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出席委員19人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開會我們介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員我們先介紹我們在場的委員 不好意思 讓你們等來 第一位 上演導的 羅志強委員 讓你稍微笑一下"},{"start":2055.919,"end":2073.333,"text":"沒有跟你說賴瑞榮不輸你 也不輸你賴瑞榮委員還有吳斯亞委員請問沒你改建 你說話而已來 我們列席的官員賴瑞榮有啊 兩個都編導 沒辦法介紹你也給我串一下好不好"},{"start":2082.495,"end":2097.688,"text":"來 我們介紹列席的官員個人資料保護委員會籌備處我們的主任李士德主任還有我們行政院人事行政總處政務副人事長李秉舟那個政務副人事長"},{"start":2099.998,"end":2127.105,"text":"這些不介紹到的 其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單 我們就不再主委介紹並列入公報記錄了本次的議場 討論事項的排定我們就平安來審查 行政院還請審議個人資料保護委員會組織法的草案等9案現在進行提案說明及報告那進行委員提案說明 每一位委員發言時間"},{"start":2128.985,"end":2129.146,"text":"我不說兩分鐘,說三分鐘,繼續說"},{"start":2135.39,"end":2156.648,"text":"好 來來 請提案人沒人來了吳思堯委員吳思堯 剛才跟他理念想說的吳思堯 來進行提案說明不用齁你這個都有高度共識啦齁那請機關代表啊來做一個報告發言時間那個不用多久來請我們請個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任李仕德報告齁"},{"start":2169.048,"end":2181.496,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先生女士 大家午安今天奉邀列席貴人會就審查行政院函請審議還有委員王美惠 莊瑞雄等"},{"start":2182.523,"end":2205.966,"text":"委員羅廷偉 李燕秀等委員李坤成 羅美玲等委員吳秉瑞等委員陳亭飛等委員蔡玉瑜 陳煥廷等委員何新淳等委員吳思瑤 陳俊宇等分別領據個人資料保護委員會組織法草案共九案"},{"start":2206.551,"end":2217.595,"text":"代表本籌備處報告並被質詢 深感榮幸本籌備處緊究要點在述如下一 立法重點各自會為獨立機關"},{"start":2220.445,"end":2244.198,"text":"各自法的第一條之一的立法理由已經有明確去揭示考量各自法需監督之對象廣泛監督職權複雜且涉及公權力行政事項故採設置統籌性之獨立監督機關各自會來擔任各自法的主管機關以完足憲法第22條對人民資訊隱私權之保障二各自會之主要職長"},{"start":2246.141,"end":2267.887,"text":"有包含到整個個人資料保護的政策規劃法規之擬定諮詢行政監督管理違反案件之處理及處分科技應用模式的延期跨境傳輸的限制與執行國際合作及交流"},{"start":2269.195,"end":2281.608,"text":"那教育訓練以及宣導人才培育國內外各自保護法治政策執行及追蹤調查統計三各自會屬合一制機關那各自會"},{"start":2282.91,"end":2307.596,"text":"至委員五人到七人任期四年並採交錯任期制那委員應具的資格目前我們有列有個人資料保護法律資訊科技資通安全人權行政公共行政經濟商業管理或消費者保護等等學識經驗以因應各資資料監理事務的多元化"},{"start":2308.436,"end":2330.143,"text":"那委員均應獨立行使職權並謹守利益迴避原則二 設立各自會之預期效益未來各自會成立後將成為各自法的主管機關並透由配套修正各自法的部分條文賦予給各自會必要的監管權限對於原本全然欠缺外部監督的公務機關將優先納管"},{"start":2332.595,"end":2357.794,"text":"非公務境外部分各自會將優先納管尚無明確目的事業主管及管制司部門至於已經有明確目的事業主管及管制司部門則與各自法明訂過度條款與過度期間分階段將各目的事業主管及管制局管權限逐步再移交給各自會必利未來達成各自保護事務監督預言化及立法政策的目標"},{"start":2358.939,"end":2373.534,"text":"那中上各自會的成立未來還要統籌協調各級政府機關去落實個人資料保護的業務並透由於產業跟學界的合作來共同推動個人資料保護人才的培育促進"},{"start":2374.595,"end":2389.206,"text":"業界對於個人資料保護資源的投入有助於深化跟落實個人資料保護法制來共同建構安全可信賴的個人資料保護環境最後結語感謝各位委員長期關心個人資料保護的議題"},{"start":2391.087,"end":2410.325,"text":"那本組織法的草案是為我國邁向個人資料保護制度全面現代化的一個重要基石那上期我也能夠鼎力支持行政院所提的組織法草案的規劃 必力早日完成立法程序推動各自會正式設立展開我國個人資料保護制度的新紀元 謝謝"},{"start":2412.978,"end":2432.028,"text":"好 謝謝李仕德主任的報告那其餘書面報告機關有沒有口頭要補充沒有 現在有委員也到場了那其他的委員有沒有要進行提案說明的沒有"},{"start":2433.427,"end":2446.975,"text":"那我們現在機關代表報告完畢了 相關的書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那提案說明跟機關報告已進行完畢 現在來開始進行詢答那今天因為是聯席會 人數較多 兩個委員會 一個用27位"},{"start":2451.298,"end":2478.005,"text":"之後在討論條文的時候能有機會充分的表達意見啦本聯席會委員啦 詢答時間3分鐘啦 3加1啦有的還跟我建議兩分鐘啦 不然我用叫我們還是本委員會的3加1那非聯席委員會的委員啦 詢答時間就3分鐘我們就不再延長那下午2點30分截止發言登記請登記第一位賴瑞榮委員發言"},{"start":2482.557,"end":2486.14,"text":"好 謝謝召委了 請李主任來 請李主任李主任 這個憲法法庭明定在判決的三年內要建立這個獨立的監督機制也就是在今年的8月12號要完成"},{"start":2502.288,"end":2512.036,"text":"就是朝這個目標來完成那這幾天如果順利的假如今天出委員會那院會也順利完成了這個三讀程序在8月12前來成立應該沒問題吧"},{"start":2514.027,"end":2531.092,"text":"就是因為當然還會有一些接下來通過之後行政委還要指定施行日期然後還有要整個配合作用法的部分那因為作法另外還在經濟委員會要審不過我們還是就是努力先往這個方向從8月12號來完成然後符合憲法法庭的規定是我們努力"},{"start":2531.852,"end":2561.192,"text":"好那裡面當然其他很多的一些的這個公務機關的監督機制啦特別我看到裡面對於管理的制度要再加強確實跟最近很多發生的事件也有很多密切的相關我們來看剛剛這兩天剛剛發生的事情南投的選委會他的副總幹事就說了就是在查核的時候簽名的簡寫跟戶政系統登錄差異太大所以被剔除掉了我先問一下主任這個有沒有問題"},{"start":2563.273,"end":2577.66,"text":"跟委員報告當然在各司法的角度裡面它是一個框架性的立法公務機關在進行個人資料的利用我們在現有的15條跟16條當然是會有一個抽象性的說法說"},{"start":2578.72,"end":2604.976,"text":"要看他的法定職長的必要範圍內來進行利用若不在法定職長必要範圍內當然有一些例外的事由但是在現有這邊還夾雜一個很重要就是他有一個強烈的作用法在這邊已經先出現了那因為個資法是框架法很多東西最後會去看他法定職長這個法會回到公職人員就是目前選罷法授權去訂的公職人員罷免提議連署及查對作用辦法"},{"start":2605.296,"end":2628.327,"text":"如果這個辦法裡面大概已經有去揭示說機關在進行資料的一個需要去進行的收集跟利用對象已經有一個框架去做前置的收集那我們覺得這邊應該是先優先所以他應該是要先依照這個作業辦法裡面寄送查詢單去嗎直接因為簽名的潦草而就剔除掉這個顯然有爭議的嘛"},{"start":2629.768,"end":2651.882,"text":"這部分當然是由這個作用法中選會再來做因為這個也就是有很多的紛爭甚至於未來的部分怎麼樣去避免侵占到各資的問題這個都會有所以也希望這個組織成立之後這一塊事情要更多的加強去做溝通跟宣導避免讓公務員不小心觸法特別是所有的重要的各資公家機關都掌握都有的"},{"start":2652.022,"end":2676.906,"text":"但是各自不是能夠輕易的使用他的他必須很節制的使用那像這種的等於是他直接光這樣的講法的話他說跟戶政系統登錄差異太大那顯然如果照這樣的語意上他有去比對那比對恐怕就有問題了你怎麼可以輕易的去輕易的去用這樣的方式去做比對我覺得我用的這個就已經有侵犯到各自的問題更何況是你應該是先用查詢單所以像這個就是一個"},{"start":2677.706,"end":2694.506,"text":"變形的例子那更不要講像花蓮花蓮的部分也是齁這個也涉及到個資的部分他直接就透過整個戶政系統去做相關的一些調查照理說你有任何狀況也應該是有選委會來做相關的一些查詢跟釐清的動作你也可以寄出查詢"},{"start":2695.347,"end":2716.163,"text":"查詢單嘛怎麼會是透過護證系統那誰授權你做這件事情誰授權護證系統去做這件事情的那這件事情包括指揮者現在看來是所以被起訴了嘛看來是這個局長處長本身的指揮但是公務人員在接受到這樣指令的時候他也要如果是明知違法他也要必須要去做"},{"start":2717.224,"end":2727.043,"text":"他不能夠直接去做違法的事項我認為這個裡面都有很多未來需要加強去做宣導對於各自保護的加強宣導主任怎麼看 這些工作是不是應該持續要來加強"},{"start":2728.826,"end":2752.085,"text":"是 剛剛也跟委員有報告說未來的個資會成立之後首先當然會把公部門先去納管那有關於當然這個個案裡面有另外涉及到個資法41我再補充一個 因為時間到了你看像基隆的民政處長這個也是被收押進鑑他這個更誇張 他是直接把裡面的資料如果照他的起訴書是把裡面的資料"},{"start":2753.426,"end":2772.928,"text":"這個基隆市政府的資料拿出來給別人可以去做抄寫那這個更嚴重就等於是你形同是把內部的個資直接洩漏出去所以像這些問題這個下令者本身很嚴重但是執行者誰執行的為什麼可以執行就公務員對未來這件事情都必須非常非常謹慎包括甚至於很多的"},{"start":2773.368,"end":2788.674,"text":"一些重大的一些這個個資甚至於中共啦其他很多的不斷在竊取我們的一些個資甚至有的販賣個資的這些恐怕都是未來我就認為這個單位成立會要加強的工作這個主任有沒有什麼樣未來要做的加強的部分是 未來個資法"},{"start":2791.431,"end":2816.659,"text":"在我們的個資法作用法我們會有一個架構就是會有一個政策推進的這個會議我們會把上級機關跟中央目的世界機關也都會先找進來這部分當然跟內政部未來一定會有一個橫向協力有關於說個人資料保護的這樣一個制度的一個法制的一個遵循跟落實當然在部分會個人資料保護會成立之後一定會往這個方向"},{"start":2817.119,"end":2832.006,"text":"我們希望組織成立之後對於整個個人資料保護會有更嚴密的一些效果同時也有更強的宣導效果不要讓輕易的讓我們各自在輕易的外洩謝謝賴瑞榮委員的質詢接下來我們請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":2848.343,"end":2859.267,"text":"謝謝 那我們請各支會的李主任還有主計處的廖專委委員早 委員午安好 謝謝"},{"start":2871.654,"end":2880.041,"text":"那我們先請到李主任你們今天的報告有提出來就是說你們是相當於三個獨立的三級的獨立機關那我想請問一下"},{"start":2882.02,"end":2902.339,"text":"我看到草案第三條說到就是採合議制就是委員總共五到七人可是呢主委副主委專委兩人都是院長指派那這樣變成是五分之四還是六分之四還是七分之四還有一半都是院長指派的人那這樣子要怎麼樣獨立我想請教主任"},{"start":2904.307,"end":2915.699,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前現階段他是依照我們組織法所任命之後然後獨立去所以我跟你講第一個我的疑問就是"},{"start":2916.772,"end":2942.259,"text":"你裡面四個人是院長指派那你的委員才五到七人你等於是過半都是院長指派但是你只要過半就可以開罰那這樣子的合議制還有意義嗎因為都是執行院長的意見啊主任是跟委員報告就是目前當然現階段整個獨立機關的這樣的一個設置在河安跟"},{"start":2942.932,"end":2954.497,"text":"我們的運輸安全也是有這樣的一個設置其實我們目前先用河岸會的那個設計只是做我們參考的那你這樣等於我還是聽的搞不清楚但你還是沒有講到我的答案"},{"start":2955.755,"end":2983.426,"text":"因為我的題目啦就說有一半的人都是院長指派的人那這個要怎麼樣讓他能夠行政獨立這是我第一個意見那尤其是我認為目前我國的NCC還有中選會其實爭議都蠻多的那今天我們要讓你成立一個新的那個委員會但是在裡面成員的指派又都是院長可以指派超過半數的人那他要怎麼樣獨立這是我第一個問題那你剛剛說你們是借鏡哪個獨立機關"},{"start":2986.006,"end":3005.836,"text":"目前因為三級機關我們也參考了核安會跟我們的運安會那因為本身組織法也去也有強調這一點他必須要本於他自己的一個依照法律要獨立行使職權那我就說嘛我就還是回到最基本問題你一直告訴我你是獨立行使"},{"start":3007.176,"end":3034.986,"text":"職權的機關但是我看到的是過半不管你採五到七人的哪一個人數過半都是院長所指定的人這就是我的問題那我再請教一下你們說我分三個區塊第一個區塊是公務機關優先各自全面監管第二個是非公務機關那第三個是目的事業主管機關的非公務機關那我想請教第一個公務機關的部分那如果以後法院他的裁判書裡面如果有"},{"start":3035.706,"end":3059.54,"text":"那個不小心揭露一些 或是故意揭露一些合一性侵等等的個資呢 你們要怎麼裁法你要對法官開法嗎 還是對機關開法那部分有關於法院 因為本身在憲法就已經有保障說那個法院在行使他的那個審判的話是獨立行使所以那部分的話還是要按照現行的規定所以法院如果違反你們就無從處理嗎"},{"start":3060.581,"end":3088.566,"text":"因為這個在國外包含在歐盟他們也是直接有規定獨立專人機關不可以去涉入那個審判沒關係我想說意思就是沒有辦法處理好那這是答案然後再來我請問我剛剛講第三個那如果是中華電信然後那個它是NCC管以後歸你們管還有銀行的各支這些本來是金管會管現在改成歸你們管嗎那我想請教一下那像這樣子的話那以後你們的人力足夠嗎"},{"start":3090.575,"end":3109.971,"text":"跟委員報告目前現在我們先設計未來在作用法部分設計一個六年的條款會分階段兩年兩年回收然後同時再去評估我們現有的人力這個部分還要再跟人種因為這個量很大很驚人我在這邊先跟你說明一下是是是謝謝委員這量很大到底你有沒有辦法吃得下來是你們第一個要考量的問題感謝委員"},{"start":3110.572,"end":3119.666,"text":"然後再來就是說我看到你們說歸管的過渡期可是草案都沒有提到耶那這樣子的話那像我剛剛講到中華電信各家銀行有違反個資的問題"},{"start":3122.028,"end":3144.921,"text":"那個裁罰的權責機關是誰 訴願的機關又是誰 你可以跟我講嗎好 跟委員報告 目前現在在作用法第51條之一是規定在分管的時間的時候 還是由原分管的中央目的執行員來進行裁罰但是他裁罰做的處分的話 他的訴願不會再往其他地方跑 是直接到我們這邊那還蠻特別的耶 這跟訴願法的規定不一樣"},{"start":3146.642,"end":3161.525,"text":"所以你們用特別規定來處理對 直接到我們這邊來所以我們是用這個來控制好 那這個要宣導明確喔因為人民對於溯源的程序他的理解會原本溯源法規範對 作用法有明確規定好 那再來喔最後啦 我請教一個問題因為我看到你們啊"},{"start":3162.606,"end":3191.699,"text":"草案的第10條又要大量聘用約聘人員50人那我想說哇 又是約聘因為其實我很擔心我覺得國家怎麼走到最後都是約聘因為約聘它就不是經由正常的公務員文官任用的方式不是一般那種考試進來的嘛那約聘到最後會不會又變成是酬庸性質這是我們立法委員應該要監督的部分那我想請問一下主任這麼大量的約聘人數那以後會不會又變成是酬庸呢"},{"start":3192.991,"end":3219.839,"text":"跟委員報告 不會啦 因為我們上限是控制在50人齊二就是因為目前現在因為監管的事業多元化尤其還涉及到很多AI新的科技的發展還有對於說集合有些可能這些實務界我們公部門都找不到這種專業的人士剛好又是做公務員所以我們還是有這樣的一個需求沒有 我就說我的意見還是這個啦 約聘會不會變成酬庸 我想不管是哪一個政黨 只要立委"},{"start":3220.299,"end":3239.338,"text":"都會在意這件事情你們那個監督議員化我不是說完全反對但監督議員化就會變成是事權的變成統一了那事權統一之後又會發生另外一個問題就是將來我們每個人都會擔心的就是會不會把這個委員會變成是整數一級用"},{"start":3239.958,"end":3261.329,"text":"不要說整數不同黨啦同黨裡面我看也是殺到瘋了啦最近有一些政黨內部不同派系也是殺到瘋了會不會變成是主導的派系去殺他不喜歡的派系我不知道啦我也沒有說哪一個政黨啦會不會變這樣這就是我認為監督議員化可能產生的副作用主任"},{"start":3262.649,"end":3285.031,"text":"我相信你會有你的說法啦那我在這邊就是跟主任說明一下這個東西千萬不要發生好嗎就是一個委員會的成立是要保護國人不是拿來做政治鬥爭的好不好好謝謝我們吳宗憲委員的詢答其實這也都很寶貴的意見我們接下來請程廷飛委員"},{"start":3296.837,"end":3322.153,"text":"謝謝莊委那我們是不是請李主任請李主任委員午安主任其實我們在經濟委員會你清楚我一直都在追這個進度因為我們的個人資料保護如果沒有一個委員會正式的成立一切都是假的可是我們現在更擔心的是委員會成立之後"},{"start":3323.214,"end":3345.905,"text":"你沒有可以推脫的機會了就是說當我們個人資料保護沒有保護好就是我們的責任了好 我現在要問當我們委員會成立之後我們怎麼保護各自我們怎麼保護各自有公部門 非公部門好 我們怎麼去處理我們先講公部門"},{"start":3346.908,"end":3356.709,"text":"跟委員報告雖然個人資料保護委員會他是獨立機關但是我們目前設計他不是孤獨機關所以在另外經濟委員會也要省的"},{"start":3357.268,"end":3383.337,"text":"即將要審的個人資料保護的修正草原我們有放一條很重要就是一至二條就是現有委員會他一來他會去成立一個新的政策平台我們叫做政策推進會議然後在一至二條的第一項清楚賦予給所有的公務機關的上級機關以及目的事業他的目的事業主管機關都一樣要有"},{"start":3384.498,"end":3396.737,"text":"這個去幫忙完成整個個人資料保護鑑度的這個義務主任你這個講法是表面是表面重點是你要怎麼去保護我必須說的現在"},{"start":3398.703,"end":3423.338,"text":"在很多的區塊包括詐騙包括等等說真的各自是最關鍵的我們才是三級獨立機關可是我們怎麼對於二級機關去給他們要求就算有這個平台我知道我們的法規裡面我們有自己設了一個能夠未來有"},{"start":3424.278,"end":3435.235,"text":"一些工具可以處理的可是這些工具它畢竟是一個表面你們是三級機關你們怎麼對二級機關去要求他們要盡到保護的責任"},{"start":3436.052,"end":3457.481,"text":"那也跟委員報告剛剛說這個平台沒有錯它的確是目前看到外顯但是本身我們往下有兩個很重要的一個工具就是對公務機關非公務機關因為都有個人資料保護安全維護的義務那一個是定在我們未來的18條那一個是定在我們20條之一雙方我們這邊會定一個共同安全維護的一個基準"},{"start":3458.041,"end":3473.57,"text":"那本來都有 前面都已經講了說 他們都有一個責任跟義務上級跟目的 中央目的有責任去push自己監管的行業 或者是自己監管的下級機關那同時 每個公務部門或是事務部門我們在未來設計的18條跟20條之一 我們那還要再去訂辦法"},{"start":3477.853,"end":3495.392,"text":"他們要去落實要再訂執法嘛對不對對 那部分是一個很重要的重點是抓緊他們就好所以其實因為你們的相關法律我們都看到不要看了重點在哪裡要落實你們的關鍵在執法就是說你們要怎麼去落實對母法是"},{"start":3496.013,"end":3518.235,"text":"一個標準但是重點在執法你們的執法是不是可以真正到位從公部門到非公部門像我們看的非公務機關他們如果有遇到各自的事故請問你要怎麼要求他們要去有應變措施或是保存事故的一個記錄你們要怎麼要求他"},{"start":3519.155,"end":3534.947,"text":"對 目前現在當然在我們現行的母法條文裡面12條會去要求 每個公部門這些都是要求啊 公部門或許我們有彼此的約束 可是非公務機關呢非公務機關我們當然後面 非公務機關我們還有對應的罰則啦所以他講說譬如說外企所以也是罰則而已嘛當然不只只有罰則 我們還是會去進行相關的這個調查"},{"start":3544.574,"end":3560.835,"text":"還要進行糾正主任我必須說的今天當我們這個委員會成立之後壓力就來了過去你可以說我們還沒有委員會我們現在要趕快成立所以我們希望趕快掛牌趕快完成可是現在正式成立之後"},{"start":3561.636,"end":3589.54,"text":"你沒有可以推脫的地方了公務單位我們怎麼盡到各自保護非公務單位我們要怎麼要求他這些我們一定要有一套的SOP我們現在有了母法我們的執法要定得更精準更精準喔 你聽懂我這句話更精準因為現在所有的各自問題我們都清楚"},{"start":3591.196,"end":3614.854,"text":"問題在哪裡所以你們要把像現在面臨所謂的洩漏擱置的狀況要從執法定的更精準來做約束這個部分主任麻煩我們的期待很高謝謝好 謝謝陳廷輝委員那些作用法的保溫那可能大家就要比較多費點心了接下來請沈發慧委員質詢"},{"start":3624.291,"end":3642.977,"text":"主席請李主任請李主任委員午安李主任今天因為只有四分鐘所以我們本來有一些問題我想要要這個再精簡這個我們這個個人資料保護委員會最主要是因為因應這個111年憲判第13號認為就是說這個個人資料保護法的這個"},{"start":3649.679,"end":3667.668,"text":"這個沒有獨立監督機制沒有建立相關法制所以要求我們在這個三年內宣誓三年內所以正好是今年的8月11宣誓是111年8月12所以在今年8月11之前理論上是要掛牌對不對"},{"start":3669.552,"end":3681.34,"text":"就是我們朝這個方向前進也要看今天這個會不會順利通過啦那剛剛這個我特別也關心一個部分剛剛前面也有委員提到啦我們這個"},{"start":3683.135,"end":3709.309,"text":"個人資料保護委員會目前在按照這個草案的第一條它是相當中央三級獨立機關那中央三級獨立機關目前有的好像像河安會像這個運安會這也是三級獨立機關那我看我們的草案的第三條這部分剛才這個有委員特別關心這部分我事實上也是特別關心這個部分我們在這個第三條裡面第一項規定就是說本會委員會置五到七人那這個"},{"start":3710.782,"end":3730.674,"text":"更重要的是在第二項,第二項裡面有說主任委員、副主任委員由這個專任委員由行政院長任命,其餘委員由行政院院長就有關機關人員或學者專家分別聘任之。主任,我的有關機關是什麼意思?哪一些機關是有關機關,哪一些機關是無關機關呢?"},{"start":3733.885,"end":3749.432,"text":"目前現在因為這個的體制我們在其他的三級獨立機關也有這樣的用語有關機關好像沒有吧有有關機關那我們有關個資的部分你現在可以舉出哪個例子是無關機關嗎"},{"start":3751.213,"end":3768.904,"text":"他應該是這個文字的意思是說院長可以針對比如說我們今天講需要說科技的部分需要那個抒發部這邊有一個人來擔任那可能就會變成這邊的所謂有關機關不過目前這部分只是一個這個時間的關係再來就是"},{"start":3772.006,"end":3785.153,"text":"我們只測五到七人啦齁這個但是你按照這個第三條第四項齁本這個本會委員應具有的這個相關的學識經驗齁就包括個人資料保護法律資訊科技"},{"start":3787.272,"end":3809.649,"text":"這個資通安全、人權、公共行政、經濟、商業、管理、消費者保護光你們列出來的領域就有11個領域但是你們只設5到7人所以不管你們怎麼聘除非你可以聘到一個人他一個人就有4、5種專長不然的話你5到7人連你們自己所說的涵蓋的領域都做不到啊你們自己這些領域就包含11個領域了但是你也只設5到7人"},{"start":3811.212,"end":3826.084,"text":"是 跟委員報告第一個啦第二個這個我來看法治的規定你按照這個其實這個按照這個行政院的這個聘用各級機關聘用人員注意事項"},{"start":3828.15,"end":3855.848,"text":"這是另外一個其實這個我看其他的委員會都5到11人5到11人其實按照法令你們也是可以設置5到11人三級的獨一機關可以設5到11人你們為什麼把委員你們這個怎麼在草案上面把委員限縮到5到7人這部分是我個人有疑慮的這個我們等一下希望在主條的時候你能夠回答這個問題因為這個你5到7人再加上一個主委一個副主委"},{"start":3857.469,"end":3874.54,"text":"你主委副主委以外再有一個委員出席三個人就可以開會了三個人開會裡面兩個人同意就可以通過了這個我個人是有疑慮的再來最後不好意思再佔用一點時間就是你們未來預計的編制人員是多少"},{"start":3876.052,"end":3902.828,"text":"目前這部分還在跟人總做討論你們有沒有預計目前還沒有那你們目前現在有多少人目前籌備會目前籌備處他的組織員額是89然後我們的預算員額現在是53那我們現有人數是46現有人數46啦對但是你們這第10條你們剛剛就講這個約聘人員約聘人員你們可以以不超過50人不超過50不超過50人也就是說你們現在可以全約聘"},{"start":3903.849,"end":3925.146,"text":"如果以你們現在的規模46個人 你們還不到50個人你全部通通約聘 沒有半個公務人員 也符合這一條餒是 當我們現在這個 這個你們以50人為上限 這個在我看在這個機關現在所有的組織條裡面是幾乎是幾乎是我沒看過的啦齁大部分 你按照這個行政院及所屬機關聘用人員注意事項他說其緣而已 不超過"},{"start":3926.768,"end":3948.77,"text":"該機關總預算人數百分之五為原則欸百分之五欸你們這個五十人齁我瞭解有一些立法律是有那個原額的上限啦你們這個用五十人做上限齁但是你們你們這個跟百分之五為原則這個百分之五差太遠了啦差太遠了是這個部分我想等一下我們在這個足調的時候我們再來再來來探討再跟委員就講"},{"start":3949.11,"end":3957.315,"text":"好 謝謝沈發慧委員差不多聚焦的問題就越來越集中了我們接下來請烏思瑤委員質詢生日快樂今天不是韓院長的生日快樂是莊昭偉的生日快樂謝謝 大家都快樂謝謝有請主任請李主任委員快樂"},{"start":3978.69,"end":4004.349,"text":"謝謝希望今天的審查會是一個好的結果讓我們來接軌國際法制面當然作用法是重要的經濟委員會正在審但是組織面就是今天的這個獨立機關能夠來獲得委員會的核可我想這都同等重要啊夏業當然這個是恢復憲法保障的基本權利而且我一再的強調接軌國際好我想朝野的委員都會支持夏業"},{"start":4005.35,"end":4019.818,"text":"那作用法經濟委員會正在審查我等一下問的問題其實很多其實跟作用法會比較有關係但我倒是想要看看我們的主委的一些理念上的分享是不是能夠給我們多一點的意見的回饋"},{"start":4021.899,"end":4047.27,"text":"現在發生了很多的個案當然從花蓮市政府基隆市政府到南投選委會都發生了濫用公務體系的互證系統去侵害個資好那政黨政治各方面的政治上的操作我都不再提而是我在說確實公部門極有可能因為他掌有國家最大的"},{"start":4048.65,"end":4071.666,"text":"公权力所授权的个人资料所以我们更彰显我们需要一个独立专业中立的机关否则现在如果以眼前台湾正在发生的个人资料的保护恐怕就是罢免案的资料外泄这更可以凸显我们需要一个独立的"},{"start":4073.035,"end":4084.532,"text":"專業的中立的機關否則像現在花蓮基隆南投發生的事情除了當事人去提起法律上的權利的捍衛之外我們幾乎沒有什麼樣子的"},{"start":4085.749,"end":4103.877,"text":"行政上的力量可以來阻卻或者是來懲處對不對下一頁同樣的在中央部門教育部最近也發生了是不是教育部的葉秉成次長涉及不當的去洩露學生的個資他現在自請暫時"},{"start":4106.578,"end":4130.571,"text":"請假等候調查我也用這個例子來彰顯不管中央的公務部門或是地方的公務部門當發生了公權力部門公部門對於公民的個人資料外洩的時候我們就需要一個獨立的組織來做一個公正的一個處理所以這是我們為什麼需要趕快來讓這個委員會上路喔夏業"},{"start":4132.065,"end":4156.628,"text":"但我的幾個問題當然第一個大問題是一個大災問我們很多的人權單位都希望說長城而言希望是二級機關而不是三級機關就您個人撇開等一下要審的條例啦您認為三級機關就足夠嗎如果邁向二級機關二級機關應當是一個更強而有力對於各自的保護是不是"},{"start":4158.786,"end":4175.453,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前當機關的醜色一來當然也是要尊重人手目前現在的組織我知道但是現在有困難嘛是然後二來就是確實我們在整個研究跟了解國外國內當然也沒有說要把那個說整個機關組織層級要用最高規格的"},{"start":4178.988,"end":4201.739,"text":"那我們以前我還在國安會的時候也有跟歐盟司法總署我們有先做過錯談他們給我們一個觀念因為他們不太理解我們台灣怎麼會去分二級跟三級對他們而言就是獨立行使法定職權你就是可以去監督你的監督對象那其他的機關是按照法律受監督的嘛所以這部分我記得當時候歐盟司法總署有給我們一個建議他說"},{"start":4203.12,"end":4220.882,"text":"不管你們國家是最後要用二級三級重點是在於你們現有的那個職長可以去對於說作用法可以去落實所以假如以這樣來看的話我們目前現在其實先看說因為各司法有一個蠻特別的它是一個單一法令很完整的其實它就推展一個很重要的觀念就是"},{"start":4221.523,"end":4240.099,"text":"個人資料保護的一個制度我們俗稱說PrincipalPersonal InformationManagement System能夠落入不管公部門、私部門的整個業務跟職務推展的過程那以這個整個觀念如果能夠落實進去我們剛剛在討論說包含說外洩啊這些情況它就很明顯開始會被"},{"start":4241.8,"end":4258.912,"text":"您說的我都同意因為時間到了我認為先求有再求好長程而言如果可以因為因應現在的數位經濟發展數位科技的發展可能更有我認為Maybe someday二級機關是一個可行的方向但現在馬上就要審"},{"start":4260.433,"end":4276.366,"text":"先求有再求好我可以接受三級機關但是下一頁跟作用法我有兩個問題跟作用法比較相關啦齁您剛才講歐盟給我們很多經驗分享GDPR所規範的其實有兩個部分第一個對於現實通報"},{"start":4278.047,"end":4289.451,"text":"我們現在如果在個資法修法限時通報只有寫限時然後有主管機關定之但是如果以歐洲歐盟的標準是一旦發生侵害個資的事件當事人可以提請72小時向經理機關通報第一個有明確的是72小時"},{"start":4293.692,"end":4309.363,"text":"第二個在違規罰則的部分不管對公部門或私部門歐盟是罰得非常重的非常非常重的一千萬歐元以上或者是兩千萬歐元以上或者是企業年收入的百分之二或百分之四這當然對於私部門但是我們現在各執法的修法裡頭對於非公務機關才有罰還但是公務機關只有相關公務人員的懲戒"},{"start":4317.488,"end":4325.877,"text":"這兩個部分現實通報的期限跟違規法則的提升補強您是不是認同我們可以再精進未來再修作用法的時候"},{"start":4326.992,"end":4351.894,"text":"這一部分的話我們作用法我們也會就是要啟動第二階段的那個修法好一樣先求有再求好我最後一個問題就是回到今天的審的我也非常認同剛剛審發會委員說的不管是我們現在是和安會也好這未來的各資會其實運安會9到11人我認為相對是合宜的一個委員的組成"},{"start":4352.975,"end":4370.009,"text":"五到七在領域的局限或者是這個extend這個部分我都認為九到十一也許是一個比較好的選擇我們稍後再一起逐條時候討論 好 謝謝好 謝謝吳思瑤委員的質詢我們接下來請鄭正前委員謝謝主席 我想請一下籌備會的李主任請李主任"},{"start":4385.222,"end":4409.291,"text":"委員午安午安我在想說因為我們8月11號之前要設立這個個案會就是我在想說這部分的時候我覺得我們也是站在一個肯定的角度來看不過針對這個部分我想特別針對第10條這邊來請教一下因為我們看到想先請教主任我們目前編制的正式編制員額是多少人"},{"start":4412.68,"end":4438.166,"text":"籌備處籌備處的組織員額89然後預算員額現在給我們53那現有人數 89然後53現有46因為我們其他就放高考因為在這邊的時候因為第10條這邊的時候我覺得這邊很特殊因為它針對那個各智慧這邊除了正式員的編制之外還得依聘用人員聘用條例規定聘用個人資料保護數位科技與應用資安"},{"start":4438.886,"end":4466.341,"text":"資通安全 積核 人權 經濟管理 產業政策 國際合作等相關領域的人員其實平均原額不得超過50人已經超過一半以上但我在想說這個部分是不是適合因為我看了其他的行政院下面的一個三級獨立機關都沒有這樣子的規定運安會沒有 核安會沒有不當黨委員會也都沒有這只有我們現在那個就是"},{"start":4467.774,"end":4471.784,"text":"新的委員會當中會有一個這樣的條例那你覺得適合嗎"},{"start":4473.817,"end":4496.802,"text":"跟我們報告就是雖然現有獨立機關那邊沒有這樣子的一個條文但我們另外一次參考了包含說經管會還有那個書發部他們的組織法都有類似的這樣的一個規定所以他這邊就產生很多像書發部之前就會產生很多人事相關的一些問題啊因為在這裡頭你如果說是一個數位安全"},{"start":4497.962,"end":4519.697,"text":"相關的專業的人士我們還可以理解可是你連人權產業政策國際合作部分這相關的公務人員裡面大家都很厲害那針對這個部分的時候我覺得在這個條例當中的時候第十條大開用人方便的大門的時候我們會擔心以後這個機構的時候會不會產生一些用人不當或者是為私的一個角度"},{"start":4520.057,"end":4544.784,"text":"所以我們針對這部分我們覺得要多加一個限制但是今天時間非常的短所以我這邊也特別再請教一下因為我們看到這整個條例當中的時候基本上只有一個事後究責的一個部分沒有一個事前預警的一個機制在那我們看到了歐盟的一般資料保護規定就是GDPR的部分或者韓國的個資法他們都有提前示警的一個機制在"},{"start":4545.858,"end":4552.767,"text":"我們的這個部分我們的各自法當中的時候是不是需要去做一個相關的配套的修法"},{"start":4556.189,"end":4575.255,"text":"這部分跟委員報告就是通常在國外這個他不會需要去入房他是把他放在安全維護衣服上面希望說公部門私部門譬如說剛講用資通訊系統你如果資通訊系統最好可能用雙英子的認證的方式假如今天有人拿到你的帳密然後要登錄進去他可能就會先給你一個"},{"start":4576.135,"end":4599.103,"text":"另外一個簡訊通知說現在有人登入你的帳名那他就會立刻提醒所以那個不用到去說吧那個部分當然都是用安全維護義務去push機關多採用一些好的一些措施因為你之前你有提到說要針對那個GDPR的部分去做一些參考那我們也希望這些預警的機制要把它加強進去因為否則到時候碰到事情發生就要來捕捉都很難"},{"start":4600.063,"end":4610.255,"text":"那我另外一部分是針對我們相關新的委員會當中的時候對於政黨人士的一個比例目前是要求二分之一是不是能夠把他下修到三分之一你覺得適不適合這個部分我們現在看到現有的獨立機關"},{"start":4617.15,"end":4638.495,"text":"大部分都是二分之一啦NCC公平會還有運安會跟河安我們是先比照尤其是運安跟中選會三分之一啦那我在想說這就是一個考量的狀態那時間的問題我在說我特別提出來的需要說我們特別去考量最後一個部分因為我們現在算第一階段那到時候我先"},{"start":4639.856,"end":4652.794,"text":"舉個個案喔因為台興銀行最近被金管會罰了六百萬就是因為他們個資外洩那我想說在這樣的案子當中的時候我們的個資會有沒有角色可不可以請主任說明一下"},{"start":4654.571,"end":4683.11,"text":"未來的個人資料保護委員會成立的話我看說我們會有個六年的分管或回收的機制有明確目的時間的話會同時會共管但是等到六年之後回收的話全部都會有個人資料保護委員管六年之後再全部都是各自會管對不對這六年當中就還在一個過渡的狀態那這六年當中我們老百姓的權益怎麼辦因為針對台信銀行這個案子的時候很多人反應就是說他已經各自外洩了四年啊是"},{"start":4683.45,"end":4712.397,"text":"一千多個人受到權益上的損害罰六百萬那有人覺得第一個是處理得太慢第二個狀態的時候就說相較起來他個資外資的成本也不太高啊所以針對這個部分就是罰則的部分我們也希望說個資會這邊能夠盡快扮演起這樣的角色因為目前除了政府部門跟人民的個資有很大的關係之外另外就是金融機構跟醫院都跟"},{"start":4712.797,"end":4735.936,"text":"每一個老百姓的個資有很大的一個關係所以我們希望這兩個領域當中的時候不要拖到六年因為這六年當中我們不曉得還有多少人的個資會受到侵害權益會遭殃好不好我們希望這部分能夠把最優先的部分把它接軌起來這六年我們還是會跟他有個協調聯繫的我們有個政策推進會他們要加入所以我們會去了解他們的情況"},{"start":4737.057,"end":4742.341,"text":"OK 好 謝謝謝謝鄭 鄭前 鄭委員接下來 我們有請楊瓊英委員詢答馬上來謝謝主席來 各自會請李主任委員午安"},{"start":4758.905,"end":4783.086,"text":"主任好我想對於公司部門都應當要有這樣子的一個應對措施那當然本席也極力支持我們務必要有成立專責機構來推動跟來執行保護政策跟監管措施所以首先要請教外界很多人在質疑就是說我們目前各自會是偏重在諮詢以及"},{"start":4785.588,"end":4806.75,"text":"這個政策的建議那草案內當然有提起是掌管違反個人資料保護法案件之處理及處分但是外界呢有很多的很深的聲音也就是說認為是欠缺了像是調查權 裁罰權 行政指導跟命令權"},{"start":4808.231,"end":4825.441,"text":"那還有一個監管的力道跟他在整個職權範圍呢都認為是限縮到很極限所以在這樣的情況之下要請問到目前為止我們的現況有辦法有效能的來執行這個個資保護法嗎請做說明"},{"start":4827.961,"end":4850.109,"text":"是,跟委員報告,在作用法那邊的設計,本來就是有賦予給未來的個人資料保護委員會,在他剛好已經有簽署有六年對於非公務機關,雖然說會逐步回收,但是在他自己在行使職權的時候,我們第三章之一,對公部門、私部門兩邊都有我們的監管法規的規定,"},{"start":4851.65,"end":4877.509,"text":"那所以這部分我們未來個人資料保護法會成立之後會依照就是新修之後的個人資料保護法來做他該有的監督的這樣的一個責任尤其是剛剛有提到說個資法的18條對公務機關的安全維護義務然後非公務機關是我們20條之一那邊有一個兩邊都會有一個這個授權條款要去訂更詳細整個這個執法非常的重要"},{"start":4878.329,"end":4893.77,"text":"第18條跟第20條之一但是重點就是在於既然成立我們希望要有效能所以本席在這邊也就是說各自會在得知資料外洩之後發生之後他才需要通知當事人"},{"start":4895.926,"end":4914.614,"text":"是有公務機關跟備工才通知嗎?他已經知道有才通知他但是我們來看看國際的做法國際看到異常登錄或者是交易等他就能夠提前的預警的來通知甚至調查的做法"},{"start":4915.775,"end":4936.717,"text":"那是措施 用這種措施提早那你認為呢就不錯啊 但是因為這部分去各個行業 假如在設計你的資料收集處理利用的過程裡面有一個多因子的這種方式你有一個預檢的效果當然是成效會更好啊沒有錯 但是這個不用到修法 這個本來在"},{"start":4937.197,"end":4940.541,"text":"我們剛才說18條跟20條之一執法會這麼做嗎請教會不會這麼做會不會這麼做 會不會做預警措施會不會這麼做我們會往這方面來前進往這方面來定定之"},{"start":4954.378,"end":4969.767,"text":"因為我們還要特別強調就是說你如果賦予他有主動調查命令矯正以及暫停處分那這樣子你有實質的監理權限是不是更加的"},{"start":4971.332,"end":4989.939,"text":"讓人民得到一個保障 也就是能夠真正的來落實這個效能 請說明因為在我們目前的全線的設計第三章之一公部門跟私部門 我們兩邊也都有賦予給它相關剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":4990.336,"end":5010.715,"text":"那公部門當然是發現的時候我們去調查 發覺這個東西不能我們就會做命改正非公務機關那邊也是一樣 會有這樣的一個機制同時會去進行那接下來我們再看看GDPR他們的做法他們在監管單位他是有建立一個舉報 申訴"},{"start":5014.489,"end":5043.192,"text":"處理以及跨境合作的機制是請教我們在這方面的功能有吶喊進來嗎是這部分因為本來就內涵在我們最傳統所看到人民陳情的功能裡面就會有含到說有人會來檢舉跟舉報所以那個本來就以跨境合作機制跨境合作機制最多就是就是有關於涉及到資料國際傳輸我們有沒有要去進行限制那這裡面會有一些合作機制我們現在國家已經有加入GDPR"},{"start":5046.013,"end":5068.678,"text":"這個方面我們都有加入跨境合作機制在目前來講是非常非常的重要這一點我們要審慎為之那麼當然為什麼會提問這個呢也就是各自為未來的角色是什麼因為我們往前看重大的各自外洩的事件頻傳我們看到輔仁大學他連輻射醫院他都各自外洩"},{"start":5070.287,"end":5085.957,"text":"我們也看到包括了健保署華航Iron還有成品都有這樣的事件那麼還有一個最嚴肅的一個面向也就2023年的時候那麼有在暗網的論壇裡頭您是分手"},{"start":5088.941,"end":5107.493,"text":"販售我們全國互證的資料2300萬筆而且他的雷同度非常的高但是到目前為止到目前為止政府只告訴我們什麼只告訴我們說他也不查源頭他只有告訴社會大眾說不是從非來自官方"},{"start":5108.482,"end":5126.689,"text":"就這樣子就像是一個無頭公案啊告訴我們說不是從哪裡來的非官方來的那我們當然人民要知道啊到底有沒有這回事啊那到底我們的個資有沒有得到保護啊我們都得不到政府告訴我們"},{"start":5127.489,"end":5154.892,"text":"所以在這種情況之下各自會的角色相對的是非常非常的重要所以我最後還是要強調各自會它是多元跟獨立的但是我也希望也就是能夠讓公民的一個參與他們的聲音務必要加入才能夠真正的我希望達到一個公開透明的這個制度所以我具體建議除了公開透明的制度之外"},{"start":5155.572,"end":5183.432,"text":"我們是不是應當會來各自成立的時候我們要定期的來發布調查的報告開放會議的記錄甚至有人提建議喔 就剛才我特別講的希望讓公民 讓民間的聲音能夠加入進來才能夠真正的完善了整個的各自保護機制您的看法呢對 我們在第八條版也就設計整個一些開會做成是硬公開的公開透明好 謝謝"},{"start":5184.853,"end":5210.122,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊英委員 接下來請鄭天才委員質詢好 主席有請李主任請李主任還有另外也是姓李 李次長"},{"start":5213.964,"end":5237.095,"text":"兩位好 委員午安這個今天上次在經濟委會也有質詢過這個應該要趕快提出來那現在這個草案送來了按照111年宪判至第13號的一個判決這個三年內 到8月就三年了"},{"start":5238.632,"end":5247.021,"text":"如果沒有研會就算今天我研會審查完也沒有辦法三讀通過所以這個是還好有研會"},{"start":5249.646,"end":5277.813,"text":"這個時間其實是要掌握那中央行政機關組織基準法第三條特別規定這個獨立機關相關的這些定義這裡面都很清楚那現在就是說這個你現在是三級機關嘛三級機關這個當初是怎麼樣的考量要二級機關還是三級機關有怎麼樣的當初有評估嗎"},{"start":5280.458,"end":5300.15,"text":"跟委員報告,就是我們大概也看了其他,尤其歐盟,那因為歐盟他們的體制目前現階段,我們在,我還在國防會的時候曾經有跟他們司法總有問過,他們是沒有所謂的二級三級的概念,他們認為說所以不能參考歐盟啊?"},{"start":5300.51,"end":5327.949,"text":"因為他們跟我們的制度不一樣就如同剛剛前面已經看到我們中央行政組織基本上已經訂了獨立機關就是獨立行使職權也是依照法律所賦予的所以在這個角度裡面他不會說因為二三級而導致說他的行使職權去降低在台灣不一樣這個我們當公務員很久了你在司法機關也當過所以在台灣不一樣"},{"start":5329.64,"end":5356.594,"text":"所以這個部分我個人是認為應該是要二級機關既然這麼重要我只是憲法判決說要成立的對不對那你現在就變成是這個三級機關何況他這個涉及到個人資料何況這個個人資料外洩的太嚴重了所以這個部分是一個需要去這個再好好評估的部分"},{"start":5357.745,"end":5385.252,"text":"然後這個 剛剛提到了這個最主要就是說 這個理事長委員好這個未來 因為它是三級獨立機關然後這個預算顏額編制顏額 法定的編制顏額而且是公務人員禁用的目前有沒有一個規劃"},{"start":5387.745,"end":5409.148,"text":"目前我們按照現在當然如果籌備住戶現在在盤點未來業務發展狀況,如果這個委員會的組織法也成立了,然後個資法也通過,那會盤點整個業務狀況,他會預估所需要的原額狀況,我們再合給所以目前還沒有?李主任,目前有嗎?"},{"start":5411.107,"end":5439.44,"text":"因為作用法也還在審所以 跟那個無關 人總意思是說要等他作用法到底他顧那個量多少他會再跟我們討論說那個到底這個完成錯誤為什麼呢主任這是錯誤的你現在就應該有一個規劃預計多少人法這個你後面的後面這條你都可以寫"},{"start":5442.359,"end":5470.255,"text":"約聘僱的你就可以寫聘用人員聘用條例的不需要利用資格的你就可以寫多少人法定顏額的你不寫何況何況現在已經在籌編預算了籌編明年的預算了對不對多少顏額多少人多少經費多少預算已經在籌編了8月底就要送到立法院了"},{"start":5472.305,"end":5487.786,"text":"所以這個部分還是說不想公開講沒有關係但是按照剛才的答覆這是太慢了如果你說不方便講你就只要不方便講好不好"},{"start":5488.752,"end":5510.805,"text":"好 加油好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員我們現在來做有關會議程序的宣告因為今天聯席人會比較多 那我們時間也縮得比較短那為了讓其他的委員 有人在其他的委員會怕他們來不及"},{"start":5511.605,"end":5535.679,"text":"那我們今天的發言登記我們就延長到更正更正下午3點截止登記發言3點的時候就發言登記就截止了再一次的宣告那我們接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員沒電來呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員不在來請黃國昌委員"},{"start":5541.917,"end":5570.865,"text":"王國昌委員資訊完以後麻煩蔡宜宇委員來代理一下謝謝主席麻煩請個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任請你主任委員午安主任好我長期觀察我國在有關個人資料保護的法制跟落實上我最沒有辦法理解的一個問題是說該好好保護的個資沒有被保護好"},{"start":5572.188,"end":5598.641,"text":"常常拿去胡搞瞎搞有一些是政治人物拿去胡搞瞎搞有一些呢是詐團跑去胡搞瞎搞搞了半天責任都沒有徹底的被追究這個是為什麼我們在處理有關於相關案件的時候大家對於我們目前個人資料保護法的法制法制實質上面落實的程度有很高的疑問"},{"start":5599.67,"end":5628.097,"text":"但是在另外一方面我觀察到一個更可笑的現象是個人資料保護法竟然拿來作為違法濫權的遮羞布我為什麼說個人資料保護法被拿來當成違法濫權的遮羞布來我先帶主任看我們派去英國的公使在自己送交給各個政府單位"},{"start":5629.235,"end":5653.709,"text":"不管是取得教授的證書還是跟國科會申請經費要拿納稅人的錢去做研究上面的學歷啊 是登載不實的但很厲害的事情啊 是什麼很厲害的事情啊 是他登載不實然後呢 他在國科會的個人資料表上面勾選"},{"start":5654.943,"end":5678.622,"text":"我不同意公開我個人的主要學歷我看了我是瞠目結舌我們的國科會還給人家一個選項說你可以不要公開你的最高學歷今天你不要申請公職你不要申請政府的經費我都沒意見結果連國科會的這個資料都可以讓他選擇不公開下一個問題就來了"},{"start":5684.534,"end":5697.846,"text":"最高學歷這個是個資沒有問題但問題是因為個資的範圍很廣嘛有法律的授權有正當的理由基本上都要公開我這個認識沒有錯吧個人資料保護法15條你應該很熟啊要不然你怎麼當主任你有看到嗎所以你有要回答我的問題嗎"},{"start":5711.281,"end":5738.502,"text":"跟委員報告 這裡面有涉及到一個蠻重要的法律叫做政府資訊公開法沒錯 很好政府資訊公開法 來 我們接下來看政府資訊公開法第18條第1項第6款政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一 應限制公開或不提供他說公開或提供有侵害個人的隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權 有嗎"},{"start":5740.909,"end":5764.502,"text":"這個來跟國家申請經費的人他是什麼學歷?這個是公開會涉及到他隱私嗎?是職業上秘密嗎?我多一個好好比啊買拿到哪一個博士學位是羞於其恥還是什麼一公開了哇!洩漏國家機密洩漏我個人職業上的秘密是這樣嗎?來請教主任"},{"start":5768.168,"end":5790.127,"text":"因為各自法跟政治法目前兩個在競合適用的時候因為最高行政法院也歷次有做過一些判例是沒錯他們說優先適用政府資訊公開法沒錯那所以呢依照政府資訊公開法按照你作為接下來這個籌備處主任的高度"},{"start":5792.329,"end":5816.332,"text":"認為申請要他公開他的最高學歷會侵害他的個資嗎?我們的個資法是這樣用的嗎?但是因為現在政府制定官方是給持有資料的這個機關是按照這個規定18條第1項就來做決定說有沒有但有公益有必要你覺得有沒有公益的必要?但是我們並沒有掌有這個資料應該是由國科會要去"},{"start":5816.852,"end":5830.58,"text":"踢皮球就對了 現在踢給國科會沒有沒有 這我們沒有這個職長請委員見諒我最後講一件事情就好了啦人家去申請要公開這個資料 他為什麼要申請 他要揭弊啊"},{"start":5831.533,"end":5858.849,"text":"我明明就知道你造假亂寫啊但是呢我們的科技部很厲害人家去跟他申請的時候他說因為涉及到各自法的保護啊所以欠難提供啊你看 朝偉的臉看得都瞠目結舌啊難以置信啊我要先取得這個資料我還知道他造假嘛結果我們的科技部幫忙遮醜啊遮到"},{"start":5860.203,"end":5885.537,"text":"這樣子的程度啊 您作為各支法的主管機關啊認為科技部這樣濫用各支法 您同意嗎當然也跟委員報告說 這邊是回到政府資訊公約法那魯同先生他這邊科技部的函 後面也有提他做出這個是一個處分喔所以如果再提起說要申請政府資訊被拒絕的話那按照政府資訊公約法我最後時間到 我只簡單跟主任講一件事啦"},{"start":5886.337,"end":5898.882,"text":"法學界,很多人各執法事、政府公開資訊法的專業領域的專家今天聽到你站在這邊講,本來對你很敬重可能會有一些失望好,謝謝"},{"start":5903.484,"end":5916.122,"text":"等一下其實這一部組織法那接下來提到這些相關的在我們作用法裡面其實還可以來大家再來及時廣映休息30秒請蔡議委蔡委員來做主席"},{"start":5935.472,"end":5948.705,"text":"這樣30秒不太好睡啦,不要睡啦,直接開始啦好,來請莊瑞雄召委來諮詢謝謝主席,我請我們李主任來,請李主任"},{"start":5953.898,"end":5973.816,"text":"其實在我們2022年憲法法庭做出憲判制13號這樣的一個解釋就已經很明確的去指出個人資料保護應該是有獨立的監管機關跟監督的一個機制這個其實都不是一個今天在討論的所謂的政策上選擇這反而是一個憲法上的義務"},{"start":5975.638,"end":5998.425,"text":"那現在這部組織法的一個最主要的目標就是真正去落實獨立的監管四個字所以本席在這邊其實也要提醒剛剛幾位委員的指教也不無我們必須要去深入去探討因為最主要這個真的是要說服國人那最近大家去看到"},{"start":5999.349,"end":6028.059,"text":"我們今天在審查這個個人資料保護委員會的一個組織法我必須要先講就是說其實它不只是單純的一部組織法它更是政府在資訊時代對全國人民這個隱私保障的一個基本的一個交代那也是國家展現強化個資保護的一個決心可是你反觀最近大家看到了個資裡面你說一些詐騙集團或者說個人去侵害"},{"start":6028.979,"end":6055.808,"text":"這個都已經是很糟糕了更何況如果是政府帶頭 或者政府機關那自己本身去違法 那更糟糕了我簡單舉幾個歷史來看我舉這個歷史來 意思就是說到底是政府要去違法 蓄意去違法還是它的一個法律的一個專業上的一個認知上這麼的一個薄弱這個很可怕第一個你看花蓮"},{"start":6056.948,"end":6080.24,"text":"你說這一次的連署裡面 這些疑點裡面選委會本來應該就是寄出詢問單去通知 當事人來澄清結果呢 花蓮這個民政處 處長直接把整份的提議書丟給互證機關然後叫互證人員挨家挨戶去按門鈴問人家說這個簽名到底是不是你的這個很明顯就違反了我們整個個資保護法第16條公務機關對於個人資料的一個利用"},{"start":6083.281,"end":6102.044,"text":"這個很明顯就違法了那第二個就是這幾天你看到藍投這個部分我看了其實也是非常痛心的 一樣戶政系統裡面的資料依法你只能供選委會去做查姓名戶籍甚至原名身份等等並沒有任何一個法院可以拿來做比對的這樣的一個筆記啊可是呢"},{"start":6103.045,"end":6116.059,"text":"負證機關他所保存這些民眾的一個簽章理論上而且本質上不能被選委會拿來做比對的一個依據結果這幾天南投縣選委會自己去發明了發明新招把負證資料拿來當筆記鑑定師看到簽名這樣歪一點"},{"start":6121.745,"end":6135.172,"text":"比劃多一下直接把它當成假聯署再做一個處理這根本就不叫依法行政這是自己創造這樣的一個規則來做政治上的一個審查那我很擔心的就是說他搞不好他也沒有這個意識"},{"start":6136.854,"end":6158.176,"text":"搞不好這些地方政府他也認為說沒有啦 我就想要比較謹慎的核對出來但是他們不知道這個已經都侵犯到個人資料的一個保護啊另外第三個你去看喔 更誇張的就是這個基隆霸團收不到聯署書 怎麼辦 不是補件直接 就是霸免那些議員的 直接去找副政機關撈資料來造冊"},{"start":6160.858,"end":6171.903,"text":"還是民政處的處長親自下令幫這個霸團去開後門這很可怕 這真的很可怕那我看看 其實如果很多的霸團裡面這是國民黨的一個霸團裡面可能還是超超黨員名冊而已"},{"start":6178.536,"end":6196.399,"text":"還是超小黨的名冊而已 你可以講說 那就違規定權交代可是政府機關啦 你看基隆這個機關首長直接把負政機關 負政系統變成選舉的武器庫把公權力變成政爭的一個幫兇啊這個已經不叫濫用了 我不知道李主任你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":6197.802,"end":6214.516,"text":"跟委員報告 當然未來個人資料保安會成立的時候公共辦公室也是全面的納管剛剛也有提到說所有的公務部門他的上級機關我們也會跟他保持一個這樣子一個平台我們在政策推進會議裡面"},{"start":6215.917,"end":6241.112,"text":"相關的這些議題當然在未來個人資料保安會成立的時候也會很像的來跟他們討論尤其剛剛所提到一個很重要的是我們的戶籍法因為戶籍法是一個已經非常久的法它的主管機關雖然說對於這個法有它的一些認識適用的一些地方但是講到一談到說個人資料的收集處理利用當然還是要謹遵戶籍法的相關規定那選法法也是一樣啦"},{"start":6242.813,"end":6257.285,"text":"其實我是一直搞不懂國民黨到底怎麼了你像比如說謝國良市長那當年其實還是立委的時候還曾代表國民黨去參加個資法修法的一個協商你說當年其實大家都搖起吶喊在立法院的時候說要鎖住個資法"},{"start":6258.946,"end":6283.998,"text":"結果就變成把這個圍牆給拆掉了他把鑰匙雙手這樣去縫上這個是讓人覺得是非常非常非常不生虛虛的一個地方我們也看到其他的你說像新北市啊就曾經發生消防局的人員非法去查詢各支系統然後給殯葬業者甚至於去變賣這樣的魔力那新竹也是一樣我們看到這個我們今天在審查這一些啊這些亂象"},{"start":6285.66,"end":6313.507,"text":"這些亂象我相信今天這不是一個組織法它是一個也不是多設一個委員會而是要建立一道堅實的各自的一個防火牆真正能夠達到強化各自保護的一個效能我們也期待我們等一下的一個主條裡面大家可以集思廣益讓整部法能夠更完善然後對國人整個各自的保護提供更好的堅實的一個保護好 謝謝"},{"start":6315.687,"end":6343.436,"text":"謝謝委員好來謝謝莊瑞雄委員來這位兄弟好謝謝我們蔡議員接下來我們請來還是最帥氣的羅志祥委員謝謝主席有請李主任有請李主任"},{"start":6349.318,"end":6367.107,"text":"教育部次長葉秉成上個月21日在個人臉書跟校內社群平台發文談及台大的性平案時他上傳的對話截圖包括受害女學生的真實姓名等敏感資訊導致當事人的個資外洩"},{"start":6368.308,"end":6392.567,"text":"那受害學生在社群平台上控訴葉秉成洩露個資並表示我是個人不是你政治操弄的工具那強烈譴責葉秉成的行為受害者學生說你踐踏著我的傷口和隱私鞏固著你的形象跟權力葉秉成你純白的人色潑染著案件被害人鮮紅的血淚"},{"start":6394.528,"end":6423.496,"text":"那女學生事後多次要求葉秉成刪文卻沒有獲得及時回應直到一個月後也就這個月21號的下午葉秉成才完全刪除相關的內容那當時葉市長表示他說他沒有想到善意的舉動無意中帶來困擾但受害女學生表示他至今仍然不清楚葉秉成究竟是透過什麼方式憑藉何種權力取得他的個資那保護"},{"start":6424.356,"end":6439.513,"text":"性侵受害者的個人諮詢是社會基本的倫理跟道德界限不管是在哪個領域誰跨過這個線就不該再談教育談善良談責任那他也認為葉次長的行為造成他難以挽回的傷害"},{"start":6440.234,"end":6467.105,"text":"某部分剝奪他未來三十年的人生那我想要幫這位女學生問就是說到底這個個人資料保護法規定洩露他人個資意圖損害他人利益自身損害於他人者最高可處五年以下有期徒刑並科一百萬以下罰金那公務員假借職務上的權利機會或方法洩露個資可加重其刑制"},{"start":6467.765,"end":6482.281,"text":"二分之一那我想請問主任你怎麼樣來去幫忙回答一下這位女學生的一個提問到底為什麼她是怎麼樣取得她的個資然後讓她去面對這樣的傷害"},{"start":6484.303,"end":6499.773,"text":"這個做法葉次長做法有沒有違反各執法的規定那對於受害女學生的權益保障我不知道這個執事準備要去籌備我們個人資料保護委員會的李主任你有什麼建議給受害女學生"},{"start":6501.429,"end":6519.411,"text":"當然按照現行的規定,因為還沒有個人資料保安會成立公務機關部分並沒有被他納管現行的話當然是由他的上級機關來處理,還有機關本身來處理,這是外向是如此"},{"start":6519.972,"end":6536.224,"text":"但是剛剛有提到說刑事犯罪若是說有涉及到刑事犯罪41條那部分的話就回到刑事犯罪如果被害當然還是依照刑事訴訟法的規定去主張他的權利但是如果未來我們假如說未來這件事情"},{"start":6536.624,"end":6556.433,"text":"因為公務機關部分也有納管我們覺得這個議題應該會先擺在說安全維護義務假如這裡面是有涉及到說資料的收集使用雖然是有權責的人去做保管但是資料要怎麼樣去做使用它的安全維護控管我們剛剛在前面有跟委員報告說未來各自法的18條"},{"start":6557.453,"end":6571.443,"text":"有關於說個人資料的一個管理那邊我們會再訂授權辦法那邊當然會有一些更細的規定去推廣跟落實就是資料不要超過目的在外的使用以上謝謝主任"},{"start":6573.564,"end":6595.632,"text":"後續發展不只這位受害女學生她的個資外泄那媒體也報導18位網友因為不滿葉次長的作為寫信到教育部長信箱陳情那聲援受害的女學生但事後卻發現她們的個資無一例外全部外流那這類公務機關洩漏個資那個資會成立之後要怎麼去監管"},{"start":6597.486,"end":6618.877,"text":"跟委員報告講說是因為有去申訴監舉按照當然現有行政程序法本來就有規定陳情的這部分要保密所以中央機關當然是跟照假設說有事涉及到陳情的這個相關資訊洩密那部分當然還是應該要回到機關要先進行調查但是"},{"start":6619.617,"end":6641.097,"text":"若以 剛剛還講到 未來當然是公務機關院會納管這部分還是會回到 剛才說是屬於安全維護義務的一環那不管怎麼樣 陳情人的這些資料我們當然 剛剛已經有講到說有保密義務在現有的行政程序法經由那在個資法裡面是有關是安全維護義務那這兩個部分的話 法律規定"},{"start":6641.457,"end":6658.436,"text":"我們應該會在同時來加強落實以上好 謝謝主任希望我們各支會如果加以成立的話相關類似的狀況都能夠加以掌握以上 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員接下來有請我們蔡議員與蔡委員質詢"},{"start":6669.284,"end":6671.869,"text":"謝謝主席 有請李主任請李主任召委長 召委委員"},{"start":6678.67,"end":6706.349,"text":"主任好主任我們今天是討論組織法那在經濟委員會同樣會討論作用法那我想要請教主任那最近台灣整個不管是在公務或是非公務的各自外洩那公務的部分事實上剛剛莊惠雄召委也有去講到最近尤其像在基隆的案件是非常的極端直接由公務員他直接外洩去協助罷免"},{"start":6706.96,"end":6728.969,"text":"那事實上剛剛包括羅志強也有講到的包括教育部次長他可能也都涉及到的把這個個資把它展露給大家所以這個都是需要被檢討的但是非公務機關尤其是我們每天都會接到的很多類似銀行問你要不要貸款或者是其他的一些詐騙集團的會打來給你這是非公務機關的外洩"},{"start":6733.325,"end":6738.731,"text":"那我們成立了這樣一個個資會要怎麼防堵這樣的一個個資外線的狀況你們具體的作為咧"},{"start":6742.233,"end":6769.389,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得這件事情應該是說整個個人資料保護管理那個意識在目前現在其實還是比較是屬於表面要怎麼做大家還不知道如何去進行所以未來個人資料保護會成立除了剛剛我提到說有一個六年這個會回收分管有明確目的還會暫時跟中央目的世界主管機關一起來合作"},{"start":6770.089,"end":6797.349,"text":"但是在就現有已經有未來有個人資料保護會監管的部分我們在18條跟20條之一剛剛委員已經特別去強調說對於非公務機關這部分要如何來去強化跟落實那這裡面還有包含說軟性的當然是教育這個宣導然後法規的這個證訊要跟這些目的事業的中央目的事業總管機關一起來合作主任我想"},{"start":6798.83,"end":6815.739,"text":"對於這種個資外洩事前預防很重要但是事後的懲罰才是真的可以遏止未來再有個資外洩所以說比方說像基隆的事件我就認為說基本上這一些被個資的人應該要提出國賠"},{"start":6817.728,"end":6844.548,"text":"應該要提出國賠 國賠法不管是國家賠償法第二條或者是第四條都認為說國家應該先行賠償然後對於公務員有故意或重大過失的他必須要在另外求償所以我覺得這部分除了應該大家提出國賠之外我們也要去督促啊到底誰洩漏個資不可以讓他雲淡風輕國家要有代位的一個求償"},{"start":6845.589,"end":6849.353,"text":"這個應該是要貫徹的好不好要不然你沒辦法懲罰嘛你沒有實質的懲罰他永遠公務員洩漏個資的時候雲淡風輕 好吧 道個歉"},{"start":6859.046,"end":6877.733,"text":"結束了,是這樣嗎?不可能是這樣好不好?各位我們在第二階段在這個做用法部分會再展開一個全面的這個部分意見我們會把它拿出來那當然在作用法的部分還在檢討那我想在最後一分鐘我再跟主任再來討論就是說事實上在這一次111年的憲判制13號他強調的一個個資他認為說你客觀上有還原而間接識別當事人的可能"},{"start":6885.296,"end":6899.783,"text":"即使資料經過處理只要在客觀上存在任何特定方法可以還原並間接識別特定人的可能性該資料仍屬於個人資料所以我們知道說在憲判制這個13號的一個出爐之後"},{"start":6901.804,"end":6921.16,"text":"你去識別化的資料你只要能夠再用特定方法可以再去還原然後把這個去識別的人再把他特定化然後就可以知道這個人仍然是屬於個資好 那基於這樣的一個憲判之初如後我們知道說過去有包括113年這一個"},{"start":6924.442,"end":6928.545,"text":"法務部113年的103035 13040號認為去識別化的極非屬個人資料或是105年法律制105035 10730號認為可能間接識別生存存在的個人資料"},{"start":6943.654,"end":6971.643,"text":"就是這個個人資料為特定目的外的利用所以又不是屬於個人資料所以有好幾次的一個含釋都排除掉去識別化的資料但是大法官甚至卻進一步的他又更開闊的去講說你只要經過特定方法把去識別化的再把它海撈或者是其他的資料Google的資料再把它補充起來你就可以知道這個人是誰仍然是屬於個人"},{"start":6974.984,"end":6996.678,"text":"這個屬於個人資料 那範圍就不是像單純文字講那麼簡單的喔不是說身份證我都蓋起來 我的出生年月日都蓋起來這樣就是屬於沒有影響各自的 範圍變得很大喔所以主任面對這樣的一個轉變而且事實上現在整個網路資訊的時代"},{"start":6999.78,"end":7015.202,"text":"勢必也會變這樣所以這部分你們必須要做更多努力包括說過去的這相關的一個含釋是不是有需要檢討改進的必要請你們都要來做會 這個在第二階段的修法會有這個議題而且蠻重要的謝謝委員長好 那就期待好 謝謝"},{"start":7016.721,"end":7031.011,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接下來請邱志偉邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在邱志偉委員不在王逸川委員請質詢我們王逸川委員質詢後 我們先休息五分鐘好 主席請李主任請李主任"},{"start":7043.858,"end":7056.515,"text":"主任好 請問一下這幾個條文第一個是關於兼任委員在這個草案裡頭提到準用公職人員利益迴避法"},{"start":7058.015,"end":7083.523,"text":"那我請教一下你們的第10條啊 聘這個聘用人員喔你們有一個上限50人的這個聘用人員嗎那這個聘用人員因為為了就是說有些課題是蠻專業的所以你們要聘用各式各樣的非公務員可以這樣講那這些人都不准用公職人員利益迴避嗎"},{"start":7087.069,"end":7111.977,"text":"可以先回答一下應該說 聘僱人員的話因為他本來就有公務員服務法那邊的規定的適用公務員服務法那邊也有一些有關利益迴避的規範因為你們特別把兼任委員說他准用公職人員利益迴避特別提這件事"},{"start":7113.154,"end":7129.707,"text":"那顯然是你們認知是不是監政委員其他的因為利益衝突迴避法它本來在它所謂的公職人員它就有一定的範圍像它可能就是說可能是一些比較是主管級的我知道那這個你們聘用的那五十位以下的"},{"start":7130.567,"end":7153.424,"text":"他其實就是還是會有公務員服務法相關規定的適用所以他還是 那但是他不是適用公職人員利益迴避法對 因為公職人員他本來他公職人員就有一定的限縮在一定範圍比如說他是辦什麼採購或會計會計人員的相關主管或是說他是政務人員他才會有那個公職人員利益衝突迴避法的適用那現在設計這些聘用人員的最高的職稱會是什麼"},{"start":7159.989,"end":7170.413,"text":"你們有主委有委員有主任秘書現在上面看到了那再往下會不會是有聘用到聘用人員"},{"start":7171.215,"end":7191.892,"text":"因為聘用人員他會將來我們還是要你去這個聘用計畫書然後報請這個人總這邊去做一個核定所以到時候會依聘用計畫書裡面去去用這個相關的這個聘用人員的名稱OK好所以最後人總會核定好請問一下這個主任你有沒有用過淘寶啊個人是沒有好"},{"start":7196.633,"end":7219.073,"text":"那淘寶要加入會員的時候,他一個選項是用Nine的帳號然後你要加進去的時候,Nine的帳號他要求你的主要個人的資訊你的E-mail,在裡頭的識別碼都必須提供他沒有別的選擇,你要加入你就告訴他說我通通給你"},{"start":7220.989,"end":7247.359,"text":"這個會不會是接下來我們這個委員會會關心的事情這部分因為是涉及到所謂的數位身份識別的一種手法但是假如說他的目前另外一個平台直接就把資料pass過來是基於說當事人同意有個同意的外觀那當然是先用當事人同意那當然是要你同意啦就算你加入的時候你不同意你就不能加入嘛我是就是說"},{"start":7248.919,"end":7266.728,"text":"有人為了加入貪小便宜買淘寶貪小便宜他就他就給了可是他不知道他給了之後是有風險的因為這也是你們第二條的跨境傳輸嘛這也算是跨對淘寶當然是跨境傳輸嘛那這個部分我是"},{"start":7267.848,"end":7291.717,"text":"這個建議你們接下來這個關於這一個跨境的這種課題可能要特別的關注或者我們的消費者可能會到時候遇到這種事情也不知道怎麼辦因為他不按他就不能加入會員第二個在第二條裡頭你們有提到一個叫教育訓練跟宣導第二條你們有一個業務叫教育訓練跟宣導你們的這個教育訓練跟宣導的對象會是誰"},{"start":7296.926,"end":7326.549,"text":"目前當然會有幾個層面一個是說全國性的那就是一般的Avenis那種通用認知的這一種不管是透過網路啊還是說請的到各個只要是公民這個鄉鎮公共去做這樣的一個宣導所以你們也會對一般民眾宣導對一般民眾宣導 另外一個就是那你們的工作量不會很大嗎就是未來這部分一定要跟公司協就是所謂的公協會去做合作對 這個可能到時候跟數位部啊"},{"start":7327.269,"end":7352.065,"text":"教育部 很多單位都要一起合作因為我看到你們寫的好像都要你們做你們不可能 裡面就不可能有幾個人還要做這個事情我們會用政策推進的那個會議裡面去跟其他的機關好 謝謝 加油謝謝有夠厲害的 以前我們待會要主席我理夢了了代表每一個辦公室都有做準備我們現在休息五分鐘等一下我們繼續"},{"start":7817.444,"end":7819.187,"text":"我們繼續開會 接下來我們有請陳培宇委員去答好 謝謝主席那這邊有請各自會 謝謝請李主任好"},{"start":7834.081,"end":7857.888,"text":"好主任你好每次只要談到各自台灣人都非常敏感我看到有趣的新聞跟主任分享但我覺得台灣很難做到看到那個因應歐洲的這個緊張的情勢德國最近要聯絡他們的退伍軍人結果各自保護得太好竟然找不到人我覺得這事情非常神奇但我覺得台灣一步步走到那邊我們需要很長的時間等一下有個故事也可以跟委員分享但是他們叫我要準時下來這樣"},{"start":7860.049,"end":7882.297,"text":"也就是說個資這件事情確實有很大的進步空間那現在散落在各個單位的個資管理我認為未來我們台灣需要一個完整的個資保護政策我也期待後續的修法我們可以往這裡前進目前我們看到就公務機關來看有非常多公務機關都有相關的新聞傳出不管是警政、社政、司法、衛政、教育"},{"start":7882.677,"end":7901.377,"text":"只要公務員員想要他好像就可以打開相關的系統找到我們很多人的個資所以我想在未來個資會成立之後我們第一個要做的事情是要去思考如何防止公務機關有不當的個資查閱跟利用我相信在現行你們的對於未來政策想像應該已經開始討論這個部分了對不對是"},{"start":7904.48,"end":7919.74,"text":"那我們來看下一個這也是最近一直發生的新聞啦其實台灣的人真的會就是人民會很不舒服包含南投、花蓮、基隆都有這些民政機關他們不當的利用公民的個資做反霸這個事情"},{"start":7920.34,"end":7944.377,"text":"當然這個新聞嗆降的個案確實會讓人民意識到個資這件事情看起來不會只有過往大家熟悉的私部門企業其實在很多公務機關裡面確實有這個狀態但時間有限我想後續在修法的時候我們持續往這裡前進所以要拜託個資會成立後針對避免公務員不當利用個資的部分做防治跟擬定相關政策還要拜託個資會籌備處成立"},{"start":7946.418,"end":7957.153,"text":"整理出目前你們已經有掌握到公務員違反個資法的常見樣態對於後續的行政機關做相關教育跟宣導這些事情有沒有機會在半年內完成"},{"start":7958.823,"end":7984.449,"text":"因為這部分其實走在我們前面做的更多是法務部的廉政署因為他們對於所有的公部門有關於說資料不能去做誤用那你能不能說因為他們做的確比較多所以你們可以跟他們請教把他們有收集到這些相關的樣態做你們後續修法如何防止公務機關這個部分我們再跟他們請教來下一張"},{"start":7987.27,"end":8013.325,"text":"那除了這個好 下一個來民間 前一張民間企業的部分其實人民也很多疑慮啦從我們一般人都很熟悉的最近有醫院的個資外洩的問題電信啦 百貨啦 超商啦 電商其實一陣子一陣子都會有相關新聞那目前甚至其實前一陣子也有韓國電信外資個資外洩的問題我相信像這樣的私部門企業我們到底後續可以怎麼做應該也是你們後續要討論的方向"},{"start":8015.046,"end":8037.822,"text":"那接下來還有一個我覺得也比較詭異的但是確實在台灣發生過在2018年當時體育單項協會有人頭會員的問題然後後來是因為檢調單位介入那個相關的事情才有開始稍微調整那這個狀態我們也很擔心後續也就是說在各式各樣的機構只要他們有各式各樣的資料就有可能做不當的利用所以時間有限我們直接切到最後一張"},{"start":8038.402,"end":8066.286,"text":"我要拜託各自會在針對後續各自法修法的部分只要有涉及大量的個人資料而且有公共安全的一律的私部門都要加強納管的強度當然需要跟相關團體討論收集民間第一線的聲音不要只有閉門造局但我認為私部門這件事情非常重要還有就是我剛剛說的針對體育單項協會因為未來運動部成立之後一定會有相關的樣態可能是我們必須要去注意到的我今天也一併提醒好不好"},{"start":8067.166,"end":8082.844,"text":"好那時間還有8分8秒鐘你要不要講那個有趣的故事德國那個太短了就是其實一樣德國我記得在2015年的時候他們有一個德國之夜的航空公司因為副駕駛開飛機去撞山大家可能還有這個印象死了150人"},{"start":8084.145,"end":8112.668,"text":"當時我就面臨一個問題德國的個資保護因為管制的真的很嚴格那明明是精神醫師是知道說這個副駕駛他有些精神狀況但是因為沒有具體作用法去說他這個東西要去跟就是航空所謂的民航局單位去做通報所以就變成這個資訊因為在德國他們是特種個人資料所以就沒有去做提供因為個資保護管制很嚴"},{"start":8113.359,"end":8130.92,"text":"所以等到後來調查結果就發現這個機師原來是在撞山前一年就已經有很多精神狀況但是他們的所謂人民航的部門完全沒有辦法掌握到連航空公司沒辦法掌握到所以德國個資做得好是全世界都知道的好 謝謝主任 謝謝主席"},{"start":8132.813,"end":8150.199,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員那我們所有登記發言的委員經與發言完畢 懸答結束委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本聯席會"},{"start":8151.719,"end":8161.263,"text":"那委員張家俊 謝依鳳 李坤城 邱毅英 邱志偉所提書面質詢經列入記錄 刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那現在我們來進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀提案的條文預估宣讀的時間差不多八分鐘"},{"start":8174.548,"end":8201.968,"text":"如果有修正動議或者附帶決議提出請盡速書面雙腳主席台畢立於印發現場來進行討論那如果有收到如果已經收到的修正動議我們一併來做宣讀宣讀後我們就可以來進行討論了那為立於整個討論審查法案時候請主要列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座我們現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":8203.932,"end":8222.864,"text":"討論事項括弧一行政院提案個人資料保護委員會組織法草案第一條行政院為落實資訊隱私權保障健全個人資料保護法制並促進個人資料之合理利用特設個人資料保護委員會為相當中央三級獨立機關第二條本會長禮下列事項一"},{"start":8223.784,"end":8248.006,"text":"個人資料保護發展願景政策計畫之規劃嚴定及協調推動個人資料保護法規之擬定修正廢止諮詢解釋及協調推動個人資料保護行政監督管理之規劃推動執行及協調聯繫違反個人資料保護法案件之處理及處分個人資料保護相關科技與應用模式之設計研析評估發展及協調推動"},{"start":8249.727,"end":8274.365,"text":"6.跨境傳輸個人資料保護之評估、研析、協調、限制及執行7.國際個人資料保護事務合作、參與、交流之規劃、推動及執行8.個人資料保護相關教育訓練、宣導與人才培育之規劃、推動及執行9.國內以外個人資料保護法制、政策與執行之研究、追蹤、調查及統計10.其他有關個人資料保護事項"},{"start":8275.546,"end":8295.741,"text":"第三條本會至委員五人至七人其中一人為主任委員職務比照檢任第十四職等對外代表本會一人為副主任委員職務比照檢任第十三職等其餘專任委員二人職務比照檢任第十二職等兼任委員一人至三人主任委員副主任委員及專任委員由行政院院長任命"},{"start":8296.321,"end":8311.594,"text":"其餘委員由行政院院長就有關機關人員或學者專家分別聘派兼之任期四年任滿的連任但本法實行後第一次任命之委員除主任委員、副主任委員外其中三人之任期為二年"},{"start":8312.355,"end":8326.219,"text":"本會委員任期屆滿前三個月或出缺三個月內行政院院長應依前項程序任命或聘派新任或繼任委員委員出缺時其繼任委員之任期至原任期屆滿之日為止"},{"start":8327.403,"end":8341.982,"text":"本會委員應具有個人資料保護、法律、資訊、科技、資通安全、人權、公共行政、經濟、商業、管理或消費者保護等相關學士及經驗本會委員中具有同一黨籍者,不得超過委員總額二分之一"},{"start":8342.523,"end":8361.699,"text":"第四條主任委員出缺或因故無法行使職權時由副主任委員代理主任委員副主任委員均出缺或因故無法行使職權時由行政院院長指定委員一人代理主任委員第五條本會委員有下列情形之一者得由行政院院長予以免職或免監一"},{"start":8362.099,"end":8389.44,"text":"因離並至無法執行職務 違法廢除職務或其他事職行為 因案受羈押或經起訴本會依法獨立行使職權本會委員應超出黨派以外於任職期間不得參加政黨活動並依法獨立行使職權本會委員於任職期間應謹守利益迴避原則兼任委員本人並准用公職人員利益衝突迴避法下列事項 應經本會委員"},{"start":8392.842,"end":8420.189,"text":"會議決議一個人資料保護政策之審議二個人資料保護重要計劃之審議三個人資料保護法規之擬定修正及廢止之審議四委員提案之審議五其他應有委員會委員會議決議之重大事項第八條本會委員會議每月舉行一次由主任委員召集之必要時的召開臨時會議請向會議由主任委員擔任主席主任委員因故不能出席時由副主任委員代理"},{"start":8420.689,"end":8427.18,"text":"主任委員、副主任委員均不能出席時由其他委員互推一人為主席本會委員會議之決議應有全體委員過半數之出席"},{"start":8430.768,"end":8456.473,"text":"出席委員過半數字同意行之委員會議開會時得邀請學者專家與與會並得請相關機關構事業或團體派員列席說明陳述事實或提供意見本會委員會議對外不公開但委員會議記錄依政府資訊公開法第七條規定主動公開第九條本會自主任秘書職務列檢認第十一指等第十條本會為因應數位科技"},{"start":8457.153,"end":8472.894,"text":"快速发展提升对个人资料之保护德意聘用人员聘用条例之规定聘用个人资料保护数位科技与应用自通安全集合人权经济管理产业政策国际合作等相关领域专业人员其聘用人额不得超过50人"},{"start":8473.995,"end":8497.856,"text":"第十一條本會各職稱之官等職等及院而另以編輯表定之第十二條本法施行日期由行政院以命令定之挖虎二委員王美惠等十八人提案第一條同行政院提案第二條除將第五款修正為五個人資料保護相關科技與應用模式之設計延期評估發展交流推廣及協調推動其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":8498.436,"end":8527.399,"text":"第三條第一項同行政院提案第二項第三項分別為主任委員副主任委員及專任委員由行政院院長任命其餘委員由行政院院長就有關機關人員或學者專家分別聘派兼職任期四年任滿的連任一次本會委員任期屆滿前三個月或處於三個月內行政院院長應依前項程序任命或聘派新任或繼任委員委員處缺時其繼任委員之任期至原任期屆滿之日為止"},{"start":8528.3,"end":8557.92,"text":"但本法实行后第一次任命之委员除主任委员副主任委员外其中三人之任期为二年不受前项任期的限制第四项及第五项同行政院提案第四条至第十二条均同行政院提案瓜胡三委员罗廷伟等十八人提案第一条为落实资讯隐私权保障健全个人资料保护法制确保个人资料使用之安全特设个人资料保护委员会为相当中央三级独立机关第二条至第五条均同行政院提案"},{"start":8559.161,"end":8579.017,"text":"第六條本會依法獨立行使職權本會委員應超出黨派以外於任職期間不得參任政黨活動或擔任政府機關或公營事業之職務並依法獨立行使職權本會委員於任職期間應謹守利益迴避原則不得擔任事業或團體之專任職務兼任委員本人並准用公職人員利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":8579.597,"end":8606.466,"text":"第七條至第十條均同行政院提案第十一條本會為因業務需要得報請行政院核准派員駐境外辦事並依駐外機構組織通則規定辦理第十二條同行政院提案第十一條第十三條本法施行日期由行政院定之關乎次委員李坤成等十六人提案第一條處將手續修正為為保障資訊隱私權及完善個人資料保護法制其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":8607.006,"end":8627.908,"text":"第二條至第五條均同行政院提案第六條除將第二項修正為本會委員應超出黨派並以國家利益為優先之外於任職期間不得參加政黨活動並依法獨立行使之權其餘同行政院提案第七條同行政院提案第八條第一項除將首具修正為本會委員"},{"start":8629.169,"end":8650.484,"text":"會議每兩週舉行一次及第五項默劇修正為應主動對外公開其餘同行政院提案即第九條至第十二條均同行政院提案括弧五委員吳秉瑞等十八人提案除將第六條第二項修正為本會委員於任職期間應謹守公務人員行政中立法規範其餘條文均同行政院提案"},{"start":8651.164,"end":8677.029,"text":"瓜胡六委員陳亭飛等16人提案及瓜胡七委員蔡易宇等17人提案全部條文均同行政院提案瓜胡八委員何欣淳等22人提案處將第八條第三項及第四項分別修正為本會委員會議之決議應由委員總額過半數字出席出席委員過半數字同意行之各委員各委員對會議之決議得提出協同意見書或不同意見書並同會議決議一併公佈"},{"start":8680.03,"end":8708.879,"text":"前項委員總額為實際在任委員之總額 但實際在任委員不足5人時委員總額以5人計 其餘條文均同行政院提案 瓜湖9 委員吳思耀等17人提案除將第一條之手續刪除行政院3個字外 其餘條文均同行政院提案 宣讀完畢好 我們條文已經宣讀完畢 我們現在來進行討論請問在場委員白岸是否要先進行大理討論 或者直接進入主條的一個審查"},{"start":8710.592,"end":8731.762,"text":"好了那我們就直接進入主條啦那今天呢我們司法跟經濟我們這樣的一個聯席其實剛剛各位委員的選擇裡面我們可以發現大家對於整個內部的一個改革其實大家都非常重視但是呢這個條文這一部法令之所以重要其實更關係到整個國際參與跟"},{"start":8733.283,"end":8746.879,"text":"企業上的一個負擔尤其是根據GDPR它的一個45條的規定各自只有在對方國家具有保護程度才可以去傳輸沒有需要特別的一個授權也就是說台灣如果具備獨立的監管機制將有機會去取得與"},{"start":8751.704,"end":8763.789,"text":"以確保具備足夠程度的個人資料保護讓企業省下繁重自主管理跟這個合約上的一個負擔那其實對加入國際隱私論壇組織裡面也是很大的一個注意這變成說組織法如果健全我請問一下 如果健全的話未來你不僅能夠去參與還能讓台灣在國際隱私治理中有這個話語權"},{"start":8780.276,"end":8804.766,"text":"接下來我們繼續去做一個主條因為本案是制定案我們處理名稱跟十三個條次的一個序列首先我們來先處理名稱每一個提案裡面各提案的名稱都相同"},{"start":8805.586,"end":8826.429,"text":"那對於名稱的部分 在場委員有沒有其他不同意見沒有意見如果沒有的話 我們就按照行政院的提案通過好那另外呢 主席 那個你剛剛問我一項問題 不過沒關係啦因為我剛剛本來是要講大體討論的部分 你已經進入到主條沒關係 我等一下會讓大家 大家暢所欲言 好不好"},{"start":8826.809,"end":8854.655,"text":"好好好 那沒關係因為聚焦的部分等一下就是審到條文的部分我再把剛剛我想要講的東西提一下就好我就不耽誤主席的進度好 沒問題我們今天其實這十二個條文裡面就是第三條跟第十條有一點分歧那其他的部分我看這個大家都幾乎都有共識每一個版本我們來做一個對照的話我們像第一條第一條請大家看到第十九頁那行"},{"start":8856.315,"end":8875.962,"text":"現場的委員有沒有其他不同的意見沒有來鄭天才委員這個第一條第一條最主要就是這個獨立機關是相當中央的三級獨立機關"},{"start":8879.898,"end":8886.351,"text":"因為原來現行的個人資料保護法是法務部主管"},{"start":8887.679,"end":8913.476,"text":"法務部主管最起碼法務部他還可以以這個法務部二級機關本來是一開始是法務部一開始是在法務部後來才移到那邊去不管是法務部或是國發會都是二級機關那現在既然這麼重要而且要獨立機關現在是把它弄成這個"},{"start":8916.417,"end":8942.743,"text":"三級機關的獨立機關所以我是認為既然各自這個外洩的這麼嚴重所以這個部分我認為應該是要還是要二級機關不然的話他怎麼去協調相關的各部會二級機關呢何況掌握主管掌管這些"},{"start":8944.571,"end":8945.314,"text":"這麼多的個資的"},{"start":8947.492,"end":8975.146,"text":"除了內政部有衛福部還有其他很多的部會都有所以我認為這個應該要中央的二級獨立機關好 謝謝鄭噴財委員我知道其他委員有舉手要發言我們第一條其實在講設定的目的跟組織的性質我們這麼多版本裡面提出來都是三級機關如果鄭委員你就對於你有其他的版本"},{"start":8978.258,"end":8983.581,"text":"第一條我們在場委員還有沒有其他不同的意見那如果沒有我們就按照行政院的提案通過了然後接下來我們看"},{"start":9004.483,"end":9019.032,"text":"是嘛 我就告訴大家 我們今天啦 政委我就把所有的版本 包括行政院還有各個委員 主條審查的 我就一堆版本給大家看還有人事行政總署說明一下來 機關請說明一下"},{"start":9023.379,"end":9035.836,"text":"好 好好 給你們表達請機關做說明一下好不好好 謝謝委員一來剛剛也有說明在中央行政組織計準法對於獨立機關就是依法律這個獨立行使職權"},{"start":9038.579,"end":9062.915,"text":"固然當然是我們剛才講說這邊設三級但是因為它是拉到行政院的那個層次下去設跟以往其實以往也有曾經有在討論說是不是要在法國部或甚至那時候各自法院在國發會的時候由他們往下設三級但是都說這樣子好像二級之下又三級好像不高所以後來有在做討論因為畢竟是拉到行政院的這個層級"},{"start":9064.136,"end":9091.369,"text":"但是他是獨立行使職權院長也不可以去干涉他的那個職權的判斷那一來剛剛也提到說這個憲判也希望三年內所以我們當然是也期盼說大院委員能夠支持就是我們讓他先趕快先快速的能夠把他先成立起來那用這樣的一個職權上面的一個設計我們覺得目前現在來看的話應該可以先做組織上面這樣的一個開展以上"},{"start":9091.87,"end":9093.843,"text":"好 接下來請吳斯耀文發言"},{"start":9095.68,"end":9121.355,"text":"剛剛鄭天才委員的垂詢其實我在我今天的質詢當中我其實也有提到就是說當然如果二級機關在我們的原額組織調配的過來我也支持可以到二級機關但現在我們面臨到的困境是憲判我們必須有期限要成立第二個與其說它的層級更重要的是我們需要一個中立獨立而且專業的機關"},{"start":9122.964,"end":9142.779,"text":"對不對所以說我是可以接受先求有再求好那更重要我要跟天才文分享就是說重要是我們需要一個獨立的機關我反而認為什麼外掛在某一個部會之下那樣子也不符合歐盟的GDPR的規範所以另外是一個專責的Committee"},{"start":9143.419,"end":9155.684,"text":"他有中立性有專業性有獨立性這反而是更重要的二級或三級我固然有我自己的想法但是在現判的這個期限內我是懇請大家可以先支持現在的版本"},{"start":9159.807,"end":9174.563,"text":"好 謝謝 其實我在去年2024年剛上任的時候我就已經提出我的版本個人資料保護委員會的組織法那我的當時的看法也是採用二級機關那但是也確實像如同施耀委員剛剛講的"},{"start":9175.484,"end":9200.902,"text":"二級機關現在確實你要調動到原額上有一些困難所以三級是比較快能夠完成同時也符合憲法法庭的意旨同時也是能夠盡快運作起來的所以這一次今天沒有把我的版本納進來那我也接受啦但我也想要強調是這件事情恐怕是盡快的去動起來讓這個組織能夠動起來讓個人資料保護能夠做得更好我認為是更重要所以我也懇請各位就支持行政院的版本"},{"start":9202.401,"end":9227.282,"text":"好 謝謝 其實剛正委員的 等一下 剛他的這些意見其實不是只有你的意見 你看我看那個沈發威委員 蕭若文委員甚至我個人的看法 其實我們都趨近那我們都希望這樣的一個機關裡面 它結構上是獨立然後它組成上更多元 然後整個程序上是透明"},{"start":9228.242,"end":9244.053,"text":"在我的立場,我只能把每一個版本拿出來審我不會無中生有給一個版本出來來,那是不是如果發言都已經,大家沒意見了齁這第一條,來我又聽你講,這條我是同歸的,我多給你多給你發現一下,來通啦,你講那個通啦既然有委員說曾經提案"},{"start":9256.894,"end":9283.114,"text":"然後也認為支持這個改二級機關直接改就很容易啊 跟那個怎麼會做不到不是啦 現在我跟大家說明現在改就做到了現在我不是這樣子意見寶貴但是呢就是說我必須要按照程序來提出的版本就是這一些我只是通過以後你願意發言我繼續讓你發言好不好 因為大家都"},{"start":9285.876,"end":9303.864,"text":"都很對這一部法令大家都非常重視接下來我們就進入第二條第二條是管理事項的部分請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見"},{"start":9305.578,"end":9321.984,"text":"如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過接下來第三條就是首長副首長的職稱跟這些官職等委員的人數任期任命應具備的專業資格部分請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見請吳斯亞委員"},{"start":9325.701,"end":9350.332,"text":"等一下審判會委員應該也因為我的意見跟他質詢的意見是一樣的這一條是我們的Committee的組成那組成你們定的是你們比照核安會是5到7人那你為什麼不去學習非安會那是運安會是9到11嘛那你看看你第三條的第四項你所寫的領域別我們要有一個"},{"start":9351.212,"end":9364.257,"text":"你自己寫的領域別需要的專家就剛好11項而且我一定要強調個資這件事情個資的保護它一定會因應時代的改變有更多面向"},{"start":9365.606,"end":9383.178,"text":"就像我們現在是數位科技數位的經濟一定會更多所以你第3項第4項裡頭你自己另立的這些領域別就已經是10項11項了雖然我知道你在第8項第8條裡面有寫到說未來在開會審議"},{"start":9385.439,"end":9402.356,"text":"個案或者是這個各自政策的時候都可以再找專家學者來練習但如果我們做得到的話9到11位我相信應該是很most welcome才對吧在我們常態的這個委員的組成就可以人數更多領域更廣更能夠讓多元的意見跟專業可以含納"},{"start":9406.34,"end":9429.419,"text":"所以我個人是建議是不是9到11位是一個合宜的或者是你要5到11位也是可以啦或是7到11位,我重點是希望他可以到那個頂啊天花板高啦這個是我的看法,我看發會委員應該是差不多意見或者是再請主任回答,因為我剛剛質詢時間完了,您來不及回答這一題"},{"start":9431.546,"end":9453.806,"text":"請李主任做一個說明因為今天很多委員其實都提到這個問題你這個整個委員會專業裡面確實是包山包海你5到7個人是不是真的有辦法去涵蓋所有的專業來 請說明主席 我講一下程序是不是吳宗憲委員也有意見"},{"start":9454.867,"end":9473.018,"text":"大家先把對第三條的意見講完之後再請一起回答吳中介委員我們先把所有的委員的意見我們來做一個爭點的整理我想說齁我跟這部分跟那個吳世耀委員提的也差不多啦因為我還是覺得說因為這個"},{"start":9475.802,"end":9499.239,"text":"委員是5到7人啦 這個人數會不會太少你像運安是9到11人 然後不當黨產委員會是11到13那這個卻5到7 而且他我們剛剛講那幾個委員會是處理特定事項耶那今天這個是處理通案性的全國的事項那他人數卻那麼少 這是我第一個要提到的"},{"start":9499.819,"end":9519.401,"text":"那第二個我要提到的是其實我們剛剛在講到第一條因為我覺得主席這樣強行讓他通過也很奇怪因為我覺得沒有啦 我都有強行我都問大家的意見 我有強行我都跟你們講得爽耶沒關係 大家都有意見剛剛很多也都說支持其實在二級會比較好嘛那是不是"},{"start":9522.059,"end":9548.34,"text":"不是啦 其實我說真的啦我們也知道大家心裡在想什麼啦二級跟三級你就差在立法院的監督嘛我想說大家心裡都知道差在哪裡啦沒有沒有 我覺得大家都知道我們不要把話說得很難聽啦但是好沒關係喔 但是我的意思就是說二級跟三級他還是差在立法院得否監督嘛那我們的立場 我知道大家立場也是都希望說好好監督行政機關嘛"},{"start":9550.151,"end":9575.884,"text":"我想我們不是護航我是監督啦所以我還是覺得說但第一條我還是希望說應該是放在二級的獨立機關那這樣子可以讓立法院能夠多監督那你放在三級的話那變成說立法院也沒有監督的機會那第二個我要提到就是說因為個資跟全國人民的關係太重大了"},{"start":9576.644,"end":9604.379,"text":"真的太重大了那你今天他的各自委員你又設計的人數又非常少只有五到七人然後裡面又有四個人是院長直接指定所以你不管是七分之四還是五分之四都等於是過半由院長決定所以我還是覺得這個數字是不妥的你第三條你五到七人這個數字不妥"},{"start":9605.299,"end":9621.569,"text":"而且院長決定指定的就過半而且過半他就可以做出決議那再來就是立法院也因為他是第一條他規定的是中央三級獨立機關所以立法院也沒有辦法監督"},{"start":9622.029,"end":9647.52,"text":"所以我認為這個委員會管的事情是人民這麼重大的事那立法院又沒有辦法監督而且院長指定的又是直接過半的人數那他還能夠獨立嗎這是我的一個想法啦所以我認為第一條的三級獨立機關我覺得是有問題的第二個第三條五到七人其實也人數也太少"},{"start":9648.884,"end":9672.524,"text":"因為我一般來說我都覺得我們國家的行政機關太膨脹了但是在這邊我反而認為五到七人是過少那對於人民的保障是不夠的好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那其實我主持很不夠威力但是我必須要說明你那個五到七人太少其他委員也有相同的看法這個都沒有拿出來討論"},{"start":9673.505,"end":9687.673,"text":"第二個也沒有要讓他火速通過都沒有我今天是剛好這些版本你稍微我也稍微我只能針對這些版本除非有人提出修正所以我剛也讓大家暢所欲言通過以後中央電視台要再表達一些意見"},{"start":9688.713,"end":9707.667,"text":"話也讓你表達 這個不要誤會 這個不要誤會這個是 大家都很清楚啦 這個是2022年憲法法庭這樣的一個誡命這變成我們立法院的一個義務啦那這也是對我們民眾的一個非常大的一個保障啦所以大家不要誤會來 接下來 其他委員 我們請審判會委員"},{"start":9711.485,"end":9730.692,"text":"主席各位同仁我剛才有跟這個我們的這個主任有在詢問的時候有請教過了那大概有一些部分剛才跟吳世耀委員跟吳宗憲委員的意見一致的我就不再重述這個但是我個人就這個剛才所講的這個"},{"start":9735.797,"end":9758.257,"text":"吳宗憲委員所講的有一個部分,在這邊我補充說明一下就是說,這個由行政院長任命的這個部分,事實上像和安會、像不當黨產處理委員會,他們的條文也都是直接,委員都是行政院長任命所以這個部分,如果說是比照的話,我是覺得當然是可以討論"},{"start":9759.838,"end":9764.082,"text":"那再來這個5到7人的部分我剛才在詢問的時候我就提過說這個我個人認為說這5到7人確實也是"},{"start":9769.511,"end":9797.003,"text":"是這個我個人認為說有是不是設定的太少了一點因為你光第四項的領域就11個領域11個領域那7個人要符合這11個領域這個最最上限是7個人要符合11個領域我個人也是認為說有更何況更何況這個5到11人這個是這個是都都是符合目前的這個委員會設置的一個辦法那"},{"start":9799.266,"end":9822.544,"text":"所以在這部分我還是等一下尊重主任的說明這主任說明說當初你們為什麼設計五到七人你們考量是什麼那現在我們如果說委員會大家比較一致的意見認為應該增加委員這個有沒有困難或是有沒有你們能不能接受這部分講因為我們還是對我們來講最重要的"},{"start":9823.525,"end":9838.657,"text":"這是剛剛大家都有講了,這是這個是憲法法庭賦予我們在三年內三年內必須要完成立法這個建立制度所以我們今天我們也不希望說因為這個人數的部分把這個法案演當啦"},{"start":9840.373,"end":9861.775,"text":"好 謝謝沈發威委員 接下來我們要請陳廷輝委員發言之前李主任你們也 機關也必須要聽一下啦現在看起來 聽起來大家都認為5到7人 這個人數是比較少啦這個草野之間大家這個意見倒是蠻共識我們等陳廷輝委員發言完以後 你們也考慮一下是不是要提個修正案 來陳廷輝委員發言"},{"start":9863.936,"end":9872.1,"text":"謝謝瑞雄召委,基本上雖然我們原本提案都是5至7人,但是經由我們在經濟委員會的討論到今天的聯審,其實我們發現說因為我們現在的個資實在是範圍太廣"},{"start":9881.423,"end":9898.281,"text":"所涉及的包括公務單位非公務單位這個部分不是我們在這個五至七人這麼少的一個範圍就可以去做這樣的一個十一個領域的一個家喻所以我也是同意應該把它"},{"start":9899.082,"end":9927.062,"text":"放到現在各委員會所有我們三級機關五至十一人的部分那我們也希望說這五至十一人他是有專業性的一些這個任命這個應該要把它在我們執法當中應該把它訂得比較清楚而不是五至十一人好像你要用怎麼樣都可以應該是要有在執法當中他的領域別"},{"start":9928.022,"end":9951.196,"text":"而且他的專業變我覺得這是對於在未來整個委員會制度比較重要那你說三級跟二級我覺得只要在我們的執法非常清楚的所謂的一個狀況執行非常確立我覺得這個三級跟二級是沒有多大的這個關係可是我也是要強調就是說我們的執法"},{"start":9953.277,"end":9967.233,"text":"很重要我其實在幾次的質詢當中我也是提出說三級有沒有辦法去對於二級單位的這些他們的個資去做管控"},{"start":9968.334,"end":9996.263,"text":"那主任說我們未來在我們的相關法規當中我們比較定的更清楚所以我們期待這個部分因為在所有的一個界限當中大家都有對於個資怎麼去管理從憲法法庭的賦予這樣的責任然後到所有最近所發生的個資問題大家已經把它放大在看"},{"start":9997.003,"end":10007.504,"text":"所以我們希望主任這部分 執法的執行很重要 謝謝好 謝謝陳廷輝委員那我們第三條 我們就先暫時保留一下等一下處理 預備回答嗎"},{"start":10014.418,"end":10041.804,"text":"來 機關說明好 謝謝趙偉跟各位委員當然我們目標都是一致的就是要把個人資料保護委員會要把它設立起來我大概分三點先做一點回應說明有關於說一個獨立機關當然還是受立法院的監督啦這些事情我們也觀察在歐盟的法制之下他們認為說獨立性並不是說立法機關也管不到你"},{"start":10042.384,"end":10058.338,"text":"所以必要的這些專案報告也好還是說預算的控制這個都還是在立法院控制之下所以這一點先做說明二就是現有的我們的學士背景當然是寫的比較多啦但當時候是因為想要把它寫清楚"},{"start":10058.959,"end":10080.664,"text":"那診病的話其實是有四大族群技術類的話就是資訊、科技跟資安法政類的話是法律、人權跟公共行政經濟類的話是經濟、商業跟管理最後跟民眾權益有關的話就是消保跟個人資料保護那時候是想說把它再寫得更多一點免得好像那個用語太蓋過"},{"start":10081.824,"end":10104.579,"text":"那本質上當然有可能就是不會說每一個這個目前寫的項目都找一個人只限於一個人可能他尤其剛剛在講說資通訊技術科技可能這方面或許一個人也可以去擔任這樣的一個角色這邊是第二個部分大概先做說明那三有關於說人力的規劃目前現在委員會的委員的人數的這個規劃委員有在想要問說那個背景"},{"start":10109.763,"end":10128.578,"text":"因為我們當時也在了解歐盟,他們畢竟獨立機關做了比較久,我們大概分成三個區塊,因為他們的法制是一個人就可以做獨立機關。我們目前國家的法制是獨立機關一定要合一制,這沒辦法操,但他們是一個人、三個人跟合一制,三種面態都有。"},{"start":10129.238,"end":10155.614,"text":"那他們的研究經驗是後來發覺慢慢都朝向走向獨任制跟三人就是合一制慢慢變少的原因就是大家有太多的意見所以在效率上面的確會增加很多在做決策的時候的一個衝擊所以我們那時候想說人數先做以跟核安會的這樣的控制的一個考量但是假如說今天因為各位委員對於人數的這部分"},{"start":10156.781,"end":10160.266,"text":"覺得說有需要再去做一點調整那這部分我覺得我們還可以再進行討論以上"},{"start":10161.803,"end":10190.518,"text":"好那我們現在這樣子啦請機關參酌我們委員的意見來擬一個修正的條文內容那如果有共識我們再請委員簽名來做修正動議的方式提出啦好不好那本案我們就先暫保留主席我提一個我的建議因為我有提案啦我願意就是我個人的提案我是希望譬如說7到11人這樣我的建議"},{"start":10191.994,"end":10217.87,"text":"好 那先請機關 這個地方 好不好這樣子就符合大家的意識了那今天其實大家很清楚啦 就是第三條增點的其實就是第三嘛 第三跟第十嘛那這第三條我們就先暫時保留那先從比較沒有爭議的開始啦 來 接下來我們來 鄭天在委員沒有不理他 沒有不理他 來 鄭天在委員 你的告見"},{"start":10220.046,"end":10243.862,"text":"因為這個第三條會跟這個第一條有關係因為第三條這個主任委員是職務比照檢認第十四支等那剛才我的對第一條的發言是希望能夠改為相當中央二級機關二級獨立機關這個部分"},{"start":10249.383,"end":10251.909,"text":"不能因為我們要提修正東西,就"},{"start":10253.727,"end":10275.938,"text":"就一定要強行通過我沒有強行通過我已經提出不同意見你這樣就不對了我是通過以後再讓你繼續發言我主席只能針對現場的版本除非有人提出修正動議我說我支持三級機關喔 鄭委員你話不要聽一半 我有說三級喔 我是說"},{"start":10282.041,"end":10306.267,"text":"長遠來講 我沒有反對三級所以不能因為 保留啦再討論啦不是啦 我就第三條 我就暫時保留啊對啊 為什麼第三條不保留呢我回趟主席的時候 你們都常常都回去我是吉利啊沒有沒有沒有 我再講一次啦不是 我們版本裡面沒有二級機關的版本我們現場也沒有任何的動議好 先第三條也沒有嗎"},{"start":10308.807,"end":10331.831,"text":"沒有所以等一下如果要通過必須要有同意啊等一下必須要有同意嘛對啊現在目前沒有但是現在是保留沒有通過啊對一致一致大家先肅靜一下主席再來還原一下主席再來還原我剛剛看了老半天第三條也沒有來來來所以現在保留啦所以沒有通過啊所以保留啊"},{"start":10335.732,"end":10351.993,"text":"不是 我通過不對 不對 不對剛剛第一條政天才委員也有意見啊不是啦你先 那個吳委員吳昭偉先聽我講不是 是你自己提出來用的意義那就你要提修正動議啊我跟大家報告啦"},{"start":10352.994,"end":10365.642,"text":"兩位委員都沒有版本 像我沒有版本我就在這裡聽大家的意見不是隨規定 委員你不是說你是資深委員嗎而且二級跟三級有沒有受國會監督一點關係當然沒有啊那吳宗憲委員要爆謠說不受國會監督的問題來我跟大家報告來聽我說一下好不好再聽我說一下好不好"},{"start":10376.889,"end":10393.347,"text":"我喔 連要休訓幾分鐘 我就要先跟你們報告我是真的很不放心 沒有人要我去通過111年我生活這麼高興的人 怎麼沒有選舉區版本那我人物跟著地頭 讓讓就讓主席 剛剛主席已經通過了跟這三個人有什麼關係"},{"start":10398.112,"end":10407.014,"text":"但在委員會裡面可以說出什麼要修訂東西你也沒有錯啊來來來 第三條保留 等一下有意見再回來第三條保留啦不是 我跟吳委員你報告喔你不要拿這句話摳我 這是不對的為什麼 我剛剛解釋得很清楚是我通過了以後 我問大家有沒有意見通過以後政天才委員要發言我說通過了你要發言 我要跟你尊重"},{"start":10427.62,"end":10449.863,"text":"阿你這反過來說什麼他有意見我強行把他通過這就不對囉這樣講就不對囉你直接講通過我還問在場有沒有不同的意見沒有我們就按照行政院的版本通過不會啦今天才委員我跟你講啦我們真正有爭議的地方在第三跟第十條嘛"},{"start":10451.445,"end":10477.835,"text":"我怎麼會不知道呢那你剛剛第三條大家講到那個委員人數的部分我也跟你說你的意見跟執政黨的委員的意見大家其實幾乎都是一致嘛那一致的話那就要請這個行政院這個地方看他擬一個修正動議合理啊哇 你們都給他發表不同意見不同意見完以後沒有人提修正案你今天一共幾個版本我們今天一共"},{"start":10479.264,"end":10497.623,"text":"一二三四五六七八啦 九個今天一共九案合併啊我不能你們九案合併在這個地方我去審另外第十案啊這沒有第十案除非你有提修正案啊不是啊 那你第三條你是提我就暫保留啊 我就辦保留啊"},{"start":10499.226,"end":10500.166,"text":"你現在說第一條沒有其他的"},{"start":10521.056,"end":10542.89,"text":"沒有修正動議 第三條也沒有 而且第三條每個人提也都是現在提修正本議 記掛了 誰不懂程序因為第一條已經通過了嘛你們第三條有意見我就保留嘛每一個人來主持 沒有意見的話本來就是通過不是嗎你就九個版本 你要我通過第十個版本 我怎麼通過第十個版本"},{"start":10544.659,"end":10565.988,"text":"好不好 我們現在進入到第10條因為我覺得沒有提案的委員然後一直在這邊我們一切都照程序我們就往下走有正義的表演保留委員會中心主義不是委員會按照最終發言就叫做委員會中心主義好嗎好 請尊重主席那我們接下來進入到"},{"start":10567.088,"end":10595.636,"text":"第四條第四條請問在場的委員有沒有不同的意見第四條如果沒有不同意見我們就按照行政院的提案通過那接下來第五條其實我跟大家報告第四條各個提案的條文內容都一樣那第五條呢各提案的條文內容也均相同請問在場的委員有沒有不同的意見"},{"start":10597.133,"end":10624.766,"text":"沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第六條請問在場委員有沒有其他不同的意見沒有的話就照行政院的提案通過第七條第七條各個提案的條文內容均相同請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第八條第八條請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見"},{"start":10626.397,"end":10637.01,"text":"沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第九條第九條請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見這個裡面的條文各提案的條文內容均相同"},{"start":10638.188,"end":10660.274,"text":"沒有的話我們第九條就按照行政院的提案通過來接下來跟大家比較剛剛有聚焦在討論的第十條就依聘用人員聘用條例的規定聘用相關專業人員跟其人數的上限有的人就認為說好像是人數太少了有人對這有爭議那第十條在場委員有沒有什麼其他不同的意見來 春天台委員"},{"start":10668.208,"end":10693.451,"text":"有關這個第十條啊 剛才我質詢的時候啊特別問這個這個主任還有任市長針對前面的條文第九條法定顏額的部分就是需要具備公務人員資格的部分到底規劃是多少人竟然沒有規劃"},{"start":10695.356,"end":10722.876,"text":"竟然沒有規劃而且是現在已經是迫在眉睫了就要送預算案預算案已經在籌編了到底要多少的公務人員需要多少的預算竟然說沒有規劃然後針對第十條竟然規劃得非常的清楚不需要公務人員任用資格的"},{"start":10724.265,"end":10750.714,"text":"規劃的那麼清楚50人所以這個是完全是一個就一個老公務員來講啊那從第8屆當立法委員到現在來講這個真的是難以想像所以而且齁而且個人資料的保護非常非常的重要既然是這麼重要"},{"start":10752.042,"end":10779.821,"text":"更應該要以公務人員禁用為主以公務人員禁用為主所以我認為這個第10條啊這個人數也講不出到底是什麼原因要定50人然後跟法定這個有關這個公務人員的部分也說不出來到底有多少人所以這個部分是一個非常大的需要這個斟酌的地方"},{"start":10784.245,"end":10810.367,"text":"請吳宗憲委員相同的我就不再多說了因為我還是覺得說設置50人而且他大量的一年一聘的約聘人員我想有幾個問題請大家一起幫忙思考就是一年一聘的約聘人員他要怎麼樣讓機關能夠穩定的運作因為他這個約聘人員量非常的大"},{"start":10811.28,"end":10834.431,"text":"那第二個就是它是涉及全國人民個人資料保護的事項那這個內容應該是非常的敏感這種屬於比較敏感的資料那也不能讓外界能夠打聽得到但是我們卻用大量的一年一聘的人員這樣對於個資的保護是否足夠"},{"start":10836.055,"end":10852.155,"text":"那第三個就是用約聘人員他的薪水真的能夠吸引到優秀人才嗎因為我剛剛看到你們的那個內容就像剛剛審發會委員有提到的說因為他涵蓋到非常多的面向"},{"start":10852.916,"end":10872.81,"text":"還有包括到那個法律資訊科技資通安全人權公共行政等等他這麼多的面向之下他又第一個他委員人數也不多第二個他又大量的用約聘人員而且是約聘人員的薪水跟他的職業保障他本來就不高"},{"start":10874.141,"end":10895.866,"text":"他接保障程度本來就不高 他不像一般的常任的文官那樣子那這有辦法吸引到優秀的人才嗎這個是我想的還有就是 既然他這個過渡期是六年那他是不是應該可以用考試的方式去招募這些人"},{"start":10897.662,"end":10909.879,"text":"我覺得這個如果大量的用約聘人員我會擔心說將來會變成是不是某些特定人會酬庸啦裡面的人是不是真的有那個"},{"start":10911.484,"end":10937.672,"text":"專長喔 這個是我們比較擔心的啦那最後我想說其實對於大部分的條文我都沒有表示意見啦因為我不是說要拖累我們今天的審查或鬧場 我不是這樣啦我只是說把我認為有問題的話說清楚那我還是覺得第一條的三級機關那個我還是有意見啦而且我對於剛剛主席認為說"},{"start":10940.616,"end":10965.785,"text":"主席在處理政天才委員政天才委員他剛剛已經表示有意見了那他也希望本條保留但主席的意思是說本條你已經審查完畢了嘛那我對這部分我是表示抗議啦但我不會用鬧場我不會像很多人習慣用鬧場的方式處理那我還是表示對第一條的部分我抗議那剛剛第十條的部分我就是如剛剛我所說明的好 謝謝主席"},{"start":10966.772,"end":10970.075,"text":"好 很符合法律人的風格但是有一點錯誤就是說你像譬如說剛剛我們"},{"start":10975.578,"end":11002.76,"text":"第三條 我說叫行政部門領一個修正動議就是我們在場的多數委員認為應該人數上來增加那第一條剛好相反第一條是多數的委員認為說就照多數的意見這樣子我才會說有沒有意義 沒有意義讓他通過一併做這樣的說明一併做這樣的一個說明來 那接下來 來 審判會委員"},{"start":11006.811,"end":11009.841,"text":"雖然有點重複了,不過我個人也是認為說,在這一條第十條,這裡"},{"start":11014.043,"end":11037.191,"text":"這裡這個釘釘這個用絕對數釘釘這個緣額不得超過50人這樣子的立法方式我個人是覺得有點突兀尤其是確實這個目前的這個緣額編制你們在第11條說各本會職生之官職職等緣額另以編制表定之你們也沒有我們不曉得未來的緣額到底是多少人"},{"start":11037.731,"end":11053.863,"text":"如果以你們現在籌備數的規模四十幾個人你裡面五十個人可以用約聘那不是全約聘嗎所以這樣的立法我真的是覺得說有點突兀了那這部分當然我看你們的立法說明裡面你們有講就是說這個"},{"start":11056.284,"end":11069.904,"text":"這個所需,這方面所需的人才,不是現在傳統公務人員任用管道,能夠即時就是說,你意思說在八月要成立的話,可能即時沒有辦法找到在傳統公務人員才找不到那麼多人,但是我覺得還是這個"},{"start":11073.762,"end":11092.974,"text":"看這個人事總署這邊有什麼樣的意見我們是不是能夠在這個立法上面能夠尋求一個方式不要這樣子我覺得個人覺得蠻奇怪的沒有編制他卻有一個約聘人員的絕對值這個我覺得這樣子的立法設計蠻奇怪的"},{"start":11096.286,"end":11120.368,"text":"不好意思主席我剛剛有一個東西沒有說清楚就是我剛剛說因為一年一聘他一個風險真的就是他審查的資料那他一年一聘完之後他資料會怎麼處理我們不知道就像地檢署他的有一些約聘人員那地檢署就不敢讓他去碰一些偵查資料因為那些資料他"},{"start":11121.049,"end":11141.171,"text":"他約滿了他就走掉了我們不知道他會拿去哪裡那一樣我對於這個第十條的這個用約聘而且是一年一聘而且量又用這麼大我還是會憂心這個會不會對於我們將來人民的個資會有一些影響好謝謝主席那是不是請機關再說明一下"},{"start":11143.868,"end":11169.431,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯跟各個委員的意見這邊我大概做兩個背景說明確實是如同委員也都有提亮到說一個機關新成立這些人才不可能在現有的公務機關就可以立刻找到比如在我們剛剛所列的這個10個裡面比如說集合那因為現在國際的一些新的ISO的標準也一直在出來跟個人資料保護有關的比如說ISO27701"},{"start":11172.433,"end":11196.865,"text":"2025年的版本今年即將又要出來有一個大的更新在熟悉這種一些新的集合的專業的一個知識公部門當然是找不出來就可能再要去外來外來去找那再參考了幾個國外的獨立機關日本他們的情況也蠻特殊的他們在2018年獨立機關正式成立"},{"start":11201.316,"end":11228.671,"text":"當時候是一百零八個員額有三分之一都不是公務人員因為剛好在他們成立的前一年我有去日本參訪的時候有問他們的情況他們也很老實的跟我們講說就是獨立機關因為在現有尤其是在跟個人資料保護其實最大的一塊會涉及到跟IT有關的這些資訊他們這方面公務人員沒有這種專才"},{"start":11230.612,"end":11240.898,"text":"所以在這部分可能我們也是面臨到確實是有這個需求那剛剛再講回到最後就是整個人數的考量本身我們業籌備處組織的編織的最上限是89人"},{"start":11246.321,"end":11275.02,"text":"那現在人總當然還沒有跟我們做最後的這個討論決定但是以未來我們現有籌備處現有的人力假設有的部分的話個人資料保安委員會成立我們這次任務請求案我們就會採測就會一波過去那時候在考量說我如果先以我們自己籌備處的89年的這個思考先去做一個參照處去考量那我們先訂一個現在先訂一個上限先不要超過50"},{"start":11276.341,"end":11304.331,"text":"當然這個人數的部分如果各位委員覺得說這個還是可以做討論的我覺得我們這部分也可以再來跟大家討論說那是不是人數的那個上限控款但是確實是有這個需求也謝謝各位委員的這個指教那剛剛我委員也有提到說就是招聘我們提議之前有跟全區部在討論一個問題說有沒有可能未來就是公務機關本身也要我們公務人員選派有個個人資料保護直系"},{"start":11305.812,"end":11331.975,"text":"就好像說資安的直系我們本來看能不能有比較最快的方式公部門自己去培養跟個人資料保護有關的相關的人才全學部大概有先跟我們回應說因為整個直系的增加他必須要參考很多事包含比如說現有的大專院校有沒有開跟個人資料保護有關的課程達一定的這個數你有沒有辦法去培養出這樣一個人才所以"},{"start":11332.775,"end":11357.09,"text":"這是我們一個長期會努力的目標剛剛因為吳委員已經有提了我們也很謝謝吳委員有這樣的一個期許那在未來個人資料保安會成立之後自己還是要從公部門去培養自己的相關這些比較特殊經驗的這樣一個鑽石人才也是我們的目標以上好 謝謝機關的說明來 請問在場委員還有沒有什麼特別好 來 鄭天才委員這個剛才我"},{"start":11362.179,"end":11385.996,"text":"也提了,就是說第九條就是這個公務人員的部分沒有規劃,這個是這個你們籌備處籌備這麼多這麼久了,竟然沒有規劃所以這個主任不是,主任這個人事法令我也很熟啊"},{"start":11387.213,"end":11415.771,"text":"所以不必用個人資料 個資的直系個人資料保護這個直系或是那個考試的那個 不用為什麼呢 因為它本來就 如果你參考這個第十條你參考你類的第十條所需要的人才它是多方面的所以多方面的我們的大學也都有這些科系"},{"start":11417.746,"end":11431.202,"text":"既然你不用公務員資格的有這些人所以你怎麼樣去培育你怎麼樣就各部會現在你也可以去你應該這段時間就要去盤點你籌備處成立到現在你就應該盤點各部會"},{"start":11435.68,"end":11459.196,"text":"包括地方政府有這方面科系的有這方面這個職系的這方面職系的專長的就應該盤點到時候我可不可以請他們來這個成立這個個資委員會的時候所以這個就是要去做的部分了"},{"start":11460.377,"end":11487.756,"text":"所以這個老公務員會去考慮這個部分像次長以前我們都是同事啊還有這個人事單位所以這個部分是這樣是一個最重要的就是說畢竟是公務人員的話他對個人資料的保護絕對會更嚴謹更有幫助不然的話你真的是難以掌控難以掌握好不好"},{"start":11489.844,"end":11495.912,"text":"好 請機關再說明再說明一下啦 你有說我就給你回應嘛我不是給你演講而已 你提出問題我要請他們說明 好不好"},{"start":11507.326,"end":11524.436,"text":"各位委員,人事總署做說明,有關各機關的組織法裡面,關於公務員的正式的原則是會在有一條,比如這個法會在11條,會另外用變質表定制,所以就具體數額不會在組織法裡面出現,這個首先說明。"},{"start":11526.457,"end":11554.691,"text":"那至於編制員的數要多少 那個籌備處他有在盤整只是說當然要賀給他要一個程序 還沒有明朗而已那這個是原有的部分那至於本條有關於用聘用的人員那聘用人員當然明顯在寫在一定的數額在這裡面是因為我們行政機關有一個通案的管制措施就是不超出預算人員的5%"},{"start":11556.532,"end":11578.13,"text":"但是如果用這個來如果沒有名列因為依個資會的這樣一個需求他有一些專業性技術性的可能要特別需求短暫可能沒辦法用正式工人取材的一定要給他一條路走那這個路走如果比例太少恐怕會對他業務的發展推展會有重大影響因為這裡才會露一個"},{"start":11578.931,"end":11592.579,"text":"一個具體的數額給他但即便給他這項數額是最高限也不是說以後的各支會想用多少就用多少他一定要報約聘計畫書這個約聘計畫書就告訴我們要有哪些的職稱多少員額工作內容是什麼他的待遇報酬如何這個要經過行政院審議相關機關審議之後才能禁用所以也不是說各支會他會50個通報來也不會行政院會"},{"start":11606.266,"end":11629.716,"text":"包括主席總書都要控管他所以這個到在人數的也不會讓他腐爛任運用那另外他雖然是一年一聘可是這個他也有考成他考成的結果如果成績優良還是隔年還是可以續聘所以他業務上如果有需要還可以繼續來續聘那在聘用的時候會有聘用合約書裡面就有各種前移物包括"},{"start":11630.416,"end":11630.456,"text":"請審判會委員"},{"start":11653.783,"end":11675.709,"text":"我這樣大概聽懂了,就是說因為我們這個行政院所屬機關各所屬各機關聘用人員注意事項裡面的第一點你們就就明定就是說各機關聘用人員齁這個其原額不超過該機關預算總人數的5%為原則啦,是原則那你的意思就是說這個"},{"start":11677.27,"end":11693.943,"text":"如果沒有第十條規定的話他就必須按照這個原則只能到百分之五現在顯然對籌備處來講這百分之五他們是做不到要在八月現在說找到公務人員只用"},{"start":11695.264,"end":11716.664,"text":"只用這個百分之五的約聘僱人員,對他們來講不是說做不到,可能功能會有很大的缺失他們想做的事情就根本沒辦法做但是如果說我們在這邊用比例來定,譬如說緣合不得超過百分之六十、百分之七十那就跟這個聘用機關這個處理條約就差太多了,人家吃五百,你一個人要用六十百、七十百"},{"start":11720.396,"end":11737.492,"text":"這樣太多了所以你們權宜之計你們用這個一個絕對給他一個絕對數來排基本上是用這一條要來排除掉這個5%的限制吧大概我是大概這樣理解那這樣理解我是可以接受啦但是我認為這是權宜啦"},{"start":11739.013,"end":11750.291,"text":"我認為這是權宜,這是在現在的初期籌備階段你過去也沒有這樣子的仔細考試那現在你又要去找這麼多的公務人員來讓這個比例能夠趨近"},{"start":11754.777,"end":11772.678,"text":"趨近這個符合規定的我覺得這真的是有點困難所以我是你這樣說明我是可以接受說那我們就先這樣子通過那未來你們原額也出來了那我們再來看這樣子的東西合不合理不合理的話我們再來提案修改這是我個人的意見 以上"},{"start":11775.313,"end":11784.238,"text":"那機關還有郭委員這樣的說明完以後啊大家對第10條還有沒有不同的意見我都已經跟大家講了不然我們第10條就先暫時保留來我們第11條第11條請問在場委員第11條的第11條請問在場委員有沒有什麼不同的意見"},{"start":11808.059,"end":11823.727,"text":"11條委員 羅庭委員提案的第11條這大家有意見嗎那個 好我是不是這條這樣子請我們機關先表達意見一下11條這有兩案嘛"},{"start":11832.968,"end":11862.422,"text":"提案委員不在羅廷偉委員的部分請機關先表達意見一下還有你行政院有自己的版本啊好張偉均各位人就是羅廷偉委員李燕秀委員的這個版本這條我們行政院是沒有寫進來那當然本來說根據住外機構組織通則第四條第二款規定說各機關一起組織法定有得派駐這個境外辦事之規定者當然得洽商外交部後"},{"start":11863.158,"end":11891.333,"text":"派源於駐外機構相關內部單位或是配屬機構來辦理業務並受所屬之駐外機構指揮跟監督固然有這個規定但是因為現行各機關如有派駐境外需求當然是會在組織法來訂那考量目前現階段各自保護的國際業務才剛開始起步我們目前有加入兩個跟各自保護有關的組織當然是在"},{"start":11892.994,"end":11914.444,"text":"一個是APEC CPPR 另外一個是Global CPPR但是現階段也沒有說有需要有派人在外面常駐所以假如這個條款我們目前因為行政院是沒有規劃說再去加駐這個條文所以我們原則上還是請委員先支持這個條文先不放"},{"start":11914.984,"end":11929.793,"text":"當然未來假如說有業務需求要洽商外交部要報起行政院核准有這個需求我們再來把這個條文放進來也無不可啦當然我們還是尊重各位委員的審查結論 以上我們第羅廷偉委員等18人的提案第11條我們就不予採納啦"},{"start":11941.328,"end":11955.579,"text":"那接下來第11條那這個各提案的條文內容其實都一樣請問在場委員對於第11條有沒有不同的意見"},{"start":11957.13,"end":11976.745,"text":"沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第十二條實行日期那請問在場委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話就按照行政院的提案通過我們現在再來看一下第三條第三條修正動議請宣讀"},{"start":12010.513,"end":12039.274,"text":"請宣讀修正動議一更正對照行政院提案第三條除第一項首具修正為本會自委員7至11人後段其餘專任委員3人職務比照檢任第12職等兼任委員2至6人第二項莫具其中3人修正為5人"},{"start":12041.052,"end":12059.906,"text":"第四項修正為本會委員應據個人資料保護法律資通訊技術公共行政經濟或消費者保護等相關學士及經驗與未修正提案人吳思堯審發會連署人陳培宇、莊瑞雄宣讀完畢"},{"start":12069.806,"end":12094.005,"text":"針對修正動議案 請問在場委員有沒有不同意見因為這個職務比照檢認第十四職等會跟第一條是不是要改為二級機關會有關係所以就建議保留"},{"start":12095.125,"end":12121.953,"text":"可是剛剛第一條不好意思主席剛剛第一條已經通過了跟第一條沒有關係我們剛剛第三條是在討論五到七人大家覺得不夠的問題所以我們提了修正動力是把人數往上加所以我們是不是可以就修正動力先來討論第三條我剛才的發言一直有強調這個職務比照檢認第14支等我沒有在談那個"},{"start":12126.192,"end":12133.818,"text":"既然有爭議就保留嘛我想這是我們委員會一直以來的慣例我們也沒有說一定誰對誰錯但是既然大家有爭議我們就先保留好嗎大部分條文我們都沒有意見我們有幾個意見我們希望這種保留的方式第十條嘛 第十條第三條大家的意見如何不然我就"},{"start":12155.775,"end":12178.076,"text":"尊重大家的意見但是我再強調一次都沒有強行通過因為就是這幾個版本裡面主席如果你們沒有提出修正動議的話我不能去審另外一個版本所以我才照第一條讓他通過一併再一次跟鄭天才委員做這樣的一個說明"},{"start":12183.935,"end":12204.067,"text":"我們本案逐條均已處理完畢 來做以下的宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會來公決本案須交由黨團協商院會討論的時候 由莊召集委員瑞雄出席說明"},{"start":12205.628,"end":12223.762,"text":"調次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語我們授權主席跟議事人員來做整理那我們議程均與處理完畢我們本次會議到此結束現在三位 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"162068","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162068","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f247c97daa986e2d73df05c7c77e5f132fd0eca21237c41e09235d124a0c032b89f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"14:40:25 - 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謝謝主席那這邊有請各自會 謝謝請李主任好"},{"start":9.758,"end":34.208,"text":"委員午安好主任你好每次只要談到各自台灣人都非常敏感我看到一個有趣的新聞跟主任分享但我覺得台灣很難做到啦看到那個因應歐洲的這個緊張的情勢德國最近要聯絡他們的退伍軍人結果各自保護得太好竟然找不到人我覺得這事情非常神奇但我覺得台灣一步步走到那邊我們需要很長的時間等一下有個故事也可以跟委員分享看但是他們叫我要準時下來這樣是是是好"},{"start":36.209,"end":50.511,"text":"也就是說個資這件事情確實有很大的進步空間那現在散落在各個單位的個資管理我認為未來我們台灣需要一個完整的個資保護政策我也期待後續的修法我們可以往這裡前進目前我們看到就公務機關來看"},{"start":51.733,"end":51.853,"text":"是是"},{"start":80.959,"end":95.417,"text":"我們來看下一個,這也是最近一直發生的新聞,其實台灣的人民會很不舒服,包含南投、花蓮、基隆都有這些民政機關,他們不當的利用公民的個資做反霸這個事情。"},{"start":96.058,"end":121.98,"text":"那当然这个新闻呛降的个案确实会让人民意识到各资这件事情看起来不会只有过往大家熟悉的私部门企业其实在很多公务机关里面确实有这个状态但时间有限我想后续在修法的时候我们持续往这里前进所以要拜托各资会成立后针对避免公务员不当利用各资的部分做防治跟拟定相关政策还要拜托各资会筹备处成立"},{"start":122.6,"end":139.175,"text":"整理出目前你們已經有掌握到公務員違反個資法的常見樣態對於後續的行政機關做相關教育跟宣導這些事情有沒有機會在半年內完成委員 榮獲業這部分其實走在我們前面做的更多是法務部的廉政署"},{"start":144.42,"end":155.245,"text":"因為他們對於所有的公部門有關於說資料不能去做誤用那你能不能說因為他們做的確比較多所以你們可以跟他們請教把他們有收集到這些相關的樣態做你們後續修法如何防止公務機關這個部分我們再跟他們請教來 下一張"},{"start":163.428,"end":189.646,"text":"那除了這個好 下一個來民間 前一張民間企業的部分其實人民也很多疑慮啦從我們一般人都很熟悉的最近有醫院的各自外卸的問題電信啦 百貨啦 超商啦 電商其實一陣子一陣子都會有相關新聞那目前甚至其實前一陣子也有韓國電信各自外卸的問題我相信像這樣的私部門企業我們到底後續可以怎麼做應該也是你們後續要討論的方向"},{"start":191.407,"end":219.411,"text":"接下來還有一個我覺得也比較詭異的但是確實在台灣發生過在2018年當時體育單項協會有人頭會員的問題後來是因為檢調單位介入相關的事情才有開始稍微調整這個狀態我們也很擔心後續也就是說在各式各樣的機構只要他們有各式各樣的資料就有可能做不當的利用所以時間有限我們直接切到最後一張我要拜託各資會在針對後續各資法修法的部分只要有涉及"},{"start":219.631,"end":247.465,"text":"大量的個人資料而且有公共安全的一律的私部門都要加強納管的強度當然需要跟相關團體討論收集民間第一線的聲音不要只有閉門造局但我認為私部門這件事情非常重要還有就是我剛剛說的針對體育單項協會因為未來運動部成立之後一定會有相關的樣態可能是我們必須要去注意到的我今天也一併提醒好不好好那時間還有八分八秒鐘你要不要講那個有趣的故事德國那個"},{"start":248.465,"end":275.844,"text":"太短了就是其實一樣德國我記得在2015年的時候他們有一個德國之夜的航空公司因為副駕駛開飛機去撞山大家可能還有這個印象死了150人當時我就面臨一個問題德國的那個各自法院管制的真的很嚴格那明明是精神醫師是知道說這個副駕駛他有些精神狀況但是因為沒有具體作用法去說他這個東西要去跟就是說"},{"start":277.185,"end":288.839,"text":"航空所謂的民航局單位去做通報所以就變成這個資訊因為在德國他們是特種個人資料所以就沒有去做提供因為各自保護管制很嚴"},{"start":289.52,"end":307.248,"text":"所以等到後來調查結果就發現這個機師原來是在撞山前一年就已經有很多精神狀況但是他們的所謂人民航的部門完全沒有辦法掌握到連航空公司沒辦法掌握到所以德國個資做得好是全世界都知道的好 謝謝主任 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（14時40分）謝謝主席，有請個資會，謝謝。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["陳委員培瑜：主任，你好。每次只要談到個資，臺灣人都非常敏感，我看到一個有趣的新聞跟主任分享，但我覺得臺灣很難做到，看到因應歐洲的緊張情勢，德國最近要聯絡他們的退伍軍人，結果個資保護得太好，竟然找不到人。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得這事情非常神奇，當然我覺得臺灣一步步走到那邊，我們需要很長的時間。"],["李主任世德：等一下有個故事也可以跟委員分享。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但是他們叫我要準時下來。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["陳委員培宜：也就是說個資這件事情確實有很大的進步空間，現在散落在各個單位的個資管理，我認為未來我們臺灣需要一個完整的個資保護政策，我也期待後續的修法，我們可以往這裡前進。"],["李主任世德：謝謝委員支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前我們看到就公務機關來看，有非常多公務機關都有相關的新聞傳出，不管是警政、社政、司法、衛政、教育，只要公務人員想要，好像就可以打開相關的系統，找到我們很多人的個資，所以我想未來個資會成立之後，我們第一個要做的事情是要去思考如何防止公務機關有不當的個資查閱跟利用，我相信在現行你們對於未來的政策想像，應該已經開始討論這個部分了，對不對？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。那我們來看下一個，這也是最近一直發生的新聞，其實臺灣人民真的會很不舒服，包含南投、花蓮、基隆都有這些民政機關不當利用公民個資做反罷這個事情，當然這個新聞、像這樣的個案，確實會讓人民意識到個資這件事情看起來不會只有過往大家熟悉的私部門企業，其實在很多公務機關裡面確實有這個狀態，但時間有限，我想後續在修法的時候，我們持續往這裡前進。所以要拜託個資會成立後，針對避免公務員不當利用個資的部分做防制跟擬定相關政策，還有要拜託個資會籌備處整理出目前你們已經有掌握到公務員違反個資法的常見樣態，對於後續的行政機關做相關教育跟宣導，這些事情有沒有機會在半年內完成？"],["李主任世德：委員，這部分走在我們前面做得更多的就是法務部的廉政署，因為他們對於所有公部門有關於資料不能誤用，他們做得的確比較多……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們可以跟他們請教。"],["李主任世德：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：把他們有收集到的相關樣態，做為你們後續修法如何防止公務機關這個部分。"],["李主任世德：OK，我們再跟他們請教。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。在民間企業的部分，其實人民有很多疑慮，從我們一般人很熟悉的最近有醫院個資外洩的問題，電信、百貨、超商、電商，其實一陣子、一陣子都會有相關新聞，甚至前一陣子也有韓國電信個資外洩的問題，我相信像這樣的私部門企業到底後續可以怎麼做？應該也是你們後續要討論的方向。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來還有一個我覺得也比較詭異，但是確實在臺灣發生過，在2018年當時體育單項協會有人頭會員的問題，後來是因為檢調單位介入，相關事情才開始稍微調整，這個狀態我們也很擔心後續，也就是說在各式各樣的機構，只要他們有各式各樣的資料，就有可能做不當的利用。","因為時間有限，我們直接切到最後，我要拜託個資會在針對後續個資法修法的部分，只要有涉及大量的個人資料，而且有公共安全疑慮的私部門都要加強納管的強度，當然需要跟相關團體討論，收集民間第一線的聲音，不要只有閉門造車，但我認為私部門這件事情非常重要。還有就是我剛剛說的針對體育單項協會，因為未來運動部成立之後，一定會有相關的樣態可能是我們必須要去注意到的，我今天一併提醒，好不好？"],["李主任世德：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：時間還有8秒鐘，你要不要講德國那個有趣的故事？"],["李主任世德：我記得在2015年的時候，德國有一個德國之翼航空公司，因為副駕駛開飛機去撞山，大家可能還有這個印象，死了150人。當時就面臨一個問題，德國的個資法因為管制得真的很嚴格，明明精神科醫師知道這個副駕駛有些精神狀況，但是因為沒有具體作用法說這個東西要去向所謂民航局的單位通報，因為在德國是特種個人資料，個資保護管制很嚴，所以就變成這個資訊並沒有提供，等到後來調查結果發現該名機師原來在撞山前一年就已經有很多精神狀況，但是他們所謂的民航部門完全沒有辦法掌握到，連航空公司也沒辦法掌握到，就是因為個資保護得太嚴。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以德國個資做得好是全世界都知道的。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主任、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本聯席會。","委員張嘉郡、謝衣鳯、李坤城、邱議瑩、邱志偉所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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請問一下這幾個條文第一個是關於這個兼任委員在這個草案裡頭提到準用公職人員利益迴避法那我請教一下你們的第10條啊 聘這個聘用人員你們有一個上限50人的這個聘用人員嗎"},{"start":28.516,"end":42.587,"text":"那這個聘用人員因為為了就是說有些課題是蠻專業的所以你們要聘用各式各樣的非公務員可以這樣講那這些人都不准用公職人員利益迴避嗎你可以先回答一下"},{"start":49.452,"end":70.931,"text":"因為他本來就有公務員服務法那邊的規定的適用公務員服務法那邊也有一些有關利益迴避的規範因為你們特別把兼任委員說他准用公職人員利益迴避特別提這件事"},{"start":72.076,"end":88.649,"text":"那顯然是你們認知是不是監政委員其他的因為利益衝突迴避法他本來在他所謂的公職人員他就有一定的範圍像他可能就是說可能是一些比較是主管級的我知道那那這個你們聘用的那50位以下的"},{"start":89.489,"end":113.067,"text":"他其實就是還是會有公務員服務法相關規定的適用所以他還是 那但是他不是適用公職人員利益回避法對對 因為公職人員他本來他公職人員就有一定的限縮在一定範圍比如說他是辦什麼採購啊或會計會計人員的相關主管啊或是說他是政務人員他才會有那個公職人員利益衝突回避法的適用那現在設計這些聘用人員的最高的職稱位是什麼"},{"start":119.01,"end":129.355,"text":"裡面有主委有委員有主任秘書現在上面看到了那再往下會不會是有聘用到聘用人員"},{"start":130.157,"end":150.803,"text":"因為聘用人員他會將來我們還是要你去這個聘用計畫書然後報請這個人總這邊去做一個核定所以到時候會依聘用計畫書裡面去去用這個相關的這個聘用人員的名稱OK好所以最後人總會核定好請問一下這個主任你有沒有用過淘寶啊個人是沒有好"},{"start":155.575,"end":177.92,"text":"那淘寶要加入會員的時候,他一個選項是用Nine的帳號然後你要加進去的時候,Nine的帳號他要求你的主要個人的資訊你的email,在裡頭的識別碼都必須提供,他沒有別的選擇你要加入你就告訴他說我通通給你"},{"start":179.914,"end":206.281,"text":"這個會不會是接下來我們這個委員會會關心的事情這部分因為是涉及到所謂的數位身份識別的一種手法但是假如說他的目前另外一個平台直接就把資料pass過來是基於說當事人同意有個同意的外觀那當然是先用當事人同意那當然是要你同意啦就是說你加入的時候你不同意你就不能加入嘛我是就是說"},{"start":207.842,"end":221.535,"text":"有人為了加入貪小便宜買淘寶貪小便宜他就給了可是他不知道他給了之後是有風險的因為這也是你們第二條的跨境傳輸對淘寶當然是跨境傳輸那這個部分我是"},{"start":226.78,"end":250.66,"text":"這個建議你們接下來這個關於這一個跨境的這種課題可能要特別的關注或者我們的消費者可能會到時候遇到這種事情也不知道怎麼辦因為他不按他就不能加入會員第二個在第二條裡頭你們有提到一個叫教育訓練跟宣導第二條你們有一個業務叫教育訓練跟宣導你們的這個教育訓練跟宣導的對象會是誰"},{"start":255.868,"end":285.491,"text":"目前當然會有幾個層面一個是說全國性的那就是一般的Avenis那種通用認知的這一種不管是透過網路啊還是說請人到各個只要是公民這個鄉鎮公園去做這樣的一個宣導希望你們也會對一般民眾宣導對一般民眾宣導那另外一個就是那你們的工作量不會很大嗎就是未來這部分一定要跟公司協就是所謂的公協會去做合作對這個可能到時候跟數位部啊"},{"start":286.191,"end":298.619,"text":"教育部 很多單位都要一起合作因為我看到你們寫的好像都要你們做你們不可能 你們來這裡就沒有幾個人還要做這個事情我們會用政策推進的那個會議裡面去跟其他的機關去合作"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（14時27分）主席，請李主任。"],["主席：有請李主任。"],["王委員義川：主任好。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["王委員義川：請問一下這幾個條文，第一個是關於兼任委員，在這個草案裡頭提到準用公職人員利益迴避法，我請教一下關於第十條的聘用人員，你們有一個上限50人的聘用人員。"],["李主任世德：對。"],["王委員義川：聘用人員是因為有些課題滿專業的，所以你們要聘用各式各樣的非公務員，可以這樣講。"],["李主任世德：對。"],["王委員義川：這些人都不準用公職人員利益迴避嗎？"],["林組長裕嘉：應該說聘僱人員本來就有公務員服務法規定的適用，公務員服務法那邊也有一些有關利益迴避的規範。"],["王委員義川：因為你們特別規定兼任委員準用公職人員利益迴避嘛！"],["林組長裕嘉：對。"],["王委員義川：特別提這件事，顯然你們的認知兼任委員，其他的……"],["林組長裕嘉：報告委員，因為利益衝突迴避法所謂的公職人員就有一定的範圍，可能是一些比較主管級或是……"],["王委員義川：我知道，但是你們聘用那50位以下的部分呢？"],["林組長裕嘉：他們其實還是會有公務員服務法相關規定的適用。"],["王委員義川：但是它是不適用公職人員利益迴避法？"],["林組長裕嘉：對，因為公職人員本來就限縮在一定範圍，比如說他是辦什麼採購，或是會計人員的相關主管，或是說他是政務人員，他才會有公職人員利益衝突迴避法的適用。"],["王委員義川：好，現在設計這些聘用人員的最高職稱會是什麼？"],["林組長裕嘉：應該是說……"],["王委員義川：你們有主委、有委員、有主任秘書，現在上面看到的，再往下會不會用到聘用人員？"],["林組長裕嘉：因為聘用人員將來我們還是要擬具聘用計畫書，然後報請人總這邊去做一個核定，所以到時候會依聘用計畫書去用相關的聘用人員名稱。"],["王委員義川：好，所以最後人總會核定？"],["林組長裕嘉：對。"],["王委員義川：請問一下主任，你有沒有用過淘寶？"],["李主任世德：個人是沒有。"],["王委員義川：好。淘寶要加入會員的時候有一個選項是用LINE的帳號，然後要加進去的時候，LINE帳號要求主要的個人資訊、email、以及裡頭的識別碼都必須提供，它沒有別的選擇，你要加入就要統統給。"],["李主任世德：嗯。"],["王委員義川：這個會不會是接下來我們這個委員會會關心的事情？"],["李主任世德：這部分應該是涉及到所謂數位身分識別的一種手法，但是假如說另外一個平臺直接就把資料pass過來是基於當事人同意，有個同意的外觀，那當然是先用當事人同意……"],["王委員義川：當然是要同意，就是說加入的時候不同意就不能加入嘛！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["王委員義川：我的意思是說有人為了加入，貪小便宜、買淘寶貨，他就給了，可是他不知道他給了之後是有風險的，因為這也是你們第二條的跨境傳輸，對淘寶當然是跨境傳輸嘛！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["王委員義川：針對這個部分，我是建議你們接下來關於跨境的課題，可能要特別的關注。"],["李主任世德：好，謝謝委員指教，我們會記得。"],["王委員義川：否則我們的消費者到時候遇到這種事情也不知道怎麼辦，因為他不按就不能加入會員。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["王委員義川：第二個，在第二條裡頭你們有提到一個業務叫教育訓練跟宣導，你們的教育訓練跟宣導的對象會是誰？"],["李主任世德：目前會有幾個層面，一個是全國性的，也就是一般awareness通用認知的這種，不管是透由網路，還是請人到各鄉鎮公所去做這樣的宣導……"],["王委員義川：所以你們也會對一般民眾宣導？"],["李主任世德：對。另外一個就是針對公私部門。"],["王委員義川：那你們的工作量不會很大嗎？"],["李主任世德：未來這部分一定要跟公協會合作。"],["王委員義川：對，這個可能到時候要跟數位部、教育部等等很多單位都要一起合作。"],["李主任世德：對，沒錯。"],["王委員義川：因為我看到你們寫的好像統統要你們做，你們不可能。"],["李主任世德：應該不會。"],["王委員義川：你們裡面就沒幾個人，還要做這個事情。"],["李主任世德：我們會用政策推進的會議去跟其他機關取得合作。"],["王委員義川：OK，謝謝，加油。"],["李主任世德：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，有夠厲害，你將我們等一下要逐條討論的都問完了，代表每一個辦公室都有做準備。"],["主席：現在休息5分鐘，等一下我們繼續。","休息（14時32分）","繼續開會（14時40分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來有請陳培瑜委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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國賠法不管是國家賠償法第二條或者是第四條"},{"start":160.54,"end":182.024,"text":"都認為說國家應該先行賠償然後對於公務員有故意或重大過失的他必須要在另外求償所以我覺得這部分除了應該大家要提出國賠之外我們也要去督促啊到底誰洩漏個資不可以讓他雲淡風輕國家要有代位的一個求償這個應該是要貫徹的好不好"},{"start":185.335,"end":210.201,"text":"不然你沒辦法懲罰嘛你沒有實質的懲罰他永遠公務員洩漏個資的時候雲淡風輕 好吧 道個歉結束了 是這樣嗎 不可能是這樣好不好 各位我們在第二階段在做用法的部分會再展開一個全面的這個部分的意見我們會把它納入對 那當然在做用法的部分還在檢討那我想在最後一分鐘我再跟主任再來討論就是說 事實上在"},{"start":211.361,"end":231.521,"text":"這一次111年的憲判制13號他強調的一個個資他認為說你客觀上有還原而間接識別當事人的可能即使資料經過處理只要在客觀上存在任何特定方法可以還原並間接識別特定人的可能性該資料仍屬於個人資料"},{"start":233.303,"end":251.15,"text":"所以我們知道說在憲判制這個13號的一個出爐之後你去識別化的資料你只要能夠再用特定方法可以再去還原然後把這個去識別的人再把它特定化然後就可以知道這個人 仍然是屬於個資"},{"start":252.831,"end":258.718,"text":"好 那基於這樣的一個憲判之初 如後我們知道說過去有包括113年這個法務部113年的103035 13040號認為去識別化的極非屬個人資料或是105年法 這個法律自105035 10730號"},{"start":275.096,"end":291.777,"text":"認為可能間接識別生存存在的個人資料就是個人資料為特定目的外的利用所以又不是屬於個人資料所以有好幾次的一個含釋都排除掉去識別化的資料"},{"start":292.378,"end":309.073,"text":"但是大法官甚至卻進一步的 哇 他又更開闊的去講說你只要經過特定方法把去識別化的再把它海撈或者是其他的資料 Google的資料再把它補充起來你就可以知道這個人是誰仍然是屬於這一個"},{"start":311.294,"end":331.771,"text":"這個屬於個人資料 那範圍就不是像單純文字講那麼簡單的喔不是說身份證我都蓋起來 我的出生年月日都蓋起來這樣就是屬於沒有影響各自的 範圍變得很大喔所以主任面對這樣的一個轉變而且事實上現在整個網路資訊的時代"},{"start":336.114,"end":352.368,"text":"勢必也會變這樣所以這部分你們必須要做更多努力包括說過去的這相關的一個含釋是不是有需要檢討改進的必要請你接受該來者會 這個在第二階段的修法會有這個議題而且蠻重要的謝謝委員長好 那就期待好 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請邱志偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":379,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時21分）謝謝主席，有請李主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：召委午安。"],["蔡委員易餘：主任好。我們今天是討論組織法，經濟委員會同樣會討論作用法，我想要請教主任，最近臺灣不管是在公務或是非公務都有個資外洩，在公務的部分，事實上剛剛莊瑞雄召委也有講到最近尤其像基隆的案件是非常的極端，由公務員直接外洩去協助罷免，剛剛羅智強也有講到包括教育部次長可能也都涉及到把個資展露給大家，這些都是需要被檢討的。但是非公務機關，尤其是我們每天都會接到很多類似銀行問你要不要貸款或者是一些詐騙集團打來給你的電話，這是非公務機關的外洩，請問我們成立了這樣一個個資會後，要怎麼防堵這樣的個資外洩的狀況？你們具體的作為呢？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，我覺得這件事情應該是說整個個人資料保護管理的意識，在目前現階段其實還是比較屬於表面，到底要怎麼做，大家還不知道如何去進行，所以未來成立個人資料保護委員會之後，除了剛剛我提到的有一個六年回收分管，有明確目的之外，還會暫時跟中央目的事業主管機關一起來合作，但是未來由個人資料保護委員會監管的部分，在第十八條和第二十條之一，剛剛委員已經特別強調對於非公務機關要如何來去強化跟落實，這裡面還包含軟性的部分當然是教育和宣導，至於法規的部分，則要跟中央目的事業主管機關一起來合作。"],["蔡委員易餘：主任，對於這種個資外洩，事前預防很重要，但是事後的懲罰才真的可以遏止未來再有個資外洩，比方說像基隆的事件，我就認為基本上這一些個資被外洩的人應該要提出國賠，不管是國家賠償法第二條或者是第四條，都認為國家應該先行賠償，然後對於有故意或重大過失的公務員必須要再另外求償，所以我覺得這部分除了應該要提出國賠之外，我們也要去督促，到底是誰洩漏個資，不可以讓他雲淡風輕的過去，國家要有代位的一個求償，這個應該是要貫徹的。好不好？"],["李主任世德：OK，這個部分我們會列入……"],["蔡委員易餘：不然你沒辦法懲罰嘛！沒有實質的懲罰，公務員洩漏個資的時候永遠是雲淡風輕──好吧！道個歉，結束了。是這樣嗎？不可能是這樣。好不好？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，我們在第二階段的作用法部分會再展開一個全面的討論，這個部分的意見我們會把它納入。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然作用法的部分還是要檢討，在最後一分鐘我要再跟主任討論的就是111年的憲判字第13號強調所謂個資是指「客觀上有還原而間接識別當事人的可能」，亦即即使資料經過處理，只要在客觀上存在任何特定方法可以還原並間接識別特定人的可能性，該資料仍屬於個人資料，所以我們知道在憲判字第13號出爐之後，去識別化的資料只要能夠用特定方法再去還原、再把這個去識別的人特定化，然後就可以知道這個人，仍然是屬於個資。基於這樣一個憲判字出爐後，我們知道過去法務部103年法律字第10303513040號函釋，認為去識別化即非屬個人資料，或是105年法律字第10503510730號認為可能間接識別生存特定個人的個人資料，就是個人資料為特定目的外之利用，所以又不是屬於個人資料，有好幾次函釋都排除掉去識別化的資料，但是大法官釋字卻進一步又更開闊的說，只要經過特定方法把去識別化的再海撈，或者是其他資料、google的資料再把它補充起來，你就可以知道這個人是誰，仍然是屬於個人資料，哇！那範圍就不是單純像文字講得那麼簡單喔！不是把身分證蓋起來、把出生年月日蓋起來，這樣就是屬於沒有影響個資了，範圍變得很大喔！"],["李主任世德：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：主任，面對這樣一個轉變，而且事實上現在整個網路資訊的時代勢必也會變這樣，所以這部分你們必須要做更多努力，包括過去這些相關的函釋是不是有需要檢討改進的必要？這些是不是都要做？"],["李主任世德：會，這個在第二階段的修法會有這個議題，而且滿重要的，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那就期待，謝謝。"],["李主任世德：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱志偉，邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","王義川委員請質詢。王義川委員質詢後，我們先休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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剛剛還講到 未來當然是公務機關院會納管這部分還是會回到 剛才說是屬於安全維護義務的一環那不管怎麼樣陳情仁的這些資料我們當然 剛剛已經有講到說有保密義務在現有的行政程序法經由那在個資法裡面是有關是安全維護義務那這兩個部分的話 法律規定"},{"start":304.102,"end":316.592,"text":"我們應該會在同時來這個加強落實以上好 謝謝主任希望我們各支會如果加以成立的話相關類似的狀況都能夠加以掌握以上 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時15分）謝謝主席，有請李主任。"],["主席：有請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["羅委員智強：主任好。教育部次長葉丙成上個月21日在個人臉書跟校內社群平台發文談及臺大的性平案時，他上傳的對話截圖包括受害女學生的真實姓名等敏感資訊，導致當事人的個資外洩，受害學生在社群平台上控訴葉丙成洩漏個資，並表示「我是個人，不是你政治操弄的工具」，強烈譴責葉丙成的行為。受害者學生說「你踐踏著我的傷口和隱私，鞏固著你的形象跟權力」、「葉丙成，你純白的人設，潑染著性案件被害人鮮紅的血淚」，女學生事後多次要求葉丙成刪文，卻沒有獲得即時回應，直到一個月後也就是這個月21日的下午，葉丙成才完全刪除相關的內容。當時葉次長表示他沒有想到善意的舉動無意中帶來困擾，但受害女學生表示她至今仍然不清楚葉丙成究竟是透過什麼方式、憑藉何種權力取得她的個資，保護性侵受害者的個人資訊是社會基本的倫理跟道德界線，不管是在哪個領域，誰跨過這個線就不該再談教育、談善良、談責任，她也認為葉次長的行為造成她難以挽回的傷害，某部分剝奪她未來30年的人生。","我想要幫這位女學生問的是，個人資料保護法規定，洩露他人個資，意圖損害他人利益，致生損害他人者，最高可處5年以下有期徒刑，得併科100萬元以下罰金；公務員假借職務上的權力、機會或方法洩露個資，可加重其刑至二分之一。請問主任，你怎麼樣來幫忙回答一下這位女學生的一個提問，到底他是怎麼取得她的個資然後讓她去面對這樣的傷害？葉次長的作法有沒有違反個資法的規定？對於受害女學生的權益保障，不知道職司籌備我們個人資料保護委員會的李主任有什麼建議給受害女學生？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，因為個人資料保護委員會還沒有成立，所以按照現行的規定，公務機關部分並沒有納管，現在的話當然是由他的上級機關還有機關本身來處理。剛剛有提到刑事犯罪，如果說有涉及到第四十一條那部分的話，就回到刑事犯罪，被害人當然還是依照刑事訴訟法的規定去主張他的權利。因為未來公務機關部分也有納管，我們覺得這個議題應該會先擺在安全維護義務，假如這裡面是有涉及到資料的蒐集、處理、利用，雖然是由有權責之人去保管，但是資料要怎麼樣去做使用、安全維護控管如何，我們剛剛在前面有跟委員報告過，未來個資法第十八條有關個人資料的管理我們會再訂定授權辦法，在那邊當然會有一些更細的規定去推廣跟落實，就是資料不要超過目的之外的使用。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝主任，事實上這件事後續的發展，不只這位受害女學生的個資外洩，媒體也報導有18位網友，因為不滿葉次長的作為，寫信到教育部長信箱陳情，聲援受害的女學生，但事後卻發現他們的個資無一例外，全部外流，對這類公務機關洩露個資情事，個資會成立之後要怎麼去監管？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，假如是去申訴檢舉，按照現行行政程序法，本來就規定陳情的這部分要保密，所以假設說有涉及到陳情的相關資訊洩密，那當然還是應該要回到機關先進行調查，但是剛才講到未來公務機關會納管，所以這部分還是會回到剛才說的屬於安全維護義務的一環，但不管怎麼樣，陳情人的這些資料，剛才有講到在現有的行政程序法已經規定有保密義務，在個資法裡面則是規定有安全維護義務，這兩個部分的法律規定我們應該會同時來加強落實。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝主任，我們個資會如果將來成立的話，希望相關類似的狀況都能夠加以掌握。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","接下來有請我們蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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意思就是說到底是政府要去違法 蓄意去違法還是他的一個法律的一個專業上的一個認知上這麼的一個薄弱這個很可怕第一個你看花蓮"},{"start":112.972,"end":136.264,"text":"你說這一次的連署裡面 這些疑點裡面選委會本來應該就是寄出詢問單去通知 當事人來澄清結果呢 花蓮這個民政處 處長直接把整份的提議書丟給互證機關然後叫互證人員挨家挨戶去按門鈴問人家說這個簽名到底是不是你的這個很明顯就違反了我們整個個資保護法第16條公務機關對於個人資料的一個利用"},{"start":139.305,"end":158.052,"text":"這個很明顯就違法了那第二個就是這幾天你看到藍投這個部分我看了其實也是非常痛心的一樣戶政系統裡面的資料依法你只能供選委會去做查姓名戶籍甚至原名身份等等並沒有任何一個法院可以拿來做比對的這樣的一個筆記啊可是呢"},{"start":159.052,"end":172.447,"text":"負證機關他所保存這些民眾的一個簽章理論上而且本質上不能被選委拿來做比對的一個依據結果這幾天南投縣選委會自己去發明了發明新招把負證資料拿來當筆記鑑定師看到簽名這樣"},{"start":176.491,"end":191.179,"text":"歪一點嘛比劃多一下直接把它當成假聯署再做一個處理這根本就不叫依法行政這是自己創造這樣的一個規則來做政治上的一個審查那我很擔心的就是說他搞不好他也沒有這個意識"},{"start":192.878,"end":214.199,"text":"搞不好這些地方政府他也認為說沒有啦 我就想要比較謹慎的核對出來但是他們不知道這個已經都侵犯到個人資料的一個保護啊另外第三個你去看喔 更誇張的就是這個基隆罷團收不到聯署書 怎麼辦 不是補件直接 就是罷免那些議員的 直接去找副政機關撈資料來造冊"},{"start":216.881,"end":227.926,"text":"還是民政處的處長親自下令幫這個霸團去開後門這很可怕 這真的很可怕那我看看 其實如果很多的霸團裡面這是國民黨的一個霸團裡面可能還是超超黨員名冊而已"},{"start":234.56,"end":252.407,"text":"還是超小黨的名冊而已你可以講說 那就違反了 電管交代可是政府機關啊你看基隆這個機關首長直接把負政機關負政系統變成選舉的武器庫把公權力變成一個正正的幫兇啊這個已經不叫濫用了我不知道李主任你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":253.806,"end":267.2,"text":"跟委員報告當然未來個人資格保護會成立的時候公共辦公室也是全面的納管剛剛也有提到說所有的公務部門他的上級機關我們也會跟他保持一個這樣子一個"},{"start":268.005,"end":297.125,"text":"平台我們在政策推進會議裡面相關的這些議題當然在未來個人資料保安會成立的時候也會很像的來跟他們討論尤其剛剛所提到很重要的是我們的戶籍法因為戶籍法是一個已經非常久的法它的主管機關雖然說對於這個法有它的一些認識適用的一些地方但是講到一談到說個人資料的收集處理利用當然還是要謹遵戶籍法的相關規定那選法法也是一樣啦"},{"start":298.845,"end":313.31,"text":"其實我是一直搞不懂國民黨到底怎麼了你像比如說謝國良市長那當年其實還是立委的時候還曾代表國民黨去參加個資法修法的一個協商你說當年其實大家都搖起吶喊在立法院的時候說要鎖住個資法"},{"start":314.95,"end":340.027,"text":"結果就變成把這個圍牆給拆掉了他把鑰匙雙手這樣去縫上這個是讓人覺得是非常非常非常不生虛虛的一個地方我們也看到其他的喔你說像新北市啊就曾經發生消防局的人員非法去查詢各支系統然後給殯葬業者甚至於去變賣這樣的魔力那新竹也是一樣我們看到這個我們今天在審查這一些啊 這些亂象"},{"start":341.684,"end":369.479,"text":"這些亂象我相信今天這不是一個組織法它是一個也不是多設一個委員會而是要建立一道堅實的各自的一個防火牆真正能夠達到強化各自保護的一個效能我們也期待我們等一下的一個主條裡面大家可以集思廣益讓整部法能夠更完善然後對國人整個各自的保護提供更好的堅實的一個保護好 謝謝"},{"start":371.445,"end":371.466,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（14時9分）謝謝主席，有請我們李主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：召委午安。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主任好。其實在2022年我們憲法法庭作出憲判字第13號這樣的一個解釋，就已經很明確的指出個人資料保護應該有獨立的監管機關跟監督機制，這個其實都不是今天在討論的所謂政策上的選擇，反而是一個憲法上的義務，現在這部組織法最主要的一個目標就是真正去落實「獨立監管」這四個字，所以本席在這邊其實也要提醒，剛剛幾位委員的指教也不無我們必須要去深入去探討的，因為最主要這個真的是要說服國人。"],["李主任世德：我們會聽取幾位委員這樣的建議。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們今天在審查個人資料保護委員會的組織法，我必須要先講的是其實它不只是單純的一部組織法，它更是政府在資訊時代對全國人民隱私保障的一個基本交代，也是國家展現強化個資保護的一個決心，可是反觀最近大家看到的個資相關問題裡面，一些詐騙集團或者說個人去侵害，這個都已經是很糟糕了，更何況如果是政府帶頭或者政府機關自己本身去違法，那就更糟糕了！我簡單舉幾個例子，看看到底是政府要蓄意違法還是它在法律專業上的認知這麼的薄弱，這個很可怕。","第一個來看花蓮，這一次連署裡面的這些疑點，選委會本來應該是寄出詢問單去通知當事人來澄清，結果呢？花蓮這位民政處處長直接把整份的提議書丟給戶政機關，然後叫戶政人員挨家挨戶去按門鈴，問人家說這個簽名到底是不是你的，這個很明顯就違反了我們個資保護法第十六條有關公務機關對於個人資料之利用的規定，這個很明顯就違法了。","第二個就是這幾天看到南投這個部分，我看了其實也是非常痛心，同樣的，戶政系統裡面的資料依法只能供選委會去查姓名、戶籍甚至原民身分等等，並沒有任何一個法源可以拿來做比對筆跡之用，戶政機關所保存的這些民眾的簽章，理論上而且本質上不能被選委會拿來做比對的一個依據，結果這幾天，南投縣選委會自己發明新招，把戶政資料拿來當筆跡鑑定師，看到簽名這樣歪一點、筆劃多一下，就直接把它當成假連署處理，這根本就不叫依法行政，這是自己創造這樣一個規則來做政治上的審查，我很擔心的就是搞不好他也沒有這個意識、搞不好這些地方政府也認為他們沒怎麼樣，就是想要更謹慎的核對出來而已，但是他們不知道這個已經侵犯到個人資料的保護。","第三個更誇張，就是基隆，罷團收不到連署書，那怎麼辦？結果不是補件，而是直接去找戶政機關撈資料來造冊，還是民政處的處長親自下令幫這個罷團去開後門，這很可怕！這真的很可怕！其實很多的罷團，比如國民黨的罷團可能還是抄抄黨員名冊而已，你可以說這是為了上頭的交代，可是那是政府機關，基隆這個機關首長直接把戶政機關、戶政系統變成選舉的武器庫，把公權力變成政爭的一個幫兇，這個已經不叫濫用。不知道李主任你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，未來個人資料保護會成立的時候，當然公務部門也是要全面納管，剛剛也有提到，所有的公務部門它的上級機關我們也會跟它保持這樣子一個平台，在政策推進會議裡面，相關的這些議題，在未來個人資料保護會成立的時候，我們也會橫向的來跟他們討論。尤其是剛剛提到的很重要的我們的戶籍法，因為戶籍法是一個已經施行非常久的法，主管機關雖然說對於這個法有一些認識適用，但是講到個人資料的蒐集處理利用，當然還是要謹遵戶籍法的相關規定，選罷法也是一樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我一直搞不懂國民黨到底怎麼了，比如說謝國樑市長，當年還是立委的時候其實還曾代表國民黨去參加個資法修法的協商，那時大家都在立法院搖旗吶喊說要守住個資法，結果卻變成把這個圍牆給拆掉了，還把鑰匙雙手奉上，這是讓人覺得非常不勝唏噓的一個地方。我們也看到其他的，比如新北市就曾經發生消防局人員非法查詢個資系統，然後給殯葬業者，甚至變賣以此來牟利，新竹也是一樣。我們今天審查這個條例，看到這些亂象，我相信今天這不只是一個組織法，也不只是多設一個委員會，而是要建立一道堅實的個資防火牆，俾能真正達到強化個資保護的效能，我們也期待等一下逐條討論時，大家可以集思廣益，讓整部法能夠更完善，然後對國人個資的保護提供更好的、堅實的保護。謝謝！"],["李主任世德：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來我們請最帥氣的羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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是登載不實的但很厲害的事情啊 是什麼很厲害的事情啊 是他登載不實然後呢 他在國科會的個人資料表上面勾選"},{"start":111.394,"end":135.071,"text":"我不同意公開我個人的主要學歷我看了我是瞠目結舌我們的國科會還給人家一個選項說你可以不要公開你的最高學歷今天你不要申請公職你不要申請政府的經費我都沒意見結果連國科會的這個資料都可以讓他選擇不公開下一個問題就來了"},{"start":141.001,"end":154.225,"text":"最高學歷這個是個資沒有問題但問題是因為個資的範圍很廣嘛有法律的授權有正當的理由基本上都要公開我這個認識沒有錯吧個人資料保護法15條你應該很熟啊要不然你怎麼當主任你有看到嗎"},{"start":165.535,"end":182.556,"text":"所以你也要回答我的問題嗎跟委員報告喔這裡面也涉及到一個蠻重要的另一個法律叫做政府資訊公開法沒錯很好政府資訊公開法來我們接下來看政府資訊公開法第18條第一項第六款"},{"start":183.621,"end":207.207,"text":"政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一因限制公開或不提供他說公開或提供有侵害個人的隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權有嗎這個來跟國家申請經費的人他是什麼學歷這個是公開會涉及到他隱私嗎是職業上秘密嗎"},{"start":208.578,"end":220.956,"text":"我多一個好好比啊買拿到哪一個博士學位是羞於其恥還是什麼 一公開的哇 洩漏國家機密洩漏我個人職業上的秘密是這樣嗎來 請教主任"},{"start":224.622,"end":246.557,"text":"因為各自法跟政治法目前兩個在競合適用的時候因為最高行政法院也歷次有做過一些判例是沒錯他們說優先適用政府資訊公開法沒錯那所以呢依照政府資訊公開法按照你作為接下來這個籌備處主任的高度"},{"start":248.779,"end":272.479,"text":"認為申請要他公開他的最高學歷會侵害他的個資嗎我們的個資法是這樣用的嗎但是因為現在政府制定的官方是給持有資料的這個機關是按照這個規定18條第1項就來做決定說有沒有但有公益有必要你覺得有沒有公益的必要但是我們並沒有掌有這個資料應該是由國科會去"},{"start":273.3,"end":299.852,"text":"踢皮球就對了 現在踢給國科會沒有沒有 這我們沒有這個職長 請委員見諒我最後講一件事情就好了啦人家去申請 要公開這個資料他為什麼要申請 他要揭弊啊我明明就知道你造假啊 亂寫啊但是呢 我們的科技部很厲害人家去跟他申請的時候他說 因為涉及到各自法的保護啊"},{"start":300.788,"end":323.508,"text":"所以欠難提供啊 你看 朝偉的臉看得都瞠目結舌啊 難以置信啊我要先取得這個資料 我還知道他造假嘛請我們的科技部幫忙遮醜啊 遮到這樣子的程度啊您作為各支法的主管機關啊 認為科技部這樣濫用各支法 您同意嗎"},{"start":324.403,"end":326.043,"text":"我最後時間到,我只簡單跟主任講一件事"},{"start":342.788,"end":355.321,"text":"法學界很多人各執法是政府公開資訊法的專業領域的專家今天聽到你站在這邊講本來對你很敬重可能會有一些失望好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":327,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（14時2分）謝謝主席。麻煩請個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["黃委員國昌：主任好。我長期觀察我國有關個人資料保護的法制跟落實上，我最沒辦法理解的一個問題是，該好好保護的個資沒有被保護好，常常拿去胡搞瞎搞。有一些是政治人物拿去胡搞瞎搞，有一些是詐團跑去胡搞瞎搞，搞了半天責任都沒有澈底的被追究。這個是為什麼我們在處理相關案件的時候，大家對於目前個人資料保護法的法制，實際上落實的程度有很高的疑問。","但在另外一方面，我觀察到一個更可笑的現象，是個人資料保護法竟然拿來作為違法濫權的遮羞布。我為什麼說個人資料保護法被拿來當成違法濫權的遮羞布？我國派去英國的公使，在自己送交給各個政府單位上面的學歷，不管是取得教授的證書，還是跟國科會申請經費拿納稅人的錢去做研究，學歷是登載不實的。但很厲害的是，他登載不實，然後他在國科會的個人資料表上面勾選，我不同意公開個人的主要學歷，我看了是瞠目結舌，我們的國科會還給人家一個選項是可以不要公開你的最高學歷。今天你不要申請公職，你不要申請政府的經費，我都沒意見。結果連國科會的這個資料都可以讓他選擇不公開，下一個問題就來了，最高學歷這個是個資，沒有問題。但問題是個資的範圍很廣，有法律的授權、有正當的理由，基本上都要公開，我這個認知沒有錯吧？個人資料保護法第十五條你應該很熟啊！要不然你怎麼當主任。你有看到嗎？"],["李主任世德：有，知道。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你有要回答我的問題嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，這裡面也涉及到另外一個滿重要的法律即政府資訊公開法。"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯！很好！政府資訊公開法！政府資訊公開法第十八條第一項規定「政府資訊屬於下列各款情形之一者，應限制公開或不予提供」，其中第六款是「公開或提供有侵害個人隱私、職業上秘密或著作權人之公開發表權者」，有嗎？來跟國家申請經費的人是什麼學歷，這個公開了會涉及到他的隱私嗎？是職業上的秘密嗎？我是哪個學校畢業的、拿到哪個博士學位，是羞於啟齒還是什麼？一旦公開了──哇！洩漏國家機密！洩漏我個人職業上的秘密！是這樣嗎？請教主任。"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，個資法跟政資法兩個法在競合適用的時候，最高行政法院也有做過一些判例，他們說優先適用政府資訊公開法。"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，那所以呢？依照政府資訊公開法，你做為接下來這個籌備處主任的高度，認為要申請人公開他的最高學歷會侵害他的個資嗎？我們的個資法是這樣用的嗎？"],["李主任世德：但是現在政府資訊公開法是給持有資料的機關按照這個法第十八條第一項來決定有沒有「但對公益有必要」。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得有沒有「對公益有必要」？"],["李主任世德：但是我們並沒有掌有這個資料，應該是由國科會去做決定。"],["黃委員國昌：踢皮球就對了，現在踢給國科會。"],["李主任世德：沒有！沒有！我們沒有這個職掌，請委員見諒。"],["黃委員國昌：我最後講一件事情就好了，人家去申請，要公開這個資料，他為什麼要申請？他要揭弊啊！我明明就知道你造假、亂寫啊！但是我們的科技部很厲害，人家去跟他申請的時候，他說因為涉及到個資法的保護，所以「歉難提供」。你看召委的臉，看得都瞠目結舌，難以置信。我要先取得這個資料才知道他造假嘛！結果我們的科技部幫忙遮醜，遮到這樣子的程度！您做為個資法的主管機關，對科技部這樣濫用個資法，您同意嗎？"],["李主任世德：剛剛也跟委員報告過，這邊是回到政府資訊公開法，科技部的函後面也有提它做出的這個是一個處分，所以如果再提起說要申請政府資訊被拒絕的話，按照政府資訊……"],["黃委員國昌：好啦！我的發言時間到了，最後我只簡單跟主任講一件事，法學界很多在個資法、政府資訊公開法這個專業領域的專家，今天聽到你站在這邊講的話，本來對你很敬重的人可能會有一些失望。謝謝！"],["李主任世德：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。這部是組織法，另外提到這些在相關的作用法裡面的部分，其實等一下還可以討論，大家再來集思廣益。現在休息30秒，請蔡易餘委員來做主席。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：不要休息，直接開始啦！","請莊瑞雄召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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剛剛提到了這個最主要就是說 這個理事長委員好這個未來 因為它是三級獨立機關然後這個預算顏額編制顏額 法定的編制顏額而且是公務人員禁用的目前有沒有一個規劃"},{"start":194.537,"end":215.92,"text":"目前我們按照現在當然如果籌備住戶現在在盤點嘛,為了業務發展狀況,那我們那個如果這個委員會的組織法也成立了,然後個資法也通過,那會盤點整個業務狀況,他會預估所需要的原額狀況,我們再合給所以目前還沒有?好,李主任,目前有嗎?"},{"start":217.901,"end":246.206,"text":"因為作用法也還在審所以 人總意思是說要等他作用法到底他顧那個量多少他會再跟我們討論說那個到底完成錯誤為什麼呢主任這是錯誤的你現在就應該有一個規劃預計多少人法這個你後面的後面這一條你都可以寫"},{"start":249.134,"end":277.046,"text":"約聘僱的你就可以寫聘用人員聘用條例的不需要利用資格的你就可以寫多少人法定顏額的你不寫何況何況現在已經在籌編預算了籌編明年的預算了對不對多少顏額多少人多少經費多少預算已經在籌編了8月底就要送到立法院了"},{"start":279.096,"end":298.709,"text":"所以這個部分還是說不想公開講沒有關係但是按照剛才的答覆是這是太慢了如果你說不方便講你就叫不方便講好不好加油好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（13時56分）主席，有請李主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有李次長。兩位好。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：上次在經濟委會我也有質詢過，這個應該要趕快提出來，現在草案送來了，按照111年憲判字第13號判決，三年內，到8月就滿三年了。如果沒有延會，就算今天委員會審查完，也沒有辦法三讀通過。所以還好有延會，這個時間其實要掌握。中央行政機關組織基準法第三條特別規定，獨立機關相關的定義裡面都很清楚，你現在是三級機關，當初是怎麼樣考量要二級機關還是三級機關？當初有評估嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，我們也看了其他國家，尤其是歐盟。我還在國發會的時候曾經問過他們，歐盟的體制目前現階段沒有所謂二級、三級的概念，他們認為說……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以不能參考歐盟，他們跟我們的制度不一樣。"],["李主任世德：他們強調一點，如同剛剛前面看到中央行政組織基準法已經定義了，獨立機關就是獨立行使職權，也是依照法律所賦予的。所以在這個角度裡面，不會因為二、三級而導致行使職權降低。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：在臺灣不一樣，我們當公務員很久了，你在司法機關也待過，所以在臺灣不一樣。這個部分，我個人是認為應該要二級機關，既然這麼重要，而且是憲法判決說要成立的，對不對？現在變成是三級機關，何況涉及個人資料，而這個個人資料外洩的太嚴重了，所以這個部分是需要再好好評估。然後最重要的就是，李次長……"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：未來因為它是三級獨立機關，預算員額、編制員額，法定編制員額，而且是公務人員進用的，目前有沒有規劃？"],["李副人事長秉洲：我們籌備處現在在盤點未來業務發展狀況，如果委員會的組織法也成立了，個資法也通過，會去盤點整個業務狀況，會預估所需要的員額狀況，我們再核給……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以目前還沒有？好。李主任，目前有嗎？"],["李主任世德：因為作用法也還在審，所以……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：跟那個無關。"],["李主任世德：人總的意思是要等作用法估的量多少，它會再跟我們討論委員會的評估員額。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個完全錯誤，為什麼呢？主任，這是錯誤的。你現在就應該要有一個規劃，預計多少人，後面這條依聘用人員聘用條例去聘這些不需要聘用資格的，你就可以寫多少人，而法定員額你不寫！何況現在已經在籌編明年的預算，多少員額、多少經費、多少預算都已經在籌編了，8月底就要送到立法院。還是這個部分不願意說，不想公開講也沒有關係，但是按照剛才的答復，這是太慢了，如果你不方便講就說不方便講，好不好？加油！"],["李主任世德：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員。","我們現在來作有關會議程序的宣告，因為今天聯席人會比較多，我們的發言時間也縮得比較短。其他的委員有可能在其他的委員會，怕他們來不及，我們今天的發言登記時間延長，更正為下午3點截止登記發言。3點的時候，發言登記就截止了，再一次的宣告。","接下來請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","呂玉玲委員、呂玉玲委員、呂玉玲委員不在。","請黃國昌委員。黃國昌委員質詢完以後，麻煩蔡易餘委員來代理一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王義川","陳培瑜","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","李坤城","邱議瑩","邱志偉"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145402_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員王美惠等18人、(三)委員羅廷瑋等18人、(四)委員李坤\n城等16人、(五)委員吳秉叡等18人、(六)委員陳亭妃等16人、(七)委員蔡易餘等17人、(八)委員\n何 欣 純 等 2 2 人及 ( 九 ) 委員 吳 思 瑤 等 1 7 人 分 別 擬具 「 個 人 資 料保 護 委 員會 組 織 法 草 案」 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13:56:28","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2025-05-28T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查（一）行政院函請審議、（二）委員王美惠等18人、（三）委員羅廷瑋等18人、（四）委員李坤城等16人、（五）委員吳秉叡等18人、（六）委員陳亭妃等16人、（七）委員蔡易餘等17人、（八）委員何欣純等22人及（九）委員吳思瑤等17人分別擬具「個人資料保護委員會組織法草案」案。\n【第（八）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（九）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n（星期三下午及星期四全天為一次會））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T13:49:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T13:56:28+08:00","duration":440,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.27096875,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.047218750000001,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.384718750000001,"end":4.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.53221875,"end":6.629093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.130343750000002,"end":60.46034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.78096875000001,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.37159375,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.28909375,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.11534375000001,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.92909375,"end":130.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.31034375000002,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.91346875000002,"end":131.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.26784375,"end":131.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.85409375,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.38471875000002,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.96971875,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.22659375,"end":157.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.42409375,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.17909375000002,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.84471875,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.35909375,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.91596875000002,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.31659375,"end":173.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.48909375000002,"end":173.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.82659375,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.75471875000002,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.01909375000002,"end":187.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.47846875000002,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.81909375,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.11846875,"end":197.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.00846875000002,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.02534375000002,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.04221875000002,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.17221875,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.26471875000001,"end":207.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.54284375,"end":215.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.28846875000002,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.51534375000003,"end":223.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.78534375,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.24909375000001,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.41284375,"end":229.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.51409375,"end":230.37471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.50971875000002,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.35346875000002,"end":231.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.31534375,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.20284375000003,"end":250.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.10909375,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.49221875,"end":264.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.67721875,"end":266.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.43221875,"end":270.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.25034375,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.35159375,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.19534375,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.05159375,"end":274.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.02596875,"end":302.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.99221875,"end":307.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.37534375,"end":308.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.61159375,"end":317.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.78721875,"end":320.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.97659375,"end":322.36034375},{"speaker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裁罰權行政指導跟命令權那還有一個監管的力道跟他在整個職權範圍呢都認為是限縮到很極限所以在這樣的情況之下要請問到目前為止我們的現況有辦法"},{"start":76.454,"end":103.789,"text":"有效能的來執行這個個資保護法嗎請做說明是 跟委員報告就是在作用法那邊的設計本來就是有賦予給就是未來的個人資料保護委員會在他剛好已經有簽署有個六年對非公益機關雖然說會這個逐步回收但是在他自己在行使職權的時候我們第三章之一對公部門 私部門兩邊都有我們的監管的這個法規的規定"},{"start":104.89,"end":130.768,"text":"那所以這部分我們未來個人資料保護法會成立之後會依照就是新修之後的個人資料保護法來做他該有的監督的這樣的一個責任尤其是剛剛有提到說個資法的18條對公務機關的安全維護義務然後非公務機關是我們20條之一那邊有一個兩邊都會有一個這個授權條款要去訂更詳細整個個人資料這個執法非常的重要"},{"start":131.588,"end":146.995,"text":"第18條跟第20條之一但是重點就是在於既然成立我們希望要有效能所以本席在這邊也就是說各自會在得知資料外洩之後發生之後他才需要通知當事人"},{"start":149.168,"end":167.854,"text":"是由公務機關跟備工才通知嘛他已經知道有才通知他嘛但是我們來看看國際的做法國際看到異常登錄或者是交易等他就能夠提前的預警的來通知甚至調查的做法"},{"start":169.015,"end":189.956,"text":"那是措施用這種措施提早那你認為呢就不錯啊 但是因為這部分去各個行業假如今天你在設計你的資料收集處理利用的過程裡面有一個多因子的這種方式你有一個預檢的效果當然是成效會更好啊沒有錯 但是這個不用到修法 這個本來在"},{"start":190.436,"end":193.18,"text":"我們剛才說18條跟20條之一執法會這麼做嗎請教會不會這麼做會不會這麼做 會不會做預警措施會不會這麼做我們會往這方面來前進往這方面來定定之"},{"start":207.62,"end":223.027,"text":"因為我們還要特別強調就是說你如果賦予他有主動調查命令矯正以及暫停處分那這樣子你有實質的監理權限是不是更加的"},{"start":224.572,"end":243.184,"text":"讓人民得到一個保障 也就是能夠真正的來落實這個效能 請說明因為在我們目前的全線的設計第三章之一公部門跟私部門 我們兩邊也都有賦予給它相關剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":243.598,"end":264.176,"text":"那公部門當然是發現的時候我們去調查發覺這個東西不能我們就會做命改正非公務機關那邊也是一樣會有這樣的一個機制同時會去進行那接下來我們再看看GDPR的這個他們的做法他們在監管單位他是有建立一個什麼舉報申訴"},{"start":267.729,"end":296.572,"text":"處理以及跨境合作的機制是請教我們在這方面的功能有吶喊進來嗎是這部分因為本來就內涵在我們最傳統所看到人民陳情的功能裡面就會有含到說有人會來檢舉跟舉報所以那個本來就跨境合作機制跨境合作機制最多就是就是有關於涉及到資料國際傳輸我們有沒有要去進行限制那這裡面會有一些合作機制我們現在國家已經有加入GDPR"},{"start":299.513,"end":321.918,"text":"這個方面我們都有加入跨境合作機制在目前來講是非常非常的重要這一點我們要審慎為之那麼當然為什麼會提問這個呢也就是各自為未來的角色是什麼因為我們往前看重大的各自外洩的事件頻傳我們看到輔仁大學他連膚色醫院他都各自外洩"},{"start":323.55,"end":339.016,"text":"我們也看到包括了健保署、華航、Iron還有成品都有這樣的事件那麼還有一個最嚴肅的一個面向也就2023年的時候那麼有在暗網的論壇裡頭您是販售"},{"start":342.003,"end":360.763,"text":"但是我們全國互證的資料2300萬筆而且他的雷同度非常的高但是到目前為止到目前為止政府只告訴我們什麼只告訴我們說他也不查源頭他只有告訴社會大眾說不是從非來自官方"},{"start":361.741,"end":379.946,"text":"就這樣子就像是一個無頭公案啊告訴我們說不是從哪裡來的非官方來的那我們當然人民要知道啊到底有沒有這回事啊那到底我們的個資有沒有得到保護啊我們都得不到政府告訴我們"},{"start":380.746,"end":408.135,"text":"所以在這種情況之下各自會的角色相對的是非常非常的重要所以我最後還是要強調各自會它是多元跟獨立的但是我也希望也就是能夠讓公民的一個參與他們的聲音務必要加入才能夠真正的我希望達到一個公開透明的這個制度所以我具體建議除了公開透明的制度之外"},{"start":408.835,"end":436.671,"text":"我們是不是應當未來各自成立的時候我們要定期的來發布調查的報告開放會議的記錄甚至有人提建議喔 就剛才我特別講的希望讓公民 讓民間的聲音能夠加入進來才能夠真正的完善了整個的各自保護機制您的看法呢對 我們在第八條版也就設計整個一些開會做成是硬公開的公開透明喔好 謝謝"},{"start":438.113,"end":438.314,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊英委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時49分）謝謝主席，請個資會。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主任好。我想對於公私部門，都應有這樣的應對措施，本席也極力支持務必成立專責機構，推動和執行保護政策跟監管措施。首先要請教，外界很多人在質疑，目前個資會是偏重在諮詢以及政策建議，草案內有提到是掌管違反個人資料保護法案件之處理及處分，但外界有很多的聲音，認為欠缺像是調查權、裁罰權、行政指導跟命令權，還有監管的力道以及整個職權範圍，都認為是限縮到很極限。在這樣情況下，請問目前現況有辦法有效能的執行個資保護法嗎？請做說明。"],["李主任世德：是，跟委員報告，在作用法的設計本來就有賦予未來的個人資料保護委員會，有六年對於非公務機關逐步回收，但在行使職權時，我們第三章之一對公部門、私部門，兩邊都有監管法規的規定。未來個人資料保護委員會成立之後，會依照新修後的個人資料保護法做監督責任。尤其個資法的第十八條對公務機關的安全維護義務，第二十條之一對非公務機關，兩邊都有授權條款訂更詳細的個人資料……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個子法非常重要，第十八條跟第二十條之一。"],["李主任世德：是，這是很重要的兩隻手。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但重點在於，既然成立，我們希望要有效能，個資會在得知資料外洩之後才需要通知當事人。"],["李主任世德：是由公務機關跟非公務機關他們要去通知……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經知道有才通知嘛！但國際的做法是看到異常登入或是交易等，就能提前預警通知，甚至調查。"],["李主任世德：對，那是安全維護義務，是一種措施。鼓勵用這種措施提早預警，我剛剛說的雙因子認證就很好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你認為呢？"],["李主任世德：不錯啊！假如各個行業在設計資料蒐集、處理、利用的過程裡面，有多因子的這種方式，會減少……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有一個預警效果，當然成效會更好啊！"],["李主任世德：是，沒有錯。但這不用修法，在剛才說的第十八條跟第二十條之一……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：子法會這麼做嗎？"],["李主任世德：對，他要去採取安全維護措施……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教會不會這麼做？"],["李主任世德：是，我們會去定子法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會這麼做？會不會做預警措施？"],["李主任世德：我們會把請各個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會這麼做？"],["李主任世德：我們會往這方面來前進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：往這一方面來訂定之。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們還要特別強調，如果賦予主動調查、命令矯正以及暫停處分，有實質的監理權限，是不是更加的讓人民得到保障，也就能夠真正落實這個效能，請說明。"],["李主任世德：是，在我們目前的權限設計第三章之一，公部門跟私部門兩邊都有賦予剛剛委員所提到的相關權限。公部門發現的時候我們會去調查、命令改正，非公務機關也一樣會有這樣的機制同時進行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們看看GDPR的做法，他們在監管單位有建立舉報、申訴、處理以及跨境合作機制，請教我們在這方面有納入這些功能進來嗎？"],["李主任世德：是，這部分本來就包含在我們最傳統所看到人民陳情的功能裡面，所以有人會來檢舉跟舉報，那個本來就依……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跨境合作機制。"],["李主任世德：跨境合作機制就是有關涉及資料國際傳輸，我們有沒有要進行限制，裡面會有一些合作機制，現在我們國家已經加入GDPR、APEC 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我想請一下籌備會的李主任請李主任"},{"start":11.843,"end":35.917,"text":"委員午安午安我在想說因為我們8月11號之前要設立這個個案會就是我在想說這部分的時候那我覺得我們也是站在一個肯定的一個角度來看不過針對這個部分我想特別針對第10條這邊來請教一下因為我們看到想先請教主任我們目前編制的正式編制員額是多少人籌備處"},{"start":39.29,"end":53.708,"text":"籌備處的組織員額八十九然後預算員額現在給我們五十三五十三人嘛 八十九然後五十三 現有四十六因為我們其他就放高考因為在這邊的時候因為第十條這邊的時候我覺得這邊很特殊"},{"start":54.469,"end":77.382,"text":"因為他針對那個各智慧這邊除了正式緣合編制之外還得依聘用人員聘用條例規定聘用個人資料保護數位科技與應用資安資通安全集合人權經濟管理產業政策國際合作等相關領域的人員其實聘用人員不得超過50人已經超過一半以上但我在想說這個部分"},{"start":77.862,"end":97.007,"text":"是不是適合 因為我看了其他的行政院下面的一個三級獨立機關都沒有這樣子的規定 運安會沒有 和安會沒有 不動黨委員會也都沒有這只有我們現在新的委員會當中會有這樣的條例 那你覺得適合嗎"},{"start":100.438,"end":123.439,"text":"跟我們報告就是雖然現有獨立機關那邊沒有這樣子的一個條文但我們另外一次參考了包含說經管會還有那個書發部他們的組織法都有類似的這樣的一個規定所以他這邊就產生很多像書發部之前就會產生很多人事相關的一些問題啊因為在這裡頭你如果說是一個數位安全"},{"start":124.58,"end":149.506,"text":"相關的專業的人士我們還可以理解可是你連人權產業政策國際合作部分這相關的公務人員裡面大家都很厲害那針對這個部分的時候我覺得在這個條例當中的時候第十條大開用人方便的大門的時候我們會擔心以後這個機構的時候會不會產生一些用人不當或者是為私的一個角度所以我們針對這部分我們就要多加的一個限制"},{"start":150.206,"end":179.373,"text":"但是今天時間非常的短所以我這邊也特別再請教一下因為我們看到這整個條例當中的時候基本上只有一個事後究責的一個部分沒有一個事前預警的一個機制在那我們看到了歐盟的一般資料保護規定就是GDPR的部分或者韓國的個資法他們都有提前示警的一個機制在那我們的這個部分我們的個資法當中的時候是不是需要去做一個相關的一個配套的一個修法"},{"start":182.822,"end":201.893,"text":"這部分跟委員報告就是通常在國外這個他不會需要去入房他是把他放在安全維護衣服上面希望說公部門私部門譬如說剛講用資通訊系統你如果資通訊系統最好可能用雙英子的認證的方式假如今天有人拿到你的帳密然後要登錄進去他可能就會先給你一個"},{"start":202.753,"end":225.724,"text":"另外一個簡訊通知說現在有人登入你的帳名那他就會立刻提醒所以那個不用到去說吧那個部分當然都是用安全維護義務去push機關多採用一些好的一些措施因為你之前你有提到說要針對那個GDPR的部分去做一些參考那我們也希望這些預警的機制要把它加強進去因為否則到時候碰到事情發生之後要來補救都很難"},{"start":226.684,"end":236.719,"text":"那我另外一個部分是針對我們相關新的委員會當中的時候對於政黨人士的一個比例目前是要求二分之一是不是能夠把他下修到三分之一你覺得適不適合"},{"start":238.774,"end":265.119,"text":"這個部分因為我們現在看到現有的獨立機關大部分都是二分之一啦NCC公平會還有運安會跟河安我們是先比照尤其是運安跟中選會三分之一啦那我在想說這就是一個考量的狀態那時間的問題我在說我特別提出來的需要說我們特別去考量最後一個部分因為我們現在算第一階段那到時候我先"},{"start":266.479,"end":279.405,"text":"舉個個案喔因為台興銀行最近被金管會罰了六百萬就是因為他們個資外洩那我想說在這樣的案子當中的時候我們的個資會有沒有角色可不可以請主任說明一下"},{"start":281.189,"end":309.729,"text":"未來的個人資料保護委員會成立的話我看說我們會有個六年的分管或回收的機制有明確目的時間的話會同時會共管但是等到六年之後回收的話全部都會有個人資料保護委員會六年之後再全部都是各自會管對不對這六年當中就還在一個過渡的狀態那這六年當中我們老百姓的權益怎麼辦因為針對台信銀行這個案子的時候很多人反應就說他已經各自外洩了四年啊是"},{"start":310.069,"end":339.018,"text":"一千多個人受到權益上的損害罰六百萬那有人覺得第一個是處理得太慢第二個狀態的時候就說相較起來他個資外資的成本也不太高啊所以針對這個部分就是罰則的部分我們也希望說個資會這邊能夠盡快扮演起這樣的角色因為目前除了政府部門跟人民的個資有很大的關係之外另外就是金融機構跟醫院都跟"},{"start":339.418,"end":362.852,"text":"每一個老百姓的個資有很大的一個關係所以我們希望這兩個領域當中的時候不要拖到六年因為這六年當中我們不曉得還有多少人的個資會受到侵害權益會遭殃好不好我們希望這部分能夠把最優先的部分把它接軌起來這六年我們還是會跟他有個協調聯繫的我們有個政策推進會他們要加入所以我們會去了解他們的情況OK 好 謝謝謝謝鄭 鄭 錢 鄭委員接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（13時43分）謝謝主席，我想請籌備會的李主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["鄭委員正鈐：午安。因為8月11日之前要設立個安會，今天的修法我們也是站在肯定的角度來看。不過我想特別針對第十條來請教一下，先請教主任，我們目前正式的編制員額是多少人？"],["李主任世德：籌備處的組織員額89人，預算員額現在給我們53人，現有人數……"],["鄭委員正鈐：53人，89然後53，現有……"],["李主任世德：現有46人，因為我們其他就放給高考。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。我覺得第十條很特殊，因為個資會除了正式員額編制之外，還「得依聘用人員聘用條例之規定，聘用個人資料保護、數位科技與應用、資通安全、稽核、人權、經濟、管理、產業政策、國際合作等相關領域專業人員，其聘用員額不得超過五十人」，已經超過一半以上喔。但我在想這個部分是不是適合？因為我看其他行政院下面的三級獨立機關都沒有這樣的規定，運安會沒有，核安會沒有，不當黨產處理委員會也都沒有，就只有現在這個新的委員會有這樣的條例，那你覺得適合嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，雖然現有獨立機關沒有這樣的條文，我們另外是參考包含金管會還有數發部，他們的組織法都有類似這樣的規定，所以我們就定了上限。"],["鄭委員正鈐：像數發部之前就產生很多人事相關的問題啊，因為在這裡，如果是數位安全相關的專業人士，我們還可以理解，可是你連人權、產業政策、國際合作都有，但相關的公務人員對這個部分大家都很厲害啊。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這個部分，我覺得在這個條例中，第十條大開用人的大門時，我們會擔心這個機構以後會不會產生用人不當，或者是唯私的一個角度，所以針對這部分，我們覺得要多加限制。","今天發言時間非常短，我也特別再請教一下，因為我們看到整個條例基本上只有事後究責的部分，沒有事前預警的機制。我們看到歐盟的一般資料保護規則，就是GDPR的部分，或者韓國的個資法，他們都有提前示警的機制。那我們的個資法是不是也需要做相關的配套修法？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，通常在國外這個不需要入法，是把它放在安全維護義務上面，希望公私部門，譬如剛剛講用資通訊系統，如果是資通訊系統，最好用雙因子認證方式。假如今天有人拿到你的帳密要登入進去，它就會先另外一個簡訊通知，現在有人登入你的帳密，就會立刻提醒。所以不用去修法，那個部分大部分都是用安全維護義務，去push機關多採用一些好的措施。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你之前提到針對GDPR的部分去做參考，我們也希望這些預警機制要把它加強進去，否則到時候碰到事情發生，要來補救都很難。","另一部分是針對我們新的委員會當中，政黨人士的比例，目前是要求二分之一，是不是能夠把它下修到三分之一，你覺得適不適合？"],["李主任世德：我們看到現有的獨立機關，大部分都是二分之一，像NCC、公平會、運安會、核安會，我們是先比照尤其是運安跟核安會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：中選會是三分之一啦！"],["李主任世德：對，中選會比較特別。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想說這就是要考量的狀態，我特別提出來，希望我們特別去考量。","最後一個部分，因為現在算第一階段，我舉個個案：台新銀行最近被金管會罰了600萬，因為他們個資外洩。在這樣的案子當中，我們的個資會有沒有角色？可不可以請主任說明一下。"],["李主任世德：未來個人資料保護委員會成立的話，我們會有六年的分管回收機制，有明確目的事業主關機關的，會同時共管，但等到六年之後，全部回收由個人資料保護委員會監管。"],["鄭委員正鈐：六年之後再全部都是個資會管理，六年當中就還在過渡狀態。"],["李主任世德：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那這六年當中，我們老百姓的權益怎麼辦？因為針對台新銀行這個案子，很多人反映個資已經外洩四年，一千多人受到權益上的損害，結果只罰600萬。有人覺得第一個是處理太慢，第二個是相較起來，個資外洩的成本也不太高。所以針對罰則部分，我們希望個資會能夠盡快扮演這樣的角色。目前除了政府部門跟人民的個資有很大關係之外，另外金融機構跟醫院，都跟每個老百姓的個資有很大關係。所以我們希望這兩個領域不要拖到六年，因為這六年當中，不曉得還有多少人的個資會受到侵害，權益會遭殃，好不好？希望這部分能優先把它接軌起來。"],["李主任世德：這六年我們會跟他們有協調聯繫，我們有政策推進會，他們需要加入，所以會去了解他們的情況。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！好，謝謝。"],["李主任世德：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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13:42:46","影片長度":"00:06:47","會議時間":"2025-05-28T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查（一）行政院函請審議、（二）委員王美惠等18人、（三）委員羅廷瑋等18人、（四）委員李坤城等16人、（五）委員吳秉叡等18人、（六）委員陳亭妃等16人、（七）委員蔡易餘等17人、（八）委員何欣純等22人及（九）委員吳思瑤等17人分別擬具「個人資料保護委員會組織法草案」案。\n【第（八）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（九）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n（星期三下午及星期四全天為一次會））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T13:35:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T13:42:46+08:00","duration":407,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":2.5959687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.27034375,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.037218750000001,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.15471875,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":19.133468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.15034375,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.26784375,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.68346875,"end":109.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.71846875000001,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.60596875,"end":173.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.06284375,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.46721875,"end":192.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.97971875000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.80971875,"end":206.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.02409375000002,"end":207.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.77909375000002,"end":218.56221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.76471875000001,"end":220.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.95846875,"end":283.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.58659375000002,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.00346875000002,"end":230.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.94846875000002,"end":232.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.68784375,"end":252.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.79159375,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.91909375,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.56034375,"end":284.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.57721875000004,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.33659375,"end":285.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.57534375,"end":368.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.86784375,"end":376.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.90909375,"end":380.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.24221875,"end":377.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.52846875,"end":406.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.36409375000005,"end":407.96721875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.852,"end":3.074,"text":"生日快樂今天不是韓院長的生日快樂是莊昭偉的生日快樂謝謝大家都快樂謝謝有請主任請李主任委員快樂"},{"start":20.721,"end":46.601,"text":"希望今天的审查会是一个好的结果让我们来接轨国际法制面当然作用法是重要的经济委员会正在审但是组织面就是今天的这个独立机关能够来获得委员会的合格我想这都同等重要下页当然这个是恢复宪法保障的基本权利而且我一再的强调接轨国际好我想朝野的委员都会支持下页"},{"start":47.381,"end":61.969,"text":"那作用法經濟委員會正在審查我等一下問的問題其實很多其實跟作用法會比較有關係但我倒是想要看看我們的主委的一些理念上的分享是不是能夠給我們多一點的意見的回饋 下一頁"},{"start":63.93,"end":89.3,"text":"現在發生了很多的個案當然從花蓮市政府基隆市政府到南投選委會都發生了濫用公務體系的互證系統去侵害個資好那政黨政治各方面的政治上的操作我都不再提而是我在說確實公部門極有可能因為他掌有國家最大的"},{"start":90.681,"end":113.699,"text":"公权力所授权的个人资料所以我们更彰显我们需要一个独立专业中立的机关否则现在如果以眼前台湾正在发生的个人资料的保护恐怕就是罢免案的资料外泄这更可以凸显我们需要一个独立的"},{"start":115.065,"end":126.566,"text":"專業的中立的機關否則像現在花蓮基隆南投發生的事情除了當事人去提起法律上的權利的捍衛之外我們幾乎沒有什麼樣子的"},{"start":127.779,"end":145.891,"text":"行政上的力量可以來阻卻或者是來懲處對不對下一頁同樣的在中央部門教育部最近也發生了是不是教育部的葉秉成次長涉及不當的去洩露學生的個資他現在自請暫時"},{"start":148.612,"end":172.607,"text":"請假等候調查我也用這個例子來彰顯不管中央的公務部門或是地方的公務部門當發生了公權力部門公部門對於公民的個人資料外洩的時候我們就需要一個獨立的組織來做一個公正的一個處理所以這是我們為什麼需要趕快來讓這個委員會上路哦夏業"},{"start":174.096,"end":198.638,"text":"但我的幾個問題當然第一個大問題是一個大災問我們很多的人權單位都希望說長城而言希望是二級機關而不是三級機關就您個人撇開等一下要審的條例啦您認為三級機關就足夠嗎如果邁向二級機關二級機關應當是一個更強而有力對於各自的保護是不是"},{"start":200.836,"end":217.415,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前當機關的仇社一來當然也是要尊重人手目前現在的組織我知道但是現在有困難嘛是然後二來就是確實我們在整個研究跟了解國外國內當然也沒有說要把那個說整個機關組織層級要用最高規格的"},{"start":221.021,"end":243.67,"text":"那我們以前我還在國安會的時候也有跟歐盟司法總署我們有先做過錯談他們給我們一個觀念因為他們不太理解我們台灣怎麼會去分二級跟三級對他們而言就是獨立行使法定職權你就是可以去監督你的監督對象那其他的機關是按照法律受監督的嘛所以這部分我記得當時候歐盟司法總署有給我們一個建議他說"},{"start":245.151,"end":263.113,"text":"不管你們國家是最後要用二級三級重點是在於你們現有的那個職長可以去對於說作用法可以去落實所以假如以這樣來看的話我們目前現在其實先看說因為各司法有一個蠻特別的它是一個單一法令很完整的其實它就推展一個很重要的觀念就是"},{"start":263.553,"end":281.941,"text":"個人資料保護的一個制度我們俗稱PrincipalPersonal InformationManagement System能夠落入不管公部門、私部門的整個業務跟職務推展的過程那以這個整個觀念如果能夠落實進去我們剛剛在討論說包含說外洩這些情況它就很明顯開始會被"},{"start":283.823,"end":300.961,"text":"您說的我都同意因為時間到了我認為先求有再求好長程而言如果可以因為因應現在的數位經濟發展數位科技的發展可能更有我認為Maybe someday二級機關是一個可行的方向但現在馬上就要審"},{"start":302.463,"end":315.874,"text":"先求有再求好我可以接受三級機關但是下一頁跟作用法我有兩個問題跟作用法比較相關啦齁您剛才講歐盟給我們很多經驗分享GDPR所規範的其實有兩個部分第一個對於現實通報"},{"start":320.057,"end":331.481,"text":"我們現在如果在個資法修法限時通報只有寫限時然後由主管機關定之但是如果以歐洲歐盟的標準是一旦發生侵害個資的事件當事人可以提請72小時向經理機關通報第一個有明確的是72小時"},{"start":335.703,"end":351.374,"text":"第二個在違規罰則的部分不管對公部門或私部門歐盟是罰得非常重的非常非常重的一千萬歐元以上或者是兩千萬歐元以上或者是企業年收入的百分之二或百分之四這當然對於私部門但是我們現在各自法的修法裡頭對於非公務機關才有罰還但是公務機關只有相關公務人員的懲戒"},{"start":359.519,"end":367.905,"text":"這兩個部分現實通報的期限跟違規法則的提升補強您是不是認同我們可以再精進未來再修作用法的時候"},{"start":369.022,"end":393.945,"text":"這一部分的話我們作用法我們也會就是要啟動第二階段的那個修法一樣先求有再求好我最後一個問題就是回到今天的審的我也非常認同剛剛審法會委員說的不管是我們現在是和安會也好這未來的各資會其實運安會9到11人我認為相對是合宜的一個委員的組成"},{"start":395.006,"end":402.819,"text":"五到七在領域的曲線或者是這個extend這個部分我都認為九到十一也許是一個比較好的選擇我們稍後再一起逐條時候討論好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":208,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（13時36分）今天不是韓院長的生日快樂，是莊召委的生日快樂，謝謝，大家都快樂，謝謝。","有請主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員快樂。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝。希望今天的審查會是一個好結果，讓我們來接軌國際。"],["李主任世德：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：法制面，當然作用法是重要的，經濟委員會正在審，但是組織面，就是今天這個獨立機關能夠來獲得委員會的核可，我想這都同等重要。當然這是恢復憲法保障的基本權利，而且我一再的強調接軌國際，我想朝野的委員都會支持。經濟委員會正在審查作用法，我等一下問的問題其實很多跟作用法會比較有關係，但我倒是想要看看主委一些理念的分享，是不是能夠給我們多一點的意見回饋。","現在發生很多個案，從花蓮市政府、基隆市政府到南投選委會，都發生了濫用公務體系的戶政系統去侵害個資，政黨政治各方面政治上的操作，我都不再提，而是我在說確實公部門極有可能因為它掌有國家最大的公權力所授權的個人資料，所以更彰顯我們需要一個獨立、專業、中立的機關，否則如果以眼前臺灣正在發生的個人資料保護恐怕就是罷免案的資料外洩，這更可以凸顯我們需要一個獨立的、專業的、中立的機關，否則像現在花蓮、基隆、南投發生的事情，除了當事人提起法律上權利的捍衛之外，我們幾乎沒有什麼行政上的力量可以來阻卻，或者是來懲處，對不對？","同樣的，中央部門教育部最近也發生教育部葉丙成次長是不是涉及不當的洩漏學生的個資，他現在是暫時請假，等候調查。我也用這個例子來彰顯，不管中央的公務部門或是地方的公務部門，當發生了公權力部門、公部門對公民個人資料外洩的時候，我們就需要一個獨立的組織來做公正的處理，所以這是我們為什麼需要趕快讓這個委員會上路。","但我的幾個問題，第一個大問題是一個大哉問，長程而言，很多人權單位都希望是二級機關，而不是三級機關，撇開等一下要審的條例，你個人認為三級機關就足夠嗎？如果邁向二級機關，二級機關對於個資的保護應當是更強而有力，是不是？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，目前機關的籌設，一來當然也要尊重人總目前的組織改造，……"],["吳委員思瑤：我知道，但是現在有困難嘛。"],["李主任世德：二來就是確實我們在整個研究跟瞭解國外，國外當然也沒有要把整個機關的組織層級要用最高規格。以前我還在國發會的時候，我們有跟歐盟司法總署作過座談，他們給我們一個觀念，因為他們不太理解臺灣怎麼會去分二級跟三級，對他們而言，就是獨立行使法定職權……"],["吳委員思瑤：就是一個獨立機關。"],["李主任世德：你就是可以去監督你的監督對象。其他的機關是按照法律受監督的，這部分我記得當時歐盟司法總署有給我們建議，不管你們國家最後要用二級或三級，重點是在於你們現有的職掌，作用法可以落實。"],["吳委員思瑤：明確，好。"],["李主任世德：所以假如以這樣來看的話，我們目前先看，因為個資法蠻特別的，它是一個單一法令。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["李主任世德：很完整的，其實它就是推展一個很重要的觀念，就是個人資料保護的制度，我們俗稱所謂的PIMS（Personal Information Management System），能夠落入不管公部門、私部門的整個業務跟職務推展的過程。這個觀念如果能夠落實，我們剛剛討論的包含外洩這些情況，就很明顯地開始會被控制住。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，您說的我都同意，因為時間到了，我認為先求有再求好。長程而言，如果可以因應現在的數位經濟發展、數位科技的發展，我認為maybe someday二級機關是一個可行的方向，但現在馬上就要審，先求有再求好，我可以接受三級機關。","但是我有兩個問題，跟作用法比較相關，您剛才講歐盟給我們很多經驗分享，GDPR所規範的其實有兩個部分，第一個是限時通報，我們現在個資法修法，限時通報只有寫「限時」，然後由主管機關定之。但是如果以歐盟的標準，是一旦發生侵害個資的事件，當事人可以在72小時內向監理機關通報，第一個有明確的是72小時。第二個在違規罰則的部分，不管對公部門或私部門，歐盟是罰得非常重的，非常非常重，1,000萬歐元以上或者是2,000萬歐元以上或是企業年收入的2%或4%，這當然是對於私部門。但是我們現在個資法的修法，對於非公務機關才有罰鍰，但是公務機關只有相關公務人員的懲戒。這兩部分，限時通報的期限跟違規罰則的提升補強，您是不是認同未來在修作用法的時候可以再精進？"],["李主任世德：這部分，作用法我們也會啟動第二階段的修法，尤其是個人……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，一樣，先求有再求好。"],["李主任世德：先求有再求好。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我最後一個問題，回到今天的審查，我也非常認同剛才沈發惠委員說的，不管現在是核安會也好，未來的個資會、運安會，9到11人我認為是相對合宜的委員組成，5到7人在領域的侷限或者是extend？這個部分我都認為9到11人也許是一個比較好的選擇，我們稍後再一起逐條的時候討論，謝謝。"],["李主任世德：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員的質詢。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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不超過"},{"start":311.15,"end":332.278,"text":"該機關總預算人數百分之五為原則欸百分之五欸你們這個五十人齁我瞭解有一些立法律是有那個原額的上限好你們這個用五十人做上限齁但是你們你們這個跟百分之五為原則這個百分之五差太遠了啦差太遠了是好這個部分我想等一下我們在這個逐條的時候我們再來來談好再跟委員就講好謝謝審發會委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":162,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（13時30分）主席，請李主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["沈委員發惠：李主任，因為今天只有4分鐘，本來有一些問題，我想要再精簡。","個人資料保護委員會最主要是為因應111年憲判字第13號認為個人資料保護法沒有獨立監督機制，沒有建立相關法制，所以要求在宣示三年內成立，正好是今年的8月11日，宣示是111年8月12日，所以在今年8月11日之前理論上是要掛牌，對不對？"],["李主任世德：我們朝這個方向前進。"],["沈委員發惠：好，朝這個方向努力，也要看今天會不會順利通過。","我特別也關心一個部分，剛剛前面也有委員提到。這個個人資料保護委員會目前按照草案的第一條，是相當中央三級獨立機關。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["沈委員發惠：中央三級獨立機關，目前有的像核安會、運安會，也是三級獨立機關。","我看草案的第三條，剛才有委員特別關心，我事實上也是特別關心這個部分。草案的第三條第一項規定，「本會置委員五人到七人」，更重要的是在第二項，第二項有「主任委員、副主任委員及專任委員由行政院長任命，其餘委員由行政院院長就有關機關人員或學者、專家分別聘（派）兼之」。主任，有關機關是什麼意思？哪一些機關是有關機關，哪一些機關是無關機關呢？"],["李主任世德：目前這個體制，在其他的三級獨立機關也有這樣的用語，我們目前……"],["沈委員發惠：有關機關好像沒有吧？"],["李主任世德：有。"],["沈委員發惠：有關機關？"],["李主任世德：對。"],["沈委員發惠：那有關個資的部分，你現在可以舉出哪個例子是無關機關嗎？"],["李主任世德：這個文字的意思是院長可以針對比如說今天需要科技的部分，需要數發部有一個人來擔任，那可能就會變成這邊所謂的有關機關，不過目前這部分只是一個選擇上面比較寬泛。"],["沈委員發惠：好，時間的關係。","再來就是委員只設5到7人，但是按照第三條第四項規定的本會委員應具有相關學識及經驗，就包括個人資料保護、法律、資訊、科技、資通安全、人權、公共行政、經濟、商業、管理、消費者保護，光是列出來的領域就有11個領域，但是你們只設5到7人，所以不管你們怎麼聘，除非你可以聘到一個人，他一個人就有四、五種專長，不然你只設5到7人，連你們自己所說要涵蓋的領域都做不到啊！你們自己那些領域就包含11個領域，但是委員只設5到7人。"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，……"],["沈委員發惠：這是第一個啦。","第二個，來看法制的規定，按照行政院暨所屬各級機關聘用人員注意事項，我看其他委員會都有5到11人，其實按照法令，你們也是可以設置5到11人，三級的獨立機關可以設5到11人，你們為什麼在草案中特別把委員限縮為5到7人？這部分是我個人有疑慮的。等一下希望在逐條的時候，你能夠回答這個問題。因為只有5到7人，再加上1個主委、1個副主委，主委、副主委以外，再有1個委員出席，3個人就可以開會了。3個人開會，裡面2個人同意就可以通過了。這個我個人是有疑慮啦。"],["李主任世德：等一下逐條的時候可以再說明。"],["沈委員發惠：最後不好意思，再占用一點時間。你們未來預計的編制人員是多少？"],["李主任世德：目前這部分還在跟人總討論。"],["沈委員發惠：你們有沒有預計？"],["李主任世德：目前還沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：你們現在有多少人？目前籌備會……"],["李主任世德：目前籌備處的組織員額是89人。"],["沈委員發惠：89人。"],["李主任世德：我們的預算員額現在是53人，現有人數是46人。"],["沈委員發惠：現有人數46。"],["李主任世德：對。"],["沈委員發惠：但是草案第十條，你們剛剛就講約聘人員以不超過50人。"],["李主任世德：不超過50人。"],["沈委員發惠：不超過50人，也就是說你們現在可以全約聘吔！如果以你們現在的規模46人，還不到50人，全部通通約聘，沒有半個公務人員，也符合這一條捏。"],["李主任世德：當然我們現在籌備處……"],["沈委員發惠：你們以50人為上限，我看在現在所有機關組織條例中，幾乎是我沒看過的。按照行政院暨所屬各級機關聘用人員注意事項，「其員額以不超過該機關預算總人數百分之五為原則」，5%吔！你們這個50人喔……"],["李主任世德：我了解，有一些立法例是有員額的上限。"],["沈委員發惠：你們以50人做上限，但是這個跟以5%為原則，差太遠了！差太遠了！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分，我想等一下在逐條的時候我們再來探討。"],["李主任世德：是，再跟委員就教。"],["主席：好，謝謝沈發惠委員，差不多聚焦的問題越來越集中了。","接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢。生日快樂！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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委員午安好 午安好"},{"start":35.513,"end":45.192,"text":"好 謝謝那我們先請到李主任你們今天的報告有提出來就是說你們是相當於三個獨立的三級的獨立機關那我想請問一下"},{"start":46.658,"end":67.475,"text":"草案我看到了草案第三條說到就是採合議制就是委員總共五到七人可是呢主委副主委專委兩人都是院長指派那這樣變成是五分之四還是六分之四還是七分之四還有一半都是院長指派的人那這樣子要怎麼樣獨立我想請教主委 欸主任"},{"start":68.763,"end":80.85,"text":"好跟委員報告就是目前現階段他是依照我們組織法所任命之後然後獨立去好那我就所以我跟你講第一個我的疑問就是"},{"start":81.909,"end":107.416,"text":"你裡面四個人是院長指派那你的委員才五到七人你等於是過半都是院長指派但是你只要過半就可以開罰那這樣子的合議制還有意義嗎因為都是執行院長的意見啊主任是跟委員報告就是目前當然現階段整個獨立機關的這樣的一個設置在河安跟"},{"start":108.069,"end":119.644,"text":"我們的運輸安全也是有這樣的一個設置其實我們目前先用河岸會的那個設計只是做我們參考的那你這樣等於我還是聽的搞不清楚但你還是沒有講到我的答案"},{"start":120.891,"end":148.817,"text":"因為我的題目啦就說有一半的人都是院長指派的人啦那這個要怎麼樣讓他能夠行政獨立這是我第一個意見那尤其是我認為目前我國的NCC還有中選會其實爭議都蠻多的那今天我們要讓你成立一個新的那個委員會但是在裡面成員的指派又都是院長可以指派超過半數的人那他要怎麼樣獨立這是我第一個問題那你剛剛說你們是接近哪個獨立機關"},{"start":151.139,"end":170.99,"text":"目前因為三級機關我們也參考了核安會跟我們的運安會那因為本身組織法也去也有強調這一點他必須要本於他自己的一個依照法律要獨立行使職權我就說嘛我就還是回到最基本問題你一直告訴我你是獨立行使"},{"start":172.33,"end":200.119,"text":"職權的機關但是我看到的是過半不管你採五到七人的哪一個人數過半都是院長所指定的人這就是我的問題那我再請教一下你們說我分三個區塊第一個區塊是公務機關優先各自全面監管第二個是非公務機關那第三個是目的事業主管機關的非公務機關那我想請教第一個公務機關的部分那如果以後法院他的裁判書裡面如果有"},{"start":200.839,"end":224.697,"text":"那個不小心揭露一些 或是故意揭露一些合一性侵等等的個資呢 你們要怎麼裁法你要對法官開法嗎 還是對機關開法那部分有關於法院 因為本身在憲法就已經有保障說那個法院在行使他的那個審判的話是獨立行使所以那部分的話還是要按照現行的規定所以法院如果違反你們就無從處理嗎"},{"start":225.718,"end":253.721,"text":"因為這個在國外包含在歐盟他們也是直接有規定獨立專人機關不可以去涉入那個審判當然沒關係我想說意思就是沒有辦法處理好那這是答案然後再來我請問我剛剛講第三個那如果是中華電信然後那個它是NCC管以後歸你們管還有銀行的各支這些本來是金管會管現在改成歸你們管嗎那我想請教一下那像這樣子的話那以後你們的人力足夠嗎"},{"start":255.712,"end":275.088,"text":"跟委員報告目前現在我們先設計未來在作用法部分設計一個六年的條款會分階段兩年兩年回收然後同時再去評估我們現有的人力這個部分還要再跟人工因為這個量很大很驚人我在這邊先跟你說明一下是是是謝謝委員這量很大到底你有沒有辦法吃得下來是你們第一個要考量的問題謝謝委員"},{"start":275.708,"end":284.802,"text":"然後再來就是說我看到你們說歸管的過渡期可是草案都沒有提到耶那這樣子的話那像我剛剛講到中華電信各家銀行有違反個資的問題"},{"start":287.165,"end":306.247,"text":"那個裁罰的權責機關是誰?訴願的機關又是誰?你可以跟我講嗎?好 跟委員報告目前現在在作用法第51條之一是規定在分管的時間的時候還是由原分管的中央目的層面來進行裁罰但是他裁罰做了處分的話他的訴願不會再往其他地方跑是直接到我們這邊"},{"start":307.328,"end":326.861,"text":"那還蠻特別的耶 這跟溯源法的規定不一樣所以你們用特別規定來處理對 直接到我們這邊來所以我們是用這個那這個要宣導明確喔因為人民對於溯源的程序他的理解會原本溯源法的規範作用法有明確規定那再來喔 最後我請教一個問題因為我看到你們啊"},{"start":327.742,"end":356.838,"text":"草案的第10條又要大量聘用約聘人員50人啊那我想說哇 又是約聘因為其實我很擔心 我覺得國家怎麼走到最後都是約聘因為約聘它就不是經由正常的公務員文官任用的方式不是一般那種考試進來的嘛那約聘到最後會不會又變成是酬庸性質這是我們立法委員應該要監督的部分那我想請問一下主任這麼大量的約聘人數 那以後會不會又變成是酬庸呢"},{"start":358.127,"end":385.01,"text":"跟委員報告 不會啦 因為我們上限是控制在50人齊二就是因為目前現在因為監管的事業多元化尤其還涉及到很多AI新的科技的發展還有對於說集合有些可能這些實務界我們公部門都找不到這種專業的人士剛好又是做公務員所以我們還是有這樣的一個需求好 沒有 我就說我的意見還是這個啦 約聘會不會變成酬庸 我想不管是哪一個政黨 只要立委"},{"start":385.45,"end":404.49,"text":"都會在意這件事情你們那個監督議員化我不是說完全反對但監督議員化就會變成是事權的變成統一了那事權統一之後又會發生另外一個問題就是將來我們每個人都會擔心的就是會不會把這個委員會變成是整數一級用"},{"start":405.091,"end":426.456,"text":"不要說整數不同黨啦同黨裡面我看也是殺到瘋了啦最近有一些政黨內部不同派系也是殺到瘋了會不會變成是主導的派系去殺他不喜歡的派系我不知道啦我也沒有說哪一個政黨啦會不會變成這樣這就是我認為監督議員化可能產生的副作用主任"},{"start":427.785,"end":442.238,"text":"我相信你會有你的說法啦那我在這邊就是跟主任說明一下這個東西千萬不要發生好嗎就是一個委員會的成立是要保護國人不是拿來做政治鬥爭的好不好好謝謝我們吳宗憲委員的詢談"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":88,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（13時17分）謝謝，請個資會李主任及主計總處廖專委。"],["主席：請李主任及廖專委。"],["李主任世德：委員午安。"],["吳委員宗憲：午安。首先請教李主任，今天的報告提到你們相當於三級獨立機關，我想請問一下，我看到草案第三條說到採合議制，委員總共五到七人，可是主委、副主委、專委兩人都是院長指派，這樣變成可能五分之四、六分之四或七分之四，有一半都是院長指派的人，這樣子要怎麼樣獨立？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，現階段是依照組織法任命之後，然後獨立去……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講我的第一個疑問是這裡面有四個人是院長指派，委員總共才五到七人，等於過半都是院長指派，但是只要過半就可以開罰，這樣子的合議制還有意義嗎？因為都是執行院長的意見啊！"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，就現階段整個獨立機關這樣的設置而言，在核安及運輸安全方面也是有這樣的設置體制，我們目前先用核安會的設計去做我們參考的一部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：你這樣回答我還是搞不清楚，你還是沒有講到我想要的答案，我的題目是說，有一半都是院長指派的人，這樣要怎麼讓它能夠行政獨立？這是我的第一個意見。尤其我認為目前我國的NCC及中選會爭議都蠻多的，今天我們又要讓你成立一個新的委員會，但是其中的成員卻是院長可以指派超過半數的人，如此一來，它要怎麼樣獨立？這是我的第一個問題。你剛剛說你們是借鏡哪個獨立機關？"],["李主任世德：目前因為是三級機關，我們也參考了核安會及運安會，其實組織法本身也有強調這一點，它必須依照法律獨立行使職權。"],["吳委員宗憲：我還是回到最基本的問題，你一直告訴我，你們是獨立行使職權的機關，但是我看到的是過半……不管你是採五到七人的哪一個人數，過半都是院長所指定的人，這就是我的問題。","我再請教一下，你們總共區分三個區塊：第一個區塊是公務機關優先個資全面監管，第二個是非公務機關，第三個是有明確目的事業主管機關的非公務機關。我想請教第一個有關公務機關的部分，如果以後法院的裁判書裡面不小心揭露或者故意揭露一些合意性侵等等的個資，你們要怎麼裁罰？你要對法官開罰嗎？還是對機關開罰？"],["李主任世德：有關於法院的部分，因為憲法已經有保障法院的審判是獨立行使，所以那部分還是要按照現行的規定，我們不能介入法院的……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以法院如果違反，你們就無從處理嗎？"],["李主任世德：因為在國外包含歐盟等國家，他們也是直接規定獨立專責機關不可以涉入審判，我們不用寫，原則上也是如此。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我想這個意思就是沒有辦法處理，這就是答案。再來，我請問剛剛講的第三個區塊，如果是中華電信，它現在是歸NCC管，以後歸你們管；還有銀行的個資本來是歸金管會管，現在改成歸你們管。我想請教一下，像這樣子的話，以後你們的人力足夠嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，就我們目前的設計，未來在作用法的部分設計一個六年的條款，會分階段每兩年回收，同時再去評估我們現有的人力，這個部分還要再跟人總協調。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這個量很大、很驚人，我在這邊先跟你說明一下。"],["李主任世德：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個量很大，你們到底有沒有辦法吃得下來，這是你們第一個要考量的問題。"],["李主任世德：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，我看到你們有說規管的過渡期，可是草案都沒有提到，像我剛剛講到中華電信或各家銀行有違反個資的問題，裁罰的權責機關是誰？訴願的機關又是誰？你可以跟我講嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，目前作用法第五十一條之一是規定在分管的時候，還是由原分管的中央目的事業主管機關來進行裁罰，但是對於裁罰所作的處分，它的訴願不會再往其他地方跑，而是直接到我們這邊，由我們……"],["吳委員宗憲：那還蠻特別的，這跟訴願法的規定不一樣。"],["李主任世德：對，我們有特別規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們用特別規定來處理？"],["李主任世德：對，直接到我們這邊來，所以我們是用這個來控制它。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個要宣導明確，因為人民對於訴願程序的理解會是原本訴願法的規範。"],["李主任世德：對，作用法有明確規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後我請教一個問題，因為我看到草案第十條規定要大量聘用約聘人員五十人，我心想：哇，又是約聘！其實我很擔心，我覺得國家怎麼走到最後都是約聘？因為約聘並不是經由正常文官任用的方式，不是藉由一般考試進來的，約聘到最後會不會又變成酬庸性質？這是我們立法委員應該要監督的部分。我想請問主任，這麼大量的約聘人數，以後會不會又變成酬庸呢？"],["李主任世德：不會啦！因為我們上限是控制在五十人。其二是因為現在監管越來越多元化，尤其還涉及到很多AI新的科技發展，還有有些稽核的實務案件在公部門都找不到這種專業的人士剛好又是做公務員的，所以我們還是有這樣的需求，請委員見諒。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意見還是約聘會不會變成酬庸？我想不管是哪一個政黨，只要立委都會在意這件事情，好不好？"],["李主任世德：了解，這會接受監督的。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們監督一元化我並不是完全反對，但監督一元化就會變成事權統一了，事權統一之後又會發生另外一個問題，這是將來我們每個人都會擔心的，就是會不會把這個委員會變成是整肅異己來使用，不要說整肅不同黨，同黨裡面我看也是殺到瘋了啦！最近有一些政黨內部不同派系也是殺到瘋了，會不會變成是主導的派系去殺他不喜歡的派系？我不知道啦，我也沒有說哪一個政黨，會不會變成這樣？這就是我認為監督一元化可能產生的副作用。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：主任，我相信你會有你的說法，我在這邊就是跟主任說明一下，這個東西千萬不要發生好嗎？"],["李主任世德：不會，它本身就要保持中立。"],["吳委員宗憲：一個委員會的成立是要保護國人，不是拿來做政治鬥爭的，好不好？"],["李主任世德：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢答，其實這都是很寶貴的意見。","接下來請陳亭妃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","賴瑞隆","吳宗憲","陳亭妃","沈發惠","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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請主任秘書報告出席人數出席委員12人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上市會議議事錄"},{"start":1864.878,"end":1892.564,"text":"立法院第11届第三會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議事錄時間114年5月22日星期四上午9時4分至12時46分地點紅龍202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等13人列席委員鄭天才委員等7人請假委員黃建斌委員1人列席官員原住民族委員會主任委員曾志勇暨相關人員財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長馬拉歐斯財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長麻藥古木"},{"start":1893.224,"end":1913.828,"text":"内政部海洋委员会财政部法务部经济部劳动部农业部卫生福利部环境部文化部国家发展委员会行政员主席总处等机关代表级相关人员主席牛昭纪委员许婷报告事项一宣读上次会议实录决定确定二邀请原住民族委员会主任委员率统所属及财团法人原住民族文化事业基金会董事长"},{"start":1914.228,"end":1938.326,"text":"与财团法人原住民组委员研究发展基金会董事长列席报告业务概况并被质询报告事项及讨论事项和并询答委员卢宪一说明提案要旨原住民组委员会主任委员曾志勇报告委员张志伦等17人质询由原住民组委员会主任委员曾志勇及相关人员财团法人原住民组文化事业基金会董事长马拉欧斯财团法人原住民组委员研究发展基金会董事长马耀古木答复说明"},{"start":1938.987,"end":1947.128,"text":"决定一登记发言委员初步在场者外其余均已发言完毕询答结束而委员林一锦丁雪忠等二人所提书面指寻列入记录看登公报"},{"start":1948.777,"end":1975.976,"text":"三 书面质询及未及答复部分请相关机关与一周内另以书面答复并复制本会讨论事项一 处理114年度中央政府总预算案有关原住民组委员会及所属预算解冻案及二案决议以上个案处讨论事项一 关乎二所列第二款第八项决议关乎一 关乎二 关乎五及关乎十预算继续冻结外其余均同意动之拟据报告提报愿会二 审查原住民族基本法修正草案等十二案"},{"start":1976.876,"end":1989.412,"text":"決議以上個案均另定期繼續審查條文均語宣讀完畢宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏好沒有那議事錄確定那繼續進行報告事項和討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1994.591,"end":2010.697,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄二 處理114年度中央政府總預算有關行政院預算凍結案書面報告案即二案討論事項 處理114年度中央政府總預算有關行政院預算凍結案專案報告書面報告案即六案 宣讀完畢好"},{"start":2013.48,"end":2025.07,"text":"報告事項第二案處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案及兩案,均細提送書面報告後,使得凍滯的案子各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":2031.155,"end":2056.835,"text":"我們現在本日議程所列討論事項我們合併詢答那我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員麥玉珍委員王美惠委員黃婕委員李柏毅委員"},{"start":2061.718,"end":2068.226,"text":"張之隆委員我們行政院是我們祕書長,拱明星祕書長我們請行政院拱明星祕書長報告請剪短"},{"start":2084.133,"end":2098.53,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生首先要非常感謝各位委員先進可以本院過去的支持跟協助那在這邊請代表主任長向各位委員致上最高的敬意那有關於"},{"start":2099.671,"end":2124.117,"text":"本院在114年度被凍結的預算那請就凍結本院114年預算的五億元還有凍結業務費70%等六案來向各位委員說明進行指教那首先第一案是有關於行政院114年度預算凍結五億是行政院向貴委員會提出原住民保留地淨法補償條例追加預算"},{"start":2126.218,"end":2142.895,"text":"以及原住民補充人力規劃騎乘等等方案 使得動之有關於進法補償的部分事實上在113年6月24號修訂公佈以後補償的標準由每公頃3萬塊調升到6萬塊"},{"start":2145.197,"end":2149.2,"text":"那經這個原民會盡力的檢討編列原住民百合地進法補償的預算28億已經比113年度增加了7億"},{"start":2158.206,"end":2179.422,"text":"那另外原住民綜合發展基金在投資社會住宅上符合該基金的收支保管及運用辦法第4條第5條有關於基金來源及用途的相關規定所以截至到114年4月底為止基金的餘額還有45億那一估114年底不會有基金運作上的一些問題"},{"start":2185.885,"end":2206.288,"text":"另外本院未來將依進法補償經費上的需求還有社會住宅投資的情形還有基金的財務狀況業務上的實際需要適時由公務的預算撥補協處以改善情況達到我們市政的目的"},{"start":2207.642,"end":2223.416,"text":"那另外有關於協助原住民推動原住民族政策那該會自從103年組織調整到今已經因應業務上的需要合爭的原額大概有59人比103年組織調整前已經成長了35.9%"},{"start":2229.682,"end":2242.343,"text":"那原民會他也會依相關的這個原油管理辦法的規定務實來評估未來所需要的這個人力的列行也好或是人數或是人事費以後呢那循程序來辦理"},{"start":2245.08,"end":2263.365,"text":"另外有關於原民會在113年8月7號公布的評普原住民族群身份法的草案那已經提到那也經過本院的3952次的院會通過了也喊請這個貴院來做審議了"},{"start":2265.706,"end":2292.971,"text":"那最後是本院將審訊面對各種法案跟預算的審查那對於委員所關心的議題事實上本院相關的部會也予為準備妥適的回應那本院將謹慎遵守行政官員列席會議的相關規範並且確實依議事的規則來辦理尊重立法權對於行政權所必要的監督機制"},{"start":2294.042,"end":2310.435,"text":"那有關於第二案行政院業務費凍結70%是執行30%以後使得凍結並經院會以後同意使得凍結那向各位報告本院的院本部的業務費的預算截至到114年5月15號為止已經支用了4078萬元那現在的執行率大概是22%"},{"start":2319.702,"end":2325.632,"text":"那如果連同現在已經簽准的五月份那資金率已經達到26.7%那預計到這個月底呢這個動勢率就會達到30%"},{"start":2333.083,"end":2350.509,"text":"那第三案是有關於一般行政科目凍結一千萬是行政院向官委會提出全面檢討內部管理系統專案報告以後使得凍失那這個是有關於職場霸凌的部分那人事總署近期為了"},{"start":2351.409,"end":2366.256,"text":"因應這個職場霸凌的事件以及強化食物的防治作為在113年11月20號的時候已經通函要求各機關針對現行各機關的這個霸凌防治的作業規定持續強化"},{"start":2369.717,"end":2396.603,"text":"員工的保護以及縮短調查的時程以及落實執行的相關的機制並且要重新檢討修正相關的建議作為以及標準作業流程本院也在113年度12月13號建置了院層級的職場霸凌案件的通報平台除了提供機關內的內部的申訴管道之外有另外一個申訴的途徑"},{"start":2397.903,"end":2414.856,"text":"並且由人事總署進行案件的最終列管另外針對法治主管機關也就是保訓費為了強化現行的各機關職場霸凌防治也已經擬定了相關法規的修正草案"},{"start":2416.411,"end":2440.912,"text":"那未來人事總署將依這個法制化的作業進程持續的利用多元管道分眾辦理這個宣導跟練習以協助各機關落實資產霸凌防治的相關作業有關於第四案一般行政檔案管理典藏掃描以及維護的科目凍結三百萬是行政院向貴委員會提出檔案管理專案報告以後使得凍結"},{"start":2442.153,"end":2445.521,"text":"那本院金管的這個檔案總共高達322萬餘件"},{"start":2448.888,"end":2458.57,"text":"那在112年度我們也訂立了行政院本部的檔案管理中長程的計劃從112年到114年那所需要的經費是693萬5000元但是經過貴院的審議刪減了大概508億1000元那現在改列的是185萬4000元那經過檢討以後我們將來會辦理的項目包括了"},{"start":2475.733,"end":2500.033,"text":"第一個是歷年來資本檔案的數位掃描第二個是國家檔案的這個移轉作業經費那有關於第五案就是性別平等業務科目凍結150萬是行政院向國有委會提出校園性騷擾等精進方案以後使得動之那為了防範所謂的狼師或狼教練進入校園"},{"start":2501.514,"end":2517.175,"text":"除了落實校園性騷擾性侵害以及性霸凌等校園性別事件的通報以及防堵學校不適任人員的機制之外並且透過相關的測試減少相關事件的一些發生"},{"start":2519.037,"end":2535.93,"text":"另外為了持續的完善整個防治機制相關的精進做法包括了要加強學生通報以及處理的資能第二個就是建立友善的安全校園環境第三個劃定師生的倫理界線"},{"start":2537.091,"end":2556.152,"text":"那再來就是說精進通報的系統跟間接還有資料的查詢機制另外還包括了深化司法跟警察人員的專業資能還有就是說強化加害人的處遇措施最後是嚴禮延長性侵害案件的追逐期的時效"},{"start":2557.777,"end":2571.175,"text":"本院教期是整合政府的行政量能結合跨部會的作為有點到面架構全面性的防事安全的網絡共同來守護安全無虞的學習環境"},{"start":2572.594,"end":2601.74,"text":"那有關於第六案資訊管理科目的凍結150萬是行政院向貴委員會提出114年度政策研討以及成果上架的這個網路制度性的做法以後那使得眾知那本院呢事實上已經訂定的行政院院本部邀請專家學者辦理專題演講或研討會成果分析作業的規定並且含之本院各單位查照辦理"},{"start":2603.308,"end":2612.539,"text":"那以上是有關於各案被凍結的預算那懇請各位委員同意解除凍結避本院能夠順利地推展各項業務以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2617.995,"end":2636.559,"text":"好我們現在進行詢問答好委員諮詢前原例作為以下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間5加2分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘上午10時30分子接著發言登記因為今天處理預算解凍案本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見什麼意見蛤喔那其他委員勒"},{"start":2665.507,"end":2675.274,"text":"他有意見我知道啊但我現在還是要尊重其他委員啊我要問一下其他委員啊對啊不是你有意見的就有意見啊"},{"start":2677.776,"end":2679.241,"text":"好 我問其他 請問其他委員好 那個高軍委員"},{"start":2697.341,"end":2709.616,"text":"是不是也尊重一下麥玉珍委員把他的臨時提案念一下好不好我們要了解一下他的臨時提案到底是什麼可以嗎 謝謝好來還有蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":2720.302,"end":2735.917,"text":"如果認為我們這個委員會審查的時候真的是按照慣例啦我們好不容易現在漸漸的委員會又恢復秩序大家比較知道說什麼時候該做什麼事情比如說有法案提案的時候就不會有臨時提案預算審查的時候就不會有臨時提案大家早起剛來這樣比較"},{"start":2737.759,"end":2755.517,"text":"好做事啦 那好不容易是這樣那我想今天每個委員也都有質詢的時間所以意見表達都有適當的時間可以被表達嘛那臨時提案也不是說以後就都不能提對不對 那我是不是覺得還是是照好不容易恢復的秩序來進行這樣我是比較建議這樣好 謝謝好"},{"start":2758.282,"end":2781.252,"text":"如果照議事規則可以臨時提案的話我就臨時提案了不是慣例就不能嘛對不對議事規則是可以臨時提案我就臨時提案議事規則我當主席的人主席可以是要照我排定的這樣子啦這是互相尊重啦但我覺得好我再講話你先等一下好不好"},{"start":2782.593,"end":2799.829,"text":"那我覺得這樣我們互相尊重,我們今天不處理,但蔓越真委員你的臨時提案你先唸一下給大家聽聽看嘛,好不好就照高薪委員的,對啊對啊,你唸一下嘛好,臨時提案案由"},{"start":2806.88,"end":2810.867,"text":"行政部門政府有籌編預算治權 立法部門有預算審議治權"},{"start":2816.744,"end":2838.405,"text":"兩二部門就是互相制衡 立法院部門減預算收入及支出符合憲法或法律之規定立法部門審議預算時減少行政部門所提預算的按編列自收入或支出金額可分為"},{"start":2840.947,"end":2855.018,"text":"可分為個別刪減儀通案刪減兩種方式一是年度中央政府總預算案經立法院依法審議後共刪減2075億元其中含經濟部不當的撥補台電至1000億即通案刪減"},{"start":2872.397,"end":2892.687,"text":"939億的議員就通案刪除之對象提案內容已清楚載明中央各機關及所屬且在通案刪減項目中根據沒有對地方政府補助之通案刪除"},{"start":2895.595,"end":2912.535,"text":"然行政院不僅未依零預算的原則督促中央及其所屬各行政機關遵截預算依立法院決議內容自行"},{"start":2913.916,"end":2916.899,"text":"刪減中央各機關及所屬制開支更違法發文、尼蕭內、延運、撥付地方政府制一般性補助款達27.3%此舉不僅違法法律的規定"},{"start":2935.956,"end":2952.505,"text":"與嚴重傷害地方自治與人民權益影響如身心障礙者的生活補助弱勢兒童及少年生活補助學校水電費學生午餐經費國中"},{"start":2955.923,"end":2968.637,"text":"國中小冷氣電費與維護費、水利工程、清衣書籍、文化與體育發展等地方建設及社會"},{"start":2970.56,"end":2995.034,"text":"福利補助經費一財政收支劃分法第30條明文規定中央政府給予地方政府至一般性補助款金額不得少於修正實行前一年預算編列數中央有法定撥付義務"},{"start":2996.255,"end":3009.8,"text":"不能任意刪除扣除刪減扣除而提案要求行政院應尊重財政收支花分法明定制"},{"start":3011.528,"end":3026.266,"text":"財政保障機制立即停止違法短發行為依法足而撥付給地方政府一般性補助款"},{"start":3027.887,"end":3041.677,"text":"確保中央與地方財政公平合理維護國家正常治理順序與民眾基本權利提案人 麥一貞謝謝這個我請求各位委員我剛聽了這個雖然沒有書面但我聽了這個"},{"start":3056.773,"end":3065.339,"text":"這個不是我們內政委員會可以處理的這應該是去院會去提案的我覺得應該是這樣這我們內政委員會無法處理院會其實已經提案了,也通過了,也表決過了對啊,所以就在院會處理啊對啊,就在院會啊"},{"start":3080.1,"end":3100.827,"text":"上禮拜五不是有表決嗎對啊對啊內容差不多嘛我不好意思直接講上禮拜有表決沒有啦 蔓茵珍委員表達她立場嘛因為今天來的是行政院的代表對啊 對啦好不好 謝謝我們就念過了啦 好不好好不好 我們就念過我們現在開始進行詢答好那我們現在請登記第一位的高金素美委員發言"},{"start":3110.226,"end":3121.697,"text":"謝謝有請藐視內政委員會的拱民署長拱民署長您如果沒有跟內政委員會的委員道歉藐視這兩個字會永遠跟隨你喔好五月的時候你出席朱梅代表處的歡迎酒會你知道你說了什麼嗎"},{"start":3133.482,"end":3145.953,"text":"我說了很多事情我不曉得你指的哪一個你說台美合作可以促成美國再次的偉大這句話我認為不僅僅是失言更是嚴重的國格矮化"},{"start":3147.257,"end":3175.516,"text":"讓美國再次偉大這是川普他的選戰口號您是中華民國的官員你不是美國競選團隊的發言人請問你講這句話的時候是代表你個人還是代表國家的利益因為台美合作不僅會美國再次偉大也會幫助台灣壯大這是互相互利的你知道美國再次偉大是剝削全世界剝削台灣人民嗎台美的合作不會這樣"},{"start":3176.437,"end":3192.666,"text":"我告訴你啦我們是從來不會反對跟美國合作但是呢我們合作的前提之下是必須要平等互利有底線而不是一昧的讓利貴之配合我們回顧一下這幾年美國是怎麼對待我們的我們開放萊豬"},{"start":3195.487,"end":3215.833,"text":"放寬農藥標準簽署了台美貿易倡議卻沒有任何一個保障條款我們接受了台灣學人法案允許美國的人進入到我們的政府體系你們最清楚然後我們將超過九成的外匯存底全部投入了美債"},{"start":3217.433,"end":3238.042,"text":"結果呢美國升息我們也吞下了賄損美國加徵關稅我們沒有得到減免也沒有任何一個經濟的保障或軍事的承諾現在我們行政院還想要不經過立法院就要成立主權基金請問一下"},{"start":3239.563,"end":3243.607,"text":"這個沒有骨氣的秘書長也藐視內政委員會的秘書長這些單方面的讓步讓美國再次偉大我們換到了什麼請您說清楚"},{"start":3251.873,"end":3273.778,"text":"鮑威我們所有的施政方向一定是以台灣的國家利益為重我們換到了什麼 講清楚你不要用這些不明不白的語調在這邊欺騙我們所有的國百姓事實數據證明從2016年開始台美之間的合作非常的好台灣的經濟也創了歷史上非常高的很好的成績出來閉嘴 看一下"},{"start":3275.598,"end":3282.021,"text":"我剛剛所說的這些東西都是最近這幾年發生的事情所有的人民百姓都記得非常的清楚我要再講的是台灣如果真的要成為全球的所謂的供應鏈的關鍵就應該要有什麼要有骨氣要有原則要有自己的主張而不是成為任何一個人予取予求的第51週"},{"start":3303.61,"end":3312.732,"text":"我們看看新加坡看看日本他們對美國也有壓力啊但是呢人家是怎麼樣捍衛他們的國家立場而你們呢我們的國家官員呢既然高喊要讓別人再次偉大台灣要強大不是靠討好美國啦是要靠守住我們人民的利益跟尊嚴"},{"start":3330.646,"end":3340.859,"text":"我真的毫不客氣的說你們對外卑躬居欺但是你們對內對自己的人卻是非常的囂張跋扈請問秘書長你知道49天是什麼意思嗎49天對你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":3347.807,"end":3365.885,"text":"這是行政院違法掃編進法補償預算然後在我們在野黨團強力的監督之下被迫就承認了他的錯誤白紙黑字承諾要追加預算的天數"},{"start":3367.441,"end":3395.919,"text":"剛好49天所以呢你們寧可拖延總預算審查也不願再次面對原住民最基本的補償正義對吧1月10號的時候你們再次書面承諾看一下你們承諾會追加預算而人民會呢也在3月10號依法提出了23.9億元的申請請問秘書長目前追加預算的進度怎麼樣我今天就要解凍你的預算"},{"start":3397.356,"end":3416.029,"text":"我們是盡量當然就是說我剛剛已經說明就是說進化補償從每公頃3萬塊變成6萬塊那我們事實上原民會也盡力的編定了28億什麼叫盡力了依法要編多少你們只編一半"},{"start":3417.169,"end":3437.231,"text":"你們只編3萬塊 另外的3萬塊不見了所以才會有今天49天 然後今天才會再凍結你的預算所以今天才會有所需的經費 要採追加預算方式辦理請問一下 你們追加預算簽了嗎 園民會已經送到行政院了"},{"start":3438.335,"end":3449.661,"text":"我想最重要還是說讓原民可以得到一公頃六萬塊這個市值我們會盡量做好這件事情請再看所需經費彩追加預算方式辦理追加預算方式辦理黑紙白白紙黑字在這裡你們現在不敢講了是不是為什麼因為你們曾經對其他的立法委員說這位立法委員就是張志倫委員"},{"start":3467.651,"end":3473.703,"text":"你們說因為憲法訴訟進行所以不可以追加請問一下行政院有提證實處分嗎"},{"start":3475.871,"end":3504.746,"text":"有嗎我們已經提出釋憲你們有提暫時處分嗎提出釋憲釋憲跟暫時處分是兩回事情根據憲法訴訟法的第43條只有大法官核定暫時處分才能夠暫停預算的執行你們也根本沒有申請啊然後你們卻對張志倫委員說要凍結預算所以沒有辦法追加你們這個不是依法行政你們是欺騙啊你們是霸凌啊"},{"start":3505.586,"end":3523.722,"text":"按照你們的說法是不是現在立法院所有的九州案都毫無意義了呢因為沒有任何的法律效率更離譜的是你們是違法在先現在卻還敢裝自己是受害人二人限告狀請問一下你們有跟大法官承認你們少編進法補償的預算嗎有嗎"},{"start":3528.735,"end":3551.609,"text":"我們提的事件有很多很多的理由啦你們沒有依法編足啊在立法院經法補償一公頃六萬塊是法律先通過的啊根本你們沒有依法編足啊你們眼裡面還有法律嗎再來你們報告說基金還有45億就在上週我在這裡所有的內政委員都在"},{"start":3552.469,"end":3571.399,"text":"原民會主委就說基金的現金只剩下14.6億他也說基金不夠 恐怕會影響所有的業務然後他更擔心的是基金破產好在本席提了一個拯救基金的法案 他也非常的支持"},{"start":3572.279,"end":3586.096,"text":"我相信國人都看得非常的清楚你們行政院對外是逢迎對內是傲慢對原住民是毫無重視連原民會的困境你們都視而不見"},{"start":3588.998,"end":3594.4,"text":"進訪補償到現在已經拖延了201天了行政院你們不僅僅是失職你們還企圖賴賬23點就9億元從哪裡領從哪裡領追加預算方式追加預算方式還有什麼方式你說你說一個 再說一個嘛"},{"start":3613.886,"end":3634.923,"text":"您剛才提到的基金先撥補然後我們再撥補基金是一種方式基金只剩下多少啦你要讓基金破產嗎你要讓基金的錢都沒有用到別的地方去嗎不會破產不會你們行政院怎麼可以這麼二把這麼說謊明明的白紙黑字要用追加預算方式辦理你們卻不要你們這是違法亂紀我今天決定要再繼續凍結你們的預算"},{"start":3647.435,"end":3663.542,"text":"好 請張志榮委員好 謝謝主席各位長官 各位委員 大家早有請龔明欣秘書長好 秦秘書長"},{"start":3667.92,"end":3696.659,"text":"張委員早秘書長早首先還是要請教秘書長其實現在不管朝野的委員非常重視地方首長非常重視現在行政院把地方的一般性補助款給刪減這是地方的救命錢首先還是要跟秘書長報告立法院在114年度的通商決議案裡面他有寫說各項的項目要刪除特別民事要排除法律的義務支出所以一般性補助款不應該"},{"start":3697.84,"end":3716.456,"text":"在這次行政院刪除的對象裡面而且這次行政院把直轄市跟各縣市一般補助款的科目扣減了百分之將近27.3%用來彌補差額這個本席非常的遺憾因為這是要苦地方"},{"start":3717.182,"end":3744.614,"text":"那這是刪減了一些的衝擊包含一些教育補助、社會福利補助以及基本建設補助包含了兒少、婦女、長者、身心障礙者的福利都會受到影響尤其大家也非常關心行人安全、行道道路改善以及維護可能未來都會受到影響那我必須要跟秘書長講新北市有400多萬人全台灣最多人的地方行政跟建設的支出負擔沉重"},{"start":3745.214,"end":3774.017,"text":"中央這次減少27.3%的一般性補助款新北市少了30億今年的預算比去年還要少會影響到教育、社福跟景蕭的建設預算讓地方政府沒有辦法落實到照顧民眾的責任所以想要先請教秘書長請問這個我們當時的通山明明就已經有特別明示要排除法律義務支出了那請教秘書長一般補助款在您認為是不是法律義務支出"},{"start":3775.585,"end":3798.297,"text":"報告委員我的想法跟你一樣也覺得這件事情非常遺憾但是當這個中央總預算三讀通過的時候事實上行政院就第一時間就表達了你有來協商啊你有來協商要我們自己刪636億當時有人請你趕快回去啊不是就是要我們自行刪減636億這麼額度大的情況之下"},{"start":3801.298,"end":3818.29,"text":"這是過去從沒有的是不是請秘書長回應我們要就法律面來自立法院你認為一般性補助款是不是法律義務支出據我了解它不是法律義務支出那我是不是請今天有來主計處的人嗎來請主計處因為我之前在那個主計長當時在"},{"start":3827.682,"end":3846.317,"text":"這個113年12月30號的時候那時候主計長有說這個114年的中央政府總預算稅出編列3兆1325億元而立依法其中依法法律預務項目包含各式人士各項機關人士費社會保險跟退府支出1兆8000多億元占58%均無法刪減這當時是這個主計長所提出來的"},{"start":3853.763,"end":3858.271,"text":"那就您而言你認為一般性補助款是不是法律法定義務支出來請回答"},{"start":3860.244,"end":3883.592,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們當初講的依法律支出其實是在我們在審預算的時候的過程當中先回應你覺得是不是在這個法律裡面是地制法跟財化法裡面是有規定說中央對財力較差的地方政府要給予卓於補助那所以他的法律確然有規定要補支出"},{"start":3884.452,"end":3911.985,"text":"可是它的補助的沒有補助的標準跟數額對 它已經預算書上寫要補助多少錢地方政府也在花了請問這是不是法定一物之出來 請你回答法律的規定要多於補助可是就是說沒有規定說它編列的數額是要多少所以在大院那份法已經預算書上都有寫了現在是刪除了已經有刪除這些的預算了我只是請教你一般補助款是不是法定一物之出可不可以回答"},{"start":3912.961,"end":3927.593,"text":"他是我們在審預算過程當中我們在分類分四大類裡面我們為了審查預算我們有揮了一個叫依法律義務支出的一個所以你有回答是法律義務支出嗎是不是對是在審查預算過程當中好謝謝謝謝好所以秘書長好請秘書長所以秘書長"},{"start":3931.472,"end":3951.65,"text":"這個可能還是要跟你報告一下這就是法律義務之初依法不能來刪減所以請這個行政院好好去想一想是不是應該要來做這樣子的事那最後這個有關於這個議題我來請教一下卓榮派院長說地方政府可以用稅計剩餘來去補這個刪除的一個部分"},{"start":3952.31,"end":3979.74,"text":"可是地方首長也說很多縣市像新北市為例他現在沒有設計剩餘是還背負著非常多的累積虧損所以這個方法不可用那所以我要再請教一下現在很多地方首長非常不能建議我們全台灣的地方首長都非常不能接受這樣的做法有些首長提出將以提出溯源變跟中央追償這樣子的費用請問秘書長你有什麼看法是不是你有想說應該要懸崖勒馬來請回答"},{"start":3981.625,"end":4009.438,"text":"法委員我剛才提到的就是說當這個三讀通過的時候我們覺得自愛難行我們提出複議然後也被否決然後現在提出否決你也照當時你來政黨寫上的時候是誰否決你啊好請繼續那就是說我們按照立法院的決議就是自行調整這個636億那我們在這個自愛難行的情況下現在的方法那自愛難行你有沒有考慮說當時你內心有想法有沒有考慮要追加預算"},{"start":4011.053,"end":4034.543,"text":"還是你就是想說要刪地方補助款我們已經提出付益跟市縣相關問題你有沒有想說要追加預算過 民主黨有嗎你當時來不是想要你當時來政黨協商的時候不是想要討論說追加預算嗎那為什麼現在決定要刪地方補助款你的心境是什麼轉變就算追加預算也要行政院跟立法院有相互的溝通好所以行政院當時是想要追加預算 是嗎"},{"start":4036.773,"end":4040.857,"text":"這個我已經沒有忘記了還是害怕想起來"},{"start":4042.35,"end":4071.173,"text":"好謝謝秘書長那我知道就希望說行政院還是要好好來有一些更好的解決方式啦好那第二個我要想問一下行政院過去的霸凌案去年不管勞動部跟行政院都有霸凌案那當時有三行政院我記得有三大霸凌案包含這個消保處公關處以及當時秘書處都有霸凌案那秘書處當時因為有來跟我解釋所以我相信現在沒有在調查中那我想然後公關處的部分因為處長"},{"start":4072.074,"end":4097.797,"text":"現在因為身體不適也調離職位那我想要請教有關於消保處跟公關處的部分現在調查情況如何因為當時我相信已經從年初到現在已經五個月了我們現在沒有看到任何的結果我需要說霸凌是要零容忍的是不是可以簡單講一下說為什麼關於這些霸凌案現在都沒有相關的調查結果來 請回答總共有四件"},{"start":4098.658,"end":4116.443,"text":"那其中一件成立,其他三件沒有成立啊?沒錯,就三件霸凌案嘛三件抓過來,我請那個...好,謝謝跟委員報告齁,剛剛你講到消保處跟公關處的部分,我們從去年到今年一共只有四件霸凌案那霸凌案其實我們全部都已經處理完畢了"},{"start":4119.224,"end":4126.167,"text":"然後呢,有三件案子他們都沒有提出申訴,只有一件,霸凌不成立案子,現在在提到保訊會的再申訴您是說沒有調查的反而提出申訴,三件有成立的不是,我們全部調查完畢,也提到我們的審議委員會裡面的,已經確定了已經確定了,那資料?"