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決議五 凍結300萬元74 決議六 凍結100萬元75 決議七 凍結500萬元76 決議八 化學物質管理業務向下委辦費凍結200萬元77 決議九 化學物質管理業務向下綜合規劃凍結100萬元第78案至81案均為化學物質管理業務向下評估管理78 決議10 凍結100萬元"},{"start":2389.258,"end":2391.279,"text":"79決議11凍結200萬元80決議12凍結100萬元81決議13凍結200萬元第82案至85案均為化學物質管理業務向下風險管控82決議14凍結200萬元83決議15凍結100萬元84決議16凍結100萬元85決議17凍結100萬元"},{"start":2414.285,"end":2425.109,"text":"86決議18同82案科目向下業務費凍結500萬元第87案至89案均為化學物質管理業務向下危害控制87決議19凍結100萬元88決議20凍結200萬元89決議21凍結100萬元90決議22化學物質管理業務向下危害控制之設備及投資凍結100萬元91決議1環境管理署凍結100萬元"},{"start":2442.874,"end":2468.417,"text":"九十二決議二一般行政向下環境管理基本行政工作維持之水電費凍結二十萬元九十三決議三環境管理基本行政工作維持之特別費凍結十分之一九十四決議四環境管理凍結三十八萬八千元九十五決議五環境管理向下綜合業務管理之建制執法智慧決策中心凍結五十萬元九十六決策六"},{"start":2469.277,"end":2476.579,"text":"環境管理向下綜合業務管理凍結500萬元97決議7同96案科目之違辦費凍結1%98決議8同96案科目之辦理查緝環保犯罪金還獎獎勵凍結1%99決議9同96案科目凍結100萬元100決議10環境管理向下區域治理凍結200萬元"},{"start":2496.204,"end":2511.77,"text":"101決議11環境管理向下區域治理凍結100萬元102決議12環境管理向下區域治理之國內旅費凍結二十分之一第103案至107案均為環境管理向下推動環境管理工作103決議13凍結100萬元104決議14凍結100萬元105決議15環境管理凍結500萬元"},{"start":2519.873,"end":2521.975,"text":"106決議16凍結500萬元107決議17凍結500萬元108決議18環境管理向下多元垃圾處理計劃第二期計劃凍結100萬元109決議19環境管理向下推動環境管理工作之海岸清潔維護計劃113年至116年凍結100萬元"},{"start":2541.993,"end":2546.855,"text":"第110案至114案均為環境管理向下美質環境推動計劃110決議20凍結200萬元111決議21凍結100萬元112決議22凍結500萬元113決議23凍結2000萬元114決議24凍結10萬元"},{"start":2561.4,"end":2563.742,"text":"第115案至120案均為美職環境推動計劃向下科目115決議25業務費凍結200萬元116決議26業務費凍結100萬元117決議27委辦費凍結100萬元118決議28委辦費凍結100萬元"},{"start":2580.738,"end":2589.063,"text":"119決議二十九一般事務費凍結一百萬元120決議三十獎補助費凍結一百萬元第121案至125案均為多元化垃圾處理計劃第二期計劃121決議三十一凍結二百萬元122決議三十二凍結一百萬元123決議三十三凍結一百萬元124決議三十四凍結二百萬元125決議三十五凍結五百萬元"},{"start":2607.492,"end":2612.814,"text":"126決議36科目同121案之業務費凍結100萬元127決議37科目同121案之獎補助費凍結1000萬元第128案之134案均為第18款第6項128決議1科技發展凍結10萬元129決議2科技發展向下環境研究科技發展之業務費凍結100萬元"},{"start":2631.42,"end":2631.58,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2658.325,"end":2682.778,"text":"好 謝謝有關於環境部主管預算凍結報告計100勝3那請問我有無異議好 那無異議我們先我有12項希望能夠保留12項第12案是不是不是 第一第一第二"},{"start":2686.344,"end":2690.246,"text":"11 11 37 3 7 51 51 57 57 58 58 59 59 62 62 86 86 93 93 127 127謝謝主席總共計12案好那我們一道討論事項在一併處理謝謝"},{"start":2711.734,"end":2728.385,"text":"我們的意思是這樣 如果說這個院會交下來是這個做報告事項對不對那有意義的等一下我們在有八案的討論事項完之後再來處理這個有意義的部分好 謝謝主席所以我們就針對第一二十一"},{"start":2729.386,"end":2755.547,"text":"三七五一五七五八五九六二八六九三一二七等這些案共計十二案先行保留,要討論事項處理完畢之後再來處理本案,其他均同意動之OK,好部長可以啦,還是你要先再溝通一下修不修"},{"start":2760.831,"end":2776.128,"text":"要不要?我就可以給你五分鐘好不好?好,你要尊重委員,當然一定要尊重委員,溝通也是尊重委員好,那我們接下來請本部長來做報告"},{"start":2795.901,"end":2809.105,"text":"主席、委員、各位朋友、各位委員我好本部來報告公務預算的解凍案的審查報告第一個我們剛剛有報告過我們114年度公務預算做成142項的預算凍結的決議其中有8項那也謝謝剛剛陳委員多了12項的審查"},{"start":2814.707,"end":2833.459,"text":"那其中134項交付櫃會處理的書面報告那以下呢我先針對這個我們過去討論的八項進行檢要的報告這八項裡面呢有一個第一頁是環境部的一個凍結預算報告其他就是我們市署一院的報告那第七案是我們大氣師第八案是資源循環署相關的這個凍結的這個報告"},{"start":2835.62,"end":2862.014,"text":"其中這個第一案呢是關於這個我們本部的這個預算其實本部的預算呢主要是用於這個委辦費相關的這個內容那這個跟各司署都有相關係所以這個目前呢總共動了一億四千多萬其實還是希望說可以競速的一個可以來解凍那第二案呢是關於我們氣候變遷署它的業務費的部分總共凍結了將近四千萬這個其實跟我們的淨零碳排是有很明確的關係我們也希望能夠顯著的來解凍"},{"start":2863.195,"end":2879.572,"text":"那第三案呢是我們資源循環署的這個業務費的部分總共凍結了1億將近1億4千萬左右這個跟我們的這個資源循環的相關的一個合作包含法規的調適那我們目前呢我們資源循環的推動法已經在行政院審核我們希望盡快"},{"start":2880.293,"end":2906.986,"text":"在這個月底或是到六月初的時候能夠儘速可以公告那這個第四案呢是化學署的這個業務費的部分那化學署呢跟我們國家化學的物質管理是有很明確的關係的那這個呢也希望委員可以支持因為這裡面呢總共有兩將近兩億五千萬左右的幅度這個比例是非常的高那第五案呢是關於我們的皇冠署的業務費因為皇冠署呢跟民眾整個日常生活都有很大的一個關係尤其是說我們"},{"start":2908.326,"end":2923.267,"text":"總共有每年都有470噸的家戶的這個垃圾這個也補助了很多的這個地方那我們也希望這個凍結的7000多萬能夠盡速的一個解凍那第六項是國環院那國環院是本部的智庫"},{"start":2924.048,"end":2947.666,"text":"那它這個針對我們這個相關的例如說PFAS或是各種的循環或淨零率生活等等的這個研究案是有很明確的關係的這總共有7500萬左右的一個幅度那第七案是大氣師這個是我們針對我們的這個空品監測站導入AI其實目前我們已經針對空品測站結合到AI可以針對一個個站也就是說每個民眾他自己在"},{"start":2948.246,"end":2965.464,"text":"他所在的地方如果遇到空污的時候自己都一個即時的一個告警像我是敏感體質現在我自己每天都在用這個東西避免我自己受到這個戶外的空污的一個危害那這個是已經有明顯的一個成效第八案呢是也是陳昭志委員所提出的關於我們的這個資源循環廢棄物的部分"},{"start":2966.865,"end":2989.925,"text":"能夠在再生能源法這個部分我們也跟能源署做了一個充分的一個討論不過因為目前我們是以廢棄物它本身的廢棄物能源是本地的可持續的能源之一當然這個部分裡面的一個內容經過我們的SRF的白皮書裡面都有明確的一個解釋做一個定義委員所關係的就是大躍興重金屬的污染"},{"start":2990.325,"end":3012.139,"text":"我們在這個報告書裡面都有強化這個法規的一個調查所以這個部分其實是沒有問題的在凍結數兩百萬那我們其他的部分呢總共一百三十四案裡面這個就含在各個數我就不特別細說那以上呢是我們僅就本部一百一十四年度的公共預算凍結案進行檢要的報告也請委員能夠鼎力支持統一凍資相關的預算以利政策業務的執行 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":3018.666,"end":3026.588,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始審討 做以下宣告本會委員審討時間6.5分鐘 列席委員4.1分鐘 實驗辦截止 歡迎登記委員如果有書面質詢 請於商會前提出 預期不受理"},{"start":3045.846,"end":3051.637,"text":"暫定10點半休息10分鐘本是會議不處理歷史提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員來做發言謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":3062.709,"end":3081.527,"text":"陳委員好部長好 您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場"},{"start":3088.613,"end":3103.365,"text":"然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐"},{"start":3104.205,"end":3108.348,"text":"那不管說這個公民團體他們意見後來有沒有被接納但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法"},{"start":3127.082,"end":3140.045,"text":"那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎 部長"},{"start":3147.227,"end":3150.371,"text":"好 報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放"},{"start":3162.324,"end":3179.335,"text":"那我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來"},{"start":3180.376,"end":3184.558,"text":"部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他沒有按照規定前一週的資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六章核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決"},{"start":3208.689,"end":3224.936,"text":"所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛"},{"start":3225.797,"end":3240.314,"text":"其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是環境委員建議的真的是參與啦"},{"start":3242.617,"end":3264.299,"text":"他不是說關在一個房間然後這個時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在好那天他非常的偏頗好那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本市會議旁聽發言維持五位民眾101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為"},{"start":3265.82,"end":3282.461,"text":"環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是然後限制公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到會議現場"},{"start":3283.843,"end":3294.458,"text":"那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與"},{"start":3299.584,"end":3322.531,"text":"還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜"},{"start":3323.251,"end":3328.096,"text":"事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你說發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那些照樣碾壓民意是7比0過啊部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟ChatGPT"},{"start":3341.932,"end":3348.698,"text":"因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHAT GPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHAT GPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHAT GPT"},{"start":3362.611,"end":3366.032,"text":"我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長 部長第一個確定GP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權 討論權 違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程"},{"start":3390.976,"end":3395.778,"text":"如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案"},{"start":3408.902,"end":3424.754,"text":"也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHAT GPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長"},{"start":3425.635,"end":3448.964,"text":"您喜歡的ChanceGPD這樣回答您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個是有lag的情況這個已經有改善了"},{"start":3449.344,"end":3463.653,"text":"那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上"},{"start":3469.877,"end":3491.473,"text":"參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式"},{"start":3493.695,"end":3506.578,"text":"那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者這一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":3515,"end":3533.268,"text":"我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎"},{"start":3533.888,"end":3542.576,"text":"如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的那個解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史"},{"start":3556.83,"end":3574.886,"text":"精神上您願意嘛 那我們看技術上怎麼來克服你看大概這裡面有好多個委員 下一張你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你 這基本原則 環評委員在會議中提出的意見是否應該如實記錄跟確認 這個原則對嗎"},{"start":3578.349,"end":3601.342,"text":"對 這個已經都有確認 都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議 發言記錄還沒有全數確認時 主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診 然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員 這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢 那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議"},{"start":3603.083,"end":3626.224,"text":"莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅色切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊40多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本志氣氣這些都是委員講的話耶"},{"start":3628.705,"end":3640.388,"text":"顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊"},{"start":3648.479,"end":3667.194,"text":"那怎麼辦呢 你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次"},{"start":3667.674,"end":3672.176,"text":"這環評會議不是橡皮圖當 不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲 我就是要過 目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未經確認之處你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎"},{"start":3693.266,"end":3705.193,"text":"那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場"},{"start":3714.318,"end":3723.236,"text":"那你當然都回答到但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料"},{"start":3724.848,"end":3749.919,"text":"這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個內施會我來檢討一下其實這個其實一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的立言但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權是基本啦"},{"start":3751.34,"end":3777.816,"text":"參與才是真正的民主我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會了解這些事情的機會"},{"start":3780.037,"end":3780.998,"text":"主席有請彭部長林委員好部長早"},{"start":3805.953,"end":3821.768,"text":"今天想針對於之前我提出預算跟環境部有關的來跟部長討論一下那部長去年我就問過了就是說限塑政策到底要怎麼推特別是針對小吃攤 菜市場"},{"start":3822.629,"end":3850.362,"text":"早餐店和餐廳這四大場域有沒有清楚的期程跟策略結果你們的解凍報告寫說112年比91年減碩大概減量了50%可是針對這四大場域最難推的場域到114年還只是停留在所謂自辦計畫和寫指引的階段你自己最近公開也說2025年的目標有難度那我知道從2018年擴大"},{"start":3852.423,"end":3870.211,"text":"現用到14類的業者已經事實上是很重要的進程但現在剩下的就是那個最難推的商家類型所以我想問這些事辦計畫真的能夠撐到2030年能達標嗎有沒有更積極的做法因為我翻遍你們的報告沒有看到"},{"start":3871.174,"end":3900.776,"text":"對 報告委員因為其實我自己也都是上街買菜啦那我自己會帶環保袋可是我看到像我這樣做的可能一百個只有一兩個所以這個國人的慣性的動力真的要改變一定要有一個優異的機制那我也觀察到各縣市環保局都也協助配合我們在做但是呢就是辦的那天會這樣做過了幾天大家都忘記了所以我們跟我們循環署一直在想要用新的方法能夠來解決但是我們現在還沒有一個完全的定案"},{"start":3900.976,"end":3918.762,"text":"對 可是怎麼會還在是因為我剛剛不斷講這樣可是購物袋的現用跟收費政策其實台灣民眾都已經也是習慣了因為很多份的調查都顯示差不多結果將近八成的人知道買東西要自備購物袋不知道要"},{"start":3919.352,"end":3941.525,"text":"不然就要自己付錢來買袋子那6成5的民眾是支持2030年全面限售更有超過8成6的民眾是認為說重複使用塑膠袋它事實上是可以做得到的所以這些數據都說明說限售政策的基礎其實在民眾的生活當中已經是穩固那我覺得這也是政策推動的最強的後盾"},{"start":3942.966,"end":3962.523,"text":"所以民眾已知然後我們攤商的抗拒也不是很嚴重他給的意見是不送最好因為塑膠袋的成本越來越貴了可是他還是有他們一些問題他兩大困境是不敢不送因為隔壁的商家都在送或者是裝袋很麻煩要跟客人拿袋子來裝袋"},{"start":3963.644,"end":3989.172,"text":"那既然有這兩大困難的話那就是希望民眾已知然後攤商有一些困難所以是不是應該可以政策上去考慮可不可以排定場域去推動有一個順序然後可是這個場域推動的時候要一致性譬如蔡市長要一致性否則的話就像攤商講的隔壁再送我沒有送那我就不對了"},{"start":3990.12,"end":4007.439,"text":"那可能我的生意會減弱還有請聽他們的需求去解決問題還要增加經濟誘因剛剛部長也提到說要有一些經濟誘因啊可能使得他們會願意去做來降低我們的攤商的成本然後明確制定策略跟目標所以我要請環境部"},{"start":4009.561,"end":4035.458,"text":"事實上兩個月內是不是可以知道你們有沒有更積極的方案不管是分場域分階段可能要有個期程才讓人家知道說這四大場域接下來你會怎麼去所以要清楚列出時程跟規劃跟成效目標所以部長這部分能不能做到有沒有什麼困難報告委員其實最惠里路就是市場那這個市場其實有一些市場有自發性的做例如說台北市應該是東門市場"},{"start":4037.259,"end":4056.35,"text":"南門還是東南門市場他們就是做的有自發性去做這個事但是其他的市場呢就跟如同委員說的就是別人都送啊我就不送啊所以大家都就變成說這個東西只有在某一天推廣的時候會這樣是所以我說有沒有辦法去分你的這個場域之後然後能夠有些期程規劃"},{"start":4057.45,"end":4085.412,"text":"或者2030年目標是很難達成的對 報告委員我們現在有一個新的做法就是說我們先找一個可能大家都會去的同溫層例如說花市大家都會去買花也願意去做的然後我們會有一些新的做法再提出來那現在正在演繹當中那這個大概在一兩個月內就會再推出來那我們希望造成一個示範的亮點讓大家能夠真的去省思這個問題所以部長兩個月內可不可以給我知道這些可以可以 差不多可是剛剛提到線索"},{"start":4086.112,"end":4103.842,"text":"真的事實上14類事實上是被你們要求這14類業者要配合限量使用就整體的用量缺反而事實上是成長這不代表就政策沒有抓到關鍵嗎我舉兩個例子第一個我們的宅配的包裝袋跟氣泡袋"},{"start":4104.383,"end":4123.616,"text":"疫情後事實上這種消費型態改變跟用量暴增你們推出的環保網購的指引2.0還有也說是2026年要達成減量的目標真的能做到嗎第二是PVC的包裝袋雖然便宜透明適合我們的商品展示跟使用但含氫鈾"},{"start":4125.177,"end":4137.73,"text":"含那個塑化劑你們雖然在禁止在使用在食品的包裝可是其他的用途有管制嗎是不是有落實呢這些袋子最後還是落在台灣的土地上所以想問部長你怎麼看塑膠袋內銷量的上升這個趨勢這個數字你們怎麼拿來"},{"start":4145.018,"end":4169.157,"text":"評估整體的那個減售的政策針對這兩個案例部長能不能在有效期限內去達標跟委員報告那這邊的內銷量他會包括說我們的網購或說有些東西他包裝或外銷的啦那我想除了我們剛剛的市場之外其實像科技業或者我們賣場的售要帶我們都一起會提出來一些減量的措施"},{"start":4169.737,"end":4187.218,"text":"對 可是我們內銷量是成長的這件事情有沒有辦法因為如果要達到2030年的話去做這樣子的一個減量根本看起來很難達標因為整體剛剛14類已經事實上是有被先用可是問題是你內銷的塑膠的製品的話事實上是成長的"},{"start":4189.11,"end":4208.553,"text":"那這邊因為會牽扯到說民眾的生活習慣我們會以一個分捐的方式先以獎勵那以這個指引的方式譬如說現在除了我們的刷袋或者是免疫餐具之外其實還有賣場的這個它包裝也很多或者網購包裝那因為網購包裝推動這個循環袋箱需要有一些時間還有它現在的成本是比較高的那這邊我們會來這個逐步來推動再麻煩"},{"start":4219.281,"end":4242.86,"text":"環境部再來就是提到那個塑膠袋的用量那我們現在要問的是全球的那個塑膠公約強調有效回收循環再利用可是今天時間有些人不談後端處理所以想問我們的政策真的有幫民眾做好分類嗎台灣有九成以上的民眾都說自己有在做垃圾分類可是塑膠現在大部分都丟在同一類要細分"},{"start":4244.941,"end":4274.21,"text":"要那個細分類的時候大家都常常搞不清楚所以像單一材質的可以回收複合材質不行的這種規則呢有多少人可以判斷的出來啦你們雖然都有推社區公益大廈回收的示範計畫可是大部分都是靠管委會只是公告或現場回收員的那個人員的一些糾正可是塑膠材質這麼多標示不清楚大家都覺得有心可是又沒有辦法所以是不是可以就是"},{"start":4274.81,"end":4291.372,"text":"就想問是說現在真的有落實這樣子的一個前頭源頭管理廠商能夠標示清楚然後呢讓民眾能夠有接受到你們的訊息真的讓民眾知道這些怎麼去做分類這樣能夠做到正確分類"},{"start":4293.595,"end":4321.91,"text":"各位報告那民眾他要丟出這些塑膠的製品有幾種方式啊那像如果是說他是給這個回收車因為他家裡的空間不多所以他只能夠分說容器類一大類然後讓經驗隊去分類但是他也可以到賣場或者說我們有些現在有個自動回收機那那個部分就可以比較對塑膠有些比較好的分類方式可是還是希望環境部可以加強宣導真的很多人事實上是不太理解"},{"start":4322.435,"end":4346.324,"text":"這一塊這麼細分類只是大分類而已我們有看到一些國外做得好他分類的項目多到很多啦但是我們國人齁其實要往下走下一步的確分類的方式跟他的這個定義我們的確有增進的空間那這個我們會來做請文進部再好好的想一想怎麼讓民眾得到這樣的一個訊息那最後就是想問的是因為這也是在預算的時候"},{"start":4346.924,"end":4366.861,"text":"我就有提出來 以桃園省道為例來提醒過機車的噪音問題非常嚴重 影響到民眾的安寧這一年來 環境部推動排氣管的認證制度也是助地方加強我們的聲音的照相執法這部分非常值得肯認可是後續還是有幾個問題要改善第一個 很多人預約排檢就是我要預約檢驗卻排不到"},{"start":4373.687,"end":4401.907,"text":"那車照樣在路上跑地方環保局只能先不罰結果還是守法的民眾事實上是反而吃虧第二聲音照相的設置地點好像目前都集中在飆車族出沒的區域可是民眾真正投訴的熱點呢反而沒有裝設所以現在罰單上還是沒有去負那個分貝數的數據的爭議這樣會影響到整體的公信力制度的公信力所以是不是我考"},{"start":4402.327,"end":4417.109,"text":"我覺得建議兩項就是擴充我們的檢驗的量能也應該設計回檢的那個機制讓民眾知道不是通過一次我們認證就可以永久改裝使用第二事實上是公開我們設"},{"start":4418.631,"end":4446.998,"text":"點的邏輯也就是加強佈建設備要裝在真正民院的地方而不是在飆車組的地方所以請問部長這些建議是不是可以落實可以那這個因為那個一個站也是要100多萬所以我們也要爭取預算能夠來協助地方能夠多設置一點那委員因為過去都是飆車組的熱點那委員說的這個民眾老民的點因為最近我們也收到一些民眾他說那個點不是他生活的這個點是 老遠我們"},{"start":4447.498,"end":4468.395,"text":"任養的區域他們還是在跟我反映說去年已經好預算也希望你們要去改善這部分可是好像似乎事實上是還是沒有達到沒有解決他們的問題他們晚上睡覺的時候還是遭受到很大的痛苦這預算我們會努力去爭取啦最後就還是期待就是說線索的這些場域不要再停留在事半的階段"},{"start":4468.755,"end":4492.475,"text":"還有非管制塑膠袋的不能用越多因為我們內銷量是在成長所以這個請一個月內是不是可以提出你們現在的具體方案好那最後噪音這一塊的話希望守法的人能夠不要吃虧好 以上謝謝部長謝謝委員建議 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長部長我要提醒你 你剛剛講那些話很恐怖喔"},{"start":4493.973,"end":4518.027,"text":"你說你有買菜的習慣,也有自備環保袋的習慣,那你到市場看的時候,有這個習慣一百個才一兩個?你確定?你是一年買一次菜,還是一個月買?一個月一兩次那可能多看幾次,應該台灣人使用環保袋不會一百個,只有一兩個在使用?就不用塑膠袋"},{"start":4519.622,"end":4528.234,"text":"對啦,但是你說那個比例才一兩個會使用環保袋這顯然這個政策就已經不用塑膠袋的很少"},{"start":4531.001,"end":4548.592,"text":"我覺得是很多,可能有些場域真的是陳土部長所講,但是一般台灣國人使用環保袋的比例應該是高的,不會是低的就我的理解啦,不好意思,因為我學年沒去買菜,我也去買東西,我也會自備環保袋啦,不好意思因為你補充說100,這麼多你用,這是進球的夭折啊,對不起,陳委員抱歉抱歉"},{"start":4564.051,"end":4566.312,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝委員還有請部長請部長陳委員好"},{"start":4572.762,"end":4597.453,"text":"部長 上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒 燒到95%剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮 陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後"},{"start":4598.866,"end":4624.827,"text":"5月22 5月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢"},{"start":4626.637,"end":4647.705,"text":"報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書"},{"start":4648.585,"end":4677.444,"text":"其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比"},{"start":4678.365,"end":4705.833,"text":"根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題"},{"start":4706.693,"end":4717.35,"text":"但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用"},{"start":4718.699,"end":4739.998,"text":"說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據"},{"start":4741.839,"end":4760.105,"text":"剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQ Air的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名 韓國59香港63 菲律賓74新加坡94 俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污"},{"start":4761.704,"end":4788.474,"text":"好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物 氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40% 流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5"},{"start":4789.915,"end":4803.576,"text":"報告委員第一個IQ Air它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除"},{"start":4804.918,"end":4824.976,"text":"像日本韓國先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器對不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本務院的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值好"},{"start":4826.377,"end":4848.284,"text":"第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5"},{"start":4850.86,"end":4877.722,"text":"大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所謂的改變"},{"start":4878.778,"end":4898.911,"text":"我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣"},{"start":4899.531,"end":4920.496,"text":"是 所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的 可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析"},{"start":4921.476,"end":4927.441,"text":"他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來"},{"start":4939.11,"end":4944.374,"text":"所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的Premature Death這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露"},{"start":4961.888,"end":4978.7,"text":"這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經"},{"start":4982.662,"end":4998.244,"text":"偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊"},{"start":4999.345,"end":5022.198,"text":"報告委員我是講說我們空污的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空污改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實"},{"start":5023.098,"end":5043.431,"text":"可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧"},{"start":5044.271,"end":5064.855,"text":"單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有 基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘 它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛 增加慢性咽喉炎"},{"start":5070.405,"end":5099.217,"text":"其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定其實我們也沒有希望你"},{"start":5099.697,"end":5125.666,"text":"特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一"},{"start":5126.266,"end":5143.454,"text":"可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲"},{"start":5152.078,"end":5174.163,"text":"是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊"},{"start":5175.183,"end":5181.488,"text":"我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民"},{"start":5202.145,"end":5230.091,"text":"所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生"},{"start":5230.931,"end":5251.068,"text":"我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是委員PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標好"},{"start":5251.829,"end":5270.639,"text":"最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸"},{"start":5274.221,"end":5281.186,"text":"可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者"},{"start":5289.972,"end":5304.86,"text":"那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎"},{"start":5308.122,"end":5334.971,"text":"對 包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝 那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":5336.923,"end":5351.743,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接下來請邱政軍委員來做選擇主席好 我們請彭部長來 請彭部長"},{"start":5356.229,"end":5384.866,"text":"邱委員好部長我想請教一下我們行政院的總預算編給地方的一般性補助款那總額當然是2501億那這個項目在立法院當然是沒有完全沒有刪除但是現在我們行政院違法砍了地方的一般性補助款高達27%我就想請問一下部長那這個部分對我們地方上對環境部推動的政策會不會影響"},{"start":5386.768,"end":5404.765,"text":"本部是目前沒有太大的影響啦但是明年財劃法修正之後其實我們部的預算可能會有一些會減少我也擔心會受到一些影響我們先不講財劃法先講一般性補助款那我認為這個部分你認為對我們地方在執行環境部的業務的時候不會影響嗎"},{"start":5405.425,"end":5434.274,"text":"今年不影響 就今年我們不補助給地方的我們會如期把它完成所以你們是 環境部這部分是沒有動就對了對對對 但是27%你們沒有去我們沒有 我們沒有你們沒有去刪減嘛對對對那對 因為我們看到這樣子的話我擔心地方的這些環境我們在推動那些政策啊 都會受到影響那如果說這樣子是沒有 沒有是最好那當然我相信啊 就是我們的部長啊"},{"start":5435.134,"end":5459.841,"text":"在這樣的一個議題之下能夠堅持這個是非常棒的因為就像我們苗栗的焚化爐一樣你當初的是BOT案BOT案然後後來如果這個受到影響的話那勢必會影響到我們焚化爐的運作那可能會影響到其他縣市垃圾的處理那當然部長能夠這樣子我們非常的欣慰謝謝委員"},{"start":5461.061,"end":5480.928,"text":"那當然我再請教一下剛剛我們清輝委員講的你說呼籲要盡量少用廢發電那鯉魚市當然是移動污染源的PM2.5比火力發電還要高那我要說我們交通污染當然是很嚴重但不然你沒辦法承認嘛那目前台灣的能源結構當中"},{"start":5482.669,"end":5510.625,"text":"火力發電佔比是一直都是超過8成那在非核家園的第一天高達92%那因為火力發電的空污排放量非常大而且是集中的再加上地形的關係不容易散去那一些研究資料像國建署還有台大公衛支都顯示火力發電廠附近的居民的氣喘肺癌心肺疾病風險明顯提高"},{"start":5511.604,"end":5526.473,"text":"那用廢發電這個詞在中南部受污染的民眾是他是真實的感受啦那我想政府的能源政策下的悲劇也是人民對空污覺得無力的控訴但部長你一直要用這個移動污染源來幫火力發電漂白"},{"start":5527.333,"end":5543.259,"text":"是不是能源政策上的佈局加上政治的壓力所以你要這樣出來背書啊包委員沒有啦因為我們其實花了很多時間半年做了一個這個空品白皮書那其實我們也跟很多專家學者討論其實我們發現台灣的例如說造成PM2.5的污染源"},{"start":5544.079,"end":5563.601,"text":"有很多剛剛講的固定汙染源固定汙染源包含工廠還有發電業那移動汙染源我們的汽機車或是老舊的車子它也會排放很多的廢氣或是說剛高速公路旁邊等等或是說我們家裡面生活的這個益善源例如說我們家裡面有時候煮菜或是生活上面的習慣也會造成PM2.5其實我們發現為什麼我們"},{"start":5565.143,"end":5581.599,"text":"空污減量可是我們的癌症的篩的比例還持續的上升這一定有一些落差的存在所以我們是希望說能夠從民眾健康的角度來把空污的問題解決所以就是不是只有一個固定污染源的問題還有其他各種的污染源我們都要一起來檢討"},{"start":5582.608,"end":5609.041,"text":"那目前現在最大宗看起來就是火力發電嗎其實它有很多啦不見得是只有火力發電還有別的那火力發電算大嗎火力發電它是其中之一但不是最大的例如說我們的移動最大你認為是汽車移動污染源的部分當然那個是加起來多因為有的是一根比較多那我們現在是不是碰到問題一個我們就要解決一個嘛對不對所以部長您支持這個火力發電繼續一直持續還是說繼續擴大"},{"start":5610.902,"end":5635.08,"text":"還是要縮減基本上把燃煤能夠盡量的減少這是最好的那因為這個那目前我們有沒有什麼計畫這個是屬於台電他個規劃那目前我們國家的近年的規劃在2030年的時候我們的這個燃煤大概只剩下我記得是9%左右能夠從現在的大概是在2030年就希望足夠的減少那剩下幾年現在是剩下不再5年還要5年對對對那5年內你要做什麼"},{"start":5635.98,"end":5664.682,"text":"五年內裡面第一個是再生能源照經濟部能源署的規劃再生能源在2030年希望可以到30%那這個部分就可以用你認為達得到嗎如果現在離岸風電那個方面如果能夠起來的話就有機會但是我必須說台灣的各種能源都面臨到還蠻大的挑戰五年之內你相信我都不太相信對不對這個要努力啦因為每個國家都面臨到能源轉型的問題"},{"start":5665.982,"end":5695.222,"text":"你是少數在政府體系當中還是秉持專業立場的部會首長這點我要跟你肯定當然對外界也對你有比較高的期待所以我希望你不要用就是就是希望說好好的做事情請你繼續堅守你環境部的專業底線該做的 該講的我希望你還是要講因為我發現我們台灣現在的問題我們其實最大的污染源是來自於行政院我希望你環境部不要被污染"},{"start":5699.183,"end":5722.71,"text":"那另外根據環境部的統計營建工程的噪音成型比例高達兩成那工地施工的噪音會造成民眾生活中很大的一個困擾尤其是連續性的有時候又是尖銳的有時候因為它的頻率不是很正常的那這樣會讓人家很煩嘛那環境部目前還在討論要把這個聲音照相"},{"start":5723.63,"end":5739.142,"text":"技術用於這個營建工程噪音監測的階段那這個要怎麼做包委員這個我們明天早上明天會有一個研討會就是我們請到像日本日本其實有些工地其實他已經用到比較低噪音也低空汙的方式來進行"},{"start":5740.043,"end":5769.023,"text":"那台灣其實現在我必須坦承因為我以前也住在很多都更的房偏齁那真的是產生活品質非常非常的差啦那我們希望能夠藉由國際的案例能夠能夠重新再定義出台灣有沒有因為那個我們希望營建的這個營造業者他能夠採聚用這種國外比較好的一個先進的方式低噪音或是低空汙的方式來進行所以我們還在找一些新的方式來進行所以我們明天會有一個研討會就來討論這個意思那這部分有沒有這個具體的一個時程表"},{"start":5769.663,"end":5786.77,"text":"目前我們是希望能夠第一個是先找到國際有什麼好的案例然後我們會開始獎勵獎勵例如說好的我們給他獎勵給他認證那慢慢的就會產生出這種好的就可以願意做的更多日本當然他現在的還有一些國家的先進經驗對這部分當然有已經有做規範"},{"start":5789.671,"end":5810.951,"text":"那當然我也贊同這個做法就是說在這個明天公聽會在這個事情還沒有確定之前我們有沒有什麼比較具體的做法來去減少這樣的一個這個噪音的發生如果說真的是公因為我們目前工地如果要整個都更要拆除其實用的重機具其實"},{"start":5812.172,"end":5834.733,"text":"目前都是還蠻老舊的而且那個沒有辦法解決而且那我們現在只能用在這種只能在上班時間去處理晚上影響到民眾生活作息的就不能夠去處理這個有很明確的嚴格的一個規範那至於說他能不能真的在減量用更好的機具低污染的機具因為有些那個重機具他其實都是燒柴油的其實對附近的空氣污染也是蠻嚴重的"},{"start":5835.854,"end":5855.698,"text":"好,那部長希望這個事情盡快啦好,我會來錄時間表好,謝謝部長好,謝謝邱委員,謝謝部長那委員會在這邊做一下宣告,謝謝我們等蘇清泉、莊委選擇結束之後休息十分鐘接下來請王育美委員來做選擇謝謝莊委,我們請部長來,請部長"},{"start":5868.337,"end":5882.887,"text":"王委員好部長好部長我想請教你有沒有去過瑞士訪問有有是不是有那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何非常好非常好那你知不知道他們的電力結構對知道核能佔比例很高"},{"start":5883.51,"end":5909.873,"text":"很高嘛對不對所以我今天要跟你討論的就是為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好那台灣我們其實是在退步當中我必須講退步兩個字我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起去出席WHA相關的會議訪問瑞士的確跟你的感受一樣到了瑞士之後第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新那它空氣非常清新是來自於什麼"},{"start":5910.533,"end":5927.564,"text":"它是一個低碳發電的國家所謂的低碳它的水力佔了它的五成它的核能佔了三分之一所以它總共這些低碳佔比就已經超過八成了它的燃煤大概只有兩到三趴這種火力的那你看看我們台灣我們台灣現在連廚藝的機組都可以重新運轉我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候坦白講蠻難過的"},{"start":5939.5,"end":5965.947,"text":"因為賴總統告訴大家說我們不缺點我們的備轉容量率呢都十幾趴他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲結果跟事實完全不一樣我們的事情是人家一問說新達電廠為什麼要運轉因為電不夠啊因為我們的備轉容量率小於6趴小於8趴所以就要啟用"},{"start":5967.813,"end":5996.392,"text":"我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢一個還可以繼續研議的核三廠二號機他就跟瑞士他們能源一樣這一個核能他其實是低碳的結果你不用硬是要除液然後你高汙染的這一個興達電廠包括大嶺電廠都是當地高雄居民已經抗議所以不發給他執照"},{"start":5997.873,"end":6007.605,"text":"然後有的是已經除役你偏偏要運轉這是什麼能源政策啊部長我覺得這個經濟部跟總統府在害你啊他們的這個錯誤的政策讓你的減碳的任務跟目標完全不可能達到"},{"start":6017.758,"end":6032.195,"text":"從2016年到現在我們因為燃煤增加的碳排已經高達80萬噸了請問你環境部再怎麼努力有一方的政策不斷在增加你的碳排然後你在國際承諾你要減碳這完全是背道而駛的方案"},{"start":6037.601,"end":6059.655,"text":"這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢在這件事情上我認為部長你要維持在你專業跟中立的立場因為媒體問你你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話然後就說我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二我們這個火力不是唯一的污染源 大家都知道"},{"start":6060.595,"end":6080.477,"text":"但是這件事情 我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你 你說這件事情它合法 好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長 這件事情縱然他說它合法 它在合理的這個排放 這個可以運轉的時數但是它合理嗎 合情嗎"},{"start":6082.506,"end":6107.295,"text":"一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核傾你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組"},{"start":6108.855,"end":6134.566,"text":"還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為"},{"start":6136.207,"end":6150.224,"text":"所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼"},{"start":6157.563,"end":6178.869,"text":"基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的"},{"start":6180.99,"end":6206.348,"text":"那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去"},{"start":6207.108,"end":6223.493,"text":"我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我也不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談"},{"start":6227.774,"end":6248.854,"text":"但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的這個就可以達到要不然環境永續就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一天的使用量是世界最高"},{"start":6249.895,"end":6259.788,"text":"如果你去平均這個人均的話 我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人 每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據 分攤下來就是如此"},{"start":6266.377,"end":6267.858,"text":"所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠 大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一"},{"start":6284.364,"end":6305.337,"text":"如果今天增加天然氣機組 這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛 不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下 我們這個在世界排名 這個數據 這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高 這個是應該要下降的數據啊"},{"start":6308.559,"end":6324.092,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起"},{"start":6332.165,"end":6341.755,"text":"也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有 我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64"},{"start":6348.121,"end":6375.158,"text":"還沒有到嗎 那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是 我們目前是用我們各種你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧"},{"start":6377.677,"end":6390.527,"text":"他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28%"},{"start":6395.729,"end":6414.116,"text":"這是在畫大餅不會 這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門 對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部分你還相信他提供的數據這個"},{"start":6416.71,"end":6436.619,"text":"我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的"},{"start":6438.331,"end":6447.057,"text":"當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼"},{"start":6448.482,"end":6469.682,"text":"當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是"},{"start":6470.783,"end":6498.189,"text":"不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民 謝謝"},{"start":6502.571,"end":6506.132,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請蘇金淺 周偉來做詢問好 謝謝主席 我請部長我們袁 袁 袁 袁 袁署長別著我今天三個問題請教你第一個"},{"start":6534.432,"end":6554.236,"text":"這是我們的離島可能很多人不知道我們全台灣的離島的垃圾全部都運到台灣本島來處理包括屏東的小琉球 綠島 蘭嶼包括連澎湖 金門 農莊上場對不對對啦好來我先第一"},{"start":6563,"end":6572.366,"text":"這個 把它放大可以嗎沒辦法放大嗎要結算喔 沒辦法沒辦法拉大好 來來來先看這邊 看右左邊那邊"},{"start":6591.277,"end":6602.048,"text":"我們用小琉球為例,它有兩個處理垃圾的委外案第一個叫做垃圾轉運站營運管理這個議案"},{"start":6607.377,"end":6617.76,"text":"議案就是一般廢棄物轉運期監督我想所有的理事長都會這樣做啦這兩個案子 欸 柏廷你看看這是三十四億欸你怕死人 你怎麼無農的啊千萬 百萬 千萬 億 十億三十四億"},{"start":6633.989,"end":6644.572,"text":"342萬啦 怕不對啦 抱歉跟委員報告 這顯然是錯誤 屏東環保局可能在打的時候打錯那我們同仁也要通知他 他現在應該是342萬啦 已經請他改正了"},{"start":6660.014,"end":6671.584,"text":"那你的招標是四百六十九萬嘛人家都有在看耶你也這樣一張臉被人家笑死了啊另外一間 還有多少?包委員剛才所指的兩個案子齁它其實是同一筆同一個一個所以是兩個案子還是一個案子?"},{"start":6690.361,"end":6703.734,"text":"他是分兩個計畫,但是是同一個案同一個案子,兩個計畫?是所以兩個報告是一樣?他會分別,他有一個轉運計畫,一個管理計畫兩個的報告是一樣,我看到"},{"start":6714.528,"end":6716.975,"text":"所以這個,我們在留學後,我們就去實際考察我們看那個垃圾"},{"start":6721.448,"end":6750.368,"text":"打包之後弄到船然後就到鹽埔漁港然後車子就載出來嘛是有的車子是就直接載車子就從小琉球然後那個車子就直接開到接駁船上面然後船就拉著走然後到東港到新衍這邊就直接開出去了是這樣嘛所以這是把他調做一個官吏一個操作這樣"},{"start":6754.532,"end":6755.854,"text":"他們想要求多一點的資源,你覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":6761.295,"end":6779.997,"text":"報告委員小琉球的要求我們會再考慮檢討不過目前小琉球的運輸費用是全國最高他甚至比今天運回來還要貴這個部分可能還要檢討一下我們看他的實際的需求"},{"start":6781.587,"end":6796.033,"text":"因為它的遊客真的是非常多然後呢民宿現在已經400多家了然後遊客很多都兩個都去過所以這個都島是你們撥錢給屏東縣環保局去執行所以這個錢100%都是你們給的100%都是你們...是的好"},{"start":6807.978,"end":6828.353,"text":"好那這個要加強那第二個我們防管署我們在第18項第18款第4項第18款第5項黨團的這一些凍結案我就統一起來問剛剛很多委員問了很多了"},{"start":6829.073,"end":6833.141,"text":"在垃圾不漏地的這一項到登革熱颱風現在又來了你有什麼想法跟做法"},{"start":6841.267,"end":6858.516,"text":"再來一些工廠的VOC等等這些有沒有什麼想法是 向委員報告其實在我們的登革熱防制上面我們在北中南從去年開始每一年分為北中南"},{"start":6859.116,"end":6878.057,"text":"各實施實兵演練那這些實兵演練就是大家在別的縣市如果機具由我們調度到現場不管是災害或者是這個登革熱等等之類的那這種高師演練跟現場演練北中南山區各有責任去我們做演練"},{"start":6878.778,"end":6906.752,"text":"那在工廠的VOC上面我們是以科技執法那在我們的年度預算裡面也有顯示在上面希望透過遠端的監控方式來做處理這個是一個科技執法的一個那所以你跟各縣市的環保局都有在監控這些瓶瓶罐罐啊颱風過後像這樣這兩天雨這樣下那些清除都有在監控嗎"},{"start":6907.933,"end":6933.516,"text":"是 這一個它清除完畢會跟我們回報它的數量當然我們也是有一個系統來如果哪一個縣市它有需要資源的話我們會去調度其他的資源或其他縣市來做資源清除所以如果他們做得好有評比 有獎勵 有沒有有 我們在年度的績效評比制度裡面是有這一項的"},{"start":6934.758,"end":6949.26,"text":"好那第三個問題就是我要問部長你剛剛一直在講的環境跟AI的監控那你現在做的是有做到哪一些AI的"},{"start":6951.319,"end":6973.658,"text":"AI第一個是說我們那個對於空瓶的預測例如說現在PM2.5多少像我自己我是敏感體質啊我PM2.5我就設定20以上就會push給我啊那個呢就經過AI去算未來會到20例如說他一直提升他就會主動去推估未來多少那我就手機就會收到啊這個就保障每個人的健康"},{"start":6974.329,"end":7001.214,"text":"那各縣市的這些data如果是有超過預警值你們的署長啊你們的高階的人會顯示你的手機會顯示出來嗎有有我舉例例如說要是發生火災火災往哪裡飄那個煙往哪裡飄我們大概即時都會得到回報消防署會給我們那我們也有自己的所以這個都會提醒來預警做超前的步驟"},{"start":7001.514,"end":7019.028,"text":"有危險值的通報對不對有有有我們自己內部都有可以看得到你看你的手機就會顯示出來對三更半夜也都有也都有對這樣的話那你剛剛另外一個講說家庭裡面也會產生PM2.5你是在說什麼"},{"start":7021.912,"end":7038.718,"text":"沒有啦,我們開一個GAS,開豬柴,一直砰,那個就是等於是燒天然氣嘛,其實那個時候PM2.5就會跳起來,我們有算過大概會到三四十啦,為客啦,因為差不多家裡如果你很乾淨的話,大概都是十以下,"},{"start":7039.258,"end":7054.635,"text":"我們家裡用的那個那個是自然瓦斯一桶一桶那個是中國石油公司煉油的時候所產生的副產品那我們剛剛一直在講瓦斯船"},{"start":7056.236,"end":7084.274,"text":"再來要給台灣發電用的那個是液態天然氣那個兩個來源是不同的但是它原理是類似的當然但是這是石油在蒸餾的時候在分類的時候從產生的那一個瓦斯應該講瓦斯它裡面應該是比液態天然氣還多樣化裡面的化學物質可能會更多"},{"start":7084.954,"end":7106.526,"text":"我們家裡面的其實也不少我們現在會啟動研究調查啦就是說因為像其實有人說要家裡要換電磁爐會比較好啦但是也有一些國外研究說沒差是你要吃什麼例如說國外有研究肩培根PM2.5可以到2000啦所以這個其實我們一直很想要用健康的觀點來保障每個國人的健康"},{"start":7107.926,"end":7131.361,"text":"就是說炸豬排啊那個其實PM2.5的都在美國你看到很多用電爐啦他們都220的230齁他們都用電爐他們很少像我們用炸的用炸的那我們的瓦斯就是桶裝的瓦斯或天然瓦斯自來瓦斯我在想裡面因為是煉油的過程所產生的"},{"start":7132.622,"end":7136.386,"text":"護膠物它裡面可能會比液態天然氣還多樣化"},{"start":7139.426,"end":7163.195,"text":"化學成分會更多有沒有研究過這個包委員這個部份國內的調查我有問我同仁目前過去調查的很少像我們洗熱水澡也是用瓦斯其實也會產生出來其實生活裡面的這個就是我們要調查的重點所以這個你要往這個方面研究就是說你這間廁所你現在燒出來的東西燒不完整不完全燃燒"},{"start":7164.535,"end":7184.561,"text":"為什麼冬天關個窗戶洗個熱水澡就會溼人那都是這樣是不是有其他的化學物質那是一氧化碳中毒當然你說一氧化碳但是我覺得它稍微有很多稍微不完整的稍微不完全的那些化學物質搞不好那裡面有一二十種成分"},{"start":7185.621,"end":7212.875,"text":"所以這個環保署你要去研究這個啦是是 我現在我們今年會有一個重點就是健康啦 健康的市長 你可能要去做一些研究啦 好不好好 那最後一個就是我們屏東很多人 王一民講到幾大堆齁這些煤 這些發電廠一直飄飄飄齁我一直從小到現在那個臨沿石化工業區齁我對它真的是很"},{"start":7214.296,"end":7217.057,"text":"就給你小的啦那真的迷茫茫 燈光那裡 燈光那裡這麼多的 肺部的問題啦我跟那邊是絕對的關係啦那你新達大林 漂過來的那屏東本身 你說你用AI在監控那些農業機械啦"},{"start":7241.52,"end":7256.507,"text":"如果用柴油燒 很多的民眾操作的農民如果用柴油燒積聚的話 那個對身體還是不好啦所以這個其實我們以後也要來注意啦我有發現到這一塊 所以我們一起來"},{"start":7257.97,"end":7259.851,"text":"來研究看看,看看怎麼那個,好謝謝"},{"start":7279.144,"end":7285.446,"text":"所以王委員是說代表臺灣到WHA為臺灣發聲,各位再鼓掌一下"},{"start":7308.413,"end":7309.033,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":7975.37,"end":7981.483,"text":"好 休息時間到 請各位回座那我們接下來請王志旭委員來做審打"},{"start":7990.529,"end":8012.625,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝剛剛主席的美言跟鼓勵的確這次去日內瓦參加相關的會議尤其是世界衛生大會有更多的國家不管是離岸相近或是我們邦交國真的都很希望台灣有機會不管是當觀察員或者是直接進到議場去參與討論都有給我們更多的支持"},{"start":8016.528,"end":8037.431,"text":"那也跟當地的議員們也討論到說這個我們的議員國會之間怎麼交流他們也很期待台灣給予更多的協助跟討論尤其是他們發現當地的青少年自殺比例其實越來越高他們也很擔心那他們也知道台灣做的努力"},{"start":8038.092,"end":8052.143,"text":"還有一些成果所以未來我們有更多的機會來跟他們一起共同討論那其他還有很多現在不方便跟大家報告的地方我們找機會再來做討論謝謝主席那我們就請部長請部長"},{"start":8057.931,"end":8080.847,"text":"黃委員好部長好今天有三個部分來跟部長這邊做討論包括這個廚餘的分類的政策還有這個移動噪音的防治第三項就是空污統計的資訊我想剛剛最後一項很多委員都有跟部長討論過那第一個部分就是廚餘分類我們什麼時候要吃粽子啊"},{"start":8082.913,"end":8100.37,"text":"應該過兩天嘛端午節所以這個種葉到底是當作什麼垃圾來處理是一般垃圾還是可以當作回收的廚餘我不知道目前種葉是垃圾但是裡面沒吃完的種子是廚餘"},{"start":8101.611,"end":8126.767,"text":"是這樣子這是中央的態度嗎還是說每一個縣市有不同的處理方式是 向委員報告其實中業這部分各縣市的處理方式不一致它會依照它後端的去處跟它處理方式會有不同是 所以重要的是各個縣市它自己處理的方式或者是它的量能不一樣所以它的規範不一樣"},{"start":8127.808,"end":8152.142,"text":"是的譬如說有一些是拿去養豬或者是他就不會把種葉認為是所以盡量把它吃完不過好像有一些外國人來台灣吃粽子的時候會把粽葉順便也吃下去他以為是一個生菜一樣不過我們可以看一下其實真的各個縣市有很大的不一樣那彰化縣跟新北市"},{"start":8153.323,"end":8173.403,"text":"它是當作我們看一下下一個畫面就知道三化縣跟新北市把它當作一般垃圾高雄市把它當作這個堆毀廚餘這個是很不一樣的地方那我們再看往下其實除了這個應景的種業以外我們發現"},{"start":8174.784,"end":8192.753,"text":"很多很多的這個廚餘的分類是差很多包括以骨頭為例那骨頭的話新北市要把這個骨頭當作這個其他的廚餘丟入一般垃圾來處理這個是新北市的做法然後我們看到台北市又不一樣"},{"start":8193.954,"end":8221.507,"text":"台北市有把這個當作廚餘堆毀的廚餘要回收這個回收是部分大小的骨頭只要是骨頭就把它當作台北市就把它當作這個堆毀廚餘那我們再看一下台東台東也不太一樣台東又把這個骨頭分為大骨頭小骨頭如果是屬於這個積壓壓的小骨頭當作一個部分生熟的廚餘來處理那如果是大骨頭的話"},{"start":8223.048,"end":8244.425,"text":"是變成一個處理一般垃圾來處理意思就是說剛剛署長也提到根據這個每一個縣市的處理方式不同考量斜內清除處理的設施還有去化管道食物的需求會處理到不同的方式覺得這樣好嗎"},{"start":8246.271,"end":8263.81,"text":"這樣的處理方式會不會對民眾造成一種我住在新北市我在台北市工作那我中午的處理垃圾模式就跟晚上我回到家處理垃圾模式不一樣這樣會不會造成困惑或困擾這部分不知道再過來有什麼好的方式沒有"},{"start":8264.848,"end":8284.444,"text":"因為廚餘的後端處理,有些像剛才提到的粽葉或者是骨頭這個因為它後面有沒有粉碎的設備,或者是它粉碎的設備到什麼程度等等之類的,它各地會有不同的處理方式,不過"},{"start":8285.646,"end":8299.742,"text":"原則上在我們請到廚餘的時候各地的清潔隊如果發現這個分類不對會做交易那這種交易只要交一次民眾大概就可以接受了那當然還是會有因為像"},{"start":8300.863,"end":8313.195,"text":"委員所提的就是說我第一次來我可能站不到這個不過整體而言那個清潔隊是第一線他會跟民眾講什麼去做的確是有這個狀況不過我也會去"},{"start":8316.558,"end":8335.37,"text":"追著垃圾車丟廚餘或是丟很多的垃圾我們很壓抑就是好像我們很努力的把它做好分類拿去把它撈起來好像它就就是你放到那個就跟我們期待的其實是不一樣的我是不太清楚大家的生活經驗如何"},{"start":8336.03,"end":8363.139,"text":"我意思是說 當我們很努力的想要配合各個縣市要做這些垃圾分類的時候往往到了現場 到垃圾現場發現他放置的方式或者是位置跟我們期待不一樣我們就覺得 這樣我們要做這個除以垃圾的分類有意義嗎這個部分 所以我們才提了一些想是不是透過方便民眾執行跟落實分類的方式來做調理"},{"start":8363.579,"end":8387.498,"text":"那方便清潔隊員跟業者處理的處置模式來把這個垃圾的分類可以做得更好那當然也可以方便各級政府來做機關的宣傳那如果沒有辦法就好像剛剛署長所提到部長所提到的因為每一個縣市他處理垃圾的量能還有他的能力是不一樣的話那如果沒有辦法一步到位全國統一能不能做區域整合"},{"start":8388.558,"end":8415.734,"text":"生活圈理論上我剛舉個例子我平常在基隆以前是白天在基隆上班我回到台北市的時候我的處理模式如果區域能夠整合到一個程度的話對於未來垃圾的處理會不會讓民眾可以更有好的配合模式這部分不知道部裡面有沒有可以進行規劃或者是如何跟各縣市來做一些統合"},{"start":8418.14,"end":8426.747,"text":"我們那個廚藝的部分其實在110年有訂定一個廚藝的分類的指引這當然指引是一個"},{"start":8429.073,"end":8448.682,"text":"後端有講究說各縣市可以依照它的實際的狀況再做細部的調整那區域的合作方面謝謝委員指導我們下去之後來跟各地方政府環保局來做一個協調談談看有沒有這個機會或者是大家如何去合作等這個部分我們來做"},{"start":8449.562,"end":8471.696,"text":"好啊在麻煩部裡面書裡面這邊來加油那第二個部分就是有關的這個移動噪音員的防治之前也有跟部長討論過我目前知道很多移動噪音其實很對於尤其在渡會區裡面對民眾的影響不管是在深夜或者是突然一個大的噪音造成的影響其實蠻大的"},{"start":8472.196,"end":8497.12,"text":"那這邊所造成的這個車輛噪音稽查下來差不多是有佔了11.07%那這部分我們也知道在取締上有某一些的困難度所以上一次部長也提到說希望能夠針對於這個源頭做管理這邊有提了兩個部分就是除了這個設置聲音照相透過科技執法來取締噪音"},{"start":8497.92,"end":8506.429,"text":"車以外那就是改裝排氣源的這個源頭管理那不知道目前執行狀況有沒有可以提供我們做參考的地方"},{"start":8507.31,"end":8532.257,"text":"向委員報告目前這個有關排氣管認證的部分目前已經在實施從今年1月1號開始那我們也提供就是經本部認證有400多組的這個排氣管讓民眾選擇那此外在那個聲音照相的部分呢我們目前其實正在爭取公務預算在今年年底的時候我們希望全國可以設置300套然後到118年的時候能夠設到600套來增加這個科技執法的量能"},{"start":8532.957,"end":8560.022,"text":"是 所以取地的量還有本身的源頭管理都有在有開始 今年1月的時候開始OK 好 那我們期待會有一些成果出來那最後就是有關於這個空污統計的資訊我想很多委員都已經剛剛也跟部長討論過那王秘遠委員這次其實我們一起去瑞士包括劉書斌委員對於當地的空氣的確都非常羨慕當然他們有他們的環境也有他們的條件"},{"start":8562.322,"end":8580.297,"text":"那針對這部分不知道除了說當初部長很希望大家更能理解很多的空氣污染除了我們現在的政策之外還有其他的一些科學數據告訴民眾說我們空氣的品質"},{"start":8581.378,"end":8601.312,"text":"當然還可以再進步可是一些科學根據也告訴我們大家民眾其實除了如何保護自己以外也知道努力的方向跟進步的部分那這部分可不可以請部長利用這個時間再跟全國民眾做一些說明好 謝謝委員因為其實瑞士"},{"start":8602.793,"end":8628.994,"text":"這個為什麼比較好?它跟人口的密度有很大的關係其實它的人口密度跟台灣是差別很大那人其實生活裡面就會產生很多的污染物例如說我們的煮菜或各方面那我們一般的這個空污的計算呢基本上PM2.5是代表所有污染物包含Suck, Snug直接或是衍生性的污染物所以我們通常都是用PM2.5來做一個計算所以現在國際的這個期刊假設我們談癌症"},{"start":8629.534,"end":8644.26,"text":"跟這種所謂的健康的關係都是用PM2.5來做代表那因為其實空污非常的深那很多人不是很瞭解所以其實委員我們其實五月中的時候也發布了這個空品的白皮書那當然這個部分因為我們才剛完成"},{"start":8644.7,"end":8671.929,"text":"所以未來我們會強化跟社會大眾的一個溝通因為其實我們日常生活當中我們不管是家裡面其實就有很多產生PM2.5的來源那我們在室內的機會會比較多當然我必須說我們戶外的那個管制我們環境部這是我們的職責我們會要求不管是公營機關或是私立其實我們都有管制他們每一根煙囪我們都有這個監控的這個設備在那邊我們未來一定會嚴格的來管制希望的污染物可以減量"},{"start":8673.429,"end":8694.918,"text":"其實像部長所提到的瑞士它的面積是四萬平方公里左右比台灣稍微多一點他們人口是八百萬左右只有我們的三分之一左右所以生活條件不一樣當然造成的環境都不太一樣不過的確也希望大家繼續努力就麻煩部長謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":8704.485,"end":8704.745,"text":"有請光臨"},{"start":8715.098,"end":8740.177,"text":"我們接下來麻煩我們的趙偉來發言,劉建國趙偉,請好,謝謝主席,那有請部長好,有請部長那你再請一下嚴署長好,有請嚴署長好,趙偉好,剛剛王委員跟我立馬那個藏野蛙,藏野蛙怎麼會一國三制"},{"start":8741.628,"end":8754.494,"text":"有的電子晶體去凹開的,有的電子晶體的動作是垃圾的,我想這不是跟基隆台北市對的對的問題,台北市跟同盟也對的對的問題,同盟市跟省財省也對的對的問題,同盟市也有人向老闆向台東上班,上班所也對,也對台東說要回同盟。"},{"start":8760.542,"end":8779.237,"text":"在台中有一個處理方針,在台北有一個處理方針,在台東有一個處理方針,我們中央環境部沒辦法跟政府通過一個規範,它到底是分手,到底是要拿去堆肥,還是要拿去吃,當然外國人要吃我們沒意見,吃土也不是你環境部管的,是FDA管的,但是我們有一個政府的合法的處理方針,"},{"start":8781.072,"end":8799.002,"text":"我們人均沒多少通他的要求到幾分指引指引難道只是做參考之用沒有道理骨頭大小因為後端處理的這個機械可能有一些問題所以也不盡其難的同一個標準那那就奇怪了"},{"start":8800.063,"end":8813.51,"text":"垃圾不落地 資源回收 資源的整個分類整個制定的政策的最高主管機關不是在環境部嗎環境部一旦制定完之後當然你地方政府就要有所遵循啊但台灣是一個多數國家 一個小小的多數國家而已讓一個辣雞分類主管維修一個帳的規劃有辦法說中央是這樣訂啦從來讓你自己去做參考因為你有記憶的問題 所以"},{"start":8830.376,"end":8834.52,"text":"所以有的歐比,所以有的價位,所以有的動作本首那些生命力大家怎麼好到這樣?不舒服?不對吧?"},{"start":8842.622,"end":8871.021,"text":"你如果說今天高雷死了,中央有中央政策,中央政府在台灣現在就分比較多,高雷他自己管治,可以生育,可以提款,你要再提一塊,那我們不用作動嘛,那我們也不用訂標準嘛,對不對?但是那些人都是要福利,你中央訂了,相關的法律訂完之後,你只要有一些進好進貼,你抵觸到既有的社福來講,他是可以折衣折糕,折衣去做處理嘛,"},{"start":8872.722,"end":8884.721,"text":"他還是要幫你抵觸咧但是怎麼會在社會分裂資源回收一個帳那裡可以一國獨自所以我覺得不夠順利所以你現在可以做民靠的因為我們這都是現場轉播的"},{"start":8886.789,"end":8908.173,"text":"好,謝謝委員指導,以葬儀為例,有位館長認為他是比較長纖,他的破碎如果可以破碎得比較細,他就可以早去堆肥,如果他沒有辦法破碎得那麼細的話,他就可能會用作本所去處理。"},{"start":8910.734,"end":8937.163,"text":"阿不可這個委員的意見我們會參考是不是請大家再來檢討像類似骨頭或者是重業這種東西啊大家有沒有同意的一個做法這個我想我們可以來做討論不是因為我剛剛聽王委員的這個垂詢基本上應該是這麼講就是說我在我可能我工作是在基隆那我住是要住在台北"},{"start":8937.932,"end":8961.786,"text":"但是我可能遇到中餐可能遇到晚餐我這樣的一個分類就只有一個隔壁的縣市就不一樣這不對啦這絕對不對我覺得環境部應該負起這個責任該怎麼處理就怎麼處理該怎麼去補強就怎麼去補強應該有一套統一的標準嘛不然身在一個島嶼的國家中華民國的一個國民"},{"start":8963.188,"end":8985.209,"text":"一個戰略的分類要因為不同縣市然後做不同的處置不同的處理跟應變這不對啦這絕對不是政府為政之道啦好不好好 委員這個我們來檢討就是說看如何整合能夠有一個統一的一個方法我們來努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長一個月可以吧"},{"start":8986.598,"end":8992.761,"text":"可以 好 謝謝好 這剛才是 抱歉啦 題材啦不是姿勢啦 別誤會我現在要把它放在補充啦兩年拜前在這個地方也就是我們補充就希望把這個綠營人才培訓培育課程"},{"start":9000.611,"end":9022.249,"text":"將中低收入跟還有深藏全額做這樣一個補助那我很很很很很高興也很肯定部長可以這樣的積極作為馬上在這個21號上週就已經宣布綠營人才這個培育課程納入中低收入戶及深藏全額補助比照比照低收入的標準做全額的補助再強調一次所以這邊我再度跟"},{"start":9024.851,"end":9049.701,"text":"部長表達最高的一個謝意跟敬意謝謝委員的指正這個讓全國的這些中低收入還有這些身上朋友看到一個曙光也看到這個事情的這樣的一個大家可以關注的一個亮點那我相信未來這個報評的人數會因為這樣子會有更好的一個成長的比例因為我們想說可能這短短的一兩年或是兩三年綠營人才"},{"start":9050.598,"end":9065.648,"text":"就會追過所謂的AI這個人才的這樣的一個需求跟這個標準值所以我在這邊還是再度跟部長做一下的肯定不過勞工這一塊好像到現在還沒有消息報告委員因為"},{"start":9066.328,"end":9088.415,"text":"那個我跟洪部長有交換過兩次的意見啦那因為最主要是說他那邊的勞工跟我們在大學訓練的這個方式跟形態樣態不一樣所以我們還在協調所以在委員再給我們一點點時間我們會討出一個方案那天你在問安博長安博長你在跟我說有一點意有所措像環境部的問題"},{"start":9096.778,"end":9114.768,"text":"因為他們的勞工通常跟我們這個大學裡面受訓的樣態學生那個情境是不大一樣的他有特別提醒我這一點啊他們那邊那個他們每個分署等於是說等於是有他的這個樣態所以他們是希望我們去他們那邊上課啦所以這個還在協調當中啦"},{"start":9116.269,"end":9126.671,"text":"如果有問題,我不是說你一定會去罵,是紅布丁的問題,紅布丁也不一定會罵你啦,不會受罵啦,如果真的有這麼多麻煩,無法解決,不然我請主席,請你去喝咖啡這樣也好,因為現在這都是,全部都要協助勞工嘛,跟社會勞工嘛,我想這也是要給布丁多一點面積啦,好不好,有這個部分嘛,不知道這樣的話,我再問布丁是不是對他有保?"},{"start":9142.472,"end":9167.191,"text":"因為你剛才沒有說是在大學的通識課程包括在高中生的環境的課程裡面其實都應該可以來討論如果把它再用最快的速度把它納入對 包括我們那個下學等於下半年會針對高中生來推動啦這個教育部也同意了會跟我們合作高中生有OK 那就很棒了因為我們應該是可以邁向"},{"start":9167.951,"end":9183.549,"text":"全民綠領了這樣的一個目標來打拚嘛所以可能各個階層所以現在反正現在政府已經有溝通了下個會期就可以來實施那最好不過了不過針對勞工還有失業勞工我還是希望部長可以做盡快的一個處理的方式啦好不好應該說一天一百就該過來嘛好不好"},{"start":9184.93,"end":9194.279,"text":"因為那個 他們 我們也開過會啦我們要請我們院長稍微講一下 好不好不然他站在那邊沒說也不好意思跟委員報告一下因為他們 因為他們勞工的 他們的課程有補貼還有一個 他們的時數很晚欸因為我們只有48小時是針對台行的那個教材都是針對大學那個層級在安排"},{"start":9205.629,"end":9218.195,"text":"所以現在要用事業勞工來設計,這個要去另外設計,不然勞工來上課說教材這樣不大好,那是另外一個問題,所以我們要討論怎麼操作模式比較好所以我們要討論這個操作模式,不然我一定要向鄉愁找找這第一點,第一點就是說經營不是問題"},{"start":9224.598,"end":9237.549,"text":"他們已經經常有相關去做一些調整而已所以這應該不是騙錢的問題 應該是看大家有一個共識讓國家來把這個勞工跟社會勞工可以拿進去做處理我想這是一件很重要的事 也很需要國家來做一件事好不好好 我們趕緊來處理啦好啊 如果還有一星期就不是這樣一直跟他比啦好 謝謝 市長部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":9253.643,"end":9255.387,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員的質詢 謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請張其凱委員發言"},{"start":9283.168,"end":9285.031,"text":"天空的這個顏色啊是一個國家進步的象徵"},{"start":9298.971,"end":9327.512,"text":"你是專家你應該聽過這句話空汙的多少也是國家進步跟落後的一個象徵柏定你上任以後天空的顏色有進步還是退步二氧化硫氮氧化物酸雨越來越多還是越來越少全民都在看這幾天很多人都在討論你的講法你說要了解PM2.5多少可是很多學者專家提起你"},{"start":9329.076,"end":9332.52,"text":"空屋啊除了PM2.5其實啦淡涼化屋流氧化屋也是很嚴重的對不對淡涼化屋大概佔整個空屋比例大概16.5%嘛如果是流氧化屋40.4%啊"},{"start":9346.584,"end":9371.921,"text":"我今天提這個是希望說 你的天空是進步的你現在監控PM2.5的同時 要注意所有的好不好報告委員 我說一下定義喔PM2.5含直接排放 還有衍生性的衍生性就包含SAX NAX就是你說的氮氧化物跟硫氧化物它是一個懸浮微粒所以我們講健康 是會拿PM2.5來跟健康各種的病去做比較的所以這是國際上通用的一個做法 我並沒有錯"},{"start":9372.782,"end":9401.605,"text":"現在是兩個問題啦一個就是不要只看到那個小微粒啦其他要放進去第二個現在有人在說啊你把它全台灣平均起來不要只有看玉山把玉山放進來 把阿里山放進來空氣通路的台東 橋 花蓮現在通驚中立道事實上就517飛河加岸以後大家在擔心的是什麼就中火嘛中火的污染源就是從這個一燒起來燒煤炭開始從苗栗一直到高雄嘛 對不對然後這幾天引起最大爭議的什麼"},{"start":9403.274,"end":9417.144,"text":"就是星達三號跟四號嘛那燒煤炭就繼續燒嘛就是本來用這個核能的時候它是低碳或者是無碳的那一下燒煤炭的時候污染就增加嘛這些比較值嘛 對不對所以我才講就是說你這個部長要是進步的還是退步的"},{"start":9418.965,"end":9435.254,"text":"包委員第一個是說我們有嚴格的去監控每一個地方的空汙在這個過去一兩個禮拜我們台灣的空氣品質當然我必須說天氣比較好也有下雨我們的空氣品質並沒有變差第一個第二個委員說的這個平均"},{"start":9435.814,"end":9450.937,"text":"全世界都是一樣我們有32個手動式標準的策戰那個標準是用這種所謂的手動式要過濾到水氣的影響所以我們跟日本跟韓國是一樣有一樣共通的跟美國一樣的標準所以我們才做這樣的比較的"},{"start":9452.103,"end":9477.91,"text":"剛剛你有一句話我是肯定的就是說你說除了室內跟室外之外室外你說還是要去努力嘛對不對對當然我就希望你是往進步的方向走啦跟我剛剛那個比較只是個很明顯的像核能是低碳無碳的時候你燒了煤燒了天然氣當然就是增加嘛對不對那你就有責任盡量讓它要避免要是變少的啊第二個是整體去談我希望大家以後在評判你的時候就今天又有媒體用社論在評判啊你說不要用廢發電這個字眼啊其實"},{"start":9480.345,"end":9494.711,"text":"如果空氣有汙染空汙是嚴重的就是用生命在發電啊用廢啊用健康在發電啊報告委員那個我講一下啦像今天秀芳在這中華因為中華受害中華也是很嚴重的中華是廢線來鑽台灣通街嘛而且全民就在注意這個事情當你廢核加研完之後今天主席在這剛剛那個劉建國 劉主席主席現在不在與你那個麥寮電廠古泥河山廠的一號機停了之後"},{"start":9511.124,"end":9537.279,"text":"就是繼續賣掉電廠啊全台灣最大污染源發電的第一就是中火嘛對不對第一次就賣掉啊賣掉本來4月份已經停了啊火已經滿了啊要緊急去續約啊所以劉建國他們就受害啊所以那一天是雲林、我家裡的鄉親台南、中華、台中幾天人來行政院控議啊還到監察院要求要調查啊就民眾的感觸是很深的嘛"},{"start":9539.964,"end":9562.094,"text":"所以一方面是為了大家的健康一方面空屋的這個事情你是環境部長我們會看現在的空屋有沒有任何的變化現在的數值有多少你也可以打開你的手機APP看我們現在是PM2.5的數值是多少過去這幾天台灣以中部來說的話大概就是8到9而已沒有顯著的變化高雄我們也正在看也沒有顯著的變化"},{"start":9562.754,"end":9580.063,"text":"一個東西一個排放擴散我們環境部都有去監控任何的一個煙囪的第二個呢它擴散是一個過程它其實是一個大氣擴散是一個非常非常複雜的一個學問所以我們當然我們當然會希望它能夠減量但是造成空污的來源真的非常的多所以我說那個"},{"start":9581.263,"end":9602.995,"text":"我們有一些但書,我們PM2.5的確從過去的103年是24十幾年前我們的那時候是每大概50%左右我們空品PM2.5全國南部都三四十以上的現在已經降到平均全台是12.8了我是用那樣的方式說我們其實很多的來源所以我們可以用更平時的討論包含的生活污染源、移動污染源我們一起來減量"},{"start":9604.376,"end":9620.411,"text":"要整體去嘛所以你說最大汙染也是高通嘛對不對所以我們就會想說要多發展這個大眾的這個運輸系統啊電動車嘛對不對那它可能還在增加所以除了整體去看之外你要看每一個事件的發生你看中火很明顯啊盧先生講得很好啊他去統計517前後的兩天啊它現時燒煤炭就增加了1.4噸啊1.4萬噸啊"},{"start":9628.544,"end":9651.969,"text":"這數據不會騙人嘛 如果燒了1.4萬噸 空氣怎麼會變好 一定變差嘛對不對 阿等於 委員空氣我們會看實際上的空氣品質的監測值並沒有顯出的變化對啦 阿在補聽你講的嘛 它有很多種污染源嘛 包括汽車 對不對你說最大是交通嘛 那我是說整體當然要看 可是你很明顯如果從中火燒煤炭增加 當然空氣一定是 那邊一定是變不好的嘛 對不對"},{"start":9652.429,"end":9666.886,"text":"我也沒有變不好 沒有變不好你可以看過去的幾天 交通這邊變少了 或者下雨嘛啊我說單獨你單獨去看中火 中火就是前後就增加了1.4萬噸 是幹嘛 對不對那這個有沒有增加盧俊光也對不對"},{"start":9669.06,"end":9695.039,"text":"517非核加鹽他就統計516跟518啊518中火燒的煤炭就多了1.4萬噸啊夠明確了吧這東西不會騙人吧一個空污的排放他燒多少煤他還有他的這個控制管制這個污染的這個量他有一套的技術在那邊最後擴散出去是有一個過程那個其實都受到鹽糜的監控的有在控制有在改善嘛可是他就是增加嘛對不對你會否認增加這個事實"},{"start":9696.894,"end":9723.941,"text":"但是我們會看但是我們會看實際上的空汙到底有多少從沒有到增加1.4萬噸這東西你怎麼會否認咧你應該沒有否認這個吧我沒有否認啦但是問題是說我們會看實際上每個民眾呼吸到的空氣的PM2.5到底是多少嘛我們從數字來看嘛所以它就是增加嘛我現在接下來跟你講高雄嘛高雄也是增加來補充一下第一個這段時間老舊這個機組從"},{"start":9726.892,"end":9738.077,"text":"高雄兩個重要基礎這個重啟 顯示什麼就是用電不夠嘛 電力不夠嘛所以政府戳破了政府這不缺電這個牛皮嘛覺得嚴重的 我覺得這就是環境部的責任了我聽 清達3號跟4號它重啟對不對它是合法的嗎合法的合法我給你看一下 古尼啊 這份"},{"start":9756.332,"end":9771.97,"text":"這一份是113年5月份薛部長的書面報告他說緊急備用電力設施的啟動通報程序"},{"start":9773.277,"end":9786.17,"text":"為了維護供電安全跟穩定當實際或者預估系統供電餘溢就是備載容量多少6%以下台電公司可以視電力系統運轉情況啟動緊急的"},{"start":9794.897,"end":9802.962,"text":"設備以為因應 我問你一下這邊 星達3號跟4號運轉的時候 它備轉容量備轉容量 幾%我不知道 因為這個是台電它是跳入的事情他就不合照規定啊6%以下嘛 對不對這是你電池裡面的部隊嘛 8%目前我們所到的數字是8%所以台電是打臉 打臉環境不良"},{"start":9824.335,"end":9829.377,"text":"星達8% 大嶺是6%對啊這個函式裡面幾%這個是薛部長的報告啊 6%以下才可以啟動啊我再進一步給你看你們在106年的0023996號函你們的函式也是寫6%啊那這樣星達 來來保定從薛部長的報告"},{"start":9854.937,"end":9866.863,"text":"從106年你們的含釋台電這個緊急的這個基礎他如果要備用要運轉都要6%對不對他怎麼不到6%他就可以運轉呢這沒有違反你的規定有沒有大林 說實在的啦大林電廠 大林電廠你知道幾歲了嗎大林電廠1975年耶 已經除役了"},{"start":9884.332,"end":9895.056,"text":"他在運轉那個空汙那個老舊的機組一方面危險一方面空汙嚴重嘛不過基本上大連還大連還符合你的6%我現在問的是星達3號跟4號有違反你的6%嗎"},{"start":9902.779,"end":9914.785,"text":"報告委員基本上他是一個緊急備用有一個720小時的一個限制那環評的這個承諾的是備轉容量小於8%這個是興達電廠這兩個呢符合當中一個就可以了"},{"start":9918.396,"end":9933.264,"text":"人家台電已經打臉你 已經違反你的規定了你還要幫他解釋這是環比的規範明明薛部長在立法院的報告第二個我剛跟你講這個韓式文你再查一下好不好第二個好我進一步問你你剛講說緊急備用電力設施8%這個事情這什麼時候的規定有這個嗎"},{"start":9948.226,"end":9972.532,"text":"當時的環評承諾環評承諾 對這個環評承諾沒有違反你自己的含釋違反你的規定有沒有違反空污法第24條目前是沒有 因為兩個法是獨立的大聲一點 請大聲一點沒有違法 是兩個法是獨立的兩個法是獨立 一個是環評法 一個是空污法"},{"start":9975.097,"end":9994.506,"text":"公務法沒有授權這個嘛然後第二個我剛剛已經給你看了兩個重要的這個文件嘛 對不對那現在部長 你現在跟部長講的是什麼是你的環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了公務法 它怎麼會有效呢而且補充剛剛的第一個時間嘛你要6%以下嘛它的反依據有問題嘛 對不對 補充"},{"start":10000.458,"end":10008.302,"text":"空務法是緊急備用720小時 環評的承諾是小於8%的時候它可以運轉對阿 它怎麼可以訂一個違反空務法24條的就是6%嘛 6%跟8%差這麼多 6%什麼意思6%就是它的燈號已經從黃燈轉到橘燈橘燈就是系統性的限電可能要產生了"},{"start":10023.069,"end":10047.172,"text":"你降到6%以下可能隨時大停電了捏要緊急去應變捏跟8%差很多捏這邊政府碰到什麼問題就是非核家營以後核三廠的二號機佔我們所有用電的3%那剛進戶呢就再追那3%嘛追不到嘛啊你現在就是不到6%結果現在台電偷偷去啟用這個而且他連操作席可都沒有耶"},{"start":10049.963,"end":10054.005,"text":"第一個他沒有操作許可對不對 第二他違反你6%啊這個問題很嚴重耶部長 我們具體要求啦他的環評承諾是有問題的因為反議具有問題 你要照你原來的空污法的規定6%去走"},{"start":10068.348,"end":10088.087,"text":"所以你進一步去了解一下好不好這個我們再了解一下這個當時是因為這個年代非常久了啦但是我們目前是依法它環評的承諾跟空污法兩項它其實是符合其中之一它就可以它的運作不是 它如果你說的是環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了魔法怎麼會有效"},{"start":10091.155,"end":10107.36,"text":"第一個你是一個進步的環境部長你是要顧著人民的健康人民的肺人民的生命所以當然是要為一方面要顧及他的健康嘛所以要先進的一個環境部長嘛第二個你要守法這個評估報告之後有問題"},{"start":10108.966,"end":10119.41,"text":"環評承諾如果有問題就要去改啦好我做兩個建議啦好不好來博定來我們做兩件事情啦做兩件事情第一個你回去把這個當初的環評承諾為什麼有8%這個事情也沒違反你母媽媽弄清楚好不好啊直接給我重點"},{"start":10125.732,"end":10150.161,"text":"現在開始 現在大家發現一些火力發電 特別是燒煤的或者是燒天然氣的 50年以上的老舊的全部都開了對我們健康還有危險 這個都是問題能不能請你折成台電 這是一樣的喔公佈每一天 每一個發電廠燃燒煤的 燒油的 它用了多少的油或者多少的煤 可不可以"},{"start":10151.414,"end":10176.841,"text":"這個我們要了解一下今天往這邊說才會是一個先進的而且顧到我們人民健康的部長你還是要看一下我們實際上造成我們的空氣品質的變化有多少當然我必須說這幾天天氣很好擴散很容易但是如果冬天的話可能不大一樣但是問題是說我們還是要看空污的影響你如果看那個園它如果做好污染的管控那個排出來的量就少很多這個是空氣污染這個我們有共識啦全民也有共識啦"},{"start":10177.341,"end":10198.414,"text":"就是說有下雨天暴雨人要用科學的數字來看因為那個空的數字到底有多少你看我們的FB就可以有了嘛中火那邊有沒有增加燒煤或者是這個星達3號4號有沒有起這個也是理性物質科學的但我也可以看我們現在的空氣品質到底多少有沒有變化嘛有沒有科學嘛就是說中部南部的空品質有沒有變化嘛我做個簡單的因為我們講的沒有衝突啦第一個"},{"start":10203.357,"end":10221.555,"text":"空污是整體的包括交通包括工廠對不對這些全部都在裡面有沒有下雨也會影響嘛所以整體去控制是需要的可是今天更重要的就是每個具體的例如說中火裡面都燒了多少煤然後你星達3號4號本來是沒有的大林電廠本來已經是除役的你重啟那個個案當然就存在啊它從零變成有嘛對不對"},{"start":10227.16,"end":10244.927,"text":"這個不用辯論嘛那我現在在跟你討論的整體的要去注意整體要去注意更重要的人民已經有感有感他本來應該是領的他變成有對我們的衝擊那你要去這個又是你管的啊這個我管的啊委員你也可以看一下我們的APP我們現在的空品到底多少"},{"start":10245.327,"end":10271.916,"text":"你兩邊去對照就可以知道說這個問題在哪裡你現在講通案嘛 我可以說通案就是包括交通什麼那些下不下雨那個都有 那個要做啦我現在跟你講是從零變成沒有的這個很重要 因為本來沒有嘛你今天如果回頭三場二號機沒停掉你就沒有中火全開 因為火力全開啊就沒有興達電廠的三號機 四號機重啟啊也沒有大林電廠五十年的老舊除役的又重來嘛 是不是這樣這個當然是你管的 你要去注意啊 好不好"},{"start":10272.476,"end":10287.785,"text":"我們會管現在的空瓶到底有沒有變化我們這個有智慧的主席已經站起來很久了通案處理然後個案零到沒有的要趕快監控確保我們的安全跟健康謝謝謝謝部長的答詢下一位麻煩黃協防委員發言"},{"start":10303.487,"end":10306.132,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長好 要請部長"},{"start":10309.561,"end":10336.062,"text":"黃委員好 部長剛剛張委員在詢問我剛剛有上網看了台電每一天的發電量多少那他是燃油燃氣或者是氣墊共生他的比例在網路上面都有所以等一下請張委員其實也可以在網路上面搜尋一下另外當然就是說空污的這個議題對張化的委員來講其實我們都非常的關心尤其是張化"},{"start":10337.103,"end":10350.899,"text":"北邊有這個中火台中火力發電廠那南邊有六清那每一天到底這個火力發電廠或六清這個發電所造成的這個空污的部分那剛剛我也聽到部長講說你們都有在監測那當然這個污染的"},{"start":10356.246,"end":10363.757,"text":"這個源頭有很多啦剛剛有特別提到其實固定污染源和移動污染源那彰化這邊其實我還有一個議題我想請教部長的就是說除了你們有去監測這兩個就是說這"},{"start":10372.268,"end":10396.059,"text":"這個桌邊火力發電廠或者是六輕這桌邊的這個空污的狀況你們應該是每一天每每時時都在監測嘛對不對時時都在監測那我想請教就是說這幾天從這個上個禮拜這個河山廠停機之後那到現在那個整個中部地區的這個空瓶的部分是不是有明顯的變化"},{"start":10397.419,"end":10412.614,"text":"報告委員這個其實沒有任何的波動但是每天的這個波動會因為氣象的因素的變化有一些差別那目前來看的話我們從5月17號之後到目前為止空品沒有顯著的變化是都是良好等級"},{"start":10414.214,"end":10430.239,"text":"那也有可能是最近這幾天下雨的關係所以在這邊本席也要求就是環境部針對這一部分應該是實時監測如果有一旦沒有下雨然後整個空氣品質狀況是有顯著的差異"},{"start":10433.9,"end":10449.514,"text":"明顯的變差我也希望就是說這個不是只有環境部的這個責任應該能源這邊或者是台電我覺得都應該要大家都要有責任那另外就是說我看到一個另外一個就是說"},{"start":10450.615,"end":10467.189,"text":"在之前我有詢問過我們部長就是說移動污染源的這個部分然後可能很多來自於汽機車那這個汽機車的這個污染其實我們也希望就是說這個老舊的汽機車我們也希望就是能夠逐年汰換那這個其實也是一個這個"},{"start":10471.092,"end":10482.015,"text":"空氣污染一個很大的一個主要原因另外就是說在我們環境部在之前也有在鼓勵工業用的這個鍋爐鍋爐的這個鈦換可能由燃油換為這個燃氣那我想請教就是說像這"},{"start":10490.378,"end":10508.41,"text":"這個這一部分你們目前做的狀況是怎樣我知道說好像是2030年希望就是說全部燃油是不是可以全部換為燃氣那這個狀況你們目前做的這個進度是怎樣報告委員那個淨零的策略裡面有一項就是所謂的非電力的製造業這種所謂的"},{"start":10510.632,"end":10533.468,"text":"鍋爐全部改換成燃氣這個是我們既定的政策那我舉例例如說像我們目前的空瓶從103年的24維克PM2.5降到現在12.8其實如果以中部來看的話最大的貢獻其實有一個當年那個李應元署長當署長的時候他就是花了很多空污費去做這樣的一個改善其實這個成效是非常好的當然我知道"},{"start":10534.028,"end":10552.689,"text":"以彰化來說的話還有那我們未來呢應該會再逐步的加強管制的力道希望那個管換的這個機會換的速度可以更快一點點好那我們希望就是說不只是這個中部地區的空污的部分其實不只是只有中火啦或者是六清"},{"start":10553.63,"end":10568.777,"text":"也許還有其他的這個這個中融其實中融也是一個很大的這個空氣污染的一個這個非常大的一個主要原因啦對啊那像這部分的話你們針對中融的部分你們有做什麼樣的"},{"start":10569.737,"end":10579.822,"text":"要求他們要做什麼樣的這個改善嗎我們目前其實我有請我同仁找到一個例如說因為中榮也算是泛國營事業以目前國營事業113年的排放量跟105年相比台電是減72是最多的"},{"start":10584.665,"end":10605.903,"text":"那中融呢 減得比較少 大概只有18%那中鋼呢 就40%這個污染的量減少非常的多那其實這個部分呢 我們應該給好的要給墾丁更多如果像這樣 它跟別的 例如說跟中鋼比它18% 中鋼已經做到40%那我們會再督促它 能不能做出更有效的一個做法"},{"start":10606.243,"end":10621.621,"text":"所以我覺得就是這個空氣汙染的這個大戶其實我覺得你們應該要多用力一些其實不只只有中火其實我剛剛提到的這個中榮的這個部分其實也是一個非常這個空氣汙染的"},{"start":10625.204,"end":10651.382,"text":"這個非常嚴重的一個廠家所以我們也希望如果說你跟中鋼來比的話中鋼都可以做到這個百分之四十那為什麼中榮沒辦法做到所以我覺得環境部針對這部分應該還要再加強另外我想請教就是說去年監察院有針對我們環境部就是有關這個判定價制度就是一直好像沒有一個比較明確的"},{"start":10653.363,"end":10668.691,"text":"這個制定下來這個探定價一直都沒辦法很明確那另外就是說2050的這個淨零排放第二期的這個目標好像也這個2025年第二期都快結束了這個目標好像"},{"start":10669.431,"end":10683.527,"text":"好像還沒辦法去達到那我想請教部長針對這個監察院這邊的一個糾正那你們要怎麼去達成這樣子第二期的目標那另外就是有關探定價的這個制度你們什麼時候會定下來"},{"start":10684.728,"end":10711.178,"text":"因為探聽架其實是今年1月1號開始有探費開始實施所以探聽架已經完成了那這個是非常艱鉅的一個挑戰那委員跟委員報告其實監察院並沒有糾正啦是調查啦那目前其實我們的這個減量係數我們上一個2022年是跟2005年是減1.77那我們最新的數字2023年已經減到4.64那我們目前看2024初估可能會有到5到6%左右"},{"start":10711.658,"end":10733.857,"text":"那2025就今年我們因為那個要整個事情發生了之後要隔一年多經過所有的數據統計完才能出來所以我們目前推估2025年當然要看今年的景氣好不好目前我們推估應該有機會到8到9%左右所以當然離我們原來的階段改進目標希望到10一點點差距但是我們的確在減量的速度上"},{"start":10735.358,"end":10751.984,"text":"部長我想請教就是說你們有關這個2050的淨零我相信這是我們的目標嘛那之前也有特別提到就是說可能也因應這個美國關稅的這個議題那會不會因為這樣子然後有所這個會"},{"start":10754.646,"end":10760.953,"text":"這個步驟或者是這個時程是不是會有所做一個調整那另外就是說之前我們是針對500家針對500家去做那我不知道說你們針對這部分你們會不會做一個調整"},{"start":10769.362,"end":10793.552,"text":"幫委員第一個是說因為全世界目前沒有一個國家因為關稅或是說美國川普總統有任何的改變所以目前我們堅定的照這個速度走但是其實因為我們也知道我們現在其實要收碳費的企業依照去年排碳量統計現在剩下252家大概400多個工廠而已有稍微變少一點點目前我們是針對例如說有些會受到關稅影響的產業"},{"start":10795.333,"end":10807.197,"text":"那我們會給他特別的輔導甚至給他高碳洩漏係數的折扣所以這個目前呢但不過他每年都要提不是說現在就給他大傻逼這樣不是我們有一套的這個節奏所以我們會幫助產業度過這個難關是好那"},{"start":10810.838,"end":10824.613,"text":"部長 我想請教 就是說你之前也有特別提到 就是說高溫 台灣的高溫的這個議題那你本身也有提到就是說 環境部預計在6月要成立一個高溫對策聯盟那7月預計要推出高溫防護地圖"},{"start":10829.958,"end":10846.612,"text":"好那其實我看到這個的時候我想說這個好像跟那個氣象局好像比較有關合作一起合作就環境部跟我們氣象局這邊是一起合作的對還有很多的部會因為跟委員報告因為以前我們對於這種所謂的氣候變遷的東西"},{"start":10848.553,"end":10873.696,"text":"紙上談兵比較多啦我們是希望倒過來拿這個高溫試看看說我們把一次的很熱很熱的那幾天當成像颱風來的樣子一樣然後我們是不是可以實際來演練那演練完之後我們寫成明年的規劃案然後來執行這些事情好那像這樣子的話你們這個高溫對策聯盟你是有哪幾個單位是一起合作的"},{"start":10874.841,"end":10902.588,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前會包括就是政府各相關部會那也會邀集民間企業那也會邀集民間團體希望是說大家一起採取行動是是所以所以如果說從六月份如果你們成立這個高溫對策聯盟或者是七月這個高溫防護地圖那你們會希望就是說相關單位譬如說勞動部啊或者是相關企業在看到這樣子一個高溫"},{"start":10903.508,"end":10929.916,"text":"的部分然後可以希望企業怎麼去做或者是對於在室外工作的這些勞工能夠做什麼樣的防護你們是希望能夠透過這樣的一個防護地圖然後能夠給予什麼樣的一個建議或者是希望就譬如說勞動部如果看到這樣子的一個高溫的狀況的話那是不是未來有可能去放這個高溫架或者是"},{"start":10931.736,"end":10947.517,"text":"報告委員因為其實這個高溫以戶外的勞工為例他其實是遇到高溫應該有適當的一個休息時間那以我自己是氣象專業過去氣象專業的話我們認為台灣要放高溫假因為只有中午那幾個小時啦其實是有點困難啦"},{"start":10948.058,"end":10970.923,"text":"那其實我們會希望能夠保障國人的安全健康甚至說我們這次還有針對弱勢貧窮的族群特別是年長者因為他可能經濟狀況沒辦法那麼好去換那個節能的冷氣那他因此呢就不敢吹冷氣要省錢那反而造成他的很大的健康影響我們希望用大數據的方式把這些族群撈出來給他特別的服務"},{"start":10971.383,"end":10986.391,"text":"所以我們其實這次是導過來用行動來找出一些可行的做法然後明年提出一個實際上可行的方案所以你們這個是跨部會的可能就是環境部勞動部還有衛福部然後"},{"start":10988.464,"end":11000.794,"text":"地方政府也一起進來所以會有一些成效的話或者是跟民眾比較有切身關係或者是你剛剛講的針對長者的部分也許他可以換什麼樣的東西的話這個應該也是在明年度"},{"start":11004.477,"end":11024.135,"text":"才會有這樣實際的行動今年我們就是把實際上例如說像一個假設有幾天可能超過38度了那幾天我們就特別來做演練像颱風一樣我們缺什麼缺什麼缺什麼然後誰還做得不夠我們就提出一個檢討方案希望明年有這個經驗實際上來做不然的話我們過去可能都是紙上談兵"},{"start":11025.256,"end":11050.889,"text":"好那當然我們也第一次啦應該這個算是第一次政府這樣子投入那這個也是因應我們的氣候韌性所以我們希望說部長以你的專業然後提供給其他的部會或者是地方政府也許可以提供給勞動其實我第一次看到這個我第一個想到可能就是在高溫底下工作的這些"},{"start":11051.809,"end":11072.339,"text":"勞工啦所以這個也許對這些勞工是會有一個很大的一個幫助因為其實抗高溫已經變成是一個產業我們就發現台灣很多民間的廠商他們都做出來例如說夏天有一個冷氣衣穿在身上就不會那麼的熱或是說頭盔它有一些可以如果你快要中暑的"},{"start":11073.079,"end":11084.432,"text":"他就會給你警告那樣的一個方式我們希望把這個引進來給那個業界他們可以自己多購買這樣的東西這個也是一個高溫的產業希望他們可以自己起來好 謝謝謝謝部長好 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請林淑美來做詢問"},{"start":11101.991,"end":11105.092,"text":"好 謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好 部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後"},{"start":11131.282,"end":11145.712,"text":"預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寫很寬鬆就是你只要把"},{"start":11146.592,"end":11163.159,"text":"這個水泥窯 因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致"},{"start":11163.999,"end":11191.495,"text":"所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF"},{"start":11193.516,"end":11205.482,"text":"現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好 謝謝"},{"start":11211.519,"end":11234.196,"text":"向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後"},{"start":11235.037,"end":11235.977,"text":"限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定"},{"start":11252.443,"end":11275.923,"text":"那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道 我告訴你沒關係 這不是很重要糕餅類 化妝品 酒 加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊 電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦"},{"start":11276.997,"end":11299.986,"text":"我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面訂定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的"},{"start":11304.168,"end":11305.15,"text":"這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去"},{"start":11319.452,"end":11347.732,"text":"所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘 犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水 單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包 包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的"},{"start":11349.253,"end":11367.154,"text":"包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就"},{"start":11368.356,"end":11371.718,"text":"法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了"},{"start":11388.749,"end":11397.731,"text":"早就不合時宜了 部長 你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦 我現在草案另外一回事我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜 那種"},{"start":11416.394,"end":11423.257,"text":"茶飲 飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是 這個署長是是 那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種"},{"start":11441.857,"end":11446.518,"text":"現在就不只是那五類了啦 那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法那個類型你草案公告了嗎還沒有 那個類型的內容是說我再來這個跟委員這邊來報告好啦 你回去你不好啦 抱歉我現在說你們這個喔你們自己就不知道也不公告也不訂案所以你們在這裡跟我報告不好我現在要跟你說你們的荒謬就是執行院的荒謬"},{"start":11469.224,"end":11473.607,"text":"113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來 代表有符合規定才會來嗎"},{"start":11493.643,"end":11495.984,"text":"業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧"},{"start":11516.348,"end":11524.872,"text":"委員 這個因為我們最近很努力在弄那個資源循環推動法啦這個就資源循環啊 源頭減量啊細部啦 細部的你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格"},{"start":11541.22,"end":11546.605,"text":"112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類 俏西人的五類都五成 六成 四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新"},{"start":11570.341,"end":11573.425,"text":"大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材"},{"start":11586.083,"end":11589.786,"text":"包材的相關規則對包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔"},{"start":11603.696,"end":11631.544,"text":"禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長 韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用"},{"start":11633.244,"end":11658.351,"text":"要生死的人 那個包材 都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材 網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝 到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的 對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放 對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎 部長"},{"start":11659.864,"end":11676.438,"text":"這個我們來檢討好不好 這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去 溝通完成現在就PVC的管制 你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前 人就很多限制啦 台灣現在還在農耕農耕人二十幾年 還有那個食品包裝的還有藥材包裝的 還有生性的藥物的包裝"},{"start":11689.108,"end":11704.37,"text":"還有那個管子醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看 保庭你看要怎麼管理"},{"start":11705.439,"end":11733.622,"text":"各位報告 那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討 那就不要說了 要笑死人了啦我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品 還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案喔 要想好誰啦我現在要說的 聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC對健康案的環境危害最大保證 你要怎麼管"},{"start":11735.413,"end":11757.388,"text":"食品 衣材還有全面的禁用 包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都在等頭 別輕易的等頭喔各位報告 那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年 2001年 2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC"},{"start":11765.811,"end":11767.693,"text":"那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿 現實很骨感"},{"start":11785.737,"end":11797.722,"text":"你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊 大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去回收你們也有一個示範計畫 你知道叫什麼嗎"},{"start":11815.7,"end":11839.257,"text":"部長你不知道喔網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個"},{"start":11843.24,"end":11849.706,"text":"環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎"},{"start":11864.284,"end":11878.455,"text":"因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個"},{"start":11880.456,"end":11886.841,"text":"循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤"},{"start":11909.418,"end":11920.605,"text":"是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍 意思就是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋 你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊 因為比較用的嘛 比較用的可以循環使用啊"},{"start":11932.493,"end":11952.704,"text":"你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的 我們都同意"},{"start":11956.286,"end":11967.894,"text":"但是在循環經濟 循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎 4.02次"},{"start":11973.118,"end":11999.353,"text":"那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔"},{"start":12003.719,"end":12004.643,"text":"我先看數字好了 來"},{"start":12006.26,"end":12012.423,"text":"台北市這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一咖希望歸還回來25.7% 循環不到一次一百咖出去了 只有25.7%新北市26.6% 桃園8.6% 台中32.0% 台南20.2%平均23.6%"},{"start":12034.554,"end":12036.735,"text":"我們都要4.02次 4.68次你對環境負擔 你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶 怎麼辦怎麼辦 保證 你的政策有問題啊"},{"start":12051.724,"end":12070.427,"text":"你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升"},{"start":12071.744,"end":12076.325,"text":"這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好 其實沒有啊回收的據點 數量 分布 服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵"},{"start":12096.351,"end":12104.235,"text":"所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你有循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放"},{"start":12112.287,"end":12134.618,"text":"在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱"},{"start":12137.199,"end":12157.772,"text":"要以大代小 以公代私 屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎 沒有以公代私 你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎 部長 五十六 六十五件 六十五件這樣有辦法推動這個示範計畫"},{"start":12163.069,"end":12176.206,"text":"這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說"},{"start":12180.671,"end":12195.758,"text":"實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用 以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢 除了這些宣示 天方夜譚議員 你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎"},{"start":12201.101,"end":12219.113,"text":"你的營運的模式還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖都沒有啊所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範而且是負面的示範負面的啦 負面的啦"},{"start":12220.135,"end":12231.08,"text":"報告委員 我上任之後過去一年有好幾次跟電商平台在討論這個事你們跟幾個電商平台在討論 哪幾個所有電商平台現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會它有一個無電面工會"},{"start":12236.98,"end":12246.749,"text":"有啦 人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站就對了但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦"},{"start":12255.55,"end":12267.176,"text":"比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個希望拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏 我也就去網購屈臣氏你聽到嗎 因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西 我如果要走到屈臣氏 我也就去網購所以沒有店面的 沒有實體通路的"},{"start":12283.377,"end":12310.515,"text":"那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這間是你自己沒有管道的"},{"start":12311.075,"end":12331.965,"text":"OK我知道啦 因為那個是以前的報告啦 我會再來注意 找一天跟委員再特別討論對啦 我的19案 剛才的19案 改為討論事項OK 謝謝不要再讓林委員笑了啦 好 