們提煉完了再賣到菲律賓，這個計畫有在進行中嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們本來就有在買美國的油。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，然後您說這個煉製完了，我們再賣到菲律賓？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是可以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多元發展嘛！有這個計畫，是不是？有沒有這個計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們在討論的一個方向嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以還沒有確定，還在評估當中？"],["郭部長智輝：公務機構不像民間，想到就可以做啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是想到，公務機關要評估啊，有沒有在評估？"],["郭部長智輝：要送到大院啊！你們不同意，我們也沒辦法做啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有，不是這樣。中油購買美油，然後提煉完賣到菲律賓，關於這項計畫，本席請問有沒有這個計畫、有沒有評估？"],["郭部長智輝：目前是沒有這個計畫。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，沒有計畫？好。因為我們聽到訊息，當然一定要問真正的主管機關單位，才不會以訛傳訛，這個就是本席所提問的目標。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。所以有任何的訊息，我們也希望可以得到真正的方向，一起為我們的能源配比改革方案來努力。","最後我給一個功課，就是我一直在跟部長討論的，我們希望要解決台電的財務黑洞，我們的能源配比的方向，所以包括本席剛剛提到阿拉斯加，包括了美油購買的方向，我想你也絞盡腦汁怎麼樣可以多元去發展，我希望能夠在你們的評估效益當中，能源配比的方案，給本席一份資料。"],["郭部長智輝：好的，多元的能源是我們的政策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們會找到讓它的成本能夠不斷的降低，這個才是我們努力的方向，但是因為綠電是未來在整個世界上面，對產業有十足的需求，所以我們會往這個方向來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["郭部長智輝：各種能夠發電的方式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：各種多元嘛！各種方向……"],["郭部長智輝：我們都會考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這個也是本席一直討論很多次的，能源的配比，我們要怎麼樣去改革、去精進、去優化嘛！請把這個書面資料給本席，OK？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","下一位請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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請鄭天才委員發言好 主席有請這個國發會副主委來 請高副主委副主委好"},{"start":32.685,"end":56.325,"text":"這個0403地震是去年4月3號發生非常謝謝陳建仁院長到左榮泰院長到交通部長多次的到這個花蓮實地的去視察但是呢經過了一年多這段時間呢"},{"start":58.264,"end":86.405,"text":"斷斷细细都有一下雨就中斷一下雨就中斷北回鐵路啊從這個民國八十年左右開始通車一直到現在只有04 03地震當下都還安全的都沒有問題是後來的遺症特別多後來的遺症特別多才造成現在一下大雨就中斷"},{"start":88.118,"end":114.168,"text":"5月18號又嚴重的中斷真的是要感謝神沒有發生任何的人員的傷亡跟火車的這些都能夠及時的停下來所以這個是非常急迫的他除了鐵路之外也包含了蘇花公路所以這樣的一個情形一年多了這個計劃"},{"start":118.427,"end":141.501,"text":"我也曾經這個質詢過國發會趕快去協調交通部行政院質詢國發會當初彭副主委說好所以這個部分一直到上個月我也質詢交通部對於這個0403台鐵宜華東地區鐵路設施改善計劃"},{"start":146.877,"end":165.972,"text":"其實河仁到崇德才一點多公里1.6公里我們看這個到現在都還沒有都還在交通部這幾天副主委這幾天會送到國發會請國發會把這個計畫趕快送到行政院"},{"start":172.485,"end":195.571,"text":"跟我們報告 黃縣長跟我說我們已經送到行政院了不是台鐵喔就是剛剛那個計畫你剛剛講的是蘇花安啦對 蘇花安你講的是蘇花安啦是這個我每天都在掌控 都在追蹤喔因為我當公務員 當過管制考核的公務人員我們來看北迴鐵路北迴鐵路"},{"start":199.827,"end":222.169,"text":"79.2公里5.7公里的新縣然後20個大橋16座隧道設了14個站兩個月因為颱風謝東明省主席去跟蔣經國院長報告之後馬上核定然後就動工"},{"start":224.083,"end":247.739,"text":"非常非常快 六年就完工了 這麼長的喔現在科技這麼發達真的是難以想像我們看蘇花安蘇花安呢108年12月20號蔡政府時代做了可行性研究的核定一直到113年12月9號交通部把這個"},{"start":250.67,"end":270.64,"text":"計劃送到行政院就剛這個有講了當初我也有諮詢過國發會趕快送去你們也很快的送去但是放在院長的桌上五個多月了所以這個部分真的要重視要重視繼續"},{"start":274.556,"end":298.877,"text":"繼續協調好不好好 我們就我們的執掌我們部分我們會來協助這個非常非常的重要因為台灣真的很小啊然後就這麼一小段樹花改的工程呢兩年從可行性研究核定兩年就核定的這個興建計畫"},{"start":302.096,"end":319.214,"text":"民國97年 馬英九時代都會做比較 人民會做比較所以好不好 何況這個抒發案是比較好做的喔當初抒發改是比較困難的喔 好不好好 接下來這個 演兵會的"},{"start":324.522,"end":352.681,"text":"原住民族住宅四年三期计划这114年到117年我上次也有咨询了上次也有咨询这个就是因为为了因应什么社会住宅住宅法第二条第四项规定的很清楚要新建专供原住民层住的社会住宅到现在都没有105年12月23号修正的这个住宅法"},{"start":353.561,"end":372.068,"text":"到現在都還沒有一個都沒有所以而現在這個都會區的差距非常大住宅的自由力所以大部分幾乎都是要成豬了所以這樣的一個原住民人口已經達到在都會區51.57%了"},{"start":377.109,"end":389.348,"text":"在這樣一個情形之下地方政府他也希望興建社會專攻原住民族的社會住宅要依住宅法但是就是沒有錢沒有錢"},{"start":391.431,"end":416.223,"text":"在這樣的情形之下所以我上次質詢的時候希望能夠去修正這個3月19號質詢國發會你們那時候也同意同意修正這個原住民住宅的四年三期計劃你們同意所以現在時間很緊迫趕快 人民會也送來了嗎"},{"start":420.491,"end":447.218,"text":"還沒有嗎還沒有我們有協調原委會去規劃這個修很容易啦因為原來已經有這個四年計劃嘛只是把這個社會住宅就是匡列多少錢就這樣而已嘛委員我們再去追蹤一下進度因為原委會已經有很多經驗了其實最快的是什麼我在當副主委的時候最快的是什麼編一筆預算公務預算"},{"start":448.45,"end":467.184,"text":"直接買啊直接買嘛集合民間的集合式住宅空的他剛蓋好的對不對也是促進啊對不對所以這個機會很容易如果是要架構那最容易連新建還要花很多時間反正現在空屋很多嘛對不對好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":424,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時6分）主席，有請國發會副主委。"],["主席：請高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副主委好。