},{"start":4143.206,"end":4158.419,"text":"好 我們事後再提供給服務員好 謝謝最後還有一件有關於地方建設請秘書長回答我們中和有一個國道3號中和交流道的改善工程你知道這件事嗎14.9億的計畫這個計畫在去年的113年4月3號可行性評估就已經出爐了也核准了"},{"start":4164.344,"end":4192.086,"text":"然後高空局在7月31號的時候建設計畫也送交到交通部那交通部在9月25號將本計畫交給行政院審查那國發會在113年的1月5號也送給行政院來審查意見結果本席在12月10號發函請行政院看說什麼時候可以核定因為當時我有質詢的時候有拜託不管是陳建仁院長或是左榮泰院長他們都回應我尤其是左榮泰院長回應我說在12月底"},{"start":4192.586,"end":4217.715,"text":"可以合定 計數合定可是本席在12月10號發文只有得到一張公文說計數審查完成結果在今年的5月19再次發文回了我一模一樣內容一模一樣一字未改的文也說將計數完成那我要跟秘書講講說這個說的話 說到的話要算數我希望行政院可以加速整個期程那本席這邊 我不知道今天有沒有這個表"},{"start":4218.875,"end":4241.254,"text":"當時有個表也提出來說這工程規劃當時預計到達要完成的時間是在今年的上半年大概四月份左右現在已經五月份了已經延期了所以我希望說行政院秘書長這邊不要發給我永遠都是同樣的公文沒有任何的內容然後企圖說對地方的建設好像有所阻擋我覺得這是非常不好的狀況"},{"start":4241.834,"end":4264.913,"text":"那要跟秘書長再快速報告一下其實工程規劃跟設計作業是可以加速進行的尤其現在已經拖到設計作業的時間了會讓整個尤其建築師設計過的時間會縮短這對地方的建設非常的不利這也跟行政院院長當時說要積極來處理是違背的是不是請秘書長回答是不是現在行政院這是什麼樣的原因我想先聽聽看你的意見"},{"start":4265.834,"end":4290.84,"text":"我想我們會按照那個回覆的文裡面兩次回覆都一模一樣的內容這都是你的章欸 你的章 關印欸你有看到這個內容嗎可以半年四個月回一樣的內容 一個字都沒有改我們盡速來辦所以要拜託藝術長你要盡速來辦因為我這邊是有收到舉報啊說有人在故意在擋這樣子的地方建設的東西啊"},{"start":4291.58,"end":4307.65,"text":"我今天不先把人民給透露出來我希望秘書長回去現在都已經承諾了事情而且這個設計款大概才兩千多萬是一個不要去擋地方的建設就是說我們當然是需要說這個地方建設不分政黨大家一起來努力好不好好謝謝好我們請蔓越江委員"},{"start":4323.223,"end":4327.351,"text":"主席好 有請公民署長好 請民主署長麥委員好"},{"start":4334.536,"end":4352.994,"text":"我們今天執行就是為替全台22個縣市廣大基層的民眾討回公道你們把立法院刪除的636億元全數轉嫁到地方政府的一般性補助款"},{"start":4353.755,"end":4358.218,"text":"全台灣22個縣市補助款一例被砍了25%以上一個都沒有放過立法院刪除的是中央政府及所屬機關的預算沒動地方補助款半毛錢是你們行政院一花接木把中央部會的該砍的責任"},{"start":4381.57,"end":4386.012,"text":"因塞給地方請問秘書長這是執政黨實施的方針嗎用我們總召的話來說這是什麼無法無天的土匪行徑濫用職權行政院到處放話說都是應該是執政黨害的才對"},{"start":4406.8,"end":4412.845,"text":"搞得朝野對立 南北分裂苗栗縣被砍了28.1億 財政已經快喘不過氣來雲林縣又砍了37.6億 刪除讓我們的農水路還有交通全部卡關"},{"start":4432.932,"end":4436.156,"text":"基隆市被砍了24.3億只能停辦煙火活動請教一下你們是想讓地方建設就是"},{"start":4446.274,"end":4449.557,"text":"這樣子斷吹嗎讓基層民眾吞苦水就無法活下去行政院不是沒錢是不願意負責最會招搖的吳士堯委員說是立法院刪除了939億行政院才沒辦法請問立法院刪除的是你們中央自己的預算"},{"start":4473.686,"end":4477.147,"text":"誰叫你們把這個責任丟給地方呢這不是你們第一次這樣操作過去在立法院刪除中央的預算時我們內政部長也是這樣子威脅我們的人民說什麼豬補助發不出來現在又一樣就是故知重施拿我們長期長照就是"},{"start":4499.694,"end":4523.834,"text":"学校的农路的这些基层最有感的项目来威胁这不是预算的调整这是政治的啰嗦去年中央部会文宣创新高参与参参参理费还有业务费更是年年就是一直在提升人少了但是呢服务也少了但是业务费都是"},{"start":4525.655,"end":4527.976,"text":"創新高為什麼不從這些地方來去刪除偏偏就是要砍掉我們地方的救命錢所以這個部分我們請我們的秘書長回應一下"},{"start":4544.056,"end":4561.991,"text":"其實所有的施政已經是依法行政所以當大院通過了三讀預算的時候我們這第一時間就表達說會有自愛難行之處尤其這個636億因為過去沒有這麼大額的要自行刪減這是沒有辦法處理的事情所以我們也提出複議"},{"start":4563.032,"end":4585.345,"text":"但是我們明確的講,明確我們是刪除中央的我們地方一毛都不刪,但是我們中央部會呢自己的吃喝玩樂的,就是沒有去刪就是偏偏要去刪人民需要的地方行政院的業務費被你們刪減的非常非常之多"},{"start":4588.035,"end":4614.243,"text":"今年是創新高人也沒有服務那麼多我們人民人越來越少但是你們的經費越來越高總預算提案表白就是提案就是白紙黑字三的是中央及機關及所屬才化法第30條修法後也明定中央政府給予地方"},{"start":4615.495,"end":4634.15,"text":"政府的一般性補助款金額不得少於修正實前前的一年的預算變略數中央補助地方法規第十二十三條跟規定中央政府也不得任意"},{"start":4634.99,"end":4650.184,"text":"三减地方的补助款秘书长你们统三的补助款让苗栗云林基隆还有各县市地方已经陷入财政危机你觉得是否有违法呢"},{"start":4653.561,"end":4660.285,"text":"沒有 我們一定會幫忙 地方如果有任何需要 中央一定會幫忙但是我剛才提到的這個636億 我們要依三讀大院的這個三讀預算 我們來辦理你說三讀預算來辦理 但是剛才你又說什麼我們三讀通過 你自愛難行對 自愛難行黑白都是你說的 這一款 這一些補租款"},{"start":4679.736,"end":4694.592,"text":"就是大喊你們不是你們大喊地方喔但是你們呢不是先協商也不是先溝通而是就是在四月底匆匆忙忙發一個喊一通"},{"start":4695.413,"end":4700.118,"text":"一直就是通知地方說5月起就直接扣款這是哪一個國家的行政程序啊這是動作根本就是先砍再說這樣子在正常治理國家嗎而且你們就是程序正當性嗎完全是就是全砍"},{"start":4716.853,"end":4721.556,"text":"就是這樣子的各縣市經費不夠行政院你知道嗎所以說還有根本都不在乎我們地方的苦還有你們就是有進行的這樣子的影響評估嗎為什麼這樣子胡來是認為說不用對我們的人民交代嗎還有說我們民進黨全面執政時呢在2024年指三地方補助"},{"start":4744.509,"end":4745.269,"text":"款只有4%現在呢在野黨監督就卻大砍了27.3%這什麼標準啊雙標嘛這是你們地方政府這樣子的一個"},{"start":4759.599,"end":4778.607,"text":"這就是讓我們地方政府要有心理準備 這個是某什麼傲慢的邏輯啊 方向通知 方向通知沒有達到共識啊這樣的結果就顯示出當初大筆一揮 刪掉了939億 那個是不適當的 才會造成今天的結果"},{"start":4779.667,"end":4782.329,"text":"這個是你拿人民的血汗錢來去砍我們砍的是中央吃喝玩樂對不對但是我們最反感的是說你們高高招商就像現在那種態度所以呢我們行政院三讀通過你也說通過了三讀通過依法行政但是你們要無視立法院的決議還繼續違法扣款"},{"start":4805.645,"end":4822.431,"text":"這樣何時補足 何時補助當然我們要追查嘛 追問嘛為什麼要提出臨時動議就是因為我們已經三讀通過也要依法行政你也講依法行政 但是還是沒有依法行政所以今天才要提出這樣的預算我們覺得啦 我們就是政府這樣子的一個一個間接的規劃 從規劃預算"},{"start":4832.674,"end":4835.416,"text":"從規劃預算到審查預算到現在為止我們看到的是你挖一個陷阱挖一個就是擺明就是把民眾地方的民眾來開刀寥寥幾章就會想說預算過去但是地方呢申請呢都要花很多時間這不是預算上的問題而是制度以態度的錯誤"},{"start":4860.094,"end":4862.796,"text":"行政院不僅是選擇最讓基層的人民遭殃還一再的錯誤的代價丟給地方甩鍋再也打這種政治操作真的讓人民讓基層要做事的人真的是很難過民眾要的不是政治口水不是你們在這樣子的時間一直在講這些事情但是你們這個變成一個"},{"start":4888.655,"end":4908.359,"text":"陰謀的一個設計讓我們地方政府受苦就是你們一開始就要這樣子了我們不介紹行政機關讓人民為你們的籌碼更不容忍中央對地方的財政霸凌這個是我們嚴重的抗議對我們行政院還有秘書長希望我們今天的預算我們也不同意通過謝謝"},{"start":4918.305,"end":4921.226,"text":"好 我們請王美惠委員主席主席 我們現在閉嘴好 請秘書長"},{"start":4937.853,"end":4943.278,"text":"王委員好 秘書長早 今天我們要凍結行政院裡面 你有說到幾項重要性第一項是國藥 裡面有很多補貼 希望國境做得好"},{"start":4956.571,"end":4962.473,"text":"這是對於原住民的照顧 我覺得每一個人都可以看出你們的年金要怎麼去完成這是最重要的 第二是在你們的政府裡面"},{"start":4975.606,"end":4980.37,"text":"它當時的70%剛才你說的說中間到差不多五月底的時候你們就支出差不多中間要30%因為你剛才說的說五月十五到26%多嘛到五月底可能就都很沒錢了在這裡面我要請問秘書長在這個過程我覺得說當時的今天"},{"start":5006.476,"end":5009.437,"text":"想要當一個可以說冠軍在30%以後,可以有錢當傭但是在這個過程,不知道是你們故意還是想不夠因為你看前一星期,大家完結為了地方一般的步驟看,跟今天說要來"},{"start":5030.985,"end":5034.126,"text":"解凍你們行政院的時候,我認為對你們認真抱怨的人有一點不知道是你們故意還是什麼,也說把這裡凍了之後,還來宣佈說要怎麼來處理,跟大家坐著來參詳"},{"start":5050.931,"end":5054.533,"text":"像這樣今天如果沒辦法做的時候,剛才你所說的說一定沒錢,這樣這個30%以後要怎麼處理來,秘書長你講一下報告委員,就是說剛剛特別提到的就是說"},{"start":5068.31,"end":5087.166,"text":"百分之三十,我們大概到五月底就會達到百分之三十對,我知道,未來要怎樣如果沒有過,要怎樣處理,這是重要的,快樂的至少是不是給我們部分的解凍,如果大院還有疑慮的話至少多少讓你們可以有資助,如果沒有的話"},{"start":5091.915,"end":5109.326,"text":"他們都不愛你,你要怎麼做,就不要做了,把你囂張,你很漂亮,坐在那裡喝茶,這樣而已,不喝就沒錢了這個業務的推展一定會受到阻礙,阻礙秘書長為什麼我還要說這樣,你可不可以知道"},{"start":5110.543,"end":5121.406,"text":"因為我們鄉長會在南部的北省,他們家人行政服務中心在這個規定33的時候,他們的業務費399%啦對一個家人來說,要給什麼啦"},{"start":5135.74,"end":5154.828,"text":"現在對著南部人的時候,要辦事情非常不方便中央的政府才想到說,我們是不是來用一個印加人的服務中心來服務南部人結果你看山的人,有良心嗎?他想要山想要山,在大議會的時候,山他不知道山什麼不知道"},{"start":5166.144,"end":5168.085,"text":"山南不夠井湯那靠啦這實在有夠陷的啦陷多多啦所以說在這裡彼此中本是要自己探討說這是有贏還是有沒有不對但是在你形容說我們高雄不可以選要補助農民的不可以選"},{"start":5193.134,"end":5201.498,"text":"因為我們國防院要保護國家嘛 所以不能刪在這個過程當中 你也很堅固的去刪掉一般補助的結果在地方來說 像我的家裡我家裡是一個夢幻森"},{"start":5214.321,"end":5221.346,"text":"在武漢省裡面,你雄雄來說,最緊要省十八億對一個家庭來講,它也有困難所以我們再說回來,有困難的當中當時在那裡省,比說什麼人省那麼多的時候,才有夢到良心中央要怎麼做?中央要如何配合他們的建設?"},{"start":5243.729,"end":5254.741,"text":"社會公來公去,什麼人受惡劣在代言會,在那扇來扇去不知道要扇對一條的人,扇到火的一角謝委員,事實上我們就是照"},{"start":5263.354,"end":5270.017,"text":"至少中央政府對於地方上的協助是不遺餘力的所以為什麼我們會編...因為你也有說到說苗栗的時候如果有困難的時候跟你來協助你跟在一起"},{"start":5279.417,"end":5285.704,"text":"不像你那天苗栗說的苗栗他出來宣佈說我們現在的薪水沒辦法賺沒辦法賺還是這樣說的不像中央那天他再來昏暗說出什麼"},{"start":5298.769,"end":5304.054,"text":"真的聽到很脾氣,當時是他們在議會選的時候,他們都沒想到中央需要補助的地方要這麼多人,像大家說的說,我們搞不好社會行為也要補助,照顧也要補助,教育也要補助,是怎樣的事,當時在選的時候沒想到,"},{"start":5324.496,"end":5331.902,"text":"又來釣人自省山,六八三十六年的時候,只有省這群人,還在那邊寬氣寬鬥,夠自由行的,實在我今天"},{"start":5340.635,"end":5358.805,"text":"真的對於地方來說 你說苗栗可以補助 家庭是一個模範學生你可有想到他那年生 那年生幾歲 我們的中央 你要如何去協助我們身為家庭的一份主 我也需要地方的補助"},{"start":5366.533,"end":5374.418,"text":"十八月的時候,又應用多少所以當時是要三月二月,兩心無齋好,請裡面議員謝謝,有請拱主委"},{"start":5397.952,"end":5423.989,"text":"請祕書長喔 對不起 請孔祕書長因為很早謝謝喔 孔書會以前在負責國家的經濟項目那這一...這一...我從去年來這裡以後齁覺得所有的部會齁祕書長最無辜啦我怎麼說你無辜呢我們內政委員會上一個預算會期"},{"start":5425.657,"end":5453.923,"text":"一直要排審行政院的預算的時候一直遇到中國國民黨一直安排選罷法甚至在行政院預算要審的前一天我們這裡戒嚴啊整個內政委員會這一邊的門被封起來走道被封起來包含張昭偉包含黃婕委員、汪美惠委員、蘇角惠委員還有我李柏毅我們都進不來"},{"start":5454.816,"end":5481.782,"text":"內政委員會審選罷法用九十幾秒通過這個選罷法加嚴的選罷法隔天要確認議事錄隔天也就是要審議行政院的預算主委你是不是呆坐了一整天沒有辦法上台從早上我大概將近九點八點多就來了一直到下午所以當天後來沒有辦法開會為什麼今天"},{"start":5483.004,"end":5501.13,"text":"為什麼今天我們還有解凍案啊所以跟所有的其他的部會預算都一樣其實這一個行政院的目前這個民主黨你這個預算裡面根本內政委員會沒有審過直接在院會裡面做刪跟凍對不對"},{"start":5503.16,"end":5515.467,"text":"所以秘書長我說你無辜冤枉就是你根本就沒有機會在這邊捍衛過在內政委員會捍衛過行政院的任何一毛預算但是就被刪了這麼多就被凍了這麼多秘書長給你一分鐘趕快來對刪跟凍做一個解釋"},{"start":5522.994,"end":5542.732,"text":"所以說非常可惜就是那時候在審預算的時候後來因為種種的原因沒有辦法針對預算來做討論然後後來是全案的保留然後送到院會去院會我想各位各黨團他們有他們的考量然後"},{"start":5543.633,"end":5571.473,"text":"也沒有溝通的機會沒有溝通完全沒有溝通的機會三天院會只有處理三天的政黨協商而且完全沒有涉及到任何的內容就刪了那麼多的預算也動了那麼多的預算所以今天我們很希望可以在這邊來解凍相關的預算讓行政院可以繼續運作我唯一比較有印象的就是在委員個別提案裡面今天處理兩個啦第一個就是統三"},{"start":5572.193,"end":5584.543,"text":"通山的這個939億裡面他有列的裡面他列的他只列到300多億嘛其他還有636億叫行政院自行處理嘛行政院"},{"start":5589.063,"end":5604.117,"text":"請行政院另予補足到939億嘛第二個其實還有什麼還有它裡面有列案要刪除包含行政院的各個服務中心包含南部服務中心南部服務中心的業務費被刪除99%"},{"start":5608.159,"end":5633.632,"text":"山竹99%去到南福恰公的人都有感第一個 冷氣調高兩度先等第二個 電梯關掉一台先等第三個 沒有錢買衛生紙你來南福恰公的時候你千萬不要跑廁所你跑廁所你千萬記得一定要帶衛生紙這個是有感的部分傷害到的是誰 傷害到還是我們恰公的民眾"},{"start":5634.813,"end":5648.759,"text":"那目前這一個636億裡面影響到各縣市政府的我來講一下行政院為什麼沒有辦法刪國防經費能不能刪撥補勞保基金能不能刪撥補住宅基金能不能刪租金補貼住宅基金能不能刪"},{"start":5661.775,"end":5669.765,"text":"農發農損333億能不能刪公共建設計畫2509億能不能刪刪了我翻臉刪了影響到高雄的地方建設刪了影響到捷運直線刪了影響到鐵路立體化能不能刪"},{"start":5679.295,"end":5700.274,"text":"台灣最重要的科技發展計畫目前包含人工智慧1396億能不能刪政府的基本維持運作7000多億能不能刪好全部都不能刪之後現在這636億也刪到高雄的一般補助款所以其實冤有頭債有主誰刪的誰負責藍白負責謝謝"},{"start":5710.452,"end":5711.754,"text":"我們請黃婕蕙委員好 謝謝主席 我們請秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":5730.505,"end":5736.894,"text":"好秘書長早喔這幾天大家都在討論這個一般性補助跟行政院的關係說要來杯葛你們說你們亂砍了他們的預算我還是再次請教喔請問秘書長這個預算到底是誰砍的啊"},{"start":5745.527,"end":5772.682,"text":"立法院的決議啊當然在立法院院會裡面通過的當然主要應該贊成的都是藍白的立法委員是嘛秘書長也知道嘛你們很努力的想要挽回這一筆預算跟我們立法院說不要亂砍這個砍下去傷害到的是全台的人民當時你們還苦口婆心苦口婆心的一個一個勸就算了你們也提出復議了該表達的都表達了結果立法院最後"},{"start":5774.002,"end":5778.686,"text":"亂刪了一個900多億最後說636億要我們行政院自行去補足然後自行調科目那我看了這個要怎麼調科目啊因為他們現在就是問你拿著一把刀問你說你要砍左手還是要砍右手啊砍下去都是他們的錯啊砍下去人民都痛啊我剛剛看了一下這個其實你們這個政院的這筆預算喔"},{"start":5802.335,"end":5818.138,"text":"有勞保啦 有住宅基金啦 農發基金啦 農損基金啦打架的 防災的經費啦 還有最重要的國防預算啦也就是說如果現在我們要挑一個項目 請問這些項目可以挑嗎那個都沒有辦法挑 所以我們才在自然難行之下提出這個我們也不願意的一個方式"},{"start":5830.45,"end":5851.083,"text":"這是真的很無奈啦 怎麼說很無奈 我知道行政院很為難我剛剛講的這幾個項目 沒有一個人敢做這個決定說你敢去砍國防預算啊萬一如果我們砍了國防預算 是不是藍白又要來說你看我們的政府不支持國防 沒有要捍衛自身的決心了所以國防預算絕對不能砍嘛 勞保可以砍嗎 不能砍嘛"},{"start":5854.045,"end":5857.186,"text":"農損可以砍嗎也不能砍嗎對農民的照顧這些都很重要打架更不用說了也都是大家都認為非常重要的一筆經費所以這樣看來看去沒有一筆是可以砍的那等於是怎麼樣都是要逼你們做壞人嘛"},{"start":5869.272,"end":5893.992,"text":"所以我認為這個對鎮員來說真的很為難但其實最老實說啦最無奈最委屈的莫過於我們南部縣市因為其實我們南部縣市過去也本來就是因為財政體質不好所以其實中央也都是利用一般性補助的方式讓我們南部的縣市可以透過一般性的補助可以拿到一些至少不要財政上這麼困難結果這樣子一般性補助一刀劃下去"},{"start":5895.013,"end":5905.103,"text":"砍的最重的就是我們南高坪尤其是我們高雄市八個委員在立法院全力捍衛預算這麼努力的幫行政院捍衛但結果最後因為這個藍白的二手砍下去的結果受傷最重的卻是我們高雄市那我在這邊也覺得很委屈啦還是希望說希望明年如果藍白願意回頭了"},{"start":5919.736,"end":5946.921,"text":"如果藍白願意妥協願意道歉了那我們趕快重新把這個預算補足不要讓我們南部的縣市成為最大的這個冤大頭喔我認為是真的非常的委屈啦在這邊也讓政院知道說我已經從上禮拜到這禮拜我已經接到非常多我們高雄市的鄉親跟我哭訴說哇怎麼這個砍下去我們高雄市這麼支持我們行政院的預算"},{"start":5947.661,"end":5958.273,"text":"這麼支持我們國家政府的財政的結構也支持財政健全都不支持這樣子他們亂砍預算的結果最後受害的是我們南部我這個還是要在這邊幫我們南部的鄉親來表達"},{"start":5962.338,"end":5977.837,"text":"好最後一點時間我要來跟這個秘書長請教一下我們職場霸凌匿名通報的事情因為我知道說從去年這個勞動部的事情發生之後我們行政院其實動作也很快馬上處理了一個霸凌通報的申訴平台可以上線了"},{"start":5978.217,"end":5995.96,"text":"那到现在看起来也是有一些案件都有列管追踪但是我想要讲的是其实有很多民众跟我反映他们希望还是有一个匿名通报的选项因为他们当然会担心被报复或者是说在这个职场的环境里面有一些压力所以如果能匿名通报是最好的"},{"start":5996.761,"end":6025.479,"text":"那當然有民眾也有發現說其實在網頁裡面如果你用一個這個公務人員人事服務網的帳號的方式可以技術性的匿名通報所以我在這邊是想要建議說是不是就有一個方式是讓他們可以直接匿名通報如果已經在這個職場上面有遭受到霸凌的情況或者是他們有一些壓力想要藉此來讓自己受到保護的情況下可以反映這個霸凌的案件是不是可以有這樣的管道呢"},{"start":6027.38,"end":6054.533,"text":"我們並不是說如果匿名的話我們就完全丟掉不管不是他如果描述的內容非常明確的話比如說某一個人他怎麼樣怎麼樣的話也會去了解跟調查如果真的有這樣的形式的話也是會處理的除非說他又匿名然後又沒有指明什麼樣的情況就是不夠明確的話不好調查我們沒有辦法調查最重要的是能不能調查如果可以調查我們就會啟動調查"},{"start":6055.694,"end":6071.133,"text":"好那這就是我想要拜託啦那當然我認為這個霸凌通報的申訴平台要持續運作然後也希望你們可以實質的列管追蹤讓這個如果真的有受到任何不平的民眾都可以受到你們的保障好嗎是好那張嵐"},{"start":6072.154,"end":6095.131,"text":"在這邊最後我也講一點啦其實剛剛最後秘書長也有提到你們性平業務的部分我在這邊是希望可以督促你們性平業務的督導因為大家也知道說最近其實台灣各地都還是有發生一些性平的事件最近最著名的就是這個金門京城國中的一個老師他命題的內容真的不堪入目我一個字都不想再看"},{"start":6095.931,"end":6122.754,"text":"那這個案件當然是屬於教育部的業館那當然我希望性平竟然是我們政府非常重要的一個政策我也知道性平處很努力那這樣方面的業務督導我們是不是也可以把我們這些正確的性平觀念可以佈局到所有的政府機關裡面會會我們會透過性平處跟各部會在讓他們理解跟了解這個必須要的這個性平的注意"},{"start":6124.332,"end":6133.266,"text":"那因為我是認為說這一次他們學校的懲處其實是非常不夠的包括說這個老師的嚴刑已經這麼嚴重了結果他只有停聘六個月"},{"start":6134.301,"end":6159.232,"text":"他的懲處就是挺聘六個月而已我相信大家看了都會覺得這個對於一個在提升性平意識的做法都是不足夠的所以我是希望說政院這邊也要拿出我們政府的態度我們對於性平的重視那是包括說剛剛其實祕書長也有提到我們現在的一些重點的性平業務嘛是不是可以再跟大家報告一下我們接下來重點的做法好,我是不是請那個,是不是處長好,請處長"},{"start":6162.984,"end":6182.022,"text":"谢谢委员那性平处这边就是我们有性别评点真的是纲领那每四年呢我们都有重要的性别推动的计划重点那今年呢114年已经上一期的最后一年那所以我们会研发下一个年度的四年的一个重点的计划那包括在角色参与"},{"start":6182.362,"end":6208.831,"text":"提升女性经济力还有性别歧视的这个部分的一个消除那还有就是在这个人身安全的这个性别平等的一个我们有个国家的行动计划那这个都是我们未来一个很重要的一个推动的方向那歧视的这一块确实是一个很需要在全面性的一个性别平等意识提升的这个部分所以也是我们未来很重要的一个推动方向好这个要拜托然后也希望你们定一些政策的时候可以更细致"},{"start":6209.951,"end":6213.134,"text":"這個是一定要的好嗎好這個拜託處長好謝謝秘書長好謝謝那再來我們請張宏祿召委"},{"start":6249.18,"end":6258.026,"text":"我先請拱秘書長還有我們的主計處處長好 請秘書長跟主計處處長我想先請問一下我們主計處的呂處長我們在編預算的裡面有法定支出是不是有法定支出"},{"start":6279.193,"end":6297.345,"text":"這個名詞有有嘛那有法定預算嗎有法定預算都有嘛對不對所以剛剛大家一直在講什麼法定預算什麼什麼都不能動不能砍是這樣嗎"},{"start":6301.673,"end":6325.31,"text":"法律支出跟法定預算是不一樣的法定預算是我們整個預算在行政院送到立法院叫預算案預算案審查通過就是我們院通過以後總統公佈以後叫法定預算法律支出就是我們在預算的編列的時候有一些編列的項目是有法律明定的"},{"start":6326.01,"end":6334.224,"text":"那個叫法律支出比如說像人事費我們公務人員的那個人事費那所以法律支出呢我們行政組織總署也有一些定義但是呢就是說"},{"start":6338.908,"end":6368.115,"text":"就是法律義務支出人事費法律上明定以外又編入預算所以是在規範它有一定的編制的標準跟編入預算是這個意思對啦所以我就請教啦應該有一個你的法定預算既然是法定預算了是已經公布了吧對不對是已經公布了那叫法定預算啊早上有很多人在講法定預算不能砍"},{"start":6370.444,"end":6393.551,"text":"公佈了啊他還有機會砍嗎法定預算就是措施性的法律就是總統公佈的法律我的意思是法定預算就是這個預算案已經定案了嘛就是多少了嘛已經核定了嘛總統也公佈了嘛在縣市可能縣市首長也都公佈我今年要花多少嘛對不對這個是不是才叫做法定預算"},{"start":6394.724,"end":6421.935,"text":"法定預算這個名詞是法律名詞預算法上的法律名詞對啦對是總統公佈以後的叫法定預算總統公佈以後那個法律名詞就叫做法定預算是不是是嘛對不對那我們在審預算的時候我們在審預算的時候應該有一些叫做法定的支出吧法定的義務支出法定的義務支出法律義務支出對嘛這個兩個是不同的概念吧不同"},{"start":6422.495,"end":6435.949,"text":"不同嘛對啊所以我剛剛一直在想一直在聽我一直覺得每個人都這樣講讓我搞混了所以我要請教請教你啊所以我的觀念才是對的吧"},{"start":6437.657,"end":6461.523,"text":"那是委員 是的 是的是啦齁 所以在那講整部報 講整齋有的很多人 甚至還有說要怎麼樣說什麼法定預算不能砍或什麼的我一直覺得很奇怪啦就我的認知 法定預算就已經公佈了當然你要砍你也沒得砍了啊 除了追加減可不可以請我們行政院主計總處他主管這邊齁 有這個"},{"start":6463.984,"end":6480.42,"text":"不是啦就很清楚就是這樣了嘛對不對你除了追加減你才可能去動它了嘛不然你怎麼可能還會去動它我的意思就是說啊齁其實要來處理一個這個追加減或是我們今天要解凍"},{"start":6481.454,"end":6504.392,"text":"其實不用有那麼多理由啦要合理的預算我們就支持嘛啊不合理的當然要被凍結要被那個我覺得這個就是一個最基本的原則我覺得是這樣吧祕書長是不是這樣蛤沒有你說啦是啦齁啊所以啊其實原則就是在這裡而已啊對不對齁我認為啦"},{"start":6508.362,"end":6534.369,"text":"行政院今天我們來處理這個解凍案你們業務費什麼撐不下去的或什麼的你們要勇敢大聲的說出來啊你們如果不說誰知道啊對不對連剛剛大家在講那些都講的我跟你講全國人民齁沒有多少人聽得懂你們法定預算法定義務支出什麼什麼沒有什麼啦但你們現在就撐不下去了吧水電費繳不繳得出來"},{"start":6538.609,"end":6567.329,"text":"不是 我叫你要大聲講 你們還都不講過去一直準決啦 但是還是有他的時間性還是撐不久吧對啦 我覺得啦該說的就說啦 該爭取的就爭取嘛我們今天應該聚焦在這裡啦其他的也不用去說太多啦我覺得啦 等一下我們在那個時候你們就大聲講嘛 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":6571.281,"end":6573.988,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿教委的資訊再來我們請丁薛忠委員"},{"start":6587.605,"end":6603.796,"text":"好 感謝主席 我剛才在等你久違才開始講好 這樣讓我們的秘書長休息一下我請我們的主計處旅處長跟我們行政院主計總處公務預算處的專門委員好 請兩位"},{"start":6615.985,"end":6634.856,"text":"處長,地方公所的特殊單位是管政府,所以他們的分配款是由管政府分配給我們地方公所,對嗎?他們是在替我們地方公所做委員、服務的第一線,也替我們管政府來做到軍鄉鎮的一個發展的一個規劃。"},{"start":6639.699,"end":6641.822,"text":"我們婦女館政府 國管局政府 指數單位就是中央立法院 行政院 他們指數單位先行所以"},{"start":6655.305,"end":6671.396,"text":"他們都替我們行政院 當了解到地方的需求 了解地方需要建設 了解地方要如何專業 增加生意來向中央來照顧到地方的需求來向中央來建設經費 來替我們地方來建設還有 當我們這個統籌分配款 這也是過去一直以來就是都由中央來支付給我們縣市政府的 這也是正確的"},{"start":6688.321,"end":6698.678,"text":"但這次的綜藝省裡面,我會記得當我們這個工作給我們地方的同儲分配款是一甲都沒有刪掉"},{"start":6702.782,"end":6725.595,"text":"報告委員主委總書這邊跟您說明一下就是在我國的這個政府的體系裡面來講的話中央政府跟地方政府都是獨立的公法人都是獨立有民選去運作的所以地方政府雲林縣政府他本來就要依照地方制度法去實施他的地方自治事項那地方自治事項該負擔的經費也要由雲林縣政府來負擔"},{"start":6726.576,"end":6750.547,"text":"那只是說有時候可能在地方政府在裁員上面有所困難的時候所以他需要中央來做協助所以中央在預算裡面會編列補助款所以補助款只是說是地方政府的事情那我中央在財政上給予資源那這個資源必須要看我中央的財政能力的狀況我可以支援到什麼狀況那理論上地方政府的"},{"start":6751.227,"end":6774.95,"text":"你這樣說我們政府收的稅金我們就可以自己留下來就好了是沒錯我們可以自己留下來我們不用上繳中央國庫吧如果再依照這個採訪法規定的地方稅當然是地方收地方去用沒錯只是裡面有一個同...貴等名的管理政府需要的我們的中央的分配款統籌分配款生意都當前陣子就都設定好了"},{"start":6776.551,"end":6791.908,"text":"這跟委員報告這個統籌分配稅款它的設計上來講就是說在地方稅以外有一些稅務我們可能就是說必須要由這個這些稅務來統籌出來然後由財政部統籌分配給地方例如有個卓德稅今年給我們婚姻館政府的統籌分配款是多少"},{"start":6799.12,"end":6826.19,"text":"我跟委員報告這個統籌分配稅款是可能就是從所得稅提撥出來或會務稅跟這個土地政治稅提撥出來你建議區議會讓我們分明管政府是多少個統籌分配稅款是財政部負責它不編入我們中央政府的總預算不是我們主計處加不是 是財政部負責的我們主計處這邊是代行政院在處理這個一般性補助款的部分一般性補助款的部分好 這樣我就請我們基礎長"},{"start":6833.036,"end":6854.096,"text":"因為中央政府的預算裡面是不包含統籌分配因為統籌分配他是按照公式所以公式訂了以後該給多少財政部就直接撥給了地方政府那一定是有預計說明年要多少要給地方多少今年就要預計好還是今年就要規劃好的啊"},{"start":6854.836,"end":6869.87,"text":"因為投資分配款基本上它有一個公式它等到相關的一些稅的結果出來按照那個公式就知道說每一個縣市可以分配多少不是這樣啦我們那一年"},{"start":6871.832,"end":6876.278,"text":"我們中央政府要構造我們地方的這個同儲分配款喔其實那當今一年就都計算好了是啊是啊當今一年計算好了是啊我們今年,我們中央要給我們份量的同儲分配款,總共是一百三十七億是"},{"start":6887.473,"end":6894.799,"text":"一共三十七億啦對啊結果我們黨我們的這個中央政府我們整個的綜藝省我們將對這個統籌分配款將對在國際的綜藝省的股份我們一戶人都有去刪除到就是代表說可以順利讓我們中央教醫院一樣繼續構造我們地方的統籌分配款可以讓他們順利來執行到"},{"start":6916.136,"end":6921.46,"text":"我們之前的一些學務甚至學歷也好結果今年我們婦人館政府,不要說婦人館政府而已啦全國的國管制,我們行政院主動申請27.3億元婦人館的薪金37億元"},{"start":6938.971,"end":6942.414,"text":"因為我知道這不是你決定的,我也是要讓你知道,我們分明是五級的相關,我們要基礎建設,我們要照顧到我們這裡福利的,我們要跟法官有聯盟的情緒,我們一個相關有辦法一個省37億人,"},{"start":6959.568,"end":6963.591,"text":"這對我們婦人館長今年後半年來要來執行到我們公屋要來執行到社會福利這樣是要怎麼下去執行這樣可以這樣把我們關起來"},{"start":6971.564,"end":6977.772,"text":"包括委員說老實話我們也覺得非常無奈大體通常的939億你說那些3兆元以上通商不是每年才發生的通商是每一年都發生但是那個額度都很小很小我們有辦法自己去調整"},{"start":6990.828,"end":6995.509,"text":"但是今天16百多億這個是沒辦法調圓的我主席對到我們今天的行政院我們這個總議席的結帳案真的我們都很樂觀你看國國會都在結帳 國國會都在結帳我們有對到什麼困難有疑問大家再研究討論"},{"start":7009.973,"end":7018.598,"text":"對,我也是希望說,因為這經費對於行政單位來說是非常重要的,醫生對於行政單位來說真的是非常要緊的,所以我們知道醫生的重要性"},{"start":7026.922,"end":7049.43,"text":"還有我們會替中央政府想要預算的重要性還有我們地方管理政府的預算的重要性這個道理在哪裡?這個工程在哪裡?報告委員 事實上我們中央政府對於地方政府事實上是大力支持所以如果加上您剛才提到的統籌分配本一般補助還有計劃型補助事實上我們編列的預算是總共加起來是超過一兆"},{"start":7050.47,"end":7065.798,"text":"那個都是要來支持地方的那但是因為我們中央政府的預算被砍那麼多的情況之下而且有這麼一大筆的六百多億必須要自行參選的情況之下這個說老實話是不如奈 這是統三的過分啊統三的過分啊 是啊 是啊我們秘書長在講統三的過分統三的就是939億啊 統三是有我們國國肥 全地國企業的基礎或是全地福建 或是從福建我們可以下去去參選"},{"start":7079.963,"end":7087.699,"text":"不是說統三,就是叫你們來統三管治政府的這個方法的樣子這樣我們管治政府再來後面的年度是要怎麼再繼續經營下去"},{"start":7093.086,"end":7103.174,"text":"因為我知道這件事不是秘書長你可以有辦法做決定,我還要推動政府歡迎給你們聽,不好意思又花了一兩分鐘的時間來,鄧委員剛才有把我們秘書長提起的高中的產業研修"},{"start":7113.922,"end":7118.947,"text":"一半十年的時候,我們秘書長在做政務委員兼國會主任,那時候是高中產業園區合併的時候我剛才在那裡,有一個院長跟我們的經濟局長有討論說盡快來推動高中產業園區"},{"start":7136.297,"end":7144.02,"text":"除了炸高中就要發電了炸高中就要發電在這30年你們合作管政府已經去招商都做好了都做好了產業也要進駐管政府也一直要開始在發表到我們這個產業園區的這個工程啊希望遇到一個選舉天災地變來一切天災天災平平全都不一樣的這個高中產業園區"},{"start":7165.458,"end":7172.303,"text":"現在變成那時候是九十幾個九十幾個做第一期當我們婦人館政府環境就可以馬上進行現在說要一兩百七十個開始進行推動我也是"},{"start":7182.423,"end":7190.746,"text":"支持啦 我也是支持啦 既然社會已經煮成功了 我也是支持我們現在一二七十個月下去推動 但是風勢風勢要怎麼加快 要怎麼讓我們電影的發展可以越快這就是要靠我們中央 我們行政院 我們經濟國 我們農業國來專利來幫我們協助啦 真正的 現在年輕人有機會越來越少"},{"start":7210.692,"end":7220.46,"text":"出外越多 當我們故鄉的靈考所越來越老年化 年輕人的感覺在故鄉沒有機會這也不是你們所看的 也不是我們所期待的我們要把地方發生的事情 要順便讓你們知道我們要替我們地方 跟我們中央做一個溝通的橋樑希望我們過這個橋 過到那邊 到那個時候 給你們的訊息希望你們可以給我們一個外遇的一個協助和答案 這樣好不好"},{"start":7240.683,"end":7242.104,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請民宿長"},{"start":7269.984,"end":7282.79,"text":"蘇仁好 秘書長好 秘書長我今天好像是第九個質詢嘛那前面您已經回答了八個人秘書長您上一次來這裡就行政院的預算就進行備詢的時候還記得是什麼時候嗎"},{"start":7286.07,"end":7308.074,"text":"應該兩三個月嘛大概兩個多月之前我也忘記了好像很久了對但上一次的結果是什麼就行政院預算被大幅凍結甚至是刪除很多不然的話我們今天不用在這裡要來討論行政院預算解凍案吧對委員會全案保留到院會裡面被大幅的你知道行政院的預算被凍了多少刪了多少我們原來總共的預算是15億10億是人事費5億是業務費5億裡面"},{"start":7313.086,"end":7327.44,"text":"被刪除了兩億五億裡面刪除了兩億然後凍結了五億就是今天要解凍的五億然後還有這個業務費他還要求剩下的這個百分之七十要先凍結"},{"start":7329.522,"end":7353.378,"text":"那你那時候有跟大家說跟這個國民黨和民眾黨的委員說這個會刪除的預算額度這麼高凍結的預算比例這麼高行政院會有至愛難行的部分下半年要怎麼做這些話你有講嗎沒有機會說明因為全案沒有討論實質討論啊你在外界有講嗎你在各個媒體上面啊或者有任何空間的時候你有講嗎有人聽嗎"},{"start":7355.459,"end":7379.491,"text":"我們有一再的說明那你剛剛啊這個今天時隔三個月之後又來站在這裡了剛剛聽到這個又是同樣當時凍結你預算刪除你預算的委員站在這裡講說行政院凍結刪除了地方縣市款的一般補助款這樣導致地方事務自愛難行你叫我們耳破耳默要怎麼做你的心情怎麼樣"},{"start":7383.794,"end":7404.89,"text":"我心情我們的這個這個好像比這個還要更高這個兩邊好像這個如果把這個臉遮住換一下這個好像就是兩三個月前雙方的立場完全交換嘛這講的話一模一樣啊所以就是"},{"start":7405.831,"end":7434.343,"text":"沒有一個政府沒有一個公務員會扶編預算爛編預算到一個需要被砍掉百分之三十四十甚至超過一半以上的嘛沒有公務員會編這種預算啊如果一個公務員編出了這種會被立法部門抓到辮子抓到有問題而有正當理由刪除百分之五十六十七十以上"},{"start":7435.163,"end":7462.043,"text":"的行政部門的話那不管他是中央還是地方不管是哪一個政黨質詢那確實啊你如果被正當的刪有理由要被刪這麼多的話那你確實這個行政部門是有問題但你反過來講如果這是不正當不應該這樣刪除的話那這一個監督機關這樣子的腐爛刪除凍結超過一半以上的預算啊這不知道在做什麼啊"},{"start":7463.144,"end":7480.433,"text":"這例子這樣的監督有道理嗎這是站在立法監督機關應該要有的表現嗎這個今天到底這個到底不正字明嘛你就把今天站在這個質詢台上同一批委員三個月前的談話和今天的談話拿來對照一下"},{"start":7482.954,"end":7504.347,"text":"這不就是很清楚一個立法機關監督機關該做什麼表現該講什麼話他有沒有依以貫之完全一樣的道理啊不是這樣嗎這個民主黨你這個很想點頭啊但是又不好意思點頭因為怕頭點下去等一下不曉得行政院的預算可不可以被解凍是這樣嗎是是"},{"start":7507.631,"end":7524.332,"text":"因為照理來講就是說我們行政院編列的預算每一個每一個項目每一分錢基本上都有他要做的事情那當然大院立法院可以針對說他的必要性給你適當的刪除但是他不能說很大的一筆要我們自己去刪除這個"},{"start":7527.124,"end":7542.276,"text":"市長我覺得你應該試著用最白話的語言跟全國人民解釋我們今年你們編了明年的預算總數是多少3.1兆對不對那被這個在野黨委員藍白聯手煽動了多少2000億多一點2075億現在全國都知道這個2075的數字那在這個裡面他又要求你統三多少"},{"start":7556.477,"end":7582.676,"text":"統三九三九億統三九三九但是這個統三九三九他也找不出來要刪你的什麼項目他就說你把重複編列的符案編列的你自己去找啦你再刪一個六三六來啦這就是現在偉大的六三六這個數字嘛對不對好這個六三六你不知道要刪哪一塊啦請問你今天如果不是動一般的地方一般型的補助地方一般型補助那請問你要動哪一塊"},{"start":7584.176,"end":7589.061,"text":"所以我們為什麼覺得很無奈就是在這裡這不然你就要動計劃型補助嗎這不然你要不要動法定義務支出要不要動公務員的薪水你就是買一塊餅就是這樣它就是一塊餅它就是一個人的身體要不你就砍左手要不你就砍右手要不你就砍右腳要不你就砍左腳反正總是要割一塊肉下來因為636實在太大塊了不知道要砍哪裡啊"},{"start":7609.239,"end":7627.325,"text":"這不是指甲剪一剪這不是頭髮修一修這樣的問題而已這是要割下你一塊肉剁下你一隻手剁下你一隻腳所以你說如果當行政院當國家的整體預算被砍掉了這麼高額的話你整個人會失去的功能無法運作不是就是這樣嗎"},{"start":7629.105,"end":7656.804,"text":"那今天你說按照你這裡寫的其實很清楚啊我們在看到你這個在對媒體上面講的時候其實你講的很清楚啊你說你實在是負荷不了這個你實在是沒有辦法完成立法院的決議再去自行調整6361所以你找出了這樣子的一塊預算來然後呢你就按照立法院統三國家預算的態度把它統三27%嘛"},{"start":7659.165,"end":7677.155,"text":"是不是老實說我作為地方的民意代表我們也很痛啊我們真的很痛啊因為當藍白委員在砍國家預算的時候那只是一個數字大家沒有感覺但是當這個數字少了總預算編列回到地方縣市政府的預算當然就少了"},{"start":7682.938,"end":7708.085,"text":"到地方政府的預算少了的時候你家旁邊的造橋 鋪路 水溝 電燈 教育 社會福利每一項都少了這就是跟人民切身相關的啊當藍白砍你的預算書數字的時候你沒有感覺當你家旁邊的水溝不通 路燈不亮當你的租金補貼沒有當你的育兒今天沒有的時候你就知道"},{"start":7709.529,"end":7722.042,"text":"對你的生活是非常有影響的而冤有頭債有主到底是誰砍的國家預算就是藍白委員啊今天怎麼還好意思在這裡跟大家講說行政院要砍這個預算當時我們抗爭了多久抗議了多久"},{"start":7725.705,"end":7739.31,"text":"這到底是怎麼回事嘛所以行政院我真的覺得你今天就算就算這個今天等一下預算節都不順利你也還是應該要把整個邏輯講清楚國家的預算就是這麼多"},{"start":7740.92,"end":7756.45,"text":"國家的整體預算就是這麼多今天沒有動到一般型的補助也會動到其他的預算每一塊都是人民的痛每一塊都會痛所以今天的源頭就是藍白亂砍預算我們非常非常期待今天藍白委員可以盼然悔悟"},{"start":7763.775,"end":7779.35,"text":"正式反而他們不是行政院要對大家道歉啊是這些委員應該要到底為什麼之前會提這種案即便他現在來解凍坦白講很多也來不及了啦你知道很多在教育藝術文化的這些補助案"},{"start":7780.311,"end":7791.279,"text":"因為當時沒有成立沒有預算來開這些案所以後面的計畫也都開不了了啊所以這些影視從業工作人員藝人從業工作人員整年的工作都大亂了啊收入也銳減啊這難道不是影響嗎這個今天這樣解凍案解了以後說欸我把立行預算案解了"},{"start":7800.126,"end":7820.04,"text":"就OK了嗎工程的展延也已經展延了不要說別人那台電的補貼沒有下來我們電感地下化爭取了好久的所有的電感地下化每一頁都停住了那這個工期損失了三個月四個月算誰的這個是一句預算現在給你解凍了這樣就可以了嗎"},{"start":7821.161,"end":7832.792,"text":"所以今天本席真的是不吐不快那我覺得秘書長一向是比較溫和偏偏君子所以 抱歉今天沒有讓你多講話但是我講的話你應該都同意吧"},{"start":7833.717,"end":7850.892,"text":"我是覺得秘書長我講的比較大家聽得懂今天就是看你要砍右手還是要砍左手還是要砍左腳還是砍右腳好啊不砍右手那接下來那你說嘛不然你就把六百六十三億吞回去就是這麼簡單好謝謝秘書長謝謝謝謝我們剛才蘇教會委員加徐宇臻委員"},{"start":7866.566,"end":7870.428,"text":"今天我聽到很多民進黨的委員都在講說藍白亂三預算這個就是一個謠言可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎"},{"start":7888.294,"end":7917.253,"text":"當秘書長你還說表示贊同我來幫你回復一下記憶在去年的12月18的時候我們在內政委員會要審查中央我們行政院的預算當時是徐欣委員擔任召委那當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事導致委員會空轉一整天所以大概到了下午4點才議事恢復正常那召委也宣布恢復開會當時秘書長您也還在我們的委員會可是不曉得為什麼您接了一通神秘電話之後你就離開了"},{"start":7918.514,"end":7935.205,"text":"那當時呢 我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實是藐視國會 藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉 而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出的時候 我有提出來這個虛偽人在當召委的時候 我有提出來"},{"start":7944.164,"end":7952.609,"text":"許委員在的時候當召委你有提出來你可以看一下我的這個凍結案你就可以知道我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告那你有提出來嗎從那個時候到現在從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位不要說你貴為秘書長啦連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告都沒有"},{"start":7972.372,"end":7989.5,"text":"然後另外喔 因為我們就提出報告了有 我上面的 你看一下解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告喔所以您到現在還不曉得這個解凍案 您今天就要來解凍完全都沒有做準備啊 上面有說 而且您也承諾說要提出報告另外喔 再請教您就是"},{"start":7991.926,"end":8002.859,"text":"我們在去年8月31號的時候我們通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9248億的法定預算比113年還增加730億而行政院最近以落實財政紀律大砍地方性的補助27.3%"},{"start":8013.09,"end":8027.976,"text":"那也引發各縣市強烈的反彈那也很多縣市可能也會提告那請問行政院對外宣稱這些所謂的一般性補助款屬於得補助的性質並非強制性的支出可是我們根據中華民國憲法第147條的規定中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展"},{"start":8033.758,"end":8046.603,"text":"也就是說行政院無故刪減地方補助不僅違反法律也是觸犯憲法我們看到立法院通過的這個統三的決議你請您看一下有一般性補助款嗎有一般性補助款嗎民主黨請您回答"},{"start":8054.588,"end":8078.196,"text":"在螢幕上這邊嗎對這個就是我們你們當時列出來的希望你們刪減的比例跟項目有一般性補助款嗎沒有沒有好不好你應該再來備詢之前就要了解清楚了結果你還要看半天才告訴我沒有第三項說要另於補足就是自行調整好他說如刪減數未達939億元那以這個比例是不是303億"},{"start":8082.557,"end":8100.868,"text":"好我們講的是總三減數喔那總三減數其實台電就1000億啦加上台電1000億不就1300多億了嗎其實就已經夠啦所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼然後非要把它弄到一般性的補助款那個已經刪掉以後還要再我們刪額外補足636億"},{"start":8102.609,"end":8126.711,"text":"那636億如果有困難的話你是不是可以也是追加預算為什麼可以用一般性補助款來我們可以看一下報告委員我們第一時間就說自愛男性您看一下所以為什麼提出不是好秘書長您說這個一般性補助款的話具有裁量權是得補助不是應補助對不對您這樣講嘛地質法還有這個財政發問法荒謬的來了請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站"},{"start":8128.854,"end":8156.554,"text":"您看一下喔114年度一般性補助款的編列情形表好我給您看一下內容您看一下這是主計總署所列出來的上頁主計總署所列出來的一般性補助編列情形表你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性的補助款是2501億元都沒有下架"},{"start":8158.121,"end":8182.859,"text":"這是你們現在在主計總署的網站喔沒有下架所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊刪了還不敢跟證下架因為這是法律義務之初所以如果你刪了就是違法這是法律義務之初 再給你看好 是誰說是法律義務之初的你知道嗎是你們卓榮泰院長 請看下一頁我們看一下立法院第十一屆第二會期第一次會議議案的關係文書的第五項"},{"start":8184.093,"end":8200.371,"text":"依貴院審查111年度的中央政府總預算所決議案另附具114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法義務支出明細表一份好下一頁您可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出"},{"start":8201.571,"end":8218.953,"text":"這是卓榮泰院長所發的這個公文所以這份公文是假的嗎這在我們立法院的關係文書上面一般性補助中央政府一定會補助地方政府但是法律義務支出沒有說一定要補多少法律義務支出可以刪減嗎"},{"start":8221.474,"end":8248.411,"text":"這個公然說謊嘛秘書長我覺得知錯能改我們一定會同意解凍但是你在那邊一直硬拗的話我覺得我們沒有辦法接受因為他明明就是法律一支出這也是你們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長發的這個立法院的關係文書所以這份公文是假的嗎我先問你這份關係文書是假的嗎有卓榮泰院長發出的我沒有叫你回答"},{"start":8249.332,"end":8261.79,"text":"民主黨 請問這份關係文書是假的嗎 總統太院長這個公文是假的嗎我不知道 我要再check一下什麼你不知道因為 因為要查證啊查證 好 那你要多久時間查證"},{"start":8263.883,"end":8284.801,"text":"難道我會拿一個假的文書來去告訴你嗎你好好查證這表示國會到這種地步我覺得秘書長你真的非常非常的失職這當然是你們這個行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出所以請"},{"start":8285.987,"end":8312.773,"text":"秘書長不要再公然的說謊了因為其實我們地方上的這些政府他們真的很需要這個一般性的補助他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福還有一些教育類甚至一些基礎建設你現在無關的這個就減掉27.3%有些這個像不管是雲林還有一些比較窮的縣市苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來"},{"start":8313.533,"end":8336.466,"text":"那雲林來說的話他砍掉了27.3%他的社福他的這個各項的建設根本沒有辦法進行那你用這樣的一個方式捅散27.3%讓地方成為政治的犧牲品這樣子是非常非常說實在不僅違法而且是沒有人道的方式所以請秘書長要跟院長報告三思而後行趕快懸崖勒馬謝謝好我們請吳清明委員"},{"start":8353.641,"end":8356.648,"text":"好 主席我們與會同仁 請我們行政院秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":8364.89,"end":8378.939,"text":"我們從2024年就是去年12月20號在我們在野黨的三讀的裁劃法通過其實裁劃法通過我們中央就要提撥3753億異住於地方"},{"start":8384.793,"end":8405.942,"text":"那大量的增加我們中央的財政負擔其實我們在在預算案的我們在黨要求我們行政院自三六百三十六億那今天行政院除了迫於我們刪減的各部會的經費甚至還是一般的補助"},{"start":8406.792,"end":8429.499,"text":"地方也要減少為25%那中央實際在我們地方的預租那是大幅有縮水但是以實際上我本席調出的資料中央在補助我們新北市我就以新北市114年新北市還補助了983億"},{"start":8432.8,"end":8456.411,"text":"扣除一般性的補助25%的30億仍然還比去年還多了69億這一點喔 民主黨你要對外說明啊六都都增加六都就是即便是扣掉這個25%以後事實上一般性補助還是比前一年還要增加對啊"},{"start":8457.657,"end":8472.877,"text":"這要對外說明啊不然大家都會誤解說中央這樣一下來的話對地方的補助款都大幅的縮水那我在這邊也要感謝我們行政院其實在新北市一些重大建設"},{"start":8474.159,"end":8487.548,"text":"比如在我的縣區 萬大縣萬大縣在本席這邊的資料我們就補助了172億那山陰縣也補助了185億那你看我的縣區還有一個市法園區也補助了170幾億那還有京城交流道"},{"start":8499.586,"end":8523.997,"text":"五十幾億其實總總齡齡加起來就超過在新北市並沒有壓縮但是我身為新北市的市民也是新北市的民意代表當然新北市還是需要很多經費還是要我們中央來挹注那希望說我們行政院還是秉持著說地方的發展地方的需要地方的百姓的訴求"},{"start":8524.877,"end":8551.66,"text":"我們也是要站在北省的隔壁中央來預算原來我們原編的預算如果本來地方政府就有統籌分配稅款那另外如果加上一般型補助跟計劃型補助的話事實上總共這樣的金額加起來是超過一兆那這個也是就是說中央政府對地方政府是完全支持那現在是因為我們的636是額外增加出來的"},{"start":8552.981,"end":8564.651,"text":"不曉得要怎麼去處理我們當初就是說自愛難行提出復議也沒有被接受所以我們現在提出了釋憲那在這種情況下我們還是因為三讀的決議就是要砍掉這個636"},{"start":8566.397,"end":8584.858,"text":"我們就要想辦法去怎麼樣去滿足這個刪讀的決議那也跟地方政府說非常抱歉所以如果這樣的情況個別的這個地方政府有任何困難我們都會個別的協助那個別的協助你會不會覺得說我為什麼先刪掉以後再補助你不一樣因為我們要符合立法院的刪讀的決議"},{"start":8587.201,"end":8609.828,"text":"所以我在這邊的呼籲我們在野黨其實你又要馬耳好又要馬耳不吃草那不可能你行政單位你一些行政會你都刪除那受害的還是民眾所以我們未來還是要共同的來溝通因為我需要說大家共同接納共同研究重大事來處理這是全民的福氣來變形因為時間上的問題"},{"start":8614.949,"end":8627.274,"text":"秘書長我上次跟你所提出的就是那個重機械的問題那重機械在五月份在我們內政部與交通部因為當初我也拜託秘書長來處理這件事來從頭來研究那現在"},{"start":8631.275,"end":8645.886,"text":"整個現在的進度是怎樣它是可以分成短期跟中長期的處理方式短期就是交通部他已經這個交通設施的這個認定大概就是可以馬上來處理那另外我們當然是希望長期來講的話整個這個"},{"start":8649.02,"end":8677.663,"text":"5月15號剛開完會就是有關於中長期的這個結果目前就是經過因為內政部要修正非都的管制規則那他需要有一個程序的東西那有一個要跨部會協調的部分5月15號已經完成那經過協調交換部這邊也願意配合所以這部分後續就是要確認交換程序發布事宜所以算是非常順利"},{"start":8679.105,"end":8698.562,"text":"這樣喔好謝謝謝謝秘書長還是要請秘書長出面才能整合我們各部會啦那我再次的感謝那也拜託秘書長我們的相關單位時間上我們把它訂出來多久給我回報好不好好謝謝好我們請劉許廷召委"},{"start":8710.57,"end":8733.445,"text":"謝謝主席 共秘書長有請好 請秘書長秘書長早安先跟你討論一下預算的事情因為地方制度法69條1項怎麼寫的我可能要查一下法條的條文趕快 趕快 活力支援一下"},{"start":8742.973,"end":8762.382,"text":"地制法第六條的規定是各上級政府為謀地方均衡發展對於財力較差的地方政府應佐予補助所以這就是為什麼大家都會講所謂的一般性補助款是屬於法定義務支出的原因因為法定義務支出你怎麼去算就是有明確的法源講你應該要做什麼對不對"},{"start":8764.5,"end":8774.5,"text":"那你現在因為立法院的決議你要統三對不對然後你就說現在我們要拿一般性補助款來開檔這個是你們花了多長時間整理出來的最佳結果"},{"start":8775.757,"end":8796.367,"text":"授權統三就是你們要自己自行尊潔的概念嘛以往不管是國會的結構長什麼樣子誰執政誰在野都一樣所謂的授權統三不管金額大小其實就是以尊潔總開支作為核心戰略目標但是不希望傷筋動骨所以讓行政機關有一個調整的空間對不對這是我認知統三的意義嘛"},{"start":8796.947,"end":8816.042,"text":"這個金額實在太大了這次金額很大所以我今天要問你嘛金額很大是一個客觀的問題這我們不反對但問題是你金額很大的時候你也有很多種方式可以來處理嘛請問你們整個行政院院本部針對這個統三這個燙手山芋你們提出了幾種方案你們跟大家說明一下"},{"start":8816.727,"end":8836.462,"text":"包委員我們當初第一個時間就提出說事實上他是真的是自愛難行所以為什麼提出復議我們就希望說立法院可以重新再思考這樣的問題如果在復議這個部分可以做處理的話我今天不是在問你提出了什麼救濟手段你一定想最差嘛就是說如果復議被立法院否決你還是要面對這件事"},{"start":8837.583,"end":8852.101,"text":"但六百多億的那種三法你可以把所有各式各樣的統統統一遵截3%這是不是一種方法你可以盤點政府的各項計畫有哪些大型的專案晚兩年實施這兩年預算就遵截掉你是不是就可以遵截掉一大筆大筆的方法"},{"start":8853.061,"end":8877.309,"text":"你是不是也可以思考也許部分的計劃型補助款重新思考分配的額度我的意思是講統三這件事情你其實你從行政機關的角度你本來就有很多的調度空間你說今天所有東西齊頭是是不是只要減3%不到大家結一說是不是也是一種方法那我就問嘛你行政院到底想出了幾種方法然後最後為什麼決定是砍一般型補助款請你給大家一個清楚的說明"},{"start":8878.297,"end":8900.124,"text":"報告委員我想因為我們中央總預算送到立法院後來的提案是好幾千個案子那每一個案子都是有針對性的這個來做刪或動那這麼幾千個案子處理下情況之下就是要刪掉三百多億對啊我今天沒有在問你這個三百億我問你六百多億嘛我覺得就是說"},{"start":8904.288,"end":8913.145,"text":"這麼嚴格的審查完以後表示說其他的部分都有必要而且應該要去做包括國防什麼我們沒有辦法去處理這樣的事情"},{"start":8915.831,"end":8944.58,"text":"所以說老實話以我們來講也是非常的無奈你的意思是說各方面都是其他一毛都不能尊潔你行政院想做的是一毛都不能尊潔但地方都可以尊潔你意思是這樣嗎如果這個金額事實上是我們可以調控的話那當然沒有問題但是這個金額實在是太大了六百多億所以我才問嘛你們在內部討論的時候有幾種方案嘛你有沒有討論過幾種方案還是根本從頭到尾就沒有方案你第一時間就直接想到一般性補助管你把他幹掉就算了我們今天想釐清的是這件事"},{"start":8945.302,"end":8969.669,"text":"當然是就是說最後我們還是要依照這個三讀的決議嘛你不要跟我跳針啊你到底有沒有別的方案嘛你有沒有討論過別的方案主席總署會說原理我不曉得他們有沒有想了很多案子但是跟行政院來討論的覺得這個還是不是最好的方法但是總是一個方法"},{"start":8972.856,"end":8984.042,"text":"報告委員就是說依照立法院審議刪減的數字就是總共要刪減2075億那這部分來講的話中央各機關其實已經大幅刪減了1439億那剩下636億這部分我們要再去立法院請我們自行刪減那我們在考慮的過程當中就考慮到說這裡面有"},{"start":8996.388,"end":9012.814,"text":"一些公共建設科技發展還有法律支出這些東西可能都必須要國防這些東西都必須要我講的是人事費那些東西啦那都必須要比較沒有再三減的空間所以就剩下機關專項的計畫跟基本運作的經費"},{"start":9015.655,"end":9040.049,"text":"那這一部分如果在扣掉國防以外其實剛剛提過各機關要刪那個1439億裡面在這裡面他們其實已經被大幅刪減了18.5億如果這636億再分攤到這個科目來講各機關的基本運作經費可能就必須要大幅刪減到29%左右所以說考量到這一些因素以外所以說因為一般性補助款也是我們總預算的一環"},{"start":9041.59,"end":9059.432,"text":"那補助款的概念就是中央在財政上有多少的餘裕然後我們看主要補助地方多少所以當初考量的部分就是說這一部分是只剩下這一部分有調印的一個空間所以說就去調整這個刪減這個一般性補助款以上說明我跟你講你現在做這樣子的一個政治決定對不對"},{"start":9060.563,"end":9083.702,"text":"破壞的基本上是中央政府跟地方政府之間的互信關係嘛那是飲鴆止渴的一個概念嘛如果今天你真的講說很困難所以中央的部分做出了若干的尊潔實在暈不出來地方尊潔但受傷程度小一點你也經過了比較完整的權衡比如說相對財政弱勢的縣市政府我的補助三的比例比較少而不是一刀齊都是能砍那今天正義不會這麼大"},{"start":9085.003,"end":9111.791,"text":"但今天你整個呈現出來端出來的菜就是非常粗糙嘛我今天就挑一個項目為了湊足六百多億我就一刀切也不管各個地方的發展需要也不管縣市政府的一個狀況跟努力你就這樣一刀切這真的是一個好的通商的模式嗎這當然人民自有公平啦大家後面這個題目還有的草大家就看著辦吧另外待會我們要討論預算解凍案你這公民署長你上次我們凍結最大的理由就是因為你上次不來備詢"},{"start":9112.691,"end":9132.954,"text":"那剛剛你回答徐宇甄委員的時候你講說你都有說明嘛在這個地方我把他調出來看但你這個說明裡面你沒有講實話啊因為那個說明裡面第一個你有承認你明明就知道兩點過後延長開會時間嘛所以他會議恢復正常進行你自己也有回到現場對不對但你回到現場的時候因為趙委員不在你就跑了"},{"start":9133.82,"end":9151.711,"text":"然後你說大家都走了大家沒有走啊你好幾個處長當初還坐在下面本席那時候還一個一個點名稱讚表示他們很尊重立法院可是後來為什麼他們也走了這段你要不要交代一下當初的確是會議的狀態其實不是那麼明確那沒有明確"},{"start":9154.814,"end":9179.808,"text":"會議狀態明不明確應該不是由你們來認定吧應該是立法院的委員會做決議來確定的對不對延長開會動議的時間延長開會時間動議通過他就延長開會時間到討論事項處理完畢為止所以這個會議是非常清楚的議事人員都可以作證不是由你們來認定的吧因為兩點的時候螢幕上打出來是說會議上會開始突然改過來因為當初在確認延長開會動議有沒有通過嘛結論是有通過啊"},{"start":9182.229,"end":9198.843,"text":"真的到後來要請你回來的時候已經是傍晚了你這三四個小時都可以因為兩點那個三分鐘沒有及時更新你就可以擺爛這樣不太對吧更重要你還沒回答我問題啊就是說為什麼那些你下面本來處長都回來都準備要備詢準備要詢答了結果現在他們突然走了呢是你的指示嗎"},{"start":9199.639,"end":9214.399,"text":"沒有我沒有指示他們那他們為什麼突然離開還是他們也跟著你一樣看你不在大家就不在因為會議的狀況不明我就先離開了那後面其實有很多人講因為你收到奇怪的LINE有人傳訊息叫你可以回家你就回家了是吧沒有啦沒有"},{"start":9214.659,"end":9229.609,"text":"沒有啦那你為什麼不來備詢呢你如果要來備詢搞不好五一根都不會凍結嘛可是你今天回答的時候報告也寫得不清楚對不對你也沒有好好的針對這個問題來進行回答那怎麼解凍呢對不對你自己思考一下我們待會還有時間討論好不好好謝謝辛苦了謝謝好 請徐先生留言"},{"start":9250.693,"end":9252.542,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請龔秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":9261.183,"end":9281.254,"text":"前面有兩位委員有提到去年內政委員會的會議本席想要在這裡特別說明 祕書長你覺得會議狀態不明或怎麼樣我想那一天是誰杯葛 執政黨的委員杯葛整個的議事程序"},{"start":9282.054,"end":9300.462,"text":"然後搞不清楚的也是執政黨的行政院秘書長所以我們在這裡很遺憾執政黨又要背個會議然後又不來備詢但是今天本席的質詢內容沒有這個我只是在一開始我先針對這個來講首先今天我們想跟秘書長來就教"},{"start":9307.481,"end":9328.511,"text":"現在當然大家都對於我們這個一般性補助款2501億呢對各直轄市政府或縣市政府的這個補助款首先本席請教你這2501億在去年審查114年總預算的時候它有被立法院刪減嗎有沒有任何一個立委提議刪減這個 有沒有"},{"start":9337.2,"end":9354.776,"text":"並沒有沒有 對原因是什麼本席跟大家說因為我們行政院應該這應該是主計總署提出來的114年度中央政府總預算編列一法律義務支出明細表"},{"start":9355.512,"end":9375.349,"text":"所以呢 各位 這個2,501億對地方政府的一般性補助款他是不能刪減的立法院都不能刪減行政院也不能任意刪減那什麼情況下可以刪減這個有辦法 有規定"},{"start":9378.356,"end":9388.284,"text":"那個秘書長我想您應該知道中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款金額不得少於修正實施前一年度的預算編列數"},{"start":9389.69,"end":9416.322,"text":"那得三減補助款的情形是採正面表列也就是第四條違反限制規定第五條執行效能執行情形開源節流的績效以及第六條拒絕提供補助經費之用還有第十二條有依法得徵收之裁員而不徵收等都是具體明確的"},{"start":9417.643,"end":9443.919,"text":"地方政府有為師的情形行政院才可以來不予補助或是刪減補助款所以這個目前我們看到立法院依法行政立法院不能刪減的我們沒有一個委員刪減但是行政院卻把應該要通案刪減的636億"},{"start":9447.458,"end":9470.176,"text":"只用在全部就應該要在各部會分攤這636億通案刪減是要在行政院各部會去分攤的但是行政院的決定就是只針對地方政府報復民眾懲罰民眾本席在這邊要請教秘書長這個決策是誰決定的誰決定的"},{"start":9478.857,"end":9506.51,"text":"奧委員中央政府對於地方政府的支持是一定的否則我們不會不用編了兩千五百億請不要浪費我時間我時間已經沒了請問這個把這個法定的支出不得刪減除了它有違規的情況但是現在行政院卻把這六百三十六億要在各部會分攤的全部用在這"},{"start":9507.671,"end":9536.126,"text":"只分攤在地方政府的這個一般性補助款本席想請教這到底是誰的決策其他的中央政府已經被刪減了一千四百多億而且是在大院的這個我想請教我請教您的就是是誰決定把這六百三十六億就用在這個兩千五百零一億的一般性補助款是誰決定是卓榮泰院長還是賴清德總統"},{"start":9538.026,"end":9554.784,"text":"是誰決定的他會提出可能的一些救濟的方法所以是主計總署之前對立法院在去年告訴我們這個是法定義務之初絕對不能刪減所以你說是主計總署"},{"start":9560.89,"end":9565.475,"text":"主計總署也是提議吧 主計總署跟我們講不能刪 結果跟行政院來提議要刪減"},{"start":9579.505,"end":9586.908,"text":"哇我們的政府可以這樣子違法亂紀違規沒有如果沒有那個236億的這個空白刪除的話就不會發生這樣的情況636億這一塊他本來過去也都有通案刪減"},{"start":9596.511,"end":9613.616,"text":"就是要行政院來立法院大家一起協調或是行政院你應該各部會刪減你不做你全部加諸在民眾然後呢影響我們人民的通案刪減這個939億我們行政院也沒有發表所以現在是"},{"start":9621.118,"end":9645.964,"text":"主計總署跟行政院提案那誰最後決策嘛誰最後拍板定案的嘛卓院長嗎不敢講卓院長所以主計總署這個主計長很有問題對立法院不能刪的行政院來刪而且違反自己訂出來的規定那所以現在這個一般性補助款"},{"start":9648.184,"end":9674.435,"text":"兩千五百零一億呢就要轉嫁到地方影響了我們學童的交通老人家的生活我們托育的照顧我們長照的照顧公共的醫療消防建設文化活動等等等所以全部都加租到地方那本席最後要再詢問我們秘書長今年通過的總預算是不是歷史新高"},{"start":9677.231,"end":9701.566,"text":"歷史由始以來最高的嘛對結果通過預算歷史新高再告訴我們自愛難行ok自愛難行的部分你當初的因為這個各部會他的這個溝通我們沒辦法管到那麼細但是我們希望未來很多東西你要加強溝通很多沒有溝通啊好那"},{"start":9704.42,"end":9706.744,"text":"接著最後本席要說我們這個"},{"start":9711.243,"end":9736.004,"text":"整個的通案刪減636億如果在中央各部會來分攤的話大概佔我們中央政府總預算2%左右就2%那就像一個大水庫你大水庫理論你這樣子分攤可是結果我們的行政院竟然就是轉嫁到地方轉嫁到地方結果造成地方20幾%的一個衝擊"},{"start":9738.925,"end":9762.962,"text":"所以我們不希望我們的政府治理 中央執政不要情緒失控人有情緒失控所以會有錯誤的言行但是不要因為這個我們合理的刪減希望不要浮邊爛邊還有很多績效不好的我們稍微遵截經費結果不高興結果"},{"start":9763.903,"end":9775.3,"text":"這個中央政府整個情緒失控拿民眾開刀拿民眾當肉票這種報復行為不行最後最後本席請教這個有沒有可能收回陳敏的可能"},{"start":9777.79,"end":9794.258,"text":"因為現在按照刪除的決議這個636億就是一定要刪除我們提出的故意也沒有通過636億你們各部會去分攤嘛各部會有很多的經費去分攤各部會已經被刪除掉了1400多億了你參考一下去年的預算"},{"start":9803.598,"end":9823.445,"text":"對不對今天你比去年還多出兩千億所以你參考一下去年的預算好不好如果其他的部分可以刪減的部分在大院在審議的過程幾千個提案就會被刪掉所以反正現在整個社會要了解這個是行政院一意孤行的結果"},{"start":9824.305,"end":9835.04,"text":"一意孤行然後專門拿民眾開刀拿民眾當肉票這一塊其實我想這個社會自由公論好 謝謝好 請正天朝委員"},{"start":9858.802,"end":9880.228,"text":"主席 請祕書長好 請祕書長這位好祕書長好 辛苦了謝謝這個這一次啊114年度的預算的通案三檢當初的提案在這裡民眾黨所提的提案通案三檢從這個每一個列舉的"},{"start":9884.66,"end":9912.982,"text":"這個項目來看通案刪減的其實都是什麼都是一般維持費這些不影響人民錢益的部分是要讓所有的中央機關要能夠不要亂用人民的納稅錢最主要的用意在這裡而民主黨你很清楚你最清楚你過去也在國安會待過"},{"start":9914.631,"end":9943.246,"text":"這次為什麼會產生這種問題就是因為立法院韓國瑜院長主持朝野這個協商要針對整個總預算案要如何審查你本來可以在韓院長主持的協商的時候可以做說明的你本來有機會說明是誰沒說了這個說明就是柯建民總召"},{"start":9944.076,"end":9963.216,"text":"在那個場合不斷不斷地說大罷免就造成了你沒有機會在那個場合說明所以也就這樣這個原因最主要在這裡好我們看當初立法院通案刪減的決議"},{"start":9964.935,"end":9992.126,"text":"其中因刪減另已補足的科目是指一般維持費不包括法律義務支出也不包括獎補助費也不包括義備金而且因刪減另已補足這四個字是針對中央機關是針對中央機關所要資用的經費你怎麼可以去刪減地方政府的經費"},{"start":9993.494,"end":10014.773,"text":"所以這個部分是一個非常嚴重的一個錯誤然後我們看這個行政院114年5月16號函給各地方政府修正114年度中央對地方政府一般性補助款結果一砍百分之二十幾總共砍了663億我們看"},{"start":10020.799,"end":10046.39,"text":"中央對地方政府的一般性補助款他的法源依據就這個辦法然後法源是財政收支方法第三十條第二項以及地方制度法第69條第三項這是法律所明定這裡面包含警政消防人員尤其是第二條第二條的第三項的第三目"},{"start":10047.694,"end":10070.025,"text":"就是法例民定地方政府要配合的部分法例民定是國民年金法農民健康保險條例老年農民福利暫行條例中低收入戶老人生活津貼發起辦法這個是法例民定地方政府也要去資用的經費要發要資用然後透過怎麼來源經費來源從哪裡來就是從"},{"start":10078.294,"end":10106.455,"text":"中央對地方政府的一般性補助款這是這樣來的這是法律所明定的這裡面寫的很清楚第三條第一項一般性補助款補助事項社交研這個教育社會福利等等就是剛才的這些條文啊就是這些法律所明定的所以他是法律義務支出啊這法律義務支出怎麼可以刪減"},{"start":10107.878,"end":10136.656,"text":"你怎麼可以去刪減你應該去刪減你的一般維持費是中央所要支用的這些經費好我們看行政院主計總署在去年8月行政院主計總署去年8月送到立法院的中114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法例義務支出明細表"},{"start":10138.865,"end":10165.919,"text":"這不是我們立法院自己做的是行政院送來的依法律義務支出的明細表裡面就包含了一般性補助款兩千五百零一一千多寫得非常清楚所以從剛才的法規法例來看包括自己行政院自己也認為這是法律義務支出這是符合的應該的"},{"start":10167.81,"end":10197.252,"text":"我們再看民主進步黨在1月21號的臉書2501億一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不能變動的中央法定支出連民進黨的中央黨部都認為這個當然是你們提供給他們的當天啊然後呢這裡面還寫到中央政府可用的預算還有一兆元啊"},{"start":10199.86,"end":10227.407,"text":"扣除那些刪減了之後扣除統商的刪減了之後還有可用的一兆元一兆元你不用不是不刪結果你去刪對地方政府的一般性補助款而且涉及到教育社福的經費怎麼那麼狠啊好好回去啊秘書長這不是你做的決定回去跟卓榮泰院長做說明好接下來"},{"start":10230.086,"end":10257.698,"text":"基本設施維持費啊你們也把它凍結3億2千萬3億2千萬的理由是什麼也是這個636億636億地方一般性補助款你扣了刪了還要再刪原住民的基本設施維持費這是對原鄉的這些基本財政的這個一個協助啊"},{"start":10258.7,"end":10286.874,"text":"那不是超過636億嗎對不對變成600超過啊超過636億啊你們的理由也是這個所以這個部分民主黨趕快趕快要求行政院主席總署基本設施維持會趕快撥款另外建法補償你剛講的是什麼這是第一個行政院院長"},{"start":10288.271,"end":10317.75,"text":"同意要辦追加預算 禁法補償不足的23億9千多萬立法院也做了決議要辦追加預算 研民會依立法院的提案在今年的3月已經把這個追加預算已經送到立法院所以行政院 趕快秘書長 這個你可以做決定了"},{"start":10318.96,"end":10334.353,"text":"趕快把進法補償23億9千多萬這個跟什麼 跟總預算無關啦 跟你事先無關啦這追加預算跟總預算無關啦不要再用這個理由啊可以嗎 秘書長從3萬塊變成6萬塊 這個我們一定會補足他"},{"start":10344.293,"end":10371.833,"text":"一定會讓原民有這樣的需要的人一定領得到這是法律義務民主黨如果齁如果我們沒有研會齁根本來不及啊你要辦追加預算要到11月才那個審議啊9月10月都是總質詢啊所以你趕快送來送來還來得及在7月底以前啊完成追加預算好不好"},{"start":10372.688,"end":10379.411,"text":"我來表達好 謝謝好 請黃國昌委員謝謝主席 麻煩有請秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":10400.058,"end":10427.421,"text":"黃委員好民進黨好,我今天早上在隔壁的交通委員會問問希希的代理主有一個問題,他沒辦法回答他說他不是他的全責範圍因為去年周鴻泰說11月19號,你看一下他說我們希望在12月以後通傳會能夠有新的名單出來那去年年底是沒有提出來啦"},{"start":10428.749,"end":10446.954,"text":"今年四月說希望月底以前能夠提出來還是沒有提出來五月二號說人選已經確定可能下週公佈名單今天已經五月幾號了所以現在行政院新的主委名單什麼時候要送來班委我想我可以跟院長"},{"start":10456.88,"end":10475.539,"text":"所以除了他以外也沒有人可以回答這個問題嗎?卓榮泰剛好總諮詢的時候答應大家4月底要送來總諮詢結束以後人不用來立法院講話不算話"},{"start":10477.148,"end":10494.733,"text":"一個行政院院長可以講話不算話到這種程度喔立法委員也問不到他ACC代理主委很無奈秘書長也很無奈大家都很無奈整個國家沒有人拿卓榮泰有辦法所以你今天的立場就是回去轉達給卓榮泰"},{"start":10503.154,"end":10513.138,"text":"好 希望今天左榮泰看是不是責成行政院發一個新聞稿講話不算話一而再再而三跳票跳票成這個樣子也問不到他本人大家都拿他沒辦法現在左榮泰是覺得自己是太上皇是不是愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹第二個問題"},{"start":10531.618,"end":10546.162,"text":"之前行政院送來立法院審議的NCC主委加委員總共四個人嘛主委因為NCC組織法的修正已經不合格了剩下的三個人行政院也要撤回名單嗎我問過議事處了 到目前為止沒有撤回但是我現在有點看不懂總統他說他要提出一個新的名單出來"},{"start":10557.157,"end":10582.541,"text":"聽起來好像不是只有主委但舊的名單也還沒有撤回去所以現在行政院送到本院來請求本院審議的那份名單除了主委已經喪失法定資格以外另外三位行政院現在的立場是什麼希望立法院處理希望的話我就請交通委員會排案了"},{"start":10583.595,"end":10595.3,"text":"不希望的話什麼時候會名單要撤回去還是你也不知道對我實際狀況我是不知道但是據我了解應該會更替"},{"start":10596.923,"end":10619.723,"text":"那如果要更替的話行政院負責任一點好不好先把這個名單撤回去嘛我會轉到該撤不撤放在立法院裡面如果連行政院秘書長都搞不清楚狀況的話那全中華民國沒有幾個人搞得清楚狀況只有一個人搞得清楚狀況就是一而再再而三跳票的卓榮泰"},{"start":10623.117,"end":10652.193,"text":"今天委員啊大家關心的另外一個事情啊喔對我再插一句話行政院委員要撤回動作要快意思表示要清楚否則的話我要請交通委員會開始排案了直接公聽會排下去三位沒有撤回名單的請來立法院這三位有沒有跟行政院院長表達詞意還是你也不知道這個我不知道你也不知道"},{"start":10656.223,"end":10681.314,"text":"好來 下一個事情就看你知不知道了今天非常多委員關心的事情我們在通刪對象是中央各機關及其所屬地方補助款一毛都沒有刪地方補助款一毛都沒有刪地方補助款按照你們行政院自己發函給立法院的這是法定義務支出"},{"start":10683.086,"end":10707.523,"text":"卓恩泰是什麼時候決定他要去刪地方補助款的這個你知不知道他什麼時候決定的這個是主計總署他們想了各種各種的方法以後所以是主計總署的主計長建議的是嗎什麼時候提出這個建議主計總署送上來的沒有錯什麼時候送上來的我具體的講啦今天這麼多委員"},{"start":10709.341,"end":10726.941,"text":"提出質詢卓榮泰違法濫權之處已經非常清楚了接下來要進行責任追究的部分那既然是要進行責任追究的部分誰做這個決策誰要負責嘛主席總署什麼時候提這個主意給行政院的"},{"start":10728.437,"end":10738.885,"text":"這個你也不知道嗎那我要回去查一下你要回去查一下書面回覆可以嗎可以好第一個主席總署什麼時候上文給行政院"},{"start":10740.154,"end":10768.205,"text":"建議這樣子做請行政院書面回覆而且連主計總署上的文一定提供可以嗎我來瞭解一下可以提供嗎要問一下主計總署我再瞭解一下這應該不是什麼國家機密吧第二個主計總署上來了以後卓榮泰什麼時候決定要對地方的一般補助款這個法定義務支出動手的什麼時候做的決定"},{"start":10772.113,"end":10794.852,"text":"我剛剛提到這個我沒有了解 我要回去了解OK 沒關係啦 今天行政院秘書長來我問了幾個都是行政院執掌相關的事項啦那顯然連秘書長對於行政院院長做了很多決策相關的時間點也沒有辦法充分的了解 這沒關係會後提供就好了"},{"start":10795.592,"end":10820.934,"text":"最後一個問題本院如果通過決議要求你們更正這個違法的狀況把該給地方政府的一般補助款補足行政院會不會遵守立法院的決議還是行政院打算我就是要硬幹到底你立法院做什麼決議我行政院也沒有要鳥你們如果立法院做這個決議行政院會不會遵守"},{"start":10823.045,"end":10844.98,"text":"我們現在的做法就是遵照立法院總預算的三讀的決議在辦理錯你現在的做法完全不是按照立法院總預算三讀的決議來辦理你去對一下啦113年中央政府總預算案通過的通案的決議跟114年通案的決議你就會清楚看得出來嘛"},{"start":10846.421,"end":10859.19,"text":"113年通案的決議還有刪給地方政府的補助114年的決議一個字都沒提到而且明確的就講中央各機關及其所屬行政院"},{"start":10860.393,"end":10878.726,"text":"行政院要繼續凹 那個是行政院的事情我現在只問一個簡單的問題本院如果做出了決議要求你們把違法 苛扣還給地方政府的一般補助款補足行政院會不會遵守還是你也不知道 要回去請示著龍派我沒有辦法表示說這個還沒有發生的事情還沒有辦法表示 我只講一個基本的原則"},{"start":10888.459,"end":10891.641,"text":"如果台灣還是憲政民主的國家如果台灣還是憲政民主的國家當國會做了這樣的決議的時候請行政院請行政院尊重國會的決議改正你們過去的錯誤也拜託秘書長把今天在這邊聽到各個委員質詢強烈的意見帶回去給卓榮泰可以嗎"},{"start":10919.881,"end":10926.443,"text":"好 謝謝好 請翁小林而言有請秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":10944.452,"end":10960.371,"text":"欧文好是秘书长好我想今天刚刚很多委员都已经问了您有关于就是这个行政院在去年在送114年度中央政府总预算案的时候那个时候有附带一个114年度的"},{"start":10961.111,"end":10988.006,"text":"中央政府总预算案编列依法律15支出明细表一份也就是这一份那这一份呢因为先前已经有些委员有问了那我只想要问您请教您就是说这一份明细表它的法律意义是什么依照这份明细表里面所列的这些预算这些项目对不起我刚拿错了就是依照"},{"start":10991.121,"end":10998.383,"text":"这个明细表里面所列的这些预算项目它的意义是什么是可以任意删减的吗"},{"start":10999.451,"end":11026.182,"text":"可以任意不執行嗎我是不是請主席總書的同仁說明一下好 可以 請跟委員報告一下委員公文上面的依法利益物支出其實是我們在審查預算的過程當中的分類那為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是因為說如果被歸為依法利益物支出的話代表說我們在審查預算的過程當中必須要去注意說這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的"},{"start":11026.662,"end":11045.233,"text":"可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的這個標準跟數額那以這個一般性補助款來講的話在地制法跟財務法只有規定說中央要著於補助沒有規定說數額是多少所以說這個預算裡面是估計的數字是有彈性的空間我想這是你們自己列出來的支出明細表裡面每一項都有先聽我說"},{"start":11053.597,"end":11082.124,"text":"这个部分是你每一项都有清楚的列出那个数额数字那么不仅仅是针对一般的补助款然后甚至包含像是这个这个征补什么基金拨补基金然后对于社会福利津贴补助等等都在这份明细表里面那么现在本席质疑的就是我们已经立法院经过三读通过各项"},{"start":11083.504,"end":11106.655,"text":"這個依照法律義務支出的這個經費那麼通過了這些經費它的意義是什麼這個經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算它的意義是什麼報告委員現在就是說這個自行3.636也是在這個法定預算之前的這個法定預算我現在問你經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼請問秘書長意義是什麼"},{"start":11110.387,"end":11133.663,"text":"報告委員因為在三讀通過以後要我們自行刪減636那我們就是按照這個決議現在的問題很清楚經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算法定預算我不是指那6361所有的法定預算的項目它是不是概念上在法律的解釋上它叫措施性法律"},{"start":11134.844,"end":11151.943,"text":"竟然是措施性法律通过它就具有什么法律的拘束力它就不需要去执行换句话说行政院没有权利不执行也没有这个权利不按照通过的预算表去核发这些经费"},{"start":11153.764,"end":11180,"text":"今天因為對於6361的解釋我們剛已經講很清楚在我們中央我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及他的所屬機關不涵蓋到地方政府剛剛黃國昌委員這個部分已經講很清楚了我也不勞煩這個秘書長您再重複一次因為你們的法律借鑒是錯誤的我們刪的是中央政府的預算那接下來我想要提出"},{"start":11182.983,"end":11205.921,"text":"中央政府及所屬機關中央政府就是說好我接下來要問的是另外一個問題在這次行政院有提出針對中央政府總預算申請釋憲那麼請問你們在申請釋憲之前你們有徵詢過司法院考試院的意見嗎他們有同意你們要提出申請釋憲嗎"},{"start":11210.269,"end":11229.097,"text":"據我了解應該是會有溝通但是實際狀況不是我去溝通我就沒有辦法聊是不是有這樣的情況我在這裡跟秘書長報告我昨天有問了對不起禮拜一的這個質詢質詢司法院司法院的王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢"},{"start":11230.714,"end":11247.292,"text":"沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢所以行政司法院跟考試院我認為他們可能也不見得有接受到行政院有徵詢他們意見要不要針對他們的預算一起去申請釋憲既然你們現在已經申請釋憲了我接下來想要問的問題就是說如果說"},{"start":11253.676,"end":11267.786,"text":"因為柯建民總召說假設這個大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的那麼總預算將案源編列使用請問主計處還有運輸長是如柯總召這麼說嗎假設"},{"start":11275.588,"end":11302.179,"text":"這個我們的這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部的違憲那接下來是要怎麼樣的處理就要按照 已經執行執行完畢的預算我們就要依照這個大法官的解釋來辦理所謂大法官解釋就是有可能退回重審啊假設他退回給立法院重審請問主席我們這時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":11304.534,"end":11307.856,"text":"我們是要重新審過嘛我們每一項預算重新審過對不對這個還是要看大法官到時候好我要講就是說你們必須要去講清楚這個預算退回立法院重審那代表說我們有可能就現行的預算刪減的更多或是凍結的更多你們現在已經正在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回"},{"start":11333.052,"end":11351.394,"text":"我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎道法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這些都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到道法官有正確的"},{"start":11352.595,"end":11382.095,"text":"现在大法官的做法非常有可能那就站在你们民进党政府这一边所以我要讲就是说因为过去从来没有针对过这个总预算案来申请事先甚至我认为大法官都不应该受理都不应该受理总预算案的事先案但他们现在还没有处理可是我觉得这个问题很严重主计总书还有甚至审计部都应该要先讲清楚如果说是这个预算退回立法院重审我们要怎么样审法"},{"start":11383.155,"end":11403.169,"text":"还有就是审当然退回我们立法院重审我们一定会全部重新审不会这个按照你们行政院的意然后这都不审或是按照全部你们立法院行政院所提出来的预算原编列项目然后就完全的放水同意这是不可能的中间如果说有任何的预算经费有变化行政院的"},{"start":11405.717,"end":11429.37,"text":"你們有想出來要怎麼解決嗎主計處還有審計部要怎麼解決嗎我希望這個秘書長這裡可以給我一份報告好嗎你們既然提出了釋憲案就應該要對後續的這個可能會產生的問題要有所因應這個提出因應策略可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告好不好下禮拜下禮拜三之前那就麻煩你們好請張棋幹委"},{"start":11461.476,"end":11463.657,"text":"請 秘書長秘書長張維豪這邊你們刪了 砍了這個地方的補助款不只是違法亂七根本就是不顧人民的死活秘書長你應該知道嘛你現在砍掉是什麼預算這地方補助款是什麼事社會福利預算欸照顧最弱勢的長輩跟小孩"},{"start":11492.591,"end":11515.386,"text":"教育地方的基礎建設有些甚至是救命錢你們怎麼砍得下手呢636的空白就不會發生這樣的事636為什麼是空白你剛才說636沒辦法砍沒辦法捅山這裡面有兩個很重要的原則我覺得你們一直在扭曲一直在造謠我先給你一個個案636"},{"start":11518.539,"end":11541.309,"text":"自行調整這個在第一年來通商的預算要行政院自己調整每年都有嘛對不對第一個每年都有這是第一個原則第二個你們在喊636你沒辦法處理我給你一個可以處理的案子同樣是民進黨執政2002年總統什麼人陳水北嘛行政議長"},{"start":11543.042,"end":11556.611,"text":"張慶雄 同樣是民進黨執政那一年要行政院去自行調整要三月多少錢?658億比例的636更加多耶那一年有沒有調整好?那一年解決啦為什麼陳水扁可以賴清德不行為什麼張慶雄可以處理總統他不行你們根本就是違法亂計啊"},{"start":11571.363,"end":11576.326,"text":"第一個每一年都有通商要你自行調整第二個你的金額也不是最大的現在更可惡的你們還去砍那個跟人民最有關係的上次我已經罵你們罵一頓了你們在砍勞工的退休金"},{"start":11593.612,"end":11620.537,"text":"靠從罕見疾病健保的這個錢我說你們從政久了什麼 心變硬變黑了是不是你那天我就跟你們講人民相關的錢一碼錢都不能砍你要砍那時候從你們特別費開始嘛先砍自己的啊特別費是零了對啊特別費我那時候就講你們人民的事情不重視你們砍人民的錢從你們開始嘛所以我那天我就主張特別費從總統一直到行政院長到部委首長先砍嘛後來很客氣啊"},{"start":11624.369,"end":11647.686,"text":"有些砍了全部,有些砍了六成而已你們做不完,憑什麼頂頭沒配拿這個錢,去請客啊,送禮啊當然要砍啊,這一天更加生氣了現在砍,那時候砍什麼健保,勞退的這個錢現在弄到砍的是社福的預算,你們怎麼砍得下去啊你們有沒有天良,有沒有良心啊"},{"start":11649.5,"end":11655.981,"text":"好啦,我今天已經很清楚跟你講了回去跟總統跟行政院長講以前的陳水扁可以做張靜雄可以處理,憑什麼中泰跟賴清德處理不來那你說找不到錢,我幫你找錢你當過國發會主委國發基金農會要落鹹中,那你怎麼沒錢國發基金去投資聯合再生虧損多少八四了啦"},{"start":11680.643,"end":11698.654,"text":"投資了 如心牛仔褲 虧損了多少12.38千載交通亦來亦去啦現金依然沒錢更何況你今年還是歷年來卻薪高的將近三兆的預算欸 你們很窮你們砍那個最弱勢的地方政府接下來我要跟你談 違法亂紀在哪裡"},{"start":11707.538,"end":11716.061,"text":"這是明明先過我剛剛已經跟你開宗明義講了以前有例子你們本來就要解決問題你們不解決結果現在砍了人民救命錢我們在審查預算的時候看下一張要你去通刪歷年來都這樣嘛不只今年你去翻以前要通刪的通案刪減的按鈕刪的是誰中央各機關及所屬"},{"start":11736.544,"end":11758.851,"text":"你到底有沒有看到有地方補助這是第一個第二個地方補助款我們省的時候一毛錢也沒有刪啊第三個才化法三十條不能比上一年度減少你三個都違反了耶第四個也是很離譜的"},{"start":11760.629,"end":11776.998,"text":"地方補助款你在前一年的八月份你就要通知他對不對你做國會主席要顧這必須定 背後對不對前一年八月你跟人家講各個縣市已經編好了經過各個地方議會通過了因為立法院刪掉了我們也沒辦法"},{"start":11777.663,"end":11784.727,"text":"你為什麼一直在扣這個立法院刪掉立法院從法內傳一層面要刪的是中央政府跟首屬各機關更明確的補助款一毛錢沒有砍對不對第三個財務法還有那條線在那邊你怎麼會講是立法院砍的"},{"start":11795.008,"end":11806.937,"text":"所以你們行政院砍的 大家看什麼是你行政院砍的而且就不能砍這一筆嘛你要砍的我剛剛跟你講啦上次我跟你講砍特別費 砍了嘛 對不對今天我就更明確跟你講 國發基金浪費的錢這是為什麼要砍這636第一個膨脹太多嘛歷史有史以來最高的你比去年一下子膨脹了8.2%地市突破3兆耶當然要砍啊"},{"start":11822.628,"end":11836.557,"text":"而且浪費那麼多 批量那麼多你應該是從你的國發基金浪費的地方去砍嘛你怎麼砍人民咧砍地方政府咧國發基金的預算很少沒有636億沒有636 你現在最少也一年八月能走對不對浪費我剛剛已經練了一百多億給你聽了吧我們現在要稅出預算那636為什麼2002年張建雄可以找得到你們找不到"},{"start":11852.284,"end":11875.933,"text":"我們也很無奈要回去找不是要無奈你回答我從政的初衷是什麼你一個年輕的學生買了一百萬的行政業我們為什麼會給2500億給地方政府原先的預算就是要支持地方政府但是有了636這樣的空白預算我們其他的已經已經砍掉了1400多億所以"},{"start":11880.586,"end":11896.244,"text":"所以這個也是為什麼我講無奈的立法院很清楚當初為什麼要這個通案的刪減我告訴你有史以來都有2002年還比你多那為什麼要這樣刪第一個你膨脹太快第二個你有浪費跟弊案嘛我今天都很明確跟你講國發基金是其中一部分嘛"},{"start":11897.645,"end":11915.16,"text":"2002年他也去找到錢嘛你有潛力可行你怎麼反而回過頭去砍一個罪不應該砍的不只是違法你現在摸著良心講你摸著良心講你現在砍的那個地方補助社福的預算"},{"start":11916.081,"end":11932.074,"text":"你這樣怎麼對得起那些長輩 對得起那些小孩教育的費用耶 地方建設的基礎建設耶二十幾年來只有2002年跟今年發生而已表示這種狀況 它是不尋常的不尋常 那為什麼2002年可以解決為什麼你沒辦法解決"},{"start":11934.612,"end":11956.233,"text":"你給主計長來報告你們提出了某些解決方案啊不是完全不行欸最重要是你浪費了你的弊案你要處理嘛現在這兩個大問題你自己沒有反省去解決真的要砍掉浪費跟弊案的錢第二個你去砍的最不應該砍的錢嘛不知道你摸著良心你砍的是人家"},{"start":11957.406,"end":11964.108,"text":"攸關他們說長輩跟年輕人 社福的預算欸 教育的預算欸基礎建設的預算欸 你怎麼可以砍這筆預算咧我們也很無奈你無奈 你要去解決問題嘛 對不對回到初期 如果各地方政府有需要的時候 我們會協助各地方政府如果有需要 我們會協助"},{"start":11981.284,"end":12003.996,"text":"協助 這個是在法定上應該給的錢嘛你們不應該砍 就還給人家啊什麼叫協助人家現在就告你們了嘛現在連蔣萬安都說提行政訴訟嘛 對不對立委都當場都檢舉了嘛我們刻後罪 刻後罪嘛 我們就追究你們責任好啦 秘書長 我做一個結論啦人在公門好休閒 今天包括主席總署"},{"start":12005.868,"end":12011.272,"text":"你說租界主計長是新來的 為台南起來你們主計總署都這麼資深 那麼悠揚的官員對不對你們去看看以前的個案怎麼處理的每一年的通商都可以處理 2002年可以處理你們主計長如果是新來的 你們有資深的 你們要幫他解決問題啊我做一個結論啦 回到初心"},{"start":12031.291,"end":12037.033,"text":"回到初心人在公門好修行不要違法亂紀更不要對不起人民謝謝好請張雅琳委員我剛真的在後面等很久呢好請秘書長還有人權處但呃我想先請秘書長好了人權處等一下齁好秘書長"},{"start":12064.592,"end":12078.721,"text":"因為我剛剛聽在下面我覺得有蠻多可能要闢謠一下啦那個秘書長要不要先簡單說一下特別費你還剩多少啦他一直說你要去他一直說你們拿去請客啊吃飯送禮啊來你們特別費平常是做什麼的"},{"start":12079.381,"end":12094.605,"text":"特別費大部分是同仁假如有額外的就是幫我們做一些事情我們是獎勵他還有逢年過節的時候我們也會給同仁一些額外的獎勵有一點犒賞同仁絕大部分都是這樣子還有就是說"},{"start":12098.186,"end":12111.746,"text":"如果有婚喪喜慶我們必須要送花花籃就像是立法委員韓國瑜院長在我們可能生日的時候啊母親節的時候也會送我們一些禮物嘛就是特別費的費用啦所以你們現在還剩多少"},{"start":12113.039,"end":12129.976,"text":"他就是零了你就是零了嘛所以是沒有嘛已經刪掉了嘛對不對那剛剛還有講說就是我們這個我們怎麼刪救命錢我想我這邊我理解的啦但是秘書長可以幫我核對一下據我所知內政部裡面我們的空勤總隊的國內女廢是被刪了20%"},{"start":12134.16,"end":12148.11,"text":"還有他的國外旅費以及出國訓練費三減了15%其實都會消減影響了我們的飛行員的訓練還有一些維護的支援也會影響他的專業能力以及他可能沒有辦法有一些例行的會議嘛對不對這是救難"},{"start":12150.355,"end":12165.346,"text":"還有消防署的災後復原與消防訓練也都會受到限制這是我的理解啦是不只是內政部其他的部會也都一樣包括數位發展部他的業務費被砍掉了大概40%我們行政院總共5億的業務費被砍掉了2億"},{"start":12168.148,"end":12194.426,"text":"還有像是我之前一直非常在乎這個新南向新南向的預算嘛讓我們很多的小朋友的一些團體啊他們有機會可以不要只去中國可以去我們新南向的一些國家去做一些體育的交流據我所知這個經費也被刪減了是為誰刪的咧就是國民黨跟民眾黨聯手刪掉所以冤有頭債有主啦好不好當初你不要刪現在也不會發生這件事情所以這還是要回去就責攬擺啦好那接下來回到我自己原本的問題"},{"start":12208.871,"end":12222.796,"text":"我今天呢其實最主要是想要先問完文秘書長就是我一直都非常關心我們促轉基金的創新運用因為我認為他應該要更多的公司協力來支持我們民間關心這個議題的一些相關的行動"},{"start":12224.016,"end":12242.436,"text":"而不是去補貼我們一些公務部門的一些公務預算支出那其實我從去年開始進到立法院到現在我基本上在每次的總質詢或者是在上次的經濟委員會我也有去質詢過劉主委但我也有發現就是說11月21號院長主持的這個行政院推動轉型正義匯報也曾經做出決議要求國發會應該要去規劃我們的"},{"start":12245.7,"end":12266.146,"text":"促轉基金要來達成所謂公司協力而且要更友善民間的綜合性補助計畫可是我到目前都沒有看到具體的方案所以到底規劃進度是什麼行政院真的認同促轉基金應該要有更多的公司協力跟創新運用嗎我想問一下這個態度上"},{"start":12269.268,"end":12286.144,"text":"我們已經請國發會在研擬當中了實際的狀況沒關係我先請教一下秘書長就是說我們到底認不認同這件事情行政院是認同的好那接下來我就想要請問一下因為其實今年我們也頒了這個轉型正義階段性的一個政策重點的一個策定方案"},{"start":12286.984,"end":12301.753,"text":"對於促進轉型正義說要強化民主任性以及要做民間扎根社會有感那到底我們現在做了什麼我們有沒有開始做一些社會討論可不可以請人權處處長簡短的說明一下目前的進度"},{"start":12302.964,"end":12322.933,"text":"好謝謝委員關心這個事情那的確今年二月行政院發布了這個策進方案當中很重要的就是要扎根民間社會強化民主任性所以針對委員關心的促轉基金這個部分我們其實在去年底開始到今年三月大概就進行了"},{"start":12324.133,"end":12350.278,"text":"有限的預算規模底下我們也進行了一些社會溝通跟討論那在這個討論的過程其實一個部分是包含我們預計在接下來的匯報會提出有關促轉基金6月應該就要匯報了吧對不對半年嘛6月應該就要匯報了所以我們在6月的時候會提出你剛講聽起來已經做了一些社會溝通了嘛是所以在6月匯報我們會提出一個比較完整的計畫嗎是我們會提出一個促轉基金的策略計畫"},{"start":12351.098,"end":12374.072,"text":"那回扣到我們現在出版條例第七條五個法定用途那比較重要的是剛剛委員所關心的後面的機制那這個機制其實在去年的卓院長十一月的匯報有責成國發會在做研議那在目前我們所掌握到也就是在匯報的網站上面公開的今年一一四年的轉移增印的相關的業務規劃裡面國發會的確也把"},{"start":12377.81,"end":12398.801,"text":"目前第一季第三季相關的進度有把公司協力的這個活化的機制納入他們的工作而且但是因為其實我自己去問啦不管是我覺得國發會也好或是檔案局也好我會覺得資金的進度還是相當有限因為我不太確定這些社會討論的部分到底檔案局或是國發會有沒有去加入他們有沒有真的去了解"},{"start":12399.521,"end":12425.488,"text":"這個民間到底的一些期待或者是說他們到底希望的一個什麼樣建立一個什麼樣的友善機制我是不是那麼確定但我的感覺是似乎看起來都還是比較消極所以如果今天我們已經做了社會討論那接下來就是國發會跟我們這邊人權處要如何來把因為六月之後是不是這個接下來就是回到國發會了對不對那接下來這一段是要如何的去進行呢"},{"start":12427.696,"end":12448.546,"text":"我們因為這個策略計畫其實他搭配現在院作為基金的主管機關執行機關是國發會那比較主要是責成在檔案局所以的確在整個策略計畫發布的之前跟之後我們也需要再跟國發會做比較密切的溝通那委員關心社會討論的部分先前在跟國發會的"},{"start":12449.746,"end":12460.857,"text":"幾次的內部溝通當中他們也承諾說會把社會討論的一些相關的一些討論的過程會在他們整個公私協力的機制裡面納入"},{"start":12462.386,"end":12488.923,"text":"請問秘書長,這樣聽起來,我覺得還是希望秘書長行政院這邊應該要來更積極的去要求國發會要來落實這件事情那我也認為就是說,因為這個是不是可以請秘書長來要求我們的國發會跟人權處在兩週內提供一個你們現在做的一些規劃的報告跟進度到我的辦公室我們來了解一下這個事情好嗎?因為我們才能夠去確保說"},{"start":12491.885,"end":12517.464,"text":"是不是真的可以讓民間覺得他的可敬用性是高的然後這個部分的話就是是不是可以請秘書長這樣子去要求呢可以可以好那接下來就是在匯報的話也希望可以積極的在這個會議裡面去要求我們要這個相關國發會呢要積極的來去接下來因為下次匯報就是11月就是要積極的來去監督他們好嗎可以嗎謝謝可以可以"},{"start":12523.103,"end":12550.591,"text":"好 何欣雄 何欣雄 何欣雄委員不在王宏宏 王宏宏委員不在羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員不在蘇靜泉 蘇靜泉 蘇靜泉委員不在林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩委員不在鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在楊瓊 楊瓊 楊瓊瑩委員不在蔡玉宇 蔡玉宇 蔡玉宇委員不在好 那個各位委員登記發言委員處不在場者外區域均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員王宏威所提書面質詢列入紀錄�"},{"start":12554.208,"end":12579.48,"text":"書面質詢和為及答覆部分請相關單位一週內書面答覆並複製本會那我們現在進行討論事項一處理114年度中央政府總預算有關行政院預算凍結作案報告書面報告案紀律案請問各位委員是否均同意動之好"},{"start":12581.54,"end":12608.231,"text":"有意義有意義來不是啦我先請問一下喔各位委員我們總計有六案嘛大家對哪幾案有意義第一案不是不是總共我們先一起處理好不好六案我說我的第一案好第一案那再來咧還有咧我的也是第一案好那徵求各位委員23456是否均同意動之"},{"start":12610.387,"end":12629.851,"text":"好那我們現在我們來處理第一案好不好23456均同意動之那我們處理第一案那我們休息協商處理趕快趕快講好清楚民事長"},{"start":12654.71,"end":12667.462,"text":"秘書長 因為我喉嚨很痛 抱歉秘書長 我知道你不能夠決定這個事情但是我一定要把證據攤出來給大家看11月7號行政院 我們"},{"start":12669.088,"end":12678.867,"text":"所有的在野黨全部在行政院開會議然後呢院長親自簽名辦理追加預算予以致應這是原住民競發補償再來"},{"start":12685.638,"end":12699.128,"text":"11月10號 這個是行政院給我的公文禁法補償經費貴院朝野黨團跟本院會商決議採追加預算方式辦理"},{"start":12700.593,"end":12722.969,"text":"貴院朝野黨團於本院於113年11月7號會上決議所需的經費財追加預算方式辦理第二個配合禁法補償金發放的期程本院規劃在貴院下會期你這是1月份是上會期下會期就是現在"},{"start":12724.27,"end":12741.75,"text":"下會期配合發放作業期程本月規劃在貴月下會期也就是第十一屆第三會期辦理追加預算籌編事宜從頭到尾通通都告訴我們你們要用追加預算"},{"start":12743.198,"end":12763.282,"text":"現在你們卻答不出來要追加預算然後霸凌園民會要讓園民會自己去處理或者是你們在偷偷地塞錢給他幹嘛 我們原住民是小偷喔立法院三讀通過的法案我們叫正大光明地拿啊我們為什麼要這樣偷偷摸摸地拿那不是偷偷摸摸 你就追加預算啊我要請問你 追加預算有什麼困難"},{"start":12771.567,"end":12786.298,"text":"追加預算有什麼困難?追加 不對不起 跟市縣無關你不要在這邊欺騙大家我們是老立法委員 不是新的立法委員啦"},{"start":12787.901,"end":12811.441,"text":"你們不要再繼續這樣欺負原住民 我告訴你我們會找你們算帳的 我們不是小偷不是 這個六萬塊我們一定會做到會做到 本來就應該對不起 秘書長會做到 本來就是應該的你要用追加預算 你有那麼多的承諾"},{"start":12813.038,"end":12839.883,"text":"你有那麼多的承諾有那麼多的公文為什麼不用追加預算呢不要原住民要依法依法領六萬塊而且卓榮泰院長是怎樣自己簽名不認的自己簽名不認的行政院給我的公文你們也不認的啊現在是怎麼樣行政院是可以這樣依法亂記嗎"},{"start":12843.413,"end":12867.072,"text":"我絕對堅持秘書長 原住民要一個說法你們為什麼不用追加減預算為什麼 我們想聽這個為什麼給我們一個說法"},{"start":12881.121,"end":12896.56,"text":"好各位委員好各位委員第二案到第六案同意動之第一案我們繼續凍結另定其處理本次會議到此結束現在上會"},{"start":12899.871,"end":12902.113,"text":"可是我們沒有記錄原住民啊"},{"start":12919.649,"end":12921.191,"text":"這間餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":12957.329,"end":12981.384,"text":"這裡鋪了一堆的,喔,他們收了喔答目的理由啊,不是那個零碎零零雖然你第一雙零零雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷"},{"start":12991.116,"end":12993.058,"text":"中文字幕 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數位發展部部長黃燕南"},{"start":1832.788,"end":1857.193,"text":"及行政面工工程委員會主任委員陳金德等5月22日數位發展部部長黃燕南等主席許昭吉委員致解5月21日報告思想一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二處理114年度交通部主管預算凍結案計34案三處理114年度數位發展部主管預算凍結案計13案"},{"start":1859.958,"end":1870.326,"text":"是處理一百一四年度行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計期案決定報告事項二至四個案書面報告已送達均予以被查提報院會"},{"start":1873.719,"end":1899.425,"text":"討論事項一審查及處理一百一四年度交通部主管預算凍結案計十四案二審查及處理一百一四年度數位發展部主管預算凍結案計七案三處理一百一四年度行政院公安工程委員會預算凍結案計一案本人會議由交通部部長陳士凱等報告後藉由委員洪孟凱等二十七人提出質詢軍警部長陳士凱及相關人員分別予以答覆"},{"start":1900.545,"end":1928.027,"text":"決議一報告及詢問完畢二委員李坤澤等二人所提書面諮詢均列入紀錄並刊登公報三委員諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部、數位發展部、行政院公務工程委員會及相關機關盡數以書面答覆四討論四項一至三個案均同意動資提報委員會通過臨時提案二項五月二十二日討論四項一至二十審查資通安全管理法修正草案決議"},{"start":1930.178,"end":1942.161,"text":"1.並按審查完略,例如審查結果,明據審查報告,提報院會討論,院會討論前須交由黨團協商,院會討論時有許召集委員致詰,補充說明。2."},{"start":1942.161,"end":1950.043,"text":"本日通過資調次引述條文部分文字及法制用字,授權主席及議事員整理。"},{"start":1952.037,"end":1971.145,"text":"審查結果 第一張章名 第一條 第二張章名 第十二條 第十三條 第十五條第十九條 第三張章名 第二十二條 第二十三條 第二十六條第二十七條 第四張章名 第二十八條 第三十一條 第五張章名第三十三條字 第三十五條 均照行政委員體案通過"},{"start":1972.225,"end":1990.453,"text":"二 第二條除第二項修正外餘照行政院提案通過三 第三條含修正動議兩案第十條 第十一條 第二十五條及第三十二條均保留送院會處理四 第四條除徵訂第一項第五款外餘照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1991.133,"end":2016.112,"text":"五 第五條除第二項後段修正外餘照行政面提案通過六 第六條照委員黃建豪葛如君等所提修正動議通過七 第七條除第一項修正第三項修正外餘照行政面提案通過八 第八條除第一項及第二項均修正六項前段修正外餘照行政面提案通過九 第九條除第一項修正外餘照行政面提案通過"},{"start":2018.804,"end":2047.347,"text":"10.委員葛如君等提案第11條委員賴樂榮等提案及委員林俊憲等提案第3張章明委員羅美玲等提案第25條及委員林俊憲等提案第5張章明均不予採納11.第14條除第1項第1款及第2款均修正外餘照行字面提案通過12.第16條除第1項默劇修正第2項修正外餘照行字面提案通過13.第17條除第2項修正外餘照行字面提案通過"},{"start":2048.027,"end":2067.802,"text":"十四 第十八條除第二項修正 第三項修正外 余教行自明提案通過十五 第二十條除第一項制 第五項中特定均予以刪除 第六項修正外 余教行自明提案通過十六 第二十一條除第一項特定 予以刪除 第四項修正外 余教行自明提案通過"},{"start":2068.602,"end":2096.071,"text":"十七 第二四條除第二項修正除第三項修正第五項修正外 依照委員黃建豪 葛如君等所提修正動議通過十八 第二十九條造台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十九條通過十九 第三十條除第五款修正外 依照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三十條通過二十 委員邱若驊等十七人提案之"},{"start":2096.687,"end":2123.331,"text":"第19條及第21條均予以刪除通過附帶決議一項散會宣讀完畢好請問各位委員對議事錄有沒有意見有沒有好沒有謝謝現在我們來介紹在場的委員首先介紹洪孟楷委員邱若驊委員"},{"start":2125.236,"end":2126.276,"text":"今天我們列席"},{"start":2153.749,"end":2156.011,"text":"行政院主計處公務預算處專門委員王全凱先生基金預算處科長楊進儒"},{"start":2179.48,"end":2197.251,"text":"好接下來現在我們來先處理報告素項2有關113年度國家通信傳播委員會主管附屬單位既有15案的解凍案請議事委員員宣讀"},{"start":2205.086,"end":2228.06,"text":"報告事項二處理一百一三年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算凍結案計15案國家通訊傳播委員會函檢送通訊傳播監督管理基金一至十二一決議第一項專業服務費預算凍結十分之一案二決議第二項通訊傳播監理政策企劃"},{"start":2229.982,"end":2241.393,"text":"計劃預算凍結十分之一案三決議第三項基礎設施監理計劃預算凍結五百萬元案四決議第四項平台事業監理計劃預算凍結十分之一案五決議第五項傳播事務監理計劃預算凍結兩百萬元案六決議第六項網際網路傳播計劃預算凍結十分之一案"},{"start":2254.303,"end":2260.185,"text":"7.新增決議第一項旅運費預算凍結50萬元案8.新增決議第二項國外旅費預算凍結50萬元案9.新增決議第三項國外旅費預算凍結50萬元案10.新增決議第四項網際網路傳播計畫預算凍結"},{"start":2272.148,"end":2294.54,"text":"一百萬元案十一新增決議第五項通訊傳播監理案件訴訟費及法律諮詢費預算凍結十分之一案十二新增決議第一項基金用途預算凍結四百萬元案國家通訊傳播委員會函檢訊有限廣播電視事業發展基金十三至十五十三決議第一項有限電視偏鄉級數位化"},{"start":2295.16,"end":2317.514,"text":"普及發展與災害復建補助計畫預算凍結十分之一案十四決議第二項有限電有限廣播電四現況調查及服務品質提升計畫預算凍結十分之一案十五新增決議第一項有限電有限廣播電四現況調查及服務品質提升計畫預算凍結一百一十萬元案宣布完畢"},{"start":2319.107,"end":2343.136,"text":"好各位委員針對這些凍結案有沒有意見好沒有意見做以下的決定報告事項預算解凍案113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算案結議各案書面報告已送達經已被查提報宴會"},{"start":2345.572,"end":2357.384,"text":"好沒有意見嗎好謝謝各位來接下來進入本月會議的討論事項先說明相關程序討論事項依據為審查114年度"},{"start":2362.81,"end":2378.227,"text":"國家通信傳播委員會預算的解凍案兩案及繼續審查電信管理法修正草案解凍案將於詢答結束後處理"},{"start":2379.308,"end":2399.135,"text":"電信管理法修正草案因為本會議4月2日第5次會議已完成詢答因此本日不再進行詢答並以解凍案處理完畢後直接進行逐條審查"},{"start":2403.03,"end":2406.334,"text":"現在進行預算解凍案機關報告現在請國家通訊傳播委員會陳代主委報告"},{"start":2427.509,"end":2445.206,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生首先向在座各位委員對本會各項政策推動上的支持與策略表示誠摯謝誠有關本會113年度附屬單位預算及114年度單位預算"},{"start":2446.987,"end":2472.355,"text":"凍結決議十七案 本會以分別擬具書面專案報告函送大院在案 敬請參議院議案文書本次會議列有關報告事項十五案及討論事項二案現僅就討論事項二案 簡要說明如下一 凍結一一四年度一般行政中人事費徵務人員待遇預算七分之四部分"},{"start":2473.547,"end":2478.307,"text":"在委員不足額的情況下本會業務調整之各項因應措施重點"},{"start":2479.727,"end":2506.878,"text":"一修正相關規定維持基本運作分別在113年7月31日8月2日修正委員會議審議事項及授權內部單位辦理事項作業要點分成負責明細表委員會議一事要點二修正重點及現況當委員人數未達委員法定總額過半數時除一本會組織法第九條第二項規定不得授權之事項外"},{"start":2508.098,"end":2535.583,"text":"相关委员会议审议事项均授权由主任委员或代理主任委员召开既有委员组成的委员之一会议讨论后决定以维持基本会务运作目前本会处本会组织法第九条第二项规定不得授权之事项外均依规定授权由代理主任委员召开既有委员组成的委员之一会议讨论后决定相关委员会议审议事项以维持基本业务运作"},{"start":2536.443,"end":2540.987,"text":"二一四年度一般行政中基本行政工作維持費業務費刪減50%後並凍結10%"},{"start":2546.486,"end":2574.568,"text":"本會對於廣播電視法與衛廣法利害關係人權益的維護部分當今媒體資訊傳播迅速且多元可能發生錯誤報導而侵害個人權益的情況基於武器隊等原則廣電法規定定的利害關係人權益維護相關規定用於解決心靈自由與個人人格權的衝突問題而本項權力的發動者為權益受媒體內容侵害之利害關係人"},{"start":2576.431,"end":2601.024,"text":"本會為廣電媒體之行政監理機關無司法調查權故未介入調查私人紛爭現行廣電法賦予利害關係人要求更正答辯的權利並科與廣電業者執行義務若廣電業者未一線執行更正答辯或書面答覆本會使得依法何處廣電事業未落實利害關係人權益維護的行為"},{"start":2603.425,"end":2623.722,"text":"有關民眾意見反映涉及利害關係人權益維護的案件本會皆禁述在法定請求期限內告知利害關係人相關規定必立即向廣電業者主張更正答辯權利令衡量實務可行性及利害關係人權益保障衛廣法第44條"},{"start":2627.839,"end":2653.528,"text":"原衛廣事業需在20天內執行更正及提出書面答覆在大院110年修法已縮短為10天力求減少錯誤資訊對利害關係人造成之衝擊及傷害本會也定期舉辦相關研討會及座談會向業者宣導相關法令違規案件的分析以及更正達並規定的注意事項促請業者落實法尊"},{"start":2654.528,"end":2667.637,"text":"以上大院關切議題 本會以詳語說明 相關預算 懇請各位委員會議支持並同意動之 必須各項業務順利推動 謝謝好 謝謝我們陳主委的報告 來 接下來進行巡檔先宣告以下事項"},{"start":2678.993,"end":2697.002,"text":"巡打時間出席委員6分鐘 列席委員5分鐘 委員花園登記在10點30分截止各委員如果有臨時提案 請於10點以前提出 以便議事人員會診"},{"start":2700.483,"end":2713.508,"text":"暫時定為10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行來 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳代理主委好 那個陳代主委"},{"start":2733.381,"end":2743.473,"text":"本席對於預算也好或是各機關單位都是只有一致要求預算當用則用當審則審把錢花在刀口上比什麼都加重要這你認同嗎"},{"start":2744.839,"end":2772.593,"text":"認同好那可是很遺憾我覺得今天交通委員會我們審查NCC的這個解凍案報告在一開始的時候我們執政黨的委員居然也沒有在現場還剛剛還有不足三個人的一個情況還需要拜託我們在野黨委員回來坐在會場上才能夠來繼續下去我想不知道是說是連執政黨委員對NCC的預算都沒有那麼的重視嗎來代理主委你代理多久了"},{"start":2774.237,"end":2800.696,"text":"從去年12月1號到現在12月1號到現在是那本席過去也一直在關心我們NCC的委員名單到底什麼時候會出來你有沒有看到行政院院長怎麼說先前有說會在4月底左右會提出是那今天是5月28號5月底又一個月過去了名單在哪邊"},{"start":2805.32,"end":2819.856,"text":"有沒有找過你討論也沒有都沒有就一直讓你代理然後預算執政黨的委員也沒有那麼的重視來我們看一下報導"},{"start":2822.2,"end":2847.334,"text":"4月29號那個時候告訴我們全國國人NCC的人事最快明天提出也就是4月30號提出結果卓龍泰說本週沒問題啦4月29號那一週本週沒問題結果咧過了一個月了不要說本週沒問題本月都提不出來來 再來重提NCC委員名單本週提出人選再來"},{"start":2850.695,"end":2877.822,"text":"四月底NCC名單跳票左榮泰致歉 我不知道跟誰致歉因為這媒體引述的是你的照片人選說下週會公佈那到現在咧主委你的心情展現我們對於一個行政機關超然自主獨立的NCC的期待還是現在的行政院對於NCC不期不待沒有傷害"},{"start":2879.943,"end":2896.997,"text":"要怎麼國人相信你們可以超然獨立自主一個名單告訴我們從去年的7月31號主委任內已經到齊了12月2號我們修法再一次通過其實我們那時候修法也不是也不是"},{"start":2898.459,"end":2922.788,"text":"那個時候修法才應該要這樣遵守照理講其實我們已經講了當時的修法就是NCC委員不得再延任但是行政部門刻意鑽橋門鑽漏洞好 12月2號把你漏洞給補齊我們當時也講只要你提出專業合格的人選可受公眾公平送進來馬上交通委員會審查"},{"start":2924.048,"end":2944.498,"text":"有排案嗎 沒有排案 因為連送進來都沒有送進來 我們怎麼審查那現在4月底跳票 下週確定到現在5月底了 也沒看到所以我想你今天過來 除了這個解凍案以外應該也清楚明白 我們委員也會關心這件事情吧"},{"start":2945.857,"end":2970.531,"text":"結果過去這一個多月行政院長也沒有找你討論也沒有問說NCC現在運作到底良不良善你現在只有三位委員了你說不足法定人數很多重大的決策沒有辦法做包括你今天的解凍報告裡面決議不得授權事項很多的部分這一些都是需要有法定夠足額的委員才能夠執行才能夠推動是吧是"},{"start":2973.41,"end":3002.36,"text":"通訊傳播監理政策制定定義審議這麼重要重要結果現在因為行政院長沒有提人選不能做通訊傳播重要計畫方案審議考核這麼重要重要但因為現在行政院長沒提人選所以不能做網際網路傳播政策制定及審議這麼重要重要行政院長沒提人選所以不能做總共十大項都那麼重要的議題你們自己今天的解凍報告列出來"},{"start":3003.649,"end":3006.992,"text":"都不能做 為什麼就是因為四月跳票啊主委 代理主委國人要無奈還是你要無奈還是我們兩個都要無奈因為行政院長擺爛我相信大家都期待NCC能夠正常運作是啊"},{"start":3027.065,"end":3056.446,"text":"本席比您更期待為什麼因為還有很多事情需要NCC需要我們所謂超然獨立自主的機關來協助台灣社會不能空轉不能讓詐騙集團橫行不能讓相關的應該被管理被管制或者是協助輔導的機制停擺但現在NCC停擺是誰的問題是人選沒有出來的問題人選沒有出來的問題是因為名單跳票名單跳票是因為行政院長沒有送"},{"start":3060.038,"end":3087.988,"text":"來我請教NCC要空轉多久大家不知道但是之前有講說6月底以前會有37家的不管是有限無限未廣事業執照陸續到期那現在5月底了有幾家到期了上半年是37家會到期下半年是50家我知道啊但我是說像現在因為有一些是陸續到期嘛那現在有幾家到期了"},{"start":3088.921,"end":3116.614,"text":"應該接近應該30左右30家到齊了對 左右之前有講說如果是有線電視的話還有臨時執照的制度可以來使用但無線電視或者是未廣頻道的話是沒有辦法用臨時執照的所以有可能要跳頻因應或者是因為無法換照而無法正常播出那現在這30家裡面"},{"start":3119.834,"end":3140.649,"text":"消費者的權利視聽大眾的權益怎麼保障有線電視部分我們先前有處理過就是因為剛好法律上的會有一個剛好有協助的機制像有線電視的基本頻道要下架必須要經過委員會審議那現在委員會沒辦法組成所以他也沒辦法進行下架"},{"start":3142.37,"end":3165.69,"text":"所以要換帳沒有辦法換要下架也沒有辦法下你這樣等於是宣告跟所有的頻道業者也宣告說現在NCC就是無人看管時代大空窗時代大航海時代大擺爛時代大家要做任何事情反正現在因為人數不夠因為行政院長沒有提人選所以連下架也沒辦法下架大家來吧"},{"start":3166.911,"end":3171.217,"text":"擺爛吧我們是請業者繼續保障聽眾的權益來共度難關代理書委"},{"start":3177.62,"end":3197.842,"text":"是我想今天我抱著一個每一次質詢的時候我都用專業審查認真監督的立場準備很多資料你的解凍報告我也一無一失的看我還是強調預算花在刀口上我們沒有不解凍的理由但是你今天列出來這十大點"},{"start":3198.743,"end":3226.582,"text":"都是清楚明白告訴國人當NCC的名單不足當人員不足的時候是沒有辦法正常運行的而人員不足或者是說現在連名單都提不出來如果是因為所謂的陰謀論就是現在所謂的民進黨政府從上到下就是要等七月底罷免的投票罷免投票投完之後再來講所以人選就是不願意出來所以一片再一片三片四片"},{"start":3227.983,"end":3242.554,"text":"4月說提不出來 說本週提不出來 說本月底提不出來到現在有可能5月也不會再提那然後就讓你代理主委反正來這邊幾個委員輪番砲轟然後就這樣傳過水無痕那整個NCC停擺 整個我們有限無限未廣停擺"},{"start":3252.332,"end":3280.333,"text":"我們要的是這樣的社會嗎我們要的是這樣子的一個獨立自主超然的機關嗎所有NCC的同仁會不會覺得這樣抬不起頭啊行政院長這樣子對待你們連四位人選都不願意提出來立法院該監督該協助要審查的我們一定善盡審查的責任但是如果說連名單都提不出來然後主委"},{"start":3281.4,"end":3296.705,"text":"有沒有勇氣想要跟行政院長也講一聲停擺了同仁很辛苦名單呢能不能拜託幫我們社會大眾 閱聽大眾來跟行政院長講一聲有沒有這個勇氣實際適當有必要時我會跟院長報告但是相信資訊非常的透明流通已經晚了半年了還不算有必要"},{"start":3310.578,"end":3335.689,"text":"不是 先前他們你自己提出來報告這十大項都不能做還不算有必要那部分是上委員會沒辦法上委員會但上委員會前的程序我們都如實一起來進行就像跑100公尺 我們都跑到90公尺然後不充現然後看著別人一直充現充現就違法了充現就違法 你也知道誰讓你違法 行政院長啊"},{"start":3340.629,"end":3368.898,"text":"來 最後啦 再回來上一頁主委 代理主委 是我鄭重的要求你應該要有風骨 也要有責任約行政院長 直接跟行政院長報告你的名單在哪裡你講的人選下週公佈 到現在呢過了幾個下週一週 兩週 三週 四週 過了四個下週沒有公佈就沒有公佈要政治算計"},{"start":3370.612,"end":3390.324,"text":"要搞什麼大罷免不要拿NCC來開玩笑NCC有限無限未廣等相關的視聽大眾的權益不是讓你行政部門開玩笑的不是讓你民進黨政府拿來當罷免的籌碼的不是讓你們胡作非為的可以嗎謝謝委員謝謝洪孟愷委員執行現在請"},{"start":3399.562,"end":3424.022,"text":"黃國昌總召執行謝謝主席 麻煩有請代理主委陳代主委主委好 今天NCC所提出來的解凍報告 書面報告第一項"},{"start":3425.444,"end":3453.12,"text":"就是說有關於政務人員待遇被我們凍結七分之四的部分希望解凍要解凍的理由是什麼現在ACG應該有七個委員現在只有三個有四個現在人不知道在哪裡我們要促請行政院趕快把名單提出來所以凍結了七分之四因為沒有人可以領薪水"},{"start":3454.551,"end":3479.35,"text":"沒有人可以領薪水 凍結不是剛剛好嗎那現在你們要求解凍那我的問題就來了現在NCC有幾個委員根文報告當初的案由是說處警行政院是是是 現在NCC有幾個委員三位所以現在每個月就發三個NCC委員的薪水嘛 是吧是那你要解凍其他七分之四要幹嘛你錢要發給誰"},{"start":3483.666,"end":3509.421,"text":"因為當初預期隨時人 其他市民委員會補齊對啊 什麼時候會補齊這部分權責不在NCC這邊對啊 現在問題就來了啊我們的行政部門可以不負責任到人什麼時候補齊 不知道但是錢要先給我有這個道理嗎那個沒有資用也會回歸國庫"},{"start":3511.713,"end":3537.932,"text":"所以咧所以錢還是先給你沒有關係主要原因是因為那個案有觸景我們有做出觸景的一些作為做出了什麼觸景的作為我們發函給人事總署人事總署後來有轉給行政院然後呢然後就有4月份院長對外的一些意見好來我們來看一下我們的走動態當初是怎麼講的去年去年齁"},{"start":3540.739,"end":3567.753,"text":"11月19號卓榮泰說我們正緊鑼密鼓要有一份新的人選希望國會盡速通過這去年11月19號講的結果卓榮泰口中一份新的名單到現在完全沒看到主委剛剛說4月的時候因為你們有促請行政院院長"},{"start":3569.116,"end":3593.592,"text":"所以行政院院長在你們NCC的促請之下對台灣社會說了什麼說四月底要出來四月底過了還是沒有看到名單五月二號 卓榮派在說人選都已經確定啦要有多一點時間完成工作安排可能在下週公布名單今天幾月幾號五月十八"},{"start":3597.301,"end":3614.649,"text":"名單什麼時候會出來不知道在全責單位全責單位是誰行政院對啊現在問題就來了現在問題就來了誰在台灣NCC啊我們堂堂的行政院院長卓榮泰我也不曉得要怎麼去形容他講話他講話跟放空氣一樣"},{"start":3626.442,"end":3629.705,"text":"講話不算話到現在名單也沒送來我不知道NCC交通委員會的委員今天會不會同意解凍但我是充滿了困惑充滿了困惑誰在癱瘓NCC行政部名單都不送出來來我問下一個問題"},{"start":3653.437,"end":3678.433,"text":"現在原來提名的那四個人有一個因為NCC組織法的修正已經完全不符合資格嘛那本來的那份名單還有三個人本來提名的名單行政院要撤回嗎這部分應該是大院跟行政院互動的議題我這邊沒有角色立場來評論好來"},{"start":3681.312,"end":3705.533,"text":"這不是我們單純的跟行政院互動的問題因為行政院把名單送來立法院我有跟議事處的人確認確認這份名單到目前為止沒有撤回到目前為止沒有撤回但我們覺得很困惑總統他又說他要提一份新的名單然後新的名單也不送來"},{"start":3706.894,"end":3735.821,"text":"所以原來的名單主委你認為剩下來的三個人本院到底應該就這剩下的三個人現在啟動審查程序還是要等靜靜的等等我們行政院院長卓榮泰的通知看他有沒有要重新送名單這一部分NCC會我個人沒有立場來評議這件事情沒關係按照"},{"start":3736.84,"end":3763.419,"text":"你現在作為NCC代理主委本來那三個在名單上面還具有資格的那三個人他們有沒有向行政院表達執意說我不想接受行政院提名了你有沒有掌握這個資訊不得而知不得而知喔 奇怪連我都聽說了代理主委不得而知你的情報網路比我還差"},{"start":3764.485,"end":3787.719,"text":"因為那是非正式的所以不再自己表述OK 張偉啊我不是交通委員會的委員啦那但我覺得交通委員會的委員我虛心誠懇的建議啊可能要考慮一下因為現在卓龍泰擺爛嘛卓龍泰擺爛全台灣人民拿他沒皮條啊"},{"start":3788.666,"end":3811.92,"text":"他愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞他愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞卓榮泰擺爛 癱瘓NCC主委 代理主委站在那邊也很無奈沒有人知道該怎麼辦那因為擺爛的是卓榮泰所以我看NCC代理主委面對行政院院長恐怕也不敢多說什麼啦"},{"start":3812.83,"end":3834.29,"text":"但是立法院這件事情要怎麼處理啊恐怕主責的交通委員會啊要有一個基本的態度出來要有一個基本的態度出來甚至喔 甚至原來在名單上面的那三個人是不是有表達慈意是不是有要求行政院"},{"start":3835.587,"end":3859.928,"text":"說你要把名單撤回來我不願意接受你提名這個資訊是不是有被行政院隱匿這些事情恐怕國會要扮演監督的角色這些事情都要進一步加以追究這個是給召委一個誠懇虛心的建議提供給貴委員會能夠參考最後"},{"start":3864.502,"end":3892.071,"text":"最後我只講一件事情我還是期待可能要主委 代理主委去跟卓榮泰講從你的角色來講覺得非常的尷尬但是我們在國會裡面公開的質詢我相信卓榮泰聽得到啦我相信卓榮泰聽得到但反正卓榮泰現在就耍皮嘛 擺爛嘛總質詢過了嘛你們這些立委也拿我沒皮條嘛"},{"start":3893.168,"end":3900.253,"text":"我整天就躲在行政院裡面嘛該做的事情也不做自己癱瘓自己的行政部門讓人大開眼界好 謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌總召執行"},{"start":3911.466,"end":3928.435,"text":"這個特別跟陳主委要做一個說明剛才黃國昌總召他執行的這個其實要下情上打所以今天我想一想也是對因為我們那個解凍是七個委員現在只有三個委員"},{"start":3929.235,"end":3943.654,"text":"那有沒有這種必要今天會解凍那你今天解凍以後上了宴會還是會被拉下來所以這個等一下要稍微商討一下因為一向就像剛才在解凍113年的"},{"start":3945.576,"end":3972.408,"text":"執政黨沒有在這裡反對黨也是讓你過啊謝謝委員反而是我去協調反對黨來這裡法定程序所以我還是希望這些事情NCC是大家等大家等所以主委可能要透過下情善打的問題還應給卓院長這樣可能會比較妥當一點謝謝蔡委我會努力謝謝那接下來我們李昆哲委員執行"},{"start":3981.818,"end":3990.951,"text":"謝謝召委 請一下陳代理主委陳代理主委你好"},{"start":3992.555,"end":4019.478,"text":"主委你好我記得2011年NCC有發布一個兒少通訊傳播權益的政策白皮書那當時也提出幾個口號像寓教於樂啦健康安全啦平等禁用等等目標他也希望能夠提出內容的一個分級制度以及要建立兒少"},{"start":4020.019,"end":4022.807,"text":"友善的媒體環境等等這些目標"},{"start":4026.145,"end":4053.739,"text":"這份兒少白皮書其實已經經過14年了那它其實早已經沒有辦法面對現在的這種數位的環境那當初這個通訊傳播的權益主要是比較面對相關的廣播電視有線無線電視以及剛起步的這個數位環境但現在已經不一樣了我們看到現在兒少所接觸的媒體"},{"start":4055.185,"end":4081.141,"text":"已經是像這個短眼音社群平台還有這種串流的平台等等這樣的一個最主要的接收的一個來源那這些平台我們看它有一些演算法商業化的核心場域或者是收集兒少的個資甚至有一些不當內容這些不當內容的"},{"start":4083.903,"end":4092.242,"text":"推波啊 潛在的不當內容的推波其實也屢見不鮮啊那NCC我知道在去年"},{"start":4093.933,"end":4118.868,"text":"2024年7月有公布一個初稿這個初稿就是網際網路傳播政策的白皮書還是一個初稿當然初稿裡面我看有提出說維護使用者權益或建立安全可靠的這種信賴環境等等但是對於兒少的這樣的一個結構的脆弱性內容是明顯的不足"},{"start":4119.946,"end":4144.669,"text":"那我請問一下主委我們這個NCC今年要提出NCC現在所要提出的這個網際網路傳播政策白皮書目前的架構是怎樣來說明一下是否有針對兒少的結構它的脆弱性有提出更多的防護以及應對的措施來說明一下"},{"start":4145.35,"end":4164.749,"text":"好那跟我們報告就那這一部分我們其實在2011年版本以後在每個個案的一些落實上在我們既有的作用法的範圍內都有處理那剛剛委員提到說在網際網路這一塊的話那我們是因為目前國內沒有相應的作用法但是根據行政院的分工原則"},{"start":4166.471,"end":4196.011,"text":"相關的事務跟實體世界是對接的那這一部分我們都會跟相關部會來協力那像NC這一塊的部分IWIN的設立保障兒少的一些身心健康福利這一塊我們都會持續辦理那政策白皮書的部分我們現在已經有參酌各界的意見那未來會在委員會議可以組成的時候來進一步來挑定他的確定的版本這段期間我們還是持續請平台業者來相關要有一定的一個"},{"start":4197.152,"end":4212.854,"text":"持續落實自立然後也在民眾端來做一些教育宣導跟素養的培力部分主委我們來看看啦我們在過去都希望平台自立啊是一個他們重要的責任那我們看看這個"},{"start":4214.055,"end":4240.946,"text":"在去年7月所公布的這個初稿就是網際網路傳播政策白皮書的初稿平台自立也是這個初稿裡面一個重要的願景但是平台自立還是有它的侷限性它缺乏平台的內容審查的透明性跟審查邏輯的一個說明另外也沒有申訴的制度或者是救濟的程序那言論自由"},{"start":4241.826,"end":4260.773,"text":"恐怕也會受到隱形的一個壓抑我們也清楚有這樣的一個問題那這樣排序 等隱性的這種懲罰沒有資訊揭露的一個追溯的可能那像這種平台自立的問題啊那NCC的想法是怎樣 政策對應是如何"},{"start":4262.392,"end":4284.918,"text":"師傅跟我們回報大概分幾點第一點我們就是剛剛就這一頁的簡報提到關於申訴救濟這一塊我們會在沒有作用法之前我們會訂一個軟法就是訂定一個指引然後也會訂定多方利害關係人來運作一些指引那至於其他部分細節部分我們師傅容我請我們主任來說明一下主委我來趕快簡短說明"},{"start":4286.209,"end":4306.854,"text":"是那個委員剛才催詢的部分那我們就是說收集了各方的意見包括五個公民團體很重要的意見那其中有那個兒少的單位團體也給我們很多的指教包括希望說納入西亞系一些條款那我們就是說"},{"start":4308.294,"end":4335.025,"text":"未來會參佐相關的意見然後做一些調修那提到到時候委員會能夠合法組成的時候主委這種網路是公共論壇的一個重要的場域啦那其實我們看到民主先進國家歐美啊除了平台的自律之外有一個重要的國際趨勢就是將問責也逐步的納入"},{"start":4335.779,"end":4360.706,"text":"那我們要比照是不是會考慮比照歐盟或者是比照歐盟他們針對高風險的這種內容的推波還有演算法的一個歧視或者是帳號濫用的情形他們會進行風險評估跟定期的揭露報告我們會不會採取這樣的一個趨勢來說明一下是的 那早期"},{"start":4361.886,"end":4385.666,"text":"歐盟的DSA這些機制我們當時也有跟國際來對接來處理那前幾年訂定的訴訟法是有這方面的一些借鏡的處理那因為當時社會各界沒有共識所以這邊暫時還沒有往前推進但是我們在這個沒有作用法的情況之下自律是也是舉世"},{"start":4386.767,"end":4412.209,"text":"各國主要的一些處理的一些方向我們這邊就強化治癒強化平台的自立跟透明透明包括剛剛委員提到的申訴救濟還有它演算法如果把你下架那些東西它的必須要機制透明所以我們才會剛剛跟委員報告說我們會先起來促進自立之外還要訂定一些指引來讓他們來遵循當然他們如果內容有違法有違反的話會有對應的一時的"},{"start":4415.332,"end":4437.934,"text":"機關來處理像兒少部門很多都是衛福主管機關來會有一些處理主委我們來看跨國平台其實我們看到我們監管的職責其實是不清的啦那NCC是否是主責其實這個也沒有說明的很清楚另外也沒有這一種跨國平台他有具體的落地"},{"start":4438.855,"end":4460.604,"text":"或者是他有沒有稅責的問題或者是有沒有審查的義務其實都造成了執法的一個真空那另外政府也缺乏這種對於兒少演算法這種風險他的一個具體的政策空間那其實我認為我們面對跨國平台"},{"start":4461.664,"end":4470.114,"text":"我們的政策因應不能只停留在國內的對話如果政府無從問責那無從規範這種數位主權跟資訊的自治就會形成空談"},{"start":4477.583,"end":4495.962,"text":"那NCC是不是會規劃我們應該跟蘇發部還有法務部衛福部等相關單位來研議是否成立這種跨部會的選擇機制來明確的界定這種跨國平台的監管的職長來"},{"start":4497.623,"end":4516.999,"text":"說明一下是的這一塊我們都持續收集國際的發展趨勢在國內部分也跟像數位部等等來同時來一併來協商處理討論特別是數位經濟跟廣告投放那一塊目前是比較明確是由數位部來處理那其他部分那會延續先前"},{"start":4519.904,"end":4544.838,"text":"最後因為時間的關係我簡單說明一下我們對數位治理責任我們的一個未來的展望那其實我們必須要重新檢視網際網路傳播政策白皮書這樣的一個粗搞的內容我有三點建議NCC必須由平台共識邁向制度的一個責任"},{"start":4545.978,"end":4556.404,"text":"這是要做的另外也儘速要對接國際法律的規範跟趨勢就是建立duty of care就是注意義務的這樣的一個規範另外我認為應該要優先處理兒少的隱私"},{"start":4563.848,"end":4581.474,"text":"風險的揭露以及資訊自主啊這三大核心的一個保障來主委讓你最後簡單的說明是那謝謝委員的提點這方面我們會持續來精進那像二哨隱私部分目前相關的IRIN的處理的量能部分"},{"start":4582.934,"end":4601.547,"text":"還搭配著兒少法相關的法尊一些執法跟業者的法尊部分我們都會持續來跟平台業者來持續溝通我們也有辦一些不管是找業者來做專業的培育跟跟民眾培育培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培養培"},{"start":4612.754,"end":4618.739,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝李崑澤委員的執行現在請蔡其昌副院長執行謝謝主席請主委好 陳代主委委員早 主委早"},{"start":4645.054,"end":4669.895,"text":"我們今天還是就那個打詐的部分這個之前我們之前我們在這個倡導簡訊的這個111過去我們一度認為告訴民眾只要收到簡訊的title是111大概就確定這個不是詐騙"},{"start":4671.327,"end":4696.993,"text":"曾經好幾個月我們都在宣導這個事情那看起來最近又有一個案例用移動式2G的移動式基地台他只要移動到某一個區域進行蓋台他就可以發111的簡訊現在還有多少人可以收到移動式2G的基地台"},{"start":4697.679,"end":4725.008,"text":"的這種111的簡訊比如說我的手機是5G嘛那我收得到嗎新出品的手機收不到除非有去改動它的人機介面把2G default的啟動把它開為啟動把它打開嘛好 那主委那現在如果以不打開的情況底下我們國人還有多少人會受到這種移動基地台"},{"start":4726.112,"end":4745.537,"text":"造假111簡訊的影響大概都是112年9月1號刑事證證手機以前的產品以前的手機比較舊的比較會有可能那就針對這個偽2G基站的發送部分我們大概跟業者跟電證隊跟刑事檢查局都有"},{"start":4746.457,"end":4772.376,"text":"都有一個聯防措施喔那剛剛委員提到說近期破壞南北各一個偽基地台部分發送就是南部在使用的情況就是在系統端也是事後部分我們我跟業者跟電信偵查大隊會有一些協助處理那手機端剛剛跟委員報告部分我們在其實在112年9月1號的我們有要求業者9月1號112年9月1號"},{"start":4774.878,"end":4795.532,"text":"新認證的手機必須要那個系統軟體端就設定說國內發的二級簡訊是不予接收的那後來這部分有一些局限性被詐團知悉了他就用一些特殊的方式來處理那但是我們持續精進我們今年今年5月1號以後的安卓手機跟"},{"start":4796.152,"end":4798.554,"text":"那主委那我請教你明天如果一個人收到111的話那他可信或可不信"},{"start":4821.104,"end":4829.871,"text":"就是說我們過去一直在告訴大家111沒有問題你只要看到111100%就是政府發的那現在這樣的宣導可以持續嗎"},{"start":4831.291,"end":4857.812,"text":"可以持續 但是這段期間在這個手機端完全這個正確D4OFF的覆蓋率百分之百之前會有灰色地帶會有少部分人會收到那應該就是說現在還不可盡信啦可能maybe還有幾因為我剛剛在問你數字嘛就還有多少人基本上在NC掌握的資訊裡面還有多少人還可以收到這種移動式詐騙基地台的這種一一一一簡訊還有多少人"},{"start":4858.365,"end":4883.349,"text":"詳細數據我這邊是沒有 但是根據我們國人手機汰換的一些週期評語的話應該是 因為應該還有 應該可能會有五分之一左右的人那算起來數量很大 是有可能 還很大喔所以我建議說 如果你們 因為過去我們一直在宣導這件事情那我覺得這時候你應該 還有如果 不要說五分之一啦"},{"start":4884.534,"end":4896.652,"text":"不要說五分之一 十分之一的就很大了十分之一的量 他收到111是詐騙簡訊的機會就很高囉十個裡面就有一個 你想十個號碼裡面就有一個號碼收得到這個很可怕嘛"},{"start":4896.983,"end":4915.319,"text":"所以我們也會持續懷疑對簡訊面容的時候要打165來確認對所以你還是不可以宣導111是可以就你直接就相信這一定是政府的簡訊嘛所以直到你剛剛想過你怎麼去補破網補好之後再來宣導"},{"start":4917.472,"end":4926.801,"text":"主委可不可以 就這件事 跟蘇發普溝通一下可以 沒問題因為這個看起來就不是嘛 過去宣導111是絕對沒有問題 絕對安全我認為這個資訊都是錯誤的因為你剛剛講數量 我認為五分之一還很大啦 還很大也就是十個電話號碼當中 有五個可能還會收到 111是詐騙"},{"start":4940.885,"end":4965.681,"text":"但是隨著時間往後推就會快速下降所以你等到快速下降譬如說你認為全台灣可能百分之一或千分之一的時候你再來講這件事情或許比較合理這個階段你告訴大家這111我是建議應該我們在這裡要澄清111在這個階段並不是不需要查證一定是政府發給你的"},{"start":4966.823,"end":4990.289,"text":"委員說得對,這邊我會跟數位部來協力處理好,那另外我們一般講外籍人士的卡現在的我們外籍人士的預付卡用預付詐騙集團買外籍人士要離境之後的預付卡來進行詐騙犯罪"},{"start":4992.915,"end":4997.089,"text":"主委這個狀況現在的比例上數量有沒有下來"},{"start":4999.305,"end":5025.865,"text":"這部分我們有在進行清查從去年11月還有223萬我們現在已經清查完100多萬清查完只要他依據打造條例只要他已經出境或者他的預期距離我們都會給你斷話目前已經斷了14萬那不符這個資格他來新申辦的我們也拒絕了11.4萬這個比例我們會期待在8我們要求電信業者在"},{"start":5026.525,"end":5046.174,"text":"八月以前全部清查完畢這塊的話清查完畢之後它比例會逐漸下降所以清查完畢之後等於如果外籍人士離境就應該給他斷訊是應該這麼說嘛對好那這個速度可能要能夠盡量請電信業者加快因為這一塊的犯罪還是持續的還是數字還是在嘛"},{"start":5046.759,"end":5067.652,"text":"對 像中華電信它就有在我們要求下 它六月份就會全部清查完成好 這個我覺得緊盯啦 那狀況怎麼樣再給我一個報告好 沒問題這個我覺得是我們要想辦法把詐騙的根源都一一把它切斷好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝蔡錫昌副院長現在請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":5079.397,"end":5093.818,"text":"好謝謝主席有請NCC陳主委陳代主委好各位主委事實上上次問過了啦剛剛有很多委員也問過了"},{"start":5095.27,"end":5110.412,"text":"那我再請教一下最主要是說我們從去年四位委員卸任算一算7月31號然後就剩三位嘛你是其中一位嗎四位到11月30都還有四位好"},{"start":5111.829,"end":5126.844,"text":"那就請教一下你是那三位之一嗎現在的是那現在到現在將近兩三百天這個部分因為剛剛委員也認過名單卡關當然在第一階段是原始的第一波的一個名單"},{"start":5127.785,"end":5142.983,"text":"事實上在立院大家有新舊不同的院長提名的一個爭議問題這個跟不光是哪一個黨派的問題後面發覺委員會不管是藍綠都沒有去排進入去審議這個問題"},{"start":5144.645,"end":5164.902,"text":"那卡關之後我也覺得很奇怪啦當然你說這是社市行政院的一個權利啦那從去年的這個11月12月說新的名單會出來到就是這個月5月要出來看樣子你們有聽說這個馬上會停嗎還要到6月呢有沒有消息啊"},{"start":5166.026,"end":5176.538,"text":"公文報告沒有因為是在NCC組織法規定是行政院的職權我們這邊相對沒有角色就完全不管"},{"start":5177.625,"end":5195.402,"text":"我們有適當的反應那我相信行政院方面應該也知道NCC的情況這困難在哪裡還沒找到中心的是不是還是有沒有聽說還沒找到效忠的還是不夠專業的不在我個人的了解範圍內"},{"start":5197.093,"end":5219.469,"text":"好 那在你的業務方面 那NCC的業務這個現在這是你們回報了 回報說目前帶委員會來審議的一些的這個案子嘛包括重要的計畫 包括了這個通訊傳播業務包括公告許可相關的一個處分的案件那總共將近200多件"},{"start":5221.75,"end":5248.865,"text":"其中好像請教這麼多個案件等委員會正式成立才可以處理其中目前看到其他項的前面涉及內容違規代開罰的案件開罰的案件剛剛有問了經過你們外部的諮詢外部的諮詢廣告諮詢審議已經送到委員會代審的部分據說有14件你了解嗎是不是差不多是這件數"},{"start":5250.902,"end":5275.94,"text":"好 三案十四件因為事實上這個大概也累積了將近差不多將近三百天那累積成十四件我就請教一下因為在過去我們透過了衛星廣播電視法第27條主要是沒有查證的義務違反公共的一個利益等等其實罰了不少的一個媒體"},{"start":5276.781,"end":5301.327,"text":"但是大家都想這一陣子因為委員不夠所以感覺都沒有人被罰是因為委員會沒辦法開會那這個部分如果有違法違規那按照本法五十三條大概可以罰二十到兩百萬所以你們外部自行委員包括你們都會去討論每個情節不同大概要罰多少"},{"start":5302.387,"end":5316.578,"text":"那我就覺得有點奇怪你覺得十四案十四案會不會消化得太好了因為在去年的下半年去年的第三劑跟第四劑"},{"start":5318.019,"end":5345.436,"text":"總共784件的檢舉案當然每個檢舉案有些是不見得是針對這個檢舉案我理解啦然後再加上今年上半年啦我覺得一年啊 估一千案我也包括委員也有去跟你們去正式公文去檢舉都有來源不同有沒有有直接在你的網頁有打電話的各種的一個情況啊但我覺得你們現在消化在我看起來消化的能量是不錯"},{"start":5346.677,"end":5364.489,"text":"能吃能喝1000件消化成14件大概是什麼原因你能不能說一下因為很多是重複同樣案有對同個電台的節目重複很多人去檢舉所以多案其實要處理的電視台其實就會移案類似這種情況"},{"start":5365.868,"end":5393.914,"text":"好 那這個部分我們也不希望有什麼樣的誤解我們希望在下次的這個部分針對於所以檢舉案件你怎麼去消化的讓我們知道一下譬如同樣一個案子有可能有50個人檢舉100個人打同樣的有可能 這我接受但是到底怎麼樣去消化的一個過程我想這對我們交通委員會的一個委員我們希望去了解一下因為很多民眾在問他的檢舉是不是不見了"},{"start":5395.375,"end":5409.833,"text":"這個部分但我們知道說假設一千多件現在最終目前待審院剩下14件那我們希望能夠進一步了解相關的資料可以給我們的委員來了解參考嗎在可以介入的部分我們會給委員"},{"start":5412.737,"end":5429.655,"text":"接下來這個今年度上半年跟下半年整個的一個執照要換照大概總共加起來有87家了包括了無線電視包括了這個衛廣事業還有這個有線電視無線電視大概都有那這個的部分"},{"start":5433.839,"end":5450.632,"text":"現在確實有一些擔心的你們這邊大家業者擔心的問題你講了很多次嘛就是說系統經營者他的法規是不得傳送未經中央主管機關許可頻道供應事業的節目或廣告啦"},{"start":5451.552,"end":5470.209,"text":"如果有的話是有罰則那你們現在解答是如果播送雖然你還沒有換照那這個部分以你們答的就很斯文我們會以收聽者這個權益跟整整整體公共利益為優先考量那這個部分"},{"start":5471.13,"end":5489.266,"text":"是到底如果換照沒有成功按照有相關的違法疑慮的話你們都會不處理還是你會突然覺得我感覺有一個比較沒有符合公共利益所以我們還是按照這個來罰到底大概一般的原則到底怎麼樣請你再說一次剛剛委員提到關鍵字"},{"start":5491.508,"end":5512.507,"text":"他不是換照沒有成功是因為我們這換照程序還在程序進行中還沒有上委員會所以他是類似處於效率未定狀態所以他跟換照不成功是不相等的這第一點補充第二點補充武廣的部分他如果說他要把它取消的話那也要"},{"start":5513.268,"end":5541.332,"text":"取消他的大照也要經過委員會那基本是目前沒有委員會所以剛好沒辦法處理有線電視上頭的頻道部分上下降與否那基本頻道要經過委員會審議那現在也沒有委員會所以剛好會有兩個法規這個法規跟基本頻道要送NCC委員會審議這兩個法規剛好是在這個特殊情境之下剛好是協力可以讓收視聽眾的權益可以維持下去"},{"start":5541.932,"end":5560.621,"text":"好的因為你這個就是有很多擔心的要聽你整個做一個這樣的一個說明啊再來我們有看到你通訊傳播這個監督管理基金啊每一年啊去補助我們看到了很多那個機關啊團體啊那這個的部分那績效如何啊"},{"start":5561.721,"end":5589.227,"text":"您每天的每一年的一個補助啊你預期的效益是如何有沒有達到各位媒體包括就了解內容處這邊透過有限電視補助有限電視業者製作地方特色的一些成績起碼有29部我印象中是有29部那這邊沒有啦我先問你左邊這個啦通訊傳播監督管理基金啊每一年大概50萬到90萬嘛那個的部分"},{"start":5590.507,"end":5611.069,"text":"效果如何?通傳基金這邊的補助是也是讓活絡社會上各個跟傳播相關的團體繼續國內的一些這個傳播的一些量能也讓國內的一些產業傳播產業不管是製波那方面會有個互動也會有所以不必有什麼KPI啦"},{"start":5612.35,"end":5628.19,"text":"就是非帶營養 社會不理補助完 大家開心 happy 拜拜明年再來不過您有什麼KPI嗎這邊細節我請副組長補充時間到了啦有沒有什麼KPI你們自己去事後能夠補充資料給我啦再來一個有線電視廣播這個基金的這個部分"},{"start":5631.013,"end":5658.922,"text":"你過去三年我們看了也補助了兩千萬我們看到有些有線電視它製作的節目確實有進步但是我們覺得滿可惜的很多精彩的節目都在很冷門的頻道默默的 默默的放那我覺得因為當然這個沒有要怪誰你知道嗎因為有些熱門頻道新聞媒體的頻道那本身有線電視它的廣播的業者自有的頻道"},{"start":5659.682,"end":5680.025,"text":"本身就沒有這麼熱門但是我是覺得應該你們要建議他輔導他他們這麼認真去採訪的這麼深入的一個節目要透過了除了他的頻道之外能夠深入用網路用推播的一些技巧讓更多人可以去接觸到這個有沒有辦法去這個有沒有辦法做"},{"start":5681.167,"end":5692.282,"text":"我們現在已經有做透過連結到社群網站的YT或者其他的播送平台他們都有在做而且有些部分也有得獎"},{"start":5693.598,"end":5713.893,"text":"我知道你要注意一下點播率最後一個這是你們自己做的113年去年度通訊傳播市場的一個整體報告各類的其中就維持原來水準的就是受眾覺得跟平常水準差不多的大概7成覺得更糟的10.3%我們就覺得更糟的部分"},{"start":5717.435,"end":5743.878,"text":"到底發生什麼事情這是因為你們的報告我就詢問一下因為這中間幾個理由啊重播率太高八成然後這個政論節目太多政治偏頗缺乏多樣性播出集數過多脫戲那這個部分裡面有什麼一個報告之後有什麼具體的一個措施讓相關的可以處理的一些業者有什麼改善的空間嗎最後一個問題請您來說明一下"},{"start":5745.419,"end":5774.189,"text":"是的那在我們的傳播法規上會有一些對於相關頻道的一些本國自治力的會有一些基本要求他們必須要在這個這條基本要求線上以上否則就是違法就會有罰則那其他部分我們尊重這個媒體他們的編輯自主這部分那當然觀眾反映的意見也是我們也會讓事實也會促也會不斷的在評鑑換照裡頭要求業者來往更"},{"start":5775.009,"end":5804.045,"text":"向上提升好啦因為你花了這麼多經費做了一個整個市場報告真的好的你們要去鼓勵啦好不好不好的要改善好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝魯明哲委員的執行現在請林俊憲委員執行好感謝主席本席邀請我們NCC代主委好陳代主委"},{"start":5808.717,"end":5825.289,"text":"委員好 主委好 主委我們5月19號發生在新北三峽的那個重大車禍你還記得嗎 記得 甚至有不只肇事 有人不幸死亡 甚至有學生也罹難"},{"start":5826.926,"end":5842.289,"text":"這是5月19號發生的那發生這個當然是重大新聞幾乎所有全國的媒體都做了非常量很大而且很仔細的一個報導那NCC5月21號有發布臉書來要求廣電媒體自播新聞"},{"start":5849.81,"end":5876.217,"text":"要有一定的原則自律為什麼NCC在5月21號要發布這樣的一個聲明因為在這個事件發生以後各媒體的報導包括有現場有血跡的還有肇事者臉部很清楚滿臉是血的那這個畫面其實適合來由媒體來播送嗎"},{"start":5878.143,"end":5906.615,"text":"所以NCC有訂出一個原則啦對不對有你有提出一個規律啦 應該這麼講啦是 這是剛剛委員講到這邊的四點齁那另外其實 通案上如果新聞報導它應該是屬於普遍級的如果它過於血腥這部分其實會違反節目分級那我要跟請教戴主委齁 陳主委齁你5月19號發生錯誤喔5月19號開始啦 一天兩天整天新聞都是在報導這個事情"},{"start":5908.39,"end":5928.501,"text":"NCC5月21號才發出這個聲明你這聲明有四點我覺得你這四點沒有問題那你為什麼拖了兩天新聞報導已經快要已經引起很多人的議論了有很多爭議性的畫面不應該出現了"},{"start":5929.69,"end":5951.306,"text":"你ACC才出來講話ACC有提四點第一個避免過度呈現令人驚懼的畫面對於意外災難現場拍到的影像必須嚴格審慎篩選後才得以播出這第一點ACC的聲明第二個對意外災難事件的慘狀"},{"start":5953.663,"end":5975.286,"text":"不做特寫拍攝 若你沒有辦法避免 那麼應該要做後製的剪輯予以處理第三 不要使用過度悲傷者痛苦的影像若有必要 那應該要審慎過濾 而且絕不濫用並且不要重複播放"},{"start":5976.431,"end":5986.705,"text":"第四點 災難悲劇發生一段時間以後那麼你應該要考量這種受難者 災民的心理傷害避免引起負面效益"},{"start":5987.952,"end":6009.086,"text":"你要補充什麼是 各位補充報告其實這些只是我們在個案上的提醒其實通案上他們 我們在108年就把那沒有用啊 有用嗎我們所以才在重大事件的時候要提醒他們你19號發生 看當天的新聞報導你應該就要提醒所有的相關播出畫面的媒體啦對不對你為什麼21號再提這個聲明因為你發現啦哇 這個報導已經有一點超過"},{"start":6018.683,"end":6044.81,"text":"就是說你的那個原則了所以你才21要補這個聲明嘛來我再給你看下一個新聞這個你的聲明裡面也有提到像這個一個受難學生的同學吧還是學姊他受訪的時候這個學生很明顯的情緒已經失控他們痛哭啊那這個畫面也全程的拍攝播放這個就是在你的"},{"start":6050.236,"end":6059.451,"text":"又在你的 這個是第二天的新聞 5月20號在你的原則裡面有提到的 恩賢心呼籲的不要過度使用悲傷者痛苦的形象"},{"start":6061.765,"end":6088.31,"text":"對跟我們報告平常時期其實我們就108年給他們一個自律規範108年公協會所以他們都會我們都要求他們持續要落實他們的自律108年你去年啦去年再發一次啦108年108年發什麼現場有誰記得你去年2024年12月不到半年前NCG就發布一個網路新聞自律原則"},{"start":6089.918,"end":6104.175,"text":"對 就是網路的部分那你還扯到108年你去年10月發的都不好啊因為108年發的有什麼用去年的是網路新聞剛剛講的是其實最最容易最容易觸犯的其實相關的網媒"},{"start":6106.454,"end":6121.879,"text":"所以你才特別針對網路新聞因為目前針對網媒你沒有無法可管嘛所以你特別在公布這樣的一個自律原則啦那其實不管什麼樣的媒體啦我認為媒體的對於類似這種重大事件的報導在國外怎麼做啊"},{"start":6126.345,"end":6155.149,"text":"自律是其中一個啦 就自律他律嘛就法律的規範還有媒體的自律嘛其實NCC只能做的就是呼籲啊要自律 所以你提的都是一些自律原則包括建立內控先速管道回應 保護兒少權益 維護新聞自由 尊重隱私貫徹事實查爾 錯誤報導 你就寫這些原則啦我們來看一下國外的做法啦像英國啦英國是impressed德國是"},{"start":6156.684,"end":6185.312,"text":"PrestradPrestradPrestrad這個也是德國的一個這兩個in place是英國的一個自立組織啦德國的他們都有相關的新聞準則就是呢我們媒體在做相關報導的時候啊那大家有一些彼此的一個自己的一個約束那台灣啊NCG就像你講的108年開始NCG很想做這個方面的事情啊也很想成立這樣的一個"},{"start":6186.516,"end":6199.702,"text":"的一個組織啦就是由各媒體大家這是自願加入的喔在國際上這些都是自願加入的但是他鼓勵媒體自願加入因為你只要加入啊"},{"start":6200.799,"end":6214.779,"text":"那這個獲得這個組織的認證那對於你這個媒體本身就是說你的新聞內容報導還表示有一定品質還有你這個新聞媒體的定位也可以得到就是說這個組織的認證社會上的一個肯定"},{"start":6218.023,"end":6242.77,"text":"對 那根本回報我們國內其實也朝這方向來做那之聲簡報提到這兩個都是也是第三方也不是政府當然但我們今年度大概也會推一個網際網路上的新聞媒體的一些防護的機制我們去年12月發布了網路新聞的自立原則草案那進一步我們會推動它有個組織化來處理你是去年7月就開會要討論"},{"start":6245.717,"end":6260.945,"text":"討論以後搞了半年去年12月發布你剛講的原則草案嘛然後到現在6月了還沒看到草案我們知道你的時間單位是是一年為單位 半年為單位那你草案什麼時候出來"},{"start":6262.168,"end":6282.021,"text":"我討論部分因為涉及到因為剛剛提到說我們為了要推組織加入這個組織所以他這個制裂原則部分我們必須要取得比較多數的共識目前會有一些部分還在西部的處理但是今年的防護機制我們會有一個案子在處理那今年會有相關單位來投標相信今年也會在這個"},{"start":6282.281,"end":6289.404,"text":"我們希望NCC在這方面尤其在這次的重大車禍事件上我們可以看出這樣的一個必要性好不好 我們會繼續努力請加油 請努力 謝謝主席 謝謝主委"},{"start":6310.953,"end":6331.668,"text":"謝謝林進憲委員的執行現在請陳樹業委員執行謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳代理主委好 陳代主委"},{"start":6337.455,"end":6351.47,"text":"主委早安北溪今天跟主委討論有關這個兒少就是使用網路的一個狀況那我們知道就是因為這個網際網路的一個便利性跟方便性所以現在根據統計我們國人這個"},{"start":6354.072,"end":6371.127,"text":"使用手機的這個年齡真的是就是平均10歲就開始有自己的手機了那當然使用我想有時候可能更小因為我看發現現在很多父母那個可能兩三歲幼稚園開始在就是會透過這個平板讓他們看一些節目那根據這個兒福聯盟的一個統計就是台灣兒少社群媒體影響的概況有一個調查報告"},{"start":6382.396,"end":6403.657,"text":"就是平均10歲就擁有自己的專用手機然後11歲就自己創社群媒體的一個帳號那高達9成5的兒少有在使用社群媒體所以這樣子的一個狀況事實上因為我們也知道這個網路上的一個訊息非常的複雜那也有很多負面的這個"},{"start":6405.279,"end":6415.312,"text":"訊息所以這樣子對整個兒童的一個成長事實上身心的成長都有很大的影響那我們也看到就是說根據統計有過半數的兒少大概有56.6%在網路上有過負面的經驗那超過兩成的兒少曾經就是收到這個假訊息"},{"start":6423.562,"end":6443.913,"text":"那也有超過兩成的兒少曾經看到不符合聯名的廣告那也有超過兩成的兒少收到這個社群的影音或訊息所以這樣的比例是蠻高的那本席也曾經有受理過一個陳情就是他才高中 國一而已 他國一或國二"},{"start":6445.213,"end":6463.548,"text":"這樣子的一個學生他就已經在做這個網拍網路的一個拍賣所以我覺得說這樣子讓我們就是發覺到這也真的是讓人家非常的震驚就是說現在小孩子使用網路在年齡層真的透露出他們真的很早熟"},{"start":6465.369,"end":6484.322,"text":"那這個個案因為我受理的這個陳情它是類似疑似被設局詐騙所以我覺得就是說對這樣子的一個狀況真的是對整個兒少的一個身心成長真的有很大的影響那我想請教一下就是說我們NCC如何處理網路上有害兒少身心的內容"},{"start":6485.026,"end":6508.633,"text":"好 那幾點跟委員回報第一個就是我們ECG兒少法是六條的召集相關機關設立成立一個INRIN這個組織機構來處理這個保護兒少的身心健康那另外在剛剛委員提到這個使用過早使用部分我們也依據衛福部相關的一些法令來在我們攝影器材3C產品裡頭會貼一些標示"},{"start":6510.713,"end":6536.954,"text":"提醒他們一天使用上網的時間這邊要有一個提醒跟注意不要過多暴露在這個上網時間避免網路成癮那第三個網路上的一些訊息很多種如果是有害的部分對應這個會有世紀事件會有相關主管機關來做一些法律上的處理在還沒有構成違法之前的那會有一些相關"},{"start":6537.995,"end":6563.663,"text":"平台上的也好會有一些自律社群守則跟使用規範我們這邊會要求平台業者來做持續的一些自律那當然在民眾端兒少端家長端親師端我們都會有做一些素養培力方面每年都會進行一些宣導像我們最近今年也會在某一縣市的國眾的聯絡部裡頭會有放一些宣導"},{"start":6564.483,"end":6572.246,"text":"宣導一些使用上網安全的一些相關宣導剛剛主委有提到IWIN這個民間團體我們也看到就是說這個是我查到了這112年跟113年的統計數字"},{"start":6583.491,"end":6607.547,"text":"那就是說在網路上而上會接觸到的類型大概有色情、暴力、血腥、恐怖或者是網路霸凌等等這些類型的一個申訴案那我們有發覺到就是112年跟113年那個受理的案件數真的是非常大幅度的一個成長那其中又以色情的這個申訴案件是最多的"},{"start":6607.887,"end":6633.392,"text":"那當然我們受理之後我們看到就是說有分成說有違反法令跟有涉及兒少的那我們單看這個涉及兒少的這個色情的部分件數就成長了將近快三倍兩倍多所以這個數字是蠻驚人的所以在這個部分因為我不曉得說我們目前這樣子的一個民間委外"},{"start":6635.072,"end":6662.218,"text":"來處理這些案件那我不曉得說對於要去處理這麼多的一個案件在人力上足夠嗎在專業度上足夠嗎好 先回答委員最後的提問所以我們NCC有規劃說要把安慰法治化變成一個法人這時候我們會繼續努力那剛剛委員提到為什麼1213這個申訴案落差那麼大主要原因是因為113年有幾個重大個案特別是日本的"},{"start":6663.659,"end":6680.175,"text":"動畫一些被檢舉的那是海量檢舉到愛護那邊另外一個是有個幼稚園狼屍的案件那個是檢舉很多所以在前13年的檢舉量是遠遠高於年平均在過往一年大概3000多件去年大概6000多件是"},{"start":6682.617,"end":6703.418,"text":"那我們也看到就是說我們IWIN在受理這些申訴案之後的一個處理狀況我們有分成就是處理跟不受理的這樣子兩個類別那有處理的話就是通知有我們可能就是ACC通知業者改善那或者是轉選擇機關或者是轉黑名單"},{"start":6706.801,"end":6733.179,"text":"那在不受理的部分可能就是有一些理由來不受理可是我們也發現就是說這個不受理的一個比例也是非常的高所以我們也是希望了解說在判定不受理的這個件數上是不是會有漏網之魚這就是牽涉到專業度的一個部分那我們要怎樣讓這個部分能夠做到更完善當然剛剛主友提到說要法治化嘛"},{"start":6734.439,"end":6757.904,"text":"這個法治化有沒有一個期程大概什麼時候會來法治化我們大概去年就有提到院裡頭院裡頭現在有些意見我們還持續要跟相關部會溝通這第一點回報那第二點回報這個關於說的案件類型很多在處理上的量能除了法治化之外我們在先前也依據一個俄薩法四六條"},{"start":6759.564,"end":6781.238,"text":"這個處理機構IOWN的權責部分有些涉及不確定法律概念部分我們會有我們已經弄一個歷史框架在判定上在處理上會有一個準則所以有歷史框架出來之後那目前處理速度大概都還可以在預期的期間來處理那重大案件的話大概都會當天是一天兩天都可以處理掉"},{"start":6781.658,"end":6794.785,"text":"那當然這個現在網路越來越發達使用人口一直往下降這方面的量勢必是會往上成長所以我們也期待這個法人化部分能夠盡快未來能夠圓滿能夠達到"},{"start":6797.486,"end":6814.321,"text":"是好 我再最後一個問題就是說同樣的就是因為這個兒少上網使用這個網路啊那當然就是說會留下這個數位的足跡嘛因為或許他是不經意的去分享或按讚或者是打卡等這個行為"},{"start":6815.362,"end":6834.974,"text":"那這個可能就是會涉及到他的個資的一個外洩包括他的年齡或者是相關的一些個資居住地也好或者是他的生日等等那在這部分我們有沒有去關注到因為我們看到就是說以這個網路受害的這個年齡"},{"start":6836.215,"end":6853.412,"text":"以0到17歲這個就是屬於兒少的這個年齡層他的這個受害的比例也是增加了33.2%所以這個狀況真的也是值得我們要去關注跟去思考要怎麼去解決這樣子一個問題那這部分我們NCC有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":6854.179,"end":6877.182,"text":"這塊我們的提問就是像幾個國際BITTECH他們的平台其實各國先進國家歐盟也都有嚴重關注他們各自保護必須要做到他會有一些相關的法則那如果他們處理得不當的話會有一些團送那賠償都非常的巨量那國內的"},{"start":6878.363,"end":6898.872,"text":"這一部分我們也會持續跟平台業者相關的業者我們會有定期會有不定期的一些溝通告訴他們法尊事項兒少個資保護等等那民眾端我們也在做宣導希望使用者不管是家長也好要注意到說個資風險的一些處理要提醒注意"},{"start":6899.554,"end":6918.356,"text":"是好 因為我們就是說有金魚現在使用網路這個寧寧城真的是從很小就開始用這是一個目前我們真的是要去正視的一個問題那我們也希望就是說針對我們目前有顯現出來的問題我們要去好好思考相關的一個對策好 我們會繼續努力謝謝委員"},{"start":6922.52,"end":6938.377,"text":"謝謝陳樹業委員的執行特別跟委員會報告廖先祥委員執行完畢我們休息十分鐘廖先祥委員執行完畢休息十分鐘現在請何新淳委員執行"},{"start":6944.232,"end":6961.283,"text":"首先先謝謝昭緯的體貼剛剛在未還委員會這個針對兒童托育專法的一個提案說明有點delay到了總而言之謝謝昭緯那我趕到了那我們先請我們的主委陳代主委"},{"start":6966.942,"end":6969.183,"text":"那本席有提案因為我長期來非常關注兒少那在NCC裡面就如同剛剛也有其他委員關注到兒少呢現在呢跟網路的連結"},{"start":6985.989,"end":7000.105,"text":"這個已經深入到生活的每一個層面那兒少的詐騙性剝削等等那網路呢現在看起來就是主要的管道那也嚴重的影響到兒少的身心健康我想我提幾個數字啦這個在5月2號就有媒體報導"},{"start":7003.568,"end":7031.347,"text":"內政部跟警政署還有衛福部就曾經統計過2024年3555名的遭性剝削的兒少這七成的案件都是透過網路媒介家福中心也告訴我們他們的調查報告兒少的數位足跡被掌握存在的安全的風險有半數的兒少就五成大概他們都認為可以在社群媒體上公開個資這是他們的認知"},{"start":7034.389,"end":7059.16,"text":"半數五成以上的兒少不知道如何設定社群平台的隱私權限這個我上次在質詢也曾經跟您說過那有些媒體的數位媒體平台有些可以呢讓這個兒少來設定這個隱私但是呢大多數的平台好像兒少都不知道那四成的兒少呢家長從未跟他們討論過網路安全的議題"},{"start":7063.043,"end":7080.965,"text":"這些數字我跟你講看起來好像沒什麼但是如果細細思想你會讓人家很擔憂台灣對於這個兒少的網路的數位治理政策在我們的NCC裡面到底有沒有納入兒少保護的這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":7081.946,"end":7098.207,"text":"另外一個媒體說的 優活健康的一個媒體說的兒童的身心科門診近三年成長56%那性私密影像外流是智商最嚴重的危險因子智商的風險 自己傷害自己"},{"start":7099.096,"end":7117.227,"text":"增加了5.16倍的風險這些數字讓我們更擔憂我身為兩個孩子的媽媽家長我們都擔憂那所以面對這樣個資外洩性勒索風險我們NCC有沒有協助的角色又該如何協助主委你認為呢"},{"start":7118.251,"end":7145.817,"text":"好那關於這個志強的這一塊的話那因為我們今年3月14已經跟衛福部合作有個自殺防治的一些專線目前也受理80多件這塊我們會持續來努力那另外剛剛提到說兒少的足跡在社群媒體上會被掌握這個我們也在宣導上素養培育上要不斷提醒你講到這個來我現在接下來就要跟主委你討論"},{"start":7146.937,"end":7163.768,"text":"根據的兒少法第46條你NCC召集各機關委託民間團體成立一個內容防護機構就是防止兒童及少年接觸有害其身心發展之網際網路內容這個就是所謂的iWIN我們透過網路google了一下"},{"start":7164.929,"end":7185.624,"text":"我們現在的兒少在他的生活層面就是上網他什麼事不懂也許不敢跟老師講也許不敢跟家長講他會問誰他會跟誰講他會跟網路問他會跟網路講那我們Google了一下目前我們在網路上如果有人上網去搜尋"},{"start":7187.569,"end":7212.085,"text":"兒少遇到網路上的事件的時候他要求助AI給他三個方式一個實體的113專線第二個線上的關懷一起來平台第三個就是iWINiWIN有沒有他的使命 有iWIN誰管 NCC管所以呢 主委如果兒少碰到網路的詐騙勒索不當內容可以向iWIN尋求協助嗎"},{"start":7214.428,"end":7227.319,"text":"打165是最快165是詐騙嘛對不對可是問題是兒少他分得清楚有時候詐騙就衍生到性剝削那他到底是要去打哪一個"},{"start":7228.035,"end":7249.981,"text":"如果他透過iWIN來申訴的話iWIN那邊也會轉接到這個相關的機關165來來來我接下來就來跟你討論這個來來下一頁我剛剛講兒少法46條對不對46條裡面你主管的除了成立iWIN這iWIN裡面我們想當然而在法令上要求第一個兒童及少年使用網際網路的行為觀察"},{"start":7251.801,"end":7268.56,"text":"申訴機制就是IWIN裡面的其中一個內容的分級的推動跟檢討過濾軟體跟建立的推動兒童及少年上網安全教育宣導還有其他的防護機制的建立網路平台的不用說下一頁"},{"start":7270.322,"end":7295.85,"text":"我們既然主管iWIN平台我認為以現在只有申訴的表單而已不夠還可以做更多因為這是一個跨部會一起來參加由NCC組長的一個iWIN平台既然有跨部會那它的功能性應該要再加強我們看到有專家表示三成的青少年他被網路照片之後不敢說"},{"start":7297.37,"end":7316.978,"text":"不敢說 他不敢 我剛剛講的嘛 他不敢跟老師講 不敢跟家長講他只有找網路講嘛 所以當他Google的時候你知道嗎 我們可以理解 青少年擔心被責罵不被諒解那建議呢 青少年如果真的不敢跟家長說 至少可以跟信任的第三方訴說 尋求協助"},{"start":7319.139,"end":7337.697,"text":"我們認為孩子現在生活中就是網路是他生活中裡面接觸最長也最多的一個面向叫做網路這個管道那我們的iWIN這個申訴平台這個管道可以成為兒少的新任的第三方的申訴管道嗎 主委"},{"start":7338.917,"end":7361.443,"text":"可以信任嗎安慰的時機跟credit其實是相當不錯的那剛剛委員提到的這一塊安慰做的不僅僅是申訴包括剛剛四六條議項所提到的一些職長事項他也有跟我們NC協力做很多的一些宣導主委我有進去看啊你裡面雖然有宣導啦但是宣導就是密密麻麻 虛書性的宣導啦"},{"start":7363.263,"end":7380.582,"text":"沒有還有去現場到走出去去現場對到現場到可能有一些學校啦或者是有一些社團啦或者是有一些青少年會到的一個場所你們去宣導啦但是那個都叫做不定期的"},{"start":7381.843,"end":7408.104,"text":"而且沒有規律的那只是用抽查式的找到一個地方就去做宣導一年可能幾場我現在要講的是在你們iWIN平台裡面事實上可以做更多你看到申訴平台裡面我點進去就是這樣子的一個表單在這個表單裡面其實如果就一個兒童或是少年就是來看這個表單第一個我不知道怎麼填"},{"start":7410.123,"end":7425.929,"text":"第二個第二個除了不知道怎麼填之外第二個我要尋求協助我也許不是要提供一個內容那我可以怎麼樣來尋求協助在這個表單裡面我也看不到我可以跟誰尋求協助"},{"start":7428.202,"end":7455.417,"text":"跟我們報告iWIN的申訴管道至少有兩種一個是網路介面剛剛就是用簡報所提示另外是電話它透過電話裡頭就可以電話是哪一支電話好像2577多少我查一下我跟你講我點進去你那個iWIN的那個網站裡面我從頭到尾也沒有看清楚是哪一支申訴電話這個我們會提前iWIN來改進你是現在才告訴我有申訴電話"},{"start":7458.137,"end":7476.742,"text":"不然從頭到尾在那個網路裡面包括你說的宣導的那個按鈕按下去那個介面啪啪啪啪都述書性的說可以鎮定宣導那也沒有重點第二個我說我要申訴我要尋求協助我點進去就只有這個申訴表單嗎你上面沒有告訴我"},{"start":7477.862,"end":7479.964,"text":"有哪一個申訴專線啊那在這個申訴表單裡面說我建議可不可以再優化優化的更接近 接近兒少的實用的生活習慣跟他們的語言讓他們更容易能夠的尋求協助"},{"start":7499.292,"end":7522.601,"text":"好不好可以嗎好沒問題我們請他持續的優化改進不是這樣子硬梆梆的只有要求你提供然後通報啦有些青少年青少女他們呢就已經不敢跟老師說也不敢跟家長說我想要尋求協助但是我碰到一個冷冰冰的一個申訴表單我跟你講連我都不知道該怎麼寫"},{"start":7523.922,"end":7550.292,"text":"對不對所以我認為這個可以更優化啦這是一定做得到的啦好不好最後啦保障兒少的權益隱私網路的隱私我一直在提我在4月2號也是在本委員會在質詢你我要求你的政策白皮書應該納入兒少保護的相關的一個內容跟宣示你們的決心跟未來的規劃"},{"start":7552.045,"end":7572.584,"text":"我講完不久就有其他媒體在4月25號說了NCC的白皮書兒少的網路隱私未入列那其實在你們之前白皮書的一些公聽會上跟相關的一個跟社會團體的溝通的場域裡面兒少及人權團體的代表就曾經提過意見啦"},{"start":7574.245,"end":7576.387,"text":"兒少應該是公聽會的重點但是沒有聽到更多的國際趨勢跟國際的最新的見解第二個美國兒童網路隱私保護法上路20多年了2.0版也在他們美國國會審議當中"},{"start":7589.099,"end":7606.303,"text":"這台灣可以參考可是到目前沒有看到而且兒少跟人權團體也說過建議可以先從軟法的形式來要求平台進行兒少影響評估落實兒童權利公約可是問題是我們到現在在NCC的政策白皮書裡面我們都沒有看到"},{"start":7608.846,"end":7617.156,"text":"根本包括在公聽會之後修正調整了嗎我們已經在整理已經整理了我們也會跟衛福部相關機關來討論說要如何適切的呈現"},{"start":7628.348,"end":7642.985,"text":"要多久的時間那我什麼時候可以看見在文組織法的部分屬於是重大的政策當然是重大政策啊所以要在委員會成立之後來處理但是目前的幕僚這個階段我們都持續在處理在整理"},{"start":7643.585,"end":7665.216,"text":"那好吧 委員會還沒有成立之前你總可以告訴我你的幕僚作業需要多久的時間吧你不會一直拖到說要委員會成立之後你才要做我們儘快 公立會的意見整理現在已經整理得差不多了我們可以提供資料給委員好 我希望最快的時間內可以看到你們整理出來的草案好 謝謝好 謝謝何新淳委員的執行"},{"start":7671.207,"end":7686.261,"text":"現在請廖先祥委員執行廖先祥委員執行完畢休息十分鐘謝謝主席喔那麼邀請我們陳代理主委好 陳代理主委"},{"start":7691.004,"end":7716.826,"text":"委員好請教一下今天還滿多的委員在關心NCC委員哪時候要提名要補的問題那之前其實在這邊也討論過啦您有說過這相關的權責不在你們身上嘛對不對那請教一下主委就是在我們NCC委員沒有補足的情況下我們NCC或是說您在推動業務的時候那目前有遇到哪一些實質上的困難"},{"start":7718.511,"end":7741.48,"text":"就是我們在組織法9條2項6款相關的處分案跟公告案許可案特別是處分案裡頭涉及業者經營權的得上邊跟部分我們沒辦法處理沒辦法處理但是沒辦法處理不代表說我們完全沒有處理我們只是說處理到上委員會以前的幕僚作業階段就是跑100公尺跑到90公尺剩下最後10公尺沒辦法跑大概是這樣子"},{"start":7742.16,"end":7768.276,"text":"所以就是會有一些業務確實委員沒有補齊的情況下造成我們NCC的一些業務他沒有辦法完全的去把它執行完那是不是也對主委造成一些困擾我們都是跟同仁大家一起努力盡可能在法律許可範圍內來維護廣大的收視聽眾的權益那主委你會不會期待行政院趕快把NCC的缺額把它補齊"},{"start":7769.82,"end":7785.77,"text":"我相信應該 業者跟大眾應該都蠻期待的都蠻期待的 您也很期待所以大家都在等行政院 您也在等行政院我們看法大概都一樣好 謝謝主委 那我就不為難你了那接下來我們看一個影片有沒有聲音而且也有字幕 你再播一次"},{"start":7802.984,"end":7831.997,"text":"主委您知道這個片段嗎?這是大概在前一兩天的一個政論節目知道因為王委員昨天有來函NCC是 那主委先不論你是不是NCC的主委啦或者是說可能你對於你在NCC待這麼久啦你對一些新聞節目或者是政論節目你可能都會自己有一些期待那你看到這一個節目的內容主持人有這樣子的發言你自己有怎樣的一個感想?"},{"start":7833.56,"end":7854.398,"text":"先不用扯到法令啦 你自己的感想我的感想是 政令節目本身它就是它的自由度空間比較大但是只要在不虛格 只要在沒有違反法令的前提之下其實主管機關我相信全世界都一樣都會尊重媒體的編輯自主跟言論自由"},{"start":7854.946,"end":7870.698,"text":"那你會樂見我們的台灣的新聞節目政論節目可能就針對特定的個案就預設立場性的未來要報表什麼然後來提出什麼批評我們對新聞的期待應該就是說我們的時事有什麼事情那我們的新聞媒體當然有它的權責 它有它的"},{"start":7873.56,"end":7883.308,"text":"權力在就是說他想要抱著哪一則新聞他要做怎樣的一個評論這是新聞媒體的自由但是在還沒有任何的事情發生的時候我的新聞就已經先告訴你我未來要針對某一個人去"},{"start":7889.008,"end":7909.823,"text":"多加的關注那關注完之後我不只是關注我要評論嘛我也不是客觀的評論我是要批評我要修理修理的意思應該是負面了吧我已經先預設立場了未來在針對這個人的新聞的時候出現我就是會報導我就是會批評不管他出現什麼樣的內容主委您期待我們台灣的媒體生態是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7911.617,"end":7917.92,"text":"我相信大家的共識都行之在法令裡頭吳廣法的施行細則13條說新聞報導或評論要注重客觀公正確實然後衛廣法22條說新聞評論要注重正確平衡品味"},{"start":7930.465,"end":7954.411,"text":"那如果他這邊有業者這邊做到有違反的話會經過民眾檢舉的話我們就會受理就會有一定的SOP來處理就比方說跟這一塊的話我們會促請他會提醒他違反事實查證會請他們業者的輪委會來先來表達意見然後來檢討我們再提供給我們我們內部受理完之後有進一步要往下走的話會到"},{"start":7955.771,"end":7976.863,"text":"對於修理這兩個字 主委聽起來您認同還是不認同在這個新聞評論的節目裡頭 我個人覺得常常聽到 我覺得這應該在事情還沒發生喔 還沒有說要報導什麼我就決定來修理你 這樣子是一個健康的媒體生態嗎"},{"start":7978.718,"end":7993.118,"text":"如果是純粹新聞報導我相信一般是不會出現 但是這是新聞評論節目他的自由度會比新聞報導要稍微大一點所以那這樣子主委您是贊同所有的政論節目都可以有預設立場來評論社會的事件"},{"start":7995.038,"end":8017.814,"text":"我們希望說他不要違法 不要違法 如果違法會有民眾檢舉我們就會來處理 好不好 拿出你的風骨啦拿出我們公務人員 拿出一個這個新聞媒體監理機關的一個主管機關的一個風骨啦那下一頁 其實類似的事情也不是沒出現過啦在108年的時候我們實際就針對中天新聞嘛"},{"start":8018.649,"end":8035.518,"text":"那時候我們就是對中天新聞對於某特定人物有違反公平的原則可能就是過度集中報導然後相關的報導都是你們認為評論沒有做好可能都是負面的一個批評所以你們發函給該家電視台"},{"start":8037.699,"end":8064.575,"text":"那希望他們維護觀眾視聽的權益那也對電視台祭出多項的一個裁罰這件事情那時候您在NCC嗎是是嘛那如果說未來有相關的類似的情形不只是他現在只是宣示啦他會不會做我不知道如果他真的做了那節目那過度的集中報導那在報導之前已經先跟你講我都已經是預設立場了那你認為有沒有違反這第43條第二項"},{"start":8066.996,"end":8070.719,"text":"類似的一個情況幾點意見跟委員報告第一點這個剛剛講的關鍵字是他宣誓的宣誓跟後來會不會做跟當年的個案其實還是有落差的當年個案是在宣誓不違法啦假設真的做的情況下"},{"start":8083.851,"end":8105.684,"text":"假設是做了情況之下我們當然我們MCC自我拘束的錢一定會根據過往的慣例來處理那另外跟委員特別報告這個108年這個個案他還有個特別之處是他當年在103年換照案的時候有個付款付款裡頭是要請他好好處理他們的新聞內控的部分"},{"start":8106.064,"end":8130.021,"text":"他要設立一個獨立審查人他們那時候始終都沒有設立然後後來這個某些報導過於偏頗的情況之下那我們認定說你就是內控機制失靈因為我們我認為很多新聞台目前內控都是失靈但是這個機制當年這個案是他連付款的部分都沒有履行"},{"start":8130.492,"end":8151.164,"text":"好沒關係那就主委好不好就拿出我們主管機關的一個風骨那期待我們有一個公平公正的一個新聞環境我們尊重尊重這個評論的自由報導的自由但是如果是惡意性的一個報復或者是已經預設立場的一些相關評論的話我覺得這不是我們國人所樂見的以上謝謝委員指導好謝謝廖先祥委員的執行現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8178.664,"end":8183.946,"text":"韓國獨立公園"},{"start":8196.904,"end":8197.904,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8224.939,"end":8226.36,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":8247.478,"end":8247.578,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":8266.971,"end":8278.712,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8279.804,"end":8297.261,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8301.342,"end":8302.943,"text":"在中午"},{"start":8334.426,"end":8339.731,"text":"這個花椒湯絕對不太適合你吃花椒湯的味道"},{"start":8360.98,"end":8361.661,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":8375.633,"end":8398.1,"text":"就是我們人做的一種工作是動態的我們現在不用做動態你們人員不起來就好 會有爭鬥的動態那樣的生意才能做到能夠把你生意做好那樣的生意才能做到能夠把你生意做好 會有爭鬥的動態那樣的生意才能做到能夠把你生意做好"},{"start":8402.561,"end":8405.623,"text":"你不想不动吗?你不想不动吗?"},{"start":8427.272,"end":8427.572,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8473.58,"end":8475.202,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8476.483,"end":8476.783,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8501.971,"end":8501.991,"text":"好"},{"start":8531.018,"end":8531.359,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8541.241,"end":8541.861,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8570.508,"end":8570.528,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":8615.038,"end":8616.219,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":8628.708,"end":8645.345,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":8647.747,"end":8652.431,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":8668.865,"end":8669.485,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8696.322,"end":8697.103,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8725.708,"end":8740.771,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳的名字叫做雲林餐廳"},{"start":8754.571,"end":8778.806,"text":"好各位請就座現在請黃建豪委員執行好謝謝主席主席我們請NCC主委陳主委好陳代主委"},{"start":8783.234,"end":8790.328,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想今天大家也真的跟北溪一樣關切一下你們這NCC委員名單的部分我想這個換屆以來這2024年去年4月30號"},{"start":8794.571,"end":8815.258,"text":"第一次呈現人前提名的翁柏宗等四位政務組委員人選因為那個時候他之前行政院院長我們那時候立法院認為說應該要尊重新的院長提出新的名單所以在上一批的名單裡面大概11月30號整個上一次提名的這幾位都卸任了11月10號到期"},{"start":8816.4,"end":8837.003,"text":"我們看到卓榮泰院長上來之後在去年的11月28號我們這次全部都是搜尋中央社的新聞陸陸續報了幾次因為中央社畢竟是代表官方媒體的立場那從11月28號到現在第一次卓榮泰院長說緊鑼密鼓的偵詢中陸陸續講了幾次話那最近一次是"},{"start":8838.284,"end":8854.66,"text":"這個月的5月2號卓榮泰院長說人選已經確定可能下週公布我想5月2號的下週應該是5月9號前那今天已經5月28了距離11月28第一個距離11月28已經過了半年距離5月2號也過了26天左右已經快要4週了"},{"start":8858.243,"end":8875.329,"text":"我不知道這個主委對這個NCC名單委員名單有沒有什麼樣的消息有沒有什麼聽到什麼樣的可能性什麼時候才會提出來這個名單報告委員這邊無所知悉然後圈子範圍也不在NCC這邊所以這邊沒有特別評論"},{"start":8876.343,"end":8904.43,"text":"好 沒關係主委我不會特別為難你啦因為我以為你有消息了所以為什麼可以講出來呢因為你們今天送來的解凍報告裡面也包含了一項嘛就是這個一般行政中的政務人員待遇的預算的七分之四之前被凍結那你們今天提出要解凍那所以我比較好奇說你提解凍的同時是不是表示說這個不足的人選即將要提出來了所以你現在預先做了準備那如果毫無所惜那你這個解凍解凍完要放哪裡去"},{"start":8904.85,"end":8932.749,"text":"跟我們報告這個節奏條件是促請行政院趕快提名那我們已經做到促請這個動作我們有發函給人事總署人事總署也有轉函給行政院那邊所以我們就檢據資料在文書份報告裡頭來陳述說這個這個作為這個促請這個作為NCC已經已經到位了所以我們來來促請這個叫大會大委員會這邊好沒關係主委這是你的立場沒關係這個我想這樣啦因為待會可能也會來針對這部分的"},{"start":8934.91,"end":8954.026,"text":"解凍案來討論其他部分我沒有特別意見但針對這個我的建議是說我這邊表達一下我的意見就是真的如果這個七分之四的部分應該等你們先送至少先送名單嘛名單先送來了的同時可以解凍如果連名單都沒有然後我就解凍這我覺得"},{"start":8955.461,"end":8978.301,"text":"立場讓我們立場會很尷尬啦我現在解凍了那結果還是沒有名單那當初凍結理由其實還是存在啊好吧這是我的立場我跟主委先說明一下好沒關係我們先回到業務面喔主委這個人事部分就這樣子了反正這個我看主委你也沒辦法就是決定沒關係讓我們回到業務面啦我想大家還是很關心這個詐騙打詐的議題喔"},{"start":8981.38,"end":9000.787,"text":"之前我們諮詢的時候也提過很多次就是說包含說我們今天提出本期提出的修法裡面電信法第五條也針對也是這一類的這個二類電信的這個使用者那當然其中因為有最大宗就是所謂俗稱的外勞卡那他當然就是這個移工電話卡的部分"},{"start":9001.917,"end":9027.949,"text":"還有黑莓卡的部分那去年就講了說要依據這個新的打炸釋法來審查這些東西因為我們我國這個依據統計目前移工人數合法的照這個數 上面上的數據有83.3萬人那失聯移工估計有8萬人所以合計起來大概90萬人左右但是我們這個售出的所謂的移工電話卡裡面大概有221萬支門號"},{"start":9029.893,"end":9058.521,"text":"它的售出門號有兩百多萬那實際上在台灣的移工不管失聯還是登地在岸的也九十萬人而已所以表示說我們售出的電話卡二點多倍甚至高達快要三倍左右的這個數字通常它是單獨過來的嘛因為按照我現行法律來講他們是移工來台灣理論上都是單身或一個人過來那他理論上也不會有這麼多卡片所以去年頒布了所謂打詐釋法之後就講說要來清查所謂的這個"},{"start":9059.901,"end":9069.858,"text":"這些外 這個所謂移工使用預付卡的部分 那我想知道到底從去年到現在清查了多少 還有多少的這些移工卡在外面流通"},{"start":9070.506,"end":9090.509,"text":"好那跟我們報告我們剛剛講到重點就是因為在台灣境內的外籍人士跟持有的預付卡人數是有落差所以我們分階段來清查3月份以前我們清查一陣多號的那已經清查完畢那剛剛去年11月總共外籍的預付卡有223萬"},{"start":9091.73,"end":9117.264,"text":"那到4月底我們已經清查完103萬那委員會提到說已經停用多少我們已經停用了14萬然後只要他依據打造條例22條只要他已經促進或者預期拘留的部分我們會給他停止都停段的話然後其他的部分會請他重新來合資所以如果他資格不符我們也拒絕申請那拒絕申請的部分也有達到11.4萬"},{"start":9118.985,"end":9141.731,"text":"那持續會進行清查大概我們預計到八月以前會全部三大電信業都清查完畢那中華電信走比較快到六月份就清查完畢所以你剛剛提到目前為止清查了一百多萬那停用了這十幾萬大概占一成左右那剩下那八十幾萬是都合法的嗎還是說還在清查中我想了解這個事情還在清查當中所以這八十幾萬也未必他在境內對"},{"start":9144.704,"end":9169.158,"text":"這個實務上他有沒有在境內不是是一個一言可之的事實嗎這個問題在哪裡為什麼這八十幾萬對我們來講比如說我人現在在台灣還是我在國外是不是比如查我的護照很清楚可以很清楚知道說我人在哪裡嗎但是移工他們入境也是使用護照出入境那這八十幾萬還沒找到的原因還不能定案他是在國內繼續工作還是已經出境了的原因是什麼"},{"start":9170.281,"end":9190.875,"text":"根本回報主要原因是因為有的技術上的量能的問題因為我們查他原來在境內是只連到移民署的資料庫移民署資料庫本身他的作業系統白天比較忙怕會差許多影響他的怕他系統當掉所以會用比較深夜時段來查深夜時段來查也會有他的能量問題所以三大大概都會分開分時的處理"},{"start":9193.297,"end":9218.55,"text":"所以這個量能的部分會有一個限制所以我們大概會沒辦法一次都可以查多少量雖然我們有拜託過移民署那邊去擴容那他們也做了適度擴容所以現在的進度是達到說目前還可以繼續來走下去那未來部分如果他們有年度那邊會有擴容進一步完成的話那以後查詢的量能會更好 查的會更快"},{"start":9219.404,"end":9245.143,"text":"主委這個是這樣 因為這樣聽起來是跨部會啦所以我是希望說你們在行政院會的時候應該也要讓院長知道這個事實就是說你很認真的清查一百多萬那是因為量能關係你現在只能找到十幾萬那表示至少八十幾萬不對 應該是一百加八十幾的部分還在外面流通那我們當然希望量能夠提升 速度能夠加快嘛是不是移民署不管是網站的狀況也好還是人力也好 能夠配合這個案子來辦理因為這件事情"},{"start":9245.743,"end":9265.886,"text":"不是針對移工啊這件事情其實是針對打炸它的層級應該是相對比較高的應該在打炸條例之下我們去做這個事情要不然就不用訂打炸條例了嘛我們在行政院打炸的工作小組那邊在那邊有討論多時的那相關部會大概都有討論過有共識的情況下採取目前可行的措施來處理的"},{"start":9266.727,"end":9278.618,"text":"我們希望還是要加速 這剛好也配合了電信法第五條的修正二電信列管的部分 我想這是同樣的精神那我們希望這部分還是要加速啦 好不好好 我們要繼續努力 謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員的執行現在請喜智傑召委執行"},{"start":9293.783,"end":9317.021,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請主委好 陳代主委主委好 這個詐騙一向都是大家非常關心的議題那NCC對於詐騙的成果你覺得有沒有什麼成果或滿不滿意可以跟國人講一下"},{"start":9317.858,"end":9319.139,"text":"這個其實我在諮詢這邊也"},{"start":9343.116,"end":9358.902,"text":"講過了很多次那也希望說NCC可以更主動積極就是說從國外打來的詐騙電話要怎麼樣去把它攔阻下來那事實上我跟NCC要你們的"},{"start":9360.117,"end":9380.799,"text":"那個資料就是說從112年5月份陸續實施啦那已經降低了從五千萬通降到五百萬通這個數據是你們給我們的你們自己清楚嗎清楚"},{"start":9383.403,"end":9407.421,"text":"這個坦白講啦 要給你們鼓勵一下啦這個已經攔掉了近九成嘛 對不對但是民眾好像不是那麼清楚我們會來持續宣傳 因為詐騙集團他從國際來話那邊 只要被我們擋住之後他都流到其他的領域 比方說網路啊 或者社群媒體那邊"},{"start":9408.183,"end":9436.406,"text":"所以其實我要講的就是說今天我們有要求你們有做事然後也有一點成果那這個部分如果你沒有跟國人講國人不知道你們NCC有做這些事就像那個那個現在還有585萬通嘛那到目前為止不知道還有沒有在攔下更多啦那就這個部分是人工在"},{"start":9437.512,"end":9437.753,"text":"處理還是電腦在處理"},{"start":9440.895,"end":9468.466,"text":"有些是大部分是電腦自動處理比方說當初它是偽冒國內的行動電話那我們透過三家來查說這個客戶根本沒有出國不可能海外賣魚回來那邊自動就把它攔住掉那另外一些偽冒國內的事化國內的事化台北的電話怎麼可能從海外打回來這些是自然判斷邏輯不對的異常部分就直接在電腦端就設定好就把它攔住掉OK"},{"start":9469.346,"end":9480.404,"text":"所以你們藍調的通數我就說先給你們鼓勵這個你們要宣傳啦這個那個你在從那個出國回來在機場可以買一條菸"},{"start":9482.179,"end":9503.481,"text":"啊可以買那個一瓶酒其他的不行對不對那國人大概都知道了嘛那你們其實有成功的攬下因為現在大部分的人民就覺得說反正我受到詐騙的話就很討厭然後就是政府沒做事這個就是一般就會人家人民就會這麼想嘛那當然就是說585萬通"},{"start":9506.035,"end":9521.798,"text":"坦白講還是很多很多很多啦那也是還是很多人民受騙啦所以就是說我們應該是分兩個部分來講就是說你今天有做事你必須要宣傳讓人民知道我們NCC幫忙做了多少事擋掉了多少的詐騙"},{"start":9523.463,"end":9534.49,"text":"那當然就針對這585萬通我們還有什麼機會可以再去改進再去減得更低我想這個就是一個態度嘛所以我是希望說你們剛剛說用電腦去阻攔的話那"},{"start":9538.837,"end":9564.23,"text":"因為你背後就是V2V2C嘛那C如果是說詐騙的民眾V如果是我們中華電信的這個hub然後原來的V是詐騙的集團那你今天這樣子一個處理的方式是不是有機會你把那個電腦的程式或者是在引進AI的學習模式可以把這個詐騙的"},{"start":9566.371,"end":9595.414,"text":"分類然後學習然後攔阻可以更有效率好這個部分我是建議NCC可以考量一下是那其實在簡訊的部分業者也要引入AI三大都有語音的部分他們也有適度的一些用AI的一些能力來處理OK那包括你們的語音的接聽警示啦接聽警示這個其實我是覺得還不錯啦那有沒有什麼你們覺得成果可以跟人民報告的"},{"start":9596.596,"end":9612.29,"text":"好 那其實在這個我們會適當的在適當的不管是FB還有相關部分我們會適當的就微音的指示部分就我們目前辦的一些努力部分來適當的對外揭露今天重點就是要跟NCC"},{"start":9613.551,"end":9631.897,"text":"討論就是說你要盡量去把你的成果跟需要精進的技巧然後可以在攔阻的問題這些做一個整理然後跟人民報告或者是做一個宣傳讓人民知道事實上真的有做的事情其實五千幾萬通費實在是很嚴重的"},{"start":9634.637,"end":9663.233,"text":"我都等到五百多萬通 也算有水準了啦當然五百多萬通對民眾來說 還很困擾啦要怎麼讓他錄影啦我是覺得這個部分 希望NCC也讓人民知道我們政府有在做事然後需要在精進的作為是什麼希望說這個可以思考一下好 精進作為部分我們主要是在網路電話這塊來處理我們目前也有做一些攔阻那未來也會做語音警示的來處理好 那再來就是那個"},{"start":9664.383,"end":9677.052,"text":"你們電信業務管理費就是上次的那個那部分我們現在322位目前已經有有80%已經完成退費了"},{"start":9677.964,"end":9704.086,"text":"好 因為時間差不多了 所以我再跟你們強調一次就是說你今天是公司的不收費嘛 對不對 公司的要收費嘛個人帶三個以上的要收費兩部以下的不用收費那你現在未來還有可能再增加的部分那你們這個機制我想你們也要把它訂一個合理的收費標準"},{"start":9705.282,"end":9716.877,"text":"是 我們現在同仁已經在嚴謹在進行所以我講的就是說你今天慢慢的有那個態度就是說你今天有做的今天有322個人退款已經退了沒"},{"start":9717.737,"end":9742.275,"text":"已經退了80% 80%已經退了有些是聯絡不到或是他的退款的帳號會有一些問題沒關係 這個我是要提醒你就是說這個算是NCC有改善的部分我們有要求有改善的部分那也確實有成果還沒有做完的趕快把它做完做完以後就是說可以跟民眾知道一下"},{"start":9743.018,"end":9768.446,"text":"然後再來就是說未來有可能再增加的部分你們要怎麼樣去防範怎麼樣去定一個更合理的標準我希望說這個部分也希望NCC可以考量今天質詢的兩個重點一個就是你們有做的讓人民知道要再改善的部分也讓人民知道你用什麼方法這兩個概念希望說NCC可以多講啦不要人家說你都沒做事情了了解我的意思嗎有做的就是要說啦好 謝謝"},{"start":9773.087,"end":9797.962,"text":"謝謝喜智傑召委的執行現在請習護魁委員執行謝謝主席有請陳代理主委好陳代主委委員好"},{"start":9799.001,"end":9825.296,"text":"主委長辛苦主委我想這個我們的這個國家通訊傳播委員會的委員空轉已經五個月了那當然我們知道行政院長主委院長最近有明確提出要這個確定人選的一個提案但是到目前為止還在等候名單那我想剛剛我們有許多的委員也都有特別關切這個事情"},{"start":9826.016,"end":9842.077,"text":"那所以我想我們還是期待行政院趕快提出名單但是也請我們藍白委員不要惡意杯葛啦這個沒有人就沒得做事啦我們也是盡快希望這個名單能夠確定之後然後整個讓我們整個監理制度整個"},{"start":9843.707,"end":9859.205,"text":"NCC的運作能夠正常順利但是到目前為止主委我們目前貴會剩下3席委員那這段時間面臨的一個實質決策跟一個推動的一個困難的問題我們怎麼去克服這些的狀況"},{"start":9860.458,"end":9888.551,"text":"就是我們在去年7月31號以前有修改了一些相關的授權規定就是在組織法9條2項6款的法律保留的事項之外我們有授權說在代理組委或委員會議無法組成情況之下一樣可以處理所以目前大概是我們就可以處理部分都持續來處理那不能處理委員會議保留事項部分我們也會請同仁一定要做到"},{"start":9889.631,"end":9916.452,"text":"上委員會前的幕僚階段的作業都要完成就像我一直跟外界舉的例子假設到委員會的是要跑100公尺我們都希望能跑到90公尺就是我們還是照這個該走的程序在進行然後到最後再來做處理啦是主委我想這個問題當然就是我們也是希望能夠盡快解決不過在於這個整個這個"},{"start":9919.781,"end":9938.132,"text":"櫃會確實在不管是交通部就是在這個整個內閣來講這個好像看起來是我們在野黨很有興趣的一個單位我想這個當然有一些的時空背景不過真的不能再拖延下去畢竟我們的背景很重要那另外我想針對這個"},{"start":9939.893,"end":9965.551,"text":"新聞更正跟答辯權的制度再請教一下主委主委我想我自己本身也是媒體出身那我認為新聞自由是民主的根本價值那所以說話的自由應該是雙向的不是只有單向的一個回應那目前我們的這個新聞更正跟答辯的一個制度多數仰賴於媒體的自律或是NCC的行政指導跟德國法國還是不一樣"},{"start":9966.371,"end":9972.922,"text":"那主委認為我們這個部分是不是應該參考歐陸的一個制度建立一個更明確的一個程序跟實現"},{"start":9974.416,"end":9998.515,"text":"跟人報告確實就是我們這部分其實在我們報告有提到這個權力就地部分其實有往前優化了那目前因為發動方都必須要是被報導人物這一塊在我們衛廣法44條有答辯的一些規範44條有更正的規範那如果覺得他的權力有受到損害在民事上其實也可以用衛廣法45條來做一些賠償損害的一些訴求處理"},{"start":10002.338,"end":10023.101,"text":"主委這點也是我覺得過去NCC一直會被攻擊、被質疑的點所以我覺得這個東西真的很重要要不然未來你們在執法上面人家總是找麻煩川某求是你們不管怎麼判、怎麼處理都會有問題所以應該是不是趕快把它制度化做一個比較明確的規範"},{"start":10024.248,"end":10045.938,"text":"有都是現在剛剛就是衛廣法有相關的規範倒是武廣那邊是相對應的比較沒有那麼明確那未來我們管理三法修法也就是會拉齊這兩部法的部分但是目前主要新聞頻道大概都是拿衛廣執照所以這邊大致上是比較沒有問題這規範都已經到位了"},{"start":10046.653,"end":10061.57,"text":"主委所以我還是建議一定要建立制度化公開化程序明確的一個更正跟答辯的機制這不斷是對媒體的一個保障也是對民眾的一個信賴對社會一個進步的一個象徵這點我想我們繼續來努力啦好"},{"start":10062.881,"end":10090.679,"text":"那另外最近媒體有報導中國的平台小紅書主委知道嗎?嗯 知道最近陸陸續續出現了我們空軍花蓮基地的一個部署的影片甚至有民眾在平台上也發現了大量的一個血統的一個正面的影像甚至有疑似的中國直播組在校門口拍攝的一個狀況我想這個不是單一事件這是很明顯一個數位徵收跟一個認知作戰的一個具體證據"},{"start":10092.14,"end":10115.289,"text":"主委我們目前有掌握相關的一個狀況嗎有 民營相關部會大概都有協力那這一塊因為主要涉及到國安體系的單位那也會也跟兩岸關係有關那我們都有跟這個相應的有相關主管機關都有保持一些聯繫那在通案上我們希望說這個平台那邊還有民進黨這邊必須要有這個正確的一些"},{"start":10117.41,"end":10125.764,"text":"素養的一些賠率然後素養上必須要不斷的提升才能避免這個思想想法裡頭被影響而不自知"},{"start":10127.201,"end":10155.59,"text":"因為這些平台已經不是單純的這個下載娛樂媒體的一個平台而是一些認知作戰甚至是惡意置入的一些處理的一個機制我想這就是很嚴重一個資訊戰的屠城木馬這點我想未來還是我們也會要求行政院必須跨部會來整合針對這樣的一個敵對平台的即時通報跟徹查的一個機制應該把一些軍事校園甚至交通的一些因素"},{"start":10156.05,"end":10181.298,"text":"要整個來調整來做一個因應主委認同嗎認同我們都有協定相關部會來做相關法定規範的一些自修訂的時候我們都有來參與處理主委另外我還是要再建議說我們NCC應該跟教育部要建立一個血統影像的一個保護方案然後甚至這個孩童的影像不得上傳到這個敵對的一個平台這部分有沒有做這樣的規劃"},{"start":10183.405,"end":10206.98,"text":"兒少的保護在我們NC族主管的在安慰部分有持續來進行民眾端的素養的賠率或侵蝕部分我們也有在處理那如果說是在間接轉入在廣播媒體部分那這部分我們也有相關一些法定規範既有的衛工業者來做一些處理"},{"start":10208.855,"end":10237.019,"text":"最後我想主委這個賴總統有在國安實習冊裡面的第七項有提到防範中共利用AI跟應用程式危害治安的一個嚴重的情形那我想我們還是要積極推動數位中介服務法尤其是針對有敵意來源的平台應該要有揭露義務這個來源標示跟一些退波的一些限制那我想這個尤其是我們的孩子絕對不是中國AI的練習樣板那台灣的社群生活"},{"start":10237.419,"end":10264.836,"text":"也不是一個統戰的練習場這點我想我們應該要正視這個國安的一個嚴重的問題好 最後一部分訴訟法我們先前外界比較缺乏共識但是我們在119年之後我們還是持續收集相關資料那未來我們會持續往這方面來不管是國際上的趨勢走向的一些研析跟對外的一些第三方或是公民團體一些溝通我們都有持續在進行"},{"start":10265.697,"end":10288.074,"text":"主委當然你如果又做了這些事情可能又會招致這個我們在野黨的委員會覺得你們又在做敵對的一個行為這點當然是很辛苦不過我們還是要堅持做對的事情這個該做還是要做所以109年之後比較急迫性目前都採分散私立法在兒少保護或相關的一些"},{"start":10289.615,"end":10313.261,"text":"放諸四海皆准的一些破戒的議題其實都已經在衛福部相關的法令有性剝削條例也好大概都已經完成立法對所以有做的事情也應該要積極宣傳這樣你們才知道NCC的定位在哪裡好這部分我們會來繼續加強好謝謝謝謝委員下一位登記質詢的委員林國成委員請林國成召委"},{"start":10321.67,"end":10346.073,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請陳代主委那個黃祖密也上來黃祖密黃祖密好 那個主委從早上到現在 除了因為我們有解凍案"},{"start":10347.148,"end":10354.716,"text":"跟我們的審法條那當然因為解凍案跟法條是一併來做巡打"},{"start":10355.714,"end":10378.08,"text":"那我在這裡所有看不管任何黨派都擔心的就是我們NCC的人事案的問題那這個人事案說實在的卓院長不管在院會不管他的執政我說實在基本上我對他人格是有所尊重"},{"start":10379.212,"end":10401.627,"text":"可是針對NCC人事案已經跳票兩次到現在已經三次我是對他這些貴為中華民國的行政院長他是有一點打折扣所以當然為什麼我把祖密邀請上來有時候"},{"start":10402.864,"end":10423.496,"text":"理事幕僚長在這個部分要提供給行政院讓卓院長知道這些非常重要人事案非常重要這裡面比較質疑的就是原來在陳院長提的"},{"start":10425.733,"end":10451.866,"text":"這翁伯忠等三位這個公文還沒有撤我有一段時間想一想要把這些人事案來排這個排下去啊是給行政院打臉給賴政府打臉這個問題這麼簡單的是應該撤的就要撤可是據我了解這除了翁伯忠代主委之外"},{"start":10452.932,"end":10477.754,"text":"那其他有三位委員只剩下一個沒有辭職師兩個都已經辭職了那這個事態這麼嚴重那為什麼行政院到現在為止他都不提那一天到晚就在指責在野黨不支持NCC其實我們將心比心"},{"start":10479.434,"end":10494.242,"text":"今天的問題是行政院的問題為什麼沒有人怪你因為提名權不是你但是你也是啞巴吃翻臉啊不敢講可是我今天透過執行我要呼籲行政院"},{"start":10495.322,"end":10522.842,"text":"NCC現在準備功能雖然可以執行但是決策功能無法發揮這是非常重要的所以早上我們同仁也問你了也就是說我們該決策的這些會議無法做決策這個是我們NCC現在最頭痛的一個問題"},{"start":10524.127,"end":10545.164,"text":"那在這裡我特別還是要呼籲行政院人事案原來的你認為不妥或者新的委員那當然要盡快去提所以不要一天到晚就罵在野黨在杯葛NCC其實NCC這些解凍案或者這些法條"},{"start":10546.465,"end":10568.791,"text":"拜託我們都很支持是我們主動是我們主動來做所以我還是希望行政院要把這個問題當成正式的一個非常急迫刻不容緩的人事案要盡快那當然這個沒有在指責主委跟主秘的意思因為"},{"start":10569.631,"end":10593.805,"text":"你也是聽命以行事但是最起碼的話下情上打讓上面知道很迫切的需要所以今天你的報告有10點是沒有這個不足法定程序的這些委員會你無法去開那另外一個我是覺得啦齁這個當然戴主委你就可以"},{"start":10594.673,"end":10622.695,"text":"表示意見了 第一個 你認為你在代理這段時間你認為 你有沒有政治性 有沒有我們都依法行政 依法行政我說實在啦 你在代理這段時間 你確確實實是有在依法做事啦但是跟過去的主委政治性太強"},{"start":10624.822,"end":10630.507,"text":"這種東西是有天然之北那我就搞不清楚啦那行政院為什麼"},{"start":10631.81,"end":10658.764,"text":"解決這個問題很簡單啊再補一個送進來立法院不會去反對這些然後主委就把它爭取這個問題就解決嘛這個問題解決我就覺得行政院難道都不曉得嗎我跟你講NCC本來就是國家國家通信的一個主要的獨立單位所以我還是要請主秘"},{"start":10659.924,"end":10687.993,"text":"還有主委要把這個問題要把它但是我還是要勉勵我們代主委行政中立非常重要該做的也要做這個我想特別要勉勵我們代主委這個部分要繼續下去不管待多久啦我是覺得那個要解決這個問題我剛才也解了你就可以爭除各可以解決補一個人我相信我們立法院不會說連一個都不會過嘛"},{"start":10689.733,"end":10712.91,"text":"但是這些東西我還是要正式跟卓院長呼籲這個問題可以解決的不要一直啊 沾一個管啦 我說實在這樣怎麼執政另外一個我還是要呼籲啊我們拜主委啊就是就是因為NCC是一個"},{"start":10714.355,"end":10735.075,"text":"非常重要的單位尤其媒體啊廣播啊等等這些你們那個第二張了跳過來了好這個NCC的監督媒體不要只有靠臉書來花文主委你認為不管是5月19號或5月21號你們這些在臉書花文"},{"start":10740.612,"end":10768.369,"text":"像這個三峽這個案子寫零零的這些圖片啊或等等這些東西你們有沒有考慮以後臉書一種公文書一種你們不要只有花臉書你們事後有沒有補公文書啊跟我們回報其實我們跟他的工協會跟衛星公關那些其實都一直密切聯繫這些大概事前的非正式的通知提醒大概都有做"},{"start":10769.318,"end":10780.186,"text":"你們現在有沒有公文書我要呼籲你臉書是一種公文書是一種不管你臉書或者媒體你怎麼做"},{"start":10781.678,"end":10800.947,"text":"行政單位尤其我們獨立單位監督單位行政公文書才有憑有據這個部分我要勉勵主委不管怎麼樣來不及做最迅速是用臉書用其他的媒體的的公告但最起碼公文書都要"},{"start":10802.587,"end":10826.798,"text":"都要補來 這樣的話我們的立場 我們的行政立場才會認為較為完善的東西 也比較正式啦主委 你知道嗎我知道 但是他的自立規範其實我們都有檢視過那也有一些在那裡特殊的報導的一些自立規範我們都認為說他人平常都是必須要落實那我們看到重大事件之後 我們會再次提醒"},{"start":10827.588,"end":10852.636,"text":"好 這個我還是希望啦 不能只靠臉書好不好所以我認為啊 我認為這個新聞的智力就像你在答覆我們這些委員在答覆的時候其實當機立斷依照你們的職權 該處分的就該處分該就證的就就證 該讓他說明的就說明不要在那邊模擬兩可 不要遇到綠色電視台你們都不敢作為"},{"start":10853.717,"end":10869.854,"text":"你不管什麼台只要違反你的規定只要碰觸你們的紅線該做的 要做這個才是NCC的立場對 我們目前就是 不分顏色啦都是該依法行政 該怎麼處理就怎麼處理好 這個我還是要勉勵啦 好不好 主委"},{"start":10884.602,"end":10899.333,"text":"好 現在接下來我們邱若驊委員執行謝謝主席 主席有請陳代主委好 陳代主委"},{"start":10904.934,"end":10918.372,"text":"主委好主委想先請教您幾個簡單的問題嘛您目前使用的是5G還是4G使用5G是吃不到飽的費率嗎目前是用吃到飽的費率那每個月的費率多少錢"},{"start":10919.715,"end":10935.546,"text":"這部分因為是公務手機好像是一千多塊吧一千多塊那有遇到限速的情形嗎在使用中使用的時候它的方案有好幾種我的部分好像是沒有限速的完全沒有限速那您自己在實際使用上您覺得5G跟4G它的差別大嗎"},{"start":10936.943,"end":10951.805,"text":"在速度上在大寬頻這一塊它是比4G要好沒錯是 因為本席今天先問主委這幾個問題是要跟您討論就是我國5G的推動它實際的進展還有使用者的感受嘛"},{"start":10952.285,"end":10977.986,"text":"那5G通訊在2020年7月1號正式開通那到現在將近5年了那根據SCC2024年第4季的行動通訊市場統計全國5G的用戶數有1000多萬1016.5萬戶那主委請問您這1000多萬戶有多少是不限數真正吃到飽的使用者您知道嗎這邊我不是很清楚我要請我們副處長看看他手上有沒有資料OK 好"},{"start":10982.072,"end":11008.128,"text":"報告委員因為這個是依據使用者習慣那我們大概知道現在目前在大部分人還是用吃到飽部分還是選擇4G為主那5G吃到飽就是一些比較比如說商用或者是他個人所以這樣子看下來不限速真正吃到飽的使用者我們是沒有辦法去做統計嗎那這個用戶中那您知道就是有包含5G限速的方案用戶有多少嗎是不是有包含"},{"start":11009.659,"end":11039.059,"text":"就是統計我們這個統計整體的5G那當然就是這個包含包含限數或不限數都含在這5G裡面那至於要不要再區分那個細節的部分這我們可能在另外再跟業者在做討論好我是聶本信也看到另外一份報告我們目前台灣4G的用戶有1952.9萬戶那比5G多出了936.4萬戶那我們可以看到這落差非常大嘛那5G都已經"},{"start":11040.319,"end":11068.353,"text":"推動快五年了那到底說應該會逐漸取代4G那事實上我們沒有看到我們沒有看到它有明顯的成長那主委您認為造成5G用戶它的用戶數始終沒有辦法突破是因為什麼原因最主要原因是因為5G的Killer application目前還沒有還沒有很明顯的這個這個這個殺手的應用沒有出現所以4G它的供應器一般上網供應器對它而言落差沒有很大所以一般"},{"start":11069.053,"end":11080.548,"text":"提到是這個application那你有沒有想過是因為資費太高還是限數太多或者是用戶他實際體驗他覺得這個體驗感受不是很好還是基礎我們基礎的建設未來還有預期您是怎麼看"},{"start":11082.631,"end":11106.246,"text":"支費是一個原因但是因為當初他們競標也是花了天價來競標那也會對應到他們網路建設的成本的一些反應那這邊主要還是5G因為很多都是購機專案您剛才提到就是因為您目前使用的是公務手機您不知道實際的支費是多少那目前赤道堡是1399那您知道4G的赤道堡費率大概是多少錢嗎"},{"start":11108.3,"end":11133.942,"text":"早期也是差不多但是相對比較低都是1000塊以下現在5G的費率幾乎是4G的兩倍那通常就是600多塊的區間那我們可以看到5G它的評估它競標是在2020年2月21號完成那主委您知道第一階段的競標總金額是多少嗎我印象中好像競標金額好像是1000多萬"},{"start":11136.264,"end":11148.915,"text":"差多了是1380億當時的競標金額是口誤那第二階段的競標金額您大概知道是多少錢嗎我是一階段二階段加起來好像是都是有所的天價"},{"start":11149.747,"end":11155.711,"text":"是那第二階段那當時是41.1億所以說這個總金額是1400多億那當時在109年的時候中央政府總預算NCC當時編列僅編列了440億作為市照的稅錄那實際上他收了超過三倍是1400"},{"start":11172.02,"end":11194.752,"text":"21億.91億1421.91億這代表政府從這場四兆的競標中超收了980多億那本席要提醒主委喔那在2020年的時候立法院就委員提出說要求NCC延億是否可以將這筆巨額回饋給全民包含降低費率喔那我們可以看到當時提案的委員那我們看到距今超過五年了那NCC有沒有再做後續的討論"},{"start":11195.952,"end":11211.002,"text":"其實有後來就是有用另類轉換的方式來處理比方說請業者來加強這個偏鄉或中大建設的一些經濟台建設那這一塊後來移到數位部那邊去就是後來有分三級的前瞻建設那邊主要就是"},{"start":11212.043,"end":11229.82,"text":"主要是這個標準的一些回饋使用者的一些落實處理偏鄉基地台還有重要交通設施的基地台所以您是說目前都是速發部在做的嗎對 今年應該是前瞻第三極的最後一年"},{"start":11230.521,"end":11255.535,"text":"那當時蔡政府所通過的前瞻他的基礎建設特別預算是八千八百億嘛那這八千八百億當中有多少是用來補助電信業者建置5G基地台您知道嗎想去說不說我現在忘了大概我印象中印象中這個偏向基站是相對少一點其他應該接近可以看到總共是一百五十五億啊這些都是"},{"start":11256.936,"end":11283.297,"text":"納稅人的錢那有沒有那NCC後來有沒有去監督有沒有去落實就是協助電信業者加速部件5G的基地台在數位部成立以前是NCC的職權那一塊我們大概有做的第一期的部分第二期之後就數位部成立之後就移到數位部來處理了所以現在完全都不在NCC這邊嗎都是蘇巴部嗎對 數位部任訓師OK好那也那本席知道了那本席也會再持續追蹤這個議題OK好謝謝主"},{"start":11288.323,"end":11308.405,"text":"謝謝邱若驊委員的執行鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在羅明才 羅明才 羅明才委員不在蘇清前 蘇清前 蘇清前委員不在現在請林業勤委員執行"},{"start":11320.873,"end":11347.704,"text":"請麻煩我們的陳代理好 陳代主委主委好 午安好我知道今天事實上是審法案啦但我有一個很重要的問題想要來就教於主委所以我今天要問的是NCC的網傳辦公室具體的政策目標跟計畫成果在哪裡還安慰法人化的進度呢"},{"start":11349.073,"end":11374.393,"text":"好 那跟委員回答這個我們在113年4月14日網準辦公室成立那我們訂定了五個目標第一個是促進多方利害關係人共識治理模式第二個是促進平台業者之力第三個是協助政府機關來共同維護好 等一下我也會讓你有機會再細講我會這樣子問是因為今年1月底就媒體的報導說"},{"start":11376.514,"end":11391.289,"text":"前任的陳耀祥主委有提到確定要做要將iWIN法人化因為原本兒少全法第46條本來就是為了防止兒少接觸有害身心健康的網路內容的有要求"},{"start":11392.57,"end":11402.518,"text":"要有一個內容防護機構所以目前委託台北市電腦工會去做這個iWIN就是現在的iWIN那陳謙主委表示說現行委託的經費雖然有1520萬元但這樣的經費抓緊見軸"},{"start":11409.464,"end":11433.862,"text":"雖然iWIN目前是由台北市電腦工會來承辦效果不錯可是長期下來不利於整個的傳承所以為了形成一個網路共同治理的長期長遠的架構NCC在2023年4月成立了網際網路網傳辦公室也預計要將iWIN財團法律化所以主委我想問你說你同不同意這個政策的延續"},{"start":11435.331,"end":11459.065,"text":"我們同意因為目前網路那你同意的話那這個同意的話那艾問的財團法人立法目前有沒有進度啊我們在院裡頭報給行政院知道院裡頭有一些要我們收集相關部會的回饋意見來做一些處理那目前還在跟這方面的意見的一些釐清跟協調處理當中"},{"start":11461.127,"end":11480.169,"text":"不過網傳辦公室從2023年成立到現在兩年多成立之後到底要做什麼呢所以前面我們大家就提到2023年4月去成立網傳辦公室根據你們NCC你們自己給我的報告網傳辦公室依據這些口號性的三大願景四大"},{"start":11480.609,"end":11508.17,"text":"理念跟五大目標在運作那想問兩年了因為你們的同仁也來我們辦公室我請他去說明結果他說你們主要內容只有網路政策研究可是列了又這麼多的項目最後跟我講說只有網路政策研究所以那我就回來先單純問網路政策研究現在有沒有什麼具體的研究成果還有有什麼重大方面的規劃跟進展要"},{"start":11508.931,"end":11531.625,"text":"有提報到行政院這個成果到底是什麼其實我們突然反映的只是一部分我們目前比較具體的有很多比方說我們跟衛福部合作自殺防制專線今年3月14日上線那今年也會再增加一個網路新聞的申訴的部分的處理那未來相關部會的其他申訴我們也會慢慢納入"},{"start":11532.125,"end":11558.859,"text":"那另外在國際參與部分我們也加入這個Gossip就是然後第三個部分我們也在跟韓國跟數位部一起來簽訂這個打擊數位性犯罪的共同聲明那其他部分宣導對業者端對民眾端我們都有持續在辦主委你剛剛有提到你們現在已經有跟韓國簽訂了嗎就我知道我們目前一直從警政或者衛福部那邊都還知道說韓國這一塊還沒有簽訂所以你現在確定"},{"start":11560.64,"end":11584.374,"text":"是共同聲明 是有 已經發生過為什麼我會問說具體的研究成果 延續上一頁你們網傳辦公室究竟跟iWIN的分工到底是什麼因為目前你們還是委託因為我在上任前就有問說你們當初成立網傳辦公室是一個搭iWIN的概念"},{"start":11585.354,"end":11600.028,"text":"獲得40人的編制喔還說未來是要規劃要取代iWIN的功能喔就不會有各部會要出資委託iWIN的情況像iWIN事實上是有經濟部衛福部教育部你們通傳會跟內政部都委託他們"},{"start":11601.13,"end":11622.591,"text":"可是他編制只有13個人可是相對的這些他的有些工作內容你現在要提這個網傳辦公室甚至以後要大IWIN的概念上的話那這一工作內容是不是跟IWIN還有速發部是高度重疊可是IWIN現在用13個人來接受了五部會的一個委託他經費只有1500萬可是做的"},{"start":11624.773,"end":11645.422,"text":"iWIN做的是這樣包山包海跟你們比你網傳辦公室還要多很多你們又一直說跟跟我們辦公室報告說你們不能成為兒少網路管理的主管機關主則單位要分散到各部會區所以想問你們這個定位你們到底對你們的網傳辦公室定位甚至iWIN的定位到底是什麼"},{"start":11645.865,"end":11673.563,"text":"好 簡單跟委員回報幾點 第一點IWINT它主要的權責是兒少的保護是那個兒少法46條那我們這邊網傳辦公室的範圍是更廣是在我們組織法裡頭規定說我們要做對網際網路政策相關的網際網路傳播政策的相關的一些研修所以主委我這一篇列的六項都是你們的工作內容嗎因為上次你們工作同仁來我們辦公室講說你們只有"},{"start":11674.463,"end":11688.337,"text":"只在做網路研究網路政策研究那現在我再度的跟你確認這六項都是你的工作內容嗎有去促進網路平台業者自律嗎有那我覺得會後"},{"start":11689.938,"end":11715.514,"text":"拜託請你們這邊提供我資料所以我要求就是NCC在一週內提出網際辦公室編制內40人的具體工作內容跟分工是什麼還提出我們的網傳辦公室已經做了哪些計畫跟成果因為兩年了嘛還未來你們具體政策目標跟預計成效然後一個月內提出IWIN法人化的進度有沒有辦法"},{"start":11717.295,"end":11720.277,"text":"我們會提出順利報告好 謝謝主委謝謝委員好 謝謝林業勤執行鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員 委員不在"},{"start":11735.063,"end":11750.991,"text":"林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員不在王宏威 王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在游皓 游皓 游皓委員不在蔡依儀 蔡依儀 蔡依儀委員不在"},{"start":11755.959,"end":11774.392,"text":"現在登記執行委員經已發言完畢 作以下決定報告及尋答委員完畢委員游浩 王宏威 所提書面執行列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":11775.453,"end":11792.827,"text":"委員對執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請國家通信傳播委員會儘速以書面答覆休息五分鐘"},{"start":11980.202,"end":11992.479,"text":"好 各位請就座好 現在處理討論事項 預算解凍案 既有兩案 請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":11995.516,"end":12020.111,"text":"討論事項一審查一百一四年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結案計二案國家通訊傳播委員會函減送該會一二一新增決議十八政務人員待遇預算凍結七分之四案二新增決議二十五業務費預算凍結百分之十案宣讀完畢好現在有一個提案請宣讀"},{"start":12023.083,"end":12051.048,"text":"提案有關國家通訊傳播委員會政務人員待遇預算凍結七分之四案因行政院尚未將提名委員名單重新送至立法院審查原本案是國家通訊傳播委員會人事同意案送達立法院並經立法院院會完成審查程序後及同意動之提案人委員林國成等宣讀完畢好各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":12052.25,"end":12073.211,"text":"好沒有意見本案做下列的決議通過提案並提報宴會國家通信傳播委員會人事同意權送達立法院並經立法院會完成審查程序後及"},{"start":12074.42,"end":12102.182,"text":"即同意動之即同意動之那對第一案有沒有意見好沒有意見我們先讀第二案第二案宣讀過第二案宣讀過好那第二案有沒有意見好沒有意見的話本案作以下結議同意動之提報宴會好以上這兩案有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就這兩案"},{"start":12104.5,"end":12111.295,"text":"好現在進行電信管理法修正草案的逐條審查現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":12117.011,"end":12146.046,"text":"定性管理法修正草案共五案條文對照表台灣民眾黨團體案第五條第一項序文將中斷前有下列行為之一者等文字予以刪除第一款字第四款並予以刪除然後徵定第二項文件內容違反前線規定為向主管機關辦理定性事業之登記者由中央主管機關處新台幣一百萬元以上一千萬元以下罰款"},{"start":12147.046,"end":12164.539,"text":"並通知限期改正 藉其人未改正者的安次處罰並勒令中斷服務主委三修正外其餘文字同性情條文委員黃健豪等提案第五條第一項的序文墨據徵定未辦理電信事業登記者視為電信"},{"start":12167.477,"end":12176.68,"text":"視為電信事業等文字並徵訂第五款至第七款文字內容為5經營虛擬行動網路服務6轉售使用智慧虛擬碼及物聯網"},{"start":12183.29,"end":12210.804,"text":"號碼以外之用戶號碼其使用他電信事業提供之無線電頻率政令第二項原依電信法許可之第二類電信事業或利用行動寬頻專用電信網路連接公眾電信網路者主管機關得指定其為電信事業之登記並准用前項之規定處以三修正外其文字同性情條文"},{"start":12211.204,"end":12235.6,"text":"委員中加兵等提案第五條增訂第五項字第七項以及增訂第二項及第三項文字內容為五經營虛擬行動網路服務六轉售使用智慧虛擬碼及物聯網號碼以外之用戶號碼及銷售境外事業所提供之語音及數據等公眾"},{"start":12237.779,"end":12265.759,"text":"等公眾通訊之服務利用公眾電信網路經營網際網路接取服務者或其他提供電信服務之事業主管機關得指定其為電信事業之登記並準用前項規定應辦理電信事業登記者非經登記不得提供電信服務或銷售竟為事業所提供自語言及數據等公眾通訊之服務"},{"start":12267.455,"end":12275.185,"text":"委員黃健豪等提案第8條第1項至第4項均會修正統新型條文增訂第5項電信事業銷售用戶號碼應核對及登錄用戶資料"},{"start":12283.536,"end":12307.893,"text":"台民眾黨黨團提案 政定第八條 此一 定性失業應進行確認客戶身份程序並留存其確認客戶身份程序所得資料定性失業應針對高風險用戶加強集合 抽測及強化風險管理 必要時經相關機關通知後依契約停止中斷服務 定性確認客戶身份程序所得資料應至業務關係終止時起"},{"start":12310.515,"end":12325.601,"text":"至少保存五年但法律令有較長保存期間規定者從其規定並向確認客戶身份範圍留存確認資料之範圍程序方式及家長客戶審查之範圍程序方式的辦法由中央"},{"start":12326.241,"end":12344.827,"text":"主管機關定職違反第一項第三項規定第三項規定及第四項所定辦法者由中央主管機關處電線事業新台幣一百萬元以上六百萬元以下罰款並通知現期改正借其人為改正者得按次處罰台灣民眾黨黨團提案第九條"},{"start":12347.796,"end":12364.608,"text":"第四項後段增訂網路流量記錄以及增訂第五項第六項文字內容為前線所稱之網路流量記錄指電信失業或設置公眾電信網路者提供電信服務後所產生之發送"},{"start":12365.566,"end":12376.523,"text":"方語接收方知網際網路位置通訊且其時間通訊付協定封包大小及數量參選與回應之網域名稱系統"},{"start":12380.461,"end":12404.321,"text":"及其域名稱解析器與域名式服務器協力查詢資料等未涉及通訊內容資紀錄並以公眾電信網路性能可與提供者為限傾向網路流量紀錄之保存期間方式保存資料範圍收費方式及其他相關事項的辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":12407.714,"end":12425.222,"text":"委員中嘉賓等提案第九條第一項字第四項均為修正同線型條文 增訂第五項電信事業或銷售境外所提供之語音及數據等供公眾、通信服務之經營者、銷售用戶、號碼、銀河對及登錄用戶資料"},{"start":12430.748,"end":12449.591,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第40條第4項的第7款後段增訂網路流量記錄等文字以及第2項的第6款後段也是增訂網路流量記錄等文字除以上修正外均同新型條文"},{"start":12450.953,"end":12475.284,"text":"委員陳俊儀等提案第75條除第一項的序文前段罰款修正為100萬元以上1000萬元以下外其餘文字均同進行條文委員黃建豪等提案第79條第一項徵訂"},{"start":12480.233,"end":12498.677,"text":"第25款違反第5條第1項規定為向主管機關辦理電信室登記第26 增訂26違反第8條第5項規定為核對集登錄用戶資料其文字同新型條文 委員中介兵等提案第79條第1項也是增訂第"},{"start":12505.042,"end":12519.153,"text":"第25款違反第5條規定為向主管機關辦理電信事業登記中間第26款違反第9條第5項規定為何對及登錄用戶資料其文字同信型條文宣布完畢"},{"start":12523.855,"end":12548.632,"text":"現在進行協商除了各版本及修正動議國家通信傳播委員會也有送建議的條文審查時也請大家一併參考並列公報記錄那現在開始處理條文的部分第五條有修正動議現在請先讀修正動議"},{"start":12558.86,"end":12584.322,"text":"修正動議一提案人委員何新泉等第五條對照委員鍾嘉斌等提案在第一項的第七款修正為銷售境外電信事業所提供之國際漫遊貨行動通信服務整項第八款文字內容為八提供境外電信事業用戶國際漫遊服務第三項修正為應辦理電信事業登記者"},{"start":12586.784,"end":12596.73,"text":"被禁登記不得提供或銷售電信服務修正動議二委員黃敬豪等"},{"start":12598.137,"end":12615.577,"text":"提案以及修正動議四提案人委員許智傑等第五條對照現行條文徵令第二項至第四項文字內容為提供下列電信服務者應向主管機關辦理電信事業之登記一向獲"},{"start":12616.818,"end":12634.431,"text":"合配用戶號碼自電信事業以批發方式成豬或成狗搭配用戶號碼自電信服務並以自己名義向用戶販售服務而提供用戶接取網際網路服務請向第二款應登記為電信事業者主管機關考量"},{"start":12635.532,"end":12653.273,"text":"电信服务营业额用户数及其他因素得为分级管理本法中华民国某年某月某日修正之条文施行前已提供第二项各款服务则应于施行之日起一年内向主管机关办理电信事业登记宣读完毕"},{"start":12654.892,"end":12681.148,"text":"好現在在場黃建豪委員提案跟修正說明好謝謝主席本席提了這個修正東西第五條第一個大家原則上已經跟NCC後來有在說明跟公開過因為本來提的條文內容比較複雜但是他的阻止目的就是希望說要去阻去阻絕本來在原定法律裡面那些轉售或使用用戶號碼的這些行為他沒有明確的法源依據跟規範所以我"},{"start":12683.109,"end":12709.494,"text":"本来修正第五条的目的在这边所以后来ATC有来公众他们提出的版本那我提出修正东西目的也是一样就说针对这种批发式的就是二类电信在把门号再转售出去之后我总是要能够找到自然人好这个精神在这边所以把这个东西把它放进去那另外就是提供所谓的网际网路服务的这个业者也应该纳入管理所以整个的条文的修正的精神跟他的"},{"start":12710.154,"end":12733.023,"text":"文字就是往針對說不管是打電話的也好還是網際網路服務也好那只要使用到這種通訊服務的自然人我在未來在追在追蹤上在管理上都能夠找到這個最終的自然人以這個東西方向為目的來提出這個修正通營那這份條呢我想這個跟ECC也溝通過應該問題不大以上說明謝謝"},{"start":12734.79,"end":12754.376,"text":"好另外這個喜智傑委員也提修正了應該兩個都一樣啦來也請表示一點主要是這樣啦就是管理是必要的嘛但是不要無限上綱嘛所以拿捏到什麼程度希望說NCC把這個地方等一下也跟我們說明一下謝謝好來陳代主委"},{"start":12758.863,"end":12786.912,"text":"是的跟趙偉跟各位報告這個ISP的管理我們這邊新增了都是剛剛委員提案的部分我們是同意委員的提案分級管理那一塊因為ISP的業者的規模動態範圍非常大有三大電信重等級的也有這個幾百用戶的那依據現行的電管法他必須要提出一些網路設施計劃或者營運計劃等那他們的人力上或者"},{"start":12788.092,"end":12795.547,"text":"比例原則上我們不需要做一個分級管理來符合民眾的需求也比較務實一點這是我們初步的看法"},{"start":12799.096,"end":12818.136,"text":"那原則性就是因為我們原來的行政院沒有版本但是這兩個都跟你們溝通過了對不對那修正不管習志杰 昭緯 或者建豪提案的這個內容都大概一致那你原則性是同意用用這個修正動議的版本嗎"},{"start":12819.023,"end":12845.265,"text":"對我們沒有意見沒有意見好那我們第五條的部分就是黃建豪 趙黃建豪委員等五位提出修正動議以及喜智傑委員等三人修正動議的通過好不好好接下來好現在是第八條請各位翻開第八條"},{"start":12848.067,"end":12852.109,"text":"第八條是建豪委員等19位提案來請說明"},{"start":12876.671,"end":12889.826,"text":"好謝謝主席其實第八條是針對最後一項其實也是一樣跟第五條的精神是一樣主要針對說電信事業銷售的用戶號碼應該要核度及登錄用戶資料那因為前面那條是規範誰是電信事業嘛"},{"start":12891.468,"end":12913.295,"text":"那第八条就讲说因为过去对电信事业的这个规定的这个范围比较比较小那我现在把它扩大那是把电信事业的哪些哪些属电信事业在第五条规范清楚之后那这个电信事业在把号码卖出去之后那个过程里面应该要核对及登录用户资料那以利后续的管理跟查对以上说明谢谢好那个那个陈代主委"},{"start":12922.108,"end":12930.506,"text":"針對這部分的修正我們是由於在打造條例頭已經有規範要做QIC的一些措施那我們是建議這邊就可以不用重複再訂"},{"start":12933.229,"end":12956.133,"text":"說那個要維持延維持限制 打詐條例已經有了這不用修正建議不用修正那建豪勒建豪欸那個主委你們修正這個對你們執行商會有什麼困難嗎因為打詐條例他這個未接跟我們是直接定在法律裡面我想這不太一樣"},{"start":12958.43,"end":12971.686,"text":"打炸條例的罰則比較重一般應該是那邊有規範感覺上這邊就可以不用了打炸條例那裡面有把這個放進去嗎?有有有有放進去啦那個"},{"start":12974.99,"end":12996.053,"text":"如果說假設兩邊都有規定的話到時候突發起來然後原因哪邊的條會引起會引起會引起爭議了好因為打在條裡面法律比較重好準備我確認一下那個打在條裡面放你們講打在條裡面是放在哪一條提供提供給給那個然後他的那個是母法他是放在母法裡面嗎他是放在直接定在法條裡面還是定在執法裡面"},{"start":13003.605,"end":13028.808,"text":"15條達到條例15條達到條例本身都是法律的定性上都是法律那個可以吧好那就第8條不予修正維持現行條文好不好來接下來我們第8條之一主委"},{"start":13034.557,"end":13058.649,"text":"主委第八條之一的這一塊那其實因為也有相關的一些其他的規定已經有我們是建議說不用修正這個打炸條例也有沒有嘛你看一下如果沒有就用如果打炸條例裡面都已經有制定確定是有有沒有打炸條例有沒有"},{"start":13063.888,"end":13080.159,"text":"高風險就是打造條例第20條有打造條例的第20條不是變管法是打造條例第20條有規範高風險境外高風險電信事業的就HEMECA條款已經有"},{"start":13084.068,"end":13111.747,"text":"也是定在二十條裡面嗎我沒有跟黨團溝通過有是吧好那現在就是還是不以就不以增定好不好不以增定還是為此不以增定好不好那就第八條之一就不以增定來第九條有修正動議來請先讀"},{"start":13114.266,"end":13129.067,"text":"修正動力一提案人委員何新泉等第九條對照委員鍾嘉斌等提案在第五項的部分修正為電信事業提供或銷售電信服務應何對及登錄用戶資料"},{"start":13130.188,"end":13151.512,"text":"然後增訂第六項為電信事業提供非屬境外高風險電信業者用戶國際漫遊服務不受前項限制但詐欺犯罪犯罪危害防治條例另有規定者適用之宣讀完畢好來那個新竹沒有來齁來那個主委"},{"start":13153.374,"end":13162.421,"text":"跟趙偉跟委員報告這情況跟剛剛情況是類似就是QIC的部分在達在條例15條以後在境外高峰源黑莓卡條款部分在20、21條都已經有規範"},{"start":13166.455,"end":13186.638,"text":"這個打炸條例也有就對了就不需要重複就對好那就第九條不以修正維持線條穩這樣好不好各位委員好那就第九條第九條維持沿條穩第四十條"},{"start":13194.608,"end":13196.892,"text":"第十三頁來 第十三頁"},{"start":13198.462,"end":13224.378,"text":"好 這個也是台灣民眾黨所提的案子來 主委請說明是 那這一塊在通貿法的修正條文已經納入了上次詹惟主持的會議頭法務部代表也有肯定這一塊那應該說是我們委員是高章原則在通貿法修正前就提出這個概念但是現在通貿法已經進行修正它也是法律未接我們建議就是不用再修正好"},{"start":13225.32,"end":13227.029,"text":"那現在第40條"},{"start":13229.246,"end":13254.228,"text":"第四支條就不以修正維持現行條文這個要拜託主委這裡如果有通報法或者其他的打詐條例有要提供給原提案的單位讓他知道他提案的東西已經其他法例未接的法條已經放進去就不需要去重疊所以我建議這樣主秘你可能要做這個事"},{"start":13256.827,"end":13284.765,"text":"我們照辦好不好用這樣的話就人家提案出來他已經華其他的華麗未接有的麗華也是華麗未接嘛但是其他華已經涵蓋了就不需要再去增訂不然的話他說到時候提案你也不講清楚說為什麼不採納這樣就不好好不好好沒問題好那第40條第40條就不那個嘛"},{"start":13285.56,"end":13312.968,"text":"好第40條還是不以修正 為此原條文那接下來第75條陳俊宇等提案來 主委請說明這份就是俊宇委員他要提議說把那個發放額度拉高我們有跟他溝通過因為這邊我們這邊變管法本身也有連續法的處理那當時俊宇委員也同意說他同意可以不用修正"},{"start":13315.185,"end":13316.211,"text":"好 那個"},{"start":13318.308,"end":13341.275,"text":"那就不以修正維持原條文那還是一樣就是他提案以後哪一個華已經有把它納進去不要重複去立法這個還是要說明好不好好那就75條就是不以修正維持現行條文來現在接下來第79條有修正動議請宣讀"},{"start":13347.577,"end":13373.599,"text":"修正動議三提案人委員黃健豪等以及修正動議四提案人委員徐志傑等第七十九條對照新型條文在第一項的部分徵令第一款文字內容為依違反第五條第二項規定未向主管機關辦理電信事業之登記以下款次順移至第二十五款 確讀完畢"},{"start":13377.762,"end":13389.276,"text":"那個79條提案的建豪委員來請說明好謝謝主席基本上79條主要是調適更動之外那個是在25條75條25項的部分針對是違反所謂第5條第1項規定為向主管機關辦理電信事業登記的部分要處理"},{"start":13396.064,"end":13416.837,"text":"那但是有一個這個第26個部分是違反第8條第5項規定為何對其登錄用戶資料那如果我本來的修正老闆的修法裡面有第8條第5項規定嗎阿羅這項規定拿掉了那這個是不是就不存在還是說適用到那個打砸條例裡面就看要怎麼修對你這這這主要2526啦哎"},{"start":13420.93,"end":13425.258,"text":"現在也是提修正案人喜智傑召委"},{"start":13431.568,"end":13457.982,"text":"讓NCC表達一下意見來 那個請陳主委是 那跟趙偉跟委員報告因為現在前面第五條那邊已經有大家有公司的版本那現在我們是建議說這邊的罰則其實對應前面的第五條跟第八條 第九條那既然第八其他條都不修正的話我們會建議說這邊的罰則部分就回歸剛剛那個修正動議 許智傑 趙偉提的修正動議跟黃俊豪委員提的修正動議裡頭都對應的 79條那一部分就可以"},{"start":13461.434,"end":13476.314,"text":"就是兩個修正動議的79條用他的版本就一致了用他們兩個提的 他們兩個提的都一樣嘛就是同意用他們兩個修正動議的版本是不是這樣好那現在"},{"start":13477.489,"end":13504.776,"text":"那兩位沒有意見嘛 用你們的版本來第79條照黃建豪委員等五位修正動議以及喜智傑召委等三位修正動議版本來通過沒有意見嘛好那就79條應用那個用黃建豪喜智傑委員的修正動議版本好不好來通過"},{"start":13507.113,"end":13511.491,"text":"好接下來處理附帶結議部分 請先讀"},{"start":13516.357,"end":13544.796,"text":"附帶決議一電信管理法修正條文第五條施行後主管機關應考量業者既有之權利義務與法定負擔橫著比例原則、橫評原則參採業者意見與實際管理需要後訂定分級管理制度以落實對電信業者之管理提升打造效能並兼顧產業發展之所需提案人委員林國成等宣讀完畢"},{"start":13546.243,"end":13565.807,"text":"好 各位委員有沒有意見 來 那個陳主委遵照辦理 因為配合這五條的好 遵照辦理 那我們的互代結議就通過如有委員對於互代結議補簽列入紀錄並刊登公報好 那我們回主席"},{"start":13592.418,"end":13592.678,"text":"針對本日會議"},{"start":13614.672,"end":13632.411,"text":"協商完成做以下的宣告今日協商結論免予先讀授權議事人員整理作為結議列入紀錄針對本月會議法案部分做以下的結議一"},{"start":13634.295,"end":13644.305,"text":"病案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提報宴會討論 宴會討論前不需交由黨團協商 宴會討論時由您召集委員國層做補充說明"},{"start":13652.853,"end":13679.116,"text":"第二 請國家通信傳播委員會就審查結果通過條文如有補充立法說明請送交通委員會以便列入審查報告一併呈送立法院宴會第三 條次引述條文部分文字及法字用字"},{"start":13679.836,"end":13708.005,"text":"授權主席及議事人員整理現在休息明天上午9點繼續開會謝謝大家感謝我們陳主委所有的團隊謝謝感謝我們那個數位部各級長官以及列席所有的長官謝謝各位委員謝謝謝謝媒體朋友謝謝辛苦了我們休息"},{"start":13713.839,"end":13721.684,"text":"可以幫我幫忙嗎?可以啊可以啊"},{"start":13741.857,"end":13742.197,"text":"哎呦"},{"start":13753.669,"end":13764.478,"text":"謝謝你們辛苦了謝謝啊 兄弟 下午三點吧好 你往往挺佳的 確定 我也挺佳的今天真好玩 感染了 把一身心救了你們也太棒了 謝謝光臨就好玩謝謝"},{"start":13782.312,"end":13806.169,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"161975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f248ecbbbfb4b931a53b893ac8d10b5d33db291a8f6a096732cb70c920121590e455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:04:54 - 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謝謝代理主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長好 有請部長委員好部長請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申請持用中國大陸居住證嗎跟委員報告我應該沒有"},{"start":43.199,"end":68.456,"text":"應該沒有再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎我對國家一定是忠誠 毋庸置疑但是您應該沒有申領持用中國大陸居住證不太確定是嗎我再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎沒有"},{"start":70.711,"end":77.033,"text":"我再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎?您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎?謝謝委員 我對國家絕對是忠誠的我也沒有這一個在中國的任何的一個居住跟這一個身份證再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎?您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎?"},{"start":99.787,"end":121.839,"text":"跟委員報告我知道委員大概認為我們第一部長請您回答您是不是忠誠有沒有申領持用我的立場已經跟委員報告過我絕對是忠誠無庸置疑再問一次部長請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎"},{"start":124.036,"end":133.903,"text":"我對國家是忠誠的 也沒有申請居住證好 再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎跟委員報告 我對國家絕對是忠誠的 也沒有申請中國居留證部長 經過七次的詢問"},{"start":150.752,"end":161.101,"text":"請問您對國家的忠誠度有沒有變高?有變高嗎?同樣的問題問七次您感覺如何?公文報告教育部沒有調查七次"},{"start":163.186,"end":175.335,"text":"沒有調查什麼就是說對我們第一線上的這些國立的這個學校這個主管或者這個相關人員老師的一個調查我們只是把這個陸委會的這個資訊轉發給這個第一線上各縣市政府所以轉發就不是調查"},{"start":188.696,"end":205.421,"text":"在這個短話裡面我們當然中央有政策希望在整個讓老師們能夠有一個清楚的去重新再審視他到底有沒有這樣的一個部長您這樣的回答我真的不禁要問您是不是對陸委會忠誠沒有我想我們是你對陸委會忠誠嗎我對國家工程陸委會是為了"},{"start":213.874,"end":241.448,"text":"陸委會是中央的一個部會所有幾多跨部會的政策的合作當然我們依法行政部長您剛剛幾次的問答裡面有很多次的答案其實都不一樣啦我想我們可能還要問第八次第九次嗎為了清查軍公教是不是持有中國大陸身份證戶籍或相關證件中央各部會頻繁發文據了解有學校收到七份來自不同機關的公文"},{"start":242.248,"end":256.519,"text":"甚至有基層教師簽了七次竊結書啊拒絕書啊本席光是台在台上詢問您同樣的問題老實說啊都有一點覺得對您不太尊重"},{"start":257.239,"end":272.554,"text":"台下的眾人也感到荒謬可笑大家甚至笑出聲的是您第一次都還搞不清楚您到底有沒有中國大陸居住證面對各個部會的疲勞轟炸所有的基層教師有非常多人疲於奔命他們笑得出來嗎"},{"start":273.855,"end":284.603,"text":"消費部口口聲聲要說行政減量結果呢 現在完全不尊重專業變成施政提款機變成對其他部會忠誠 事實上 部長你剛剛有說你有轉文啊 這些同仁不需要回覆嗎不是說要去填寫嗎"},{"start":297.692,"end":317.365,"text":"陸委會 我們透過陸委會的這個轉文只有兩次第一次就是這個全面調查那第二次只是在提醒我們的這些第一線上的老師你是不是已經填答了 填答就不需要再不需要再回覆我給你時間啦 我剛剛沒有請你發言啦但是喔 我要問你啦"},{"start":321.668,"end":349.354,"text":"現在老師們收到這麼多次的詢問老師的權益老師的時間是不是教育部應該關心的當然是嘛那他們收到了七次拒絕書跟教育部有沒有關啊你說裡面只有兩次跟我有關您這樣態度對嗎跟委員報告我們當然感受有沒有關係這七次跟你們有沒有關係嘛你回答我有沒有關係跟他解釋我都聽過了如果這一個"},{"start":350.294,"end":355.527,"text":"是跨部會裡面造成第一線上老師的工作的負擔行政的干擾我想我們會來了解當然有關嘛所以部長請看"},{"start":361.643,"end":382.243,"text":"這個螢幕裡的公文你覺得熟悉嗎?這就是你們函轉行政人事總署轉至陸委會的公文內容要求 我真的不知道部長你有沒有看過啊要求公務員 各機關公務員不論平假日赴中國大陸 均應於赴陸前"},{"start":390.068,"end":399.574,"text":"請問部長我們要依法行政公立各級學校教育人員當中有哪些具有公務員的身份依規定要在賦入前提出申請您知不知道"},{"start":403.616,"end":420.668,"text":"賦入前要上這個登錄平台去登錄哪些人要啊哪些人要您知道嗎我目前來講這裡是全部公務員均需喔平日假日喔不分任何理由喔全部要許可誰誰需要公務員報告就是因為"},{"start":422.089,"end":439.297,"text":"現在兩岸是處於比較緊張的一個狀態對不起 部長我們要依法行政你要就依法法令是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣現在不是你覺得緊張你覺得不一樣就可以做這是你們轉文的陸委會的資訊請您看清楚第三點如果沒有兼任行政職務者無需依照許可辦法做申請或報准"},{"start":451.55,"end":480.718,"text":"你這份全部一竿子打盡什麼意思跟委員報告這個陸委會這個函子是希望說我們在我們在復錄的時候能夠依照規定來申請你這就違反他自己的規定嘛你們怎麼沒有保護好教師啊回到學校他的一個拆請規定那剛剛委員剛剛也有說明就是老師在兼任行政職的部分是有公務員服務法的一個適用我在這裡講的第三點是沒有的"},{"start":483.555,"end":507.529,"text":"老師是不是要去大陸地區這個部分要回到學校的一個採請規定我們只針對於這裡白紙黑字寫了內監行政職務者不需要嗎現在是怎麼樣我們兩岸關係很緊張閱讀中文都有問題了嗎所以我們在公文上面並沒有針對於所以現在是你現在直接講就是回歸學校各自學校辦理"},{"start":509.276,"end":526.281,"text":"我必須告訴各位我們現在這樣的做法已經逾越陸委會自己的台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例所規範的範圍有侵害人民隱私權甚至違反憲法保障人民居住及遷徙自由的可能請問部長啊"},{"start":530.637,"end":547.649,"text":"你們自己知不知道你們在做這件事啊這件事情你們剛剛說拆形系統登錄其實有很多公立學校在實際執行上面是有困難的因為有分有兼行政職沒有兼行政職我請問教育部有沒有向陸委會反映"},{"start":556.138,"end":572.226,"text":"各位報告這個部分還是我剛剛有強調就是說在學校端在學校端他針對出國包括附入這個部分是回到學校他自行的一個規範那我們只針對就是你兼行政職的部分才有"},{"start":573.146,"end":588.777,"text":"才有這個服務法的適用請問你這份公文哪裡有分兼行政職沒有兼行政職所以我們在上面並沒有去去寫的寫名所以回到猜情讓我問是不是有老師沒有行政職也收到你們有沒有瞭解啊"},{"start":594.333,"end":606.545,"text":"我剛剛問了教師是不是教育部要管的範圍學校是不是教育部要關心的範圍你們現在轉一個文就不關你們的事了嗎好沒有關係部長現在在旁邊思考這個問題"},{"start":615.732,"end":636.84,"text":"陸委會我要幫他們講話啦陸委會可能不知道學校行政上的實務困難啦人事行政總署可能也不清楚教育部會不知道嗎還在裝傻還在裝睡剛剛真的時間是沒有暫停的喔畫面也沒有停格喔我們的教育部長是完全停滯的喔"},{"start":637.995,"end":654.416,"text":"事實上這樣真的會扼殺我們的教育人員的權益追究起來看起來根本就是行政怠惰實際上甚至會讓特定的人會覺得這是一種思想清洗的活動嗎我們教育部變成思想教育部了嗎"},{"start":655.816,"end":676.374,"text":"我想我再問一次部長沒有兼任行政職的教育人員他們沒有向主管機關或服務機關申請許可或報准賦入的義務教育部憑什麼法條以差型系統為由要求沒有兼行任職的教育人員要一體試用啊他們都收到通知啦他們到底要還是不要如果學校自己要求"},{"start":682.929,"end":692.398,"text":"衛軍行政職的人也要填表也要同意你們同意這個做法嗎依據第三第三條裡面它是這一個"},{"start":694.841,"end":712.898,"text":"兼行政的當然一定要報準但沒有兼行政的就是依學校相關的一個規定來做這一個處理所以老師說那現在教育部的態度到底是什麼我想這一個部分我們會再跟陸委會主動來協調"},{"start":714.56,"end":722.746,"text":"好啦 謝謝教育部 以上要求教育部要幫我們做到本席要求教育部就上述我們今天所詢問的事項你們真的應該要發函 向陸委會表達校方實務上的困難能不能一個月內將辦理情形書面提供給本席"},{"start":731.675,"end":752.654,"text":"好 謝謝不好意思 我爭取一點點時間這個AI是大事啦但是我想要問一下我們現在台灣的AI人才的培訓跟人才的培育這麼厚一本的書面解凍報告對AI人才培育的回覆只有在319頁181個字"},{"start":756.82,"end":782.423,"text":"部長你認為這樣子足夠嗎你覺得這樣我們能夠培育足夠的嗎我直接給你看數字從110年到112年AI陸續成長我們的人才竟然是減少我們是怎麼樣我們這跟全世界平行時空嗎我們不是AI內閣嗎如果今年又再減少我們怎麼辦"},{"start":783.993,"end":811.538,"text":"現在全世界都有AI缺乏人才的問題啊美國啊1月份專門做了AI Talent Report人工智慧的人才報告他們說供不應求啊他們非常努力他們用三種方式增加第一個增加本地訓練第二個增加在國外受訓的減少本地生的流出第三個增加基地措施"},{"start":812.83,"end":832.155,"text":"我現在要問部長 近期川普有這個國際生禁令全球都在搶人啊 中港澳各地大學開綠色通道日本文部科學省直接表示 他們要收這些學生我們今天早上又收到消息"},{"start":833.195,"end":840.443,"text":"學生簽證的面談可能會受到影響結果部長您剛剛在我們委員質詢的時候你說我們有雙簾學位 歡迎各個學校去洽談這不是應該用專案嗎這不是應該用教育部的高度嗎我們看到日本文部科學省我們看到中港澳在搶人部長有沒有做法"},{"start":856.189,"end":877.699,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在第一個時間我相信還有幾多國家剛才委員所提到的我為什麼在高等教育那邊200億裡面有一半以上我就是當時看到川普在對Columbia的一些經費上的一些可能會縮減的時候我們已經就想到說能不能"},{"start":879.086,"end":901.271,"text":"讓這些人才 所以我要跟委員報告的是我想我們這個部分 我們態度是積極的那當然許多 因為在這個場域 我也盡量讓委員能夠給我們一些意見兩個問題 有沒有發新聞稿 日本就直接發新聞稿啊第二 有沒有專案 人家有沒有綠色通道 有沒有做我們現在事實上是有 還沒嘛"},{"start":904.898,"end":928.155,"text":"就是還沒嘛 是不是還沒跟委員報告其實在第一時間針對這些外國學生要來台就讀的意願我們有跟我們的大學已經傳達相關的訊息那學校也表達他們願意來招收這些外國學生好 謝謝這個高度要做出來同時我們也有學生是不是有權益受到影響我們賴清德總統說拖中入北啊"},{"start":929.464,"end":940.438,"text":"結果現在北部給你入啊那哈佛的學生可能進不去可能還有更多的學生權益受到影響啊老實說我一直都覺得我們要廣結善緣部長你回應一下我們有沒有學生受到影響接下來怎麼處理"},{"start":943.563,"end":959.28,"text":"剛才跟委員報告我們初步上以哈佛來講是有52位學生包含已經申請甚至繳了這個住宿都已經找好這個接下來今天早上的新聞有沒有收到啊教育部同仁有給你吧是"},{"start":960.761,"end":984.931,"text":"這個學生圈還不只哈佛啊 是這個影響範圍是不是會擴大 是所以我跟委員報告我們就是說我們也跟AIT在溝通協調這一方面我們要去照顧到我們台灣的這個留學生的權益部長 少花一點時間做政治思想的這些清洗我想我們各部會都非常負責教育部有更多更重要任才培育的事情要做"},{"start":986.752,"end":1011.784,"text":"這個思想控制我想委員這樣講對我是不公平的我沒有這樣說 我說少做一些多做一點對的事情我從來不做政治的一個思想的一個控制我沒有說你控制喔我只很清楚來自一個教育專業我服從教育基本法怎麼樣在人才培育讓我們的新世代年輕人對國家有多一份的一個喜愛好 我最後爭取幾秒鐘"},{"start":1014.145,"end":1019.749,"text":"部長你知不知道速發部在做專案報告推估AI人才需求你知不知道這份報告"},{"start":1023.67,"end":1033.132,"text":"你不是說你要推展這個人才嗎 你要依法啊也感謝委員 委員本身也是這一個專業 對不對那我們一上來的時候因為這一個AI人才產業確實需求恐極所以為什麼我們開始有一個大的一個來自於線上的一個AI課程的一個課程的規劃我想這一個方向目標都是一樣部長 我要告訴你的是你們現在正在被AI內閣的所有其他部位孤立的可能喔"},{"start":1054.151,"end":1066.517,"text":"國科會經濟部都有相關的計畫跟你們有關的人才攻擊完全沒有問過你們跟AI人才培育有關的東西涉及之部會空白啊為什麼呢"},{"start":1070.865,"end":1088.478,"text":"因為大家看到你們的都是這些國防妻子啊禁止婦入交流啊是不是連其他部會都在誤會你們的工作啦老實說這樣真的不好所以我希望部長我們希望跟各個部會更增強聯繫跟學校增強聯繫要幫老師跟學校來維護權益這是教育部以及教育部部長您的工作我最後提醒我們的學生版AI手冊"},{"start":1100.488,"end":1104.866,"text":"從我去年2月1號上任以來到現在 沒看到"},{"start":1105.945,"end":1133.176,"text":"什麼時候推出這是我最後一個問題謝謝委員的關心那這個AI手冊的一個部分學生版對是我們在年底會有出版出來然後昨天已經開完專家對於這整個手冊架構的一個諮詢會所以我們會盡快在年底把出版處理出來好謝謝委員謝謝希望教育部可以硬起來真的好好的來做好教育還有教育部長分內應該做的事我們大家一起來努力謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":1136.411,"end":1138.491,"text":"好 我們謝謝各位人的發言"}]}},{"id":"162070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f242578699adaf1791b0133683dd784ee726265bf62a60a52220385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:05:01 - 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營運中心的成立宗旨"},{"start":47.637,"end":62.637,"text":"2."},{"start":62.677,"end":79.353,"text":"在行政院提供的說明中本中心成立最核心的業務就是調查船隻營運以及船模實驗室的營運管理因此在第三條的文字當中將上述兩個業務予以明確化的文字修正希望讓本中心在未來營運時能夠更加聚焦"},{"start":80.014,"end":106.329,"text":"第三考量船模實驗室與調查船未來可能涉及國家機敏業務本席除了支持第20條有關安全查核之規定外也參著國家情報工作法第28條之規定就安全查核之機制進行詳細的規範希望能保護國家機敏業務也保障中心人員的個人權益因此 據此本席遠距國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案懇請各位立法院同仁大於以支持 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疾管署署長 莊仁祥好 食品藥管理署署長 江志剛中央健保署署長 施崇良國家衛生研究院副院長 許惠恆謝謝行政院主計總署 公務處預算處檢任視察 陳淑萍謝謝內政部副政事 檢任視察 蘇志門好 謝謝還有警政署科長 陳孟欣國土署管理署"},{"start":2113.539,"end":2130.063,"text":"國土管理署科長陳雅芳謝謝還有消防署專門委員郭真君謝謝還有財政部國有財政署副署長吳角梅謝謝負稅署科長蔡旭毅還有國庫署科長洪培銘謝謝教育部國民及學員教育署副署長許立堅謝謝"},{"start":2140.263,"end":2146.652,"text":"華為部參事 汪蘭君經濟部人事處 專門委員 紀佳玲勞動部勞動扶持退休師 專門委員 楊梅雲條件及就業評審師 專門委員 李怡萱"},{"start":2158.117,"end":2180.568,"text":"好有看到 謝謝金融監督管理委員會保險局專門委員吳祁華謝謝原住民委員會社會福利處副處長董敬芬謝謝教育部專門委員馬格福格福杜坦利茂謝謝有來吧教育行政院人事行政總署"},{"start":2189.267,"end":2192.573,"text":"給予福利處專門委員陳費芬 個人資料保護委員會準備處組長林益成現在處理報告事項計51案 請一併宣讀"},{"start":2202.7,"end":2214.962,"text":"報告事項 處理衛生福利部行為114年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結報告案51案1.衛生福利部2-14及新增決議118第二幕科技業務預算凍結案2.衛生福利部15-17及新增決議123第三幕社會保險業務預算凍結案3.衛生福利部18第4幕社會救助業務預算凍結案"},{"start":2228.225,"end":2235.009,"text":"4.衛生福利部19及20及第5目社工及社區發展業務預算凍結案5.衛生福利部21、22及新增決議133第6目保護服務業務預算凍結案6.衛生福利部49至53第10目護理及健康照護業務預算凍結案7.衛生福利部54第11目中醫藥業務預算凍結案"},{"start":2251.218,"end":2251.739,"text":"8.衛生福利部58第13目 國際衛生業務預算凍結案9."},{"start":2251.739,"end":2252.66,"text":"衛生福利部59第14目 衛生福利資訊業務預算凍結案10."},{"start":2252.66,"end":2253.621,"text":"衛生福利部60及61第15目 醫院營運業務預算凍結案11."},{"start":2253.621,"end":2254.922,"text":"疾病管制署1及2第一目 科技業務預算凍結案"},{"start":2271.46,"end":2291.309,"text":"十二 疾病管制署三至七第三目防疫業務預算凍結案十三食品藥物管理署一至九預算凍結案十四食品藥物管理署十至二十四及新增決議二六六預算凍結案十五食品藥物管理署二十五至三十八預算凍結案十六中央健康保險署一"},{"start":2292.009,"end":2309.745,"text":"預算凍結案 十七中央健康保險署二至六第一目科技業務預算凍結案 十八中央健康保險署七第二目一般行政預算凍結案 十九國民健康署預算凍結三百萬元 二十國民健康署第三目國民健康業務預算凍結一百萬元"},{"start":2311.807,"end":2335.396,"text":"二十一國民健康署第三目國民健康業務預算凍結一百萬元二十二國民健康署第三目向下成人及中老年保健預算凍結一百萬元二十三國民健康署第三目向下成人及中老年保健預算凍結五千萬元第二十四案至第二十六案均為國民健康署第三目向下我國少子女化對策計畫二十四"},{"start":2337.397,"end":2357.658,"text":"動節一百萬元二十五動節五十萬元二十六動節五十萬元二十七國民健康署第三目向下提高國家重要癌症篩檢預算動節三千萬元二十八社會及家庭署預算動節一百萬元二十九科技業務預算動節十萬元三十科技業務向下數位身心障礙證明規劃"},{"start":2359.299,"end":2366.923,"text":"計全國身心障礙福利資訊整合平台系統改版計劃預算凍結30萬元31社會福利服務業務預算凍結200萬元32社會福利服務業務向下推展老人福利服務預算凍結500萬元33科目同32向下委辦費預算凍結10%34社會福利"},{"start":2383.132,"end":2410.15,"text":"服務業務向下推展身心障礙者福利服務預算凍結100萬元35社會福利服務業務向下推展兒童及少年福利服務預算凍結50萬元36社會福利服務業務向下推展家庭支持服務之委辦費預算凍結50%第37案至第46案科目均為社會福利服務業務向下我國少子女化對策計劃37凍結200萬元"},{"start":2413.072,"end":2415.495,"text":"第38案至第44案均各凍結100萬元"},{"start":2417.873,"end":2418.053,"text":"45.凍結10萬元46."},{"start":2418.053,"end":2418.614,"text":"柯木桐第38案凍結100萬元47."},{"start":2418.614,"end":2420.255,"text":"社會福利服務業務向下強化社會安全網預算凍結200萬元48."},{"start":2420.255,"end":2421.015,"text":"柯木桐第47案凍結200萬元49."},{"start":2421.015,"end":2421.676,"text":"國家中醫藥研究所預算凍結案50."},{"start":2421.676,"end":2423.717,"text":"國家中醫藥研究所一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之水電費預算凍結案"},{"start":2443.692,"end":2468.309,"text":"五十一 國家中醫藥研究所研究及實驗向下藥物研究與實驗預算凍結案 宣讀完畢好 有關衛福部主管預算凍結報告案第五十一案有依好 如果沒有依 那我們就做以下的決定有要說嗎好好"},{"start":2477.327,"end":2480.811,"text":"各位大家好為什麼有意義其實是"},{"start":2483.803,"end":2512.165,"text":"因為對於衛福部的作為有很多的行政上的作為還有政策上的疑慮我們都有很多意見而這個意見在提案的過程我一直講凍結預算不是我們的目的它是一個手段這個手段是為了要求行政部門要做得更好那我們現在在這裡因為很多的因素所以大家都"},{"start":2513.406,"end":2536.26,"text":"大家都知道心照不宣啦全部都全數解凍那立法院自己把所有的預算全數解凍以後呢我們失去了任何的手段和工具來要求行政部門因為現在在這裡真的是要在標準的告別回家那我舉一個例子"},{"start":2537.817,"end":2559.08,"text":"舉一個例子,譬如說食藥署在食安的把關上面其實都做得,靠一個高人是不夠的啦那我諮詢過的,譬如說蝦皮的平台他們的問題這麼多,中國有毒的食品長驅直入"},{"start":2560.407,"end":2584.48,"text":"第一个他们在网路平台上政府的作为都没有办法有作为第二个在网路平台买了以后卖家要寄到买家的手上请问他的商品是不是其实都做透过海关除非他走私啦我不知道啦他从边境就运输到台湾再从台湾发货给买的人"},{"start":2585.581,"end":2605.404,"text":"所以在食藥署上面有兩關沒有把關邊境沒有把關中國有毒的食品長驅直入邊境失去了作用然後網路上這樣子不肖的商人有毒的食品光明正大"},{"start":2607.707,"end":2612.232,"text":"這個台灣好像沒進步一樣我要質詢你要下架一週過幾週再一個禮拜繼續上架繼續賣這個台灣這樣子的現象"},{"start":2618.507,"end":2646.24,"text":"然後要求食藥署要有作為那我要講說啊還有蝦皮的平台上很多家的廠商他是冒用跟產品實際的產品不符的檢驗合格證而實際的商品他的中文標示來源批號完全不相符違規的使用舊證或是偽造文件但是呢蝦皮只要你給我證我就放水"},{"start":2646.94,"end":2661.341,"text":"現在是這樣應付禁護的事實上他們的違規商品都沒有任何的審核就上架所以食品的安全的把關完全失靈那蝦皮的客服很很很蝦啦"},{"start":2662.482,"end":2676.949,"text":"蝦皮的客服很瞎啦然後有人重複從系統裡面一直申訴一直檢舉都不理沒有實際作為蝦皮的客服最後跟他們說向第三番公正單位提出報告後他們才願意調查"},{"start":2679.071,"end":2696.224,"text":"所以蝦皮還講說我們只有商城店鋪才有正品保證意思是說一般的賣家販售的食品如果違規僅供退貨隨便你要不要退貨其他我無法保障商品的來源或食品的安全"},{"start":2697.475,"end":2700.477,"text":"我現在要跟大家講是說蝦皮靠什麼蝦皮靠什麼獲利的你嗎你知道嗎其實是廣告費不是行政上抽幾個管理費買賣抽成不是他大多數都是靠廣告費而他的盈利重點的廣告費啊"},{"start":2717.269,"end":2744.791,"text":"賣家這些把中國有毒食品長驅直入上架的賣家他支付廣告費還可以增加商品的曝光度吸引更多的買家他提升他的銷售量和營收蝦皮他就廣告付更多所以蝦皮在這種邏輯之下他怎麼可能會嚴格把關商品的合法化和他有毒與否"},{"start":2745.692,"end":2768.059,"text":"然後食藥署總是那種業者自律的態度阿給我們說他沒辦法給我們說他沒辦法所以在這種狀況裡面我們就只有透過凍結預算來要求他想方設法而今天大家在這裡就講了一句說有沒有意見沒有意見通過好我有意見啊我有意見啊"},{"start":2772.537,"end":2781.102,"text":"可是呢 今年的預算到現在 誰敢有意見啊 誰敢有意見 誰敢繼續有意見啊人民的立委 人民的立委來這裡告別回家 我也想要再撇幾下 兩撇都可以撇 怎麼可以"},{"start":2795.984,"end":2809.689,"text":"然後在這裡行政部門就斥定了我們不敢有意見不能有意見一定要全部都通過那我請問你人民的食品安全誰要來把關我減劣預算不是目的我也不像藍白一樣可是我每一個減劣我沒有減劣我連減劣都凍結而已"},{"start":2819.434,"end":2843.725,"text":"我只有凍結咧我不像國民黨和民眾黨在那裡砍預算砍得亂七八糟我是正正很認真的很正經的要為食品的安全把關可是今天在這裡逼到我們都只能夠好沒意見其實我有意見啊所以在這裡我不知道怎麼堅持我的意見但是我必須要講出來我必須要講出來今天預算讓你們過了"},{"start":2849.326,"end":2870.135,"text":"他還要插人 你要理我們 鳥我們嗎食藥署我們這麼多年來不知道署長你一個高人很高 你黑名人都沒完你也沒完 從馬英九時代到小英時代到現在所有食品安全出問題的我說中國有毒食品長期植入的都沒有變過"},{"start":2872.383,"end":2888.972,"text":"好多年了都是這樣子馬英九時代也這樣子 小英時代也這樣子我們現在也是這樣子一個署長很有能力啦下面的人全部都是同一群人 滾石不相胎啦這個道理你們懂嗎從沒換過 職務從沒調整過"},{"start":2892.794,"end":2902.764,"text":"連警察都知道,一個地方不可以讓他站太久整個食藥署六個五個,是怎樣?