謝謝接下來請圖群集委員圖群集委員圖群集委員不在來請陳委員來做詢問"},{"start":12338.168,"end":12339.109,"text":"我們12點5分會處理這個解凍案,謝謝謝謝主席,麻煩請部長來請部長"},{"start":12351.125,"end":12369.949,"text":"陳委員好我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事就是那個謝謝部長幫助我們台東那特別這個掩埋場的問題其實我們有很漂亮的風景但是這個整個海岸線很漂亮但是呢也謝謝部長表達立場對於這個破壞環境的這個開發案"},{"start":12377.23,"end":12398.039,"text":"不予以支持那再來就是我們的這個都立掩埋場的部分我想我們那天大家去曬太陽然後聞那個惡臭其實即便我們離開了那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞久久無法散去我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持好改善這個掩埋場的問題那再來"},{"start":12400.84,"end":12418.388,"text":"一個很重要就是說這個要大大的肯定部長因為我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵但是就是說我們沒有回收業是不行的可是大家又對於這個行業其實又很嫌棄"},{"start":12419.688,"end":12448.087,"text":"那么他们导致说这些回收业者常被赶到山边海边那最后呢就卡在这个环保用地换句话说就是没有工厂登记证那在去年四月的时候蓝营署长他有带着两个组长还有两个科长还有一位非常优秀的你们的这个事权记证一起把那个整个计划做出来那当然我们办公室也花很多的力气跟时间参与了这个沟通"},{"start":12450.108,"end":12469.485,"text":"計劃的撰寫最後通過這個勞動部的同意讓這批沒有這個場登的這些資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工作為行政的行政院的5加2的創新產業那這個循環經濟的部分也增添了這個生力軍"},{"start":12470.966,"end":12487.237,"text":"所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情那也希望也謝謝賴署長那也希望部長就是說能夠繼續能夠支持照顧回收業者從還有這個從業人員的這個部分那外籍勞工重視他們的這個職安還有這個勞動條件等等也謝謝就是在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":12500.185,"end":12526.999,"text":"好那另外就是我們最近是為了這個台灣空氣品質的亞洲排名部長以這個2024年台灣的這個PM2.5的平均濃度已經下降到12.8微克立方公尺相較於2013年的24微克有明顯改善那也並且呼籲大家說少用少說這個用費發電這樣的詞彙引起了一些關注跟討論"},{"start":12528.54,"end":12549.947,"text":"事实上数据会说话我们的空气品质指标PM2.5也的确是有下降这也是不真的事实只是说我们的这个指标难道是只有PM2.5吗其他空气中的臭氧悬浮微粒还有一氧化碳二氧化硫以及二氧化碳等等这些浓度的数值也都"},{"start":12556.049,"end":12570.302,"text":"可以根據對人體的這個健康還有影響程度分別換算出不同的污染物的這個空氣品質指標那我想要請教部長就是說其他的這個污染指標是否也有一起下降呢報告委員"},{"start":12570.862,"end":12596.349,"text":"其實第一個是我們用PM2.5因為PM2.5它有直接的排放因為它是小於2.5微克的micron的小微粒那它對身體直接吸到肺泡衝擊是非常的大所以一般PM2.5它包含直接的排放還有衍生性的衍生性包含流氧化物、氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為做一個代表"},{"start":12598.289,"end":12622.775,"text":"至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主例如說發電業流氧化物大概在四成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表"},{"start":12624.095,"end":12649.248,"text":"這樣大概有一些概念那目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的這個空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊那我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了"},{"start":12649.608,"end":12678.163,"text":"那我們希望他們運作的順利之後來再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後"},{"start":12678.783,"end":12706.254,"text":"大概没机会会会会我们今年一定会做一定会做好谢谢那我觉得就是说之所以会引起关注主要是我们火力发电最近有比较多的使用那在这个煤燃烧所产生的这些污染物包括这个悬浮微粒跟二氧化硫对空气品质造成比较明显的影响那炭煤炭的品质其实影响很大"},{"start":12706.934,"end":12727.466,"text":"那火力發電設備的燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有評估跟掌握"},{"start":12729.612,"end":12753.365,"text":"因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠"},{"start":12754.065,"end":12767.301,"text":"因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少"},{"start":12768.735,"end":12788.947,"text":"因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估"},{"start":12789.887,"end":12802.637,"text":"那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解我為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說"},{"start":12805.379,"end":12830.031,"text":"我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的"},{"start":12831.472,"end":12843.141,"text":"馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定"},{"start":12849.165,"end":12876.824,"text":"讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒"},{"start":12879.766,"end":12900.382,"text":"就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準"},{"start":12901.283,"end":12909.84,"text":"這個部分我們會 因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商這個部分我們未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行"},{"start":12911.052,"end":12933.803,"text":"好 那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是它卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢"},{"start":12935.462,"end":12960.484,"text":"因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有"},{"start":12962.001,"end":12982.117,"text":"因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣對啊但是因為你未來要減碳"},{"start":12984.508,"end":13001.646,"text":"那你怎麼去看那個績效 因為這裡沒有對跟不對的問題 就是說你是因為把它改名了 把它證明了 或者你又用其他的方式去看未來減碳的績效"},{"start":13003.969,"end":13017.921,"text":"因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm了"},{"start":13019.202,"end":13041.852,"text":"所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是"},{"start":13044.606,"end":13063.558,"text":"所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術他就是說只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資"},{"start":13064.518,"end":13082.878,"text":"理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪"},{"start":13084.717,"end":13112.991,"text":"僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對 不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分好"},{"start":13113.271,"end":13136.821,"text":"好謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回應喔謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告稍等十分鐘要處理那個解凍案喔抱歉喔來來請葉恩之委員來做詢問主席好麻煩請找那個環境部長來請部長"},{"start":13142.016,"end":13164.862,"text":"業務員好部長好因為我跟你講現在大家都很關心人員的問題嘛那因為飛河之後到底空污會不會變比較嚴重大家都很關心那我其實是蠻期許環境博士站在市民的角度民眾的角度去真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估然後跟外界做解釋盡量不要去做台電的化妝師"},{"start":13167.163,"end":13185.127,"text":"第一個部長你好像上個禮拜有提到說我們現在PM2.5是12.8微克比很多國際在亞洲是僅次於日本我必須說委包委員其實還有一個國家新加坡但是新加坡因為他在熱帶每天下雨跟我們日韓或是我們東亞的國家比較不一樣部長你這個比較基礎是什麼"},{"start":13188.448,"end":13211.623,"text":"我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站 那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣 他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克 你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右"},{"start":13212.143,"end":13239.725,"text":"8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像"},{"start":13240.586,"end":13257.683,"text":"金門那邊就比較差所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9就大於你所公布的平均12.8"},{"start":13259.244,"end":13286.307,"text":"那我跟環境部還是要說實話啦報委員這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那那個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為飛蛾家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境它PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義"},{"start":13287.128,"end":13301.846,"text":"我只是覺得如果說環境部要公布類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公布我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠"},{"start":13303.41,"end":13329.779,"text":"大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言"},{"start":13330.459,"end":13359.352,"text":"否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對 報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說還要再做"},{"start":13360.853,"end":13378.763,"text":"但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用一個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加"},{"start":13379.483,"end":13399.04,"text":"那飛河之後如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我去了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下"},{"start":13399.56,"end":13428.527,"text":"那沒有新的發電方式本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好"},{"start":13429.548,"end":13446.489,"text":"我覺得不能這樣欸那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到12.8那其實這個12.8是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少"},{"start":13448.531,"end":13476.668,"text":"減少嘛對所以不能用這個東西來當作絕對不是只有一個說燃煤拉電因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少譬如2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的燃煤機組重新拿出來的燃煤沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航最好"},{"start":13477.268,"end":13503.261,"text":"希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAX、NAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體量量到的數值"},{"start":13504.642,"end":13533.478,"text":"增加如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝謝謝好謝謝楊委員欸葉委員謝謝因為我受到楊委員的干擾接下來請楊委員來做審打時間有限生命更是有限好謝謝主席主席請教彭部長"},{"start":13534.755,"end":13550.033,"text":"部長時間有限姚委員好部長好部長在520前夕貴部有召開記者會就向國人報告環境部過去一年的成果那"},{"start":13552.254,"end":13568.246,"text":"記者會的部分我來問一下,現在由環境部主導的抗高溫對策聯盟即將要成立你們要負責統合各部會的相關事務"},{"start":13571.529,"end":13588.74,"text":"包括勞動部提出戶外工作的防護措施衛福部也提高提升弱勢族群的任性經濟部則針對產業衝擊等等都有提供一些相關的資料給你們我請問一下這個對抗"},{"start":13592.796,"end":13613.499,"text":"抗高溫對策聯盟實際上的運作模式以及政策目標到底是什麼因為我來自民間我看到我們政府面對那種極端天氣的調適我必須說很多的報告書但是真實的作為像國際的調適都要有一些資金有一些行動可是我們"},{"start":13614.42,"end":13629.19,"text":"比較少那我們就這次用一個方式就是說我們實際上來操作假設高溫一個極端天氣像颱風一樣我們政府怎麼去面對我們從實際上的經驗找出來一個方式然後我們再把整個方式把它具體化"},{"start":13630.33,"end":13649.116,"text":"這個其實也跨部會然後也結合了民間的產業還有各行各業一起來了解還有地方政府我們就希望說我們今年先來把一個高溫一個事件超過38度等等的當成一個颱風來應變之後我們再找出一些方案希望明年之後把它寫成一些規範然後就變成一個政策"},{"start":13650.387,"end":13672.633,"text":"部長你的想法本席其實是非常贊同就是說包括公部門花了太多時間在做研究資料可是實際的動作作為太少這個我覺得要改變這種思維啦就是盡可能的不要花太多時間在資料的"},{"start":13674.714,"end":13699.653,"text":"當然這一部分也很重要,可是不能只做到這一部分就沒有其他的希望我們有關抗高溫對策聯盟可以實際運作的好也希望明年真的可以逐年的把它有一部分的措施出來我之前就有倡議過"},{"start":13702.165,"end":13730.46,"text":"有關社福身份家庭的節能家電的補助所以我也看到我們這個政策平台有關衛福部的部分就是提升弱勢族群的韌性我想要請教一下部長雖然這個是衛福部跟經濟部的主管業務那你負責平台我想要請問一下就是說"},{"start":13733.063,"end":13744.48,"text":"假如衛福部針對或者是我這樣子問好了就是部長覺得衛福部是不是應該要針對有社福"},{"start":13745.655,"end":13770.12,"text":"身份的家庭提供更多節能家電的喚醒補助報告委員其實這有幾個部分第一個是我們發現委員你之前提醒我們的有一些比較弱勢的族群他不可能去買節能家電因為他要花一筆錢當然他就不想開冷氣或是他如果要開冷氣他其實就要花出更多的成本比我們來得多"},{"start":13771.22,"end":13798.793,"text":"所以基本上但是政府的預算又有限我不能夠例如說收入多少我就補助更多所以我們現在改變一個做法第一個是我們跟內政部合作去撈數據撈數據就是說到底幾個弱勢的或是獨居老人例如說我們現在針對獨居的老人為主先他來做來示範那如果找到這個老人之後那就衛福部幫我們去找到那個老人然後幫忙看能不能需要補助那這個補助就會從這個地方政府"},{"start":13799.153,"end":13817.147,"text":"因為地方政府有的補助的錢還蠻多的那有的是能源署那邊那他們呢就會對於例如說冷氣像有些地方政府可以補助一兩萬塊的可以換一台冷氣所以我們先由這種方式示範來處理但是這個最源頭還是要找到那個人啊所以要去算要找到人也要找到財源嘛對對對"},{"start":13819.468,"end":13831.631,"text":"不過這個就是逐步來做因為弱勢家庭的家電太換了除了有關抗高溫以外其實它也有老舊電器的風險所以這個希望部長能夠"},{"start":13839.053,"end":13850.755,"text":"落實這個平台跟跨部會我今天只是講到因為我之前就有講過社福家庭的家電補助所以就用這個跟部長做個探討"},{"start":13852.065,"end":13870.214,"text":"部長我在5月中旬環境部也發表了空氣品質白皮書當中有42項未來的行動方案要在未來10年裡面改善我國的空氣品質"},{"start":13874.447,"end":13898.906,"text":"白皮書裡面提到的議題之一就是重視兒少的呼吸權這個當然很重要精進校園周圍的空汙管理我想請問一下學童的呼吸率跟代謝機能跟成人都不同所以他們是更需要被保護的一群"},{"start":13900.014,"end":13916.392,"text":"那空品區呢就是一定的就是汽機車假如沒有經過一定的檢驗以後是不能進去的對不對在校園的500公尺以內怎麼管制啊"},{"start":13921.216,"end":13933.74,"text":"這個齁 在那個 有些縣市 我不用講哪些縣市 罰蠻多的例如說AutoBike沒有去電檢 它就不能進去 會開罰的那他們是用人力還是用那個 車牌辨識車牌辨識 對對對是"},{"start":13939.895,"end":13961.291,"text":"因為每一部車子他有沒有做過訂件我知道那他是怎麼撈出來的就從放在學校的附近然後經過在某些時間經過的話那他就會抓到了然後那個地方環保局就會開罰所以他是活動式的類似固定式的應該固定式的固定喔固定式一台幾十萬塊"},{"start":13962.792,"end":13973.037,"text":"一台幾十萬塊,所以不是像交通部那種科技執法的機器這也算是一種科技執法對,可是不是像檢證署,因為現在就是各都會"},{"start":13981.568,"end":13996.705,"text":"車流比較多的路口都會有科技執法那個很貴我還以為你們是用我們沒有用到那麼貴的大概幾十萬因為我也擔心因為這個概念是很好的"},{"start":13997.345,"end":14007.792,"text":"可是怎麼執行總是要有辦法執行目前有些縣市有這樣做發滿多的我覺得部長應該鼓勵這些縣市假如說執行花費的機器的設備"},{"start":14022.38,"end":14033.566,"text":"經費不是很高 應該要大量使用這個才能夠落實我們空瓶區的構想好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":14050.697,"end":14077.603,"text":"好本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉祥 朴全吉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在作為下決議第一報告及詢答完畢第二委員質詢未及答物或請補充資料則請相關機關於兩週內以書面答物委員另要求期限則從期所定那我們接下來要處理討論事項G8案請在宣讀的時候環境部要不要直接先去溝通還是怎麼樣你們就斟酌嘿好請一併宣讀"},{"start":14080.622,"end":14091.794,"text":"討論事項處理環境部韓威114年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結專案報告案8案一第18款第一項新增決議329業務費凍結30%二第18款第二項新增決議356業務費凍結30%三第18款第三項新增決議362業務費凍結30%"},{"start":14104.426,"end":14108.129,"text":"4.第18款第4項新增決議375化學物質管理署向下業務費凍結30%5.第18款第5項新增決議382業務費凍結30%6.第18款第6項新增決議392國家環境研究院向下業務費凍結30%7.第18款第1項決議15空氣品質保護及噪音管制預算凍結600萬元"},{"start":14130.703,"end":14158.553,"text":"八第十八款第三項決議二十三資源循環及廢棄物管理向下循環處理凍結二百萬元宣讀完畢好那我們現在就進行討論事項八案之主案處理第一案就同意動之有無異議沒有好那無異議就同意動之第二案有無異議沒有那就一樣同意動之第三案有無異議沒有就同意動之"},{"start":14160.37,"end":14179.055,"text":"第四案有依沒有那就同意動之第五案有依那就同意動之第六案有依那就同意動之第七案有依那就同意動之接下來第八案有依沒有好那我們就一樣同意動之好 註以下決議均同意動之並提報院會"},{"start":14190.54,"end":14211.671,"text":"現在處理剛才保留的報告事項,剛剛有再加入林委員的第19案,你們有先去溝通嗎?還是就直接要處理了?如果剛剛照林委的講法,那個草案沒有提出來是沒辦法處理的。"},{"start":14215.563,"end":14241.197,"text":"沒有來就沒有處理,但是他們要自己去面對我們那個就預告完再解凍好不好對,你看有沒有現在是負貸局議案,謝謝報告主席"},{"start":14243.393,"end":14261.14,"text":"不是,剛剛是林淑芬的我是提醒,剛剛他有提到那一案,你們如果有時間溝通,我就等一下就沒有再處理這個,在報告事項裡面去處理了我們那案就預告後再解凍預告後再解凍所以?那你們什麼時候會預告?"},{"start":14273.259,"end":14297.696,"text":"兩個月的時間喔不是現在就是要確定說假如說我們今天是通過預告後解凍那你們是預告完了以後就解凍了所以你們要兩個月以後解凍"},{"start":14298.932,"end":14321.969,"text":"我們要辦理預告完以後才可以解凍那我們需要兩個月的時間來研發所以預告完以後就不用再到委員會了對不對對剛剛委員很像就是這個意思要還是要所以所以就是那就是等於這個解凍案現在是保留的喔你們覺得沒有關係就就保留"},{"start":14323.77,"end":14350.984,"text":"第19案第19案保留沒有關係沒有關係沒有關係大家沒有意見就那可以預告後如果我們預告後就自動解對我現在的意思就是這樣子就是說是預告後自動解凍這樣子這樣子不過這個要問要問主席跟議事人員假如今天我們做出來的結論是預告後解凍那還需不需要再送過來"},{"start":14353.231,"end":14378.988,"text":"需要嗎對這個要先確定好啊我們去找林委員再說明一下好不好再給我們一點時間我現在要進行了啊所以我才一直提醒人要不要先溝通的原因就這樣嘛"},{"start":14380.613,"end":14386.737,"text":"我就講你們就好像也不太搭理我主席不能先處理第一案,那他們去找領委員,領導委員,這樣他們還要溝通程序我再跟各位報告一下,基本上是這樣,原本院會交下來就是報告事項"},{"start":14403.444,"end":14427.993,"text":"那個別委員有意見我們就有幾案有提出來就像剛剛曾教授委員那我們就在討論事項完之後來處理這個報告事項那如果等下有意見那可能我們就保留擇期再審會變成這樣嘛這其一嘛那其二因為原本的這個審查的所約定的條件是說提出說明就是說你那個法案有提出來之後提出書面報告就可以解凍了啦"},{"start":14429.013,"end":14450.943,"text":"剛剛因為林委員有吹詢你們,你們是在時間內是沒有提出來嘛所以基本上他就是不讓你解凍嘛所以我才請你們去溝通,不然就會這個案會保留,會再遮起再處理啦就這樣嘛,這樣大家可以聽到所以我不是要提出說你們要進入討論事項,我就講說你要不要先去溝通一下,是這樣"},{"start":14453.007,"end":14471.116,"text":"包委我們現在正在去溝通當中那我們就先處理這個早上陳委員提出來的幾案來好謝謝我盡快謝謝主席我要先讀一下你再講不好意思不好意思來現在來處理剛才保留的報告事項那第一案委員有意見"},{"start":14474.737,"end":14479.659,"text":"如果有請發言我當時把環境影響評估整合與管理的業務費500萬做了這個凍結因為環境部現在定有所謂的環境影響評估審查的旁聽要點那這個旁聽要點是從2020年2月開始那所有的這個環評這個審查都線上直播如果要表達意見可以採書面等等這個做法我要表達抗議"},{"start":14499.366,"end":14516.901,"text":"因為那個時代是有特別的那個是疫情的時候很多的作業很多部門的作業都有一些權宜的做法是因應疫情而存在那現在衛福部已經宣布疫情結束那你如果把這個要點放在繼續限縮開始拿來公開限縮環評會的公民參與的模式"},{"start":14522.105,"end":14529.771,"text":"已經就變成已經失了這個公民參與的這個重心跟精神比較離譜的是部長你們還把這個不合時空便宜要點拿來做解凍報告的內容啦其實你把自己做小你還把當時的狀況拿來做這次解凍的內容"},{"start":14539.119,"end":14549.803,"text":"所以等於是我們感覺還是你還是在幫這個開發這個單位做剛剛葉委員我就用他的名詞吧因為你不喜歡我講那個你們這個叫化妝室那如果你不更正這個做法把公民關在會議室外面關在那個小房間這種然後看直播而且直播還是有lag的就有差距的時間那我覺得叫我解凍真的很困難所以我今天是有提一個附帶決議就是說希望你們修正之前的做法"},{"start":14566.61,"end":14595.709,"text":"那剛剛這個附帶決議等一下我跟主席報告因為剛剛經過溝通前三點我們做了文字修改那第四點你們也同意在這個新的辦法出來之前我們有一些這個可以做一些修正的地方所以那個附帶決議等一下我們就不用花費時間在處理那解凍案這個部分我是希望說在這個當中你們要提出新辦法當中這個是不是先按照這個就你們要回到這個公民參與的這個精神"},{"start":14596.79,"end":14600.852,"text":"所以你知道我的重點在什麼地方解凍報告你用那個舊的2020年2月的因為疫情而特有的方式你把它當解凍案的報告老實說作為一個盡責的委員如果我說沒事的話是我不盡責任因為我們現在也在做總體檢當中那個要到年底才會完成現在都是在試行所以這個委員我們會來改"},{"start":14622.725,"end":14643.07,"text":"那這個當中這個當中是不是就是讓他先回到2020年2月之前的做法不要再拿疫情方面特殊的做法當作常態這個我們來檢討好不好委員我們會來檢討這個方式這個很重要如果部長您同意的話我今天我就公開講我後面的就是11個那個解凍案我可以"},{"start":14643.63,"end":14659.87,"text":"都接受就是直接解凍因為這個是重點因為公民參與是重點他們今天也在外面我是不知情的我之前不知情他們今天也在外面做了抗議因為講來是有道理的而且你這兩次的環比有很多的爭議你就是避開了公民讓他們發言的機會參與的機會"},{"start":14663.548,"end":14676.344,"text":"其實他們都有發言但是因為那時候委員試行說能不能用這樣方式比較好那個發言就是他在外面然後時間到叫他進來然後又叫他出去然後他也沒辦法參與這個不是真正的公民參與根據你們要點公民參與這個我剛剛早上有跟你"},{"start":14680.368,"end":14702.057,"text":"參與才不是這種參與方法這個我們會通盤檢討啦 我跟你保證就是說因為那個我們現在在環評總體檢當中這個方式裡面的進行的細節也是討論的細節就是說現在到你們把新的辦法訂出來之前你要不要先回到2020年2月之前的方式那如果你說你的硬體設備空間放十幾個那個都可以討論"},{"start":14703.197,"end":14726.669,"text":"但是不是用現在的方式把他們關在一個小房間時間到你才准過來然後他看的直播不是真的直播沒有現在已經完全是即時的我們一個一個在改但是他沒有機會去回應對於開發單位的回應做一些討論等等有些參與因為他們不是列席也不叫旁聽你這個旁聽要點就已經把他的位階都降低了那個是環民委員審查一般民眾不是來審查的"},{"start":14727.489,"end":14735.345,"text":"當地居民很多當地居民你要篩選哪一些人可以因為空間的關係都可以討論所以你可不可以承諾說如果這樣的話那我其他11樣我就解凍啊"},{"start":14739.361,"end":14763.386,"text":"報告委員我有兩點說明第一點那個委員當初第一案的凍結案並不是民眾旁聽的部分那但是剛剛我們有跟委員溝通就是說民眾旁聽這個我們會檢討那在檢討之前我有剛剛有跟委員講因為市長你可不可以不要再講旁聽因為民眾是參與公民參與他不是旁聽在園園地上在海外就可以旁聽"},{"start":14764.406,"end":14783.895,"text":"我們因為當初現在試行這個方式是有試接之後有跟環評委員討論確定的那我們要修改也必須要有提出方案然後跟環評委員討論報告之後我們就可以修正環境審查這個整個作業就居民怎麼當當局居民熟悉這個地方怎麼參與不是環評委員會決定的是為環境部決定的這不是他們決定的"},{"start":14788.457,"end":14801.342,"text":"是我們就是因為開會當初造成混亂所以委員建議說在會場的人可以比較少一點所以那時候我們是想說那我們就試行看看因為早上他跟我說空間的問題那這個空間我們可以體會那我們現在有"},{"start":14803.863,"end":14810.805,"text":"有18個座位嘛那我們會協調那當然不可能說如果來好 協調然後讓他們從頭就是他們是參與者他不是旁聽就是說全程參與但是他發言的時候他才發言但是他可以救他開發單位講了一點他們當地住在很多居民他有疑問他可以問環評委也可以參考啊這個是等於當事人在那邊這個現在就是這個樣子啊只是說有沒有進去而已因為那個我們現在只有18個位置你在外面"},{"start":14834.012,"end":14855.497,"text":"那你再讓他移到一個關到一個小房間然後一進一出這樣這個發言方式不是沒有辦法互動啦因為我們遇到兩個就是說正反兩邊齁都放在同一個地方會完結啦如果維繫規則因為那天改變遊戲規則而且事先有一些不公平的資料跑錯我都有寄給你嘛就說有一些內部人"},{"start":14856.877,"end":14861.862,"text":"因為那邊有問題所以民眾沒有辦法接受你們應該覺得有重大的疑慮出現作假或作弊資料出現的時候應該是要有一些權益的做法你們那邊沒有嘛就直接過而且還17比0我才形容說這個是習近平跟金正恩的會議啊17比0啊所以那天才會造成那麼大的問題啊"},{"start":14880.88,"end":14897.98,"text":"就一定有原因的就不能單方面說那天混亂等等不要把那個異常的狀況當作常態了解 所以委員我們剛剛有協商就是我們會朝這個方向去努力去修正而且給我們一些時間我們盡快來辦法好 包委員這個我就朝你的方向來努力好不好"},{"start":14898.561,"end":14903.302,"text":"那部長就很清楚就是說你們在擬定這個會議的時候可不可以要求公民團體的代表你可以選擇誰由你們來挑沒關係公民團體也在裡面現在所有會議包括健保、藥物會議都有stakeholder就是都有病人參與都有當事人參與好嗎你們這個成員也要稍微比較公正一點因為我們都是網路上公開讓誰都可以去登記的啦"},{"start":14921.286,"end":14944.947,"text":"所以我們並沒有說有一個Stay Holder他都是自己上看到那個東西去登記所以我要確定那個成員有這樣的比率那如果說有一堆人先進去就你要確定每一個角色都在就是每一個角色因為我真的有再去跟他們討論重新檢討這個過程因為我們現在都是自己上網去登錄就有點是搶票的感覺有時候就爆量所以我們現在是全面每一個環節希望來檢討"},{"start":14946.648,"end":14975.636,"text":"就是說每一個角色對 你在這個會議當中每一個多元角色因為每個有他的角色有學者嘛 有專家但是也有當事人嘛就住在那裡就是每個角色都有人出席這樣可以嗎 這個是合理的嗎我就朝這個委員的您給我們的這個提點的方式來這個在憲法很多都是這樣啊每一個不同的病人代表什麼每個醫院各級都在裡面這樣可以嗎抱歉啊 蔡委員那個補貼人給你回三百他會盡量朝你的想法去處理你也不確定他不確定各位委員放心因為這個齁 這個需要"},{"start":14976.036,"end":15004.314,"text":"多方的溝通協商啦啊這個其實是我如果定我說好主席謝謝你因為我決定如果他這個答應了這個綜合不諜我其他其實一個案我都接受整個直接解凍就不討論了好啦委員我就直接說我就朝著你的方向你提點的方向來前進好部長那一點點時間因為這個要溝通好不好給我們一點點時間我會檢討相關你就往這個方向謝謝你啦好謝謝委員謝謝主席好謝謝那我早上提的那個那些案子都"},{"start":15005.214,"end":15017.319,"text":"就OK了好 早上我提了 今天這個重點在這裡沒有了就沒有了他們剛剛兩個就在互代決議了互代決議也沒有了嗎就沒有了 還在問 誰在問的 哪一個問的互代決議已經好了幹什麼就沒有互代決議了 他們兩招已經講好了溝通好了所以我們早上"},{"start":15042.909,"end":15062.484,"text":"跟趙偉跟各委員報告剛才已經跟林淑芬委員報告那也就是19案的部分就是我們預告後就解凍然後不用再送委員會決議是有過但是就是留著他不是不見喔那個文字我們都兩邊都溝通好了"},{"start":15065.518,"end":15080.048,"text":"那就麻煩你,那個市長你宣讀一下接受互代區,那就必須要宣讀啊因為你們送出來的互代區域,剛剛曾委員講說有4點我們這邊的資料不是有4點啊那你念一下,謝謝你那你們自己宣讀吧,好不好我是說剛才補充到從委員已經公布了"},{"start":15095.771,"end":15111.659,"text":"那現在先宣讀嗎來請針對地案的負責區請宣讀鑑於環境部為環境環評中央主管機關環境部及地方環保局上傳環評書件資料在環境部網站供社會大眾下載並閱讀並接受報名參加會議但環評審查方式"},{"start":15118.155,"end":15145.937,"text":"應落實公民參與原提案要求環境部應檢討目前公民參與的環評方式並重視下列公民參與方式一不管公民團體代表或居民的發言開發單位應與會議回覆提問與會議紀錄及環評書件也要書面回覆二受開發案影響之當地居民與環保團體"},{"start":15148.697,"end":15172.142,"text":"開發單位應重視其發言並予以回應以強化公民參與權益三 換言之公民團體代表或居民參加環評會議環境部或地方環保局都不經協商將之安排到正式會議室之外除非官方宣稱的疫情期間之防範等特殊情形以外"},{"start":15172.902,"end":15196.549,"text":"第四點有關部長於答詢時表示會檢討公民參與相關辦法應與公民團體共同討論並避免發生如光明殿場案等排除公民團體進入會議參與之狀況宣讀完畢好各位同仁包括事項第一案行政機關已經有待宣讀這個互代決議各位有異議"},{"start":15198.442,"end":15216.299,"text":"沒有 那我們第一案就通過了然後這個負債決議也一併來通過然後 早上有針對其他的11案應該 各位委員是不是均與同意嘛均與同意 有異議沒有 謝謝"},{"start":15222.674,"end":15246.533,"text":"好 那第十九案 第十九案就照林淑文委員的這樣的要求之後來同意通知就這樣嗎 好 OK可以齁 可以齁 好 OK 好好 現在做一下決定均同意通知並提報院會那本次會議到此結束現在散會 謝謝"},{"start":15250.247,"end":15250.327,"text":"對齁,對齁,你比較對齁"}]}},{"id":"16706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16706","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcd64e5377f4e25464445fc32f41448fc0a12e9ca99aa835c0b145d90652166d605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共10案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-26T08:30:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-26T12:15:00+08:00","duration":13484,"影片長度":"03:44:44","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 - 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那個主席各位委員各位先敬禮大家早安那今天逢要列席貴委員會呢就今天的那個專題做那個報告代表本院做報告那以下那個說明敬請那個指教"},{"start":2091.798,"end":2103.566,"text":"跟騷法從111年6月1號施行到114年3月為止各地方法院受理的申請案件有471件 終結458件其中核發了318件 約有7成平均一件的受理天數是34.72天"},{"start":2116.255,"end":2134.927,"text":"根稍法第12條的第一項,保護令有12款,其中核發最多的禁止監視等行為有328件另外禁止以盯梢等方式接近特定人住所等場所的有301件"},{"start":2137.335,"end":2149.093,"text":"那實施迄今法院面臨的那個困境呢法院雖然可以依根梢法第十二條第一項第三款核發命相對人完成治療性的處遇計畫那這個治療性的那個處遇計畫呢"},{"start":2152.759,"end":2180.792,"text":"他項目有包括精神治療戒癮治療其他治療三種但是內容並不具體那在不清楚相對人的病情跟目前可以提供儲育內容的情況底下法院比較難去以該款來裁定並相對人完成治療性的儲育計畫也因此目前法院全部核發的就只有三件"},{"start":2181.892,"end":2208.52,"text":"接下來法院依這個規定在審理終結前它是可以命相對人接受有沒有必要施以治療性處遇計畫的鑑定可是鑑定費用金額不低而且申請人通常也不願意相對人都不願意繳納所以目前相對人去鑑定的比例並不高"},{"start":2210.321,"end":2231.376,"text":"本院持續收集在辦理耕燒事件的時候所面臨的相關困難在參與內政部所訂的諮詢小組會議的時候都會提供參考另外在後續耕燒法修法過程中本院也會適時反映實務運作所遇到的情形跟法院的意見 其實耕燒法"},{"start":2233.277,"end":2248.702,"text":"制度可以妥適的那個修法並落實立法目的以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位好謝謝王副秘書長我們接下來請法務部政務次長黃士傑次長報告"},{"start":2257.314,"end":2273.84,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今日奉邀致貴委員會就跟蹤騷擾防治法實施三週年後其制度成效實務偵查審判混進及未來修法展望代表法務部進行列席報告並被質詢 致報告如下"},{"start":2275.28,"end":2291.888,"text":"因為行政院在107年就提出了這個草案歷經三年審議之後於110年11月19日大院以《耕種騷擾防治法》三讀通過於同年12月1日經總統公佈制定全文23條並於111年6月1日施行至今即將屆滿三周年"},{"start":2296.67,"end":2322.931,"text":"那更法實施後本部所屬各地方檢察署與各地的司法警察機關共同合作強力執法提升打擊性暴力犯罪之力道以來維護社會大眾的人身安全保障人民的生活安寧那麼更稍法實施後呢我們首先舉辦了相關的教育訓練提升檢察官對於更收法的這個熟悉程度所以在當年的"},{"start":2323.331,"end":2348.161,"text":"是111年的2月14日、16日、22日、23日就在北中南東舉辦的新法說明會那麼也在台高檢署在2月18日這個婦幼保護督導小組的會議中對與會的全國的婦幼專組的主任警察官還有司法警察為新法來檢戒那麼分別於111年的2月25日111年3月8日也在司法官學院"},{"start":2348.961,"end":2365.669,"text":"辦理課程對於學習司法官及參加在職訓練之檢察官來進行檢介又於同年的8月17日在本部舉行這個婦幼保護及性別平等研習會中來向參訓的檢察官來檢介那麼另外呢也在這個"},{"start":2367.97,"end":2387.039,"text":"以110年的12月27日跟111年4月15日派員來列席化步會的檢討會跟意見交流座談會各地檢署亦多與各地司法檢查機關合作辦理多場次的教育訓練跟座談會以提升大家執法的意識跟共識"},{"start":2388.34,"end":2407.866,"text":"另外台高檢署每半年就會召開一次婦幼保護督導小組的會議藉此來督導各地檢署積極偵辦跟騷法的案件並透過此等會議作為各地檢署司法警察機關及衛生福利部及各地地方政府等機關間相互交換意見的平台"},{"start":2408.806,"end":2418.053,"text":"那麼每年我們也是持續在辦理相關的教育訓練來提升甲官偵辦相關案件的專業的智能那麼從111年6月到114年的3月目前最新的統計的數據如書面報告所載總計有增結了3692件其中起訴了848件是佔了22.9%"},{"start":2435.888,"end":2457.229,"text":"但是因為根燒法的特性,它觸犯根燒行為的時候經常都會跟其他罪名共同共犯,差罪名的情形蠻多的所以如果我們把其他罪名共同來甄解的件數加進去的話"},{"start":2458.81,"end":2481.981,"text":"請參與書面資料總計的起訴率應該是31.5%所以這個跟其他相關的案件數其他新犯件的起訴率其實並沒有顯著的較低那未來在偵查事務上因為包括更少在內的性別暴力犯罪案件多具隱密性跟主觀翻譯不易證明的特性所以本部持續"},{"start":2483.101,"end":2504.504,"text":"辦理相關的教育訓練跟各機關的聯繫以提升甲官辦案的專業資能如前所述因為這個更少法主要是內政部的主管法規所以在執行層面本部將積極配合提供相關執行和法制意見作為未來可能的修法或是執行的參考以上報告 請請指教 謝謝"},{"start":2506.421,"end":2513.33,"text":"好 謝謝我們華國王 黃士傑次長接下來我們請內政部政務次長 馬思源次長"},{"start":2522.012,"end":2547.803,"text":"主席 我們大院各位委員先生 女士先生 還有我們媒體界的朋友 大家早安今天應邀到我們貴委員會來列席報告跟跟燒議題有關以及警政工作的關注感謝委員的重視我想首先針對這個跟燒法的調查跟即時保護機制本部的警政署在跟燒法三讀通過之後目前積極的推動負荷專責警力的增補跟員警的培訓工作"},{"start":2548.583,"end":2565.669,"text":"希望能夠從各方面來落實《耕燒法》的一個執行以目前來講的話,我們目前從制度、實務跟修法三個方面提出我們這次的專題報告在制度的部分,因為我們目前《耕燒法》是以防制性別暴力為立法的意旨"},{"start":2566.229,"end":2585.14,"text":"所以是以性與性別相關明定行為過程要件至於有無跟蹤騷擾行為那一並衡量被害人的主觀感受以合理被害人為檢視的標準我們在執行成效的部分一直到今年的4月30日為止我們目前總共有8488件"},{"start":2586.941,"end":2609.289,"text":"的這個案件那總共核發了5555件的告誡書那其中有522件的告誡書呢事實上是有被違反的那這裡面還有並同家暴相關的議題在裡面那在雙方當事人的關係目前還是以家庭成員關係為最多那陌生人關係次之那不過這個樣的關係本身的"},{"start":2610.229,"end":2635.734,"text":"比例目前也在改變那有陌生人跟同事關係的案件的比例目前也在增加當中所以在樣態的部分警方目前在根據我們目前所蒐集到的樣態在做分析那可以看得出在樣態部分有一些變化那實務困境的部分有幾第一個就是說在治療性處遇的省錢淨淨費用支應的方式那目前是以被愛人支應為主那我們現在在跟衛福部召開"},{"start":2636.614,"end":2660.784,"text":"跨部會的會議在延伸我們暫行指引並且能夠希望改革這個部分的一個內容那第二個就是處理計畫的執行範圍那目前因為處理計畫它的效果跟其他的這些法律之間的處理計畫事實上有一些競合關係所以這部分需要進一部分的研討那修法的部分包含各機關的權責分工那機關合作以及我們修正"},{"start":2662.673,"end":2691.075,"text":"跟燒行為的太陽依據我們實務所收集到的案例那以及完善的書面告誡救濟制度跟延長救濟的時間跟決定時間以及我們充實跟跟燒保護令相關的款項那以及加重現行的跟燒罪的刑度那在其他的有關於被害人保護措施的部分那我們也研議增訂凶器跟燒的嫌疑人或者是沒有被羈押或羈押期滿通知以後要通知被害人的規定"},{"start":2691.915,"end":2720.494,"text":"那以及嚴議增訂廣播電視宣傳出版網路以及其他媒體不得報導記載被害人之姓名或其他組織識別被害人身份的資訊來訂定罰則那這是我們的修法那未來希望持續跨部會的合作來更周延我們的防範措施希望大院跟社會各界持續支持 謝謝好 那其餘提出書面報告的機關有沒有口頭的補充"},{"start":2722.13,"end":2741.483,"text":"沒 機關代表沒有的話我們就報告完畢了那相關書面的報告內容請各位委員來參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始來進行詢答由於詢答以後呢皆需要處理預算的一個解凍案 按照前例呢"},{"start":2742.123,"end":2764.25,"text":"本會委員的尋答時間6分鐘然後必要的時候可以延長2分鐘就6加2了非本會委員的尋答時間細文件就不再延長了那我們上午10點30分截止發言登記那我看因為議程我們只安排上午半天而已"},{"start":2764.83,"end":2772.896,"text":"所以請各位委員盡量來掌握時間我們現在請登記第一位的委員黃國昌委員來巡檔謝謝主席 麻煩有請司法院的副秘書長還有法務部的次長請王副秘還有黃次長"},{"start":2797.796,"end":2809.998,"text":"委員早安兩位好上個會期針對有關於法院在處理強制處分的事情我提議做了兩個凍結案"},{"start":2811.698,"end":2825.782,"text":"今天司法院所提出來的報告讓我覺得非常的困惑司法院本院所提出來的報告針對有關於科技監控的部分你們在報告裡面寫說112年10月4號跟112年10月24號召開了經濟防逃措施聯繫會議"},{"start":2834.346,"end":2856.07,"text":"我們之所以提凍結案是希望司法院針對現在有關於科技監控所出現的重大問題到底要怎麼改善來提出你們的報告結果2025年提出來的報告講你們2023年做了什麼事情副秘書長你覺得這樣子的報告及格嗎"},{"start":2860.458,"end":2871.604,"text":"不是啊你們送來立法院的報告你要針對問題回答解決問題你2025年送來的報告說你2023年做了什麼你會不會覺得太離譜啊這樣的報告及格嗎來請副秘書長你覺得你對這樣的報告滿意嗎"},{"start":2888.26,"end":2914.371,"text":"其實在今年以來那個司法院還有做那個非常多的那個措施那這個報告確實沒有很周延的呈現沒有沒有先停一下你如果說今年以來司法院做了很多措施的話那我就會期待反映在這個報告裡你覺得有反映在這個報告裡嗎這個報告送來之前你有看過嗎你真的有看過嗎可以讓刑事廳長那個回答來請刑事廳長"},{"start":2919.014,"end":2938.672,"text":"委員好 那跟委員報告一下我們是把之前我們所做過的相關的一些措施一併如列在我們的書面報告裡面那事實上在114年我們開了四次的四次的所謂的參訪活動讓北部各地 北部各地方法院你覺得這四次的參訪活動有解決問題嗎"},{"start":2939.898,"end":2967.951,"text":"那我們還有繼續在做那我們希望說讓法官能對科技監控的相關的措施好我接下來帶你們看啊人民關心的是什麼問題啊為什麼我當初會用這個案由來凍結預算就希望你們司法院能夠正式問題解決問題啊而不是提這種報告出來你們司法院本院的報告啊講2023年做了什麼事情我看了覺得很扯"},{"start":2969.285,"end":2992.539,"text":"結果高等法院的報告給一頁這個報告副秘書長有看過嗎你覺得滿意嗎還是你覺得反正司法院送來的報告這些立法委員也都不會看隨便寫一寫有文字在上面交差了事就可以了是這樣嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":2997.917,"end":3006.424,"text":"這個高等法院的報告您看過嗎?有看過你滿意嗎?您覺得滿意嗎?有回答問題嗎?您覺得勒?不是啊,我們現在這樣大家在看直播好像現在在定格"},{"start":3021.345,"end":3049.968,"text":"我只是請你給我一個答案你也可以代表司法院的立場說我們看過了沒有問題很滿意或者是我們看過了我們也覺得不滿意因為高院是不是請那個高院長來回覆因為高院這一部分他們那個預算是他們那個那個組織機關是那個高院我先帶下帶你們看為什麼我覺得你們的解凍報告沒有回答問題沒有解答人民心中的疑惑來"},{"start":3051.479,"end":3077.202,"text":"第一個問題從之前我追鍾文智追到徐少東大家有一個共通的問題是說這一個人這兩個人之前都逃亡過被通緝過結果呢沒有羈押就算了那個是最嚴重限制人身自由的強制處分結果連電子監控都不用"},{"start":3078.871,"end":3107.692,"text":"我問法務部的官員法務部說這個審判中啊是法官要處理的那當然檢察官在審判程序當中有沒有依職權促請法官為助役這我會要求法務部但問題是當發生這樣子的事情了以後連續執行了兩個案子你們完全沒有辦法回答在這個報告裡面一個字都沒有提"},{"start":3108.618,"end":3133.783,"text":"大家不懂之前已經跑過了被通緝了現在抓回來抓回來接受審判在審判程序進行當中連電子監控都不用然後人都跑了會讓人民開始懷疑啊這些有權有勢的人是怎麼亂搞都沒有關係嗎?司法院覺得這件事情需要檢討嗎?來 請司法院"},{"start":3138.82,"end":3166.58,"text":"那個跟那個委員報告因為這個部分所有的那個處分因為都是屬於那個法官的個案他們的那個審酌那司法行政真的不變那個智慧那那個司法行政能夠做的就是我們一直在不斷的在各種的那個或者是透過通行或者透過那個行政那個會議就是跟那個法官就是宣達那提高他們對這個部分的敏感度我這樣說好了啦"},{"start":3168.683,"end":3195.66,"text":"在法治國家當中我們當然尊重司法獨立但司法不是置外於社會司法的公眾監督非常的重要一而再再而三發生這樣子的案子人民覺得很困惑結果最近來又多一個新的這個議員又跑了他前面也是一樣他前面也是一樣他曾經跑過"},{"start":3197.342,"end":3222.412,"text":"結果連電子監控都不用後來出現大家的批評啊是什麼這個我之前我全部都有掉了法官在做強制處分的時候前案紀錄表應該都在卷宗內吧前案發生了什麼事情法官應該都會知道吧是"},{"start":3223.393,"end":3248.5,"text":"那為什麼是沒有看嗎還是看了覺得沒有關係之前雖然跑過這次不會跑來看一下地方人士說所有的人都知道要跑只有司法單位不知道你看連莊瑞雄都笑出來了所有的人都知道要跑了只有法官不知道我看召委應該也知道他要跑了啦"},{"start":3250.267,"end":3279.045,"text":"沒有 你笑成這個樣子啊你也是屏東出來的啊在地是怎麼做 你莊瑞雄應該很壞啦全世界的人都知道他要跑啊 只有法官不知道這種有權有勢的人 一而再再而三發生這種事情這個是人民對於司法的信任為什麼會低落嘛這也是為什麼我會提出這個預算凍結案希望你們回去檢討"},{"start":3281.496,"end":3309.592,"text":"在作業程序上面是不是出了什麼問題我們的法官需要什麼樣的協助為什麼他們所做的強制處分跟最後的結果會落差這麼大跟人民的認知會落差這麼大這是為什麼我們當初要提出預算凍結案的理由讓你們有機會去重新的審視"},{"start":3311.826,"end":3340.738,"text":"希望你們好好的看一看到底發生了什麼樣的狀況但從我提預算凍結案到現在一個又一個一個又一個還是全部都跑了我本來期待在今天你們的書面報告裡面我可以看到有意義的檢討但我必須要負責任的跟我們司法院的長官報告"},{"start":3343.073,"end":3369.106,"text":"這個是虛硬故事交差了事完全沒有回應問題完全沒有回應問題在一個又一個的案子當中如果遭到 如果遭到這樣子的狀況所有的人民都會問到底發生了什麼事情當然人民沒有機會"},{"start":3370.726,"end":3388.516,"text":"問司法院但我們有機會問司法院所以我們才會提這樣子的案子希望司法院能夠強化這件事情的作為解答人民的疑惑最後一個問題"},{"start":3399.557,"end":3421.731,"text":"最高法院有沒有通知評檢啟動防逃因為媒體上面上面是寫說評檢是看到媒體相關報導才知情我看了有一點嚇一大跳所以這個事情要先釐清這個媒體的報導司法院有沒有掌握有嘛那你們了解的狀況是什麼"},{"start":3423.274,"end":3437.154,"text":"因為最高法院通常判決的結果依照我知道他們實務上面的操作是星期五的時候會先公布主文星期五公布主文代表的就是這個案子已經做決定了"},{"start":3439.71,"end":3457.55,"text":"最高法院有通知評檢啟動防逃什麼時候通知的有掌握嗎跟委員報告這一件是在5月14號的時候評決的那當時確實沒有通知那個防逃那這一件就是就是依這個"},{"start":3459.411,"end":3487.602,"text":"相關內規的那個防逃那個辦法這一件他因為犯罪所得是一千多萬那判刑四年多他是不屬於那個重大矚目案件但是我們也必須說那個被告他的身份是現役員那是符合那個防逃的規定那這一件就是據那個最高他們的那個報告他們說因為這一件在那個判決的那個犯罪事實中呢他沒有那個很明顯的呈現就是被告他的那個身份"},{"start":3488.562,"end":3517.239,"text":"那所以說這個部分他們對不起我聽不懂耶最高法院處理上訴最高法院的法官卷不是都要看過嗎我有理解錯誤嗎沒有錯那整個卷看完了不知道被告的身份那我只有一個結論啊就根本沒有看卷啊我無法理解啊整個卷看完了不知道被告的身份那他看什麼卷"},{"start":3520.546,"end":3539.679,"text":"她不知道她現議員的身份看完了整個券不知道被告是現議員的身份這個部分就是說那個最高法院他們掌握這個多少這個部分我沒辦法帶他們回答那但是就是說最高法院不是啊 我無法理解啦所有的文書"},{"start":3541.813,"end":3569.369,"text":"從起訴一審二審中間所有強制處分的裁定應該都在最高法院的卷裡吧那個報告委員這一件因為從那個偵查開始就沒有那個申請羈押就是那個都沒有那個羈押也沒有那個羈押的替代處分連限制出境出海都沒有就他們給我的那個資料是沒有的你確定嗎有啊有限制是這一件嗎"},{"start":3571.991,"end":3600.873,"text":"他有限制出境出海啊不是啊因為我聽副秘書長這樣講我真的會有一點害怕最高法院的法官看完全不知道他是縣議員那個委員我剛剛沒有這樣子的意思我只是說他們那個的他們那個的報告回覆那個意見是說沒有在那個犯罪事實中很明顯的呈現他的那個身份但是就是這邊"},{"start":3602.374,"end":3626.129,"text":"最高法院他的認知是怎麼樣我想這個要由他們這個我沒有辦法代替他們回答但是我可以跟那個委員報告就是說最高審理的那個就是的那個依訴訟法那個結構呢他所審理的是上訴意旨所旨在的那個違法因此他會去卷裡頭所那個審查那個標的就只有在審查那個標的就是說"},{"start":3626.989,"end":3652.1,"text":"他們只在違法這個部分才會詳細的進入到那個卷裡頭去審閱這些卷中的我希望副秘書長或許回去再想一想今天你在這邊說的應循的內容第二個部分司法院或許管不到最高法院但可以善意的提醒最高法院"},{"start":3653.562,"end":3680.072,"text":"這是怎麼回事有必要發一個新聞稿讓社會大眾可以了解這樣子的人不屬於防逃要趕快通知的對象做了決定屏東地檢署說他不知道那顯然屏東地檢署沒有說謊因為最高法院真的沒有通知他從這個案子以後"},{"start":3681.229,"end":3707.224,"text":"防逃的機制你們前面開了很多會嘛顯然前面開的所有的會沒有把我們現在的這個洞補起來屏東地檢署不知道他要怎麼啟動最高法院的法官說他不知道他是屏東縣議員然後也不知道他曾經逃亡過嗎這些客觀的事實不是一定會在券裡面嗎"},{"start":3709.574,"end":3723.079,"text":"現在事情發生了就說一句不知道您覺得社會大眾有辦法理解嗎那個最高他們近日也有那個開啟這些那個就是再繼續開會再繼續開會沒有關係啊我們靜待這一次新的開會最後的會議結論是什麼會執行到什麼程度是"},{"start":3739.466,"end":3745.17,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員接下來請王逸川委員詢答好 謝謝趙偉 我們請教育部"},{"start":3769.313,"end":3785.065,"text":"這個法務部跟內政部的兩位次長你問教育部你就厲害了,教育部我也沒有說有人來,你也叫一下副司長,許家倩副司長還有內政部馬次長,還有我們法務部黃次長"},{"start":3792.947,"end":3805.16,"text":"好我先請教這個教育部的代表這跟燒法通過以後啊對於這個男女同學之間的追求教育部怎麼宣導這個跟燒法"},{"start":3808.36,"end":3827.903,"text":"跟委員報告有關跟騷法的部分其實在我們校園平等教育法裡面的相關的性別事件我們的宣導防制一直都有在做那這三年有學生因為跟騷法被告發舉報或者是去告的嗎"},{"start":3829.231,"end":3843.938,"text":"跟委員報告這三年其實都有相關的事件那跟稍法我們這三年的統計比如說像去年大概有八十幾件的通報那結果呢結果屬實的部分其實跟委員報告屬實的部分其實在去年的統計大概只有十二件"},{"start":3853.123,"end":3881.44,"text":"只有十二件?對好我先問教育部的原因是這個跟騷法跟這個追求有一條線存在啊譬如說這個A同學喜歡B同學他下課就跑去他教室外面看他放學他就說他要保護他回家他也沒有對他做什麼他什麼都沒做他就是默默的跟著他來 法務部次長"},{"start":3884.025,"end":3905.219,"text":"按照你的理解這算跟燒嗎這個還是要看構成要件那有可能構成但是還是要由這個教育單位先行輔導然後有假設被害人或是他的家長有這個提出這個告訴的話我們就會接手來處理"},{"start":3906.155,"end":3932.694,"text":"好就是完全是看所謂的這個所謂的被害人他覺得因為這個照角色照剛才委員所描述的情形的話應該是告訴乃論之罪OK好那接下來我請這個內政部這個次長在這一個警方如果受理報案我舉一個例子就是在路上走"},{"start":3934.073,"end":3957.663,"text":"那每次要回家呢 後面就跟著一個人那也不知道那個人是誰也不知道那個人是誰那也沒有制止他但是就心生恐懼心生恐懼 他也沒有對你怎樣但是他就一直跟著你喔那你也沒有回去找他喔你就趕快跑回家然後今天這樣 明天也這樣這可不可以報案"},{"start":3959.05,"end":3986.662,"text":"報委員 這個應該要報案因為違反意願 心生恐懼 影響生活就應該報案好 那報案的時候這個可以報什麼報委員 這個根據我們目前的法規有色違法跟跟騷法都可以報案好 那跟騷法要不要回頭跟他講你不要再跟不需要 我們只要有重複 反覆實施的話我們就可以來報案那如果沒有重複呢"},{"start":3987.739,"end":4002.88,"text":"沒有重複如果是一次性的話,這個可能會比較適合社委法的狀態比較符合社委法?比較符合,因為我們只要看個案好,那報案你們就會查嗎?報案如果我們認定說有跟沙法的構成要見的話,我們就會核發告結束"},{"start":4003.462,"end":4030.408,"text":"那就你們認定我們會認定 行政上認定就是說我們偵查的過程如果認為他有跟騷行為的話那同性之間算不算都算同性之間也算也算 跟性別有關都算不是 就是就是我覺得他在跟我那我覺得他對我有跟騷我就去報案了喔可以的我就去報案了喔我個人覺得喔可是對方呢 沒有 他就他對我也沒有什麼在性上面的這一個"},{"start":4032.276,"end":4055.609,"text":"這個事情,那這可以符合跟騷法嗎?各位網友,這個還是要約詢我們的相關當事人來了解案情因為如果說他所比如說跟蹤的目的或者是說他有拍攝的行為那拍攝行為如果涉及到對方的隱私或是一些特定部位的話這個我們是可以根據跟騷法來做認定那跟騷法要反覆對不對?如果沒有反覆就沒辦法?"},{"start":4056.48,"end":4082.221,"text":"一次性的話基本上我們會比較傾向於那這一個恐嚇為安要不要反覆恐嚇為安的話它是另外一個法律恐嚇的話是刑法對它不是跟騷法我知道那要不要反覆來那個恐嚇部副市長那個跟騷行為除了反覆之外還有持續也就是說雖然說一次性但是如果持續很久也算跟騷"},{"start":4085.287,"end":4109.722,"text":"會講清楚一點就是它構成要件裡面除了反覆或持續以性或跟性有關的這個目的來做這個跟蹤或是騷擾行為的話就可能會構成這個跟騷好 我為什麼要這樣問就是當有人被跟蹤 被偷拍他的第一時間他當然就是跑嘛"},{"start":4111.625,"end":4123.716,"text":"就是說趕快離開現場那他很緊張啊他就跑去派出所報案啊派出所如果回答他說請問你要告什麼這樣處理這樣是對的嗎應該要跟這個我想應該請警政署這邊來回答派出所的比較正確這樣是對的嗎當事人喔"},{"start":4134.983,"end":4162.608,"text":"任何案子基本上我們都要先受理再來瞭解他整個案情的狀況他是誰該當何人那警察可不可以跟當事人分析說你這齁不確定對方是什麼人所以你這根梢法應該告不刑你這恐嚇維安也告不刑你再想想看要告什麼這樣的對話是對的嗎這樣是不對的這樣是不可以這樣是不對的齁因為這個當事人啊"},{"start":4165.109,"end":4180.739,"text":"這個 反應 他去派出所 案情就起碼 他說有人跟他對嘛後來警方跟他說 你要回頭制止他你沒有制止他 你怎麼知道他在對你做這些事情這不對喔這樣是不對的最後我再請教育部"},{"start":4191.618,"end":4203.582,"text":"我很擔心我們現在的學校尤其是高中這種跟騷的狀況同學之間被騷擾的狀況如果一開始都無所謂後來家長倆說這個小朋友回去會講我們學校我叫他不要跟我他就一直跟我但是他也都沒講話然後呢這個"},{"start":4220.033,"end":4235.027,"text":"這個所謂的被害人的家屬就跑去警察局告了他就第一時間跑去警察局然後就報案了可是呢這個到底有沒有跨過那條線啊我覺得教育部應該因為我跟你講學校老師可能也不懂"},{"start":4236.969,"end":4257.046,"text":"對吧 副市長你覺不覺得學校老師應該不同我們在學校老師的部分我們應該要加強相關的性別平等的職能的一個教育對 所以我建議這個教育部跟看法務部還是內政部針對學校的老師啊尤其學校的輔導的老師這方面的這一個"},{"start":4258.927,"end":4285.092,"text":"這個認知啊要加強然後順便跟學生做教育否則很多學生搞不清楚他也不知道他跨過了那一條線他就覺得他就是喜歡他他就是迷戀他但是他也什麼事他也沒做什麼動作他就想說我要保護他回家他回完家他自己也回家是 謝謝委員指導學生部分我們應該也要加強有關情感教育的一個方面的一個宣導 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4291.642,"end":4299.185,"text":"謝謝王一川委員來 換你代理主席一下接下來請吳宗憲委員詢問來"},{"start":4318.463,"end":4337.646,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有複密好 請次長 廳長跟司法院的複密署長好 請好 謝謝主席三位早安"},{"start":4339.701,"end":4361.8,"text":"我先請教一下副秘還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算"},{"start":4363.078,"end":4377.648,"text":"那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院三讀通過"},{"start":4378.709,"end":4402.532,"text":"也都沒有一毛錢被刪我在強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法定預算而且一毛沒有刪那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算預算案請問一下司法院我剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條"},{"start":4407.303,"end":4435.978,"text":"這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊"},{"start":4437.074,"end":4459.668,"text":"然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這個暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了"},{"start":4464.339,"end":4488.296,"text":"委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是 好 謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題"},{"start":4489.457,"end":4504.583,"text":"一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院"},{"start":4506.844,"end":4525.654,"text":"我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決"},{"start":4527.284,"end":4550.308,"text":"我們都應該知道一件事情請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣"},{"start":4552.182,"end":4576.872,"text":"是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰"},{"start":4580.012,"end":4599.305,"text":"請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法律規定所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話"},{"start":4603.288,"end":4623.256,"text":"你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下齁就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常"},{"start":4624.016,"end":4637.242,"text":"NICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比"},{"start":4640.6,"end":4662.286,"text":"蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下"},{"start":4664.355,"end":4675.852,"text":"我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下"},{"start":4677.27,"end":4701.527,"text":"在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪 不能動 不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款 中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除 也就是"},{"start":4702.727,"end":4728.405,"text":"說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是"},{"start":4730.868,"end":4753.43,"text":"立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了"},{"start":4755.891,"end":4775.469,"text":"行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據"},{"start":4776.59,"end":4803.718,"text":"依法來執行 依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況我們的主席長其實在台南當過主席處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在"},{"start":4805.458,"end":4821.538,"text":"在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統"},{"start":4822.879,"end":4848.025,"text":"幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些"},{"start":4849.225,"end":4871.802,"text":"並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下"},{"start":4878.069,"end":4888.763,"text":"因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府"},{"start":4890.029,"end":4907.519,"text":"他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個"},{"start":4908.96,"end":4930.843,"text":"話不是這樣講啦 更何況借錢不是不用還 還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的 像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢 大家都統一山25到27%我覺得這個不對啦 不能搞這種齊頭式的玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平"},{"start":4932.747,"end":4955.893,"text":"所以我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼 就好像說"},{"start":4957.97,"end":4985.412,"text":"你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊就他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢就他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個"},{"start":4988.359,"end":5014.643,"text":"在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白濫酸預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了"},{"start":5015.043,"end":5036.528,"text":"那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反"},{"start":5038.29,"end":5044.73,"text":"選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有再講了開始沒有再講這個東西了結果我們發現"},{"start":5045.956,"end":5073.174,"text":"哇 原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰 竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢"},{"start":5075.064,"end":5090.516,"text":"當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是"},{"start":5091.673,"end":5107.632,"text":"行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好 那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦"},{"start":5109.349,"end":5126.436,"text":"既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事處決定的我不知道我們就告發依法"},{"start":5127.717,"end":5153.83,"text":"一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈聯署這種中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客扣達到636億"},{"start":5156.571,"end":5167.652,"text":"而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶"},{"start":5169.259,"end":5196.815,"text":"殘障的人需要用的錢 那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力 或八成 五成都好啦麻煩檢察官 調查官下去查逆流客扣罪麻煩一下 我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在 哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人 年輕人一條活路"},{"start":5197.984,"end":5215.631,"text":"我剛剛講的東西全部我剛剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長、廳長、副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法利益的課題請問次長有要補充嗎"},{"start":5217.631,"end":5245.091,"text":"我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除 刪減預算相關程序以及他的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝 那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且"},{"start":5246.311,"end":5271.099,"text":"刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席謝謝吳宗憲委員 接下來請莊瑞雄委員謝謝主席 有請我們法務部黃次長來 黃次長一人而已"},{"start":5274.966,"end":5279.691,"text":"市長,一個就好,剛才我走下去吳宗憲委員給我搜一頁,搜一頁就是他講了有一點心虛其實你剛剛都沒有回應,吳宗憲委員剛剛就胡說八道,開玩笑跟你講就是說其實國民黨自己本身內部沒有對好,吳宗憲委員我趁你,因為我不喜歡"},{"start":5296.71,"end":5318.824,"text":"那這個 別人不在場 批評別人 剛好你在場 我給你 不要說糾正啦 給你提醒啦2024年的12月23號啊 你們的賴斯巴委員講現在喔 中央給地方的部分啊 除了統籌稅款啊還有一般補助款跟計畫補助款 這比例佔了蠻多的中央政府根本不需要從變種一算 只需要減少補助款就可以啦換言之啦 行政院只需要"},{"start":5319.484,"end":5326.628,"text":"只需在補助款的部分減少三千多億一切就可以迎刃而解這個是你們賴司法委員講的啦 抱歉啦 你要照喔 我說不知道那你就知道啦 所以說這個齁你這個 我們在在一檔在砍這個總預算的時候啊他 總預算砍了然後在整個 到最後是在不知道要抬什麼的時候齁通山哥給你抬一根對不對齁抬到跟你說 欸 是要抬什麼 數十年了 你自己去抬啦 我不會啦齁"},{"start":5349.827,"end":5370.796,"text":"一般性補助裡面就是在整個總預算裡面你把總預算給砍了你什麼你其他的東西叫行政院 中央政府再自己去找錢出來這個是有點強人所難這個我做這樣的一個補充請回來 請我們司法院副秘書長來 副秘書長請"},{"start":5380.144,"end":5403.492,"text":"我想整個耕燒法上路這三年從零到有確實踏出了關鍵一步但是我們這三週年我們在討論的也不是說只有好就好了因為耕燒其實它不只是一個個人的問題更是一個公共安全的延伸制度的一個空隙裡面我們很擔心的就是下一個悲劇的溫床"},{"start":5405.313,"end":5432.893,"text":"那我們看這部條文裡面現在看大家好像是認為只是在定義條文其實真正的目的才不是我們當初是希望說這部法令是變成人民的一個安全守護的一個盾牌那我來做一些回顧啦現在我們也一起來檢視這樣制度的一個缺口我看今天的報告裡面最主要是檢視這個法制的實施還有成效還有可能有一些不足的一個地方那"},{"start":5433.755,"end":5463.035,"text":"我看到就是說這三年你看這一個成果下來更是要把你設計的這三道防線裡面其實大家去看到當初那麼多人在呼籲三道防線書面告誡保護令接下來是刑事處罰那你從受理案件這8488件到你開立書面的告誡5000多件違反告誡就522件那家暴法保護令的申請"},{"start":5465.896,"end":5482.542,"text":"1979件跟燒法保護令的申請412件提告5000多件移送4531件那從這些來看的話請看下一頁就是說這些數字裡面你可以看得出來就是"},{"start":5485.012,"end":5494.596,"text":"你這個告誡跟保護令之間它有一個空窗的問題對整個被害人來講的話會形成一個保護的斷點"},{"start":5497.935,"end":5513.989,"text":"我想問的就是說 這個保護空窗期食物的問題跟我們如何去應對那是不是從書面告誡到保護令合法 經過一段時間又怕又會亮成一個新案 我不曉得"},{"start":5516.536,"end":5539.317,"text":"我們司法院這個地方啊對於這個書面告誡發布到保護令核發前如何再去做更有效的一個保護的一個作為我認為 副理事長你的看法是怎樣好 謝謝委員我請我們林市廳長回覆這個比較專業的這個部分好 那我請警政署警政署來嘛 也請到這位起來這個來先請"},{"start":5543.439,"end":5559.635,"text":"是主席委員那個代表司法院在這邊做一個說明沒關係你說明那個有關那個書面告誡這個部分其實當初在制度設計的時候這個內政部當時就是因為考慮到像剛才王逸川委員所提到的狀況因為有些狀況不明"},{"start":5561.337,"end":5579.498,"text":"那不明的時候你立刻就讓他申請保護令這個其實對於某一些模糊地帶的不管是青少年也會有問題書面告誡當時內政部可以理解啦也不是警察不是警方不是檢察官這邊申請法院就一定照他們的申請來"},{"start":5580.719,"end":5601.552,"text":"來做一個核准這個可以理解可是問題就是說我從剛剛那個比例來看的話似乎我們司法院這個地方跟警政組這個地方你們對那個整個法律間接你們要去做一個統一再跟委員報告說明一下委員做的這一張表這個保護令刑事處罰實際上是違反保護令罪"},{"start":5602.592,"end":5624.315,"text":"我們在根梢法保護法當初就已經犯罪化了也就是一開始符合構成要件的就有可能構成刑事犯罪那刑事犯罪跟這個書面告誡它是一個行政跟刑事的雙軌進行所以不會因為你發不發書面告誡或中間有空窗就導致說刑事的報復不足這個要先跟委員說明一下"},{"start":5625.436,"end":5649.976,"text":"對 那我要請教的就是說像以現在來看的話你執行到現在 我看這個六十七件的一個職權申請裡面很多可以按照職權來做一個申請啦那可是呢 看起來駁回的部分也不小那當社會大眾會去質疑說這樣對被害人的一個保護到底是不是充足"},{"start":5650.546,"end":5679.473,"text":"甚至於說你們跟警政署這個地方是不是應該有一個做一個我們當初在修法的時候希望有一個定期的一個會商的一個機制這部分你們有做嗎?還是你們認為你們比較權威?警政署我們那個事變告誡我們在認定上是刑事訴訟法裡面的任意處分他也沒有什麼強制力"},{"start":5680.643,"end":5707.255,"text":"所以我們在受理發現這個被害者如果真的有危險的話我們可以申請預防性的指引劑啊是啦 這都不是這個問題啊你們這樣子變成說你們現在在委員會裡面的詢答跟你們這個發出來在哀哀叫的又不太一樣你們動不動就把人家推給說啊我們就有行情啊 法官不愛人尊啊你們講的你們就講到這裡去了你們現在在這裡講的又不一樣了"},{"start":5710.54,"end":5734.953,"text":"是不是這樣說?我的意思是說在這個期間,你這樣按照職權申請的部分,駁回這麼高啦,很多也未必會按照你們的意思,法院本來就不一定是你們申請以後,法院一定要去做一個核准,你們就出了這些,你們比較挫折,你們的講法本來是如此啊。"},{"start":5738.379,"end":5751.244,"text":"對 這個因為保護令的核准還是法院在核准所以他們認定有時候他會去比較嚴格當然我們基於保護被害人的立場我們希望是能夠盡快而且能夠比較寬鬆一點的執行"},{"start":5754.285,"end":5779.479,"text":"當然啦 審查的標準這個部分是不是該有更一致的一個看法司法院這個地方確實是可以更精進啦因為不同的法官本來就常常會出現不同的一個看法這部分我希望司法院這個地方也可以對民眾有一個適度的一個回應啦好不好然後司法院請回那我繼續要來請教的警政署的部分就是說"},{"start":5780.62,"end":5792.603,"text":"在科技偵查我們常常碰到一些障礙你像譬如說有一些電話 你說王一川 看他就很討厭不然你打電話給他 打電話給他 打電話給他還是我用那個假帳號 叫你王一川 一直叫叫叫叫你去找臉書 臉書設定那十四種狀況那你真的要去追蹤的話像這種狀況 譬如說我來騷擾"},{"start":5806.966,"end":5826.392,"text":"王一川,像這種情形,不要說社會大眾,你偵查上就有很多的一個障礙那像這一些,你們有什麼因應的策略跟技術的一個資源來提升整個執法的一個效率聽到王一川他就哭哭哭,緊緊的在看你有沒有看,就代表他這種困擾很多啦現在其實這個"},{"start":5828.974,"end":5844.732,"text":"網際網路的部分社群媒體這個部分在我們國內設定的時候像MetaMeta的部分它就是比較大部分現在都可以配合Line也是一樣但是如果說它是公司是設定在境外的"},{"start":5845.553,"end":5863.153,"text":"像這個WeChat或是像這個WhatsApp這些像新加坡他們在用的這些我們可能在調味上會有比較麻煩必須要聰明溝通但是目前他還是盡量會依個案會來同意"},{"start":5864.093,"end":5881.885,"text":"回來同意 這已經在進步了 已經越來越會配合了您這有回答 聽不回答 王一川不滿意啦好啦 時間的問題啦 請回答 這個偵查都還必須要進進主席 抱歉 再給我一點時間 因為今天是預算的一個解凍所以我必須要再請司法院副秘書長上來一下來 副秘書長"},{"start":5884.38,"end":5888.122,"text":"副院長我再請問就是說我們從2024年8月15號新制的一個上路這個我們法院跟地檢委託衛護部醫審會的鑑定的機制這個全面暫停這個部分其實很多的一個塞車的狀況非常嚴重那司法院你去因應的措施跟成效來看的話"},{"start":5909.514,"end":5935.575,"text":"你們現在在去年跟今年,尤其是今年三月份,你們也召開了多次的一個諮詢的會議,你們現在推出了兩項措施,就是說鑑定人具名跟拒絕可以彌封,不提供閱覽,然後鑑定人出庭、客才遠距或者隔離、筆錄、免記載的個資,我要請教副秘書長就是說,這兩項的一個措施,是否真的可以提升鑑定的一個參與的意願跟實際的成效?"},{"start":5939.872,"end":5955.398,"text":"跟委員報告就是說有關於這個議題其實大部分塞車是在那個偵查中那所以說那個相關的那個部會現在也有達成的一個共識就是說在偵查中的時候呢就那個因為他還不需要到嚴格的那個"},{"start":5956.338,"end":5982.967,"text":"證明的這個部分所以說就還不要需要就是要有那個鑑定人具名跟那個具節啊這是現在目前因為大部分七百多件都是在那個偵查中就是現在這樣子那個處理那到法院這一端來的時候那個件數就不會有這麼多了那法院除了採取就是以上這個措施之外呢我們也有就是在廣闢其他的就是除了醫審會之外現在目前有有很多的那個醫療機構"},{"start":5984.608,"end":5999.155,"text":"還有就是協會跟協會的那個單位那甚至像那個台大法醫研究所也都願意就是加入這個鑑定我剛才跟你們問喔 是兩項啦一項你們就是說鑑定費用比較多第二項就是說那出庭的部分喔 也是跟我講五百啦有的人根本就沒有那個意願上次你們是講說喔 事實上你們是表示說會提高專家的一個費用那這個部分我想 這個部分我們也已經做了"},{"start":6014.039,"end":6018.585,"text":"阿所以你們會具體 已經具體落實了已經有 已經有 現在多少這個我讓那個廳長來回覆"},{"start":6022.079,"end":6048.461,"text":"那有關於那個鑑定費用的部分我們把它改成雙階段的兩階段的鑑定費用知己方法就是原先的書面報告的部分那是一個鑑定費用如果有鑑定人要出席的話有出席的鑑定費用那個這部分的說明費用我們3000到10000那或者是有4000塊根據那衛福部的那個精神鑑定的部分的收費標準出席出庭說明鑑定報告費用的部分在一次是4000塊錢"},{"start":6049.662,"end":6054.726,"text":"五八變四千甚至我們用專家證人的自己標準可以三千到一萬根據那個詢問的內容時間反應程度來做一個調整我有一個比較最後一個問題就好了其他問題我不好意思沒有時間不敢站人家太久就是我們醫審會的決議跟你初見定的醫師意見不一致這個問題這個比較麻煩的就是說"},{"start":6076.605,"end":6099.52,"text":"你如果說非醫師背景的委員會做成結論這個很明顯就不太符合我們行入訴說法鑑定人專業資格的一個要求那你初見的醫師你不參與最後的決議也不具名也不拒絕然後他的意見其實常常都對於整個決議他有實質的一個影響力這個部分我不曉得副秘書長你怎麼看"},{"start":6101.104,"end":6126.582,"text":"那個其實那個醫審會這個部分呢他們那個成員三分之二以上也都是那個醫師那其他是社會公正人士譬如說有一些法學的刑法法學背景的這一些那個的人那所以說他們其實過去以來他們那個運作呢就是說最後在醫審會的時候其實都會經過一個很充分的一個討論對我們剛好可憐說你像譬如說"},{"start":6128.062,"end":6151.679,"text":"因為憲法法庭大法官會議解釋也常常會有不同意見書啊你像比如說你去註記不同意見的一個機制出審的意見跟決議不同的時候然後附上不同意見書給檢察官或者法院去做一個參酌我就覺得這個方式也還不錯這個可能要依審會他們來討論決定對我覺得這個建議我在想什麼第一個想到就是想到這個"},{"start":6152.827,"end":6163.157,"text":"我覺得可以參考一下是好方法,我是覺得好方法,不一定會被採取但至少是一個方向之一好不好,謝謝謝謝謝謝莊瑞雄委員,接下來請省發會委員"},{"start":6187.605,"end":6214.246,"text":"主席我們請這個司法院副秘書長副秘書長請副秘書長早我們今天是針對這個我們司法院的一些這個凍結的預算來進行這個解凍案那事實上在去年的這個總預算的審查的時候我們有幾項的主決議,我看今天書面報告已經送來了那我特別關心這個"},{"start":6216.3,"end":6221.845,"text":"去年在總預算審查的時候,有關於第21項、26項、28項的這個組決議有關這個國民參與審判制度的這個成效大概都是,這個決議都是有關這個國民參與審判制度的這個成效的評估那這個部分"},{"start":6236.029,"end":6250.553,"text":"這個我看你們在5月10號有送了有把這三個案子的三個組決議的書面報告都送到本委員會來那我仔細的看那大致上的內容大概跟我們113年10月所做出來的這個112年國慾參與審判制度的成效評估報告大概就是這個內容大概一致"},{"start":6261.042,"end":6287.965,"text":"所以我大概就以這個112年的這個國民參審制的這個成效評估報告裡面的一些問題那在現在又經過了這個一年,我大概有些問題來跟副秘書長請教一下我看我們這個評估報告裡面第55頁他大概提出現在目前兩個這個國民法官的這個參審制度的這個最大的兩個問題"},{"start":6290.188,"end":6318.517,"text":"第一個是第一個問題是我們目前所選出來這些國民法官的候選人他的組成他的這些年齡學歷跟職業分佈跟全國人口的這個落差這是我們我們自己評估報告指出來第一個大問題尤其是在50歲以上的人口高中職學歷以下還有退休的無業的家管的公教人員學生這些比例在整個人口結構的比例上面都有極大的落差這些部分都比例偏低"},{"start":6319.997,"end":6339.148,"text":"那這個第二個問題就是說,也是同樣這份報告就是說國民法官的到場率偏低到場率現在只有,按照那個時候113年10月所做出來的評估報告國民法官的到場率只有45.9%,不到一半"},{"start":6345.621,"end":6369.882,"text":"這個到場率只有45.9%那所以我是大概針對這兩個問題就請要請我們這個司法院做一下說明我們是不是有什麼樣的措施來這個促使這個司法院進一步提升這個國民法官第一個促成國民法官這個組成他的多元性跟人口結構的這樣子的落差能夠把它彌平第二個就是說有關他的這個到場率的問題有什麼方式可以改善"},{"start":6370.623,"end":6374.846,"text":"有關於那個國民法官那個組成這個部分其實剛開始的時候他是經過兩次那個隨機的那個篩選的所以說是就那個人口裡面事實上沒有特定就是說任何人只要符合資格事實上他都會被那個篩那只是就是說被抽中之後到法院的人呢"},{"start":6393.16,"end":6416.015,"text":"他這個時候我想就會有他們主觀意願的問題就是什麼人他願意就是進到那個法院來那有些人他就不願意那後來所呈現的就是說到法庭來的實際上擔任國民法官那個人呢就是如同委員所垂詢的就是說他們那個分佈會跟就是整個人口數會有落差我想那個是中間這一層就是說"},{"start":6417.536,"end":6435.322,"text":"這個gap就是說認識什麼人有什麼樣具體的改善措施嗎提升他的多元化跟他的這個是那我們現在那個司法院所做的就是說還是一直在做那個推廣就是我們多元的那個宣導就是利用這個跟到場率大概有就是"},{"start":6436.598,"end":6465.277,"text":"我希望說能夠聽到具體的措施啦具體的措施怎麼樣到底現在這個到場率這麼低它的這個具體的原因大概是什麼主要障礙是什麼啦那你們的改善方案是什麼就是描述這個現象這個你們在113年的報告裡面就已經描述了這個現象了但是我經過這一年多的時間我還是沒有看到你們的這個具體的改善措施啦尤其是再過半年115年"},{"start":6467.038,"end":6491.798,"text":"1月1號我們開始我們這個整個這個國民法官的審判的範圍大幅的擴大大幅擴大我們這個有關這個未來所犯本刑最新最新本刑為10年以上有期徒刑之罪全部通通要納入從明年1月1號開始對不對是所以現在這樣子的狀況我們沒有改善的話我是很擔心半年後這樣子的這個國民法官審判範圍擴大我們這個量能"},{"start":6494.761,"end":6512.737,"text":"這個量能變這麼大是不是能夠負擔這部分我請你們要評估具體的措施時間的關係第二個就是有關這個量行就是你們同樣這份報告的第215頁你們提出有關量行鑑定量能不足的問題"},{"start":6520.475,"end":6543.98,"text":"那這個我們現在各地的這些醫療院所專業團隊他們對於這個參與量刑鑑定的這個認識跟參與意願還是非常的低啦,還是很有限那這個我也是同樣就是說希望我們這個是不是我們跟教育部跟衛福部這邊有沒有辦法來增加改善現在實務上對於量能鑑定團隊的這些需求"},{"start":6544.741,"end":6557.612,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是司法院目前已經有就是把那個全國劃分成北中南還有東四個那個區那我們有主動的去邀請這一些那個法院目前有二十"},{"start":6563.156,"end":6578.066,"text":"那我再補充一下有關於量能鑑定不足的部分我們行事已經持續在跟相關的醫療機構還有精神鑑定的相關機構來做研細目前我們把全國分成北中南東四個區塊"},{"start":6581.669,"end":6601.101,"text":"這個設施是一個解決的部分,但是這部分我們過去確實一直在努力,因為實際上實務上就碰到量能不足的問題但是我們一直,這個學界也一直在提,社會也一直在提,除了這些量刑鑑定以外,有關於科刑資料的這些調查工具,這些部分我們有在做嗎?"},{"start":6602.339,"end":6623.434,"text":"那我在這邊再做補充,有關於量刑前調查的部分不是鑑定,就是量刑前調查,就是科型資料的調查這部分我們已經委託台北大學專案研究,那這個大概在八月份整個研究案就會出來會包括如何做量刑的調查,這部分它有個操作手冊,我們稱為通用版的操作2.0"},{"start":6624.735,"end":6644.243,"text":"這個部分我們有持續在處理因為確實即將在半年就要上路這個我們這個國民法官參審室整個這個他的案件就要擴大了所以這個部分擴大之後下去我自己事實上統計你十年以上的本行我這樣統計就有90多了90"},{"start":6648.612,"end":6676.125,"text":"二條的相關的這些案件都必須採取國民法官的審判所以這樣的量我希望你們能夠提早因應那接下來這個剩下一半分鐘的時間有關上個禮拜五我們本院的這個院會這個就通過了有關於法庭直播的這個法院組織法的修改近乎二讀了近乎二讀就是未來這個有關這個法庭"},{"start":6677.182,"end":6693.973,"text":"要採取在事實省的部分也要採行原則上不直播在例外直播的狀況這部分把這樣子的法院組織法又禁覆二讀個人認為是非常不妥"},{"start":6700.805,"end":6726.082,"text":"這個有關司法審判公開雖然是司改國事會議的結論但是他的公開的這個方法裡面是不是一定要採用直播這種方式事實上在社會上面是有蠻大的疑慮這樣子的一個社會上大家還有各方不同意見的案子你不把他讓他到委員會來進行專業的審查直接進負二讀"},{"start":6727.003,"end":6751.569,"text":"我們現在這個立法院的這個立法品質的這禁負惡毒大家也知道那個品質禁負惡毒不要說有沒有討論常常在表決前半個小時我們都還不曉得他最後的這個修正案內容是什麼這個是很大的問題尤其是現在整個朝野協商的這個機制整個被掏空所以在這個幾乎是行事朝野協商都走形式而已所以變成這樣子這個案子禁負惡毒"},{"start":6752.229,"end":6768.228,"text":"馬上這個消息出來,就引起各方的真的很大的意見,我想司法院應該清楚,有關法官協會、女法官協會各個基層的這些司法官,對於未來的法庭直播看起來是非常非常的有疑慮這部分是不是請我們副院長這邊說明一下"},{"start":6772.165,"end":6788.041,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁其實我們法官並不怕檢驗齁那我們的目前的法庭也非常的公開透明了齁只要是就是呃可以公開的那個審理的那個案件呢都歡迎大家就是那個進來那個旁聽就是監督我想這個這個司法這個"},{"start":6791.304,"end":6810.278,"text":"司法公開審理主要就是要增加司法的透明度還有就是要確保司法的可監督性但是絕對不等於直播不是說只有直播才是司法公開那直播是不是司法公開最好的方式他對司法有什麼樣的好處對公開審判有什麼好處他對公開審判造成什麼樣的"},{"start":6813.88,"end":6833.272,"text":"的影響什麼樣的負面影響這個東西當然是事關重大事關重大現在這樣子的你如果說所有的法院法庭都必須直播當然這個法院組織法我知道它裡面有一些有一些例外的例外的不直播有一些規定但是事實上這樣直播的方式它最大的問題它"},{"start":6834.844,"end":6857.549,"text":"有一些疑慮是在我們立法之前一定要解決的一個報告委員就是因為他的疑慮非常大那所以說其實外國他們也都做了非常多的研究我知道我們這邊也都列出了外國立法例這個最怕的就是發生輿論的公審網路霸凌造成案件的這些包括連證人鑑定人他們的出席意願整個都降低甚至我們剛剛所討論國民法官"},{"start":6859.85,"end":6875.666,"text":"大家可能國民法官 要擔任國民法官 因為我要被直播 所以我擔任國民法官的意願就更加的低落啦 更加低落 這些都是問題啦 都是問題那更 這些只是技術問題而已 最怕的就是他衝擊這個這個不利於事實調查"},{"start":6876.787,"end":6905.318,"text":"這才是我們最怕的不利於事實調查他沒有影響公平審判他侵害訴訟當事人的訴訟權這個東西會不會這方面的影響要如何的來避免一定要把這些問題都排除之後這個法庭的直播他才應該上路你剛提到外國立法例我事實上我這邊也列出了很多日本都是禁止的日本美國聯邦法院他一律禁止媒體轉播部分的州法院有可以轉播"},{"start":6906.218,"end":6927.432,"text":"英國、加拿大、法國、德國這些我們都有列那台灣我們就是最進步啦這些網紅直播主這個在台灣也是特別的發達啦這個我想我們把這樣的法院組織法把它淨附二讀這部分我希望我們司法院這邊能夠確實的去了解我們現在目前不管是這個"},{"start":6929.493,"end":6947.48,"text":"盤點我們整個開放法庭直播它造成的衝擊啦這個可能很快因為進負惡毒可能很快就就要面對了很快就要面對了它造成的重大衝擊喔你們要適時的對外說明好不好是是好不好好謝謝委員委員一律也是我們司法院的立場謝謝好謝謝審發會委員很專業的質詢好來接下來呢我們請王宏威委員宣達"},{"start":6966.095,"end":6993.231,"text":"謝謝主席慢慢來,不要緊張好,謝謝主席其實主席,剛才審判會委員講的我也有仔細在聽那或許我們也可以開一個公聽會,來在座討論好,那先請司法院的副秘書長請王副秘書長還有保部,今天是政治嘛 王次長委員長"},{"start":6998.158,"end":7020.319,"text":"我想請問一下5月14號最高法院刑事大法庭做了一個裁定的宣告主要是針對我們的詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的第47條有關於這個減輕期刑的適用範圍那我們司法院就是最高法院刑事大法庭宣告裁定"},{"start":7020.879,"end":7041.293,"text":"但是看起來呢引起了兩方的大戰我們法務部顯然不以為然那我想先請問一下就說這個媒體也都有報導因為我們非常關心有關於詐欺其實我們很多的民眾非常不爽的就是第一個我們詐欺這個詐騙沒有好好抓"},{"start":7045.456,"end":7066.386,"text":"第二個好像抓到了之後呢也沒有好好的罰他們也沒有重罰所以今天我們的這樣的一個宣告這樣的一個減刑的一個適用範圍的宣告連法務部都很不爽那我想請問一下這是5月14號到目前為止"},{"start":7068.067,"end":7083.861,"text":"包含這個法務部跟司法院針對這件事情有沒有補救或者是法務部提出說要做修法這個部分我想請問一下是不是先請司法院先來說然後再請法務部來說"},{"start":7086.001,"end":7103.852,"text":"那個報告委員吼因為有關於那個大法庭的這個裁定就是因為就是這個法律通過之後呢有關於這個所謂的就是繳交犯罪所得這個檢刑要件到底是怎麼解釋是這個現在抓到了這個特定的這個被告他自己"},{"start":7104.272,"end":7132.774,"text":"我了解對 就是有關因為法務部現在不爽這個宣告就是認為這個對於他的範圍太過的限縮只是以他他自己自白我有多少犯罪所得然後他就可以獲得減刑我想這個也是我剛才講民眾非常關心的不爽的 不滿的就是第一個詐欺犯沒有好好抓抓了以後也沒有重罰然後民眾的"},{"start":7134.175,"end":7153.502,"text":"這個被詐欺所得也都拿不回來我們這一陣子不管母親節或端午節我每一次的活動每一天都有人跟我反應這個事情大家其實民怨非常非常深所以我想請問一下這個宣告合理嗎還是說你們會再採取法務部的意見來做調整"},{"start":7155.236,"end":7183.071,"text":"那個跟委員報告因為最高法院大法庭所做的裁定這完全是一個審判職權的一個形式所以我們司法行政是尊重的那就是如果法務部他們要修法就是把這個法律那個文藝就是定得更清楚那這個部分司法院會尊重的好所以這唯一的現在唯一的救濟的方式只有像法務部所說的唯一只能用修法的方式嗎"},{"start":7184.319,"end":7210.681,"text":"跟委員報告這一個部分我們先說明在大法庭延遲辯論的時候事實上我們的最高檢在延遲辯論的時候堅定的表達說應該要關於這個條文在法案條例47條應該要參照立法理由所述是主要的目的是為了要填補犯罪被害人所受損害來做解釋那很無奈這個最高法院大法庭並沒有採取這樣的一個見解"},{"start":7211.602,"end":7227.165,"text":"所以現在目前會有最快的速度來提出相關的法條的文字的修法讓文藝更明確來反映在立法旅遊的目的上面所以現在看起來唯有修法意圖囉"},{"start":7228.766,"end":7249.798,"text":"因為這個法律解釋的權責還是在這個中省的法院也是最高法院在大法庭的裁定事實上確實會發生解釋上的拘束力那麼既然大法庭已經做除非大法庭另外再重新做出不同意見的解釋我覺得這件事情是不是也反映出我們的法院是不是跟人民離得太遠"},{"start":7250.658,"end":7266.95,"text":"如果之前不管是立法院的通過的這個條例或者法務部所認定的那麼跟我們司法院大法庭這個最高法院的大法庭所做出來宣告離得這麼遠最後我們又要用修法的方式來加以彌補"},{"start":7268.971,"end":7298.211,"text":"這是不是就是我們真的覺得在司法上我們有些人是覺得政治干預司法好這個我倒是覺得這跟政治無關但是這也是讓人民對於司法沒有任何信心的主要的原因嘛好大家都認為說這個詐欺就是詐騙我們要嚴打嚴罰結果我們做出來的這個判就是做出來的判決還是有利於加害人而不是有利於被害人"},{"start":7299.372,"end":7307.272,"text":"是不是我們都是 我們司法上是不是都是有這樣的問題啊我們 鳳斌署長可以回答我嗎"},{"start":7308.342,"end":7335.6,"text":"那個報告委員我想那個大法庭他們會有這樣子的一個那個做出一個這樣子的那個解釋他們是有他們那個法理的那個根據的那在那個大法庭的裁定理由裡面也都有那個交代我要講的就是說在詐騙這件事情已經到了人神共憤了民怨沸騰的狀況之下然後我們還是可以關在冷氣房裡面做出我們自己的判決同樣的我也請教我們的這個次長"},{"start":7338.462,"end":7352.284,"text":"我們最近大家認為說司法到底能不能信任最近你們有一位檢察官升官就是林俊炎這當然這位林俊炎檢察官之前我也不認識他"},{"start":7353.826,"end":7367.32,"text":"那主要是 他是偵辦柯文哲的案件所以呢 突然聲名大噪果不其然呢 他也就升官了我想請問一下 在最近這一兩年我們檢察官系統裡面升官怎麼都是辦這些政治案件 辦到政治正確"},{"start":7377.87,"end":7384.174,"text":"然後通通可以升官之前前有我們的法務部長鄭明謙因為他辦了林兹廟然後立刻官運亨通然後接下來辦高雄安的幾個檢察官辦完之後通通升官"},{"start":7396.641,"end":7420.023,"text":"好那現在又有林俊炎也是辦了柯文哲的案子也立刻升官接下來朱家榮一樣的他辦吳思瑤吳沛毅立委罷免聯署的檢察官也立刻被推薦然後在升官的名單上啦好同樣的郭劍玉也是來辦柯文哲的案子通通升官所以"},{"start":7422.871,"end":7448.858,"text":"政治正確是不是檢察官升官的?這樣講是非常不公平的這個表 檢察官他是申請轉任法官這也不能說是升官那其他的不是升官嗎?其他的事實上升主任檢察官目前本部有相當完整的程序不但要經過檢察官的票選而且還要有檢審會的機制來把關並不是單純由行政官員來占讀怎麼都那麼巧呢?"},{"start":7449.338,"end":7455.543,"text":"只要辦到政治正確的案件然後就那麼容易升官呢所以我要特別講喔在在司法裡面不管是政治案件或詐欺案件司法都應該成為維護人民正義的最後一道防線我剛才講的案例就是這個當然是你們法務部跟這個我們這個司法院之間這個宣告"},{"start":7478.18,"end":7481.845,"text":"的之間有漢格當然這個部分我是支持法務部的也許你們在第一線辦案然後一個一個宣告就讓你們真的就沒有辦法好好的研辦那同樣的法務部現在的檢察官我們也好多次的來做質詢"},{"start":7496.323,"end":7517.159,"text":"如果說今天林俊仁法官當然他辦的是柯文哲金華城的案件但是他現在所透露出的過程裡面包含他跑到醫院裡面然後要求關掉錄音錄影然後做詢問這個根本是不被容許的嘛"},{"start":7517.739,"end":7522.86,"text":"對不對 這樣子的一個辦案手法這樣一個 我現在還不講他把所有這些辦案的訊息通通透露給淨檢這個淨檢是你們部長所認證的你們的另外一個單位淨檢然後在他的辦案過程裡面可以到了醫院裡面把錄音錄影全部關掉然後來做詢問"},{"start":7543.546,"end":7571.294,"text":"這樣可以嗎這樣應該被懲罰吧怎麼還會被升官這是你要告訴所有的檢察官都可以這樣辦案嗎剛才所以講說法庭上要不要直播剛才省法會委員講到的一些可能有直播的一些的負面的作用其實我認為應該被檢討但是問題是大家非常擔心而且非常痛恨的司法辦案不能夠黑箱同不同意"},{"start":7572.074,"end":7588.961,"text":"就是不能黑箱嘛我想司法方案沒有黑箱的問題那請問我就講一件事你詢問你詢問一個被告然後關掉錄音錄影請問一下是不是黑箱這樣的辦案手法可以被鼓勵嗎你所說的事情被告辯護人都有全程在場的"},{"start":7590.357,"end":7604.831,"text":"你可以關掉錄音錄影嗎?可不可以關掉錄音錄影?你講了以後這個都做記錄就說你今天詢問檢察官詢問被告然後說要讓他咬出另外一個被告但是我把錄音錄影全部關掉你覺得可以嗎?來"},{"start":7606.212,"end":7621.232,"text":"市長說那一個事件北檢已經有新聞稿說明過了他並不是一個詢問而是依照羈押法去做的視察那最後呢也在他發文有沒有講是去詢問啊最後也有說明他發文有沒有去做詢問啊他跟"},{"start":7621.873,"end":7648.342,"text":"跟他跟醫院的發文就是去詢問啊所以也就是說法務部可以包庇可以縱容可以容忍檢察官這樣的黑箱辦案然後還可以讓他升官這是要做什麼樣的不是指案事這是民事所以我要講就是說如果我們今天辦案不管是詐欺辦案不管是這個政治性的辦案我覺得最不能容忍的就是黑箱辦案"},{"start":7649.707,"end":7660.781,"text":"同不同意所以我要講說為什麼大家通通都希望你們能夠公開啊尤其你們不能夠去鼓勵甚至讓這樣的檢察官去升官"},{"start":7661.778,"end":7677.43,"text":"全民沒有辦法信任今天如果柯文哲可以這樣明天如果對待你黃士傑你可以接受嗎對待我王宏偉我也不能接受啊檢察官怎麼可以就關掉錄音錄影然後只為了要說抓住黃士傑你只要咬住黃士傑我把你錄音錄影全部關掉可以這樣嗎這叫個案喔"},{"start":7684.816,"end":7705.512,"text":"蛤 你給他三關不就要通案了嗎你不是告訴全部的檢察官說你們都可以這樣幹嗎所以我要講的是我們一直支持檢察官在第一線辦案但是如果檢察官用不正當的黑箱辦案絕對不能容許 更是"},{"start":7706.252,"end":7718.018,"text":"更可離譜的是 竟然還可以讓他升官你們法部看這麼多的案例真的政治正確你們真的要讓檢察官都這樣幹法嗎如果檢察官如此的東廠化對我們的司法絕對只是傷害 好不好好 謝謝王偉委員這位黃次長的聲音剛好高一點點就旗鼓相當 很精彩接下來請吳思瑤委員詢問"},{"start":7746.338,"end":7758.922,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請我們的司法院副秘請王副秘書長然後法務部政次黃次長我特別請法服的莊董事長好 我原則"},{"start":7770.944,"end":7774.352,"text":"大家辛苦了今天題目有點多我們把握時間了下一頁"},{"start":7775.678,"end":7801.663,"text":"最近有立法委員公然的批判了法服只幫加害人他批判了法服幫加害人是司法的嚴重傾斜其實不光是張其凱委員在上週的這個言論早在今年的一二月我觀察到整個媒體的報導輿論嚴重的操作對於法服的污名化"},{"start":7802.623,"end":7819.094,"text":"譬如說我看到這個一月份吧這媒體也特別的在扭曲說法服幫助的都是詐欺犯然後幫助的案類的前五名都是加害者就是搭配"},{"start":7820.407,"end":7843.184,"text":"我不曉得張其凱委員是不是剛好就是看到一二月的那個錯誤的報導所以呢讓他做出了這種嚴重的打擊法服而且完全不符合事實的陳述任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重否則對於成立了21年的法服從三個分會開始現在22個分會我們幫助了無數的"},{"start":7848.407,"end":7869.863,"text":"為了捍衛憲法的這個訴訟權跟平等權為了捍衛了司法的公平性成立了法服多少個律師群專業人士來投入所以我想就教於董事長喔到底啊我們就先講服務對象好了法服都指幫忙加害人嗎當然不是首先呢感謝委員對於法服的支持"},{"start":7877.697,"end":7894.16,"text":"那我想呢,這個您剛剛的所提問的,其實民眾呢,是一般民眾都會這樣想的。但是多年來呢,法湖一直在宣導,我們法湖糊塗的對象,絕對不叫做幫助加害人。"},{"start":7895.188,"end":7913.16,"text":"我們都是在技弱來救平我們是針對法治國家裡面我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上我們在審判庭的時候那檢察官就代表了被害人"},{"start":7914.08,"end":7932.408,"text":"他對於被告直接的控訴呢他需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到我這裡有個資訊就我所調查的資料我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課而不是像張祺凱這樣無地放矢還涉及抹黑造假"},{"start":7933.929,"end":7954.012,"text":"法服的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭然後34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護的案件所以並沒有選擇你是加害人你是受害人因為法服在接案受理的時候你不能為審先判嘛所以我的資訊是正確的嗎"},{"start":7955.493,"end":7970.873,"text":"是的所以法服不是指幫加害人嘛就服務對象絕對不是不是就是不是請張綺凱委員收回她的話甚至要向服務法服的這些專業人士法律界的人士來道歉"},{"start":7971.994,"end":7980.756,"text":"第二個呢 就案件類啊我也去做了這個調查法服的協助的案件類最大宗有10142件 18%其實是幫助人民做還債也就是信用卡的卡債"},{"start":7990.359,"end":8014.17,"text":"所以以案件來講也不是什麼詐欺類最多刑事案件最多所以除了對象不是只幫加害人他是一視同仁的 技弱救貧的然後在案件類也不是服務詐欺犯服務那些刑事案件的罪犯而是來幫助民眾最需要的而且因為他就是弱勢所以很多人是因為弱勢他可能去借錢可能去卡債"},{"start":8015.59,"end":8033.289,"text":"所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服"},{"start":8034.745,"end":8056.161,"text":"當然對法輔的誤解我們已經多年來一直在澄清我也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法輔這是我們施法裡面在輔助人民很安定的一股力量有22個分會4000多名法輔律師在幫全民做各種的法律服務絕對不是指因為特定"},{"start":8057.482,"end":8071.513,"text":"限定說是加害人或是被害人而是只要他是生活弱勢或者是說經濟上的弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當輔助的我們都一起包含在內"},{"start":8072.774,"end":8095.665,"text":"很重要的一個觀念我覺得我們的法治教育立委最需要受法治教育了這一年來其實法服是在程序正義上來幫忙所以程序正義上是一視同仁的法服不會成為法院之上的法院法服不會先去判定你這個來懲請協助的人是加害人是被害因為"},{"start":8096.545,"end":8117.326,"text":"不論法律上的加害被害都是要透過司法的偵查跟審判才能夠斷定嘛無罪推定嘛是所以辛苦你們了我們持續做對的事今天也有一個案子解凍是跟法輔被凍結了翁小玲委員凍結了一千萬我希望能夠替你們伸張正義謝謝謝謝好您請回好下一頁"},{"start":8118.789,"end":8137.397,"text":"那跟騷法的三週年回到今天的這個專報的主題其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一三年了我們需要好好的檢視我們先用數字2022年上路到現在我們各警察機關受理的案件有8488件家暴類38%一般跟騷62%左右"},{"start":8143.479,"end":8170.665,"text":"而以2024去年一整年呢 跟騷處理有2806件當中對我們最有意義的是說警方呢 警政部門核發了書面告誡的比率其實很高 67%而法院核發跟騷保護令的比例也很高 67%而我認為很有意義的是經由檢方核發書面告誡他再犯跟騷的比例是低於10%"},{"start":8172.245,"end":8191.606,"text":"而且經由法院核發了跟騷的保護令之後呢在持續加害持續跟騷的低於5%換言之就達到我們當初的立法以及制度的一個有效的一個陰影兩位是不是都看到正面的結果哪一位要代表"},{"start":8193.348,"end":8208.695,"text":"那個同一位人所說的齁那其實我們那個法院那個統計裡面可能是那個基準不一樣我們的甚至還到達七成是是是到七成法院合法到達七成好我整理的是百分之六十七點三好下一頁"},{"start":8209.946,"end":8236.838,"text":"但是呢當初我們在倡議的時候在立法的時候都一直認為他的對象啊都要限縮於與性及性別有關當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見當然我們理解警政部門認為資源有限警政部門認為說先優先從這種高風險的案件因為在立法那個時候是很多情殺啦跟騷之後被殺害"},{"start":8239.699,"end":8268.243,"text":"所以優先從這種對象來下手但是上路了三年以後是不是可以更妥協的去我們可不可能嚴議來增訂成案的排除條款更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類為什麼這麼說呢可能是傑次長要回應我發現很多跟騷的人是被黑道討債的啦對不對那像這種案類很清楚"},{"start":8269.306,"end":8286.473,"text":"是不是就可以納入一個跟騷的範圍各位很棒因為這個是內政部主管的法令那你認為呢我想這個要經過通盤的研議因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有那時候你還是立委你也參與這個法律討論那我們內政部的代表好嗎那個馬次長"},{"start":8289.935,"end":8304.144,"text":"如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關其實你真的沒有辦法幫助我說黑道討債就是很明顯的一個案例啊他派黑道來跟騷你造成你身心靈的壓力甚至有進一步的暴力事件來次長"},{"start":8306.031,"end":8329.568,"text":"其實我們除了黑道到暴力討債之後我們還有聚眾滋擾跟鄰里糾紛還有記者追蹤那總共有四個樣態是跟目前的更少法的構成要件這是不一樣那有一個比較重要的考量就是說因為如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動這樣的一個過程"},{"start":8330.228,"end":8334.325,"text":"那對一般人來講但我在聚焦嘛我說那黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的"},{"start":8336.658,"end":8362.518,"text":"因為目前的話黑照討債主要是依照刑法跟警方的條文我覺得這個大哉問啦當初我們在立法的時候我講過的話我今天還是希望能夠好好在三週年因為原本三週年上路你們就要檢視法律好下面的意見下一頁我再講下一頁請你們一併納入檢視了也就是相對人的治療性的處遇計畫"},{"start":8364.139,"end":8386.88,"text":"比照家暴案例我發現一個我講重點家暴案例對於這些處遇計畫其實它是有警政跟涉政跟衛政的協力才能夠提出具體的處遇性計畫也能夠有效來幫助但是對於跟遭只是著重在警政方面的作為對於處遇"},{"start":8388.681,"end":8398.846,"text":"就真的沒有辦法做到是不是有這樣子的問題還有包括那個申請人的那個要預繳預繳這個可以用啊整個不友善的處遇性計畫"},{"start":8400.08,"end":8419.705,"text":"跟委包這個被害人要預繳這個部分我們跟衛福部在協調因為他的確是一個不合理的設計而且不低耶對這個不合理這個我們都從被害人的角度我們都知道這個有問題什麼時候會有答案我們會盡快因為我們在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表我們有見過面好加速好嗎好"},{"start":8422.006,"end":8435.827,"text":"那其他的儲蓄計畫那委員剛有提到就是說儲蓄性計畫的話如果我們法院根據更少法第12條第一項第三款有合法保護令的話它的治療性儲蓄計畫它是有強制力的"},{"start":8436.536,"end":8455.784,"text":"可是那要這相對困難嘛對那如果說是那個其他的法條他有這個所謂的認知輔導或教育的話他就不是具有強制力的部分市長你可能不是這方面的專業啦你是防災的專家啦我建議喔三周年就是要好好檢視跟騷法我提出來的幾個"},{"start":8456.904,"end":8475.933,"text":"譬如說範圍的界定以及這個處遇性的計畫內容不夠具體不夠明確以至於它過偏於在警政如何讓衛政跟社政的系統能夠融入然後還有剛剛你說的那個申請人預繳的那個處遇性費用我當然支持要馬上能做的馬上做我希望我們未來還有機會來討論好好去把三週年上路以後的檢視計畫"},{"start":8481.996,"end":8490.243,"text":"檢討計畫再提出來否則我還是正面的肯定我剛剛第一頁秀出來的相當高的警察員警當初都很怕案類很多"},{"start":8491.249,"end":8511.777,"text":"看起來我覺得還是一個很好的執行成績嘛我們很努力啊因為這個部分的確一定要保護這個部分的好我們希望保護能夠不漏接不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人的心理壓力好嗎那我們今天就希望等一下司法院還有稍後國安會的解凍都能夠順利好謝謝我們完整檢討謝謝謝謝吳斯堯委員接下來請林淑芬委員選擇"},{"start":8528.971,"end":8534.215,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們司法院的副秘書長請王副秘書長副秘書長 我今天不是要跟你討論根騷而是要跟你討論三峽重大的死亡車禍案件三死十二傷那如果這樣子的話 你知道他們的民事訴訟的審理是怎麼 是拿一種審理模式嗎一般審理 還是簡易審理"},{"start":8559.011,"end":8576.81,"text":"我請那個廳長來回覆廳長你不知道這個我去年就問過了廳長知道啦你 副秘書長你現在是司法院的最高行政這個管理的首長這個目前那個民事訴訟法這是屬於那個檢疫案件跟交通相關的"},{"start":8577.791,"end":8602.949,"text":"我是要告訴你如果是民事訴訟的官司啊從110年還是哪一年修法以後全部一律改成簡易訴訟程序民事訴訟法第433之1條這是很重大的變革但是如果是刑事附帶民事一樣是什麼審理你知道嗎"},{"start":8604.844,"end":8633.592,"text":"你也不知道 那我再跟你講刑事部對民事 向刑事庭提出的民事訴訟的審理理論上刑事庭 刑事庭還是會移到民事庭去處理民事庭還是一樣交給檢疫庭審理那請問你13傷亡3個人死亡 13個人輕重傷如果是這樣的民事訴訟官司啊是檢疫審理 你可以接受嗎"},{"start":8636.399,"end":8640.958,"text":"報告委員我想當時修的時候在立法院修的時候他是有他的那個考量的"},{"start":8642.092,"end":8666.651,"text":"所以我要藉著今天這個三峽的重大的死亡車禍和13個輕重傷這麼重大的車禍來告訴你當初修法的時候只想到要趕快結案可是訴訟的最核心是要實現當事人的權利是要實踐審判的公平要得到一個公平的審判可是你們為了趕快趕快趕快然後呢"},{"start":8668.692,"end":8678.039,"text":"把所有的交通事故的民事訴訟全部改成檢疫審理而檢疫審理的特色是什麼它的特性是什麼你不知道喔檢疫審理來委員不好意思可以容我來應以一次其日辯論終結為原則"},{"start":8691.331,"end":8698.64,"text":"應以一次其日辯論終結為原則但是我知道民視庭有檢附資料給我過我有看過"},{"start":8700.868,"end":8712.112,"text":"在111年5520個省捷的交通這個民事訴訟裡面有1690次不是省一次我知道然後在112年9350件裡面有3789件不是省一次在113年的前10個月8576件有3347件不是省一次但是但是來了現在啊我在講"},{"start":8730.658,"end":8734.22,"text":"副秘書長為什麼要再跟你講 因為前一個副秘書長大家都亂講 立委的質詢都亂講事實上呢 我現在要講 你看起來好像法官審人仔細不止一次你知道簡義廷的法官 我在這裡講過 簡義廷的法官每個月包括銀行債權等等 每個月超過100件以上要審結"},{"start":8758.457,"end":8786.586,"text":"100件以上所以他說基本上啊 基本上他們都不會做出這個事實的這個證據的調查你知道這個交通事故的審理啊不只是遭受責任的比例醫療的費用 看護的費用撫養費用需要調查 失能的失能的比例要鑑定所以當然不可能是一次"},{"start":8787.768,"end":8814.643,"text":"你們當時的黃凌倫的副秘書長就說很難一次但是大多數都一次然後還說當事人可以請求改為一般審理可是當事人請求改成一般審理有一個要件要法院和法官同意法院和法官同意你們最喜歡講當事人程序自主權"},{"start":8816.57,"end":8843.358,"text":"在這個時候就沒有當事人程序自主權了沒有只能法院或法官同意而不是當事人說我請求要改為一般審理 通常程序審理就可以沒有在這種狀況裡面在這種狀況裡面我又講 去年我就講了通常檢議庭的法官不會幫你改成一般程序審理為什麼你知道嗎 副秘書長"},{"start":8846.38,"end":8867.51,"text":"來 廳長 你經過了 你知道 你再講一次跟委員報告啦 因為我以前也擔任過檢疫庭的法官其實以檢疫庭法官的立場你什麼時候當過檢疫庭的法官 幾年十幾年前 這個法律才剛改啦所以你的時代沒有這種制度啦沒有 我是要跟委員報告是說以檢疫庭法官的立場 他改成通常程序反而是他會歡迎的"},{"start":8870.759,"end":8889.259,"text":"這跟委員說明一下簡義廷的法官改成通常程序他會歡迎因為我們的那個要件裡面綁兩個嘛一個是五百萬以上一個是案情複雜請委員讓我說明完畢您再做您的高見批評因為簡義廷法官來講他改成通常程序要辦案期限是延長的"},{"start":8890.871,"end":8905.848,"text":"也就是說他不用在比較短的時間去做我們一般認為還有沒有另外一個理由是什麼還有沒有其他的說法那另外就是說當事人本身他如果對這個案件真的是要求通通的去與剛才委員垂詢的那個三峽的不幸往生案例為例"},{"start":8907.249,"end":8916.654,"text":"這種案例來講 正常狀況就是案情複雜而且他一定是超過五百萬你現在是不死人間煙火他這一個個案 你聽我說他可以改為一般通常程序審理前提是檢疫庭的法官要繼續審理然後呢 調查程序可能會很久然後呢 不要忘了他的案件每個月交付來的他案件永遠累積在那裡"},{"start":8936.414,"end":8960.248,"text":"你們當初為什麼改成啊不把檢疫庭他如果改成一般審理就移交給一般庭去審理因為你們就是怕檢疫庭的法官偷懶你們自己當初就講怕他把所有案件都移到一般庭那把這種東西再留下來他不是搬石頭砸自己的腳我每個月用一百多元為了你一件又要拖後來又有這種改成一般審理我就繼續拖"},{"start":8966.491,"end":8980.633,"text":"永無寧日啦現在這次簡怡婷的法官又不是笨蛋事實上簡怡婷的法官也想要這樣子我的辦公室接到幾個簡怡婷法官的家屬來陳情她在我質詢完以後 妳說妳說出了我們的心聲欸"},{"start":8981.875,"end":9002.773,"text":"你十幾年前是檢議庭的法官你現在不是你如果檢議庭怎麼審理的你都不知道如果改成一般通常程序審理還是你這個檢議庭的法官在審理他會做事他不可能我現在跟你說改成通常程序審理的比例有多高嗎通常程序審理的比例有多高你知道嗎多高你知道嗎好我有資料"},{"start":9008.353,"end":9019.481,"text":"他從檢疫程序改成一般審理通常程序審理110年5,520件裡面有42件112年9,350件裡面有52件113年的前10個月8,576件裡面有48件比例是千分之7.6千分之5.6千分之5.6"},{"start":9037.239,"end":9054.398,"text":"我現在要跟你說 當然我不是講三峽這個個案但我從三峽這個個案裡面要告訴你 把修法改成所有交通事故包括三峽這個案子 全部一律交給警議庭去審理"},{"start":9057.161,"end":9076.475,"text":"這是多麼荒謬的事情而你到現在你民視聽聽長你還說簡義廷的法官很歡迎你這個是與事實不符你這個叫不食人間煙火你這個叫做吃飯卡中的你不知道你簡義廷的法官現在是做到要死"},{"start":9078.817,"end":9079.898,"text":"然後呢這個是忽略了當事人要實現當事人要實現自己的權利啊"},{"start":9089.454,"end":9106.575,"text":"委員我稍微回應兩點第一點當初為什麼要把道路交通案件改為檢驗案件就檢驗案件的本質它這是一個原則它會快速讓被害者加速獲償加速獲得交通案件樣態霸霸俏交通事件的樣態好幾種你"},{"start":9109.618,"end":9120.989,"text":"小小的擦傷 沒有什麼大的傷害 也是交通案件三死十二輕重傷 也是交通案件你們現在是疑慮欸 疑慮"},{"start":9123.669,"end":9145.8,"text":"委員我們現在是原則例外的問題原則為了讓被害者快收場原則原則是這樣子但你的例外啊事實上是很難啊例外可以依法官來獨立一當事人的要求另外跟委員報告當事人的程序自主權我現在要求當事人的程序自主權如果你限縮在五百萬以上那一百萬的"},{"start":9150.427,"end":9168.797,"text":"我損失一百萬的人 我的命 我的胸 我的命比五百萬的人 比較不值錢我的胸 我比一百萬的人 比較不值錢你們就可以去申請 我就不可以申請我現在人命有貴賤嗎 第一個第二個 當事人權利 自主 程序自主我們要求當事人程序自主 你的門檻要效降因為 人的命 是一樣的"},{"start":9179.707,"end":9196.107,"text":"你五百萬是很大的門檻耶 很高的門檻委員 我們還有一個門檻叫案情複雜案情複雜所以實際上 五十一萬案情複雜也可以轉那案情簡單 但是損失四百九十萬的這不就不值得改成一般審理了嗎那要由個案來判決那我問你 那我問你"},{"start":9196.727,"end":9200.069,"text":"妳在整個生理程序裡面 我講過喔 我講過文化資本高的 經濟資本高的我要幾年 我已經準備得好 我要去跟他們說我的失能程度 我的傷重程度 然後我的看護費用我的撫養費用 我的肇事責任 我的醫療費用我通通準備好了 我看護費用 我整理好了文化資本高的 經濟資本高的沒問題 我都準備好了"},{"start":9222.04,"end":9230.146,"text":"可是呢 文化資本低的 經濟資本低的你以為到法院就是請求正義的開始你去那裡什麼都不知道 都沒準備然後跟你說 你這個一百萬的傷亡 你請求一百萬而已好啦 回去啦 沒啦 沒再開啦 算啦 沒啦"},{"start":9239.414,"end":9254.002,"text":"跟委員報告因為交通案件如果致人死傷一般都有刑事案件我剛才前面就講了 你就忘了嗎我現在剛才說的 刑事附帶民事 刑事聽來 刑事聽不來"},{"start":9255.575,"end":9270.461,"text":"他會刑事庭自己審理嗎通常法院的運作都是移出到民事庭對不對來 刑事庭 廳長實務上是這個樣子實務上是嘛 那移到民事庭以後民事庭以後是不是交給檢疫審理"},{"start":9272.416,"end":9296.666,"text":"對 但是因為證據資料都有啊 相關的證據資料在刑事案件都有 它會依照民調你每一件都說得很簡單的 我剛才甚至可以說六十十個甚至我剛剛都沒有把卷宗看完啦 不要再這麼騙啦所以我是要跟你講 我現在跟你講 至少你要給當事人給當事人一個 你們最喜歡講的程序自主權"},{"start":9298.207,"end":9323.419,"text":"而我們提出了要從檢疫審理改成一般審理的時候至少要不是你們決定我們也要有決定權你們想法大小通知我們都給改成這樣這已經很亂來啊然後我現在就說你們完全都不覺得自己有問題完全不覺得這個制度運作下來損害了多少當事人的權利"},{"start":9325.064,"end":9348.181,"text":"這個才是最令人覺得可悲的啦司法 副秘書長 副秘書長 跟麥哥說你們黃凌倫當初在講胡說八道的還說簡易庭改成一般庭審理不用寫書面裁定這也亂說的然後我們還要求什麼 還說非上訴你說簡易庭的法官"},{"start":9349.122,"end":9375.043,"text":"民事訴訟的時候 把肇事責任的50看成20能不能飛上訴到第三審 還說會死的根本就不可能 都不會贏的委員不好意思 我再補充一下 剛才委員提到說一定要下正式書面裁定 沒有我們在113年12月26號也發一個通函有囉 我叫你發 你發了齁不是 它在法律上本來就是一個程序性裁定啊程序上裁定喔 它本來就是記名百例 口頭預知 你在什麼時候發的"},{"start":9377.044,"end":9398.269,"text":"113年12月26號對阿 我質詢了 叫你們發來 黃玲倫我叫她發來嘛那張公文沒給我看 我叫你們給我看 你們也沒有好 來 我剛才說非上訴 第三審因為你的民事訴訟有別 簡義廷的訴訟有別於一般訴訟其實是不准 不准上訴到第三審的"},{"start":9399.25,"end":9413.73,"text":"剝奪掉了 除非有特殊要件啊除非是引用的法律錯誤啊那我剛才講了如果法官把被害者的私能比例是50 看成20他的判決就給他寫成20他能不能再上訴到第三審 不行"},{"start":9415.3,"end":9435.585,"text":"這制度面就有問題我是從三峽三個人死亡 十二個輕重傷一律都有這個問題來告訴你你們的修法問題很大傅秘書長如果說像您剛才提到那個比例原則比例的問題明顯說是它可以構成再整治室友"},{"start":9436.82,"end":9462.371,"text":"在審的事由法條上面是怎麼寫法條上面是怎麼寫這在我們民事訴訟法裡面法條上面寫的是四百六十六條不是來四百六十六條當事人僅得以其適用法規顯有錯誤為理由適用法規顯有錯誤才可以飛越上訴"},{"start":9465.163,"end":9485.225,"text":"請問,把失能的比例從50看成20,叫做適用法規,顯有錯誤嗎?