0403地震是去年4月3號發生的，非常謝謝陳建仁院長、卓榮泰院長及交通部長多次到花蓮實地去視察。但是已經過了一年多，這段時間斷斷續續都有一下雨就交通中斷、一下雨就交通中斷的情況。","北迴鐵路從民國80年左右開始通車，一直到現在，在0403地震的當下都還是安全的，都沒有問題，是後來的餘震特別多才造成現在一下大雨就中斷。5月18號又發生嚴重的中斷，真的是要感謝神，沒有造成任何的人員傷亡，火車能及時的停下來，所以這個是非常急迫的。除了鐵路之外，也包含了蘇花公路，這樣的情形一年多了。這個計畫我也曾經質詢過國發會，要求國發會趕快去協調交通部、行政院，當初在質詢國發會的時候，彭主委說好。對於這個部分，我一直很關心，上個月我也質詢交通部有關於0403後的臺鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫，其實和仁到崇德才1.6公里，但是到現在這個計畫都還在交通部。副主委，這幾天會送到國發會，請國發會把這個計畫趕快送到行政院。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，處長跟我說我們已經送到行政院了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，臺鐵的喔！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：剛剛那個計畫。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你剛剛講的是蘇花安啦！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，蘇花安。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你講的是蘇花安啦！這個我每天都在掌控、都在追蹤，因為我當過管制考核的公務人員啦！","我們來看北迴鐵路，北迴鐵路有79.2公里幹線、5.7公里新線，20公尺以上大橋22座、16座隧道、設14站。兩個月，因為颱風，謝東閔省主席去跟蔣經國院長報告之後馬上核定，然後就動工，非常非常快，6年就完工了，這麼長喔，現在科技這麼發達，真的是難以想像！","我們再看蘇花安，蘇花安從108年12月20號，蔡政府時代做了可行性研究的核定，一直到113年12月9號，交通部把這個計畫送到行政院，剛剛有講了，當初我質詢國發會時要求趕快送去，你們也很快的送去了，但是放在院長的桌上五個多月了，所以這個部分真的要重視，請繼續協調，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我們會就我們職掌的部分來協助。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個非常非常的重要，因為臺灣真的很小啦，就這麼一小段蘇花改的工程，兩年喔，從可行性研究核定，兩年就核定的這個興建計畫，民國97年，馬英九時代，人民都會做比較的，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：何況這個蘇花安是比較好做的喔，當初蘇花改是比較困難的，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來是原民會的原住民族住宅四年三期計畫，114年到117年，我上次也有質詢了，這個就是為了因應社會住宅，住宅法第二條第四項規定的很清楚，要興建專供原住民承租的社會住宅，但是到現在都沒有喔，105年12月23號修正的住宅法，到現在都還沒有，一個都沒有！原住民族家庭的住宅自有率低於全國平均值，尤其都會區的差距非常大，所以大部分幾乎都是在承租，而原住民人口在都會區已經達到51.57%了，在這樣的情形之下，地方政府也希望依住宅法的規定興建專供原住民族的社會住宅，但就是沒有錢啊！在這樣的情形之下，所以我上次質詢的時候希望能夠去做修正，我在3月19號質詢國發會，你們那時候也同意修正原住民族住宅四年三期計畫，你們同意了，現在時間很緊迫，請問原民會有送來了嗎？還沒有吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：還沒有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好好去督促、協調。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們有協調原民會去規劃。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個修很容易啦，因為原來已經有這個四年計畫嘛，只是把這個社會住宅匡列多少錢，就這樣而已嘛。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員，我們再去追蹤一下進度。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為原民會已經有很多經驗了，其實最快的是什麼，我在當副主委的時候，最快的是什麼，編一筆公務預算直接買，直接買民間的集合式住宅，空的、剛蓋好的，對不對？也是促進，對不對？所以這個計畫很容易，如果現在價購是最容易，興建還要花很多時間，反正現在空屋很多嘛，對不對？好，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝委員。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：謝謝鄭天財委員。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","呂玉玲"],"page_start":139,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 39案；二、處理或\n審查 114 年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21 案；三、繼續審\n查：(一)行政院函請審議「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美惠等18人\n擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「個人資料保護\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 四) 本院委員李坤城等16 人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委\n員陳亭妃等16人擬具「個人資料保護法第十二條、第二十七條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(七)本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145201_00003"}}},{"id":"161791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1976c9e92d55c2f98dab696cbcf64711c1afe2edc2e0cc67aad19b4ced7b4d8b8c3f6bbd0a8feaf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:56:22 - 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請部長跟高副主委首先先請一下高副主委一下因為賴總統在520談話當中說提到要成立主權基金的部分我想請教一下國發會這邊看法是怎麼樣我先簡單講一下因為前央行的"},{"start":33.629,"end":53.427,"text":"就是彭淮南那個總裁他有特別提到說他反對用外匯存底無償撥為主權基金的使用然後另外財政部跟央行他們都已經跳出來直接講說這個事情不歸他們管我想請教一下國發會對這部分的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":54.381,"end":74.271,"text":"我想基本上總統已經宣示我們要成立主權基金那院長也有在院會裡面在那個立法院質詢的時候也明白表示我們會成立專案所以就我們國發會我們作為行政團隊的議員我們當然就是尊重總統跟那個院長的指示所以總統在做這樣的一個宣示之前的時候有沒有跟國發會這邊溝通過"},{"start":76.272,"end":97.93,"text":"我覺得有跟行政院相關的單位溝通過OK 