大家在那邊站很久了,都被輸掉,你比較大啦所以說實話,你的作為不是顯示你個人多有能力你的作為要展現在你對你的署裡面的管理"},{"start":2914.011,"end":2930.835,"text":"你的書裡面管理手段作為要讓人家看得見我們才會有信心而到目前為止光是有毒的中國食品在蝦皮上不斷的賣人手一包家家戶戶都有諮詢完了沒在怕蝦皮繼續賣這樣我們現在要怎麼處理"},{"start":2942.117,"end":2952.339,"text":"那個 林委員 不好意思 我在說200到20分啦基本上是這樣啦 我覺得無論怎樣 咱心災以上 要改動以上 一定有咱每一個委員會主張啦你這個地方不會因為 什麼情形說不能去凍結 不能去散射 都可以啦現在要解凍 如果針對每個人你有意見 我們可以抽出來出來先過 後來再討論"},{"start":2967.622,"end":2991.95,"text":"你現在是要叫我承擔所有的政治責任是嗎沒有沒有沒有人要叫你承擔什麼政治責任啊現在沒有解凍就有辦法了沒有啦你都看錯了我告訴你我凍結不是我沒辦法解凍我也不是非堅持不可但是你現在跟我說要怎麼叫他們做事情叫他們把問題改善我現在要看到我不是要凍結你為什麼我要看到是把問題解決啊"},{"start":2993.65,"end":3014.129,"text":"我要看到問題被解決如此而已如果你解決問題了我還需要在這裡凍結你預算嗎而這個問題是真的這樣子耶衛福部食藥署最核心的問題有毒的中國食品 長驅植物 家家戶戶都有而政府沒有能力 利有未待雙手一攤我們現在人民沒辦法"},{"start":3017.541,"end":3024.814,"text":"好 謝謝委員會先告一下好不好這個室內的CO2已經高過環境部來的時間的時候現在已經1200多了處理一下那個沖汙是不是打開一下"},{"start":3030.453,"end":3055.762,"text":"已經一千兩百多了這對大家都不好 這第一件事情第二件事情 各位如果針對現在是處理報告案等一下我們還有討論的八案各位如果對報告案有51案有其他意見可以抽出來那我們等一下要來做討論那如果行政部門說明不清楚那我們還可以擇期來做討論我想在這個地方對每一個委員都可以有努力表達對預算"},{"start":3057.382,"end":3065.267,"text":"這樣的看法跟要求好 謝謝那我再請教一下有關衛福部主管預算凍結報告案紀復10案有依我剛才說了你也叫書長說他要怎麼做啊不是啊 你說的時候書長都站著啦沒關係 我不叫他站起來喔他就很生意站起來他站起來沒辦法站起來因為你那個食藥署就加了一群老人而已來他要說什麼你就說他就對了來 那個老人"},{"start":3086.852,"end":3111.124,"text":"好啦 好啦 黑咖他也有多少個黑咖不是沒有黑咖他一個人很棒的 黑咖的人黑咖有一些也退休了 你看過去以前在山區青山都那一份那些人 幾乎差不多都退掉了來 署長你簡單回應一下剛剛林委員這樣的一個期待跟要求 好不好 簡單麥克風給他好不好 我先麥克風給他 好"},{"start":3118.682,"end":3139.143,"text":"謝謝委員的指導委員上一次在這邊蝦皮現場我們的新疆紙片核桃我感同身受其實我們回去的時候不只是在食品在藥品 衣材 化妝品我們面臨同樣問題所以在我們如何去確立它的違法"},{"start":3139.924,"end":3164.453,"text":"我們做了一件事情我們現在是用人工智慧導入去做掃掃之後發現平台做了另外一次道高一尺 謀高一丈他們去防止我們的爬蟲去掃提供他的關鍵字下台之後沒有幾天他又上來了這件事情其實不只是食藥署不只是我們單一產是整個新興網路的一個販售的系統"},{"start":3165.313,"end":3193.484,"text":"我有決心也有信心我希望能夠也跟台灣的台灣NICS共同來建置新的一個法架構執行之下讓我有棒子我相信一定可以把我們接下來食品安全我們的藥品衣裝等等甚至有些賣我們的管制藥品在網路上賣就是毒品的史蒂諾斯我都看到了我們同仁也跟我們報告他們很認真的在做我相信我會想到很"},{"start":3194.824,"end":3211.209,"text":"完整的方法來做下一個階段更完備的保障食品藥品以及衣裝化妝品的安全能夠保障國人的安全我希望給我一點點機會跟時間我會努力把它做好的謝謝委員的指導 謝謝要修法嗎"},{"start":3212.926,"end":3224.873,"text":"我會研議之後第一個跟委員部報告因為這部分我還算是可以進一步去了解的因為如果沒有蘿蔔跟棒子可是你的棒子沒有用沒有棒子的話沒有辦法"},{"start":3226.212,"end":3248.413,"text":"我其實看過是有一部分是應該要有動到修法的層次的那我讓我有一點點時間讓我進一步研議這個因為法治的部分我沒有辦法一下就把時間拉齊這個要一點點時間讓我去研議我沒辦法確確三個月還六個月因為在半年內我可以提出一定的國家人說三年過兩年不可能"},{"start":3249.804,"end":3273.915,"text":"好 那就半年內我把我們的能夠研議的一個整個方向跟大院這邊以及委員這邊做進一步的說明跟報告 以上半年內啦 半年內我們還遇得到啦半年內 好基本上半年內我們都還活著 好 謝謝喔謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝好好努力喔 半年內 一百八十天而已也精力的搞好 這首歌你說"},{"start":3275.771,"end":3296.021,"text":"好,這樣我們對這議案有什麼其他的意見沒有無異那我們就均同意動之並提報院會好謝謝那接下來我們進行程序是請這個提案委員來說明提案料子每位委員兩分鐘那第一位請王育民王委員好"},{"start":3304.131,"end":3307.435,"text":"謝謝主席今天排兒童托育服務專法的審查那兒童托育服務專法呢本席在去年就已經提出來那為什麼要提出兒童托育服務專法主要是我們希望讓0到2歲"},{"start":3320.19,"end":3336.176,"text":"這一個階段的孩子他無論是在居家照顧或者是在機構照顧或者是在公共托育家園互助式托育等地方所受到的照顧都可以透過立法得到更完善的一個保護"},{"start":3337.156,"end":3360.941,"text":"而這樣子的一個保護我們有必要把它另訂專法然後把以前的一些相關辦法都提升到這個法律的位階那我提出來的版本有幾個重點第一個就是強調弱勢優先的精神那我想CRC裡面已經有特別強調就是不歧視原則而且弱勢"},{"start":3361.801,"end":3383.639,"text":"照顧優先所以呢我也把這樣的精神定在這樣的一個辦法裡面第二個是我們都知道現在的兩歲零到二歲滿兩歲之後那他這個現在兩歲專班不足所以呢孩子其實面臨到很大的困難他沒有辦法被收拖所以在我的版本裡面呢我也"},{"start":3384.46,"end":3389.865,"text":"特別提出來就是除了零到二歲的收託原來的規定之外可以讓他延長就是你在保母或者是在托嬰機構可以彈性延長到三歲那可以去緩衝現在很多的父母親沒有辦法在孩子兩歲滿直接就進到幼兒園"},{"start":3404.681,"end":3421.307,"text":"這樣子的一個困境第三個很重要的是吹哨者保護條款之前我們看到在幼兒園發生的這樣的一個毛俊生他的這樣的一個性侵的一個案件那就可以看到說如果在機構裡面沒有這些相關的"},{"start":3424.848,"end":3431.213,"text":"工作人員勇於提出檢舉的話那事實上這個孩子可能遭受到這樣的一個性侵或者是被偷拍的傷害是沒有辦法及早被發現的所以吹哨者保護條款非常重要我也納入了我的版本那最後是監管員的部分我想這個部分是大家有共識的希望除了現在的0到2歲的機構裡面"},{"start":3451.667,"end":3473.906,"text":"他可以要保留這一些影像資料之外那將來透過監管員的設施可以確保這些影像不會任意被刪除而且可以保存我想透過這樣的一個兒童托育服務專法的一個訂定我們可以針對0到2歲的孩子給予他們一個更完整的權益的保障以上 謝謝"},{"start":3477.264,"end":3481.63,"text":"好 謝謝王遠德提案說明 接下來請何清淳委員來做提案說明"},{"start":3490.49,"end":3509.651,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉那我們今天排審這個兒童托育服務法非常感謝趙偉我想看看安安社會關注到現行幼兒的照顧及教育的問題那其中未滿兩歲的兒童是由衛福部來主管依照兒童及少年福利及權益保障法及其相關的法規規範"},{"start":3512.254,"end":3540.237,"text":"兩歲以上未滿六歲的兒童歸教育部主管依幼兒教育及照顧法還有其他的相關法規來提供教育及照顧兼具資教保服務但是相較於兩歲以下對不起 相較之下兩歲到六歲的兒童教保服務現在一定有專法但是0到2歲未有專法所以為了保護未滿二歲的幼兒受託及家長的權益確實有必要了"},{"start":3540.737,"end":3555.202,"text":"及其必要來制定這個托育的專法以明確的來規範不管是輔導或是管理機制那除了凱凱案之外我想大家都知道最近台中的豐原的托嬰中心發現了發生了這個不當對待嬰幼兒的事件那前幾天"},{"start":3559.984,"end":3579.274,"text":"台中市政府發出所謂裁罰史上最重的處分誠信的托育人員對14名幼童反覆施以不當及施虐的行為惡性重大裁罰最重60萬元並公告姓名30年內禁止從事任何托育相關工作但是我要問的是這樣夠嗎"},{"start":3581.175,"end":3592.36,"text":"大家應該共同 社會應該共同再來討論我們還可以做什麼那當然還有其他的另外兩位涉及不當對待的部分這兩位的托育人員也被"},{"start":3594.76,"end":3612.287,"text":"財閥而且20年內不得從事任何托育的相關工作涉案的托嬰中心嚴重的管理疏失所以被財閥加重40萬元並勒令8月1號起停辦公告托嬰中心名稱及負責人姓名"},{"start":3613.607,"end":3632.372,"text":"但是事件之後呢我們要問社會及父母們想要知道的是當孩子發生不當照顧被對待如此的這個嚴重的一個行為的時候受到那麼深的傷害那不管是在居家或是托嬰中心我們要如何在法規機制"},{"start":3634.032,"end":3654.521,"text":"預防及早發現 發現之後導政 在導政之後又如何協助家長跟孩子受到政府及相關單位的關心跟協助我再提剛剛提到的這個台中的豐原拖音中心現在雖然台中市政府勒令這個拖音中心8月1號停辦"},{"start":3656.022,"end":3664.525,"text":"還有現在不知道該怎麼處置的有10多位的幼童在等待轉介當中那我們也看到新聞報導裡面有家長表示現在豐原周遭的托育中心都滿根本沒有辦法轉介而必須轉到更"},{"start":3671.367,"end":3687.672,"text":"遠的一個區域的這個托嬰中心面對這樣的狀況不管是過渡期或者是托嬰中心停辦之後的這個轉托銜接的時間如何縮短專人的諮詢協助媒合機制如何更有效率及優化"},{"start":3688.632,"end":3703.842,"text":"都直接影響了這個父母家庭上班通勤接送還有呢我們要如何幫忙年輕的爸爸媽媽年輕家庭撐過去在這一次的立法行動裡面我希望社會大眾跟我們的同事們都能夠呢好好的來討論這個部分那現代社會"},{"start":3708.025,"end":3724.031,"text":"對年輕父母都各自需要工作是雙薪家庭以及現在家庭的規模日益的核心化縮減的環境那政府除了要強化各項的托育補助育兒津貼更要持續的來協助打造良好的"},{"start":3724.431,"end":3751.723,"text":"一個育兒環境我想全面的提升托育服務的品質並明確的規範托育了相關人員的資格義務更要強化托育機構的設立以及管理我想才能夠回應社會多元的需求也才能夠真正讓今天我們要排審兒童托育服務法真正立法之後呢能夠的執行能夠落實能夠真的打造一個更優質的托育環境謝謝"},{"start":3754.107,"end":3781.044,"text":"好 謝謝核心組委員的提案說明那麼接續請王振旭委員來做提案說明林淑雲委員準備好來好 謝謝主席本席針對政院版兒童托育服務法草案提出版本的這個加強"},{"start":3782.745,"end":3810.173,"text":"聚焦在三個面向第一錄影保存的定期追蹤檢查機制第二第一時間的家長調閱權及事後事發後地方政府的這個保存義務第三違法查詢平台的建設這些修正的出發點是希望在既有討論上進一步完善對兒童照顧安全的保障"},{"start":3810.993,"end":3825.39,"text":"第一要強化地方主管機關對托育機構錄影設備保存及上傳的定期檢查機制我們之所以提出加強這個影像保存機制的建議是因為兒童在這個族群的特殊性"},{"start":3826.431,"end":3852.959,"text":"相較於成人兒童在遭遇不當對待的時候往往難以清楚表達經歷的過程或者是情境在這樣的情況下監視錄影的這些影像往往成為唯一客觀可追溯的事證來源影像不僅是保護孩子的工具也有助於事實的還原、釐清責任對家長、托育機構與主管機關來說都是一種保護的作用"},{"start":3854.198,"end":3878.075,"text":"近年及起這個重大案件中我們注意到一個共通的問題設備錄影未能正常的運作畫面會消失導致無法還原事實真相因此我們在第30條及第61條當中建議明確的規定地方主管機關應該要定期追蹤檢查影像設備的運作情形影像資料是否確實保存與上傳"},{"start":3879.115,"end":3898.127,"text":"這樣的機制設計讓影像相關規定更具有實效錄影不是用來製造壓力而是要來保障保障雙方的權益保存事實的重要工具第二我們希望在影像保存的第一時間及事後花的這個嚴強保存裡面加強保障當孩子回到"},{"start":3899.068,"end":3926.713,"text":"家中出現異常傷痕或者是情緒改變的時候此時能否在家長察覺的第一時間能夠調閱相關的錄影資料將成為釐清事實的重要依據因此我們建議在第30條當中明文賦予法定代理人在有具體懷疑的時候得依規定來提出申請經審查後調閱特定期間的這個畫面讓制度提供事實的支持"},{"start":3927.413,"end":3950.196,"text":"與回應同時當案件涉及不當的這個對待兒童內建這些開啟調查的時候為了避免資料在關鍵時刻流失我們也這個建立明定地方主管機關應該要負責保存影像相關的影像自調查或法律程序結束後三個月為止隱私與兒童安全"},{"start":3951.337,"end":3975.062,"text":"不是只能選擇一邊我們透過法定申請隱私保護條件及用途的限制讓制度能夠三贏家長可以相信制度孩子能夠獲得保護托育機構及人員也能夠還原真相保護自身的權益第三建立違規紀錄的公開查詢的平台我們在第72條補強"},{"start":3977.122,"end":4005.978,"text":"要求中央主管機關建制違反兒童托育服務法查詢系統統整介入處分對象包括機構及托育人員違規的條文金額與日期讓所有家長在送托之前都可以清楚的辨識風險不會在資訊不對等之下做出不得不的選擇以上這些機制的設計希望可以讓托育成為孩子安心"},{"start":4006.778,"end":4011.302,"text":"家長放心,也保護托育機構的權益環境以上報告"},{"start":4029.097,"end":4046.348,"text":"現行的0到6歲的兒童教育及照顧事權分屬於衛福部和教育部其中未滿2歲的兒童由衛福部主管依照兒少權法相關法規以照顧及保育為主的托育服務"},{"start":4048.689,"end":4074.398,"text":"這個也是教育部和衛福部這樣子事權分散所以兩歲以上未滿六歲的歸教育部那依兒照法及相關法規提供教育及照顧的兼具的教保服務所以這種狀況裡面兒少全法的法規還有這個兒童托育服務法裡面談到包括這個托育的方式有居家式和機構式但兒少全法對居家式的"},{"start":4075.659,"end":4094.199,"text":"這個托育的管理只有第五條就含罰則一條這樣子輔導與管理機制其他都定於授權的條款授權的辦法所以我們其實認為這樣的授權應該要提升到法律的位階予以強化而在機構式的托育方面法規以托嬰為主"},{"start":4094.659,"end":4097.562,"text":"並認為其屬兒童及少年福利機構的一環但事實上與跟那個非營利益性質設置的其他兒少福利機構屬性迥異不一樣兒少權法卻採取相同的輔導和管理機制顯然有調整的必要所以更何況在衛福部在106年期就由部門"},{"start":4117.359,"end":4137.111,"text":"政府部門推動了社區公共托育家園的事辦計畫所以這個計畫是要引導各地方政府結合民間專業團體共同合作辦理有別於居家式和托嬰的機構式的這個第三種托育服務那事實上也有納管的必要"},{"start":4138.362,"end":4159.251,"text":"所以有鑑於前述議題沒有辦法再靠著修正兒少權法就可以來處理那另外兩歲到未滿六歲的兒童所讀的這個教保服務機構也定有專法所以我們實在是必須要在另外定一個完善的托育服務法規以具建構輔導和管理的機制這樣子那我們的版本裡面事實上"},{"start":4164.893,"end":4176.821,"text":"跟行政院版本有幾個不同那其實最大不同包括我們新增了違規祭典制要建立而且要落實有效的管理不適任人員一有安全衛生的問題馬上開罰而不是叫他改善然後我們也明訂了祭典制以後要有退場的機制要連動在一起"},{"start":4187.088,"end":4213.914,"text":"那我們對於所謂現在的這個居家托育人員的勞動條件還有這個相關的保障我們一直認為說居家托育人員流動率太高在機構裡面流動率太高或者是居家的他的薪水條件太低在這種狀況裡面都不利於托育的品質所以我們要求中央"},{"start":4214.855,"end":4225.488,"text":"中央要統籌去承擔居家托育人員的薪資的訂定還有居家托育的發展計畫而不是發任地方政府你們各自去訂你們的標準 收費標準可是同樣的托育照顧 勞動條件卻不一樣"},{"start":4231.876,"end":4239.039,"text":"那甚至水準高低不一樣那品質也不一樣在這種狀況裡面我們的版本另外有一個是跟行政院的版本也不一樣的就是說我們居家托育的服務中心這個中心他的業務職長到底要做什麼應該是要做什麼他的業務職長不明所以我們缺乏法律條文那我們的版本希望明定他的業務職長要法治化而不是"},{"start":4261.168,"end":4264.791,"text":"政府召之即來會之即去然後協助政府的角色絕對不是他的中心他的業務執掌要法電話另外我們對於這個罰則還有對於這個人員的資格和義務及托育服務的管理還有居家托育的要求跟這個要"},{"start":4284.58,"end":4301.412,"text":"要照顧的人跟送托的人要簽訂書面契約辦理一般傷病及緊急事故應處理的一些基本保險等等我們的版本都有這樣的不同總而言之 也要總之就是希望我們第一個就是說事權給他統一進來這一部法律裡面而要符合這個社會的期待不及格的違規的一定要連動到處分而這個處分是有效的處分可以改進的處分"},{"start":4314.04,"end":4328.069,"text":"讓我們的托育的品質改進而且可以更保障這個幼兒的這個受托的品質和他的安全喔 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林月琴委員來做提示說明 請黃菊委員準備"},{"start":4338.287,"end":4349.188,"text":"過去在我們的兒少權法裡面那我覺得訂定的針對於居家事實上在兒少權法在一百年訂的時候大概也"},{"start":4350.031,"end":4376.277,"text":"只有5條是針對於居家保母那托嬰中心大概也只有4條可是我們相對於去看到2到6歲事實上是整個幼照法在管理總共訂了66條它的強度是比較強的可是相對於如果今天如果2到6歲要這麼多的強度這麼強的法規在做規管的時候為什麼托嬰中心0到2歲事實上是比較低齡的甚至居家保母"},{"start":4377.017,"end":4402.258,"text":"又是在家比較封閉的反而只有5條4條在做規管所以的確托育服務專法有存在的必要性就是另立專法來否則幼照法66條 教保人員條例的話53條那加上政府因為少子化而更多的要讓家長送托到托嬰中心送托到居家保母的鼓勵的政策裡邊"},{"start":4403.086,"end":4416.856,"text":"所以有准公甚至公共化的這樣子的一個要件可是也製造了一些問題也就是不當對待的事情頻傳所以勢必有一個專法來做歸管事實上是比較完備的"},{"start":4417.403,"end":4434.637,"text":"所以我自己提出來的版本裡邊 大概有幾個重點也就是這次凱凱案可以看到如果一般性的保姆在做管理的時候居家托育服務中心的一個管 歸管的甚至管理輔導"},{"start":4435.465,"end":4460.762,"text":"不會是有一個計畫來所以我們會希望在居福中心這一塊應該要納入在法律裡面去做管理另外一個是今天過去也是很常是一般安置跟景安跟我們的收出養的前端的過渡期的安置都放在一般性的居福中心管理的保姆所以我認為未來也要做分級管理那過去兒少全法49條講的15個樣態裡面"},{"start":4464.925,"end":4482.853,"text":"總共15款的樣態裡面常常沒有辦法去處理家外不當對待而虐的問題所以在我的版本裡面我也會去強調要去把我們的不當對待體罰這些明列清楚所以比照幼照法的一些要件裡面"},{"start":4483.713,"end":4512.752,"text":"去做強調為什麼因為我覺得今年年到兩歲事實上政府在鼓勵公共化或者是在催生要期待孩子送出來的越來越多尤其是因應雙薪家庭的話那真的要有一個專法來針對於我們年到兩歲的孩子真的讓家長可以放在保母家或托孕中心能夠安心事實上我們也期待事實上是在推動相關政策少子化政策的時候"},{"start":4513.835,"end":4523.265,"text":"這個對應的政策應該要努力讓我們的孩子們真的在台灣這塊土地上能夠能生能養然後健康平安長大謝謝"},{"start":4535.591,"end":4560.303,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天審查這個托育專法其實是社會各界都期待已久的一個專法那在我自己的版本裡面除了針對這個凱凱案其實大家之前也都在討論這個保姆的機制要如何精進所以在我的版本裡面有納入這個保姆違規祭典制就是把保姆的違規行為造成的危害程度應該要列不同的等級然後來祭典"},{"start":4561.543,"end":4582.24,"text":"列為一到三點如果兩年內累計點數達六點就要暫停收託如果五年內又違規那暫停收託要打兩次如果又再違規然後遭記點的保姆就必須要面臨費政退場這樣子的結果那這個是其實很多委員的版本包括院版裡面也都有針對保姆記點制這樣子的討論"},{"start":4584.301,"end":4605.777,"text":"那在我的版本裡面比較特別的是我因一個其實全台灣也常常在發生的就是藉口上市的托育機構的這件事情我有提出了一些修法那我講一下這個案例因為這個其實是在高雄發生的當時有一個托嬰機構的負責人他因為就是有涉及虐待兒童然後導致有非常多的嬰兒"},{"start":4607.398,"end":4626.276,"text":"就是身上有瘀青甚至是給他發霉的奶嘴等等不當的情勢那當時我揭露之後我們高雄市的社會局當然有依法裁罰然後予以停業可是呢過了五年到了今年我又發現這個機構他們竟然用他丈夫的名義在原址重新開業"},{"start":4627.617,"end":4633.584,"text":"那當然社會局其實也都知道這樣的情況但是沒有任何的法律可以讓他去不給這個機構他的開業的這個依據所以他還是開業了可是開業之後他還是又發生了虐因的事情"},{"start":4642.854,"end":4657.36,"text":"所以像這樣的機制到底要如何去建立防範說他原址重新開業結果是用藉口上市甚至是找人頭讓他開機構這樣的事情發生所以我為了要杜絕這樣子的不肖業者我有提出幾個"},{"start":4658.52,"end":4678.575,"text":"讓他們不要規避監管的一個方式一個是事前防度就是在事前你合可這個讓這個設立許可的時候地方政府有更大的審查權包括說他們有明確的事證足以證明雖然他是藉口上市但是他有危害兒童的權益之餘他就可以駁回這個申請這個是事前防度再來事中監管"},{"start":4681.977,"end":4706.686,"text":"就是這樣子的機構很明顯已經是高風險的機構了包括說他原子重開包括說他的負責人的親屬或是他找各式各樣的人然後他已經是涉及虐童案了但是他還是這樣子借來重開那這樣子的機構主管機關你就應該要去多查核啊怎麼會又讓他發生虐因的事情呢這個都是要去揭露才可以保障家長的知情權"},{"start":4707.486,"end":4719.235,"text":"第三個要事後懲處就是這個機構如果他明知或可得而知有虐童的記錄了像我剛剛講的這個例子然後甚至是他已經他還他已經被廢照了他已經這個機構被廢止了結果他還在繼續照顧兒童"},{"start":4724.239,"end":4747.149,"text":"就算他不是正式的聘僱主管機關也有權要去廢止這個設立的許可才對就是讓他事後的這個懲處的機制可以更明確所以以上是我針對這種不肖業者建民重開的這種方式提出的一些建議也希望進行實質審查的時候衛福部可以給予明確的回應那如果可以的話我希望這樣的樣態必須要明確的處理 謝謝"},{"start":4752.467,"end":4758.519,"text":"好謝謝黃議員的提案報告那接下來請邱部長就討論事項第一案第二案來進行報告及說明時間10分鐘謝謝請部長"},{"start":4765.424,"end":4793.229,"text":"主席、各位委員先生、各位委員、理事先生今天當代第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議本部全邀列席報告深感榮幸持就中華民國114年度專政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案、六四案及審查兒童托育服務法草案提出專案報告敬請各位委員不吝會議執教本部"},{"start":4794.457,"end":4797.804,"text":"主管114年度單位預算凍結案"},{"start":4800.426,"end":4825.644,"text":"討論四項十三案 上述凍結案之辦理情況已彙集成書面資料並含修貴委員會及各委員辦公室 針對貴委員凍結本部之所屬業務會經常支出30%等本部結議以配合嚴格控管然而本部手邊內的預算需為維護全民健康與福祉整合社會福利及衛生醫療資源涵蓋"},{"start":4828.052,"end":4840.876,"text":"福利、服務、長期照顧、社會安全、醫療照護、疫病防治、食品、藥物管理到健康促進等有關簽名福祉的議題各項經費變略進而推動業務手續談論未能及時獲得同意節度"},{"start":4847.238,"end":4873.439,"text":"將影響這個全民健康政策推動及福利服務的提供基本業務運作下半年異恐面臨難以運作為因的風險進行會議支持准以解凍及凍置經費以利本部所使機關依既定之施政計畫及業務內容執行二、審查兒童特異服務法草案"},{"start":4876.598,"end":4904.053,"text":"第一制定兒童托育服務法草案法條重點為保障兒童接受適齡適性之保育照顧確保兒童托育服務品質兼顧完善托育服務體系以促進兒童隨性健康發展原理據兒童托育服務法草案共六章七十八條其要點如下一提高居家托育法律業位階級職業資格明定居家托育專章"},{"start":4905.254,"end":4924.965,"text":"並三屬僅需受訓即可職業規定 透過源頭把關 嚴謹篩選居家保姆 藉以提升專業服務品質二 強化特異機構透明度及管理規範 明定特異機構應將人員資格 收退人數 收退費項目等資訊更加公開透明"},{"start":4926.145,"end":4944.555,"text":"規範施立托育機構消費採核制度二、三規範托育相關人員消極資格及強化不當對待照顧案件處理機制一定不得單院托育相關人員連線資料件建立事件調查及審理機制並規範應用網路儲存儲存監視資料及提高違法處罰的強度以保障"},{"start":4954.52,"end":4973.283,"text":"送托兒童安全及家長權益 四 發展多元化托育型態並完備法治訂定社區護住室 部落護住室及職員職場護住室托育型態將公共托育家園入法管理 以完備法治化管理及"},{"start":4975.564,"end":4994.41,"text":"5加速佈建公共拖曳支援放寬公有不動產以無損方式提供非營利性質法人使用應用學校場所辦理拖曳機構免利變更使用製造以利加速佈建支援2本部中整委員體驗版本就共通性意見檢討說明委員連任請等16人"},{"start":4998.291,"end":5012.384,"text":"委員何欣晨等16人 委員邱若驊等16人 委員李昆城等22人委員郭益晴等21人 委員陳詩月等16人 委員林思芬等25人委員王正旭等18人提案 托育機構裝設監視錄影設備 委員關切"},{"start":5017.248,"end":5034.807,"text":"托育機構監視錄影設備影音資料之管理上傳保存實現各資等議題行政版第30條規定托育機構攝錄影音資料至少保存30日並加密及傳送至地方政府監視之"},{"start":5038.33,"end":5052.058,"text":"網際網路系統促成以毅力保存政績至於委員所提其他執行實務規定會在訂定涉嫌辦法時充分討論嚴厲以保護社區兒童安全及家長權益二"},{"start":5053.539,"end":5071.101,"text":"委員林立群等16人、委員何欣淳等16人、委員王一鳴等24人、委員邱若驊等16人、委員陳培宇等19人、委員陳世瑞等16人、委員李文思文等25人提案托役機構訂定收退費金額委員所訂所提托役機構收退費"},{"start":5075.065,"end":5091.201,"text":"採機構報地方政府備查會有中央訂定收退會項目用途及基準等議題考量現行私立推議機構收費退會項目需報地方政府核定實務執行並無困難為保障家長權利行政案版第27條採合訂基礎屬於現行做法"},{"start":5095.084,"end":5109.845,"text":"為避免地方政府特意機構收費退費項目及用途不依行政案版第21條授權中央主管機關以公告方式定量特意機構收退費項目及用途以一般為一致性規範"},{"start":5112.257,"end":5125.93,"text":"至於收退費及基準屬於地方政府全縣考量用地之以差異由地方政府訂定更具彈性3.委員林慧琴等16人 委員邱惠華等16人 委員何欣淳等16人 委員蔡穎等7人"},{"start":5128.345,"end":5146.242,"text":"委員陳佩玉等19人、委員陳思悅等16人、委員王明慧等19人、委員李子文等25人、委員吳佩玉等18人所提強化托育相關人員管理及違法事件調查及審議機制委員所提一定年限不得擔任托育相關人員"},{"start":5147.743,"end":5167.672,"text":"樣態、祭典等限制行政院版第38條至第42條以參考各界意見定名托育相關人員消極資格樣態可施前把關保護兒童安全自委員所提調查機制進行方式出院組成審議小組等執行性規定將於行政院版第14條訂定授權辦法時充分"},{"start":5172.429,"end":5190.83,"text":"討論嚴厲 以上就委員提案溝通性意見報告至於委員所提的其他的條文的回應請參閱詳細資料 以上報告本部成大院各委員指教及監督在此敬致謝神 並請各位委員繼續以以支持 以上報告"},{"start":5195.722,"end":5220.881,"text":"謝謝邱會長的報告那有關本市會議各項書面資料經列入記錄刊登公報現在開始審討做一下宣告第一本會委員宣討時間6加5分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘那10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於3月前提出預期不受理那暫定10點半休息10分鐘本路不處理臨時提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳清輝委員來做發言"},{"start":5228.625,"end":5232.527,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位官員的出席 想先請邱部長部長恭喜你在獄歸國我們有看到你帶團去WHO說各國力挺都紛紛的增加力道也加強了但在您出國的這個時期五大醫事團體有說到一個聲明因為面對現在台灣關稅進口的藥品還有醫材成本高漲"},{"start":5257.378,"end":5279.91,"text":"長期的點值跟點數都是低落的醫護人力荒其實今年急診醫師已經離職66位那內部透露出來的訊息是還有40位在排隊離職的路上所以他們希望這個4100億有石崇良署長透露的200億可以再增加因為這個占比太低了不知道部長會不會幫忙協助爭取好我想增加"},{"start":5286.368,"end":5311.925,"text":"健保的一個益處會由多元化來進行包括我們成長率我想成長率這個部分政府也支持那我們都提到最高然後有些比較屬於公共衛生的我們都移出來到由政府來補助這個其實都是很重要的那特別條例所以在今年你看我們可以成長到700多億"},{"start":5313.066,"end":5335.322,"text":"其實大家只是想問說4100億這個200億是您訂出來覺得足夠的或者是您可以再協助爭取我想最重要是爭取那個穩定性穩定性就是成長率跟那個成長率這個是一直激起一直上去的嘛這個才是最重要的然後第二個就是那個"},{"start":5336.806,"end":5362.208,"text":"不要就是有公共衛生或其他的或者是說像我們的罕病因為他需要的錢比較多所以我們公務預算多了20億這個部分我想政府一定在這個部分幫忙那至於說整個特別條例的預算要怎麼樣我想政府會考慮到國家的發展以及人民各方面的需求我們當然很願意希望能"},{"start":5362.668,"end":5380.668,"text":"你會努力嗎會下一個我們來看一下健康台灣裡面有個目標是癌症的死亡人數要下降三分之一那我這邊給您一個數據112年癌症死亡人數是佔總死亡人數的四分之一所以"},{"start":5381.629,"end":5401.865,"text":"當年的死亡人數是五萬多人你如果要讓癌症死亡人數下降三分之一表示大約你要讓一千七百多人免於死於癌症這件事情我想問說很多人覺得是有難度啦您覺得最大的挑戰是什麼只要講一句話就好了"},{"start":5403.393,"end":5426.341,"text":"你說那個到達2030前對你覺得最大的挑戰是什麼如果要讓癌症死亡人數下降我覺得全民第一個全民早一點篩檢這是最重要的因為一旦發現任何風吹草動趕快處理那就幾乎都不用做後續的治療是最節省費用的好那我在這邊跟您說一下"},{"start":5427.541,"end":5433.944,"text":"其實你有一個很大的挑戰是我們的能源政策因為5月17核電歸零之後呢我們發現5月22、5月23不管是燃煤或是燃氣的電廠就開始偷偷的發電甚至呢晚上是到達100%很多網民會掛在網路上看這個台電的網站"},{"start":5450.694,"end":5471.913,"text":"但是剛講到這個癌症喔不管是肺癌或是其他癌症肺癌是在癌症十大死因一直都是第一名或是第二名連續40年以來每年有破萬人確診破萬人死於肺癌而且治療是要花最多的錢健保跟自費都是一樣而且它人數不斷地攀升"},{"start":5473.755,"end":5501.209,"text":"所以它跟你的健康政策其實打架了你說要擴大篩檢沒錯可是空污是增加你篩檢出來癌症人數不是嗎非常感謝委員對人民的健康的一個關心那各種癌症它的成因基本上都是有多元化也每一種不太一樣那以惠亞來講其實有很多證據基礎是告訴我們它是多種原因的當然"},{"start":5501.909,"end":5519.81,"text":"比較有危險性的 譬如說家族或者是那個抽煙 這個的確是比較明顯所以我們也在篩 我們政府也已經有在做篩檢好 沒關係 部長我先 其實我找出了過去十幾篇您的發言這個是其中一篇而已"},{"start":5520.35,"end":5539.55,"text":"你知道空氣污染是造成罹患肺癌人數增加的原因這是過去您質詢薛瑞元次長的時候說的話你說不要嫌基因不好其實環境的危害當時就佔20%而且您還跟薛瑞元次長講了很多你說不只是肺癌其實就在科醫師的觀點來說"},{"start":5541.392,"end":5566.678,"text":"心血管疾病也是空污造成的非常多而且你還告訴學院部長說你還說空氣污染不是造成罹患肺癌人數增加的原因嗎那你還講了一個你過去的學生的故事他從台大到斗六支援結果他發現這個長者是因為他以為誤以為台北的空氣不好所以他搬回斗六"},{"start":5567.458,"end":5585.987,"text":"結果你的學生很傷心的告訴你說其實在中南部的空氣品質超級差的這個長者的決定是錯誤的你當時講了很多故事啊我十幾篇都可以找出來所以你難道還是不覺得我們的燃煤燃氣現在一下啪 漲到80% 漲到100%還不會對你的健康政策有影響嗎"},{"start":5591.308,"end":5619.52,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想我們過去多年來衛環都一直很至重到那個就是當時環保署我們也常常在有有 你不只是問環保署你問衛福部都一樣都希望那個讓我們的整個空氣能夠更好我想這個部分是大家努力的那空氣如果"},{"start":5620.78,"end":5639.05,"text":"比較不好那當然對健康各種不只癌症的問題啦對各種都是會有影響那我在這邊是具體它的影響的一個程度我們就是要科學化來分析所以我們也會有相關的計畫我現在調出科學化因為台大公衛的詹長權教授跟您也是非常熟識的嘛"},{"start":5639.65,"end":5666.469,"text":"他跑到燃煤電廠的附近去看他就發現說這些PA2.5的擴散程度嚴重程度還有擴散的範圍都遠比其他的電廠還要高那他最近2024年又發表一個environmental research長達30年的PA2.5長期曝露會增加罹患肺腺癌的風險他已經校正完你剛講到的年紀 抽菸 癌症分歧 基因 性別等等這些他都已經校正完成了"},{"start":5667.785,"end":5693.826,"text":"所以我是具體的建議部長你下次開健康委員會或者你下次開院會你下次有機會遇到賴總統 卓院長你是不是可以大膽的跟他們提出這個能源政策跟健康政策是違背的你不能一方面增加燃氣跟燃煤一方面又預期你的癌症死亡人數可以下降三分之一"},{"start":5694.909,"end":5716.455,"text":"我們過去多年來的努力我們可以發現不管是衛福部或環保署、環境部其實在這方面的平衡裡面是做了非常多的努力因為國家的發展、人民的健康都是非常重要的這怎麼樣兩前其美創造雙永的局面"},{"start":5716.715,"end":5736.438,"text":"所以您會提出來嗎所以您會提出來嗎未來的會議您會提出來嗎不管是中央政府或地方政府能夠大家合作該怎麼樣做是創造雙陽的局面這個一起來努力我相信對人民的健康以及對整個國家的發展都能夠面面俱到"},{"start":5736.778,"end":5765.993,"text":"部長我先給你一個背景知識我們要達到綠能30%非常的困難這是一條漫漫長路所以燃煤跟燃氣勢必會在短期內增加這個是您必須要在會議中提出來給您的長官的這樣子好嗎好我想我們會跟環境部一起來努力那環境部前幾天講到說空汙有因為家庭主婦煮菜煎肉煎培根造成這點身為一個家醫科醫師您贊成嗎"},{"start":5771.138,"end":5787.145,"text":"委員的意思是是說家庭主菜不是 環境部長的意思是說其實這個發電沒有對空污的影響有我們想像的這麼嚴重他認為更嚴重的還有煎肉跟煎培根"},{"start":5788.48,"end":5803.732,"text":"這個也是有一些研究是這樣的研究所以我才說我們有其實有更多的會癌的專家在做研究那為什麼譬如說在空汙這個部分為什麼沒有"},{"start":5804.676,"end":5817.872,"text":"沒有納入這個篩檢的一個條件裡面就是因為它的證據基礎還需要更多啦所以這個部分我想我們會會繼續 第一方面在研究的基礎方面我們會再繼續來現在國健署也有兩個計畫在做這方面"},{"start":5820.955,"end":5831.066,"text":"從以前您十幾次的發言其實您都知道空污的嚴重程度啦所以我也希望您可以再更重視這件事情而且把它提出來這邊只是給你國衛院的數據還有一些民間基金會的統計"},{"start":5836.492,"end":5857.421,"text":"國人外食的比例是節節在升高啦所以講到這些煮飯的習慣等等是不太合乎我們現在的趨勢那這點也是要讓您知道的背景知識不需要把空污怪罪給家庭主婦煮飯的習慣好下一個這個是我從基層許多的醫療院所遇到的問題"},{"start":5858.772,"end":5875.92,"text":"您三月的時候開了一個這個新聞稿那那個時候很多懷孕的媽媽就非常的開心說你們推出了產後免費心理諮商五月上路坐月子起有兩次機會結果基層不管是媽媽或是基層的醫護人員告訴我說"},{"start":5876.84,"end":5896.754,"text":"他們是有看了兩次診但做產後的照護並沒有得到專業的心理諮商或者是產後憂鬱 育兒焦慮他們有被衛教哺乳 看傷口 慢性病控制這些都有 因為是婦產科醫師來做但您也知道心理諮商就是另外一個專業這跟婦產科醫師的專業是不同的那這個心理諮商這樣子發稿可是掛羊頭賣狗肉 對嗎"},{"start":5904.6,"end":5925.159,"text":"他們沒有獲得心理智商報告委員這個是媒體在報導上面沒有錯了失真沒有全部cover到其實這個是就是婦產科醫學會一直提出的所謂第四印旗的概念他不只他心理智商我們現在是用量表來做screen當然如果screen出來有問題趕快去連結心理的資料"},{"start":5928.041,"end":5947.889,"text":"所以那只是一個screen其中我們還有更多包括他身體的各種狀況來部長我調出來給你看其實你那兩次做了什麼你做了生理量測疾病身體功能評估心理自評自評就是你剛剛講的那兩表產後生活型態還有未來的避孕下一胎準備等等"},{"start":5949.19,"end":5964.307,"text":"你是製品啊 你是填一個量表啊你跟心理智商是沒有關係 你在做的是一個篩檢你做的只是一個Screaming所以最後這些孕產婦告訴我的是他們真的量表嚴重 又被轉介到了神行科的診"},{"start":5965.228,"end":5984.434,"text":"但他們是需要心理諮商因為他們到這些身心科診以後呢他自己在哺乳嘛他其實並不想要透過藥物所以他希望轉為心理諮商來輔導他跟你之前公佈的新聞稿真的是差很多所以你要不要往那個方向去研擬我還是要澄清一下鮑威"},{"start":5986.335,"end":6010.827,"text":"那個心理只有說那個服務項目是心理智商是錯誤的其他都有所以是記者寫錯了記者寫錯了其實心理健康就是用愛電話來擺表是做screen那我跟你講你這個表出了什麼問題來我們看一下這個產後憂鬱表總共有十項要填每一項都有分數喔"},{"start":6012.248,"end":6040.681,"text":"你現在是基層診所要把這個表一項一項的數字key回去他才可以拿到這些補助第一時效性不夠及時你為什麼不幫大家做好一個大家掃碼就可以或者自己上網填寫你等於及時可以獲得這些孕產婦的資訊你馬上就可以抓到高風險的人第一是及時性第二一個一個人去做去key再把它key回去然後病人用手寫"},{"start":6041.961,"end":6058.398,"text":"當然可能會有錯誤啊而且你既然想做質化或是量化的統計對你來說沒有任何幫助嘛所以你可不可以一個月延你出來那基層診所他不好意思再讓護理人員做這件事情了因為這個非常人力需求是非常大的"},{"start":6059.386,"end":6074.338,"text":"那有一些可能自己有資源的醫療院所他自己串聯了他自己IT部門去把它串上去病人用手機填寫完自動把data再倒回去給你衛福部這個很好 可是不是每個人都有這個資源啊"},{"start":6076.492,"end":6102.851,"text":"委員是婦產科的專家啦所以您最了解到在實際上操作層面的困難的問題我想我們這個會細心來調整那你可以一個月研擬看看嗎我們來了解一個好的政策出來總是要把它落地嘛落地的過程當中我們就要去一直改善好 我希望一個月可以研擬出來你可不可以把它電子化第二個就是你可不可以提供實質的心理智商好不好好 謝謝請健康署努力"},{"start":6103.872,"end":6125.897,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員的宣達謝謝,謝謝委員謝謝部長委員在這邊宣告蘇勛賢召委宣達結束之後我們休息10分鐘接下來請王育民委員你鎖了就休息謝謝主席,我們是不是有請邱部長委員好"},{"start":6131.994,"end":6152.077,"text":"部長好 部長你辛苦了這個世衛行動團我也跟著到前線去我可以看到其實包括部長次長還有出席的同仁大家都非常辛苦了在第一線為了台灣的醫療如何可以進到重返WHA大家其實是做了很多的努力"},{"start":6152.987,"end":6163.39,"text":"雖然今年還是沒有辦法敲開這個大門不過這個未卜部同仁的用心我還是要給予肯定因為在第一線其實看得很清楚那但是回到國內你的挑戰其實蠻多的第一個我要先問大家最關注的現在疫情的問題事實上我在瑞士去訪問這個老人養護機構的時候他們其實也有表達瑞士的衛生部門已經提醒他們就是疫情即將在起"},{"start":6182.476,"end":6193.403,"text":"所以也提醒大家做好各項的準備那回到台灣其實昨天疾管署剛發布的數據我想讓國人其實也開始擔心起來因為這樣的一個數據的攀升我覺得有點超乎疾管署原來的預期因為過去你們的預期可能預計到6月底可能是6到7萬但現在已經瞬間調高那個數字可能會高達20萬所以代表現在的疫情其實是來得又急又猛"},{"start":6211.354,"end":6230.496,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下我要就教部長的是我們過去在防疫的措施我們會有很多不同的措施那第一個是大家關心的是我們相關的防疫的物資可不可以到位然後足不足夠的問題那現在是快篩大家其實都買不到"},{"start":6231.192,"end":6255.37,"text":"那你什麼時候這個量能可以跟得上?這個部分部長是不是可以回應一下?好的 首先我還是謝謝委員對我們世衛行動團的努力給個肯定 我特別感謝我們這次世衛行動團的確各個都是一個當好幾個用 也很努力都是"},{"start":6256.491,"end":6280.159,"text":"都是各部門的首長那最重要就是我們立委四島團的三位委員包括王一鳴委員、王正旭委員、劉淑敏委員真的非常用心不但陪著我們四位團打仗還做國會外交也跑到瑞士博恩去做很好的國會外交也去參觀相關的機構真的是重溫發揮我們立法委員到"},{"start":6281.859,"end":6292.647,"text":"國外的一個國際的外交這個我們也非常感動特別王委員的努力王委員非常敬佩那至於在防疫方面我想"},{"start":6294.69,"end":6317.569,"text":"在藥物跟疫苗方面 這個絕對十分充分 沒有問題現在是快篩 家用快篩的部分其實是這樣子 因為在還沒有疫情的時候它當然產線就不產 鋪路也會沒有那麼快但是一旦我們現在已經會發現這個疫情的時候 我們馬上啟動而且都必須要 譬如說"},{"start":6319.23,"end":6343.304,"text":"機關署說的估計的一個量我們一定要廠商做超過這個量而且現在已經不但是量而已,而且鋪路也要鋪下去所以各位也許在前面一個禮拜在個別的社區藥局會比較難買得到但是因為他們沒有,因為他們本來就沒有在賣所以你們要鋪到個別的社區藥局比較困難所以重點我們先鋪兩個,一個是連鎖藥局"},{"start":6349.148,"end":6370.528,"text":"另外就是有個超商,三大超商現在已經都暴露了,比如說萊爾富、全家還有韓世美都已經有貨了,現在嗎?像今天就會出了4萬,4萬出來,也許莊署長一直想要報告,我就想要做相關的"},{"start":6373.157,"end":6395.455,"text":"我這邊跟委員說明一下因為民眾都很關心所以你清楚告訴大家哪一些通路現在買得到一定要先做一下謝謝委員的指導也讓我們這邊可以宣傳一下所以機關署跟我們食藥署通例其實5月9號的時候就接到相關訊息也跟廠商直接就面對面去談過那我覺得他們過去最近有廠商也銷毀了800萬劑是因為國企"},{"start":6398.337,"end":6421.937,"text":"所以他們面對這一次的反應我們強力的希望之下呢動起來了那動起來的時間時效性上我們承認在可能這一個禮拜內大概到這個禮拜結束之前應該就進入趕上因為我們評過盤過有機關署這邊給我們資訊所以我們先建立了在我們的網路的第一頁裡面就有家用快摔點進去"},{"start":6423.493,"end":6448.966,"text":"哪邊買得到現在地圖上面都有點進去之後呢我們其實會有我們現在的連鎖藥局以及我們的超商的部分點進去現在有通路那現在不見得每一間都鋪進去的因為鋪貨的部分是在通路的部分那我們也尊重他們鋪路的一個方式我們盡量希望能夠揭露他們所有民眾可以用這樣的途徑可以就近的先確定到底這一家有還是沒有第一件事情"},{"start":6449.226,"end":6476.441,"text":"你上面有沒有顯示亮沒有 你的屏幕上有沒有顯示亮因為之前那個口罩屏幕他是會告訴大家有沒有亮因為民眾會有撲空的問題啊我們現在也請這個通路的不管是超商還是藥局的民所藥局能夠把亮的部分也能夠列進去所以在這個階段裡面他還沒有完全建置到那麼完整就可能要請各位民眾的時候要辛苦一下抱歉能夠把"},{"start":6476.861,"end":6490.776,"text":"他們能夠在裡面可以自考可以諮詢可以確立我想在這個禮拜內我們的量其實我們就應該可以算這個禮拜有四萬份會上不是 今天而已不是這個禮拜今天就四萬那你現在每天量產多少他們報給我的量到六十幾萬份但是實際上我們看到的是還沒有到那麼的量一個禮拜"},{"start":6496.662,"end":6520.716,"text":"一個禮拜有60萬 然後一天有4萬份嘛好 這個部分我是幫民眾問的因為現在很多人都是 一個人感染可能是全家都重所以他們很需要先確認自己是不是得到了COVID然後他可以尋求更好的治療所以這個部分我要求 這個快篩的部分就是一定要盡快到位 這個是目前我看到民眾的焦慮所以為民請命"},{"start":6521.736,"end":6526.36,"text":"一定要盡快做到好不好 這個一定全力以赴 請民眾安心第二個就是說在公共衛生的宣導方面過去你們會運用很多電視的跑馬燈啊廣告啊 但是現在這波疫情已經在期了 看起來是來勢洶洶我現在還沒有看到你們在各大媒體 譬如說跑馬燈不斷的提醒大家 或者是公眾的這些捷運系統提醒大家"},{"start":6547.197,"end":6557.668,"text":"戴好口罩這件事情現在已經變成是一個很重要的事情我覺得這事情你們還沒有做我希望可以做另外一個就是高風險的像這些長照機構過去我們是最擔心說這個來訪然後大家不戴口罩然後他可能本身已經有感染然後去了之後反而變成是機構的整個的群聚感染"},{"start":6568.88,"end":6595.84,"text":"那這一塊的強化他的管制跟風險我也沒有看到你們有更進一步的強化措施因為昨天看到羅一鈞他只是說鼓勵大家戴口罩他只是鼓勵但是你們現在如果隨著疫情的升溫我覺得這一些高風險弱勢族群的優先保護你們應該要回到你們過去疫情時代有些必要的措施該採取的譬如說如果是長照機構都是老人他是不是一律要戴口罩去探視"},{"start":6596.56,"end":6624.21,"text":"像這樣的一個措施你們什麼時候要啟動有沒有評估要啟動這個部分我們都有在做我想莊署長也利用這個機會跟大家現場好來署長你說那有關長照機構的部分那事實上我們在5月20號就是的時候再有發文就請他們去注重這個感染管制的一個部分那再來就是昨天我們事實上也有請這個衛生局跟長照機構就是說如果其實我們目前長照機構的這個"},{"start":6625.89,"end":6643.18,"text":"接種率已經就第一劑的接種率有四成到七成是不同的這個潮濤機構的管理單位而言那我們有再請他們說針對這個部分再再去這個看是不是有可能打第二劑或第一劑還沒打完可以再繼續打這個部分都有在進行以上報告"},{"start":6643.84,"end":6670.128,"text":"所以口罩部分沒有去探視的沒有要求要戴口罩我們剛剛說第一部分就是有關感染管制的部分的確在5月20號的時候有請他們去注意那口罩部分應該也是在這個裡面有在裡面去做提醒我希望這個部分不要鬆懈因為一鬆懈之後看起來這一次的傳染力還是高的所以應該就是要拿出這個比較"},{"start":6671.66,"end":6677.745,"text":"嚴正一帶的這樣的一個態度 做好這一波的防疫 好不好 是的 是的好 那接下來我要問一下就是今天有關於兒童托育專法你們沒有入法的 但是我覺得很重要的條文喔第一個呢 就是催少者保護條款應該要入法 這個是在我的版本裡面喔我特別去提到的 那主要就是看到過去在幼兒園特別是之前發生這個毛俊生案喔"},{"start":6696.898,"end":6724.849,"text":"他是從111年到112年連續的性侵跟偷拍多位孩童那就是因為他媽媽是園長然後裡面大家礙於壓力也沒有吹哨者也不敢舉報所以呢就是很晚才發現導致多名孩童受害那類似這樣的情況也有可能發生在0到2歲的機構當中所以因為在你們的版本我沒有看到任何吹哨者的保護條文但我的版本有我想問一下這個"},{"start":6726.249,"end":6751.21,"text":"整個衛福部部長你的意見是如何?我想非常敬佩委員提出蠻多建議的啦那大概有幾乎都是在其他的條例或者其他的規定會做到啦我們一定都把它落實啦那至於剛剛有人提的吹哨者是不是我們請周代理市長回答一下"},{"start":6752.473,"end":6774.706,"text":"跟委員報告,那有關這個吹哨者的部分目前確實在行政院版的條文裡面目前是還沒有訂的那這個後面在個別條文的時候我們可以來做一個討論那當然現在我們也會再去檢索一下目前已經有的那個現行的法律裡面其他通案性的對於吹哨者有一些保護的部分如果已經可以再適用的話也可以一併可以做一個參考"},{"start":6776.006,"end":6791.691,"text":"我想這個部分是對於孩子的保護特別0到20歲他完全沒有語言表達能力這個部分更需要我們大人來做第二個部分是監管員的部分我也贊成這個整個監管員其實是可以做到但是在做到的過程當中同時我也聽到"},{"start":6795.113,"end":6806.911,"text":"這個托育相關業者他們是有些反彈跟聲音然後那主要就是他們為了這個監管與的界階其實他很多的設備要更改第一個就是說他的費用你們有沒有去想到在這過程當中他們為了"},{"start":6810.155,"end":6834.108,"text":"達成這個監管員的目標這當中政府是不是給予適當的一個補助另外一個就是溝通就是業者會覺得好像政府都把他們當賊看了就是但是他們在第一線他覺得他們也很辛苦啊他們多數其實是不想傷害孩子的但是我們整個保護機制是因為有少數他其實就是傷害了孩子所以我們才必須用這麼強制的手段但是我覺得"},{"start":6835.068,"end":6841.173,"text":"這個整個中央政府地方政府跟業者其實是三位一體大家是共同要來推動這個保護孩子照顧孩子的工作的所以過程當中我也建議不要太讓業者覺得被汙名化或者是說"},{"start":6850.681,"end":6863.479,"text":"有這種敵意就是整個社會上好像對他們產生極大不信任感跟敵意而是應該你們跟他可以有一個比較好的溝通那到底他的困難在哪裡我們理解他的困難我們提供資源然後往這個目標邁進我覺得這個才是合作夥伴"},{"start":6866.443,"end":6871.345,"text":"因為其實第一線坦白講那個經營也沒有那麼的容易其實也是很辛苦的照顧工作那這個部分我希望這個要提醒部長你們在實施一個好的政策的時候溝通也是很重要資源到位也是很重要"},{"start":6881.59,"end":6885.593,"text":"我比較贊成是從一個輔導的角度去共同達到這個目標而不是從可能有發生這樣的一個案例然後就對這個低限的這些照顧的業者就是產生標籤化或者是有產生敵意我覺得這樣子好像也不是一個好的對於整體照顧環境未來更好的方向"},{"start":6903.032,"end":6924.147,"text":"好 謝謝委員這樣的指教 這個就好像醫病關係啦醫病關係不是對你的啦 是大家共同為了病人的健康在努力一樣 我們都是為了小孩子 為了讓家長安心我們自己都養過小孩 這疼命命對不對一個小孩子送出去那種 怎麼樣讓他"},{"start":6925.208,"end":6941.387,"text":"安心我想照顧的人也很希望給家長安心所以不要自己或者是不要彼此任何汙名化而是大家共同來創造一個更文明更保護小孩的一個國家一個環境用這樣的理念來講"},{"start":6942.668,"end":6965.22,"text":"任何做對這方面有幫助的都是光榮的事情但是有困難的話那我希望你們資源要到位好不好我們只有要求就是說業者當中需要的一些資訊協助設備協助你們應該要提供資源我們會了解困難來幫忙對我們就是攜手合作然後把孩子照顧好我想這個才是我們這一次修法的一個目的跟目標好不好好謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝王委員還有一些部長"},{"start":6971.84,"end":6992.358,"text":"那接下來請 委員會這邊再重新宣告等王委員宣達結束之後 我們就休息十分鐘接下來請蘇星元召委 不好意思好 謝謝主席 我請部長來 我請部長"},{"start":6998.113,"end":7025.872,"text":"部長辛苦了日內瓦我已經開過三次了那很難啦 又去駁恩又去堆每一個人都盡他的本分 做得非常好我看你我都有每天在跟人追蹤我又發LINE給你鼓勵第一個兒童托育服務法 這個把它整理出來"},{"start":7031.855,"end":7042.96,"text":"提高居家托育未接保母職業的資格第二個就是違規祭典托育人員救責"},{"start":7045.076,"end":7057.823,"text":"終身不得任用等等等等透明化的機構管理查帳、查核我這邊先打住我是覺得我們的脫衣人員待遇太多了"},{"start":7059.248,"end":7087.088,"text":"要求一大堆,薪水這麼多,我一再的講那天在屏東農總也是一樣,那天找不到婦女人員,大家都拖拖有肩膊所以市總理就比較衰,大家都爛了結果真的是我們這些醫事相關人員、托育人員,我是覺得要寬列預算寬列很多預算,提高他們的待遇,才能去給他要求"},{"start":7088.243,"end":7110.832,"text":"人家說不叫而殺,為之虐,那你這個薪水給太少,要吃飯才選問題啊要求幾大堆,還要給他公佈,還要給他終身不得任用每一個人都有他家裡的經濟因素,每一個人都有他的壓力所以我是覺得,讓這些人員能夠待遇好現在三三萬幾公尺要選我啦"},{"start":7112.593,"end":7129.22,"text":"現在多少?稍微報告一下其實在這方面政府這些年來也在立法院的督促之下其實一直在努力往整個工作環境跟尊嚴當然有改善很多都有改善"},{"start":7132.361,"end":7148.305,"text":"公文報告目前公托的部分原則上是在3萬8那準公托的部分一年之可以從3萬2到3萬9那目前那個薪資水準大體上和幼教是相當的你現在還把那個小孩子從15個減到12個嗎"},{"start":7152.796,"end":7165.064,"text":"那是幼兒園因為跑到東港去跟我陳情說在這樣裡面一個人頭才補助多少錢那個都太少了啦他們希望大到兩千塊等等"},{"start":7171.332,"end":7191.54,"text":"政府是一體的,我們會努力對啦,那個都要給他們,不然讓他們連機構都維持不下去,那是要怎麼做我一再的講,你健保金一年兩年三年,你寬了很多預算部長很厲害,市長也很厲害,你弄很多錢來你都把台北都站在那裡,議事人員"},{"start":7195.939,"end":7223.277,"text":"讓你心情比較寬 讓你心情寬讓人家老了 老了 老了再多再多叫我白人醫生已經犧牲很久了繼續犧牲幾年 不用啦所以把醫事人員的心智能夠拉起來讓他們能安心的上班好 那第四個錄影三十天上雲端嘛要 這個是堅持要做"},{"start":7225.083,"end":7240.511,"text":"還是他們是說儲存因為他很怕被那個機構說他很怕被有心人士就去網路抓下來然後就去做廣告做什麼的或是渲染這個是很要不得的喔很多喔這個你也無法可管"},{"start":7243.352,"end":7263.785,"text":"這個是很嚴重,他們很擔心的就是這裡,電視都完全沒信心嘛完全沒信心,叫人放在雲端,讓他們自己隨時可以看這對那些從業人員是很大的一個侮辱,我是覺得這個要報告委員,這個就是我剛剛講的,我們共同如果為"},{"start":7265.367,"end":7279.879,"text":"把孩子的健康共同來思考只要對孩子的安全照顧是好的不管你是托育機構的人員不管是家長大家共同往這個目標你就不會覺得有時候好像"},{"start":7281.72,"end":7291.767,"text":"叫做動作什麼這樣我們醫生在診療的過程當中也常常一直被要求很多就包括健保署也給我們監督嘛對不對我們也覺得如果你想說讓製度可以完整"},{"start":7299.172,"end":7322.791,"text":"路徑比較長的,能夠符合民眾的需求期望,也許我們這樣子心裡就會比較像醫療院所公共走道你有monitor,那當然那你說在病房裡面也有monitor,然後那些東西要上網,那得了啊所有醫護人員全部不幹啦"},{"start":7323.912,"end":7344.618,"text":"那個是很糟糕的事情當然這不是馬上就可以隨便就可以查啦這還是有很嚴謹的就好像警察派出所在很多地方錄影他也不是隨便可以人家去看那個也是有特別原因但是那個是說將來萬一有什麼狀況的時候我也是希望預防醫學啦有一點點"},{"start":7351.893,"end":7379.273,"text":"有在注意的時間我們就抽一下最後一個是那些場地啊學校有現在很多學校都都沒人選啊所以可以轉型是很好讓大家或是法人機構可以來使用好那下一個這個ACP這兩天很多人打電話來跟我討論那現在的重點就是說來下一張"},{"start":7381.147,"end":7385.689,"text":"現在3千多元3千多元是輸入金所以簽署率很低那這個3千5是不是由政府來付"},{"start":7396.724,"end":7412.083,"text":"那支持的理由就是說這樣可以提高他的普遍性那反對的理由是說前面健保資源有...這要健保出了嗎?如果要出是健保會出嗎?不,我們的條件是健保出,這個時事長要說出來是殘障的"},{"start":7416.848,"end":7432.953,"text":"跟委員報告,目前我們5月1號開始是針對65歲以上有重大傷病的另外就是這個在那個加1計畫裡面65歲以上有多重慢性病的所以已經開始付了?5月1號開始這些對象就是已經開始要注意到未來準備了"},{"start":7442.421,"end":7461.494,"text":"我常常說醫療做得比較好、比較久的,我們死亡之前五、六年都在臥床,是真的那麼嚴重嗎?我是不知道啦!那個就是要推展安寧環合醫療的概念啦!對啦!不過我們的國民平均壽命也不是很長啊!"},{"start":7463.567,"end":7475.652,"text":"自己說要在場地下去判定 現在是在醫療院所現在放寬到安養中心 護理職業都可以部長你怎麼看得出來這樣醫界是反對的八大醫師團體都跳出來說暫緩暫緩暫緩"},{"start":7489.255,"end":7502.599,"text":"這種有生命教育的成分跟未來醫療成分的一個綜合體所以它當然要容納各社會各角度的意見雖然我是說實在這個法的過程當中"},{"start":7505.18,"end":7522.31,"text":"當然趙偉霖也有付出很大的心意我有一點點參與所以大概知道他的用意就是看看這個法的走向會偏向於生命教育或者是在於實際上他末期的時候的醫療的一個狀況"},{"start":7524.777,"end":7541.863,"text":"不然他怎麼樣去撐這個疫苗其實他面臨到真正十年後五年後十年後的一個狀況我相信那個團隊照顧的團隊還是需要再重新因為當時的科技很不一樣可能觀念"},{"start":7543.383,"end":7567.313,"text":"個人的觀念也會有一點改變那個面臨還是需要再做好好的有專家來針對他的病情來討論說怎麼做才是對於這個老人家這個病人最好的一個照顧模式臨床醫的時候還是要好好的去解釋所以還是要跟主席報告主席"},{"start":7574.329,"end":7589.741,"text":"平定的人,這個人的成員不能夠更簡化,更簡化真的會失教至於場所,要在護理之間要在哪裡,是由這組人過去這組人的配備跟結構是要嚴謹的,不能說讓你自己一個人,這個太草率"},{"start":7600.948,"end":7611.516,"text":"所以這個條文如果要出委員會我們還是要好好的來討論啦所以主席報告你會是反對 現在是可以來討論 這樣好嗎市長 主要我們在說開這個會的目標就是要去簽嘛簽這個醫療書嘛 結論書這裡面有幾個現象 叫做維持生命的"},{"start":7628.496,"end":7628.817,"text":"雖然它不是醫療行為"},{"start":7637.684,"end":7658.369,"text":"但是它是在做的時候當然是醫療新聞在講當然不是醫療新聞這個是很專業的我等一下可以說因為我這個是做了三四十年十個醫師都恐怕沒有兩三個醫師有辦法去把這個講得很準確所以各個醫院在成立這個屹立醫族的團隊的時候"},{"start":7665.69,"end":7686.075,"text":"對醫師都一定是選擇有經驗的阿不然你叫一下,他還在好,時間到了所以我想問一條,跟你問喔醫師法42條實行細則,現在上來立法院阿,裡面規定很多很多很多阿,裡面最有爭議的就是壓抑那部分阿,你不要上來了喔我們到六月中就要,如果有意見就要審查"},{"start":7693.581,"end":7699.644,"text":"那結果我們因為現在都忙於結帳所以劉建國、劉朝偉到我都很忙現在整個媒體、網絡都在罵罵說劉建國、朝偉跟蘇清漣是擺爛裝死連部長也被罵了"},{"start":7713.732,"end":7733.089,"text":"所以這個你現在的看法我們先再延三個月那我下個禮拜要排委員會的公聽會我們再把他全部都找尤其是亞裔界的亞裔界真的是我不知道你有沒有買我是三不五時都要給你買一個這樣不知道劉建國有招人有沒有買"},{"start":7740.987,"end":7749.077,"text":"我想我們一切都按規定在處理啦那至於說所謂細則的部分我相信不管是醫師師"},{"start":7751.223,"end":7771.754,"text":"口香師都已經做過很多很多的溝通,真的大家我想所擔心的幾點,那個也都是按照原來的一個原來的辦法,不管是教考選部或教育部的辦法去做處理,我們完全沒有做任何的一個"},{"start":7774.036,"end":7793.325,"text":"放鬆的一個做法這個真的也是溝通了很多次如果要再討論,我覺得也可以來討論下禮拜五在百貨院議員會議會,我們受不了,不要太沉重"},{"start":7798.128,"end":7803.316,"text":"本土的牙醫 日本的牙醫 歐洲牙醫 講不清楚"},{"start":7808.689,"end":7826.386,"text":"布林還是請Frank來推論像我個人的話,我家裡至少有20個鏈醫學系、牙醫系都是本土的我完全是站在希望一種按照規定的一個狀況來"},{"start":7828.828,"end":7846.634,"text":"來做處理,但是真的有疑慮,我們願意大家來討論我們所有的下一代因為父母親婚姻遷徙、職務的關係他在國外受教育,他是中華民國的國民,他回來台灣"},{"start":7847.754,"end":7873.115,"text":"他是中華民國國民他當然受憲法的保障他可以在這邊考執照考什麼你要怎麼考多嚴格那是另外一回事但是你要有條件讓他們考這個是一個國家保護國民我就看到很多外交官你們你這次去外交官的子女爸爸吊來吊去吊來吊去那小孩子就留在某一個地方就一直升學一直受教育那回來台灣要考個律師考個會計師考個醫師執照"},{"start":7875.56,"end":7889.567,"text":"你不能讓他考,天底下哪有這種事啊你的資格考要多嚴格,那是你要頂日本也是一樣,所以這個不能說他都不能考他都不能參加,沒有這個事情,這個公平爭議也說不完所以讓他們可以考,你要怎麼考、要怎麼寫、要怎麼改"},{"start":7897.739,"end":7921.458,"text":"那個實習,你的PGY要多嚴格,那時候都是可以安排的吳大夫你覺得這樣是怎樣?對啊,我認為這重點就是要守住人民的一個醫療的品質在這樣之下,這是一個還有公平性所以他的不管是入學啦、考試啦,對他真的是要嚴格的規定"},{"start":7922.714,"end":7942.489,"text":"每個學校都是一樣,在哈佛念也是一樣,在哪裡念我們都要檢視它是不是真的有好好的接受過一個信念當然我們在名額上也做了最大的一個限制也會做限制好謝謝"},{"start":7950.2,"end":7975.781,"text":"邱部長,兩位醫療界的上人兩位醫療界的上人在溝通的時候,一般世俗主人只有可以冥想的份而已所以剛剛去冥想了,接下來請王振旭、王委員來做詢問謝謝主席,謝謝召委讓我趕快能夠有機會來請教一下我們邱部長來請部長"},{"start":7981.212,"end":8003.748,"text":"委員好 委員辛苦了從太陽的地方來的非常辛苦 王委員非常的用力做國際外交不過還是有幾個事情來利用今天的時間跟部長討論一下"},{"start":8005.069,"end":8025.007,"text":"第一個還是有關於兒童法我們兒童法也知道剛剛大家很多委員都把自己修法的一些想法都能夠提出來做報告本席這邊是有提供了三點希望能夠有更多的機會來讓大家在討論的時候可以了解我們的重點包括"},{"start":8025.467,"end":8045.068,"text":"影像設備的這個保存上傳的定期追蹤檢查機制等等第二個就是希望不要斷點能夠強化家長調閱跟事發後的保存還有違反公開資訊的整合查詢平台能夠做有效的建議那第一個部分就是目前我們這個錄影是有規定下一張"},{"start":8047.222,"end":8056.589,"text":"有罰則 可是沒有定期檢查的機制這一點比較可惜 因為如果沒有定期檢查的話通常回去我們就不知道到底出什麼問題所以我們在第30條之3下一張"},{"start":8063.954,"end":8087.87,"text":"就有希望能夠有追蹤檢查在地方政府這東西錄下來這個過程到底有沒有持續的去保存好我們希望有追蹤檢查的機制那這個部分我們期待是地方政府能夠這是第一點再來在這個上一張我們還看到就是說再下一張"},{"start":8088.959,"end":8113.3,"text":"在這個托育機構的部分 我們希望在保存的過程裡面如果有哪一些異常的話 它的法則是要穩定就是包括入院設備有沒有問題 保存期限有沒有按照規定保存30天那上傳系統本身如果出異常的話在第61條如果有處分的話 那個費用要跟前面是一致的 希望能夠維持這個整個"},{"start":8115.422,"end":8141.752,"text":"在法則上的穩定性那我們下一張看得到的就是說我們很擔心有時候這些影像的保存的調閱權能不能夠落實因為在韓國他們事實上是有很完整的這個家長調閱權讓看不到畫面跟看得到真相中間是可以能夠有順利的把這些該有的畫面都能夠保留下來那同時家長在第一時間就能夠有調閱權"},{"start":8143.272,"end":8171.978,"text":"所以我們看下一張就可以知道說我們希望這個確保影像是沒有斷點的因為我們也知道強化第一時間的這個取證還有事發後的保存這個是能夠讓家長最信賴知道說事情是不會因為有哪一些的異常而無法得到最適當的訊息所以我們在這個第三條部分也希望能夠把家長的調閱權能夠做明化的規定"},{"start":8172.398,"end":8189.813,"text":"那至於我們訂到很完整這個就需要做後續的細則的這些處理那另外在46-1也希望能夠針對內兒涉及不當的對待的時候呢這個主管機關需要把這個影像儲存到案"},{"start":8191.594,"end":8216.726,"text":"縣終結30天不要說提早就讓這個內容去受到不當的損毀這個是希望也能夠再加強的地方那最後一點就是違法公開資訊的整個查詢平臺我們現在看到的平臺就是沒有辦法非常完整的去讓第一時間的家長就能夠讓他非常的確認這個處分的對象包括機構、托育人員違反"},{"start":8218.247,"end":8246.725,"text":"條文還有金額跟日期等等我們希望能夠有比較好的整合性的查詢平台讓未來的家長或者是有需要的人能夠讓這個知行權跟托育透明度可以比較完整這是有關於托育法在我們本席辦公室經過討論以後希望能夠提供給部裡面還有將來在討論的時候一些重點這部分不知道這個部長或有沒有其他的要再補充"},{"start":8247.758,"end":8269.245,"text":"我想這個部分我們也有針對王委員的意見做一個詳細的研議是不是理事長就回應一下非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我想確實這些就是要做到讓家長安心我想這個相關的方向我們會朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":8271.966,"end":8294.606,"text":"好 那就期待我們也把這些重點能夠到時候討論的時候也讓部裡面做參考謝謝那第二部分可能要麻煩這個國務院許副院長就是我們近期在討論如何能夠善用這個國務院的研究成果的時候發現在搜尋相關的訊息上碰到一些困難"},{"start":8295.607,"end":8314.892,"text":"或者是有他希望能夠再改善的地方因為我們知道國務院其實做了非常多的研究作為一個政策性的這個最重要的這個機構尤其是在衛福相關的這個內容裡面做非常好的政策研究跟政策的建議可是我們希望能夠再"},{"start":8316.492,"end":8342.651,"text":"內容的查詢上,尤其是研究成果的內容查詢上可以有更明確的呈現方式我們從這個首頁裡面進去的話看到有論壇,這個論壇有很多的建言書等等可是當我們真的要看這個論壇裡面的成果的時候呢就必須要透過在這個首頁上面的行政單位的下面的這個院長室單位來查詢"},{"start":8343.732,"end":8370.724,"text":"相對是比較不直觀啦就是沒辦法說這樣如果我想要看到這個國會院的論壇下面有哪些研究成果其實是有它的困難度那另外我們也注意到就是在這個國會院裡面有很多的研究所很多研究所當然也做了非常非常多的研究那以癌症研究所為例它有呈現研究的部分有癌症研究這個item還有研究成就這個item"},{"start":8371.804,"end":8386.238,"text":"那如果是國領域的醫學研究中心他用的是研究成果那如果是群建所他用的是著作與出版這每一個看起來每一個研究所本身的這個成果的表達方式"},{"start":8387.159,"end":8408.05,"text":"也不是那麼一致我們期待同一個單位我們希望他在呈現的一些內容上面有他的一致性我相信這樣對外人想要了解國研的所有研究成果不管是在哪一個單位就有一定的這個邏輯可以做做一個諮詢的一個一個可能性的這種方便那我們以這個勞動部為例的話"},{"start":8409.631,"end":8425.968,"text":"那勞動部他就用研究原地跟展示出版中心這樣ICON他就能夠很快去知道這研究的成果那以國防安全研究院為例的話那他也是用研究出版當然這不是說一定要這樣做像這個"},{"start":8427.789,"end":8451.319,"text":"國防安全研究院的研究出國就用年度報告就是你哪一年做了哪一些方面的研究就很容易讓外人可以得到相關的信息這部分不知道副院長還有沒有其他可以在討論的過程裡面希望能夠改善的部分我想國會院是等於是我們國家的Health Bank健康的智庫"},{"start":8452.375,"end":8459.126,"text":"所以他是非常重要的也創造了很多的我們整個科技醫療科技成長的一個基礎"},{"start":8460.608,"end":8488.339,"text":"那第二個就是說,其實我們在研究的時候,我想不管是習院長,現在是國務院副院長,現在是台北總統院長、台東總統院長我想他跟王教授都是學者,我們三個應該都有發表至少一百篇以上的期刊所以研究應該都是做了很長的時間那這個還是在研究的過程當中,其實有些是"},{"start":8490.38,"end":8510.219,"text":"有些都要尊重著作者他的同不同意釋放那有些單位可能會跟他簽像剛剛你委員呈現的幾個單位有可能他可以呈現是因為他們原來就講好的那國會院的一個特色可能不太一樣這個是不是要請許副院長回答一下"},{"start":8511.383,"end":8527.946,"text":"委員早安,謝謝委員對我們的指教,其實我們對所有的成果,我們回去會重新再彙整,便於所有關心我們國務院成果的這些學者或是外界的民眾,怎麼去做適當的檢索、搜尋,還有一些適當成果,當然要符合這些法規的規定。"},{"start":8528.806,"end":8549.648,"text":"已經公開發表的相關的我們一定會去會把這些內容再重新整理網頁謝謝好好那就麻煩徐副總好謝謝那再過來就是因應這個新冠疫情啊國研需要落實防疫這個大家都非常關心呃莊署長也在現場哦呃想要針對目前的這個疫苗的庫存量"},{"start":8550.448,"end":8571.4,"text":"還有這個提升民眾的接種的意願當然現在應該突然意願就會提高很多還有篩檢量抗病毒用藥那有一些變異株如果我們現在去市面上買到這些快篩劑會不會對變異株的這個敏感度有問題這部分是不是也請署長這邊或部長說明一下我先報告一下我們的"},{"start":8573.181,"end":8600.175,"text":"剛剛有報告過家用的篩檢一定這個禮拜會把它鋪上去,所有的民眾都不用惶恐再通路大的超商跟大賣場等等聯手要集還有幾個前家超商這個大概最快鋪"},{"start":8601.221,"end":8630.241,"text":"那個別藥局也許可能要問一下連鎖藥局方面可能會比較快那這個部分量一定超過很快就會超過我們疫情可能會感染的人數所以請大家不用搶購有必要的時候才去買適當的量我想這樣就可以那另外藥物方面疫苗方面我們非常充分我們還很希望大家一直鼓勵大家打在10月以後以10月以去年的10月以後沒打過的"},{"start":8631.141,"end":8656.596,"text":"都可以去6個月以上的都可以去打第一劑那180天以後如果是65歲以上的啦或者免疫比較逼不前的民眾們可以再去打第二劑來保護自己我想這個部分藥物的方面我們至少Pashlopit還有46萬人次"},{"start":8658.397,"end":8667.324,"text":"能吃的份 所以以每次來用十幾萬份的量 這個是很足夠的那至於會比較詳細的先導是不是請莊署長補充一下"},{"start":8670.533,"end":8684.845,"text":"報告委員那有關這個疫苗的部分我們現在每兩個禮一個禮拜有兩次會詢問這個衛生局那他們有需要說再增加疫苗量我們都會再即時的配送像上禮拜有打了7.1萬劑那所以"},{"start":8689.849,"end":8717.049,"text":"4萬劑啦所以我們昨天事實上也配了7.1萬劑下去禮拜四才會再配一次那這個會讓民眾如果有需要打都可以打那再來就是您剛剛詢問的自己有關這個快篩是不是變異株是不是會有問題那因為那個病毒變異的部分跟快篩檢驗的比方是不一樣的所以目前應該是說所有的快篩都可以針對目前的這個所存的變異株都可以檢驗出來沒有問題"},{"start":8718.73,"end":8740.183,"text":"所以這部分民眾是可以安心的去做篩檢那偵測出來應該正確性是可以把握的也就是說如果說是針對這個有高風險的比如說65歲以上或是有糖尿病等慢性疾病的病人如果有症狀那我們鼓勵他們去醫院或是買快篩來篩那就可以立刻用藥以上"},{"start":8740.523,"end":8767.232,"text":"OK好謝謝謝謝那最後就是有關於這次部長率領那麼多二十幾位的同仁去到日內瓦開了這個包括世界衛生大會相關的這個行動會議也跟周邊很多理念相近的國家做了非常多的會談那這部分部長有沒有辦法利用簡短的時間跟大家做報告還有未來的做法跟目標"},{"start":8768.332,"end":8793.922,"text":"首先我謝謝四位行動團的同仁真的是有些很少去就去準備還有最重要就是外交部的外管跟外管他們是平常的下的功夫所以在還沒有出發前就有用我的名譽在全世界各國有157篇以上的媒體的報導來先導我們台灣的一個成就以及我們加入參與WHO的決心"},{"start":8795.683,"end":8810.126,"text":"那經過大家的 而且在這邊也有雙邊多邊那立法委員的四島團又做得比我們更多還跑到柏恩在哪裡去做國會的外交所以我們不管是在"},{"start":8811.647,"end":8838.857,"text":"跟雙邊的會談、對邊的會談還有幫我們講話的國家甚至都比以前多所以表示我們我想外交部、衛福部我們的政府是非常努力在繼續來推展我們參與國際的活動特別感謝立委市導團比我們更辛苦來跟我們督導讓我們做得更好非常感謝好繼續努力我們期待明年可以更好"},{"start":8839.477,"end":8856.447,"text":"好,我們希望明年就能理事長所提的,我們明年就可以進到會場裡面去好,謝謝副長,謝謝主席好,感謝這兩位台灣藥界的上人,為台灣在世為發聲好,現在休息十分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":8868.379,"end":8871.702,"text":"四張以後第四張沒有因為我昨天問你說"},{"start":9503.413,"end":9506.435,"text":"好我們繼續開會接下來請邱政軍委員來做選擇來請各位回座會主席好我們請邱部長來請部長部長好我想請問部長"},{"start":9532.191,"end":9557.159,"text":"這個社會福利我們包含了兒少福利、婦女福利、老人福利、身心障礙福利保護福利、社會救助、社會保險那政府每年在重視社會福利說要把資源留給這個需要的人要建立完善的長照制度不能讓最需要的人被落下對吧那如果這些社會福利錢不夠的時候你覺得要先哪一個要先刪"},{"start":9562.423,"end":9583.958,"text":"我想每一個面向都需要,我們會當然都要顧及,每一個都是重要的,剛剛委員提的都是重要的我這樣講,這是衛福部主要推動的政策,那在執行面向是不是要靠地方政府來執行,然後相互合作?"},{"start":9586.124,"end":9610.307,"text":"我想中央跟地方相互合作當然是很重要的事情對啦 那今年我們衛福部在預算刪減後大概增加了300億那行政院整體預算刪完之後還增加了729億但是現在依法原本應該給地方的一般性補助款這個2502億其中的636億被行政院放回自己的金庫裡面"},{"start":9611.388,"end":9628.702,"text":"那也就是說行政院手上多了1365億元相較之下苗栗縣一年的預算大概是270億元左右行政院這次違法刪減地方的一般性補助款達27%這等於直接讓苗栗的整體預算少了28.1億元那這麼大的刪減"},{"start":9631.804,"end":9651.382,"text":"那衝擊地方政府的執行我想也包含了長照老人福利及公共衛生等基層服務的能力這不僅是苗栗的問題我想全台灣都會發生那我當然知道這是行政院這邊來刪減的那但是這個部分也牽扯到我們衛福部的一些業務那部長你有什麼看法好我想"},{"start":9653.184,"end":9667.681,"text":"委員應該也可以了解到我們這些年來,在行政部門跟立法部門的一起共同努力之下對於我們的弱勢,剛剛有提到的一些老人、心臟等等的各方面"},{"start":9668.582,"end":9688.005,"text":"都做了最大的 尤其像小孩我們現在也很理 怎麼樣做更好對 這些都是基本做的 都是很要做的事情中央這樣刪減 地方沒辦法做怎麼辦有些地方他是直接用電付 他們自己有錢他不夠的就去借錢嘛因為財政是 國家是一體的嘛那這邊如果"},{"start":9689.066,"end":9712.837,"text":"在某些法律之下分的比較多可能未來他就要擔任比較多的工作我想這個部分政府會考量考量到整個就是橫平性拿多少資源就做多少事但是總之大家是一家人意思是說錢不夠的話其他的就是可以不要做就對了"},{"start":9713.933,"end":9713.953,"text":"那個"},{"start":9720.12,"end":9744.131,"text":"還是要那個該做的還是要做那財源我們過去的財源不管你是在這原本是一般性補助款嘛或者是波比要多到地方不管是法律的改變讓那個財源有轉移到地方那地方當然就要負責任現在就是沒有錢啊現在沒有轉移過來嘛現在就是錢不夠啊"},{"start":9745.502,"end":9763.493,"text":"像這些都會影響到部長您認為你的業務裡面有沒有其他部分受到影響那影響的話怎麼處理錢又不夠像苗栗縣沒有錢他必須連舉債都不行那這部分要停還是衛福部派人來執行"},{"start":9767.816,"end":9783.276,"text":"那個因為我們原來就有中央該做的跟地方該做的那原來在預算方面就有一定的分配那後來預算的一個分配一般性補助款是地方來做中央委託地方做嘛對不對那因為你現在錢不給他了他沒辦法執行啊"},{"start":9785.097,"end":9814.757,"text":"那個是也不能取債啊你要怎麼樣停下來全部停下來非常感謝委員的那個關心我想這個就成如剛剛部長說這方地方我們都是一體嘛都是為人民來做事嘛但我現在必須要澄清一點就是說並我想這個主要應該是緩發啦而且另外一個很重要的重點就是說我們現在目前一般不入款雖然現在目前就這樣處理可是地方到地方現在目前還是可以根據施政的這個優先順序來做來做這個相關的一個調整問題就錢不夠啊怎麼優先啊"},{"start":9815.458,"end":9817.044,"text":"後面怎麼做你說緩發他怎麼緩發"},{"start":9819.654,"end":9844.412,"text":"還是你要借我這個地方政府都有自己本身的優先順序跟權責我想這個自己本身都可以來做調配那你衛福部的立場你覺得哪個要先做哪個先不做這個我們尊重地方地方自己本身相關的一個處置所以你是說你剛剛講的那些項目都可以減就對了你衛福部支持做不發就對了"},{"start":9845.387,"end":9873.566,"text":"不是 報告委員 我剛剛已經說了這個整個一般補助款 這個現在基本上就是來 先跟委員報告那目前在衛福部的主管的社會福利的預算的部分那有關在給到地方我覺得沒那麼多時間 你也不要解釋你也不要解釋 我結論一下就是說我請衛福部 因為我們剛剛講的這些都非常重要"},{"start":9874.386,"end":9889.936,"text":"像這一般性補助款如果受到影響的這個縣市我希望衛福部您應該要拿出您專業的意見跟我們行政院這邊來幫地方來反映不要讓這些事情沒有辦法去執行我想這是我今天要問的重點我們這個事情就到這邊部長可以嗎"},{"start":9892.783,"end":9917.297,"text":"所以你要體恤一下我們地方執行的困難啦當然當然那這個部分我希望部長把這個聲音帶到行政院這樣可以嗎我想過去政府就一直很重視我們尤其是偏鄉或者比較弱縣市比較經費比較有限的一個社會福利我相信政府這些年來的努力大家都看得到啦那如果是政府的"},{"start":9918.762,"end":9946.164,"text":"預算被核三或相當凍結那當然就是可能會做一些調配但是我想政府對於各縣市的一個社會福利的努力一定會希望部長能夠了解我們民間疾苦有這個部分跟這個行政院反映一下因為有些東西真的是不能停好不好是我們一起來努力謝謝一起來努力那部長先請回一下您休息一下那我請這個各自會的代表各自有來嗎"},{"start":9951.744,"end":9955.631,"text":"來部長請回今天不是有來嗎?有,來林組長個人資料保護委員會籌備處林組長"},{"start":9969.082,"end":9989.55,"text":"你好我請問一下我們教育部這個葉秉成次長他不是法定可接觸個資者的身份那確認取得性平安的個資並公開在社群裡面那媒體上評論這個事件你們個資這個保護我們會掌握的嗎這個部分我們新聞上有看到所以你只是看新聞那現在你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":9999.433,"end":10027.697,"text":"我們立場的話基本上個資法保護的是所有台灣民眾的個人資料這個算不算嘛他為什麼可以拿到這個個資呢他的資料來源的話那當然是要看那個看當事人他取得的方式啦這是不是一起涉及公務機關內部未經授權流用敏感資料的個資保護的一個重大案件應該算吧"},{"start":10028.78,"end":10057.16,"text":"基本上資料收集的話都會有所謂的合法室友那教育部有沒有主動通訪你們這部分我們可能要回去再瞭解一下所以你們什麼都不知道對不對那各支會有沒有主動啟動調查這我們回去再瞭解一下因為這個基本上公務機關收集資料的話這是你們的業務嗎還是你們這個你們這個事情說只是酬庸的部門什麼事都不用做"},{"start":10059.224,"end":10066.406,"text":"沒有 這個我們會去了解這個案子已經出現那麼多天了耶你們怎麼到現在都沒有反應呢就當作沒有人講就算了就當作看不見然後自然飄過如果是個人他洩漏資料的部分的話這個有相關的一些可能會有相關的法律有規定相關的法律証明那我在這邊要求啦你們要主動調查而且公開結果好不好可以嗎"},{"start":10089.108,"end":10110.252,"text":"這我們了解了解是什麼意思這我們會回去再去處理主動處理嘛對不對那該送法辦還是要法辦啊對不對你們報告要提出來好不好因為時間的問題我不想浪費太多時間可以嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝邱委員"},{"start":10118.652,"end":10121.115,"text":"接下來請黃秀安委員來做詢問謝謝主席,我們請部長"},{"start":10130.37,"end":10148.151,"text":"好請部長,提醒部長還有會務部的相關的官員,這個法定的社會預算不會因為一般性的補助款有所變動,去影響到任何該支付的法定的社會福利預算,這個要很明確的表達清楚好不好?好謝謝"},{"start":10151.835,"end":10171.533,"text":"謝謝主席部長我想請教就是說我看到這個國會院兒童醫學及健康研究中心一些相關資料那我在看到就是說他們有提到在2019年有提出一個報告就是2030年兒童醫療與健康政策建言書"},{"start":10173.188,"end":10201.706,"text":"那部長你大約知道這樣的一個就是有關兒童醫療健康的一個研究那我想請教就是說這個5年來因為它是2019年5月提出來的那這份成果我們在網路上看到那除了這份有這樣的一個研究報告之外那還有其他針對兒童健康的研究還有其他的這種研究報告嗎"},{"start":10204.246,"end":10219.302,"text":"就是兒童醫學及健康研究中心國衛院的國衛院今天有人來嗎有有有 副院長追訓的過程當中我當然是也有參與的那個"},{"start":10221.98,"end":10233.579,"text":"提出的建言 我想我們也都有用各種方式在努力好 那我想請教就是說 2019年到現在就是兒童醫療跟健康的這個政策"},{"start":10235.755,"end":10259.591,"text":"除了這一份之外,還有其他份嗎?還是就只有這一份,從2019到現在也5年多的時間?國會院裡面的有兒童醫學及健康研究中心這是我們群體健康,包委員這是我們群體健康研究所,邱鴻義、邱所總他們主導的一個研究中心那我知道,那還有其他的研究嗎?針對兒童健康,針對兒童醫療,就只有這一份"},{"start":10261.483,"end":10269.812,"text":"那我想請教就是說這個我們國衛院底下這個兒童醫學及健康研究中心平常是在做什麼這個"},{"start":10277.254,"end":10301.193,"text":"我這邊補充一下就是那個兒童健康運動中心有一部分的成員現在大部分至少有一半以上的時間是協助我們做優化兒童醫療網裡面的所謂的食物的運轉中心的一個管理中心然後這個管理中心其實是透過協助我們推動兒童醫療網裡面做一些我們政策這邊的一個回饋包括就是說我們現在在推動的"},{"start":10301.593,"end":10327.903,"text":"核心醫院專責醫院重點醫院跟所謂的合作的網絡以外幼兒專責醫師這裡面到底怎麼樣才能夠往健康的方向去推動然後那裡面包含了幼兒專責醫師譬如說我要去提醒就是像那個過胖或是氣喘控制這個比較簡單的以及額虐的部分大概在協助裡面都是透過我們優化兒童醫療網的成果來做政策的一個算是"},{"start":10331.807,"end":10344.843,"text":"我今天為什麼會問這樣的一個議題就是說我們國衛院這個兒童研究中心因為我們在網路上看到就是有關這個兒童醫療跟健康的政策那這個研究是在2019年"},{"start":10346.044,"end":10366.844,"text":"到現在也將近五、六年的時間另外我看到在前天中山大學有一個跨校合作的研究就是說夜市營業場所產生的空氣污染物會滲透到鄰近家庭室內的環境對兒童的肺功能造成不良的影響"},{"start":10367.745,"end":10379.809,"text":"那這個是一個中山大學一個跨校的一個合作那我也看到就是說我們這個國衛院兒童研究中心曾經也有針對這個PM2.5就是說跟會造成我們兒童的這個"},{"start":10386.631,"end":10403.824,"text":"一些影響或是說一般民眾的這個影響就是說在這個網路上面都有揭露啦那我為什麼會特別這樣講因為就是說我們這個這個國衛院的這個兒童研究中心在網站上面的這個資料其實我覺得真的是真的是"},{"start":10408.854,"end":10424.132,"text":"一直都沒有更新然後就是這個數字或者是說錯字也都沒有更新就掛在這個網路上也掛了五六年所以我想要知道就是說到底這個國衛院的兒童研究中心"},{"start":10425.293,"end":10444.764,"text":"應該是一個政策的提供對不對應該是一個政策的提供那如果他提供的這個資料是錯誤的或在網路上面的這個資料是錯誤的譬如說現在這個國衛院兒童研究中心網站上面一個新知專欄就針對就是說兒童的流感疫苗"},{"start":10445.424,"end":10469.829,"text":"打或不打爸媽好煩惱的這樣一個衛教內容那上面有寫說目前國內具有流感疫苗許可證的廠商計有總共有4家啦那我上面我就知道說那我們疾管署5月2號的這個新聞稿表示說國內取得三家流感疫苗許可證的廠商總共有5家那如果說國衛院是一個兒童研究中心是要讓我們"},{"start":10471.57,"end":10497.904,"text":"這個所有爸媽得到最新的訊息的話應該是要提供最新的資訊那為什麼所提供的這個資訊都不是最新的那另外就是說我剛剛有在那個上面有秀出一個就是說那個我們的這個PM2.5或者空氣有沒有就是那個PM2.5這個行政院環境保護數這個也是在2015年這樣子一個"},{"start":10500.505,"end":10520.337,"text":"這樣的一個錯誤的一個文字然後就掛在那邊也掛了這麼多年所以我都覺得說你們到底這個國家國衛院的兒童研究中心到底有沒有在做事或者是在網路上面的這個訊息錯誤然後也掛在那邊五六年然後完全都不更新的"},{"start":10523.747,"end":10538.703,"text":"我想如果有這樣的情況,我們當然要去了解,不曉得副院長有沒有要補充?謝謝委員的關心,我們虛心接受指教,這中間有一些落差,特別是跟其他部門之間的一致化,這個我們會立即做檢討"},{"start":10540.204,"end":10569.364,"text":"我們當然希望就是說國衛院的這個兒童研究中心健康研究中心應該是提供這個好的政策那當然我為什麼會一直這樣提我們希望就是說每個孩子都能夠得到一個好的照顧然後尤其是在現在少子化那我們當然說每個孩子都不能少那一定都要得到好的一個醫療照顧那如果說國衛院的一個政策或者是提供的資訊訊息都跟不上"},{"start":10570.224,"end":10594.914,"text":"原本這個疾管署或者是跟不上這樣子原本的這個其他部會的話其實我覺得這個應該是要好好再去檢討一下可能也要你們內部可能要再做一個檢討啦另外我想請教部長就是在上個月總諮詢的時候我有特別提到就是說兒童要有一個專責的行政單位那當時部長這邊也有特別提到就是說會你們這邊會"},{"start":10598.817,"end":10604.068,"text":"會去做研議那我想請教就是說目前的進度到底是怎樣好我想謝謝"},{"start":10608.673,"end":10636.305,"text":"而少專者單位也是很多人的期望我想政府也非常的重視但是這牽涉到蠻多人力組織的各種必須要去再去調整整合所以一直在努力的溝通中但是會往正向的方向來做我想我們希望能夠很快的有一個"},{"start":10637.245,"end":10654.867,"text":"整個協調以後的成果那在這當中我們也不會輸入任何一個兒少需要照顧的一個各種項目然後這部分還是因為就是過去分散在幾乎以衛護部來講幾乎有八個司署在管道有管道兒童的"},{"start":10656.399,"end":10682.212,"text":"今天要去處理就是一個我們一直在克服的問題這幫人都做得很好都有他特別的一個單位在項目上面請大家放心一定沒有一個會去輸惹的在兒童的成長過程當中絕對都有來負責現在如果要把它整理就是需要組織架構這個我們會一直在努力"},{"start":10682.312,"end":10711.255,"text":"好那部長我希望說這個兒童要有一個專責的行政單位我覺得希望在你你能夠積極來推動因為不要讓所有的兒童的這個議題都散落在各部會另外就我剛剛有特別提到就是說國衛院的這個兒童健康研究中心他可能就是研究一個政策那臨床的部分臨床兒童的一個健康的研究中心其實現在台大醫院兒童醫院現在他們就有一個"},{"start":10712.296,"end":10732.457,"text":"這樣的一個這個中心那也希望說政府能夠支持那之前我在這邊也有特別提到就是說希望部長這邊我們衛福部這邊能夠支持那除了就國衛院本身我們的一個政策的一個這個研究中心之外那臨床的部分是不是也要有一個"},{"start":10733.998,"end":10758.937,"text":"這樣子的一個健康醫療的研究中心讓所有的兒童醫院可以一起合作那臨床碰到什麼樣的這個疾病或者是這個臨床所有的醫師其實也可以一起共同經營一起合作所以讓每個孩子在這個醫療上都能夠得到一個好的救治醫治所以我是不是可以再請部長針對這一部分你可以再做一個回應"},{"start":10759.602,"end":10782.159,"text":"好我想台大醫院願意來承擔這個國家這樣子比較尤其集中男男症的一個研究個人深表敬佩那其實現在的研究資源是有限的所以如果能夠有一個比較專門的一個機構那對於兒少的一個研究應該是有更多的資源那這個部分的角色"},{"start":10782.739,"end":10811.65,"text":"那到底是屬於在研究呢還是在臨床的應用呢這部分我們會再跟台大醫院來坐下來好好的來談一下他的方向以及說這個資源負責的部門是應該哪一個對他的這個發展他們想要的發展可以得到最好的幫忙讓他能夠真的是發展下去這樣子我們會跟台大醫院而醫醫院這邊來努力"},{"start":10813.151,"end":10832.309,"text":"部長你應該也知道就是說兒童醫院其實在所有的這個醫院當中大家會覺得是兒科的這部分其實是不會賺錢的啦那大家如果說願意付出然後也希望就是說因為讓孩子能夠得到一個好的醫治的話其實我覺得應該衛福部這邊應該要這個來支持"},{"start":10835.151,"end":10858.062,"text":"然後也要投入更多的資源因為真的少子化真的是很嚴重部長這個去年去年農年這個差不多13萬那我在想今年應該人數應該會更少新生兒人數應該會更少所以如果說願意生敢生然後已經生下來的這些孩子我們希望他都能夠平安健康的長大"},{"start":10859.182,"end":10865.29,"text":"所以我們希望就是說在這個醫療上面能夠讓所有的孩子所有的兒童都能夠得到好的一個醫治"},{"start":10865.984,"end":10890.867,"text":"好我想我們國家以及我們衛生的部門是全力往這方面來努力謝謝薇安的指教這個絕對是我們日以繼夜在希望大家能改生生出來照顧好我上次已經有詢問過你了那你也這樣子就像你今天回答我的這樣子所以我們希望說要有一些進度啦比如說這個兒童的專責單位或者是兒童的"},{"start":10891.868,"end":10906.542,"text":"這個台大醫院他們有一些臨床的這個兒童的醫療健康的研究中心類似這樣子的話我覺得應該是要有一些進度而不是你每次跟我講就是還要再討論或者是還要再跟他們討論或者還要再研究"},{"start":10907.623,"end":10923.928,"text":"兒童研究中心 劉玉萍市長剛好出處那裡我補充一下跟委員報告一下進度就是大概在3月左右的時候我自己就帶同我們到台大兒童醫院這邊了解一下他們的需求"},{"start":10924.668,"end":10945.078,"text":"然後那如果只有臨床研究的部分的話需要參與的單位就變得是國科會也要一起進來支持嘛然後那他們跟我說他們想做的是健康以健康這邊來講的話其實我就說如果是台大兒童醫院沒有找公共衛生相關的學者其實在這一塊上面就沒有我們現在這樣的講的研究議題的廣度所以經過討論之後其實台大醫院就說"},{"start":10949.44,"end":10971.705,"text":"那他可能就是短期的這個計畫原本是由教育部提供的這個可能要再做延長然後那所以他們現在正在進行就是內部的一個程序因為光要把它從原來只有臨床的要擴展到健康的時候要去做的協作單位變多了然後那那個那是三月的時候的事情所以就是"},{"start":10972.165,"end":10987.296,"text":"我們現在是在等台大同一院他們就是有一個內部的一個公司之後需要再做協作的時候我們跟他們其實有保持良好的聯繫管道我們希望能夠有一些進度啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝黃委員謝謝部長接下來請林淑穩委員來做選擇"},{"start":11012.235,"end":11015.638,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔是不是請邱部長來 請部長委員好"},{"start":11020.684,"end":11047.731,"text":"部長辛苦了 剛從這個WHA的會議那邊回來但是呢 因為今天專委拍了兒童托育服務法所以我們還是要討論一下 因為凱凱案的流行的保姆啊大家都覺得非常的惡質那社會高度矚目的就是說 像這樣的保姆怎麼可能怎麼可能沒有被發現 沒有被淘汰 還能繼續帶小孩"},{"start":11049.795,"end":11067.478,"text":"那我們來檢視行政院版的兒童托育服務法我們這樣如果說我現在問你不要講凱凱愛那麼誇張啦如果說把托兒留在家裡然後留給家人照顧然後自己跑去逛街你覺得恰當嗎放在家裡沒有大人照顧不是啦他保姆把托兒放在家裡留給家人照顧啦"},{"start":11077.136,"end":11097.344,"text":"非保姆本身 然後保姆本身跑去逛街你覺得適當嗎有保姆的家人保姆自己跑出去逛街當然不行當然什麼當然不行收拖的拖而人數超過法定上限嚴重超收這樣子適合嗎不適合那我剛剛講了再講一個例子也是這個"},{"start":11099.645,"end":11117.056,"text":"讓托兒趴睡 床上充滿了枕頭玩偶 訪員提醒說這樣可能會讓托兒窒息保姆回答說 我不改 你能拿我怎麼樣你覺得可以嗎 不可以用馬克杯裝熱水 然後沒有放置妥當翻倒後導致托兒受燙傷"},{"start":11119.518,"end":11131.529,"text":"這樣子喔 所以我不要講凱凱很嚴重的 我就講從這裡這樣的行為 請問你現在的行政院的版本是有什麼樣的棒子可以處理好 周市長要不要那個"},{"start":11140.479,"end":11155.015,"text":"不知道 照你們行政院版本你們是怎麼處理我們現在行政院版本的第八條裡面對於托育服務要提供的相關的保育內容裡面"},{"start":11155.555,"end":11184.201,"text":"那在第八條的第二項我們有關在托育服務內容的衛生安全營養生活照顧學習一些的相關的原則方式以及相關的事項那因為這個部分因為涉及到整個生活照顧很多的細節的部分所以是用授權的方式那未來會有這個法規命令的部分有細項的來來律定好啦我簡單用白話我們跟部長講一下啦這些違規啊目前都限期改善就沒事了限期改善啦"},{"start":11184.921,"end":11201.144,"text":"所以把我被抓到一次 演一下 乖一點改善期一過 不會有任何裁罰不會裁罰 也沒有任何紀錄下次再抓到違規 再限期改善 再乖一點然後沒有裁罰 沒有任何的紀錄"},{"start":11202.165,"end":11224.66,"text":"那你們現行這是現行的管理辦法然後我們期待的兒童托育服務法要用更高的規格來檢驗不適任的托育人員要讓孩子在托育的過程裡面的風險降到零幾乎是零這是眾所期待可是你們行政院的願板"},{"start":11226.121,"end":11248.156,"text":"你們的制度對現行的這些保姆的衛生安全的違規在你們草案裡面的第70條一樣叫做限期改善一樣讓違規的保姆乖一點點以後可以準規水沒渾然後他肆無忌憚還可以繼續違規繼續違規再乖一點限期改善"},{"start":11253.772,"end":11264.172,"text":"你覺得這樣子恰當嗎 你們的版本報告委員 剛剛您提的這幾點我們都覺得不榮幸你們新的版本就這樣子提呢那如果這個有 這樣我們"},{"start":11266.443,"end":11290.033,"text":"那就聽我們的 我們民間的版本來了本席代表民間所提的版本來了我們第81條第一項 針對衛生安全相關的違規已經改成直接採法之後再限期改善而因為這些攸關安全的議題不能夠不落實所以採到安全的那個違規要罰 要罰"},{"start":11293.274,"end":11312.661,"text":"那我們82條納入了祭典制不是每一次罰了一下不痛不癢然後繼續違規 不是我們參考交通違規的制度違規的拖遠遠的依照嚴重程度祭典1到3點兩年內累積到6點暫停新拖"},{"start":11314.262,"end":11324.42,"text":"然後呢 要公告姓名如果五年內被祭典暫停吸音托兩次以後又再度違規被祭典 廢證 廢證 退場"},{"start":11327.717,"end":11345.042,"text":"所以只有建立祭典制然後讓每一次的違規變成很重要裁罰 處罰 還祭典然後未來要廢照 這樣才有效蘿蔔跟棒子 棒子要有效的棒子"},{"start":11346.022,"end":11365.866,"text":"所以在這裡我們要給社會一個真正的交代你要讓這種不適任的這種地雷要出去好的留下來不要再讓不斷違規的人不適任的人留在這個場內把家長讓家長把孩子交到有風險的人手上那我現在再問你部長你同意好的托育的品質必須是基於好的勞動條件也應該要提升托育人員的勞動條件嗎"},{"start":11376.943,"end":11385.091,"text":"當然希望當然是希望 可是你現在確定這些托育人員同工同酬嗎你們現在有制定薪資標準的最低薪資標準的都是機構式的那居家托育人員是誰訂的你知道嗎"},{"start":11400.951,"end":11418.601,"text":"地方政府地方政府因地制宜的模式啊讓同工不同窮讓不同縣市之間的人員薪資差異很大而且地方政府扛不起壓力地方政府在審議的過程在決定訂薪資的條件的時候"},{"start":11422.063,"end":11439.201,"text":"受到很大的人情壓力然後相關團體的壓力導致整體來說居家托育的薪資條幅以及其他所受到的保障明顯不足不足跟機構式的托育人員未必的我們現在要說"},{"start":11441.824,"end":11464.649,"text":"只有好的勞動條件的保障才有好的托育的品質如果一個托育為什麼對機構要做基本工資的限制因為流動性高啊那如果有保姆他當然沒有雇主可是他自己就是他的收費就收這麼低你覺得他收那麼低可以不超收嗎他收那麼低會大家都"},{"start":11465.939,"end":11473.841,"text":"過一陣子還認老不認怨嗎自己的老伯老母其實就過得很累收了那麼低以他的勞動來講報酬不相當不對等容易情緒失控嘛有沒有可能所以我們在這種狀況裡面我們的版本你們都沒有討論到這一環我們的版本就是要求這個收費標準要由中央中央來扛起這個責任啊"},{"start":11495.748,"end":11522.538,"text":"你覺得呢?部長目前對於這個所有不管是機構或者是保姆的部分他的收費那收費的項目的原則那我們中央會來定一個相關的地方都是由各地方政府制定這個問題很大地方政府來定定"},{"start":11522.958,"end":11537.224,"text":"我們現在不希望地方政府繼續定定 中央要扛起責任 這剛好什麼困難啊我想這個都可以來討論好 那我再問你喔 我們現在0到2歲的托育的服務啊機構雖然居家室 比例各占多少多少孩子的機構室 多少孩子的居家保姆照顧比例各占多少"},{"start":11547.025,"end":11550.107,"text":"你不知道喔這件事一半一半那我要問你當我們在講說這兩種模式各佔一半的時候家長都必須你覺得怎麼可能工作跟生小孩就必須要二折一了"},{"start":11564.677,"end":11589.174,"text":"那如果兩個都做的人已經夠辛苦了 他找保姆或是找機構找到保姆的人 我要講我們政府在服務擴充的這個政策上的規劃和資源的挹注上面政府的資源分配在機構市跟居家市的預算分配上差多少你知道嗎 差多少 你自己報告預算"},{"start":11593.416,"end":11618.418,"text":"你現在對托育所有的政府的資源經費都依據在機構式啦我行政院你以行政院我國少子女化的對策計畫107到114年為例在提高0到2歲托育服務量的章節裡面所提到的4種政策目標都只鎖定機構式的托育不見社區公共托育家園"},{"start":11619.159,"end":11631.011,"text":"因地制宜的設置公社民營托嬰中心協助推動政府機關構提供員工子女托育服務提供公共化的托育相關人員薪資通篇都沒有看到政府對於擴充居家服務量能有任何短中長期的規劃更不要講逐漸浮現了"},{"start":11643.763,"end":11669.018,"text":"居家托育的這些人力老化保姆越來越老而即將要迎來人力斷層的危機的問題你們有提出任何具體可行的積極的因應的對策和解方嗎你們有重視居家托育的重要性嗎你們有分配任何資源給居家托育的這些這個保姆等等嗎"},{"start":11671.348,"end":11684.816,"text":"一半一半以去年為例700個孩子的機構700個孩子的保姆機構式的資源全部都給他居家托育的零這樣合理嗎"},{"start":11690.276,"end":11713.693,"text":"跟委員報告家長把小朋友不管是托到托嬰中心或者是居家保母基本上他能夠得到的托育補助是一致的另外對於居家保母的補助目前每年居家保母一樣有相關的補助對於托育的保母保母的部分也單獨有相關的補助"},{"start":11715,"end":11734.806,"text":"你們告訴我資源怎麼分配啊資源分配我現在在講說你們對於提升這一種服務量能你們是怎麼樣的分配當然準公共化公共化當然都有資源分配啊我們也知道保姆也有零啊但我不是在講這一個為了少子女化然後幫家長減輕負擔的補助不要講"},{"start":11742.688,"end":11759.285,"text":"我是在講對於機構市和居家市的托育你們在政策輔導上你們的資源分配給了什麼而面對居家托育的人力勞動人力的逐漸高齡化"},{"start":11760.626,"end":11781.366,"text":"再接下來就人力短缺 然後你們有任何因應的對策嗎你們投資了多少的政策資源 要去增加居家室托育的品質讓勞動力不要這麼高齡化 鼓勵年輕人也進入這個市場"},{"start":11783.248,"end":11804.45,"text":"你們做了什麼 我說不知道 包租 你的包租在幫助父母減輕他們托育的經濟負擔我現在是你對於這種服務托育式的服務和機構式的服務 你的錢全部都到機構式服務去而對於家庭托育 居家托育式的 沒有"},{"start":11805.231,"end":11816.846,"text":"市委員可不可以請理事簡單回答一下我認為你說的完全是重點你有沒有知道現在一個需求端一個供給端你現在說的需求端"},{"start":11818.258,"end":11842.149,"text":"這個是一粒品種 但是我相信 你現在說的那個整個供給端 這邊跟長照一樣嘛 有分機構 也有社區對 我在講供給端的問題 供給端的部分 我如果有人報告我們現在目前就是說 那個居家托育人員 如果說他有那個整個品質改善的話一年一萬八 但是我過去在台中 台中市政府 社會社會肯定 我覺得這永遠不夠啦"},{"start":11843.47,"end":11848.513,"text":"所以我這個部分你現在把你整體的經費除以同業人員去看他一萬八機構是平均分配的社會資源是國家部門資源數十倍啦不對 委員我感覺這個本來就應該要越離媽媽離那個居家越近越好所以這也是我們的少子女化政策的一個對呀 可盡興啊李先生為什麼委員所說的現在我也知道現在平均的保母平均年齡正在提高"},{"start":11871.809,"end":11880.972,"text":"對啊 保護都阿嬤化了委員我要報告 這個保安我要責成同仁所以你知道講到重點但你現在要回去好好的想應該的政府的資源和政策應該怎麼樣導入去協助他們吧這個保安我一定回來要求這個保安要做一些改善這問題對孩子問題比較好這樣我再來問你 次長你告訴我保證都不知道來我現在講居托中居托服務中心"},{"start":11901.26,"end":11913.529,"text":"居多服務中心應該是要做什麼的報告委員 居多服務中心一般來我們現在目前是這樣主要就是來像那個居家人那個保姆對不對他們會去那邊看 去那邊扶著那你們新訂的法規你們的草案裡面有對這樣的業務法制化嗎"},{"start":11922.895,"end":11945.717,"text":"我現在說一個故事給你聽不管機關為了迎合議員增加政績然後要求增加非計劃內的要求比如說開放居托中心內夜間臨托服務要求中心配合並更改上班時間然後到晚上10點訪員被迫改夜間上班居托中心變成臨時的24小時的托嬰中心你覺得適當嗎"},{"start":11947.438,"end":11954.925,"text":"現在是變成地方政府的小幫手你們是招資集來揮資集去看要做什麼他就是變成是這樣的補充人力嗎"},{"start":11956.244,"end":11961.347,"text":"報告委員這個我覺得應該要檢討週末的時候被要求辦理許多額外的活動和宣導業務你覺得是居托中心居托服務中心的應該要做的事情嗎這要檢討托育補助業務補件家長預領了款項叫居托中心的人要協助到家長家去收取預領的款項回來地方政府可以去做這個這叫居托服務中心的功能報告委員這個我想讓我們了解一下"},{"start":11985.638,"end":11988.742,"text":"很多地方政府都這樣你本身你都應該要掌握我跟人家要求居托服務中心要提供借月教具玩具服務跟其他的人家一些親子館托資中心圖書館都在做的都重疊然後叫居托服務中心也去做這個"},{"start":12004.099,"end":12019.825,"text":"適當嗎然後配合支援其他活動其他的廉價非托育業務有關的活動都叫他們去參加要動員適當嗎然後語言推廣要求協助推廣什麼什麼語言但沒有任何資源醫藥中心推廣這個合理嗎"},{"start":12022.006,"end":12045.208,"text":"所以我們今天在講的是說沒有明定居托中心的業務執掌仍然停留在一般的原則性規範所以居托中心居托服務中心這個角色這個定位這個功能他要設定成什麼難道不應該要好好的明定出來嗎是不是臨時人力資源所"},{"start":12046.241,"end":12066.793,"text":"當然不是啦 他正經來就要做什麼?正經來就要做什麼?包委員 他應該最主要就是要輔導我們這裡的服務人員去做提供比較好的服務包括 我如果委員報告包括就是說他有時候他要去選去看本來就是那是核心的 核心業務對 沒錯 我委員報告因為這樣 所以我們的卓院長他也很貼心他現在的薪資在去年從3萬"},{"start":12072.397,"end":12078.17,"text":"我現在就是要跟你講來 次長因為到時候修法會再談就是說法律裡面你們的草案都沒有想到"},{"start":12079.13,"end":12103.009,"text":"你們要直接明定化法制化他的業務權責範圍釐清中心他的角色案定位然後讓他正常正規的核心業務訪視人員發揮他的專業確實的去做好訪視工作掌握好托育的品質充分的評估照顧保姆照顧的風險每一個保姆都被看到被訪視被評估了"},{"start":12105.171,"end":12114.178,"text":"才能夠落實真正的居托中心輔導管理居托品質服務的這個制度的初衷現在都在打雜 又臨拖 又叫人去做什麼 去動玩辦那個什麼 辦獎典禮 辦什麼活動都不像話 地方政府都越來越不像話所以我們的草案都有 請你們到時候支持"},{"start":12131.191,"end":12146.216,"text":"感謝委員好 我完全同意啦 保證也常常要支持要蓋下去啊 你的行政院版本都沒想到 都沒這個制度設計 都要把它放下去好 謝謝感謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝蜀芬委員 接下來請劉建國召委發言好 謝謝主席 先請那個CDC的署長請署長"},{"start":12162.482,"end":12179.644,"text":"蘇長要因應疫情再起那相關的防疫的物資應該剛剛聽你的說明跟報告應該都準備就緒嘛是那有預估現在是五月我們就直接講六月七月八月有可能在台灣的確診人數這三個月大致上是多少"},{"start":12180.885,"end":12204.29,"text":"你們有抓出來嗎應該是說我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜大概可能會超過20萬人份一個禮拜就超過20萬人一個禮拜是指六月份的哪一個禮拜六月底七月初六月底七月初好那如果以六月加七月總共可能你們預估會確診的人數是多少"},{"start":12207.583,"end":12228.204,"text":"你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛對啊 應該主要還是在這個前後幾週啦那應該是說 呃 可能一抓出一個禮拜將近二十萬人會確診為什麼沒有辦法抓出六到七月這六十天到底台灣人會有多少人在確診八月底的時候有估了大概是一百七十一萬左右"},{"start":12228.664,"end":12232.912,"text":"到8月底有將近170萬人所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人等於每個月將近有30萬人會又被確診"},{"start":12240.552,"end":12263.004,"text":"是這樣嗎?是不是?就最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次啦你為什麼一直要跟我講最高我在問你六七八嘛那你一下回我一個星期一下就回我到八月底對到八月底八月初的時候是一百七十一萬人左右八月初那等於是六七月兩個月就會有將近一百八十萬人確診喔是差不多是這樣喔?是是是"},{"start":12264.096,"end":12287.295,"text":"就稍微補充一下就因為我們一起來去評估跟CDC這邊食藥署的我們評估起來預估會去就診不進去確診就診的時候我們會會評估要2.5倍的快篩的試劑的量所以預估會去就診因為因為有很多的感冒的有時候是流感不是啊FDA的署長我是在問確診你在回答我就診"},{"start":12288.215,"end":12311.146,"text":"對 就是說我們是利用健保署的那個診斷碼去估那大概就估大概是170萬剛剛我跟您說的就是到8月初的時候大概170萬左右是確診嘛 對不對就是說應該說臨床診斷有包括醫師的診斷還有加上這個快篩陽性的部分是你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低這樣的確診人數這個部分"},{"start":12313.707,"end":12334.497,"text":"所以我們在昨天記者會有說呼籲民眾自主的戴口罩也就是說到了醫院或是大眾交通工具的部分這個第一個是可以戴口罩那第二個就是在長照機構的部分我們有請長照機構這邊加強注意感染管制的一個措施還有就是說如果可以接種疫苗的話也呼籲長照機構很簡單我的問題也有重點"},{"start":12340.12,"end":12360.767,"text":"如果你們預估從6月、7月到8月初等於是兩個月時間而已啦那你們如果預估可能在台灣有將近高達180萬人確診的情況之下那你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫是不是可以降低這樣的人數嘛因為你看180萬短短兩個月"},{"start":12363.308,"end":12372.651,"text":"你要知道這些醫療機構能夠承載嗎像現在整個醫療的這麼緊迫的情況之下如果這兩個月又面臨到有180萬人去確診這些醫護真的會疲於奔命啊醫療會崩壞啊"},{"start":12380.293,"end":12394.733,"text":"主要還是以在輕症為主啦所以我們在這個呃 診所跟醫院的部分事實上都有提供這個呃 口不開 你不能保護我你不能保護我就要輕症為主啦你保護我這樣就不夠專業吧"},{"start":12396.639,"end":12422.098,"text":"現在台灣的醫療什麼情況我相信你比我都更清楚是部長也更更更應該更應該了解到這個狀況所以現在不是親中症現在議員說我們有呼籲就是如果是就是說你相關的物資都已經齊備你也召開了這個記者會但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變如何降低這兩個月不要達到180萬的台灣人再度確診community可以吧"},{"start":12422.718,"end":12451.177,"text":"第一個是可以吧可以提出這樣的應用作為降低這樣的確診人數可以吧不要讓台灣的醫療在這兩個月又漫入的黑暗期導致整個醫療崩壞導致很多的醫護到時候又有很多狀況沒有辦法在這個工作崗位持續的守護台灣的國人的醫療健康可以吧可以一個禮拜一內提出來好不好好謝謝兩位請回"},{"start":12452.778,"end":12475.63,"text":"請部長部長我剛剛講這個事情非常重要我也不希望你當了部長之後還在披靡本命在應付COVID-19如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬即便輕症是70%那代表還有中症跟重症有30%台灣的醫療量能有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎我們會趕快提出具體的一個策略好 謝謝"},{"start":12477.131,"end":12495.886,"text":"我最好就是不要達到那個數字,數字就對了好不好我這23號,4月23號在委員會提出,跟部長也提醒就是國內的這個醫院被駭客入境的問題非常嚴重對不對那從去年,今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的這個狀況發生我在問的時候,5月6日會不會有相同的情況繼續發生結果又發生了嘛,5月"},{"start":12502.13,"end":12524.495,"text":"虎大醫院這個駭客入侵而且這是自己人內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資這是一個個案嗎台灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵啊不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料連內部員工都有辦法入侵而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資這是聯絡報的一個報導我們的衛福部的資訊處的李處長李處長有在現場吧"},{"start":12531.909,"end":12547.458,"text":"請他出席一下好不好來到台上齁你看齁 他說針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理目前外部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院五大醫院並未列入依規定若發生治安問題不須通報"},{"start":12549.884,"end":12575.292,"text":"不須通報李處長,你在哪裡?不好意思,李處長剛剛有來,他10點半換成副處長好,他有事先提出他10點半要離開嗎?有,他有提出,10點半,他有提出10點早委的資料裡面沒有喔有啦,對不起,10點半王副處長嘛,對不對?王副處長,李處長的答覆這樣是對的嗎?"},{"start":12580.44,"end":12589.026,"text":"陸域規定發生治安問題不需通報因為虎大不是在53家的關鍵基礎設施的醫院是這樣嗎他可以這樣答覆嗎可以嗎跟委員報告因為依照自通安全管理法只有關鍵基礎設施依照什麼法"},{"start":12601.198,"end":12624.267,"text":"資通安全管理法有明確規範關鍵基礎的這個設施的意願才必須要通報就是它依法需要通報那本部有建立一個資安情勢收集到底要不要通報 明確表達好不好 要不要通報"},{"start":12626.988,"end":12649.154,"text":"這個東西的話就在治安各自法裡面的話要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報需要一小時之內通報"},{"start":12650.253,"end":12675.642,"text":"一小時內就要通報嘛,對不對?不是就不需要通報?不需要一小時之內,還是要通報所以還是要通報嘛,分作一小時跟一小時之外就對了啦所以你剛剛的解釋,還有包含你們副處長解釋有點奇怪但我裡面寫這麼清楚,你們要這麼對外講法這是你講的沒有錯吧?依規定論發生治安問題不需通報"},{"start":12676.982,"end":12681.349,"text":"你後面才在補一區一個小時內跟一個小時外一個小時以上你們可以這樣對我解釋嗎?你要讓我再問下去嗎?"},{"start":12688.62,"end":12714.501,"text":"要不要通報嘛就是說他一小時外的話是要也是應該醫院發生這些事件都應該這是治安問題耶能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎你有相關的辦法的依據該通報就通報啊然後什麼叫做治安問題不需要通報我覺得這可能解釋的過程中他沒有完整的所以要怪記者 要怪這個報紙"},{"start":12717.322,"end":12724.705,"text":"請部長再開始下轍報導醫院發生這個入侵事件之後還接收到另外的報導說這個院內這個去"},{"start":12732.267,"end":12760.346,"text":"做這樣的一個事件的人是為了競選國會的代表他當用多名醫護人員的戰力幫自己投票同時發現提告後 後續又查出他利用遠端連線 駭進醫院的資料庫連覽病患及醫護人員各自包含第一名某林志明家族內上萬病患的各自恐外線教育部教育部有了吧你們做什麼樣的因應的作為跟處置我倒是教育部管了吧"},{"start":12763.254,"end":12791.821,"text":"府大醫院應該是衛護部吧衛護部管 那就教育部請回 抱歉我想這個可能媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況我相信你府大醫院他們的一個制度一定會因為他們醫院也不是很大所以應該會做立即的處理不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務一定要把他塑限"},{"start":12792.878,"end":12816.858,"text":"部長你講的說這個報導應該接近屬實嘛對不對你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛沒有錯吧好那如果是這樣這可能要再去確認一下他但是你剛剛已經有答覆我這樣了耶沒有我說可能我的意思是可能啦好不好沒關係也就是說可能接近屬實嘛完全掌握到真實的狀況啦是我要表達齁我反而不是針對院方"},{"start":12819.008,"end":12822.11,"text":"我要針對務務部你們的SOP是什麼你們的解釋依據法律的解釋管理辦法的解釋然後產生的SOP是什麼如果這個報導接見屬實還是它是屬於一個屬實這一個醫師人員現在還可以在醫院裡面然後進行這樣持續性的讓病患的個資再外洩"},{"start":12850.275,"end":12865.323,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下我們的SOP,那就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這部分是由醫事師指導衛生局,所以已經第一時間去做行政調查醫事師主導,醫事師要調查,醫事師市長請上來,你主導了嗎?你調查了嗎?"},{"start":12871.804,"end":12900.297,"text":"我要講補充的是我們發文給新北市衛生局這邊就醫院管理這邊做調查然後因為各自的洩漏的部分的話醫院的全責主管機關我們這邊會督導衛生局做調查做事件後面的調查為什麼說發文事件當天其實就發文下午我們也是見報之道的我們就是下午當晚的時候發文然後那目前只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態"},{"start":12901.798,"end":12908.884,"text":"事件發生之後你們就發文了你等一下把那張公文傳給委員會做參考可以好然後你什麼時候督導"},{"start":12910.373,"end":12927.52,"text":"因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到所以我們會再問一下衛生局目前然後可是衛生局初步的回報因為檢調機關已經進入調查所以他們現在手邊有的東西這個地方我會再確認檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查嘛你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛你們該督導還是該督導嘛對不對沒錯"},{"start":12933.749,"end":12950.974,"text":"部長 我在這邊具體的建立好不好 要求大致三項是不是重新檢視這整個資安通報制度不論規模 只要病患擱置外泄餘力就必須要進行資安的通報依照辦法也是如此至於一個小時以內 一個小時以上"},{"start":12951.754,"end":12968.44,"text":"我想可能要修吧那第二個同時衛生部及地方衛生局在接為醫療院所治安通報之後整個應變機制及醫院醫療院所要進行的應變措施也必須重新檢討是可以啊可以兩周內是不是可以提出相關報告好沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":12969.48,"end":12996.832,"text":"好,其他請回,最後,最後對不起,主席抱歉,因為剛才黃先生、張偉有特別跟部長在之前已經有聚焦過,台灣論不定撤銷一個兒少專者單位嘛,那部長也有做一些回應嘛對不對,但是到現在就是還沒有看到具體的這個,這個,就是誇出這一大步嘛,就是沒有嘛,顯然沒有就會出問題,剛剛黃偉也特別引用嘛齁,確實是容顏,"},{"start":12998.5,"end":13004.525,"text":"農年台灣的出生寶寶是3萬,你知道12年前的農年台灣出生寶寶是多少嗎?部長知道嗎?12年前的農年啦12年前喔?超20萬嗎?應該不難嘛我看不難啦你都不知道"},{"start":13025.717,"end":13047.482,"text":"衛生部有一個兒少的單位專門在注意這個出生率的嗎?衛生部出生率是國發部沒有錯啦,國發會衛生部要來照顧這些兒童基本上年十二年前的熔岩的出生率出生人數是多少都不清楚"},{"start":13050.593,"end":13057.661,"text":"你不要說差不多20萬,原本是26萬的,除了6萬你找到多少?19萬19萬是2年啦,12年前的2年啦,剛才說差不多20萬啦,也有1萬也有22萬啦現在剩19萬,第二年剩幾萬?"},{"start":13069.963,"end":13075.004,"text":"從小嬰一直到賴總統甚至要進入到2.0那如果我們看到手指化整個這樣的一個脈絡出生率降低的速度之快"},{"start":13095.11,"end":13122.835,"text":"衛務部會攔此其咎這其一那其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講而且剛剛洪偉特別是提到這個已經很多人講過了我要跟部長講大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂過去內政部還有個兒童局對不對主改之後創到沒了就中間了然後變到社家屬之後看起來好像是社家屬是兒童業務的單一窗口但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的"},{"start":13124.855,"end":13146.866,"text":"這個我想旅策也很清楚0到2歲這個大家都很清楚兒童同意服務社家屬管2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管兒童安置是社家屬管兒內又變成保護師管對不對然後凱凱安跟副長從社家屬保護師到地方政府都有份甚至以負責凱凱收出養的兒護聯盟以他進來是歸教育部管的文教單位你覺得有複雜嗎"},{"start":13151.195,"end":13158.583,"text":"我一直說那個孩子,那個孩子是我們的社會安全網有接到的,不是沒有接到,結果接到之後生命又放棄了。所以,內政部還有一個稍委會,警事務署還有一個副優隊,"},{"start":13167.267,"end":13190.558,"text":"你看 花幾個部會 花幾個機關啦齁這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考我想你們都很用心的在為台灣的醫療在示威去發聲了嘛那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛 也可以借鏡日本在2013年喔 對不起2023年他其實是 他已經整合了叫做兒童家庭廳"},{"start":13192.88,"end":13213.613,"text":"他之前一樣他兒童的相關的保護照顧的業務也分散在他們的這個文部科學省後生勞動省內閣府警察廳跟我們現況差不多啦跟我們現況差不多但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整個完成叫做兒童家庭廳有其必要吧"},{"start":13216.328,"end":13228.971,"text":"有其必要來依據這樣的一個參考不然你看社交組社交能力的分配女士應該會很累社交組署長也應該會很累老人福利組12個人身心障礙福利組18個人婦幼18個人兒少17個人家庭支持組21個人一個兒少出生率越來越低只有17個人"},{"start":13245.057,"end":13268.916,"text":"一個老人越來越多2021已經生不如死現在已經賴到超高齡社會百分之二十、六十五歲以上的老人人口快速結構的轉變專門在照顧這個最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的一個社會家庭署竟然才各組的分別才多十幾個人這不在應付啦這不在處理事情啦"},{"start":13276.677,"end":13299.293,"text":"我請部長還有次長是不是盡快引領應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情"},{"start":13300.254,"end":13315.058,"text":"是 可以吧可以 我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好 一個月內喔嘿 好這樣才代表積極嘛 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝各位好 謝謝陸委員好 接下來請陳培育委員來做巡檔"},{"start":13335.066,"end":13362.922,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請部長 部長在走上台的時候我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於兒少的關心 而且你舉了日本的例子非常棒 謝謝好 部長你剛剛回應建國委員說一個月內會研議嘛 部長我跟你報告在行政院兒少權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21列案當中不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭支部會最後狀態叫做未列管"},{"start":13364.355,"end":13383.403,"text":"所以在行政院那邊耳哨權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情那如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議你們一個月內要研議我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下對 次長應該知道我在講什麼我們那個耳哨權益推動小組裡面好 回到推法裡面我今天想要談"},{"start":13384.443,"end":13407.67,"text":"在CRC國內法化之後我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候不管是家庭不管是學校不管是社區我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接住所有的小孩這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神對不對"},{"start":13409.627,"end":13420.697,"text":"那確實衛福部在這幾年當中也確實做了非常多資源的盤點包含人力啦包含資源然後可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題我相信次長會部長你一定都非常清楚"},{"start":13422.555,"end":13445.615,"text":"從凱凱愛我們可以看見 其實台灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多那脆家越來越多有很多原因 我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點可是我們回過來看結果 結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多照理說照顧這些來自脆家的小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸 對不對"},{"start":13447.036,"end":13472.385,"text":"邏輯上是這樣 就是我這張兒童權利公約所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講意思就是說國內法化後我們政府規定我們政府自己透過法律 透過預算 透過人力我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些退家的小孩所以凱凱才會被送到保母家居托中心的保母家部長跟次長我要跟你們報告一個現況現在是這樣 下一張"},{"start":13474.506,"end":13502.101,"text":"這些退家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式的照顧的差異我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境因為這些安置機構的困境會展現在會投射在他們服務的小孩身上現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分目前我們的規定設置標準22支一條不管是保育員或是生扶員的照顧是1比6"},{"start":13502.961,"end":13526.233,"text":"就是一個大人要照顧六個小朋友很困難啊 柏定是你覺得呢我自己一個人顧我們家兩個小孩我就陰陰外外更何況這些來自翠家的小孩他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構但事實上就是如此"},{"start":13526.733,"end":13552.132,"text":"所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩他們要1比6的狀況下去照顧那我們看到孩子的困境我們回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在因為這些孩子需要被照顧可是如果符合勞基法我們要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班所以一個機構絕對不會只有一個或兩個"},{"start":13554.801,"end":13566.032,"text":"申報員不管是保育員或是申服員至少拼3到4個可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準裡面只補助1.47倍的人力而且每一個人只補19000那甚至呢這些補助還設下條件條件一機構要自籌18000二機構進駐率要高於50%"},{"start":13576.98,"end":13599.949,"text":"部長 次長好了 那我們請次長回答次長你對這個非常熟悉 好不好次長你聽懂我的困境了嗎我了解 完全了解那我跟委員報告 現在確實因為營運最佳的這一個小朋友提安置的這個部分一定要改善那我跟委員報告 您剛剛所說的整個 我們現在目前人力比我們現在目前1比6對不對我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4這是第一個等一下 什麼時候什麼時候"},{"start":13603.302,"end":13615.046,"text":"我很開心聽到這個我們現在正在修那個執法我跟委員報告其實之前我跟那個我們衛衛委員會那邊有去南投那邊是是是那個陳丑家園那邊我剛剛說過"},{"start":13619.207,"end":13620.348,"text":"現在我們會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準"},{"start":13641.11,"end":13658.963,"text":"分級分類我等一下跟你討論專業服務費這個裡面如果說是那個一般性個案的話兩萬塊但是呢 特殊需求我們現在要提款三萬八千八百九十倍這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎你第一個把然後他要出這個錢還是你們為服務費補助"},{"start":13665.024,"end":13679.673,"text":"對 安置費用是那個地方政府編列啦對啦 事情就是這樣 因為它是委員你意思是說可能我們現在中央這邊也要代理到什麼方法沒關係因為我知道財化法之後一定下去就是明年開始嘛財化法下去之後地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情"},{"start":13681.554,"end":13706.305,"text":"但是我覺得我們要強力的協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說這個美好的目標不過我認為補助人數補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件你剛剛規定他要自籌一萬八然後進駐率還要高於50%我覺得這個要調整啦為什麼進駐率因為我們希望孩子們是回到累加的狀態比較多然後離開機構越來越多嘛我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下"},{"start":13707.125,"end":13720.954,"text":"包委員那個簡單那個委員剛剛提到就是說50%的部分這個我覺得這個也不合理所以我們現在這部分會嚴厲把它刪除太好了另外第二點您剛剛所說的沒錯地方政府他是負責安置費用但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助這是中央中央我們會來支持"},{"start":13726.098,"end":13730.384,"text":"但是地方的它也必須要有一些成效我認同所以我們後續來討論細節我今天先把問題提出來但是我很開心先聽到1比6比1比4再來分級分類下一張就是我剛剛跟你說的"},{"start":13740.919,"end":13766.82,"text":"分級分類你們確實現在有做嗎你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理說實話這個分類很rough啦那它其實可能也不是用於現場而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子那甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4對不對可是說實話我們如果遇到從翠家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況其實1比4loading都還是太重對不對"},{"start":13768.201,"end":13792.726,"text":"你可以想像嘛而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子他發作的時候通常可能兩三個生保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩然後雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的但是因為為了照顧這個小孩其他小孩就被落在一邊這是現場很不得不的狀況也不是生保員的錯所以我這邊要強力的要求我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論甚至跟很多民間團體討論"},{"start":13793.846,"end":13819.769,"text":"一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案我所謂的報就是陳報這個數字上來陳報這個數字上來給地方政府給衛福部我們要如何去研議協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整但是地方政府有沒有這個意識我相信從衛福部開始很重要"},{"start":13820.209,"end":13832.214,"text":"因為衛福部訂定相關法規範讓地方政府去遵守我覺得是重要的我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看包委員完全同意這個方向確實我那時候去看有一些孩子說那是男子兒那甚至說那個年紀他那個都拔掉了那我看了你怎麼可能說一比四可能一比一可能"},{"start":13845.981,"end":13869.234,"text":"所以我完全同意這個洪湧我們會全力我們來把安置機構的教養環境我們來好好處理好那還是回到那一張啦CRC公約說我們要照顧這些這些都是國家的小孩他只是家庭暫時出了狀況有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題時間有限我尊重主席我們後續還有很多安置機構狀況一起討論謝謝主席"},{"start":13871.235,"end":13888.973,"text":"好謝謝陳培文委員謝謝部長好謝謝委員會在這邊做宣告我們大約12點40會休息到下午2點然後等一下的質詢會到張雅玲委員這個催省完畢之後就進行休息謝謝接下來請李燕秀委員來做選擇"},{"start":13897.155,"end":13899.242,"text":"感謝周偉,我是不是可以請邱部長"},{"start":13904.591,"end":13924.698,"text":"委員長部長好 部長 近兩年我們的兒孽事件其實平凡 非常的平凡這一位我們在法律面跟制度面我們沒有辦法把我們社安網建置的更完整所以我前一陣子 前幾天 上個星期我在司法法治委員會有提出來幾個問題點 就是說未來我們如何發揮事前的預防兒孽還有事中"},{"start":13933.041,"end":13951.689,"text":"我們如何及早的發現還有包括事後我們如何嚴懲不罰我覺得在這三項這三個層面上政府跨部會我們應該有更多具體的做法包括兒童權利公約也要求政府要保護兒少不受任何形式身心暴力的影響跟傷害我要請問部長"},{"start":13955.47,"end":13982.593,"text":"就是說對於這兩年我們常常在媒體上看到兒女的事件你對於目前跨部會整體制度你覺得兒少的保護你敢不敢打分數謝謝委員尤其是經費委員對兒少保護的一個關心那我想這幾年來的確跨部會都一直在合作努力在做這件事情部長那我請旁邊的委員你到底給兒少制度保護你現在打幾分"},{"start":13983.334,"end":13997.63,"text":"報告委員我們這個永遠不可能完美而且還有很多我們一定要來精進改進你不能每次都跟我說發生一個兒童事件你每一次都回答我同樣的問題我們不進則是退我們現在變成兒童的保護是一直在鬥退路所以我剛才提出來是前是終是後我們到底該做什麼"},{"start":14005.538,"end":14015.56,"text":"包括我們今天法案的草案的討論我們看到兒童保護的件數從110年起到113年每一年逐年增加包括在托育的場域每一年的數字也是在增加所以當父母當媒體社會大眾在討論這些問題的時候我們有權利的人我們在法制面應該做更完整的人我們長期在喊社安網要做得更好的人我們到底做了什麼所以我才說"},{"start":14034.225,"end":14034.788,"text":"我們這樣分數是不及格的"},{"start":14037.191,"end":14064.33,"text":"對於所有社會大眾來講我們是不進則退 我們是逗退盧所以在上個禮拜司法法治公聽會當中我提出五項建議包括我們應該要成立兒少的保護專責部會包括兒少保護的業務應該有專責的公務人員我很不喜歡尖人東尖人一個 西尖人一個這變成沒有一樣業務做得好我想部長應該同意我的說法"},{"start":14065.211,"end":14088.361,"text":"第三個就是說我們目前還沒有在專責單位之前我們的社安網到底怎麼樣補足會不會在還沒成立之前有漏洞啊我們照顧兒童社安網不應該有任何閒置的時候就是不應該有任何漏洞跟空間我想你一定同意我的說法部長我也聽到院長 卓院長承諾說未來要規劃成立兒少保護的專責單位我們到底有沒有時間表"},{"start":14093.681,"end":14114.075,"text":"有沒有 有討論過沒有 行政院部長有對話想 還是市長你要回應我報告委員 我想這個部分行政院是很重視所以一直有在看整合時間表是什麼時候 還是誰可以回應我部長我不要求你 因為下面應該是有專責人還是誰可以回應我 有沒有專責 有沒有時間表"},{"start":14117.198,"end":14136.438,"text":"專責單位很重要如果對於兒少的保護永遠是堅韌我覺得很多事情都沒有辦法做得很好雖然這些事情是重要的但是我們剛剛看到那個數字是越來越多兒少的兒孽的事件數開案數包括兒少的保護個案件數在托育的場所裡面數字都是增加的"},{"start":14137.694,"end":14146.626,"text":"我們現在還有兒童是越來越少我們重點是職日如何照顧得更好部長我不是在跟你吵架我是看這個數字我很心急所以時間有那個時間表因為牽涉到"},{"start":14155.305,"end":14180.421,"text":"主持的改造主持編制要調整所以我才問你說 你是要三年還是五年沒關係你都知道三年五年中間還沒成立之前這個空窗期我們怎麼辦這個是我要問你的問題啊我覺得應該最近就有具體的一個成果會呈現所以下個會期要送主持調整嗎還是說明年 還是後年"},{"start":14181.755,"end":14190.399,"text":"我們希望不要到明年後年以後啦下個會期就要送進來組織調整所以下個會期就要成立專責單位我們很積極在把所有的各 譬如說我們衛務部就有七八個單位都有負責兒童嘛那這總之中間怎麼樣但是我們不是過兒童你剛才調的也是過的長照我今天問題很多啦所以你今天回答我的就是下個會期你們就要做組織的編制的調整"},{"start":14211.325,"end":14231.252,"text":"我們現在已經在處理了已經在處理 下個會期要想辦法送進來我們會盡力啦你如果沒給下面的一個時間表要拖到明年可能我都還看不到咧所以你自己給你自己單位部會的時間要求是什麼你做事情是總是這樣嘛你做部長你總是說我明年要求你們送出來他才會去調整那個時間我們來克服一些困難來努力應該希望下個會期有"},{"start":14239.588,"end":14268.767,"text":"目標是下個會議部長謝謝你的回應我接下來問因為現在兒童兒少的保護民間的倡議的政策跟衛福部的回應有相當的落差包括我們要成立兒女專職的社工還有建制仿試員提升辨識的能力這三項都是重要的但是我們衛福部的回應是加爆法我們已經有成立專業能源還有包括仿試員你回應的對照是說我們已經有專責醫生"},{"start":14269.808,"end":14284.989,"text":"我們知道專責醫生他有專職醫生的專責幼兒的專責醫師的照護制度他有一定的功能在訪視員是對於中高的脆弱家庭他平常去看他可以看到一些問題到專責醫生是"},{"start":14287.812,"end":14293.557,"text":"她有到醫院去 她有到診所去 她才看到問題所以我們現在衛福部對於兒少保護包括民間倡議團體他們的要求我覺得我們是 我們沒有在對等的衛接上對話而且我們是雞同鴨講"},{"start":14308.35,"end":14316.535,"text":"那第三個包括提升辨識能力你們回答說我們已經規定相應的訓練課程沒錯我們現在有對應的相應課程我們現在提升兒女的辨識能力我們有社工的訓練計畫第一年就是要上完19個小時那在第一年受訓完之後我們每一年要再回來上課20個小時但是這個計畫8年過去了我們的兒女的"},{"start":14334.386,"end":14346.575,"text":"狀況漏接的事件還是頻傳所以我才提到說我們提升辨識能力這一項應該想辦法再精進提升這個是第三點民團倡議的這些問題我覺得我們應該對準聚焦我們才有辦法未來專責單位成立的時候真正解決我們的問題你提到說我們有專責醫生制度"},{"start":14357.543,"end":14373.519,"text":"他要的是我們見識更多的訪視員的去做一些管理對個案高風險群或中風險群有機會脆弱家庭我們有一些資訊在手上這跟專責醫生制度是不一樣的我想部長你應該聽得懂我的意思"},{"start":14374.92,"end":14395.781,"text":"所以我覺得這是重點啦我們對兒小保護我們都非常關心我們都希望可以有更多具體的做法不要漏接任何一個孩子所以我今天提出來這些建議我希望部長競速的還沒成立專責單位之前可不可以在兩個月之內回應我等於回應所有民間團體怎麼樣去處理這個問題好我最後30秒"},{"start":14398.581,"end":14410.735,"text":"部長之前你我都在當立法委員在同一個未還委員會的時候我們提出來額略事件我們要求就是說要把雲端的這些攝影及時的一些相關的記錄可以上傳"},{"start":14413.979,"end":14433.277,"text":"那現在我們在這次修法當中影像上傳我們終於入法這件事情我是給予肯定的但是我要提問一個問題就是說未來影像上傳的一些資料的儲存未來我們到底會採定時上傳方式還是即時串流的監控這兩個事情是不一樣的喔部長"},{"start":14434.338,"end":14456.764,"text":"上傳是我所有的幼兒診所 幼兒場域我所有的影片都上傳我們不一定會及時看到一些問題但是我如果有及時串流有專責人10個人20個人30個人在觀看我抽看抽看所有的幼兒場域這些他可能會在照顧的部分更謹慎小心或自己的內控"},{"start":14458.024,"end":14486.319,"text":"更完整所以我要請問部長您現在你們內部想做的做法到底是採定時上傳方式還是即時串流的監控方式來去做後續的處理好謝謝我想理事回答一下報告委員我們現在本部我們現在目前所採取的是定時是定時上傳的方式那我就要提醒你定時上傳還是有它的漏洞在就是發生問題的時候再調照片回來看調影片回來看是是是"},{"start":14486.679,"end":14509.308,"text":"這跟家長的期待還是有一點落差那這個部分怎麼樣去補足我希望你們去做思考我站在一個母親的立場我們希望每一個孩子值都照顧得好所以我提醒你們這件事情後續怎麼樣去補足我當然希望是串流但是怎麼去做我希望你們去思考一下 謝謝非常感謝李委員 謝謝謝謝李委員的詢問 謝謝部長接下來請黃婕委員來做詢問"},{"start":14522.298,"end":14525.119,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請邱部長委員好好 部長好因為這個推專法其實大家都非常期待那其實早上提案說明的時候我已經有強調我的重點了除了這個保母的祭典制大家比較有共識之外當然我希望真的審查的時候這個保母祭典制大家可以盡快的通過了"},{"start":14545.103,"end":14566.121,"text":"那除了保姆祭典制我也要講一下就是這個借殼上市甚至可以說他是借屍還魂的這種機構到底要怎麼處理我不知道早上我突然提完說明之後我們衛福部是不是已經心裡有底其實在此之前我也都跟衛福部有私下先做過了解就是這種到底要怎麼樣在法律中"},{"start":14567.081,"end":14581.278,"text":"補起這個漏洞這件事情真的非常重要那我還是再簡單說明一下這樣子的樣態他們違法樣態到底是什麼因為其實我五年前在高雄市就已經處理過了那當時這個陽性的負責人他就是自己"},{"start":14582.118,"end":14607.291,"text":"涉及虐因那當時這個機構當然立刻把他廢止了然後這個負責人也不可以再執業了可是呢過了五年他重啟爐灶藉殼上市之外他是直接請他的先生去申請擔任這個負責人然後我其實私下問過我們地方的社會局說欸這不就是當初那個太太已經是明顯有虐因甚至是你沒給他廢止了嗎怎麼這個時候又發照給他"},{"start":14610.453,"end":14620.405,"text":"然後他跟我說沒辦法與法無懼啊法律上沒有任何的依據可以阻止他去申請這個設立所以他們雖然知道說有風險但他們還是發照給他了也就是說五年之後這個托孕機構他又在原址喔"},{"start":14629.535,"end":14641.144,"text":"重新開業結果這個負責人他偷偷跟人家借名字在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒結果五年後又有一批家長出來爆料說哇他又虐嬰了"},{"start":14642.768,"end":14658.99,"text":"怎麼辦他就說他們還是會去法律處理啊處理什麼偽造文書因為他實質是借別人的名字在行托育之實嘛結果他變成只能用這種偽造文書的方式去處理這個實質在行虐因二度虐因的這個負責人"},{"start":14660.552,"end":14681.322,"text":"那這種該怎麼辦呢所以在我的版本裡面其實從事前防堵事中的監管到事後的懲罰我都有列在裡面當然這可能會有一點爭議爭議在於說你不能去傷害到無辜的人就例如說他先生沒有虐因啊是他太太虐因可是他先生開了這個機構為什麼不行"},{"start":14684.003,"end":14710.703,"text":"這就是我們要很細緻的處理說那明明知道他是有風險的可不可以事前審核的時候有一些讓他可以裁罰或者是說設立的標準以及你即便真的因為你不能影響人家的自由嘛他先生是沒有這樣子的前科的那你發照給他之後他開立了但他太太不能出現在這個園區啊他明明就是有虐嬰之時的人有前科的"},{"start":14711.303,"end":14729.729,"text":"那這種他應該就要讓我們地方社會局有機會去加強去監管所以以上這就是我在這一次修法裡面很細緻的想要把它放進去的條文那我在這邊就是請教部長的意見對於這樣子的樣態你們有沒有去了解過因為我發完之後"},{"start":14730.569,"end":14742.594,"text":"一堆家長來跟我說 欸其實不只高雄欸什麼台中也有 台南也有全台灣這種藉口上市的拖音機構但是過去有不良記錄的多的是那這種樣態大概怎麼辦"},{"start":14744.301,"end":14773.287,"text":"所以委員我想委員提出這些訴求真的是比較精緻化而且比較公平啦就是說不會說有些人沒有這樣子不能做但是絕對不能借和尚事或者是借屍還魂都做一樣,現在的人也要照顧我想這個我們要精細的來規範來把在法律上能夠做一點處理我想這樣才是法的一個用意"},{"start":14774.226,"end":14791.987,"text":"那是不是請比較有進行這個條文相關業務的人可以說明一下就是你們對於這樣樣態的了解的程度以及接下來如果我們接下來討論修法的這些文字的話是不是就是可以叫我的版本或是你們有什麼建議"},{"start":14793.368,"end":14822.646,"text":"跟委員報告其實在這樣的一個問題上面其實怎麼樣去精準的限制這樣的一方面精準的限制藉口上市但是同時同樣的困擾就是怎麼樣去避免傷及無辜那這邊怎麼樣去平衡其他中間最困難的一個點是實質去認定前後的例如說申請的經營者他中間有實質上的關聯那這個在行政上的時候這個是目前上我們碰到最大的一個需要突破的地方"},{"start":14823.166,"end":14844.696,"text":"那這個後面在討論的時候目前我們所查證到相關的法規裡面我們所知道好像只有在健保在做特約的時候有一些類似的規定但是這個同樣也面臨到這個規定定下去之後會不會有傷及無辜的問題這邊其實確實是有一個兩難的狀況那所以他需要一個比較細緻的討論"},{"start":14845.856,"end":14865.26,"text":"所以這個要拜託你們因為接下來就要進到實質審查了嘛這個托育專法大家是有時程壓力的那在此是不是可以直接拜託部長我們請同仁回去把這個細節的條文最好你們也提一個版本到時候跟我的一起對照來討論這樣好不好好的好的應該的好謝謝部長謝謝拜託喔好謝謝接下來請楊瓊英委員來做詢問"},{"start":14879.923,"end":14888.097,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14888.53,"end":14912.901,"text":"部長好 我們首先來討論醫院的治安問題因為我們看到輔仁大學週一爆出了院內醫師人員疑似用遠端的連線方式害入了醫院的資料庫導致了病患跟醫務人員有各自外洩的疑慮除了輔大這起事件之外 今年又已經有三件"},{"start":14914.101,"end":14942.919,"text":"也就是有三件遭骇客攻击的事件第一个马街医院2月19号发生了这个当机的事件医生没有办法打开病例影响到了门诊这个门诊急诊这个是太严肃的一个议题第二个张基的议题也是他是我们云章南唯一的一个医学中心但是在3月1号也侦测到了骇客攻击虽然是部分短暂的失灵但是还好"},{"start":14943.439,"end":14971.274,"text":"沒有資料外洩可是病人的權利怎麼樣呢那這個答案緊張第三個桃園的這個長盛醫院4月16號上個月官網公告異常了那原因也是脫離不了駭客的入侵傳出有8萬多名的患者各自有外洩的疑慮所以面對到我們醫療所醫療院所遭到駭客攻擊呢那我們衛福部你要怎麼樣來協助"},{"start":14972.935,"end":15000.54,"text":"跟監管本身認為一而再再而三這個對病患來講對醫院本身也都是不好請教部長好謝謝委員的關心這個分三點報告第一個就是說我們在資通安全管理法的確我們衛護部要來管理這個關鍵基礎的要怎麼管呢怎麼管呢問題一直出來你們現在怎麼做應對呢這個部分等一下我們請李處長再補充那第二個就是其實我們為了擴大"},{"start":15002.32,"end":15021.603,"text":"大家因為後來發現這個好像治安是前面性的所以我們在5月9號也找了全國各醫院治安負責人超過900個人來開會同時我們也給他一個指南應變指南那另外為了讓比較小的醫院他的量能不夠所以"},{"start":15022.103,"end":15030.137,"text":"我們也請那個廠商提供三個月的資安的免費服務來共同抵抗這個現在的危險期這個大概有74家醫院來申請不曉得理事長有沒有補充"},{"start":15035.518,"end":15052.877,"text":"就像剛剛部長講的第一個最重要我們就是強化訓練所以訓練的部分不管是大醫院小醫院我們已經完成了第一期所有的訓練那第二個就是我們告訴他應變指南不管是大中小醫院他現在都有拿到這本應變指南了第三個就是他們比較沒有資源來買這個比較先進的軟體"},{"start":15054.679,"end":15074.2,"text":"我們協調廠商在這個比較關鍵危險的三個月先提供三個月免費的一個服務所以有74家來申請那最後一個就是我們現在全國的醫院都給他納入一個叫做情資分享的網站所以只要任何一家醫院有相關的受到駭客攻擊的時候他們都可以在第一個時間得到相關情資的一個分享"},{"start":15074.36,"end":15100.241,"text":"你現在報告的當中也就是5月9號你們召集了900個看到這個嚴肅的議題來討論那麼也協力的廠商就是現在有74家來申請前三個月免費試用是不是如此那但是部長你剛才說的他就是有困難所以他會來申請這個免費的這個部分第三個最重要的議題也就是聯網"},{"start":15102.083,"end":15119.521,"text":"讓我們的醫療院所知道那有這個已經有哪一家被塑到這個駭客入侵的時候其他家都能夠謹慎應對之這一點是非常的重要所以你在這個三個月那也提出了方案"},{"start":15120.262,"end":15135.456,"text":"也知道這個問題的嚴肅性所以本席具體要求也就是針對這樣子的一個面向我們衛福部理當應該要挺身而出的來協助跟督管那這個方案到底怎麼樣呢你再順便資料給本席"},{"start":15137.177,"end":15152.445,"text":"接下來本席要請教針對今天的主題我們同一服務體系的管理與輔導機制本席也跟王玉明委員來提這個案子我們都知道孩子是國家未來的希望更是在少子化的當中是"},{"start":15153.965,"end":15172.591,"text":"這個也是一個日益嚴重那這樣的一個情況之下我們要怎麼樣積極協助家庭妥善照顧這些孩子我想有幾項跟部長來討論也就是新增的居家托育人員的禁止事項他在違規祭典跟建立退場機制"},{"start":15174.211,"end":15194.112,"text":"還有也是很重要的加強托育人員他的勞動權益保障來避免超時的工作時間能夠保障居家托育人員收入因為我們現在都知道人員的充足是這個案子"},{"start":15196.995,"end":15212.765,"text":"關鍵點非常重要的關鍵因素但是我們也知道現在人數也不足那麼低薪而且調薪慢那各縣市政府所這個薪資的待遇這個落差也非常的大所以因此我們非常嚴肅的去"},{"start":15215.847,"end":15229.343,"text":"這個憂心也就是這個專業的人力呢人才留不住那保姆的人力也嚴重老化那麼所以請教部長這一方面你要如何的來解決請教部長"},{"start":15230.967,"end":15246.32,"text":"好我想托議員民間團體這幾個訴求其實剛剛都已經討論我們就是非常積極的來研議來改善那至於說現在具體的做法可不可以容我們理事長報告一下"},{"start":15247.921,"end":15267.352,"text":"請說非常感謝楊前輝委員對這個問題的關心我想這個確實啦就是說現在孩子我們真的要給他們最好的照顧我剛剛在答詢的時候有說到就是說有兩個部分一個叫需求面一個供給面需求面的部分主要我們現在有那個各項對家庭的那個補助但是現在有人有說過一個重點最重要最重要供給面就是對我們這些多餘人員勞動條件薪資要提款"},{"start":15272.375,"end":15296.452,"text":"保障他嘛 因為我明明看到現在的保姆人口老化嘛 那這怎麼辦 怎麼接得上來好 報告委員 我現在 那個過去喔 也要台中啊 給委員也很照顧我們在那邊的一個相關的經驗就是說 其實最重要事實上就是說我們來嚴領一些相關的一些薪資上面 包括就是說他現在如果說有符合相關的資格的話 我們一年我們會有一萬八我們對這個保姆的那個"},{"start":15301.695,"end":15324.661,"text":"市長我想大家用心來把專業人才留住來把因為目前保姆願意做的年紀都有一點所以要怎麼樣能夠再接續上來這是目前所以本席特別說明人才的留住是我們這個政策最重要的關鍵因素所以我要求我們的部長你去盤點"},{"start":15327.221,"end":15352.603,"text":"因為你必須負起全國的這個責任因為你是中央政府各縣市、二線市的收入落差那麼大我們要怎麼樣去把因子找出來怎麼樣去協助這個是非常的重要那你要去盤點然後資料給本席那接下來最後一個議題我功課給您Continuity這一個部分連續七週上升"},{"start":15353.564,"end":15367.1,"text":"那你疾管署也說上週的門診人數哇 大家看了嚇一跳耶4萬人比前一週增加了113%你預估到6月底7月初疫情才要達到高峰耶"},{"start":15368.393,"end":15385.958,"text":"那這個嚴肅的議題變化那麼大感冒的也很多流感也盛行那請教你們準備好了沒有你的因應要怎麼辦你的快篩劑你的疫苗你的藥品你是否充足民眾要怎麼樣能夠防範請教"},{"start":15387.625,"end":15397.153,"text":"好 謝謝第一個就是在快篩這個部分我們會跟隨著疾管署的預計預計的可能的人數10號時會準備"},{"start":15400.106,"end":15412.87,"text":"充足的那個而且鋪路鋪好會準備充足會鋪路至於疫苗的話沒有問題疫苗我們還鼓勵大家10月1號以後沒有打第一劑的人通通都去打 目前是夠的通通都去打一定要盤點好 絕對夠那第二 那藥物的話我們還有48 46"},{"start":15418.592,"end":15431.225,"text":"46萬人次那過去經驗一波大概用了16萬18萬左右啦所以46萬這是足夠的那另外在醫療體系方面今天劉昭偉特別關心我們會一個完整的應變我們過去在COVID"},{"start":15434.508,"end":15436.249,"text":"這個必須因為他隨時在變訊息萬變雖然我們說我們目前大概是還蠻穩定但是一個變化那就擦槍走火囉我們絕對不會容許有他擦槍走火"},{"start":15450.56,"end":15477.697,"text":"非常好 所以本席請問你預估這一波的高風險會延到什麼時候會有多久的時間因為你們現在告訴我們的是六月底到七月初才要開始五月天專家才要開始來請問你們預估這一波的高風險會有多久時間應該說在高風大概有四週從六月八號開始一直到七月六號那一週"},{"start":15480.499,"end":15488.441,"text":"這個是最嚴重的?對,加封大概都有20萬左右20萬左右?好,謝謝你,加油好,謝謝好,謝謝安委、謝謝部長接下來請張雅琳委員來做詢問請部長跟保護司、市長部長、市長"},{"start":15511.604,"end":15537.694,"text":"我也好好那我想我今天針對於就是說媒體報導的部分想要來請教那個部長跟司長就是說上個禮拜上一個禮拜我們這個三小的車禍造成一個三死十二傷其實有很多小孩我想大家都非常清楚他就是國中小的小孩那其實大家都非常的痛苦那這個事件發生之後因為當下的其實是一個下課時間其實有很多小孩的同學完全的目擊事發的經過"},{"start":15539.375,"end":15565.254,"text":"可是呢 我想先詢問一下我們現在有沒有去掌握學校有沒有提供一些心理的支持系統去照顧這些可能是他的同學 可能是勿及這件事件的小孩還有這個包含當天我們可以看到這個導護老師在現場最後也是崩潰在路邊打哭我們有沒有提供相關的心理支持系統呢"},{"start":15567.874,"end":15584.585,"text":"報告一下一發生事情的時候當然第一個緊急醫療救治來最重要這三家醫院我們馬上去了解他們的整個照護量能那回報的都是已經有做最適當的一個醫療處理我們講的其實是目睹現場的小孩接下來第二個我們馬上請設公司"},{"start":15589.368,"end":15617.33,"text":"跟心理師去了解一下是不是我們這些家庭當然包括學校裡面有目睹的受傷害的家庭這個當然是最重要第二個就是看到目睹的一個心理這個部分我們都有請社工師跟心理師去協助新北市政府新北市政府已經有提供相關的心理支援"},{"start":15618.09,"end":15639.352,"text":"到學校裡了嗎這個可不可以說明再清楚一點社工是回答一下好謝謝委員的關心那事實上在上禮拜我們林政務次長也召開一個這個案子的專案會議就是本部行政院的相關部會包括教育部那還有新北市政府的教育局跟社會局我們有做過一些討論"},{"start":15640.293,"end":15668.981,"text":"那因為這個事件蠻多是這個那個國小的那個師生那所以社會局跟教學他們有做一些分工針對學生師生的部分是由那個學校的輔導老師跟社工師等等來做一個介入跟瞭解那如果不是學校的人員呢那就是由我們社會局的社工用一戶一社工一個方式來關懷他們的一個狀況跟提供後續的一個協助"},{"start":15669.121,"end":15682.703,"text":"我想問一下學校這個資源會協助到小孩到什麼樣子的狀況因為他可能不是一次就結束了所以我們會跟新北市他們關係會了解一下新北市這個資源會投入大概到什麼時候會監觀察小孩子的狀況"},{"start":15684.585,"end":15700.843,"text":"那跟委員報告因為這個部分是在教育局我想我們可以來瞭解但是我相信他們也有相關的一個經驗在學校的輔導資源的一個部分那可能有需要事後再跟委員來回報好謝謝那再下一個問題再下一個問題我想大家可能也都有看到這個新聞就是這個"},{"start":15707.503,"end":15723.98,"text":"講起來是蠻痛心的就是這個小孩子他被了很多的媒體圍堵然後去採訪他如何他的這個他經歷了這件事情他的心情是什麼樣子那這個小孩其實他在整個新聞的過程之中他其實已經幾乎崩潰了"},{"start":15726.226,"end":15755.365,"text":"他是用一種非常顫抖的聲音去描述了整個事發的經過因為他的同學就突然不見了所以他其實在過程中他也速度大哭所以其實如果你認真看完其實真的是非常非常的心疼然後我自己看了都覺得非常的痛苦那其實我也收到一些家長的澄清他們認為說媒體不應該在這個當下去訪問這個小孩第一個第二個他們不應該把這樣子的內容再放到網路上面去"},{"start":15756.446,"end":15784.489,"text":"因為這個小孩非常明確的就是已經崩潰可是又持續的去訪談他那這個事後我們到底有沒有人可以去接觸這個小孩是完全不知道的所以我想這件事情其實看起來就是我們為了追求新聞的利益已經凌駕了兒少最佳利益的這件事情所以我想問一下就是說雖然在我們的兒少法第69條裡面呢它不是在這個下面所列的這個規範可是如果我們看一下"},{"start":15785.55,"end":15810.901,"text":"下一個我們來看一下中華民國電視學會新聞委員會的自律公約他就有講到如果說這個是小朋友的一些新聞報導如果是傷者被害者及罹難者的家屬訪問應該要尊重當事人的意願及身心狀況以及如果說今天對於兒童的事件報導不得有行為兒童及少年的姓名這些我們都非常清楚"},{"start":15811.681,"end":15835.034,"text":"其中特別重要的是如果我們要採訪兒少當事人應先表明記者身份及取得兒少兒童兒少本人還有監護人之同意應在非強迫或違反兒童少年當事人的受訪意願之下才可以進行採訪報導我認為我們這一篇報導其實已經違反了這個自律公約所以我想作為"},{"start":15835.974,"end":15865.229,"text":"衛福部保釋兒少的主管機關是不是可以盡快的來跟NCC的討論避免這個小孩受到惡毒的傷害那是不是這邊可以承諾我們盡快的來跟NCC要求他啟動媒體的自律委員會或是倫理委員會來討論這樣子的採訪行為是否過當那因為我想衛福部就是一個保護我們兒少的主管機關這件事情是不是可以要求衛福部盡快的來完成呢"},{"start":15866.274,"end":15878.739,"text":"沒有問題 記憶保護兒童少年這個權益我想我們的確應該做積極的動作那我想最積極的第一件事情 這個影片可以先撤掉嗎這個新聞片段可以嗎"},{"start":15883.434,"end":15885.495,"text":"這大概要多久的時間呢"},{"start":15901.26,"end":15929.642,"text":"移除下架部分就是看如果他的IP在國內那速度是相較快的那如果是國外我們可能還需要一些作業時間好我想那應該是一個月以內我們都可以把包含我們跟NCC的討論對不對要不要啟動這個自律委員會或是倫理委員會這個部分應該也是一個月之內我們都可以來完成對不對謝謝部長那再來我快快的問一個問題就是有關於監視錄影器的一個推動的辦理的一個狀況就是說其實在112年的時候魏福比奇就有一些相關的說明就是說我們的這些監視錄影設備呢"},{"start":15931.243,"end":15958.149,"text":"應該要留存30日那可是我們自己也看了11年到12年我們的推卸中心發生的不當對待就有114件可是呢在109到112年裡面我們就發現呢裡面的這個監視設備因為人為操作不當或是損壞就有10件那例行稽查發現毀損然後經現起改善就有31件所以這就造成是說我們當時才會去推那個雲端儲存的一個規定可是呢現在我們可以看到說"},{"start":15959.77,"end":15975.178,"text":"好像在上面是說因為沒有法令的規定所以現在目前是有地方那雖然我們現在已經要準備立法放在兒托法裡面了嘛那我想問一下目前在地方現在我們的一個各縣市處理的狀況是什麼好 那個說市長"},{"start":15980.599,"end":16007.763,"text":"跟我們報告當然全面性的這樣子做雲端的影像的備份的動作我們現在列在兒童推服務法的草案裡面在立法以外目前已經有縣市已經開始地方自己在做推動的主要是針對在例如說公辦的或者公辦民營的部分地方縣市有在推動的部分我們大概也會透過計畫性來做一個個案的來做一個相關的補助我們會持續的來做推動"},{"start":16008.183,"end":16022.54,"text":"其實沒有多少縣市已經支持辦目前我們知道應該有六個六個 那我想這個進度好像稍微慢了點因為從有一段時間1112年我們就提供相關的補助了吧 對不對所以那這個部分我們大概什麼時候要統一的推行呢"},{"start":16024.18,"end":16052.282,"text":"這個部分在全面推行的部分確實我們有徵詢過相關的法律跟法律的專家的意見那認為這個部分確實是未來要做有法律上的有法源的要求鼓勵他們嘛鼓勵的部分我們一直有持續的在做好那因為我時間差不多那我們事後再約個時間好不好就是各個縣市到底現在到底卡在哪裡好不好謝謝好的謝謝好我們會休息到下午兩點繼續開會"},{"start":16061.281,"end":16061.421,"text":"隔壁"},{"start":16078.335,"end":16081.097,"text":"我會講我會理一下我認識的"},{"start":16105.336,"end":16105.596,"text":"歡迎光臨"},{"start":16137.735,"end":16138.496,"text":"你要去那邊要買菜嗎?"},{"start":16163.951,"end":16166.331,"text":"我心裡想說看誰贏不是我 我也不想去問"},{"start":16194.099,"end":16196.781,"text":"你不用過去,你不用過去那邊,可以先在這邊,在這邊等,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,"},{"start":16219.376,"end":16221.018,"text":"這張照片是在2012年10月1日拍攝的"},{"start":16244.998,"end":16245.218,"text":"漂亮"},{"start":16270.014,"end":16274.431,"text":"欸 你要過去用餐嗎應該是要移動啊 林業齊委員已經在那邊了欸"},{"start":19915.683,"end":19915.883,"text":"好,我們繼續開會"},{"start":19944.727,"end":19953.55,"text":"好,部長到了,謝謝我們繼續來做詢問羅民財委員不在鄭振誠委員不在何欣淳委員不在我們請吳立華委員來做詢問"},{"start":19975.481,"end":19978.163,"text":"主席好有請部長來請部長委員好部長好我們很高興就是院版也出來了很多的立委也一同的來關心響應關於兒童托育法從過去的辦法那現在呢我們終於要有一部兒童托育法那其中就是一定會有一個所謂的服務諮詢會"},{"start":20004.505,"end":20031.581,"text":"那我看到院版就是沒有關注到原住民相關的這些代表那我個人或者是有一些民間團體有注意到這個問題因為當我們在講所謂的托育方式的時候其實不同的族群特別是原住民族群他有別於一般的托育方式所以呢如果"},{"start":20032.341,"end":20055.313,"text":"部長您有機會去看原鄉有一個原住民地區的互助教保中心部落互助教保中心非常的特別跟一般的幼兒園其實辦理的方式非常的不一樣那也希望部長有機會我可以帶您去看一看所以這個部分我就是想要請教一下院長您的意見"},{"start":20056.554,"end":20075.951,"text":"如果說我們有這個托育服務諮詢會那諮詢會當中會有涉及到原住民相關的議題是不是應該邀請具備原住民兒童權益倡議的經驗或者從事原住民兒童托育服務團體的代表是不是應該要有"},{"start":20077.541,"end":20106.556,"text":"應該要考慮那希望到時候願板可以支持好不好那另外請教一下因為我們現在很關心的就是0到2歲的托育服務整部法裡面呢就是我們很高興特別是這一塊是很多很多的家長非常非常期待的特別是原住民族地區那麼他因為場地很不容易找到所以如果這部法通過之後"},{"start":20107.176,"end":20120.867,"text":"也很頭痛 到底要在哪個地方找到這樣的場地那我知道 衛福部你們有一個原住民兒童0到2歲托育服務事辦計畫實施期程113 5月1號到115年12月31請教一下 目前有幾間事辦"},{"start":20129.293,"end":20130.054,"text":"圓住民地區有21所"},{"start":20149.791,"end":20168.405,"text":"我拿到的數據是一所一個原住民兒童零到二歲托育服務事辦計畫那沒有關係我要講的是說為什麼就是這個事辦計畫出來照理說是我們關心了很久"},{"start":20169.145,"end":20195.614,"text":"大家引頸期盼但是推動的成效就是參與的監訴好像並不是那麼樂觀那到底原因在哪裡我覺得這個部分要去討論一下我們來瞭解對 包括經費是不是已經有下放麻煩部長也關心瞭解一下我們馬上去瞭解對 那我接續就是要問那請問一下部長你覺得如果部落"},{"start":20196.494,"end":20205.804,"text":"家長他有臨時托育的需求你覺得可以送到哪裡去送到哪裡去"},{"start":20209.549,"end":20233.17,"text":"部長 好 我就直接講沒有啦 沒有地方可以送現在就是看看隔壁鄰居有沒有人在家啦那部落協力站好像在屏東友誼所嘛 是啊沒關係 那個後面再來跟我報告好不好我現在要講的就是說部落如果有臨時托育的需求其實大概就是只能看看隔壁有沒有人在家啦"},{"start":20233.951,"end":20240.637,"text":"可是我們看一下都會地區我光舉台北新北你看羅列洋洋灑灑什麼都有什麼居家托育服務中心育兒友善"},{"start":20249.845,"end":20261.801,"text":"園啊或者是居家托育服務中心等等甚至是也有提供公立服務的親子館居家托育服務中心很多那如果我們來看一些縣市以屏東台東花蓮來看一下偏鄉"},{"start":20268.103,"end":20289.635,"text":"根據社家署提供的這個委辦的通訊錄屏東台東花蓮就各只有一個據點在大仁科技大學國立台東大學在台東縣好市日常教育基金會所以是真的很不足那現在我們看一下社家署的托育媒合平台"},{"start":20290.555,"end":20315.72,"text":"我們去搜尋也是一樣花蓮搜尋到一筆資料屏東呢搜尋到一筆資料都是托嬰中心只有一家來做所以如果我剛剛問部長那件事就是部落如果有臨時托育的需求到底要送到哪裡想一句實在話啦還是我剛剛講的部落互助教保中心"},{"start":20317.642,"end":20341.445,"text":"那這個部落互助教保中心他目前有在做2到6那如果說在這樣的狀況之下也沒有好的一個可以使用的一個地點或者是適合的這些托育人力那看起來互助教保中心他如果能夠承接0到2歲的臨時托育其實是好的所以想要請教部長"},{"start":20342.446,"end":20354.574,"text":"我的版本有有一些民間團體版本提供的他們也都支持請問部長您支不支持如果以部落來講互助教保中心能不能承接0到2歲的臨時托育現在其實有在做"},{"start":20360.768,"end":20372.103,"text":"那個其實我們也知道在那個委員的支持之下我們在屏東現在已經有一個委員會中心嘛現在就是說美元對那我們現在目前就是說我們是不是還是以現在目前的這個示範計畫為基礎我們趕快再來推廣好這樣好不好"},{"start":20375.748,"end":20384.534,"text":"因為這個確實會對於我們整個園鄉我想這個是我們的整個文化的敏感度我想這個確實應該要用這個方式好 謝謝那既然如此我們未來有兒童托育法我們的法制要完備目前園民會有一個足語保母那這個足語保母呢其實是為了讓我們的這些嬰幼兒從小能夠接觸足語的環境那它有分喔一個是"},{"start":20406.548,"end":20426.097,"text":"親屬的保姆他只要具備足語能力因為是自己的親屬另外一個一般保姆呢他還是需要有托育人員的專業訓練的這些證照那重點來了原住民如果要辦理這種托育他的問題不是只有空間找不到"},{"start":20426.917,"end":20437.227,"text":"更重要的是他的人才培育人才也找不到那我們去看一下社家屬提供的這個資訊專輯托育人員專業訓練課程如果我找台東0花蓮0屏東還有4班都是自費班那大仁科大有一班是平日的補助班大概就是這樣非常的缺乏啦"},{"start":20450.679,"end":20478.618,"text":"所以我們目前已經有很多的族語保母他很樂意投入但是他不見得可以來做這個參與這個托育因為他還沒有取得專業的證照可是他要去上課發現了也不容易找到可以上課訓練的地方所以我在這邊就是簡單跟部長衛福部訴求第一個就是希望支持兒童托育諮詢會議如果有涉及到原住民族議題的時候希望一定要有原住民的代表能夠把它寫進法條裡面"},{"start":20480.419,"end":20504.331,"text":"那第二個就是目前看起來互助教保中心是最適合承接0到20歲托育的那這個臨時托育的部分希望可以把它納入法條文字那第三個就是拜託可不可以多多的開設原住民托育人員專業訓練課程來因應未來法治化好不好 部長好 我們要慢慢來努力好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝主席謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":20509.161,"end":20526.917,"text":"那接下來請李昆城委員 李昆城委員 李昆城委員不在請林柱英委員 林柱英委員 林柱英委員不在請郭益勤委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席 有請部長來請部長委員好部長好"},{"start":20532.881,"end":20550.81,"text":"我想提出修法最主要的目的還是要讓家長們安心那許多孩子就是被送到托嬰中心或者是保母家其實爸爸媽媽心裡難免都會忐忑不安就我的孩子到底安不安全被照顧得好不好然後如果真的不小心發生了什麼樣的一個問題這個真相能不能夠被釐清那我們就來看兩個案件"},{"start":20555.532,"end":20584.95,"text":"那高雄男子呢一個托育中心他在2025年的也就是今年的這個4月出現了爆出了這個8名的嬰幼童他遭到不當的對待那事後呢其實家長也才知道該機構就曾經被通報過但是呢相關的記錄其實沒有被揭露啊所以呢就變成說類似的狀況呢也同樣的出現在北投在去年的1月當中雖然這個托育中心被評鑑是假等"},{"start":20585.47,"end":20602.826,"text":"但是呢他过往也有长期对孩子施暴而且隐瞒他不当的一个记录那这时候其实家长就会开始担心了就是如果这家的托婴中心他以前到底有没有出过事情或者是他曾经出过事情可是我居然是在"},{"start":20603.627,"end":20624.469,"text":"公開的一些資訊平台當中我查不到他過往的這樣子的一個狀況我怎麼能夠安心把小孩交到這裡呢那如果是發生了一段時間查不到或者是剛發生的事情其實家長也不知情那這個部分這個中間的資訊的漏接或資訊的一個gap我們怎麼樣去補足那第二個部分"},{"start":20625.512,"end":20653.561,"text":"就是關於這個托孕中心如果說他的負責人只要換一個名字他可能就可以再重新的開業那我們怎麼知道我們的孩子送過去的這個托孕中心有沒有曾經有過這樣子的一個歷史記錄這個部分我們怎麼樣來補足好 謝謝委員的關心那這個你提出來這個真的是很重要的事情那我們在這個立法的過程當中當然怎麼樣精準的來去來"},{"start":20655.953,"end":20671.262,"text":"也不要誣殺無辜啦但是也不要藉口喪事這個怎麼樣去精準的一個處理是我們在追求法條裡面的一個很重要的目標那現在有這樣子的一個平台可以提供給家長來做一個查詢嗎"},{"start":20674.384,"end":20699.845,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們有要求縣市政府所有有依照兒少法去開出行政裁罰的案件都一律要通報到我們現在社家署有一個CRC的資訊網會通報所有進來的案件裡面如果依照兒少法的規定他罰完是要公告被處分人的部分我們也都有統一的公告"},{"start":20700.565,"end":20726.221,"text":"統一的公告大概是什麼時候家長可能他們對這方面的資訊的宣導可能不足所以以往這個各縣市自己的裁罰他會在縣市政府自行來做公告所以家長有時候查的時候不見得也許查的地方不見得方便所以我們在去年的五月開始我們要地方政府所有的裁罰案件統一通報到我們的資訊網站"},{"start":20727.862,"end":20750.267,"text":"那依照這個法律的規定因為公佈姓名同樣也是一種裁罰的方式所以只要條文裡面有要公告姓名的部分我們也都統一公告在網站裡面那讓民眾可以來做一個全國性的一次性的解鎖我們現在所有的案件都有上去那在去年五月以前"},{"start":20751.067,"end":20769.39,"text":"各縣市曾經裁罰的案件我們也在要求各縣市政府把舊的案件一步一步的都把資料轉移到中央這邊來那我們希望能夠讓民眾能夠有一個一站式的檢索好那這個是這一部分喔那另外我想提到的就是很多在"},{"start":20770.19,"end":20785.547,"text":"所謂的監視器拍不到的地方或者是真的當孩子受害了之後家長想要去調所謂的監視器的記錄的時候通常都已經會來不及要不就是影片被格次化要不就是監視器其實放在死角"},{"start":20785.967,"end":20808.365,"text":"好像掛好看的所以為什麼我的這個版本是希望能夠從這個露營的保存的天數從30天拉到60天因為我們發現有很多的孩子如果他開始慢慢的會學習表達我們收到很多的家長的陳情他們是想擠牙膏式的一天說一點一天說一點等到家長真的發現問題的時候其實時間往往超過那30天了"},{"start":20812.408,"end":20838.781,"text":"就變成家長他想要去找真相的時候其實這個部分我們是沒有替他們找到這樣子的一個可以被保留然後可以被閱覽或者是可以去調查這些記錄的一個狀況那我想呢這個事件其實也是發生在這個台南一個虐嬰的一個案件那通常我們發現這些施虐的案件就像我剛剛講的要不就是監視器是拍到角落看不到的地方"},{"start":20839.181,"end":20857.554,"text":"那要不就是真的出了事之後我們知道畫面可能被格式化不見了或者是保留的天數已經正式消失了那這個部分我們怎麼樣來做防堵那是不是可以也支持我的版本就是我們從保留30天可以拉到60天這個部分能不能夠我想我們可以來討論到時候可以來討論"},{"start":20860.956,"end":20882.377,"text":"好那另外就是監視器如果壞掉的時候因為壞掉之後我們是不是希望他在24小時之內就要通報而不要拉長到48小時在24小時之內可能真的就要通報趕快先修好因為其實任何一分鐘都有可能是孩子正在冒冒著風險的對待這樣子的一個狀況這個理事有沒有什麼"},{"start":20888.979,"end":20909.406,"text":"這相關的部分我們會來仔細研議因為總召這個比較綜合性各個角度來看看他的怎麼樣我們還是一切以照顧小孩為重要怎麼樣讓他們雙贏"},{"start":20911.787,"end":20925.153,"text":"我們當然會希望這個托育的制度跟托育的政策托育的制度跟政策可以更加的進步啦因為讓孩子真的在平安安全的一個環境上長大其實是所有家長的一個心願好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":20929.025,"end":20951.772,"text":"好 謝謝郭委員郭委員再度提醒衛福部你們到底是要上傳雲端要定時上傳還是要即時串流還是你要有備份的官方的然後是要從30天延長到60天最主要還是叫做保全證據啦所以這個還請你們多多展智慧看怎麼處理接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":20953.873,"end":20977.24,"text":"吳佩奕委員,吳佩奕委員不在,請廖偉祥委員,廖偉祥委員,廖偉祥委員不在,林德武委員,林德武委員,林德武委員不在,張家俊委員,張家俊委員,張家俊委員不在,林岳勤委員有請你這個臉粗一點"},{"start":20979.96,"end":21002.388,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麻煩我們的部長來 請部長委員好部長 三年了 因為為什麼托育服務法在民間就已經討論到兩年多然後去年希望能夠端出來結果沒有所以今天就來談談這個托法是不是能補強零到兩歲托育安全制度"},{"start":21003.488,"end":21023.723,"text":"那的確我們為什麼在民間的時候期待因為本來兒照全法母法裡面對於居家托育只有五條在做管理含罰則那托育中心呢只有四條可是二到六歲切出去之後人家幼照法在民國一百年訂了幼照法事實上就是完備的去管理二到六歲反而托育中心只有四條"},{"start":21024.764,"end":21051.584,"text":"那可是0到2歲的孩子呢又比2到6歲更年幼更需要有一個很好的完善的肌肉管理甚至人家教保人員條例都還有53條所以我們很希望說這個托育服務專法能夠趕快的去做通過尤其事實上政府一直在催生的時候就把孩子一直拼命的期待也是希望家長雙薪家庭有一個服務在所以就是讓孩子能夠送出來"},{"start":21052.604,"end":21075.427,"text":"過去呢幾乎大概只有2比8我們的0到2所以2比88成事實上是在家裡2成送出來保母可是後來有托嬰中心之後呢現在呢也有個消長托嬰中心比例上越來越高那就是將近7比37成還是在家裡3成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大可是也因為這樣子"},{"start":21076.84,"end":21103.954,"text":"不當對待的問題越來越嚴重也越來越多讓如果不好好的納管的話就沒有辦法讓家長安心你要催生當然要有一些服務好的品質所以我們希望這個法能夠提升我們的法律慰藉以外還有強化不當對待的處理還有明定居家托育的專章還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格在那在這邊"},{"start":21106.414,"end":21124.451,"text":"就會看到我們的處理原則原來的位階非常的低就任由地方緊急安置所以想問部長到底有沒有掌握各縣市近南一般安置跟景安跟收出養的安置安置在保母家過去為什麼一直讓這樣子狀態持續存在"},{"start":21126.693,"end":21151.037,"text":"像新北市現在有護苗計畫有些縣市還是還是在做這種安置那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置這是過去某一個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子根本就是跟我們的原來沒有任何法規的安置的做法這樣子去做安置那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的去照顧孩子的保母的這樣的一個制度結果呢也因為這次凱凱案就凸顯了這個問題很嚴重可是重點是"},{"start":21154.578,"end":21174.045,"text":"一直以來都是這樣子那現在我想問知道哪些縣市還在做這種安置嗎好 謝謝委員的指導我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度也是這一次我們市部長我問的是說你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎"},{"start":21178.006,"end":21197.726,"text":"跟委員報告 目前確實是還有若干的縣市還是有用居家保姆的改善那我也想問 如果現在還有這樣做還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的像這次的兩個流線保姆都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人竟然讓他去做收出養的安置那現在我不知道一般安置跟景安"},{"start":21198.366,"end":21225.011,"text":"是不是還是現在還是做任讓他們去安置在一個沒有經驗你也從來沒有仿似輔導他的狀況的一個保姆然後繼續安置嗎我們確實如同委員所詢問那以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的一個原則那我們來讓地方政府在選任這個居家保姆來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則"},{"start":21225.791,"end":21249.39,"text":"那這個部分的話在這一次的事件發生之後那我們有先做過一次的調整那在這個原則裡面本來就有要求這個地方政府在選任這一類型的保姆的時候對於他在接小孩之前的訓練那或者他以往的經驗其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性那我先問一個比較簡單的新北市縣護苗計畫你有去監督他確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保姆嗎"},{"start":21252.495,"end":21257.171,"text":"後面的計畫因為是地方政府他自己對 可是他們就在做警案跟一般安置啊"},{"start":21259.683,"end":21283.563,"text":"所以當把它放在那個強度不是很強在被管理的保母的時候因為為什麼不需要強度很強因為孩子爸媽送到保母家晚上會接回去他會確定他孩子有沒有被不當對待所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們去盡速去做處理確定現在目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有"},{"start":21285.284,"end":21307.977,"text":"討論完畢然後能夠三讀通過之前請你們還是要密切注意這些孩子還在保母手上那這些孩子安全嗎這也是我們擔憂的那當然未來我們還是期待你們是不是針對於保母如果要去做安置你們既然不走寄養這一塊那要走在安置在保母家的話可不可以應該要去思考"},{"start":21308.537,"end":21318.449,"text":"怎麼去分級所以想問部長這邊這樣子是不是可以中央訂一套在這裡邊你的法裡邊我們去納入針對保護安置的專門辦法不要告訴我原則"},{"start":21323.274,"end":21351.68,"text":"那過去就是原則 結果有人要按照這個原則做嗎沒有按照這個原則做 雙北部按照這個原則做像凱凱案 而目前也沒按照這個原則做那所以我想問說進一步去做分級照顧才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益 未來也避免憾事發生所以請問一下部長支持這樣子的一個方向嗎我想訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧可是你們的版本沒有欸那個你是有辦法那個嗎"},{"start":21353.972,"end":21381.629,"text":"跟委員報告因為他這個大概未來都是在安置的過程裡面去選擇安置處所的一個安置的地點的一個選擇是不是在法制上面容我們我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法未來在安置處所選擇的時候那對於如果他要去選擇使用居家保姆的部分他的一些要求跟規範我們在兒少法的那個修正草案的研修的時候我們把這個議題拿進去"},{"start":21383.03,"end":21392.83,"text":"所以這有兩個點第一個是未來法希望你們能夠去做分級第二個事實上是在這法還沒修過之前請你們確保各縣市現在在做警案一般安置跟受訴人安置的"},{"start":21393.359,"end":21416.509,"text":"保姆選擇到底有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導我們去了解那在居托中心我覺得目前我由民間單位去做可是常常你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠他訪視的時候常常事實上是被標罵被趕出來甚至進不去保姆家去訪視"},{"start":21417.589,"end":21432.246,"text":"甚至大廈管理委員會裡邊本來就有些規定在所以呢訪視員去訪視的時候這我去年也質詢過訪視員根本進不到保姆家你知道他超收可是也沒辦法因為管理員就把你擋在門外等到保姆把孩子"},{"start":21433.187,"end":21462.407,"text":"送走到其他的鄰居家之後你才得以進去家裡那當然不會抓到超收也不會抓到他有沒有一些不當的作為甚至有沒有事實上是收拖非他收拖的小孩所以我不知道就是說既然他的管理權力不足的話你為什麼要他負擔這麼重的責任當一旦有事情的時候全部都認為是拘托中心的責任可是問題你們給了他什麼權力他沒辦法執行你們的公權力可是你們卻又要他去執行公權力然後再來"},{"start":21463.868,"end":21478.259,"text":"監督他 檢查他 輔導他 更是評鑑他問題是他對包模一點都沒辦法甚至地方政府有的在講扣分 像台北市說要輔導扣分 扣分公文去了去了給縣市政府"},{"start":21479.139,"end":21507.6,"text":"結果縣市政府遲遲不回文甚至打電話給縣市政府的時候縣市政府就說不會去處理那到底這些管理保姆的人他到底能做什麼縣市政府都我是被你們縣市政府授權要去管理保姆可是當我認為保姆有問題的時候呢我要求要去祭典也是配合你們縣市政府說要祭典結果我甚至他有違反規定的時候我把公文行為到你縣市政府結果你縣市政府"},{"start":21508.14,"end":21531.282,"text":"就是不裁罰那大家對於居托中心的權利甚至他對保姆還有什麼樣的管轄權利保姆怎麼會相信他呢因為你根本就是沒有power的人啊不是嗎所以想問說那這由來一直由來已久我去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目那似乎現在目前還是存在到"},{"start":21532.023,"end":21547.3,"text":"至今都還是有人跟反應說他們去問給縣市政府縣市政府不罰當然也說因為上面的高層不同意哇 那我們的所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰啊竟然不同意保姆被罰"},{"start":21548.201,"end":21562.731,"text":"是不是有民意代表介入我不知道 那就知道議員如果再介入這件事情真的就是沒道理可是問題是你要讓拘托中心怎麼去做呢所以我不知道說到底部長對這樣子的拘托中心你又不給他管理權力卻又要他負全部的責任這合理嗎"},{"start":21563.39,"end":21578.231,"text":"我想有責任既然要負責任就應該給他權利部長先問一個簡單的問題大廈管理條例裡面到底管委會到底我能不能進去保姆家因為保姆說等我下來開門"},{"start":21579.732,"end":21600.249,"text":"要等我下來接他 他還可以上去 一等就等半個小時那工作人員也真的不要工作了那到底我們可不可以去十分鐘如果他不下來 我就開單給他開單要報簽 地方政府都同意地方政府也確實會讓他這個開單成功否則的話 一切都事實上是做白虛公然後讓訪視輔導員非常的"},{"start":21602.791,"end":21610.056,"text":"無望啊做這個工作坦白講又不是薪水很高然後卻常常受到拒絕辱罵之後他怎麼做得下去呢"},{"start":21612.862,"end":21635.598,"text":"非常感謝葉勤委員對於這個問題的關心誠如委員所指出確實在過去拘托中心在這邊的定位我覺得事實上確實有點微弱我跟委員報告就是說我們在這一個新法裡面我們現在目前已經把它改成是委託了所以委託的話現在就是說它事實上在整個裁罰上它是有公權力的那現在裁罰的權還是要回到我們縣市政府那邊"},{"start":21636.519,"end":21658.121,"text":"你要做行政處分這基本上就公務員才有辦法但是現在就是說在整個他在過去做這個相關的訪視的時候我們現在目前也已經採取那個委託的這一個真的可以授予他們非常高的公權率嗎因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托在講說他們進入到保姆家他不讓他開那個房間就不讓他開房間"},{"start":21659.042,"end":21682.469,"text":"可是他們硬闖之後還要接受到他們的申訴可是真的也硬闖裡面好幾個孩子在裡面都流滿頭大汗所以就到底那個公權力怎麼讓我們的拘托人員可以執行否則的話認真的拘托人員坦白講搞不好被申訴的比例事實上是最高的這部分我們現在我知道就是說我們現在必須要武裝我們這些人員讓他們有這一個"},{"start":21686.071,"end":21708.291,"text":"有實際的這個power能夠來進行實際的執行我希望這次是不是可以在我們的法律裡面明文規定然後真的是要去幫否則民間團體來承接拘托中心的時候通常沒有權利可是當有問題的時候常常是以他們要負起更大的責任來講我覺得這不合理也不公平"},{"start":21709.011,"end":21724.224,"text":"我覺得這樣子你只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來接那另外一個就是我覺得這次把公共家園跟附住室的訂進去我覺得非常肯認不過我覺得政府也要去思考公共托育家園裡面的配套的條件裡面"},{"start":21725.004,"end":21747.865,"text":"未來如果相關對應的一些執法可能要去思考為什麼因為這個存在本來就很特別我們要小心的可是講的12個小孩4個大人裡面有一個是主管的話事實上這人數配比甚至沒有要求出工這些都會是以後在第一年之後都是問題為什麼因為有勞動權的問題就是他們要休假那這些孩子又會變成誰照顧"},{"start":21749.506,"end":21764.422,"text":"所以我們希望未來這些管理上我就在法律上你們可能要針對這一塊還有不當對待這一塊也請我們的政府部門可能要去想一想也就是希望真的"},{"start":21765.083,"end":21785.224,"text":"按照這個不當對待你們現在是用審議會我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法從調查委員到認定委員然後讓他清楚的被調查然後呢最後有一個認定的時候認定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼因為過去不當對待通常用兒少全法49條裡面的第一項"},{"start":21787.546,"end":21811.756,"text":"總共15款裡面通常不會被認可那到現在我覺得這次我覺得修正我的版本事實上也是會是相對事實上比較清楚 當初我們就希望按照幼照法這一塊所以我們希望未來你們的執法裡面應該也在搭配相關執法的時候也要考慮把它考慮進去所以我們希望政府能不能把自己的責任明定清楚還有違規的樣態都能夠"},{"start":21813.757,"end":21838.834,"text":"漸漸的建置起來 這個我覺得是保護師應該也值物旁貸的工作 為什麼因為多年以來49條就已經很久就現在不適用那如果要化為說以後不當對待樣態霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態應該也要很清楚所以在立法上我未來大家希望能夠補強這四點也就是建立專業分級也就保姆要做分級去做不同強度的"},{"start":21839.87,"end":21862.083,"text":"那要有認定辦法還有拘托中心要有些權力賦予還有我們托育服務機構也就是托育中心的那個設立跟管理要更明確還有0到2歲不當對待的處理以上再麻煩我覺得部長這邊可能在你們現在送出來版本如果不夠的話可能要再做補或者是甚至你們要去想謝謝謝謝指教好好想以上的謝謝"},{"start":21867.935,"end":21878.583,"text":"接下來請徐欣穎委員、徐欣穎委員、徐欣穎委員不在、蔡益渝委員、蔡益渝委員、蔡益渝委員不在、賴慧媛委員、賴慧媛委員、賴慧媛委員不在、請陳益委員來做選擇第一個謝主席,麻煩請石耀署長來,請江署長委員好"},{"start":21896.75,"end":21907.703,"text":"我想請教一下在向你們申請作為食品原料在所有資料都備妥的情況下外部審查通常需要多久的時間"},{"start":21909.195,"end":21931.093,"text":"跟委員進一步報告這個議題我們這個叫做非傳統食品的原料安全性的評估我們目前是委託單位那是陽明大學陽明交大的團隊協助我們那有兩個部分一個部分他是提到說我們一般的判定是否為非傳統性食品原料的問卷他說要花一個月"},{"start":21931.934,"end":21960.903,"text":"講到非傳統性食品原料安全性服務兩個月可是就我個人目前來的人兩個月今天剛好滿三個月跟大家報告一下所以我看到的情形是天黃地久竟然有超過三年那我覺得非常非常對不起委員以及各位國人針對一些新興非傳統性的食品需要怎麼樣子的去積極的去研議這件事情我會深緻的去做反省跟做改進"},{"start":21962.243,"end":21986.503,"text":"講有發現超過三年的應該就是我們辦公室送去的這個案例啦就是因為有一個就是說這當然這張圖片植物叫做這個植物叫馬甲子那當然對這是傳統民間單位來向你們申請作為食品原料但這個案件是從去年113年6月就送到你們那裡可是現在"},{"start":21987.344,"end":22003.351,"text":"就是說就誠如署長還署長說的就是說他目前就還在外部審查中那確實詢問你們業務單位那這個回覆就是說給本辦的回覆就是115年底才會"},{"start":22006.952,"end":22023.281,"text":"完成那所以我想署長上任短短三個月都覺得這樣的一個審查需要三年的時間確實是很扯啦那如果再加上公告的時間那可能真的是"},{"start":22024.201,"end":22039.558,"text":"天荒地久那我想這個總不希望說署長一上任整個效率都變差了所以這個部分我不知道署長您接下來未來有什麼樣的方式可以來改善這樣的情形"},{"start":22041.441,"end":22055.042,"text":"跟委員做進一步報告因為一直以來這一塊都是委託委外的給執行所謂的審查那審查的時間呢其實只有一個單位在審查嗎 對你剛剛說是"},{"start":22056.874,"end":22076.462,"text":"陽明交大的一個團隊來協助我們那已經有很多很多年的歷史了這件事情我看了之後因為我本身是獨立背景出身的對於相關的資訊跟訊息我想他是可以積極加速的我想請教一下這個單位他們過去幾年一年大概審多少件"},{"start":22078.148,"end":22097.527,"text":"我跟委員報告一下他剛才有講出兩個相次嘛一個叫做問卷的時候是不是第二個叫安全性評估兩個加起來量一年是寫15個所以KPI寫15件而已所以他們現在就是近一兩年大概他們收的案件是多少"},{"start":22098.532,"end":22123.601,"text":"所有的案件目前大概塞車大概還有10件還沒有完成所以歷年來大概他就是滿足大概15件KPI大概就是這樣子的程度而已所以那個署長你們會不會考慮就是還要再增加委外的團隊還是增加經費讓他們再多就是說能夠趕上你們送件的速度還是你要更換"},{"start":22124.841,"end":22139.414,"text":"委外的團隊你有什麼樣比較具體的做法去加速這些審查好跟委員做進一步說明我覺得我個人看啦我昨天去跟我的member講一件事情你先拿一份來我審我看我審多久回來告訴你"},{"start":22140.134,"end":22167.48,"text":"因為就我個人一個人審然後上班空檔的時間來看多久時間來決定說接下來是怎樣我其實一種承諾就是上半年我們現在收到的下半年一定要結案那預計是今年年底一定希望能夠結案假如沒有辦法達到結案我們在中間另外委託不同的團隊快速的把目前累積的案子能夠完成我想是努力的方向我想那個署長已經"},{"start":22168.36,"end":22180.915,"text":"有覺悟這件事情你們就是要加快他的這個審查的速度那另外就是說那我們這樣子的個案是否還要再等等個三四年"},{"start":22182.321,"end":22205.376,"text":"我剛才提到了我會讓他變成通案不會因為任何案的特殊我的想法是上半年接到的案下半年結束之前應該就要能夠完成這個的審查他也不是上半年他就是去年對有點久了超出我的想像正常的話應該是今年年初如果按照你的期審計的年初就要完成現在也年中了啊"},{"start":22206.496,"end":22225.87,"text":"對所以我個人對於這樣子的騎乘跟降進度其實有很多很多我對這個議案我自己都頗有維持好那可以這個已經塞車很久的也麻煩你們優先來趕快加速處理好嗎一定一定的好謝謝那請回座謝謝那接下來請那個部長跟口腔師"},{"start":22228.277,"end":22236.402,"text":"去年有預告檳榔健康防治法,在你們預告之前除了找相關專家學者討論之外,請問有沒有找業者來徵詢他們的意見?"},{"start":22248.17,"end":22269.9,"text":"當然有但是因為你們遇到的版本民間還是有很多的意見那本席在這裡要提出幾項就請你們再認真檢討一下第一項就是條文的第五條你們用所有販賣檳榔的業者都要做登記主要目的是為什麼那個請口香師師長"},{"start":22274.033,"end":22288.826,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個的話我們有收到很多人在反映說這個這樣的話會造成一些大家會覺得有點執行上的困難所以我們有收到大家的意見也召開很多會議我們會朝說讓民眾比較能夠接受的"},{"start":22295.451,"end":22323.065,"text":"你這樣講我也是聽不出什麼具體啦執行上的困難什麼困難這個我會處理我想點一下就是那個當然把所有業者做統一的管理的時候難免就是會讓人家聯想到就是說你們接下來就是要課稅不會課稅那再不然就可能是宣導對象尋找困難是嗎"},{"start":22325.06,"end":22335.421,"text":"還是你們想要想要就是找出所有的對象所以利用登記的方式就不會漏掉任何一家"},{"start":22337.831,"end":22363.416,"text":"跟委員報告 其實當初這個是我們最原始最原始的檔案嘛 最原始的版本後來經過大家不斷的討論陳儒我們剛剛我們部長所講我們會處理那我們會再循序漸進那我們會以輔導以輔導來代替 畢竟現在因為我沒記錯依照財政部所登記的一些稅籍資料全台灣大概有檳榔攤的大概有將近8000家"},{"start":22365.576,"end":22393.191,"text":"然後我們會優先從這樣慢慢去輔導因為至少我們已經有掌握了一些我想在這邊反映一個問題當然就是說對於這個宣導檳榔對人體的危害這個我是200%贊成那只是說就是說如果要講到就是說剛剛你說不會課稅那可能就還好一點因為畢竟就是說你們原先訂那個營收8萬以上的業者"},{"start":22394.051,"end":22419.054,"text":"要課稅 那個不是我們訂的 不是你們訂的那個是財稅單位訂的 好那因為八萬是這樣啦就是說他的營收是營收但是如果扣掉人力的成本然後再加上這個譬如說水電啦等等等這些可能到最後他實際上的這個月收其實不是很高所以這個部分或許這樣的政策既然"},{"start":22419.795,"end":22435.273,"text":"引起恐慌那你們如果有知道要再檢討那是很好的那就是說再好好討論討論那另外就是說第8條的規定兵糧業者不得僱用未成年員工我想要請教一下部長你們這個規定的目的又是什麼"},{"start":22436.854,"end":22459.787,"text":"不得僱用未成年員工因為這個應該是保護兒少那你為什麼不放在兒少法或者是保護兒少可是我們回頭去看另外一個在煙害防治法裡面並沒有限制未成年的這個就沒有限制他們說不能僱用未成年員工"},{"start":22463.143,"end":22484.878,"text":"這個賣檳榔就要保護兒少 賣菸就不用保護兒少你的邏輯是什麼這樣子好了 部長我在這裡大膽假設啦你們是不是這條規定就是不希望未成年的這個未成年的這些人是不要去從事這個檳榔稀釋的工作是這樣吧"},{"start":22488.023,"end":22509.043,"text":"有這樣的意思好那如果是這樣的意思就像我剛剛舉例因為你們要考慮到我只要提醒就是說在你把這個希望未成年者不要從事這個檳榔稀釋的工作你把它放在檳榔健康防治法的這邊規範是不是有點怪怪的"},{"start":22509.784,"end":22531.084,"text":"因為煙害防治法實施到現在已經快30年了,那有沒有要求超商說不得雇用未成年員工?也沒有嗎?超商可以雇用未成年員工嗎?其實勞動力的計算應該是15歲以上應該就可以去打工了吧?"},{"start":22532.857,"end":22542.665,"text":"這個你們可能不太熟我現在點出來你們要去想一想因為兒少是兒少工作權是工作權所以這個你們要分清楚"},{"start":22543.784,"end":22563.752,"text":"如果你要去規範你們如果很在乎這個檳榔西施那是不是要一定放在這個地方所以你們要好好想想因為有工作權的問題因為來我們看一下這個下一張圖這兩家呢他都有在登那個真人廣告的檳榔攤"},{"start":22564.972,"end":22586.142,"text":"他們不只賣檳榔也賣菸酒的批發所以這個刊登求職廣告的薪水待遇時薪大概就是一百九那月薪比基本公司要好一點點大概三萬出頭那如果按照第八條的規定以後未滿十八歲的這個年輕人就不可以在這些地方打工啊對不對"},{"start":22590.219,"end":22610.773,"text":"不是只有賣檳榔他煙酒一起賣但是單賣煙酒卻可以18歲以下去打工所以你們的邏輯是有問題的啦這樣會影響到年輕人部分年輕人的工作權我就在這邊提出所以今天好好想一想你們這樣規範的位置對不對好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":22618.905,"end":22644.462,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請2點47分現在請梁委員要時間有限自己要覺醒好 謝謝主席主席請一下長照司司長來請長照司司長 朱司長"},{"start":22651.678,"end":22653.059,"text":"市長我們接續上一次的執行"},{"start":22665.011,"end":22683.326,"text":"就是上一次市長的答詢內容呢,認為台灣不是福利國家,那我也覺得長照是家庭責任,對不對?"},{"start":22684.402,"end":22698.492,"text":"應該是說國家跟家庭一起來照顧老人一起照顧不是家庭責任我剛剛是說無法替代無法替代家人照顧貴蒙責任嘛"},{"start":22702.314,"end":22724.039,"text":"那其實我看賴總統曾經講過要把台灣打造成老人福利國那長壽3.0大概也是為了因應國家來支持家庭共同照護老人這樣子的一個責任因應而生的"},{"start":22728.243,"end":22752.478,"text":"譬如說直系血親之間互相負有撫養的義務家庭也有撫養的責任但是不代表家庭有能力提供足夠的照顧特別是現在少子化那麼嚴重啊政府未來如何提高替代性或者普通性的服務能量分擔家庭責任"},{"start":22754.361,"end":22780.455,"text":"目前確實我們在長照的這些相關的措施裡面其實也是在協助家人一起來照顧所以包括這個提供家人可以有一些喘息那家人需要工作的話我們也在佈建這些相關的居家服務那社區式的服務來讓家人可以放心可以去安心"},{"start":22781.495,"end":22807.823,"text":"發揮他的專業那讓照顧長輩的交給專業的人來做照顧這個政策方向都是跟委員這邊剛剛垂詢的是一致的那現在長照的政策呢就是造成了長照悲歌啊悲劇啊一再發生長照政策把照顧者視為工具人"},{"start":22808.973,"end":22829.783,"text":"那國家呢 有很多學者跟團體一直在呼籲國家應該保護照顧者那其實也應該要 就是受照顧者必須要得到國家的支持照顧者也需要"},{"start":22831.143,"end":22838.701,"text":"頻繁的長照杯葛不應該是台灣老化的宿命長照3.0的部分"},{"start":22843.698,"end":22863.188,"text":"假如以市長上一次答詢的時候回答需要照顧者的責任是家庭的話那顯然跟民團和學者的看法不大一樣現在你們長照3.0要怎麼亡羊補牢"},{"start":22864.78,"end":22874.907,"text":"跟委員再一次的澄清說明上一次的詢答我沒有說這個是家人的責任我一直強調是說我們的長照制度在我們的稅收規模下我們無法替代完全替代家人照顧概念上"},{"start":22883.672,"end":22904.287,"text":"意思就是說今天如果家因為我們在我們的民法本來就有父父撫養義務所以本來在我們的國情裡面其實家人扮演很重要的支持角色那政府就是很重要的除了被照顧者在長福法裡面也已經在立法院通過的長福法已經把"},{"start":22904.907,"end":22920.372,"text":"支持照顧者也入法所以對於長照制度的建構裡面除了被照顧者的服務我們也同步關注照顧者要有支持市長我講兩點第一點就是說所有的政策入法"},{"start":22921.548,"end":22944.58,"text":"並不能解決一切的問題這個是第一個觀念第二個就是你上一次怎麼詢答的呢因為今天時間太短我下一次回放給你看好了我問繼續問市長台灣因為稅收太低所以不是福利國家這個可能是可以探討的"},{"start":22946.121,"end":22972.263,"text":"那長照的責任在於家庭那政府也願意分擔一定的工作那要長照長照森林要加深加廣服務的網絡必須要有更多的支出稅收制的長照制度顯然沒有辦法因應一切"},{"start":22975.28,"end":22988.648,"text":"市長你對於把台灣的長照資金來源從現在的稅收制改成保險稅收雙軌制的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":22993.773,"end":23020.478,"text":"跟委員說明目前其實我們的長照基金去年年底是累積還有2039億那累積到今年的3月底現在是2200多億還有那麼多錢啊是是是我跟委員說明還有那麼多錢啊是是那所以目前沒有減薪就沒得做了沒有減薪就沒得做了我們的服務涵蓋率非常高我們服務涵蓋率已經達到去年年底就達到84%點多了"},{"start":23026.741,"end":23044.171,"text":"我拿一個行政院的報告跟市長做個探討就是說監察院目前的報告就是說目前的長照政策對於減輕重度失能家庭負擔的注意不大"},{"start":23045.946,"end":23064.697,"text":"監委指出112年各目標群體長照服務的涵蓋率顯然有落差近八成的長照幾支部服務使用的對象為輕中度失能者"},{"start":23066.523,"end":23086.112,"text":"這個恐怕就是重度的失能者用不到恐怕是基金還有那麼多錢的主要原因就最需要的反而用不到我們的制度然後基金還有三千億兩千多億"},{"start":23088.693,"end":23093.876,"text":"也跟有人說明事實上我們現在確實給支付是鼓勵因為我們國內的長輩"},{"start":23105.244,"end":23111.11,"text":"都一直嚮往就是留在自己最熟悉的社區中老那其實所以整個的給支付的政策也回應我們國人的一個嚮往跟需求所以對於居家跟社區的目前有納入給支付那"},{"start":23120.238,"end":23137.345,"text":"住宿型24小時照顧機構目前確實調查下來無法生活自理的老人被問到的時候大概只有三成六說願意到這24小時住宿機構這邊來接受中老那所以這樣的一個比例其實還有待提升所以我們一直"},{"start":23137.865,"end":23153.628,"text":"努力的也運用長照基金在針對現在全國有1800家的這些住宿機構能夠強化他的照顧品質那把品質這邊提升上來之後我們也希望老人在被問到的時候他的優先選擇可以到住宿型機構"},{"start":23154.349,"end":23176.909,"text":"如果这个时间到了或许在住宿型机构我们可以把它导入给支付那所以现阶段我们才用定额补助的方式来补助这些住民那现阶段是一年12万那赖总统也有提出要一年提高到18万那我们这个部分会整体配合整个的一个政府的政策来把它提高"},{"start":23177.702,"end":23193.994,"text":"市長我們有在112年我們有22萬左右的失能者是聘僱外籍看護工那這些人裡面只有4成"},{"start":23195.225,"end":23215.127,"text":"曾經使用過長照服務現況在使用長照服務其中超過三分之一只使用一項那這一項最多的就是喘息服務也就是說其實我們的長照制度並沒有辦法很普遍的覆蓋到"},{"start":23218.345,"end":23235.321,"text":"最需要的人假如說我們有辦法覆蓋到最需要使用到長照制度的這些人呢我想長照背歌不會一再的演唱這個是一個事實"},{"start":23239.465,"end":23262.118,"text":"怎麼讓使用者更方便可以使用到長照提供的需求怎麼去找到需求的人我覺得這個都是長照師必須要去做的事情不要等到悲劇發生了再說什麼都來不及"},{"start":23266.61,"end":23284.887,"text":"是 跟委員報告 聘外籍看護工這一塊其實本來大概使用都不到兩成所以我們經過這幾年一直努力那我們也把這樣的指標列為考核地方政府的一個長照的考核指標所以近期已經攀升到"},{"start":23286.968,"end":23311.378,"text":"外籍看護工提高到4成你可能也不用拿出來這邊講啦因為外籍看護工就是因為移工的勞動意識也強了啦所以早期沒有再讓人家休假現在休假當然會所以才會說喘息服務是最多被申請的項目交通接送也很多"},{"start":23317.262,"end":23340.362,"text":"今天還有預算解凍要處理所以我們先討論到這邊那有關廠照的問題我覺得是民進黨執政不可迴避的責任那也希望市長這邊不管在政策的擬定或是政策的落實都必須要加把勁謝謝市長 謝謝主席"},{"start":23344.573,"end":23345.715,"text":"好 本日會議"},{"start":23369.795,"end":23389.863,"text":"宣達全部結束 委員陳昭志 張家俊 林德虎 廖偉翔 圖全吉 李坤成所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報那先做以下決議第一 報告說明及詢討完畢第二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆 委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那接下來我們來處理討論事項預算凍結報告案計13案請一併宣讀"},{"start":23397.14,"end":23414.012,"text":"討論事項處理衛生福利部行為一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議分別減減送該部主管預算凍結報告案十三案一疾病管制署新增決議二三二預算凍結專案報告二食品藥物管理署新增決議"},{"start":23415.433,"end":23421.475,"text":"253 預算凍結專案報告3 國民健康署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告4 社會及家庭署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告5 國家中醫藥研究所預算凍結專案報告6 衛生福利部1及新增決議101衛生福利部預算凍結報告"},{"start":23438.04,"end":23444.545,"text":"7.衛生福利部23、24及新增決議136、137等7目一般行政預算凍結報告8.衛生福利部25至40及新增決議161第8目醫政業務預算凍結報告"},{"start":23453.672,"end":23455.714,"text":"9.衛生福利部41-48第9目心理及口腔健康業務預算凍結報告10.衛生福利部55-57及新增決議197-200第12目綜合規劃業務預算凍結報告"},{"start":23468.729,"end":23490.808,"text":"十一 中央健康保險署決議八至二十二及新增決議二九一第三目健保業務預算凍結報告十二 國民健康署第一目向下全人健康促進與成癮防治研究預算凍結一千萬元專案報告十三 國民健康署第一目向下運動科技應用與產業發展推動國民健康場域應用計劃預算凍結一百萬元專案報告宣讀完畢"},{"start":23498.427,"end":23515.993,"text":"好 我們現在要來進行討論這個13項的主案處理的時候先跟各位做一個報告剛剛在早上的這個報告事項裡面有委員針對第10項有提出互代決議那我現在請議事處來宣讀提案內容"},{"start":23522.981,"end":23550.069,"text":"附帶決議有鑒於中國食品利用網路不當販售造成國人食安疑慮請食藥署加強網路查查定期上網監管針對無輸入許可之食品立即要求平台業者下架並加強後市場管理於六個月內研擬修法增加相關法則並協同台灣網路資訊中心一同建立相關管制制度"},{"start":23550.569,"end":23569.011,"text":"提案委員林淑芬、王育敏、林月琴、劉建國宣讀完畢提案委員是林委員,早上應該有跟部有溝通過,OK嗎?好,那外務部沒有意見,就競表同意各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":23570.322,"end":23583.913,"text":"好沒有那我們就照案通過謝謝那現在進行討論事項13案之主案處理那第一案請就同意動之有意沒有意義沒有意義可是我要發言請說"},{"start":23596.138,"end":23609.783,"text":"就相關的傳染病的訊息跟防治真的一定要做好相關的宣傳因為現在就是前一陣子我也聽說日本也有百日渴"},{"start":23610.803,"end":23631.208,"text":"那現在COVID-19又在盛行怎麼在預防端就是還沒有大流行之前讓一般的民眾知道那應該做的措施、宣導這個都要做好好不好謝謝主席可以再多講一些沒關係"},{"start":23633.284,"end":23661.276,"text":"不要表你國會議員的職責都提醒...都聽你的喔不然你不講就先走好不好請林委員幫他安撫一下情緒好 第一案同意動之有意沒有 那我們就同意動之繼續第二案請各位同仁就同意動之有意沒有 那就無意同意動之 第三案"},{"start":23662.97,"end":23687.894,"text":"沒有異議,同意動之第四案那就同意動之第五案就同意動之第六案那就同意動之第七案同意動之第八案好,同意動之第九案同意動之第十案好,同意動之十一案"},{"start":23690.41,"end":23708.294,"text":"有異議沒有那就同意動之第12案有異議那就同意動之好第13案有異議沒有好那我們就同意動之謝謝那作以下局議均同意動之並提報院會請委員先不要離開好不好"},{"start":23721.882,"end":23745.819,"text":"委員會請楊委員回來好不好現在進行我們等一下進行討論事項的第一案跟第三案還是要委員在這個現場我也跟各位委員會做這個報告因為第二案第三案宣讀完之後可能已經五點半了應該是這樣明天一早我們委員會會繼續因為有很多委員在管理因為有"},{"start":23746.877,"end":23766.21,"text":"有這個連下的關係啦那當然我們明天還是會進行處理那處理當然不會急救張也會遵照各位行政機關的相關的意見那可以處理就處理那不行處理那當然就這就保留有的可能就可以保留出委員會來做協商都可以啦"},{"start":23767.003,"end":23795.608,"text":"就是不會強行說一定要怎麼樣因為還有很多這個不同的看法各個面向大家要討論到細究一點因為畢竟我們在處理法案我們不敢想說一定萬事流亡最起碼不能一臭一臭萬年所以省長我立誓要非常慎重所以我大致上跟各位宣告一下就是說今天等一下第一案第三案會做一個宣讀的時間可能將近要兩個多鐘頭會到五點半那明天一早可能就會進行法案的處理"},{"start":23796.038,"end":23813.52,"text":"那原則上跟各位報告了這專業的東西我們就必須要慎重然後來做相關法律的這樣的草案的審查可以就處理 有意見我們就保留或許也有"},{"start":23814.182,"end":23830.058,"text":"折席這個寫上的折席在審的這樣的機會好 以上就這樣宣告 謝謝那現在進行投入事項第二案及第三案請宣讀提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀在宣讀時請相關業務主責人員留在現場其餘人員可以先行離席"},{"start":23838.508,"end":23839.949,"text":"兒童托育服務法"},{"start":23858.616,"end":23885.412,"text":"行政院提案委員林月琴等16人委員何新存等16人委員王玉敏等24人委員邱若驊等16人委員黃潔等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員蔡易宇等17人委員李坤成等22人委員陳培宇等19人委員郭玉琴等21人委員陳素月等16人委員鄭天才等18人委員王美惠等19人委員林淑芬等25人委員王振旭等18人委員吳佩義等18人"},{"start":23887.679,"end":23889.059,"text":"提案條文對照表"},{"start":23917.665,"end":23933.435,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等22人委員鄭天才等18人提案第一條為保障兒童接受適齡性質保育照顧確保兒童托育服務品質建構完善托育服務體系以促進兒童身心健全發展"},{"start":23935.219,"end":23955.203,"text":"委員林月琴等16人提案第一條為保障兒童接受適當照顧確保兒童托育服務品質建構完善托育服務體系以促進其身心健全發展特制定本法兒童之權益依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法之規定辦理委員何新泉等16人委員陳素月等16人提案"},{"start":23955.743,"end":23976.642,"text":"第一項同委員林月琴等16人提案第二項如下幼兒之權益及教育依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法及幼兒教育及照顧法制規定辦理委員王玉敏等24人提案第一條為保障兒童接受適當照顧確保兒童托育服務品質建構完善托育服務體系以促進其身心健全發展特制定本法"},{"start":23977.082,"end":24002.455,"text":"委員邱若驊等16人提案第一項同委員林月琴等16人提案第二項如下兒童資權益及教育依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法制規定辦理委員黃潔等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員郭育琴等21人委員王正旭等18人提案第一條為保障兒童接受適當照顧確保兒童托育服務品質建構完善托育服務體系以促進兒童身心健全發展特制定本法"},{"start":24003.686,"end":24019.524,"text":"委員陳培宇等19人提案第一條為促進兒童身心健全發展及性別平等保障兒童接受適當照顧確保兒童托育服務品質提升公共托育服務量能支持人民兼顧育兒與工作並建構完善托育服務體系"},{"start":24021.482,"end":24049.779,"text":"以促進兒童身心健全發展特制定本法委員王美惠等19人提案第一項同委員黃婕等21人提案第二項同委員林月琴等16人提案委員林淑芬等25人提案第一條為促進兒童身心健全發展及性別平等保障兒童接受適齡適性之保育照顧確保兒童托育服務品質提升公共托育服務量能支持人民兼顧育兒與工作並建構完善托育服務體系特制定本法"},{"start":24050.359,"end":24066.193,"text":"委員吳佩儀等18人提案第一條為保障兒童接受適當之保護照顧使兒童之身心健康能獲得中全之保護合理監督托育服務支持行及相關人員之作業以確保品質並建構完善托育服務特制定本法"},{"start":24067.054,"end":24082.581,"text":"行政院委員林月琴等16人委員何新淳等16人委員邱若驊等16人委員黃潔等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員李坤澄等22人委員陳佩玉等19人委員郭玉琴等21人委員陳素月等16人委員鄭天才等18人"},{"start":24083.982,"end":24099.338,"text":"委員王美惠等19人委員林淑芬等25人委員王振旭等18人委員吳佩義等18人提案第二條本法所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本法所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關業務時各該機關應配合辦理"},{"start":24102.401,"end":24130.913,"text":"委員王玉明等24人提案第二條本發所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本發所定事項涉及目的事業主管機關業務時各該機關應配合辦理事項如下一衛生主管機關主管附幼衛生發展遲緩兒童早期醫療兒童身心健康醫療復健等相關事宜二教育主管機關主管學前教育及特殊教育等相關事宜三建設"},{"start":24131.693,"end":24156.435,"text":"公務消防主管機關主管托育機構及戶住室托育設置之建築物使用管理環境公共及消防安全檢查等相關事項四警政主管機關主管兒童人身安全維護等相關事宜五戶政主管機關主管兒童身份資料及戶籍等相關事宜六其他兒童托育措施及業務由相關目的事業主管機關依其全責辦理"},{"start":24161.348,"end":24186.817,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等22人委員鄭天才等18人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下1.兒童 指未滿12歲之人2.托育服務 指由居家托育人員或托育機構提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務3.居家托育 指未滿12歲兒童尤其三金等內親屬以外之人員於居家環境中提供有償之在宅或到宅托育服務"},{"start":24187.777,"end":24205.023,"text":"四 在宅托育 指居家托育人員受兒童支法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人委託在其服務登記處所提供托育服務五 到宅托育 指居家托育人員受兒童支法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人委託至兒童住所或其他指定居所提供托育服務"},{"start":24205.723,"end":24231.708,"text":"六 托育机构 指提供未满二岁儿童托育服务之公共托育家园托婴中心或互助式托育机构七 公共托育家园 指直辖市县市主管机关自行或委托非盈利性质法人 机构或团体办理提供十二人以下未满二岁儿童托育服务之机构八 托婴中心 指由政府机关或学校法人 团体 医院 商业或自然人设立提供未满二岁儿童托育服务之机构"},{"start":24232.648,"end":24248.974,"text":"9.互助式托育机构,指因应离岛、偏远地区、原住民族地区之特殊性或政府机关购、公营事业机构、公司、学校及非政府组织为其员工直系写清、非亲属之托育需求提供未满二岁儿童托育服务之机构10."},{"start":24248.974,"end":24255.456,"text":"居家托育人员,指取得指辖市县市主管机关合法居家托育服务证书之人员11."},{"start":24255.456,"end":24257.317,"text":"与居家托育人员共同居住之人"},{"start":24257.737,"end":24287.092,"text":"只与居家托育人员共同居住之配偶子系血清房系血清同居人或其他人员十二居家托育服务中心只受直辖市县市主管机关委托办理居家托育服务登记管理媒合辅导监督检查及调处事项之非盈利性执法人机构或团体十三负责人只托育机构依本法及其相关法规登记之名义人十四主管人员只与托育机构纵理业务之人员十五托育机构托育人员"},{"start":24287.552,"end":24307.665,"text":"只與托育機構提供保育照顧之人員十六托育專業人員只居家托育人員主管人員及機構托育人員十七工作人員只負責任主管人員托育機構托育人員之外與托育機構服務之人員十八托育相關人員只負責任托育專業人員及工作人員"},{"start":24314.229,"end":24339.817,"text":"第二條委員王衛銘等24人提案第二條本法所稱主管機關在中央為衛生部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本法所定事項涉及目的事業主管機關業務時各該機關應配合辦理事項如下一衛生主管機關主管婦幼衛生發展迟緩兒童早期醫療兒童身心健康醫療復健等相關事宜二教育主管機關主管學前教育局特殊教育等相關事宜"},{"start":24340.237,"end":24367.826,"text":"三建设公务消防主管机关主管托育机构及互助式托育设置之建筑物使用管理环境公共及消防安全检查等相关事项四警政主管机关主管儿童人身安全维护等相关事宜五护政主管机关主管儿童身份资料及户籍等相关事宜六其他儿童托育措施及业务由相关目的事业主管机关一级权责办理行政院委员李坤晨等22"},{"start":24369.957,"end":24372.901,"text":"等22人委員鄭天才等18人提案"},{"start":24375.011,"end":24399.449,"text":"第三條本法用詞定義如下兒童指未滿12歲之人托育二托育服務指由居家托育人員或托育機構提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務三居家托育指未滿12歲兒童尤其餐廳等內親屬以外之人員與居家環境中提供有償在宅或到宅托育服務四在宅托育指居家托育人員"},{"start":24400.51,"end":24406.533,"text":"受儿童执法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人委托在其服务登记处所提供托育服务5."},{"start":24406.533,"end":24418.059,"text":"倒载托育 指居家托育人员受儿童执法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人委托至儿童住所或其他指定居所提供托育服务6."},{"start":24418.059,"end":24423.302,"text":"托育机构 指提供未满2岁儿童托育服务之公共托育家园托婴中心"},{"start":24424.642,"end":24443.623,"text":"或互助式托育機構公共托育家園指直轄市縣市主管機關自行或委託非營利性子法人機構或團體辦理提供12人以下未滿2歲兒童托育服務托嬰中心指由政府機關構學校法人團體醫院商業或自然人設立提供未滿2歲兒童托育服務之機構"},{"start":24444.664,"end":24470.339,"text":"9.互助式托育机构,指因应离岛偏远地区援助民族地区之特殊性,或政府机关构拥公营事业机构、公司、学校及非政府组织为其员工实施写金。10.非亲属之托育需求,提供未满二岁儿童托育服务之机构,使居家托育人员只取得自辖市县市主管机关合法居家托育服务证书之人员。11.与居家托育人员共同居住之人,只与居家托育人员共同居住。"},{"start":24471.929,"end":24472.089,"text":"10.托育機構"},{"start":24502.549,"end":24517.435,"text":"機構托育人員指於托育機構提供保育照顧之人員十六托育專業人員指居家托育人員主管人員及托育人員十七工作人員指負責人主管人員機構托育人員外與托育機構服務之人員"},{"start":24518.335,"end":24544.369,"text":"18.托育相關人員指負責人托育專業人員及工作人員委員林月琴等16人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下兒童指餵滿12歲之人2.托育服務指以下列方式提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務1.寡護1.居家托育指兒童尤其三親等內親屬以外之人員於居家環境中提供收費之托育服務2.托育機構1.公共托育家園"},{"start":24544.989,"end":24562.424,"text":"指直轄市縣市主管機關委託非營利性質法人機構或團體辦理提供十二名以下未滿二歲兒童托育服務之機構二托嬰中心指提供未滿二歲兒童托育服務之機構三瓜湖山互助式托育指因應離島偏遠地區援助民族"},{"start":24563.144,"end":24582.246,"text":"地区之特殊性或政府机关购学校公司及非政府组织为其员工子女及孙子女托育需求提供未满二岁儿童之托育服务三居家托育人员只取得直辖市县市主管机关合法居家托育服务登记证书之人员四居家托育服务中心"},{"start":24582.706,"end":24607.591,"text":"指直轄市縣市主管機關委由非營利性質法人、機構或團體協助辦理居家托育服務登記、管理媒合輔導、監督檢查及爭議調解事項者五、負責人,指托育機構或互助式托育依本法及其相關法規登記之名義人七、違法人者,指其董事長或理事長六、托育人員,指於托育機構及互助式托育提供教育及保育之人員"},{"start":24608.692,"end":24623.131,"text":"7.主管人员,指于托育机构及互助式托育众里业务职人员。8.托育专业人员,指第二款及前二款人员。9.工作人员,指负责人托育专业人员以外,于托育机构及互助式托育服务职人员。"},{"start":24625.514,"end":24652.588,"text":"10.共同居住之人 只與居家托育人員共同居住之配偶 子系寫親 堂系寫親同居人或其他同才共居之人委員何欣淳等16人提案 第三條序文與委員林月晴等16人提案 同第一款與委員林月晴等16人提案 第二款同第二款與委員林月晴等16人提案 第三款同第四目如下 括弧四"},{"start":24654.218,"end":24678.567,"text":"其他經主管機關許可設立之托育服務第三款至第六款與委員林月琴等16人提案第四款至第七款同第七款及第八款如下七托育專業人員指第二款第五款及前款人員八其他工作人員指負責人托育專業人員與托育機構服務之人員第九款與委員林月琴等16人提案第十款同委員王玉敏等24人提案第三條續文"},{"start":24679.767,"end":24701.364,"text":"及第1款第1目同委員何新淳等16人提案第2目及第4目如下括弧2公共化居家托育指由直轄市縣市主管機關辦理聘請具托育專業資格之人員與居家環境中提供托育服務括弧3托育機構1公共托育家園指直轄市縣市主管機關委託非營利性質法人"},{"start":24701.784,"end":24723.396,"text":"机构或团体办理提供12名以下未满2岁儿童托育服务之机构二托婴中心指提供未满2岁儿童托育服务之机构瓜湖市互助市托育指社团法人人民团体因应离岛偏远地区援助民族地区之特殊性或政府机关购学校公司及非政府组织为其员工子女"},{"start":24724.176,"end":24751.197,"text":"及生子女之托育需求提供未滿二歲兒童之托育服務第二款及第三款同委員何欣淳等16人提案第四款至第八款如下四負責人 指托育機構或互助式托育機構依本法及其相關法規登記之名義人其違法人者 指董事長或理事長五托育人員 指於托育機構及互助式托育機構提供教育及保育之人員六主管人員 指於托育機構及互助式托育機構縱理業務之人員"},{"start":24753.259,"end":24769.881,"text":"7.托育专业人员,指第二款及前二款之人员8.工作人员,指负责人托育专业人员以外与托育机构及互助式托育服务之人员第九款,同委员何新存等16人提案,委员邱乐华等16人提案第3条,续文及第1款"},{"start":24771.062,"end":24791.653,"text":"第一幕至第三幕及第二款至第六款同委員何新淳等十六人提案第七款如下七托育專業人員及第二款及前二款人員第八款及第九款同委員王玉敏等二十四人提案委員黃婕等二十一人委員蔡奕宇等十七人委員郭玉琴等二十一人提案第三條第二款如下二托育服務"},{"start":24792.173,"end":24819.756,"text":"指由居家托育或托育机构提供儿童适龄适性之保育照顾服务第七款莫居如下提供未满二岁儿童十二人以下托育服务之机构第八款冒号后首居为指政府机关购第十一款首居为共同居住之人第十二款如下十二居家托育服务中心指授直辖市县市主管机关委托办理居家托育服务登记管理媒合辅导监督检查及调处事项之非盈利性职法人"},{"start":24821.017,"end":24839.729,"text":"機構或團體予以願辦同委員陳佩瑜等19人提案第三條第二款如下二 托育服務指由居家托育或托育機構提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務第七款默劇如下提供未滿二歲兒童12人以下托育服務之機構"},{"start":24840.629,"end":24869.151,"text":"第八款冒號後首據為指政府機關購第十款及第十一款如下使居家托育人員只取得指向市縣市主管機關核發居家托育服務登記證書之人員十一共同居住之人只與居家托育人員共同居住之配偶子系血親房系血親同居人或其他人員予以願辦同委員陳素月等十六人提案第三條第一款第三幕冒號後首據為指因應離外島予以委員何欣淳等十六人提案同"},{"start":24872.867,"end":24892.932,"text":"委員王美惠等十九人 委員王振旭等十八人提案 第十款與與願板同 與與委員陳培宇等十九人提案同 委員林淑彬等二十五人提案 第三條第一款至第七款及第十三款至第十八款同願板 第八款至第十二款同委員陳培宇等十九人提案委員吳佩玉等十八人提案 第二第三條"},{"start":24893.672,"end":24908.935,"text":"第一二四五七八十及第十二至第十八款同源版第三六九十一十九款如下三居家托育只由受服务儿童其三金等类亲属以外之人员于居家环境提供有偿之载载或倒载托育服务"},{"start":24909.635,"end":24931.793,"text":"6.托育机构,指对未满二岁之儿童提供托育服务之公共托育家园、托婴中心或互助式托育机构。9.互助式托育机构,指因应离岛偏远地区援助民族地区之特殊性而设立或政府机关或公营事业机构、公司、学校及非政府组织为其员工之托育需求,提供未满二岁儿童托育服务之机构。"},{"start":24933.014,"end":24950.496,"text":"11.与居家托育人员共同生活之人指无论其户籍登记或有无亲属关系实际上与居家托育人员共同生活者是有替代性照顾儿童于家中无法获得适当照顾时由政府提供之保护安置紧急安置或其他相关措施"},{"start":24954.201,"end":24982.967,"text":"行政院委員黃潔等21人委員蔡奕宇等17人委員李坤城等22人委員王振旭等18人提案第4條托育服務應以兒童之最佳利益為優先考量政府機關托育機構托育相關人員及家庭應推動及促進兒童托育服務之健全發展政府對於處於離島偏遠地區或因經濟身心文化與族群而有協助需求之兒童以下稱需要協助之兒童應優先提供適當托育服務之機會"},{"start":24985.868,"end":25011.226,"text":"委員林月琴等16人委員何新淳等16人委員陳素月等16人提案第4條第二項如下推動及促進兒童托育服務為政府社會家庭托育機構互助式托育及托育專業人員之責任第三項倒數第二句如下文化與族群而有協助需求及兒童與語言版同委員王玉敏等24人提案第4條第一項及第二項如下托育服務應以兒童為主體導"},{"start":25013.007,"end":25032.178,"text":"遵行兒童本位精神秉持性別族群文化平等及尊重家長之原則辦理並以兒童之最佳利益為優先考量推動及促進兒童托育服務為政府社會家庭托育機構互助式托育機構及托育專業人員共同之責任第三項倒數第二句如下政府對於離島"},{"start":25035.635,"end":25051.808,"text":"予以委員林月琴等16人提案同委員邱若驊等16人提案第4條第三項如下政府對於離島偏遠地區或因家庭經濟身心文化與族群而有協助需求之兒童應優先提供適當托育服務之機會予以委員何新淳等16人提案同"},{"start":25054.232,"end":25079.174,"text":"委員陳佩玉等19人委員林淑芬等25人提案第四條第一項如下托育服務應以兒童最佳利益為優先考量政府應提供兒童優質普及評價及進變性之托育服務並應以保障兒童最佳利益及支持人民兼顧育兒與工作為原則第三項默劇為應優先提供適當且充足之托育服務第四項如下中央主管機關"},{"start":25080.055,"end":25098.01,"text":"应定其办理托育资源及需求调查公开其统计及分析之结果并具以定定托育服务政策予以愿版同委员郭玉琴等21人提案第4条第三项倒数第二句如下文化与族群而有协助需求之儿童以下简称需要协助之儿童予以愿版同"},{"start":25100.461,"end":25120.972,"text":"委員曾天才等十八人提案第四條第一項及第二項與願反同第三項如下政府對於低收入戶中低收入戶特殊境遇家庭身心障礙原住民離島及偏遠地區之兒童應優先提供適當托育服務之機會委員王美惠等十九人提案第四條第一項及第二項與願反同"},{"start":25121.972,"end":25149.526,"text":"第三項如下政府對處於離島偏遠地區援助民族地區或因經濟身心文化與族群而有協助需求之兒童以下簡稱需要協助之兒童應優先提供適當托育服務之機會委員吳佩玉等十八人提案第四條第一項如下托育服務及其輔導協調及監督應以兒童之最佳利益為優先考量第三項莫具如下應優先提供適當托育服務之機會予以委員陳佩玉等十九人提案同"},{"start":25150.686,"end":25178.492,"text":"行政院委员李坤成等22人委员郑天才等18人委员吴佩义等18人提案第五条中央主管机关掌理下列事项一 纯国性托育服务政策法规与方案之规划订定宣导及研究二 对指辖市县市主管机关执行托育服务之辅导协调及监督三 中央托育服务经费之分配及补助四 托育服务辅导奖励补助及评鉴之规划五 托育服务相关专业训练及规划"},{"start":25178.932,"end":25197.589,"text":"六 全国性托育服务基本资料之收集调查统计及公布七 其他全国性托育服务之相关事项前项第六款全国性托育服务基本资料至少应包括全国居家托育服务托育机构之收费项目与数额评鉴结果不利主任及其他相关事项"},{"start":25199.451,"end":25224.595,"text":"委員林月琴等16人委員邱若驊等16人提案第5條第一項序文及第12358款如下中央主管機關掌理下列事項一全國性托育服務政策及法規之研擬二托育服務理念法規之宣導及推廣三對直轄市縣市政府執行托育服務之輔導協調及監督五托育服務業務之方案規劃研究輔導講助實驗及評鑑之規劃八協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立"},{"start":25229.116,"end":25256.785,"text":"第4679款同院版第3567款第二項如下前項第7款托育服務基本資料至少因包括全國居家托育服務公共托育家園托嬰中心及互助式托育之收退費項目評鑒結果不利處分及其他相關事項委員何新淳等16人提案第5條第一項續文及第1356款同院版第二款同委員林月琴等16人提案第478款及第二項"},{"start":25257.805,"end":25279.287,"text":"第二項第三項如下如下中央主管機關長理下列事項四托育服務業務之輔導講助及評鑑之規劃七居家托育人員托育人員及主管人員人力之規劃八其他全國性托育服務之相關事項前項第六款托育服務基本資料至少應包括全國居家托育服務公共托育家園托嬰中心"},{"start":25279.767,"end":25302.644,"text":"及互助市托育支收費項目與數額評鑑結果不利處分及其他相關事項第一項第七款居家托育人員托育人員及主管人員人力之規劃中央主管機關應每四年進行檢討委員王玉敏等二十四人提案第五條第一項續文及第一三五六款同院版第二款同委員林月琴等十六人提案第三款第八款同院版第七款"},{"start":25303.024,"end":25321.402,"text":"第四款第七款及第二項如下四托育服務之輔導講助及評鑑之規劃七居家托育人員托育人員及主管人員人力之規劃前項第六款托育服務基本資料應包括全國居家托育服務公共托育家園托育中心互助式托育及公共化居家托育服務之"},{"start":25322.243,"end":25343.291,"text":"收費項目與數額、退費項目與基準、評鑑結果、不利處分及其他相關事項委員黃婕等21人、委員蔡奕宇等17人、委員郭玉琴等21人、委員王振旭等18人提案第五條第一項第四款默劇為講注及評鑑之規劃第二項首劇為前項第六款托育服務基本資料與與院版同"},{"start":25345.27,"end":25371.915,"text":"委員陳培宇等十九人提案第五條第一項續文及第123567款同院版第二款同委員林月琴等十六人提案第四款如下四托育服務業務之輔導講座及評鑑之規劃第二項如下前項第二款全國性托育服務基本資料至少應包括全國居家托育服務托育機構之收退費項目與數額評鑑結果不立處分及其他相關事項委員陳素月等十六人提案第五條"},{"start":25372.535,"end":25395.635,"text":"第一項同委員黃婕等21人提案第二項同委員何新淳等16人提案委員王美惠等19人提案第五條第一項續文及第一款如下中央主管及官長裡下列事項一全國性托育服務政策法規方案及理念之規劃訂定宣導推廣及研究第二款至第七款同委員黃婕等21人提案"},{"start":25396.155,"end":25419.225,"text":"第二項如下前項第六款托育服務基本資料應包括但不限於全國居家托育服務公共托育家園托嬰中心及互助式托育支收退費項目與數額評鑑結果不立處分及其他相關事項委員林淑芬等二十五人提案第五條第一項續文及第一款如下中央主管機關長禮下列事項一全國性托育服務政策"},{"start":25419.745,"end":25438.493,"text":"法規與方案規劃訂定推廣宣導研究及實驗第2、3、5、6、7款同院版第4款如下4、托育服務業務之輔導獎勵及評鑑規劃第2項如下前項第6款全國性托育服務基本資料至少應包括全國居家托育服務托育機構服務之收費項目與數額評鑑結果不利處分及其他相關事項"},{"start":25444.013,"end":25461.483,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等22人委員鄭天才等18人提案第6條直轄市縣市主管機關長理下列事項一直轄市縣市托育服務政策與方案之規劃訂定宣導研究及執行二中央托育服務政策法規及方案之執行三托育服務相關專業訓練之執行"},{"start":25463.024,"end":25476.214,"text":"四直轄市縣市居家托育服務之登記管理媒合輔導監督及檢查五直轄市縣市托育機構之設立管理輔導監督檢查及評鑑六直轄市縣市托育服務基本資料之收集調查統計及公佈"},{"start":25478.475,"end":25499.484,"text":"其他紫霞市縣市托育服務之策劃及監督及督導事項前項第六款紫霞市縣市托育服務基本資料至少應包括主管之居家托育服務托育機構服務之收費項目與數額評鑑結果不利處分及其他相關事項委員林月琴等16人提案第六條第一項序文及第12367款同院版"},{"start":25499.884,"end":25528.797,"text":"第四五第五款及及第二項如下四直轄市縣市居家托育服務之登記管理輔導監督及檢查五直轄市縣市公共托育家園托嬰中心及戶住室托育之設立檢查輔導及評鑑前項第六款托育服務基本資料至少應包括直轄市縣市主管機關主管之居家托育服務公共托育家園托育托育中心及戶住室托育服務之收退費"},{"start":25529.797,"end":25551,"text":"項目與數額評鑑結果不利處分及其他相關事項委員何新淳等16人委員陳素月等16人提案第6條第一項序文及第12367款同院版第45款同委員林月琴等16人提案第二項倒數第三據如下托嬰中心及戶主室托育服務之收費項目與數額予以委員林月琴等16人提案同"},{"start":25551.5,"end":25569.386,"text":"委員王玉敏等24人提案第6條第1項續文及第1、2、3款同院版第4及第8款同委員林月琴等16人提案第5、6、7款及第2項如下5直轄市縣市公共托育家園托嬰中心戶主使托育及公共化居家托育服務之設立檢查輔導及評鑑"},{"start":25571.447,"end":25598.459,"text":"6 直轄市縣市托育基本資料之收集調查統計及公佈7 輕職教育之規劃及辦理前項第六款托育服務基本資料應包括直轄市縣市主管機關主管之居家托育服務公共托育家園托孕中心互助式托育及公共化居家托育服務之收費項目與數額退費項目與基準評鑑結果不利處分及其他相關事項委員邱若驊等16人提案第六條"},{"start":25599.099,"end":25626.696,"text":"第一項續文及第一至第四款同委員王玉敏等二十四人提案第六至第七款同委員何欣淳等十六人提案第二項同委員林月琴等十六人提案委員黃潔等二十一人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員郭玉琴等二十一人委員王玉琴王正旭等十八人提案第六條第二項首二據如下前項第六款托育服務基本資料至少應包括主管資居家托育服務與醫院版同"},{"start":25629.963,"end":25653.486,"text":"委員陳培宇等19人提案第6條第一項同院版第二項同委員何新淳等16人提案委員王美惠等19人提案第6條第一項同院版第二項如下前項第6款托育服務基本資料應包括並不限於主管之居家托育服務托育機構服務之收費項目與數額評鑑結果不利處分及其他相關事項委員林淑芬等25人提案第6條"},{"start":25654.227,"end":25668.721,"text":"第1項第4款同委員林月琴等16人提案予與院本同委員吳佩奕等18人提案第6條第1項第7款如下7直轄市縣市臨時托育服務之規劃執行輔導監督及檢查予與院本同"},{"start":25672.711,"end":25701.082,"text":"委員林淑芬等25人提案第7條中央主管機關為整合規劃協調審議諮詢或宣導托育服務開發居家托育人力資源訂定居家托育收退費項目與基準訂定機構托育之收退費項目及其他與托育服務相關事項應召開托育審議會前項審議會其成員應包括社政主管機關代表衛生主管機關代表"},{"start":25701.522,"end":25724.716,"text":"劳动主管机关代表、相关学者专家、居家托育服务团体代表、居家托育人员团体代表、托育人员团体代表、托育机构团体代表、儿童福利团体代表、家长团体代表、妇女团体代表及劳工权益促进团体代表前项学者专家及民间团体代表合计不得少于委员总数二分之一任意性别委员人数不得少于委员总数三分之一"},{"start":25725.436,"end":25741.311,"text":"負責人不得以非托育機構團體代表之身份擔任第二項之代表第二項團體代表身份有異動者主管機關應重新聘任行政院委員李昆成等22人提案第7條各級主管機關為整合規劃協調及諮詢托育服務應召開托育服務諮詢會"},{"start":25744.033,"end":25757.518,"text":"前項諮詢會其成員因包括主管機關代表衛生主管機關代表勞動主管機關代表相關學者專家居家托育服務團體代表托育機構團體代表兒童福利團體代表家長團體代表婦女團體代表及勞工團體代表"},{"start":25760.319,"end":25777.021,"text":"前向学者专家及民间团体代表合计不得少于成员总数二分之一任意性别委员人数不得少于成员总数三分之一负责人不得以非托育机构团体代表之身份担任第二项之成员第二项团体代表之身份有异动者主管及管应重新聘任"},{"start":25777.802,"end":25789.849,"text":"委員林月清等十六任提案第七條中央主管機關應邀集目的事業主管機關代表托育與兒童福利學者專家身心障礙團體代表居家托育服務團體代表托育機構團體代表兒童福利團體代表家長團體代表婦女團體代表"},{"start":25794.131,"end":25816.195,"text":"勞工團體代表組成諮詢會負責協調研究諮詢托育服務收退費額人員薪資及其他相關事項直轄市縣市主管機關應以首長為召集人邀集目的事業主管機關代表托育與兒童福利學者專家身心障礙團體代表居家托育服務團體代表托育機構團體代表兒童福利團體代表家長團體代表婦女團體代表勞工團體代表組成諮詢會負責協調研究審議"},{"start":25823.436,"end":25850.542,"text":"咨询托育服务收退费项目与金额人员薪资及其他相关事项前二项相关学者专家民间相关机构团体代表不得少于二分之一任意性别成员应占成员总数三分之一以上负责人不得以非托育机构团体代表之身份担任第一项制代表团体代表身份有异动者主管机关应重新聘任前二项委员之回避准用行政程序法之规定办理"},{"start":25851.022,"end":25873.742,"text":"委員何欣淳等16人委員陳素月等16人提案第7條直轄市縣市主管機關應以首長為召集人邀集目的事業主管機關目的事業主管機關代表相關學者或專家居家托育人員代表托育機構代表托育服務團體代表兒童福利團體代表家長團體代表婦女團體代表勞工團體代表組成諮詢會負責協調研究審議諮詢托育服務"},{"start":25876.824,"end":25894.711,"text":"收退费项目与金额人员薪资及其他相关事项前项相关学者专家民间相关机构团体代表不得少于二分之一任意性别不得少于百分之四十负责人不得以非托育团体代表之身份担任第一项制代表团体代表身份有异动者主管机关应重新聘任"},{"start":25895.191,"end":25918.243,"text":"第一项委员之回避依行政程序法之规定办理委员王玉敏等24人提案第7条中央主管机关邀集目的事业主管机关代表托育与儿童福利学者专家居家托育服务团体代表托育机构团体代表儿童福利团体代表家长团体代表妇女团体代表劳工团体代表身心障碍团体代表组成咨询会负责协调研究"},{"start":25919.443,"end":25927.008,"text":"諮詢托育服務及其他相關事項直轄市縣市主管機關應以首長為召集人邀集目的事業主管機關代表托育與兒童福利學者"},{"start":25928.177,"end":25956.995,"text":"或专家居家托育人员代表托育机构代表托育服务团体代表儿童福利团体代表家长团体代表妇女团体代表老公团体代表身心障碍团体代表成立咨询会负责协调研究审议咨询托育服务收费项目与金额人员薪资及其他相关事项第二项咨询会涉及原住民相关议题时应邀请具原住民儿童权益倡议经验或从事原住民儿童托育服务团体代表"},{"start":25957.475,"end":25985.575,"text":"第一项及第二项相关学者专家团体代表不得少于二分之一任意性别总数应战成员总数三分之一以上其回避之规定准用行政程序法负责人不得以非托育机构团体代表之身份担任第一项及第二项之代表团体代表身份有异动者主管机关应重新聘任委员邱乐华等16人提案第七条中央主管机关应邀集目的事业主管机关代表托育与儿童福利学者专家身心障碍团体代表居家托育"},{"start":25986.235,"end":26006.574,"text":"服務團體代表托育機構團體代表兒童福利團體代表家長團體代表婦女團體代表勞工團體代表組成諮詢會負責協調研究諮詢托育服務收退費額人員薪資及其他相關事項此下事先是主管機關應以首長為召集人邀集目的事業主管機關代表"},{"start":26008.103,"end":26015.249,"text":"托育兒童福利學者專家 身經障礙團體代表居家托育服務團體代表托育機構團體代表 兒童福利團體代表家長團體代表 婦女團體代表勞工團體代表組成諮詢會負責協調研究審議諮詢托育服務收退費項目與金額人員薪資及其他相關事項前二項相關學者專家民間相關機構團體代表不得少於二分之一任意性別應占"},{"start":26033.789,"end":26060.927,"text":"成員總數三分之一以上負責人不得以非托育機構團體代表之身份擔任第一項之代表團體代表身份有異動者主管機關應重新聘任第二項委員之迴避准用行政程序法之規定辦理委員黃潔等二十一人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員郭玉琴等二十一人委員王美惠等十九人委員王振旭等十八人提案第七條第一項莫具如下應召開托育諮詢會第二項第二具如下其成員應包括"},{"start":26064.289,"end":26092.832,"text":"第四項後段如下句號團體代表身份有異動者主管機關應重新聘任予以願滿同委員陳培宇等19人提案第七條第一項同委員黃婕等21人提案第二項文字托育機構團體代表前面增列居家托育人員代表托育人員團體代表其餘委員黃婕等21人提案第二項同第三項及第四項同願版"},{"start":26095.734,"end":26107.404,"text":"委員鄭天才等18人提案第7條第一至第三項同委員黃婕等21人提案第4項同院版委員林淑芬等25人提案第8條直轄市縣市主管機關為整合規劃協調及諮詢托育服務應召開托育諮詢會前項諮詢會其成員應包括"},{"start":26113.749,"end":26126.16,"text":"社政主管機關代表衛生主管機關代表勞動主管機關代表相關學者專家居家托育服務團體代表居家托育人員代表托育機構團體代表兒童福利團體代表家長團體代表婦女團體代表及勞工權益促進團體代表"},{"start":26129.463,"end":26156.44,"text":"前項學者專家及民間團體代表合計不得少於委員總數二分之一任意性別委員人數不得少於委員總數三分之一負責人不得以非托育機構團體代表之身份擔任第二項之代表第二項團體代表身份有異動者主管機關應重新聘任委員無配役等18人提案第七條第一三四項同院版第二項莫具為性別團體代表及勞工代表予以委員黃婕等21人提案同"},{"start":26162.938,"end":26185.114,"text":"委員陳培鈺等19人委員林淑芬等25人提案第8條托育服務之實施應與家庭及社區密切配合以達成下列目標一滿足兒童生理需求的照顧二建構兒童合宜安全的成長環境三建立兒童與照顧者正向依附關係四營造兒童平等民主尊重差異的學習環境五豐富兒童"},{"start":26186.335,"end":26186.375,"text":"第八條"},{"start":26204.151,"end":26220.905,"text":"托育服务应以尊重儿童发展为前提提供适龄适性之保育照顾其服务内容如下一提供清洁卫生安全及适宜儿童发展之环境二提供儿童充分之营养保健生活照顾与学习游戏活动及社会发展相关服务"},{"start":26221.986,"end":26224.669,"text":"3.记录儿童生活与成长及转介4."},{"start":26224.669,"end":26228.934,"text":"提供育儿咨询及家庭支持相关资讯5."},{"start":26228.934,"end":26240.048,"text":"其他有利于儿童发展之相关服务前项托育服务内容有关卫生安全营养生活照顾与学习之实施原则方式及其他相关事项之准则由中央主管机关定制"},{"start":26240.689,"end":26268.056,"text":"委員林月琴等16人提案第8條序文及第1及第5款同院版第二款至第4款如下二提供兒童充分之營養衛生保健生活照顧與學習遊戲活動及社會發展相關服務三記錄兒童生活與成長及轉介服務四提供育兒諮詢及支持家庭相關資訊委員何心存等16人提案第9條序文第1245款同委員林月琴等16人提案第二款如下"},{"start":26268.576,"end":26288.181,"text":"提供儿童充分之营养、卫生、保健、生活、照顾与学习、游戏、活动及社会发展相关服务委员王月明等24人提案第8条续文如下托育服务应以尊重儿童为前提提供符合适灵适性之保育照顾其服务内容如下第1至第5款同委员林月琴等16人提案"},{"start":26288.681,"end":26308.926,"text":"委员邱若华等16人提案第8条续文如下托育服务应以儿童为主体秉持性别族群文化个体发展情况平等并重以尊重儿童发展及家长原则为前提提供符合适龄适性之保育照顾其服务内容如下第一至第五款同委员林月琴等16人提案"},{"start":26309.606,"end":26332.224,"text":"委員黃潔等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員郭玉琴等21人委員王美惠等19人委員王正旭等18人提案第8條序文及第3、4款如下托育服務應以尊重兒童發展為前提提供符合適齡適性之保育照顧其服務內容如下3、記錄兒童生活與成長及轉介服務4、提供育兒諮詢及支持家庭相關資訊予以願版同"},{"start":26335.427,"end":26361.943,"text":"委員陳培鈺等十九人提案第九條序文同委員何欣淳等十六人提案第一至第五款同院版第二項如下前項托育服務內容之實施原則方式及其他相關事項之準則由中央主管機關定之委員陳素月等十六人提案第九條第三款如下三記錄兒童生活與成長及轉接服務與委員何欣淳等十六人提案同委員林淑芬等二十五人提案第十條序文及第一"},{"start":26362.463,"end":26386.522,"text":"第1、2款同院版 第3款至第5款同委員林月琴等16人提案 第二項如下 前項托育服務內容之實施準則由中央主管機關定之 委員吳佩儀等18人提案第8條 續文及第1、2、3、6款及第二項同院版第4、5款如下 4提供餘額諮詢及家庭支持相關資訊 5辨識兒童是否有受虐待不當對待之跡象並協助通報"},{"start":26389.028,"end":26410.043,"text":"行政院委員李坤臣等22人委員曾天才等18人提案第9條政府對接受托育服務之兒童得視其家庭經濟條件與補助其補助對象條件額度及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之兒童資訪訂代理人或實際照顧兒童之人得與金融機構開立專戶並在名金融機構名稱地址帳號及戶名報金直轄市縣市主管機關核准後專攻存入前項補助費用"},{"start":26415.868,"end":26430.704,"text":"依前項規定勤領補助之權利及專戶內之存款不得作為扣押讓予抵銷擔保供擔保或強制執行之標的委員核心存等十六人提案第八條政府對接受托育服務之二通得市及家庭經濟"},{"start":26431.465,"end":26450.585,"text":"条件补助费用其补助对象补助条件补助额度及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之儿童之父母监护人或实际照顾儿童之人得于金融机构开立专户并在名金融金融机构名称地址账号及户名报直辖市县市主管机关核准后专攻存入前项补助费用"},{"start":26450.965,"end":26470.76,"text":"依前項規定勤領補助之權利及專戶內之存款不得作為扣押讓予抵銷供單保或強制執行之標的委員黃婕等21人委員蔡奕宇等17人委員郭玉琴等21人提案第9條第二項倒數第三句為報職瑕事予與院辦同委員陳培玉等19人提案第10條同委員黃婕等21人提案第9條"},{"start":26474.282,"end":26490.939,"text":"委員陳思悅等16人提案第8條政府對接受托育服務制兒童得市級家庭經濟條件補助費用其補助對象補助條件補助額度及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定制兒童之父母監護人或實際照顧兒童之人得與金融機構開立專戶並在名金融機構名稱地址帳號及戶名報紙匣式縣市主管機關核准後專攻存入前項補助費用"},{"start":26497.685,"end":26525.916,"text":"依前項規定請領補助之權利及專戶內置存款不得作為扣押讓與抵銷供單保或強制執行之標的委員王美惠等19人提案第9條政府對接受托育服務之兒童的涉及家庭經濟條件與補助其補助對象條件額度及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人得與金融機構開立專戶並在名金融機構名稱地址帳號及戶名報紙查釋縣市主管機關核准後專"},{"start":26527.537,"end":26542.599,"text":"專攻存入前項補助費用依前項規定請您補助之權利及專戶內置存款不得作為扣押讓與抵銷公單保或強制執行之標的委員王振旭等18人提案同委員黃婕等21人提案"},{"start":26543.4,"end":26560.931,"text":"委員林淑芬等二十五人提案第十一條政府對接受托育服務至兒童的士級家庭經濟條件與補助其補助對象條件額度及其他相關事項是辦法由中央主管機關定之兒童是法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人本與金融機構開立專戶並在名金融機構名稱地址帳號及戶名報經直轄市縣市主管機關合作後專攻存入前項補助費用"},{"start":26568.015,"end":26592.472,"text":"依前項規定請您補助之權利及專戶內置存款不得作為扣押讓予抵銷公單保或強制執行之標的委員吳佩義等18人提案第9條政府對接受托育服務至兒童的市及家庭經濟條件予以補助其補助對象條件額度及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之兒童資訪定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人得於金融機構開立專戶並在名金融機構名稱地址帳號及戶名報經執行事先是主管機關核准後專攻存入前項補助費用"},{"start":26597.375,"end":26625.893,"text":"依前項規定清零補助之權利及專戶內之存款不得作為扣押讓予禮銷供擔保或強制執行之標的行政院委員黃婉婕等21人委員蔡奕宇等17人委員李坤臣等22人委員郭玉琴等21人委員鄭天才等18人委員王美惠等19人委員王振聚等18人委員林淑芬等25人委員吳佩義等18人提案第10條托育服務辦理績效著住者直轄市縣市主管機關得予以獎勵"},{"start":26626.934,"end":26650.009,"text":"委員林月琴等16人提案第9條托育服務辦理績效著住者主管機關應予以獎勵其獎勵事項對象種類方式之自治法規由直轄市縣市主管機關定之委員何新淳等16人提案第10條托育服務辦理績效著住者主管機關應予以獎勵委員王玉敏等24人提案第42條托育服務辦理績效著住者主管機關應予以獎勵"},{"start":26652.271,"end":26674.972,"text":"離島偏遠援助民族地區辦理定點臨時托育服務者適用前項之規定委員邱樂華等16人提案第9條托育服務辦理績效著住者主管機關應予以獎勵其獎勵事項對象種類方式之自治法規由指向事先是主管機關定之委員陳培宇等19人提案第11條托育服務辦理績效著住者指向事先是主管機關得予以獎勵其獎勵事項"},{"start":26677.134,"end":26702.867,"text":"對象總類方式之辦法由指甲師先是主管機關定之委員陳素月等16人提案第10條托育服務辦理績效著住者主管機關應予獎勵委員陳培玉等19人委員林淑芬等25人提案第12條兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應履行下列義務一一托育服務契約規定繳費二參加托育機構因其兒童特殊需要所舉辦之個案研討會或相關活動"},{"start":26704.127,"end":26726.193,"text":"3.參加居家托育服務中心或托育機構所舉辦之親子活動4.