我們在檢疫案件裡面是擴大的,它不只是這個而已好啦,現在還可以,因為朱先生站起來很久了啦副秘書長,我的罪惡問你啦,剛才講的一律,一律都以檢疫審理"},{"start":9487.546,"end":9497.412,"text":"這樣才對三峽的死亡三死 十二輕重傷的事故一律也是檢疫審理 這樣才好政策評估的結論是什麼"},{"start":9517.574,"end":9535.815,"text":"你也不知道,不要再說了,再說你也是再說那套啦沒有變啦,你們沒有變你們也不所謂的程序自主權也不還給當事人啦你們的門檻也沒有下調啦你們所謂的可以這個上訴再審的條件啦一樣是不行的啦好啦,謝謝"},{"start":9537.236,"end":9565.443,"text":"好 謝謝林淑芬委員接下來我們請翁曉琳委員其實列席的官員可以多一點你們的委員的詢問的時候可以把自己的專業不用怕不好意思啦這樣才會比較精彩一點尤其是碰到翁曉琳委員 好不好好的 謝謝主席那我們首先先請王副秘書長"},{"start":9567.248,"end":9595.017,"text":"請王副秘書長王副秘書長是非常非常專業的這個王副秘早安委員早安我今天的這個質詢我想有幾個重點我首先我想請教就是針對大法官在113年憲判之八號判決做成之後那麼不知道現在司法院是不是已經有提出相關的修法"},{"start":9596.26,"end":9611.049,"text":"就針對像是法官要以自決等等的這些大法官在憲判自8號當中所預知的就是要啟動修法現在司法院有動作了嗎"},{"start":9614.77,"end":9630.468,"text":"司法院在那個宪判八之後呢有關於刑事還有那個法院組織法那個部分現在都有就是進入那個研修的那個程序那現在目前有組成一個委員會已經進行了那個好幾次的那個會議了那主要就是說"},{"start":9631.889,"end":9632.23,"text":"你們預計什麼時候會提出?"},{"start":9654.784,"end":9667.206,"text":"我們那個六月就是因為討論討論得非常的那個充分那些已經進行了好幾次那六月的時候還有那個下一次下一次的那個會議是在六月"},{"start":9668.41,"end":9697.98,"text":"也就是說是你們大概在接下來大概六七月七八月的時候可能就可以提出你們的司法院的法案修法的法案是嗎今年一定會提出來的因為在上個禮拜其實中選會他沒收了立法院所提出來的公投這個當然我認為中選會是違法濫權他根本無權去審查立法院所提出的公投案更何況我們針對大法官所提出的"},{"start":9700.13,"end":9726.778,"text":"這個判處死刑是否需要經過法官一致決的這樣的議題然後請人民表示意見是否贊成大法官所提示的所做成的這樣的一個判決理由那這個當然會涉及到我們這個之後立法院就相關的案子的這個重大政策立法政策但是很遺憾的這個中選會已經不是獨立機關了就是一個政治機關"},{"start":9727.618,"end":9743.066,"text":"那麼竟然還敢沒收立法院的公投案更何況在我們現在的公投法裡面施立法院通過公投案時候交由中選會辦理所以中選會不應該"},{"start":9748.857,"end":9767.049,"text":"拒絕這個不辦的權利不過這個部分當然跟司法院無關所以我在這裡只是提醒就是詢問有關於司法院現在修法的進度那接下來我要請教就是說在114年度司法院的總預算案有沒有比113年還有增加還是減少114年整個是增加的整個是增加 增加多少錢"},{"start":9775.495,"end":9778.077,"text":"那個數字我得看一下那個數字增加16億多吧"},{"start":9786.421,"end":9808.68,"text":"大概是這個數字所以整體來說是司法院的預算是有比去年增加因為我們現在知道民進黨黨團行政院他們都有針對114年的政府總預算案提起釋憲請問這次的提起釋憲的範圍針對總預算案提起釋憲的範圍有包含司法院的預算嗎"},{"start":9815.282,"end":9820.306,"text":"因為我們的世華運的預算是併在中央政府總預算裡面所以說他整個事先案應該是包含我們是屬於裡面的一部分"},{"start":9836.202,"end":9850.397,"text":"所以他們之前申請釋憲這個114年總預算釋憲案都沒有來徵詢過司法院的意見要不要把你們司法院的預算也納在申請釋憲的範圍裡面都沒有徵詢過司法院的意見嗎"},{"start":9851.806,"end":9879.096,"text":"沒有都沒有所以你們就莫名其妙的就被這個申請釋憲你們是有針對今年的今年度通過的這個預算案有任何不滿的地方嗎不是他釋憲是整個中央政府總預算但是我們是包含在這裡面那麼請問一下監察院之前他們申請的預算案的釋憲他也是針對整個一包嗎114年的總預算案嗎還是針對他們的部分"},{"start":9883.35,"end":9901.97,"text":"公務員說明監察院的部分是就他們監察院的預算部分所以就代表是可以分開的嘛那你如果司法院你們沒有認為說我的預算案的部分有申請釋憲的必要那的話為什麼行政院這麼不尊重司法院喔直接把你們的預算案一起併在114年的總預算裡面然後一起申請釋憲"},{"start":9904.329,"end":9926.733,"text":"我覺得司法院要出來抗議啊 如果說你們沒有認為這一次我們立法院審查司法院的預算有顯不合理或是這個影響到你們司法院權益的地方的話 你們可以拒絕啊所以我認為說行政院 卓榮泰是很不尊重司法院的"},{"start":9928.264,"end":9954.724,"text":"他應該要徵詢你們的意見你們的部分要不要提出放在14年的預算案裡面去申請釋憲我接下來要講的就是說從法律的角度來看假設我們現在假設憲法法庭認為14年總預算案可能全部或部分的違憲退回給立法院重審"},{"start":9957.515,"end":9968.641,"text":"請問 副女士長 你們有沒有信心你們的預算經費會和現在一樣嗎或是至少比現在更增加嗎你們有沒有想過這個問題因為現在是申請釋憲嘛所以代表這個預算案的效率是什麼"},{"start":9983.939,"end":10007.14,"text":"可能是屬於一個這個實質上效率未定的問題雖然我們知道說預算經過立法院三讀通過之後的法定預算在大法官的解釋把它定位為措施性法律對不對既然定位為措施性法律它就生效了所以已經在執行了那麼如果說憲法法庭之後"},{"start":10008.874,"end":10034.579,"text":"很白目的真的宣告了這個2014年的政府總預算案全部或是部分違憲那麼後續的呢後續的效率為何這部分其實我蠻想聽聽看司法院的高見你們會認為說現在的這個預算執行到某個程度之後全部都無效所以你們執行也全無效然後全部回到這個原點然後發回給立法院重新審"},{"start":10036.104,"end":10063.385,"text":"一個報委員因為這個部分涉及那個大法官他們那個解釋那個權責所以我們司法行政我們真的那個沒有我覺得是一個法律的問題因為這涉及到其他的所有的機關啊是對如果說當時司法院你們的預算案沒有在朱鎔泰申請預算的這個範圍裡面那或許這個部分比較不會受到影響但是現在申請了釋憲而且是整包"},{"start":10064.827,"end":10083.625,"text":"也會影響到司法院的權益啊所以坦白說我也在思考就是我們今天審查這些解凍案有意義嗎我們都解凍了解凍了之後呢最好是大法官他如果說真的這個把所有的預算案宣告違憲重審退回來重審那我告訴你我們"},{"start":10085.158,"end":10094.782,"text":"這個有了上一次的經驗我們這一次在審查一定會更嚴格把關每一項預算都給你指的清清楚楚的哪裡要刪要砍狀況會比現在更好嗎是"},{"start":10103.208,"end":10132.207,"text":"同樣的邏輯現在這個申請釋憲預算的申請釋憲的還不只是針對一四年總預算案那麼還有就是才化法才化法那我現在這邊當然不針對才化法那我現在要強的就是說在這個行政院他針對一四年預算提出釋憲可是呢他現在呢竟然說把我們要求行政院自己要這個統刪自己要去"},{"start":10134.214,"end":10134.677,"text":"進行這個經費安排的636億"},{"start":10138.049,"end":10166.378,"text":"他把這個部分轉嫁出去讓中央政府讓地方政府吸收所以就是說刪不是刪行政院跟他的部會機關而是行政院把該刪的這筆636億就是由地方縣市政府去刪他們的一般性的補助款那麼我想請問在這一次的統三的636億裡面司法院自己本身有沒有吸收部分的經費還是都沒有並沒有"},{"start":10167.758,"end":10180.011,"text":"並沒有嘛那在過去如果說我們想到這個政府立法院通過有些統刪的經費的時候司法院過去有沒有曾經有吸收過部分的這個經費"},{"start":10182.88,"end":10204.378,"text":"統三經費統三經費就是依照統三的比例我們還是會刪統三的比例還是會刪是是是所以就是113年以前的預算你們仍然是會部分的統三會被吸收嗎每年都不是吸收就依照你們的決議的比例去刪每年都這樣但是今年沒有"},{"start":10204.798,"end":10228.232,"text":"不是 今年還是有依照通商的比例但是沒有去吸收那600多 剩下的那個部分是 但是在過去的話其實也有部分嘛譬如說可能剩下大概幾十億或是100億可能就是由行政院自己去吸收還是說司法院也會吸收沒有 我們通通是依照那個比例下去刪的依照通商的比例下去刪的好 那就所以今年的636億就沒有讓你們去承擔嘛"},{"start":10231.883,"end":10257.053,"text":"承擔部分的經費我們只是依照通商的比例至於那個三減不足的部分是沒有的三減不足在過去三減不足的部分的話你們司法院也會被沒有沒有下來都沒有所以就是說過去這個三減不足的地方大概就是由行政院中央政府他們自己就去吸收了所以這一次卓榮泰他們這樣的做法"},{"start":10258.313,"end":10285.206,"text":"也是違反過去的做法因為在過去他們沒有這麼做但是他現在因為要為了大罷免為了要反制國會的在野黨所以故意的把這636億本來自己應該要所謂自己要去吸收的這個部分然後轉嫁給地方政府"},{"start":10288.824,"end":10315.356,"text":"這從剛剛司法院的口中裡面就知道所以其實在過去是沒有這樣的做法由此可見這個卓榮泰他們這樣的作為基本上是是非常糟糕很可惡的好OK那麼我想就是有關於這個新天樂另外一部分是要針對司法院的預算審查好審查那我們待會呢真的再進入到預算審查的時候我再來提出我的意見好謝謝"},{"start":10316.277,"end":10325.878,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員那由於早上詢問到現在都沒有休息了我們先休息五分鐘等一下我們繼續"},{"start":10731.687,"end":10754.762,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請鄭天才委員詢答好 主席 各位委員 有請內政部次長 還有保務部次長請黃次長 還有馬次長"},{"start":10762.845,"end":10790.474,"text":"委員好兩位好這個跟蹤騷擾防治法從立法院第九屆這個討論了在內政委會討論了非常多次然後到第十屆上一屆在立法院也是一樣討論了很多次這個行政部門一直不是那麼積極所以是立法院"},{"start":10791.713,"end":10820.603,"text":"市立法院的委員非常的積極的所以在上一屆能夠完成經過了三年所以非常謝謝召委能夠安排今天針對三年三週年後制度的成效實務偵查審判困境以未來修法的展望做專題報告那看了今天的報告我們先看內政部"},{"start":10822,"end":10843.024,"text":"內政部的報告裡面這個從施行之後受理到今年的4月30號各警察機關受理跟蹤騷擾案件共8488件家庭暴力的跟騷案件約38.25%"},{"start":10846.897,"end":10854.897,"text":"非家暴跟騷案件佔比約61.75%所以這個非家暴的案件"},{"start":10856.195,"end":10881.659,"text":"竟然比例很高,61.75%當然這個家暴、家庭的關係會比較有一些因素但是既然是非家暴以外的這些比例真的是相當的高這個就是怎麼樣去因應相關的修法或是執行在這個行為太陽裡面"},{"start":10883.001,"end":10908.196,"text":"各警察機關受理跟騷案件共有兩萬一千六百零八次跟騷行為其中以通訊騷擾百分之二十四點三最多這個也是必須要去正視的但是盯騷尾隨的那更危險了二十一點六也是相當高所以這個部分都是怎麼樣去因應去這個相關的這些"},{"start":10912.398,"end":10939.372,"text":"當然最辛苦的是警察單位警察人員他們一天到晚要受理不論是通訊的或是盯梢的都是警察第一線的同仁所以這個部分都是當然你們的人力都沒有增加啦所以這個部分是需要去檢討的我們先看保護部保護部的報告裡面"},{"start":10940.68,"end":10944.983,"text":"111年6月到12月總收件729總增結405起訴83,不起訴236比例非常高然後112年1751件"},{"start":10962.69,"end":10973.24,"text":"這個總增結1418件起訴315不起訴831比例也很高113年也是一樣都是不起訴875比例都很高當然我們沒有去質疑這個檢查"},{"start":10986.415,"end":11005.208,"text":"這個檢察官這些單位沒有去質疑他們而是說這個本來就是要去蒐集要去提證有它的難度跟騷嘛所以難度所以怎麼樣去在制度面法律面法律面去檢討"},{"start":11009.862,"end":11027.668,"text":"為什麼一定要請法務部部長因為現在這案件就算要檢討修法也是你內政部的警察單位還是內政部的警察單位他們就有限就各方面"},{"start":11029.69,"end":11049.071,"text":"第一線是他們沒有錯 但是送出去之後就變成法務部了 對不對那法務部送出去之後檢察官起訴之後就變成司法院了所以法務部要特別特別的去協助啊協助內政部內政部 次長 是不是這樣"},{"start":11050.803,"end":11063.74,"text":"謝謝委員 我們一起努力好 這個你過去一起完成我們請這一體互相協助你們要用的更多啦 用力要更多 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":11067.212,"end":11080.237,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員那我現在先處理會議時間如果我們上午的議程到12點還沒有結束的話我們中午就不休息了上午會議的時間我們就繼續進行接著我們請陳培餘委員質詢好謝謝主席有請司法院謝謝請王副秘書長"},{"start":11097.269,"end":11101.611,"text":"我們就快速進入今天的主題首先我想要跟您討論的是有關於跟騷法第三條有關於跟騷行為的定義還有構成要件其實剛剛司要委員也已經說了我們認為這個條件其實太過嚴苛那目前你們是用條列式的方法那我認為他沒有蓋過條款那我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子跟您討論為什麼我認為他過於嚴苛"},{"start":11125.703,"end":11137.885,"text":"在投影片的左手邊彩色這個內容這個內容我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個粉絲專頁它叫做直男行為研究所如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態是不在你們的條列當中這個粉絲專頁絕對是研究的寶庫但是這個寶庫絕對是負面教材所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛"},{"start":11152.808,"end":11167.461,"text":"左邊這一張他是行為人他一直在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文他也沒有直接貼給某一個人他就是一直貼但是呢我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到這個樣態你應該是清楚的"},{"start":11170.143,"end":11199.566,"text":"那他也沒有強迫對方要看可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力這是第一種樣態第二種在右上方這一張行為人他不斷的傳訊息給對方不斷的單方面的傳遞訊息但他很厲害他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關他可能是各式各樣的訊息那偶爾穿插一些跟性跟性別議題有關的一樣造成對方很大的壓力但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合"},{"start":11200.006,"end":11228.369,"text":"第三個右下方這一張是有一些行為人他沒有持續或者是反覆的去騷擾特定人但是他卻持續或反覆的騷擾不同的人那一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息來找到我結果我去網路上一撈發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為所以我今天舉的只是三種樣態"},{"start":11229.87,"end":11239.078,"text":"都其實跟你們的相關我剛說條列式的其實有很大的落差所以我們往下來看所以我想要跟副秘書長討論是這邊第一個關於可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限而且沒有概括條款"},{"start":11248.526,"end":11272.062,"text":"導致於漏接很多當事人的個案這是你剛剛看到了嘛我舉的這些例子第二個目前的條文我們只處理了性跟性別有關的跟蹤騷擾但是跟性跟性別無關的騷擾對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎我剛剛舉的這些例子你大概可以想像第三個目前法規中也沒有針對反覆或者是持續對"},{"start":11273.303,"end":11279.848,"text":"不特定的人做出了跟騷就是我剛舉例這三種樣態我想知道副秘書長還是內政部這邊要上來回答你們怎麼看還是我們讓內政部回答好 謝謝"},{"start":11288.479,"end":11315.458,"text":"我剛舉例的這些樣態我相信你沒有研究但也請相信我沒有研究我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找發現非常容易找到我剛說這些樣態我想要聽聽看你的說法我也好想如果說以內政部的立場的話因為像剛剛委員所舉的樣態我們基本上從寬認定在告借數的部分我們警方都可以來處理也可以處理但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分"},{"start":11316.738,"end":11344.608,"text":"因為跟性別有關這樣的一個定義事實上它也是相對比較模糊一點但是如果說對被害人造成壓力或是剛剛我們在之前報告的時候有提到就是說他無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活基本上我們都可以寬列我們對告解書發放的這樣的一個行動那用這個方式來嚇阻就是所謂的加害人他在這個方面的一個行為"},{"start":11345.39,"end":11363.78,"text":"但是我想就修法角度我認為我們應該有機會如同你剛剛講現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助所謂的被害人去處理這個樣態但是如果有機會放進跟掃法我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會再來討論"},{"start":11365.201,"end":11392.38,"text":"这边先谢谢那接下来我们来看一下根杀法第十二条还有提到所谓根杀保护令的核发内容其中第三款有提到可以命相对人完成所谓的治疗性处育计划那刚刚市要委员也有问到这一题目前是让被害人垫付相关鉴定费用对不对我们来看一下那我们找到你们的统计结果这个是司法院的自己做的统计资料从根杀法实行到现在为止"},{"start":11392.78,"end":11416.465,"text":"地方法院做出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少1 1 1 2 2 2這個數字這麼少我想知道是因為當事人他因為就是所謂的被害人他需要先墊付費用所以他沒有提出申請還是他們提出申請之後司法院這邊法官裁定不需要做出治療性處遇計畫我不知道背後數字代表的意義是什麼這個我請廳長來回覆好 謝謝"},{"start":11421.605,"end":11442.598,"text":"市委員好 跟委員報告那個關於目前我們剛有提到儲育計畫是目前現行保護令執行面的問題因為在那個這一個加害人是否需要儲育計畫的裁定他可能需要鑑定是那有一些案例曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定是因為"},{"start":11443.739,"end":11464.669,"text":"當事人他本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料所以法院就可以直接裁定那除此之外他必須鑑定那鑑定因為我們是准用民事訴訟法他必須當事人負擔對嘛 所以我的猜測是對的有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這個費用對 那個當事人墊付的部分因為這個部分在目前現行法制就沒有辦法去突破"},{"start":11465.349,"end":11484.933,"text":"那這個之前在跟內政部和衛福部在協商的時候其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題好那內政部也承諾說這部分他們會來改善好我們希望有積極的進度好不好好謝謝來從跟三我們來看到性別教育這邊要有請教育部但是司法院這邊請稍等一下教育部"},{"start":11489.312,"end":11508.694,"text":"很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉所以才會出現我剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言但最近發生關於金門縣京城國中這個命題的爭議我相信教育部是非常清楚的我不確定教育部你們現在知不知道他們調查委員會現在的結果是什麼對於這個老師"},{"start":11509.835,"end":11528.272,"text":"嗯 就我們了解目前他們的性評調查小組是還在調查中但是對他們的教評會已經針對他們這一次的那個命題還有審題的疏失已經對教師有進行記過的處分那命題的教師目前是先暫時挺評六個月盡待他們性評調查小組的調查結果好"},{"start":11530.354,"end":11549.068,"text":"我不知道你手上有沒有看過這個老師他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心"},{"start":11550.089,"end":11571.681,"text":"我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯"},{"start":11576.323,"end":11591.769,"text":"那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題"},{"start":11594.318,"end":11610.044,"text":"是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不適任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎"},{"start":11611.504,"end":11622.556,"text":"我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性評調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些諮詢輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性評會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個"},{"start":11633.587,"end":11659.141,"text":"學校他們在進行一些考題的一些命題的部分要怎麼樣做一個精進的改進我們會在課程處做一個進一步的討論當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯所以你剛才回應我也看到了你說從個案看通案但是我也要說這個個案我認為他的問題會很嚴重要拜託教育部持續的關切那其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這個事情發生之後他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說"},{"start":11660.422,"end":11681.218,"text":"今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育但我要提的是其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了很多有心的老師也好或者是家長啊 志工其實他們真的會主動學習確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好但是就是有像這樣子的駭群之馬讓很多原本很用心"},{"start":11681.618,"end":11700.73,"text":"很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念的老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見所以我認為除了對像這樣不良的個案我們要積極進行輔導跟協助並且做出正確的裁處之外我們也要對於現場第一線非常認真工作而且貫徹性平理念在不同課程裡面老師給予獎勵好嗎是 謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":11703.652,"end":11725.143,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來看一下 教育部請回 謝謝好 接下來來看一下司法院這邊關於司法院過勞環境等一下我們要討論到預算的部分我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分我們今天不討論個案但是從他們的個案看見目前整個司法體系的過勞那在"},{"start":11729.165,"end":11750.28,"text":"許院長卸任前他的一個公開信他就呼籲希望從制度面人力面給予司法院更多的協助期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改院警"},{"start":11750.7,"end":11770.027,"text":"我想知道在新任院長上任之前目前我們是不是已經開始收集很多第一線的聲音然後也開始研擬相關的方案甚至我們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於原額的部分或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分關於改善這個司法環境的部分"},{"start":11770.587,"end":11792.827,"text":"非常感謝那個委員垂詢這個問題那個確實現在在那個司法院就是各法院所面臨的那個人力非常的那個短缺所以說現在的那個法院法官呢第一線的那個法官那個工作那個過勞的情形很嚴重那那個我們的總緣合法一萬五千呢已經馬上就已經要用盡了"},{"start":11793.487,"end":11812.333,"text":"所以我剛才會說有沒有跟人總進一步討論就是先前的時候有和那個人總去那個接洽齁那但是那個人總他希望我們就是能夠做那個原額評鑑啊那這是一個很大的工程所以說那個司法院先前的時候就委託了那個學術機構幫我們做那個組織診斷那這個組織診斷做出來呢事實上需要調高的這個數額非常高齁所以說我們還要繼續的因為目前是有相關數字要調高很多對不對對"},{"start":11823.337,"end":11840.505,"text":"那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分那跟您分享我相信你應該有在看這個臉書專頁叫做台灣書記官工會他們的臉書專頁其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦那我就不再贅述了那不過我想你剛剛的回應非常的正向最後結論我們就簡單的來說下一張"},{"start":11843.286,"end":11868.216,"text":"就是新任司法院院長到任之前我認為很多過勞的環境透過你們盤點第一線的困境我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言正是這些人員流動所隱含背後的困境包含他們剛分享那個逃難指數看起來很諷刺看起來有點"},{"start":11870.177,"end":11880.531,"text":"黑色笑話的感覺但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央的政府這邊給予協助的好不好我們就一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":11896.676,"end":11902.931,"text":"主席好 麻煩請學特使 教育部請教育部教育部想來 我也不知道 看這個"},{"start":11904.693,"end":11927.16,"text":"下一步是副市長徐副市長副市長因為我們今天在討論說根燒法在學校實施的狀況那我不知道你有沒有掌握到一個情形其實在大學裡面學生根燒學生相對來說是比較好處理因為行為人本身他可以在家裡可以要求在家裡上課應該這樣吧現場教學有一部分是現場教學"},{"start":11928.18,"end":11945.587,"text":"但是現在比較難處理的是學生跟著老師因為學生跟著老師有的時候也造成老師很緊張老師他的上課時間固定而且他的那個研究室大家也都知道位置所以很多老師壓力很大那我知道有一些大學有發生類似的狀況"},{"start":11946.747,"end":11966.087,"text":"他的程序一開始要先去警察局備案嘛申請告誡書嘛然後再來就是如果沒有辦法停止這樣行為的話要申請保護令這中間都需要時間那保護令下來如果行為人還是繼續犯的話呢可能就違法再透過相關的法令來處置"},{"start":11967.168,"end":11983.987,"text":"但問題是這個中間老師就造成很大的心理的壓力一方面還要考慮到學生的授教權老師並不是說像學生跟上學生一樣這麼容易處理那教育部在這邊有什麼提出什麼因應的方案嗎"},{"start":11984.884,"end":12011.154,"text":"是 該委員報告只要那個校園的性別平等案件只要是它是有一方是學生的那都會進入我們的性平教育法的相關規定去處理那至於跟有關跟騷的部分其實我們在112年的時候就有頒布大專校園校園跟蹤騷擾事件的處理執意那在113那個不好意思不要念你們那個辦法我先講這個具體的具體的案例就是說不是案例啦就是具體實際狀況"},{"start":12012.894,"end":12019.843,"text":"因為他的那些程序他需要時間啊老師在這段時間受到壓力就比較難處理你們有提出什麼因應的方案出來嗎"},{"start":12021.758,"end":12043.414,"text":"其實依照我們的規定的話這個部分我們會依照老師如果有這樣的一個狀況他其實都是可以跟我們的學校的學務處做一個同案剛剛都已經把他講了之後的流程都告訴你了對但是並沒有解決我剛剛講的問題這樣子啦因為可能你也沒有掌握狀況啦我這邊有三個具體建議好不好"},{"start":12044.403,"end":12051.199,"text":"你回去研究一下第一個 可不可以給那個老師一個設立一個心理的支持系統"},{"start":12052.869,"end":12074.806,"text":"然後第二個是有沒有換課機制然後第三有沒有可能彈性授課大概這幾個幾個方案你回去研究一下好不好然後對因為因為可能學生對學生比較容易處理啦學生對老師因為兼顧到學生的受教權那老師其實你要叫老師去告學生老師壓力很大啦"},{"start":12076.038,"end":12096.062,"text":"所以這部分可能你們沒有掌握到教學現場的狀況是不是可以回去研究一下可以好不好那是不是研究一個月給我們一個這個討論的研究報告好不好就是針對剛剛我講的狀況好就是針對剛剛委員指教的三點我們再進一步研議OK好謝謝然後接下來請警察局好不好警察 警政署請警政署"},{"start":12106.212,"end":12129.117,"text":"委員好副主長好這個我跟警政署請教一下因為最近我常常看到一些案例都是那個交通違規但是很明顯它可能是科技執法或者是有人檢舉但是很明顯的就是有不可抗力的因素但這樣被罰我們來看一下一個照片比如說像這一張這一張你看這個小轎車它後來被檢舉跨越雙黃線"},{"start":12134.011,"end":12156.71,"text":"但副長應該很清楚他跨越的原因是因為右邊有人圍停所以他才跨越結果他被處罰被處罰後來申訴申訴當然警察局就說這是不可抗力會撤銷但是他的過程當中已經老民了因為這本來在科技執法的時候他就可以判讀就可以剔除我再給你看第二張照片"},{"start":12157.762,"end":12176.096,"text":"右到這邊這也是一樣這也是一張因為新聞報導的圈起來那個小轎車因為本來應該要往右走啦但是他往左走他就被罰了但是右邊我們可以看到很明顯右邊有三角錐而且還有那個怪手在那邊他不可能從怪手上面壓過去嘛所以他往左邊走後來就被罰了那後來也撤銷"},{"start":12177.077,"end":12195.36,"text":"那我是不曉得說即便是結果是撤銷可是過程第一個這些車主收到罰單一定會很不高興一定會很不高興覺得莫名其妙被罰這個每一個人都會很憤怒然後第二他去申訴需要時間 需要精力然後也要承受那種情緒上的壓力"},{"start":12196.101,"end":12214.149,"text":"所以為什麼就是警察單位在判定這個即便是有人檢舉或科技執法一定需要人工判定啊判定的時候為什麼不能事先排除呢一定要把罰單寄出去讓人家來申訴那原因到底是什麼是 這個可能是因為這個科技執法有些"},{"start":12216.16,"end":12238.489,"text":"就是剛開始的那個審判是有委外的有委外的那如果第二級的審判那單位主管副主管這個審判因為也許是案件多他沒辦法那麼詳細美暗的看那麼清楚我覺得你看一下上一張剛秀的這個應該肉眼一看就知道了吧他應該不是故意違規吧他應該是因為右邊有人違停吧不然他要怎麼過"},{"start":12240.2,"end":12255.217,"text":"這很明顯啊 因為這前後也裡面看得到也才三台車而已啊四台車那這個部分我覺得是不是可以整合人員的教育對 是不是可以再加強一下因為這真的有點老民啊所以這個就是透過加強教育的方式來解決嘛好 謝謝"},{"start":12257.939,"end":12270.369,"text":"好 謝謝葉言之委員 接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在好 那我們請壓軸最帥的羅志強委員我沒理他 討論給你們一個檔案拍過你知道嗎"},{"start":12278.136,"end":12289.99,"text":"謝謝主席的誇獎來有請那個司法院王副秘書長還有我們法務部的黃次長請王副秘書長還有我們黃次長委員早安好"},{"start":12291.024,"end":12307.59,"text":"想請教一下我們的副秘書長 最高法院刑事大法庭那今年5月14號做了113年度台上大致第4096號的裁定你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎是 是 知道"},{"start":12308.53,"end":12325.704,"text":"他是說 詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的前段規定詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者"},{"start":12326.945,"end":12355.883,"text":"減輕其刑 那其所稱的犯罪所得是指行為人因犯罪的實際取得的個人所得而言倘行為人並未實際取得個人所得僅需偵查及議次審判中均自白及合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件我不知道副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次的大法庭 刑事大法庭的裁定呢"},{"start":12357.536,"end":12377.259,"text":"跟委員報告就是那個大法庭呢他所做的那個裁定這也是屬於最高法院他們有關於審判職權行使的那個一部分那所以說他們做的這個部分的那個裁定內容呢他們在那個理由中有說明他們所依據的那個法例那這個部分我們司法行政是尊重的"},{"start":12377.659,"end":12405.677,"text":"好 我要跟那個當然你要尊重這個大法庭的裁定可是我也要請教一下次長甚至包括我們警政署的那個機關 要不要上來一下是委員好 這個剛才王委員也有詮詢那我們也表達就是說事實上在最高法院大法庭的延遲辯論的過程中本部所屬最高警察署代表出席的時候已經堅定的表達 因為"},{"start":12406.957,"end":12434.872,"text":"這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條的立法理由很明確的表明他的立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害所以我們並不認同後來大法庭最後這個裁定的見解但是因為這個依照制度這個大法庭的裁定由他解釋上的拘束力所以我們也會盡速的來研議相關的修法讓法條的文字更加的明確讓這個所謂的犯罪所得定義能夠依照立法目的來認定"},{"start":12436.112,"end":12453.103,"text":"謝謝次長 我們現在請副秘書長我要為甚麼請次長跟警政署上來你現在台灣真的詐欺已經成為國恥我們包括說檢查系統 包括我們的警政系統 警察單位"},{"start":12454.468,"end":12470.187,"text":"很努力的在去在前線打詐把詐騙犯把他繩之以法可是當繩之以法交到司法系統去來去判決的時候如果這邊一直把洞打開"},{"start":12471.721,"end":12484.831,"text":"你就會造成前端的很多的我們打詐的前線同仁他們作業上非常大的困擾那我先講這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的為什麼呢我們先講實際現在判決狀況檢刑好像變成是某種贖罪券的這個狀況他沒有辦法達到"},{"start":12492.728,"end":12518.174,"text":"我們剛剛次長講的這個填補受害者的所謂損失的情況之下他還是可以獲得減刑那說真的我不知道當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補他的損失來作為所謂減刑的一個條件結果他不需要受害者的那個損失受到填補一樣可以獲得減刑的時候那就會造成說今天"},{"start":12519.773,"end":12534.905,"text":"另外一種程度是鼓勵詐欺犯罪那我們舉個例子詐欺犯跟車手的刑責現在目前多半是落在一年到一年兩個月之間很多可以獲得緩刑或一顆罰金法務部統計的資料顯示2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬的詐欺犯看起來數字是非常多"},{"start":12546.235,"end":12574.534,"text":"但是有80.7% 8.9萬人他是涉及電信詐欺的案件43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或是拘役那如果是單純提供人頭賬戶被定罪輕判的比例大概是98%那所以因此在這種已經先天上事實上就已經是坦白講在我們這邊詐欺要付出的代價是蠻輕的啦"},{"start":12576.335,"end":12603.768,"text":"那還能夠透過所謂的我們大法庭解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑的這樣一個規定的話那我說真的難怪有人說台灣是詐騙天堂那麼另外剛剛其實市長也已經講到了我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例47條的前段的立法目的是非常明確的它其實有一個核心重心就是要填補被害人的損害"},{"start":12605.95,"end":12612.119,"text":"副部長是不是市長是嘛 沒錯嘛可是今天大法庭的解釋就"},{"start":12613.447,"end":12641.93,"text":"裁定就推翻了這個原則啊他變成是說今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬那如果沒有取得報酬他只要自白就可以獲得減刑那問題來了請問這種情況之下犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎被填補了嗎請問副秘書長如果這兩個條件照我們刑事大法庭的裁定的話有被補償嗎"},{"start":12644.696,"end":12662.138,"text":"從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五 百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊"},{"start":12662.799,"end":12689.005,"text":"是 所以我們不認同這樣子的認定因為我們在這邊所謂的犯罪所得我們是傾向於採取假設是共犯的話是要共同承擔不是只有他個人的部分而且這個部分也相當難以查證所以我們是不同意這樣的見解其實剛剛次長講一個重點很難查證他今天就跟人講我犯罪所得只有兩千那其實你怎麼去釐清他犯罪所得到底多少如果他錢藏得夠好 洗得夠好的話"},{"start":12689.847,"end":12714.947,"text":"所以因此你也看到基層法院也有很多法官有表示高度疑慮他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了容易達成到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去檢他就好不用用這種方式來檢那另外就實際上很多的詐欺共犯他們幾乎都會認罪但真正犯罪所得他常常就低報啊他也不會老實跟你講犯罪所得多少甚至直接跟你講我就是沒拿到錢啊"},{"start":12716.046,"end":12720.743,"text":"看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊我說我沒拿到錢 你要證明我拿到錢啊"},{"start":12722.264,"end":12747.552,"text":"那跟今天立法的目的就是要填補被害人的損害我覺得相去十萬八千里啦所以我也要這樣講說今天這個說真的這個裁定我覺得是有點不食人間煙火啦那最後還有犯罪人你看到的是有時候被詐騙上百萬甚至上千萬那法院只要說今天看到片面他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到犯罪所得非常低的時候"},{"start":12748.663,"end":12757.741,"text":"那你要不要去看看就因此減刑要不要看那些被騙了幾百萬上千萬的受害者你覺得他的心情會是什麼他怎麼看待說今天這樣就可以減刑"},{"start":12758.857,"end":12785.818,"text":"所以因此我要說是說今天這一個其實已經變成我們今天反詐的一個破口反詐的破口那我也希望剛剛次長有提到拜託我們司法院還有我們的法務部能夠好好看怎麼把這破口補起來否則我覺得真的是很對不起今天很多被詐騙的民眾他們真的被詐騙以後受的損害如此龐大甚至造成很大身心的陰影甚至造成家庭的很大的一個"},{"start":12786.753,"end":12816.213,"text":"不合乃至於甚至未來生活上產生很大的困難我自己在選區跑就是遇到很多民眾被詐騙基本上錢都追不回來真的基本上錢都追不回來很難追回來結果還看到這樣子還可以減刑有時候甚至他可能也不期待錢被追回來但也看到說我今天因為我沒拿到錢被減刑說沒拿到錢被減刑我坦白講真是情何以堪啦所以拜託這個漏洞在法律上怎麼去做把它補起來好不好"},{"start":12816.906,"end":12842.456,"text":"好 是 我們會照我們剛剛所說的話會儘速啟動這個修繁的文字發布起來好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員那我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關儘速送交個別委員跟本會"},{"start":12843.837,"end":12869.811,"text":"那委員張雅玲、邱振鈞、林倩琦、徐欣盈所提書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來答覆現在進行我們議程所列的司法院主管的預算的解凍案處理前我們請議事人員一併宣讀報告事項及討論事項的預算解凍案請宣讀"},{"start":12871.073,"end":12897.473,"text":"報告事項第三案及第四案分別為三司法院函為一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第四款第一項決議二預算凍結書面報告請查照案及四減送稅出第四款第一項決議五預算凍結書面報告請查照案討論事項第一案至第八案分別為一司法院函為一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出"},{"start":12899.574,"end":12916.626,"text":"第四款第一項決議一預算凍結書面報告請查照案二檢送稅出第四款第一項決議三預算凍結書面報告請查照案三檢送稅出第四款第一項決議四預算凍結書面報告請查照案四檢送稅出"},{"start":12917.506,"end":12938.44,"text":"第四款第一項新增決議137預算凍結專案報告請查照案5.減送稅出第四款第一項新增決議148預算凍結專案報告請查照案6.減送稅出第四款第一項新增決議175預算凍結專案報告請查照案7.減送稅出第四款第一項新增決議183預算凍結專案報告請查照案8.減送稅出第四款第十項決議1及新"},{"start":12947.546,"end":12951.671,"text":"及新增決議193預算凍結專案報告請查照案宣讀完畢"},{"start":12953.697,"end":12978.891,"text":"好 我們議程所列司法院主管的預算解凍案都已宣讀完畢了現在進行處理那我們依例照議程所列的順序我們先處理報告事項議程報告事項第三跟第四案有關司法院主管114年度預算解凍書面報告案這個預算解凍書面報告案該案都已經列入議程提出書面報告並經宣讀"},{"start":12980.752,"end":12987.86,"text":"我們就做如下的決定 就都准予被查提報院會如果沒有其他意見的話 我們就通過"},{"start":12992.196,"end":13008.989,"text":"另外報告事項我們報告事項處理完畢我們繼續進行討論事項有關司法院主管114年度的預算解凍案部分討論事項第一到第八案 業經報告及詢答完畢並與宣讀 請問各位有異來 翁"},{"start":13016.332,"end":13031.869,"text":"來 我們現在就是討論四項第一到第八案都已經報告跟審討完畢了那並且已經宣讀有 哪一案好來 第七案請翁小玲委員"},{"start":13037.666,"end":13062.856,"text":"第七案主要是針對當時凍結法服基金會的一千萬喔那麼因為我有看了法服的報告那這裡面有些問題我還是想請這個法服之後可能可以再進行檢討的第一個首先我想了解就是法服這裡說你們的本金到現在都還沒有到位嗎一百億所以實際上是有多少錢三十八億到目前為止也只有三十八億"},{"start":13067.725,"end":13093.272,"text":"司法院因為我們大辦原先的本意是希望我們能夠對外募款然後能夠讓這個基金到位但是呢我們司法院還是得靠司法院來部分的捐助但是司法院現在面臨就是說因為我們法府的業務一直擴大然後現在的這個每年要正常的運作"},{"start":13093.992,"end":13120.044,"text":"就一定要達到十幾億那麼十幾億呢就算一百億的基金交給我們說讓我們自己去生知喜然後用這些錢產生的利息啦或者收益呢去運作還是沒辦法做到現在知喜那麼低那我們現在石華營只能夠選擇說那我先讓你們正常運作那基金呢如果說我要給你們補足的話那會佔我們政府的預算"},{"start":13123.428,"end":13123.654,"text":"過於龐大"},{"start":13124.707,"end":13153.074,"text":"那所以這個部分他只能擇其一的說先讓我們正常運作那基金呢這個部分還是司法院呢他之前的這個捐助之下我們現在目前只達到38億多但是有很多部分是我們努力要去募款但是事實上法輔要募款也有很多的限制譬如說法輔他是處理訴訟的為人民服務的但是你如果像企業大企業我們平時說"},{"start":13153.914,"end":13174.469,"text":"今天去跟一些台積電 或者是鴻海 我們去要求募款那我們要輔助的對象如果要是都是勞工階級那這些勞工就是很多的弱勢生活弱勢 經濟弱勢那到時候 這個公司有事情的時候那變成他是我們主要的"},{"start":13175.526,"end":13188.846,"text":"捐助人金主那我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個一個這樣的處理訴訟的問題所以我家其實在這個募款方面我們也沒有專人募款因為募款還是一個"},{"start":13190.083,"end":13214.476,"text":"比較專業的那我們在職的所有的工作人員你說他四處去募款本身也是很困難那只能說是靠著民間我們的宣導各個慈善團體政府機關陸陸續續的給我們捐助一些那有一些小額募款所以他的募款我們已經盡可能每個年都達標了但是還是沒有辦法有大量的這個"},{"start":13215.696,"end":13236.748,"text":"如果委員能夠謝謝你關心到這個問題那也希望說我們的基金能夠到位但是真的我們的募款能力是有所不足的我們現在雖然很努力的也只能每年持續的增長但是還是沒有辦法做到把這個拉到100億"},{"start":13239.175,"end":13266.863,"text":"好 謝謝董事長的說明因為我本期也是有感受到如果說法服在根本本期沒有到位的情況之下然後你們每年有這麼多的支出當然主要就還是靠司法院的捐助那麼我希望司法院也能夠幫法服一個忙就是看看對外企業或是有沒有什麼樣團體可以去募到比較充裕的款不然到現在連一半都沒有"},{"start":13268.124,"end":13294.125,"text":"對 這個司法院如果說還有保護部未來都能夠幫忙的話對外企業能夠募到足夠的款那至少可以減少就是國家公帑的這個支出那當然另外一個部分就是在現在本金沒有到位之前然後法服的每年的經費不斷的成長我認為也應該要去檢討有關於法服的法規啦就是有一些部分是不是不需要真的"},{"start":13294.945,"end":13317.95,"text":"給予法律輔助的他本身他就有經濟能力那麼這個部分我覺得其實可以提出來做檢討那甚至在整個刑事辯護人訴訟中心因為你們現在還要再成立一個專職律師刑事辯護中心那麼這個在目前經費不足的情況之下有沒有需要這麼急的去成立"},{"start":13318.57,"end":13338.421,"text":"我希望董事長執行長這邊都可以再去思考這個問題因為你們現在已經也有公職的法輔本身有律師然後又公設辯護人其實對於這個相關的行事案件的法律輔助的部分我看起來並不是說那麼"},{"start":13340.055,"end":13355.838,"text":"那麼有 並不是有不足的地方可能有多種的 我想跟委員再解釋一下因為現在這個對於有資歷的刑事被告尤其是要強制辯護的重罪人"},{"start":13356.338,"end":13369.154,"text":"我們法府本來是不應該接收遮封面的對象的但是現在就是我們法院的公設辯護人他本來原則上我們就是應該優先給法院的公設辯護人還有義務辯護律師去辯護我們也希望這樣但是法院現在公設辯護人呢已經"},{"start":13376.242,"end":13386.43,"text":"逐漸消失,現在都用約聘的律師他們能夠承受的案件量非常有限義務辯護律師也是編列在各法院的經會裡面也非常少每年能夠通過這個義辯的經會"},{"start":13395.456,"end":13414.288,"text":"大概只能夠接幾個案子,錢就用完了這個部分他們是不得不借重法乎我們現在也是說盡可能司法院也有函令給各法院說希望每個法院盡可能把這些案子派公辯或異辯"},{"start":13417.165,"end":13445.101,"text":"現實的情形就是公辯吃不下這些案子因為尤其是有些重案子是國民法官的那國民法官審的這些案子耗費非常多的經歷跟時間那這個公辯一個區區一個法院都一個公辯兩個公辯做不了那你說其他給異辯的律師那異辯的律師真的很少就是幾位能夠做而已所以我也希望說有一天法庫不要去辦"},{"start":13447.441,"end":13471.387,"text":"這個強制辯護有資歷的被告但是現在因為國民法官的案子需要大律師民間的律師非常視如未土就不想接涉這方面的個案那也只有靠著法庫的一些專職律師才有辦法去接因為他花在法庭上的時間太多了一般的律師根本不願意接受的"},{"start":13472.225,"end":13490.604,"text":"了解了好謝謝那我們之後可能還要再通盤介紹相關的法治謝謝王小林委員其他委員在場委員有沒有其他的意見如果沒有的話我們討論事項第一到第八案我們就做以下的決議都准予動之提報院會"},{"start":13493.038,"end":13505.007,"text":"來 上午的會議我們就進行到此了下午我們一點開會繼續進行下午的議程處理國安會預算的解凍案 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那議事錄確定那我們現在介紹在場委員 陳永康委員林楚瑩委員好 那我們介紹列席官員部長 吳立雄先生副參謀總長 執行官 黃志偉 上將常務市長 楊基榮 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第七案陸軍司令部第四幕向下醫務費預算凍結兩百萬元案 第八案陸軍司令部第五幕向下國軍重要防護營區智慧型警監系統建設案第二階段"},{"start":2178.67,"end":2196.679,"text":"預算凍結五百萬元案 第九案入軍司令部 第五目向下 國軍重要防護營區智慧型警監系統監製案 第二階段預算凍結五百萬元案 第十案入軍司令部 第五目向下 高效能反專甲飛彈預算凍結兩百萬元案第十一案入軍司令部 第五目向下 高效能反專甲飛彈預算凍結五百萬元案"},{"start":2198.941,"end":2207.32,"text":"第十二案 陸軍司令部 第五目向下 搬用機槍預算凍結100萬元案第十三案 陸軍司令部 第五目向下 搬用機槍預算凍結100萬元案"},{"start":2210.1,"end":2229.933,"text":"第十四案陸軍司令部第五幕向下戰術型進程無人飛行載具二階段預算凍結五百萬元案第十五案陸軍司令部第五幕向下新型步槍預算凍結一百萬元案第十六案陸軍司令部第八幕向下裝訓部坑子口訓練場整建工程案預算凍結五百萬元案第十七案"},{"start":2230.593,"end":2254.765,"text":"海軍司令部第五目向下艦載型艦增無人機預算凍結300萬元案第十八案海軍司令部第五目向下新型布拉克EV方陣快報預算凍結300萬元案第十九案海軍司令部第五目向下新式港型拖船購置預算凍結36萬3000元案第20案海軍司令部第八目"},{"start":2256.343,"end":2270.851,"text":"第8目向下 左營二港口擴建工程預算凍結200萬元案第21案 空軍司令部第4目向下 軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修預算凍結1000萬元案第22案 空軍司令部第4目向下 軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修預算凍結1000萬元案第23案 空軍司令部第5目向下 F16VVB70型"},{"start":2282.85,"end":2309.368,"text":"行击敌我辨识器寻答密码机预算冻结10%案第24案 自动电军指挥部第4幕向下设施及机械设备养护费预算冻结500万元案第25案 政治作战局第1幕向下 业务费预算冻结200万元案第26案 政治作战局第1幕向下 尾班费预算冻结50万元案第27案 政治作战局第1幕向下一班事务费预算冻结50万元案"},{"start":2309.878,"end":2316.902,"text":"第28案軍備局第1目軍事行政預算凍結50萬元案第29案軍備局第8目向下軍品生產修護建設及其他設備預算凍結100萬元案第30案軍醫局第1目向下委搬費預算凍結100萬元案第31案軍醫局第4目向下房屋建築養護費預算凍結500萬元案第32案政治作戰局第1目向下業務費預算凍結50萬元案第33案"},{"start":2338.753,"end":2347.155,"text":"空軍司令部資訊服務費預算凍結600萬元案第34案本部第二幕向下一般事務費預算凍結30萬元案第35案本部第二幕向下獎補助費預算凍結100萬元案第36案本部第二幕向下獎補助費預算凍結100萬元案第37案本部第二幕向下獎補助費對國內團體支捐助預算凍結100萬元案"},{"start":2363.038,"end":2382.183,"text":"第38案 陸軍司令部 第一幕向下 義務費預算凍結300萬元案第39案 陸軍司令部 第一幕向下 物品預算凍結20萬元案第40案 陸軍司令部 第一幕向下 一般事務費預算凍結50萬元案第41案 陸軍司令部 第四幕向下 軍事裝備之設施預算凍結300萬元案第42案 陸軍司令部 第四幕向下 軍事裝備設施養護費預算凍結100萬元案第43案"},{"start":2392.781,"end":2418.057,"text":"陸軍司令部第五目向下國軍重要防護營區智慧型緊接系統建置案第二階段預算凍結五百萬元案第四十四案陸軍司令部第五目向下戰術型進程無人飛行載具二階段預算凍結五百萬元案第四十五案陸軍司令部第五目向下戰術型進程無人飛行載具二階段預算凍結五百萬元案第四十六案陸軍司令部第五目向下"},{"start":2419.277,"end":2442.71,"text":"戰術型進程五無人飛行載具二階段預算凍結五百萬元案第四十七案陸軍司令部第八目向下載人公務車輛籌補預算凍結六百五十萬元案第四十八案海軍司令部第五目向下通訊費預算凍結五十萬元案第四十九案海軍司令部第四目向下房屋建築養物費預算凍結五百萬元案"},{"start":2443.61,"end":2459.996,"text":"第五十案 海軍司令部第四幕向下軍事裝備設施養護費預算凍結300萬元案第五十一案 空軍司令部第五幕向下新式高級教訓機預算凍結1000萬元案第五十二案 空軍司令部第五幕向下I2性能體升級採購I3預算凍結5000萬元案第五十三案 空軍司令部第五幕向下F16AV型"},{"start":2469.04,"end":2486.583,"text":"戰機性能提升預算凍結兩百萬元案第五十四案先兵指揮部第五幕向下國軍新型手槍第二階段預算凍結十萬元案第五十五案先兵指揮部第五幕向下新型步槍預算凍結一百萬元案第五十六案政治作戰局第一幕向下一班術費預算凍結一百萬元案第五十七案"},{"start":2487.203,"end":2499.509,"text":"主計局第一幕向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案第58案全民防衛動員署第一幕向下人事行政預算凍結50萬元案第59案全民防衛動員署第一幕向下"},{"start":2500.851,"end":2507.634,"text":"人事行政預算凍結50萬元案第60案全民防衛動員署第三幕向下資訊軟硬體設備費預算凍結200萬元案第61案全民防衛動員署第三幕向下動員整備預算凍結200萬元案第62案全民防衛動員署第三幕向下動員整備預算凍結100萬元案第63案國防大學第三幕向下一般事務費預算凍結500萬元案第64案車門本部第一幕向下業務費預算凍結50萬元案"},{"start":2528.562,"end":2536.145,"text":"第65案 參謀本部第一目向下人事行政預算凍結50萬元案第66案 參謀本部第一目向下一般事務費預算凍結50萬元案第67案 參謀本部第三目向下一般事務費預算凍結50萬元案第68案 參謀本部第四目向下一般事務費預算凍結100萬元案"},{"start":2546.108,"end":2554.916,"text":"第69案 參謀本部第4目向下通訊電子與資訊管理預算凍結1000萬元案第70案 參謀本部第4目向下軍事裝備設施養物費預算凍結100萬元案第71案 軍事情報局第4目向下資訊服務費預算凍結200萬元案 討論事項處理院會交付"},{"start":2567.045,"end":2592.803,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算凍結案依參謀本部第四幕向下軍事單位裝備臨附建構置及保修預算凍結10%專案報告案二軍備局第七幕第一節向下國軍營設及設施改建基金預算凍結30%專案報告案三國防部主管預算凍結案等47案想付表第三案至第49案第三案"},{"start":2594.209,"end":2615.76,"text":"本部業務費預算凍結30%案第四案陸軍司令部第五幕向下仁溪市短程防空飛彈預算凍結1000萬元案第五案本部第一幕向下資訊軟硬體設備費預算凍結20%案第六案陸軍司令部第五幕向下業務費預算凍結1000萬元案第七案陸軍司令部第五幕向下仁溪市短程防空飛彈預算凍結5000萬元案"},{"start":2618.038,"end":2637.715,"text":"第八案 陸軍司令部 第五幕向下國軍重要防護營區智慧型警監系統建設案 第二階段預算凍結 四千萬元案第九案 陸軍司令部 第五幕向下國軍重要防護營區智慧型警監系統建設案 第二階段預算凍結 四千萬元案第十案 陸軍司令部 第五幕向下"},{"start":2638.235,"end":2664.82,"text":"新型战车预算冻结五千万元案第十一案陆军司令部第五幕向下远程精准火力打击系统预算冻结八千万元案第十二案海军司令部第五幕向下创龙级潜舰战斗系统提升案预算冻结五千万元案第十三案海军司令部第五幕向下新一代轻型巡防舰第二阶段原型舰筹建预算冻结一千亿一亿元案"},{"start":2665.64,"end":2687.568,"text":"第十四案 海軍司令部 第五幕向下 康電極艦戰鬥系統性能提升預算凍結7000萬元案第十五案 海軍司令部 第五幕向下 魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統預算凍結2000萬元案第十六案 海軍司令部 第五幕向下 快速布雷艇後續停預算凍結1億元案第十七案 海軍司令部 第五幕"},{"start":2688.648,"end":2708.137,"text":"監偵型無人機預算凍結五千萬元案第十八案海軍司令部第五幕向下海洋監偵能量整體提升案預算凍結一億元案第十九案海軍司令部第八幕向下魚叉飛彈防岸海岸防衛系統預算凍結五千萬元案第二十案空軍司令部第四幕向下車輛及辦公器具養護費預算凍結六千萬元案"},{"start":2713.663,"end":2733.534,"text":"第21案 空軍司令部第5目向下 TPSEPS-117 美達性能提升案預算凍結2000萬元案第22案 空軍司令部第8目向下台東基地設施興建工程預算凍結1億元案第23案 空軍司令部第8目向下一般設施整建工程中"},{"start":2734.114,"end":2744.04,"text":"跑滑道戰備工程預算凍結1億元案第24案 空軍司令部第8目向下載人公務車輛籌補預算凍結10%案第25案 憲兵指揮部第2目向下業務費預算凍結12萬元案第26案 軍醫局國軍前進外科小組裝備整備預算凍結1000萬元案第27案 軍醫局國軍醫院"},{"start":2759.311,"end":2766.033,"text":"國軍醫院軍政醫學網路設備系統提升案預算凍結1000萬元案第28案國防大學第4幕向下設施及機械設備養護費預算凍結200萬元案第29案軍醫局第8幕向下國軍前進外科小組裝備整備預算凍結1000萬元案第30案陸軍司令部第4幕向下軍事裝備及設施預算凍結500萬元案第31案"},{"start":2785.477,"end":2799.345,"text":"陸軍司令部第八目向下軍事裝備及設施預算凍結一千萬元案第三十二案陸軍司令部第四目向下物品預算凍結一千萬元案第三十三案陸軍司令部第五目向下仁西市短程防空飛彈預算凍結一億三千萬元案第三十四案"},{"start":2802.667,"end":2830.978,"text":"陸軍司令部第五目向下高效能仿專甲飛彈預算凍結六千萬元案第三十五案陸軍司令部第六目向下一般數費預算凍結五百萬元案第三十六案陸軍司令部第八目向下南湖彈庫興建工程預算凍結五百萬元案第三十七案空軍司令部第五目向下I2性能提升及採購I3預算凍結四億五千萬元案第三十八案空軍司令部第五目向下"},{"start":2832.078,"end":2859.732,"text":"國軍重量防務營區智慧型警戒系統建置案第二階段預算凍結10%案第39案空軍司令部第8幕向下充實航空技術學院技職基礎及專業精進教育設備師預算凍結10%案第40案憲兵指揮部向下第5幕向下遙控無人機防禦系統預算凍結1000萬元案第41案直通電軍指揮部第5幕向下遙控無人機"},{"start":2861.093,"end":2868.498,"text":"防禦系統預算凍結10%案第42案支通電軍指揮部第5幕向下兼增型無人機預算凍結1000萬元案第43案支通電軍指揮部第5幕向下第三代陸區系統預算凍結1億元案第44案支通電軍指揮部第5幕向下環島第二路由及支通系統微波建設案預算凍結1000萬元案第45案全民防衛動員署第5幕向下微型無人機預算凍結1000萬元案第46案"},{"start":2890.653,"end":2911.179,"text":"參謀本部第四目向下資訊服務費預算凍結3800萬元案第四十七案參謀本部第四目向下軍事裝備設施養物費預算凍結10%案第四十八案軍事情報局第一目向下業務費預算凍結10%案第四十九案軍事情報局第四目向下後勤補給資源預算凍結50萬元案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2914.124,"end":2932.163,"text":"好 那報告事項二 這個處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議那國防部主管的預算凍結案是提出書面報告後 使得動之 這樣總共71案 報告事項的那現在書面報告已經送交本會 請問各位委員對於預算解凍有無異議"},{"start":2932.967,"end":2953.67,"text":"沒有那沒有異議的話呢均同意動之提報院會那接下來呢我們會有這個專案報告兩案然後還有另外47案的是書面報告要同意時的動之的討論事項那我們現在先請國防部就主管預算解凍案包含專案報告兩案進行報告請國防部顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2964.042,"end":2971.526,"text":"主席,各位委員先進,今日大院安排節中議程,本部在此表達誠摯謝意,感謝"},{"start":2974.807,"end":2996.739,"text":"各位委員長期關心國防事務並給予各項指導本次辦理解凍期一百二十案,其中討論四項四十九案專案報告兩案,書面報告四十七案,新台幣八百四十五億兩千九百三十三萬五千元針對委員所關切個案執行現況檢討與進行作為等項,均依決議辦理"},{"start":3002.27,"end":3019.779,"text":"有關業務費凍結30%需向大約報告經統一後凍資議案考量四項預算主要運用在維持主戰裝備妥善、各式訓練彈藥與機艦油料採購、重要武器裝備籌貨及部隊基本運作維持等需求預算凍結對各項戰備整備工作影響甚為重大"},{"start":3031.184,"end":3036.909,"text":"近三年111年至113年本部業務會執行率均達95%以上預算執行狀況良好114年度各項施政計畫均於預定進度編配預算上半年業務會分配數佔全年36%截至上週五執行率22%後續將配合軍購案結會"},{"start":3060.123,"end":3068.832,"text":"需求及購安交貨啟程等,何時辦理經費之用?預判6月中旬執行率可達30%"},{"start":3071.38,"end":3097.857,"text":"因應中國持續加大對我軍事脅迫及灰色地帶洗澡國航預算獲得為各界關注焦點預算解凍有助於國航施政整體規劃及戰備任務持續推動亦可展現自我防衛的決心為各項重要計畫執行請各位委員鼎力支持預算解凍Base各項施政及建軍規劃案"},{"start":3100.212,"end":3113.666,"text":"計劃啟程推動持續由軍備局局長林文祥中將針對新一代抗彈板發展案與國軍軍事工程執行情形及撤軍作為等兩案實施專案報告,謝謝"},{"start":3125.697,"end":3139.911,"text":"主席 各位委員 先進 大家好軍備局局長報告新一代抗彈板發展案專案報告依前言軍備局第205場於民國104年依軍種作戰需求研發三級抗彈板自106年起開始生產成品軍機"},{"start":3142.081,"end":3170.003,"text":"檢測合格後交軍使用並於112年7月19日甲規格建設中心大無冰測試場召開媒體邀航說明會現場由媒體隨機抽樣三級抗彈板公開測試結果均符合規範另因應共軍5.8公里鋼性彈威脅於112年9月參照美軍ISAPI檢驗規範具以開發新一代抗彈板二、研發歷程遵112年大院第十屆第七期外交及國防委員會的指導"},{"start":3170.583,"end":3182.772,"text":"因應中共武器敵情威脅以共軍5.8公里鋼心彈動能數據訂定新一代抗彈板測試的標準以維護國軍官兵戰場生命安全"},{"start":3184.667,"end":3210.968,"text":"二112年9月27日邀集陸軍海空軍司令部等單位以敵情威脅作戰環境官兵戰鬥力負荷及機動性等需求擬定新一代抗彈板規格軍備局第205場以現有成熟的抗彈纖維部壓制的技術為基礎收整原料商情整合國內學術單位研發能量及技術建立新一代抗彈板所需的"},{"start":3212.009,"end":3235.213,"text":"抗彈纖維部結合陶瓷片的複合材料及防水聚尿噴塗等技術112年10月以高雄藝術大學材料科學與工程研究所成立陶瓷抗彈板分析檢測及規範建立研究團隊獲得國內自主產製之陶瓷片厚度重量及硬度等性能參據確認所需陶瓷片材質規格參考美軍聚尿噴塗"},{"start":3238.482,"end":3247.512,"text":"材料的規範112年11月與桃園農華科技大學機械工程研究所成立聚尿塗層分析檢測及規範建立研究團隊開發聚尿"},{"start":3251.062,"end":3270.315,"text":"塗料規格及噴土的技術去強化新一代抗氮板的硬度防水及耐磨等特性以提升防護及存管效能為驗證研發成果112年12月19日由前軍備副部長徐上將率各軍總副軍備局第205場試導實彈測試以5.56公里鋼芯彈提升出速模擬共均5.8公里鋼芯彈射擊動能測試結果符合標準全案於12月28日通過測評"},{"start":3281.042,"end":3303.19,"text":"三 量產規劃一 關鍵陶瓷片籌購秉持國防自主原則兼顧國內軍工產業發展並引進國外優質商園採多元管道籌補全案禁用大陸地區原物料杜絕紅色供應鏈並先期完成國內產業界產能評估以最有利標方式拒以辦理陶瓷片16萬組的採購案"},{"start":3305.651,"end":3312.933,"text":"納編專家學者共同評選最適廠商承攬開標結果是由國內廠商全販60%及國外廠商全販40%共同產製供應與於114年1月15日完成簽約履約中為落實國防自主及促進國防產業發展新一代抗彈板所需的關鍵"},{"start":3325.017,"end":3340.367,"text":"料件陶瓷片自113年起納入國防部軍品認識制品項並於113年6月19日完成世商軍品公開展示後續規劃以選擇性招標方式辦理物料儲補作業以加強國內國防產業供應鏈韌性才能規劃"},{"start":3343.729,"end":3350.114,"text":"為滿足軍種戰備任務需求軍備局第205場已完成生產機具及廠房佈線規劃配合滔市變或料期程執行產製作業連產能6萬組本部將持續管制第205場產製進度並滿足國軍官兵戰備任務需求四"},{"start":3362.932,"end":3376.158,"text":"量產交軍建設作為軍備局規格接熱中心大無冰測試場於114年2月8日以依美軍ISAP規範完成TUF認證新一代抗彈板完成產作後遵113年大院第11屆第二期"},{"start":3379.741,"end":3399.118,"text":"拜交及國防委員會指導軍由軍備局規格建設中心大和兵測試場依美軍ISAPI測試程序實施建設合口後交軍使用以維護官兵國軍官兵生命安全補給與軍備局生產製造中心第205場秉持國防自主及提升國軍部隊官兵裝備防護力"},{"start":3400.259,"end":3421.095,"text":"整合國內學術單位研發能量及國內民間軍工廠商的技術建立新一代抗彈板國內自主生產能力將持續收整先進國家發展趨勢及精進抗彈板防護效能懇請大院繼續支持各項國防政策及施政作為同意凍結預算凍資必利任務推動順遂報告完畢敬請指導接續報告"},{"start":3429.072,"end":3432.904,"text":"國軍軍事工程執行情形及設定作為中央報告一前言"},{"start":3434.367,"end":3458.126,"text":"為提升國軍軍事工程執行效能本部享使檢視及強化工程計劃編審局預算編類作業程序作業流程並於工程契約修訂罰則性的罰則約束及規範產商另藉由強化工程專責單位職者及專業職能訓練起使各軍事工程如期如質如預算完工"},{"start":3458.846,"end":3484.324,"text":"二 國軍軍事工程執行情形為提升官兵生活品質營造優質服務環境依蔡前總統106年指導推動新安裝案及興建植物宿舍利應應新式武器裝備接裝相關庫儲與訓練場地需求積極建案辦理訓場整建及裝備庫儲等相關工程各項軍事工程執行情形紛紓如火依新安裝案"},{"start":3485.405,"end":3507.303,"text":"自106年運用銀改基金1145億餘元執行103案銀色整建工程 其113年底已完工83案餘20案依契約管制114至118年完工令尊代總統持續照顧官兵政策 以匡列102億餘元執行嶄新專案13案其成115至120年 持續提升官兵住用品質二"},{"start":3514.108,"end":3520.615,"text":"新建植物宿舍自106年運用引改基金144億餘元執行11案1590戶去113年底以完工商案380戶餘8案1210戶依契約管制114至"},{"start":3532.128,"end":3550.696,"text":"一十七年完工令尊賴總統持續照顧官兵眷屬政策以匡列八十七億元在執行興建九案六百八十戶其成一百一十五至一百二十年至一百二十年國軍植物宿舍的總數可達一百零三處九千七百七十二戶三"},{"start":3551.476,"end":3556.379,"text":"陣地、訓場、庫儲及裝備附屬工程因應新式裝備接裝及戰備訓練的需求自104年起運用公務預算及特別預算1336億元執行130案軍事工程如彈藥庫、車庫、戰甲車掩體、機堡、機場跑滑道等以完工37案與93案工程進度及規劃設計作業均正常"},{"start":3576.332,"end":3593.444,"text":"後續依新式武器裝備獲得其層建案執行相關工程以提升整體戰力四 專案工程依行政院資安政策推動資安園區興建工程配合地方發展辦理雲區簽建如砲校簽建205場搬遷籌建國家軍事博物館等即編列476億元執行33案以完工14案與19案工程進度及規劃設計作業均正常持續依計劃其層"},{"start":3606.013,"end":3623.06,"text":"都管執行三工程務施樣態檢討針對近期委員關切國軍軍事工程執行造生計劃延宕預算增加非法外籍移工旅約爭議及廠商失闖委員辦公室等請說明如下一工程延宕及最佳預算"},{"start":3624.264,"end":3647.244,"text":"本部工程經奉准核納五聯兵力整建計劃相關的經費編列基於行政院組織總署共同性費用編列基準及工程會公共工程計劃以經費審議作業要點辦理為部分建案單位位於計劃執行前一年可行性評估階段即使依最新的營建物價指數及市場行情合理"},{"start":3648.044,"end":3673.847,"text":"調修經費、自計劃預算不符市場行情產生流標或減向減量方式招標造成工程延宕及追加預算二、廠商非法引用外籍移工為解決國內營造市場缺工問題依行政院工程會及勞動部110年規定工程企業金額一億元以上或同一個廠商承攬兩件五千億元以上的工程可申請合法外籍移工"},{"start":3674.848,"end":3700.917,"text":"為部分廠商違法 挺而走險施制非法引用外籍移工衍生營區安全疑慮三、履約爭議處理工程執行期間因專管、建造及施工廠商對契約、履約及設計內容存有爭議且無解決共識自衍生履約爭議工程主辦機關亦未及時裁決造成工程延宕及廠商之間"},{"start":3701.897,"end":3719.003,"text":"互告等情令未能察覺城南廠商財務問題導致工程進度大幅落後所以契約解約及提告球場並刊登不良廠商公告為以造成廠商之間禮約爭議並訴諸媒體連帶軍意受損是廠商私廠委員辦公室立法委員均以問證所需所需索取工程相關資料"},{"start":3724.963,"end":3736.302,"text":"本部經依規定天空前空長官核定後由專人親送委員辦公室為營造廠商私自前往委員辦公室拜會說明以造成委員人身安全顧慮是 設定作為"},{"start":3738.659,"end":3755.559,"text":"為精進上述工程缺失勿施本部檢討策進作為如下一本部已策頒國防部軍事工程策進作為及作業指引自115年起由軍備局公營中心專責執行兩億元以上之一般軍事工程您涉及軍種專業特性及"},{"start":3758.642,"end":3782.135,"text":"10層急迫之工程由各軍種辦理並納編各司令部及指揮部工程專責單位成立專案編組執行建案文件編審預算編類及工程督導執行2.依國軍軍事投資建案作為規定於測定軍事工程需求文件及可行性評估報告等兩階段時機管制各建案單位確實依最新營建"},{"start":3782.975,"end":3795.944,"text":"物價指數及市場行情調修合理經費編列使工程預算一次到位必使工程招標作業順遂三為評選優質廠商工程均採最有利標辦理另於評選階段將參標廠商禮約時機及職安績效納入評分要項另修正參標廠商行公司負責人執行內岸工程禮約優良及輸者試機紀錄由工作小組提供評選委員會納入評分參考"},{"start":3814.215,"end":3840.464,"text":"4.為強化技術服務及施工廠商約束力本部已修頒工程及技術服務契約範本除就禁止使用陸自機具及產品技術廠商輸折等徵定懲罰性的罰則另針對禁止非法引用外籍移工依工程契約金額及具訂定10至30萬不等罰款如廠商累犯再加乘1.5倍累進計法"},{"start":3842.105,"end":3846.908,"text":"並納入禮約書者事蹟記錄以杜絕違法情勢再生五 為精進禮約爭議處理效率工程禮約爭議直接報請行政院工程會採購申訴審議委員會辦理調解"},{"start":3857.999,"end":3885.823,"text":"廠商若乃對調解結果不符再循仲裁及民事訴訟程序辦理六為提升各單位工程專業職能運用陸軍工兵訓練中心工程正規班及工程管理專業班等班隊年度兼供食物及施工品勤查核講習辦理新進工程人員教育訓練及在職人員互訓以精進工程實務管理能力七針對廠商失智"},{"start":3887.168,"end":3902.507,"text":"进闯委员办公室办会说明之行为如今委员反应不妥本部将该厂商之违私行为纳入履约书者试剂记录于办理工程最有利标评选阶段由工程小组提供评选委员评文参考"},{"start":3903.208,"end":3927.245,"text":"五 給予為達成軍事工程資源戰備任務之目標本部將落實工程專責單位組織管理能力強化工程專業職能訓練審慎評選優質廠商等作為有效提升工程執行效能建請大院持續給予指導與支持同時同意凍結預算動資必利國軍軍事工程推動順遂報告完畢 敬請指導"},{"start":3934.943,"end":3950.996,"text":"好那我們現在開始詢答本會委員4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半這個發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案請於10點半以前提出11點左右來處理那我們現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長有請顧部長"},{"start":3972.832,"end":3988.041,"text":"最近中國的社群有流傳一段疑似以空拍機、遠程鏡頭或衛星圖圖資合成的影片而且還很鉅細靡遺的揭露了華聯空軍基地內部的部署包含了中隊的配置"},{"start":3988.861,"end":4011.076,"text":"還有加固機堡的尺寸、緊急升空戰機的機位等等那甚至還標示了士官兵的影射跟各單位機堡的數量那引發了嚴重的國安疑慮想請教部長因為還有人提到就是說這可能是用無人機地空拍攝的那到底這個影片的真實性如何?"},{"start":4012.684,"end":4039.248,"text":"今天我們研析結果這應該是以不同時期的一個衛星的這個影像的拍攝然後以3D合成的方式然後用軟體來後製的所以完全沒有說它真的就是中共它就是用這一個無人機去做實地的拍攝沒有這件事情我們判斷的結果不是"},{"start":4039.767,"end":4063.854,"text":"所以這個中共它是不是又是另外一種認知作戰,就是說台灣的這個軍方說實在的是非常的鬆散,連到這個基地裡面去拍攝,然後是不是要製造這樣子的這個假象,連去拍攝都無法察覺,它是要製造這種認知作戰的錯誤的這個做法嗎?是,我們認為有相當的可能是在從事一種認知作戰,"},{"start":4065.11,"end":4084.406,"text":"那如果是說真的有發生這件事情的話,其實我們國軍用這個目視察覺是有辦法的是不是?我想我們對於這個無人機的這個部分,我們現在已經在陸續在不同的這個空軍基地都在歸那個"},{"start":4085.804,"end":4111.606,"text":"設置這個反制無人機到目前為止還沒有設置完成嗎我所知道就是說如果是用目視的話我們有辦法嗎不會就是說真的如果哪天真的有這個敵方的無人機就是到了這個基地做拍攝如果是說我們這個反制無人機還沒有建置的話這有辦法用目視察覺嗎我想空軍做個說明一下"},{"start":4115.324,"end":4124.739,"text":"確實用目視來檢查用目視來找這個無人機尤其現在都是小型無人機非常困難非常困難就算是到基地去的話"},{"start":4126.703,"end":4148.479,"text":"拍攝我們如果用目視是非常困難的是不是如果它高度高一點的話再加上那些你用眼睛去看它背景非常複雜的情況下這個我們以前在基地在演練的時候都實際的去測試過你用目視去看非常困難那有沒有其他的察覺方式如果沒有反制無人機的話"},{"start":4149.6,"end":4170.619,"text":"我們現在已經在111年開始建置那這個用主動式跟被動式的這個防禦系統它是可以接收到你遙控的這個頻率也可以主動用雷達波的方式去主動搜索那大概在5公里範圍內這個我們已經有部分的基地建置完成效果都非常的好"},{"start":4170.839,"end":4179.314,"text":"所以說像中國它現在發布的這個影片其實以我們目前的防疫系統防衛系統的話是不可能發生的是不是"},{"start":4181.418,"end":4204.766,"text":"如果建制完成的話這個目前看的情況是一定會被發現所以連花蓮基地其實我們也有一些防疫系統的建制已經有了所以這事情根本就不會發生就全部其實都是一個合成的一片我們的系統目前在陸續的建制中那建制完成的基地目前運作的情況都非常的良好"},{"start":4205.365,"end":4211.949,"text":"OK 那剛剛部長有提到所謂的這個反制無人機那針對這個三軍重要的軍事基地的無人機的這個反制方案目前主要有兩個專案在執行一個是由這個空軍統籌的這個建案就是跨軍種來做部署 那中原院來做研發那另外 這個叫做遙控無人機防疫系統案嘛"},{"start":4230.12,"end":4245.873,"text":"那另外還有一個呢就是由陸軍單獨建案採購的這個總共26套的無人機反制系統案那這兩個專案目前進度如何之前好像有一些延宕喔那目前呢年底 據說年底就要建制完成那現在呢請問進度"},{"start":4247.774,"end":4272.37,"text":"那個應該是區分一個是陸軍跟空軍陸軍的部分先請陸軍回答陸軍的部分主要是以外島地區的為主那目前整個進度是正常那整個的這個產製協議書我們也在4月份核定第一梯的13套我們會在今年10月上旬交裝經過驗收合格之後就可以部署"},{"start":4272.89,"end":4282.037,"text":"那另外第二梯的部分是管制在115年交裝目前整個執行進度正常那我們也會落實相關的履約房廠的作為"},{"start":4283.177,"end":4299.915,"text":"所以這一切進度其實都有按照正常的步驟在走所以大部分的話其實在年底就會建制完成10月是第一批然後還有第二批的另外13套在明年到明年去了115年"},{"start":4303.218,"end":4311.18,"text":"對 OK說實在的面對這個中共的這個情收我在想說不單單會對花蓮其他的地方可能也可能會發生類似這種狀況所以我想說反制無人機的這個建制真的是非常的這個重要那再來還有一點就是說像這個我們還有一個軍事營區安全維護條例在去年九月份的時候就公告了而且有七項的這個執法呢"},{"start":4332.465,"end":4344.851,"text":"預定呢今年的七月就上路那當然在預告期的時候我們會做一些意見的這個會診那目前的進度如何這部分我們本期也想了解一下我們還是會預計在七月以後正式實行"},{"start":4346.509,"end":4370.717,"text":"7月1號正式會施行,那我們這個意見的彙整都已經完全,已經完成了嗎?有這些調整是不是?我們有相關大概十幾個執法嘛七個執法吧,我們有七個執法對不對?法律事務司,有多少?七個執法嘛來,要不要說明一下"},{"start":4376.313,"end":4402.965,"text":"目前這些執法都已經完成相關的預告程序目前大概會依照程序在7月1號之前來完成大部作業那當然有一些居民也疑慮就說像我們這個安全維護條例第六條第一項的這個許可事項他們也很擔心說那以後去拍攝這個跑道啦會不會有所影響那我有看到的國防部的這個曾經說起降畫面問題"},{"start":4404.445,"end":4420.162,"text":"可是我們現在看到就是說花蓮基地這個影片的這事件我們會否會想要考慮再做這個調整會嗎?還是目前還是以這個目前我們所通過的這個執法為主有沒有要做任何的這個調整嗎?會想要更嚴謹更嚴密嗎?"},{"start":4423.086,"end":4433.64,"text":"我們這個軍生營區安全恢復條例還是會按照我們現在相關的這個預定期程就會來上路7月就是會來上路對對對因為這個營區這個"},{"start":4437.365,"end":4460.116,"text":"安全的維護條例它已經有將相關的這些包括我們固定的這些軍事安全營區或者是我們正在施行一些戰備演訓的部分都已經也納入了所以我想這個整個來看應該是有周全"},{"start":4460.754,"end":4469.021,"text":"所以我們會如期來施行那當然再看看後續我們執行的狀況OK 好 謝謝 以上謝謝好 謝謝謝謝羅委員接下來有請陳俊武委員上台質詢"},{"start":4490.421,"end":4492.263,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長有請部長 謝謝好 部長早"},{"start":4500.676,"end":4522.385,"text":"部長,接續剛剛的羅委員質詢的部分不管是我們空軍花蓮基地的問題,不管是影片是AI所形成的或是說有可能是他們透過什麼方式去取得部分的相片或影片"},{"start":4524.466,"end":4542.593,"text":"可能也涉及到相關的一個比較機敏的一個市政我希望說我們國防部針對這個部分應該要能夠這個積極的掌握相關的情勢避免相關的這個情勢繼續的發生那我想就叫是在"},{"start":4543.649,"end":4557.119,"text":"對於空拍我們軍事營區的事件從2022年以來我們也看到中國的民用無人機多次侵擾我們金門單靠目視的察覺和干擾槍的反制"},{"start":4563.257,"end":4579.07,"text":"恐怕是這個量能會不足那我們在各個重要的軍事單位尤其是機場周邊是否都有規劃建置無人機的預警以及反制的系統或裝備以避免機民處"},{"start":4582.111,"end":4608.769,"text":"還有這個營區還有其他這個相關的部署會外洩的情形那我想就叫部長就目前我們對這個部分的進度是否都符合這個預期已經進行當中跟委員報告我想第一個還是要說明這一個在流傳的影片應該不是以無人機的方式來進行拍攝的這是第一點第二點"},{"start":4609.676,"end":4624.532,"text":"那剛剛陸軍已經有說明了,我們採購無人機的反制系統26套那麼我們會在今年交付13套,那其餘的會在明年交付,這個是屬於部署在金馬東營等地區的"},{"start":4626.514,"end":4643.903,"text":"那至於另外由這個空軍統建的這個部分,也就是屬於中科院的這個包括固定式跟機動式的這個部分那我們也陸續正在這個結腳這個當中,那我想等這個整個"},{"start":4647.222,"end":4672.913,"text":"完畢之後呢,我想我們這個無人機的防制系統在各個基地我想就能夠充分的掌握有關無人機來實施空拍的這些作為這樣好,那部長我們針對這個無人機的部分我們目前就是用這個目視察覺還有這個干擾槍的一個反制那還有沒有其他比較先進的方式可以來反制?"},{"start":4674.869,"end":4691.257,"text":"剛剛提到有關中科院所做的UDS防禦系統,我想驗證的結果應該是可以來反制這些小型的無人機"},{"start":4694.161,"end":4723.489,"text":"我想除了這個中科院的這個反制作業的相關設施以外我們也看到漢翔公司目前也積極的投入發展這個無人機的反制系統建立自有的這個防疫產品並且目前已經進入系統測試的階段那近期內我們陸軍也以國防創新發展名義公開徵求可吸式的這個無人機反制系統規格上要求能夠干擾其接管"},{"start":4723.989,"end":4735.717,"text":"一二級的這個無人機並且能夠偵測到操作者的一個位置等等那國防部是否還有針對不同單位的這個需求對於無人機反制系統有擴大這個研發採購的一個相關計畫我先請陸軍"},{"start":4743.09,"end":4765.328,"text":"報告委員 委員剛才所提詢的除了兩個部分第一個機場的UDS的固定室還有機動室之外那另外剛才部長所答詢的包含到外離島地區那我們陸軍現在也正在評估各層級部隊對無人機的反制上的需求那所以我們目前在依照一個公開商情的做一個了解"},{"start":4766.008,"end":4774.114,"text":"國內外目前反制系統的成熟程度那未來納入我們的各層級無人機反制系統的一個配置的規劃"},{"start":4776.848,"end":4805.142,"text":"也就是說我們會有新型式的無人機的反制系統會有更新型式的新型式另外我想就我們國防產業的一個發展合作來救救我們國防部台灣一直希望能夠打入美國的國防供應鏈日前我們行政院龔明欣秘書長在訪美的過程當中曾經公開表示美國在無人機的研究上有"},{"start":4806.342,"end":4829.941,"text":"這個最先進的一個技術那台灣則在這個生產的方面我們有對於這個部分蠻精進的一個生產線那具體指出台美軍工產業合作的一個可能性過去這個AIT處長古立遠也在近期的一個專訪當中指出雙方在這個無人機領域的一個合作聚焦"},{"start":4831.162,"end":4853.395,"text":"會在AI應用還有供應鏈整合以及投資等三個重大的領域近期內對於台美共同生產的武器的討論似乎已經逐漸的明朗具體化我想請教部長雙方在推動共同生產的議題上就目前能夠公開揭露的部分是否已經有更進一步的發展"},{"start":4855.416,"end":4877.949,"text":"美國在跟我們從事相關的軍事交流的部分呢特別針對這個以俄烏戰爭的一個經驗那特別我們以一個海島的國家對於無人機要從事相關的這個後續的這個生產跟這個供應的是也就是說我們並"},{"start":4879.765,"end":4903.883,"text":"並不那麼的簡單說從外國來運不過來所以我們要建立自主的生產能量是相當的重要所以在這個部分呢不管是透過授權生產或共同研發或者是在地來生產然後來排除這個非紅的供應鏈這個部分我想我們現在都在進行當中"},{"start":4906.095,"end":4922.554,"text":"我想請教部長,目前我們跟美方的合作,他們比較關切的會是什麼?哪一方面的事情?應該比較關切的應該就是說,我們的自主的產能,是不是足夠因應?"},{"start":4924.491,"end":4952.779,"text":"自主的產能對現在就是說我們需要有一些關鍵的一些技術嘛這是一點那這些關鍵的技術我們可能可以透過授權的方式可以透過共同研發的方式那或者是透過這個我們自己本身跟民間的能量來進行研發這些現在無人機的產業我想已經快速的相當已經"},{"start":4954.199,"end":4962.804,"text":"已經有快速的在形成一定的這個能量但要因應這一個就是說"},{"start":4964.013,"end":4981.065,"text":"足夠的產能,這個部分我們還需要努力就在產能方面對,產能的一個擴張那這個部分跟委員報告也就是說我們必須要打入國際供應鏈就是說國際的非紅供應鏈,這個部分我們必須要打入才會有一定的經濟規模"},{"start":4988.612,"end":5012.705,"text":"好,那這部分我們也期待國防部透過這次跟美方的合作能夠順利的打入供應鏈的提供那也讓雙方在軍工產業的合作上能夠進一步的合作對於我們國防產業的發展還有國家安全都能夠向上提升這是我們期待的是好,謝謝部長謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":5016.462,"end":5033.409,"text":"好 謝謝俊宇委員接下來有請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":5043.278,"end":5051.96,"text":"是,黃委員好部長好,那個有關於我們現在的這個海馬斯實彈的這個試射的一個訊號的異常那這個海馬斯是經過這個二五實戰的一個戰爭裡面它的針對這個效果不錯那是美國提供的"},{"start":5071.718,"end":5085.293,"text":"但是現在就是在過程中有兩度在國軍採購的海馬斯多管火箭5月12日首次在九鵬基地進行的實彈射擊"},{"start":5087.555,"end":5111.41,"text":"在過程中兩度發生訊號異常導致射擊被迫暫停之後靠美方人員現場的協助才完成了33發的射擊那請問部長這所謂的信號異常是什麼發生的原因是什麼那你回答一下好不好是請陸軍"},{"start":5113.251,"end":5129.564,"text":"我也好 向您報告首先我說明一下我們所採購的海馬斯系統是目前美方最新的海馬斯的火箭飛彈系統那有關於在九龐射擊當天的訊號異常那是在射擊命令傳輸到這個射控電腦之後射控電腦它自行檢測計算出的一個故障的訊息"},{"start":5137.791,"end":5155.417,"text":"那經過我們的操作手按照美方寄令的一個程序故障排除之後也順利射擊了那這個狀況我們當在會射擊結束之後也立刻反映給美方的寄袋還有反映回美國那他目前給我們的一個回覆是"},{"start":5157.838,"end":5182.097,"text":"這個系統上面它主要功能都是完整的那最主要是它的電腦檢測上面應該是軟體上面它的一個偶發那目前在美軍或是其他的供售國在這個軟體程式也發現類似的狀況那會盡快的做一個軟體的修訂所以基本上不是全車系統上的問題是一個軟體程式上面需要再做修正的問題"},{"start":5183.078,"end":5189.005,"text":"故障排除當然是一個信念的一環但是"},{"start":5190.711,"end":5211.993,"text":"第一個 故障排除是特殊的狀況確保武器妥善才是根本那第二 海馬斯是新的裝備那理論上首次試射不應該出這個問題第三 排除故障是靠美方人員協助第四 信號異常"},{"start":5213.334,"end":5241.526,"text":"不只是發生一次所以不要拿這個信念當作是一個藉口所以本席認為故障的原因大致上有幾個可能性所以你剛剛信號資訊這個問題就已經在裡面第一個系統內部連線或裝備設定的異常第二美軍原廠安全控管的機制第三"},{"start":5243.807,"end":5260.478,"text":"電池環境複雜過強第四GPS的干擾或欺敵所以如果故障的原因是出於技術的問題當然本席第一項和第二項相信"},{"start":5261.798,"end":5288.509,"text":"國軍有絕對的能力排除但本席最擔心的是第三第四項而且是擔心共軍的干擾所以剛剛我講的就是GPS有沒有可能性是這樣的一個問題你坦白講因為這個現在共軍在任何在磁波上在電信上都非常的強所以你可以老實講說這是不是"},{"start":5290.35,"end":5314.109,"text":"GPS的干擾就是共機的干擾在九棚整個的涉及基本上對電池環境包含到第一可能的這個訊號的接收都是在我們整個的管控和防制作為內現在擔心本身擔心的不是沒有原因2023到2025的二五的戰爭的期間海馬斯系統就發生過因為GPS的干擾"},{"start":5320.074,"end":5337.427,"text":"而遭摧毀而且共青擁有強大的電子戰的能力根據過往的經驗共青殘害系的部署R9電機戰海上電子干擾的等見及紀律"},{"start":5339.088,"end":5365.415,"text":"九鵬東側外海的一百到兩百公里的範圍活動甚至共青的陸基電戰雷達戰都有能力以電磁波壓制範圍包含福建沿海至台灣東部的一百五十公里到兩百五十公里的範圍所以這就是今天我要講的是電子干擾確實有沒有這個回事"},{"start":5368.816,"end":5394.837,"text":"當天在整個射擊除了海空域還有包含到整個電池環境都是我們在射擊會考慮的安全事項當天沒有異常的情況那為什麼出過兩次的異常所以你們沒有真正的回答這個問題嗎出過兩次的回答而且這個是美方協助的喔是在現場協助怎麼會有兩次的異常那你們有沒有找出問題"},{"start":5395.457,"end":5422.71,"text":"報告委員我剛剛跟您報告這個是操作手依照美紀令他自行實施故障排除的那但是是在會後向現場的紀帶我們也回覆到美方那證實是攝控軟體的一個需要更新的問題軟體更新它是新的武器所以你們自己要去考慮面對事情的時候我們趕快去解決今天的共青的電子播報電子戰都非常的強大了"},{"start":5423.19,"end":5440.1,"text":"所以這個是要如何防範將來以後GPS的干擾干擾到我們新的武器好不好這是你們要去研究的以上好 謝謝黃仁委員 部長請回接下來進行巡達的委員 沈伯陽委員"},{"start":5451.798,"end":5452.322,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝來 部長請"},{"start":5465.657,"end":5486.942,"text":"今天因為蠻多人在問無人機拍攝在小紅書上面的影片我不針對這個內容因為剛剛前面大概都已經回答過了但我這邊比較有疑慮的事情是說因為這件事情大概幾天前發生的發生的時候當然這個國人對此有疑慮所以記者其實很快就拿來問"},{"start":5489.142,"end":5504.123,"text":"其實那個時候我有先問國防部就是針對這件事情的回應但是並沒有很快得到解答所以就變成說我們在晚間新聞的時候我們就只好自己先來看畫面然後確認到底有沒有無人機的拍攝還是衛星中間有沒有AI"},{"start":5505.066,"end":5524.132,"text":"然後甚至呢裡面那個圖裡面有沒有錯誤就針對這一個人來針對媒體回答但我覺得這樣並不是一個很正常的事情就在於說照理說這件事情回答的第一時間在不管是晚間那一定是那個傍晚嘛就是晚間新聞的時候應該是由國防部來說明而不是由我來說明"},{"start":5524.332,"end":5552.141,"text":"所以就是說針對這件事情不知道未來因為這一件認知作戰或者相關的威脅又或者說合成的影片又或者真的可能會有拍攝就是說針對這一些訊息我們不需要國防部具姓名義的告訴國人因為這裡面可能牽涉很多互相的攻防但有時候會有一個比較general的回應就是在於說這件事情我們目前掌握到什麼樣的程度然後未來我們可能會在哪裡需要加強是不是針對這一點請部長說明一下"},{"start":5554.572,"end":5570.812,"text":"我想委員的指教是正確的啦我想我們會以後碰到這個狀況我們會盡速的來做出回應因為我怕說這個以後可能會越來越多像最近不只只有這些像最近可能在網路上也有很多就是說這個"},{"start":5572.293,"end":5592.939,"text":"說跟中國統一沒有什麼不好啊什麼等等之類的這跟國防部沒有直接的關係但很明顯就是有可能對方在做類似的這種網軍的操作那這種操作呢有時候第一時間假設未來開始跟國防有關的時候有可能需要國防部越來越經常性的出來回應那有些可能是國安就可能需要國安局那這個部分我覺得是蠻重要的"},{"start":5593.459,"end":5615.409,"text":"那另外也有一點就是剛剛前面也有人問過就是中科院針對這一個無人機的侵擾之前大概20在之前質詢的時候就有提到2023年可能會有一定的這些預警的雷達或什麼等等之類的一個方案那個其成因為剛剛羅委員問過了所以我就不多問但我想問另外一個也是跟這個比較有關係的跟剛剛那個議題其實有關就是"},{"start":5616.629,"end":5637.919,"text":"這個把機的上面這個接收器的晶片疑似有中國製那我現在先不管說它內容到底這個如何或者說到底有沒有中國製這個問題現在有一個狀況跟剛剛有點類似就是在於說其實有好幾次上次我們在問的時候也是就是國防部有主動清查因為場上真的非常多那主動清查之後呢發現有中國製"},{"start":5639.079,"end":5665.24,"text":"然後中國製之後請他要改善等等之類的常常會有這樣的一些狀況但常常都會是媒體報導之後然後國防部才出來說的確這個是我們已經有清查過的清查過的時候當時有發現所以有請他改善所以會不會針對類似像這樣的事情是不是也有一個改進的空間就是在於說如果今天是有國防部主動他本來就已經發現的他已經清查的他其實可以主動直接跟國人說明"},{"start":5665.74,"end":5684.373,"text":"他不用等到媒體都特別出來報導說哦疑似有中資疑似有中國零件然後就變成說在這個場合國防部再來回應但是這件我不在講這件事情但我說這個衍生相關的事項是不是有可能以後會有一個比較提早的跟國人來說明那這樣的話呢你就不用一直被動的挨打這個我們可以來"},{"start":5691.136,"end":5712.462,"text":"討論一下就是說委員的意思應該是說即使在這個事情還沒有被報導之前我們就主動的來說明這件事情這樣就對了對因為我覺得其實有時候有發生錯誤廠商有問題等等之類的或者內控的控管沒有嚴格這些其實有錯誤都沒有關係像今天軍備局的這個報告我有看到他就講說我們現在發現我們有哪幾項錯誤"},{"start":5715.023,"end":5742.142,"text":"所以我們這些錯誤來做相關的改正其實我覺得這是一個很健康的態度就是說本來我們就是要滾動式的針對這些事情來做修正那如果說因為是標準不明結果發生了問題又或者說今天是標準明確結果是廠商的問題不同的種類如果國防部先出來說明的話就不用一直來應對媒體這樣的一個又有人出來爆料又有可能是廠商可能沒有得標的以後結果跑出來又要爆料一些事物那這個會沒完沒了啦"},{"start":5742.841,"end":5745.702,"text":"這個有關於黃國一把機這個事情向您做個報告第一個我們在這個微博報導之後我們有針對他報導的這個RF接收機和相關的晶片第一個我們詢問的廠商我首先報告我們這個的採購的契約裡面就強調禁止使用中國的"},{"start":5767.328,"end":5796.528,"text":"製造的相關內部的元件或是錄製品那第二個我們詢問了廠商之後他是說他不是使用那但是我們也把相關的電子元件目前全部拆解送到專案的實驗室去進行檢查那在檢查出來之後我會向委員做個報告OK好那這個我們再來說明那這個就不一樣因為這個就是他是報導了之後呢就會去問但是他可能不是那不是之後還要再送進一步的檢驗那就不是我剛剛講的這個情形"},{"start":5798.189,"end":5821.803,"text":"接下來因為這個最近有些駭客活動越來越多但是因為這個是比較長期性的問題那今天跟解凍有關所以我問下一個跟這個跟預算比較有關的就是說因為4月1號的時候就已經有說這一個加薪等一下可能請部長講一下就是4月1號這個公佈之後對於這個國軍他的士氣等等的影響"},{"start":5822.503,"end":5837.708,"text":"但另外我只想追問一個小問題就是說我在去年11月13號的時候有在問就是這個休假補助費因為現在就會有假都休不完的問題那假都休不完呢用加班費不太合適尤其是國軍現在的這個狀況"},{"start":5839.429,"end":5862.159,"text":"所以我記得之前嘉賓委員其實也有問過就是休假補助費那因為2024年的時候這個人事總署應該2023、2023就有說要從寬來做一個認定那因為我前陣子問國防部的回應是說就有可能這個休不完的假可能要累積到明年但是如果這樣子的話因為我們都知道如果今年休不完的假累積到明年明年也一定也休不完"},{"start":5862.959,"end":5890.94,"text":"但是這會牽扯到預算因為如果用休假補助金的方式一人就算一天用一千來算那這個如果說用自願一五萬人來算這個金額也不小一億以內大概也是一定的金額所以就這個問題因為之前有說三個月之內希望有一個方案那是不是之後可以來這一個辦公室我們再來討論一下就是休假補助金這件事情我們應該要怎麼處理那這邊先請部長想要跟國人說明一下就是四月一號這個加薪之後目前來講這個狀況如何"},{"start":5893.273,"end":5910.061,"text":"四月要加薪之後,我到基層去做一些訪視的時候,可以感覺到他們對這個加薪都非常有感覺因為這個加薪的幅度,自願意加上戰鬥部隊的"},{"start":5911.683,"end":5935.922,"text":"這個加薪的程度來講,我覺得現在都有一定相當程度的成長像我手上現在的資料,如果你以戰鬥部隊來講,以一個二兵來講如果他現在以志願役的勤務加給,加上戰鬥部隊的加給來看的話二兵大概都有到五萬四千一百五十塊錢所以我想應該是有感的"},{"start":5937.683,"end":5962.629,"text":"至於那個加班的那個委員好 一些數據先跟委員做個說明就是我們在10月1號加薪之後到目前為止就是報退伍有600多個人抽回來那不適服的部分也有87個他已經報不適服但是在加薪之後他又把它抽回來也就是說在留營跟不適服的這個部分都已經有成效"},{"start":5963.169,"end":5989.491,"text":"那在招募的部分,在第三批色情的招募也比去年同期增加600多人,這是首先跟委員報告那有關那個休假的部分,我們現在已經在研擬,就是不休假,剛剛委員講的我們已經研擬完了,那後續找時間再去跟委員辦公室做說明好,謝謝,那謝謝局部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝昭偉,這個不釋服了加了薪就釋服了,這個其實要研究一下看他不釋服到底什麼原因"},{"start":6001.911,"end":6002.651,"text":"主席麻煩顧部長有請部長"},{"start":6025.093,"end":6049.652,"text":"市長,我盡量問一個日期的問題,當然日期會有左右更動但是我們在設定計畫目標的時候,有的時候叫D-Day,有的時候叫Zero Day就是以事情那一天往回推算,我該做好什麼樣的準備小朋友七月份要聯考,他就會往前推算,他要幾次模擬考哪一科考不好,三角函數哪裡不好,我哪裡來修正,大概所有的計畫都跟這差不多"},{"start":6050.598,"end":6076.17,"text":"那我們最近常常聽到一個時間叫做2027年2027年事實上在2015年提出到現在已經10年了當時習近平提出了幾個時間點2021中國共產黨建軍百年他們要脫貧然後他們時間到了不管有沒有脫貧一定宣布脫貧叫做2021脫貧小康那事實上中國現在還有4億人口每月所得低於1000塊"},{"start":6077.671,"end":6102.189,"text":"那另外一個2025中國製造也就中國要設定全球製造業的標準就像USB的標準一樣他們認為他們是世界工廠一個COVID-19這個也結束了沒有了所以2021的計畫事實上對中國來講包含李克強這個死掉以後呢中國的脫貧其實是算失敗2025中國製造被川普"},{"start":6103.37,"end":6119.156,"text":"這個拜登呢他們兩個其實在過去這幾年讓2025中國製造大概也結束了不管是晶片戰爭等等現在剩下一個日期叫20272027是中國解放軍建軍百年習近平講了很多話他其中講的就是2027要實現百年奮鬥目標"},{"start":6123.659,"end":6141.192,"text":"其中後面還有就是建構一個在這個區域可以排除干預區域性的強權那很多美方的智庫美方的將領大概就用2027作為解放軍動作的一個設定的D-Day"},{"start":6141.792,"end":6167.672,"text":"或者是Zero Day那0日就從那邊計算來的所以我要請教就是說我們看到一些說法2021年3月當時的Philip Davidson提出6年內中國會對台灣軍事行動6年就是指2027再來2024年的3月我們前一任的Archilino他最近有來台灣他在美國正式的作證"},{"start":6168.573,"end":6187.549,"text":"也指出解放軍這種種的準備措施大概在2027年前會具備對台採取軍事行動的能力4月24號這個他在接受訪問的時候呢他提出一個情報說習近平指示軍隊2027年前要做好準備再來"},{"start":6189.01,"end":6213.289,"text":"2024年10月這個帕帕羅上將呢他說2027年解放軍攻台提前發生他對於美軍會擊敗解放軍的能力有信心這時候講到因應了我這待會要請教部長2025年最新的3月18號這個卡頓卡頓是戰略司令部的他在年度的國防大會警告美國的所有將領中國將加速軍事擴張"},{"start":6216.972,"end":6230.531,"text":"已經回到大國競爭的時代就冷戰時期那他又提出一次習近平只是在2027年前做好奪取台灣的軍事準備那5月15最近這個"},{"start":6233.494,"end":6255.947,"text":"這位好朋友他是美國在眾議院的重量級的共和黨級議員他是美國與中國共產黨戰略競爭特別委員會的主席另外一個是川普的好朋友是參議員叫做Blackburn他們除了提出各個飯店不應該用中國台灣來貶抑台灣主權以外他裡面提到"},{"start":6257.368,"end":6276.71,"text":"2027年不是美國的時間表是中國的是習近平的時間表習近平已經下令解放軍在2027年前準備對台動武的能力好我揭露這些東西裡面看到了美國在軍事委員會在相關的委員會作證的情報的指出我第一個要請教"},{"start":6278.192,"end":6293.369,"text":"部長就我們國防部所掌握的情資解放軍建構的戰爭系統也就是他建構的體系是否已經朝2027年準備完成對台動武的準備你們的判斷是什麼"},{"start":6294.687,"end":6318.723,"text":"我們認為我們應該要讓我們一方面是料敵從寬一方面是我們要讓他2027年的這樣子的一個所謂的攻台的計畫不斷的往後遞延這是我們的目的讓他每天早上起來覺得今天打台灣好像不是好日子我們再想一下吧這是在區域地緣政治討論很多"},{"start":6321.559,"end":6330.564,"text":"所以我們要強化我們的自我的防衛能力所以有做一些準備那你有看到中方也在做準備嗎當然中方每天都以他這樣"},{"start":6332.042,"end":6352.674,"text":"每年大概成長百分之七,每年吧,都七點多趴的這樣的一個軍事預算不斷地在成長,那當然我們對這個東西要加以警惕,這是當然的。所以我請教部長,就是說中國解放軍對台的威脅到二零二七年是不是來到一個高峰,可以這樣講嗎?"},{"start":6353.991,"end":6375.206,"text":"他的威脅的性質,我沒有問說我們有沒有準備好,就他的準備,他的對我們的威脅,到2027年前後是不是來到一個高峰期?我認為他應該是不斷地會從事這個,他的軍事力量的一個擴張,而且他的野心應該不是只有在於這個亞太的區域,"},{"start":6375.706,"end":6401.779,"text":"的一個霸權 而且他會向這個還會往外擴張整個的往外擴張因為他騷擾的不是只有台灣 菲律賓那邊都有那我該問的是他 就我們看中國解放軍對台灣的威脅準備到達2027年 至少他們的節點要做個盤整那我現在看我軍 我們台灣 我們國軍我們準備最不足的時候是不是已經過了"},{"start":6403.71,"end":6423.363,"text":"最危險的我們最敵我的判別就是人家對我們的威脅他一直堆疊他的能力是一件事情我們自己有沒有準備我們能力夠不夠是另外一個界面兩個界面交叉分析那個點就是最危險的點嘛我現在說那就我方我們國軍我直接坦白問最不足最危險的時刻過了沒我想我們"},{"start":6427.492,"end":6442.189,"text":"要不斷地求進步不斷地要同時進行國安改革所以我們提出來就是說2027要有達成這個高戰備的能力意思就是說我們要能夠在2027年"},{"start":6444.531,"end":6457.638,"text":"的時候呢要可以達到在極短的時間之內部署跟執行戰那個高戰備的意思其實就是讓我們台灣國軍我坦白講特別是陸軍要成為stand in force"},{"start":6460.175,"end":6474.309,"text":"戰區內準備好的而這個力量其實指的是我們的主戰部隊第一時間的主戰部隊要有類似美國他們兵海戰鬥團那一句Standing in force在區內立即快速的擋住"},{"start":6475.49,"end":6495.446,"text":"我們現在建構目標是這樣子嗎我想應該不只是我們的陸軍我們所有的三軍都要三軍的我剛才問說我們準備最不足或最危險的時候是不是已經過了我看你微笑你應該知道我在問什麼了我時間點我不點出來那個moment要過去那未來威脅我們才要來因應那另外我再進一步問"},{"start":6496.852,"end":6509.649,"text":"我們高戰備所指的就是在那個當下我們的人跟人的狀態跟部隊的心態都要達到能夠立即因應各種變化敵情指的是這個嘛"},{"start":6510.75,"end":6524.502,"text":"對 也就是說我們要藉由立即備戰的操演 漢光演習等等各式的聯合作戰的訓練來獲知真實的戰場體驗跟作戰的參數 確保我最後一分鐘問幾個重要題目所以在2027年前 我們對美軍事採購的項目有沒有根據這個思維 要拿到什麼項目 我們有所調整 有還是沒有"},{"start":6536.092,"end":6552.34,"text":"我們不斷的在跟美方從這樣子的一個思維出發從我在國安會擔任秘書長的時候就開始討論我們從2021年就不斷的在做這樣子的一個共識的行程"},{"start":6552.56,"end":6567.675,"text":"美方認為當下最急於提供的裝備也是根據這個思維應該有一些裝備也有所調整我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛這是一個長期的溝通過程我方認為這個是我需要的他們認為2027年你們應該需要這個兩方討論後之後項目會做一些調整沒有錯吧對關鍵戰力的行程"},{"start":6574.682,"end":6583.937,"text":"那我最後問一個人的問題我只舉個例子我們今年三軍官校招生女生好像超過了但是男生的學官不足這怎麼辦"},{"start":6587.497,"end":6611.413,"text":"應該講的是指國防管理學院跟政戰學院的部分我們今年的正規的軍事院校所招收的名額都比我們預期要來得多來得好來得好這個要比去年要來得好很多也就是說我們預期本來是招收一千五百多今年是四千零八"},{"start":6612.709,"end":6630.882,"text":"預計照說一千五百多然後報名的四千多這其實比以前好很多不是比較好而已是好很多好非常多男女學官有沒有失衡跟委員報告我覺得就是說現在拿我覺得第一個"},{"start":6632.116,"end":6658.688,"text":"我們招收希望能夠滿足我們的這個需求那我們確實現在招收的名額已經遠高於我們的預期這是第一點第二點我們在招收的時候我們並不認為要區分男女這樣子的一個比例那第三個我認為女性從事志願役之後她們的表現也不輸於男性"},{"start":6659.508,"end":6687.269,"text":"那再來就是說我們我們還要修法我們第四點我簡單講就是說我們之後志願役的這個軍事官兵等退伍之後我們還是納入後備的這個動員邊關的範圍之內我剛才講說我們在招收官校的學官的時候這些學生的時候我們並沒有設定男女生的比例差異沒有嘛我們不可能我們設定是個總員合我要收一千五這一千五不分男女達標我就用嘛"},{"start":6688.029,"end":6708.026,"text":"對所以所謂的男生不足女生偏多這句論述本身是錯誤的對我們都以成績的優勢我們沒有設定性別的差別是OK好謝謝好謝謝謝謝丁宇委員部長請回接下來有請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們有請顧部長有請部長"},{"start":6725.217,"end":6751.858,"text":"是徐恩好部長好我也是接續下來要問這個我們在招收國軍的普遍狀況那呢剛才這個王定宇委員也講到了在國防大學的管理學院裡面呢預計收140人那現在有158人出現了難得的超額那一年級裡面呢男生是68人女生是90人那等於說呢女生是比男生多了四成那這也是創下了空前的紀錄所以您說的沒有錯"},{"start":6752.538,"end":6781.445,"text":"就是說呢我們招生的狀況整體來說是比較多的但是呢女性的部分呢也多了百分之四十那呢這個很大的很多人都會問說那請問我接著問說那請問男生招生就我們不講女生女性來從軍很好女生的表現一定也很好但是我想要問一下為什麼男性那現在在報名軍上那會相對於女性少這麼多呢你們所了解的原因是什麼"},{"start":6782.208,"end":6798.419,"text":"我們了解原因就是說我們採成績的一個排序所以男生成績比較不好折優來錄取那為什麼來參加報考的男生成績會比較不好所以折優之後是女性比較多呢"},{"start":6799.88,"end":6825.976,"text":"是說成績比較好的男生不想要來報考這個報告委員你們要不要去了解一下為什麼他會有失衡的這個情形報告委員我台大法律系畢業就我了解現在台大法律系B那個遭受的名額結果那個如果你去看的話女生的數也比男生多對啊我知道嘛那你要我說怎樣呢你要說"},{"start":6827.423,"end":6843.713,"text":"我覺得男女現在是平等的我們現在對男女的從軍我們也都鼓勵的我們也不認為女性的表現會在畢業之後會比男性來得差而且表現有時候甚至比男性來得好"},{"start":6844.433,"end":6869.699,"text":"好我們看下一張您剛說軍哨招收成績都是超額的三軍官預計是786人現有440人招募率56%然後沒有男女之分可是你可以看到我們現在畫的這個圖上面跟當初簡章規劃的這個數字規劃的數字在軍費身上面是有男性跟女性的我們陸軍官校海軍官校空軍官校理工學院管理學院跟戰戰學院"},{"start":6870.859,"end":6894.994,"text":"其實都是在招收的時候有男女生的差別啊那我們在法律系你剛剛講的他考台大法律系裡面他上面會告訴你說我們預計招收男性多少女性多少他沒有啊所以這兩者之間是不能做比較的呀我們軍費生的招收元額軸表上面有沒有寫女性跟男性的分別有嗎跟委員報告我們沒有去區分男生跟女生"},{"start":6900.885,"end":6929.681,"text":"你們沒有去區分男生跟女生那招生元額總表為什麼要分我們只是在區隔男性多少女性多少對就是說現在的現在的所有大一到大四的所有男生跟女生有多少人對啊那你們不是說都不需要區分嗎那為什麼我們在招生元額總表我講的不是現在是你們招生元額總表上面就針對一般生飛行生上面你們就有分男性跟女性"},{"start":6929.861,"end":6948.53,"text":"委員報告就是說我們三軍官校目前就是說還是女生報名比較少但是罹管證的部分因為他們畢業大部分在後勤或者是心腹或者是醫院的這個部分那這樣子男女生我們就不會有任何區別我沒有說要有區別"},{"start":6949.17,"end":6974.788,"text":"我從頭到尾您不要誤解我的意思我沒有說要有區別我也鼓勵女性從軍報考軍校那能夠有好的成績我也覺得很棒我只是說剛剛講的這個比喻是不倫不類因為我們在招生緣額總表上面就有分成是男性跟女性那現在大家問的問題是說為什麼女性呢看起來現在是好您說因為成績排序比較前面所以超額招收的時候它會被列在比較前面"},{"start":6975.709,"end":7004.117,"text":"但實際上面我們看到的狀況就是在畢業以後那他們可能比較多的人他像您說的去了新府單位或者後勤單位那請問我們戰鬥部隊或者是我們憲兵比方說先前的2110的邊縣比等到他們從這個學校畢業之後如果他從事志願役那在這個男性的他們可能在前線部隊人數是比較多那這個時候會不會造成軍方我們整體的失衡的情況這是你們要去再多加討論的"},{"start":7005.937,"end":7022.925,"text":"我想兩點第一點招生緣和總表區分男女比例只是一個現況的呈現不代表任何其他的任何意涵這是第一點第二點我到基層部隊裡面去看的時候我看到很多女性服役的表現"},{"start":7023.945,"end":7042.268,"text":"都不會比男生來的差我完全認同所以我只是要強調這一點我剛剛也講過跟你一模一樣的話對我來講我看不出有任何其他除了呈現一個說男生跟女生是多少之外有其他的任何意義存在啊"},{"start":7042.694,"end":7059.607,"text":"OK 好 那你們就覺得這樣子的發展對於接下來繼續有這樣子的一個情況的話你們也是樂於看待的樂觀其成我們對於女性的軍事觀以後納入後備的一個叫招這樣我理解了你們認為現在這個狀況可以繼續往這個方向發展嗎那我只是要了解一下你們想法是什麼那另外我們想要問一下這個海昆號的這個進度"},{"start":7068.174,"end":7074.919,"text":"那因為我們可以看一下在2024年的時候11月25號的新聞這還刊載在青年日報上面呢那就有媒體曾經報導過這個我們往下一張看圖片媒體當時報導說海昆號的測試HAT不如預期那4月還是有困難海軍司令部還回應說呢現在已經這個以嚴謹的態度控管預計案節點你們的計畫節點是4月1期程進行海上測試SAT"},{"start":7097.176,"end":7101.459,"text":"在5月6號的時候呢說海軍已經進到最後的準備階段了兩週前呢說是大概520的時候那現在呢5月23號的時候呢說這個要等到海昆號達到安全條件以後才會進行海上測試沒有時間表那請問這個不斷延期的原因是什麼"},{"start":7118.533,"end":7132.779,"text":"就我們從青年日報上面我們真的發新聞稿2025年的2月5號一路到這個4月5月6月這個6月還沒到5月到現在已經多次的針對海昆號的部分那有討論到時間點"},{"start":7134.36,"end":7150.214,"text":"然後節點你們都說在節點上可是你看喔先前在2月25號的時候的按計劃節點是在4月1期程執行海上測試但到現在突然都沒有時間表了我想要問一下不斷延期的原因到底在哪裡"},{"start":7151.175,"end":7167.367,"text":"我想在最近這個海軍有關於海上測試說要在4月設定一個實際出來的時程這件事情我的理解並沒有這樣講過我們還是以我的了解是海軍是說我們已經"},{"start":7176.618,"end":7181.34,"text":"要盡力的努力完成最後備件的階段應該是這樣子吧2月25號不對2025年2月25號的青年日報上面寫的是青年日報我可不是引用一般的新聞媒體報導寫說海軍說海昆號一騎乘於4月執行海上測試第二點叫做呢現在呢這個"},{"start":7202.768,"end":7221.639,"text":"現在沒有電壓不穩的問題續按計劃節點於4月1期程執行海上測試這個是你們公開的在這個地方我可以給大家看所以部長您剛剛說的是不對的或許你沒有看過當時2月25號所發的新聞稿所以按照節點的部分已經有所拖延我想委員需要給我們一點時間回答來"},{"start":7226.041,"end":7235.791,"text":"在去年的整個階段來講,整個海昆軍艦的海上測試從今年的四月份到九月份是海上測試的期程四月份到九月份都是海上測試的期程"},{"start":7246.342,"end":7254.449,"text":"要達到所有的裝備還有一些安全條件的設置我們都不需要都在符合安全的當然這個我也非常認同海上測試所以特別要跟委員講說其實我們並沒有如這個媒體上面講我們有預定要一個特定的一個時間來做一個我的意思是說你們的計劃節點有延遲"},{"start":7268.041,"end":7292.315,"text":"因為上一次我來問的時候你們告訴我說都沒有延遲都是按照計劃節點如期進行可是我現在拿的是2025年2月25號你們在第二點上面寫的你們講說你們的計劃節點是在今年的4月份做海上測試那所以我想問我們的海上測試按照計劃節點原定的計劃節點是否有延後的情況"},{"start":7295.236,"end":7307.302,"text":"我想跟委員報告就我光部的立場我們來要求海軍就是一切以安全這我都知道剛才他也講過了我問的是我們的計畫因為我們要做一個船我們總是有分計畫節點你們每次我問的時候你們都講說我現在目前按照計畫節點要怎麼做怎麼做怎麼做"},{"start":7316.047,"end":7333.356,"text":"那如果這個計劃節點沒有按照時程的話那它就是延後了所以我想要問說有沒有計劃節點原定的狀況之下因為安全的考量因為希望更完善的考量而延後按照原本的規劃而延後的情形發生就這麼簡單的一個問題而已"},{"start":7336.221,"end":7354.056,"text":"剛剛參謀長已經講過了4月到9月是我們的一個海上測試的一個整個的一個期程但是要在安全的測試情況之下才能夠進行海測那這個就是我們的一個最高的一個原則那我希望海軍"},{"start":7354.876,"end":7361.962,"text":"能夠盡快的讓這個HAT的相關的這些所需要的調教等等技術能夠完成那以便能夠進行海測那我最後一個問題問因為呢在二月的時候我們的節點在海上測試的部分是到四月嘛對不對那現在目前呢都還沒有辦法完成博港測試那等於說按照原本的計畫的節點其實我這邊我自己講啦就是往後延了"},{"start":7382.239,"end":7383.459,"text":"我們現在還是會進行所必須要的海上測試的一些期程跟項目"},{"start":7407.641,"end":7421.044,"text":"當然那我想要問的是說你們有沒有預期好心理準備原定的11月交界會再往後延期了我們海上的測試的相關的期程我們會根據我們進入了海上測試階段會來做這個調整那麼這個項目的部分我們也不會打折"},{"start":7427.386,"end":7453.405,"text":"那最後一個問題就是說你們節點既然已經被打亂了那這幾個節點就是海上測試博港測試的節點海上測試的節點跟交建的這個整個幾個節點那要重新調整嗎如果要重新調整的話會告訴我們國防外交委員會或是社會大眾嗎我們進入海上測試之後如果委員有能夠要了解的話我想我們會以機密的方式來跟委員說說明好 謝謝"},{"start":7457.722,"end":7462.847,"text":"好 謝謝徐委員 部長請回接下來有請林屬英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長"},{"start":7478.097,"end":7499.149,"text":"我要問的題目其實跟網路相關如果我們的資通電軍的指揮參謀長可以的話你可以一起回應部長其實過去在質詢的時候我蠻關注的就是有關於社群媒體包括過去我講到的這個在社群的平台有粉絲團啊或者是一些廣告"},{"start":7500.37,"end":7527.097,"text":"引誘我們的軍中弟兄以所謂的軍人證就可以來貸款或者是低利貸款然後迫使他們進入一個金錢誘惑那麼可能造成我們的所謂軍中的資料或資訊外露的部分那麼在我的這個跟部長我們這個整個國安團隊以及我們國防部的努力之下其實本席現在去看那些粉專或者是相關的這種廣告其實已經減少非常多甚至於已經都找不到了"},{"start":7527.617,"end":7533.241,"text":"那麼但是我們都知道中國的灰色滲透方方面面我相信今天剛剛您來的時候媒體也都在問有關於這個花蓮的空軍基地在中國的社群平台當中被曝光那麼其實本席在許多的社群平台當中也都不斷的有網友在提醒"},{"start":7547.27,"end":7555.618,"text":"就是中國的社群平台看到台灣的軍機或者是我們這些軍民合作的這些空軍包括像這一張圖片是中國的抖音然後轉到了現在的包括其他的網路上面是我們的松山機場那麼我們知道那邊有一個松止步"},{"start":7566.229,"end":7583.016,"text":"其實這樣的資料或者是這樣的圖片跟影像在小紅書或者是抖音上面非常多甚至於是在抖音上有專門的這樣的帳號比如說我有看到的叫做什麼台灣小妮啊等等它其實就是不斷的在做一種台灣的軍事上面的曝光那麼其實這個它也可能是真的也可能是假的"},{"start":7593.16,"end":7614.293,"text":"但是無法避免的是在我們許多的基地比如說像松山的基地或者是像清泉崗基地它本身是軍民合用的同時一定就會有人會去進入攝影跟拍攝那是真是假不知如果部長所說的像今天花蓮的基地那個是假的"},{"start":7615.454,"end":7629.525,"text":"虛造的那它造成的是一種民心的擔憂因為包括像現在我們看到很多在報導當中都有提到就是會有人來拍攝台灣的街景拍攝台灣的學校那麼會認為是第五縱隊的滲透"},{"start":7634.289,"end":7658.57,"text":"那麼我想回到一個比較是管理面的部分來請問一下部長就是在我們幾個軍民合用的這些軍事基地當中我們到底能不能確保我們的空軍的這些包括軍機或者是粗缺勤的等等不會曝光在這個中國派人來進行操作或拍攝的過程部長參謀長要不要先說明一下"},{"start":7663.732,"end":7690.839,"text":"就空軍基地的部份軍民的養殖海豹委員在民航的部分是比較難去限制但是在登機之後一般我們都會要求民航機的機組員要在機內做一個廣播那我們在機場也會同時做一個廣播但是如果說他用像現在的手機在機場裡面在座艙裡面做一個拍攝的話這個是比較難去做一個防範"},{"start":7691.73,"end":7705.207,"text":"是那比如說像當然因為我現在沒有特別的想要去播中國抖音的影片啦那麼你們如何來判斷或判別這個到底是真的還是假的那如果是假的讓他放在網路上面"},{"start":7706.889,"end":7725.341,"text":"他會造成的是一種台灣民心的擾動覺得哇這個所謂第五縱隊或是中國的這個大軍已經壓境那如果是真的又如何來避免說他繼續的在網路上面流傳或流竄其實這個是本席其實想要追的問題之一喔那我不知道是部長還是這個參謀長可以來回復"},{"start":7731.724,"end":7756.834,"text":"我想就這個部分認知作戰的這個成分高那我們因此確實如委員所講的我們應該對這樣的一個認知作戰我們要進行反制是所以我想我們確實這個征戰部門也好我們相關的這些發言的系統也好我們應該要來"},{"start":7759.955,"end":7778.528,"text":"快速然後極力的澄清這樣部長我會提到這個部分是比如像這些影片除了我自己搜尋到之外也會有非常多的熱心的台灣的網友他會提供給我們到我的社群平台來那麼是真是假其實我不知道"},{"start":7778.908,"end":7781.971,"text":"我也必須透過質詢或者是私下來做詢問那為什麼本席會特別的想說我們其實是希望能夠解決問題我提出來的建議就是過去我剛剛為什麼開場的時候提到的是有關於軍人借貸的這種金融陷阱"},{"start":7794.062,"end":7803.351,"text":"那麼有沒有可能國防部可以跟數位部或者是跟NCC建立一個相關的就是涉軍事影像流通的這個平台然後去確認或者是說可以有一個通報的一個系統那麼讓民眾如果真的也看到了可以來做提醒跟提示那麼有沒有可能建立這樣因為他們丟給我"},{"start":7819.246,"end":7832.151,"text":"丟給委員希望能夠好像爆料的方式然後不論是真是假他們也不知道但是他們看到了這樣的隱憂那麼有沒有可能是建組這樣的一個平台提供民眾就像信箱一樣email一樣然後可以讓他們至少可以把這個訊息提供出來而這個訊息的判辯的過程當中可能不只是國防部包括數位部數位發展部NCC等等可以至少是我們可以來掌握的像"},{"start":7847.977,"end":7861.346,"text":"Meta啦或者是Google我們可以請他下架可是如果說是在像抖音或小紅書那麼我們沒有辦法但至少有沒有什麼樣的方式可以來進行一個有效的管理或者是處理"},{"start":7866.991,"end":7881.15,"text":"我們本來就是行政院治安團隊的一員事實上這些東西我們每天都在進行24小時監控以外有任何的違規或滲透行為我們都互相通報及時應處這是我們既有的機制事實上一直每天都在進行"},{"start":7882.551,"end":7885.773,"text":"好,本席的意思是說,既然你們有一個機制在這裡,那麼是一個行政院底下的資安團隊,那麼如果當民眾發現了,因為你知道,往海無邊啊,其實就靠你們來搜尋是不夠的,那麼如果有像這種民眾熱心的網友,他們搜尋到了或看到了,他們要"},{"start":7905.546,"end":7924.559,"text":"提供資訊給我們那與其提供給立委的辦公室不如提供給行政院或相關的主責單位是不是更好那麼有沒有可能去研議就是可以適時的公佈這樣的一個可以算是接受訊息的E-mail信箱或者是一個網站"},{"start":7925.58,"end":7948.589,"text":"那麼這個其實是有助於其實更厲害的這個民間高手啊高手在民間可以提供更大量的相關的資訊跟情資那麼有沒有可能去建立這樣的一個所謂的當然算是個什麼爆料專線或信箱就是收羅這些訊息或資訊那麼可以讓民眾可以提供給我們相關的單位"},{"start":7950.799,"end":7958.371,"text":"我們每週三都有固定的這樣的會議我們針對委員的意見我們把這個在本週三我們把它提出來看我們是不是有一個研討一個方式這樣執行"},{"start":7960.404,"end":7985.901,"text":"好因為時間到了當然我也希望就是這個灰色作戰的滲透其實方法是方方面面啦那包括這個國安的部分當然是國安局來做主責但是國防部警政系統包括警政署或是數位部等等我也建議其實要透過一個灰色作戰的跨部會的機制但是現在因為已經有一個國安相關的會議的話那麼至少我希望能夠設立一個這樣的一個機制跟平台讓"},{"start":7988.303,"end":7996.148,"text":"民間的朋友們他們發現相關的這樣的資訊的時候可以更快速的處理 好嗎好 謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝楚英委員 部長請回接下來有請鄭天才委員上台質詢"},{"start":8019.014,"end":8048.221,"text":"主席有請部長有請部長部長好這裡是台東的治航機場治航機場當年要開闢的時候把原住民的部落遷走了"},{"start":8050.114,"end":8074.351,"text":"原住民的部落 格格瓦善本來在這個自航機場裡面 自航機場裡面第一個被遷走 移到靠海的這邊叫 巴沙瓦里部落 富岡部落另外一個 格魯魯岸 加魯蘭部落遷到這個 比較上方這個地方"},{"start":8078.24,"end":8093.083,"text":"另外就是高高山本部落的名稱移到這邊來,這個十三部落。