我為什麼特別提到這個問題因為那個副主委因為在113年12月13號的時候立法院曾經請國發會提出主權基金的一個規劃進度報告那麼在今年的1月15號國發會也回函了立法院你知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":101.394,"end":123.266,"text":"就我所知我們曾經因為前你知道這件事情嗎你知道今年1月15號國發會有回函立法院針對國發基金的一個資料我手上這一份非常的清楚國發基金還是對於那個主權基金對主權基金的一個回覆"},{"start":125.233,"end":147.389,"text":"你不知道是不是我直接跟你講在這份資料當中的時候那個國發會這邊很清楚的知道表示說他們邀集了央行主計總署財政部金管會勞動基金運用局公務員退府基金管理局共同討論得到的結論有四項"},{"start":148.61,"end":168.836,"text":"有四項結論第一個說國內已經有類似主權基金的機制而且操作績效良好這第一點第二點的時候強調主權基金追求報酬極大化波動風險高第三個部分提到如果需要提高外匯投資比例可以請央行研議"},{"start":170.256,"end":192.123,"text":"那麼第四個部分提到國發基金之中已經有類主權基金性質的台三公司正在進行全球策略的產業投資佈局所以結論的時候呢基本上國發會是不認為需要有主權基金的才四個月的時候竟然有發生這麼大的一個轉彎然後剛剛副主委所表示就是"},{"start":193.363,"end":220.96,"text":"我們聽不出來總統要做這樣主權基金的宣示的時候有跟國發會這邊先討論過或諮詢過國發會的意思我跟委員報告說因為這是1月15號的所以1月15號我們發函的時候我們是根據我們過去所以四個月就出現了重大變化您聽我講完就是我們有就是爭據我們之前跟各個相關部會我們也討論的"},{"start":223.141,"end":246.614,"text":"結論跟那個回復這個然後我要 可以翻到那四個結論嗎第一個呢 的確 如果 因為整個國發會給立法院的報告很清楚的認為其實不太需要主權基金結果四個月的時候 你講說國發會今天找了這麼多的單位結果四個月之後的時候 總統就做了另外一個不一樣的宣告"},{"start":246.994,"end":271.688,"text":"因為我想特別問一下部分因為在這個時間點宣告的時候很多國人其實很擔心一件事情因為我們郭部長剛陪我們前國發會的時候我們的行政院秘書長去了美國參加他們SLAC USA的部分的時候那強調要讓美國再次的偉大所以大家擔心是不是主權基金這次的時候要把台灣一些相關的一個基金去重壓美國"},{"start":273.773,"end":289.713,"text":"我覺得不能這樣說因為我剛才講到說我們其實主權基金有三個一個是策略性投資財務性投資或是mix那的確我們說我們現行的有一些譬如說我們的財三啊國發啊或者市場基金裡面也有一些"},{"start":291.154,"end":312.348,"text":"策略財務型投資的那種性質所以我們就會回答說我們國內也有類似的因為你要回答因為我時間有限你如果覺得要針對1月15號你們給立法院的一個主權基金的一個回報要做一個法轄彎的時候你之後再來跟我做一個很詳細的一個說明好不好那因為針對這個部分"},{"start":313.849,"end":327.455,"text":"很多國人很擔心這個主權基金是不是變成就像我們讓台積電到美國去就像我們在對等關稅當中的時候我們很快的在整個對美談判當中的時候很快的就貢獻出我們台灣的貢獻處為了要讓我們"},{"start":330.777,"end":353.078,"text":"前國發會主委我們國民新秘書長說要讓美國再次偉大我們擔心我們的主權基金是不是要配合這件事情我覺得我們主權基金只有一個目的就是讓台灣的產業競爭力更加的強化所以在之後我們對於整個相關的法所以到時候我們主權基金會是國發會這邊在主管嗎我們要看"},{"start":353.938,"end":374.308,"text":"行政院指定誰作為主管機關目前還沒有確定那這個問題剛丟出來我想說您這邊如果對於1月15號給立法院的資料跟你現在要再次對政府的一個政策做一個辯護的時候要怎麼樣轉彎你再跟本辦公室做一個很詳細的一個報告我們會跟委員仔細的解釋絕對不是法夾彎"},{"start":375.569,"end":403.328,"text":"然後我這邊我要特別問一件事情就是說因為在這一次就是賴總統的這個一年的報告當中的時候整個市政滿意度當中的時候我發現經濟的議題當中是民眾非常的不滿意的包括TVBS民調當中的時候我對經濟發展跟能源政策其實在整個滿意度當中都非常非常的偏低那麼在進新聞的民調當中的時候呢就是對經濟滿意度的"},{"start":406.23,"end":407.791,"text":"我請台電跟你說明一下OK"},{"start":434.66,"end":452.974,"text":"興達其實他還沒有除役他去年9月就到期對不對我們送審他在嚴審中他嚴審中的時候呢可是基本上沒有被批准所以當時的時候提到一個狀態就是說當我們的備載電量在8%以下的時候他可以作為緊急使用是不是這個情況"},{"start":454.396,"end":467.17,"text":"所以說現在我們的新達電廠30號藍莓酒現在我們在質詢這時間點它還在運作就表示我們現在的備載容量已經在8%左右或者低於8%的情況是這樣子嗎"},{"start":468.712,"end":492.779,"text":"他是在之前我們前幾天預估夜間風有可能不到8%所以他必須運作那機組的特性你運作之後不能讓他上來就馬上停他必須要適用機組的特性讓他慢慢的去做適度的降載所以他必須所以這個地方就像我之前幾個禮拜我問到一個大林五號機組天然氣機組的時候也是已經除夜之後的時候現在變成緊急使用然後"},{"start":493.519,"end":508.026,"text":"台電也在使用那現在星達電廠三四號藍莓機組我們這個時間點他還繼續在用然後已經到齊了然後你們說你們要研議可是還沒有過的時候呢他現在用緊急使用的時候然後我們現在正在燒"},{"start":510.263,"end":531.6,"text":"興達電廠30號燃煤機組那我這邊的時候我要特別跟那個郭部長這邊提到一個點你現在給我30秒鐘我做一個結論你超過5分鐘針對這個我們就是核管法已經過了你之前說你有跟我提到說我們最快的時候如果行政部門配合跟我們要去訂製新的燃料棒的時候大概需要16到18個月對不對"},{"start":534.042,"end":559.613,"text":"所以我在想說我們目前對於這個部分要怎麼樣的去讓台灣的電力其實能夠充足夠用因為德國去年比我們提早一年變成非核家園他們現在出現一個很清楚缺電跟電價高漲的情況他們也開始表示不反對法國他們要在歐盟當中把核能"},{"start":561.138,"end":562.839,"text":"我還是要懇請各位委員稍微遵守一下時間我都會給大家多幾分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":359,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時56分）謝謝主席，我想請一下國發會高副主委還有經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請部長跟高副主委。"],["鄭委員正鈐：首先先請一下高副主委，因為……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：賴總統在520談話當中提到要成立主權基金的部分，我想請教一下國發會這邊看法是怎麼樣？我先簡單講一下，因為前央行總裁彭淮南，他有特別提到，他反對用外匯存底無償撥為主權基金的使用。另外，財政部跟央行他們都已經跳出來直接講說這個事情不歸他們管，我想請教一下，國發會對於這部分的看法是怎麼樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想基本上總統已經宣示我們要成立主權基金，院長也有在立法院質詢時明白表示我們會成立專案，所以我們國發會作為行政團隊的一員，我們當然尊重總統跟院長的指示。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以總統在做這樣的宣示之前，有沒有跟國發會這邊溝通過？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得有跟行政院相關的單位溝通過。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我為什麼特別提到這個問題？副主委，因為在113年12月13號的時候，立法院曾經請國發會提出主權基金的規劃進度報告，在今年的1月15號，國發會也回函立法院，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：就我所知，我們曾經因為……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你知道這件事情嗎？