告知兒童特殊身心健康狀況必要時並提供相關健康狀況資料並與居家托育人員或托育機構共同協力改善兒童之身心健康各級主管機關對有錢向第四款兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應主動提供資源協助之"},{"start":26726.933,"end":26745.394,"text":"委員王玉敏等24人提案第9條直轄市縣市衛生主管機關應辦理幼兒健康檢查托育機構及互助士托育機構應與協助並依檢查結果施予健康指導或轉介治療托育機構及互助士托育機構應建立幼兒健康管理制度將幼兒健康檢查"},{"start":26746.095,"end":26765.621,"text":"疾病检查结果转介治疗及预防接种等资料再入儿童健康资料档并妥善管理及保存前项预防接种资料父母或监护人应与幼儿入托后一个月内提供父母或监护人为提供前项资料者托育机构互助式托育机构应通知父母或监护人提供"},{"start":26766.221,"end":26784.987,"text":"父母或監护人位于接货通知后一个月内提供者托育机构或主持托育机构应通知卫生主管机关托育机构或主持托育机构之负责人托育专业人员或工作人员对幼儿制资料应予以保密但经父母或监护人同意或依其他法律规定应与提供者不在此限"},{"start":26786.604,"end":26814.278,"text":"委員王玉敏等二十四人提案第十條直轄市縣市主管機關與兒童滿二歲前三個月應提供家長轉嫌至教保服務機構之協助前向轉嫌協助辦法由中央主管機關會同教育主管機關定之委員王玉敏等二十四人提案第十一條直轄市縣市主管機關對其主管之托育服務應優先招收離島偏遠地區或經濟身心文化與族群之需要協助兒童"},{"start":26815.118,"end":26842.475,"text":"並提供適切之協助或補助前向協助或補助之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員王玉敏等24人提案第12條托育專業人員之培育資格權益管理申訴及爭議處理等辦法由中央主管機關定之為促進離島偏遠地區托育服務發展各級主管機關得定期辦理該地區托育服務人員培訓課程委員王玉敏等24人提案第13條直轄市縣市主管機關對於辦理互助式托育及公共化"},{"start":26843.095,"end":26869.503,"text":"居家托育服务者应提供健康检查与意外责任保险等补助经费前项补助对象基准及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之行政院委员黄杰等21人委员蔡义渝等17人委员李坤晨等22人委员陈培玉等19人委员郭玉行等21人委员郑天才等18人委员王美惠等19人委员王振旭等18人委员李淑芬等25人委员吴佩义等18人"},{"start":26871.024,"end":26882.502,"text":"委員林月琴等16人委員何新淳等16人委員王玉敏等24人委員邱若雅等16人委員陳素月等16人第二章居家托育"},{"start":26885.037,"end":26911.911,"text":"委員臨書分等二十五人提案第十四條直轄市縣市主管機關為辦理居家托育人員之登記管理媒合督督呃輔導監督及檢查因自行或委託居家托育服務中心辦理下的事項一居家托育人員之招募儲備支持交流在職訓練輔導監督管理及檢查二受理居家市托育服務登記證書申請變更及換發三受理居家托育人員"},{"start":26912.811,"end":26933.676,"text":"收託異動之通報4 托育服務媒合轉介協助簽訂托育契約5 處理第66條第一項之托育爭議6 提供家長社區育兒諮詢及托育服務宣導7 其他配合中央及直轄市縣市政府交辦或委託事項前項執行業務處理原則等相關辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":26934.276,"end":26950.607,"text":"委員林淑芬等25人提案第15條指向市縣市主管機關應自行或委由專業機構團體協助對居家托育服務中心進行監督檢查輔導及評鑑其評鑑報告及結果應公布於資訊網站居家托育服務中心對前項之"},{"start":26951.808,"end":26964.315,"text":"監督檢查輔導評鑑不得規避妨礙或拒絕並應提供必要之協助第二項監督檢查輔導評鑑副評及其他相關應遵循事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":26966.929,"end":26989.76,"text":"行政院委員李坤晨等22人委員鄭天才等18人提案第11條成年人具備下列資格之一者應填具申請書便檢據相關文件資料向直轄市縣市主管機關辦理登記與取得居家托育服務證書後使得提供居家托育服務一取得保姆或托育人員技術試證二高級中等以上學校幼兒保育"},{"start":26990.2,"end":27019.257,"text":"幼儿教育家政护理相关学程科系所毕业直辖市县市主管机关得自行或委托居家托育服务中心办理居家托育人员之登记管理媒合辅导监督或检查居家托育人员对于直辖市县市主管机关之监督及检查不得规避妨碍或拒绝检查时不得借故藏匿儿童第一项居家托育人员之登记收托人数辅导管理废纸登记及其他应遵行事项之办法"},{"start":27019.577,"end":27047.05,"text":"由中央主管机关定制委员林月琴等16人提案第10条居家托育人员应相执下是县市主管机关办理登记并取得居家托育服务登记证书使得提供托育服务居家托育人员因为成年并具备下列资格之一一取得保姆或托育人员技术试证二高级中等以上学校幼儿保育幼儿教育家政护理相关学程科系所毕业"},{"start":27047.89,"end":27067.123,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關得自行或委由居家托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記、管理、輔導、監督或檢查事項居家托育人員對於前項之管理、輔導應與配合居家托育人員對於直轄市縣市主管機關之監督及檢查不得規避、妨礙、拒絕及檢查時藏匿兒童"},{"start":27078.21,"end":27093.576,"text":"廢止登記收退費規定及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員和新淳等16人提案第11條居家托育人員應向直轄市縣市主管機關辦理登記並取得居家托育服務登記證書使得提供托育服務"},{"start":27094.236,"end":27109.748,"text":"居家托育人員為成年並具備下列資格之一一取得保姆或托育人員技術師證二高級中等影像學校幼兒保育幼兒教育家政護理相關學程科系所畢業之下事先是主管機關得志行或委由居家"},{"start":27110.468,"end":27137.606,"text":"托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記管理輔導監督或檢查事項居家托育人員對於前項之管理輔導應與配合居家托育人員對於直轄市縣市主管機關之監督及檢查不得規避妨礙拒絕及檢查時藏匿兒童立項居家托育人員之收托人數登記輔導管理撤銷與廢止登記收退費規定及其他應遵及事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員王玉敏等24人提案第14條"},{"start":27138.487,"end":27162.657,"text":"居家托育人员应向直辖市县市主管机关办理登记并取得居家托育服务登记证书口使得提供托育服务居家托育人员应为成年并且具备下列资格之一一取得保姆人员或托育人员技术证技士证二高级中等影像学校幼儿保育幼儿教育家政护理相关学程科系所毕业直辖市县市主管机关应自行或委托居家"},{"start":27163.197,"end":27190.682,"text":"托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記管理輔導監督及檢查事項居家托育人員對於前項之管理輔導應與配合居家托育人員對於直轄市縣市主管機關之監督及檢查不得規避妨礙拒絕或檢查時藏匿兒童第一項居家托育人員之收托人數登記輔導管理撤銷與廢止登記收退費規定及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":27191.562,"end":27219.05,"text":"委員邱若驊等16人提案與委員林月琴等16人提案同委員荒街等21人提案第11條成年人具備下列資格之一者應填具申請書並檢據相關文件資料相值假釋縣市主管機關辦理登記取得居家托育服務證書後使得提供服務一取得保姆或托育人員技術試證二高級中等以上學校幼兒保育幼兒教育家政護理相關學程科系所畢業"},{"start":27219.87,"end":27235.435,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關得自行委託居家托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記管理媒合輔導監督或檢查事項居家托育人員對於直轄市縣市主管機關之監督及檢查不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童"},{"start":27236.295,"end":27264.322,"text":"居家托育人員因優先考量兒童之最佳利益包括但不限於其生理心理健康安全及發展需求之保障對於有為兒童之最佳利益之行為由紫霞市縣市主管機關依依對兒童危害程度即違規點數1點至3點居家托育人員2年內即違規點數達6點者由紫霞市縣市主管機關暫停新收托8個月並公告上網原有收托者依家長意願"},{"start":27265.522,"end":27290.026,"text":"協助轉介居家托育人員五年內經暫停新收托兩次在違規而遭祭奠者廢止其登記證書居家托育人員之收托人數登記輔導管理廢止登記有違兒童之最佳利益之行為及其他應遵形式像是辦法由中央主管機關定之委員蔡易餘等17人提案與委員黃婕等21人提案同"},{"start":27294.505,"end":27296.666,"text":"委員陳培玉等19人提案第13條"},{"start":27325.125,"end":27345.45,"text":"或檢查居家托育人員對直轄市縣市主管機關之監督及檢查不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童第一項居家托育人員之登記收托人數輔導管理廢紙登記及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員郭玉琴等21人提案與委員黃潔等21人提案同委員陳素月等16人提案與委員楊玉純等16人提案同"},{"start":27353.84,"end":27369.107,"text":"委員王美惠等19人提案第11條成年人具備下列資格之一者應填去申請書並檢據相關文件資料像指甲式限制主管機關代理登記取得居家托育服務證書後使得提供服務一取得保姆或托育人員技術實證"},{"start":27369.912,"end":27389.591,"text":"二高級中等營商學校幼兒保育幼兒教育家政護理相關學程科系所畢業直轄市縣市主管機關得知行或委託居家托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記管理媒合輔導監督或檢查事項居家托育人員對於直轄市縣市主管機關之監督其檢查不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童"},{"start":27390.191,"end":27404.489,"text":"第一項居家托育人員之收托人數登記輔導管理廢紙登記及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員王真旭等18人提案與委員黃婕等21人提案同委員林淑彬等25人提案第16條"},{"start":27406.345,"end":27433.725,"text":"托育专业人员应填据申请书并检据相关文件资料向指辖市县市主管机关办理登记与取得居家式托育服务登记证书后使得提供居家托育服务居家托育人员对于指辖市县市主管机关或居家托育服务中心之监督及检查不得规避妨碍或拒绝检查时不得借故藏匿儿童第一项居家托育人员之登记收托人数辅导管理废纸登记及其他应遵行事项事办法由中央主管机关定之委员吴"},{"start":27436.207,"end":27459.538,"text":"第11條 成年人依具備下的資格之一者應提據申請書並檢據相關文件資料向直轄市縣市主管機關辦理登記予取得居家托育服務證書後 使得提供居家托育服務一 取得保姆或托育人員技術試證二 高級中等以上學校幼兒保育 幼兒教育 家政護理相關學程科系所畢業直轄市縣市主管機關得自行或委託居家托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記管理媒合輔導"},{"start":27461.119,"end":27476.159,"text":"監督或檢查居家托育人員對紫霞市縣市主管機關之監督及檢查不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿立項居家托育人員之登記收託人數輔導管理廢紙登記及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":27477.717,"end":27500.064,"text":"行政院委員黃潔等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員李坤臣等22人委員郭玉琴等21人委員鄭天才等18人委員王美惠等19人委員王振旭等18人委員吳佩儀等18人提案第12條提供在宅托育服務之居家托育人員應將居家托育人員服務證書懸掛於服務登記處所足知辨識之明顯處"},{"start":27501.204,"end":27509.251,"text":"委員林月琴等16人提案第11條依本法規定發給之居家托育服務登記證書免徵規費提供在宅托育服務之居家托育人員應將前項證書懸掛於服務登記處所足資辨識之明顯處"},{"start":27518.98,"end":27530.993,"text":"委員何新淳等16人提案第12條依本法規定發給之居家托育服務登記證書免徵歸費提供在宅托育服務之居家托育人員應將前項證書懸掛於服務登記處所足資辨識之明顯處委員邱樂華等16人提案與委員林月琴等16人提案同"},{"start":27539.642,"end":27555.215,"text":"委员陈培宇等19人提案陈培宇等19人提案第14条提供载载托育服务之居家托育人员应将居家托育人员服务登记证书悬挂与服务登记处所足资辨识之明显处委员陈素月等16人提案"},{"start":27556.256,"end":27567.009,"text":"與委員何欣淳等16人提案同委員林淑芬等25人提案第17條提供在宅托育服務之居家托育人員應將居家式托育服務登記證書懸掛於服務登記處所足資辨識之明顯處"},{"start":27570.993,"end":27582.981,"text":"行政院委員李昆成等22人委員曾天才等18人委員吳佩儀等18人提案第13條居家托育服務之收費及退費項目由中央主管機關公告之直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄區內物價指數及當地區家庭可支配所得依居家托育服務收多"},{"start":27589.825,"end":27611.454,"text":"方式與前項中央主管機關公告之收費及退費項目分區訂定居家托育服務收費及退費之基準並訂其公告委員林月琴等16人提案第12條直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地區家庭可支配所得依居家托育服務收托方式訂其公告分區托育服務"},{"start":27612.074,"end":27640.297,"text":"收退费项目及金额委员何新泉等16人提案第13条直辖市县市主管机关应审着辖内物价指数及当地区家庭可支配所得依居家托育服务收托方式定期公告分区托育服务收退费项目及金额委员邱若华等16人提案与委员林月琴等16人提案同委员黄杰等21人委员蔡易宇等17人委员王美惠等19人委员王振旭等18人提案"},{"start":27641.889,"end":27661.767,"text":"第13條居家托育服務之收費退費項目由中央主管機關公告之直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄區內物價指數及當地區家庭可支配所得按居家托育服務收托方式並依承向中央主管機關公告之收退費項目分區訂定托育服務收退費基準"},{"start":27662.427,"end":27686.116,"text":"並定期公告之委員陳培宇等19人提案第15條居家托育服務之收費及退費項目及其訂定與調整原則由中央主管機關公告之中央主管機關應定其召集直轄市縣市主管機關及相關學者專家民間團體代表審酌全國及各地區消費者物價指數家庭可支配所得托育人員勞動條件及其他相關因素進行研議"},{"start":27687.316,"end":27704.562,"text":"定定居家托育服務收費與退費基準資調整原則與指標並公告之直轄市縣市主管機關應依前項公告之調整原則及指標結合轄區實際情形按居家托育服務之收托方式並依第一項公告之收費及退費項目"},{"start":27705.242,"end":27733.961,"text":"分區訂定托育服務收費及退費之基準並公告實施前向托育服務收費及退費之基準應至少每二年定期檢討並調整遇有重大物價變動勞動條件顯著改變或中央主管機關任有必要時應及時檢討並調整之前向相關執行程序及所應參採之指標由中央主管機關定之委員郭玉琴等二十一人提案與委員黃婕等二十一人提案同"},{"start":27734.801,"end":27750.191,"text":"委員陳素月等16人提案第13條直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地區家庭可支配所得依居家托育服務收托方式定期公告分區托育服務收退費項目及金額"},{"start":27751.171,"end":27776.217,"text":"委員林淑芬等二十五人提案第十八條中央主管機關應審著轄內物價指數當地最近二年居家托育服務收費情形行政院主席總署公告當地最近二年家庭可支配所得並參考公教人員調薪及民間調薪幅度依居家托育收托方式經第七條之審議會審議後每二年公告各子轄市縣市分區之居家托育收退費項目及基準行政"},{"start":27779.093,"end":27785.267,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等22人委員鄭天才等18人委員吳佩義等18人提案"},{"start":27787.591,"end":27815.403,"text":"第十四条居家托育人员不得收取前条第二项指辖市县市主管机关公告之收费与退费项目及其金额基准以外之费用委员林月琴等16人提案第十三条居家托育人员不得巧立名目或任意收取前条公告项目金额范围以外之费用委员何新泉等16人提案第十四条居家托育人员不得巧立名目或任意收取前条公告项目金额范围以外之费用"},{"start":27816.502,"end":27837.257,"text":"委員邱若驊等16人提案第13條居家托育人員不得巧立名目或任意收取前條公告項目金額範圍以外之費用委員黃婕等21人委員蔡奕宇等17人委員郭玉琴等21人委員王美惠等19人委員王正旭等18人提案第14條居家托育人員不得收取前條公告項目及基準範圍以外之費用"},{"start":27838.823,"end":27864.535,"text":"委員陳佩玉等19人提案第16條居家托育人員不得收取前條公告之收費與退費項目及其金額基準以外之費用委員陳素月等16人提案與委員何新淳等16人提案同委員林淑芬等25人提案第19條居家托育人員不得收取前條中央主管機關公告之收費與退費項目及其金額基準範圍以外之費用"},{"start":27867.423,"end":27879.679,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等22人委員鄭天才等18人提案第15條居家托育人員提供托育服務應與送托兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人就托育服務之權利義務關係訂定書面契約"},{"start":27882.703,"end":27904.632,"text":"前項書面契約之格稅及內容中央主管機關應訂定定型化契約範本與其應記載及不得記載事項委員林月琴等16人提案第14條居家托育人員受托提供托育服務應與送托兒童之父母或監護人訂定托育服務之書面契約規定其權利義務關係委員何新淳等16人提案第15條"},{"start":27905.532,"end":27928.084,"text":"居家托育人員受托提供托育服務應與送托兒童之父母或監護人訂定托育服務之書面契約規定其權利義務關係委員王玉明等24人提案第44條居家托育人員托育機構及互助士托育機構應與送托兒童之父母或監護人訂定托育服務書面契約委員邱若驊等16人提案"},{"start":27930.458,"end":27955.03,"text":"第十四條居家托育人員受托提供托育服務應與送托兒童之父母或監護人訂定托育服務之書面契約規定及權利義務關係委員黃潔等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員郭玉琴等21人委員王美惠等19人委員王正旭等18人提案第十五條居家托育人員受托提供托育服務應與送托兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人"},{"start":27955.49,"end":27966.42,"text":"就托育服务及权利义务关系订定书面契约书面契约格式内容中央主管机关应订定定型化契约范本及其应记载及不得记载事项"},{"start":27968.226,"end":27992.993,"text":"委員陳培鈺等19人提案第17條居家托育人員提供托育服務應與送托兒童司法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人就托育服務之權利義務關係訂定書面契約書面契約之格式及內容中央主管機關應訂定定型化契約範本及其應記載及不得記載事項委員陳素月等16人提案與委員何新淳等16人提案同委員林淑芬等25人提案"},{"start":27993.733,"end":28004.117,"text":"第20條居家托育人員提供托育服務應與送托兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人就托育服務之權利義務關係訂定書面契約並提供契約副本與居家托育服務中心存償前項書面契約資格涉及內容中央主管機關應訂定定型化契約範本與其應記載及不得記載事項委員吳佩義等18人提案"},{"start":28017.481,"end":28044.376,"text":"第15條居家托育人員提供托育服務應與送托兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人就托育服務之權利義務關係訂定書面契約前項書面契約應考量兒童之最佳利益及格式及內容中央主管機關應訂定定型化契約範本與其應記載及不得記載事項兒童有應直轄市縣市主管機關之保護安置出養前安置或其他情形政府替代性照顧而送托之情形"},{"start":28045.396,"end":28072.073,"text":"且其居家服務提供方式為全日托育者前項之定型化契約範本與其應記載及不得記載事項應專門定之行政院委員李坤成等22人委員曾天才等18人提案第16條居家托育人員應有收托兒童逝世期間投保專業責任保險前項保險期間發生保險事故時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理"},{"start":28074.654,"end":28098.899,"text":"委員林月琴等16人提案第15條居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前投保專業責任保險保險事故發生時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理理賠事宜委員何欣淳等16人提案第16條居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前投保專業責任保險保險事故發生時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理理賠事宜"},{"start":28099.719,"end":28122.455,"text":"委員王玉明等24人提案第15條居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前投保專業責任保險保險事故發生時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理理賠事宜委員邱樂華等16人提案第15條居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前投保專業責任保險完畢保險事故發生時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理理賠事宜"},{"start":28124.116,"end":28140.468,"text":"委員黃婕等21人委員蔡易餘等17人委員郭育晴等21人委員王美惠等19人委員王真旭等18人提案第16條居家托育人員應投保專業責任保險但無收托事實者不在此限保險事故發生時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理"},{"start":28142.529,"end":28161.215,"text":"賠償事宜委員王玉敏等24人提案第16條直轄市縣市主管機關對未依第14條第一項規定未經許可及收託兒童者應派員進入該場所檢查受檢查者不得規避妨礙或拒絕並應提供必要之文件資料或其他協助主管機關對於前項收託之兒童應強制轉介收託兒童者應與配合"},{"start":28166.457,"end":28183.263,"text":"委員王衛明等二十四人提案第十七條直轄市縣市主管機關應辦理公共化居家托育服務並辦理下列事項一人員之遴選督導輔導及管理二場地設施設備環境評估督導輔導及管理三訂定收費收費標準"},{"start":28184.864,"end":28201.791,"text":"前項公共化居家托育服務之托育人員待遇福利照顧比例直轄市縣市主管機關輔導與協助管理督導之頻率內容及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員王衛明等24人提案第18條"},{"start":28202.751,"end":28219.583,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關應針對家庭遭遇經濟教養婚姻醫療身份或其他不利處分之兒童優先提供公共化居家托育服務前向優先收托對象之資格比例及其他相關辦法由直轄市縣市主管機關定制"},{"start":28221.912,"end":28244.7,"text":"委員陈培宇等19人提案第18条居家托育人员因与有收托儿童逝世期间投保专业责任保险前项保险期间发生保险事故时居家托育服务中心应主动协助办理赔偿事宜委员陈素月等16人提案与委员何新纯等16人提案同"},{"start":28245.76,"end":28264.282,"text":"委員林淑芬等25人提案第21條居家托育人員應與取得居家式托育服務登記證書後投保專業責任保險最遲應與收托兒童當日前完成投保前項保險期間發生保險事故時居家托育服務中心得主動協助辦理賠償事宜"},{"start":28266.284,"end":28280.09,"text":"委员吴佩义等18人提案第16条居家托育人员因于有收托儿童事实期间投保专业责任保险前向保险期间发生保险事故时居家托育服务中心应主动协助办理赔偿事宜"},{"start":28286.876,"end":28303.439,"text":"行政院委员黄洁等21人委员蔡易宇等17人委员李坤臣等22人委员郭玉琴等21人委员郑天才等18人委员王美惠等19人委员王正旭等18人委员吴佩玉等18人提案"},{"start":28304.676,"end":28320.875,"text":"第17條兒童支法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人對居家托育人員提供之托育服務方式及內容有意見時得請求居家托育人員提出說明並得經由雙方協議是需要修正或調整之委員林月琴等16人提案第18條"},{"start":28321.776,"end":28336.713,"text":"父母或監护人对居家托育人员提供之托育服务方式及内容有意见时,得请求居家托育人员提出说明,并得经由双方协议,是需要修正或调整之。委员何新纯等16人提案,同委员林月琴等16人提案。"},{"start":28337.952,"end":28364.72,"text":"第十九條委員何欣淳等十六人提案第十九條同委員林月琴等十六人提案第十八條委員王玉明等二十四人提案第四十五條父母或監護人對居家托育人員托育機構及互助室托育機構提供之托育服務方式及內容有意見時得請求其提出說明並得經由雙方協議是需要修正或調整之委員邱樂華等十六人提案"},{"start":28366.243,"end":28368.635,"text":"與委員林月琴等16人提案同"},{"start":28371.826,"end":28388.49,"text":"委員何新淳等16人提案第20條居家托育人員之托育服務有損及兒童權益者兒童之父母或監護人得於之夕之日起30日內向所在地直轄市縣市主管機關提出申訴直轄市縣市主管機關應進行必要之調查並於30日內將處理情形以書面通知申訴人直轄市縣市主管機關為處理前項申訴事件得組成專案小組進行調查"},{"start":28399.292,"end":28414.25,"text":"必要時得通知父母或監護人及居家托育人員到場說明前項小組成員得由第七條第一項規定之諮詢委員選任其組織申訴及其他相關事項之自治法規由直轄市縣市主管機關定之"},{"start":28417.782,"end":28446.589,"text":"委員陳佩玉等19人提案第19條居家托育人員應與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人以書面約定兒童傷病之就醫地點發生緊急傷病或事故時應依居家式托育服務緊急傷病救護原則為適當之處置前向居家式托育服務緊急傷病救護原則由直轄市縣市主管機關訂定之居家托育服務中心應輔導居家托育人員落實前向原則"},{"start":28447.569,"end":28472.796,"text":"委員林淑芬等25人提案第22條居家托育人員應與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人以書面約定兒童傷病之就醫地點發生緊急傷病或事故時應依居家式托育服務緊急傷病救護原則為適當之處置前向居家式托育服務緊急傷病救護原則由直轄市縣市主管機關訂定之居家托育服務中心應輔導居家托育人員落實前向原則"},{"start":28473.676,"end":28488.402,"text":"委員陳培鈺等19人提案第20條同院版第17條委員陳素月等16人提案第19條莫具為予以修正或調整之予以委員何新淳等16人提案同"},{"start":28496.482,"end":28514.233,"text":"委員陳培宇等19人提案第21條中央主管機關應擬定居家托育發展及推動計劃並每2年檢討修正以充實居家托育服務人員及提升照顧品質委員林淑彬等25人提案第23條同委員陳培宇提案第21條"},{"start":28516.144,"end":28543.072,"text":"同委員陳培宇等十九人提案第二十一條行政院委員林月琴等十六人委員何新淳等十六人委員王玉敏等二十四人委員邱若驊等十六人委員黃婕等二十一人委員蔡易宇等十七人委員李坤澄等二十二人委員陳培宇等十九人委員郭玉琴等二十一人委員陳素月等十六人委員鄭天才等十八人委員王美惠等十九人委員林淑芬等二十五人委員王振旭等十八人委員吳佩義等十八人提案第三張托育機構"},{"start":28544.412,"end":28559.899,"text":"行政院委員李坤臣等22人委員鄭天才等18人提案第18條直轄市縣市鄉鎮市直轄市山地原住民區學校法人團體醫院商業或自然能得設立托嬰中心"},{"start":28560.579,"end":28589.571,"text":"設立托嬰中心應檢據相關文件資料向指甲室縣市主管機關申請許可與取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務政府機關購依性別平等工作法第23條第一項第二款規定設立之托嬰中心應依下列順序招收兒童一員工之職系血清被清除二需要協助這兒童三前二款以外這兒童學校法人醫院或商業依性別平等工作工作法第23條第一項第二款規定設立之托嬰中心"},{"start":28590.191,"end":28609.845,"text":"以招收其所属员工及与其签订契约办理联合托育者所属员工之职系写清被清除为主,得收托人数有余额者,经直辖市县市主管机关核准后,使得招收其他儿童。委员林月琴等16人提案,委员邱若华等16人提案。"},{"start":28611.038,"end":28636.676,"text":"第二十條直轄市縣市鄉鎮市直轄市山地原住民區學校法人團體醫院商業或個人得辦理托育機構托育機構應經直轄市縣市主管機關許可設立並於取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務直轄市縣市主管機關自行或委託辦理托育機構應訂定一定比率優先收托符合第四條第三項之二頭"},{"start":28637.316,"end":28663.642,"text":"依性別評點工作法第23條第1項第二款所設之托兒設施以遭受其所屬及與其簽訂契約與簽訂契約辦理聯合托育者之員工子女孫子女為主有餘額者經直轄市縣市主管機關核准後 使得遭受其他兒童政府機關構議前項規定設立之托兒設施依下列順序遭受兒童依員工子女孫子女"},{"start":28664.022,"end":28676.985,"text":"二 需要協助兒童三 前二款以外兒童托育機構設立許可之要件程序審核期限撤銷與廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業規模面積設施收托人數收托時間人員資格與配適托育人員照顧比例業務範圍"},{"start":28684.947,"end":28698.914,"text":"督導管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員何新淳等16人委員陳素月等16人提案第21條直轄市縣市鄉鎮市直轄市山地原住民族區學校法人團體"},{"start":28700.234,"end":28720.151,"text":"醫院商業或個人得辦理托育機構托育機構應經直轄市縣市主管機關許可設立並於取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務直轄市縣市主管機關自行或委託辦理托育機構應訂定一定比率優先收托符合第4條第3項之兒童依性別平等工作法第23條第1項第2款"},{"start":28721.932,"end":28736.599,"text":"所設置托兒設施一下列順序招收兒童一員工子女孫子女二需要協助兒童三前二款以外兒童托育機構設立許可之要件程序審核期限撤銷與廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業規模面積設施收托人數人員資格與配置"},{"start":28743.522,"end":28770.388,"text":"托育人員照顧比例業務範圍督導管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定資委員王玉明等二十四人提案第十九條直轄市縣市鄉鎮市直轄市山地原住民區學校法人團體醫院商業或個人得辦理托育機構托育機構應經直轄市縣市主管機關許可設立並取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務直轄市縣市主管機關自行或委託辦理"},{"start":28771.548,"end":28790.648,"text":"托育機構應訂定一定比率優先收托第4條第3項之兒童依性別平等工作法第23條第1項第2款所設之托兒設施與招收受僱者之子女孫子女或人有名兒時應經直轄市縣市主管機關許可後使得招收其他兒童但應以需要協助之兒童為優先對象"},{"start":28792.33,"end":28804.424,"text":"政府機關構依前項規定設立之托兒設施依下列順序招收兒童依員工子女孫子女二需要協助就兒童三前二款以外就兒童居家托育人員休閉托育人員專業訓練課程且領有結業徵書者"},{"start":28807.347,"end":28833.301,"text":"得與托育機構提供服務但應於一年內取得托育人員技術試證托育機構設立許可之要件程序審核期限撤銷與廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業規模面積設施收托人數人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例業務範圍督導管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員邱若驊等16人提案與委員陳月琴"},{"start":28837.399,"end":28839.366,"text":"與委員陳月琴等16人提案通"},{"start":28841.078,"end":28869.515,"text":"委員黃婕等21人委員蔡易宇等17人委員郭玉琴等21人委員王美惠等19人委員王振旭等19人提案第18條直轄市縣市鄉鎮市直轄市山地園住民區學校法輪團體醫院商業或自然人得設立托嬰中心設立托嬰中心應檢舉文件資料向直轄市縣市主管機關申請許可經審核通過後發給許可證書政府機關構議性別平等工作法第23條第1項第二款設立之托嬰中心"},{"start":28870.035,"end":28895.536,"text":"因依下列順序招收兒童一員工直系血清背金屬二需要協助這個兒童三前二款以外兒童學校法人醫院或商業醫前向規定設立托嬰中心者以招收其所屬及與其簽訂契約辦理聯合托育者之員工直系血清背金屬為主有餘額者經執轄市縣市主管機關核准後使得招收其他兒童"},{"start":28901.175,"end":28926.756,"text":"委員陳培玉等19人提案第22條紫霞市縣市鄉鎮市紫霞市山地園住民區學校法人團體醫院商業或自然人的設立托嬰中心設立托嬰中心應檢舉文件資料向紫霞市縣市主管機關申請許可經取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務政府機關構議性別評等工作法第23條第一項第二款設立之托嬰中心因依下列順序遭受兒童"},{"start":28927.256,"end":28954.802,"text":"一員工直系血清背清署二需要協助之兒童三前二款前二款以外兒童學校法人商醫院或商業醫性別評等工作法第二十三條第一項第二款規定設立之托孕中心其招收其所屬員工及與其簽訂契約辦理聯合托育者所屬員工之直系血清背清署為主得收托人數有餘額者經直轄市縣市主管機關核准後使得招收其他兒童第三項托育機構之托育人員"},{"start":28955.362,"end":28962.611,"text":"由主管人員及工作人員薪資托育人員主管人員及工作人員薪資由主管機關定資"},{"start":28969.793,"end":28996.69,"text":"委員林淑芬等25人提案第24條直轄市縣市鄉鎮市直轄市山地原住民區學校法人團體醫院商業或自然人得設立托嬰中心設立托嬰中心應檢據相關文件資料向直轄市縣市主管機關申請許可與取得許可證書或使得提供托育服務學校法人醫院或商業醫性別平等工作法第23條第一項第二款規定設立之托嬰中心以遭受其所屬員工及"},{"start":28997.51,"end":29025.915,"text":"與其簽訂契約辦理聯合托育者所屬員工之職系血清被清除為主得收托人數有餘額者經紫霞市縣市主管機關核准後時得招收其他兒童第一項托嬰中心及第25條第一項公共托育家園設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員收托兒童照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法"},{"start":29026.836,"end":29028.51,"text":"由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":29033.905,"end":29058.354,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等22人提案第19條紫霞市縣市主管機關因自行或委託辦理公共托育家園及托嬰中心並訂定一定比例優先收托需要協助之兒童非營利性質之法人機構或團體得依紫霞市縣市主管機關之公告參加甄選後受委托辦理公共托育家園托嬰中心"},{"start":29058.994,"end":29081.01,"text":"非營利性質之法人、機構或團體依前項規定受委託後,應檢據相關文件資料,向紫霞市縣市主管機關申請設立公共托育家園或托嬰中心許可,與取得許可證書後,使得提供托育服務。托嬰中心及公共托育家園設立許可之要件、程序、廢止許可。"},{"start":29081.91,"end":29094.992,"text":"擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧收托兒童比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員黃婕等21人提案第一項同院版第一項第二項同院版第二項"},{"start":29111.428,"end":29132.084,"text":"第三項前項法人團體或機構受託委託後因檢據文件資料依第四項所定辦法向直轄市縣市主管機關申請設立公共托育家園托嬰中心許可並取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務如有事實足認對兒童權益有侵害之虞者"},{"start":29132.524,"end":29153.23,"text":"主管機關得補回其申請前條托嬰中心及第一項公共托育家園設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員委員蔡易宇等17人提案"},{"start":29161.957,"end":29172.753,"text":"第一項同院版第二項同院版第三項前項法人團體或機構受委託後應檢舉文件"},{"start":29174.065,"end":29194.722,"text":"資料一第四項鎖定辦法向紫霞市縣市主管機關申請設立公共托育家園托嬰中心許可並取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務前條托育中心及第一項公共托育家園設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置"},{"start":29199.125,"end":29221.256,"text":"托育人員照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員陳培鈺等19人提案第23條直轄市縣市主管機關應自行或委託辦理公共托育家園托嬰中心並訂定一定比率優先收托需要協助之兒童非營利性質之法人"},{"start":29223.094,"end":29239.386,"text":"機構或團體得依指甲式縣市主管機關制公告參加申選後受委託辦理公共托育家園托嬰中心第三項同院版第二項"},{"start":29240.851,"end":29264.281,"text":"托嬰中心及公共托育家園設立許可之要件程序對子許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員收托兒童照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第一項托育機構之托育人員主管人員及工作人員薪資由主管機關定之"},{"start":29268.226,"end":29286.033,"text":"委員郭育晴等21人提案第一項同委員蔡奕宇等17人提案第二項同委員蔡奕宇等17人提案第三項同委員蔡奕宇等17人提案"},{"start":29290.908,"end":29308.214,"text":"前條托嬰中心及第一項公共托育家園設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":29311.721,"end":29340.313,"text":"委員鄭天才等18人提案第19條直轄市縣市主管及觀音自行或委託辦理公共托育家園及托嬰中心並訂定一定比例優先收托低收入戶中低收入戶特殊禁慾家庭身心障礙者及原住民家庭之兒童第二項同院版第二項第三項同院版第三項第四項同院版的第四項"},{"start":29344.335,"end":29353.677,"text":"委員王美惠等19人提案第19條第一項同院版第一項第二項同院版第二項"},{"start":29355.865,"end":29375.343,"text":"第三項前項法人團體或機構受委託後應檢舉文件資料依第四項鎖定辦法向直轄市縣市主管機關申請設立公共托育家園托嬰中心許可並取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務前條托嬰中心及第一項公共托育家園設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充"},{"start":29376.665,"end":29391.061,"text":"遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員王振旭等18人提案與委員黃婕等21人提案同"},{"start":29395.686,"end":29418.502,"text":"委員林淑芬等25人提案第25條直轄市縣市主管機關因自行或委託辦理公共托育家園及托嬰中心並訂定一定比率優先收托需要協助之兒童外令得優先收托托育機構之員工子女兒童登記就登記就托時其兄弟姊妹與同一托兒設施持續就托者亦得優先招收"},{"start":29419.162,"end":29440.252,"text":"政府機關構議性別平等工作法第23條第一項第二款規定設立之托嬰中心因應下列順序招收兒童一員工之職系寫清背清書二需要協助之兒童三該托嬰中心之員工子女四前三款以外之兒前三款以外兒童但其兄弟姐妹已於同一托嬰中心持續就託者"},{"start":29441.432,"end":29466.525,"text":"得於同一順序優先招收非營利性執執法人團體或機構得依直轄市縣市主管機關或政府機關公知公告參加申請後受委託辦理公共托育家園托嬰中心非營利性執執法人機構或團體依前項規定受委託後應檢據相關文件資料依前條第四項鎖定辦法向直轄市縣市主管機關申請設立公共托育家園"},{"start":29467.285,"end":29490.114,"text":"或托嬰中心許可 於取得許可證書後 使得提供托育服務 第一項及第二項托育機構之托育人員 主管人員及工作人員薪資由主管機關定之委員吳沛 委員吳沛義等18人提案 第一項同院版第一項 第二項同院版第二項第三項"},{"start":29497.962,"end":29520.528,"text":"第三項同院版第三項托嬰中心及公共托育家園設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員收托兒童照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":29521.408,"end":29544.105,"text":"行政院委員李坤成等22人提案第20條離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制與兒童生活及照顧服務之需要得設立社區互動式托育機構為營造原住民族兒童學習其族語與文化機會之托育環境及發揮部落照顧精神得設立部落互助式托育機構"},{"start":29545.026,"end":29561.76,"text":"政府機關構學校公營事業機構公司及非政府組織為照顧所屬員工之職系寫清背清署得於各該場址設立職場互助式托育機構依前三項規定設立互助式托育機構者應檢據相關文件資料向直轄市縣市主管機關申請許可"},{"start":29565.943,"end":29574.825,"text":"與取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務第一項至第三項地區範圍辦理方式收託對象設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧照顧收託兒童比例收託人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族主管機關"},{"start":29594.409,"end":29619.003,"text":"勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定制委員林月琴等16人提案第38條離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制及兒童生活與照顧服務之需要得採取社區互助式方式提供兒童托育服務為營造援助民族兒童學習其族語及文化機會之托育環境"},{"start":29620.224,"end":29637.295,"text":"與發揮部落照顧精神、德採部落互助式方式提供兒童托育服務政府機關構、公營事業機構、公司、學校及非政府組織為照顧員工子女及孫子女得與各該場址設置職場互動式方式兒童托育服務"},{"start":29638.115,"end":29657.913,"text":"前三項互助式托育服務應經直轄市縣市主管機關許可使得提供托育服務第一項至第三項地區範圍辦理方式收托方式收托對象收托人數收托時間收托年限專業人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例許可條件與程序面積設施與設備"},{"start":29659.874,"end":29685.336,"text":"衛生保健直轄市縣市主管機關輔導與協助平和檢查管理撤銷或廢止許可收退費及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定之委員何新淳等16人提案第一項同委員林月琴等16人提案"},{"start":29689.11,"end":29701.287,"text":"第二項同委員林月琴等16人提案第三項同委員林月琴等16人提案第四項同委員林月琴等16人提案"},{"start":29705.543,"end":29719.514,"text":"第一項自第三項地區範圍辦理方式收託對象收託人數收託年限專業人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例許可條件與程序環境設施與設備衛生保健直轄市縣市主管機關輔導與協助"},{"start":29721.275,"end":29745.612,"text":"平和檢查管理撤銷或廢止許可收退費及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商原住民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定之委員王衛明等24人提案第29條離島偏遠地區未因應地理條件限制及兒童生活與照顧服務之需要得採取互助式方式提供兒童托育服務"},{"start":29746.432,"end":29771.998,"text":"为营造援助民族儿童学习其族语及文化机会之托育环境并发挥部落照顾之精神得采取部落互助式方式提供儿童托育服务政府机关购、公营事业机构、公司、学校及非政府组织为照顾员工子女及孙子女得于各该场址设置职场互动式方式提供儿童托育服务前三项互助式托育"},{"start":29779.261,"end":29797.91,"text":"應經紫霞市縣市主管機關許可使得提供服務第一項至第三項之地區範圍收拖方式收拖對象收拖人數收拖年限托育專業人員資格與配置照顧比例許可條件與程序環境設施與設備衛生保健紫霞市縣市主管機關輔導與協助"},{"start":29799.671,"end":29817.276,"text":"平和檢查管理撤銷或廢止許可收退費及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定之委員邱若驊等16人提案與委員林月琴等16人提案同"},{"start":29819.301,"end":29843.411,"text":"委員黃婕等21人提案第20條離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制及兒童生活與照顧服務之需要得設立社區互助式托育機構提供兒童托育服務為營造援助民族兒童學習其族語及文化機會之托育環境與發揮部落照顧精神得設立部落互助式托育機構提供兒童托育服務"},{"start":29844.131,"end":29866.213,"text":"政府机关购学校公营事业机构公司及非政府组织为照顾员工职系写清背景书得于各该厂子设立职场互助式托育机构提供儿童托育服务依前三项规定设立互助式托育机构者应检据文件资料向直辖市县市主管机关申请许可经审核通过后发给许可证书"},{"start":29866.773,"end":29893.445,"text":"第1項至第3項地區範圍辦理方式收託對象設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例收託人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族會商援助民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定之"},{"start":29899.049,"end":29900.892,"text":"委員蔡易餘等17人提案與委員黃婕等21人提案同"},{"start":29904.932,"end":29928.522,"text":"委員陳培鈺等十九人提案第二十四條離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制及兒童生活照顧服務之需要得設立社區互助式托育機構為營造原住民族兒童學習其族語及文化機會之托育環境與發揮部落照顧精神得設立部落互助式托育機構中央主管機關或原住民族主管機關的補助辦理"},{"start":29930.163,"end":29952.908,"text":"政府機關構學校公營事業機構公司及非政府組織為照顧所屬員工之職系寫清非清楚得於各該場址設立職場互助式托育機構依前三項規定設立互助式托育機構者應檢據相關文件資料向職下市縣市主管機關申請許可與取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務"},{"start":29954.088,"end":29981.859,"text":"第一項至第三項地區範圍辦理方式收託對象設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧收託兒童比例收託人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定之委員郭玉琴等21人提案與委員黃婕等21人"},{"start":29983.78,"end":29989.25,"text":"提案同委員鄭天才等18人提案"},{"start":29995.39,"end":30014.413,"text":"第20條離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制與兒童生活及照顧服務之需要得設立社區互助式托育機構為營造原住民族兒童學習其族語與文化機會之托育環境及發揮部落照顧精神得設立部落互助式托育機構"},{"start":30015.234,"end":30043.492,"text":"政府機關構學校公營事業機構公司及非政府組織為照顧所屬員工之職系寫信非親屬等於各該場址設立職場互助式托育機構依前三項規定設立互助式托育機構者應檢據相關文件資料向指甲室縣市主管機關申請許可與取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務第一項至第三項地區範圍辦理方式收托對象設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移"},{"start":30044.953,"end":30062.896,"text":"停业歇业复业面积设施设备托育相关人员资格与配置托育人员照顾收托儿童比例收托人数及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关会商援助民族主管机关劳动主管机关及教育主管机关定之"},{"start":30063.897,"end":30084.15,"text":"委員王美惠等19人提案第20條離島偏遠地區為因地理條件限制及兒童生活與照顧服務之需要得設立社區互助式托育機構提供兒童托育服務為營造原住民族兒童學習其族語及文化機會之托育環境與發揮部落照顧精神得設立部落互助式托育機構"},{"start":30084.93,"end":30113.395,"text":"提供兒童托育服務政府機關購學校公營事業機構公司及非政府組織為照顧員工直系血清肺清數得與各該廠子設立職場互助式托育機構提供兒童托育服務依前三項規定設立互助式托育機構者應檢據文件資料向紫霞市縣市主管機關申請許可經審核通過後發給許可證書第一項至第三項地區範圍辦理方式收託對象設立許可之要件程序廢止許可"},{"start":30114.535,"end":30136.843,"text":"擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定制委員王振旭等18人提案與委員黃婕等21人提案同"},{"start":30141.232,"end":30154.292,"text":"委員吳佩義等18人提案第20條離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制及兒童生活與照顧服務之需要得設立社區式互助"},{"start":30156.045,"end":30171.417,"text":"互助式托育機構提供兒童托育服務為營造援助民族兒童學習其族語及文化機會之托育環境與發揮部落照顧精神得設立部落互助式托育機構提供兒童托育服務"},{"start":30172.117,"end":30186.634,"text":"政府機關夠學校公營事業機構公司及非政府組織為照顧員工仔細寫清非清楚得於各該場址設立職場互助式托育機構提供兒童托育服務依前三項規定設立互助式托育機構者應檢據文件資料項指甲式縣市主管機關申請許可經審核通過後發給許可證書"},{"start":30192.581,"end":30217.12,"text":"第一項至第三項地區範圍辦理方式收託方式設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧比例周托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定之"},{"start":30218.081,"end":30240.664,"text":"委員林淑芬等二十五人提案第26條離島偏島地區為因應地理條件限制與兒童生活及照顧服務之需要得設立社區互助式托育機構為營造援助民族兒童學習其族與文化機會之托育環境及發揮部落照顧精神得設立部落互助式托育機構中央主管機關或援助民族主管機關得補助辦理"},{"start":30243.191,"end":30266.969,"text":"政府籍貫購學校公營事業機構公司及非政府組織為照顧所屬員工之職系寫信被簽署得於各該場址設立職場互助式托育機構依前三項規定設立互助式托育機構者應檢據相關文件資料向直轄市縣市主管機關申請許可與取得許可證書後使得提供托育服務第一項至第三項地區範圍辦理方式收托對象"},{"start":30270.671,"end":30295.498,"text":"設立許可之要件程序廢止許可擴充遷移停業歇業復業面積設施設備托育相關人員資格與配置托育人員照顧收托兒童比例收托人數及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商援助民族主管機關勞動主管機關及教育主管機關定之委員吳佩義等18人提案與院版同"},{"start":30298.612,"end":30300.773,"text":"好 現在休息十分鐘 休息後我們繼續開會"},{"start":31129.182,"end":31144.343,"text":"報告委員會我們接續宣讀病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案各版本內容而通托育服務法草案行政院版第21條以下各版本條文明天會議繼續宣讀來請宣讀"},{"start":31148.12,"end":31171.098,"text":"病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案委員王玉敏等十八人委員劉建國等十六人委員邱志偉等十九人委員李博義等十六人委員羅廷偉等十六人提案現行法條文對照表委員王玉敏等十八人提案第三條第四款如下四意願人只以書面方式為育立醫療決定之人或符合為育立醫療決定資格之人"},{"start":31174.48,"end":31191.542,"text":"第六款修正文字病人為意願人予以現行法同委員劉建國等16人提案第三條第四款據莫增列或符合為育立醫療決定資格之人第六款修正文字病人為意願人予以現行法同"},{"start":31192.643,"end":31204.174,"text":"委員王玉敏等十八人提案委員劉建國等十六人提案第四條增訂第三項如下病人已無法明示其意願且成為預立醫療決定者關係人不得妨礙醫療機構或醫師依病人預立醫療決定之作為予以現行法同"},{"start":31212.702,"end":31236.038,"text":"委員王玉敏等18人提案第5條第一項手具逗號後面增列有知情權利句號第二項受輔助宣告之人後面增列頓號意思表示能力顯有不足予以現行法同委員劉建國等16人提案第5條第二項同委員王玉敏等18人提案予以現行法同"},{"start":31237.867,"end":31252.407,"text":"委員王玉敏等18人委員劉建國等16人提案第6條病人接受手術中央主管機關規定之侵入性檢查或治療前醫療機構應經病人同意簽具同意書使得為之"},{"start":31253.428,"end":31279.513,"text":"病人为民事反对由关系人行使同意权时得以关系人同意为之但情况紧急者不在此限病人为限制行为能力人受辅助宣告或意思表示能力显有不足者除病人同意外应经关系人同意病人为无行为能力意识昏迷或无法清楚表达意愿者应经关系人同意"},{"start":31280.293,"end":31302.691,"text":"委員王玉明等18人委員劉建國等16人提案第8條修正第一項守據為具行為能力之人修正第二項默據為接受或拒絕維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養之意願予以現行法同委員邱志偉等19人提案第8條修正第一項守據為具意識能力之成年人"},{"start":31303.411,"end":31321.324,"text":"修正第二項莫二據為終止撤除或不施行維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養之全部或一部予以現行法同委員王玉明等18人提案第9條第一項第二款如下二經公證人公證或具有"},{"start":31321.764,"end":31337.393,"text":"具行為能力者在場見證第二項如下醫院人配偶或二親等內之親屬至少一人及醫療委任代理人應參與前項第一款預例醫療照護諮商其他經醫院人同意之人亦得參與"},{"start":31339.619,"end":31363.794,"text":"但配偶二親等類之親屬或醫療委任代理人具特殊事由時得不參與修正第三項文字具薪資缺陷為無意思能力第四項如下醫院人之醫療委任代理人及主責照護醫療團隊成員不得為第一項第二款之見證人予以現行法同委員劉建國等16人提案第九條"},{"start":31364.815,"end":31392.368,"text":"第一项第一款及第二款如下一经主管机关核准之医疗机构护理机构长照机构心理治疗所心理治丧所社会工作室事务所或法人提供预立医疗照护资商并经其预立医疗决定上合章证明经一位医师诊断符合末期或中央主管机关公告第十四条第一项第五款疾病之病人得豁免预立医疗照护资商"},{"start":31393.228,"end":31410.499,"text":"二經公證人公證或具有行為能力者在場見證第二項及第四項與委員王玉敏等18人提案同第三項如下第一項第一款提供育立醫療照護諮商之各機構或法人有事時逐任"},{"start":31411.079,"end":31437.154,"text":"意愿人无意识能力或非出于自愿者不得为合张证明第五项手续为提供育历医疗照护资商之各机构或法人予以现行法同委员邱志伟等19人提案第9条第一项续文如下意愿人为育历医疗决定应符合下列规定之一增订第二项如下"},{"start":31437.754,"end":31462.29,"text":"前項預立醫療決定得註記與全民健康保險憑證該註記之效力與書面相同但醫院人依前條以書面撤回或變更時以書面為準修正現行第二項並以列為第三項如下醫院人配偶、二親等內職親屬至少一人及醫療委任代理人應參與前項第一款預立醫療照護諮商經醫院人同意之親屬亦得參與"},{"start":31467.954,"end":31482.873,"text":"但配偶二親等內之親屬死亡失蹤或具特殊事由時得不參與第四至第六項同現行第三至第五項予以現行法同委員李博義等十六人提案第九條"},{"start":31483.874,"end":31504.786,"text":"第二項如下,醫院人配偶或二親等內之親屬至少一人,醫療委任代理人,應參與前項第一款育立醫療照護諮商,經醫院人同意之親屬亦得參與,但二親等內之親屬死亡、失蹤或具特殊事由時不在此限,予以現行法同。"},{"start":31506.448,"end":31532.776,"text":"委員王玉敏等18人提案第10條刪除現行第二項修正第三項守據文字為醫療委任代理人或監護人於意願人意識昏迷或無法清楚表達意願時並將現行第三至第五項以列為第二項至第四項予以現行法同委員劉建國等16人提案與委員王玉敏等18人提案第一至第三項同"},{"start":31533.456,"end":31562.355,"text":"委員王玉敏等十八人提案第十二條刪除現行第三及第四項予以現行法同委員劉建國等十六人提案於現行第二項據莫增列或由意願人上傳網路版預立醫療決定書於中央主管機關之資料庫網路版預立醫療決定書應經預立醫療照護諮商提供機構數位簽章以符合第九條第一項第一款之合張證明規定"},{"start":31564.076,"end":31591.522,"text":"刪除現行第三及第四項予以現行法同委員王衛明等十八人委員劉建國等十六人提案第十四條第一項序文如下病人符合下列臨床條件之一且有預立醫療決定者醫療機構或醫師得依其預立醫療決定或臨床醫療過程中書面明示之意思表示終止撤除或不施行維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養"},{"start":31593.271,"end":31604.463,"text":"第一項第三款如下三永久植物人狀態或永久最低意識狀態第二項如下前項各款應由二位具相關專科醫師資格之醫師確診並經緩和醫療團隊照會確認"},{"start":31610.769,"end":31625.736,"text":"醫療機構或醫師對於前開診斷與照會義務不得無故拒絕第五項如下醫療機構或醫師依本條規定中指撤除或不施行維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養不負形式"},{"start":31627.457,"end":31636.745,"text":"行政與民事責任與現行法同委員王玉明等18人提案第15條醫療機構或醫師對前條第1項第1款及第5款之病人透過一組執行其預例醫療決定前於開始執行預例醫療決定前應向有意思能力之意願人確認該決定之內容及範圍"},{"start":31650.276,"end":31670.222,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第15條第二據如下透過依主執行其預立醫療決定前予以現行法同委員邱志偉等19人提案第15條於文字第一款後面增列頓號第4款予以現行法同委員王玉敏等18人委員劉建國等16人委員羅廷偉等16人提案新增第16條之一"},{"start":31676.844,"end":31697.334,"text":"辦理有關本法第九條第一項第一款之預例醫療照護諮商應由中央主管機關編列預算支應其支應方式內容及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第十四條第二項確診及確認程序及第十六條緩和醫療等項目所需醫療服務費用"},{"start":31699.215,"end":31722.253,"text":"應由中央主管機關納入全民健康保險醫療服務給付項目及支付標準委員王衛明等18人委員劉建國等16人提案第17條前段如下醫療機構或醫師應將其所執行第14條至第16條規定之事項詳細記載於病例予以現行法同宣讀"},{"start":31726.391,"end":31746.41,"text":"病人自主權利法第五條第九條第十四條修正動議第五條第二項病人為無行為能力人限制行為能力人受輔助宣告之人意思表示能力顯有不足或不能為醫師表示或受醫師表示時醫療機構或醫師應以適當方式告知本人及其關係人"},{"start":31747.611,"end":31763.027,"text":"据行为能力之病人经已为医师诊断符合末期或专案主管机关公告第十四条第一项第五款疾病时医疗机构或医师应告之病人第八条之医疗决定相关规定第一项同现行条文"},{"start":31766.601,"end":31780.334,"text":"第九條醫院人為育立醫療決定應符合下列規定一金主管機關和準製醫療機構護理機構長照機構心理治療所心理諮商所社會工作室事務所或法人提供育立醫療照護諮商並經其育立醫療決定上合張證明"},{"start":31785.158,"end":31806.267,"text":"2.经公证人公证或有具行为能力者在场见证3.经注记于全民健康保险凭证医院人配偶或二亲等内之亲属至少一人及医疗委任代理人应参与前项第一款预立医疗照护资商其他经医院人同意之人亦得参与但配偶二亲等内之亲属或医疗委任"},{"start":31806.607,"end":31826.939,"text":"任代理人具特殊事由时不得不参与第一项第一款提供预立医疗照护资商之各机构或法人有事时逐任医院人无意识能力或非出于自愿者不得为合张证明医院人之医疗委任代理人及主责照护医疗团队成员不得为第一项第二款之见证人"},{"start":31827.679,"end":31838.094,"text":"提供阅历医疗照护资商之各机构或法人其资格应组成之。资商团队成员与条件、程序及其他应遵循事项之办法由专案所管机关定之。"},{"start":31842.196,"end":31862.145,"text":"第十四条病人符合下列临床条件之一且有预立医疗决定者医疗机构或医师得依其预立医疗决定或临床医疗过程中书面民事之意是表示终止撤除或不施行维持生命治疗或人工营养及流体喂养一末期病人二处于不可逆转之昏迷状况"},{"start":31863.045,"end":31879.882,"text":"3.永久植物人状态或最低医师状态4.急重度失智5.其他经中央主管机关公告这病人疾病状况或痛苦难以忍受疾病无法治愈且依当时医疗水准无其他合适解决方法之情形前项各款应由"},{"start":31880.583,"end":31899.676,"text":"二位具相关专科医师资格之医师确诊并经缓和医疗团队照会确认医疗机构或医师对于前开诊断或照会医务不得无辜拒绝医疗机构或医师依其专业或医院无法执行病人阅历医疗决定时得不实施之前向前行医疗机构或医师应告知病人或关系人"},{"start":31900.816,"end":31922.221,"text":"医疗机构或医师依本条规定终止撤除或不施行维持生命治疗或人工营养及流体喂养,不负刑事、行政与民事责任。提案人委员刘建国、联署人委员杨耀、林月琴宣布完毕。本日会议到此结束,星期四早上九时继续审查,现在休息。"}]}},{"id":"16712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16712","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373ddabd91bd523f6fd0b761654f0ebe352da12e9ca99aa835c085cd25b6b6eead145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-28T08:31:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T14:15:00+08:00","duration":20625,"影片長度":"05:43:45","委員發言時間":"08:31:15 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核能安全委員會主任委員陳明尊率同有關人員主席林昭吉委員已警報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二 處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算公務預算解凍解凍案五案"},{"start":1884.408,"end":1897.787,"text":"三 處理一四年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管公務預算解凍案八案四 處理一四年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案一案"},{"start":1899.68,"end":1913.745,"text":"討論事項 一 處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管公務預算解凍案一案二 處理114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管公務預算解凍案一案"},{"start":1914.844,"end":1935.985,"text":"本次議程採綜合詢答有委員柯志恩等15人提出質詢均經專案研究院院長廖俊志、副院長莊美銀、核能安全委員會主任委員陳明珍及相關人員即席答覆說明另有委員林佩祥提出書面質詢決議一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":1937.366,"end":1962.352,"text":"3.對委員執行要求提供相關資料後,未及答覆不問,請相關機關盡速與順便答覆4.1.4年度中央政府總預算有關中央研究院主管公務預算解凍案6案,核能安全委員會主管預算公務預算解凍案9案行政法人國家原子能科技研究院解凍案1案審查完畢均予以動之提報院會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1965.25,"end":1989.625,"text":"好 請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好 沒有的話我們就議事錄確定那今天議程處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部主管預算公務預算解凍案33案那我們首先介紹在場委員郭玉琴委員陳秀寶委員"},{"start":1996.598,"end":2021.152,"text":"科智恩委員那我們現在介紹與會官員我們有教育部部長鄭義耀部長我們教育部政務次長張料萬堅次長那我們也謝謝非常多教育部的同仁共同列席那我們也謝謝這個高雄市政府副市長羅達森副市長"},{"start":2023.964,"end":2034.055,"text":"謝謝讓我們高雄市政府經濟發展局副局長 林廖嘉鴻副局長行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員黃子涵專委 謝謝"},{"start":2039.77,"end":2050.045,"text":"好那我們現在處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍書面報告案計22案請宣讀"},{"start":2055.089,"end":2080.496,"text":"一交易部函為國家運動科學中心一四年度總預算決議減送決議一總支出預算凍結兩百萬元書面報告請查詐案二交易部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議五十八凍結預算凍結書面報告請查詐案三交易部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議六十"},{"start":2081.816,"end":2108.096,"text":"預算凍結書面報告請查詐案四 教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議七十預算凍結書面報告請查詐案五 教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議七十五預算凍結書面報告請查詐案六 教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送體育署新增決議一八五"},{"start":2109.117,"end":2124.329,"text":"預算凍結書面報告請查詐案7.交易部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議1.預算凍結書面報告請查詐案8.交易部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議2.預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2130.867,"end":2142.293,"text":"9 交易部函 為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議3 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案10 交易部函 為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議4 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2147.276,"end":2158.326,"text":"11 交易部函 為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議6 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案12 交易部函 為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議7 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案13 交易部函 為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議8"},{"start":2168.596,"end":2192.226,"text":"預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十四 交易部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議九預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十五 交易部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議十預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十六 交易部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議十一"},{"start":2193.246,"end":2212.813,"text":"預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十七 教育部函 為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部決議十二 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十八 教育部函 為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國民及學前教育署決議一 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十九"},{"start":2213.533,"end":2238.206,"text":"教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送體育署決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送體育署決議二預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十一教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送青年發展署決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十二"},{"start":2238.806,"end":2255.212,"text":"教育部函 為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國家教育研究院決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案 宣讀完畢好 謝謝那請問在場委員對於這二十二案解凍書面報告案有沒有問題"},{"start":2258.713,"end":2280.53,"text":"那我想這個相關的書面報告的案件我們在上個會期審理的過程中其實我們教文委員會不分黨派都非常支持教育部的相關的計畫跟做法唯有一億的部分我們就有部分的這個解凍有這個凍結的案件那我們也看到教育部有花時間"},{"start":2281.391,"end":2296.337,"text":"也做了相關的回覆與整理那我們剛剛宣讀完畢以後我們的委員也都沒有問題那我想我們這22案就均准以被查提報院會那我們現在請教育部正部長進行報告時間8分鐘主席各位委員女士先生大家早安大家好"},{"start":2309.329,"end":2335.609,"text":"應要今日應邀列席貴委員會處理及審查依適年度本部主管公務預算及行政法人預算解凍案提出解凍報告自為感謝本部主管經大院審議凍結預算共33案包含提出書面報告22案提出專案報告11案詳細報告資料經已依決議函送大院"},{"start":2336.874,"end":2340.108,"text":"警舊專案報告之辦理情形重點說明如下"},{"start":2341.377,"end":2364.348,"text":"第一有關代言決議凍結本部經常支出之業務費預算25%一案本部推動中小學數位學習等各項重大教育政策經本一尊爵原則施用經費以產出超過1萬支教學影片與3萬本電子書吸引超過110萬人是參與計時教育試探活動持續辦理"},{"start":2370.593,"end":2375.06,"text":"141所大學評鑑及教學品質改善等務使計畫如實達成預期目標"},{"start":2379.008,"end":2402.664,"text":"二 有關大院決議凍結本部一般行政之業務會預算28%議案114年3月21日修正公布之財政收支劃分法中央與地方財政資源月經修正調整本部配合行政院規劃盤點中央與地方事權分配事實檢討調降補助比例或評估"},{"start":2405.848,"end":2411.018,"text":"或由評估地方自行負擔為原則等持續妥善配置預算資源"},{"start":2412.81,"end":2438.541,"text":"第三有關大院決議凍結本部一般行政向下推展一般教育及編印文教書刊預算20%一案依據地方制度法學校午餐業務屬地方自治項目相關人力配置午餐收費等須尊重地方政府因地制宜做法另因應財政收支劃分法修正中央與地方"},{"start":2439.91,"end":2448.767,"text":"財政資源已有所調整本部將持續與地方政府協調以達成共識其次有關大院決議凍結本部國家重點領域效績"},{"start":2452.389,"end":2476.198,"text":"沿郊沿區先導計畫預算三千萬元一案本項公共建設計畫經本部與高雄市政府國立清華大學國立陽明交通大學會談後於一一四年四月十六日再報行政院審議可依國家發展委員會五月十六日含糊意見進行修正作業第五有關答應決議凍結本部"},{"start":2479.981,"end":2508.32,"text":"體育署加強學校教育活動及教學發展預算兩千萬元一案持續完善教師輔導管教措施禁止校園體罰或霸凌事件並嚴格篩選以杜絕不適任教師等進入校園第六有關大院決議凍結本部體育署一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之業務費預算五百萬元一案已要求迷你足球"},{"start":2510.203,"end":2520.301,"text":"協會繳回補助款並停止補助未來將強化實地訪查以補助規範確保教育體育行政透明以補助經費應用合規"},{"start":2523.271,"end":2547.798,"text":"避免再次發生財務爭議第七有關代言決議凍結本部青年發展署經常支出之獎助獎補助費預算七千萬元一案依據促進青年公共參與以補助作業要點以補助540組青年自主團隊志工行動將加強查核及宣導受輔助"},{"start":2549.578,"end":2569.538,"text":"補助單位應遵守行政中立原則確保補助計畫符合公平公正公開原則8有關代驗決議凍結本部青年署青年發展工作預算1000萬元一案青年百億海外研夢計畫於14年1月推動提供超過600名"},{"start":2571.806,"end":2594.582,"text":"交流名額強化青年全球行動利益國際視野有關大院決議凍結本部所屬國家圖書館經常支出之業務費預算30%一案持續透過各項基本行政支出確保營運不中斷令博碩士論文等系統累計超過數億人次使用為全國學術"},{"start":2595.703,"end":2611.094,"text":"以教育研究提供穩定資源有關大宴結議凍結本部所屬國立公共資訊圖書館經常支出之業務費預算30%議案持續充實實體電子館長資源數位介業證以線上資源使用人次持續成長並舉辦大量閱讀活動以講座廣受民眾參與"},{"start":2626.377,"end":2652.722,"text":"第十一 有關代驗決議凍結本部所屬國家教育研究院經常支出之業務費預算30%議案執行超過85項研究計畫建置教育資源資料庫並培育超過5萬人次教育領導人才後職國家教育實力以上代驗所作決議凍結之預算僅為本部主管辦理各計畫項目之必要經費"},{"start":2654.002,"end":2680.674,"text":"且本部及所屬業務會動結數約13.5億元坦仁競速結動將有助推動教育政策及維持基本行政事務工作之執行懇請各位委員鼎力支持同意全部結動是本部各項教育事務得以順利推展年度施政目標得以有效達成最後"},{"start":2681.789,"end":2686.895,"text":"再次感謝各位也敬祝各位健康平安謝謝好 謝謝鄭部長口頭報告"},{"start":2692.455,"end":2715.796,"text":"那我們剛才的案子雖然我們書面報告案計22案有通過那提報院會那我想在場也可能還是會有委員待會提這個詢答的時候也可能會提出那我相信有這樣的交流大家對於相關的專案也可以更加的了解那我們現在進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘"},{"start":2716.997,"end":2746.337,"text":"列席委员咨询时间为4分钟发言登记截止时间为上午10点30分委员如有临时提案请于上午10点30分前提出并于本会委员万美玲委员咨询结束后进行解冻专案报告以及临时提案处理处理提案时若提案委员及联署委员均不在场原例不予处理首先请发言登记第一位柯志恩委员咨询"},{"start":2747.718,"end":2747.738,"text":"請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":2761.26,"end":2765.762,"text":"委員長部長好我們來看看這個解凍案在你的書面報告第十六案各項教育推廣我們是凍結了一千萬那這個項目可以說是包羅萬象涉及國際跟兩岸的交流那我想部長在五月中的時候對於這個兩岸的交流你的說法是不鼓勵前往道路交流甚至是禁止反對"},{"start":2783.831,"end":2784.972,"text":"教育交流活動基本上依法我是"},{"start":2804.741,"end":2819.02,"text":"不能反對的但是我也必須要講為什麼我不支持不贊成不鼓勵主要就是因為來自於陸委會已經在去年就頒布兩岸交流是一個陳設警戒的一個狀態"},{"start":2820.221,"end":2829.205,"text":"基於教育部我們要維護我們老師跟學生因為他的風險是增加的所以我才會表達說我們不鼓勵我們就來看看風險因為也有很多大學教授他不曉得教育部的底線在哪裡他甚至很怕誤踩地雷所以讓他們的補助款因為被扣除所以我們當然要在這個時候就要來問一下教育部的態度到底是如何其實我說實在的部長以前杜正勝部長大家都認為他很綠"},{"start":2848.294,"end":2875.9,"text":"可是呢他其实也没有在任何的言语公开谈话当中去禁止两岸的交流那现在情势当然不一样所以我真的还是要问一下部长你们现在有国际级两岸教育司如果部长不鼓励不乐见甚至要禁止的话我说实在的你真的是可以把两岸教育司这样名字好好改一下甚至对于两岸教育科的这部分思考一下还没有存留的价值因为目前为止已经是到了这样子的阶段"},{"start":2876.48,"end":2900.275,"text":"然后呢我还是要问一下啊部长之前因为在中山大学就是因为做的还不错部长你了解吗你们中山大学里面有45个姐妹学校但是呢有27个学校是跟中国大陆而且你所俗称的国防七子其中当中有三所北京理工北京航空还有哈尔滨工都是跟你们的中山大学是有姐妹校的"},{"start":2901.616,"end":2924.91,"text":"那部长我就想说了这也不是最近才发生从你当校长的时候呢你有觉得你们中山的这个关键技术有被窃取或者你觉得学生的权益跟彼此互相交流你觉得这些科研结果有因为这样子或甚至是你跟对岸地铁界面上有被统战的这样的疑虑吗你在当校长的时候你有这样的疑虑过吗"},{"start":2925.81,"end":2926.371,"text":"謝謝委員我想委員剛才也特別提到兩岸的關係確實"},{"start":2955.67,"end":2975.338,"text":"沒有這樣一個兩岸那麼緊張所以這個交流我們是當然是支持的還是支持啊沒有反對但是因為現在兩岸的一個情勢真的不同好那你是國防七子在你們中山大學放在這個地方你目前為止你認為這三個學校就你的立場來看的話你覺得還是需要保留嗎"},{"start":2976.328,"end":2983.294,"text":"我們當然在已經被禁止了而且我再問一下這個國防七子七所大學是誰選的是誰選的剛剛說有疑慮的是誰選的是大學裡面主管大學的教育部所選的還是陸委會還是國安高層這七間學校是誰選的有徵詢過你教育部長的意見嗎你還是高教出身有徵詢過大學校長的意見嗎"},{"start":3000.643,"end":3004.028,"text":"跟我們報告因為兩岸確實關係不妙沒有啦我說這七間學校誰選的啦我要跟我們報告我們很清楚我們許多的科技產業我們的好啦那這七間學校誰選的啦部長我下面還有很多問題這七間學校誰選的"},{"start":3013.885,"end":3026.948,"text":"跟委員報告是我選的你所選的然後你的這些都還是你中山大學其中有三個都是你中山大學的我也非常清楚因為兩岸的關係不一樣所以你認為在你當校長的時候你不認為這三間學校有任何統戰的可能中山大學學校目前為止還是愛高雄愛台灣有任何機會嗎那個時候還存留到現在你怎麼變成教育部長之後你就認為這三間學校跟你們弟姐姊妹學校裡面就有問題呢這個邏輯上很奇怪啊我還是跟委員報告兩岸的情勢不一樣了"},{"start":3042.751,"end":3060.42,"text":"所以這些學校你可以請中央大學把它撤下來了是不是還是姐妹交流可以但是當姐妹校可以 交流就不可以你給我們一個底線這是台大校長說的跟我們報告我們的交流就是基本上在學術上的交流但是只要不涉及我們影響我們的這個科技產業跟產業上的一些喜多的一些"},{"start":3065.583,"end":3093.572,"text":"这部长我们两个在这边已经耗了很多时间这台大校长所提到的大家都不晓得侯先生在哪里我介绍非常多大学校长的成绩共同论文发表可不可以技术合作可不可以如果我们在海外的会议当中有跟对岸的学者碰面可不可以师生互放可不可以有疑虑的大学可否一次公布还有很重要可不可以要求大学校长共同来讨论还有呢你说国家关键技术可能外流那你说国防妻子可能要讨论"},{"start":3094.372,"end":3109.428,"text":"北大 清大還有所謂的復旦其他學校交流有沒有這樣的風險疑似講清楚部長我不想花時間在這個地方請你把這個問題跟校長好好的溝通清楚可以嗎我們確實事實上北大 清大我們並沒有"},{"start":3110.469,"end":3123.195,"text":"這個反對交流我們只是希望在交流的過程機敏的包括我們產業的一些喜多的一些因為界限很難就像你當鄭英耀校長的時候你認為這三個學校沒有問題當你當鄭英耀部長的時候他就會被配為你的這個部分時空真的不一樣兩岸現在情勢跟我擔任校長的那一個時候是不一樣的兩岸的一個交流"},{"start":3137.102,"end":3141.164,"text":"我覺得兩岸的教育有什麼不一樣有些時候是因為為了某些的目的或什麼我同意你要很謹慎但是呢我還是強調這是大學校長所整理出來的請部長好好的為大學校長來做示意好不好好本來就是啊而且你看520總統演說是要收入生請問過去一年大家當成效如何"},{"start":3161.812,"end":3189.353,"text":"有吗这一年来陆生的成长目前我们一直保留开放态度但是对方不过来对这就是因为两岸之间连我们认为比较单纯的学术交流都被划上一些有政治性的考量其实没有信任就没有这部分我刚刚所提到校长所关切的问题请部长好好的回应否则会让很多校长很怕因为这样子删了他们的补助款这就很不好了接下来我们再来问一下"},{"start":3190.214,"end":3206.269,"text":"我們一般性的補助款影響學校還有影響對學生的照顧部長你有掌握全國各縣市因為一般性補助款被刪減完之後所造成的一個影響嗎窮孩子不能窮孩子不能苦孩子這不是口號部長有充分的了解嗎"},{"start":3207.697,"end":3220.525,"text":"我想這一個我的對教育因為委員跟我都一樣長期都是教育相關的專業我們也對小孩子的台灣沒有天然資源我們有的就是完全沒有問題所以我才說你對22個縣市因為這樣子我們對這一個不同縣市裡面的財政我們業務單位不管在體育署或者國教署都有充分掌握"},{"start":3230.652,"end":3236.936,"text":"我們也希望能夠給予一些較經費資源比較對 部長我不想在這個時候因為藍綠已經對於這個到底是誰造成這樣的結果反正都有不同的看法立足點都不一樣我也不想陷入這個到處這個什麼總預算被砍然後造成這些影響我只告訴部長一般性普算跟學生是非常的有關係的特別是很多縣市"},{"start":3255.209,"end":3283.413,"text":"对于低收入中低收入还有身障学生安全设备还有包括中央政府所配合支出的新设幼稚园偏乡双语实现都受到很大的影响我说实在的我也不晓得组织处审计教育部的预算的时候为什么会做成这样的一个决议在我们认为非常重要的时候他却把这个部分迫使地方政府必须要做这样的一个处理真的这个是对我们来说是一个非常非常"},{"start":3284.053,"end":3313.402,"text":"可惡的 當財務法通過的時候我們事實上委員現在所列的就是我們在因為我們知道學生跟學生權益有關的跟經濟弱勢有關的或者特殊這個學生這不能刪啊我們都沒有刪我們也沒有刪了我們也沒有刪了 百分之百按照原來的去補助只有這一些特殊狀況包含學位我們都完全按照當然要保護啊 這是學校的命脈基礎啊所以我們目前的做法跟委員所提的是一致的"},{"start":3313.942,"end":3341.262,"text":"我們只有那些 歸屬我們這些優先順序的我們才配合 因為在六三六議裡面我們不曉得我告訴你六三六議當中呢我覺得省局部在特別預算的時候真的是我只告訴你這些東西都是非常重要的非常重要 我們在交入法委員會裡面也完全是力保這樣的一個措施感謝委員提醒 但是委員的想法跟我們目前所做是一致的"},{"start":3341.442,"end":3356.931,"text":"我只希望這些預算都不要因為這些因素而受到非常大的影響預算有很多甚至中央預算我們還可以增電我們還可以追加不應該是用這個部分裡面框住罪的部分裡面然後讓我們這些小孩子受到一個很大的影響這是本席要不斷的補充的"},{"start":3357.631,"end":3372.647,"text":"我时间非常有限我最后来问一个运动的部分好不好来来来我们再问一个非常重要的一个运动的部分因为我们体育署动机了两千万但是我还是要强调你看告诉我们说要拼热奥运是亚运选手来当为教练但是呢部长"},{"start":3373.388,"end":3378.472,"text":"署長經費越編越少而且重要的是預算的質詢率非常差都沒有達到50%連112年我們所編的跟決算來說的話質詢率只有46.46而且最重要的是為了經費我們中央到時候都告訴說我們要給這些榮耀之後幫我們國家爭光彩的這些的運動學所當他們轉為運動教練的時候我們就用約聘的方法"},{"start":3398.405,"end":3414.171,"text":"中央不應該帶頭用冤聘的方法任何人怎麼可能而且很多機會很好的人比一些地方我知道有很多地方政府像地方政府他們為了要給這些選手他們用專聘的方法可是有非常多是用約聘中央帶頭來做這怎麼說任何一個運動選手當然不會願意你要發展運動技術怎麼可以如此還是縣市的計劃型的教練"},{"start":3426.803,"end":3432.186,"text":"然後呢 而且我告訴你全部啊 我說運動教練啊 我告訴你欸 署長我都還沒有再講 你們這邊的計畫裡面 你看110人 我先舉個例子來 署長先跟我講你們國家運動訓練中心推動精英計畫你們編列了奧運跟亞運選手退役後的教練工作計畫是7800元你的決算數 你們執行率不高 而且你們教育部告訴我 等一下我還要講"},{"start":3454.558,"end":3470.565,"text":"來我告訴你你們這一步告訴我說奧運跟亞運選手要領選100名肌肉運動選手事實上是每四年才用到這些每四年100你們寫法讓我們以為每一年有100包委員是奧運年70位亞運年30位你們四年才培訓100個"},{"start":3472.926,"end":3495.895,"text":"因為很多的很多的教練他還是當選手所以他保有那個資格但是他在幾年後真正退役了之後才會開始所以你是告訴我四年之後來說所以我還是要保持這個彈性我懂但是你們寫的寫法我真的覺得你們是順便這是我們承受非常多運動我們很多的運動教練都要跟我們來反應最重要一句話"},{"start":3497.035,"end":3525.289,"text":"榮耀之後你要給人家一個非常好的生活保障所以呢你成立之後呢我們還是很希望能夠增加我強調正式專業的運動教練所以呢不是用這個方法往前面我們前面的部分所以說是正式的運動教練包委員現在我們在國立的學校我們都有聘任但是問題是現在縣市的政府願不願意把員人四處來聘任現在主要聘任第一的是在縣市政府的部分"},{"start":3525.469,"end":3532.377,"text":"那你教育部完全把他甩過給縣市政府縣市政府還有經費上的問題啊縣市政府不願意的話這部分不是我們中央可以去主導所以你縣市政府不願意的話我們中央就沒有我們還是有去給予補助大家從計畫型先試行然後鼓勵他希望能轉"},{"start":3544.87,"end":3573.29,"text":"署長如果是這樣子的話一切都是經費給縣市政府然後我們就說這是縣市政府的責任但是我告訴你署長中央還是有這樣否則我們要體育署幹嘛拿到錢給縣市政府縣市政府不願去做這聘任我們就責任就有了嗎我們會努力謝謝好不好請在這邊這都是很多運動專利跟我們持足反應的這東西是非常重要的好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝柯志恩委員質詢官員請回座我們接下來有請郭玉琴委員質詢"},{"start":3579.673,"end":3581.615,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":3591.052,"end":3618.095,"text":"部長早安今天還是要來討論一下這個校園跟性品相關的一些議題喔那我想從之前這個成大成大的檢進教授2007年他就涉入多起的這個性品的一個事件喔那當時學校其實老師都知道但沒有依照程序來做這樣子的一個性品的一個程序的一個處理案發16年之後到了2023年才接獲檢舉那就是我們的監察院也提出了一些糾正喔"},{"start":3618.835,"end":3631.502,"text":"那成大才對這位所謂的簡信的郎師做出停職三年的處置那當然也要求教育部持續來監督成大檢討改進應該教育部知道這件事情對不對"},{"start":3632.571,"end":3659.908,"text":"好那接下來就是台大宿舍輔導員的性騷的一個事件喔那我想我來還原一下這件事情是從2022年的6月開始一直到10月中中這個一直在進行事喔那這一位女學生呢其實她是在2022年的9月向台大來提出這樣子的一個申訴希望台大來進行介入調查那她同時也訴諸所謂的這個法律的行動喔那麼由社工"},{"start":3660.408,"end":3684.294,"text":"以及老師的陪同到警方這邊來報警那在外部的部分呢也有在進行調查但是我們看到校方在2022年的4月份回應了這位學生說性騷是不成立的他說性騷不成立喔那當然學生當然就遞交了這個身負同時遞交身負之後學校再次的回應身負無理由"},{"start":3685.629,"end":3709.382,"text":"那我想這個台大的傲慢已經不是一次兩次了一直到後來其實監察委員他也說了這個整個所有的調查結果台大沒有承擔這個保護學生的一個責任那要來糾正這個台大要來改善學生再次重新申請調查但最後台大表示不再受理調查已經完畢"},{"start":3710.322,"end":3735.93,"text":"但是這位學生花了這麼久的一段時間到最後是用台大他怎麼樣來回應呢他說台大貿然如果將這位輔導員停職恐違反勞基法的疑慮不符合重啟的一個這樣子的一個法定的程序所以他不重啟調查那只是擔心說這位宿舍輔導員他的行為有一些預舉所以"},{"start":3736.946,"end":3760.295,"text":"建議要糾正就這樣而已喔就這樣輕輕放下而已喔好結論是這位宿舍的輔導員他只是從這個宿舍調離到另外一個宿舍但是這位女學生呢連外部跟遭跟所謂的強制都已經是確定的這是警方的這個目前的調查的結果但問題是台大是用這樣子的"},{"start":3761.495,"end":3772.225,"text":"這樣子的一個誇張的一個方式來對待這位女學生這位女學生目前是學業中斷身心受挫那接著下來又發生了四月份"},{"start":3773.858,"end":3796.08,"text":"葉秉成次長他在個人的臉書還有在其他的平台包含台大的這個所謂的交流網上面他PO出了不是一篇而是兩篇那麼他在平台上大家都知道他是一位具有高聲量的這樣子的一個應該是說臉書的擁有者那有30萬人在追蹤"},{"start":3797.642,"end":3827.022,"text":"她無意或有意之間那麼間接或直接之間透露了這位女學生的個人的資訊讓這位女同學深受極大的身心的創傷來向民進黨所有教文委員會的委員來求助我們在4月25號跟教育部提醒了第一次在5月2號跟教育部再進行了一次但後來教育部回應給我們的是這是屬於葉子她個人的行為"},{"start":3828.362,"end":3854.448,"text":"那葉刺的解釋是他出於關心但這過度的關心引起了所有在現場的效應包含上個禮拜他在中央大學的演講有學生直接質問他到底要不要撤文這中間經過了一個多月的時間我們要求他撤文他沒有撤我們要求他道歉他也沒有道歉好接下來他現在請假要來接受調查我現在想要問的是"},{"start":3855.428,"end":3872.138,"text":"為了要維護學生權益發聲這是我們教育部的責任但是這件事情非同小可難道我們教育部只能用大學自主這樣子的一個理由來回應台大這麼傲慢的態度嗎接下來台大的事情怎麼處理謝謝委員關心 確實我們對這個受害的同學是相當"},{"start":3881.752,"end":3884.634,"text":"部長現在怎麼處理台大這個部分他們要不要重啟調查"},{"start":3900.282,"end":3923.248,"text":"我們現在教育部的性評會也有組成調查小組整個從頭檢視台大的所有的處理過程那當然我也必須要跟委員報告確實台大身為一個台灣的一個這一個大學的一個標竿的一個引領的一個大學他沒有在一個校園的一個行政"},{"start":3924.148,"end":3948.236,"text":"治理校務的治理跟行政的一個品質裡面怎麼樣去真正關照到學生的一個受教權跟相關的權益所以基於教育部我們的立場台大一定要認真來檢討改善我想包含對學生的心理的支持我們期待這個認真的改善對於這件事情台大的處理的態度是不是應該要重新的被檢視甚至要重新的被檢討"},{"start":3949.229,"end":3972.592,"text":"我完全同意這個委員的一個這一個看法好那我們就看著教育部怎麼做接著下來教育部會怎麼做那第二個問題是因為業次他是處理所謂的高教的業務那我想高教的業務其實是非常繁重的到目前為止因為他要請假一個月這一個月當中我們的高教業務銜接有沒有問題會不會有任何的空窗"},{"start":3973.749,"end":3986.72,"text":"跟我們報告我當時希望他因為姓評會已經組成調查小組他理當為了讓調查能夠公正公開以能夠讓社會大眾知道教育部在這個的態度"},{"start":3989.282,"end":4007.807,"text":"內部在業務上也都做了一些分工做了一些調皮所以不會有任何空窗的狀況出現?不會有空窗 其實不會那另外最後我想要請教的是如果這個調查的結果出現我們的業次長的確也違反了所謂的性平法當中的一些規定請問教育部會不會護短?"},{"start":4009.895,"end":4031.448,"text":"我想有關政務官的一個任務我會跟院長來做這個詳細的這個整個性平處理的一個決議報告好那也就是不護短對不對是好那接下來第二個問題我想問的因為現今其實在這個學校的第一次現場我們介紹到很多很多校方老師對我們的求救的一個訊號他們覺得目前他們的處境"},{"start":4033.669,"end":4061.122,"text":"其實跟青獅之間的關係也面臨了極大的一個挑戰他們很擔心一句話一個處置就會被很多的家長可能放大來做檢視甚至會在很多的平台或者是在LINE的群組當中這位老師可能會被所謂的公審甚至還會被提告那我想這個是在第一現場我們面臨到了許多的老師對我們發出的一個求救的訊號"},{"start":4062.182,"end":4076.418,"text":"那麼當然之前某大安區的一個國小4月28號有一位老師他墜樓那當然這間學校的爭議還不只如此現在連同代理老師甄選的一個制度"},{"start":4077.719,"end":4092.806,"text":"據說也有家長要介入那其實這個關係是非常的扭曲喔那我想要請教這個部長的是針對教師因為正常的教學或者是管教如果受到所謂的家長過度的介入甚至濫訴的一個狀況我們有沒有一個統計的數據這個部分是不是真的有比例上升的情況那第二個問題是"},{"start":4100.789,"end":4106.29,"text":"教育部怎麼樣給實質在一線的教學的老師我們實質上給他精神上資源上的一個資源讓他能夠在心理的支持還有行政的資源作為保障老師他在第一教學現場因為這些老師他不是只有熱忱他也不是不願意付出他的熱忱他也不是不願意他的創新可是現在他步步為營啊深怕剛剛我講的一句話"},{"start":4125.894,"end":4139.943,"text":"可能就惹怒了很多的家長一句話一個動作可能真的就會讓很多的家長會去介入甚至有濫訴的一個狀況我們有沒有什麼樣的行政資源來支持這一些的老師他們在學校面臨的一個現狀"},{"start":4142.004,"end":4159.231,"text":"謝謝委員關心老師的一個確實我也跟委員報告我去年上來我就已經發現我們因為隨著少子化家長對小孩子的一個教育這個我們都懂每個孩子都是關注嘛但是也因為這樣造成校安事件"},{"start":4160.752,"end":4182.174,"text":"這一個相對的數量就多了因為有許多的彼此之間的信任度不夠所以我們現在從國教署我也特別說台灣這些人才培育我們在許多的國際評比都是名列前三名最差不會超過第五名也就是說我們人才培育是好的這主要是我們中小學老師的一些貢獻"},{"start":4183.235,"end":4201.378,"text":"那我們應該對我也提醒說我們除了鼓勵家長跟青獅的一個合作裡面對老師有更多的信任我們也希望怎麼樣把中小學老師那麼好的一個教學能夠在許多的網路平台包括許多的教學青獅的座談分享"},{"start":4202.199,"end":4228.038,"text":"教師怎麼樣這些好的老師怎麼樣我們都知道其實孩子的行為跟價值觀第一個第一站其實應該是家庭教育但是有很多的家庭教育當中其實那個是第一的現場但在第一現場失衡失靈的一個狀況到了第二現場其實就是老師但老師要承受了很大的一個壓力的同時我們怎麼給他一個行政資源上的"},{"start":4229.098,"end":4248.228,"text":"這個支持或者是我們在整個所有的心理上的支持甚至法律上的支持讓他不要孤單一個人在面對所謂的這個親師之間的關係的一個緊張謝謝委員提醒事實上那是都一直是我們現在的一個重點是包含我們也希望說從這個社會情緒裡邊能夠家長真人能夠怎麼樣"},{"start":4251.79,"end":4273.913,"text":"社區來協助學校那另外還有一個學校裡面除了我們委員我們答應過去支持的這個學生舞蹈法以外我們也希望校安校事人員也能夠在人力上也能夠有所增加另外我想提醒就是家庭教育法其實我們可以再來做更精進的一個研議喔從家庭教育的宣導性我們把它"},{"start":4274.534,"end":4294.567,"text":"把他可以轉成所謂的義務性我們讓第一線就是在第一個現場的家庭教育先讓他讓學生能夠到學校之後面對老師的第二現場能夠更有的資源那我覺得親師生的關係不能失衡也不能讓真的有熱忱想要教學的這樣子的老師他們被卡在所謂的這個縫隙當中其實他們的面臨的壓力是很大的"},{"start":4304.494,"end":4327.371,"text":"那我們確實在終身式家庭教育中心各縣市也在做這一件事情那我們繼續加油因為時間關係最後一個問題我短短的問就是關於載具進入校園就是校園之後要怎麼樣來處理的這個部分我們講到這個高中的部分就是他的學生代表不能低於全體的人數的這個三分之一"},{"start":4327.571,"end":4348.057,"text":"但是三分之二其實它還是來自所謂的師長跟老師我們目前在公告這一個學生代表確實也朝委員的一個建議是這個之前沒有明文規定三分之一原來是授權各校裡面去定比例但它還是三分之一還是少數但真的能夠納入他們的聲音嗎我們目前是有把這一個學生代表"},{"start":4351.438,"end":4377.147,"text":"納入三分之一他至少要三分之一那我們最快什麼時候要跟學生坐下來是六月一號嗎我們是六月一號有實體跟線上同步好那我們就現場看怎麼樣把學生的聲音真的納入我們的政策當中這就是我們在希望跟學生更積極的不要讓我們的初衷不要讓我們的當初的好意跟初衷其實因為這樣子政策的太過粗暴的宣布然後詆毀了這樣子的一個這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":4379.028,"end":4392.012,"text":"教育部的立場跟委員所想的都是一致的好那我們教育部加油謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝郭玉琴委員質詢部長請回座接下來有請劉書斌委員質詢有請鄭部長您先喝水沒關係"},{"start":4407.927,"end":4408.047,"text":"請鄭部長備詞詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":4413.507,"end":4438.179,"text":"部長好我們上個禮拜已經知道的是美國總統他下令對哈佛的國外的學生的招收就下了一個禁令當然我們目前有影響大概到的是52位的學生現在今天最新的消息我們先看下一頁就是說美國國務院他現在下令對外管就是說停止"},{"start":4438.979,"end":4443.022,"text":"對於學生簽證的這樣一個面談那準備對這些學生們對他的社群媒體做一個審查這個做一個了解來決定他是否能夠進入到美國的一個校園那現在的這個影響的人數我查了一下這樣的資訊就是從我52人現在變成到2020年到現在為止大概每年大概是有3000多到6000的這樣的人數是台灣的新生要到美國去求學啦那面對這樣的問題的時候"},{"start":4469.299,"end":4475.844,"text":"教育部這邊有沒有什麼樣有沒有掌握到形勢有沒有什麼樣的一個協助的一個方向請問部長跟委員報告我們現在也跟AIT在這個研議看怎麼樣來協助台灣的一個學生能夠順利到美國繼續能夠這個築他的夢然後也能夠延他的夢那當然"},{"start":4496.358,"end":4516.008,"text":"先前的這個哈佛大學這52位的學生我們駐外館也都給以這個訊息充分掌握然後也在台灣裡邊如果他有需要我們現在大概有兩個方式不是啊我現在重點是不在哈佛的現在最新的消息是有新生他們現在準備到美國去有關這個他暫停學生的簽證面談我們這個會我們現在正在積極跟AIT我們台灣這個AIT裡邊做一些"},{"start":4525.333,"end":4528.937,"text":"這個溝通演繹看有怎麼樣能夠確保我們台灣的一個學生在這一個學習生涯裡邊能夠順利沿它我想這部分不只是要透過AIT可能要到一個外交層次學術的交流方面去進行我們國際私下目前已經有在做"},{"start":4543.012,"end":4564.491,"text":"但是另外一部分的是現在包括的是日本韓國跟其他的像我們旁邊的香港還有澳門他們都已經針對說有這種對於他們被哈佛的可能就不能再交收這部分或是像更大的部分在說現在因為川普才剛剛就任才不知道幾個月嘛對不對這未來可能四年都是一個有一個波動的不穩定的狀況有沒有採取說針對不到"},{"start":4568.354,"end":4592.819,"text":"就是到美國去有這樣子的一個優惠但是對我們有相對優勢的一些東南亞國家等等的然後他們對才想說也是對優秀的這個學子來做招生的這樣子一個一個準備呢或方向跟我們報告其實我們剛才我要跟委員報告的就是我們除了對學生的一個自己本國生的一個安置我們也希望我們台灣的這些頂尖大學能夠主動的去能夠"},{"start":4594.059,"end":4610.12,"text":"宣告歡迎來到台灣甚至以哈佛為例我們鼓勵台大清大等這些頂尖大學能夠跟哈佛看透過什麼樣方式在現階段因為許多學生包括老師的教學能夠建立一個雙連學位能夠在"},{"start":4611.241,"end":4627.131,"text":"政策還沒改這個還沒改變之前他能夠能夠接到我們台灣來那另外也跟委員報告其實當我們看到這一個美國川普政府在跟相關的一些長春"},{"start":4628.752,"end":4651.45,"text":"騰學校有許多的一些這個校務治理上的一些學生的限制包含老師我們已經為什麼上一次在我們這個夜市場特別提到在這邊跟我們報告的就是兩百億裡面我們事實上也希望這些美國長春日騰學校的教授能夠來到台灣來任教"},{"start":4652.51,"end":4668.889,"text":"所以你們有兩百億就是這邊的投資就對了這裡邊我們事實上有一部分有一半以上是希望能夠延攬國際一流的學者來加入我們台灣的高等教育這樣子非常好希望看到有教育部有做這樣的準備這樣子我們繼續往下一個議題來看就是在"},{"start":4673.072,"end":4683.175,"text":"剛才已經通算是說解凍的部分在書面報告的第三案對於新南向產學國際專班這一部分我還是有些問題想要詢問在於說在這個來台就學的辦法當中他說不得委由校外的機構法人團體來做辦理"},{"start":4690.197,"end":4707.267,"text":"那這些當然是你們想要大力的去打擊包括的是像有些仲介的這一部分他包括是說有些學校有跟仲介有合作那這些部分有沒有關於這個相關的對學生學校跟這個仲介有合作的這個學校的這樣的一個數字跟名單就說他們是跟仲介去招生的不是自己到外國去招生的這部分"},{"start":4716.594,"end":4740.525,"text":"跟委員報告因為確實如果委託特定的仲介團體來我們事實上是違反我們相關規定那你們有去吵到我們目前也有學校就因為這樣我們就把這個班就停止他招生那有哪些學校你不方便我想這一個那就私下公布好不好私下私下來跟委員報告因為這是我們可以繼續再追蹤下去我進來以後就特別事實上這教育部過去就一直在做"},{"start":4741.565,"end":4756.373,"text":"我在這邊為了這個產學產系專班我知道你花了很多的時間我們有這個國教署跟計時師聯合去對我看到你的這個努力啦但是我覺得還是有些部分我還透過這次的解凍報告當中我來做一下詢問"},{"start":4757.694,"end":4766.417,"text":"你們在報告當中有說要去補助學校對於聘任的熟悉學生國語語文的專責人員要聘這些人員但是你們費用是怎麼樣整體預算是怎麼樣規劃的對在這些部分"},{"start":4775.319,"end":4794.4,"text":"因為你沒有預算下去你說人員的話可能是一個空話是 跟委員報告我們國際專修部的學生第一年就是來台灣學華語我們希望他能夠華語至少要到A2以上所以我們補助學校一個學生用五萬元的華語訓練的費用來提供給我們的學校"},{"start":4796.943,"end":4803.705,"text":"把這些學生華語的能力一定要達到第一年結束一定要達到A度讓教師去教他就對了讓華語教師去教這些學生是要具有華語教師能力的人才可以教我就知道這部分你說一個人是五萬元那非常好"},{"start":4815.509,"end":4829.053,"text":"那第二部分就是說我們目前的一個數據大概各個學校在第一年的華語教育大概通過率大概有85%如果他沒有辦法達到我們就請他直接這個回他的一個科學回國那第二個部分就是說因為我在做這個"},{"start":4834.555,"end":4845.159,"text":"質詢的時候有發現到這是一個跨部會的包括的是還有衛福部嘛還包括的是勞動部嘛甚至還包括有經濟部這些部分那你們的跨部會有這個合作機制怎麼樣去讓這個流財的這個計畫這邊能夠怎麼協調跟分工啊"},{"start":4853.988,"end":4856.19,"text":"跟委員報告在行政院底下我們有一個擴大招收外國學生這樣的一個跨部會的會議那裡面就剛剛有提到我們這幾個部會做分工做分工以經濟部來講他們當然是針對後續廠商要提供一些實習的場域"},{"start":4874.807,"end":4881.691,"text":"那勞動部當然就是來提供我們如何保障這些學生實習跟攻讀的一些權益那教育部的部分就是針對如何去海外去延攬這一些學生來台灣就學所以其實部會都有在做這樣的一個會議那這個會議的主召開是由我們國發會來做各部會的一個協調會議以上好 謝謝"},{"start":4902.122,"end":4926.171,"text":"那另外一部分就是說學生他如果留台他畢業之後留台的工作或返回母國作為我國台商之用有沒有相關的績效的這樣的機制去做這個部分我想應該留下來這邊能不能提供給本辦公室是好 跟委員報告新南向產專有我們的留台率還蠻高的這些詳細的數字會後我再提供給委員好 謝謝市長 謝謝署長"},{"start":4929.452,"end":4933.754,"text":"那下面另外一個問題我們今天要針對到的是討論案的第三案就關於營養午餐的這個解凍專案報告這部分那這邊也許好 那就我看到的是在這裡呢看到的是在3月20號的時候那我有詢問群打那個時候是廖萬這個次長他有回復到這部分就是說他未來呢重點是要再找地方政府來協商嘛那我們也知道是財政收支劃分法也是通過了等等的那我想請問一下"},{"start":4958.584,"end":4962.007,"text":"那目前有沒有跟地方政府協商,進行到什麼狀況?"},{"start":4964.093,"end":4991.312,"text":"跟委員報告當裁判法的一個方向定案以後我們就會找地方政府來協商但事實上目前在有關營養午餐的部分因為來自於各地方這個政府他們對營養午餐的看法仍舊沒有共識所以我們在這個部分中央除了這個有定有一些規範以外給予經費支持補助以外那目前"},{"start":5016.465,"end":5041.303,"text":"你們說的那個裁劃法的部分是指的是等到在釋憲在結束後嗎還是說怎麼樣裁劃法是等到釋憲結果才出現才會決定嗎教育部還是一個行政院一個團隊整體行政院裡面到最後的一個政策決定以後我們才能夠有一個依循好把這一些整個資源裡面看怎麼樣去重新做一些調整分配所以包括你們布版的這個"},{"start":5043.659,"end":5066.748,"text":"營養午餐或是說 上次你們去年的時候有一個高級中等以下學校的午餐及營養消費條例這個方向還是會延遲到說會把它擴升到高中就是可以進入到營養午餐的供應對象了是嗎還是往這個方向去推 讓行政院版的會出現嗎目前我們當然因為這個營養午餐中小學還是屬於地方自治的一個權限裡面"},{"start":5067.808,"end":5092.212,"text":"那當然各地方縣市政府他對營養午餐的一個提供他們可能有不同的一個教育階段有不同的一些看法所以這個部分我們目前還是以這個尊重地方他因為財政的一個財政的一個狀況也都不太一樣所以是不是要供餐到高中職這我想這個我們還是保留尊重這個地方的一個"},{"start":5092.812,"end":5113.173,"text":"因為你們的布板送到行政院的事實上就已經是高級中學現在說可能因為財化法還有地方的需求等等有時候我們在條例上當然會把它因為有一些地方確實有做高中職並不是每一個縣市所以我們在法源上是不是讓它有依據但是各地方自主"},{"start":5113.513,"end":5139.851,"text":"本於他的財政本於他對人才培育的一些想像那我想這個部分我們保留地方的這個尊重地方的一個自治好謝謝那我最重要還是把我們現在民眾黨的一個部分的這個需求跟大家說明一下就是說要把這個權責希望這個已經也變成教育部在跟地方協商的時候一個重點當然是說他公餐要有這個權責的一個明確然後呢他的品質食品的部分要安全要保障"},{"start":5140.171,"end":5157.738,"text":"食農教育也是應該要有 弱勢的部分也要保障跟偏鄉的這邊 監督跟機力機師都要具備好那就希望說往這個方向去進行好謝謝委員 我們目前的做法就跟委員的這一個主張是一致的好 OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 我們謝謝劉淑冰委員的發言 請部長請回"},{"start":5167.881,"end":5191.414,"text":"我們下一位由我們葛如軍委員來做發言質詢好 謝謝代理主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長好 有請部長"},{"start":5198.464,"end":5209.136,"text":"委員好部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎 您有申請持用中國大陸居住證嗎跟委員報告 我應該沒有應該沒有"},{"start":5220.086,"end":5241.408,"text":"再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎我對國家一定是忠誠 無庸置疑但是您應該沒有申領持用中國大陸居住證不太確定是嗎我再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎沒有"},{"start":5243.663,"end":5269.67,"text":"我再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎?您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎?謝謝委員 我對國家絕對是忠誠的我也沒有這一個在中國的任何的一個居住跟這一個身份證再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎?您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎?"},{"start":5272.759,"end":5300.335,"text":"跟委員報告我知道委員大概認為我們第一部長請您回答您是不是忠誠有沒有申領持用我的立場已經跟委員報告過我絕對是忠誠無庸置疑再問一次部長請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎我對國家是忠誠的也沒有申請居住證"},{"start":5301.121,"end":5307.903,"text":"好 再問一次 部長 請問您對國家忠誠嗎您有申領持用中國大陸居住證嗎跟委員報告 我對國家絕對是忠誠的也沒有申請中國急留證部長 經過七次的詢問 請問您對國家的忠誠度有沒有變高有變高嗎 同樣的問題問七次"},{"start":5330.168,"end":5334.21,"text":"您感覺如何?公文報告教育部沒有調查其次沒有調查什麼?就是說對我們第一線上的這些國立的這個學校這個主管或者這個相關人員老師的一個調查我們只是把這個陸委會的這個資訊轉發給這個第一線上各縣市政府"},{"start":5359.15,"end":5378.366,"text":"所以轉發就不是調查在這個短話裡邊我們當然中央有政策希望在整個讓老師們能夠有一個清楚的去重新再審視他到底有沒有這樣的一個部長您這樣的回答我真的不禁要問您是不是對陸委會忠誠沒有我想我們是你對陸委會忠誠嗎我對國家工程陸委會是為了"},{"start":5386.829,"end":5414.38,"text":"陸委會是中央的一個部會所以有幾多跨部會的政策的合作當然我們依法行政部長您剛剛幾次的問答裡面有很多次的答案其實都不一樣啦我想我們可能還要問第八次第九次嗎為了清查軍公教是不是持有中國大陸身份證戶籍或相關證件中央各部會頻繁發文據了解有學校收到七份來自不同機關的公文"},{"start":5415.2,"end":5429.451,"text":"甚至有基層教師簽了七次竊結書啊拒絕書啊本席光是台在台上詢問您同樣的問題老實說啊都有一點覺得對您不太尊重"},{"start":5430.191,"end":5445.506,"text":"台下的眾人也感到荒謬可笑大家甚至笑出聲的是您第一次都還搞不清楚您到底有沒有中國大陸居住證面對各個部會的疲勞轟炸所有的基層教師有非常多人疲於奔命他們笑得出來嗎"},{"start":5446.807,"end":5468.125,"text":"教育部口口聲聲要說行政減量結果呢 現在完全不尊重專業變成施政提款機變成對其他部會忠誠 事實上教育部絕對沒有 絕對是減少行政您剛剛有說您有轉文啊 這些同仁不需要回覆嗎不是說要去填寫嗎"},{"start":5470.627,"end":5490.317,"text":"陸委會 我們透過陸委會的這個轉文也只有兩次第一次就是這個全面調查那第二次只是在提醒我們的這些第一線上的老師你是不是已經填答了 填答就不需要再不需要再恢復我給你時間啦 我剛剛沒有請你發言啦但是我要問你啦"},{"start":5494.623,"end":5522.325,"text":"現在老師們收到這麼多次的詢問老師的權益 老師的時間是不是教育部應該關心的當然是嘛那他們收到了七四拒絕書跟教育部有沒有關啊你說 裡面只有兩次跟我有關您這樣態度對嗎跟委員報告 我們當然感受有沒有關係這七四跟你們有沒有關係嘛你回答我 有沒有關係跟他解釋我都通過了如果這一個"},{"start":5523.246,"end":5528.479,"text":"是跨部會裡面造成第一線上老師的工作的負擔行政的干擾我想我們會來了解所以部長請看"},{"start":5534.595,"end":5555.178,"text":"這個螢幕裡的公文你覺得熟悉嗎?這就是你們函轉行政人事總署轉至陸委會的公文內容要求 我真的不知道部長你有沒有看過啊要求公務員 各機關公務員不論平假日赴中國大陸 均應於赴陸前"},{"start":5563.024,"end":5572.53,"text":"請問部長我們要依法行政公立各級學校教育人員當中有哪些具有公務員的身份依規定要在賦入前提出申請 您知不知道"},{"start":5576.568,"end":5593.62,"text":"賦入前要上這個登錄平台去登錄哪些人要啊哪些人要您知道嗎我目前來講這裡是全部公務員均需喔平日假日喔不分任何理由喔全部要許可誰誰需要公務員報告就是因為"},{"start":5595.041,"end":5610.964,"text":"現在兩岸是處於比較緊張的一個狀態對不起 部長我們要依法行政你要就依法法令是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣現在不是你覺得緊張你覺得不一樣就可以做這是你們轉文的陸委會的資訊請您看清楚第三點如果沒有兼任行政職務者無需依照許可辦法做申請或報准"},{"start":5624.505,"end":5653.67,"text":"你這份全部一竿子打盡是什麼意思跟委員報告這個陸委會這個喊只是希望說我們在我們在復錄的時候能夠依照規定來申請你這就違反他自己的規定嘛你們怎麼沒有保護好教師回到學校他的一個拆請規定那剛剛委員剛剛也有說明就是老師在兼任行政職的部分是有公務員服務法的一個適用我在這裡講的第三點是沒有的"},{"start":5656.507,"end":5680.803,"text":"老師是不是要去大陸地區這個部分要回到學校的一個採請規定我們只針對於這裡白紙黑字寫了內監行政職務者不需要啊現在是怎麼樣我們兩岸關係很緊張閱讀中文都有問題了嗎所以我們在公文上面並沒有針對於所以現在是你現在直接講就是回歸學校各自學校辦理"},{"start":5682.232,"end":5699.252,"text":"我必須告訴各位我們現在這樣的做法已經逾越陸委會自己的台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例所規範的範圍有侵害人民隱私權甚至違反憲法保障人民居住及遷徙自由的可能請問部長啊"},{"start":5702.591,"end":5720.601,"text":"你們自己知不知道你們在做這件事啊這件事情你們剛剛說拆形系統登錄其實有很多公立學校在實際執行上面是有困難的因為有分有兼行政職沒有兼行政職我請問教育部有沒有向陸委會反映"},{"start":5729.09,"end":5745.18,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分還是我剛剛有強調就是說在學校端在學校端他針對出國包括復入這個部分是回到學校他自行的一個規範那我們只針對就是你兼行政職的部分才有"},{"start":5746.101,"end":5761.727,"text":"才有這個服務法的適用請問你這份公文哪裡有分兼行政職沒有兼行政職所以我們在上面並沒有去去寫的寫名嘛所以回到猜情讓我問是不是有老師沒有行政職也收到你們有沒有了解啊"},{"start":5767.284,"end":5779.469,"text":"我剛剛問了教師是不是教育部要管的範圍學校是不是教育部要關心的範圍你們現在轉一個文就不關你們的事了嗎好沒有關係部長現在在旁邊思考這個問題"},{"start":5788.684,"end":5809.1,"text":"陸委會我要幫他們講話啦陸委會可能不知道學校行政上的實務困難啦人事行政總署可能也不清楚教育部會不知道嗎還在裝傻還在裝睡剛剛真的時間是沒有暫停的喔畫面也沒有停格喔我們的教育部長是完全停滯的喔"},{"start":5810.928,"end":5827.368,"text":"事實上這樣真的會扼殺我們的教育人員的權益追究起來看起來根本就是行政怠惰實際上甚至會讓特定的人會覺得這是一種思想清洗的活動嗎我們教育部變成思想教育部了嗎"},{"start":5828.749,"end":5849.325,"text":"我想我再問一次部長沒有兼任行政職的教育人員他們沒有向主管機關或服務機關申請許可或報准賦入的義務教育部憑什麼法條以差型系統為由要求沒有兼行任職的教育人員要一體試用啊他們都收到通知啦他們到底要還是不要如果學校自己要求"},{"start":5855.884,"end":5865.35,"text":"衛軍行政職的人也要填表也要同意你們同意這個做法嗎根據第三第三條裡面它是這一個"},{"start":5867.796,"end":5885.831,"text":"兼行政的當然一定要報准但沒有兼行政的就是依學校相關的一個規定來做來做這一個處理所以老實說那現在教育部的態度到底是什麼我想這一個部分我們會再跟陸委會主動來協調"},{"start":5887.512,"end":5902.581,"text":"好啦 謝謝教育部 以上要求教育部要幫我們做到本席要求教育部就上述我們今天所詢問的事項你們真的應該要發函 像如果會表達校方實務上的困難能不能一個月內將辦理情形書面提供給本席"},{"start":5904.627,"end":5925.734,"text":"好 謝謝不好意思 我爭取一點點時間這個AI是大事啦但是我想要問一下我們現在台灣的AI人才的培訓跟人才的培育這麼厚一本的書面解凍報告對AI人才培育的回覆只有在319頁181個字"},{"start":5929.793,"end":5955.375,"text":"部長你認為這樣子足夠嗎你覺得這樣我們能夠培育足夠的嗎我直接給你看數字從110年到112年AI陸續成長我們的人才竟然是減少我們是怎麼樣我們這跟全世界平行時空嗎我們不是AI內閣嗎如果今年又再減少我們怎麼辦"},{"start":5956.946,"end":5984.496,"text":"現在全世界都有AI缺乏人才的問題啊美國啊1月份專門做了AI Talent Report人工智慧的人才報告他們說供不應求啊他們非常努力他們用三種方式增加第一個增加本地訓練第二個增加在國外受訓的減少本地生的流出第三個增加基地措施"},{"start":5985.782,"end":6005.087,"text":"我現在要問部長 近期川普有國際生禁令 全球都在搶人中港澳各地大學開綠色通道 日本文部科學省直接表示他們要收這些學生 我們今天早上又收到消息"},{"start":6006.307,"end":6013.369,"text":"學生簽證的面談可能會受到影響結果部長您剛剛在我們委員質詢的時候你說我們有雙簾學位 歡迎各個學校去洽談這不是應該用專案嗎這不是應該用教育部的高度嗎我們看到日本文部科學省我們看到中港澳在搶人部長有沒有做法"},{"start":6029.121,"end":6050.648,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在第一個時間我相信還有幾多國家剛才委員所提到的我為什麼在高等教育那邊200億裡面有一半以上我就是當時看到川普在對Columbia的一些經費上的一些可能會縮減的時候我們已經就想到說能不能"},{"start":6052.038,"end":6072.803,"text":"讓這些人才 所以我要跟委員報告的是我想我們這個部分 我們態度是積極的那當然許多 因為在這個場域我也盡量讓委員能夠給我們一些意見之外兩個問題 有沒有發新聞稿 日本就直接發新聞稿啊第二 有沒有專案 人家有沒有綠色通道 有沒有做我們現在事實上是有 還沒嘛"},{"start":6077.85,"end":6101.107,"text":"就是還沒嘛 是不是還沒跟委員報告其實在第一時間針對這些外國學生要來台就讀的意願我們有跟我們的大學已經傳達相關的訊息那學校也表達他們願意來招收這些外國學生好 謝謝這個高度要做出來同時我們也有學生是不是有權益受到影響我們賴清德總統說拖中入北啊"},{"start":6102.399,"end":6113.37,"text":"結果現在北部給你入啊那哈佛的學生可能進不去可能還有更多的學生權益受到影響啊老實說我一直都覺得我們要廣結善緣部長你回應一下我們有沒有學生受到影響接下來怎麼處理"},{"start":6116.318,"end":6132.152,"text":"所以剛才跟委員報告我們初步上以哈佛來講是有52位學生包含已經申請甚至繳了這個住宿都已經找好這個接下來今天早上的新聞有沒有收到啊教育部同仁有給你吧是"},{"start":6133.713,"end":6157.889,"text":"這個學生圈還不只哈佛啊 是這個影響範圍是不是會擴大 是所以我跟委員報告我們就是說我們也跟AIT在溝通協調這一方面我們要去照顧到我們台灣的這個留學生的權益部長 少花一點時間做政治思想的這些清洗我想我們各部會都非常負責教育部有更多更重要任財培育的事情要做"},{"start":6159.709,"end":6184.736,"text":"這個思想控制我想委員這樣講對我是不公平的我沒有這樣說 我說少做一些多做一點對的事情我從來不做政治的一個思想的一個控制我只很清楚來自一個教育專業我服從教育基本法怎麼樣在人才培育讓我們的新世代年輕人對國家有多一份的一個喜愛好 我最後爭取幾秒鐘"},{"start":6187.077,"end":6192.701,"text":"部長你知不知道速發部在做專案報告推估AI人才需求你知不知道這份報告"},{"start":6196.603,"end":6206.086,"text":"你不是說你要推展這個人才嗎 你要依法啊也感謝委員 委員本身也是這一個專業 對不對那我們一上來的時候因為這一個AI人才產業確實需求恐極所以為什麼我們開始有一個大的一個來自於線上的一個AI課程的一個課程的規劃我想這一個方向目標都是一樣部長 我要告訴你的是你們現在正在被AI內閣的所有其他部位孤立的可能喔"},{"start":6227.106,"end":6239.45,"text":"國科會經濟部都有相關的計畫跟你們有關的人才攻擊完全沒有問過你們跟AI人才培育有關的東西涉及之部會空白啊為什麼呢"},{"start":6243.82,"end":6261.429,"text":"因為大家看到你們的都是這些國防妻子啊禁止婦入交流啊是不是連其他部會都在誤會你們的工作啦老實說這樣真的不好所以我希望部長我們希望跟各個部會更增強聯繫跟學校增強聯繫要幫老師跟學校來維護權益這是教育部以及教育部部長您的工作我最後提醒我們的學生版AI手冊"},{"start":6273.455,"end":6277.8,"text":"從我去年2月1號上任以來到現在 沒看到"},{"start":6278.897,"end":6306.026,"text":"什麼時候推出這是我最後一個問題謝謝委員的關心那這個AI手冊的一個部分學生版對是我們在年底會有出版出來然後昨天已經開完專家對於這整個手冊架構的一個諮詢會所以我們會盡快在年底把出版處理出來好謝謝委員謝謝希望教育部可以硬起來真的好好的來做好教育還有教育部長分內應該做的事我們大家一起來努力謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6309.346,"end":6337.107,"text":"好我們謝謝各位委員的發言有請部長請回座我們下一位葉元之委員質詢發言麻煩請教育部長謝謝好有請教育部部長謝謝"},{"start":6344.645,"end":6360.276,"text":"部長好前兩天台北市長蔣萬安有公開的呼籲一件事情說台北市已經近三年有代理教室荒很多學校六招七招找不到人然後有的學校甚至要招四十五次才招到代理老師"},{"start":6361.229,"end":6374.357,"text":"那這個部分我有跟新北市有一些學校有詢問過確實現在大家要招代理教師都遇到相當困難有的也是要招好幾次才有那我不知道部長有沒有看到這樣的現象"},{"start":6376.234,"end":6391.382,"text":"這一個確實我非常清楚台北市特別在我們現在的科技產業一枝獨秀的時候我們老師的報酬各方面確實他面臨了一個在延展人才上有更大的挑戰原因是什麼不是只有台北市喔"},{"start":6395.083,"end":6408.192,"text":"我剛講說台北市有一些學校也一樣您的了解為什麼會出現這個狀況台北市在整個剛才委員也特別提到了這個生活物價各方面的它確實調整得很好物價是其中一個因素啦還有沒有其他因素"},{"start":6411.431,"end":6436.556,"text":"沒有 部長 你那一個直轄市 台北市長都公開喊話了然後部長都沒有看到台北市我知道 部長平常都在忙什麼啊這一個市長特別提到說 代理教師三年的限制好 那除了這個之外呢你有沒有去跟學校了解一下這個學校有沒有遇到這個狀況 大致的原因是什麼你有沒有稍微去了解一下我是不是請這個市長沒關係啦 部長 我來講啦"},{"start":6439.321,"end":6463.935,"text":"你稍微去每個學校去問一下就會知道了有一個學校的回饋啦譬如說現在校園的環境到底對老師來說是不是夠友善我覺得這也是其中一個問題因為現在有的小朋友像我知道有的學校前一段時間才發生的學生對老師罵三字經五字經然後還吐口水那老師也不知道怎麼辦了因為如果說老師"},{"start":6465.478,"end":6491.232,"text":"假設就是比較有一些反應回應稍微激烈一點很可能就會被告被告就要進入校事會議校事會議也許要進行大概兩個月左右最後結果或許說有可能會還老師清白但是這兩個月的煎熬其實對老師來說也是心理上一個很大的負擔就是說校園第一個就是校園對老師是否夠友善那不知道這個部分部長有什麼看法嗎"},{"start":6493.517,"end":6504.802,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們大概可以從兩個面向來看第一個也感謝大苑通過了這個學生舞蹈我們希望更積極的去協助學生在整個發展過程裡邊能夠有一個更好的一個發展這對老師來講是有一個他能夠專心這個教學的一個穩定力量第二個"},{"start":6513.126,"end":6525.353,"text":"市長不要答非所問啦我講的是說一個學校對老師我在思考這個問題跟委員報告我是從系統性在思考所以委員過去也關心的就是學務的工作校安的事件我們確實對老師對學校確實造成了一些困擾"},{"start":6530.055,"end":6546.312,"text":"壓力也比較相對大這也是造成老師不願意到學校等於說有專業的人才他不願意投入到教師的工作所以我們現在從今年開始我們也事實上也開始在補助地方徵聘這一些所謂的"},{"start":6547.253,"end":6573.239,"text":"校務的一些行政人力希望能夠這個我等一下會跟你討論第一個我覺得我們要怎麼樣去提高就是校園對老師友善這一塊我覺得我認為還是要對症下藥不是說不是說好像有什麼系統性用講一個那麼大的方向但針對具體的狀況卻沒有一個方案出來我順便問一下9月28號教師節今年來得及放假嗎部長"},{"start":6578.356,"end":6581.157,"text":"我想這個放假我們就按照這個來得及嗎法定規定可以這個放假我們當然就我一個建議好不好我覺得9月28號如果有放假的話可不可以擴大的來"},{"start":6595.321,"end":6617.738,"text":"辦理一些敬師傾師的活動好不好讓大家就是找回那種尊師重道的那種價值非常感謝委員提醒我想這是很有價值的一個活動讓大家要尊重老師第二個代理教師慌我問到的還有一個狀況很多代理教師很擔心"},{"start":6619.491,"end":6634.891,"text":"進到學校以後就馬上就要接行政職那這個部分我上次在總質詢的時候也有跟部長討論過因為行政職現在正式老師很多不願意接嘛所以通常行政職一開圈都是找那種剛考進學校的正式教師去接"},{"start":6635.785,"end":6658.766,"text":"那有的正式教師如果說也不夠的話就找代理老師上次有跟普朗說會衍生兩個問題第一個正式老師剛考進去他本來是想要 譬如說他是數學老師正準備要教數學結果跟大家講說你數學先不用教你去兼行政那這是對老師教學上或者學生受教權我覺得也會有影響然後第二個沒有就找代理教師那問題是我們現在"},{"start":6660.928,"end":6679.813,"text":"整個教育環境對行政人員也是不友善嘛所以才會產生行政大逃亡我還有聽說南部啦開六個校長的缺只有四個報考現在真的行政大逃亡的狀況非常嚴重那當然第一個教育部現在也在推行政減量那我們來看一下"},{"start":6683.529,"end":6697.248,"text":"對我這邊還有一個對老師不友善我請教育部也去了解一下現在教師受傷的案件數也呈現上升你看109年教師受傷一年是77件現在113年"},{"start":6700.899,"end":6719.994,"text":"從113年8月1號統計到114年的5月23號受傷211件他是曾倍數成長這個我今天就不討論 不問了但是你們去研究一下為什麼老師受傷案件倍增那麼多啦好 那我現在要講的就是行政檢量部分剛剛我們召回革命軍也有在問這個問題"},{"start":6722.332,"end":6741.458,"text":"就是要可能教育部都配合陸委會嘛去查老師到底有沒有中國大陸的身分證戶籍或相關證件這個不是不能查啦如果國家的政策要了解軍公教到底有沒有大陸的戶籍不是不能查但是不同單位全部發文給學校發文的七次"},{"start":6742.398,"end":6759.218,"text":"那確實是有確實不同的單位都有發文給七次老師我問的狀況坦白說老師大概拒絕一次就拒絕一次 為什麼因為很多學校的人士收到以後因為已經統計過了就沒有叫老師再來拒絕一次但是這個也是一個"},{"start":6760.339,"end":6786.172,"text":"行政的負擔嘛因為人事收到以後每一個文來了他都要回一次每一個文來了都要回一次類似的狀況很多啊所以教育部能不能做一個統籌的單位以後問一樣的問題是不是就教育部來做單一窗口就好不要陸委會發一次行政院秘書長發一次權序部發一次大家都發一次那學校人事單位人事組主任或組長或相關的人當然很忙啊"},{"start":6786.932,"end":6796.055,"text":"就是做重複做七次一樣的事情這就是行政負擔這違背教育部行政減量嘛我不知道部長能不能做到啊"},{"start":6797.039,"end":6822.953,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒行政檢量本來就是教育部一直在努力的但是也讓委員知道教育部轉發當然有我們就是一次我同意的但是有時候可能中央部會直接到那個地方譬如說其他的中央部會轉到你聽我講一下我的意思是說教育部就是要照顧學校嘛不要讓學校的行政負擔越來越增加嘛"},{"start":6823.433,"end":6842.082,"text":"一件事情要行政人員回七次那站在教育主管機關教育部的立場難道不能夠站在學校角度去跟其他單位溝通說這個東西以後大家不要各自扒過去就我教育部統籌我們要讓行政人員不要那麼大負擔這教育部這樣都做不到喔這個倒是我們可以來努力的"},{"start":6843.262,"end":6843.803,"text":"我也利用這個機會跟委員報告"},{"start":6872.722,"end":6896.418,"text":"沒有我只是要瞄準事實例如說像剛剛舉的那個例子查有沒有大陸戶籍這件事情讓老師同樣一件事回了七次嘛那你如果認為這個也會造成負擔那以後教育部就溝通嘛那當然你會講其他問題我們可以一個一個來解決嘛可是那是不相干的嘛謝謝委員 謝謝委員我們會努力再來我跟請教一下因為後來你也可以去了解一下陸委會說還要繼續查啦"},{"start":6899.663,"end":6914.978,"text":"內政部說第二波要鎖定公立教師跟公職你看這是5月26號中央社新聞他說之前只是第一波啦第二波要針對公職與公立學校教師展開清查這個部分部長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":6918.988,"end":6945.331,"text":"跟委員報告 這個部分我們目前沒有接到沒有接到 你去了解一下好不好是不要再造成我們剛剛講的狀況要不要各單位又再問一次讓那個人事主任忙死了好不好這個問題我們會再去了解就是說以後要查就找教育部發一次大家回就好 不要七次好不好 因為現在又要第二波那我的了解是公立學校教師都已經都已經填過了啊填過為什麼還要再查一次"},{"start":6946.926,"end":6973.945,"text":"我就覺得很奇怪 但如果會不在你們不知道去了解一下好不好 去提醒一下是 好 謝謝然後行政這個有關於行政減量最近有一個議題在學校討論得很熱烈跟教育部長來討論一下就是專職交通導護的問題因為前一段時間三峽發生一個很不幸的一個交通重大意外事故事件所以有些校園在討論說那是不是還要讓老師來兼這個交通導護"},{"start":6975.151,"end":6997.339,"text":"那很多老師當然老師來兼交通導護也會造成老師的一些風險有沒有可能教育部可以跟警政署或相關機關討論一下請他們支援專職的交通導護人力這有沒有可能還是教育部已經有類似的有看到學校這樣的呼籲已經有類似的想法有沒有"},{"start":6998.51,"end":7021.323,"text":"跟委員報告從中央的一個角度我們當然會請謹慎處從行政上給予地方的一些協助但是也跟委員報告國民教育它確實是地方以我們校法為地方自治所以各縣市政府裡面譬如說我也在校安行政院的一個校安會議裡面特別提到通學步道中央交通部"},{"start":7022.475,"end":7028.3,"text":"補助了非常多的錢不要這樣子好不好我才跟你講的是專職教育導護的問題你又給我扯到那個通學上去如果這樣我就直接跟委員報告從我的觀點那是地方的權責他整天去維護各縣市政府的小孩子的一個安全縣市政府有責任"},{"start":7042.55,"end":7061.528,"text":"台北市他可能會有需要專職交通保護問題新北市可能有需要台中可能有需要花蓮可能有需要台南可能有需要高雄可能有需要等一下我還沒有不要插話好不好如果全國都有類似一致的需要那就是全國一致性的問題"},{"start":7062.549,"end":7081.307,"text":"教育部是全國主管教育最高的機關那教育部不能訂出一個政策出來嗎怎麼難道就是說台北市你比較重視交通所以你有專職導護台南你沒有沒關係這就推卸責任嘛如果說什麼事情都推給地方的話那教育部到底要負責什麼文報這不是推卸責任"},{"start":7081.687,"end":7105.693,"text":"那你至少你教育部你也可以召集所有的各縣市政府來聊一下嘛說你們有沒有這樣的需求台北市也可以聽聽台南的意見然後台中也可以聽聽新北的意見大家來思考一下怎麼樣在交通這一塊可以做得更好而且這是一個重大的事件耶在全國關注三峽的這個重大交通事件然後教育部的態度居然是說那是地方政府的事 跟我無關"},{"start":7106.733,"end":7134.528,"text":"怎麼會有這種態度呢維護學童的安全這絕對是大家都一致共通的一些基本的一個態度所以我現在問的一個政策問題嘛我的政策問題就是說現在還要讓老師去兼交通保護嗎能不能夠教育部比如說協同其他單位去思考說有沒有可以讓比如說警察機關來推動警政署他有個政策各地可以請當地的警察局一交協助學生上下學"},{"start":7135.588,"end":7157.113,"text":"這當然是中央一致的政策 怎麼會去推給地方政府呢這能不能做你最起碼 教育部最起碼也可以召集各縣市政府來討論一下嘛怎麼會說 一講就說 這個是地方政府的事我們事實上是有跟地方政府在討論這件事情的有討論 還是開會討論嗎 還是電話討論開會 開會討論然後呢 結論是什麼"},{"start":7164.878,"end":7189.085,"text":"什麼時候開的會會後在今天下班前給委員資料當時討論有把一些縣市的經驗有些縣市他用校安的導護有些縣市用義交的導護這些經驗我們都會整個縣市有些縣市發現他還是要老師但老師相關的保險那要做一點處理人事總署也配合協助所以這些整個下班前給委員做個報告謝謝"},{"start":7190.925,"end":7203.394,"text":"所以中央就是有角色嘛怎麼會問到議題之後呢中央就說那地方政府的事我不能接受部長這種態度啦然後最後我問一下校安人力啦上次在總執行員有跟你請教你說五月份的時候這個就會實施嘛對吧"},{"start":7204.335,"end":7231.816,"text":"是 我們事實上這個經費也都撥到五月份的時候就已經撥到各學校去了所以現在學校已經有可以二選一了一個是檢課津貼另外一個是可以聘請專職的校園人員是的是不是是那我這邊有兩個建議啦再請部長研究一下第一個如果有些學校他是選擇用檢課津貼的方式請未來在施培的過程當中可以增加一些校安的課程這樣可以嗎"},{"start":7233.982,"end":7254.311,"text":"是不是在或者是其他教育訓練可以教師的真能這個我們同意真能這一塊增加校安的好不好而且甚至未來引用專業的這個行政人員他必須要有這樣的素養這第一個第二個能力上面因為上次我有跟部長報告高中是六個班一個校安人員"},{"start":7255.458,"end":7272.333,"text":"那國中現在好不容易有了二選一方案要嘛是可以增加一個副組長的檢課津貼第二個就是好不容易一個專職校園人員但是全校一個30個班也是一個60個班也是一個但高中是6個班就一個可不可以"},{"start":7273.206,"end":7292.189,"text":"增加我知道部長一定會講說這個預算啊這是地方政府的事啊又怎麼樣一定會講這些東西搞不好要遲到才化法什麼的我現在只問你說你覺得能不能 有沒有必要增加增加校安人力讓學校有更安全的一個學習教學的環境一直是教育部努力的目標"},{"start":7292.93,"end":7321.004,"text":"所以剛才委員事實上也很清楚我們必須要全盤去考量總體的一個議長因為我今天我們在這邊我們就是討論教育議題啦好不好就討論教育議題你認為有沒有必要增加如果部長在這邊宣示說你覺得有必要增加因為你也覺得高中六個人六班一個國中現在全校一個好像確實是人數有點懸殊我們應該要朝向增加的目標那後面大家再來談嘛來談說中央地方大家怎麼做經濟分配嘛"},{"start":7322.085,"end":7351.044,"text":"今年我會有這一個就是已經展現教育部的態度我們也希望地方政府大家中央跟地方一起來合作能夠朝這一個部長我們先定一個目標出來再去講經費嘛你認為國中應該要增加到幾半一個校園人員比較合理我必須要有一個更完整的一個評估更完整的評估現在沒辦法回答那要評估多久可不可以評估好之後跟我們教育五號委員會的委員講一下評估多久"},{"start":7352.836,"end":7372.711,"text":"是不是讓我們先在這一學期裡面我們先做了我們整體來評估然後看怎麼樣一個合適的一個校安人力的一個支持我想那個方向跟委員的想法是一致的但是請讓我們有一個更詳細的那你講一個時間嘛就是說你大概要評估多久嘛增加校安人力這一塊"},{"start":7373.792,"end":7389.383,"text":"大概多久吧謝謝委員剛剛部長有提到一四學年會增加校安人力現在政治學務人力跟副組長這已經在調查我們先做一學期看看一學期之後來做一個補助報告作為新學年的一個評估的資訊好 謝謝謝謝月圓之委員諮詢 官員請回座接下來有請陳秀寶委員諮詢"},{"start":7407.983,"end":7412.055,"text":"謝主席 請教育部政部長有請政部長備諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":7419.442,"end":7436.479,"text":"首先我們還是要先來關心關於美國川普政府禁止哈佛收外籍學生這個消息那本席相信這個消息不論是說對已經錄取的學生還是教育部來說都是很震驚的但我們接下來主要我們最要緊要想的是說會衍生的問題以及我們相對應的解決的辦法"},{"start":7440.003,"end":7445.925,"text":"那目前除了錄取的新生之外也有說外籍生、舊生如果說你離開、返回母校像你寒暑假你回國之後是沒有辦法持續再註冊就讀的那關於這部分的說法教育部不知道有沒有聽說你們有沒有針對這樣的狀況有管道去協助台灣的這些哈佛學生適宜或是"},{"start":7463.332,"end":7487.105,"text":"後續的學業應該做提供哪一些的幫助尤其剛才有委員有提到現在最新的消息是說現在是全面的暫停學生簽證面談但這個對已經決定要去美國念書已經做足充足準備的這些學生真的是晴天霹靂但針對像相關的這些學生目前我們教育部針對受影響的學生的狀況我們有什麼協助的辦法"},{"start":7489.738,"end":7508.425,"text":"其實感謝委員的關心我們對這個在哈佛的52名的學生我們駐外都會跟他們主動的保持聯絡然後也如果他們要回來台灣我們在台清教這些頂尖大學也都高教師也都分別跟學校"},{"start":7510.286,"end":7534.374,"text":"請學校在這一個部分能夠無縫的接軌讓他們要進台大因為能夠進到哈佛事實上這學生的這一個各項的一些才識都是非常好的部長您的意思說是這些學生如果他想要回台就讀的話是沒有問題的那我想請教關於如果說暑假寒假他們返台之後會不能再繼續註冊就讀這是真的嗎"},{"start":7537.313,"end":7566.813,"text":"這個你們有沒有管道去協助學生的了解這個部分我們目前查了美國國務院的官網其實並沒有宣布這項禁令所以救生的話目前是不需要去擔憂這個部分但是他們可能會針對就是是否有曾經參與過以色列對於就是加薩的這個行動有表達有之前有參與相關的抗議事件的這個部分的學生"},{"start":7567.794,"end":7588.352,"text":"這次他們全面的就是暫停學生的面談主要也是在針對社群調查這個部分應該是全球的學生都是這樣子調查的今天雖然有這個新聞但是我們跟AIT這邊了解之後AIT目前還沒有接到國務院的任何的指示"},{"start":7589.093,"end":7616.998,"text":"所以目前已經排定的學生面談還是會照常進行好 謝謝那其實就像部長您剛說的能夠錄取哈佛的學生都是非常優秀的那本席也相信這是國際間大家都是認定的那在川普政府禁止哈佛售外籍生的這個消息一傳出呢周邊我們其實很多國家像日本啊 香港啊他就對這些優秀的學生招手那我想請教教育部我們會不會邀請這些優秀的學生來我國就讀"},{"start":7618.953,"end":7645.12,"text":"我想我們的想法跟委員或者委員所提供的這些不管日本事實上在整個國際上反映最快的事實上是新加坡新加坡國立大學我們已經都充分掌握資訊所以在當新加坡國立大學有對這個Columbia的一個川普總統對Columbia的這個學校經費上的一些可能的一些縮減我們已經就開始在規劃台灣怎麼樣在"},{"start":7647.381,"end":7651.002,"text":"這個國際的等於說美國的這些優秀的實質人才能夠來到台灣包含這個招生我們事實上教育部在今年的暑假裡面就積極規劃了歐洲的纜財跟美國的一個纜財我們希望不只是學生同時也是一個這個實質人力上的一些年輕學者上我們事實上是也有很多的一些規劃"},{"start":7671.647,"end":7697.538,"text":"所以教育部這邊已經有著手在規劃相關的 是的 公文報告當這個中美的這個貿易的這些的許多的一些這個競爭裡邊川普的宣示這個關稅那我們已經在著手這個消息出來事實上教育部已經在著手做許多的規劃好 那其實新聞裡面有提到這些無法進入哈佛就讀的學生呢陸續會到"},{"start":7699.099,"end":7716.375,"text":"歐洲學校就讀的意願是比較高的可能是因為語系的關係那我本席這邊希望說教育部不僅可以全面的照顧我國學生的權益那也可以協助這些優秀的國際學生到台灣來但是像香港日本他們相當的積極他們不僅是說有一些成立專屬的這些團隊來協助包括安排"},{"start":7722.721,"end":7742.547,"text":"住宿签证的安排简化入学的流程无条件录取等等相关的学术的资源都非常的积极那日本也是他们境内的大学已经开始在商量如何尽速的协助这些愿意到日本就读的学生那我们是不是也有要比较积极的方案来对应呢"},{"start":7743.117,"end":7769.228,"text":"是感謝委員提醒確實我們現在這個頂尖大學國內頂尖大學完全都是百分之百歡迎哈佛的學生來到台灣就讀那這個部分我想我們就不是只是做我們是也能夠見賢思齊確實這個日本他有一個這樣一個新聞的一個發布我想我們也可以來但是我要跟委員報告我們所規劃的東西絕對因為事實上"},{"start":7772.529,"end":7778.775,"text":"AEUS 新加坡國立大學他們只要川普宣布哪一個大學要縮減經費他們人就已經到那一個大學裡面去招兵買馬我想這些事實上我們資訊都充分掌握我們也希望能夠見賢知情"},{"start":7787.483,"end":7806.412,"text":"也應該要提供相關的對等的優渥減變的流程來吸引這些學生他們不會覺得麻煩覺得說來到台灣念書我們有頂見的大學我們有很好的國家風情但是我們也有很減變的手續讓他們不會覺得說用這個減變度去選擇到哪個國家去就讀的話我覺得說我們不要在這個部分輸了人家所以我們應該也有一個配套的流程來提供給這些學生"},{"start":7815.997,"end":7835.094,"text":"這我們這個積極來做我們會後馬上來這個規劃接下來我這邊要跟部長討論就是有關於高中以下學生手機管理規範這個問題那校園及學生使用手機的問題一直是本席非常關心我相信教育所有原因都是非常關心的議題"},{"start":7836.055,"end":7854.346,"text":"那針對教育部我們定調手機在校園裡面應該進行管理的部分我是肯定的但是規範的內容是不是有廣納學生的意見那進行與受影響群眾包含像學生家長老師有進行有效的溝通我覺得教育部是真的做得不夠我們在討論"},{"start":7856.107,"end":7862.891,"text":"探討短音影音的內容的時候我們是要求教育部這邊要進行媒體這個試讀的課程讓學生有正確的觀念他可以去判斷可以去思考就是說關於他所接觸到的短音影音是不是對他自己是有負面影響的是不是必須的那我們在討論使用手機的時候呢我們有沒有跟孩子們灌輸溝通教育說合理使用手機的方式問題不在手機而是我們如何使用如何正確使用"},{"start":7884.984,"end":7902.198,"text":"但是目前看來當然我們國小生 國中小生跟高中生這個脫鉤的方式我也是支持的但是目前看起來教育部真的在溝通的部分跟廣大意見的部分是做得不到位啦所以會讓高中的學生反彈的聲浪很強烈那6月1號我們會有個說明會之後教育部我們後續的期程規劃是什麼"},{"start":7911.629,"end":7933.19,"text":"謝謝委員關心 確實我們當時考慮到這個高中職跟國中小他是透過分流管理然後這個也希望因為高中在整個學習課程上他確實跟國中小有許多的差異所以我們在出定的一個草案辦法的一個包含跟地方跟各個"},{"start":7934.571,"end":7953.159,"text":"團體裡面的一個座談我們確實是授權比較是授權各地方這一個政府跟學校裡面訂定相關的規則當然包含納入學生的代表沒有明文規定但是後來委員也很關心能不能學生的意見希望能夠達到三文之一我們也"},{"start":7954.099,"end":7969.655,"text":"具體的從善如流就說至少要三分之一這裡邊的一個代表我們目前預告在網路上的這一個預告平台也把學生的意見改為三分之一的一個代表我想委員所提的我們本來就希望說"},{"start":7970.436,"end":7997.251,"text":"在科技的一個世代裡邊怎麼樣善用科技能夠有助於年輕世代更好的學習更好的成長但是也不要因為科技而使得他在上課上的不專心或者影響他副相的一些身心的發展對校園的一些學生權益的一個維護包括尊重學生的一些聲音我們事實上也希望透過這一次的一個手機修訂在6月1號裡邊能夠在"},{"start":7999.952,"end":8018.361,"text":"有一個更大型的一個實體跟線上的一個公聽會然後作為我們更完善的一個定案上的一個修正上的一些意見那意思就是說在6月1號之後我們還會再有一個比較大型的然後對象是可以包含到比較廣面的這樣子的一個公聽會"},{"start":8020.942,"end":8042.719,"text":"因為其實學生所反映上來的意見 他們會覺得說如果你們都沒有問過我們 都沒有學生的意見來查那其實他們有時候在學校使用手機是要跟學校或是跟老師溝通相關的事物那下課的時間應該是不是要回歸給學生有他們自主選擇 而不是全面禁用等等那其實在學校段呢 他們也會因為是不是不想惹事端 不想讓學生反彈"},{"start":8044.881,"end":8054.286,"text":"那這樣子在規範寬還是鬆還是延這個部分呢就可能是不是會觸犯到我們相關的法規或者說反而讓學生反彈讓教師反彈這個部分我覺得這個尺度上我們還是要一個更廣泛的討論那其實國際間對學生使用手機"},{"start":8064.571,"end":8080.272,"text":"到目前都慢慢地也祭出了規範而且是越來越嚴的狀況因為是希望說把這個手機的正面跟負面讓學生可以去理解不要說因為手機的方便性、便利性反而帶給它是學習上的主力"},{"start":8080.872,"end":8102.13,"text":"這個部分我想家長們教師們都是支持的但是如何讓孩子們去理解到也感受到說他們的權益不會被教育部剝奪而且他們的聲音他們的意見你們是尊重的是是有一個可以採納的這個部分呢我也希望說教育部這邊能夠讓學生感受到說你們是"},{"start":8104.351,"end":8108.837,"text":"很善意的在對這個手機做規範那這個部分呢除了說公聽會那廣大意見之外呢我們會不會參採國外的範例就是有示範期或者說我們會持續的在怎樣的時間裡面是滾動檢討的"},{"start":8121.292,"end":8147.388,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒那個方向確實一直都是我們在努力的包含學校的一個規範他的一個這個管理我們也初步也提出了這一個四種的一個方式那這四種的方式裡面有的是由我們尊重學校他可能通過的是採用由學校同意來管理或者又各各班的班級裡面設置這一個手機置物櫃那也有第三個選項譬如說"},{"start":8148.769,"end":8176.722,"text":"學生是關機然後放在書包裡邊就是說配合因應這個可能學習上需要的時候才拿出來我想這裡邊我們事實上都也做了一些參考國外的經驗那也希望在6月1號以後我們有一個更完善的一個學生的一個意見事實上在過去我們不管在高雄或者在台北我們也都收集了一些學生團體的一些意見那也許我們希望透過6月1號"},{"start":8177.782,"end":8196.778,"text":"有一個更完整的一些政策上的一些確定我想這一個我們會根據學生的6月1號的一些我們再做一些這一個看怎麼樣來調整讓能夠真正落實讓學生有更好的科技的使用然後也不會影響到他整個"},{"start":8198.419,"end":8213.97,"text":"謝謝部長 但是我還是要提醒一下滾動隨時滾動檢討這個必要性啦就是隨時 我們不是說一個方案定下去就一定是這樣子做我們可以隨時根據不同的狀況來調整這個部分我希望有這樣的空間好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝承秀保委員諮詢 官員請回座接下來有請林怡瑾召委諮詢"},{"start":8228.87,"end":8229.631,"text":"謝主席 有請鄭部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":8238.854,"end":8262.986,"text":"委員好部長好我想本席首先還是先來關心這個校園手機管制這個議題那當然你們這個草案確實引發很多高中生的反彈那我們來想想像這個問題就學生手機因為我們是為了要來治所謂的網路成癮這件事情那當然學生手機網路成癮"},{"start":8264.542,"end":8285.578,"text":"治標的方式有很多啦可是我今天想跟部長談治本那本席認為說第一個啦自由是必須要學習的這個我想部長你一定很認同那我們現在的台灣已經是一個資訊化自由化的時代那你要限縮學生的自由然後"},{"start":8286.218,"end":8305.662,"text":"沒有辦法讓學生去學習如何使用手機的知識或者是說你在網路上太自我保護的這種觀念我們試著要這樣做可是我覺得你會讓這些所謂的高中生某程度是準大人會讓這些準大人沒有機會去學習說這個面對即將到來是全面開放全面自主的所謂大學生活"},{"start":8314.404,"end":8333.562,"text":"這是第一點第二點是我們需要一個新時代的校園因為校園平權啊或者是校園民主化這個趨勢我們沒辦法擋所以我們必須要更有新的思維去面對每個學生是一個對等的個體那不大可能像以前那種管制的那種"},{"start":8335.043,"end":8363.64,"text":"管制的那種集體的管制那樣那換個話講就是說你現在如果要求說導師獨立來管理一個班級那我覺得也是一個不可能的任務因為現在的這個班級治理可能需要跨專業跨領域人才的分工合作那過去老師靠一些高壓的方法或威權來領導那個班級我覺得這個已經被淘汰了那手機的問題其實也是反映"},{"start":8365.622,"end":8380.782,"text":"它反映出單一導師要管理一個班級的不可能教育部發布這樣的禁令某個程度我覺得也就是類似這樣的類比也是治標不治本再來就是說其實手機跟網路其實不是毒藥"},{"start":8382.594,"end":8402.721,"text":"那我舉個例子像說像菜刀它可以是殺人的武器可是它也可能是一個國宴主廚的涼拌它可以透過菜刀組成一桌的佳餚所以就是說管制菜刀大家就會覺得很荒謬為什麼要管制菜刀可是菜刀有可能殺人所以怎麼樣去"},{"start":8406.742,"end":8432.655,"text":"運用用這樣的概念手機網路是現代人生活的一部分不可或缺所以教務怎麼樣從旁協助去來導正或者來把這個所謂的讓學生學會怎麼樣跟手機網路和平共存我想這才是治本的方式而不是說要學生類似戒斷這種方式"},{"start":8434.676,"end":8454.642,"text":"那我想說當然剛剛有很多委員提及我們6月1號就要來開座談會那我猜學生一定會勢必提出很多的看法那教育部到底要如何去整理或參酌學生的意見然後來整理這個修正目前我們公告的這個版本"},{"start":8456.437,"end":8467.49,"text":"面對我剛提的這個問題不曉得部長你有什麼樣的看法那怎麼樣的教育思維你覺得真的是勢必要學的學的更新的"},{"start":8468.426,"end":8492.074,"text":"我首先要感謝委員的提醒但是委員剛才所提的自由是要學習的校園的民主包括學生的權益上怎麼樣去維護這事實上都是我們在這一次的校園手機的一個實施要點裡面目前的草案整個規劃方向那也感謝委員這麼在"},{"start":8493.394,"end":8514.439,"text":"制定的過程也提供了許多的一些寶貴的意見所以我們過去原來是想說特別高中職學生他確實是一個某種程度他也是一個我們希望給你在學習權益包含他的學習方式課程都不一樣應該有更大的一些空間所以我們在這一個"},{"start":8518.078,"end":8538.811,"text":"學校老師在制定了一個管理的一個要點裡面是包含學校老師家長團家長的代表跟學生的代表我們當時沒有訂定明確的學生的代表比例是想說學校本來就是剛才委員所關心的校園民主化的過程許多的這些這些權益的一個維護包括"},{"start":8539.631,"end":8554.077,"text":"你我人我之間的一些前一界線怎麼樣去應該要有充分的一些表達讓他們有充分的表達意見結束以後才提校務會議當時的起心動念也是對高中生的一個尊重但是後來"},{"start":8555.117,"end":8578.714,"text":"學生團體包括委員在關心說能不能把學生實質的提升到三分之一我們教育部在這個要點也就從善如流因為確保因為我們原來是想說在民主的一個討論過程讓學校有更多的一些跟老師學生透過討論的過程我們不要去定一個三分之一"},{"start":8579.864,"end":8599.536,"text":"如果他們討論過程是學生可以有二溫之一的代表我們總是希望在一個校園的一個政策他確實政策制定他需要有一個這個法治化民主的一個精神能夠展現所以我想委員所關心的正是我們教育部一直但是"},{"start":8601.336,"end":8625.886,"text":"當時確實有一些要點並沒有凸顯這個不同教育階段上雖然我們精神是這樣但是我們沒有在明文上把它更清楚的展現出來可能也會這樣而造成地方在執行上許多不必要的一些爭議或者困擾我們也在這次的預告裡面也都做了一些調整做了這樣的一個補充"},{"start":8629.447,"end":8632.59,"text":"那我想再來要跟部長談的是說因為我們教育部從去年就開始推動公立幼兒園評價課後評價的課後跟寒暑假實施延長照顧服務"},{"start":8646.44,"end":8669.666,"text":"這個政策真的是我們公幼教育的福音特別是去年寒假開辦率就有達到88.4%比前一年的同期成長了17.6%而且我們去年7月底教育部也開始補助家智照顧服務人力來減輕幼兒園的外聘人力的壓力"},{"start":8670.606,"end":8691.268,"text":"那不過當這個公幼課後 留院已經是常態之後我們就開始浮現照顧人力不足的問題了近期來就有一些幼教團體在反映說不管園所的規模大小如何每一個園所只能申請一名家事照顧服務人力"},{"start":8691.889,"end":8713.527,"text":"那這個對留遠的人數比較多的學校來講確實人力就不足那還有幼教團體也反映說有不少學校他開始讓家智的照顧人力來帶班雖然是課後的人力那他們被要求說早上就要去上班那做的工作也幾乎跟正職差不多一樣"},{"start":8715.809,"end":8739.528,"text":"而且家智照顧人力他們也說他們有些人也有教保員的資格可是他們跟教保員他們就沒有教保費2000塊的補助久而久之人員之間的工作內容跟責任等於是沒有差別可是薪資卻有落差在職場上就有一些職場上的互相職業歧視的問題"},{"start":8741.349,"end":8766.26,"text":"那另外就說這個家智照顧服務人員他經費是國教署來補助那可是這個新版的才化法通過之後那從中央拿走三千多億到地方去那中央的經費減少後那這些經費到底有沒有著落就是說未來經費會不會補助到地方那當然這些家智照顧服務人員會擔心那再來就是說地方願不願意"},{"start":8766.9,"end":8782.81,"text":"自己來維持這筆人事經費那當公幼的客流成為常態之後如果經費充滿不確定性那這些人力又怎麼會願意留下來那另外就是說我們偏向的狀況又是更加的困難"},{"start":8783.37,"end":8809.837,"text":"因為偏鄉的小校人數真的很少所以他們無法申請所謂的加制人力等於是教保的服務人員他從早上七八點工作要忙到晚上六七點真的沒有人力可以替換來喘一口氣本席上述提到這些問題首先想要請問教部到底有沒有規劃我們依照學校的規模來加制來增加"},{"start":8811.858,"end":8839.449,"text":"家事人力的這個緣額那還有就是說家事人力可以帶班嗎另外就是說他跟正職的工作到底怎麼界定區分 部長謝謝委員關心我們這個對年輕家庭的一些支持的力量那我也利用這個機會要感謝全國的這些公立幼稚園學校負責的這個幼稚園因為我們目前從現在已經有達到95%"},{"start":8841.21,"end":8855.529,"text":"原來去年還八十幾也就是說大部分的公幼都已經協助看到年輕家庭他們在小孩照顧跟工作職場上實現的需要所以他們這一課後的一個延長照顧已經達到95%以上"},{"start":8858.092,"end":8871.924,"text":"那委員所關心的怎麼樣這個增加一些客戶的照顧照顧的這些人我們目前也增加了全國也增加了500多位但是屬於報酬或者許多的上課的這個"},{"start":8874.807,"end":8899.169,"text":"這個運作跟這個對幼兒的照顧的那些時間怎麼樣我想我們再來跟地方政府有一個更了解實際上的需求看怎麼樣儘管有一個這一個所謂的才化法包含地方的一個特殊性我們還是希望跟中央跟地方合作看怎麼樣來能夠對年輕家庭有一個更多的一些支持的力量我想這我們來努力"},{"start":8900.39,"end":8922.966,"text":"現在就是因為財化法的關係,所以這筆錢,國教署是還可以一直support地方嗎?目前,所以這個就是要跟地方來看,我們怎麼透過合作,地方如果財化好,這個經費到地方,地方當然也對年輕家庭的一個照顧,我相信地方政府也都會樂於來,這個承接更多的責任,我想,我們來努力。"},{"start":8925.049,"end":8944.321,"text":"那最後想要跟您談的就是說這個偏鄉地區學校發展教育發展條例從2017年開始就計算這個9任年份那連續服務滿8年就是等於說從今年的12月起我們就要針對第一批符合資格的來發放9任獎金那好"},{"start":8944.801,"end":8958.098,"text":"現在現在就偏遠地區學校教師的9月份獎金它裡頭有規定喔就是說在同一所學校連續服務滿8年那表現優良者就會發獎金那可是現在就重點來了有現場教師在反映"},{"start":8960.16,"end":8988.602,"text":"就要在同一所學校任職確實有一些難度像是戴老師啊他可能是非自願離開學校因為時間高又要離開可是他又到其他的偏鄉去服務可是你如果按照都在偏鄉地區服務可是我按照你的規定好像又不能因為你要在同一所學校所以他就領不到這個九份獎金那這樣子的話他在偏鄉服務的意願就當然會降低因為這要鼓勵他在偏鄉服務嘛那另外"},{"start":8990.423,"end":9013.129,"text":"你們有制定一個所謂的偏遠地區學校校長教師九任獎金發起相關疑義的問答集有這個問答集那裡面有提到說偏遠地區學校的教師跟後用校長如果商界到教育局那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉所以這個不得採進年資可是借到通常都是馬士公務需求"},{"start":9014.569,"end":9038.238,"text":"這個教師的職缺他還是在原學校假設有一個老師在偏鄉服務了七年那可是他被介紹到教育局一年那結果他因為這樣子他就沒辦法領到九任獎金而且我們來看九任獎金這個母法就是偏遠地區學校教育發展條例的第21條"},{"start":9039.699,"end":9068.718,"text":"他並沒有說要在同一所學校裡面他並沒有這樣講是我們的解釋我們的辦法是這樣規定所以想要請教部長說可不可以來研議重寬認定這個在偏遠地區學校服務的年資不要用同一所學校為限那還有就是說如果可不可以研議說來商界到教育局服務的這些年資也納入九任獎金的年資裡頭各位委員報告謝謝委員關心偏鄉老師的一些照顧"},{"start":9069.899,"end":9085.207,"text":"那確實我們也看到這個問題就老師這個部分因為這個偏鄉學校他可能已經老師已經補滿了或者他可能因為因應駕回來了就沒有代理的一個人力上的需求那這樣的因為類似這樣一個情況他可能因為這樣離開這個學校假學校"},{"start":9092.861,"end":9116.766,"text":"以學校去偏鄉的學校服務這個年資我們目前的辦法我們是務實的會同意來累加只要都在偏鄉偏鄉是可以累加的不是因為他個人的一些因素不是個人的因素等於說因為這一個老師他的缺已經沒有了所以他不能再當代理老師所以他必須要離開"},{"start":9119.947,"end":9144.517,"text":"但是他離開的學校還是在偏鄉所以這個年制是可以的那第二個就是有關比如說某一個主任或者校長他可能在原來這個學校任教已經滿六年或者七年然後因為他的一個專業或者因為他的一些特殊的專長需要地方縣市政府來借調可能一年兩年"},{"start":9145.318,"end":9153.438,"text":"那這個部分我們是可以來跟地方來談就是說我們按比例比如說他實際在當老師或是當主任校長有六年"},{"start":9154.827,"end":9175.096,"text":"他的缺還是在這一個學校之中這一年被調到那這一個我們也許就可以給八分之七的這樣的一個就是說他的缺還是在我想這個我們都可以來跟地方建立共識然後對偏鄉的老師的權益能夠給以這一個支持大概做好謝謝謝謝部長這個很善意的回應謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":9180.532,"end":9190.801,"text":"謝謝林怡瑾召委諮詢 官員請回座接下來我們在羅廷偉委員之後 我們會休息五分鐘那我們接著有請張雅玲委員諮詢謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請部長備諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":9205.131,"end":9233.486,"text":"部長好 首先我還是要針對這個台大性平事件來請教部長因為我想部長應該非常清楚我非常關心這個議題然後從一開始其實就一直我不停的在關切這件事情那這次之所以引發這麼多的爭議我認為教育部處理的速度太慢了那我也認為教育部作為一個最高的性平主管機關應該要樹立這個典範所以我認為我們還有精進的空間不曉得我這樣子說 部長您認同嗎"},{"start":9235.151,"end":9261.417,"text":"我想我同意委員的一個說法確實教育部在這裡邊怎麼樣責成台大有更積極的一些作為在對學生權益的維護包含事後對受傷害的這些學生的一個更多的一些心理或者這些輔導上的一些支持力量我想"},{"start":9263.037,"end":9292.185,"text":"確實台大是可以有精進的空間好 我想不只是教育不只是台大了包含是教育部的部分都還有精進的空間所以我想接下來我就要來跟在這件事情上面我覺得我們有一些要來檢討的地方但目前我們知道就是葉刺現在已經請假了準備要調查所以我想要知道性評會已經正式立案調查那可不可以簡單說明一下目前的一個調查進度我們什麼時候可以有一個調查結果"},{"start":9294.315,"end":9309.694,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個性評會確實在上個禮拜五已經召開然後也業次這個應該接受這個也組成專案應該調查所以業次在星期二星期一的一個會議決議"},{"start":9311.576,"end":9326.115,"text":"然後這個會議的一個結果結議的結果也讓信憑的委員都看過了他們也等於說確定會議的一個記錄所以現在的一個調查小組也正式在明天會議"},{"start":9327.716,"end":9354.932,"text":"下禮拜一就會有調查小組 下禮拜一就會召開第一次的會議然後來進行調查所以在這個調查期間我們希望這一個為了沒問題我想了解一下我知道部長大家說什麼但是我想要知道我想現在我們還是回到現實上面我們可以處理的事情就是說現在下禮拜一會有調查小組那有沒有什麼時間預估會完成調查結果呢因為我希望這個結果是可以越快越好啦"},{"start":9356.624,"end":9382.521,"text":"是我們現在的教育部的一個立場也是希望越快越好因為某種程度這個調查期間對夜市它相當程度它也是它事實上也是相當我想這個還是回到學生啦從學生的角度還有大家現在關切的就是說這件事情到底有沒有影響到學生的部分所以我們還是回到就是說為什麼他希望我希望他可以盡快出來因為我們還是要保障的是這個學生是"},{"start":9383.581,"end":9403.628,"text":"是這個學生所以重點我們應該是放在這個學生身上所以我想知道我們現在有沒有一個規劃就是希望什麼時候會有一個調查結果呢因為在信憑法的規定大概是兩個月要完成嘛必要時刻延長兩次每次不得預一個月但我知道今天這個情況可能不一定適用所以我想要知道你們現在有沒有抓了一個時間點希望什麼時候可以得到這個提出"},{"start":9404.008,"end":9427.581,"text":"基本上就是陳委員所講因為涉及到政務官我們希望這個能夠在這個公平公正的一個不受干擾的情況下他能夠在一個月裡面能夠有這一個完整的一個調查報告出來好了解那我也想再請問一下就是說到底現在這個學生我們台大有沒有提供給他這些相關的心理輔導的資源呢"},{"start":9430.573,"end":9456.83,"text":"根據性平法我們應該是要提供的這個學生基本上是長期受到輔導中心在協助的對象因為他本身就有一些所以在這次的事件之後我想我們是有在多給嗎還有在多給是不是有在多給一些支持持續上在他們的輔導心理師都有在持續提供心理智商的服務"},{"start":9457.472,"end":9475.49,"text":"OK 好 那我也想要了解就是說因為在這一次我們可以看見整個教育部我認為是性平意識不足所以我想請教我們現在到底對我們不理人員有沒有進行一個常態的性平的教育訓練呢"},{"start":9478.339,"end":9487.677,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒確實我們在這個整個案件裡邊我們也在深切的檢討我們整個行政的一個過程裡邊到底"},{"start":9489.994,"end":9505.666,"text":"的疏漏在哪裡也希望能夠導正能夠強化這個整個機制希望這個事件不會再發生我想這是屬於我們內部那當然包含性平的一個意思或者課程或者我們教育部過去是一個主要的主管機關但是我們如果同仁在這個部分是不足的我們怎麼樣去增能我想這個確實是我們要努力的"},{"start":9515.313,"end":9541.431,"text":"好 我想 我剛剛的問題就是說在現在我們到底有沒有定期做這件事情在教育部裡面因為我們會有要求學校老師要定期的去回訓嘛那我們自己到底對部裡的人員有沒有做這些要求呢有 我們人事單位每年都固定辦理這個員工的培訓尤其在最近的這個性平法 性攻法 性殺法修正之後有很多新的規定以及當中的一個法的差異其實做了蠻多詳細的說明"},{"start":9543.072,"end":9562.903,"text":"而且邀請的講師都是我們性評會裡頭非常有經驗的學者專家那我們有沒有一些相關的評估機制呢看這個成效呢應該 我們都有填那個回饋的問卷那我們看一下回饋的問卷好不好提供給我一下回饋問卷還有這個結果好不好再來大概一個禮拜一之內應該可以提供吧"},{"start":9564.895,"end":9577.193,"text":"好 我們請我們的人事處來協助 謝謝好 那我想問因為剛剛是講說我們定期有做這件事情嗎但是這件事情就顯示是不足的應該要再增能對不對所以這個增能的部分我們有相關的計畫"},{"start":9578.991,"end":9580.572,"text":"我們會整體來看我們要怎麼樣哪一個地方是疏漏我們就先從那一個地方來補強"},{"start":9610.352,"end":9632.234,"text":"有 有 確定有有嗎 好喔 那我想問一下那目前就是因為承辦有洩漏個資的這個問題嘛那我們現在看到承辦好像現在已經有被懲處嘛 對不對但是我想問一下 那請問一下司長學特司司長吳林輝是否也應該對這件事情負起一些監督部座的責任呢因為好像我現在沒有看到您的部分這樣子"},{"start":9632.734,"end":9652.654,"text":"跟委員報告事實上吳市長他也自行處分也他自行處分也有處分是不是好喔那我想因為其實雪特斯最重要啦因為他就是姓平事件最重要的教育主管機關可是這次的事件我覺得會打擊我們基層很大的信心所以我們必須要採取更積極的作為好那接下來還有就是說"},{"start":9654.742,"end":9669.171,"text":"我認為因為這一次的個資保護的洩漏事件除了我們懲處之外我們在目前應該要再加強我們個資保護的制度是不是有更嚴謹的一個資料管理流程或者是加強的資安保護個資保護的一個訓練好這個部分是"},{"start":9672.253,"end":9700.341,"text":"我的第二個訴求那第三個部分呢我覺得在這次的事件上面我覺得教育部也應該要這樣建立相對應的一個問責機制來確保未來我們可以更謹慎的來處理性平與各自的相關事務那關於這三點我們施律可以提出相關的精進計畫或檢討報告因為我認為不是只有對立法委員要交代清楚最重要是我們要對社會而且我們也要讓學生很清楚的知道我們是如何的應對這件事情"},{"start":9702.261,"end":9709.723,"text":"讓未來這樣子的事情不要再發生這個部分部長可以承諾我嗎謝謝委員提醒確實我們也因為針對這個案這個事件我們內部已經在內控內機的這個部分做了一些調整流程過去可能當事人本以這個分層負責他就直接回應這個等於說那個頭頭陳情人"},{"start":9726.047,"end":9749.419,"text":"那我們現在就是說他的程序裡面加一個就是科長他一定要整個看過檢視然後這個文才可以出去譬如說我們加強了這個內控內積的這樣的一個程序希望能夠遵循我們性評法所有的規定而不要讓所有的關心這個性評工作或者直接的特別在這個受傷害的人這一個"},{"start":9750.86,"end":9771.474,"text":"第二次再受傷害這次的再受傷害所以是相關的檢討報告還有剛剛有提到就是說我們在各自的保護上面多加一個層級那這些是不是也都可以提供給大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢大概什麼時候我想我們會後就提供檢討報告嗎我是說全部的整個機制的檢討報告會後就可以提供"},{"start":9772.131,"end":9799.342,"text":"因為先前已經有內部做一個檢討而且也強化了相關人員的培訓好 那就是這個會後提供給我那我最後一件事情我想請教於台大這件事情其實我們一直不停的要關心最關鍵的問題其實還是在台大那我知道部長其實也都已經發了公文一直不停的在跟台大做溝通但是顯然台大還是認為他的處置沒有問題那接下來我們到底該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":9804.437,"end":9823.6,"text":"各位報告我們性評會已經成立了一個專案的小組會協助我們從監察院的糾正文從這個法院的起訴書重新檢視學校處理流程有沒有缺漏如果當中有涉及到重大為師的部分我們會去評估是不是需要做重啟調查那個專案小組會再處理"},{"start":9824.941,"end":9839.688,"text":"所以專業報告現在已經成立了那我們什麼時候可以有下一波的進度呢我想我們應該會努力在一個月內把整個審視的過程對布里頭後續如何督導學校來改善會提出一個完整的評估的建議"},{"start":9840.188,"end":9848.371,"text":"所以一個月這個外部的調查小組就會提供我們這樣子的一個結果然後如果他們認為裡面有輸入我們就會重啟調查對不對是會由部的性評會來調查還是由台大"},{"start":9855.353,"end":9871.665,"text":"跟我們報告目前這一個是縣評會部的縣評會做成的一個決議第一個決議就是這樣所以我們因為整個審視那當然如果沒有我們這一個如果台大有疏漏我們當然要一定要重啟調查這是無庸置疑的對對對我是說到底是誰會來重啟這個調查"},{"start":9876.582,"end":9891.961,"text":"目前我們是教育部裡邊的信聘會裡邊組成這個調查小組這個調查小組是現在來看流程有沒有缺失嘛對不對看完缺失就覺得有問題之後就要重啟調查嘛那是誰會來重啟這個調查呢如果有疏漏的話"},{"start":9893.339,"end":9914.668,"text":"根委員報告 依照性評法這一個還是學校性評會的權責當然如果將來真的需要重啟調查我們會對於調查小組的成員提供建議希望他另組而不是原來的因為我要再為什麼要確認這一點就是我怕到時候的結果如果我們沒有我們因為其實我想市長也非常清楚民間一直在講我們很多的性評準"},{"start":9916.408,"end":9938.598,"text":"性平的這個調查資料庫裡面其實很多人都不斷有更新新的性平意識所以這件事情會非常非常的重要那這件事情我也會持續的追下去那再來就是還是回到一下行動載具這件事情那這也是最近很多學生包含我之前也有幫我們的學生來跟教育部開一個協調會那學生其實非常強調一個重點"},{"start":9940.459,"end":9968.56,"text":"那我也想問一下教育部對於這件事情的看法就是說他們是希望可以建立一個比照服役委員會的規範建立一個諮詢委員會來確保他們的聲音可以被聽見那這個其實已經服役委員會其實已經行駛多年了那這個學生其實也蠻習慣那當天是說會帶回去討論那我不曉得說現在已經一個多禮拜了我們有沒有討論那是不是也可以來簡單說明一下"},{"start":9971.237,"end":9977.565,"text":"公文報告我們確實在因為這個草案目前在預告所以我們6月1號還有一個實體跟線上我們也希望能夠廣收這個廣聽這個高中時學生他們的一些意見那會後我們會把委員的意見裡面一併"},{"start":9989.72,"end":10015.94,"text":"都納入這個我們草案裡面看怎麼樣去做一些必要的一些條件我想問一下因為其實學生不管是之前我們跟部長在提這件事情或者是當天我們開協調會或是今天早上學生開記者會其實都蠻在乎的就是他們的聲音會不會被聽見在學校裡面不是只有這一次教育部的這個會議是學校裡面所以他們非常希望可以以服役委員會的方式來進行那這個部分部的態度到底是什麼呢"},{"start":10018.482,"end":10038.281,"text":"因為這個我覺得是學生非常非常堅持的一個部分是誰要來跟委員說明那因為我們這次收集的是參採各方意見如果在後面如果學生的整個意見這個方面是非常強烈那我們就會慎重考慮把它做這樣子版本的一個做調整"},{"start":10039.161,"end":10056.993,"text":"所以你的意思我可以解讀為是你們是有意願接受的對嗎其實跟委員說明一下我們目前其實是參採因為這個是一個社會溝通的過程所以我們必須參採各方的意見之後我們去做這樣子的我懂我的意思"},{"start":10057.193,"end":10069.879,"text":"我的意思是說 因為其實我們都可以聽到學生非常在乎這一怕嘛這件事情嘛那當然在很多就是說到底要不要收手機這裡面還有很多的爭議但是在這個他們希望在學校裡面他們可以用這種方式來進行那這樣子我這樣問好了如果我們最後在6月1號開完會學生都極力要求這一個所以教育部就會支持嗎"},{"start":10078.302,"end":10097.07,"text":"登委員報告那我們會跟現場執行面在做一些協商之後會想辦法把這樣子的一個訴求納入原則內好 了解 謝謝謝謝 謝謝司長那我最後快快問再耽誤一點點時間我本來其實很想問學生輔導法但我今天可能時間不太夠但我先問體育署"},{"start":10106.834,"end":10133.129,"text":"好 體育署我想不管我們過去一直不停的在講就是如何的展現體育署會監督我們的單項協會那這個上個月 三月的時候呢全這個 金週刊呢其實也專題報導民間對於體育署讓體育改革後的國體法修法其實都還是有很大的疑慮就是特別針對於單項協會這件事情因為過去我們看一看到冰球協會有暗抗補助款"},{"start":10134.289,"end":10150.22,"text":"或是足协有福报过高的转播费甚至去年我处理的极箭事件极箭协会等等的事件其实我都知道体育署有进行调查那我们也提出了组决议希望他可以公告但是呢体育署给我的回复呢还是说会把这个惩处放在访评"},{"start":10150.82,"end":10166.239,"text":"報告當中他還是不是放在一個公告的地方讓民眾知道體育署的確是有在監督的那我想問一下這一件事情我們還是希望可以放到公告的地方到底可不可以呢"},{"start":10166.994,"end":10191.341,"text":"報告委員這部分我想因為它本身如果公告的話算是一個行政法所以這樣子的部分必須要有法源的依據那我是建議委員我們會後我們是不是來努力看看我們針對整個要如果要在國體法去修法要做公佈這件事情我們從它的適宜性原則比例整個最小侵害性還有它整個的是不是達到它的目的公義性等等我們做評估我們來評估看看說未來我們來做這個修法"},{"start":10193.902,"end":10213.97,"text":"因為沒有這個修法我們的確沒有辦法直接公佈在網站上所以這件事情是你們要再跟你們自己的法務單位還是要跟法務部這邊也要再討論嗎目前我們知道是一定要修法只是說要不要這個修法的過程要去做評估這件事情接下來我會來跟委員這邊在做討論我們事實的如果真的有必要我們就來做啟動"},{"start":10215.114,"end":10226.577,"text":"好 那這個我們就盡快約好不好因為這件事情我覺得如果接下來我們九月就要掛牌了那這個是一直以來長期民間關心非常重要的議題好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢 官員請回座我們接下來請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":10243.666,"end":10272.716,"text":"有請部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長好部長在原教法就是原住民族教育法之下呢有提到要成立原住民族學校但是我看到蔡英文總統2016年上任之後她其實政見裡面有提到要做原住民族學校"},{"start":10273.576,"end":10289.149,"text":"那接續呢賴清德總統他去年520他的政見當中也有被揭露說提到要建立雙軌的原住民教育體系那他是提到說要以"},{"start":10290.168,"end":10308.471,"text":"原住民的文化與原知識體系為核心來推動原住民族學校可是經歷這麼長的時間在立法院也曾經有提案也有排審但是都不了了之那最主要的原因就是"},{"start":10309.232,"end":10322.78,"text":"大家對於什麼是原住民族學校原住民族學校要怎麼做沒有一個定見沒有共識所以呢我很高興今天就是看到教育部的解凍書面報告有提到規劃"},{"start":10326.002,"end":10354.211,"text":"台灣原住民族學校制度規劃之研究整合型研究計畫那特別提到從國際趨勢學校型態的運作課程與教學設計師資的培育教材的發展以及校長培訓等等議題我覺得計畫案很重要那這個部分可以幫助我們去釐清但是我也是要提到就是說我另外有兩個要求"},{"start":10355.154,"end":10360.824,"text":"就是原住民族實驗學校至今已經幾十所了"},{"start":10361.995,"end":10390.274,"text":"國小國中現在甚至已經要有高中的原住民族實驗學校了那我的意思是說2016年開始補助推動到明年就屆滿10年而且呢辦法裡面補助實驗學校是補助12年那但是補助幾年這個還不是重點而是說到底這些原住民實驗學校都已經從國小國中長到高中"},{"start":10393.376,"end":10412.81,"text":"他的定位到底在哪裡所以我覺得這個部分也希望部長您可以編列經費這個計畫很重要也要來做那再來呢就是這一些年我們實驗學校有各種不同的實驗理念做法"},{"start":10414.17,"end":10427.618,"text":"開發出各式各樣的課程 教材 教法但是有沒有可能也用計畫案要去計畫 去研究看看他們這一些課程的模組"},{"start":10428.598,"end":10436.142,"text":"到底有什麼地方是可以讓大家互相看到哪一種做法有什麼優點有什麼缺點應該怎麼做我認為這一些都應該要比照就是來做一個整合型的研究計畫部長您同意嗎"},{"start":10447.318,"end":10469.9,"text":"部長您同意嗎我完全同意委員的說法原住民族他的文化的多樣性跟他的整個人才的一個培育能夠怎麼樣讓凸顯他的一個價值我想這都是原民會跟教育部共同在努力那剛才委員所關心的原住民族學校制度這一個基本上是"},{"start":10471.542,"end":10485.996,"text":"延民會在跟國教院上的一些合作我們也非常希望能夠理出一個更好的一些模式那目前教育部在原住民的實驗學校裡面國中小有48所"},{"start":10487.177,"end":10514.073,"text":"那確實我們這些年來也對這個原住民教育我想委員也長期關心像我也來到520到現在去八蘭花學校裡面也去看了這原住民學校這個學校裡面確實他們展現了不管不僅在原住民民族文化上的保留結合現有的課程永續校園包含國際教育都做得非常好所以我們也一直期待這一個"},{"start":10515.074,"end":10532.726,"text":"第一所的這個實驗原住民的實驗學校能夠在八蘭花裡面就先能夠成立那麼國教署在這個部分也全力的在支持希望能夠朝那個方向能夠來讓原住民在整個教育的一個銜接上"},{"start":10533.887,"end":10556.277,"text":"謝謝部長所以部長的意思是說願意來支持我剛才所講的不僅僅是原住民族學校制度的研究計劃案來支持原住民族這些實驗學校明年即將屆滿10年那麼它的何去何從這個部分也要成立一個計劃案再來就是這些年"},{"start":10556.937,"end":10576.085,"text":"各個學校所研發的這些課程教材教法也希望有一個計劃案能夠去做一個整合分析這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告是可以的那就謝謝因為課程我們現在有很多的這些每年都有在爭研究院的一個教材"},{"start":10577.346,"end":10589.954,"text":"我希望有一個整合性的研究方案我衝個十秒一下 委員剛才講的民族學校的部分現在是園民會的權責那正跟國教院就一些學術上的合作這個計畫剛剛部長有表達樂觀其成也會到辦公室做說明至於教育部的權責48所實驗學校的部分剛剛部長有特別講到像八南華這邊很有誠的學校我們會從旁就這48校所進行的這過往"},{"start":10605.804,"end":10634.533,"text":"實驗的情形就一些整理這個我們也會跟國教院來合作那就委託國教院我希望能夠做這些計劃案好不好因為院長也在這邊那第二個部分我也要來跟部長就是來做一個建議其實我在2016年就是我離開學校的最後一年我有跟當時的部長有去做一個建言我說因為我們已經在推動民主教育"},{"start":10635.563,"end":10654.09,"text":"而且是全面的推展 園民會教育部都非常的給力可是我們的學習場域像我們這些校舍都是早期1960 1970 1980年代的這一些非常樣板一致的這種校舍"},{"start":10654.87,"end":10673.215,"text":"所以呢在推動民族教育很重要的就是文化學習長育所以特別希望能夠推動一個原住民學校的新校園運動那這個是一個中長期計畫106到110已經結束那110到114也就是到今年呢它的名稱叫做"},{"start":10673.955,"end":10697.141,"text":"營造原住民族文化學習場域計畫就是將課程教學結合到學校場域那提供各個學校可以來申請經費但是我今天要講的是因為它過去補助的對象是原住民重點學校以及非原住民重點學校要原民學生達70人以上的都會學校那這個部分"},{"start":10698.061,"end":10711.54,"text":"我在想因為這八年來大概幾乎所有的學校都有來申請可是我們來看一下這些都會區的學校像新北市我們可以看得到街道的學校學生如果要達到70人以上"},{"start":10713.979,"end":10733.592,"text":"沒有幾個學校符合就兩間三間在我們的六都幾乎都是如此可是有沒有學校想要去為他們的原住民孩子以及非原住民孩子在學校能夠去建置這樣的一個文化學校長育有的"},{"start":10734.272,"end":10752.025,"text":"所以呢 依然有學校有這個心 他們會來跟我們澄清說教育部 國教署 能不能夠也提供他們一些經費那我很贊同的原因是 我們一直談全民原教 全民原教"},{"start":10753.462,"end":10774.398,"text":"原住民族教育法的對象不是原住民而已是全體國民所以這樣的一個訴求我認為非常的合理那部長你覺得如果未來115年度開始新一期的中長城計畫能不能夠去納入所有的學校"},{"start":10776.854,"end":10800.835,"text":"我想感謝委員的這個提醒確實我完全同意委員所提的我們這個台灣的可貴就是來自於多元族群多元文化它的美就是因為大家不一樣然後能夠彼此認識透過認識理解欣賞然後甚至能夠有一些推廣"},{"start":10801.556,"end":10814.526,"text":"那原住民學校如果我們一般的學生學校裡邊都會的學校裡邊他對原住民教育或者文化上的推動我想我們會來編列一些相關的行為我覺得可以用集聚學生數的集聚來協助這個我們的"},{"start":10820.29,"end":10837.221,"text":"謝謝 謝謝部長那最後一個問題就是關於大家很關心的校事會議部長您先看一下前陣子我們幾個委員處理台東的一個學前特幼班的兒虐案那調查報告已經出來了那是"},{"start":10838.862,"end":10857.438,"text":"確有歧視那整個處置也都完畢我只是要請您看一下這個是法定代理人也就是家長他拿到的調查報告六頁啦你看一下馬承這個樣子家長說他完全不知道孩子到底發生了什麼事"},{"start":10859.235,"end":10881.851,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們也要約束規範一下啦我怎麼知道他到底碼的是不是真的需要碼的我想這個部分您了解一下那為什麼我要提到這個問題因為我們的幼教輔導管教系統在處理這些案件其實也有人詬病說"},{"start":10883.494,"end":10905.192,"text":"會造成兩種極端就是真正不適應的教師就像剛才這個碼的六張這個報告得不到真相那也有一些是無辜的他可能遭到濫訴覺得身心俱疲那我們來看一下國小的校安通報關於師生管教衝突"},{"start":10907.424,"end":10935.312,"text":"110年2171件111年成長到2524件我要特別講112年4120件我還沒看到113年的資料數據但是這樣的一個成長的比率實在是很驚人所以為什麼很多人關心這件事情那我們來看一下為什麼會這樣當然我們可以理解"},{"start":10936.553,"end":10960.99,"text":"公立學校教室被調查的流程我們都知道有的是家長陳情就做校方通報有的是家長直接跟教育局投訴那他有他的流程現在重點是到了校事會議的時候我們很多的學校會感到很困擾那為什麼會困擾因為就是爛數"},{"start":10962.762,"end":10964.165,"text":"他會覺得可能費時費錢"},{"start":10967.25,"end":10993.427,"text":"那這個部分我有看到教育部有回應教育部說113年修正的高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或之前辦法有明定了已經有寫了就是說可以不受理的事項例如非屬性平肢體霸凌的這種是一定要受理的但是有很多是沒有具體內容有很多是匿名卷舉"},{"start":10995.549,"end":11013.977,"text":"像這種的當然學校可以不受理可是我要跟部長報告的就是說幾乎全部都會成案因為就像我這種民意代表地方的議員他很怕上媒體然後很怕民代施壓關切"},{"start":11015.859,"end":11038.062,"text":"所以乾脆通通受理 通通懲案 學校不敢負擔其責任然後在這個當中 他要學校的校事會議 校長 家長的代表行政人員代表 學校教師代表 一個是公正人士也就是說五位當中 他只會評五位 因為每一個都要錢嘛"},{"start":11038.904,"end":11047.702,"text":"學校還要負擔那個給出席費用所以呢他通常就是盡量五個人三個人那這當中四個人"},{"start":11048.976,"end":11071.653,"text":"我們原本期待校士會議是中立的可是我剛剛講的校長家長的代表行政人員學校教師會本來我們期待他們中立但是他們不敢中立而且他們的關係很緊密所以我講這些只是說其實很多很多在意的只是什麼它的核心是什麼就是不希望爛訴"},{"start":11073.274,"end":11088.327,"text":"不希望冤枉然後呢 不希望造成學校的一個很大的行政負擔或心理的壓力我想那個核心是在這個地方因為太多的投訴會說長太高這個不適合教幼兒園的老師"},{"start":11094.982,"end":11111.916,"text":"校方也不知道到底要呈案還是不呈案或者是說控訴某個老師他不教孩子唱國歌之類的那對學校來講到底呈案不呈案到底是不是具體的內容這個很辛苦所以我在這邊就是提到"},{"start":11112.637,"end":11132.231,"text":"我的訴求就是說針對目前教師這一些校事會議的投訴校事會議受理案件的樣態那教育部是不是應該可以做一個相關統計然後做一個處遇指引的手冊那我先請教一下部長有沒有做過這個相關的統計署長"},{"start":11135.925,"end":11153.052,"text":"我簡單說明一下兩件事第一個新的解併辦法它是因應當時不當管教走一條路霸凌走一條路現場不堪起擾走不會完所以把它合併之後獲得大家的認同"},{"start":11153.832,"end":11171.794,"text":"那接著是學校內怎麼讓這件事其實一個案件到底走考核還走解聘他本來就已經在做只是整合在這個解聘辦法內所以剛剛委員有看到受不受理以及決定走考核或決定走"},{"start":11172.735,"end":11192.97,"text":"停解聘都在那個辦法內因此他前端做案件的整合不要有多個委員會在終端做剛才講的處置上可以由學校決定只要走考核就好不用整理調查小組所以整套如果嚴謹的執行是去解決以往來的不利至於您剛才提到現行"},{"start":11194.051,"end":11211.747,"text":"這個去年4月19號運作至今超過一年部長也要求我們可以做一個檢視是這個目前在做整理中好謝謝好那很好我就是希望說不要造成校方的一個困擾那最好就是有已經走了一年了那有相關的統計樣態的一個分類處遇的指引原則畢竟"},{"start":11216.992,"end":11237.024,"text":"孩子是我們最重要的有快樂的老師才有快樂的孩子那我覺得學校畢竟是我們學校的老師是學校最重要的資產我們都是要來服務我們的孩子所以我想這個部分希望說能夠去重視爛素這樣的一個狀態那怎麼樣去改善這個才是一個我們最關切的部分"},{"start":11243.228,"end":11253.956,"text":"那在這邊就謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝吳立華委員的質詢 官員請回座我們接下來有請羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員質詢羅廷偉委員"},{"start":11273.649,"end":11283.431,"text":"好部長辛苦了部長你還記得夜光天使嗎還記得嗎沒關係不記得可以講我不會考試慢慢來我等你沒關係幫忙做課後的一個輔導到晚上"},{"start":11300.424,"end":11318.145,"text":"不好意思聲音可能要大聲一點麥克風可能沒有對到夜光天使點燈專案計畫我想在97年9月起呢課後照顧延伸至夜間我們在推動這個國小的辦理那目前我們一直在延伸那我也有跟5月27號"},{"start":11319.887,"end":11345.043,"text":"我們在去年的時候部長就職沒多久我就有向你爭取要事辦延伸至國中夜間國小的寒暑假那時候非常感謝你也有持續的承諾幫我們那也變成台中市是第一個事辦那目前呢在事辦的期間113年7月1日到114年7月31日我們共事辦了三所國中一所國小"},{"start":11345.851,"end":11365.558,"text":"育嬰、市育、東風以及樂業國小試辦的狀況都不錯那我們也有稍微去詢問他們的一個試辦意願願不願意繼續續辦那部長想跟你請問一下是否願意支持夜光天使繼續試辦延伸至國中的一個夜間教育政策"},{"start":11366.981,"end":11386.681,"text":"謝謝委員關心國中生的一個學習成長的一個空間那因為從委員剛才所提的我們確實感謝委員的關心然後成校學校也有認為他的一個一定的效益我們這國教署會跟台中市政府有一個後續的一個看怎麼樣來能夠讓這個計畫能夠繼續能夠延續這樣子我先講喔"},{"start":11391.105,"end":11406.28,"text":"首次試辦國中夜間就獲得不錯的評價不管是家長端學生端教師學校這個部分我們也有去詢問所以基本上第一我們問到三所國中都有意願要繼續續辦"},{"start":11408.699,"end":11429.647,"text":"這一點我要先帶為他們來轉達當然國小的部分他們說沒有需求那我也要跟您報告就國小這部分因為第一他們的夜間課後照顧第二他們可能在市區的部分可能資源也豐富但是國中的部分因為孩子有成長的一個過程需要更多的關切所以三所國中都說OK"},{"start":11430.543,"end":11450.048,"text":"第二我們也詢問教育局因為有部分地方要自籌那教育局他也有意願願意繼續來編列這樣的預算所以才要跟您特別再拜託每一位學生我們都不可放棄這是教育的宗旨但施辦的計畫初步成果顯示對於弱勢的國中生"},{"start":11450.908,"end":11461.385,"text":"在情感的支持學習自信生活照顧有明顯的助益而且能夠減輕家庭的負擔所以我們希望未來若能穩定的經費與師資並加強學業的輔導有望進一步縮小學習的落差"},{"start":11466.212,"end":11481.751,"text":"我想脫貧是一個成長過程中很漫長的一條路但是教育顯然是一個公平的途徑所以我想在這個新興學子的教育制度的一個建置之下有向上流動的一個機會我希望您能夠繼續支持可以嗎"},{"start":11483.231,"end":11508.757,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為夜光天使確實委員當時所提出來的我們比較是偏鄉或者非常會是這些國中他確實資源相對比較少相對於市區所以我想那一個目標那一個方向我們會會來繼續來支持我想國教署來跟台中市教育局看怎麼樣有一個這個持續來支持這樣的一個對國中生有一個這個課後放學後的"},{"start":11510.757,"end":11537.367,"text":"包括到晚上的一些更多的照顧他確實是能夠彌補這一個比較偏鄉跟非山非市的學校的資源相對不足的部長 我可以相信城鄉有差距非山非市這個部分我想這個部分上都需要給予更多的資源 我都支持但是你不能否認市區的確有一些孩子他們有可能也是有一些資源上的落差"},{"start":11538.226,"end":11557.216,"text":"那所以在這個部分上我也希望說市區有弱勢的孩子我們也都有去看這些事辦的國中有去了解孩子他目前的這些相關生活標準相關的一些生活是不是需要給予一些幫助基本上老師都有做第一線的去做"},{"start":11557.816,"end":11577.467,"text":"跟我們報告那個大方向我們是樂意來支持的就是說比較詳細的那個推動是不是容我請這個署長跟這個台中市教育局我們這個來進一步的磋商啦好不好但是我們希望整體的這個目標不要改變就是持續的續辦"},{"start":11579.088,"end":11595.294,"text":"第二個想跟請問像今天很多的委員都在詢問也都很關切川普將暫停外國學生簽證面談將審查申請人的一個社群帳號這件事情看起來好像是屬實啊您有掌握嗎教育部"},{"start":11597.213,"end":11613.158,"text":"我們確實是從這個相關的一些報導我們也做了一些因應的措施那目前對於這個社群媒體的審查標準不明那教育部是否已經有主動發布提醒協助我們相關的學生的權益呢"},{"start":11616.264,"end":11630.671,"text":"我們已經透過駐外單位我們的教育組提醒我們在美國的留學生要注意相關的訊息以及對於當地國的法令必須要遵守"},{"start":11631.707,"end":11658.187,"text":"我想針對這個台灣高等教育的國際化佈局以及現階段已就讀跟即將入學哈佛的學生教育部有沒有應變的措施協助學生多元的選擇留學的一個國家並強化與其他國家的學術合作這也是我們很關切的面對這一個危機能不能變成轉機這部分教育部能不能加強去部署這部分我希望部長您覺得呢"},{"start":11659.059,"end":11685.673,"text":"是的我想我們確實因應這個川普政府對這個美國高等教育他有一些不一樣的一些這個期待那我們也確實也利用這個裡面看到可能有一些優秀的事實上的一個流動怎麼樣能夠有機會來到台灣為台灣培養這個人才那另外還有一個來自於本國的這些留學生怎麼樣一些"},{"start":11688.789,"end":11705.419,"text":"這個學習權益上的一些照顧包含這一個來自於全世界到這一個哈佛大學讀書的或者其他學校他們願意轉到台灣來我想這都是我們在積極在努力的我想這應變措施後續的資料可不可以給我們一下"},{"start":11707.352,"end":11726.861,"text":"可以的可以嗎有準備嗎可以可以可以沒有問題沒有問題好那我們想了解一下那第三個想跟你請問一下就是高中校園的手機納管教育部21日預告高級中等學校以下學校犧牲攜帶的行動載具到校管理的一個原則草案"},{"start":11727.361,"end":11751.553,"text":"其中高中訂定的管理規範應邀集教師、家長、學生各代表召開會議共同探討管理的一個機制請問教育部在制定高中校園手機管理的政策時是否參考國際間的相關經驗跟研究成果這些國家怎麼做?國際經驗在台灣推動有什麼幫助?這部分你有掌握嗎?"},{"start":11752.39,"end":11771.198,"text":"跟我們報告,確實這一個手機的管理,我們從學理、國際的研究,包括台灣衛護部的這個資料,我們確實覺得國外有許多的這些對學生學習,怎麼樣創造一個更好的環境,包含手機的一個管理。"},{"start":11772.638,"end":11799.394,"text":"這我們整個團隊用了將近一年的時間來做一個從學理到實務的規劃所以剛才有委員特別提到所以我們在這個整個管理的一個辦法裡面不是一個叫做集中管理一句話就解決並不是這樣的我們連這個怎麼樣保管的機制都有四種選項也希望讓學生能夠跟家長跟老師有充分的一個討論完"},{"start":11801.255,"end":11824.017,"text":"形成一個學校的...這是我要說的原本高中的各校就有自己的使用原則現在草案一出來看起來偏向逐步趨延但是在這個背景下會不會變成統一納管這部分我想說的是草案說應邀集教師、家長、學生各方代表召開會議請問學生的代表要怎麼產生"},{"start":11826.311,"end":11830.227,"text":"延伸代表這一個部分我們還是讓學校裡面他們"},{"start":11832.219,"end":11859.957,"text":"有一個透過一個民主化的過程來討論然後讓學生看由學生自己來領選或者各班派代表或者這個部分我們事實上比較細節的部分我們是尊重這個學校但我要講的是說草案雖然規定學校討論手機管理的時候學生代表應戰委員會三分之一但最終決策仍需校務會議通過而校務會議學生的代表比例僅有8%"},{"start":11861.678,"end":11888.401,"text":"部長如何確保校務會議上學生在決策過程中有實質參與這部分是不是也應該要幫忙協助所以不是只是在探討草案校務會議也是很重要的決策過程現在比較令人擔心的是關於共識怎麼產生產生的過程有沒有符合民主機制而不是我們直接說要民主機制可是你看校務會議校務會議最後才可以通過"},{"start":11889.982,"end":11913.173,"text":"我想校園民主化這本來就是我們基本的一個精神啦所以通常我也相信我們第一線上的校長或者老師當一個前面的一些共識管理的方式已經有一個共識提校務會議的時候除非他的過程裡邊有一些缺乏這個正當性所以你的意思是校務會議要尊重"},{"start":11914.894,"end":11936.089,"text":"這個所謂的共識就是我們的我們基本上的精神也是朝那個方向所以共識如果產生校務會議應該尊重是那好這是你說的喔在草案中我們看到學生的申訴救濟的一個機制就是向本校圈圈處市學生申訴評議委員會提起申訴請問部長"},{"start":11937.31,"end":11965.453,"text":"學生申訴與救濟的機制將如何落實教育部是否有上級的申訴管道避免學校校內的自我審查產生不公有沒有考慮上級的申訴管道委員這個申訴管道這個建制是透過現行既已建制的那個程序所以它是既有的程序所以我們這樣嫁接之後它是在合法的基礎上來運作申訴它的流程"},{"start":11966.325,"end":11991.039,"text":"好 所以這部分我還是要提醒讓他們能夠保有更彈性的一個申訴管道因為基本上我們就怕在校園校內自我審查的時候有這些不公或者是畢竟是在學校內大家作為老師上也有一些不方便 不好意思的可能性都有產生這個在申訴的過程可能會受理或者是過程會讓人家有疑義"},{"start":11992.28,"end":12008.652,"text":"這個部分我們都希望能夠盡量的公開透明甚至有上級的申訴管道我希望政策在推動的過程共識是經過民主機制討論出來而不是教師家長來做決定那當然我們也相信在這個利益良善的一個政策上"},{"start":12009.292,"end":12022.968,"text":"如何落實這也是很大的一個智慧尤其老師也很擔憂他們在落實的過程會不會遇到更多的一些困境我們也要關注老師的這個部分的權益這個部分我要再一次的提醒部長"},{"start":12024.629,"end":12050.116,"text":"四個我想跟你請問一下部長討論新北市三峽北大國小所發生的重大車禍案這起車禍不僅暴露了這個學區周邊道路設計管理的一個重大缺失更凸顯學生這個通學的安全能有極大的改善空間部長教育部對於全國學校通學步道的安全現況有何掌握現階段的一個具體數據跟檢討有嗎"},{"start":12054.639,"end":12082.124,"text":"報告委員這十六會後我們大概今天之內跟您回報一下我們之前有基金會去年十二月針對六都十九所學校抽驗檢查都不及格檢核的平均分數是33.79分請問部長教育部如何在中央其他的部會交通部內政部地方政府合作強化學區的周邊交通安全教育部應不應該也幫忙一起來處理"},{"start":12083.004,"end":12108.915,"text":"再跟委員回報兩點 第一點是剛才部長有講過跟內政部警政署一直都有合作來盤點比較危險的學校會檢送給內政部內政部也會跟當地的地區警員或相關的機制有一個網絡來處理第二點是有關通學步道部分跟內政部國土署有一個長年期的計畫國土署會就學校周邊跟延伸至社區有一些通學步道的設置跟補助"},{"start":12109.975,"end":12127.375,"text":"這點我們會給您你講這個我都知道啦但是現階段去年12月這個基金會六都19所學校平均33.79分全數都不及格所以可以顯現過往這些跨部位的成效有限今天趙偉站起來 趙偉最後一分鐘"},{"start":12128.616,"end":12156.261,"text":"我們看到這些成效有限所以財會基金會評比這麼差我今天就要講根據屏東縣教育產業工會的公文指出導護制度與接送區域的規劃畏懼一致性強制性各校執行成效不一以及交通安全的教育宣導不足學童家長自我防護合作意識代加強"},{"start":12157.341,"end":12182.554,"text":"部長這一個公文你認不認同我想各個學校裡面確實它有它的差異性我們怎麼樣去共同從中央到地方跨部會跨級處來合作讓學童有一個更好的一個上放學更安全的一個環境我想我們來努力很多要改善啦部長"},{"start":12183.354,"end":12196.544,"text":"教師導護一直是台灣中小學常見的校園安全工作但是教師本身就非專業的交通指揮人員面對複雜的交通狀況教師導護還要面臨安全風險你們政治也說"},{"start":12197.898,"end":12213.713,"text":"我們現階段就呼籲交通導護不是老師的業務啊有關教師導護的政策特別是站在降低教師應執行導護發生意外之風險相關責任爭議上教師導護的政策有沒有重新思考其必要性空間"},{"start":12215.506,"end":12233.897,"text":"部長我想我們這個部分我們會繼續來努力教師的主要責任就是教學輔導學生他沒有受過專業的訓練交通指揮不是說我們不支持但是教師畢竟不是警察也沒有公權力然後仍然要教師來導護那應該給予什麼樣的訓練給予什麼樣的保障"},{"start":12238.22,"end":12261.438,"text":"你要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草你要馬兒能夠去做這樣子的一個服務但是你卻沒有給予相關的支持這是我要提出的啊所以這份公文我們再一次的呼籲教育部應該重視這樣的問題我們不是反對他們去而是給予該強度的支持協助他們的權益這部分應該要做到部長"},{"start":12262.259,"end":12278.512,"text":"拖很久了希望你能夠有所突破我想我們這一個部分我們會跟地方一起來合作來努力那幾個月內可以努力完有一個成果這個他確實有各地方的一個這個社區都會區跟那什麼時候要溝通什麼時候要溝通溝通的會議內容什麼時候給我們我們兩個月內兩個月內"},{"start":12286.999,"end":12304.731,"text":"希望我等得到這個部分不要說超過了兩個月又再一次兩個月再一次兩個月上一次就跟你講了正式在講說這個部分他也是覺得交通導護有疑義講到現在我都還沒有等到相關的一些具體改善"},{"start":12306.259,"end":12328.904,"text":"對不起這一個我不曉得我們業次當時有承諾委員那我想我們行政上我們他現在署長給我的訊息是他還沒有520還沒進來之前他事實上他有這樣的一個主張那當然我想我們在整個政策裡面我們全面來了解好啦一年過了又一年真的要做啦好不好拜託拜託"},{"start":12332.834,"end":12336.429,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢官員請回座我們接下來休息五分鐘"},{"start":12646.614,"end":12672.014,"text":"好 會議繼續好 謝謝好 我們接下來有請吳佩奕委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請教育部政部長"},{"start":12673.001,"end":12673.463,"text":"有請部長貝茲勳 謝謝"},{"start":12680.151,"end":12687.877,"text":"委員好部長好首先要請教我們葉秉成次長因為性平的疑慮現在是送交教育部的性平會要來進行調查那我今天要請教的是因為外界也很關心我們看一下現在教育部性平會的成員名單首先性平會的主委就是我們部長就是部長您再來我們次長"},{"start":12705.171,"end":12719.959,"text":"也是性評會委員包括署長以及兩位司長一共有五位我們教育部內部的人員都是我們性評會的成員而其中主委就是部長所以外界會關切送到教育部的性評會來調查他是不是就代表的中立跟客觀呢目前教育部的性評會在調查小組的部分是不是都是外部委員"},{"start":12730.803,"end":12745.364,"text":"跟我們報告是的調查小組有外部委員但是調查小組的結果還是要來開性評論所以我現在要要求教育部依據其實也是我們教育部網站上面的資料就是我們在"},{"start":12746.505,"end":12760.537,"text":"性平的這個調查程序上呢什麼叫做重大瑕疵教育部也給各界一個說明其實其中呢依照我們的行政程序法三十二三十三條第一個三十二條是在講說如果呢在調查程序當中當事人"},{"start":12764.821,"end":12778.897,"text":"他應該要迴避而我認為本案其實教育部就是當事人所以包含了部長次長司長都應該要迴避第二如果依照行政程序法第33條他在講說那公務員如果你有這個"},{"start":12780.399,"end":12784.543,"text":"職務執行有偏頗之餘者就是有這樣的一律的人你也可以申請迴避這個我在看啊部長因為成員裡面有兩位司長這個學特司甚至是葉次長督導的你要司長"},{"start":12797.694,"end":12801.516,"text":"來調查甚至最後他可能沒參與調查但他之後可能有處置次長這個在職場上面有違我們正常的經驗法則所以我認為在性評會裡面我們教育部包含了部長次長署長兩位司長我們五位成員都應該要迴避部長可不可以承諾"},{"start":12818.982,"end":12844.072,"text":"我想確實在這個利害關係人裡面他是應該要迴避的 這個我是可以承諾的好 我覺得我們一定要以最高的標準甚至優於法規的最高標準來進行接下來的性品調查才能夠重新贏得社會各界的信任因為你們是我們中華民國台灣教育的最高主管機關一定要用最嚴謹的態度來看待"},{"start":12846.073,"end":12866.695,"text":"接下來呢有關於台大的案件還是有一個部分我必須要跟部長來討論因為在監察院的報告當中其實至今我們能夠看到的報告就是監察院這一份報告監察院的報告去年七月份就出來了裡面的第四頁我認為有一個非常大的問題"},{"start":12869.182,"end":12881.567,"text":"裡面監察院調查的時候經有訪談他指出這一位當事學生他多次跟學校的心理師說拜託不要再叫我去找宿舍輔導員了結果心理師卻跟當事學生說"},{"start":12886.268,"end":12893.453,"text":"這個輔導員啊他是離你最靠近而且安全的角色言下之意是說你就去找輔導員沒有問題再來他除了叫學生去找輔導員以外在監察院調查裡面還說台大有一個工作人員B員他是誰我們不知道但是他有三次聯繫了"},{"start":12909.542,"end":12919.184,"text":"宿舍輔導員也就是可能的加害人聯繫他做什麼呢要這個宿舍輔導員去多關心當事學生請可能的加害人去關切可能的受害人請郎師去關心被害學生這如果在其他的師生的性別案件是這樣喔"},{"start":12933.885,"end":12938.166,"text":"假設他是狼當時在調查當中嘛假設他是狼就是引狼入室啊部長 你在看到這個文字你有沒有覺得非常的奇怪非常的不恰當這是發生在台大校園裡面的事情喔這個我認為甚至不到性評會這個是重大的行政疏失"},{"start":12957.056,"end":12966.819,"text":"非常重大的行政疏失台大的校園 這是監察院的報告我講的不是性評會的報告監察院報告去年七月就告訴我們有這樣的情況了結果呢到現在我們沒有去詢問說台大為什麼做這樣的處置"},{"start":12976.826,"end":12989.234,"text":"也有可能當時的心理師他跟這個月性平案件要保密嘛也許他們沒有收到這個相關的資訊也許是這樣造成了不當的處置但是這確實是不當那如誠如部長您今天受訪講的我們要檢討並且我們要避免同樣的情勢下一次再次發生對吧但是依我在看台大這個處置這麼大的疏失到今天沒有被檢討"},{"start":13007.335,"end":13029.138,"text":"同樣的事情就絕對還會再發生你怎麼會叫可能的加害人去關切可能的受害人而且這個台大的B員台大的工作人員他是什麼職務他是不是長官所謂的希望他多關心被害學生的這個希望他當中有沒有權利的關係"},{"start":13031.479,"end":13048.894,"text":"這個一定要去調查清楚所以部長現在我們案件也送信評會就是要去重新檢視台大的程序但是在我們已知的監察院公開在網路上面全國國人都可以看到的報告當中這一段的描述我認為已經明確的不當了"},{"start":13051.776,"end":13063.227,"text":"所以一定要要求台大如果有行政疏失 行政不當而教育部沒有要求台大檢討的話部長 那就是我們教育部的督導不周就是我們教育部的督導疏失了我們一定要去把它調查清楚 國會部長"},{"start":13068.317,"end":13092.454,"text":"可以的我想謝謝委員台大這樣的一個處理我想他在行政上確實有許多我們應該要更進一步的去理解了解他的一個可能造成的傷害部長我們要再積極我們是最高主管機關這一份報告我剛剛講了去年七月就公開在網路上了至今台大沒有被檢討這當中有沒有行政責任信憑會是信憑會學校有行政責任"},{"start":13098.378,"end":13109.167,"text":"誰去要求輔導員三次叫他去關切學生誰一定要調查清楚好不好好這個性平案件真的全台灣都非常關切尤其是在校園裡面很遺憾我們看到東華大學也發生了性侵案件"},{"start":13120.711,"end":13143.448,"text":"以及以性侵來起訴那他是師對師學校裡面的男性老師性侵女教師這個案件目前同時性評會重啟調查因為他司法已經起訴了以及在司法當中但我今天要請教育部的是因為他是師對師適用的是我們性評工作法"},{"start":13145.063,"end":13171.388,"text":"的第十二第十三條第十二條是說這一個性騷跟性侵害案件同等適用十三條是說雇主也就是以這樣來說東華大學校方應該要避免申訴人受性騷擾或性侵情形再度發生你有責任要避免情況再度發生而且你要有相關的措施要有所作為十三之一條"},{"start":13173.186,"end":13191.944,"text":"就是說過主你是有權利得暫時停止或被申訴人之職務就是你可以讓他停止的我現在想要請問教育部有沒有去了解東華大學在這個案件當中有沒有以性供法來處置有沒有相關的措施"},{"start":13197.346,"end":13216.013,"text":"高華大學有沒有盡到避免這個受害的申訴人持續受到可能的危險跟我們報告這個5月24當時加害者已經被這一個在調查期間這一個停職半年那詳細的是不是請這一個市長來"},{"start":13216.633,"end":13235.35,"text":"5月24號就是前幾天學校依照他們的相關程序組成了調查小組也在啟動所謂的性評那在性評的調查過程當中已經決意先把這位教師給停職的處分好 非常好這個案件發生的時間是什麼時候"},{"start":13238.396,"end":13257.427,"text":"跟委員報告這個因為他當初在處理上面其實這個好去年八月起訴但是這一位老師直到今年也就是現在五月份才被停職部長你知道嗎在學校裡面甚至是有學生主動發起"},{"start":13261.883,"end":13286.513,"text":"護衛隊來保護這位女性教師因為有長達從去年八月到今年五月長達也是將近一年的時間這一個已經性侵起訴的男性教師都還在學校裡面那女性教師她在出入的時候她都要盡量去避免有機會去碰觸到"},{"start":13288.231,"end":13314.485,"text":"所以我還是想要再次提醒教育部我們的督導責任我認為應當可以更加積極因為這個案件在法規上面我覺得很明確適用信工法了那東華大學如果可以早一點開始開啟這個會議的話也許我們會早一點做出停職的措施那這個教師的環境可以早一點"},{"start":13315.987,"end":13334.596,"text":"比較安全我們學校老師的安全性平的環境不應該是到最後由學生要來發起互惠甚至學生去幫老師送便當學生看不下去了站出來保護老師希望我們教育部可以更積極最後一個我"},{"start":13335.396,"end":13361.885,"text":"抱歉主席給我一點時間一樣是性侵案件台中幼兒園發生一起四歲的女童被跆拳道教練性侵案件那因為去年台北市培諾米達幼兒園性侵案狼屍案之後我們跟教育部一直在討論要去修正相關的法規為什麼因為在台北市培諾米達案件當中當時大家最沒有辦法接受的是家長已經知道性侵的情勢了"},{"start":13362.765,"end":13389.615,"text":"但是要去調監視器要甚至家長要看調查報告都百般的被阻撓家長不能看報告這讓家長非常的惡賜傷害所以我們今年1月教育部你們已經修正相關的規定跟法規其中總總這有好幾條我覺得最重要的就是我們增加了受害幼童家長可以調閱調查報告的規定所以我現在想要請教教育部有沒有去了解台中這個案件我們有沒有讓家長看調查報告"},{"start":13393.286,"end":13405.849,"text":"有沒有適用心法這有適用心法但是這個詳細的情況是不是容我們跟台中市完成了比較確定的了解之後今天之內跟您回報好 請務必確定我要感謝委員修了兩個辦法還有檢核表也都給了最後在這個兩週內我們還會給他一個運用的手冊所以四件事都有照委員這個方向"},{"start":13417.551,"end":13437.226,"text":"我們修法是為了保護孩子保護家長所以拜託我不要再看到有家長想要看報告卻被百般阻農的情況請你們務必要了解法規有沒有被落實好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝吳佩奕委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請范雲委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":13447.455,"end":13447.736,"text":"有請部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":13455.287,"end":13461.348,"text":"委員好部長好我想關於性平案件就是說教育部的相關的處置那剛剛今天早上郭育群委員還有張雅玲委員還有剛剛吳佩儀委員那都有表達他們的非常的重視那張雅玲委員有三點要求吳佩儀委員也有對調查性平會的運作希望你們立意迴避那我想他們所講的部分那我都支持"},{"start":13484.133,"end":13503.868,"text":"那這不是個別委員那部長應該很清楚我們七位民進黨的教文委員兩次公文要求兩次跟你們包含部長、次長當面討論要求那如果再加上我個人更早以前的職選那我們一直對你們的回覆是不滿意的"},{"start":13504.688,"end":13519.604,"text":"那我覺得這個部分我想再重申他其實是教育部系統性的問題那剛剛張雅玲委員是說你們的性平意識那其實就台大來看台大也產生了系統性的問題"},{"start":13520.385,"end":13529.593,"text":"那為什麼這樣講就是形式主義上好像你們認為是合法的可是如果從性平意識跟性別評審教育法的精神來看你們用的是最低標然後這個部分那今天會拖到就是這麼多的委員的集體聲明"},{"start":13539.161,"end":13550.583,"text":"那真的希望教育部把危機變成轉機好好的徹底檢討那我想部長這個部分因為我們後續都會監督部長應該可以同意我所講的吧"},{"start":13552.335,"end":13580.914,"text":"謝謝委員的關心確實我們現在是從這個方向在努力也會深切檢討我想因為這件事情還有加上最近的手機爭議真的讓全國的不管是大學生或是高中生等會對教育部有一些信心危機我想我們都在努力希望建立不管是性平的制度或者是兒少表義權"},{"start":13581.875,"end":13598.902,"text":"就是讓大家看到教育部是重視的因為如果教育部不重視性平機制那全國的校長、老師、學生、家長就是會有很大的憂慮如果教育部不重視兒少表義權我想青年學生也不能接受所以這個手機爭議出來的時候當然我們知道後來國教署長、司長都有幫忙解釋"},{"start":13607.105,"end":13633.395,"text":"今天並不是政策發布會是媒體問然後部長突然說出集中保管九月上路就有很多的爭議我在第一時間就邀集了全國遠從屏中高雄都有來的高中職學生代表跟教育部面對面你看那個照片來了這麼多人他們真的是緊急的都很願意來立法院那謝謝當天祖密到了資料司長到國教署長也都到"},{"start":13635.597,"end":13652.737,"text":"資料司長還有幫忙致歉說之前的確沒有諮詢足夠的學生當然當天真的是炮聲隆隆那天主要的訴求一個是高中生應該要分階段管理因為高中生的自主程度跟國中小不一樣"},{"start":13653.758,"end":13662.745,"text":"還有校內民主學生代表這兩個部分謝謝教育部有納入你們後來公布的草案中那我第一時間也為了彌補這個兒少表義權的部分就要求教育部"},{"start":13669.249,"end":13669.85,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13689.087,"end":13700.944,"text":"今天是不是能夠代表教育部到場聆聽讓大家感受到部長您非常的重視青少年表義權願意聆聽高中生對這個草案的看法呢"},{"start":13704.054,"end":13727.112,"text":"謝謝委員關心我想這個星期天的這個6月1號署長跟市長都會親自參加那我這個部分我來努力我來看因為有一些既定的事情我希望部長可以努力啦因為我相信以您的心理學的背景對這件事情的懇切態度那能夠讓高中生感受到您願意聆聽重視兒少表義權那而且當天我們知道的是"},{"start":13731.095,"end":13759.53,"text":"有120位不只是全國的高中生還有線上那剛剛也有高中生反應說好像只有45個人發言那我是希望無論如何那高中生能夠炮聲隆隆對教育部有批判性的意見應該是我們民主的成果那其實在座談會的時候我也跟他們講說鄭部長一定很高興看到你們對於政府的政策有意見因為這是我們民主的成果"},{"start":13759.81,"end":13766.933,"text":"我們應該要驕傲才對所以我真的非常的希望第一個當天能夠讓越多的學生發言越好那書面意見也應該更開放那線上也要有表達意見的機會那這部分我想部長都聽到了那針對這個政策的部分因為部長一直有提到說你們有收集國際的經驗以我辦公室這邊這個表格就是教育部可以拿去參考這是我們辦公室收集跟整理的"},{"start":13788.283,"end":13814.453,"text":"因為它分散在很多不一樣的新聞聯合國教科文組織也有統計但是這個表格分享出來是我們辦公室做的其實2024年底全世界有79個國家都有手機相關的禁令政策或法規如果我們只看民主國家的話我們這裡列的是歐美民主國家跟亞洲我們認為值得參考的日本韓國新加坡部長你可以看到"},{"start":13816.134,"end":13828.988,"text":"雖然全國統一有相關的禁用政策是多數可是高中幾乎都是分級管理不管制高中不管制是民主國家包含日本是這麼做統一"},{"start":13830.41,"end":13846.616,"text":"集中保管的策略是少數我們整理到的只有法國、荷蘭、匈牙利跟瑞典那學校自主規範在幾種方法中選擇的彈性規範也是多數這是我們辦公室整理到的就是國際的狀況"},{"start":13848.698,"end":13865.038,"text":"而且我們看到教育部現在公告的草案我們覺得其實還是太簡略因為全國有3854個學校每個學校狀況不同那他們都要各自討論或執行其實這個指引雖然你們叫做指引但是不夠詳盡"},{"start":13867.842,"end":13884.244,"text":"不知道部長有沒有看過我手上這個我們辦公室找到的英國針對手機政策頒布之後他們教育部的指引部長有看過嗎我手上這份東西網路上有待會兒我可以給您您有沒有看過知道有這個東西"},{"start":13886.732,"end":13898.126,"text":"英國的這個詳細的資料我沒有看但是我大概知道英國的一些相關的那我要講的事情是我待會就可以直接給部長他非常的詳盡這個指引本身就11頁我們的這個草案只有3頁"},{"start":13905.114,"end":13924.961,"text":"英國本領這個相關的政策之後他還有一個說帖這個說帖本身是要告訴每個學校如何跟家長老師跟學生溝通因為這個溝通是非常的繁複的那這個你可以看到這樣一個政策在溝通上要做得多細緻"},{"start":13926.421,"end":13941.412,"text":"然後呢英國的指引有給學校就像你們有給幾個方式可是他很清楚說這四種管理方式各自有的優點跟缺點學校要注意的譬如入校腳手機可能會有ABG個人保管"},{"start":13942.273,"end":13962.19,"text":"禁止使用但不收腳必須要有親師生高度信任就比較是在低就比較像我們現在高中的現狀你看到他的指引這麼的詳盡那可是呢我們並沒有所以我真的希望教育部可以參考英國的這兩份我待會可以直接給部長就是能夠"},{"start":13963.171,"end":13978.891,"text":"提供給學校更詳細的從溝通說帖到政策的指引讓學校在選擇的時候有更清楚那這個部分剛剛部長已經講到你還沒有看過那我想現在我們的部分那真的太少"},{"start":13979.452,"end":14000.995,"text":"另外就是我相信禮拜天高中生也會反映因為在我們辦的30所高中生座談就已經談到了還有最近我也請了幾個高中生代表來跟我直播部長有興趣可以快展看一下你可以看到現在的高中生成熟度像我們當年的大學生因為他們現在的學生議會然後代表各方面"},{"start":14001.536,"end":14026.079,"text":"那他們希望就是說你們所說的學生代表的三分之一的比例能夠比照服醫委員會不要到最後的校務會議中剛剛也有不同政黨的委員談到是不是會被推翻那如果是比同服醫委員會的話就有一個但書的條件那不知道部長有沒有可能參考呢"},{"start":14026.759,"end":14052.626,"text":"就是學生希望說你們在禮拜天之後能夠更清楚的向服役委員會把行動載具委員會明定這個規則中包含說如果是比照服役的話就校務會議在怎麼樣的情況下除非是違法或等等那不得任意修改那明定成員產生的方式剛剛有別的委員有講到那三分之一等等決議的方式不知道部長能不能夠考慮呢"},{"start":14054.914,"end":14079.004,"text":"謝謝委員關心 因為確實委員在這個手機的一個管理原則裡面也給部裡面有很多的指導那我們雖然英國的detail的東西我並沒有看但是澳洲的我在看澳洲跟英國的都四個選項裡面分別有做一些也是我們這一次裡面管理要點也採用了簡單來講就是說你學校到底是要"},{"start":14079.944,"end":14095.205,"text":"統一來集中管理還是放在各班還是由學生關機放在這一個書包裡邊然後因為他確實我們也都把這些國際的一些現況做了一些感謝委員提醒"},{"start":14095.706,"end":14118.854,"text":"所以我們目前的一個這個公告一告的事實上我們除了草案還有範本還有QA大概也十幾頁啦但是不管怎樣我感謝委員給我們這樣的一些意見也許我們在6月1號星期天的這個公聽會完以後因為他有實體有線上嘛那我們怎麼樣去廣納這一個學生的一個意見"},{"start":14119.514,"end":14133.021,"text":"然後能夠做最後的一些部長說精神上有參考澳洲的可是我看到的就是你這四個選項還是太炒劣沒有想到它的優缺點然後怎麼跟師生溝通弄一個優缺點做一個評估我們原來是說把這些訊息沒有單一的選項而是讓學校回到"},{"start":14143.146,"end":14170.589,"text":"在建立共識或者校評會裡面他們能夠去重複考慮那我想就是家長老師學生在這個議題上有可能有一些各自的就是說意見跟衝突就像我們剛講的各方的意見然後教育部的關心這個部分我們一直都講到我們委員是肯定的可是怎麼樣在溝通跟政策制定的過程中考慮多方的意見好好的溝通還是提醒部長全國"},{"start":14171.249,"end":14194.89,"text":"全台只要國中小就有7萬多班 14多萬老師那他們遇到的問題 我還是希望也許趁著暑假 教師應該要辦公聽會好好的溝通跟相關的 而且是分區另外我那天有跟部長講我覺得這麼重要的政策 如果以法國為例其實他們是有做200所中學的試辦"},{"start":14196.832,"end":14205.343,"text":"然後隔了一年之後才正式上路那也這樣才知道指引不足尤其是你現在的國中小如果集中保管要試辦的話那我知道部長很焦慮覺得這個是一個據說重要的政策沒有時間試辦我還是有四個訴求啦"},{"start":14215.816,"end":14236.642,"text":"第一個 制定要更執引 更完整溝通也要有一個執引第二個就是三分之一這部分能不能補照服醫委員會的規定納入你的辦法中第三個 競訴辦分區場次的公聽會那能夠完整收集教師學生家長當然最好最後呢 教育部是不是能夠考慮你們的"},{"start":14239.204,"end":14260.343,"text":"修正後公布的話有一個事半期那晚一點再上路我想就是這個東西我知道教育部有自己的agenda但是從這一波溝通經驗中我們認為這影響所有的人影響老師影響學生影響家長的生活好的政策需要好的溝通好不好那部長可以回去考慮嗎"},{"start":14262.461,"end":14286.531,"text":"跟我們報告我們行動採取事實上本來就已經計定了辦法現在只是修訂這個我們了解第二個我們在這個修訂的過程事實上我們全教產教師會所有的團體包括教員我們也都有徵詢等於說一體座談所以要有一個更詳細我想我們當然讓全國能夠有一個更好的一個遵循我們會來努力"},{"start":14287.992,"end":14300.777,"text":"好 那我們是希望好的政策最後教育部是得到大家的肯定跟支持好 教育部加油 好 謝謝好 謝謝范瑩委員的質詢 官員請回座接下來有請萬美玲委員質詢謝謝趙委員 有請部長請部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14319.264,"end":14324.328,"text":"委員好部長好一樣跟你來談手機管制的相關規定的問題我想聽了一個早上學生團體沒有溝通好教室沒有溝通好家長有不同的意見商務的時間大家也有不同的說法事辦的方式也不同"},{"start":14339.699,"end":14342.642,"text":"工廳會要辦座談會要辦我就不曉得為什麼在當時我們這個草案要訂定之前不能夠更整密一下做好這些計畫那因此這麼大的一些紛擾那當然我想這個手機要去做一個管制現在在世界各國其實越來越多國家都這麼做"},{"start":14360.057,"end":14387.685,"text":"那事實上呢如果你現在去問就是你去問很多的人大家大概也都覺得說這個手機啊的確對孩子的學習是有影響的不然我們會不會那麼無聊突然間要辦這個草案嘛但怎麼做尤其是我們看到我們現在要限制的對象是學生我們要限制的對象是學生我們要落實管理跟執行是老師那一旦我們限制的對象我們沒有去做一個很妥適很好的溝通或者是很便利的一個配套"},{"start":14388.385,"end":14414.233,"text":"那老師要去管理的時候我想啊整個學校一片師生的衝突全都上來了那現在就已經開始有了嘛所以我覺得這個部長真的要好好去想一想要怎麼做那當然6月1號我們樂見就是說我們去多聽一下學生的一個想法因為畢竟他們是背線之人那但是呢這個草案其實已經講了這麼久了那眼看著我們的公告日期是6月1號到本席記得其實我在2月份的時候曾經問過就之前"},{"start":14416.234,"end":14428.69,"text":"質詢問過您 當時你說本來2月這個就要公告那一直到6月份的時候是希望要跟學生溝通嘛好 那我就請教一下我們現在不管是跟學校溝通縣市溝通 跟學生溝通各溝通了幾次"},{"start":14432.743,"end":14460.884,"text":"跟委員說明一下首先我們在三月的時候我們教育部有召開一個協商的會議我要數字就好 其他不需要然後目前的話有就是中開獎平台上廣集各方的意見所以有一次的實體然後目前是等於是平台上收集資料然後六月一號會再做好 所以我們現在總共就只有跟學生團體做了一次的溝通其他在線上收集資料我們有跟教師團體溝通過嗎"},{"start":14464.577,"end":14483.645,"text":"跟委員報告有幾次對象一次然後我們基本上就是幾個重要的就是全國的一個教師的代表像全教總 全教產然後我們都是邀請他們就是能夠以代表來然後把他們的意見收整家長團體呢有跟什麼家長團體溝通跟委員說明一下國教盟跟全家盟"},{"start":14492.512,"end":14496.435,"text":"我想第一個你溝通的次數夠不夠談的內容有沒有辦法充分讓他們去做表達再來我們收集的範本數我覺得夠不夠作為一個參考這些都是很重要的再來我們看到其實這個草案要出來公佈不久以後這麼多的聲音去做反彈"},{"start":14515.831,"end":14536.23,"text":"那尤其其中有很多是认为教育部是推诿把这个问题丢给了学校把这个压力丢给了这个老师那也造成学生不开心那我现在其实也要问一下这个部长部长我们不管用哪一种方式现在我们要去做这个手机的统一管理那学校方面有办法这样配合吗"},{"start":14539.212,"end":14541.674,"text":"有跟學校做過溝通嗎?根據我們的草案內容"},{"start":14555.532,"end":14574.655,"text":"跟委員說明一下我們當時的協商會有找學校的行政代表全國高中小學校的行政代表是這樣嗎沒有吧我們有兩個行政的代表然後此外跟委員報告你說全國的高中小找兩個行政的代表"},{"start":14574.815,"end":14592.35,"text":"跟委員再說明一下就是說我們這個辦法它其實是在民國168年好啦好啦你不要說明了我們下去啦那個部長我想喔我還是重申一次就說我們要管理手機這件事情我們是贊成的什麼管那個是一個重點因為我們不是要限制他用手機啊而是要看看"},{"start":14593.11,"end":14621.189,"text":"這個手機怎麼樣用一個做一個妥適的使用那讓這個家長放心讓學生有便利嘛但是看起來現在常常這種混亂所以我想今天我們整個提醒不外乎是第一個我希望教育部能夠跟我們全國各縣市的學校來做一個溝通然後呢也跟我們教師的代表能夠做人數更廣更深切的溝通那麼跟學生代表那更是被限制對象也要溝通最後我想各縣市其實我們還有很多"},{"start":14623.33,"end":14646.522,"text":"那我覺得 趕快把這些意見採取起來那如果說你九月就要上路 其實本席看起來六月份 七月 八月 九月就要上路 其實這時間是非常趕的喔所以我想這個 教育部可能要再思考一下那同時 如果今天上路以後 是不是有一個示範的機制示範之後 怎麼滾動式檢討能不能在會後 一週內 給我一個回覆以上這些"},{"start":14647.802,"end":14673.807,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這一個一週後我們在6月1號反正公聽會完我們會有一個你就要整理吧所以一週後好不好就公聽會完的一週後好不好好 謝謝那接下來部長一樣請教一下我想上一個禮拜也是一個這個非常沉痛的一個新聞事件我們看到三峽北大國小旁邊的這個嚴重的車禍我想那一幕幕其實我們真的都不忍心看第二次真的很心痛那我想部長"},{"start":14676.067,"end":14683.726,"text":"你是不是有去學校去做了一個關心或者是有成立一些什麼樣去協助受影響的學生跟家庭那目前的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":14686.349,"end":14711.446,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實當天事件發生我就到醫院去陪同總統也帶我們就第一時間去關心這一個受害的學生還有這一個家屬那另外我也跟我們這個新北市的張局長有這一個保持這個電話的一個聯絡怎樣的一個新北市的處理需要教育部來協助來配合"},{"start":14711.786,"end":14736.946,"text":"我想后续还是有很多的事情我们专案跟地方一起我们要好好来协助这个案子不过我们来看到因为这个车祸就发生在学校旁其实过去这么多年来大大小小的车祸在学校旁其实很多非常非常多起了那不管这个就是受伤的状况事件造成的后续的严重性到多大只要有一个孩子受伤我想我们都是很不舍的"},{"start":14737.586,"end":14749.239,"text":"所以我想我們對於學校周邊通行步道的關注其實越來越高我們看到政府在111年開始推動校園周邊計行車安全道路改善計畫總共50億"},{"start":14752.543,"end":14760.687,"text":"總共50億那本席也看了一下這個質詢率非常高將近要97%將近97%那去年我們就接續推動永續提升人行安全計畫那113年到116年4年共400億那是由地方縣市政府提上來教育局把它提上這個需求那我們是由內政部國土署來匡列260億還有交通部的公務局匡列140億來協助地方做那但是呢"},{"start":14781.018,"end":14798.779,"text":"我現在看到好像這件事情在教育部沒有一個角色在裡面那是不是我沒有去思考過就這件事情之後教育部有沒有什麼方式是協助地方政府或地方教育局跟我們國土署跟交通部一起可以把這個規劃做得更好一些這是第一個那第二個呢"},{"start":14799.179,"end":14816.201,"text":"我們看到這個預算的執行其實剛剛我們有說了在之前的這50億執行率其實將近97%了可是本期的了解就我自己的桃園市來講我們桃園市這麼大這麼多的學校那其實有很多的學校第一個他還不太清楚什麼樣的案子可以報上來第二個呢"},{"start":14817.543,"end":14832.131,"text":"可能有一些些可能縣市的教育局會覺得說好像不太有符合到我們現在國土署所想要推動的目標所以我想教育部在這個部分有沒有辦法成立一個就是跨平台來做一個協助或是一個資訊資源的一個整合"},{"start":14833.562,"end":14853.456,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 確實我們目前是有跨部會的這樣一個平台但是委員也特別提到通學步道怎麼樣落實到社區的一個上學的一個陸隊包括學生的一個上放學 讓他能夠更安全事實上我們也在"},{"start":14854.557,"end":14867.43,"text":"這個前幾天的一個校安的行政院的一個會議裡面也特別提到我們地方政府也怎麼樣來協助學校在上放學的時間有更多的警力或者更多的一些呼籲家長現在家長都是上放學開車或者計車站"},{"start":14871.835,"end":14895.583,"text":"我相信各縣市政府都會很重視啦各縣市政府教育局其實也是會來做但是有的時候就是有分兩個部分嘛第一個就是我們在道路上的安全道路上的設計是不是要做一些調整那這個調整因應現在譬如說上學情況的一些變更不一或者我們現在開始鼓勵其實孩子能夠自己來上學那交通的狀況的不一致現在可能都要做一個改變"},{"start":14897.044,"end":14918.26,"text":"第二個部分是什麼就是教育我想部長我也看到您跟我跟我們很多人其實我們都有去參與過支持過進捐文教基金會關於這個小黃帽交通安全教育計畫我有看到部長您很可愛都有去支持嘛對不對但是呢說真的每一年我們在支持這樣的一個活動我們也試著"},{"start":14918.84,"end":14941.246,"text":"因為部長知道我也是草原市家長會長協會理事長嘛我們在試著怎麼樣把它落實到地方下面去而不是這一次而已喔可是我覺得我們的教育上在交通安全教育上要再加強你我都在日本看過小學生上課排隊只要舉著手所有的這個司機都會讓他那所以你也提過喔你也在這個今天在教育部終身"},{"start":14942.046,"end":14966.935,"text":"終身教育解凍的報告當中有提到要推動交通安全的一個教育那是不是可以就這兩點跟我提一下第一個議題第二個教育我想確實因為它真的是一個中央跟地方要合作然後我們在課程上交通安全也有一個五階段的一個課程的一個規劃那另外就是剛才委員也關心說"},{"start":14968.135,"end":14987.08,"text":"這一個怎麼樣交通要去做一些這個重新的一個更安全的一個整密的一個規劃交通部也有一個包括學校附近的那些實施入口怎麼樣讓汽車能夠迎返等於說它距離保留由現在的可能一兩公里"},{"start":14988.2,"end":15011.646,"text":"那我給你一個具體的建議啦中央地方當然要合作那我給你一個具體的建議我們用更高的高度從教育部下來第一個呢我們政策下去比如說我們今天當孩子要過馬路的時候到底啊我們是要覺得日本做得不錯那我們就統一規範是不是孩子都可以舉個手啊養成這個習慣那布林沒有下去的話也許各縣市教育局就會落實我們就試試看"},{"start":15012.546,"end":15031.056,"text":"不管有沒有導護老師帶領有沒有我們的交通志工義工我們都做這個動作甚至於以前也有過小黃旗小黃帽等等不管哪一種方式我們試試看由中央的高度下去來做那我覺得要去試行而不是只有做呼籲做呼籲其實是會來不及的第二個呢我覺得你可以用更高的這個高度去看"},{"start":15031.556,"end":15060.532,"text":"到底我們現在整個學校周邊的道路有什麼樣大的問題是大家共有的狀況那麼我們下去告訴各縣市的政府有遇到這樣的狀況的時候我們要怎麼抱上來然後經由剛才我說的我們跟內政部跟交通部的一個平台那我們來做一個三方平台的溝通然後做一個這個小組我覺得這樣子會比較好那我想今天提出的建議讓部長去想一想那能夠盡快的我們從中央的高度去來重視學生的安全好不好"},{"start":15061.613,"end":15064.641,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 我想我們一定會努力好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美林委員諮詢 官員請回座"},{"start":15074.571,"end":15101.196,"text":"好那現在我們處理解凍專案報告11案剛才有稍微溝通如果有血糖的問題或需要有同仁可能可以先到外面去用個餐但是我想我們今天主要還是要先處理解凍專案報告那解凍專案報告11案請議事人員宣讀並進行討論"},{"start":15104.216,"end":15129.3,"text":"討論事項1交易部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議35預算凍結專案報告請查照案2交易部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議43預算凍結專案報告請查照案3交易部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議48預算凍結專案報告請查照案4"},{"start":15133.041,"end":15158.351,"text":"交易部函 為一億四年度中央政府總預算決議減送體育署新增決議156預算凍結專案報告請查查案交易部函 為一億四年度中央政府總預算決議減送體育署新增決議175預算凍結專案報告請查查案交易部函 為一億四年度中央政府總預算決議減送青年發展署新增決議195預算凍結專案報告請查查案"},{"start":15161.67,"end":15166.055,"text":"七 教育部函為2014年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國家圖書館新增決議206預算凍結專案報告請查照案八"},{"start":15172.714,"end":15195.968,"text":"教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國立公共資訊圖書館新增決議二零九預算凍結專案報告請查詐案九教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國家教育研究院新增決議二一三預算凍結專案報告請查詐案十教育部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部決議五預算凍結專案報告請查詐案"},{"start":15201.672,"end":15212.719,"text":"11 交易不含 為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送青年發展因素 決議二預算凍結專案報告 請查詐案 宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們針對解凍專案報告案第一頁我們請問各位委員有無意見有沒有意見"},{"start":15229.704,"end":15246.417,"text":"好我這裡本席這裡做一點簡單的陳述今天處理教育部114年度的解凍案那書面解凍的部分雖然在會議開始的時候都已經處理完畢但是教育部的書面報告其實是完全沒有答覆本席預算案所提出的問題"},{"start":15247.799,"end":15261.917,"text":"針對五大信賴產業預計四年要培育20萬AI人才各部位到底怎麼分工教育部負責哪個部分預計分年度各年到底要培育多少AI人才在書面報告在另外一份327頁裡面總共只用了181個字"},{"start":15265.901,"end":15292.576,"text":"可以說是用一個非常簡略的說法來打發全台甚至全球都非常關注的問題我想教育部這種態度其實是值得商議的完全看不到對於AI人才的重視那更何況依據教育部所提供的資料近五年來教育部所培育的AI人才數量不進反退從高峰時期一年培育兩萬多人到112學年只剩下一萬九千多人足足少了一千五百人"},{"start":15293.556,"end":15316.826,"text":"那我剛剛聽到這個部會官員這裡在提到少子化那我們不應該因為少子化的問題我們就不來關注AI人才的培育這個產業的板塊正在移動我想少子化只是其中一個原因該努力的還是要努力那如果有相關的解釋就應該要做研究並且在書面報告裡頭提出來也沒有提出改善方案"},{"start":15317.646,"end":15344.815,"text":"那我想教育委員會的所有委員其實應該是不分朝野的啦也許都難以接受這種說法跟做法那因此我們在專案解凍的第一案呢本席還是要求教育部應該要針對五大信賴產業有關AI人才培育的分工那尤其現在這個內閣又稱作是AI內閣嘛那我想應該要提出更詳細的書面說明同時針對教育部AI人才培育的數量"},{"start":15345.635,"end":15361.21,"text":"不增反減的一個情況提出完整的說明及改進的措施現在也不只是不增反減的問題還有可能供不應求的問題那請教育部就上述議題希望在一個月內提出完整的書面報告以上"},{"start":15366.618,"end":15393.532,"text":"要謝謝委員這個主席這個關心這個AI人才的陪議其實就這個高教因為少子化當然他的比例事實上是增加的這是第一個補充說明第二個就是這個去年開始九月就開始全國因為我們擔心除了台城清教這些研究型大學有許多學校他可能沒有辦法去開出AI的課程所以我們也在線上馬上有這個"},{"start":15395.982,"end":15423.226,"text":"總共多少 二十五學所以這一個人口 這個學生選課的人數跟這一個人才他一定是會增加的所以做這樣的一個補充那當然 召集人如果希望說有一個更這個詳細的一個書面資料我想我們會後再來提供給主席 以上"},{"start":15424.226,"end":15443.755,"text":"好 謝謝部長那一個月內提出完整的書面報告那其餘有沒有其他委員還有意見好 沒有意見的話本案第一案准予動之提報院會那接下來我們處理解凍專案報告第二案請問各位委員 夜市在第21頁請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":15446.805,"end":15463.281,"text":"那如果没有意见的话我想第二案准予动之提报院会接下来我们处理解冻专案报告案第三案页次在第39页请问有没有哪位委员有意见谢谢柯之恩委员这一案我有些想法"},{"start":15464.062,"end":15490.684,"text":"那个因为你在推展一般教育我们动机的20%嘛那你这边的解冻报告当中你也提及到特别在43页的时候你也提及到有关于营养午餐的部分我要请问一下教育部我说实在的这案跟前面虽然书面报告已经完全结束可是完全都是一样像书面报告第10跟13都是一样营养午餐法治化教育部已经考官5年了我真的要利用这个机会问一下到底什么时候送出版本5年了"},{"start":15492.265,"end":15517.722,"text":"然后不要说这个部分还有包括你们在书面里面有关于像我们高教的这个大家都非常关切的这个大学法的修法你已经举办了九场座谈会一场公听会到底这又什么时候提出来都同样都是一样的状况当初要做这些冻结全部都是因为这个理由啊还有包括你终身教育冻结一千两百万也是啊你到时我们就是要检视修正补习及教育法"},{"start":15518.522,"end":15537.55,"text":"对不起啊部长已经换了两位司长了我都还没有看到院板那这些到底是行政效率的问题还是什么不过每一次我们的动案这边请大家能够赶快提出来特别是营养午餐法讲了几次了到目前为止所以我是不是可以利用这个机会请部长稍微告诉我们一个比较确切的时间好不好这是攸关教育部的行政效率问题啊"},{"start":15541.768,"end":15564.811,"text":"我跟委員先報告補償法上一次有一個專案的討論那天也有跟委員們報告目前因為有財化法以及地方整體在運作面希望能夠給他得到更大的尊重跟他規劃上怎麼樣互動來支持所以剛剛部長也有回應說是不是等財化法也許在七八月會比較明確"},{"start":15566.132,"end":15590.625,"text":"那我們目前草案也有準備但是因為財化法有一些影響那地方能不能夠支援這樣的一個財政的支出跟我們剛才有提到包含有幾個面向像偏鄉地區像營養師或是五蜜等等這些都希望得到最大的支持沒問題但是所以你就告訴我大概怎麼樣你聽起來好像是八月底左月就可以看到了這個就是等財化法"},{"start":15593.447,"end":15598.068,"text":"才辦法要釋憲我們找地方要談的話變成那個標的沒有那麼明確所以我們很樂意趕快跟地方政府來就幾個重要的議題所以大概時間點會是什麼時候我們是不是在剛剛講的才化法的那個明確性當然我們也可以一直在籌備他一明確我們馬上召開會議大概是這樣"},{"start":15616.432,"end":15640.502,"text":"那其他呢?大學法的修法已經搞了那麼久了學生那麼在乎?跟委員報告,大學法剛才您提到的這個公聽會的舉行大概是在111年間那後來這一次在預算審查的時候針對學生代表的比例還有校務會議的一個運作方式那以及那個教師的一個聘任的一個停聘的一些相關建議"},{"start":15641.522,"end":15663.479,"text":"那這個部分我們也有遵照委員當時的建議分別諮詢了協進會公私立大學的協進會我們都有邀請來那有邀請教師團體沒關係啦 那個司長沒問題但是我先說時間點時間點 因為那時候有跟委員答覆就是說收集完意見之後我們會把他相關的意見納入到條文那中好 盡快好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":15666.923,"end":15683.89,"text":"好 謝謝官員的答覆那關於這個第三案還有沒有其他委員有提問好 謝謝如果沒有的話我想我們第三案就准予動之 提報院會接下來我們處理第四案 頁次第49頁請問有沒有委員有提問"},{"start":15691.325,"end":15707.081,"text":"第四案的部分是關於體育署凍結2000萬的部分,我支持解凍,但是針對校園運動教練的部分,其實不是只有體育老師的部分,其實還包含社團的外聘教練,體育班的專業教練等等,這些進入校園的運動教練都是應該進行規範及管理的。"},{"start":15711.525,"end":15740.097,"text":"所以我支持解冻但是希望说针对校员外社团的这些外聘教练之类的管理以及体察体育署这边你可以提供一份书面说明给本席办公室我们希望的是说杜绝这些大人对小孩有恶意的这些伤害加上对一般社会大众跟家长来讲这些都应该是体育署或是教育部应该要制定一套可以依循的规则或是规范体罚霸凌都是不应该校园里面出现的以上"},{"start":15741.294,"end":15767.532,"text":"好謝謝那因為還有兩位委員有意見我想我們接下來郭育群委員然後柯志恩委員那待會可以一併回覆謝謝謝謝主席那我想我們經常在這個新聞當中會看到就是類似被體罰或是被霸凌的一個事件這已經不是幾個個案而已那整個教育的系統其實更需要一個比較完整的一個機制來保護孩子那我想這個部分我當然是支持解凍"},{"start":15768.172,"end":15794.083,"text":"但是我們要怎麼樣來培訓老師朝向所謂的他有正向的一個輔導的能力同時他在領導整個所有的社團當中有一個完善的申訴的一個機制就是讓每一個學生在遇到所謂的不公平的對待的時候其實他還是有地方有人可以幫他就是讓他有一個求助的一個管道那如果這個預算其實沒辦法解凍其實有些制度也許我們可能就真的沒辦法做到"},{"start":15794.363,"end":15821.309,"text":"就算這個沒辦法做到我們也不能說所謂的這個做不全所以一定要有一個足夠的一個資源來就是對待我們的孩子那面對我們的這個保障孩子他們身心上的一個安全的一個環境其實這個部分不應該被延後那我也這個安慰一下就是剛剛這個休保委員所講的我們要怎麼樣提供一個更友善的一個環境然後針對這個部分我們提出一個比較完成的一個計劃跟報告好 以上"},{"start":15822.059,"end":15847.987,"text":"好 谢谢郭玉琴委员那接下来请柯志恩委员好 其实第四案跟第五案都是体育署其实都是一样我还是强调刚刚那个署长回应我的我是说有关于在这个各地方里面对于运动教练的部分大部分都是用UAP那署长刚刚特别讲说这是给地方一种弹性但是我还是要直指像你郑兆村2017年是我们世大运的这个标枪灾经大家都知道对"},{"start":15848.727,"end":15852.609,"text":"但是呢 那個時候他現在目前在母校桃園的瑞園國中還有我們這個向俊賢是我們跳高全國紀錄的保持人他就是在我們國訓中心啊問題是 現在齁這個都是全部用約聘的方法這些全部輔導 你說給我們彈性 可是我覺得這樣有點你怎麼可以讓這樣國訓中心裡面"},{"start":15868.597,"end":15895.184,"text":"這樣子的一個跳高人才你還是用約聘我覺得這個讓人家感覺我們國訓中心是我們體育署可以來做一個主導的你現在還是屬於約聘的人員你這樣就是好像一個這個我們上層是帶頭在做起嘛明明給我們法制化了就是希望它能夠變得更能夠有一個保障啊你什麼都用約聘的那年老的時候怎麼辦所以我覺得這部分教育部還是要拿出一個更決斷的態度否則我們這個法這個把它法制化都是白修的啦好不好 署長"},{"start":15899.526,"end":15914.963,"text":"請署長答覆剛針對陳秀寶委員以及郭益勤委員提的部分整個國教署它已經有滿完整的一個制度申訴跟通報等等以及教育的等等機制那這部分體育署也會再協同國教署再把這個漏洞再檢討"},{"start":15917.485,"end":15946.335,"text":"再把它更完善那这部分我们会再来努力那至于刚刚柯子生委员的部分呢其实我们也是非常希望让我们的选手能够有一个全职的这样子一个待遇所以这部分我们会接下来再加强来督导我们的县市政府我们也会来做一个评比来看看各个县市政府的首长他们在学校专业教练的部分的一个支持是不是能够正面的回应我们的选手的需求谢谢委员"},{"start":15952.505,"end":15976.431,"text":"市長要不要說明一下我們大概十幾年前就修了專任運動教練的聘任那個聘任是必須要他符合那個資格的時候是地方要比照教師他是可以占員而編制要學校有開地方政府支持所以我有跟署長講說像這樣的選手他如果在桃園得到這樣我們會跟桃園地方政府跟他協調一下工具中心有缺啊"},{"start":15982.15,"end":16006.301,"text":"那個基本上沒有犯什麼錯都會一直下去的啦那個基本上就是沒有退休金 約聘僱沒有退休金這就是為什麼很多學校都要用約聘僱老闆有 他有勞退啊 有啊他有加入勞保啊那為什麼不能給人家一個全職full time的你跟你這樣他是full time沒有錯啊沒有 你還是你的約聘僱他只是不是公務人員而已對 但是你的約聘僱這點對很多人來說就是沒有保障嘛好不好還是差蠻多的嘛你"},{"start":16009.921,"end":16038.665,"text":"你還是就差蠻多你國訓中心總是體育署可以來負責吧他其實是全職人員沒有錯我當然知道但是你身份上就是不一樣我們會跟縣市政府積極像台中市他是屬於台中的我們是跟台中市來這邊來積極麻煩一下好不好這個真的是榮耀之後還是要給人家一個餘生生命的一個保障這是很重要的我也請教一下請問約聘僱的話是一年一約還是他是一個常約因為照你們講起來好像約聘僱跟正職沒有差別啊"},{"start":16040.103,"end":16067.939,"text":"所以他是不是一年一約嘛所以是一年一約嘛所以跟正職人員還是有差別啊這個我想回應上面具體一點但是我想這個是所以一年跟兩年一樣還是不一樣其實就是一直下去啦你沒有犯錯沒有沒有學校裡面任何聘任何的老師你說兩年一聘像目前的這些教授跟所謂的一年一聘兩年一聘跟全職完全到他退休這個保障是不一樣我想這部分大家的期待還是在公職啊"},{"start":16068.419,"end":16097.586,"text":"那我還是會去積極的來協調縣市政府這邊來幫忙因為縣市政府要開卻啦 好不好好 好 我想這個希望研議一下好 那我想這個第四案還有沒有委員有意見好 謝謝那第四案我們準與動之提報院會接下來我們處理第五案第五案的頁次第57頁那有沒有 各位委員有意見好 劉淑冰委員"},{"start":16099.963,"end":16113.27,"text":"好 謝謝主席關於在第五案當中是體育署在補助中華民國民意足球協會當中出現到在去年2013年的時候被踢爆就是已經是有這樣子的議領他的這個活動上面的甚至包括壞記事的查核並不清楚"},{"start":16123.135,"end":16127.396,"text":"那他確定我們在你們報告當中也出現他說他有在繳回他的補助款103萬等等那你們後來的這個回應是說今年的時候3月26號已經將本案移送到這個地檢署這邊那還有要慘請內政部評估是否依照人民團體法58條的規定來去處理民意足球協會有沒有這樣的意識不彰的這樣的他的功能不彰的這種情況那因為現在已經過了兩個月了"},{"start":16151.061,"end":16175.698,"text":"所以想要請問的是那現在低檢署的一個進度是怎麼樣第二問題在於說那對於內政部他去評估這些部分你們有些後續的最終結果嗎他甚至你們體育署在未來在做要不要再補助的時候這涉及到這次的這個解凍案的五百萬元的時候你們自己本身內部評估他是不是適合再繼續為了作為你們要去補助的一個標的"},{"start":16177.1,"end":16196.338,"text":"包委員我想這個案子黃國昌委員一直很關心那其實我們體育署過去這一年來我們都是按照黃委員他的要求有一座所有的該執行的執行面那民營足球協會的部分進入的在地檢署的部分進入司法的部分我們就沒有辦法去干涉那這部分我想地檢署應該已經在處理當中那至於他的"},{"start":16199.201,"end":16222.016,"text":"那個人民團體法的部分內政部目前已經有發函給民旅足球協會請他限期改善意思就是說如果七月底前沒有限期改善人民團體法那邊會就是內政部會做進一步的處理那通常按照我們過去的經驗有可能會有一些像類似撤換理事長或是解散等等之類但是他並沒有講我想這部分還是由內政部在積極在處理當中"},{"start":16224.332,"end":16249.902,"text":"那我們的部分目前就是在會計師的查核都已經完成我們也把報告都交給黃委員那後面的這個追繳的部分我們也目前已經發函那接下來也是會由執行署這邊來處理我們都按照公部門的這個節奏一步一步在處理當中就是按照我們的按照規定來處理好那希望說我們本辦也會繼續再去追蹤就是貴屬這邊的當然我們一切都是依法行政沒有問題好OK"},{"start":16252.383,"end":16273.351,"text":"好謝謝官員的回覆我們接下來還有沒有這個本案第五案還有沒有委員有意見有意見好沒有意見的話我想我們第五案准予動之提報院會我們接下來處理第六案第六案的頁次在第65頁有沒有委員有意見有意見"},{"start":16276.786,"end":16301.357,"text":"好大家都很支持教育部啦那他們資料也都來但我想還是再確認一下請問各位委員有無意見好那如果沒有意見的話我想我們第六案就準以動之提報院會接下來我們處理第七案頁次在第83頁那請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":16304.155,"end":16331.988,"text":"好 那我想第七案我們各位委員也沒有意見好 那我們處理好 我們第七案現在已經到第八了好 那我們處理第七八九案那我們七八九案各位委員有意見"},{"start":16334.753,"end":16361.888,"text":"好 那我們沒有意見我們準語動之提報院會接下來處理第10案那我們頁是在139頁請問各位委員有意見好 我們讓委員翻閱一下看到有些委員還在翻閱好 那如果這個確認沒有意見的話我想我們第11案我們第10案我們準語動之提報院會"},{"start":16363.345,"end":16369.173,"text":"我們接下來處理第11案那頁是在第155頁請問各位委員有無意見好范雲委員謝謝"},{"start":16376.282,"end":16392.568,"text":"那個基本上我是支持第十一案也就是那個解凍啊那但是就是早上的那個報告事項我想在這邊一併就是對教育部有一些要求那第一個就是報告事項第十案關於高教的部分那剛剛那個柯知恩委員有問大學法嘛"},{"start":16395.529,"end":16416.12,"text":"那其實我也有問啦那因為最早剛剛講的那個大學法公聽費其實我們教文委員會自己辦的那當時教育部的承諾好像是說如果沒有記錯的話五月會給我們所以想欽問一下教育部的那個草案的進度那另外就是也是關於第十案一樣是高教"},{"start":16417.381,"end":16436.318,"text":"就是我要求私校產學合作涉及土地建物使用的部分應該要比照國有財產有最低的租金跟利用費的規定那不知道教育部何時會正式公告因為教育部說他們就是會處理但是還是應該有個公告"},{"start":16437.378,"end":16462.277,"text":"讓產學合作就是有一個更公平公開的規定那另外就是我的也是第十案也是跟高教有關的就是大學生的居住困境那我希望高教司跟內政部有一些合作關於社會住宅那這個部分是不是一個月之內可以給我辦公室一個比較明確的進度因為你們好像沒有在回應裡面寫到這一點"},{"start":16464.258,"end":16485.71,"text":"那這是跟高教有關的另外跟國教有關的是報告事項第18案關於高中多元選修教師終點費那目前就是我們接到很多陳情就是我們所謂的108課綱希望有選修課有素養可是老師們反應說開課很辛苦都沒有一點鼓勵"},{"start":16486.91,"end":16513.302,"text":"所以我有希望說你們考慮一下是不是能夠在課程不足的地方比如說能夠有一些終點費的那個鼓勵針對就是多元選修課那如果都穩定之後也許這個機制就不需要了那因為我自己是大學老師我知道開新課很累那最好是開舊課一樣的就加一點新的就好所以應該要鼓勵那這是第一"},{"start":16514.102,"end":16537.584,"text":"報告事項第18項報告事項第18項關於代理教師續新法規這個部分已經跟教育部溝通很多次那可是現在有學校公佈114年招聘檢章的時候還是寫不採紀年資可是這個明明已經是那個就是大法官就說釋憲了"},{"start":16539.105,"end":16558.616,"text":"怎麼就在你們要求前學校公布114年那這個不就是會讓低限的一些代理教師憂慮擔心他們就不適用嗎那這部分教育部是不是也能夠盡快處理那還有別的其他小項我就再跟你們溝通好不好這幾項是不是能夠回應我一下謝謝"},{"start":16559.619,"end":16579.15,"text":"好那我先回應委員關心的產權合作那這個辦法我們已經法規會已經通過了接下來的程序要提不務會議那不務會議通過就會公告實施了所以進度會很快很快是三個月以內還是一個月內對我們的那個不務會議每兩個禮拜開一次所以下次的不務會議可以提公告後再給我辦公室一個報告好再給委員"},{"start":16588.553,"end":16614.356,"text":"那剛才委員垂詢的有關於社會住宅的這個部分跟內政部合部分我們在一個月內會提供相關書面告報給委員來做參考但是大學法的修法因為委員當時也有提示說我們要跟各個利害關係人來做一個溝通那其實我們也有跟學生代表但是最近期對學生代表邀請上面有一些困難因為我們邀請了他們沒有出席所以針對學生代表的這個部分"},{"start":16614.676,"end":16636.417,"text":"我會在另外召開會議來跟他們座談會診他們的意見那針對校務會議還有所謂的教師的部分我們也有分別跟教師團體的代表也開過會那也在會診意見當中那會針對委員在預算審查時期所詢問的幾個重點我們會把它修錄到我們的大學法的一個辦法當中"},{"start":16637.358,"end":16653.545,"text":"那當初雖然有跟委員講說情況比較好的一個狀況可能可以馬上完成可是有些條文確實有一些意見需要彙整那這個部分可能要請委員再給我們一些時間來彙整那你們有沒有預計什麼時候會提出你們的草案呢"},{"start":16654.325,"end":16674.72,"text":"這個我們盡快因為確實現在有些意見比如說委員提到的四分之一學生代表的部分有些學校就認為說這個是有困難執行所以可能還要一些時間來離聚共識那還是要有一個時間吧因為我們之前講的是五月定好我們盡快再處理我們都有陸續在按照這個時程在開會當中所以不能夠說一個時間"},{"start":16681.546,"end":16691.383,"text":"因為你一個時間跳票後應該要說一個新時間吧我們這個是不是容許我們在三個月內再把意見給完成三個月就是八月底好不好好謝謝"},{"start":16693.783,"end":16714.505,"text":"好 委員選修終點費的部分在之前我們就已經有新聞給所有的學校高教這邊也同意我們再把那個公文給委員第二點是有關題序的部分六月份就會修法完成修辦法完成之後各校都會落實那現在委員看到的部分我們再來跟他溝通那馬上就可以落實了 謝謝"},{"start":16720.119,"end":16734.517,"text":"這個第十一案我當然還是就是希望能夠解凍那我想那個青年海外員工計畫其實是現在我們非常重要的一個對外的一個政策那這個計畫已經成功的吸引大概將近有四千名的這個青年參與"},{"start":16736.419,"end":16760.716,"text":"我想這個部分的解凍一定要有這樣子的一個後續的培訓跟輔導還有國際交流的活動上面才能夠再繼續的進行我想這個部分就是表達一下我的立場和意見我想支持青年能夠跨國然後能夠做更進一步的跟世界的交流其實是我們一直希望的 以上"},{"start":16761.317,"end":16762.359,"text":"好 范芸委員"},{"start":16776.476,"end":16789.622,"text":"關於大家都發現姓平的調查人才不足的部分我有一個預算案也是在書面報告的地方是第幾案?"},{"start":16791.323,"end":16793.866,"text":"教育部現在是有補助全國三所性別的研究所的補助"},{"start":16807.605,"end":16837.065,"text":"那可是如果沒有研究所的婦女研究學程大學部的這個部分我覺得也很重要那當然如果你們能夠直接讓這些公私立大學自己就支持是最好的那可是如果沒有的話是不是也能夠考慮就是專照C的委員因為我們有這麼多性評調查可是沒有足夠的專業的人才更深入的研究就會出現一切合法可是調查不夠專業的問題好不好這部分也請你們再考慮之後再給我辦公室一個報告好嗎"},{"start":16840.047,"end":16861.383,"text":"好謝謝范雲委員各位委員還有其他意見好那如果沒有意見我想我們第11案就准予動之提報院會好那我們現在解凍案11案審查完均均准予動之提報院會"},{"start":16868.103,"end":16872.645,"text":"接著繼續進行質詢請陳培鈺委員質詢質詢時間四分鐘主席我超時一下下但我很快我保證我很快好那個有請教育部部長謝謝鄭部長有請鄭部長被質詢謝謝"},{"start":16898.538,"end":16898.558,"text":"國務卿"},{"start":16928.018,"end":16944.074,"text":"目前已經送了嗎送了太好了那行政院簽合的狀況是沒問題現在已經送到行政院好所以我們等行政院簽合那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤那目前你們認為有沒有機會今年可以完成調生"},{"start":16946.53,"end":16965.933,"text":"好啦我們一起期待我看部長答不出來我幫你答但我們一起期待我們也會持續我們一起拜託行政院支持好那接下來我要講的是可是可是在整個體制當中有一些人他也在做類似的工作但是他卻沒有相關的佳績我把相關情況跟部長還有署長說明"},{"start":16967.014,"end":16986.17,"text":"包含有一类是商界到教育局或者是特教资源中心的特教老师他们如果没有授课的部分呢就不会有这个加级那可是如果他只有行政会有行政加级没有特教加级的影响就还好第二类呢有一类老师他是专职新评老师他因为是专职新评所以他不会拿到"},{"start":16986.69,"end":17014.218,"text":"一份一千一百塊的撰稿費他只會有失策費跟交通費甚至我們現在來自現場的案例一個學年可能要做75案到85案而且常常是兩三天內要完成十幾案工作非常吃力不討好可是沒有相關佳績那因為試射到經費我今天先把問題丟出來給教育部要拜託國教署後續我們可不可以這樣我們請請到我們辦公室來開會討論"},{"start":17015.618,"end":17016.159,"text":"下一個是關於偏鄉代理教師的議題"},{"start":17034.099,"end":17056.452,"text":"那目前呢我們要感謝國教署一樣放寬偏鄉代理教師年資採記的認定那可是現在有一個困境又跑出來了例如說因為學校併校因為學校廢校所以他不得去了別的學校或者是他因為考取了不同的縣市的其他偏鄉學校那過去的年資可不可以採記這又要回到相關辦法啦相關經費預算對不對應該部長跟署長看起來是一臉很難給我立刻給我答案對不對"},{"start":17063.175,"end":17090.647,"text":"這個我們基本上只要非屬於個人的一些個人因素那我們是可以採取的好 可是我剛剛說不同縣市就是非屬個人因素應該是說非屬個人因素是整個體制的問題那我認為因為我們陸陸續續收到陳情我認為狀況需要盤點那署長我們是不是也來開會我們來看一下偏鄉代理教師到底在第一線還有哪些現象導致他們沒有辦法累積這個佳績好不好"},{"start":17091.407,"end":17113.063,"text":"我們來盤點 我想我們同意委員所關心的這個我們看怎麼樣來謝謝好 那再來這個問題我覺得比較可怕昨天我看到一個新聞台北市說這三年都找不到代理教師教育局希望教育部放寬三年續聘的年限我不知道教育部的立場是什麼可是根據第一線教師的生命經驗我要說這個問題很大"},{"start":17114.904,"end":17141.688,"text":"當你把代理教師全部放好放滿的時候是不是現場充滿了代理教師還有現場已經在代理教師的人會不會就上不了岸沒有辦法成為正式教師而當現場都是代理教師的時候我們甚至擔心他們的教學品質而教學品質會影響到孩子的受教權我知道你們可能還在研議但是我也很怕很多地方政府開始學台北市政府有樣學樣我認為非常可怕而回過來看我更擔心另外一件事情"},{"start":17142.088,"end":17167.777,"text":"因為花蓮縣政府他們說今年不開正式教師圈那意思就是說他代理圈會開好開滿我不知道蔣萬安跟傅昆齊有沒有講好可是我來自第一線地方教師我自己當過偏鄉的老師我完全不認同這樣的政策我不知道教育部現在研議的進度我更擔心後續有藍白縣市首長有樣學樣但我要積極的拜託教育部這件事情要公正公開透明討論跟研議我不知道你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":17168.437,"end":17195.167,"text":"的確像委員所提這個意見 各縣市可能不一所以我們要廣徵各縣市的意見校長團體 教師團體來審慎的評估是 好 那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤因為這真的會影響到學生不能放任全部現場都是代理教師好 來下一個學生輔導法我們當時都非常關心當時修完法之後我們有四個法要修訂我們現在看到有一個法就是主管機關專業輔導人員設置辦法還沒有預告我們想要知道相關的進度"},{"start":17198.291,"end":17215.323,"text":"好這些在六月份都會處理而且會依文在文會上審議的結果來公佈好因為其實到六月底其實時間真的不多而且距離六月期不是六月底是六月十八只剩下三個禮拜我們很擔心所以拜託你們進度一定要跟上"},{"start":17215.763,"end":17239.139,"text":"还有就是校园内辅导主任主长辅导教师应该遵守的专业伦理规范当时在附带决议的时候有提醒教育部要做这个事情我们也很担心相关的进度我也要确定一下距离六月到期也只剩下三个礼拜还有专辅人员的调整新点的办法目前在行政院的进度如果都还在研议中是不是就后续希望我们可以准时的看到相关的进度署长"},{"start":17239.819,"end":17262.815,"text":"我們跟學特斯會在這一週內到大園辦公室來有一些進度跟您回報沒問題好來再來一樣是特教生的問題特教生的孩子真的很多的困境他落在小學中學大學大學當然我們收到海洋科技大學學生的澄清他們告訴我們聽大園因為他落在學校的資源分配的問題所以學校做了一些我們覺得不大OK的事情"},{"start":17263.315,"end":17285.902,"text":"那來自陳情有聽打員陳情障礙者的陳情還有很多帳權團體告訴我們來下一張問題這麼多一樣人手不足的問題服務的面向沒有涵蓋學生的需求甚至是沒有合約的只要有聽打員說我要跟你學校簽合約保障我們雙方的權益結果學校就不用了這也非常的荒謬還有甚至學校的服務費用提供標準也非常不一致我們認為這些問題很大一樣時間有限我們辦公室機器來找你們討論可以嗎 司長"},{"start":17290.683,"end":17298.609,"text":"好 謝謝司長來 下一個手機管制這一題教育部辛苦了期待後續的座談會我們可以廣邀更多的學生一起座談好不好 保重"},{"start":17300.008,"end":17328.928,"text":"好謝謝來下一張主席你看我很快好來足協的生意部長我之前跟你說過我在去年部長是2024的3月21當時還不是你不好意思好3月21我當時說足協的欠款明細結果到現在已經超過一年多還沒有出來我不知道為什麼但我會持續追蹤要拜託體育署持續幫忙時間有限我不再多說但是足協真的不應該這樣他不能騙你我覺得他騙你他騙你說他還了A還了B還了C但是他為什麼欠款明細不敢出來"},{"start":17329.868,"end":17356.696,"text":"我不知道拜託署長好下一題運動部陳立在即部長我知道你非常關心體育界的孩子在學校的一些狀況部長跟你講有兩個新聞我覺得這個是我們要公開跟孩子道歉我講這麼重的話因為有一批大人沒有檢查出A校的報名資格不符導致B校的小孩喪失全國賽的資格可是他們已經打進全國賽但是卻沒有辦法去比賽這個狀況我不知道您的幕僚有沒有跟您報告再來"},{"start":17357.316,"end":17386.876,"text":"我們甚至看到體育署本來有一個決標有一個標案是關於迷你足球計畫活動是全國性的賽事結果不知道為什麼也停辦了我們來自於基層的聲音看到孩子們很多在體育開開心心運動的權益被犧牲了完全都是因為我們大人的行政疏失我真的於心不忍當然已經事情都發生了我不知道我們後續還可以怎麼彌補我想到有一個是公開道歉我們去跟孩子說明我們讓相關行政機關也要出來扛相關的責任不知道你怎麼看"},{"start":17387.176,"end":17387.244,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17390.154,"end":17418.492,"text":"報告委員這部分台南市體育局的部分我們會再請他們來妥善處理至於這個全民賽事的部分我們當時的確因為考慮到今年的量能的關係我們就只有舉辦3對3跟街舞我知道就是總統盃嘛希望明年能夠來舉辦我真的覺得很遺憾啦署長說實話其實你知道我對於體育界的孩子們的關心我認為不能只有這樣說我們一定要來後續想辦法我們辦公室可以找體育署來積極開會嗎好"},{"start":17420.133,"end":17437.841,"text":"我認為這件事情不能就只有這樣解決因為我們做出來的行為其他的孩子會看其他的學校會看其他單位會看其他縣市政府會看可以嗎好 下一個我們當然也不傾向辦全國的賽事沒關係 這個細節我們再來討論因為主席已經站起來了我現在不是叫文但回娘家感謝主席多給我這麼多時間"},{"start":17439.082,"end":17464.595,"text":"好 體育署要推後續喔因為體育署成立了運動部之後要推社區運動要把其他國小全國賽事也都停辦我們聽了非常難過不知道為什麼會有這樣的風聲來自民間的風聲我要說我們以日本為借鏡日本他們有社區運動可是他們還是沒有取消所謂教育部主辦的全國性賽事只要有好的賽制規劃其實孩子們還是可以在國小階段有全國性的舞台關鍵不是比賽部長關鍵是交流 學習"},{"start":17468.977,"end":17496.446,"text":"這件事情非常非常的重要在後續運動部成立之後或是現在在這之前因為我們九月會有新的運動部我不知道你們後續的規劃但是我先把問題丟出來給部長要拜託部長在跟新的運動部籌備規劃會議當中把這個問題放進去考慮好不好不管是社區運動還是學校運動好最後最後來一樣暴力的問題好下一張這個你們在排好下一張我要講體育"},{"start":17498.406,"end":17518.677,"text":"裡面有非常多的大人喜歡用這是訓練這個是學習也就是不當的對待用暴力的方法欺負我們的小孩部長我之前跟你講過在美國有一個教練他是一個冠軍教練喔他拉了一下小孩的頭髮他就被fire掉了縱算他是可以拿冠軍的教練但是在我們台灣寶頓我之前有跟你講過來 下一張"},{"start":17520.959,"end":17536.961,"text":"這兩個案子一個是高中排球教練砸小孩用球砸小孩結果結論是身介一致高中籃球隊長年的體罰不是一次是屢次長年的體罰很多孩子都站出來講了最後我們現在看到的結果是調查不成立"},{"start":17537.702,"end":17560.414,"text":"而運動部要成立了體育現場這些孩子們的傷痕真的可以這樣被無視嗎部長我依然焦慮我依然擔心我依然要把這個情況告訴部長我知道不是您可以立刻解決的但是我一併把問題丟出來要拜託部長我認為教育部或者是體育署對於體育暴力零容忍這件事情真的不能遇到所謂冠軍教練就轉彎"},{"start":17563.253,"end":17571.279,"text":"當這樣的個案成立 當這樣的個案變成事實部長 我們難道是在告訴更多運動教練說沒關係 你繼續打孩子當成是訓練嗎這樣的事件屢見不鮮耶 部長好 謝謝部長啦好 最後 謝謝部長"},{"start":17581.684,"end":17611.244,"text":"主席最後一分鐘我感謝署長你之前在一個公開課程宣示兒少教練職能課程非常非常的重要下一張你肯定兒少工作證你也肯定兒少教練職能課程但是我不知道這個肯定我們後續的推動會有多麼艱辛我相信來自現場的聲音一定很多來自現場雜音很多但是我要拜託署長我要拜託部長我要拜託所有現在在幫忙籌備運動部的大人們要把兒少工作證跟兒少教練職能工作課程這件事情"},{"start":17612.004,"end":17626.19,"text":"放進思維因為說實話很多現場大人覺得我就去聽聽頭影片甚至我邊滑手機我們真心在上課我們真心把兒少這件事情放進心裡作為我後續職業生涯當中很重要的依據我不知道好 最後一張"},{"start":17627.566,"end":17645.087,"text":"這個比較困難 署長我可不可以拜託你們喔我不要出所資 我們就請你們直接來開會好不好請教育部幫我收集從六月開始各個單項協會教練裁判的講習課程的課程錄影我們共同來看他們的課程有沒有問題有沒有需要調整我也要拜託教育部提供過去一整年單"},{"start":17646.108,"end":17671.408,"text":"當中各個單項協會教練裁判真能在談到兒少性品禁藥課程的講師名單還有相關課程的設計流程有沒有哪一些問題我們希望真的協助未來在運動部成立之後拿著這些單項運動教練的大人們他們真的對於兒少不會只有性品不會只有知道不能打小孩他必須要全面的認識小孩他必須要徹底更改他過往對兒少的認知否則"},{"start":17673.77,"end":17689.228,"text":"運動部成立之後我們的全民運動署可能以後你會有接不完的陳情是關於這些社區運動教練或是學校裡面的教練繼續不當的肢體暴力對待我們的小孩可以嗎這一張知識資料我們可不可以共同一起來研究署長"},{"start":17690.097,"end":17713.023,"text":"報告委員,我的想法跟您相應蠻接近的,就是除了教練證之外,未來就是18歲以下一定要有兒少工作證來補強,所以這部分我們往這個方向,而且我希望能夠登記,而且能夠做加強強度的管理,所以這部分就有點類似拖音那種制度的感覺,就是不是只有上課而已,我們還是要做一個監管,那我們這個方向來進行。"},{"start":17713.823,"end":17722.095,"text":"阿我這些資料可以給我嗎你們可以拍一下這個投影片如果不清楚我們再來討論好謝謝主席我們時間有限超級無敵謝謝主席讓我超時這麼久謝謝"},{"start":17724.778,"end":17745.947,"text":"這個我想教育體育不分黨派大家一起來監督一起來努力那謝謝官員請回座謝謝陳培鈺委員的質詢張其凱委員比較辛苦也謝謝張其凱委員的酒後那我們先確認一下我們接下來先請張家俊委員質詢張家俊委員張家俊委員不在那我們接下來有請張其凱委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":17765.167,"end":17789.993,"text":"謝謝 請教育部的柏定有請部長備質詢 謝謝委員好柏定 我今天要幫你探討一個吹哨者來陳情台灣教育界非常嚴重的問題就是有性侵的這個狼屍在各大補習班流竄"},{"start":17791.465,"end":17818.864,"text":"狼爪這個陰影 籠罩在前臺這個靴子那我先給你看吹哨者陳情的這個內容這個個案啦 這個狼屍的這個個案啦一定是2014年10月的時候他就犯案了在2015年的3月27號新北市啊 新北的地檢依照防害性自主起訴在2015年的時候判決就確定了喔"},{"start":17820.661,"end":17833.485,"text":"確定依照教育部的這個法令規定這老師應該不能再教了吧他離開了學校竟然跑去補習班了後來有人檢舉在2023年的7月12號補習班官網把他這個狼屍的這個資訊把它下架可是在去年2024年6月22號我們追蹤到他還在補習班待課"},{"start":17849.62,"end":17876.766,"text":"國二的這個理化更嚴重的吹哨者來陳情說除了這個個案之外還有其他的受害者部長你長久在教育界嘛不只是一個個案我們看下一張其實啦包括在高雄台南包括去年七月屏東中華"},{"start":17879.602,"end":17903.479,"text":"台東跟桃園都出現過類似的有前科的狼屍在補習班出沒的這個新聞所以我今天要先問一個最嚴肅的問題這種悲劇這種讓人家心痛的事情為什麼一再發生如果照補習跟進修教育法第九條第六項"},{"start":17907.062,"end":17907.422,"text":"我想這一個"},{"start":17933.047,"end":17950.393,"text":"陳副委員所關心的當然就是在整個那一個流程的監管過程確實有疏漏有疏漏我們今天很明確把它提出來然後要趕快捕捕你一定知道林立寒條款對不對?