這麼多年來,我們的部落,我們的鄉親,配合國家的國防來遷移。"},{"start":8100.731,"end":8126.978,"text":"但是完全沒有受到照顧連基本的噪音基本的噪音的防治很難防治,很難防治所以只有靠補償結果連補償措施都沒有原因就是出在這個法例這個我們如果按照這個"},{"start":8128.427,"end":8145.687,"text":"因為都是用防治然後什麼用什麼補助這個基本上就是補助買那個啦買冷氣機啦基本上是這樣冷氣機其實沒有辦法防治啦那都是假的但是呢冷氣機呢"},{"start":8147.938,"end":8173.987,"text":"要十年,十一年啊,從八十九年開始才有八十九年開始才有八十九年到九十九年是十一年,一輪次要跟別的里要跟別的里要跟別的里要去輪,這麼多里,台東市這麼多的里要去輪"},{"start":8176.195,"end":8203.512,"text":"所以11年第一次是11年第二次也是非常長的一個時間所以這樣在一個情形之下民燕非常非常的不服而且完全無法達到防治其實是真的很難防治的那只好用應該要用補償民航啊民航機場全部都是用補償啊"},{"start":8204.895,"end":8227.022,"text":"民航機場所以本席啊來修法修噪音管制法第17條在110年1月20號公布施行增加了補償措施補償然後授權國防部要訂定補償的辦法好"},{"start":8233.97,"end":8253.028,"text":"經過了一年為了定這個110年1月20號公佈實行經過了一年國防部才訂出這個軍用機場噪音防治補償經費分配使用辦法很遺憾的在第12條"},{"start":8254.505,"end":8282.168,"text":"竟然規定第一計劃第十二條的第一計劃軍用機場管理單位以本辦法施行後下一個輪次制定一個不合理的規定下一個輪次就是在十年以後啊十年以後才採噪音補償措施啊部長你是學法的這樣的有合法嗎"},{"start":8284.625,"end":8312.188,"text":"有沒有違反這個噪音管制法何況它是受害最重的民航機場都是用補償啊 補償就是金額啊 金費啊因為你很難防治嘛根本無法防治嘛你說變成沒有聲音不可能嘛你要符合那個噪音管制法的相關的噪音"},{"start":8314.206,"end":8339.619,"text":"不可能嘛,所以要補償嘛好,部長無法回答,沒有關係事實上確實是不用問他們了我來給他們,我給部長看部長是想要說明一下不用,上次說明過了他有來說明了,好我們來看"},{"start":8341.906,"end":8368.608,"text":"本席所提的國防部的預算解凍案本席凍結國防部114年編列國防政策規劃及督導稅出預算共總共你的稅出預算是四億三千兩百四億三千兩百多萬本席只有凍結一千萬"},{"start":8373.105,"end":8384.894,"text":"100萬,講錯了,100萬本席只有凍結100萬因為我是公務員出身,我不會凍結很多就是希望國防部能夠積極的做"},{"start":8388.406,"end":8414.569,"text":"結果呢你們的意見是什麼本案凍結之經費就為辦理機場噪音防治補助手攜作業費涉及民眾潛意又要造謠了4億多的我只有凍100萬也沒有指定項目啊只針對國防政策規劃及督導啊這個項目很多啊"},{"start":8415.865,"end":8443.548,"text":"哎呀 光法律事務就三千多萬啊對不對凍結那個法律事務三千多萬有什麼關係一百萬而已啊何況我沒有指定啊非得要說涉及民眾潛力這個就是造謠啊而且還說本部持續檢討修訂沒有要訂 沒有要修啊"},{"start":8445.987,"end":8464.134,"text":"那麼簡單,要修這個很簡單啊把那個第一計畫拿掉就好了啊這麼容易的事情啊就是第一項修正而已啊讓它符合讓它符合噪音管制法第17條110年1月20號的"},{"start":8468.348,"end":8496.71,"text":"修正條文委員是不是可以讓我們有個說明我聽過他們說了我只要請部長你要敢騰順受一個部落要開自航機場我們願意你要知道當時的當時的年代說簽就簽啦也沒什麼完全沒有補償啦土地還是變成國有土地後來是我們去爭取才變成私有土地的"},{"start":8498.818,"end":8524.258,"text":"現在只是為了噪音補償你要有設身處事如果你是住在這裡竟然不如民航機場的噪音補償對不對 國防預算這麼多要輪也要輪十年啊光輪那個設施的部分啊對不對"},{"start":8526.758,"end":8552.708,"text":"這什麼民權國家民主國家對不對我是要讓部長第一個你是寫法律這個法就不對了修的你們修的這個辦法就是不對所以不是你我為什麼不請他們說明呢他們就是沒有錢的沒有錢所以只好這樣修啊然後呢居然聽地方政府的意見"},{"start":8554.947,"end":8571.677,"text":"因為地方政府說要怎麼樣這是不對的聽地方政府聽地方政府的意見你要依法行政部長當然我不會堅持要凍結公務員出生也沒辦法但是部長"},{"start":8582.97,"end":8608.357,"text":"你寫法的要指導這些國防部的同仁都不是寫法的以上 謝謝很遺憾我也沒有給我們說明的機會好不好我希望你說明啊 因為你都不說明啊不是 因為你的意思我要說明你就不讓我說明好 請說因為你一直要你們的同仁說我就不 我聽過他們說了啦"},{"start":8610.558,"end":8613.379,"text":"接下來有請王宏威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我請部長"},{"start":8646.578,"end":8647.559,"text":"針對軍事審判的部分,你說要重新開機。過去大家也都提過,當年你是作為太陽花的律師的時候,你說絕對要不允許軍法來做復辟。"},{"start":8667.794,"end":8669.896,"text":"當然你現在又講說時空環境不一樣了等等之類我想請問一下有關於不管是通敵或泄密或者是有共諜案現在都是在司法院法庭上去處理"},{"start":8688.65,"end":8712.288,"text":"那請問一下在您認為說必須要重新開機第一個你是認為現在司法院審理這些相關的案件他們不夠專業還是不夠到位第二個您認為如果成立了這個軍法的法庭是真的可以去保障司法的人權嗎"},{"start":8714.183,"end":8730.779,"text":"我想這個問題我之前已經回答多次了就是說現在軍審法並沒有完全廢除這個軍事審判包括在戰時的時候呢要馬上恢復軍事審判那因為從那現在是戰時呢還是準戰爭狀態嗎還是即將進入戰爭狀態呢但是委員跟委員報告"},{"start":8737.785,"end":8758.116,"text":"我們要做任何的一個完整的一個準備如果說今天按照現在這個狀況我們從102年廢除了軍事審判制度之後現在所有軍事審判的量能是完全喪失了"},{"start":8759.056,"end":8780.224,"text":"那不管我們以後會面對什麼樣子的一個挑戰我們的軍事審判在喪失功能的情況之下要一夕之間要能夠恢復這是一件不可能的事情所以我們認為應該要在平時維持一定的量能所以我們將它限縮在陸海公軍所以你會不會認為當年你說絕對不允許復必因為當年也有可能任何的狀況"},{"start":8786.727,"end":8795.396,"text":"也有可能進入戰時啊對不對也有可能能量不足啊而當時你的立場是絕對不允許軍法復辟那我現在要請教部長的是你說現在要做一個準備這個準備是準備進入戰時的一個狀態嗎因為你剛剛講得非常清楚軍法復辟"},{"start":8808.77,"end":8833.417,"text":"法庭從來沒有審判並沒有被廢除但是非常明確的在暫時的時候要恢復軍閥審判所以這個準備是為了作戰而準備的嗎跟委員報告能不能讓我報告兩點就好了第一點任何國軍在做備戰的部分都是要來因應未來可能在台海地區發生的衝突我想這是國防部的義務"},{"start":8834.881,"end":8850.127,"text":"這是也是光不存在的價值這是第一點我們第二個我們要恢復的軍事審判當然不是回到過去被人詬病的軍事審判我們要符合這一個政黨法律程序原則跟公平法院設計的"},{"start":8852.808,"end":8858.23,"text":"一個新的軍事審判制度這樣的一個軍事審判制度是一個獨立的因為即便在102年的時候你去問當時的國防部長難道他不做作戰的準備嗎當時102年你去問當時的國防部長難道他說他完全不做作戰的準備嗎第二個你認為現在的軍事法庭一定不像以前的詬病的軍事法庭"},{"start":8876.997,"end":8901.696,"text":"但是大家也知道 恢復軍事法庭之後 包含你還有檢察署吧 對不對所以我們現在 對不對 也就檢察署 還有檢院都在你國防部底下也有很多人會質疑 那這樣能不能夠完全的去保障司法人權所以我要講的就是說 時空環境變了 也許你換了位子 也換了腦袋"},{"start":8903.217,"end":8905.358,"text":"但是我覺得從一個反走過必留下痕跡如果你現在的你的理由是正確的並不代表102年這些理由通通不存在我剛剛就講過嘛就是你在講說你要做作戰準備"},{"start":8919.904,"end":8923.106,"text":"你五年前十年前所有的國防部長所有的一線的我們的這個關閉弟兄也都在做作戰的準備難道他們當時都是在睡覺嗎不可能所以我覺得現在要恢復軍事審判你們還是要跟社會大眾要有一定的溝通和對話而不是只是說我們現在就是變成是好像反正處處是共諜"},{"start":8945.777,"end":8949.86,"text":"然後我們現役軍人 每個人可能都會泄密 每個人都會通敵我們要講的是在軍中的文化 其實我們最擔心的就是莫名其妙的入人於罪而採取了軍事法庭之後 而使得在他的司法人權沒有受到一定的尊重 最後造成冤獄"},{"start":8970.635,"end":8975.521,"text":"所以我覺得這點是非常非常重要的所以當你講說所謂的重新開機的時候也請你要拜託你們要跟社會要有一定的對話那另外我時間到了但是我還是要特別提到就說在我可以先回答這個問題嗎"},{"start":8989.218,"end":9009.912,"text":"你可以用書面我不浪費大家時間我簡單回答我們要設軍事懷孕組織法我們要設軍事檢查組織法我們要設獨立的人事審議委員會這是在過去都沒有的那我們所要重新開機的一定會是跟過去所被人所詬病的軍事審判制度是不一樣那我們一定會重視這一個真實的發現跟這個軍機的維護的這個雙重的要求"},{"start":9015.517,"end":9021.433,"text":"我希望我們在草案提出來以後我們也會跟社會做一個充分的溝通"},{"start":9022.561,"end":9048.343,"text":"這是必須的那另外我花一點點時間就是我們的這個在我們的軍品裡面紅色供應鏈事實上是一直層出不窮不能一方面你在抗中然後動不動就丟人家是中共同路人但是在我們的軍事的相關的軍品裡面一而再 二而三的"},{"start":9049.523,"end":9057.429,"text":"發現紅色供應鏈的滲透這裡面像火箭推進劑的原料這個我也曾經質疑那是在部長擔任部長之前我也曾經質疑現在連戰鬥背心也有然後我們馬文君委員也提到了我們的無人機長期也去使用中國的這些零件這些部分請國防部應該提出相關的辦法而不是三不五時就會報"},{"start":9078.442,"end":9082.905,"text":"出來就報出來有這些相關的這些事件而我們會看到相關單位也沒有什麼懲處啊所以我們的委員才會一直會接到不同的懲請所以這個部分是不是請國防就是請國防部也給我們一個就是書面的一個資料書面的說法"},{"start":9101.215,"end":9102.716,"text":"針對要怎麼樣切斷紅色供應鏈避免紅色供應鏈滲透我們的軍品你們必須要有一個確切的一個做法包含怎麼樣去懲處 怎麼樣會去杜絕 可不可以"},{"start":9120.052,"end":9140.205,"text":"簡單兩點 第一點 確定 確確的要防止這個飛鴻的供應鏈一定要在台灣的本土產生出自我的產能而且要將所有的關鍵零組件都在台灣製造我想這個才是根本之道第二個 我們很多事情都是在我們驗收的階段就發現"},{"start":9141.286,"end":9166.804,"text":"而這些驗收階段發現之後我們就來排除所以呢結論就是說建立一個非紅的供應鏈的根本之道就是以無人機來講我們一定要在建立我們自主的產能這個在平時跟在暫時都是有需要的好我請那個因為我們不要浪費大家時間如果可以的話就書面來提供我們資料好不好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":9169.417,"end":9184.473,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 部長請回接下來有請馬文君委員上台質詢接下來主席麻煩請部長有請部長"},{"start":9193.533,"end":9194.513,"text":"今天我們大概有非常多的委員在討論不過面相不太一樣我們現在還是針對我們國防部的解凍案"},{"start":9208.8,"end":9212.942,"text":"在討論可是我想要特別提出一個案例我想部長可以考量看看為什麼我們常常在指責委員在煽動預算的時候是黨國防預算可是我們卻讓一樣的事情不斷不斷每年在預算執行的過程當中不斷的發生而且耗費浪費我們非常多的一個國防資源我們看軍博館"},{"start":9236.656,"end":9249.749,"text":"軍博館這個部分從原來他本來是要蓋軍事博物館還有國軍英雄館兩個那時候編列預算大概有17億餘元這個預計在110年到112年就要完成的後來國軍英雄館因為他訴訟的關係後來沒有去"},{"start":9262,"end":9269.729,"text":"增加就是要增建這個部分就只有軍博館軍博館從17億餘元變成32億餘元後來又增加到46億2現在又變成54億"},{"start":9277.037,"end":9294.952,"text":"到現在本來一百一十二年要完成的到現在已經一百一十四年了他還沒有辦法完成而且他的過程非常離譜今天這樣的一個建築物老實說他跟很多的博物館或者包括像喜美博物館民間的還包括像台中的這個台中這個叫"},{"start":9298.835,"end":9308.319,"text":"是歌劇院 其實他們都是非常特殊的甚至他的建築體本身其實也不太一樣可是他們的造價 而且他們的騎乘都非常的順暢可是我們的軍博館 剛剛我提到的從17億多到現在變成54億54億多已經增加了三倍 到現在還做不好"},{"start":9322.245,"end":9329.11,"text":"部長,您知道這是什麼原因嗎?而且更離譜的是在111年的時候,這個機裝承載能力不足,要補強然後在第二次113年,也就是去年1月的時候,它的結構設計強度不足"},{"start":9342.116,"end":9362.876,"text":"然後在去年8月又發生維木牆、抗風樑柱要補牆這三個變更是國防部甲方要求的嗎部長有掌握這個嗎我想我現在手上沒有相關的這個詳細的資料那我想我會後再跟委員做個報告"},{"start":9363.868,"end":9372.794,"text":"部長我想在這裡談因為這個部分我們從好幾年前我們就已經提出來了這個部分比較離譜的像它第一次變更的時候機裝承載力不足它是什麼狀況廠商蓋到二樓的時候才發現它的樓地板如果放上去因為它下面的柱子太少它沒有辦法承載所以二樓樓地板如果蓋了以後它沒有辦法放東西我們這個叫軍博館"},{"start":9391.647,"end":9414.38,"text":"它二樓如果按照這樣的一個設計還沒有辦法放東西所以我們追加了大概一千三百多萬然後讓它展延三十天然後第二次在去年它的又變更設計一次它是怎麼樣牆面太大它的支撐力不足所以要補牆剛構"},{"start":9417.419,"end":9424.002,"text":"同時在去年第三次的變更維木牆抗風樑柱補牆就是頂樓的玻璃維木它的抗風能力不足又做了樑柱補牆部長您剛剛有聽到我說明的這三次補牆的原因這是什麼專管公司這是什麼設計單位"},{"start":9440.046,"end":9444.311,"text":"他們現在總共追加了大概又8000多萬我們從剛剛我念的17億還有32億46億到後來54億現在又8000萬而且他展延天數大概300多天幾乎又要一年部長您怎麼看"},{"start":9459.214,"end":9478.025,"text":"我的了解是有一部分是行政院認為我們原來的這個因為軍火管的設置不易所以要求我們這個整個量體要增加因此教育不好,你要不要說明一下"},{"start":9480.939,"end":9499.457,"text":"委員好 我是志願司司長那之前因為我是在政務辦公室副主任所以對這個案子稍微有點了解一開始17億的那個部分是因為那時候我們設計的大概是兩層樓高這樣一個建築量體那後來在行政院開會的時候行政院覺得在這個地段做這樣子的設計效益不足所以請我們再重新考量"},{"start":9500.137,"end":9515.056,"text":"所以後來我們到加到了七層樓所以有一個會有一個這樣經費的一個增加而且後來因為是疫情的關係那所以我們幾次的一個招標都沒有很順利那後來也是行政院工程會把當初那時候所有行政院的重大工程沒關係你不要再說免這個部分"},{"start":9515.797,"end":9521.219,"text":"那個金額的調整那個已經有討論過我現在說的是你三次的變更不會太離譜嗎我們在過去沒有專管公司的時候甚至你怎麼會設計到你的樑柱的支撐力不足你明明蓋到七樓然後它的那個二樓的樓地板蓋下去整個會塌下來這是什麼設計結果你的罰則是多少我們在第一次它的那個集裝承載能力不足"},{"start":9545.007,"end":9553.754,"text":"要補強的時候我們追加一千三百萬可是他計罰的金額是七十七萬七千元第二次優做結構補強的時候他總共追加一千六百萬展延了天數一百一十六天他罰了兩百二十七萬第三次優做了變更設計因為他的玻璃帷幕太重他沒有辦法承載"},{"start":9572.009,"end":9575.212,"text":"所以我們又追加了5,446萬,展延天數172天,可是它只罰了專管6萬塊在我們又追加了8千萬的情況之下,而且展延了300多天我們對這個相關的,不管設計單位、專管單位,總共罰了300多萬,可是我們又追加了8千多萬"},{"start":9594.606,"end":9619.822,"text":"國防部完全任人宰割從我們剛開始說的你設計到七層樓的時候你即時面臨到疫情民間沒有蓋房子嗎我們所有的公共工廠沒有在做嗎可是你可以不斷不斷的增加你是增加倍數耶我們的原物料增加的或者人工的增加其實它都是有一些相關的資料"},{"start":9621.209,"end":9637.387,"text":"都是幾成幾成在增加 可是你是倍數在增加你現在 部長您是法律的專家像這樣子的計法 我們是可以的嗎而且這麼剛好 他計法的金額就剛好是我們的務酬款八千萬你就剛好把務酬款八千萬 也剛好把它用光了"},{"start":9642.572,"end":9656.793,"text":"這就是它增加的部分這個到底是營造商跟我們的專管公司設計單位他們協調的結果還是合作的結果他們只被罰了三百多萬可是它增加八千多萬這個問題出在哪裡"},{"start":9662.216,"end":9690.177,"text":"報告委員其實每次的變更設計在設計建造的部分還有專管的部分我們的確都有計法那因為計法收限於20%的上限所以它那個金額的確可能很難達到一個達到一個預期那這個部分其實我們每個月或是每兩週每週我們都有人在現場跟他們開會也希望能夠補強這個部分那如果將來對國防部的確造成了很多實質上的損失其實我們也不排除最後"},{"start":9690.757,"end":9718.525,"text":"工程完成以後還有一個求償的一個措施這不是笑話嗎部長今天他已經連續三次的變更設計我說他不斷不斷的加價以外他現在要把我們的務求款剛好八千萬他就剛好設計也是增加八千萬這個部分請調查清楚而且不要任意解凍今天如果可以從十七億多一直增加到五十四億現在又要再增加八千萬"},{"start":9719.705,"end":9726.948,"text":"你的那個 承載力不足 柱子不夠我們本來設計呢 那時候到我們去看的時候說 哇 這是挑高的然後我們上面要像那個 有一些大家看過那個自然博物館上面掛恐龍骨骼的那個部分他要把我們本來現在放在外面的飛機要掛到那個上面 現在能掛嗎?"},{"start":9740.493,"end":9763.071,"text":"光是二樓樓地板放上去都會垮下來你還敢掛這樣這麼重的飛機嗎那時候跟我們說你為什麼要挑高因為看起來會比較可能比較宏偉而且它可以四面都沒有那麼多的柱子它的空間很大結果你現在因為承載力不足你增加了很多的柱子那現在它變成什麼樣子"},{"start":9764.552,"end":9769.056,"text":"這個部分我們要求國防部一定要徹查尤其這個部分我們對廠商完全沒有沒有辦法去計法以外總共罰300萬可是我們讓他不斷不斷的增加這麼高的預算而且我們用的很多的一大部分的錢是基金基金是用了就沒了結果你讓他這樣子把錢花掉部長這個部分你們會有什麼樣的一個做法"},{"start":9792.514,"end":9814.802,"text":"我想我會下去之後我會進行一個徹底的了解好不好好這個部分我們要求要有一個做法然後不要再把那個解凍案送出來你如果沒有一個解決的方案之前浪費民脂民膏然後還可以一直叫我們解凍這樣完全沒有辦法對國人交代那今天也有委員在"},{"start":9816.043,"end":9831.917,"text":"詢問我們國防部所屬院校今年招生的狀況女生的錄取率增高非常多那本席請國防部提供近八年國軍各基礎院校各年度招生數錄取數以及醫生二後他的留營數"},{"start":9833.615,"end":9855.127,"text":"就是你除了這些錄取人數以外一年級升二年級以後他留下來繼續念的到底有多少人數包括三軍我們的三軍的一個三軍院校國防大學各學院還有空軍航院技術學院陸軍專科學校等等請提供相關的數據資料給委員會好不好好謝謝"},{"start":9863.422,"end":9867.183,"text":"好 謝謝馬委員 部長請回接下來有請陳冠廷委員上台質詢我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":9890.172,"end":9905.172,"text":"部長好,部長我最近常看到在各個媒體裡面有提到說,如果是在衝突的時候,那會陷入一個沒有秩序的狀況,那他們就要拿著他們被配發的武器,要去做什麼事或做什麼事。"},{"start":9906.013,"end":9920.809,"text":"我想藉由這個質詢的平台要跟大家說如果有發生武力衝突的時候我們的司法制度照樣運行我們的社會制度一樣在運行我們要盡所有的可能性確保說在衝突的時間"},{"start":9922.25,"end":9949.989,"text":"非軍事的地方能夠照往常一樣有秩序在衝突期間的所有的罪行會被追訴在衝突期間的所有罪行會被起訴也會受到懲治那在軍人的部分因為我們已經有新的這個軍法的制度引進所以包含軍禁還有所有的這些秩序都能夠被有效的維持部長我這樣子的理解對不對呃我想呃我們"},{"start":9952.339,"end":9978.073,"text":"這是一個韌性這是一個韌性我們希望能夠保有這樣的一個韌性這是我們的目標我相信我們也一定會做到就像烏克蘭一樣儘管面臨俄羅斯的這樣子大他們數倍的攻擊襲擊但他們國內的社會秩序一樣穩定所有的刑事責任不會因為在戰爭之中就會被忘記那一樣會被追溯"},{"start":9978.553,"end":9995.534,"text":"那我相信我們台灣未來也有這樣的韌性所以如果有國人同胞有這樣的擔憂的話那我可以在這邊跟大家說包含國防部包含內政部包含我們的所有司法單位只要在衝突的期間的所有事情都一樣會被追究那是第一個部分"},{"start":9995.874,"end":10021.779,"text":"那第二部分我想要針對G-SOMIA或者是情報相關的部分來請教一下部長部長您知道現在行政院在5月29號大概會把擴大特殊查核的部分應該會有出爐我認為這是我們從去年開始不斷在強調安全核可的這一個擴大範圍也好或者是針對這個安全的部分的討論的一個很好的一個"},{"start":10023.18,"end":10038.38,"text":"應該說一個回饋就是說這一年半來那我們希望說至少是在安全背景查核上面那行政院總算也是第一個把這樣子的擴大那我想請教一下為什麼講G-SOMIA的部分是因為"},{"start":10039.699,"end":10057.367,"text":"日非兩國在今年大家看到在這個抗中的部分有啟動這個軍事情報分享的協商我想請教部長我們有沒有可能跟日本或者是跟菲律賓來有類似這樣子的討論"},{"start":10061.912,"end":10086.389,"text":"我只能夠說我們有這樣的期待那至於詳細的情況我想不適宜在公開的場合做一個說明那怎麼樣才可以滿足這樣子的期待我想首先反求諸己就是說我們國家內部的安全的這個自己的保密或者是防諜的狀況也沒有辦法符合情報交換的基準"},{"start":10087.029,"end":10104.189,"text":"不然的話我們得到最新的資訊假如也被洩露出去的話那我們就不但沒有資格進入G15秒甚至可能會傷害到我們的盟邦所以為什麼我們說我們的安全核可的這個機制它必須是要盡快來做一個有一個統一的規範"},{"start":10105.931,"end":10128.686,"text":"那之前我有請教過部長說因為我們現在在各個不同的政府部門因為如果要統一的規範的話那至少要有一個基準的單位那法務部廉政署的政風室在各個的部門不管的哪一個行政機關基本上都是他們的存在是不是由這個廉政署下轄的這些政風室來去跟"},{"start":10129.646,"end":10153.205,"text":"每一個單位因為每一個單位他有自己知道說他會接觸什麼樣的密等哪些東西是敏感的來去做一個完整的匡列也就是說有法務部做匡列會不會是一個未來做一個統一標準的一個好的開始因為部長你是有法律專精所以想請教你覺得這是不是一個好的辦法但國安局他沒有辦法像這個法務部一樣有這麼綿密的這個系統"},{"start":10156.93,"end":10182.392,"text":"我想有關於跟其他國家從事任何的這樣子的一些交流都涉及到三個層面,一個就是人員的安全查核第二個是治安的等級的要求第三個呢,就是雙方的通聯機制要有一個機密的保持這個三個部分,我想我們"},{"start":10185.403,"end":10197.755,"text":"都會努力來達成這樣子的一個水平然後來從事這樣子的一個跟其他國家從事相關的一些交流"},{"start":10200.471,"end":10216.382,"text":"部長我剛剛問說保護部、廉政署、陣容室在各個行政機關的這個部分是不是由他們做匡列這個部分您覺得怎麼樣因為畢竟部長有法律的專才那以及當過國安會的秘書長對整體的"},{"start":10218.524,"end":10234.223,"text":"我們現在講的一個是一個機構institution我們希望創造一個有機構性的一個方式來去匡列到底哪些人需要被委員那意思是說由他們做一個有關安全查核的一個"},{"start":10235.484,"end":10256.435,"text":"框架嗎 還是 框裂就是哪些人因為他會接觸到密等他必須要被框裂那這方面是跟那一個所屬機關因為你說用人機關嘛是有在平行的聯繫因為他們就在那一個局處啊所以是不是由他們跟用人的機關來去做框裂這樣是不是就符合兩方面所需"},{"start":10257.775,"end":10281.105,"text":"我想就行政院的部分有誰來做這樣子的一個哪些人應該要列入或哪些應該要從事怎麼樣的一個查核包括特殊查核或者是一般的查核等等這些我想我們會依照行政院的要求來進行"},{"start":10283.444,"end":10307.435,"text":"OK 好 部長沒有回答我的問題不過沒有關係我想這也 我下次再問所屬機關好了 我去問法務部可能會比較有因為我的了解就是說現在在做這個部分在行政部門是這個法務部的調查局在做那我的了解是我之所以會問這個問題是因為我們有跟行政院討論那他們說或許是可以從法務部"},{"start":10309.396,"end":10329.756,"text":"就是廉政署下面的政公司去做一個初步的開始那我今天問部長不是說要問到誰我只想說因為你過去有法律的經驗還有國安會秘書長你可能可以重覽全部的不同的單位所以我才說你覺得這個建議是好還是不好法務部的廉政署也好"},{"start":10331.778,"end":10346.839,"text":"或者甚至到法務部政府,我覺得法務部廉政署應該就可以,他可以做一個框架性的要求但實際執行的層面,如果要到法務部的調查局的話,那法務部調查局的能量必須要做大幅的擴充"},{"start":10348.857,"end":10377.442,"text":"匡列跟執行是兩個不一樣的事情所以我現在講的是要執行當然部長你說要可能要做大幅度的擴充沒辦法就是我們現在面臨的困境嘛所以說很多人都會說你看哪邊又有供點可是不是啊就是表示說我們現在有機制可以抓到這些人那我們現在要做的就是說除了有機制抓到這些人之後我們制度化的讓我們能夠把這些人這個神之以法的可能性再增到最高嘛"},{"start":10377.802,"end":10397.104,"text":"因為我們現在面臨的威脅跟十年前又不一樣了所以我們才講到這件事情不過沒關係我的時間已經用完了那我還是希望說部長你那邊如果有建議的話我們這邊也想要做一個統整就是說這樣的方式是好的嗎還是你們有不同的意見那我們把它匡列進來我們來想一個更好的方式好不好"},{"start":10397.324,"end":10410.121,"text":"因為我們國防部本身已經有制定就是說有關涉密的一個程度有不同的查核班而不是以階級所以我想我們的意見可以提供給行政院做一個參考"},{"start":10411.021,"end":10428.956,"text":"好因為我現在看到的是它是擴大啦擴大可是它那個擴大的理由只是為了擴大而擴大的話那有點可惜那包含它所知道的資訊跟它要用的資訊跟用人單位的資訊做一個整合嘛就是除了鎖鑰匙跟你需不需要在那個地點這個我"},{"start":10430.817,"end":10448.99,"text":"沒關係我們之後再來討論本來我還是想要做我們是依照美方相關的做法來律定這個我們現在相關的辦法那我們一定會提供給行政院做參考很好那就直接我認為我們不需要重新發明輪值對方怎麼做我們可以直接採信不然的話我們怎麼加入這些其他的情報的存入"},{"start":10449.983,"end":10465.097,"text":"用一樣的方式就好了我們就不用重新再搭配也是可以的就直接使用這樣的方式那這樣的話我們就不用在各種不同的狀況然後在各個不同的人員上面又同時試行不同的狀況我覺得這樣不一定好好 謝謝"},{"start":10468.219,"end":10489.156,"text":"好 謝謝冠廷委員 部長請回接下來有請蘇清泉委員上台質詢蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在那已登記質詢的委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束那本日會議有林益君委員跟蘇清泉委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":10491.458,"end":10516.016,"text":"委員書面及口頭諮詢為其答覆的部分要求補充資料者再請國防部提供有約定期限者就從其鎖定我們接下來要進行討論事項今天有49案討論事項第一項及第二項處理國防部主管的預算凍結提出專案報告並經同意後 使得動之有兩案就是剛剛那兩案"},{"start":10516.896,"end":10542.361,"text":"國防部剛才已作出專案報告請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意齁好那同意動之那我們就提報院會那接下來有剩下的有47案齁就是這個國防部主管的預算凍結案中提出書面報告並經同意後使得動之共47案國防部也將書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意齁"},{"start":10545.56,"end":10549.835,"text":"好 均同意動之那我們就提報院會本日會議到此結束散會"}]}},{"id":"161932","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161932","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40aa19cc00b50f8266a330f39aabc08752557314f5ee426dfd78ad6648bb28df2475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:15:24 - 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主席請教彭部長部長時間有限姚委員好部長好部長在520前夕貴部有召開記者會就向國人報告環境部過去一年的成果那"},{"start":29.747,"end":41.592,"text":"記者會的部分我來問一下,現在由環境部主導的抗高溫對策聯盟即將要成立你們要負責統合各部會的相關事務"},{"start":49.015,"end":66.233,"text":"包括勞動部提出戶外工作的防護措施衛福部也提高提升弱勢族群的韌性經濟部則針對產業衝擊等等都有提供一些相關的資料給你們我請問一下這個對抗"},{"start":70.29,"end":90.993,"text":"抗高溫對策聯盟實際上的運作模式以及政策目標到底是什麼因為我來自民間我看到我們政府面對那種極端天氣的調適我必須說很多的報告書但是真實的作為像國際的調適都要有一些資金有一些行動可是我們"},{"start":91.894,"end":106.661,"text":"比較少那我們就這次用一個方式就是說我們實際上來操作假設高溫一個極端天氣像颱風一樣我們政府怎麼去面對我們從實際上的經驗找出來一個方式然後我們再把整個方式把它具體化"},{"start":107.821,"end":126.593,"text":"這個其實也跨部會然後也結合了民間的產業還有各行各業一起來了解還有地方政府我們就希望說我們今年先來把一個高溫一個事件超過38度等等的當成一個颱風來應變之後我們再找出一些方案希望明年之後把它寫成一些規範然後就變成一個政策"},{"start":127.878,"end":150.131,"text":"副長你的想法本席其實是非常贊同就是說包括公部門花了太多時間在做研究資料可是實際的動作作為太少這個我覺得要改變這種思維啦就是盡可能的不要花太多時間在資料的"},{"start":152.192,"end":177.117,"text":"當然這部分也很重要,可是不能只做到這一部分就沒有其他的希望我們有關抗高溫對策聯盟可以實際運作的好也希望明年真的可以逐年的把它有一部分的措施出來我之前就有倡議過"},{"start":179.659,"end":207.925,"text":"有關社福身份家庭的節能家電的補助所以我也看到我們這個政策平台有關衛福部的部分就是提升弱勢族群的韌性我想要請教一下部長雖然這個是衛福部跟經濟部的主管業務那你負責平台我想要請問一下就是說"},{"start":210.537,"end":221.974,"text":"假如衛福部針對或者是我這樣子問好了就是部長覺得衛福部是不是應該要針對有社福"},{"start":223.146,"end":247.637,"text":"身份的家庭提供更多節能家電的喚醒補助報告委員其實這有幾個部分第一個是我們發現就是說委員你之前提醒我們的就是說有一些比較弱勢的族群他不可能去買節能家電因為他要花一筆錢那當然他就不想開冷氣或是他如果要開冷氣他其實就要花出更多的成本比我們來得多"},{"start":248.677,"end":276.267,"text":"所以基本上但是政府的預算又會又有限我不能夠呃例如說收入多少我就補助更多所以我們現在呢改變一個做法第一個是我們跟內政部合作去撈數據撈數據就是說到底幾個弱勢的或是獨居老人例如說我們現在針對獨居的老人為主先先他來做來試辦那如果找到這個老人之後那就衛福部幫我們去找到那個老人然後幫忙看能不能需要補助那這個補助呢就會從這個地方政府"},{"start":276.647,"end":294.622,"text":"因為地方政府有的補助的錢還蠻多的那有的是能源署那邊那他們呢就會對於例如說冷氣像有些地方政府可以補助一兩萬塊的可以換一台冷氣所以我們先由這種方式示範來處理但是這個最源頭還是要找到那個人啊所以要去算要找到人也要找到財源嘛對對對"},{"start":296.944,"end":313.882,"text":"不過這個就是逐步來做因為弱勢家庭的家電太換了除了有關抗高溫以外其實它也有老舊電器的風險所以這個希望部長能夠"},{"start":316.545,"end":328.244,"text":"落實這個平台跟跨部會我今天只是講到因為我之前就有講過社福家庭的家電補助所以就用這個跟部長做個探討"},{"start":329.537,"end":349.794,"text":"部長我在5月中旬環境部也發表了空氣品質白皮書當中有42項未來的行動方案要在未來10年裡面改善我國的空氣品質那我"},{"start":351.922,"end":376.384,"text":"白皮書裡面提到的議題之一就是重視兒少的呼吸權這個當然很重要精進校園周圍的空汙管理我想請問一下學童的呼吸率跟代謝機能跟成人都不同所以他們是更需要被保護的一群"},{"start":377.489,"end":393.86,"text":"那空品區呢就是一定的就是汽機車假如沒有經過一定的檢驗以後是不能進去的對不對在校園的500公尺以內怎麼管制啊"},{"start":398.711,"end":411.223,"text":"這個齁在那個有些縣市我不用講哪個縣市罰蠻多的例如說AutoBike沒有去電檢他就不能進去會開罰的那他們是用人力還是用那個車牌辨識車牌辨識對對對是"},{"start":417.386,"end":438.783,"text":"因為每一部車子它有沒有做過訂檢我知道那它是怎麼繞出來的就從放在學校的附近然後經過在某些時間經過的話那它就會抓到了然後那個地方環保局就會開罰所以它是活動式的類似固定式應該固定式一台幾十萬塊"},{"start":440.285,"end":457.042,"text":"一台幾十萬塊所以不是像交通部那種科技執法的機器這也算是一種科技執法對 可是不是像警政署因為現在就是各都會"},{"start":459.04,"end":474.196,"text":"車流比較多的路口都會有科技執法那個很貴我還以為你們是用我們沒有用到那麼貴大概幾十萬因為我也擔心因為這個概念是很好的"},{"start":474.836,"end":486.084,"text":"可是怎麼執行總是要有辦法執行目前報告委員有些縣市有這樣做發滿多的我覺得部長應該鼓勵這些縣市假如說執行花費的機器的設備"},{"start":499.854,"end":507.022,"text":"經費不是很高 應該要大量使用這個才能夠落實我們空瓶區的構想"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1016,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時15分）謝謝主席。主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，在520前夕，貴部有召開記者會向國人報告環境部過去一年的成果，就記者會的部分，我來問一下，現在由環境部主導的抗高溫對策聯盟即將要成立，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：你們要負責統合各部會的相關事務。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：包括勞動部提出了戶外工作的防護措施，衛福部也提升弱勢族群的韌性，經濟部則針對產業衝擊等等，都有提供一些相關的資料給你們。我請問一下，這個抗高溫對策聯盟實際上的運作模式以及政策目標到底是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我來自民間，我看到我們政府面對極端天氣的調適，我必須說報告書很多啦，但是真實的作為，像國際的調適都要有些資金、有些行動，可是我們比較少，我們這次就用一個方式，就是我們實際上來操作，假設高溫、一個極端天氣，像颱風一樣，我們政府怎麼去面對，我們從實際上的經驗找出來一個方式，我們再把整個方式具體化，這個是跨部會，也結合民間產業還有各行各業一起來了解，還有地方政府，我們希望，我們今年先來把一個高溫事件、超過38度等等的狀況當成颱風來應變，之後再找出一些方案，希望明年之後把它寫成一些規範，然後就變成一個政策。"],["楊委員曜：部長，你的想法本席其實是非常贊同，就是政府公部門花了太多時間在做研究資料，可是實際的動作、作為太少，我覺得要改變這種思維，儘可能不要花太多時間在資料的研究，當然這部分也很重要，可是不能只做到這部分，而沒有其他的，希望我們的抗高溫對策聯盟可以實際運作的好，也希望明年真的可以，就是逐年有一部分的措施出來。","因為我之前就有倡議過有關社福身分家庭的節能家電補助，我也看到相關政策平臺，有關衛福部的部分就是提升弱勢族群的韌性，我想要請教一下部長，雖然這是衛福部跟經濟部的主管業務，你負責平臺，我想要請問一下，部長覺得衛福部是不是應該要針對有社福身分的家庭提供更多節能家電的換新補助？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這有幾個部分，第一個是我們發現，委員你之前提醒我們的，就是有一些比較弱勢的族群不可能去買節能家電，因為他要花一筆錢，當然他就不想開冷氣，或是如果要開冷氣，他其實就要花更多的成本，比我們來得多。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["彭部長啓明：但是政府的預算又有限，不能夠說收入多少就補助更多，所以我們現在改變作法，第一個是我們跟內政部合作去撈數據，就是到底有多少弱勢或是獨居老人，例如我們現在針對獨居老人為主，先來試辦，找到這些老人的數據之後，就請衛福部幫我們去找這些老人，然後幫忙看是不是需要補助，那這個補助就會從地方政府，因為地方政府有些補助的錢還滿多的，那有的是能源署那邊，他們就會對於例如冷氣，像有些地方政府可以補助一、兩萬塊換一臺冷氣，所以我們先用這種方式試辦來處理，但是這個最源頭還是要找到那個人，所以要去算。"],["楊委員曜：要找到人也要找到財源，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對！"],["楊委員曜：不過這個就是逐步來做，因為弱勢家庭的家電汰換除了有關抗高溫以外，其實也有老舊電器的風險，所以希望部長能夠落實這個平臺跟跨部會合作，因為我之前就有講過社福家庭的家電補助，所以我今天就用這個議題跟部長做探討。","部長，5月中旬環境部也發表了空氣品質白皮書，當中有42項未來行動方案要在未來10年裡面改善我國的空氣品質，白皮書裡面提到的議題之一就是重視兒少的呼吸權，這個當然很重要，精進校園周圍的空污管理。我想請問一下，因為學童的呼吸率與代謝機能跟成人都不同，所以他們是更需要被保護的一群，關於空品區，汽機車假如沒有經過一定的檢驗，以後是不能進去的，對不對？在校園的500公尺以內。"],["彭部長啓明：對！"],["楊委員曜：怎麼管制啊？"],["彭部長啓明：這在有些縣市罰滿多的，我不用講哪個縣市，例如摩托車沒有定檢就不能進去，會開罰。"],["楊委員曜：那他們是用人力還是？"],["彭部長啓明：用車牌辨識。"],["楊委員曜：車牌辨識？"],["彭部長啓明：對！"],["楊委員曜：是……"],["彭部長啓明：因為每一部車子有沒有做過定檢……"],["楊委員曜：我知道！那他是怎麼怎麼撈出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：放在學校的附近，在某些時間經過的話就會抓到，然後地方環保局就會開罰。"],["楊委員曜：所以它是活動式的，類似……"],["彭部長啓明：應該是固定式的，一臺幾十萬塊。"],["楊委員曜：一臺幾十萬塊！"],["彭部長啓明：對！"],["楊委員曜：所以不是像交通部那種科技執法的機器？"],["彭部長啓明：這也算是一種科技執法。"],["楊委員曜：對，但不是像警政署，因為現在車流比較多的路口都會有科技執法，那個很貴，我還以為你們是用……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我們沒有用到那麼貴的。"],["楊委員曜：沒有喔。"],["彭部長啓明：大概幾十萬。"],["楊委員曜：因為我也擔心，這個概念是很好的，可是怎麼執行？總是要有辦法執行嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，目前有些縣市有這樣做，罰滿多的。"],["楊委員曜：那我覺得部長應該鼓勵這一些縣市，假如儀器設備的經費不是很高，應該要大量使用，這樣才能夠落實我們空品區的構想，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好！"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝部長。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員廖偉翔、涂權吉所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。現在作以下決議：第一、報告及詢答完畢。第二，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161931","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161931","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a41fdc7e2924e5a5e330f39aabc08752557314f5ee426dfd731f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:08:52 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麻煩請找環境部長來 請部長"},{"start":11.863,"end":34.715,"text":"業務員好部長好因為我跟你講現在大家都很關心人員的問題嘛那因為飛河之後到底空污會不會變比較嚴重大家都很關心那我其實是蠻期許環境博士站在市民的角度民眾的角度去真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估然後跟外界做解釋盡量不要去做台電的化妝師"},{"start":35.856,"end":56.594,"text":"好 那這個第一個 就是部長你好像上個禮拜有提到說我們現在PM2.5是12.8微克嘛比很多國際 在亞洲是僅次於日本我必須說 委包委員其實還有一個國家新加坡啦但是新加坡因為它在熱帶每天下雨跟我們日韓或是我們東亞的國家比較不一樣我沒有把它算進去部長你這個比較基礎是什麼"},{"start":58.275,"end":81.466,"text":"我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站 那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣 他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克 你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右"},{"start":81.986,"end":97.716,"text":"8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方"},{"start":99.037,"end":112.494,"text":"的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像金門那邊就比較差"},{"start":113.26,"end":127.53,"text":"所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9啊就大於你所公布的平均12.8"},{"start":129.091,"end":156.137,"text":"所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦對這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那這個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為非核家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境他PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義"},{"start":157.137,"end":171.692,"text":"我只是覺得如果說環境部要公佈類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公佈我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠"},{"start":173.257,"end":199.623,"text":"大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言"},{"start":200.303,"end":228.878,"text":"否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對 報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說"},{"start":229.418,"end":248.609,"text":"還要再去做分配但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加"},{"start":249.329,"end":271.931,"text":"那飛河之後 如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話 氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下那沒有新的發電方式"},{"start":273.132,"end":298.362,"text":"本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好"},{"start":299.402,"end":319.906,"text":"我覺得不能這樣耶那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到十二點八那其實這個十二點八是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少嘛絕對不是只有一個說燃煤發電等等的影響因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有"},{"start":326.447,"end":346.517,"text":"也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少P2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的藍莓機組重新拿出來的藍莓沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航喔沒有護航最好"},{"start":347.117,"end":374.757,"text":"希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAX NAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體涼涼涼涼之後用電量增加"},{"start":375.177,"end":380.742,"text":"如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":976,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時8分）主席，麻煩請環境部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。現在大家都很關心能源的問題，因為非核之後，到底空污會不會變比較嚴重，大家都很關心，我其實是蠻期許環境部是站在市民的角度、民眾的角度，真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估，然後跟外界做解釋，儘量不要去做台電的化妝師。","第一個，部長，你好像是上個禮拜有提到現在PM2.5是12.8微克嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：比很多國際……在亞洲是僅次於日本。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須說其實還有一個國家──新加坡，但是新加坡因為它在熱帶，每天下雨，跟日、韓或是東亞的國情比較不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係。"],["彭部長啓明：我們沒有把它算進去。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你這個比較基礎是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站，那個符合國際的標準。"],["葉委員元之：其他國家的數值是怎麼取得的？"],["彭部長啓明：也是一樣……"],["葉委員元之：在哪裡取得的？"],["彭部長啓明：例如說日本官方網站的報告、韓國……"],["葉委員元之：日本官方網站去年平均一整年是低於12.8微克，其他國家是高於12.8微克，你是這樣算出來的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：日本整個國家平均大概是8左右。"],["葉委員元之：你是從他們的官方網站，一個一個國家去抓的是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，一個一個國家去看。"],["葉委員元之：好。第一個，我必須要講，你用一整年平均12.8微克來做比較，其實沒有什麼意義啦，為什麼？因為全臺灣各個地方的PM2.5數值不一樣，有的高、有的低，你看這是我們今天早上抓的，有的是綠色良好，有的是黃色普通，但像金門那邊就比較差。所以一個平均值對於在臺灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義啊，我舉一個比較嚴重的，例如像仁武區，你看仁武區的PM2.5就是21.9，就大於你所公布的平均12.8，所以我認為環境部還是要說實話啦。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個就像是，例如說委員的平均是多少，這有一個數值，當然有人高有人低嘛，我們平均是可以來做比較的。"],["葉委員元之：臺灣現在因為非核家園火力全開，對於火力全開周邊環境的PM2.5上升一定是有影響的，所以拿一個平均值，你拿花蓮、臺東好山好水去跟會有污染源的地方做平均，沒有意義。我是覺得如果環境部要公布類似報告的話，應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公布，我覺得比較有意義啦，這是第一個建議。","第二個就是有關於硫氧化物，火力發電廠大概是40%排放，這是你們自己的數據，我是依據環境部空氣污染物排放量清冊，你可以看到電力業對於硫氧化物就是貢獻了40.4%，所以並不是空氣污染好像都是什麼其他移動污染源導致，不是，火力發電還是有影響。所以希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言，否則台電會覺得火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊，現在就是這樣啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須澄清說明一下，這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做代表，PM2.5除了直接排放之外，還有衍生性的，例如你說的硫氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢、慢慢地，就是這種懸浮微粒都會造成PM2.5的增加，它都算成是PM2.5，所以我們談空污對人體的影響，就是以PM2.5作為主軸，並不是說還要再去做分類。"],["葉委員元之：但光是PM2.5，我覺得也是要仔細去評估啦，不是說用一個平均數。而且還有一個重點，就是我們之後的用電量會越來越多，不管是AI的發展，或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠，或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車，用電量一定會增加，而非核政策之後，如果新的綠電沒辦法補的話，就我的了解，像光電的發展現在就停滯了，地熱現在還要探鑽，不見得能夠探鑽到大量，氫能的話，其實它只是能夠取代碳排。所以如果在用電量大增的情況之下，沒有新的發電方式，本來應該要退役的燃煤機組不退役，停機，停機之後又復機，未來就真的會火力全開啊，未來火力全開，當然PM2.5就會上升，我不知道環境部有沒有針對這個部分給台電一些建議，跟它說站在環境的角度，它自己要去思考能源配比，而不是好像順著它的話去講火力全開沒關係，反正我們現在看平均PM2.5的數值好像也還好，我覺得不能這樣耶！我覺得不能這樣子。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那天我的報告是說，我們臺灣整個空污狀況，的確從十幾年前的平均二、三十一直降到12.8，其實這個12.8是很努力，但是我們現在空氣裡面有很多的污染源，移動的、生活的等等……"],["葉委員元之：都要減少嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：都要減少，對……"],["葉委員元之：所以不能用這個東西來當作……"],["彭部長啓明：所以絕對不是只有受到燃煤發電的影響。"],["葉委員元之：是啦，因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊，你不能說因為別的地方也都有增加，所以不能只怪台電，不是，而是就發電的這一塊，我們怎麼儘量持續減少PM2.5，我覺得重點應該在這邊，所以環境部應該要去跟台電講，不要讓它覺得好像把一些停機的燃煤機組重新拿出來燃煤沒關係，反正有環境部護航，告訴大家……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我沒有護航喔，沒有護航喔！"],["葉委員元之：沒有護航最好，希望環境部可以大聲把真正的數據公開透明地告訴社會大眾，我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力，跟它講發電方式有很多種，你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種，大家一起為環境而努力啦，希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊。"],["彭部長啓明：所以報告委員，你其實也可以看我們的app，上面可以看到過去這幾天PM2.5的數值是多少，或是可以看到SOx、NOx其實都沒有什麼太大的變化，所以除了那個之外，也要看實際上的……"],["葉委員元之：之後用電量增加，如果燃煤機組火力全開，那就不一定了，所以你要跟他們建議啦，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","接下來請楊委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161930","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161930","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a74090493f1f585e8330f39aabc08752557314f5ee426dfd75ffdedc1b900211e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:55:36 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氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般"},{"start":260.02,"end":273.572,"text":"對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為作一個代表至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主"},{"start":275.313,"end":301.372,"text":"例如說發電業流氧化物大概在4成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表這樣大概有一些概念目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌"},{"start":303.954,"end":320.053,"text":"幫委員因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了那我們希望他們運作的順利之後再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候"},{"start":321.354,"end":348.679,"text":"他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後所以今年大概沒機會會會會我們今年一定會做一定會做OK好好謝謝"},{"start":349.739,"end":378.648,"text":"那我覺得就是說之所以會引起關注主要是我們火力發電最近有比較多的使用那在這個煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物包括這個懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明顯的影響那煤炭的品質其實影響很大那火力發電設備的這個燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分"},{"start":379.949,"end":393.147,"text":"環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有這個評估跟掌握"},{"start":395.276,"end":419.021,"text":"因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠"},{"start":419.721,"end":432.963,"text":"因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少"},{"start":434.401,"end":454.617,"text":"因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估"},{"start":455.558,"end":468.303,"text":"那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說"},{"start":471.044,"end":495.696,"text":"我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的"},{"start":497.137,"end":508.806,"text":"馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定"},{"start":514.831,"end":542.47,"text":"讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒"},{"start":545.432,"end":566.047,"text":"就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準"},{"start":566.948,"end":575.503,"text":"這個部分我們會因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商那這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行"},{"start":576.698,"end":599.471,"text":"好那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是他卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢"},{"start":601.127,"end":626.13,"text":"因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有"},{"start":627.666,"end":647.785,"text":"因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣但是因為你未來要減碳"},{"start":649.757,"end":667.314,"text":"呃未來要檢探我們因為怎麼去看那個績效還是因為呃這裡沒有對跟不對的問題就是說你是用因為把它改名了把它證明了或者你又用其他的呃方式去看未來檢探的績效"},{"start":669.313,"end":683.363,"text":"包委員因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm"},{"start":684.864,"end":707.518,"text":"所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是"},{"start":709.031,"end":721.687,"text":"你是不是會後續再研究?如果,好,後續研究當然也要把話講完所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術它就是說,是不是只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主"},{"start":722.598,"end":748.528,"text":"那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪"},{"start":750.382,"end":778.199,"text":"僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對 不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分"},{"start":778.939,"end":783.369,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 請回應喔 謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告12點10分要處理那個解凍案喔 抱歉喔 來請葉恩之委員來做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":925,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時55分）謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事，謝謝部長幫助我們臺東，特別是掩埋場的問題，其實我們有很漂亮的風景，整個海岸線很漂亮，也謝謝部長表達立場，對於破壞環境的開發案不予以支持。再來就是都歷掩埋場的部分，那天大家去曬太陽、聞那個惡臭，即便我們離開了，那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞，久久無法散去，我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持改善掩埋場的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：再來一個很重要的部分，這個要大大地肯定部長，我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵，我們沒有回收業是不行的，可是大家對於這個行業又很嫌棄，導致這些回收業者常常被趕到山邊、海邊，最後就卡在環保用地，換句話說，就是沒有工廠登記證。在去年4月的時候，賴瑩瑩署長帶著兩個組長、兩個科長及一位非常優秀的世銓技正一起把整個計畫做出來，當然我們辦公室也花很多的力氣跟時間參與溝通及計畫撰寫，最後通過勞動部的同意，讓這批沒有廠登的資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工，作為行政院「5+2」的創新產業，對循環經濟的部分，也增添了生力軍，所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情，也謝謝賴署長，也希望部長能夠繼續支持、照顧回收業者及從業人員，重視外籍勞工的職安及勞動條件等等，本席在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：另外，最近我們為了臺灣空氣品質的亞洲排名，部長，以2024年臺灣PM2.5的平均濃度，已經下降到12.8微克/立方公尺，相較於2013年的24微克有明顯改善，並且也呼籲大家少說「用肺發電」這樣的詞彙，引起了一些關注跟討論。事實上數據會說話，我們的空氣品質指標PM2.5的確是有下降，這也是不爭的事實，只是這個指標難道只有PM2.5嗎？其他空氣中的臭氧、懸浮微粒，還有一氧化碳、二氧化硫以及二氧化氮等等這些濃度的數值也都可以根據對人體健康及影響程度，分別換算出不同污染物的空氣品質指標，我想要請教部長，其他的污染指標是否也有一起下降呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我們用PM2.5，因為PM2.5它有直接的排放，等於是2.5微克（microgram）的小微粒，它對身體直接吸到肺泡，衝擊是非常大，所以一般PM2.5包含直接的排放及衍生性的，衍生性包含硫氧化物、氮氧化物等等懸浮微粒都算在這個裡面，所以我們一般對於認知空氣污染，就是以PM2.5作為一個代表。至於SOx、NOx有沒有單獨的危害？因為每一個特性是不一樣的，所以我們現在以空氣污染學對健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主，例如說發電業，它的硫氧化物大概占四成，但是它的氮氧化物只有16%，汽、機車就占了百分之五十幾，所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣，我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這樣大概有一些概念。部長，你目前希望掛牌成立空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊？上半年度有沒有機會掛牌？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們這個是從空品的政策白皮書來的，預報同仁已經移到大氣司一起協同運作了，我們希望他們運作順利之後，再來正式掛牌。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你大概預估什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：他們現在就已經在大氣司了，原來監資司移到大氣司去做預報了，所以目前……"],["陳委員瑩：掛牌……"],["彭部長啓明：掛牌現在等我們確定一個時間，但是他們彼此的……因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司，我們現在就是希望他們有一些特別的使命，目前來說的話，大概還要等一段時間運作妥當，特別有一些新的產品出來之後……"],["陳委員瑩：所以今年大概沒機會？"],["彭部長啓明：會會會，我們今年一定會做。"],["陳委員瑩：今年會？"],["彭部長啓明：一定會做。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。我覺得之所以會引起關注，主要是火力發電最近有比較多使用，煤燃燒所產生的這些污染物，包括懸浮微粒跟二氧化硫對空氣品質造成比較明確的影響，煤炭的品質其實影響很大，火力發電設備的燃燒效率也非常重要，這個部分環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫，然後主動掌握？就是說能不能做得更好，讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有評估跟掌握？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為每一個大的煙囪都有裝空氣品質監測，同時回傳到地方的環保局，還有我們中央其實都可以看得到，所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少，我們都很清楚，基本上任何燒東西其實都有一個污染控制系統，所以這次例如說中部，你可以看得出來，中部的火力電廠因為前幾天增加了一點點，但是你看市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化，這可以看得出來其實不是大家想得那麼直接，燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少。"],["陳委員瑩：因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員瑩：在能源產生過程是不是如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫，可以便於你們事先掌握跟評估？我待會下面會講一些例子，你就會了解我為什麼很關心主動跟被動因應污染排放的問題，我們與其這樣，不如從源頭去處理。","我分享一個實例，鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的污染排放，後來我們辦公室跟中油公司有反映了這個問題，中油公司他們也被動的馬上處理這件事情，改進了脫硫技術，也提升了油品的販售品質，後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的排放標準也符合規定，讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商可以不用大費周章更改設備，就可以符合法令的規定。所以，我希望未來在火力發電的部分，環境部也可以跟台電、中油還有經濟部能有更好、更多的合作，主動去協助改善燃燒效率，我不曉得部長，這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個就是我們訂的，我們針對任何的鍋爐都有固定污染源明確的排放標準，因為要訂的時候，我們都要辦公聽會與業者協商，這個部分我們應該未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行。"],["陳委員瑩：希望大家可以多主動。最後想要請教台灣綠色成長基金，我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主，可是二氧化碳為什麼不是空氣污染的指標，但是它卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為二氧化碳主要是一個溫室氣體。"],["陳委員瑩：對，因為今年7月你們要把它正名嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：但是如果空氣品質的……你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳，我們怎麼去看減碳的績效？因為室內看這樣知道，空氣品質指標就沒有。"],["彭部長啓明：因為室內的空品，例如說現在看可以到七百多，像剛剛就到一千多，其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響，但是戶外其實二氧化碳是屬於一個比較穩定的均值，緩慢地在上升，或是它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化，跟室內直接對人體的影響比較不一樣。"],["陳委員瑩：對，但是因為你未來要減碳。"],["彭部長啓明：未來要減碳，我們因為……"],["陳委員瑩：你怎麼去看績效？這裡沒有對跟不對的問題，因為你把它改名了、把它正名了，或者你要用其他的方式去看未來減碳的績效。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站，因為二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大，所以以臺灣來說的話，我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站去量，現在大概到420ppm了，所以那個就是代表一個環境的變化，它對於溫室氣體來說倒不是直接，我們一般來說，因為燃燒就會排碳，這個燃燒量的碳多少，我們有一定的計算方式，所以跟濃度不大有關係。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，這個後續我們再研究。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["主席：你不是後續再研究？"],["陳委員瑩：後續研究，當然也要把話講完，所以未來碳捕捉的技術，是不是只是以捕捉二氧化碳為主？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：如果也能夠有效抑制其他污染物的話，這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資？"],["彭部長啓明：理論上因為只要排碳，其他污染物也都混在一起，所以只要減碳有效益，我們是以減碳有效益為最主要的目標。"],["陳委員瑩：我們希望未來碳捕捉應該不是僅限於煙囪排出去嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，不限。"],["陳委員瑩：但是我們要評估廠內作業的勞工也有污染暴露的問題，這個部分希望你們好好了解，必要的時候要做工程改善，而不是一刀切說那個就是勞動部要負責，他們只會開單而已，他們不知道怎麼去改善這些問題，所以請你們也能夠好好協助這個部分。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長，請回，謝謝。因為剛剛有宣告，12點10分要處理解凍案，抱歉！","請葉元之委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161929","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161929","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40ab0594e8ace0db70e6c7274cb7632216e57314f5ee426dfd7b8c40d3938d270f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:54:47 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謝謝次長我們現在請副秘書長我要為什麼請次長跟那個警政署上來"},{"start":174.585,"end":200.927,"text":"你現在台灣真的詐欺已經成為國恥我們包括說檢查系統包括我們的警政系統警察單位很努力的在去在前線打詐把詐騙犯把他繩之以法可是當繩之以法交到司法系統去來去判決的時候如果這邊一直把洞打開"},{"start":202.455,"end":215.563,"text":"你就會造成前端的很多的我們打詐的前線同仁他們作業上非常大的困擾那我先講這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的為什麼呢我們先講實際現在判決狀況檢刑好像變成是某種贖罪券的這個狀況他沒有辦法達到"},{"start":223.462,"end":248.921,"text":"我們剛剛次長講的這個填補受害者的所謂損失的情況之下他還是可以獲得減刑那說真的我不知道當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補他的損失來作為所謂減刑的一個條件結果他不需要受害者的那個損失受到填補一樣可以獲得減刑的時候那就會造成說今天"},{"start":250.507,"end":265.639,"text":"另外一種程度是鼓勵詐欺犯罪那我們舉個例子詐欺犯跟車手的刑責現在目前多半是落在一年到一年兩個月之間很多可以獲得緩刑或一顆罰金法務部統計的資料顯示2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬的詐欺犯看起來數字是非常多"},{"start":276.969,"end":304.708,"text":"但是有80.7% 8.9萬人他是涉及電信詐欺的案件43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或是拘役那如果是單純提供人頭賬戶被定罪輕判的比例大概是98%那所以因此在這種已經先天上事實上就已經是坦白講在我們這邊詐欺要付出的代價是蠻輕的啦"},{"start":307.069,"end":334.499,"text":"那還能夠透過所謂的我們大法庭解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑的這樣一個規定的話那我說真的難怪有人說台灣是詐騙天堂那麼另外剛剛其實市長也已經講到了我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例47條的前段的立法目的是非常明確的它其實有一個核心重心就是要填補被害人的損害"},{"start":336.684,"end":342.85,"text":"副部長是不是?市長是嘛 沒錯嘛可是今天大法庭的解釋就"},{"start":344.184,"end":372.65,"text":"裁定就推翻了這個原則啊他變成是說今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬那如果沒有取得報酬他只要自白就可以獲得減刑那問題來了請問這種情況之下犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎被填補了嗎請問副秘書長如果這兩個條件照我們刑事大法庭的裁定的話有被補償嗎"},{"start":375.429,"end":392.862,"text":"從被害人這個角度來看的話是沒有全部被獲得補償幾乎沒有啦依照過去的例子我請次長來回答這個做下去能夠填補多少百分之五 百分之一還是百分之零點二啊有些人跟我講我犯罪所得兩千啊他被詐騙了一千萬我說我犯罪所得兩千啊"},{"start":393.802,"end":419.742,"text":"所以我們不認同這樣子的認定因為我們在這邊所謂的犯罪所得我們是傾向於採取假設是共犯的話是要共同承擔而不是只有他個人的部分而且這個部分也相當難以查證所以我們是不同意這樣的見解其實剛剛次長講一個重點很難查證他接著跟你講我犯罪所得只有兩千那其實你怎麼去釐清他犯罪所得到底多少如果他錢藏得夠好 洗得夠好的話"},{"start":420.58,"end":445.676,"text":"所以因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官有表示高度疑慮他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了容易達成到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去檢他就好不用用這種方式來檢那另外就實際上很多的詐欺共犯他們幾乎都會認罪但真正犯罪所得他常常就低報啊他也不會老實跟你講犯罪所得多少甚至直接跟你講我就是沒拿到錢啊"},{"start":446.776,"end":451.464,"text":"看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊我說我沒拿到錢 你要證明我拿到錢啊"},{"start":452.998,"end":478.289,"text":"那跟今天立法的目的就是要填補被害人的損害我覺得相去十萬八千里啦所以我也要這樣講說今天這個說真的這個裁定我覺得是有點不食人間煙火啦那最後還有犯罪人你看到的是有時候被詐騙上百萬甚至上千萬那法院只要說今天看到片面他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到犯罪所得非常低的時候"},{"start":479.397,"end":488.474,"text":"那你要不要去看看就因此減刑要不要看那些被騙了幾百萬上千萬的受害者你覺得他的心情會是什麼他怎麼看待說今天這樣就可以減刑"},{"start":489.591,"end":516.552,"text":"所以因此我要說的說今天這一個其實已經變成我們今天反詐的一個破口反詐的破口那我也希望剛剛次長有提到拜託我們司法院還有我們的法務部能夠好好看怎麼把這破口補起來否則我覺得真的是很對不起今天很多被詐騙的民眾他們真的被詐騙以後受的損害如此龐大甚至造成很大身心的陰影甚至造成家庭的很大的一個"},{"start":517.487,"end":546.947,"text":"不合乃至於甚至未來生活上產生很大的困難我自己在選區跑就是遇到很多民眾被詐騙基本上錢都追不回來真的基本上錢都追不回來很難追回來結果還看到這樣子還可以減刑有時候甚至他可能也不期待錢被追回來但也看到說我今天因為我沒拿到錢被減刑說沒拿到錢被減刑我坦白講真是情何以堪啦所以拜託這個漏洞在法律上怎麼去做把它補起來好不好"},{"start":547.639,"end":555.488,"text":"好是我們會照我們剛剛所說的話會儘速啟動這個修繁的文字發布前好謝謝以上好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時54分）謝謝主席的誇獎，有請司法院王副秘書長，還有法務部黃次長。"],["主席：請王副秘書長還有黃次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["羅委員智強：想請教一下我們的副秘書長，最高法院刑事大法庭今年5月14號做了113年度台上大字第4096號裁定，你知道這個裁定的大致內容嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，知道。"],["羅委員智強：裡面是說，詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條前段規定，犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白，如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者，減輕其刑，其所稱的犯罪所得，是指行為人因犯罪的實際取得的個人所得而言，倘行為人並未實際取得個人所得，僅需於偵查及歷次審判中均自白，即合於該條前段減輕其刑規定之要件。副秘書長跟我們的次長怎麼看待這一次刑事大法庭的裁定呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，大法庭所做的那個裁定也是屬於最高法院有關於審判職權行使的一部分，所以他們在這個部分所做的裁定內容，他們在理由中也有說明他們所依據的法理，對於這個部分，我們司法行政是尊重的。"],["羅委員智強：好，當然你要尊重大法庭的裁定，可是我也要請教一下次長，甚至包括警政署，警政署要不要上來一下？"],["黃次長世杰：委員好，剛才王委員也有垂詢，我們也表達了，事實上，在最高法院大法庭的言詞辯論過程中，本部所屬最高檢察署代表出席的時候已經有堅定的表達，詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條的立法理由有很明確的表明其立法目的是為了要填補被害人所受的損害，所以我們並不認同後來大法庭所做這個裁定的見解。但是因為依照制度，這個大法庭的裁定有其解釋上的拘束力，所以我們也會儘速來研議相關的修法，讓法條的文字更加的明確，讓所謂犯罪所得的定義能夠依照立法目的來認定。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝次長。我們現在請副秘書長，我為什麼要請次長跟警政署上來？因為現在在臺灣詐欺真的已經成為國恥，包括檢察系統，包括我們的警政系統，警察單位很努力的在前線打詐，把詐騙犯繩之以法，可是當繩之以法後交到司法系統去進行判決的時候，如果這邊一直把洞打開，就會造成前端我們很多在前線打詐的同仁在作業上非常大的困擾。我先講，這個裁定其實在我看來是非常嚴重的，為什麼呢？我們先講現在判決的實際狀況，減刑好像變成是某種贖罪券，在沒有辦法達到剛剛次長講的填補受害者所受損失的情況之下，他還是可以獲得減刑，說真的，當時立這個法本來的立法目的就是希望協助受害者填補其損失來作為減刑的一個條件，結果他不需要受害者的損失受到填補也一樣可以獲得減刑，那就會造成另外某種程度是在鼓勵詐欺犯罪。","我們舉個例子，詐欺犯跟車手的刑責目前多半是落在1年到1年2個月之間，很多可以獲得緩刑或易科罰金，根據法務部的統計資料顯示，自2017年到2021年全國總共起訴11萬個詐欺犯，看起來數字是非常多，但是有80.7%、8.9萬人是涉及電信詐欺的案件，有43%的被告被判6年以下的有期徒刑或者是拘役，如果是單純提供人頭帳戶被定罪，輕判的比例大概是98%。坦白講，在我們這邊詐欺所要付出的代價是蠻輕的，還能夠透過我們大法庭的解釋放寬這種所謂的認知減刑這樣的規定，說真的，難怪有人說臺灣是詐騙天堂啦！","另外，剛剛其實次長也已經講到了，我們詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條前段的立法目的是非常明確的，它其實有一個核心重心，就是要填補被害人的損害，副秘書長，是不是這樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：次長，是這樣沒錯嘛？可是今天大法庭對這個裁定的解釋就推翻了這個原則啊！變成今天所稱的犯罪所得只是限於行為人實際取得的報酬，如果沒有取得報酬，他只要自白就可以獲得減刑。那問題來了！請問在這種情況之下，犯罪人的損害被補償了嗎？被填補了嗎？請問副秘書長，就這兩個條件，如果照我們刑事大法庭的裁定，有被補償嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：從被害人這個角度來看的話，是沒有全部獲得補償。"],["羅委員智強：幾乎沒有啦！依照過去的例子，我請次長來回答，這個做下去能夠填補多少？5%、1%還是0.2%？有些人跟我講「我的犯罪所得就2,000」，被害人總共被詐騙了1,000萬，可是他卻說犯罪所得只有2,000啊！"],["黃次長世杰：是，所以我們不認同這樣子的認定，因為我們對所謂的犯罪所得是傾向於採取的態度，假設他是共犯的話，就是要共同承擔，而不是只有他個人的部分，而且這個部分也相當難以查證，所以我們是不同意這樣的見解。"],["羅委員智強：其實剛剛次長講到一個重點，就是很難查證，他今天跟你講「我的犯罪所得只有2,000」，如果他把錢藏得夠好、洗得夠好的話，你要怎麼去釐清他的犯罪所得到底是多少？因此你也看到基層法院有很多法官表示高度疑慮，他們認為這個減刑條件實在太容易達成了，容易到你乾脆直接在本刑當中去減就好了，不必用這種方式來減。另外，實際上有很多詐欺共犯幾乎都會認罪，但是對真正的犯罪所得常常就低報，他也不會老實跟你講他的犯罪所得是多少，甚至直接跟你講「我就是沒拿到錢」，就看你們檢方跟警方的本事啊！我說我沒拿到錢，你要證明我拿到錢啊！我覺得跟今天就是要填補被害人所受損害的立法目的相去十萬八千里，所以我要這樣講，說真的，我覺得今天這個裁定是有一點不食人間煙火。","最後，有時候被詐騙的金額高達上百萬甚至上千萬，那法院今天只有看到片面，他跟你否認他拿到犯罪所得或是他拿到的犯罪所得非常低的時候，他就因此減刑，那你要不要看看那些被騙了幾百萬、上千萬的受害者？你覺得他的心情會是什麼？他會怎麼看待只要這樣就可以減刑的判決？因此我要說的是，今天這個其實已經變成我們反詐的一個破口，剛剛次長也有提到，所以拜託司法院還有法務部能夠好好看要怎麼樣把這個破口補起來，否則我覺得真的是很對不起很多被詐騙的民眾，他們在被詐騙以後所受的損害如此龐大，造成身心有很大的陰影，甚至造成家庭很大的不和，乃至於未來在生活上產生很大的困難。我自己在選區跑的時候有遇到很多被詐騙的民眾，基本上，到最後錢都追不回來，真的都追不回來，很難追回來，結果他們還看到只要這樣就可以減刑，有時候他們甚至可能也不期待錢被追回來，大家看到詐欺犯因為說沒拿到錢就被減刑，坦白講，真的是情何以堪啊！所以拜託對這個漏洞看看在法律上要怎麼去做，把它補起來好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們會照我們剛剛所說的，會儘速啟動修法的文字，然後把它補起來。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅智強委員。","我們所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員跟本會。委員張雅琳、邱鎮軍、林倩綺、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好 部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後"},{"start":38.179,"end":52.592,"text":"預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寬鬆就是你只要把"},{"start":53.473,"end":70.053,"text":"這個水泥窯 因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致"},{"start":70.894,"end":98.389,"text":"所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF"},{"start":100.411,"end":112.358,"text":"現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好 謝謝"},{"start":118.396,"end":141.071,"text":"向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後"},{"start":142.192,"end":146.134,"text":"好那這樣子好OK那接下來我要討論就是我上一次諮詢也沒有問到的就是限制產品過度包裝限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定"},{"start":159.321,"end":182.807,"text":"那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道 我告訴你沒關係 這不是很重要糕餅類 化妝品 酒 加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊 電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦"},{"start":183.871,"end":206.9,"text":"我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面定定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的"},{"start":211.042,"end":212.383,"text":"這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個 稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去"},{"start":226.335,"end":254.612,"text":"所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘 犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水 單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包 包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的"},{"start":256.133,"end":274.028,"text":"包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就"},{"start":275.273,"end":280.996,"text":"法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了"},{"start":295.626,"end":304.613,"text":"早就不合時宜了 部長 你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦 我現在草案另外一回事 我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品 我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜 那種"},{"start":323.288,"end":330.152,"text":"茶飲飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是這個署長是是那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種"},{"start":349.035,"end":353.517,"text":"現在就不只是那五類了啦 那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法 那個類型你草案公告了嗎 還沒有 那個類型的內容是說我再來跟委員這邊來報告好啦 你回去你沒好啦 抱歉我現在說你們自己不知道也不公告也不訂案 所以你們在這裡報告我沒好我現在說你們的荒謬就是執行面的荒謬"},{"start":376.104,"end":380.487,"text":"113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來 代表有符合規定才會來嗎"},{"start":400.92,"end":408.463,"text":"業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧"},{"start":423.823,"end":431.668,"text":"因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法這個就資源循環啊 源頭減量啊你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格"},{"start":448.097,"end":453.48,"text":"112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類 俏西人的五類都五成 六成 四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新"},{"start":477.212,"end":480.573,"text":"大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材"},{"start":492.957,"end":496.68,"text":"包材的相關規則對於包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔"},{"start":510.57,"end":538.424,"text":"禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長 韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用"},{"start":540.125,"end":565.247,"text":"要生死的人 那個包材 都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材 網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝 到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的 對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放 對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎 部長"},{"start":566.741,"end":583.455,"text":"委員 這個我們來檢討好不好 這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去 溝通完成現在就PVC的管制 你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前 人就很多限制啦台灣現在還在隆厚 隆厚人二十幾年還有那個食品包裝的 還有這個藥材包裝的還有洗身的這些藥物的包裝"},{"start":595.985,"end":611.247,"text":"還有那個管子 醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的 一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看 保庭你看要怎麼管理"},{"start":612.336,"end":637.854,"text":"各位報告,那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討,那些不要說,要笑死人我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案要想好誰啦我現在要說的聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC,對健康案的環境危害最大保證,你怎麼管"},{"start":642.29,"end":663.663,"text":"食品 衣材還有全面的禁用 包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都要擔頭 不要輕易的擔頭喔各位報告 那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年 2001年 2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC"},{"start":672.685,"end":674.566,"text":"那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿 現實很骨感"},{"start":692.611,"end":704.595,"text":"你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊 大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去做回收你們也有一個示範計畫 你知道叫什麼嗎"},{"start":726.362,"end":746.132,"text":"網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個"},{"start":750.115,"end":766.472,"text":"環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎"},{"start":771.161,"end":785.592,"text":"因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個"},{"start":787.333,"end":793.798,"text":"循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤"},{"start":816.295,"end":827.482,"text":"是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍 意思是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋 你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊 因為比較用的嘛 比較用的可以循環使用啊"},{"start":839.37,"end":859.579,"text":"你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的 我們都同意"},{"start":863.16,"end":874.79,"text":"但是在循環經濟 循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎 4.02次"},{"start":879.995,"end":906.23,"text":"那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔"},{"start":910.613,"end":911.539,"text":"我先看數字好了來"},{"start":913.137,"end":920.822,"text":"台北市喔 這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一顆希望歸還回來25.7% 循環不到一次一百顆出去了 只剩下25.7%新北市26.6% 桃園8.6% 台中32.0% 台南20.2%平均啊 23.6%"},{"start":941.437,"end":943.619,"text":"我們都要4.02次 4.68次你對環境負擔 你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶 怎麼辦怎麼辦 保證 你的政策有問題啊"},{"start":958.601,"end":977.311,"text":"你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升"},{"start":978.619,"end":983.201,"text":"這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好 其實沒有啊回收的據點 數量 分布 服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵"},{"start":1003.226,"end":1011.119,"text":"所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你的循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放"},{"start":1019.164,"end":1041.492,"text":"在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱"},{"start":1044.073,"end":1064.849,"text":"要以大代小 以公代私 屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎 沒有以公代私 你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎 部長 五十六 六十五件 六十五件這樣的話 推動這個示範計畫"},{"start":1069.946,"end":1083.083,"text":"這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說"},{"start":1087.548,"end":1115.183,"text":"實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用 以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢 除了這些宣示 天方夜譚一個啊你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎你的營運的模式 還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖 都沒有啊"},{"start":1116.304,"end":1141.919,"text":"所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範 而且是負面的示範負面的啦 負面的啦好了 幫委員 這個其實我們最近我上任之後就過去一年有好幾次跟那個電商平台在討論這個事啦啊 委員你說的你們跟幾個電商平台在討論 哪幾個所有電商平台 他們有一個協會啊現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會呃 他有一個無電面工會"},{"start":1143.854,"end":1147.678,"text":"有啦 人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站對不對但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦"},{"start":1162.424,"end":1173.092,"text":"比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個信號拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏 我就去網購屈臣氏你聽得懂嗎 因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西 我如果要走到屈臣氏 我就去網購所以沒有店面的 沒有實體通路的"},{"start":1190.255,"end":1217.398,"text":"那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這件事你自己沒有管到的"},{"start":1217.958,"end":1232.533,"text":"OK我知道啦 因為那個是以前的報告啦 我會再來注意 找一天跟委員再特別報告對啦 我的19案 剛才的19案 改為討論事項OK 謝謝不要再讓你委員笑了啦 好 謝謝接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":861,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時35分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。今天的報告事項第(十九)案是本人的提案，你們把它列為報告事項，然後直接提個書面來就要解凍，我覺得是為德不卒，因為我們的解凍要件叫作水泥業空氣污染物排放標準修正草案「預告後」，也就是你們要修正這個法規並預告後，才能把這個書面送進來到立法院，就自動解凍。我給你們的條件很寬鬆，就是你們只要把水泥窯……因為水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生戴奧辛的比例並不低，而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準一致，所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入戴奧辛及氯化氫的標準，要設定出來，有標準以後要預告，你們預告之後送一個書面報告說：「報告立法院，我們已經預告了，水泥窯有戴奧辛標準、有氯化氫的管制標準了，所以水泥窯燃燒SRF現在納管了」，只要送這個報告來，我們就自動解凍，都不用經立法院同意。可是你今天沒有預告、沒有修正，就送一個書面來，然後就自動解凍了，這樣對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員聽我們司長來做一個報告，謝謝。"],["黃司長偉鳴：向委員報告，關於這個案子，其實我們在寫書面意見的時候也強調要預告以後，預算才能夠解凍，因為行政院要求我們解凍案要全部一起送，所以我們在解凍的時候不敢說要解凍……"],["林委員淑芬：好，第(十九)案改列為討論事項，因為它並沒有達到報告事項的標準，必須要修正以後。好，這樣OK。","接下來我要討論上一次質詢沒有問到的，就是限制產品過度包裝。部長，你知道我們在94年就公告的「公告限制產品過度包裝」是針對哪5類的商品禮盒去限制嗎？你不知道，我告訴你，因為這不是很重要，就是糕餅類、化妝品、酒、加工食品、電腦程式著作光碟。天啊！限制電腦程式著作光碟不可以包裝過度，連電腦程式著作光碟都快要消失了，不過我不是要跟你講這個。你們在「公告限制產品過度包裝」裡面訂定了包裝幾層、體積比值。經過20年了，這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源、易回收的包裝標記，要減輕環境負擔，要環境友善，你們所有的作為都指向源頭減量，可是這個政策20年了，還這麼地……只剩下口號。而且很荒謬的是，規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節；第二個，稽查的執法效能完全不忍卒睹，讓人看不下去，所以現在源頭減量都是口號而已；管制的範圍狹隘，放任多數包裝浪費。","部長，你也說說看，市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品，包括單瓶的化妝水；單件的衣服；複合產品；多件組合的零食包，包了一層再一層；清潔用品補充包的組合。這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯了包裝用量、廢棄量都超乎環境能夠負荷的，而且政府完全沒有任何規範。在這種狀況底下，你們還限縮在這5類禮盒的狹義定義，法規早就非常地落後了。剛剛講的光碟，連光碟都沒了，你們還在限制它的包裝！這還不是夕陽產品，已經全部都沒了，非常地罕見。我要去找一片光碟，還要看它有沒有包裝，都已經找不到了，早就不合時宜了，部長，你聽到也會笑。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在有一個草案，是不是請署長來說明一下？"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！現在草案是另外一回事，我先跟你講，單元產品和複合產品的包裝有紙類、塑膠盒加熱縮膜、塑膠泡殼加紙板；文具用品、盥洗用品有熱縮膜；茶飲、飲用茶有組合包裝塑膠袋等等。請署長。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們現在有針對比較多元、複雜的包裝方式提出一個草案，只是這個草案我們還是希望能夠做更多的溝通。"],["林委員淑芬：你們規範的類型有哪幾種？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：現在就不只是那五類了，那個類型……"],["林委員淑芬：你們是怎麼個規範法？你的草案公告了嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：還沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！所以我們都不知道。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：關於類型的內容部分，我再跟委員這邊來報告。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！這樣你可以回去了，用不到你了。部長，你們自己都還不知道，也還沒有公告，也還沒有定案，所以你在這裡跟我報告沒有用，我現在要跟你說，你們執行面的荒謬在哪裡。113年度環境部針對市售禮盒產品主動稽查100件，合格率只有64%，其中市面上有36%，超過三成的禮盒公然違規，還有更荒謬的，連業者自己主動送驗的，業者自己送驗的代表有符合規定，它才會送來，業者自己主動送驗的73件禮盒當中，也有10件不符合規定，不合格率是13.7%，連業者自己都知道可能會違規，它還送驗，這麼高的不合格率。所以部長，你知道整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法。"],["林委員淑芬：這個就是資源循環、源頭減量。"],["彭部長啓明：細節、細部的……"],["林委員淑芬：你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量，你們調查過度包裝的稽查件數，109年59.8%不合格，110年20%不合格，113年43%不合格，112年50%不合格，我剛剛講的113年是36%，我的意思是笑死人的那五類都有五成、六成、四成不合格，更不要講新的樣態。新的樣態指的是PC、PVC，PVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康風險，對環境的負擔很重大，大家都知道PVC拿去焚化爐燒會產生戴奧辛，而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境風險這麼威脅的時候，國際都在禁用了。部長聽好，韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材的相關規則，對於包裝空間、包裝層數都有明文規定，而且還規定製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗覆的包裝材料；2001年韓國禁止使用PVC收縮膜，2004年也就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸食品、漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVC，PVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以。部長，韓國很早就限縮了，整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用，洗腎者使用的那些包材又都是PVC，所以環境部針對食品包材、網購商品以外市售產品的PVC包裝，到現在都沒有全面禁止使用，這種對人體有毒、對環境有戴奧辛排放、對環境有害，還要繼續下去嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們來檢討，好不好？我們會儘快，因為最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去溝通完成。"],["林委員淑芬：現在就PVC的管制，你認為要管制到哪裡？韓國二十幾年前就有很多限制，臺灣還在落伍，落伍人家二十幾年，還有食品包裝、藥材包裝以及洗腎藥物的包裝，還有醫療用的管子還在用PVC，一般人去提水的白色桶子還在用PVC，塑化劑很嚴重，部長，你看要怎麼管理？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，剛剛提過的那五個包裝，我們是有在檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：五類的一定要檢討，那個就別再說了，笑死人了！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們在網購包裝部分有一個公告，事實上裡面也有針對PVC做管制。"],["林委員淑芬：單元產品和複合式產品一大堆，像山一樣，所以你的草案要仔細思考。我現在要說的聚焦在PVC，我還是要談PVC對健康和環境危害最大，部長，你要怎麼管？對於食品、醫材，還有包裝上的全面禁用有困難嗎？你現在在那邊點頭，不要輕易點頭喔！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們會調查它的使用情形，要減少使用包括……"],["林委員淑芬：我們已經落後了二十幾年，我剛才不是跟你講過韓國了，韓國1993年、2001年、2004年就規定連塗層都不可以含PVC。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們來努力，你交代的事我會做。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，我交代的都是必須要的，真的是迫切的，對健康和環境風險有很大的危害。再來，因為你一直在講循環，可是你們的循環包裝政策是理想很豐滿、現實很骨感，你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性包材的依賴，尤其要實現循環經濟，達成包裝減量的目標。尤其是大家都知道網購，大家網購都買很多，我自己也很不愛網購，但是就是很需要網購，每次網購一來，它的紙箱、它的包材，我在想我到底可以拿去哪裡回收，你們也有一個試辦計畫，你知道叫什麼嗎？部長，你不知道喔？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道，名字忘記了。"],["林委員淑芬：網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式，你們設定了循環箱、循環袋的使用率目標，你們跟屈臣氏有一個合作計畫，叫做配客嘉網購循環示範計畫，你們自己部裡面做了示範，你們還有一個環境部團購循環箱示範計畫，可是我剛剛講政策很理想，現實不堪卒睹，你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為那個成本比較高，我們現在有一個公告，那是1.0版，等於是我們把第一次試辦變成法令化，現在要更進階，有一個2.0版，現在也在試辦當中，會從……"],["林委員淑芬：我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題，第一個，循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸，本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用，可是你們的環保美意不但沒有達到這個目標，還蕩然無存的更浪費資源，而且排碳更多。信封型循環袋的總環境負擔，它的碳排放量是1.32KG，碳足跡數值及碳排放是1.32公斤，是一般袋子0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍，意思就是一般的信封袋和循環袋，你們的碳排放量是人家的3.77倍，沒關係，如果比較耐用的話就可以循環使用；你們循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG，是一般箱子的4.39倍。可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材環境負擔的主要來源，所以它就是要耐用，而且要重複使用，在初期生產階段的環境負擔是比較高的，我們都同意，但是在循環經濟、循環使用以後，知道一個信封袋要循環幾次，才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平、打平嗎？你知道要幾次嗎？4.02次。如果是循環箱要循環幾次才能夠跟網購的一般紙箱打平，它的環境負擔才能打平？要循環4.68次，但是部長，這個政策你沒有追蹤，你知道你的信封型循環袋，還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎？部長，你知道嗎？你不知道喔！我先看數字好了，臺北市循環箱歸還率25.7%，不是100%喔！一個箱子歸還回來25.7%，循環不到一次，100箱出去只回來25.7箱，新北市26.6%、桃園8.6%、臺中32.0%、臺南20.2%，平均23.6%，你們說要使用4.02次、4.68次，對環境負擔的成本才能夠將打平，它是不到一次，怎麼辦？部長，你的政策有問題啊！你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6%，你們覺得問題在哪裡，你知道嗎？因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩，大家就沒有意願，間接地導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升，這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收？你們說這樣便利回收試辦計畫很好，其實沒有啊！回收的據點、數量、分布、服務時間都不能夠滿足民眾的需求，所以願意使用而且歸還循環包材的消費者和業者，你們沒有辦法提供足夠且具有吸引力的實質獎勵，連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有，要怎麼循環？所以你的循環變成口號而已，口號啊！循環箱在初期的碳排放這麼高的狀況裡面，想要達到你的目標，根本就是天方夜譚，你的政策推動零散、沒有系統性規劃是失敗的，而且你們在講停留在零星的業者自主試辦及部裡面自己的團購，你們宣稱要以大帶小、以公帶私，屈臣氏的系統叫以大帶小嗎？大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎？沒有！以公帶私，你們環境部的網購循環，幾個人參加、幾次，部長，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不多。"],["林委員淑芬：65件，這樣有辦法推動試辦計畫喔？這個計畫是先在環境部和大型業者推廣使用，再逐步擴展到全社會，建立起一個涵蓋電商平臺、物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統，你們要實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用，以上我唸的都是你們政策宣示的目標，但是除了這些宣示、這些天方夜譚以外，你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模、系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎？你的營運模式及產業生態鏈能不能提出具體的政策藍圖？都沒有啊！所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範，而且是失敗的示範、負面的示範，負面的啦！負面的啦！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，最近在我上任之後，過去一年有好幾次跟電商平臺在討論這件事，委員說的的確是我們……"],["林委員淑芬：你們跟幾個電商平臺在討論？哪幾個？"],["彭部長啓明：所有電商平臺，他們有一個協會啦！"],["林委員淑芬：現在有誰做了？"],["彭部長啓明：還沒。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼協會？"],["彭部長啓明：他們有一個無店面公會。"],["林委員淑芬：有啦！人家momo電商也有啦！"],["彭部長啓明：它自己做……"],["林委員淑芬：momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟的社區資源回收站，很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站在哪裡，但是momo也意思、意思地做了，比你們做得更好啦！因為你們是網購屈臣氏的東西寄到你們家，然後再把這個箱子拿去屈臣氏，我如果要去屈臣氏，為什麼我還需要網購屈臣氏呢？你聽得懂嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道、我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊！我買了東西後，還需要走到屈臣氏還箱子，我何需網購，對不對？"],["主席：對啦，脫褲子放屁。"],["林委員淑芬：所以沒有店面的、沒有實體通路的，momo是這樣做，但是還有一種蝦皮店到店，蝦皮店到店回收很方便啊！建置一個系統，刷一下、放進去，蝦皮店到店很多人在用啊！"],["主席：這部分一個禮拜內提出報告，好嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！所以你自己做出這種……"],["主席：提出報告啦！這樣就對了。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員淑芬：你提這種政策，真的是有夠好笑的，部長。這件是你自己沒有管到的、lose掉了啦！"],["彭部長啓明：OK，我知道。因為那個是以前的報告，我會再來注意，找一天跟委員再特別報告。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我剛才的第（十九）案改為討論事項。"],["彭部長啓明：好、好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：不要再讓林委員笑了啦！好，謝謝。","接下來請涂權吉委員。涂權吉委員、涂權吉委員不在。","請陳瑩委員質詢。