你知道今年1月15號國發會有回函立法院，是針對國發基金的資料，我手上這一份非常的清楚……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是國發基金還是主權基金？"],["鄭委員正鈐：對主權基金的一個回函，你不知道，是不是？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我不曉得。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我直接跟你講，在這份資料當中，國發會很清楚的表示有邀集央行、主計總處、財政部、金管會、勞動基金運用局、公務人員退撫基金管理局共同討論，得到的結論有四項：第一點是國內已經有類似主權基金的機制，而且操作績效良好，這是第一點。第二點是強調主權基金追求報酬極大化，波動風險高。第三點提到如果需要提高外匯投資比例，可請央行研議。第四點提到國發基金之中已有類主權基金性質的台杉公司正在進行全球策略性產業投資布局。所以結論就是基本上國發會不認為需要有主權基金，但是才4個月的時間竟然發生這麼大的轉彎……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員，我只能跟……"],["鄭委員正鈐：然後剛剛副主委所表示的，我們聽不出來總統要做主權基金這項宣示時有跟國發會先討論過或諮詢過國發會的意見。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告，因為這是1月15號的函，1月15號我們發函的時候，我們是根據過去曾經……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以4個月就出現了重大變化啊？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：您聽我講完，我們是根據之前跟各相關部會討論的結論來回函，簡報可以翻到那四個結論嗎？第一個，的確……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為時間有限……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，主權基金如果……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為整個國發會給立法院的報告很清楚地認為不太需要主權基金，國發會當初找了這麼多個單位來討論，結果4個月之後，總統就做了另外一個不一樣的宣告！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想特別問一下，他在這個時間點宣告，很多國人其實很擔心一件事情，因為我們郭部長才剛陪行政院秘書長（前國發會主委）去美國參加他們的SelectUSA，強調要讓美國再次偉大，所以大家擔心這個主權基金是不是要把臺灣一些相關的基金去重押美國？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得不能這樣說，因為我剛才講到，主權基金有三種，分別是策略型投資、財務型投資或是mix，的確我們現行有一些，譬如說台杉、國發或者四大基金裡面也有一些財務型投資的那種性質，所以我們就會回答說國內也有類似的基金有同樣的性質。"],["鄭委員正鈐：副主委，因為我時間有限，你如果要針對1月15號你們給立法院有關主權基金的回函要做一個髮夾彎的時候，請你之後再來跟我做一個很詳細的說明，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這個部分，很多國人很擔心，這個主權基金是不是會變成像我們讓台積電到美國去，就像在對等關稅當中，我們在對美談判的時候很快地就貢獻出我們臺灣能夠貢獻的，為了我們前國發會主委的龔明鑫秘書長說要讓美國再次偉大，我們擔心我們的主權基金是不是要配合這件事情？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得我們主權基金只有一個目的，就是讓臺灣的產業競爭力更加的強化，不是在於要扶植任何的國家。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以之後我們對於整個相關的法……所以到時候我們的主權基金是國發會這邊主管嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：要看行政院指定誰作為主管機關，目前還沒有確定。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個問題才剛丟出來，您這邊如果對於1月15號給立法院的資料，跟你現在要再次對政府的政策做辯護的時候，要怎麼樣轉彎，請你再跟本辦公室做一個很詳細的報告。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們會跟委員仔細地解釋，絕對不是髮夾彎。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。我在這邊要特別問一件事情，在這一次賴總統的周年施政滿意度調查當中，我發現民眾對於經濟的部分是非常不滿意，以TVBS民調來看，民眾對於經濟發展、能源政策的滿意比率在整個滿意度調查當中都非常非常的偏低；在鏡新聞的民調當中，對經濟滿意度的比率也是最低的，是各項指標裡面最低的。","因為時間有限，我想特別請教郭部長，因為核管法已經修正通過了，對於現在台電的用電情況，興達電廠的3、4號燃煤機組在現在這個時間點還繼續在運轉當中，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我請台電跟你說明一下。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：興達其實還沒有除役。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是它去年9月就到期，對不對？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：我們送審，現在在延審中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：它在延審中，可是基本上沒有被批准。當時有提到一個狀態，就是當我們的備載電量在8%以下的時候，它可以作為緊急使用，是不是這個情況？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，因為那是環評……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以興達電廠的3、4號燃煤機組，現在我們在質詢的這個時間點還在運作，就表示我們現在的備載容量已經在8%左右或者低於8%的情況，是這樣子嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是在之前，我們前幾天預估夜尖峰有可能不到8%，所以它必須運作。以機組的特性來說，運作之後不能一上來就馬上停，必須要適用機組的特性，讓它慢慢的、適度的去降載，所以它必須配合整個系統……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這個就像我前幾個禮拜問到大林5號機組……"],["主席：鄭委員，時間到了！"],["鄭委員正鈐：大林天然氣機組，也是已經在除役之後，現在變為緊急使用，然後台電也在使用。現在興達電廠3、4號燃煤機組，在現在這個時間點還繼續在用，已經到期了，你們說要延役，可是還沒有通過，就以緊急使用的方式，現在正在燒興達電廠3、4號燃煤機組。我在這邊要特別跟郭部長提到一個點……"],["主席：鄭委員，你的時間到了喔！"],["鄭委員正鈐：你再給我30秒鐘，我做個結論。"],["主席：你已經超過5分鐘了！"],["鄭委員正鈐：核管法已經過了，之前你有跟我提到，以最快的時間來說，如果行政部門配合，我們要去訂製新的燃料棒大概需要16到18個月，對不對？