我們台灣被認為是文壇的新星林立寒就黃思綺那個悲劇"},{"start":17959.403,"end":17983.473,"text":"在他離開這世界的一個月內 我們立法院曾經做了一個很重要的修法教育部那時候也急著要做這件事 對不對那時候的內容 來 看這個 博定你真的看立法院通過補習跟進修教育法第九條修正條文 明定補習班的教職員工都必須要揭露他的真實姓名 對不對"},{"start":17986.155,"end":18001.98,"text":"等一下我會跟你講 現在的這個郎師啊他就用化名 變成一個大漏洞了第二個 為了確保學生的安全補習班申請立案人 或者人事異動的時候你還要附上教職員工的名冊"},{"start":18003.277,"end":18026.105,"text":"跟警察刑事記錄等證明文件讓地方主管機關要核准第三條也很重要條文裡面還明定喔補習班相關人員如果知道有性侵害性騷擾發生的時候要跟相關的這個機關通報杜傑不適任人員進入補教界我要問保定教育部有貫徹這個條文嗎這個叫林毅涵條款"},{"start":18032.307,"end":18056.827,"text":"根委員報告其實當時候補習經濟學法修正以後其實我們就有系統然後現在就要求就是說在申請要有關這些職員相關名冊的時候都要先經過縣市政府在24小時內要通報出來然後在中央這邊會經過三個工作天會跟法務部等等去做調查如果證實屬實就會上這個系統登錄那所有要遵用的時候"},{"start":18060.025,"end":18076.11,"text":"那時候雷利風險去修了一個閥一個月內就修了一個閥結果漏洞百出我剛可以看的不是一個個案是通案這幾年來一直在出現林益海這個事情已經多久了2017年到現在結果每一段時間就撇出來"},{"start":18077.662,"end":18101.55,"text":"教育部要正視這個問題要解決好不好來我進一步謝謝委員提醒我想我們來加強督導然後如果有這些補習班真的違反我們這些相關的一些規定我相信我們應該要跟地方責成要有一個更嚴厲的一個處分甚至不惜這個應該該吊銷這個執照的責任我想我們就朝那個方向來努力我定"},{"start":18102.702,"end":18123.424,"text":"吹哨者來陳情之後 我們去做了一部分的這個追查我現在跟你講 我可以看一下這個畫面我們是怎麼去查這個案子的連那個陳情人他都提到了有人來檢舉說提供那個萃跟戴的上面那個手機的這個畫面他們在上面討論說有一個老師在這邊你看左邊這個畫"},{"start":18125.908,"end":18151.226,"text":"這個都是來催哨者提供之後然後之後有很多人陳情他就提到說這個老師還在補習班教書現在都還在喔然後媒體也開始去追這幾天連媒體昨天都報導了那張圖就是一個補習班右邊那個人就是那個老師他教這幾天人還要去補習班你看這是多大的一個漏洞然後我進一步去追我從那個補習班的那個網站上面去看還可以看到他的"},{"start":18155.162,"end":18156.763,"text":"老師的這個資訊你看這麼明目張膽完全不符合我們這個規定甚至他去補習班帶課這影片都有2024年的6月23號都還在上課結果你說你修了法你要杜絕這個悲劇在發生悲劇就一直在產生啊我今天跟你講這個個案我去追每個畫面都有等一下我會把名字給你"},{"start":18185.407,"end":18191.831,"text":"把這個普及班給你 好不好那更重要的不是只有個個案它是一個通案 我剛才說的個案也有 中華也有 轉型也有"},{"start":18196.974,"end":18211.587,"text":"這一個案子委員所關心的事實上已經因為他到這個沒有立案的補習班去教然後經過這個吹哨子這個舉發那地方政府也已經立即集合然後勒令這個老師離開這個補習班"},{"start":18216.651,"end":18221.714,"text":"這一個地方政府也裁划了這一個補習班有25萬的這個罰款那我想我非常同意委員所提的我們怎麼樣去全面的去了解然後能夠杜絕這樣的一個他已經違法他本來就不應該當老師那我想這我們會積極來查跟地方處理中"},{"start":18237.763,"end":18260.921,"text":"現在進行是嘛對不對去把它處理好那整個處理過程你給我一個很明確的處理的這個報告好不好第二更重要它是一個通案嘛來所以我們明確來做幾件事情第一個由教育部發函給各個補習班你要落實林義海這個條款請他們前面清查到底老師裡面有沒有性侵害或者是性騷的這是條文裡面明定的嘛對不對"},{"start":18262.128,"end":18278.976,"text":"可以嗎?可以教育部發函給各埔齊班馬上做這件事情第二個裡面提到的就是要他的名冊要實名制嘛對不對不允許他化名或者是假名要清查好不好好 第三個還有一個大的問題其實啦為什麼這次吹哨者會來檢舉"},{"start":18280.797,"end":18299.864,"text":"他們就是要幾發查不到資料 只好找立法委員啊我們現在有一個大的問題就是他們如果上去 點上去 這個補習班可以看到老師的名字可是另外他如果是不恰當 不當的這個老師 你要讓他可以查得到啊你有建立一個系統嘛 就是不當的這個老師嘛 對不對可是一般人上不去嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":18301.377,"end":18324.229,"text":"一般人上不去嘛只有教育體系看得到嘛那這樣就找不到人啊所以是不是要把這兩個系統要整合好不好要讓它公開透明這是你當初修法一個重點嘛把這兩個系統我剛剛講了把這兩個系統整合起來讓一般人他如果受到不平的待遇或者他要出來要檢舉他可以上這個網就會查得到說這個老師是不恰當的好不好我們現在馬上做這件事情可以嗎"},{"start":18325.551,"end":18341.7,"text":"好 謝謝我們不允許下一個悲劇再產生不要讓任何的狼屍在我們的補習班流竄好 謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員質詢 官員請回座我們接下來有請林月琴委員質詢"},{"start":18355.319,"end":18359.242,"text":"好 主席麻煩我們的部長我請部長備質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":18366.511,"end":18392.967,"text":"部長午安今天想當然今天處理的是教育部的預算不過這有幾個問題想跟部長做討論看看是否能有未來有更好的改善方向首先我一直本來就一直很關心交通安全教育過去也多次去詢問相關部會推動的進度所以想問部長目前各級學校實施交通安全教育的狀況這個我去年也質詢過那你現在有沒有掌握到整個狀態是什麼"},{"start":18396.24,"end":18413.769,"text":"我想這個交通安全這個部分我們目前也有分五個這個步驟在做這個實時交通安全教育包括這個老師的真人包括這個學生的一個分個這個年級階段也有一些不同的一些"},{"start":18414.629,"end":18417.111,"text":"學校老師都受教育了嗎?"},{"start":18444.669,"end":18462.864,"text":"教育部這邊到底意欲何為就是說如果今天三年級才要上交通安全教育那四年級的孩子會不會在交通上受到傷害呢五年級會不會 六年級會不會那我這邊都已經事實上是這麼寬裂的狀態底下你都還沒辦法達到百分之百可是相較於歐"},{"start":18465.226,"end":18490.583,"text":"運輸安全協會他建議應該要含到最低的教學時數南韓也因為他實施了10小時的交通安全教育之後讓他們的死亡兒少的交通死亡少掉96%然後受傷減少了63%事實上是非常好的效果可是我們目前看到我不知道就想問部長說你曉得這些大概你現在能清楚的掌握到數據嗎"},{"start":18498.578,"end":18514.454,"text":"我們跟委員這邊之前一直有合作那委員也給我們協助五階段的課程但更重要的是在課綱到教科書這個布定課程這邊的體系就是能夠比較代表我們有沒有把握學校落實的情況"},{"start":18515.995,"end":18528.663,"text":"剛剛講的是課程教學第二個是老師的責任剛剛部長已經講第三個面向是我們可能在教科書有沒有真的編出來也很實際的跟國教院有合作一個獎勵計畫也是謝謝委員的指導最後一個是"},{"start":18531.605,"end":18551.19,"text":"學校間對於有一些剛剛講的增能後像五階段課程能不能夠真正的實踐出來一年級中年級到高年級到高中那這五個階段的課程能不能夠找有實驗的種子學校這也是委員協助知道只是這個的落實跟它的效數可能我們還要持續再努力"},{"start":18551.81,"end":18579.66,"text":"我覺得希望你們這次交給我報告可不可以真實反映現況真的我們去看到問題點然後確實掌握數據然後逐步的去改善可能沒有辦法一次到位可是不能去年到現在我還是沒有看到你們真實樣態的顯現數據可是現在給出來的數據還是一樣比較是很大的就是都覺得做得很好那我希望不能自我感覺得疲勞的交通事故史上還是在佔比還是最高的"},{"start":18580.02,"end":18582.581,"text":"總共超了7年 從105年 每一年我看那個報告 未來的工作重點建議都相同"},{"start":18599.275,"end":18616.696,"text":"那以後是不是113年114年都不用看這報告了反正只要複製抄上複製貼上就好了嘛所以我覺得部長能不能了解一下究竟發生了什麼困難讓業務單位沒有辦法依據建議做出修正又或者是目前其實有開會討論因為我看不到就是複製貼上"},{"start":18619.111,"end":18639.377,"text":"因為過去都只有做全年度的分析啊那我們未來會做更細部的會按計做分析會針對他的發生交通事故的樣態後邊提出來你們更細的如果你說這邊事實上不能完整表達你們意思可是問題是我只看你們的報告裡面我真的看到七年來都是這樣子"},{"start":18640.077,"end":18661.557,"text":"那不太對啊 那你真的要解決校安的問題 應該要有具體的未來的工作重點然後再來看問題三 就是說 想知道我們的特教資源的供給部分因為預計特教法20條為了保障幼兒的一個學習權 主管機關必要時事實上是要求家長配合建府"},{"start":18662.498,"end":18686.909,"text":"可是實務上我們很難看到這樣的狀況家長如果不去,苦了誰呢?苦了第一線的教保人員犧牲的權益又是誰呢?當然就是孩子因為要學住的那名孩子的學習權益跟同班的整班教學都會受到影響這看起來很小的問題可是其實也是打擊第一線的現場人員的士氣沒有足夠的特教資源支持他們會越來越多人不願意留在"},{"start":18687.83,"end":18696.624,"text":"第一線所以我認為教育部應該提出具體的協助措施所以部長這部分是不是可以提出對應的辦法來做解決"},{"start":18700.683,"end":18721.243,"text":"跟委員說明我想家長會不願意孩子受鑑定應該還是有錯誤的觀念認為會對孩子家長負面表現可是重點是今天整班的孩子都同時受害所以我們將來應該針對要不要再強度強一點否則的話有時候一個班上九個有特殊需求的孩子你覺得老師怎麼帶得下去"},{"start":18721.623,"end":18737.403,"text":"所以我想我們將來一定要跟家長多做說明讓他們清楚知道得到鑑定之後可以得到更多的特效資源協助最後我提出這三個希望你們對於交通安全教育我剛剛已經提了是不是應該要趕快給我相關的資料"},{"start":18738.504,"end":18758.4,"text":"不要又再像去年給的這些數據若不正確的話通常沒有辦法應對後面的問題還有校安通報可不可以給我更詳細的不是你們現在複製貼上的這樣的一個報告還有特殊教育按照20特殊教育法20條裡面看怎麼去延伸可以更具體的來協助幼教的現場好 以上謝謝謝謝林月琴委員質詢 官員請回座接下來我們有請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":18776.953,"end":18795.603,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長 我自己來自高教體系我想對於一個學者基本學術上面的integrity"},{"start":18796.559,"end":18825.412,"text":"是高教教育的基本否則的話我們高教所有學術上面基本的要求乃至於標準全部都會崩毀我為什麼特別講這件事情我老實講我難以想像我沒有拿到一個特定學校特定專業的博士我在我的履歷表上面造假結果整個政府從上到下都在幫我掩護"},{"start":18827.861,"end":18853.256,"text":"我看的是瞠目結舌我為什麼說我看的是瞠目結舌我一頁一頁帶部長看賴清德任命駐英公使江雅琪我們的科技部就已經認證學歷造假當初科技部在學倫大會上面是怎麼推翻法律專業學門七位教授一字訣認定"},{"start":18855.982,"end":18875.659,"text":"違反學術倫理這個禮拜四科技部來的時候我一定會問到底當初這個學倫大會是怎麼開的這個是科技部要負責任的事項但是可以確定的是什麼事情可以確定的事情是"},{"start":18877.008,"end":18893.473,"text":"他這個個人資料表明顯學歷造假現在你看的是科技部的嘛這個科技部的部分禮拜四我一定會要科技部好好地說明但我現在我公開質疑這件事情以後我接到的投訴是什麼"},{"start":18894.878,"end":18923.853,"text":"我接到的投訴是他不僅僅在向科技部申請相關的計畫的時候在學歷表上面做虛偽不實的登載跟他在取得特定教授的資格任聘的資格上面的資料也有記載我剛剛前面都已經把它秀完了我不用一樣一樣帶你看我相信你們高教師的人應該都已經準備好了"},{"start":18925.857,"end":18933.807,"text":"現在我不理解的事情是人家有跟教育部檢舉檢舉還附證據說他的學歷明顯登實登錄是不實的"},{"start":18942.25,"end":18968.378,"text":"來我們看一下專科以上學校教師資格審定辦法第43條教師資格審查履歷表在履歷表上面有登載不實那教育部可以通過資格審定嗎我明明沒有拿到那個博士我在我的履歷表上面寫我有拿到這個博士然後教育部還通過審定這是怎麼回事這個檢舉後來教育部怎麼處理的來請部長"},{"start":18971.72,"end":19000.528,"text":"跟委員回報那這個當時對不起啊把麥克風打開這樣聽不到跟委員回報那這個當初我們就是說學校世新大學宋省他第一就是助理教授這一級用博士學位的時候因為世新大學已經是所謂的我們自省的學校所以他相關的一些教育部管不到不是教育部管不到因為學校完成了相關他專業領域還有博士學位我先直接問啦是"},{"start":19002.109,"end":19024.293,"text":"這個案子有沒有人跟教育部檢舉我上任之後目前是還沒有收到回去清查好是回去清查來請部長部長教育部在審定有關於教師任用資格的時候不管是助理教授還是副教授還是教授那個教授證書都是教育部審定的嗎"},{"start":19025.069,"end":19047.405,"text":"是 到最後這個 當初我拿的中研院的聘書是我們中研院自己審定這個我知道但其他學校的應該都是教育部審定了嘛到最後都是教育部來發證那現在問題來了啊在學歷履歷表上面登載不實然後還可以通過審定這是怎麼回事啊現在他不是只有這個人個案的問題喔"},{"start":19049.847,"end":19071.306,"text":"這絕對不是只有個案的問題啊因為這個案子一旦原則下去了以後啊我跟部長報告以後天下大亂以後天下大亂啊我的基本的履歷表上面啊我愛怎麼填就怎麼填啊我有沒有取得哪一所大學的博士我愛怎麼填就怎麼填啊可以這樣嗎 部長我想你這一個"},{"start":19075.803,"end":19085.471,"text":"這一個學歷的來源跟他頒發的學歷應該要精準這當然是教育部所規範的那我現在的問題就來了明明就出現了這麼嚴重的不實結果教育部上上下下沒有人要處理這件事跟我前舉的人說這位江教授似乎後台很硬從教育部到當初的國科會"},{"start":19106.035,"end":19129.708,"text":"沒有人敢處理我想跟委員報告不是這樣事後因為我有看到媒體的一個揭露他確實是在杜倫大學裡面Faculty of Social Science and Health那個是法學院嗎他不是法學院 是嘛他下面是有一個School of Law對啊 但問題是他是School of Law出來的嗎是嗎 不是啊"},{"start":19132.079,"end":19157.834,"text":"他是社會學系出來的啊這個基本的客觀事實我還要再複述嗎還要再幫他辯解嗎還是教育部部長今天要在立法院公開跟全國所有的學子如果從Faculty of Social Science and Health基本上他不能稱作法學院是 你講得很好嘛所以上面就登載不死啦現在大家包括一堆學者我覺得到一堆學者"},{"start":19161.584,"end":19175.681,"text":"跟我檢舉說我們的教育部沒有打算要處理這件事耶所以現在是怎麼樣政治後台印顏色對了連教育的基本立場都可以棄守是這樣嗎"},{"start":19178.086,"end":19190.382,"text":"官委員報告陳儒剛才這一頁那個slide所秀出來的就確實我們如果針對教師資格相關的一些登載不實或者是相關的一個違規的事情我們確實會來查處啦那這個這個案子有查處嗎"},{"start":19193.306,"end":19213.172,"text":"因為我們目前這個我剛才有跟您報告的這個案子原本是由世新大學授權治審的一個結果所以我們如果再會請學校來做確認就是說當初他提報的相關的一些那個學歷到底是怎麼樣的我就直接跟你講啦一路造假"},{"start":19214.397,"end":19238.427,"text":"一路造假到2021、2022被揭發了以後才趕快改中間有兩關喔我帶部長看一下這個這個齁剛剛在講的是助理教授級的嘛來看一下來來來來海大這個是副教授級的他敢掛副教授就是拿到教育部審定的證書了嘛對吧"},{"start":19242.95,"end":19267.721,"text":"跟委員報告這如果是兼任的我必須要這個是不是在確認因為學校有時候他是會學校自己給他聘書沒有關係你們回去清查我願意給你時間因為顯然這件事情發生的時候你也還沒有當部長那這位司長可能也還沒有上任我願意給你們時間這個案子回去查清楚那請司長注意一件事情"},{"start":19269.113,"end":19287.734,"text":"最讓我無法接受的是什麼教育部有沒有因人設施還為他改辦法我再說一次喔教育部有沒有因人設施還為他改辦法現在市長可能在搖頭嘛可能是因為你還沒有看到我下一張投影片我直接秀給你看"},{"start":19291.145,"end":19319.347,"text":"為了這個案子專科以上學校違反送審教師資格規定處理原則本來是怎麼規定的教師資格審查履歷表登載不實這就違反了結果到了2021年8月25號的時候教育部突然改法規突然改法規說這個教師資格審查履歷表上面的不實"},{"start":19320.717,"end":19346.763,"text":"包括身份資料誤算或其他類似的顯然錯誤後來就是用這個逃脫的先幫他改辦法最後再處理這個辦法部長 市長你們回去看全部都有為什麼這件事情會讓我瞠目結舌我們的教育部為了一個在履歷上面造假不實的人去改辦法我的老天啊"},{"start":19348.103,"end":19365.473,"text":"台灣的高教體系可以這樣搞喔2021年出來了以後先幫他改辦法再來開會這不是一年設施是什麼當初這個辦法怎麼改的誰主導的部長 師長回去查清楚可以嗎可以嗎可以可以 需要多久一個禮拜夠不夠好 我們一個禮拜吧一個禮拜之內"},{"start":19376.81,"end":19393.239,"text":"給我書面回覆我下一次會繼續追問這個問題那要不然的話按照你們心感的辦法事情大條了啊事情大條了啊以後我們再申請高教資格的時候教育部甩鍋啊那履歷表上面青菜蝦蝦的都沒關係啦有這種事喔一個禮拜喔 可以齁可以 好 謝謝"},{"start":19403.407,"end":19420.972,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員質詢那官員請回座這個真的是動搖國本這個亂寫說是誤寫或誤騰這個我想會有很大的誤會那我想這個大家一定會積極處理啦那我們接下來有請徐欣盈委員質詢謝謝主席 本席有請鄭部長"},{"start":19431.875,"end":19432.239,"text":"有請部長被質詢 謝謝"},{"start":19437.711,"end":19466.253,"text":"委員好部長好部長本席今天想用一點點時間來跟您討論一下我們現在台灣的技職教育我們這個技職教育有所謂的證照制度我想您了解證照制度它可以是技能能力的一個檢定但是它不應該過度的依賴不應該過度依賴現在一張證照並沒有辦法代表我們這些"},{"start":19466.753,"end":19490.863,"text":"學子的實作能力您認同嗎也沒有辦法對接瞬息萬變的產業需求確實我們在這當然要看它的歷史脈絡過去我們的證照確實是跟過去這個台灣比較是傳統產業很多的這個產業裡邊它確實反映了它的工作能力跟它所需要的專業資源您剛一直講過去所以我們現在"},{"start":19492.223,"end":19509.233,"text":"現在確實在因為產業的一個隨著這個科技的快速發展確實會有一些落差所以我們應該要趕快來調整我們的政策現在我們看到教育部的統計我們全台高職生持有證照的數量有2.3萬"},{"start":19513.575,"end":19529.34,"text":"但是眾所周知的我們的很多技職畢業生在職場上他沒有辦法發揮他的所長所以反映出證照和實務的巨大落差所以是不是可以來調整"},{"start":19531.12,"end":19552.369,"text":"可以來調整我們可以來推動這個證照品質指標的分級制度那我們讓我們的學子可以針對他未來的就業有一個對接的能力也有一個明確的學習的方向也就是說我們學子他所學的跟產業的實用性應該要有一個"},{"start":19553.109,"end":19582.469,"text":"一個對接的關係那除了這個本席等一下你一併回答接下來就是說本席接著進入第二個就是說我們現在的技職體系感覺上被升學主義滲透我們都很了解我們技職體系培養出來的我們其實應該是要幫助他打造職場的通道而不是幫他鋪地毯上大學吧您認同吧"},{"start":19583.71,"end":19596.544,"text":"所以我們不應該讓我們的整個的技職教育變成教孩子考高分 考試考高分其實我們應該是強化他的技能"},{"start":19598.186,"end":19617.321,"text":"這個部分我們也希望我們能夠逐步來逆轉因為現在感覺還是以升學學歷至上這樣的文化在技職體系是非常不好的所以我們希望能夠提升學生的學用合一以及職涯發展率以上這兩個部分是不是可以簡單的"},{"start":19618.081,"end":19631.936,"text":"感謝我們關心計時教育的人才培育確實我們我上任以後也一直責成這個國教署跟這一個計時師怎麼樣讓我們技高的學生真正能夠學到一技專長而且能夠為產業所用所以你們做了些什麼"},{"start":19635.519,"end":19641.683,"text":"就是要改善這種現況你們有什麼樣的策略呢我想這個部分我們當然也會透過一個跨部會比如說簡單來講我們現在目前的一個計時證照是來自於勞動部來規劃但是我想我們人才包括產業裡面所需要的人才怎麼樣讓剛才委員所說的這個學用減少它的落差而且能夠真正反映出這個它的能力本位而不是只是在這個"},{"start":19666.68,"end":19674.806,"text":"那本席請教有沒有把這種即職就業導向你設立一個指標納入即職院校的評鑑現在有沒有這樣"},{"start":19676.53,"end":19682.692,"text":"因為我們的技職學生我們就是要讓他整個可以順利進入職場當然也許還可以更好簡單來講我們在技職這個校園的一些評鑑就是說看學生畢業以後他從事的相關領域的這個工作他的一個就業力到底是怎樣這事實上是有納進來的"},{"start":19698.338,"end":19713.31,"text":"那當然如果委員覺得還可以更細緻也歡迎委員隨時讓我們知道看怎麼樣能夠在整個課程設計包括人才培育上能夠有一個更好的一些模式我們一起來努力那最後還有一個點就是"},{"start":19714.271,"end":19727.906,"text":"我們現在這個整個技職教育的師資斷層還有產學鍛煉這個問題也很大我們全台灣技專院校具備五年以上的實務經驗的專任教師比例"},{"start":19729.689,"end":19753.837,"text":"遠遠低於OECD的平均值所以本席也了解因為很多的技職教師他很多都是學術出身比較缺乏產業經歷產業的一些專家所謂的業師可能會因為他兼課的一些限制或者是他們對於待遇的部分也許太低拒絕授課"},{"start":19754.617,"end":19782.665,"text":"所以這一塊我們要為我們的學子打造一個要有更好的這種師資給他們然後加上我們的制度可以協助他們能夠順利的進入職場甚至這種產學合作我們應該要朝這個方向所以有關強化這種業師進入學校能夠提高終點還或者他的交通補助那甚至呢 技職教師的升等機制你們看看可不可以增設產業貢獻指標"},{"start":19785.547,"end":19793.74,"text":"讓業界的實務合作成果然後不管是他的專利研發技術整個的轉移納入整個的考評可以嗎"},{"start":19795.74,"end":19813.447,"text":"根文報告我們目前確實都是現況也就是這樣在做那當然我們怎麼樣因為隨著科技產業那你剛剛我本席講的你這種有業界實務經驗的專任教師比例這個太少"},{"start":19815.051,"end":19842.251,"text":"因為這因為我們跟我們報告確實我們科技產業委員也本身是科技人嘛我們看到許多的這些科技產業確實把STEM的這些的這個專業人才就大量吸引那我們現在除了現有的這些技高或者技專校院的這些老師他六年他必須要自己有這個產業的這個半年的一個經驗我們同時也希望特別在技高裡面我們也看到了一些"},{"start":19843.332,"end":19862.568,"text":"科技產業的人才他們怎麼樣來協助我們這些技高或者技專校院的這些教學的一些投入可是這些產業他們就一直的會反應說我們的技職教育熄火了技職教育熄火 百工百業就熄火所以我們包含師師的培育包括這樣的一個業師怎麼樣進入到學校變成一個正式的老師我們事實上包含這一個"},{"start":19872.256,"end":19885.515,"text":"實施培藝藝術師也都做了一些更彈性的一些人才延攬上的規範那今天本席提的這三大方面是不是可以請我們"},{"start":19886.853,"end":19901.738,"text":"委員所看到的問題確實也是我們現在一直在積極要努力來改善包含在施施包含這個產學的這些落差裡面能夠怎麼樣去培養包括證照能不能夠培養出的人才剛好能夠讓產業能夠使用不是只是一張紙在那裡"},{"start":19908.36,"end":19927.239,"text":"因為確實它是真的是有一些落差所以我也跟我們同仁這麼講一個季高生他今天拿了十張二十張的證照但是如果不能為產業所用看起來這個證照它事實上我們就認真的就是幾張紙在那裡因為早期他"},{"start":19928.2,"end":19949.237,"text":"有證照以及證照的時候大概早期的證照還沒有畢業很多的公司都已經先畢業了他們是真正有一技之長就是說那時候的證照跟這個產業它是能夠銜接的所以我想所以現在這種現況我們加油好不好我們確實是加速來努力謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":19954.81,"end":19958.37,"text":"好 谢谢徐欣颖委员咨询官员请回座"},{"start":19960.327,"end":19982.998,"text":"接下來有請何新淳委員質詢何新淳委員何新淳委員不在接下來請蘇清泉委員質詢蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在翁曉琳委員質詢翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員不在謝龍介委員質詢謝龍介委員謝龍介委員不在"},{"start":19986.92,"end":20001.027,"text":"政政前委員質詢政政前委員政政前委員不在賴會員委員質詢賴會員委員不在賴會員委員不在那我們接下來請羅明財委員質詢羅明財委員羅明財委員不在"},{"start":20004.289,"end":20025.754,"text":"李博毅委員質詢 李博毅委員 李博毅委員不在蔡易瑜委員質詢 蔡易瑜委員不在蔡易瑜委員不在好 那我想今天特別感謝教育部以及各教育部有關單位列席那因為我們今天有這個相關的解凍案"},{"start":20026.814,"end":20054.497,"text":"有与各位有关那也特别感谢高雄市政府派员来参与那也因为相关的案件有关那也非常感谢各位的时间那还有委员以及部会官员都非常辛苦那我们今天登记质询的委员均已发言完毕另有万美林委员谢龙介委员翁晓琳委员提出出面质询关于今天会议做如下决议报告及询答完毕"},{"start":20055.217,"end":20083.652,"text":"委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關儘速以書面答覆114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部解凍案33案業宜審查完略均准與動之提報院會報告委員會今日議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":20088.165,"end":20088.205,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16713","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbdabd91bd523f6fd00cc1067dc387cc1fa12e9ca99aa835c07e1681ca6e2be1735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-28T08:31:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:42:00+08:00","duration":15014,"影片長度":"04:10:14","委員發言時間":"08:31:46 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欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1720.839,"end":1731.964,"text":"請報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1733.41,"end":1754.816,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期經濟委員會第十四次全體委員會議事錄時間114年5月22日星期四九時至十二時四十九分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員邱益穎等十四人內席委員蘇巧慧等十人內席人員經濟部部長郭志輝國家發展委員會副主任委員高堅貴等主席蔡家綺委員異議報告之下"},{"start":1755.436,"end":1772.165,"text":"1.宣讀上次會議事錄決定與確定2.處理2014年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等事務案1.經濟部行為2014年度中央政府總預算決議檢証該部水電座預算凍結200萬元書面報告案2.檢証產業技術師政策研究與推動計畫預算凍結15%書面報告案3.檢証投資促進師營養外國專業人才預算凍結200萬元書面報告案4.檢証資訊處"},{"start":1785.292,"end":1792.296,"text":"數位應用與資安韌性預算凍結60萬元輸入報告案5減創經濟部一般行政預算凍結100萬元輸入報告案6投資促進師減創投資促進投資預算凍結100萬元輸入報告案7減創產業技術師研發測試場域整建作業預算凍結1000萬元輸入報告案8減創產業發展發展署工業技術升級輔導預算凍結3000萬元輸入報告案9"},{"start":1811.725,"end":1833.012,"text":"減送產業發展署工業管理預算斷絕100萬元輸入報告案10.減送標準檢驗局及所屬標準檢驗及度證管理預算斷絕100萬元輸入報告案11.減送智慧財產局推動保護智慧財產權預算斷絕100萬元輸入報告案12.減送水利所及所屬水利建設及保育管理預算斷絕500萬元輸入報告案13.減送商業保"},{"start":1835.353,"end":1855.131,"text":"商業發展署促進商業科技的發展預算凍結200萬元的書面報告案14.檢証能源署能源國外與國際交流預算凍結100萬元的書面報告案是由檢証智慧財產局智慧財產權科技發展預算凍結2000萬元的書面報告案決定第1案至第15案書面報告均已送達預算均得以通知引據報告提到院會"},{"start":1856.492,"end":1863.273,"text":"3.處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等實施案1."},{"start":1863.273,"end":1870.214,"text":"國家發展委員會韓衛114年度中央政府總預算決議減剩水利率預算凍結120數目報告案2."},{"start":1870.214,"end":1873.075,"text":"減剩第二目規劃及推斷國家發展計畫狀和業務預算凍結50萬元數目報告案3."},{"start":1873.075,"end":1875.976,"text":"減剩第三目研擬經濟政策協調推動財經措施預算凍結120數目報告案4."},{"start":1875.976,"end":1877.116,"text":"減剩第四目促進社會發展及計畫"},{"start":1885.858,"end":1898.626,"text":"審議協調預算凍結60萬元數目報告案5.減創第4幕建制以資料科學為基礎之社會政策治理機制計畫預算凍結200萬元數目報告案6.減創第5幕促進產業發展預算凍結1000萬元數目報告案7.減創第6幕促進人力資源發展預算凍結500萬元數目報告案8.減創第7幕健全國土規劃及經營管理預算凍結1000萬元數目報告案"},{"start":1910.654,"end":1916.458,"text":"9.檢証第7目地方創生之協調推動預算斷絕20%的署名報案10."},{"start":1916.458,"end":1920.181,"text":"檢証第7目永續發展計畫之協調推動預算斷絕220%的署名報案11."},{"start":1920.181,"end":1921.722,"text":"檢証第8目績效管理預算斷絕120%的署名報案12."},{"start":1921.722,"end":1926.105,"text":"檢証檔案管理局第2目檔案管理應用預算斷絕120%的署名報案13."},{"start":1926.105,"end":1928.446,"text":"檢証檔案管理局第4目"},{"start":1933.65,"end":1949.273,"text":"第四目 國家基益深化推廣預算斷絕1000萬元說明報告案十四 減算第六目 研議與協調推動人力資源相關政策及計劃預算斷絕150萬元說明報告案決定 第一項至第十四項說明報告金與預算金"},{"start":1950.154,"end":1962.072,"text":"等於當之理據報告提交院會談事項一審查114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所有署主管預算凍結案等二次案一第一部行會114年度中央政府總預算決議簡註該部議會費預算凍結30%中央報告案"},{"start":1966.906,"end":1987.899,"text":"法案事項合併詢答經濟部部長郭志輝及國家發展委員會副主任委員高仙貴報告後委員區議員等17人提出質詢經由經濟部部長郭志輝及國家發展委員會副主任委員高仙貴等即席答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢詢答結束委員組議員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1988.639,"end":2003.812,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位與醫政院以書面答覆並複製本會2.經濟部考慮114年度中央政府總預算決議減算高度媒體政策及業務宣導費預算凍結62年書面報告案3.減算產業技術師科技專案預算凍結10%專案報告案4.減算產業技術師科技專案預算凍結2億元專案報告案5.減算經濟部建置橋外來台"},{"start":2012.62,"end":2020.063,"text":"南海投資全程線上化計畫預算凍結50%專案報告案6.減送經濟部運輸費預算凍結28%專案報告案7.減送經濟部運輸費預算凍結1000萬元專案報告案8.減送國營事業管理師管理預算凍結30億元專案報告案9.減送國營事業管理師基本行政工作維持預算凍結500萬元順便報告案專案報告案"},{"start":2037.688,"end":2045.071,"text":"10.檢証國營事業管理師基本行政工作核子預算凍結15%專案調查及究責檢討報告案11.檢証經濟部辦公廳設新建計劃預算凍結50%專案報告案12.檢証產業發展署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案13.檢証國際貿易署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案14.檢証標準捷運局及所署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案15.檢証製作財產局"},{"start":2064.958,"end":2071.505,"text":"業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案16減送水利署及所屬業務費預算凍結10%專案報告案17減送水利署業務費預算凍結10%專案報告案18減送商業發展署業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案19減送中小及新創企業署"},{"start":2080.614,"end":2103.15,"text":"業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告案二十減送產業園區管理局業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告案二十一減送地質調查及礦業管理中心業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告案二十二減送民營署業務費預算凍結百分之五十專案報告案二十三減送民營署業務費預算凍結一千萬元專案報告案二十四減送民營署經濟特別收入基金預算凍結百分之二十專案報告案"},{"start":2104.94,"end":2116.709,"text":"決議第一案至第二次施案均同意當之明據報告提報院會2審查114年度中央證明總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等期案依國家發展委員會韓會114年度中央證明總預算決議檢証業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案2檢証"},{"start":2122.452,"end":2132.921,"text":"該會業務費預算凍結1500萬元專案書面報告案3.檢証第二幕規劃及推動國家發展發展計畫綜合業務預算凍結28%專案報告案4.檢証第二幕向下規劃國家發展計畫預算凍結30%專案報告案5.檢証第三幕財經新策略規劃研究預算凍結20%專案報告案6.檢証第四幕建構完善經營公正轉型及區域治理推動機制預算凍結500萬元專案報告案"},{"start":2151.797,"end":2176.679,"text":"7.檢証檔案管理局院會費預算凍結30%專案報告案9.第一案至第七案均同意通知,拟據報告提報院會3.繼續審查1.行政行情審議,個人資料保護法部分條件修正草案2.本院委員王美惠等18人拟據個人資料保護法部分條件修正草案3.本院委員羅廷偉等17人拟據個人資料保護法部分條件修正草案4.本院委員李坤成等16人拟據"},{"start":2177.339,"end":2178.5,"text":"好請問各位同仁上次會議一書有無錯誤"},{"start":2205.131,"end":2223.221,"text":"沒有好那就議事錄確定現在進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項審查一本院委員謝一放等16人拟據農民退休儲金條例第7條條案修正草案二本院委員郭國文等17人拟據農民退休儲金條例第7條條案修正草案宣讀完畢好"},{"start":2225.97,"end":2240.559,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案共計兩位委員提案現在請提案委員說明提案要旨首先先請謝一鳳委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":2253.683,"end":2275.382,"text":"主席還有所有農業部所有與會的官員今天我們在審農民退休處金條例第7條上一次審查的時候是在2022年4月27號由本席擔任召委的時候審查通過的那根據農業部的統計今年"},{"start":2280.367,"end":2290.634,"text":"2025年的3月底參加農退處金以及包含一定農退處金者合計11萬人根據農業部的報告經系統比對符合農民資格者約為49%但是根據主計處的2024年農業就業人口49.4萬"},{"start":2310.727,"end":2326.155,"text":"來算佔比其實實際上只佔了22.26%代表了農退儲軍的覆蓋率還是不足那我們再根據同樣一份主計處的"},{"start":2328.683,"end":2352.447,"text":"农民就业人口来看从2017年农民就业人口是55.7万到了2024年农业就业人口数就已经变成了49.4万减少了12%显示了农业缺工的问题是非常严重的"},{"start":2353.462,"end":2361.64,"text":"未來我們希望台灣的農民是科技農民可以利用科技來改善農業的質與量"},{"start":2364.98,"end":2382.913,"text":"如果要這樣子我們就必須要提供誘因能夠增加年輕人對於新農業的投入所以我希望農業部可以審慎看待本席的提案我們將農業部的相關的"},{"start":2386.576,"end":2402.105,"text":"比例能够从1%一倍提高到1.5倍能够提高又应增加年轻人能够投入我们新农业以上谢谢"},{"start":2415.912,"end":2435.704,"text":"現在請農業部陳俊記部長就委員提案進行報告謝謝趙偉還有各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早今天大院經濟委員會審查"},{"start":2439.477,"end":2466.636,"text":"委員謝一鳳等16人及委員郭國文等17人所擬聚的農民退休儲金條例第7條修正條文修正案的草案那本人請代表農業部來這邊做相關的一個專案報告那請敬請各位委員指教那大家都知道政府為了照顧農民的福利那農業部在近年來已經陸續完成了三保一經的四大農民的福利體系那這個四大"},{"start":2467.907,"end":2493.639,"text":"四大農民福利體系包括了農民健康保險讓每一個農民實際耕作者都可以獲得一個保障同時開辦了農民的職業災害保險讓所有的農民在從事農業活動的時候能夠提升農民的職業安全保障第三個部分是擴大農業保險最主要是希望農民的從事農業耕種不再是一個看天吃飯的工作"},{"start":2494.199,"end":2519.764,"text":"那最後一個就是今天所要討論的建立農民退休儲金那最主要是來鼓勵農民的儲蓄養老那老年的退休生活能夠更有保障那這個三保一金四大農民福利體系那最主要是為了建構完整的社會經濟安全網那也非常感謝我們所有的委員在這個四大農民福利體系的能夠給予支持"},{"start":2520.484,"end":2547.805,"text":"那今天所談的有關於農民退休儲金的條例那是在109年6月10日制定並在110年的1月1號開始實施那農民每個月的提繳的比例可以根據基本工資可以由1%到10%來計算那農民提高的比例不管是1%或是10%那政府都會對等的"},{"start":2548.846,"end":2560.777,"text":"半月就是提繳然後共同存在農民的退休儲金的一個個人專戶那以作為農民退休後的一個生活那以下就針對我們從110年以來"},{"start":2565.161,"end":2580.555,"text":"我們推動這個農民退休儲金制度的一個執行情形那由於農民退休儲金它是屬於自願參加的性質那參與的程度受到農民個人的儲蓄意願的影響那經過統計在114年3月底曾經參加農退儲金的受惠人數合計約為11萬人"},{"start":2588.422,"end":2611.057,"text":"那占未滿65歲且經過系統比對符合資格者的49%那另外我們截至114年的3月底那我們比對其他部分的勞工的一個工資那勞工是由雇主所提供的6%那他們自願提繳的比例只有16%那顯示說我們農民退休儲金"},{"start":2618.602,"end":2642.165,"text":"朋友那第二個部分就是有關於鼓勵農民參加農民退休儲金那我們現在的一個宣導就是力求宣導到位然後更精準的對這個受眾者做一個行銷那舉個例子像退伍青年農民那這些退伍青年農民也有很多退伍以後從事農業的工作那過去我們"},{"start":2643.274,"end":2659.564,"text":"看了這些退伍金人投入農業工作參加農民退休儲金的比例大概50%那後來經過我們在座很多委員的提醒那我們就精準的對這個目標族群去做一個行銷那結果在3月來統計的時候其實他的參加"},{"start":2662.626,"end":2683.565,"text":"退休儲卷的比例已經從50%提高到62%表示說農民的儲蓄意願以外他對於整個農民退休儲新的內涵如果能夠讓他們更了解的時候是有機會能夠增加他的參加這個農民退休儲卷的一個意願那以現在來講就是我們"},{"start":2685.253,"end":2704.267,"text":"已經有退休的這些這些農民我們也分析了一下他除了我們現在領的老農津貼以外那因為我們開辦了四年那第一年參加投保的這些參加農民退休處境的這些人他合計可以領到9804塊也將近一萬塊那以農業部的設計來講我們的整個退休制度是"},{"start":2708.43,"end":2727.041,"text":"老農年金加農民退休儲金用這樣的一個方式來做一個他們退休後生活的一個保障那這次委員所提的兩個修正的草案的版本那剛才有提到分別是協務委員還有我們國國委員所具名代表的"},{"start":2730.395,"end":2743.636,"text":"其他委員版本裡面最主要是修正第七條的第三項的條文就是有關於農民一第一項提繳的這些金額那我們是除了按月"},{"start":2745.596,"end":2761.221,"text":"提繳以外希望把這個倍數從原來的1比1提高到1.5比1換句話說就是每個月本身農民如果提高如果提繳10%那相對的這些金額2189塊我們就相對應的提繳到1.5倍用這樣的一個方式那我們也曾經"},{"start":2770.343,"end":2795.921,"text":"分析了這樣的一個結果首先我還是感謝所有委員對農民的福利的一個照顧但是我們在分析這樣的一個比例的情況之下那我們考慮我們已經試算過就是如果用這個1比1.5的這樣的一個方式來做提繳的時候那30年以後那相對的農民領取他的一個老農年金"},{"start":2797.782,"end":2812.948,"text":"加上一個農民退休儲金合計大概是38,479塊那同樣的就是在勞工領取的時候我們也比對因為整個的國內我們考慮它的恆平性那勞工的部分大概是維持在33,000塊左右"},{"start":2815.689,"end":2827.176,"text":"那當我們提高這樣的一個比例當然對農民是比較好的但是在整個政府的施政上面來講我們考慮的可能是一個橫平性但是我們怎麼樣的讓"},{"start":2829.042,"end":2847.031,"text":"委員的這樣的一個建議能夠落實到我們農業的從業人員然後也達到一個鼓勵的目的那我想我們後續也會持續的去做一些檢討跟研析那最主要是我們分析到現在目前農民沒有"},{"start":2848.872,"end":2870.349,"text":"更多的人去參加這個農民退休儲金有兩個原因一個就是他的一個意願那另外一個部分就是他的儲蓄能力那剛才也提到了勞工的部分大概只有16%表示這些年輕的朋友們年輕的族群他其實參加這樣的一個志願提繳的方式他的意願是不高的所以"},{"start":2870.869,"end":2885.517,"text":"後續我們會更加強的去做這樣的一個宣導那我們也會考慮看看有沒有什麼樣的方式能夠減輕農民的負擔然後增加他農民的生活退休生活的一個保障來著手那在這邊我想"},{"start":2886.553,"end":2914.743,"text":"以農業部來講我們現階段並沒有馬上要調整這個目前的比例的一個想法但是委員所提的意見我們都會去更仔細的去研析然後也尋求找到一個更好的一個方式來提升農民提繳的意願然後也能夠確保他農民退休以後所得的一個保障那以上做這樣的一個報告敬請委員指正 謝謝"},{"start":2916.647,"end":2917.167,"text":"请求议员发言"},{"start":2949.645,"end":2952.369,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳部長陳部長委員長"},{"start":2960.587,"end":2987.304,"text":"部長早部長我想這個農民退休儲金的這個條例從我們在立法院審查到現在開始辦實施應該差不多5年的時間我們110年1月以後大概將近4年大概差不多5年的時間那在這5年裡頭其實每一個委員一直不斷的在跟農業部提出就是投保的人數比例"},{"start":2988.055,"end":3011.074,"text":"如何增加剛剛我想部長您的報告裡頭其實有非常清楚我大概把你們過去送過來的比例其實我們一直在講青農20到29歲的投保比例提交率是很低的不管是在青農或者是其他的年齡階層"},{"start":3013.816,"end":3035.696,"text":"依照你們現在送上來我剛剛看到的一份資料大概都是在三成多不到四成嘛您剛講誘因不足所以現在有委員提出來要把這個提撥的比例把它用1比本來我們是1比1嘛相對提撥那委員提出來是要1比1.5您覺得這樣的誘因"},{"start":3039.656,"end":3055.546,"text":"足夠嗎這個誘因是農民要的嗎還是說就你們現在應該有去統整或者是說有去做過做過一些填調有做過一些調查到底農民為什麼不願意去參加除菌制度"},{"start":3056.465,"end":3079.238,"text":"理由是什麼那你要做一些什麼東西是讓他會願意去參加的你們有沒有做過這樣的調查有的非常謝謝委員那我在這邊也跟委員說明就是現在委員的版本就是從原來的1比1提高到1比1.5那提高了以後相對的他的天花板是打開的就是他總額會增加那他"},{"start":3080.698,"end":3101.826,"text":"這個法案如果通過的話是針對已經投保的人他有退休金有更好的金額的保障可是對於還沒有參加投保的還沒有參加農民退休儲蓄金的人他其實剛才也說了他們本身第一個就是他們的儲蓄能力第二個就是他們的意願的部分"},{"start":3102.566,"end":3129.048,"text":"那因為退休儲券是65歲以後才能領特別是針對這些年輕人他可能是30年後以後才能領所以在這個年輕人的時代裡面他們的工作的收入不是那麼穩定的時候事實上就算你天花板拉得再高他們還是不願意就是還在觀望這個其實我們也透過很多專程會了解所以農民希望的是是不是能夠減少他的負擔"},{"start":3129.969,"end":3156.882,"text":"就是他提繳的時候的一個負擔如果說我們原來舉個例子100塊對100塊的時候那總而是200塊不變的情況之下是不是能夠讓他們少繳一點那牽涉到這樣的一個少繳的時候其實也是一個方法這是第一個所以你剛剛講的比如說我們過去是1比1嘛是100對100那如果我現在如果依照您剛剛的談話如果這個想法變成說未來"},{"start":3158.454,"end":3173.239,"text":"農民繳80你們繳120他總數還是200你覺得這個會增加農民的誘因嗎或者是說其實部長您看一下我這邊大概也有提了一個不同的意見的看法比如說"},{"start":3174.988,"end":3188.838,"text":"我用階梯式的去增加我的撥補他繳了5年的跟繳了10年的就我鼓勵他你繳越久我的撥補比例增加的比例其實是越大"},{"start":3190.611,"end":3219.093,"text":"這是兩個不太一樣的概念但是其實也是提供精神是一樣的提供它有一些不同的參考基準嘛您講的是說農民可以不要出那麼多錢我一樣的是200塊但是我現在農民只需要繳80塊你們改成120那我提的這個想法是說你只要連續5年或者是連續10年我的撥補比例是在增加的政府的撥補比例是在增加的那我覺得就是說"},{"start":3220.114,"end":3238.593,"text":"我們一直在講青農的投保比例過低其實我最近也發現到一個問題就是說青農在他20歲的這個階段他的人生還有很多不同的變化不同的思考所以很多的青農他甚至會想說他是不是要一輩子從農他現在就去繳這個農保"},{"start":3240.724,"end":3249.711,"text":"農保的退休儲金很多時候他可能五年三年以後他不想做了所以造成他不願意去加入這個退休儲金制度"},{"start":3250.956,"end":3277.39,"text":"會不會有這樣的狀態那面對這樣的狀態的時候你們又應該提出什麼樣的相應對策來鼓勵或者是來提高年輕人從農的意願跟提高他們參加農民退休儲金制度的意願我想謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些誘因其實跟我們的考慮的想法是一致的就是委員有提到是每隔一段時間去提高政府的撥補那我剛才也講了就是說"},{"start":3279.691,"end":3299.568,"text":"100塊對100塊是不變的但是農民的提繳的金額是可以因為你實際從農的時間拉長了以後你的提繳金額是變少但是保障不變保障不變那這個部分其實我們可以再去做一個詳細的設計跟規劃那第二個部分您剛才也說了我們從現在的投保來講"},{"start":3300.829,"end":3318.8,"text":"參加來講年輕族群就是大概30歲以下的到35歲這些相對的參加農民退休時間的比例是比較低的那也誠如您說的就是他們的不確定性從農的不確定性還在那邊就是做了解跟決定"},{"start":3319.64,"end":3341.6,"text":"對思考所以其實我們主力的大概35歲到45歲這段時間其實我們如果能夠減輕他的負擔的話是會有一些誘因的這個我們在歷次的青龍座談會他們也提到用比較好的一個減少他們的負擔的情況之下讓他們願意來參加這樣的一個保險其實部長我在想就是說"},{"start":3343.421,"end":3364.948,"text":"1比1.5這個所謂的相對用1.5倍去提高是不是真的能夠增加他們去投保的誘因這個的確是需要各方面的考量跟各方面的做過各式各樣的調查我們姑且這樣認為就是說我現在把你從1比1的相對提撥率提高到1比1.5"},{"start":3367.049,"end":3387.441,"text":"同等來講 勞保制度勞保的提撥是不是也要做一些調整否則這一個國家的制度就會大亂但是對於農民因為他的收入本來就比較少而且是不固定的如何增加他願意持續從農增加他在年老的時候有一筆所謂的退休金"},{"start":3388.041,"end":3415.63,"text":"那這個誘因要怎麼增加要怎麼鼓勵現在我們要鼓勵年輕人或者是中壯年回到農村裡頭去參與農事的耕作我覺得這個有很多的設計有很多的制度配套其實是需要更前瞻更全方位的去看這個我想也有賴這個農業部可能要多做一些田野調查我覺得你們應該是要下鄉去讓跟更多的農民座談不只是青農 中壯年"},{"start":3417.29,"end":3433.372,"text":"他有的可能是他在過去在工會在參加勞保後來他回到農村現在我們農村很多這種五十幾歲六十歲的中壯年直接投入農業的工作那在保險制度上面其實也沒有辦法符合他們的需求"},{"start":3433.973,"end":3446.688,"text":"我覺得這一塊也是未來農業部在做相關的保險制度改革的時候一個很重要的依據那部長因為我時間剩下一點點我想要簡短的再問一下老農津貼的這個排富門檻已經14年沒有調了"},{"start":3449.131,"end":3463.197,"text":"大家都一直在講那我在上一屆其實也有提過相關的修法我不知道農業部現在的態度是怎麼樣就是你們對於這件事情有沒有一個想法你認為該不該調整那如果該調整的話農業部的規劃是怎麼樣我跟委員報告"},{"start":3470.071,"end":3483.201,"text":"那個農農軍隊的排布條款以農業部的立場來講我們是支持這些排布條款做適度的修正因為包括我們的房屋的價值的所還有土地的價值房屋的價值等等隨著時間的一個調整"},{"start":3485.863,"end":3512.178,"text":"所以我們在我們的方案附案裡面其實我們有針對排富條款本身的所得的部分從50萬可以適度的提高然後至於說財產的部分從500萬也可以適度的提高所以這些東西都已經在你們的修正規劃裡面那什麼時候會送到行政院或者什麼時候會跟行政院來做討論我想我們已經有安排行政院的做專案報告"},{"start":3513.419,"end":3541.118,"text":"那做專案包括我剛才說的農業部的立場是支持這樣的一個調整那包括CPI4年的時候怎麼樣去做一個階段性的調整這個都有一個完整的配套方案那有待於就是行政院做最後的決定部長有沒有可能我們在下個會期的時候可以有一些你們行政院的版本農業部的版本可以送到院裡面來做討論甚至跟委員的案子來併案做討論那如果可以的話我覺得老農今天排付條款這個已經14年沒有調整"},{"start":3543.719,"end":3566.376,"text":"其實它是一個非常迫切需要改變的一個法案是 我們期待會這樣子啦那因為行政院現在一直希望說八大政府的一個條例來同步考量但我們希望說因為農業是比較特殊的是不是可以單獨先行啦這個我想我們會努力的去跟行政院做這樣的調查部長 那我就給你一點壓力啦"},{"start":3567.236,"end":3592.627,"text":"否則我覺得這個我們長期因為執政黨的委員齁都是溫良恭儉讓齁我還是要給您一點壓力啊我期待下個會期那個農業部的版本就能夠送到院裡面來跟我們的版本定案來討論我們希望能夠在今年年底以前把老農津貼排除的這件事情把它做一個修訂完成讓他做一些調整好嗎好這是我想也是我們的目標好謝謝"},{"start":3595.194,"end":3610.631,"text":"好 谢谢 现在请郑正前委员做讯答谢谢主席 我想请一下农业部陈部长陈部长"},{"start":3617.276,"end":3632.493,"text":"委員長部長好因為今天我們安排的是農會儲存條例的一個修正那我記得在那個2022年的時候那時候林海是次長的時候我那時候陳一仲陳部長的時候他那時候提到說他希望在2023年的比例達到30%"},{"start":3634.395,"end":3650.812,"text":"那我這邊有個數字跟你在那個今天的報告當中有一點落差就是我看預算中心這邊提到在民國113年6月底的時候就是農民退休儲金的整個的比例占我們所有的農保投保的被保險人數只有27.09%"},{"start":3653.875,"end":3672.435,"text":"那你這邊今天提到的另外提到一個數字是49%可不可以解釋一下這當中的差距是在哪裡我想第一個部分就是母數的部分農保本身的人數它現在降得蠻快的以現在來講 以上個月來講現在的農保人數大概是85.3萬"},{"start":3676.98,"end":3706.036,"text":"因為我們農隊儲金是小於65歲的那65歲現在的統計是31.7萬這是一個那你如果說以31.7萬當母數的時候它的確大概是30%左右但是相對的因為你參加農民退休儲金你主要就農保的資格的減和那如果說開綠燈的就是說你參加農保資格可能有一些資格還是有一些問題但是我們如果去把它"},{"start":3707.942,"end":3724.66,"text":"這個百分之百沒問題的才能加好理解了所以按照這樣的一個數字的一個標準的時候你覺得目前為止的時候已經達到百分之三十十一萬跟三十一萬大概三十出頭是不是不是現在比例是多少現在比例如果說"},{"start":3726.401,"end":3736.765,"text":"曾經來參加農民退休除菁的有11萬人然後除以母數的話是49%那如果說退休的不算曾經加保然後退休的不算的話是達到40%"},{"start":3739.606,"end":3759.986,"text":"所以目前有40% 因為我在想說這之前其實很多人都覺得這樣的比例其實不夠高那我在想說今天的一個修法的部分本來就是希望說能夠提高一個更大的一個誘因那我在想說你這邊有這邊提出一個書面的一個資料就是這邊有剛也口頭做報告那本席稍微了解那我接下來我要問一個問題"},{"start":3761.147,"end":3775.626,"text":"其實就是針對就是上禮拜你接受媒體訪問的時候你講到說台美的農產品的關稅談判希望能夠維持5%對不對那這個部分的時候我在想說那政府是不是有考慮對美國農產品採零關稅的政策這個部分"},{"start":3778.109,"end":3800.389,"text":"您可以再做一次政治性的一個宣示一下我跟委員報告就是在美國提出對等關稅談判之前美國的關稅我們出到美國的關稅平均是5%所以我們一直希望說在對等關稅談判過程中能夠維持以農產品來講能夠維持現在的關稅的比例是最好的那你要怎麼維持關稅"},{"start":3801.69,"end":3822.769,"text":"人家提出這樣的一個條件出來的時候因為當時我們在講萊豬進口的時候呢當時也是提到說我們要有更好的一個談判條件結果其實後來也沒有啊不過我想喔有一部分的農產品我們是依賴美國的而且是在台灣是當作原物料的部分我特別提到的黃小玉的部分那黃豆玉米的部分"},{"start":3823.49,"end":3842.205,"text":"如果關稅越低的時候對我們的生產人們降的越低所以這個部分我想我們會更積極的去跟美國因為最主要美國的玉米黃豆跟小麥基本上就是我們本來主要的大東的所以提前部長覺得好像說因為黃小玉的關係所以我們降低到零關稅的時候對台灣的農業還是有幫助的"},{"start":3843.846,"end":3863.44,"text":"所以你打算讓台灣的農業對美進口的關稅降到零嗎沒有我沒有這樣講現在目前黃豆跟玉米本身的關稅就是零了本來就是零那因為零關稅的話我說整體因為我在今天在講整體是百分之五現在是平均是百分之五"},{"start":3864.701,"end":3884.672,"text":"那我剛才說的就是當這個五次總平均那是有一些關稅低的時候是對我們台灣有利的因為當是原物料的部分我們希望它低一點是可以的所以我在問整體嘛所以我想問一下就是因為有學者認為台灣的整個農業的三大核心是稻米豬肉跟雞肉"},{"start":3885.532,"end":3903.667,"text":"那這部分退讓的時候可能影響會非常的巨大尤其是稻米的部分對於稻米部分的時候我們目前跟那個國際這邊的一個標準是怎麼樣子我跟委員報告就是您剛才提到的稻米豬肉跟雞肉那其實我一直強調就是農業"},{"start":3904.548,"end":3921.806,"text":"他負有一個非常重要的糧食安全的一個責任所以在談判的過程中我們一定會秉持著我們的糧食安全然後我們要讓我們的農民的收益能夠確保讓我們的產業能夠永續發展在這幾個前提之下我們才會去討論一些比較細的原則"},{"start":3922.947,"end":3945.432,"text":"理解喔 那我先問一下米的部分我們目前就是我們的就是稻米的關稅配額一年有多少算144,720噸那其中有94,000噸是國家配額有50,000噸是民間的配額那國家的配額就是由政府去買來以後放到公糧倉庫裡面這樣的話對我們國內的稻米產業不會有影響對 那144,720噸裡面有多少是從美國進口"},{"start":3952.304,"end":3971.834,"text":"我剛才說的14萬4千720裡面9萬4是國際配合 9萬4裡面的6萬4千噸左右6萬4千噸是美國的配合大概佔了45%左右對不對那因為在這部分的時候因為我們如果說像現在我想再問一個狀態台灣的米一公斤大概要50塊對不對美國的米大概30塊而已"},{"start":3976.803,"end":3989.938,"text":"這個資訊其實都在變動那我們經過我們如果以批發價來講批發價來講美國米跟台灣米的差價大概是5塊左右並沒有到10塊因為現在美國的米也越來越貴"},{"start":3991.62,"end":4008.029,"text":"所以您剛才講的那個數據可能是三四年前在那個COVID之前本身如果加州大豐收的時候它的進口米的價格會低所以有差到10塊但是以去年來講它差到4塊板左右OK那我最後來問一個問題因為美國現在還在做一個就是美國優先海鮮戰略這個部分"},{"start":4012.591,"end":4035.571,"text":"那麼他有特別針對IU跟強迫勞動的問題在做一個關心尤其在漁業的部分的時候那麼在這個地方的時候我上個禮拜先我有問到IU的問題那我今天要特別針對那個強迫勞動的問題去做一個關心的部分那因為監察院在前幾不久之前的時候也提出一個狀態因為有南方澳的漁船因為有印尼勞工"},{"start":4036.091,"end":4050.313,"text":"就在那個海上死掉那就針對這個部分的時候我們農業部這邊有沒有打算要怎麼去做那我想要去衍生的一個問題是針對於就是漁工他們的通訊權的問題"},{"start":4052.779,"end":4068.206,"text":"有沒有辦法給他一個比較好的一個保障我想我們一直持續的透過漁業與人權行動方案裡面去加強漁工的就是漁工的勞動條件在船上的勞動條件上岸以後他的一個生活的一個條件"},{"start":4069.807,"end":4089.134,"text":"那在海上的時候Wi-Fi是一個它可以對外聯絡的一個通路所以我們針對Wi-Fi也給予適當的補助包括它的機制跟它的通訊費成效不好啊現在台灣紀元洋漁船裡面大概有那個Wi-Fi大概只有10%左右是3%我跟委員報告就是"},{"start":4090.414,"end":4109.552,"text":"漁船在海上作業他跟陸地聯絡的顧問Wi-Fi只是其中的一個方式而已那他還有那個衛星電話然後還有一些其他的一些無線電台的部分可以去聯絡的部分那因為他現在並沒有強制所以我們還是"},{"start":4110.493,"end":4132.464,"text":"針對這個部分就是因為監察院也提出了一個這樣的檢討報告所以說希望說我們針對於整個漁業人權的部分尤其是針對漁船船員海上傷病申請救援通訊諮詢機制這個部分的時候他要求我們農業部這邊必須要去做一個調整那我這邊我也提到一個"},{"start":4133.064,"end":4152.783,"text":"像比方說現在台灣的遠洋漁船其實有Wi-Fi的部分比例很低那船上都沒有Wi-Fi的時候漁工就更沒有辦法有條件去使用這樣的一個通訊那在韓國他們其實有具體的一個標準出來你知道我們目前跟韓國的標準差距有多大嗎"},{"start":4154.192,"end":4178.124,"text":"不過我想有一個非常重要的就是遠洋漁船在公海的時候離開我們的12海里以外的時候他用的是一個衛星電話那現在目前因為台灣只有一家合格那其他的國際舉個例子STARLINK的部分我們現在因為NCC還沒有在審這個部分沒有經過我們通訊認可的時候是不能用的但是我所知道"},{"start":4178.644,"end":4196.043,"text":"遠洋漁船在國際上在行船的時候他還是有用其他國家的這些通訊衛星這個都沒有問題我只是要講我就簡單具體講一個數字給你我們月屬2024年建議的船員使用Wi-Fi一個月的量是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":4198.421,"end":4216.19,"text":"一個月只有40Mbps你知道 很少然後或者是一個月三個小時韓國給的 這沒有錯嘛 約束這邊韓國的標準 其實目前是每個月3到5Gbps然後每天三小時啊所以對於整個這個"},{"start":4218.571,"end":4233.306,"text":"遠洋漁工的一個勞動權的部分我們希望這邊要特別的一個加強好不好因為這目前來說的時候都不是一個強制性的部分可是因為這部分跟我們在跟美國在做一個談判的時候肯定也是一個他們關注的點"},{"start":4233.806,"end":4261.272,"text":"因為除了IUU之外的時候他們也針對強迫勞動強迫勞動是在遠洋漁船上面非常非常普遍的一個樣態之一所以我們這邊的時候那要再加上我們南方澳有印尼漁工在船上死亡的問題那牽涉到整個通訊機制的一個不良所以我們希望針對這個部分的時候農業部能夠加以改善好不好"},{"start":4262.092,"end":4271.505,"text":"針對於這樣部分我覺得這是一個基本人權的部分我在想說大家在漁工其實在遠洋漁船上工作已經是很辛苦的事情如果說強迫勞動的問題又沒有通訊權的問題的時候我覺得那情況會更糟"},{"start":4277.233,"end":4290.979,"text":"好謝謝委員提醒我想我們在這方面會持續努力增加他的Wi-Fi的使用的時間那這個牽涉到他的費用的問題我想必要的協助我們也會再跟遠洋漁業這些船主一起來討論OK那我最後再問一個問題因為在那個"},{"start":4294.28,"end":4320.871,"text":"之前萊豬要進來的時候 當時的部長陳其仲他就講說國產豬肉自給率到93% 你那時候是次長你知道到目前為止台灣的一個國產豬肉自給率大概是百分之多少我想以去年來講大概是88%那以今年來講 因為不同的月份它的豬肉進口量還有88%是不是那我這邊我提問個數字 因為到"},{"start":4325.259,"end":4335.467,"text":"114年5月23號之前的時候這個部分我們看到的一個數字是台灣豬的一個整個量跟進口豬的量是76比24"},{"start":4339.126,"end":4360.974,"text":"那這個部分你也學長說因為這裡面有很多是到加工領域裡面去不過這個部分要跟委員說明的第一個就是說因為到4月的部分我們的進口豬肉通常是跟我們國內的豬肉就是在彌補不足所以它不是每個月進口的數量都是一模一樣的所以"},{"start":4361.334,"end":4381.32,"text":"它在上半年會比較多一點所以它的占比就會高一點但是在下半年比較低的時候所以拉起來我們還是要用整年的平均來看所以整年來說你覺得目前的台灣豬肉自給率還有88%對我們去年實際上是88%然後前年也是大概88%到89%左右所以這幾年來平均在88%到90%之間在浮動"},{"start":4384.451,"end":4405.156,"text":"OK那我在這邊最後再提一個因為之前有澳洲的那個豬腳進來的時候有三次都含那個萊克多巴胺然後就是也超標所以其實有百分之九成的民眾我所知道沒有所謂的超標它是含萊克多巴胺但是含萊克多巴胺但是它並沒有超過我們國家的標準"},{"start":4405.856,"end":4425.255,"text":"因為超過就進不來因為可是有目前還是有90%的民眾在意瘦肉精的這個問題而且不滿意現在標示的比重其實非常的高那麼認為瘦肉精要標示的部分有67%這比重還是非常非常的高表示民眾對於"},{"start":4427,"end":4447.635,"text":"收入金的問題其實還是非常的在意那我們希望針對整個標示的問題的時候那我們希望農業部身為主管豬肉的相關的單位的時候也能夠跟衛福部這邊做進一步的溝通好不好讓民眾能夠真的安心不要因為這件事情然後消費者"},{"start":4449.296,"end":4473.142,"text":"就是對於台灣豬肉產生高度的不信任好不好我跟委員報告以農業部立場就是我們要確保台灣的豬肉產業持續永續發展所以後續我們會更積極的去推動台灣豬的部分的市場的區隔那台灣豬本身是因為以溫體豬肉為主最主要是見到傳統市場跟所謂的賣場現在雲林台中其實他們都有自己的一個做法"},{"start":4473.422,"end":4492.541,"text":"那你說中央要怎麼做所以包括我們台灣豬肉的品牌的行銷這個我想我們都會跟各地的這些豬農協會的部分來做討論重要就是我們要讓我們的台灣豬肉在我們的消費者一定是認可的唯一認可的那這樣的話"},{"start":4493.101,"end":4512.383,"text":"其實其他的豬肉在進口它可能就是一個替代不足的部分不會影響到我們台灣豬肉的生產這是我們農業部最大的理解因為地方其實都做的感覺比中央還要更多那中央這邊如果後續有什麼具體的做法的時候你再給本辦公室一個書面的資料好 謝謝好 謝謝現在請林黛化委員做詢答"},{"start":4528.578,"end":4551.577,"text":"好有請部長陳部長好這個我們怎麼來活化農退農民退休的這個保障機制這個政策工具是改變民眾行為的方法那我們來看現在農民退休儲金的這個加入"},{"start":4552.077,"end":4569.445,"text":"退休途徑的狀況這些都是官方數據主計處在今年3月的時候針對農林漁牧的就業實質就業是48.8萬但是在今年3月的時候真的我國有加入農保的是比48.8萬還多85.6萬但是沒有"},{"start":4575.268,"end":4585.133,"text":"不是在這個就業人口 並不是代表他是假農民喔其實他是符合資格的好 但是呢 這當中的今年3月的時候呢我們這85.6萬當中真的有加入農民退休途徑的只有9.1萬而已差距很大而且呢 如果我再擴大包含曾經參加過農退的而且含65歲以上已經領取這個的農民"},{"start":4600.802,"end":4609.906,"text":"那大概就是就是已經領了農退了已經現在在領農退如果這些人再加進去那大概有11萬而農保當中這85.6萬當中啊自耕農的加保是有到76.1但是呢卻有9.5萬的電農"},{"start":4618.849,"end":4647.34,"text":"所以本行認為這真的85.6萬當中真正又如果真的有這個優先順序的那個急迫性當然是針對沒有土地的電農因為這塊土地是我的啊我就算我不種了我退休了我土地還可以做一些出租啊或者是再做一些什麼什麼的運用啊但是對電農他耕作了一輩子他沒有土地他就就這樣退可是退了之後他的保障基礎是我們應該政府用更大的力量的好"},{"start":4648.3,"end":4669.466,"text":"好那這個呢我就截取這個郭國文郭委員的他的提案的數據這是他去年113年9月的時候這個農民退休除菁啊當中農保的部分農保可以一直領嗎可以一直加我就可以加到八十幾歲九十幾歲我都可以加但是農保當中未滿65歲的被保人才佔所有農保的27.63%"},{"start":4675.228,"end":4681.273,"text":"好 那這當中呢 我這85.6當中呢 如果再細算如果是30歲以下 20到29歲的青龍他真的有提 去提這個融退的部分的 才24而已啦所以是非常低 其實你的簡報當中有提到"},{"start":4693.624,"end":4716.836,"text":"好 那農民退休儲金是一個保障它是一個這個福利保障喔那現在是1.1我們兩位委員的提案是希望提到1.5那當然政府最早要增加到再增加15.5就是總而你們要如果這兩個法案過的話你們就是要準備農民的這個退休這個儲金要達新台幣46點46.5的1好"},{"start":4721.798,"end":4738.952,"text":"但是呢增加也沒關係但是本席認為會不會增加農民的再增加農民農退儲金的誘因本席持保留態度那我們就爬數為什麼因為他不確定性高而導致參加意願低啊基層的農民認為精算後我農退的儲金跟勞保的勞年給付相差起來"},{"start":4744.336,"end":4752.783,"text":"差不多 這次老跑來比較高然後加上青榮從榮 我30歲從榮 我40歲從榮我要一直繳榮退的話 我要繳到65歲我才可以退 我中間從事了6年之後我想要退 我繳了6年的榮退了結果我繳了6年之後 我不想再種了"},{"start":4767.395,"end":4787.045,"text":"那我沒有辦法有一個彈性機制讓我可以把我腳的領回來那我怎麼知道我的農業我一直都可以一直從30歲一直做到65歲因為這個行業的不確定性太高所以對農退的儲金的制度觀望那當然了"},{"start":4788.546,"end":4801.74,"text":"這個我就爬數一下 農民不願參加農退雛精的原因大概有五項第一個我根本不清楚農退雛精的內容第二個我農業收入不穩定我不敢提撥我又要提 一方面我要提撥農保我一方面又要提撥農退哇 這兩個"},{"start":4806.845,"end":4826.623,"text":"這個在我收入不穩定的情況之下 我不敢提拔 我寧願先救我的榮保就好那第三個 青榮認為要到65歲才能領這變數太多 不像勞保的範疇 我只要是勞工身份我現在在A公司 我一來到B公司 行業都不同 我都可以 我還是保有我的榮保但是我做榮保 不好意思 我一定要從容"},{"start":4828.144,"end":4848.808,"text":"那第四個部分農民的投保老保多年了他不願轉換有些有些青農或者是說中途轉進的農民他就直接投入老保多年了我也不願意轉換成農保再加入農退了因為其實再怎麼加起來都比不上我老保我加入老保的退休退休的60%"},{"start":4852.71,"end":4855.251,"text":"而且你也講對了 就是要加強宣導農民誤認農退除菁跟老農今天是互製的 其實不對的我其實只要有勞保 我也有加入65歲之後我可以同時加"},{"start":4868.809,"end":4885.222,"text":"接受勞保的保障我可以領老農津貼那如果我這65歲以前有加入勞退儲金我其實還是可以領的這三個是可以一起一個可以保障兩個繼續領的就是農退儲金跟老農津貼是可以繼續領的那但是農民會誤沒有誤人所以其實"},{"start":4885.962,"end":4897.979,"text":"第一個 第二個 第五個其實都是叫不清楚嘛不清楚他的農退的租金內容我收入也不穩定嘛然後我也不清楚說農退租金跟老農今天是可以同時領的好 再來"},{"start":4901.038,"end":4916.291,"text":"那重點啊還是要對於這個行業有黏著度嘛我對我這個行業有信心 我也探緊呀所以其實提高誘因在本席都支持這兩位委員的提案但是我覺得農業部你的本業"},{"start":4917.452,"end":4934.412,"text":"提高這個農業的競爭力其實農業的競爭力不是硬實力是軟實力這是本席一直講什麼叫硬實力就是你的硬體建設其實農業不是這個硬體建設你們的實力是在軟實力的我的品種權啊"},{"start":4936.735,"end":4939.879,"text":"我的行銷啊這個才是能夠讓他們賺錢啊所以其實要提高的是如果本席認同提高國家提撥比例啦但是呢在沒有自由農地的電農這9.5來講你要怎麼特別的"},{"start":4951.171,"end":4968.197,"text":"的保障所以我針對這些原因本席也認為說你應該強化農退租金跟老農經典的政策說明第二個推動農業的智慧化精準化並拓展新市場強化農民的收入第三個你要推動青農職業輔導不僅是吸引青農下鄉更應該提供對接的產銷服務及各級的專家諮詢第四個面對極端氣候的挑戰及市場的開放這本席上次已經都質詢了"},{"start":4978.681,"end":5007.201,"text":"希望加速农业科技的软实力在基因地区资料科学以及AI的应用的升级上缩小我国的经济作物与国际主要的生产国的成本差距好我们就举几个例子日本的麝香葡萄他在2022年的时候发现到中国窃取他的品种这个取名叫做在中国叫做翡翠葡萄在日本叫麝香葡萄结果呢日本认为这是品种权你侵占了我就告"},{"start":5008.482,"end":5032.513,"text":"那這個他就用告那相對於紐西蘭的奇異果中國也是竊取他讓他損失他除了告之外怎麼樣他改變他的商業模式修正他開發新品種變成紅肉的品種而且再透過他的品牌行銷就共固他的市場所以兩個國家兩個策略一個就是告我不研發新品種一個我告我研發新品種賺的更多"},{"start":5034.634,"end":5050.162,"text":"那甚至因為他有品牌我在跟中國買我就覺得紐西蘭很厲害沒關係啊 那個舊的你拿去 中國你拿去之後我給你買來變成我紐西蘭的品牌我賺的更多他反而做代工然後再加上我自己現在在開發的品牌所以這叫做這就是在行銷策略這才是軟實力啊好 這是面對市場開放"},{"start":5057.185,"end":5062.848,"text":"那包括今天豬價我們現在過這個端午節豬價飆高我們已經生產的這個通貨膨脹災災豬價飆高本席了解的豬價飆高的原因是什麼國內的豬仔死亡率過高啊這就是本席主張說豬隻生產的效益低落沒有導入先進的基因定序的原因過去的方法跟技術不是不好而是面對新的挑戰我們需要新的技術跟經驗長期完成農業數據的收集"},{"start":5086.963,"end":5115.12,"text":"才有科學化智慧化的治理的農業好那我回歸本本席的這個建議啊我認為這兩個人兩位立委的提案非常好但是我覺得要你們要有配套措施才更增加誘因第一個現有的補助方案如何勾結連結你的農民退休儲金譬如說你只要農民啊年輕青龍哦你只要願意來來你願意來加入我農民儲金我就每一年"},{"start":5116.281,"end":5140.494,"text":"給你農村年輕化的補助我就每一年給你土地友善的補助農地土地友善補助是包括你們返鄉的補助喔有機肥料每年都會補助你只要三家的一天我就補助你一天譬如這樣你要勾肌連結你才有誘因嘛好但是這個還不夠第二個你農民退休除菁沒有是非牌付條款所以呢請評估本席最在意的就是沒有土地的"},{"start":5142.475,"end":5158.884,"text":"電農 還有青農 你應該相對應的給他保障跟獎勵就是彈性結算 好 譬如說我30歲 我做了6年之後 我真的做不下去了好啊 那你是1比1嘛 或者未來的1比1.5啊那我願意結算給你 你自己繳的那個1或1.5我全部給你 因為儲君有利息 我也還給你 但"},{"start":5165.928,"end":5183.358,"text":"我政府的這個一可能我就沒有辦法全部給你了我彈性也許我就給你六成就好我就給你七成就好類似的概念那這樣我算起來我有彈性可以退場機制啊那我政府的損失也沒那麼高因為它本身就是一個福利政策好 這樣我們沒有走商業保險所以我就覺得你這個彈性的結算跟保障"},{"start":5189.961,"end":5212.296,"text":"我覺得你是要考量的那針對扣結你現在對於青農啊跟土地友善的你只要願意參加除青我就每一年補助給你我覺得這樣才會讓兩位委員的美意大大的提高你的退休除青的這個參與力當然最後我要提出這個上次我質詢我希望你們在6月18號這是你們引落我的喔引落本席的喔針對國際農業先進國家的基因地區在農"},{"start":5220.682,"end":5234.077,"text":"魚 醋葉在台灣你給我提出一個品種參考國際先進的國家的他們的基因定序應用成功的案例提出來你們具體執行的方案好 針對這三點部長你回應一下謝謝委員非常"},{"start":5234.818,"end":5258.533,"text":"深入的這些分析跟建議我先針對最後一點就是618號我們一定會有一個很完整的因為我已經親自去督導他們特別在畜牧業裡面的養豬的部分如何利用基因體育種的方式或者是篩選的方式讓我們的豬隻更健康這第一點那第二點的部分就是您剛才講的彈性結算的部分那依現在來講我們是65歲才可以嘛"},{"start":5258.993,"end":5281.128,"text":"那勞工的部分因為他可以不同的轉可以不同的帶著走但是農業只有一個農業而已所以我覺得這個東西我也會請我們的同仁就是彈性結算但是只還他的啦政府的部分因為他還沒到65歲嘛這個我們再來看看說我覺得不要跟農民叫因為你現在不開辦所以我已經講明了政府的部分你可以佐與"},{"start":5282.449,"end":5286.93,"text":"所以你不要全部都退喔 否則那就沒有用了就是農民你不可以有損失啦他嫁的那個1比1的我農民繳的1你一定要全部還給我本金跟利息你也不要跟農民計較 因為他是儲金講明了就是有利息的所以你要還給農民儲金好 那政府繳的那個1"},{"start":5302.375,"end":5308.563,"text":"那你也不要全部收回去 譬如說你們看有一個比例 按照你的加入的年份也好譬如說你加入10年 我就只給你30%那你加入20年 我政府就只退你退得更少這樣子"},{"start":5322.299,"end":5325.261,"text":"這都是彈性 但是你不要一次全部你懂我意思嗎然後你的政策一定要勾基你的融退比如說我每年都有有機肥料補助欸我只要加入這個融退途徑我就可以每年都有有機肥料的補助"},{"start":5340.609,"end":5358.404,"text":"那這也是一個很好啊 也是鼓勵在有機肥料的使用啊 輕容返鄉我們特別就希望特別輕容返鄉就有相關的補助啊所以你就應該勾結起來 這樣他的意願就會高然後再加上彈性的結算 跟相關的保障而且譬如說 你是電容的跟輕容的"},{"start":5359.425,"end":5383.645,"text":"那我就特別的我特別在這個你的什麼機制上給你在這個農民退休儲金的部分你就可以怎麼樣的特別給他保障這也是可以想的啊譬如說你的1比1當中如果你是電農那我就給你政府退的我就退少一點可以退多一點給你也是一種獎勵啊這個我們會來你們方法很多啦我知道所以都是一個誘因好 謝謝"},{"start":5386.343,"end":5387.624,"text":"好謝謝現在請張祺凱委員做詢答現在陳部長陳部長"},{"start":5422.09,"end":5431.413,"text":"看是不是有品牌沒品牌那平均如果大概一般的傳統市場買可能大概50塊60塊如果說你在店家買有沒有買來吃的可能都上百塊然後大一點小一點所以他的價格那傳統市場買的話可能更便宜大概30幾塊"},{"start":5451.687,"end":5474.575,"text":"都要保證對肉粽一定要了解,因為裡面有豬肉、香菇、鹹鴨蛋,這個都跟你有關對,要看不同地區包的粽子是不一樣的介紹沒有太多,人家說你吃米不知道米幾,吃肉粽不知道肉粽幾我本來是特別去查,其實現在一個肉粽,你如果在北部,基本款稍微沒有很多料的,大概都要65塊了"},{"start":5476.788,"end":5501.337,"text":"那稍微好一點點大概七十五,當然飯店你說的都上百塊的當然正咖南部有稍微便宜一點,不過大概五十五塊都跑不掉我現在講這個,就表示端午節這個八掌比去年是真的漲價了至少漲了大概五到十塊錢那裡面有個特別我今天要問你的,跟你有很大關係你掛保證說第一把端午節不會企業嘛對不對"},{"start":5502.998,"end":5527.172,"text":"我看你很有自信啊,你去接受訪問宣布這個超大好消息,說台灣主要外銷到日本嘛這當然要恭喜,這是農業部也是台灣一個很重要的事情,這是喜事啦我另外看你說你保證當有一個地板,價格不會亂漲你有去注意到它的價格漲了沒有?它的價格現在在95到100之間在浮動,還是在浮動,像今天97塊來來來,我給你看"},{"start":5533.069,"end":5543.782,"text":"今年過年的時候啦 叫九年 一樣都過年來比啦九年 二月過年嘛 那時候一公斤的豬肉 八十七塊三角 漲了多少"},{"start":5546.372,"end":5570.326,"text":"漲了11.5塊錢同樣都是過年啦去年的過年較近年我們過年的時候 大家比較一下去年的過年在2月份嘛 今年在1月份從87.3 漲到98.7啦漲了11塊多 真的幅度是蠻大的好 那這裡就要過端午啦我辦公室就去清查 你看來咧去年的端午節是在六月九十點七二嘛這幾天我們租的價格一公斤"},{"start":5575.256,"end":5589.864,"text":"已經漲到97.21%了漲了6.5%我跟委員報告委員也是來自於農業縣那其實我們在考慮剛才你的角度是從消費的角度那從農民的角度我一定考慮他的成本"},{"start":5590.864,"end":5613.723,"text":"像您剛才講的在2月份的時候87.3元跟95元但那個時間點其實我們的飼料飼料的價格也變高了所以以農委會來講就是我們會去期待的空間從早期的75到85 85到95現在是希望說它能夠至少在這段時間是95到100之間但是我們長期來講是85到95之間是一個比較合理的"},{"start":5618.607,"end":5645.239,"text":"所以我期待就是說他雖然說年節有貴一點但是農民整個粽子裡面有稻農他們希望的米有豬肉他的豬籠還有鴨蛋的鴨籠那這些其實他們就是靠他們沒有所謂的年終獎金他們就是靠在過年過節的時候可能有一點點的高一點對他們來講就是一個福利啦所以以農業部來講我們覺得這個價格是一個合理的一個區間"},{"start":5646.596,"end":5668.161,"text":"對啦 當然 讓消費者 一般的民眾不要買不起粽子或覺得太貴啦 這是第一點嘛而且當然 農民也要顧得到啦所以我今天給你看 就是說老實講 像去年 像過年喔 老實講 幅度真的大了一點11塊多 我不反對要漲啦 當然也要照顧到啦可是幅度不要那麼大 波動不要太大這一次是要漲了11%第二個 今年我現在統計的是到現在 這點可能還在漲"},{"start":5672.862,"end":5694.995,"text":"注意一下啦 當然如果是6.5%可能還好啦不要破百啦 如果那個真的97.21%如果破百的話真的 對啦 最近我跟大家講的95%-100% 我們希望大概這個95%到100%之間注意一下不要破100% 當然豬農 農民我們都要照顧不要破100%好 另外一個今年第一波又另外一個問題就是剛才講的澳洲的這個豬肉啦"},{"start":5697.878,"end":5708.677,"text":"你澳洲你檢查出來那個那些豬肉啊 70噸他現在流到哪裡去 應該不會包到粽子裡面去吧不會齁 這有控制嗎"},{"start":5710.318,"end":5730.512,"text":"以我們農業部來講我關心的是台灣的豬肉那這些進口豬肉本身它是以衛務部來管的它有相關的一個追蹤系統但是第二個我還是要跟委員說明就是說從國外進口的任何國家進口的豬肉我們國家都會嚴格的把關去符合我們國內所定的標準"},{"start":5731.412,"end":5755.337,"text":"那相關的這些萊克多巴胺也有一些國內的制定的標準那一定是在這個標準內符合這樣的規範才能夠進來的所以一定是安全的現在就是剛才說的嘛90%以上的民眾裡面那個瘦肉精不只要標示啦流向要清楚嘛今天特別提出來問的原因就是現在端午節要搞就是又滴肉一定硬著嘛對不對怎麼避免他跑到粽子裡面去"},{"start":5757.944,"end":5779.843,"text":"這個要追一下 要堆一下喔對 那我們農業部付錢就是供來的豬肉我一定給供來的豬肉充足的充分的去供應我們國內的需求這是我們農業部的責任你不知道澳洲那個豬肉到底後來有塑膠精流到哪裡去我想這個是衛福部在主管的我們"},{"start":5781.229,"end":5799.388,"text":"因為權責的關係嘛我剛才說我只負責國內的豬肉要滿足我們國內的需求你可能要問一下啦我會進一步再去問一下你流行到哪裡去了好不好不要再吃掉了90%的民眾都有意見不過基本上他是安全的才能夠讓他進來這個要讓消費者知道啦"},{"start":5800.149,"end":5827.923,"text":"含有萊劑的它只要符合相關的我們的一個殘留標準的話它進來是安全的不要誤導說萊劑就是毒啦我覺得這個以我學自然科學的角度來講它應該是國內政府一定會把關這個部分我想我們一定會再跟消費者多宣導現在就是做兩個嘛第一要把關嘛第二要標示清楚嘛對不對所以要問流暢嘛所以第一個我們要堅持要繼續標示第二肉汁多高啊所以要去追一下那流暢好不好"},{"start":5828.803,"end":5855.981,"text":"好來 那有點時間我給你 這個是算我們超大的喜事嘛因為部長 台灣豬最近就可以銷到日本了這樣子齁 我們其實豬有三大疫病一個是傳統豬瘟 一個是非洲豬瘟 還有一個是口蹄疫那傳統豬瘟 像日本一定要這三大疫病都沒有了才能夠去跟他申請 不是自動就可以輸出啦"},{"start":5856.641,"end":5882.76,"text":"那像菲律賓他覺得認為我們乾淨了我們就可以直接生鮮了嘛新加坡也是所以我們大概其實我們已經已經被WHO就確認了那我們在6月初我想我們會正式的對外公開我們是三大預期這個我想委員都都在農業間都知道這是一個喜事那接下來就是我們怎麼樣好好的利用這樣的一個優勢去跟"},{"start":5883.661,"end":5908.601,"text":"日本市長因為日本市長早期對我們的豬肉他的價位蠻高的對農民來講也是一個增加他收入的來源包括其他的國際行銷那這個部分我想我們會持續來努力那也謝謝委員的關心這很大的啟示讓國人知道我們的豬肉要外銷了連日本我們都要銷到日本去了這很大的好事情謝謝部長現在農業部最近做了一個重要的事情就是要"},{"start":5909.85,"end":5932.628,"text":"做這個光電啦光電要審查農業用地變更以後作為那個太陽光電設施的使用涉及到生態的做一個指引嘛對不對我要特別強調第一老兄光電我們已經推了九年了現在才開始做這個指引老兄說有一點忙有一點忙啦有一點在補破網就是光陽補牢所以速度要加快"},{"start":5933.727,"end":5962.264,"text":"我想生態指引不只是為了光電還有所謂的開發案我們希望這開發案有一個很好的生態指引以前就是沒有很明確的指引的時候會造成很大的爭議所以我希望說這個指引能夠讓我們的生態永續前提之下能夠兼顧到一些公共建設的開發或其他的產業開發太陽光電不只產生了很多這個幣你看光是檢察官起訴的案子超過100件然後你看破壞那個農地"},{"start":5964.332,"end":5991.343,"text":"是非常嚴重的有很多專家跟媒體他們在統計喔你看看說被光電消失的西海岸面積有多大真的很驚悚1.3個台北市的這個面積那裡面老實講很多都是農地我把黃色的框起來不地耕作的地區低地利的這個土地一電共生還有台南這很多土地全部都是農地喔"},{"start":5993.218,"end":6009.827,"text":"所以農地要怎麼保護到農地然後第二個怎麼照顧到我們農民這個要很加油我也可以很明確的報告以農業部的立場來講我們一定會保護我們的農地那農地在處理其他的方案處理產業開發結合的時候兩個方式一個是農許嘛"},{"start":6012.968,"end":6040.671,"text":"那容許我們也是會嚴格看他的經營項目另外一個是變更啦那變更的部分他有他特定的條件而且必須經過區委會同意那以現在來講我們現在變更大概1726公頃那我們針對很容易被拿去兩公頃以下很容易被亂搞所以我們兩公頃以上我們餘力不準除非很特殊的情況所以這個部分"},{"start":6041.551,"end":6058.18,"text":"過去也大概有將近780公頃左右那這個部分就鎖住了以後不會再有2公頃的部分那大型的開發一定會進到區委會那區委會會有一個的審查所以農業部來講我們一定會保護我們的農地做最好的一個利用"},{"start":6059.076,"end":6073.799,"text":"副長我上個月有跟你要資料啦結果你回的就是我剛剛講的嘛現在農地變更了有做光電的1726公頃嘛對不對對那漁電共生的是2620公頃差不多嘿對你有發現沒有是人家專家學者你看"},{"start":6074.68,"end":6098.973,"text":"上萬耶沒有啦,沒那麼多因為我們是一筆一筆統計的有一些是屋頂型的喔很多像敘舍有沒有敘舍上面的屋頂你如果把它鑽進去當然很多啦但是敘舍本身它不會因為你蓋了屋頂而影響到它的農地利用這個部分要拿掉"},{"start":6100.255,"end":6126.57,"text":"部長我們更精準的去算好不好是你給我的看起來跟那個一些專家寫者去算的落差有點大所以你能不能用剛剛講這個整個名目你說埔地耕作區的地利率的這個土地多少給我一個比較精細的好不好會 我們會給你一個比較精細的最後我再問一下 因為時間也到了我最近這兩三個月在注意這個餘電共生我一直問你幾個月了你前面會答應我現在要去查餘電共生上面那個氣溫"},{"start":6128.223,"end":6133.546,"text":"本來它上面蓋的光電只能四十,它現在一百趴那個,你說一個月...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我..."},{"start":6152.758,"end":6180.435,"text":"所以這個部分我們一定會去清查如果不合法的話我們一定會主動的去跟人員去處理部長我這邊有非常具體連地號都有我等一下再拿給你對像這個蓋一個人的地方在台南就是有地方我等一下給你好不好你每天的錢包裡面四個地號我們查了基本上都是合法的因為申請光電的面積跟它蓋的是40%對不對但是它蓋的時候可能在"},{"start":6181.587,"end":6204.912,"text":"在那個餘溫的時候可能會有點集中的情形所以讓你覺得說好像超過了百分之四十但是它整體是合法的這個部分我想我們會整理整理完以後再聽我質詢還有我要給你的是不只超過百分之四十在漁民上面百分之百都蓋了啦對但是它地目申請是符合百分之它在其他地方整體的它百分之四十可以可是餘溫上面就一定是百分之四十嘛對不對"},{"start":6205.552,"end":6205.892,"text":"現在請正天才委員做詢答"},{"start":6242.703,"end":6244.804,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長部長好"},{"start":6256.816,"end":6282.489,"text":"今天這個審查這個我們召委還有郭委員所提的農民退休儲金條例第七條的一個修正要特別把這個主管機關要提繳的部分提高為1.5倍改為1.5倍本來是相同的改為1.5倍農業部的這個報告裡面特別提到"},{"start":6283.841,"end":6289.624,"text":"農民領取老農津貼及農退儲金合計約38,479元這是每月勞工領取勞保老年給付加上勞工退休金合計約每個月33,095元"},{"start":6307.816,"end":6334.391,"text":"你們做這樣的一個比較然後特別提到這個如果修正為這個1.5的話會再提高到45431影響不同職業間的橫貧性而事實上這個如果每一次做一個這個調整然後就要做比較的話那永遠就不能比"},{"start":6335.59,"end":6363.532,"text":"農業就不能調啦所以是有時候是我們這邊調然後去帶動其他的比如說帶動勞工的調整都是有這個需要性何況勞工基本上勞工基本上他是這個每隔月每隔月領薪水啦平常的時候上班還沒有退休的時候"},{"start":6365.322,"end":6389.567,"text":"跟農民不一樣農民是看天吃飯很重要是看天吃飯不只是看天還要看什麼還要看這個消費對不對現在還要看什麼誰要看美國對不對川普的經濟川普的關稅所以這個"},{"start":6390.697,"end":6415.826,"text":"因素也很多啦因素也很多所以這個部分這個再請這個農業部好好的評估然後另外這裡面很重要的這個你們的報告裡面第三點提到經分析農民未參加農退儲金之原因與農民之儲息意願儲息能力有關這個就是平常他的收入有關係啦"},{"start":6417.675,"end":6441.175,"text":"跟他平常跟我剛剛講的有關係所以這個部分是一個他不確定的收入也不像勞工每個月領不像公務連每個月領他不是所以他因素很多所以就會產生這樣的一個考量所以農業部是不是在好好的評估在支持"},{"start":6442.035,"end":6456.07,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告我們農業部的立場絕對沒有否定包括希望委員或國務委員等委員所提的提案那我剛才說的就是我們一開始會做先做客觀的分析那因為以"},{"start":6457.931,"end":6483.589,"text":"農業部來講當然越高對農民越有利可是相對的當政策執行下去的時候也會考慮到跟其他的類似的這樣子一個方的條例或辦法的時候的橫平性所以我們這邊提到的所以我們會再做一些評估同時是不是能夠有一些也達到委員的期待然後有更好的方式也能夠增加更多的"},{"start":6484.749,"end":6512.419,"text":"農民來參加這個除菌我想這是我們共同的目的啦我們一定會很仔細的去做更細部的一個分析這個部分一定不能光用數字去衡量去比較啦必須考量我剛剛講的這些很多的因素所以這個部分也請農業部這邊考量好另外就是這個我一再提的"},{"start":6514.087,"end":6536.746,"text":"這是你們3月26號的報告施行農民退休儲金制度提繳受益人數累計約10.9萬人覆蓋率約33.7%所以光我們從這個跟勞工的就不一樣勞工的很高幾乎是百分之百因為它強制的嘛"},{"start":6537.766,"end":6564.306,"text":"所以這個 老公只有16而已喔志願提交才16個而已喔他們只有16嗎 16我們農業參加退休初見對 那個可能是有包含的那個那個不是 那個叫什麼沒有 那個是雇主提領6%的這個部分我們算過了 這個是16%所以農民本身的一個宣導我們是有加強宣導的效果啦 對好 我們看這個"},{"start":6567.31,"end":6572.416,"text":"這是今天的報告裡面裡面提到這個"},{"start":6576.318,"end":6600.309,"text":"統計114年3月底曾經參加農退儲金受惠人數合計約11萬人含移領這個部分佔未滿65歲且經系統比對符合資格者比例約為49%這個也提高了是吧是這是很好的一個成效好我們看這個"},{"start":6602.349,"end":6605.551,"text":"我還是要再為原住民的農民來記這個是之前的一個數字這個是112年10月31號的數字"},{"start":6620.39,"end":6632.084,"text":"原住民農民提繳農退儲軍的只有佔百分之五點七真的是這個比例很高我跟委員更新一下這個數據您這邊的數據是去年的數據嗎有這邊有你們這個新的"},{"start":6640.948,"end":6647.714,"text":"新的數據現在還有更新的現在是866現在更新的是972到3月27號的是866現在已到上個禮拜是972972我們很努力的在做宣導所以這個部分這個宣導之外你們就是要去了解"},{"start":6666.348,"end":6678.896,"text":"原因啊原因是不是他就是刚才你的报告里面提的搅不起所以这个部分所以在这样的一个情况之下是不是可以思考"},{"start":6680.708,"end":6706.757,"text":"這個制度的調整制度的調整就原住民的部分也許就有一個制度的調整希望他們能夠講而起或怎麼樣去做鼓勵所以這個部分所以這個是一個你們在宣導的時候也了解一下原因是什麼好不好會 我們每次宣保的時候都會收集相關的意見因為在這樣的一個比例如果從這個"},{"start":6712.516,"end":6728.554,"text":"783這是112年的10月31號的數字經過你們的努力之後到3月今年的3月27是866沒有增加多少 不到100嘛增加的然後你現在是900多嘛 900幾"},{"start":6731.636,"end":6755.708,"text":"現在是972然後現在的農保的人數也降低了大概是11995人所以那個比例有增加那是因為那個農民的人數我們參加的人數也增加了然後總農保的人數有稍微下降所以它是浮動的啦那我跟委員報告"},{"start":6757.049,"end":6779.428,"text":"整體看起來是百分之八好像比平均的還低但是有一些縣市幾乎都是零啦這個部分就是我們宣傳的重點那有一些縣市我想像嘉義的其實嘉義的其實有達到百分之五十然後剩下的有達到像台南的有達到百分之三十五桃園的有達到百分之二十五"},{"start":6780.129,"end":6796.982,"text":"但是因為有零的關係他會把整體的平均拉下來那這些資訊都是我們未來宣導的一個重點特別是針對比較比例比較低的部分好這個部分這個新的數據再提供給我好謝謝好謝謝現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答"},{"start":6808.536,"end":6809.016,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請陳部長"},{"start":6819.417,"end":6847.707,"text":"我們來討論這個老農津貼因為本席有提案我們老農津貼排庫的條款14年沒有檢討但是到目前為止我們看到長期的通貨膨脹以及公告地價房價上漲不少實際上他真的生活有困難的老農也因為這樣的原因非他所願那僅因土地增值而喪失了勤領的資格"},{"start":6848.507,"end":6851.117,"text":"那导致什么呢?帐面有地"},{"start":6852.482,"end":6880.701,"text":"實際無資源帳面有地實際無資源的矛盾持續所以農業部雖然你有說了我們的排付條款排付條件是比其他的社府寬鬆一點但是曾經在107年修法放寬的條件根本沒有辦法去解決因為物價以及地價所變化所帶來的自動失格"},{"start":6881.946,"end":6899.484,"text":"自動失格所以會導致整個制度的失衡跟民怨串起所以本席首先要請教部長本席所提出的老農津貼暫行條例的第四條修正條文當中您是不是支持"},{"start":6901.886,"end":6930.006,"text":"由原先我們大概是現在限定是500萬那這個應該要有所提升也就是因應剛剛本席所說的他因為房價上漲公告地價上漲導致形成了帳面有地那實際無資源導致自動失格的這個情況那你是不是支持老農今天應該要與時俱進來保障老農"},{"start":6931.294,"end":6951.468,"text":"的一個晚年生活請說明我想基本上農業部的立場是支持這樣子的一個排布條款的修正當然那整個排布條款大概分為幾個部分一個部分就是所得的部分一個部分是財產的部分另外一個部分是你唯一自住房子的金額的調整所以你目前設定的五百萬"},{"start":6953.618,"end":6971.176,"text":"14年沒有修 這個有討論空間嘛對不對絕對有 那你要趕快支持啊本席提案啊 暫停條例第四條啊不是 我想我們在上個會期本身我們就有把我們的方案送到行政院去"},{"start":6971.896,"end":6998.798,"text":"那行政院在上個會期的時候曾經討應該是在113年的2月份去年嘛去年就是520以前啦現在進度到底到哪裡那我們把我們的方案送到行政院那行政院那時候初步的討論是說要跟八大社會同步啦那我們是希望我們的情況跟社會不一吧所以你從去年2月"},{"start":7001.32,"end":7024.316,"text":"到現在進度呢沒有 因為最後的核定我想我們還會跟行政院做積極的爭取包括我剛才說的因為整個公告的價格有沒有 現值已經有調升了嘛那我們這個部分應該 排付的部分應該也要從500萬可以拉 剛好看要拉到700或是800那這個數目是可以 本期提案800萬嘛"},{"start":7025.117,"end":7040.573,"text":"沒有我覺得這個是本席的提案然後還有就是鎖的部長我也知道本席也知道你對於農業你是全力以赴的支持但是你要有方法啊你從去年的二月份送給行政院到現在超過一年了"},{"start":7041.794,"end":7068.556,"text":"一年將近要三個月了那我們怎麼辦你不能只有嘴巴說我支持啊你現在是農業部長欸你怎麼樣跟行政院要支持你啊我們都支持你啊支持農業啊行政院也非常重視這個訊息非常重視這個訊息一年多沒給答案我們基本上因為這個考量到還有其他社會的同步請問接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":7069.216,"end":7085.084,"text":"接下來我想我們會請專案報告給卓院長這邊了解什麼時候專案報告給卓院長送到行政院二月份到現在一年三個月我們會盡快的聯絡下個禮拜送"},{"start":7089.304,"end":7118.268,"text":"我們已經送進去行政院了基本上我們會安排跟院長做專案報告然後看看其他的社福的什麼時候安排專案報告哪有一個行政效率一年三個月還沒有達我們會努力來安排時間啦多久會安排我上禮拜就開始安排了啦你上禮拜安排喔你下禮拜就快走啊我相信很快的就是你相信很快我還再一次相信你的很快"},{"start":7119.965,"end":7142.222,"text":"因為時間不是我決定的 但是我們有在做這件事情我們要積極啦我們沒有辦法管控別人管控自己一年三個月我們得不到答案我腦農多可憐 自動失格是因為你房價上漲 是因為你公告地價上漲所以實際上生活是有困難的"},{"start":7145.325,"end":7172.782,"text":"趕快加油 是我期待下個禮拜能夠看到聽到你的專案報告給我們答案 好不好接下來本期要請教農業金庫的問題5月21號媒體也給你報導了我們一兆的錢一兆的錢六成來自於我們的農漁會但是我們的董建市會15席裡頭10席是你政府指派"},{"start":7174.301,"end":7197.569,"text":"出六成的人只有五席有一點失衡所以本席具體建議我先跟委員報告這個資訊本席具體建議可以再來調整很多人會怕說是不是有政治力的介入我不希望看到這樣子所以第一個等一下題目先講完第一個席次可以來做討論有討論的空間讓他能夠均衡"},{"start":7203.629,"end":7225.006,"text":"第二個 本席要請教因為很多人怕說會有政治力的影響所以 部長你有沒有討論 研議是不是得以讓第三方的監督力量進來可以讓他更加的中立更加的透明因為我們知道說"},{"start":7226.365,"end":7239.157,"text":"政府 尤其農業部長您我是非常敬佩您我絕對支持政府要輔導我們的農業轉型在現階段是非常非常的重要農業轉型之後還要再跟這個國際來接軌"},{"start":7242.284,"end":7261.469,"text":"因為都是地球村跟國際來接軌所以有更透明更苛責的這個制度絕對對我們的農業轉型跟世界接軌它絕對更有幫助換句話說這兆元的資金能夠更有效的用在我們農民農業所需請說明"},{"start":7264.53,"end":7293.269,"text":"第一個 您這邊講到說只有五席來自農漁會其實在15席 董事裡面有九席那農業部的關股的部分我們也有兩席是由農會來的然後獨立董事裡面的五席當然啦 那是你派的啊雖然他是農業 但是你派的啊對不對所以基本上 這個就是您講的就是說你去討論好不好我希望的是資金出的人是六成那我們要怎麼樣去均衡"},{"start":7294.791,"end":7312.992,"text":"讓制度不失衡這是重點第二個本席請問你的是不是同意讓我們的造園資金可以更公開透明所以換句話說地方第三方的這個監督機制得以去研議加入我想讓整個的一個"},{"start":7317.254,"end":7331.196,"text":"執行面的部分做更該透明 我絕對同意那剛才委員也特別提到因為農業金庫是我們的很多農業的方案的一個合法的單位所以不應該有太多的政治力介入"},{"start":7332.678,"end":7360.577,"text":"就是人民在監督不希望的但是相對的你看嘛我們現在的公股的董事長他是一個專業經理人那用專業的方式去經營農業經股是我們農業部要求的所以你更可以同意讓第三方監督機智進場嘛對有一些更公開的部分去做處理理性研議啦理性研議方案怎麼樣我們的目標要公開透明很重要但是不希望說去調整到他的在接下來本席最後一個議題請問"},{"start":7362.355,"end":7383.602,"text":"我看到我們的社群裡頭 媒體報導有這個動物收容所的管理員 他把狗灌水 掃餵食然後他說他因為他怕狗 他不想掃大便 所以他這麼做 他自己承認"},{"start":7385.034,"end":7411.113,"text":"我們台灣社會怎麼會有這樣的一個現象產生呢所以我們從機制面來看收容所的人員的遴選跟工作配置是不是應當要有訓練要有專業要有適任性部長 是不是應當要如此我絕對同意齁你絕對同意 接下來本席再跟你說這樣子的一個情況那發生了這個調職"},{"start":7412.984,"end":7437.529,"text":"那你後續要怎麼做所以本席具體建議請教部長面對這樣子的缺失你的監督機制在哪裡你整個全國性的聘任最重要本席強調的訓練機制你要怎麼做你是不是還有國會走來走去你的跨縣市的一個監督機制跟集合"},{"start":7439.589,"end":7467.255,"text":"懲戒你是不是應該去研討你至少要保障動物最低的一個保障嘛這是基本條件嘛要怎麼做請教委員上次質詢也提到這樣的一個案子那其實我們也遵照委員的建議包括在職訓練要怎麼樣更落實那怎麼還會這樣子的情況發生呢這個聘任制度要怎麼樣去確保然後還有就是說"},{"start":7469.136,"end":7494.506,"text":"當你在做這個事情的時候你根本不知道他真正對動物的愛心或是行為當你有愛心的話絕對不會做這種事情所以遇到這種事情的話那些懲處不只是吊詞我覺得應該有更嚴謹的回歸到動保法的相關的處罰條例那這個部分我們已經在做專案的時候因為還要跟各縣市在做一個比較有效的做專案的處理發生事情我們必須該當權責要怎麼去理清楚"},{"start":7498.087,"end":7516.977,"text":"第二個是本席也非常重視的也就是發生了這個事情我們要盤點一下我們的訓練機制到底夠不夠這個很重要你把你們訓練的機制方式以及成效這個成果一份書面資料給本席我們規劃完以後我們就會提供給委員一定要落實好 謝謝"},{"start":7533.834,"end":7552.891,"text":"好 接下来我们请谢一芬委员 请做询答好 谢谢主席 我想要请陈部长我们请部长"},{"start":7559.588,"end":7575.449,"text":"委員好部長好去年我們颱風影響到荔枝的樹勢所以今年荔枝的佐果又受到低溫的影響那我們彰化有很多的荔枝果園的話會受損嚴重其中以"},{"start":7575.99,"end":7600.471,"text":"黑葉、玉荷包等的那個品種最為嚴重所以農業部他公告說彰化縣是符合天然災害救助的標準是不是那但是我們現在的農業保險裡面卻只有針對氣溫太高以及降雨太多才會啟動理賠那這個部分未來是不是可以提供給農民更好的保險內容"},{"start":7601.632,"end":7622.68,"text":"第一個就是非常謝謝委員的關心特別是針對荔枝的一個產業發展那我們也去看了縣幹分兩個部分天然摘的部分我們看的確花開得很漂亮但是沒有佐果的部分所以我們開了天然摘來救助第二個部分就是農業保險的部分農業保險本身它現在是開水跟溫度"},{"start":7624.221,"end":7642.856,"text":"但是相對的因為他必須由我們的試驗單位去界定多少的雨量跟多少的多低的溫度會影響那這個部分我也已經請我們試驗場的同仁去做更明確的界定那界定完了以後就可以納到保險裡面去"},{"start":7643.516,"end":7664.822,"text":"好那過去我們除了就是荔枝春夏以外其實我們荔枝細蚵對於荔枝的落果以及外觀也會造成影響會影響到我們荔枝的品質那所以未來除了春夏以外對於荔枝細蚵我們可以有什麼樣子的處置"},{"start":7665.582,"end":7688.041,"text":"我想我們基本上都像荔枝春相本身它有生物防治跟非生物防治嘛看它不同的時間點那荔枝繫兒的時候我們也可以用其他的方式像用特定的光譜特定的光譜去照射的時候讓它不會吸引它那這個部分在實驗單位都有些成果我們會盡量的"},{"start":7689.622,"end":7707.279,"text":"因為荔枝蟹兒牠怕光嘛對不對牠又不能藍光 特別的光啦 特定風暴的話牠可以去那個 對所以我們就可以利用這樣子來防治嘛 是好 那再回到我們今天的主題喔其實我們今天修的這個農民退休條例第七條喔"},{"start":7709.727,"end":7733.77,"text":"那個部長你知道嘛其實我們提供的這個相關的提撥金額是對於農民有一個比較好的保障而且其實我們第7條的第3項第4項有講到就是我們提收的退撥儲金不計入當年度"},{"start":7735.235,"end":7762.535,"text":"怎麼樣提繳的這個其他的所得課稅嘛是不是那其實對於農民有一個比較好的而且這個跟老農年金不一樣嘛那我們當初在推行的時候就發現到很多農民他如果加入農保或是相關的他有時候其他的課稅太高的時候他沒有辦法領到那個他會被剔除耶"},{"start":7763.015,"end":7768.612,"text":"是不是?是他會被剔除農民資格欸對那他就沒有辦法領導農年金欸沒有"},{"start":7771.324,"end":7793.363,"text":"農民退休儲金你要加保的時候你農保一定是綠燈所有的條件都符合那這個部分因為有些農民他擔心他的農保可能短時間剛好有點換地質或是土地有一些買賣或什麼的所以他就不敢加保那這個可能就是我們必須要去更加強的宣導的一個原因"},{"start":7793.863,"end":7812.093,"text":"不只這個啦還有其他的相關的啦就是說大家對於這個其他的條例的部分那當然你知道說我們那個勞農津貼有很多農民在最後的時候他可能因為土地的轉移等等的"},{"start":7812.773,"end":7838.648,"text":"他可能都沒有辦法領到這些不過他不影響老農津貼嘛老農年金的影響不影響65歲以上對 我是說他有可能都沒有辦法領到老農津貼你知道線型上面線型上面對啦 那個就是排富的部分那排富的部分剛才也說了委員也在關心排富條款我們就盡可能的努力去讓這個排富條款能夠做適度的放寬這個我們會來努力"},{"start":7840.325,"end":7864.296,"text":"你們會去努力嗎對我們本身就認同這樣的方式會努力嗎我們認同這樣的方式我認為喔其實我們提高這個比例喔那還是放在政府的部門裡面啊是不是我們提高了這個比例最後還是放在政府部門裡面啊是不是不是最後放在是不是勞保沒有他的個人的賬戶裡面喔我是說"},{"start":7866.4,"end":7882.157,"text":"我是說當然啦最後是個人的賬戶裡面可是他還是給勞保局的那個基金運用管理局來全權處理嘛還是政府的基金部位嘛是不是那所以你有問過嗎其他的勞保基金"},{"start":7883.098,"end":7911.499,"text":"管理局他們也有沒有意見那財政部有沒有相關意見那其實在某種程度上面我們還是在政府的基金操作裡面啊是不是那我們還是維持相關的穩定的那個啊那其實也沒有說也沒有說給予農民的比例有什麼樣子的提高只是提高他的保障而已嘛是不是那連這樣子提高他們的保障"},{"start":7912.66,"end":7929.055,"text":"我覺得這個也沒有什麼沒有什麼好值得那個我跟委員報告就是所提到的1.5比1的部分他會把天花板打開就是他退休時候領的月退的部分會更高啦"},{"start":7930.036,"end":7943.369,"text":"那委員一直關心就是說怎麼樣...他是根據我們的定存的嘛定存的利率嘛 是不是不過您所提的版本是1.5的部分是他繳100塊 政府撥150"},{"start":7946.071,"end":7970.279,"text":"又多了150給放在這個儲金多了50塊所以到30年以後它累積的月退會更高但是我知道委員的想法就是要支持我們的農民去加入減輕農民負擔所以我們用另外一個思維就是我們同樣是100塊對100塊現在就是說有沒有可能政府多出一點然後農民負擔少一點"},{"start":7970.999,"end":7994.61,"text":"那這樣的話他的天花板沒打開200塊沒有變成250的時候那跟其他的勞保的這些年金比起來就不會差太多那你有試算過嗎試算過怎麼樣子對政府的縱效是比較好的啊是不是你要對於政府整體的縱效這個我提出的提高1就是說我們提高的相關的1.5的比率"},{"start":7996.531,"end":8014.443,"text":"對政府來講也是放在共同的基金運用裡面啊是不是那對於我們這樣子整體的運作來講也沒有什麼有損失的部分嗎我跟你講喔它所增加的金額15億其實不是很巨大"},{"start":8015.123,"end":8030.218,"text":"但是考量到就是說他30年後退休以後他所領的跟勞工朋友所領的你今天都沒有一個試算的比例嗎你只有增加你只是把它兩個加起來其實農民有時候根本也領不到這個相關的兩個加起來的"},{"start":8032.56,"end":8049.577,"text":"沒有你如果持續從事農業的話你那種農年金一定可以領然後同時你的農民退休儲金可以領然後加起來是大概是四萬五千多如果一點五的話那勞工朋友才領三萬三啊那現在的情勢是我們領三萬八可是你要知道他們兩個的所"},{"start":8050.558,"end":8069.106,"text":"他們兩個的那個條件是不一樣的農民退休儲金跟勞保的那個退休金那是不一樣的喔是不是又跟公保跟那個公務人員的退休金是不一樣的計算方式喔我們有更好勞保的退休儲金是雇主"},{"start":8070.046,"end":8093.073,"text":"提撥最高百分之六那我們現在的制度是政府幫你提撥百分之十最高百分之十所以已經比勞保更好了所以我希望說未來是朝向怎樣也符合委員的期待就是我們減輕農民的負擔他獲得一樣的保障那那個保障在30年後試算的時候也比勞工朋友好一些這是我們的目標"},{"start":8094.44,"end":8115.727,"text":"所以你的意思是說你不支持這樣子你要提出其他的是不是那你提出其他的說預算是一樣還是怎樣我想委員提的我們一定尊重而且也是選擇的方案之一然後我們會把不同的方案去做更詳細的評估然後再看看說哪一個方案是"},{"start":8116.607,"end":8130.846,"text":"包括對我們的農民朋友是最有利的那以我們現在的了解農民朋友是希望減少他的每個月的負擔啊減少每個月的負擔就是說保障一樣但是政府出多一點"},{"start":8132.232,"end":8159.257,"text":"他們出少一點我是可以同意說我們可以把不同的條件拿出來比較但是我覺得說以目前這樣子的方式因為我們當初在委員會有提出討論的時候我們就有說到其實我們就應該要隔年度就是說來再討論這個比例以及就是說怎麼樣子能夠增加農民的加保的加保率"},{"start":8159.957,"end":8186.885,"text":"那未來怎麼樣子來提高農民的加保率以及怎麼樣子來增加我們就是農業的從業人員或者對不對這個都是我們當初希望討論的方向也是我們努力的目標就是特別委員一直關心包括上個會議你也關心的就是覆蓋率的問題有一些農民他現在沒有辦法參加農民職業災農民的退休儲金有沒有辦法"},{"start":8187.785,"end":8206.356,"text":"替他們解決一些問題把他納進來包括有一些有沒有曾經操控要過勞保的嘛所以這個部分我們都同步在研議包括您所提的方案還有郭文委員所提的方案還有我們想到的方案還有一些可以讓更多人加入的這些方案都納進來以後這樣的話來討論會比較什麼時候"},{"start":8210.879,"end":8227.591,"text":"你什麼時候可以提出我想我們會在最近一個月之內應該就有一個因為我們也延期的差不多了那有個重點就是說我們的方案也要經過行政院來了解跟同意所以目前你們的方案是沒有經過行政院就對了"},{"start":8227.991,"end":8255.036,"text":"對 我們沒有經過行政院最後的方案是沒辦法確定的包括現在的老農津貼行政院也說因為八大基金要橫平性但是我們會去爭取農業可不可以先行這個部分我們包括農民的退休儲金的部分的一些調整的機制那也要行政院這邊能夠得到支持因為有得到行政院支持才有經費啦好 那希望你敬述好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":8258.037,"end":8271.525,"text":"好 謝謝我們也希望部長的問題通通都知道速度要加快要不然我們都是只有在講問題都沒有講解決方案加油好 謝謝現在請陳超明委員做詢問"},{"start":8285.331,"end":8310.36,"text":"陳昌明問人 尋答結束 休息五分鐘首先有請陳部長陳部長部長 我就要轉卡雖然我是在野黨"},{"start":8311.823,"end":8327.425,"text":"但是我都在推銷你們的三保義軍三保 農民健康保險 農民災害保險 農業保險現在再來就是農民退休資金的保險"},{"start":8329.295,"end":8352.284,"text":"但是我想這個問題,會在上個會期跟你們爭吵了很久都沒有動好像給農民多一點,會掛你們的肉,會掛國家的骨頭,還是什麼樣將來,下個會期是預算的審查三次公諒,立法院做了決議你們的不遵照執行,沒有關係"},{"start":8353.869,"end":8380.42,"text":"第二個 我跟委員報告喔 那個1月3日方案來的喔 在苗栗喔這也都會很高興耶 我們的方案喔 他們真的覺得不錯耶我不是要說高興就帶 但是我下去的時候 大家說我講了20幾年都沒有表情啊你做什麼立法委員 說你來吃冰凍喔你去掛下去 農會幫你洗奶 幫你剝茄 你就開心但是我周一的情形跟你不一樣嘛"},{"start":8380.7,"end":8401.574,"text":"不是,我跟議員報告,我們看現在的產地價,比去年現在從屏東開始開的都是快到一千一毫每百台幣,過去都差不多九百幾而已,所以現在的產地價已經拉了快一百塊。實在說啊,農民很可憐的啦,他有時候去工廠打工來做這些啦。我們也很辛苦,我們一定會去照顧。我現在跟你說,不然我們來打賭一下。"},{"start":8403.036,"end":8404.938,"text":"我怎麼可以聽到你們立法院的決議我不執行"},{"start":8419.497,"end":8423.341,"text":"你這樣講誤會我你誤會我我不會誤問你我不會說在野黨提的我就不尊重我一定從專業的角度你講官話越來越選我一定從專業你都很誠實現在都會隨時再反應來 我跟你打賭一下"},{"start":8442.974,"end":8456.307,"text":"下一個會期是預算明年是選舉年第一天你會碰到的問題工糧收購的問題絕對會遇到大家為了選票會給你開支票現在我給你一個information消息"},{"start":8460.128,"end":8482.434,"text":"台南市在市長的辭陷就把農民偶爾爭取權益列為第一個所以供糧收購你要去面對啦現在我們沒有關係啦反正決議也不做我們也講你們這樣對台灣自己國內的家暴你們都不執行偶爾我們來跨跨跨跨大家再來比一次第二個"},{"start":8483.76,"end":8510.48,"text":"老農今天勢必大家提起來現在八千塊如果提到一萬塊、一萬兩千塊你會知道政敵的人全都選票這些人都會把你踢出來到時候你要不要去面對這對台南發動的總統的故鄉市長候選人提出來就在逼狗這是第一的問題你要遇到"},{"start":8513.313,"end":8514.937,"text":"那裡的流浪潛艇在那裡,"},{"start":8522.266,"end":8541.946,"text":"排戶條款,排戶條款說幾個年怎麼會說幾個變,現在通貨膨脹,一公尺大概一百萬,這幾年條款兩百萬、三百萬、五百萬,變成一千萬,比比皆是,那些勞動津貼,很多都要被取消掉。"},{"start":8543.158,"end":8563.026,"text":"我不是我也要做事啊不是我的財政是自然增加你也要去調整不然碰到這樣的問題很多你們要改變嗎我剛才說的排布條款的部分從工業部來支持所以我們有提配套的組織我不曉得你的肩膀有多用膝蓋有"},{"start":8564.026,"end":8574.319,"text":"我已經送到行政院去了我跟妳講今年預算大家開始吵了把疫情都全部翻出來因為你們當時都沒有做"},{"start":8575.959,"end":8598.351,"text":"我是跟你講啦因為我是愛護你希望你繼續留部長我先把問題告訴你喔讓你有準備喔不然你會被修理得東倒西歪喔我先跟你講所以你那麼照顧馬雲綠我一定要替你想那今天是談到我們農民的退休措施我聽你講譬如我假設"},{"start":8600.389,"end":8613.6,"text":"我們基本工資如果是三萬塊一%是三百塊政府也是三百塊你現在意思是10%就三千塊政府是三千塊你意思是說如果剛剛兩千塊政府來分成四千塊這樣"},{"start":8623.479,"end":8651.516,"text":"對不對 多了你減低農民的那個我還知道聽你說什麼我是這樣子齁 就是說我有一百塊去省啦農民搞一百本來政府也搞一百 兩百塊嘛那我們現在要減輕農民的負擔農民搞八十 你搞八十這樣類似這樣的比例 比例還要再精算一下你就是農民的時候是不能比勞工多我問你思維要改變要是我做補償 現在缺農很多人不去種田"},{"start":8652.728,"end":8674.021,"text":"不要緊 我把他拿過來你說只差到20 讓臺灣農民覺得算你用這個觀念去想 大家在跟我說負擔多 他們都沒有想到未來我覺得要提高給他們沒有 委員我都認同 就是我們希望農民的照顧更到位"},{"start":8674.241,"end":8689.619,"text":"你退休金管大家都要來作信嘛不然現在年輕人怎麼作信青龍也是越來越臭的啊那我是這樣子講你說1.2政府交1.8如果我們老龍的退休金贏過"},{"start":8691.499,"end":8712.096,"text":"那個勞工的退休金大家來從農 大家來遮農藥我們政治農業就會好好發展你怎麼不去吸引民眾觀念改變啦 我知道啦你們就是不行 因為勞工的人士比農民的人士還多啦我只對農民負責齁我提出那個分析齁"},{"start":8713.217,"end":8741.895,"text":"要找到一些可能未來會被挑戰的一些數據然後我們從這個數據裡面去找到一個因應之道我不是拿這個數據說我不同意我覺得我不是拿這個數據說我不同意喔因為那時有跟你們在講跟你們講好我們試做就1比1啊現在你的覆蓋率又不足表示不夠吸引力我就都把你找出來你們的試算表我都出來了"},{"start":8743.397,"end":8751.392,"text":"我都幫你找出來 我會去那裡說 好吧起步的話 要有開始才有未來所以我現在建議你變成"},{"start":8754.099,"end":8772.705,"text":"農民1.2,政府1.8,好,我大家不要來做農民啊,你也不用煩惱崔工,煩惱越做越好,觀念改變,農民不是弱勢團體,你要提升農民的位置,這一點你好好做,我相信會提升農民的位階,愛這些人,有人要帶,"},{"start":8775.126,"end":8803.747,"text":"退休免煩惱我也想報告就是委員現在兩個兩個版本我們也會尊重也會去分析然後我們有一些想法剛才也跟委員做了溝通也會把他看看哪一個更好還有其他的必須要去協助讓他加入的我們會有一個完整的分析但是我現在做了還沒有一個習慣那個勞農津貼可能你面對的要提升我告訴你生意是夠了我太了解了"},{"start":8804.688,"end":8821.098,"text":"第一 排污的條款通貨膨脹 物價上升 臨時台北的漆黑貴重我們整個要稍微伸展一下 某些條規500萬 這就都要調升這個排污條款 還有工作地價是自然形成的"},{"start":8823.167,"end":8843.969,"text":"這個農保都沒有,這樣不行還有如果配合國家中大政策的時候也要去考慮不然我們要好好研究一下不是死板板的有時候很多你們可以用法律權盡命令來跟說配合國家中大建設他們要負責勞保交錢給你們嘛你們如果不去想這樣"},{"start":8846.042,"end":8856.33,"text":"什麼國家政策 農民的去到產業裡面的光電怎麼會看到那麼漂亮的農地啊 要說下去已經過了我們不承認自己的統一 不檢討自己我告訴你 討論可以 條件可以說的好不好 不能說農民說的我沒辦法"},{"start":8867.639,"end":8880.141,"text":"你如果要農地種田的話叫他們負責農保全部要去強制在裡面這樣你就蓋掛在那裡困難有很多方式可以解決啊"},{"start":8881.755,"end":8906.105,"text":"生意人創意是什麼條件怎麼樣兩方面互利最好你只想到這個一點沒有改革好不好我會再向委員請教啦不要不要不要 我不敢你給我在管理 給我多多補治 給我多多講我建議多多那個 給我完成我就行兩份物流 拜託還有農後漁港 你講的啊我是紳士 紳士啊 這要給我幫忙"},{"start":8908.646,"end":8925.795,"text":"這幾十年的免疫代表我把這樣兩件完成啊我可以功成身退 好不好拜託一下謝謝 我不得自己愛情你更不敢說話我們有提供規劃會等規劃出來以後我們再來規劃我有都有都在準備了好 謝謝你啊 拜託了好 謝謝 休息五分鐘"},{"start":9272.374,"end":9274.976,"text":"好 現在請賴銳榮委員做詢答"},{"start":9280.08,"end":9280.564,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯 請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":9289.295,"end":9317.467,"text":"市長我想這個大家今天提的主要也都希望給農民退休儲金有更好的一些待遇然後也給這個農民更多的支持大方向上我想大家都是朝這個方向在努力那但是我也看到了大概初步的一些規劃上也有考慮到包括農民跟勞工之間的恆平性上的問題然後我其實我也鼓勵未來應該更多都朝向給予他們更多支持的方向就農民勞工其實都是比較辛苦的都應該給予更多支持那"},{"start":9317.947,"end":9336.216,"text":"在這樣的狀況下的話這個部長這邊那未來會朝向是政府多一點點支持嗎補貼的方式嗎多一點我跟委員報告就是從我們實際上再去了解就是農民催促儲金農民朋友在考慮的特別是青農朋友在考慮的第一個是他們的儲蓄習慣"},{"start":9337.576,"end":9361.65,"text":"對那他們第二個是他們的除夕的這些相關的能力啦那能力的部分因為特別在青農的部分他們才剛進入從事農業可能10年以下他們對到65歲還有很長的一段時間他們覺得說不確定性蠻高的所以他們期待的是能夠降低他們的負擔那所以"},{"start":9362.39,"end":9367.175,"text":"委員雖然提的我們也尊重而且我們也會演繹他現在是我舉個例子100對100現在是100對100那未來是100對150嘛"},{"start":9371.946,"end":9392.311,"text":"對於還沒有加入的人就部長的建議反倒是降低現在農民的負擔對 這樣的話意願會比較提高對 就未來的變化還很多但是降低他們的負擔政府多協助 多提撥一點然後農民提撥少一點但是總額其實是沒有改變那這樣對他們實際上的幫助會來更大會朝這個方向對 會朝這個方向因為剛好"},{"start":9394.231,"end":9408.548,"text":"當年在勞工退休金的時候剛好我那時候我也在勞委會服務所以剛好我參與到其中我也認為其實是一個很好的制度甚至很多還會自己加碼提多所以我覺得這個制度面其實是一個好的制度面那我也希望未來如果朝廷部長這樣的方向的話"},{"start":9409.328,"end":9429.851,"text":"就是我們在給政府多提一點然後給農民少提一點的話那希望在未來的部分給予讓他們有更多的一些支持一方面他們資金的調度會比較好一點一方面也給予他們更多未來退休生活後的保障我覺得這是一個好的方向啦那也請部長盡快把這個方案提出來好不好好會這個預定什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":9430.311,"end":9442.205,"text":"我想我們大概的方案除了委員的版本我們會去分析以外那我們剛才提的這些概念還有一個非常重要也是委員您也在關心的就是有一些過去曾經是從事勞工的對"},{"start":9445.128,"end":9469.478,"text":"他為了不放棄他的勞保的方式然後但是他又持續從事農業那這個部分是沒有辦法獲得保障的我們也希望說這個部分能夠用什麼樣的機制讓他們也能夠加入農民退休儲金就讓他能夠銜接進來能夠整個來支持能夠變成類似雙軌的概念我覺得這個都是好的方向我們會整體的提出來以後就整體來思考一下因為"},{"start":9470.998,"end":9487.583,"text":"農民跟勞工都是相對上比較辛苦的比較那個那如果給予他們多一點支持我想這個大家都是有共識的啦那如果怎麼樣他們有些過去他們的思考點在轉軌的過程怎麼去轉得更順一點給他們更多的支持好不好這個請部長再多費心那一定什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":9488.984,"end":9505.196,"text":"我們的方案大概已經分析的跟研擬的差不多了第一個我們先要跟行政院做報告因為所有的資金所以下個會期進到立法院來應該是可以如果說我們的方案獲得行政院同意的話下個會期就會進來"},{"start":9506.237,"end":9534.447,"text":"就下一位進來我們希望下一期進數來完成我們現在第一個第一階段就是要獲得行政院的支持跟同意對 因為行政院會有恆平上的整體的考量對 它又有跟農民勞工跟其他的所有的事情恆平上的考量它應該會有一次性的思考是好那我們期待下個會期來進數來通過那再來我先請教一下我看到部長也有在談論到農業金庫這個農業金庫有將近一兆的一個金額那大家也都很擔憂"},{"start":9535.287,"end":9550.464,"text":"部長我們現在能不能完全的掌控好這樣的一個農業金庫的運作我相信農業金庫第一個農業金庫現在的經營我們用專業經理人像現在的董事長就是專業的一個經理人所以我們希望說農業金庫它是"},{"start":9552.366,"end":9574.732,"text":"協助我們農業的各項資金金融的支持還有對於我們的農會的信用部的一些監管的部分我們會更落實那這個這樣的一個過程中我們都希望有更好的措施所以在經驗農業部能不能精準的去掌握住農業經貨我知道很多人大概都想要掌握到農業經貨中我們現在是"},{"start":9576.752,"end":9602.493,"text":"我們的公股包括我們的獨立董事我們是能夠具有主導權現在主導權幾席我們總共主導權應該有5席的獨董加6席的公股是11席所以15席裡面有11席是可以那個那我還是要請部長還是要因為這集到整個國家的整體的對農民的權益跟整體我覺得這個事情還是要由政府來主導"},{"start":9603.093,"end":9629.329,"text":"這個才會讓大家信任但是我們主導過程中我們也會讓農會來參與所以15席裡面總共有9席是農漁會的代表就是農漁會也能夠充分的表達那個意見所以我們希望說在這個政股主導的過程中也能夠讓農會來參與這個提供意見大家都沒有問題我講的是主導權因為畢竟它關股的這個還是有相當重要的那現在有很多提到說持股1%以上就能夠來"},{"start":9630.791,"end":9647.487,"text":"獲得提名權 這個部長支持這樣的方案嗎我們基本上不希望用這樣的方式喔最主要就是說當你有一趴的時候那相對的因為大概很多農會組成的嘛他就可以提一些董事那你也知道農會有定期的選舉那選舉裡面也有一些分導嘛"},{"start":9648.368,"end":9668.404,"text":"那很容易被有心人做操控那如果說操控成功的話我們的經營權就會轉移到這些農會而且是特定的這些組織裡面去的時候那相對的對國家來講是一個災難因為部長我們沒看過太多民間的企業怎麼樣被禿鷹給襲擊然後導致失去了主導權然後導致那個"},{"start":9669.925,"end":9686.251,"text":"這個農業金庫是國家很重要的一個然後我希望這塊還是要部長要緊守住由國家主導這個方向因為國家一定是國家的利益農民的利益為最大那但是如果是各個農會或者地方派系那就不一定了他的思考點就不見得是如此"},{"start":9686.511,"end":9701.477,"text":"我覺得這個部分一定要嚴格的把關好不好 慶紅部長要嚴守住這樣一個底線那再來我請教一下日本最近缺米那台灣的米 銷往日本其實是一個很好的機會那今年的一到四月已經有五萬五千多 五千多 對"},{"start":9702.997,"end":9726.06,"text":"對那這樣看這樣比例有可能今年有機會突破到1.5萬噸有機會嗎我們的初步的預估至少可以到1萬噸至少到1萬噸應該是一個低標吧我就看1到4月都已經一半了對就是我們的低標是1萬噸那同時我們也在觀察現在日本有一些所謂的他們的類似我們公糧的廚米有釋出但是不影響我們的輸出因為我們是高價"},{"start":9729.062,"end":9751.058,"text":"1.5萬噸的這個還是要更積極一點的目標啦因為我覺得一方面是日本缺米正是我們機會打進日本是我們的好機會那另外一方面是日本跟台灣過去來長期來這樣的關係其實是而且我們的米的品質也越來越好那加上我們的米的量其實是足夠的那如果我們把我們的優質好的米能夠輸入到日本趁這一次機會坦白講一般如果他不缺米你也沒有機會打進去啦"},{"start":9751.578,"end":9766.501,"text":"缺米那這時候應該大力的打進去讓台灣的米能夠外銷到日本去那如果形成他們很認可台灣的米也習慣的時候對台灣的稻米也是一個很好的一個良心我跟委員報告齁我們不只是說他缺米才打進去我們希望說我們打進去以後是可以持續的"},{"start":9767.182,"end":9783.208,"text":"這一定要留下來這個留下來而且是我們現在跟很多日本大的通路商在合作那通路商走高端的品牌的時候就可以做市場區隔讓我們的稻米持續的外銷我希望是我們很多優質的稻米能夠打進去因為日本的稻米非常的好啦"},{"start":9783.448,"end":9807.09,"text":"大家很多人還在日本很喜歡吃日本的稻米但是我希望趁這個機會把台灣優質的稻米打進日本市場而且是長遠的但我講的只是說因為是缺米現在才有這個機會如果不缺米我們也不好打但是因為缺米的時候它需求量大的時候反倒我們應該趁這個時候把區隔做出來跟其他國家的區隔做出來然後打進去日本市場那這個對於台灣的稻米市場的會有很大的幫助啦對我們朝這個1.5萬噸來努力"},{"start":9808.191,"end":9823.384,"text":"我覺得一萬噸太低標了這幾乎不用隨什麼理應應該要設定高一點的目標才能夠去達成那一萬噸照現在的努力方向應該也都可以達成好不好謝謝那最後請教一個我們漁船的收購部分這個沒有問題吧"},{"start":9824.265,"end":9832.287,"text":"這個我想 基本上我們內部都已經處理了 現在在抱怨嘛在抱怨的部分 然後我們也會跟行政院做一個很好的溝通所以會延長到116年 82艘總經費達到28億18.49億28.4928.49億 對對對 28.49億 對所以會這樣子啦"},{"start":9846.03,"end":9851.939,"text":"朝這個方向來前進我們您抱怨然後我們會跟行政院做好那請再跟院長來爭取我也會跟院長來拜託啦這個對於整個產業的提升競爭是有幫助的對好謝謝好謝謝現在請邱志偉委員做詢答"},{"start":9874.014,"end":9879.657,"text":"謝謝主席 小寶寶上台我請農業部陳部長部長辛苦了第一個問題請教你就是說我們福島五縣市的食品包括農產品包括水產品都已經解禁 是去年解禁"},{"start":9899.608,"end":9925.745,"text":"那這個他們農漁產品特別是福島五縣市進口到台灣目前的狀況如何我們有沒有還有相關的管制現在是等於說符合我們的相關規定都可以但實際的數量我現在沒有 手邊沒有資訊我會後再提供給委員福島五縣市的部分對 已經解禁了就應該沒有任何的縣市讓他們福島五縣市代表說安全無與沒有問題"},{"start":9927.006,"end":9945.415,"text":"那過去中國是這個日本漁產品最大的出口國是那台灣在這個所謂五島五線式這個食品管制之前日本這個漁產品這個出口到台灣的狀況怎麼樣我這個是不是可以請那個副助長日本"},{"start":9947.045,"end":9964.742,"text":"沒有 包包委員這邊沒有把數字寄出沒關係 會後再提供給我那當然我們的漁產品也有日本需要這個比較喜歡的品項比如說石斑魚他們都接受度蠻高那我們可以這個雙向來做更多的這個漁業農業的合作"},{"start":9968.725,"end":9992.202,"text":"我最近去拜訪日本國會跟幾個日本國會議員討論我去主要是針對台灣的CPTPP要請日本多加支持因為今年澳洲當了日主席國這是一個非常最重要關鍵的時刻日本扮演非常重要的角色日本全力支持不然其他的國家"},{"start":9993.39,"end":10019.912,"text":"大概也不敢太多的發言對我們會有幫助啦對如果他全力支持有全力支持跟這個意識性支持完全不一樣那當然他們是全力支持但是他們還是有一些抱怨就是說當初無線式這個食品管制台灣跟日本那麼友好但是我們卻對他們這個無線式食品管制我說那是因為公投"},{"start":10020.993,"end":10043.133,"text":"因為有公投所以必須要有這個限制那我們也希望說基於相信科學所以我這部分先事後了解說從去年檢驗之後服務到我現在這個農漁產品輸入台灣目前的狀況怎麼樣我們會來統計然後再提供個委員有沒有可能加強採購呢有沒有可能加強採購我想我們現在"},{"start":10046.036,"end":10074.506,"text":"包括我們這幾年來其實我們就這樣石斑就好石斑其實有太多的日本通路商開始在洽群希望說能夠增加這個採購然後今年七月中旬大阪的這些食品展我想我們農業部也會組團再去針對重要的農產品做一個行銷雙邊是互惠的如果我們也跟他們多一點進口買一些然後他們也幫我們買一些他們對我們這個石斑他們也可以更多接受度"},{"start":10075.566,"end":10094.711,"text":"好今天討論這個主題很重要那三保一金當然是對農民最最重要的照顧那我覺得照顧還是不夠那如果按照這個郭國文委員的版本就是從1倍到1.5倍整體預算評估大概增加"},{"start":10099.784,"end":10113.649,"text":"15.5億你是用9萬人口還是用20萬人口因為你現在覆蓋率是49%嘛對不對你的覆蓋率49%那你這個他自己提撥是1%到10%對不對那你這個15.5億是怎麼計算出來的我們15.5億是依現在的人數去儲穀因為"},{"start":10121.811,"end":10145.461,"text":"當你提高的時候是已經在提腳的你現在的出鍋是用49%對不對大概9萬多人口嘛那你如果符合資格應該是20萬左右嘛對22萬左右那你增加這個政府的這個提撥當然會增加誘因嘛所以人數一定會增加嘛我覺得是這樣15.5億啊甚至你到20億"},{"start":10148.048,"end":10175.266,"text":"30億是對農民的照顧那你我覺得沒有必要再去跟其他的職業族群去做比較你用這個勞保跟這個農保我們農民領取老黃金貼加農退儲金的金額跟這個勞工領取勞保老年給付跟勞工退休金的金額我覺得比較基礎不一樣你這個農民領取老黃金貼加農退儲金大概多少人"},{"start":10178.047,"end":10200.172,"text":"農民 農保是現在現在農保是85.3萬人但是65歲以下的是31.7萬你有資格到最後領取可以領取 實際上喔他農保就完全合格的22.3萬人不是 你最後呢可以領到農退儲金的最多就20萬22.3萬人 對所以並不是所有農民都可以領到這個這個每個月3萬8這種金額對不對是"},{"start":10206.676,"end":10225.354,"text":"是少數 大概不到四分之一實際從容的部分那勞工大部分都會領到三萬三左右嘛 對不對所以你不能用這個帳目這個比較的基礎說你如果提高到這個1.5倍所以這個倍數一定要提高至於說底倍 1倍1.2"},{"start":10229.278,"end":10240.25,"text":"1.5 1.7兩倍我們都可以去討論那我覺得以你1.5倍作為基礎來看這個金額是增加不多那對農民的這個覆蓋率或者說他意願會增加"},{"start":10241.83,"end":10263.235,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 我要先說明一下就是我們並沒有反對這樣的委員的提案那我們會做這樣的分析就是說我們要去向行政院申請經費的時候這個分析會有誤導啦並不是所有農民都可以同時領到勞農基金或農退儲金嘛大概只佔四分之一左右但是大部分的勞工是可以領取他勞退基金跟勞農給付嘛我說的沒有錯吧"},{"start":10265.715,"end":10280.295,"text":"你說你這樣會有點誤導說如果增加到1.5倍那可能跟勞工的差距會變得更大我還是強調一下我們做這樣的分析就是說我們要先找到一些差異性未來當做"},{"start":10282.253,"end":10303.034,"text":"跟行政院在做爭取的時候的一個論述所以因為行政院考量我剛才的論述是可以提供你去跟行政院爭取而且這金額才15.5億金額是不多以重大建設來講你也承認說不多再多的照顧都是應該的因為農民是相對弱勢他們老年之後"},{"start":10304.499,"end":10321.047,"text":"這生活的這個保障很重要對 育後養長當然越多越好你說你覆蓋力還不到五成 對不對你1.5倍 基本上增加你所謂的15.5億但一定會提高覆蓋率嘛是好 不然你要40 到 比方說到這個到23萬滿額的話 全部都有覆蓋的話"},{"start":10326.229,"end":10354.62,"text":"真的能夠兩筆都可以領到也大概只有三分之一左右我跟委員報告我們除了委員的版本以外我們會去做好好的規劃然後再加上我剛才提到的就是說怎麼樣減輕農民負擔在同樣的金額之下農民提繳的可以少繳一點政府再多繳一點保障一樣然後另外一個更重要就是還沒有加入的我們想辦法有困難的地方我們怎麼樣讓他加入這整個方案我們會做一個包裹來跟行政院報告"},{"start":10355.814,"end":10377.883,"text":"另外我第三個問題請教老榮今天的調整老榮今天調整的依據跟頻率當然相對於其他職業別比方說軍工教育月退跟勞保年金等等我們目前是四年調整一次對不對在那前一年的CPI對不對"},{"start":10380.564,"end":10405.929,"text":"但是為什麼不能比照比較優惠的這個軍工教育月退你CPI增長率達正負5%的時候調整或至少每四年檢討一次這個問題是不是可以往這個方向去思考呢我跟委員報告我們農業部的版本已經提到農業行電院去了包括CPI現在每四年調整一次的時候如果這四年中你的CPI超過一定比例的時候也可以啟動調整這是我們的"},{"start":10407.569,"end":10430.3,"text":"那另外排富的部分我們也將所謂的所得的部分從50萬也適度的提高他的財產從500萬有沒有也適度的提高還有自住所得房屋的部分也提高這個部分我想我們委員都有非常多的建議調整太過消極太過保守這個照顧也不夠你看從101年到114年這15年間從7000塊到8110塊對不對是"},{"start":10435.803,"end":10450.497,"text":"但你這個整體最低生活費是暴增了幾倍 暴增了1.5倍你從台灣省來看 台灣省五都之外從1萬塊到1萬5 增加1.5倍那你從7000塊搭8000塊是增加幾倍 很有限"},{"start":10456.659,"end":10475.001,"text":"所以你要應該以這樣做比較在你的方案上面能夠更好提出更好的方式來照顧老農老農今天能夠有更多的對老農有更多的照顧這個八千塊我覺得這十年才剩下一千多塊"},{"start":10477.363,"end":10500.511,"text":"這個對農民是沒有辦法交代會 我想委內意見我們也會再把它做一些納入我們現在已經針對CPI的調整時間包括排富的部分我們已經做了一些建議了那至於說它的那個調整跟它的生活所得的比例也要盡量要一致化這個部分我想我們也可以把它納入另外住宿代表處有沒有農業組的編制我們有 已經成立了農業組"},{"start":10501.471,"end":10529.476,"text":"去跟國會做一些說明他們很在乎啊我只要說提到CPTPP說我們支持但是你們之前這個輔導我先是時評他們覺得有點難過他們有點難過畢竟已經過去了你要把整個原委說明清楚我想我們把這個部分重新整理以後再去跟日本的國會透過農業組去做一個說明對 去做一個說明好 謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":10530.575,"end":10545.531,"text":"好 謝謝現在請郭國文委員做詢答主席有請陳主委陳部長陳部長"},{"start":10552.534,"end":10579.294,"text":"部長好 剛剛那個邱志偉委員在提到說我們駐日的單位當中已經增加了農業族那主要是針對這個台灣跟日本之間漁業往來的部分他說人家石斑一讓我們過去那李當我們也讓他什麼什麼過來其實有一個考量就是我們之前目前一直在討論的就是那個河豚的問題就我知道應該略有進展那目前的進度怎麼樣有沒有可能今年開放"},{"start":10579.761,"end":10581.023,"text":"順利的話今年有沒有可能"},{"start":10599.684,"end":10628.291,"text":"這個部分要請教食藥署我們這邊沒有辦法幫食藥署做這你要關心一下啊我有這個部分喔我講過幾度啊河豚的部分其實我認為它只要是安全的就應該可以進來當然是安全那相對的就是說我們在雙邊在談的時候也希望說我們開了河豚以後也希望說它能夠更積極的有一些我們有在面對外銷的這個部分我們一定順便了解應該今年底是有機會啦是有力啦好不好我知道這個我了解"},{"start":10629.231,"end":10646.218,"text":"這樣也可以化解剛剛邱委員的疑慮那另外回到今天的主題我其實非常感謝我們經紀委會許許多多的同仁對這一個本席的提案的予以贊同那我提案的內容其實跟昭緯的內容是相似的那就內容的本身來說的話我必須提到"},{"start":10646.778,"end":10663.732,"text":"所以說提這個案子的原因是因為我們歷經了四年我們覆蓋率其實都是在30%以下來進行徘徊那就制度已經到了一個天花板一個瓶頸的情況底下我們應該思考如果把這個覆蓋率能夠打開所以本期的提案的用意是在這邊也因此希望說農民"},{"start":10665.333,"end":10692.087,"text":"在繳納這個以基本工資來計算的話繳納2859的時候呢相對政府提撥能不能提到1.5倍剛剛提到預算也是不過是增加15.5億而已嘛那這個強化這個安全跟韌性的部分這個是重要你看到覆蓋率的部分覆蓋率是總人口數的總投保人數的部分也不過是28.7另外一個數字從青龍的部分本來我們是照顧未來青龍希望從業人口增加"},{"start":10693.047,"end":10712.181,"text":"更低耶只有25%耶老實講我也是很訝異啦所以訝異的情況底下當然我們提出來的時候那個貴部有提出一些回應你說其實換算於勞保的時候到時候幾副金額是相差無幾從社會保險的角度來看是這樣子可是我要跟那個主委說明喔"},{"start":10713.001,"end":10732.68,"text":"就這個部分裡頭我們在這個投保年資的部分有將近9成都是在一個基本上都不可能用投保30年來計算的它可能中間在進來對中間進來或年齡其實根本不到嘛所以你用30的做一個計算跟比對其實就有它的問題點的存在"},{"start":10734.461,"end":10760.968,"text":"最高金額夯不啷噹也不過是一萬塊錢而已一萬塊錢而已一點然後你去看那個金額喔所有來投保有一個現象我只要投保了我就繳納10%有沒有都是最高的唯一對最高的對不對這個高達這個九成以上那也就是說經濟誘因是最關鍵的嘛經濟誘因最關鍵當中不外乎是兩種嘛一種就是我付出的比較少我拿到比較多嘛"},{"start":10762.128,"end":10774.196,"text":"這是最關鍵的啊所以說是不是制度上有可能朝向這種方向來進行本席的提案其實也不過是我繳納的金額跟政府提撥的金額的倍數比能夠增加"},{"start":10775.506,"end":10786.631,"text":"那這個方向有沒有可能部長我想第一個我絕對沒有否定說委員的提案不好我說委員的提案就是我用100塊農民繳100塊我們繳150我們提報150嘛對對這個最後整體的退休會比較多一點這是一個方案"},{"start":10792.634,"end":10814.429,"text":"那另外我們有想到就是如果同樣是一百的話他只要繳八十類似八十我們繳一百二那這樣的話也是減輕農民的負擔嘛這也是啊也許兩個案可以同時設計不一定說一定不是委員的版本就是我們的版本我所證部長你這種說法是有創意的啦其實基本上你只要把那個"},{"start":10816.41,"end":10832.262,"text":"那個這個繳納方跟提撥方的這個比例來做調整然後往多的方式上來做調整基本上我是覺得這一個覆蓋率的提升的可能性會就會增加是 所以我們會會去更精準的試算啦而且我們也安排了跟院長做報告那你大概什麼時候會送院"},{"start":10833.202,"end":10861.897,"text":"我想齁我們送院之前我們現在已經安排跟院長做專案報告對那就是你是說下禮拜嗎最近最近喔最近喔我私下的報告然後院會大概預計什麼時候會收然後跟他報告如果說出門上如果說院長同意這個方向的話我們就會把完整的方案報院報院大概什麼時候啊這個下個六月可不可以不是這個就是看院長聽取了以後的一個決定院長如果沒有意見應該六月就可以到行政院會了嗎報告了以後就會"},{"start":10863.237,"end":10877.204,"text":"各個單位然後下個會議就會送進來我希望六月啦好不好以六月為目標啦最後一個問題要問您的齁就是我之前一直關心台南的牛肉湯的問題齁它受到飼養成本增加喔你看到那個建五年的肉牛的飼養的場數從778場降為628場那飼養的這個數量從34000變成30000"},{"start":10885.428,"end":10909.131,"text":"變成三萬喔那這減少就是這主要原因當然是這一個關稅的問題吧紐西蘭部分還有未來美國如果牛乳開放的話同樣會遭到這種排擠那我們換算了一下呢現在的乳牛的這個飼養量有一部分的肉源是來自於乳牛淘汰乳牛四千淘汰四千兩百頭去年啊今年預計只剩下三千七啊"},{"start":10909.811,"end":10938.16,"text":"也就是說肉牛整體的部分減少然後淘汰跟著減少那未來可能還會再減少但是對肉的需求卻不斷的增加卻不斷的增加那以至於現在的這一個成本價已經逐漸攀升從150已經變成190畢竟200大關那這種庶民美食如果一旦變成一個鄉親美食的話那會影響到整個城市的發展跟那個遊客的來"},{"start":10939.64,"end":10969.04,"text":"萊克素啊部長我已經問了第三次了啦有沒有什麼好方法我跟委員做一個報告以現在的雖然說我們去年有一些淘汰寡產牛可是現在每一個月的進到屠宰場的數量是還算穩定啦還算穩定但是長久來看的話我們希望把乳牛的量控制在大概12萬頭左右然後整個的牛奶是控制在43萬噸左右在這個目標之下"},{"start":10969.961,"end":10976.075,"text":"禮物的部分可能降到某個程度不會再往下降所以我們希望說在這個部分然後增加國產"},{"start":10978.63,"end":10995.558,"text":"現在是現實上相關的數字都在降價格一直在攀升但是屠宰場每一天屠宰的量並沒有太多的變化所以這個部分我們也會跟消費地做溝通您把最近的調查報告給本席一份那你的趨勢發展也看一下"},{"start":11001.141,"end":11023.68,"text":"那個整個牛肉價格也不斷攀升 請你注意一下市場中端市場的價格已經往上攀升了啦從以前100變120 150都有了事實上我就在做一般的市場不用其實特意做民調 平常我們就生活在那個城市當中我們大家也很清楚啊價格是上升 但是投採量是穩定的部長 早時間下來吃牛肉湯啦我請你啦 你就知道了啦 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答"},{"start":11046.912,"end":11048.636,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長陳部長喂好"},{"start":11057.03,"end":11085.149,"text":"部長我想在討論這個農民退休儲金條例之前我想我們還是要review一下就是說其實從蔡英文總統她一直大力推動的各項保障農民的政策其實從我們就是三保一金我們的健康保險還有農業保險還有植栽保險還有農民退休儲金三保一金"},{"start":11085.889,"end":11103.701,"text":"这是我们从过去农委会然后到农业部曾级种族委一直到陈巨基部长我们在努力的所以我觉得今天如果我们常在说哇我们要来修正农民退休处境好像那民间都没在做事情错了"},{"start":11104.71,"end":11128.622,"text":"我們這個三保一經我們努力很久我覺得我們應該把這個前提跟大家說也因為有我們當時候的1比1的補助所以才有今天大家在討論覆蓋率的問題要1比1.5所以我認為說我們都要把前提講清楚否則農民會忘記"},{"start":11130.502,"end":11154.844,"text":"會忘記所以其實我們這一次覆蓋率我們在討論覆蓋率覆蓋率不足不到五成所以大家認為說這應該是這個對比補貼的問題如果有更多的誘因可以讓我們的政府補貼升到1.5倍民眾的誘因會更高我們農民的誘因會更高所以才有這樣的一個討論的依據"},{"start":11156.605,"end":11175.331,"text":"所以我認為說其實我們努力那麼久從三保一經過去根本不可能過去根本不可能啦我們的健康保險然後再來農業保險然後再植栽保險過去我們的農民看到勞工他有植栽我們農民在大陸會卡"},{"start":11184.014,"end":11205.81,"text":"然後送醫都沒有辦法有所謂的植栽可是現在可以了然後還有我們有一些農作物現在只要保險在我們的農損的部分有相對應這個過去也沒有然後還有我們農民的健康保險所以其實我們一直在說的"},{"start":11209.755,"end":11212.427,"text":"我們希望農民更好因為農民很辛苦看天吃飯"},{"start":11215.322,"end":11241.549,"text":"我都不希望說農民為了我們這個土地做這些事情但是永遠被遺忘的一群可是在蔡英文政府上任之後一直到現在賴清德總統我相信我們沒有忘記這個區塊我們也一直在做只是我們的速度好像跟不上他們的期待那這個就問題來了"},{"start":11244.434,"end":11253.966,"text":"我們要怎麼做才能讓他們能夠符合他們的需求好我們現在來談農民退休儲金"},{"start":11256.731,"end":11274.409,"text":"1對1跟1對1比51.5這樣的部分就是說我們的政府補貼是1.5還是1相對補貼這個我們到底增加多少錢現在是15.5億增加15.5億就增加15.5億那15.5億我們預計可以增加多少覆蓋率"},{"start":11279.363,"end":11291.93,"text":"沒有 我們15.5億是現在已經在提繳的因為現在已經在提繳的 我們要對等增加嘛對 好 那現在15.5億 那如果我們增加到1.5倍"},{"start":11293.632,"end":11308.236,"text":"那增加多少可能再增加8億左右增加8億那預計增加8億會有多少增加的覆蓋率我們應該這麼講從老保65歲以下而且是合格的人如果都保的話是22.3萬人"},{"start":11310.578,"end":11322.474,"text":"那現在是將近10萬9萬多9萬2千多人是15億嘛所以如果22萬都保的時候那增加的就是大概將近35億左右所以"},{"start":11324.588,"end":11347.651,"text":"你認為如果說全部都保進來是要增加35億是用我們1.5這樣的一個對等要增加35億那你認為我們提高了1.5有可能全部都進來嗎應該不會不會那預計可以增加多少我們在退休除菁我們有階段性目標我們希望說"},{"start":11349.335,"end":11362.588,"text":"這在117、118年能夠達到60%到65%那如果說現在1.5%如果說是成案的話我們希望預期是至少可以到70%到80%所以你們不反對嗎我們從來沒有反對說這樣的方式不好"},{"start":11371.126,"end":11397.464,"text":"對那現在有什麼爭議我們現在考慮的你們都不認為是不對的你們都不認為說這個部分不好而且是確實可以提高覆蓋率我想我們怎麼樣怎麼樣的提高政策的導入政策的誘因委員提的版本是1比1.5這是一個方式那我們也有另外想到一個方式就是總而不變之下我們的負擔多一點如果100 100都講100"},{"start":11399.565,"end":11408.894,"text":"然後以後他繳80我們繳120好那你提的政策增加多少預算那個大概6億6億跟8億會差很多嗎那哪一個效率會更多現在的15.5億大概差一半"},{"start":11415.06,"end":11442.794,"text":"那另外我們希望說不一定是二選一啦可能是可以合在一起部長好啦你們行政院農業部你們有方案那請問你們有提出嗎還在討論還在檢討我們已經跟院長室那邊約時間了我們會先跟院長做專案報告如果方向確定的時候我們就會立即提出我們的版本"},{"start":11443.354,"end":11468.508,"text":"那這個版本完了以後會經過包括因為這需要額外的經費嘛還要主計總署還要其他的單位去表示意見所以你們的版本大概是增加5億不是我們的版本有幾個一個就是委員的版本也許可以跟我們的版本做某個程度的融合啦那這個融合可能要經過行政院這邊初步的支持我們才能夠精算下去"},{"start":11469.522,"end":11491.682,"text":"所以你認為這是可以有調和版的對不對行政院有調和版那有一個調和版也可以增加我們的覆蓋率我們117年118年到達了60%到65%這樣的標準是不是調和版也是可以而且經費不用有那麼多的壓力是這樣嗎"},{"start":11492.603,"end":11521.224,"text":"是 因為以15.5億來講齁其實比起其他的重大建設 它的金額並不大啦齁 但是你講到重點了真的 部長你講到重點了今天 如果我們今天一億兩億在這邊論農民心在糖血啦是 他說齁 你一個大型建設 幾百億都在做啊啊你對我農民 你是一億兩億 讓我在那裡斤斤計較"},{"start":11523.523,"end":11528.068,"text":"這個其實是一個痛所以如果今天"},{"start":11529.827,"end":11550.594,"text":"我們站在執政的角度 我覺得我們就把它很清楚的講出來我們要到達117年 118年的60%到65%的覆蓋率我們要提出什麼樣的政策 大聲講出來不是真的問題是農民可以有信心嗎 農民有要加入我們這個農民退休儲金嗎我們有辦法達到讓他們安心嗎"},{"start":11556.351,"end":11575.205,"text":"是這個目標不是一億兩億三億四億這樣的問題而是要有一個完整的制度讓他們安心這才是最重要今天有很多是因為不安心否則為什麼農民退休除菁是比以前更好"},{"start":11576.363,"end":11592.876,"text":"以前沒有撥補啊以前沒有啊那是在蔡英文總統的時候我們提了這個農民退休儲金的制度有了撥補好那應該大家會一窩蜂想要進來可是為什麼還是覆蓋率沒有到達"},{"start":11594.555,"end":11608.749,"text":"過五成的部分 我們就要去想原因沒安心了所以當你要再提出版本 要做調和版你一定要有一個原則安心好 那現在這個版本什麼時候要提出"},{"start":11609.704,"end":11628.839,"text":"我想我們應該在順利的話應該在這個禮拜可以跟行政院做報告這個禮拜會跟行政院做報告然後報告以後如果說我們的想法是被支持的時候還是說需要調整我們可能也會立刻的去做調整然後再重新抱怨"},{"start":11630.04,"end":11653.208,"text":"所以我們的目標就是下個會期會送進來下個會期就是農民退休儲金制度的修正版我們也希望說連老農津貼的修正牌付的東西也一併送進來因為他不能單獨看這兩個要一起來看這個就是我要問你第二個問題今天這個牌付的部分"},{"start":11654.218,"end":11659.207,"text":"之前部長一直把他綁在八大福利津貼"},{"start":11660.98,"end":11676.192,"text":"這個是不是我綁 我們提出我們的版本是 那現在我要問你的是現在你說的我們要一併討論我們現在可以排除跟他們脫鉤嗎對 可以嗎以農業部來講我們希望脫鉤當然當然我們希望脫鉤嘛但是我現在問你有沒有辦法脫鉤沒有 那不是行政院要決定啊"},{"start":11685.066,"end":11702.862,"text":"因為不是我能決定我的希望說所以那你要你在這個禮拜跟行政院長談的時候你要一併談啊因為這兩個本來都是農民最重要的這是我們一向的立場就是說因為農民有他的特殊的產業所以我們希望說能夠適度的脫鉤啊但是"},{"start":11705.504,"end":11727.598,"text":"那你要一併談啊所以在這個老農今天你之前一直說你都支持你都支持可是因為他永遠把我們綁在八大社福津貼嘛好那既然現在要談我們農民退休儲金制度這本來就要一起談啊老農今天本來就要一起談啊在我們的排富的部分嘛那你要跟院長說這兩個要一起讓農民安心"},{"start":11732.701,"end":11759.186,"text":"這農民安心才能真正達到我們調和板的一個處理的機制好不好部長 你在這一次就是在整個排富條款一定要把那個整個拉高否則這個已經完全讓老農沒有辦法去認同我們政府說現在還有爸爸親親在在就有爸爸了 大家也把你排除掉是不是 部長好不好"},{"start":11760.861,"end":11786.402,"text":"可不可以啦我立場表達的非常清楚我們希望能夠就是這個禮拜嘛 你就說是我們我們壓力的嘛 我們逼你的嘛沒錯 那你要去跟院長報告啊你在這個禮拜的報告是兩個一起提出來報告並行因為這是我們老農非常重要的一個依據我們農民非常重要的依據所以兩個一起跟行政院長報告你說這是"},{"start":11787.583,"end":11806.465,"text":"我們的委員在經濟委員會要求的然後跟院長報告看怎麼處理我們一定要一次而且那個差太多了所以拜託有而且喔如果由你來做發動不一定因為我們腦農今天的解掉"},{"start":11807.486,"end":11832.247,"text":"排富的解掉 會帶動八大福利 其他的七大福利基金今天也解掉喔 這樣直接做工程耶你知不知道 部長這個禮拜喔 兩個一起報告結果怎麼樣 我們隨時要知道看到底是你們的問題 還是院長的問題嘛這樣我們就知道 要去找誰說啊要不然我們現在也不知道原因在哪裡"},{"start":11833.683,"end":11860.061,"text":"那我們每次提案就說 喔 還一下 要討論 要討論可是我們回去對農民來講 都沒辦法交代再拜託部長 這個禮拜就是我們的農民退休儲金制度我們的調和板 要怎麼讓我們的覆蓋率可以達到117年 118年我們的60%到65%然後我們的老農津貼 我們的排付條款一定要解掉"},{"start":11861.242,"end":11883.278,"text":"不能在這五百萬一定要解掉要以現在的比例 甚至每年都要做檢討我們的整個物調太快了嘛這個物調太快了 農民沒有辦法接受啦所以這個再拜託我們的部長 謝謝好 謝謝我們中午不休息 延長開會時間現在請張家俊委員做詢答"},{"start":11893.865,"end":11894.87,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請這個陳部長"},{"start":11905.207,"end":11931.794,"text":"我想要呼應一下這個陳廷飛委員我想有關於這個老農津貼的牌付條款是不分朝野大家都想要為老農爭取的因為現行的這些規範的確是對我們的老農非常的不公平我想要知道說部長您可以再明確的表達一下針對牌付條款這個部分要放寬要提高要鬆綁的部分您的態度是為何呢基本上在"},{"start":11933.515,"end":11957.194,"text":"上上個會期吧我們立法院有一個討論然後後續我們就提出一個農委會的那時候農委會的一個版本是那在那個版本裡面我們也支持這個排布條款做適度的放寬大概會放寬到什麼程度我想我們在還沒有經過行政院確認同意之前我們不適合說是放寬到多少"},{"start":11958.171,"end":11979.976,"text":"但是你覺得有可能會符合一般老農的期待嗎我不知道因為每個人的期待可能不一樣但是基本上很多委員所提到的要根據有一些它的物價指數跟那個調整我們大概也是參考這樣的一個調整的方式去設計的那大概多久可以把這個決定發出來呢我想"},{"start":11982.797,"end":12008.782,"text":"我們不會提出一個建議因為最主要是需要一些經費所以我們必須在行政院獲得行政院的支持嘛放寬 你的意思是說經費的部分一定要行政院支持但放寬不需要經費啊沒有你是說放寬之後會增加的部分的經費 了解那這個部分我想一定要得到行政院的支持所以我們一定那你們有試算過大概會增加多少嗎"},{"start":12009.912,"end":12029.48,"text":"我們現在大概30億左右大概30億左右那可以幫助非常多的老農所以要請部長要據理力爭為我們的農民發聲尤其為我們台灣付出了一輩子的老農我覺得非常需要部長"},{"start":12031.001,"end":12058.223,"text":"可以幫他們說幾句話那最近前陣子因為這個低溫的影響導致雲林縣包括可能雲林以南的這些荔枝 酪梨 結果率不佳那經縣府爭取這個天然災害救助之後農業部也已經公告了那這一點我必須要代表這個農民給農業部肯定就是說非常的迅速那但是接著"},{"start":12058.763,"end":12080.532,"text":"還有另外一個嚴峻的問題就是這個柑橘類的果樹到目前為止普遍也是結果率偏低不曉得那個部長知不知道這件事情我跟委員說明一下就是有時候這些多年生的果樹從開花到結果有沒有那有時候像荔枝您知道荔枝花開得很漂亮但是它結果率不好"},{"start":12081.272,"end":12098.969,"text":"同樣的我們觀察到結果必須確認的時候我們就確認了所以我們就很快的開了那柑橘類的時候他一樣他會先開花然後結果的時候那個生理的弱果是情況怎麼樣所以我們可能還要再觀察一段時間大概多久呢大概"},{"start":12100.289,"end":12118.756,"text":"6月底到7月中目前我收到的消息我直接問農業部他是跟我說6月中下旬我們希望是越快越好因為這些農民其實是非常焦躁不安的那也很擔心說他們一整年的努力就要付諸流水了那他們現在"},{"start":12119.156,"end":12138.589,"text":"非常的焦急 那希望說農業部我們趕快啟動這個四方會開 趕快去現場開然後解決他們現在焦急的部分讓他們可以得到這個應有的協助那這一點要請部長多多加油 敬訴不要等到七月 七月我覺得太久了這個要因為現在天堂的關係嘛"},{"start":12139.95,"end":12158.848,"text":"我們一定立即第一時間就去看這一點一定要請部長要求一下他們要盡速的不要說等等等等到農民都已經沒有希望了感覺無望了對不對那另外呢上個禮拜上個禮拜本席有向您追蹤這個季節性的這個"},{"start":12162.03,"end":12170.437,"text":"就是那個農業移工新制的問題那農業移工是有季節性的這個需求問題那如果申請之後還要向勞動部進行維持一個90天的審查可能早就錯過了"},{"start":12177.562,"end":12201.932,"text":"這個生長跟採收的季節那塗增這個農民的困擾那部長上個禮拜有答應說你會親自跟勞動部紅部長談然後把農業移工拉出來單獨審查不曉得談的這個結果如何我第一個部分我跟委員報告就是上次您問了以後的第二天吧我就院會我剛好勞動部長就坐在我旁邊我就親自跟他講"},{"start":12203.092,"end":12228.212,"text":"然後他第一個部分在規定上面來講他們是七天加七天再加一個審查期所以他們會從更簡化的方式然後同樣的農業部有責任農業部在第一線審查的時候以現在來講我們農糧署在處理的話大概是三個禮拜到四個禮拜甚至於再加上前面的作業的話可能要到一個月去了"},{"start":12228.812,"end":12238.272,"text":"那我也希望說我們農業部本身在出核的時候也要簡化那個流程那勞動部在審查的時候也簡化的話那這樣的話時間就可以有機會去壓縮"},{"start":12240.57,"end":12258.526,"text":"對 這個就是本席要講的 因為本席也問了這個勞動部喔勞動部的意思就是說 欸 他們好像只要幾天 好像是15天以內7天加7天嘛對 7天 就是說15天以內就可以那如果假設90天 扣除掉他的15天這等於是農業部一個部會要審查60幾天欸"},{"start":12262.669,"end":12277.274,"text":"我也曾經查過我們農業部現在平均的審查大概是一個月到一個半月四個禮拜到六個禮拜但是勞動部那邊的7加7他也不會那麼快因為他還有他們有去算他的行政流程還有最後的會議的審查那個時間"},{"start":12278.294,"end":12300.105,"text":"所以就是希望說農業部的部分除了說已經部長已經很迅速的跟勞動部溝通了那我們農業部是不是內部也自我要求一下說我們剛才說的我們內部也會加快 要趕快簡化這個流程勞動部有一部分他們提供的資訊我們還要再check一下理論上是7加7天但是還有一些行程還有審查的流程"},{"start":12302.147,"end":12327.144,"text":"對 所以我也希望說如果說有什麼需要調整的部分儘速的趕快去解決趕快去解決讓它簡化我們跟勞動部大概溝通無礙我想我們會一起努力好 OK 謝謝這一點也請部長繼續幫我們農民追蹤因為這個很多就是需要移工的這些農民大家都非常的關心尤其因為可以從1.2萬的這個移工增加到2萬其實對於整個整體臺灣農業我想也是幫助非常的大"},{"start":12331.027,"end":12352.412,"text":"那接下來我本席也想要請問一下有關於那個進口豬肉含瘦肉精的事情前陣子連續3批的豬肉都驗出有萊特多巴胺那針對這樣子的食安警訊食藥署卻表示說不會再提高這個抽樣的比率也拒絕公佈流向那導致有很多國內的豬農他也很憤慨"},{"start":12354.713,"end":12358.756,"text":"無法理解說為什麼政府會這麼的雙標面對進口的豬肉可以這麼寬容這麼低調那對於國內的養豬產業只要一有違規就會立即加強查核然後嚴格開罰這不但讓豬農覺得是雙標到極點也覺得被犧牲被忽視甚至我們一般的這個消費者也覺得很無奈啊怎麼會這樣子的話"},{"start":12380.509,"end":12400.346,"text":"如果假設流入校園怎麼辦呢那他們如果不小心買到怎麼辦呢所以我也很希望說部長可以去理解我們豬農的一個心聲那因為農業部也一直強調說要守護台灣的農業那是不是部長也要跟這個食藥署這邊包括衛福部這邊來表達一下你的立場呢"},{"start":12401.409,"end":12425.447,"text":"基本上農業部的立場就是要確保我們國內的豬產業能夠持續發展這是一個非常重要的至於說進口的豬肉是由衛護部主管我在這邊也要做一個說明其實衛護部在邊境把關的部分農業部是防疫的部分他們是檢疫的部分能夠讓他進來一定是合於國家的標準沒有說他不合於國家的標準"},{"start":12426.548,"end":12447.774,"text":"有一些誤解我覺得必須要澄清但是以農業部來講我們一定讓我們國內的豬肉更有品牌更有市場區隔是 那本席想要請教您知道現在食藥署針對豬肉抽樣的比例是多少嗎這邊有講到差不多要看它的不同的國家啦差不多二至十排啦那您覺得這樣足夠嗎"},{"start":12450.851,"end":12468.14,"text":"我所了解就以防疫的角度啦因為他們查驗的我不是很清楚那海關的部分當初要讓這個萊豬進口的時候當初農委會那時候農委會也有說他說一定是逐批抽樣那到底是什麼原因降到連10%都不到的標準本來是說每一批都要抽"},{"start":12471.842,"end":12495.574,"text":"我覺得查驗的部分不應該是農業部來發言我知道但是當初是你們的立場你們跟我們的鄉親講講說一定會要求他們都要逐批查驗怎麼現在降到這樣子農業部一句話也不說我想抽驗的比例跟他的風險是有關聯的以防疫的角度如果說我想要知道這個農業部的態度您認為應不應該恢復逐批檢驗"},{"start":12500.556,"end":12516.393,"text":"我認為就是所有的貨品的防疫檢驗的部分會根據它的風險它如果曾經發生不違規的時候它的查驗的抽檢的比例就會提高本席跟部長提供一個最新的民調數據"},{"start":12517.674,"end":12520.055,"text":"消基會針對進口萊豬做了一份民調調查結果高達90%的消費者在意是否買到這個瘦肉精的這個產品64%的民眾表示說支持肉品應該逐批檢驗"},{"start":12535.12,"end":12545.729,"text":"有高達76%的民眾表示不同意販售含萊特波巴胺的肉品部長這就是民意啊多數人的確是擔心吃到萊豬也不想要買到萊豬而且希望恢復這個竹皮檢驗也希望說農業部可以幫他們把這個聲音發出來那另外我想要知道的是說是不是"},{"start":12560.1,"end":12577.237,"text":"也要強烈的要求保護我們台灣優質的豬肉這當然是我們大家不喜歡來豬肯定就是我們國產豬肉的機會我們這個國產豬肉的標示也一定要清楚一定要把這個品牌做出來讓我們國產豬肉更受這個消費者的喜愛"},{"start":12580.9,"end":12600.516,"text":"第一個就是國產的部分沒問題我們一定會去加強國產豬的標示還有一些品牌區隔但是您剛才講的我覺得邊境的查驗要回到科學的根據還有國際的標準當初是中央政府出來講的講說我要逐批檢查怎麼會出爾反爾呢這些超研是用科學根據而不能用這種民意來處理你現在說科學根據"},{"start":12603.138,"end":12611.562,"text":"那就逐批檢查才有科學根據逐批檢查出來的數據可以說服大家你現在是在幫他們進口商說話嗎你現在是在幫萊特多巴胺的豬肉說話嗎你不要汙衊喔我的意思是說科學根據是什麼你告訴我是什麼什麼是科學根據所有的邊境的查驗的比例是根據那個農產品的風險根據什麼風險你現在是在幫"},{"start":12632.054,"end":12636.219,"text":"進口的萊特多巴胺豬肉酸辣嗎我覺得這樣講就是污衊我沒有針對萊特多巴胺我是針對防疫的部分好好再跟你說你支不支持應該要逐批檢查"},{"start":12646.832,"end":12659.162,"text":"我還是說要回到所有的抽驗要回到科學的根據跟實際的部分什麼科學根據你告訴我所有的當你的產品當你的產品如果說經常違規你如果還有逐皮檢查的話你那個科學根據的數據哪裡來的呀科學有所謂的抽樣的根據那為什麼中央要出爾反爾當初不管是衛福部農業部都說我們一定會逐皮檢查絕對不會讓萊特多巴胺抽標的豬肉進口結果"},{"start":12674.795,"end":12681.018,"text":"上禮拜 上個月就來個3%基本上部長我告訴你豬農 豬農對對我知道我也會去問他們我現在是問你的態度你支不支持豬農對你抱持很高的期待他們期待的是一個能為他們發聲替他們爭取公平競爭條件的農業部長我想"},{"start":12696.005,"end":12698.127,"text":"除了剛剛提到的這個恢復竹皮檢查之外把這個標示清楚然後要怎麼樣支持國產豬的具體的措施部長你要能夠幫助他們而不是在這裡辯護欸沒有我告訴你國內的豬肉我們如果說消費者對國內的豬肉有信心的話"},{"start":12715.021,"end":12718.705,"text":"任何進口豬肉我們不用擔心所以我們的重點農業部的重點就是讓我們的國產豬是你要好好把國產豬照顧好之外我覺得我剛才也是只是問你而已問你說支不支持逐匹檢查難道是你可以決定說要不要逐匹檢查的嗎我只是在問你說"},{"start":12732.517,"end":12757.705,"text":"你知不支持而已嘛那你就說你支持就好了嘛跟支持不支持沒有關係是跟科學的根據跟國際的規範那你科學根據哪裡來嘛哪裡來你的科學根據你告訴我如果你可以說服我我不是不能被說服的呀所有的邊境的查驗各國都有他的相關的遊戲規則那為什麼我們一開始中央政府要說他要逐批檢查他要百分之百檢查那是不是在欺騙我們的鄉親欺騙我們的消費者是嗎"},{"start":12760.746,"end":12763.827,"text":"我相信至少不是我嘴巴講出來的 我不知道但是之前的部長啊 之前的兩個部長都說呀恢復部部長 然後農業部部長農業委會主委就說一定會百分之百檢查那時候的行政院長蘇貞昌"},{"start":12780.655,"end":12782.898,"text":"他也說要百分之百檢查逐批檢查那為什麼會出爾反爾呢為什麼你要幫他們辯護呢我本來只是要要求你照顧我們本土的豬農確定他們的品牌 優化他們的品牌"},{"start":12799.629,"end":12814.496,"text":"你為什麼要幫他們辯護呢我剛剛講的我純粹針對防疫的角度我不是查驗喔防疫的角度要根據風險根據科學根據喔那至於說邊境從一百那你好好的就把這個講清楚嘛為什麼要幫他們辯護你不要說我是擁護那個萊豬或怎麼樣的我覺得你這個就是掛帽子"},{"start":12819.218,"end":12823.601,"text":"我沒有要幫你掛帽子是你剛剛自己講的我問你說你是不是在幫他們辯護然後你跟我說什麼什麼科學根據我說科學根據在哪裡嘛我有沒有要求說你要照顧本土豬農有沒有我會承諾說我們一定是農業部的立場是嘛你就好好講你會支持本土豬農就好你再跟我"},{"start":12841.875,"end":12845.997,"text":"狗細沙講說什麼什麼什麼什麼要科學根據我跟你說如果你不是自己講出這個空間我要怎麼掛你帽子我要怎麼掛你帽子你自己剛才沒有幫他辯護嗎"},{"start":12857.682,"end":12859.043,"text":"這不叫辯護這是從事實上那我問你願不願意幫他們說應該要恢復逐批檢查願不願意願不願意幫出農呼籲幫我們消費者呼籲衛福部說應該要"},{"start":12872.68,"end":12880.362,"text":"恢復足皮檢查為什麼之前的部長可以講為什麼之前的院長可以講你現在不願意講你如果不願意講的話那就有幫他們辯護的嫌疑這樣子我是不是你就有幫他辯護的嫌疑這樣可以嗎我沒有扣你帽子我只是懷疑這樣可以嗎你的專業是什麼"},{"start":12896.266,"end":12901.772,"text":"我的專業就是說你所有的檢驗一定要有科學根據那你的科學根據是什麼你沒有主體檢查你的風險哪裡來你怎麼算出那個風險的所有的東西都有取樣的標準我當然知道但是你要體會"},{"start":12911.964,"end":12921.272,"text":"體會豬農的心情 他們就覺得雙標你對他們檢查那麼苛刻你講這一句話我可以接受但是你在那邊跟我胡亂說什麼因為它2至10%是因為它有什麼科學標準我不接受 我不接受2至10%是你講的"},{"start":12930.501,"end":12956.274,"text":"我不接受 我是問你說現在只有2至10%你能不能接受然後我問你說是不是要能夠逐臂檢查你說吧啦吧啦吧啦對 我說根據科學依據嘛我沒有吧啦吧啦吧啦我是根據科學依據那科學依據是什麼你說服我啊科學依據是風險啊 風險的高低啊風險是什麼 多大風險你知道嗎你就不知道你要說服我我怎麼知道我不知道那你說我告訴你 所有的東西都有它的風險你說嘛 那具體是什麼你告訴我具體內容嘛我講一個很簡單的"},{"start":12960.416,"end":12978.689,"text":"一個農產品如果進口我現在跟你說萊豬你就用萊豬的跟我說我告訴你萊豬到目前為止沒有一個驗出是超標的嘛他有含萊豬但是他是符合國內的標準嘛符合國內的標準啊所以你也支持他說不用公開流向"},{"start":12979.898,"end":12984.241,"text":"所以你也支持嗎你也支持嗎我現在就在問你嘛我問你農業部的立場嘛對啊你農業部的立場是什麼你沒有個人的想法嗎反正我現在就告訴你我現在就告訴你"},{"start":12996.889,"end":12999.69,"text":"我希望我們國家是一體的不希望農業部跟衛福部兩個就是雙重標準我希望說您能夠落實照顧豬農優化我們台灣國內的產品這一點你可以做到嗎好那這一點就麻煩那個部長要能夠落實這樣可以嗎"},{"start":13017.458,"end":13038.731,"text":"那不要再幫什麼衛福部在那邊辯護了不需要你不需要幫他們解釋也不需要幫他們辯護他們我自己會問怎麼問我問你這個你會幫他們回答呢好嗎我回答是我們方議員你來你好好來關心他們豬農我相信豬農會非常感謝你這樣好不好我昨天才去做談的啊好不好加油謝謝好現在請蔡議員做詢答"},{"start":13059.145,"end":13062.228,"text":"謝謝詹委那我們是不是有請農業部部長陳部長委員好部長好"},{"start":13072.199,"end":13095.255,"text":"部長我想透過今天質詢來跟部長聊一下阿里山鐵路阿里山鐵路是農業部管不是交通部是我們的林保署的這個林鐵處主管這一個阿里山的鐵路那這個阿里山鐵路他也被紐約時報2025年推薦全球最值得去的52個地點"},{"start":13098.027,"end":13106.941,"text":"52個聖地之一那甚至 紐約時報說搭乘古老車廂進入昌裕的高山這個就是他們的一個介紹"},{"start":13108.018,"end":13133.491,"text":"那我們做這一條阿里山鐵路那現在林鐵處也很用心他還打造了新的車廂一個叫做福生號一個叫做喜悅號那當然他是委託給旅行社來管理所以他有獨特的一個管理方式那至少新的車廂跟傳統的一個車廂有這個新舊的一個感受所以你搭怎樣的車廂去阿里山"},{"start":13134.712,"end":13154.234,"text":"就會有不同的感受但是我要跟部長說因為我們在兩個禮拜前我們去阿里山我們也是坐福生號去做考察那我想跟部長說我有幾個感受第一個就是說我們在拼國際旅客的這件事情力道不足"},{"start":13154.975,"end":13177.814,"text":"那怎樣的力道不足呢?我想要跟部長分享一下在113年,也就是2024年,去年的時候來阿里山的遊客日本人佔了131萬人韓國人有100萬人那剩下有印度、馬來西亞,甚至是新加坡新加坡還蠻多的,有40萬人"},{"start":13179.107,"end":13208.079,"text":"那如果既然這樣的話明明有這麼多外國的旅客願意來到坐阿里山鐵路然後來阿里山旅遊的話但是我們看到那些告示牌目前有的就只有中文跟英文是就是有中文跟英文那你相對的喔你去日本你去看日本的旅遊景點我有給大家注意差不多都四種語言就是日文他們的日文中文英文韓文"},{"start":13209.178,"end":13225.485,"text":"你的四種語言所以基本上你光是那種告示的你語言的一個展現就可以讓這一些外國的旅客他們覺得親近覺得來這裡玩是很容易透過一些告示他就知道他要去哪裡玩所以我覺得這部分我們可以來加強"},{"start":13226.405,"end":13247.916,"text":"部長,我想非常謝謝委員的提醒,那其實阿里山我覺得是一個非常值得國人去的,也非常值得國外的旅客。那有關於語言上面來講,除了您剛才講的這些,不管在哲業或是在導覽的解說,可以有更多的語言方面,其實我已經跟林業百惠署特別提到,"},{"start":13248.436,"end":13268.999,"text":"有很多景點我們手機有沒有一照的時候可以跳出它的後面的整個背景說明那這樣的話又更能多元化部長你們的官方網站有有日文官方網站有很多景點的說明你看林保署他們這個做的這一本哇這個日文版的精裝版非常的漂亮然後裡面都是日文是"},{"start":13270.24,"end":13289.868,"text":"這本也做得很好我現在就是說進到原子裡面去遊覽的時候很多景點都說明有一些用QR code的方式能夠用手機掃描帶出不同國家語言的版本這樣的話讓旅客更能夠了解這個是一個方式啦但是我覺得幾個基本語言我們一定會把它放進去我是覺得直接做印裔的告示是更好"},{"start":13290.588,"end":13308.446,"text":"剛剛說你把日文放上去我覺得重要的那些多過語言的告示我想我們會再來做那你可以再透過APP然後讓其他的可能是旅客相對比較少可是他們的語言也是需要所以我覺得這個都是說你要怎麼把它做到更親近讓大家更適合來旅遊"},{"start":13309.987,"end":13325.317,"text":"那我在考察的時候我有找文化部來事實上文化部每一年他針對阿里山森林鐵路要進去聯合國的世界文化資產他們編了兩千萬那我跟部長說雖然這裡沒有辦法把文化路叫來問但是我跟部長說這個兩千萬沒差錢"},{"start":13332.154,"end":13354.059,"text":"因為我們都知道台灣不是聯合國的會員國那你要併入世界文化資產的話就要在聯合國的這個文化的一個委員會要提案但是連提案的資格都沒有所以我要跟部長說在於阿里山鐵路要爭取世界文化遺產我們擁有最好的機會是怎樣就是因為這一個森林鐵路是日本人蓋的"},{"start":13355.919,"end":13373.659,"text":"日本人蓋這個森林潛入當年是為了運送木材現在我們把它轉型它變成一個觀光一個重要的觀光的火車我們應該跟日本合作由日本主動來申請世界文化遺產向聯合國申請跨國世界文化遺產"},{"start":13374.4,"end":13399.016,"text":"那為什麼會有所謂的跨國呢我們知道阿里山鐵路過去把阿里山這裡的Hinoki載去日本所以包括日本明治神宮的大鳥居也是阿里山的Hinoki包括日本的法隆寺裡面的建築物也是阿里山的Hinoki還有包括在沖繩日本的這個首里城也是用阿里山的Hinoki"},{"start":13405.101,"end":13421.395,"text":"幾乎都是過去這一條鐵路嘛 它再到了日本所以你透過這樣整個檜木的一個文化的一個延伸跟這個鐵路現在這個鐵路比現在世界文化遺產在印度它的大吉嶺的高山鐵路它的高山鐵路兩千"},{"start":13423.837,"end":13445.215,"text":"2100公尺 我們阿里山高山鐵路是從海平面40公尺直接攀升到2200多公尺 比它還要高所以我們更有資格變成世界文化遺產 但是我們卻卡在這個國際因素所以我們應該要跟日本合作 為日本來興慶讓我們可以擴寬聯合國 然後讓阿里山鐵路變成世界文化遺產"},{"start":13447.041,"end":13462.278,"text":"我想謝謝委員這樣的一個建議我們會去評估它的可行性不過我要跟委員報告的就是在沒有加入世界遺產這是一件事情其實我們跟日本跟瑞士、印度、英國還有一些斯洛伐克等幾個國家都有建立那個協定"},{"start":13464.7,"end":13482.692,"text":"我覺得透過這個方式 其實也讓更多人了解到台灣的阿里山高鐵我們跟日本的黑山鐵路嘛 跟瑞士的高山鐵路都有 都是這叫姐妹鐵路這個都是我們努力的方向所以我現在要說的就是說 第一個整個阿里山旅遊 透過阿里山鐵路的旅遊它的告示應該要走國際化第二個 我們應該要嘗試的把它的"},{"start":13487.495,"end":13498.384,"text":"阿里山鐵路背後代表的歷史意涵跟文化意涵這要大家更加的琢磨我們才有辦法來擴寬世界文化遺產好 這我們來努力好 然後來下一個問題一樣來講這個豬的問題啦豬的問題我覺得剛剛張委員質詢 雖然他人不在這邊但是我覺得"},{"start":13507.771,"end":13525.663,"text":"他這樣質詢對部長比較不公平因為主要整個食安也好 整個檢疫的過程他就是一個用科學統計的一個計算嘛科學統計的計算就不會輸到我們的頭髮部長我們的頭髮檢查我們有可能把我們的頭髮抽掉嗎抽到一滴都沒有就抽掉了全部檢查不可能嘛所以抽樣檢查就是一個科學的依據啊所以部長你的回答是沒有問題"},{"start":13538.812,"end":13544.936,"text":"但是部長我要跟你說,現在DMA介紹說獎金要一百塊看似對豬農收益好,但是未必是這樣,因為最近不知道為什麼"},{"start":13555.402,"end":13579.269,"text":"那個Deeper,Deeper就是那個小豬仔小豬仔,他的死亡率有比較高價格很高,這個小豬仔價格很高咧最近整個Deeper新聞館,他們的抵控率感覺比較不夠所以死亡率又變高所以對豬農而言說,他這個97塊看起來有利潤的全部給他的Deeper吃牙"},{"start":13580.349,"end":13588.092,"text":"阿所以部長你有沒有注意到這一塊那要怎麼樣去協助豬農說本來應該端午節這肉粽子要賣多少價格應該要賺錢的時候我這棵樹沒賺到因為這棵的價格太高我跟委員 委員報告齁現在的地價我們是根據市場機制我們沒有特別去押它"},{"start":13599.577,"end":13622.015,"text":"那其中一個非常重要的有人說以前豬肉才70幾塊我說我們現在養豬的成本是越來越高包括飼料包括您剛才講的這些豬仔本身也價格越來越高像昨天我也到豬場去了解現在有一些有關的下痢的疾病那這個部分我也請專家團在了解現在好像"},{"start":13622.856,"end":13633.763,"text":"那個死亡的比例有一點異常啦所以我們希望說這兩件事就綁在一起嘛死亡的比例有一點異常所以變成牠的地盤的成本高豬籠牠要取得這個小豬仔牠的成本就提高就吃掉了牠最後銷售的成本所以我說這個東西我們也要讓消費者知道其實我們基本上是一個很好的豬的台灣豬肉一個很好的豬的品質"},{"start":13651.215,"end":13671.086,"text":"那相對的在這個節慶的過程中這個價錢是一個合理的價錢不是說偏高啦這個部分我想我們也會做加強的一個說明好 那部長我再問最後一題所以5月19號的時候你跟我有說我們行政院接下來會討論嘉義的查改廠的一個進度那我想要請教部長說那討論的結論是怎樣呢"},{"start":13673.928,"end":13698.874,"text":"現在一個問題就是梅山蝦經過探勘它的地質不穩定所以變成說那個腸子又可能會產生一些變化地質的不穩定是怎樣很不穩定以做探勘醫療可能會滑動啦所以是不夠水保不是水保就是本身地質的特性就容易滑動啦"},{"start":13699.654,"end":13726.322,"text":"所以會變成有一些你如果在這邊做廠的話會有一些困擾所以我也在請我們的查開廠這邊在做怎麼樣的規劃哇 部長剛剛講這個問題就很大這個就是我那天您問了以後我請他們來然後他們也把最近的這些勘查的報告跟我講那我覺得我們不能說地質不穩定然後硬去蓋一個東西所以看看說有沒有辦法在...喔 伯父你這樣站起來我抓"},{"start":13728.583,"end":13755.083,"text":"會緊張會煩惱我看我們要找一天來再跟您報告喊我們縣政府這邊大家要討論一下因為現在整個嘉義的茶葉啦包括說我們現在甚至咖啡類我們目標不變啦但是現在就是說有沒有辦法先成立我們的試驗地先不要先看看用成株的或是什麼方式然後先把那個廠區先把它設起來看看可不可以用這樣的分階段來做可是看起來"},{"start":13757.125,"end":13771.234,"text":"現在有一點就要重頭 因為你說如果來一塊地質不一定是不是涉及 牽涉到又要找新的場子還是怎樣這個問題就會變成說又跑回頭所以我覺得這顆零 我覺得你要花一點時間我們一起再跟委員來說明一下還是我經紀委會我排考察的方式可能麻煩部長你就要來 我不然這個問題這樣起來會變沒概念我了解好不好 不然你再找一座來我教他 大家來討論一下 好不好"},{"start":13786.084,"end":13790.126,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 謝謝我們現在請寧靜縣委員做詢答好 感謝主席本席邀請我們農業部陳部長陳部長各位好 保長你好保長 我今天想跟你談到一個問題"},{"start":13815.385,"end":13837.907,"text":"大概到今年為止,2024年,我們的農業就業人口數大概將近五十萬,然後四十九萬四千幾個現在應該更加四十八萬貴賓那其中啊,大概佔我國總就業人數都差不多四八多啦但是我其中"},{"start":13839.232,"end":13864.429,"text":"政府很關心農民 照顧農民所以我們從2021年我們就制定農民退休金的除息條例但是我看實施以來我們最近的這個提繳人數逐月的降低啦我給你看這個曲線啊然後各位 倒立我們這個農民退休除金的提繳人數啊好像參與人數可能會越來越少啦"},{"start":13865.189,"end":13888.16,"text":"到底是怎麼回事呢?缺乏誘因呢?還是說我們是不是應該,政府可以努力安裝來提供農民晚餘來參與退休儲金提交的意願?因為我們目的是要補充農民的生活嘛,以及最重要就是吸引年輕人投入啦我們現在的親農人數大概有多少?"},{"start":13891.249,"end":13913.326,"text":"我們福島有關的都是7萬人左右7萬人左右我另外一個數字給部長當參考就是說很多人他要到農藥陣營其實有可能是勞工有可能在別的職場工作所以目前有參與勞保的農民大概有4萬3900多人就是說這些人是勞保但是他現在從事的是"},{"start":13918.038,"end":13924.887,"text":"農業過去參與其他的職業有了保全心很多人就因為他捨不得勞保所以就沒有來參加我們的"},{"start":13933.162,"end":13955.279,"text":"農民退休儲蓄啦 你知道這個總共嗎?我了解 我真的很感謝喔 就是委員提出這個觀察啦這個觀察真的非常重要 就是說我們現在有很多青農喔 大家有一半是假期從事勞工的但是因為勞工做了一段時間不做了從事農業 但是又捨不得放棄"},{"start":13956.721,"end":13972.601,"text":"這個保溫完全沒有保障,我們現在農業處境完全不能加保啦,不能加保所以我以為這樣說的話,這個部分我們要能夠解決了以後,才能夠讓這個覆蓋率能夠拉高對,因為你現在這個農民健康保險條例第五條你就知道了"},{"start":13974.4,"end":13981.084,"text":"第三條就是參與農民的退休儲蓄必須要有農報這條就白紙在這裡 農報就不行了更何況你第五條也寫到了 你要參與農民儲蓄保險"},{"start":13995.956,"end":14010.288,"text":"必須為領取相關的社會保險來領取付啦他這兩條白紙的齁所以這過去啊總是農業進行在白的政府的在白的行業的他是臣服勞保的他就不敢放棄啊你這樣他也不行啦他一定要放棄才可以來參加農民退休出去嘛所以當然就槓給他的議員嘛不然你如果知道這個情形"},{"start":14021.818,"end":14047.007,"text":"那我是覺得農業部應該要想辦法來處理對 謝謝委員關心那這個部分第一個就是要去修法我們也同意委員的這個看法就是說我們青農的主力有一半是曾經是保勞保的部分然後我們可以設計他勞保繼續保因為他是用自營工作者但是他可以加入農民退休儲金"},{"start":14047.927,"end":14064.659,"text":"那這樣的話他以後的保障會更多的時候他就有意願來繼續從事農業啦那這個部分如果委員支持我想我們會盡快的去在版本裡面去提出來配套因為你如果不修法你就抵觸了政府要發展輕農"},{"start":14066.501,"end":14071.986,"text":"對 輕點返鄉從事農業的這樣的一個政策方向你這個如果不讓這個勞保跟農民退休儲蓄來脫鉤的話你不脫鉤的話 這個問題就會存在所以我們這個我們會來處理"},{"start":14083.075,"end":14103.634,"text":"從博德醫界處理喔 你家這個人數啊 我掌握的人數啊目前有勞保 但是他從事農業的應該有將近4萬4千 4萬幾人欸 對喔 好不好 這個博文加我們請 部長如果有支持 那我們農業部應該盡速來修改相關的規範我跟委員報告喔 我們現在已經有安排跟行政院報告"},{"start":14104.955,"end":14119.16,"text":"農民稅有儲金的包括委員也有提案的這個1.5的部分還有一些我們的想法包括您剛才講的這個東西我們把它變成一個完整的方案來爭取行政院的支持這樣好好 抱歉先夠了謝謝主席好 謝謝現在請呂毅林委員做詢答"},{"start":14134.572,"end":14137.875,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長我剛延伸我們林委員剛剛講問的"},{"start":14153.379,"end":14175.332,"text":"有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保因為我們只能一個保公保、勞保跟我們的農保就只能選擇一個那有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎?現在也不行不行嗎?那你剛剛說你要研議你答應靈魂要研議我不懂你要怎麼研議啊我們這樣講喔"},{"start":14177.967,"end":14195.58,"text":"老保如果他還是有受僱於人的話是由他們的僱主去提領嘛那剛才我講的就是說有一些年輕人他可能二十幾歲到三十歲之間他是在公司服務沒有錯"},{"start":14196.26,"end":14224.754,"text":"他原來是有在公司服務他投了勞保但是他勞保之後他又轉做我們的親農你轉做親農之後的話你就不在公司工作了嗎還是同時有在公司工作職業公會那就是要選擇性只能一個保嗎只能一個保嗎可以雙重保險嗎不可以對不對他一個保但是他可以加入農民職業資金他又投勞保來加入農民的退休儲金可以這樣子"},{"start":14225.954,"end":14245.006,"text":"可以修法就可以了修法對那因為我們知道說我們有公保跟勞保的部分的話可以分開計算合併給付但是你要選擇性的你第一個階段的話如果是你是勞保後來你轉做公務人員的時候你就是沒有勞保了要改成公保"},{"start":14245.606,"end":14264.447,"text":"被停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個但是你的年資可以繼續計算是這樣子才分開計算合併來給付但是你現在把勞保可以繼續保勞保那你又可以來申請農民的退休雛金我跟委員報告齁這樣子雙保啦不會"},{"start":14265.288,"end":14274.855,"text":"老保退休金老保年金他不能領老保退休金他如果來加入我們農業退出儲金的話就不能老保退休金"},{"start":14280.179,"end":14307.885,"text":"他可以保勞保不能領勞保退休金他可以來領農民的退休儲金法要修得清楚我也請部長到時候要講清楚不同的保險可以這樣子那當時我們是一個階段的勞保完畢下個階段是公保才可以分開計算合併給付你現在是同時有勞保又同時有農民退休這個儲金勞保對應的是農保啦他現在勞保就不能來保農保"},{"start":14309.105,"end":14336.2,"text":"但是他在農保的時候他沒有雇主嘛而且他是實際從事農業你的意思是他繼續保勞保然後繼續又可以這邊申請農民的退休儲金所以是兩個不同的保險他一定要從事農業勞保對應的是農保然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金那他勞保可以繼續保嗎勞保繼續保啊農民退休儲金繼續儲嗎我們可以開放他可以加入"},{"start":14337.23,"end":14365.655,"text":"因為他實際從事農業這裡 這裡輕容一半喔 幾乎一半喔所以他可以做兩個工作投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作他是一個職業的工會去投保嘛職業工會 你在工會上你有等於說不管是你是個人的工作還是工作室 還是自由業反正你有投勞保的人 我跟委員說明一下喔像漁會 漁業的 從事漁業的有很多是勞保的喔很多是從事勞保 就是甲類會員的部分嘛"},{"start":14366.335,"end":14393.427,"text":"同樣的修法講清楚因為本席今天不是問這問題只是這個延伸樓會有很多的爭議的地方會有雙保不是兩保並行會有衝突的地方所以一定要注意一定要注意今天我們主席特別安排了這個我們農民的退休儲金的部分就是因為你們的"},{"start":14394.688,"end":14400.932,"text":"你們的執行率不好但是早上聽到委員聽到部長你特別有講到你有報告所以是母數的計算不一樣因為我們得到你們農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的這個達成率那但是你的說母數不一樣你們達成了已經49%了那不要在數字上變化我們講實質確確的來執行的工作才是重要的"},{"start":14423.168,"end":14426.769,"text":"那不管怎麼樣講未滿65歲他們的農保人數這在這邊是大概達成的還是28.7啦將近5年的時間了那部長講說大概他的原因就是意願的問題還有就是說他們的能力問題投不了這麼高如果說勞基法的話我們現在是28590他如果說是10%的話要2859元"},{"start":14451.178,"end":14478.435,"text":"那有些人攪不起嘛所以他就沒有來投入那最重要還有一個問題就是他們的那個腦農津貼啊現在可以領多少錢8114元他也許說認為我8100塊夠了但是部長你們利益良善你希望他能夠一萬兩萬領多一點嘛所以希望他們的農民的這個退休儲金但是退休儲金的部分的話我們看到你的沒有達成執行率不彰的情況之下可能就是我們"},{"start":14479.215,"end":14499.162,"text":"提出的誘因不夠那當然我們有提到啦誘因要提高的話是不是你們對等這個提撥的金額可以提高甚至說可以1.5倍那部長說還要再研議嘛那這個研議的話我看你要下個月你就要提出來行政院版本了那你研議目前討論下來是不是願意支持這個方案"},{"start":14499.522,"end":14528.436,"text":"不過我想基本上委員所提的版本是1比1.5是把總額提高就是農民出100我們政府出150從100變成150這是一個方案那我們也提到另外一個想法就是說總額不變100對100但是過去農民交100現在只要交80或70這個我們要討論就是說它的負擔減輕了保障不變那也有可能這兩個案子可以某個程度的融合融合的部分這是一個部分"},{"start":14529.349,"end":14535.475,"text":"不管你怎麼融合農民的權益不能損失我絕對不會請你盡快提出來啦我們希望實質的來幫助農民不要讓農民覺得很辛苦的話就不耕農了因為現在青年要返鄉去雇農的話這個情況也不是很好"},{"start":14547.867,"end":14575.479,"text":"所以我們在地方上才會成立這個青農把我們做代耕的工作不用再交給電農由青農來做青農組團來做不管是耕種或是收割青農都有專業的包括還有科技智慧的技術都有來協助我們這部分的話也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農像尤其農機具這個部分就要支持他們他們有用無人機來灑農藥或是用機械來收成這部分都非常的好"},{"start":14576.199,"end":14600.22,"text":"我們農機的農事服務業現在推的也還不錯包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農來申請農機的服務所以除了他自己耕作以外他還服務別人所以我們農耕可以改善他的辛苦可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙這點部分的話我們也希望部長能繼續支持他們可以加強在農機具方面好不好"},{"start":14601.161,"end":14626.274,"text":"好 接下來要請教的就是我們的移工的問題那現在我知道你們移工的人數有提高到2萬這2萬的話我們看看我們申請的制度上需不需要來檢討因為還很多人請不到這個農事的移工那尤其是說你們在這個小型的10人以下的跟我們的農企業的部分的話本勞跟外勞是1比1嘛對 本勞跟"},{"start":14627.094,"end":14637.541,"text":"移工是1比1 一個本勞就可以請一個移工那食人以上的小型農戶才會有35%但是現在還是缺很多移工"},{"start":14646.326,"end":14670.918,"text":"那部長你知道這個原因嗎我想第一個部分第一個部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項有的品項有開有的品項沒開那這個部分我們會滾動檢討第二個部分就是移工請來以後不是那麼單純白天做事晚上就讓他亂跑你如果自己自營的話你就要準備他的房子還要做一些管理吃住的地方對吃住的地方所以我們現在有請"},{"start":14671.838,"end":14695.402,"text":"那個農會去協助變成一個外展的部分那這個部分我們會加強還有一個就是移工那時候外展的部分只能在同一個縣市嘛有時候我們收割的時候是有跨縣市的從南到北所以我們在研議就是跨縣跨區跨區的部分所以很多問題就是我們遇到了我們就想辦法去解決讓農民來這個我想我們會持續來滾動檢討"},{"start":14698.223,"end":14720.862,"text":"OK 部長你剛剛提到了外展你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎外展的特性就是它的技術 你喜歡講技術 外展的技術是什麼沒有 它會根據你的用工的單位本身所需要的勞力的種植生產的技術所以會不一樣會用農漁會來做申請嘛用農漁會 為什麼用農漁會申請"},{"start":14726.018,"end":14745.423,"text":"沒有 合作社也可以啊合作社也可以那因為部長你剛才談到少了一個問題我們很多的農作是季節性的是所以如果你請這個移工的話我不需要12個月都在做事是好 也許做三個月 休三個月做三個月 休三個月有這種情形所以很多"},{"start":14748.504,"end":14765.733,"text":"小戶的那個農戶的話他們也許用電農幫忙耕作就可以了那現在電農工資上漲了2000塊以上他們有時候收成起來又比例上的話覺得收入不好也沒有辦法做就會影響到他們請電農的"},{"start":14767.714,"end":14780.069,"text":"意願所以就辦休耕就有休耕期發生那現在你有這兩個制度方面的話那因為原額的話你剛剛提了高到兩萬那這兩萬裡面的話但是你又不是實質的數量"},{"start":14781.96,"end":14801.235,"text":"又不是實質的數量 本席有查了一些資料齁看到你們那個 這個原額 我們第一個講到這個原額不夠還有你的制度 1對1的就是外展部分跟10人以下的部分 是1比1的方式那你如果說是10人以上的部分的話是35%但是這原額還是不夠 遠遠還是不夠因為有些的是屬於大戶的農戶嘛"},{"start":14807.199,"end":14836.782,"text":"他有些的外銷的他做多的有機蔬菜或者是他有什麼水果大量要出口的他農業的一些移工就還是不夠所以制度上你必須要去做調整喔那還有說你增加到兩萬人那本期查了一些資料喔這兩萬人裡面現有的這個移工喔一萬一千兩百零五人失聯的有兩千零一十九人輸出的有三百八十五人回國的回去他們國家的回國的有一千五百三十三人"},{"start":14837.422,"end":14849.958,"text":"為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內他已經四年轉出會回國啦我們現在要講限職部分我們要提高到兩萬人啊我跟委員報告喔您這個資訊就是勞動部都是用累計的啦用累計的部分像回國的就扣掉了啦"},{"start":14854.924,"end":14882.512,"text":"必須要扣掉 肥農一定會扣掉 轉出也會扣掉就是實際在從事農業的我們才會去算現在大概是一萬五千多人一萬五千多人我們核准是兩萬人 但是有申請然後正在申請的 現在在職的在職大概一萬五千多人所以後續跟委員講的這個部分包括移工的部分 季節性的部分所以為什麼我們要找農會因為農會可以服務更多的不同的農作物的產業所以"},{"start":14884.252,"end":14901.868,"text":"不是啊 我剛剛跟你講的制度面就是要討論到農會的部分農會如果他的員工50人他的隊長就可以申請50人但是你在這個區域裡面的話這50個人他還不夠用啊沒有 所以我要去想辦法去爭取他現在是1比3嘛想辦法變成1比2這樣的話他就可以聘的更多"},{"start":14903.186,"end":14920.025,"text":"有1比2不是1比1嗎沒有1比1是10人以下就是1比1那你比例怎麼調你1比2怎麼調的我們希望說更多他可以有本勞一個人可以顧兩個是所以這個還沒有公布實施沒有我們這個要去爭取"},{"start":14920.586,"end":14939.816,"text":"所以未來你會公布實施所以你也發現問題了所以你要做個調整對不對這樣的話他可以聘更多人那部長有發現這個問題的話趕快做調整來公布讓我們的農民可以繼續把我們的農作物做得更好好不好農民權益一定要捍衛的請委員支持啦好一定會支持你做調整出來盡快送來好不好好謝謝"},{"start":14943.078,"end":14967.781,"text":"现在请林楚英委员做询答林楚英委员不在林楚英委员不在现在请赖会员委员做询答赖会员委员赖会员委员不在现在请徐新颖委员做询答徐新颖委员徐新颖委员不在现在请苏星泉委员做询答苏星泉委员苏星泉委员不在现在请何兴纯委员做询答何兴纯委员何兴纯委员不在现在请罗明才委员做询答罗明才委员罗明才委员不在"},{"start":14968.522,"end":14987.27,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場外其餘經理發言完畢詢答結束書面質詢和為及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程詢答完畢謝謝大家散會另外折期再繼續審查"}]}},{"id":"16710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16710","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528edabd91bd523f6fd099e01fa654b13793a12e9ca99aa835c05f433f3681567dd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：\n(一)\t本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等2案。\n(二)\t行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等6案。【本院委員陳玉珍等16人提案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案」等4案。\n(二)\t本院委員林楚茵等17人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員郭國文等18人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員賴士葆等32人提案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n(三)\t本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-28T08:30:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:41:00+08:00","duration":15031,"影片長度":"04:10:31","委員發言時間":"08:30:29 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123"},{"start":1886.65,"end":1897.811,"text":"好 大家早安 請主任秘書報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數好 我們現在開始開會請議事人員先讀上一次會議的議事錄"},{"start":1899.844,"end":1924.715,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第十三次全體委員會議事錄時間創划民國一百一十四年五月二十一日星期三九十四分至十三十九分地點群雄和九樓大禮堂出席委員賴世保委員等十四人列席委員謝龍介委員等十一人列席官員今晚會主委彭金榮財政部部長莊翠芸莊行副總裁顏忠大及其所屬單位相關人員"},{"start":1925.655,"end":1944.596,"text":"行政院主席總書代表 主席賴召集委員釋保報告事項一 宣讀商事會議事部決定議事部確定二 邀請財政部金融監督管理委員會中央銀行就房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1948.815,"end":1966.961,"text":"三 處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案39案一 金管會新增決議凍結第二幕金融監理鄉下金融監督管理預算30萬元書面報告案二 金管會決議凍結第一幕一般行政預算70萬元書面報告案"},{"start":1969.222,"end":1988.653,"text":"第三案及第四案均為凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持之業務費預算十分之一書面報告案五凍結第二幕金融監理向下金融監督管理預算十分之一書面報告案六凍結第二幕向下金融監督管理預算二十分之一書面報告案七凍結第二幕向下金融監督管理"},{"start":1989.774,"end":2009.248,"text":"預算3% 書名報告案 第八案及第十案均為凍結第二幕向下 金融監督管理之業務費預算50萬元 書名報告案9 凍結金融監理向下 金融監督管理之業務費預算20分之1 書名報告案11 凍結第二幕向下 金融監督管理中設備及投資資訊軟體"},{"start":2011.389,"end":2026.052,"text":"軟硬體設備費預算四十萬元書面報告案十二金管會銀行局決議凍結第一幕一般行政預算五十萬元書面報告案十三凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持之業務費預算二十分之一書面報告案十四凍結第一幕預算"},{"start":2026.613,"end":2041.915,"text":"一百萬元書面報告案十五凍結第一幕預算十萬元書面報告案十六凍結第二幕銀行監理向下銀行監理預算五十萬元書面報告案十七凍結第二幕向下銀行監理預算百分之三書面報告案十八凍結第二幕向下銀行監理"},{"start":2044.596,"end":2072.569,"text":"業務費預算三十五萬元書面報告案十九 凍結第二幕鄉下銀行監理制業務費預算十分之一書面報告案二十 凍結第二幕鄉下銀行監理制業務費預算十萬元書面報告案二十一 金管會政局決議凍結第一幕一般行政預算七十萬元書面報告案二十二 凍結第一幕鄉下基本行政工作制業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案二十三 凍結第一幕預算七十萬元書面報告案二十四 凍結第一幕鄉下基本行政工作維持中業務費"},{"start":2073.929,"end":2088.464,"text":"證券期貨大額外強修繕工程預算八十萬元書面報告案二十五凍結第一幕預算六十萬元書面報告案二十六凍結第二幕證券期貨市場監理預算十分之一書面報告案二十七凍結第二幕向下證券期貨市場"},{"start":2089.205,"end":2109.928,"text":"預算3% 書面報告案 二十八 凍結第二幕向下 正願期貨市場之業務費預算十分之一 書面報告案 第二十九案及三十案均為凍結第二幕向下 正願期貨市場監理之業務費預算五十萬元 書面報告案 三十一 凍結第二幕向下 正願期貨市場監理之業務費預算三十萬元 書面報告案"},{"start":2111.28,"end":2138.337,"text":"三十二金管會保險局決議凍結第一幕一般行政預算五十萬元書面報告案三十三凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持之業務費預算六十萬元書面報告案三十四凍結第二幕保險監理向下保險監理預算百分之三書面報告案三十五凍結第二幕向下保險監理之業務費預算五十萬元書面報告案三十六金管會檢查局決議凍結第一幕一般行政預算五十萬元書面報告案三十七凍結第一幕"},{"start":2139.918,"end":2156.596,"text":"預算五十萬元書面報告案三十八凍結第二幕金融金融金融機構檢查向下金融機構檢查之業務費預算一百萬元書面報告案三十九凍結第二幕向下金融機構檢查之業務費預算五十萬元書面報告案決定上列三十九案均勻"},{"start":2157.757,"end":2175.68,"text":"報告完成 準以動之提報院會討論事項 除以中華民國114年中央政府總預算決議有關金管會主管預算凍結專案報告案9案1.金管會新增決議凍結金管會資業務費預算30%專案報告案2.凍結第二幕金融監理向下金融監督管理預算50萬元書面報告案3.金管會決議凍結第二幕金融監理向下金融監督管理預算20分之1專案報告案"},{"start":2184.502,"end":2194.728,"text":"4.金管會銀行局新增決議凍結金管會銀行局資業務費預算30%專案報告案5.金管會證取局新增決議凍結金管會證券期貨局資業務費預算30%專案報告案6.金管會保險局新增決議凍結金管會保險局資業務費預算30%專案報告案7.凍結金管會保險局第二目保險監理預算100萬元專案報告案"},{"start":2210.317,"end":2232.612,"text":"8 金管會檢察局新政決議凍結金管會檢察局資業務費預算30%專案報告案9 凍結金管會檢察局第二模金融機構檢查預算300萬元專案報告案報告及討論事項合併詢答經金管會主委彭金龍財政部長莊翠媛中央銀行副總裁嚴忠大分別提出報告後 既有委員林德福等17人提出質詢"},{"start":2235.294,"end":2263.874,"text":"顏副總裁 財政部莊部長 金管副副組委 兆豐商業銀行董事長董麗冰 彰化銀行董事長胡鴻豪及相關人員予以答覆及說明決議一 報告說明及審查完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會一週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三 委員陽求 殷成 萬庭所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆四 中韓國一百四年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":2264.654,"end":2271.778,"text":"有關金融監督管理委會主管預算凍結專案報告案9案均與審查完略准予動之提報院會宣讀完畢好在場的委員為主法定的人數所以我們的議事錄暫不確定請議事人員先讀今日的議程"},{"start":2293.079,"end":2313.625,"text":"討論事項一審查國際金融業務條例八案一委員沈發慧等十八人委員鍾嘉斌等十七人分別擬據國際金融業務條例第十三條第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案等二案二行政院行政委員李坤誠等二十人委員陳金輝等十六人委員郭國文等十九人"},{"start":2314.105,"end":2328.01,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬據國際金融業務條例第22條之16條文修正草案等6案2審查證券投資人及其或交易人保護法9案1行政院函請審議"},{"start":2329.27,"end":2353.832,"text":"委員鍾嘉斌等20人 委員李坤澄等19人 委員沈發慧等18人分別擬具證件投資人及其或交易人保護法部分條文修正草案等4案二委員林楚英等17人 委員王洪維等19人委員郭國恩等18人 委員賴世保等32人分別擬具證件投資人及其或交易人保護法第10條 第1條文修正草案等4案"},{"start":2355.111,"end":2374.299,"text":"三委員 林思敏等18人 女居 證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第10條之一及第20條條文修正草案案宣讀完畢好是來我們先請問那個對義事錄有沒有意義"},{"start":2375.558,"end":2403.832,"text":"好 無異議 那我們的議事錄確定首先我先介紹在場的委員我第一個介紹吳秉瑞委員沈花卉委員林楚瑩委員林德虎委員謝謝 那依序我們介紹今天參與的政府官員首先介紹軍管會主委彭主委"},{"start":2406.872,"end":2432.735,"text":"我們的法事處林處長 林志憲處長那我們的銀行局董局長證取局張局長保險局王立惠王局長檢察局我們的賴新國賴局長那依序介紹證件投資人及期貨交易中保護中心張董事長還有林俊宏總經理"},{"start":2435.902,"end":2461.96,"text":"那還有我們接著介紹財政部副稅署宋署長中央銀行外匯局紅戶局長行政院行政訴訟及懲戒廳陳法官施法院抱歉謝謝那法務部法治司謝戶司長本次會議安排審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":2464.211,"end":2469.753,"text":"國際金融業務條例第22條之16條文修正草案委員審判會等18人凝聚國際金融業務條例等第13條第22條之7第22條之16條文修正草案等8案"},{"start":2482.277,"end":2510.651,"text":"審查行政院行情審議證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案委員郭國文等18人凝聚證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第10條之一條文修正草案委員林思敏等18人凝聚證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第10條之一第20條條文修正草案等9案"},{"start":2511.591,"end":2529.307,"text":"將先請提案人員說明提案的要旨以後再請金管會彭主委說明並回應委員的提案內容那每一位提案的委員說明是三分鐘那我們先請省劃會委員提案說明"},{"start":2540.754,"end":2569.385,"text":"主席現在是先就這個國際金融業務條例一起兩個案一起對好這個今天這個有本席在這邊有提兩個修正草案一個國際金融業務條例第13條22條跟22條之16的條文修正另外一個是證券投資人及期貨交易保護法的部分條文修正草案那在這裡做簡單的提案說明"},{"start":2570.393,"end":2591.403,"text":"首先我提出有關國際金融業務條例的相關條文修正草案因為這個條例從民國72年開始歷經多次修正大部分都配合我國的金融國際化提升保險業的國際市場的競爭力而且要打造亞洲變成亞洲資產管理中心這個相關非常重要的一部法律"},{"start":2593.884,"end":2612.851,"text":"這個對此本期提出的修法主要有兩個重點第一個就是要這個現行的這個國際保險業務的分公司經營保險業務的這個租稅優惠包括盈利事業所得稅、營業稅、印花稅還要免於扣繳所得稅這個原定生效日起10年將於114年2月5日這個"},{"start":2618.614,"end":2631.906,"text":"為了吸引國際資金促進商品創新跟多元化本行提案建議將優惠期限延長至104年2月6日起算20年也就是到124年12月31日跟國際金融業務分行、國際證券業務分公司的租稅優惠期限一致"},{"start":2640.37,"end":2662.367,"text":"第二個為了維護實質的科稅公平明確規範國際金融業務分行國際證券業務分公司跟保險業務分公司他們經營的損失不得從所得額中來減除避免因為租稅優惠而產生稅基的流失接下來就這個"},{"start":2664.161,"end":2676.769,"text":"另外就證券投資及期貨交易人保護法的部分本期所提出的草案最主要有兩大重點第一個是強化投資人的訴訟權益第二個是擴充保護機構的經費來源因為證券期貨市場國際化雖然現行法已經有規定有代表訴訟跟檢驗訴訟的這些機制但是還不夠完備"},{"start":2689.907,"end":2710.002,"text":"本席特別把董監事涉及財報、公開說明書不實還有證券詐欺、非常微交易、侵佔背信等等這些重大的不法行為名列為保護機構可以提起代表訴訟跟檢驗訴訟的獨立事由這是第一點第二個重點就是說有關於經費來源的擴充"},{"start":2711.483,"end":2731.397,"text":"過去這些保護機構的經費主要來自當年度保護基金的這個支息但是隨著這個訴訟案件增加這樣的經費來源已經不太足夠了所以這次修法除了當年的支息以外也把歷年支息扣除掉業務支出之後的餘額一路納入經費來源讓這個保護機構有更充裕的裁員來推動相關的業務"},{"start":2735.839,"end":2747.402,"text":"總結來講這部分的修法不但強化投資人的保護也讓保護機構有更穩定的裁員有助於我證券市場的健全發展以上這兩個法在這裡懇請各位委員支持順利推動修法"},{"start":2761.296,"end":2783.729,"text":"謝謝主席我們各位立法院財政委員會的同仁還有今天各位與會的官員今天本席要針對我所提出的證券投資人及期貨交易保護法第十條之一的修正案來進行說明我們都知道證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法主要的立法目的就是在保障"},{"start":2784.629,"end":2806.216,"text":"證券投資人及期貨交易的相關人的權益喔而投保中心是依據這個法規而設立的保護機構其中第十條之一規定投保中心在發現上市櫃公司的董監是有重大損害公司或違法行為的時候得提起代表訴訟或解任訴訟以處"},{"start":2808.277,"end":2831.958,"text":"管理階層善盡職責適時的解任不適任的董監事但是在現行的法規將不法範圍過度的限縮導致本席長期關注有關於公司治理其中包括財報公開說明書不實的情況或者是董監事做出精湛"},{"start":2833.41,"end":2843.456,"text":"背信非常規交易都沒有辦法由投保中心來代位阻止不適任的董監事繼續任職因此本席這一次在條文中特別增訂了違法的樣態讓投保中心可以對公司追究責任讓公司治理可以更為健全也讓投資人的保護能夠更全面"},{"start":2857.385,"end":2879.87,"text":"另外一方面目前的法規投保中心在發現不法可是發現不法的這個發現這兩個字其實在定義上是非常模糊的所以在執行上面就容易造成判斷上面的困難所以本席特別也在這個提案當中改以比較明確的檢察官起訴為標準"},{"start":2883.931,"end":2898.256,"text":"以利于投保中心在判断这个时间的起始点上面可以有一个依据我们都知道随着国际金融环境快速的变化金融商品跟投资行为也越来越多样与复杂"},{"start":2899.196,"end":2924.046,"text":"相關法規更應該與時俱進才能夠提供投資人一個公平安全的交易環境那麼這一次的修法就是希望能夠強化保護機構給予投資人的保障範圍更加的明確以利維持金融市場的健全發展也希望我們財政委員會的各位委員及官員能夠支持本席的提案謝謝好 謝謝楚茵委員那"},{"start":2929.997,"end":2951.606,"text":"接著請鍾嘉斌委員說明提案要旨鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請李昆城委員 李昆城 李昆城 李昆城委員不在請郭國文委員 郭國文 郭國文 郭國文委員不在請陳一貞委員 陳一貞 陳一貞 陳一貞委員不在請賴世寶委員 賴世寶 賴世寶 賴世寶委員不在請林思銘委員"},{"start":2957.608,"end":2980.876,"text":"林思敏委員 林思敏委員不在請陳靜薇委員 陳靜薇委員 陳靜薇委員不在請羅廷偉 羅廷偉 羅廷偉 羅廷偉委員不在請王紅薇 王紅薇 王紅薇委員說明提案要旨 王紅薇委員不在我們請金管會彭主委說明並且回應委員的提案內容"},{"start":2986.946,"end":3005.987,"text":"主席各位委員各位媒體先進大家早安貴委員會今天審議行政院函報國際金融業務條例第22條之16修正草案證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案陳貴委員會邀請提出報告表達由衷謝意"},{"start":3007.589,"end":3023.024,"text":"以下僅就上開草案以及大院諸位委員所提修正條文草案分別提出本會意見 敬請各位委員指教一 有關國際金融業務條例第22條之16修正草案第22條之16規定租稅優惠年限於114年2月5日屆滿"},{"start":3027.849,"end":3048.861,"text":"為配合我國推動亞洲資產管理中心,持續提供租稅優惠為推展之重要誘因,實有再延長之必要。經與財政部溝通,修正自104年2月6日起至124年12月31日止,稅事支出評估報告,經財政部扶貧尚無不同意見。"},{"start":3050.502,"end":3069.163,"text":"有關大院委員審發會等18項擬具修正條文草案部分第13條第22條之7第一項第22條之16第一項有關經營業務之損失不得自所得而檢除部分因素可行本會竟表贊同為人需尊重財政部意見"},{"start":3069.944,"end":3088.815,"text":"令租稅優惠期間原建議依行政院提案修正至中華民國一百零四年二月六號起至一百二四年十二月三十一日子有關委員鍾嘉斌等十七人擬具修正條文草案部分同上委員審發會等十八人擬具之修正條文草案意見"},{"start":3089.576,"end":3100.856,"text":"本會認為因屬可行競表贊同為人需尊重財政部之意見並有關第22條之7第5項有關OSU免稅期間修正部分"},{"start":3102.403,"end":3118.364,"text":"省州OIU免稅期間延長至124年12月31日址約再延長10年基於OSU OIU免稅期間延長期限以採相同標準原建議OSU免稅期間比照OIU延長10年至127年12月30日址"},{"start":3121.087,"end":3137.139,"text":"那為人需尊重財政部的意見有關委員李坤成等二十人所提修正條文草案與行政院版本所提內容相同本會競表贊同另有關證券投資人及期貨交易保護法部分條文修正草案部分"},{"start":3137.839,"end":3147.505,"text":"本次為完備代表訴訟、解認訴訟之法規制度及考量保護機構相關訴訟由智慧財產與商業法院審理訴訟業務加重,時有擴充保護機構經費來源以因應未來業務發展所需修正重點,擴大保護機構提起代表訴訟、解認訴訟之獨立適由範圍"},{"start":3160.894,"end":3180.074,"text":"增列證券詐欺、財報或公開說明書不實、非常規交易、侵佔、背信並明定已起訴且未定訴訟案件適用修正實施後規定放寬保護機構執行業務之支出及費用之限制除現行當年度保護"},{"start":3181.455,"end":3193.809,"text":"基金支息外亦將歷年保護基金支息支應業務支出剩餘撥回基金累積數之合計一併作為保護機構的經費來源有關委員林楚英等17人擬據修正條文"},{"start":3196.332,"end":3224.842,"text":"部分第一項序文建議甄列經檢察官起訴後文字查經檢察官起訴目前為保護機構啟動裁判解認之判斷情形之一但司法實務上亦有案例不涉及刑事程序而經裁判解認案例故未落實保護公共利益不宜甄列經檢察官起訴等文字原建議採行政院提案條文委員王宏偉等19人擬拒修正草案部分"},{"start":3225.882,"end":3249.205,"text":"民定已卸任之董事或監察人亦為解任訴訟對象及三年失格效因司法院提出請求權依據、處分性質、管轄權等法律定性及司法實務見解上有疑慮因無法達成共識本會原未納入本次投保法修正原建議採行政院提案條文委員、宗嘉斌等二十人擬據修正條文議案"},{"start":3250.106,"end":3275.629,"text":"委員所提第20條修正內容支出剩餘撥回基金僅以前三年為限如預前三年合計剩餘較低或當年度有較大需求可能有剩餘無法支應業務之情形考量近年保護機構業務不斷擴增又目前規定年度預算編列需經董事會決議申報本會合定已具有控管機制原建議採行政院提案條文所提"},{"start":3276.329,"end":3297.157,"text":"所提三十二條有關判決結果通知投資之方式考量基於尊重投資人之的權益及續行授權之意願仍維持原條文鎖定以書面通知為宜以保障其權益原建議維持現行條文另有關委員審發會等及其他委員所提的修正草案與行政院條文相較"},{"start":3297.937,"end":3325.251,"text":"修正條文文字皆相同差異僅法制作業規範格式原建議採行政令條文以上報告敬請各位委員會議指教與支持並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝好謝謝彭主委現在開始詢答先做以下的先告每位出席的委員花言時間是8分鐘必要的時候得延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言時間是4分鐘今天早上10點"},{"start":3327.079,"end":3342.827,"text":"我們截止花園的一個登記那本次那個會議委員若是有相關的修正動議請敬送主席台已被議事人員整理現在已登記的順序請登記第一位林德胡委員質詢"},{"start":3367.875,"end":3379.111,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝主席還有我們彭主委與會各列席冠軍是不是請彭主委 金管會彭主委請金管會彭主委"},{"start":3382.162,"end":3386.525,"text":"金管會公布四月高資產理財統計,媒體報導,由於川普對等關稅造成全球股災,"},{"start":3399.552,"end":3423.645,"text":"衝擊投資人的信心因此在高資產大戶的資產值存款比重來到46.2%比起商業多多出了0.7個百分點是去年11月以來的最高紀錄那我請問主委高資產大戶"},{"start":3427.27,"end":3453.681,"text":"存款比重增加是不是因為大多數金融商品投資不確定性的風險提高已成定數所以說這些大戶寧可把錢放在銀行不去投資您的看法呢是 柯文報告我想就是我們剛才委員有提到這個從川普提出這個對等關稅政策全球的資本市場都出現一個波動不過"},{"start":3454.761,"end":3482.839,"text":"我們剛才講若以現在的狀況全球主要的股市大概都已經回到原來的水準甚至已經已經比原來還更高那至於說高資產客戶的理財行為這確實需要再做深入的分析不過剛委員指證的就是說他的那個所謂的現金部位或是資金部位是不是有顯著因為這樣提高我們看到數據就我們知道並沒有說太大的這樣一個差異當然是剛委員提到說有比較高本來他們的"},{"start":3483.78,"end":3505.843,"text":"他們的理財行為就跟一般的我們是不太一樣所以這部分大概很難就說因為這個維福的征服就說是因為這件事情有一個連動的關係主委我請教又或者還是有哪些屬於低風險的這些金融產品能可以作為投資的參考標的依您看"},{"start":3506.664,"end":3529.274,"text":"其實很多人也想知道這個答案我想說我們有一句話就是投資都有風險我們要審慎的評估跟投資因為從很簡單的學理裡面風險跟報酬是相對應的風險低當然是報酬低那當然大部分都希望追求高的報酬就要忍受比較多的波動"},{"start":3530.094,"end":3550.07,"text":"我想但是尤其最近這段時間全球的很多過去我們可能認為相對比較穩定的投資工具呢也面對到一些波動這也是讓我們所有的投資人要注意風險主委這個財政部半個月前公布四月證券交易稅這個真的178億元這個"},{"start":3555.734,"end":3556.355,"text":"年減幅高達31%3月4月連續兩個月互成長"},{"start":3564.674,"end":3581.661,"text":"這個台股交易動人顯著的降溫顯示投資人的信心明顯有受挫但是本席觀察台股4月9日是17306點的低點到解除限空令到這個5月26日的大盤指數21536這個"},{"start":3595.669,"end":3609.174,"text":"21536點卻也反彈了4000多點那我請問主委你認為這一個推來的大盤反彈是台股完全回歸基本面還是台股超跌的技術面的一個反應依您看勒"},{"start":3611.896,"end":3636.112,"text":"剛剛確實我們也觀察到今年上半年我們台股的成交量因為去年大概是台股成交量最暢旺的一段時間我們也看到大概平均的日均量大概減少了大概15%左右我想這個數值大概都很清楚因為當然主要是我們從今年上半年包括大家所知道的這些國際經濟情勢的變動那當然是有影響"},{"start":3639.974,"end":3656.419,"text":"剛剛提到就是說我們假設以這個對等關稅來看的話這個事件確實陳主委講說我們從這個兩萬一千多點然後到一萬七千三來到了一萬七千多點的低點然後現在又回到了原點甚至高一點"},{"start":3657.779,"end":3683.744,"text":"我想說其實我們在很多場合都提到台灣在過去在我們的經濟的表現包括我們截至四月我們所有的上市櫃公司它其實營收這些表現大概都有差不多15%以上的比去年同期還高當然有人說這是因為提前拉貨的原因但是台灣在經濟上相對我們亞洲其他國家基本面這是無庸置疑的我想這個"},{"start":3684.804,"end":3706.292,"text":"股市呢如果回歸市場機制自然就會反映到我們真實的狀況因為不管怎麼樣消息面最後還是回到基本面這樣齁 那個主委因為一個多月內的台股大盤指數以及啊台股成交量的統計金管會上個禮拜五宣布說解除限控令那我請問主委你認為"},{"start":3708.113,"end":3722.287,"text":"台股面對關稅戰的壓力測試是不是已經過關所以說軍管會才會決定解除限工令其實我想未來的事情大家都很難預料我們要戒慎恐懼"},{"start":3723.368,"end":3751.354,"text":"那我們所謂的過去是因應在4月7號那個措施主要是我想當時大家回想4月7號因為我們放廉價的關係市場充滿了不理性的預期心理所以這時候呢我們進行市場上面的一個所謂的市場上做一些措施穩定這個所謂的非理性的行為的可能確實也發揮了效用我們有一句話說手伸久了會痠我們必須適度的收回來才有下一次"},{"start":3752.034,"end":3766.773,"text":"出手的這個力道我想未來充滿的不確定性這個我們金管會這個措施是隨時保持高度的激動隨時應應各種的狀況我覺得我們可以透過更彈性的方式但是我們先"},{"start":3767.854,"end":3783.77,"text":"市場回歸市場機制還是最重要的因為有股民擔憂儘管會雨天收傘恐量變盤那你認為有沒有可能這個股市空荒大軍捲土重來來催化"},{"start":3784.491,"end":3806.793,"text":"整個端午變盤會不會我想如果從長期的觀點如果說從當天來看當然大家就會有這樣的一個想法我想其實台灣的市場我跟你講就是最近幾年尤其最近十年我們台灣的資本市場已經逐步的成長茁壯已經快要排名是在全世界接近前十名的資本市場"},{"start":3807.754,"end":3821.419,"text":"我想台灣具有一定的韌性而且國際上面也有高度的肯定我們這次的一些的在資本市場的一些作為這是個長期性的而不是只看一個端午節或是看一個所謂的那個簡單的漲跌來看待這個制度"},{"start":3826.616,"end":3841.077,"text":"好 那個主委我再請教因為這個關心大盤之餘本席也注意到有三家上市櫃公司因被如期公告2024年第一季的財報遭主管機關"},{"start":3842.319,"end":3859.676,"text":"列入觀察名單目前都已經是停止交易的這種狀態那我請問主委這幾家公司在為如期繳交財報前是不是已經出現有別於正常上市櫃公司的交易異狀"},{"start":3861.478,"end":3884.519,"text":"其實我們現在的上市櫃公司家數已經接近兩千家市場有進有退這個大概都是一個非常正常的現象我們的上市櫃交易所跟櫃買中心針對這些異常的現象都有嚴密的監控剛才委員所提到那幾家公司有些每家情況不一樣有些是因為經營權的增值有些是因為財務的問題"},{"start":3885.66,"end":3907.478,"text":"我想這些我們在現有的機制上都按照我們的機制在運作跟管控中那如果有是不是金管會證交所會在停止交易處分前採取哪些處置或措施如果沒有的話那麼投資民眾這又該怎麼樣來避免踩雷啊你覺得呢"},{"start":3908.038,"end":3927.946,"text":"當然就是我們所有的投資大概都會有風險但是以台灣的資本市場規模跟現在我們那個發生這些加速還有這些的內容來看我覺得台灣的資本市場相對是穩健不過我們還是要提醒所有的投資人其實我們所有上市櫃公司定期都有做財務的揭露還有一些訊息如果重大影響到"},{"start":3929.186,"end":3947.74,"text":"這個所謂的這個股東權益跟影響到公司的話都要做重大資訊的揭露我們也提醒說所有投資人要注意資訊的這樣的觀察還有就是風險這樣齁那個主委因為三家之中的一家是老牌食品大廠啊胡冒有指"},{"start":3948.28,"end":3957.328,"text":"那近年營運狀況大致上是穩定過去8年也都發放過超過1元的現金鼓勵但是從108年以來開始經營權主委就是經營權的爭奪戰創辦家家族與市場派這個代表之間的鬥爭"},{"start":3971.019,"end":3996.908,"text":"成為最後公司沒有辦法如期繳交財報的關鍵因素那主委近幾年上市櫃公司經營權之爭頻傳那幾年前的大同公司的經營權之爭更如連續聚班的熱度那我請問主委上市櫃公司出現經營權之爭有沒有分良性與惡性之別 有沒有"},{"start":3997.745,"end":4013.268,"text":"我想經營權之爭是我們市場上面的稱呼啦其實上就是一個比如說我們在對於董監的選舉那我想我們都有一套的這個相關的遊戲規則那其實我們就按照這個法律來走"},{"start":4014.65,"end":4036.502,"text":"對 違規的我們就會來處理然後大家都是守法的話我們就按照這套制度來進行那金管會跟證交所對上市櫃經營權之爭出現白熱化目前可以所採取的處置和措施有哪些金管會或證交所採取的處置措施是不是有更明確的訊號"},{"start":4038.543,"end":4061.272,"text":"讓公司的小兒的投資人或股東能夠清楚的判斷以避免手中股票變成壁紙你的看法呢這一點我想我剛剛跟委員報告過了所有的這些都要依照現行的法規來進行如果違法我們一定是嚴格處置那如果說是合規的行為我們就尊重市場"},{"start":4062.376,"end":4085.831,"text":"對啦 那你要是沒好好的處置這些小股東們到時候會不會傻傻的坐以待斃啊 會不會就變成這個樣子當然就是我們剛才就像我們今天審議的這些條文裡面我們有針對這違規行為投資人保護的部分我們就會啟動這套機制像比如說這些有問題的我們投保中心都會參與會議這就是其中一個機制啊"},{"start":4086.411,"end":4103.673,"text":"最後一題,這幾天新台幣升值又升破30元,重返29.59元因為金融行業中的受險公司多將龐大的保惠收入投資在美元計價的海外債券與股票"},{"start":4106.107,"end":4131.905,"text":"來賺取較高的收益所以說新台幣升值時這些海外投資帳面價值縮水未充分避險將產生可觀的匯兌損失那請問主委推行外匯準備金的心智你認為對保險業經營上有哪些優點和缺點我想所謂外價準備金跟我們的傳統用工具避險"},{"start":4132.905,"end":4150.58,"text":"這是兩種不同一種是利用所謂的風險管理上面風險移轉一個就是我們所謂自我保險這兩個都是風險管理的方法我想這個都是可行我們是建議公司基於他的專業來做這樣一個省政的運用換句話說受險業避險後有賄損可使用外匯準備金金額抵押沖抵"},{"start":4159.528,"end":4177.449,"text":"但如果有匯兌利益也必須有百分之百的提存是不是對保險業整個獲利與未來展望也會有一些負面的影響其實剛委員也有提到這次是帳面價值的縮水"},{"start":4177.99,"end":4202.59,"text":"剛才講說所謂的提存外價金就是它的未實現的收益他把它提存起來主要是要面對以後的未實現損失其實這樣都是未實現的跟我們很多人理解的損失叫做虧錢其實都是帳面上的所以這也是為什麼受險運的特性所以我們透過這套機制呢讓保險公司有兩種工具可以來選擇這樣喔是的好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝德虎接著請吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":4217.83,"end":4236.181,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會彭主委好 請彭主委委員早主委早投資人保護中心現在的編制是什麼樣子還有多少人這個詳細的數字我可以請董事長跟委員簡單說明"},{"start":4242.068,"end":4244.951,"text":"我們的編制是58人,但實際是50人你們現在聘了幾位住在你們裡面的律師?18位50位有18位是律師這18位律師的薪資是什麼狀況?"},{"start":4261.553,"end":4289.894,"text":"我們按照他的年資不同 平均我們之前統計過大概是8萬多平均是8萬多好 那主委我要請教你這個投資人保護中心如果遇到比較大的訴訟是自己的這18位律師去打官司呢還是要外聘律師剛剛董事長提到 既然有自己的律師就由自己來處理"},{"start":4291.584,"end":4317.969,"text":"那律師這個行業因為我是有一些了解八萬多平均的薪資是低的那如果是一般的律師他是專門職業技術的license基本上他也是有一點商業行為的色彩我是說一般在外面的律師那如果他在外面職業狀況良好的"},{"start":4320.523,"end":4345.741,"text":"他的收入遠不只平均八萬多也就是說用平均八萬多養十八個律師在投資人保護中心裡面專門等待訴訟這樣的想法跟幾位比較能夠了解說這個案件判斷該不該提起訴訟然後如果要提訴訟 外聘律師"},{"start":4347.37,"end":4371.332,"text":"比較優秀訴訟方面表現成效良好的律師來打官司你覺得這個效果會不會不一樣花費也可能會有點不一樣搞不好也會比較省來 請說謝謝委員的詮詢就是基本上我們上次有考慮過說是不是要有外聘或雙軌的一個方式就是我們有自己的律師跟外聘的律師當然投保中心有一些"},{"start":4372.833,"end":4399.428,"text":"訴訟上策略上的考量必須跟有一致性就在不同的個案當中那再加上外部的市場其實他們也可以考慮跟投保中心有力衝的一些案子我們現在目前大概有一百多個案子在運作所以其實外部市場是不是有這樣子的一個可能性也還要再研議那你們過去三年的訴訟成果我看到的統計資料都是勝訴的部分是那有多少敗訴的"},{"start":4401.438,"end":4410.648,"text":"委員要看不同的類型是看財報還是看因為我現在看到的資料你們過去三年求償的金額新台幣799億然後判決得到賠償的金額是324億然後和解的金額是63億這樣勝訴的比例"},{"start":4420.658,"end":4443.039,"text":"如果你起訴的求償金額扣掉和解金額大概是730那你才獲勝數324代表你獲勝的金額不到一半我是說如果從我粗略的統計數字這樣來看所以你的勝訴的案件當然有敗訴的案件也不少"},{"start":4444.212,"end":4467.411,"text":"那敗訴之後有沒有去檢討什麼原因敗訴或是當初根本就不應該起訴這一方面是由誰來控管由誰來判斷好 跟委員報告委員剛才這些數字是歷年從投保中心設立到現在的數字所以大概有一半左右的就一半左右的敗訴的可能性那我們現在的"},{"start":4468.092,"end":4494.324,"text":"基本上所有的案子收案都是百分之九十可能八都是從檢察官起訴的案件移轉給我們的所以我們會從檢察官起訴案件中評估評估如果有訴訟的這個十億的話我們就會送董事會如果董事會通過我們才會提起訴訟對那結果在經過檢察官起訴你們在審查認為說這個應該要去告結果告了之後法院對你支持的比例不到一半"},{"start":4496.718,"end":4516.631,"text":"那這個中間坦白講是有什麼問題啊今天檢察官起訴的案件就是檢察官認為有犯罪嫌疑嘛好那他基本上檢察官就過濾了一遍你在這個檢察官起訴的案件裡面你們董事會再去選擇哪一些該告這你們再經過一次的篩選"},{"start":4518.206,"end":4544.293,"text":"就這樣的篩選告了之後還是你們會裡面18位律師專門的律師你們在投保中心裡面專門的律師去進行訴訟結果勝訴的比例不到一半這個喔民事訴訟喔坦白講如果丙除掉大訴啦民事訴訟的勝率應該是一半一半"},{"start":4545.834,"end":4566.282,"text":"委員我可以跟您報告一下嗎就是我們在其實現在很多訴訟特別是財報不實都金額非常大但是在損害培養的計算上目前法院沒有穩定的見解所以我們一開始在計算的時候會採取對投資人比較保護的一個損害培養計算法叫毛損益法早期的案件都是這樣現在法院的見解比較穩定以後會採一個比較稍微"},{"start":4567.562,"end":4589.481,"text":"貼近實際的一個狀況的競選法所以早期的案件金額都會非常的大我是很敬佩你們要保護這個投資人的這樣子的想法跟做法但是我遇到的個案的陳情也有很多在訴訟就以我以前曾經擔任過的職務來看有些訴訟是不合理的就在我來看這個爛訴啊"},{"start":4592.541,"end":4617.386,"text":"所以我現在是在講說你們這個機制如何設置你要去保護投資你的名稱叫做投保中心這我很贊成這個工作我也很贊成那問題是你怎麼去踐行這一個機制那你一方面要保護你名義上的投資派人另外一個角度反面來講也有可能會進入不該告的人去告的話被告的人也非常痛苦的何況你們是"},{"start":4618.266,"end":4631.991,"text":"你們有的是資本你們可以對人家假扣押假處分假扣押假處分假執行你們有的是資本那你是用訴訟用強勢的訴訟方法那被你告的人有一些是很該告的"},{"start":4633.049,"end":4661.442,"text":"阿如果不該被告的然後你又去查封他的你又用這個保全處分去查封他的他連生活都出問題阿我就曾經遇到過這樣的懲罰案件阿所以我今天就想說主委投保中心這個政策我認為很好但是他的設置跟他要達到的目標跟他現在進行之後你去給他檢驗中間是不是有可以再改進的地方是"},{"start":4662.512,"end":4690.76,"text":"當然所有的制度在運行一陣子他們都會持續的做剛剛委員剛剛提到包括如何選案如何決定訴訟是不是有更精細的篩檢標準還有就是是不是能夠找更專業的人來協助是不是能夠提升勝率而且不要就是等於說過多的就剛委員提到假設是不應該提起訴訟的部分是不是應該有個比較嚴謹的檢核訴訟第一個降低成本也能夠更精準的去保護投資人我想"},{"start":4693.261,"end":4715.612,"text":"這個從董事長領導的投保中心過去一直也跟我們保持密切的合作相關需要改善的地方我們會請我們的相關業務局跟他們去做進一步的研商我覺得我要提供一個我認為比較關鍵的問題就是你要決定起不起訴這大概要有比較"},{"start":4717.687,"end":4742.779,"text":"專業可以判斷訴訟走向的人來做我不知道你們董經事的聘請是怎麼樣不是說大家覺得這裡有損害該告就告我是覺得你認不認同我認為你要選擇訴訟該告的案件當然要告但是有一些告的選擇也不是爛訴檢察官送來的我全部都告"},{"start":4743.977,"end":4771.462,"text":"這也不見得是正確啦所以誰再決定告不告我認為是關鍵的問題好 跟委員補充報告一下基本上我們如果是故意的行為我們一定大部分都會列成被告如果是法律上其他的過失跟推定過失的我們目前在獨立董事的部分已經有一個審議內部的審議機制去衡量這個獨立董事的行為看有沒有符合法律上的禁職的概念如果有的話我們就不會提起訴訟而且我們實務上還有三種情況是當然不會提起訴訟的情況對獨立董事"},{"start":4773.402,"end":4797.91,"text":"你講到獨立董事我就是要提醒你你如果是這樣子沒有好好的審慎的評估就去訴訟將來企業上市歸公司獨立董事沒有人敢幹獨立董事在很多上市歸公司其實他領的待遇非常的微薄結果動不動告他然後再對他進行保全程序公司做了一些壞事"},{"start":4799.823,"end":4825.251,"text":"連他的董事會面已經表達說我反對然後還用純正心來告訴董事會說你這樣違法那一種的你們都在告這一種的我是說以過去我收到陳情的案例為例那如果這樣下去的話這件事情是因為現在大家相當專業大家沒有聚焦在這上面弄下去之後以後你要找獨立董事都有困難了"},{"start":4826.71,"end":4843.416,"text":"是 各位原報官我們現在有三種情況如果他已經表示異議或者他有去檢舉吹哨或是他有請獨立外部專家來協助的話我們會當然不提告那這個現在是新改的這個政策嗎是 之前就有之前是有 但是我遇到的情景不是這樣啊"},{"start":4845.157,"end":4858.772,"text":"當然他有一些細緻的部分就是說他的反對是不是針對財報不實的情況有沒有講到確實有虛位的一個情況的有一些差距在確實在構成要件上還有一些更細緻的部分"},{"start":4859.845,"end":4871.789,"text":"所以我們在這裡當然不方便檢討個案啦我是說他瞻之時可以公錯過去的案例你也可以來參考好 謝謝委員以前做的事情如果後來到事後證明說這個是相當離譜"},{"start":4875.35,"end":4899.804,"text":"你那個判斷部分的檢討以及檢討之後到底這裡有沒有責任我如果是你們住裡面的律師我會怎麼想 反正我的薪水就是這樣我告人也是這樣 告書也是這樣告人就變成不用去承擔那個後果被訴訟除了國家有司法成本之外"},{"start":4901.653,"end":4930.792,"text":"被你告的人他也要付出司法成本這些成本可能不是你在文字上看到有人說你被告就被告吧你不知道被告的痛苦再來如果你做保全程序的話他的財產全部都被你封走了他要如何生活所以這個事情要訴訟在我來看是一個嚴肅的事情當然該告的人必須要告因為這些人如果是利用這個制度為惡的人我也很贊成告他"},{"start":4931.773,"end":4956.903,"text":"但是誰來決定告不告就變成一件很重要的事我覺得這一方面要加油啦要加強因為也不是說檢察官移給你的案子你就一定絕對都要告我跟你說以我以前在法院的經驗檢察官起訴的案件定罪的比例有一些我舉個例子以貪賭罪為例到最後判決確定的有罪不到五成"},{"start":4959.176,"end":4977.187,"text":"那當然有一些他已經自白了有一些輕微的犯罪他也不想懶得跟你爭執了那個當然定罪的比例就高所以我的意思是說自己要有判斷的能力該告要不要告這個是你們這個機關對社會有沒有公信力的一個關鍵點好 謝謝委員"},{"start":4980.049,"end":5002.88,"text":"主委請你督導加油好不好是沒關係我們會請我們棋局跟他們保持密切的剛剛委員提到那兩點是不是增加專業的這樣的協助在就是對於選案的部分有一個更精準的標準更符合我們社會期待的標準好謝謝加油好謝謝接著請賴司保委召委諮詢"},{"start":5015.866,"end":5027.331,"text":"謝謝主席 今天去拍這裡有足足的題目我們請這個彭主委還有護睡署的署長好 請彭主委跟護睡署 宋署長宋署長 謝謝 宋署長先請教那個主委好了你這個前面啊 漏漏的講一堆好幾個委員的提案啦"},{"start":5044.513,"end":5059.438,"text":"國際金融業務等等一堆的提案主要就是我們要打造亞洲資產管理中心給他免稅對不對他原來就有啦期限到了期限到了現在OVU是沒有期限啦"},{"start":5059.778,"end":5084.028,"text":"OIU是早期4年期限OIU是117年期限到了這是它在3年後到期OIU呢是今年到期 已經到期了今年2月到期 沒收就沒付 沒付息了希望在年底以前還來得及年底以前怎麼付不是 它可以追溯 因為那個報稅是到明年報好 那我請教那個署長 受署長這樣子稅數有多少啊"},{"start":5085.623,"end":5108.153,"text":"就是根據稅務評估報告,這是有金管會提供的我記得是金額不大,應該是幾百萬而已因為他們的最初還有所謂最終以及他們用同樣的方式如果要達到效果,他們直接支出需要更多"},{"start":5112.114,"end":5127.659,"text":"樂見其成我們敬表尊重敬表尊重 你們是幾百萬 一百萬 九百萬沒有 主要是跟委員報告 就是過去我們的這裡不算稅喔 這裡是營所稅 營業稅 印花稅 所得稅"},{"start":5131.52,"end":5160.308,"text":"跟我們報告就是過去我們在那個境外的保險分公司叫OIU的部分過去因為確實業績不彰所以剛才講我們的稅損是很有限的我想剛才也看到過去這麼多年來但是因為最近我們在推動這個亞洲資產管理中心特別針對境外的客戶就是外國人我們希望打造一個整合的金融服務這裡面就給規模會跨到多少"},{"start":5161.709,"end":5189.627,"text":"這部分我無法預期預期預期你預期一下我覺得我上次給保險局的一個想法預期漲5倍好不好漲5倍我們給的稅市支出就是未來的估計每年稅損大概是600多萬而已漲幾倍 業務會漲幾倍如果漲幾倍就非常可觀因為我們去年其實我們總共才多少"},{"start":5190.512,"end":5193.301,"text":"我們的...我記得是...我記得很低啊!"},{"start":5193.301,"end":5196.07,"text":"張哥五倍也差不多啊!張十倍也差不多啊!"},{"start":5197.098,"end":5216.161,"text":"長10倍我覺得假設我們今年超過10倍如果所以去年那麼低的基期我覺得應該是很有機會超過20倍如果所以去年那麼低的基期今年的話因為我們已經公告會開放新的產品超過20倍啦好 這樣稅損我們支持啦稅損省了600億超過20億的規模可以嗎不是20億啦好 那個署長可以了 請回 署長請回好"},{"start":5225.163,"end":5234.457,"text":"我們來看受險業這波的台幣升值傷害很大它總共你看到的報表"},{"start":5235.666,"end":5256.556,"text":"他的虧損有多少?受險業其實跟委員報告一下其實很好估計啦我們現在受險業37兆的資金裡面有23兆在海外剩3兆扣掉7兆多是外幣保單不用有匯率的問題裡面大概15兆15兆裡面大概六成避險六成避險除以下就是剩6兆美元"},{"start":5257.216,"end":5265.469,"text":"就是6兆台幣2000億美元左右所以一塊錢的這樣那個漲跌就是差不多總體約略估計2000億的影響數"},{"start":5269.653,"end":5293.65,"text":"六兆兩千億 兩千億怎麼算啊六兆等於是兩千億美金所以說美金跟台幣差一塊錢差不多 譬如說台幣貶值一塊錢它就就是未實現損益這樣的話所以剛才原來講數字差不多就外匯市場差了兩千億就虧損兩千億對 扣掉了那個外交準備資料那我就要請問你喔這個 這個"},{"start":5299.155,"end":5319.828,"text":"這個公衛啊 他們希望說這裡面計價RPC的計價過去都是六月底嘛一個數字啊 一個點對不對現在他們有要求 有拜託希望能不能用均價比如說過去的半年內的均價來算這樣的話 財務報表比較好看一點你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":5321.949,"end":5350.766,"text":"但是柯文報告軍價是一個非常非常中性的做法其實我們以前那個我們叫RBC的股票就是用軍價就是說假設我們市場是緩跌的時候你會覺得軍價有利但是往上走的時候軍價是不利的我想這是個中性的我現在就問你的立場你贊不贊成軍價沒有我覺得因為昨天在我們的記者會我會表達就是我們要維持市場的穩定是我們很重要特別是我們明年要接新的製作這RBC只剩半年的效期啦RBC接下來就會走入歷史了所以我們"},{"start":5353.508,"end":5367.86,"text":"換成新一代清償能力所以我們新的制度所以這部分我們昨天也有對外說我們會來仔細的思考工會這個東西他們建議我們以穩定市場順利過渡為優先我覺得這個方向我們已經正在研議中了"},{"start":5375.065,"end":5390.595,"text":"這個因為它有一個比如說我們是要半年報嘛所以今年來講的話我們接軌之前最重要的時間點就是6月30號這個半年報的財報因為到12月30號那個點已經要換成新的制度了所以6月30給答案6月30號的報表應該就會有這個答案"},{"start":5396.508,"end":5413.824,"text":"所以現在還不能這樣對 因為現在還要經過工會他要給我們一些的數值但是你傾向於同意可以這麼說好 這個就是說主委的意思傾向於同意那麼可以考慮 不需要丟點就是用平均值"},{"start":5414.464,"end":5430.18,"text":"為什麼要這樣做 其實就像我們當年當時考慮股價為什麼用在RBC的時候為什麼要用這套制度因為其實真的6月30號那個時間點並不代表它只是一個結帳我們看清償能力是看長期來 我請教你啊"},{"start":5433.144,"end":5449.628,"text":"請教你 今天雖然財政部相關官員國庫署長不在 今天只是負稅署長我就不問他了行政院已經正式的對外講了要設立國家主權基金這個賴總統親自對外宣布的"},{"start":5452.318,"end":5476.723,"text":"然後呢 因為央行堅持不可以用五廠使用二存體所以政運也善理回應了 所以有潮那出錢的人隨時出錢到財政部 財政部長在這裡的時候他跳起來沒有問題 財政部撿到錢錢所以說五存 幾千億不夠嘛 那幾千億算什麼你說四十五都來放主權基金"},{"start":5477.483,"end":5502.649,"text":"一個方式發行主權基金公債這個點是好不好我想剛剛委員提到一個重點其實主權基金這個概念在不同的國家有不同的財源像最有名的像挪威這是大家都知道挪威純體的它是石油嘛它是因為它開採在北海的石油它所那個財富它把它做成這個那也有人採用公債的方式用債券的方式發行"},{"start":5503.129,"end":5531.2,"text":"那我想說這部分我們尊重相關權責部會的這些思考我只是說假設從我們這個金融市場的資金的這樣的一個投資的去向來講的話確實長期穩定而且具有一定收益的公債會是一個尤其是以台幣計價的公債還有一個重要的原因我們的資本市場老實說只有股票市場發展的還可以我們債券市場都是一塌糊塗"},{"start":5532.27,"end":5560.78,"text":"多發行公債這個時候此其時也我們要發行主權基金錢怎麼來向老百姓來啊中華民國這麼用到對不對來用老百姓的錢用老百姓的錢二十年以後還你利息看多少這是一個很好的而且可以把公債市場活絡起來一起好舉得啊怎麼看都是對的"},{"start":5561.69,"end":5583.568,"text":"其實我們也有去跟授權業者了解他們的需求他們確實以資產負債管理來講的話他們真的需要有更多的台幣投資機會所以我才講說像我們的兆元投資計畫所以我就是問你啊你會不會鼓勵授權公司鼓勵他買主權基金公債"},{"start":5584.289,"end":5597.258,"text":"其實我們是鼓勵了他要做好資產負債管理這是最根本那如果這是個好標的當然就是一個我們很好的一個國資國家這麼贊成啊賴清德跟我這麼贊成啊要去美國投資啊對不對這麼贊成日本來投資日本要跟美國成立聯合的主權基金我不知道這個什麼會有兩個國家的主權基金啊我是聽不懂啦我們支持魯頓聽不懂兩個國家主權基金啊台灣都"},{"start":5613.228,"end":5636.749,"text":"好 最後一題喔這個 這個你是專家啦不是昨天 有某一個軍控公司的董事長承認啦 承認軍控公司的董事長他現在不是了他說了 台幣不應該一次噪聲 應該緩聲"},{"start":5640.319,"end":5660.699,"text":"你聽過這個話了嗎?很多種說法,各式各樣都有昨天那位董事長講,你知道嗎?信菜的其實我們很多種說法啦昨天比較update的消息啦好,可是,還生,那就回到1985年廣場協議還生的結果,日本失落三十名"},{"start":5661.46,"end":5689.049,"text":"他的因為環生大家認為說他一定慢慢升所以熱血一直進來跑哪裡就跑兩個地方一個股票一個房地產股票不斷的上升房地產不斷的上升上升到後來泡沫就變成一個disaster一個很大的災難對國家來講都變一個很大的災難所以現在來講就是到底環生還是一字生竹環生"},{"start":5689.989,"end":5707.7,"text":"對於出口業者有時間調整可是 可是意味緩升太多的外資會進來 進來 do nothing就等著他升值 以後再出去然後呢 再去買房地產 買股票就會變成泡沫化 這個你擔不擔心"},{"start":5708.226,"end":5732.716,"text":"我想剛剛委員提到匯率我真的不是專家,央行的同仁在這邊你是經濟學博士,你自己人啊沒有,我想匯率的部分假設我們就我個人對這個事情的粗淺了解就是廣場協議是很久以前的那時候的國際的政經的複雜度跟連結度跟現在是完全不同而且美國的態度也沒辦法像當年這樣完全的"},{"start":5733.752,"end":5753.802,"text":"就是跟現在狀況很不一樣當然過去的歷史大家都會好好的去看我想從過去這個幾個月來大家就看到了這個不是第一次被提出來那當然很多的講法都有那是不是歷史會重演其實我覺得這個事情都要我時間到了我再做幾個comment"},{"start":5755.851,"end":5783.251,"text":"廣場協議那時候是英法美德四個國家去打一個日本現在是川普打世界其他國家是不一樣的這是第一個不一樣第二個我們都知道現在來講川普希望美元強勢的要走弱長期走弱這個對其他國家都有深植的壓力其實我就是問你一個小問題你結束了我就下去"},{"start":5784.454,"end":5812.049,"text":"你贊成反省還是一事到位沒有我覺得這個我們沒辦法預期啦但是你這樣說就沒有給我答案了你就是給我一個爽快的答案你prefer你prefer我沒辦法prefer他應該有可能是環扁有可能未來就是很難預測我覺得這個我們都要有兩方的想法昨天那一位是現在是大公司大集團的董事長以前當過金控的董事長"},{"start":5812.489,"end":5834.674,"text":"那也是一家公司啦我就不要講他名字了大家都看到他講的時候緩身我嚇一跳緩身就鼓勵熱情慢慢進來台灣然後造成我們的股市泡沫我們的黃市泡沫要很小心耶當然我們隨時都保持警戒跟小心謝謝市長 謝謝委員謝謝接著請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":5849.172,"end":5850.672,"text":"主席有請彭主委請彭主委委員早安主委好主委我想今天還是就較於這個中頂的問題因為我辦公室這邊有特別是對中頂的這個財報去了解才發現中頂這個孫公司控股公司在投所謂的中頂美國"},{"start":5875.12,"end":5885.544,"text":"這個部分基本上對這家孫公司的資源非常的多不論是資金給予83億之外去年增資了31億總體投資又超過56億"},{"start":5890.166,"end":5918.129,"text":"然後在去年認賠的情況底下認賠16億的情況底下還繼續增資31億甚至呢在今年的第一季的財報當中呢還對這一個客戶端違約的部分的這一家能源公司也就是說他的子公司就是建造這個升值柴油廠的子公司還答應他要重整重整的部分有一些股東的特別條款之外還提供22.5億喔"},{"start":5919.75,"end":5928.157,"text":"也就是他回來回收的不過是45億他還要投資22.5億下去那總體來說我們在上週提到這個問題的時候中頂的合併資產的總金額當中196億佔了15.7佔了15.7這對財務有一定程度的一個挑戰結果他回收來45億又要投入22.5億那原來這個工程是228億結果呢總共投入變250億"},{"start":5949.754,"end":5977.342,"text":"這好像看起來是無底洞啦無底洞說財報當中有很多誇張的地方我再去跟您說明一下這他財報當中寫的說工程只有採完工的百分比的進行認列的方式也就是所謂的里程碑付款的方式做到多少拿多少但事實上他完工了百分之百他只拿到百分之二十啦對啊這付款條件很清楚不合理啦對啊這個工資勢力很顯然出問題嘛"},{"start":5978.544,"end":6000.63,"text":"我講到這邊主委你有沒有這樣的感覺我想上週委員就關心這個議題我也承諾說要請交易所跟我們那個政局要仔細了解這部分當然這裡面有兩個層面一個是公司經營的層面雖然我們是上市櫃公司的就是主管機關但是我們對他不是像金融機構一樣這種所謂的"},{"start":6002.611,"end":6023.182,"text":"有這麼多的接力我們主要是針對像證交法36條第三項你有沒有如實的去針對剛剛講的委員提到那個重大的訊息還有合理性他很顯然已經違反公司治理的一個那個治理原則而且你去看喔這個整個他的子公司的這個總經理高層一直在變動"},{"start":6024.503,"end":6052.796,"text":"相繼的辭職你給他 給這個獨厚儀PKRF這個深植燃油廠的這個公司之後呢總經理就辭職了後來找了一個又辭職就是很清楚嘛 很異常你要去看喔 他在投資下去的22.5億當中呢這是有追加投資異常的現象啊如果追加投資異常的現象可能會導致什麼結果呢一來 工程的這個洗錢的可能性"},{"start":6053.615,"end":6065.534,"text":"第二個呢 按盤是一個分立的可能性第三 私下酬庸的這個可能性這都有啊你不要等到事情發生了才造成這個投資人的損失啊"},{"start":6067.425,"end":6088.987,"text":"當然剛才講說我們在資本市場的管理有它一定的強度範圍那剛才跟委員報告過那剛才講說這部分如果說細節的部分我可以請那個張局長跟我們說明好 局長可以來講一下交易所調查的結果局長跟交易所回答之前這件事情已經積欠上百億了中頂過去都沒有寫說未預期而且呢"},{"start":6090.174,"end":6109.357,"text":"整個違反百分之百認列的模式在財報上來都沒有披露這有沒有涉及到這個財報不實跟委員報告這個財報的部分交易所已經全面去查核他的狀況當然在一個禮拜都會有初步的看頭才會一個禮拜就會有結果是不是"},{"start":6110.858,"end":6124.465,"text":"因為股票連跌四次引起投資人的恐慌今天投保中心的董事長要來嗎 杜董事長你上來一下董事長董事長 我就教於您中頂我們都有持股對不對"},{"start":6132.296,"end":6152.447,"text":"我沒有不是你啦好像是你們投保中心今天有沒有派人去投保有今天有沒有派人去今天有今天已經派了四位同仁去有四位同仁去有沒有發問有我們已經準備了一個清單什麼清單我們在質問他問題站在投資人保護的立場你今天早上九點的股東大會你有沒有上場去問"},{"start":6153.027,"end":6175.54,"text":"有,我們之前在上禮拜五就已經發函給鐘鼎鐘鼎在昨天就已經回函給我們一些問題針對他的回函我們今天又再追加了一些問題請他在股東會上股東說明好,那你所問到的這些內容當中就是跟證交所還有包括政情局會診一下要以招供信,你請回,你有進入狀況"},{"start":6176.941,"end":6201.804,"text":"那另外一個部分呢 主委我要問一下齁這個其實你們花一個禮拜的時間去查齁這總統的跡象來顯示出來這個治理上出現了很多問題不論是內控的審計制度的問題或企業風險的問題或合約履約管理的問題子公司管理的問題或資訊透明度的問題啊每個面向都有問題啊這問題這麼多的情況底下欸 那個獨斗難道沒有看到這些問題嗎"},{"start":6203.206,"end":6229.578,"text":"也就是說政經局要求交易所去查這件事情的時候也應該把獨董的責任跟角色了解清楚剛剛有委員提到就是我們對於投保中心對於獨董的這些的角色還有他的責任釐清也有做這個說明委員報導我們剛才的我們是禮拜五的發函也有給獨董所以我們今天在股東會上如果有必要我們會詢問獨董"},{"start":6230.779,"end":6251.614,"text":"當然也要問清楚啊 四個獨董都非常大咖的獨董如果獨董不失任 主委你請回到備詢台如果不失任的話 之前我就要求過所以獨董的角色之所以這麼關鍵賦予這麼重要的角色跟任務就是要讓公司治理得以落實嘛如果沒有辦法辦理這種角色的時候就應該變成黑名單嘛 是不是 主委"},{"start":6255.587,"end":6277.783,"text":"那我想我們會因為這個事實還在釐清當中因為我們也不適合在公開講說我們要對誰究責但是制度在那邊我們就會來處理我就針對制度而已嘛如果查有類似情勢的產生那就應該列入黑名單的考量對 如果說我們現在對獨立董事的資格要求就有這樣的話那我們就會按照這來處理"},{"start":6278.824,"end":6305.239,"text":"督董是做一個內部監督很重要的關鍵但是有一個東西你還沒有辦法執行的就是影子董事更大的麻煩今天就跟你談公司治理嘛在去年7月22號的時候杜絕大股東職權不服亂象主要大股東就是影子董事要拼下個會期修法已經一年了咧主委我這邊提醒你一下"},{"start":6306.44,"end":6312.495,"text":"你去年的時候就踢過說去年的下會期就是去年底的時候要拚下會期修法嘛"},{"start":6313.374,"end":6341.905,"text":"後來我看你法案也沒有送出來對 因為這個確實我們原來條文我們內部擬過很多版本但是呢我們就覺得這裡面還要再更周延我們最近又在會因為昨天在我們記者會對外說明說我們包括幾個重點我們大概都已經對外說明了我們未來會朝什麼方向來擬我們會盡快的提出我們的草案送行政院我跟你說 獨董那個主委你要快一點有這個影子懂事的產生的存在"},{"start":6342.665,"end":6363.584,"text":"就沒有所謂的公司治理的可能啊如果影子董事都可以存在在外面指揮的話有權無責的話那何來的公司治理不是嗎對 是沒錯所以我在上面已經也有揭露兩個非常重要的原則第一個就是一定要權責相輔不能夠有權的人無責那有責的人卻是要承擔這個"},{"start":6365.005,"end":6392.625,"text":"這是一個很簡單的公司治理的很原則第二個就是說所有的決策都是透明的那透明當然不是說都公開都有跡可循你要拚行政院之前假設你現在新年現在已經到接下來就六月了嘛你至少再拚個下會期修法或這會期要送進來下會期修法你至少一個工作目標嘛這本來就是我們預計的這個時程對 是的影視董事存在老實講我個人理解的部分還算普遍"},{"start":6394.266,"end":6409.237,"text":"其實應該傳聞不斷耶對 其實我們已經朝這個方向來努力啦因為很多其實不只這個 我們還有其他的部分可是你的方向 你的方向的修法方向又如同之前的黃錢主委一樣停留在只有罰款的部分嗎因為他之前是要獻權我們會從整個更制度面來看徵責一種是獻權 一種是徵責一個就是說徵責就包括處罰"},{"start":6420.01,"end":6435.297,"text":"那當然 罰則是一定有的 否則你訂那個規定呢如果說沒有明確的罰則 那個規定是沒有用麻煩一下 希望透過你的法制面的努力能夠把這一個飲食董事杜絕啦 好不好當然 這是我們努力的方向好 接下來問最後一個問題"},{"start":6436.88,"end":6451.135,"text":"最近的這個央行在升息的時候會帶動這個貸款方的一個利息成本然後呢但是隨著這個調動在之前第七波之前都是同比例的成長"},{"start":6452.253,"end":6471.821,"text":"但是我發現在第七波的信用管制之後五大銀行的乘坐的購屋的利率卻異常的偏高起來這個偏高的方向已經開始增加從這個連續去年九個月去年九月央行明明有升息但是貸款的利息卻不斷的攀升"},{"start":6473.402,"end":6493.332,"text":"李唐是逐步成長現在逐漸攀升的情況已經接近0.1這種資金成本的部分會造成房貸利款利率不斷增加我認為接下來對這個購屋族來說是一種額外的負擔甚至會造成這個斷頭如果說你說看起來好像是以量治價但是卻是"},{"start":6494.512,"end":6517.437,"text":"銀行自行圖利嘛但是卻造成一些市場的亂象主委你這要不要去注意一下這個其實我們對這個房貸啊我們從去年開始有這個應該是去年這個信用管制以後我們就幾乎每週在控管這些內容我想說這部分再像比如說我們也看到我們現在的房貸的餘放現在是0.080.9成喔那個"},{"start":6521.378,"end":6542.912,"text":"那個九升是因為我們最近的存款的那個成長沒那麼高啦就是因為分母的關係我想這個零點零幾之間那個些微已經不具有統計的顯著性了我只是說這個相對我們現在還是很低而且我們所有不動產都有提列1.5%的壞帳那等於說如果這樣反算大概20倍喔就是實際上我們其實銀行在做這件事情的時候其實已經非常謹慎的在做"},{"start":6544.853,"end":6570.732,"text":"這個部分是這樣即使我們的建築融資也只有0.16那實際上是一個非常非常低的這個水準那如果假設1.5來算也差不多十倍的安全啦所以我只說這個我們都在嚴格監控利率確實剛剛從委員講的確實有可能是因為最近是真的可能二字頭以下是看不到了啦但是上面的話大家是確實我們要確保幾件事情在"},{"start":6571.84,"end":6590.85,"text":"因為這個信用管制不是我們在但是我們要確保我們的房貸能夠順利的供應民生需要這是我們金管會會來會來努力除了量之外不應該讓他負起負擔太大不要用以價自量的這種概念當中來增加那個貸款戶的一個負擔我主要是做這樣的提醒我們會來關注這個議題好麻煩主委費心謝謝謝謝請宗嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":6612.95,"end":6621.438,"text":"主席 下場委員先進 列席的政府監事長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請金管會彭主委好 請彭主委委員長"},{"start":6626.297,"end":6653.447,"text":"主委今天來跟您請教一個有點歷史的問題因為我個人在學校大學是念歷史好來回顧一下2020年五年前高鐵公司疫情當年度大發鼓勵這個時間寫得很清楚2020年初已經有疫情了但是到了三月的時候高鐵要配息給股東1.22元連三年創新高結果要發多少要發69億"},{"start":6655.94,"end":6677.997,"text":"這個幫你回顧一下當年這個情況但是下一頁結果過一個星期高鐵公司宣布說暫緩他們本來在前一年度宣布的在2019年宣布說我們2020年員工要調薪因為COVID-19所以呢暫時不實施結果那時候我就被工會找上了"},{"start":6679.827,"end":6690.854,"text":"高鐵當年發高額鼓勵卻暫緩調薪,員工認為是瘦小肥大,肥了小員工,肥了大股東。請問,當高鐵當年這樣做的時候,你認為合理嗎?"},{"start":6697.95,"end":6718.587,"text":"我想這個案子可能委員比較清楚,中間可能不是這麼簡單,不過我覺得就是以這是兩件事情,一個是針對股東,一個是針對員工可能那個狀況我這邊不便評論,因為我沒辦法知道他所有的來,我再舉例,我們公司治理啦,2019年公司大賺錢嘛"},{"start":6720.182,"end":6735.871,"text":"那大賺錢到隔年才會發放股利嘛所以對股東來講我在2019年我買了你高鐵高價的股票我就期待你高鐵當年大賺錢之後隔年我發放股利同樣的高鐵當年的員工他領的薪水比較少"},{"start":6736.531,"end":6753.801,"text":"但是公司大賺錢他當然希望兩個第一個當年的年終獎金發多一點第二個公司承諾獎金沒有發那麼多但是我來年更好我給你調薪因為獎金只有一年調薪上去之後你年年薪水都提高你是高鐵員工你當然希望說來年會怎樣調薪調高一點"},{"start":6756.423,"end":6768.865,"text":"可是股東到了第二年COVID-19了高鐵整個盈餘盪下來你覺得高鐵這時候前年的盈餘他是要保留下來度過寒冬還是趕快給去年高價買高鐵股票的股東鼓勵發一發"},{"start":6770.131,"end":6798.019,"text":"我想這跟行業別也不太一樣假設他今天是有個資本是逐利的這樣那個行業那實際上他有個資本成本在裡面他就要好好想這件事情如果他是一個本身來講牽涉他未來的預來判斷因為本來事業經營就有上有下這個對股東而言股東不會是你永續股東他可能今年參與明年參與但是員工可能也不太一樣我說這個其實行業不同其實有很大很大不同是 您說到重點了股東跟員工高鐵要照顧誰"},{"start":6799.119,"end":6825.536,"text":"同樣道理 受險公司他有兩個對象一個是保護 一個是什麼 股東好啦 我們來看一下台幣增值重創保險業的RVC還能發放股利嗎後來高鐵經過我們這樣呼籲之後呢他意思意思啦 本來要發1.22的 他發1.21啦他的股利呢 少發了5572萬少發了5000多萬可能呢 後來列入資本公積但是今年我們受險業 欸前幾年 現在已經合訂了喔"},{"start":6830.861,"end":6843.987,"text":"是不是受益要保留銀彈不要去年把股息發放出去主委您的看法您說要審慎思考對不對對確實審慎思考您的決定是怎樣您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":6844.983,"end":6864.411,"text":"一樣,就是說其實上我們受險公司他在發放鼓勵的時候,如果各位有注意到的話帳面跟實質能發的,即便是太平的時候,我們也不是說比如說你這帳面上一百的淨利就能夠發一百,不是,我們現在大概的CAP大概是定在20%原則上是這樣,本來就很保守了"},{"start":6865.011,"end":6878.158,"text":"那再來的話其實在發現金的時候上一次在會期的時候也有委員質詢這件事情我們確實也請他們審慎的思考因為為什麼總體經營你當時在發放鼓勵可能很早前就決定了甚至都要"},{"start":6879.226,"end":6907.754,"text":"都要經過股東大會的決議但是現在有些我們社群公司有分兩大類一個是獨立的公司一個是金控下面金控下面已經沒有股東大會他隨時可以決定他是用董事會來代替嘛所以這裡面的話我們就也有跟他講說如果這個部分你要不要再審慎考慮確實有一家他就說好我考慮了我就好這是一種道德的勸說那另外一個呢其實在金控下面的子公司他發放鼓勵的不是這家社群公司發言那個是他有"},{"start":6908.294,"end":6935.221,"text":"母公司的持股啊對所以他們其實我們知道監控法53條有個強制增資的義務所以監控公司的那個那個顧慮可能跟一般獨立公司不太一樣所以他們經過審慎評估因為前面已經大概有20%的保守的這樣一個發放以後再來他其實上有上面還有監控那個那個那個那個層次還有加上法定增資的義務呢他們仔細考慮過而且金額也沒有很大所以他們大概還是決定我覺得所以你講的很周延啦簡單講啦"},{"start":6938.055,"end":6963.732,"text":"授權公司背後上面的金控如果授權公司賺錢是回饋上面的母公司嘛他虧錢也要增資啊對 虧錢要公司但是如果他虧錢不增資賺錢要回饋母公司這樣是不是就不對的對 但是因為這是金控法無三條強制增資的義務他沒有選擇是 那我們要等著看那些RBC資本市主力不足的有沒有強制增資我們看一下來 您過去常常提到授權公司有兩個一個是保險監督公司治理保險"},{"start":6966.051,"end":6993.888,"text":"監理呢有檢查報表然後呢要人身保險業資本市租率的報告要填去相當的表格以便呢 接軌我們ICS新一代的清償能力但是在公司這裡不能拿到的財務報表呢未來要接軌IFS-7還要加上你們金管會規定的保險業財務報告的編制準則請問一下這兩者投射到我們保護跟我們的那個股東好 來下一頁這個講到IFS-7IFS-7真的是那麼一定"},{"start":6995.173,"end":7021.554,"text":"放諸四海都接準嗎?你認為我們未來接個IFAS-7,每個國家都要用嗎?當然這個因為基本上IFAS的話是我們在國際上最共通的一個,但是也不是所有好,不是所有的國家都要用好,那是不是所有的行業都要用公平性?那是一個基本的原則那授權業適合嗎?我想這個看公平性的定義是什麼?就以字面來看當然是每個授權公司都要用,還是說有的公司,產權業用授權業不用?"},{"start":7022.642,"end":7045.284,"text":"那就是公平性看就像比如說我們民法上呈現原則我想大家都不會反對啦好但是你說到一個還有一致性不能前後矛盾但是一致性呢在2023年就發生過重分類嘛這2022年嘛對不對那時候原來訂的是OCI後來改列為AC這樣子當年2022年的時候保險公司很多大型公司才因此而逃過了"},{"start":7046.206,"end":7058.141,"text":"那是一個美國大幅快速升息對 聯準會英式升息我們都說暴力升息但是這樣的改分類有沒有前後一致改分類之後它的流動性可改變啊"},{"start":7061.123,"end":7076.72,"text":"這個其實它這樣分類也是符合IFAS的精神只是它的過程當中 本來IFAS就允許你們公司經營模式的改變但是只是說在那個當下可能認為說這個時機上這是歷史案子那我們來看一下"},{"start":7077.521,"end":7094.648,"text":"社會協議院的財務報表沒有辦法正確的反映什麼反映它保險業的特性嘛我們人壽保險我們產品週期長因此保險公司要做投資保留一些未實現的資產來應付未來的償付能力是不是這樣子是的所以我們人生社會協議院你看過去的海外投資高達七成這也是目前我們雙綠 匯綠"},{"start":7097.029,"end":7118.409,"text":"跟利率對我們台灣的本國社會經濟造成衝擊的影響好 那我們往下看那麼如果顧及清償能力跟股價呢你的檢查報表要看它資本數值率這才是未來的保護長期的清償能力但是短期內你要年度截清年度截清剛剛講到了如果有可觀獲利維持高檔股價還有發放股利現在剛剛前面幾位委員問到了6月30號"},{"start":7120.231,"end":7147.838,"text":"那一個日期財報怎麼定?您說有人說要從前半年的日均價主委您看法呢?就是說剛才講的話就是如果說我們從剛才講假設按照像委員非常非常的清楚剛才兩個分頁一個叫監理會計的範疇的話我們是看的是它的報表所顯示的是未來清償能力的比較接近未來長期有沒有清償能力這時候我們就不會看單點所以我們在股票的時候就是用均價來衡量"},{"start":7148.758,"end":7176.674,"text":"比較能衡量它長期的其實因為它的持股它是不會大部分都不會變賣的所以用一個均價來衡量但是呢因為我們現在會計準則它就希望每天每天反映相關的資訊所以它特別著重幾個時間點就是月底的月報比如半年的6月3012月31號的年報實際上就以實質來看這幾個時間點並沒有什麼特別的意義只是會計方法原則上大概就公定那一天所以它就以那一天的反映那常常會"},{"start":7177.614,"end":7202.013,"text":"捕捉到一個不是一個全貿一樣所以剛才講委員你問說以長期經營觀點的話我們剛才有委員問說是否我們未來有考慮用軍價的概念我們剛才說我們朝這個方向來思考這是兩件事情嘛對 但財報的部分因為牽涉到各行各業那可能就不太一致我記得主委過去曾經說長期的清償能力你是用過去來預測未來這不可能的"},{"start":7202.677,"end":7221.429,"text":"你拿照後鏡不能看到前面的風景用照後鏡開車蠻危險那你怎麼去我們金管會作為監理機關怎麼去預估判斷他未來的清償能力然後我們現在的股票股市大眾他要看的是股價他要看的是你的公司的財報那怎麼平衡你們的做法怎麼做"},{"start":7221.989,"end":7233.134,"text":"這也是我們在整個台灣這麼獨特的受險業它所必須要面對的一個挑戰因為確實這套財報制度如果以這樣的衡量各位就可以看到那個波動會非常的大"},{"start":7234.185,"end":7258.213,"text":"因為他主要是很大的部位的未實現損益會進入他的損益表裡面就剛才講是評價的問題但是一般投資人可能用一般產業來看那他的比如說他的損益的數字這麼壞大概就做出很不好的判斷或是看他損益這麼好就做出很好的判斷其實上這是一個會計制度跟這個行業特性之間所形成的一個關係所以主委最後一個你要"},{"start":7259.401,"end":7286.42,"text":"講出你的謎底了啦這些保險業的未實現資產透過財報到了我們金管會除了看我們會計公報之外是不是金管會還有一個保險業財務報告編制準則你們如何透過這個編制準則去調整這個長期跟眼前的這兩個矛盾是不是說為了要採取半年的均價又或者是說過去三年他們的保費獲利創高那麼怎麼樣去限制他的股利發放請問金管會有沒有一個很清楚的一個立場"},{"start":7287.473,"end":7305.16,"text":"其實我們現在還在努力溝通中,剛才講說保險業財務報告編準的原則上是應該是follow IFAS的精神,因為它本來是編制財報用的但是我們剛才講那個RBC的填報手冊或是未來的ICS這個部分是有另外一套的方式來計算所以今晚會對這個資金填到?"