我們12點5分會處理解凍案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161927","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161927","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a7a4004b561de259c6c7274cb7632216e12766cb13dea938991295010ed49b34a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:48:24 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我也不知道 看這個"},{"start":17.799,"end":40.302,"text":"下一步是副市長徐副市長副市長因為我們今天在討論說根燒法在學校實施的狀況那我不知道你有沒有掌握到一個情形其實在大學裡面學生根燒學生相對來說是比較好處理因為行為人本身他可以在家裡可以要求在家裡上課應該這樣吧現場教學有一部分是現場教學"},{"start":41.283,"end":58.71,"text":"但是現在比較難處理的是學生跟著老師因為學生跟著老師有的時候也造成老師很緊張老師他的上課時間固定而且他的那個研究室大家也都知道位置所以很多老師壓力很大那我知道有一些大學有發生類似的狀況"},{"start":59.85,"end":79.102,"text":"他的程序一開始要先去警察局備案嘛申請告誡書嘛然後再來就是如果沒有辦法停止這樣行為的話要申請保護令這中間都需要時間那保護令下來如果行為人還是繼續犯的話呢可能就違法再透過相關的法令來處置"},{"start":80.273,"end":97.096,"text":"但問題是這個中間老師就造成很大的心理的壓力一方面還要考慮到學生的授教權老師並不是說像學生跟著學生一樣這麼容易處理教育部在這邊有什麼提出什麼因應的方案嗎"},{"start":97.99,"end":124.257,"text":"是跟委員報告只要那個校園的性別平等案件只要是他是有一方是學生的那都會進入我們的性平教育法的相關規定去處理那至於跟有關跟騷的部分請我們在112年的時候就有頒布大專校園校園跟蹤騷擾事件的處理執意那在113那個不好意思不要念你們那個辦法我先講這個具體的具體的案例就是說不是案例啦就是具體實際狀況"},{"start":125.998,"end":132.952,"text":"因為他的那些程序他需要時間啊老師在這段時間受到壓力就比較難處理你們有提出什麼因應的方案出來嗎"},{"start":134.864,"end":156.542,"text":"其實依照我們的規定的話他這個部分我們會依照老師如果有這樣的一個狀況他其實都是可以跟我們的學校的學務處做一個都有啊我剛剛講到剛剛都已經把他講了之後的流程都告訴你了啊對我對但是並沒有解決我剛講的問題嘛這樣子啊我因為可能你也沒有掌握狀況啊我我這邊有三個具體建議好不好"},{"start":157.509,"end":164.305,"text":"你回去研究一下第一個 可不可以給那個老師一個設立一個心理的支持系統"},{"start":165.975,"end":187.934,"text":"然後第二個是有沒有換課機制然後第三有沒有可能彈性授課大概這幾個幾個方案你回去研究一下好不好然後對因為因為可能學生對學生比較容易處理啦學生對老師因為兼顧到學生的受教權那老師其實你要叫老師去告學生老師壓力很大啦"},{"start":189.144,"end":209.401,"text":"所以這部分可能你們沒有掌握到教學現場的狀況是不是可以回去研究一下可以好不好那是不是研究一個月給我們一個這個討論的研究報告好不好就是針對剛剛我講的狀況好就針對剛剛委員指教的三點我們再進一步研議OK好謝謝然後接下來請警察局好不好警察 警政署請警政署"},{"start":219.318,"end":245.449,"text":"委員好副主長好這個我跟警政署請教一下因為最近我常常看到一些案例都是那個交通違規但是很明顯它可能是科技執法或者是有人檢舉但是很明顯的就是有不可抗力的因素但這樣被罰我們來看一下一個照片比如說像這一張這一張你看這個小轎車它後來被檢舉跨越雙黃線"},{"start":247.116,"end":269.801,"text":"但副長應該很清楚他跨越的原因是因為右邊有人圍挺所以他才跨越結果他被處罰被處罰後來申訴申訴當然警察局就說這是不可抗力會撤銷但是他的過程當中已經老民了因為這本來在科技執法的時候他就可以判讀就可以剔除我再給你看第二張照片"},{"start":270.868,"end":289.202,"text":"右到這邊這也是一樣這也是一張新聞報導的圈起來那個小轎車因為本來應該要往右走啦但是他往左走他就被罰了但是右邊我們可以看到很明顯右邊有三角錐而且還有那個怪手在那邊他不可能從怪手上面壓過去嘛所以他往左邊走後來就被罰了那後來也撤銷"},{"start":290.183,"end":307.485,"text":"那我是不曉得說即便是結果是撤銷可是過程第一個這些車主收到罰單一定會很不高興啊一定會很不高興覺得莫名其妙被罰這個每一個人都會很憤怒然後第二他去申訴需要時間需要精力然後也要承受這種情緒上的壓力"},{"start":309.207,"end":327.257,"text":"所以為什麼就是警察單位在判定這個即便是有人檢舉或科技執法一定需要人工判定啊那判定的時候為什麼不能事件排除呢一定要把罰單寄出去讓人家來申訴那原因到底是什麼是 這個可能是因為這個科技執法有些"},{"start":329.266,"end":351.595,"text":"就是剛開始的那個審判是有委外的有委外的那如果第二級的審判那單位主管副主管就會審判因為也許是案件多他沒辦法那麼詳細美暗的看那麼清楚我覺得你看一下上一張剛秀的這個應該肉眼一看就知道了吧他應該不是故意違規吧他應該是因為右邊有人違停吧不然他要怎麼過"},{"start":353.305,"end":373.254,"text":"這很明顯啊因為這前後也裡面看得到也才三台車而已啊四台車那這個部分我覺得是不是可以整合人員的教育對是不是可以再加強一下因為這真的有點老民啊所以這個就是透過加強教育的方式嘛來解決嘛好謝謝好謝謝葉言之委員接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":736,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時48分）主席，麻煩請教育部學特司。"],["主席：請教育部許副司長。"],["葉委員元之：副司長，因為我們今天討論的是跟騷法在學校實施的狀況，我不知道你有沒有掌握到一個情形。其實大學裡面學生跟騷學生的案件相對來說比較好處理，因為對行為人本身，可以要求他在家裡上課，應該是這樣吧？就是線上教學。"],["許副司長嘉倩：有一部分是線上教學。"],["葉委員元之：但是現在比較難處理的是學生跟騷老師，因為學生跟騷老師，有的時候也會造成老師很緊張，老師的上課時間固定，而且他的研究室大家也都知道位置，所以很多老師壓力很大，我知道一些大學有發生類似的狀況，它處理的程序一開始要先去警察局備案、聲請告誡書；再來，如果沒有辦法停止這樣的行為，要聲請保護令，這中間都需要時間；保護令下來，如果行為人還是繼續犯的話，可能就會違法，就要透過相關的法令來處置，但問題是這中間就造成老師很大的心理壓力，一方面還要考慮到學生的受教權，老師並不像學生跟騷學生一樣，這麼容易處理，對此，教育部有提出什麼因應方案嗎？"],["許副司長嘉倩：跟委員報告，關於校園性別平等案件，只要有一方是學生，都會進入我們性平教育法的相關規定去處理。至於有關跟騷的部分，其實我們在112年的時候，就有頒布大專校院校園跟蹤騷擾事件的處理指引；在113年……"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，不要再唸你們那個辦法了，我現在講的是具體的實際狀況，就是因為這些程序需要時間，老師在這段時間受到的壓力，就會比較難處理，你們有提出什麼因應的方案出來嗎？"],["許副司長嘉倩：其實依照我們的規定，老師如果有這樣一個狀況，他其實都是可以跟我們學校的學務處做一個……"],["葉委員元之：都有啊！我剛剛已經把他講了，之後的流程都告訴你了啊！但是這並沒有解決我剛剛講的問題，這樣子好了，因為你可能也沒有掌握狀況，所以我這邊有三個具體建議，請你回去研究一下。第一個，可不可以給老師設立一個心理支持系統？第二個，有沒有換課機制？第三個，有沒有可能彈性授課？大概有這幾個方案，請你回去研究一下。"],["許副司長嘉倩：好，謝謝委員，這個部分我們會再研究。"],["葉委員元之：因為學生對學生的部分可能比較容易處理；而學生對老師的部分，因為兼顧到學生的受教權，而且你要叫老師去告學生，其實老師壓力很大，所以這部分你們可能沒有掌握到教學現場的狀況，是不是可以回去研究一下？"],["許副司長嘉倩：可以。"],["葉委員元之：是不是研究一下，一個月內給我們一個討論後的研究報告，就是針對剛剛我講的狀況，好不好？"],["許副司長嘉倩：好，針對剛剛委員指教的三點，我們再進一步研議。"],["葉委員元之：OK，謝謝。","接下來請警政署。"],["主席：請警政署。"],["詹副署長永茂：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：副署長好。跟警政署請教一下，因為最近我常常看到一些案例，都是與交通違規有關，這可能是科技執法，或者是有人檢舉，但是很明顯的就是有不可抗力的因素，但卻因為這樣而被罰。我們來看一下照片，譬如說這一張，這個小轎車後來被檢舉跨越雙黃線，但副署長應該很清楚，他跨越的原因是因為右邊有人違停，所以他才跨越，結果他被處罰了，後來就提出申訴，當然警察局就說這是不可抗力、會撤銷，但是它的這個過程當中就已經擾民了，因為本來在科技執法的時候，就可以判讀、就可以剔除了。","我再給你看第二張照片，這也是一樣，是有新聞報導的，即照片中圈起來的小轎車，本來應該要往右走，但是他往左走，所以就被罰了，但是很明顯的，我們可以看到右邊有三角錐，而且還有怪手在那邊，他不可能從怪手上面壓過去，所以他往左邊走，後來就被罰，後來也撤銷了，即便結果是撤銷，但在這個過程當中，第一個，這些車主收到罰單，一定會很不高興，覺得莫名其妙被罰，我想每一個人都會很憤怒；第二個，他去申訴需要時間、需要精力，然後也要承受那種情緒上的壓力，為什麼警察單位在判定的時候，即便是有人檢舉或科技執法，一定需要人工判定，判定的時候為什麼不能事先排除，一定要把罰單寄出去，讓人家來申訴，這個原因到底是什麼？"],["詹副署長永茂：因為科技執法剛開始的審判是有委外的，如果是第二級的審判就由單位主管、副主管在審判，也許是案件多，他沒辦法那麼詳細，每案都看得那麼清楚，這個部分……"],["葉委員元之：你看一下上一張、剛剛秀的照片，這應該肉眼一看就知道，他應該不是故意違規，是因為右邊有人違停，不然他要怎麼過？這很明顯啊！因為前後、裡面看得到的，也才4台車而已……"],["詹副署長永茂：這個部分……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得是不是可以……"],["詹副署長永茂：審核人員的教育我們會再加強。"],["葉委員元之：是不是可以再加強一下？因為這真的有點擾民，所以這就是透過加強教育的方式來解決嗎？"],["詹副署長永茂：是。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請壓軸的、最帥的羅智強委員，我若沒稱讚一下你們的解凍案可能會難過關，你知道嗎？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請司法院 謝謝請王副秘書長"},{"start":18.21,"end":22.014,"text":"我們就快速進入今天的主題首先我想要跟你討論的是有關於跟騷法第三條有關於跟騷行為的定義還有構成要件其實剛剛司要委員也已經說了我們認為這個條件其實太過嚴苛那目前你們是用條列式的方法"},{"start":37.489,"end":52.572,"text":"那我認為他沒有蓋過條款那我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子跟您討論為什麼我認為他過於嚴苛在投影片的左手邊彩色這個內容這個內容我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個"},{"start":53.413,"end":59.177,"text":"粉絲專業它叫做直男行為研究所如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態是不在你們的條列當中這個粉絲專業絕對是研究的寶庫但是這個寶庫絕對是負面教材所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛"},{"start":73.727,"end":88.381,"text":"左邊這一張他是行為人他一直在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文他也沒有直接貼給某一個人他就是一直貼但是呢我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到這個樣態你應該是清楚的"},{"start":91.044,"end":120.471,"text":"那他也沒有強迫對方要看可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力這是第一種樣態第二種在右上方這一張行為人他不斷的傳訊息給對方不斷的單方面的傳遞訊息但他很厲害他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關他可能是各式各樣的訊息那偶爾穿插一些跟性跟性別議題有關的一樣造成對方很大的壓力但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合"},{"start":120.931,"end":149.284,"text":"第三個右下方這一張是有一些行為人他沒有持續或者是反覆的去騷擾特定人但是他卻持續或反覆的騷擾不同的人那一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息來找到我結果我去網路上一撈發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為所以我今天舉的只是三種樣態"},{"start":150.785,"end":159.992,"text":"都其實跟你們的相關我剛剛說條列式的其實有很大的落差所以我們往下來看所以我想要跟蜂蜜署長討論是這邊第一個關於可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限而且沒有概括條款"},{"start":169.439,"end":196.032,"text":"導致於漏接很多當事人的個案這是你剛剛看到了嘛我舉了這些例子第二個目前的條文我們只處理了性跟性別有關的跟蹤騷擾但是跟性跟性別無關的騷擾對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎我剛剛舉了這些例子你大概可以想像第三個目前法規中也沒有針對反覆或者是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷"},{"start":196.792,"end":200.76,"text":"就是我剛舉例這三種樣態我想知道副秘書長還是內政部這邊要上來回答你們怎麼看還是我們讓內政部回答好 謝謝"},{"start":209.4,"end":236.368,"text":"我剛舉例的這些樣態我相信你沒有研究但也請相信我沒有研究我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找發現非常容易找到我剛說這些樣態我想要聽聽看你的說法如果說以內政部的立場的話因為像剛剛委員所舉的樣態我們基本上從寬認定在告借書的部分我們警方都可以來處理也可以處理但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分"},{"start":237.648,"end":265.567,"text":"因為跟性別有關這樣的一個定義事實上它也是相對比較模糊一點但是如果說對被害人造成壓力或是剛剛我們在之前報告的時候有提到就是說他無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的這樣的一個行動那用這個方式來嚇阻就是所謂的加害人他在這個方面的一個行為"},{"start":266.311,"end":284.71,"text":"但是我想就修法角度我認為我們應該有機會如同你剛剛講現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助所謂的被害人去處理這個樣態但是如果有機會放進跟騷法我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會再來討論"},{"start":286.391,"end":310.145,"text":"好這邊先謝謝那接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第12條還有提到所謂跟騷保護令的合法內容其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計劃那剛剛司要委員也有問到這一題目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用對不對我們來看一下那我們找到你們的統計結果這個是司法院的自己做統計資料從跟騷法實行到現在為止"},{"start":313.687,"end":337.386,"text":"地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少1 1 1 2 2 2這個數字這麼少我想知道是因為當事人他因為就是所謂的被害人他需要先墊付費用所以他沒有提出申請還是他們提出申請之後司法院這邊法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫我不知道背後數字代表的意義是什麼這個我請廳長來回覆好 謝謝"},{"start":342.526,"end":363.519,"text":"市委員好,跟委員報告,那個關於目前我們剛有提到儲育計畫是目前現行保護令執行面的問題因為在那個這一個加害人是否需要儲育計畫的裁定他可能需要鑑定有一些案例曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定是因為"},{"start":364.66,"end":385.598,"text":"當事人他本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料所以法院就可以直接裁定那除此之外他必須鑑定那鑑定因為我們是准用民事訴訟法他必須當事人負擔對嘛 所以我的猜測是對的有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這個費用對 那個當事人墊付的部分因為這個部分在目前現行法制就沒有辦法去突破"},{"start":386.258,"end":405.838,"text":"那這個之前在跟內政部換衛福部在協商的時候其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題好那內政部也承諾說這部分他們會來改善好我們希望有積極的進度好不好好謝謝來從跟三我們來看到性別教育這邊要有請教育部但是司法院這邊請稍等一下教育部"},{"start":410.233,"end":429.613,"text":"很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉所以才會出現我剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言但最近發生關於金門縣京城國中這個命題的爭議我相信教育部是非常清楚的我不確定教育部你們現在知不知道他們調查委員會現在的結果是什麼對於這個老師"},{"start":431.594,"end":452.944,"text":"我們了解目前他們的性評調查小組是還在調查中但是對他們的教評會已經針對他們這一次的那個命題還有審題的疏失已經對教師有進行記過的處分那命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月盡待他們性評調查小組的調查結果好我不知道你手上有沒有看過這個老師"},{"start":454.565,"end":476.199,"text":"他從109年開始這是我們跟你們調的資料我們調近3到5年這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教的書他所出的期中考也好還是期末考的考題也好我完全沒有辦法念裡面的文字太過噁心我要告訴你們的是從109年開始這個老師就在學校的"},{"start":476.499,"end":494.364,"text":"考題裡面出現這樣的題目甚至更可怕的是這個人還得過十年優良教師如同你剛剛說的教評會目前我認為對他是輕輕放下只有停聘六個月而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題我認為這絕對不是個案這絕對是累犯"},{"start":497.225,"end":512.69,"text":"那所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會你們也會尊重地方政府但我要說這個事情如果不是有家長爆料出來我們沒有人會知道原來在金門的京城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師他出這樣的考題"},{"start":515.239,"end":530.967,"text":"是跟委員報告剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘那至於這個老師的不是任處分會最後在性評調查的結果之後會再進行一次的一個教評會的一個審議教育部有追蹤進度嗎"},{"start":532.428,"end":548.986,"text":"我們持續在追蹤當中那因為地方主管機關針對學校的一些性平調查的一個結果他們都應該提供相關的一些資訊輔導還有監督的這樣的一個機制那另外我們教育部在我們的性平會的課程組目前也有針對這個案件預計提供我們的課程組做一個討論那未來會針對各個"},{"start":554.492,"end":580.073,"text":"學校他們在進行一些考題的一些命題的部分要怎麼樣多一個精進的改進我們會在課程處做一個進一步的討論當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯所以你剛才回應我也看到了你說從個案看通案但是我也要說這個個案我認為他的問題會很嚴重要拜託教育部持續的關切那其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這個事情發生之後他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說"},{"start":581.334,"end":607.563,"text":"今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育但我要提的是其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了很多有心的老師也好或者是家長啊志工其實他們真的會主動學習確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好但是就是有像這樣子的駭群之馬讓很多原本很用心很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念的老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見所以"},{"start":608.203,"end":624.094,"text":"我认为除了对像这样不良的个案我们要积极进行辅导跟协助并且做出正确的裁处之外我们也要对于现场第一线非常认真工作而且贯彻性平理念在不同课程里面老师给予奖励好吗是谢谢委员的指教"},{"start":624.574,"end":645.503,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來看一下 教育部請回 謝謝好 接下來來看一下司法院這邊關於司法院過勞環境等一下我們要討論到預算的部分我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分我們今天不討論個案但是從他們的個案看見目前整個司法體系的過勞那在"},{"start":650.085,"end":671.19,"text":"許院長卸任前他的一個公開信他就呼籲希望從制度面人力面給予司法院更多的協助期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改院警"},{"start":671.61,"end":690.974,"text":"我想知道在新任院長上任之前目前我們是不是已經開始收集很多第一線的聲音然後也開始研擬相關的方案甚至我們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於原額的部分或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分關於改善這個司法環境的部分"},{"start":691.514,"end":713.735,"text":"非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題確實現在在司法院就是各法院所面臨的人力非常的短缺所以說現在的法院法官第一線法官工作過勞的情形很嚴重我們的總緣合法一萬五千馬上就已經要用盡了"},{"start":714.415,"end":733.25,"text":"所以我剛才會說有沒有跟人總進一步討論就是先前的時候有和那個人總去那個接洽齁那但是那個人總他希望我們就是能夠做那個原額評鑑啊那這是一個很大的工程所以說那個司法院先前的時候就委託了那個學術機構幫我們做那個組織診斷那這個組織診斷做出來呢事實上需要調高的這個數額非常高齁所以說我們還要繼續的因為目前是有相關數字要調高很多對不對對"},{"start":744.258,"end":761.446,"text":"那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分那跟您分享我相信你應該有在看這個臉書專頁叫做台灣書記官工會他們的臉書專頁其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦那我就不再贅述了那不過我想你剛剛的回應非常的正向最後結論我們就簡單的來說下一張"},{"start":764.207,"end":789.14,"text":"就是新任司法院院長到任之前我認為很多過勞的環境透過你們盤點第一線的困境我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言正是這些人員流動所隱含背後的困境包含他們剛剛分享那個逃難指數看起來很諷刺看起來有點"},{"start":791.101,"end":801.295,"text":"黑色笑話的感覺但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央的政府這邊給予協助的好不好我們就一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時35分）謝謝主席。有請司法院，謝謝。"],["主席：請王副秘書長。"],["陳委員培瑜：副秘書長，早安。我們就快速進入今天的主題，首先，我想要跟你討論的是跟騷法第三條有關跟騷行為的定義，還有構成要件，其實剛剛思瑤委員已經說了，我們認為這個條件太過嚴苛。目前你們是用條列式的方法，我認為它沒有概括條款，我就舉一些我們很容易在網路上找到的例子，跟你討論為什麼我認為它過於嚴苛。在投影片左手邊彩色的內容，我今天分享的內容都是來自於一個粉絲專頁，他叫做「直男行為研究所」。如果我們要認真研究所謂跟騷行為有什麼樣不同的樣態不在你們的條列當中，這個粉絲專頁絕對是研究的寶庫，但這個寶庫絕對是負面教材，所以我才要跟你討論為什麼我認為相關條件過於嚴苛。左邊這一張是行為人，他在他自己的臉書上一直發只有被害人看得到的貼文，他也沒有直接貼給某人，他就是一直貼，但是我們在臉書發文的時候可以設定只有誰看得到，這個樣態你應該是清楚的，他也沒有強迫對方要看，可是確實造成被害人很大的心理壓力，這是第一種樣態。第二種在右上方這一張，行為人他不斷傳訊息給對方，不斷的單方面傳遞訊息，但他很厲害，他的訊息不見得只有跟性有關，它可能是各式各樣的訊息，偶爾穿插一些與性及性別議題有關的訊息，一樣造成對方很大的壓力，但是他在你們條列當中可能就不符合。第三個在右下方這一張，有一些行為人並沒有持續或反覆去騷擾特定人，但是他卻持續或反覆騷擾不同的人，一樣造成這些不同的人都有很大的心理壓力，因為假設我收到了像這樣一個簡訊或者是發文的訊息找到我，結果我去網路上一撈，發現這個行為人他可能做出像這樣的行為。","我今天舉的只是三種樣態，其實都跟你們條列式的有很大的落差，所以我想要跟副秘書長討論的是：第一個，可以對當事人騷擾的行為方法有很多，但是因為跟騷行為構成要件很侷限，而且沒有概括條款，導致於漏接很多當事人的個案，相信你剛剛也看到了我舉的這些例子。第二個，目前的條文只處理了性及性別有關的跟蹤騷擾，但是跟性及性別無關的騷擾，對於當事人可能造成的傷害未必比較輕對嗎？從我剛剛舉的這些例子，你大概可以想像。第三個，目前法規中也沒有規範針對反覆或是持續對不特定的人做出的跟騷。針對我剛剛舉例這三種樣態，我想知道副秘書長還是內政部要上來回答你們怎麼看？還是要請內政部回答，謝謝。我剛剛舉例的這些樣態，我相信你沒有研究，但也請相信我沒有研究，我完全是因為今天的題目到網路上去找，結果發現非常容易找到我剛剛說的這些樣態，我想要聽聽看你們的說法。"],["馬次長士元：如果以內政部的立場的話，像剛剛委員所舉的樣態，我們基本上從寬認定，在告誡書的部分警方都可以來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：也可以處理？"],["馬次長士元：可以處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是不在今天可以討論後續修法的範圍嗎？我們有沒有機會回去看所謂概括條款的部分？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，因為跟性與性別有關的定義事實上也是相對比較模糊一點，但是如果對被害人造成壓力，或是剛剛我們在報告的時候有提到無論是有所違反對方的意願或者是影響他的生活，基本上我們都可以寬列我們對於告誡書發放的行動，用這個方式來嚇阻加害人在這方面的行為。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是就修法的角度，我認為我們應該有機會，如同你剛剛講的，現在其他的法規範可能有相關可以適用的可以協助被害人去處理這個樣態，但是如果有機會放進跟騷法，我認為對於一般民眾的理解可能會更加直接，當然我覺得這可以留待後續假設我們有修法機會時再來討論。"],["馬次長士元：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來我們來看一下跟騷法第十二條有提到所謂跟騷保護令的核發內容，其中第三款有提到可以命相對人完成所謂的治療性處遇計畫，剛剛吳思瑤委員也有問到這一題，目前是讓被害人墊付相關鑑定費用，對不對？我們找到你們的統計結果，這是司法院自己做的統計資料。從跟騷法施行到現在為止，地方法院作出所謂治療性處遇的裁定數量極其稀少，這個數字這麼少，我想知道是因為當事人（被害人）需要先墊付費用，所以他沒有提出申請？還是他們提出申請之後，司法院的法官裁定不需要作出治療性處遇計畫？我不知道這些數字背後代表的意義是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個問題我請廳長來回復。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["林廳長俊廷：跟委員報告，剛剛有提到處遇計畫是現行保護令執行面的問題，因為加害人是否需要處遇計畫的裁定可能需要鑑定，曾經有發生過案例沒有鑑定，是因為當事人本身有精神疾病方面的就醫資料，所以法院就可以直接裁定，除此之外他必須鑑定，關於鑑定，因為我們是準用民事訴訟法，這必須由當事人負擔。"],["陳委員培瑜：對嘛，所以我的猜測是對的，有可能是因為當事人必須要先墊付這些費用，所以他就沒有提出申請。"],["林廳長俊廷：對，有關當事人墊付的部分，這在現行法制就沒有辦法突破，之前我們在跟內政部及衛福部協商的時候，其實我們三個機關都有討論過這個問題，內政部也承諾這部分他們會來改善。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們希望有積極的進度，好不好？謝謝。","從跟騷我們來看性別教育，這邊要有請教育部，司法院請稍等一下。很多非常荒謬的發言可能是來自於他對性平的觀念不熟悉，所以才會出現我剛剛舉例這麼多荒謬的發言，最近發生關於金門縣金城國中命題的爭議，我相信教育部是非常清楚的，我不確定教育部知不知道現在他們調查委員會對於這個老師的調查結果是什麼？"],["許副司長嘉倩：就我們了解，目前他們的性平調查小組還在調查中，但是他們的教評會已經針對這一次的命題及審題的疏失對教師進行記過的處分，命題的教師目前是先暫時停聘六個月，靜待他們性平調查小組的調查結果。"],["陳委員培瑜：我不知道你手上有沒有相關資料，這個老師從109年開始……這是我們跟你們調的資料，我們調近三到五年的資料，這個老師他不管在哪一個學年教書，他所出的期中考也好，還是期末考的考題也好，我完全沒有辦法唸裡面的文字，因為太過噁心！我要告訴你們的是，從109年開始，這個老師就在學校的考題裡面出現這樣的題目，甚至更可怕的是，這個人還得過十年優良教師。如同你剛剛說的，我認為教評會目前對他是輕輕放下，只有停聘六個月，而標榜得過十年優秀教師的老師一直出現這樣的考題，我認為這絕對不是個案，這絕對是累犯。所以你們可以接受目前這樣的說法嗎？我當然知道你們要尊重學校教評會，你們也會尊重地方政府，但我要說這件事情如果不是有家長爆料出來，沒有人會知道原來在金門的金城國中竟然有這麼一個十年優良教師會出這樣的考題。"],["許副司長嘉倩：跟委員報告，剛剛所謂的暫時停聘六個月，只是因為在調查期間有必要讓他先暫時停聘，至於這個老師的不適任處分，在最終性平調查結果之後會再進行一次教評會的審議，那……"],["陳委員培瑜：教育部有追蹤進度嗎？"],["許副司長嘉倩：有，我們持續在追蹤當中，因為地方主管機關針對學校的性平調查結果，都應該提供相關的諮詢輔導以及監督的機制。另外，教育部目前也有針對這一個案件，預計提到我們性平會的課程組進行討論，針對各個學校考題命題未來要怎麼樣精進或改進，我們會在課程組做進一步的討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然從個案看通案絕對是教育部該做的事情沒有錯，從你剛剛的回應我也看到了，你說要從個案看通案，但是我也要說這個個案的問題會很嚴重，要拜託教育部持續關切，其實也有很多第一線現場老師在這件事情發生之後，他們紛紛在自己的社群媒體上說，今年暑假想必研習重點就會是性平教育。但我要提的是，其實教育部推性平教育已經很多年了，很多有心的老師也好，或者是家長、志工，他們真的會主動學習，確實我們看到第一線教育現場的性平教育狀況越來越好，但就是有像這樣子的害群之馬，讓很多原本很用心、很用力在教導學生正確性平觀念老師的權益或者是他們的樣態沒有被看見，所以我認為除了對於像這樣不良的個案，我們要積極進行輔導、協助並做出正確的裁處之外，同時也要對於現場第一線非常認真工作，而且貫徹性平理念在不同課程裡面的老師給予獎勵好嗎？"],["許副司長嘉倩：是，謝謝委員的指教。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，教育部請回。","接下來來看一下關於司法院的過勞環境，等一下我們要討論到預算的部分，我知道這個過勞的環境絕對不是一朝一夕可以改變的，但是我們來看一下針對士林地方法院的部分，我們今天不討論個案，但是從他們的個案可以看見目前整個司法體系的過勞，在許院長卸任前的公開信當中，他就呼籲，希望從制度面、人力面，給予司法院更多的協助，期待新任的院長可以持續投注更多的心力，積極改善司法院同仁的工作負擔以及環境，讓司法同仁有合理工作負荷的司改願景。我想知道，在新任院長上任之前，目前你們是不是已經開始蒐集很多第一線的聲音，然後也開始研擬相關的方案，甚至你們有沒有機會開始跟人總去討論關於員額的部分，或是跟行政院討論關於資源分配的部分，也就是關於改善司法環境的部分？"],["王副秘書長梅英：非常感謝委員垂詢這個問題，確實現在司法院、各法院都面臨人力非常的短缺，所以現在第一線的法院法官，工作過勞的情形很嚴重，而我們的總員額法的1萬5,000名，馬上就已經要用盡了……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我剛才會說，有沒有跟人總進一步討論？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有的，先前有和人總接洽，但是人總希望我們能夠做員額評鑑，這是一個很大的工程，所以先前司法院就委託了學術機構幫我們做組織診斷，這個組織診斷做出來後，事實上，需要調高的數額非常高，所以我們還要繼續……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以目前是有相關數字，而且要調高很多，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：那就需要好好討論相關資源或者是人力的部分。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：跟您分享一下，我相信你應該有在看這一個臉書專頁，叫做台灣書記官工會，在他們的臉書專頁中，其實他們都有反映第一線基層員工的辛苦，我就不再贅述。不過，我想你剛剛的回應是非常的正向。","最後的結論，簡單來說，就是新任司法院院長到任之前，我認為很多過勞的環境，透過你們盤點第一線的困境，我覺得後續真的有機會提供給新任的司法院院長作為改善過勞環境的依據。接下來就是要拜託你們持續參考第一線工作人員的建言，正視這些人員流動所隱含的背後困境，包含他們剛剛分享的那個逃難指數，看起來很諷刺，看起來有點黑色笑話的感覺，但我想這確實是所有司法人員他們很需要透過中央政府這邊給予協助的，我們就一起努力，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra 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次長 是不是這樣"},{"start":316.022,"end":330.041,"text":"謝謝委員 我們一起努力好 這個你過去一起完成我們請這一體互相協助你們要用的更多啦用力要更多 好不好好 謝謝謝謝鄭偏財委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時29分）主席、各位委員。有請內政部次長，還有法務部次長。"],["主席：請黃次長，還有馬次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：不是！你們要用力更多，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","我現在先處理會議時間，如果上午的議程到12點還沒有結束的話，我們中午就不休息了，上午會議的時間就繼續進行。","接著，請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}},{"id":"161924","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161924","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a10b2d4d55f71c73c330f39aabc08752512766cb13dea9389472786d5621fa9625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:21:38 - 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我們請部長好 要請部長"},{"start":13.227,"end":39.748,"text":"黃委員好 部長剛剛張委員在詢問的我剛剛有上網看了台電每一天的發電量多少那他是燃油燃氣或者是氣墊共生他的比例在網路上面都有所以等一下請張委員其實也可以在網路上面搜尋一下另外當然就是說空污的這個議題對張化的委員來講其實我們都非常的關心尤其是張化"},{"start":40.789,"end":54.579,"text":"北邊有這個中火台中火力發電廠那南邊有六清那每一天到底這個火力發電廠或六清這個發電所造成的這個空污的部分那剛剛我也聽到部長講說你們都有在監測那當然這個污染的"},{"start":59.922,"end":67.168,"text":"這個源頭有很多啦剛剛有特別提到其實固定污染源和移動污染源那彰化這邊其實我還有一個議題我想請教部長的就是說除了你們有去監測這兩個就是說這"},{"start":75.954,"end":99.747,"text":"這個周邊火力發電廠或者是六輕這周邊的這個空污的狀況你們應該是每一天每每時時都在監測嘛對不對時時都在監測那我想請教就是說這幾天從這個上個禮拜這個河山廠停機之後那到現在那個整個中部地區的這個空瓶的部分是不是有明顯的變化"},{"start":101.096,"end":116.299,"text":"報告委員這個其實沒有任何的波動但是每天的這個波動會因為氣象的因素的變化有一些差別那目前來看的話我們從5月17號之後到目前為止空品沒有顯著的變化是都是良好等級"},{"start":117.88,"end":133.365,"text":"那也有可能是最近這幾天下雨的關係所以在這邊本席也要求就是環境部針對這一部分應該是實時監測如果有一旦沒有下雨然後整個空氣品質狀況是有顯著的差異"},{"start":137.566,"end":153.203,"text":"明顯的變差我也希望就是說這個不是只有環境部的這個責任應該能源這邊或者是台電我覺得都應該要大家都要有責任那另外就是說我看到一個另外一個就是說"},{"start":154.304,"end":170.858,"text":"在之前我有詢問過我們部長就是說移動污染源的這個部分然後可能很多來自於汽機車那這個汽機車的這個污染其實我們也希望就是說這個老舊的汽機車我們也希望就是能夠逐年汰換嘛那這個其實也是一個這個"},{"start":174.762,"end":185.733,"text":"空氣污染一個很大的一個主要原因另外就是說在我們環境部在之前也有在鼓勵工業用的這個鍋爐鍋爐的這個鈦換可能由燃油換為這個燃氣那我想請教就是說像這"},{"start":194.201,"end":210.209,"text":"這個部分你們目前做的狀況是怎樣我知道說好像是2030年希望就是說全部燃油是不是可以全部換為燃氣那這個狀況你們目前做的這個進度是怎樣 報告委員那個淨零的策略裡面有一項就是所謂的"},{"start":211.049,"end":237.139,"text":"非電力的製造業這種所謂的鍋爐全部改換成燃氣這個是我們既定的政策那我舉例例如說像我們目前的空瓶從103年的24維克PM2.5降到現在12.8其實如果以中部來看的話最大的貢獻其實有一個當年那個李應元署長當署長的時候他就是花了很多空污費去做這樣的一個改善其實這個成效是非常好的當然我知道"},{"start":237.699,"end":256.355,"text":"以彰化來說的話還有那我們未來呢應該會在逐步的加強管制的力道希望那個管換的這個機會換的速度可以更快一點點好那我們希望就是說不只是這個中部地區的空污的部分其實不只是只有中火啦或者是六清"},{"start":257.316,"end":272.554,"text":"也許還有其他的這個這個中融其實中融也是一個很大的這個空氣污染的一個這個非常大的一個主要原因啦對啊那像這部分的話你們針對中融的部分你們有做什麼樣的"},{"start":273.416,"end":290.335,"text":"要求他們要做什麼樣的這個改善我們目前其實我有請我同仁找到一個例如說因為中榮也算是泛國營事業以目前國營事業113年的排放量跟105年相比台電是減72是最多的那中榮減得比較少大概只有18%"},{"start":292.257,"end":309.569,"text":"中鋼呢就40%這個排污染的量減少非常的多那其實這個部分呢我們應該給好的要給墾丁更多如果像這樣他跟別的例如說跟中鋼比他18中鋼已經做到40那我們會再督促他能不能做出更有效的一個做法"},{"start":309.929,"end":325.248,"text":"所以我覺得就是這個空氣汙染的這個大戶其實我覺得你們應該要多用力一些其實不只只有中火其實我剛剛提到的這個中榮的這個部分其實也是一個非常這個空"},{"start":326.75,"end":340.879,"text":"空氣污染的這個非常嚴重的一個一個廠家所以我們也希望如果說你跟中鋼來比的話中鋼都可以做到這個百分之四十那為什麼中榮沒辦法做到所以我覺得環境部針對這部分應該還要再加強"},{"start":342.58,"end":364.535,"text":"OK 好另外我想請教就是說去年監察院有針對我們環境部就是有關這個探定價制度就是一直好像沒有一個比較明確的這個制定下來這個探定價一直都沒辦法很明確那另外就是說2050的這個淨零排放第二期的這個目標"},{"start":367.117,"end":387.214,"text":"好像也這個2025年第二期都快結束了這個目標好像好像還沒辦法去達到那我想請教部長針對這個監察院這邊的一個糾正那你們要怎麼去達成這樣子第二期的目標那另外就是有關碳定價的這個制度你們什麼時候會定下來"},{"start":388.414,"end":402.08,"text":"因為探聽架其實是今年1月1號開始有探費開始實施所以探聽架已經完成了這個是非常艱鉅的一個挑戰跟委員報告其實監察院並沒有糾正是調查目前其實我們的減量係數我們上一個2022年是跟2005年是減1.77我們最新的數字2023年已經減到4.64我們目前看2024初估可能會有到5到6%左右"},{"start":415.345,"end":437.53,"text":"那2025就今年我們因為那個要整個事情發生了之後要隔一年多經過所有的數據統計完才能出來所以我們目前推估2025年當然要看今年的景氣好不好目前我們推估應該有機會到8到9%左右所以當然離我們原來的階段改進目標希望到10一點點差距但是我們的確在減量的速度上"},{"start":439.051,"end":451.544,"text":"部長我想請教就是說你們有關這個2050的淨零我相信這是我們的目標嘛那之前也有特別提到就是說可能也因應這個美國關稅的這個議題那會不會因為這樣子然後有所這個會"},{"start":458.332,"end":464.739,"text":"這個步驟或者是這個時程是不是會有所做一個調整那另外就是說之前我們是針對500家針對500家去做那我不知道說你們針對這部分你們會不會做一個調整"},{"start":473.028,"end":497.235,"text":"幫委員第一個是說因為全世界目前沒有一個國家因為關稅或是說美國川普總統有任何的改變所以目前我們堅定的照這個速度走但是其實因為我們也知道我們現在其實要收碳費的企業依照去年排碳量統計現在剩下252家大概400多個工廠而已有稍微變少一點點目前我們是針對例如說有些會受到關稅影響的產業"},{"start":499.016,"end":510.922,"text":"那我們會給他特別的輔導甚至給他高碳洩漏係數的折扣所以這個目前呢但不過他每年都要提不是說現在就給他大傻逼這樣不是我們有一套的這個節奏所以我們會幫助產業度過這個難關是好那"},{"start":514.504,"end":532.16,"text":"部長 我想請教 就是說你之前也有特別提到就是說高溫 台灣的高溫的這個議題那你本身也有提到就是說 環境部預計在6月要成立一個高溫對策聯盟那7月預計要推出高溫防護地圖"},{"start":533.641,"end":550.303,"text":"好那其實我看到這個的時候我想說這個好像跟那個氣象局好像比較有關合作一起合作就環境部跟我們氣象局這邊是一起合作的對還有很多的部會是因為跟委員報告因為以前我們對於這種所謂的氣候變遷的東西"},{"start":552.225,"end":577.374,"text":"紙上談兵比較多啦我們是希望倒過來拿這個高溫試看看說我們把一次的很熱很熱的那幾天當成像颱風來的樣子一樣然後我們是不是可以實際來演練那演練完之後我們寫成明年的規劃案來執行這些事情好那像這樣子的話你們這個高溫對策聯盟你是有哪幾個單位是一起合作的"},{"start":578.527,"end":606.277,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前會包括就是政府各相關部會那也會邀集民間企業那也會邀集民間團體希望是說大家一起採取行動是是所以所以如果說從六月份如果你們成立這個高溫對策聯盟或者是七月這個高溫防護地圖那你們會希望就是說相關單位譬如說勞動部啊或者是相關企業在看到這樣子一個高溫"},{"start":607.177,"end":633.618,"text":"的部分然後可以希望企業怎麼去做或者是對於在室外工作的這些勞工能夠做什麼樣的防護你們是希望能夠透過這樣的一個防護地圖然後能夠給予什麼樣的一個建議或者是希望就譬如說勞動部如果看到這樣子的一個高溫的狀況的話那是不是未來有可能去放這個高溫架或者是"},{"start":635.279,"end":651.19,"text":"報告委員因為其實這個高溫以戶外的勞工為例他其實是遇到高溫應該有適當的一個休息時間那以我自己是氣象專業過去氣象專業的話我們認為台灣要放高溫假因為只有中午那幾個小時啦其實是有點困難啦"},{"start":651.73,"end":674.611,"text":"那其實我們會希望保障國人的安全健康甚至說我們這次還有針對弱勢貧窮的族群特別是年長者因為他可能經濟狀況沒辦法那麼好去換那個節能的冷氣那他因此就不敢吹冷氣要省錢反而造成他的很大的健康影響我們希望用大數據的方式把這些族群撈出來給他特別的服務"},{"start":675.051,"end":686.237,"text":"所以我們其實這次是導過來用行動來找出一些可行的做法然後明年提出一個實際上可行的方案所以你們這個是跨部會的可能就環境部勞動部還有衛福部然後"},{"start":692.15,"end":707.663,"text":"地方政府也一起進來所以會有一些成效的話或者是跟民眾比較有切身關係或者是你剛剛講的針對長者的部分也許他可以換什麼樣的東西的話這個應該也是在明年度"},{"start":708.143,"end":727.821,"text":"才會有這樣實際的行動今年我們就是把實際上例如說像一個假設有幾天可能超過38度了那幾天我們就特別來做演練像颱風一樣我們缺什麼缺什麼缺什麼然後誰還做得不夠我們就提出一個檢討方案希望明年有這個經驗實際上來做不然的話我們過去可能都是紙上談兵"},{"start":728.942,"end":754.578,"text":"好那當然我們也第一次啦應該這個算是第一次政府這樣子投入那這個也是因應我們的氣候韌性所以我們希望說部長以你的專業然後提供給其他的部會或者是地方政府也許可以提供給勞動其實我第一次看到這個我第一個想到可能就是在高溫底下工作的這些"},{"start":755.499,"end":776.019,"text":"勞工啦所以這個也許對這些勞工是會有一個很大的一個幫助因為其實抗高溫已經變成是一個產業我們就發現台灣很多民間的廠商他們都做出來例如說夏天有一個冷氣衣穿在身上就不會那麼的熱或是說頭盔它有一些可以如果你快要中暑的"},{"start":776.759,"end":785.764,"text":"他就會給你警告,那樣的一個方式我們希望把這個引進來給那個業界他們可以自己多購買這樣的東西這個也是一個高溫的產業,希望他們可以自己起來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":812,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時21分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，剛才張委員在詢問的，我剛剛有上網看台電每一天的發電量是多少，不管是燃油、燃氣或者是汽電共生，它的比例在網路上面都有，所以等一下請張委員其實也可以在網路上面搜尋一下。另外，當然空污的議題對彰化的委員來講，我們都非常的關心，尤其是彰化北邊有中火──台中火力發電廠，南邊有六輕，每一天火力發電廠或六輕發電所造成空污的部分，剛剛我也聽到部長講說你們都有在監測。當然有關污染的源頭有很多，剛剛有特別提到固定污染源、移動污染源，在彰化這邊其實還有一個議題，我想請教部長，除了你們有去監測這兩個火力發電廠或者是六輕周邊的空污狀況，你們應該是每一天時時都在監測，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是、是。"],["黃委員秀芳：時時都在監測。我想請教，這幾天從上個禮拜核三廠停機之後，到現在整個中部地區空品的部分是不是有明顯的變化？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實沒有任何的波動，但是每天的波動會因為氣象因素的變化有一些差別，目前來看的話，我們從5月17號之後到目前為止，空品沒有顯著的變化。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["彭部長啓明：都是良好等級。"],["黃委員秀芳：是、好，也有可能是最近這幾天下雨……"],["彭部長啓明：天氣比較好……"],["黃委員秀芳：下雨的關係嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以在這邊本席也要求環境部針對這一部分應該是時時監測，一旦沒有下雨，整個空氣品質狀況有顯著差異、明顯變差，我也希望……這個不是只有環境部的責任，不管是能源這邊或者是台電，我覺得大家都應該要有責任。我看到另外一個問題，在之前我有詢問過我們部長有關移動污染源的部分，可能很多來自於汽機車，有關汽機車的污染，我們也希望老舊的汽機車能夠逐年汰換，其實也是空氣污染一個很大的主要原因。另外，環境部在之前也有鼓勵工業用鍋爐的汰換，可能由燃油換為燃氣，我想請教像這一部分，你們目前做的狀況是怎樣？我知道好像是希望2030年將燃油全部換為燃氣，關於這個狀況，你們目前做的進度是怎樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，淨零策略裡面有一項就是所謂的非電力製造業的鍋爐全部改換成燃氣，這是我們既定的政策，我舉例，例如目前的空品從103年24微克PM2.5降到現在12.8，如果以中部來看的話，最大的貢獻其實是當年李應元當署長時，他花了很多空污費去做這樣的改善，這個成效是非常好的。當然，我知道以彰化來說的話還有，我們未來應該會再逐步加強管制的力道，希望換的機會及速度可以更快一點點。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，中部地區的空污部分其實不是只有中火或者六輕，也許還有其他像中龍，其實中龍也是一個很大的空氣污染主要原因。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：像這部分的話，你們針對中龍有要求他們要做什麼樣的改善？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前其實我有請同仁找到一個資料，因為中龍也算是泛國營事業。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["彭部長啓明：以目前國營事業113年排放量和105年相比，台電減72%是最多的，中龍減得較少，大概只有18%，中鋼有40%，污染的量減少非常多，其實我們對於好的部分應該要給予更多肯定。如果像這樣，它跟別的相比，例如中鋼，它是18%，中鋼已經做到40%，我們會再督促它能不能做出更有效的作法。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以對於空氣污染的大戶，其實你們應該要多用力一些，不是只有中火，其實我剛剛提到的中龍這部分也是一個空氣污染非常嚴重的廠家，所以我們也希望，如果是跟中鋼來比的話，中鋼都可以做到40%，為什麼中龍沒辦法做到？所以環境部針對這部分應該還要再加強，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：OK！好。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，去年監察院有針對環境部碳定價制度一直好像沒有明確地制定下來，就是一直都沒辦法很明確，另外就是2050淨零排放第2期的目標，現在是2025年，第2期都快結束了，這個目標好像還沒辦法達到，我想請教部長，針對監察院的糾正，你們要怎麼去達成第2期的目標？另外就是碳定價的制度，你們什麼時候會定下來？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為碳定價其實是今年1月1號碳費開始實施，所以碳定價已經完成，這是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰，也跟委員報告，其實監察院並沒有糾正，是調查，目前我們的減量係數，上一個在2022年跟2005年相比減了1.77，我們最新的數字在2023年已經減到4.64，我們目前看到2024，初估可能會有到5到6%左右，2025就是今年，因為要整個事情發生之後隔一年多，經由所有的數據統計完才能出來，所以我們目前推估，當然要看今年的景氣好不好，目前我們推估2025年應該有機會到8至9%左右，當然離原來的階段管制目標希望到10%有一點點差距，但是我們的確在減量的速度上。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，部長，有關2050的淨零，我相信這是我們的目標，之前有特別提到可能也因應美國關稅的議題，會不會因為這樣子而對於步驟或時程有所調整？另外，之前我們是針對500家去做，不知道對這部分你們會不會做一個調整？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，全世界目前沒有一個國家因為關稅或是美國川普總統有任何的改變，所以目前我們堅定的……"],["黃委員秀芳：還是照這樣子的速度在執行？"],["彭部長啓明：還是照這個速度走，但是因為我們也知道現在要收碳費的企業依照去年排碳量統計，其實現在剩下252家，大概四百多個工廠而已，有稍微變少一點點。目前我們是針對例如有些會受到關稅影響的產業，我們會給予特別的輔導，甚至給予高碳洩漏係數的折扣，不過它每年都要提，不是現在就大撒幣，我們有一套節奏，所以我們會幫助產業渡過這個難關。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教，你之前也有特別提到臺灣高溫的議題，環境部預計在6月要成立一個高溫對策聯盟，7月要推出高溫防護地圖，其實我看到的時候，覺得這個好像跟氣象署比較有關。"],["彭部長啓明：一起合作。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是環境部跟氣象署是一起合作的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，還有很多的部會。跟委員報告，我們以前對於所謂氣候變遷的東西，紙上談兵比較多，我們是希望倒過來，拿高溫的議題試看看，我們把一次很熱、很熱的那幾天當成像颱風來的樣子實際來演練，演練完之後我們寫成明年的規劃案來執行這些事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。像這樣子的話，你們這個高溫對策聯盟有哪幾個單位一起合作？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，目前會包括政府各相關部會，也會邀集民間企業、民間團體，希望大家一起採取行動。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。所以6月份成立高溫對策聯盟或者7月推動高溫防護地圖之後，你們希望相關單位譬如勞動部或相關企業看到高溫的部分可以怎麼去做？或者是對於在室外工作的勞工能夠做什麼樣的防護？你們希望透過這樣的防護地圖，能夠給予什麼樣的建議？或者譬如希望勞動部如果看到高溫的狀況的話，是不是未來有可能放高溫假或者……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實以戶外的勞工為例，當他們遇到高溫的時候應該有適當的休息時間。以我自己過去的氣象專業來講，我們認為臺灣要放高溫假，因為只有中午那幾個小時其實是有點困難，我們會希望保障國人的安全、健康。甚至我們這次還有針對弱勢、貧窮的族群，特別是年長者，因為他們可能經濟狀況沒那麼好，沒辦法換節能的冷氣，因此為了省錢就不敢吹冷氣，反而造成很大的健康影響，我們希望用大數據的方式把這些族群撈出來，給他們特別的服務。所以我們這次是倒過來，用行動找出可行的做法，在明年提出一個實際上可行的方案。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們這個是跨部會的？"],["彭部長啓明：對，跨部會。"],["黃委員秀芳：可能就是環境部……"],["彭部長啓明：勞動部、還有衛福部，然後地方政府也一起都有進來。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以會有一些成效的話，或者跟民眾比較有切身關係，或者是你剛剛講的針對長者的部分，也許他們可以換什麼樣的東西的話，應該也是在明年度才會有實際的行動？"],["彭部長啓明：對，今年我們就是把實際上……假設有幾天可能超過38度了，我們就在那幾天特別做演練，像颱風一樣，找到我們缺什麼、缺什麼、缺什麼，還有誰還做得不夠，我們就提出一個檢討方案，希望明年有這個經驗實際上來做，不然的話，我們過去可能都是紙上談兵。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。當然，這個應該算是第一次政府這樣子投入，也是因應氣候韌性，所以我們希望部長以你的專業提供給其他的部會或者地方政府，也許可以提供給勞動……其實我第一次看到這個，第一個想到的就是在高溫底下工作的勞工，也許對這些勞工會有很大的幫助。"],["彭部長啓明：對。其實抗高溫已經變成是一個產業，我們發現臺灣很多民間的廠商做出來一些產品，例如夏天有冷氣衣穿在身上就不會那麼熱，或是如果快要中暑，頭上的頭盔就會發出警告，我們希望引進這樣的方式讓業界可以多購買這樣的東西，這個也是一個高溫的產業，希望他們可以自己起來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝。","接下來請林淑芬委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161923","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161923","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a8421f1eeb71b6e4fee4a52ea614c3ed712766cb13dea93898f4122116dc310355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:15:42 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":26.267,"text":"我們請部長部長好部長我最近常看到在這個各個媒體裡面有提到說如果次在衝突的時候那會陷入一個沒有秩序的狀況那他們就要拿著他們被配發的武器要去做什麼事或做什麼事"},{"start":27.088,"end":41.885,"text":"我想藉由這個質詢的平台要跟大家說如果有發生武力衝突的時候我們的司法制度照樣運行我們的社會制度一樣在運行我們要盡所有的可能性確保說在衝突的時間"},{"start":43.346,"end":71.078,"text":"非軍事的地方能夠照往常一樣有秩序在衝突期間的所有的罪行會被追訴在衝突期間的所有罪行會被起訴也會受到懲治那在軍人的部分因為我們已經有新的軍法的制度引進所以包含軍禁還有所有的這些秩序都能夠被有效的維持部長我這樣子的理解對不對我想我們"},{"start":73.431,"end":98.922,"text":"這是一個韌性這是一個韌性我們希望能夠保有這樣的一個韌性這是我們的目標我相信我們也一定會做到就像烏克蘭一樣儘管面臨俄羅斯的這樣子大漢數倍的攻擊襲擊但他們國內的社會秩序一樣穩定所有的刑事責任不會因為在戰爭之中就會被忘記那一樣會被追訴"},{"start":99.642,"end":116.626,"text":"那我相信我們台灣未來也有這樣的韌性所以如果有國人同胞有這樣的擔憂的話那我可以在這邊跟大家說包含國防部包含內政部包含我們的所有司法單位只要在衝突的期間的所有事情都一樣會被追究那是第一個部分"},{"start":116.946,"end":142.871,"text":"那第二部分我想要針對G-SOMIA或者是情報相關的部分來請教一下部長部長您知道現在行政院在5月29號大概會把擴大特殊查核的部分應該會有出爐我認為這是我們從去年開始不斷在強調安全核可的這一個擴大範圍也好或者是針對這個安全的部分的討論的一個很好的一個"},{"start":144.271,"end":159.436,"text":"應該說一個回饋就是說這一年半來那我們希望說至少是在安全背景查核上面那行政院總算也是第一個把這樣子的擴大那我想請教一下為什麼講G-SOMIA的部分是因為"},{"start":160.791,"end":178.47,"text":"日非兩國在今年大家看到在這個抗中的部分有啟動這個軍事情報分享的協商我想請教部長我們有沒有可能跟日本或者是跟菲律賓來有類似這樣子的討論"},{"start":182.987,"end":212.017,"text":"我只能夠說我們有這樣的期待那至於詳細的情況我想不適宜在公開的場合做一個說明那怎麼樣才可以滿足這樣子的期待我想首先反求諸己就是說我們國家內部的安全的這個自己的保密或者是防諜的狀況也沒有辦法符合情報交換的基準不然的話我們得到最新的資訊假如也被洩露出去的話"},{"start":212.677,"end":227.474,"text":"那我們就不但沒有資格進入G-SOMIA甚至可能會傷害到我們的夢邦所以為什麼我們說我們的安全核可的這個機制它必須是要盡快來做一個有一個統一的規範那之前"},{"start":227.534,"end":249.775,"text":"之前我有請教過部長說因為我們現在在各個不同的政府部門因為如果要統一的規範的話那至少要有一個基準的單位那法務部廉政署的政風室在各個的部門不管哪一個行政機關基本上都是他們的存在是不是由廉政署下轄的這些政風室來去跟"},{"start":250.736,"end":274.234,"text":"每一個單位 因為每一個單位他有自己知道說他會接觸什麼樣的密等 哪些東西是敏感的來去做一個完整的匡列也就是說有法務部做匡列會不會是一個未來做一個統一標準的一個好的開始因為部長你是有法律專精 所以想請教你覺得這是不是一個好的辦法不然國安局他沒有辦法像這個法務部一樣有這麼綿密的這個系統"},{"start":278.005,"end":303.493,"text":"我想有關於跟其他國家從事任何的這樣子的一些交流都涉及到三個層面,一個就是人員的安全查核,第二個是治安的等級的要求第三個呢,就是雙方的通聯機制要有一個機密的保持這個三個部分,我想我們"},{"start":306.475,"end":318.847,"text":"都會努力來達成這樣子的一個水平然後來從事這樣子的一個跟其他國家從事相關的一些交流"},{"start":321.563,"end":337.478,"text":"部長我剛剛問說保護部、廉政署、陣容室在各個行政機關的這個部分是不是由他們做匡列這個部分,您覺得怎麼樣?因為畢竟部長有法律的專才,那以及當過國安會的秘書長,對整體的"},{"start":339.62,"end":355.318,"text":"我們現在講的一個是一個機構institution我們希望創造一個有機構性的一個方式來去匡列到底哪些人需要被委員那個意思是說由他們做一個有關安全查核的一個"},{"start":356.579,"end":377.535,"text":"框架嗎 還是 框裂就是哪些人 因為他會接觸到密等 他必須要被框裂那正風是跟那一個所屬機關 因為你說用人機關嘛是有在平行的聯繫 因為他們就在那一個局處啊所以是不是由他們跟用人的機關來去做框裂這樣是不是就符合兩方面所需"},{"start":378.873,"end":402.203,"text":"我想就行政院的部分有誰來做這樣子的一個哪些人應該要列入或哪些應該要從事怎麼樣的一個查核包括特殊查核或者是一般的查核等等這些我想我們會依照行政院的要求來進行"},{"start":404.537,"end":428.511,"text":"OK 好 部長沒有回答我的問題 不過沒有關係我想這也 我下次再問所屬機關好了 我去問法務部可能會比較有因為我的了解就是說現在在做這個部分在行政部門是這個法務部的調查局在做那我的了解是法務部的我之所以會問這個問題是因為我們有跟行政院討論那他們說或許是可以從法務部"},{"start":430.492,"end":450.826,"text":"就是廉政署下面的政公司去做一個初步的一個開始那我今天問部長不是說要問到誰我只是想說因為你過去有法律的經驗還有國安會秘書長你可能可以重覽全部的這個不同的單位所以我才說你覺得這個建議是好還是不好一個就是說法務部的廉政署也好"},{"start":452.867,"end":467.912,"text":"或者甚至到法國部政務處,我覺得法國部廉政署應該就可以,他可以做一個框架性的要求但實際執行的層面,如果要到法國部的調查局的話,那法國部調查局的能量必須要做大幅的擴充"},{"start":469.949,"end":498.297,"text":"匡列跟執行是兩個不一樣的事情所以我現在講的是要執行當然不想你說要可能要做大幅度的擴充沒辦法就是我們現在面臨的困境所以說很多人都會說你看哪邊又有供點可是不是啊就是表示說我們現在有機制可以抓到這些人那我們現在要做的就是說除了有機制抓到這些人之後我們制度化的讓我們能夠把這些人這個神之以法的可能性再增到最高"},{"start":498.897,"end":518.196,"text":"因為我們現在面臨的威脅跟十年前又不一樣了所以我們才講到這件事情不過沒關係我的時間已經用完了那我還是希望說部長你那邊如果有建議的話我們這邊也想要做一個統整就是說這樣的方式是好的嗎還是你們有不同的意見那我們把它匡列進來我們來想一個更好的方式好不好"},{"start":518.416,"end":531.216,"text":"因為我們國防部本身已經有制定就是說有關涉密的一個程度有不同的查核班而不是以階級所以我想我們的意見可以提供給行政院做一個參考"},{"start":532.096,"end":550.068,"text":"好因為我現在看到的是它是擴大啦擴大可是它那個擴大的理由只是為了擴大而擴大的話那有點可惜那包含它所知道的資訊跟它要用的資訊跟用人單位的資訊做一個整合嘛就是除了鎖鑰匙跟你是不需要在那個地點這個我"},{"start":551.889,"end":570.09,"text":"沒關係我們之後再來討論本來我還是想要做我們是依照美方相關的做法來律定這個我們現在相關的辦法那我們一定會提供給行政院做參考很好那就直接我認為我們不需要重新發明輪值對方怎麼做我們可以直接採信不然的話我們怎麼加入這些其他的情報的存入"},{"start":571.075,"end":586.192,"text":"用一樣的方式就好了我們就不用重新再發明也是可以的就直接使用這樣的方式那這樣的話我們就不用在各種不同的狀況然後在各個不同的人員上面有又同時試行不同的狀況我覺得這樣不一定好好 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對不對所以我才講就是說你這個部長要是進步的還是退步的"},{"start":154.699,"end":175.277,"text":"包委員第一個是說我們有嚴格的去監控每一個地方的空污在這個過去一兩個禮拜我們台灣的空氣品質當然我必須說天氣比較好也有下雨我們的空氣品質並沒有變差第一個第二個委員說的這個平均全世界都是一樣我們有32個手動式標準的策戰"},{"start":175.897,"end":186.413,"text":"那個標準是用這種所謂的手動式要過濾到水氣的影響所以我們跟日本跟韓國是一樣有一樣共通的跟美國一樣的標準所以我們才做這樣的比較的"},{"start":187.857,"end":213.657,"text":"剛剛你有一句話我是肯定的就是說你說除了室內跟室外之外室外你說還是要去努力嘛對不對對當然我就希望你是往進步的方向走啦跟我剛剛那個比較只是個很明顯的像核能是低碳無碳的時候你燒了煤燒了天然氣當然就是增加嘛對不對那你就有責任盡量讓它要避免要不是變少了啊第二個是整體去談我希望大家以後在評判你的時候就今天因為有媒體用社論在評判啊你說不要用廢發電這個字眼啊其實"},{"start":216.075,"end":244.927,"text":"如果空氣有汙染空汙是嚴重的就是用生命在發電啊用廢啊用健康在發電啊那個我講一下啦像今天秀芳在這中華因為中華受害中華也是很嚴重的中華去廢線來鑽台灣通街嘛而且全民就在注意這個事情當你廢核加研完之後今天主席在這剛剛那個劉建國劉主席主席現在不在與你那個麥寮電廠古泥河山廠的一號機停了之後"},{"start":246.857,"end":273.013,"text":"就是繼續賣掉電廠啊全台灣最大污染源發電的第一就是中火嘛對不對第一就是賣掉啊賣掉本來4月份已經停了啊火已經滿了啊要緊急去續約啊所以有建國他們就受害啊所以那一天是雲林、我家裡的鄉親台南、中華、台中幾天人來行政院看醫啊還到監察院要求要調查啊就民眾的感觸是很深的嘛"},{"start":275.695,"end":297.844,"text":"所以一方面是為了大家的健康一方面空屋的這個事情你是環境部長我們會看現在的空屋有沒有任何的變化現在的數值有多少你也可以打開你的手機APP看我們現在是PM2.5的數值是多少過去這幾天台灣以中部來說的話大概就是8到9而已並沒有顯著的變化高雄我們也正在看也沒有顯著的變化"},{"start":298.484,"end":315.433,"text":"一個東西一個排放擴散我們環境部都有去監控任何的一個煙囪的第二個呢它擴散是一個過程它其實是一個大氣擴散是一個非常非常複雜的一個學問所以我們當然我們當然會希望它能夠減量但是造成空污的來源真的非常的多所以我說那個"},{"start":317.015,"end":338.734,"text":"我們有一些但書,我們PF2.5的確從過去的103年是24十幾年前我們的那時候是每大概50%左右我們空品PF2.5全國南部都三四十以上的現在已經降到平均全台是12.8了我是用那樣的方式說我們其實很多的來源所以我們可以用更平時的討論包含的生活污染源、移動污染源我們一起來減量"},{"start":340.115,"end":356.148,"text":"要整體去嘛所以你說最大汙染也是高通嘛對不對所以我們就會想說要多發展這個大眾的這個運輸系統啊電動車嘛對不對那它可能還在增加所以除了整體去看之外你要看每一個事件的發生中火很明顯啊盧先生講得很好啊他去統計517前後的兩天他現時燒煤炭就增加了1.4噸啊1.4萬噸啊"},{"start":364.298,"end":387.74,"text":"這數據不會騙人嘛 如果燒了1.4萬噸 空氣怎麼會變好 一定變差嘛對不對 啊等於 委員空氣 我們會看實際上的空氣品質的監測值並沒有顯出的變化對啦 而且柏震你說的嘛 他有很多種污染源嘛 包括汽車 對不對你說最大是交通嘛 那我說整體當然要看 可是你很明顯如果從中火燒煤炭增加 當然空氣一定是 那邊一定是變不好的嘛 對不對"},{"start":388.521,"end":402.477,"text":"沒有變不好 你可以看過去的幾天交通這邊變少了 或者下雨嘛我說單獨 你單獨去看中火 中火就是前後就增加了1.4萬噸 是幹嘛 對不對那這個有沒有增加 盧先生說的對不對"},{"start":404.793,"end":430.687,"text":"517非核加鹽他就統計516跟518啊518中火燒的煤炭就多了1.4萬噸啊夠明確了吧這東西不會騙人吧一個空污的排放他燒多少煤他還有他的這個控制管制這個污染的這個量他有一套的技術在那邊最後擴散出去是有一個過程那個其實都受到鹽糜的監控的有在控制有在改善嘛可是他就是增加嘛對不對你會否認增加這個事實"},{"start":432.625,"end":459.678,"text":"但是我們會看但是我們會看實際上的空汙到底有多少從沒有到增加1.4萬噸這東西你怎麼會否認呢你應該沒有否認這個吧我沒有否認啊但是問題是說我們會看實際上每個民眾呼吸到的空氣的PM2.5到底是多少嘛我們從數字來看嘛所以它就是增加嘛啊第二我現在接下來跟你講高雄嘛高雄也是增加來補充一下第一個這段時間老舊這個機組從"},{"start":462.642,"end":473.308,"text":"高雄兩個重要基礎這個重啟 顯示什麼就是用電不夠嘛 電力不夠嘛所以政府戳破了政府這不缺電這個牛皮嘛我覺得嚴重的 我覺得這就是環境部的責任了我認為清達3號跟4號它重啟對不對它是合法的嗎合法的合法啊我給你看一下古年啊 基本"},{"start":492.063,"end":518.698,"text":"這一份是113年5月份薛部長的書面報告他說緊急備用電力設施的啟動通報程序為了維護供電安全跟穩定當實際或者易估系統供電餘裕就是備載容量多少"},{"start":520.043,"end":521.884,"text":"6%以下台電公司可以視電力系統運轉情況啟動緊急的設備以為因應我問你一下這邊星達3號跟4號運轉的時候它備轉容量備轉容量幾%我不知道 因為這個是台電要錄的事情他就不合這規定啊6%以下嘛 對不對"},{"start":549.002,"end":552.985,"text":"8%目前我們所到的數字是8%所以台北是達年環境不妖新達8% 大年是6%對啊 韓市裡面幾%這是薛部長的報告 6%以下才可以啟動我在進一步給你看你們在106年的"},{"start":576.914,"end":580.695,"text":"0023996號函你們的函式也是寫6%啊那這樣星島來來保定從薛部長的報告從106年你們的函式台電這個緊急的這個機組他如果要備用要運轉都要6%對不對他走不到6%他就可以運轉咧這沒違反你的規定"},{"start":608.251,"end":630.806,"text":"有沒有大林 說實在的啊大林電廠 大林電廠你知道幾歲喔大林電廠1975年耶 已經除役了他在運轉那個空汙 那個老舊的機組一方面危險一方面空汙嚴重嘛不過基本上大林還大林還符合你的6%我現在問你是星達3號跟4號有違反你的6%嗎"},{"start":638.53,"end":650.536,"text":"報告委員基本上他是一個緊急備用有一個720小時的一個限制那環評的這個承諾的是備轉容量小於8%這個是興達電廠這兩個呢符合當中一個就可以了"},{"start":654.147,"end":669.013,"text":"人家台電已經打臉你 已經違反你的規定了 你還幫他解釋這是環比的規範第一 明明薛部長在立法院的報告第二個 我剛跟你講這個韓式文 你再查一下好不好第二個 好 我進一步問你你剛講說緊急備用電力設施8%這個事情這什麼時候的 什麼時候的規定有這個嗎"},{"start":683.957,"end":708.266,"text":"當時的環評承諾環評承諾 對這個環評承諾沒有違反你自己的含釋違反你的規定有沒有違反空污法第24條目前是沒有 因為兩個法是獨立的大聲一點 請大聲一點沒有違法 是兩個法是獨立的兩個法是獨立 一個是環評法 一個是空污法"},{"start":710.85,"end":730.258,"text":"空污法沒有授權這個嘛然後第二個我剛剛已經給你看了兩個重要的這個文件嘛 對不對那現在部長 你現在跟部長講的是什麼是你的環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了空污法 它怎麼會有效呢而且補充剛剛的第一個時間嘛你要6%以下嘛它的反依據有問題嘛對不對 補充"},{"start":736.209,"end":744.053,"text":"公務法是緊急備用720小時 環評的承諾是小於8%的時候它可以運轉對阿 它怎麼可以訂一個違反公務法24條的就是6%嘛 6%跟8%差這麼多 6%什麼意思6%就是它的燈號已經從黃燈轉到橘燈橘燈就是系統性的限電可能要產生了"},{"start":758.82,"end":782.906,"text":"你降到6%以下可能隨時大停電了捏要緊急去用電捏跟8%差很多捏這邊政府碰到什麼問題就是非核家營以後核三廠的二號機佔我們所有用電的3%把剛剛進戶的就再追那3%嘛追不到嘛啊你現在就是不到6%結果現在台電偷偷去啟用這個而且他連操作席可都沒有耶"},{"start":785.694,"end":789.937,"text":"第一個他沒有操作許可 對不對就是他違反你6%啊這個問題很嚴重耶部長我們具體要求啦他的環評承諾是有問題的因為反議據有問題你要照你原來的空污法的規定6%去走"},{"start":804.079,"end":823.821,"text":"所以你進一步去了解一下好不好這個我們再了解一下這個當時是因為這個年代非常久了啦但是我們目前是依法它環評的承諾跟空污法兩項它其實是符合其中之一它就可以它的運作不是 它如果你說的是環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了魔法怎麼有效"},{"start":826.889,"end":843.127,"text":"第一個你是一個進步的環境部長你是要顧著人民的健康 人民的肺 人民的生命所以當然是要為一方面要顧及他的健康嘛是要先進的一個環境部長嘛第二個你要守法這個評估報告之後有問題"},{"start":844.877,"end":860.248,"text":"環評承諾如果有問題就要去改啦好我做兩個建議啦好不好來博定來我們做兩件事情啦做兩件事情第一個你回去把這個當初的環評承諾為什麼有八趴這個事情也沒違反你母法把它弄清楚好嗎啊地席比較重要地席比較重要"},{"start":861.489,"end":885.912,"text":"現在開始 現在大家發現一些火力發電特別是燒煤的或者是燒天然氣的 50年以上的老舊的全部都開了對我們健康還有危險 這個都是問題能不能請你折成台電 這是習慣的喔公佈每一天 每一個發電廠燃燒煤的 燒油的 它用了多少的油或者多少的煤 可不可以"},{"start":887.265,"end":912.595,"text":"這個我們要了解一下今天往這邊說才會是一個先進的而且顧到我們人民健康的部長你還是要看一下我們實際上造成我們的空氣品質的變化有多少當然我必須說這幾天天氣很好擴散很容易但是如果冬天的話可能不大一樣但是問題是說我們還是要看空污的影響你如果看那個園它如果做好污染的管控那個排出來的量就少很多這個是空氣污染這個我們有共識啦全民也有共識啦"},{"start":913.075,"end":934.044,"text":"就是說有下雨天暴雨人要用科學的數字來看因為那個空的數字到底有多少你看我們的EDB就可以有了嘛中火那邊有沒有增加燒煤或者是這個星達3號4號有沒有起這個也是理性物質科學的但我也可以看我們現在的空氣品質到底多少有沒有變化嘛有沒有科學嘛就是說中部南部的空品質有沒有變化嘛我做個簡單的因為我們講的沒有衝突啦"},{"start":937.805,"end":961.914,"text":"第一個空污是整體的包括交通包括工廠對不對這些全部都在裡面有沒有下雨也會影響嘛所以整體去控制是需要的可是今天更重要的就是每個具體的例如說中火裡面都燒了多少煤然後你星達3號4號本來是沒有的大林電廠本來已經是除役的你重啟那個個案當然就存在啊它從零變成有嘛對不對"},{"start":962.914,"end":980.675,"text":"這個不用辯論嘛那我現在在跟你討論的整體的要去注意整體要去注意更重要的人民已經有感有感他本來應該是零的他變成有對我們的衝擊那你要去這個又是你管的啊這個我管的啊委員你也可以看一下我們的APP我們現在的空品到底多少"},{"start":981.075,"end":1007.667,"text":"你兩邊去對照就可以知道說這個問題在哪裡你現在講通案嘛 我可以說通案就是包括交通什麼那些下不下雨那個都有 那個要做啦我現在跟你講是從零變成沒有的這個很重要 因為本來沒有嘛你今天如果火三廠二號機沒停掉你就沒有中火全開 火力全開啊就沒有興達電廠的三號機 四號機重啟啊也沒有大林電廠五十年的老舊除役的又重來嘛 是不是這樣這個當然是你管的 你要去注意啊 好不好"},{"start":1008.147,"end":1020.036,"text":"我們會管現在的空瓶到底有沒有變化我們這個有智慧的主席已經站起來很久了通案處理然後個案零到沒有的要趕快監控確保我們的安全跟健康謝謝謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時4分）先請彭部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["彭部長啓明：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長好。天空的顏色是一個國家進步的象徵，你是專家，你應該聽過這句話啦！"],["彭部長啓明：是，當然。"],["張委員啓楷：空污的多少也是國家進步跟落後的一個象徵，部長，你上任以後，天空的顏色有進步，還是退步？二氧化硫、氮氧化物、酸雨越來越多，還是越來越少？全民都在看。這幾天很多人都在討論你的講法，你說要了解PM2.5有多少，可是很多學者專家提醒你，空污除了PM2.5，其實氮氧化物、硫氧化物也是很嚴重的，對不對？氮氧化物占整個空污比率大概16.5%，硫氧化物占40.4%，我今天提這個是希望你的天空是進步的，你現在監控PM2.5的同時，要注意所有的污染好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我說一下定義，PM2.5含直接排放，還有衍生性的，衍生性就包含SOx、NOx，就是你說的氮氧化物跟硫氧化物，它是一個懸浮微粒，所以我們講健康是會拿PM2.5來跟各種的病去做比較的，這是國際上通用的一個作法，我並沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：現在是兩個問題，一個就是不要只看到小微粒，其他的也要放進去。第二個，現在有人在說，你要把全臺灣平均，不要只有看玉山，把玉山放進來、把阿里山放進來，空氣最好的在臺東跟花蓮，現在最嚴重在哪裡？事實上517非核家園以後，大家在擔心的是什麼？就是中火嘛！中火的污染源就是從燒煤炭開始，從苗栗一直到高雄，這幾天引起最大爭議的是什麼？就是興達3號跟4號機組，燒煤炭的繼續燒嘛！本來用核能的時候是低碳或者是無碳的，一下改成燒煤炭的時候，污染就增加嘛！這是比較值，對不對？所以我才講，你這個部長要是進步的，還是退步的？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我們有嚴格的去監控每一個地方的空污，在過去一、兩個禮拜，我們臺灣的空氣品質，當然我必須說天氣比較好，也有下雨，我們的空氣品質並沒有變差。第二個，委員說的這個平均，全世界都是一樣，我們有32個手動式標準的測站，那個標準是用這種所謂的手動式，要過濾掉水氣的影響，所以我們跟日本、跟韓國是一樣共通的，跟美國是一樣的標準，所以我們才去做這樣的比較。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛你有一句話我是肯定的，就是你說除了室內跟室外之外，室外你說還是要去努力，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，當然。"],["張委員啓楷：希望你是往進步的方向走啦！我剛剛那個比較值是很明顯的，像核能是低碳、無碳的，你燒了煤、燒了天然氣，當然就是增加，對不對？那你就有責任，儘量讓它是變少的；第二個是整體去談，我希望大家以後在評判你的時候，像今天也有媒體用社論在評判，你說不要用「用肺發電」這個字眼，但如果空氣有污染，空污是嚴重的，就是用生命在發電啊！用肺啊！用健康在發電啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我講一下啦！像今天秀芳在這裡，因為中火而受害的地方，彰化也是很嚴重，彰化是全臺灣肺腺癌最多的地方，現在全民就在注意這個事情，當你非核家園完之後，剛剛主席在這裡，劉建國主席現在不在，去年核三廠的1號機停了之後，就是讓麥寮電廠繼續發電，全臺灣發電最大的污染源第一個就是中火，第二個就是麥寮，麥寮電廠本來4月份已經停了，合約已經滿了，又緊急續約啊！所以劉建國他們就受害，那一天是雲林、我嘉義的鄉親、臺南、彰化及臺中整群人來行政院抗議，還到監察院要求要調查啊！所以民眾的感觸是很深的嘛！一方面是為了大家的健康，一方面是空污的事情，部長，你是環境部長，你要……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們會看現在的空污有沒有任何的變化，現在的數值是多少，你也可以打開你的手機app看我們現在PM2.5的數值是多少，過去這幾天，臺灣以中部來說的話，大概就8到9而已，並沒有顯著的變化；高雄我們也正在看，也沒有顯著的變化，我們環境部都有去監控任何一個煙囪的排放擴散；第二個，擴散是一個過程，大氣擴散其實是一個非常複雜的學問，所以我們當然會希望它能夠減量，但是造成空污的來源真的非常的多，所以委員，我說那個是說，我們有一些但書，我們的PM2.5從過去103年是24，十幾年前我們的燃煤大概是50%左右，我們的空品PM2.5，南部都三、四十以上的，現在已經降到全臺平均是12.8了，我是用那樣的方式說我們其實很多的來源，我們可以用更平實的討論，包含生活污染源、移動污染源，我們一起來減量。"],["張委員啓楷：對，就像部長說的，要整體去看嘛！你說最大污染源是交通，所以我們就會想說多發展大眾運輸系統、電動車，那它可能還在增加，所以除了整體去看之外，你要看每一個事件的發生，因為中火就很明顯啊！盧秀燕講得很好啊！他去統計517前後兩天，它確實燒煤炭就增加了1.4萬噸，這數據不會騙人，對不對？多燒了1.4萬噸，空氣怎麼會變好？一定變差嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，空氣的部分我們會看實際上空氣品質的監測值，並沒有顯著的變化。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！就像部長說的，它有很多種污染源，包括汽車，你說最大的是交通嘛！我是說整體當然要看，可是很明顯地，如果從中火燒煤炭增加，當然那邊的空氣一定是變不好嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，沒有變不好，你可以看過去那幾天……"],["張委員啓楷：你說可能是交通這邊變少了，或者下雨，我說你單獨去看中火的話，中火前後就增加了1.4萬噸，才一天而已，這個有沒有增加？盧秀燕說的對不對？517邁入非核家園，所以他去統計516跟518，發現518中火燒的煤炭就多了1.4萬噸，這夠明確了吧？這東西不會騙人嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，一個空污的排放，它燒多少煤，還有它控制、管制污染的量，它有一套技術在那邊，最後擴散出去是有一個過程，那個其實都受到嚴密的監控。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！部長，有在控制、有在改善，可是它就是增加嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：但是……"],["張委員啓楷：你會否認增加這個事實嗎？你可以說是你的努力或者科技在進步……"],["彭部長啓明：但是我們會看實際上空污到底有多少。"],["張委員啓楷：但是你可以否認一個從沒有到增加1.4萬噸，這東西你怎麼會否認呢？你應該沒有否認這個吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有否認啊……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！它就是……"],["彭部長啓明：但問題是我們會看實際上每個民眾呼吸到空氣中的PM2.5到底是多少，我們從數字來看嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：所以它就是增加嘛！第二個，我接下來跟你講高雄，高雄也是增加啊！部長，我問一下，第一個，這段時間老舊機組，從高雄兩個重要機組的重啟顯示了什麼？就是電力不夠嘛！所以戳破了政府說不缺電的這個牛皮。更嚴重的是，我覺得這就是環境部的責任了，部長，興達3號跟4號機組重啟，這是合法的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：合法的。"],["張委員啓楷：合法？我給你看去年這一份113年5月薛部長的書面報告，他說緊急備用電力設施啟動通報程序，為維持供電安全與穩定，當實際或預估系統供電餘裕在6%以下，就是備轉容量6%以下，台電公司將視電力系統運轉情況，評估啟動緊備設施以為因應。我問你，這次興達3號跟4號運轉的時候，備轉容量是幾%？"],["彭部長啓明：我不知道，因為這個是台電……"],["張委員啓楷：它就不合這個規定啊！規定要6%以下，對不對？這是你上一任部長啊！"],["彭部長啓明：8%，目前我們收到的數字是大林是6%，興達是8%。"],["張委員啓楷：所以台電是打臉環境部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：興達是8%，大林是6%。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，這個報告裡面是寫幾%？這是薛部長的報告，裡面提到6%以下才可以啟動。我再進一步給你看，你們在106年0023996號函釋中也是寫6%。部長，從薛部長的報告、從你們106年的函釋，台電的緊急機組如果要備用、要運轉都要6%以下，對不對？它怎麼不到6%以下就可以運轉了呢？這有沒有違反你的規定？有沒有？","說實在地，你知道大林電廠幾歲嗎？大林電廠是1975年啟用的，而且已經除役了，它再運轉，那個老舊的機組，一方面危險，一方面空污嚴重。不過部長，基本上大林還符合你的6%，我現在問你的是，興達3號跟4號有違反你的6%嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，基本上它是一個緊急備用，有一個720小時的限制，環評的承諾是備轉容量小於8%，這個是興達電廠，只要符合這兩個當中的一個就可以了。"],["張委員啓楷：台電已經打臉你、已經違反你的規定了，你還幫它解釋。"],["彭部長啓明：這是環評的規範。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，明明薛部長在立法院的報告是這樣寫的。第二個，我剛剛跟你講的這個函釋，你回去查一下好不好？我進一步問你，你剛剛說緊急備用電力設施8%這個事情，這是什麼時候的規定？有這個規定嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是當時的環評承諾。"],["張委員啓楷：這個環評承諾有沒有違反你自己的函釋、有沒有違反你的規定、有沒有違反空污法第二十四條？"],["黃司長偉鳴：目前是沒有，因為兩個法是獨立的。"],["張委員啓楷：請大聲一點。"],["黃司長偉鳴：沒有違法，兩個法是獨立的，一個是環評法，一個是空污法。"],["張委員啓楷：空污法沒有授權這個嘛！第二個，我剛剛已經給你看了兩個重要文件，你剛剛跟部長講的是什麼？是依據環評承諾嘛！環評承諾違反了空污法，它怎麼會有效呢？而且部長剛剛的第一個時間，你要6%以下，它的法源依據有問題，部長，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：空污法是緊急備用720小時，環評承諾是小於8%的時候，它可以運轉。"],["張委員啓楷：對，它怎麼可以訂一個違反空污法第二十四條？就是那個6%，6%跟8%差很多！6%是什麼意思？6%就是它的燈號已經從黃燈轉到橘燈，橘燈就是系統性的限電可能要產生了，你降到6%以下，可能隨時會大停電了，要緊急去應變，這跟8%差很多耶！這幾天政府碰到什麼問題？就是因為非核家園以後，核三廠的2號機占我們所有用電的3%，每天政府都在追那個3%，追不到嘛！你現在就是不到6%，結果現在台電偷偷去啟用這個，而且它連操作許可都沒有，第一個，它沒有操作許可，第二個，它違反你的6%規定啊！這個問題很嚴重欸！","部長，我們具體要求，它的環評承諾是有問題的，因為法源依據有問題，你要照你原來空污法規定的6%去走，所以你進一步去了解一下好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們再了解一下，因為這個年代非常久了，但是我們目前是依據環評承諾跟空污法兩項，其實只要符合其中之一，它就可以運作。"],["張委員啓楷：不是，你說的是環評承諾，環評承諾違反了母法怎麼會有效？第一個，你是一個進步的環境部長，你是要顧人民的健康、人民的肺、人民的生命，所以當然一方面要顧及他的健康，所以要先進的環境部長，另一方面，你要守法啊！如果這個評估報告有問題、環評承諾有問題，就要去改。","我做兩個建議，部長，我們做兩件事情，第一個，你回去把當初環評承諾為什麼會有8%這個事情，以及有沒有違反母法，把它弄清楚，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要，現在大家發現一些火力發電，特別是燒煤的，或者是燒天然氣的，50年以上老舊的全部都開了，影響我們的健康，還有危險，這些都是問題。能不能請你責成台電，這是你管的喔！請他們公布每一天每一個發電廠，不論是燒煤的、燒油的，它用了多少的油或者多少的煤？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們要了解一下，到底有沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：儘量往這邊做，才會是一個先進而且顧到我們人民健康的部長。"],["彭部長啓明：不過，委員，你還是要看一下實際上造成我們空氣品質的變化有多少，當然我必須說這幾天天氣很好，擴散很容易，如果是冬天的話可能不大一樣。但是問題是，我們還是要看空污的影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增加多少錢"},{"start":231.903,"end":232.163,"text":"增加16億多吧"},{"start":241.954,"end":247.859,"text":"大概是這個數字所以整體來說是司法院的預算是有比去年增加因為我們現在知道民進黨黨團行政院他們都有針對114年的政府總預算案提起釋憲請問這次的提起釋憲的範圍針對總預算案提起釋憲的範圍有包含司法院的預算嗎"},{"start":271.732,"end":276.756,"text":"因為我們的世華運的預算是併在中央政府總預算裡面所以說他整個事先案應該是包含我們是屬於裡面的一部分"},{"start":292.653,"end":306.83,"text":"所以他們之前申請釋憲這個114年總預算釋憲案都沒有來徵詢過司法院的意見要不要把你們司法院的預算也納在申請釋憲的範圍裡面都沒有徵詢過司法院的意見嗎"},{"start":308.257,"end":335.552,"text":"沒有都沒有所以你們就莫名其妙的就被這個申請釋憲你們是有針對今年的今年度通過的這個預算案有任何不滿的地方嗎不是他釋憲是整個中央政府總預算但是我們是包含在這裡面那麼請問一下監察院之前他們申請的預算案的釋憲他也是針對整個一包嗎114年的總預算案嗎還是針對他們的部分"},{"start":339.798,"end":358.402,"text":"公務員說明監察院的部分是就他們監察院的預算部分所以就代表是可以分開的嘛那你如果司法院你們沒有認為說我的預算案的部分有申請釋憲的必要那為什麼行政院這麼不尊重司法院喔直接把你們的預算案一起併在114年的總預算裡面然後一起申請釋憲"},{"start":360.779,"end":383.166,"text":"我覺得司法院要出來抗議啊 如果說你們沒有認為這一次我們立法院審查司法院的預算有顯不合理或是這個影響到你們司法院權益的地方的話 你們可以拒絕啊所以我認為說行政院 卓榮泰是很不尊重司法院的"},{"start":384.714,"end":411.172,"text":"他應該要徵詢你們的意見你們的部分要不要提出放在14年的預算案裡面去申請釋憲我接下來要講的就是說從法律的角度來看假設我們現在假設憲法法庭認為14年總預算案可能全部或部分的違憲退回給立法院重審"},{"start":413.966,"end":424.83,"text":"請問 副女士長 你們有沒有信心你們的預算經費會和現在一樣嗎或是至少比現在更增加嗎你們有沒有想過這個問題因為現在是申請釋憲嘛所以代表這個預算案的效率是什麼"},{"start":440.39,"end":463.584,"text":"可能是屬於一個這個實質上效率未定的問題雖然我們知道說預算經過立法院三讀通過之後的法定預算在大法官的解釋把它定位為措施性法律對不對既然定位為措施性法律它就生效了所以已經在執行了那麼如果說憲法法庭之後"},{"start":465.325,"end":491.03,"text":"很白目的真的宣告了這個2014年的政府總預算案全部或是部分違憲那麼後續的呢後續的效率為何這部分其實我蠻想聽聽看司法院的高見你們會認為說現在的這個預算執行到某個程度之後全部都無效所以你們執行也全無效然後全部回到這個原點然後發回給立法院重新審"},{"start":492.737,"end":519.827,"text":"那個報委員因為這個部分涉及那個大法官他們那個解釋那個權責所以我們司法行政我們真的那個沒有我覺得是一個法律的問題因為這涉及到其他的所有的機關啊是對如果說當時司法院你們的預算案沒有在卓榮泰申請的預算的這個範圍裡面那或許這個部分比較不會受到影響但是現在申請了釋憲而且是整包"},{"start":521.277,"end":540.075,"text":"也會影響到司法院的權益啊所以坦白說我也在思考就是我們今天審查這些解凍案有意義嗎我們都解凍了解凍了之後呢最好是大法官他如果說真的這個把所有的預算案宣告違憲重審退回來重審那我告訴你我們"},{"start":541.59,"end":551.202,"text":"這個有了上一次的經驗我們這一次在審查一定會更嚴格把關每一項預算都給你指的清清楚楚的哪裡要刪要砍狀況會比現在更好嗎是"},{"start":559.659,"end":588.638,"text":"同樣的邏輯現在這個申請釋憲預算的申請釋憲的還不只是針對一四年總預算案那麼還有就是才化法才化法那我現在這邊當然不是針對才化法那我現在要講的就是說在這個行政院他針對一四年預算提出釋憲可是呢他現在呢竟然說把我們要求行政院自己要這個統刪自己要去"},{"start":590.663,"end":591.104,"text":"進行這個經費安排的636億"},{"start":594.5,"end":622.831,"text":"他把這個部分轉嫁出去讓地方政府吸收所以也就是說不是刪行政院跟他的部會機關而是行政院把該刪的這筆636億呢就是由地方縣市政府去刪他們的一般性的補助款那麼我想請問在這一次統三的636億裡面司法院自己本身有沒有吸收部分的經費還是都沒有並沒有"},{"start":624.211,"end":636.455,"text":"並沒有嘛那在過去如果說我們講到這個政府立法院通過有些統刪的經費的時候司法院過去有沒有曾經有吸收過部分的這個經費"},{"start":639.311,"end":660.849,"text":"統三經費統三經費就是依照統三的比例我們還是會刪統三的比例還是會刪是是是所以就是113年以前的預算你們仍然是會部分的統三會被吸收嗎每年都不是吸收就依照你們的決議的比例去刪每年都這樣但是今年沒有"},{"start":661.249,"end":684.682,"text":"不是 今年還是有依照通商的比例但是沒有去吸收那600多 剩下的那個部分是 但是在過去的話其實也有部分嘛譬如說可能剩下大概幾十億或是100億可能就是由行政院自己去吸收還是說司法院也會吸收沒有 我們通通是依照那個比例下去刪的依照通商的比例下去刪的好 那就所以今年的636億就沒有讓你們去承擔嘛"},{"start":688.334,"end":713.504,"text":"承擔部分的經費我們只是依照通商的比例至於那個三減不足的部分是沒有的三減不足在過去三減不足的部分的話你們司法院也會被沒有沒有下來都沒有所以就是說過去這個三減不足的地方大概就是由行政院中央政府他們自己就去吸收了所以這一次卓榮泰他們這樣的做法"},{"start":714.764,"end":741.653,"text":"也是違反過去的做法因為在過去他們沒有這麼做但是他現在因為要為了大罷免為了要反制國會的在野黨所以故意的把這636億本來自己應該要所謂自己要去吸收的這個部分然後轉嫁給地方政府"},{"start":745.274,"end":771.812,"text":"這從剛剛司法院的口中裡面就知道所以其實在過去是沒有這樣的做法由此可見這個卓榮泰他們這樣的作為基本上是是非常糟糕很可惡的好OK那麼我想就是有關於這個新天樂另外一部分是要針對司法院的預算審查好審查那我們待會呢真的再進入到預算審查的時候我再來提出我的意見好謝謝"},{"start":772.708,"end":772.729,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":614,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時9分）謝謝主席，我們首先先請王副秘書長。"],["主席：請王副秘書長。王副秘書長是非常專業的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。王副秘，早安！"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安！"],["翁委員曉玲：我今天的質詢有幾個重點，首先，我想請教，針對大法官在113年憲判字第8號判決做成之後，不知道現在司法院是不是已經有提出相關的修法，就針對像是法官要一致決等等的這些大法官在憲判字第8號當中所諭知的，就是要啟動修法，現在司法院有動作了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢，在憲判字第8號之後，有關於刑事還有法院組織法，司法院現在都有進入研修的程序，目前有組成一個委員會，已經進行好幾次會議了，主要一個當然是一致決、法組法的部分，還有有關於死刑案件到上訴審的時候要完足公正程序，所以需要有言詞辯論這一些的，目前也都是在研修當中。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，你們預計什麼時候會提出？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為討論得非常充分，已經進行了好幾次，還有下一次，下一次的會議是在6月。"],["翁委員曉玲：也就是你們大概在接下來的6月、7月、8月可能就可以提出司法院的修法法案，是嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：今年一定會提出來的。"],["翁委員曉玲：在上個禮拜中選會沒收了立法院所提出來的公投案，這個當然我認為中選會是違法濫權，他根本無權去審查立法院所提出的公投案，更何況我們針對大法官所提出的判處死刑是否須要經過法官一致決這樣的議題，請人民表示意見，表示是否贊成大法官所做成的這樣的判決理由，這個當然會涉及到之後立法院就相關案子的重大立法政策，但是很遺憾的，中選會已經不是獨立機關，就是個政治機關，竟然還敢沒收立法院的公投案！更何況在現在的公投法裡面是立法院通過公投案交由中選會辦理，中選會沒有拒絕、不辦的權力。","不過這個部分當然跟司法院無關，所以我在這裡只是詢問有關於司法院現在修法的進度……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來，我要請教的是114年度司法院的總預算案有沒有比113年增加，還是減少？"],["王副秘書長梅英：114年整個是增加的。"],["翁委員曉玲：整個是增加，增加多少錢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我得看一下那個數字。"],["翁委員曉玲：增加十六億多，是不是？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，大概是這個數字。"],["翁委員曉玲：大概是這個數字。所以整體來說，司法院今年的預算是有比去年增加。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為我們知道現在民進黨黨團、行政院都有針對114年的政府總預算案提起釋憲，請問這次針對總預算案提起釋憲的範圍有包含司法院的預算嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，抱歉！因為這個部分我沒有去了解。請會計處長說明。"],["楊處長順成：因為司法院的預算是併在中央政府總預算裡面，所以整個釋憲案應該是有包含，我們是屬於裡面的一部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以他們之前針對114年總預算案聲請釋憲都沒有徵詢過司法院的意見，要不要把司法院的預算也納在聲請釋憲的範圍裡面，都沒有徵詢過司法院的意見嗎？"],["楊處長順成：沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：都沒有？所以你們就莫名其妙的被聲請釋憲，你們對通過的今年度預算案是有任何不滿的地方嗎？"],["楊處長順成：不是，他聲請釋憲的是整個中央政府總預算，但是我們是包含在這裡面。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們請問一下，監察院之前針對預算案的聲請釋憲也是針對整個114年的總預算案一包嗎？還是針對他們的部分？"],["楊廳長皓清：跟委員說明，監察院的部分是就監察院的預算部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以就代表這是可以分開的，如果司法院沒有認為自己的預算案部分有聲請釋憲的必要，為什麼行政院這麼不尊重司法院，直接把你們的預算案併在114年的總預算案裡面一起聲請釋憲？我覺得司法院要出來抗議，如果你們沒有認為這一次立法院審查司法院的預算有顯不合理或是影響到司法院權益的地方的話，你們可以拒絕，所以我認為行政院卓榮泰是很不尊重司法院的，對不對？他應該要徵詢你們的意見，徵詢你們的部分要不要放在114年的預算案裡面去聲請釋憲。","我接下來要講的是從法律的角度來看，我們現在假設憲法法庭認為114年總預算案可能全部或部分違憲，退回給立法院重審。請問副秘書長，你們有沒有信心，你們的預算經費會和現在一樣嗎？或是至少比現在更增加嗎？你們有沒有想過這個問題？因為現在是聲請釋憲，所以代表這個預算案的效力是什麼？可能是屬於實質上效力未定的問題，雖然我們知道經過立法院三讀通過之後的法定預算，在大法官的解釋，定位為措施性法律，對不對？既然定位為措施性法律，它就生效了，所以已經在執行了……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果憲法法庭之後很白目的真的宣告這個114年政府總預算案全部或是部分違憲，後續的效力為何？這個部分其實我蠻想聽聽看司法院的高見，你們會不會認為現在這個預算執行到某個程度之後，全部都無效，所以執行也全無效，全部回到原點，發回給立法院重新審？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為這個部分涉及大法官解釋的權責，所以司法行政真的不便表示意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有，我覺得這是一個法律問題，因為這涉及到其他所有的機關……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，如果當時司法院的預算案沒有在卓榮泰聲請釋憲的範圍裡面，或許這個部分比較不會受到影響，但是現在聲請了釋憲，而且是整包，也會影響到司法院的權益，所以坦白說，我也在思考，我們今天審查這些解凍案有意義嗎？到時我們都解凍了，之後大法官如果真的把所有的預算案宣告違憲，退回來重審，我告訴你，有了上一次的經驗，我們這一次再審查一定會更嚴格把關，每一項預算都指得清清楚楚的，哪裡要刪、要砍，這樣狀況會比現在更好嗎？","同樣的邏輯，現在聲請釋憲的還不只是針對114年總預算案，還有財劃法，我現在當然不針對財劃法，我現在要強調，行政院針對114年預算提出釋憲，可是他竟然把我們要求行政院自己要進行經費安排統刪636億這個部分轉嫁出去，讓地方政府吸收，也就是說，不是刪行政院及他的部會機關，而是行政院把該刪的這筆636億由地方縣市政府吸收，去刪他們的一般性補助款。我想請問，在這一次統刪的636億裡面，司法院本身有沒有吸收部分的經費，還是都沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：並沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：並沒有。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：過去如果立法院通過統刪經費的時候，司法院有沒有曾經吸收過部分的經費，就是統刪經費？"],["楊處長順成：統刪經費就是依照統刪的比例，我們還是會刪。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們還是會刪嘛？"],["楊處長順成：依照統刪的比例還是刪。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以113年以前的預算，統刪的部分仍然會被你們吸收嘛？"],["楊處長順成：不是吸收，而是依照你們決議的比例去刪，每年都這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：按決議的比例去刪，但是今年沒有？"],["楊處長順成：不是，今年還是有依照統刪的比例，但是沒有吸收那六百多億剩下的那個部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是在過去的話，其實也有部分，譬如剩下大概幾十億或是100億，可能就是由行政院自己去吸收，還是司法院也會吸收？"],["楊處長順成：沒有，我們通通是依照那個比例下去刪的，依照統刪的比例下去刪的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以今年的636億就沒有讓你們去承擔部分的經費？"],["楊處長順成：我們只是依照統刪的比例，至於刪減不足的部分，是沒有的。"],["翁委員曉玲：過去刪減不足的部分，司法院也有……"],["楊處長順成：沒有！"],["翁委員曉玲：向來都沒有？"],["楊處長順成：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以就是過去刪減不足的地方，大概就是由行政院、中央政府自己就去吸收了？"],["楊處長順成：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這一次卓榮泰他們這樣的作法，也是違反過去的作法，因為在過去他們沒有這麼做，但是現在為了大罷免、為了要反制國會的在野黨，所以故意把這636億本來所謂自己應該要去吸收的部分，轉嫁給地方政府。從剛剛司法院的口中就知道，其實過去沒有這樣的作法，由此可見，卓榮泰他們這樣的作為，基本上是非常糟糕、很可惡的。","因為今天另外一部分是要針對司法院的預算審查，待會兒真的進入預算審查的時候，我再提出我的意見。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","由於早上詢答到現在都沒有休息，我們先休息5分鐘，等一下繼續。","休息（11時22分）","繼續開會（11時29分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}},{"id":"161920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40ad95a28bddb2b0998ee4a52ea614c3ed712766cb13dea9389d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"11:04:06 - 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其實他們都是非常特殊的甚至他的建築體本身其實也不太一樣可是他們的造價 而且他們的騎乘都非常的順暢可是我們的軍博館 剛剛我提到的從17億多到現在變成54億54億多已經增加了三倍 到現在還做不好"},{"start":139.053,"end":145.918,"text":"部長,您知道這是什麼原因嗎?而且更離譜的是在111年的時候,這個機裝承載能力不足,要補強然後在第二次113年,也就是去年1月的時候,它的結構設計強度不足"},{"start":158.925,"end":179.685,"text":"然後在去年8月又發生維木牆、抗風樑柱要補牆這三個變更是國防部甲方要求的嗎部長有掌握這個嗎我想我現在手上沒有相關的這個詳細的資料那我想我會後再跟委員做個報告"},{"start":180.677,"end":183.178,"text":"部長我想在這裡談因為這個部分我們從好幾年前我們就已經提出來了這個部分比較離譜的像它第一次變更的時候機裝承載力不足它是什麼狀況廠商蓋到二樓的時候才發現它的樓地板如果放上去因為它下面的柱子太少"},{"start":201.209,"end":218.101,"text":"他沒有辦法承載所以二樓樓地板如果蓋了以後他沒有辦法放東西我們這個叫軍博館他二樓如果按照這樣的一個設計他沒有辦法放東西所以我們追加了大概一千三百多萬然後讓他展延三十天然後第二次在去年他的又變更設計一次他是怎麼樣牆面太大"},{"start":229.485,"end":246.073,"text":"它的支撐力不足 所以要補強剛構同時在去年第三次的變更維木牆抗風 樑柱補強就是頂樓的玻璃維木 它的抗風能力不足又做了樑柱補強部長您剛剛有聽到我說明的這三次補強的原因這是什麼專管公司 這是什麼設計單位"},{"start":256.874,"end":261.116,"text":"他們現在總共追加了大概又8000多萬我們從剛剛我念的17億還有32億46億到後來54億現在又8000萬而且他展延天數大概300多天幾乎又要一年部長您怎麼看"},{"start":276.023,"end":294.831,"text":"我的瞭解是有一部分是行政院認為我們原來的這個因為軍火管的設置不易所以要求我們這個整個量體要增加因此教育不好,你要不要說明一下"},{"start":297.748,"end":316.266,"text":"委員好我是志願司司長那之前因為我是在政務辦公室副主任所以對這個案子稍微有點了解一開始17億的那個部分是因為那時候我們設計的大概是兩層樓高這樣一個建築量體那後來在行政院開會的時候行政院覺得在這個地段做這樣子的設計效益不足所以請我們再重新考量"},{"start":316.966,"end":330.82,"text":"所以後來我們到加到了七層樓所以有一個會有一個這樣經費的一個增加而且後來因為是疫情的關係那所以我們幾次的一個招標都沒有很順利那後來也是行政院工程會把當初那時候所有行政院的重大工程"},{"start":332.421,"end":335.842,"text":"那個金額的調整那個已經有討論過我現在說的是你三次的變更不會太離譜嗎我們在過去沒有專管公司的時候甚至你怎麼會設計到你的樑柱的支撐力不足你明明蓋到七樓然後它的那個二樓的樓地板蓋下去整個會塌下來這是什麼設計結果你的罰則是多少我們在第一次它的那個"},{"start":359.352,"end":370.415,"text":"集裝承載能力不足要補強的時候我們追加一千三百萬可是他計罰的金額是七十七萬七千元第二次又做結構補強的時候他總共追加一千六百萬展延的天數一百一十六天他罰了兩百二十七萬第三次又做了變更設計因為他的玻璃帷幕太重他沒有辦法承載"},{"start":388.82,"end":392.022,"text":"所以我們又追加了5,446萬 展延天數172天 可是它只罰了專管6萬塊在我們又追加了8千萬的情況之下 而且展延了300多天我們對這個相關的 不管設計單位 專管單位 總共罰了300多萬可是我們又追加了8千多萬"},{"start":411.415,"end":435.113,"text":"國防部完全任人宰割 從我們剛開始說的你設計到七層樓的時候 你即時面臨到疫情民間沒有蓋房子嗎 我們所有的公共工廠沒有在做嗎可是你可以不斷不斷的增加 你是增加倍數耶我們的原物料增加的 或者人工的增加其實它都是有一些相關的資料"},{"start":438.018,"end":454.183,"text":"都是幾成幾成在增加 可是你是倍數在增加你現在 部長您是法律的專家像這樣子的計法 我們是可以的嗎而且這麼剛好 他計法的金額就剛好是我們的務酬款八千萬你就剛好把務酬款八千萬 也剛好把它用光了"},{"start":459.384,"end":473.605,"text":"這就是他增加的部分這個到底是營造商跟我們的專管公司設計單位他們協調的結果還是合作的結果他們只被罰了三百多萬可是他增加八千多萬這個問題出在哪裡"},{"start":479.165,"end":501.04,"text":"報告委員其實每次的變更設計在設計建造的部分還有專管的部分我們的確都有計法那因為計法收限於百分之二十的上限所以它那個金額的確可能很難達到一個預期那這個部分其實我們每個月或是每兩週每週我們都有人在現場跟他們開會也希望能夠補強這個部分"},{"start":502.421,"end":510.895,"text":"但如果將來對國防部的確造成了很多實質上的損失其實我們也不排除最後工程完成以後還有一個求償的一個措施這不是笑話嗎"},{"start":512.352,"end":535.333,"text":"部長 今天他已經連續三次的變更設計我說他不斷不斷的加價以外 他現在要把我們的務酬款剛好八千萬他就剛好設計也是增加八千萬這個部分請調查清楚 而且不要任意解凍今天如果可以從十七億多 一直增加到五十四億現在又要再增加八千萬"},{"start":536.514,"end":543.756,"text":"你的那個承載力不足 柱子不夠我們本來設計呢 那時候到我們去看的時候說 哇 這是挑高的然後我們上面要像那個 有一些大家看過那個自然博物館上面掛恐龍骨骼的那個部分他要把我們本來現在放在外面的飛機要掛到那個上面 現在能掛嗎"},{"start":557.299,"end":563.285,"text":"光是二樓樓地板放上去都會垮下來你還敢掛這樣這麼重的飛機嗎那時候跟我們說你為什麼要挑高因為看起來會比較紅尾而且它可以四面都沒有那麼多的柱子它的空間很大結果你現在因為承載力不足你增加了很多的柱子那現在它變成什麼樣子"},{"start":581.361,"end":585.862,"text":"這個部分我們要求國防部一定要徹查尤其這個部分我們對廠商完全沒有沒有辦法去計法以外總共罰300萬可是我們讓他不斷不斷的增加這麼高的預算而且我們用的很多的一大部分的錢是基金基金是用了就沒了結果你讓他這樣子把錢花掉部長這個部分你們會有什麼樣的一個做法"},{"start":609.323,"end":627.13,"text":"我想我會下去之後我會進行一個徹底的了解好不好好這個部分我們要求要有一個做法然後不要再把那個解凍案送出來你如果沒有一個解決的方案之前浪費民脂民膏然後還可以一直叫我們解凍這樣完全沒有辦法對國人交代"},{"start":630.231,"end":648.726,"text":"那今天也有委員在詢問我們國防部所屬院校今年招生的狀況女生的錄取率增高非常多那本席請國防部提供近八年國軍各基礎院校各年度招生數錄取數以及醫生二後他的留營數"},{"start":650.424,"end":673.063,"text":"就是你除了這些錄取人數以外一年級升二年級以後他留下來繼續念的到底有多少人數包括三軍我們的三軍的一個三軍院校國防大學各學院還有空軍航院技術學院陸軍專科學校等等請提供相關的數據資料給委員會好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。今天我們有非常多的委員在討論，雖然面向不太一樣，所以我們現在還是針對國防部的解凍案來討論，可是我想要特別提出一個案例，部長可以考量看看，為什麼常常指責委員在刪凍預算的時候是在擋國防預算，每年在預算執行的過程當中，卻讓一樣的事情不斷、不斷的發生，而且耗費、浪費非常多的國防資源？","我們來看軍博館，它本來是要蓋軍事博物館還有國軍英雄館這兩個館，那時候編列的預算大概有十七億餘元，預計在110年到112年完成，後來國軍英雄館因為訴訟的關係，後來沒有要增建這個部分，所以就只剩下軍博館，軍博館的經費從十七億餘元變成三十二億餘元，後來又增加到四十六億二，現在又變成五十四億，本來112年要完成，到現在已經114年了，它還沒有辦法完成，而且它的過程非常離譜。","今天像這樣的建築物，老實說它跟很多的博物館，包括民間的奇美博物館，還包括臺中的歌劇院，其實他們都是非常特殊的，甚至建築體本身也不太一樣，可是他們的造價，還有他們的期程都進行地非常順暢，反觀軍博館，剛剛我有提到，從十七億多到現在變成五十四億多，已經增加了三倍，而且到現在還做不好。部長，你知道是什麼原因嗎？而且更離譜的是，在111年的時候，基樁承載能力不足要補強；第二次在113年，也就是去年1月的時候，它的結構設計強度不足；然後在去年8月又發生帷幕牆抗風梁柱要補強，這三個變更是國防部（甲方）要求的嗎？部長有掌握這個嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我現在手上沒有相關的詳細資料，我會後再跟委員做個報告。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我想在這裡談，因為這個部分從好幾年前我們就已經提出來了。這個部分比較離譜的是，像第一次變更的時候，是因為基樁承載力不足，這是什麼狀況呢？就是廠商蓋到二樓的時候才發現，因為它下面的柱子太少，它的樓地板沒有辦法承載，所以二樓樓地板蓋了以後，是沒有辦法放東西的，這個建築是軍博館，如果二樓按照這樣的設計，它就沒有辦法放東西，所以追加了大概一千三百多萬，並讓它展延30天。","去年它又變更設計一次，也就是第二次變更，這是怎麼樣的情況呢？牆面太大，它的支撐力不足，所以要補強鋼構；同時在去年又有第三次的變更，即帷幕牆抗風梁柱補強，就是頂樓的玻璃帷幕抗風能力不足，又做了梁柱補強。部長剛剛應該有聽到我說明這三次補強的原因，這是什麼專管公司？這是什麼設計單位？他們現在又要追加大概八千多萬，剛剛我唸了17億、32億、46億，到後來的54億，現在又要8,000萬，而且展延天數大概有三百多天，幾乎又快一年，部長，您怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：我的了解是，有一部分是行政院認為軍博館的設置不易，所以要求我們整個量體要增加，我請藍司長說明一下。"],["藍司長靜婷：委員好。我是資源司司長，因為之前我是在政務辦公室擔任副主任，所以對這個案子稍微有點了解，一開始17億的部分，是因為那時候設計的高度大概是兩層樓高這樣的建築量體，後來在行政院開會的時候，行政院覺得在這個地段做這樣子的設計效益不足，請我們再重新考量，所以後來加到了七層樓，才會有這樣經費的增加，而且後來因為疫情的關係，所以幾次的招標都沒有很順利，後來也是行政院工程會把當初所有行政院的重大工程……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，你不要再說明這個部分，那個金額的調整，已經有討論過了，我現在說的是，變更三次不會太離譜嗎？過去沒有專管公司的時候，甚至怎麼會設計到讓梁柱支撐力不足，明明要蓋到7樓，然後2樓的樓地板蓋下去會整個塌下來，這是什麼設計？結果罰則是多少？我們在它第一次基樁承載能力不足要補強的時候，追加1,300萬，可是計罰的金額是77萬7,000元，第二次做結構補強的時候，它總共追加1,600萬，展延天數116天，罰了227萬，第三次又做了變更設計，因為玻璃帷幕太重，沒有辦法承載，所以又追加了5,446萬，展延天數172天，可是只罰了它專管6萬塊，在又追加了8,000萬的情況之下，展延了三百多天，不管是設計單位、專管單位總共罰了三百多萬，可是又追加了八千多萬，國防部完全任人宰割！從我們剛開始說的，你設計到7層樓的時候，即使面臨到疫情，民間沒有蓋房子嗎？所有的公共工程沒有在做嗎？可是你可以不斷不斷地增加，你是增加倍數耶！原物料的增加或者人工的增加其實都有一些相關的資料，都是幾成幾成在增加，可是你是倍數在增加，部長是法律的專家，像這樣子的計罰，我們是可以的嗎？而且這麼剛好，它計罰的金額就剛好是我們的物籌款8,000萬，你就剛好把物籌款8,000萬用光了，這就是它增加的部分，這到底是營造商跟專管公司設計單位協調的結果還是合作的結果？他們只被罰了三百多萬，可是它增加八千多萬，這個問題出在哪裡？"],["藍司長靜婷：報告委員，其實每一次的變更設計，在設計監造還有專管的部分，我們的確都有計罰，因為計罰受限於百分之二十的上限，所以它的金額的確可能很難達到預期，關於這個部分，其實每個月或是每兩週、每週，我們都有人在現場跟他們開會，也希望能夠補強這個部分，如果將來對國防部的確造成了很多實質上的損失，其實我們也不排除最後工程完成以後，還有一個求償的措施，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：這不是笑話嗎？部長，今天它已經連續3次的變更設計，它除了不斷不斷地加價以外，現在還要把我們的物籌款剛好8,000萬，它就剛好設計也是增加8,000萬，這個部分請調查清楚，而且不要任意解凍，今天如果可以從十七億多一直增加到54億，現在又要再增加8,000萬，你的承載力不足、柱子不夠，我們本來設計……那時候帶我們去看的時候說，哇！這是挑高的，然後上面要像大家看過的自然博物館上面掛恐龍骨骼的那個部分，要把本來放在外面的飛機掛到上面，現在能掛嗎？光是2樓樓地板放上去都會垮下來，你還敢掛這麼重的飛機嗎？那時候跟我們說你為什麼要挑高？因為看起來可能比較宏偉，而且它四面可以沒有那麼多的柱子，它的空間很大，結果現在因為承載力不足，增加了很多的柱子，那現在它變成什麼樣子？這個部分，我們要求國防部一定要澈查，尤其這個部分，我們對廠商完全沒有辦法去計罰以外，總共才罰300萬，可是我們讓它不斷不斷地增加這麼高的預算，而且我們用的很多錢一大部分是基金，基金是用了就沒了，結果你讓它這樣子把錢花掉，部長，關於這個部分，你們會有什麼樣的作法？"],["顧部長立雄：我下去之後會進行澈底了解，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：好，這個部分我們要求要有一個作法，然後不要再把解凍案送出來，你如果沒有一個解決的方案，浪費民脂民膏還一直叫我們解凍，這樣完全沒有辦法對國人交代。","今天也有委員在詢問今年國防部所屬院校的招生狀況，女生的錄取率增高非常多，本席請國防部提供近8年國軍各基礎院校各年度招生數、錄取數以及一升二後的留營數，就是除了這些錄取人數以外，一年級升二年級以後，他留下來繼續念的到底有多少人數，包括三軍院校、國防大學各學院還有空軍航院、技術學院、陸軍專科學校等等，請提供相關的數據資料給委員會，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員，部長請回。","接下來有請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-17","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","王定宇","徐巧芯","林楚茵","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 是不是請我們司法院的副秘書長請王副秘書長副秘書長 我今天不是要跟你討論根騷而是要跟你討論三峽重大的死亡車禍案件三死十二傷那如果這樣子的話 你知道他們的民事訴訟的審理是怎麼 是拿一種審理模式嗎一般審理 還是簡易審理"},{"start":39.472,"end":57.253,"text":"我請那個廳長來回覆廳長你不知道這個我去年就問過了廳長知道了你 副秘書長你現在是司法院的最高行政管理的首長這個目前民事訴訟法這是屬於檢疫案件跟交通相關的"},{"start":58.234,"end":83.393,"text":"我是要告訴你如果是民事訴訟的官司啊從110年還是哪一年修法以後全部一律改成簡易訴訟程序民事訴訟法第433之1條這是很重大的變革但是如果是刑事附帶民事一樣是什麼審理你知道嗎"},{"start":85.287,"end":114.033,"text":"你也不知道 那我再跟你講刑事部對民事 向刑事庭提出的民事訴訟的審理理論上刑事庭 刑事庭還是會移到民事庭去處理民事庭還是一樣交給檢疫庭審理那請問你13傷亡 3個人死亡 13個人輕重傷如果是這樣的民事訴訟官司啊是檢疫審理 你可以接受嗎"},{"start":116.859,"end":121.419,"text":"報告委員我想當時修的時候在立法院修的時候他是有他的那個考量的"},{"start":122.535,"end":147.092,"text":"所以我要藉著今天這個三峽的重大的死亡車禍和13個輕重傷這麼重大的車禍來告訴你當初修法的時候只想到要趕快結案可是訴訟的最核心是要實現當事人的權利是要實踐審判的公平要得到一個公平的審判可是你們為了趕快趕快趕快然後呢"},{"start":149.153,"end":158.4,"text":"把所有的交通事故的民事訴訟全部改成檢疫審理而檢疫審理的特色是什麼它的特性是什麼你不知道喔檢疫審理來委員不好意思可以容我來應以一次期日辯論終結為原則"},{"start":171.775,"end":179.092,"text":"應以一次其日辯論終結為原則但是我知道民視庭有檢附資料給我過我有看過"},{"start":181.311,"end":193.994,"text":"在111年5520個省捷的交通這個民事訴訟裡面有1690次不是省一次我知道然後在112年9350件裡面有3789件不是省一次在113年的前10個月8576件有3347件不是省一次但是但是來了現在啊我在講"},{"start":211.099,"end":214.661,"text":"副秘書長為什麼要再跟你講 因為前一個副秘書長大家都亂講 立委跟質詢都亂講事實上呢 事實上呢我現在要講 你看起來好像他們法官審人仔細不止一次你知道簡義廷的法官 我在這裡講過簡義廷的法官每個月包括銀行債權等等 每個月超過100件以上要審結"},{"start":238.915,"end":267.033,"text":"100件以上所以他說基本上啊 基本上他們都不會做出這個事實的這個證據的調查你知道這個交通事故的審理啊不只是遭受責任的比例醫療的費用 看護的費用撫養費用需要調查 失能的失能的比例要鑑定所以當然不可能是一次"},{"start":268.211,"end":295.077,"text":"你們當時的黃凌倫的副秘書長就說很難一次但是大多數都一次然後還說當事人可以請求改為一般審理可是當事人請求改成一般審理有一個要件要法院和法官同意法院和法官同意你們最喜歡講當事人程序自主權"},{"start":297.031,"end":323.822,"text":"在這個時候就沒有當事人程序自主權了沒有只能法院或法官同意而不是當事人說我請求要改為一般審理通常程序審理就可以 沒有在這種狀況裡面在這種狀況裡面我又講 去年我就講了通常簡義廷的法官不會幫你改成一般程序審理為什麼你知道嗎 副秘書長"},{"start":326.824,"end":347.954,"text":"來 廳長 你經過了 你知道 你再講一次跟委員報告啦 因為我以前也擔任過檢疫庭的法官其實以檢疫庭法官的立場你什麼時候當過檢疫庭的法官 幾年十幾年前 這個法律才剛改啦所以你的時代沒有這種制度啦沒有 我是要跟委員報告是說以檢疫庭法官的立場 他改成通常程序反而是他會歡迎的"},{"start":348.865,"end":355.471,"text":"因為我們的那個要件裡面綁兩個嘛一個是五百萬以上一個是案情複雜請委員讓我說明完畢您再做您的高見批評因為檢疫庭法官來講他改成通常程序要辦案期限是延長的"},{"start":371.311,"end":386.249,"text":"也就是說他不用在比較短的時間去做我們一般認為還有沒有另外一個理由是什麼還有沒有其他的說法那另外就是說當事人本身他如果對這個案件真的是要求通通的去與剛才委員垂詢的那個三峽的不幸往生案例為例"},{"start":387.69,"end":415.471,"text":"這種案例來講 正常狀況他就是案情複雜而且他一定是超過五百萬你現在是不死人間煙火喔他這一個個案 你聽我說喔他可以改為一般通常程序審理前提是檢疫庭的法官要繼續審理然後呢 調查程序可能會很久然後呢 不要忘了他的案件每個月交付來的他案件永遠累積在那裡"},{"start":416.877,"end":440.687,"text":"你們當初為什麼改成啊不把檢疫庭他如果改成一般審理就移交給一般庭去審理因為你們就是怕檢疫庭的法官偷懶你們自己當初就講怕他把所有案件都移到一般庭那把這種東西再留下來他不是搬石頭砸自己的腳我每次都用一把劍為了你一劍 還要拖後來還有這種改成一般審理我就繼續拖"},{"start":446.929,"end":461.078,"text":"永無寧日啊起碼這次簡怡婷的法官又不是笨蛋事實上簡怡婷的法官也想要這樣子我的辦公室接到幾個簡怡婷法官的家屬來陳情她在我質詢完以後 妳說妳說出了我們的心聲欸"},{"start":462.319,"end":483.219,"text":"你十幾年前是檢議庭的法官你現在不是你如果檢議庭怎麼審理的你都不知道如果改成一般通常程序審理還是你這個檢議庭的法官在審理他會做事他不可能我現在跟你說改成通常程序審理的比例有多高嗎通常程序審理的比例有多高你知道嗎多高你知道嗎好我有資料"},{"start":488.814,"end":514.617,"text":"他從檢疫程序改成一般審理通常程序審理110年5,520件裡面有42件112年9,350件裡面有52件113年的前10個月8,576件裡面有48件比例是七點千分之七點六千分之五點六千分之五點六"},{"start":517.8,"end":534.837,"text":"我今天要跟你說 當然我不是講三峽這個個案但我從三峽這個個案裡面要告訴你把修法改成所有交通事故 包括三峽這個案子全部一律交給警議庭去審理"},{"start":537.599,"end":557.236,"text":"這是多麼荒謬的事情而你到現在 你民視聽聽長你還說 簡義廷的法官很歡迎你這個是與事實不符你這個叫不食人間煙火你這個叫做吃飯卡中的你不知道你簡義廷的法官現在是做到要死"},{"start":559.261,"end":560.283,"text":"然後呢這個是忽略了當事人要實現當事人要實現自己的權利"},{"start":569.898,"end":587.015,"text":"委員我稍微回應兩點第一點當初為什麼要把道路交通案件改為檢驗案件就檢驗案件的本質它這是一個原則它會快速讓被害者加速獲償加速獲償交通案件樣態霸霸俏交通事件的樣態好幾種你"},{"start":590.078,"end":601.428,"text":"小小的擦傷 沒有什麼大的傷害 也是交通案件三死十二輕重傷 也是交通案件你們現在是疑慮欸 疑慮"},{"start":604.113,"end":626.26,"text":"委員我們現在是原則例外的問題原則原則原則是這樣子但你的例外事實上是很難的例外可以依法官來獨立依當事人的要求另外跟委員報告當事人的程序自主權我現在要求當事人的程序自主權如果你限縮在五百萬以上"},{"start":627.677,"end":649.467,"text":"那一百萬的 我損失一百萬的人 我的命 我的胸 我的命比五百萬的人 比較不大錢我的胸 我比一百萬的人 比較不大錢你們就可以去申請 我就不可以申請我現在人命有貴賤嗎 第一個第二個 當事人權利 自主 程序自主"},{"start":651.567,"end":676.551,"text":"我們要求當事人程序自主 你的門檻要降因為人的命是一樣的你五百萬是很大的門檻 很高的門檻我們還有一個門檻叫案情複雜所以實際上只要五十一萬案情複雜也可以轉那案情簡單 但是損失四百九十萬的這不就不值得改成一般審理了嗎那我問你 那我問你"},{"start":677.171,"end":680.513,"text":"你在整個生理程序裡面我講過我講過 文化資本高的 經濟資本高的我要幾天 我已經準備好 我要去跟他們說我的失能程度 我的傷重程度 然後我的看護費用我的撫養費用 我的肇事責任 我的醫療費用我通通準備好了 我看護費用 我整理好了文化資本高的 經濟資本高的沒問題 我都準備好了"},{"start":702.483,"end":710.511,"text":"可是呢 文化資本低的 經濟資本低的你以為到法院就是請求正義的開始你去那裡什麼都不知道 都沒準備然後跟你說 你這個一百萬的傷亡 你請求一百萬而已好啦 回去啦 沒啦 沒再開啦 算啦 沒啦"},{"start":719.858,"end":734.446,"text":"跟委員報告因為交通案件如果致人死傷一般都有刑事案件我剛才前面就講了 你就忘了嗎我現在剛才說的 刑事附帶民事 刑事聽來 刑事聽不來"},{"start":736.018,"end":750.94,"text":"他會刑事庭自己審理嗎通常法院的運作都是移出到民事庭對不對來 刑事庭 廳長實務上是這個樣子實務上是嘛 那移到民事庭以後民事庭以後是不是交給檢疫審理"},{"start":752.859,"end":777.127,"text":"對 但是因為證據資料都有啊 相關的證據資料在刑事案件都有 它會依照民調你每一件都說得很簡單的 我剛才甚至可以說六合十的甚至我剛剛都沒有把卷宗看完啦 不要再這麼騙啦所以我是要跟你講 我現在跟你講 至少你要給當事人給當事人一個 你們最喜歡講的程序自主權"},{"start":778.667,"end":803.867,"text":"而我們提出了要從檢疫審理改成一般審理的時候至少要不是你們決定我們也要有決定權你們想法大小通知我們都給改成這樣這已經很亂來啊然後我現在就說你們完全都不覺得自己有問題完全不覺得這個制度運作下來損害了多少當事人的權利這個才是最令人覺得"},{"start":808.106,"end":834.515,"text":"可悲的啦 司法 副秘書長 副秘書長 更不要再說你們黃玲倫當初在講胡說八道的 還說簡義廷改成一般庭審理不用寫書面裁定 這也亂說的然後我們還要求什麼 還說非上訴 說簡義廷的法官民事訴訟的時候 把照事責任的50看成20能不能非上訴到第三審 還說可以的"},{"start":836.676,"end":853.268,"text":"根本就不可能都不會贏的委員不好意思我再補充一下剛才委員提到說一定要下正式書面裁定沒有我們在113年12月16號也發一個通函有囉我叫你發你發了齁不是它在法律上本來就是一個程序性裁定啊程序上裁定喔你在什麼時候發的"},{"start":857.49,"end":878.475,"text":"113年12月26號對啊 我質詢你 要叫你發來 黃林倫 我叫他發來嘛那張公文沒給我看 我叫你給我看 你也沒有好 來 我剛才在說非上訴 第三審因為你的民事訴訟有別 簡義廷的訴訟有別於一般訴訟其實是不准 不准上訴到第三審的"},{"start":879.701,"end":894.174,"text":"剝奪掉了 除非有特殊要件啊除非是引用的法律錯誤啊那我剛才講了如果法官把被害者的私能比例是50 看成20他的判決就給他寫成20他能不能再上訴到第三審 不行"},{"start":895.743,"end":916.028,"text":"這制度面就有問題我是從三峽三個人死亡12個輕重傷一律都有這個問題來告訴你你們的修法問題很大再跟委員報告如果說像您剛才提到那個比例原則比例的問題明顯疏失他可以構成再整治室友"},{"start":917.284,"end":942.845,"text":"在審的事由法條上面是怎麼寫法條上面是怎麼寫這在我們民事訴訟法裡面法條上面寫的是四百六十六條不是來四百六十六條當事人僅得以其適用法規顯有錯誤為理由適用法規顯有錯誤才可以飛越上訴"},{"start":945.606,"end":965.686,"text":"請問,把失能的比例從50看成20,叫做適用法規,顯有錯誤嗎?