所以我在想我們目前對於這個部分要怎麼樣讓臺灣的電力能夠充足夠用，因為德國去年比我們提早一年變成非核家園，他們現在出現了很清楚的缺電跟電價高漲的情況，他們也開始表示不反對法國要在歐盟當中把核能提為再生能源的主張，所以德國的態度也在做很清楚的改變……"],["主席：鄭委員，你的時間到了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我們希望郭部長這邊針對核管法通過之後，經濟部要怎麼去做我們的能源政策，給本席一個很清楚的時間點的說明，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會參考大家的意見提出修正……"],["主席：部長，您再書面回復，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["主席：謝謝。","我還是要懇請各位委員稍微遵守一下時間，我都會給大家多幾分鐘，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：今天是幾分鐘？"],["主席：今天是5分鐘，他已經說了10分鐘，我都會讓你們說10分鐘，都是你們已經說了10分鐘之後，我才會站起來啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你……"],["主席：我自己說5分鐘而已喔！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我一早5點半就出門，來這裡只說5分鐘！"],["主席：今天的主席不是我，我是代理的。","請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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本席想要来跟您讨论这个生技产业它是我们策略产业5加2当中之一要去特别扶持的也期待它成为复国神山那当然我们现在正正是支持生意产业成为兆元产业在今年2025年生产会年会我们赖总统有讲了我们进入超高龄社会如何强化医疗跟科技"},{"start":33.142,"end":53.559,"text":"來推動生醫產業希望能夠成為半導體之後的下一座護國城山而賴總統本身就是醫生總統治國總統醫生護民所以他特別對於健康政策無論是在提高癌症篩檢率建立百億癌症新藥基金三高房子888計畫"},{"start":55.461,"end":72.328,"text":"或全民心理健康韌性甚至這個要大幅提高這個健保總額推動5年489億的健康台灣深耕其中我們的癌症篩檢率跟百億癌症新藥的基金就是跟精準醫療來高度的連結"},{"start":73.288,"end":99.181,"text":"好 那這個精準醫療對於生技產業 既然生技產業是五加二之一那到底他的這個機會跟挑戰在哪裡呢這個挑戰台灣 爬出一下台灣的生技產業從食品的化學產業一直走到生技的藥品開發一直到今天 今日的細胞治療跟精準醫療生物科技業可能會試射人的生命 所以發展新產品"},{"start":99.901,"end":104.064,"text":"跟藥品的時間冗長投資人期待獲利的時間也就長了而且同時也面臨法規資金人才技術的挑戰所以造成我國的生技業這個像你講的電子機器 放電子機器 什麼意思就是期待這個高獲利的同時卻害怕我這個失敗的高風險"},{"start":121.036,"end":149.551,"text":"好但是那機會在哪裡呢這個研發重點是在於從廣泛人群的暢銷藥是供應者藥商的導向現在因為基因科學的進步不同的個體在基因層面上的差別性可比被凸顯所以在精準醫療的風潮之下製藥業者已經從大規模的生產暢銷藥的模式逐漸改變為開發針對特定使用群或是特定個人的個體的"},{"start":150.932,"end":173.736,"text":"專用藥需求導向所以市場轉變從供應者導向到注重這個需求者導向也就是真的從我們的病人來出發了那這樣的話會有需要市場的變化需要什麼樣的這樣的專業來投入呢第一個基因和生物標記的研究第二個要加強檢測所以分子"},{"start":174.857,"end":185.065,"text":"檢測包括本席一直倡議的基因檢測第三基因地區第三醫院第四科技業者這四個因為市場的轉變他們不能單一的獨立運作必須緊密的結合"},{"start":190.97,"end":208.65,"text":"好那這樣的一個生技產業對於我病人需求者出發有什麼好處三個第一個檢驗時間變短第二個檢驗成本變低第三提供病患客製化的醫療服務什麼叫做檢驗時間變短我只要一個人體人類的一個基因定序"},{"start":209.651,"end":232.148,"text":"一天一個人我這樣的一個基因體的整個全身上下的定序過往要十年啊才能完成人類基因定序啊現在基因定序加上鑑別式的AI我只要一個人八小時我就可以完成了檢驗成本變低了從過去每個人次數十萬降到三到五萬甚至目前我一萬塊起跳含檢測跟報告"},{"start":233.929,"end":235.87,"text":"我們提供這個病患從病患的人體的基因定義訊當中去檢視了協助了醫生做什麼事可以從病人當中是不是有遺傳變異跟新陳代謝的關係或者識別染色體的疾病跟單基因疾病這種遺傳性或者是罕見疾病等"},{"start":254.423,"end":277.432,"text":"都可以來做一個更好的研判那當然也可以提供預防性的這個基因的檢測跟預防醫學的使用所以重上生技產業發展的跨領域從剛才的跨單位誰要去執行那這跨領域的專業預防醫學基因檢測人工智慧這還有後續的醫療跟藥物的匹配"},{"start":278.092,"end":304.25,"text":"好那國發會作為這個要輔導這樣的產業包括您現有的這個工具有什麼局限性呢生技產業屬於高風險高報酬的產業國內投資人對於這樣的投資高風險的產業他的專業知識是不足的所以傳統投資慣性是什麼還是要求他你一定要用有形資產但是生技產業他花了最多的錢就是在什麼研發"},{"start":305.491,"end":320.426,"text":"創新智慧財產權許可證這種的無形資產它的價值認定就困難了所以呢但是呢現在講到你的國發基金你的這個投資的工具的你剛才有講到做策略性的投資好我們就來看這個策略性的投資你相較民間的這個創投業者我只要投資成功你20%哇這已經創投界的明星了"},{"start":329.795,"end":345.207,"text":"就是說我思考案件有兩個成功 上市上櫃 八個失敗哇 這已經是創投界的高手了但是國發基金是什麼 要要求每一個都要完美啊每一個投資案都不能失敗 容錯率很低啊原來期待國發經濟做我們中小企業的天使現在變成是我們國發經濟是民間創造什麼 追隨者"},{"start":351.452,"end":365.521,"text":"導致你國發基金現在要策略主要目標福祉5加2多組新創跟中小型的企業都會被忽略掉所以生醫產業是具備高度的專業性跟法律規範就現行的這個工具生技產業無論在補助審查藥證核發投資輔導等都被特定的學法來壟斷而面臨跨領域跨學科跨專業的新型代的產業"},{"start":379.289,"end":382.033,"text":"我們就缺乏了跨領域、跨專業的審查機制這就是你們的窘況對於生技產業的無形資產的價值的認定以及你們現在審查機制缺乏跨領域、跨專業"},{"start":394.611,"end":417.184,"text":"那現在呢既然無形資產無法成為金融擔保品好那對於中小型的生技業者面臨的融資需求金融機構是不認列無形資產的但是生技產業多數的價值存在於研發創新智慧財產許可證這種無形的價值其實政府也有做一些事情啊他就真的是建立起無形資產的建價機制"},{"start":419.165,"end":445.898,"text":"允許這樣的無形資產列在企業的財報上但是當這生技業者要去融資的時候不好意思那是你財報是你的事情擔保品我是不認的所以還是要求這樣的生技業者不動產價要提供不動產的價值啦擔保品成數與流通數啦在償債能力啦或應收賬款等有形價值所以至此無形價值無形資產價值就是參考而已好我幾以農業就好"},{"start":447.939,"end":472.048,"text":"農業生技產的生技業者農金屬很棒喔他提出了一個叫農民組織及農企業產銷經營及研發創新代管做什麼事情補貼利息所以呢如果我這個農業金庫比如說這樣的金融機的單位他當然要承受受限風險農業金庫要求農業生技業者說還是提供不動產做抵押"},{"start":473.769,"end":478.753,"text":"而不接受農地產生技業者的研發專利無形資產來作為擔保可是他花最多精力 錢 時間就在研發專利所以這根本啊 繞道市場所以你這480幾億的先行希望呢 我們政府投資的部分所希望帶來的造業的產值那他這當中的民間的投資生技業者投入的時候你怎麼幫他解決問題啊 火災還是零啊所以這邊具體要求兩項"},{"start":502.551,"end":515.723,"text":"第一個請國發會邀集財政部經濟部農業部對於無薪資產的評價交易跟稅務的認定建立起完整的保證機制請公股銀行是對應財政部信保基金對應經濟部農業金庫對應農業部的調整"},{"start":520.647,"end":524.689,"text":"這些單位的對無形資產的保證機制調整他們而且建立起這樣的機制之後調整各部會的作業規範將專利及無形資產給予保證以利生技產業資金融通第二個你的審查機制請國發會協調衛福經濟交通國科會等相關單位在相關的補助審查核定你們現在都採外部學者擔任審查委員"},{"start":549.338,"end":558.666,"text":"但是本席認為不應該集中特定的學校跟學會我現在講的這個是可以說是犯全部了啦第一個參照經濟部技術師Aplus的科專審查計畫針對學者專家給予案件數的限制跟淪換"},{"start":564.511,"end":590.772,"text":"第二個 平衡北 中 南 東等優秀學者進行遴選建立透明客觀的審查機制以遭公信您簡單回應 副主委有關於委員希望我們扮演協調的角色我想我們會召集相關部會來不過我可能要跟委員報告其實我們國發基金我們目前除了投資向台積電半導體外我們績效最為著重的就是我們早期投資的生技產業"},{"start":591.633,"end":603.558,"text":"目前都已經有一些回收我們還要再更精進因為要不然480期一直在幹嘛的就是要再往更前端包括無形資產的部分你們要阻力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時46分）有請國發會。"],["主席：請國發會高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：本席想要來跟您討論生技產業，它是我們「5+2」策略產業之一要去特別扶持的，也期待它成為護國神山，當然現在政策是支持生醫產業成為兆元產業。