},{"start":7306.781,"end":7324.486,"text":"但是那個財務業務報告編準則也是一個我們法定的工具啦這是我們也來想想看因為這需要社會共識因為這牽涉到各行各業本質上金管會又是財報的主管機關財報準則主管機關所以這部分呢我們就要我們會做出一個研究後的結果"},{"start":7325.605,"end":7348.687,"text":"我們要更審慎來因應這個問題只會有一個結果希望能夠在剛才講我已經提到那個很專業的兩個能夠平衡好那最後還是問你那你覺得這種情況下現行的壽險業要不要放股利我覺得剛才提過了假設很多人以為說他今年帳面多少就發多少我剛才已經解釋過了他已經有一個已經頂多只有兩成的這個額度之內再來呢"},{"start":7350.208,"end":7375.835,"text":"他們又是假設在金控下面的話那實際上金控本來就保證的義務我覺得由他們專業來判斷我們已經提醒過他提醒過他他不要試圖的要迎合市場大眾的需求讓大家有誤解或者說發放很多的鼓勵所以最後的結論就是說請研議衛食授權業的財務報表吻合其衛食線資產的特性那保險業的財務報告編制準的調整方向是不是可以一個月內給我們一個書面的一個說明"},{"start":7376.795,"end":7382.538,"text":"我可以給委員一個比較完整的說明好 謝謝主席也謝謝主委好 謝謝嘉賓接著請林思明委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請那個彭主委好 請彭主委"},{"start":7401.735,"end":7415.954,"text":"主委早主委早我想主委針對今天我們來針對我們金融國際業務條例還有證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法的相關的修正"},{"start":7416.735,"end":7440.342,"text":"我想看過你的報告還有財政部也有做報告相關的行政院的整個修正的草案我想我是可以支持的是沒有太大的意見我今天就針對限控令的退場還有普發現金還有融資專法來救教主委首先就針對限控令的退場"},{"start":7441.522,"end":7466.419,"text":"我想主委在上週我們台股終止五連紅加上金管會宣布在星期一就這個26號這個限控令退場我想投資人擔心的是說你台股震盪的還在震盪的一個走勢那麼加上川普總統他時常的變臉而且他是再度的變臉"},{"start":7468.903,"end":7495.278,"text":"他宣示說在6月起要將對歐盟課徵高達50%的關稅燒燒降溫的關稅又發爐了甚至還預告可能對iPhone還有對半導體加稅導致全球資本市場立刻風聲鶴唳但是金管會卻選在這個時候把這個保險傘收起來宣布限控令退場"},{"start":7496.735,"end":7517.175,"text":"那所以我想請問為何選在這個時機點也就是說我們看起來整個這個關稅的政策還是不確定啊川普的關稅政策然後整個我們看到現在股市的走勢還是在震盪啊甚至有往下的一個趨勢那現在來解除是不是雨天收傘啊"},{"start":7518.496,"end":7540.13,"text":"為什麼選擇這個時機?這個喔,也跟委員報告我們做這個不是臨時起義我想我們也觀察過過去我們兩個最重要的穩定股市措施比如說一個就是金管會針對非理性因素的這些暫行措施這個期間都不長"},{"start":7541.03,"end":7565.819,"text":"我們平均的時間大概就1.5個月左右過去這麼多次因為這是一個會每天時時會影響市場機制的動作我們主要是針對不理性的這樣一個行為回想今天的情況跟4月2號到4月7號狀況有沒有相同應該是很大的不同再來就是說其實上我也特別重申就是說金管會是一個資本市場的主管機關"},{"start":7567.119,"end":7593.18,"text":"某種程度來講的話我們是針對擾亂市場機制的這個突發狀況來進行這個所謂的調整那但是這個工具我們隨時都可以做不需要比如說開會那另外一個我剛才講的就是像我們的國安基金它必須有一套的程序那是不一樣的所以我的意思是說我們市場要盡早的回歸到市場機制這個讓市場去看就像"},{"start":7594.622,"end":7611.561,"text":"昨天兩天疊很多人就說雨天說那如果今天又漲起來又怎麼說就像我們在做這個判斷我們不知道川普下一秒會說什麼就像我即使延後我也不知道他會說什麼這個就是我們要隨時因應這個不確定性所以主委所以你是從基於說你是這個"},{"start":7614.197,"end":7627.794,"text":"這個期限你認為不宜太久這樣聽起來可能要回歸市場機制不能太不宜太久當時的時空就像我們可以看就是說因為我們這個措施本來就是一個暫行不會是一個常態性的因為我們市場"},{"start":7629.015,"end":7653.456,"text":"剛才有委員提到我大概知道你的意思那我問你一下就是說因為你當時4月7號採行的限空令有救世三支箭對但是我們現在看到你是把兩支箭現在已經回復了就限空令拿掉另外一支箭就是調整回復每日盤中借券賣出委託數量以及最低榮券保證金的乘數但是你仍維持最後一支箭"},{"start":7654.016,"end":7677.232,"text":"就多元擔保品的補繳融資自備款或融券保證金額的差額措施這是最後一支件你又保留那為什麼保留最後一支件就等於說我們本來就是我們假設你融資的時候你要提供擔保品過去我們有一些規定說比如說你的擔保品只有ABC三種但是我們發現其實你可以做擔保品的東西在那個特別的情況下"},{"start":7678.473,"end":7696.769,"text":"不是只有這三種而已那我們可以假設在臨時的情況比如說零股也可以或是債券也可以比如這樣但是因為這是臨時性加進來但是做了以後發現這個可行我沒有必要把它拿走因為這是為什麼?券商自己決定說我要融資給他的時候我希望有個什麼對我的擔保"},{"start":7697.99,"end":7714.738,"text":"那個已經做了以後呢當然就保留不會說因為這個就把它抽那假設我們現在正在正在做人那不是很奇怪所以我們就說好那就這樣的話那就希望你把他這個東西把它常態化但是那個法規要做一些調整就我你沒有回答我的問題我說你最後一支箭啊"},{"start":7715.578,"end":7737.452,"text":"那當初就是保留最後一支箭,當時曾麒麒他當時是表示說,訂定這個這樣的一個措施是因為當時的狀況緊急恐有規定有不明確,他自己也問曾麒麒,你自己也聲稱說這個規定恐怕有不明確的疑慮,會跟證交所研擬確確的規範"},{"start":7739.794,"end":7757.586,"text":"那目前研擬出來了嗎現在我們很快的就會請交易所跟櫃買去把這個訂出因為主要是券商說那我其實所以你這個都是很臨時的去想出來的所以你現在退場的時候這一支件你還保留"},{"start":7758.506,"end":7782.474,"text":"所以我們是不是還沒準備好啊現在很多人一支箭你拿掉這一支箭你又保留這個跟那個情況很不一樣我想我可以再找時間再跟委員做說明主委我想時間很關係其實我的意思是說我們希望說如果要把這個三支箭同時就是拿掉依照現在目前的情勢我還是希望那個金管會你要做更審慎的評估啦"},{"start":7782.934,"end":7809.944,"text":"我們隨時都拿掉這個投資人他們這個疑慮很大其實我們就是這個一定遲早要退場遲早是一定要退場的因為我們怎麼選擇可能要更謹慎一點沒有我們的市場本來就是應該因為我們我再三重申台灣的股票市場已經二三十年不一樣台灣是一個國際上非常重要的資本市場我們所有的運作的方式要盡量跟國際對接OK 謝謝"},{"start":7813.386,"end":7826.561,"text":"來 針對普發現金啊 主委我想上市上位公司的股票如果要這個上漲投資人要獲利 業績是不是很重要那當然他是來自他的損益啊是一個非常關鍵的一個因素嘛"},{"start":7827.625,"end":7856.508,"text":"那我們看在2023年政府普發六千元現金的時候當時有人力銀行他們所做的民調結果顯示有七成的企業認為說普發現金對當年的業績有幫助同時也有網路媒體調查民眾領到現金後的十大用途為何時其中排名第五大的用途就是小額投資也就是包含買股票"},{"start":7857.429,"end":7876.336,"text":"所以主委 主計總處與財政部是堅持反對普發現金但主要是因為他們不必理會股市的漲跟跌他不必在乎民眾的投資是否有獲利但是站在金管會的角色金管會是負有股市心事的一個責任"},{"start":7877.777,"end":7898.477,"text":"所以我們看先前普發六千元現金的時候企業與民眾的反應所以金管會你是否會贊成我們在野黨所提的普發現金一萬元這樣的一個我想這個問題真的不是金管會所能夠評論的事情這個真的不是跟我們有"},{"start":7899.838,"end":7924.67,"text":"主委你不適合評論我知道我是說我剛才講已經把前提告訴你了嘛因為你負有股市心事的一個責任嘛對但是我們有很多種方法站在你的立場當然財政部或主席還有他的立場就我剛才跟你講的這樣的一個角度跟立場你認為這個可能對股市的心力是有幫助的喔當然站在你的一個主管機關的一個立場跟角度你是否應該贊成啊"},{"start":7925.931,"end":7952.502,"text":"其實市場上所謂的我們市場講所謂利多利空的因素非常的多並不是所有利多的因素我們站在金管會就要支持我想也不是所有利空我們就要反對因為我們的金管會不是在做指數的這個我們不關心這個我們關心這個市場是否安全是否公平是否穩健所以這個我都認同但是我只是說就這個點來看的話"},{"start":7954.423,"end":7981.214,"text":"因為這個對普發現金對整個企業的業績也是會有所幫助的嘛這個都是基於實質調查的嘛那對民眾去投資股市也是有所注意的嘛所以從這一點我是認為金管會從你的一個股市心事的一個角色上面你似乎可以大膽的說啦其實這個政策是可以支持的"},{"start":7982.314,"end":8007.896,"text":"這樣的做法是可以支持的這我想我還是沒辦法回答還是沒辦法回答委員這個問題所以我再問你就是說融資公司法上週在草友會的融資公司法的公聽會中陳彥霖副主委他提出幾點理由表示反對設立專法第一個理由是認為融資公司並沒有吸收大眾的資金因此清償能力不足以產生金融風暴的問題主委"},{"start":8009.537,"end":8036.852,"text":"所謂的大眾你的定義是什麼就是說其實很多人誤以為跟錢有關就是金管會我想這是一個全世界在金融監理一個非常重要的一個概念為什麼我們要管理銀行為什麼管理保險公司因為保險公司銀行資金是來自於不特定大眾的錢他的經營失敗會對這個社會產生重大的傷害當假設比如說融資公司他的資金來源並不是來自於不特定的大眾"},{"start":8037.853,"end":8054.74,"text":"它主要導致的問題不是這個機構比如說它經營失敗而引發的問題而是它對消費者的行為產生問題像銀行的話它有兩個我們都要管一個是這個機構我要管得牢牢的不能讓它發生事情所以你認為你認定的第一的大眾"},{"start":8058.325,"end":8084.833,"text":"不包含一般的我們的基層的這些人民不是 就是我們不會把錢存到融資公司去啊不是 我現在是講借貸跟融資公司借貸對 融資公司借貸是他的業務行為借貸的大眾他的定義是什麼是不是就一般我們的人民或者是包含學生我們現在看到有學生 有軍人都去跟融資公司借貸不過委員你誤會了這個不叫大眾嗎我說那個機構本身"},{"start":8086.593,"end":8107.556,"text":"他為什麼錢可以帶給一般民眾,他錢從哪裡來?如果錢從一般民眾來的話,不特定大眾來的話,這個單位一定要嚴格的管理,就像銀行保險公司一樣。但如果說這個錢是他自己的錢,就像我們的當鋪,我們的很多,他的錢如果說他今天去借給別人,是要管這個行為有沒有不公平。"},{"start":8111.659,"end":8132.517,"text":"融資公司他的錢不是很大一部分都來自於跟我們的金融業者所借的嗎但是他是法人不是對一般不特定的大眾所以我們不會把錢可能我現在講的點跟你講的有點對不上我一直講說所謂的大眾我是講說這個跟融資公司借貸的這些民眾"},{"start":8133.197,"end":8160.147,"text":"因為我為什麼要提出這個問題就是說你們一直反對設專法一直反對設專法沒有我們沒有反對專法其實我們現在就是用專法來管理你說這個可能這個這個依照目前融資公司的借貸問題還不足以造成金融風暴所以我就很好奇這個依照陳主委的說法這是一個消費爭議發生了金融風暴才要立法嗎對"},{"start":8161.067,"end":8176.465,"text":"金融風暴意思比如說銀行倒了保險公司倒了民眾受到很大的影響現在都是消費爭議我們看到案例就是說這個廣告不實明明跟我講說只有10%的利率為什麼最後收這麼多錢"},{"start":8178.627,"end":8195.176,"text":"為什麼我只有一台三十萬的車為什麼你可以借我一百萬你為什麼沒有做到你的公關車主委我的意思為什麼是立專法我意思是從保障消費者的角度來做這個立法來做考量啦所以我希望能夠立專法啦"},{"start":8196.296,"end":8210.622,"text":"這樣才能夠真正不是只有管理這些我們所謂的這些融資公司而已那如何讓整個消費借貸向融資公司借貸有更合理的一個專法能夠來去做規範保障我們整個消費者的權益這個比較重要"},{"start":8214.944,"end":8243.509,"text":"我同意委員就是大家的目的都一樣要保護受到不公平對待的客戶我想主委我最後就是建議說希望金管會要再次的審慎的考量設立專法的必要性現在就是在專法管理了現在我們就朝著只是那個形式不是說單獨立一部法律我們是用法律層次的東西而且是用金融機構的程度來管理他們好我們私下再聊好了沒問題我再跟委員報告謝謝"},{"start":8244.289,"end":8244.729,"text":"主委早"},{"start":8267.979,"end":8291.646,"text":"主委面對未來這幾年的國際金融環境金管會長里的銀行業務跟保險業務有什麼方向及風險可不可以請主委簡單說明這個問題非常非常地廣泛我想第一個其實不同行業他所面對到的風險不太一樣不過未來的變動性變大這件事情是所有的金融機構都必須面對的我們以"},{"start":8292.766,"end":8313.603,"text":"比如說銀行為例 那未來假設關稅或是這些國際貿易上面導致經濟下行的話那當然對他的貸款未來的這些的這個業務推動還有甚至未來的比如說這個還款的能力都會產生影響我想這部分是我們要看的"},{"start":8314.324,"end":8328.394,"text":"那另外一個就是假設保險業剛剛很多委員指教的非常的多假設今天是因為利率匯率跟股市這些波動呢都會讓他的一些經營上產生很大的這個壓力這些也都是他們要面對的問題大概是"},{"start":8331.998,"end":8344.836,"text":"未來變動很大,關稅、匯率這些都攸關很多當然受選工會對未來監理有兩項建議第一個就是要增加外匯價格變動準備金的裁員"},{"start":8346.089,"end":8368.928,"text":"那第二個是調整匯率計算方式那我強調就是說我們台灣受險業海外投資的金額高達23兆23.28兆那影響的層面可以說是非常大所以今晚會要做足準備啦讓我們能夠安心啦是 這個我剛才講說金融監理的首要就是市場穩定跟消費信心"},{"start":8369.929,"end":8376.707,"text":"好 再請教主委那配合台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心那研議修正將"},{"start":8378.339,"end":8402.096,"text":"OIU免徵營利事業所得稅、營業稅、印花稅及免予扣繳所得稅之實施時間延長到124年年底12月31日延長OIU租稅優惠到2035年我們先回顧OIU租稅優惠實施的成效評估從你們去年寫的報告"},{"start":8403.417,"end":8416.543,"text":"原預估國內保險公司36家設立OIU但是到112年底為止只有有20家業者包含了產險4家、售險15家、再保險1家獲准設立並開業那達成率只有55.56%所以要請教主委"},{"start":8424.207,"end":8434.607,"text":"這雖然是去年的報告但是也是你們今晚會網站成效最新的一篇報告所以時隔一年那目前這個達成率多少"},{"start":8435.595,"end":8442.701,"text":"大神韻有沒有增加?這個我印象中應該是差不多維持這個數據但是最近應該會有很明顯的改變原因是什麼?困難是什麼?主要的原因是過去這個市場萎縮很快"},{"start":8457.653,"end":8470.784,"text":"這個主要針對外國非本國籍的客戶做境外的客戶那當然就是這部分其實保險公司他有他自己的商業考量但是最近為什麼我剛才講說可能又會活絡為什麼要修這個法律"},{"start":8472.205,"end":8497.504,"text":"是因為我們在推動亞洲資產管理中心希望留財引資希望我們國人流落在海外的或是外國人的這些人能夠來跟我們來做進行金融服務的交易其中保險商品也是一個很重要的點他們看到這個機會了所以他們政策開放所以他們會再來加重這塊的業務所以很多保險公司表達這個意願具體的作為呢就是說去輔導這些還沒設立的業者"},{"start":8499.782,"end":8505.829,"text":"其實因為我們這36家雖然是很多但是真的有能力做的我覺得不見得是全部啦"},{"start":8507.113,"end":8529.295,"text":"所以沒有全部納入啦他都可以來申請但是他自己覺得說比如說我本身就是一個外資公司我就在全世界都做其實我也沒必要做這個還有就是我自己呢在台灣我就做這個本國客戶就好了我也不想做這個主委那我再請教就是說我們看到這個保費收入表現更落後"},{"start":8530.501,"end":8556.19,"text":"受險OIU的保費收入僅達預期的4.65%這是怎麼回事就是剛才講說我們在過去的客戶還有就是他覺得保險公對這個商品對這個市場他們就是慢慢的覺得他們沒有這個需求所以他們就做得少這是他們商業自己判斷的問題那殘險更是更淒慘殘險的收入接近零"},{"start":8558.581,"end":8559.865,"text":"我們的市場規定在這邊那主要來講的話"},{"start":8565.424,"end":8592.862,"text":"那是不是有很多提到什麼原因啊說國際政治與法規的限制啊還有洗錢防治強化啊中國大陸限制資金流動等等那針對這些實務障礙儘管會有哪些具體的策略還有規劃所以說我們的策略之一就是我們這次透過這樣那個亞洲資產管理中心結合OIU OBU OSU一起我們希望打造一個叫OAMU就是境外資產管理"},{"start":8594.463,"end":8615.131,"text":"分公司或分行的概念所以我們因為這個到期了以後呢假設我們開始要推動這個所謂的國家經濟發展政策的時候就失去了這個稅賦的優惠的時候呢我覺得跟國際上的競爭就有很大的差異那我們既然這次呢推亞洲中心希望能夠跟香港新加坡跟其他的"},{"start":8615.891,"end":8628.05,"text":"城市競爭那我們當然就是希望維持這個這個租稅會以前就有只是今年到期了我們希望能夠那個請求大院能夠讓我們通過然後再延長10年"},{"start":8631.307,"end":8651.945,"text":"這個根據報告就是OIU國外債保險費收入達成率57.9%低於預期那主要原因有很多啦有天災損失這個損失率持續攀升國際債保市場價格去硬化還有地緣政治風險日益提高還有近期的利率變動推高的這個資本"},{"start":8653.406,"end":8673.175,"text":"資金成本那導致這些保險業者採取更保守的這個核保策略減少承接高風險業務所以這些因素就是國際局勢還有地緣正式的不確定性讓業者在投資決策上更加嚴謹那既然考量到OIU已有延長到2035年的這個租稅優惠"},{"start":8675.657,"end":8684.315,"text":"這個是租稅優惠是一個重要的誘因但是請問主委說除了這些租稅優惠之外那其他的這個監理配套還有政策配套是什麼"},{"start":8685.767,"end":8708.512,"text":"剛剛提到這些嘛剛剛委員講的真的是非常非常到位就是我們整個的保險市場在國際上它有一個所謂的核保週期就是有時候它會市場上會比較萎縮這個我們說進入到所謂的硬市場他們叫Hard Market通常有發生重大的事故變化以後損率會提高損率提高的市場就開始"},{"start":8709.893,"end":8723.113,"text":"比較難買到保險萎縮但是隨著時間經過他又進入到soft market就跟經濟景氣是一樣的就剛好剛剛委員提到那段時間呢大概就屬於所謂的hard market時代但是這個東西就本來就是一個國際上就會這樣有這樣週期啦"},{"start":8726.444,"end":8734.708,"text":"推動台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心 是我們當然支持OIU的租稅優惠延長就是希望說能夠吸引國際保險業務進駐擴大我國保險業在國際市場的規模跟競爭力 這我們都知道那擔心的就是說"},{"start":8748.234,"end":8763.02,"text":"租稅優惠如果只是減輕稅負層面那無法帶動有效的帶動實際的業務擴張還有投資成長那這樣子的話我們又沒有其他的這種配套措施那租稅優惠淪為單純的一個稅收減免"},{"start":8766.061,"end":8787.466,"text":"那如何確保這些優惠能夠轉化成國內保險業務的長期投資動能跟國際競爭力的實質提升這才是我們想要尋找的答案其實我們剛剛指示的非常對其實我們不是只有租稅租稅是一個最基礎的因為我們是做境外客戶本來就是沒有的那只是說他做了以後本來你沒有他就沒有"},{"start":8788.246,"end":8803.705,"text":"那最重要像比如說剛剛委員說還有什麼措施比如說我們最近就開放了我們保險業可以做一個國際上面可以做的保險商品在OIU做這就是一個我們會未來對接國際上面的這些OIU的產品這就是另外一個策略"},{"start":8804.586,"end":8826.882,"text":"就是說我們會開放新的產品讓他們可以在OIO來做針對外國人或是這些外國的這些資產管理客戶有這個需求我們就看提供這樣的產品我想這個全新的這樣的做法會陸續的推出來對啦 主委我們避免淪為形式上的誘惑那當然的話要具體的做法有效的提升謝謝主委謝謝委員好 謝謝顏康安衡委員現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":8842.619,"end":8871.135,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8904.376,"end":8904.856,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8928.002,"end":8928.022,"text":"蝦子"},{"start":8960.213,"end":8990.043,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8993.317,"end":8998.758,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":9035.498,"end":9035.678,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":9065.332,"end":9067.697,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9085.159,"end":9085.559,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9115.208,"end":9115.508,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":9146.776,"end":9149.177,"text":"這張照片是在2012年10月1日拍攝的"},{"start":9175.12,"end":9175.36,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9207.134,"end":9208.615,"text":"謝謝大家謝謝大家"},{"start":9242.435,"end":9250.419,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":9286.418,"end":9287.84,"text":"蜜蜂"},{"start":9318.198,"end":9318.639,"text":"這裏面是一間餐廳。"},{"start":9358.167,"end":9358.187,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":9381.293,"end":9397.815,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":9400.417,"end":9408.964,"text":"我們進來這邊的另一邊,要把氣水刷進去,但是我們可以小心一點,我們要小心一點,我們要小心一點,我們要小心一點,我們要小心一點,我們要小心一點,"},{"start":9458.696,"end":9458.716,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":9477.793,"end":9477.813,"text":"蠔油"},{"start":9538.84,"end":9538.86,"text":"請坐"},{"start":9556.516,"end":9559.597,"text":"下一質詢請賴會員賴昭緯發言謝謝主席有請金管會主委請彭主委委員好"},{"start":9575.563,"end":9589.48,"text":"是 主委早安這個在上個禮拜我們那個執行有關那個就是代辦的一個詐騙的一個問題那今天其實本席想跟你探討的就是說這個進入這個消費者貸款"},{"start":9592.023,"end":9612.797,"text":"那就是消費者貸款突破了13兆那我們從央行的一個資料裡頭我們就看到了從2015年的7.45兆到今年3月已經突破了13兆那這個就表示說國人的消費那個貸款的金額其實是不是"},{"start":9613.598,"end":9627.827,"text":"很明顯的一直在改變那會不會國人已經進入一個大負債的時代事實上基本上是肯定的那我又從央行跟主計總處的一個資料裡頭我們來看那如果從2015年那個"},{"start":9630.548,"end":9641.518,"text":"總代的額度是7.45兆當時它的GPT是17兆那這一個7.45兆佔了這個GPT的44%可是到了2024年那總代的金額是12.92兆那GPT是25.55兆那佔了51%"},{"start":9652.228,"end":9663.468,"text":"其實我們都看到了就是說這個數字的一個跳動那主委你認為就是說消費者的貸款越來越高是好事還是壞事"},{"start":9665.517,"end":9692.649,"text":"這當然如果說從這個數字來看應該是我們來看數字是往上升消費者貸款就要看他的這些消費者的分佈以及他貸款的形態是什麼那我想這部分我們應該比如說有可能是信用卡或是其他的比如說我們多元支付所產生的這有可能還有就是另外一個就是房貸就是不同的屬性有不一樣的風險屬性"},{"start":9693.789,"end":9712.338,"text":"那我們從這個圓餅圖看得出來,就是說他信用卡的一個行賄信用的一個已額其實才佔了1%然後我們的黃貸佔了86%,房屋的修繕跟汽車的這個房屋修繕其實是零的,汽車的那個貸款是2%"},{"start":9714.039,"end":9740.371,"text":"那林林總總還有個人的一個消費性貸款佔了11%那我們看得出來是黃貸佔了非常重要的一個比例那信貸還有信用卡循環的一個年變的這個變化的一個變化力的一個增加我們看到了就是說我們一直抓出來就是說這個都明顯的一個上升尤其是在疫情疫情這段時間它"},{"start":9742.432,"end":9766.921,"text":"就是當然是會上升可是在2025年其實基本上沒有一個特別的一個狀況2024、2025我們都明顯看到信用貸款的一個上升那主委你認為是什麼原因造成的呢剛剛其實委員剛剛那個圓餅圖裡面就可以看出來其中大部分都是房貸剛剛那個11點多兆就是我們自用住宅的部分"},{"start":9768.106,"end":9795.542,"text":"因為這個當然是看起來是應該就是看起來兩大塊一個是信用卡的部分一個就是我們的房貸的部分因為房貸我想大家都知道最近幾年房地產非常的景氣嘛所以購屋的人也很多那移轉動數也很多貸款也在增加所以去年當然很關心的就是72之二水準那個水位是不是過高還有就是央行也出來做了這個信用管制我想大概都是因為這個很多因素終結起來的"},{"start":9797.963,"end":9818.331,"text":"接著跟主委探討一下在信貸的部分剛好有兩大族群一個是30歲以下一個是61歲以上他們的信貸破了60歲以下有很大的一個數據讓我們很害怕就是說每一個人借到50萬50萬這個人數一直都在創高"},{"start":9821.992,"end":9830.618,"text":"甚至就是說60歲以上成長了146%30歲以下成長了124%這個平均的利率我們看到了從30歲以下當然他的利息那個利率一定是比較高他借到8.3%"},{"start":9843.146,"end":9866.116,"text":"就到8.3 這男生喔 女生的話是8.9那60歲以上的話是5.3跟5.4甚至我們Google進去就是說 你要借貸 那你要投資他很明顯就告訴你說 你要去買ETF因為這個有固定的 你可以領固定的配息"},{"start":9867.236,"end":9889.481,"text":"那61歲以上當然我們知道就是說他可能銀行會跟你講啊你有一筆那個退休的一個基金你可以來做什麼樣什麼樣的一個投資可是30歲以下這些大學生這些年輕人甚至剛進入社會他們面臨到的一個就是觀念投資觀念的一個不正確你看負債比這麼大"},{"start":9891.701,"end":9914.032,"text":"那我們怎麼來講說這個新型債務年輕化的這一個問題呢甚至我們看到了一個非常聳動就是說學生貸你只要有一支手機那普惠幫你完成你的夢想你靠你那支手機你可以借到了一個額度最高15萬那每個月的利息最低是255塊這看起來又好申請"},{"start":9917.153,"end":9929.695,"text":"然後審核又快然後在很快就一個小時就換款了這普惠就是快然後又有隱私那你怎麼看就是新型債務的年輕化呢 主委"},{"start":9930.523,"end":9947.418,"text":"我想這個部分剛剛委員那個資料已經非常非常充分的這樣看出各個年齡層那比如說剛剛各個年齡層現在年輕人呢確實是他在舉在上面看起來是比較積極我想這個相關的內容我可以請童局長給你簡單做個分析"},{"start":9949.881,"end":9965.94,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題那的確我們在過去其實就已經有要求銀行在貸放的部分不管是哪一個年輕族群也好或者是高齡族群我們都有DBR22倍的這個限制也就是他必須要去衡量到他的收入才可以去做對等的消費性貸款"},{"start":9966.881,"end":9987.768,"text":"那另外一個部分就是說委員這個投影片所出示的應該就是委員所關心的有類似所謂的這種貸款的這個中介公司那這個部分上一次有跟委員報告銀行是絕對不能夠有代辦進建的案件之外我們會在那你有沒有感受到有一個類金融有更大的一個"},{"start":9988.988,"end":10013.231,"text":"新型的一個債務風暴其實它正在成形啊你感受得到嗎我們從這麼多的一個數據我列出這麼多的數據給你看你有沒有感受到跟委員報告您提示的這部分我們會加強注意但是在銀行體系的部分銷金的信用如果撇開銀行的部分我們不要來談其實我今天要跟你們談的就是一個新型的一個債務"},{"start":10014.392,"end":10030.382,"text":"它不管是年輕化還是一個龐大的債務其實它正在成形主委我想2005年的卡債風暴這個是把我們整體的一個社會進入一個非常恐慌的時期甚至就是說我們提到了一個案例就是說"},{"start":10031.283,"end":10050.289,"text":"在那幾年有很多人就是虛假殆盡的去那個躲債了跑掉了甚至就是說在台北市還有一戶只因為欠了三百多萬的卡債那六個人有五個人陸續在松山的陳美橋跳河自殺這個造成社會很大的一個震撼"},{"start":10051.869,"end":10077.64,"text":"要跟你探討的就是說你的債務協商你的申請那個消費者債務清理條例然後就在2008他成立了可是我們有沒有去追蹤後續後續我們這些成功力量我們看不到那看不到的時候這個消債條例在上任之初好像顯然是很多人受惠了很多人解決他的債務問題可是後面呢後面這一些問題怎麼辦呢"},{"start":10079.501,"end":10101.21,"text":"我想剛剛委員提的那個2005年那個雙卡風暴那時候引發很多比如說幾乎只要很多學生那就會辦卡辦現金卡辦卡我想在剛剛同學提到了後來其實整個營養體系痛定思痛針對整個比如說KYC還有這些封控的部分已經有大幅的改善"},{"start":10102.17,"end":10115.682,"text":"剛剛提到這部分的話當然隨著這些另外一種環境的變更很有可能假設有這些未來有些潛在的威脅我也會請我們銀行局這邊針對銀行體系的部分我們會好好來監控這個情況"},{"start":10117.443,"end":10133.263,"text":"其實你上任到現在你算是一個非常那個願意做事也是非常有創意性的一個主委如果我們給弱勢的這個經濟弱勢的年輕人多一點不悲哉的一個機會有沒有可能當然有可能"},{"start":10133.743,"end":10158.505,"text":"我們引用很多就是說我們抓到了很多就是這個數據裡頭他告訴我們說如果從學校到社會前面去推動金融的一個試讀這個其實在我們那個金融院裡頭2023年的報告他有特別講到了他說他們去調查有60%以上的大學生其實他們沒有辦法真正的去理解信用卡的循環利息"},{"start":10159.105,"end":10178.341,"text":"所以就是因為在這個知識這麼淺薄的然後他沒有辦法去了解到說他負債的這個嚴重性所以他掉進來了那甚至在國外比照美國的ESA的一個制度他就是由政府跟僱主共同去建立一個不可提領"},{"start":10179.662,"end":10208.543,"text":"不可提領的一個除夕帳戶那專門用在這個醫療還是失業還是災難你看喔有很多人是因為就是醫療就是他生病了他沒有錢還是他的人生就做了一個很大的一個降低下來那是不是有辦法就是說我們去建立這樣子的一個那個推動這樣子的一個那個設計然後提升年輕人就是他在財務上的一個脆弱性啊有沒有機會"},{"start":10209.624,"end":10227.222,"text":"我想其實我們在我上任以後我也跟銀行局講普惠金融很重要的是要照顧到各個年齡層尤其現在我們的青年他在金融服務上面相對是弱勢所以這部分我們要怎麼樣提升剛剛提到剛剛委員有"},{"start":10228.163,"end":10247.857,"text":"有幾個想法我以前都還不知道所以我想說這部分我會是不是回去研究看看這個東西我們來看看是不是真的是比如說我們金融市場能著力還就是比如說我們針對金融機構因為至少金融機構是在我們很明確的管理之下我們鼓勵他們我們也是希望他們多多提供"},{"start":10249.438,"end":10268.733,"text":"針對青年朋友們的金融商品符合他們的商品那這部分呢也是我們正在請銀行這邊來加強推動的部分所以說主委我們給年輕人一個不背債的一個重新的一個機會所以本席在這裡要求金管會在6月30號以前以書面回覆以下研議的一個事項"},{"start":10269.474,"end":10284.372,"text":"就是你去檢討這個消債法的條例裡頭施行的一個成效跟改善的一個策略並且研擬就是建立一個申請消債或是債務協商者的一個追蹤跟輔導的一個機制那我們要加強資訊的一個揭露"},{"start":10286.414,"end":10310.927,"text":"那研擬加強提升金融理財的一個教育這個理財教育相當相當的重要還有風險的一個模擬這個疫警的一個機制我們希望提升年輕世代的一個財務韌性的一個方案那第三點對於金融消費者的一個保護尤其是對於金融創新的業務研擬是不是可以比照英美等國家轉向是"},{"start":10312.268,"end":10327.189,"text":"行為的監理這個行為的監理非常的一個重要不要我們都是只靠金融機構其實還有就是類金融的行為我們就是納管以免漏接掉消費者"},{"start":10329.161,"end":10345.591,"text":"主委 那個本席對你這樣子的一個要求那請就是把書面那個回覆給本席是 沒問題特別是剛剛委員提到第三個就是我們剛剛有委員提到金融消費者保護法納管那個就是針對行為管理就是這個方向好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":10374.586,"end":10400.878,"text":"好 謝謝羅明財委員接著請羅明財委員質詢慢慢來 慢慢來主席各位 初列是關於的主席可不可以請彭主委請彭主委委員你好 彭主委你好自從川普的關稅大戰"},{"start":10403.612,"end":10426.679,"text":"在那段時間台股突然急劇的下跌金管會提出了限空令這段時間為期大概多久限空令已經解除了對整個股市未來的發展會如何"},{"start":10427.878,"end":10439.81,"text":"那對於這個美國的關稅大戰下一次再引爆大概是什麼時候不曉得你們有沒有做一些沙盤推演"},{"start":10441.428,"end":10460.836,"text":"那其實剛剛也很多人關注其實我們就一個我們已經算是國際級的資本市場了有限空令是例外回歸市場機制才是原則的狀態我想我們也盤點過去我們在過去針對特殊情況所做的一些的"},{"start":10461.816,"end":10476.249,"text":"緊急的應應措施裡面大概就是一到三個月平均大概1.5個月這次差不多也差不多在兩個月之內我們就覺得說市場在這個階段並不是說未來不會有波動這大家都知道只是我們已經"},{"start":10477.21,"end":10495.829,"text":"不像上次4月7號那個時候的狀態那我想說盡快回復剛剛我也提到我就打個比方就是說我們出權久了酸軟無力我們在這個情況我們允許的情況我們先收回來隨時保持警戒我們才有下次出權的這個實力所以我的意思是說"},{"start":10496.71,"end":10522.402,"text":"本來我們面對未來不確定就是個常態了那我們做過很多很多的模擬推估我們內部有很多的演練當然我們這些都是我們未來在市場監理的常態所以我們都會適時的提出一些因應的措施因為未來很難說就像我們每天大家都會看到有不同的國際情勢的變化但是我想大家也慢慢觀察到了大家已經不如4月2號"},{"start":10523.643,"end":10523.663,"text":"臺灣的"},{"start":10546.618,"end":10565.045,"text":"股民最近好像喜善溫暖,一下是暴跌一下又拉升其實這個心臟如果不好的,其實最好不要投入股市做每日的當沖或者是短期的操作"},{"start":10565.825,"end":10587.983,"text":"主委你正不正統就是民眾以長期持有為準那短期的操作其實就是參考參考就好換言之就是請教主委現在全台灣這個股民有開戶的"},{"start":10589.324,"end":10607.313,"text":"大概有多少人?經常的出入的戶頭有多少人?大戶有多少?你們手上應該有資料吧?有,這個所謂的大戶要定義一下啦我知道我們現在的開戶數應該超過一千萬了超過一千萬?一千萬人?對,應該是有超過一千萬人我們待會,請同仁準備一下數值跟委員報告因為這個部分台灣的開戶比例算是蠻高的一般民眾參與"},{"start":10617.322,"end":10645.171,"text":"我們的開戶數值當然是1343萬7千那這個已經過半了對 確實所以台灣民眾對於台灣證券交易市場的參與度 黏著度 關心度其實是非常高的這要看他交易的實質的實動戶還有就是他 等於說這個是開戶數就像我們每個人手上都有好多的銀行帳戶你常用的其實可能沒幾個 對不對"},{"start":10647.062,"end":10666.05,"text":"所以主委你正不贊同就鼓勵全民來投資台灣的股市這個我們從其他國家裡面的一個實施經驗比如說我們現在普遍的這個開發國家都面臨到所謂的未來少子化高齡化未來所謂的"},{"start":10666.69,"end":10692.948,"text":"退休的壓力所以我們也看到很多國家從大概從2000年左右開始推動所謂的鼓勵全民長期投資資本市場的這樣一個促進措施就是我們各位聽到了很多的ISA就是個人投資儲蓄賬戶的概念我想越來越多的國家朝向這樣建立民眾第三支柱的概念來做我想這也是當然投資者有風險我想說就好像"},{"start":10694.429,"end":10719.714,"text":"我們也無法避免我們的資金總要有個投資的區域就像比如大家談到就是說我們是買基金或是買其他的這個這不同的種類但是我覺得就以投資風險分散的角度來看我覺得資本市場也是未來我們資產配置一個應該是要可以考慮的項目所以聽起來過去講養兒防老現在就是不如買股好"},{"start":10721.622,"end":10747.356,"text":"就是在資產配置上如果持有適當的股票對於退休之後的一些規劃也是有所幫助那我們再來看一下就是這幾天講得沸沸揚揚的主權基金不曉得主委贊不贊同台灣來成立一個主權基金"},{"start":10749.893,"end":10763.704,"text":"我在上次也有表達過這國家的政策呢我們在金管會立場我們當然是支持但是這部分我們就是覺得這個在這個時候如果需要的話我們比如我們金融市場其實也"},{"start":10764.685,"end":10765.927,"text":"主權基金規模要多大?"},{"start":10781.286,"end":10806.121,"text":"因為我想主權基金這個概念有很多很多種形式有各種各樣的投資策略還有它成立的背景這很難用一個多大來決定說是適當因為比如說國家的規模跟目的性跟你的長期的比如說你的目標這都不一樣還有就是你的資金的屬性從哪裡來這就決定了它整個規模我想很難有一個標準來做這件事情"},{"start":10807.517,"end":10834.845,"text":"大概我們看起來有的都是超過1.5兆以上全世界主權基金大概有90幾個國家都有設立主委你贊不贊同這些壽險公司可以把海外的資金把它引進回來來投入未來所謂我們要推動的國家的主權基金"},{"start":10835.805,"end":10852.892,"text":"我剛才跟委員報告過了就是說其實全世界受險公司都一樣他們最好的一個資產配置就是同幣別的配置比如他現在在台灣是賣台幣計價的保單他的負債是台幣那他們最好是在台灣能夠找到相對應的資產"},{"start":10854.252,"end":10878.152,"text":"那這裡面假如它是長期的負債對應一個長期的資產現金流能夠匹配的話它就免除了利率風險也免除了匯率風險這是一個最完美的一個投資結構那我想說假設未來我們有更多的像類似適合比如說受險公司投資的工具我想其實我們的受險公司就會認真的考慮了所以說"},{"start":10879.98,"end":10890.334,"text":"以後如果壽險公司他要來投我們自己推動的主權基金金管會的態度是正統的"},{"start":10890.922,"end":10919.065,"text":"就是看未來他發行假設是用公債的形式的話我覺得我們現在公債本來就有四個投資的項目而且我們給的權數也非常非常低對不對那這本來就是我們講就像我們現在很多的這個我們的受險資金是投資海外的公司債目的都是一樣希望維持長期穩定的收益為主那如果說還是同幣別的跟他負債同幣別那當然受險公司當然會"},{"start":10921.011,"end":10939.48,"text":"會有高度的興趣來看看這樣能夠讓他的資產負債匹配所謂的那個不匹配的程度能夠下降我想這也是一個大家希望樂見的一個發展方向所以你覺得主權基金的話他的每年的獲益應該是幾個百分比以上"},{"start":10940.42,"end":10963.615,"text":"這個其實有很多的研究,其實主權基金本來也是承擔風險但他們所謂的投資的標的不同就像我們所謂的基金,你期待的報酬是多少不過長期而言,他們一定要有一個自己的目標設定這很難說,你的是積極的還是比較那個,像假設新加坡他有兩個,他的目的就不同"},{"start":10964.895,"end":10993.002,"text":"比較積極性的大概一年的年報酬率是多少這我很難跟各位講那是簽證案基金屬性投資什麼標的去年大概7點多%啦這個算是比較積極型的而且操作上也不錯挪威基金也做得還不錯所以你覺得最低最低的話不論你是投資型的或者是保守型的那總是要有一個低標嘛"},{"start":10994.378,"end":11006.816,"text":"這個是未來我們假設我們設置一個主權基金他們會自己設定自己的目標剛剛委員提到像我們國際內大的主權基金其實在面對很多情況的時候它其實也會面臨到很大的波動很難講說能夠維持一個"},{"start":11010.42,"end":11036.829,"text":"穩定的報酬不過長期這個都非常非常長期來看那主要是這樣像我們會看到一些成功的啦所以當然你會看到這個指標但是其實像剛剛文獎那麼多的主銜基金也不是每一個都是成功所以我們很難有定一個標準那就看未來這個基金的屬性怎麼定義我想這部分自然會有可能還需要一段時間希望大家再多多來研究一下看怎麼樣是否"},{"start":11037.429,"end":11042.539,"text":"恰當 因為最怕的就是一個獨立性的問題還有人模不章的問題"},{"start":11044.318,"end":11073.132,"text":"所以這個怎麼樣來公正當然聖地亞哥原則也是有一些遵循的目標我希望在推的時候主委可以多發表類似國際的現階段的操作他們的嚴整性在哪裡他們成功的案例在哪裡可以多討論一下不過今天OIU OBOSU的這個部分國際金融業務我們希望可以加大力度"},{"start":11073.952,"end":11095.066,"text":"因為事實上這個努力的空間還很大因為主委希望把台灣變成是亞洲的資產管理中心看起來還需要再加把勁因為最近看到很多台灣很多公司下市"},{"start":11096.668,"end":11118.475,"text":"這也是透露了一些原因希望主委能多多關心一下上市很不容易就居然有很多的公司是下市下市影響公司 影響員工更重要的是影響了很多廣大的受害的投資人求償無門"},{"start":11120.095,"end":11131.824,"text":"雖然沒有投保中心還有所有的股票本來明天的期待落空還全部通通變成幣值所以這一點要請主委多多關心剛剛也有委員關心我們會來持續針對這個狀況做一些監控跟管理謝謝好 謝謝明財接著請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":11148.342,"end":11160.747,"text":"那我們11點50分開放在現場用餐謝謝主席 我們請金管會彭主委好 請彭主委"},{"start":11164.248,"end":11181.066,"text":"上禮拜有關融資公司法例的公聽會與會學者專家當然有持正面的有持負面的也不是負面的就是說要立專法不立專法都有但是與會的立委同仁大概都是一致希望說能夠還是立專法"},{"start":11182.327,"end":11202.032,"text":"可是上禮拜是我們副主委過來那副主委他講得很清楚他就說不立專法我們就用金保法來規範這個融資注定公司那是不是我們金管會的態度就是我們先不立專法了就用金保法來規範是那個謝謝委員那個雖然上次沒有來啦我想他們傳達意識帶就是我想趁這個機會簡短說一下"},{"start":11204.053,"end":11210.279,"text":"其實很多人把專法就視為是一部獨立的法律叫專法但實際上立這種法律的目的是要來解決問題"},{"start":11222.31,"end":11250.568,"text":"那假設說我們已經可以用這樣的一個法律的規範就可以解決這個問題的話我們是更簡便的立法所以主委是說用金保法就可以來處理目前的租賃公司的一些亂象就對了大部分的剛剛講是消費者爭議的部分我想這部分而且我再三強調很多人說這個監管不利各位想想看我們一般人認為我們金融機構的管理嚴不嚴"},{"start":11252.269,"end":11279.806,"text":"應該很嚴吧再來我們是把融資公司指定為是這個所謂我們管理的機構以後它除了金融管理的那一套要還要再加上我們針對特別融資公司的這些的規範所以我們也歡迎各界說假設你們所關心的消費者保護哪裡不夠我們現在法規還在預告程序中把那個比如說哪裡消費者保護我看有一些學者專家還是認為說如果光靠金保法還是不夠啊對"},{"start":11280.626,"end":11300.199,"text":"他那個講的不夠的意思就是說比如說這是一個很現實的問題他要把所有的融資公司的行為全部都要把他納管各位想我們台灣沒有一個專業的像比如日本的貸金公司我們是很多的公司他只做了這個貸款就會被納管那個加速連邊界都搞不清楚對不對到底誰是"},{"start":11301.3,"end":11324.932,"text":"我們市場上看不到有一家公司叫融資公司專門只做融資的公司就是沒有所以我說其實我們要非常非常清楚的知道說我們這個專法到底要規範誰而不是為了專法而專法當然不是為了專法而專法啦大家覺得說專法能夠管的大概廣度跟密度都會比用這個金寶法"},{"start":11325.592,"end":11346.945,"text":"來得好那現在就是說那個金管會的態度就是說我們就先不立專法我們就先用新保法來做處理就對了然後分三階段來納管對那我們想說第一個假設金管會主政B獎假設說按照一般專法的概念把那個所謂的號稱幾千家的公司全部納管我想這個很多人也提到在場我也聽很多學者講說"},{"start":11348.286,"end":11361.381,"text":"未來監理的量能你做得到嗎再來就是你把這些全部把那些只要監做到這個業務的人全部把他納管以管銀行的態度去管他你覺得他們當然很擔心他們也提到日本雖然他們一直舉貸金業法"},{"start":11363.183,"end":11379.03,"text":"但是日本做了以後呢其實還有很多很多的問題啊所以我的意思是說這要審慎的思考但是我們很務實的在還沒有立專法之前金管會非常負責任的就認為我們可以來著力的趕快來著力那你現在不是還在請這個銀行公會在在這個討論說是不是要立專法"},{"start":11379.73,"end":11408.532,"text":"那是因為上次委理有要求我們要那他們的那他們的草案出來了嗎沒有他們的草案還在調整中然後我看他們應該就不用了吧因為你的態度已經確定了啊我覺得齁我覺得所謂的專法的概念大家不要執著於一部什麼叫法律我們重點是要把問題解決而且我們現在立即可行而且都還沒有做就批評說這個做不到雖然沒有這個融資公司的專法但是在金保法都已經要把這個融資公司所要這個專法所要管的東西都把它納進去了嗎"},{"start":11410.114,"end":11424.715,"text":"就是大家所關心的消費爭議的部分我覺得大家都可以在這公聽的時候你可以把你覺得哪裡不夠比如說剛才講我們在過去看很多個案上面的問題其實上已經都已經被我們放在裡面而且是法律上的事好那我就明確的問那這樣子聽起來就"},{"start":11426.978,"end":11443.613,"text":"應該是今年就不會提專法就對了我覺得今年我們會先以那個金融消防法先來做我必須講假設以金管會的監理能量不可能再管這個幾千家的公司這個全世界沒有人這樣做那主委態度就很清楚了那我只是在舉這個監察院"},{"start":11445.174,"end":11467.82,"text":"他們四月份有個糾正案,不過他是糾正財政部的他就說他一直可以放款供國營要放款給這些融資公司他是糾正財政部不過他最後也是有提到啦他希望說行政院確實評估訂定融資租賃公司的專法還有指定業務主管機關的可行性那當然這是監察院的糾正案裡面的裡面有提到啦供你們參考不過我看這個主委態度已經很明確啦"},{"start":11469.144,"end":11488.751,"text":"那再跟我們講其實過去二三十年來當然大家都支持專法只是當時沒有想到可以用金保法來解決所以當然這個觀念在轉換的過程當中大家當然覺得說奇怪那為什麼金保法當初也不是要來管這個融資公司的啊當然但是各位想想看金保法是以金融業的標準喔現在我們講說他們現在是沒有管理假設"},{"start":11489.651,"end":11510.976,"text":"融資公司是以金融業的管理的規格來管理各位是不是覺得比較放心我是覺得大家仔細思考一下這個內容既然金管會態度有這麼明確了那我們就看分三階段第一階段上市的第二階段就是大概是前有一千家左右吧然後大概可以這樣子大概管的家屬大概有幾成呢我們"},{"start":11512.296,"end":11531.708,"text":"我們接下來第二階段會把金融機構轉投資的大概15家放進來接下來我們現在台北市租賃公會的我們會陸續把他納管那大概可以管到幾成?應該會差不多40家左右40家左右那全部所管的大概就40家左右其實我們講說他必須要先在公會我們才知道他的標的他沒有在公會就管不到了"},{"start":11532.168,"end":11554.708,"text":"比如說不是管不到我們其他還有民法刑法還有一大堆消費者保護法在管理好像不是說這些無法可管只是沒有所謂的一部法律的管理就像你現在放高利貸民法也可以處理刑法也可以做並不是沒人管好那我現在就比較清楚知道那個主委的態度那剛才很多我們同仁有問到這個主學基金"},{"start":11555.609,"end":11577.655,"text":"那是不是可以用這個發行這個公債來投資那我看這個主委昨天接受這個媒體查詢也提到說這個受險業的投資能夠改善資產負債的不匹配的問題所以你也蠻支持就是說主學基金可以用發行公債的方式來收受裁員那受險業"},{"start":11578.655,"end":11595.43,"text":"也有這個意願那如此就可以不用去買其他國家的公債也可以擴大對台幣投資也可以降低這個資產負債不匹配的狀況那我想請問一下那你怎麼吸引壽賢來參加因為壽賢他還是有固定的收益但是主權基金不一定"},{"start":11598.112,"end":11613.197,"text":"因為受險業的資金是有成本的就跟銀行的放款他是有成本的他有要給那個比如說存款人的那個利息還有他存放比的問題那一樣受影公司他一樣就是說假設我們看"},{"start":11613.937,"end":11638.534,"text":"世界上主要這些保險大國他們在經營的時候呢通常比如像美國他們大部分的那個他們的受險公司的資產都會放在公債上面還有就是所謂的長期的公司債為什麼這麼做因為很簡單啊在台灣的比例很低啊因為台灣主要我們的債券市場規模沒有那麼大所以這是一個問題所以我們才會講說其實受險業一直希望在台灣能夠找到期間長"},{"start":11639.995,"end":11655.052,"text":"獲利穩定而且安全性高能夠跟它負債做匹配那主權基金有符合你剛才講這三個特性嗎這要看未來發行的條件那未來發行的什麼樣的條件可以符合這三個你講的因為我們要吸引受寫人回來台灣投資嘛對 當然就是剛才講說第一個"},{"start":11655.993,"end":11672.347,"text":"比如說他的報酬率要能夠超過他自己的成本嘛那這部分我覺得這個就是我們未來要看而且其實台灣需要有這個長期穩定投資其實不只有壽險業我們很多我們自己的四大基金也有這個問題啊那你希望壽險業回來台灣投資主權基金"},{"start":11675.37,"end":11700.876,"text":"我當然是鼓勵他們做因為為什麼就像我們最近大概在討論這些匯率利率的問題其實一個很很根本的原因就是說為什麼我們的台灣的台幣的負債沒辦法找到台幣的資產來做個對應如果這個對應就像比如美國他們賣美元保單投美元資產他就不會有匯率的問題對一樣可以維持穩定匯率日本的公司也是買他們自己的"},{"start":11701.656,"end":11716.092,"text":"固定收益的商品它也就不會有匯率的問題那台灣因為資金多但是投資工具少所以過去長年以來就形成這個結果我們當然希望說有這個管道能夠逐步的扭轉這樣的趨勢對我們壽險業的長治久安還是很重要的"},{"start":11716.873,"end":11740.285,"text":"剛剛提到順著主委的話講就是最近台幣一直升值升到快29塊了所以售銜業面臨六月資本市足率的難關剛剛同仁有問過我再問一下售銜官員有建議說這個今年的資本市足率RBC它的填報仿造股票採半年日均價的概念匯率也採半年的日均價那主委的態度咧"},{"start":11740.905,"end":11765.497,"text":"我剛剛也講過了日均價這個不是獨厚誰它本來就是一個中性的比如在往下滑的時候你會感覺日均價對你有利但往上走的時候你就會覺得對你不利這本來就是一個就是但是唯一的差別就是說看單點跟看均價的概念是你是看長期還是看短期你看即時還是看趨勢RBC是用來衡量長期穩定經營的所以過去我們在"},{"start":11766.721,"end":11786.878,"text":"股價的時候我們是用均價所以剛才講工會提這個問題尤其面對這樣一個波動的情況之下我們正在考慮這件事情所以也會接受他們的建議就是匯率才有均價的方式就對了對 這個部分我們在考慮要有數值上面的分析的影響我們會朝這個方向來思考都傾向支持就對了"},{"start":11789.753,"end":11798.243,"text":"那我最後再問一下如果台幣繼續升值的話這個會不會影響到說明年我們順利接軌這個新一代遷產能力的制度"},{"start":11799.328,"end":11824.517,"text":"我想任何一個波動因為這是隨時要變動我們在就是因為剛好就剩下半年的時間我們當然往前看的話我們當然希望能夠平穩的過渡當然我們會盡量的朝這個方向來對我就說了如果說台幣如果再繼續再升值我看這大概會是一個趨勢會不會影響這個我不敢預期本來台幣未來的波動本來就很大那如果說是繼續升值的這個方向來講的話咧"},{"start":11828.93,"end":11844.97,"text":"這個部分我們就要看情況但是我們的制度是有期限的比如說我們的RBC到今年12月30號就會退場了就會成為歷史了這個退場之後我們未來看的指標是什麼我們所謂的新一代清償能力就是我們簡稱市場講TWICS"},{"start":11846.992,"end":11863.505,"text":"對 那我是指標啊因為你本來是看是我們是那個RBC嘛我們是看淨值嘛然後看這一個RBC不能低於200淨值不能低於2級低於3%嘛這是要求這個保險業要有這個清償的能力那我再看一下"},{"start":11864.766,"end":11881.276,"text":"這個去年年底的這個就這個財報來看的話有兩家公司啦一家是三商美邦RBC才136.3那另外一家是新售是221那這兩家如果在六月份都還沒辦法達標咧"},{"start":11882.901,"end":11906.724,"text":"原則上我們是這樣我們制度的銜接我們是看長遠我打個比方假如說明年呢等於說你現在你要承接你現在有自備款我才會給你寬容給你貸款才逐年還所以要滿足一個自備款的要件就是舊的制度你要符合這個規定這是法律的規定我是說那有給他們喘息的空間嗎"},{"start":11907.725,"end":11928.973,"text":"沒有 這個就是我們為了看整個的波動情形我剛才講過 市場的管理 穩定為先因為我們要看長 我說 我已經講過很多次最近這個匯率跟利率呢 都是 特別是匯率 都是一個所謂的波動會計上面的評價 而不是真的保險公司真的把錢拿回來那是財報已經變成損失了 對對對因為保險局 王局長提到說 給他們喘息到九月有這個 deadline 嗎"},{"start":11934.915,"end":11951.344,"text":"這就要看那情況我們會針對這個半年我們應該怎麼樣讓它順利過渡正在思考這個問題好 以上先就教到如此謝謝謝謝李崑禎委員馬上請李延秀委員 謝謝好 謝謝主委謝謝主席是不是請主委 彭主委"},{"start":11966.762,"end":11981.372,"text":"主委剛聽到你回答李昆城委員其實因為這半年大環境的變化我確實認為這個是需要給一些彈性因為整個大環境的變化不是我們預料的到確實是需要一些滾動式的調整這個我也支持你的做法"},{"start":11981.972,"end":12006.301,"text":"主委因為我今天時間有限我有好幾個議題要問其他的部會所以請您簡答就好主委我最近關心到金管會這邊制定一個新規就是受險持有單一檔次被動式ETF持股的上限只能到30%那既有的超限的部分只能出不能進從媒體上我看到新聞上是說5月底"},{"start":12006.781,"end":12033.981,"text":"要上路那這個部分到底但我又聽到另外一個說法韓市是說六月中要上路我們到底具體的時間點要什麼時候要開始實施包委員我想具體我請王局長跟你簡單回答一下好你再簡單就好了因為我想大家都想知道這個具體的時間點我們應該是在六月份會發布韓市六月份發布韓市然後後面要做什麼樣的有給什麼樣彈性的時間嗎"},{"start":12035.598,"end":12054.196,"text":"已經超過那個30%的部分我們就是讓他不再新增不再新增部位再新增部位不要再新增部位維持現有的一個好那可不可以回應我就是目前有幾家售銜公司持有單一的ETF超過30%的持股哪幾間是在市井邊緣"},{"start":12069.658,"end":12078.985,"text":"新規一上路,會不會反向促使更多投信推出更多相同的追蹤標的物,同質性的ETF?"},{"start":12079.585,"end":12100.08,"text":"因為它都是追的我們台灣的50的指數嘛它都是追蹤相關的標的指數那其實這個部分譬如說像006208還有0050其實都是追蹤類似的台灣50的指數所以我們這樣的限制有沒有意義"},{"start":12102.042,"end":12117.31,"text":"應該這樣講就是說我們過去在保險法146之一系列的投資規定裡面分散避免集中都是他一向我們對投資規範的概念因為過去有很多他特殊的原因所以很多的黨是高度集中"},{"start":12118.37,"end":12138.615,"text":"我支持你的做法 我只是提醒你 他們有類似追蹤的指數我們這樣分散有沒有意義這個跟我們政經局另外的政策一樣 他們在審核這些基金的時候我們也要避免雷同你以後會有其他的做法其他我們在ETF也會做這樣的一個管理"},{"start":12140.175,"end":12156.921,"text":"什麼時候整套的管理會出來不是 這本來我們在ETF的時候本來就管理就是避免他們就是大家對 所以我才提說其實有好幾個不同黨其實都是類似最終同樣的標的嘛所以你這樣限制30%有沒有意義這個是我要提醒主委的地方"},{"start":12157.461,"end":12160.024,"text":"因為保險公司市場的監理我們實際上基於大家一個很重要你理解我監理官的想法"},{"start":12176.323,"end":12191.095,"text":"所以你真的要走這個東西所以你要有其他的工具跟手段你才有辦法去達到你今天韓式的目的出來嘛對不對我只是提醒我沒有看到你其他的韓式的你有沒有其他的做法我還沒有看到所以今天我透過這個質詢來提醒主委"},{"start":12193.237,"end":12218.514,"text":"第二個也是我長期關注的我希望我有答案啦我希望後續你可以提供我答案那第二個就是我們防詐的量能齁其實從防詐的儀表板裡面我看到從2月份開始我們財損是60億然後3月份是70億4月份是76億就是說詐騙的案件仍舊是層出不窮喔那所以我們看到金管會去年曾經也要求我們銀行都要設打詐的專責的主管"},{"start":12221.656,"end":12238.492,"text":"之前同樣的議題我問過財政部我說我們打仗的專責的主管到底是兼任還是應該專任那目前我看到我們的公股其實都是兼任兼任其實沒有辦法達到主要的目的為什麼因為他都有其他主要的業務"},{"start":12239.073,"end":12258.571,"text":"都會先把他主要業務做好他才會他不可能主要去做打賬所以這個是兼任跟專任最主要的差別所以我要請問金管會你手邊到底有沒有盤點所有的公股跟民間所有的銀行我們到底有多少是兼任多少是專任"},{"start":12260.973,"end":12286.946,"text":"我們有什麼具體的做法 希望他是專任專任比兼任好嘛 你同意我的說法對不對 主委當然所有事情如果專職專職才能把事情做好嘛對 但是我們現在第一個先要求他們一定要有這個專職而不是專職 比如說要有這個來負責任的高階主管那以前可能沒有 那我們現在有剛剛委員講的是這個人只做這件事情"},{"start":12288.127,"end":12307.854,"text":"主委我覺得因為近期我們看到銀行行員涉詐騙案越來越多這也顯示出內控失靈的狀況雖然部長今天回應我說其實有一些是他們在內部內控的機制他們自己已經警覺發聲但是如果在事前更前端他們內部有更多"},{"start":12308.934,"end":12334.745,"text":"不同道的警示機制說不定這些平常的標準SOP他們制定的更嚴謹說不定這些事情根本連發生的機會都沒有而不需要內控機制去察覺因為最近我們看到內控機制失靈其實是頻繁度是越來越高這個是我期望我覺得主委我們未來在盤點內部機制的時候我覺得我們應該要去處理的地方那最後一個就是"},{"start":12335.945,"end":12344.451,"text":"主委我要提醒一下就是說我們目前打詐的專法防制條例在去年的7月31號公佈實施那無論是從投資的詐騙網路的詐騙還有包括學生網購其實都非常的頻繁"},{"start":12352.917,"end":12367.179,"text":"我提出一個建議我覺得我們現在國人對於金融的教育的部分比照國際比如說比照美國跟日本他們在高中生他們就推動金融教育課程的義務化的課程"},{"start":12368.1,"end":12386.045,"text":"就是說哪些無論是我們一般的民眾我覺得如果可以從學校教育對於金融的部分金融教育的義務化如果我們可以提早去做一些鋪陳我覺得對於國人金融教育也好或打詐這一個部分的資訊我覺得會更嚴謹"},{"start":12387.805,"end":12404.188,"text":"所以我今天提出這個質詢我希望我們可以有一個專案可以跟教育部來去做溝通未來如何從高中的課程如何從國際金融教育的部分我們可以開始去做深耕的做法可不可以"},{"start":12405.168,"end":12421.186,"text":"我想這個方向我們是支持一定支持因為我們即便沒有再變成課程化我們現在走入校園都是我們持續在辦的好 謝謝主委但是我希望有具體的做法我希望可以在三個月之內這一個我提議看如何去回應我好不好主委你請回時間先暫停我可不可以請複稅署"},{"start":12426.58,"end":12444.621,"text":"時間一直在走 署長我不要佔用太多時間因為我這個個案可能影響到很多人我們現在不印證的部分事實上在財政部是可以列為扣除額的不印證的補助可以列為扣除額"},{"start":12445.902,"end":12459.16,"text":"那我這邊有一個個案就是他原本以為他做不孕症的治療那可以退稅但是後來被繳納六萬塊的稅款那醫療扣除的部分應該跟生育政策是輔助是相輔相成"},{"start":12461.042,"end":12479.768,"text":"那我這邊看到的是你複稅署回應說他必須這些醫療院所必須事前申請財政部的認可會計的合格才可以我覺得這跟大法官的解釋是有衝突的因為一般民眾他去做生育的補助我們國人現在都希望真的不孕症"},{"start":12480.148,"end":12496.136,"text":"我們鼓勵他去做這件事情他都會考量第一他費用的價格跟院所的評價還有他有沒有補助但國健署是不是有補助這件事情其實是非常明確的但是至於這個醫療院所有沒有在我們複稅署裡面"},{"start":12498.405,"end":12518.973,"text":"申請他是可以列為扣除額這件事情通常國人都不知道我們通常只知道我現在我如果有需要我不印證我去做這件事情我最後是有機會不是有機會是我一定可以列為扣除額但是我覺得我們現在的做法事實上是跟大法官的解釋是互相違背的"},{"start":12520.433,"end":12546.538,"text":"必須醫療院所有去申請他才可以抵扣扣除我覺得這件事情跟我們現在鼓勵生育補助鼓勵大家如果真的不孕症的話我覺得這件事情是互相違背的所以這件事情是不是可以請複稅署可以基於職權應該從個案可以去做一些審核的方法跟方式"},{"start":12547.478,"end":12550.081,"text":"否則我們當時是獵主扣除的這件事但目前其實大部分我們都知道人工升職的醫療院所目前在我們的申請裡面總共就是12家裡面只有2家是可以免稅扣除額的"},{"start":12564.258,"end":12580.915,"text":"那但是事實上目前其實人工升職的醫療院所非常非常多大家只會去想說哪一間評價比較好還有費用比較合理他根本不會知道說這間是不是在扣除額裡面等到他做完之後他這一看原來這一間他沒有申請扣除額"},{"start":12582.546,"end":12603.032,"text":"所以這個事情我覺得賦稅署應該有不同的思考邏輯跟方式因為六萬塊對於一般年輕的夫婦他做人工生殖這件事情其實費用已經是非常的高所以署長我覺得這件事情應該從個案的部分去做一些思考"},{"start":12604.31,"end":12628.28,"text":"我快速的回應你一下其實因為我們所需要17條裡面明明規定是要公立還有健保特約醫院他還有我們所謂財政部核定會計支援隊醫院才可以列報所以要費扣除他的立法意志主要是因為如果他沒有核實去申報收入他開出來收據如果一般的我們講的就診者那個署長"},{"start":12629.52,"end":12658.281,"text":"所有的醫療院所它都是合法合規的醫療院所我們現在做人工生殖沒有什麼地下的不合法不合規只是說我們我們現在就是說要列舉扣除這些醫療院所目前就只有兩家是可以扣除事實上在台灣有這麼多家都有在做人工生殖我們都希望我們這個政策我們這個列舉扣除人工生殖的補助可以列舉扣除是可以照顧所有"},{"start":12659.122,"end":12675.456,"text":"年輕的夫妻他有這個需求否則我們就跟鼓勵生育這件事情政府的政策是互相違背的所以我才請你再去進一步再去思考這個政策有沒有必要再去進一步的做調整因為這跟大法官的解釋事實上是互相違背的"},{"start":12676.417,"end":12693.267,"text":"我希望妳去看一下大法官的解釋有 我跟委員報告其實我們現在有一直密切跟衛福部那邊去合作然後我們現在的方向我們最近才剛修正了一個認定要點就是鼓勵我們所謂的醫療院所來申請像"},{"start":12695.848,"end":12719.597,"text":"醫療院所根本不會去管 可不可以抵扣他只要去管他的醫療專業做不做得好這件事情所以你看一下大法官的解釋其實是對於給付其他合法醫療院所的醫療費用不得列舉扣除這件事情其實跟憲法第七條平等原則的意旨是不符合的"},{"start":12720.117,"end":12735.342,"text":"所以我才請你再去回頭去看一下我們這個政策推出的時候跟大法官的解釋是互相違背我再次強調醫療院所做人工生殖這件事情他不會去管我的病人病患他可不可以列舉扣除"},{"start":12735.942,"end":12750.53,"text":"醫院關心的是我的醫療會不會做得好價格是不是一個合理我要訂一個什麼樣的價格但是這整件事情跟政府其實希望鼓勵人工生殖我們政府也希望有一些補助所以我們的做法其實應該再進一步做調整"},{"start":12756.773,"end":12777.544,"text":"我們現在會努力去讓我們的醫療人員所能夠了解我們現在的規定然後願意來而且我們有鼓勵的措施主動出擊啊對啊 反正署長我不占用別的委員的時間主動出擊去處理這件事情不要把政府的美意打對責有有有 我們都有處理謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":12781.166,"end":12798.438,"text":"是 謝謝燕秀我想在這裡跟護睡署做一個結議希望就是因應少子化那這個人工生殖法你有一個比較具體的方式兩個禮拜提出來給我們委員會好不好 好 謝謝好 接著我們請陳一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 請那個彭主委 謝謝請彭主委"},{"start":12810.67,"end":12837.629,"text":"主委您好請問一下我們全國任何一家證券公司的分公司是不是都要做執行KYC如果對客戶來講應該這是我們金融消費者保護法規定的是要定期的更新客戶資料這個程序沒錯吧有這個規定那詢問客戶是不是詢問客戶是否是新聞上參與罷免民進黨立委王定宇的青年金這個是KYC嗎"},{"start":12838.73,"end":12860.236,"text":"這當然不會是我們金管會的我也看到這個新聞我也覺得這個詢問客戶是否參與罷免民進黨利益王定理這個是KYC嗎謝謝文給我們澄清的結果我們金管會不可能去做這件事情不可能嗎當然不可能但是我們查了一下相關的報導金管會並沒有做出任何的澄清啊你有看到這個新聞嗎這個營業人士說來來我把這個過程講一下這個有新聞嘛你有看到了齁"},{"start":12866.778,"end":12895.555,"text":"也有 議員也有出來開這個記者會喔說金管會查水表喔當然不可能 我再重申只是我們現在的從業人員常常把那個規定就是說金管會規定它是說短短七天內接到原大證券林森分公司許姓研究員兩通電話對方先以例行更新客戶個人資料為由進行詢問然後詢問那一位胡先生是不是新聞上參與罷免民進黨立委王定宇的青年金然後在追問以後"},{"start":12896.275,"end":12911.67,"text":"還表示營業員表示此為因應金管會要求進行的調查你們沒有做任何的澄清我們有太多太多的消息我們都要澄清的話其實這個大家就是"},{"start":12912.691,"end":12923.321,"text":"非常非常簡單的常識問題 金管會怎麼可能去規定這個事情我事實上對金管會的正式的澄清絕不可能我們一向覺得政府機關都是守法守紀一般來說不會做那種很奇怪的事情"},{"start":12931.989,"end":12950.331,"text":"近年來很多的機關都非常的所謂的中立機關、獨立機關都非常不中立、不獨立所以我們也產生懷疑理論上今晚會也不應該是這樣做啦因為你們還沒有澄清就讓人家覺得是不是一種默認啦當然不會那我意思就好像我們每天每天這麼多網路上的"},{"start":12951.312,"end":12974.3,"text":"網民講一些事情我們都要澄清但是那些有的是詐騙集團但是不確實有一個營業員這樣做我覺得假設這邊只涉到某家證券公司他應該自己來澄清這件事情你們也應該去了解一下吧他應該自己去釐清說你們的同仁有沒有很多事情就講說都是盡管會規定的你既然已經在那邊澄清了我也想請你給你一個禮拜調查一下結果要送過來"},{"start":12975.8,"end":12997.97,"text":"我相信你,我沒有不相信,我只是說你們都沒有做任何動作會讓外界誤以為這個就是你們在做這樣的任務那也調查一下嘛像你說的那個相關的公司也沒有出來澄清啊他也理論上應該自己站出來說句話不然現在整個這個氛圍這樣子大家都覺得有可能金管會或相關的都做這樣的事情"},{"start":12998.55,"end":13009.483,"text":"好 一個禮拜給我們報告好 謝謝我們來講那個詐騙 詐騙現在的確是很猖獗看不下去 你看114年今年的4月份就是上個月"},{"start":13011.845,"end":13024.151,"text":"財產的損失是七十六億五千一萬五千多片的詐騙數假投資四十億網路購物假買家都是一億一億假交友十三億假交友這個產業已經變成一個產業了而且我們看到那個"},{"start":13029.193,"end":13045.546,"text":"那個他的這個產值啊就是他詐騙金額都越來越高所以國人實在是受害很深啊這個很多人你看很多人也都不學好就裡面投入這個產業其他產業也很慘但是詐騙產業真正日常啊案件也一直提高那你看喔你們有提一個"},{"start":13046.667,"end":13061.436,"text":"金融帳戶預警的這個制度嘛對吧你沒有提這個制度出來嘛所以要聯手這個勸阻這個客戶把資金匯往疑似涉及詐騙的境內帳戶預計在今年五月底完成嘛五月底剩幾天了會完成嗎"},{"start":13062.267,"end":13073.456,"text":"我們已經完成了我們來看一下你們公布的市井帳戶我們看從110年第一季是4萬多戶在隔一年是7萬多戶112年變9萬6到113年是12萬6到了今年每一年一年看今年是15萬15萬個警示帳戶所以這警示帳戶隨著你們的這個"},{"start":13089.549,"end":13105.758,"text":"這個煮炸應該有一直加強啦對不對但是警示帳戶越來越多啦但是我們也看到了就是我們自從我們今年年初採取一系列措施以後警示帳戶的成長率已經快接近零成長率接近零嗎114年低劑15萬還是在成長但成長率已經比以前"},{"start":13111.534,"end":13120.906,"text":"有明顯下降我們是希望他趕快趨近一年所以現在第二季還沒關第一季十五萬第二季一季0.4成長率從原來的大概理論上這種帳戶應該是要下降從原來成長率2.3到0.4"},{"start":13130.018,"end":13138.543,"text":"我想這個部分我們一定很努力就是說我們做得不好我們覺得這個也是大家還要繼續努力嘛詐騙實在是太過猖獗大家都被詐騙過你們二月的時候有邀請各個銀行開會嘛有你訂一個改善機制對吧"},{"start":13146.427,"end":13164.395,"text":"有兩個監控的指標僅是戶比還有存款帳戶比僅是戶業新增率和同業平均業增率這兩個比例如果一旦從實超過100%就會被打入黑名單嘛對不對那現在已經實施三個月了吧成效好不好我們請局長跟我們說明一下"},{"start":13165.976,"end":13193.611,"text":"跟委員報告那個我們到目前為止我們有訂定這個指標對然後如果連續兩個月都超過100的話我們會正式發文那我們已經在上個禮拜有正式發文目前有三家金融好請問是哪些銀行哪三家銀行那我們知道但要公告公告以後大家才知道這些銀行是不可以不然這些銀行要注意這些銀行來的贓物而且會影響銀行的信用對吧我想我們會適時的時候再對因為我們現在還在你如果公告才有"},{"start":13194.371,"end":13217.143,"text":"賀祖的效果才有老百姓才知道說這銀行不好這銀行才會更努力的去打詐 阻詐這是未來的一定是這樣那請問是哪些銀行我也不知道說真的哪幾家沒有想這個沒辦法公告是嗎現在我覺得這部分我們還是先從這個控管機制我覺得在這時候當場公佈我覺得這部分我們還要再為什麼 你怕怎樣"},{"start":13219.044,"end":13243.076,"text":"保護哪些銀行我也不知道哪些銀行真的我可以再跟委員報告我想在這邊我們暫時先為什麼我們要保護這個不夠努力的銀行或者我們這樣講沒關係因為剛開始嘛2月嘛現在5月剛開始到5月那我們是不是後面可以建立一個制度就是說如果做得不好就是要公告嘛他才有警惕效果嘛銀行也才會更努力嘛"},{"start":13243.516,"end":13271.233,"text":"未來公告就是我們的武器啦但是因為我們制度實施很多時候呢我們希望我們的指標更穩定更可靠以後呢你公告銀行自然就會更努力啊他也不想上榜變成一個好像詐騙集團都特別favor他們的銀行或者他們特別有詐騙集團去那個對不對我們就是希望說對大眾有幫助一個月76億的詐騙金額啊沒有我想說這部分除了這個部分以外還有什麼措施你們還可以再做的 積極措施"},{"start":13271.553,"end":13292.094,"text":"其實我們很多就不能夠對外說明啦因為現在詐團也在看我們看你們做什麼 道高一尺 謀高一丈對 我們是謀高一尺 道高一丈但是我的意思是說因為我們有請金融機構我們要用科技打詐 精準打詐意思是說我們不會對外說我們怎麼做"},{"start":13293.035,"end":13307.354,"text":"因為炸團也是個產業剛剛委員講到實在是太誇張了他會知道我們怎麼做以後他也會因應這個我們理解我們也可以我們可以理解希望你們做得好但是如果做得不好的你給他公告也會有幫助那是絕對的當作未來的方向"},{"start":13309.376,"end":13317.4,"text":"這也是我們做這個指標很重要的目的啦希望做得好的我們也有獎勵做得不好大家也有勇氣因為從金融機構下手也是一個很大的幫助因為投資詐騙跟這個實在影響很大然後接著我在本期在3月31號有諮詢我們金管會的OIU的事情"},{"start":13329.346,"end":13347.519,"text":"結果有關這個因為OIU是最大客源是入客大陸限制來台所以客源少了一大塊這個部分那我也說過我們金門發展OIU的優勢有入客有優惠的這個稅收還有小三通現在是唯一兩岸間有大陸客可以來的地方那金管會有那時候給我一個報告就是說"},{"start":13350.021,"end":13367.251,"text":"金蘭的說法你們的答覆竟然是說如果未來縣市我們地方有提出相關發展方向的話你們會配合評估樂見高雄專區要做了吧高雄專區成功以後可以複製到其他城市喔但我覺得說我們就是因為相信金管會的專業"},{"start":13368.691,"end":13391.936,"text":"就是說因為地方政府是在比較沒這方面的能力就相信你們專業才是請你們幫我們提供出一個方法看有沒有什麼做法讓比如說金門這樣一個特殊的地方可以OIU可以做得更好或者是可以開始的OIU現在全國都做得不好那我們就說我們的那個地理的位置就請你們提出方法現在你們又給我回答說請建制政府提出發展方案這個好像有點倒過來"},{"start":13394.617,"end":13409.4,"text":"我們是請你們協助你們的專業我們可以做什麼我覺得真的很佩服委員在對金門鄉親的這些的關懷我的意思是說主要是因為我們這個專區的概念是說由地方政府說我願意提出什麼配套措施那我們"},{"start":13410.161,"end":13424.95,"text":"地方政府金融專業沒有櫃會的牆他們提的不是你們可以說我們需要配合什麼我們來做嗎我舉例他提供場地提供一些地方的比如說生活或租稅上面他們地方可以做的優惠"},{"start":13426.371,"end":13444.459,"text":"你們列舉出來我們可以來看地方政府來做哪些是你們主動提出來嘛因為地方政府不知道到底要怎麼做我們也沒有期待像什麼高雄一樣什麼15 16家什麼這個銀行進駐啦至少利用這個地利之便有入客到訪這個優勢怎麼樣來做啦我們樂於就是跟比如說"},{"start":13445.424,"end":13445.764,"text":"接著請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":13482.166,"end":13508.986,"text":"謝謝主席 我請我們金管會的彭主委好 請彭主委喂 彭主委好 辛苦了我本來今天要跟你談難得你推動的這個亞洲資產管理中心現在已經有35家金融機構表態願意進駐 這本來是好消息可是我今天要先跟你提一下就是到底"},{"start":13510.049,"end":13530.337,"text":"我們國內血汗責任額的金融機構是哪一些啦因為大概這幾個禮拜來就承接著我們從去年開始有的這個ETF的熱潮那我們就陸續接到金融機構"},{"start":13532.165,"end":13542.061,"text":"券商包括銀行那麼券商的營業員銀行的里莊們他們都有來投訴就是說竟然啊"},{"start":13543.274,"end":13569.177,"text":"我們的金融機構包括國營的喔給他們一個不合理的責任額的分配那這些責任額的分配那該券商銀行都是用這種人格侮辱威脅恐嚇經濟壓迫不公平對待甚至很多很奇怪的"},{"start":13570.219,"end":13594.973,"text":"言論方式來壓榨他們我舉幾個這種亂象這些亂象其實或多或少我想主委你應該有接到投訴比方說這個責任你做不到自己想辦法比方說要不然你就自掏腰包要不然你就這個環境不適合你你就離開吧"},{"start":13596.451,"end":13617.661,"text":"用這種威脅的方式甚至還直接券商還直接對這個營業人說我不相信你在IPO連十萬都賣不到都騙不到連十萬都騙不到那某一家今天"},{"start":13626.345,"end":13640.995,"text":"這個公營航空他也在場但是是他們的證券主管啦直接在談話的時候直接強調說要用話術去詐騙客戶天啊用話術詐騙客戶那就包括剛剛我講的連10萬IPO的時候你連10萬都騙不到嗎天啊"},{"start":13653.649,"end":13680.991,"text":"我先前在說薯條三兄弟是有牌的地下錢莊成幾何時我們國家的國營的券商銀行竟然成了有牌的詐騙集團要去詐騙投資人詐騙我們一般的百姓可以這樣子嗎 要"},{"start":13683.544,"end":13701.708,"text":"他的禮專銀行券商要他的音樂園去詐騙投資者無辜的民眾可以這樣子做嗎然後還亂象超多啦我隨便舉幾項齁還說這些主管講話的時候還說"},{"start":13708.7,"end":13733.872,"text":"你的裙子穿得比別人短結果你的責任跟別人一樣你覺得這樣公平嗎竟然講這樣子的話有的主管還直接對女性講說你是女性欸你是女人欸你要利用自己的優勢天啊"},{"start":13736.55,"end":13763.172,"text":"天啊這些都是實話我再沒有看到這些投訴沒看到他們提出的證據的時候實在不敢相信無法自信所以我相信王主委你或多或少理解到這一個部分所以我要請問你的就是說有沒有接獲就是我們金管組會有沒有接獲這個"},{"start":13765.7,"end":13787.64,"text":"券商、投信、銀行他們的營業人禮專這一些那有這種被壓迫的情況還有第二點那我們金管會專案精簡了沒有那這個專案精簡我覺得不能只針對投信、券商我看連銀行都要在內的原因是什麼呢"},{"start":13789.061,"end":13793.545,"text":"銀行因為要負責保管,銀行現在也要銷售投資型的保單,現在銀行也給他們的保管"},{"start":13808.413,"end":13828.101,"text":"除了禮專以後還包括他們的櫃員他們在櫃檯也都分配他們額度就對然後甚至有的主管直接挑明的說說你自行購買就是你自掏腰包"},{"start":13829.281,"end":13845.248,"text":"那這個就是付給公司的保護費 表明了這樣講喔說這個是付給公司的保護費 否則 KPI不達到 年終獎金一毛也拿不到"},{"start":13847.349,"end":13876.407,"text":"就是這樣子天啊激進恐嚇之能事啦所以這些亂象那個彭主委我不曉得您有沒有接獲這一些亂象的投訴還有你打算怎麼樣來整頓報告委員我們有接到投訴那就是因為在大概是這件事情的前後我們大概就我們棋局這邊有接到一些投訴的動作啦那當然"},{"start":13877.566,"end":13891.162,"text":"就像這個全經理也提出一些訴求啊我們當然也就採取了行動那這部分的話我們分兩部分跟委員簡單說明一下我先請那個政經局局長簡單跟你報告一下他們現在請眷商是怎麼做"},{"start":13894.546,"end":13917.686,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在已經叫建商全部去搜尋這個事項那搜尋回來我們再來看他們什麼方式來現在去搜尋資料那這個大概多久會有結果我想一兩個禮拜就會回來一兩個禮拜一個禮拜兩個禮拜你要講清楚好不好因為兩個禮拜他們就會回報回來那你一拿到結論"},{"start":13919.912,"end":13940.731,"text":"你除了通報彭主委也讓我們知道好不好讓我們財委會知道好不好那彭主委那個你有要求說你這其實也對啦你要求他們說先制定規範先制律這也對可是如果已經有這麼荒腔走板的言行出現啊"},{"start":13942.372,"end":13967.425,"text":"黃牆左板的要求出現了我覺得這不只是讓他們自律而已而且剛剛你有提到的這個全今年他們這個五大訴求我覺得這個五大訴求都蠻有道理的而且是我們應該積極去做到包括他提到的第五個訴求就是建立吹哨者的保護機制這一點也很重要否則他們金若寒蟬不太敢講"},{"start":13969.326,"end":13974.127,"text":"任何一個建設性的意見對希望市場更健全更好我們都會好好來演繹參考他們認為頭信回單機制應該揭露他們認為對違法違規的券商要從嚴處分限期改善這個都對啊要求他們內部規範這就是你提到的嘛內部規範先要求他們自律"},{"start":13994.952,"end":14018.988,"text":"然後他們要求說IPO的評分機制這個要有這個都正確的事情尤其最後這一點就是說我希望能做到這個吹哨者保護的機制好不好我想這些都很具體啦我們都可以來看看只要能夠改善市場剛才委員提到啦剛才那些情況如果是不合理的我想"},{"start":14020.182,"end":14035.569,"text":"我上次文匯提到說因為我們業務端他有很多的那個促進業務的做法但是也要合理當然合法是不是不用講了你看喔這些齁我舉你看嘛去年我諮詢就講了我說我們"},{"start":14036.409,"end":14065.829,"text":"銀行手續費收入是佔竟然佔他們的大宗那我們前五大還好這前五大都是民營銀行他們去拼賺這些手續費最高的一年四百一十幾億其他都兩三百億第五名的還有一百六十六億之高那當然這些手續的收入某個程度講這是他們的權利啦但是每年啊"},{"start":14066.891,"end":14071.382,"text":"加起來上千億的手續費我就講五年就好"},{"start":14071.96,"end":14082.685,"text":"五年以來金融商品的說明不足造成的爭議竟然高達1390件五年1390件讓他們每年可以收上千億兩千億的手續費那這些金融商品他們胡亂週一通就是剛剛講的騙的結果有爭議啦1390件五年總共罰五件啦"},{"start":14099.312,"end":14110.985,"text":"五件那總共罰五千六百萬那可以說是哇這個是九牛一毛啦九萬牛一毛啦"},{"start":14112.028,"end":14136.615,"text":"每年兩千多億啊五年一兆的手續費那有爭議的那麼多只罰五千六百萬天啊所以我最後那個主席不好意思齁我再一分鐘我是要跟那個彭主委強調一下其實我們要壯大台灣金融市場打造具有台灣特色的資產管理這個都對但是有一點"},{"start":14137.857,"end":14163.708,"text":"我一直覺得蠻矛盾就是我一年前講 講到現在我就說我們受險的資金餘額35兆裡面有高達70%有25兆拿去買國外的債券基金而這些國外的債券基金兩大風險一個匯率 一個戰爭結果兩個我們都碰到了匯率就是這一次美國這一次"},{"start":14164.508,"end":14192.51,"text":"那這台幣漲了一成他們的損失這麼重大他們受險要的損失就是全民保護的損失欸是這樣嘛第二個啊 戰爭題的也碰到了嘛俄國買的那一千三百多億就是碰到戰爭的風險所以我要你回去好好細思一下當我們希望打造台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心的時候至少"},{"start":14193.391,"end":14217.526,"text":"我們要一定程度的要在國內我們設建設公債引導我們這些受險資金回到台灣來壯大台灣這才對也就是說我們的錢至少相當一部分我們自己管這樣我們才有辦法去吸收國外的錢說你來給我管嘛不是這樣嗎如果我們70%的錢出去給別人管"},{"start":14218.226,"end":14246.487,"text":"然後我們說拜託大家錢來給我管這不成效那要找誰來給我們管找非洲的小國家嗎所以這一點我們要好好的細思一下也就是說美國這一次的關稅匯率這件事情是不是會影響到我們導引我們國內授權業的資金回台灣這個部分正反面好好去評估好不好"},{"start":14247.087,"end":14249.129,"text":"好 謝謝委員的意見 謝謝謝謝鳳女辛苦了 謝謝時間接著請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席 請彭主委好 請彭主委委員好"},{"start":14269.269,"end":14279.374,"text":"市主委我想今天很重要的一個我們在討論的案子是亞太理財中心在一百零四年推出的國際金融業務條例今天要修正那"},{"start":14280.931,"end":14303.252,"text":"內容當時的目標好像是要跟其他的國家來競爭甚至搶國外到台灣的人來台灣買保險那到今天為止已經整整十年所以我們要往下再延十年這十年來現在行政院又要打造台灣是亞太資產管理中心我們聽到這些名詞已經聽很久了"},{"start":14304.532,"end":14328.263,"text":"亞太理財中心現在是亞洲資產管理中心主委這10年我們就回頭來看看前面給了10年效益怎麼樣有沒有達到金管會當時設定的目標我想這個數字不會騙人我想過去OIU確實在尤其最近幾年那績效不好績效很差應該是說這10年來我們給了這麼多優惠好像也沒有什麼進展"},{"start":14332.072,"end":14352.771,"text":"但是我必須講說時空不一樣了就像我們最近所以未來還有10年這10年你有什麼目標跟想法很簡單我們原來預估要36家目前來的20家達成率55%人身保險的收入保費收入我們預估是30億我們只收到1.3億然後財產保險保費收入我們預估要6.7億結果收到了0"},{"start":14359.946,"end":14375.512,"text":"在保險的保惠收入20億好一點大概11億目標57.9也就是說這是10年的成績單實在不好看那現在就是彭竺瑞當年是過度樂觀那時空環境不同你覺得最大的問題出在哪裡"},{"start":14376.411,"end":14389.269,"text":"我想剛才其實很多委員也指教過了啦就比如說當時的目的當時希望用大陸客嘛對不對所以大陸客這十年就沒有啦那當然再來就是我們的商品沒有競爭力我覺得是很關鍵點"},{"start":14390.481,"end":14412.076,"text":"商品沒有競爭力,成本過高所以沒有人要來,是嗎?對,就是我們的商品其實還有很多的限制就像我們這次我們就請保險局就放寬了我們這個OIU的管理辦法裡面對商品設計,我們有新的商品如果你的商品沒有競爭力,沒有吸引力來這邊設的成本又很高,然後又沒有客人"},{"start":14412.856,"end":14438.103,"text":"那就不會有人來嘛這是不一樣這是我們的客人不會只瞄準一個地方是不能只有一個項目跟對象所以說我們這次就是是一個新的完全全新的方向而且我們這次的OIU不是單打獨鬥我們這次呢是要跟OBU跟OSU一起大家一起來變成亞洲的資產管理是的現在我就叫您定出您的目標未來"},{"start":14438.903,"end":14463.558,"text":"10年後我們再來看您今天所說的話看能不能做得到,您有沒有具體的設定的目標因為過去的基期很低啦,因為主要是我們成長會很高我覺得應該會成長很高,按照這個基期來看的話因為我們馬上會有新的產品出來,而且再加上我們新開放的一些業務好啦,10年前那個目標至少要完成之外再加一倍啦,這樣有沒有很難"},{"start":14464.383,"end":14485.73,"text":"不難所以這個就是比十年前的目標完成之外再加一倍至少這是你的底線這個我不做預期我只是說過去在這一塊裡面我們還是要做市場的嘗試我只是說成長而且能夠有顯著的成長是不難的如果亞洲資產管理公司我們其實都希望什麼亞太營運中心 亞洲什麼"},{"start":14486.63,"end":14511.336,"text":"其實台灣喊很久,但是我們自己的法規某個程度其實沒有國際化,沒有辦法跟其他的城市或其他的國家做充分的競爭這才是今天要修這個法的原因嗎?如果我們要變成國際化,尤其是金融自由化,我們必須要有相應的所謂的管理上面的調整"},{"start":14511.736,"end":14517.687,"text":"當然如果說我已經有注意到的話如果這些細節我們放寬的規定我們單單高雄專區我們就放寬了"},{"start":14518.931,"end":14547.416,"text":"所以我覺得台灣其實是有機會的但是我們其實尤其在香港它黑化了以後它現在其實我們應該把這個位置搶過來那現在大部分被新加坡搶走嘛那我們是不是把它搶回來確實確實我想這個是國人一致的方向啦因為我們希望讓我們的金融市場有更大的活動空間沒錯所以我希望主委你的目標要定出來這個法案修了之後十年期的目標至少要有這個宏大的願景嘛"},{"start":14548.296,"end":14563.702,"text":"這個願景就是接下來不管誰來當主委未來的十年大家一起努力的方向這個可能需要給我們立法院一個具體的數字好嗎好的第二個部分就是我們最近一直在討論終於看到金管會要把所謂的"},{"start":14564.802,"end":14581.499,"text":"融資公司將要公告在金融消費者保護法了,對吧?對,是的好,所以第一階段看起來只有14家有4大家之外的14家他們上市集團的下游4家上市集團公司,分科的子公司第二階段是銀行轉投資的13家公司,對"},{"start":14584.582,"end":14606.7,"text":"第三階段是有工會的小型其他融資公司15家所以總共大概44家差不多40家左右所以你覺得我們的融資註定公司只有44家嗎其實這是一個好問題因為什麼其實我想在台灣很難有人說得出台灣融資公司有幾家因為主要是這個邊界非常不明確很多是一般的公司但他可能只是做了"},{"start":14607.721,"end":14621.053,"text":"融資 但是加租賃的他其實本質上不是一家所謂融資公司所以我的意思是說台灣絕對不會只有這44家在做嘛這其他的問題在於說我們現在"},{"start":14623.916,"end":14649.038,"text":"對能管的先管這個我同意該管的先管而且大型的我們管得到的先管但是管不到的它不等於它不存在就像我們之前的虛擬資產業者一樣所以它都在只是我們要怎麼去看待它監察院在4月的調查報告說金管會現行只有準備管理部分業者對於其他從事相同業務相同風險甚至數量更為龐大的民間融資公司沒有納管計畫"},{"start":14651.079,"end":14665.693,"text":"糾正了金管會所以主委這個不是我們想不管就可以不管接下來是我的問題是金融保護法它有點限制不是就說好我們不是該管不管本來其實像這些它都在啊"},{"start":14666.894,"end":14685.64,"text":"這個由誰來管適當我想全世界管這個東西我想委員也做過研究我理解所以我們希望說有個進程你要先管這個我們也沒有意見先納管沒有的部分現在還是丟給經濟部各安去協商我們有其他的法律在處理希望說接下去還是一樣"},{"start":14686.92,"end":14714.418,"text":"包括台北市政府法務部統計的它的消費申訴像中租控股旗下的重信融資它歷年上都是不去參加協商也就是納了金保法能不能夠解決這些問題當然如果說按照我們的金保法裡面的規定它就被強迫了當然但金保法有一個很嚴重的問題它只有在12萬以下對業者才有去處理你這個要不要提高呢這跟委員報告"},{"start":14717.621,"end":14734.96,"text":"金保法還有這個特殊的簡便等同於法院判決的效力那原來比如說我們現在提到以前的專法他若不是這個他還沒有所以金保法是好的所以我沒有意見嘛我說先納管所以現在12萬你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":14736.953,"end":14757.301,"text":"你要不要再做這些調整這是你金管會可以做的事這是所以我們會按照時機的需求因為這畢竟是已經限縮了現在隨便一個年輕人可能都借了幾十萬十二萬真的太低了沒有他有分兩個不同的類型一個是投資一個不是投資所以不是投資只是單純借錢這種買個機車的十二萬其實都太少"},{"start":14762.543,"end":14790.819,"text":"我的意思是說主委你要納金保法我沒有意見先管能管的但是這個部分要檢討如果可以的話金保法要拉高第二個部分是我們現在包括洗錢防治法我上次已經說了我們已經把融資租賃放在洗錢防治的對象是的那接下來還有我們要納管的所謂的虛擬資產是在什麼業者還有現在可能正在成立工會的P2P業者他將來可能都是類"},{"start":14792.199,"end":14804.172,"text":"金融機構的金融行為所以金保法這兩個業者我們有沒有同有沒有要朝鄉管理的方案這個就剛才講說比如說講P2P好P2P是一個"},{"start":14805.393,"end":14828.136,"text":"如果它涉及到P2P正在進行正在存在它也存在將來也會有糾紛我想我們會按照融資公司實施的情況再來看看怎麼樣把它所用的這部分不是要等人家是要現在就做好預防第二個就是虛擬制裁業者他們開始做登記制了那他們的爭議有沒有要納入禁包法"},{"start":14828.809,"end":14845.888,"text":"現在沒有還沒有 你要不要將來把它納入呢現在我們會來在專法來處理這是另外一個問題如果他們都幾乎等同金融行為的話其實很不一樣我想Vespa裡面跟我們的金融服務是很大的不同我想這點要特別特別的強調"},{"start":14847.049,"end":14870.098,"text":"接下來可能都會有類似的問題所以要不要納入金保法我們會審慎來思考這個問題啦我希望給我一個方向跟目標跟我們打算怎麼樣看待他這些是一個態度問題我們現在把他納管了登錄了然後接下來呢接下來是你要很嚴格的管理但是發生糾紛了我不處理"},{"start":14870.758,"end":14897.077,"text":"這不是很奇怪嗎只是他的性質跟我們的金融服務還是有點差有點不一樣所以可以我都沒有意見金管會希望你在一個月之內針對VASP業者針對P2P甚至將來的融資公司在金保法裡面的角度第二個金保法的所謂的強制力的12萬我覺得應該要有一些調整如果你今天要把它納管12萬對融資公司來說太低了"},{"start":14897.717,"end":14903.156,"text":"好嗎這我們會通盤來檢討這跟委員報告好一個月之內給我一個一分說明好謝謝"},{"start":14904.895,"end":14927.944,"text":"好 接著請鄭振權委員 鄭振權委員 鄭振權不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在蔡育瑜 蔡育瑜 蔡育瑜委員不在"},{"start":14928.664,"end":14957.768,"text":"今日的登記花園委員均與詢答完畢本日會議作成如下的決議說明跟詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另外要求期限者從期鎖定三 委員林楚英廖先祥所提的書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關的部會以書面答覆"},{"start":14958.468,"end":14985.461,"text":"是國際金融業務條例部分條文修正草案等八案還有這個證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案等九案另則其繼續審查本日會議議程已進行完畢倘若有不在場的委員補題書面的一個質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理 散會"}]}},{"id":"161941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161941","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24876900ff55a2ac3cafe3e41e2f2b0d30d7c4f69b4c130d77c2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:16:33 - 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謝謝楚茵委員那"},{"start":168.223,"end":173.595,"text":"接著請鍾嘉斌委員說明提案要旨鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員"}]}},{"id":"161940","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161940","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f248d458b705edde805afe3e41e2f2b0d30d7c4f69b4c130d779a2554e42ef972245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:12:49 - 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有一半以上是希望能夠延攬國際醫療的學者來加入我們台灣的高等教育這樣子非常好希望看到有教育部有做這樣的準備這樣子我們繼續往下一個議題來看就是在"},{"start":261.641,"end":271.752,"text":"剛才已經解凍的部分 書面報告的第三案對於新南向產學國際專班這一部分我還是有一些問題想要詢問在於說在這個來台就學的辦法當中他說不得委由校外的機構法人團體來做辦理"},{"start":278.78,"end":295.835,"text":"那這些當然是你們想要大力的去打擊包括的是像有些仲介的這部分他包括是說有些學校有跟仲介有合作那這些部分有沒有關於這個相關的對學生學校跟這個仲介有合作的這個學校的這樣的一個數字跟名單就說他們是跟仲介去招生的不是自己到外國去招生的這部分"},{"start":305.16,"end":325.311,"text":"跟委員報告因為確實如果委託特定的仲介團體來我們事實上是違反我們相關規定那你們有去吵到我們目前也有學校就因為這樣我們就把這個班就停止他招生那有哪些學校你不方便我想這一個那就私下公布好不好私下私下來跟委員報告因為這是我們可以繼續再追蹤下去我進來以後就特別事實上這教育部過去就一直在做"},{"start":330.114,"end":334.696,"text":"我在這邊為了這個產學產系專班我知道你花了很多的時間我們有這個國教署跟計時師聯合去對我看到你的這個努力啦但是我覺得還是有些部分我還透過這次的解凍報告當中我來做一下詢問"},{"start":346.062,"end":355.195,"text":"那你們在報告當中有說呢要去補助學校對聘任的這個熟悉學生國語語文的專責人員要聘這些人員但是你們費用是怎麼樣整體預算是怎麼規劃的對在這些部分"},{"start":363.886,"end":383.084,"text":"因為你沒有預算下去 你說人員的話可能是一個空話是 跟委員報告我們國際專修部的學生第一年就是來台灣學華語我們希望他能夠華語至少要到A2以上所以我們補助學校一個學生用五萬元的華語訓練的費用來提供給我們的學校"},{"start":385.506,"end":392.411,"text":"把這些學生華語的能力一定要達到第一年結束一定要達到A度讓教師去教他就對了讓華語教師去教這些學生是要具有華語教師能力的人才可以教我就知道這部分你說一個人是五萬元那非常好"},{"start":405.581,"end":417.633,"text":"我們目前的一個數據大概各個學校在第一年的華語教育大概通過率大概有85%如果他沒有辦法達到我們就請他直接這個回他的一個科學回國那第二個部分呢就是說因為我在做這個"},{"start":423.139,"end":433.527,"text":"質詢的時候有發現到這是一個跨部會的包括的是還有衛福部還包括的是勞動部甚至還包括有經濟部這些部分那你們的跨部會有這個合作機制怎麼樣去讓這個流財的這個計畫這邊能夠怎麼協調跟分工啊"},{"start":442.711,"end":444.813,"text":"跟委員報告在行政院底下我們有一個擴大招收外國學生這樣的一個跨部會的會議那裡面就剛剛有提到我們這幾個部會做分工做分工以經濟部來講他們當然是針對後續廠商要提供一些實習的場域"},{"start":463.373,"end":483.385,"text":"那勞動部當然就是來提供我們如何保障這些學生實習跟攻讀的一些權益那教育部的部分就是針對如何去海外去延攬這一些學生來台灣就學所以其實部會都有在做這樣的一個會議那這個會議的主召開是由我們國發會來做各部會的一個協調會議以上好 謝謝"},{"start":490.689,"end":514.229,"text":"那另外一部分就是說學生他如果留台他畢業之後留台的工作或返回母國作為我國台商之用有沒有相關的績效的這樣的機制去做這個部分我想應該留下來這邊能不能提供給本辦公室是好 跟委員報告新南向產專有我們的留台率還蠻高的這些詳細的數字會後我再提供給委員謝謝謝謝市長 謝謝署長"},{"start":518.032,"end":519.854,"text":"那下面另外一個問題我們今天要針對到的是討論案的第三案就關於營養午餐的這個解凍專案報告這部分那這邊也許我們看到的是在這裡呢看到的是在3月20號的時候那我有群打那個時候"},{"start":536.867,"end":550.658,"text":"市長他有回覆到這部分就是說他未來呢重點是要再找地方政府來協商嘛那我們知道是財政收支發分法也是通過了等等的那我想請問一下那目前有沒有是跟地方政府協商那進行到什麼狀況 部長"},{"start":552.66,"end":579.881,"text":"跟委員報告當財化法的一個方向定案以後我們就會找地方政府來協商但事實上目前在有關營養午餐的部分因為來自於各地方這一個政府他們對營養午餐的看法仍舊沒有共識所以我們在這個部分中央除了這一個有定有一些規範以外給予經費支持補助以外那目前"},{"start":605.031,"end":629.859,"text":"你們說的那個裁劃法的部分是指的是等到在釋憲在結束後嗎還是說怎麼樣裁劃法是等到釋憲結果才出現才會決定嗎教育部還是一個行政院一個團隊整體行政院裡面到最後的一個政策決定以後我們才能夠有一個依循好把這一些整個資源裡面看怎麼樣去重新做一些調整分配所以包括你們布版的這個"},{"start":632.226,"end":655.311,"text":"營養午餐或是說 上次你們去年的時候有一個高級中等以下學校的午餐及營養消費條例這個方向還是會延遲到說會把它擴升到高中就是可以進入到營養午餐的供應對象了是嗎還是往這個方向去推 讓行政院版的會出現嗎目前我們當然因為這個營養午餐中小學還是屬於地方自治的一個權限裡面"},{"start":656.371,"end":680.775,"text":"那當然各地方縣市政府他對營養午餐的一個提供他們可能有不同的一個教育階段有不同的一些看法所以這個部分我們目前還是以這個尊重地方他因為財政的一個財政的一個狀況也都不太一樣所以是不是要供餐到高中職這我想這個我們還是保留尊重這個地方的一個"},{"start":681.375,"end":701.739,"text":"因為你們的布板送到行政院的事實上就已經是高級中學現在說可能因為財化法還有地方的需求等等有時候我們在條例上當然會把它因為有一些地方確實有做高中職並不是每一個縣市所以我們在法源上是不是讓它有依據但是各地方自主"},{"start":702.419,"end":721.65,"text":"本以他的財政本以他對人才培育的一些想像那我想這個部分我們保留地方的這個尊重地方的一個自治好謝謝那我最重要還是把我們現在民眾黨的一個部分的這個需求跟大家說明一下就是說要把這個權責希望這個已經也變成教育部在跟地方協商的時候一個重點"},{"start":722.11,"end":738.279,"text":"當然是說他公餐要有這個全責的一個明確啦然後呢他的品質他食品的部分要安全要保障食農教育也是應該要有弱勢的部分也要保障跟偏鄉的這邊監督跟激勵機師都要具備好那就希望說往這個方向去進行好謝謝委員我們的我們目前的做法就跟委員的這一個主張是一致的好OK好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":749.062,"end":753.44,"text":"好 我們謝謝劉淑冰委員的發言 請部長請回"}]}},{"id":"161955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f242deca0d17fcc89b4e795f59f7b69f6aed7c4f69b4c130d77a1c492a21a7eb66e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:45:32 - 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謝謝主席今天審查這個托育專法其實是社會各界都期待已久的一個專法那在我自己的版本裡面除了針對這個凱凱案其實大家之前也都在討論這個保姆的機制要如何精進所以在我的版本裡面有納入這個保姆違規祭典制就是把保姆的違規行為造成的危害程度應該要列不同的等級然後來祭典"},{"start":30.002,"end":50.788,"text":"列為一到三點如果兩年內累計點數達六點就要暫停收拖如果五年內又違規那暫停收拖要打兩次如果又再違規然後遭記點的保姆就必須要面臨費政退場這樣子的結果那這個是其實很多委員的版本包括院版裡面也都有針對保姆記點制這樣子的討論"},{"start":52.768,"end":80.235,"text":"那在我的版本裡面比較特別的是我因一個其實全台灣也常常在發生的就是藉口上市的托育機構的這件事情我有提出了一些修法那我講一下這個案例因為這個其實是在高雄發生的當時有一個托嬰機構的負責人他因為就是有涉及虐待兒童然後導致有非常多的嬰兒就是身上有瘀青甚至是給他發霉的奶嘴等等不當的情勢那當時我揭露之後"},{"start":82.455,"end":101.052,"text":"我們高雄市的社會局當然有依法裁罰然後予以停業可是呢過了五年到了今年我又發現這個機構他們竟然用他丈夫的名義在原址重新開業那當然社會局其實也都知道這樣的情況但是沒有任何的法律可以讓他去不給這個機構他的開業的這個依據"},{"start":106.357,"end":130.874,"text":"所以他還是開業了可是開業之後他還是又發生了虐因的事情所以像這樣的機制到底要如何去建立防範說他原址重新開業結果是用藉口上市甚至是找人頭讓他開機構這樣的事情發生所以我為了要杜絕這樣子的不肖業者我有提出幾個讓他們不要規避監管的一個方式一個是事前防堵就是在"},{"start":131.374,"end":150.879,"text":"事前你合可這個讓這個設立許可的時候地方政府有更大的審查權包括說他們有明確的事證足以證明雖然他是藉口上市但是他有危害兒童的權益之餘他就可以駁回這個申請這個是事前防堵再來事中監管就是這樣子的機構很明顯已經是高風險的機構了包括說他原址重開包括說他的負責人的親屬或是他找各式各樣的人"},{"start":160.402,"end":182.619,"text":"然後他已經是涉及虐童案囉但是他還是這樣子借來重開那這樣子的機構主管機關你就應該要去多查核啊怎麼會又讓他發生虐因的事情呢這個都是要去揭露才可以保障家長的知情權第三個要事後懲處就是這個機構如果他明知或可得而知有虐童的記錄了像我剛剛講的這個例子"},{"start":184.54,"end":199.015,"text":"然後甚至是他已經被廢照了他已經這個機構被廢止了結果他還在繼續照顧兒童就算他不是正式的聘僱主管機關也有權要去廢止這個設立的許可才對"},{"start":199.716,"end":215.606,"text":"就是讓他事後的這個懲處的機制可以更明確所以以上是我針對這種不肖業者建民重開的這種方式提出的一些建議也希望進行實質審查的時候衛福部可以給予明確的回應那如果可以的話我希望這樣的樣態必須要明確的處理謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24423cc4bceb391781e795f59f7b69f6aed7c4f69b4c130d771d80c1a84178aff75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:42:09 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09:45:26","影片長度":"00:03:17","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T09:42:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T09:45:26+08:00","duration":197,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.755343750000002,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.56471875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.614093750000002,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.096593750000004,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.862218750000004,"end":65.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.48034375,"end":68.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.72909375,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.94034375000001,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.25221875000001,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.31471875000001,"end":190.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":195.83159375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.925,"end":20.806,"text":"過去在我們的兒少權法裡面那我覺得訂定的針對於居家事實上在兒少權法在一百年訂的時候大概也"},{"start":21.67,"end":50.733,"text":"只有5條是針對於居家保母那托嬰中心呢大概也只有4條可是我們相對於去看到2到6歲事實上是整個幼照法在管理總共訂了66條它的強度是比較強的可是相對於如果今天如果2到6歲要這麼多的強度這麼強的法規在做規管的時候為什麼托嬰中心0到2歲事實上是比較低齡的甚至居家保母又是在家比較封閉的反而只有"},{"start":52.014,"end":73.896,"text":"5條4條在做規管所以的確托育服務專法有存在的必要性就是另立專法來否則幼照法66條 教保人員條例的話53條那加上政府因為少子化而更多的要讓家長送托到托嬰中心送托到居家保母的鼓勵的政策裡邊"},{"start":74.724,"end":93.341,"text":"所以有准公甚至公共化的這樣子的一個要件可是也製造了一些問題也就是不當對待的事情頻傳所以勢必有一個專法來做歸管事實上是比較完備的所以我自己提出來的版本裡邊大概有幾個重點也就是"},{"start":94.208,"end":105.079,"text":"這次凱凱案可以看到如果一般性的保姆在做管理的時候居家托育服務中心的一個管規管的"},{"start":105.689,"end":130.354,"text":"甚至管理輔導不會是有一個計畫來所以我們會希望在居福中心這一塊應該要納入在法律裡面去做管理另外一個是今天過去也是很常是一般安置跟景安跟我們的收出養的前端的過渡期的安置都放在一般性的居福中心管理的保姆所以我認為未來也要做分級管理"},{"start":130.994,"end":136.137,"text":"那過去兒燒權法49條講的15個樣態裡邊第一項總共15款的樣態裡邊常常沒有辦法去處理家外不當對待兒虐的問題所以在我的版本裡邊我也會去強調要去把我們的不當對待體罰這些明列清楚所以比照幼照法的一些要件裡邊"},{"start":155.368,"end":184.391,"text":"去做強調為什麼因為我覺得今年年到兩歲事實上政府在鼓勵公共化或者是在催生要期待孩子送出來的越來越多尤其是因應雙薪家庭的話那真的要有一個專法來針對於我們年到兩歲的孩子真的讓家長可以放在保母家或托孕中心能夠安心事實上我們也期待事實上是在推動相關政策少子化政策的時候"},{"start":185.474,"end":194.83,"text":"這個對應的政策應該要努力讓我們的孩子們真的在台灣這塊土地上能夠能生能養然後健康平安長大謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f248c18ada79b09e91ce795f59f7b69f6aed7c4f69b4c130d77aa8d9cd6bb4fabdd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"09:36:59 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收費標準可是同樣的托育照顧 勞動條件卻不一樣"},{"start":212.832,"end":227.68,"text":"那甚至水準高低不一樣那品質也不一樣在這種狀況裡面我們的版本另外有一個是跟行政院的版本也不一樣的就是說我們的居家托育的服務中心這個中心他的業務職長到底要做什麼應該是要做什麼他的業務職長不明所以我們缺乏法律條文那我們的版本希望明定他的業務職長要法治化而不是"},{"start":242.148,"end":245.751,"text":"政府召之即來會之即去然後協助政府的角色絕對不是他的中心他的業務執掌要法電話另外我們對於這個法則還有對於這個人員的資格和義務及托育服務的管理還有居家托育的要求跟這個"},{"start":265.569,"end":286.785,"text":"要照顧的人跟送託的人要簽訂書面契約辦理一般傷病及緊急事故應處理的一些基本保險等等我們的版本都有這樣的不同總而言之 也就是希望我們第一個就是說 事權給他統一進來這一部法律裡面而要符合這個社會的期待"},{"start":287.666,"end":302.041,"text":"不及格的違規的一定要連動到處分而這個處分是有效的處分可以改進的處分讓我們的托育的品質改進而且可以更保障幼兒的受托的品質和他的安全謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f247b1603e7866e686b1eb1d05981d0dcbfb291a8f6a096732c0058b4a0f6ef72a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:06:32 - 10:13:03","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等16案。（詳如附件1）二、處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等 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主委好 不好意思喔主委今年國安局有出版一份"},{"start":26.394,"end":44.68,"text":"共諜案的滲透手法分析那其實我們有注意到說原本比較多的是這種大型的共諜案件現役的比例跟這個退役的比例來講的話可能現役的受到的拘束比較多所以"},{"start":46.26,"end":62.288,"text":"比較沒有那麼的頻繁那還是以退役的會被吸收的可能性比較高一點那但是根據這個各個不同的部門的報導後來整合起來其實都有在上升的趨勢特別是以退役拉現役的這個狀況是層出不窮"},{"start":65.202,"end":84.756,"text":"那在這個退役啦 現役的狀況由於他們過去在他們所屬的這個機關也好或者是他們的部門因為有就是人與人之間的過去的信任所以或是是學長學弟之間的這種情誼所以反而在一些重要的不該出現的場合"},{"start":85.496,"end":107.89,"text":"不該出現的場域 比方說已經退役的軍官不可以在基地的哪一個部分出現但是因為他過去大家不管是兵營的這些軍官士官其實都認識會不會會有類似這樣通融的狀況不知道主委有沒有宣導一下說在退役的之後他有哪些準則要去遵循 確保這樣的事情不發生"},{"start":108.49,"end":130.029,"text":"我們針對國安局前段時間它也有發布就是中共對台灣滲透破壞的管道有五大管道 四大做法這些內容都非常的詳盡然後陳文貴委員剛剛的指導所提到的也有很多的案例從這些都可以感覺的到中共某某日期"},{"start":131.23,"end":151.307,"text":"那麼他這些不法滲透的手段非常的多非常的頻繁所以我們我跟委員報告我們絕大多數的退役軍人退役外面都是守法忠於國家忠於人民的但是有少數可能是受到剛剛委員所提到的這些案例裡面這些場景的一些影響所以"},{"start":152.108,"end":180.441,"text":"我們目前做了兩大部分一個除了修法之外鞏固國家的安全對中共的不法施政有一些嚇阻就修我們輔導條例32條我們增訂了第一項的第四款就是停止我們的權益這一塊就是符合比例原則除了這部分當然就是加強宣導就是要堅定我們退役軍人愛國的初衷忠於國家忠於人民堅定愛國信念這一段我們平常都在"},{"start":181.161,"end":202.716,"text":"不斷地在做因為我們有16個容服處19個容服處每個容服處在各地我們都透過容服處來服務組組長不斷地宣導和宣教堅定我們退役軍人愛國的初心以上跟委員做說明謝謝主委那另外一部分我覺得我看到很多我們退役的這些將領"},{"start":203.777,"end":218.406,"text":"我覺得很可惜他們不管是在海軍或者是空軍他們過去曾經受到國家的栽培那出國深造那其實不管對戰略或者是整個國家的整體的這個地緣政治都非常的理解才對"},{"start":219.306,"end":238.925,"text":"所以我們會常常看到像是美國的這些這個退役的這些海軍上將像是阿奎利諾這些你可以看到他們在各個重要的一些國際的場合都可以持續發表對美國國力有幫助的一些意見甚至有一些戰略上面的看法"},{"start":239.505,"end":258.471,"text":"可是因為發覺到我們的這些退役將領比較少有這樣子的狀況出現更多的大概就是在一些媒體上面來去強烈的替我國的敵對的這個勢力來去鼓吹那反而是"},{"start":259.491,"end":274.163,"text":"把我們自己國家的這個武力如果有些時候是建議就算了有些時候看起來不是建議而是就是貶低不知道主委你對這樣子的論知或者是這樣子的看法你覺得有什麼方式可以扭轉"},{"start":276.96,"end":293.652,"text":"報告委員這是我剛剛跟您報告的我想我們退役軍人拿我們退伍國來講我們有30萬多人我想絕大多數都是一本初衷忠於國家忠於人民的愛護國家的那少數個人所"},{"start":294.733,"end":312.211,"text":"想法不同所發表的這些言論我想畢竟應該是少數我想他們應該也會受到大多數人的檢驗我們持續做我剛剛跟您報告的這些宣導的一些工作強化他們的愛國信念謝謝主委"},{"start":313.772,"end":333.241,"text":"再來就是關於退役就是剛才我提到的這些退役的將領那我們接下來談退役的軍官那為什麼要談退役的軍官其實在烏俄戰爭之後有很多重要的一些經驗不管是在戰場上面的經驗或者是說在後勤補給生產製造"},{"start":336.802,"end":359.543,"text":"我認為說在烏克蘭的這些退役的這些軍官他可以作為我們很重要的資訊或者是說未來的精進的一個來源那我不知道退伏會有沒有機會能夠去跟其實甚至不是烏克蘭因為我們剛剛沒有邦交甚至也沒有這個處管我想唯一大概只有TITRA在那邊有涉戰但是在"},{"start":362.265,"end":387.358,"text":"我認為啦 就是至少在研究這方面是不是可以請杜甫惠來思考一下有沒有機會跟他們做相關的交流他不變得要在檯面上 可以在檯面下謝謝委員指導好 謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝關廷委員 主委請回接下來有請王定宇委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"161946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f245a7560379800c619e795f59f7b69f6aed7c4f69b4c130d776a1a6418575a0b1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"09:28:04 - 09:32:36","影片長度":"00:04:32","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T09:28:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T09:32:36+08:00","duration":272,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":27.773468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.891593750000002,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.75221875000001,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.00221875,"end":269.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.55409375,"end":271.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.955,"end":26.116,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉那我們今天排審這個兒童托育服務法非常感謝趙偉我想凱凱安讓社會關注到現行幼兒的照顧及教育的問題那其中未滿兩歲的兒童是由衛福部來主管依照兒童及少年福利及權益保障法及其相關的法規規範"},{"start":28.719,"end":56.539,"text":"兩歲以上未滿六歲的兒童歸教育部主管依幼兒教育及照顧法還有其他的相關法規來提供教育及照顧兼具之教保服務但是相較於兩歲以下對不起 相較之下兩歲到六歲的兒童教保服務現在一定有專法但是0到2歲未有專法所以為了保護未滿二歲的幼兒受託及家長的權益確實有必要"},{"start":57.559,"end":70.826,"text":"極其必要來制定這個托育的專法以明確的來規範不管是輔導或是管理機制那除了凱凱案之外我想大家都知道最近台中的豐原的托嬰中心發現了發生了這個不當對待嬰幼兒的事件那前幾天"},{"start":76.449,"end":95.754,"text":"台中市政府發出所謂裁罰史上最重的處分誠信的托育人員對14名幼童反覆施以不當及施虐的行為惡性重大裁罰最重60萬元並公告姓名30年內禁止從事任何托育相關工作但是我要問的是這樣夠嗎"},{"start":97.654,"end":108.842,"text":"大家應該共同 社會應該共同再來討論我們還可以做什麼那當然還有其他的另外兩位涉及不當對待的部分這兩位的托育人員也被"},{"start":111.245,"end":128.774,"text":"財閥而且20年內不得從事任何托育的相關工作涉案的托嬰中心嚴重的管理疏失所以被財閥加重40萬元並勒令8月1號起停辦公告托嬰中心名稱及負責人姓名"},{"start":130.095,"end":148.857,"text":"但是事件之後呢我們要問社會及父母們想要知道的是當孩子發生不當照顧被對待如此的這個嚴重的一個行為的時候受到那麼深的傷害那不管是在居家或是托嬰中心我們要如何在法規機制"},{"start":150.519,"end":171.007,"text":"預防及早發現 發現之後導政在導政之後又如何協助家長跟孩子受到政府及相關單位的關心跟協助我在提剛剛提到的這個台中的豐原托嬰中心現在雖然台中市政府勒令托嬰中心8月1號停辦"},{"start":172.267,"end":175.468,"text":"還有現在不知道該怎麼處置的有10多位的幼童在等待轉介當中那我們也看到新聞報導裡面有家長表示現在豐原周遭的托育中心都滿根本沒有辦法轉介而必須轉到更"},{"start":187.854,"end":192.196,"text":"遠的一個區域的這個托嬰中心面對這樣的狀況不管是過渡期或者是托嬰中心停辦之後的這個轉托銜接的時間如何縮短專人的諮詢協助媒合機制如何更有效率及優化"},{"start":205.12,"end":220.306,"text":"都直接影響了這個父母家庭上班通勤接送還有呢我們要如何幫忙年輕的爸爸媽媽年輕家庭撐過去在這一次的立法行動裡面我希望社會大眾跟我們的同事們都能夠呢好好的來討論這個部分那現代社會面"},{"start":224.507,"end":240.513,"text":"對年輕父母都各自需要工作是雙薪家庭以及現在家庭的規模日益的核心化縮減的環境那政府除了要強化各項的托育補助育兒今天更要持續的來協助打造良好的"},{"start":240.913,"end":268.204,"text":"一個育兒環境我想全面的提升托育服務的品質並明確的規範托育了相關人員的資格義務更要強化托育機構的設立以及管理我想才能夠回應社會多元的需求也才能夠真正讓今天我們要排審兒童托育服務法真正立法之後呢能夠的執行能夠落實能夠真的打造一個更優質的托育環境謝謝"},{"start":270.592,"end":271.607,"text":"好 谢谢何星军"}]}},{"id":"161942","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161942","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24c1557380859ede6de795f59f7b69f6aed7c4f69b4c130d7762257a4ee7158f175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:24:58 - 09:27:59","影片長度":"00:03:01","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T09:24:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T09:27:59+08:00","duration":181,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.199093749999999,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.95846875,"end":5.0934687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.527843750000001,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.06221875,"end":177.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.73659375000001,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.52846875,"end":111.00096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.09721875000001,"end":116.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.19409375000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.91846875000002,"end":181.28534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.284,"end":20.831,"text":"謝謝主席今天排兒童托育服務專法的審查那兒童托育服務專法呢本席在去年就已經提出來那為什麼要提出兒童托育服務專法主要是我們希望讓0到2歲"},{"start":23.774,"end":28.319,"text":"這個階段的孩子他無論是在居家照顧或者是在機構照顧或者是在公共托育家園互助式托育等地方所受到的照顧呢都可以透過立法得到更"},{"start":37.629,"end":64.938,"text":"完善的一个保护而这样子的一个保护呢我们有必要把它另定专法然后把以前的一些相关办法都提升到这一个法律的位阶那我提出来的版本呢有几个重点第一个就是强调弱势优先的精神那我想CRC里面已经有特别强调就是不歧视原则而且弱势照顾优先"},{"start":66.158,"end":86.321,"text":"所以呢我也把這樣的精神定在這樣的一個辦法裡面第二個是我們都知道現在的兩歲零到二歲滿兩歲之後那他這個現在兩歲專班不足所以呢孩子其實面臨到很大的困難他沒有辦法被收拖所以在我的版本裡面呢我也"},{"start":87.142,"end":97.471,"text":"特別提出來就是除了零到二歲的收託原來的規定之外可以讓他延長就是你在保母或者是在托嬰機構可以彈性延長到三歲那可以去緩衝現在很多的父母親沒有辦法在孩子兩歲滿直接就進到幼兒園"},{"start":107.36,"end":124.387,"text":"這樣子的一個困境第三個很重要的是吹哨者保護條款之前我們看到在幼兒園發生的這樣的一個毛俊生他的這樣的一個性侵的一個案件那就可以看到說如果在機構裡面沒有這些相關的"},{"start":127.528,"end":133.869,"text":"工作人員勇於提出檢舉的話那事實上這個孩子可能遭受到這樣的一個性侵或者是被偷拍的傷害是沒有辦法及早被發現的所以吹哨者保護條款非常重要我也納入了我的版本那最後是監管員的部分我想這個部分是大家有共識的希望除了現在的0到2歲的機構裡面"},{"start":154.333,"end":177.001,"text":"他可以要保留這一些影像資料之外那將來透過監管雲德設施可以確保這些影像不會任意被刪除而且可以保存我想透過這樣的一個兒童托育服務專法的一個訂定我們可以針對零到二歲的孩子給予他們一個更完整的權益的保障以上 謝謝好 謝謝王允德提案書"}]}},{"id":"161947","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161947","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f249939f66d28335878e795f59f7b69f6aed7c4f69b4c130d77635ed267ed69460b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"09:32:43 - 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央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算凍結案依參謀本部第四目向下軍事單位裝備零附件固製及保修預算凍結10%專案報告案"},{"start":1787.758,"end":1807.928,"text":"二 军备局第七幕第一节向下国军营设及设施改建基金预算冻结30%专案报告案决议第一案至第二案处理完均均统一冻结并提报愿会三 国防部主管预算冻结案等47案决议以上47案处理完均均统一冻结并提报愿会宣读完毕"},{"start":1810.921,"end":1837.683,"text":"好 請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好 那我們議事錄確定現在我們介紹在場委員 陳永康委員林楚瑩委員陳俊宇委員好 那我們介紹列席官員那我們今天也有喬委會也有這一個退伏會那我們先從喬委會開始喬委會委員長徐家青"},{"start":1840.357,"end":1851.081,"text":"副委員長 阮昭雄主任秘書 榮佑爾綜合觀花處處長 郭淑珍僑民處處長 賴麗穎僑教處處長 林紀榮僑商處處長 游凱全"},{"start":1859.711,"end":1884.867,"text":"僑生處處長 王一儒秘書室主任 邱惠燕主技室主任 林秀燕資訊室主任 白忠光僑務通訊社社長 吳曉竹我們這個參與海外信用保證基金的董事長 林保錫接下來這個退府會主任委員 顏德發"},{"start":1889.306,"end":1901.77,"text":"副主任委員 副鎮城副主任委員 吳志揚主任秘書 簡世峰綜合文化處處長 栗鋼服務照護處處長 曹東發救養養護處處長 陳向寶就學就業處副處長 沈立忠"},{"start":1919.442,"end":1928.049,"text":"舊醫保健處處長 劉俊正事業管理處處長 楊長正退儲己賦處處長 羅馬可行政管理處處長 張光宇人事處處長 吳彥均政風處處長 王文信會計處處長 蔡靜滿統計資訊處處長 張志強"},{"start":1949.164,"end":1970.389,"text":"法規會執行秘書 陳敬如台北榮總院長 陳威銘台中榮總院長 傅雲慶高雄榮總院長 陳金順屏東榮總院長 王瑞祥行政院主計總處專門委員 張正輝"},{"start":1976.021,"end":1987.46,"text":"那我們請議事人員宣讀報告及討論事項報告事項二處理委員會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議僑務委員會主管預算提出書面報告後使得動資等13案"},{"start":1989.844,"end":2016.213,"text":"第一案資訊軟硬體設備費預算凍結十萬元案二業務費預算凍結二十萬元案第三案研究發展及專案業務預算凍結五十萬元案第四案加強僑社聯繫及輔助舉辦多元活動預算凍結五十萬元案第五案一般事務費預算凍結五十萬元案第六案業務費預算凍結五十萬元案第七案海外華語文學習深耕計劃預算凍結一百萬元案"},{"start":2016.943,"end":2041.94,"text":"第八案,联系海外侨台商组织并协助推展业务预算冻结20万元案。第九案,培训侨台商经贸人才协助侨台商企业发展预算冻结50万元案。第十案,海外华人经济资讯汇收并促进海内外商机交流预算冻结10万元案。第十一案,举办侨物新闻资讯及传媒服务预算冻结50万元案。第十二案,"},{"start":2043.639,"end":2060.993,"text":"決議第一項預算凍結案 密件第十三案 決議第二項預算凍結案 機密三 處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主管預算提出書面報告後時的凍資等九案"},{"start":2061.96,"end":2087.572,"text":"第一案 第四幕向下基本行政工作維持預算凍結20萬元案第二案 第六幕向下醫事人力培訓與專業教育訓練預算凍結100萬元案第三案 第六幕向下安寧緩和醫療照護與推廣預算凍結500萬元案第四案 第七幕榮民安養及養護預算凍結100萬元案第五案 第七幕向下基本行政工作維持之一般事務費預算凍結200萬元案第六案"},{"start":2090.453,"end":2101.402,"text":"第九目向下提升私自照顧量能長照萬我園區中長城計畫預算凍結兩百萬元案第七案第九目向下房屋建築及設備費預算凍結兩百萬元案第八案第九目向下惠本部房舍整建工程預算凍結一百萬元案"},{"start":2110.146,"end":2123.453,"text":"第九案 第十一幕 退除與官兵退休給付預算凍結一千萬元案討論事項 處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議僑務委員會主管預算凍結案等三案第一案 媒體政策及業務宣導費預算凍結一百萬元案 第二案"},{"start":2133.994,"end":2158.654,"text":"擴大培育及流用僑生預算凍結400萬元案 第三案 業務費預算凍結300萬元案二 處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議 國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案一新增236項一般行政預算凍結10%專案報告案 二 國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管預算凍結案等30案"},{"start":2163.51,"end":2165.692,"text":"強復建第二案至第31案第二案"},{"start":2172.179,"end":2198.455,"text":"第一幕向下各種種籍其分院臨床教學與研究預算凍結兩百萬元案第三案第二幕向下業務費預算凍結一百五十萬元案第四案第三幕向下農民健保醫療部分負擔預算凍結五百萬元案第五案第四幕向下一般事務費預算凍結五十萬元案第六案第四幕向下一般事務費預算凍結十萬元案第七案第四幕向下業務費預算凍結一百萬元案第八案"},{"start":2199.255,"end":2213.909,"text":"第四目向下,獎補助費預算凍結二十萬元案。第九案,第四目向下,業務費預算凍結五十萬元案。第十案,第四目向下,單身亡僱農民善後、商帳及遺產管理作業中業務費預算凍結二十萬元案。第十一案,"},{"start":2214.449,"end":2243.929,"text":"第四目向下大陸地區旅費預算凍結三萬元案第十二案第四目向下一般事務費預算凍結五十萬元案第十三案第四目向下業務費預算凍結一百五十萬元案第十四案第五目向下基本行政工作維持預算凍結一百萬元案第十五案第五目向下業務費預算凍結一百萬元案第十六案第五目向下幹部在職及義難替代役訓練預算凍結五十四萬元案第十七案第五目向下資訊服務費預算凍結一百萬元案第十八案"},{"start":2244.409,"end":2261.18,"text":"第5目向下資訊軟硬體設備費預算凍結100萬元案第19案第5目向下對特種基金資補助預算凍結50萬元案第20案第6目農民醫療照護預算凍結100萬元案第21案第6目向下對農民及特定醫療體系資補助預算凍結200萬元案第22案第6目向下對農民及特定醫療體系資補助對特種基金資補助預算凍結100萬元案第23案"},{"start":2273.015,"end":2299.536,"text":"第6目向下長期照顧與身心障礙醫療復健服務預算凍結100萬元案第24案第6目向下公費救養及醫療補助預算凍結200萬元案第25案第6目向下高齡醫學發展與照護預算凍結200萬元案第26案第7目向下基本行政工作維持之其他業務租金預算凍結100萬元案第27案第7目向下基本行政工作維持中設備及投資預算凍結200萬元案第28案"},{"start":2302.398,"end":2318.672,"text":"第九目向下 退除一官兵職業訓練中心房舍整建工程預算凍結300萬元案第29案 第九目向下安養機構房舍及生活設施整建工程預算凍結200萬元案第30案 第九目向下服務機構車輛汰換之運輸設備費預算凍結20萬元案第31案 第九目向下安養機構車輛汰購預算凍結100萬元案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2334.022,"end":2349.166,"text":"好 那今天有報告事項這個關於報告事項二處理僑務委員會主管的預算凍結案中有提出書面報告後時的凍資這邊是13案那現在書面報告已經送交本會請問各位委員對於預算結凍有無異議沒有"},{"start":2351.767,"end":2351.907,"text":"沒有"},{"start":2370.188,"end":2387.922,"text":"沒有 好 那均同意動之 然後提報院會那這個還好討論事項 我們等到這個之後 詢答之後再來處理那我們現在請機關就其主管預算解凍案進行報告首先我們先請僑委會這個委員長徐家青上台報告"},{"start":2403.443,"end":2427.916,"text":"召委各位委員大家早安今天代表僑委會向各位委員進行第114年度預算結公案的報告承蒙各位委員長期對本會各項業務的支持與指導在此表達最誠摯的敬意與謝意本日列入報告事項的13案剛剛已承蒙大家通過那麼討論事項有計3案共800萬"},{"start":2431.418,"end":2446.126,"text":"連同前面的合計八百萬相關書面報告均已送大院在案僑務工作需考量僑區的需求以及依工作計畫適時的推動企需要相關資金費的援助才能發揮僑務在國家發展的關鍵角色"},{"start":2449.008,"end":2476.524,"text":"委員所關切的各項議題以舉建議本會軍會積極審慎的來處理並納入執行規劃中為了優化我們的僑務服務深化僑界與臺灣聯繫合作敬請各位委員一本長期以來對僑務工作的關注與支持繼續給予指教與鼓勵並同意解除上述各項解凍案以利本會進行相關的業務推動感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":2483.908,"end":2487.196,"text":"接著我們請退府會主任委員嚴德發上台報告"},{"start":2497.92,"end":2520.36,"text":"主席郭文仙敬大家好承蒙郭文仙敬对本会各项施政工作的指导跟支持仅致最崇高的敬意跟谢诚大院审查本会114年度单位的预算有关决议冻结44个案子相关解冻报告都已经送交大院其中包含报告事项有9个案子即2420万"},{"start":2522.202,"end":2546.562,"text":"讨论事项有专案报告一案即三亿七千七百二十九万以及书面报告经同意后使得动之三十个案即三千六百二十七万为持续推动本会服务照顾各项重要的事务敬请各位委员同意解除上述各项预算冻结案以本会业务的顺利推动"},{"start":2547.242,"end":2562.148,"text":"接續請本會就養處處長就解動的專案報告強化農家販賣機販售合格商品的機制測定作為向各位委員報告敬請指導與支持就養處處長就養處處長報告"},{"start":2575.841,"end":2593.652,"text":"販賣機設置情形及管理措施販賣機設置情形本會近年因應新冠肺炎除加強落實各項防疫及醫療措施外各容家亦持續精進服務照顧工作以兼顧住民身心狀態及維持生活便利"},{"start":2594.775,"end":2622.363,"text":"部分農家因地處偏遠或因應疫情無法外出等特殊情況以及服務百貨部為營業時住民及訪視之家屬購物需求建立農家販賣及服務機制本會深切體認食品安全對住民福祉的重要性將持續強化販賣及管理機制優化服務品質與管理效能確保住民的健康與滿意度"},{"start":2624.324,"end":2645.605,"text":"本會所屬16所農家,即有八德、嘉里、台南、屏東、花蓮5所農家共設置7台販賣機在現行管理措施方面1.依據食品安全衛生管理法規定食品業者需經登錄取得合法營業資格者,使能進駐農家設置販賣機"},{"start":2647.887,"end":2676.681,"text":"二 廠商專人負責維護與保養於補貨時檢查食品狀況及效期確保上架商品均為合格產品三 配合廠商進貨補貨時隨同進行抽查容加並派專人每週不定期查查增強食品把關機制四 於契約書中明定管理方式若發生食安問題廠商應負賠償及所有法律責任"},{"start":2679.785,"end":2685.132,"text":"3.販賣機全面普查 無所容加7台販賣機已於114年1月16日會同廠商開機檢視內裡庫存之飲料並照相佐證 無過期情形"},{"start":2695.27,"end":2720.953,"text":"二 精進作為制定管理程序規範督促農家訂定自動販賣及管理標準作業程序明確規範食品安全檢查流程及責任分工並張貼於販賣機上包括以下重點一 商品進貨流程明確規定廠商補貨時需檢查商品效期並執行先進先出的上架原則"},{"start":2721.934,"end":2744.804,"text":"二 日常檢查程序 農家指定專人負責定期檢查 確保販賣機內商品符合食品安全標準三 問題處理機制 明定廠商法律及賠償責任 針對問題商品除要求造價賠償外 立即執行下架與更換流程 並通知廠商及相關單位處理"},{"start":2747.12,"end":2751.989,"text":"2.強化抽查及追蹤機制,為進一步提升食品管理的嚴謹性與實效性。"},{"start":2753.991,"end":2780.771,"text":"要求農家不定期抽查並建立追蹤管制的機制確保販賣機內食品始終維持高標準的安全與品質設置檢查紀錄簿要求農家建立檢查紀錄簿詳細記錄每次查查的內容及結果便於後續追蹤與集合確保管理透明度並不定期與廠商捕獲時進行檢驗以確保食品安全"},{"start":2781.874,"end":2806.331,"text":"二不定期抽查本會不定期與廠商捕獲時進行抽查以確保食品監督常態化三定期教育訓練農家定期針對同仁及廠商舉辦食品安全教育訓練透過案例研討與經驗分享培養參訓人員對食品效期儲存條件的敏銳度增強風險意識及執行力"},{"start":2809.393,"end":2830.192,"text":"結語販賣及管理直接關係到住民及家屬的生活便利與食品安全本會將持續完善管理制度加強食品安全控管確保販賣及服務的安全性與便利性進一步提升農家住民與家屬的滿意度報告完畢懇請委員先進支持本會預算解凍"},{"start":2839.063,"end":2858.744,"text":"那位委員應該在這邊還沒有聽到那我們現在開始尋答本會委員4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請在10點半以前提出11點左右處理那我們現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":2870.452,"end":2876.115,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們先請許委員長好 委員長早好 委員長早陳委員長安我想先就緬甸的這個地震的問題來救救我們委員長"},{"start":2898.379,"end":2919.562,"text":"那在3月28號這個緬甸遭遇這個強震之後,所造成的當地嚴重的災損還有傷亡那在第一時間有許多的這個資訊都封閉了,難以得知實際的情形那事發到現在已經滿兩個月了那這個整個重建的進度似乎是遙遙無期"},{"start":2921.123,"end":2947.78,"text":"我們僑委會對於這個緬甸的這個僑胞、僑校、僑商受災還有重建的這個相關情形是否已經進行統整跟委員報告有關於僑商部分由於我們在仰光地區其實並不是在地震帶那99%的這個台商沒有受到任何損害那兩戶雖然在曼德厄地區由於是農民他比較郊區所以也沒有什麼受損"},{"start":2948.2,"end":2951.482,"text":"這是有關於台商部分那僑生的部分呢本會有統計在目前台灣就學的學生呢總共3999位那我們經過了25校的調查那麼有家庭因為房舍倒塌或是因為家人受傷或者傷亡者我們有進行2000到1萬元不等的每個月生活補助津貼那現在已經每個月發出將近28萬"},{"start":2974.572,"end":2980.636,"text":"的這個生活津貼的補助來協助這些受災戶的學生度過這段難關那至於橋校的部分呢我們也經過統整以後呢有一所需要全部重建就是受損最嚴重的曼德勒地區的北區那其餘的呢有需要有些修繕的部分那我們統整之後呢約總計需要200萬美元的這個"},{"start":3000.809,"end":3021.388,"text":"經費需求來進行整個橋校的重建或修復以上學校還沒復校吧目前也只有那個有一些部分可以開始復校像北區就完全沒辦法因為它整個倒塌了所以那個部分就暫時沒有在恢復上課要等到重建完畢以後才有機會"},{"start":3023.331,"end":3041.664,"text":"那我想再請教委員長,先前您也透露了緬甸的情況是在軍政府的高壓管理之下,國際的相關資源要進入的話非常的困難可以說是重重的阻礙,那也包含台灣在第一時間我們所動員的特收大隊"},{"start":3044.486,"end":3058.582,"text":"也不得其門而入那僑委會是否已經透過其他的管道的突破讓我們各界救助的相關善款還有物資能夠直接送達這個災區也可以順利的送達災民的手中"},{"start":3059.523,"end":3063.166,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實在這段時間當中將近兩個月我們是透過當地的台商就地的採購模式那麼來進行這個災區的物資的運送那這其中除了我們的台商之外也有幾個宗教團體也有協助這些物資的這個援助跟寄送那目前為止的管道都還是以這樣子的管道為主體"},{"start":3084.202,"end":3088.905,"text":"那這部分的這個宗教團體是因為他們在當地原來就已經有的組織脈絡然後再配合我們的台商系統所以每一到兩個禮拜還是都會定期在仰光地區採購然後就往北送到曼德勒地區進行一些相關的發放"},{"start":3102.267,"end":3127.273,"text":"就地採購我們橋委會也透過旗下的海華文交基金會從4月8號開始已經在開啟一個有橋無礙送礙緬甸的公益勸募的相關活動也希望透過這個活動能夠將各界的善款共同來為緬甸的地震的災民伸出援手幫他們渡過難關"},{"start":3128.413,"end":3137.757,"text":"那在這個活動的這個我們預計勸募的金額是3000萬當中包括重建這個橋廈1500萬可是剛剛那個委員長您說大概橋廈要重建要20萬的"},{"start":3145.02,"end":3150.186,"text":"要200萬美金所以這個跟預估的1500萬好像也有一點落差確實有落差我們跟委員報告就是之後我們有再跟衛福部上修我們的募款的額度因為我們後來發現這個災損的嚴重程度比我們預估的更高"},{"start":3164.181,"end":3177.814,"text":"所以我們在報衛福部之後我們有把這個募款額度再往上調但是因為我們原來的募款截止日期就是5月31號也就是這個禮拜天就告一段落那至今已經確定募進來的錢是1300多萬"},{"start":3181.638,"end":3204.555,"text":"那距離我們原定的目標其實有一段不小的差距那也跟委員報告 不滿委員的這個關心我們在這段時間當中也聽到很多捐款者有所擔憂就是因為緬甸政府 軍政府所表現出來的態度是不是他們擔心錢沒辦法用到災民身上那由於我們現在執行的面向都是我們自己執行"},{"start":3205.376,"end":3208.598,"text":"所以那個錢並不會落入在這個軍政府或者其他政府的這個手上確保說一定會到民眾的手上但由於既定的意向已經形成事實上在聯合勸募上面並不順利那今天我想委員關心我們讓我們有機會再一次報告"},{"start":3225.191,"end":3234.602,"text":"或許能夠再一度的喚醒社會大眾對此關心那確實如果這個學校要重建的話這幾所總計需要的這個經費超過200萬美金"},{"start":3237.281,"end":3265.017,"text":"好那我們從這個公益券募管理系統上看確實我們現在目前募得的金額是只有775萬這個是比較舊的到今天為止是1300多萬1300多萬了那可是距離我們上修的金額還是還是有段不小的距離那我想請教我們對於這個部分相關不足的經費除了這個剛剛委員長您報告的情形之外"},{"start":3266.358,"end":3274.206,"text":"這個勸募的活動會不會展演因為你只有到勸募的活動到這個月底而已只剩三天嘛是那活動的時間會再展演嗎"},{"start":3276.45,"end":3286.819,"text":"我們會再去問給這個衛福部詢問我們可不可以再展演那相關的行政作業程序我們等到完成之後再跟委員匯報我們的這個部分那至於說這個我們募款額度的差距呢我們還是呼籲我們社會各界能夠持續的發揮愛心幫助這個緬甸"},{"start":3301.931,"end":3326.506,"text":"這樣子窮困的一個國家那讓他們的至少年輕人在未來是有一個希望的所以我們除了照顧現在的緬甸僑生在台生活以外那麼也想要積極的幫助這些僑校能夠復健那其中現在有一所是沒辦法上課但其他的只是受損部分就在比較安全的這個校舍已經在五月初有恢復開始上課了"},{"start":3327.947,"end":3344.418,"text":"那另外就是剛剛委員長您也有提到就是這個緬甸的僑生在台大概是3999人那他相關的這個我們補助他的這些經費有沒有補助的一個優先順序還是說都一視同仁"},{"start":3346.224,"end":3368.4,"text":"我們當然會依著他的情況的需求來進行調整包括這些僑生呢我們如果只是家庭的房設受損的那不是太嚴重我們可能在最低金額兩千那最高到一萬所以這個是有一個補助上的差距那這個就是因著學生他填報出來的資料我們彙整之後呢給予這些不同的這個協助好"},{"start":3373.163,"end":3377.687,"text":"那謝謝我們僑委會,我也請我們委員長能夠相關的這個剛剛這個巡打的問題能夠積極的去追蹤了解那也和我們這個緬甸的駐外代表,對於當地的這些我們的僑商"},{"start":3391.36,"end":3406.78,"text":"可以緊密的一個合作那透過他們來協助掌握相關受災戶的情形那也可以讓這些受災的災民及早能夠接收到我們台灣對於他們的關懷也讓他們趕快走出這個受災的情況"},{"start":3407.401,"end":3420.347,"text":"是好謝謝委員長謝謝陳委員陳委員剛剛有一個小資料我跟您再補充一下就是我們是復學的狀況有些校舍是全毀或者是有圍樓的狀況我們現在是有宗教團體捐了33間的臨時教室33間33間對可是回神的學校不是有六十所"},{"start":3427.971,"end":3432.956,"text":"不是全部都毀損不是說全部毀損那就是我們有評估全部毀損的是有一所然後嚴重毀損的有其他還有三所那其他都是比較輕微的所以經過評估完畢以後60所是零星是零星是在那個區域範圍內零星的並不是60所全部都正垮或正毀"},{"start":3449.09,"end":3466.044,"text":"那所以有33所的臨時教室呢現在也是由我們台商來提供這個基本的供電設備那6月2號開始就下禮拜也會正式都恢復使用這個復學好 謝謝委員長 以上補充我們交易會會繼續追蹤好 謝謝陳委員關心 謝謝好 謝謝軍旅委員 委員長請歡迎"},{"start":3478.305,"end":3495.068,"text":"好 接續我們邀請沈伯陽委員質詢好 謝謝主席 那先有請這個主委 退伏會主委 謝謝好 有請嚴主委"},{"start":3505.549,"end":3527.008,"text":"教委好那個主委這個因為關心的一直都還是跟這個滲透有關的那大概是在去年的時候其實我們就提出來就是說研擬去修正這個輔導條例那關於這一個中間除了說完全暫停給付之外呢然後還有包含是暫停停止給付等等的狀況"},{"start":3528.149,"end":3540.687,"text":"那這一次我看到在這個相關的報告裡面已經有在這個研擬修正輔導條例那寫預計今年九月要報這個行政院審查那是否可以現在說明一下目前研擬的這個進度"},{"start":3542.621,"end":3563.632,"text":"我跟召委報告,我們國家繼續從公報勳,自立福島條例,訂定了退出役官兵福島安置跟應該享有的權益,這個在福島條例裡面都有但是退出役官兵相對的對國家要有更高更堅定的忠誠義務,這是必然的"},{"start":3565.314,"end":3581.528,"text":"現行輔導條例三十二條第二項第二款已經訂定就是具有服役條例就是陸海公益軍官授權服役條例或者其他法律這個裡面所規範的喪失或剝奪退休給予權利的室友"},{"start":3582.469,"end":3603.565,"text":"那麼我們補導條例也在第32條第二項第二款裡面已經訂定同步要喪失相關的一個權益但是對於行為妨礙國家安全利益跟尊嚴具有法律所訂定的停止領受全部或者部分"},{"start":3604.446,"end":3632.071,"text":"退休給予權利的在我們福利法條例裡面並沒有同步去停止就是不符比例的原則所以為了符合比例的原則防住中共近期綿密的這些滲透破壞我們都看到很多的案例所以我們嚴理修正福老條例32條第一項的第四款這個是增訂增訂具有法律所定停止領售全部"},{"start":3632.731,"end":3657.035,"text":"或者是部分退休給予權力的適由了那麼相對的要停止它的一個領受就是國土條例裡面相關的是權益目的就是防止中共的滲透破壞以及鞏固我們國家的安全那麼現在我們案子已經報到行政院因為這是跨部會的工作行政院目前都在做通盤的審查當中我們都配合辦理以上報告"},{"start":3657.515,"end":3670.541,"text":"好 謝謝主委因為這邊這個是一年以前我們就開始很關心的事情也希望院版能夠盡快出來那現在看起來的話其實如果按照這個速度甚至有可能更早那我們是希望院版一旦出來之後就可以跟著一個相關的條文在這邊審議"},{"start":3671.86,"end":3692.675,"text":"那這個當然就是說剛剛有提到就是我這個傷害這個國家尊嚴這一個因為畢竟這一個是一個比較空泛的名稱所以呢到底能不能夠直接用這一個來做這個停職給付這是有疑義的啦那因為現在兩岸條例九之三有一個類似的規定那我也針對九之三其實已經有提出草案"},{"start":3693.235,"end":3716.528,"text":"不過在這個一讀的時候就已經被敷衣掉了所以現在被卡在那一邊但是我是希望說如果說有機會的話呢我們現在提的相關的版本也都能夠進來然後再跟這一個退普會的版本來互相做比較一下看怎樣最能夠保護我們的國家的安全對 我們會配合行政院的審查OK 那現在就是 那個退普會其實我今天只有問這一個那接下來請這一個委員長 這個教會會委員長 謝謝好 有請委員長"},{"start":3727.25,"end":3729.734,"text":"橋深的救學計畫目前有一些經濟強化的措施是否可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":3740.869,"end":3743.431,"text":"我們在僑生的就學方面我們希望說他們在進入台灣就學之前就可以強化他們在僑居地提升他們的華語能力所以這一部分我們從去年底今年就已經都開始全面啟動一些新的課程計畫"},{"start":3757.879,"end":3773.983,"text":"讓他們在就地可以開始強化華語那同時呢也用我們這種雙語的新教材比方說在越南就是越南語跟華語在印尼就印尼對華語在菲律賓就是英文跟華語這樣的雙語教材去進行教學那除此之外呢來到台灣之後我們現在就是第一學期也是強化有華語的密集班那一進來就開始給他們做語言程度的分級上課初階的中階的高階的"},{"start":3786.286,"end":3804.256,"text":"那如果高階的他的華語程度相當好我們就鼓勵他去修其他像英文或者其他的語言那除此之外我們也落實就是說對學校的這些課程的這個進行的方式有分定期跟不定期的那定期的部分每年的五月到六月我們都到學校全面去做各種的方式然後把相關的評鑑報告做出來"},{"start":3807.998,"end":3813.541,"text":"那不定期的話我們從去年開始就會因著這個我們自己自行安排的時間也不通知學校就臨時出現用這樣的方式呢來確保學生無論他在這個住宿方面或者他個人的旅行證件有沒有在增長安全或者是他們在校社所這個進行的課程有沒有按照這個課程的表有沒有說應當在學校上課沒有在學校上課跑去打工等等的情形這個我們都有落實集合"},{"start":3836.952,"end":3864.21,"text":"有這個後者我知道很多委員關心但是前階段就是說這一個語言上的訓練我覺得至關重要因為現在照理說我們希望這些僑生能夠為我們注入活水我之前自己也有指導學生是僑生而且非常優秀然後他有能夠帶給這個很多不同國家的經驗這個對其實我們這整體的這個就學環境其實都會有很大的幫助所以希望僑委會這方面就持續緊緊好那這一個因為今天只是解凍所以我都只問跟這一個比較相關的事項"},{"start":3864.87,"end":3875.622,"text":"那這個最後我只想問一下就是說因為WHA的事情那這個小舞會也扮演一定的角色那是不是可以跟國人快速的報告一下因為時間的因素就是說在這一次的成果"},{"start":3876.474,"end":3880.595,"text":"跟委員說明我們在今年度在37個全球地區共共有69場次的活動觸及的人數大概大約20萬那麼不諱言的說我們這都是橋界自動自發來進行的活動不涉及我們的預算但是我所了解過去會由外交部統籌來進行相關的文宣跟一些媒體溝通等等的工作"},{"start":3903.081,"end":3918.327,"text":"因為預算的因素受到大幅的影響所以這個部分確實在今年的媒體露出部分就大量的可以看得出來減少很多至於本會的部分我們還是如期按照我們原來的方式在進行"},{"start":3919.867,"end":3921.788,"text":"不管是透過我們的僑屋電子報、中央社或者是說我們在各地的社群媒體的方式盡可能的還是傳播我們也鼓勵第二代的能夠盡量用當地的語言來投書在當地的媒體透過這樣子來廣泛的讓國際朋友知道"},{"start":3939.637,"end":3943.198,"text":"那近年來有一個比較可取的現象是我們已經逐漸在橋界都能夠去各個橋區比較人潮多或者是說大型活動舉辦的那個現場參加推動WHO的相關活動向國際的主流社會來推動這部分是有進步而且是大幅的成長那另外一方面我們是很憂心說有關於在跟媒體溝通的這部分我們的經費是嚴重不足"},{"start":3966.505,"end":3972.747,"text":"所以這部分呢我想如何讓全球的朋友知道說台灣作為一個醫療系統發達的國家而且我們的健保制度推動三十年非常的成熟我們也有能力去也有意願去做這個台灣can help的事情但是卻無情的受到這個政治的打壓"},{"start":3985.111,"end":3993.676,"text":"那由於今年美國已經宣布他們要退出WHO所以今年剛剛我在Geneva的時候所了解的狀況就是美國的代表團全數都沒有出席甚至連同他們就地的駐Geneva大使也都沒有進去會場開會這是最新的一些情況 以上說明"},{"start":4005.403,"end":4028.862,"text":"謝謝委員長在這個比較艱困的時候因為現在立法院顯然不太想讓各位做宣傳但是外交部現在經費上面的問題至少僑會會有地補上來至少協助WHA的事項希望明年能夠順利剛剛給國人這個報告我認為還是重要但是無論如何我們也是感謝這些僑界他們是運用自己的力量來替台灣發聲好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4031.744,"end":4036.765,"text":"謝謝主席好 謝謝徐委員長還有原主委沈趙偉的詢問好 接下來我們請黃仁趙偉上台質詢"},{"start":4062.143,"end":4067.553,"text":"謝謝主席 我請我們的原主委有請原主委"},{"start":4076.92,"end":4079.942,"text":"有關於龍總醫療人力的問題,本期針對在114年度的退補會在預算提了一個主決議,"},{"start":4092.732,"end":4107.462,"text":"那內容就是針對內外婦兒及五大科住院醫師的人力問題其實在這個是台灣整體醫療的問題不是龍總個別的面對的但是因為龍總是台灣醫療的龍頭那龍總的"},{"start":4112.265,"end":4133.841,"text":"作为会产生引灵的作用所以本席才提出这个组结议本席先针对台湾医疗整体的状况呈现一些资料待会再请退步会回答我这个问题龙总的状况根据卫福部在2022到2024年的统计的资料全台五大科"},{"start":4135.042,"end":4151.999,"text":"住院医师的这个招募状况分别为外科百分之百那妇产科96.2%内科90%急诊医科为79.9%那另外就是小儿科就是79.2%"},{"start":4154.681,"end":4181.564,"text":"從資料看來武大科的招募情況還不至於太嚴重真正的問題在於留任的問題雖然衛福表示武大科住院的醫師的第二年留任率都接近百分之百但衛福這個是一個不誠實的說法真實的狀況是許多醫師在完成初期的訓練後"},{"start":4183.445,"end":4210.237,"text":"就選擇轉向這個其他科系的一個負擔較輕的風險較低的一個科別而不是繼續在五大科這個服務那另外就是衛福部並沒有針對五大科住院醫師離職的完整的統計那因此本學只針對離職率的推估的資料從第一個內科離職率在將近10%到15%"},{"start":4213.098,"end":4236.484,"text":"外科将近在20%到30%北农在2019年的报告曾指出外科住院的医师在三年内离职率约达15%到20%那妇产科在15%到25%那儿科在10%到20%那急诊科比较严重25%到35%"},{"start":4238.504,"end":4260.078,"text":"那2022年的在台湾医学杂志研究急诊科住院医13年的离职率将近达为25%所以诸位你来回答一下这个数据那当然刚刚我提出的你也回应一下或者说由北农的农总来做回应你先回应前提的好不好"},{"start":4260.929,"end":4289.929,"text":"謝謝召委我先做一個整體的回應待會請我們龍總的北龍院長再做一個說明我想謝謝召委的關心我們醫療的人力有關於這個現任的醫療人力的狀況還有離職我們請北龍院長待會做說明但是我就針對我們的一些措施一些補充的一個具體作為我們每年我們輔導會委託國防醫學院代訓醫學生醫學的公費是19個另外衛福部"},{"start":4290.569,"end":4306.559,"text":"重點特別剛剛召委所提的這些分發五分之一的公費生到我們退補會然後我們也從115年明年學年度開始增加公費生兩個人另外針對偏鄉的醫療這部分我們補助各分院"},{"start":4307.199,"end":4329.677,"text":"有關偏鄉醫療的人力有1億6千多萬來補助醫事到偏鄉的一個榮總培養來做這是我們相關的一些具體措施那麼剛剛趙偉所提到的總院的這五大科提到的離職率的狀況我想請北農院長再跟您做說明好謝謝主委非常謝謝主委謝謝委員關心這個重要的議題"},{"start":4330.96,"end":4351.998,"text":"那內外複合級人力的短缺的確是一個目前嚴重的問題尤其面對超高齡化跟少者化不過呢現在已經有了轉機我們用不同工不同酬醫院的環境改善教學環境改善今年外科已經收滿而且還有很多人在後補婦產科也收滿急診部也收滿"},{"start":4353.059,"end":4381.493,"text":"兒科跟內科也在成長進步中所以這個如果我們可以用不同的政策好好的照顧這些助理師給他好的教學我相信很多有理想有抱負的青年願意投入這一塊他們不怕累的那我們有足夠的人之後我們就可以把這些訓練好的人可以送到我們台灣各個偏鄉分院去幫助我們的偏鄉離島所以這個是我們積極在做好 謝謝因為最主要今天我講的"},{"start":4382.654,"end":4410.32,"text":"因為在五大課裡面希望能夠由他們自己的專業裡面繼續留任而不是借用他這五大課裡面然後再轉任到其他比較負擔比較輕的一點的我想這個問題剛剛書記都已經講出來了所以提醒提醒我們這個榮總的這個歌宴那另外就是我要特別我要特別跟全國的醫師也要講幾個公道話那在這個"},{"start":4412.453,"end":4430.299,"text":"龍總的五大科的住院醫師人力的情況的狀況那當然這個龍總雖然在衛福部配合採取的高健保支付的標準那調整及重難診科"},{"start":4435.151,"end":4456.183,"text":"別的支付標準增加住院醫師的津貼等但據本席了解真正的問題出在於過老然後籠總住院醫師平均每週工時高達80到100個小時那尤其籠總體系醫院承擔大量農民慢性病疾"},{"start":4456.863,"end":4480.089,"text":"重症的照顾急诊更需承担大量农民的急重诊或者住院医师工作负荷远高于其他医师的中心如何妥善调配人力给住院医师足够的支持这样我想这是一个目前很大的问题"},{"start":4480.909,"end":4492.178,"text":"謝謝委員現在公使的問題當然要按照法規的規定來做那現在有足夠的人力我們當然所有的安排包括加班費、值班費他們是比一班科多了一倍"},{"start":4493.42,"end":4515,"text":"同仁現在士氣是高的,是不會有問題,這個我們已經解決了過老的問題我想你們也要解決了,好不好現在就年輕人遵守公使,但是有些年輕人他跟著刀,他趕不走他想要學這個刀,時間到了,老師求你讓我留下來現在還是有這種人這種人應該鼓勵,但是我說你不要害我違反公使"},{"start":4517.041,"end":4545.394,"text":"這個是我們目前的現況以前我們那個年代搞到半夜兩三點沒有人抱怨隔天又要來上班因為現在呢現在的公私保護是對的但是呢有很多熱情的青年我們要給他鼓勵對要應該予以鼓勵好不好就是因為現在來講的話我們醫師是非常很珍貴尤其是我們的醫婦人員也非常的珍貴我們也多給他們一個如果在今天上"},{"start":4546.334,"end":4563.187,"text":"加舉上 我們應該給予最大的鼓勵 好不好謝謝召委好 謝謝黃仁委員主委請回接下來有請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請菸主委"},{"start":4576.311,"end":4576.814,"text":"有請顏珠瑞謝謝"},{"start":4587.921,"end":4609.312,"text":"主委早我們知道其實在您轄下剛剛除了有這個醫療系統的問題的話其實本席比較關注的就是有關於退輔會在開班授課這個部分我們都知道因為黃仁勳現在確定要落腳在台灣所以AI變成不只是風潮黃仁勳也特別提醒就是希望台灣能夠落實所謂的AI教育"},{"start":4610.814,"end":4626.836,"text":"本席特別關注了我們現在退輔會所開的這些課程當中其實我自己看了我都很想上比如說怎麼樣使用ChatGPT啊那麼如何在這個AIOpenAI上面的應用啊但是很奇怪的卻是"},{"start":4627.717,"end":4634.481,"text":"招生人數反而普遍不足那麼就業率更不理想那麼我其實比較想問的是說這樣的一個課程被中南都開了而且這種現在最夯的CHAT GTP或者是OpenAI的使用或者是AI大數據的分析"},{"start":4646.229,"end":4647.771,"text":"我覺得如果回到我們產業面或者是現在的一般的就職市場這應該是非常有競爭力的但是為什麼會出現普遍招生不足的狀況這到底有沒有去了解是"},{"start":4661.206,"end":4667.449,"text":"宣傳不足還是說對於我們這些退輔會的我們這些已經退役的弟兄來說他們這不是他們想要學習的部分因為畢竟開課不是為開而開也不是為了說現在這個議題很夯那麼我們來做這個開課來做訓練畢竟還是要調整到他們的需求那麼這個部分可不可以請主委或者是這應該是我們就學就業處的"},{"start":4690.481,"end":4713.056,"text":"副處長嗎 好 是不是可以聊一下因為本席真的非常好奇謝謝委員的關心我想AI在我們國家的產業企業是不可或缺的一款現在非常的重要 它是屬於高科技的一個應用委員的這個表是113年就業人數61個人 那是全年 一年是"},{"start":4713.536,"end":4731.93,"text":"那我们右边这个114年到现在为止就已经54个了现在5月底54个所以我们还有后半年我们会持续再来推广所以这个今年的人数应该会超过去年113年那称呼委员的指导我们怎么样强化办办的成效那除了"},{"start":4733.232,"end":4747.525,"text":"產訓之外我們今年會擴大產學之外要跟產訓來合作如果訓出來馬上就就業我想這是最理想的那怎麼樣去把這兩個人結合我想我們就業處副處長跟你做說明"},{"start":4747.705,"end":4753.427,"text":"好因為本席其實你說這個報名額度比如說你看113年來講好了Check-in GPT Open AI這個都是現在很夯的但是你看這個訓額是120人但是培訓只培訓了84人"},{"start":4764.212,"end":4769.756,"text":"那麼培訓能不能直接到就業這個當然還要看市場上的需求可是你看114年度有關AI的相關課程尤其是AI大數據的分析或者是中階經理人的AI管理培訓班或者是確認GPT或OpenAI的應用培訓班那滿額加起來是90人但是其實培訓只有54人就是只多了一半以上一點點"},{"start":4792.034,"end":4798.879,"text":"那麼這個是不是對於我們來說就是現在目前不是他們需要的那如果是這樣我覺得很可惜那如果是這樣是因為原因可不可以讓我們知道是宣傳不夠還是在實務面回饋上面認為其實這個不是他們需要的他們更需要的可能是別的那別的包方面到底又是什麼這個可不可以有一個報告給我"},{"start":4819.932,"end":4823.485,"text":"是 可以我們就業處已經說明了副市長有沒有要說明的"},{"start":4825.293,"end":4850.621,"text":"委員好 我是就業就業處謝謝委員的指導我想我們在AI就是如同黃仁勳教父所提到的它現在是國家還有企業產業不可或缺的一環我們輔導會的規劃除了我們固定的執行中心有班次之外我們在這個層面上面我們也多多的來努力雖然數據顯示好像有一些開班不足"},{"start":4851.121,"end":4877.631,"text":"或者是他們的人數就業沒有那麼多但是我想我們這是一直在努力的空間那我們執訓中心會根據每年我們退出役官兵他們的需求我們會做一個先期的調查就比方我們在各縣市有一個國軍接待官兵的全域說明會或者是我們利用各種的這種輔導會就業的場合我們會先瞭解他們的需求然後再做開班的準備"},{"start":4878.331,"end":4891.078,"text":"那有關於委員提到這一點我們在辦班的成效上面我們除了了解這些學員不好意思副處長想要讓你回答但是因為今天時間比較短我希望會後你們給我一個很明確的就是調查跟了解因為這麼夯的課程但是會顯然覺得我們退出會的官兵他其實不見得那麼需要那麼請你把是宣傳的問題"},{"start":4904.165,"end":4904.986,"text":"還是所謂的開課的選舉的問題你們就會後給我一個報告好不好 那個多久 時間"},{"start":4912.217,"end":4917.36,"text":"我們在一個月好一個月給你們一個月的時間好好的做一個這個相關的了解那麼交給我們本席以及我們這個國貿教委員會好另外在下一個問題我要問的這個問題其實在2024年也就是去年的監察院的報告其實已經特別點出來了就是我們在這個所謂山地的農場的部分當然是有委外管理但是在平地的農場的部分"},{"start":4936.308,"end":4938.871,"text":"台東農場南北之間竟然有230公里一個人就要管106公頃那麼彰化農場更誇張雖然它叫彰化農場可是它竟然是北起淡水 南到恆春一個人從北到南只有10個人在管理所以一個人平均是27.43公頃"},{"start":4957.79,"end":4984.28,"text":"那麼其實本席要提醒的是在這樣一個服務員糧貨底下但是管理卻人數不足他就會常常出現變成是有些人惡意的去侵佔來使用又或者是侵倒廢棄物那麼事實上在去年監察院的報告已經特別提醒如果說今天退服會無法有效的使用這些人力就應該趕快依法"},{"start":4986.161,"end":5000.568,"text":"依規來做辦理把它改變成所謂的非公用的土地可以把它移交給財政部的國產署那麼國產署也可以讓它有利於在需要的機關做使用那我想問的很簡單因為時間已經到了就是請問一下退府會現在面對這種所謂人力不足但是危戰或者是侵盜廢棄物的狀況"},{"start":5011.454,"end":5026.219,"text":"你們有瞭解嗎監察院都已經在去年九月提出報告之後有沒有要檢討又或者有沒有要做進一步移交到財政部國產署的打算報告委員請事業處處長跟你說好委員好我是事業處處長楊長正謝謝委員關心這個議題所以我講人員不足的問題因為人事行政總署有規範我們總收入平地農長的15%是用人的上限"},{"start":5039.424,"end":5057.274,"text":"目前為止已經達到上限了當然為了解決這個問題我想我們採取兩個步驟第一個增加農場的收入第二個當然跟人事行政總署去爭取這個希望能夠彈性給我們運用因為目前為止我們國內的薪資不斷的調漲這個15%的上限是已經沒辦法滿足農場的需求了所以說我們不管是台東農場"},{"start":5065.478,"end":5083.428,"text":"或者是彰化農場我們採取的第一個很多委營很多BOT案來增加它的收入也跟在地的小農合作來開發特色產品譬如台東農場我們跟永川米合作開發台東的香米在這個方面我們來增加收入它就可以"},{"start":5084.028,"end":5108.498,"text":"增加人員的聘用那另外一個就是您講到檢察院提出來我們被佔用的問題事實上佔用問題我們近三年來排站率大概百分之八十幾所以已經很少了另外青島廢棄物大概是十幾年前在屏東一個廠子我們也納入了管制這個措施另外我們採取跟國土社會中心合作我們今年也預計採購在我們國內自行生產的無人機來加強這個巡管"},{"start":5113.9,"end":5120.046,"text":"所以這方面問題我們可以逐一來克服謝謝委員好 所以說相關的這個部分確實因為人總有規定總額但是我還是希望在這個所謂平地農場的管理上面還是必須要與時俱進像你剛剛提到的無人機我覺得就是一個非常好的方式但是對於說這些真正閒置的土地而被違法所謂侵佔的部分我覺得除了退伏需要處理之外也可以去思考"},{"start":5139.363,"end":5163.518,"text":"如果真的在退福衛的管理上面有問題的時候是不是要做其他的打算把他釋出然後交給財政部然後的國產署來做統一的規劃這也是一個方法否則對於很多侵占人來講反正這個上有政策下有對策這個無人機或是人員巡過去了沒事那我就繼續站那這個其實是我認為在對於國有土地的使用上面是絕對無法接受的部分好 謝謝謝謝委員長指導"},{"start":5170.229,"end":5175.771,"text":"謝謝主席委員主委請回接下來有請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請原主委"},{"start":5203.022,"end":5214.79,"text":"主委好退伍會主要的業務是統籌辦理退除役官兵相關的事務那有關退除役的軍人的保防的問題是不是也算是退伍會的責任"},{"start":5217.004,"end":5220.807,"text":"對於軍人的保藏保防的問題是不是也是我們的宣導因為我之所以要這樣問是因為最近發生太多的共諜的問題所以本席不得不擔心所以想請教一下主委面對最近這幾年中共解放軍想很多方法想要吸收和滲透我們的"},{"start":5236.638,"end":5241.599,"text":"國軍根據國安局今年的1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法的分析報告裡面就有人提出了警告因為去年遭到起訴的共諜案有64個人是2021年4倍所以重點是竟然超過一半都是現役及退役的軍人那當然聽說主委你還特別針對共諜的問題有叮嚀你們的退出役官兵要提高警覺"},{"start":5263.544,"end":5274.631,"text":"而且在今年一月份的榮光雙週刊裡面還有退伍會的例行的月會上面有呼籲退除一官兵必須要堅定愛國的信念守護了國家的安全所以我想主委你個人認為這幾年共諜案為什麼會突然有高倍數的成長還有是不是表示現在不管是現役或是退役居民恐怕都已經成為了中共對台滲透的主要的鎖定的對象呢"},{"start":5293.804,"end":5314.069,"text":"沒有放棄武力犯台這是他目前的做法他沒有放棄武力犯台所以他必須運用一些他自己的配套包含從最堅強的堡壘從內部要突破那就是滲透破壞嘛所以他的最近可以看到的不管國安局或報章雜誌我們看到的披露的這些都是事實"},{"start":5315.389,"end":5329.483,"text":"這是他正在進行是在做的所以我剛剛前面我也回答沈昭偉的報告我們現在也在修輔導條例32條第一項的第四款要增訂所以符合比例原則"},{"start":5330.464,"end":5348.904,"text":"那輔導條例本來就是它規範我們榮民的音響的權益但是這是符合比喻就是當你如果不守法破壞了國家安全那我們當然要遵循這些一些條例來給你一些做一些規範維護國家的安全跟鞏固"},{"start":5349.544,"end":5367.545,"text":"我们国家的安全防止中共的不法渗透除此之外我想我们平常的宣导最重要第一个就是要坚定我们农民退役官民的爱国信念忠于国家忠于人民农民在哪里服务到哪里所以我们退役会强化我们的服务工作"},{"start":5368.546,"end":5394.17,"text":"服务工作让他感受到国家对他们报国从功的一个表征感受到这是第一个从根本上来做第二个当然是这些宣导是很重要的包含我们容服处对区域的这些退役的军人民众我们应用的服务组组长包含这些退伍军人组织我们的联系我们也请了战略顾问资深的"},{"start":5395.03,"end":5418.91,"text":"戰略顧問出來到協助我們到各個北東南東去做一些巡迴一些演講主要就是把中共他對台滲透的策略做一個宣導訊息尤其是案例目的也就是強化我們退役軍人的一個愛國堅定愛國的信念以及防止中共直接步伐讓我們了解現在到底是什麼個環境這些都在目前正在推動當中謝謝委員好"},{"start":5421.192,"end":5439.803,"text":"本席是相信大部分的退伍徒的國軍其實都是非常愛國的啦所以我是想說但是每一個團體難免還是會有一些害群之馬所以一旦涉及不法就會危及到國家的安全所以我是想說退伍會還是把它當成未來工作重點規劃好嗎"},{"start":5441.184,"end":5446.229,"text":"謝謝委員然後接下來上個月本席跟立法院台美國會聯誼會組團到美國拜訪然後在美國5月2號的時候我們代表團特別撥控到我們國防部在美國華盛頓的駐美軍的軍事代表團當天本席有一些注意到代表團辦公室上面的空間很大"},{"start":5463.186,"end":5465.687,"text":"然後我經過詢問說是你們退伍會的退伍軍人事務組人員在那邊何屬辦公那請問一下主委就是說退伍會是不是有派人進駐在美國駐美軍的軍事代表處辦公室裡面何屬辦公呢還有就是說那編制是有幾位呢然後什麼時候進駐的然後派駐的時候需要美國的AIT的同意嗎還有他們主要的任務是什麼"},{"start":5489.773,"end":5495.859,"text":"去美國到現在他們有什麼成效呢他們在美國進行相關活動的時候是不是需要回報給退伍會知道還有退伍會對他們有些有何業務上面的執行上面的要求呢可不可以請主委一一說明"},{"start":5506.713,"end":5531.799,"text":"報告委員,我們並沒有在國防部的軍事代表處下面來,我們沒有但是我們有自己退輔會駐外的退協的一個聯絡處,我們有兩個人這個地方是在駐美軍代表團的樓上嗎?在華府在華府,你跟委員說明一下"},{"start":5532.928,"end":5544.477,"text":"委員我是服務商務處處長我們有派駐兩位同仁在華府他是在駐美代表處他不是在美軍的軍事代表處"},{"start":5548.663,"end":5568.652,"text":"他主要是對我們協助我們對美軍的退伍軍人的組織還有就是照顧我們在外面的駐美的這些榮光會還有我們的駐美的榮民所以他們很多美國進行的相關活動會回報給退伍會嗎?"},{"start":5571.451,"end":5597.697,"text":"有關退伍軍人的活動他們有去參加他們就會回報給我們那退伍會對他們有沒有什麼業務上面的執行上面的要求需要一些什麼什麼樣的成效他們就是加強跟美國退伍軍人協會的一個聯繫跟互訪然後呢強化彼此之間的一個情誼然後支持我們這個支持我們國家相關的一些政策"},{"start":5599.485,"end":5612.028,"text":"好 其實北京是期許退伍會真的能夠為了增加台灣的國際能見度要有所幫助啦所以讓台美兩國的退伍軍人交流的管道能夠更順暢謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝林玉璇委員主委請回接下來有請鄭振淺委員上台質詢鄭振淺"},{"start":5624.082,"end":5647.932,"text":"鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員不在接下來有請楊瓊英委員上台質詢楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在接下來有請羅明才委員上台質詢羅明才 羅明才 羅明才委員不在接下來有請蘇清泉委員上台質詢蘇清泉 蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在接下來有請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":5668.375,"end":5670.397,"text":"我們請嚴竹偉有請嚴竹偉 謝謝竹偉好"},{"start":5683.447,"end":5693.819,"text":"主委好不好意思喔主委今年國安局有出版一份"},{"start":5695.1,"end":5713.366,"text":"共諜案的滲透手法分析啊那其實我們有注意到說原本比較多的是這種大型的共諜案件現役的比例跟這個退役的比例來講的話可能現役的收到了拘束比較多所以"},{"start":5714.946,"end":5730.974,"text":"比較沒有那麼的頻繁那還是以退役的會被吸收的可能性比較高一點那但是根據這個各個不同的部門的報導後來整合起來其實都有在上升的趨勢特別是以退役拉現役的這個狀況是層出不窮"},{"start":5733.888,"end":5753.456,"text":"那在這個退役啦 現役的狀況由於他們過去在他們所屬的這個機關也好或者是他們的部門因為有就是人與人之間的過去的信任所以或甚至是學長學弟之間的這種情誼所以反而在一些重要的不該出現的場合"},{"start":5754.196,"end":5776.576,"text":"不該出現的場域比方說已經退役的軍官不可以在基地的哪一個部分出現但是因為他過去大家不管是兵營的這些軍官士官其實都認識會不會會有類似這樣通融的狀況不知道主委有沒有宣導一下說在退役的之後他有哪些準則要去遵循那確保這樣的事情不發生"},{"start":5777.176,"end":5798.491,"text":"我們針對國安局前段時間它也有發布就是中共對台灣滲透破壞的管道有五大管道四大做法這些內容都非常詳盡然後成為委員剛剛的指導所提到的也有很多的案例從這些都可以感覺的到中共某種日記"},{"start":5799.912,"end":5819.997,"text":"那麼他這些不法滲透手段非常的多非常的頻繁所以我們我跟委員報告我們絕大多數的退居人退居官員都是守法忠於國家忠於人民的但是有少數可能是受到剛剛委員所提到的這些案例裡面這些場景的一些影響所以"},{"start":5820.797,"end":5849.133,"text":"我們目前做了兩大部分一個除了修法之外 鞏固國家的安全對中共的不法針對有一些嚇阻就修我們輔導條例32條我們增訂了第一項的第四款就是停止我們的權益這一塊就是符合比例原則除了這部分 當然就是加強宣導就是要堅定我們退役軍人愛國的初衷忠於國家 忠於人民堅定愛國信念這段我們平常都在"},{"start":5849.853,"end":5871.401,"text":"不斷地在做因為我們有16個容服處19個容服處每個容服處在各地我們都透過容服處來服務組組長不斷地宣導和宣教堅定我們退役軍人愛國的初心以上跟委員做說明謝謝主委那另外一部分我覺得我看到很多我們退役的這些將領"},{"start":5872.461,"end":5887.11,"text":"我覺得很可惜他們不管是在海軍或者是空軍他們過去曾經受到國家的栽培那出國深造那其實不管對戰略或者是整個國家的整體的這個地緣政治都非常的理解才對"},{"start":5888.01,"end":5907.603,"text":"所以我們會常常看到像是美國的這些這個退役的這些海軍上將像是阿奎利諾這些你可以看到他們在各個重要的一些國際的場合都可以持續發表對美國國力有幫助的一些意見甚至有一些戰略上面的看法"},{"start":5908.203,"end":5927.173,"text":"可是因為發覺到我們的這些退役將領比較少有這樣子的狀況出現更多的大概就是在一些媒體上面來去強烈的替我國的敵對的這個勢力來去鼓吹那反而是"},{"start":5928.174,"end":5942.849,"text":"把我們自己國家的這個武力如果有些時候是建議就算了有些時候看起來不是建議而是就是貶低不知道主委你對這樣子的論知或者是這樣子的看法你覺得有什麼方式可以扭轉"},{"start":5945.646,"end":5962.335,"text":"報告委員這是我剛剛跟您報告的我想我們退役軍人然後我們退伍國來講我們有30萬多人我想絕大多數都是一本初衷忠於國家忠於人民的愛護國家的那少數個人所"},{"start":5963.436,"end":5979.746,"text":"想法不同所發表的這些言論我想畢竟應該是少數我想他們應該也會受到大多數人的檢驗我們持續做我剛剛跟您報告的這些宣導的一些工作強化他們的愛國信念"},{"start":5982.467,"end":6001.945,"text":"再來就是關於退役就是剛才我提到的這些退役的將領那我們接下來談退役的軍官那為什麼要談退役的軍官其實在烏俄戰爭之後有很多重要的一些經驗不管是在戰場上面的經驗或者是說在後勤補給生產製造"},{"start":6005.488,"end":6028.246,"text":"我認為說在烏克蘭的這些退役的這些軍官他可以作為我們很重要的資訊或者是說未來的精進的一個來源那我不知道退伏會有沒有機會能夠去跟其實甚至不是烏克蘭因為我們剛剛沒有幫教甚至也沒有這個助管我想唯一大概只有TITRA在那邊有涉戰但是在"},{"start":6030.948,"end":6056.064,"text":"我認為啦 就是至少在研究這方面是不是可以請杜甫惠來思考一下有沒有機會跟他們做相關的交流他不變得要在檯面上 可以在檯面下謝謝委員指導好 謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝關廷委員 主委請回接下來有請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":6063.783,"end":6068.429,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩我們退伏會主委有請主委"},{"start":6076.522,"end":6097.676,"text":"王委員好主委早 辛苦了我有兩個問題要就教於您第一個是有關我們隆奇工廠過去在韓戰它都是TNT火藥的工廠那歷經歐新 歐新也廢止了然後這一個特定目的的區域叫做隆奇工業區一直希望廢止"},{"start":6098.536,"end":6122.783,"text":"那廢紙當中就這341公頃怎麼廢紙也談了好幾年因為他不廢紙土地就沒辦法因為現在是地質公園他要變成地質公園跟他現在的特定目的的使用呢化為工業區是抵觸的那我也謝謝我們退府會及我們相關單位其實也花了相當長的時間來研究這個所以後來在"},{"start":6126.265,"end":6140.413,"text":"發現經濟部跟經濟部工業局跟我們退府會就隆起工業區廢止這又牽涉到都市計畫所以又牽涉到都發局內政部相關單位一直有一些地方可能彼此的看法有所出入"},{"start":6141.033,"end":6164.349,"text":"所以我們大概密集的開了幾次會最近兩次一次4月2號一次4月24號做出了幾個決議第一個就我們退府會擁有的部分是280公頃左右的土地先把它廢止讓它脫離原來工業區可以成為地質公園讓台南市政府好好規劃"},{"start":6165.45,"end":6191.896,"text":"然後廢紙的程序要走到哪些流程我們都討論過了我這邊整理到我剛剛去追蹤的最新在4月29號退府會已經喊請國產署出具廢紙同意書因為當年我們是根據在民國60幾年的時候有根據當時的條例去設置現在我們要把它還轉回去讓它回到原來屬於生態的土地用途所以退府會請國產署"},{"start":6193.516,"end":6204.27,"text":"出具廢紙同業書那5月26號那就這兩天退幅會也跟我們辦公室表達說近期國產署就會含附廢紙"},{"start":6206.67,"end":6228.277,"text":"地方人士還有台南市政府在關心的就是國產署含附廢紙同意書這一個在隆起全世界大概只有三個地方擁有的越世界地形這一塊土地下一步的程序是我們退服要做什麼動作還是經濟部工業局就您的了解 業管單位也可以 來"},{"start":6229.288,"end":6244.16,"text":"跟委員報告,隆起工業區這塊上至在4月24號經過協調會之後,我們再按照協調會的結論來執行第一個,經台南市政府確認,以自然地景範圍來辦理部分廢紙"},{"start":6246.201,"end":6267.408,"text":"第二个是经济部确认由本会一产业园区废纸办法第八条提出由我们来提出申请第三个是因为废纸范围都是公有土地所以将由经济部在官网来公告那我们退幅会在二十九号已经喊请国产署那国产署也同意了要废纸提供废纸同意书"},{"start":6268.468,"end":6282.349,"text":"我想後續我們會向經濟部提出申請部分的費值經濟部我們也約來跟處長開會了大概同意的流程都已經講好我現在只要確定時程這個原主委可能不曉得那個地方現在我有時候開車在那邊走會看到"},{"start":6284.372,"end":6312.329,"text":"那個穿山甲帶著小朋友就穿山甲媽媽帶著穿山甲小baby在那邊路上走你知道嗎還有梅花鹿啊還會碰到很多野生動物那個區域其實好好規劃它有全世界圍山的二地形然後又有自然生態那我們也已經爭取成功讓西拉雅國家風景管理處涵蓋到這個範圍內所以未來那裡我們希望是比陽明山更漂亮更貼近人的一個區域所以我是想約顏主委有空帶著所屬"},{"start":6313.79,"end":6341.636,"text":"來那邊走一趟我們再去一趟308高地吃土雞啦去欣賞一下我們收到同意書以後因為相關的事情我們都準備好了收到同意書以後我們一個禮拜以內那個博山署有沒有告訴你什麼時候會回同意書他說儘快不 儘快有時候每個人認為的儘快不一樣我認為的儘快是今天下午我們外在吹啦他說我們一接到同意書正式公文以後我們一個禮拜以內就可以向經濟部提出廢車申請他如果需要的話"},{"start":6342.556,"end":6369.877,"text":"本席也願意幫你們催促一下所以他的文來到你們這裡你下一個動作就是經濟部了嘛對 直接向經濟部提出申請經濟部再喊一個文 准 他就結束了准 他就要公告 公告完畢以後就結束所以這邊就可以回到台南市政府市政府就沒有理由再不進行規劃他就可以成為一個地質公園嘛我們也希望台南市政府因為我們無償捐贈給台南市政府280公頃希望他趕快接收對 這塊地其實是一個保地了所以 主委我現在"},{"start":6370.638,"end":6398.404,"text":"在直旋的時候約你喔你就帶著你的同仁一起來到我們那邊走一走看看相當漂亮的地方那另外還有一個題目也要請教主委就是我們退府會所屬的榮家相關的造福體系、長道體系坦白說做得不錯不管在我們那個網聊的你們新建的這個榮家或家裡榮家、白河榮家、板橋榮家我們在長照的業務"},{"start":6399.344,"end":6408.94,"text":"不管是被照顧的居民跟醫護的比例大概都是相當符合標準可是從COVID-19的時候到現在我們就發現一個老問題"},{"start":6410.563,"end":6438.402,"text":"我們退輔會製成一個國家就是你們跟衛福部他沒有把你納入像COVID的時候防疫有要求退輔會有要求農家可是在算那個去照顧染疫的收容的願民的時候那個補助你知道嗎那個attent那個看護要去照顧染疫的人我們在全台灣所有的長照單位都有補助當時本席後來就發現後來我們爭取成功嘛就發現防疫有要求你們"},{"start":6439.142,"end":6465.295,"text":"在算那個照顧染疫居民的收容居民的補助的時候呢就沒有算你們說說這個農家不算我們衛福部的所以一毛都沒有形成在做一樣的事在照顧的時候要冒著染疫的風險去照顧染到COVID-19的人後來那個落差我們也經過多次協調才把那筆經費要到了後來那就顯示出一件事情就是在管理的規範上我們長照體系農家"},{"start":6467.876,"end":6482.518,"text":"要符合衛福部的要求可是在相關的政府的輔導補助獎勵措施都沒你們的份我這邊又發現一件了我們現在長照體系大量的需要就是外聘的協助人員"},{"start":6483.399,"end":6501.536,"text":"我們自己全部都自己招聘的話你們人事負擔太重所以我們的造福員Attend還有我們的護理人員其實有我看大概是1比4到1比5相當高的比例都是經過外部的人力仲介協助單位他其實專門服務我們的來協助"},{"start":6504.338,"end":6513.458,"text":"媒合這些造福員跟護理師來到我們的農家體系這個 那時候賴總統我們在參觀台的農家的時候有看到這個部分嘛"},{"start":6514.653,"end":6540.575,"text":"我現在產生一個問題了現在勞動部有一個缺工就業獎勵補助這個缺工獎勵補助呢他補助一年半就他願意來這邊工作其中涵蓋的業別就有長照類涵蓋長照類的時候呢他前六個月補助多少後六個月補多少第三個六個月補助還有一個金額我印象補助到一萬多最後到四他好像是六千開始嘛五千"},{"start":6541.656,"end":6559.942,"text":"五千、六千、七千吧就前面半年每個月多給你五千塊由勞動部支出然後後面半年六千然後第三個半年希望你長留久用給你七千之後穩定下來了這一個缺工就業獎勵補助我們這個退府會農家裡面的人領不到"},{"start":6567.861,"end":6590.913,"text":"他領不到那我們也開了協調會了那我們退府會也表達意見了經過協調因為我們真正要照顧那些是做造福員做護理師的人不能因為他來退府會的農家服務要經過一個中轉機構也就是人力仲介機構他就不能享有國家這個獎勵措施所以我在追蹤的最新進度是我們經過協調之後呢現在勞動部會含詢退府會"},{"start":6595.515,"end":6621.522,"text":"他已經函詢衛福部了衛福部的答案是樂見應該納入啊因為本來這個補助就是協助你停止就業一段時間又回到職場你來做護理師我們缺護理師你來做造福員我們要發展長照所以我們會有一個獎勵去補貼他的薪資讓他多領一些錢就我們現在這個排除在外只因為我們是經過人力仲介進來所以衛福部已經表達樂見納入"},{"start":6624.884,"end":6648.065,"text":"專門針對喔 這是專門針對退府會所屬榮家長照機構而不是適用一般的因為這是國家的機構 應該要納入他們會函詢我們退府會的意見我不知道那個主委對這事情的了解還有你們後續的主委謝謝委員的支持跟指導還有協助我想這是我們退府會最需要突破的地方我們不管是榮業"},{"start":6650.126,"end":6668.433,"text":"醫療機構護理支家住宿是長照還有我們容家照顧員跟部分護理人員這些我們多半都是勞務委員進來讓我們希望希望能夠一無預期招人招到人然後留人留住住人所以這個剛剛委員所指導的如何納入勞動目的缺工就業獎勵"},{"start":6669.753,"end":6688.854,"text":"比如說我們一直在繼續爭取的所以我希望委員能夠協助我們能夠一起來推我已經把你們四方召集開會開了幾次了現在最後你們表達意見那我們最後就是勞動部去認定我們也一起來努力啦因為我覺得應該要給人家的他不能因為只是來退輔會體系的就沒有領到這筆錢要繼續爭取"},{"start":6690.276,"end":6717.758,"text":"好那他5月27號這個你們叫韓巡勞動部嘛那勞動部我們也會去跟洪森翰這個部長那邊來跟他溝通這一塊特別是我們國家所經營的非常標準的坦白講照顧品質也很好的我們的農家體系這影響很多人我印象你們的這樣的人員好像上千人以上這影響很多人的權益我們一起來努力爭取這樣好不好謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":6722.714,"end":6727.62,"text":"謝謝定宇委員 主委請回接下來有請馬文君委員上台謝謝主席 麻煩請退副會主委有請主委"},{"start":6746.318,"end":6752.201,"text":"馬委員好主委好主委其實我們大概今天解凍的內容可是我們比較也一起關切就是我們在容家或容院的護理人員留職率因為容院其實在台灣的這個醫療上面是佔很重要的一個角色那台灣的護理人員不足人員荒的問題一直是存在非常嚴重"},{"start":6771.63,"end":6776.713,"text":"所以除了薪資以外他還有一個就是他的福利的問題薪資現在大家都在討論當中我們希望可以有更高的一個待遇讓大家可以留職率可以比較高因為台灣的護理師的職業率已經降到薪低只有58%所以他平均職業的壽命只有6.5年"},{"start":6794.404,"end":6798.989,"text":"相較於日本的15年美國的20年還有英國的30年其實我們差距是非常大的所以就這些部分我們還是期望就是說在護理人員上面其實我們也聽到很多護理人員其實他們的心聲當然他們也很希望可以做更好的服務可是在薪資上面這個可能是整體的考量可是就"},{"start":6818.027,"end":6831.742,"text":"他的那個福利的部分因為有一些護理人員我們這個比較特殊的是我們有三班制護理人員是有三班制的所以他變成在可以休息的時間有時候往往不多你如果有舟車勞頓你沒有宿舍的話可能還是會影響到他們的休息"},{"start":6836.727,"end":6839.951,"text":"那如果可以提供給護理人員其實他們可能可以尤其是單身的護理人員那急診還有病房的這些護理師有一個臨時休息的空間甚至是床位這是一個極大的福利可以減少他上下班通行還有增加他休息的時間"},{"start":6855.089,"end":6875.042,"text":"那這個部分我們在榮院其實本席辦公室其實有做過一些了解那可能就大概都是10%十幾%最高好像31的樣子那可是在這個部分我們希望他還有一個更好的這樣子的一個提供相關的模式"},{"start":6875.97,"end":6901.488,"text":"主委可以是謝謝委員關心我們護理人員的他的福利的問題我們經過了解有關在榮院四個總院目前是屏東榮總他的住宿率是比較稍微低一點大概才十幾趴但也超過十趴我想這些護理人員的住宿在剛剛委員所提到整個大環境的考量之下"},{"start":6902.148,"end":6920.161,"text":"我們都會積極做好照顧的工作怎麼樣讓我們的護齡員尤其是外地的外地的可能優先有些選擇要住到不管是單人宿舍或者是多人宿舍這些應該優先考量我想各位院長我們會提醒他們然後做一個普查然後來解決問題落實對他們的照顧"},{"start":6922.301,"end":6932.804,"text":"好這個部分我相信其實榮院如果說願意下去提供更多的資源他應該是可以做到另外一個就是榮家因為榮家他存在最大的價值就是照顧我們的榮民可是我們這些榮家的這些護理人員其實他們薪資不但比較少因為他還有中間透過其他的仲介單位其實他們可以使領的已經比較少了我們之前"},{"start":6947.409,"end":6951.651,"text":"有提出來讓他們有可以提高這樣子的一個收入也謝謝推幅會的協助跟配合可是目前就我們剛剛提到福利的部分其實他們是不足的尤其他們在可以休息的地方通常都是備勤室備勤室現在大概提供給一些相關的人員行政人員或者像一些替代役其實他們百分之百都已經被住光了"},{"start":6974.622,"end":6999.76,"text":"所以他們幾乎沒有休息的空間這個部分我們也請我們退伏會可以就這個部分去做一些考量還有做一些修正可不可以這也抱歉我們也下去了解農家這一塊背勤室讓可能就我了解背勤室設施會比較好一些會比那些單身宿舍要好一些因為單身宿舍它所有的水電各方面都還要自己負擔可是背勤室是"},{"start":7002.102,"end":7025.028,"text":"居住的人是不需要這些負擔的所以這個部分我們希望當然有一些人還是有需求可是像護理人員我們要留用我們也希望提高更高的福利的狀況之下這個如果看要怎麼樣的去改善是不是可以提供給我們書面資料保安我們會做個普查做個實際上的一個落實怎麼樣去照顧他們"},{"start":7025.768,"end":7030.694,"text":"好 謝謝主委主委先請回請提供書面資料接下來請我們喬維會委員長"},{"start":7041.448,"end":7044.631,"text":"委員長早 委員長我們就我們的預算裡面這是一個比較小的金額 這比較小的錢就我們請歐洲網紅去介紹華語文學習中心這個部分我想要請教的是我們大概總共編了42萬然後請了三位網紅"},{"start":7065.732,"end":7093.704,"text":"其中兩位的訂閱數大概是二十萬以上可是其中有一個他的訂閱數只有六千多人我想要請教我們這個是怎麼樣去找的就是他有什麼樣的標準跟委員說明因為歐洲語系有不少都是比較小的語系那我們希望說能夠在華語文學習中心的拓展上面協助當地的這些學校中心可以開拓一些新的聲援"},{"start":7094.224,"end":7116.662,"text":"所以我們這三個人裡面六千人點閱率的這個是小語系的它因為是小語系的它是義大利語義大利語的網紅其實也有點閱率很高的啊我們不一定都reach得到而且我們這個實際上並不是依它的點閱率與否那我們的目的是什麼"},{"start":7117.222,"end":7137.92,"text":"我們是要他們給我們喬這個華語文學習中心去做一個專訪跟介紹所以它這個是製作費用並不是媒體採購費用所以這筆費用是製作費用而已所以可能外界有一些網紅會誤會其實依我們這個錢我們根本買不到網紅啦那麼華語文中心自己不能做嗎那種製作因為我們看有它的內容"},{"start":7141.383,"end":7145.145,"text":"委員長 我們看了他的內容 今天我們現在你說他小語系 義大利他的語系其實在接受度上面 還有他的程度上面 其實他是不小的尤其他的接受度也非常的高 所以我們有20萬跟6千人 6千人其實通常如果要做這樣的一個推薦其實甚至3千塊 6千塊就可以做得到 這當然是網紅說的可是我們其實不是就"},{"start":7170.522,"end":7190.741,"text":"網紅自己的看法不是就那些網紅的看法而已而是你在三個裡面的比較就是已經有這麼大的差異而且你從去年到現在去年底的預算嘛那你到現在五月其實它的點閱率大概只有不到七百人所以這樣子的做法其實我們不知道它宣傳的目的是什麼啦"},{"start":7192.503,"end":7210.798,"text":"今天如果說他這樣做照理說我們華語文中心自己拍也可以因為他更熟悉他的公司介紹製作也不會太困難不是這樣子的我們招生就是要拓展市場的概念所以如果有不同的人有通路我們應該把這個訊息傳出去可是你的通路就是太小太少嘛"},{"start":7211.479,"end":7215.34,"text":"跟委員說明這個義大利的這個因為它是一個新的網紅所以它累積的數量還沒那麼多那前面那個20萬的所以我們是要幫網紅還是要幫華語文中心委員這個也是我們在我們在嘗試說這個比較資深的網紅跟比較新的網紅他們的拓展性委員長因為你用的是我們國家的預算不管這個錢是大是小委員我們這個都是次數費用不可以不管這個錢它的點閱率"},{"start":7241.048,"end":7245.811,"text":"因為你不需要幫網紅講話我現在說的是我們的預算的運用因為你不是只找一個如果你只找一個你可能可以做這樣的說明可是你一次找三個你的預算是平均的是一樣每個人都14萬有些網紅他的點閱率可以很高你可以觸及率更高可以讓更多人接觸到或看到可是你今天如果你的預算使用並沒有達到這樣子的一個理想的狀況的時候你應該檢討的是我們自己預算的運用而不是"},{"start":7270.623,"end":7274.425,"text":"在解釋說這個網紅他以後有機會幫我們做更多那你現在就可以找更多的啊所以我們現在我要強調的是不管是大錢小錢雖然他只有14萬可是你到底是宣傳的目的是什麼這才是我們的重點因為這是我們花預算的一個重要的一個指標跟委員說明我們有實質成效什麼成效"},{"start":7295.154,"end":7321.952,"text":"那個雖然看起來點閱率是這樣但是我們在義大利呢短短這一年當中我們的華語文學習中心從一所兩所到現在已經三所那三所是因為這個網紅介紹的關係嗎因為你的這一筆預算現在只用了半年是去年底開始到今年五月我們現在講的是這個部分而不是你增加的華語文學校現在有一所兩所還是三所它是你用其他的方式"},{"start":7322.372,"end":7334.736,"text":"看的當然就是聲援有沒有增加我們做這件事情當然是一個實驗性的因為過去我們從來沒有做過委員長沒有關係你只要實驗你要做什麼都沒有關係我們現在講的是你的合理的使用性我剛剛一直強調這個都在合法合理的範圍內"},{"start":7342.179,"end":7346.783,"text":"你不要跟我們講合法因為你是小額採購我們知道它是合理的我想說你非法嗎委員長我們從剛才講到現在你用的預算它雖然是小錢可是你在三個人當中你現在點閱率是非常地高那華語文中心自己可以做嗎如果像他的做法我們華語文學習中心也有自己的"},{"start":7367.499,"end":7377.663,"text":"但是他自己做的網站在那個地方他是一個被動的狀態跟他其他的通路我們現在是要擴展通路讓更多的人了解我們現在在檢討就是你的通路如果這14萬你花下去你覺得你的通路跟另外兩位是一致的那我們也沒有話講我們現在講的是你的驗收標準到底是什麼你可以微笑的回賺我們的錢然後可以符合這一個獎"},{"start":7393.51,"end":7401.556,"text":"符合成效是多少?700人委員你要看絕對數字,你要看相對數字那相對數字是什麼?相對數字是什麼?百分比是高的啊哪一個百分比?他6000開始他有700,他的百分比就超過10%麻煩你再說一次委員,他的追蹤數從6000開始,所以他的點閱率有600、700那你找不找600人的?"},{"start":7418.907,"end":7425.87,"text":"要追蹤數更高委員我們要能夠找得到這樣的實驗性的人因為今天你花了今天你花了國家的預算這個很小的錢如果以我們整體委員這個是國內有一些網紅不知道狀況以為這是採購媒體不是 這是製作費用所以它不涉及它不涉及媒體採購的問題製作費用但是製作費用完可以上到這些網紅的頻道"},{"start":7447.097,"end":7452.739,"text":"上了哪些平台麻煩請委員長在會後提供就是他們的通路啊就是他們的通路還有我們的通路委員長不用在這裡辯啦你把它提供你說它有上的其他的平台麻煩也提供給我們所有的這些平台都是我們利用網紅的自己的通路委員長請聽清楚我的問題你剛剛說"},{"start":7471.465,"end":7477.192,"text":"你要把他有到其他的費用聽清楚我的問題你不用再講話你只要聽清楚我的問題你會後提供相關的訊息第一就是你說他有到其他的平台麻煩提供給本席的辦公室第二個"},{"start":7489.548,"end":7502.337,"text":"他跟另外兩位的比較他們同樣是製作他們的成效到底是怎麼樣把三個的成效一起做一個比較然後提供書面資料可以嗎可以的謝謝謝謝馬委員委員長請回接下來有請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":7518.487,"end":7522.319,"text":"謝謝主席有請退伍會原主委有請原主委"},{"start":7530.811,"end":7548.48,"text":"主委好主委好 主委本席想就最近社會高度關注的異難逃兵的案件想做進一步的了解當然這個案子是有關係到全民對徵兵制度公平性跟醫療的誠信我們看到媒體有報導藝人王大陸涉嫌以假醫療證明"},{"start":7554.564,"end":7576.681,"text":"來規避兵役的事件曝光之後呢那檢警當然就是有做深入的調查那目前初步呢就已經發現有多達120人來做這個涉案那根據這個義政署的這個網站有的資訊顯示目前全台辦理義南復檢的指定醫院當中就包含了我們北中南三家退服會所屬的這個榮總醫院就是北榮中榮跟這個高雄榮總"},{"start":7578.843,"end":7605.685,"text":"那我們所了解是目前台中榮總已經有兩件是涉及藝人的藝男復檢案件那請問諸位中榮跟高雄榮總有沒有類似的這個案件報告委員這個案件就司法調查我們現在所掌握的就是北龍有兩件北龍現在目前也在做配合司法的調查詳細的話我想請北龍總院院長先跟您說"},{"start":7607.299,"end":7632.177,"text":"報告委員 院長就這兩個案子到底是怎麼回事因為我有看到你有接受媒體的報導 你有喊冤你說根本沒有這回事 到底有沒有這回事報告委員5月14號接到看到媒體的報導我非常的震驚 馬上啟動醫院的調查這個九位閃避病人中的確有兩位是在台北榮總接受病疫公費復檢"},{"start":7633.678,"end":7649.507,"text":"但是九位裡面有兩位台中醫北只有三家醫學中心可以驗三種台大跟榮總比例原則應該是還好所以新北市政府講的話好像是有誤會所以我馬上打電話去是怎麼樣的一個誤會"},{"start":7650.988,"end":7651.489,"text":"我們這兩位為什麼說九位都在台北榮總呢"},{"start":7680.788,"end":7703.906,"text":"就是我給院長一個機會做解釋這個事情其實我覺得蠻悲哀的因為醫生要信任病人醫病關係要維持良好不過現在詐騙猖獗現在連那個高血壓可能有人工高血壓所以呢是不是有用藥我們醫院的毒物部在台灣非常有名我已經請他們整理有哪些藥物會造成高血壓"},{"start":7705.43,"end":7724.557,"text":"是不是要驗尿來處理已經把這個資料全部整理完畢所以之前是沒有的對不對一驗就是說他有高血壓可能事先他可能有吃藥了所以醫生在診斷的在複診的時候覺得他有高血壓就把診斷書給開出來是這樣子的意思嗎應該是這樣但是一切都是近代檢調的調查所以這兩者都跟高血壓有關係嗎"},{"start":7726.898,"end":7745.489,"text":"這兩起這兩起就是高血壓但其他的內容就檢調已經在調查就全部提供資料由檢調來處理那九位散兵裡面的確那兩位是2017年2019年在榮總開過公費兵役復檢的診斷書那這個事情我們在調查中但是呢希望司法勿妄勿忠有違法"},{"start":7748.002,"end":7762.049,"text":"那個要員辦所以因為很多人都把這個閃兵案都跟這個仲介扯上關係我想對對榮總來講的話可能在這個信譽上面會造成一些影響那院長的意思是說其實"},{"start":7763.77,"end":7769.971,"text":"當初他們來做復檢也知道說這個部分是跟這個要去跟當兵有關係可是當初可能檢驗的時候就發現他有高血壓所以我們就開了診斷書出來那這當中的話我們開診斷書出來的這個醫生有跟仲介這邊有任何的這個牽連嗎這個有調查嗎這個要是 我相信司法在調查中這個是調查的其中的一環那我要向委員報告兵役復檢"},{"start":7790.296,"end":7807.149,"text":"要開高血壓診斷說沒那麼容易病院部檢要住院24小時因為怕有炸他要一直monitor他的血壓有沒有所以奇怪怎麼有些人正常所以呢要在醫院住院24小時這是規定但住院期間他有沒有用藥不知道"},{"start":7807.91,"end":7827.038,"text":"住院期間所以我們的軍醫局跟我們的疫症單位應該已經在檢討怎麼樣來防避避免這樣的事情所以之後有關於血壓的部分如果是這個復檢的話以後我們的做法就是說他那24小時其實我們也要做藥物的這個檢測這個建議但是這個由疫症單位來掌握"},{"start":7830.459,"end":7848.582,"text":"這個部分可能真的就是要來做檢討的這個部分如果有可能是有這種狀況的話因為我有看到院長喊冤所以我想應該要把話說清楚到底是不是跟仲介有勾結還是其實大家真的受到了這個不白之冤這個必須要說清楚"},{"start":7849.383,"end":7863.083,"text":"好 請回 請回那再來的話我還是要再來換一個議題啦比較輕鬆一點之前我們去年我們武林農場有到日本去參加了這個"},{"start":7865.566,"end":7888.603,"text":"我看到是這個大型的旅展叫Tourism Expo Japan那當初我們最主要是來推這個慢旅行喔可是很意外的就是說因為我們在推廣這個台灣高山農場深度旅行的時候其實我們有分送那個金宣茶壇給這個日本的這個民眾哪也知道呢就受到非常大的這個歡迎甚至有日本的這個朋友就問說到底要在哪裡來購買喔"},{"start":7889.864,"end":7917.545,"text":"那所以這個部分的話我在想因為我知道8月或9月的時候今年8月9月我們可能要到新加坡還有馬來西亞也要推展旅展所以就除了我們要推行我們的慢旅行之外呢我在想農產品好像很意外的也成了一個受歡迎的一項那當然像這個晉宣茶堂其實辦公室也有啦我看到推幅會也有送了一包過來那我現在要提到的就是說其實居然受到國際友人的喜歡"},{"start":7918.786,"end":7927.388,"text":"包裝方面是不是要來稍微做一個改進因為我有看到這個農會像這個甲仙地區農會它沒有過度的包裝可是你看看從視覺效果來看的話這個甲仙地區農會的這個包裝看起來就是非常的這個輕巧然後也很清新可是我們就是"},{"start":7940.892,"end":7965.861,"text":"辅导会这边出来的这个包装真的就是比较传统很刻板的一个农产品的包装方式那我在想说再来我们又要到国外去推广那是不是这个部分的话不管是当着是赠送礼品也好或者是推广我们的农产品或者是未来可能会不会让这些优良的产品成为我们国家的这伴手礼在包装方面的话我们是不是有要进一步来做改进"},{"start":7966.461,"end":7994.61,"text":"謝謝委員的關心跟指導我想這些包裝 農產品的一個包裝主要是我們都是委託專業的一些廠商來做設計的那主要第一個就凸顯出它的價值第二個是產品的辨識度當然剛剛委員指導我們怎麼樣去打破傳統怎麼樣能夠創新這都是非常一個很好的一個指導我們將來朝中我們做第二個我們現在也積極拓展所謂的異業合作 跨業"},{"start":7995.731,"end":8011.912,"text":"強化我們現在目前跟故宮還有評科大還有委營戶這些單位來合作然後推出一些聯名的商品來繼續拓展我們這些銷路剛剛講的我們的新加坡以及國外的這些旅展我們都會超出他們的努力我想我們全部事業處處長再跟你補充"},{"start":8014.934,"end":8029.646,"text":"我們近期針對這個產品,謝謝委員關心我們發現我們的包裝是太low一點,我們有需要改進的空間但最主要是我們要表達是我們農場的特色,但是可以做更精緻的表達"},{"start":8030.066,"end":8055.176,"text":"目前為止我們一直在努力近期我們運用了五大農場的特色我們推出了五大農場的共有的聯合的一個產品來聯合銷售那這個剛推出來獲得很大回響也獲得很大的喜歡大家喜歡另外一個跟故宮故宮博物院跟平科大跟偉銀戶等等我們想藉著跟"},{"start":8056.336,"end":8069.965,"text":"這些有名的商家的合作來推出我們的產品比如說故宮他這個點查歷史文物有文化底蘊我們也跟學術界研究來合作目前在進行當中是不是還沒看到產品已經出來了目前故宮還沒出來"},{"start":8074.208,"end":8092.043,"text":"像跟平科大合作已經出來了已經慢慢出來而且銷售大概我們榮民醫院都跟我們採購這個譬如說益生菌銷量非常非常好像今年度生產好像已經賣完了那我們還會繼續做這方面的努力謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":8092.563,"end":8117.28,"text":"因為我之前前一兩年像高雄市這個農業局他有他有一個方案就是設計導入農會那他那時候又邀請了在地的高雄的這個青年來做這個設計所以那時候十幾家的農會呢其實他都重新全部有來做這個包裝的優化那甚至是全新設計這個logo我覺得那時候非常的成功那我在想說我們的"},{"start":8118.161,"end":8121.284,"text":"國軍弟兄應該也有很多這方面的長才那可不可以來個真稿然後再來做一個跟我們退服會比較有關係的一個設計當然本席還是強調我們不要不時非常華麗的過度包裝可是我覺得有一些文化底蘊我覺得融入進去我覺得也很重要"},{"start":8138.74,"end":8155.138,"text":"那再來還有我有看到我們的那個平台也是一樣我們的銷售平台目前我們看到農場的官方的網站我們看到我們在像武陵農場它的官方網站購物網站我們看到就是一包一包拍攝下來然後畫質也不是很好所以這個網站不是很吸引人"},{"start":8155.498,"end":8175.586,"text":"那我有去看了三星地區的農會你看他們的這個拍攝的手法也都比較多元跟活潑甚至你還看到這一個內容物像這部分的話我們都可以來做參考我想說我們既然有優質的這個農產品就是不管是國內國外我們都是要加強來做推廣那當然他的這個形象也是非常的這個重要OK謝謝委員長是好以上謝謝"},{"start":8183.671,"end":8208.75,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員 主委請回那已登記質詢委員 除這個不在場外 均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束那本日會議有徐巧興委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報那這個委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分就在請部會這個於一定的時間內答覆那接下來我們來進行討論事項我們今天有這個"},{"start":8213.213,"end":8230.66,"text":"僑委會跟這個退伏會的解凍案那討論事項第一項是這個我們先處理僑委會主管預算凍結案中提出書面報告並經同意後時得凍之有三案那僑委會已將書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍"},{"start":8233.6,"end":8235.061,"text":"統一統一統一統一統一統一統一"},{"start":8259.576,"end":8280.29,"text":"我們今天花了很多的時間特別做出這個販賣機相關的專案報告但是這個已經溝通過了但是這是專案報告然後是販賣機那這個不知道這個這個其他的國民黨的委員這個看起來也沒有要到現場的意思但沒有關係那既然同意解凍我們就同意動之體報院會"},{"start":8285.668,"end":8307.583,"text":"討論事項第二項也是退府會的是處理退府會主管預算凍結案中提出書面報告並經同意後 使得凍結有三十案退府會已交書面報告 自動交本會請問各位委員是否同意結凍同意謝謝 均同意凍結提報院會本日會議到此結束 散會"},{"start":8311.101,"end":8318.064,"text":"我們就沒有人去啦,我們就沒有人去我讓你解釋,我是讓你解釋現在看病人,看病人在這裡"},{"start":8340.355,"end":8345.077,"text":"可是我覺得剛剛那個用藥那個真的是要把它納入進去是真的"},{"start":8360.862,"end":8367.326,"text":"那你們有特別再去找他講這個販賣機的事情有有 他是他們的意見你是牌子嗎 報告"},{"start":8377.532,"end":8380.373,"text":"幸好不是院會 幸好不是院會處理"}]}},{"id":"16717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16717","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcdabd91bd523f6fd0ea5b031af9c32cfda12e9ca99aa835c01a8073bf326088175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：繼續併案審查（一）行政院函請審議、（二）委員蔡易餘等18人、（三）委員沈發惠等18人、（四）委員王美惠等17人、（五）委員林倩綺等19人、（六）委員伍麗華Saidhai．Tahovecahe等19人、（七）委員黃捷等19人、（八）委員羅廷瑋等17人、（九）委員郭昱晴等17人、（十）委員吳思瑤等16人、（十一）委員許宇甄等17人、（十二）委員蘇巧慧等17人、（十三）委員賴瑞隆等16人、（十四）委員陳培瑜等18人、（十五）台灣民眾黨黨團及（十六）委員葉元之等18人分別擬具「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案。\n【第（十六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-28T08:30:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T10:20:00+08:00","duration":6556,"影片長度":"01:49:16","委員發言時間":"08:30:44 - 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謝謝主席台灣是一個海洋資源豐沛的島嶼海島國家不僅在2018年成立了海洋委員會來統合海洋政策今年也致力於發展海洋產業將海洋產業視為國家發展的寶貴資產與命脈"},{"start":2083.849,"end":2104.282,"text":"有鑑於台灣急需提升海洋科技能力後指海洋科技研究能量所以我們強化海域基礎資訊的掌握是必要的本席支持行政院提出本條例草案設置國家海洋科技營運中心參照行政院版本本席意見有三一 營運中心的成立宗旨"},{"start":2104.702,"end":2119.239,"text":"除了後指海洋科技研究量能外也應著重於海洋科技專業人才的培育因此在本草案第一條加入人才培育等文字期望營運中心能兼顧科技研究發展與科技人才的培育二"},{"start":2119.619,"end":2136.319,"text":"在行政院提供的說明中本中心成立最核心的業務就是調查船隻營運以及船模實驗室的營運管理因此在第三條的文字當中將上述兩個業務予以明確化的文字修正希望讓本中心在未來營運時能夠更加聚焦"},{"start":2136.98,"end":2163.297,"text":"第三考量船模實驗室與調查船未來可能涉及國家機敏業務本席除了支持第20條有關安全查核之規定外也參著國家情報工作法第28條之規定就安全查核之機制進行詳細的規範希望能保護國家機敏業務也保障中心人員的個人權益因此 據此本席遠距國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案懇請各位立法院同仁大於以支持 謝謝"},{"start":2168.2,"end":2179.223,"text":"好 謝謝蘇巧慧委員的提案說明那我們本次會議另外有大陸委員會提送書面資料相關的內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀提案條文我們預估宣讀的時間將近40分鐘另外為了有利於這個審查如果有修正動議或者"},{"start":2195.206,"end":2198.951,"text":"附帶決議的提出 請敬書書面松茄組織台 畢利於我們印發給現場的委員來進行討論如果有已經收到的修正動議請我們一併宣讀 那宣讀以後我們就來進行討論我們現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":2215.311,"end":2234.18,"text":"討論事項括弧一行政院提案第一章總則第一條為提升我國海洋科技能力後置海洋科技研究能量特設國家海洋科技營運中心並置地本條例第二條本中心為行政法人其監督機關為海洋委員會海洋委員會得指定專責機關構督導本中心業務第三條本中心業務範圍如下一"},{"start":2237.642,"end":2256.117,"text":"海洋調查及實驗技術之研究開發 二國家海洋調查船國家船母實驗室多功能水槽及其他海洋科技設施之營運管理 三海洋科技專業人才之協助培育 四海洋科技國際合作及交流之促進 五受託辦理海洋研究調查及船舶技術相關業務 六"},{"start":2258.919,"end":2278.19,"text":"經監督機關指示辦理海洋研究調查相關業務其其他與海洋科技相關之業務第四條本中心經費來源如下一政府之合撥及捐補助二國內外公司立機構團體及個人之捐贈三受託研究及提供服務之收入四營運及研發成果收入物"},{"start":2278.61,"end":2300.095,"text":"其他收入前向第一款政府補助包括人事費建築物與固定設備之重要設施維修購置費及其他特殊維修企劃等所需經費第一項第二款捐贈適同對政府之捐贈第五條本中心應訂定組織章程人事管理會計制度內部控制集合作業及其他規章提經董事會通過後報請監督機關被查"},{"start":2303.342,"end":2324.996,"text":"本中心就其執行之公共事務在不抵觸有關法律或法規命令之範圍內的訂定規章並提經董事會通過後報請監督機關被查第二章組織第六條本中心設董事會自董事11人至15人有監督機關就下列人員遴選提請行政院院長聘任之解聘時一同一"},{"start":2325.416,"end":2338.937,"text":"政府相关机关购代表二海洋及传播研究法律财务相关之学者专家前项第一款董事不得低于董事总人数二分之一第一项董事任意性别不得少于总人数三分之一"},{"start":2340.148,"end":2353.82,"text":"第七條本中心致監視三人至五人由監督機關就下列人員您選提請行政院院長聘人之解聘時一同一政府相關機關勾代表二海洋及船舶研究法律會計或財務相關之學者專家監視應互選一人為常務監視"},{"start":2358.484,"end":2387.337,"text":"第一項監視 任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一第八條 董事監視任期為三年 其滿得續聘一次續聘人數應達其總人數三分之一以上並不得逾其總人數三分之二依第六條第一項第一款及前條第一項第一款規定代表政府之官構主任之董事監視應依其職務移動改聘 不受前項續聘次數之限制依第六條第一項第二款及前條第一項第二款規定聘人之董事監視任期屆滿前出缺者"},{"start":2387.797,"end":2408.656,"text":"由監督機關領選提請行政院院長補聘之其任期至原任者任期屆滿為止第九條有下列情勢之一者不得聘任為董事監事一 受監護宣告或輔助宣告尚未撤銷二 受有歧途性以上刑事判決決定而未受緩刑制宣告三 受破產宣告或依消費者債務清理條例"},{"start":2410.832,"end":2430.344,"text":"經法院裁定開始清算程序尚未復權 使奪公權尚未復權第20條安全查核未通過或拒絕接受查核董事監視有傾向情形之一或無故連續不出席列席董事會會議達三次者應與解聘董事監視有下列情形之一者得與解聘"},{"start":2431.264,"end":2453.289,"text":"行為不檢或品性不端,致影響本中心形象,有確實證據工作執行不力或代護職責,有具體事實或違反聘約情節重大當屆至本中心年度績效評鑑連續二年未達監督機關所定標準違反公務人員行政中立法這情勢,有確實證據救主管事件,接受關說或請託或利用職務關係"},{"start":2454.409,"end":2481.046,"text":"接受招待或虧贈致損害公益或本中心利益有確實證據6.非因職務之需要動用本中心財產有確實證據7.違反第16條或第17條利益迴避規定有確實證據8.其他不適任董事監視職位之行為前向前行監督機關與解聘前應給予當事人前述意見及申辯之機會本中心董事監視之聆聘解聘補聘之方式及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之"},{"start":2484.076,"end":2505.902,"text":"第十條本中心致董事長一人由監督機關就董事中提請行政院院長聘任之解聘時一同董事長致聘任應由監督機關訂定作業辦法聆聘之董事長對內縱理本中心一切事務對外代表本中心其因故不能執行職務時由其指定之董事代行職權不能指定時由董事互退一人代行職權"},{"start":2507.222,"end":2516.471,"text":"董事長出任年齡不得於65歲任期屆滿前年滿70歲者應急更換但有特殊考量經行政院核准者不在此限"},{"start":2519.554,"end":2524.597,"text":"11.本中心董事常務監事及監事均為5級職12.董事會職權如下1.發展目標及計劃之審議2.年度營運計劃之審議3.經費之籌募及預算之分配4.年度預算及結算之審議5.規章之審議"},{"start":2538.525,"end":2563.704,"text":"六 自有不動產處分或其設定負擔之審議七 執行長之任免八 本條例所定應經董事會決議事項之審議九 其他重要事項之審議第十三條 董事會每三個月開會一次必要時得召開臨時會議由董事長召集並擔任主席董事會會議應有過半數董事之出席其決議應有出席董事過半數之同意但前條第一款至第八款之決議"},{"start":2564.564,"end":2591.439,"text":"應由董事總人數過半數之同意第十四條監事職權如下一年度營運決算之審核二營運財務狀況之監督三財務章冊文件及財產資料之集合四其他重大事項之審核或集合監事單獨行使職權常務監事應代表全體監事列席董事會會議第十五條董事常務監事應親自出席列席董事會會議不得委託他人代理出席"},{"start":2592.079,"end":2601.012,"text":"第十六條 董事監視執行長或與該等職務相當職員及其關係人之利益迴避事項依公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定辦理"},{"start":2602.768,"end":2625.89,"text":"違反傾向規定資本軍資本中心受有損害者行為人應對本中心負損害賠償責任第一項人員違反公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定者處以該法規定處罰外監督機關並得為適當之處置其處置規定由監督機關定之第十七條董事監視相互間不得有配偶或三性等以內寫清因情之關係"},{"start":2627.031,"end":2651.726,"text":"第十八條本中心至執行長一人專任由董事長提請董事會通過後聘任之解聘時一同執行長以本中心規章董事會之決議及董事長之授權執行本中心業務並督導所屬人員第九條第一項至第四項第十條第四項第十七條第十九條第二項第三項第二十三條第六款有關董事及董事長之規定於執行長准用之"},{"start":2653.032,"end":2666.343,"text":"第十九條本中心經用之人員依本中心人事管理規章規定辦理不具公務人員身份其權利義務關係應於七月中明定董事監事之配偶或其三星等以內寫清殷勤不得擔任本中心總務會計及人事職務"},{"start":2668.385,"end":2686.926,"text":"董事長不得禁用其配偶或三級人以內寫信應經擔任本中心職務董事、監事及本中心人員不得利用擔任本中心職務機會違背法令行賄及收賄並損害本中心信譽違反前項規定之本中心受有損害者行為人應對本中心負損害賠償責任"},{"start":2688.047,"end":2715.462,"text":"第20條本中心人員應經安全查核前項安全查核之適用對象程序內容救濟及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之第21條本中心限職及離職後三年內人員應經監督機關許可是的出國境其他法令另有規定者從其規定前項鎖定人員之範圍涉密基準申請許可條件程序非值及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之第三章"},{"start":2716.577,"end":2728.152,"text":"業務及監督 第二十二條本中心應擬定發展目標及計畫提經董事會通過後報請監督機關核定本中心應擬定年度營運計畫及其預算提經董事會通過後報請監督機關備查"},{"start":2731.55,"end":2744.658,"text":"第二十三條監督機關對本中心之監督期限全限如下一發展目標及計劃之核定二歸章年度營運計劃與預算年度執行成果及決算報告書之核定或被查三財產及財務狀況之檢查四"},{"start":2747.66,"end":2770.202,"text":"營運績效之評鑑5.董事監視林聘解聘之建議6.董事監視與執行業務違反法令時得為必要之處分7.本中心有違反憲法法律法規命令時得與撤銷邊跟廢紙限期改善停止執行或其他處分8.自有不動產處分或其設定負擔之何可9.其他依法律所為之監督第24條"},{"start":2771.563,"end":2786.654,"text":"監督機關應邀集有關機關代表、學者專家及社會公正人士辦理本中心之績效評鑑其中學者專家及社會公正人士之人數不得少於三分之二傾向評鑑成員任意性別不得少於總人數三分之一"},{"start":2787.495,"end":2802.382,"text":"第一項績效評鑒之內容如下1.本中心年度執行成果之考核2.本中心營運績效及目標達成率之評量3.本中心年度自籌款比率達成率4.本中心基因費合撥之建議"},{"start":2804.377,"end":2825.546,"text":"其他有關事項第一項績效評鑑之方式程序及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之第四章會計及財務第25條本中心會計年度應與政府會計年度一致本中心之會計制度應依行政法人會計制度設置相關法定相關法規定定本中心財務報表應為請會計師進行查核簽證"},{"start":2829.187,"end":2839.715,"text":"第26條本中心於會計年度終了後三個月內應將年度執行成果及決算報告書委託會計師查核簽證提經董事會審議並經全體監視通過後報請監督機關備查並送審計機關前向決算報告審計機關得審計之審計結果得送監督機關或其他相關機關為必要之處理"},{"start":2852.765,"end":2874.763,"text":"第27條本中心成立年度至政府合撥經費得由監督機關在原預算範圍內調整指引不受預算法第62條及63條規定之限制第28條政府機關構合撥本中心之監費應依法定預算程序辦理並受審計監督請向經費超過本中心當年度預算收入來源50%者"},{"start":2876.204,"end":2895.916,"text":"因由監督機關將本中心年度預算書送立法院審議本中心自主裁員及其運用管理相關事項由本中心訂定收支管理規章報請監督機關核定第29條本中心因業務必要使用之公有財產的架構或由政府機關購採捐贈出租或無償提供使用方式為之"},{"start":2897.117,"end":2920.728,"text":"採捐贈者不受土地法第25條國有產產法第28條第60條及地方政府公產管理法令相關規定之限制前項架構公有土地之價款以當期公告土地限值為準地上建築改良物資價款以稅捐基增機關提供之當年期平定限值為準無該當年期平定限值者"},{"start":2921.926,"end":2937.366,"text":"依工廠管理機關估價結果為準本中心以政府機關購合撥經費指定用途所購置之財產為公有財產第一項出租無償提供使用及前項之公有財產以外由本中心取得之財產為自有財產"},{"start":2939.429,"end":2958.926,"text":"第一項無償提供使用及第三項之公有財產由本中心登記為管理人所剩之收益列為本中心之收入不受國有財產法第七條第一項及地方政府公產管理法令相關規定之限制其管理使用收益等相關十項之辦法"},{"start":2959.406,"end":2980.276,"text":"由監督機關定之,公有財產用途廢止時,應移交各級政府公產管理機關接管本中心接受捐贈之公有不動產,不須使用時,應歸還原捐贈機關購,不得任意處分第三十條,本中心所舉介之債務,以據自償性質者為限"},{"start":2983.537,"end":3004.379,"text":"並先送監督機關核定預算執行結果如有不能自償之餘時應即檢討提出改善措施報請監督機關核定第三十一條本中心之採購作業因本公開公平之原則處符合五國締結之條約協定或政府採購法第四條第一項所定情形因依各款規定辦理外"},{"start":3005.592,"end":3027.406,"text":"不適用政府採購法之規定其採購作業實施規章應報請監督機關核定前項應依政府採購法第四條第一項規定辦理制採購與其他法律另有規定者從其規定第三十二條本中心相關資訊應依政府資訊公開法相關規定公開之其年度財務報表年度營運資訊及年度績效評鑑報告應主動公開前項年度"},{"start":3031.628,"end":3053.263,"text":"績效評鑑報告應由監督機關提交分析報告送立法院被查必要時立法院得要求監督機關所長率同本中心之董事長執行長或相關主任至立法院報告營運狀況並備詢第五章負責第33條對於本中心之行政主任不符者得依訴願法之規定向監督機關提起訴願"},{"start":3054.304,"end":3076.598,"text":"第34條本中心因情勢變更或績效不彰至不能達成設立目的時由監督機關提請行政院同意後解散之本中心解散時其人員應終止契約其剩餘財產歸屬國庫其相關債務由監督機關概括承受第35條本條例實行日期由行政院定之"},{"start":3078.94,"end":3098.38,"text":"2.委員蔡易瑜等18人提案,全部張明及條文均同行政院提案。3.委員省發會等18人提案,全部張明及條文均同行政院提案。4.委員汪梅會等17人提案,除第九條第一項增列第六款及第七款,分別為6.具外國籍者,7.曾為大陸地區人民。"},{"start":3098.92,"end":3127.726,"text":"香港居民澳民居民者其餘帳名及條文均同行政院提案瓜湖五委員令欠期等十九人提案第一張帳名同行政院提案第一條除手續修正為為提升台灣海洋科技其餘同行政院提案第二條同行政院提案第三條本中心業務範圍如下第一款同行政院提案二國家海洋調查船之營運管理三國家船模實驗室多功能水槽之營運管理"},{"start":3128.386,"end":3151.297,"text":"第四款同行政院提案第三款第五款同行政院提案第四款六授托海洋研究調查及船舶技術相關業務第七款同行政院提案第六款發其他海洋科技設施之營運管理第四條第一項除將第四款修正為四營運及研發成果之收入其餘各款均同行政院提案"},{"start":3152.864,"end":3176.629,"text":"前項第一款是政府補助包括人事費、建築物與固定設備之中央設施維修及購置費以及其他特殊維修計畫等所需經費第一項第二款是捐贈視同對政府之捐贈第五條即第二張張明君同行政院提案第六條除將第一項第二款修正為二海洋及船舶研究、法律、財務及其他相關之學者、專家"},{"start":3177.549,"end":3201.909,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第七條除將手續修正為本中心設監事會至監事三人至五人其餘同行政院提案第八條董事監事任期為三年其滿得續聘一次但續聘人數不得逾總人數三分之二不得少於三分之一代表政府機關構出任之董事監事應依其職務異動改聘不受前項續聘次數之限制"},{"start":3202.549,"end":3230.205,"text":"依第六條第一項第二款及前條第一項第二款規定聘任之董事監事任期屆滿前出缺者由監督機關臨選提請行政院院長補聘之其任期至原任者之任期屆滿為止第九條除將第一項第三款及第五款分別刪除第一個多號及第二項續文修正為董事監事有前項各款進行之一或無故連續不出席列席董事會會議監事會會議達三次者應以解聘"},{"start":3230.845,"end":3250.1,"text":"及第三項序文手續修正為前項各款進行其餘同行政院提案第十條除將第三項手續事務的物修正為物品的物其餘同行政院提案第十一條除將手續修正為本中心之董事長其餘同行政院提案第十二條董事會之職權如下"},{"start":3251.94,"end":3269.413,"text":"第一款及第二款均同行政院提案三 執行長之任免四 經費之募酬及預算之分配五 年度預算及決算報告之審議第六款同行政院提案第七款同行政院提案第八款八 歸帳之審議"},{"start":3270.774,"end":3288.686,"text":"第九款同行政院提案第十三條同行政院提案第十四條除將第一項序文修正為監事會之職權如下其餘同行政院提案第十五條董事監事常務監事應親自出席列席董事會會議監事會會議不得委託他人代理出席"},{"start":3289.366,"end":3309.979,"text":"第十六條除將第二項之默劇修正為行為人應對其負損害賠償責任其餘同行政院提案第十七條董事間是相互間不得有配偶及三姓等以內寫進因親之關係第十八條同行政院提案第十九條除將第二項及第三項之手續的或"},{"start":3310.859,"end":3332.555,"text":"改修正為及第五項默劇修正為行為人應對其負損害賠償責任其餘同行政院提案第20條除將第二項手續的相關兩個字修正為應遵行三個字之外其餘同行政院提案第21條除將第二項手續的相關兩個字修正為應遵行三個字外"},{"start":3333.215,"end":3353.746,"text":"其余同行政院提案第三章章名第二十二条第二十三条均同行政院提案第二十四条第一项除将文中的分号修正为逗号及墨具删除人事两个字之外其余同行政院提案第二项除将手续的成员修正为人员外其余同行政院提案"},{"start":3354.446,"end":3371.254,"text":"第一项绩效评鉴之方式程序及其他相关事项之办法由监督机关定之第四项续文第一至第五款均同行政院提案并删除原行政院提案第五项文字第四章章名第25条至第27条均同行政院提案"},{"start":3371.914,"end":3396.833,"text":"第28條除將第一項手續刪除刮糊購及第二項手續修正為政府機關合撥資金費超過本中心當年度預算收入來源50%者其餘同行政院提案第29條除將第五項中的分號修正為逗號之外其餘同行政院提案第30條同行政院提案第31條本中心之採購作業應本公開公平之原則"},{"start":3398.095,"end":3400.858,"text":"並應依台灣地解簽訂條約或寫定制規定"},{"start":3403.632,"end":3429.317,"text":"前項採購除符合政府採購法第四條第一項鎖定情形應依該規定辦理外不適用該法制規定其採購作業實施規章應報請監督機關核定第三項文字同行政院提案第三十二條第五張章名第三十三條均同行政院提案第三十四條除將第二項第二個分號修正為豆號外其餘同行政院提案第三十五條同行政院提案"},{"start":3430.877,"end":3436.459,"text":"6.委員吳立華等19人提案全部張明吉條文均同行政院提案7."},{"start":3436.459,"end":3441.521,"text":"委員黃婕等19人提案除將第九條第三項第一款修正為1."},{"start":3441.521,"end":3450.745,"text":"行為不檢、品性不端或有妨礙國家尊嚴之行為致影響本中新形象有確實證據其餘張明吉條文均同行政院提案"},{"start":3451.805,"end":3477.492,"text":"掛壺八委員羅廷偉等17人提案處將第一條修正為為強化我國海洋科技之整體發展整合研究資源提升調查與技術研發能力並促進國際合作與人才培育特設國家海洋科技營運中心並置地本條例其餘章敏及條文均同行政院提案掛壺九委員郭玉琴等17人提案處將第一條修正為"},{"start":3478.392,"end":3501.372,"text":"為提升我國海洋科技能力及關鍵技術後指海洋科技研究能量及海洋研究關鍵設施之營運管理特設國家海洋科技營運中心並制定本條例及第三條第二款修正為二國家海洋調查船國家船模實驗室多功能水槽及其他海洋科技關鍵設施之營運管理第五款修正為五"},{"start":3503.434,"end":3518.883,"text":"受託辦理海洋研究調查及傳播技術相關計劃或業務及第13條之手續修正為董事長每兩個月開會一次及第14條第二項的逗號改成分號及第20條增訂第三項本中心禁用具有"},{"start":3519.483,"end":3537.056,"text":"救驗能力之身心障礙者人數應符合身心障礙者權益保障法第38條第一項規定及第24條第二具聚首修正為每年外其餘障民及條文均同行政院提案瓜胡時委員吳思耀等16人提案除將第三條增列第五款五"},{"start":3538.416,"end":3559.872,"text":"水下文化資產調查之協助原行政院提案第五款至第七款第一至第六款至第八款之外其餘章名及條文均同行政院提案劃胡十一委員徐宇珍等17人提案第一章章名第一條至第五條第二章章名第六條至第21條第三章章名第二十二條均同行政院提案第二十三條"},{"start":3560.792,"end":3576.136,"text":"監督機關對本中心之監督權限如下發展目標及計畫之核定並報立法院被查規章年度營運計畫與預算年度執行成果及決算報告書之核定或被查並提報立法院財產及財務狀況之檢查營運績效之評鑑"},{"start":3579.637,"end":3597.512,"text":"其結果送立法院被查5.董事監視林聘解聘之建議應報立法院之息6.董事監視與執行業務違反法令時得為必要之處分並報立法院7.本中心有違反新法法律法規命令時予以撤銷並更廢止限期改善"},{"start":3598.635,"end":3609.446,"text":"停止執行或其他處分並送立法院被查八 自有不動產處分或其設定負擔之合格應提報立法院九 其他依法律所為之監督"},{"start":3611.075,"end":3637.889,"text":"第24條第4張張明第25條至第27條均同行政院提案第28條第二項末段除了增列並對本中心提出專案審查或進行調查並要求本中心提供必要資料與配合等文字之外其餘同行政院提案第29條至第31條均同行政院提案第32條除第一項默劇增列瓜豆號並送立法院備查及第二項默劇刪除之"},{"start":3638.849,"end":3663.741,"text":"之文字及第三項增列立法院相關委員會得救中心業務召開中央報告會議監督機關與本中心應列許說明外其與同行之願提案第三十三條監督機關應每年將本中心之年度營運計畫預算決算及績效評鑑報告提報立法院被查立法院得要求監督機關首長率本中心董事長執行長或相關主管之立法院報告並被尋"},{"start":3664.761,"end":3680.973,"text":"第5張章名同行政院提案第34條同行政院提案第33條第35條同行政院提案第34條第36條同行政院提案第35條括弧12委員蘇巧慧等17人提案第1張章名同行政院提案"},{"start":3682.165,"end":3706.041,"text":"第一條 為提升我國海洋科技能力 控制海洋科技研究能量培育我國海洋科技專業人才 特設國家海洋科技營運中心並制定本條例第二條 同行之願提案第三條 本中心業務範圍如下一 海洋委員會所屬之海洋調查船國家船母實驗室多功能水槽及其他海洋科技設施之營運管理"},{"start":3706.661,"end":3726.064,"text":"第二款同行政院提案第一款第三款同行政院提案四我國自主船模製造與船模實驗專業之技術與人才培育第五款同行政院提案第四款六受託受託辦理全海域海洋科學調查等海洋研究調查及船舶技術相關業務"},{"start":3727.205,"end":3741.722,"text":"第7款同行政院提案第6款第8款同行政院提案第7款第4條至第5條第2張照明第6條至第19條均同行政院提案第20條本中心應對所屬人員進行定期或不定期至安全查核"},{"start":3742.202,"end":3762.92,"text":"所屬人員拒絕接受查核或查核未通過者不得辦理國家機密、軍事機密及國防機密業務必要時的不予禁用本中心對於規劃禁用之人員應進行安全查核拒絕接受查核或查核未通過者應不予禁用第一項及第二項安全查核結果應通知受查核人與受查核人有不利之情形時"},{"start":3764.642,"end":3780.983,"text":"應許其陳述意見及申辯第二項安全查核之適用對象程序內容究疑及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之第二十一第二十一條第三章章名第二十二條至第二十四條第四章章名第二十五條至第三十二條"},{"start":3781.623,"end":3807.815,"text":"第五章章明第33條至第34條均同行政院提案第三數條本條例自公布三個月後施行關乎13委員賴瑞龍等16人提案第一章章明同行政院提案第一條為提升我國海洋科技能力與研究能量強化海域基礎資訊掌握整合海洋調查船及相關設施資源特設國家海洋科技營運中心並置立本條例"},{"start":3809.298,"end":3826.003,"text":"第二條同行政院提案第三條序文及第一款至第四款均同行政院提案五海洋科技產業發展之協助與推動第六款同行政院提案第五款其其他經監督機關指示辦理之業務八與海洋科技相關之其他事項"},{"start":3826.963,"end":3842.606,"text":"第四條除將第一項第四款修正為是營運及研發成果之收入及第三項莫具增列得以所得稅法列舉扣除或列為費用不受淨額限制等文字外其餘同行捐贈提案第五條第一項同行捐贈提案"},{"start":3843.487,"end":3865.496,"text":"前項以外與執行公共任務所需時應義得訂定相關規章經董事會通過後報請監督機關被查第二張張明同行政院提案第六條除將序文修正為本中心設董事會自董事11人至15人由監督機關遴選下列人員提請行政院院長聘任解聘時一同外其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3866.136,"end":3882.642,"text":"第七條同行政院提案第八條董事監視任期為三年請滿得續聘一次續聘人數不得超過總人數三分之二且至少為三分之一政府機關構代表依職務移動改聘不受續聘限制非政府代表之董事監視任期未滿處缺時由監督機關遴選補聘"},{"start":3885.803,"end":3911.582,"text":"任期至原借期届滿為止第九條除將第一項第五款修正為五未通過安全查核或拒絕查核者外其餘同行政院提案第十條至第二十一條第三張張明均同行政院提案第二十二條除將第一項修正為本中心因擬定發展目標與中長程計劃提經董事會通過後報請建築機關核定外其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":3913.523,"end":3930.874,"text":"23.監督機關對本中心之監督權限如下1.核定發展目標與計劃2.核定或被查規章年度營運計劃與預算年度執行成果及決算報告書3.查核財產及財務狀況4.辦理營運績效評鑑5.建議董事監視之臨聘解聘6.對董事監視與執行業務違反法令時得為必要之處分"},{"start":3941.678,"end":3969.471,"text":"7.对有违反宪法法律法规命令时,得予撤销、变更、废止、限期改善、停止执行或其他处分。8.何可自有不动产处分或其设定负担。9.其他依法律所为之监督事项。第24条,监督机关应邀集相关机关代表、学者专家及社会公正人士,办理本中心之绩效评鉴,其中学者专家及社会公正之人数不得少于三分之二,且任意性别不得少于总人数三分之一。"},{"start":3970.191,"end":3989.922,"text":"前項績效評鑒之內容如下1.考核年度執行成果2.平衡營運績效及目標達成率3.年度自籌款比率達成率4.經費合撥之建議5.其他有關事項第一項績效評鑒之方式程序及其他相關事項之辦法由監督機關定之"},{"start":3990.822,"end":4006.654,"text":"第四章張明同行政院提案第25條本中心會計年度應與政府會計年度一致及會計年度應依行政法人會計制度設置相關法規訂定本中心資財務報表應為請會計師進行查核簽證第26條除將第一項刪除第四個逗號及第二項修正為審計機關得對決算報告書進行審核其結果得送監督機關或相關機關為必要之處理外"},{"start":4018.523,"end":4030.467,"text":"其余同行政院提案第27條本中心成立年度如未納入總預算得由監督機關於原預算內調整之應不受預算法第62條及第63條規定之限制"},{"start":4033.328,"end":4059.634,"text":"第28條 處將第一項之手續修正為政府對本中心之經費補助外其餘同行政院提案第29條 本中心自有及接受撥用或捐贈之公有財產應依法管理使用收益及處分接受捐贈之財產如無使用必要時應返還原機關不得擅自處分第30條 本中心所舉借之債務以據自償性者為限"},{"start":4060.694,"end":4084.106,"text":"並需經監督機關核定預算執行結果如有不能自償之餘時應即檢討提出改善措施報請監督機關核定第三十一條本中心之採購作業應本公開公平之原則並依條約協定或政府採購法相關規定辦理除特定條件外不適用政府採購法第三十二條第一項同行徵運提案前項"},{"start":4085.509,"end":4111.659,"text":"年度績效評鑑報告由監督機關提出分析報告送交立法院被查必要時立法院得要求本中心相關人員至立法院報告營運狀況並備詢第五章張明同行政院提案第三十三條對本中心所作行政處分不符者當事人得依訴願法規定向監督機關提起訴願第三十四條本中心如因情勢變更或績效不彰至無法達成設立目的監督機關得"},{"start":4112.819,"end":4134.192,"text":"提請行政院同意後解散之本中心解散時其人員依契約中止生育財產歸屬國庫債務由監督機關概括承受第三十五條同行政院提案瓜胡十四委員陳佩玉等十八人提案全部帳名及條文均同行政院提案瓜胡十五台灣民眾黨黨團提案除將第一條修正為"},{"start":4135.613,"end":4153.627,"text":"為推動我國海洋科技之長遠發展,整合海洋科技研究設置與人力資源,提升海域調查技術創新及應用能力,並加強國際交流合作及專業人才之培育與運用,特設國家海洋科技營運中心,並制定本條例。"},{"start":4154.548,"end":4179.228,"text":"及第20條修正為本中心人員應依涉密程度接受一般或特殊安全查核一般安全查核由主管機關依規定辦理涉及國家安全或重大利益之特殊安全查核應由主管機關會同相關機關辦理之對於規劃禁用之人員應先行辦理安全查核拒絕接受查核或查核未通過者應不予禁用"},{"start":4179.949,"end":4197.805,"text":"依法應實施安全查核而待於查核之主管或承辦人員情節重大者應移送監察院依法處理安全查核之適用對象、程序、內容、救濟等相關事項之辦法由主管機關會同監督機關定之其餘章明及條文均同行政院提案"},{"start":4198.906,"end":4213.84,"text":"關乎十六委員議員之等十八人提案對照委員林倩琦等十九人提案除將第十七條的監事的事修正為事情的事之外其餘章面及條文均同委員林倩琦等十九人提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":4217.589,"end":4245.776,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議部分修正動議一件修正動議一對照行政院提案第二十條第二項默劇修正為有監督機關會商有關機關定之外其餘未修正提案人陳培宇王逸川吳思堯宣讀完畢我們條文已經宣讀完畢現在我們進行討論我們請問在場委員本案是否要先進行大體討論或是直接進入逐條審查"},{"start":4247.492,"end":4276.328,"text":"主條 好 可以因為這次我看16個病案我們合併審查今天在審查行政院函請審議的國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例英雄所見略同這是我們這16個案子裡面幾乎是高度的共識除了第一 第二 第九 第20以外其他我看都差不多我們現在就來進行主條"},{"start":4282.461,"end":4303.626,"text":"來 我們現在開始看名稱名稱就在第34頁我看行政院跟其他委員一共這16個案全部各提案的名稱都相同我們是就照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":4306.892,"end":4322.981,"text":"沒問題喔好那我們就照行政院的提案通過來那第一張這個張明張明各提案的張明其實都一樣啦那我們就照行政院的提案通過第一條第一條"},{"start":4337.881,"end":4347.658,"text":"那請問在場委員有沒有意見沒有的話第一條我們就照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":4349.045,"end":4362.994,"text":"現在第二條第二條各提案的條文內容也都相同請問各位有沒有什麼意見沒有的話我們就照行政院的提案通過那第三條呢就是中心的業務的一個範圍那請問在場委員針對第三條"},{"start":4371.44,"end":4375.426,"text":"有沒有其他的意見我們討論一下因為第三條我有提我的版本也就是我有增加第一項第五款有關於我們的業務範圍"},{"start":4387.742,"end":4414.646,"text":"那因為我在質詢的時候當初也提過我們這個要建置的這個資料調研船的核心任務就是協助水下文資的調查那包括呢我們國家海洋政策白皮書的幾大目標裡頭也對於水下文化資產保存需要多方資源的整合這都是中心要務那所以我是希望說在本中心的業務範圍我增加一款"},{"start":4415.168,"end":4438.467,"text":"就是水下文化資產調查之協助它只是一個協力然後把水下文資調研的這個事情也放在中心範圍裡頭希望能夠獲得與會委員的支持那我也想看看我們這個管主委這邊因為管主委是文化資產的大前輩應該會支持吧好不好是不是請那個行政部門回覆一下這是我的提案希望能夠"},{"start":4440.793,"end":4443.879,"text":"請我們是不是機關這邊做一個說明是"},{"start":4449.616,"end":4470.127,"text":"跟各位委員報告 現在國海院的法政中心有一個中心的業務本身就有做水下文資大概全國只要是水下的文資大概都委託我們國海院來做我們文化部這方面的業務都委託我們來做"},{"start":4471.227,"end":4495.636,"text":"所以他的業務現在是放在國海院那未來這個中心有可能是國海院監督的中心所以是不是要在這個中心再去列這個業務就是說這個業務是他的監督機關的業務那要不要再列這個業務的話我們有一個建議就是說如果委員同意我們能不能用附帶決議"},{"start":4497.117,"end":4519.548,"text":"就是他的最後一款那個開口其他有關業務可以涵蓋但是我們用附帶決議說未來要在這個部分特別予以協助這樣子主席我再接著跟主委討論一下其實我理解國海院當然是他在做那這個營運中心其實兩大計畫包括這個船你們叫做什麼"},{"start":4524.097,"end":4545.552,"text":"資料調研船那我其實理解但是呢你看看你的中心的每一個範圍的業務其實每一項也都跟國海院有關係啊所以你都把國海院的每一個事項跟營運中心你放在你的核心範圍裡頭那同樣的水下文資我希望放而且我寫的是協助"},{"start":4547.318,"end":4574.178,"text":"就是去彰顯我們對於水下文資這件事情台灣的一個雄心壯志而且我們是整合性嘛是整合性嘛所以放在核心業務這真的是無傷啦無差啦它不會因為這樣變成你的主力業務啊它是協助的業務啊所以我是再一次希望說主委你這麼支持文化資產的保存我真的覺得這是一個"},{"start":4574.998,"end":4595.271,"text":"好 謝謝委員那我們就就就把它納入好不好很謝謝啦我們就是特別在彰寫一下我也很開心好不好好不好好謝謝主委也希望獲得其他委員的支持謝謝好其他委員如果沒有其他的意見的話我們就按照吳思雅委員的提案修正通過"},{"start":4598.784,"end":4618.126,"text":"接下來我們來看第三條刷我們現在往第四條第四條我看這個內容也都一樣我們在場委員如果沒有其他的意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":4620.373,"end":4636.058,"text":"接下來第五條第五條是中心的規章的訂定的程序我看這個內容大家的提案都相同是不是在場委員如果沒有異議的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":4638.459,"end":4651.412,"text":"第六條 第六條各提案的第二張的章名 第二張的章名這各個提案的章名都相同那我們就按照在場委員如果沒有意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第六條 第六條"},{"start":4656.755,"end":4669.141,"text":"第六條就是董事的人數資格還有聆聘這個我看提案也都相同了我們第六條在場委員如果沒有其他的意見的話我們是不是按照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":4670.977,"end":4699.583,"text":"我們第六條就按照行政院的提案通過第七條就監視的人數資格臨聘如果在場委員沒有其他意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第八條就是董事監視的任期解聘還有這個補聘的一個方式這個提案的內容都大同小異在場委員如果沒有其他的意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過有沒有意見"},{"start":4701.311,"end":4717.902,"text":"沒有的話接下來我們進入到第九條第九條這個在巡打的時候委員有一點不同的意見就是董事監事聘任的消極資格跟解聘的室友請問在場委員針對第九條有沒有其他的意見"},{"start":4719.966,"end":4730.88,"text":"如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過那第十條就是中心董事長的聘任職權跟代理方式跟年齡的一個限制在場委員有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":4732.318,"end":4750.915,"text":"如果沒有的話我們就按照第四條就按照行政院的提案通過第十一條是董事長董事常務監事跟監事都是無極職這是高度共識那第十一條在場委員如果沒有其他的意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第十二條 第十二條就是董事會的職權事項"},{"start":4758.943,"end":4785.142,"text":"請問在場委員有沒有什麼意見如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第十三條就是董事會的開會會議議決的方式這個也沒有什麼其他的意見在場委員如果沒有其他意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第十四條監視的職權事項跟行使的一個方式請問在場委員有沒有其他不同意見"},{"start":4786.582,"end":4812.185,"text":"這都一樣的啦那我們就按沒有其他不同意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第15條就是董事常務監事出席會議的方式請問在場委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第16條董事監事利益迴避原則這大家都高度共識在場委員有沒有其他不同意見"},{"start":4813.146,"end":4827.453,"text":"如果沒有的話我們第16條就按照行政院的提案通過第17條董監事兼不得有配偶跟三親等以內的血親陰親的關係這個都有高度共識所以我們第17條"},{"start":4829.827,"end":4854.843,"text":"在場委員有沒有什麼不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第18條中心執行長的臨聘方式跟職權如果在場委員有沒有其他不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第19條是本中心跟禁用人員的權利及義務"},{"start":4858.437,"end":4881.348,"text":"19條這個也沒有不同的一個相同的看法請問在場委員有沒有意見如果沒有的話第19條我們也按照行政院的提案通過第20條在懸打的時候大家比較有意見就是本中心人員的安全插合的規定請問在場委員我來陳培宇委員"},{"start":4882.008,"end":4906.108,"text":"好 謝謝主席二十條的部分我想要討論一下就是目前安全查核這件事情是國人都非常高度關注的那目前在行政院的版本或是我自己的版本裡面我們本來只有寫到監督機關但是因為查核這件事情相關專業性跟跨部會必須要合作所以我有一個修正動議要拜託所有委員支持也要請主委這邊待會說明一下"},{"start":4906.488,"end":4916.12,"text":"我們可不可以加上由監督機關會商有關機關定制也就是把相關其他跨部會然後跟國安有關查核的部分都放進來以上 謝謝"},{"start":4918.306,"end":4941.496,"text":"看起來也比較完整啦 就是剛才也宣讀過啦就是說修正動議啊 就是說本中心人員應經安全查核然後第二項是前項安全查核的適用對象程序內容跟救濟及其他相關事項的辦法由監督機關會商有關機關定之啦那請問L會這邊有沒有什麼不同的意見"},{"start":4943.862,"end":4961.19,"text":"來 黃國昌委員謝謝昭偉二十條當初在詢答的時候我有清楚的請教我們海委會的官員那台灣民眾黨黨團希望對於有關於查核提一個密度比較高"},{"start":4962.711,"end":4990.042,"text":"的規範所以在20條裡面我們不是好像全部都放給他們去做了因為之前在其他的行政法人全部放給他們做最後的結果是由他們自己的那一個行政法人去做一般的安全查核然後由其他的機關來去做特殊的安全查核"},{"start":4991.432,"end":5014.22,"text":"這個前例你們的那個法條從哪裡來的我非常清楚因為我已經看過了你們基本上就是抄其他行政法人的設置條例來的但其他行政法人的那個設置條例當初對於安全查核的部分它規範的密度顯有不足所以竟然會有那個行政法人本身去做一般的安全查核"},{"start":5015.06,"end":5035.996,"text":"那特殊的安全查核才是由他監督的主管機關去做所以我們為什麼提20條我們所提出來的條文第一個他應該依照涉密的程度接受一般或者是特殊的安全查核這是我們第一項的規定第二項的規定一般的安全查核我們不希望"},{"start":5037.396,"end":5065.723,"text":"竟然出現了授權給一般行政法人自己去做的狀況所以我在第二項明訂一般的安全查核就應該由主管機關來辦那第二個涉及國家安全或重大利益的特殊安全查核由主管機關會同相關機關辦理第三項進一步規定對於規劃禁用的人員應該要先做安全查核拒絕接受查核會查核沒有通過不予禁用"},{"start":5066.96,"end":5090.081,"text":"然後第四項依法應實施安全查核而待遇查核的主管或承辦人員情節重大要移送監察院依法處理這個就是我們現在的狀況應該查核卻沒有查核結果搞了半天沒有人要負責這個是我們現在的狀況我覺得這個法律的效果要明定"},{"start":5090.973,"end":5110.288,"text":"要讓這一些知道要查核卻沒有辦查核而導致什麼而導致接下來一步產生像今天這樣子的狀況一定要有一些法律效果那最後一項剩下的東西把前面的原則清楚的規範清楚了以後"},{"start":5111.309,"end":5139.984,"text":"我相信我剛剛報告的那幾個原則主管機關我相信應該不會有意見因為我每一項所講的原則等一下也可以請我們的行政機關的代表發表意見認為我在每一項所明定下來的原則你們是不是贊成那剩下有關程序相關性的規定我們再放在最後一項授權給他們定這個我沒有意見以上說明"},{"start":5141.243,"end":5170.365,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員的說明其實他的第二 台灣民眾黨黃國昌委員剛提到第二十條中心人員的部分 這個安全查核他把它區分了 涉密程度 接受一般跟特殊這個部分倒是很完整的 那是不是我們這個先暫時理事長你準備說明了嗎好 那我們現在請海委會主委說明"},{"start":5172.747,"end":5190.28,"text":"謝謝兩位委員給我們的指教那如果簡單的說陳佩玉委員的會商主管機關這個部分我們是覺得會商有關機關這個部分我們是覺得應該納進來那在黃國昌委員的版本裡面也有納進來這個到時候可能就可以整合"},{"start":5191.921,"end":5215.673,"text":"民眾黨黨團黃國昌委員剛所說的這個版本我們基本上是覺得就是把它訂得更明確更完整的機制這個方向我們覺得也是很好但是就是在用語上我們可能還要再整理一下以第二項來講主管機關我們這裡是監督機關我們不是主管機關"},{"start":5216.713,"end":5239.782,"text":"那另外就是第四項的部分我比較想說是不是我們要請那個人種的同仁來幫我們說明解釋一下第四項是否適合用在這個法人那至於說一二三五項我們覺得都是可以同意的部分以上那第五項也稍微做一下那個文字這樣子好謝謝好謝謝人種我來吧"},{"start":5245.632,"end":5267.368,"text":"我報告一下因為我們要移送監察院調查人是以公務員為主行政法人的人員基本上在現行的制度下他是法人所禁用的人員他並不是公務人員所以這個要移送到監察院的話事實上他應該是這個部分事實上可能要考慮到目前現行的體制上"},{"start":5269.235,"end":5287.935,"text":"只有只能說就是說他既然已經要規定要查了他自然就會依法他進行查那監督機關本身在審核他的這個人事管理規章或查辦法或者平常做為監督機關的法律立場來講他就應該要督促他要去每一個細節他都要去處理到這以上報告謝謝好請黃國昌委員"},{"start":5291.299,"end":5305.114,"text":"第一個謝謝管碧玲主委也認同我們基本上面所提出來的法律修正原則你剛剛所講的就第二項的部分要把它改成監督機關這沒有問題在法律上面我們用於把它給統一"},{"start":5307.977,"end":5331.171,"text":"剛剛主委說有一些我們所提出來的條文他們希望做一些細部的文字調整跟整理這個我也同意等一下是不是就看見海委會的同仁稍微整理一下但是剛剛任總所搶到的第四項的部分我要特別說明我知道行政法人裡面所聘用的人未必有公務員資格"},{"start":5332.492,"end":5349.433,"text":"但是請人總注意請人總注意我們在做查核的時候就即使是一般安全查核我都不要交給那個行政法人自己做我一開始的時候就是訂監督機關的人做嘛那監督機關的人總有公務員身份吧"},{"start":5351.027,"end":5369.967,"text":"接觸器官的總有公務員身份吧那我就是要去處理那些你們應該要做查核就沒有去做查核的人他們相關的行政為師責任啊那否則的話就會搞到像今天的狀況一樣啊應該做沒有做結果搞了半天沒有人要負責這樣不好吧"},{"start":5374.039,"end":5391.679,"text":"所以針對人總剛剛所提出來的問題我們指的是要去做一般 即使是一般查的都是到監督機關的喔不是像現在其他的行政法人一樣由其他的行政法人自己做如果人總講的是現行的其他行政法人像那個什麼資通安全"},{"start":5394.288,"end":5407.707,"text":"他們是一般查核他們自己做我上次質詢的時候其實就是請教你們這一件事情既然我們在法條上面一般查核都是連監督機關做那顯然他們就是有公務員身份"},{"start":5408.408,"end":5414.311,"text":"那應該做而沒有做的話把他移到檢察院處理這不是剛好而已嗎以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":5428.713,"end":5435.004,"text":"好吧 這邊有人好 謝謝主席那既然要保留我們剛剛有一個附帶決議是不是跟請海委會一併幫我們討論一下當然 一併 一併好 附帶決議好 謝謝"},{"start":5444.757,"end":5464.514,"text":"好 我們這一條我們就暫時保留那接下來我們來看一下第21條21條這就沒什麼爭議了本中心人員出國的一個規定那請問在場委員有沒有其他不同意見如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":5465.655,"end":5491.792,"text":"第三張章名 各提案的章名都一樣如果在場委員沒有不同意見我們就按照行政院的提案通過第二十二條二十二條就是中興因擬定發展目標計畫訂定年度業務計畫跟預算請問在場委員有沒有其他不同意見如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過"},{"start":5492.853,"end":5512.961,"text":"第23條23條是監督機關的監督權限在場委員有沒有不同的意見如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過24條呢就績效評鑑的辦理方式跟他的內容如果在場委員沒有其他不同意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第202324"},{"start":5520.114,"end":5544.673,"text":"現在第四張章名各個提案的章名都相同在場委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過25條請問在場委員有沒有其他不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第26條在場委員有沒有其他不同的意見"},{"start":5546.445,"end":5561.755,"text":"好 沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第27條在場委員有沒有其他不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第28條來 在場委員有沒有不同意見"},{"start":5563.035,"end":5579.561,"text":"沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第29條這個中心公有跟自有財產的定義管理使用收益相關的規定如果在場委員沒有其他不同意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第29條"},{"start":5582.219,"end":5599.683,"text":"這管理方式的部分在場委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第三十條三十條本中心舉在的要件跟相關監督的程序在場委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第三十條三十吧"},{"start":5607.26,"end":5633.102,"text":"這個已經宣告過了來那我們第31條31條在場委員有沒有其他不同的意見如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第32條就資訊的公開在場委員如果沒有其他不同意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過33條"},{"start":5641.033,"end":5646.7,"text":"這個徐宇貞委員等17人的提案有意見嗎還有會這個地方有沒有其他"},{"start":5655.079,"end":5676.578,"text":"我們請院長說明一下好來 請說明徐宇貞委員所提的是增加新的一條那這些條文裡面的內容其實在我們行政院版本裡面的32條第一項跟第二項的明定就已經含括了所以我們行政院版本是認為沒有增訂這個條文的必要性"},{"start":5677.492,"end":5688.964,"text":"好再成為如果沒有不同意見的話我們不予爭定就不予採納了32條第二項已經放了我們就不予採納接下來我們就再回來看一下"},{"start":5699.702,"end":5711.61,"text":"來接下來我們看第五章的章名第五章章名各提案的章名都一樣都相同在場委員如果沒有不同意見的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第33條在場委員有沒有其他不同的意見如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第34條"},{"start":5726.519,"end":5751.203,"text":"在場委員有沒有其他不同意見如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第35條就施行日期啦那在場委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過現在來看來 黃國昌委員那個我只是想請教一下監督機關的代表你們大概預期什麼時候要施行"},{"start":5754.537,"end":5769.757,"text":"沒有啦 因為過去有很多其他的例子啦我也不要一一細數啦就交給行政院訂的時候大家永遠會有個問題嘛那我知道你們需要時間準備這個是願意給你們準備時間的理由但是你們大概要準備多少"},{"start":5770.854,"end":5799.375,"text":"大概要準備多久啦一個基本上面的規劃跟態度恐怕也是要讓國會知道各位有沒有報告我們的籌備工作其實就是目前都很節居的狀況之下在開始那整個籌備的工作我們很希望就是說一定要在一年之內也就是明年的下半年我們希望就能夠上路因為我們的調查船也差不多就要建造完成了"},{"start":5799.955,"end":5819.047,"text":"那譬如說碼頭的問題要規劃,然後還包括碼頭的建設,等等這些準備的工作,我們確實都需要時間,那我們預計大概希望一年能夠完成。好,謝謝我們管主委的說明,那現在再來我們回來二十條。"},{"start":5828.336,"end":5830.317,"text":"我們在等條文的這段期間,我們是不是請宣讀20條的附帶決議?"},{"start":5853.237,"end":5879.855,"text":"未來決議一為確保國家安全及人員之適任請國家海洋科技運營中心與訂定國家海洋科技運營中心人員安全查核辦法時處對於金融人員與聘用前應通過安全查核外另應將有關統一職務滿一定期間內應重新辦理查核之制度納入該辦法以避免機敏資料外洩提案人吳思堯 王逸川 陳培宇 宣讀完畢請吳思堯委員"},{"start":5883.826,"end":5904.793,"text":"簡單做提案說明這也是現在的這個當下所發生的很多事情我們全面在檢視我們公務體系的一個查核辦法那尤其我們這個要成立的新的這個營運中心裡頭很多都是試射國家機敏事項海洋事務所以這個我是希望能夠建議在查核辦法裡頭對於呢"},{"start":5908.495,"end":5927.205,"text":"這個再查核一定時間授權給你們定嘛不是說一開始任用查核一次就沒了所以我覺得這個東西是比較我們希望能夠去落實查核辦法那希望大家要提案的委員有私謠一川培餘希望爭取大家的支持這個是一個好的提醒好嗎"},{"start":5929.58,"end":5956.301,"text":"謝謝吳司要委員我們是不是機關要做說明那我們就等一下這個決議說明完以後如果有說明的話我們再跟修正條文一併來做處理來請管主委這個部分附帶決議我們同意那這個部分不必納入那個條文沒有關係所以我用附帶決議因為這個太detail了附帶決議的方式那我們就沒有再常委員沒有其他意見的話我們就照案通過"},{"start":5962.578,"end":5982.263,"text":"其實還有會也非常誠懇然後逐一來做說明這也對我們委員會的聯席極度的一個尊重管委員也從我們立法院之聲的大解答出去我們也都表達對他的支持這個條文我們再看一下 再想一下"},{"start":5991.263,"end":6012.11,"text":"好來 我來看你的大作畫這基本上黃國昌委員剛提出來的那個架構很合理啦 很合理啦那我們在文字來看一下 來我是覺得可以的話我們就共同看一下 看一下機關管嗎 你們看過了齁好 OK"},{"start":6032.287,"end":6044.656,"text":"我現在要跟你們拖久了,不然你們大家選了就像我這麼多人在這裡好,你給他加獎,給一杯"},{"start":6097.674,"end":6097.694,"text":"請先讀"},{"start":6132.083,"end":6158.76,"text":"確認同意二 第二十條本中心一 人員一涉密程度接受一般或特殊安全查核一般安全查核有監督機關依規定辦理涉及國家安全或重大利益之特殊安全查核應有監督機關會同相關機關辦理之對於規劃禁用之人員應先行辦理安全查核拒絕接受查核或查核未通過者"},{"start":6159.8,"end":6186.61,"text":"應不予禁用依法應實施安全查核而待於辦理查核之相關機關人員情節重大者應移送監察院依法處理安全查核之適用對象程序內容救濟等相關事項之辦法有監督機關會商有關機關定之提案人黃國昌、莊瑞雄、王宏威、吳思堯、王美惠、王逸川、陳培宇宣讀完畢"},{"start":6188.837,"end":6198.419,"text":"第二十條修正動議在場委員有沒有不同意見如果沒有的話我們就按照黃國昌委員等七人所提修正動議通過我們本案主條均已處理完畢來做以下的宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會公決本案是否需交由黨團協商"},{"start":6217.921,"end":6240.794,"text":"那院會討論的時候就由莊召集委員瑞雄我本人出席說明附帶決議一項一併提報院會處理調次引述條文部分文字跟法制的用字用語授權主席跟議事人員來整理"},{"start":6242.932,"end":6260.686,"text":"好 那議程所列的事項都已處理完畢我們本次的會議到此結束我們現在上會 謝謝大家我們下午一點再進行本會跟經濟委員會本會期第一次的聯席會議謝謝大家 大家辛苦了"},{"start":6281.685,"end":6282.086,"text":"貴一點點貴一點點"},{"start":6398.621,"end":6398.702,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"162069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f245e40fb444abfb77fe795f59f7b69f6aeead003a588ee379991b1f0c7435980ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"14:47:12 - 14:59:08","影片長度":"00:11:56","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T14:47:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T14:59:08+08:00","duration":716,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.44846875,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":1.