我們在檢疫案件裡面是擴大的,它不只是這一個而已好啦,現在還可以,因為朱協議員站起來很久了啦副秘書長,我的最好問你啦,剛才講的一律,一律都以檢疫審理"},{"start":967.99,"end":976.756,"text":"這樣才對三峽的死亡三死 十二輕重傷的事故一律也是檢疫審理 這樣才好政策評估的結論是什麼"},{"start":998.018,"end":1015.532,"text":"你也不知道,不要再說了,再說他也是再說那套啦沒有變啦,你們沒有變你們也不所謂程序自主權,也不還給當事人啦你們的門檻也沒有下調啦你們所謂的可以上訴再審的條件,一樣是不行的啦好啦,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時52分）謝謝主席，是不是請司法院副秘書長？"],["主席：請王副秘書長。"],["林委員淑芬：副秘書長，我今天不是要跟你討論跟騷，而是要跟你討論日前三峽重大的死亡車禍案件造成了3死12傷，如果這樣子的話，你知道他們民事訴訟的審理是哪一種審理模式嗎？是一般審理，還是簡易審理？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我請廳長來回復……"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道？這個我去年就問過了，廳長知道。副秘書長，你現在是司法院最高行政管理的首長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：依目前的民事訴訟法，這個是屬於簡易案件，跟交通相關的……"],["林委員淑芬：我是要告訴你，如果是民事訴訟的官司，從110年、還是哪一年修法以後，全部一律改成簡易訴訟程序，也就是依民事訴訟法第四百三十三條之一，這是很重大的變革。但是如果是刑事附帶民事，是怎麼審理，你知道嗎？你也不知道。我再跟你講，如果是刑事附帶民事的官司，向刑事庭提出民事訴訟的審理，理論上刑事庭還是會移到民事庭去處理，而民事庭還是一樣交給簡易庭審理。請問你，如果3個人死亡、12個人輕重傷的民事訴訟官司是簡易審理，你可以接受嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我想當時在立法院修的時候是有其考量的。"],["林委員淑芬：我說我要藉著今天三峽這個造成3死、12個輕重傷的重大死亡車禍案件來告訴你，當初修法的時候只想到要趕快結案，可是訴訟的最核心是要實現當事人的權利、要實踐審判的公平、要得到一個公平的審判，你們卻為了趕快、趕快、趕快，把所有交通事故的民事訴訟全部改成簡易審理，而簡易審理的特色是什麼？它的特性是什麼？你不知道喔？"],["林廳長俊廷：委員，不好意思，可以容我來……"],["林委員淑芬：應以一次期日辯論終結為原則，但是我知道，民事庭有檢附資料給我過，我有看過，111年5,520個審結的民事訴訟裡面，有1,690次不是審一次；在112年9,350件裡面，有3,789件不是審一次；在113年的前十個月，8,576件裡有3,347件不是審一次，但是問題來了，為什麼要再跟副秘書長講？因為前一個副秘書長在這裡都亂講，立委質詢他，他都亂講。事實上，我現在要講，看起來好像法官審得很仔細、不只一次。我在這裡講過，簡易庭的法官每個月包括銀行債權等等，有超過100件以上要審結，基本上，他們都不會做事實證據的調查。你知道交通事故的審理不只是肇事責任的比例，還有醫療費用、看護費用、撫養費用需要調查，失能的比例要鑑定，所以當然不可能是一次。當時黃麟倫副秘書長就說很難一次，但是大多數都一次，還說當事人可以請求改為一般審理，可是當事人請求改成一般審理有一個要件，即要法院和法官同意。至於法院和法官同意，你們最喜歡講當事人程序自主權，在這個時候就沒有當事人程序自主權了，沒有！只能法院或法官同意，而不是當事人請求要改為一般審理、通常程序審理就可以，沒有！在這種狀況裡面，去年我就講了，通常簡易庭的法官不會幫你改成一般程序審理。副秘書長，你知道為什麼嗎？廳長，你聽過了、你知道，你再講一次。"],["林廳長俊廷：因為我以前也擔任過簡易庭的法官，以簡易庭法官的立場……"],["林委員淑芬：你什麼時候當過簡易庭的法官？"],["林廳長俊廷：十幾年前。"],["林委員淑芬：這個法律才剛改……"],["林廳長俊廷：對，我是要強調……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你的時代沒有這種制度！"],["林廳長俊廷：以簡易庭法官的立場，改成通常程序，反而是他會歡迎的。"],["林委員淑芬：你在這裡實在是胡說八道！"],["林廳長俊廷：再跟委員說明一下原因。"],["林委員淑芬：簡易庭的法官會歡迎改成通常程序？"],["林廳長俊廷：因為要件裡面綁兩個，一個是500萬以上，另一個是案情複雜，而簡易庭法官……"],["林委員淑芬：你真的胡說八道！"],["林廳長俊廷：請委員讓我說明完畢，您再發表您的高見、批評。因為對簡易庭法官來講，改成通常程序，辦案期限是延長的，也就是他不用在比較短的時間去做我們一般認為法定簡易的案件。"],["林委員淑芬：另外一個理由是什麼？還有沒有其他的說法？"],["林廳長俊廷：另外就是當事人本身如果對這個案件真的是要求通常程序，以剛才委員垂詢的那個三峽不幸往生案為例，這種案例來講，正常狀況就是案情複雜，而且一定是超過500萬。"],["林委員淑芬：你現在是不食人間煙火？"],["林廳長俊廷：不是，當初……"],["林委員淑芬：你聽我說，個案可以改為一般通常程序審理，前提是簡易庭的法官要繼續審理，然後調查程序可能會很久，不要忘了每個月交付來的案件永遠累積在那裡，你們當初為什麼不把簡易庭改成如果改一般審理就移交給一般庭審理？因為你們就是怕簡易庭的法官偷懶，你們自己當初就講，怕他把所有案件都移到一般庭，把這種東西再留下來，他不是搬石頭砸自己的腳嗎？每個月都近百件，為了一件拖延，如果下個月又有這種一樣改成一般審理的就繼續拖，永無寧日，簡易庭的法官又不是笨蛋！事實上，簡易庭的法官也想要這樣子，我的辦公室接到幾個簡易庭法官的家屬來陳情，他在我質詢完以後說「你說出了我們的心聲」。十幾年前你是簡易庭的法官，現在不是，你連簡易庭怎麼審理的你都不知道，如果改成一般通常程序審理，還是由你這個簡易庭的法官在審理，他會做到累死，他不可能！我現在跟你說改成通常程序審理的比例有多高？你知道嗎？"],["林廳長俊廷：不好意思，我們沒有這個統計。"],["林委員淑芬：我有資料。從簡易程序改成一般通常程序審理，110年5,520件裡面有42件，112年9,350件裡面有52件，113年的前十個月8,576件裡面有48件，比例是7.6‰、5.6‰、5.6‰。我現在要跟你說，當然我不是講三峽這個個案，但我從三峽這個個案裡面要告訴你，修法改成所有的交通事故包括三峽這個案子，全部一律交給簡易庭去審理，這是多麼荒謬的事情。而到現在你民事廳廳長還說簡易庭的法官很歡迎，這個是與事實不符，這個叫不食人間煙火，這個叫做「食飯坩中央」，你不知道簡易庭的法官現在是做得要死。"],["林廳長俊廷：委員，我可以回應……"],["林委員淑芬：這個是忽略了當事人要實現自己的權利。"],["林廳長俊廷：委員，我稍微回應兩點，第一點，當初為什麼要把道路交通案件改為簡易案件？就簡易案件的本質，這是一個原則，快速讓被害者加速獲償，加速獲得……"],["林委員淑芬：交通案件樣態「百百種」，交通事件的樣態好幾種，小小的擦傷沒有什麼大的傷害也是交通案件，3死12輕重傷也是交通案件，你們現在是一律。"],["林廳長俊廷：委員，我們現在是原則例外的問題，原則為了讓被害人趕快受償，所以是簡易案件。"],["林委員淑芬：原則是這樣子，但是你的例外事實上是很難！"],["林廳長俊廷：例外，可以由法官獨立依當事人的要求，另外跟委員報告……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要求當事人的程序自主權，如果你限縮在500萬以上……"],["林廳長俊廷：還要案情複雜。"],["林委員淑芬：那損失100萬的人，我的命、我的傷，我的命比500萬的人較不值錢，我的傷比500萬的人較不值錢，你們就可以申請，我就不能，現在人命有貴賤嗎？這是第一個。第二個，當事人權利自主、程序自主，我們要求當事人程序自主，你的門檻要下降，因為人命是平等的，500萬是很高的門檻。"],["林廳長俊廷：委員，我們還有一個門檻是案情複雜，所以實際上只要51萬案情複雜也可以轉。"],["林委員淑芬：案情複雜？那案情簡單但是損失490萬的，這個就不值得改成一般審理了嗎？"],["林廳長俊廷：這個要由個案來判定。"],["林委員淑芬：那我問你，在整個審理程序裡面，我講過，文化資本高的、經濟資本高的，我要開庭，我快準備好，我去跟他們講我的失能程度、傷重程度、看護費用、撫養費用、肇事責任、醫療費用，我通通準備好了，文化資本高的、經濟資本高的沒問題都準備好了。可是文化資本低的、經濟資本低的呢？你以為到法院就是請求正義的開始，去那裡什麼都不知道、都沒準備，然後跟你說你這個100萬的傷亡，你請求100萬而已，好了可以回去了，沒有再開了，結束了。"],["林廳長俊廷：跟委員報告，因為交通案件如果致人死傷，一般都有刑事案件，他才附民移過來，所以實際上前面都有調查證據。"],["林委員淑芬：我剛才在前面講過，你就忘了嗎？我剛才說的刑事附帶民事……刑事廳沒來？刑事庭會自己審理嗎？通常法院的運作都是移出到民事庭，對不對？來，刑事廳廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：實務上是這個樣子。"],["林委員淑芬：實務上是嘛！那移到民事庭以後是不是交給簡易審理？"],["林廳長俊廷：對，但是因為證據資料都有，相關的證據資料在刑事案件都有，他會……"],["林委員淑芬：證據資料都有？你把每一件都說得很簡單，我在這裡甚至可以說，如果是複雜的案件，法官連卷宗都沒有看完，別在這樣騙人！所以我要跟你說，至少要給當事人一個你們最喜歡講的程序自主權，而我們提出了要從簡易審理改成一般審理的時候，至少不是你們決定，我們也要有決定權，你們這樣修法，大小通吃都改成這樣，這已經很亂來了，然後我現在就說你們完全都不覺得自己有問題，完全不覺得這個制度運作下來，損害了多少當事人的權利，這個才是最令人覺得可悲。副秘書長，不用再講你們黃麟倫當初在胡說八道的，還說簡易庭改成一般庭審理不用寫書面裁定，這也是亂講的。然後我們還要求什麼？還說關於非上訴，簡易庭的法官在民事訴訟時把肇事責任50看成20能不能非上訴到第三審？還說可以！根本就不可能，都不行的。"],["林廳長俊廷：委員，不好意思，我再補充一下。剛才委員提到說一定要下正式書面裁定，沒有，我們在113年12月26日有發一個通函……"],["林委員淑芬：有，我叫你發你發了？"],["林廳長俊廷：不是，它在法律上本來就是一個程序性裁定，它本來就是一個記名改立口頭諭知……"],["林委員淑芬：好，程序上裁定。你在什麼時候發的？"],["林廳長俊廷：113年12月26日。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！我質詢後要你們發的，我要黃麟倫發的，那張公文叫你們給我看也沒有給我看。我剛才說非上訴第三審，因為民事訴訟簡易庭的訴訟有別於一般訴訟，其實是不准上訴到第三審的，被剝奪掉了，除非有特殊要件，除非是引用的法律錯誤。我剛才講了，如果法官把被害者的失能比例是50看成20，判決就寫成20，能不能再上訴到第三審？不行。這在制度面有很多問題，我是從三峽3個人死亡12個人輕重傷事故一律都有這個問題來告訴你，你們的修法問題很大。"],["林廳長俊廷：再跟委員報告，如果像您剛才提到的那個比例的問題明顯疏失，是可以構成再審之事由。"],["林委員淑芬：再審的事由法條上面是怎麼寫？"],["林廳長俊廷：這在民事訴訟法裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：法條上面寫的是第四百六十六條，當事人僅得以其適用法規顯有錯誤為理由，適用法規顯有錯誤才可以非上訴。請問把失能的比例從50看成20，叫做適用法規顯有錯誤嗎？"],["林廳長俊廷：我們在簡易案件裡面是擴大的，它不只是這個……"],["林委員淑芬：好，現在因為主席已經站起來很久了。副秘書長，我最後問你，剛才講的一律都以簡易審理，這樣對嗎？三峽的3死12輕重傷的事故，一律也是簡易審理，這樣好嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，這個部分上次在去年您垂詢過之後，司法院民事廳有做過政策評估，需要的話我們可以親自再去跟委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：政策評估的結論是什麼？你也不知道，沒關係！不用再說了，再說他也是說那一套！你們沒有變！所謂的程序自主權你們也不還給當事人，你們的門檻也沒有下調，所謂的可以上訴再審條件一樣是不行的。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。","接下來我們請翁曉玲委員。其實列席的官員可以多一點……委員詢問的時候可以把自己的專業，不用怕不好意思，這樣才會比較精彩一點，尤其是碰到翁曉玲委員，好不好？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}},{"id":"161918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a7e032a5baf0fa657330f39aabc08752512766cb13dea9389d5025eb6a0fa74945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:55:19 - 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指引難道只是做參考之用沒有道理骨頭大小因為後端處理的這個機械可能有一些問題所以也不盡其難的同一個標準那那就奇怪了"},{"start":82.315,"end":95.762,"text":"垃圾不落地 資源回收 資源的整個分類整個制定的政策的最高主管機關不是在環境部嗎環境部一旦制定完之後當然你地方政府就要有所遵循啊我們台灣是一個多數國家 一個小小的多數國家而已哪有一個辣雞分類主管維修 一個葬禮會有辦法說中央是這樣訂啦從那給你去做參考 因為你有記憶的問題 所以"},{"start":112.628,"end":116.776,"text":"所以有的奧比,所以有的價位,所以有的動作本首那些生命力大家怎麼好到這樣?沒有輸掉?不對吧?"},{"start":124.892,"end":137.661,"text":"你如果說今天高雷死了,中央有中央政策,中央政府在台灣現在就分比較多,高雷他自己管治,死後就可以提款,你要再提一塊,那我們不用作動嘛,那我們也不用訂標準嘛,對不對?但是很多社會福利,你中央訂了相關的法律訂完之後,你只要有一些進來進去,你抵觸到既有的社福來講,他是可以折衣折糕折衣去做處理嘛,"},{"start":154.972,"end":162.837,"text":"他還是要幫你抵觸咧但是怎麼會是分裂資源回收一個帳那裡可以一國獨自這我覺得不夠順利順利才可以做人靠的因為我們這是現場轉播的"},{"start":169.042,"end":190.449,"text":"好,謝謝委員指導,以藏瓦為例,有位館長認為它是比較長纖,它的破碎如果可以破碎得比較細,它就可以早去堆肥,如果它沒有辦法破碎得那麼細的話,它就可能會用作本所去處理。"},{"start":192.99,"end":219.415,"text":"阿不可這個委員的意見我們會參考是不是請大家再來檢討像類似骨頭或者是重業這種東西大家有沒有同意的一個做法這個我想我們可以來做討論不是因為我剛剛聽完委員的這個詮詢基本上應該是這麼講就是說我在可能我工作是在基隆那我就是要住在台北"},{"start":220.202,"end":244.058,"text":"但是我可能遇到中餐可能遇到晚餐我這樣的一個分類就只有一個隔壁的縣市就不一樣這不對啦這絕對不對我覺得環境部應該負起這個責任該怎麼處理就怎麼處理該怎麼去補強就怎麼去補強應該有一套統一的標準嘛不然身在一個島嶼的國家中華民國的一個國民"},{"start":245.441,"end":267.478,"text":"一個戰略的分類要因為不同縣市然後做不同的處置不同的處理跟應變這絕對不是政府為政之道好不好委員這個我們來檢討就是說看如何整合能夠有一個統一的方法我們來努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長一個月可以吧"},{"start":268.868,"end":275.491,"text":"可以 好 謝謝好這剛才是 抱歉啦 題材啦不是姿勢啦 別誤會我現在要去勤奮補充啦兩年前在這個地方嘛 之前我們補充都希望把這個綠營人才培訓培育課程將中低收跟還有深藏"},{"start":284.535,"end":304.633,"text":"全額做這樣一個補助那我很很很很很高興也很肯定部長可以這樣的積極作為馬上在這個21號上週就已經宣布綠營人才這個培育的課程納入中低收入戶及身上全額補助比較比較低收入的標準做全額的補助啦我再強調一次所以這邊我再度跟"},{"start":307.115,"end":330.045,"text":"部長表達最高的一個謝意跟敬意謝謝委員的指正這個讓全國的這些中低收入還有這些身上朋友看到一個曙光也看到這個事情的這樣的一個大家可以關注的一個亮點那我相信未來這個報表的人數會因為這樣子會有更好的一個成長的比例因為我們也想說可能這短短的一兩年或是兩三年綠領人才"},{"start":332.867,"end":346.398,"text":"就會追過所謂的AI這個人才的這樣的一個需求跟這個標準值所以我在這邊還是再度跟部長做一下的肯定不過勞工這一塊好像到現在還沒有消息"},{"start":347.539,"end":370.7,"text":"報告委員因為我跟洪部長有交換過兩次的意見那因為最主要是說他那邊的勞工跟我們在大學訓練的這個方式跟形態、樣態不一樣所以我們還在協調所以在委員再給我們一點點時間我們會討出一個方案那天在這裡問岸柏中岸柏中一直跟我說有一點意有所指好像環境部的問題"},{"start":379.046,"end":396.958,"text":"因為他們的勞工通常跟我們這個大學裡面受訓的樣態學生那個情境是不大一樣的他有特別提醒我這一點啊他們那邊那個他們每個分署等於是說等於是有他的這個樣態所以他們是希望我們去他們那邊上課啦所以這個還在協調當中"},{"start":398.539,"end":408.748,"text":"不是說有問題啦,我不是說你一定會去滾,是紅布丁的問題啦紅布丁也沒有在滾你啦,不會燒滾啦如果如果真的有,真的買了就無法解決,沒辦法請主席請你去喝咖啡這樣可以嗎?因為現在這都是,整體要怎麼協助勞工嘛,跟社會勞工嘛我想這也是要給布丁多一點面積的啦,好不好,就有這個部分嘛啊不知道這樣,我還不知道布丁是不是對及布"},{"start":425.301,"end":449.511,"text":"因為在大學的通識課程包括在高中生的環境的課程裡面其實都應該可以來討論如果把它用最快的速度把它納入對 包括我們那個下學等於下半年會針對高中生來推動啦這個教育部也同意了會跟我們合作高中生有OK 那就很棒了因為我們應該是可以邁向"},{"start":450.211,"end":466.525,"text":"全民綠領這樣的一個目標來打拚嘛所以可能各個階層所以現在反正現在政府已經有溝通了下個會期就可以來實施那最好不過了不過針對勞工還有失業勞工我還是希望部長可以做盡快的一個處理的方式啦好不好應該說一星期就改過來嘛好不好"},{"start":467.185,"end":474.991,"text":"因為那個他們我們也開過會啦我們要請我們院長稍微講一下跟委員報告一下因為他們因為他們勞工的課程有補貼還有一個他們的時數很晚因為我們只有48小時是針對大學那個教材都是針對大學那個層級在安排"},{"start":487.901,"end":500.956,"text":"所以現在要用事業勞工來做這個要去另外設計,不然勞工來上課說教材這樣沒那麼大額,那也是另外一個問題,所以我們不要討論怎麼操作模式比較好所以我們要討論不是兩個部隊的問題,是你的問題是不是,我們要討論這個操作模式不,我一定要向鄉長找出這個地點,地點不能說經營不是問題"},{"start":506.862,"end":533.29,"text":"他們已經經常有相關 看要不要去做一些調整而已所以這應該是 應該不是騙錢的問題應該是看要不要大家有一個共識我再過一天來把這個勞工跟社會勞工可以拿進去這個環境來做處理我相信這是一件很重要的事情 也很需要我今天來做一件事 好不好好 我們改天來處理啦好啊 好啊 再過一星期 也不是 也不是現在一直加幣啦好 好 好 好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":535.891,"end":538.635,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員的質詢謝謝部長的答詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":700,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時55分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉委員建國：也在請一下顏署長。"],["主席：有請顏署長。"],["彭部長啓明：召委好。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛王委員提到粽葉，粽葉怎麼會一國三制？有地方政府拿去堆肥的，也有地方政府當作是垃圾，我想這不是只有基隆、臺北市遇得到的問題，臺北市跟桃園也遇得到的這個問題，桃園市跟新竹市也遇到這個問題，桃園市也有人去臺中上班，對不對？上班完之後又從臺中回去桃園，在臺中有一個處理方式，在臺北也有一個處理方式，在桃園也有一個處理方式，我們中央的環境部難道沒辦法把粽葉統一一個規範嗎？它到底是垃圾，到底是要拿去堆肥，還是要拿去吃，當然外國人要吃我們沒意見，吃土也不是環境部管的，是FDA管的，但是我們的粽葉處理方式，環境部卻沒有一個統一的要求跟規範，指引難道只是做參考之用，沒有道理啊！骨頭大小因為後端處理的機械可能有一些問題，所以也不盡其然的統一一個標準，那就奇怪了。","垃圾不落地，資源回收，資源的整個分類，整個制定政策的最高主管機關不是在環境部嗎？環境部一旦制定完之後，當然地方政府就要有所遵循啊！我們臺灣是一個小小的國家而已，哪有一個垃圾分類資源回收……一個粽葉有辦法說中央是這樣定，剩下的讓你們自己去做參考，因為你有機械的問題，所以有的堆肥，所以有的吃下去，所以有的當成垃圾，這什麼年代了，哪有辦法這樣？署長，不對吧？你如果說今天鼓勵生小孩，中央有中央的政策，地方政府因為現在的財源比較多，它要鼓勵它自己的縣市生育率可以提高的話，要再多編一些經費，那我們不用去阻擋嘛！我們也不用給人家定標準，對不對？但是有很多社會福利，中央的相關法律訂完之後，你知道有一些敬老津貼牴觸到既有的社福來講，它是可以擇高、擇一去做處理，它還是一樣不能牴觸。但是怎麼會垃圾分類資源回收，一個粽葉居然可以一國多制，我覺得不可思議，署長，請你很明確的說明，因為我們這都是現場轉播的。"],["顏署長旭明：謝謝委員指導。以粽葉為例，有的縣市是認為它是比較長纖，它如果可以破碎得比較細，它就可以去堆肥，如果它沒有辦法破碎得那麼細的話，它就可能會當成垃圾去處理。不過委員的意見我們會參考，是不是請大家再來檢討，像類似骨頭或者是粽葉這種東西，大家有沒有統一的一個作法，這個我想我們可以來做討論。"],["劉委員建國：不是，因為我剛剛聽王委員的垂詢，基本上應該是這麼講，就是可能我工作是在基隆，我住是住在臺北，但是我遇到的中餐或晚餐，這樣的一個分類在隔壁的縣市就不一樣，這不對啦！這絕對不對！我覺得環境部應該負起這個責任，該怎麼處理就怎麼處理，該怎麼去補強就怎麼去補強，應該有一套統一的標準，不然生在一個島嶼的國家，中華民國的一個國民，一個粽葉的分類，要因為不同縣市然後做不同的處置、不同的處理跟應變，這不對啦！這絕對不是政府的為政之道，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，這個我們來檢討，就是看如何整合，能夠有一個統一的方法，我們來努力。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長、謝謝署長，一個月可以吧？"],["顏署長旭明：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。抱歉，剛才是提醒，不是指責，不要誤會。","我現在要肯定部長，兩星期前在這個地方也有質詢彭部長，希望綠領人才培育課程對於中低收入戶還有身障者做全額的補助，我很高興、也很肯定部長可以積極作為，馬上在上週21號就宣布，綠領人才培育課程納入中低收入戶及身障者全額補助，比照比較低收入戶的標準做全額的補助，我再強調一次，所以我在此再度跟部長表達最高的謝意跟敬意。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員的指正。"],["劉委員建國：這個讓全國的中低收入戶還有這些身障朋友看到一個曙光，也看到這件事情大家可以關注的一個亮點，我相信未來報名的人數會因為這樣而有一個更好的成長比率，因為可能這短短的一、兩年或是兩、三年，綠領人才就會追過所謂AI人才的需求跟標準值，所以我在這邊還是再度跟部長做一下肯定，不過勞工這一塊好像到現在還沒有消息？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我跟洪部長有交換過兩次的意見，最主要是因為他那邊的勞工跟我們在大學訓練的方式、型態及樣態不一樣，所以我們還在協調，請委員再給我們一點點時間，我們會討論出一個方案。"],["劉委員建國：那天在這邊問洪部長，洪部長一直跟我說……有一點意有所指，好像是環境部的問題。那你有要跟我說是因為勞動部的問題嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有啦！因為他們的勞工通常跟我們大學裡面受訓的樣態、學生的情境不大一樣，他有特別提醒我這點，他們每個分署有它的樣態，所以他們是希望我們去他們那邊上課，這個還在協調當中。"],["劉委員建國：我是說如果有問題，我不是說你一定會去推說是洪部長的問題，洪部長也沒有直接推給你，不會互相推卸啦！如果真的沒辦法解決，不然我請主席再請你們兩個喝咖啡，這樣可以嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：因為現在是針對要怎麼協助勞工及失業勞工，我想這部分部長也是要加快速度，好不好？不只這樣，我還拜託部長是不是和教育部溝通？因為對教育部來說，在大學的通識課程，包括在高中職的環境教育課程裡面，其實都應該可以來討論如何用最快的速度把它納入。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，我們下半年會針對高中生來推動，這個教育部也同意了，會跟我們合作，高中生有。"],["劉委員建國：OK，那就很棒，因為我們應該是可以邁向全民綠領這樣的一個目標來打拚嘛！所以可能各個階層……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在你們和教育部已經有溝通了，下個學期就可以來實施，那最好不過了，不過針對勞工還有失業勞工，我還是希望部長可以儘快有一個處理的方式，好不好？應該再一個禮拜就解決了，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：我們也開過會啦！請我們院長稍微講一下好不好？"],["劉委員建國：好啊，不然他站在這裡都沒讓他講，也不好意思。"],["劉院長宗勇：跟委員報告，因為他們勞工的課程有補貼，還有他們的時數很高，我們只有48小時，是針對大學的，那些教材都是針對大學那個層級在安排，所以現在要用於失業勞工要另外去設計，不然勞工來上課時會說這個教材他沒辦法學，那也會是另外一個問題，所以我們要討論怎樣的操作模式比較好。"],["劉委員建國：所以不是兩個部長的問題，是你的問題？"],["劉院長宗勇：不是，我們要討論這個操作模式……"],["劉委員建國：我一定要把兇手找出來，這第一點啦！第二點，勞動部跟我說經費不是問題，他們已經有相關的經費，只是要去做一些調整而已，所以這應該不是缺錢的問題，而是看大家如何有一個共識，有沒有辦法趕快把這些勞工跟失業勞工納入這個範圍來做處理，我想這是一件很正確的事情，也需要趕快來做這件事，好不好？"],["劉院長宗勇：好，我們趕快來處理。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！如果再一個禮拜沒處理好，就不是請你喝咖啡了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員的質詢，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161917","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161917","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40ae4994fc1300c1273ee4a52ea614c3ed712766cb13dea9389b53d9e6741251f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:54:58 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恢復軍事法庭之後 包含你還有檢察署吧 對不對所以我們現在 對不對 也就檢察署 還有檢院都在你國防部底下也有很多人會質疑 那這樣能不能夠完全的去保障司法人權所以我要講的就是說 時空環境變了 也許你換了位子 也換了腦袋"},{"start":267.572,"end":280.37,"text":"但是我覺得從一個反走過必留下痕跡如果你現在的你的理由是正確的並不代表102年這些理由通通不存在我剛剛就講過嘛就是你在講說你要做作戰準備"},{"start":284.255,"end":293.179,"text":"你五年前十年前所有的國防部長所有的一線的我們的這個關閉弟兄也都在做作戰的準備難道他們當時都是在睡覺嗎不可能所以我覺得現在要恢復軍事審判你們還是要跟社會大眾要有一定的溝通和對話而不是只是說我們現在就是變成是好像反正處處是共諜"},{"start":310.126,"end":316.251,"text":"然後我們現役軍人 每個人可能都會泄密 每個人都會通敵我們要講的是在軍中的文化 其實我們最擔心的就是莫名其妙的入人於罪而採取了軍事法庭之後 而使得在他的司法人權沒有受到一定的尊重 最後造成冤獄"},{"start":334.986,"end":339.872,"text":"所以我覺得這點是非常非常重要的所以當你講說所謂的重新開機的時候也請你要拜託你們要跟社會要有一定的對話那另外我時間到了但是我還是要特別提到就說在我可以先回答這個問題嗎"},{"start":353.57,"end":374.263,"text":"你可以用書面 我不浪費大家時間我簡單回答 我們要設軍事懷孕組織法我們要設軍事檢查署組織法我們要設獨立的人事審議委員會這是在過去都沒有的那我們所要重新開機的一定會是跟過去所被人所詬病的軍事審判制度是不一樣那我們一定會重視這一個真實的發現跟這個軍機的維護的這個雙重的要求"},{"start":379.868,"end":385.785,"text":"我希望我們在草案提出來以後我們也會跟社會做一個充分的溝通"},{"start":386.912,"end":393.137,"text":"這是必須的那另外我花一點點時間就是我們的這個在我們的軍品裡面紅色供應鏈事實上是一直層出不窮不能一方面你在抗中然後動不動就丟人家是中共同路人但是在我們的軍事的相關的軍品裡面一而再再而三的發現紅色供應鏈的滲透"},{"start":416.254,"end":421.899,"text":"這裡面像火箭推進劑的原料這個我也曾經質疑那是在部長擔任部長之前我也曾經質疑現在連戰鬥背心也有然後我們馬文君委員也提到了我們的無人機長期也去使用中國的這些零件這些部分請國防部應該提出相關的辦法而不是三不五時就會爆出來"},{"start":443.897,"end":447.238,"text":"就要爆出來有這些相關的這些事件而我們會看到相關單位也沒有什麼懲處啊所以我們的委員才會一直會接到不同的懲請所以這個部分是不是請國防部也給我們一個就是書面的一個資料書面的說法"},{"start":465.486,"end":467.087,"text":"針對要怎麼樣切斷紅色供應鏈避免紅色供應鏈滲透我們的軍品你們必須要有一個確切的一個做法包含怎麼樣去懲處 怎麼樣會去杜絕 可不可以"},{"start":484.403,"end":504.557,"text":"簡單兩點 第一點 確定 確確的要防止這個飛鴻的供應鏈一定要在台灣的本土產生出自我的產能而且要將所有的關鍵零組件都在台灣製造我想這個才是根本之道第二個 我們很多事情都是在我們驗收的階段就發現"},{"start":505.638,"end":531.153,"text":"而這些驗收階段發現之後我們就來排除所以結論就是說建立一個非紅的供應鏈的根本之道就是以無人機來講我們一定要在建立我們自主的產能這個在平時跟在暫時都是有需要的好 我請那個因為我們不要浪費大家時間如果可以的話就書面來提供我們資料好不好 謝謝好 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謝謝主席也謝謝剛剛主席的美言跟鼓勵的確這次去日內瓦參加相關的會議尤其是世界衛生大會有更多的國家不管是離岸相近或是我們邦交國真的都很希望台灣有機會不管是當觀察員或者是直接進到議場去參與討論都有給我們更多的支持"},{"start":36.545,"end":57.43,"text":"那也跟當地的議員們也討論到說這個我們的議員國會之間怎麼交流他們也很期待台灣給予更多的協助跟討論尤其是他們發現當地的青少年自殺比例其實越來越高他們也很擔心那他們也知道台灣做的努力"},{"start":58.11,"end":72.169,"text":"還有一些成果所以未來我們有更多的機會來跟他們一起共同討論其他還有很多現在不方便跟大家報告的地方我們找機會再來做討論謝謝主席那我們就請部長請部長"},{"start":77.948,"end":100.404,"text":"黃委員好部長好今天有三個部分來跟部長這邊做討論包括廚餘分類的政策還有移動噪音的防治第三項就是空污統計的資訊我想剛剛最後一項很多委員都有跟部長討論過那第一個部分就是廚餘分類我們什麼時候要吃粽子"},{"start":102.93,"end":120.387,"text":"應該過兩天嘛端午節所以這個種葉到底是當作什麼垃圾來處理是一般垃圾還是可以當作回收的廚餘不知道目前種葉是垃圾但是裡面沒吃完的種子是廚餘"},{"start":121.628,"end":146.784,"text":"是這樣子這是中央的態度嗎還是說每一個縣市有不同的處理方式是 向委員報告其實綜業這部分各縣市的處理方式不一致它會依照它後端的去處跟它處理方式會有不同是 所以重要的是各個縣市它自己處理的方式或者是它的量能不一樣所以它的規範不一樣"},{"start":147.805,"end":172.159,"text":"是的譬如說有一些是拿去養豬或者是他就不會把種葉認為是所以盡量把它吃完不過好像有一些外國人來台灣吃粽子的時候會把粽葉順便也吃下去他以為是一個生菜一樣不過我們可以看一下其實真的各個縣市有很大的不一樣那彰化縣跟新北市"},{"start":173.34,"end":193.423,"text":"它是當作我們看一下下一個畫面就知道三化縣跟新北市把它當作一般垃圾高雄市把它當作這個堆毀廚餘這個是很不一樣的地方那我們再看往下其實除了這個應景的種業以外我們發現"},{"start":194.784,"end":212.779,"text":"很多很多的這個廚餘的分類是差很多包括以骨頭為例那骨頭的話新北市要把這個骨頭當作這個其他的廚餘丟入一般垃圾來處理這個是新北市的做法然後我們看到台北市又不一樣"},{"start":213.96,"end":241.525,"text":"台北市有把這個當作廚餘堆毀的廚餘要回收這個回收是不分大小的骨頭只要是骨頭就把它當作台北市就把它當作這個堆毀廚餘那我們再看一下台東台東也不太一樣台東又把這個骨頭分為大骨頭小骨頭如果是屬於這個積壓壓的小骨頭當作一個不分生殖的廚餘來處理那如果是大骨頭的話"},{"start":243.065,"end":264.436,"text":"是變成一個處理一般垃圾來處理意思就是說剛剛署長也提到根據這個每一個縣市的處理方式不同考量狹內清除處理的設施還有去化管道食物的需求會處理到不同的方式覺得這樣好嗎"},{"start":266.277,"end":283.827,"text":"這樣的處理方式會不會對民眾造成一種我住在新北市我在台北市工作那我中午的處理垃圾模式就跟晚上我回到家處理垃圾模式不一樣這樣會不會造成困惑或困擾這部分不知道再過來有什麼好的方式沒有"},{"start":286.169,"end":304.261,"text":"因為廚餘的後端處理,有些像剛才提到的粽葉或者是骨頭這個因為它後面有沒有粉碎的設備,或者是它粉碎的設備到什麼程度等等之類的,它各地會有不同的處理方式"},{"start":305.643,"end":319.742,"text":"原則上在我們請到廚餘的時候各地的清潔隊如果發現這個分類不對會做交易那這種交易只要交一次民眾大概就可以接受了那當然還是會有因為像"},{"start":320.863,"end":337.073,"text":"委員所提的就是說我第一次來我可能騎不到這個不過整體而言那個清潔隊是第一線他會跟民眾講什麼去做的確是有這個狀況不過我也會去追著垃圾車"},{"start":338.594,"end":355.387,"text":"丟廚餘啦或是丟很多的垃圾我們很壓抑就是好像我們很努力的把它做好分類拿去把它撈起來好像它就就是你放到那個就跟我們期待的其實是不一樣的我是不太清楚大家的生活經驗如何"},{"start":356.047,"end":383.167,"text":"我意思是說 當我們很努力的想要配合各個縣市要做這些垃圾分類的時候往往到了現場 到垃圾現場發現他放置的方式或者是位置跟我們期待不一樣我們就覺得 這樣我們賺到錢要做這個處理垃圾的分類有意義嗎 這個部分所以我們才提了一些想是不是透過方便民眾執行跟落實分類的方式來做調理"},{"start":383.587,"end":407.498,"text":"那方便清潔隊員跟業者處理的處置模式來把這個垃圾的分類可以做得更好那當然也可以方便各級政府來做機關的宣傳那如果沒有辦法就好像剛剛署長所提到部長所提到的因為每一個縣市他處理垃圾的量能還有他的能力是不一樣的話那如果沒有辦法一步到位全國統一能不能做區域整合"},{"start":408.578,"end":435.734,"text":"生活圈理論上我剛舉個例子我平常在基隆以前是白天在基隆上班那我回到台北市的時候那我的處理模式如果區域能夠整合到一個程度的話對於未來垃圾的處理會不會讓民眾可以更有好的配合模式那這部分不知道部裡面有沒有可以進行規劃或者是如何跟各縣市來做一些統合"},{"start":436.556,"end":446.764,"text":"是 下面報告我們那個廚藝的部分其實在110年有訂定一個廚藝的分類的指引這當然指引是一個"},{"start":449.093,"end":468.682,"text":"後端有講究說各縣市可以依照它的實際的狀況再做細部的調整那區域的合作方面謝謝委員指導我們下去之後來跟各地方政府環保局來做一個協調談談看有沒有這個機會或者是大家如何去合作等這個部分我們來做"},{"start":469.582,"end":490.718,"text":"好啊在麻煩部裡面書裡面這邊來加油那第二個部分就是有關這個移動噪音員的防治之前也有跟部長討論過我目前知道很多移動噪音其實很對於尤其在渡會區裡面對民眾的影響不管是在深夜啦或者是突然一個大的噪音造成的影響其實蠻大的"},{"start":492.219,"end":508.252,"text":"那這邊所造成的這個車輛噪音稽查下來差不多是有佔了11.07%那這部分我們也知道在取締上有某一些的困難度所以上一次部長也提到說希望能夠針對於這個源頭做管理"},{"start":510.715,"end":526.449,"text":"這邊有提了兩個部分就是除了這個設置聲音照相透過科技執法來取締噪音車以外那就是改裝排氣源的這個源頭管理那不知道目前執行狀況有沒有可以提供我們做參考的地方"},{"start":527.328,"end":552.253,"text":"向委員報告目前這個有關排氣管認證的部分目前已經在實施從今年1月1號開始那我們也提供就是經本部認證有400多組的這個排氣管讓民眾選擇那此外在那個聲音照相的部分我們目前其實正在爭取公務預算在今年年底的時候我們希望全國可以設置300套然後到118年的時候能夠設到600套來增加這個科技執法的量能"},{"start":552.973,"end":581.159,"text":"是 所以取締的量還有本身的源頭管理都有在有開始 今年1月的時候開始OK 好 那我們期待會有一些成果出來那最後就是有關於這個空污統計的資訊我想很多委員都已經剛剛也跟部長討論過那王明遠委員這次其實我們也一起去瑞士包括劉淑檳委員對於當地的空氣的確都非常羨慕當然他們有他們的環境也有他們的條件"},{"start":582.339,"end":602.332,"text":"那針對這部分不知道除了說當初部長很希望大家更能理解很多的空氣污染除了我們現在的政策之外還有其他的一些科學數據告訴民眾說我們空氣的品質當然還可以再進步"},{"start":603.793,"end":621.332,"text":"可是一些科學根據也告訴我們大家民眾其實除了如何保護自己以外也知道努力的方向跟進步的部分那這部分可不可以請部長利用這個時間再跟全國民眾做一些說明好 謝謝委員因為其實瑞士"},{"start":622.793,"end":647.069,"text":"這個為什麼比較好它跟人口的密度有很大的關係其實它的人口密度跟台灣是差別很大那人其實生活裡面就會產生很多的污染物例如說我們的煮菜或各方面那我們一般的這個空污的計算呢基本上PM2.5是代表所有污染物包含SARS、NAC直接或是衍生性的污染物所以我們通常都是用PM2.5來做一個計算所以現在國際的這個期刊假設我們談癌症"},{"start":649.531,"end":665.384,"text":"跟這種所謂的健康的關係都是用PM2.5來做代表那因為其實空污非常的深那很多人不是很瞭解所以我們其實五月中的時候也發布了這個空瓶的白皮書那當然這個部分因為我們才剛完成所以未來我們會強化跟社會大眾的一個溝通"},{"start":668.166,"end":692.117,"text":"因為其實我們日常生活當中我們不管是家裡面其實就有很多產生PM2.5的來源那我們在室內的機會會比較多當然我必須說我們戶外的那個管制我們環境部這是我們的職責我們會要求不管是公營機關或是私立其實我們都有管制他們每一根煙囪我們都有這個監控的這個設備在那邊我們未來一定會嚴格的來管制希望的污染物可以減量"},{"start":693.438,"end":714.954,"text":"其實像部長所提到的瑞士它的面積是四萬平方公里左右比台灣稍微多一點他們人口是八百萬左右只有我們的三分之一左右所以生活條件不一樣當然造成的這個環境都不太一樣不過的確也希望大家繼續努力就麻煩部長謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時43分）謝謝主席，也謝謝剛剛主席的美言跟鼓勵，的確這次去日內瓦參加相關的會議，尤其是世界衛生大會，有更多的國家，不管是理念相近國家，或者我們的邦交國，真的都很希望臺灣有機會，不管是當觀察員，或者是直接進到議場去參與討論，都有給我們很多、更多的支持，也跟當地的議員們也討論到我們的議員、國會之間怎麼交流，他們很期待臺灣給予更多的協助跟討論，尤其是他們發現當地的青少年自殺比例其實越來越高，他們也很擔心，他們也知道臺灣做的努力，還有一些成果，所以未來我們有更多的機會來跟他們一起共同討論。其他還有很多現在不方便跟大家報告的地方，我們找機會再來做討論，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好。"],["王委員正旭：我們就請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。今天有三個部分來跟部長做討論，包括廚餘分類的政策，還有移動噪音的防制，第三項就是空污統計的資訊，我想最後一項，剛剛很多委員都有跟部長討論過。第一個部分就是廚餘分類，我們什麼時候要吃粽子？應該過兩天嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：端午節。"],["王委員正旭：是，端午節。所以這個粽葉到底是當什麼垃圾來處理，是一般垃圾，還是可以當作回收廚餘，我不知道目前的……"],["彭部長啓明：粽葉是垃圾，但是裡面沒吃完的粽子是廚餘。"],["王委員正旭：是這樣子，這是中央的態度嗎？還是每一個縣市有不同的處理方式？"],["顏署長旭明：是，向委員報告，其實粽葉這部分，各縣市的處理方式不一致，它會依照後端的去處跟它處理方式會有不同。"],["王委員正旭：所以重要的是，各個縣市它自己處理的方式或者是它的量能不一樣，所以它的規範不一樣。"],["顏署長旭明：是的，譬如有一些是拿去養豬等，他就不會把粽葉認為是……"],["王委員正旭：是，所以儘量把它吃完啦，不過好像也有一些外國人來臺灣吃粽子的時候，會把粽葉順便也吃下去，他以為是像一個生菜一樣。不過我們可以看一下，其實真的各個縣市有很大的不一樣，彰化縣跟新北市把它當作一般垃圾，高雄市把它當作堆肥廚餘，這個是很不一樣的地方，其實除了應景的粽葉以外，我們發現很多很多的廚餘分類是差很多，包括以骨頭為例，新北市是把骨頭當作其他的廚餘丟入一般垃圾來處理，這個是新北市的作法。我們看到臺北市又不一樣，臺北市是把這個當作堆肥的廚餘要回收，這個回收是不分大小的骨頭，只要是骨頭，臺北市都把它當作堆肥廚餘。我們再看一下臺東，臺東也不太一樣，臺東又把骨頭分為大骨頭、小骨頭，如果是屬於雞、鴨的小骨頭，當作一個不分生熟的廚餘來處理；如果是大骨頭的話，反而是變成一般垃圾來處理。意思是，剛剛署長也提到，是根據每一個縣市的處理方式不同，考量轄內清除處理的設施，還有去化管道、食物的需求會處理到不同的方式。覺得好嗎？這樣的處理方式，假設民眾住在新北市，但是在臺北市工作，他中午處理垃圾的模式跟晚上回到家處理垃圾的模式不一樣，這樣會不會造成他的困惑或困擾？這部分不知道再過來有沒有有什麼好的方式？"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，因為廚餘的後端處理，有些像剛才提到的粽葉或者是骨頭，因為它後面有沒有粉碎的設備，或者是它粉碎的設備到什麼程度等等之類的，各地會有不同的處理方式，不過原則上在傾倒廚餘的時候，各地清潔隊如果發現分類不對會做教育，這種教育只要教育一次，民眾大概就可以接受，當然還是會有，因為像委員所提的，我第一次來，我可能會拿錯，不過整體而言，清潔隊是第一線，他們會跟民眾講怎麼去做。"],["王委員正旭：對，的確是有這個狀況，不過偶爾我也會去追著垃圾車丟廚餘或是丟很多的垃圾，我們很訝異，好像我們很努力的把它做好分類，拿去那邊之後，好像他又說要放到哪一個，跟我們期待的其實是不一樣的，我是不太清楚大家的生活經驗如何，我的意思是當我們很努力的想要配合各個縣市要做這些垃圾分類的時候，往往到了垃圾現場，發現他放置的方式或者是位置跟我們期待不一樣，我們就覺得這樣我們要那麼努力做廚餘、垃圾的分類，有意義嗎？這個部分，所以我們才提出，是不是透過方便民眾執行跟落實分類的方式來做調理，方便清潔隊員跟業者處理的處置模式來把垃圾的分類做得更好？當然也可以方便各級政府來做機關的宣傳，如果沒有辦法，就好像剛剛署長所提到、部長所提到的，因為每一個縣市處理垃圾的量能，還有它的能力是不一樣，如果沒有辦法一步到位全國統一，那麼能不能做區域整合？你在生活圈，就像我剛剛舉的例子，我以前白天在基隆上班，我回到臺北市的時候，我的處理模式，如果區域能夠整合到一個程度的話，對於未來垃圾的處理，會不會讓民眾可以更有好的配合模式，這部分不知道部裡面有沒有進行規劃，或者是如何跟各縣市來做一些統合？"],["顏署長旭明：向委員報告，廚餘的部分其實在110年有訂定一個廚餘的分類指引，當然指引是後端，就是各縣市可以依照它的實際狀況再做細部的調整。那區域的合作方面，謝謝委員指導，我們下去之後來跟各地方政府環保局做一個協調，談談看有沒有這個機會或者是大家如何去合作等，這個部分我們來做。"],["王委員正旭：好啊！再麻煩署裡面加油。第二個部分是有關移動噪音源的防治，之前也有跟部長討論過，我目前知道很多移動噪音，尤其在都會區裡面對民眾的影響，不管是在深夜或者是突然一個大的噪音造成的影響其實滿大的，這邊所造成的車輛噪音，稽查下來差不多是有占了11.07%，這部分我們也知道在取締上有某些的困難度，所以上一次部長也提到說希望能夠針對源頭做管理，這邊有提了兩個部分，就是除了設置聲音照相，透過科技執法來取締噪音車以外，還有改裝排氣源的源頭管理，不知道目前的執行狀況有沒有可以提供我們做參考的地方？"],["黃司長偉鳴：向委員報告，有關排氣管認證的部分，目前已經在實施，從今年1月1號開始，我們也提供經本部認證的四百多組排氣管讓民眾選擇。此外，在聲音照相的部分，我們目前其實正在爭取公務預算，在今年年底的時候，我們希望全國可以設置300套，然後到118年的時候，能夠設到600套，來增加科技執法的量能。"],["王委員正旭：所以取締的量還有本身的源頭管理都有在……"],["彭部長啓明：有開始，今年1月的時候開始。"],["王委員正旭：OK，好，那我們期待會有一些成果出來。最後是有關於空污統計的資訊，我想很多委員剛剛都已經跟部長討論過，王育敏委員這次其實我們也一起去瑞士，包括劉書彬委員，對於當地的空氣的確都非常羨慕，當然他們有他們的環境，也有他們的條件。針對這部分，當初部長很希望大家更能理解很多的空氣污染，除了我們現在的政策之外，還有其他的一些科學數據告訴民眾說，我們空氣的品質當然還可以再進步，可是一些科學根據也告訴我們的民眾，除了如何保護自己以外，也知道努力的方向跟進步的部分，這部分可不可以請部長利用這個時間，再跟全國民眾做一些說明？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。因為其實瑞士為什麼比較好？它跟人口的密度有很大的關係，其實它的人口密度跟臺灣是差別很大，人其實生活裡面就會產生很多的污染，例如我們的煮菜或各方面。我們一般的空污計算，基本上PM2.5是代表所有污染物，包含直接或是衍生性的污染物，所以我們通常都是用PM2.5來做計算，現在國際的期刊假設在談癌症跟所謂健康的關係，都是用PM2.5來做代表。其實空污非常的深，很多人不是很了解，所以我們5月中的時候也發布了空品的白皮書，當然這個部分因為我們才剛完成，所以未來我們會強化跟社會大眾的溝通，因為在我們日常生活當中，不管是家裡面其實就有很多產生PM2.5的來源，而我們在室內的機會會比較多。當然我必須說戶外的管制是我們環境部的職責，我們會要求不管是公營機關或是私立，其實我們都有管制，他們每一根煙囪，我們都有監控的設備在那邊，我們未來一定會嚴格地來管制，希望污染物可以減量。"],["王委員正旭：是。其實像部長所提到的瑞士，它的面積是4萬平方公里左右，比臺灣稍微多一點，他們人口是800萬左右，只有我們的三分之一，所以生活條件不一樣，當然造成的環境都不太一樣，不過的確也希望大家繼續努力，就麻煩部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。有請王委員。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：接下來麻煩我們的召委來發言，劉建國召委請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161915","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161915","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a3778bfa82b1aa256ee4a52ea614c3ed7d00acb659e6b7ab01bdf61f3f9847d925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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補償就是金額啊 經費啊因為你很難防治嘛根本無法防治嘛你說變成沒有聲音不可能嘛你要符合那個噪音管制法的相關的噪音"},{"start":296.152,"end":321.644,"text":"不可能嘛,所以要補償嘛好,部長無法回答,沒關係事實上確實是不用問他們了我來給他們,我給部長看部長是想要說明一下不用,上次說明過了,他有來說明了好,我們來看"},{"start":323.851,"end":350.55,"text":"本席所提的國防部的預算解凍報告解凍案本席凍結國防部114年編列國防政策規劃及督導稅出預算共總共你的稅出預算是四億三千兩百四億三千兩百多萬本席只有凍結一千萬"},{"start":355.051,"end":366.84,"text":"100萬,講錯了,100萬本席只有凍結100萬因為我是公務員出身,我不會凍結很多就是希望國防部能夠積極的做"},{"start":370.368,"end":396.494,"text":"結果呢 你們的意見是什麼本案凍結之經費 均為辦理機場噪音防治補助首席作業費涉及民眾潛意 又要造謠了4億多的我只有凍100萬也沒有指定項目啊只針對國防政策規劃及督導啊這個項目很多啊"},{"start":397.827,"end":425.494,"text":"哎呀 光法律事務就三千多萬了對不對凍結那個法律事務三千多萬有什麼關係一百萬而已啊何況我們要指定啊非得要說涉及民眾權益這個就是造謠而且還說本不持續檢討修訂沒有要訂 沒有要修啊"},{"start":427.932,"end":446.076,"text":"那麼簡單要修這個很簡單啊把那個第一計劃拿掉就好了這麼容易的事情啊就是第一項修修修正而已啊把讓他符合讓他符合噪音管制法第1717條110年1月20號的"},{"start":450.31,"end":478.673,"text":"修正條文委員是不是可以讓我們有個說明我聽過他們說了我只要請部長你要敢騰順受一個部落要開自航機場我們願意你要知道當時的年代說簽就簽啦也沒什麼完全沒有補償啦土地還是變成國有土地後來是我們去爭取才變成私有土地的"},{"start":480.78,"end":506.223,"text":"現在只是為了噪音補償你要有設身處事如果你是住在這裡竟然不如民航機場的噪音補償對不對國防預算這麼多要輪也要輪十年了光輪那個設施的部分了對不對"},{"start":508.704,"end":534.673,"text":"這什麼民權國家民主國家對不對我是要讓部長第一個你是寫法律這個法就不對了修的你們修的這個辦法就是不對所以不是你我為什麼不請他們說明呢他們就是沒有錢的沒有錢所以只好這樣修啊然後呢居然聽地方政府的意見"},{"start":536.893,"end":553.625,"text":"因為地方政府說要怎麼樣這是不對的聽地方政府聽地方政府的意見你要依法行政部長當然我不會堅持要凍結公務員出生也沒辦法但是部長"},{"start":564.932,"end":590.32,"text":"你學法的要指導這些國防部的同仁都不是學法的以上 謝謝很遺憾我也沒有給我們說明的機會好不好我希望你說明啊 因為你都不說明啊不是 因為你的意思我要說明你就不讓我說明好 請說因為你一直要你們的同仁說我就不 我聽過他們說了啊"},{"start":592.503,"end":595.952,"text":"他們跟我講過所以我就說不要為難他們好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時44分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：不用！上次說明過了，他有來說明了。好，我們來看本席所提的國防部預算凍結案，國防部114年編列國防政策規劃及督導歲出預算總共是四億三千兩百多萬元，本席只有凍結一百萬，因為我是公務員出身，我不會凍結很多，就是希望國防部能夠積極的做，結果你們的意見是什麼？本案凍結之經費均為辦理機場噪音防制補助所需作業費，涉及民眾權益，又要造謠了！四億多我只有凍一百萬，也沒有指定項目，只針對國防政策規劃及督導，這個項目很多，光法律事務就三千多萬了，對不對？凍結法律事務有什麼關係？一百萬而已，何況我沒有指定啊！非得要說「涉及民眾權益」，這個就是造謠！而且還說本部持續檢討修訂，沒有修啊！要修這個很簡單，把第一計畫拿掉就好了，這麼容易的事情，就是第一項修正而已啊，讓它符合噪音管制法第十七條110年1月20號的修正條文。"],["顧部長立雄：委員是不是可以讓我們有一個說明？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我聽過他們說了。"],["顧部長立雄：不是……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我只要請部長感同身受，一個部落要開志航機場，我們願意，你要知道當時的年代說遷就遷啊！完全沒有補償啦！土地還變成國有土地，後來是我們去爭取才變成私有土地的。現在只不過為了噪音補償，你要設身處地，如果你住在這裡，竟然不如民航機場的噪音補償，對不對？國防預算這麼多，要輪也要輪十年了，光輪那個設施的部分，這什麼民權國家？民主國家？部長，第一個你是學法律的，你們修的這個辦法就是不對，我為什麼不請他們說明呢？他們就是沒有錢，所以只好這樣修啊，然後他竟然聽地方政府的意見，因為地方政府說要怎麼樣，這是不對的！部長，你要依法行政啊！部長，當然我不會堅持要凍結，公務員出身也沒辦法，但是部長你學法的，要指導這些國防部同仁，他們都不是學法的，以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：很遺憾，委員沒給我們說明的機會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我希望你說明，看你都不說明啊！"],["顧部長立雄：不是，因為你的意思，我要說明，你不讓我說。"],["鄭天財Sra 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就案件類啊我也去做了這個調查法服的協助的案件類最大宗有10142件 18%其實是幫助人民做還債也就是信用卡的卡債"},{"start":256.604,"end":280.398,"text":"所以以案件來講 也不是什麼詐欺類最多 刑事案件最多所以 除了對象 不是只幫加害人他是一視同仁的 既弱就貧的然後在案件類 也不是服務詐欺犯服務那些刑事案件的罪犯而是來幫助民眾最需要的而且因為他就是弱勢所以很多人是因為弱勢 他可能去借錢 可能去卡債"},{"start":281.839,"end":299.531,"text":"所以你們最高的案類18%都是在協助民眾還債的這一類我的資訊正確嗎是的那現在法服受到這樣我給您一點點時間好不好給您30秒好好對社會正向的訴求不要汙名化法服"},{"start":300.994,"end":322.409,"text":"當然對法輔的誤解我們已經多年來一直在澄清我也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法輔這是我們施法裡面在輔助人民很安定的一股力量有22個分會4000多名法輔律師在幫全民做各種的法律服務絕對不是指因為特定"},{"start":323.731,"end":337.772,"text":"限定說是加害人或是被害人而是只要他是生活弱勢或者是說經濟上的弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當輔助的我們都一起包含在內"},{"start":339.014,"end":361.916,"text":"很重要的一個觀念我覺得我們的法治教育立委最需要受法治教育了這一年來其實法服是在程序正義上來幫忙所以程序正義上是一視同仁的法服不會成為法院之上的法院法服不會先去判定你這個來懲請協助的人是加害人是被害因為"},{"start":362.777,"end":382.139,"text":"不論法律上的加害被害都是要透過司法的偵查跟審判才能夠斷定嘛無罪推定嘛是所以辛苦你們了我們持續做對的事今天也有一個案子解凍是跟法輔被凍結了翁小玲委員凍結了一千萬我希望能夠替你們伸張正義謝謝謝謝好您請回好下一頁"},{"start":385.034,"end":403.647,"text":"那跟騷法的三週年 回到今天的這個專報的主題其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一三年了我們需要好好的檢視 我們先用數字2022年上路到現在 我們各警察機關受理的案件有8488件家暴類38% 一般跟騷62%左右"},{"start":409.711,"end":436.932,"text":"而以2024去年一整年呢 跟騷處理有2806件當中對我們最有意義的是說警方呢 警政部門核發了書面告誡的比例其實很高 67%而法院核發跟騷保護令的比例也很高 67%而我認為很有意義的是經由檢方核發書面告誡他再犯跟騷的比例是低於10%"},{"start":438.493,"end":457.831,"text":"而且經由法院核發了跟騷的保護令之後呢在持續加害持續跟騷的低於5%換言之就達到我們當初的立法以及制度的一個有效的一個陰影兩位是不是都看到正面的結果哪一位要代表"},{"start":459.577,"end":474.932,"text":"那個同一位人所說的齁那其實我們那個法院那個統計裡面可能是那個基準不一樣我們的甚至還到達七成是是是到七成法院核發到達七成好我整理的是百分之六十七點三好下一頁"},{"start":476.195,"end":503.087,"text":"但是呢當初我們在倡議的時候在立法的時候都一直認為他的對象啊都要限縮於與性及性別有關當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見當然我們理解警政部門認為資源有限警政部門認為說先優先從這種高風險的案件因為在立法那個時候是很多情殺啦跟騷之後被殺害"},{"start":505.948,"end":530.15,"text":"所以優先從這種對象來下手 但是上路了三年以後是不是可以更妥協的去我們可不可能嚴議來增訂成案的排除條款更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類為什麼這麼說呢 可能是傑次長要回應我發現很多跟騷的人是被黑道討債的啦"},{"start":532.248,"end":552.719,"text":"對不對 那像這種案類很清楚是不是就可以納入一個跟騷的範圍各位很棒因為這個是內政部主管的法令那你認為呢我想這個要經過通盤的研議因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有那時候你還是立委你也參與這個法律討論那我們內政部的代表好嗎 那個馬次長"},{"start":556.181,"end":570.39,"text":"如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關其實你真的沒有辦法幫助我說黑道討債就是很明顯的一個案例啊那派黑道來跟騷你造成你身心靈的壓力甚至有進一步的暴力事件來次長"},{"start":572.257,"end":595.313,"text":"其實我們除了黑道到暴力討債之後我們還有聚眾滋擾跟鄰里糾紛還有記者追蹤那總共有四個樣態是跟目前的更少法的構成要件 這是不一樣那有一個比較重要的考量就是說因為如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動這樣的一個過程"},{"start":596.474,"end":600.558,"text":"那對一般人來講但我在聚焦嘛我說那黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的"},{"start":602.404,"end":628.744,"text":"跟委員報告 因為目前的話黑照討債主要是依照刑法跟我知道啊對相關的條文我覺得這個大哉問啦當初我們在立法的時候我講過的話我今天還是希望能夠好好在三週年因為原本三週年上路你們就要檢視法律好下面的意見下一頁我再講下一頁請你們一併納入檢視了也就是相對人的治療性的處遇計畫"},{"start":630.385,"end":653.126,"text":"比照家暴案例我發現一個我講重點家暴案例對於這些處遇計劃其實他是有警政跟社政跟衛政的協力才能夠提出具體的處遇性計劃也能夠有效來幫助但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為對於處遇"},{"start":654.927,"end":662.913,"text":"就真的沒有辦法做到是不是有這樣子的問題還有包括那個申請人的那個要預繳預繳這個費用整個不友善的儲遇性計畫"},{"start":666.325,"end":687.131,"text":"各位知道這個被害人要預繳這個部分我們跟衛福部在協調因為它的確是一個不合理的設計而且不低耶對這個不合理這個我們都從被害人的角度我們都知道這個有問題什麼時候會有答案我們會盡快因為我們在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表我們有見過面好加速好嗎好"},{"start":688.231,"end":703.251,"text":"那其他的廚藝計畫那委員剛剛有提到就是說廚藝性計畫的話如果我們法院根據《更少法》第12條第一項第三款有合法保護令的話它的治療性廚藝計畫它是有強制力的可是那要"},{"start":705.042,"end":722.032,"text":"這相對困難嘛對那如果說是那個其他的法條他有這個所謂的認知輔導或教育的話他就不是具有強制力的部份市長你可能不是這方面的專業啦你是防災的專家啦我建議喔三周年就是要好好檢視跟騷法我提出來的幾個"},{"start":723.152,"end":746.074,"text":"譬如說範圍的界定以及這個處遇性的計畫內容不夠具體不夠明確以至於它過偏於在警政如何讓衛政跟社政的系統能夠融入然後還有剛剛你說的那個申請人預繳的那個處遇性費用我當然支持要馬上能做的馬上做我希望我們未來還有機會來討論好好去把三週年上路以後的檢視計畫"},{"start":748.236,"end":756.488,"text":"檢討計畫再提出來否則我還是正面的肯定我剛剛第一頁秀出來的相當高的警察員警當初都很怕案類很多"},{"start":757.875,"end":778.025,"text":"我覺得還是一個很好的執行成績嗎我們很努力啊因為這個部分的確一定要保護這個部分的好我們希望保護能夠不漏接不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人的心理壓力好嗎我們今天就希望等一下司法院還有稍後國安會的解凍都能夠順利好謝謝我們完整檢討謝謝謝謝吳司堯委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時39分）音量要高還是低？"],["主席：嘿嘿，你們自己控制。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘。"],["主席：請王副秘書長。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後是法務部政次。"],["主席：黃次長。"],["吳委員思瑤：我還要特別請法扶的莊董事長。"],["主席：請。"],["王副秘書長梅英：吳委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦了。今天題目有點多，我們把握時間。","最近有立法委員公然批判法扶只幫加害人，他批判了法扶幫加害人是司法的嚴重傾斜，其實不光是張啓楷委員在上週的這個言論，早在今年一、二月我就觀察到整個媒體的報導，輿論嚴重操作對於法扶的污名化。譬如說我看到1月份媒體特別扭曲說法扶幫助的都是詐欺犯，幫助的案類前5名都是加害者，這是搭配。我不曉得張啓楷委員是不是剛好看到一、二月那個錯誤的報導，所以讓他做出這種嚴重打擊法扶，而且完全不符合事實的陳述。任何一個立法委員發言真的要慎重，否則對於成立了21年的法扶是一個傷害。法扶從3個分會開始，現在有22個分會，為了捍衛憲法的訴訟權和平等權，為了司法的公平性而成立法扶，有多少律師群和專業人士來投入！","所以我想就教董事長，先講服務對象好了，法扶都只幫忙加害人嗎？"],["莊董事長秋桃：當然不是。首先感謝委員對於法扶的支持，您剛剛所提問的，其實一般民眾是會這樣想的，多年來法扶一直在宣導，我們法扶扶助的對象絕對不叫做幫助加害人。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們都是在濟弱救貧嘛！"],["莊董事長秋桃：對。在法治國家裡面，我們認為有這個必要對一些在天平上……在審判庭的時候，檢察官就代表被害人，他對於被告直接控訴了，需要有一個均衡的力量在審判上各自聽到這個聲音。"],["吳委員思瑤：我這裡有一個資訊，就我所調查的資料，我想立委站上質詢台都要做功課，而不是像張啓楷這樣無的放矢，還涉及抹黑造假。法扶的服務對象48%是經濟弱勢的家庭，34%是由法院轉介的強制辯護案件，所以並沒有選擇你是加害人或受害人，因為法扶在接案受理的時候不能未審先判嘛！所以我的資訊是正確的嗎？"],["莊董事長秋桃：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以法扶不是只幫加害人嘛！"],["莊董事長秋桃：當然。"],["吳委員思瑤：就服務對象絕對不是。"],["莊董事長秋桃：絕對不是。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是就是不是，請張啓楷委員收回他的話，甚至要向服務法扶的這些專業人士、法律界的人士道歉。"],["莊董事長秋桃：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：第二個是就案件類，我也去做了調查，法扶協助的案件類最大宗有1萬142件，18%其實是幫助人民做還債，也就是信用卡的卡債，所以以案件來講，也不是什麼詐欺類最多、刑事案件最多，所以除了對象不是只幫加害人，而是一視同仁的、濟弱救貧的，然後在案件類也不是服務詐欺犯、服務那些刑事案件的罪犯，而是來幫助民眾最需要的，而且因為他就是弱勢，很多社會弱勢可能是借錢，可能是卡債，對不對？所以你們最高的案類，18%都是在協助民眾還債這一類，我的資訊正確嗎？"],["莊董事長秋桃：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：那現在法扶受到這樣……我給您一點點時間好不好？給您30秒，好好對社會正向地訴求，不要污名化法扶！"],["莊董事長秋桃：當然，對法扶的誤解我們多年來一直在澄清，我們也希望呼籲各界能夠支持法扶，這是我們司法裡面在扶助人民的一股很安定的力量。我們有22個分會、四千多名法扶律師在幫全民做各種法律服務，絕對不是只為特定、限定是加害人或是被害人，而是只要他是生活弱勢、經濟弱勢或是其他有需要法律適當扶助的，我們都一起包含在內。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是很重要的觀念，我覺得以我們的法治教育來講，這一年來立委最需要受法治教育了。","其實法扶是在程序正義上來幫忙，所以程序正義上是一視同仁的，法扶不會成為法院之上的法院，法扶不會先去判定陳請協助的人是加害人或被害人，因為不論法律上的加害、被害，都是要透過司法的偵查及審判才能夠斷定，這是基於無罪推定原則。"],["莊董事長秋桃：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以辛苦你們了，我們持續做對的事。今天也有一個案子的解凍是法扶被凍結了，翁曉玲委員凍結了1,000萬，我希望能夠替你們伸張正義，謝謝，您請回。"],["莊董事長秋桃：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：跟騷法上路3週年，回到今天專報的主題，其實我當初也是一路催生的立委之一。3年了，我們希望好好地檢視，我們先用數字來看，跟騷法從2022年上路到現在，各警察機關受理的案件有8,488件，家暴類的案件占38%，一般跟騷案件占了62%左右；而以2024年（去年）一整年來看，跟騷受（處）理案件有2,806件，當中最有意義的是警方、警政部門核發書面告誡的比率其實很高，占了67%，而法院核發跟騷保護令的比率也很高，占了67%。我認為很有意義的是，經由檢方核發書面告誡仍再犯跟騷的比率低於10%，而且經由法院核發跟騷的保護令之後再持續加害、持續跟騷的比率更低於5%，換言之，這達到了我們當初立法及制度的有效因應，兩位是不是都看到正面的結果？哪一位要代表說明？"],["王副秘書長梅英：同意委員所說的，其實法院的統計裡面，可能是基準不一樣，我們的數字甚至還到達了七成，就是核准率……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，法院核發的比率到達七成？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我整理的數字是67.3%。當初我們在倡議、立法的時候，都一直認為它的對象要限縮於與性及性別有關，當初我們在倡議立法的委員有很多的意見，當然我們理解，警政部門認為資源有限，應優先從高風險的案件著手，因為在立法那個時候有很多情殺、跟騷之後被殺害，所以優先從這種對象來下手，但是上路了3年以後，是不是更妥切地去……我們可不可能研議增訂成案的排除條款，更進一步刪除只侷限於性與性別的案類？為什麼這麼說呢？可能世杰次長要回應。我發現很多被跟騷的人是被黑道討債的，對不對？像這種案類很清楚，是不是就可以納入跟騷的範圍？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為這個是內政部主管的法令，所以……"],["吳委員思瑤：那你認為呢？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個要經過通盤的研議，因為上次討論的時候其實就已經有如委員剛剛所說的……"],["吳委員思瑤：那時候您還是立委，您也參與這個法律的討論。"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：請內政部的代表，好嗎？馬次長，如果繼續侷限於性與性別有關，其實真的沒有辦法幫助……我說黑道討債就是很明顯的案類，派黑道來跟騷你，造成你身心靈的壓力，甚至有進一步的暴力事件，次長，請答復。"],["馬次長士元：我跟委員報告，其實除了黑道暴力討債之外，我們還有聚眾滋擾、鄰里糾紛及記者追蹤，總共有4個樣態是跟目前的跟騷法的構成要件……"],["吳委員思瑤：然後還有狗仔隊的。"],["馬次長士元：對，這是不一樣的。有一個比較重要的考量就是，如果把性與性別的定義排除掉的話，會影響到我們很多正常的社會互動過程，對一般人來講會……"],["吳委員思瑤：我再聚焦，我說黑道討債是不是就是相對明確的？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前黑道討債主要是依照刑法跟相關的條文……"],["吳委員思瑤：我知道。我覺得這個是大哉問，當初我們在立法的時候我講過了，我今天還是希望能夠好好在3週年……因為原本上路3週年之後，你們就要檢視法律。","接下來也要請你們一併納入檢視的，就是相對人的治療性處遇計畫比照家暴案類。我講重點，家暴案類對於這些處遇計畫來講，其實有社政及衛政的協力，才能夠提出具體的處遇性計畫，也能夠有效來幫助，但是對於跟騷只是著重在警政方面的作為，對於處遇就真的沒有辦法做到，是不是有這樣的問題？還有包括聲請人要預繳費用……"],["馬次長士元：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：整個不友善的處遇性計畫。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，被害人要預繳的部分，我們跟衛福部在協調，因為它的確是一個不合理的設計。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且不低耶。"],["馬次長士元：對，這個不合理，從被害人的角度，我們都知道這個有問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：什麼時候會有答案？"],["馬次長士元：我們會儘快，因為在上個月我們已經跟衛福部的代表見過面了。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，加速，好嗎？"],["馬次長士元：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：那其他的處遇計畫，內容不夠具體……"],["馬次長士元：委員剛剛有提到，處遇性計畫如果經法院根據跟騷法第十二條第一項第三款核發保護令的話，其治療性處遇計畫是有強制力的。"],["吳委員思瑤：可是那要……就是相對困難嘛。"],["馬次長士元：對，如果是其他的法條有所謂的認知輔導或教育的話，就不是具有強制力的部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長，你可能不是這方面的專業，你是防災的專家。我建議3週年就是要好好檢視跟騷法，我提出來的幾個問題，譬如範圍的界定；處遇性計畫內容不夠具體、不夠明確，以至於過偏於警政，如何讓衛政及社政的系統能夠融入？還有剛剛你說的聲請人預繳的處遇性費用，我當然支持馬上能做的要馬上做。我希望我們未來還有機會來討論，好好把3週年上路以後的檢視計畫、檢討計畫再提出來。我還是正面地肯定，如同我剛剛在簡報第1頁show出來的，有相當高的警察、員警當初都很怕案類很多，我覺得看起來還是很好的執行成績。"],["馬次長士元：我們很努力，因為的確一定要保護這個部分的被害人。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們希望保護能夠不漏接任何一個身處被跟騷的人，減輕他們的心理壓力，好嗎？"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：希望等一下司法院及稍後國安會的預算解凍都能夠順利，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員，我們會完整檢討，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。","接下來請林淑芬委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra 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軍民的養殖百報委員 在民航的部分是比較難去限制但是在登機之後一般我們都會要求民航機的機組員要在機內做一個廣播那我們在機場也會同時做一個廣播但是如果說他用像現在的手機在機場裡面 在座艙裡面做一個拍攝的話這個是比較難去做一個防範"},{"start":217.259,"end":230.716,"text":"是那比如說像當然因為我現在沒有特別的想要去播中國抖音的影片啦那麼你們如何來判斷或判別這個到底是真的還是假的那如果是假的讓他放在網路上面"},{"start":232.418,"end":252.764,"text":"它會造成的是一種台灣民心的擾動覺得這個所謂第五縱隊或是中國的這個大軍已經壓境那如果是真的又如何來避免說它繼續的在網路上面流傳或流竄其實這個是本席其實想要追的問題之一喔那我不知道是部長還是這個參謀長可以來回覆我想就這個部分"},{"start":261.597,"end":287.784,"text":"認知作戰的這個成分高那我們因此確實如委員所講的我們應該對這樣的一個認知作戰我們要進行反制是所以我想我們確實這個征戰部門也好我們相關的這些發言的系統也好我們應該要來快速然後極力的澄清這樣"},{"start":288.604,"end":304.057,"text":"部長我會提到這個部分是比如像這些影片除了我自己搜尋到之外也會有非常多的熱心的台灣的網友他會提供給我們到我的社群平台來那麼是真是假其實我不知道"},{"start":304.437,"end":307.62,"text":"我也必須透過質詢或者是私下來做詢問那為什麼本席會特別的想說我們其實是希望能夠解決問題我提出來的建議就是過去我剛剛為什麼開場的時候提到的是有關於軍人借貸的這種金融陷阱那麼"},{"start":319.972,"end":328.881,"text":"有沒有可能國防部可以跟數位部或者是跟NCC建立一個相關的就是射軍事影像流通的這個平台然後去確認或者是說可以有一個通報的一個系統那麼讓民眾如果真的也看到了可以來做提醒跟提示那麼有沒有可能建立這樣因為他們丟給我"},{"start":344.775,"end":364.248,"text":"丟給委員希望能夠好像爆料的方式然後不論是真是假他們也不知道但是他們看到了這樣的隱憂那麼有沒有可能是建組這樣的一個平台提供民眾就像信箱一樣email一樣然後可以讓他們至少可以把這個訊息提供出來而這個訊息的判辯的過程當中可能不只是國防部包括數位部數位發展部NCC等等可以至少是我們可以來掌握的像"},{"start":373.534,"end":373.554,"text":"呃 張老師"},{"start":392.519,"end":406.644,"text":"我們本來就是行政院治安團隊的一員事實上這些東西我們每天都在進行24小時監控以外有任何的違規或滲透行為我們都互相通報及時應處這是我們既有的機制事實上一直每天都在進行"},{"start":408.049,"end":412.131,"text":"好本席的意思是說既然你們有一個機制在這裡那麼是一個行政院底下的資安團隊那麼如果當民眾發現了因為你知道往海無邊啊其實就靠你們來搜尋是不夠的那麼如果有像這種民眾熱心的網友他們搜尋到了或看到了他們要"},{"start":431.061,"end":450.149,"text":"提供資訊給我們那與其提供給立委的辦公室不如提供給行政院或相關的主責單位是不是更好那麼有沒有可能去研議就是可以適時的公佈這樣的一個可以算是接受訊息的E-mail信箱或者是一個網站"},{"start":451.089,"end":474.264,"text":"那麼這個其實是有助於其實更厲害的這個民間高手啊高手在民間可以提供更大量的相關的資訊跟情資那麼有沒有可能去建立這樣的一個所謂的當然算是個什麼爆料專線或信箱就是收羅這些訊息或資訊那麼可以讓民眾可以提供給我們相關的單位"},{"start":476.328,"end":484.921,"text":"我們每週三都有固定的這樣的會議我們針對委員的意見我們把這個在本週三我們把它提出來看我們是不是有一個研討一個方式看可不可以這樣執行"},{"start":485.916,"end":511.411,"text":"好因為時間到了當然我也希望就是這個灰色作戰的滲透其實方法是方方面面啦那包括這個國安的部分當然是國安局來做主責但是國防部警政系統包括警政署或是數位部等等我也建議其實要透過一個灰色作戰的跨部會的機制但是現在因為已經有一個國安相關的會議的話那麼至少我希望能夠設立一個這樣的一個機制跟平台讓"},{"start":513.832,"end":518.738,"text":"民間的朋友們他們發現相關的這樣的資訊的時候可以更快速的處理好嗎好 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不要緊張"},{"start":18.027,"end":21.509,"text":"請王副秘書長還有法務部 今天是政事嘛委員走"},{"start":43.193,"end":65.354,"text":"我想請問一下5月14號最高法院刑事大法庭做了一個裁定的宣告主要是針對我們的詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的第47條有關於這個減輕期刑的適用範圍那我們司法院就是最高法院刑事大法庭宣告裁定"},{"start":65.914,"end":86.325,"text":"但是看起來呢引起了兩方的大戰我們法務部顯然不以為然那我想先請問一下就說這個媒體也都有報導因為我們非常關心有關於詐欺其實我們很多的民眾非常不爽的就是第一個我們詐欺這個詐騙沒有好好抓"},{"start":90.487,"end":102.816,"text":"第二個好像抓到了之後呢也沒有好好的罰他們也沒有重罰所以今天我們的這樣的一個宣告這樣的一個簡形的一個適用範圍的宣告連法務部都很不爽那我想請問一下這是5月14號到目前為止"},{"start":113.084,"end":128.895,"text":"包含這個法務部跟司法院針對這件事情有沒有補救或者是法務部提出說要做修法這個部分我想請問一下是不是先請司法院先來說然後再請法務部來說"},{"start":131.055,"end":148.881,"text":"那個報告委員吼因為有關於那個大法庭的這個裁定就是因為就是這個法律通過之後呢有關於這個所謂的就是繳交犯罪所得這個檢刑要件到底是怎麼解釋是這個現在抓到了這個特定的這個被告他自己"},{"start":149.301,"end":177.786,"text":"我了解 對 就是因為法務部現在不爽這個宣告就是認為這個對於他的範圍太過的限縮只是以他他自己自白我有多少犯罪所得然後他就可以獲得減刑我想這個也是我剛才講民眾非常關心的不爽的不滿的就是第一個詐欺犯沒有好好抓抓了以後也沒有重罰然後民眾的"},{"start":179.206,"end":198.556,"text":"這個被詐欺的所得也都拿不回來我們這一陣子不管母親節或端午節我每一次的活動每一天都有人跟我反應這個事情大家其實民怨非常非常深所以我想請問一下這個宣告合理嗎還是說你們會再採取法務部的意見來做調整"},{"start":200.287,"end":228.105,"text":"那個 跟委員報告齁因為最高法院大法庭所做的裁定呢這完全是一個審判職權的一個形式所以我們司法行政是尊重的齁那就是如果法務部他們要修法就是把這個法律的那個文藝就是定得更清楚那這個部分司法院會尊重的好 所以這唯一的現在唯一的救濟的方式只有像法務部所說的唯一只能用修法的方式嗎"},{"start":229.353,"end":255.715,"text":"跟委員報告這一個部分我們先說明在大法庭延遲辯論的時候事實上我們的最高檢在延遲辯論的時候堅定的表達說應該要關於這個條文在法案條例47條應該要參照立法理由所述主要的目的是為了要填補犯罪被害人所受損害來做解釋那很無奈這個最高法院大法庭並沒有採取這樣的一個見解"},{"start":256.636,"end":272.199,"text":"所以現在目前會有最快的速度來提出相關的法條的文字的修法讓文藝更明確來反映在立法旅遊的目的上面所以現在看起來唯有修法意圖囉"},{"start":273.8,"end":294.812,"text":"因為這個法律解釋的權責還是在這個中省的法院也是最高法院在大法庭的裁定事實上確實會發生解釋上的拘束力那麼既然大法庭已經做除非大法庭另外再重新做出不同意見的解釋我覺得這件事情是不是也反映出我們的法院是不是跟人民離得太遠"},{"start":295.692,"end":311.984,"text":"如果之前不管是立法院的通過的這個條例或者法務部所認定的那麼跟我們司法院大法庭這個最高法院的大法庭所做出來宣告離得這麼遠最後我們又要用修法的方式來加以彌補"},{"start":314.005,"end":343.245,"text":"這是不是就是我們真的覺得在司法上我們有些人是覺得政治干預司法好這個我倒是覺得這跟政治無關但是這也是讓人民對於司法沒有任何信心的主要的原因嘛好大家都認為說這個詐欺就是詐騙我們要嚴打嚴罰結果我們做出來的這個判就是做出來的判決還是有利於加害人而不是有利於被害人"},{"start":344.406,"end":347.312,"text":"是不是我們都是 我們司法上是不是都是有這樣的問題啊我們 鳳飛書長可以回答我嗎"},{"start":353.376,"end":380.434,"text":"那個報告委員我想那個大法庭他們會有這樣子的一個那個做出一個這樣子的那個解釋他們是有他們那個法理的那個根據的那在那個大法庭的裁定理由裡面也都有那個交代我要講的就是說在詐騙這件事情已經到了人神共憤了民怨沸騰的狀況之下然後我們還是可以關在冷氣房裡面做出我們自己的判決同樣的我也請教我們的這個次長"},{"start":383.496,"end":387.258,"text":"我們最近大家認為說司法到底能不能信任最近你們有一位檢察官升官就是林俊炎這當然這位林俊炎檢察官之前我也不認識他"},{"start":398.863,"end":412.353,"text":"那主要是 他是偵辦柯文哲的案件所以呢 突然聲名大噪果不其然呢 他也就升官了我想請問一下 在最近這一兩年我們檢察官系統裡面升官怎麼都是辦這些政治案件 辦到政治正確"},{"start":422.901,"end":429.408,"text":"然後通通可以升官之前前有我們的法務部長鄭明謙因為他辦了林兹廟然後立刻官運亨通然後接下來辦高雄安的幾個檢察官辦完之後通通升官"},{"start":442.222,"end":465.048,"text":"那現在又有林俊炎也是辦了柯文哲的案子也立刻升官接下來朱家榮一樣的他辦吳思瑤吳沛毅立委罷免聯署的檢察官也立刻被推薦然後在升官的名單上同樣的郭劍玉也是來辦柯文哲的案子通通升官所以"},{"start":468.806,"end":493.909,"text":"政策正確是不是檢察官升官的這樣講是非常不公平的這個表明檢察官他是申請轉任法官這也不能說是升官那其他的不是升官嗎其他的事實上升主任檢察官目前本部有相當完整的程序不但要經過檢察官的票選而且還要有檢審會的機制來把關並不是單純由行政官員來占讀怎麼都那麼巧呢"},{"start":494.389,"end":500.57,"text":"只要辦到政治正確的案件然後就那麼容易升官呢所以我要特別講喔在在司法裡面不管是政治案件或詐欺案件司法都應該成為維護人民正義的最後一道防線我剛才講的案例就是這個當然是你們法務部跟這個我們這個司法院之間這個宣告"},{"start":523.214,"end":527.437,"text":"的之間有漢格當然這個部分我是支持法務部的也許你們在第一線辦案然後一個一個宣告就讓你們真的就沒有辦法好好的研辦那同樣的法務部現在的檢察官我們也好多次的來做質詢如果說今天林俊仁法官"},{"start":544.33,"end":562.193,"text":"當然他辦的是柯文哲金華城的案件但是他現在所透露出的過程裡面包含他跑到醫院裡面然後要求關掉錄音錄影然後做詢問這個根本是不被容許的嘛"},{"start":562.774,"end":567.138,"text":"對不對 這樣子的一個辦案手法這樣一個 我現在還不講他把所有這些辦案的訊息通通透露給淨檢這個淨檢是你們部長所認證的你們的另外一個單位淨檢然後在他的辦案過程裡面可以到了醫院裡面把錄音錄影全部關掉然後來做詢問"},{"start":588.577,"end":616.348,"text":"這樣可以嗎這樣應該被懲罰吧怎麼還會被升官這是你要告訴所有的檢察官都可以這樣辦案嗎剛才所以講說法庭上要不要直播剛才省發會委員講到的一些可能有直播的一些的負面的作用其實我認為應該被檢討但是問題是大家非常擔心而且非常痛恨的司法辦案不能夠黑箱同不同意"},{"start":617.108,"end":633.571,"text":"就是不能黑箱嘛我想司法方案沒有黑箱的問題那請問我就講一件事你詢問你詢問一個被告然後關掉錄音錄影請問一下是不是黑箱這樣的辦案手法可以被鼓勵嗎你所說的事情被告辯護人都有全程在場"},{"start":635.394,"end":649.863,"text":"問 你可以關掉錄音錄影嗎 可不可以關掉錄音錄影你講 你講了以後這個都做記錄 就說你今天詢問檢察官詢問被告 然後說要讓他咬出另外一個被告但是我把錄音錄影全部關掉 你覺得可以嗎 來"},{"start":651.244,"end":666.286,"text":"市長說那一個事件北檢已經有新聞稿說明過了他並不是一個詢問而是依照羈押法去做的視察那最後呢也在他發文有沒有講是去詢問啊然後也有說明他發文有沒有去做是詢問啊他跟"},{"start":666.907,"end":693.381,"text":"跟他跟醫院的發文就是去詢問啊所以也就是說法務部可以包庇可以縱容可以容忍檢察官這樣的黑箱辦案然後還可以讓他升官這是要做什麼樣的不是指案事這是民事所以我要講就是說如果我們今天辦案不管是詐欺辦案不管是這個政治性的辦案我覺得最不能容忍的就是黑箱辦案"},{"start":694.741,"end":705.809,"text":"同不同意所以我要講說為什麼大家通通都希望你們能夠公開啊尤其你們不能夠去鼓勵甚至讓這樣的檢察官去升官"},{"start":706.812,"end":725.186,"text":"全民沒有辦法信任今天如果柯文哲可以這樣明天如果對待你黃士傑你可以接受嗎對待我王宏偉我也不能接受啊檢察官怎麼可以就關掉錄音錄影然後只為了要說抓住黃士傑你只要咬住黃士傑我把你錄音錄影全部關掉可以這樣嗎這叫個案喔"},{"start":729.85,"end":750.546,"text":"蛤 你給他三關不就要通案了嗎你不是告訴全部的檢察官說你們都可以這樣幹嗎所以我要講的是我們一直支持檢察官在第一線辦案但是如果檢察官用不正當的黑箱辦案絕對不能容許 更是"},{"start":751.286,"end":765.373,"text":"更可離譜的是竟然還可以讓他升官你們法部看這麼多的案例真的政治正確你們真的要讓檢察官都這樣幹法嗎如果檢察官如此的當場化對我們的司法絕對只是傷害好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時26分）謝謝主席。主席，其實剛才沈發惠委員講的我有仔細聽，或許我們也可以開一個公聽會再做討論。","那先請司法院的副秘書長。"],["主席：請王副秘書長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有法務部，今天是政次嘛！"],["主席：黃次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長、次長早安。5月14號最高法院刑事大法庭做了一個裁定的宣告，主要是針對詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條有關於減輕其刑的適用範圍。最高法院刑事大法庭宣告裁定，但是看起來引起了兩方大戰，法務部顯然不以為然。這個媒體也都有報導，因為我們非常關心，有關於詐欺，其實很多民眾非常不爽的就是，第一個，我們對詐騙沒有好好抓；第二個，好像抓到了之後也沒有好好罰他們、也沒有重罰。所以今天這樣的一個減刑適用範圍的宣告，連法務部都很不爽。","這是在5月14號，到目前為止，包含法務部跟司法院，針對這件事情有沒有補救，或者是法務部提出要修法？這個部分我想請問一下，是不是先請司法院先說，然後再請法務部說。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為有關於大法庭的這個裁定，就是法律通過之後，有關於所謂繳交犯罪所得的這一個減刑要件到底怎麼解釋，是現在抓到的這個特定的被告他自己……"],["王委員鴻薇：我了解，因為法務部現在不爽這個宣告，就是認為對其範圍太過限縮。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是……"],["王委員鴻薇：只是以他自己自白有多少犯罪所得，然後他就可以獲得減刑，這也是我剛才所講民眾非常關心的，很不爽、不滿的就是，第一個，詐欺犯沒有好好抓，抓了以後也沒有重罰，然後民眾被詐欺的所得也都拿不回來。這一陣子不管是母親節或端午節，我每一次的活動、每一天都有人跟我反映這個事情，其實民怨非常非常深。所以我想請問一下，這個宣告合理嗎？還是你們會再採取法務部的意見來做調整？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，因為最高法院大法庭所做的裁定，這完全是審判職權的行使，所以我們司法行政是尊重的。如果法務部他們要修法，就是把這個法律的文意訂得更清楚，這部分司法院會尊重的。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以現在唯一的救濟方式，只有像法務部所說的，唯一的是只能用修法的方式嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，這一個部分我們先說明，在大法庭言詞辯論的時候，事實上我們最高檢在言詞辯論時堅定地表達，關於詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條，應該參照立法理由所述，主要目的是為了填補犯罪被害人所受損害來做解釋。那很無奈，最高法院大法庭並沒有採取這樣的一個見解，所以法務部目前會……"],["王委員鴻薇：現在木已成舟？"],["黃次長世杰：對，會用最快速度提出相關的法條文字的修法，讓文意更明確來反映在立法理由之目的上面。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在看起來唯有修法一途，是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：是，因為法律解釋的權責還是在終審的法院，也就是最高法院，大法庭的裁定事實上確實會發生解釋上的拘束力。既然大法庭已經做……除非大法庭另外再重新做出不同意見的解釋，不然的話我們就要修法。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得這件事情是不是也反映出，我們的法院是不是跟人民離得太遠？之前不管是立法院通過的條例，或者法務部所認定的，跟司法院、最高法院的大法庭所作出的宣告離得這麼遠，最後我們又要用修法的方式加以彌補，在司法上，我們有些是覺得政治干預司法。我倒是覺得這跟政治無關，但這也是讓人民對於司法沒有任何信心的主要原因。大家都認為詐騙我們要嚴打、嚴罰，結果作出的判決還是有利於加害人，而不是有利於被害人，我們司法上是不是都有這樣的問題，副秘書長可以回答我嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我想大法庭會作出一個這樣子的解釋，他們是有法理根據的，在大法庭的裁定理由裡面也都有交代。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的就是，詐騙這件事情已經到了人神共憤、民怨沸騰的狀況之下，然後我們還是可以關在冷氣房房裡面作出自己的判決。","同樣地我也請教次長，大家認為司法到底能不能信任，最近你們有一位檢察官升官，就是林俊言，當然之前我也不認識這位林俊言檢察官，主要是他偵辦柯文哲的案件，所以突然聲名大噪，果不其然他也就升官了。我想請問，在最近這一、兩年，我們檢察官系統裡面升官的怎麼都是辦這些政治案件、辦到政治正確，然後通通可以升官？前有法務部部長鄭銘謙，因為他辦了林姿妙，立刻官運亨通；接下來辦高虹安的幾個檢察官，辦完之後通通升官；現在又有林俊言，辦了柯文哲的案子也立刻升官；接下來朱家蓉也一樣，他是辦吳思瑤、吳沛憶立委罷免連署案的檢察官，也立刻被推薦，在升官的名單上；同樣地，郭建鈺也是辦柯文哲的案子，通通升官！"],["黃次長世杰：我想委員，你這個表裡面……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以政治正確是不是檢察官升官的……"],["黃次長世杰：我想委員這樣講是非常不公平的，這個表裡面，譬如像郭建鈺檢察官，他是申請轉任法官，這也不能說是升官，也並非本部的……"],["王委員鴻薇：那其他的不是升官嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：其他的，事實上升主任檢察官目前本部有相當完整的程序，不但要經過檢察官的票選，而且還要有檢審會的機制來把關，並不是單純由行政官員單獨來決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼都那麼巧？只要辦到政治正確的案件……"],["黃次長世杰：事實上我們每次升任的人數都相當多……"],["王委員鴻薇：然後就那麼容易升官？"],["黃次長世杰：而且他們也不是只有辦這個案子……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要特別講……"],["黃次長世杰：應該是長期在辦案的績效受到基層檢察官肯定，才有可能在票選裡面脫穎而出。"],["王委員鴻薇：在司法裡面，不管是政治案件或詐欺案件，司法都應該成為維護人民正義的最後一道防線。我剛才講的案例，這是法務部跟司法院的宣告之間有扞格，但這個部分我是支持法務部的，也許你們在第一線辦案，然後一個宣告就讓你們真的沒有辦法好好地嚴辦。同樣的，對於法務部現在的檢察官，我們也好多次進行質詢，今天林俊言法官辦的是柯文哲京華城的案件，但是現在所透露出的過程，包含他跑到醫院裡面，要求關掉錄音、錄影，然後做訊問，這個根本是不被容許的嘛！對不對？這樣……"],["黃次長世杰：相關的事情都有發布新聞稿澄清過了……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣子的一個辦案手法！我……"],["黃次長世杰：臺北地檢署已經澄清過了。"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在還不講他把所有的辦案訊息統統透露給「鏡檢」，這個鏡檢是你們部長所認證的，你們的另外一個單位鏡檢。在他的辦案過程裡面可以到了醫院裡面，把錄音、錄影全部關掉，然後來做訊問，這樣可以嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們相關的事情都有澄清過了。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣應該被懲罰吧！怎麼還會升官？這是要告訴所有的檢察官都可以這樣辦案嗎？有關法庭上要不要直播，剛才沈發惠委員講到一些直播可能有的負面的作用，其實我認為應該被檢討，但問題是，大家非常擔心而且非常痛恨的是，司法辦案不能夠黑箱，同不同意？就是不能黑箱嘛！"],["黃次長世杰：我想司法辦案沒有黑箱的問題，尤其審判都是公開審理。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我就講一件事，訊問一個被告，然後關掉錄音、錄影，請問一下是不是黑箱？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣的辦案手法可以被鼓勵嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：委員所說的事情，被告辯護人都有全程在場。"],["王委員鴻薇：可以關掉錄音、錄影嗎？可不可以關掉錄音、錄影？你講啊！你講了以後，這個都做記錄！就是說，檢察官訊問被告，說要讓他咬出另外一個被告，但是把錄音、錄影全部關掉，你覺得可以嗎？來，次長說！"],["黃次長世杰：委員，剛剛那一個事件，北檢已經有用新聞稿說明過了，它並不是一個訊問，而是依照羈押法去做的視察，最後也在辯護人的要求底下……"],["王委員鴻薇：他發文有沒有講是去訊問啊？"],["黃次長世杰：最後也有說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：他跟醫院的發文就是去訊問啊！所以……"],["黃次長世杰：並不是這樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以也就是說，法務部可以包庇、可以縱容、可以容忍檢察官這樣黑箱辦案，然後還可以讓他升官！這是要做什麼樣的……這不只是暗示，它就是明示！所以……"],["黃次長世杰：關於檢察官的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講的是，如果今天辦案，不管是詐欺辦案或是政治性的辦案，我覺得最不能容忍的就是黑箱辦案，同不同意？"],["黃次長世杰：我……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講說，為什麼大家統統都希望你們能夠公開啊！尤其你們不能去鼓勵、甚至讓這樣的檢察官升官！全民沒有辦法信任……"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我想這樣講對於一些檢察官並不公平。"],["王委員鴻薇：今天對柯文哲可以這樣，明天如果這樣對待你黃世杰，你可以接受嗎？對待我王鴻薇，我也不能接受啊！檢察官怎麼可以關掉錄音、錄影，只為了抓出黃世杰，你只要咬出黃世杰，我把你錄音、錄影全部關掉，可以這樣嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，這些都是個案的臆測之詞啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：這叫個案哦？"],["黃次長世杰：這當然是個案啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：你給他升官，不就是通案了嗎？你不是告訴全部的檢察官說你們都可以這樣幹嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：委員說的是偵查的過程，現在已經起訴、在法院中，所有這些情事都會在訴訟程序中提出來，由法院去判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是，我們一直支持檢察官在第一線辦案，但是如果檢察官用不正當的黑箱辦案，絕對不能容許！更離譜的是，竟然還可以讓他升官！你們法務部辦這麼多的案例，真的政治正確耶！你們真的要讓檢察官都這樣幹法嗎？如果檢察官如此東廠化，對我們的司法絕對是傷害。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。黃次長剛剛的聲音如果再高一點點，那就旗鼓相當、精彩了！","接下來請吳思瑤委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}},{"id":"161911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a920a28acba8216ffee4a52ea614c3ed7d00acb659e6b7ab01c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:22:57 - 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我們有請顧部長有請部長"},{"start":11.497,"end":38.117,"text":"是學長好部長好我也是接續下來要問這個我們在招收國軍的普遍狀況那呢剛才這個王定宇委員也講到了在國防大學的管理學院裡面呢預計收140人那現在有158人出現了難得的超額那一年級裡面呢男生是68人女生是90人那等於說呢女生是比男生多了四成那這也是創下了空前的紀錄所以您說的沒有錯"},{"start":38.817,"end":67.728,"text":"就是說呢我們招生的狀況整體來說是比較多的但是呢女性的部分呢也多了百分之四十那呢這個很大的很多人都會問說那請問我接著問說那請問男生招生就我們不講女生女性來從軍很好女生的表現一定也很好但是我想要問一下為什麼男性那現在在報名軍少那會相對於女性少這麼多呢你們所了解的原因是什麼"},{"start":68.487,"end":84.701,"text":"我們了解原因就是說我們採成績的一個排序所以男生成績比較不好折優來錄取那為什麼來參加報考的男生成績會比較不好所以折優之後是女性比較多呢"},{"start":86.143,"end":112.245,"text":"是說成績比較好的男生不想要來報考這個報告委員你們要不要去了解一下為什麼他會有失衡的這個情形報告委員我台大法律系畢業就我了解現在台大法律系B那個遭受的名額結果那個如果你去看的話女生的數也比男生多對啊我知道啊那你要我說怎樣呢你要說"},{"start":113.703,"end":129.993,"text":"我覺得男女現在是平等的我們現在對男女的從軍我們也都鼓勵的我們也不認為女性的表現會在畢業之後會比男性來得差而且表現有時候甚至比男性來得好"},{"start":130.693,"end":155.962,"text":"好我們看下一張您剛說軍哨招收成績都是超額的三軍官預計是786人現有440人招募率56%然後沒有男女之分可是你可以看到我們現在畫的這個圖上面跟當初簡章規劃的這個數字規劃的數字在軍費身上面是有男性跟女性的我們陸軍官校海軍官校空軍官校理工學院管理學院跟征戰學院"},{"start":157.142,"end":181.174,"text":"其實都是在招收的時候有男女生的差別啊那我們在法律系你剛剛講的他考台大法律系裡面他上面會告訴你說我們預計招收男性多少女性多少他沒有啊所以這兩者之間是不能做比較的呀我們軍費生的招收元額軸表上面有沒有寫女性跟男性的分別有嗎跟委員報告我們沒有去區分男生跟女生"},{"start":187.148,"end":215.941,"text":"你們沒有去區分男生跟女生那招生元額總表為什麼要分我們只是在區隔男性多少女性多少對就是說現在的現在的所有大一到大四的所有男生跟女生有多少人對啊那你們不是說都不需要區分嗎那為什麼我們在招生元額總表我講的不是現在是你們招生元額總表上面就針對一般生飛行生上面你們就有分男性跟女性"},{"start":216.141,"end":232.432,"text":"委員報告就是說我們三軍官校目前就是說還是女生報名比較少但是罹管症的部分因為他們畢業大部分在後勤或者是心腹或者是醫院的這個部分那這樣子男女生我們就不會有任何區別"},{"start":233.552,"end":261.189,"text":"我沒有說要有區別我從頭到尾您不要誤解我的意思我沒有說要有區別我也鼓勵女性從軍報考軍校那能夠有好的成績我也覺得很棒我只是說剛剛講的這個比喻是不倫不類因為我們在招生元額總表上面就有分成是男性跟女性那現在大家問的問題是說為什麼女性呢看起來現在是好 您說因為成績排序比較前面所以超額招收的時候它會被列在比較前面"},{"start":261.969,"end":290.38,"text":"但實際上面我們看到的狀況就是在畢業以後那他們可能比較多的人他像您說的去了心腹單位或者後勤單位那請問我們戰鬥部隊或者是我們憲兵比方說先前的2110的邊縣比等到他們從這個學校畢業之後如果他從事志願役那在這個男性的他們可能在前線部隊人數是比較多那這個時候會不會造成軍方我們整體的失衡的情況這是你們要去再多加討論的"},{"start":292.02,"end":309.19,"text":"我想兩點第一點招生緣和總表區分男女比例只是一個現況的呈現不代表任何其他的任何意涵這是第一點第二點我到基層部隊裡面去看的時候我看到很多女性服役的表現"},{"start":310.211,"end":328.528,"text":"都不會比男生來的差我完全認同所以我只是要強調這一點我剛剛也講過跟你一模一樣的話對我來講我看不出有任何其他除了呈現一個說男生跟女生是多少之外有其他的任何意義存在啊"},{"start":328.973,"end":353.016,"text":"OK好那你們就覺得這樣子的發展對於接下來繼續有這樣子的一個情況的話你們也是樂於看待的樂觀其成我們對於女性的軍事觀以後納入後備的一個叫招這樣我理解了你們認為現在這個狀況可以繼續往這個方向發展嗎那我只是要了解一下你們想法是什麼那另外我們想要問一下這個海昆號的這個進度"},{"start":354.457,"end":361.158,"text":"那因為我們可以看一下在2024年的時候11月25號的新聞這還刊載在青年日報上面呢那就有媒體曾經報導過這個我們往下一張看圖片媒體當時報導說海昆號的測試HAT不如預期那4月還是有困難海軍司令部還回應說呢現在已經這個以嚴謹的態度控管預計案節點你們的計劃節點是4月1期曾進行海上測試SAT"},{"start":383.442,"end":387.004,"text":"在5月6號的時候呢說海軍已經進到最後的準備階段了兩週前呢說是大概520的時候那現在呢5月23號的時候呢說這個要等到海昆號達到安全條件以後才會進行海上測試沒有時間表那請問這個不斷延期的原因是什麼"},{"start":404.795,"end":413.967,"text":"就我們從青年日報上面我們真的發新聞稿2025年的2月5號一路到這個4月5月6月這個6月還沒到5月到現在已經多次的針對海昆號的部分那有討論到時間點"},{"start":420.615,"end":436.488,"text":"然後節點你們都說在節點上可是你看喔先前在2月25號的時候的按計劃節點是在4月1期程執行海上測試但到現在突然都沒有時間表了我想要問一下不斷延期的原因到底在哪裡"},{"start":437.449,"end":453.643,"text":"我想在最近這個海軍有關於海上測試說要在4月設定一個實際出來的時程這件事情我的理解並沒有這樣講過我們還是以我的了解是海軍是說我們已經"},{"start":462.881,"end":467.602,"text":"要盡力的努力完成最後配件的階段應該是這樣子吧2月25號不對2025年2月25號的青年日報上面寫的是青年日報我可不是引用一般的新聞媒體報導寫說海軍說海昆號一騎乘於4月執行海上測試第二點叫做呢現在呢這個"},{"start":488.908,"end":508.914,"text":"現在沒有電壓不穩的問題續按計劃節點於4月1期程執行海上測試這個是你們公開的在這個地方我可以給大家看所以部長您剛剛說的是不對的或許你沒有看過當時2月25號所發的新聞稿所以按照節點的部分已經有所拖延我想委員需要給我們一點時間回答我請喊來"},{"start":510.783,"end":524.975,"text":"海軍參謀長報告在去年的整個階段來講我們就是這個整個海昆軍艦的海上測試我們就是從今年的4月份到9月份是它的一個海上測試的期程所以從4月份開始"},{"start":526.176,"end":531.843,"text":"就是我們整個這個階段四月份到九月份都是海上測試的期程那因為要達到所有的裝備還有一些安全條件的設置我們都不需要都在符合安全的當然這個我也非常認同"},{"start":541.314,"end":563.389,"text":"海上測試所以特別要跟委員講說其實我們並沒有如這個媒體上面講我們有預定要一個特定的一個時間來做一個我的意思是說你們的計劃節點有延遲因為上一次我來問的時候你們告訴我說都沒有延遲都是按照計劃節點如期進行可是我現在拿的是2025年2月25號你們在第二點上面寫的你們講說你們的計劃節點是在今年的4月份做海上測試"},{"start":571.394,"end":578.596,"text":"那所以我想問我們的海上測試按照計畫節點原定的計畫節點是否有延後的情況"},{"start":581.499,"end":593.624,"text":"我想跟委員報告就我光部的立場我們來要求海軍就是一切以安全這我都知道剛才他也講過了我問的是我們的計畫因為我們要做一個船我們總是有分計畫節點你們每次我問的時候你們都講說我現在目前按照計畫節點要怎麼做怎麼做怎麼做"},{"start":602.307,"end":619.642,"text":"那如果這個計劃節點沒有按照時程的話那它就是延後了所以我想要問說有沒有計劃節點原定的狀況之下因為安全的考量因為希望更完善的考量而延後按照原本的規劃而延後的情形發生就這麼簡單的一個問題而已"},{"start":622.483,"end":650.454,"text":"對 剛剛參謀長已經講過了4月到9月是我們的一個海上測試的一個整個的一個期程那但是但是要在安全的測試情況之下才能夠進行海測那這個就是我們的一個最高的一個原則那我希望海軍能夠盡快的讓這一個HAT的相關的這些所需要的調教等等儘速能夠完成那以便能夠"},{"start":650.794,"end":665.261,"text":"那我最後一個問題問因為呢在二月的時候我們的節點在海上測試的部分是到四月嘛對不對那現在目前呢都還沒有辦法完成博港測試那等於說按照原本的計畫的節點其實我這邊我自己講啦就是往後延了"},{"start":668.502,"end":670.663,"text":"我們現在還是會進行所必須要的海上測試的一些期程跟項目"},{"start":693.904,"end":707.499,"text":"當然那我想要問的是說你們有沒有預期好心理準備原定的11月交件會再往後延期了我們海上的測試的相關的期程我們會根據我們進入了海上測試階段會來做這個調整那麼這個項目的部分我們也不會打折"},{"start":713.666,"end":739.685,"text":"那最後一個問題就是說你們節點既然已經被打亂了那這幾個節點就是海上測試博港測試的節點海上測試的節點跟交建的這個整個幾個節點那要重新調整嗎如果要重新調整的話會告訴我們國防外交委員會或是社會大眾嗎我們進入海上測試之後如果委員有能夠要了解的話我想我們會以機密的方式來跟委員所說明好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時22分）謝謝主席。有請顧部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。我接續也是要問國軍招收的普遍狀況。剛才王定宇委員講到國防大學管理學院原本預計收140人，現在有158人報名，出現了難得的超額情況。在一年級裡，男生68人，女生90人，等於女生比男生多了四成，創下空前紀錄。部長說的沒有錯，今年招生的狀況整體來說人數是比較多的，但女生部分卻多了40%。我接著就要講，我們先不講女生，因為女生從軍很好，女生的表現一定也很好，但我想要問一下，為什麼現在男性相對於女性，在報名軍校上人數會少這麼多？你們所了解的原因是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們了解的原因是因為我們採成績的排序……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以男生成績比較不好？"],["顧部長立雄：擇優錄取。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼報考的男生成績會比較不好，以致擇優之後女生會比較多？還是說成績比較好的男生不想來報考？"],["顧部長立雄：報告委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有沒有去了解一下，為什麼會有這樣失衡的情形？"],["顧部長立雄：報告委員，我臺大法律系畢業，就我了解，現在臺大法律系招生的結果，如果你去看的話，女生的人數也比男生多。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我知道。"],["顧部長立雄：所以你要我說什麼？現在男女是平等的，我們對男女從軍……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，男女是平等的……"],["顧部長立雄：都是鼓勵的，我們也不認為女性在畢業之後表現會比男性差，而且有時候甚至表現得比男性來得好。"],["徐委員巧芯：您剛剛說軍校招收超額，三軍官校預計招收786人，現有440人，招募率56%，沒有男女之分。部長可以看到統計圖上當初簡章所規劃的數字，其中軍費生是有男女性的不同，且陸軍官校、海軍官校、空軍官校、理工學院、管理學院跟政戰學院其實在招收時都有男女生的差別。至於部長剛剛講到法律系，在考臺大法律系時會告訴你預計招收男性多少、女性多少嗎？沒有啊！所以這兩者是不能比較的！請問軍費生的招收員額總表上有沒有寫女性跟男性的分別？"],["顧部長立雄：這個是……"],["徐委員巧芯：有嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們沒有區分男生跟女生。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有區分男生跟女生，那招生員額總表為什麼要分？"],["顧部長立雄：我們只是區隔男性多少、女性多少。"],["劉次長沛智：對，就是現在大一到大四的所有男生跟女生有多少人。"],["徐委員巧芯：對阿！你們不是說不需要區分，那為什麼在招生員額總表……我講的不是現在，是你們在招生員額總表上就針對一般生、飛行生有分男性跟女性？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，目前女生報名三軍官校的還是比較少，但在理、管、政部分，因為畢業後大部分在後勤或是心輔、醫院，如此我們就不會區分男女生。"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有說要有區別，您不要誤解我的意思！我從頭到尾沒有說要有區別，我也鼓勵女性從軍報考軍校，而能夠有好成績我也覺得很棒。我只是說剛剛部長講的比喻不倫不類，因為在招生員額總表上就有分成男性、女性。現在大家問的問題是：為什麼女性看起來現在……好，您說因為成績排序比較前面，所以超額招收時會被列在比較前面，但實際上我們看到的狀況是，畢業以後他們可能有比較多的人，如次長所說的去了心輔或後勤單位，而戰鬥部隊或憲兵，比方先前211營有編現比問題，等到他們從學校畢業之後下部隊，若再加上志願役，可能男性在前線部隊的人數會比較多，這時候會不會造成軍中人數失衡？這是你們要再多加討論的。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，兩點說明：第一點，招生員額總表區分男女比例只是現況的呈現，不代表其他的任何意涵，這是第一點；第二點，我到基層部隊去看，其實很多女性服役的表現都不會比男生來得差……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，我完全認同，我完全認同！"],["顧部長立雄：我只是要強調這點……"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛也講過跟你一模一樣的話……"],["顧部長立雄：所以招生員額總表對我來講，我看不出有任何其他……除了呈現男女生是多少之外，有其他的任何意義存在！"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，你們覺得這樣的發展，即使接下來繼續有這樣的情況你們也是樂觀看待，樂觀其成？"],["顧部長立雄：對，對於女性軍士官退伍後納入後備教召，我們現在已經在進行修法……"],["徐委員巧芯：這樣我理解了，你們認為現在這狀況可以繼續發展，而我只是想了解一下你們的想法是什麼。","另外我想問一下海鯤號的進度。請看一下2024年11月25號刊載在青年日報上的新聞。當時有媒體曾經報導海鯤號的測試HAT不如預期，4月還是有困難。海軍司令部回應說現在以嚴謹的態度控管，預計按節點……你們的計畫節點是4月依期程進行海上測試SAT。在5月6號時說，海軍已經進到最後的準備階段；兩週前、大概是520、5月23號時說，要等海鯤號達到安全條件以後才會進行海上測試，沒有時間表。請問不斷延期的原因是什麼？從青年日報發新聞稿開始，2025年2月5號一路到4月、5月到現在，已經多次針對海鯤號的部分討論到時間點、節點，你們都說在節點上，可是你看，先前在2月25號的時候按計畫節點是在4月依期程執行海上測試，但到現在突然都沒有時間表了，我想要問一下，不斷延期的原因到底在哪裡？"],["顧部長立雄：最近海軍有關於海上測試說要在4月設定一個實際出來的時程這件事情，我的理解並沒有這樣講過。"],["徐委員巧芯：有啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我的了解是，海軍參謀的講法是我們要盡力努力完成最後階段，應該是這樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：No、No、No，不對！2025年2月25號的青年日報上面寫的是，是青年日報喔，我可不是引用一般的新聞媒體報導，上面是寫海軍說海鯤號依期程於4月執行海上測試，第二點是現在沒有電壓不穩的問題，續按計畫節點於4月依期程執行海上測試；這個是你們公開的在這個地方，我可以給大家看。所以部長您剛剛說的是不對的，或許你沒有看過當時2月25號所發的新聞稿。所以按照節點的部分，已經有所拖延。"],["顧部長立雄：我想委員需要給我們一點時間回答，我請海軍。"],["徐委員巧芯：來！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。海軍參謀長報告，在去年的整個階段來講，整個海鯤軍艦的海上測試，我們從今年4月份到9月份是海上測試的期程，所以從4月份開始就是整個這個階段……"],["徐委員巧芯：4月份到9月份都是海上測試的期程，對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，因為要達到所有的裝備，還有一些安全條件的設置，我們都必須要在符合安全的條件之下才能夠實施海上測試。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，這個我也非常認同。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：所以要特別跟委員說，其實我們並沒有如媒體上面講的，我們有律定一個特定的時間做……"],["徐委員巧芯：我的意思是說你們的計畫節點有延遲，因為上一次我來問的時候，你們告訴我都沒有延遲、都是按照計畫節點如期進行，可是我現在拿的是2025年2月25號你們在第二點上面寫的，你們的計畫節點是在今年的4月份做海上測試。所以我想問，我們的海上測試按照原訂的計畫節點是否有延後的情況？"],["顧部長立雄：我想跟委員報告，就我國防部的立場，我們來要求海軍一切以安全為上。"],["徐委員巧芯：這我都知道，剛才他也講過了，我問的是我們的計畫，因為我們要做一個船總是有分計畫節點，每次我問的時候，你們都說目前按照計畫節點要怎麼做、怎麼做、怎麼做，如果這個計畫節點沒有按照時程的話，那它就是延後了，所以我想要問有沒有計畫節點在原訂的狀況之下，因為安全的考量、因為希望更完善的考量而延後，按照原本的規劃而有延後的情形發生？就這麼簡單的一個問題而已。"],["顧部長立雄：對，剛剛參謀長已經講過了，4月到9月是我們海上測試的整個期程。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["顧部長立雄：但是要在安全的測試情況之下才能夠進行海測，這個就是我們的最高原則。我希望海軍能夠儘快的讓HAT相關所需要的調校等等儘速能夠完成，以便能夠進行海測。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。我最後一個問題，2月的時候的節點，在海上測試的部分是到4月，對不對？目前都還沒有辦法完成泊港測試，等於按照原本計畫的節點，就我自己講就是往後延了，這樣子來說的話，本來4月或5月，就說4月好了，4月到9月要進行海上測試，11月要交艦，現在的狀況是不是就要壓縮海上測試的時間才能夠交艦？或者是交艦的時間也可能會被延後？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在還是會進行所必須要的海上測試的一些期程跟項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，我想要問的是你們有沒有已經預期好心理準備，原訂的11月交艦會再往後延期了？"],["顧部長立雄：我們海上測試的相關期程，會根據進入海上測試階段調整，項目的部分我們也不會打折。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，最後一個問題就是你們的節點既然已經被打亂了，這幾個節點：泊港測試的節點、海上測試的節點跟交艦的這幾個節點，要重新調整嗎？如果要重新調整的話，會告訴我們外交及國防委員會或是社會大眾嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們進入海上測試之後，如果委員要了解的話，我們會以機密的方式來跟委員說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，部長請回。","接下來有請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-17","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","王定宇","徐巧芯","林楚茵","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請部長請部長我們袁 袁 袁 袁 袁署長袁署長我今天三個問題請教你第一個 來這是我們的離島可能很多人不知道我們全台灣的離島的垃圾全部都運到台灣本島來處理"},{"start":40.205,"end":57.7,"text":"包括屏東的小琉球、綠島、蘭嶼包括連澎湖、金門、農莊、上場等等對不對對啦好來我先疊一下齁這個把它放大可以嗎我都放大吧那個結算齁"},{"start":73.311,"end":74.291,"text":"我們用小琉球為例它有兩個處理垃圾的委外案第一個就是垃圾轉運站營運管理這個議案"},{"start":100.845,"end":106.73,"text":"議案就是一般廢棄物轉運期監督我想所有的理事長都會這樣做啦這兩個案子 保證你看看這是34億的"},{"start":115.809,"end":135.659,"text":"你嚇死人了,你嚇到乎聾了啦不可能那麼多啦千萬百萬千萬億十億三百四十二萬三百四十二萬啦?不可能啦,抱歉啊你的招標案,你看看招標案"},{"start":139.547,"end":154.594,"text":"跟委員報告,這顯然是錯誤,屏東環保局可能在打的時候打錯我們同仁也有通知他,他現在應該是342萬,已經請他改正了你的招標是4百69萬,人家都有在看,你也這樣輪步一段,被人家笑死了另外一間,還有多少?"},{"start":172.387,"end":197.899,"text":"發委員 剛才所指的兩個案子齁 它其實是同一筆同一個...一個...所以是兩個案子還是一個案子?它是...它是...它分兩個計畫 但是是同一個案 這樣子同一個案子 兩個計畫?是所以兩個報告是一樣?欸 它...它會分別齁 它有一個轉運計畫嘛 一個管理計畫兩個還是..."