在今年2025年生策會年會，賴總統也講了，我們已經進入超高齡社會，如何強化醫療跟科技來推動生醫產業，希望能夠成為半導體之後的下一座護國神山，而賴總統本身就是「醫生總統治國、總統醫生護民」，所以他特別對於健康政策，無論是提高癌症篩檢率，建立百億癌症新藥基金、三高防治888計畫或全民心理健康韌性，甚至要大幅提高健保總額，推動5年489億的健康臺灣深耕計畫，其中癌症篩檢率及百億癌症新藥基金就跟精準醫療來高度鏈結。","精準醫療對於生技產業來說，既然生技產業是「5+2」之一，到底它的機會跟挑戰在哪裡呢？爬梳一下臺灣的生技產業，從食品化學產業一直走到生技藥品開發，甚至今日的細胞治療跟精準醫療，生物科技業可能會事涉人的生命，所以發展新產品跟藥品的時間冗長，投資人期待獲利的時間也就長了，而且同時也面臨法規、資金、人才、技術的挑戰，所以造成我國的生技業，俗語說的「捏驚死、放驚飛」，什麼意思？就是期待高獲利的同時，卻害怕失敗的高風險。好，但是機會在哪裡呢？研發重點是在於從廣泛人群的暢銷藥（供應者藥商導向），現在因為基因科學的進步，不同個體在基因層面上的差別性可以被凸顯，所以在精準醫療的風潮之下，製藥業者已經從大規模的生產暢銷藥的模式，逐漸改變為開發針對特定使用群或是特定個人、個體的專用藥（需求導向），所以市場轉變從供應者導向到注重需求者導向，也就是真的從病人出發了，這樣的話，市場變化需要什麼樣的專業來投入呢？第一個，基因和生物標記的研究；第二個，要加強檢測，所以分子檢測，包括本席一直倡議的基因定序；第三個是醫院；第四個是科技業者，這四個因為市場的轉變，他們不能單一地獨立運作，必須緊密地結合。","好，那這樣的生技產業對於從病人需求者出發有什麼好處？有三個：第一個，檢驗時間變短；第二個，檢驗成本變低；第三，提供病患客製化的醫療服務。什麼叫做檢驗時間變短？一個人體、人類的基因定序，一整個人全身上下的基因體定序，過往要10年才能完成人類基因定序，現在基因定序加上鑑別式AI，一個人只要8小時就可以完成了。檢驗成本變低了，從過去每個人次數十萬降到3到5萬，甚至1萬塊起跳（含檢測跟報告）。我們提供病患從病患的人體基因定序當中去檢視、協助醫生做什麼事？可以從病人當中是不是有遺傳變異跟新陳代謝的關係或者識別染色體的疾病跟單基因疾病這種遺傳性或者是罕見疾病等，都可以來做更好的研判，當然也可以提供預防性的基因檢測跟預防醫學的使用。","所以綜上，生技產業發展的跨領域，從剛才的跨單位誰要去執行，這個跨領域的專業，預防醫學、基因檢測、人工智慧，還有後續的醫療跟藥物的匹配，國發會要輔導這樣的產業，包括你們現有的工具，有什麼侷限性？生技產業屬於高風險、高報酬的產業，國內投資人對於投資這樣的高風險產業的專業知識是不足的，所以傳統投資慣性是什麼？還是要求一定要用有形資產，但是生技產業花了最多的錢就是在什麼？研發、創新、智慧財產權、許可證，這種無形資產的價值認定就困難了。但是現在講到你的國發基金、你的投資工具，你剛才有講到策略性的投資，好，我們就來看策略性的投資，相較於民間的創投業者，我只要投資成功率20%，這已經是創投界的明星了，就是說10個案件中有2個成功上市、上櫃，8個失敗，這已經是創投界的高手了。但是國發基金是什麼？要求每一個都要完美，每一個投資案都不能失敗，容錯率很低，原來期待國發基金做我們中小企業的天使，現在變成國發基金是民間創投的追隨者，導致國發基金現在策略主要目標，也就是扶植5+2，多屬新創跟中小型的企業都會被忽略掉。所以生醫產業是具備高度的專業性跟法律規範，就現行的工具，生技產業無論在補助審查、藥證核發、投資輔導等，都被特定的學閥壟斷，而面臨跨領域、跨學科、跨專業的新型態產業，我們就缺乏了跨領域跟跨專業的審查機制，這就是你們的窘況，對於生技產業無形資產價值的認定，以及你們現在審查機制缺乏跨領域、跨專業。現在既然無形資產無法成為金融擔保品，好，對於中小型的生技業者面臨的融資需求，金融機構是不認列無形資產的，但是生技產業多數的價值存在於研發、創新、智慧財產、許可證，這種無形的價值其實政府也有做一些事情，它就真的是建立起無形資產的鑑價機制，允許這樣的無形資產列在企業的財報上。但是當生技業者要去融資的時候，不好意思，財報是你的事情，擔保品是不認的，所以還是要求這樣的生技業者要提供不動產的價值、擔保品成數與流通性、償債能力或應收帳款等有形價值，致使無形資產的價值就是參考而已。","好，我舉農業就好，農業的生技業者，農金署很棒，它提出了一個叫農民組織及農企業產銷經營及研發創新貸款，做什麼事情？補貼利息，所以農業金庫這樣的金融機構單位當然要承受授信風險，農業金庫要求農業生技業者還是提供不動產做抵押，而不接受農業生技業者的研發專利（無形資產）來作為擔保，可是他們花最多精力、錢、時間在研發專利，所以這根本繞到市場，所以你這四百八十幾億的先行，希望我們政府投資的部分所帶來兆億的產值，這當中民間投資的生技業者投入的時候，你怎麼幫他們解決問題？否則還是零啊！","所以這邊具體要求兩項：第一個，請國發會邀集財政部、經濟部、農業部，對於無形資產的評價、交易跟稅務認定建立起完整的保證機制，請公股銀行對應財政部，信保基金對應經濟部，農業金庫對應農業部，調整這些單位對於無形資產的保證機制，建立起這樣的機制之後也調整各部會的作業規範，將專利及無形資產給予保證，以利生技產業資金融通。第二個，你的審查機制，請國發會協調衛福、經濟、交通、國科會等相關單位，在相關的補助、審查、核定，你們現在都採外部學者擔任審查委員，但是本席認為不應該集中特定的學校跟學會，我現在講的這個可以說是泛全部了，第一個，參照經濟部技術司A+的科專審查計畫，針對學者專家給予案件數的限制跟輪換；第二個，平衡北、中、南、東等優秀學者進行遴選，建立透明、客觀的審查機制，以昭公信。您簡單回應，副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：有關於委員希望我們扮演協調的角色，我想我們會召集相關部會來，不過我可能也要跟委員報告，其實我們國發基金目前除了投資像台積電、半導體以外，我們績效最為卓著的就是我們早期投資的生技產業，目前都已經有一些回收……"],["林委員岱樺：好，那我們還要再更精進，因為要不然四百八十幾億是在幹嘛的？就是要再往更前端，包括無形資產的部分，你們要處理，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員，接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝 我們現在請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":31.613,"end":34.915,"text":"來 請郭部長委員長 這個517啊 非核家電以後 非核家園以後大家都在關心 我們的電成本增加了 電櫃跟變張的問題今天我要先給你看一個畫面 來 我們先看這個 這是"},{"start":61.883,"end":74.553,"text":"517啊 河山場二號機停了之後19號台中深夜12點的畫面中火深夜燒煤炭 煙霧瀰漫部長看了應該也是有些擔心的這個畫面真的是非常的驚悚現在開了第一槍出來抗議的是台中市的市長"},{"start":91.153,"end":110.798,"text":"盧秀燕 盧秀燕提出非常具體的事證她證明說 在飛河加鹽的前一天跟後一天就是前一天到後面一天 中火的發電量 全部都燒沒了喔中火是台灣最大的污染源 它燒沒"},{"start":112.062,"end":137.913,"text":"增加了50%他直接講了一共一本錢有10部這個基礎有一部在維修其他的9部基礎火力都全開這不是只有台中人受到影響喔在附近的中華南島 嘉義 