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.3678437500000005,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.98346875,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.240343750000001,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.47221875,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.919093750000002,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.74534375,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.96034375,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.80346875,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.54096875,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.95846875,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.025968750000004,"end":32.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.274718750000005,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.384093750000005,"end":37.392218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.252843750000004,"end":44.361593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.90159375,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.74909375,"end":49.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.87971875,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.617843750000006,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.22534375,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":57.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.70971875,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.40159375,"end":58.890968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.890968750000006,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.32534375,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.11784375,"end":67.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.32034375,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.01596875,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.26471875,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.31534375000001,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.73909375000001,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.42971875,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.55596875,"end":97.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.68659375,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.44846875,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.73096875,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.56596875000001,"end":114.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.37159375,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.49784375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.88534375,"end":123.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.64471875000001,"end":149.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.89284375000001,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.54346875000002,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.36034375,"end":165.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.81096875,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.81909375,"end":176.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.23534375,"end":179.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.90159375000002,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.49534375000002,"end":191.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.03471875000002,"end":198.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.17284375000003,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker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謝謝主席主席請一下長照師市長來請長照師市長 朱市長來來 請請 你不用緊張啦委員好市長好 市長我們接續上一次的"},{"start":32.256,"end":51.685,"text":"執行就是上一次市長的答詢內容認為台灣不是福利國家那我也覺得長照是家庭責任對不對"},{"start":52.764,"end":66.851,"text":"應該是說國家跟家庭一起來照顧老人一起照顧不是家庭責任我剛剛是說無法替代無法替代家人照顧貴蒙責任嘛"},{"start":70.673,"end":92.398,"text":"那其實我看賴總統曾經講過要把台灣打造成老人福利國那長壽3.0大概也是為了因應國家來支持家庭共同照護老人這樣子的一個責任因應而生的"},{"start":96.621,"end":120.865,"text":"譬如說直系血親之間互相負有撫養的義務家庭也有撫養的責任但是不代表家庭有能力提供足夠的照顧特別是現在少子化那麼嚴重啊政府未來如何提高替代性或者普通性的服務能量分擔家庭責任"},{"start":122.703,"end":148.82,"text":"目前確實我們在長照的這些相關的措施裡面其實也是在協助家人一起來照顧所以包括提供家人可以有一些喘息家人需要工作的話我們也在佈建這些相關的居家服務社區式的服務來讓家人可以放心可以去安心"},{"start":149.84,"end":176.185,"text":"發揮他的專業那讓照顧長輩的交給專業的人來做照顧這個政策方向都是跟委員這邊剛剛垂詢的是一致的那現在長照的政策呢就是造成了長照悲歌啊悲劇啊一再發生長照政策把照顧者視為工具人"},{"start":177.335,"end":198.15,"text":"那國家呢 有很多學者跟團體一直在呼籲國家應該保護照顧者那其實也應該要 就是受照顧者必須要得到國家的支持照顧者也需要"},{"start":199.505,"end":207.061,"text":"頻繁的長照杯葛不應該是台灣老化的宿命長照3.0的部分"},{"start":212.064,"end":231.559,"text":"假如以市長上一次答詢的時候回答照顧需要照顧者的責任是家庭的話那顯然跟民團和學者的看法不大一樣現在你們長照3.0要怎麼亡羊補牢"},{"start":233.161,"end":243.268,"text":"跟委員再一次的澄清說明上一次的詢答我沒有說這個是家人的責任我一直強調是說我們的長照制度在我們的稅收規模下我們無法替代完全替代家人照顧概念上"},{"start":252.034,"end":272.648,"text":"意思就是說今天如果家因為我們在我們的民法本來就有父父撫養義務所以本來在我們的國情裡面其實家人扮演很重要的支持角色那政府就是很重要的除了被照顧者在長福法裡面也已經在立法院通過的長福法已經把"},{"start":273.268,"end":288.744,"text":"支持照顧者也入法所以對於長照制度的建構裡面除了被照顧者的服務我們也同步關注照顧者要有支持市長我講兩點第一點就是說所有的政策入法"},{"start":289.905,"end":312.959,"text":"並不能解決一切的問題這個是第一個觀念第二個就是你上一次怎麼詢答的呢因為今天時間太短了我下一次回放給你看好了我問繼續問市長台灣因為稅收太低所以不是福利國家這個可能是可以探討的"},{"start":314.502,"end":340.622,"text":"那長照的責任在於家庭那政府也願意分擔一定的工作那要長照長照森林要加深加廣服務的網絡必須要有更多的支出稅收制的長照制度顯然沒有辦法因應一切"},{"start":343.638,"end":357.007,"text":"市長你對於把台灣的長照資金來源從現在的稅收制改成保險稅收雙軌制的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":362.134,"end":388.84,"text":"跟委員說明目前其實我們的長照基金去年年底是累積還有2039億那累積到今年的3月底現在是2200多億還有那麼多錢啊是是是我跟委員說明還有那麼多錢啊是是那所以目前沒有減薪就沒得做了沒有減薪就沒得做了我們的服務涵蓋率非常高我們服務涵蓋率已經達到去年年底就達到84%點多了"},{"start":395.102,"end":412.53,"text":"我拿一個行政院的報告跟市長做個探討就是說監察院目前的報告就是說目前的長照政策對於減輕重度失能家庭負擔的注意不大"},{"start":414.308,"end":433.062,"text":"監委指出112年各目標群體長照服務的涵蓋率顯然有落差近八成的長照幾支部服務使用的對象為輕中度失能者"},{"start":434.885,"end":454.485,"text":"這個恐怕就是重度的失能者用不到恐怕是基金還有那麼多錢的主要原因就最需要的反而用不到我們的制度然後基金還有三千億兩千多億"},{"start":457.052,"end":462.236,"text":"也跟有人說明事實上我們現在確實給支付是鼓勵因為我們國內的長輩"},{"start":473.606,"end":486.538,"text":"都一直嚮往就是留在自己最熟悉的社區中老那其實所以整個的給支付的政策也回應我們國人的一個嚮往跟需求所以對於居家跟社區的目前有納入給支付那"},{"start":488.6,"end":505.721,"text":"住宿型24小時照顧機構目前確實調查下來無法生活自理的老人被問到的時候大概只有三成六說願意到這24小時住宿機構這邊來接受中老那所以這樣的一個比例其實還有待提升所以我們一直"},{"start":506.221,"end":511.946,"text":"努力的也運用長照基金在針對現在全國有1800家的這些住宿機構能夠強化他的照顧品質那把品質這邊提升上來之後我們也希望老人在被問到的時候他的優先選擇可以到住宿型機構"},{"start":522.734,"end":545.271,"text":"如果這個時間到了或許在住宿型機構我們可以把它導入給支付那所以現階段我們才用定額補助的方式來補助這些住民那現階段是一年12萬那賴總統也有提出要一年提高到18萬那我們這個部分會整體配合整個的一個政府的政策來把它提高"},{"start":546.064,"end":562.35,"text":"市長我們有在112年我們有22萬左右的失能者是聘僱外籍看護工那這些人裡面只有4成"},{"start":563.59,"end":583.471,"text":"曾經使用過長照服務現況在使用長照服務其中超過三分之一只使用一項那這一項最多的就是喘息服務也就是說其實我們的長照制度並沒有辦法很普遍的覆蓋到"},{"start":586.707,"end":604.635,"text":"最需要的人假如說我們有辦法覆蓋到最需要使用到長照制度的這些人呢我想長照背歌不會一再的演唱這個是一個事實那"},{"start":607.828,"end":634.453,"text":"怎麼讓使用者更方便可以使用到長照提供的需求怎麼去找到需求的人我覺得這個都是長照師必須要去做的事情不要等到悲劇發生了再說什麼都來不及"},{"start":634.972,"end":653.241,"text":"是 跟委員報告 聘外籍看護工這一塊其實本來大概使用都不到兩成所以我們經過這幾年一直努力那我們也把這個這樣的指標列為考核地方政府的一個長照的考核指標所以近期已經攀升到"},{"start":654.661,"end":680.737,"text":"外籍看護工提高到4成你可能也不用拿出來這邊講因為外籍看護工就是因為移工的勞動意識也強了啦所以早期沒有再讓人家休假現在休假當然會所以才會說喘息服務是最多被申請的項目交通接送也很多懂我意思嗎"},{"start":682.618,"end":709.77,"text":"對 教訓接受 然後還有那個復聚護障今天還有預算解凍要處理所以我們先討論到這邊那有關長照的問題呢我覺得是民進黨執政不可迴避的責任那也希望市長這邊不管在政策的擬定或是政策的落實都必須要加把勁是 好 謝謝委員謝謝市長 謝謝主席"},{"start":712.779,"end":715.104,"text":"可以了 你可以了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2031,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（14時47分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下長照司司長。"],["主席：請長照司祝司長。"],["祝司長健芳：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：司長好。司長，我們接續上一次的質詢，其實上一次司長的答詢內容，認為臺灣不是福利國家，也覺得長照是家庭責任，對不對？"],["祝司長健芳：應該是說國家跟家庭一起來照顧老人。"],["楊委員曜：一起照顧。"],["祝司長健芳：對，一起照顧。"],["楊委員曜：不是家庭責任？因為你上一次……"],["祝司長健芳：我上次是說無法替代……"],["楊委員曜：沒有，我們回去有重新……"],["祝司長健芳：無法替代家人照顧。"],["楊委員曜：好，沒有關係，共同責任嘛！"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["楊委員曜：其實我看賴總統曾經講過，要把臺灣打造成老人福利國，那長照3.0大概也是為了因應國家來支持家庭共同照護老人這樣子的一個責任……"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["楊委員曜：因應而生的，譬如說直系血親之間互相負有扶養的義務，家庭也有扶養的責任，但是不代表家庭有能力提供足夠的照顧，特別是現在少子化那麼嚴重，政府未來如何提高替代性或者是補充性的服務能量來分擔家庭責任？怎麼提高？"],["祝司長健芳：目前確實我們在長照這些相關的措施裡面，其實也是在協助家人一起來照顧，包括提供家人可以有一些喘息，那家人需要工作的話，我們也在布建相關的居家服務、社區式的服務來讓家人可以放心，可以安心去發揮他的專業，將長輩交給專業的人來做照顧，這個政策方向與委員剛剛的垂詢是一致的。"],["楊委員曜：好，現在長照的政策造成長照悲歌、悲劇一再發生，長照政策把照顧者視為工具人，有很多學者和團體一直在呼籲國家應該要保護照顧者，就是受照顧者必須要得到國家的支持，照顧者也需要，頻繁的長照悲歌不應該是臺灣老化的宿命。長照3.0的部分，假如以司長上一次答詢的時候，回答照顧需要照顧者的責任是家庭的話，顯然跟民團和學者的看法不大一樣，現在你們長照3.0要怎麼亡羊補牢？"],["祝司長健芳：是，向委員再一次澄清說明，上一次的詢答我沒有說這個是家人的責任，我一直強調的是，長照制度在我們的稅收規模下，無法完全替代家人照顧。概念上，意思就是說，因為在民法本來就有互負扶養義務，所以本來在我們的國情裡面，其實家人扮演很重要的支持角色，那政府很重要的就是，除了被照顧者，在立法院通過的長服法已經把支持照顧者也入法，所以對於長照制度的建構裡面，除了被照顧者的一些服務，我們也同步關注照顧者要有支持。"],["楊委員曜：司長，我講兩點，第一點，所有的政策入法並不能解決一切的問題，這是第一個觀念。第二個，你上一次怎麼詢答的呢？因為今天的時間太短，我下一次回放給你看好了。我繼續問司長，臺灣因為稅收太低，所以不是福利國家，這個是可以探討的，那長照的責任在於家庭，政府也願意分擔一定的工作。"],["祝司長健芳：對，跟家人共同來照顧。"],["楊委員曜：長照3.0要加深加廣服務的網絡，必須要有更多的支出，稅收制的長照制度顯然沒有辦法因應一切，司長，對於臺灣的長照資金來源，從現在的稅收制改成保險稅收雙軌制，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["祝司長健芳：跟委員說明，長照基金在去年年底累積還有2,039億，累積到今年的3月底是兩千兩百多億，現在的長照基金。"],["楊委員曜：還有那麼多錢啊！"],["祝司長健芳：是，也跟委員說明……"],["楊委員曜：還有那麼多錢啊！"],["祝司長健芳：是，所以目前……"],["楊委員曜：不缺錢的話就是沒有在做，不缺錢更嚴重。"],["祝司長健芳：沒有，我們的服務涵蓋率非常高，服務涵蓋率在去年年底就達到百分之八十四點多了。"],["楊委員曜：司長這樣子講，我拿一個報告跟司長做個探討，監察院的報告說目前的長照政策對於減輕重度失能家庭負擔的助益不大，監委指出，112年各目標群體長照服務的涵蓋率顯然有落差，近八成的長照給支付服務使用對象為輕中度失能者，重度的失能者用不到，這個恐怕是基金還有那麼多錢的主要原因，就是最需要的反而用不到我們的制度，然後基金還有3,000億啊？"],["主席：兩千多億。"],["祝司長健芳：兩千多億。"],["楊委員曜：兩千多億，沒有在問你啦！"],["祝司長健芳：謝謝召委補充說明。也跟委員說明，事實上我們現在確實給支付是鼓勵，因為國內的長輩一直想望的就是留在自己最熟悉的社區終老，所以整個給支付的政策也回應國人的想望與需求，目前對於居家和社區的有納入給支付。至於住宿型24小時的照顧機構，目前確實調查下來，無法生活自理的老人被問到的時候，大概只有三成六說願意到24小時住宿機構來接受終老，這樣的一個比例其實還有待提升，所以我們一直努力地，也運用長照基金，針對現在全國1,800家的住宿機構能夠強化它的照顧品質。把品質提升上來之後，我們也希望老人在被問到的時候，他的優先選擇可以到住宿型機構，如果這個時間到了，或許在住宿型機構我們可以把它導入給支付，所以現階段我們才用定額補助的方式來補助這些住民，現階段是一年12萬，賴總統也有提出一年要提高到18萬，我們這個部分會整體配合政府的政策來把它提高。"],["楊委員曜：司長，在112年有22萬左右的失能者是聘僱外籍看護移工。"],["祝司長健芳：外籍看護工。"],["楊委員曜：這些人裡面只有四成曾經使用過長照服務。"],["祝司長健芳：現況在使用長照服務。"],["楊委員曜：對，其中超過三分之一只使用一項，最多的一項就是喘息服務。"],["祝司長健芳：喘息服務。"],["楊委員曜：也就是說，其實長照制度並沒有辦法很普遍地覆蓋到最需要的人，假如我們有辦法覆蓋到最需要使用長照制度的這些人，我想長照悲歌不會一再地演唱，這是一個事實，怎麼讓使用者可以更方便地使用到長照提供的服務、怎麼去找到有需求的人，我覺得這個都是長照司必須要去做的事情。"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["楊委員曜：不要等到悲劇發生了，再說什麼都來不及。"],["祝司長健芳：是，跟委員報告，聘外籍看護工這一塊，其實本來大概使用都不到兩成，我們經過這幾年一直努力，也把這樣的指標列為考核地方政府長照的指標，所以近期已經攀升到接近四成。"],["楊委員曜：不是啦！外籍看護工提高到四成，你可能也不用拿出來在這邊講，因為移工的勞動意識也強了，早期沒有在讓人家休假，現在有休假當然會提高，所以才會說喘息服務是最多被申請的項目。"],["祝司長健芳：交通接送也很多。"],["楊委員曜：懂我的意思哦？"],["祝司長健芳：對，交通接送，還有輔具、無障礙……"],["楊委員曜：沒有關係，因為今天還有預算解凍要處理，所以我們先討論到這邊，有關長照的問題我覺得是民進黨執政不可迴避的責任，也希望司長這邊，不管在政策的擬定或是政策的落實都必須要加把勁。"],["祝司長健芳：是，好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝司長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：本日會議詢答全部結束。委員陳昭姿、張嘉郡、林德福、廖偉翔、涂權吉、李坤城所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳昭姿書面質詢：","衛福部解凍報告援引九年前家庭與生育調查結果作為政策依據，未能反映當前社會風氣與法制環境之變遷。倘若反對代孕的民意主因為法律配套不足、金錢糾紛憂慮及保障機制不明，則衛福部更應積極推動立法，透過制度化保障代理孕母及委託人雙方權益。以偏頗民調作為政策拖延藉口，無異以社會觀感剝奪個人生育權，違反平等原則與基本人權保障，本席對其報告理由表達遺憾，請衛福部提出更新調查時程及人工生殖法法制研議進度說明。","一、醫護工會指出，目前我國醫護及教保人力配置長期不足，導致基層人員長期處於高壓、過勞狀態，工會要求「修法保障醫護人員工時與休息權」並落實勞基法工時上限、保障加班費，請問衛福部如何與勞動部合作，檢討現行責任制制度之適用對象與適用範圍？強化醫護教保等責任制行業之勞動條件檢查與執行？","二、衛生福利部雖已於2024年公告三班護病比標準，並自3月1日起採取獎勵先行實施，惟工會調查指出，九成醫院未符合公告標準，且多數醫院並未採取補人力或調整床數之實際作為，甚至對護理人員表示「未入法無罰則，無須遵守」。請衛福部說明目前推行成果，並公告「三班護病比」正式入法之期程與配套措施。","三、現行「獎勵實施」制度僅為過渡措施，缺乏具體獎勵機制、金額、發放時間及預算來源，導致醫院缺乏動機落實護病比標準。且目前三班護病比政策僅適用於一般急性病房，對於精神病房、急診、慢性病房、洗腎室等特殊單位未設有明確標準。工會調查亦顯示逾九成護理人員認為應涵蓋特殊單位。請問衛福部是否已啟動規劃作業？請說明公告期程，並承諾邀集護理工會與基層代表共同研擬，建構完整制度。","四、工會反映部分醫院以符合護病比為由禁止休假、強迫跨科支援、壓迫護理人員放棄特休等行為，已涉違勞動法令。請問衛福部與勞動部有無掌握相關情事？如何強化勞檢與通報處置機制？","一、依據歷年總額、藥費占比及藥價差比例推估，近年藥價差已達700餘億元，此筆款項來自全民繳交的健保費，原該用於病患照護及藥品管理，卻成為醫療院所彌補醫事費用不足所致之虧損之來源。基於健保署未能有效管控醫療院所超出合理範圍之藥價差，監察院亦曾於104年對衛福部及健保署提出糾正；於108年國衛院亦召開論壇，建議建立健保藥價差管控機制，惟迄今具體措施及中長期改革目標仍未落實。若政府對醫藥撥補仍不足，在不調整健保費率情形下，藥價差越顯著健保就越吃緊，造成惡性循環。","圖一：歷年推估之藥價差金額（億元）","註：依據健保署歷年藥費資料、98年至108年藥費占比（108年後以108年進行推估）、平均藥價差以30%及15%推估","二、藥價差長期被視為彌補不足醫療服務點值的手段，醫療服務點值已於2024年底撥補至每點0.9元，衛福部於本年六月確保每點0.95元之點值，應連動縮減藥價差並訂定中短期目標；在醫療服務報酬（診療費、手術費等）合理調整下，使醫院營運回歸以醫療本業尋求永續經營。","三、現行藥費支出目標制合理藥價差（R-zone）為15%，係參考日本所訂定的合理藥價差範圍，藥價差現況以偏離多時。應以現行基準作為台灣合理藥價差，同時在額度中同時考量藥品管理成本；對於超出合理藥價差的額度應適度回歸總額或實質調整健保價格反饋給民眾。請國衛院等研究機構針對台灣藥價差與醫療支出管理政策進行深入研究，包含藥價三合一政策或仿照日本進行階梯式調整藥價差之形式。","四、請衛福部就如何與醫界、產業界、病友團體開啟協商機制，共同界定合理藥價差的基準及其中藥品的管理費用，針對不同藥品類型（如製造成本與藥品生命週期）、藥品管理難度（如儲藏方式）等面向，提出具體規劃與時程表。","一、依據玉姐案及劉哲彰案等行政訴訟實例，現行由地方政府設上限的個人助理服務時數缺乏法源依據與評估邏輯、公式，易淪為排除資源責任之工具。衛福部是否已就現行制度進行檢討，並規劃提出合理評估工具？請說明研究進度及預計完成期程。","二、各界質疑現行個人助理制度已與原始「障礙者為主體」的精神背離，淪為長照制度之補充，且因財源主要依賴公益彩券而無法穩定支持重度使用者需求。請衛福部說明是否有短中長期之財政規劃，以確保服務可近性？","三、參考日本、韓國等國，對個人助理服務均有獨立立法、穩定財源與明確保障標準。我國《身心障礙者權益保障法》已逾17年未修，衛福部是否已彙整各國立法與制度比較研究？是否規劃召開研商會議，廣納障礙者與學者實務工作者意見，提出符合台灣脈絡之制度重建藍圖？請提供相關會議規劃與時程表。","四、目前我國無關於個人助理制度之專章或專法，導致各縣市政府詮釋不一、資源分配不均。衛福部是否已著手研議將個人助理服務納入《身心障礙者權益保障法》之專章立法？"],["委員張嘉郡書面質詢：","近日接連驗出三批含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉，消費者文教基金會針對進口萊豬進行一份嚴謹的民調，調查了1,054位消費者，調查結果高達90%消費者在意是否購買到含瘦肉精肉品；64%民眾支持進口肉品應「逐批檢驗」；76%的民眾表示「不同意」販售含瘦肉精肉品。產地標示部分，有80%民眾購買時會看產地標示，但實際上僅有11%曾看過萊劑相關標示，18%甚至未看到任何標示。","一、現今中央針對進口豬肉之邊境查驗，抽樣比例仍不足10%，引發社會大眾對政府食品安全管理作為之高度疑慮，尚需仰賴地方政府衛生局擴大檢驗，以安民心。惟食藥署過去曾表示具備執行100%逐批查驗之能力，請問現階段恢復逐批查驗是否有窒礙難行之處？","二、蔡英文政府於開放美國豬肉進口時曾宣示，「在保障民眾知情權與選擇權的前提下」所作之決策。然而現況為，萊豬流向資訊未公開、相關標示亦不透明，導致消費者難以做出明確判斷。請問，政府將如何強化資訊揭露及標示機制，以真正保障民眾選擇與知情之權益？"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","問題一","2025年公費四價流感疫苗採購案，總計採購686萬劑，分別向國光生，GSK、東洋、賽諾菲、高端等五家業者採購流感疫苗。","「流感」與「新冠」疫情最近有升溫的情況，請問疾管署，2025流感疫苗接種時間是否會如同往年於10月開始接種？或提早？","「衛福部」是否會再次加購「蛋白質次單元新冠疫苗」，接種流感疫苗的同時，是否也鼓勵民眾同步接種新冠疫苗？","問題二","另外，隨著年紀增加，人體免疫系統老化，導致接種流感疫苗的保護效果打折。2025年1月的數據顯示，65歲以上的人口數已達450萬8,419人，占總人口的19.27%，國內專家指出，應儘速將「免疫加強型疫苗」納入公費接種範疇。","請問衛福部，「免疫加強型疫苗」目前有哪些業者有能力供貨？","由於2025年流感疫苗已完成採購作業，衛福部是否會另外以專案方式公費採購流感「免疫加強型疫苗」嗎？預計可以涵蓋65歲以上人口數量有多少？","問題三","台灣已經是高齡化社會，政府鼓勵長者多出門走走，增進體能、情緒健康。但某些縣市鄉鎮，大眾運輸不足，部分高齡駕駛只能自駕，以滿足日常外出需求。","現行的長照給付，補助民眾使用「交通接送服務」，僅提供長照給付對象往返居家至社區式服務類長照機構或至醫療院所就醫、復健、透析治療之交通接送。","若希望長者不要自己騎車開車，方便的公共運輸就很重要，政府要拿出配套措施，與相關補助，協助高齡長者轉而使用其他交通替代工具。","本席建議「衛生福利部」檢討放寬「長照交通車」使用方式，研擬給予一定次數，試行彈性增加「醫院以外」的停靠點，以嘉惠高齡長者外出的需求。","問題四","根據「衛福部」統計112年1至10月，提供居家服務的居服員人數為5萬6,420人。","隨著台灣逐漸邁入超高齡社會，長照需求大增，然而居服員年齡偏中高齡，出現老老照護等長照困境。其中，女性與男性居服員年齡年逾55歲者，合計19,293人。","照護者在工作時經常需要進行平行移位、翻身、拍背及轉位等動作，這些負重的動作相當的頻繁。","建請「衛福部」會同「經濟部」與「勞動部」研擬「居服員」使用「輕型外骨骼輔具」推動路徑，以減輕照服員生理與心理上的照顧壓力，避免職業傷害，降低人力耗損，進而維護長照資源。"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","鑒於「剴剴案」等虐童案件層出不窮，引起社會廣泛關注，顯示托育機構內部監督機制的不足。針對此類事件，衛福部監督機制顯有不足。朝野立委與行政院，皆有提出《兒童托育服務法》版本，為釐清該法案詳細內容與制度，爰向衛福部提出書面質詢。","說明：","1.根據行政院通過之衛福部版本《兒童托育服務法》草案，政府將放寬公有不動產以無償方式提供非營利性質法人使用，並明定運用學校餘裕空間辦理托育機構，免變更使用執照，以加速托育機構公共化。請問衛福部長，目前全國各縣市公共托育中心的分布情形為何？於法案通過後一年，衛福部自行評估加速效益為何？","2.於推動公共托育資源佈建的過程中，地方政府的配合度與執行力至關重要。請問衛福部如何協助地方政府克服在設置公共托育中心時可能面臨的困難，例如場地取得、經費不足、人力短缺等問題？是否有具體的輔導或獎勵措施？是否有建立中央與地方政府之間的溝通與協調機制，確保政策的順利推動與落實？","3.於諸多虐童、不當對待之案件中，事件之通報，藉由吹哨者通報之比例占近約半數。惟衛福部版本草案中，吹哨者條款未列於其中，衛福部對此態度如何？未列入草案之原因又如何？"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","本(5)月國內C0VID-19疫情再度升溫，據疾管署公告資料，第21週新冠就診人次達41,402例，較前一週上升，並較去年同期翻倍成長，已連續七週上升。新増本土重症個案102例、死亡19例，累計重症432例、死亡66例，其中逾九成未接種最新疫苗，另有一名年僅1個月大的男嬰重症送醫，顯示病毒對嬰幼兒之威脅仍不容忽視。","目前國內主流流行株為XBB亞型中的NB.1.8.1，具高度免疫逃脫與傳播力，近期亦陸續檢出KP.2與KP.3變異株，為美國CDC近期預警之高關注株。雖多數個案為輕症，惟高齡、慢性病與免疫低下者仍為重症與死亡主因，但嬰幼兒等族群雖為少數但風險仍不容輕忽。目前我國COVID-19疫苗接種涵蓋率已大幅下滑，第六劑（XBB疫苗）接種人數截至5月26日僅90餘萬人；然就兒童與婦女族群而言，現階段政策指引模糊，未見明確接種建議，尤以6歲以下嬰幼兒接種情形最為低落，社區端缺乏可近性施打場域與針對性衛教資訊，家長普遍無所適從，另孕產婦、晡乳期婦女之疫苗建議，至今缺乏專門評估與臨床溝通架構，容易導致接種遲疑，實為防疫破口之一。","本席注意到，美國CDC已建議健康兒童可不列入常規COVID-19疫苗接種對象。若未來我國衛福部比照辦理，將兒童排除於常規接種對象外，請問有何具體配套機制以防止其感染與重症風險？尤其托嬰、幼兒園與學校環境密閉、人員密集，口罩與個人衛生措施難以落實，若疫苗亦缺乏保護，形同讓最弱勢族群暴露於風險之中。","防疫政策不能僅仰賴疫苗施打與個人自主管理，對於尚無施打能力的嬰幼兒及家庭，政府有責任提出明確的防護策略與實質支援。請衛福部評估目前兒童與婦女接種建議，是否需因應美國施打政策而調整，並於兩週內提出完整因應方案，包含若未建議施打時，如何透過環境控制、公共衛教、快篩與抗病毒藥物取得等方式，保障該族群健康安全，以防未來疫情反撲時，社會最脆弱的一環首當其衝。"],["委員李坤城書面質詢：","案由：2023年底，等待出養的剴剴安置在保母家，因不當對待而離世，年僅1歲10個月的生命猝然結束，令人不捨。近日一審宣判，保母姊妹分判無期與18年有期徒刑，是至今兒虐案判刑最重的案例。更重要的是，在罪與罰之外，我們如何能避免下一個悲劇發生？","行政院會8日拍板通過《兒童托育服務法》草案，針對0到2歲托育規範單獨立法，總共有6章、78條文，另外托育及就業政策催生聯盟先前公布民間版「兒童托育服務法」修法版本，民間版草案與院版不同之處在於民間版明確提出法案價值目標，並規範中央政府資源發展任務。針對安全問題，民間版要求先行開罰再限期改善，且建立違規記點與退場機制，規定居家托育人員若兩年內違規達6點，需暫停新收托8個月並公布姓名。","在勞動權益方面，民間版加強基層托育人員保障，確保疑似違法時調查程序公正透明，同時推動偏遠及原住民族地區公共托育發展；居家托育方面，民間版將居家托育服務中心全面入法，明定工作責任義務，並要求中央制定收費標準，保障居家托育人員收入，與準公共機構式托育看齊；在收費審議機制部分，民間版要求中央主管機關審酌物價指數、當地收費情形、家庭可支配所得、公教及民間調薪幅度，並於每兩年公告各縣市居家托育收退費項目及基準。","此外，民間版條文加強基層托育人員勞動權益保障，確保疑似違法時的調查程序公正、透明，也希望普及偏遠地區及原住民族的公共托育發展，另將居家托育服務中心全面入法，明定工作責任義務，也要保障居家式托育人員收入，比照準公共機構式托育，由中央訂定。然而本法除了回應保母管理制度的缺漏之外，其實在更前緣還有一個值得探究的問題是：「保母制度，真的適合作為兒少安置系統的一環嗎？」","寄養家庭長期不足，居家保母成為安置服務選項","「家外安置」常是因為兒童原生家庭功能不足，可能因為家暴、父母生病或入獄、等待出養等原因，須另覓能讓孩子好好長大的穩定環境，所以才讓孩子移出原生家庭，尋求家外安置。通常「寄養家庭」因為具有家庭形式的成長環境，較能提供孩子穩定停泊的安定居所，而成為家外安置的優先選擇。","近年寄養家庭招募不易，以致於安置服務供給量長期不足，居家保母開始成為安置服務的一環。但是，「安置」代表的是全年無休的照顧需求，與居家保母原先的「托育」性質有極大的落差。托育預設是作為「家長工作時的照顧替手」，屬於「補充性服務」，保母會有「上、下班時段」，通常是平日白天照顧孩子，晚上與假日則將孩子交回由家長照顧。","相關法規要求保母在上班時段中要「專心托育」，必須專職而不得兼做他事（上銀行、寄信、添購日常用品等），更不得將孩子交給他人照顧。但安置兒童的照顧卻是24小時、全年無休，孩子等同於「搬進來一起生活」這樣的照顧需求，套用在一般居家托育，就像要保母得「一直上班」。原本安置時間長度依法「建議以6個月為原則」，但彭婉如文教基金會曾與幾個縣市的居托中心督導交流「由保母提供安置服務」的經驗，發現「超時安置」的現象普遍存在。","安置保母條件寬鬆，上課6小時就能收托安置兒","居家托育人員相對於寄養家庭，在收托安置兒童的人員資格認定上寬鬆得多。","如前節所述，制度想像的是合格登記的保母個人來提供照顧，因此在安置資格審查時，僅對保母「個人」設定簡單篩選門檻，包括無《兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》所定不得擔任者之情事、具有居托服務經驗且有意願照顧安置個案、依「居家式托育服務提供者登記及管理辦法」訪視輔導情況良好。","有居托中心督導表示，安置保母根本就是「只要你想，就可以做」，有意願的保母只要培訓上完僅6小時的課，就能收托安置兒童，資格門檻形同虛設。","相比之下，寄養家庭預設是「整個家庭」提供照顧，因此審查資格及程序相對嚴格，不僅以「家庭整體」作為評估對象，更須經縣市政府召開審查會議通過後，才能成為寄養家庭。","居家保母提供的主要是「一般托育」，無論在服務類型或收托時間上，都不同於「安置照顧」的需求。因此將一般托育的居家保母，轉銜成為安置照顧服務所用，而沒有相應的制度調整與支持下，可能引發諸多問題，請衛福部於兩周內就以下疑義回復本席國會辦公室：","一、如何解決寄養家庭長期不足，弱勢兒童家外安置問題？","二、如何解決提供安置服務的保母全年無休、過度勞動的狀況？"],["主席：先作以下決議：一、報告說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","接下來處理討論事項預算凍結報告案計13案，請一併宣讀。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162067","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24bd05a71e072c6fb6e795f59f7b69f6ae0eca21237c41e092e704fec7cb43ff685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"14:34:40 - 14:46:55","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T14:34:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T14:46:55+08:00","duration":735,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.48971875,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.04659375,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.67471875,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.78784375,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.93971875,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.28784375,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.92721875,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.180343750000006,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.664718750000006,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.001593750000005,"end":56.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.579093750000006,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.063468750000006,"end":64.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.13471875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.57096875,"end":103.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.16346875,"end":99.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.44096875000001,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.15346875,"end":107.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.53284375000001,"end":110.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.57909375000001,"end":111.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.82784375000001,"end":127.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.01096875000002,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.41159375,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.29096875000002,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.84346875,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":161.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.65971875,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.28409375,"end":164.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.62971875000002,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.04721875,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.50221875,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.97034375,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.13034375,"end":177.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.18096875,"end":174.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.78409375,"end":176.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.96096875,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.58909375000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.05659375000002,"end":192.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.57471875000002,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.36284375000002,"end":198.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.08846875,"end":207.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.81284375,"end":213.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.29721875,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.13596875000002,"end":231.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.75096875000003,"end":226.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.60659375,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.68596875000003,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.65596875000003,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.91659375,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.31721875000002,"end":249.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.00034375,"end":251.50221875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對你剛剛說是"},{"start":178.001,"end":197.614,"text":"陽明交大的一個團隊來協助我們那已經有很多很多年的歷史了這件事情我看了之後因為我本身是獨立背景出身的對於相關的資訊跟訊息我想他是可以積極加速的我想請教一下這個單位他們過去幾年一年大概審多少件"},{"start":199.274,"end":218.676,"text":"我跟委員報告一下他剛才有講出兩個相次嘛一個叫做問卷的時候是不是第二個叫安全性評估兩個加起來量一年是寫15個所以KPI寫15件而已所以他們現在就是近一兩年大概他們收的案件是多少"},{"start":219.678,"end":244.728,"text":"收購案件目前大概塞車大概還有10件還沒有完成歷年來大概他就是滿足大概15件KPI大概就是這樣子的程度而已所以那個署長你們會不會考慮就是還要再增加委外的團隊還是增加經費讓他們再多就是說能夠趕上你們送件的速度還是你要更換"},{"start":245.968,"end":260.543,"text":"委外的團隊你有什麼樣比較具體的做法去加速這些審查好 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謝謝那請回座謝謝那接下來請那個部長跟口腔師"},{"start":349.343,"end":357.526,"text":"去年有預告檳榔健康防治法,在你們預告之前除了找相關專家學者討論之外,請問有沒有找業者來徵詢他們的意見?"},{"start":369.31,"end":388.804,"text":"當然有但是因為你們遇到的版本民間還是有很多的意見那本席在這裡要提出幾項就請你們再認真檢討一下第一項就是條文的第五條你們用所有販賣檳榔的業者都要做登記主要目的是為什麼那個請口香師師長"},{"start":395.177,"end":409.972,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個的話我們有收到很多人在反映說這個這樣的話會造成一些大家會覺得有點執行上的困難所以我們有收到大家的意見也召開很多會議我們會朝說讓民眾比較能夠接受的"},{"start":416.578,"end":444.185,"text":"你這樣講我也是聽不出什麼具體啦執行上的困難什麼困難這個會處理我想點一下就是那個當然把所有業者做統一的管理的時候難免就是會讓人家聯想到就是說你們接下來就是要課稅不會課稅那再不然就可能是宣導對象尋找困難是嗎"},{"start":446.184,"end":456.529,"text":"還是你們想要想要就是找出所有的對象所以利用登記的方式就不會漏掉任何一家"},{"start":458.977,"end":482.844,"text":"跟委員報告 其實當初這個是我們最原始最原始的檔案嘛 最原始的版本後來經過大家不斷的討論陳儒我們剛剛我們部長所講我們會處理那我們會再循序漸進那我們會有以輔導以輔導來代替 畢竟現在因為我沒記錯依照財政部所登記一些稅籍資料全台灣大概有檳榔攤大概有將近8000家"},{"start":486.705,"end":514.317,"text":"然後我們會優先從這樣慢慢去輔導因為至少我們已經有掌握了一些我想在這邊反映一個問題當然就是說對於這個宣導檳榔對人體的危害這個我是200%贊成那只是說就是說如果要講到就是說剛剛你說不會課稅那可能就還好一點因為畢竟就是說你們原先訂那個營收8萬以上的業者"},{"start":515.177,"end":540.171,"text":"要課稅 那個不是我們訂的 不是你們訂的那個是財稅單位訂的 好那因為八萬是這樣啦就是說他的營收是營收但是如果扣掉人力的成本然後再加上這個比如說水電啦等等等這些可能到最後他實際上的這個月收其實不是很高所以這個部分或許這樣的政策既然"},{"start":540.931,"end":556.397,"text":"引起恐慌那你們如果有知道要再檢討那是很好的那就是說再好好討論討論那另外就是說第8條的規定殯葬業者不得僱用未成年員工我想要請教一下部長你們這個規定的目的又是什麼"},{"start":557.981,"end":580.913,"text":"不得僱用未成年員工我們應該年滿保護兒少那你為什麼不放在兒少法或者是保護兒少可是我們回頭去看另外一個在煙害防治法裡面並沒有限制未成年的這個就沒有限制他們說不能僱用未成年員工"},{"start":584.287,"end":606.009,"text":"這個賣檳榔就要保護而燒 賣煙就不用保護而燒你的邏輯是什麼這樣子好了 部長我在這裡大膽假設啦你們是不是這條規定就是不希望未成年的這個未成年的這些人是不要去從事這個檳榔稀釋的工作是這樣吧"},{"start":609.149,"end":630.17,"text":"有這樣的意思那如果是這樣的意思就像我剛剛舉例因為你們要考慮到我只要提醒就是說在你把這個希望未成年者不要從事這個檳榔稀釋的工作你把它放在檳榔健康防治法的這邊規範是不是有點怪怪的"},{"start":631.411,"end":652.208,"text":"因為陰害防治法實施到現在已經快30年了,那有沒有要求超商說不得雇用未成年人員工?也沒有嗎?超商可以雇用未成年人員工嗎?其實勞動力的計算應該是15歲以上應該就可以去打工了吧?"},{"start":653.98,"end":663.785,"text":"這個你們可能不太熟我現在點出來你們要去想一想因為兒少是兒少工作權是工作權所以這個你們要分清楚"},{"start":664.907,"end":684.872,"text":"如果你要去規範你們如果很在乎這個檳榔西施那是不是要一定放在這個地方所以你們要好好想想因為有工作權的問題因為來我們看一下這個下一張圖這兩家呢他都有在登那個真人廣告的檳榔攤"},{"start":686.112,"end":707.268,"text":"他們不只賣檳榔也賣菸酒的批發所以這個刊登求職廣告的薪水待遇時薪大概就是一百九那月薪比基本公司好一點點大概三萬出頭那如果按照第八條的規定以後未滿十八歲的這個年輕人就不可以在這些地方打工啊對不對"},{"start":711.345,"end":730.681,"text":"不是只有賣檳榔、喝煙酒一起賣但是單賣煙酒卻可以18歲以下去打工所以你們的邏輯是有問題的啦這樣會影響到年輕人部分年輕人的工作權我就在這邊提出所以今天好好想一想你們這樣規範的位置對不對好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1959,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（14時34分）謝謝主席！麻煩請食藥署署長。"],["主席：請姜署長。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好！我想請教一下，向你們申請作為食品原料，在所有資料都備妥的情況下，外部審查通常需要多久的時間？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員進一步報告這個議題，這個叫做非傳統食品原料安全性評估，目前是委託陽明交大的團隊協助我們，那有兩個部分，他說一個部分是一般判定是否為非傳統性食品原料的問卷，需時1個月，然後是非傳統性食品原料安全性評估，需時2個月，可是就我個人目前就任兩個多月，今天剛好滿3個月，看到的情形是「天荒地久」，竟然有超過3年的。我覺得非常非常對不起委員以及各位國人，針對一些新興非傳統性的食品需要怎麼樣的去積極研議這件事情，我會深自去做反省跟改進。"],["陳委員瑩：我想你剛剛講有發現超過3年的，應該就是我們辦公室送去的這個案例，螢幕上這張圖片裡的植物叫做「馬甲子」，民間單位向你們提出申請作為食品原料，這個案件從去年113年6月就送到你們那裡，可是就誠如署長所說，該案目前還在外部審查中，詢問你們業務單位後，給本辦的回復是115年底才會完成。署長上任才短短3個月都覺得這樣的一個審查需要3年的時間確實是很扯，如果再加上公告的時間，那可能真的是天荒地久，大家總不希望署長一上任整個效率都變差了吧！對這個部分，我不知道署長您未來有什麼樣的方式可以來改善這樣的情形？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步報告，因為一直以來，這一塊都是委外的執行所謂的審查，至於審查的時間，其實……"],["陳委員瑩：只有一個單位在審查嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["陳委員瑩：你剛剛說的是？"],["姜署長至剛：是陽明交大的一個團隊來協助我們，那已經有很多很多年的歷史了。這件事情我看了之後，因為我本身是毒理背景出身的，對於相關的資訊跟訊息，我想它是可以積極加速的。"],["陳委員瑩：我想請教一下，過去幾年，這個單位一年大概審多少件？"],["姜署長至剛：我跟委員報告一下，他剛才有講出兩個項次，一個是問卷的時候，第二個是安全性評估，兩項加起來，一年是寫15個，所以KPI是寫15件而已。"],["陳委員瑩：近一兩年，他們收的案件大概是多少？"],["姜署長至剛：收的案件中，目前塞車的大概還有10件沒有完成，歷年來他們大概就是15件滿足KPI這樣的程度。"],["陳委員瑩：請問署長，你們會不會考慮再增加委外的團隊？是增加經費讓他們能夠趕上你們送件的速度？還是你要更換委外的團隊？你有什麼樣比較具體的作法去加速審查？因為現在案件多，這也是一個原因。"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步說明，我昨天跟我的member講，要他先拿一份來給我審，我看看我要審多久再回來告訴他，就我一個人藉著上班空檔的時間來審，看看需要多久時間，來決定說接下來要怎樣。我其實有一種承諾，就是我們上半年收到的下半年一定要結案，預計是今年年底希望能夠結案，假如沒有辦法達到結案，我們在中間另外委託不同的團隊，俾能快速的把目前累積的案子完成，我想這是我努力的方向。"],["陳委員瑩：我想署長已經有覺悟，這件事情你們就是要加快審查的速度。另外就是我們這樣子的個案，是否還要再等個3、4年？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，我剛才提到了，我會讓它變成通案，不會因為任何案就有特殊，我的想法是上半年接到的案下半年結束之前應該就要能夠完成審查。"],["陳委員瑩：它也不是上半年，而是去年6月送件的嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：對，有點久了，超出我的想像。"],["陳委員瑩：正常的話，如果按照你的期程，今年年初就要完成，現在已經年中了。"],["姜署長至剛：對，所以我個人對於這樣子的期程跟這樣的進度，其實有很多很多……對這個個案，我自己都頗有微詞，所以我自己來檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：對於這些塞車很久的，麻煩你們優先趕快加速處理，好嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：一定。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝！請回座。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來請部長跟口腔司司長。"],["主席：請部長還有張司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好！你們去年底有預告檳榔健康防制法，在你們預告之前，除了找相關專家學者討論之外，請問有沒有找業者來徵詢他們的意見？"],["邱部長泰源：當然有。"],["陳委員瑩：但是民間對於你們預告的版本還是有很多的意見，本席在這裡要提出幾項，請你們再認真檢討一下。第一項就是第五條要求所有販賣檳榔的業者都要做登記，請問主要目的是為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：請口腔司司長回答。"],["張司長雍敏：謝謝委員關心，對這個部分，我們有收到很多人反映說這樣的話執行上會有點困難，我們有收到大家的意見也召開很多會議，我們會朝讓民眾比較能夠接受的……"],["陳委員瑩：你這樣講，我也聽不出有什麼具體的執行上的困難，是什麼困難？"],["邱部長泰源：這個會處理。"],["陳委員瑩：我想點一下，就是把所有業者做統一管理的時候，難免會讓人家聯想到你們接下來就是要課稅。"],["張司長雍敏：不是，不會。"],["陳委員瑩：不會課稅？"],["張司長雍敏：不會。我們會……"],["陳委員瑩：再不然可能是宣導對象尋找困難，是嗎？還是你們想要找出所有對象，所以利用登記的方式就不會漏掉任何一家？"],["張司長雍敏：跟委員報告，其實這個是我們當初最原始、最原始的版本，後來經過大家不斷地討論，誠如剛剛部長所講，我們會處理，那我們會採循序漸進，以輔導來代替，我如果沒記錯，依照財政部所登記的稅籍資料，全臺灣的檳榔攤大概將近有8,000家，我們會優先從這些慢慢去輔導，因為至少我們已經有掌握了一些……"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想在這邊反映一個問題，對於宣導檳榔對人體的危害，這個我是百分之兩百贊成，剛剛你說不會課稅可能就還好一點，因為畢竟你們原先是訂營收8萬以上的業者要課稅。"],["張司長雍敏：那個不是我們訂的。"],["陳委員瑩：不是你們訂的？"],["張司長雍敏：那個是財稅單位訂的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為8萬是這樣啦！他的營收是營收，但是如果扣掉人力的成本，然後再加上比如水電等等，可能到最後他實際的月收其實不是很高，所以這樣的政策既然引起恐慌，那你們如果知道，要再檢討，那是很好的，就是再好好討論討論。","另外，第八條規定檳榔業者不得僱用未成年員工，我想要請教一下部長，你們這個規定的目的又是什麼？不得僱用未成年員工，我們勞動力應該年滿……"],["邱部長泰源：這個應該是保護兒少。"],["陳委員瑩：保護兒少。"],["張司長雍敏：對。"],["陳委員瑩：那你為什麼不放在兒少法？保護兒少，可是我們回頭去看另外一個，在菸害防制法裡面就沒有限制他們不能僱用未成年員工哦！賣檳榔就要保護兒少，賣菸就不用保護兒少，你的邏輯是什麼？部長，我在這裡大膽假設啦！你們這條規定就是不希望未成年的這些人去從事檳榔西施的工作，是這樣吧？"],["邱部長泰源：有這樣的意思。"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果是這樣的意思，就像我剛剛舉例嘛！因為你們要考慮到，我只是要提醒，你希望未成年者不要從事檳榔西施的工作，你把它放在檳榔健康危害防制法這邊來規範是不是有點怪怪的？因為菸害防制法實施到現在已經快30年了，有沒有要求超商不得僱用未成年員工？也沒有嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：超商可以僱用未成年的員工嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：其實勞動力的計算應該是15歲以上就可以去打工了吧？這個你們可能不太熟，我現在點出來，你們要去好好想一想。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員瑩：因為兒少是兒少，工作權是工作權，這個你們要分清楚，如果你要去規範……"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來研究一下，研議一下。"],["陳委員瑩：你們如果很在乎這個檳榔西施，那是不是一定要放在這個地方，你們要好好想一想，因為有工作權的問題。","來，我們看下一張圖，這兩家檳榔攤都在登徵人廣告，他們不只賣檳榔，也賣菸酒批發，所以刊登求職廣告的薪水待遇，時薪大概是190元，月薪比基本公司要好一點點，大概3萬出頭。如果按照第八條的規定，以後未滿18歲的年輕人就不可以在這些地方打工，對不對？它不是只有賣檳榔，它是菸酒一起賣，但是單賣菸酒卻可以18歲以下去打工，所以你們的邏輯是有問題的啦！這樣會影響到部分年輕人的工作權，我就在這邊提出，所以今天……"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來研議。"],["陳委員瑩：好好想一想你們規範的位置對不對。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在已經2點47分。","現在請楊委員曜，時間有限，自己要覺醒。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162066","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162066","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24009b9e34a2bbee64e795f59f7b69f6ae0eca21237c41e09287405cc7a6e4ec875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"14:19:24 - 14:34:27","影片長度":"00:15:03","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T14:19:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T14:34:27+08:00","duration":903,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.88534375,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.078468750000003,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.09534375,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.247218750000002,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.26409375,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.297843750000002,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.60159375,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.85409375,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.47846875,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.512218750000002,"end":25.782218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.44034375,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.457218750000003,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.75471875,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.41284375,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.95846875000001,"end":92.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.85284375,"end":118.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.23596875000001,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.85596875000002,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.55096875,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.12034375000002,"end":187.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.84971875000002,"end":191.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.54534375,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.13971875000001,"end":198.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.39659375000002,"end":200.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.48909375000002,"end":203.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.79659375,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.89721875,"end":211.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.22159375,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.06534375,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.94284375,"end":214.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":214.68096875,"end":224.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.94159375,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":244.85346875000002,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.66659375,"end":286.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.08284375,"end":289.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.48784375,"end":293.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.10346875,"end":294.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":294.41534375000003,"end":294.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.91721875,"end":304.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.81034375,"end":321.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.83721875000003,"end":335.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.60721875,"end":380.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.79846875000004,"end":385.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.79784375,"end":386.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.85659375,"end":389.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":390.67034375000003,"end":419.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":420.03284375000004,"end":420.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.04971875,"end":429.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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謝謝委員的指導我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度也是這一次我們市部長我問的是說你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎"},{"start":215.054,"end":234.77,"text":"跟委員報告 目前確實是還有若干的縣市還是有用居家保母的改善那我也想問 如果現在還有這樣做還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的像這次的兩個流線保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人竟然讓他去做收出養的安置那現在我不知道一般安置跟景安"},{"start":235.41,"end":262.079,"text":"是不是還是現在還是做任讓他們去安置在一個沒有經驗你也從來沒有仿似輔導他的狀況的一個保姆然後繼續安置嗎我們確實如同委員所詢問那以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的一個原則那我們來讓地方政府在選任居家保姆來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則"},{"start":262.859,"end":286.435,"text":"那這個部分的話在這一次的事件發生之後那我們有先做過一次的調整那在這個原則裡面本來就有要求這個計畫政府在選任這一類型的保姆的時候對於他在接小孩之前的訓練那或者他以往的經驗其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性那我先問一個比較簡單的新北市縣護苗計畫你有去監督他確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保姆嗎"},{"start":289.56,"end":294.219,"text":"後面的計畫因為是地方政府他自己對 可是他們就在做警案跟一般安置啊"},{"start":296.751,"end":320.608,"text":"所以當把它放在那個強度不是很強在被管理的保母的時候因為為什麼不需要強度很強因為孩子爸媽送到保母家晚上會接回去他會確定他孩子有沒有被不當對待所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們去盡速去做處理確定現在目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有"},{"start":322.329,"end":345.025,"text":"討論完畢然後能夠三讀通過之前其實你們還是要密切注意這些孩子還在保母手上那這些孩子安全嗎這也是我們擔憂的那當然未來我們還是期待你們是不是針對於保母如果要去做安置你們既然不走寄養這一塊那要走在安置在保母家的話可不可以應該要去思考"},{"start":345.585,"end":348.369,"text":"怎麼去分級所以想問部長這邊這樣子是不是可以中央訂一套在這裡邊你的法裡邊我們去納入針對保護安置的專門辦法不要告訴我原則"},{"start":360.342,"end":388.744,"text":"那過去就是原則 結果有人要按照這個原則做嗎沒有按照這個原則做啊 雙北部按照這個原則做啊像凱凱案 而都也沒按照這個原則做啊那所以我想問說進一步去做分級照顧才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益 未來也避免憾事發生所以請問一下部長支持這樣子的一個方向嗎我想訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧可是你們的版本沒有欸那個你是有辦法那個嗎"},{"start":391.02,"end":418.673,"text":"跟委員報告因為他這個大概未來都是在安置的過程裡面去選擇安置處所的一個安置的地點的一個選擇是不是在法制上面讓我們我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法未來在安置處所選擇的時候那對於如果他要去選擇使用居家保姆的部分他的一些要求跟規範我們在兒少法的那個修正草案的研修的時候我們把這個議題拿進去"},{"start":420.074,"end":429.894,"text":"所以這有兩個點第一個是未來法希望你們能夠去做分級第二個事實上是在這法還沒修過之前請你們確保各縣市現在在做警案一般安置跟受訴人安置的"},{"start":430.427,"end":453.59,"text":"保姆選擇到底有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導我們去了解那在居托中心我覺得目前我由民間單位去做可是常常你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠他訪視的時候常常事實上是被標罵被趕出來甚至進不去保姆家去訪視"},{"start":454.651,"end":469.31,"text":"甚至大廈管理委員會裡邊本來就有些規定在所以訪視員去訪視的時候這我去年也質詢過訪視員根本進不到保姆家你知道他超收可是也沒辦法因為管理員就把你擋在門外等到保姆把孩子"},{"start":470.251,"end":499.471,"text":"送走到其他的鄰居家之後你才得以進去家裡那當然不會抓到超收也不會抓到他有沒有一些不當的作為甚至有沒有事實上是收拖非他收拖的小孩所以我不知道就是說既然他的管理權力不足的話你為什麼要他負擔這麼重的責任當一旦有事情的時候全部都認為是拘托中心的責任可是問題你們給了他什麼權力他沒辦法執行你們的公權力可是你們卻又要他去執行公權力然後再來"},{"start":500.912,"end":515.303,"text":"監督他 檢查他 輔導他 更是評鑑他問題是他對包模一點都沒辦法甚至地方政府有的在講扣分 像台北市說要輔導扣分 扣分公文去了去了給縣市政府"},{"start":516.064,"end":544.668,"text":"結果縣市政府遲遲不回文甚至打電話給縣市政府的時候縣市政府就說不會去處理那到底這些管理保姆的人他到底能做什麼縣市政府都我是被你們縣市政府授權要去管理保姆可是當我認為保姆有問題的時候呢我要求要去祭典也是配合你們縣市政府說要祭典結果我甚至他有違反規定的時候我把公文行為到你縣市政府結果你縣市政府"},{"start":545.208,"end":568.347,"text":"就是不裁罰那大家對於居托中心的權利甚至他對保姆還有什麼樣的管轄權利保姆怎麼會相信他呢因為你根本就是沒有power的人啊不是嗎所以想問說那這由來一直由來已久我去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目那似乎現在目前還是存在到"},{"start":569.068,"end":584.357,"text":"至今都還是有人跟我反映說他們去問給縣市政府縣市政府不罰當然也說因為上面的高層不同意哇 那我們的所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰啊竟然不同意保姆要被罰"},{"start":585.257,"end":599.762,"text":"是不是有民意代表介入我不知道 那就知道議員如果再介入這件事情真的就是沒道理可是問題是你要讓拘托中心怎麼去做呢所以我不知道說到底部長對這樣子的拘托中心你又不給他管理權力卻又要他負全部的責任這合理嗎"},{"start":600.458,"end":621.875,"text":"我想有責任 既然要負責任就應該給他權利部長先問一個簡單的問題 當下管理條例裡邊到底管委會到底我能不能進去保姆家因為保姆說等我下來開門要等我下來接他 他還可以上去 一等就等半個小時那工作人員也真的不要工作了"},{"start":622.555,"end":647.123,"text":"那到底我們可不可以去十分鐘如果他不下來我就開單給他開單要報簽地方政府都同意地方政府也確實會讓他這個開單成功否則的話一切都事實上是做白虛公然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望做這個工作坦白講又不是薪水很高然後卻常常受到拒絕辱罵之後他怎麼做得下去呢"},{"start":648.368,"end":676.585,"text":"你是要保險嗎非常感謝葉勤委員對於這個事情對這個問題的關心誠如委員所指出確實在過去居托中心它在這邊的定位我覺得事實上確實有點微弱那我跟委員報告就是說我們在這一個新法裡面我們現在目前已經把它改成是委託了所以委託的話現在就是說它事實上在整個裁罰上它是有公權力的那現在裁罰的權還是要回到我們縣市政府那邊因為你要做行政處分這基本上還是公務員才有辦法但是現在就是說"},{"start":677.105,"end":695.17,"text":"在整個他在過去做這個相關的仿製的時候我們現在目前也已經採取那個委託的這一個真的可以授予他們非常高的公權率嗎因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托在講說他們進入到保姆家他不讓他開那個房間就不讓他開房間"},{"start":696.09,"end":719.514,"text":"可是他們硬闖之後還要接受到他們的申訴可是真的也硬闖裡面好幾個孩子在裡面都流滿頭大汗所以就到底那個公權力怎麼讓我們的拘托人員可以執行否則的話認真的拘托人員坦白講搞不好被申訴的比例事實上是最高的這部分我們現在我知道就是說我們現在必須要武裝我們這些人員讓他們有這一個"},{"start":723.115,"end":745.366,"text":"有實際的這個Power能夠來進行實際的執行我希望這次是不是可以在我們的法律裡面明文規定然後真的是要去幫否則民間團體來承接拘托中心的時候通常沒有權利可是當有問題的時候常常是以他們要負起更大的責任來講我覺得這不合理也不公平"},{"start":746.987,"end":761.288,"text":"這樣子你只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來接那另外一個就是我覺得這次把公共家園跟附住室的訂進去我覺得非常肯認不過我覺得政府也要去思考公共退居家園裡面的配套的條件裡面"},{"start":762.069,"end":781.373,"text":"未來如果相關對應的一些執法可能要去思考為什麼因為這個存在本來就很特別我們要小心的可是講的十個十二個小孩四個大人裡面有一個是主管的話事實上這人數配比甚至沒有要求出工這些都會是以後在第一年之後都是問題為什麼因為有勞動權的問題就是他們要休假那這些孩子又會變成誰照顧"},{"start":786.594,"end":801.487,"text":"所以我們希望未來這些管理上我就在法律上你們可能要針對這一塊還有不當對待這一塊也請我們的政府部門可能要去想一想也就是希望真的"},{"start":802.148,"end":822.276,"text":"按照這個不當對待你們現在是用審議會我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法從調查委員到認定委員然後讓他清楚的被調查然後呢最後有一個認定的時候認定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼因為過去不當對待通常用兒少全法49條裡面的第一項"},{"start":824.597,"end":836.973,"text":"總共15款裡面通常不會被認可那到現在我覺得這次我覺得修正我的版本事實上也是會是相對事實上比較清楚 當初我們就希望按照幼照法這一塊 所以我們希望"},{"start":837.372,"end":864.494,"text":"未來你的執法裡邊應該也在搭配相關執法的時候也要考慮把它考慮進去所以我們希望政府能不能把自己的責任明定清楚還有違規的樣態都能夠漸漸的建置起來這個我覺得是保護師應該也值物旁貸的工作為什麼因為多年以來49條就已經很久就現在不適用那如果要化為說以後不當對待樣態霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態應該也要很清楚"},{"start":866.738,"end":889.592,"text":"所以在立法上我未來大家希望能夠補強這四點也就是建立專業分級也就保姆要做分級去做不同強度的那要有另定辦法還有拘托中心要有一些權力賦予還有我們托育服機構也就是托育中心的那個設立跟管理要更明確還有0到2歲不當對待的處理以上在"},{"start":890.165,"end":899.13,"text":"麻煩我覺得部長這邊可能在你們現在送出來版本如果不夠的話可能要再做補或者是甚至你們要去想謝謝謝謝指教好好想以上的謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1919,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（14時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩我們的部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長，三年了，因為托育服務法在民間就已經討論兩年多，去年希望能夠端出來，結果我們沒有，所以今天就來談談這個兒托法，看是不是能夠補強0到2歲的托育安全制度。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員月琴：的確，我們為什麼在民間的時候期待，因為本來兒少權法母法裡面，對於居家托育只有五條在做管理，含罰則，托嬰中心只有四條。可是2到6歲切出去之後，在民國100年訂了幼照法，事實上就是完備的去管理2到6歲，反而托嬰中心只有四條。可是0到2歲的孩子又比2到6歲更年幼，更需要有一個很好的、完善的機構管理，甚至教保人員條例都還有第五十三條，所以我們很希望這個托育服務專法能夠趕快通過。","尤其政府還在催生的時候，我們就一直期待，希望就雙薪家庭的家長有一個服務，讓孩子能夠送出來。過去幾乎只有二比八，我們的0到2歲是二比八，八成是在家裡，兩成送出來給保母。可是後來有托嬰中心之後，現在也有消長，托嬰中心比例上越來越高，就是將近七比三，七成還是在家裡，三成已經送出來給保母跟托嬰中心帶。可是托嬰中心的量體越來越大，也因為這樣不當對待的問題越來越嚴重，也越來越多，如果不好好納管的話，就沒有辦法讓家長安心。","你要催生，當然要有一些服務好的品質，所以我們也希望這個法，除了能夠提升我們的法律位階以外，還有強化不當對待的處理，以及明訂居家托育的專章，還有我們可以管制居家托育人員的一些資格。在這邊就會看到我們的處理原則原本的位階非常的低，就任由地方緊急安置，所以想問部長，到底你有沒有掌握各縣市近來一般安置、緊安跟收出養安置在保母家的狀況？過去為什麼一直讓這樣子的狀態持續存在？像新北市現在有護苗計畫，有些縣市還是在做這種安置，那你有沒有掌握哪些縣市還是用這種方法來做安置？甚至過去有某個縣市還用幼兒園來安置孩子，根本就跟我們原來沒有任何法規時的作法一樣去做安置，那也使得原本強度不需要這麼強的照顧孩子的保母制度，因為這次剴剴案凸顯出這個問題很嚴重，但重點是一直以來都是這樣子，所以現在我想知道哪些縣市還在做這種安置。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指導，我想這個應該要有一個很完整的制度，也是這一次我們……"],["林委員月琴：部長，我問的是你知道哪些縣市還在這樣做嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請周代理署長說明。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前確實是還有若干縣市還是有用居家保母來做安置。"],["林委員月琴：如果現在還有這樣做，還是繼續讓他們找沒有經驗的，像這次的兩個劉姓保母都是完全從來沒有帶過小孩的人，竟然讓他們去做收出養的安置，我不知道現在一般安置跟緊安是不是還是繼續讓一個沒有經驗、你們也從來沒有訪視輔導的保母去安置嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：確實如同委員所詢問的，以往是用一個比較偏向行政指導性的原則，我們讓地方政府選任這個居家保母來做安置對象的時候有一個相關的原則，在這一次的事件發生之後，這個部分我們有先做過一次調整，在這個原則裡面本來就有要求地方政府在選任這一類型保母的時候，對於他在接小孩之前的訓練或者他以往的經驗，其實在這個原則裡面我們現在有一些基礎性的規範。"],["林委員月琴：那我先問一個比較簡單的，你有去監督新北市現在的護苗計畫，確定他們都用已經訪視輔導良好的保母嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：護苗計畫因為是地方政府自己……"],["林委員月琴：對，可是他們就在做緊安跟一般安置啊！所以當把他們放在管理強度不是很強的保母的時候，為什麼不需要強度很強？是因為孩子爸媽送到保母家，晚上會接回去，父母會確定他的孩子有沒有被不當對待，所以我覺得這部分也是要請你們儘速去做處理，目前我們的托育服務專法還沒有討論完畢，在能夠三讀通過之前，請你們還是要密切注意這些還在保母手上的孩子是否安全，這也是我們擔憂的。當然未來我們還是期待，你們既然不走寄養這一塊，還是要安置在保母家的話，你們是不是應該針對這部分思考怎麼去分級？所以想請問部長，是不是可以由中央在法裡邊訂定，納入一套針對保母安置的專門辦法？不要告訴我原則，因為過去就是原則，結果有人要按照這原則做嗎？沒有按照這原則做啊！雙北不按照這原則做，像剴剴案，也沒按照這個原則做啊！所以我想進一步去做分級照顧，才能夠同時保障到孩子跟保母的權益，避免未來再有憾事發生。所以請問部長，支持這樣的一個方向嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想另外訂個好辦法來進行分級的照顧……"],["林委員月琴：可是你們的版本沒有耶！"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，因為未來大概都是於安置過程中去選擇安置處所，是一個安置地點的選擇，在法制面，我們會建議是不是考慮可以從兒少法著手，未來在選擇安置處所的時候，如果要選擇使用居家保母，相關的一些要求跟規範，我們在研修兒少法修正草案的時候可以把這個議題納進去。"],["林委員月琴：所以這有兩個點，第一個是未來在法律面，希望你們能夠去做分級。第二個是在這個法還沒修過之前，請你們確保各縣市現在在做緊安、一般安置跟收出養安置保母的選擇到底是不是OK，有沒有強度更強的去做訪視輔導。"],["邱部長泰源：我們去瞭解。"],["林委員月琴：再來是有關居托中心的部分，目前是委由民間單位去做，可是你們給民間單位的權限也很不夠，當他們去訪視的時候，常常是被飆罵、被趕出來，甚至無法進入保母家訪視，且有些大廈管理委員會本來就有些規定在，這點我去年也質詢過，訪視員要去訪視的時候，根本進不到保母家，你明明知道他超收可是也沒辦法，因為管理員就把你擋在門外，等到保母把孩子送到其他鄰居家之後，你才得以進去家裡，那當然不會抓到超收，也抓不到他有沒有一些不當的作為，甚至他有沒有收托非他收托的小孩。我不知道的是既然它的管理權力不足，你們為什麼要它負擔這麼重的責任？一旦有事情的時候，全部都認為是居托中心的責任，問題是你們給了它什麼權力？它沒辦法執行你們的公權力，可是你們卻又要它去執行公權力，然後再來監督它、檢查它、輔導它更是評鑑它，問題是它對保母一點辦法都沒有。","有的地方政府在講扣分，像臺北市說要輔導扣分，扣分公文給了縣市政府，結果縣市政府遲遲不回文，打電話給縣市政府的時候，縣市政府甚至就說不會去處理，那這些管理保母的人到底能做什麼？要知道我（居托中心）是被縣市政府授權去管理保母的，當我認為保母有問題要求記點，也是配合你們縣市政府說的要記點，甚至在他有違反規定的時候，我行文給縣市政府，結果縣市政府就是不裁罰，那麼居托中心對保母還有什麼樣的管轄權力？保母怎麼會相信它呢？因為居托中心根本就沒有power，不是嗎？這種情況由來已久，我在去年4月24號就質詢過這個題目，但似乎迄今還是存在，到現在都還有人跟我反映說他們去文給縣市政府，縣市政府不罰，當然也說因為上面的高層不同意，請問我們所謂的地方政府的高層到底是誰？竟然不同意保母被罰！是不是有民意代表介入？我不知道，議員如果有介入這件事情，真的就是沒道理。可是問題是你要讓居托中心怎麼去做呢？所以我不知道到底部長的想法為何，對於這樣子的居托中心，你不給它管理權力卻又要它負全部的責任，這合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想既然要負責任，就應該給它權力。"],["林委員月琴：部長，先問個簡單的問題，依據大廈管理條例裡管委會的職權，到底我能不能進去保母家？因為保母說要等他下來開門接他才可以上去，一等就等半個小時，那工作也真的不要做了！到底我們可不可以只要遲了10分鐘他還不下來，我就開單給他？開這個單要報地方政府同意，且地方政府也確實會讓他開單成功，否則的話，事實上一切都是做虛工，然後讓訪視輔導員非常的無望。坦白講，這個工作又不是薪水很高，然後又常常受到拒絕、辱罵，之後他怎麼做得下去呢！"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心，誠如委員所指出，過去居托中心的定位，我覺得事實上確實有點微弱。我跟委員報告，在這個新法裡面，我們現在已經把它改成是委託了，委託的話，就是事實上它在整個裁罰上是有公權力的，但是裁罰的權還是要回到縣市政府那邊，因為基本上還是公務員才有辦法做行政處分，就是說我們現在已經將過去做的相關的訪視改採委託的方式。"],["林委員月琴：這樣真的可以授予他們非常高的公權力嗎？因為我在進來之前還曾經聽過居托講他們進入到保母家，他就是不讓他們開那個房間門，他們硬闖後還要受到保母他們的申訴，可是真的硬闖之後發現裡面確實有好幾個孩子，且都滿頭大汗。所以到底怎麼樣才能讓我們的居托人員可以執行那個公權力？否則的話，坦白講，認真的居托人員搞不好被申訴的比例是最高的。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯！我知道現在必須要武裝我們這些人員，讓他們有實際的power能夠來進行實際的執行。"],["林委員月琴：我希望這次可以在法律裡面明文規定，然後真的去提供幫助，否則民間團體來承接居托中心，通常沒有權力，可是當有問題的時候，又常常說他們要負起更大的責任，我覺得這不合理也不公平，這樣只會造成更多民間團體不會願意來承接。"],["呂次長建德：好的，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：另外一個就是這次把公共家園跟互助式的訂進去，我非常肯定，不過我覺得政府在研訂未來相關對應的一些子法時，也要去思考公共托育家園裡邊的配套條件，因為這個存在本來就很特別，我們要小型的，如果是12個小孩4個大人裡邊有1個是主管的話，事實上這個人數配比甚至沒有要求廚工這些人員，這些在第一年之後都會是問題。為什麼？因為有勞動權的問題，就是他們要休假，屆時這些孩子又會變成誰來照顧？所以我們希望未來關於這些管理，你們可能要在法律上針對這部分有所考量。還有就是不當對待這部分，我們的政府部門可能也要去想一想，對於這個不當對待，你們現在是用審議會的方式，我們本來是希望按照幼照法的方法，從調查委員到認定委員，讓他清楚的被調查，然後最後有一個認定，以確定這個不當對待的狀況是什麼。因為過去不當對待通常都依照兒少權法第四十九條第一項，總共15款裡面，通常不會被認可，我覺得這次的修正，我的版本事實上會是相對比較清楚的，當初我們就希望按照幼照法的這個部分，所以我們希望未來你們在搭配相關子法的時候，也要考慮把它納進去。我們希望政府能把自己的責任明定清楚，還有違規的樣態，都能夠漸漸的建置起來，我覺得這個應該是保護司責無旁貸的工作。因為多年以來，第四十九條施行已久，現在已經不適用，如果說以後不當對待樣態是霸凌的或者事實上是在體罰的樣態，應該要很清楚規定。","所以在立法上，我大概希望未來能夠補強以下四點，也就是建立專業分級，即保母要做分級，去做不同強度的，且需另訂辦法；還有就是要賦予居托中心有一些權力；再者是托育服務機構也就是托嬰中心的設立跟管理要更明確；最後是0到2歲不當對待的處理。部長這邊現在送出來的版本如果有所不足的話，可能要再做補充或再去思考。謝謝！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好好想！謝謝！","接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","請陳瑩委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b749d3bc43a4244ee795f59f7b69f6ae0eca21237c41e092ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"14:11:59 - 14:18:47","影片長度":"00:06:48","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T14:11:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T14:18:47+08:00","duration":408,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.61659375,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.87784375,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.446593750000002,"end":66.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.73784375000001,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.69034375000001,"end":78.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.92159375,"end":84.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.94596875,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.93409375,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.73409375000001,"end":124.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.55159375000001,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.42034375000001,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.34284375000001,"end":138.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.79409375,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.99659375000002,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.98284375,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.52659375000002,"end":153.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.17596875,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.39909375000002,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.36096875,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.84221875,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.93034375000002,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.60471875000002,"end":225.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.41346875000002,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.86471875,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.11909375000002,"end":246.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.13596875000002,"end":251.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.50221875000003,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.16846875000002,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.08784375000005,"end":342.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.34909375,"end":340.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.35721875,"end":356.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.29159375,"end":364.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.56034375,"end":367.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.86784375,"end":369.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.18409375000005,"end":374.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.82034375,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.14471875000004,"end":379.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.62971875000005,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.25221875,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.43721875,"end":407.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.96846875,"end":401.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.97659375,"end":402.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.12409375000004,"end":404.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.29659375,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.97159375,"end":407.81534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.68,"end":7.963,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長委員好"},{"start":13.456,"end":16.999,"text":"我想提出修法最主要的目的還是要讓家長們安心許多孩子就是被送到托嬰中心或者是保母家其實爸爸媽媽心裡難免都會忐忑不安就我的孩子到底安不安全被照顧得好不好然後如果真的不小心發生了什麼樣的一個問題這個真相能不能夠被釐清那我們就來看兩個案件"},{"start":36.997,"end":62.84,"text":"那高雄男子呢一個托育中心他在2025年的也就是今年的這個4月出現了爆出了這個8名的嬰幼童他遭到不當的對待那事後呢其實家長也才知道該機構就曾經被通報過但是呢相關的記錄其實沒有被揭露啊所以呢就變成說類似的狀況呢也同樣的出現在北投在去年的1月當中"},{"start":63.56,"end":84.291,"text":"雖然這個托嬰中心的被評鑒是假等但是呢他過往也有長期對孩子施暴而且隱瞞他不當的一個記錄那這時候其實家長就會開始擔心了就是如果這家的托嬰中心他以前到底有沒有出過事情或者是他曾經出過事情可是我居然是在"},{"start":85.091,"end":105.943,"text":"公開的一些資訊平台當中我查不到他過往的這樣子的一個狀況我怎麼能夠安心把小孩交到這裡呢那如果是發生了一段時間查不到或者是剛發生的事情其實家長也不知情那這個部分這個中間的資訊的漏接或資訊的一個gap我們怎麼樣去補足那第二個部分"},{"start":106.983,"end":122.541,"text":"就是關於這個托孕中心如果說他的負責人只要換一個名字他可能就可以再重新的開業那我們怎麼知道我們的孩子送過去的這個托孕中心有沒有曾經有過這樣子的一個歷史記錄這個部分我們怎麼樣來補足"},{"start":124.602,"end":137.708,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心那這個你提出來這個真的是很重要的事情那我們在這個立法的過程當中當然怎麼樣精準的來去來也不要"},{"start":139.341,"end":152.726,"text":"誤殺無辜啦 但是也不要藉口喪事這個怎麼樣去精準的一個處理是我們在追求法條裡面的一個很重要的目標那現在有這樣子的一個平台可以提供給家長來做一個查詢嗎"},{"start":155.868,"end":181.309,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們有要求縣市政府所有有依照兒少法去開出行政裁罰的案件都一律要通報到我們現在在社家署有一個CRC的資訊網會通報所有進來的案件裡面如果依照兒少法的規定他罰完是要公告被處分人的部分我們也都有統一的公告"},{"start":182.029,"end":207.345,"text":"統一的公告大概是什麼時候家長可能他們對這方面的資訊的宣導可能不足所以以往這個各縣市自己的裁罰他會在縣市政府自行來做公告所以家長有時候查都不見得也許查的地方不見得方便所以我們在去年的五月開始我們要地方政府所有的裁罰案件統一通報到我們的資訊網站"},{"start":209.346,"end":231.732,"text":"那依照這個法律的規定因為公佈姓名同樣也是一種裁罰的方式所以只要條文裡面有要公告姓名的部分我們也都統一公告在網站裡面那讓民眾可以來做一個全國性的一次性的解鎖我們現在所有的案件都有上去那在去年5月以前"},{"start":232.552,"end":250.854,"text":"各縣市曾經裁罰的案件我們也在要求各縣市政府把舊的案件一步一步的都把資料轉移到中央這邊來那我們希望能夠讓民眾能夠有一個一站式的檢索好那這個是這一部分那另外我想提到的就是很多在"},{"start":251.655,"end":267.037,"text":"所謂的監視器拍不到的地方或者是真的當孩子受害了之後家長想要去調所謂的監視器的記錄的時候通常都已經會來不及要不就是影片被格次化要不就是監視器其實放在死角"},{"start":267.438,"end":290.314,"text":"好像掛好看的所以為什麼我的這個版本是希望能夠從這個露營的保存的天數從30天拉到60天因為我們發現有很多的孩子如果他開始慢慢的會學習表達我們收到很多的家長的陳情他們是想擠牙膏式的一天說一點一天說一點等到家長真的發現問題的時候其實時間往往超過那30天了"},{"start":293.877,"end":320.249,"text":"就變成家長他想要去找真相的時候其實這個部分我們是沒有替他們找到這樣子的一個可以被保留然後可以被閱覽或者是可以去調查這些記錄的一個狀況那我想呢這個事件其實也是發生在這個台南一個虐嬰的一個案件那通常我們發現這些施虐的案件就像我剛剛講的要不就是監視器是拍到角落看不到的地方"},{"start":320.649,"end":339.021,"text":"那要不就是真的出了事之後我們知道畫面可能被格式化不見了或者是保留的天數已經正式消失了那這個部分我們怎麼樣來做防堵那是不是可以也支持我的版本就是我們從保留30天可以拉到60天這個部分能不能夠我想我們可以來討論到時候可以來討論"},{"start":342.423,"end":363.827,"text":"好那另外就是監視器如果壞掉的時候因為壞掉之後我們是不是希望他在24小時之內就要通報而不要拉長到48小時在24小時之內可能真的就要通報趕快先修好因為其實任何一分鐘都有可能是孩子正在冒冒著風險的對待這樣子的一個狀況這個理事有沒有什麼"},{"start":370.443,"end":372.485,"text":"這相關的部分我們會來仔細研議"},{"start":382.49,"end":401.394,"text":"這必須要綜合性各個角度來看看他的怎麼樣我們還是一切以照顧小孩為重要怎麼樣讓他們雙贏我們當然會希望這個托育的制度跟托育的政策這樣來討論托育的制度跟政策可以更加的進步因為讓孩子真的在平安"},{"start":402.035,"end":406.191,"text":"安全的一個環境這樣長大 其實是所有家長的一個心願好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1889,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（14時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長好。我想提出修法最主要的目的還是要讓家長們安心，許多孩子被送到托嬰中心或者保母家，其實爸爸媽媽心裡難免都會忐忑不安，我的孩子到底安不安全？被照顧得好不好？如果真的不小心發生了什麼問題，真相能不能夠被釐清？我們就來看兩個案件，高雄楠梓一個托育中心在2025年，也就是今年的4月，爆出8名的嬰幼童遭到不當的對待，事後家長才知道該機構就曾經被通報過，但是相關的紀錄其實沒有被揭露。","類似的狀況也同樣出現在北投，去年1月雖然這個托育中心被評鑑為甲等，但是他過往也有長期對孩子施暴，而且隱瞞他不當行為的紀錄。這時候其實家長就會開始擔心了，這些托育中心以前到底有沒有出過事情？或者是他曾經出過事情，可是我居然在公開的一些資訊平台當中，查不到他過往的狀況，我怎麼能夠安心把小孩交到這裡呢？如果是發生了一段時間查不到，或者是剛發生的事其實家長也不知情，那這個部分中間資訊的漏接或資訊的gap，我們怎麼樣去補足？","第二個部分，就是托育中心的負責人只要換一個名字，他可能就可以再重新開業，那我們怎麼知道我們的孩子送過去的托育中心，有沒有曾經有過不良的歷史紀錄？這個部分我們怎麼來補足？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，你提出來這個真的是很重要的事情，我們在立法的過程當中要怎麼樣精準，不要誤殺無辜，但是也不要借殼上市，怎麼去精準的處理是我們在追求法條裡面一個很重要的目標。"],["郭委員昱晴：現在有這樣子的一個平台，可以提供給家長來做查詢嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們請周代理署長來說明。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前第一，我們有要求縣市政府，所有依照兒少法開出行政裁罰的案件，現在都一律要通報到社家署的CRC資訊網。在所有進來的案件裡面，如果依照兒少法的規定，它罰完是要公告被處分人的部分，我們也都有統一的公告。"],["郭委員昱晴：統一的公告大概是什麼時候？家長們這方面的資訊宣導可能不足。"],["周代理署長道君：以往各縣市自己的裁罰，它會在縣市政府自行來做公告，所以家長有時候查，也許查的地方不見得方便。所以我們在去年的5月開始，我們要地方政府所有的裁罰案件統一通報到我們的資訊網站，依照這個法律的規定，因為公布姓名同樣也是一種裁罰的方式。所以只要條文裡面有要公告姓名的部分，我們也都統一公告在網站裡面，讓民眾可以來做全國性、一次性的檢索。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們多久會盤點一次？"],["周代理署長道君：我們現在所有的案件都有放上去，另外在去年5月以前各縣市曾經裁罰的案件，我們也在要求各縣市政府，把舊的案件一步步的將資料轉移到中央這邊，我們希望能夠讓民眾有一站式的檢索。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這個是一部分。另外我想提到，很多監視器拍不到的地方，或者是真的當孩子受害了之後，家長想要去調所謂的監視器紀錄，通常都已經來不及，不是影片被格式化，就是監視器放在死角，好像掛好看的。所以為什麼我的這個版本，希望能夠將錄影的保存天數從30天拉到60天，因為我們發現，有很多的孩子，如果他開始慢慢的會學習表達，我們收到很多家長的陳情，他們其實是像擠牙膏式的一天說一點、一天說一點，等到家長真的發現問題的時候，時間往往都超過30天。變成家長想要去找真相的時候，這個部分我們沒有替他們找到一個可以被保留、被閱覽，或者去調查這些紀錄的狀況。","這種情形其實也發生在臺南的一起虐嬰案件中，通常我們發現這些施虐的案件，就像我剛剛講的，不是監視器拍到角落看不到的地方，就是真的出了事之後畫面可能被格式化不見了，或者是保留天數太短已經消失了，這個部分我們怎麼樣來做防堵？是不是可以支持我的版本，就是從保留30天拉到60天這個部分？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們可以來討論，到時候可以來討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外就是監視器如果壞掉的時候，我們是不是希望他在24小時之內就要通報，而不要拉長到48小時？在24小時之內可能真的就要通報，趕快先修好，因為任何一分鐘，都有可能是孩子正在冒著風險被這樣對待。"],["邱部長泰源：這個呂次有沒有什麼意見？"],["呂次長建德：相關的部分我們會來仔細研議。"],["邱部長泰源：這必須要綜合性從各個角度來看，我們還是一切以照顧小孩為重，那怎麼樣讓他們雙贏，從實務上可以做到的來討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們當然會希望這個托育的制度跟政策可以更加的進步啦！因為讓孩子真的在平安、安全的環境長大，是所有家長的心願。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，我們一定往這個方向來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，郭委員再度提醒衛福部，你們到底是要上傳雲端？要定時上傳？還是要即時串流？還是你要有一個官方的備份？然後是要從30天延長到60天？最主要還是保全證據啦！所以還請你們多多展現智慧，看怎麼處理。","請吳沛憶委員，吳沛憶委員、吳沛憶委員不在。","請廖偉翔委員，廖偉翔委員、廖偉翔委員不在。","請林德福委員，林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","林月琴委員有請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162060","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162060","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f247dae2eaca7073fdae795f59f7b69f6ae0eca21237c41e0923b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"14:02:44 - 14:11:48","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T14:02:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T14:11:48+08:00","duration":544,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.4822187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":14.172218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.492843750000002,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.04909375,"end":19.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.74096875,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.141593750000002,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.44096875,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.60096875,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.47596875,"end":43.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.53471875,"end":55.127843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.431593750000005,"end":68.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.25221875,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.28721875000001,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.50159375000001,"end":95.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.49284375,"end":97.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.61909375,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.27471875,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.42221875000001,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.26159375,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.70846875000001,"end":119.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.94784375,"end":127.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.52846875,"end":141.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.78096875,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.15721875,"end":164.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.11471875,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.90721875,"end":175.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.63221875000002,"end":176.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.64034375,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.96034375000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.71534375000002,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.73221875000002,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.81221875,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.66846875000002,"end":188.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.96346875,"end":189.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.53721875000002,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.27096875,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.22346875000002,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.30346875,"end":230.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.99909375000001,"end":232.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.47971875000002,"end":235.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.21346875,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.74846875000003,"end":241.76534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.76534375000003,"end":241.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.91721875000002,"end":241.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.22096875000003,"end":244.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.49471875,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.35534375,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.02159375000002,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.57846875,"end":251.48534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.82284375,"end":256.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.82221875000002,"end":259.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.40409375,"end":270.35159375},{"speaker":"S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有請部長來 請部長"},{"start":19.096,"end":39.222,"text":"委員好 部長好 我們很高興就是院版也出來了很多的立委也一同的來關心響應關於兒童托育法從過去的辦法 現在我們終於要有一部兒童托育法那其中就是一定會有一個所謂的服務諮詢會"},{"start":41.523,"end":54.358,"text":"那我看到院版就是沒有關注到原住民相關的這一些代表那我個人或者是有一些民間團體有注意到這個問題因為"},{"start":56.58,"end":79.537,"text":"當我們在講所謂的托育方式的時候其實不同的族群 特別是原住民族群它有別於一般的托育方式所以如果部長您有機會去看原鄉有一個原住民地區的互助教保中心部落互助教保中心 非常的特別"},{"start":80.157,"end":92.346,"text":"跟一般的幼兒園其實辦理的方式非常的不一樣那也希望部長有機會我可以帶您去看一看所以這個部分我就是想要請教一下院長您的意見"},{"start":93.587,"end":112.979,"text":"如果說我們有這個托育服務諮詢會那諮詢會當中會有涉及到原住民相關的議題是不是應該邀請具備原住民兒童權益倡議的經驗或者從事原住民兒童托育服務團體的代表是不是應該要有"},{"start":114.589,"end":141.163,"text":"應該要考慮那希望到時候院門可以支持好不好那另外請教一下因為我們現在很關心的就是0到2歲的托育服務整部法裡面就是我們很高興特別是這一塊是很多很多的家長非常非常期待的特別是原住民族地區那麼他因為場地很不容易找到"},{"start":141.923,"end":157.889,"text":"所以如果這部法通過之後 也很頭痛到底要在哪個地方找到這樣的場地那我知道 魏福珀你們有一個原住民兒童0到2歲托育服務事辦計畫實施期程113 5月1號到115年12月31請教一下 目前有幾間事辦"},{"start":166.341,"end":167.502,"text":"圓住民地區有21所確定"},{"start":185.281,"end":199.63,"text":"我再確認一下好不好 我要確認一下數字我拿到的數據是一所一個原住民那個咧對 一個原住民兒童0到20歲托育服務事辦計畫那沒有關係 我要講的是說為什麼"},{"start":200.831,"end":228.53,"text":"就是這個事辦計畫出來照理說是我們關心了很久大家引頸期盼但是推動的成效就是參與的監訴好像並不是那麼樂觀那到底原因在哪裡我覺得這個部分要去討論一下包括經費是不是已經有下放麻煩部長也關心瞭解一下我們馬上去瞭解那我接續就是要問那請問一下部長"},{"start":231.071,"end":238.017,"text":"你覺得如果部落家長他有臨時托育的需求你覺得可以送到哪裡去送到哪裡去"},{"start":246.577,"end":270.218,"text":"部長 好 我就直接講沒有啦 沒有地方可以送現在就是看看隔壁鄰居有沒有人在家啦那部落協力站好像在屏東友誼所嘛對不對是啊 沒關係那個後面再來跟我報告好不好我現在要講的就是說部落如果有臨時托育的需求其實大概就是只能看看隔壁有沒有人在家啦"},{"start":270.979,"end":285.234,"text":"可是我們看一下都會地區我光舉台北新北你看羅列洋洋灑灑什麼都有什麼居家托育服務中心育兒友善"},{"start":286.875,"end":298.82,"text":"園啊或者是居家托育服務中心等等甚至是也有提供公立服務的親子館居家托育服務中心很多那如果我們來看一些縣市以屏東台東花蓮來看一下邊疆"},{"start":305.134,"end":326.686,"text":"根據社家署提供的這個委辦的通訊錄屏東台東花蓮就各只有一個據點在大仁科技大學國立台東大學在台東縣好市日常教育基金會所以是真的很不足那現在我們看一下社家署的托育媒合平台"},{"start":327.586,"end":352.751,"text":"我們去搜尋也是一樣花蓮搜尋到一筆資料屏東呢搜尋到一筆資料都是托嬰中心只有一家來做所以如果我剛剛問部長那件事就是部落如果有臨時托育的需求到底要送到哪裡想一句實在話啦還是我剛剛講的部落互助教保中心"},{"start":354.67,"end":378.493,"text":"那這個部落互助教保中心他目前有在做2到6那如果說在這樣的狀況之下也沒有好的一個可以使用的一個地點或者是適合的這些托育人力那看起來互助教保中心他如果能夠承接0到20歲的臨時托育其實是好的所以想要請教部長"},{"start":379.494,"end":391.261,"text":"我的版本有有一些民間團體版本提供的他們也都支持請問部長您支不支持如果以部落來講互助教保中心能不能承接0到2歲的臨時托育現在其實有在做"},{"start":397.799,"end":408.553,"text":"那個其實我們也知道在那個委員的支持之下我們在屏東現在已經有一個中心嘛現在就是說美元對那我們現在目前就是說我們是不是還是以現在目前的這個示範計畫為基礎我們趕快再來推廣好這樣好不好"},{"start":412.779,"end":421.565,"text":"因為這個確實會對於我們整個園鄉我想這個是我們整個文化的敏感度我想這個確實應該要用這個方式好 謝謝那既然如此我們未來有兒童托育法我們的法制要完備目前園民會有一個足語保母那這個足語保母呢其實是為了讓我們的這些嬰幼兒從小能夠接觸足語的環境那它有分喔一個是"},{"start":443.579,"end":463.148,"text":"親屬的保姆他只要具備足語能力因為是自己的親屬另外一個一般保姆呢他還是需要有托育人員的專業訓練的這些證照那重點來了原住民如果要辦理這種托育他的問題不是只有空間找不到"},{"start":463.948,"end":486.966,"text":"更重要的是他的人才培育人才也找不到那我們去看一下社家屬提供的這個資訊專機托育人員專業訓練課程如果我找台東0花蓮0屏東還有4班都是自費班那大仁科大有一班是平日的補助班大概就是這樣非常的缺乏啦"},{"start":487.706,"end":504.283,"text":"所以我們目前已經有很多的主語保母他很樂意投入但是他不見得可以來做這個參與這個托育因為他還沒有取得專業的證照可是他要去上課發現了也不容易找到可以上課訓練的地方所以我在這邊就是簡單跟部長衛福部訴求第一個就是希望支持"},{"start":508.767,"end":534.231,"text":"兒童托育諮詢會議如果有涉及到原住民族議題的時候希望一定要有原住民的代表能夠把它寫進法條裡面那第二個就是目前看起來互助教保中心是最適合承接0到2歲托育的那這個臨時托育的部分希望可以把它納入法條文字那第三個就是拜託可不可以多多的開設原住民托育人員專業訓練課程來因應未來法治化好不好 部長"},{"start":538.152,"end":541.236,"text":"好 我們要慢慢來努力好 謝謝謝謝副長好 謝謝好 謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1843,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（14時2分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。我們很高興院版也出來了，很多立委也一同來關心響應兒童托育法。從過去的辦法，現在我們終於要有一部兒童托育法，其中就是一定會有一個所謂的服務諮詢會。我看到院版沒有關注到原住民相關的這些代表，那我個人或是一些民間團體有注意到這個問題，因為當我們在講托育方式的時候，其實不同的族群，特別是原住民族群，有別於一般的托育方式。如果部長您有機會去看，原鄉有一個原住民地區的互助教保中心，部落互助教保中心，非常的特別，跟一般的幼兒園其實辦理的方式非常的不一樣。部長，也希望有機會我可以帶您去看一看。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個部分我想要請教一下您的意見，如果我們有托育服務諮詢會，那諮詢會當中會涉及原住民相關的議題，是不是應該邀請具備原住民兒童權益、倡議的經驗，或者從事原住民兒童托育服務團體的代表，是不是應該要有？"],["邱部長泰源：應該要考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，希望到時候院版可以支持好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：另外請教一下，因為我們現在很關心的就是0到2歲的托育服務，整部法裡面，我們很高興特別是這一塊，是很多家長非常期待的，特別是原住民族地區，因為場地很不容易找到，所以如果這部法通過之後也很頭痛，到底要在哪個地方找到這樣的場地？我知道衛福部有一個原住民兒童0到2歲托育服務試辦計畫，實施期程從113年5月1日到115年12月31日，請教一下目前有幾間試辦？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，詳細的數字我是不是會後再提供？如果我沒有記錯的話，我記得目前好像是21所。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有21所？"],["呂次長建德：對，如果我印象沒有記錯的話。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原住民地區有21所，確定？"],["呂次長建德：我再確認一下數字好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我拿到的數據是1所。"],["呂次長建德：啊？原住民的？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，原住民兒童0到2歲托育服務試辦計畫，1所。那沒有關係，我要講的是，為什麼這個試辦計畫出來，照理說是我們關心了很久，大家引頸企盼，但是推動的成效，就是參與的間數好像並不是那麼樂觀，到底原因在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：我們來瞭解。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我覺得這個部分要去討論一下，包括經費是不是已經有下放，麻煩部長也關心瞭解一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們馬上去瞭解。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我接續就是要問一下部長，你覺得如果部落家長有臨時托育的需求，可以送到哪裡去？"],["邱部長泰源：原住民這邊……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我就直接講，沒有啦！沒有地方可以送，現在就是看看隔壁鄰居有沒有人在家啦！"],["呂次長建德：那個部落協力站好像在屏東有1所。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！沒關係後面再來跟我報告好不好？我現在要講的是，部落如果有臨時托育的需求，其實大概就是只能看看隔壁有沒有人在家。可是我們看一下都會地區，我光舉臺北、新北，你看羅列洋洋灑灑的什麼都有，什麼居家托育服務中心、育兒友善園，甚至也有提供公立服務的親子館，有很多。如果我們來看一些縣市，以屏東、臺東、花蓮來看一下偏鄉，根據社家署提供委辦的通訊錄，屏東、臺東，花蓮就各只有一個據點，在大仁科技大學、國立臺東大學、臺東縣好事日常教育基金會，所以是真的很不足。","現在我們看一下社家署的托育媒合平台，我們去搜尋也是一樣，花蓮搜尋到1筆資料，屏東搜尋到1筆資料，都是托嬰中心，只有1家在做。所以我剛剛問部長部落如果有臨時托育的需求，到底要送到哪裡？講一句實在話啦！還是我剛剛講的部落互助教保中心。部落互助教保中心目前有在做2到6歲，如果說在這樣的狀況之下，也沒有一個好的可以使用的地點，或者是適合的托育人力，那看起來互助教保中心，如果能夠承接0到2歲的臨時托育，其實是好的。","所以想要請教部長，我的版本有，有一些民間團體版本提供的他們也都支持，請問部長您支不支持，如果以部落來講，互助教保中心能不能承接0到2歲的臨時托育？"],["邱部長泰源：現在其實有在做啦！"],["呂次長建德：我跟委員報告，我們也知道在委員的支持之下，屏東現在已經有一個中心……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，美園。"],["呂次長建德：對，那我們現在就是說，是不是還是以目前的示範計畫為基礎，我們趕快來再來推廣，這樣好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["呂次長建德：因為這個確實會對於整個原鄉，我想這個是我們的整個文化敏感度，確實應該要用這個方式，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒錯，謝謝。既然如此，我們未來有兒童托育法，我們的法制要完備，目前原民會有一個族語保母，這個族語保母其實是為了讓我們這些嬰幼兒從小能夠接觸族語的環境。這有區分，一個是親屬的保母，他只要具備族語能力，因為是自己的親屬，另外一個一般保母，還是需要有托育人員專業訓練的證照。那重點來了，原住民如果要辦理這種托育，問題不是只有空間找不到，更重要的是他的人才培育，人才也找不到。","我們看一下社家署提供的資訊專區，托育人員專業訓練課程，如果我找臺東，是零；花蓮，是零；屏東還有4班，都是自費班，大仁科大有1班是平日的補助班，大概就是這樣，非常的缺乏啦！所以我們目前已經有很多的族語保母，他很樂意投入，但是他不見得可以參與這個托育，因為他還沒有取得專業的證照，可是他要去上課，發現了也不容易找到可以上課、訓練的地方。","所以我在這邊就是簡單跟部長和衛福部訴求，第一、希望支持兒童托育諮詢會議，如果有涉及原住民族議題的時候，希望一定要有原住民的代表，能夠把他寫進法條裡面。第二、目前看起來，互助教保中心是最適合承接0到2歲托育的，這個臨時托育的部分，希望可以把他納入法條文字。第三、可不可以多多的開設原住民托育人員專業訓練課程，來因應未來法制化，好不好部長？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們慢慢來努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長。","請李坤城委員，李坤城委員、李坤城委員不在。","請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請郭昱晴委員來作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162057","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162057","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f243feb82024a3b6c95b893ac8d10b5d33d0eca21237c41e092eedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"13:55:14 - 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考試考高分其實我們應該是強化他的技能"},{"start":160.503,"end":179.892,"text":"這一個部分我們也希望我們能夠逐步來逆轉因為現在感覺還是以升學學歷至上這樣的文化在技職體系是非常不好的所以我們希望能夠提升學生的學用合一以及職涯發展率以上這兩個部分是不是可以簡單的"},{"start":180.472,"end":194.348,"text":"感謝我也關心計時教育的人才培益確實我們我上任以後也一直責成這個國教署跟這一個計時師怎麼樣讓我們技高的學生真正能夠學到一技專長而且能夠為產業所用"},{"start":195.529,"end":203.399,"text":"包含這個證照所以你們做了些什麼就是要改善這種現況你們有什麼樣的策略呢我想這個部分我們當然也會透過一個跨部會比如說簡單來講我們現在目前的一個計時證照是來自於勞動部來這個規劃嘛"},{"start":212.751,"end":237.366,"text":"但是我想我們人才包括產業裡邊所需要的人才怎麼樣讓剛才委員所說的這個學用減少它的落差而且能夠真正反映出這個它的能力本位而不是只是在這個包含升學的一個方式那本席請教有沒有把這種即職就業導向你設立一個指標納入即職院校的評鑑現在有沒有這樣"},{"start":239.09,"end":245.252,"text":"因為我們的技職學生我們就是要讓他整個可以順利進入職場當然也許還可以更好簡單來講我們在技職這個校園的一些評鑑就是說看學生畢業以後他從事的相關領域的這個工作他的一個就業力到底是怎樣這事實上是有納進來的"},{"start":260.898,"end":275.87,"text":"那當然如果委員覺得還可以更細緻也歡迎委員隨時讓我們知道看怎麼樣能夠在整個課程設計包括人才培育上能夠有一個更好的一些模式我們一起來努力那最後還有一個點就是"},{"start":276.83,"end":290.466,"text":"我們現在這個整個技職教育的師資斷層還有產學鍛煉這個問題也很大我們全台灣技專院校具備五年以上的實務經驗的專任教師比例"},{"start":292.249,"end":316.405,"text":"遠遠低於OECD的平均值所以本席也了解因為很多的技職教師他很多都是學術出身比較缺乏產業經歷產業的一些專家所謂的業師可能會因為他兼課的一些限制或者是他們對於待遇的部分也許太低拒絕授課"},{"start":317.185,"end":346.545,"text":"所以这一块我们要为我们的学子打造一个要有更好的这种师资给他们然后加上我们的制度可以协助他们能够顺利的进入职场甚至这种产学合作我们应该要朝这个方向所以有关强化这种业师进入学校能够提高终点还或者他的交通补助那甚至呢技职教师的升等机制你们看看可不可以增设产业贡献指标"},{"start":348.106,"end":356.296,"text":"讓業界的實務合作成果然後不管是他的專利研發技術整個的轉移納入整個的考評可以嗎"},{"start":358.3,"end":376.021,"text":"根文報告我們目前確實都是現況也就是這樣在做那當然我們怎麼樣因為隨著科技產業那你剛剛我本席講的你這種有業界實務經驗的專任教師比例這個太少"},{"start":377.611,"end":404.814,"text":"因為這因為我們跟我們報告確實我們科技產業委員也本身是科技人嘛我們看到許多的這些科技產業確實把STEM的這些的這個專業人才就大量吸引那我們現在除了現有的這些技高或者技專校院的這些老師他六年他必須要自己有這個產業的這個半年的一個經驗我們同時也希望特別在技高裡面我們也看到了一些"},{"start":405.875,"end":425.127,"text":"科技產業的人才他們怎麼樣來協助我們這些技高或者技專校院的這些教學的一些投入可是這些產業他們就一直的會反應說我們的技職教育熄火了技職教育熄火 百工百業就熄火所以我們包含師師的培育包括這樣的一個業師怎麼樣進入到學校變成一個正式的老師我們事實上包含這一個"},{"start":434.813,"end":448.074,"text":"實施培藝藝術師也都做了一些更彈性的一些人才研覽上的規範那今天本席提的這三大方面是不是可以請我們"},{"start":449.232,"end":464.877,"text":"委員所看到的問題確實也是我們現在一直在積極要努力來改善包含在施施包含產學的這些落差裡面能夠怎麼樣去培養包括證照能不能夠培養出的人才剛好能夠讓產業能夠使用不是只是一張紙在那裡"},{"start":470.919,"end":489.799,"text":"因為確實它是真的是有一些落差所以我也跟我們同仁這麼講一個季高生他今天拿了十張二十張的證照但是如果不能為產業所用看起來這個證照它事實上我們就認真的就是幾張紙在那裡因為早期他"},{"start":490.76,"end":511.799,"text":"有證照以及證照的時候大概早期的證照還沒有畢業很多的公司都已經先畢業了他們是真正有一技之長就是說那時候的證照跟這個產業它是能夠銜接的所以我想所以現在這種現況我們加油好不好我們確實是加速來努力謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":517.329,"end":527.81,"text":"好 谢谢徐欣颖委员质询官员请回座我们接下来有请何欣纯委员质询何欣纯委员何欣纯委员不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1179,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（13時55分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請部長備詢。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好，本席今天想用一點點時間跟你討論現在臺灣的技職教育，技職教育有所謂的證照制度，我想您了解，證照制度可以是技能能力的檢定，但是它不應該過度依賴，現在一張證照並沒辦法代表我們這些學子的實作能力，也沒有辦法對接瞬息萬變的產業需求，你認同嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，我們當然要看它的歷史脈絡，過去我們的證照是臺灣，比較多是傳統產業、很多產業裡面，確實反應了他的工作能力跟他所需要的專業知能。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你剛剛一直講過去，所以我們以現在來看的話呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：現在因為產業隨著科技的快速發展，確實會有一些落差。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們應該要趕快調整我們的政策，現在我們看到教育部的統計，全臺高職生持有證照的數量有2.3萬張，但是眾所周知，很多技職畢業生在職場上沒辦法發揮他的所長，反應出證照和實務的巨大落差，所以是不是可以來調整？我們可以來推動證照品質指標的分級制度，我們讓學子可以針對他未來的就業有對接的能力，也有一個明確的學習方向，也就是說，我們學子所學的跟產業的實用性應該要有一個對接關係。第二個，我們現在的技職體系感覺上被升學主義滲透，我們都很了解我們技職體系培養出來，我們應該是要幫助他打造職場的通道，而不是幫他鋪地毯上大學吧！你認同吧！所以我們不應該讓整個技職教育變成教孩子考試考高分，其實我們應該是強化他的技能，所以這部分也希望能夠逐步逆轉，因為現在感覺還是以升學為主，學歷至上的文化在技職體系是非常不好的，所以我們希望能夠提升學生的學用合一以及職涯發展率，以上這兩個部分是不是可以簡單回復？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心技職教育的人才培育，我上任以後也一直責成國教署和技職司怎樣讓我們技高的學生真正能夠學到一技專長，而且能夠為產業所用。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們做了些什麼？要改善這種現況，你們有什麼樣的策略？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當然也會透過跨部會，簡單來講，我們目前的技職證照是來自於勞動部規劃，但是包括產業所需要的人才，怎樣讓剛才委員所說的減少學用落差，而且能夠真正反應出他的能力本位，而不是只是……包含升學的方式……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想請教，現在有沒有把技職就業導向設立一個指標，納入技職院校的評鑑？因為我們的技職學生就是要讓他順利進入職場。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員所關心的跟我們目前所做的是一致的，當然也許還可以更好，簡單來講，我們在技職校院的一些評鑑，包含看學生畢業以後從事相關領域工作的就業率，這是有納進來的，當然，如果委員覺得還可以精進，也歡迎委員隨時讓我們知道，看怎樣能在整個課程設計，包括人才培育上面有更好的模式出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們一起來努力。最後還有一個點，現在整個技職教育的師資斷層和產學斷鏈這問題也很大，全臺灣技專院校具備5年以上實務經驗的專任教師比率遠遠低於OECD的平均值，本席也了解因為很多的技職教師都是學術出身，比較缺乏產業經歷，產業的一些專家（業師）可能會因為他兼課的一些限制或待遇太低而拒絕授課，這塊我們要為學子打造一個更好的師資給他們，加上我們的制度協助他們順利進入職場，甚至各種產學合作，我們應該要朝這個方向努力。所以有關強化業師進入學校，能夠提高鐘點費或交通補助，甚至技職教師的升等機制，你們看看能不能增設產業貢獻指標，讓業界的實務合作成果，不管是他的專利研發、技術的轉移納入考評，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前現況確實是這樣做，當然，我們如何隨著科技產業……"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛本席講的有業界實務經驗的專任教師比率太少了。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員本身也是科技人，我們看到許多科技產業確實吸引大量人才，我們現在除了現有的技高或技專校院老師6年必須要有產業半年的經驗，我們同時也希望在技高裡面看到一些科技產業的人才來協助技高或技專校院的教學投入。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是這些產業就一直反應我們的技職教育熄火，百工百業就熄火。"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我們包含師資培育、業師進入學校變成正式的老師，也都做了一些更彈性的人才延攬規範。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天本席提的這三大方面，是不是可以請我們……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，委員所看到的問題，確實也是我們現在一直積極努力要改善的，包含師資、包含產學落差、怎樣去培養、包括證照，讓培養出的人才能夠讓產業所用。"],["徐委員欣瑩：它要能實用，不只是一張紙在那裡。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，因為確實有一些落差，所以我也跟同仁講，一個技高生今天拿了10張、20張的證照，但是如果不能為產業所用，看起來這個證照……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是幾張紙在那裡。"],["鄭部長英耀：早期有乙級證照的時候，他還沒有畢業就有很多公司都已經先預定了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他們是真的有一技之長。"],["鄭部長英耀：那時候的證照跟產業是能夠銜接的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在要加油，加速來努力。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們確實朝這方向來努力，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","接下來請蘇清泉委員質詢，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員質詢，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","翁曉玲委員質詢，翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","謝龍介委員質詢，謝龍介委員，謝龍介委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員質詢，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","賴惠員委員質詢，賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","羅明才委員質詢，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","李柏毅委員質詢，李柏毅委員，李柏毅委員不在。","蔡易餘委員質詢，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天特別感謝教育部以及各教育部有關單位列席，因為今天有與各位相關的解凍案，也特別感謝高雄市政府派員來參與，也非常感謝各位的時間，委員以及部會官員都非常辛苦。","今天登記發言委員均已發言完畢，另有萬美玲委員、謝龍介委員、翁曉玲委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162055","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f249a56d6e54335fbfcb893ac8d10b5d33da2a5d391d24d3b60047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:44:21 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部長我想你這一個"},{"start":292.034,"end":301.682,"text":"這一個學歷的來源跟他頒發的學歷應該要精準這當然是教育部所規範的那我現在的問題就來了明明就出現了這麼嚴重的不實結果教育部上上下下沒有人要處理這件事跟我前舉的人說這位江教授似乎後台很硬從教育部到當初的國科會"},{"start":322.247,"end":345.917,"text":"沒有人敢處理我想跟我們報告不是這樣事後因為我有看到媒體的一個揭露他確實是在杜倫大學裡面Faculty of Social Science and Health那個是法學院嗎他不是法學院 是嘛他下面是有一個School of Law對啊 但問題是他是School of Law出來的嗎是嗎 不是啊"},{"start":348.271,"end":374.046,"text":"他是社會學系出來的啊這個基本的客觀事實我還要再複述嗎還要再幫他辯解嗎還是教育部部長今天要在立法院公開跟全國所有的學子如果從Faculty of Social Science and Health基本上他不能稱作法學院是 你講得很好嘛所以上面就登載不死啦現在大家包括一堆學者我覺得到一堆學者"},{"start":377.796,"end":382.202,"text":"跟我檢舉說我們的教育部沒有打算要處理這件事耶所以現在是怎麼樣政治後台印顏色對了連教育的基本立場都可以棄守是這樣嗎"},{"start":394.295,"end":406.591,"text":"跟委員報告陳儒剛才這一頁那個slide所秀出來的就確實我們如果針對教師資格相關的一些登載不實或者是相關的一個違規的事情我們確實會來查處啦這個案子有查處嗎"},{"start":409.515,"end":429.386,"text":"因為我們目前這個我剛才有跟您報告的這個案子原本是由世新大學授權治審的一個結果所以我們如果再會請學校來做確認就是說當初他提到的相關的一些那個學歷到底是怎麼樣的我就直接跟你講啦一路造假"},{"start":430.609,"end":454.662,"text":"一路造假到2021、2022被揭發了以後才趕快改中間有兩關喔我帶部長看一下這個這個齁剛剛在講的是助理教授級的嘛來看一下來來來來海大這個是副教授級的他敢掛副教授就是拿到教育部審定的證書了嘛對吧"},{"start":459.162,"end":483.943,"text":"跟委員報告這如果是兼任的我必須要這個是不是在確認因為學校有時候他是會學校自己給他聘書沒有關係你們回去清查我願意給你時間因為顯然這件事情發生的時候你也還沒有當部長那這位司長可能也還沒有上任我願意給你們時間這個案子回去查清楚那請司長注意一件事情"},{"start":485.345,"end":503.946,"text":"最讓我無法接受的是什麼教育部有沒有因人設施還為他改辦法我再說一次喔教育部有沒有因人設施還為他改辦法現在市長可能在搖頭嘛可能是因為你還沒有看到我下一張投影片我直接秀給你看"},{"start":507.357,"end":535.554,"text":"為了這個案子專科以上學校違反送審教師資格規定處理原則本來是怎麼規定的教師資格審查履歷表登載不實這就違反了結果到了2021年8月25號的時候教育部突然改法規突然改法規說這個教師資格審查履歷表上面的不實"},{"start":536.929,"end":562.995,"text":"包括身份資料 物善或其他類似的顯然錯誤後來就是用這個逃脫了先幫他改辦法最後再處理這個辦法部長 市長你們回去看全部都有為什麼這件事情會讓我瞠目結舌我們的教育部為了一個在履歷上面造假不實的人去改辦法我的老天啊"},{"start":564.332,"end":582.826,"text":"台灣的高教體系可以這樣搞喔2021年出來了以後先幫他改辦法再來開會這不是一人設施是什麼當初這個辦法怎麼改的誰主導的部長 師長回去查清楚可以嗎可以嗎可以可以 需要多久一個禮拜夠不夠好 我們一個禮拜一個禮拜之內"},{"start":593.021,"end":609.45,"text":"給我書面回覆我下一次會繼續追問這個問題那要不然的話按照你們心感的辦法事情大條了啊事情大條了啊以後我們再申請高教資格的時候教一步甩鍋啊那履歷表上面青菜蝦蝦的都沒關係啦有這種事喔一個禮拜喔 可以齁可以 好 謝謝"},{"start":619.639,"end":625.027,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員質詢那官員請回座這個真的是動搖國本這個亂寫說是誤寫或誤騰這個我想會有很多"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1141,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時44分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長備詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，我自己來自高教體系，我想對於一個學者，基本學術上面的integrity是高教教育的基本，否則的話，我們高教所有學術上面基本的要求，乃至於標準，全部都會崩毀。我為什麼特別講這件事情？老實講，我難以想像，我沒有拿到一個特定學校、特定專業的博士，我在我的履歷表上面造假，結果整個政府從上到下都在幫我掩護，我看得是瞠目結舌。我為什麼說我看得瞠目結舌？我一頁一頁帶部長看。賴清德任命駐英公使江雅綺，科技部已經認證學歷造假，當初科技部在學倫大會上面是怎麼推翻法律專業學門7位教授一致決，認定違反學術倫理？這個問題禮拜四科技部來的時候，我一定會問到底，當初這個學倫大會是怎麼開的，這是科技部要負責任的事項。但是可以確定的事情是個人資料表明顯學歷造假，現在你看的是科技部的，這部分禮拜四我一定要科技部好好說明，但我現在公開質疑這件事情以後，我接到的投訴是什麼？我接到的投訴是他不僅僅向科技部申請相關計畫的時候，在學歷表上做虛偽不實的登載，跟他取得特定教授任聘資格上面的資料也有記載，我剛前面都已經show完了，我不用一樣一樣帶你看，我相信你們高教司的人應該都已經準備好了，現在我不理解的事情是人家有跟教育部檢舉，檢舉還附證據，說他的學歷明顯登錄不實。我們看一下專科以上學校教師資格審定辦法第四十三條，教師資格審查履歷表，在履歷表上面有登載不實，教育部可以通過資格審定嗎？我明明沒有拿到那個博士，我在我的履歷表上面寫我有拿到那個博士，教育部還通過審定，這是怎麼回事？後來教育部怎麼處理這個檢舉的？"],["廖司長高賢：當初世新大學送審助理教授這一級用博士學位的時候，世新大學已經是所謂的自審學校，所以相關的一些……"],["黃委員國昌：教育部管不到？"],["廖司長高賢：不是教育部管不到，因為學校完成了相關他的專業領域還有博士學位……"],["黃委員國昌：我先直接問，這個案子有沒有人跟教育部檢舉？"],["廖司長高賢：我上任之後，目前還沒有收到。"],["黃委員國昌：回去清查。"],["廖司長高賢：是。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，教育部在審定有關於教師任用資格的時候，不管是助理教授還是副教授還是教授，那個教授證書都是教育部審定的吧！"],["鄭部長英耀：是，到最後……"],["黃委員國昌：當初我拿的中研院的聘書是我們中研院自己審定的，這個我知道，其他學校應該都是教育部審定的嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：到最後都是教育部來發證。"],["黃委員國昌：現在問題來了，履歷表上面學歷登載不實，還可以通過審定，這是怎麼回事？現在不是只有這個個案的問題，絕對不是只有個案的問題，因為這個案子一旦原則下去了以後，我跟部長報告，以後天下大亂，連基本的履歷表上面，我愛怎麼填就怎麼填，我有沒有取得哪一所大學的博士，我愛怎麼填就怎麼填，部長，可以這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個學歷的來源跟它頒發的時候應該要精準，這當然是教育部所規範的。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題就來了，明明就出現了這麼嚴重的不實，結果教育部上上下下沒有人要處理這件事，跟我檢舉的人說，這位江教授似乎後臺很硬，從教育部到當初的國科會，沒有人敢處理。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，不是這樣，事後我有看到媒體揭露，他確實是在杜倫大學裡面Faculty of Social Sciences and Health這個……"],["黃委員國昌：那個是法學院嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：它不是法學院，它下面是有一個school of law。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，但問題他是school of law出來的嗎？是嗎？不是啊！他是社會學系出來的啊！這個基本的客觀事實，我還要再複述嗎？還要再幫他辯解嗎？還是教育部部長今天要在立法院公開跟全國所有的學子……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，如果從Faculty of Social Sciences and Health，基本上不能稱作法學院。"],["黃委員國昌：是，你講得很好嘛！所以上面就登載不實啦！大家現在，包括我接到一堆學者跟我檢舉，說教育部沒有打算要處理這件事，現在是怎樣？政治後臺硬？顏色對了，連教育的基本立場都可以棄守，是這樣嗎？"],["廖司長高賢：誠如剛才所show出來的，我們如果針對教師資格相關的登載不實或者相關違規的事情，我們確實會來查處。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子有查處嗎？"],["廖司長高賢：我剛才有跟您報告，這個案子原本是由世新大學授權自審的一個結果，所以我們會請學校來確認當初他提報的相關學歷到底是怎樣的呈現方式。"],["黃委員國昌：我就直接跟你講，一路造假，到2021、2022年被揭發以後，才趕快改，中間有兩關，我帶部長看一下，剛才講的是助理教授級的，海大這個是副教授級的，他敢掛副教授就是拿到教育部的審定證書，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，如果是兼任的，我必須要再確認，因為學校有時候是自己給他聘書。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你們回去清查，我願意給你時間，因為顯然這件事情發生的時候，你也還沒有當部長，這位司長可能也還沒上任，我願意給你們時間，這個案子回去查清楚，請司長注意一件事情，最讓我無法接受的是什麼？教育部有沒有因人設事還為他改辦法？我再說一次，教育部有沒有因人設事還為他改辦法？現在司長可能在搖頭，可能是因為你還沒有看到我下一張投影片，我直接show給你看，為了這個案子，專科以上學校違反送審教師資格規定處理原則本來是怎麼規定的？教師資格審查履歷表登載不實這就違反相關規定，結果到了2021年8月25日的時候，教育部突然改法規，教師資格審查履歷表上面的不實不包括身分資料誤繕或其他類此的顯然錯誤，後來就是用這個規定逃脫的，先幫他改辦法，最後再處理。部長、司長你們回去看這個辦法，全部都有，為什麼這件事情會讓我瞠目結舌？我們的教育部為了一個在履歷上面造假不實的人去改辦法，我的老天啊！臺灣的高教體系可以這樣搞喔！2021年出來了以後，先幫他改辦法再來開會，這不是因人設事是什麼？當初這個辦法怎麼改的？誰主導的？部長、司長，回去查清楚，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？一個禮拜夠不夠？"],["廖司長高賢：好，我們一個禮拜查清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內給我書面回復，我下次會繼續追問這個問題，要不然的話，按照你們新改的辦法，事情大條了！以後我們在申請高教資格的時候，教育部甩鍋，履歷表上面隨便寫寫都沒關係，有這種事喔？一個禮拜回復，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員質詢，官員請回座，這真的是動搖國本，亂寫說是誤寫或誤謄，這會有很大的誤會，我想這件事大家一定會積極處理。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162053","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162053","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24c954c38d0d8c29c2b893ac8d10b5d33da2a5d391d24d3b6019d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:37:17 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六年級會不會那我這邊都已經事實上是這麼寬裂的狀態底下你都還沒辦法達到百分之百可是相較於歐"},{"start":104.871,"end":130.221,"text":"運輸安全協會他建議應該要含到最低的教學時數南韓也因為他實施了10小時的交通安全教育之後讓他們的死亡兒少的交通死亡少掉96%然後受傷減少了63%事實上是非常好的效果可是我們目前看到我不知道就想問部長說你曉得這些大概你現在能清楚的掌握到數據嗎"},{"start":133.117,"end":138.162,"text":"我們跟委員這邊之前一直有合作那委員也給我們協助五階段的課程但更重要的是在課綱到教科書這個布定課程這邊的體系就是能夠比較代表我們有沒有把握學校落實的情況"},{"start":155.637,"end":181.838,"text":"剛剛講的是課程教學第二個是老師的增能剛剛部長已經講第三個面向是我們可能在教科書有沒有真的編出來也很實際的跟國教院有合作一個獎勵計畫也是謝謝委員的指導最後一個是學校間對於有一些剛剛講的增能後像五階段課程能不能夠真正的實踐出來一年級中年級到高年級到高中"},{"start":182.398,"end":205.498,"text":"那這五個階段的課程能不能夠找有實驗的種子學校這也是委員協助知道只是這個的落實跟它的效數可能我們還要持續在努力我覺得希望你們這次交給我報告可不可以真實反映現況真的我們去看到問題點然後確實掌握數據然後逐步的去改善可能沒有辦法一次到位可是不能去年到現在我還是沒有看到你們真實樣態的顯現數據可是今天"},{"start":207.82,"end":236.952,"text":"現在給出來的數據還是一樣 比較是很大的就是都覺得做得很好 那我希望不能自我感覺得疲勞的交通事故死傷還是在佔比還是最高的那我請署長這邊可能要再去處理好 我們來看下一頁 問題二是我覺得校安通報統計分析報告裡面 結論建議喔總共超了七年 從一百零五年每一年我看那個報告 未來喔 未來的工作重點建議都相同"},{"start":238.916,"end":256.342,"text":"那以後是不是113年114年都不用看這報告了反正只要複製抄上複製貼上就好了嘛所以我覺得部長能不能了解一下究竟發生了什麼困難讓業務單位沒有辦法依據建議做出修正又或者是目前其實有開會討論因為我看不到就是複製貼上"},{"start":257.813,"end":286.229,"text":"跟委員報告因為過去都只有做全年度的分析那我們未來會做更細部的會按計做分析或針對他的發生交通事故的樣態市長是不是後邊提出來你們更細的如果你說這邊事實上不能完整表達你們意思可是問題是我只看你們的報告裡面我真的看到七年來都是這樣子那不太對啊那你真的要解決校安的問題應該要有具體的未來的工作重點然後再來看問題三就是說"},{"start":286.889,"end":301.201,"text":"到底我想知道我們的特教資源的供給部分因為依據特教法20條為了保障幼兒的一個學習權主管機關必要時事實上是要求家長配合建府"},{"start":302.122,"end":326.556,"text":"可是實務上我們很難看到這樣的狀況家長如果不去,苦了誰呢?苦了第一線的教保人員犧牲的權益又是誰呢?當然就是孩子因為要學住的那名孩子的學習權益跟同班的整班教學都會受到影響這看起來很小的問題,可是其實也是打擊第一線的現場人員的士氣沒有足夠的特教資源支持他們,只會越來越多人不願意留在"},{"start":327.476,"end":336.243,"text":"第一線所以我認為教育部應該提出具體的協助措施所以部長這部分是不是可以提出對應的辦法來做解決"},{"start":340.305,"end":360.887,"text":"跟委員說明,我想家長會不願意孩子受鑑定,應該還是有錯誤的觀念,認為會對孩子加大負面標籤。對,他們都覺得大計慢題,可是重點是今天整班的孩子都同時受害。是,所以我們將來應該針對家長。要不要再強度強一點,否則的話,有時候一個班上九個有特殊需求的孩子,你覺得老師怎麼帶得下去?"},{"start":360.947,"end":377.012,"text":"所以我想我們將來一定要跟家長多做說明讓他們清楚知道得到鑑定之後可以得到更多的特效資源協助最後我提出這三個希望你們對於交通安全教育我剛剛已經提了是不是應該要趕快給我相關的資料"},{"start":378.132,"end":398.046,"text":"不要又再像去年給的這些數據如果不正確的話通常沒有辦法應對後面的問題還有校安通報可不可以給我更詳細的不是你們現在複製貼上的這樣的一個報告還有特殊教育按照20特殊教育法20條裡面看怎麼去延伸可以更具體的來協助幼教的現場好 以上謝謝謝謝林月琴委員質詢 官員請回座接下來我們有請黃國昌委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1121,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時37分）主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請部長備詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長午安。今天處理的是教育部的預算，不過有幾個問題想跟部長討論，看看未來是否能有更好的改善方向。首先，我本來就一直很關心交通安全教育，過去也多次詢問相關部會推動的進度，所以想問部長，目前各級學校實施交通安全教育的狀況。這個我去年也質詢過，你現在有沒有掌握到整個狀態是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想交通安全這部分，我們目前也有分五個面向來實施交通安全教育，包括老師的增能研習、學生的分級教學，各年級階段也有一些不同的……"],["林委員月琴：所以學校老師都受教育了嗎？因為你過去是用種子教師。另外一個問題是學生都上課了嗎？我們看下一頁，事實上這是你們給的數據，我本來就不肯定這數據的真實性，你們自己說各級學校的交通安全教育實施率幾乎百分之九十幾。就我知道，你們是用校來看的確百分之九十幾，因為每一個學校只要一個年級實施，這我去年在質詢的時候也想問教育部，到底意欲何為？如果今天三年級才要上交通安全教育，那四年級的孩子會不會在交通上受到傷害呢？五年級會不會？六年級會不會？我這邊都已經是這麼寬列的狀態下，你都還沒辦法達到百分之百，可是相較於歐洲運輸安全協會建議應該要含到最低的教學時數。南韓也因為實施了10小時的交通安全教育之後，讓他們兒少的交通死亡少掉96%，受傷減少了63%，事實上有非常好的效果。我想問部長，你現在能清楚的掌握到數據嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我是不是能夠請彭署長？"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩彭署長。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。我們跟委員這邊之前一直有合作，委員協助我們五階段的課程，但更重要的是在課綱到教科書這個部定課程，這邊體系就是比較能夠代表我們有沒有把握學校落實的情況。剛剛講的是課程教學，第二個是剛剛部長講的老師的增能，第三個面向是我們在教科書有沒有真的編出來，很實際跟國教院有合作一個獎勵計畫，也謝謝委員的指導。最後一個是學校間對於剛才講的增能後，像五階段課程能不能真正實踐出來，低年級、中年級到高年級到高中，這五個階段的課程能不能找有實驗的種子學校，這也是需要委員協助指導，只是這個課程的落實跟校數，可能我們還要繼續努力。"],["林委員月琴：我希望你們這次交給我的報告能夠真實反應現況，我們看到問題點，確實掌握數據，然後逐步去改善，可能沒有辦法一次到位，但是從去年到現在，我還是沒有看到你們真實樣態的顯現數據，現在給出來的數據還是一樣，你們都覺得做得很好，我希望不能自我感覺良好，兒少的交通事故死傷占比還是最高的，我請署長還是要再去處理。","問題二，校安通報統計分析報告裡面結論建議總共抄了7年，從105年開始，我看到報告每一年的未來工作重點建議都相同，以後113年、114年是不是都不用看這個報告了？反正複製貼上就好了，部長能否了解一下究竟發生了什麼困難，讓業務單位沒有辦法依據建議做出修正，又或是目前其實有開會討論？因為我看不到修正，就是一樣的複製貼上。"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，因為過去都只有做全年度的分析，我們未來會做更細部的分析，按季做分析，針對發生交通事故的樣態提出檢討。"],["林委員月琴：是不是後面可以提出更細的報告？如果你說這邊不能完整表達你們的意思，可是我看你們的報告看到7年來都是這樣子，這不太對啊！你真正要解決校安的問題，應該要有具體未來的工作重點。","再來看問題三，我想知道我們的特教資源供給部分，因為依據特教法第二十條，為了保障幼兒的學習權，主管機關必要時要要求家長配合鑑定等，可是實務上我們很難看到這樣的狀況，家長如果不去，苦了誰？苦了第一線的教保人員，犧牲誰的權益？當然就是孩子，因為要協助的那名孩子的學習權益跟整班教學都會受到影響，這看起來是很小的問題，可是其實打擊了第一線的現場人員的士氣，沒有足夠的特教資源支持他們，只會越來越多人不願意留在第一線，所以我認為教育部應該提出具體的協助措施。部長，這部分是不是可以提出對應的辦法來解決？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員說明，我想家長不願意孩子受鑑定應該還是有錯誤的觀念，認為會對孩子貼上負面標籤。"],["林委員月琴：對，他們都覺得大隻雞慢啼，可是重點是今天整班孩子都同時受害，強度要不要再強一點？否則的話，有時候一個班上有9個特殊需求的孩子，你覺得老師怎麼帶得下去？"],["吳司長林輝：我們將來一定多跟家長說明，讓他們清楚知道得到鑑定之後可以得到更多的特教資源協助，幫助孩子有更好的發展。"],["林委員月琴：最後我提出這三個問題，希望你們對於交通安全教育，我剛才提的，是不是應該趕快給我相關資料？不要再像去年，如果給的數據不正確的話，通常沒辦法應對後面的問題。還有校安通報可不可以給我更詳細的報告？不是你們現在複製貼上的報告。還有，特殊教育按照特殊教育法第二十條，研商可以怎麼樣更具體來協助幼教的現場，以上謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162051","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162051","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24af5409fc0da5bb17b893ac8d10b5d33da2a5d391d24d3b60f0ff8c573899f8c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"13:27:29 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這個狼屍的個案啊一定是2014年10月時他就犯案了在2015年的3月27號新北市新北的地檢依照防害性自主起訴在2015年的時候判決就確定了喔確定依照教育部的這個法令規定這老師應該不能再教了吧他離開了學校竟然跑去補習班了"},{"start":57.659,"end":60.88,"text":"後來有人檢舉在2023年的7月12號補習班官網把他這個狼屍的這個資訊把他下架可是在去年2024年6月22號我們追蹤到他還在補習班待課國二的這個理化更嚴重的吹哨者來陳情說除了這個個案之外"},{"start":86.787,"end":114.043,"text":"還有其他的受害者部長你長久在教育界嘛不只是一個個案我們看下一張其實啦包括在高雄台南包括去年七月屏東中華台東跟桃園都出現過類似的有前科的狼屍在補習班出沒的這個新聞"},{"start":115.623,"end":130.711,"text":"所以我今天要先問一個最嚴肅的問題這種悲劇這種讓人家心痛的事情為什麼一再發生如果照補習跟進修教育法第九條第六項"},{"start":134.298,"end":134.678,"text":"我想這一個"},{"start":160.299,"end":177.633,"text":"陳副委員所關心的當然就是在整個那一個流程的監管過程確實有疏漏有疏漏我們今天很明確把它提出來然後要趕快補破你一定知道林立寒條款對不對我們台灣被認為是文壇的新星林立寒就黃思綺那個悲劇"},{"start":186.636,"end":210.726,"text":"在他離開這世界的一個月內我們立法院曾經做了一個很重要的修法教育部那時候也急著要做這件事 對不對那時候的內容來 看這個 博定你真的看立法院通過補習跟進修教育法第九條修正條文明定補習班的教職員工都必須要揭露他的真實姓名 對不對"},{"start":213.407,"end":229.238,"text":"等一下我會跟你講現在的這個郎師啊他就用化名變成一個大漏洞了第二個為了確保學生的安全補習班申請立案人或者人事異動的時候你還要附上教職員工的名冊"},{"start":230.509,"end":253.357,"text":"跟警察刑事記錄等證明文件讓地方主管機關要核准第三條也很重要條文裡面還明定喔補習班相關人員如果知道有性侵害性騷擾發生的時候要跟相關的機關通報杜傑不適任人員進入補教界我要問 保定教育部有貫徹這個條文嗎這個叫林毅涵條款"},{"start":259.557,"end":283.943,"text":"跟委員報告其實當時候補習經濟學法修正以後其實我們就有系統然後現在就要求就是說在申請要這個有關這些職員相關名冊的時候都要先經過縣市政府在24小時內要通報出來然後在中央這邊會經過三個工作天會跟法務部等等去做調查如果證實屬實就會上這個系統登錄那所有要應用的時候"},{"start":287.28,"end":303.368,"text":"那時候雷利風險去修了一個閥一個月內就修了一個閥結果漏洞百出我剛可以看的不是個案是通案這幾年來一直在出現林益海這個事情已經多久了2017年到現在結果每一段時間就被逼出來"},{"start":304.895,"end":328.796,"text":"教育部要正視這個問題要解決好不好來我進一步來我們我想我們來加強督導然後如果有這些補習班真的違反我們這些相關的一些規定我相信我們應該要跟地方責成要有一個更嚴厲的一個處分甚至不惜這個應該該吊銷這個執照的責任我想我們就朝那個方向來努力我定"},{"start":329.935,"end":350.657,"text":"吹哨者來陳情之後 我們去做了一部分的這個追查我現在跟你講 來 我可以看一下這個畫面我們是怎麼去查這個案子的連那個陳情人啊 他都提到了有人來檢舉說提供那個萃跟戴的上面那個手機的這個畫面他們在上面討論說有一個老師在這邊你看左邊這個畫"},{"start":353.144,"end":378.481,"text":"這個都是來催哨者提供之後有很多人陳情他就提到說這個老師還在補習班教書現在都還在喔然後媒體也開始去追這幾天連媒體昨天都報導了那張圖就是一個補習班因為我背那個人就是那個老師他教這幾個人還要去補習班你看這是多大的一個漏洞然後我進一步去追我從那個補習班的那個網站上面去看還可以看到他的"},{"start":382.455,"end":403.128,"text":"老師的這個資訊你看這麼明目張膽完全不符合我們這個規定甚至他去補習班帶課這影片都有2024年的6月23號都還在上課結果你說你修了法你要杜絕這個悲劇在發生啊悲劇就一直在產生啊我現在今天跟你講這個個案我去追每個畫面都有等一下我會把名字給你"},{"start":412.639,"end":419.074,"text":"把這個普及班給你 好不好那更重要的不是只有個個案它是一個通案 我剛才說的個案也有 中華也有 轉型也有"},{"start":424.209,"end":437.938,"text":"這一個案子委員所關心的事實上已經因為他到這個沒有立案的補習班去教然後經過這個吹哨子這個舉發那地方政府也已經立即集合然後勒令這個老師離開這個補習班"},{"start":443.892,"end":456.116,"text":"這一個地方政府也裁划了這一個補習班有25萬的這個罰款那我想我非常同意委員所提的我們怎麼樣去全面的去了解然後能夠杜絕這樣的一個他已經違法他本來就不應該當老師那我想這我們會積極來查跟地方處理中"},{"start":464.998,"end":488.177,"text":"現在進行是嘛對不對去把它處理好那整個處理過程你給我一個很明確的處理的這個報告好不好第二更重要它是一個通案嘛來所以我們明確來做幾件事情第一個由教育部發函給各個補習班你要落實林義海這個條款請他們前面清查到底老師裡面有沒有性侵害或者是性騷的這是條文裡面明定的嘛對不對"},{"start":490.083,"end":506.231,"text":"可以嗎 教育部發函給各部級班馬上做這件事情第二個裡面提到的就是要他的名冊要實名式嘛 對不對不允許他化名或者是假名要清查 好不好好 第三個還有一個大的問題其實啦 為什麼這次吹哨者會來檢舉"},{"start":508.032,"end":527.077,"text":"他們就是要幾發查不到資料 只好找立法委員啊我們現在有一個大的問題就是他們如果上去 點上去 這個補習班可以看到老師的名字 對不對可是另外他如果是不恰當 不當的這個老師 你要讓他可以查得到啊對不對 你有建立一個系統嘛 就是不當的這個老師嘛 對不對可是一般人上不去嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":528.629,"end":549.522,"text":"一般人上不去嘛只有教育體系看得到嘛那這樣就找不到人啊所以是不是要把這兩個系統要整合好不好要讓它公開透明這是你當初修法一個重點嘛把這兩個系統我剛剛講了把這兩個系統整合起來這樣一般人他如果受到不平的待遇或者他要出來要檢舉他可以上這個網就會查得到說這個老師是不恰當的好不好"},{"start":550.455,"end":568.948,"text":"我們現在馬上做這件事情 可以嗎好 謝謝我們不允許下一個悲劇再產生不要讓任何的狼屍在我們的補習班流竄好 謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員質詢 官員請回座我們接下來有請林月琴委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1094,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時27分）謝謝主席，請教育部部長。"],["主席：有請部長備詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天要來探討一個吹哨者陳情，臺灣教育界非常嚴重的問題，就是有性侵的狼師在各大補習班流竄，狼爪這個陰影籠罩全臺學子。我先給你看吹哨者陳情的內容，這個狼師的個案在2014年10月的時候就犯案了。2015年3月27號，新北市地檢依照妨害性自主起訴，在2015年判決確定。依照教育部的法令規定，這位老師應該不能再教了，但他離開學校後，竟然跑去補習班了。後來有人檢舉，在2023年7月12號，補習班官網把狼師的資訊下架，可是在去年2024年6月22號，我們追蹤他還在補習班代課，教國二的理化課。更嚴重的是吹哨者陳情說除了這個個案之外，還有其他的受害者。部長長久在教育界，現在不只是一個個案，其實包括在高雄、臺南，包括去年7月在屏東、彰化、臺東跟桃園都出現過類似的，有前科的狼師在補習班出沒的新聞。","我今天要先問一個最嚴肅的問題，這種悲劇，這種讓人心痛的事情為什麼一再發生？照補習及進修教育法第九條第六項的規定，如果經判決確定，而且是有性騷或是性侵犯的，這個教師本來就要解僱，包括補習班都不行聘用，對不對？為什麼這事情一再發生，教育部出了什麼問題？部長，這種悲劇為什麼一再產生呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：誠如委員所關心的，當然在整個流程的監管過程，確實有疏漏。"],["張委員啓楷：有疏漏嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：有疏漏。"],["張委員啓楷：我們今天很明確把它提出來，然後趕快補破網。部長一定知道林奕含條款，對不對？在臺灣被認為是文壇新星的林奕含，就是房思琪那個悲劇，在他離開世界的一個月內，我們立法院曾經做了一個很重要的修法，教育部那時候也急著要做這件事，那時候的內容，部長請仔細看，立法院通過補習及進修教育法第九條修正條文，明定補習班的教職員工都必須揭露他的真實姓名。這個狼師現在就用化名，這變成一個大漏洞了。第二個，為了確保學生的安全，補習班申請立案人或者人事異動的時候，還要附上教職員工的名冊跟警察刑事紀錄等證明文件，陳報地方主管機關核准。第三條也很重要，條文裡面還明定補習班相關人員如果知道有性侵害、性騷擾發生的時候，要跟相關機關通報，杜絕不適任的人員進入補教界。我要問部長，教育部有貫徹這個條文嗎？這個叫林奕含條款。"],["梁司長學政：跟委員報告，其實補習進修法修正以後我們就有系統，現在要求申請職員的相關名冊都要先經過縣市政府，在24小時內要通報，在中央這邊有三個工作天會跟法務部等等單位去做調查，如果證實屬實就會上這個系統登錄，那所有……"],["張委員啓楷：對，現在就是沒有落實嘛！對不對？那時候雷厲風行，一個月內就修了一個法，結果漏洞百出。我剛才給你看的不是個案而是通案，這幾年來一直在出現。林奕含這個事情已經多久了？從2017年到現在，結果每隔一段時間就有類似的事爆出來，教育部要正視這個問題，要解決，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我們來加強督導，如果有補習班真的違反相關規定，我們應該責成地方要有一個更嚴厲的處分，甚至該吊銷執照的時候，我們就朝那個方向來努力。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，吹哨者來陳情之後，我們去做了一部分的追查。我現在跟你講，給你看一下這個畫面，我們是怎麼去查這個案子的。連陳情人都提到了，有人來檢舉提供Threads跟LINE手機上的畫面，他們在上面討論說有一個老師在這邊……你看左邊這個畫面，這都是吹哨者提供的，之後有很多人陳情，提到這個老師還在補習班教書，現在都還在喔，然後媒體也開始去追，昨天媒體都報導了。那張圖就是那個補習班，右邊那個人就是那個老師，他到這幾天都還在補習班，你看這是多大的一個漏洞。我進一步去追查，我從那個補習班的網站上去看，還可以看到他擔任老師的資訊。你看這麼明目張膽，完全不遵守我們這個規定，甚至他去補習班代課，這個影片都看得到，2024年6月23號都還在上課。你說你修了法，你要杜絕悲劇再發生，結果悲劇就一直在產生啊！今天跟你講這個個案我去追，每個畫面都有，等一下我把名字給你、把這個補習班的資料給你，好不好？更重要的是，這不是只有一個個案，這是通案，就像我剛才說的，高雄也有、彰化也有、全省都有，不要讓悲劇再產生。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。跟委員報告，委員所關心的這個案子，事實上因為他去沒有立案的補習班教，經過吹哨者舉發，地方政府也已經立即稽核，勒令這位老師離開這個補習班，地方政府也裁罰這個補習班25萬元的罰款。我非常同意委員所提的，我們怎麼樣去全面了解，然後能夠杜絕這樣的情形，也就是他已經違法，本來就不應該當老師。我們會積極的查核，跟地方來合作。"],["張委員啓楷：這個個案處理中，現在進行式對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["張委員啓楷：去把它處理好，整個處理過程，你給我一個很明確的處理報告，好不好？","其次，更重要的它是一個通案，所以我們明確來做幾件事情，第一個，由教育部發函給各個補習班，你要落實林奕含這個條款，請他們全面清查，到底老師裡面有沒有性侵害或是性騷的，這是條文裡面明定的，對不對？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：教育部發函給各補習班，馬上做這件事情。第二個，裡面提到的，就是它的名冊要實名制對不對？不允許他化名或是假名，要清查，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第三個，還有一個大問題，為什麼吹哨者會來檢舉？他們就是要舉發，查不到資料只好找立法委員。我們現在有一個大問題，就是他們如果上網去點這個補習班，可以看到老師的名字，可是他如果是不當的老師，你應該讓他可以查得到啊！你有建立一個不當老師名冊的系統，可是一般人上不去這個系統查閱，只有教育體系看得到，這樣就找不到人啊！所以是不是應該把這兩個系統整合，好不好？要讓它公開透明，這是你當初修法的一個重點。我剛𠝾講了，把這兩個系統整合起來，讓一般人如果受到不平等待遇或者要出來檢舉，他可以上這個網頁就可以查得到這個老師是不是不恰當的老師，好不好？你們現在馬上做這件事情，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。部長，我們不允許下一個悲劇再產生，不要讓任何的狼師在補習班流竄，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f2473eaea8ee113b20ab893ac8d10b5d33da2a5d391d24d3b6050ce43fc02dd9c4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"13:12:36 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但我很快 我保證我很快好 那個有請教育部部長 謝謝鄭部長有請鄭部長被質詢 謝謝"},{"start":18.677,"end":47.8,"text":"好 部长好有一题其实非常困难这是普特融合因为普特融合政策推下去绝对是利益良善但是在现场的执行其实出现了很多状况我想我今天就一并跟部长回复我们陆陆续续都有收到一些新的澄清跟状况第一个是关于特教加给的部分之前我在上个月质询教育部的时候教育部说各个县市都已经同意特教加给然后国教署当时也说四月底会把调生案送往行政院我再次跟国教署确定一下"},{"start":48.14,"end":64.193,"text":"目前已經送了嗎送了太好了那行政院簽合的狀況是沒問題現在已經送到行政院好所以我們等行政院簽合那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤那目前你們認為有沒有機會今年可以完成調生"},{"start":66.667,"end":86.044,"text":"好啦我們一起期待我看部長答不出來我幫你答但我們一起期待我們也會持續我們一起拜託行政院支持好那接下來我要講的是可是可是在整個體制當中有一些人他也在做類似的工作但是他卻沒有相關的佳績我把相關情況跟部長還有署長說明"},{"start":87.125,"end":106.292,"text":"包含有一類是商界到教育局或者是特教資源中心的特教老師他們如果沒有授課的部分呢就不會有這個加級那可是如果他只有行政會有行政加級沒有特教加級的影響就還好第二類呢有一類老師他是專職新評老師他因為是專職新評所以他不會拿到"},{"start":106.832,"end":134.357,"text":"一份一千一百塊的撰稿費他只會有失策費跟交通費甚至我們現在來自現場的案例一個學年可能要做七十五案到八十五案而且常常是兩三天內要完成十幾案工作非常吃力不討好可是沒有相關佳績那因為試射到經費我今天先把問題丟出來給教育部要拜託國教署後續我們可不可以這樣我們請請到我們辦公室來開會討論"},{"start":135.757,"end":163.738,"text":"好不好因為這個會期大家很忙我們沒有辦法開相關座談會但是我們有非常多普特融合的困境要拜託國教署跟教育部協助這些地方老師家長學生一起解決可以嗎可以我們這兩週到委員辦公室來相談好我們辦公室同仁會儘快約好謝謝下一個是關於偏鄉代理教師的議題喔那目前呢我們要感謝國教署一樣放寬偏鄉代理教師年資採記的認定那可是現在有一個困境又跑出來了例如說因為學校併校"},{"start":164.659,"end":184.252,"text":"因為學校廢校所以他不得去了別的學校或者是他因為考取了不同的縣市的其他偏鄉學校那過去的年資可不可以採計這又要回到相關辦法啦相關經費預算對不對應該部長跟署長看起來是一臉很難立刻給我答案對不對這個我們基本上只要"},{"start":186.833,"end":215.307,"text":"屬於個人的一些個人因素那我們是可以採取的好 可是我剛剛說不同縣市就是非屬個人因素應該是說非屬個人因素是整個體制的問題那我認為因為我們陸陸續續收到陳情我認為狀況需要盤點那署長我們是不是也來開會我們來看一下偏鄉代理教師到底在第一線還有哪些現象導致他們沒有辦法累積這個佳績好不好我們來盤點我想我們同意委員所關心的這個我們看怎麼樣來謝謝"},{"start":216.688,"end":233.18,"text":"好那再來這個問題我覺得比較可怕昨天我看到一個新聞台北市說這三年都找不到代理教師教育局希望教育部放寬三年續聘的年限我不知道教育部的立場是什麼可是根據第一線教師的生命經驗我要說這個問題很大"},{"start":235.041,"end":261.822,"text":"當你把代理教師全部放好放滿的時候是不是現場充滿了代理教師還有現場已經在代理教師的人會不會就上不了岸沒有辦法成為正式教師而當現場都是代理教師的時候我們甚至擔心他們的教學品質而教學品質會影響到孩子的受教權我知道你們可能還在研議但是我也很怕很多地方政府開始學台北市政府有樣學樣我認為非常可怕而回過來看我更擔心另外一件事情"},{"start":262.222,"end":287.916,"text":"因為花蓮縣政府他們說今年不開正式教師缺那意思就是說他代理缺會開好開滿我不知道蔣萬安跟傅昆齊有沒有講好可是我來自第一線地方教師我自己當過偏鄉的老師我完全不認同這樣的政策我不知道教育部現在研議的進度我更擔心後續有藍白縣市首長有樣學樣但我要積極的拜託教育部這件事情要公正公開透明討論跟研議我不知道你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":288.556,"end":315.303,"text":"的確像委員所提這個意見各縣市可能不依所以我們要廣徵各縣市的意見校長團體教師團體來審慎的評估是好那我們辦公室也會持續追蹤因為這真的會影響到學生不能放任全部現場都是代理教師好來下一個學生輔導法我們當時都非常關心當時修完法之後我們有四個法要修訂我們現在看到有一個法就是主管機關專業輔導人員設置辦法還沒有預告我們想要知道相關的進度"},{"start":318.427,"end":346.533,"text":"好這些在六月份都會處理而且會依文在文會上審議的結果來公佈好因為其實到六月底其實時間真的不多而且距離六月其實不是六月底是六月十八只剩下三個禮拜我們很擔心所以拜託你們進度一定要跟上還有就是校園內輔導主任主長輔導教師應該遵守的專業倫理規範當時在附帶決議的時候有提醒教育部要做這個事情我們也很擔心相關的進度我也要確定一下"},{"start":347.153,"end":364.894,"text":"距離六月到期也只剩下三個禮拜喔還有專輔人員的調整新點的辦法目前在行政院的進度如果都還在研議中是不是就後續希望我們可以準時的看到相關的進度署長我們跟學特斯會在這一週內到我們辦公室來有一些進度跟您回報沒問題好來"},{"start":366.616,"end":386.982,"text":"再來一樣是特教生的問題特教生的孩子真的很多的困境他落在小學中學大學大學當然我們收到海洋科技大學學生的陳情他們告訴我們聽達源因為他落在學校的資源分配的問題所以學校呢做了一些我們覺得不大OK的事情那來自陳情有聽達源陳情障礙者的陳情還有很多障權團體告訴我們來下一張問題這麼多一樣"},{"start":390.743,"end":418.731,"text":"人手不足的問題服務的面向沒有涵蓋學生的需求甚至是沒有合約的只要有聽達人說我要跟你學校簽合約保障我們雙方的權益結果學校就不用了這也非常的荒謬還有甚至學校的服務費用提供標準也非常不一致我們認為這些問題很大一樣時間有限我們辦公室積極來找你們討論可以嗎 司長好 謝謝司長來 下一個手機管制這一題教育部辛苦了期待後續的座談會我們可以廣邀更多的學生一起座談好不好 保重"},{"start":419.608,"end":449.068,"text":"好謝謝來下一張主席你看我很快好來足協的爭議部長我之前跟你說過我在去年喔部長是2024的3月21當時還不是你喔抱歉好3月21我當時說足協的欠款明細結果到現在已經超過一年多還沒有出來我不知道為什麼但我會持續追蹤要拜託體育署持續幫忙時間有限我不再多說但是足協真的不應該這樣他不能騙你我覺得他騙你啦他騙你說他還了A還了B還了C但是他為什麼欠款明細不敢出來"},{"start":450.009,"end":464.445,"text":"我不知道拜託署長好下一題運動部陳立在即部長我知道你非常關心體育界的孩子在學校的一些狀況部長跟你講有兩個新聞我覺得這個是我們要公開跟孩子道歉我講這麼重的話因為有一批"},{"start":464.565,"end":484.965,"text":"一大人沒有檢查出A校的報名資格不符導致B校的小孩喪失全國賽的資格可是他們已經打進全國賽但是卻沒有辦法去比賽這個狀況我不知道您的幕僚有沒有跟您報告再來我們甚至看到體育署本來有一個標案是關於迷你足球計畫活動是全國性的賽事結果不知道為什麼也停辦了"},{"start":485.606,"end":506.99,"text":"我們來自於基層的聲音看到孩子們很多在體育開開心心運動的權益被犧牲了完全都是因為我們大人的行政疏失我真的於心不忍當然已經事情都發生了我不知道我們後續還可以怎麼彌補我想到有一個是公開道歉我們去跟孩子說明我們讓相關行政機關也要出來扛相關的責任部長你怎麼看"},{"start":511.044,"end":538.498,"text":"這部分台南市體育局的部分我們會再請他們來妥善處理至於這個全民賽事的部分我們當時的確因為考慮到今年的量能的關係我們就只有舉辦3對3跟街舞我知道就是總統盃嘛希望明年能夠來舉辦我真的覺得很遺憾啦署長說實話其實你知道我對於體育界的孩子們的關心我認為不能只有這樣說我們一定要來後續想辦法我們辦公室可以找體育署來積極開會嗎"},{"start":539.619,"end":557.981,"text":"好沒問題我認為這件事情不能就只有這樣解決因為我們做出來的行為其他的孩子會看其他的學校會看其他單位會看其他縣市政府會看可以嗎是好下一個我們當然也不傾向辦全國的賽事沒關係這個細節我們再來討論因為主席已經站起來了我現在不是叫文但回娘家感謝主席多給我這麼多時間"},{"start":559.202,"end":587.917,"text":"好 体育署要推后续因为体育署成立了运动部之后要推社区运动要把其他国小全国赛事也都停办我们听了非常难过不知道为什么会有这样的风声来自民间的风声我要说我们以日本为借镜日本他们有社区运动可是他们还是没有取消所谓教育部主办的全国性赛事只要有好的赛制规划其实孩子们还是可以在国小阶段有全国性的舞台关键不是比赛部长关键是交流学习"},{"start":589.117,"end":616.525,"text":"這件事情非常非常的重要在後續運動部成立之後或是現在在這之前因為我們九月會有新的運動部我不知道你們後續的規劃但是我先把問題丟出來給部長要拜託部長在跟新的運動部籌備規劃會議當中把這個問題放進去考慮好不好不管是社區運動還是學校運動好最後最後來一樣暴力的問題好下一張這個你們在排好下一張我要講體育"},{"start":618.546,"end":638.856,"text":"裡面有非常多的大人喜歡用這是訓練這個是學習也就是不當的對待用暴力的方法欺負我們的小孩部長我之前跟你講過在美國有一個教練他是一個冠軍教練喔他拉了一下小孩的頭髮他就被fire掉了縱算他是可以拿冠軍的教練但是在我們台灣部長我之前有跟你講過來下一張"},{"start":641.077,"end":657.082,"text":"這兩個案子一個是高中排球教練砸小孩用球砸小孩結果結論是身介一致高中籃球隊長年的體罰不是一次是屢次長年的體罰很多孩子都站出來講了最後我們現在看到的結果是調查不成立"},{"start":657.822,"end":680.529,"text":"而運動部要成立了體育現場這些孩子們的傷痕真的可以這樣被無視嗎部長我依然焦慮我依然擔心我依然要把這個情況告訴部長我知道不是您可以立刻解決的但是我一併把問題丟出來要拜託部長我認為教育部或者是體育署對於體育暴力零容忍這件事情真的不能遇到所謂冠軍教練就轉彎"},{"start":683.392,"end":690.616,"text":"當這樣的個案成立當這樣的個案變成事實 部長我們難道是在告訴更多運動教練說沒關係你繼續打孩子當成是訓練嗎這樣的事件屢見不鮮耶 部長好 謝謝部長啦好 最後 謝謝部長"},{"start":701.8,"end":731.36,"text":"主席最後一分鐘我感謝署長你之前在一個公開課程宣示兒少教練職能課程非常非常的重要下一張你肯定兒少工作證你也肯定兒少教練職能課程但是我不知道這個肯定我們後續的推動會有多麼艱辛我相信來自現場的聲音一定很多來自現場雜音很多但是我要拜託署長我要拜託部長我要拜託所有現在在幫忙籌備運動部的大人們要把兒少工作證跟兒少教練職能工作課程這件事情"},{"start":732.14,"end":746.34,"text":"放進思維因為說實話很多現場大人覺得我就去聽聽頭影片甚至我邊滑手機我們真心在上課我們真心把兒少這件事情放進心裡作為我後續職業生涯當中很重要的依據我不知道好 最後一張"},{"start":747.703,"end":753.529,"text":"這個比較困難署長我可不可以拜託你們喔我不要出所資我們就請你們直接來開會好不好請教育部幫我收集從六月開始各個單項協會教練裁判的講習課程的課程錄影我們共同來看他們的課程有沒有問題有沒有需要調整"},{"start":763.078,"end":791.259,"text":"我也要拜託教育部提供過去一整年當中各個單項協會教練裁判真能在談到兒少性品禁藥課程的講師名單還有相關課程的設計流程有沒有哪一些問題我們希望真的協助未來在運動部成立之後拿著這些單項運動教練的大人們他們真的對於兒少不會只有性品不會只有知道不能打小孩他必須要全面的認識小孩他必須要徹底更改他過往對兒少的認知"},{"start":792.72,"end":809.349,"text":"否則運動部成立之後我們的全民運動署可能以後你會有接不完的陳情是關於這些社區運動教練或是學校裡面的教練繼續不當的肢體暴力對待我們的小孩可以嗎這一張知識資料我們可不可以共同一起來研究署長"},{"start":810.216,"end":833.178,"text":"報告委員,我的想法跟您相應蠻接近的,就是除了教練證之外,未來就是18歲以下一定要有兒少工作證來補強,所以這部分我們往這個方向,而且我希望能夠登記,而且能夠做加強強度的管理,所以這部分就有點類似拖音那種制度的感覺,就是不是只有上課而已,我們還是要做一個監管,那我們這個方向來進行。"},{"start":833.959,"end":842.215,"text":"阿我這些資料可以給我嗎你們可以拍一下這個投影片如果不清楚我們再來討論好謝謝主席我們時間有限超級無敵謝謝主席讓我超時這麼久謝謝"},{"start":844.912,"end":866.084,"text":"這個我想教育體育不分黨派大家一起來監督一起來努力謝謝官員請回座謝謝陳培鈺委員的質詢張其凱委員比較辛苦也謝謝張其凱委員的酒後那我們先確認一下我們接下來先請張家俊委員質詢張家俊委員張家俊委員不在那我們接下來有請張其凱委員質詢謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時12分）主席，我超時一下下，但我保證會很快。有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長備詢。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長好。有一題其實非常困難，就是普特融合。因為普特融合政策推下去絕對是立意良善，但是在現場的執行出現了很多狀況，我今天就一併跟部長回復，我們陸陸續續都有收到一些新的陳情與狀況。","第一個是關於特教加給的部分，我在上個月質詢教育部的時候，教育部說各個縣市都已經同意特教加給，國教署當時也說4月底會把調升案送往行政院，我再次跟國教署確定一下，目前已經送了嗎？"],["彭署長富源：送了。"],["陳委員培瑜：送了，太好了！那行政院簽核的狀況是如何？沒問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：現在已經送到行政院。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以我們等行政院簽核，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤。目前你們認為有沒有機會在今年完成調升？好啦！我們一起期待，我看部長答不出來，我幫你答，我們一起期待，我們也會持續……"],["鄭部長英耀：那個方向是我們有在努力的，因為我們已經把文送出去了。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們一起拜託行政院支持。","接下來我要講的是，在整個體制當中，有一些人也在做類似的工作，但是他卻沒有相關的加給，我把相關情況向部長還有署長說明，包含有一類是商借到教育局或是特教資源中心的特教老師，他們如果沒有授課的部分就不會有這個加給，可是如果他只有行政會有行政加給，所以沒有特教加給造成的影響就還好。","第二類，有一類老師他是專職心評老師，因為是專職心評，所以他不會拿到一份1,100元的撰稿費，他只會有施測費和交通費，甚至有來自現場的案例，一個學年可能要做75案到85案，而且常常是兩、三天內要完成十幾案，工作非常吃力不討好，可是沒有相關加給。","因為事涉到經費，我今天先把問題丟出來給教育部，要拜託國教署後續請到我們辦公室來開會討論，好不好？因為這個會期大家很忙，我們沒有辦法開相關座談會，但是我們有非常多普特融合的困境要拜託國教署跟教育部協助這些地方老師、家長、學生一起解決，可以嗎？"],["彭署長富源：可以，我們這2週到委員辦公室詳談。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們辦公室同仁會儘快約，謝謝。","下一個是關於偏鄉代理教師的議題，我們要感謝國教署放寬偏鄉代理教師年資採計的認定，可是現在有一個困境又跑出來了，例如因為學校併校或廢校，所以他不得不去別的學校或是他因為考取了不同縣市的其他偏鄉學校，過去的年資可不可以採計的問題，這又要回到相關辦法、經費預算，對不對？部長和署長看起來一臉很難立刻給我答案，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，基本上只要非屬個人因素，我們是可以採計的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是我剛剛說不同縣市就是非屬個人因素啦！應該是說非屬個人因素是整個體制的問題，因為我們陸陸續續有收到陳情，我認為狀況需要盤點，署長，我們是不是也來開會？我們來看一下偏鄉代理教師到底在第一線還有哪些現象，導致他們沒辦法累積這個加給，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來盤點，我們同意委員所關心的這部分，我們看怎樣來協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。","再來，這個問題我覺得比較可怕，昨天我看到一個新聞，臺北市說這3年都找不到代理教師，教育局希望教育部放寬3年的續聘年限，我不知道教育部的立場是什麼，可是根據第一線教師的生命經驗，我要說這個問題很大，當你把代理教師全部放好放滿的時候，是不是現場充滿了代理教師？還有，現在已經在代理教師的人會不會就上不了岸，沒有辦法成為正式教師？當現場都是代理教師的時候，我們甚至擔心他們的教學品質，而教學品質會影響到孩子的受教權。我知道你們可能還在研議，但是我也很怕很多地方政府開始學臺北市政府，有樣學樣，我認為非常可怕。","回過頭來看，我更擔心另外一件事情，因為花蓮縣政府說今年不開正式教師缺，意思就是說代理缺會開好開滿，我不知道蔣萬安跟傅崐萁有沒有講好，可是我來自第一線的地方教師，我自己當過偏鄉的老師，我完全不認同這樣的政策。我不知道教育部現在研議的進度，我更擔心後續有藍白縣市首長有樣學樣，我要積極地拜託教育部，這件事情要公正、公開、透明討論跟研議，我不知道你們的看法是什麼？"],["彭署長富源：的確像委員所提，各縣市的意見可能不一，所以我們要廣徵各縣市的意見，包含校長團體、教師團體，審慎地來評估，謝謝您。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，好，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤，因為這真的會影響到學生，不能放任現場全部都是代理教師。","下一個，我們當時都非常關心學生輔導法，當時修完法之後有4個法要修訂，我們現在看到有一個法就是主管機關專業輔導人員設置辦法還沒有預告，我們想要知道相關的進度。"],["彭署長富源：6月份都會處理，而且會依委員在委員會上審議的結果來公布。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為距離6月底時間真的不多，而且不是6月底，是6月18日，只剩下3個禮拜，我們很擔心，所以拜託你們進度一定要跟上。還有就是校園內輔導主任、組長及輔導教師應該遵守的專業倫理規範，當時在附帶決議的時候有提醒教育部要做這件事情，我們也很擔心相關的進度，所以我要確定一下，距離6月到期也只剩下3個禮拜哦！還有專輔人員調整薪點的辦法目前在行政院的進度，如果都還在研議中，署長，是不是後續如我們所希望的，可以準時看到相關的進度？"],["彭署長富源：對，我們跟學特司會在一週內到委員辦公室，有一些進度跟您回報，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒問題。","再來，一樣是特教生的問題，特教生的孩子真的有很多困境，他落在小學、中學、大學，大學端我們收到海洋科技大學學生的陳情，他們告訴我們聽打員因為落在學校資源分配的問題，所以學校做了一些我們覺得不大OK的事情。包含聽打員陳情、障礙者的陳情，還有很多障權團體告訴我們，問題有這麼多，包括人手不足的問題，服務面向沒有涵蓋學生的需求，甚至是沒有合約的，只要有聽打員說：「欸！我要跟學校簽合約，保障我們雙方的權益」，結果學校就不用了，這也非常荒謬。甚至學校的服務費用提供標準也非常不一致，我們認為這些問題很大。時間有限，司長，我們辦公室積極來找你們討論可以嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝司長。","下一個，手機管制這一題，教育部辛苦了，期待後續的座談會我們可以廣邀更多學生一起座談，部長，好不好？好，謝謝。","主席，你看我講很快。有關足協的爭議，部長，我之前跟你說過……我在2024年3月21日，不好意思，當時的部長還不是你，我當時說足協的欠款明細問題，結果到現在已經超過一年多還沒有出來，我不知道為什麼，但我會持續追蹤，要拜託體育署持續幫忙。時間有限我不再多說，但是足協真的不應該這樣，我覺得他騙你啦！他騙你說他還了A、還了B、還了C，但是我不知道他為什麼欠款明細不敢拿出來？這件事拜託署長。","運動部成立在即，我知道部長非常關心體育界的孩子在學校的一些狀況。部長，我跟你講有兩個新聞，我覺得這個是要公開跟孩子道歉。我講這麼重的話，因為有一批大人沒有檢查出A校的報名資格不符，導致B校的小孩喪失全國賽的資格，可是他們已經打進全國賽，但是卻沒辦法去比賽。這個狀況我不知道您的幕僚有沒有跟您報告？","再來，我們甚至看到體育署本來有一個標案，是關於迷你足球計畫活動的全國性賽事，結果不知道為什麼也停辦了。我們來自於基層的聲音，看到孩子們很多在體育方面，開開心心運動的權益被犧牲了，完全都是因為我們大人的行政疏失，我真的於心不忍。事情已經發生了，我不知道我們後續還可以怎麼彌補。我想到的是公開道歉，我們去跟孩子說明，也要讓相關行政機關出來扛相關的責任。部長，你怎麼看？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，有關臺南市體育局的部分，我們會再請他們妥善處理。至於全民賽事的部分，我們當時的確因為考慮到今年的量能關係，因此只有舉辦三對三跟街舞。我們明年會……"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道，就是總統盃。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們也希望明年能夠舉辦……"],["陳委員培瑜：我真的覺得很遺憾。署長，你知道我對於體育界孩子們的關心，我認為不能只有這樣，我們後續一定要來想辦法，我們辦公室可以找體育署來積極開會嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：我認為這件事情不能就只有這樣解決，因為我們做出來的行為其他的孩子會看、其他的學校會看、其他單位會看、其他縣市政府會看，可以嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。跟委員報告，我們也不傾向辦全國的賽事，希望分區……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，這個細節我們再來討論，因為主席已經站起來了，我不是教文委員會的委員感謝主席多給我這麼多時間。","因為成立了運動部之後要推社區運動，要把其他國小全國賽事都停辦，我們聽了非常難過，不知道為什麼會有這樣來自民間的風聲？我們以日本為借鏡，日本有社區運動，可是他們沒有取消教育部主辦的全國性賽事。其實只要有好的賽制規劃，孩子們還是可以在國小階段有全國性的舞台。部長，關鍵不是比賽，而是交流、學習，這件事情非常非常重要，在後續九月體育運動部成立之後或是在這之前，我不知道你們後續的規劃，但是我先把問題丟出來給部長，不管是社區運動還是學校運動，拜託部長在新的運動部籌備規劃會議當中，把這個問題放進去考慮，好不好？","最後，一樣是暴力的問題，體育裡面有非常多的大人喜歡用「這是訓練，這個是學習」，這種方式也就是不當的對待，用暴力的方法欺負我們的小孩。部長，我之前跟你講過，在美國有一個冠軍教練，就算他是可以拿冠軍的教練，他拉了一下小孩的頭髮就被fire掉了。但是在我們臺灣，部長我之前跟你講過，這兩個案子，一個是高中排球教練用球砸小孩，結果是記申誡一支。另一個是高中籃球隊長年的體罰，不是一次，是屢次長年的體罰，很多孩子都站出來講了，最後我們看到結果是調查不成立。運動部要成立了，體育現場這些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12:57:30","影片長度":"00:09:15","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T12:48:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:57:30+08:00","duration":555,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.51034375,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.395968750000002,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.05784375,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.918468750000002,"end":44.260343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.81721875,"end":45.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.96471875,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.710968750000006,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.28846875,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.672218750000006,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.24534375,"end":70.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.41221875000001,"end":89.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.48971875000001,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":90.59909375000001,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.24034375000001,"end":92.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":99.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.27284375,"end":109.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.64784375,"end":102.98534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.77784375,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.75221875000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.50221875000001,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.25721875,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.47159375000001,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.61471875000001,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.18846875000001,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.25596875000001,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.17534375,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.15534375000001,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.97409375,"end":178.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.04096875000002,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.42784375000002,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.39784375000002,"end":203.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.56034375000002,"end":205.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.88034375,"end":211.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.53784375,"end":216.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.92534375000002,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.31721875000002,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.54409375,"end":230.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.70784375000002,"end":247.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.80659375000002,"end":251.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.99159375000002,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.57346875000002,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.08784375,"end":261.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.91409375,"end":290.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.77034375,"end":292.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.50846875,"end":298.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.03909375,"end":300.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.41846875000005,"end":309.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.04159375,"end":316.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.11221875,"end":324.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.35159375,"end":349.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.81596875,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.06409375000004,"end":363.0459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90.001,"text":"因為這個小孩非常明確的就是已經崩潰可是又持續的去訪談他那這個事後我們到底有沒有人可以去接觸這個小孩是完全不知道的所以我想這件事情其實看起來就是我們為了追求新聞的利益已經凌駕了兒少最佳利益的這件事情所以我想問一下就是說雖然在我們的兒少法第69條裡面呢它不是在這個下面所列的這個規範可是如果我們看一下"},{"start":291.062,"end":316.413,"text":"下一個我們來看一下中華民國電視學會新聞委員會的一個自律公約他就有講到如果說這個是小朋友的一些新聞報導如果是傷者被害者及罹難者的家屬訪問應該要尊重當事人的意願及身心狀況以及如果說今天對於兒童的事件報導不得有行為兒童及少年的姓名這些我們都非常清楚"},{"start":317.213,"end":340.545,"text":"其中特別重要的是如果我們要採訪兒少當事人應先表明記者身份及取得兒少兒童兒少本人還有監護人之同意應在非強迫或違反兒童少年當事人的受訪意願之下才可以進行採訪報導我認為我們這一篇報導其實已經違反了這個自律公約所以我想作為"},{"start":341.505,"end":370.741,"text":"衛福部是兒少的主管機關是不是可以盡快的來跟NCC的討論避免這個小孩受到惡毒的傷害那是不是這邊可以承諾我們盡快的來跟NCC要求他啟動媒體的自律委員會或是倫理委員會來討論這樣子的採訪行為是否過當那因為我想衛福部就是一個保護我們兒少的主管機關這件事情是不是可以要求衛福部盡快的來完成呢"},{"start":371.786,"end":384.274,"text":"沒問題 記憶保護兒童少年這個權益我想我們的確應該做積極的更積極 那我想最積極的第一件事情這個影片可以先撤掉嗎這個新聞片段可以嗎"},{"start":388.626,"end":389.626,"text":"這大概要多久的時間呢"},{"start":406.772,"end":435.014,"text":"移除下架部分就是看如果他的IP在國內那速度是相較快的那如果是國外我們可能還需要一些作業時間好我想那應該是一個月以內我們都可以把包含我們跟NCC的討論對不對要不要啟動這個自律委員會或是倫理委員會這個部分應該也是一個月之內我們都可以來完成對不對謝謝部長那再來我快快的問一個問題就是有關於監視錄影器的一個推動的辦理的一個狀況就是說其實在112年的時候魏福佩奇就有一些相關的說明就是說我們的這些監視錄影設備呢"},{"start":436.756,"end":463.678,"text":"應該要留存30日那可是我們自己也看了11年到12年我們的唾液中心發生的不當對待就有114件可是呢在109到112年裡面我們就發現呢裡面的這個監視設備因為人為操作不當或是損壞就有10件那例行稽查發現毀損然後經現體改善就有31件所以這就造成是說我們當時才會去推那個雲端儲存的一個規定可是呢現在我們可以看到說"},{"start":465.282,"end":480.687,"text":"好像在上面是說因為沒有法令的規定所以現在目前是有地方那雖然我們現在已經要準備立法放在兒托法裡面了嘛那我想問一下目前在地方現在我們的一個各縣市處理的狀況是什麼好 那個說市長"},{"start":486.111,"end":513.672,"text":"跟我們報告那當然全面性的這樣子做雲端的影像的備份的動作我們現在列在兒童推服務法的草案裡面那在立法以外那目前已經有縣市已經開始地方自己在做推動的主要是針對在例如說公辦的或者公辦民營的部分地方縣市有在推動的部分我們大概也會透過計畫性來做一個個案的來做一個相關的補助我們會持續的來做推動"},{"start":513.712,"end":528.072,"text":"但是沒有多少縣市已經 目前我們知道應該有六個六個 那我想這個進度好像稍微慢了點齁因為從也一段時間1112年我們就提供相關的補助了吧 對不對所以那這個部分我們大概什麼時候要統一的推行呢"},{"start":529.694,"end":552.372,"text":"這個部分在全面推行的部分確實我們有徵詢過相關的法律跟法律的專家的意見那認為這個部分確實是未來要做有法律上的有法源的要求鼓勵他們嘛鼓勵的部分我們一直有持續的在做好那因為我時間差不多那我們事後再約個時間好不好就是各個縣市到底現在到底卡在哪裡好不好謝謝好的謝謝好我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1802,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時48分）請部長跟保護司司長。"],["主席：部長、司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：我今天要針對媒體報導的部分來請教部長跟司長，上個禮拜三峽的車禍造成3死12傷，其實有很多小孩，我想大家都非常清楚，他們就是國中小的小孩，其實大家都非常痛苦，這個事件發生之後，因為當下是下課時間，其實有很多小孩的同學完全目擊事發經過，我想先詢問一下，我們現在有沒有去掌握學校有沒有提供一些心理的支持系統去照顧這些可能是他的同學、可能是目擊這個事件的小孩？包含當天我們可以看到這個導護老師在現場，最後也是崩潰在路邊大哭，我們有沒有提供相關的心理支持系統呢？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，一發生事情的時候，當然第一個，緊急醫療救治最重要，我們馬上去了解這3家醫院他們整個照護量能，回報的都是已經有做最適當的醫療處置。"],["張委員雅琳：我講的是目睹現場的小孩。"],["邱部長泰源：接下來第二個，我們馬上請社工師跟心理師去了解一下這些家庭，也包括學校裡面有目睹的人，受傷害的家庭當然是最重要。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["邱部長泰源：第二個就是目睹者的心理，這個部分我們都有請社工師跟心理師去協助新北市政府……"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在新北市政府已經有提供相關的心理支援到學校裡了嗎？可不可以再說明清楚一點？"],["邱部長泰源：這個由社工司回答一下。"],["蘇司長昭如：謝謝委員的關心。事實上上禮拜我們林政務次長也召開一個這個案子的專案會議，就是行政院的相關部會包括教育部、新北市政府的教育局跟社會局，我們有做過一些討論，因為這個事件滿多是國小的師生，所以社會局跟教育局他們有做一些分工，針對學生、師生的部分是由學校的輔導老師跟社工師等等來做一個介入跟了解，如果不是學校的人員，那就是由我們社會局的社工用一戶一社工的方式來關懷他們的狀況以及提供後續的協助。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，學校這個資源會協助小孩到什麼樣的狀況？因為可能不是一次就結束了，所以我們想了解一下新北市這個資源大概會投入到什麼時候、會觀察小孩子的狀況？"],["蘇司長昭如：跟委員報告，因為這個部分是在教育局，我想我們可以來了解，但是我相信他們也有相關的經驗在學校輔導資源的部分，如果有需要，事後再跟委員來回報。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。再下一個問題，我想大家可能也都有看到這則新聞，講起來是滿痛心的，就是這個小孩被很多媒體圍堵採訪他經歷這件事情的心情是如何，在整個採訪新聞的過程中，這個小孩其實已經幾乎崩潰了，他是用一種非常顫抖的聲音去描述整個事發經過，因為他的同學就突然不見了，在這個過程中他也數度大哭，所以如果你認真看完的話，其實真的會非常非常的心疼，我自己看了都覺得非常的痛苦。我也有收到一些家長陳情，他們認為媒體不應該在這個當下去訪問這個小孩，這是第一個。","第二個，他們不應該把這樣的內容再放到網路上，因為這個小孩非常明確的就是已經崩潰，可是卻持續的訪談他，事後到底有沒有人可以去接住這個小孩也是完全不知道的，所以這件事情看起來就是我們為了追求新聞的利益，已經凌駕了兒少最佳利益。所以我想問一下，雖然在我們的兒少法第六十九條裡面，這不是在下面所列的規範，可是我們來看一下中華民國電視學會新聞委員會自律公約就有提到，如果是小朋友的一些新聞報導，如果是傷者、被害者及罹難者的家屬訪問，應該要尊重當事人的意願及身心狀況，以及如果今天對於兒少的事件報導，不得有行為兒童及少年的姓名，這些我們都非常清楚，其中特別重要的是，如果我們要採訪兒少當事人，應先表明記者身分及取得兒少本人還有監護人之同意，應在非強迫或違反兒童、少年當事人的受訪意願之下才可以進行採訪報導。","我認為這篇報導其實已經違反這個自律公約，衛福部作為兒少的主管機關，是不是可以儘快來跟NCC討論，避免小孩受到二度傷害，是不是可以承諾儘快來跟NCC討論，要求它啟動媒體的自律委員會或是倫理委員會來討論這樣的採訪行為是否過當？因為我想衛福部就是一個保護我們兒少的主管機關，這件事情是不是可以要求衛福部儘快來完成？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，基於保護兒童、少年的權益，我想我們的確應該做積極的動作。"],["張委員雅琳：好，更積極，我想最積極的第一件事情是這個影片可以先撤掉嗎？這個新聞片段可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：撤掉……"],["張委員雅琳：可以嗎？司長。"],["張司長秀鴛：跟委員報告，如果是電視臺的部分，會後我們就可以處理，如果是在網路上，我們會透過iWIN請網路平臺業者移除下架。"],["張委員雅琳：這大概要多久的時間呢？"],["張司長秀鴛：移除下架部分就是看，如果它的IP在國內，那速度是相對快的，如果是國外，我們可能還需要一些作業時間。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想應該是一個月以內，我們都可以把……包含我們跟NCC的討論要不要啟動這個自律委員會或是倫理委員會，這個部分應該也是一個月之內我們都可以來完成，對不對？謝謝部長。","再來，我快速的問一個問題，就是有關於監視錄影器的推動辦理狀況。在112年的時候，衛福部其實有一些相關的說明，就是說我們的這些監視錄影設備應該要留存30日，可是我們自己也看到110年至112年，托嬰中心發生不當對待就有114件，可是109到112年，我們發現監視設備因為人為操作不當或損壞就有10件，例行稽查發現毀損經限期改善就有31件，所以這就造成我們當時才會去推了一個雲端儲存的規定，可是現在我們也可以看到，好像在上面是說因為沒有法令的規定，所以目前是由地方處理，雖然我們現在已經準備立法，放在兒托法裡面了，我想問一下，目前地方各縣市的處理狀況是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：請周署長。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，關於全面性做雲端的影像備份動作，我們現在是列在兒童托育服務法草案裡面，在立法以外，目前已經有縣市開始自己在做推動，主要是針對例如公辦的或者公辦民營的部分，地方縣市有在推動的部分我們大概也會透過計畫性來做個案相關的補助，我們會持續來推動。"],["張委員雅琳：現在有多少縣市已經自行辦理？"],["周代理署長道君：目前我們知道的應該有6個。"],["張委員雅琳：6個？我想這個進度好像稍微慢了點，因為也已經一段時間了，112年我們就有提供相關的補助對不對？這個部分我們大概什麼時候會統一推行呢？"],["周代理署長道君：這個部分在全面推行上，我們有徵詢過相關法律專家的意見，認為這個部分確實未來要有法源的要求。"],["張委員雅琳：我了解、我了解，但是我們還是希望鼓勵他們，因為現在是自行辦理，那鼓勵的部分……"],["周代理署長道君：鼓勵的部分我們一直有持續地在做。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為我的時間也差不多了，我們事後再約個時間，就是看看各個縣市現在到底卡在哪裡，好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的、好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們會議休息，下午2點繼續開會。","休息（12時57分）","繼續開會（14時2分）"],["主席：繼續開會。我們繼續來作詢答。","請羅明才委員，羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請何欣純委員，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員來作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b94896a008c65760e795f59f7b69f6aea3426710e0a50eedba8a105b9bd18edd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:37:54 - 12:48:10","影片長度":"00:10:16","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T12:37:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:48:10+08:00","duration":616,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.050968750000001,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.020968750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.032843750000001,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.606593750000002,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.770343750000002,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.95596875,"end":23.352218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.57159375,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.96784375,"end":99.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.88034375000001,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.21346875,"end":106.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.11971875,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.56534375000001,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.16846875,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.95721875000001,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":162.08159375,"end":201.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.46784375000001,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.67034375,"end":247.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.32221875000002,"end":243.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.16534375,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.66909375,"end":263.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.80409375,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.97284375000004,"end":264.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.44096875,"end":292.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.92909375,"end":341.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.22221875,"end":356.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.08471875000004,"end":358.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.69221875,"end":359.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.56971875000005,"end":366.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.60659375,"end":373.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.67721875,"end":399.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.88846875,"end":405.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.52909375,"end":403.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.23346875000004,"end":430.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.40284375000005,"end":453.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.21221875000003,"end":434.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.17346875000004,"end":438.78096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.07596875,"end":441.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.33284375000005,"end":444.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.49659375000005,"end":451.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.06159375000004,"end":452.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.81659375000004,"end":454.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.17096875000004,"end":480.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.27221875000004,"end":454.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.15534375000004,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.56346875,"end":486.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.14471875000004,"end":494.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.58659375,"end":494.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.44721875000005,"end":498.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.28221875,"end":513.4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楊全英邀請部長"},{"start":15.646,"end":40.034,"text":"部長好 我們首先來討論醫院的治安問題因為我們看到輔仁大學週一爆出了院內醫師人員疑似用遠端的連線方式害入了醫院的資料庫導致了病患跟醫護人員有各自外泄的疑慮除了輔大這起事件之外 今年又已經有三件"},{"start":41.234,"end":70.032,"text":"也就是有三件遭骇客攻击的事件第一个马街医院2月19号发生了这个荡积的事件医生没有办法打开病例影响到了门诊这个门诊急诊这个是太严肃的一个议题第二个张基的议题也是他是我们云章南唯一的一个医学中心但是在3月1号也侦测到了骇客攻击虽然是部分短暂的失灵但是还好"},{"start":70.572,"end":98.348,"text":"沒有資料外洩可是病人的權利怎麼樣呢那這個答案緊張第三個桃園的這個長盛醫院4月16號上個月官網公告異常了那原因也是脫離不了駭客的入侵傳出有8萬多名的患者各自有外洩的疑慮所以面對到我們醫療所醫療院所遭到駭客攻擊呢那我們衛福部你要怎麼樣來協助"},{"start":100.069,"end":118.145,"text":"跟監管本身認為一而再再而三這個對病患來講對醫院本身也都是不好請教部長好 謝謝委員的關心這個分三點報告第一個就是說我們在資通安全管理法的確我們衛護部要來管理這個關鍵基礎的需要怎麼管呢"},{"start":119.286,"end":148.696,"text":"怎麼管呢 問題一直出來 你們現在怎麼做一段呢這個部分 等一下我們請李處長再補充那第二個就是 其實我們為了擴大大家 因為後來發現這個好像治安是前面性的所以我們在5月9號也找了全國各醫院治安負責人 超過900個人來開會 同時我們也給他一個指南 應變指南那另外為了讓比較小的醫院他的量能不夠 所以"},{"start":149.216,"end":151.44,"text":"我們也請廠商提供三個月的資安的免費服務來共同抵抗這個現在的危險期這個大概有74家醫院來申請不曉得理事長有沒有補充"},{"start":162.634,"end":187.256,"text":"就像剛剛部長講的第一個最重要我們就是強化訓練所以訓練的部分不管是大醫院小醫院我們已經完成了第一期所有的訓練那第二個就是我們告訴他應變指南不管是大中小醫院他現在都有拿到這本應變指南了第三個就是他們比較沒有資源來買這個比較先進的軟體我們協調廠商在這個比較關鍵危險的三個月先提供三個月免費的一個服務所以有74家來申請"},{"start":188.957,"end":203.757,"text":"那最後一個就是我們現在全國的醫院呢都給他納入一個叫做情資分享的網站所以只要任何一家醫院有相關的受到駭客攻擊的時候他們都可以在第一個時間得到相關情資的一個分享您現在報告的當中也就是"},{"start":204.478,"end":227.357,"text":"5月9號你們召集了900個看到這個嚴肅的議題來討論那麼也協力的廠商就是現在有74家來申請前三個月免費試用是不是如此那但是部長你剛才說的他就是有困難所以他會來申請這個免費的這個部分第三個最重要的議題也就是聯網"},{"start":229.199,"end":246.657,"text":"讓我們的醫療院所知道那有這個已經有哪一家被塑到這個駭客入侵的時候其他家都能夠謹慎應對之這一點是非常的重要所以你在這個三個月那也提出了方案"},{"start":247.378,"end":262.719,"text":"也知道這個問題的嚴肅性所以本席具體要求也就是針對這樣子的一個面向我們衛福部理當應該要挺身而出的來協助跟督管那這個方案到底怎麼樣呢你再順便資料給本席"},{"start":264.141,"end":279.58,"text":"那接下來本席要請教針對今天的主題我們同一服務體系的管理與輔導機制本席也跟王玉明委員來提這個案子那我們都知道孩子是國家未來的希望更是在少子化的當中是"},{"start":280.901,"end":300.287,"text":"這個也是一個日益嚴重那這樣的一個情況之下我們要怎麼樣積極協助家庭妥善照顧這些孩子我想有幾項跟部長來討論也就是新增的居家托育人員的禁止事項他在違規祭典跟建立退場機制"},{"start":301.327,"end":321.226,"text":"還有也是很重要的加強托育人員他的勞動權益保障來避免超時的工作時間能夠保障居家托育人員收入因為我們現在都知道人員的充足是這個案子"},{"start":324.128,"end":339.878,"text":"關鍵點非常重要的關鍵因素但是我們也知道現在人數也不足那麼低薪而且調薪慢那各縣市政府所這個薪資的待遇這個落差也非常的大所以因此我們非常嚴肅的去"},{"start":342.98,"end":356.459,"text":"這個憂心也就是這個專業的人力呢人才留不住那保姆的人力也嚴重老化那麼所以請教部長這一方面你要如何的來解決請教部長"},{"start":358.083,"end":373.433,"text":"好我想托議員民間團體這幾個訴求其實剛剛都已經討論我們就是非常積極的來研議來改善那至於說現在具體的做法可不可以容我們理事長報告一下"},{"start":375.034,"end":397.695,"text":"請說非常感謝楊前副委員對這個問題的關心我想這個確實啦就是說現在孩子那些人我們真的要給他們最好的照顧我剛剛在答詢的時候有說就是說有兩個部分一個叫需求面一個供給面需求面的部分主要我們現在有那個各項對家庭的那個補助但是現在有人有說過一個重點最重要最重要的供給面就是對我們這些多餘人員我們勞動條件性質要提高"},{"start":399.096,"end":423.985,"text":"你怎麼樣保障他嘛 因為我明明看到現在的保姆人口老化嘛 那這怎麼辦 怎麼接得上來報告委員 我現在過去也在台中 給委員也很照顧我們在那邊的一個相關的經驗就是說其實最重要事實上就是說我們來嚴領一些相關的一些薪資上面包括就是說他現在如果說有符合相關的資格的話我們一年我們會有一萬八我們對這個保姆的"},{"start":428.806,"end":451.776,"text":"市長我想大家用心來把專業人才留住來把因為目前保姆願意做的年紀都有一點所以要怎麼樣能夠再接續上來這是目前本席特別說明人才的留住是我們這個政策最重要的關鍵因素所以我要求我們的部長你去盤點"},{"start":454.337,"end":479.706,"text":"因為你必須負起全國的這個責任因為你是中央政府各縣市二線市的收入落差那麼大我們要怎麼樣去把因子找出來怎麼樣去協助這個是非常的重要那你要去盤點然後資料給本席那接下來最後一個議題我功課給您COVID-19這一個部分連續七週上升"},{"start":480.686,"end":494.213,"text":"那你疾管署也說上週的門診人數哇 大家看了嚇一跳耶4萬人比前一週增加了113%你預估到6月底7月初疫情才要達到高峰耶"},{"start":495.526,"end":513.109,"text":"那這個嚴肅的議題變化那麼大感冒的也很多流感也盛行那請教你們準備好了沒有你的因應要怎麼辦你的快篩劑你的疫苗你的藥品你是否充足民眾要怎麼樣能夠防範請教"},{"start":514.738,"end":524.267,"text":"好 謝謝第一個就是在快篩這個部分我們會跟隨著疾管署的預計預計的可能的人數10號時會準備"},{"start":527.219,"end":538.902,"text":"充足的那個而且鋪路鋪好會準備充足會鋪路至於疫苗的話沒有問題疫苗我們還鼓勵大家10月1號以後沒有打第一劑的人通通可以去打 目前是夠的一定要盤點好 絕對夠那第二 那藥物的話我們還有48 46"},{"start":545.725,"end":556.918,"text":"46萬人次那一波過去的經驗一波大概用了16萬18萬左右啦所以46萬這是足夠的那另外在醫療體系方面今天劉召偉特別關心我們會一個完整的應變我們過去在COVID"},{"start":561.624,"end":563.525,"text":"這個必須因為他隨時在變訊息萬變雖然我們說我們目前大概是還蠻穩定但是一個變化那就擦槍走火了我們絕對不會容許有他擦槍走火的訊息"},{"start":577.674,"end":589.744,"text":"非常好所以本席請問你預估這一波的高風險會延到什麼時候會有多久的時間因為你們現在告訴我們的是六月底到七月初才要開始五月天專家才要開始來請問你們預估這一波的高風險會有多久時間應該說在高風大概有四週從六月八號開始一直到七月六號那一週"},{"start":607.619,"end":609.324,"text":"這個是最嚴重的?大概都有20萬左右20萬左右?謝謝你,加油!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1755,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時38分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們首先討論醫院的資安問題。我們看到輔仁大學周一爆出院內醫事人員疑似用遠端連線方式駭入醫院資料庫，導致病患跟醫務人員個資外洩的疑慮。除了輔大這起事件之外，今年已經有3件，也就是有3起遭駭客攻擊的事件，第一是馬偕醫院2月19日發生當機事件，醫生沒有辦法打開病歷，影響到門診、急診。哇！這是太嚴肅的議題。第二，彰基的議題也是，它是雲彰南唯一醫學中心，但是在3月1日也偵測到駭客攻擊。雖然是部分、短暫失靈，還好沒有資料外洩，可是病人的權利怎麼樣呢？當然緊張。第三個是桃園長慎醫院4月16日─上個月在官網公告異常，原因也脫離不了駭客入侵，傳出有八萬多名患者的個資有外洩疑慮。面對醫療院所遭到駭客攻擊，衛福部要怎麼協助跟監管？本席認為，這類事件一而再、再而三，對於病患來講、對於醫院本身來講都不好，請教部長意見。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，我分三點報告。第一個就是基於資通安全管理法，衛福部的確要管理關鍵基礎醫療設施及……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼管呢？問題一直出來，你們現在要怎麼應變呢？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我等一下請李處長補充。","第二，其實我們為了擴大……後來發現資安事件好像是全面性的，所以我們在5月9日找了全國各醫院的資安負責人，超過九百人來開會，同時給予應變指南。另外，因應比較小的醫院量能可能不夠，我們也請廠商提供3個月免費資安服務，共同抵抗現在的危險期，大概有74家醫院申請。不曉得李處長有沒有什麼要補充？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：就像部長剛剛講的，第一，最重要的是強化訓練。在訓練部分，不管是大醫院、小醫院，我們已經完成第一期所有訓練。第二，我們給他們應變指南，不管是大、中、小醫院，現在都拿到這本應變指南了。第三，如果他們比較沒有資源購買比較先進的軟體，我們就協調廠商在這比較關鍵、危險的3個月先提供3個月免費服務，所以有74家申請。最後一點就是我們現在將全國醫院都納入情資分享的網站，只要任何一家醫院受到駭客攻擊，都可以在第一時間得到相關情資的分享。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在您現在報告的內容當中，包含5月9日你們因為這個嚴肅的議題召集了九百人討論，也有協力廠商，目前有74家申請前三個月免費試用，是不是如此？但是如部長剛才說的，醫院就是有困難，才會申請免費服務。第三點是最重要的議題，也就是連網，你們要讓醫療院所知道已經有哪一家受到駭客入侵，其他家也都能謹慎應對之，這一點非常重要。","你在這三個月提出了方案，也知道這個問題的嚴肅性，所以本席具體要求，針對這樣的面向，衛福部理當挺身而出協助跟督管。關於這個方案到底執行得怎麼樣，你再提供書面資料給本席。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教，針對今天的主題：托育服務體系的管理與輔導機制，本席也跟王育敏委員提案。我們都知道，孩子是國家未來的希望，在少子化日益嚴重的情況之下，衛福部要怎麼積極協助家庭妥善照顧這些孩子？我有幾項要跟部長討論，包括新增居家托育人員禁止事項、違規記點跟建立退場機制。還有一點也是很重要的，就是加強托育人員的勞動權益保障，避免工作超時，以及要能保障居家托育人員收入。我們都知道，人員的充足是這個案子的關鍵點、是非常重要的關鍵因素，但即使現在人數不足，還是那麼低薪，而且調薪慢，各縣市政府的薪資待遇落差也非常大，因此我們是非常嚴肅的，憂心專業人力、人才留不住，保母人力也嚴重老化。請教部長，這方面要如何解決？"],["邱部長泰源：對於托育民間團體這幾個訴求，其實剛剛都已經談過，我們就是會非常積極地研議、改善。至於現在的具體作法可不可以容呂次長報告？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請說。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝楊瓊瓔委員對這個問題的關心，確實，現在孩子那麼少，我們真的要給他們最好的照顧。我剛剛在答詢的時候也說有兩個部分，一個是需求面，一個是供給面。在需求面部分，現在有各項對家長的補助，但是委員講到一個重點，是在供給面，也就是對於托育人員要把勞動薪資等條件提高。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們要怎麼樣保障嘛？我明明看到現在保母人口老化，那怎麼辦？怎麼接上來？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我過去下臺中時承蒙委員照顧，而照我們在那邊的相關經驗，其實最重要的就是我們要引領薪資，包括如果符合相關資格，對保母一年有一萬八的獎助。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，大家要用心把專業人才留住。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為目前願意做的保母年紀都有一點了，所以要討論怎麼樣接續上來，本席也特別提到，把人才留住是這個政策最重要的關鍵因素。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我要求部長盤點，你必須負起全國性的責任，因為你是中央政府。在22縣市中，各縣市保母的收入落差那麼大，要怎麼把因子找出來、怎麼協助，這個非常重要。你要盤點，然後把資料給本席。"],["邱部長泰源：好"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來是最後一個議題，我有功課給您。COVID-19疫情連續七周上升，疾管署也說上周門診人數……哇！大家看了嚇一跳欸！達到4萬人，比前一周增加了113%，但你預估疫情到六月底、七月初才要達到高峰欸！這個嚴肅的議題變化那麼大。感冒的也很多、流感也盛行，請教你們準備好了沒有？你的因應要怎麼辦？快篩劑、疫苗、藥品是否充足？民眾要怎麼防範？請教您。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。第一個就是在快篩這個部分，跟隨疾管署預計的可能人數，食藥署會準備充足，而且鋪路鋪好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會準備充足、會鋪路？"],["邱部長泰源：至於疫苗沒有問題，我們也鼓勵大家施打，10月1日以後，沒有打第一劑的人，統統可以去打。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前是夠的？一定要盤點好。"],["邱部長泰源：絕對夠。","第二，藥物的量還有46萬人次，依過去的經驗，一波用的大概是16萬、18萬左右，所以46萬是足夠的。另外，在醫療體系方面，今天劉召委也特別關心，我們會有完整的應變計畫。我們過去在處理COVID很有經驗，會提出具體的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是必須的，因為它隨時在變、瞬息萬變。雖然說目前大概還滿穩定的，但是只要有一個變化，那就擦槍走火囉！"],["邱部長泰源：我們絕對不會容許擦槍走火。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好！非常好。所以本席請問，你預估這一波高風險會延續到什麼時候、會有多久時間？"],["邱部長泰源：這可能要請莊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們現在告訴我們的是六月底到七月初才要開始。"],["邱部長泰源：請五月天專家回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問你們預估這一波高風險會延續多久？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說在高峰大概有4週，從6月8號開始一直到7月6號左右、7月6號那一週。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個是最……"],["莊署長人祥：就是高峰，大概都有20萬左右。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：20萬左右？"],["莊署長人祥：對、對、對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝你，加油！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請張雅琳委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24956490ab378a05fdb893ac8d10b5d33da3426710e0a50eed3c1d51a46f3598f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"12:29:57 - 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座談會要辦我就不曉得為什麼在當時我們這個草案要訂定之前不能夠更整密一下做好這些計畫那因此這麼大的一些紛擾那當然我想這個手機要去做一個管制現在在世界各國其實越來越多國家都這麼做"},{"start":39.728,"end":67.344,"text":"那事實上呢如果你現在去問就是你去問很多的人大家大概也都覺得說這個手機啊的確對孩子的學習是有影響的不然我們不會那麼無聊突然間要辦這個草案嘛但怎麼做尤其是我們看到我們現在要限制的對象是學生我們要限制的對象是學生我們要落實管理跟執行是老師那一旦我們限制的對象我們沒有去做一個很妥適很好的溝通或者是很便利的一個配套"},{"start":68.044,"end":93.791,"text":"那老師要去管理的時候我想啊整個學校一片師生的衝突全都上來了那現在就已經開始有了嘛所以我覺得這個部長真的要好好去想一想要怎麼做那當然6月1號我們樂見就是說我們去多聽一下學生的一個想法因為畢竟他們是背線之人那但是呢這個草案其實已經講了這麼久了那眼看著我們的公告日期是6月1號到本席記得其實我在2月份的時候曾經問過"},{"start":95.572,"end":107.57,"text":"質詢問過您 當時你說本來2月這個就要公告那一直到6月份的時候是希望要跟學生溝通嘛好 那我就請教一下我們現在不管是跟學校溝通 縣市溝通跟學生溝通 各溝通了幾次"},{"start":112.402,"end":140.539,"text":"跟委員說明一下首先我們在三月的時候我們教育部有召開一個協商的會議我要數字就好 其他不需要然後目前的話有就是中開獎平台上廣集各方的意見所以有一次的實體然後目前是等於是平台上收集資料然後六月一號會再做好 所以我們現在總共就只有跟學生團體做了一次的溝通其他在線上收集資料我們有跟教師團體溝通過嗎"},{"start":144.236,"end":170.828,"text":"跟委員報告有幾次對象一次然後我們基本上就是幾個重要的就是全國的一個教師的代表像全教總 全教產然後我們都是邀請他們就是能夠以代表來然後把他們的意見收整家長團體呢有跟什麼家長團體溝通跟委員說明一下國教盟跟全家盟"},{"start":172.171,"end":175.835,"text":"我想第一個你溝通的次數夠不夠談的內容有沒有辦法充分讓他們去做表達再來我們收集的範本數我覺得夠不夠作為一個參考這些都是很重要的再來我們看到其實這個草案要出來"},{"start":192.11,"end":215.688,"text":"公布不久以後這麼多的聲音去做反彈那尤其其中有很多是認為教育部是推諉把這個問題丟給了學校把這個壓力丟給了這個老師那也造成學生不開心那我現在其實也要問一下這個部長部長我們不管用哪一種方式現在我們要去做這個手機的統一管理那學校方面有辦法這樣配合嗎"},{"start":220.213,"end":226.621,"text":"首先手機的管理本來現在就有有跟學校做溝通嗎 根據我們的草案內容"},{"start":235.187,"end":254.306,"text":"跟委員說明一下我們當時的協商會也有找學校的行政代表全國高中小學校的行政代表是這樣嗎沒有吧我們有兩個行政的代表然後此外跟委員報告你說全國的高中小找兩個行政的代表"},{"start":254.466,"end":272.005,"text":"跟委員再說明一下就是說我們這個辦法它其實是在民國108年好啦好啦你不要說明了你下去啦那個部長所以我想喔我還是重申一次就是說我們要管理手機這件事情我們是贊成的怎麼管那個是一個重點因為我們不是要限制他用手機啊而是要看看"},{"start":272.766,"end":301.505,"text":"這個手機怎麼樣用一個做一個妥適的使用那讓這個家長放心讓學生有便利嘛但是看起來現在草原就是很混亂所以我想今天我們整個提醒不外乎是第一個我希望教育部能夠跟我們全國各縣市的學校來做一個溝通然後呢也跟我們教師的代表能夠做人數更廣更深切的溝通那麼跟學生代表那更是被限制對象也要溝通最後我想各縣市其實我們還有很多"},{"start":302.986,"end":326.184,"text":"那我覺得 趕快把這些意見採取起來那如果說你九月就要上路 其實本席看起來六月份 七月 八月 九月就要上路其實這時間是非常趕的喔所以我想這個 教育部可能要再思考一下那同時 如果今天上路以後是不是有一個示範的機制示範之後怎麼滾動是檢討能不能在會後 一週內 給我一個回覆以上這些"},{"start":327.465,"end":353.484,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這一個一週後我們在6月1號反正公聽會完我們會有一個你就要整理吧所以一週後好不好就公聽會完的一週後好不好謝謝那接下來部長一樣請教一下我想上一個禮拜也是一個這個非常沉痛的一個新聞事件我們看到三峽北大國小旁邊的這個嚴重的車禍我想那一幕幕其實我們真的都不忍心看第二次真的很心痛那我想部長"},{"start":355.726,"end":363.385,"text":"你是不是有去學校去做了一個關心或者是有成立一些什麼樣去協助受影響的學生跟家庭那目前的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":366.008,"end":389.864,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實當天事件發生我就到醫院去陪同總統也帶我們就第一時間去關心這一個受害的學生還有這一個家屬那另外我也跟我們這個新北市的張局長有這一個保持這個電話的一個聯絡怎樣的一個新北市的處理需要教育部來協助"},{"start":391.445,"end":416.608,"text":"我想后续还是有很多的事情我们专案跟地方一起我们要好好来协助这个案子不过我们来看到因为这个车祸就发生在学校旁其实过去这么多年来大大小小的车祸在学校旁其实非常非常多起了那不管这个受伤的状况事件造成的后续的严重性到多大只要有一个孩子受伤我想我们都是很不舍的"},{"start":417.248,"end":428.901,"text":"所以我想我們對於學校周邊通行步道的關注其實越來越高我們看到政府在111年開始推動校園周邊計行車安全道路改善計畫總共50億"},{"start":432.125,"end":460.306,"text":"总共50亿那本席也看了一下这个咨询率非常高将近要97%将近97%那去年我们就继续推动永续提升人行安全计划那113年到116年4年共400亿那是由地方这个县市政府提上来教育局把它提上这个需求那我们是由内政部国土署来匡列260亿还有交通部的公路局匡列140亿来协助地方做那但是呢"},{"start":460.666,"end":479.472,"text":"我現在看到好像這件事情在教育部沒有一個角色在裡面那是不是我們有去思考過就這件事情之後教育部有沒有什麼方式是協助地方政府或地方教育局跟我們國土署跟交通部一起可以把這個規劃做得更好一些這是第一個那第二個呢我們看到這個預算的執行其實剛剛我們有說了"},{"start":482.813,"end":511.807,"text":"在之前的這50億執行率其實將近97%了可是本期的了解就我自己的桃園市來講我們桃園市這麼大這麼多的學校那其實有很多的學校第一個他還不太清楚什麼樣的案子可以報上來第二個呢可能有一些些可能縣市的教育局會覺得說好像不太有符合到我們現在國土署所想要推動的目標所以我想教育部在這個部分有沒有辦法成立一個就是跨平台來做一個協助或是一個資訊資源的一個整合"},{"start":513.221,"end":533.115,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 確實我們目前是有跨部會的這樣一個平台但是委員也特別提到通學步道怎麼樣落實到社區的一個上學的一個陸隊包括學生的一個上放學 讓他能夠更安全事實上我們也在"},{"start":534.216,"end":546.188,"text":"這個前幾天的一個校安的行政院的一個會議裡面也特別提到我們地方政府也怎麼樣來協助學校在上放學的時間有更多的警力或者更多的一些呼籲家長現在家長都是上放學開車或者計程車站"},{"start":551.494,"end":575.433,"text":"我相信各縣市政府都會很重視啦各縣市政府的教育局其實也是會來做但是有的時候就是有分兩個部分嘛第一個就是我們在道路上的安全道路上的設計是不是要做一些調整那這個調整因應現在譬如說上學情況的一些變更不一或者我們現在開始鼓勵其實孩子能夠自己來上學那交通的狀況的不一致現在可能都要做一個改變"},{"start":576.693,"end":596.639,"text":"第二個部分是什麼就是教育我想部長我也看到您跟我跟我們很多人其實我們都有去參與過支持過進捐文教基金會關於這個小黃帽交通安全教育計畫我有看到部長您很可愛都有去支持嘛對不對但是呢說真的每一年我們在支持這樣的一個活動我們也試著"},{"start":598.499,"end":613.04,"text":"因為部長知道我也是桃園市家長會長協會理事長嘛我們在試著怎麼樣把它落實到地方下面去而不是這一次而已喔可是我覺得我們的教育上在交通安全教育上要再加強你我都在日本看過小學生上課"},{"start":613.881,"end":629.813,"text":"排隊只要舉著手所有的司機都會讓他那所以你也提過你也在這個今天在教育部終身教育解凍的報告當中有提到要推動交通安全的一個教育那是不是可以就這兩點跟我提一下第一個議題第二個教育"},{"start":631.374,"end":646.596,"text":"我想確實因為它真的是一個中央跟地方要合作然後我們在課程上交通安全也有一個五階段的一個課程的規劃那另外就是剛才委員也關心說"},{"start":647.797,"end":666.757,"text":"這一個怎麼樣交通要去做一些這個重新的一個更安全的一個整密的一個規劃交通部也有一個包括學校附近的那些實施入口怎麼樣讓汽車能夠迎返等於說它距離保留由現在的可能一兩公里"},{"start":667.998,"end":678.085,"text":"我給你一個具體的建議啦中央地方當然要合作那我給你一個具體的建議我們用更高的高度從教育部下來第一個呢我們政策下去比如說我們今天呢孩子要過馬路的時候到底啊我們是要覺得日本做得不錯"},{"start":683.649,"end":703.028,"text":"那我們就統一規範是不是孩子都可以舉個手啊養成這個習慣那不裡面如果下去的話也許各縣市交易局就會落實我們就試試看不管有沒有導護老師帶領有沒有我們的交通志工義工我們都做這個動作甚至於以前也有過小黃旗小黃帽等等不管哪一種方式我們試試看由中央的高度下去來做"},{"start":703.749,"end":721.226,"text":"那我覺得要去試行而不是只有做呼籲做呼籲其實是會來不及的第二個呢我覺得你可以用更高的這個高度去看到底我們現在整個學校周邊的道路有什麼樣大的問題是大家共有的狀況那麼我們下去告訴各縣市的政府有遇到這樣的狀況的時候我們要怎麼報上來"},{"start":722.867,"end":744.492,"text":"然後經由剛才我說的我們跟內政部跟交通部的一個平台那我們來做一個三方平台的溝通然後做一個這個小組我覺得這樣子會比較好那我想今天提出的建議讓部長去想一想那能夠盡快的我們從中央的高度去來重視學生的安全好不好好 謝謝委員提醒我想我們一定會努力好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美林委員質詢 官員請回座"},{"start":754.229,"end":756.622,"text":"好那現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（12時29分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長好。一樣要與你談關於手機管制相關規定的問題。聽了一個早上，學生團體沒有溝通好、教師沒有溝通好、家長有不同的意見、大家對於上路的時間也有不同的說法、試辦的方式也不同，公聽會要辦、座談會要辦，我就不知道為什麼當初在草案訂定之前不能更縝密的做好這些計畫，以至於現在引起了這麼大的紛擾。","當然，現在有越來越多國家開始進行手機的管制，事實上，如果你去問很多的人，大家大概也都認為手機的確會對孩子學習產生影響，不然我們不會這麼無聊的突然間要討論這個草案嘛！但是要怎麼做？尤其我們現在要限制的對象是學生、我們要限制的對象是學生，然而要落實管理職權的人是老師，一旦我們沒有與被限制的對象進行妥適的良好溝通或制定很便利的配套，當老師要開始管理之後，可想而知，學校就會充滿著師生之間的衝突，現在就已經開始有這樣的情況了。因此，我認為部長真的要好好想想該怎麼做。","當然我們也樂見6月1日能夠多多聽取學生的想法，畢竟他們是被限制人，但是這個草案已經講了這麼久，眼看著公告日期是到6月1日。本席記得之前質詢時問過你，當時你說本來在2月就要公告，一直到6月是希望能與學生溝通。既然如此，我就請教一下，現在無論是與學校溝通、與縣市溝通、與學生溝通，各溝通了幾次？"],["吳司長穎沺：向委員說明一下，首先，教育部在3月召開過一個協商會議……"],["萬委員美玲：我要數字就好，其他不需要。"],["吳司長穎沺：目前在眾開講平台上廣集各方的意見，所以有一次的實體，其他則是在平台上蒐集資料，6月1日會再做……"],["萬委員美玲：所以我們總共只與學生團體做了一次的溝通，其他都是在線上蒐集資料，請問我們與教師團體溝通過嗎？"],["吳司長穎沺：報告委員，有。"],["萬委員美玲：幾次？對象？"],["吳司長穎沺：1次。"],["萬委員美玲：對象呢？"],["吳司長穎沺：就是全國的教師代表，譬如全教總、全教產。"],["萬委員美玲：幾個人？"],["吳司長穎沺：我們都是邀請他們以代表來參加，蒐整他們的意見。"],["萬委員美玲：家長團體呢？"],["吳司長穎沺：有。"],["萬委員美玲：與什麼家長團體溝通？"],["吳司長穎沺：向委員說明一下，國教盟與全家盟。"],["萬委員美玲：我想，第一個，你們的溝通次數夠不夠？談的內容有沒有辦法讓他們充分的表達？再來是蒐集的範本數夠不夠做為參考？這些都是很重要的。其次，我們看到在這個草案公布後不久就出現這麼多反彈的聲音，其中有很多是認為教育部在推諉，把這個問題丟給學校、把這個壓力丟給老師，也造成學生不開心。請問部長，無論我們現在要用哪種方式做手機的統一管理，學校方面有辦法這樣配合嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，手機的管理本來就有……"],["萬委員美玲：根據我們的草案內容，與學校做過溝通嗎？"],["吳司長穎沺：向委員說明一下，我們當時的協商會議也有找學校的行政代表，此外，就是……"],["萬委員美玲：是全國高中小學的行政代表嗎？沒有吧？"],["吳司長穎沺：我們有兩個行政的代表，此外，報告委員，就是……"],["萬委員美玲：你是說全國的高中小學只找了兩個行政代表？"],["吳司長穎沺：向委員再說明一下，我們這個辦法其實是在民國108年就開始實施……"],["萬委員美玲：好啦！好啦！你不要說明了，下去啦！","部長，我還是要重申一次，我們對於管理手機的這件事是贊成的，但怎麼管是一個重點！因為我們不是要限制他們使用手機，而是要思考如何對手機做一個妥適的使用，讓家長能放心、也讓學生能便利，但是現在你的草案看起來就是很混亂。因此，今天在此要提醒，第一個，我希望教育部能與全國各縣市的學校進行溝通，也能與教師代表進行人數更廣、更深切的溝通，當然也要與被限制的學生進行溝通。最後，各縣市也有許多家長會的代表，我認為要趕快蒐集他們的意見。","如果你們在9月就要上路，在本席看來，現在只剩下6月、7月及8月，其實在時間上是非常趕的，因此教育部可能要再思考一下。同時，在上路之後是不是能有一個試辦的機制？試辦之後如何做滾動式的檢討？針對以上這些問題，能不能在會後的一週內給我一個回復？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒！在6月1日的公聽會結束後，我們會有一個完整的……"],["萬委員美玲：既然你們都要整理，就在公聽會的一週後，好不好？謝謝。","接下來一樣要請教部長，上個禮拜有一則非常沉痛的新聞事件，在三峽北大國小旁發生了嚴重的車禍。對於新聞播放的一幕幕畫面，其實我們都不忍心再看第二次，真的很心痛！部長，你是不是去學校做過關心？該如何協助受影響的學生及家庭？目前的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心！確實當天事件發生後我就陪同總統在第一時間去醫院關心受害的學生及家屬，另外，我也與新北市的張局長保持電話聯絡，如果新北市的處理有需要教育部協助配合之處……"],["萬委員美玲：後續還有很多的事情，中央與地方要一起好好協助處理這個案子。我們看到這起車禍就是發生在學校旁邊，其實過去多年來在學校旁邊發生的大大小小車禍非常非常多，無論受傷的狀況或事件造成的後續嚴重性有多大，只要有一個孩子受傷，我們都是很不捨的，因此，對於學校周邊通行步道的關注就越來越高。","我們看到政府在111年開始推動校園周邊暨行車安全道路改善計畫，總共是50億元。本席也看了一下，執行率非常高將近97%。去年我們就接續推動永續提升人行安全計畫，113年到116年4年共400億元，由地方縣市政府的教育局提出需求，再由內政部國土署匡列260億元、交通部公路局匡列140億元協助地方執行。但是我覺得教育部在這個部分並沒有扮演任何角色，在這件事情發生之後，是不是有思考過，教育部有沒有什麼方式可以協助地方政府或地方教育局與國土署及交通部一起將這個規劃做得更好？這是第一個。","第二個，我們看到這個預算的執行，剛剛我們說過之前50億元的執行率將近97%，但是就本席自己的桃園市而言，我們桃園市這麼大、這麼多的學校，其實，第1，有很多學校不太清楚什麼樣的案子可以報上來；第2，可能有一些些縣市教育局認為好像不太符合國土署想要推動的目標。因此，教育部在這個部分有沒有辦法成立一個跨平台提供協助或資訊、資源的整合？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒！我們目前確實是有這樣一個跨部會的平台，但是委員也特別提到，通學步道如何落實到社區的上學路隊，包括讓學生在上學及放學時能更安全，事實上，我們也在前幾天的校安行政會議中特別提出，地方政府如何協助學校在上學及放學時間有更多的警力或呼籲更多的家長，因為現在家長都是在上學及放學的時間開車或騎車……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我相信各縣市政府對這個部分都會很重視、各縣市政府的教育局也都會做，但是分為兩個部分：首先，道路上的安全、道路上的設計是不是要作一些調整？關於這個調整的因應，譬如上學情況的變更不一，或者我們現在開始鼓勵讓孩子自己上學，交通狀況的不一致，現在可能都要做一個改變。其次是什麼？就是教育、就是教育！部長，你與我及很多人都參與過、支持過靖娟文教基金會關於小黃帽交通安全教育計畫，我看到部長很可愛都有去支持，對不對？但是說真的，我們在每一年支持這樣的活動之餘……部長，你知道我也是桃園市家長協會的理事長，其實我們也試著如何將它落實到地方上，並不是這一次而已，但是我認為我們在交通安全教育上要再加強。你我都在日本看過小學生過馬路只要舉起手，開車的司機都會停下來讓他們先過。今天你在教育部終身教育解凍的報告中也提到要推動交通安全的教育，是不是可以就這兩點向我說明一下，一個是議題、一個是教育？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想它真的是需要中央與地方合作，而且我們在課程上也有一個交通安全五階段的課程規劃。另外，剛才委員關心的如何針對交通安全進行更縝密的規劃，交通部也提出在學校附近的十字路口如何讓汽車能夠減速，等於是距離保留由現在可能是1、2公里變成3至6公里。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我給你一個具體的建議。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：中央與地方當然要合作，但我給你一個具體的建議，我們以更高的高度從教育部下來。第一個，我們讓政策下去，譬如孩子要過馬路的做法，既然覺得日本做得不錯，我們就統一規範，是不是孩子都可以舉起手，養成這個習慣。從部裡下去的話，也許各縣市教育局就會落實，我們就試試看，不管有沒有導護老師帶領、有沒有交通志工、義工，我們都做這個動作，甚至以前也有過小黃旗、小黃帽等等，不管是哪一種方式，我們就試試看由中央的高度下去做。我認為要去試行，而不是只有呼籲，光呼籲其實是會來不及的。","第二個，我覺得你可以用更高的高度去看，到底現在學校周邊的道路有什麼樣的大問題是大家共有的狀況？再告訴各縣市政府遇到這樣的狀況時要如何提報上來，經由剛才我說的與內政部及交通部的合作平台，大家進行一個三方平台的溝通，組成一個小組，我認為這樣做會比較好。今天提出這些建議讓部長想一想，希望能盡快地從中央的高度去重視學生的安全，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝委員的提醒！我們一定會努力。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢，官員請回座。","現在我們處理解凍專案報告11案。剛才已稍作溝通，如果有血糖的問題或需要，同仁可以先到外面用餐，但我們今天主要還是要先處理解凍專案報告。","解凍專案報告11案，請議事人員宣讀，並進行討論。","討論事項","處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍專案報告案11案。","一、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該部新增決議(三十五)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","二、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該部新增決議(四十三)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","三、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該部新增決議(四十八)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","四、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送體育署新增決議(一五六)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","五、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送體育署新增決議(一七五)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","六、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送青年發展署新增決議(一九五)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","七、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送國家圖書館新增決議(二○六)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","八、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送國立公共資訊圖書館新增決議(二○九)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","九、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送國家教育研究院新增決議(二一三)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","十、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該部決議(五)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","十一、教育部函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送青年發展署決議(二)預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。"],["主席：針對解凍專案報告案第一案，頁次在第1頁，請問各位委員有無意見？"],["林委員宜瑾：沒有。"],["主席：本席這邊做一點簡單的陳述。今天處理教育部114年度的解凍案，書面解凍的部分雖然在會議一開始就已經處理完畢，但教育部的書面報告其實完全沒有答復本席對預算案提出的問題。","針對五大信賴產業，預計4年要培育20萬AI人才，各部會到底怎麼分工？教育部負責哪個部分？預計分年度各年到底要培育多少AI人才？在另外一份書面報告的第327頁中總共只用了181個字，可以說是用一個非常簡略的說法打發全臺、甚至是全球都非常關注的問題。我想教育部這種態度其實是值得商議的，完全看不到對於AI人才的重視！更何況，依據教育部所提供的資料，近五年來教育部培育的AI人才數量不進反退，從高峰時期的一年培育二萬多人，到112學年只剩下一萬九千多人，足足少了1,500人。剛剛我聽到部會官員提出是少子化的因素，但我們不能因為少子化的問題就不關注AI人才的培育，這個產業的板塊正在移動，我想少子化只是其中一個原因，該努力的還是要努力。如果有相關的解釋就應該要做研究，並且在書面報告中提出來，但現在並沒有提出改善方案，我想教文委員會所有委員應該是不分朝野也許都難以接受這種說法及作法。","因此，針對專案解凍案的第一案，本席還是要求教育部應該針對五大信賴產業中有關AI人才培育的分工，尤其現在這個內閣又稱作AI內閣，應該要提出更詳細的書面說明，同時也針對教育部AI人才培育的數量不增反減的情況，提出完整的說明及改進的措施，況且現在也不只是不增反減的問題，還可能有供不應求的問題。請教育部就上述議題在一個月內提出完整的書面報告，以上。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝主席關心AI人才的培育！其實高教因為少子化的因素，它的比例事實上是增加的，這是第一個補充說明。第二個，去年9月就開始全國……因為我們擔心除了臺、成、清、交這些研究型大學之外，有許多學校可能沒辦法開出AI的課程，所以我們也在線上開放25個學校的學生修課，這樣學生選課的人數與人才一定會增加，以上補充。如果召委希望有一個更詳細的書面資料，我們會後再提供給主席，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長，一個月內提出完整的書面報告。其他委員還有沒有意見？沒有見的話，第一案准予動支，提報院會。","接下來處理解凍專案報告案第二案，頁次在第21頁。請問各位委員有無意見？（無）如果沒有意見的話，第二案准予動支，提報院會。","接下來處理解凍專案報告案第三案，頁次在第39頁。