},{"start":204.744,"end":210.426,"text":"對兩個的報告是一樣我看到所以這個我們在留學後我們就去實際考察我們看那個垃圾"},{"start":214.912,"end":243.899,"text":"打包之後弄到船然後就到鹽埔漁港然後車子就載出來嘛是是有的車子是就直接載車子就從小琉球然後那個車子就直接開到接駁船上面然後船就拉著走然後到東港到新衍這邊就直接開出去了是這樣嘛是是所以這是把他聽成一個慣例一個操作這樣喔"},{"start":247.883,"end":251.808,"text":"市長他們一直要求多一點的資源,你覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":254.759,"end":273.461,"text":"報告委員小琉球的要求我們會再考慮檢討不過目前小琉球的運輸費用是全國最高他甚至比金門運回來還要貴這個部分可能還要檢討一下我們看他的實際的需求"},{"start":275.063,"end":294.698,"text":"因為他的遊客真的是非常多民宿現在已經400多家了遊客很多,布朗也都去過所以這個督導是你們撥錢給屏東縣環保局,環保局去執行所以這個錢100%都是你們給的"},{"start":301.443,"end":318.873,"text":"好那這個要加強那第二個我們防管署我們在第18項第18款第4項第18款第5項黨團的這一些凍結案我就統一起來問剛剛很多委員問了很多"},{"start":322.535,"end":326.6,"text":"在垃圾不漏地的這一項到登革熱颱風現在又來了你有什麼想法跟做法"},{"start":334.731,"end":351.983,"text":"再來一些工廠的VOC等等這些有沒有什麼想法是 向委員報告其實在我們的登革熱防制上面我們在北中南從去年開始每一年分為北中南"},{"start":352.583,"end":371.522,"text":"各實施實兵演練那這些實兵演練就是大家在別的縣市如果機具由我們調度到現場不管是災害或者是這個登革熱等等之類的那這種高師演練跟現場演練北中南山區各有責任區我們做演練"},{"start":372.242,"end":400.597,"text":"那在工廠的VOC上面我們是以科技執法那在我們的年度預算裡面也有顯示在上面希望透過遠端的監控方式來做處理這個是一個科技執法的一個那所以你跟各縣市的環保局都有在監控這些瓶瓶罐罐啊颱風過後像這樣這兩天雨這樣下那些清除都有在監控嗎"},{"start":401.397,"end":426.977,"text":"是 這一個它清除完畢會跟我們回報它的數量當然我們也是有一個系統來如果哪一個縣市它有需要資源的話我們會去調度其他的資源或其他縣市來做資源清除所以如果他們做得好有評比 有獎勵 有沒有有 我們在年度的績效評比制度裡面是有這一項的"},{"start":428.883,"end":434.625,"text":"第三個問題就是我要問部長你剛剛一直在講的環境跟AI的監控你現在做的是有做到哪一些AI的"},{"start":444.582,"end":467.122,"text":"AI第一個是說我們那個對於空瓶的預測例如說現在PM2.5多少像我自己我是敏感體質啊我PM2.5我就設定20以上就會push給我啊那個呢就經過AI去算未來會到20例如說他一直提升他就會主動去推估未來多少那我就手機就會收到啊這個就保障每個人的健康"},{"start":467.793,"end":494.775,"text":"那各縣市的這些data如果是有超過預警值你們的署長啊你們的高階的人會顯示你的手機會顯示出來嗎有有我舉例例如說要是發生火災啊火災往哪裡飄那個煙往哪裡飄我們大概即時都會得到回報消防署會給我們那我們也有自己的所以這個都會提醒來預警做超前的部署"},{"start":494.975,"end":512.492,"text":"有危險值的通報對不對有有有我們自己內部都有可以看得到你看你的手機就會顯示出來對三更半夜也都有也都有對這樣的話那你剛剛另外一個講說家庭裡面也會產生PM2.5你是在說什麼"},{"start":515.377,"end":532.182,"text":"沒有啦,我們開一個GAS,開豬柴,一直砰,那個就是等於是燒天然氣嘛,其實那個時候PM2.5就會跳起來,我們有算過大概會到三四十啦,為客啦,因為差不多家裡如果你很乾淨的話,大概都是十以下,"},{"start":532.722,"end":545.15,"text":"我們家裡用的那個液態那個是滋味瓦斯一桶一桶那個是中國石油公司煉油的時候所產生的副產品那我們剛剛一直在講那瓦斯船"},{"start":549.696,"end":577.738,"text":"再來要給台灣發電用的那個是液態天然氣那個兩個來源是不同的但是它原理是類似的當然但是這是石油在蒸餾的時候在分類的時候從傘層的那一個瓦斯應該講瓦斯它裡面應該是比液態天然氣還多樣化裡面的化學物質可能會更多"},{"start":578.418,"end":599.968,"text":"我們家裡面的其實也不少我們現在會啟動研究調查啦就是說因為像其實有人說要家裡要換電磁爐會比較好啦但是也有一些國外研究說沒差是你要吃什麼例如說國外有研究肩培根PM2.5可以到2000啦所以這個其實我們一直很想要用健康的觀點來保障每個國人的健康"},{"start":601.388,"end":624.825,"text":"就是說炸豬排啊那個其實PM2.5的都在美國你看到很多用電爐啦他們都220的230齁他們都用電爐很少像我們用炸的用炸的那我們的瓦斯就是桶裝的瓦斯或天然瓦斯自來瓦斯我在想裡面因為是煉油的過程所產生的"},{"start":626.086,"end":640.832,"text":"附加物它裡面可能會比液態天然氣還多樣化化學成分會更多有沒有研究過這個包委員這個部分國內的調查我有問我同仁目前過去調查的很少很少"},{"start":641.152,"end":652.879,"text":"像我們洗熱水澡也是用瓦斯其實也會產生出來其實生活裡面的這個就是我們我們要調查的所以這個你要往這個方面研究就是說你這台車輸了你現在燒出來的東西燒不完整不完全燃燒"},{"start":657.982,"end":678.044,"text":"為什麼冬天關個窗戶洗個熱水澡就會熄人那都是這樣是不是有其他的化學物質那是一氧化碳中毒當然你說一氧化碳但是我覺得它稍微有很多稍微不完整的那些稍微不完全的那些化學物質搞不好那裡面有一二十種成分"},{"start":679.085,"end":706.337,"text":"所以這個環保署你要去研究這個啦是是 我現在我們今年會有一個重點就是健康啦 健康的市長 你可能要去做一些研究啦 好不好好 那最後一個就是我們屏東剛才 王一民講得很大聲齁這些煤 這些發電廠一直漂漂漂齁我一直從小到現在那個臨沿石化工業區齁我對它真的是很 很"},{"start":707.777,"end":710.318,"text":"就給你小的啦,真的迷茫茫,天空那裡,星農那裡,這麼多肺部的問題啦我跟那邊是絕對的關係啦,那你新達大林飄過來的那屏東本身,你說你用AI在監控,那些農業機械什麼"},{"start":730.402,"end":752.242,"text":"有的時候如果用柴油燒很多的民眾例如說操作的農民如果用柴油燒積聚的話那個對身體還是不好啦所以這個其實我們以後也要來注意啦我有發現到這一塊所以我們一起來研究看看好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時18分）好，謝謝主席。請部長及顏署長。"],["主席：請部長及顏署長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["蘇委員清泉：我今天有3個問題要請教你，第一個是有關於我們離島垃圾的問題，可能很多人不知道我們全臺灣離島的垃圾全部都運回臺灣本島來處理，包括屏東的小琉球、綠島、蘭嶼，連澎湖、金門都送回來臺灣，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！以小琉球為例，它有兩個處理垃圾的委外案，第一個叫做垃圾轉運站營運管理，另外一案就是一般廢棄物轉運及監督，我想所有的離島都差不多這樣做，這兩個案子，部長你看看，這是34億！你嚇死人！這是怎麼搞的。"],["彭部長啓明：應該是打錯了，不可能那麼多啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：百萬、千萬、億、十億，34億。"],["彭部長啓明：342萬啦！打錯啦！不好意思。"],["蘇委員清泉：你的招標案……"],["彭部長啓明：屏東環保局……"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，這個顯然是錯誤，屏東環保局可能在打的時候打錯，我們同仁也有通知他。應該是342萬，已經請他改正。"],["蘇委員清泉：你的招標案是469萬，大家都是有在看的，你們不要這樣亂搞一通，會讓人笑死。另外一件是多少？"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，剛才所指的兩個案子其實是同一筆，同一個計畫……"],["蘇委員清泉：這是兩個案子還是一個案子？"],["顏署長旭明：它分兩個計畫，但是是同一個案子。"],["蘇委員清泉：同一個案子兩個計畫？所以兩個報告是一樣的？"],["顏署長旭明：分別有一個轉運計畫和一個管理計畫。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，我看到了兩個的報告是一樣的。我們在小琉球實地考察時，看到垃圾打包弄上船運到鹽埔漁港之後，就被車子載出來了。有的車子從小琉球直接載，然後開到接駁船上面被船拉著走，到東港、新園後就直接開出去了，是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這是把它拆成一個慣例、一個操作是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：小琉球一直要求要多一點的資源，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，小琉球的要求我們會再考慮檢討，不過目前小琉球的運輸費用是全國最高，甚至比金門運回來還要貴，這個部分可能還要檢討一下，我們會看它的實際需求。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為它的遊客真的是非常多，民宿現在已經四百多家了，部長也都去過。所以這個督導……是你們撥錢給屏東縣環保局，環保局去執行，所以這個錢100%都是你們給的，100%都是？"],["彭部長啓明：是的。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，那這個要加強。第二個，環管署在第18款第4項、第18款第5項的這一些黨團凍結案，我一起來問，剛剛很多委員也問了很多。在垃圾不落地這一項到登革熱，颱風現在又來了，你有什麼想法和做法？再來還有一些關於工廠的VOC等等，有沒有什麼想法？"],["顏署長旭明：是，向委員報告。其實我們在登革熱防治上面，從去年開始在北、中、南，每1年各實施實兵演練，這些實兵演練就是不管是災害或者是登革熱等等之類的，大家在別的縣市機具會由我們調度到現場，這種高司演練跟現場演練，北、中、南三區各有責任區做演練。在工廠的VOC上面我們以科技執法，這也有顯示在年度預算裡面，希望透過遠端的監控方式來處理，這個是我們科技執法的新做法。"],["蘇委員清泉：你跟各縣市的環保局都有在監控這些瓶瓶罐罐，或是颱風過後像這兩天雨這樣下，都有在監控那些清除情形嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：是，他們清除完畢會跟我們回報數量，當然我們也有一個系統來……如果哪一個縣市有需要支援的話，會調度其他的資源或其他縣市來支援清除。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果他們做得好，有評比、有獎勵？有沒有？"],["顏署長旭明：有，在年度的績效評比制度裡面有這一項。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。第3個問題我要問部長，你剛剛一直在講的環境跟AI的監控，現在做的事有哪一些是關於AI的？"],["彭部長啓明：關於AI，第一個是對於空品的預測，例如現在PM2.5是多少？像我自己是敏感體質，PM2.5就設定20以上會push給我，那個就是經過AI去算未來會到20，如果一直提升，它就會主動推估未來將達多少，我的手機就會收到，這個部分能保障每個人的健康。"],["蘇委員清泉：各縣市的data如果有超過預警值，你們的署長及高階人員的手機會顯示出來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，例如發生火災時煙要往哪裡飄？我們大概都會即時得到回報，消防署會給我們，我們也有自己的，所以都會提醒預警以做超前的部署。"],["蘇委員清泉：有危險值的通報，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們內部都有，可以看得到。"],["蘇委員清泉：你看手機就會顯示出來？三更半夜也都有？"],["彭部長啓明：對，也都有。"],["蘇委員清泉：這樣的話，那你剛剛說家庭裡面也會產生PM2.5是在講什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有啦，普通來講，我們開個gas煮菜，一啟動瓦斯點火等於是燒天然氣，其實那個時候PM2.5就會跳起來，我們有算過大概會到三、四十微克，家裡如果很乾淨的話大概差不多都是10以下。"],["蘇委員清泉：家裡用的是自然瓦斯……"],["彭部長啓明：LNG。"],["蘇委員清泉：一桶一桶的是中國石油公司煉油時所產生的副產品，你剛剛一直在講那個瓦斯船載來要給臺灣發電用的是液態天然氣，兩個的來源是不同的。"],["彭部長啓明：但是它的原理是類似的。"],["蘇委員清泉：當然，但這是石油在蒸餾、分裂的時候所產生的瓦斯，它裡面應該比液態天然氣還多樣化，裡面的化學物質可能會更多。"],["彭部長啓明：家裡面的其實也不少，我們現在會啟動研究調查，因為像有人說家裡要換電磁爐會比較好，但是也有一些國外研究是說沒影響，是在於你要吃什麼，例如國外有研究煎培根PM2.5可以到2000，其實我們一直很想要用健康的觀點來保障每個國人的健康，就如炸豬排其實PM2.5也會衝高……"],["蘇委員清泉：在美國很多都用電爐，他們都是220、230，他們都用電爐，佷少像我們用炸的。我們的瓦斯就是桶裝的瓦斯或天然、自然瓦斯，我在想因為是煉油的過程所產生的附加物，它裡面可能可能會比液態天然氣還多樣化，化學成分會更多，有沒有研究過這部分？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個部分我有問過同仁，國內過去的調查很少……"],["蘇委員清泉：很少。"],["彭部長啓明：像我們洗熱水澡用的gas其實也會產生出來，有關生活裡面的部分就是我們未來要調查的重點。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你要往這個方面去研究，就是關於使用燃燒瓦斯造成燃燒不完全。為什麼冬天關個窗戶洗個熱水澡也會死人？這都是這樣來的，是不是有其他的化學物質？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，那是一氧化碳中毒。"],["蘇委員清泉：你說那是一氧化碳中毒，但是我認為是有很多燃燒不完全的化學物質，搞不好裡面有一、二十種成分，這個部分環保署要去研究。"],["彭部長啓明：是。我們今年會有一個重點，就是健康……"],["蘇委員清泉：司長，你們可能要去做一下研究，好不好？好，最後一個就是我們屏東，剛才王育敏講了一大堆，這些煤、這些發電廠的污染一直飄、飄、飄，我從小到現在，林園石化工業區，我對它真的是很厭惡，那個真的是「糜糜卯卯」，東港那邊跟新園那邊有這麼多肺部有問題的人，我看跟那邊是絕對的關係啦，興達、大林飄過來的。關於屏東本身，你說你用AI在監控，那些農業機械，什麼割稻機、什麼等等，那些的污染源應該很少吧？"],["彭部長啓明：有的時候如果是用柴油燒，例如操作的農民如果用柴油燒機具的話，那個對身體還是不好，所以這個部分，其實我們以後也要來注意。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，我有發現到這一塊，所以我們一起來研究看看，看它怎麼防範。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇召委的詢答。","我記得早上介紹王委員的時候，我說謝謝王委員，謝謝王委員是因為王委員代表臺灣到WHA為臺灣發聲，各位再鼓掌一下。抱歉！我剛才漏掉了，另外一個王委員也是，抱歉、抱歉！","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時31分）","繼續開會（10時42分）"],["主席：休息時間到，請各位回座。","接下來請王正旭委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a7ad7f74ccb6f55716c7274cb7632216ed00acb659e6b7ab05217a0206b96f6855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:13:05 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"text":"去年在總預算審查的時候,有關於第21項、26項、28項的這個組決議有關這個國民參與審判制度的這個成效大概都是,這個決議都是有關這個國民參與審判制度的這個成效的評估那這個部分"},{"start":68.882,"end":83.369,"text":"這個我看你們在5月10號有送了有把這三個案子的三個組決議的書面報告都送到本委員會來那我仔細的看那大致上的內容大概跟我們113年10月所做出來的這個112年國慾參與審判制度的成效評估報告大概就是這個內容大概一致"},{"start":93.717,"end":120.798,"text":"那所以我大概就以這個112年的這個國民參審制的這個成效評估報告裡面的一些問題那在現在又經過了這個一年,我大概有些問題來跟副秘書長請教一下我看我們這個評估報告裡面第55頁他大概提出現在目前兩個這個國民法官的這個參審制度的這個最大的兩個問題"},{"start":123.021,"end":151.355,"text":"第一個問題是我們目前所選出來這些國民法官的候選人他的組成他的這些年齡、學歷跟職業分佈跟全國人口的這個落差這是我們自己評估報告指出來第一個大問題尤其是在五十歲以上的人口高中職學歷以下還有退休的、無業的、家管的、公教人員、學生這些比例在整個人口結構的比例上面都有極大的落差這些部分都比例偏低"},{"start":152.83,"end":171.745,"text":"那這個第二個問題就是說也是同樣這份報告就是說國民法官的到場率偏低到場率現在只有按照那個時候113年10月所做出來的評估報告國民法官的到場率只有45.9%不到一半"},{"start":178.454,"end":202.717,"text":"這個到場率只有45.9%那所以我是大概針對這兩個問題就請要請我們這個司法院做一下說明我們是不是有什麼樣的措施來這個促使這個司法院進一步提升這個國民法官第一個促成國民法官這個組成他的多元性跟人口結構的這樣子的落差能夠把它彌平第二個就是說有關他的這個到場率的問題有什麼方式可以改善"},{"start":205.959,"end":222.272,"text":"有關於那個國民法官那個組成這個部分齁其實剛開始的時候他是經過兩次那個隨機的那個篩選的所以說是就那個人口裡面事實上沒有特定就是說任何人只要符合資格事實上他都會被那個篩那只是就是說"},{"start":223.512,"end":248.851,"text":"被抽中之後到法院的人呢他這個時候我想就會有他們主觀意願的問題就是什麼人他願意就是進到那個法院來那有些人他就不願意那後來所呈現的就是說到法庭來的實際上擔任國民法官那個人呢就是如同委員所垂詢的就是說他們那個分佈會跟就是整個人口數會有落差我想那個是中間這一層就是說"},{"start":250.353,"end":268.174,"text":"這個gap就是說認識什麼人有什麼樣具體的改善措施嗎提升他的多元化跟他的這個是那我們現在那個司法院所做的就是說還是一直在做那個推廣就是我們多元的那個宣導就是利用這個跟到場率大概有就是"},{"start":269.431,"end":298.11,"text":"我希望說能夠聽到具體的措施啦具體的措施怎麼樣到底現在這個到場率這麼低它的這個具體的原因大概是什麼主要障礙是什麼啦那你們的改善方案是什麼就是描述這個現象這個你們在113年的報告裡面就已經描述了這個現象了但是我經過這一年多的時間我還是沒有看到你們的這個具體的改善措施啦尤其是再過半年115年"},{"start":299.871,"end":324.616,"text":"1月1號我們開始我們這個整個這個國民法官的審判的範圍大幅的擴大大幅擴大我們這個有關這個未來所犯本刑最新最新本刑為10年以上有期徒刑之罪全部通通要納入從明年1月1號開始對不對是所以現在這樣子的狀況我們沒有改善的話我是很擔心半年後這樣子的這個國民法官審判範圍擴大我們這個量能"},{"start":327.597,"end":345.573,"text":"這個量能變這麼大是不是能夠負擔這部分我請你們要評估具體的措施好不好時間的關係第二個就是有關這個量刑就是你們同樣這份報告的第215頁你們提出有關量刑鑑定量能不足的問題"},{"start":353.308,"end":376.813,"text":"那這個我們現在各地的這些醫療院所專業團隊他們對於這個參與量刑鑑定的這個認識跟參與意願還是非常的低啦還是很有限那這個我也是同樣就是說希望我們這個是不是我們跟教育部跟這個衛福部這邊有沒有辦法來增加改善現在實務上對於量能鑑定團隊的這些需求"},{"start":377.574,"end":390.445,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是司法院目前已經有就是把那個全國劃分成北中南還有東四個那個區那我們有主動的去邀請這一些那個法院目前有二十"},{"start":395.989,"end":410.899,"text":"那我再補充一下有關於量能鑑定不足的部分我們行事已經持續在跟相關的醫療機構還有精神鑑定的相關機構來做研細那目前我們把全國分成北中南東四個區塊"},{"start":412.18,"end":433.932,"text":"這個設施是一個解決的部分,但是這部分我們過去確實一直在努力,因為實際上實務上就碰到量能不足的問題但是我們一直,這個學界也一直在提,社會也一直在提,除了這些量刑鑑定以外,有關於科刑資料的這些調查工具,這些部分我們有在做嗎?"},{"start":435.172,"end":456.267,"text":"那我在這邊再做補充,有關於量刑前調查的部分不是鑑定,就是量刑前調查就是科型資料的調查這部分我們已經委託台北大學專案研究,那這個大概在八月份整個研究案就會出來會包括如何做量刑的調查,這部分它有個操作手冊,我們稱為通用版的操作2.0"},{"start":457.848,"end":477.077,"text":"我們有持續在處理因為確實即將在半年就要上路這個我們這個國民法官參審室整個這個他的案件就要擴大了所以這個部分擴大之後下去我自己事實上統計你10年以上的本行我這樣統計就有90多了90"},{"start":481.445,"end":508.963,"text":"二條的相關的這些案件都必須採取國民法官的審判所以這樣的量我希望你們能夠提早因應那接下來這個剩下一半分鐘的時間有關上個禮拜五我們本院的這個院會這個就通過了有關於法庭直播的這個法院組織法的修改禁覆二讀禁覆二讀就是未來這個有關這個法庭"},{"start":510.014,"end":521.67,"text":"要採取在這個事實省的部分也要採行這個這個原則上這個直播原則上不直播在例外直播的狀況那這個"},{"start":524.506,"end":539.375,"text":"這部分這個進覆二讀立法院把這樣子的法院組織法又進覆二讀我個人認為是非常不妥啦這個有關這個司法審判公開雖然是司法司改國事會議的結論但是他的公開的這個方法"},{"start":541.656,"end":558.917,"text":"裡面是不是一定要採用直播這種方式事實上在社會上面是有蠻大的疑慮這樣子的一個社會上大家還有各方不同意見的案子你不把他讓他到委員會來進行專業的審查直接進負二讀"},{"start":559.838,"end":584.422,"text":"我們現在這個立法院的這個立法品質的這禁負惡毒大家也知道那個品質禁負惡毒不要說有沒有討論常常在表決前半個小時我們都還不曉得他最後的這個修正案內容是什麼這個是很大的問題尤其是現在整個朝野協商的這個機制整個被掏空所以在這個幾乎是行事走朝野協商都走行事而已所以變成這樣子這個案子禁負惡毒"},{"start":585.062,"end":601.046,"text":"馬上這個消息出來就引起各方的真的很大的意見我想司法院應該清楚有關法官協會、女法官協會各個基層的這些司法官對於未來的法庭直播看起來是非常非常的有疑慮這部分是不是請我們副院長這邊說明一下"},{"start":604.997,"end":620.873,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁其實我們法官並不怕檢驗齁那我們的目前的法庭也非常的公開透明了齁只要是就是呃可以公開的那個審理的那個案件呢都歡迎大家就是那個進來那個旁聽就是監督這個這個司法這個"},{"start":624.136,"end":643.11,"text":"司法公開審理主要就是要增加司法的透明度還有就是要確保司法的可監督性但是絕對不等於直播不是說只有直播才是司法公開那直播是不是司法公開最好的方式他對司法有什麼樣的好處對公開審判有什麼好處他對公開審判造成什麼樣的"},{"start":646.713,"end":666.065,"text":"的影響什麼樣的負面影響這個東西當然是事關重大事關重大現在這樣子的你如果說所有的法院法庭都必須直播當然這個法院組織法我知道它裡面有一些有一些例外的例外的不直播有一些規定但是事實上這樣直播的方式它最大的問題"},{"start":667.657,"end":690.382,"text":"有一些疑慮是在我們立法之前一定要解決的一個報告委員就是因為他的疑慮非常大那所以說其實外國他們也都做了非常多的研究我知道我們這邊也都列出了外國立法例這個最怕的就是發生輿論的公審網路霸凌造成案件的這些包括連證人鑑定人他們的出席意願整個都降低甚至我們剛剛所討論國民法官"},{"start":692.682,"end":708.496,"text":"大家可能國民法官要擔任國民法官因為我要被直播所以我擔任國民法院議員就更加的低落啦 更加低落這些都是問題啦 都是問題那更 這些只是技術問題而已最怕的就是他衝擊這個這個不利於事實調查"},{"start":709.617,"end":738.156,"text":"這才是我們最怕 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Day,就是以事情那一天往回推算,我該做好什麼樣的準備。小朋友七月份要聯考,他就會往前推算,他要幾次模擬考,哪一科考不好,三角函數哪裡不好,我哪裡來修正,大概所有的計畫都跟這個差不多。"},{"start":36.553,"end":62.123,"text":"那我們最近常常聽到一個時間叫做2027年2027年事實上在2015年提出到現在已經10年了當時習近平提出了幾個時間點2021中國共產黨建軍百年他們要脫貧然後他們時間到了不管有沒有脫貧一定宣布脫貧叫做2021脫貧小康事實上中國現在還有4億人口每月所得低於1000塊"},{"start":63.644,"end":84.639,"text":"那另外一個2025中國製造也就中國要設定全球製造業的標準就像USB的標準一樣他們認為他們是世界工廠一個COVID-19這個也結束了沒有了所以2021的計畫事實上對中國來講包含李克強這個死掉以後呢中國的脫貧其實是算失敗2025中國製造被川普"},{"start":89.342,"end":105.129,"text":"這個拜登呢他們兩個其實在過去這幾年讓2025中國製造大概也結束了不管是晶片戰爭等等現在剩下一個日期叫20272027是中國解放軍建軍百年習近平講了很多話他其中講的就是2027要實現百年奮鬥目標"},{"start":109.632,"end":127.168,"text":"其中後面還有就是建構一個在這個區域可以排除干預區域性的強權那很多美方的智庫美方的將領大概就用2027作為解放軍動作的一個設定的D-Day"},{"start":127.748,"end":153.624,"text":"或者是Zero Day那0日就從那邊計算來的所以我要請教就是說我們看到一些說法2021年3月當時的Philip Davidson提出6年內中國會對台灣軍事行動6年就是指2027再來2024年的3月我們前一任的Archilino他最近有來台灣他在美國正式的作證"},{"start":154.525,"end":173.525,"text":"也指出解放軍這種種的準備措施大概在2027年前會具備對台採取軍事行動的能力4月24號這個他在接受訪問的時候呢他提出一個情報說習近平指示軍隊2027年前要做好準備再來"},{"start":174.986,"end":199.084,"text":"2024年10月這個帕帕羅上將呢他說2027年解放軍攻台提前發生他對於美軍會擊敗解放軍的能力有信心這時候講到因應了我這待會要請教部長2025年最新的3月18號這個卡頓卡頓是戰略司令部的他在年度的國防大會警告美國的所有將領中國將加速軍事擴張"},{"start":202.927,"end":216.486,"text":"已經回到大國競爭的時代就冷戰時期那他又提出一次習近平只是在2027年前做好奪取台灣的軍事準備那5月15最近這個"},{"start":219.449,"end":234.814,"text":"這位好朋友他是美國在眾議院的重量級的共和黨級議員他是美國與中國共產黨戰略競爭特別委員會的主席另外一個是川普的好朋友是參議員叫做Blackburn"},{"start":235.194,"end":262.663,"text":"他們除了提出各個飯店不應該用中國台灣來貶抑台灣主權以外他裡面提到2027年不是美國的時間表是中國的 是習近平的時間表習近平已經下令解放軍在2027年前準備對台動武的能力好 我揭露這些東西裡面看到了美國在軍事委員會在相關的委員會作證的情報的指出我第一個要請教"},{"start":264.144,"end":279.64,"text":"部長就我們國防部所掌握的情資解放軍建構的戰爭系統也就是他建構的體系是否已經朝2027年準備完成對台動武的準備你們的判斷是什麼"},{"start":280.643,"end":306.394,"text":"我們認為我們應該要讓我們一方面是料敵從寬一方面是我們要讓他2027年的這樣子的一個所謂的攻台的計畫不斷的往後遞延這是我們的目的讓他每天早上起來覺得今天打台灣好像不是好日子我們再想一下吧這是在區域地緣政治討論很多"},{"start":307.515,"end":316.524,"text":"所以我們要強化我們的自我的防衛能力所以有做一些準備那你有看到中方也在做準備嗎當然中方每天都以他這樣"},{"start":318.018,"end":338.64,"text":"每年大概成長百分之七,每年吧,都七點多趴的這樣的一個軍事預算不斷地在成長,那當然我們對這個東西要加以警惕,這是當然的。所以我請教部長,就是說中國解放軍對台的威脅到二零二七年是不是來到一個高峰,可以這樣講嗎?"},{"start":339.946,"end":361.159,"text":"他的威脅的性質,我沒有問說我們有沒有準備好,就他的準備,他的對我們的威脅,到2027年前後是不是來到一個高峰期?我認為他應該是不斷地會從事這個,他的軍事力量的一個擴張,而且他的野心應該不是只有在於這個亞太的區域,"},{"start":361.679,"end":387.352,"text":"的一個霸權而且他會向這個還會往外擴張整個的往外擴張因為他騷擾的不是只有台灣菲律賓那邊都有那我該問的是他就我們看中國解放軍對台灣的威脅準備到達2027年至少他們的節點要做個盤整那我現在看我軍我們台灣我們國軍我們準備最不足的時候是不是已經過了"},{"start":389.662,"end":409.539,"text":"最危險的我們最敵我的判別人家對我們的威脅他一直堆疊他的能力是一件事情我們自己有沒有準備我們能力夠不夠是另外一個界面兩個界面交叉分析那個點就是最危險的點嘛我想說那就我方我們國軍我直接坦白問最不足最危險的時刻過了沒我想我們"},{"start":413.447,"end":428.222,"text":"要不斷地求進步不斷地要同時進行國防改革所以我們提出來就是說2027要有達成這個高戰備的能力意思就是說我們要能夠在2027年"},{"start":430.484,"end":443.614,"text":"的時候呢要可以達到在極短的時間之內部署跟執行戰那個高戰備的意思其實就是讓我們台灣國軍我坦白講特別是陸軍要成為stand in force"},{"start":446.147,"end":460.524,"text":"戰區內準備好的而這個力量其實指的是我們的主戰部隊第一時間的主戰部隊要有類似美國他們兵海戰鬥團那一區叫Standing in Force在區域內立即快速的擋住"},{"start":461.445,"end":481.411,"text":"我們現在的建構目標是這樣子嗎我想應該不只是我們的陸軍我們所有的三軍都要我剛才問說我們準備最不足或最危險的時候是不是已經過了我看你微笑你應該知道我在問什麼了我時間點我不點出來那個moment要過去那未來威脅我們才要來因應那另外我再進一步問"},{"start":482.825,"end":502.281,"text":"我們高戰備所指的就是在那個當下我們的人跟人的狀態跟部隊的心態都要達到能夠立即因應各種變化敵情指的是這個嘛對 也就是說我們要藉由立即備戰的操演 憨光演習等等各式的聯合作戰的訓練來"},{"start":505.717,"end":521.428,"text":"或是真實的戰場體驗跟作戰的參數確保我最後一分鐘問幾個重要題目所以在2027年前我們對美軍事採購的項目有沒有根據這個思維要拿到什麼項目我們有所調整 有還是沒有"},{"start":522.068,"end":538.293,"text":"我們不斷的在跟美方從這樣子的一個思維出發從我在國安會擔任秘書長的時候就開始討論我們從2021年就不斷的在做這樣子的一個共識的行程"},{"start":538.533,"end":553.628,"text":"美方認為當下最急於提供的裝備也是根據這個思維應該有一些裝備也有所調整我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛這是一個長期的溝通過程我方認為這個是我需要的他們認為2027年你們應該需要這個兩方討論後之後項目會做一些調整沒有錯吧對關鍵戰力的行程"},{"start":560.655,"end":569.888,"text":"那我最後問一個人的問題我只舉個例子我們今年三軍官校招生女生好像超過了但是男生的學官不足這怎麼辦"},{"start":573.454,"end":597.393,"text":"應該講的是指國防管理學院跟政戰學院的部分我們今年的正規的軍事院校所招收的名額都比我們預期要來得多來得好來得好這個要比去年要來得好很多也就是說我們預期本來是招收一千五百多,今年包圍四千零八"},{"start":598.682,"end":616.845,"text":"預計照說1500多然後報名了4000多這其實比以前好很多不是比較好而已是好很多好非常多男女學官有沒有失衡跟委員報告我覺得就是說現在拿我覺得第一個"},{"start":618.089,"end":644.641,"text":"我們招收希望能夠滿足我們的這個需求那我們確實現在招收的名額已經遠高於我們的預期這是第一點第二點我們在招收的時候我們並不認為要區分男女這樣子的一個比例那第三個我認為女性從事志願役之後她們的表現也不輸於男性"},{"start":645.461,"end":673.244,"text":"那再來就是說我們第四點我簡單講就是說我們之後志願役的這個軍事官兵等退伍之後我們還是納入後備的這個動員邊關的範圍之內我剛才講說我們在招收官校的學官的時候這些學生的時候我們並沒有設定男女生的比例差異沒有嘛我們設定是個總員合我要收一千五這一千五不分男女達標我就用嘛"},{"start":673.444,"end":684.209,"text":"對 所以所謂的男生不足 女生偏多這句論述本身是錯誤的喔對 我們都以成績的優勢來看我們沒有設定性別的差別嘛是OK 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":281,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時11分）主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。我今天要問一個日期的問題，當然日期會有左右更動，但是我們在設定計畫目標時，有的時候叫做D-Day，有時候叫做Zero-Day，就是以事情那一天往回推算我該做好什麼樣的準備。小朋友7月份要聯考，他就會往前推算他要幾次模擬考，哪一科考不好、三角函數哪裡不好，就從哪裡來修正。所有的計畫大概都跟這個差不多。","我們最近常常聽到一個時間叫做2027年，這個2027年事實上在2015年提出到現在已經10年了，當時習近平提出了幾個時間點，2021年是中國共產黨建軍百年，他們要脫貧，然後時間到了，不管有沒有脫貧，一定宣布脫貧，叫做2021脫貧小康，事實上中國現在還有4億人口每月所得低於1,000塊。另外，2025中國製造，也就是中國要設定全球製造業的標準，就像USB的標準一樣，他們認為他們是世界工廠，COVID-19結束了、沒有了，所以事實上2021的計畫對中國來講，包含李克強死掉以後，中國的脫貧其實算是失敗；2025中國製造，在川普、拜登他們兩個執政下，過去這幾年大概也讓2025中國製造結束了，不管是晶片戰爭等等。現在剩下一個日期叫2027，2027年是中國解放軍建軍百年，習近平講了很多話，其中講的就是2027年要實現百年奮鬥目標等等，後面還有建構在這個區域可以排除干預區域性的強權。很多美方的智庫、美方的將領大概就用2027年作為解放軍動作設定的一個D-Day或者是Zero-Day，零日就從那邊計算來的。","我要請教的是，我們看到一些說法，2021年3月當時Philip Davidson提出6年內中國會對臺灣軍事行動，6年就是指2027年。前任印太司令部司令Aquilino最近有來臺灣，他2024年3月在美國正式作證指出，解放軍做出種種的準備措施，大概在2027年前會具備對臺採取軍事行動的能力；4月24號他在接受訪問時提出一個情報，表示習近平指示軍隊在2027年前要做好準備。再來是2024年10月，帕帕羅上將說，若2027年解放軍攻臺提前發生，他對於美軍擊敗解放軍的能力有信心。這時候就講到因應了，我待會要請教部長。2025年最新的，3月18號戰略司令部司令Cotton在年度的國防大會警告美國所有將領，中國加速軍事擴張，已經回到大國競爭的時代，也就是冷戰時期，他又再次提出，習近平指示在2027年前做好奪取臺灣的軍事準備。最近，5月15日有一位好朋友，他是美國眾議院重量級的共和黨籍議員，也是美國與中國共產黨戰略競爭特別委員會的主席，另外一個是川普的好朋友，他是參議員Blackburn，他們除了提出各個飯店不應該用中國臺灣貶抑臺灣主權以外，也提到2027年不是美國的時間表，而是中國的，是習近平的時間表，習近平已經下令解放軍在2027年前準備對臺動武的能力。","我揭露這些東西，在裡面看到美國軍事委員及相關委員會作證的情報，我第一個要請教部長，就國防部所掌握的情資，解放軍建構的戰爭系統，也就是他們建構的體系，是否已經朝2027年完成對臺動武的準備？你們的判斷是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們認為應該要讓……我們一方面是料敵從寬，一方面是要讓他們2027年所謂的攻臺計畫不斷往後遞延，這是我們的目的。"],["王委員定宇：not today policy，讓他每天早上醒來都覺得今天好像不是打臺灣的好日子，再想一下吧！這是not today policy，這個在區域地緣政治討論很多。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們要強化自我的防衛能力。"],["王委員定宇：所以有做了一些準備。那你有看到中方也在做準備嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：中方的軍事預算每年大概都以百分之七點多不斷的在成長，當然我們對這個部分要加以警惕，這是當然的……"],["王委員定宇：我請教部長，中國解放軍對臺威脅到2027年是不是來到一個高峰？可以這樣講嗎？對於他們威脅的性質。我沒有問我們有沒有準備好，就他們的準備，他們對我們的威脅，到2027年前後是不是來到一個高峰期？"],["顧部長立雄：我認為他們應該會不斷的從事軍事力量的擴張，而且他們的野心應該不只是在亞太的區域霸權，他們會向……"],["王委員定宇：還會往外擴張……"],["顧部長立雄：會整個往外擴張。"],["王委員定宇：因為他們騷擾的不是只有臺灣，菲律賓那邊都有。"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以……"],["王委員定宇：我剛才問的是，就我們看，中國解放軍對臺灣的威脅準備到達2027年，至少他們的節點要做個盤整。再來看我軍，我們臺灣國軍準備最不足、最危險的時候是不是已經過了？針對敵我的判別，就是人家對我們的威脅，他們一直堆疊他們的能力是一件事情，我們自己有沒有準備，我們的能力夠不夠是另外一個介面，兩個介面交叉分析的那個點就是最危險的點。我現在說的是，我直接坦白的問，我方國軍最不足、最危險的時刻過了沒？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們要不斷的求進步……"],["王委員定宇：當然。"],["顧部長立雄：要不斷的進行國防改革，所以我們提出在2027年達成高戰備的能力，意思就是要能夠在2027年的時候，可以達到在極短時間之內部署跟執行戰備狀態。"],["王委員定宇：高戰備的意思其實就是讓我們臺灣國軍，我坦白講，特別是陸軍，要成為Stand-in Forces，在戰區內準備好，而這個力量其實指的是我們的主戰部隊，第一時間的主戰部隊，要有類似美國濱海戰鬥團那一區叫做Stand-in Forces，在區域內立即快速的擋住，我們現在建構的目標是這樣子的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想應該不只是我們的陸軍，我們所有的三軍……"],["王委員定宇：三軍都要嘛！我剛才問的是，我們準備最不足或最危險的時候是不是已經過了？我看你在微笑，你應該知道我在問什麼，時間點我不提出來，那個moment要過去，這樣對於未來的威脅才有辦法因應。","另外，我再進一步問，我們高戰備所指的就是在那個當下，人跟人的狀態及部隊的心態都要達到能夠立即因應各種變化敵情，指的是這個嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：對，也就是我們要藉由立即備戰的操演、漢光演習等等各式聯合作戰的訓練，獲知真實的戰場體驗跟作戰的參數，確保我們的聯合作戰計畫是可行的。"],["王委員定宇：最後1分鐘，我還有幾個重要題目。在2027年前，我們對美軍事採購的項目，有沒有根據這個思維、要拿到什麼項目而有所調整？有還是沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：我們不斷跟美方從這樣的思維出發，從我在國安會擔任秘書長時……"],["王委員定宇：就開始討論？"],["顧部長立雄：我們從2021年就不斷在做這樣的共識形成。"],["王委員定宇：美方認為當下最急於提供的裝備也是根據這個思維，應該有一些裝備也有所調整，我這樣詮釋沒有錯吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是……"],["王委員定宇：這是一個長期的溝通過程，我方認為這個是我們需要的，他們認為2027年你們應該需要這個，兩方討論之後，項目會做一些調整，沒有錯吧？"],["顧部長立雄：對，關鍵戰力的形成……"],["王委員定宇：我最後問一個人的問題。我舉個例子，今年三軍官校招生，女生人數好像超過了，但男生學官不足，怎麼辦？"],["顧部長立雄：委員講的應該是國防管理學院跟政戰學院的部分，今年正規軍事院校招收的名額比我們預期要來得多……"],["王委員定宇：來得好？"],["顧部長立雄：來得好，比去年要來得好很多。也就是說，我們本來預期是招收一千五百多人，但今年報名有四千多人。"],["王委員定宇：預計招收一千五百多，結果報名的有四千多，這其實比以前好很多，不是比較好而已，是好很多！"],["顧部長立雄：好非常多。"],["王委員定宇：男女學官有沒有失衡？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一，在招收上我們希望能滿足我們的需求，確實，現在招收的名額已經遠高於我們的預期，這是第一點。第二，在招收時我們並不認為要區分男女比例……"],["王委員定宇：OK。"],["顧部長立雄：第三，我認為女性從事志願役之後，表現也不輸於男性。再來，我們……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為時間超過……"],["顧部長立雄：第四點我就簡單講，志願役的軍士官兵退伍之後，還是會納入後備的動員編管範圍內。"],["王委員定宇：在招收官校學官這些學生時，並沒有設定男女生的比例差異，沒有吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我們不可能……"],["王委員定宇：設定是總員額，譬如要收一千五，但這一千五不分男女，只要達標我就用？"],["顧部長立雄：對，以成績的優序……"],["王委員定宇：因此所謂男生不足、女生偏多這句論述本身是錯誤的？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們是以成績的優序來排……"],["王委員定宇：沒有設定性別差別？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員，部長請回。","接下來有請徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-17","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","王定宇","徐巧芯","林楚茵","鄭天財Sra 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大家都知道"},{"start":206.738,"end":225.539,"text":"但是這件事情 我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你 你說這件事情它合法 好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長 這件事情縱然他說它合法 它在合理的這個排放 這個可以運轉的時數 但是它合理嗎 合請嗎"},{"start":228.612,"end":253.438,"text":"一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核請你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組"},{"start":254.978,"end":280.689,"text":"還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為"},{"start":282.35,"end":296.359,"text":"所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼"},{"start":303.686,"end":325.896,"text":"基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的"},{"start":327.136,"end":332.434,"text":"那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責"},{"start":333.393,"end":361.568,"text":"那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色"},{"start":362.508,"end":372.559,"text":"環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來啊就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的啊當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的"},{"start":385.952,"end":406.059,"text":"這個就可以達到要不然環境有趣就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一電的使用量是世界最高如果你去平均這個人均的話我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據分攤下來就是如此"},{"start":412.521,"end":413.982,"text":"所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠 大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一"},{"start":430.49,"end":451.483,"text":"如果今天增加天然氣機組 這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛 不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下 我們這個在世界排名 這個數據 這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高 這個是應該要下降的數據啊"},{"start":454.705,"end":470.239,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起"},{"start":478.308,"end":487.894,"text":"也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有 我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64"},{"start":494.358,"end":523.045,"text":"還沒有到嗎 那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦 因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是 我們目前是用我們各種的資料來你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧"},{"start":523.8,"end":536.67,"text":"他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28%"},{"start":541.872,"end":560.24,"text":"這是在畫大餅不會這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部會你還相信他提供的數據這個"},{"start":562.833,"end":580.083,"text":"我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的"},{"start":584.295,"end":585.617,"text":"當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼"},{"start":594.608,"end":615.825,"text":"當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正喔因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民啊不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是"},{"start":616.906,"end":644.315,"text":"不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":561,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時7分）謝謝召委，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我想請教，你有沒有去過瑞士訪問？"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["王委員育敏：那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何？"],["彭部長啓明：非常好。"],["王委員育敏：非常好？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：那你知不知道他們的電力結構？"],["彭部長啓明：知道，核能占比很高。"],["王委員育敏：很高嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：所以我今天要跟你討論的就是，為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好？我們臺灣其實是在退步當中，我必須講「退步」兩個字。我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起出席WHA相關的會議、訪問瑞士，的確我跟你的感受一樣，到了瑞士之後，第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新，它的空氣非常清新是來自於什麼？它是一個低碳發電的國家，所謂的低碳，它的水力占了五成，核能占了三分之一，所以這些低碳占比就已經超過八成了，它的燃煤大概只有2到3%，就是這種火力的。那你看看我們臺灣，我們臺灣現在連除役的機組都可以重新運轉，我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候，坦白講還滿難過的，因為賴總統告訴大家說，我們不缺電，我們的備轉容量率都十幾%，他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲，結果跟事實完全不一樣，我們的實情是，人家一問說興達電廠為什麼要運轉？因為電不夠啊！因為我們的備轉容量率小於6%、小於8%，所以就要啟用。我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的，為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢？一個還可以繼續延役的核三廠2號機，它就跟瑞士他們的能源一樣，核能其實是低碳的，結果你不用，硬是要除役，然後高污染的興達電廠，包括大林電廠，都是因為當地高雄居民已經在抗議，所以不發給他們執照，有的是已經除役，但偏偏還要運轉，這是什麼能源政策？部長，我覺得經濟部跟總統府都在害你啊！他們錯誤的政策，讓你的減碳任務跟目標完全不可能達到。","從2016年到現在，我們國內因為燃煤發電增加的碳排量已經高達80萬噸了，請問你們環境部再怎麼努力，有一方的政策不斷再增加碳排，然而你們又在國際承諾要減碳，這完全是背道而馳的方案，這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢？在這件事情上，我認為部長要維持你專業跟中立的立場，因為媒體問你，你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話就說：我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二，我們火力不是唯一的污染源。這大家都知道，但是針對這件事情，我看到今天早上媒體訪問你，你說這件事情是合法，好像你們環境部也無可奈何，但是我要告訴部長，這件事情縱然你說它合法，也在合理可以運轉的時數裡排放，但是它合理嗎？合情嗎？一點都不，當我們有更好的選擇，我們在這個能源政策上，可以選擇一個低碳能源的時候，我們不選擇，這就是不合理啊！","另外一個合情，你們有尊重人民的感受嗎？你今天告訴大家說：核三廠2號機可以準時除役，沒問題！我們的電都是夠的。結果是實情不然嘛！你們把高污染的燃煤機組還要加大它的運轉量，進而增加空污，你認為人民心裡的感受是如何？為什麼國家不能給我們更好的選擇？為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定？這個就是我們看到這件事情，為什麼討論了幾天，人民還是那麼的在乎，我相信你從民間出來，比其他的官員，你更應該能貼近人民的感受，我是這麼認為。","所以在這件事情上，我想請教的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎？在那個成員裡面，你們真的不能發聲嗎？不是還有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎？我們不是要永續嗎？我要請教部長，在這件事情上到底環境部還能做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，這個核能或是電力的調度，這部分是屬於經濟部的職掌。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["彭部長啓明：必須說職掌，我們當然對於它有沒有違反環評的承諾？例如它運轉時數不能超過720小時，我們會嚴格監督會去算它運轉時數大概有多少？這個是我們的角色，至於委員提到委員會的內容，委員會其實對這部分是開放的，我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責，不是我們環境部的權責。"],["王委員育敏：你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣的低碳永續，而且你又必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場，你有你們的主張，而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控，如果什麼都是只有經濟部掌控，就是我們現在看到的狀況。經濟部只是說：反正對於各種能源，我們不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題，我們也不用擔心減碳的承諾。那些都不是他們的職責，但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色，環境部應該要把你們的立場拿出來，就是我反對在能源選項裡面，他們去用高污染的嘛！這是你們可以講的，當你可以有選擇權的時候，如果沒有選擇權，當然就沒得談，但是當還有選擇權的時候，選擇一個最佳方案，對於環境永續、對於減碳更好的方案，我覺得環境部是可以有角色的，你們是可以講的，這個是可以達到的，要不然環境永續就是講假的。","接下來看一下我們現在臺灣每人煤電的使用量是世界最高，如果以人均計算的話，我們比中國大陸還要高，平均每一個人煤電用量來到4,859.6瓦特，這是國際上的數據，分攤下來就是如此，所以在這樣的情況底下，還要讓煤電來救援嗎？我們的興達電廠及大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎？這個是為什麼臺中市長盧秀燕當時在看中火的議題的時候，呼籲「增一拆一」？如果今天增加天然氣機組，原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉，不拆掉的後果就是這樣子，都亂用嘛！不夠的時候，就拿高污染的能源設備來救援，在這樣的情況底下，我們在世界排名的數據，這個第一名是不好看的。我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高，這是應該要下降的數據，所以這件事情，我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的方向去走。","另外，我們現在放任煤電去用的話，這個減碳目標就是會造成你們環境部永遠沒有辦法達標，我們過去溫室氣體減量的這一個目標，沒有一次是達標的；第一期只要減少2%，也達不到，第二期目標要減少10%，更是不可能的任務，實際只有減量1.79%，已經確定就是跳票了。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這還沒有到，因為我們2023年是4.64%。"],["王委員育敏：還沒有到嗎？你可不可以告訴大家，我們不會跳票嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是希望再努力啦！因為目前我們有在估算大概到2025年應該可以到達8%到9%左右，的確還差一點點，但是我們一定會持續在減碳的路徑上努力。"],["王委員育敏：現在燃煤電廠還火力全開，你這麼的有自信啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們目前是用各種資料來……"],["王委員育敏：你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧！"],["彭部長啓明：基本上它是用整年的這樣方式來計算的。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們可以看，至少目前看到的數據就是差很遠，你們還拉高了第三期的目標值，本來要減量24%，現在你們設定是28%，這是在畫大餅嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，我們有一個努力的目標，而且經過他們包含能源部門提供的數據，我們都有核實再去double check過。"],["王委員育敏：能源部門？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：經濟部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：你還相信他們嗎？我覺得經濟部就是害你整個減碳目標不能達到的部會，你還相信他們提供的數據，我覺得錯誤的能源政策，真的是會害全民受苦，我目前感受非常深刻，看看別的國家再回來想想自己，我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他們生活的高品質、他們整個環境的永續、他們整個狀態那麼的好？因為他們上位的政策是對的嘛！當我看到我們臺灣在倒退走的時候，還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候，我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼？當你有更好的選擇的時候，你沒有幫人民選擇，我只能講這個就是對不起人民，對不起人民的健康，我希望錯誤的政策要儘快的修正，因為為官者，你的服務對象是人民啊！不是自己偏執的理念，非核家園在臺灣其實是不可能實現的，也不應該實現的，因為臺灣沒有條件，我們跟瑞士很像，如果瑞士需要核能的話，我們臺灣有什麼本事可以完全不用核能？我真的想不明白這個道理，如果要用燃煤來取代核能，我是堅決反對的，因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康，我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策，一切都是為了人民，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40af7a77697d38dad1a6c7274cb7632216ed00acb659e6b7ab0306605202daef2345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:58:03 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剛好你在場我給你 不要說糾正啦 給你提醒啦2024年的12月23號啊 你們的賴斯巴委員講現在喔 中央給地方的部分啊 除了統籌稅款啊還有一般補助款跟計畫補助款 這比例佔了蠻多的中央政府根本不需要從變種一算 只需要減少補助款就可以啦換言之啦 行政院只需要"},{"start":54.204,"end":61.35,"text":"只需在補助款的部分減少三千多億一切就可以迎刃而解這個是你們賴司法委員講的啦 抱歉啦 你要照喔 我說不知道那你就知道啦 所以說這個齁你這個 我們在在一檔在砍這個總預算的時候啊他總預算砍了 然後在整個到最後是在不知道要抬什麼的時候齁通商再去抬一次對不對齁抬到跟你說 欸 是要抬什麼 數十年了 你自己去抬啦 我不會啦齁"},{"start":84.534,"end":105.523,"text":"一般性補助裡面就是在整個總預算裡面你把總預算給砍了你什麼你其他的東西叫行政院叫中央政府再自己去找錢出來這個是有點強人所難啦這個我做這樣的一個補充啦請回 請回來 請我們司法院副秘書長來 副秘書長請"},{"start":114.871,"end":138.225,"text":"我想整個耕燒法上路這三年從零到有確實踏出了關鍵一步但是我們這三週年我們在討論的也不是說只有好就好了因為耕燒其實它不只是一個個人的問題更是一個公共安全的延伸制度的一個空隙裡面我們很擔心的就是下一個悲劇的溫床"},{"start":140.046,"end":167.597,"text":"那我們看這部條文裡面現在看大家好像是認為只是在定義條文其實真正的目的才不是我們當初是希望說這部法令是變成人民的一個安全守護的一個盾牌那我來做一些回顧現在我們也一起來檢視這樣制度的一個缺口我看今天的報告裡面最主要是檢視這個法制的實施還有成效還有可能有一些不足的一個地方那"},{"start":168.482,"end":197.742,"text":"我看到就是說這三年 你看這一個成果下來更少把你設計的這三道防線裡面其實大家去看到當初那麼多人在呼籲三道防線書面告誡 保護令接下來是刑事處罰那你從受理案件這8488件到你開立書面的告誡5000多件違反告誡就522件那家暴法保護令的申請"},{"start":200.603,"end":217.248,"text":"1979件跟稍法保護令的申請412件提告5000多件移送4531件那從這些來看的話請看下一頁就是說這些數字裡面你可以看得出來就是"},{"start":219.72,"end":229.569,"text":"你這個告誡跟保護令之間它有一個空窗的問題對整個被害人來講的話會形成一個保護的斷點"},{"start":232.642,"end":248.716,"text":"我想問的就是說 這個保護空窗期食物的問題跟我們如何去應對那是不是從書面告誡到保護令合法 經過一段時間又怕又會亮成一個新案 我不曉得"},{"start":251.243,"end":274.008,"text":"我們司法院這個地方啊對於這個書面告誡發布到保護令核發前如何再去做更有效的一個保護的一個作為我覺得副理事長妳的看法是怎樣好 謝謝委員我請我們林市廳長回覆這個比較專業的這個部分好 那我請警政署警政署來嘛 也請到這位起來來先請"},{"start":278.146,"end":294.362,"text":"是主席委員那個代表司法院在這邊做一個說明沒關係你說明那個有關那個書面告誡這個部分其實當初在制度設計的時候這個內政部當時就是因為考慮到像剛才王逸川委員所提到的狀況因為有些狀況不明"},{"start":296.064,"end":314.225,"text":"那不明的時候你立刻就讓他申請保護令這個其實對於某一些模糊地帶的不管是青少年也會有問題書面告誡當時內政部可以理解啦也不是警察不是警方不是檢察官這邊申請法院就一定照他們的申請來"},{"start":315.446,"end":336.259,"text":"來做一個核准這個可以理解可是問題就是說我從剛剛那個比例來看的話似乎我們司法院這個地方跟警政組這個地方你們對那個整個法律間接你們要去做一個統一再跟委員報告說明一下委員做的這一張表這個保護令刑事處罰實際上是違反保護令罪"},{"start":337.319,"end":359.005,"text":"我們在根梢法保護法當初就已經犯罪化了也就是一開始符合構成要件的就有可能構成刑事犯罪那刑事犯罪跟這個書面告誡它是一個行政跟刑事的雙軌進行所以不會因為你發不發書面告誡或中間有空窗就導致說刑事的保護不足這個要先跟委員說明一下"},{"start":360.166,"end":384.686,"text":"對 那我要請教的就是說像以現在來看的話你執行到現在 我看這個六十七件的一個職權申請裡面很多可以按照職權來做一個申請那可是呢 看起來駁回的部分也不小那當社會大眾會去質疑說這樣對被害人的一個保護到底是不是充足"},{"start":385.273,"end":414.203,"text":"甚至於說你們跟警政署這個地方是不是應該有一個做一個我們當初在修法的時候希望有一個定期的一個會商的一個機制這部分你們有做嗎?還是你們認為你們比較權威?警政署我們那個順便告誡我們在認定上是刑事訴訟法裡面的任意處分他沒有什麼強制力"},{"start":415.353,"end":440.959,"text":"所以我們在受理發現這個被害者如果真的有危險的話我們可以申請預防性的質疑啊是啦 現在不是這個問題啊你們這樣子變成說你們現在在委員會裡面的詢答跟你們這個發出來在哀哀叫的又不太一樣你們動不動就把人家推給說 啊我們就有行情啊啊法官不要亂轉啊 你們說的話就會說到這裡去了啊你們現在說的又不一樣了咧"},{"start":445.27,"end":469.54,"text":"是不是這樣說?我的意思是說在這個期間,你這樣按照職權申請的部分,駁回這麼高啦很多也未必會按照你們的意思,法院本來就不一定是你們申請以後法院一定要去做一個核准你們就出了這些,你們比較挫折,你們的講法本來是如此"},{"start":473.109,"end":485.954,"text":"對 這個因為保護令的核准還是法院在核准所以他們認定有時候他會去比較嚴格當然我們去保護被害人的立場我們希望是能夠盡快而且能夠比較寬鬆一點的執行"},{"start":489.015,"end":514.189,"text":"當然啦 審查的標準這個部分是不是該有更一致的一個看法司法院這個地方確實是可以更精進啦因為不同的法官本來就常常會出現不同的一個看法這部分我希望司法院這個地方也可以對民眾有一個適度的一個回應啦好不好然後司法院請回那我繼續要來請教的警政署的部分就是說"},{"start":515.35,"end":527.341,"text":"在科技偵查我們常常碰到一些障礙你像譬如說有一些電話 你說王一川 看他就很好啊不然你打電話給他 打電話給他 打電話給他還是我用那個假帳號 叫你王一川 一直叫叫叫叫你去找臉書 臉書設定那十四種狀況那你真的要去追蹤的話像這種狀況的話 譬如說我來騷擾"},{"start":541.693,"end":561.118,"text":"王一川,像這種情形,不要說社會大眾,你偵查上就有很多的一個障礙,那像這一些,你們有什麼因應的策略跟技術的一個資源來提升整個執法的一個效率?聽到王一川他就緊緊地在看,你有沒有看?代表他這種困擾很多啦。現在其實這個,"},{"start":563.698,"end":579.443,"text":"網際網路的部分社群媒體這個部分在我們國內設定的時候像MetaMeta的部分它就是比較大部分現在都可以配合Line也是一樣但是如果說它是公司是設定在境外的"},{"start":580.283,"end":597.88,"text":"像這個WeChat或是像這個WhatsApp這些像新加坡他們在用的這些我們可能在調位上會有比較麻煩必須要充分溝通但是目前他還是盡量會依個案會來同意"},{"start":598.82,"end":616.614,"text":"回來同意 這已經進步了 已經越來越會配合了您這有回答 聽不回答 王一川不滿意啦好啦 時間的問題啦 請回答 這個偵查都還必須要精進主席 抱歉 再給我一點時間 因為今天是預算的一個解凍所以我必須要再請司法院副秘書長上來一下來 副秘書長"},{"start":619.107,"end":642.46,"text":"副院長我再請問就是說我們從2024年8月15號新制的一個上路這個我們法院跟地檢委託衛護部醫審會的鑑定的機制這個全面暫停這個部分其實很多的一個塞車的狀況非常嚴重那司法院你去因應的措施跟成效來看的話"},{"start":644.221,"end":670.282,"text":"你們現在在去年跟今年尤其是今年三月份你們也召開了多次的一個諮詢的會議你們現在推出了兩項措施就是說鑑定人具名跟拒絕可以彌封不提供閱覽然後鑑定人出庭客才遠距或者隔離筆錄免記載各自我要請教副秘書長就是說這兩項的一個措施是否真的可以提升鑑定的一個參與的意願跟實際的成效"},{"start":674.583,"end":690.144,"text":"跟委員報告就是說有關於這個議題其實大部分篩測是在那個偵查中那所以說那個相關的那個部會現在也有達成的一個共識就是說在偵查中的時候呢就那個因為他還不需要到嚴格的那個"},{"start":691.065,"end":717.695,"text":"證明的這個部分所以說就還不要需要就是要有那個鑑定人具名跟那個具節啊這是現在目前因為大部分七百多件都是在那個偵查中就是現在這樣子那個處理那到法院這一端來的時候那個件數就不會有這麼多了那法院除了採取就是以上這個措施之外呢我們也有就是在廣闢其他的就是除了醫審會之外現在目前有有很多的那個醫療機構"},{"start":719.336,"end":731.803,"text":"還有就是協會跟協會的那個單位那甚至像那個台大法醫研究所也都願意就是加入這個鑑定我等一下跟你問喔 是兩項啦一項你們就是說鑑定費用比較多第二項就是說那出庭的部分喔 也是一樣是500啦有的人根本就沒有那個意願上次你們是講說 事實上你們是表示說會提高專家的一個費用那這個部分我想 這個部分我們也已經做了"},{"start":748.766,"end":753.235,"text":"阿所以你們會具體 已經具體落實了?已經有 已經有 現在多少?這個我讓那個廳長來回覆"},{"start":756.806,"end":783.188,"text":"那有關於那個鑑定費用的部分我們把它改成雙階段的兩階段的鑑定費用知己方法就是原先的書面報告的部分那是一個鑑定費用如果有鑑定人要出席的話有出席的鑑定費用那個這部分的說明費用我們3000到10000那或者是有4000塊根據那衛福部的那個精神鑑定的部分的收費標準出席出庭說明鑑定報告費用的部分在一次是4000塊錢"},{"start":784.389,"end":804.834,"text":"那有見見是 五百變四千是 甚至我們用專家證人的自己標準的話可以三千到一萬根據那個詢問的內容時間 反應程度來做一個調整我有一個比較 最後一個問題就好了因為其他問題我不好意思沒有時間不敢站人家太久就是我們醫審會的決議跟你初見定的醫師意見不一致這個問題這個比較麻煩的就是說"},{"start":811.315,"end":834.23,"text":"你如果說非醫師背景的委員會做成結論這個很明顯就不太符合我們刑事訴訟法鑑定人專業資格的一個要求那你初見的醫師你不參與最後的決議也不具名也不拒絕然後他的意見其實常常都對於整個決議他有實質的一個影響力這個部分我不曉得副秘書長你怎麼看"},{"start":836.434,"end":861.286,"text":"其實那個醫審會這個部分呢他們那個成員三分之二以上也都是那個醫師那其他是社會公正人士譬如說有一些法學的刑法法學背景的這一些那個的人那所以說他們其實過去以來他們那個運作呢就是說最後在醫審會的時候其實都會經過一個很充分的一個討論對我們剛好可憐說你像譬如說"},{"start":862.789,"end":886.412,"text":"因為憲法法庭大法官會議解釋也常常會有不同意見書啊你像比如說你去註記那個不同意見的一個機制然後和出審的意見跟決議不同的時候然後附上不同意見書給檢察官或者法院去做一個參酌我就覺得這個方式也還不錯這個可能要依審會他們來討論決定對我覺得這個建議我在想什麼第一個想到就是想到這個"},{"start":887.557,"end":894.776,"text":"我覺得可以參考一下是好方法我是覺得好方法不一定會被採取但至少是一個方向之一好不好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":327,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時58分）謝謝主席，有請法務部黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。一個而已喔？"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一個就好。次長，剛才我走下來，吳宗憲委員給我「趖」了一下，你知道嗎？「趖」一下就表示他說的有一點心虛啦！其實你剛剛都沒有回應，但吳宗憲委員剛剛就是胡說八道，你知道嗎？開玩笑跟你講啦，就是說，其實國民黨自己本身內部沒有對好啦！","吳宗憲委員，因為我不喜歡別人不在場時批評別人，剛好你在場，我不要說糾正啦，給你提醒。2024年12月23號，你們的賴士葆委員講，現在中央給地方的部分，除了統籌稅款，還有一般補助款及計畫補助款，這比例占的也蠻多的，中央政府根本不需要重編總預算，只需要減少補助款就可以了。換言之，行政院只需要在補助款裡面減少三千多億，一切就能迎刃而解。這個是你們賴士葆委員講的啦！不好意思，你要走了吧，我怎麼會不知道，這樣你就知道了吧？也就是說，當初在野黨在砍總預算的時候，他們把總預算砍了，然後整個到最後不知道要砍什麼的時候，通刪又再砍一次，對不對？砍到跟你說要刪什麼隨便你啦，你自己去刪，我不會啦！一般性補助就是在整個總預算裡面，你把總預算給砍了，哪有什麼其他的東西叫行政院、中央政府再自己去找錢出來，這個是有一點強人所難啦，這個部分我做這樣的一個補充。好，次長請回。","接下來請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長，請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘書長好。我想整個跟騷法上路這三年，從零到有，確實踏出了關鍵一步，但是我們在三週年的此時所要討論的也不是只有好就好了，因為跟騷它不只是個人的問題，更是公共安全的延伸，我們很擔心制度的空隙就是下一個悲劇的溫床。我們看這部法的條文，現在看到的，大家好像認為只是在定義條文，其實真正的目的不是如此，我們當初是希望這部法令能變成人民安全守護的一個盾牌。現在我來做一些回顧，我們也一起來檢視這個制度的缺口。","我看到今天的報告裡面最主要是檢視這個法制的實施、成效，還有一些可能不足的地方，我們先來看這三年的成果，跟騷法所設計的這三道防線，其實當初那麼多人在呼籲，這三道防線是書面告誡、保護令及接下來的刑事處罰，我們來看一下相關數據：受理案件8,488件、開立書面告誡五千多件、違反告誡522件、家暴法保護令聲請1,979件、跟騷法保護令聲請412件、提告五千多件、移送4,531件。從這些數字裡面可以看得出來，就是從書面告誡到保護令核發之間有一個空窗的問題，對整個被害人來講的話，會形成一個保護的斷點。我想問的就是說，這個保護空窗期的實務問題以及我們如何去應對？從書面告誡到保護令核發需要經過一段時間，又怕這樣會釀成一個新案，我不曉得司法院對於發出書面告誡到保護令核發前，如何再去做更有效的保護作為？副秘書長，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，我請民事廳長回復這個比較專業的部分。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我請警政署的代表也一起上來。"],["林廳長俊廷：主席、委員。我代表司法院在這邊做個說明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒關係，你說明。"],["林廳長俊廷：有關書面告誡的部分，其實當初在制度設計的時候，內政部當時就是因為考慮到像剛才王義川委員所提到的狀況，因為有些是狀況不明，在狀況不明的時候立刻就讓他聲請保護令，這個其實對於某一些模糊地帶的，不管是青少年，也會有問題，書面告誡當時內政部在做……"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以理解啦，也不是警察、警方或檢察官提出聲請，法院就一定會照他們的聲請來做核准，這個可以理解啦，可是問題就是說，我從剛剛那個比例來看的話，似乎司法院跟警政署對於整個法律見解要去做一個統一。"],["林廳長俊廷：再跟委員報告、說明一下，委員所做簡報上的保護令到刑事處罰實際上是違反保護令罪，我們在跟騷法、保護法當初就已經是犯罪化了，也就是一開始符合構成要件的就有可能構成刑事犯罪，刑事犯罪跟書面告誡是一個行政跟刑事的雙軌進行，所以不會因為發不發書面告誡或中間有空窗就導致刑事的保護不足，這個要先跟委員說明一下。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，我要請教的就是說，以現在來看的話，執行到現在，我看到67件的職權聲請裡面，很多可以按照職權來做聲請，可是看起來駁回的部分也不少，社會大眾會質疑這樣對被害人的保護到底是不是充足，甚至於你們跟警政署是不是應該做一個……我們當初在修法的時候希望你們有定期會商的機制，這部分你們有做嗎？還是你們認為你們比較權威？請警政署說明。"],["詹副署長永茂：委員，有關書面告誡，我們在認定上是刑事訴訟法裡面的任意處分，也沒有什麼強制力，所以我們在受理時發現被害人如果真的有危險的話，我們可以聲請預防性的羈押。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！但是現在不是這個問題。這樣子變成你們現在在委員會裡面的詢答，跟你們發出來在哀哀叫的又不太一樣，你們動不動就推說你們都有聲請，是法官不核准，你們怎麼樣都會往這個方向說，你們現在在這裡說的又不一樣了，難道不是這樣？我的意思是，在這個期間，按照職權聲請的部分駁回這麼高，很多也未必會按照你們的意思，本來就不是你們聲請以後，法院一定要核准，你們遇到這種狀況比較挫折，你們的講法本來是如此。"],["詹副署長永茂：對，因為保護令還是法院在核准，他們有時候認定會比較嚴格，但是我們基於保護被害人的立場，我們希望是能夠儘快，而且能夠比較寬鬆一點的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然，審查標準是不是該有更一致的看法，司法院確實是可以更精進，因為不同的法官本來就常常會出現不同的看法，這部分我希望司法院可以對民眾有適度的回應，好不好？","我繼續要請教警政署的部分是，在科技偵查上常常碰到一些障礙，譬如有人討厭王義川，晚上就一直打電話給他，一直打、一直打，用公共電話打；或是我用假帳號去罵王義川，一直罵、罵、罵。你們去找臉書，臉書又設定那14種狀況，你真的要去追蹤的話……像這種狀況，不要說社會大眾，譬如我騷擾王義川這種情形，偵查上就有很多的障礙，對這一些你們有什麼因應的策略跟技術的資源來提升整個執法的效率？你看王義川，他現在睜大眼睛一直看，就代表他這種困擾很多。"],["詹副署長永茂：現在其實網際網路的部分、社群媒體的部分，在我們國內設定的時候，像Meta現在大部分都可以配合，LINE也是一樣。但是如果公司是設定在境外的，像WeChat、Threads，或是像WhatsApp，像這些新加坡在用的，我們可能在調閱上會比較麻煩，必須要充分溝通。但是目前還是儘量會依個案來同意，這個已經在進步了，已經越來越會配合了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們有回答等於沒回答，王義川不會滿意。偵查都必須要精進。主席不好意思，再給我一點時間，因為今天是預算的解凍，所以我必須再請司法院副秘書長上來一下。"],["主席：來，副秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘書長，我再請問，從2024年8月15號新制上路，法院跟地檢委託衛福部醫審會鑑定的機制全面暫停，其實很多塞車的狀況非常嚴重，以司法院因應的措施跟成效來看，去年跟今年，尤其是今年3月份，你們也召開了多次的諮詢會議，你們現在推出了兩項措施，鑑定人具名跟具結可以彌封，不提供閱覽，然後鑑定人出庭可採遠距或者隔離，筆錄免記載個資。我要請教副秘書長，這兩項的措施是否真的可以提升鑑定參與的意願跟實際的成效？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，有關於這個議題，其實大部分塞車的是在偵查中，所以相關部會現在也有達成一個共識，因為在偵查中的時候，還不需要嚴格證明，所以還不需要有鑑定人具名跟具結，目前因為七百多件大部分都是在偵查中，現在就是這樣子處理，到法院這一端來的時候，件數就不會有這麼多。法院除了採取以上措施之外，我們也有廣闢其他的單位，除了醫審會之外，目前也有很多的醫療機構，還有協會跟協會的單位，甚至像臺大法醫研究所也都願意加入鑑定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我上次問你，是兩項。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一項你們是說鑑定費用比較低；第二項，出庭的部分是500，有的人根本就沒有意願。上次你們說，司法院會提高專家的費用，這個部分……"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們也已經做了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們已經具體落實了？"],["王副秘書長梅英：已經有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在多少？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個我讓廳長來回復。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好，有關於鑑定費用的部分，我們改成兩階段的鑑定費用支給方法，就是原先書面報告的部分是一個鑑定費用，如果有鑑定人要出席的話，有出席的鑑定費用，這部分的說明費用有3,000到1萬，或者是有4,000塊，根據衛福部精神鑑定部分的收費標準，出庭說明鑑定報告費用的部分，一次是4,000塊錢，由鑑定……"],["莊委員瑞雄：500變4,000？"],["李廳長釱任：是，甚至我們用專家證人的支給標準，可以是3,000到1萬，根據詢問的內容、時間和繁易程度來調整。以上。"],["莊委員瑞雄：最後一個問題就好，因為其他問題，我不好意思，沒有時間不敢占用太久。有關醫審會的決議跟初鑑定醫師意見不一致的問題，這個比較麻煩的是，如果非醫師背景的委員會做成結論，這個很明顯就不太符合我們刑事訴訟法鑑定人專業資格的要求，初鑑的醫師不參與最後的決議，不具名也不具結，然而他的意見其實常常都對於整個決議有實質的影響力，這個部分我不曉得副秘書長怎麼看？"],["王副秘書長梅英：其實醫審會他們成員三分之二以上也都是醫師，其他是社會公正人士，譬如說有一些刑法、法學背景的人，所以過去以來的運作，最後在醫審會其實都會經過很充分地討論。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們有沒有可能這樣？譬如憲法法庭大法官會議解釋常常會有不同意見書，比如去註記不同意見的機制，當初審醫師的意見跟決議不同的時候，附上不同意見書給檢察官或者法院去參酌，我就覺得這個方式也還不錯！"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個可能要醫審會他們討論、決定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得我在這裡想一想，我第一個就想到這個建議，我覺得可以參考一下。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好方法，我真的覺得是好方法，不一定會被採取，但至少是方向之一，好不好？謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員。","接下來請沈發惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}},{"id":"161905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a9eb0b63442cc9673ee4a52ea614c3ed7d00acb659e6b7ab0d9cc7248204e3c0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:01:54 - 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有請部長 謝謝來 部長請"},{"start":14.19,"end":35.458,"text":"今天因為蠻多人在問無人機拍攝在小紅書上面的影片我不針對這個內容因為剛剛前面大概都已經回答過了但我這邊比較有疑慮的事情是說因為這件事情大概幾天前發生的嘛那發生的時候當然這個國人對此有疑慮所以記者其實很快就拿來問"},{"start":37.016,"end":54.308,"text":"問了以後其實那個時候我有先問國防部就是針對這件事情的回應但是並沒有很快得到解答所以就變成說我們在晚間新聞的時候我們就只好自己先來看畫面然後確認到底有沒有無人機的拍攝還是衛星中間有沒有AI然後甚至裡面"},{"start":54.758,"end":72.644,"text":"那個圖裡面有沒有錯誤就針對這一個來針對媒體回答但我覺得這樣並不是一個很正常的事情就在於說照理說這件事情回答的第一時間在不管是晚間那一定是那個傍晚嘛就是晚間新聞的時候應該是由國防部來說明而不是由我來說明"},{"start":72.864,"end":100.212,"text":"所以就是說針對這件事情不知道未來因為這一件認知作戰或者相關的威脅又或者說合成的影片又或者真的可能會有拍攝就是說針對這一些訊息我們不需要國防部鉅細靡遺的告訴國人因為這裡面可能牽涉很多互相的攻防但有時候會有一個比較general的回應就是在於說這件事情我們目前掌握到什麼樣的程度然後未來我們可能會在哪裡需要加強是不是針對這一點請部長說明一下"},{"start":103.109,"end":119.33,"text":"我想委員的指教是正確的啦我想我們會以後碰到這個狀況我們會盡速的來做出回應因為我怕說這個以後可能會越來越多像最近不只只有這些像最近可能在網路上也有很多就是說這個"},{"start":120.811,"end":145.177,"text":"說跟中國同意沒有什麼不好啊什麼等等之類的這跟國防部沒有直接的關係但很明顯就是有可能對方在做類似的這種網軍的操作那這種操作呢有時候第一時間假設未來開始跟國防有關的時候有可能需要國防部越來越經常性的出來回應那有些可能是國安就可能需要國安局那這個部分我覺得是蠻重要的那另外也有一點就是剛剛前面也有人問過就是中科院針對這一個"},{"start":146.717,"end":163.94,"text":"無人機的侵擾之前在之前質詢的時候就有提到2023年可能會有一定的這些預警的雷達或什麼等等之類的一個方案那個期程因為剛剛羅委員問過了所以我就不多問但我想問另外一個也是跟這個比較有關係的跟剛剛那個議題其實有關就是"},{"start":165.141,"end":186.439,"text":"這個把雞的上面這個接收器的晶片疑似有中國製那我現在先不管說它內容到底這個如何或者說到底有沒有中國製這個問題現在有一個狀況跟剛剛有點類似就是在於說其實有好幾次上次我們在問的時候也是就是國防部有主動清查因為場上真的非常多那主動清查之後呢發現有中國製"},{"start":187.6,"end":213.755,"text":"然後中國製之後請他要改善等等之類的常常會有這樣的一些狀況但常常都會是媒體報導之後然後國防部才出來說的確這個是我們已經有清查過的清查過的時候所以當時有發現所以有請他改善所以會不會針對類似像這樣的事情是不是也有一個改進的空間就是在於說如果今天是有國防部主動他本來就已經發現的他已經清查的他其實可以主動直接跟國人說明"},{"start":214.155,"end":214.355,"text":"這個我們可以來"},{"start":239.669,"end":260.595,"text":"討論一下就是說委員的意思應該是說即使在這個事情還沒有被報導之前我們就主動的來說明這件事情這樣就對了對因為我覺得其實有時候有發生錯誤廠商有問題等等之類的或者內控的控管沒有嚴格這些其實有錯誤都沒有關係像今天軍備局的這個報告我有看到他就講說我們現在發現我們有哪幾項錯誤"},{"start":263.556,"end":290.675,"text":"所以我們這些錯誤來做相關的改正其實我覺得這是一個很健康的態度就是說本來我們就是要滾動式的針對這些事情來做修正那如果說因為是標準不明結果發生了問題又或者說今天是標準明確結果是廠商的問題不同的種類如果國防部先出來說明的話就不用一直來應對媒體這樣的一個又有人出來爆料又可能是廠商可能沒有得標的以後結果跑出來又要爆料一些事物那這個會沒完沒了啦"},{"start":291.497,"end":296.542,"text":"這個有關於紅火一把雞這個事情向您做個報告第一個我們在這個微博報導之後我們有針對他報導的這個RF接收機和相關的晶片第一個我們詢問的廠商我首先報告我們這個的採購的契約裡面就強調禁止使用中國的"},{"start":315.84,"end":345.22,"text":"製造的相關內部的元件或是錄製品那第二個我們詢問了廠商之後他是說他不是使用那但是我們也把相關的電子元件目前全部拆解送到專案的實驗室去進行檢查那在檢查出來之後我會向委員做個報告OK好那這個我們再來說明那這個就不一樣因為這個就是他是報導了之後呢就有去問但是他可能不是那不是之後還要再送進一步的檢驗那就不是我剛剛講的這個情形嘛"},{"start":346.08,"end":370.336,"text":"好那接下來因為這個最近有些駭客活動越來越多但是因為這個是比較長期性的問題那今天跟解凍有關所以我問下一個跟這個跟預算比較有關的就是說因為4月1號的時候就已經有說這一個加薪那等一下可能請部長講一下就是4月1號這個公佈之後對於這個國軍他的士氣等等的影響"},{"start":371.036,"end":386.241,"text":"但另外我只想追問一個小問題就是說我在去年11月13號的時候有在問就是這個休假補助費因為現在就會有假都休不完的問題那假都休不完呢用加班費不太合適尤其是國軍現在的這個狀況"},{"start":387.961,"end":410.695,"text":"所以我記得之前嘉賓委員其實也有問過就是休假補助費那因為2024年的時候這個人事總署應該2023、2023就有說要從寬來做一個認定那因為我前陣子問國防部的回應是說就有可能這個休不完的假可能要累積到明年但是如果這樣子的話因為我們都知道如果今年休不完的假累積到明年明年也一定也休不完"},{"start":411.275,"end":439.455,"text":"那但是這會牽扯到預算因為如果用休假補助金的方式一人就算一天用一千來算那這個如果說用自願一五萬人來算這個金額也不小一億以內啦但它也是一定的金額所以就這個問題因為之前有說三個月之內希望有一個方案那是不是之後可以來這一個辦公室我們再來討論一下就是休假補助金這件事情我們應該要怎麼處理那這邊先請部長想要跟國人說明一下就是四月一號這個加薪之後目前來講這個狀況如何"},{"start":441.728,"end":458.861,"text":"四月要加薪之後我到基層去做一些訪視的時候可以感覺到他們對這個加薪都非常的有感覺因為這個加薪的幅度以資源一加上戰鬥部隊的"},{"start":460.198,"end":477.964,"text":"這個加薪的程度來講,我覺得現在都有一定相當程度的成長,像我手上現在的資料如果你以戰鬥部隊來講,以一個二兵來講,如果他現在以志願役的勤務加級加上戰鬥部隊的加級來看的話"},{"start":478.944,"end":498.115,"text":"惡兵大概都有到五萬四千一百五十塊錢所以我想應該是有感的至於那個加班的那個委員好一些數據先跟委員做個說明就是我們在十月一號加薪之後到目前為止就是報退五"},{"start":498.635,"end":528.555,"text":"有600多個人抽回來那不釋服的部分也有87個他已經報不釋服但是在加薪之後他又把他抽回來也就是說在留營跟不釋服的這個部分都已經有成效那在招募的部分在第三批社慶的招募也比去年同期增加600多人這是首先跟委員報告那有關那個休假的部分我們現在已經在研擬就是不休假剛剛委員講的我們已經研擬完了那後續找時間再去跟委員辦公室"},{"start":528.575,"end":538.009,"text":"公司做說明好 謝謝齁好 那謝謝局部長好 謝謝主席好 謝謝昭偉齁這個不釋服了加了薪就釋服了這個其實要研究一下看他不釋服到底什麼原因"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":260,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：來，部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：是，沈委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。今天因為滿多人詢問小紅書上面關於無人機拍攝的影片，我不針對這個內容，因為剛剛前面大概都已經回答過了，但我這邊比較有疑慮的事情是，因為這件事情大概是幾天前發生的，發生的時候，當然國人對此有疑慮，所以記者其實很快就拿來問，拿來問了以後，其實那個時候我有先問國防部針對這件事情的回應，但是並沒有很快得到解答，所以就變成我們在晚間新聞的時候只好自己先看畫面，確認到底有沒有無人機的拍攝還是衛星，中間有沒有AI，甚至那個圖裡面有沒有錯誤，就針對這一個來針對媒體回答。但我覺得這樣並不是一個很正常的事情，照理說這件事情回答的第一時間……我那天是在傍晚，就是晚間新聞時應該由國防部說明，而不是由我來說明。針對這件事情，不知道未來……因為這一件認知作戰或者相關的威脅，又或者說合成的影片，又或者真的可能有拍攝，針對這些訊息，我們不需要國防部鉅細靡遺的告訴國人，因為這裡面可能牽涉很多互相的攻防，但有時候會有一個比較general的回應，就是這件事情我們目前掌握到什麼樣的程度，然後未來我們在哪裡可能會需要加強。針對這一點是不是請部長說明？"],["顧部長立雄：我想委員的指教是正確的，以後碰到這個狀況，我們會儘速做出回應。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我怕這個以後可能會越來越多，最近不是只有這些，像最近可能在網路上也有很多說跟中國統一沒有什麼不好什麼等等之類的，這跟國防部沒有直接的關係，但很明顯有可能對方在做類似網軍的操作。這種操作有時候第一時間，假設未來開始跟國防有關的時候，有可能需要國防部越來越經常性的出來回應，有些可能是國安，就可能需要國安局，這個部分我覺得滿重要的。","另外也有一點，剛剛前面也有人問過，就是中科院針對無人機的侵擾，之前在質詢的時候就有提到，2023年可能會有一定的這些如預警雷達或什麼等等之類的一個方案，那個期程因為剛剛羅委員問過，所以我就不多問。但我想問另外一個也是跟這個比較有關係的，跟剛剛那個議題其實有關，就是靶機上面接收器的晶片疑似有中國製，現在先不管它內容到底如何，或者到底有沒有中國製的問題，現在有一個狀況跟剛剛有點類似，就是其實有好幾次，上次我們在問的時候也是，國防部有主動清查，因為廠商真的非常多，主動清查之後發現有中國製，請它要改善等等之類的，常常會有這樣的一些狀況，但常常都會是媒體報導之後，國防部才出來說：的確，這個我們已經有清查過了，當時有發現，有請它改善。針對類似像這樣的事情是不是也有一個改進的空間？如果今天是由國防部主動，它本來就已經發現了，它已經清查了，它其實可以主動直接跟國人說明，它不用等到媒體都特別出來報導說疑似有中資、疑似有中國零件，然後就變成在這個場合裡，國防部再來回應。但我不是在講這件事情，我說這個衍生的相關事項，以後是不是有可能比較提早跟國人說明，這樣就不用一直被動的挨打？"],["顧部長立雄：這個我們可以討論一下，委員的意思應該是，即使在這個事情還沒有被報導之前，我們就主動說明這件事情。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為我覺得其實有時候有發生錯誤，廠商有問題等等之類的，或者內控的控管沒有嚴格，這些有錯誤其實都沒有關係。像我看到今天軍備局的報告，它說我們現在發現有哪幾項錯誤，所以我們針對這些錯誤做相關的改正。我覺得這是一個很健康的態度，針對這些事情本來就是要滾動式的修正。如果因為標準不明發生了問題，又或者說今天是標準明確，結果是廠商的問題，這是不同的種類，如果國防部先出來說明的話，就不用一直來應對媒體這樣的一個行為，喔！又有人出來爆料，也有可能是廠商沒有得標以後，結果跑出來要爆料一些事務，這個就會沒完沒了。靶機的部分也請說明一下，謝謝。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，有關「紅火蟻」靶機這件事情向您做個報告，第一個，我們在媒播報導之後，有針對它報導的RF接收機和相關的晶片，第一個，我們詢問了廠商……更正，我首先報告，我們這個採購契約裡面就強調，禁止使用中國製造的相關內部元件或是陸製品；第二個，我們詢問了廠商之後，它說它不是使用，但是我們目前也把相關的電子元件全部拆解，送到專案的實驗室進行檢查，在檢查出來之後，我會向委員做個報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，這個我們再來說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：那這個就不一樣，因為這個是報導了之後就去問，但是它可能不是，所以還要再送進一步的檢驗，那就不是我剛剛講的這個情形。","接下來，最近有一些駭客活動越來越多，但是因為這個是比較長期性的問題，今天是跟解凍有關，所以我問下一個跟預算比較有關的。4月1號的時候就已經有說要加薪了，等一下可能請部長講一下，就是4月1號公布之後，對於國軍士氣等等的影響。另外我只想追問一個小問題，我在去年11月13號的時候有在問休假補助費，因為現在會有假都休不完的問題，假都休不完了，用加班費不太合適，尤其是國軍現在的這個狀況。我記得之前鍾佳濱委員其實也有問過休假補助費的問題，因為2023年人事行政總處就有說要從寬認定。我前陣子問國防部，其回應是休不完的假有可能要累積到明年。我們都知道今年休不完的假累積到明年，明年一定也休不完，但是這會牽扯到預算，如果用休假補助金的方式，一人就算一天用1,000來算，如果用志願役5萬人來算，這個金額也不小，大概1億以內，但也是一定的金額。就這個問題，之前有說希望三個月之內有一個方案，是不是之後可以來辦公室，我們再來討論一下關於休假補助金這件事情應該要怎麼處理？這邊想要先請部長跟國人說明一下，4月1號加薪之後，目前的狀況如何？"],["顧部長立雄：4月1號加薪之後，我到基層去做一些訪視，可以感覺到他們對這個加薪都非常有感覺，因為加薪的幅度，以志願役加上戰鬥部隊的加薪程度來講，我覺得現在都有相當程度的成長。像我手上現在的資料，如果是戰鬥部隊，以一個二兵來講，如果是志願役的勤務加給加上戰鬥部隊的加給，大概都有到54,150塊錢，所以我想應該是有感的，至於加班……"],["劉次長沛智：委員好。一些數據先跟委員做個說明，我們在4月1號加薪之後，到目前為止，報退伍的有六百多個人抽回來，不適服的也有87個已經報不適服，但是在加薪之後又把它抽回來，也就是在留營跟不適服的部分都已經有成效。招募的部分，第三梯的社青招募也比去年同期增加六百多人，這是首先要跟委員報告的。","有關休假的部分，我們現在已經在研擬，針對剛剛委員講的，我們已經研擬完了，後續再找時間到委員辦公室說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝召委，對於不適服的加了薪就適服了，這個其實要研究一下，看他不適服的原因到底是什麼。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋）：好，謝謝。","現在請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-17","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","王定宇","徐巧芯","林楚茵","鄭天財Sra 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我們請彭部長來 請彭部長"},{"start":11.895,"end":40.532,"text":"邱委員好部長我想請教一下我們行政院的總預算編給地方的一般性補助款那總額當然是2501億那這個項目在立法院當然是沒有完全沒有刪除但是現在我們行政院違法砍了地方的一般性補助款高達27%我就想請問一下部長那這個部分對我們地方上對環境部推動的政策會不會影響"},{"start":42.417,"end":60.436,"text":"本部是目前沒有太大的影響但是明年財劃法修正之後其實我們部的預算可能會有一些會減少我也擔心會受到一些影響我們先不講財劃法先講一般性補助款那我認為這個部分你認為對我們地方在執行環境部的業務的時候不會影響嗎"},{"start":61.096,"end":88.796,"text":"今年不影響就今年我們不補助給地方的我們會如期把它完成所以你們是環境部這部分是沒有動就對了對對對但是27%你們沒有去我們沒有你們沒有去刪減嘛對對對因為我們看到這樣子的話我擔心地方的這些環境我們在推動那些政策都會受到影響那如果說這樣子是沒有沒有是最好那當然我相信就是我們的部長"},{"start":90.797,"end":115.509,"text":"在這樣的一個議題之下能夠堅持這個是非常棒的因為就像我們苗栗的焚化爐一樣你當初的是BOT案BOT案然後後來如果這個受到影響的話那勢必會影響到我們焚化爐的運作那可能會影響到其他縣市垃圾的處理那當然部長能夠這樣子我們非常的欣慰謝謝委員"},{"start":116.73,"end":141.862,"text":"那當然我再請教一下剛剛我們清輝委員講的你說呼籲要盡量用這個少用這個廢發電那鯉魚市當然是移動污染源的PM2.5比火力發電還要高那我要說我們交通污染當然是很嚴重但不然你沒辦法承認嘛那目前台灣的能源結構當中火力發電佔比是一直都是超過這個八成"},{"start":142.802,"end":166.305,"text":"那在非核家園的第一天高達92%那因為火力發電的空屋排放量非常大而且是集中的再加上地形的關係不容易散去那一些研究資料像國建署還有台大公衛支都顯示火力發電廠附近的居民的氣喘肺癌心肺疾病風險明顯提高"},{"start":167.25,"end":182.141,"text":"那用廢發電這個詞在中南部受污染的民眾是他是真實的感受啦那我想政府的能源政策下的悲劇也是人民對空污絕對無力的控訴但部長你一直要用這個移動污染源來幫火力發電漂白"},{"start":183.001,"end":199.111,"text":"是不是能源政策上的佈局加上政治的壓力所以你要這樣出來背書啊包委員沒有啦因為我們其實花了很多時間半年做了一個這個空品白皮書那其實我們也跟很多專家學者討論其實我們發現台灣的例如說造成PM2.5的污染源"},{"start":199.751,"end":219.261,"text":"有很多剛剛講的固定汙染源固定汙染源包含工廠還有發電業那移動汙染源我們的汽機車或是老舊的車子它也會排放很多的廢氣或是說高速公路旁邊等等或是說我們家裡面生活的這個益善源例如說我們家裡面有時候煮菜或是生活上面的習慣也會造成PM2.5其實我們發現為什麼我們"},{"start":220.802,"end":237.265,"text":"空污減量可是我們的癌症的篩的比例還持續的上升這一定有一些落差的存在所以我們是希望說能夠從民眾健康的角度來把空污的問題解決所以就是不是只有一個固定污染源的問題還有其他各種的污染源我們都要一起來檢討"},{"start":238.266,"end":265.111,"text":"那目前現在最大宗看起來就是火力發電嗎其實它有很多啦不見得是只有火力發電還有別的那火力發電算大嗎火力發電它是其中之一但不是最大的例如說我們的移動最大你認為是汽車移動污染源的部分當然那個是加起來多因為有的是一根比較多那我們現在是不是碰到問題一個我們就要解決一個嘛對不對所以部長您支持這個火力發電繼續一直持續還是說繼續擴大"},{"start":266.571,"end":290.723,"text":"還是要縮減基本上把燃煤能夠盡量的減少這是最好的那目前我們有沒有什麼計畫這個是屬於台電他的規劃那目前我們國家的淨零的規劃在2030年的時候我們的這個燃煤大概只剩下我記得是9%左右能夠從現在的大概是在2030年就希望足夠的減少那剩下幾年 剩下不在五年還要五年 對那五年內你要做什麼"},{"start":291.643,"end":320.329,"text":"五年內裡面第一個是再生能源照經濟部能源署的規劃再生能源在2030年希望可以到30%那這個部分就可以用你認為達得到嗎如果現在離岸風電那個方面如果能夠起來的話就有機會但是我必須說台灣的各種能源都面臨到還蠻大的挑戰五年之內你相信我都不再相信了對不對這個要努力啦因為每個國家都面臨到能源轉型的問題"},{"start":321.428,"end":350.888,"text":"不然你是少數在政府體系當中還是秉持專業立場的部會首長這點我要跟你肯定那當然對外界也對你有比較高的期待所以我希望你不要用就是就是希望說好好的做事情那請你繼續堅守你環境部的專業底線該做的該講的我希望你還是要講因為我發現我們台灣現在的問題我們其實最大的污染源是來自於行政院我希望你環境部不要被污染"},{"start":354.849,"end":378.378,"text":"那另外根據環境部的統計營建工程的噪音成型比例高達兩成那工地施工的噪音會造成民眾生活中很大的一個困擾尤其是連續性的有時候就是尖銳的有時候因為它的頻率不是很正常的那這樣會讓人家很煩嘛那環境部目前還在討論要把這個聲音照相"},{"start":379.298,"end":394.839,"text":"技術用於這個營建工程噪音監測的階段那這個要怎麼做包委員這個我們明天早上明天會有一個研討會就是我們請到像日本日本其實有些工地其實他已經用到比較低噪音也低空汙的方式來進行"},{"start":395.7,"end":424.671,"text":"那台灣其實現在我必須坦承因為我以前也住在很多都更的房偏齁那真的是產生活品質非常非常的差啦那我們希望能夠藉由國際的案例能夠能夠重新再定義出台灣有沒有因為那個我們希望營建的這個營造業者他能夠採聚用這種國外比較好的一個先進的方式低噪音或是低空汙的方式來進行所以我們還在找一些新的方式來進行所以我們明天會有一個研討會就來討論這個意思那這部分有沒有這個具體的一個時程表"},{"start":425.331,"end":442.843,"text":"目前我們是希望能夠第一個是先找到國際有什麼好的案例然後我們會開始獎勵獎勵例如說好的我們給他獎勵給他認證那慢慢的就會產生出這種好的就可以願意做的更多日本當然他現在的還有一些國家的先進經驗對這部分當然有已經有做規範"},{"start":445.325,"end":466.599,"text":"那當然我也贊同這個做法就是說在這個明天公聽會嘛在這個事情還沒有確定之前我們有沒有什麼比較具體的做法來去減少這樣的一個這個噪音的發生如果說真的是公因為我們目前工地如果要整個都更要拆除其實用的重機具其實"},{"start":467.84,"end":490.518,"text":"目前都是還蠻老舊的而且那個沒有辦法解決而且那我們現在只能用在這種只能在上班時間去處理晚上影響到民眾生活作息的就不能夠去處理這個有很明確的嚴格的一個規範那至於說他能不能真的在減量用更好的機具低污染的機具因為有些那個重機具他其實都是燒柴油的其實對附近的空氣污染也是蠻嚴重的"},{"start":491.519,"end":495.212,"text":"好,那部長希望這個事情盡快啦好,我們盡快有一個時間表好,謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":509,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時59分）主席好，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我想請教一下，行政院的總預算編給地方的一般性補助款總額大概是2,501億，這個項目在立法院當然是完全沒有刪除，但是現在行政院違法砍了地方的一般性補助款高達27%，我就想請問一下部長，這個部分對我們地方在推動環境部的政策上會不會有影響？"],["彭部長啓明：本部目前是沒有太大的影響啦，但是明年財劃法修正之後，其實我們部的預算可能有一些會減少，我也擔心會受到一些影響。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們先不講財劃法，先講一般性補助款，關於這個部分，你認為對我們地方在執行環境部的業務的時候不會受到影響嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：今年不影響，就是今年我們部補助給地方的，我們會如期把它完成，如果這個預算可以解凍的話。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們環境部這部分是沒有凍就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對，但是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：一般性補助款那27%你們沒有去刪減嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：我們沒有、我們沒有，對、對、對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們看到這樣子的話，我擔心地方在推動環境部的一些政策都會受到影響，如果沒有的話是最好。當然我相信我們部長在這樣的一個議題之下能夠堅持，這是非常棒的，因為就像我們苗栗的焚化爐一樣，當初是BOT案，如果這個部分有受到影響的話，勢必會影響到我們焚化爐的運作，可能會影響到其他縣市垃圾的處理，當然部長能夠這樣子做，我們非常的欣慰。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請教一下，關於剛剛我們菁徽委員講的，你呼籲要儘量少用「用肺發電」，理由當然是移動污染源的PM2.5比火力發電還要高，我要說的是，我們交通污染當然很嚴重，但部長你沒辦法不承認嘛，目前臺灣的能源結構當中，火力發電占比一直都是超過八成，在非核家園的第一天高達九成二、92%，因為火力發電的空污排放量非常大，而且是集中的，再加上地形的關係，不容易散去，像國健署還有臺大公衛等單位的研究資料顯示，火力發電廠附近居民的氣喘、肺癌、心肺疾病風險明顯提高，「用肺發電」這個詞對中南部受污染的民眾來說，是他們真實的感受。我想政府的能源政策下的悲劇，也是人民對空污覺得無力的控訴，但部長你一直要用移動污染源來幫火力發電漂白，是不是能源政策上的布局，加上政治的壓力，所以你要這樣出來背書？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，沒有啦！因為我們其實花了很多時間、半年做了一個空品白皮書，我們也跟很多專家學者討論，其實我們發現臺灣……例如說造成PM2.5的污染源有很多，剛才講的固定污染源，固定污染源也包含工廠還有發電業，而移動污染源則包含我們的汽機車或是老舊的車子，它也會排放很多廢氣，或是說高速公路旁邊等等，或是說我們家裡面生活的逸散源，例如我們家裡面有時候煮菜或是生活上面的習慣，也會造成PM2.5。我們發現為什麼我們空污減量，可是我們癌症篩出的比例還持續的上升，這一定有一些落差存在，所以我們希望能夠從民眾健康的角度來把空污的問題解決，所以就是不是只有一個固定污染源的問題，還有其他各種的污染源，我們都要一起來檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前看起來最大宗就是火力發電？"],["彭部長啓明：其實有很多，不見得只有火力發電，還有別的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那火力發電算大嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：火力發電是其中之一，但不是最大的，例如我們的移動污染源……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你認為是汽車、移動污染源的部分？"],["彭部長啓明：當然那個是加起來多，有的是一根比較多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們現在是不是碰到一個問題就要解決一個？"],["彭部長啓明：當然、當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以部長您支持火力發電一直持續、繼續擴大還是要縮減？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，把燃煤能夠儘量的減少，這是最好的，因為這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前我們有沒有什麼計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是屬於台電的規劃，目前我們國家淨零的規劃，在2030年的時候，我們的燃煤大概只剩下，我記得是9%左右，能夠從現在的大概……"],["邱委員鎮軍：2030年？"],["彭部長啓明：就希望逐步減少……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在剩下不到5年。"],["彭部長啓明：還有5年。"],["邱委員鎮軍：5年內你要做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：在5年內裡面，第一個是再生能源，照經濟部能源署的規劃，再生能源在2030年希望可以到30%，這個部分就可以用……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你認為達得到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果現在離岸風電各方面能夠起來的話就有機會，但是我必須說，臺灣的各種能源都面臨到還滿大的挑戰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，5年之內，你相信，我都不太相信，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要努力、要努力啦，因為每個國家都面臨到能源轉型的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，你是少數在政府體系當中還是秉持專業立場的部會首長，這一點我要肯定你。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然外界也對你有比較高的期待，所以我希望你能夠好好的做事情，請你繼續堅守環境部的專業底線，該做的、該講的，我希望你還是要講，因為我發現我們臺灣現在的問題，我們其實最大的污染源是來自於行政院，我希望環境部不要被污染，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會，謝謝、謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，根據環境部的統計，營建工程的噪音陳情比例高達二成，工地施工的噪音會造成民眾生活中很大的困擾，尤其是連續性的，有時候是尖銳的，有時候它的頻率不是很正常的，這樣會讓人家很煩，環境部目前還在討論要把聲音照相技術用於營建工程噪音監測的階段，這個要怎麼做？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，明天我們會有一個研討會，我們有請到日本等等，日本其實有些工地已經採用比較低噪音、低空污的方式來進行，而臺灣現在，其實我必須坦承，因為我以前也住在很多都更的旁邊，那真的是生活品質非常非常差，我們希望藉由國際的案例能夠重新再定義出臺灣有沒有……因為我們希望營建的營造業者能夠採用國外比較好的、先進的方式，低噪音或是低空污的方式來進行，所以我們還在找一些新的方式來進行，我們明天會有個研討會就來討論這個議題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這部分有沒有具體的時程表？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們是希望，第一個是先找到國際有什麼好的案例，然後我們會開始獎勵，例如說好的我們給他獎勵、給他認證，慢慢的就會產生出好的就願意做得更多，我們其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：日本還有一些國家的先進經驗，對這個部分已經有做規範，當然我也贊同這個作法，明天要開公聽會，在這個事情還沒有確定之前，我們有沒有什麼比較具體的作法來減少這樣的噪音發生？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們目前的工地，如果整個都更要拆除的話，其實目前用的重機具都是滿老舊的，而且沒有辦法解決，我們現在只能在上班時間去處理，晚上會影響到民眾生活作息的就不能夠去處理，這個有很明確的、嚴格的規範，至於說他能不能真的再減量、用更好的機具、低污染的機具？因為有些重機具都是燒柴油的，其實對附近的空氣污染也是滿嚴重的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，希望這個事情能夠儘快有一個時間表。"],["彭部長啓明：好，我會來努力，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長。","委員會在這邊作以下宣告：我們等蘇清泉召委詢答結束之後休息10分鐘。","接下來請王育敏委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161903","url":"https: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上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現 哇 晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒燒到95%我剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮 陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後"},{"start":42.279,"end":68.24,"text":"5月22 5月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢"},{"start":70.05,"end":91.118,"text":"報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書"},{"start":91.998,"end":120.857,"text":"其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比"},{"start":121.778,"end":149.246,"text":"根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題"},{"start":150.106,"end":160.766,"text":"但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用"},{"start":162.112,"end":183.411,"text":"說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據"},{"start":185.252,"end":193.715,"text":"剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQ Air的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名韓國59香港63菲律賓74新加坡94俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污"},{"start":205.117,"end":231.887,"text":"好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物 氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40% 流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5"},{"start":233.327,"end":253.737,"text":"報告委員第一個IQ Air它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除像日本 韓國 先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器"},{"start":254.717,"end":268.453,"text":"對 不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本屋苑的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值"},{"start":269.794,"end":291.71,"text":"第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5"},{"start":294.272,"end":321.118,"text":"大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所有的改變"},{"start":322.211,"end":342.324,"text":"我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣"},{"start":343.464,"end":363.919,"text":"所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析"},{"start":364.94,"end":370.843,"text":"他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來"},{"start":382.509,"end":388.512,"text":"所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的Premature Death這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露"},{"start":405.302,"end":422.121,"text":"這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經"},{"start":426.075,"end":441.656,"text":"偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊"},{"start":443.317,"end":463.281,"text":"我是講說我們空汙的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空汙改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實"},{"start":466.522,"end":483.205,"text":"可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源"},{"start":483.868,"end":508.383,"text":"但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有 基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘 它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛 增加慢性咽喉炎"},{"start":513.818,"end":541.314,"text":"其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定"},{"start":541.374,"end":569.079,"text":"其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一"},{"start":569.679,"end":586.687,"text":"可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲"},{"start":595.491,"end":617.579,"text":"是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊"},{"start":618.599,"end":632.829,"text":"我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民"},{"start":645.558,"end":673.507,"text":"所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生"},{"start":674.347,"end":694.459,"text":"我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標"},{"start":695.239,"end":714.032,"text":"最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸"},{"start":717.634,"end":724.596,"text":"可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者"},{"start":733.379,"end":748.27,"text":"那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎"},{"start":751.532,"end":778.383,"text":"對 包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝 那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":780.339,"end":780.602,"text":"好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時46分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，上禮拜5月17日我們正式進入了非核家園，有心的網友上網看就會發現哇！晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒，燒到95%，我剛好這個周末是跑高雄的行程，所以到大寮、林園跟這些鄉親聊天，發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17日非核家園上路之後，5月22日、5月23日就馬上有吹哨者爆料興達電廠又偷偷的在開機、燒煤。對比上禮拜你跟大家講的，臺灣的空氣品質只輸日本，然後請大家少用「用肺發電」的這個詞，其實高雄人也會想問你，如果不是用肺發電，你現在覺得如何解讀我們是用什麼發電呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我上禮拜在行政院的記者會有特別解釋我們的空污從103年全臺平均的24微克，降到去年的12.8，其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源，而且還在增加當中，還有很多生活的。加上我們前一陣子有一個空品政策白皮書，其實裡面有很多的內容，所以我是特別強調，當然我們希望用煤發電能夠越少越好，但是其實各種空污的減量也要一起來做。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我想問一下，您的數據是不是把臺灣好幾個觀測站去平均？因為對高雄人來說，你拿高雄的、臺中的數據去跟臺東的數據平均，最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本、香港來比，根本就不合理，也不公平啊！"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們拿到日本或是韓國，我們都是拿國家的報告，他們國家也都會將所有站做一個平均，當然我們裡面也有東部的站，東部的站PM2.5大概8或9，的確是比較低。基本上每一個國家用整個……因為我們談的是整個國家的平均，不是說一個站，我當然知道的確高雄PM2.5平均還有到15左右，所以我也知道這個問題，但是我們講的是國家的一個政策，就很像我們國人的GDP平均是多少，但是有人賺得很多，可是有人賺得比較少。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，大家覺得你也不用說服不要再講「用肺發電」或者是少講「用肺發電」，因為自從非核家園上路了之後，很明顯的火力發電、燃氣、燃煤大幅度的提升，到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%，所以這個是一般人民的認知啦！另外還要告訴你，這個是環境自己的數據，剛剛除了您講的這個排名，我們另外還要看到這個IQAir的統計，全球污染最嚴重的國家排名，臺灣是54名、韓國59、香港63、菲律賓74、新加坡94，俄羅斯99、日本108，請問部長，這樣子的排名，你怎麼會覺得臺灣的空污好轉，只輸日本？旁邊是你自己提供的圖，這是環境部的圖喔！你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5，但是硫氧化物、氮氧化物的排放源很確定至少介於20%到40%；硫氧化物是40%，氮氧化物是20%，都是由火力發電產生的，所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，IQAir是一個做空氣清淨機及微型感測器的公司，它對於PM2.5的量測是自動的，它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉，基本上我們是用手動式濾除，像日本、韓國，先進國家的國家標準都是用手動的來做，不是用自動的感測器……"],["陳委員菁徽：手動的監測站？"],["彭部長啓明：對，不是用這種自動型的來做，這個自動型的量測結果，我們比較不會作為標準。我記得在前幾次也報告過，這個數字我們參考就好了，它的趨勢可以看，但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第二個是，一般PM2.5就是叫懸浮微粒，它有直接產生出來的細微粒，也有衍生的，衍生的就是SOx、NOx（氮氧化物）等等，它會混在一起出來，所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5，因為它代表一個綜整的結果，當然我也知道，SOx電力業是40%，可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5。"],["陳委員菁徽：大家的理解是這樣子，既然火力發電很確認上升了，PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後，也會跟著上升，這是人民合理推測的一個常識。"],["彭部長啓明：可是，報告委員，其實因為我們最近這一、兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意，我們臺灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響，目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級，並沒有所謂的改變。"],["陳委員菁徽：我建議你可以到現在燃氣、燃煤大量增加的區域，再做局部地區的風險分析好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個我們都有看，目前其實沒有什麼太大的變化。