昏林整個都受到影響了我看台電還一直認為沒有問題可是呢我們看下一張"},{"start":139.397,"end":162.603,"text":"台中市的環保局長跟盧修緣就拿出了非常具體的證據他講說中火啊他把時間點都給你看了中火10步這個燃煤基礎9步有上限其中有8步開的都是超過9成一直持續到20號的下午下面這個話最重要請大家一起來看看"},{"start":163.885,"end":180.515,"text":"你看 河山廠停機前16號中火 就是台灣最大的污染源他燒 用的這個煤炭一天3.23萬噸結果17號停了以後當天就跳上來了跳到4.03萬噸的煤炭18號稍微緩了一點點19號竟然攀升到4.64萬噸我給你算算看 這多恐怖的事情"},{"start":193.439,"end":219.135,"text":"一天喔就是非核家園以後光是一個中火一天多了1.4萬公噸的煤台中人跟整個中部地區的民眾用會發電健康受到多大的影響這是一個好 那我們再往南部看中部之外南部的議員跑出來講"},{"start":220.933,"end":249.463,"text":"說高雄啊新達三號跟四號的燃煤基礎你明明去年許可證明已經到齊了啊在飛河佳園貨的三天你又偷偷地擋開了高雄人何辜啊不只是中部的民眾用廢在發電南部也受到很大的影響我可以這樣講在民進黨推動飛河佳園之後"},{"start":251.107,"end":274.206,"text":"前臺灣空污越來越嚴重這是我們現在要正視的一個很嚴重的一個問題好 接下來我要談一個也是非常嚴重的問題除了污染增加了影響到我們人民的健康跟生命安全之外我們的電到底夠不夠呢賴清德總統你4月29號啊說我們的電夠啊"},{"start":280.455,"end":300.594,"text":"他還特別講他說全國民眾啊你可以上台電的電力即時資訊你去看一下我們的備載容量啊就是我們備用的一個電都在10%以上我們就上去看了結果發現5月4號就被打臉了"},{"start":303.345,"end":312.208,"text":"總統在4月29號接受財新的專訪說我們所有的電力備載容量電是過的都是10%以上不到五天不到五天就破功了那一天降到6.846.84多恐怖就從綠燈已經轉到黃燈了再下去6%以下就是橘燈"},{"start":329.758,"end":358.216,"text":"橘色的燈就是隨時有可能系統性的限電的我進一步給大家看一下總統的票票大家看一下這是台電的資料我幫他做一個統計這是每天的備產容量的熱量看下一張光是四月份總統票票的10%就有11次五月份到現在為止也有7次"},{"start":359.434,"end":387.833,"text":"在4月10號的時候 降到5.37一直沒有10%欸5.37代表什麼?已經進入了極端 極端叫做什麼?供電警戒 就是系統的限電限電的機率已經增加了再往下降 隨時就要找電了可能就要大停電了所以我剛剛一直一路講下來我們的污染增加了 空污增加了我們的電力"},{"start":390.075,"end":399.51,"text":"沒有像總統講的那麼充裕電力顯然是不夠的部長所以在空屋跟電力上面我們是要做一些想辦法解決問題"},{"start":404.821,"end":433.58,"text":"可能委員說明其實整個年度我們如果從這個2016到現在所有的空污的問題台電其實是一直在做降低的動作包括剛才提到的台中的電廠南美的用電量南美的用量我們整個南美的發電量也都在降那剛才委員有提到10%其實台電對外已經一再的強調那是在日尖峰 夜尖峰它必須要超過7%所以你剛才提到所以總統叫我們隨時上去看啊"},{"start":435.781,"end":459.974,"text":"是不是而且我講的不是只有晚上喔很多尖峰時間 特別是那個太陽一下山的時候老實講 現在幾乎是每天傍晚只要太陽一下山 那個太陽能一下子不見了我們這輩子容量就快速下降馬上喔 馬上6月份下季馬上就來了 對不對用電高峰就來了喔"},{"start":461.238,"end":485.061,"text":"所以政府有責任 你既然廢了核電第一個 空污不要再生效 因為我們廢發電 影響我們健康第二個不要讓我們大停電喔 電力一定是要過熱 總統講話已經被打臉了嘛對不對 信息非常清楚嘛空污的情況 台電一直都持續在降啦我先跟他講一下齁昨天啊 傍晚 你在說那個時間昨天傍晚啊"},{"start":487.61,"end":512.855,"text":"為6點就太陽大概差不多下山後沒多久6點50分一直到7點50分昨天的傍晚這個小時啊我們備載容量差不多只有7%所以再降下去就是已經從黃燈黃燈就是已經吃緊了啊綠燈就是總統講的綠燈就是供應充裕對不對到了10%以下就是供電已經是吃緊了"},{"start":514.755,"end":530.868,"text":"大部分時間在供應吃緊了到了下面就是集燈供電已經上有警戒了已經快到警戒的地方了昨天晚上有長達一個小時都只有7%是 都維持在夜間風7%以上我給大家看一下那個空屋的統計齁"},{"start":542.712,"end":563.957,"text":"這個是中心院的資料過去八年啊行政院跟政府一直講我們的空汙是這樣的可是呢過去八年我們的碳排增加了多少沒有少欸還反而增加了80萬噸這多嚴重的一個問題好"},{"start":571.516,"end":596.685,"text":"我們請部長跟台電注意三個事情第一個 廢核517之後 我們電價 電力的成本已經變貴了不要隨便漲價從內部趕快去作為改革第二個 空氣污染變嚴重了第三個 電力的穩定度已經下降了"},{"start":599.626,"end":610.107,"text":"請好好面對問題幫人民解決問題不要讓人民第一個用配發電而且電會是升高的謝謝好 謝謝張其凱委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時36分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早安。517非核家園以後，大家都在關心我們電的成本增加、變貴跟變髒的問題。今天我要先給你看一個畫面，我們先看這個畫面，這是517核三廠2號機停了之後，19號臺中深夜12點的畫面，中火深夜燒煤炭，煙霧瀰漫。部長看了應該也是有些擔心的，這個畫面真的是非常的驚悚。現在開了第一槍，出來抗議的是臺中市的市長盧秀燕，盧秀燕提出非常具體的事證，他證明在非核家園的前一天跟後一天，中火增加了50%燒煤的發電量，這全部都燒煤的，中火是臺灣最大的污染源，他直接講了，他說中火本來有10部機組，有1部在維修，其他的9部機組火力全開，這不是只有臺中人受到影響，在附近的彰化、南投、嘉義、雲林整個都受到影響，我看台電還一直認為沒有問題，可是臺中市環保局長跟盧秀燕就拿出了非常具體的證據，他把時間點都給你看了，中火10部的燃煤機組，9部有上線，其中有8部開的都是超過9成，一直持續到20號的下午。下面這句話最重要，請大家一起來看看，他說核三廠停機前，中火就是臺灣最大污染源，在16號它用的煤炭一天3.23萬噸，結果17號停了以後，當天就跳上來了，跳到4.03萬噸的煤炭，18號稍微緩和一點點，19號竟然攀升到4.64萬噸。部長，你算看看，這是多恐怖的事情，一天喔！進入非核家園以後，光是一個中火一天多了1.4萬公噸的煤，臺中人跟整個中部地區的民眾用肺發電，健康受到多大的影響，這是一點。我們再往南部看，中部之外，南部的議員跑出來講，高雄興達三號跟四號的燃煤機組，明明去年許可證明已經到期，在非核家園後的3天又偷偷打開了，高雄人何辜啊！不只是中部的民眾用肺在發電，南部也受到很大的影響，我們一定要講，在民進黨推動非核家園之後，全臺灣空污越來越嚴重，這是我們現在要正視的一個很嚴重的問題。","接下來，我要談一個也是非常嚴重的問題，除了污染增加了，影響到人民的健康跟生命安全之外，我們的電到底夠不夠呢？賴清德總統在4月29號說我們的電夠啊！他還特別講，全國民眾可以上台電的電力即時資訊去看一下我們的備轉容量，就是我們備用的電都在10%以上，我們就上去看了，結果發現5月4號就被打臉了。總統在4月29號接受財訊專訪稱我們所有的電力備轉容量是夠的，都是10%以上，不到5天就破功了，那一天降到6.84%，6.84%是多恐怖？從綠燈已經轉到黃燈，再下去6%以下就是橘燈，橘色的燈就是隨時有可能系統性的限電了。我進一步給大家看一下，總統的跳票，這是台電的資料，我幫大家做一個統計，這是每天備轉容量的量，光是4月份總統跳票的10%就有11次，5月份到現在為止也有7次，在4月10號的時候降到5.37%，不只沒有10%，5.37%代表什麼？已經進入了橘燈，橘燈叫作什麼？供電警戒！就是系統的限電，限電的機率已經增加了，再往下降，隨時就要找電了，可能就要大停電了！所以我剛剛一路講下來，我們的污染增加了、空污增加了，我們的電力沒有像總統講的那麼充裕，電力顯然是不夠的。部長，在空污跟電力上面，我們是不是要想辦法解決問題？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：跟委員說明，整個年度我們如果從2016年到現在所有的空污問題，台電其實一直在做降低的動作，包括剛才提到的台中電廠燃煤的用電量、燃煤的用量、整個燃煤的發電量也都在降，剛才委員提到的10%，其實台電對外已經一再強調，那是在日尖峰，夜尖峰必須要超過7%，所以你剛才提到……"],["張委員啓楷：所以總統叫我們隨時上去看啊，是不是？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：委員，隨時上去都可以看到……"],["張委員啓楷：而且我講的不是只有晚上，很多是尖峰時間，特別是太陽一下山的時候，老實講，現在幾乎是每天傍晚只要太陽一下山，太陽能一下子不見了，我們的備轉容量快速下降，馬上就6月份……"],["蔡副總經理志孟：委員，這本來就是再生能源的特性。"],["張委員啓楷：夏季馬上就來了，對不對？用電高峰就來了，所以政府有責任，既然你廢了核電，第一個，空污不要再增加，不要我們的肺發電，影響我們的健康；第二個，不要讓我們大停電，電力一定要夠，總統講話已經被打臉了，對不對？數據非常清楚嘛！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：跟委員報告，空污的情況，台電一直都持續在降啦！光是台中部分就在降了……"],["張委員啓楷：我先跟大家講一下，你剛才說的那個時間，昨天傍晚差不多太陽下山後沒多久，從6點50分一直到7點50分，昨天傍晚這1個小時，我們備轉容量差不多都只有7%，就是在下降，已經顯示黃燈，黃燈代表已經吃緊了，總統講的綠燈就是供應充裕，對不對？10%以下就已經是供電吃緊了，大部分時間在供應吃緊了，到了下面就是橘燈，供電已經開始警戒了、已經快到警戒的地方了，昨天晚上有長達一個小時都只有7%。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是！都維持在夜尖峰7%以上。"],["張委員啓楷：我給大家看一下空污的統計，這是中經院的資料，過去8年行政院跟政府一直講我們的空污是降的，可是過去8年我們的碳排增加多少？沒有少耶！反而還增加80萬噸，這是多嚴重的問題！我們請部長跟台電注意三個事情：第一個，517廢核之後，我們的電價、電力成本已經變貴了，不要隨便漲價，從內部趕快去進行改革；第二個，空氣污染變嚴重了；第三個，電力的穩定度已經下降了，請好好面對問題，幫人民解決問題，不要讓人民用肺發電，而且電費是升高的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的發言。","接下來我們請林岱樺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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所以我今天其實也問不到什麼東西啦這個副主委我想這樣啦我比較想要更深入了解一下就是到目前為止政府單位在主權基金這一塊的規劃進度假如可以的話是不是可以給本席一些基本的你們現在的一些規劃進度不屬於機密的部分可以讓委員們了解的部分是不是也可以讓我了解一下好嗎 好 謝謝"},{"start":373.646,"end":373.666,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時29分）謝謝主席，我請國發會。"],["主席：請國發會副主委。"],["邱委員議瑩：副主委早。本來我今天是想要問一下你們主委的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：前兩天總統在520就職週年的記者會上宣布了一個新的重大政策，就是未來臺灣要成立主權基金，由國發會統籌設計，將來要作為整合政府跟民間資金的國家級產業投資平臺。這是一個相當重大的經濟投資，副主委，我想知道國發會在這個部分參與的程度到哪裡？我們先看一下，其實主權基金已經不是一個新的概念，很多的國家都在做，最著名的應該就是新加坡的淡馬錫，所以我們稍微整理了一下，新加坡、南韓、挪威、沙烏地阿拉伯、中國，甚至美國，現在也開始在推動所謂的主權基金。臺灣的外匯存底高達5,828億美元，是全球第四，照理講，我們應該非常有能力跟機會去成立這樣的一個主權基金。未來在賴總統宣示之後，我比較想知道在這一件事情上面，到目前為止，國發會的規劃程度是到哪裡？主權基金跟我們現有的國發基金、產創會不會有互相扞格之處？要怎麼樣區分？我先簡單請教您這幾個問題。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝委員的詢問。我想我第一個要釐清的就是，總統有宣示要成立主權基金，可是主權基金的主責單位現在還是要等待行政院商議後再決定誰會是主責的單位，所以……"],["邱委員議瑩：但這個應該會找你們國發會做先期的討論，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，我要再說明一下，如果行政院指定是我們，我們當然也責無旁貸。我只能跟委員報告，的確在陳前院長的時候也有立委提到主權基金，我們也曾經與相關的部會召開過兩次的會議……"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道，上一屆的吳欣盈委員曾經提過這個概念，而且她也非常積極的在推動所謂的主權基金。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們的確在那兩次會議裡面有針對資金的來源、設立的目的等等進行討論，可是因為那兩次的會議裡面其實有很多部分還沒有一致的共識，不管是……"],["邱委員議瑩：你是說你們最近的討論裡頭嗎？所以在整個主權基金的設置……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是兩年前的那個討論。"],["邱委員議瑩：你說的是兩年前，那最近的討論呢？我比較想要知道，未來這個主權基金的設立，我們是不是會參考新加坡的模式，還是會參考南韓的模式，或者是以什麼樣的模式去進行？對於現有的國發基金的投資方式跟處理模式，主權基金跟國發基金未來你們要怎麼樣做一些區分？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其實主權基金的設置牽涉到幾個課題，第一個就如委員所說的，它設立的目的在哪裡？目前大概有一些是財務型的，就是它是要讓國家財富可以提升、增加的；一種是策略型的，完全是策略性的投資，要強化整個國家產業的競爭力等等；也有些是財務跟策略型mix的，每個國家會視其政經情勢設立，主權基金設置的目的是要採取哪一種型態，我覺得這個也值得我們討論。目前我們國發基金基本上是屬於策略型的投資，我們國發基金就是要扶植產業創新轉型，是根據產創條例。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果我們現在的國發基金是屬於比較策略型的投資的話，那未來的主權基金會不會比較偏向財務型或者是財務跟策略並進？比如說我們去投資美國，包括部長一個多禮拜前才剛從美國回來，我們有很多重大的投資，包括跟美國的採購、跟美國的投資方案，會不會也會在你們的主權基金裡頭去做一些相關的討論？未來整個主權基金的治理應該會用什麼樣的模式？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，我想總統已經宣布了，主權基金跟國發基金應該是並行的。"],["邱委員議瑩：主權基金跟國發基金會是並行？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以一個會比較主內、一個會比較主外？所謂的主內是說，國發基金大概會比較偏重在國內的市場，主權基金會比較偏重在國際的市場，會是做這樣比較簡單的區分嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我只能跟委員說，您說的這些我們都還在討論當中，還是要等行政院才能做定案。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，所以我今天其實也問不到什麼東西，副主委，我想這樣，我比較想要更深入了解，到目前為止政府單位在主權基金這一塊的規劃進度，假如可以的話，是不是可以給本席一些你們現在的基本規劃進度？不屬於機密的部分、可以讓委員們了解的部分，是不是也能夠讓我了解一下，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：可以。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，要拜託邱委員幫我代理一下。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩代）：現在請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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