當然我也必須說，因為最近是夏天，天氣很好，然後有下雨，當然就相對會比較好，如果冬天可能就比較不一樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，所以網路上也會有人說，你做出來的平均值，不但是平均臺灣各地的值，還是平均每一個月份，那是不是5到9月大家不要呼吸，然後9月之後大家再來呼吸？因為這些數值差得非常多嘛。","這是臺大的，可能部長也已經讀過了，就是臺大詹長權教授所做的分析。第一個是2022年，他去分析燃煤電廠附近的PM2.5後發現，第一，它擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大，影響的範圍更大；再來，跟其他電廠比起來，隔壁的縣市也容易受到影響。所以他去做風險計算發現，燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細懸浮微粒會造成約360例的成人死亡，還有124例的premature death。","另外一個是最新的2024年的研究，這是非常長期的分析，分析臺灣地區長達30年PM2.5的長期暴露，發現會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於非肺腺癌的風險，而且他去校正了性別、年齡、有沒有抽菸史、癌症分期這些，還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因，發現跟這些因素都沒有關係。","我們只是想正視這個問題，因為燃煤機組已經偷偷的打開了，我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱，在退役之前它必須再持續或者是它會延役，沒有人知道它會不會再運轉，這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情，而不是幫能源政策辯護。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是講我們的空污的確有改善，至於委員強調的，當然我也知道，我們肺腺癌的篩檢率目前量有增多，其實我們也在探討這個問題，因為我們的空污改善了，從過去24現在變成12.8，那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升？當然有很多因素，我想委員也是醫療專業……"],["陳委員菁徽：應該是說暴露這個還是有影響的？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實可能是這種固定源也一種，交通源也是一種，我們生活的污染源也有，所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說，我們會好好地去研究探討，生活上面或是各種的污染源，到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的，不是只有單一一個來源。"],["陳委員菁徽：但這個單一來源一定是上升的，這你同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：單一的來源，目前來看的話，如果以我們現在……"],["陳委員菁徽：難道它會是下降的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，基本上，委員，燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣，當然，現在大林跟興達……"],["陳委員菁徽：不，我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤一樣，就算你一直在講PM2.5，它都會增加硫氧化物，也增加氮氧化物，這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病，我們也不要只看肺癌，還會增加氣喘，還會增加咳嗽，增加頭痛，增加慢性咽喉炎耶。"],["彭部長啓明：對。報告委員，其實我們生活裡面有很多很多空污的來源，像我們最近也看了很多，例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜，煎肉、煎培根等等，它的PM2.5在國外的文獻都是可以到好幾百、好幾千，所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人，不是只有一個。當然我必須說，委員，我並沒有幫台電說話，只是我那天在解釋說我們的PM2.5逐漸在改善，而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定污染源了。"],["陳委員菁徽：其實我們也沒有希望你特別去幫台電說話，或是不要幫台電說話，你就是講出數據就好了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我就是講出數據，委員，我這本我待會再印出來給委員看看，參考一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。所以這邊也是讓你看一下，因為我們國家的政策，現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相牴觸的，說為了達到健康臺灣，我們希望2030年癌症的死亡人數要下降三分之一，可是我們現在在做的事情，其實是增加癌症的風險，剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了。既然是要降低癌症的風險，你會發現相比之下，從102年到112年，我們罹患肺腺癌的人從每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人。你也能發現，亞洲是全球五分之三肺癌的發生地，亞洲也是空氣污染最嚴重的地方。","您上週說希望大家不要再講用肺發電，結果，網路上有幾個網友是這樣講，他說，我有乾淨的煤，你有民主的肺嗎？或者是，乾淨的煤怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢？如果真的有，那就改用民主韌性的煤啊。我真心的希望非核家園不要成為肺咳家園，又有肺疾病，又有肺癌，又有呼吸道疾病，又引起咳嗽，希望環境部長可以正視這個問題，希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空污的影響，而不是告訴我們說，你每天量都是越來越好，這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣，尤其是在特定區域的人民。"],["彭部長啓明：所以，報告委員，我這本報告裡面都有特別講我們臺灣的污染源是哪裡，我們未來要怎麼做……"],["陳委員菁徽：好啦，你做這本報告當時還沒停核電嘛，你做這本報告時還沒停。"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，委員，空污的來源，例如我們做出來固定的污染源，其實我們的移動污染源已經超過固定污染源了，那電力業的比例有多少，其實我們過去的研究也都有探討。當然我也必須說，所有的量如果能夠一起減會更好，但是會造成癌症有很多很多的原因，我想委員你是醫生，絕對不是單一的原因所造成。"],["陳委員菁徽：有，我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的研究報告了，還是跟PM2.5大幅相關。"],["彭部長啓明：可是，委員，PM2.5其實在很多，像家裡面很多的生活習慣，它PM2.5也會飆高，我們大概有七、八成的時間在室內，所以政府希望能夠多方的降低PM2.5，這是我們努力的目標。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後一個問題，這是上禮拜滿大的新聞，就是在桃園，這個必須要幫環境部拍拍手……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：環境部跟桃園環保局查獲一個不肖業者非法掩埋廢棄物，裡面很混亂，包括水泥、樹脂、泡棉、廢液、實驗室廢料等等，達到一千七百多公噸，可是後來你們環境部把它收回去以後說，後續很不易處理，所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過2,000萬元，然後最後是對他開罰1,500萬元。那大家就會覺得，假使我是業者，我逃過的話就省了兩千多萬把廢棄物處理掉的錢，就算被抓到最高也只罰1,500萬元，這個跟食安法或者是放射性物料管理法以及公平交易法，罰款的range差很大嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，他的資產已經被我們凍結了，大概一千九百多萬，他未來也要負責全部的清理。我必須說，委員，我們過去的罰則是1,500萬，然後判5年，確實太低了，我們現在在啟動修法，可能刑期要拉到7年，而且可能不得緩刑……"],["陳委員菁徽：提高罰金嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：提高罰金，然後要加重刑責，這是我們現在要提出來的，也希望委員到時候可以支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，那請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。謝謝部長。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a55433e25214de61b6c7274cb7632216e664b71adb5aad231617c360b5c5c43e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:41:58 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謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有副秘好 請次長 廳長跟司法院的副秘書長好 請好 謝謝主席三位早安"},{"start":39.356,"end":61.453,"text":"我先請教一下複密還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算"},{"start":62.754,"end":87.372,"text":"那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院刪讀通過也都沒有一毛錢被刪我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法律預算而且一毛沒有刪"},{"start":88.192,"end":102.208,"text":"那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算案請問一下司法院我剛剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條"},{"start":106.982,"end":135.631,"text":"這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊"},{"start":136.75,"end":161.713,"text":"然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了"},{"start":164.017,"end":187.955,"text":"委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是 好 謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題"},{"start":189.136,"end":204.242,"text":"一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院"},{"start":206.523,"end":228.366,"text":"我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力好那所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說啊這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決我們都應該知道一件事情"},{"start":229.664,"end":249.967,"text":"請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣"},{"start":251.852,"end":276.548,"text":"是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰"},{"start":279.691,"end":298.982,"text":"請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法例所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話"},{"start":302.964,"end":322.932,"text":"你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常"},{"start":323.672,"end":336.923,"text":"NICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比"},{"start":340.256,"end":361.944,"text":"蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下"},{"start":364.01,"end":375.518,"text":"我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下"},{"start":376.929,"end":401.183,"text":"在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪 不能動 不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款 中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除 也就是"},{"start":402.403,"end":428.084,"text":"說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是"},{"start":430.543,"end":453.133,"text":"立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了"},{"start":455.546,"end":475.128,"text":"行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據"},{"start":476.269,"end":503.39,"text":"依法來執行 依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況其實我們的主席長其實在台南當過主計處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在"},{"start":505.137,"end":521.214,"text":"在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統"},{"start":522.535,"end":547.701,"text":"幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些"},{"start":548.901,"end":571.438,"text":"並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下"},{"start":577.728,"end":588.441,"text":"因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當一個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府"},{"start":589.707,"end":607.258,"text":"他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個"},{"start":608.619,"end":630.509,"text":"話不是這樣講啦 更何況借錢不是不用還 還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的 像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢 大家都統一三二十五到二十七趴我覺得這 這個不對啦 不能搞這種齊頭式的這個玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平"},{"start":632.423,"end":656.565,"text":"所以呢我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是去轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼就好像說那個"},{"start":657.628,"end":685.07,"text":"你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊結果他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢結果他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個"},{"start":688.035,"end":714.299,"text":"在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白爛三預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了"},{"start":714.699,"end":736.207,"text":"那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反"},{"start":737.949,"end":744.409,"text":"選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有在講了開始沒有在講這個東西了 就我們發現"},{"start":745.612,"end":772.83,"text":"哇 原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰 竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢"},{"start":774.543,"end":790.172,"text":"但當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體的錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是"},{"start":791.328,"end":812.207,"text":"行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好 那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣"},{"start":813.627,"end":837.295,"text":"秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事會決定的我不知道我們就告發一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈連署這種"},{"start":838.815,"end":867.332,"text":"中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客戶達到636億而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶"},{"start":868.937,"end":896.491,"text":"殘障的人需要用的錢那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力或八成五成都好啦麻煩檢察官調查官下去查一流客扣罪麻煩一下我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人年輕人一條活路"},{"start":897.659,"end":915.309,"text":"我剛講的東西全部我剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長 廳長 副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法的一流客戶請問次長要補充嗎"},{"start":916.65,"end":944.746,"text":"有沒有 我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除 刪減預算相關程序以及它的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝 那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且"},{"start":945.987,"end":958.201,"text":"刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":292,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時42分）謝謝主席，麻煩法務部次長、憲法法庭書記廳廳長，還有副秘。"],["主席（王委員義川代）：請次長、廳長跟司法院副秘書長。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主席，三位早安。我先請教一下副秘還有廳長，有關預算法第二條經過立法程序公布的稱法定預算，我們看到釋字第520號提到所謂的法定預算有一定效力，行政機關必須依法執行預算，並沒有拒絕執行的法律依據，否則就不符合依法行政的條件。我也再補充一下，這次一般性補助款2,501億，中央已經公布了，而且立法院三讀通過，也都沒有一毛錢被刪，我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪，也就是地方的一般性補助款是法定預算，而且一毛沒有刪。我想請教司法院是不是認同行政機關要受到法定預算的拘束，應該要依法執行預算案？請問一下司法院，就我剛提到的釋字及預算法第二條。"],["王副秘書長梅英：依這個釋字的解釋意思是這樣子的。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，釋字解釋是這樣，他們的協同意見書也非常清楚，釋字第520號的大法官協同意見書說明得非常清楚，行政機關必須要依法執行，並沒有可以拒絕執行的法律上依據，我剛才說的是我國的法制。","我再請教一下，如果中央不跟地方溝通，動不動就不給你一般性補助款，這時候地方可不可以聲請暫時性權利保護，因為這是屬於一般性的給付之訴？我想請教一下，當這個狀況發生時，可不可以提出暫時性權利保護，請求中央依法撥給地方補助款，是不是可以？"],["楊廳長皓清：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：請說。"],["楊廳長皓清：我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話，這部分在憲法訴訟法是有解決的機制，至於說……"],["吳委員宗憲：這個我想標的上面應該都沒有問題，這個是可以提出，訴之利益……"],["楊廳長皓清：但是剛剛提到的，如果涉及到暫時處分的話，依照憲訴法第四十三條，前提是要先有聲請和繫屬。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。我再請教司法院一個問題，一個經過立法院三讀通過且經總統公布的案子，不管是什麼案，在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前，請問一下，法律效力會不會受到影響？請教司法院。"],["楊廳長皓清：我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者為暫時處分之前，就是依法產生它應有的效力。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。這段時間，我跟非常多行政機關的人在面對的時候，他們常跟我嗆一句說這個將來可能會被宣告違憲，或是行政院會提起憲法判決。我們都應該知道一件事情，請公務員能夠理解一件事情，一個法律如果經過三讀通過且經總統公布，這個法律就是生效了，除非他日遭到大法官以憲判宣告違憲，在被宣告違憲之前，它都是一個生效的法律，我們都必須依法行政，必須遵守。請問一下司法院，是不是這樣？"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。我們再回過頭來，我想請教一下法務部次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我國刑法第一百二十九條是抑留剋扣罪，貪污治罪條例第六條第一項第一款也有，所以公務員對於明知道依法、依職務上應該發給的款項而抑留不發或者是剋扣，這個會觸法。請教次長，我國有沒有這樣的法律規定？"],["黃次長世杰：是，法條……"],["吳委員宗憲：我先不涵攝到目前國家發生的事實，我只請教次長，有無這個法律規定？"],["黃次長世杰：有，就如同委員的簡報資料上面所記載的，就是有這些法條。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以我在這邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告，如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話，你如果明知這個狀況，這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污治罪條例的規範，所以公務員依法應該發給的款項，就要依法去處理，不能夠不處理。","我在這邊再跟各位報告一下，其實主計長人很好，非常nice、溫和的一個人，他主掌著主計總處，他明明知道今年中央總預算拿到的是史上最高的預算，最高喔，本來編列的支出高達3.13兆，這個錢比蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算高了16%喔，所以我們政府這一次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政時候多了一千多億，比馬英九執政的時候多了1兆，並不是沒有錢啦，這個我必須要講一下。","我再講一個，我們來看一下這個圓餅圖，這是民進黨自己製作出來的圓餅圖，說是惡刪預算比例圖。我請各位看一下，灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說不能刪、不能凍、不會改變的預算，包括這一次的地方計畫型補助及中央一般性補助款，還有中央的法定支出，這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔。民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的部分，上面有標註藍白提案刪除，也就是說，民進黨都告訴你們了，一般性補助款是不能夠變動的，它是不能夠變動的，這個圖在網路上到現在都還找得到。其實一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪啊！三讀通過一毛都沒有刪，我這邊跟各位先補充這個問題啦。所以，被刪除的11個項目，就剛剛粉紅色的那個部分，被刪除的11個項目是立法委員覺得中央政府的國外旅費、電費、媒體宣傳費等等非必要、非優先的費用有一些浮濫或消費性的支出，其實刪的是這個，並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款，一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪，這個我先跟各位報告。","我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了，行政機關帶頭說謊說的越來越誇張，所以我在這邊必須要依法、依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣。我不是找中央政府麻煩，我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上的規定所講的，所以我覺得主計總處，對於我剛剛所說的這些東西，還是要依法來執行、依法來行政，不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣。更何況我們的主計長曾在臺南當過主計處處長，在地方主計處服務過嘛，他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係，以及我國廢省之後預算上的配比問題，他應該要很清楚這些事情啊！就是因為廢省之後配比發生了狀況，所以民進黨在野的時候提出要修改財劃法，就是這些問題嘛！當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊，所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣，而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整，過往的幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊，我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動這一塊。","再來，我再跟各位報告一件事情，其實一般性補助款它算是救命錢，這個是地方的教育以及給予那些低收入、弱勢團體的一些補助款項。主席，不好意思，再給我一點點時間。所以這並不是富人需要用的錢，這個是社會上很多人需要用到的，像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢，所以你去砍這個東西不好吧！","我再舉國內兩個負債比最高的縣市──苗栗跟宜蘭，他們負債很高，像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85萬的公共債務，我們再回過頭去想一下，因為行政院發言人說地方可以去舉債啊，可是我們現在身為立委，我們捨得我們縣市政府讓子孫的負債越來越高嗎？譬如說苗栗平均每人負擔公共債務已經6.5萬了，我希望它越來越高，苗栗的子子孫孫、宜蘭的子子孫孫的負債比例越來越高嗎？我覺得我們都捨不得吧！所以中央一句話說地方可以去借錢、可以舉債，我覺得話不是這樣講啦，更何況借錢不是不用還，還要負擔利息喔，這個不是很多縣市負擔得了！也有負債還OK的，像屏東是沒有負債的，但是大家都統一刪25%到27%，我覺得這這個不對啦，不能搞這種齊頭式的玩法，這其實對地方上是很不公平的。","所以我跟各位說，我自己的感覺是這樣啦，立法院在監督中央政府，今天不管誰執政、誰在野，反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府，當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好，刪了你的預算的時候，結果你竟然轉去刪地方的錢，這個感覺是什麼？就好像你去一個地方上班，老闆跟你講好一個月5萬塊，依照勞基法，他就必須要一個月給你5萬塊，結果他跟他老婆吵架，他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉了，他跑來跟你說每個月該給你的5萬塊只能給你4萬，變成這樣了，他被砍的是別個項目的錢，結果他來告訴你，依法該給你的錢他不給了，我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛，請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦。","我要再一次重申，在野黨立委並沒有砍到地方的一般性補助款，這段時間，我覺得我們遇到很多人，你看這段時間，其實一開始很多人說藍白亂刪預算，什麼租屋補貼、什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了，我走在路上遇到罷團拿個麥克風在那邊講，都是在講這一套，但最近比較少人講了，我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦，因為越來越透明大家就知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛！我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長，因為他們說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等，後來發現根本沒有刪，這個就是不對的。另外，你為了要大罷免而去講這個，那是違反選罷法第一百零四條第一項，現在罷團沒有在講這個東西了，結果我們發現，哇，原來中央的這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪，真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰？竟然是行政院，行政院不給地方一般性補助款，這些錢就是用在地方，是給弱勢團體的小孩子、給年輕人的救命錢，結果真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員，反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢，真正刪的是這些錢，當初一堆造謠的那些，說藍白亂刪預算導致地方上年輕人的錢都沒有了、弱勢團體的錢都沒有了。結果這些現在都不是真的，真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼？就是行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款，而一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利、教育等等的錢，所以我們看到原來亂刪預算的是行政院！","最後30秒，我提一個，既然這樣子的話，我在這邊就一樣秉持著法律人的天性，依法告發抑留剋扣罪，但我不知道是誰決定的，中央政府裡面不知道是誰決定的，是不是主計總處決定的我不知道，我們就告發抑留剋扣罪啊，請法務部去請檢察官、調查局趕快下去處理。既然調查局對於幽靈連署這種中選會可以依法剔除的東西都覺得傷害國家很重，破壞民主制度，都可以這樣去全國大搜索、大羈押，OK，沒關係，違法你去查，但是今天這個更嚴重，因為這個抑留剋扣達到636億，而且是全臺灣受害，而且受害的人是窮人、是低收入戶，不是富人喔，因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢，是教育、低收入戶、殘障者需要用的錢，既然這麼嚴重，是不是我們應該要……我不敢說比什麼查幽靈連署更用力啦，就跟查那些案子一樣用力，或八成、五成都好啦，麻煩檢察官、調查官下去查抑留剋扣罪，麻煩一下，我今天在這邊依法提出告發，請去查明是誰、哪一個公務員在幹這個事情？是誰不給我們這些辛苦的年輕人一條活路？","我剛剛講的東西，我剛剛所做的法律上一整套推理的邏輯，我想次長、廳長、副秘都是法律人，都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼，清清楚楚，從憲法到地方法規的論述，我清清楚楚，我認為這個就是違法不發給，而這是屬於刑法的抑留剋扣罪。請問次長有要補充嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：沒有，我們尊重委員的意見。不過也補充說明，因為關於刪減預算的相關程序以及實質憲法上的爭議，現在已經繫屬於憲法法庭審理中，我們都尊重一切判斷的結果。謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝，我也希望最終是一場誤會，真的要發給，我在這邊跟各位以及現場所有人報告，我的個性真的不是追究誰的責任，而是因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢，而且三讀的時候，在立法院一毛都沒有刪，就是覈實的發給各個地方、各個縣市，不管是哪一個政黨執政的縣市，因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢。謝謝各位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}},{"id":"161900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40aed8bf2aed1ae09b5ee4a52ea614c3ed7664b71adb5aad231e8ce97be1a103f415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:45:53 - 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我們有請顧部長有請部長 謝謝好 部長早"},{"start":10.181,"end":31.887,"text":"部長,接續剛剛的羅委員質詢的部分不管是我們空軍花蓮基地的問題,不管是影片是AI所形成的或是說有可能是他們透過什麼方式去取得部分的相片或影片"},{"start":33.968,"end":52.098,"text":"可能也涉及到相關的一個比較機敏的一個市政希望說我們國防部針對這個部分應該要能夠這個積極的掌握相關的情勢避免相關的這個情勢繼續的這個發生那我想就叫是在"},{"start":53.274,"end":66.627,"text":"對於空拍我們軍事營區的事件從2022年以來我們也看到中國的民用無人機多次侵擾我們金門單靠目視的察覺和干擾槍的反制"},{"start":72.762,"end":88.577,"text":"恐怕是這個量能會不足那我們在各個重要的軍事單位尤其是機場周邊是否都有規劃建置無人機的預警以及反制的系統或裝備以避免機民處"},{"start":91.616,"end":118.272,"text":"還有這個營區還有其他這個這個相關的部署會外洩的情形那我想就叫部長就目前我們對這個部分的進度是否都符合這個預期已經進行當中跟委員報告我想第一個還是要說明這一個在流傳的影片應該不是以無人機的方式來進行拍攝的這是第一點第二點"},{"start":119.178,"end":134.037,"text":"那剛剛陸軍已經有說明了我們採購無人機的反制系統26套那麼我們會在今年會交付13套,那其餘的會在明年交付,這個是屬於部署在金馬東營等地區的"},{"start":136.019,"end":153.411,"text":"那至於另外由這個空軍統建的這個部分,也就是屬於中科院的這個包括固定式跟機動式的這個部分那我們也陸續正在這個結角這個當中,那我想等這個整個"},{"start":156.727,"end":182.421,"text":"完畢之後呢,我想我們這個無人機的防制系統在各個基地我想就能夠充分的掌握有關無人機來實施空拍的這些作為這樣好,那部長我們針對這個無人機的部分我們目前就是用這個目視察覺還有這個干擾槍的一個反制那還有沒有其他比較先進的方式可以來反制?"},{"start":184.374,"end":200.765,"text":"剛剛提到有關中科院所做的UDS防禦系統,我想驗證的結果應該是可以來反制這些小型的無人機"},{"start":203.663,"end":233.017,"text":"我想除了這個中科院的這個反制作業的相關設施以外我們也看到漢翔公司目前也積極的投入發展這個無人機的反制系統建立自有的這個防疫產品並且目前已經進入系統測試的階段那近期內我們陸軍也以國防創新發展名義公開徵求可吸式的這個無人機反制系統規格上要求能夠干擾其接管"},{"start":233.497,"end":245.225,"text":"一二級的這個無人機並且能夠偵測到操作者的一個位置等等那國防部是否還有針對不同單位的這個需求對於無人機反制系統有擴大這個研發採購的一個相關計畫我先請陸軍"},{"start":252.595,"end":274.833,"text":"報告委員 委員剛才所提詢的除了兩個部分第一個機場的UDS的固定室還有機動室之外那另外剛才部長所答詢的包含到外離島地區那我們陸軍現在也正在評估各個層級部隊對無人機的反制上的需求那所以我們目前在依照一個公開商情的做一個了解"},{"start":275.513,"end":283.622,"text":"國內外目前反制系統的成熟的程度那未來納入我們的各層級無人機反制系統的一個配置的規劃"},{"start":286.354,"end":314.647,"text":"也就是說我們會有新型式的無人機的反制系統會有更新型式的新型式另外我想就我們國防產業的一個發展合作來救救我們國防部台灣一直希望能夠打入美國的國防供應鏈日前我們行政院鞏敏欣秘書長在訪美的過程當中曾經公開表示美國在無人機的研究上有"},{"start":315.848,"end":339.449,"text":"這個最先進的一個技術那台灣則在這個生產的方面我們有對於這個部分蠻精進的一個生產線那具體指出台美軍工產業合作的一個可能性過去這個AIT處長谷麗妍也在近期的一個專訪當中指出雙方在這個無人機領域的一個合作聚焦"},{"start":340.67,"end":362.88,"text":"會在AI應用還有供應鏈整合以及投資等三個重大的領域近期內對於台美共同生產的武器的討論似乎已經逐漸的明朗具體化我想請教部長雙方在推動共同生產的議題上就目前能夠公開揭露的部分是否已經有更進一步的發展"},{"start":364.922,"end":387.436,"text":"美國在跟我們從事相關的軍事交流的部分呢特別針對這個以俄烏戰爭的一個經驗那特別我們以一個海島的國家對於無人機要從事相關的這個後續的這個生產跟這個供應的是也就是說我們並"},{"start":389.273,"end":413.381,"text":"並不那麼的簡單說從外國來運不過來所以我們要建立自主的生產能量是相當的重要所以在這個部分呢不管是透過授權生產或共同研發或者是在地來生產然後來排除這個非紅的供應鏈這個部分我想我們現在都在進行當中"},{"start":415.059,"end":431.946,"text":"那我想請教部長,目前我們跟美方的合作,他們比較關切的會是什麼?哪一方面的事情?應該比較關切的應該就是說,我們的自主的產能,是不是足夠因應?"},{"start":433.996,"end":462.287,"text":"自主的產能對現在就是說我們需要有一些關鍵的一些技術嘛這是一點那這些關鍵的技術我們可能可以透過授權的方式可以透過共同研發的方式那或者是透過這個我們自己本身跟民間的能量來進行研發這些現在無人機的產業我想已經快速的相當已經"},{"start":463.687,"end":472.315,"text":"已經有快速的在形成一定的這個能量但要因應這一個就是說"},{"start":473.519,"end":490.563,"text":"足夠的產能,這個部分我們還需要努力就在產能方面對,產能的一個擴張那這個部分跟委員報告也就是說我們必須要打入國際供應鏈就是說國際的飛鴻供應鏈,這個部分我們必須要打入才會有一定的經濟規模"},{"start":498.114,"end":521.747,"text":"好 那這部分我們也期待國防部透過這次跟美方的合作能夠順利的打入供應鏈的提供那也讓雙方在軍工產業的合作上能夠進一步的合作對於我們國防產業的發展還有國家安全都能夠向上提升這是我們期待的是好 謝謝部長謝謝 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那剛剛部長有提到所謂的這個反制無人機那針對這個三軍重要的軍事基地的無人機的這個反制方案目前主要有兩個專案在執行一個是由這個空軍統籌的這個建案就是跨軍種來做部署 那中原院來做研發那另外 這個叫做遙控無人機防疫系統案嘛"},{"start":270.137,"end":285.887,"text":"那另外還有一個呢就是由陸軍單獨建案採購的這個總共26套的無人機反制系統案那這兩個專案目前進度如何之前好像有一些延宕喔那目前呢年底 據說年底就要建制完成那現在呢請問進度"},{"start":287.788,"end":312.387,"text":"那個應該是區分一個是陸軍跟空軍陸軍的部分先請陸軍回答我要好陸軍的部分主要是以外島地區的為主那目前整個進度是正常那整個的這個產製協議書我們也在4月份核定第一梯的13套我們會在今年10月上旬交裝經過驗收合格之後就可以部署"},{"start":312.907,"end":322.067,"text":"那另外第二梯的部分是管制在115年交裝目前整個執行進度正常那我們也會落實相關的履約房廠的作為"},{"start":323.234,"end":339.914,"text":"所以這一切進度其實都有按照正常的步驟在走所以大部分的話其實在年底就會建制完成十月是第一批十月第一批再來的話還有第二批的另外13套在明年到明年去了115年"},{"start":344.518,"end":370.665,"text":"說實在的面對這個中共的這個情收我在想說不但會對花蓮其他的地方可能也可能會發生類似這種狀況所以我想說反制無人機的這個建制真的是非常的這個重要那再來還有一點就是說像這個我們還有一個軍事營區安全維護條例在去年九月份的時候就公告了而且有七項的這個執法呢"},{"start":372.505,"end":400.164,"text":"預定呢今年的七月就上路那當然在預告期的時候我們會做一些意見的這個會診那目前的進度如何這部分我們本期也想了解一下我們還是會預計在七月一號正式施行七月一號正式會施行那我們這個意見的會診都已經完全已經完成了嗎有做一些調整是不是我們有相關大概十幾個執法七個執法吧我們有七個執法對不對"},{"start":402.369,"end":410.75,"text":"法律師、法律事務師有多少?七個執法嘛來,要不要說明一下"},{"start":416.35,"end":442.992,"text":"目前這些執法都已經完成相關的預告程序目前大概會依照程序在7月1號之前來完成大副作業那當然有一些居民也疑慮就說像我們這個安全維護條例第六條第一項的這個許可事項他們也很擔心說那以後去拍攝這個跑道啦會不會有所影響那我有看到國防部的這個曾經說起降畫面問題"},{"start":444.473,"end":460.283,"text":"可是我們現在看到就是說花蓮基地這個影片的這個事件我們會否會想要考慮再做這個調整會嗎還是目前還是以這個目前我們所通過的這個執法為主有沒有要做任何的這個調整嗎會想要更嚴謹更嚴密嗎"},{"start":463.103,"end":473.657,"text":"我們這個軍生營區安全維護條例還是會按照我們現在相關的預定期程就會來上路7月就是會來上路?對對對因為這個營區這個"},{"start":477.382,"end":500.144,"text":"安全的維護條例它已經有將相關的這些包括我們固定的這些軍事與安全營區或者是我們正在實行一些戰備演訓的部分都已經也納入了所以我想這個整個來看應該是有周全"},{"start":500.784,"end":506.368,"text":"所以我們會如期來施行那當然再看看後續我們執行的狀況"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":155,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時37分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，最近中國的社群流傳一段疑似以空拍機、遠程鏡頭或者是衛星圖資合成的影片，鉅細靡遺的揭露花蓮空軍基地內部部署，包含中隊的配置，還有加固機堡的尺寸、緊急升空戰機的機位等等，甚至還標示士官兵的營舍與各單位的機堡數量，引發嚴重國安疑慮。想請教部長，還有人提到這可能是用無人機低空拍攝的，到底這個影片的真實性如何？"],["顧部長立雄：經我們研析結果，這應該是不同時期的衛星影像拍攝，以3D合成方式，用軟體後製完成的。"],["羅委員美玲：後製的，所以中共完全沒有真的用無人機去實地拍攝，沒有這件事情？"],["顧部長立雄：我們判斷的結果不是。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這個是不是又是中共的另外一種認知作戰，就是顯示臺灣的軍方實在是非常的鬆散？是不是要製造這個假象，連他們到基地裡面拍攝都無法察覺？他是要以製造這個錯誤的作法來從事認知作戰嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們認為有相當的可能是在從事一種認知作戰。"],["羅委員美玲：如果真的發生這件事情的話，其實我們國軍用目視察覺是有辦法的，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：對於無人機這個部分，我們現在已經陸續在不同的空軍基地設置反制無人機……"],["羅委員美玲：反制無人機，到目前為止還沒有設置完成，我所知道的是這樣。如果是用目視的話，我們有辦法嗎？如果哪天真的有敵方的無人機到基地拍攝，我們反制無人機還沒有建置的話，這有辦法用目視察覺嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：請空軍做個說明。"],["李參謀長慶然：委員好。空軍司令部參謀長跟您報告，確實用目視來檢查、用目視來找無人機，尤其現在都是小型無人機，非常困難，所以我們也在……"],["羅委員美玲：非常困難，就算是到基地拍攝……"],["李參謀長慶然：是，如果它的高度稍微高一點的話……"],["羅委員美玲：我們如果用目視是非常困難的，是不是？"],["李參謀長慶然：是，如果它的高度高一點的話，再加上用眼睛去看，在背景非常複雜的情況下，這個我們以前在基地演練的時候都實際測試過，用目視去看非常困難，所以我們在……"],["羅委員美玲：那有沒有其他的察覺方式？如果沒有反制無人機的話。"],["李參謀長慶然：有，我們已經在111年開始建置，用主動式與被動式的防禦系統，它可以接收到遙控的頻率，也可以用雷達波的方式去主動搜索，大概在5公里範圍內，我們已經有部分基地建置完成，效果都非常的好。"],["羅委員美玲：所以像中國現在發布的這個影片，其實以我們目前的防禦系統、防衛系統的話，是不可能發生的，是不是？"],["李參謀長慶然：如果建置完成的話，目前看的情況是一定會被發現。"],["羅委員美玲：一定會被發現？"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["羅委員美玲：所以連花蓮基地其實也有防禦系統的建置，已經有了……"],["李參謀長慶然：有，我們全軍的基地都有。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這個事情根本就不會發生，其實全部都是一個合成的影片。"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，我們的系統目前在陸續地建置中，建置完成的基地，目前運作的情況都非常良好。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！剛剛部長有提到所謂的反制無人機，針對三軍重要軍事基地的無人機反制方案，目前主要有兩個專案在執行，一個是由空軍統籌建案，這是跨軍種部署，由中研院研發，這個建案叫遙控無人機防禦系統案。另外，還有一個是由陸軍單獨建案，採購總共26套無人機反制系統案，這兩個專案目前進度如何？之前好像有一些延宕，據說年底就要建置完成，請問現在的進度如何？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是區分陸軍和空軍，陸軍的部分先請陸軍說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：委員好。陸軍的部分，主要是以外島地區的為主，目前整個進度都正常，整個產製協議書我們也在4月份核定，第一梯的13套會在今年10月上旬交裝，經過驗收合格之後就可以部署，另外，第二梯的部分是管制在115年交裝，目前整個執行進度正常，我們也會落實相關的履約、訪廠作為。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這一切的進度其實都有按照正常的步驟在走？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["羅委員美玲：所以大部分在年底就會建置完成？"],["陳參謀長建義：10月是第一梯13套。"],["羅委員美玲：再來的話……"],["陳參謀長建義：還有第二梯另外的13套是在明年。"],["羅委員美玲：到明年去了，115年。"],["陳參謀長建義：是，期程有到明年。"],["羅委員美玲：說實在的，面對中共的情蒐，我想不單單會對花蓮，其他的地方也可能會發生類似的狀況，所以反制無人機的建置真的是非常重要。","再來，我們還有一個軍事營區安全維護條例，去年9月份的時候就公告了，而且有7項子法預定今年7月上路，當然在預告期的時候，我們會做一些意見的彙整，目前的進度如何？這部分本席也想瞭解一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我們還是預計會在7月1日正式施行。"],["羅委員美玲：7月1日會正式施行，我們的意見彙整都已經完成了嗎？有做一些調整，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有相關大概十幾個子法……"],["羅委員美玲：7個子法吧？我們有7個子法，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：法律事務司，有多少個……"],["羅委員美玲：7個子法吧？"],["顧部長立雄：要不要說明一下……"],["陳副司長子儀：報告委員，目前這些子法都已經完成相關的預告程序，大概會依照程序在7月1日之前完成發布作業。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！當然有一些居民有疑慮，像安全維護條例第六條第一項的許可事項，他們也很擔心以後去拍攝跑道會不會有所影響，我有看到國防部澄清起降畫面問題不大，可是我們現在看到花蓮基地影片的這個事件，你們是否會考慮再調整，會嗎？還是會以目前我們所通過的子法為主，有沒有要做任何的調整？你們會想要更嚴謹、更嚴密嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：軍事營區安全維護條例還是會按照我們現在相關的預定期程上路。"],["羅委員美玲：7月就會上路？"],["顧部長立雄：對，軍事營區安全維護條例已經有將相關的這些事項，包括固定的軍事安全營區，或者是我們正在執行這些戰備演訓的部分，都已經納入了，所以整個來看應該是有周全，所以我們會如期施行，當然再看看後續我們執行的狀況。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，謝謝，以上。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","接下來有請陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-17","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","王定宇","徐巧芯","林楚茵","鄭天財Sra 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可是怎麼會還在因為我剛剛不想講這樣可是購物袋的現用跟收費政策其實台灣民眾都已經也是習慣了因為很多份的調查都顯示差不多結果將近八成的人知道買東西要自備購物袋不知道要"},{"start":129.522,"end":151.694,"text":"不然就要自己付錢來買袋子那6成5的民眾是支持2030年全面限售更有超過8成6的民眾是認為說重複使用塑膠袋它事實上是可以做得到的所以這些數據都說明說限售政策的基礎其實在民眾的生活當中已經是穩固那我覺得這也是政策推動的最強的後盾"},{"start":153.135,"end":172.694,"text":"所以民眾已知然後我們攤商的抗拒也不是很嚴重他給的意見是不送最好因為塑膠袋的成本越來越貴了可是他還是有他們一些問題他兩大困境是不敢不送因為隔壁的商家都在送或者是裝袋很麻煩要跟客人拿袋子來裝袋"},{"start":173.815,"end":185.007,"text":"那既然有這兩大困難的話那就是希望民眾已知然後攤商有一些困難所以是不是應該可以政策上去考慮"},{"start":186.107,"end":204.758,"text":"可不可以排定場域去推動有一個順序然後可是這個場域推動的時候要一致性譬如蔡市長要一致性否則的話就像攤商講的隔壁再送我沒有送那我就不對了那可能我的生意會減弱還有請聽他們的需求去解決問題"},{"start":205.598,"end":231.464,"text":"他增加經濟誘因剛剛部長也提到說要有一些經濟誘因啊可能使得他們會願意去做來降低我們的攤商的成本然後明確制定策略跟目標所以我要請環境部呢事實上兩個月內是不是可以知道你們有沒有更積極的方案不管是分場域分階段可能要有個期程才讓人家知道說這四大場域接下來你會怎麼去"},{"start":231.926,"end":245.667,"text":"所以要清楚列出時程跟規劃跟成效目標所以部長這部分能不能做到有沒有什麼困難報告委員其實最後一條就是市場啦那這個市場呢其實有一些市場有自發性的做例如說台北市應該是東門市場"},{"start":248.269,"end":266.518,"text":"南門還是東南門市場他們就是做的有自發性去做這個事但是其他的市場呢就跟如同委員說的就是別人都送啊我就不送啊所以大家都就變成說這個東西只有在某一天推廣的時候會這樣是所以我說有沒有辦法去分你的這個場域之後然後能夠有些期程規劃"},{"start":267.638,"end":291.265,"text":"不是2030年目標是很難達成的對 報告委員我們現在有一個新的做法就是說我們先找一個可能大家都會去的同溫層例如說花市大家都會去買花也願意去做的然後我們會有一些新的做法再提出來那現在正在演繹當中那這個大概在一兩個月內就會再推出來那我們希望造成一個示範的亮點讓大家能夠真的去省思這個問題所以部長兩個月內可不可以給我"},{"start":292.645,"end":314.029,"text":"可以可以可以差不多可是剛剛提到線索真的事實上14類事實上是被你們要求這14類業者要配合限量使用就整體的用量卻反而事實上是成長這不代表就政策沒有抓到關鍵嗎我舉兩個例子第一個我們的宅配的包裝袋跟氣泡袋"},{"start":314.554,"end":333.784,"text":"疫情後事實上這種消費型態改變跟用量暴增你們推出的環保網購的指引2.0還有也說是2026年要達成減量的目標真的能做到嗎第二是PVC的包裝袋雖然便宜透明適合我們的商品展示跟使用但含氫鈾"},{"start":335.345,"end":361.768,"text":"含那個塑化劑你們雖然在禁止在使用在食品的包裝可是其他的用途有管制嗎是不是有落實呢這些袋子最後還是落在台灣的土地上所以想問部長你怎麼看塑膠袋內銷量的上升這個趨勢這個數字你們怎麼拿來評估整體的那個減售的政策針對這兩個案例部長能不能在有效期限內去達標"},{"start":363.729,"end":389.64,"text":"跟委員報告那這邊的內銷量他會包括說我們的網購或說有些東西他包裝或外銷的啦那我想除了我們鋼的市場之外其實像科技業或者我們賣場的塑膠袋我們都一起會提出來一些減量的措施對可是我們內銷量是成長的這件事情有沒有辦法因為如果要達到2030年的話去做這樣子的一個減量根本看起來很難達標"},{"start":391.055,"end":397.36,"text":"整體剛剛14類已經事實上是有被先用可是問題是你內銷的塑膠的製品的話事實上是成長的"},{"start":399.298,"end":418.463,"text":"那這邊因為會牽扯到說民眾的生活習慣我們會以一個分捐的方式先以獎勵那以這個指引的方式譬如說現在除了我們的刷袋或者是免疫餐具之外其實還有賣場的這個他包裝也很多或者網購包裝那因為網購包裝推動這個循環袋箱需要有一些時間還有他現在的成本是比較高的那這邊我們會來這個逐步來推動再麻煩"},{"start":429.329,"end":449.756,"text":"很進步再來就是提到那個塑膠袋的用量那我們現在要問的是全球的那個塑膠公約強調有效回收循環再利用可是今天時間有些人不談後端處理所以想問我們的政策真的有幫民眾做好分類嗎台灣有九成以上的民眾都說自己有在做垃圾分類"},{"start":450.316,"end":463.954,"text":"可是塑膠現在大部分都丟在同一類要細分類的時候大家都常常搞不清楚所以像單一材質的可以回收複合材質不行的這種規則有多少人可以判斷得出來"},{"start":465.516,"end":488.289,"text":"雖然你們都有推社區公益大廈回收的示範計畫可是大部分都是靠管委會只是公告或現場回收員的那個人員的一些糾正可是塑膠材質這麼多標示又不清楚大家都覺得有心可是又沒有辦法所以是不是可以就是就想問是說現在真的有落實這樣子的一個前頭"},{"start":489.55,"end":501.548,"text":"源頭管理廠商能夠標示清楚然後呢讓民眾能夠有接受到你們的訊息真的讓民眾知道這些怎麼去做分類這樣能夠做到正確分類"},{"start":503.763,"end":532.078,"text":"各位報告那民眾他要丟出這些塑膠的製品有幾種方式啊那像如果是說他是給這個回收車因為他家裡的空間不多所以他只能夠分說容器類一大類然後讓青年隊去分類但是他也可以到賣場或者說我們有些現在有個自動回收機那那個部分就可以比較對塑膠有些比較好的分類方式可是還是希望環境部可以加強宣導真的很多人事實上是不太理解"},{"start":532.626,"end":556.514,"text":"這一塊這麼細分類只是大分類而已我們有看到一些國外做得好他分類的項目多到很多啦但是我們國人其實要往下走下一步的確分類的方式跟他的這個定義我們的確有增進的空間請環境部再好好的想一想怎麼讓民眾得到這樣的一個訊息那最後就是想問的是因為這也是在預算的時候"},{"start":557.094,"end":580.143,"text":"我就有提出來 以桃園省道為例來提醒過機車的噪音問題非常嚴重 影響到民眾的安寧這一年來 環境部推動排氣管的認證制度也是助地方加強我們的聲音的照相執法這部分非常值得肯認可是後續還是有幾個問題要改善第一個 很多人預約排檢就是我要預約檢驗卻排不到"},{"start":583.864,"end":612.075,"text":"那車照樣在路上跑地方環保局只能先不罰結果還是守法的民眾事實上是反而吃虧第二聲音照相的設置地點好像目前都集中在飆車族出沒的區域可是民眾真正投訴的熱點呢反而沒有裝設所以現在罰單上還是沒有去負那個分倍數的數據的爭議這會影響到整體的公信力制度的公信力所以是不是我考"},{"start":612.495,"end":626.661,"text":"我覺得建議兩項就是擴充我們的檢驗的量能也應該設計回檢的那個機制讓民眾知道不是通過一次我們認證就可以永久改裝使用第二事實上是公開我們設"},{"start":628.822,"end":657.174,"text":"點的邏輯也就是加強佈建設備要裝在真正民院的地方而不是在飆車組的地方所以請問部長這些建議是不是可以落實可以那這個因為那個一個站也是要100多萬所以我們也要爭取預算能夠來協助地方能夠多設置一點那委員因為過去都是飆車組的熱點那委員說的這個民眾老民的點因為最近我們也收到一些民眾他說那個點不是他生活的這個點 是 桃園我們"},{"start":657.674,"end":678.563,"text":"那樣區域他們還是在跟我反映說去年已經好預算也希望你們要去改善這部分可是好像似乎事實上是還是沒有達到沒有解決他們的問題那晚上睡覺的時候還是遭受到很大的痛苦預算我們會努力去爭取最後就還是期待就是說線索的這些場域不要再停留在事半的階段"},{"start":678.943,"end":694.378,"text":"還有非管制塑膠袋的不能用越多因為我們內銷量是在成長所以這個請一個月內是不是可以提出你們現在的具體方案那最後噪音這一塊的話希望守法的人能夠不要吃虧以上謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時33分）主席，有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。今天想針對之前我提出的預算，跟環境部有關的部分來跟部長討論一下。部長，去年我就問過了，限塑政策到底要怎麼推，特別是針對小吃攤、菜市場、早餐店和餐廳，這四大場域有沒有清楚的期程跟策略？結果你們的解凍報告寫說，跟91年比，112年減塑大概減量了50%，可是針對這四大場域，最難推的場域到114年還只是停留在所謂試辦計畫和寫指引的階段，你自己最近也公開說2025年的目標有難度。我知道從2018年擴大限用到14類的業者，事實上已經是很重要的進程，但現在剩下的就是最難推的商家類型，所以我想問這些試辦計畫到2030年真的能夠達標嗎？有沒有更積極的作法？因為我們翻遍你們的報告都沒有看到。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為其實我自己也都是上街買菜，我自己會帶環保袋，可是我看到像我這樣做的，可能100個只有1、2個，所以國人的慣性動力真的要改變，一定要有一個誘因的機制。我也觀察到各縣市環保局也都有協助、配合我們在做，但是就是辦的那天會這樣做，隔了幾天大家都忘記了，所以我們跟循環署一直想要用新的方法來解決，但是我們現在還沒有完全定案。"],["林委員月琴：對，可是怎麼會還在試辦？雖然剛剛部長這樣講，可是購物袋的限用跟收費政策，其實臺灣民眾都已經習慣了，很多份的調查都顯示差不多的結果，將近八成的人知道買東西要自備購物袋，不然就要自己付錢買袋子。有六成五的民眾是支持2030年全面限塑的，更有超過八成六的民眾認為重複使用塑膠袋，他事實上是可以做得到的。這些數據都說明限塑政策的基礎，其實在民眾的生活當中已經是穩固的，我覺得這也是政策推動的最強後盾，民眾是已知的，然後我們攤商的抗拒也不是很嚴重。他們給的意見是不送最好，因為塑膠袋的成本越來越貴了，可是他們還是有一些問題，兩大困境是不敢不送，因為隔壁的商家都在送，或者是裝袋很麻煩，因為要跟客人拿袋子來裝袋。","既然有這兩大困難，就是雖然民眾已知，但是攤商有一些困難，是不是應該可以在政策上去考慮？可不可以排定場域去推動，然後有一個順序？可是這個場域推動的時候要有一致性，譬如菜市場你要有一致性，否則的話，就像攤商講的，隔壁在送，我沒有送，那就是我不對了，可能我的生意會減弱。還有要傾聽他們的需求，去解決問題，去增加經濟誘因，剛剛部長也提到要有一些經濟誘因，使他們願意去做，來降低攤商的成本，然後明確制定策略跟目標。所以我要請問環境部，是不是可以在兩個月內讓我知道你們有沒有更積極的方案？不管是分場域還是分階段，可能要有個期程，才能讓人家知道這四大場域接下來會怎麼去推動，所以要清楚列出時程、規劃、成效、目標，部長這部分能不能做到？有沒有什麼困難？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實最後一哩路就是市場，有一些市場有自發性在做，例如臺北市的南門市場，他們有自發性地去做這個事，但是其他的市場就如同委員說的，就是會說別人都送，我不能不送，就變成這個東西只有在某一天推廣的時候會這樣做。"],["林委員月琴：是，所以我說有沒有辦法去區分出場域之後，能夠有一些期程規劃，否則2030年的目標是很難達成的。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在有一個新的作法，譬如我們先找一個可能大家都會去的同溫層，例如花市，大家都會去買花，也願意去做的，然後我們會再提出一些新的作法，現在正在研議當中，大概在一、兩個月內就會推出，我們希望做成一個示範的亮點，讓大家能夠真的去省思這個問題。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長，兩個月內可不可以給我資料，讓我知道這些？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，差不多。"],["林委員月琴：可是剛剛提到限塑，事實上被你們要求的這14類業者配合限量使用後，整體的用量反而是成長的，這不就是代表政策沒有抓到關鍵嗎？我舉兩個例子，第一個，我們宅配的包裝袋跟氣泡袋，事實上在疫情後消費型態改變，用量暴增，你們推出的環保網購指引2.0，還有2026年要達成減量的目標，真的能做到嗎？第二是PVC的包裝袋，雖然便宜、透明，適合我們的商品展示跟使用，但含塑化劑，你們雖然禁止使用在食品的包裝上，可是其他的用途有管制嗎？是不是有落實？這些袋子最後還是落在臺灣的土地上，所以想問部長，你怎麼看塑膠袋內銷量上升的這個趨勢？這個數字你們怎麼拿來評估整體的減塑政策？針對這兩個案例，部長能不能在有效期限內去達標？"],["賴司長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，這邊的內銷量，包括網購，或者有些東西是包裝後外銷的，我想除了我們剛剛說的市場之外，其實像科技業或者賣場的塑膠袋，我們都會一起提出一些減量的措施。"],["林委員月琴：對，可是我們的內銷量是成長的，這件事情有沒有辦法解決？因為你如果要達到2030年的目標的話，只做這樣子的減量，看起來根本很難達標，因為剛剛說的14類業者，事實上已經是被限用，可是問題是你內銷的塑膠製品是成長的。"],["賴司長瑩瑩：因為會牽涉到民眾的生活習慣，我們會以一個分階段的方式，先以獎勵、以指引的方式，譬如現在除了我們的塑膠袋或者是免洗餐具之外，其實還有賣場的包裝或者網購包裝也很多。因為網購包裝推動循環袋箱需要一些時間，還有它現在的成本是比較高的，我們會逐步來推動。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩環境部。再來，提到塑膠袋的用量，全球的塑膠公約強調有效回收、循環再利用，今天時間有限，我們不談後端處理，所以想問我們的政策真的有幫民眾做好分類嗎？臺灣有九成以上的民眾都說自己有在做垃圾分類，可是塑膠現在大部分都丟在同一類，要細分類的時候大家常常都搞不清楚，像單一材質的可以回收、複合材質的不行，這種規則有多少人可以判斷得出來？你們雖然都有推社區公寓大廈回收的示範計畫，可是大部分都只是靠管委會公告，或現場回收人員的一些糾正，可是塑膠材質這麼多，標示又不清楚，大家都覺得有心可是又沒有辦法。我想問，現在是不是真的有落實這樣子的源頭管理，廠商能夠標示清楚，然後讓民眾能夠接受到你們的訊息，真的讓民眾知道這些怎麼去做分類，能夠做到正確分類？"],["賴司長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，民眾要丟出這些塑膠的製品有幾種方式，如果他是給回收車，因為他家裡的空間不多所以他只能夠分容器類一大類，然後讓清潔隊去分類，但是他也可以到賣場，或者我們現在有些自動回收機，那個部分就可以對塑膠有比較好的分類方式。"],["林委員月琴：可是還是希望環境部可以加強宣導，事實上很多人真的是不太理解這一塊這麼細的分類，他就只是大分類而已。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們有看到一些國外做得好，分類的項目多到很多啦！但是我們國人要往下走下一步，的確分類的方式跟它的定義我們有精進的空間，這個我們會來做。"],["林委員月琴：是，請環境部再好好的想一想，怎麼讓民眾得到這樣的一個訊息。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員月琴：最後，因為這也是在預算的時候我就有提出來，我以桃園省道為例來提醒機車的噪音問題非常嚴重，影響到民眾的安寧。這一年來環境部推動排氣管的認證制度，也協助地方加強聲音的照相執法，這部分非常值得肯認，可是後續還是有幾個問題要改善。第一個，很多人預約排檢，就是我要預約檢驗卻排不到，車照樣在路上跑，地方環保局只能先不罰，結果守法的民眾反而吃虧。第二，聲音照相的設置地點好像目前都集中在飆車族出沒的區域，可是民眾真正投訴的熱點反而沒有裝設，所以現在罰單上還是沒有附分貝數數據，這樣的爭議會影響到整體制度的公信力。所以我建議兩項，就是擴充我們檢驗的量能，也應該設計回檢的機制，讓民眾知道不是通過一次認證就可以永久改裝使用。第二，公開我們設點的邏輯，也就是加強布建，設備要裝在真正民怨的地方，而不是在飆車族的地方。請問部長，這些建議是不是可以落實？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。因為一個站也是要一百多萬，所以我們也要爭取預算協助地方能夠多設置，因為過去都是在飆車族的熱點，關於委員說的擾民的點，因為最近我們也收到一些民眾說那個點不是他生活的點，所以……"],["林委員月琴：是，桃園我們認養的區域他們還是在跟我反映，去年已經希望你們要去改善這部分，可是事實上似乎是還是沒有達到，沒有解決他們的問題，他們晚上睡覺的時候還是遭受到很大的痛苦，所以要請你們來處理。"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個預算我們會努力去爭取啦！"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：最後，還是期待限塑的這些場域不要再停留在試辦的階段，還有非管制塑膠袋的不能越用越多，因為我們內銷量是在成長，所以是不是請一個月內提出你們現在的具體方案？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員月琴：至於噪音這一塊的話，希望守法的人能夠不要吃虧，以上，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員建議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。部長，我要提醒你，你剛剛講那些話很恐怖喔！你說你有買菜的習慣，也有自備環保袋的習慣，你到市場看有這個習慣的100個人才1、2個啦！你確定喔？你是一年買一次菜，還是一個月？"],["彭部長啓明：一個月1、2次。"],["主席：那可能多看幾次，應該臺灣人使用環保袋不會100個只有1、2個在使用啦！"],["彭部長啓明：就是不用塑膠袋的啦！"],["主席：對啦，但是你說那個比例才1、2個會使用環保袋？顯然這個政策就已經……"],["彭部長啓明：不用塑膠袋的人很少。"],["主席：不用塑膠袋的人很少？我覺得是很多，可能有些場域真的誠如部長所講的，但是應該一般臺灣人、國人使用環保袋的比例應該是高的，不會是低的，就我的理解啦！抱歉！因為我雖然沒去買菜，但我也會去買東西，我也會自備環保袋啦，抱歉，好啦！因為部長說100個才1、2個在用，那這個政策就夭折了。","對不起，請陳委員，抱歉。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n事項8案)","agenda_id":"1145302_00003"}}},{"id":"161897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161897","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40ab41c3266ab2ab8976c7274cb7632216e664b71adb5aad23193f6943423fdd6745ea18f28b6918d9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法務部次長"},{"start":136.257,"end":157.449,"text":"按照你的理解這算跟燒嗎這個還是要看構成要件那有可能構成但是還是要由這個教育單位先行輔導然後假設被害人或是他的家長有提出告訴的話我們就會接手來處理"},{"start":158.39,"end":184.947,"text":"好就是完全是看所謂的這個所謂的被害人他覺得因為這個照角色照剛才委員所描述的情形的話應該是告訴乃論之罪OK好那接下來我請這個內政部這個次長在這一個警方如果受理報案我舉一個例子就是在路上走"},{"start":186.308,"end":209.921,"text":"那每次要回家呢 後面就跟著一個人那也不知道那個人是誰也不知道那個人是誰那也沒有制止他但是就心生恐懼心生恐懼 他也沒有對你怎樣但是他就一直跟著你喔那你也沒有回去找他喔你就趕快跑回家然後今天這樣 明天也這樣這可不可以報案"},{"start":211.285,"end":238.915,"text":"報委員 這個應該要報案因為違反意願 心生恐懼 影響生活就應該報案好 那報案的時候這個可以報什麼報委員 這個根據我們目前的法規有色違法跟跟騷法都可以報案好 那跟騷法要不要回頭跟他講你不要再跟不需要 我們只要有重複 反覆實施的話我們就可以來報案那如果沒有重複呢"},{"start":239.992,"end":255.101,"text":"沒有重複如果是一次性的話,這個可能會比較適合社會法的狀態比較符合社會法?比較符合,因為我們要看個案好,那報案你們就會查嗎?報案如果我們認定說這個有跟沙法的構成要件的話,我們就會核發告解署"},{"start":255.714,"end":282.646,"text":"那就你們認定我們會認定 行政上認定就是說我們偵查的過程如果認為他有跟騷行為的話那同性之間算不算都算同性之間也算也算 跟性別有關都算不是 就是就是我覺得他在跟我那我覺得他對我有跟騷我就去報案了可以的我就去報案了我個人覺得可是對方呢 沒有 他就他對我也沒有什麼在性上面的這一個"},{"start":284.511,"end":307.842,"text":"這個事情,那這可以符合跟騷法嗎?各位網友,這個還是要約詢我們的相關當事人來了解案情因為如果說他所比如說跟蹤的目的或者是說他有拍攝的行為那拍攝行為如果涉及到對方的隱私或是一些特定部位的話這個我們是可以根據跟騷法來做認定那跟騷法要反覆對不對?如果沒有反覆就沒辦法?"},{"start":308.715,"end":334.453,"text":"一次性的話基本上我們會比較傾向於那這一個恐嚇違安要不要反覆恐嚇違安的話它是另外一個法律恐嚇的話是刑法對它不是跟騷法我知道那要不要反覆來那個馮鶴部副市長那個跟騷行為除了反覆之外還有持續也就是說雖然只有一次性但是如果持續很久也算跟騷"},{"start":337.519,"end":361.954,"text":"講清楚一點就是它構成要件裡面除了反覆或持續以性或跟性有關的這個目的來做這個跟蹤或是騷擾行為的話就可能會構成這個跟騷好 我為什麼要這樣問就是當有人被跟蹤 被偷拍他的第一時間他當然就是跑嘛"},{"start":363.877,"end":375.966,"text":"就是說趕快離開現場那他很緊張啊他就跑去派出所報案啊派出所如果回答他說請問你要告什麼這樣是處理這樣是對的嗎應該要跟這個我想應該請那個警政署這邊來來 警政署這樣是對的嗎當事人喔"},{"start":387.219,"end":407.787,"text":"任何案子基本上我們都要先受理,再來瞭解他整個案情的狀況,他是誰該當何人那警察可不可以跟當事人分析說,你這齁,不確定對方是甚麼人所以你這根梢法應該告不刑,你這恐嚇維安也告不刑你再想想看,看你要告什麼,這樣的對話是對的嗎"},{"start":411.525,"end":431.509,"text":"這樣是不對的 這樣是不可以的因為這個當事人啊這個反應 他去派出所 反正就去避免他說有人跟他對嘛後來警方跟他說 你要回頭制止他你沒有制止他你怎麼知道他在對你做這些事情這不對喔這樣是不對的最後我再請這個教育部啊"},{"start":443.861,"end":469.747,"text":"我很擔心我們現在的學校尤其是高中這種跟騷的狀況同學之間被騷擾的狀況如果一開始都無所謂後來家長倆說這個小朋友回去會講我們學校我叫他不要跟我他就一直跟我但是他也都沒講話然後呢這個"},{"start":472.268,"end":487.282,"text":"這個所謂的被害人的家屬就跑去警察局告了他就第一時間跑去警察局,然後就報案了可是呢,這個到底有沒有跨過那條線啊我覺得教育部應該,因為我跟你講學校老師可能也不懂"},{"start":491.326,"end":509.122,"text":"謝謝委員提醒在學校老師的部分我們應該要加強相關的性別平等職能的教育所以我建議教育部跟法務部還是內政部針對學校的老師尤其學校輔導的老師這方面的認知要加強"},{"start":512.665,"end":537.335,"text":"然後順便跟學生做教育否則很多學生搞不清楚他也不知道他跨過了那一條線他就覺得他就是喜歡他他就是迷戀他但是他也什麼事他也沒做什麼動作他就想說我要保護他回家他回完家他自己也回家是 謝謝委員指導學生部分我們應該也要加強有關情感教育的一個方面的一個宣導 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":543.882,"end":544.407,"text":"謝謝王一專委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":221,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時32分）謝謝召委，我們請教育部，法務部跟內政部的兩位次長。"],["主席：你問教育部就厲害了，我又沒說教育部有人來，你也把人叫上來，請許嘉倩副司長。"],["王委員義川：還有內政部、法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：請內政部馬次長、法務部黃次長。"],["王委員義川：我先請教教育部的代表，跟騷法通過以後，對於男女同學之間的追求，教育部怎麼宣導跟騷法？"],["許副司長嘉倩：跟委員報告，有關跟騷法的部分，其實在校園平等教育法裡面的相關性別事件我們的宣導、防治一直都有在做。"],["王委員義川：這三年有學生因為跟騷法被告發、舉報或者去告的嗎？"],["許副司長嘉倩：跟委員報告，這三年其實都有相關的事件，依我們這三年的統計，比如像去年大概有八十幾件的通報。"],["王委員義川：結果呢？"],["許副司長嘉倩：跟委員報告，關於屬實的部分，在去年的統計大概只有12件。"],["王委員義川：只有12件？"],["許副司長嘉倩：對。"],["王委員義川：好。我先問教育部的原因是因為跟騷法與追求之間有一條線存在，比如A同學很喜歡B同學，他下課就跑去他的教室外面看他，放學他就說要保護他回家，他也沒有對他做什麼，他什麼都沒做，他就是默默地跟著他。法務部次長，按照你的理解，這算跟騷嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：這還是要看構成要件，有可能構成，但還是要由教育單位先行輔導，假設被害人或他的家長有提出告訴的話，我們就會接手處理。"],["王委員義川：就是完全是看所謂的被害人，他覺得……"],["黃次長世杰：假設照剛才委員所描述情形的話，應該是告訴乃論之罪。"],["王委員義川：OK，好。接下來我請內政部次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["王委員義川：警方如果受理報案，我舉一個例子，你在路上走，每次要回家，後面就跟著一個人，不知道那個人是誰，也沒有制止他，但是就心生恐懼，他也沒有對你怎麼樣，他就是一直跟著你，你也沒有回去找他，你就趕快跑回家，然後今天這樣、明天也這樣，這可不可以報案？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這應該要報案，因為違反意願、心生恐懼、影響生活，就應該要報案。"],["王委員義川：報案的時候可以報什麼？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，根據我們目前的法規，有社維法及跟騷法都可以報案。"],["王委員義川：依跟騷法，要不要回頭跟他講你不要再跟？"],["馬次長士元：不需要，只要有重複、反覆實施就可以報案。"],["王委員義川：如果沒有重複呢？"],["馬次長士元：如果沒有重複，只是一次性的話，這個可能會比較適合社維法的狀態。"],["王委員義川：就符合社維法？"],["馬次長士元：比較符合，因為我們要看個案。"],["王委員義川：報案你們就會查嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報案後如果我們認定有跟騷法構成要件的話，我們就會核發告誡書。"],["王委員義川：就你們認定？"],["馬次長士元：我們會認定，行政上認定，就是我們偵查過程如果認為他有跟騷行為的話。"],["王委員義川：同性之間算不算？"],["馬次長士元：都算。"],["王委員義川：同性之間也算？"],["馬次長士元：也算，跟性、性別有關的都算。"],["王委員義川：不是，就是我覺得他在跟我，我覺得他對我有跟騷，我就去報案？"],["馬次長士元：可以的。"],["王委員義川：我個人覺得，可是對方沒有覺得，他對我也沒有什麼在性上面的事情，這可以符合跟騷法嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，這還是要約詢相關當事人來了解案情，因為如果他跟蹤的目的或者是說他有拍攝行為，拍攝行為如果涉及到對方隱私或特定部位的話，我們是可以依據跟騷法來做認定。"],["王委員義川：跟騷法要反覆，對不對？"],["馬次長士元：對。"],["王委員義川：如果沒有反覆就沒有辦法？"],["馬次長士元：一次性的話，基本上我們會比較傾向於社維法。"],["王委員義川：恐嚇危安要不要反覆？"],["馬次長士元：恐嚇危安的話是另外一個法律，恐嚇的話是刑法，不是跟騷法。"],["王委員義川：我知道，那要不要反覆？"],["馬次長士元：恐嚇不用。"],["王委員義川：請問法務部次長。"],["黃次長世杰：跟騷行為除了反覆之外，還有持續，也就是說，雖然只有一次性，但是如果持續很久也算跟騷。"],["王委員義川：你要不要講清楚一點？"],["黃次長世杰：就是構成要件裡面，反覆或持續以性或跟性有關的目的來做跟蹤或騷擾行為的話，就可能會構成跟騷的違法行為。"],["王委員義川：我為什麼這樣問？就是當有人被跟蹤、被偷拍，他第一時間當然就是跑嘛，趕快離開現場，他很緊張啊！他就跑去派出所報案，派出所如果回答他說：「請問你要告什麼？」這樣處理是對的嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這應該要請警政署來回答派出所的部分比較正確。"],["王委員義川：警政署，請問這樣是對的嗎？當事人喔！"],["詹副署長永茂：任何案子基本上我們都要先受理，再來了解整個案情的狀況是屬於該當何罪。"],["王委員義川：警察是不是可以跟當事人分析說你這件不確定對方是什麼人，所以跟騷法應該告不成，恐嚇危安也告不成，你再想看看你要告什麼。這樣的對話是對的嗎？"],["詹副署長永茂：這樣是不對的，這樣是不可以的。"],["王委員義川：這樣是不對的喔？"],["詹副署長永茂：對。"],["王委員義川：因為當事人反映，他去派出所，進去後他說有人跟他，後面的人也有拍他。後來警方跟他說：你要回頭制止他啊！你沒有制止他，你怎麼知道他在對你做這些事情。這不對喔？"],["詹副署長永茂：對，這樣是不對的。"],["王委員義川：這樣是不對的喔？"],["詹副署長永茂：是。"],["王委員義川：最後我請教教育部，我很擔心我們現在的學校，尤其是高中，這種跟騷的狀況、同學之間被騷擾的狀況如果一開始都無所謂，後來家長抓狂了，小朋友回去會講學校某某某我叫他不要跟我，他就一直跟我，但是他也都沒有講話，所謂被害人家屬就跑去警察局告了，第一時間就去警察局報案了，可是這到底有沒有跨過那條線？我覺得教育部應該……因為我跟你講，學校老師可能也不懂，對吧？副司長，你覺不覺得學校老師應該也不懂？"],["許副司長嘉倩：謝謝委員提醒，其實在學校老師的部分，我們應該要加強相關性別平等的職能教育。"],["王委員義川：所以我建議教育部跟法務部還是內政部，針對學校的老師，尤其學校輔導的老師，這方面的認知要加強，順便跟學生教育，否則很多學生搞不清楚，他也不知道他跨過了那條線，他就是覺得喜歡他、迷戀他，但是他也沒有做什麼事，沒做什麼動作，他就是想說要保護他回家，回完家他自己也回家。"],["許副司長嘉倩：謝謝委員指導，學生部分我們應該也要加強有關情感教育方面的宣導，謝謝。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員，換您代理主席。","接下來請吳宗憲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra 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您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場"},{"start":36.531,"end":51.306,"text":"然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐"},{"start":52.126,"end":56.269,"text":"那不管說這個公民團體他們的意見後來有沒有被接但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法"},{"start":75.02,"end":85.593,"text":"那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎 部長"},{"start":95.504,"end":98.287,"text":"報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放"},{"start":110.421,"end":127.25,"text":"我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來"},{"start":128.311,"end":132.293,"text":"部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他的他沒有按照規定前一週的那個資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六張核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決"},{"start":156.624,"end":172.871,"text":"所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛"},{"start":173.531,"end":199.542,"text":"報委員其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是傳媒委員建議的真的是參與啦他不是說關在一個房間然後時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在那天他非常的偏頗"},{"start":202.503,"end":215.208,"text":"那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本次會議龐丁發言維持五位民眾與101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是"},{"start":225.012,"end":242.377,"text":"然後先是公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到那個會議現場那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與"},{"start":247.519,"end":270.452,"text":"還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜"},{"start":271.152,"end":276.096,"text":"部長我告訴你事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那天趙燕妍押名義是7比0過部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟CHAT GPT"},{"start":289.867,"end":295.552,"text":"因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHAT GPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHAT GPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHAT GPT"},{"start":310.546,"end":313.467,"text":"我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長 部長第一個CHAT GP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權 討論權 違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程"},{"start":338.914,"end":342.536,"text":"如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案"},{"start":356.806,"end":372.673,"text":"也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHAT GPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長"},{"start":373.573,"end":396.882,"text":"您喜歡的ChanceGPT這樣回答,您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個室友lag的情況這個已經有改善了"},{"start":397.262,"end":415.391,"text":"那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上"},{"start":417.792,"end":425.019,"text":"參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式"},{"start":441.633,"end":459.912,"text":"那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者的一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":462.935,"end":481.183,"text":"我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他可以更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎"},{"start":481.803,"end":490.511,"text":"如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史"},{"start":504.585,"end":511.691,"text":"福金神上您願意嘛,那我們技術上怎麼來克服?你看這裡面有好多個委員,你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你,這基本原則,環評委員在會議中提出的意見,是否應該如實記錄跟確認?這個原則對嗎?"},{"start":526.564,"end":546.178,"text":"對 這個已經都有確認 都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議 發言記錄還沒有全數確認時 主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診 然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員 這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢 那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議"},{"start":551.001,"end":574.162,"text":"莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅字切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊四十多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本自欺欺的這些都是委員講的話耶"},{"start":576.623,"end":588.308,"text":"顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊"},{"start":596.394,"end":615.109,"text":"那怎麼辦呢 你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次"},{"start":615.469,"end":619.933,"text":"這環評會議不是橡皮圖當 不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲 我就是要過 目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未確認之處 你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎"},{"start":641.192,"end":653.116,"text":"那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場"},{"start":663.26,"end":671.172,"text":"但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料"},{"start":672.766,"end":697.843,"text":"這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個那個我來檢討一下其實報告委員這個其實是一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的意見但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權齁是基本啦"},{"start":699.263,"end":726.955,"text":"參與才是真正的民主啦博敬我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上還在掛著但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見啦那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到這種但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會嘛了解這些事情的機會"},{"start":727.875,"end":728.116,"text":"好 部長謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時20分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長好。部長，其實在本委員會裡面，大家都認為您在質詢的態度上以及誠懇度，我們都覺得評價很高，所以我跟您討論的問題，我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分，以前公民團體是一開始就進場，從聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言階段的環節，他也能夠針對開發單位提出的回應做一些質疑，基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐，不管這個公民團體的意見後來有沒有被接納，但至少還有一個溝通跟互信的平臺，但是末代署長張子敬把這個程序取消掉，部長您現在的作法更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間去看螢幕，只有輪到民眾發言的環節才請他出來，而且還有1進1出的這種作法，而螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的時間是有落差的，還要等公民要求才去做改善。所以我想請教部長，過去行政機關引以為榮的就是環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制，現在一再限縮，這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，為了這個問題，我也調查了我們部從有環評會議開始到現在是怎麼去執行，當然當中有經過疫情的期間，疫情期間的確是1進1出，後來有稍微開放，本部成立之後，因為後棟有一個會議室，有18個位置，所以我們差不多前年的時候就以18位來進行，沒有什麼限制，可是因為今年年初發生四接環評事件的時候，我們裡面湧進了四、五十個人進來。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，那天非常……因為您不在，你是叫次長來主持，那天我們黨3個委員都在，第一個，他臨時限制20個人發言；第二個，他沒有按照規定，前一週的資料沒有完整放上去，而且還缺了第6張核心資料；第三個，前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊、作假的行為，那個資料我也在之前就寄到環境部……"],["彭部長啓明：有，委員，這個我們正在調查當中。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為這些問題沒有解決，所以基本上大家覺得那天開會是不當的，所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做，這是我要跟部長講的，就是你不可以用這件事來整個否決公民參與，等於你是「倒退嚕」嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實是沒有的，因為第一個是一個人其實可以報告3分鐘，就像立法院對委員的質詢時間也有限制，我後來看了我們過去4次用這個新的辦法，這個新的辦法是環評委員建議的啦。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我強調的是參與，不是說關在一個房間，然後時間到就去叫他們出來，等一下我再跟部長講，我先跟你解釋四接案的狀況，因為你不在，但司長在，那天他非常地偏頗。部長，我看到這個新聞，你稍微看一下，就是本次會議旁聽發言維持5位民眾於101會議室，發言後採1進1出等等，其實看到這個新聞有點難過，因為環境部在前幾週有一個大甲溪光明電廠開發案限制公民團體進場，就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播，他連直播都不是喔，然後限制公民團體代表必須輪流發言，輪到發言才可以從小房間移到會議現場；上個禮拜更嚴重了，國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子，這個等一下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重，相同劇情又出現一次。請問部長，你認為現在環境部環評會議的公民參與還算是公民參與嗎？限縮成這個樣子，因為以前你們最驕傲的就是有公民參與，你認為現在還是公民參與嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個的確是公民參與，但是也要報告委員，我們現在還在找更好的方法之一，因為雖然我們有18個位置，之前也曾經擴展到四、五十個位置，但是就造成場內正反面意見的人在那邊無法溝通，而且變得非常吵雜。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我就跟你說因為四接案的時候我都在場，所以我告訴你發生什麼事，之前有些程序的問題、資料不實的問題，那個事前都處理了，但是那天照樣輾壓民意，17比0通過。部長，有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候，我不曉得您記不記得，您跟我說您很喜歡用AI及ChatGPT，因為上面會有非常清楚的答案，你還當場秀給我看ChatGPT跟你的解釋一樣，我今天想告訴部長，ChatGPT不認同環境部目前的作法是符合公民參與，我用剛才那個公視的新聞詢問ChatGPT，我問他說，環境部在這個環評會議上輪到發言才可以到場講3分鐘，這是公民參與嗎？報告部長，第一個，ChatGPT說這不符合理想的公民參與原則；第二個，它說你們這樣做很有問題，限制知情權、討論權，違反實質參與，缺乏程序正義及公共信任，公民參與應該完整參與整個過程，如果只能排隊發言，時間到了才去現場，根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會，這樣就是形式啊，公民失去公共政策的影響力，不僅不能有效釐清爭議，也不能提出替代方案，也沒辦法要求修正開發計畫或提出一些意見；第三個，ChatGPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與，而且有影響力的參與，環境部這樣的作法根本就是排除異議、排除不同的聲音啊！部長，您喜歡的ChatGPT這樣回答，您可以自己去試試看。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們現在正在進行環評總體檢，像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一，這是一個試行，我們過去4次環評會議，的確是用5個進去、1進1出的這種方式，我們希望能夠比較平和地來進行，委員剛剛講到有lag的情況，這個已經有改善了；另外，委員提到未來的改善，我們希望年底有一個更好的制度，這個制度不是我們來訂的，是透過我們一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，其實如果您更開放，回到公民參與，其實他們這邊的秩序討論，大家都可以好好協調，如人數等等，這個都可以協調，但是你真的不要再用……"],["彭部長啓明：不過委員，我實際上參與的經驗是無法協調，因為正反的意見常常一半一半，兩邊有時候在那邊吵架……"],["陳委員昭姿：我所謂的協調是程序的部分，因為這樣的機制也沒有辦法實質全程參與，他只有在發言的時候才能去，這就是違反整個知情權、討論權、程序公義，您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：那天那個司儀的態度非常偏頗，他非常熱情地對待支持者的一方，但是對民團的態度非常不好。所以我想再確認一下，部長，如果您願意好好重新開啟開放公民環評進場機制的話，我可不可以確定一下，您是這樣的態度嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我是這個態度，但是在程序上如何讓它可以更順利、更平和……"],["陳委員昭姿：完整參與，就是一直到發言的時候，有可能讓他們全部參與嗎？就回到過去了，只是回到過去。"],["彭部長啓明：對，不過報告委員，因為我們只有18個位置，之前擠了四、五十個人。"],["陳委員昭姿：幾個人，我們想說至少有公民是可以全程參與，您支持這樣的作法嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果是在一個很合理、符合會議規範，然後大家也願意互相聽取對方的意見……"],["陳委員昭姿：我覺得這很關鍵，您的承諾會決定我今天對於所有解凍案要不要通過，這非常重要。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是支持開放政府的，所以這個程序如果我們可以做到，我會儘量做到，但是因為以前的環評會議，我有特別找了以前的歷史，因為我……"],["陳委員昭姿：精神上您願意嘛……"],["彭部長啓明：精神上我願意。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我們看看技術上怎麼來克服嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你看這個，這裡面有好多委員，他們提出對於這一次國科會環評的意見，我想請問你基本原則，環評委員在會議中提出的意見是否應該如實記錄跟確認，這個原則對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這已經都有確認、都有紀錄。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。那這次科學園區的會議，發言紀錄還沒有全數確認時，主席就宣布散會，還說意見之後再彙整，然後再給環評委員會看，你覺得這樣合理嗎？他在結束前沒有做確認耶！他說我以後再整理給你們看。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是一個諮詢會議，他們提出的意見，國科會要提出一個詢答，才會進入實質上的審查會議。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你覺得這樣可以嗎？還沒有確認，就把會議結束掉了。部長，這次科學園區的會議，很多委員講了很重的話，你看，我用紅字標示了，寫得相當不好，問題很多，還有空間、需求也有問題，四十多年來問題很多，都要盤點啊！還有人講說只有放流水符合最低標準，根本是自欺欺人，這些都是委員講的話耶！"],["彭部長啓明：對啊，所以……"],["陳委員昭姿：顯然環評品質很有問題，為什麼這個專案工作小組還是直接通過，往下一關送，當作沒事？他們提出這麼多嚴肅的問題，這麼嚴重的問題，等於是行政機關在主導這個程序，輾壓專業意見，怎麼辦呢？你看這個作法。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是政策環評，是提供諮詢的會議。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是已經有這麼多問題的話，是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理？而不是直接就往下一關送，現在就是往下一關送啊！"],["彭部長啓明：他們如果沒有回答對，下一次的會議也是不會過的。"],["陳委員昭姿：不要說到下一次，因為部長你看，這很嚴重啦！這個環評會議不是橡皮圖章，不能說彙整一下，我再處理。不能當過場戲，不能說我就是要過，目標就是要過，所以那些話我就當作沒有講過。部長，我可不可以請你做一個承諾？這次的意見紀錄是不是有遺漏？你看，剛剛主席也是這樣問，有沒有遺漏或未經確認之處？你要不要檢討會議流程？譬如你還沒有做確認，可以結束會議嗎？是否建立透明機制？你在彙整過程當中，我怎麼知道你是怎麼彙整的，是拿有利的部分彙整，還是拿這部分來彙整？部長，不要黑箱，要公開嘛！這個原則……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個都有逐字稿，他們開發單位一定要據實作答，下次的會議過或不過，其實這些委員都在場。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你剛剛都回答到了，但是我可不可以問您，您是不是可以在會議結束之前把這些做個基本確認？不能說大家都散了，然後回去自己整理資料，當天主席就是這麼做的。部長，這個部分要檢討，好不好？你可不可以寫一份那次會議的檢討報告給我們？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們再檢討一下。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實是一個政策環評，它跟一般的環評不大一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，最後一張簡報──「我不同意你的意見，但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利」，這個是環保署時期你們貼在牆壁上的，你們也繼續帶到環境部。發言權只是基本的，參與才是真正的民主，部長，我希望你把這件事放在心上。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個牌子現在還掛在環境部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：還掛著，但是我也必須說，大家意見不一樣，但還是要聽對方的意見啦！我會再看看我們的機制，現在是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助到兩方，讓不一樣的意見可以在中間找到一個可以討論的地方……"],["陳委員昭姿：在任何團體、任何部門，我知道都會遇到這個問題，但是基本上我們要讓他有發言、有參與、有了解這些事情的機會。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長謝謝，主席謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-13","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","張啓楷","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","廖偉翔","涂權吉"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論\n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講2023年做了什麼事情我看了覺得很扯"},{"start":196.503,"end":219.637,"text":"結果高等法院的報告給一頁這個報告副秘書長有看過嗎你覺得滿意嗎還是你覺得反正司法院送來的報告這些立法委員也都不會看隨便寫一寫有文字在上面交差了事就可以了是這樣嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":225.135,"end":233.643,"text":"這個高等法院的報告您看過嗎?有看過您滿意嗎?您覺得滿意嗎?有回答問題嗎?您覺得勒?不是啊,我們現在這樣大家在看直播好像現在在定格"},{"start":248.564,"end":277.178,"text":"我只是請你給我一個答案你也可以代表司法院的立場說我們看過了沒有問題很滿意或者是我們看過了我們也覺得不滿意因為高院是不是請那個高院長來回覆因為高院這一部分他們那個預算是他們那個那個組織機關是那個高院我先帶下帶你們看為什麼我覺得你們的解凍報告沒有回答問題沒有解答人民心中的疑惑來"},{"start":278.697,"end":304.421,"text":"第一個問題從之前我追鍾文智追到徐少東大家有一個共通的問題是說這一個人這兩個人之前都逃亡過被通緝過結果呢沒有羈押就算了那個是最嚴重限制人身自由的強制處分結果連電子監控都不用"},{"start":306.089,"end":325.103,"text":"我問法務部的官員法務部說這個審判中啊是法官要處理的那當然檢察官在審判程序當中有沒有依職權促請法官為助役這我會要求法務部但問題是當發生這樣子的事情了以後連續執行了兩個案子你們完全沒有辦法回答"},{"start":332.947,"end":360.854,"text":"在這個報告裡面一個字都沒有提大家不懂之前已經跑過了被通緝了現在抓回來抓回來接受審判在審判程序進行當中連電子監控都不用然後人都跑了會讓人民開始懷疑啊這些有權有勢的人是怎麼亂搞都沒有關係嗎?司法院覺得這件事情需要檢討嗎?"},{"start":363.096,"end":391.195,"text":"來 請司法院跟那個委員報告因為這個部分所有的處分因為都是屬於法官個案他們的審酌司法行政真的不變智慧司法行政能夠做的就是我們一直在不斷的在各種的或者是透過通行或者是透過行政會議就是跟法官宣達提高他們對這個部分的敏感度"},{"start":392.813,"end":417.095,"text":"我這樣說好了啦在法治國家當中我們當然尊重司法獨立但司法不是置外於社會司法的公眾監督非常的重要一而再再而三發生這樣子的案子人民覺得很困惑結果最近來又多一個新的這個議員又跑了"},{"start":419.09,"end":441.17,"text":"他前面也是一樣喔他前面也是一樣 他曾經跑過結果連電子監控都不用後來出現大家的批評啊 是什麼這個我之前我全部都有掉啦法官在做強制處分的時候前案紀錄表應該都在卷宗內吧"},{"start":446.365,"end":475.718,"text":"前案發生了什麼事情法官應該都會知道吧是那為什麼是沒有看嗎還是看了覺得沒有關係之前雖然跑過這次不會跑來看一下地方人士說所有的人都知道要跑只有司法單位不知道你看連莊瑞雄都笑出來了所有的人都知道要跑了只有法官不知道我看召委應該也知道他要跑了啦"},{"start":477.486,"end":506.264,"text":"沒有 你笑成這個樣子啊你也是屏東出來的啊在地是怎麼做 你莊瑞雄應該很壞啦全世界的人都知道他要走啊 只有法官不知道這種有權有勢的人一而再再而三發生這種事情這個是人民對於司法的信任為什麼會低落嘛這也是為什麼我會提出這個預算凍結案希望你們回去檢討"},{"start":508.715,"end":536.808,"text":"在作業程序上面是不是出了什麼問題我們的法官需要什麼樣的協助為什麼他們所做的強制處分跟最後的結果會落差這麼大跟人民的認知會落差這麼大這是為什麼我們當初要提出預算凍結案的理由讓你們有機會去重新的審視"},{"start":539.045,"end":567.954,"text":"希望你們好好的看一看到底發生了什麼樣的狀況但從我提預算凍結案到現在一個又一個一個又一個還是全部都跑了我本來期待在今天你們的書面報告裡面我可以看到有意義的檢討但我必須要負責任的跟我們司法院的長官報告"},{"start":570.291,"end":596.327,"text":"這個是虛硬故事交差了事完全沒有回應問題完全沒有回應問題在一個又一個的案子當中如果遭到 如果遭到這樣子的狀況所有的人民都會問到底發生了什麼事情當然人民沒有機會"},{"start":597.965,"end":615.735,"text":"問司法院但我們有機會問司法院所以我們才會提這樣子的案子希望司法院能夠強化這件事情的作為解答人民的疑惑最後一個問題"},{"start":626.775,"end":648.949,"text":"最高法院有沒有通知評檢啟動防逃因為媒體上面上面是寫說評檢是看到媒體相關報導才知情我看了有一點嚇一大跳所以這個事情要先釐清這個媒體的報導司法院有沒有掌握有嘛那你們了解的狀況是什麼"},{"start":650.513,"end":664.365,"text":"因為最高法院通常判決的結果依照我知道他們實務上面的操作是星期五的時候會先公布主文星期五公布主文代表的就是這個案子已經做決定了"},{"start":666.929,"end":684.768,"text":"最高法院有通知評檢啟動防逃什麼時候通知的有掌握嗎跟委員報告這一件是在5月14號的時候評決的那當時確實沒有通知那個防逃那這一件就是就是依這個"},{"start":686.629,"end":714.837,"text":"相關內規的那個防逃那個辦法這一件他因為犯罪所得是一千多萬那判刑四年多他是不屬於那個重大矚目案件但是我們也必須說那個被告他的身份是現役員那是符合那個防逃的規定那這一件就是據那個最高他們的那個報告他們說因為這一件在那個判決的那個犯罪事實中呢他沒有那個很明顯的呈現就是被告他的那個身份"},{"start":715.777,"end":744.46,"text":"那所以說這個部分他們對不起我聽不懂耶最高法院處理上訴最高法院的法官卷不是都要看過嗎我有理解錯誤嗎沒有錯那整個卷看完了不知道被告的身份那我只有一個結論啊就根本沒有看卷啊我無法理解啊整個卷看完了不知道被告的身份那在看什麼卷"},{"start":747.764,"end":766.895,"text":"他不知道他現議員的身份看完了整個券不知道被告是現議員的身份這個部分就是說那個最高法院他們掌握這個多少這個部分我沒辦法帶他們回答那但是就是說最高法院不是啊 我無法理解啦所有的文書"},{"start":769.032,"end":796.583,"text":"從起訴一審二審中間所有強制處分的裁定應該都在最高法院的卷裡吧那個報告委員這一件因為從那個偵查開始就沒有那個申請羈押就是那個都沒有那個羈押也沒有那個羈押的替代處分連限制出境出海都沒有就他們給我的那個資料是沒有的你確定嗎有限制是這一件嗎"},{"start":799.209,"end":828.092,"text":"他有限制出境出海啊不是啊因為我聽副秘書長這樣講我真的會有一點害怕最高法院的法官看完全不知道他是縣議員那個委員我剛剛沒有這樣子的意思我只是說他們那個的他們那個的報告回覆那個意見是說沒有在那個犯罪事實中很明顯的呈現他的那個身份那但是就是這邊"},{"start":829.593,"end":853.344,"text":"最高法院他的認知是怎麼樣我想這個要由他們這個我沒有辦法代替他們回答但是我可以跟那個委員報告就是說最高審理的那個就是的那個依訴訟法那個結構呢他所審理的是上訴意旨所旨在的那個違法因此他會去卷裡頭所那個審查那個標的就只有在審查那個標的就是說"},{"start":854.204,"end":879.318,"text":"他們只在違法這個部分才會詳細的進入到卷裡頭去審閱這些卷中的我希望副秘書長或許回去再想一想今天你在這邊說的應循的內容第二個部分司法院或許管不到最高法院但可以善意的提醒最高法院"},{"start":880.78,"end":907.311,"text":"這是怎麼回事有必要發一個新聞稿讓社會大眾可以了解這樣子的人不屬於防逃要趕快通知的對象做了決定屏東地檢署說他不知道那顯然屏東地檢署沒有說謊因為最高法院真的沒有通知他從這個案子以後"},{"start":908.447,"end":934.463,"text":"防逃的機制你們前面開了很多會嘛顯然前面開的所有的會沒有把我們現在的這個洞補起來屏東地檢署不知道他要怎麼啟動最高法院的法官說他不知道他是屏東縣議員然後也不知道他曾經逃亡過嗎這些客觀的事實不是一定會在券裡面嗎"},{"start":936.793,"end":950.303,"text":"現在事情發生了 就說一句不知道您覺得社會大眾有辦法理解嗎那個最高他們近日也有那個開啟這些那個就是再繼續開會再繼續開會 沒有關係啊我們靜待這一次新的開會最後的會議結論是什麼會執行到什麼程度是"},{"start":964.963,"end":967.053,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院的副秘書長，還有法務部的次長。"],["主席：請王副秘，還有黃次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。上個會期，針對有關於法院在處理強制處分的事情，我提議做了兩個凍結案，今天司法院所提出來的報告讓我覺得非常困惑，司法院本院所提出來的報告，針對有關於科技監控的部分，你們在報告裡面寫說，112年10月4號跟112年10月24號召開了精進防逃措施聯繫會議。我們之所以提凍結案是希望司法院針對現在有關於科技監控所出現的重大問題到底要怎麼改善提出你們的報告，結果2025年提出來的報告講你們2023年做了什麼事情，副秘書長，你覺得這樣子的報告及格嗎？不是啦！你們送來立法院的報告，你要針對問題回答、解決問題，你2025年送來的報告說你2023年做了什麼，你會不會覺得太離譜？這樣的報告及格嗎？請副秘書長，你覺得你對於這樣的報告滿意嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：其實在今年以來司法院還有做了非常多的措施，這個報告確實沒有很周延展現……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，先停一下，如果今年以來司法院做了很多措施的話，那我就會期待反映在這個報告裡。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得有反映在這個報告裡嗎？這個報告送來之前，你有看過嗎？你真的有看過嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以讓刑事廳長回答嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：請刑事廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。跟委員報告一下，我們是把之前我們所做過的相關的一些措施一併羅列在我們的書面報告裡面，事實上在114年我們開了4次所謂的參訪活動，讓北部各地方法院……"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得這4次的參訪活動有解決問題嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：我們還有繼續在做，我們希望讓法官對科技監控的相關措施有更進一步的了解。"],["黃委員國昌：我接下來帶你們看，人民關心的是什麼問題，為什麼我當初會用這個案由來凍結預算？就是希望你們司法院能夠正視問題、解決問題，而不是提這種報告出來。你們司法院本院的報告講2023年做了什麼事情，我看了覺得很扯，結果高等法院的報告給1頁，這個報告副秘書長有看過嗎？你覺得滿意嗎？還是你覺得反正司法院送來的報告，這些立法委員也都不會看，隨便寫一寫，有文字在上面，交差了事就可以了，是這樣嗎？這個高等法院的報告您看過嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：你滿意嗎？您覺得滿意嗎？有回答問題嗎？您覺得咧？不是啊！大家在看直播，好像現在在定格，我只是請你給我一個答案，你也可以代表司法院的立場說我們看過了沒有問題、很滿意，或者是我們看過了，我們也覺得不滿意。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是不是請高院長來回復？因為這部分的預算，主責機關是高院。"],["黃委員國昌：我先帶你們看，為什麼我覺得你們的解凍報告沒有回答問題、沒有解答人民心中的疑惑，第一個問題，從之前我追鍾文智追到徐少東，大家有的一個共通的問題是說，這兩個人之前都逃亡過、被通緝過，結果沒有羈押就算了，那個是最嚴重限制人身自由的強制處分，結果連電子監控都不用，我問法務部的官員，法務部說這個審判中，是法官要處理的，當然，檢察官在審判程序當中有沒有依職權促請法官為注意，這個我會要求法務部，但問題是當發生這樣子的事情以後，連續質詢了兩個案子，你們完全沒有辦法回答，在這個報告裡面一個字都沒有提，大家不懂，之前已經跑過了、被通緝了，現在抓回來，抓回來接受審判，在審判程序進行當中，連電子監控都不用，然後人都跑了，會讓人民開始懷疑，這些有權有勢的人是怎麼亂搞都沒有關係嗎？司法院覺得這件事情需要檢討嗎？請司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，因為這個部分所有的處分都是屬於法官個案的審酌，司法行政真的不便置喙，司法行政能夠做的就是我們一直不斷地透過通函或者是透過行政會議跟法官宣達，提高他們對於這個部分的敏感度。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了啦，在法治國家當中，我們當然尊重司法獨立，但司法不是自外於社會，司法的公眾監督非常重要，一而再、再而三發生這樣子的案子，人民覺得很困惑，結果最近又多一個新的，這個議員又跑了，他前面也是一樣，他曾經跑過，結果連電子監控都不用，後來出現大家的批評是什麼？這個之前我全部都有調，法官在做強制處分的時候，前案紀錄表應該都在卷宗內吧！前案發生了什麼事情，法官應該都會知道吧！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那為什麼？是沒有看嗎？還是看了覺得沒有關係？之前雖然跑過，這次不會跑。看一下，地方人士說，所有的人都知道要跑，只有司法單位不知道。你看連莊瑞雄都笑出來了，所有的人都知道要跑了，只有法官不知道，我看召委應該也知道他要跑了啦，沒有，你笑成這個樣子啊！你也是屏東出來的，在地是怎樣，你莊瑞雄應該很熟，全世界都知道他要跑了，只有法官不知道，這種有權有勢的人，一而再、再而三發生這種事情，這是為什麼人民對於司法的信任會低落，這也是為什麼我會提出這個預算凍結案，希望你們回去檢討在作業程序上面是不是出了什麼問題，我們的法官需要什麼樣的協助，為什麼他們所作的強制處分跟最後的結果會落差這麼大？跟人民的認知會落差這麼大？這是為什麼我們當初要提出預算凍結案的理由，讓你們有機會去重新審視，希望你們好好看一看到底發生了什麼樣的狀況。","但從我提預算凍結案到現在，一個又一個還是全部都跑了，我本來期待在今天你們的書面報告裡面可以看到有意義的檢討，但我必須要負責任地跟司法院的長官報告，這個是虛應故事、交差了事，完全沒有回應問題。在一個又一個的案子當中，如果遭到這樣子的狀況，所有的人民都會問到底發生了什麼事情，當然人民沒有機會問司法院，但我們有機會問司法院，所以我們才會提這樣子的案子，希望司法院能夠強化這件事情的作為、解答人民的疑惑。","召委，你不會趕我下去啦？我還有時間嗎？就繼續嘛，好。最後一個問題，最高法院有沒有通知屏檢啟動防逃？因為媒體上面寫到屏檢是看到媒體相關報導才知情，我看了有一點嚇一大跳，所以這個事情要先釐清，媒體的報導司法院有沒有掌握？有嘛！你們了解的狀況是什麼？因為通常最高法院判決的結果，依照我知道的，他們實務上面的操作是星期五的時候會先公布主文，星期五公布主文就代表這個案子已經作決定了，最高法院有通知屏檢啟動防逃？什麼時候通知的？有掌握嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，這一件是在5月14號的時候評決的，當時確實沒有通知防逃，依相關內規的防逃辦法，這一件因為犯罪所得是一千多萬，判刑四年多，是不屬於重大矚目案件，但是我們也必須說，那個被告的身分是縣議員，是符合防逃的規定。據最高法院的報告，他們表示因為這一件在判決的犯罪事實中沒有很明顯呈現被告的身分，所以這個部分他們當時……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我聽不懂，最高法院處理上訴，最高法院的法官不是都要看過卷嗎？我有理解錯誤嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：整個卷看完了不知道被告的身分？我只有一個結論，就是根本沒有看卷啊！我無法理解，整個卷看完了卻不知道被告的身分，那他看什麼卷？"],["王副秘書長梅英：他不知道他是縣議員的身分。"],["黃委員國昌：看完了整個卷，不知道被告是縣議員的身分？"],["王副秘書長梅英：關於最高法院掌握多少，這個部分我沒辦法代他們回答，但是最高法院……"],["黃委員國昌：我無法理解，所有的文書從起訴、一審、二審到中間所有強制處分的裁定應該都在最高法院的卷裡吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這一件因為從偵查開始就沒有聲請羈押，都沒有羈押也沒有羈押的替代處分。"],["黃委員國昌：連限制出境、出海都沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：就他們給我的資料是沒有的。"],["黃委員國昌：你確定嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：但他是……"],["黃委員國昌：有啊！他有限制出境、出海啊！我聽副秘書長這樣講，我真的會有一點害怕，最高法院的法官看完卷不知道他是縣議員？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，我剛剛沒有這樣子的意思，我只是說他們報告回復的意見是表示沒有在犯罪事實中很明顯呈現他的身分，至於最高法院的認知是怎麼樣，我想這個要由他們回復，我沒有辦法代替他們回答，但是我……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以跟委員報告，依訴訟法的結構，最高法院所審理的是上訴意旨所指摘的違法，因此他會去卷裡頭索審查的標的，就只有在審查那個標的，也就是說，他們只在違法部分才會詳細進入到卷宗裡頭去審閱。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望副秘書長或許回去再想一想今天你在這邊應詢的內容。第二個部分，司法院或許管不到最高法院，但可以善意提醒最高法院這是怎麼回事，有必要發一個新聞稿讓社會大眾可以了解，這樣子的人不屬於防逃要趕快通知的對象？作了決定，屏東地檢署表示他們不知道，那顯然屏東地檢署沒有說謊，因為最高法院真的沒有通知他們。從這個案子可見，有關防逃的機制你們前面開了很多會，顯然前面開的所有的會沒有把現在的這個洞補起來，屏東地檢署不知道要怎麼啟動，最高法院的法官說他不知道他是屏東縣議員，然後也不知道他曾經逃亡過嗎？這些客觀的事實不是一定會在卷裡面嗎？現在事情發生了就說一句不知道，您覺得社會大眾有辦法理解嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：最高法院近日也有開啟這一些……"],["黃委員國昌：再繼續開會？沒有關係，我們靜待這一次新的開會最後的會議結論是什麼、會執行到什麼程度。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。幸好這個不是我們這一黨的，如果是我們這一黨的一定會被譙死。","接下來請王義川委員詢答，不好意思，讓你等比較久。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-18","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","王義川","吳宗憲","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","林淑芬","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","葉元之","羅智強","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","林倩綺","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-05-26"],"gazette_id":"1145302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警\n政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理 114 年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共 10 案；\n三、繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共3案","agenda_id":"1145302_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}