請問各位委員有無意見？","柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：我對這一案有一些想法。因為我們在推展一般教育的部分凍結了20%，而你在解凍報告的第43頁特別提及營養午餐的部分，我要請問教育部，說實在的，關於這一案，雖然書面報告已經完全結束，但是與前面完全都是一樣、像書面報告第十與第十三都是一樣，營養午餐法制化，教育部已經卡關五年了，我真的要利用這個機會問一下，到底什麼時候要送出版本？五年了耶！不要說是這個部分，包括在書面中大家都非常關切的大學法修法，你們已經舉辦了9場座談會及1場公聽會，到底這個又是什麼時候要提出來？都是一樣的狀況，當初說要凍結全都是因為這個理由啊！包括終身教育凍結1,200萬元也是啊！當時我們就是要檢視修正補習及教育法，對不起，部長，已經換了兩位司長，我都還沒有看到院版！這到底是行政效率的問題，還是什麼？不要每次我們在這邊凍，請大家能夠趕快提出來，特別是營養午餐法，到目前為止，都講幾次了！所以我是不是可以利用這個機會，請部長稍微告訴我們一個比較確切的時間？這攸關教育部行政效率問題！"],["彭署長富源：我跟委員報告，午餐法上一次有進行專案討論，那天也有跟委員們報告，目前因為有財劃法以及地方在整體運作面上希望能得到更大的尊重，跟它在規劃上怎麼樣互動來支持，所以剛剛部長也回應說，是不是等財劃法，也許在7、8月會比較明確。目前我們的草案也有準備，但是因為財劃法有一些影響，且地方能不能夠支應這樣一個財政支出，跟我們剛才所提到的幾個面向，像偏鄉地區，像營養師、午秘等等，這些都希望得到最大支持……"],["柯委員志恩：沒問題，聽起來好像是8月底左右，就可以看到？"],["彭署長富源：這個就是等財劃法……"],["柯委員志恩：財劃法要釋憲！"],["彭署長富源：這個如果沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：你怎麼樣說？"],["彭署長富源：我們找地方談的話，會變成標的沒有那麼明確。不過我們很樂意趕快跟地方政府就幾個重要的議題來做處理……"],["柯委員志恩：所以時間點大概會是什麼時候？"],["彭署長富源：委員，我們是不是等財劃法的明確性……當然我們也會一直籌備，它一明確，我們就馬上召開會議，大概是這樣。"],["柯委員志恩：其他呢？大學法的修法已經搞了那麼久，學生那麼在乎。"],["廖司長高賢：跟委員報告，剛才您提到的大學法公聽會的舉行，大概是在111年間，這一次在預算審查的時候，針對學生代表的比例、校務會議的運作方式以及教師聘任、停聘的一些相關建議等等，我們也有遵照委員當時的建議，分別諮詢了公私立大學的協進會，我們都有邀請來，也有邀請教師團體……"],["柯委員志恩：司長，沒問題，但我說的是時間點。"],["廖司長高賢：關於時間點的部分，因為那時候答復委員說，蒐集完意見之後，我們會把相關的意見納入條文當中……"],["柯委員志恩：儘快，好不好？"],["廖司長高賢：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝官員的答復。第三案還有沒有其他委員有提問？（無）如果沒有的話，第三案就准予動支，提報院會。","接下來處理第四案，頁次在第49頁。請問有沒有委員要提問？請陳秀寳委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：第四案有關於體育署凍結兩千萬的部分，我支持解凍，但針對校園運動教練的部分，其實不只有體育老師，還包含社團的外聘教練、體育班的專業教練等等，這些進入校園的運動教練都應該予以規範及管理。本席支持解凍，但針對校園社團外聘教練之類的管理以及體查，希望體育署可以提供一份書面說明給本席辦公室。我們希望杜絕這些大人對小孩惡意的傷害，對一般社會大眾跟家長來講，這些都應該由體育署或教育部制定出一套可以依循的規則或規範，體罰、霸凌都不應該在校園裡面出現的。以上。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來還有郭昱晴委員、柯志恩委員有意見，待會可以一併回復。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。我們經常會在新聞當中看到類似被體罰或是被霸凌的事件發生，這已經不是幾個個案而已，其實整個教育系統更需要一個比較完整的機制來保護孩子們。對於這個部分，我當然是支持解凍。但是，我們要怎麼樣來培訓老師讓他能夠有正向的輔導能力，同時在他領導的整個社團當中，有一個完善的申訴機制？也就是讓每一個學生在遇到不公平對待的時候，還是有地方、有人可以幫他，讓他有求助的管道。如果這個預算沒辦法解凍，有些制度也許我們就真的沒辦法做到，就算這個沒辦法做到，我們也不能說這個做不全，所以一定要有一個足夠的資源來對待我們的孩子，在保障孩子他們身心上一個安全的環境，其實這個部分不應該被延後。針對陳秀寳委員剛剛所講的，我們要怎麼樣提供一個更友善的環境，就這個部分請提出一個比較完整的計畫跟報告。以上。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，接下來請柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：第四案跟第五案都是體育署的，其實都一樣，我還是要強調署長剛剛回應我的，也就是各地方，對運動教練大多是用約聘的方式聘用，署長特別說了這是給地方的一種彈性。但我還是要說，像2017年在世大運標槍比賽摘金的鄭兆村，大家都知道他目前在母校桃園的瑞源國中任教；還有向俊賢是我們全國跳高紀錄保持人，現也在國訓中心，他們全都是約聘。你說這是彈性，可是我覺得你怎麼可以把這樣一個跳高人才安置在國訓中心裡面，還是用約聘的方式？國訓中心是體育署可以主導的，但他現在還是約聘人員，根本就是上層帶頭做起！明明已經法制化了，目的就是希望能夠更有保障，結果你們什麼都用約聘，他們年老的時候怎麼辦？對這部分，我覺得教育部還是要拿出更決斷的態度，否則我們即便將它法制化，法都是白修的！"],["主席：請署長說明。"],["鄭署長世忠：針對陳秀寳委員及郭昱晴委員所提到的，目前國教署已經有滿完整的制度，包括申訴、通報、教育等等的機制，體育署也會協同國教署對這個漏洞再檢討，讓它更完善，我們會再來努力。至於柯志恩委員提問的部分，其實我們也非常希望讓我們的選手能夠有全職的待遇，我們接下來會再加強督導縣市政府，同時也會來做評比，看看各個縣市政府首長對學校專任運動教練的支持，是不是能夠正面回應選手的需求，謝謝委員。"],["主席：次長要不要說明一下？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們大概十幾年前就修了專任運動教練的聘任，若符合資格，是可以比照教師占員額編制，但要學校有開缺，地方政府支持，所以我也跟署長說，像鄭兆村這樣的選手在桃園的國中當教練，我們會去跟桃園地方政府協調一下。"],["柯委員志恩：國訓中心呢？向俊賢在國訓中心。"],["鄭署長世忠：國訓中心有缺啊！"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，他還是約聘僱啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：基本上沒有犯什麼錯都會一直聘下去的啦！"],["柯委員志恩：但約聘僱就沒有退休金，這就是為什麼很多都要用約聘僱。"],["鄭署長世忠：有勞退，他有加入勞保。"],["柯委員志恩：為什麼不能給人家一個全職full time？"],["鄭署長世忠：他是full time，沒有錯啊！"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，他還是約聘僱！"],["鄭署長世忠：他只是不是公務人員而已！"],["柯委員志恩：對，但約聘僱這點對很多人來說，就是沒有保障，還是差滿多的嘛！國訓中心總是體育署可以來負責的吧。"],["鄭署長世忠：他是全職人員，沒有錯！"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道，但身分上就是不一樣。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們會跟縣市政府積極協調，像他是屬於臺中，我們會跟臺中市積極協調。"],["柯委員志恩：麻煩一下好不好？榮耀之後，還是要給人家一個餘生的保障，這是很重要的。"],["主席：我也請教一下，約聘僱是一年一約，還是它是一個長約？照你們的講法，好像約聘僱跟正職沒有差別？所以他是不是一年一約？是一年一約嘛！跟正職人員還是有差別啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：正職人員是兩年一約。"],["主席：具體一點，一年跟兩年一樣，還是不一樣？"],["鄭署長世忠：其實沒有犯錯，就是一直聘下去。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有。學校聘任何老師，像目前的這些教授，所謂的一年一聘、兩年一聘，跟全職到退休，保障是不一樣！"],["鄭署長世忠：委員，我想他們當然會期待留在公職，我會積極協調縣市政府來幫忙，因為也要縣市政府開缺，好不好？"],["主席：希望這個部分可以再研議一下。第四案還有沒有委員有意見？（無）沒有，第四案准予動友，提報院會。","接下來處理第五案，第五案的頁次在第57頁。各位委員有無意見？請劉書彬委員。"],["劉委員書彬：謝謝主席。第五案體育署補助中華民國迷你足球協會一項，在113年被踢爆有這樣子的溢領，甚至包括它的會計師查核並不清楚，在你們的報告當中也提到，它有再繳回補助款103萬等等。你們後來的回應是說，今年3月26日已經將本案移送到地檢署，還有函請內政部評估是否依照人民團體法第五十八條的規定去處理迷你足球協會有沒有功能不彰的情況，現在已經過了兩個月，所以想要請問現在地檢署的進度是怎麼樣？第二個問題是，對於內政部去評估這部分，你們有後續的最終結果嗎？甚至你們體育署未來在做補助，涉及到這次的解凍案500萬元的時候，依照你們本身內部評估，它是不是適合再繼續作為你們補助的標的？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想這個案子黃國昌委員一直很關心，其實體育署過去這一年來，我們都是按照黃委員的要求，有去做所有該執行的執行面，針對迷你足球協會進入地檢署司法我們就沒辦法去干涉，這部分地檢署應該已經在處理當中。","至於人民團體法的部分，內政部目前已經有發函給迷你足球協會請它限期改善，意思就是如果7月底以前沒有限期改善，內政部會做進一步的處理，通常按照我們過去的經驗，有可能會撤換理事長或是解散等等之類的處置，但是它並沒有講，我想這部分還是由內政部在積極處理當中。"],["劉委員書彬：那教育部……"],["鄭署長世忠：我們的部分，目前會計師的查核已經完成，我們也把報告都交給黃委員，後面追繳的部分因為目前已經發函，接下來會由執行署這邊來處理，我們都按照公部門的節奏一步一步在處理當中，我們就是按照規定來處理。"],["劉委員書彬：好，本辦也會繼續追蹤貴署這邊的處理情形。"],["鄭署長世忠：當然，我們一切都是依法行政，沒有問題。"],["劉委員書彬：好，OK。"],["主席：好，謝謝官員的回復。","第五案，還有沒有委員有意見？沒有意見的話，第五案准予動支，提報院會。","接下來處理第六案，第六案的頁次在第65頁，請問委員有無意見？"],["林委員宜瑾：沒有！"],["柯委員志恩：你是怎樣？要趕快去吃飯是吧？"],["主席：大家都很支持教育部啦！他們資料也都送來了，但我還是再確認一下，請問各位委員有無意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：如果沒有意見的話，第六案就准予動支，提報院會。","接下來處理第七案，頁次在第83頁，請問各位委員有無意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：第七案各位委員也沒有意見。好，我們處理……"],["柯委員志恩：沒意見、沒意見。"],["主席：現在已經到第八案了。"],["林委員宜瑾：第七、八、九案都一樣，都是……"],["主席：我們處理第七、八、九案，第七、八、九案各位委員有無意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["林委員宜瑾：沒有。"],["主席：沒有意見，我們准予動支，提報院會。","接下來處理第十案，頁次在139頁，請問各位委員有無意見？我們讓委員翻閱一下，我看到有些委員還在翻閱。如果確認沒有意見的話，第十案准予動支，提報院會。","接下來處理第十一案，頁次在第155頁，請問各位委員有無意見？請范雲委員發言，然後請郭昱晴委員發言。"],["范委員雲：基本上我是支持第十一案解凍，但是早上的報告事項我想在這邊一併對教育部提出一些要求。第一個，報告事項第十案關於高教的部分，剛剛柯志恩委員有問大學法，其實我也有問啦！因為最早，剛剛講的大學法公聽會其實是我們教文委員會自己辦的，如果沒有記錯的話，當時教育部的承諾好像是5月會給我們，所以想先問一下教育部那個草案的進度。","另外，也是關於第十案，一樣是高教，我要求私校產學合作涉及土地建物使用的部分應該要比照國有財產，有最低的租金跟利用費的規定，不知道教育部何時會正式公告？因為教育部說他們會處理，但還是應該有個公告，讓產學合作有一個更公平公開的規定。","再來，也是第十案，也是與高教有關的，就是大學生的居住困境，我希望高教司與內政部關於社會住宅的部分有一些合作，是不是一個月之內給我辦公室一個比較明確的進度？因為你們好像沒有在回應裡面寫到這一點。","另外，跟國教有關的是報告事項第十八案，關於高中多元選修教師鐘點費，目前我們接到很多陳情，所謂108課綱希望有選修課，有素養，可是老師們反映說開課很辛苦，都沒有一點鼓勵，所以我希望你們考慮一下，針對多元選修課，是不是能夠在課程不足的地方，譬如說能有一些鐘點費的鼓勵？如果到穩定之後，也許這個機制就不需要了，因為我自己是大學老師，我知道開新課很累，最好是開舊課，然後加一點新的就好，所以這部分應該要鼓勵，這是報告事項第十八案。","報告事項第十八案關於代理教師敘薪法規，這部分已經跟教育部溝通很多次，可是現在有學校公布114年招聘簡章的時候，還是寫不採計年資耶！明明大法官已經釋憲了，怎麼在你們要要求前，學校公布114年招聘簡章，這樣不是會讓第一線的代理教師憂慮、擔心他們不適用嗎？這部分教育部是不是也能儘快處理？還有其他的小項，我再跟你們溝通，好不好？這幾項是不是能夠回應我一下？謝謝。"],["楊司長玉惠：我先回應委員關心的產學合作，這個辦法我們法規會已經通過了，接下來的程序要提部務會議，部務會議通過就會公告實施了，所以進度會很快。"],["范委員雲：很快是3個月內還是1個月內？"],["楊司長玉惠：我們的部務會議每兩個禮拜開一次，所以下次的部務會議可以提。"],["范委員雲：好，那公告後再給我辦公室一個報告。"],["楊司長玉惠：好，再提供給委員。"],["廖司長高賢：剛才委員垂詢有關於社會住宅跟內政部的部分，我們在一個月內會提供相關書面報告給委員做參考。"],["范委員雲：好。"],["廖司長高賢：但是大學法的修法，因為委員當時也有提示我們要與各個利害關係人來溝通，其實我們也有跟學生代表，但是近期對於學生代表在邀請上面有一些困難，因為我們邀請了他們沒有出席，所以針對學生代表這部分，我會另外召開會議跟他們座談，彙整他們的意見。","針對校務會議還有教師的部分，我們也有分別跟教師團體的代表開過會，也在彙整意見當中，針對委員在預算審查時期所詢問的幾個重點，我們會把它修入到大學法的辦法當中。當時雖然有跟委員講說在情況比較好的狀況下，可能可以馬上完成，可是有一些條文有一些意見需要彙整，可能要請委員再給我們一些時間來彙整意見。"],["范委員雲：你們有沒有預計什麼時候會提出草案？"],["廖司長高賢：我們會儘快，因為確實現在有些意見，比如委員提到的四分之一學生代表，有些學校認為執行有困難，所以可能還要一些時間來凝聚共識，以上。"],["范委員雲：還是要有一個時間吧？因為你們之前講的是5月底嘛！"],["廖司長高賢：對，是，我們儘快在處理了，我們都有按照時程陸續在開會當中。"],["范委員雲：所以不能夠說一個時間？因為你一個時間跳票後，應該要說一個新時間吧！"],["柯委員志恩：對啊！應該要說一個時間。"],["廖司長高賢：委員，是不是容許我們在3個月內將意見完成？"],["范委員雲：好，3個月，就是8月底，好不好？"],["廖司長高賢：好，是，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：開議前。"],["廖司長高賢：好，謝謝。"],["彭署長富源：多元選修鐘點費的部分，之前我們就已經有行文給所有學校，高教這邊也同意，我們再把那個公文給委員。"],["范委員雲：OK。"],["彭署長富源：第二點是有關提敘的部分，6月份就會修法完成，辦法完成之後各校都會落實。現在委員看到的部分，我們再來跟他溝通，馬上就可以落實了，謝謝。"],["主席：請郭昱晴委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：第十一案我當然希望能夠解凍，青年海外圓夢計畫其實是現在非常重要的一個對外政策，這個計畫已經成功吸引將近4,000名的青年參與，這部分的解凍一定要有後續的培訓、輔導還有國際交流的活動，才能再繼續地進行，在此表達一下我的立場跟意見。我想支持青年能夠跨國，能夠更進一步地跟世界交流，其實是我們一直希望的，以上。"],["主席：請范雲委員。"],["范委員雲：抱歉，我剛剛漏掉一案，關於大家都發現性平的調查人才不足的部分，我有一個預算案，也是在書面報告裡面。關於CEDAW的委員要求教育部能夠補助性別或婦女學程設置，我知道教育部現在是有補助全國3所性別的研究所，可是如果沒有研究所的婦女研究學程，大學部的這部分我覺得也很重要，如果你們能夠直接讓這些公私立大學自己就支持這個政策是最好的，如果沒有的話，是不是能夠考慮遵照CEDAW委員的要求？因為我們有這麼多性平調查，如果沒有足夠的專業人才更深入地研究，就會出現一切合法可是調查不夠專業的問題，好不好？這部分也請你們考慮之後，再給我辦公室一個報告好嗎？"],["廖司長高賢：沒問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝范雲委員。各位委員還有無其他意見？如果沒有意見，第十一案就准予動支，提報院會。","解凍案共11案審查完竣，均准予動支，提報院會。","接著繼續進行質詢，請陳培瑜委員質詢，質詢時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24dff4eeddd8a67c941b5ee1b3bf308d2ea3426710e0a50eedb165d9c3a9e3ea845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.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請陳部長我剛才延伸我們林委員剛剛想問的"},{"start":24.232,"end":46.185,"text":"有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保因為我們只能一個保公保、勞保跟我們的農保就只能選擇一個那有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎?現在也不行不行嗎?那你剛剛說你要研議你答應靈魂要研議我不懂你要怎麼研議啊我們這樣講喔"},{"start":48.82,"end":66.413,"text":"老保如果他還是有受僱於人的話是由他們的僱主去提領嘛6%那剛才我講的就是說有一些年輕人他可能20幾歲到30歲之間他是在公司服務所以沒有錯"},{"start":67.113,"end":95.879,"text":"他原來是有在公司服務他投了勞保但是他勞保之後他又轉做我們的親農你轉做親農之後的話你就不在公司工作了嗎還是同時有在公司工作他是用職業公會那就算選擇性只能一個保嗎只能一個保嗎可以雙重保險嗎不可以對不對但是他可以加入農民職業他又投勞保來加入農民的退休儲金可以這樣子"},{"start":96.799,"end":115.857,"text":"可以修法就可以了修法對那因為我們知道說我們有公保跟勞保的部分的話可以分開計算合併給付但是你要選擇性的你第一個階段的話如果是你是勞保後來你轉做公務人員的時候你就是沒有勞保了要改成公保"},{"start":116.457,"end":135.297,"text":"被停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個但是你的年資可以繼續計算是這樣子才分開計算合併來給付但是你現在把勞保可以繼續保勞保那你又可以來申請農民的退休雛金我跟委員報告齁這樣子雙保啦不會"},{"start":136.859,"end":145.689,"text":"老保退休金老保年金他不能領老保退休金他如果來加入我們農業退出儲金的話就不能老保退休金"},{"start":151.015,"end":178.737,"text":"他可以保勞保不能領勞保退休金他可以來領農民的退休儲金法要修得清楚我也請部長到時候要講清楚不同的保險可以這樣子那當時我們是一個階段的勞保完畢下個階段是公保才可以分開計算合併給付你現在是同時有勞保又同時有農民退休這個儲金勞保對應的是農保啦他現在勞保就不能來保農保"},{"start":179.958,"end":207.033,"text":"但是他在農保的時候他沒有雇主嘛而且他是實際從事農業你的意思是說他繼續保勞保然後繼續又可以這邊申請農民的退休儲金喔所以是兩個不同的保險他一定要從事農業勞保對應的是農保然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金那他的勞保可以繼續保嗎勞保繼續保啊農民退休儲金繼續儲嗎我們可以開放他可以加入"},{"start":208.084,"end":236.509,"text":"因為他實際從事農業這裡 這裡輕容一半喔 幾乎一半喔所以他可以做兩個工作沒有你投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作他是一個職業的工會去投保嘛職業工會 你在工會上你有等於說不管你是個人的工作還是工作室還是自由業反正你有投勞保的人可以投我跟委員說明一下喔像漁會 漁業的 從事漁業的有很多是勞保的喔很多是從事勞保 就是甲類會員的部分嘛"},{"start":237.189,"end":247.079,"text":"同樣的修法講清楚因為本席今天不是問這問題只是這個延伸樓會有很多的爭議的地方我們會把它釐清會有雙保不是兩保並行會有衝突的地方我們會把它釐清一定要注意謝謝"},{"start":255.988,"end":270.953,"text":"今天我們主席特別安排了我們農民的退休儲金的部分就是因為你們的執行率不好但是早上聽到部長你特別有講到你有報告所以是母數的計算不一樣因為我們得到你們農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率"},{"start":282.577,"end":285.98,"text":"那但是你的說母數不一樣你們達成了已經49%了那不要在數字上變化我們講實質確確的來執行的工作才是重要的那不管怎麼樣講未滿65歲他們的農保人數這在這邊是大概達成的還是28.7啦將近5年的時間了那部長講說大概他的原因就是意願的問題"},{"start":309.68,"end":312.663,"text":"還有就是說他們的能力問題投不了這麼高如果說以勞基法的話我們現在是28590他如果說是10%的話要2859元那有些人攪不起嘛所以他就沒有來投入那最重要還有一個問題"},{"start":327.057,"end":349.291,"text":"就是他們那個老農津貼啊現在可以領多少錢8114元他也許說認為我8100塊夠了但是部長你們利益良善你希望他能夠一萬兩萬領多一點嘛所以希望他們的農民的這個退休儲金但是退休儲金的部分的話我們看到你的沒有達成執行率不彰的情況之下可能就是我們"},{"start":350.071,"end":369.996,"text":"提出的誘因不夠 那當然我們有提到啦 誘因要提高的話 是不是你們對等這個提撥的金額可以提高 甚至說可以1.5倍那部長說還要再研議嘛 那這個研議的話 我看你要下個月你就要提出來行政院版本了 那你研議目前討論下來 是不是願意支持這個方案"},{"start":370.376,"end":399.299,"text":"不過我想基本上委員所提的版本是1比1.5是把總額提高嘛就是農民出100我們政府出150嘛從100變成150這是一個方案那我們也提到另外一個想法就是說總額不變100對100但是過去農民交100現在只要交80或70這個我們要討論就是說他的負擔減輕了保障不變那也有可能這兩個案子可以某個程度的融合啦融合的部分這是一個部分"},{"start":400.182,"end":405.868,"text":"不管你怎麼融合農民的權益不能損失我絕對不會請你盡快提出來啦我們希望實質的來幫助農民不要讓農民覺得很辛苦的話就不耕農了因為現在青年要返鄉去雇農的話這個情況也不是很好嘛"},{"start":418.703,"end":446.335,"text":"所以我們在地方上才會成立這個青農把我們做代耕的工作不用再交給電農由青農來做青農組團來做不管是耕種或是收割青農都有專業的包括還有科技智慧的技術都有來協助我們這部分的話也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農尤其農機具這個部分就要支持他們他們有用無人機來灑農藥或是用機械來收成這部分都非常的好"},{"start":446.895,"end":471.05,"text":"我們農機的農事服務業現在推的也還不錯包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農來申請農機的服務所以除了他自己耕作以外他還服務別人所以我們農耕可以改善他的辛苦可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙這點部分的話我們也希望部長能繼續支持他們可以加強他的農機具方面好不好"},{"start":472.011,"end":497.125,"text":"好 接下來要請教的就是我們的移工的問題那現在我知道你們移工的人數有提高到2萬這2萬的話我們看看我們申請的制度上需不需要來檢討因為還很多人請不到這個農事的移工那尤其是說你們在這個小型的10人以下的跟我們的農企業的部分的話本勞跟外勞是1比1嘛對 本勞跟"},{"start":497.945,"end":515.838,"text":"移工是1比1吧一個本勞就可以請一個移工嘛對不對那食人以上的這個小型的農戶的話才會有35%這工作喔但是現在還是缺很多移工"},{"start":517.179,"end":541.769,"text":"那部長你知道這個原因嗎我想第一個 制度上有沒有問題第一個部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項有的品項有開有的品項沒開那這個部分我們會滾動檢討第二個部分就是移工請來以後不是那麼單純白天做事晚上就讓他亂跑你如果自己自營的話你就要準備他的房子還要做一些管理吃住的地方對吃住的地方所以我們現在有請"},{"start":542.709,"end":566.255,"text":"那個農會去協助變成一個外展 外展的部分那這個部分我們會加強還有一個就是移工那時候外展的部分只能在同一個縣市嘛有時候我們收割的時候是有跨縣市的從南到北所以我們在研議就是跨縣跨區跨區的部分所以很多問題就是我們遇到了我們就想辦法去解決讓農民來這個我想我們會持續來滾動檢討"},{"start":569.056,"end":591.68,"text":"OK 部長你剛剛提到了外展你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎外展的特性就是它的基數 你喜歡講基數 外展的基數是什麼沒有 它會根據你的用工的單位本身所需要的勞力的種植生產的技術所以會不一樣會用農漁會來做申請嘛用農漁會 為什麼用農漁會申請"},{"start":596.872,"end":616.281,"text":"沒有 合作社也可以啊合作社也可以那因為部長你剛才談到少了一個問題我們很多的農作是季節性的是所以如果你請這個移工的話我不需要12個月都在做事是好 也許做三個月 休三個月做三個月 休三個月有這種情形所以很多"},{"start":619.337,"end":636.569,"text":"小戶的那個農戶的話他們也許用電農幫忙耕作就可以了那現在電農工資上漲了2000塊以上他們有時候收成起來又比例上的話覺得收入不好也沒有辦法做就會影響到他們請電農的"},{"start":638.57,"end":650.923,"text":"意願所以就辦休耕就有休耕期發生那現在你有這兩個制度方面的話那因為原額的話你剛剛提了高到兩萬那這兩萬裡面的話但是你又不是實質的數量"},{"start":652.813,"end":672.068,"text":"又不是實質的數量 本席有查了一些資料齁看到你們那個 這個原額 我們第一個講到這個原額不夠還有你的制度 1對1的就是外展部分跟10人以下的部分 是1比1的方式那你如果說10人以上的部分的話 你是35%但是這原額還是不夠 遠遠還是不夠因為有些的是屬於大戶的農戶嘛"},{"start":678.052,"end":707.621,"text":"他有些的外銷的他做多的有機蔬菜或者是他有什麼水果大量要出口的他農業的一些移工就還是不夠所以制度上你必須要去做調整喔那還有說你增加到兩萬人那本期查了一些資料喔這兩萬人裡面現有的這個移工喔一萬一千兩百零五人失聯的有兩千零一十九人輸出的有三百八十五人回國的回去他們國家的回國的有一千五百三十三人"},{"start":708.261,"end":722.875,"text":"為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內他已經四年轉出會回國啦我們現在要講限職部分我們要提高到兩萬人啦我跟委員報告齁您這個資訊就是勞動部都是用累計的啦用累計的部分想回國的就扣掉了啦"},{"start":725.777,"end":754.566,"text":"必須要扣掉回頭一定會扣掉轉出也會扣掉啦是就是實際在從事農業的我們才會去算啦現在大概是一萬五千多人一萬五千多人我們核准是兩萬人嘛但是有申請然後正在申請的現在在職的啦在職大概一萬五千多人是所以後續跟委員講的這個部分包括移工的部分季節性的部分所以為什麼我們要找農會因為農會可以服務更多的不同的農作物的產業嘛所以可是"},{"start":755.086,"end":772.727,"text":"不是啊 我剛剛跟你講的制度面就是要討論到農會的部分農會如果他的員工50人他的隊長就可以申請50人但是你在這個區域裡面的話這50個人他還不夠用啊沒有 所以我要去想辦法去爭取他現在是1比3嘛想辦法變成1比2這樣的話他就可以拚得更多"},{"start":774.042,"end":790.862,"text":"有一比二 不是一比一嗎沒有 一比一是十人以下就是一比一那你比例怎麼調 你一比二怎麼調的我們希望說更多啦他可以有本勞 一個人可以顧兩個嘛所以這個還沒有公布實施吧沒有 我們這個要去爭取"},{"start":791.423,"end":797.826,"text":"所以未來你會公佈實施所以你也發現問題了所以你要做個調整對不對這樣的話他可以聘更多人那部長有發現這個問題的話趕快做調整來公佈讓我們的農民可以繼續把我們的農作物做得更好好不好農民權益一定要捍衛的好一定會支持你做調整出來盡快送來好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1210,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（12時27分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：延伸林委員剛才的問題，有勞保的人沒有辦法投農保，因為公保、勞保跟農保，我們就只能選擇一個投保，請問有勞保的人可以來申請農民退休儲金嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在不行。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在不行嘛，但你剛才答應林委員說要研議，我不懂你要怎麼研議。"],["陳部長駿季：我們這樣講，如果他的勞保是受雇於人的話，是由他的雇主去提撥6%；至於剛才我講的是，有一些年輕人可能在二十幾歲到三十歲之間是在公司服務……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有錯，他原來是在公司服務，他加入勞保，但他又轉做青農之後，就不在公司工作了嗎？還是同時有在公司工作？"],["陳部長駿季：他是用職業工會……"],["呂委員玉玲：如果是職業工會，那就要有選擇性，只能投保一個，可以雙重保險嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是……"],["呂委員玉玲：不可以，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：他是一個保險，但是他可以加入農民職業工會。"],["呂委員玉玲：他如果投勞保，然後來加入農民的退休儲金，可以這樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：修法就可以了。"],["呂委員玉玲：修法？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們知道如果有公保跟勞保的部分，是可以分開計算，合併給付，但這是有選擇性的，如果你的第一個階段是勞保，後來轉做公務人員，你就沒有勞保，要改成公保，所以要停掉一個才可以繼續另外一個，但你的年資可以繼續計算，即分開計算、合併給付。但是你現在說可以繼續保勞保，又可以申請農民的退休儲金……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：這樣子不就雙保啦？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，勞保對應……"],["呂委員玉玲：勞保有沒有勞保退休金？"],["陳部長駿季：是勞保年金，他不能領勞保退休金；他如果加入我們農業退休儲金的話，就不能勞保退休金。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以他可以保勞保，不能領勞保退休金，可以來領農民的退休儲金？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是用這樣的方式。"],["呂委員玉玲：法要修得清楚，也請部長到時候要講清楚，不同的保險可以這樣子。像我們第一個階段勞保完畢，下個階段是公保，才可以分開計算，合併給付；現在是同時有勞保，又同時有農民退休儲金……"],["陳部長駿季：勞保對應的是農保，他有勞保，就不能來保農保，但他在農保的時候沒有雇主，而且實際從事農業……"],["呂委員玉玲：你的意思是他繼續保勞保，然後又可以在這邊申請農民的退休儲金？所以是兩個不同的保險……"],["陳部長駿季：他一定要從事農業，勞保對應的是農保，然後勞工的退休儲金對應的是農民退休儲金。"],["呂委員玉玲：他的勞保可以繼續保嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：勞保繼續保。"],["呂委員玉玲：農民退休儲金繼續……"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以開放他加入，因為他實際從事農業，這裡青農幾乎一半……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以他可以做兩個工作？投勞保是不是要有勞保的工作？"],["陳部長駿季：他可以去投保職業工會。"],["呂委員玉玲：加入職業工會，等於不管是你個人的工作，還是工作室，還是自由業，反正你有投勞保的人……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，像從事漁業的人很多是投勞保的，就是甲類會員的部分，同樣的在這個部分我想……"],["呂委員玉玲：修法要講清楚，本席今天不是問這個問題，但因這個部分會延伸出很多的爭議。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會把它釐清。"],["呂委員玉玲：會有雙保，但不是兩保並行，這會有衝突的地方，所以一定要注意。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會把它釐清。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝部長。今天，主席特別安排農民退休儲金條例修正草案的審議，就是因為你們的執行力不好，但是部長早上在報告中講到，是母數的計算不一樣，問題是農業部給我們的資訊是28.7%的達成率，你說母數不一樣，你們已經達成了49%。我們不談數字上的變化，我們實質確切的來執行工作，才是重要的，不管怎麼樣講，將近五年的時間，未滿65歲的農保人數覆蓋率大概是28.7%，部長說它的原因大概就是意願的問題，還有他們的能力投不了這麼高；如果以勞基法的話，現在是28,590，10%的話，就要2,859元，有些人繳不起，所以也就沒有來投保。最重要的還有一個問題，就是他們的勞農津貼現在可以領8,110元，他也許會認為8,000塊就夠了；雖然部長立意良善，希望他們可以領農民的這個退休儲金，能夠領多一點，有一萬、兩萬；但是看到退休儲金執行率不彰的情況下，可能就是我們提出的誘因不夠。當然我們也提到誘因要提高的話，是不是你們對等提撥的金額也可以提高至1.5倍，部長說還要再研議，你們下個月就要提行政院的版本，目前討論下來，你們是不是願意支持這個方案？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，委員所提的版本是1比1.5，就是把總額提高，農民出100，政府出150，從100變成150，這是一個方案；我們的另外一個想法，就是總額不變，100對100，但過去農民交100，現在只要交80或70，還要討論，就是他的負擔減輕了，保障不變。但也有可能這兩個案子，可以有某個程度的融合。"],["呂委員玉玲：不管你怎麼融合，農民的權益不能損失……"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對不會，農民退休儲金就是保障農民的退休。"],["呂委員玉玲：還是請你們儘快提出來，我們希望實質的來幫助農民，不要讓農民覺得很辛苦，就不耕農了，因為現在青年返鄉務農的情況也不是很好，所以我們在地方上才會鼓勵由青農從事代耕的工作，不用再交給佃農，由青農組團來做，不管是耕種或者收割，青農都是有專業的，還有科技智慧的技術都能夠來協助。所以，也請部長要繼續支持我們的青農，尤其農機具的這個部分要多支持他們，他們用無人機來灑農藥或者用機械來收成，都做得非常好。"],["陳部長駿季：我們的農事服務業，現在推得也還不錯，包括您桃園那邊有很多大的專業農也來申請農機的服務，所以除了他自己耕作以外，還可以服務別人，這樣的話農地就可以共享。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們可以用科技上的一些技術跟設備來幫忙改善他們在農耕上的辛苦，希望部長在這個部分，能繼續支持他們，可以再加強農機具這方面。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來要請教的是移工問題。我知道你們在移工的人數上已提高到兩萬，但是在申請的制度上需不需要再檢討？因為還有很多人找不到農事移工，尤其是10人以下的農戶和農企業的部分，本勞跟外勞是1比1……"],["陳部長駿季：本來是1比3，我們現在降到1比1。"],["呂委員玉玲：1個本勞就可以請一個移工，對不對？10人以上的大型農戶，才有35%，1比3的比例，但現在還是缺很多移工，部長知道其中的原因嗎？制度上有沒有問題？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一部分就是移工申請來了以後的品項，有的品項有開，有的品項沒開，這個部分我們會再滾動檢討；第二部分就是移工請來了以後，不是那麼單純白天做事，晚上就讓他亂跑，如果自營的話，你就要準備他住的房子，還要做一些管理……"],["呂委員玉玲：吃住的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是吃住的地方。所以我們現在也有請農會協助，變成一個外展的部分，這部分我們會加強，還有外展的部分只能在同一個縣市，但是收割的時候，就會跨縣市的從南到北，所以我們也在研議跨縣、跨區……"],["呂委員玉玲：近距離的部分可以跨區。"],["陳部長駿季：所以很多問題遇到了，我們就想辦法去解決，這個部分我們會持續來滾動檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長剛剛提到外展，你知道外展的特性是什麼嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：外展的特性就是會隨著……"],["呂委員玉玲：你喜歡講基數，外展的基數是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：它會根據你用工的單位，本身所需要勞力種植生產的技術，所以會不一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以是由農漁會來做申請。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼由農漁會申請？"],["陳部長駿季：合作社也可以。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長剛才少談到一個問題，因為我們很多的農作是季節性的，如果我請了這個移工，我不需要他12個月都做事，也許是做3個月、休3個月，做3個月、休3個月的這種情形，所以很多小農戶由佃農幫忙耕作就可以了，現在因為佃農工資上漲至兩千塊以上，有時候收成後的收入不好，就會影響到他們請佃農的意願，於是就有休耕的情形發生。","現在有這兩個制度，在員額的部分，你剛剛提到高達兩萬，但這兩萬又不是實質的數量；本席查到一些資料，我們第一個講到的是這個員額不夠，還有你制度1對1的就是外展部分，還有10人以下的部分也是1比1的方式，如果10人以上的是35%……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在要解決的就是10人以上的……"],["呂委員玉玲：但是這員額還是遠遠不夠，因為有些屬於大農戶，有些是做外銷的，比如有機蔬菜或是有什麼水果是大量出口的，他所需要的農業移工就還是不夠，所以在制度上，你必須要去做調整。","還有你說增加到兩萬人，但本席查了資料，這兩萬人裡面，現有的移工1萬1,205人；失聯的有2,019人；轉出的有385人；回去他們國家的有1,533人，為什麼要把他們算在兩萬人以內？他都已經失聯、轉出、回國了！我們現在講的是現職部分要提高到兩萬人。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您的這個資訊，就是勞動部都是用累計的……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是你找不到的，就沒有在實質的工作上面……"],["陳部長駿季：像回國的就扣掉了。"],["呂委員玉玲：必須要扣掉！"],["陳部長駿季：回國的一定會扣掉，轉出的也會扣掉，就是實際在從事農業的，我們才會去算，現在大概是一萬五千多人，我們核准的是兩萬人，然後正在申請的，現在在職的大概一萬五千多人。所以委員講的這個部分，包括移工的部分、季節性的部分，我們後續要找農會，因為農會可以服務更多不同的農作物產業……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我剛剛跟你講的制度面，就只有討論到農會的部分，如果他的員工50人，他就可以申請50人，但是在這個區域裡面，這50個人還是不夠用……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們要想辦法去爭取，它現在是1比3，想辦法變成1比2，這樣就可以聘得更多。"],["呂委員玉玲：有1比2？不是1比1嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：10人以下就是1比1……"],["呂委員玉玲：你1比2要怎麼調？"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望可以更多，讓他的本勞可以一個人顧兩個。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這個部分還沒有公布實施吧？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們要去爭取。"],["呂委員玉玲：未來你會公布實施，所以你也發現問題，所以你要做個調整，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的話，他可以聘更多人。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長有發現這個問題的話，就趕快做調整來公布，讓農民可以繼續把農作物做得更好。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會跟勞動部研議，也請委員支持。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定會支持，你只要把調整做出來，就儘快送來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請林楚茵委員做詢答，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","現在請賴惠員委員做詢答，賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","現在請徐欣瑩委員做詢答，徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請何欣純委員做詢答、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","現在請羅明才委員做詢答，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。本日議程詢答完畢，另外擇期再繼續審查，謝謝大家。散會。","散會（12時41分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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按照這個機器來看的話因為我們馬上會有新的產品出來 而且再加上我們新開放的一些業務好啦 比10年前那個目標 至少要完成之外再加一倍啦這樣有沒有很難不難所以這個就是比10年前的目標 完成之外再加一倍至少這是你的底線"},{"start":207.81,"end":235.532,"text":"這個我不做預期我只是說過去在這一塊裡面我們還是要做市場的嘗試我只是說成長而且能夠有顯著的成長是不難的如果亞洲資產管理公司我們其實都希望什麼亞太運動中心啊亞洲什麼其實台灣喊很久但是我們自己的法規某個程度其實沒有國際化沒有辦法跟其他的城市或其他的國家做充分的競爭這才是今天要修這個法的原因嘛我已經講了沒有錯所以說我也說"},{"start":236.312,"end":252.429,"text":"可以跟委員再報告一下如果我們要變成國際化尤其是金融自由化我們必須要有相應的所謂的管理上面的調整當然 如果說委員有注意到的話如果這些細節我們放寬的規定我們單單高雄專區我們就放寬了"},{"start":253.655,"end":282.166,"text":"所以我覺得台灣其實是有機會的但是我們其實尤其在香港它黑化了以後它現在其實我們應該把這個位置搶過來那現在大部分被新加坡搶走嘛那我們順利把它搶回來確實確實我想這個是國人一致的方向啦因為我們希望讓我們的金融市場有更大的活動空間沒錯所以我希望主委你的目標要定出來這個法案修了之後十年期的目標至少要有這個宏大的願景嘛"},{"start":283.047,"end":298.462,"text":"這個願景就是接下來不管誰來當主委未來的十年大家一起努力的方向這個可能需要給我們立法院一個具體的數字好嗎好的第二個部分就是我們最近一直在討論終於看到金管會要把所謂的"},{"start":299.543,"end":317.769,"text":"融資公司將要公告在金融消費者保護法了,對吧?對,是的好,所以第一階段看起來只有14家有4大家之外的14家他們上市集團的下游4家上市集團公司,分科的子公司,對第二階段是銀行取購轉投資的相關的公司,對"},{"start":319.309,"end":341.445,"text":"第三階段是有工會的小型其他融資公司15家所以總共大概44家差不多40家左右所以你覺得我們的融資註定公司只有44家嗎其實這是一個好問題因為什麼其實我想在台灣很難有人說得出台灣融資公司有幾家因為主要是這個邊界非常不明確很多是一般的公司但他可能只是做了"},{"start":342.465,"end":355.79,"text":"融資 但是加租賃的他其實本質上不是一家所謂融資公司所以我的意思是說台灣絕對不會只有這44家在做嘛這其他的問題在於說我們現在"},{"start":358.652,"end":383.765,"text":"對能管的先管這個我同意該管的先管而且大型的我們管得到的先管但是管不到的它不等於它不存在就像我們之前的虛擬資產業者一樣所以它都在只是我們要怎麼去看待它監察院在4月的調查報告說金管會現行只有準備管理部分業者對於其他從事相同業務相同風險甚至數量更為龐大的民間融資公司沒有納管計畫"},{"start":385.806,"end":400.435,"text":"糾正了金管會所以主委這個不是我們想不管就可以不管接下來是我的問題是金融保護法它有點限制不是就說我們不是該管不管本來其實像這些它都在啊"},{"start":401.635,"end":420.504,"text":"這個由誰來管適當我想全世界管這個東西我想委員也做過研究我理解所以我們希望說有個進程你要先管這個我們沒有意見先納管沒有的部分現在還是丟給經濟部嘛各安去協商嘛我們有其他的法律在處理希望說接下去還是一樣嘛"},{"start":421.664,"end":449.162,"text":"包括台北市政府法務部統計的它的消費申訴像中租控股旗下的重信融資它歷年上都是不去參加協商也就是納了金保法能不能夠解決這些問題當然如果說按照我們的金保法裡面的規定它就被強迫了當然但金保法有一個很嚴重的問題它只有在12萬以下對業者才有去處理你這個要不要提高呢這跟委員報告"},{"start":452.372,"end":469.687,"text":"金保法還有這個特殊的簡便等同於法院判決的效力是那原來比如說我們現在提到以前的專法他如果不是這個他還沒有我想很多人在批評這件事情金保法是好的所以我沒有意見嘛我說先納管所以現在12萬你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":471.7,"end":491.948,"text":"你要不要再做這些調整這是你金管會可以做的事這是所以我們會按照時機的需求因為這畢竟是已經限縮了人民的安全利用現在隨便一個年輕人可能都借了幾十萬十二萬真的太低了沒有他有分兩個不同的類型一個是投資一個不是投資所以不是投資只是單純借錢這種買個機車的十二萬其實都太少"},{"start":498.51,"end":525.558,"text":"主委你要納金保法我沒有意見先管能管的但是這個部分要檢討如果可以的話金保法要拉高第二個部分是我們現在包括洗錢防治法我上次已經說了我們已經把融資租賃放在洗錢防治的對象那接下來還有我們要納管的所謂的虛擬資產業者還有現在可能正在成立工會的P2P業者他將來可能都是類"},{"start":526.946,"end":538.927,"text":"金融機構的金融行為所以金保法這兩個業者我們有沒有同有沒有要朝鄉管理的方案這個就剛才講說比如說講P2P好P2P是一個"},{"start":540.137,"end":562.871,"text":"如果它涉及到P2P正在進行正在存在它也存在將來也會有糾紛我想我們會按照融資公司實施的情況再來看看怎麼樣把它屬於我們這部分不是要等人家是要現在就做好預防第二個就是虛擬制裁業者他們開始做登記制了那他們的爭議有沒有到納入禁包法"},{"start":563.553,"end":580.621,"text":"現在沒有還沒有 你要不要將來把它納入呢現在我們會來在專法來處理這是另外一個問題如果他們都幾乎等同金融行為的話其實很不一樣我想Vespa裡面跟我們的金融服務是很大的不同我想這點要特別特別的強調"},{"start":581.781,"end":604.862,"text":"接下來可能都會有類似的問題所以要不要納入金保法我們會審慎來思考這個問題啦我希望給我一個方向跟目標跟我們打算怎麼樣看待他這些是一個態度問題我們現在把他納管了登錄了然後接下來呢接下來是你要很嚴格的管理但是發生糾紛了我不處理"},{"start":605.502,"end":629.419,"text":"這不是很奇怪嗎不會 它在裡面就只是它的性質跟我們的金融服務還是有點差有點不一樣所以可以我都沒有意見金管會希望你在一個月之內針對VASP業者針對P2P甚至將來的融資公司在金保法裡面的角度第二個金保法的所謂的強制力的12萬我覺得應該要有一些調整如果你今天要把它納管12萬對融資公司來說太低了"},{"start":633.161,"end":634.762,"text":"政政權委員 政政權不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時28分），謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，今天我們討論一個很重要的案子是亞太理財中心在104年推出的國際金融業務條例，今天要修正。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：當時的目標好像是要跟其他的國家來競爭，甚至搶國外到臺灣的人來臺灣買保險，到今天為止已經整整10年，所以我們要往下再延10年，這10年來，現在行政院要打造臺灣是亞太資產管理中心，這些名詞我們已經聽很久了，亞太理財中心現在是亞洲資產管理中心。主委，我們就回頭來看看前面10年的效益怎麼樣？有沒有達到金管會當時設定的目標？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個數字不會騙人。"],["黃委員珊珊：對！"],["彭主任委員金隆：OIU尤其在最近幾年績效不好，我想這也沒有錯……"],["黃委員珊珊：績效很差！應該是說這10年來我們給了這麼多優惠，好像也沒有什麼進展。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我必須講，時空不一樣啦！就像我們最近……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以未來還有10年，這10年你有什麼目標跟想法？很簡單！我們原來預估要36家，目前來了20家，達成率55%。人身保險的保費收入我們預估是30億，我們只收到1.3億；然後財產保險保費收入我們預估要6.7億，結果收到0；再保險的保費收入20億，好一點，大概11億，目標57.9。也就是說，這是10年的成績單……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：實在不好看啦！現在又是彭主委，當年是過度樂觀。時空環境不同，你覺得最大的問題出在哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛才其實很多委員也指教過了，比如說當時的目的，還有……"],["黃委員珊珊：當時希望用大陸客嘛！對不對？所以大陸客這10年就沒有了啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是其中原因之一。當然再來就是我們的商品沒有競爭力，我覺得是很關鍵點，畢竟市場……"],["黃委員珊珊：商品沒有競爭力、成本過高，所以沒有人要來，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是我們的商品其實還有很多的限制。就像我們這次就請保險局放寬了OIU的管理辦法裡面對商品的設計，我們有全新的商品……"],["黃委員珊珊：是！如果你的商品沒有競爭力、沒有吸引力，來這邊設的成本又很高，然後又沒有客人，那就不會有人來嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這次不一樣，這次我們的客人不會只瞄準一個地方……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，不能只有一個項目跟對象。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，所以我們這次是一個新的、完全全新的方向，而且我們這次的OIU不是單打獨鬥，我們這次是要跟OBU、跟OSU一起，成為OAMU。"],["黃委員珊珊：就大家一起來變成亞洲資產管理公司？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，現在我就是要您訂出您的目標，10年後我們再來看您今天所說的話，看能不能做得到、你有沒有具體設定的目標？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們過去的基期很低啦！主要是我們最近幾年……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以成長會很高？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得應該會成長很高，如果按照這個基期來看的話。因為我們馬上會有新的產品出來，再加上我們新開放的一些業務，我覺得未來……"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦！10年前那個目標至少要完成之外再加一倍啦！這樣有沒有很難？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不難。"],["黃委員珊珊：不難？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個就是比10年前的目標完成之外再加一倍，至少這是你的底線？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我不做預期。過去在這一塊裡面我們還在做市場的嘗試，我只是說成長，而且能夠有顯著的成長不難。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。什麼亞太營運中心、亞洲什麼……其實臺灣喊很久，但是我們自己的法規某個程度其實沒有國際化，沒有辦法跟其他城市或其他國家做充分的競爭，這才是今天要修這個法的原因嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是！委員講的沒有錯，所以我可以跟委員再報告一下，我們單單比如說……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果我們要變成國際化，尤其是金融自由化，我們必須在管理上面要有相應的調整。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然！如果委員有注意到的話，這些細節我們放寬的規定，單單高雄專區我們就放寬了大概超過25個相關規定。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我覺得臺灣其實是有機會的。尤其在香港黑化了以後，我們現在應該把這個位置搶過來，但現在大部分被新加坡搶走嘛！那我們是不是再把它搶回來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們在努力中。確實！我想這個是國人一致的方向啦！因為我們希望讓我們的金融市場有更大的活動空間、讓我們的國人有更多……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！所以我希望主委你的目標要訂出來。這個法案修了之後，10年期的目標，至少要有這個宏大的願景嘛！這個願景就是接下來不管誰來當主委，未來的10年大家一起努力的方向。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我同意，這個是……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個可能需要給我們立法院一個具體的數字，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分就是，我們最近一直在討論，終於看到金管會將要把所謂的融資公司公告在金融消費者保護法了，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。所以第一階段看起來只有14家，有4大家之外的14家上市集團的下游。"],["彭主任委員金隆：4家上市櫃公司跟它的子公司。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二階段是銀行轉投資，13家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，金融機構轉投資相關的公司。"],["黃委員珊珊：第三階段是有工會的小型其他融資公司15家，所以總共大概44家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：差不多40家左右。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，你覺得我們的融資租賃公司只有44家嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這是一個好問題。我想在臺灣，很難有人說得出臺灣融資公司有幾家。"],["黃委員珊珊：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為主要是邊界非常不明確，很多是一般的公司，但它可能只是做了……"],["黃委員珊珊：融資，但是加租賃的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：可能做了比如說應收帳款的買賣。"],["黃委員珊珊：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實本質上它不是一家所謂的融資公司。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是說，臺灣絕對不會只有這44家在做嘛！這其他的問題在於說，我們現在能管的先管，這個我同意。該管的先管，而且大型的我們管得到的先管，但是管不到的不等於它不存在，就像我們之前的虛擬資產業者一樣。所以它都在，只是我們要怎麼去看待它。","監察院在4月的調查報告說，金管會現行只有準備管理部分業者，對於其他從事相同業務、相同風險，甚至數量更為龐大的民間融資公司沒有納管計畫，糾正了金管會。主委，所以這個不是我們想不管就可以不管。接下來我的問題是，金保法有一定限制……"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是！我們不是該管不管，本來其實這些……"],["黃委員珊珊：它都在啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個由誰來管才適當？全世界管這個東西，我想委員也做過研究……"],["黃委員珊珊：我理解，所以我們希望有個進程……"],["彭主任委員金隆：像比如日本它……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要先管這個，我們也沒有意見，先納管；沒有的部分，現在還是丟給經濟部嘛！個案去協商嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有其他的法律在處理，比如日本……"],["黃委員珊珊：希望接下去還是一樣嘛！包括臺北市政府、法務部統計的，它的消費申訴，像中租控股旗下的仲信融資歷年都是不去參加協商。也就是納了金保法，能不能夠解決這些問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然如果按照我們金保法裡面的規定……"],["黃委員珊珊：它就被強迫了嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然！"],["黃委員珊珊：但金保法有一個很嚴重的問題，它只有在12萬以下對業者才有拘束力，你這個要不要提高呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，金保法還有特殊、簡便、等同於法院判決的效力。原來比如說我們現在提到以前的專法，如果不是這個，它還沒有。我想很多人在批評這件事情的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，金保法是好的，所以我沒有意見嘛！我說先納管。所以現在12萬你覺得合理嗎？你要不要再做這些調整？這是你金管會可以做的事啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會按照實際的需求，因為這畢竟是已經限縮人民的權利義務。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為現在一個年輕人可能借都借了幾十萬，12萬真的太低了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，它有分兩個不同的類型，一個是……"],["黃委員珊珊：一個是投資，一個不是投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以不是投資，只是單純借錢，這種買個機車的12萬其實都太少。主委，我的意思是說，你要納金保法我沒有意見，先管能管的，但是這個部分要檢討。如果可以的話，金保法要拉高。","第二個部分是，我們現在包括洗錢防制法，我上次已經說了，我們已經把融資租賃放在洗錢防制的對象，接下來還有我們要納管的虛擬資產VASP業者，還有現在可能正在成立工會的P2P業者，它將來可能都是類金融機構的金融行為。所以金保法，這兩個業者我們有沒有要朝向管理的方案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如講P2P好了，P2P如果涉及到……"],["黃委員珊珊：P2P正在進行，正在存在，它也存在，將來也會有糾紛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我知道。我想我們會按照融資公司實施的情況，再來看看怎麼樣把它屬於我們這部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，不是要等人家，是要現在就做好預防。第二個，虛擬資產業者他們開始做登記制了，那他們的爭議有沒有要納入金保法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：還沒有？你將來要不要把它納入呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們未來在專法處理，這是另外一個問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他們都幾乎等同金融行為的話，某個程度……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實很不一樣。VASP裡面跟我們的金融服務是很大的不同，我想這點要特別特別地強調。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。接下來可能都會有類似的問題，所以要不要納入金保法，我希望主委和金管會這邊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會審慎來思考這個問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望給我一個方向跟目標，以及我們打算怎麼樣看待它。這些是一個態度問題，我們現在把它納管了、登錄了，然後接下來呢？接下來是你要很嚴格地管理，但是發生糾紛卻不處理，這不是很奇怪嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會！它在裡面就有這些，只是它的性質跟我們的金融服務還是有點差別。"],["黃委員珊珊：有點不一樣？所以可以！我都沒有意見，希望金管會在一個月之內，針對VASP業者、針對P2P，甚至將來的融資公司，在金保法裡面的角度，提出一份說明；第二個，金保法所謂強制力的12萬，我覺得應該要有一些調整。如果你今天要把它納管，12萬對融資租賃公司來說太低了，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們會通盤檢討後再跟委員報告，謝謝！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，一個月內給我一份說明，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本日會議作如下決議：一、說明跟詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊者，請相關部會在一週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。三、委員林楚茵、廖先翔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。四、國際金融業務條例部分條文修正草案等8案、證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案等9案，另擇期繼續審查。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 2 案、\n(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅\n廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」\n等6案；二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳\n濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部\n分條文修正草案」等 4 案、 ( 二 ) 本院委員林楚茵等 17 人、委員王鴻薇等 19 人、委員郭國文等 18\n人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等\n4案、(三)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條\n條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145401_00006"}}},{"id":"162040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b075f6290a57a309e795f59f7b69f6aea3426710e0a50eed89bdc5088dcae9335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:32:00 - 12:37:49","影片長度":"00:05:49","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T12:32:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:37:49+08:00","duration":349,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.76034375,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.734718750000001,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.084093750000001,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.34096875,"end":110.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.83221875000001,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.56471875000001,"end":122.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.82596875,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.96659375000002,"end":223.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.82721875000001,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.73409375000003,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.35346875000002,"end":255.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.39346875,"end":245.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.65346875000003,"end":273.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.58721875000003,"end":327.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.19534375,"end":298.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.25409375000004,"end":344.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.53409375,"end":348.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.93471875,"end":347.99346875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.766,"end":6.609,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請部長來請邱部長委員好好部長好因為這個推專法其實大家都非常期待那其實早上提案說明的時候我已經有強調我的重點了除了這個保母的祭典制大家比較有共識之外當然我希望真的審查的時候這個保母祭典制大家可以盡快的通過了"},{"start":26.57,"end":47.59,"text":"那除了保姆祭典制我也要講一下就是這個借殼上市甚至可以說他是借屍還魂的這種機構到底要怎麼處理我不知道早上我說完提案說明之後我們衛福部是不是已經心裡有底其實在此之前我也都跟衛福部有私下先做過了解就是這種到底要怎麼樣在法律中"},{"start":48.551,"end":62.768,"text":"補起這個漏洞這件事情真的非常重要那我還是再簡單說明一下這樣子的樣態他們違法樣態到底是什麼因為其實我五年前在高雄市就已經處理過了那當時這個陽性的負責人他就是自己"},{"start":63.588,"end":90.039,"text":"涉及虐嬰那當時這個機構當然立刻把他廢止了然後這個負責人也不可以再執業了可是呢過了五年他重啟爐灶藉殼上市之外他是直接請他的先生去申請擔任這個負責人然後我其實私下問過我們地方的社會局說這不就是當初那個太太已經是明顯有虐嬰甚至是你沒給他廢止了嗎怎麼這個時候又發照給他"},{"start":91.94,"end":110.281,"text":"然后他跟我说没办法与法无惧啊法律上没有任何的依据可以阻止他去申请这个设立所以他们虽然知道说有风险但他们还是发照给他了也就是说五年之后这个托孕机构他又在原址哦"},{"start":111.002,"end":122.611,"text":"重新開業結果這個負責人他偷偷跟人家借名字在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒結果五年後又有一批家長出來爆料說哇他又虐嬰了"},{"start":124.238,"end":141.099,"text":"怎么办他就说他们还是会去法律处理处理什么伪造文书因为他实质是借别人的名字在行托育之实结果他变成只能用这种伪造文书的方式去处理这个实质在行虐因二度虐因的这个负责人"},{"start":142.04,"end":162.869,"text":"那這種該怎麼辦呢所以在我的版本裡面其實從事前防堵事中的監管到事後的懲罰我都有列在裡面當然這可能會有一點爭議爭議在於說你不能去傷害到無辜的人就例如說他先生沒有虐因啊是他太太虐因可是他先生開了這個機構為什麼不行"},{"start":165.35,"end":192.168,"text":"这就是我们要很细致的处理说那明明知道他是有风险的可不可以事前审核的时候有一些让他可以裁罚或者是说设立的标准以及你即便真的因为你不能影响人家的自由他先生是没有这样子的前科的那你发照给他之后他开立了但他的太太不能出现在这个园区他明明就是有虐婴之时的人有前科的"},{"start":192.788,"end":211.237,"text":"那這種他應該就要讓我們地方社會局有機會去加強去監管所以以上這就是我在這一次修法裡面很細緻的想要把它放進去的條文那我在這邊就是請教部長的意見對於這樣子的樣態你們有沒有去了解過因為我發完之後"},{"start":212.057,"end":224.022,"text":"一堆家長來跟我說 欸其實不只高雄欸什麼台中也有 台南也有全台灣這種藉口上市的拖音機構但是過去有不良記錄的多的是那這種樣態大概怎麼辦"},{"start":225.785,"end":247.254,"text":"所以我想委員提出這些訴求真的是比較精緻化而且比較公平啦不會說有些人沒有這樣子不能做但是絕對不能借和尚事或者是借私還魂都做一樣的事我想這個我們要精細的來規範在法律上能夠做一點處理我想這樣才是法的一個用意"},{"start":255.714,"end":273.454,"text":"那是不是請比較有進行這個條文相關業務的人可以說明一下就是你們對於這樣樣態的了解的程度以及接下來如果我們接下來討論修法的這些文字的話是不是就是可以叫我的版本或是你們有什麼建議"},{"start":274.836,"end":304.111,"text":"跟委員報告其實在這樣的一個問題上面其實怎麼樣去精準的限制這樣的一方面精準的限制藉口上市但是同時同樣的困擾就是怎麼樣去避免傷及無辜那這邊怎麼樣去平衡其他中間最困難的一個點是實質去認定前後的例如說申請的經營者他中間有實質上的關聯那這個在行政上的時候這個是目前上我們碰到最大的一個需要突破的地方"},{"start":304.651,"end":326.161,"text":"那這個後面在討論的時候目前我們所查證到相關的法規裡面我們所知道好像只有在健保在做特約的時候有一些類似的規定但是這個同樣也面臨到這個規定定下去之後會不會有傷及無辜的問題這邊其實確實是有一個兩難的狀況那所以他需要一個比較細緻的討論"},{"start":327.321,"end":345.366,"text":"所以這個要拜託你們因為接下來就要進到實質審查了嘛這個托育專法大家是有時程壓力的那在此是不是可以直接拜託部長我們請同仁回去把這個細節的條文最好你們也提一個版本到時候跟我的一起對照來討論這樣好不好好的應該的好謝謝部長謝謝拜託"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1741,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時32分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。對於托育專法，其實大家都非常期待，在早上提案說明的時候，我也已經強調我的重點了。除了保母記點制大家比較有共識之外，我也希望在真正審查的時候，保母記點制大家可以儘快通過。除了保母記點制，我也要講一下借殼上市，甚至可以說是借屍還魂這種機構到底要怎麼處理，不知道在我早上做完提案說明之後，衛福部是不是已經心裡有底。","在此之前，我也先跟衛福部私下做過了解到底要怎麼樣在法律中補起這個漏洞。這件事情真的非常重要，我還是再簡單說明一下這樣的違法樣態到底是什麼。其實我5年前在高雄市就已經處理過了，當時這名楊姓負責人自己涉及虐嬰，該機構當然立刻被廢止了，這名負責人也不可以再執業。可是過了5年，她重起爐灶，除了借殼上市之外，還直接請她的先生申請擔任負責人。其實我私下問過地方的社會局，這不就是當初那位太太，她已經明顯虐嬰、甚至你們已經廢止營業，怎麼這個時候又發照給她？社會局跟我說沒辦法，於法無據啊！法律上沒有任何依據可以阻止她申請設立。所以他們雖然知道有風險，但還是發照給她了，也就是說，5年之後，這個托嬰機構又在原址重新開業。這個負責人還偷偷跟他人借名字，在裡面繼續照顧嬰兒，結果5年後又有一批家長出面爆料，哇！她又虐嬰了。那怎麼辦？地方說還是會照法律處理啊！至於處理什麼？偽造文書，因為她實質上是借別人的名字行托育之實嘛！結果只能用偽造文書方式處理這種實質再行虐嬰、二度虐嬰的負責人，這種情況該怎麼辦呢？所以在我的版本裡面，從事前防堵、事中監管到事後懲罰都列在裡面。當然可能會有一點爭議，爭議在於不能傷害無辜的人，例如她先生沒有虐嬰，而是太太虐嬰。可是她的先生開了這個機構，為什麼不行？那我們要很細緻地處理，明明知道是有風險的，那可不可以在事前審核的時候就設定一些可裁罰項目或設立標準？即便真的不能影響人家的自由，例如她先生沒有這樣的前科，因此發照給他、他也開立機構了，但他的太太也不能出現在這個園區啊！因為她明明就是有虐嬰之實的人、是有前科的，這種對象就應該讓地方社會局有機會加強監管。","以上是我在這次修法裡面很想放進去、很細緻的條文，我就在這邊請教部長的意見，對於這樣的樣態，你們有沒有去了解過？我揭發完之後，又有一堆家長跟我說其實不只高雄，臺中也有、臺南也有，全臺灣這種借殼上市的托嬰機構、且過去有不良紀錄者多的是，這種樣態到底該怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。委員所提出這些訴求真的比較精緻化，而且比較公平，也就是說有些人沒有這樣，就不會不能做……但是也絕對不能借殼上市或借屍還魂，也就是做的都是一樣的、同樣由這些違規的人照顧。這些我們要精細地規範、在法律上要能做一點處理，我想這才是法的用意。"],["黃委員捷：那是不是可以請進行條文相關業務的人說明一下你們對於這些樣態了解的程度，以及接下來如果討論修法文字的話是不是可以照我的版本，或者你們有什麼建議？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告。其實在這樣的問題上，除了怎麼樣精準地限制借殼上市，同時也困擾怎麼樣避免傷及無辜。要怎樣平衡，其實最困難的點是實質認定，例如前後申請的經營者之間是否具有實質上的關聯，這是我們目前在行政上所碰到最需要突破的地方。至於後面討論，在我們目前所查證到的相關法規裡面，好像只在健保特約上有一些類似規定，但同樣面臨規定制定下去之後會不會傷及無辜的問題，這邊確實有兩難的狀況，所以需要比較細緻的討論。"],["黃委員捷：所以這點要拜託你們，因為接下來就要進入實質審查了。對於這項托育專法，大家是有時程壓力的，在此是不是可以直接拜託部長，請同仁回去之後研究這些細緻的條文，最好你們也提版本，到時候跟我的一起對照討論，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，應該的。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長，拜託喔！"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24650c168afa6ba694e795f59f7b69f6aea3426710e0a50eedf1fcc3062aedd04a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:21:32 - 12:31:54","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T12:21:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:31:54+08:00","duration":622,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.95409375,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.41346875,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.10471875,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.121593750000002,"end":14.138468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.46284375,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.52534375,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.10596875,"end":91.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.50659375000001,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.89846875,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.38784375,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.96471875,"end":100.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.85909375,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.97721875,"end":142.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.98909375000001,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.46971875000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.12159375,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.28284375,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.05034375,"end":168.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.56159375000001,"end":179.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.93534375000002,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.20721875,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.64909375000002,"end":204.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.93971875000003,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.72409375,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.04784375000003,"end":224.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.46409375000002,"end":246.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.64221875,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.70971875,"end":247.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.22846875000002,"end":248.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.66159375,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.51784375,"end":261.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.36096875000004,"end":266.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.57596875,"end":273.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.58409375,"end":268.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.67221875,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.96721875000003,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.06409375000004,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.59096875,"end":279.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.59096875,"end":281.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.41284375000004,"end":285.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.33221875000004,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.83409375,"end":289.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.82096875,"end":295.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.63471875000005,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.96784375000004,"end":296.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.69346875,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.76096875,"end":296.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.14909375,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.46971875,"end":300.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","st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部長 近兩年我們的兒孽事件其實平凡 非常的平凡這一位我們在法律面跟制度面我們沒有辦法把我們社安網建置得更完整所以我前一陣子 前幾天 上個星期我在司法法治委員會有提出來幾個問題點 就是說未來我們如何發揮事前的預防兒孽還有事中"},{"start":42.142,"end":60.799,"text":"我們如何及早的發現還有包括事後我們如何嚴懲不罰我覺得在這三項這三個層面上政府跨部會我們應該有更多具體的做法包括兒童權利公約也要求政府要保護兒少不受任何形式身心暴力的影響跟傷害我要請問部長"},{"start":64.562,"end":91.669,"text":"就是說對於這兩年我們常常在媒體上看到兒女的事件你對於目前跨部會整體制度你覺得兒少的保護你敢不敢打分數謝謝委員尤其是經費委員對兒少保護的一個關心那我想這幾年來的確跨部會都一直在合作努力在做這件事情部長那我請旁邊的國營委員你到底給兒少制度保護你現在打幾分"},{"start":92.429,"end":106.683,"text":"包委員我們這個永遠不可能完美而且還有很多我們一定要來精進改進你不能每次都跟我說發生一個兒童事件你每一次都回答我同樣的問題我們不進則是退我們現在變成兒童的保護是一直在鬥退路所以我剛才提出來是前是終是後我們到底該做什麼"},{"start":114.631,"end":124.654,"text":"包括我們今天法案的草案的討論我們看到兒童保護的件數從110年起到113年每一年逐年增加包括在托育的場域每一年的數字也是在增加所以當父母當媒體社會大眾在討論這些問題的時候我們有權利的人我們在法制面應該做更完整的人我們長期在喊社安網要做得更好的人我們到底做了什麼所以我才說"},{"start":143.32,"end":143.883,"text":"我們這樣分數是不及格的"},{"start":146.287,"end":158.135,"text":"對於所有社會大眾來講我們是不進則退 我們是逗退盧所以在上個禮拜司法法治公聽會當中我提出五項建議包括我們應該要成立兒少的保護專責部會包括兒少保護的業務應該有專責的公務人員我很不喜歡尖人東尖人一個 西尖人一個這會變成沒有一樣的業務做得好我想部長應該同意我的說法"},{"start":174.306,"end":197.475,"text":"第三個就是說我們目前還沒有在專責單位之前我們的社安網到底怎麼樣補足會不會在還沒成立之前有漏洞啊我們照顧兒童社安網不應該有任何閒置的時候就是不應該有任何漏洞跟空間我想你一定同意我的說法部長我也聽到院長 卓院長承諾說未來要規劃成立兒少保護的專責單位我們到底有沒有時間表"},{"start":203.437,"end":223.864,"text":"有沒有 行政院部長有對話想還是市長你要回應我報告委員我想這個部分行政院是很重視所以一直在有在看整合時間表是什麼時候還是誰可以回應我部長我不要求你因為下面應該是有專責人還是誰可以回應我有沒有專責人有沒有時間表"},{"start":226.285,"end":245.519,"text":"專責單位很重要如果對於兒少的保護永遠是堅韌我覺得很多事情都沒有辦法做得很好雖然這些事情是重要的但是我們剛剛看到那個數字是越來越多兒少的兒孽的事件數開案數包括兒少的保護個案件數在托育的場所裡面數字都是增加的"},{"start":246.787,"end":255.731,"text":"我們現在還有兒童是越來越少我們重點是值如何照顧得更好部長我不是在跟你吵架我是看這個數字我很心急好 是的我想所以時間 有沒有時間表那因為這牽涉到"},{"start":264.42,"end":289.54,"text":"主持的改造主持編制要調整所以我才問你說 你是要三年還是五年沒關係你都知道三年五年中間還沒成立之前這個空窗期我們怎麼辦這個是我要問你的問題啊我覺得應該最近就有具體的一個成果會呈現所以下個會期要送主持調整嗎還是說明年還是後年"},{"start":290.851,"end":299.496,"text":"我們希望不要到明年後年以後啦下個會期就要送進來組織調整所以下個會期就要成立專責單位我們很積極在把所有的各 譬如說我們衛護部就有七八個單位都有負責兒童嘛那這總之中間怎麼樣但是我們也不是過兒童你剛才調的也是過的長照我今天問題很多啦所以你今天回答我的就是下個會期你們就要做組織的編制的調整"},{"start":320.441,"end":347.061,"text":"我們現在已經在處理了已經在處理 下個會期要想辦法送進來我們會盡力啦你如果沒給下面的一個時間表要拖到明年可能我都還看不到咧所以你自己給你自己單位部會的時間要求是什麼你做事情總是這樣嘛你做部長你總是說我明年要求你們送出來他才會去調整那個時間你一直不給時間我們克服一些困難來努力應該希望下個會期有"},{"start":348.683,"end":377.862,"text":"目標是下個會議部長謝謝你的回應我接下來問因為現在兒童兒少的保護民間的倡議的政策跟衛福部的回應有相當的落差包括我們要成立兒女專職的社工還有建制仿試員提升辨識的能力這三項都是重要的但是我們衛福部的回應是加爆法我們已經有成立專業能源還有包括仿試員你回應的對照是說我們已經有專責醫生"},{"start":378.903,"end":394.069,"text":"我們知道專責醫生他有專職醫生的專責幼兒的專責醫師的照護制度他有一定的功能在訪視員是對於中高的脆弱家庭他平常去看他可以看到一些問題那專責醫生是"},{"start":396.91,"end":402.653,"text":"她有到醫院去 她有到診所去 她才看到問題所以我們現在衛福部對於兒少保護包括民間倡議團體他們的要求我覺得我們是 我們沒有在對等的衛接上對話而且我們是雞同鴨講"},{"start":417.44,"end":422.444,"text":"那第三個包括提升辨識能力你們回答說我們已經規定相應的訓練課程沒錯我們現在有對應的相應課程我們現在提升兒女的辨識能力我們有社工的訓練計畫第一年就是要上完19個小時那在第一年受訓完之後我們每一年要再回來上課20個小時但是這個計畫8年過去了我們的兒女的"},{"start":443.478,"end":455.688,"text":"狀況漏接的事件還是頻傳所以我才提到說我們提升辨識能力這一項應該想辦法再精進提升這個是第三點民團倡議的這些問題我覺得我們應該對準聚焦我們才有辦法未來專責單位成立的時候真正解決我們的問題你提到說我們有專責醫生制度"},{"start":466.636,"end":482.615,"text":"他要的是我們見識更多的訪視員的去做一些管理對個案高風險群或中風險群有機會脆弱家庭我們有一些資訊在手上這跟專責醫生制度是不一樣的我想部長你應該聽得懂我的意思"},{"start":484.022,"end":504.875,"text":"所以我覺得這是重點啦我們對兒少保護我們都非常關心我們都希望可以有更多具體的做法不要漏接任何一個孩子所以我今天提出來這些建議我希望部長進速的還沒成立專責單位之前可不可以在兩個月之內回應我等於回應所有民間團體怎麼樣去處理這個問題好我最後30秒"},{"start":507.677,"end":519.829,"text":"部長之前你我都在當立法委員在同一個未還委員會的時候我們提出來額略事件我們要求就是說要把雲端的這些攝影及時的一些相關的記錄可以上傳"},{"start":523.092,"end":542.373,"text":"那現在我們在這次修法當中影像上傳我們終於入法這件事情我是給予肯定的但是我要提問一個問題就是說未來影像上傳的一些資料的儲存未來我們到底會採定時上傳方式還是即時串流的監控這兩個事情是不一樣的喔部長"},{"start":543.434,"end":565.859,"text":"上傳是我所有的幼兒診所 幼兒場域我所有的影片都上傳我們不一定會及時看到一些問題但是我如果有及時串流有專責人10個人20個人30個人在觀看我抽看抽看所有的幼兒場域這些他可能會在照顧的部分更謹慎小心或自己的內控"},{"start":567.139,"end":594.769,"text":"更完整所以我要請問部長您現在你們內部想做的做法到底是採定時上傳方式還是即時串流的監控方式來去做後續的處理好謝謝我想理事回答一下報告委員我們現在本部我們現在目前所採取的是定時是定時上傳的方式那我就要提醒你定時上傳還是有它的漏洞在都是發生問題的時候再調照片回來看調影片回來看"},{"start":595.769,"end":618.256,"text":"這跟家長的期待還是有一點落差那這個部分怎麼樣去補足我希望你們去做思考我站在一個母親的立場我們希望每一個孩子值得照顧的好所以我提醒你們這件事情後續怎麼樣去補足我當然希望是串流但是怎麼去做我希望你們去思考一下 謝謝非常感謝李委員 謝謝謝謝李委員的詢問 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1688,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時21分）感謝召委。我是不是可以請邱部長？"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長好！部長，近兩年我們的兒虐事件其實非常的頻繁，這意味著我們在法律面跟制度面沒有辦法把社安網建置得更完整，所以我上個星期特別在司法及法制委員會提出來幾個問題點，就是未來我們如何發揮事前預防兒虐、還有事中如何及早發現、還有包括事後如何嚴懲不法，我覺得在這三項、這三個層面上政府跨部會應該有更多具體的做法，包括兒童權利公約也要求政府要保護兒少不受任何形式身心暴力的影響跟傷害，我要請問部長，這兩年我們常常在媒體上看到兒虐事件，對於目前跨部會整體制度兒少的保護你覺得你敢不敢打分數？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，尤其敬佩委員對兒少保護的關心，我想這幾年來的確跨部會都一直在合作，努力在做這件事。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，那我請旁邊回應我……"],["邱部長泰源：好，呂次來。"],["李委員彥秀：你到底給現在的兒少保護制度打幾分？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們這個永遠不可能完美，而且還有很多我們一定要來精進改進。"],["李委員彥秀：你不能每次都跟我這樣說，發生一個兒虐的事件你每一次都回答我同樣的問題，我們不進則是退喔！"],["呂次長建德：對，當然。"],["李委員彥秀：我們現在變成兒少的保護制一直在倒退嚕，所以我剛才提出來事前、事中、事後……"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：我們到底該做什麼？包括今天法案草案的討論，我們看到兒少保護事件數從110年起到113年每一年逐年增加，包括在托育場域每一年的數字也是在增加，所以當父母、當媒體、社會大眾在討論這些問題的時候，我們有權力的人、我們在法制面應該做更完整的人、我們長期在喊社安網要做得更好的人，我們到底做了什麼？所以我才說我們這樣的分數是不及格的，對於所有社會大眾來講，我們是不進則退，我們是「倒退攄」！所以在上個禮拜司法及法制委員會的公聽會中我提出5項建議，包括我們應該要成立兒少保護的專責部會，包括兒少保護的業務應該有專責的公務人員，我很不喜歡兼任，東兼任一個、西兼任一個，這會變成沒有一樣業務做得好，我想部長應該同意我的說法。","第三個就是我們目前還沒有專責單位之前，我們的社安網到底要怎麼樣補足？會不會在還沒成立之前有漏洞啊？我們照顧兒童，社安網不應該有任何閒置的時候，就是不應該有任何漏洞跟空間，我想你一定同意我的說法。部長，我也聽到卓院長承諾未來要規劃成立兒少保護的專責單位，我們到底有沒有時間表？有沒有？行政院有討論過嗎？部長有對外講，還是次長要回應我？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想這個部分行政院是很重視，所以一直有在整合，因為……"],["李委員彥秀：時間表是什麼時候？還是誰可以回應我？部長我不要求你，因為下面應該是有專責的人，還是誰可以回應我？有沒有時間表？專責單位很重要，如果對於兒少的保護永遠是兼任，我覺得很多事情都沒有辦法做得很好，既然這件事情是重要的，但是我們剛剛看到那個數字是越來越多，兒少兒虐的事件數、開案數，包括兒少保護案件數、在托育的場所裡面，數字都是增加的耶！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員……"],["李委員彥秀：我們現在兒童是越來越少，我們重點是質要如何照顧得更好，部長，我不是在跟你吵架，我是看這個數字我很心急。"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的，我想成立專責單位是大家的那個……"],["李委員彥秀：所以有沒有時間表？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這牽涉到組織的改造。"],["李委員彥秀：對，組織編制要調整，所以我才問你是要3年還是5年？沒關係，你說清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：不是、不是……"],["李委員彥秀：3年、5年，中間還沒成立之前這個空窗期我們怎麼辦？這個是我要問你的問題。"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得應該最近就有具體的一個成果會呈現。"],["李委員彥秀：所以下個會期要送組織調整案嗎？還是明年？還是後年？"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望不要到明年、後年以後。"],["李委員彥秀：下個會期就要送組織調整案進來？所以下個會期就要成立專責單位？"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在已經很積極在把所有的，譬如我們衛福部就有七、八個單位都有負責兒童，這中間怎麼樣……但是我們不是只顧兒童，調的時候也是要兼顧長照、老人……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我今天問題很多，所以你今天回答我的就是下個會期你們就要做組織編制的調整，然後……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在已經在處理了，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：已經在處理，那下個會期要想辦法送進來。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會盡力，盡力啦！"],["李委員彥秀：你如果沒給下面的人一個時間表，那拖到明年可能我都還看不到咧，所以你自己給你自己部會單位的時間要求是什麼？做事情總是這樣嘛，你做部長，你總是要說：我要求明年你們送出來。他才會去調整那個時間，你一直不給時間，他們就會不知道呀！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會克服一些困難來努力，但是應該希望下個會期有……"],["李委員彥秀：目標是下個會期？好，部長，謝謝你的回應。我接下來問，因為現在兒少保護民間倡議的政策跟衛福部的回應有相當的落差，包括我們要成立兒虐專職社工、還有建置訪視員、還有提升辨識能力，這三項都是重要的，但是衛福部的回應是：家暴法我們已經有成立專業人員。還有包括訪視員，你的回應是說我們已經有專責醫生。我們知道幼兒的專責醫師的照護制度有一定的功能在，訪視員透過平常去看中高脆弱家庭，可以看到一些問題，但專責醫生要去了醫院、診所才會看到問題。所以我覺得現在衛福部面對民間倡議團體對兒少保護的要求時沒有在對等的位階上對話，而且雞同鴨講。","第三是提升辨識能力，你們的回答是已經規定相應訓練課程。沒錯，現在有對應的相應課程，對於提升兒虐辨識能力也有社工訓練計畫，第一年就是要上完19個小時，第一年受訓完之後，每一年還要回來上課20個小時，但是這個計畫8年過去了，兒虐狀況漏接事件還是頻傳，所以我才提到提升辨識能力這一項應該想辦法再精進、提升，這是第三點。對於民團倡議的問題，我們應該對準、聚焦，未來專責單位成立的時候才有辦法真正解決問題。你提到我們有專責醫生制度，但他們要的是建置更多訪視員去做管理，對於個案、包含高風險群或中風險群等有機會成為脆弱家庭者，能有一些資訊在手上，這跟專責醫生制度是不一樣的。我想部長應該聽得懂我的意思。我覺得這是重點啦！","我們對於兒少保護都非常關心、都希望可以有更多具體法，不要漏接任何一個孩子，所以我今天提出這些建議，希望部長儘速、在還沒成立專責單位之前處理。可不可以在2個月之內回應我，也等於回應所有民間團體要怎麼處理這個問題？","最後30秒，部長，之前你我都在當立法委員、也同在衛環委員會的時候，我提出要求，將兒虐事件的雲端攝影等相關即時紀錄上傳，在這次修法當中，影像上傳終於入法，這件事情我是給予肯定的。但是我還要提問一個問題，未來影像上傳後的資料儲存到底會採定時上傳方式還是即時串流監控？這兩件事情是不一樣的喔！部長，上傳表示幼兒診所等幼兒場域的所有影片都上傳，但不一定會即時看到問題；如果有即時串流，且有專責人員─例如10個人、20個人在觀看、抽看，所有幼兒場域就可能在照顧上更謹慎、小心，或是自己的內控會更完整。所以我要請問部長，現在你們內部想做的做法到底是採定時上傳方式還是即時串流監控方式做後續處理？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，我請呂次長幫我回答。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，本部目前所採取的是定時上傳方式。"],["李委員彥秀：那我就要提醒你，定時上傳還是有其漏洞在，就是等發生問題的時候再調照片回來看、調影片回來看，這點跟家長的期待還是有一點落差。"],["呂次長建德：是，了解。"],["李委員彥秀：對於這個部分怎麼補足，我希望你們思考。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["李委員彥秀：我站在一個母親的立場，其實希望每一個孩子都照顧得好。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我提醒你們這件事情。對於後續怎麼樣補足，我當然希望是串流，但是怎麼做，我希望你們思考一下。謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝李委員。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的詢答、謝謝部長。","接下來請黃捷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24171a6fbe4800726db893ac8d10b5d33da3426710e0a50eed5d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:15:34 - 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就是形式主義上好像你們認為是合法的可是如果從性平意識跟性別評審教育法的精神來看你們用的是最低標然後這個部分 今天會拖到這麼多委員的集體聲明真的希望教育部把危機變成轉機 好好的徹底檢討"},{"start":88.891,"end":94.097,"text":"那我想部長這個部分因為我們後續都會監督部長應該可以同意我所講的吧"},{"start":95.867,"end":124.446,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心確實我們現在是從這個方向在努力也會深切檢討我想因為這件事情還有加上最近的手機爭議真的讓全國的不管是大學生或是高中生等會對教育部有一些信心危機我想我們都在努力希望建立不管是性平的制度或者是兒少表義權"},{"start":125.407,"end":142.438,"text":"就是讓大家看到教育部是重視的因為如果教育部不重視性平機制那全國的校長老師學生家長就是會有很大的憂慮如果教育部不重視兒少表義權我想青年學生也不能接受所以這個手機爭議出來的時候當然我們知道後來國教署長司長都有幫忙解釋"},{"start":150.643,"end":176.911,"text":"當天並不是政策發布會是媒體問然後部長突然說出集中保管九月上路就有很多的爭議我在第一時間就邀集了全國遠從屏中高雄都有來的高中職學生代表跟教育部面對面你看那個照片來了這麼多人他們真的是緊急的都很願意來立法院那謝謝當天祖密到了資料司長到國教署長也都到"},{"start":177.731,"end":196.329,"text":"那司长资料司长还有帮忙致歉说之前的确没有咨询足够的学生当然当天真的是炮声隆隆那天主要的诉求一个是高中生应该要分阶段管理因为高中生的自主程度跟国中小不一样"},{"start":197.29,"end":205.556,"text":"還有校內民主學生代表這兩個部分謝謝教育部有納入你們後來公布的草案中那我第一時間也為了彌補這個兒少表義權的部分就要求教育部"},{"start":212.621,"end":225.653,"text":"如果來不及在草案前至少草案預告期間要主辦一場學生專場的公聽會那這部分教育部答應了那後來我們看到的是教育部在這個週末會辦一場高中生專場的全國座談會那我現在是希望部長您當"},{"start":232.619,"end":244.477,"text":"今天是不是能夠代表教育部到場聆聽讓大家感受到部長您非常的重視青少年表義權願意聆聽高中生對這個草案的看法呢"},{"start":247.586,"end":270.63,"text":"謝謝委員關心 我想這個星期天的6月1號署長跟市長都會親自參加那我這個部分我來努力我來看 因為有一些既定的想法我希望部長可以努力啦因為我相信以您的心理學的背景對這件事情的懇切態度能夠讓高中生感受到您願意聆聽重視兒少表義權而且當天我們知道的是"},{"start":274.631,"end":301.343,"text":"有120位不只是全國的高中生還有線上剛剛也有高中生反應說好像只有45個人發言我是希望無論如何高中生能夠炮聲隆隆對教育部有批判性的意見應該是我們民主的成果其實在座談會的時候我也跟他們講說政部長一定很高興看到你們對於政府的政策有意見"},{"start":301.803,"end":311.209,"text":"因為這是我們民主的成果我們應該要驕傲才對所以我真的非常的希望第一個當天能夠讓越多的學生發言越好那書面意見也應該更開放那線上也要有表達意見的機會那這部分我想部長都聽到了那針對這個政策的部分因為部長一直有提到說你們有蒐集國際的經驗"},{"start":324.578,"end":347.906,"text":"以我辦公室這邊這個表格教育部可以拿去參考這是我們辦公室收集跟整理的因為它分散在很多不一樣的新聞聯合國教科文組織也有統計但是這個表格分享出來是我們辦公室做的其實2024年底全世界有79個國家都有守基相關的禁令政策或法規"},{"start":348.766,"end":372.419,"text":"如果我們只看民主國家的話我們這裡列的是歐美民主國家跟亞洲我們認為值得參考的日本韓國新加坡部長你可以看到雖然全國統一有相關的禁用政策是多數可是高中幾乎都是分級管理不管制高中不管制是民主國家包含日本是這麼做"},{"start":373.659,"end":390.145,"text":"統一集中保管的策略是少數我們整理到的只有法國、荷蘭、匈牙利跟瑞典那學校自主規範在幾種方法中選擇的彈性規範也是多數這是我們辦公室整理到的就是國際的狀況"},{"start":392.226,"end":408.553,"text":"而且我們看到教育部現在公告的草案我們覺得其實還是太簡略因為全國有3854個學校每個學校狀況不同那他們都要各自討論或執行其實這個指引雖然你們叫做指引但是不夠詳盡"},{"start":411.374,"end":427.74,"text":"不知道部長有沒有看過我手上這個我們辦公室找到的英國針對手機政策頒布之後他們教育部的指引部長有看過嗎我手上這份東西網路上有待會兒我可以給您您有沒有看過知道有這個東西"},{"start":430.263,"end":438.766,"text":"英國的這個詳細的資料我沒有看但是我大概知道英國的一些相關的一些好那我要講的事情是我待會就可以直接給部長他非常的詳盡這個指引本身就11頁我們的這個草案只有3頁"},{"start":448.65,"end":469.118,"text":"英國本領這個相關的政策之後他還有一個說帖這個說帖本身是要告訴每個學校如何跟家長老師跟學生溝通因為這個溝通是非常的繁複的那這個你可以看到這樣一個政策在溝通上要做得多細緻然後呢"},{"start":471.039,"end":484.955,"text":"英國的指引有給學校就像你們有給幾個方式可是他很清楚說這四種管理方式各自有的優點跟缺點學校要注意的譬如入校繳手機可能會有ABG個人保管"},{"start":485.796,"end":505.707,"text":"禁止使用但不收腳必須要有親師生高度信任就比較是在低就比較像我們現在高中的現狀你看到他的指引這麼的詳盡那可是呢我們並沒有所以我真的希望教育部可以參考英國的這兩份我待會可以直接給部長就是能夠"},{"start":506.707,"end":522.621,"text":"提供給學校更詳細的從溝通說帖到政策的指引讓學校在選擇的時候有更清楚那這個部分剛剛部長已經講到你還沒有看過那我想現在我們的部分那真的太少了"},{"start":522.981,"end":544.526,"text":"另外就是我相信禮拜天高中生也會反映因為在我們辦的30所高中生座談就已經談到了還有最近我也請了幾個高中生代表來跟我直播部長有興趣可以快展看一下你可以看到現在的高中生成熟度像我們當年的大學生因為他們現在的學生議會然後代表各方面"},{"start":545.226,"end":569.609,"text":"他們希望你們所說的學生代表的三分之一的比例能夠比照服役委員會不要到最後的校務會議中剛剛也有不同政黨的委員談到是不是會被推翻如果是比同服役委員會的話就有一個但書的條件不知道部長有沒有可能參考呢"},{"start":570.289,"end":596.161,"text":"就是學生希望說你們在禮拜天之後能夠更清楚的向服役委員會把行動載具委員會明定這個規則中包含說如果是比照服役的話就校務會議在怎麼樣的情況下除非是違法或等等那不得任意修改那明定成員產生的方式剛剛有別的委員有講到那三分之一等等決議的方式不知道部長能不能夠考慮呢"},{"start":598.466,"end":622.537,"text":"謝謝委員關心 因為確實委員在這一個手機的一個管理原則裡面也給補裡面有很多的指導那我們雖然英國的detail的東西我並沒有看但是澳洲的我在看澳洲跟英國的都四個選項裡面分別有做一些也是我們這一次裡面管理要點也採用了簡單來講就是說你學校到底是要"},{"start":623.477,"end":638.737,"text":"統一來集中管理還是放在各班還是由學生關機放在這一個書包裡邊然後因為他確實我們也都把這些國際的一些現況做了一些感謝委員提醒"},{"start":639.238,"end":664.515,"text":"所以我們目前的一個這個公告一告的事實上我們除了草案還有範本還有QA大概也十幾頁啦但是不管怎樣我感謝委員給我們這樣的一些意見也許我們在6月1號星期天的這個公聽會完以後因為他有實體有線上嘛那我們怎麼樣去廣納這一個學生的一個意見然後能夠做最後的一些"},{"start":664.895,"end":685.277,"text":"那個部長說精神上有參考澳洲的可是我看到的就是你這四個選項還是太炒劣沒有想到他的優缺點然後怎麼跟師生好溝通弄一個優缺點做一個評估我們原來是說把這些訊息沒有單一的選項而是讓學校回到"},{"start":686.678,"end":714.118,"text":"在建立共識或是教評會裡面他們能夠去重複考慮那我想就是家長老師學生在這個議題上有可能有一些各自的就是說意見跟衝突就像我們剛講的各方的意見然後教育部的關心這個部分我們一直都講到我們委員是肯定的可是怎麼樣在溝通跟政策制定的過程中考慮多方的意見好好的溝通還是提醒部長全國"},{"start":714.778,"end":738.406,"text":"全台只要國中小就有7萬多班 14多萬老師喔那他們遇到的問題喔 我還是希望喔那也許趁著暑假 教師應該要辦公聽會那好好的溝通跟相關的 而且是分區喔那另外我那天有跟部長講我覺得這麼重要的政策 如果以法國為例其實他們是有做200所中學的試辦"},{"start":740.367,"end":748.829,"text":"然後隔了一年之後才正式上路那也這樣才知道指引不足尤其是你現在的國中小如果集中保管要試辦的話那我知道部長很焦慮覺得這個是一個據說重要的政策沒有時間試辦我還是有四個訴求啦"},{"start":759.352,"end":780.191,"text":"第一個制定要更執引更完整溝通也要有一個執引第二個就是三分之一這部分能不能補照服醫委員會的規定納入你的辦法中第三個競速辦分區場次的公聽會能夠完整收集教師學生家長當然最好最後教育部是不是能夠考慮你們的"},{"start":782.733,"end":803.879,"text":"修正後公布的話有一個事半期那晚一點再上路我想就是這個東西我知道教育部有自己的agenda但是從這一波溝通經驗中我們認為這影響所有的人影響老師影響學生影響家長的生活好的政策需要好的溝通好不好那部長可以回去考慮嗎"},{"start":805.994,"end":830.059,"text":"根文報告我們行動採取事實上本來就已經計定了辦法現在只是修訂這個我們了解第二個我們在這個修訂的過程事實上我們全教產教師會所有的團體包括教員我們也都有徵詢等於說一體座談所以要有一個更詳細我想我們當然讓全國能夠有一個更好的一個遵循我們會來努力"},{"start":831.519,"end":844.531,"text":"好 那我们是希望好的政策最后教育部是得到大家的肯定跟支持好 教育部加油好 谢谢好 谢谢范语云委员的咨询官员请回座接下来有请万美玲委员咨询"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時15分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長好。關於教育部對性平案件的相關處置，今天早上郭昱晴委員和張雅琳委員，還有剛剛發言的吳沛憶委員，都表達了他們非常重視。張雅琳委員有三點要求，吳沛憶委員也針對調查性平會的運作情形，希望你們要做到利益迴避，他們所說的，本席都支持。","這不是個別委員的意見，部長應該很清楚。我們七位民進黨的教文委員兩次發公文要求，兩次和部長、次長當面討論、要求，如果再加上本席個人更早以前的質詢，就能知道我們一直對你們的回復不滿意。針對這個部分，本席再次重申，它其實是教育部系統性的問題，剛剛張雅琳委員說到你們的性平意識，其實就臺大來看，臺大也產生了系統性的問題。","本席為什麼這麼說？在形式主義上，好像你們認為是合法的，可是如果從性平意識和性別平等教育法的精神來看，你們用的是最低標。這部分拖到今天，有這麼多委員集體發聲明，本席真的希望教育部能把危機變成轉機，好好的澈底檢討。部長，針對這部分，我們後續也會再監督，部長應該同意本席所說的吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心。確實，我們現在是往這個方向在努力，也會深切檢討。"],["范委員雲：因為這件事情，再加上最近的手機爭議，全國不管是大學生或是高中生，對教育部有一些信心危機。不管是性平制度或者是兒少表意權，我們都在努力建構，就是要讓大家看到教育部重視這些事。因為如果教育部不重視性平機制，全國的校長、老師、學生、家長就會有很大的憂慮！如果教育部不重視兒少表意權，青年學生也不能接受！","所以當手機爭議出現的時候，當然，我們知道後來國教署長、司長都有幫忙解釋，當天並不是政策發布會，是媒體詢問，部長突然說出集中保管9月上路，所以就有很多爭議。本席第一時間就邀請全國的高中職學生代表和教育部面對面討論，其中還有遠從屏東、高雄來的，你看照片，當天來了這麼多人。雖然時間很緊急，但他們都很願意來立法院，謝謝當天主秘到場，還有廖司長、國教署長也都到場，廖司長還幫忙致歉，說之前的確沒有諮詢足夠的學生。","當然，當天真的砲聲隆隆，那天主要的訴求，一個是高中生應該要分階段管理，因為高中生的自主程度和國中小不一樣，還有校內民主學生代表這兩個部分，謝謝教育部有納入你們後來公布的草案中。本席第一時間也表示，為了彌補兒少表意權的部分，要求教育部如果來不及在草案前處理，至少草案預告期間要主辦一場學生專場的公聽會，這部分教育部答應了。","後來我們看到，教育部在這個週末會辦一場高中生專場的全國座談會，部長當天是不是能夠代表教育部到場聆聽？讓大家能感受到部長非常重視青少年表意權，願意聆聽高中生對這個草案的看法？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。6月1日星期天這場會議，署長和司長都會親自參加，至於我的部分，我來努力，因為有一些既定的行程。"],["范委員雲：本席希望部長可以努力！因為本席相信，以您心理學的背景以及對這件事情的重視，能夠讓高中生感受到您願意聆聽的態度，也知道您重視兒少表意權。而且我們知道，當天會有120位學生參加，不只是全國的高中生，還有線上的部分。但剛剛也有高中生反映，好像只能有45人發言，本席希望無論如何都要增加，因為高中生對這件事砲聲隆隆，雖然對教育部有批判性的意見，但這也是我們實施民主的成果。","其實在座談會的時候，本席也告訴他們，鄭部長一定很高興看到你們對政府的政策有意見，因為這是我們實施民主的成果，我們應該要驕傲才對。所以本席真的非常希望，第一個，當天能夠讓越多學生發言越好，書面意見的部分也應該更開放，線上的部分也要有表達意見的機會，這部分部長都聽到了。","針對這個政策，因為部長一直提到，你們有蒐集、參考國際經驗，以本席辦公室提出的這個表格來看，教育部可以拿去參考，這是我們辦公室蒐集、整理的，它分散在許多新聞中。聯合國教科文組織也有統計，但是這個表格分項是我們辦公室做的。其實2024年底，全世界有79個國家都有手機相關的禁令政策或法規，如果我們只看民主國家的話，這裡列的是歐美民主國家和我們認為值得參考的亞洲國家日本、韓國、新加坡。","部長，你可以看到，雖然全國統一有相關禁用政策是多數，可是高中的部分幾乎都是分級管理不管制，高中不管制是民主國家的做法，包含日本都是這麼做。至於採統一集中保管策略的則是少數，我們整理到的，只有法國、荷蘭、匈牙利和瑞典。開放學校自主彈性規範，在這幾種方法中，選擇彈性規範的也是多數，這是我們辦公室整理的的國際狀況。","教育部現在公告的草案，我們覺得還是太簡略，因為全國有3,854個學校，每個學校的狀況都不同，他們都要各自討論或執行，這個指引，雖然你們叫做指引，但其實不夠詳盡。部長有沒有看過本席手上這份資料？這是我們辦公室找到的，英國針對手機政策頒布之後，他們教育部所做的指引。部長有看過嗎？本席手上這份資料在網路上也有，待會可以給您。您有沒有看過？是否知道有這個資料？"],["鄭部長英耀：英國這個詳細的data，我沒有看，但是我大概知道英國有一些相關規範。"],["范委員雲：這份資料待會可以直接給部長，它非常詳盡，這個指引有11頁，而我們的草案只有3頁。英國頒布相關政策之後還有一個說帖，這個說帖是要告訴每個學校如何和家長、老師、學生溝通，因為這個溝通是非常繁複的，你可以看到，這樣一個政策在溝通上要做得多細緻。","英國有給學校指引，就像你們也有給幾個方式，可是他們很清楚的說明這四種管理方式各自的優點和缺點，還有學校需要注意的事情，譬如入校繳手機時可能會有AB機。個人保管是禁止使用但不收繳，必須要有親師生高度信任，比較像我們現在高中的狀況，你可以看到他們的指引這麼詳盡，可是我們的並沒有。","所以本席真的希望教育部可以參考英國這兩份資料，待會可以直接給部長，希望你們能夠提供學校更詳細的溝通說帖和政策指引，讓學校在選擇的時候能夠更了解。關於這個部分，剛剛部長已經說還沒有看過，本席認為現在我們提供的內容真的太少了。另外，本席相信禮拜天的時候高中生也會反映，因為在我們辦的30所高中生座談就有談到。","還有，最近本席也請了幾個高中生代表一起直播，部長有興趣的話可以快轉看一下。你可以看到現在高中生的成熟度，就像我們當年的大學生，因為他們現在有學生議會、有代表。他們希望所謂的學生代表三分之一比例要比照服儀委員會，且不得在最後的校務會議修改，剛剛也有不同政黨委員談到是不是會被推翻？但如果是比照服儀委員會就會有但書，不知道部長有沒有可能參考呢？學生希望你們在禮拜天的公聽會之後能夠比照服儀委員會的規定，把行動載具委員會的設立更清楚明訂在這個規則中。包含如果是比照服儀委員會的規定，校務會議在什麼樣的情況下，除非是違法，否則不得任意修改委員會的決議，也包含剛剛其他委員講到的明訂成員產生的方式及三分之一決議的方式等等，不知道部長能不能考慮呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心！確實委員在手機管理原則方面也給部裡許多的指導。雖然我並沒有看關於英國在這方面比較detail的東西，但我看到澳洲與英國在4個選項中分別做的一些作為也是我們這次部裡採用的管理要點。簡單來講，學校到底是要統一集中管理或是放在各班、或是由學生關機後放在書包裡，確實我們也針對國際的現況做了一些研究，感謝委員的提醒。目前我們的公告，事實上，除了草案之外，還有範本及QA，大概也有十幾頁，無論如何，感謝委員給我們這樣的意見。也許在6月1日星期天的公聽會結束之後，因為它有實體、有線上，我們要如何廣納學生的意見，做最後的要點修改，我想……"],["范委員雲：部長，你說在精神上有參考澳洲的做法，但我看到你們這4個選項還是太草略，沒有想到它的優缺點以及如何與師生溝通。"],["鄭部長英耀：就是針對它的優缺點進行評估，原本這些訊息並沒有單一的選項，由學校回去建立共識或是在教評會中充分反映。"],["范委員雲：家長、老師及學生在這個議題上可能有一些各自的意見及衝突，就像我們剛剛講的各方意見，當然，我們委員對於教育部在這個部分的關心是肯定的，但是如何在政策制定過程中考慮多方意見並好好的溝通？還是要提醒部長，全臺光國中小就有七萬多班、十四萬多名教師，對於他們遇到的問題，也許能趁暑假舉辦教師的公聽會好好溝通相關問題，而且要分區舉辦。另外，那天我告訴過部長，這麼重要的政策，如果以法國為例，其實他們有做200所中學的試辦，隔了一年之後才正式上路，這樣才知道指引不足。尤其是現在如果要試辦國中、小手機集中保管的話，我知道部長很焦慮，你覺得這是一個重要的政策，沒有時間試辦，但我還是有四個訴求。第一個，制定指引要更完整，溝通也要有一個指引。第二個，三分之一的部分能不能比照服儀委員會的規定，納入你的辦法中？第三個，盡速舉辦分區場次的公聽會，最好能夠完整蒐集教師、學生及家長的意見。最後，教育部是不是能夠考慮在修正公布後有一個試辦期，晚一點再上路？我知道教育部有自己的agenda，但是從這一波的溝通經驗中，我們認為它會影響老師、影響學生以及影響家長的生活，好的政策需要好的溝通，好不好？部長，可以回去考慮嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，事實上，我們對於行動載具本來就已經有既定的辦法，現在只是修訂。"],["范委員雲：這個我們了解。"],["鄭部長英耀：第二個，在這個修訂的過程中，事實上，包括全教產、教師會及家長會等所有的團體，我們也都在座談時徵詢他們的意見，當然我們也會努力讓全國有一個更好的遵循方向。"],["范委員雲：我們希望教育部這個好的政策在最後能得到大家的肯定及支持，教育部加油！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f2469824f23df1a064fafe3e41e2f2b0d30a3426710e0a50eed8561d87bf4e94c8c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:15:14 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請彭主委喂 彭主委好辛苦了我本來今天要跟你談難得你推動的這個亞洲資產管理中心現在已經有35家金融機構表態願意進駐這本來是好消息可是我今天要先跟你提一項就是到底我們國內血汗"},{"start":30.798,"end":59.548,"text":"責任額的金融機構是哪一些啦因為大概這幾個禮拜來就承接著我們從去年開始有的這個ETF的熱潮那我們就陸續接到金融機構券商包括銀行那麼券商的營業員銀行的理專們他們都有來投訴就是說竟然啊"},{"start":60.782,"end":86.685,"text":"我們的金融機構包括國營的喔給他們一個不合理的責任額的分配那這些責任額的分配那該券商銀行都是用這種人格侮辱威脅恐嚇經濟壓迫不公平對待甚至很多很奇怪的"},{"start":87.731,"end":113.006,"text":"言論方式來壓榨他們我舉幾個這種亂象這些亂象其實或多或少我想主委你應該有接到投訴比方說這個責任你做不到自己想辦法比方說要不然你就自掏腰包要不然你就這個環境不適合你你就離開吧"},{"start":113.959,"end":135.163,"text":"用這種威脅的方式甚至還直接券商還直接對這個營業人說我不相信你在IPO連十萬都賣不到都騙不到連十萬都騙不到那某一家今天"},{"start":143.833,"end":158.502,"text":"這個公營勞務他也在場但是是他們的證券主管啦直接在談話的時候直接強調說要用話術去詐騙客戶天啊用話術詐騙客戶那就包括剛剛我講的連10萬IPO的時候你連10萬都騙不到嗎天啊"},{"start":171.138,"end":198.457,"text":"我先前在說薯條三兄弟是有牌的地下錢莊成幾何時我們國家的國營的券商銀行竟然成了有牌的詐騙集團要去詐騙投資人詐騙我們一般的百姓可以這樣子嗎要"},{"start":201.052,"end":219.096,"text":"他的禮專銀行券商要他的音樂園去詐騙投資者無辜的民眾可以這樣子做嗎然後還亂象超多啦我隨便舉幾項齁還說這些儲管講話的時候還說"},{"start":226.209,"end":251.383,"text":"你的裙子穿得比別人短結果你的責任跟別人一樣你覺得這樣公平嗎竟然講這樣子的話有的主管還直接對女性講說你是女性欸你是女人欸你要利用自己的優勢天啊"},{"start":254.042,"end":280.683,"text":"天啊這些都是實話我再沒有看到這些投訴沒看到他們提出的證據的時候實在不敢相信無法自信所以我相信王主委你或多或少理解到這一個部分所以我要請問你的就是說有沒有接獲就是我們金管組會有沒有接獲這個"},{"start":283.188,"end":285.634,"text":"券商投信銀行"},{"start":286.877,"end":315.18,"text":"他們的營業員禮專這一些那有這種被壓迫的情況還有第二點那我們金管會專案經檢了沒有那這個專案經檢我覺得不能只針對投信券商我看連銀行都要在內的原因是什麼呢銀行因為要負責保管嘛銀行現在他們也要銷售這個叫做投資型的"},{"start":316.621,"end":345.609,"text":"投資型的保單那現在銀行也給他們的這個包括除了禮專以後還包括他們的櫃員他們在櫃台的也都分配他們額度就對然後甚至有的儲管直接挑明的說啦直接挑明的說說你自行購買就是你自掏腰包"},{"start":346.789,"end":362.767,"text":"那這個就是付給公司的保護費條明要這樣講喔 說這個是付給公司的保護費否則 否則 欸 他說KPI不達到 年終獎金一毛也拿不到"},{"start":364.858,"end":393.897,"text":"就是這樣子天啊激進恐嚇之能勢啦所以這些亂象那個彭主委我不曉得您有沒有接獲這一些亂象的投訴還有你打算怎麼樣來整頓報告委員我們有接到投訴那就是因為在大概是這件事情的前後我們大概有我們棋局這邊有接到一些投訴的動作啦那當然"},{"start":395.075,"end":408.674,"text":"就像這個全經聯也提出一些訴求啊我們當然也就採取了行動那這部分的話我們分兩部分跟委員簡單說明一下我先請那個政經局長簡單跟你報告一下他們現在請眷商是怎麼做"},{"start":412.034,"end":435.194,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在已經叫建商全部去搜尋這個事項那搜尋回來我們再來看他們怎麼方式來現在去搜尋資料那這個大概多久會有結果我想一兩個禮拜就會回來一兩個禮拜一個禮拜兩個禮拜你要講清楚好不好因為兩個禮拜他們就會回報回來那你一拿到結論"},{"start":437.421,"end":457.963,"text":"你除了通報彭主委也讓我們知道好不好讓我們財委會知道好不好那彭主委你有要求說你這其實也對啦你要求他們說先制定規範先制律這也對可是如果已經有這麼荒腔走板的言行出現"},{"start":459.864,"end":484.934,"text":"黃牆左板的要求出現了我覺得這不只是讓他們自律而已而且剛剛你有提到的這個全今年他們這個五大訴求我覺得這個五大訴求都蠻有道理的而且是我們應該積極去做到包括他提到的第五個訴求就是建立吹哨者的保護機制這一點也很重要否則他們金若寒蟬不太敢講"},{"start":486.835,"end":491.217,"text":"任何一個建設性的意見對希望市場更健全更好我們都會來演繹參考他們認為頭信回單機制應該揭露他們認為對違法違規的券商要從嚴處分限期改善這個都對啊要求他們內部規範這就是你提到的嘛內部規範先要求他們自律"},{"start":512.468,"end":536.473,"text":"然後他們要求說IPO的評分機制這個要有這個都正確的事情尤其最後這一點就是說我希望能做到這個吹哨者保護的機制好不好我想這些都很具體啦我們都可以來看看只要能夠改善市場剛才委員提到啦剛才那些情況如果是不合理的我想"},{"start":537.694,"end":552.595,"text":"我上次文匯提到說因為我們業務端他有很多的那個促進業務的做法但是也要合理對當然合法是不是不用講了你看喔這些齁我舉我舉你看嘛去年我諮詢就講我說我們"},{"start":553.917,"end":583.317,"text":"銀行手續費收入是佔竟然佔他們的大宗那我們前五大還好這前五大都是民營銀行他們去拼賺這些手續費最高的一年四百一十幾億其他都兩三百億第五名的還有一百六十六億之高那當然這些手續費的收入某個程度講這是他們的權利啦但是每年啊"},{"start":584.399,"end":588.871,"text":"加起來上千億的手續費我就講五年就好"},{"start":589.471,"end":599.497,"text":"五年以來金融商品的說明不足造成的爭議竟然高達1390件欸五年1390件讓他們每年可以收上千億兩千億的手續費那這些金融商品他們胡亂週一通就是剛剛講的騙的結果有爭議啦1390件五年總共罰五件啦"},{"start":616.807,"end":628.473,"text":"五件那總共罰五千六百萬那可以說是哇這個是九牛一毛啦九萬牛一毛啦"},{"start":629.537,"end":654.132,"text":"每年兩千多億啊五年一兆的手續費那有爭議的那麼多只罰五千六百萬天啊所以我最後那個主席不好意思齁我再一分鐘我是要跟那個彭主委強調一下其實我們要壯大台灣金融市場打造具有台灣特色的資產管理這個都對但是有一點"},{"start":655.379,"end":681.219,"text":"我一直覺得蠻矛盾就是我一年前講 講到現在我就說我們受險的資金餘額35兆裡面有高達70%有25兆拿去買國外的債券基金而這些國外的債券基金兩大風險一個匯率 一個戰爭結果兩個我們都碰到了匯率就是這一次美國這一次"},{"start":682.02,"end":710.019,"text":"那這台幣漲了一成他們的損失這麼重大他們受險要的損失就是全民保護的損失欸是這樣嘛這個阿藏針提的也碰到了嘛俄國買的那一千三百多億就是碰到戰爭的風險所以我要你回去好好細思一下當我們希望打造台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心的時候至少"},{"start":710.899,"end":735.035,"text":"我們要一定程度的要在國內我們設建設公債引導我們這些受險資金回到台灣來壯大台灣這才對也就是說我們的錢至少相當一部分我們自己管這樣我們才有辦法去吸收國外的錢說你來給我管不是這樣嗎如果我們70%的錢出去給別人管"},{"start":735.715,"end":763.998,"text":"然後我們說拜託大家錢來給我管這不成效那要找誰來給我們管找非洲的小國家嗎所以這一點我們要好好的細思一下也就是說美國這一次的關稅匯率這件事情是不是會影響到我們導引我們國內授權業的資金回台灣這個部分正反面好好去評估好不好"},{"start":764.458,"end":764.999,"text":"接著請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":973,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時15分）謝謝主席，請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委好，辛苦了。難得你推動的亞洲資產管理中心現在已經有35家金融機構表態願意進駐，這本來是好消息。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：可是我今天要先跟你提一下，到底我們國內血汗責任額的金融機構是哪一些？因為大概這幾個禮拜來，承接著去年開始就有的ETF熱潮，我們陸續接到金融機構的券商營業員及銀行理專都有來投訴，竟然我們的金融機構包括國營的，會給他們的員工不合理的責任額分配。對於這些責任額的分配，該券商、銀行都是用人格污辱、威脅恐嚇、經濟壓迫等不公平對待，甚至用很多奇怪的言論方式來壓榨員工。我舉幾個亂象，這些亂象或多或少我想主委應該有接到投訴，比方責任額如果做不到就自己想辦法，比方要你自掏腰包，不然就以環境不適合你，你可以離開了的威脅方式，甚至券商還直接對營業員說：我不相信IPO連10萬元都賣不到、都騙不到！說連10萬都騙不到！某一家公營行庫今天也在場，他們的證券主管在談話的時候直接強調要用話術去詐騙客戶！天啊！用話術詐騙客戶？所以就包括剛剛我講的，質疑IPO連10萬元都騙不到嗎？天啊！我先前說「薯條三兄弟」是有牌的地下錢莊，曾幾何時，我們國家的國營券商銀行竟然成了有牌的詐騙集團，要去詐騙投資人，詐騙一般的百姓，可以這樣子嗎？銀行要理專及券商要營業員去詐騙投資者，對無辜的民眾，可以這樣子做嗎？","實際上，亂象超多啦，我隨便再舉幾項。這些主管還說：你的裙子穿的比別人短，結果你的責任和別人一樣，你覺得這樣公平嗎？竟然講這樣子的話！有的主管還直接對女性講：你是女性耶、你是女人耶，你要利用自己的優勢！天啊！天啊！這些都是實話耶，我在沒有看到這些投訴，沒看到他們提出證據的時候，實在不敢相信啦，無法置信。我相信彭主委或多或少也要理解到這個部分。我要請問你，第一、金管會有沒有接獲券商、投信、銀行的營業員及理專有這種被壓迫的情況？第二，這部分金管會專案金檢了沒有？專案金檢我覺得不能只針對投信券商，我看連銀行都要在內，原因是什麼？銀行因為要負責保管嘛，現在他們也要銷售投資型的保單，所以現在銀行除了對理專之外，還包括在櫃台的櫃員也都有分配額度。甚至有的主管直接挑明的說，自行購買就是自掏腰包，這就是付給公司的保護費。挑明的這樣講喔，說這個是付給公司的保護費，否則KPI不達到，年終獎金一毛也拿不到！就是這樣子，天啊！極盡恐嚇之能事，對於這一些亂象，我不曉得主委有沒有接到投訴，還有你打算怎麼樣來整頓？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們有接到投訴，對於這些事情，我們期局這邊有接到一些投訴，就像全金聯也提出一些訴求，我們當然也就採取了行動，對於這部分，我們分兩部分跟委員簡單說明一下，我先請證期局局長跟你報告一下現在券商怎麼做。"],["張局長振山：跟委員報告，我們現在已經叫券商全部去搜尋這個事項，搜尋回來，我們再來看他們怎麼方式來想。"],["王委員世堅：現在去搜尋資料？已經搜尋了，大概多久會有結果？"],["張局長振山：報告一、兩個禮拜就會回來。"],["王委員世堅：一或兩個禮拜你要講清楚，好不好？"],["張局長振山：兩個禮拜他們就會回報回來。"],["王委員世堅：好，那你一拿到結論，除了通報彭主委，也讓我們財委會知道，好不好？"],["張局長振山：好的。"],["王委員世堅：主委，其實你這樣也對啦，你要求他們先制定規範，先自律，這也對，可是如果已經有這麼荒腔走板的言行出現，這麼荒腔走板的要求出現了，我覺得這不只是讓他們自律而已。而且剛剛你有提到全金聯的五大訴求，我覺得這個五大訴求都滿有道理的，而且是我們應該積極去做到，包括第五個訴求是要建立吹哨者保護機制，這一點很重要，否則他們噤若寒蟬，不太敢講，這一點可不可以做到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：任何一個意見，只要有建設性的意見，希望市場更健全更好，我們都會來好好來研議。"],["王委員世堅：他們認為投信回單機制應該揭露，他們認為對違法違規的券商要從嚴處分，限期改善。這個都對，要求他們內部規範，這就是你提到的，內部規範先要求他們自律，然後他們要求IPO的評分機制要有，這個都是正確的事情。尤其最後這一點，就是我希望能做到吹哨者保護的機制，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這些都很具體，我們都可以來看看，只要能夠改善市場。剛才委員提到了，剛才那些情況如果是不合理的，我上次在委員會也提到，因為我們業務端有很多促進業務的做法，但是也要合理，當然合法是不用講了。"],["王委員世堅：另外，去年我質詢就講了，銀行手續費收入竟然佔他們收益的大宗，還好前五名都是民營銀行，他們去拚賺這些手續費，最高的一年四百多億，其他都兩、三百億，第5名的還有166億之高，當然這些手續費的收入某個程度來講是他們的權益，但是每年加起來有上千億的手續費。另外，我講近五年的金融糾紛，五年以來，因為金融商品說明不足造成的爭議竟然高達1,390件，五年有1,390件，讓他們每年可以收上千億、兩千億的手續費，那這些金融商品，他們胡亂收一通，就是剛剛講的用騙的，結果有爭議的有1,390件，五年總共罰5件，5件總共罰5,600萬，可以說是九牛一毛、九萬牛一毛！每年二千多億，五年1兆的手續費，有爭議的那麼多，只罰5,600萬，天啊！","主席，不好意思，我再一分鐘。我最後要跟彭主委強調一下，其實我們要壯大臺灣金融市場，打造具有臺灣特色的資產管理，這個都對，但是有一點我一直覺得蠻矛盾，我一年前講到現在，就是我們壽險的資金餘額35兆，裡面有高達70%有25兆拿去買國外的債券基金，而這些國外的債券基金有兩大風險，一個匯率，一個戰爭，結果兩個我們都碰到了，匯率就是這一次美國，那台幣漲了一成，他們的損失這麼重大，他們壽險業的損失就是全民保戶的損失，是這樣吧？第二個是戰爭，結果也碰到了，俄國買的那一千三百多億，就是碰到戰爭的風險。所以我要你回去好好細思一下，當我們希望打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心的時候，至少我們要一定程度的在國內設建設公債，引導我們這些壽險資金回到臺灣，來壯大臺灣才對，也就是說我們的錢至少相當一部分要我們自己管，這樣我們才有辦法去吸收國外的錢，要他們來給我們管嘛，不是這樣嗎？如果我們70%的錢出去給別人管，然後我們拜託他們的錢來給我們管，這不是「裝肖維」嗎？那要找誰來給我們管？找非洲的小國家嗎？所以這一點我們要好好的細思一下，也就是美國這一次關稅匯率這件事情，是不是會影響到我們導引國內壽險業的資金回臺灣，對這個部分的正反面要好好去評估，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝，你辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員。","接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 2 案、\n(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅\n廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」\n等6案；二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳\n濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部\n分條文修正草案」等 4 案、 ( 二 ) 本院委員林楚茵等 17 人、委員王鴻薇等 19 人、委員郭國文等 18\n人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等\n4案、(三)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條\n條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145401_00006"}}},{"id":"162036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24c6036dbfb488bc551b5ee1b3bf308d2ea3426710e0a50eed1a06a885b33e9f7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"12:21:42 - 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感謝主席 本席邀請我們農業部陳部長陳部長各位好 保長你好保長 我今天想要跟你探討一個問題大概到今年為止 2024年我們的農業就業人口數大概將近50萬到49萬4千幾個"},{"start":29.813,"end":43.087,"text":"現在應該更加四十八萬外傾那其中啊大概占我國總經理人數都差不多4%多啦但是我其中"},{"start":44.42,"end":69.371,"text":"政府很關心農民 照顧農民所以我們從2021年我們就制定農民退休金的除息條例但是我看實施以來 我們最近的提繳人數逐月的降低啦我給你看這個曲線 大家來倒立農民退休除金的提繳人數好像參與人數就會越來越少"},{"start":70.371,"end":93.341,"text":"到底是怎麼回事呢?是缺乏誘因呢?還是我們是不是應該,政府可以努力安裝來提供農民元利來參與退休儲金提交的意願?因為我們目的是要保障農民的生活,以及最重要的就是吸引年輕人投入。我們現在的親農人數大概有多少?"},{"start":96.417,"end":122.217,"text":"我們福島有關的都是七萬人左右七萬人左右我另外一個數字給部長當參考啦就是說很多人他要到農藥陣營其實有可能是勞工啦有可能在別的職場工作啦所以目前有參與勞保的農民大概有四萬三千九百多人就是說這些人是勞保啦但是他現在從事的是"},{"start":123.226,"end":129.772,"text":"農業過去參與其他職業有了抱財心那很多人就因為他捨不得勞保所以就沒有來參加我們的"},{"start":138.347,"end":160.464,"text":"農民退休的儲蓄啦 你知道這個總共嗎?我了解 我真的很感謝喔 就是委員提出這個觀察啦這個觀察真的非常重要 就是說我們現在有很多青農喔 大家有一半是假期從事勞工的但是因為勞工做了一段時間不做了從事農業 但是又捨不得放棄"},{"start":161.905,"end":177.772,"text":"這個保溫完全沒有保障,我們現在的農業處境完全不能加保啦,不能加保所以我以為這樣說的話,這個部分我們要能夠解決了以後,才能夠讓這個覆蓋率能夠拉高對,因為你現在這個農民健康保險條例第五條你就知道了"},{"start":180.529,"end":187.314,"text":"第三條就是如果你要參與農民的退休儲蓄,必須要有農報,更何況你第五條也寫到了,你要參與農民儲蓄保險"},{"start":201.144,"end":225.909,"text":"必須為領取相關的社會保險 讓人給付啦他這兩條白紙的齁 所以這過去啊總是農業進行在白的政府的 在白的行業的他先 他是臣服勞保的 他就不敢放棄啊你知道他也不行啦 他一定要放棄才可以來參加 農民隊就出去嘛所以當然就幹給他的意願嘛 不然你 你如果知道這個情形"},{"start":227.009,"end":252.195,"text":"那我是覺得農業部應該要想辦法來處理對 謝謝委員關心那這個部分第一個就是要去修法我們也同意委員的這個看法就是說這個青農的主力有一半是曾經是保勞保的部分然後我們可以設計他勞保繼續保因為他是用自營工作者但是他可以加入農民退休儲金"},{"start":253.115,"end":269.85,"text":"那這樣的話他以後的保障會更多的時候他就有意願來繼續從事農業啦那這個部分如果委員支持我想我們會盡快的去在版本裡面去提出來配套因為你如果不修法你就抵觸啦政府要發展輕農"},{"start":271.672,"end":277.155,"text":"對 輕點返鄉從事農業的這樣的一個政策方向你是否讓這個勞保跟農民退休儲蓄來脫鉤的話你不脫鉤的話 這個問題就會存在所以我們這個問題來處理"},{"start":288.123,"end":308.822,"text":"從補充業界來處理喔你家這個人數啊我掌握的人數啊目前有勞保但是他從事農業的你看有將近4萬4千4萬幾人欸對喔好不好好啊這補充業家我們請部長如果有支持那我們農業部應該盡速來修改相關的規範我跟委員報告齁我們現在已經有安排跟行政院報告"},{"start":310.143,"end":323.836,"text":"農民稅有儲金的包括委員也有提案的這個1比1.5的部分還有一些我們的想法包括您剛才講的這個東西我們把它把它變成一個完整的方案來爭取行政院的支持這樣好好好 抱歉先夠了謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好 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Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭國文","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","林俊憲","呂玉玲"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二、本院\n委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145401_00005"}}},{"id":"162035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f245ca2deee1c3a7992e795f59f7b69f6aea3426710e0a50eed4cbb1eeebf50ae7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:12:07 - 12:21:14","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T12:12:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:21:14+08:00","duration":547,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.14471875,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2878437500000004,"end":3.4734687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.290343750000002,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.77471875,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.19471875,"end":36.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.94909375,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.47471875,"end":50.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.744718750000004,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.27159375,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.55846875,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.03096875,"end":57.625343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.01346875,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.29659375,"end":94.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.19096875000001,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.27534375,"end":83.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.62784375000001,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.12721875000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.24846875,"end":147.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.85596875000002,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.45409375,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.31034375000002,"end":183.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.69846875000002,"end":227.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.36659375000002,"end":239.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.05659375000002,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.62471875000003,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.97409375,"end":267.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.29721875,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.98846875000004,"end":273.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.23284375000003,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.94971875000005,"end":280.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.91534375000003,"end":292.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.22659375,"end":287.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.81284375,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.76159375000003,"end":301.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.07284375,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":306.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.92846875000004,"end":313.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.54721875,"end":315.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.22221875,"end":317.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.57221875000005,"end":327.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.89659375,"end":320.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.55346875000004,"end":328.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.60409375,"end":330.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.62096875000003,"end":328.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.23659375,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.27034375,"end":333.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.67909375000005,"end":335.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.44221875,"end":340.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.29846875000004,"end":342.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.76659375,"end":342.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.79596875000004,"end":346.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那有請部長部長在走上台的時候我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於耳哨的關心而且你舉了日本的例子非常棒 謝謝"},{"start":19.793,"end":36.592,"text":"好 部長你剛剛回應建國委員說一個月內會延役嘛部長我跟你報告在行政院而上權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21列案當中不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭支部會最後狀態叫做未列管"},{"start":38.024,"end":57.054,"text":"所以在行政院那邊耳哨權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情那如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議你們一個月內要研議我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下對 次長應該知道我在講什麼我們耳哨權益推動小組裡面好 回到推法裡面我今天想要談"},{"start":58.115,"end":81.342,"text":"在CRC國內法化之後我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候不管是家庭不管是學校不管是社區我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接觸所有的小孩這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神對不對"},{"start":83.296,"end":94.363,"text":"那確實衛福部在這幾年當中也確實做了非常多資源的盤點包含人力包含資源然後可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題我相信次長會部長你一定都非常清楚"},{"start":96.203,"end":119.281,"text":"從凱凱愛我們可以看見 其實台灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多那脆家越來越多有很多原因 我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點可是我們回過來看結果 結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多照理說照顧這些來自脆家的小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸 對不對"},{"start":120.702,"end":146.054,"text":"邏輯上是這樣 就是我這張兒童權利公約所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講意思就是說國內法化後我們政府規定我們政府自己透過法律 透過預算 透過人力我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩所以凱凱才會被送到保母家居托中心的保母家部長跟次長我要跟你們報告一個現況現在是這樣 下一張"},{"start":148.175,"end":175.112,"text":"這些退家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式的照顧的差異我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境因為這些安置機構的困境會展現在會投射在他們服務的小孩身上現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分目前我們的規定設置標準22支一條不管是保育員或是生扶員的照顧是1比6"},{"start":176.613,"end":205.582,"text":"就是一個大人要照顧六個小朋友很困難啦 柏定是你覺得呢我自己一個人顧我們家兩個小孩我就陰陰外外更何況這些來自翠家的小孩他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構但事實上就是如此所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩他們要一比六的狀況下去照顧那"},{"start":205.962,"end":225.787,"text":"我們看到孩子的困境我們回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在因為這些孩子需要被照顧可是如果符合勞基法我們要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班所以一個機構絕對不會只有一個或兩個"},{"start":228.468,"end":239.691,"text":"申報員不管是保育員或是申服員至少拼三到四個可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準裡面只補助1.47倍的人力而且每一個人只補一萬九那甚至呢這些補助還設下條件條件一機構要自籌一萬八二機構進駐率要高於50%"},{"start":250.649,"end":273.621,"text":"部長 次長好了 那我們請次長回答 次長你對這個非常熟悉好不好 次長你聽懂我的困境了嗎我了解 完全了解 那我跟委員報告 現在確實因為營運最佳的這一個小朋友提安置的這個部分一定要改善 那我跟委員報告 您剛剛所說的整個 我們現在目前人力比 我們現在目前1比6對不對我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4 這是第一個等一下 什麼時候什麼時候"},{"start":276.974,"end":288.59,"text":"我很開心聽到這個我們現在正在修那個執法我跟委員報告其實之前我跟那個我們衛衛委員會那邊有去南投那邊是是是那個陳丑家園那邊我剛剛說過"},{"start":292.876,"end":294.557,"text":"現在我們會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準"},{"start":314.782,"end":332.618,"text":"分級分類我等一下會跟你討論另外一個就是專業服務費這個裡面如果說是一般性個案的話兩萬塊但是如果是特殊需求我們現在要提款三萬八千八百九十八這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎你第一個法然後他要出這個錢我們這邊會還是你們為服務補助"},{"start":338.693,"end":354.693,"text":"對 安置費用是那個地方政府編列啦對啦 事情就是這樣就是因為它是委員你意思是說可能我們現在中央這邊也要代理到什麼方法沒關係因為我知道財化法之後一定下去就是明年開始嘛財化法下去之後地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情你也了解財化法之後"},{"start":355.214,"end":379.975,"text":"但是我覺得我們要強力的協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說這個美好的目標不過我認為補助人數補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件你剛剛規定他要自籌一萬八然後進駐率還要高於百分之五十我覺得這個要調整啦為什麼進駐率因為我們希望孩子們是回到累加的狀態比較多然後離開機構越來越多嘛我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下"},{"start":380.796,"end":394.604,"text":"包委員那個簡單那個委員剛剛提到就是說50%的部分這個我覺得這個也不合理所以我們覺得這部分會嚴厲把它刪除因為第二點您剛剛所說的沒錯地方政府他是負責安置費用但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助這是中央中央我們會來支持"},{"start":399.767,"end":405.452,"text":"但是地方的他也必須要有一些成效我認同所以我們後續來討論細節我今天先把問題提出來但是我很開心先聽到1比6比1比4再來分級分類下一張就是我剛剛跟你說的"},{"start":414.58,"end":440.47,"text":"分級分類你們確實現在有做嗎你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理說實話這個分類很rough啦那它其實可能也不是用於現場而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子那甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4對不對可是說實話我們如果遇到從翠家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況其實1比4loading都還是太重對不對"},{"start":441.87,"end":458.546,"text":"你可以想像嘛而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子他發作的時候通常可能兩三個申保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩然後雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的但是因為為了照顧這個小孩其他小孩就會被落在一邊這是現場很不得不的狀況"},{"start":459.247,"end":469.31,"text":"也不是申保員的錯所以我這邊要強力的要求我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論甚至跟很多民間團體討論一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案我所謂的報就是呈報這個數字上來呈報這個數字上來給地方政府給衛福部我們要如何去研議"},{"start":482.394,"end":499.799,"text":"協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整但是地方政府有沒有這個意識我相信從衛福部開始很重要因為衛福部訂定相關法規範讓地方政府去遵守我覺得是重要的我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看"},{"start":500.447,"end":517.327,"text":"包委員完全同意這個方向啦確實我那時候去看齁有一些孩子說那叫男子兒是那甚至說那個年紀齁一堆都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都都"},{"start":519.63,"end":543.883,"text":"所以我完全同意這個洪湧我們會全力我們來把安置機構的教養環境我們來好好處理好那還是回到那一張啦CRC公約說我們要照顧這些這些都是國家的小孩他只是家庭暫時出了狀況有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題時間有限我尊重主席我們後續還有很多安置機構狀況一起討論謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培文委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1618,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長，部長在走上台的時候，我要感謝建國委員剛剛對於兒少的關心，而且你舉了日本的例子，非常棒，謝謝。","部長你剛剛回應建國委員說1個月內會研議，部長我跟你報告，在行政院兒少權益推動小組列管事項114年4月21日列案當中，不知道是誰把成立兒童家庭之部會最後狀態叫做「未列管」，所以在行政院那邊兒少權益推動小組他們沒有列管這件事情，如果衛福部真的如同剛剛建國委員的建議，你們1個月內要研議，我覺得在這個相關的機制上可能要討論一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，次長應該知道我在講什麼，我們有兒少權益推動小組。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，回到兒童托育服務法，我今天想要談在CRC國內法化之後，我們確實需要明確的法律來確保每一個兒少在不同的生命經驗點或者是遇到意外的時候，不管是家庭、不管是學校、不管是社區，我們如何透過法制化的規範跟資源的撥補接住所有的小孩，這是CRC國內法化之後最重要的精神，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。衛福部在這幾年也確實做了非常多資源的盤點，包含人力、包含資源，可是我現在遇到一個很大的問題，我相信次長或部長一定都非常清楚，從剴剴案我們可以看見，臺灣這幾年的社會環境讓脆家越來越多，脆家越來越多有很多原因，我們沒有辦法系統性的去盤點，可是我們回過來看結果，結果就是脆家裡面出現的孩子們越來越多，照理說照顧這些來自脆家小孩的責任政府絕對不能推卸，對不對？邏輯上是這樣，就是我這張兒童權利公約，所以為什麼我要從兒童權利公約開始講？意思就是國內法化後，政府規定政府自己透過法律、透過預算、透過人力，我們讓這些小孩被我們照顧，可是政府不可能蓋這麼多安置機構接住這些脆家的小孩，所以剴剴才會被送到居托中心的保母家。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長跟次長，我要跟你們報告一個現況，現在是這樣，這些脆家的小孩大部分會被放到安置機構去，我們先不管安置機構跟所謂的家庭化式照顧的差異，我們先來看現在所有安置機構的困境，因為這些安置機構的困境會展現、投射在他們服務的小孩身上，現在的困境是有關於照顧人力比的部分，目前我們的規定依設置標準第二十二之一條，不管是保育員或是生輔員的照顧比是1比6，就是1個大人要照顧6個小朋友，這很困難啦！部長你覺得呢？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我自己一個人顧我們家2個小孩就已經手忙腳亂了，更何況這些來自脆家的小孩，他可能原本就有一些身心狀況是在他的家庭裡面累積出來的，孩子也不願意帶著這些身心狀況去到安置機構，但事實上就是如此，所以這些安置機構裡面的小孩要1比6的狀況下去照顧，我們看到孩子的困境，回過來想我們大人可以怎麼幫忙大人，讓照顧這些小孩的大人可以有一些餘裕？所以我剛剛跟你提到1比6，目前我們的規定生保員24小時都要在，因為這些孩子需要被照顧，可是如果符合勞基法是要聘2到3倍以上的人力去輪班，所以1個機構絕對不會只有1個或2個生保員，不管是保育員或是生輔員，至少要聘3到4個，可是衛福部現在給我們的申請補助項目跟基準只補助1.47倍的人力，而且每一個人只補一萬九，甚至這些補助還設下條件：條件一、機構要自籌一萬八；條件二、機構進住率要高於50%。部長……請次長回答好了，次長你對這個非常熟悉，好不好，次長你聽懂我說的困境了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我了解，完全了解。跟委員報告，確實現在因應脆家安置的部分一定要改善，我跟委員報告，您剛剛所說的目前人力比1比6，我們現在已經準備要把它調為1比4，這是第一個……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下！什麼時候？"],["呂次長建德：什麼時候……"],["陳委員培瑜：我很開心聽到這個。"],["呂次長建德：我們現在正在修子法，跟委員報告，其實之前我跟衛環委員會有去南投那邊……"],["陳委員培瑜：是、是，是那個陳綢兒少家園那邊……"],["呂次長建德：陳綢兒少家園那邊，我看了說實在的，那些孩子用1比6真的根本不可能照顧。"],["陳委員培瑜：是啊、是啊！"],["呂次長建德：所以回來我跟部長報告，部長也很支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：1比4嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，這是第一個，1比4……"],["陳委員培瑜：給我一個時間點，讓我們好想像，還是之後辦公室再找你們討論好不好？我們辦公室再找你們討論。"],["呂次長建德：好，可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，再來。"],["呂次長建德：另外第二個就是我們現在會引導地方政府趕快訂安置費用的分級補助標準，分級補助……"],["陳委員培瑜：分級分類我等一下會跟你討論，沒錯，好，再來。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK。另外一個就是專業服務費，如果一般性個案是2萬元，但是特殊需求者我們現在要提高到3萬8,898元，就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是你要叫地方政府出的嗎？你訂一個法然後它要出這個錢？"],["呂次長建德：我們這邊會……"],["陳委員培瑜：還是你們衛福部補助？"],["呂次長建德：對，安置費用是地方政府編列。"],["陳委員培瑜：對啦，事情就是這樣，就是因為他是……"],["呂次長建德：所以現在委員你的意思是可能中央這邊也要一起幫忙大家，還是……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，因為我知道財劃法之後一定下去，就是明年開始。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：財劃法下去之後，地方政府有沒有人意識到這個事情？"],["呂次長建德：委員你也了解，財劃法下去地方真的……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，但是我覺得我們要強力協助地方政府真的可以達成你剛剛說的這個很美好的目標，不過我認為補助人數、補助金額還有減少不必要的補助條件，你剛剛規定它要自籌一萬八，然後進住率還要高於50%，我覺得這個要調整啦！"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼進住率……因為我們希望孩子們是回到類家的狀態比較多，然後離開機構越來越多，我們是往這個方向推進不是嗎？我們等次長跟幕僚討論一下。"],["呂次長建德：好，報告委員，那個簡單，委員剛剛提到就是50%的部分，這個我覺得也不合理，所以我們覺得這部分會研議把它刪除，這是第一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了！"],["呂次長建德：另外第二點您剛剛所說的，沒錯，地方政府是負責安置費用，但是剛剛說的專業服務費的補助，這是中央，我們中央會來支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我覺得這個很……"],["呂次長建德：但是地方也必須要有一些成效，我們也不能說……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我知道、這我知道，我認同，所以我們後續來討論細節，我今天先把問題提出來，但是我很開心先聽到1比6變1比4。"],["呂次長建德：好，可以，我們後續再跟委員辦公室這邊來……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，再來分級分類，下一張，就是我剛剛跟你說的，分級分類你們確實現在有做嘛，你們有分正常或輕微或是明顯心理障礙或是嚴重心理，說實話這個分類很rough，它其實可能也不適用於現場，而且我認為這個分類可能沒有辦法太仔細照顧我們的孩子，甚至我想要拜託次長你回去研議，你剛剛跟我說1比6要變成1比4，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是說實話，我們如果遇到從脆家出來的孩子有嚴重的身心狀況的，其實1比4的loading都還是太重，對不對？你可以想像嘛！"],["呂次長建德：嗯，對啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：而且當有一個特殊狀況情緒的孩子發作的時候，通常可能兩、三個生保員就要跑去照顧這個小孩。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：雖然他們同時間在機構裡面的那個人力比是符合的，但是因為為了照顧這個小孩，其他小孩就會被落在一邊，這是現場很不得不的狀況。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：這也不是生保員的錯，所以我這邊要強力的要求，我們辦公室很願意陪衛福部一起討論，甚至跟很多民間團體討論，一個是分級分類必須要兼顧到所謂心理情緒行為問題的小孩，假設機構裡面有報出來很多這樣的案，我所謂的報就是陳報這個數字上來，陳報這個數字上來給地方政府、給衛福部，我們要如何去研議協助這些收了很多身心狀況比較大的孩子的機構？因為他們的人力比確實就必須要個案性的調整。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是地方政府有沒有這個意識？我相信從衛福部開始很重要，因為衛福部訂定相關法律規範讓地方政府去遵守，我覺得是重要的，我們有沒有機會往這個方向去看？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，完全同意這個方向。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["呂次長建德：確實我那時候去看，有些孩子說實話是難置兒，他甚至把冷氣整個拔掉了，我看了覺得那個怎麼可能是1比4？可能1比1可能都……"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["呂次長建德：所以我完全同意這個方向，我們會全力來把這個安置機構的教養環境好好處理好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。還是要回到那一張，CRC公約說我們要照顧這些，這些都是國家的小孩，他只是家庭暫時出了狀況，有一天我們都希望孩子可以回到原生家庭。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：那關於安置機構其實我們還有很多問題，時間有限，我尊重主席，我們後續還有很多安置機構的狀況再一起討論，謝謝主席。"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，謝謝部長。","委員會在這邊做宣告：我們大約12點40分會休息到下午2點，等一下的質詢到張雅琳委員質詢完畢之後就進行休息，謝謝。","接下來請李彥秀委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"162034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24cd191806ec682c361b5ee1b3bf308d2ea3426710e0a50eed19376995a466ca645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:09:16 - 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紐約時報說搭乘古老車廂進入昌裕的高山這個就是他們的一個介紹"},{"start":59.963,"end":85.436,"text":"那我們做這一條阿里山鐵路那現在林鐵處也很用心他還打造了新的車廂一個叫做福生號一個叫做喜悅號那當然他是委託給旅行社來管理所以他有獨特的一個管理方式那至少新的車廂跟傳統的一個車廂有這個新舊的一個感受所以你搭怎樣的車廂去阿里山"},{"start":86.657,"end":106.159,"text":"就會有不同的感受但是我要跟部長說因為我們在兩個禮拜前我們去阿里山我們也是坐福生號去做考察那我想跟部長說我有幾個感受第一個就是說我們在拼國際旅客的這件事情力道不足"},{"start":106.9,"end":129.759,"text":"那怎樣的力道不足呢?我想要跟部長分享一下在113年,也就是2024年,去年的時候來阿里山的遊客日本人佔了131萬人韓國人有100萬人那剩下印度、馬來西亞,甚至是新加坡,新加坡還蠻多的,有40萬人"},{"start":131.055,"end":160.004,"text":"那如果既然這樣的話明明有這麼多外國的旅客願意來到坐阿里山鐵路然後來阿里山旅遊的話但是我們看到那些告示牌目前有的就只有中文跟英文是就是有中文跟英文那你相對的喔你去日本你去看日本的旅遊景點我有給大家注意差不多都四種語言就是日文他們的日文中文英文韓文"},{"start":161.124,"end":177.414,"text":"你的四種語言所以基本上你光是那一種告示的你語言的一個展現就可以讓這一些外國的旅客他們覺得親近覺得來這裡玩是很容易透過一些告示他就知道他要去哪裡所以我覺得這部分我們可以來加強"},{"start":178.354,"end":199.842,"text":"部長,我想非常謝謝委員的提醒,那其實阿里山我覺得是一個非常值得國人去的,也非常值得國外的旅客。那有關於語言上面來講,除了您剛才講的這些,不管在折頁或是在導覽的解說,可以有更多的語言方面,其實我已經跟林業百會署特別提到,"},{"start":200.382,"end":220.924,"text":"有很多景點我們手機有沒有一照的時候可以跳出它的後面的整個背景說明那這樣的話又更能多元化部長你們的官方網站有有日文官方網站有很多景點的說明你看林保署他們做的這一本哇這個日文版的精裝版非常的漂亮然後裡面都是日文是"},{"start":222.185,"end":249.941,"text":"這本也做得很好我現在就是說進到原子裡面去遊覽的時候很多景點都說明有一些用QR code的方式能夠用手機掃描帶出不同國家語言的版本這樣的話讓旅客更能夠了解這個是一個方式但是我覺得幾個基本語言我們一定會把它放進去我是覺得直接做硬體的告示是更好比方說你把日文放上去我覺得重要的那些多過語言的告示我想我們會再來做那你可以再透過APP然後讓其他的可能是"},{"start":251.741,"end":272.249,"text":"旅客相對比較少可是他們的語言也是需要所以我覺得這個都是說你要怎麼把它做到更親近讓大家更適合來旅遊那我在考察的時候我有找文化部來事實上文化部每一年他針對阿里山森林鐵路要進去聯合國的世界文化資產他們編了兩千萬"},{"start":275.79,"end":280.962,"text":"編了兩千萬那我跟部長說雖然這裡沒有辦法把文化錄叫來問但是我跟部長說這個兩千萬沒差錢"},{"start":284.082,"end":306.008,"text":"因為我們都知道台灣不是聯合國的會員國那你要進入世界文化資產的話就要在聯合國的這個文化的一個委員會要提案但是連提案的資格都沒有所以我要跟部長說在於阿里山鐵路要爭取世界文化遺產我們擁有最好的機會是怎樣就是因為這一個森林鐵路是日本人蓋的"},{"start":307.847,"end":325.607,"text":"日本人蓋這個森林潛入當年是為了運送木材現在我們把它轉型它變成一個觀光一個重要的觀光的火車我們應該跟日本合作由日本主動來申請世界文化遺產向聯合國申請跨國世界文化遺產"},{"start":326.328,"end":351.085,"text":"那為什麼會有所謂的跨國呢?我們知道阿里山鐵路過去把阿里山這裡的Hinoki載去日本所以包括日本明治神宮的大鳥居也是阿里山的Hinoki包括日本的法隆寺裡面的建築物也是阿里山的Hinoki還有包括在沖繩日本的這個首里城也是用阿里山的Hinoki"},{"start":357.049,"end":373.26,"text":"幾乎都是過去這一條鐵路把它載到了日本所以你透過這樣整個檜木的一個文化的一個延伸跟這個鐵路現在這個鐵路比現在世界文化遺產在印度他的大吉嶺的高山鐵路他的高山鐵路"},{"start":375.782,"end":397.138,"text":"2100公尺 我們阿里山高山鐵路是從海平面40公尺直接攀升到2200多公尺 比它還要高所以我們更有資格變成世界文化遺產 但是我們卻卡在這個國際因素所以我們應該要跟日本合作 為日本來興慶讓我們可以叩關聯合國 然後讓阿里山鐵路變成世界文化遺產"},{"start":399.73,"end":414.801,"text":"謝謝委員這樣的一個建議我們會去評估它的可行性不過我要跟委員報告的就是在沒有加入世界遺產這是一件事情其實我們跟日本跟瑞士、印度、英國還有一些斯洛伐克等幾個國家有跟他的高山鐵路高山鐵路"},{"start":416.642,"end":434.997,"text":"我覺得透過這個方式 其實也讓更多人了解到台灣的安全我們跟日本的黑山鐵路嘛 跟瑞士的高山鐵路 都是這個叫姊妹鐵路這個都是我們努力的方向所以我現在要說的就是說 第一個整個阿里山旅遊 透過阿里山鐵路的旅遊它的告示應該要走國際化第二個 我們應該要嘗試的把它的"},{"start":439.44,"end":450.33,"text":"阿里山鐵路背後代表著歷史意涵跟文化意涵所以要大家更加的琢磨我們才有辦法來擴寬世界文化遺產好 這我們來努力好 然後來下一個問題一樣來講這個豬的問題啦豬的問題我覺得剛剛張委員質詢 雖然他人不在這邊但是我覺得"},{"start":459.719,"end":469.366,"text":"他這樣質詢對部長比較不公平因為主要整個食安也好整個檢疫的過程他就是一個用科學統計的一個計算嘛"},{"start":490.74,"end":496.623,"text":"但是部長我要跟你說,現在DMA介紹說獎金要一百塊,看似對豬農收益好,但是未必是這樣,因為最近不知道怎麼樣"},{"start":507.33,"end":531.197,"text":"那個Deeper,Deeper就是那個小豬仔小豬仔,他的死亡率有比較高價格很高,這個小豬仔價格很高咧最近整個Deeper新聞館,他們的抵控率感覺比較不夠所以死亡率又變高所以對豬農而言說,他這個97塊看起來有利潤的全部給他的Deeper吃牙"},{"start":532.357,"end":540.02,"text":"所以部長你有沒有注意到這一塊 那要怎麼樣去協助豬籠說 本來應該端午節這肉粽子要賣了 介紹應該要賺錢的時候 我這坡沒賺到 因為這坡的介紹太慢我跟委員 委員報告 現在的地價我們是根據市場機制 我們沒有特別去押它"},{"start":551.525,"end":573.963,"text":"那其中一個非常重要的有人說以前豬肉才70幾塊我說我們現在養豬的成本是越來越高包括飼料包括您剛才講的這些豬仔本身也價格越來越高我前幾天像昨天我也到豬場去了解現在有一些有關的下痢的疾病那這個部分我也請專家團在了解現在好像"},{"start":574.804,"end":585.691,"text":"那個死亡的比例有一點異常啦所以我們希望說這兩件事就綁在一起嘛死亡的比例有一點異常所以變成牠的地盤的成本高豬籠牠要取得這個小豬仔牠的成本就提高就吃掉了牠最後銷售的成本所以我說這個東西我們也要讓消費者知道其實我們基本上是一個很好的豬的台灣豬肉一個很好的豬的品質"},{"start":603.163,"end":618.831,"text":"那相對的在這個節慶的過程中這個價錢是一個合理的價錢不是說偏高啦這個部分我想我們也會做加強的一個說明好 那部長我再問最後一題就是5月19號的時候你跟我有說我們行政院接下來會討論嘉義的查改廠的一個進度那我想要請教部長說那討論的結論是怎樣呢"},{"start":625.874,"end":650.502,"text":"現在一個問題就是梅山蝦經過探勘它的地質不穩定所以變成說那個腸子又可能會產生一些變化地質的不穩定是怎樣不穩定以做探勘醫療可能會滑動啦所以是不夠水保不是水保就是本身地質的特性就容易滑動啦"},{"start":651.582,"end":677.33,"text":"所以會變成有一些你如果在這邊做廠的話會有一些困擾所以我也在請我們的查開廠這邊在做怎麼樣的規劃部長剛剛講這個問題就很大這個就是我那天您問了以後我請他們來然後他們也把最近的這些勘查的報告跟我講那我覺得那個我們不能說地質不穩定然後硬去蓋一個東西所以看看說有沒有辦法在我聽起來我抓"},{"start":680.531,"end":707.397,"text":"會緊張會煩惱我看我們要找一天來加以和我們縣政府這邊大家要討論一下因為現在整個嘉義的茶葉包括說我們現在甚至咖啡類我們目標不變但是現在就是說有沒有辦法先成立我們的試驗地先不要先看看用成株的或是什麼方式然後先把那個廠區先把它設起來看看可不可以用這樣的分階段來做"},{"start":708.717,"end":723.164,"text":"看起來現在有一點就要重頭因為你說如果來一塊地質不一定是不是涉及牽涉到又要找新的廠主還是怎樣這個問題就會變得說又跑回頭所以我覺得這顆零 我覺得你要花一點時間我們一起再跟委員來說明一下還是我經紀人會我排考察的方式可能麻煩部長你就要來不然這個問題這樣起來會變沒概念我瞭解好不好 不然你再找一座來我教他 大家來討論一下好不好"},{"start":737.892,"end":738.013,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1125,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時9分）有請農業部部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，本席想透過今天的質詢和部長聊一下阿里山鐵路，因為阿里山鐵路是農業部林保署林鐵處主管，不是交通部。阿里山鐵路也被紐約時報報導，2025年推薦全球最值得去的52個地點，是52個聖地之一，甚至紐約時報還說是搭乘古老車廂進入蒼鬱的高山，這是他們的介紹。","對這一條阿里山鐵路，現在林鐵處也很用心，還打造新的車廂，一個叫做福森號，一個叫做栩悅號，當然，他們是委託旅行社管理，所以有獨特的管理方式，但新的車廂和傳統的車廂有新舊不同的感受，看你搭什麼樣的車廂去阿里山，會有不同的感受。因為我們兩個禮拜前去阿里山，當時就是搭福森號去考察，本席想告訴部長幾個感受，第一個，就我們拚國際旅客這件事情，其實力道不足。怎麼力道不足呢？本席想和部長分享一下。","113年，也就是2024（去）年的時候，造訪阿里山的遊客當中，日本人占131萬人，韓國人有100萬人，剩下的有印度、馬來西亞，甚至是新加坡，新加坡的遊客還滿多的，有40萬人。明明有這麼多外國旅客願意搭阿里山鐵路到阿里山旅遊，但是我們看到的那些告示牌，目前只有中文和英文。相對的，你去看日本的旅遊景點，本席也有注意，他們大概都是四種語言，就是日文、中文、英文、韓文。所以基本上光是告示牌的語言展現，就可以讓這些外國旅客覺得親近，覺得來這裡玩是很容易的，透過告示牌，他們就知道可以去哪裡玩，所以本席覺得這部分我們可以加強。部長，這個應該……"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的提醒，我覺得阿里山是一個非常值得國人去的地方，也非常值得國外旅客去觀光。有關語言方面，除了您剛才說的這些，不管是折頁或是導覽、解說，都可以加上更多的語言。其實我已經特別向林業保育署提到，有很多景點，如果我們的手機一照就可以跳出背景說明，這樣更能多元化，這個部分……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你們的官方網站有日文。"],["陳部長駿季：對。很多景點的說明……"],["蔡委員易餘：你看林保署做的這一本導覽，這是日文的精裝版，非常漂亮，裡面都是日文，這本也做的很好。"],["陳部長駿季：是。我現在是說進到園區遊覽的時候，有些景點的說明可以用QR 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謝謝"},{"start":6.502,"end":12.026,"text":"委員好部長好首先要請教我們葉秉成次長因為性評的疑慮現在是送交教育部的性評會要來進行調查那我今天要請教的是因為外界也很關心我們看一下現在教育部性評會的成員名單首先性評會的主委就是我們部長就是部長您再來我們次長"},{"start":31.499,"end":54.995,"text":"也是性評會委員包括署長以及兩位司長一共有五位我們教育部內部的人員都是我們性評會的成員而其中主委就是部長所以外界會關切送到教育部的性評會來調查他是不是就代表的中立跟客觀呢目前教育部的性評會在調查小處的部分是不是都是外部委員"},{"start":57.134,"end":71.716,"text":"跟我們報告是的調查小組有外部委員但是調查小組的結果還是要來開性評論所以我現在要求教育部依據其實也是我們教育部網站上面的資料就是我們在"},{"start":72.837,"end":82.985,"text":"性平的這個調查程序上呢什麼叫做重大瑕疵教育部也給各界一個說明其實其中呢依照我們的行政程序法32、33條第一個32條是在講說如果呢在調查程序當中當事人"},{"start":91.152,"end":105.228,"text":"他應該要迴避而我認為本案其實教育部就是當事人所以包含了部長次長司長都應該要迴避第二如果依照行政程序法第33條他在講說那公務員如果你有這個"},{"start":106.75,"end":110.873,"text":"職務執行有偏頗之餘者就是有這樣的一律的人你也可以申請迴避這個我在看啊部長因為成員裡面有兩位司長這個學特司甚至是葉次長督導的你要司長"},{"start":124.022,"end":127.844,"text":"來調查甚至最後他可能沒參與調查但他之後可能有處置次長這個在職場上面有違我們正常的經驗法則所以我認為在性評會裡面我們教育部包含了部長次長署長兩位司長我們五位成員都應該要迴避部長可不可以承諾"},{"start":145.29,"end":170.409,"text":"我想 確實在這個利害關係人裡面他是應該要迴避的 這個我是可以承諾的好 我覺得我們一定要以最高的標準甚至優於法規的最高標準來進行接下來的性品調查才能夠重新贏得社會各界的信任因為你們是我們中華民國台灣教育的最高主管機關一定要用最嚴謹的態度來看待"},{"start":172.39,"end":193.11,"text":"接下來呢有關於台大的案件還是有一個部分我必須要跟部長來討論因為在監察院的報告當中其實至今我們能夠看到的報告就是監察院這一份報告監察院的報告去年七月份就出來了裡面的第四頁我認為有一個非常大的問題"},{"start":195.513,"end":207.898,"text":"裡面監察院調查的時候經由訪談他指出這一位當事學生他多次跟學校的心理師說拜託不要再叫我去找宿舍輔導員了結果心理師卻跟當事學生說"},{"start":213,"end":219.783,"text":"這個輔導員啊他是離你最靠近而且安全的角色言下之意是說你就去找輔導員沒有問題再來他除了叫學生去找輔導員以外在監察院調查裡面還說台大有一個工作人員B員他是誰我們不知道但是他有三次聯繫了"},{"start":235.874,"end":245.78,"text":"宿舍輔導員也就是可能的加害人聯繫他做什麼呢要這個宿舍輔導員去多關心當事學生請可能的加害人去關切可能的受害人請郎師去關心被害學生這如果在其他的師生的性平安間是這樣喔"},{"start":260.236,"end":264.498,"text":"假設他是狼當時在調查當中嘛假設他是狼就是引狼入室啊部長 你在看到這個文字你有沒有覺得非常的奇怪非常的不恰當這是發生在台大校園裡面的事情喔這個我認為甚至不到性評會這個是重大的行政疏失"},{"start":283.387,"end":293.297,"text":"非常重大的行政疏失台大的校園 這是監察院的報告我講的不是性評會的報告監察院報告去年七月就告訴我們有這樣的情況了結果呢到現在我們沒有去詢問說台大為什麼做這樣的處置"},{"start":303.157,"end":315.566,"text":"也有可能當時的心理師他跟這個月性平案件要保密嘛也許他們沒有收到這個相關的資訊也許是這樣造成了不當的處置但是這確實是不當那如誠如部長您今天受訪講的我們要檢討並且我們要避免同樣的情勢下一次再次發生對吧但是依我在看台大這個處置這麼大的疏失到今天沒有被檢討"},{"start":333.666,"end":355.453,"text":"同樣的事情就絕對還會再發生你怎麼會叫可能的加害人去關切可能的受害人而且這個台大的B員台大的工作人員他是什麼職務他是不是長官所謂的希望他多關心被害學生的這個希望他當中有沒有權利的關係"},{"start":357.81,"end":375.274,"text":"這個一定要去調查清楚所以部長現在我們案件也送信評會就是要去重新檢視台大的程序但是在我們已知的監察院公開在網路上面全國國人都可以看到的報告當中這一段的描述我認為已經明確的不當了"},{"start":378.072,"end":389.922,"text":"所以一定要要求台大如果有行政疏失 行政不當而教育部沒有要求台大檢討的話部長 那就是我們教育部的督導不周就是我們教育部的督導疏失了我們一定要去把它調查清楚 國會部長"},{"start":394.648,"end":418.86,"text":"可以的我想謝謝委員台大這樣的一個處理我想他在行政上確實有許多我們應該要更進一步的去理解了解他的一個可能造成的傷害部長我們要再積極我們是最高主管機關這一份報告我剛剛講了去年七月就公開在網路上了至今台大沒有被檢討這當中有沒有行政責任信憑會是信憑會學校有行政責任"},{"start":424.689,"end":435.499,"text":"誰去要求輔導員 三次叫他去關切學生 誰一定要調查清楚 好不好好 這個性平案件真的全台灣都非常關切尤其是在校園裡面很遺憾我們看到東華大學也發生了性侵案件"},{"start":447.062,"end":469.779,"text":"以及以性侵來起訴那他是師對師學校裡面的男性老師性侵女教師這個案件目前同時性評會重啟調查因為他司法已經起訴了以及在司法當中但我今天要請教教育部的是因為他是師對師適用的是我們性評工作法"},{"start":471.411,"end":497.752,"text":"的第十二第十三條第十二條是說這一個性騷跟性侵害案件同等適用十三條是說雇主也就是以這案來說東華大學校方應該要避免申訴人受性騷擾或性侵情形再度發生你有責任要避免情況再度發生而且你要有相關的措施要有所作為十三之一條"},{"start":499.517,"end":518.292,"text":"就是說過主你是有權利得暫時停止或被申訴人之職務就是你可以讓他停止的我現在想要請問教育部有沒有去了解東華大學在這個案件當中有沒有以性供法來處置有沒有相關的措施"},{"start":523.677,"end":542.347,"text":"高華大學有沒有盡到避免這個受害的申訴人持續受到可能的危險跟委員報告這個5月24當時加害者已經被這一個在調查期間這一個停職半年那詳細的是不是請這一個市長來"},{"start":542.967,"end":561.684,"text":"5月24號就是前幾天前幾天 對學校依照他們的相關程序組成了調查小組這個也在啟動所謂的性評那在性評的調查過程當中已經決意先把這位教師給停職的處分好 非常好這一個案件發生的時間是什麼時候"},{"start":564.724,"end":585.539,"text":"跟委員報告這個因為他當初在處理上面其實這個好去年八月起訴但是這位老師直到今年也就是現在五月份才被停職部長你知道嗎在學校裡面甚至是有學生主動發起"},{"start":588.214,"end":612.842,"text":"護衛隊來保護這位女性教師因為有長達從去年八月到今年五月長達也是將近一年的時間這一個已經性侵起訴的男性教師都還在學校裡面那女性教師她在出入的時候她都要盡量去避免有機會去碰觸到"},{"start":614.562,"end":640.822,"text":"所以我還是想要再次提醒教育部我們的督導責任我認為應當可以更加積極因為這個案件在法規上面我覺得很明確適用信工法了那東華大學如果可以早一點開始開啟這個會議的話也許我們會早一點做出停職的措施那這個教師的環境可以早一點"},{"start":642.335,"end":660.947,"text":"比較安全我們學校老師的安全性平的環境不應該是到最後由學生要來發起互惠甚至學生去幫老師送便當學生看不下去了站出來保護老師希望我們教育部可以更積極最後一個我"},{"start":661.727,"end":688.216,"text":"抱歉主席給我一點時間一樣是性侵案件台中幼兒園發生一起四歲的女童被跆拳道教練性侵案件那因為去年台北市培諾米達幼兒園性侵案狼屍案之後我們跟教育部一直在討論要去修正相關的法規為什麼因為在台北市培諾米達案件當中當時大家最沒有辦法接受的是家長已經知道性侵的情勢了"},{"start":689.116,"end":715.943,"text":"但是要去調監視器要甚至家長要看調查報告都百般的被阻撓家長不能看報告這讓家長非常的惡賜傷害所以我們今年一月教育部你們已經修正相關的規定跟法規其中總總這有好幾條我認為最重要的就是我們增加了受害幼童家長可以調閱調查報告的規定所以我現在想要請教教育部有沒有去了解台中這個案件我們有沒有讓家長看調查報告"},{"start":719.617,"end":732.18,"text":"有沒有適用心法這有適用心法但是這個詳細的情況是不是容我們跟台中市完成了比較確定的了解之後今天之內跟您回報好 請務必確定我也要感謝委員修了兩個辦法還有檢核表也都給了最後在這個兩週內我們還會給他一個運用的手冊所以四件事都有照委員這個方向"},{"start":743.902,"end":758.028,"text":"我們修法是為了保護孩子 保護家長所以拜託 我不要再看到有家長想要看報告卻被百般阻擾的情況請你們務必要了解法規有沒有被落實 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時2分）謝謝主席，我請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。葉丙成次長現在因為性平疑慮送交教育部性平會進行調查，所以我今天要來請教，畢竟外界也很關心。我們看一下現在教育部性平會的成員名單，首先性平會的主委就是部長您，再來，次長也是性平會委員，還包括署長以及兩位司長，一共有5位教育部內部人員都是性平會成員，而其中的主委就是部長，所以外界會關切送到教育部性平會調查是不是就代表中立跟客觀呢？目前教育部性平會在調查小組部分是否都為外部委員？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：調查小組有外部委員？"],["鄭部長英耀：3位都是外部。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是針對調查小組的結果還是要開性平會。所以我現在要求教育部依據……其實也是教育部網站上的資料，對於在性平調查程序上什麼叫做重大瑕疵，教育部有給各界一個說明，其中包括依照行政程序法第三十二條、第三十三條規定。第一，第三十二條講的是如果在調查程序中，當事人應該迴避，而我認為在本案中，其實教育部就是當事人，所以包含部長、次長、司長都應該迴避。第二，依照行政程序法第三十三條，公務員職務執行有偏頗之虞者──也就是有這樣疑慮的人，也可以申請迴避。部長，依我來看，因為成員裡面有兩位司長，學特司甚至是葉次長督導的，你要司長調查……即便他沒參與調查，但最後可能處置次長，這點有違職場上正常的經驗法則。所以我認為在性平會裡面，包含教育部部長、次長、署長、兩位司長，五位成員都應該迴避。部長可不可以承諾？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，在利害關係人的部分，他是應該要迴避的，這個我可以承諾。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。本席覺得我們一定要以最高的標準，甚至是優於法規的最高標準進行接下來的性平調查，這樣才能夠重新贏得社會各界的信任。因為你們是中華民國臺灣教育的最高主管機關，一定要用最嚴謹的態度看待。接下來是有關臺大的案件，還有一個部分本席必須和部長討論。","因為在監察院的報告當中，其實至今我們能夠看到的報告就是監察院這一份。監察院的報告去年7月份就出來了，在裡面的第4頁，本席認為有一個非常大的問題。監察院調查的時候，經由訪談指出這位當事學生多次告訴學校的心理師「拜託，不要再叫我去找宿舍輔導員」，結果心理師卻和當事學生說「輔導員是離你靠近且安全的角色」，言下之意是說，你就去找輔導員，沒有問題。","再來，他除了叫學生去找輔導員以外，監察院的調查報告還說，臺大有一個工作人員B員，他是誰？我們不知道，但是他三次聯繫宿舍輔導員，也就是可能的加害人。聯繫他做什麼呢？要這個宿舍輔導員多關心當事學生，這是請可能的加害人去關切可能的受害人，就像請狼師去關心被害學生，如果是其他師生的性平案件，就是這樣的情形！而且當時還在調查當中，假設他是狼，這就是引狼入室啊！","部長，你看到這文字有沒有覺得非常奇怪？真的非常不恰當！這是發生在臺大校園的事情，本席甚至認為不歸性平會處理，因為這是非常重大的行政疏失。這是監察院的報告，不是性平會的報告，監察院的報告去年7月就告訴我們，臺大校園有這樣的情況，結果呢？到現在教育部還沒有去詢問臺大為什麼做這樣的處置。也有可能是當時的心理師覺得性平案件要保密嘛！或是他們沒有收到相關資訊，也許是因為這樣造成不當處置，但這確實是不當。","誠如部長今天受訪時說的，我們要檢討，而且要避免同樣的情事再次發生，對吧？但是依本席來看，臺大這個處置是這麼大的疏失，可是到今天都沒有被檢討，那麼同樣的事情絕對還會再發生。你怎麼會叫可能的加害人去關切受害人？而且這個臺大的工作人員B員是什麼職務？他是不是長官？所謂的希望他多關心被害學生，當中有沒有權力關係？這一定要去調查清楚。","所以部長，現在案件送性平會了，就是要重新檢視臺大的程序，但是監察院公開在網路上的已知報告當中，這是全國國人都可以看到的，根據這一段描述，本席認為已經很明確，處置的確不當，所以一定要要求臺大。如果有行政疏失、行政不當，可是教育部卻沒有要求臺大檢討的話，部長，那就是教育部督導不周、就是教育部的督導疏失。我們一定要去把事情調查清楚，可不可以？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：可以的，謝謝委員。臺大這樣的處理，在行政上確實有許多地方我們應該做更進一步的調查，了解可能造成的傷害。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，我們要再積極一點，因為教育部是最高主管機關。本席剛剛說的這一份報告，去年7月就在網路上公開，但是至今臺大沒有被檢討有無行政責任！性平會是性平會，但學校有行政責任，誰去要求輔導員？還三次叫他去關切學生，是誰？你們一定要調查清楚，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個性平案件，全臺灣真的都非常關切，尤其是發生在校園裡面。很遺憾，我們看到東華大學也發生了性侵案件，並且已經以性侵罪起訴，這是師對師，是學校的男性老師性侵女教師。這個案件，目前性平會也同時重啟調查，因為已經起訴了，正在司法程序當中。","但本席今天要請教教育部的是，因為是師對師，適用的性別工作平等法第十二條、第十三條。第十二條是指性騷和性侵害案件同等適用；第十三條是針對雇主。以這一案來說就是東華大學，校方應該避免申訴人受性騷擾或性侵情形再度發生，也就是校方有責任避免這樣的情況再度發生，而且要有相關措施，要有所作為。第十三之一條是雇主有權力得暫時停止被申訴人之職務，也就是學校可以讓他停職。","本席現在想要請問，教育部有沒有去了解，東華大學在這個案件當中有沒有以性工法處置？有沒有相關措施？東華大學有沒有盡到避免受害申訴人持續遭受可能危險的措施？"],["鄭部長英耀：5月24日，當事的加害者在調查期間已經被停職半年。詳細情形是不是請司長說明？"],["吳委員沛憶：5月24日，就是前幾天？"],["廖司長高賢：對，前幾天。學校依照相關程序組成調查小組，也啟動性平調查。在性平調查過程當中，已經決議先對這位教師做停職處分。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，非常好。這個案件是什麼時候發生的？"],["廖司長高賢：因為當初在處理時，其實這個……"],["吳委員沛憶：去年8月起訴，但是這位老師直到今年，也就是現在、5月份才被停職。部長，你知道嗎？在學校裡面，甚至是由學生主動發起護衛隊保護這位女性教師，因為從去年8月到今年5月，長達將近一年的時間，這一個已經因性侵被起訴的男性教師還在學校裡面，所以那位女性教師出入學校的時候，都要儘量避免碰觸到。","所以本席還是要再次提醒教育部，因為你們有督導責任，本席認為應當更加積極，尤其這個案件就法規來說，本席覺得很明確是適用性工法。東華大學如果可以早一點召開會議，也許可以早一點做出停職措施，這個教師的工作環境也可以早日比較安全。學校老師的安全、性平的環境，不應該是由學生發起護衛，甚至是由學生幫老師送便當，因為學生實在是看不下去了，才會站出來保護老師，希望教育部可以更積極。","最後，抱歉，請主席給本席一點時間，一樣是性侵案件，臺中幼兒園發生一起4歲女童被跆拳道教練性侵案件。因為去年臺北市發生狼師性侵案之後，我們和教育部一直在討論要修正相關法規，為什麼？因為在臺北市培諾米達案件當中，當時大家最沒有辦法接受的，就是家長已經知道有性侵的情事，所以要去調監視器，甚至是家長要看調查報告也被百般阻撓，不讓家長看報告，這讓家長覺得被二次傷害。","所以今年1月，教育部已經修正相關規定和法規，其中本席認為最重要的，就是增加受害幼童家長可以調閱調查報告的規定。所以本席現在想要請教，教育部有沒有去了解臺中這個案件？有沒有讓家長看調查報告？有沒有適用新法？"],["彭署長富源：這有適用新法，但詳細情況是不是容我們和臺中市確定、了解之後，今天之內向您回報？"],["吳委員沛憶：好，請務必確定。"],["彭署長富源：我也要感謝委員修了兩個辦法，還有檢核表也都給了。最後，這兩週內，我們還會給他們一個運用手冊，所以四件事都有照委員指示的方向處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們修法是為了保護孩子、保護家長，所以拜託，本席不要再看到有家長想要看報告卻被百般阻撓的情況，請你們務必了解法規有沒有被落實，好不好？謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，官員請回座。","接下來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b954356de8278c71afe3e41e2f2b0d30a3426710e0a50eed31f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:03:51 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Your Customer,對,這個程序嘛,沒錯吧是的有,有這個規定齁那詢問客戶呢,是不是,詢問客戶是否是新聞上參與罷免民進黨立委王定宇的青年軍,這個是KYC嗎?"},{"start":38.903,"end":53.573,"text":"這當然不會是我們金管會的,我也看到這個新聞,我也覺得這個...還有詢問客戶是否參與罷免民進黨利益亡定,這個是KYC嗎?謝謝文給我們澄清的結果,我們金管會不可能去做這些事情不可能嗎?"},{"start":54.153,"end":68.583,"text":"但是我們查了一下相關的報導金管會並沒有做出任何的澄清啊你有看到這個新聞嗎這個營業人士說來來我把這個過程講一下這個有新聞嘛你有看到了喔議員也有出來開這個記者會說金管會查水表喔"},{"start":72.465,"end":96.67,"text":"當然不可能 我再重申只是我們現在的從業人員常常把那規定就是說金管會規定的他是說短短七天內接到原大證券林森分公司許信研究員兩通電話對方先以例行更新客戶個人資料為由進行詢問然後詢問那位胡先生是不是新聞上參與罷免民進黨立委王定宇的青年金然後在追問以後還表示"},{"start":98.111,"end":110.623,"text":"營業員表示此為因應金管會要求進行的調查你們沒有做任何的澄清我們有太多太多的消息我們都要澄清的話"},{"start":112.845,"end":122.132,"text":"非常非常簡單的常識問題金管會怎麼可能去規定這個事情我事實上對金管會的正式的澄清絕不可能我們印象覺得政府機關都是守法守紀一般來說不會做那種很奇怪的事情"},{"start":132.159,"end":150.502,"text":"近年來很多的機關都非常的所謂的中立機關 獨立機關都非常不中立不獨立所以我們也產生懷疑理論上今晚會也不應該是這樣做啦因為你們還沒有澄清就讓人家覺得是不是一種默認啦當然不會 那我意思就好像我們每天每天這麼多網路上的"},{"start":151.503,"end":174.486,"text":"網民講一些事情我們都要澄清但是那些有的是詐騙集團但是不屑是有一個營業員這樣做的我覺得假設這邊只涉到某家證券公司他應該自己來澄清這件事情你們也應該去了解一下吧他應該自己去釐清說你們的同仁有沒有很多事情就講說都是盡管會規定的你既然已經在那邊澄清了我也想請你給你一個禮拜調查一下結果要送過來"},{"start":175.487,"end":198.155,"text":"不可能我再講說這是我相信你我沒有不相信我只是說你們都沒有做任何動作會讓外界誤以為這個就是你們在做這樣子的任務謝謝委員給我這個機會剛好這邊那也調查一下嘛像你說的那個相關的公司也沒有出來澄清啊他也理論上應該自己站出來說句話不然現在以現在整個這個氛圍這樣子大家都覺得有可能金管會或相關的這個都做這樣的事情"},{"start":198.715,"end":209.67,"text":"好 一個禮拜給我們報告好 謝謝我們來講那個詐騙 詐騙現在的確是很猖獗看不下去 你看114年今年的4月份就是上個月"},{"start":212.016,"end":224.322,"text":"財產的損失是七十六億五千一萬五千多片的這個詐騙數假投資四十億網路購物假買家都是一億一億假交友十三億假交友這個產業已經變成一個產業了而且我們看到那個"},{"start":229.364,"end":245.714,"text":"那個他的這個產值啊就是他詐騙金額都越來越高所以國人實在是受害很深啊這個很多你看很多人也都不學好就裡面投入這個產業其他產業也很慘但是詐騙產業真真正正日上啊案件也一直提高那你看喔你們有提一個"},{"start":246.835,"end":261.609,"text":"金融帳戶預警的這個制度嘛對吧你沒有提這個制度出來嘛所以要聯手這個勸阻這個客戶把資金匯往疑似涉及詐騙的境內帳戶預計在今年五月底完成嘛五月底剩幾天了會完成嗎"},{"start":262.435,"end":274.22,"text":"我們已經完成了我們來看一下你們公布的市井帳戶我們看從110年第一季是4萬多戶在隔一年是7萬多戶112年變9萬6到113年是12萬6到了今年每一年一年看今年是15萬15萬個警示帳戶所以這警示帳戶隨著你們的這個"},{"start":289.728,"end":306.605,"text":"這個煮炸應該有一直加強啦對不對但是警示帳戶越來越多啦但是我們也看到了就是我們自從我們今年年初採取一系列措施以後警示帳戶的成長率已經快接近零成長率接近零嗎114年第一季15萬還是在成長但成長率已經比以前"},{"start":311.704,"end":321.068,"text":"有明顯下降我們是希望他趕快趨近一年所以現在第二季還沒關第一季十五萬第二季一季0.4成長率從原來的大概理論上這種帳戶應該是要下降從原來成長率2.3到0.4"},{"start":330.192,"end":339.015,"text":"我想這個部分我們一定很努力就是我們做得不好我們覺得這個也是大家還要繼續努力詐騙實在是太過猖獗大家都被詐騙過你們二月的時候有邀請各個銀行開會有你訂一個改善機制對吧"},{"start":346.398,"end":364.586,"text":"有兩個監控的指標僅是戶比還有存款帳戶比僅是戶業新增率和同業平均業增率這兩個比例如果一旦從實超過100%就會被打入黑名單嘛對不對那現在已經實施三個月了吧成效好不好我們請局長跟我們說明一下"},{"start":366.127,"end":393.781,"text":"跟委員報告那個我們到目前為止我們有訂定這個指標對然後如果連續兩個月都超過100的話我們會正式發文那我們已經在上個禮拜有正式發文目前有三家金融好請問是哪些銀行哪三家銀行那我們知道但要公告公告以後大家才知道這些銀行是不可以不然這些銀行大家要注意這些銀行來的贓物而且會影響銀行的信用對吧我想我們會適時的時候再對因為我們現在還在你如果公告才有"},{"start":394.541,"end":417.306,"text":"賀祖的效果才有老百姓才知道說這銀行不好這銀行才會更努力的去打詐 阻詐這是未來的一定是這樣那請問是哪些銀行我也不知道說真的哪幾家沒有想這個沒辦法公告是嗎現在我覺得這部分我們還是先從這個控管機制我覺得在這時候當場公佈我覺得這部分我們還要再為什麼 你怕怎樣"},{"start":419.227,"end":443.269,"text":"保護南越銀行我也不知道南越銀行真的我可以再跟委員報告我想在這邊我們暫時先為什麼我們要保護這個不夠努力的銀行或者我們這樣講沒關係因為剛開始嘛二月嘛現在五月剛開始到五月那我們是不是後面可以建立一個制度就是說如果做得不好就是要公告嘛它才有警惕效果嘛銀行也才會更努力嘛"},{"start":443.689,"end":471.381,"text":"未來公告就是我們的武器啦但是因為我們制度實施很多時候呢我們希望我們的指標更穩定更可靠以後呢你公告銀行自然就會更努力啊他也不想上榜變成一個好像詐騙集團都特別favor他們的銀行或者他們特別有詐騙集團去那個對不對我們就是希望說對大眾有幫助一個月76億的詐騙金額啊沒有我想說這部分除了這個部分以外還有什麼措施你們還可以再做的 集體措施"},{"start":471.741,"end":492.246,"text":"其實我們很多就不能夠對外說明啦因為現在詐團也在看我們看你們做什麼道高一尺 謀高一丈對 我們希望我們是謀高一尺 道高一丈但是我的意思是說因為我們有請金融機構我們要用科技打詐 精準打詐意思是說我們不會對外說我們怎麼做"},{"start":493.206,"end":507.514,"text":"因為炸團也是個產業剛剛委員講到實在是太誇張了他會知道我們怎麼做以後他也會因應這個我們理解我們也可以我們可以理解希望你們做得好但是如果做得不好的你給他公告也會有幫助那是絕對的當作未來的方向"},{"start":509.555,"end":517.577,"text":"這也是我們做這個指標很重要的目的啦希望做得好的我們也有獎勵做得不好大家也有利益因為從金融機構下手也是一個很大的幫助因為投資詐騙跟這個實在影響很大然後接著我在本期在3月31號有諮詢我們金管會的OIU的事情"},{"start":529.42,"end":547.692,"text":"就有關這個因為OIU是最大客源是入客大陸限制來台所以客源少了一大塊這個部分那我也說過我們金門發展OIU的優勢有入客有優惠的這個稅收還有小三通現在是唯一兩岸間有大陸客可以來的地方那金管會有那時候給我一個報告就是說"},{"start":550.194,"end":567.429,"text":"金蘭的說法你們的答覆竟然是說如果未來縣市我們地方有提出相關發展方向的話你們會配合評估樂見高雄專區要做了吧高雄專區成功以後可以複製到其他城市喔但我覺得說我們就是因為相信金管會的專業"},{"start":568.85,"end":592.105,"text":"就是說因為地方政府是在比較沒這方面的人力就相信你們專業才是請你們幫我們提供出一個方法看有沒有什麼做法讓比如說金門這樣一個特殊的地方可以OIU可以做得更好或者是可以開始的OIU現在全國都做得不好那我們就說我們的那個地理的位置就請你們提出方法現在你們又給我回答說請建制政府提出發展方案這個好像有點倒過來"},{"start":594.787,"end":609.57,"text":"我們是請你們協助你們的專業我們可以做什麼我覺得真的很佩服委員在對金門鄉親的這些的關懷我的意思是說主要是因為我們這個專區的概念是說由地方政府說我願意提出什麼配套措施那我們"},{"start":610.331,"end":625.218,"text":"地方政府金融專業沒有櫃會的牆他們提的不是你們可以說我們需要配合什麼我們來做嗎我舉例他提供場地提供一些地方的比如說生活或租稅上面他們地方可以做的優惠"},{"start":626.538,"end":644.649,"text":"你們列舉出來我們可以來看地方政府來做哪些是你們主動提出來嘛因為地方政府不知道到底要怎麼做我們也沒有期待像什麼高雄一樣什麼15 16家什麼這個銀行進駐啦至少利用這個地利之便有入客到訪這個優勢怎麼樣來做啦我們樂於就是跟比如說"},{"start":645.615,"end":647.475,"text":"接著請王世堅委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":861,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時3分）謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委好。請問一下，全國任何一家證券公司的分公司，是不是都要執行KYC？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是金融消費者保護法的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：要定期更新客戶資料嘛！know your customer，有這個程序，沒錯吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：有喔！有這個規定喔！如果像新聞所說，詢問客戶是否是參與罷免民進黨立委王定宇的青年軍，這是KYC嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個當然不是金管會的規定，我有看到這個新聞，我也覺得這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：你也有看到吧！還有，詢問客戶是否參與罷免民進黨立委王定宇，這是KYC嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員給我們澄清的機會，金管會不可能做這些事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：不可能嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不可能。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我們查了一下相關報導，金管會並沒有做任何澄清啊！你有看到這個新聞嘛！本席說一下這個過程，這件事有上新聞，你有看到，議員也有出來開記者會，他說金管會查水錶。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不可能，這點我要再三重申。"],["陳委員玉珍：不可能嘛！但是那個先生說……"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的從業人員常常都會說是金管會規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：他是說短短七天內，接到元大證券林森分公司許姓研究員兩通電話，對方先以例行更新客戶個人資料為由進行詢問，然後詢問那位胡先生是不是新聞上參與罷免民進黨立委王定宇的青年軍，當事人追問，營業員還表示此為因應金管會要求進行的調查。你有看到吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個絕對不可能。我想任何在金融市場……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是你們沒有做任何澄清啊！是默認？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，金融市場有太多消息，我們都要澄清的話會不勝困擾，其實這就是非常簡單的常識問題，金管會怎麼可能規定做這樣的事情？"],["陳委員玉珍：事實上本席對金管會的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我在這邊正式澄清。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你正式澄清一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：絕不可能。"],["陳委員玉珍：絕不可能嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們一向覺得政府機關都是守法守紀的，一般來說不會做那種奇怪的事情，但是因為近年所謂的中立機關、獨立機關都非常不中立、不獨立，所以才會讓我們產生懷疑，理論上金管會也不應該這樣做啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得假設……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為你們還沒有澄清，就會讓人家覺得是不是一種默認啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不會。我的意思是說，就好像每天網路上有這麼多網民發表意見，如果我們都要澄清的話，我想……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是那些有的是詐騙集團，這個個案是因為的確有營業員這樣做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得假如指涉到某家證券公司，他們應該自己澄清這件事情，他們應該自己去釐清……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們也應該去了解一下吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們應該自己去釐清，你們的同仁有沒有這麼做？是不是很多事情都說是金管會規定的？"],["陳委員玉珍：既然你已經在這邊澄清，本席也給你一個禮拜的時間調查一下，調查結果要送來委員會。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不可能！這是不可能的。"],["陳委員玉珍：本席相信你！本席沒有不相信，本席只是說你們沒有做任何動作，會讓外界誤以為你們默認。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然。謝謝委員給我這個機會，剛好在這邊對外澄清。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們也去調查一下嘛！因為就像你說的，相關的公司並沒有出來澄清啊！理論上他們應該自己站出來說句話。不然以現在這樣的氛圍，大家都覺得金管會或相關單位有可能會做這樣的事情，請你們一個禮拜內給我們報告。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。我們來說詐騙，詐騙現在的確很猖獗，真的讓人看不下去。你看114年，今年的4月份，就是上個月，財產的損失是76億5,000萬元，有一萬五千多件詐騙案，假投資詐騙40億元，網路購物、假買家詐騙都是1億元，假交友詐騙13億元。這個行為已經變成是一個產業，而且它的產值，也就是詐騙金額越來越高，國人實在是受害很深。","你看，很多人都不學好，寧願投入這個產業，現在其他產業很慘，但是詐騙產業蒸蒸日上，案件量也一直提高。您看，你們有提出金融帳戶預警制度，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們提這個制度，要聯手勸阻客戶把資金匯往疑似涉及詐騙的境內帳戶，預計今年5月底完成。距離5月底只剩幾天，會完成嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經完成了。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經完成了，是嗎？我們來看一下你們公布的示警帳戶，從110年第一季的四萬多戶，到隔一年的七萬多戶，112年變9萬6,000戶，113年是12萬6,000戶，到了今年是15萬個警示帳戶。關於阻詐，你們應該一直在加強嘛！對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。我們這個強度……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是警示帳戶卻越來越多，這個效果……"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我們確實也看到，自從我們今年年初採取一系列措施以後，警示帳戶的成長率已經快接近零。"],["陳委員玉珍：成長率接近零嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：114年第1季15萬……"],["彭主任委員金隆：第1季比較落後，我說還是在成長，但成長率已經比以前有明顯下降，我們是希望它趕快趨近於零，現在在……"],["陳委員玉珍：第2季還沒有過完，第1季15萬，第2季預計……"],["彭主任委員金隆：差不多0.4%左右，成長率從原來的……"],["陳委員玉珍：理論上這種帳戶應該是要下降啊！怎麼還會繼續成長？"],["彭主任委員金隆：成長率差不多0.4%左右，這個部分我們一定會很努力，我們做得不好，我們覺得……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以大家還要繼續努力嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為詐騙實在是太過猖獗，很多人都被詐騙過。你們2月的時候有邀請各個銀行開會嘛，有擬定一個改善機制對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們會強力的要求。"],["陳委員玉珍：有兩個監控的指標，警示戶占比／存款帳戶占比，以及警示戶月新增率／警示戶同業平均月增率，這兩個比率如果一旦同時超過100%，就會被打入黑名單嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在已經實施三個月了吧，成效好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請局長跟委員說明一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：成效好不好？"],["童局長政彰：跟委員報告，我們到目前為止有訂定這個指標，如果連續兩個月都超過100%的話，我們會正式發文，我們已經在上個禮拜有正式發文，目前有三家金融機構……"],["陳委員玉珍：請問是哪三家銀行？讓我們知道，你們要公告啊，公告以後大家才知道這些銀行，要注意這些銀行來的帳戶，而且這會影響銀行的信用嘛，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會在適時的時候再……因為我們現在還在……"],["陳委員玉珍：你公告才有嚇阻的效果。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：老百姓才知道這些銀行不好，這些銀行才會更努力的去打詐、阻詐。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，未來一定是這樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：那請問是哪些銀行？說實在我也不知道，哪幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒辦法公告是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我覺得這部分還是先從控管機制，我覺得在這時候當場公布，我覺得這部分我們還要再……"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？你怕怎樣？保護哪些銀行？我也不知道哪幾家銀行，真的！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可以再跟委員報告，我想在這邊我們暫時先……"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼我們要保護不夠努力的銀行？或者我們這樣講沒關係，因為2月剛開始嘛，現在5月，我們是不是後面可以建立一個制度？如果做得不好就是要公告，他們才有警惕效果嘛，銀行也才會更努力嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒有錯，未來公告就是我們的武器啦，但是因為制度實施，很多時候我們希望指標更穩定、更可靠以後，當然……"],["陳委員玉珍：你公告之後，銀行自然就會更努力啊，它也不想上榜變成一個好像詐騙集團都特別favor他們的銀行，或者是他們特別有詐騙集團會去那個，對不對？這對大眾有幫助，一個月76億的詐騙金額啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對。我想這部分當然……"],["陳委員玉珍：除了這個部分以外，你們還可以再做什麼積極措施？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們很多不能夠對外說明，因為現在詐團也在看我們會不會公布。"],["陳委員玉珍：看你們做什麼，道高一尺，魔高一丈。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們是希望我們是魔高一尺，道高一丈，但是我的意思是，因為我們有請金融機構，我們要用科技打詐、精準打詐，意思是說，我們不會對外說我們怎麼做，因為詐團也是個產業，剛剛委員也講到……"],["陳委員玉珍：實在是太誇張了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們知道我們怎麼做以後，他們也會因應。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個我們也可以理解，也希望你們做得好，但是如果做得不好的，你將之公告也會有幫助。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是絕對的。"],["陳委員玉珍：當作未來的方向啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們做這個指標有很重要的目的啦，希望做得好的，我們也獎勵，做得不好的，大家也願意……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，事實上是要這樣做啦，其實從金融機構下手也是一個很大的幫助，因為投資詐騙的影響實在很大。","再者，本席在3月31日有質詢金管會有關OIU的事情，因為OIU最大客源是陸客，大陸限制來台所以客源少了一大塊，我也說過我們金門發展OIU的優勢，有陸客、有優惠的稅收，還有小三通，現在是唯一兩岸之間有大陸客可以來的地方。金管會那時候有給我一個報告，你們的答復竟然是，如果未來限制，我們地方有提出相關發展方向的話，你們會配合評估，樂見未來高雄專區模式成功以後可以複製到其他城市。高雄專區要做了吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們就是相信金管會的專業，因為地方政府比較沒這方面的能力，就相信你們的專業，才請你們幫我們提供一個方法，看有沒有什麼做法，讓金門這樣一個特殊的地方可以把OIU做得更好，或者是可以開始了，OIU現在全國都做不好啦，我們有地理位置的優勢，所以就請你們提出方法，現在你們又給我回答說請縣市政府提出發展方案，這個好像有點倒過來，我們是請你們協助，用你們的專業，提供我們可以做什麼。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我真的很佩服委員對金門鄉親的關懷，我的意思是，主要是因為我們這個專區的概念是由地方政府願意提出什麼配套措施……"],["陳委員玉珍：地方政府的金融專業沒有貴會強啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是、不是，他們提的不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們可以說我們需要配合什麼，我們來做，好不好？反向來做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如我舉例，他們可以提供場地，提供一些像是生活或租稅方面，就是地方可以做的優惠。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們列舉出來，我們可以來看地方政府可以做哪些事，你們主動提出嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為地方政府不知道到底要怎麼做，我們也沒有期待像高雄一樣有15、16家銀行進駐，至少利用地利之便，有陸客到訪，看這個優勢我們怎麼樣來做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們樂於比如金門縣政府在這方面可以提出他們能夠提供什麼，我想我們在推動的時候一定是全面的，只是每個地方有他自己的……"],["陳委員玉珍：還是請金管會提出來到底需要地方配合什麼事情，我們能做的都會做，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，我們再跟委員討論這件事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員。","接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 2 案、\n(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅\n廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」\n等6案；二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳\n濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部\n分條文修正草案」等 4 案、 ( 二 ) 本院委員林楚茵等 17 人、委員王鴻薇等 19 人、委員郭國文等 18\n人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等\n4案、(三)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條\n條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145401_00006"}}},{"id":"162031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f246b1470d342d99ccee795f59f7b69f6aea3426710e0a50eed604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:52:33 - 12:11:58","影片長度":"00:19:25","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T11:52:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T12:11:58+08:00","duration":1165,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.40596875,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.68846875,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7.709093750000001,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.020968750000002,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.657218750000002,"end":19.234718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.234718750000003,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":19.403468750000002,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.684718750000002,"end":30.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.612843750000003,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":36.31221875,"end":42.150968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":42.79221875,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.534093750000004,"end":52.360343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.697843750000004,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.24596875,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.58346875,"end":56.916593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.916593750000004,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.59159375,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.19409375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.49784375,"end":68.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.15971875000001,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.30721875,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.35784375,"end":68.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.37471875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.42534375000001,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.50971875,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":70.87221875,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.02409375,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.39534375000001,"end":79.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.96784375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.96346875,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.51159375,"end":84.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.30409375,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":92.94471875,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.56034375,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.76659375000001,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.01534375,"end":100.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.01471875,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.65596875,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.65534375,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.75659375000001,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.80721875,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.56659375000001,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.58346875000001,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.41034375000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.89534375000001,"end":119.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.94471875,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.56471875000001,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.05784375,"end":125.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.26034375,"end":132.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":132.22971875000002,"end":135.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.46971875,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.30221875,"end":154.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":156.96846875,"end":157.03596875000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差不多是這樣喔?是是是"},{"start":111.946,"end":135.142,"text":"就稍微補充一下就因為我們一起來去評估跟CDC這邊食藥署的我們評估起來預估會去就診不進去確診就診的時候我們會會評估要2.5倍的快篩的試劑的量所以預估會去就診因為因為有很多的感冒的有時候是流感不是啊FDA的署長我是在問確診你在回答我就診"},{"start":136.082,"end":158.813,"text":"對就是說我們是利用健保署的那個診斷碼去估那大概就估大概是170萬剛剛我跟您說的就是到8月初的時候大概170萬左右是確診嘛對不對就是說應該說臨床診斷有包括醫師的診斷還有加上這個快篩陽性的部分是你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低這樣的確診人數"},{"start":160.754,"end":184.605,"text":"這個部分所以我們在昨天記者會有說呼籲民眾自主的戴口罩也就是說到了醫院或是大眾交通工具的部分這個第一個是可以戴口罩那第二個就是在這個長照機構的部分我們有請這個長照機構這邊加強注意感染管制的一個措施還有就是說如果可以接種疫苗的話也呼籲這個就是長照機構很簡單我的問題也很重點"},{"start":187.967,"end":208.62,"text":"如果你們預估從6月、7月到8月初等於是兩個月時間而已啦那你們如果預估可能在台灣有將近高達180萬人確診的情況之下那你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫是不是可以降低這樣的人數嘛所以你看180萬短短兩個月"},{"start":211.161,"end":212.722,"text":"你要知道這些醫療機構能夠承載嗎像現在整個醫療的這麼緊迫的情況之下如果這兩個月又面臨到有180萬人去確診這些醫護真的會疲於奔命啊醫療會崩壞啊"},{"start":228.126,"end":239.871,"text":"主要還是以在輕症為主啦所以我們在這個診所跟醫院的部分事實上都有提供這個口不開你不能保護我就輕症為主啦你保護我這樣就不夠專業吧"},{"start":244.489,"end":271.822,"text":"現在台灣的醫療什麼情況我相信你比我都更清楚是部長也更應該更應該了解到這個狀況所以現在不是親中症現在議員說我們有呼籲就是如果是就是說你相關的物資都已經齊備你也召開了這個記者會但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變如果降低這兩個月不要達到180萬的台灣人再度確診community可以吧第一個是可以吧"},{"start":272.282,"end":300.68,"text":"是可以吧可以提出這樣的應用作為降低這樣的確診人數可以吧不要讓台灣的醫療在這兩個月又漫入的黑暗期導致整個醫療崩壞導致很多的醫護到時候又有很多狀況沒有辦法在這個工作崗位持續的守護台灣的國人的醫療健康可以吧可以一個禮拜一再提出來好不好好謝謝兩位請回請部長"},{"start":302.332,"end":323.48,"text":"部長我剛剛講這個事情非常重要我也不希望你當了部長之後還在披雨奔命在應付COVID-19如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬即便輕症是70%那代表還有中症跟重症有30%台灣的醫療力量有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎我們會趕快提出具體的一個策略好 謝謝"},{"start":325.001,"end":343.736,"text":"我最好就是不要達到那個數字,數字就對了好不好我這23號,4月23號在委員會提出,跟部長也提醒就是國內的這個醫院被駭客入境的問題非常嚴重對不對那從去年,今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的這個狀況發生我在問的時候,5月6日會不會有相同的情況繼續發生結果又發生了嘛,5月"},{"start":349.98,"end":372.345,"text":"虎大醫院這個駭客入侵而且這是自己人內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資這是一個個案嗎台灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵啊不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料連內部員工都有辦法入侵而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資這是聯絡報的一個報導我們的衛福部的資訊處的李處長李處長有在現場吧"},{"start":379.759,"end":395.309,"text":"請他出席一下好不好來到台上齁你看齁 他說針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理目前外部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院五大醫院並未列入依規定若發生治安問題不須通報不須通報"},{"start":400.014,"end":423.151,"text":"李處長,你在哪裡?不好意思,李處長剛剛有來,他10點半換成副處長好,他有事先提出他10點半要離開嗎?有,他有提出,10點半,他有提出10點早委的資料裡面沒有喔?喔有啦,對不起,10點半王副處長嘛,對不對?王副處長,李處長的答覆這樣是對的嗎?"},{"start":428.292,"end":447.938,"text":"陸域規定發生治安問題不需通報因為虎大不是在53家的關鍵基礎設施的醫院是這樣嗎他可以這樣答覆嗎可以嗎跟委員報告因為依照自通安全管理法只有關鍵基礎設施依照什麼法"},{"start":448.891,"end":472.103,"text":"司通安全管理法有明確規範關鍵基礎的這個設施的意願才必須要通報就是他依法需要通報那本部有建立一個資安情勢收集到底要不要通報 明確表達好不好 要不要通報"},{"start":474.82,"end":497.014,"text":"這個東西的話,就在治安各自法裡面的話,要通報的只有那53家醫院所以超過這53家醫院的話,這個是不用通報但是我們可以做行政調查,所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去給他做行政調查醫生這個辦法規定是除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報?需要一小時之內通報"},{"start":498.103,"end":512.632,"text":"一小時內就要通報嘛,對不對?不是就不需要通報?不需要一小時之內,還是要通報所以還是要通報嘛,分作一小時跟一小時之外就對了啦所以你剛剛的解釋,還有包含你們副處長的解釋有點奇怪但我裡面寫這麼清楚,你們要這麼對外講話"},{"start":519.964,"end":534.111,"text":"這是你講的沒有錯吧?依規定論發生資安問題不需通報你後面才在補一區一個小時內跟一個小時外一個小時以上你們可以這樣對我解釋嗎?所以我覺得這可能就是你要讓我再問下去嗎?"},{"start":536.469,"end":562.35,"text":"要不要通報嘛就是說他一小時外的話是要也是應該醫院發生這些事件都應該這是治安問題耶能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎你有相關的辦法的依據該通報就通報啊然後什麼叫做治安問題不需要通報我覺得這可能解釋的過程中他沒有完整的所以要怪記者要怪這個報紙"},{"start":565.029,"end":572.558,"text":"警部長在開始下轍報導醫院發生這個入侵事件之後還接收到另外的報導說這個院內這個去"},{"start":580.117,"end":608.215,"text":"做這樣的一個事件的人是為了競選公衛的代表他當用多名醫護人員的戰力幫自己投票同時發現提告後 後續又查出他利用遠端連線 駭進醫院的資料庫瀏覽病患及醫護人員各自包含第一名某林志明家族內上萬病患的各自恐外洩教育部教育部有了吧你們做什麼樣的因應的作為跟處置我倒是教育部管的吧"},{"start":609.258,"end":610.213,"text":"呃"},{"start":611.104,"end":639.682,"text":"府大醫院應該是衛護部吧衛護部管 那就教育部請回 抱歉我想這個可能媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況我相信你府大醫院他們的一個制度一定會因為他們醫院也不是很大所以應該會做立即的處理不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務一定要把他塑限"},{"start":640.727,"end":664.725,"text":"部長你講的說這個報導應該接近屬實嘛對不對你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛沒有錯吧那如果是這樣這可能要再去確認一下他但是你剛剛已經有答覆我這樣了耶沒有我說可能我的意思是可能啦好不好沒關係也就是說可能接近屬實嘛完全掌握到真實的狀況啦是我要表達齁我反而不是針對院方"},{"start":666.857,"end":669.959,"text":"我要針對務務部你們的SOP是什麼你們的解釋依據法律的解釋管理辦法的解釋然後產生的SOP是什麼如果這個報導接見屬實還是它是屬於一個屬實這一個醫師人員現在還可以在醫院裡面然後進行這樣持續性的讓病患的個資再外洩"},{"start":698.129,"end":713.187,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下我們的SOP,那就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這部分是由醫事師指導衛生局,所以已經第一時間去做行政調查醫事師主導,醫事師要調查醫事師市長請上來,你主導了嗎?你調查了嗎?"},{"start":719.654,"end":748.147,"text":"我要講補充的是我們發文給新北市衛生局這邊就醫院管理這邊做調查然後因為各自的洩漏的部分的話醫院的全責主管機關我們這邊會督導衛生局做調查做事件後面的調查為什麼說發文事件當天其實就發文下午我們也是見報之道的我們就是下午當晚的時候發文然後那目前只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態"},{"start":749.648,"end":756.734,"text":"事件發生之後你們就發文了你等一下把那張公文傳給委員會做參考可以好然後你什麼時候督導"},{"start":758.223,"end":775.51,"text":"因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到所以我們會再問一下衛生局目前然後可是衛生局初步的回報因為檢調機關已經進入調查所以他們現在手邊有的東西這個地方我會再確認檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查嘛你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛你們該督導還是該督導嘛對不對沒錯好"},{"start":781.601,"end":798.839,"text":"部長 我在這邊具體的建立好不好 要求大致三項是不是重新檢視這整個資安通報制度不論規模 只要病患擱置外泄餘力就必須要進行資安的通報一再辦法也是如此至於那個一個小時以內 一個小時以上"},{"start":799.6,"end":816.295,"text":"我想可能要修吧那第二個同時衛生部及地方衛生局在接為醫療院所資安通報之後整個應變機制及醫院醫療院所要進行的應變措施也必須重新檢討是可以啊可以兩周內是不是可以提出相關報告好沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":817.336,"end":844.67,"text":"好,其他請回,最後,最後對不起,主席抱歉,因為剛剛黃先生、張偉有特別跟部長在之前已經有聚焦過,台灣能不能承受一個兒少專職的單位嘛,那部長也有做一些回應嘛對不對,但是到現在就是還沒有看到具體的這個,這個,就是跨出這一大步嘛,就是沒有嘛,顯然沒有就會出問題,剛剛黃偉特別引用嘛齁,確實是容顏,"},{"start":846.347,"end":852.368,"text":"農年台灣的出生寶寶是3萬,你知道12年前的農年台灣出生寶寶是多少嗎?部長知道嗎?12年前的農年啦12年前喔?應該不難嘛不難啦,你都不知道"},{"start":873.567,"end":895.331,"text":"衛生部有一個兒少的單位專門在注意這個出生率的嗎?衛生部出生率是國發部沒有錯啦,國發會衛生部要來照顧這些兒童基本上年十二年前的熔岩的出生率出生人數是多少都不清楚"},{"start":898.443,"end":905.511,"text":"你不要說差不多20萬,原本是26萬,除了6萬,你找到多少?19萬19萬是兩年,12年當中的兩年,剛才說差不多20萬,也有1萬,也有22萬現在剩19萬,第二年剩幾萬?"},{"start":917.805,"end":922.749,"text":"從小嬰一直到賴總統甚至要進入到2.0那如果我們看到少子化整個這樣的一個脈絡出生率降低的速度之快"},{"start":942.957,"end":970.685,"text":"衛務部會攔此其咎這其一那其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講而且剛剛洪遠特別是提到這個已經有很多人講過了我要跟部長講大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂過去列政部還有個兒童局對不對主改之後創到沒了就中年了然後變到社家屬之後看起來好像是社家屬是兒童業務的單一窗口但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的"},{"start":972.705,"end":994.716,"text":"這個我想旅策也很清楚0到2歲這個大家都很清楚兒童同意服務社家屬管2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管兒童安置是社家屬管兒內又變成保護師管對不對然後凱凱安跟副長從社家屬保護師到地方政府都有份甚至以負責凱凱收出養的兒護聯盟以他進來是歸教育部管的文教單位你覺得有複雜嗎"},{"start":999.048,"end":1006.294,"text":"我一直說那個燕子,那個燕子是我們的社會安全網有接到的,不是沒有接到,結果接到之後生命又放棄了,所以你知道看,內政部還有一個稍委會,警事務署還有一個副優隊,"},{"start":1015.114,"end":1038.408,"text":"你看 花幾個部會 花幾個機關啦齁這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考我想你們都很用心的在為台灣的醫療在示威去發聲了嘛那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛 也可以借鏡日本在2013年喔 對不起2023年他其實是 他已經整合了叫做兒童家庭廳"},{"start":1040.73,"end":1061.455,"text":"他之前一樣他兒童的相關的保護照顧的業務也分散在他們的這個文部科學省後生勞動省內閣府警察廳跟我們現況差不多啦跟我們現況差不多但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整個完成叫做兒童家庭廳有其必要吧"},{"start":1064.178,"end":1076.821,"text":"有其必要來依據這樣的一個參考不然你看社交組社交能力的分配女士應該會很累社交組署長也應該會很累老人福利組12個人身心障礙福利組18個人婦幼18個人兒少17個人家庭支持組21個人一個兒少出生率越來越低只有17個人"},{"start":1092.906,"end":1116.763,"text":"一個老人越來越多2021已經生不如死現在已經賴到超高齡社會百分之二十、六十五歲以上的老人人口快速結構的轉變專門在照顧這個最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的一個社會家庭署竟然才各組的分別才多十幾個人這不在應付啦這不在處理事情啦"},{"start":1124.226,"end":1137.954,"text":"好不好 我請部長還有次長是不是盡快研擬應該是一個月內是不是可以參照日本的做法來因應台灣要照顧更多的兒少讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來"},{"start":1138.615,"end":1161.099,"text":"哪怕它是一個三級機關哪怕它是一個部會你只要一發動我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院阿Q這件事情嘛是 可以吧可以 我們覺得這個是非常必要的好而且一直真的積極在人力中好 那一個月內喔嘿 好這樣才代表積極嘛 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長 謝謝各位好 謝謝六位委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1461,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時52分）好，謝謝主席。先請CDC的署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["劉委員建國：署長，剛剛聽你的說明跟報告，因應疫情再起，相關的防疫物資應該都準備就緒了。"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：現在是5月，我們就直接講，預估6月、7月、8月這3個月在臺灣的確診人數大致上可能是多少？你們有抓出來嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，我們有針對比較高峰期的那個禮拜，大概可能會超過20萬人次。"],["劉委員建國：一個禮拜就超過20萬人？"],["莊署長人祥：20萬人。"],["劉委員建國：一個禮拜？"],["莊署長人祥：一個禮拜。"],["劉委員建國：是指6月份的哪一個禮拜？"],["莊署長人祥：6月底、7月初。"],["劉委員建國：6月底、7月初？"],["莊署長人祥：對、對、對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：好。那如果以6月加7月，你們預估會確診的人數是多少？你不可能只有抓一個禮拜嘛。"],["莊署長人祥：對。應該主要還是在這個前後幾周，那應該是說，可能……"],["劉委員建國：抓出一個禮拜將近20萬人會確診，沒有辦法抓出6到7月這60天到底臺灣會有多少人確診？"],["莊署長人祥：8月底的時候我們預估大概會有171萬左右。"],["劉委員建國：到8月底就預估將近170萬人？"],["莊署長人祥：對、對、對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：所以等於6、7、8月總共會有180萬人確診，等於每個月將近有30萬人又確診，是這樣嗎？是不是？"],["莊署長人祥：最高的時候大概是二十幾萬人次。"],["劉委員建國：你為什麼一直要跟我講最高？我在問你6月、7月、8月嘛。"],["莊署長人祥：對、對、對，6、7、8。"],["劉委員建國：你一下子回我一個星期，一下子又回我到8月底。"],["莊署長人祥：對，到8月初的時候是171萬人左右。"],["劉委員建國：8月初，所以等於是6月、7月這兩個月就會有將近180萬人確診？"],["莊署長人祥：是。差不多。"],["劉委員建國：是這樣嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：是、是、是。"],["姜署長至剛：我稍微補充一下，因為我們食藥署跟CDC一起去評估，我們評估起來，預估去就診的人數，不是確診的人數，就診的時候，我們評估要2.5倍的快篩試劑的量，所以預估會去就診的人，因為有很多感冒的，有時候是流感……"],["劉委員建國：不是。FDA的署長，我是在問確診，你卻答復我就診。"],["莊署長人祥：對。我們是利用健保署的診斷碼去估，大概就是估到170萬，剛剛我跟您說的就是，預估到8月初的時候在170萬左右。"],["劉委員建國：是確診嘛，對不對？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，臨床診斷，有包括醫師的診斷，還有加上快篩陽性的部分。"],["劉委員建國：你們有沒有相關的計畫可以降低確診人數？"],["莊署長人祥：這個部分，我們在昨天記者會有說，就是呼籲民眾自主戴口罩，也就是說，到了醫院或是大眾交通工具，第一個是可以戴口罩。第二個就是在長照機構，我們有請長照機構加強注意感染管制的措施。還有，就是說，如果可以接種疫苗的話，也呼籲接種。"],["劉委員建國：署長，我的問題很簡單，我的問題也有重點，從6月、7月到8月初，等於是兩個月時間而已，你們預估在臺灣可能有將近高達180萬人確診，在這種情況之下，你們應該趕快提出相關的因應作為跟計畫，看是不是可以降低確診的人數。因為你看，180萬人確診，短短兩個月，你要知道醫療機構能夠承載嗎？現在整個醫療資源這麼緊迫的情況之下，如果這兩個月又面臨有180萬人確診，醫護真的會疲於奔命，醫療會崩壞。"],["莊署長人祥：是，跟委員報告，主要還是以輕症為主，所以我們在診所跟醫院事實上都有提供口服藥物。"],["劉委員建國：你故意答覆我說輕症為主，你答覆我這樣就不夠專業吧，現在臺灣的醫療什麼情況，我相信你比我都更清楚。"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長也更應該了解到這個狀況，所以現在不是輕重症的問題。"],["莊署長人祥：我們也呼籲，如果是……"],["劉委員建國：我要表達的是，如果你相關的物資都已經齊備，也召開了記者會，但是你應該要提出一套更積極的作為來應變，思考如何降低確診人數，這兩個月不要達到180萬個臺灣人再度確診COVID-19，可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：第一個是……"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：可以。"],["劉委員建國：可以提出相對的因應作為，降低確診的人數，可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["劉委員建國：不要讓臺灣的醫療在這兩個月又邁入黑暗期，導致整個醫療系統崩壞，導致很多醫護到時候又有很多狀況，沒有辦法在工作崗位持續守護臺灣國人健康，可以吧？"],["莊署長人祥：可以。"],["劉委員建國：可以，一個禮拜內提出來，好不好？"],["莊署長人祥：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。兩位請回。","好，請部長。部長，我剛剛講這個事情非常重要，我也不希望你當了部長之後還是疲於奔命在應付COVID-19，如果短短兩個月內要去應付180萬人確診，即便輕症是占70%，那代表還有30%的中症跟重症，臺灣的醫療量能有辦法去應付這樣的事情嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會趕快提出具體的策略。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。最好不要達到那個數字就對了，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，儘量把它降低。"],["劉委員建國：我4月23日在委員會有提出，跟部長也提醒了，其實國內的醫院被駭客入侵的問題非常嚴重嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：從今年的2、3、4月也都傳出醫院被駭的狀況發生，我在問的時候，問5月會不會有相同的情況繼續發生，結果又發生了。5月輔大醫院被駭客入侵，而且這一次是自己人做的，內部人員駭進醫院的系統裡面，瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資，這是一個個案嗎？臺灣的醫療防護系統怎麼這麼好入侵？不僅是中國的駭客看到病患資料，連內部員工都有辦法入侵，而且還可以隨意瀏覽病患的個資，這是聯合報的一篇報導，我們的衛福部資訊處的李處長有在現場吧？請出來一下，好不好？來，到台上。你看，這篇報導說，針對醫院的資訊安全的維護及管理，目前衛福部共列53家關鍵基礎設施的醫院，輔大醫院並沒有列入，依規定，若發生資安問題，不須通報。李處長，你在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，李處長剛剛有來，10點半換成副處長代理。"],["劉委員建國：好，他有事先提出10點半要離開嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有。他有提出。"],["劉委員建國：有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：10點半，他有提出。"],["劉委員建國：召委的資料裡面沒有喔。有啦，寫10點半。","現在是王副處長嘛，對不對？王副處長，李處長答覆這樣是對的嗎？若依規定，發生資安問題不須通報，因為輔大不在53家關鍵基礎設施醫院之內，是這樣嗎？他可以這樣答覆嗎？可以嗎？"],["王副處長美珠：跟委員報告，因為依照資通安全管理法，只有關鍵基礎設施是不……"],["劉委員建國：依照什麼法？"],["王副處長美珠：資通安全管理法。"],["劉委員建國：資通安全管理法？"],["王副處長美珠：是。"],["劉委員建國：有明確規範？"],["王副處長美珠：是。"],["劉委員建國：關鍵基礎設施的醫院才必須要通報？"],["王副處長美珠：就是依法須通報，那本部有建立一個資安情資蒐集……"],["劉委員建國：到底要不要通報？明確表達好不好？要不要通報？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：這個東西的話，就是在個資法裡面，要通報的只有那53醫院家，所以超過這53家醫院的話，是不用通報，但是我們可以做行政調查，所以我們已經請醫事司委託衛生局去做行政調查。"],["劉委員建國：依照這個辦法規定，除了關鍵基礎設施的醫院需要通報……"],["李技監兼處長建璋：需要一小時之內通報。"],["劉委員建國：一小時內就要通報嘛，對不對？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：對。"],["劉委員建國：不是就不需要通報？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：不需要一小時之內通報，但還是要通報。"],["劉委員建國：所以還是要通報嘛。分作一小時之內跟一小時之外就對了啦。"],["李技監兼處長建璋：對對對。"],["劉委員建國：所以你剛剛的解釋，還有包含你們副處長的解釋，有點奇怪，辦法裡面寫這麼清楚，你們要這麼對外講法，這是你講的沒有錯吧？你說，依規定若發生資安問題，不須通報，你後面才再補一句「一個小時內跟一個小時以上」你們可以這樣對外解釋嗎？你要讓我再問下去嗎？要不要通報嘛？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：要。就是說，一個小時外的話，醫院發生這些事件，應該……"],["劉委員建國：這是資安問題。"],["李技監兼處長建璋：是。"],["劉委員建國：能容許這樣對外隨便講講嗎？你有相關的辦法跟依據，該通報就通報啊。什麼叫做資安問題不須通報？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：我覺得這個解釋的過程中他可能沒有完整的……"],["劉委員建國：所以要怪記者，要怪這個報紙？請部長再看一下報導，醫院發生入侵事件之後，還有另外的報導，說在院內做這樣的事的人，是為了競選工會的代表，他盜用多名醫護人員的帳密，被自己的同事發現後提告，後續又查出他利用遠端連線，駭進醫院的資料庫，瀏覽病患及醫護人員的個資，包含第一名模林志玲家族在內，上萬病患的個資恐外洩，教育部有派人來吧？你們做什麼樣的因應作為跟處置？輔大是教育部管的吧？"],["邱部長泰源：輔大醫院應該是衛福部管吧？"],["劉委員建國：既然是衛福部管，那教育部請回，抱歉。"],["邱部長泰源：媒體的報導是不是完全掌握到實際上的情況，輔大醫院也不是很大，所以我相信輔大醫院應該會做立即的處理，不應該讓他再繼續使用院內的公務電腦，一定要把他受限。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你講的這個報導應該接近屬實嘛，對不對？你剛剛答覆我是這樣嘛，沒有錯吧？好，那如果是這樣……"],["邱部長泰源：這可能要再去確認一下……"],["劉委員建國：但是你剛才已經有答復我這樣了。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，我是說可能……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，好，沒關係，也就是說可能接近屬實嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：可能不是完全掌握到真實的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：是。我要表達，我反而不是針對院方，我要針對衛福部，你們的SOP是什麼？你們的解釋依據，法律的解釋，管理辦法的解釋，然後產生的SOP是什麼？如果這個報導接近屬實，還是屬實，怎麼這一個醫事人員現在還可以在醫院裡面，然後這樣持續性地讓病患的個資外洩？"],["李技監兼處長建璋：跟委員報告一下我們的SOP，就是在非關鍵基礎設施醫院的這個部分，是由醫事司指導衛生局，所以已經第一時間去做行政調查，那行政調查……"],["劉委員建國：醫事司主導，醫事司要調查，來，醫事司司長請上來，你主導了嗎？你調查了嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：我要補充的是，我們發文給新北市衛生局，就醫院管理這部分做調查，然後個資洩露的部分，醫院的權責主管機關，我們會督導衛生局做調查，做事件後面的調查……"],["劉委員建國：你什麼時候發文？"],["劉司長越萍：事件當天下午其實就發文，我們也是見報知道的，我們就是傍晚的時候發文，只知道這一個員工目前是停職的狀態。"],["劉委員建國：事件發生之後你們就發文了？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：你等一下把那一張公文傳給委員會做參考。"],["劉司長越萍：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好。然後你什麼時候督導？"],["劉司長越萍：因為現在調查回來的東西我們還沒看到，所以我們會再問一下衛生局，可是因為檢調機關已經進入調查，所以他們現在手邊有的東西，這個地方我會再確認。"],["劉委員建國：檢調單位調查是檢調單位要調查，你們的行政調查還是該啟動嘛，你們該督導還是該督導嘛，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好。部長，我在這邊具體地建議，要求就三項，重新檢視這整個資安通報制度，不論規模，只要有病患個資外洩疑慮，就必須要進行資安的通報，依照辦法也是如此。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：至於那個一個小時以內或一個小時以上，我想可能要修。","第二個，同時衛福部及地方衛生局在接獲醫療院所資安通報之後，整個應變機制及醫療院所要進行的因應措施也必須重新檢討。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["劉委員建國：兩週內是不是可以提出相關報告？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。","最後，因應主席的說法，剛剛黃秀芳召委有特別跟部長就教，提到臺灣能不能成立一個兒少專責單位，部長也有做一些回應嘛，對不對？但是到現在還沒有看到具體跨出一大步，就是沒有嘛，顯然沒有就會出問題，剛剛黃委員也特別引用了，去年是龍年，龍年臺灣出生的寶寶數量是13萬，你知道12年前的龍年臺灣出生的寶寶是多少嗎？部長知道嗎？12年前的龍年。"],["呂次長建德：差不多20萬。"],["劉委員建國：不只吧，應該不只吧。"],["邱部長泰源：有可能不只，差不多二十幾萬。"],["劉委員建國：你們都不知道，衛福部有一個兒少的單位，專門在注意出生率的嗎？"],["呂次長建德：出生率是國發會。"],["劉委員建國：出生率是國發會在關注，沒有錯啦。衛福部要來照顧這些兒童，連12年前的龍年出生率和出生人數是多少都不清楚。"],["呂次長建德：差不多20萬啦。"],["劉委員建國：你不要說差不多20萬，說不定是16萬，剩下的6萬你們放到哪裡？"],["呂次長建德：19萬。"],["劉委員建國：19萬，現在確定是19萬了？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：19萬是12年前的龍年出生人數，剛才說差不多20萬，也有人說是21萬，也有人說是22萬，現在剩下19萬，那上一年剩幾萬？剩13萬嘛，對不對？你看減少多少？12年減少50%，這是很恐怖的一件事情。所以我們一直在講少子化、少子化、要因應少子化，然後整個相關經費0到6歲國家一起養，從小英一直到賴總統，甚至要進入到2.0，如果我們看到少子化整個的脈絡，出生率降低的速度之快，衛福部會難辭其咎喔，這是其一。","其二要成立這個專責單位不是現在才講，而且剛剛黃委員特別提到，這筆經費很多人講過了，我要跟部長講，大致上你可以看我們多麼凌亂！過去內政部還有個兒童局，對不對？然後組改之後弄到沒有了，局長就坐在那裡嘛，併到社家署之後，看起來社家署是兒童業務的單一窗口，但是其實兒少的業務是很複雜的，這個我想呂次也很清楚，0到2歲大家都很清楚，兒童托育服務社家署管，2到6歲幼兒園變教育部管，兒童安置是社家署管，兒虐又變成保護司管，對不對？然後剴剴案更複雜，從社家署、保護司、到地方政府都有份，甚至於負責剴剴收出養的兒福聯盟竟然是歸教育部管的文教單位，你看這個複雜嗎？我一直說剴剴那個孩子我們的社會安全網有接到耶，不是沒有接到，結果接到之後生命又不見了！你再看，內政部還有個少輔會，警政署還有個婦幼隊，你看跨幾個部會、跨幾個機關？","這個問題我要給部長跟次長做參考，我想你們都很用心的為臺灣的醫療去世衛發聲，那我們現在為兒少更積極一點嘛，也可以借鏡，日本在2013年，對不起，是2023年，其實它已經整合叫做兒童家庭廳，它之前一樣，兒童相關的保護照顧業務也分散在文部科學省、厚生勞動省、內閣府、警察廳，跟我們的現況差不多，但是畢竟在兩年前已經正式整合完成叫做兒童家庭廳，有其必要吧？有其必要依據這樣的參考，不然你看社家署現在人力的分配，呂次應該會很累，社家署署長也應該會很累，老人福利組12人、身心障礙福利組18人、婦女福利及企劃組18人、兒少福利組17人、家庭支持組21人。一個是兒少出生率越來越低，只有17個人；一個是老人越來越多，2021年已經「生不如死」，現在已經邁到超高齡社會，20%是65歲以上的老人。人口結構快速的轉變，專門在照顧最弱勢的老人、兒童、婦女、身障朋友的社會家庭署，竟然各組分別才都只有十幾個人，這樣沒辦法應付啦，這樣沒辦法處理事情啦，好不好？我請部長還有次長是不是儘快研擬，應該是1個月內，是不是可以參照日本的做法，因應臺灣要照顧更多的兒少，讓這個專責單位趕快成立起來，哪怕是一個三級機關、哪怕是一個部會，你只要一發動，我想所有的委員都會幫你去跟行政院argue這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：可以，我們覺得這個是非常必要的。"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["邱部長泰源：而且一直真的積極在研議中。"],["劉委員建國：好，1個月內喔！"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：這樣才代表積極嘛，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長，謝謝次長，謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：接下來請陳培瑜委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 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你有可能會符合一般老農的期待嗎我不知道 因為每個人的期待可能不一樣 但是基本上委員所提到 很多委員所提到的要根據有一些它的物價指數跟那個調整我們大概也是參考這樣的一個調整的方式去設計的那大概多久可以把這個決定發出來呢我想"},{"start":96.875,"end":122.881,"text":"我們不會提出一個建議 因為最主要是需要一些經費所以我們必須在行政院獲得行政院的支持嘛放寬 你的意思是說經費的部分一定要行政院支持但放寬不需要經費啊沒有你是說放寬之後會增加的部分的經費 了解那這個部分我想一定要得到行政院的支持所以我們 那你們有試算過大概會增加多少嗎"},{"start":124.008,"end":124.249,"text":"我們現在試試算"},{"start":128.39,"end":134.392,"text":"大概30億左右大概30億左右那可以幫助非常多的老農所以這個要請這個我們部長要據理力爭為我們的農民發聲尤其這是為我們台灣付出了一輩子的老農我覺得非常需要那個部長可以幫他們說幾句話那最近前陣子因為這個低溫的影響導致雲林縣包括可能雲林以南的這些荔枝 酪梨 結果率不佳"},{"start":158.018,"end":184.41,"text":"那經縣府爭取這個天然災害救助之後農業部也已經公告了那這一點我必須要代表這個農民給農業部肯定就是說非常的迅速那但是呢接著還有另外一個嚴峻的問題就是這個柑橘類的果樹到目前為止普遍也是結果率偏低不曉得那個部長知不知道這件事情"},{"start":185.59,"end":213.056,"text":"說明一下就是有時候這些多年生的果樹從開花到結果有沒有那有時候像荔枝您知道荔枝花開得很漂亮但是它結果率不好同樣的我們觀察到結果必須確認的時候我們就確認了所以我們就很快的開了那柑橘類的時候它一樣它會先開花然後結果的時候那個生理的弱果是情況怎麼樣所以我們可能還要再觀察一段時間大概多久呢大概"},{"start":214.387,"end":232.657,"text":"6月底到7月中目前我收到的消息我直接問農業部他是跟我說6月中下旬所以我們希望是越快越好因為這些農民其實是非常焦躁不安的那也很擔心說他們一整年的努力就要付諸流水了那他們現在"},{"start":233.257,"end":253.896,"text":"非常的焦急那希望說農業部我們趕快啟動這個四方會館趕快去現場看然後解決他們現在焦急的部分讓他們可以得到這個應有的協助那這一點要請部長多多加油 敬訴不要等到七月七月我覺得太久了這個要因為現在天堂的關係可以去看"},{"start":254.056,"end":273.165,"text":"我們一定立即第一時間就去看這一點一定要請部長要求一下他們要盡速的不要說等等等到農民都已經沒有希望了感覺無望了對不對那另外呢上個禮拜上個禮拜本席有向您追蹤這個季節性的這個"},{"start":276.126,"end":286.07,"text":"就是那個農業移工新制的問題那農業移工是有季節性的這個需求問題那如果申請之後還要向勞動部進行維持一個90天的審查可能早就錯過了這個生長跟採收的季節那塗增這個農民的困擾那部長上個禮拜有答應說你會親自跟勞動部紅部長談然後把農業移工拉出來單獨審查"},{"start":303.956,"end":318.782,"text":"不曉得談的這個結果如何我第一個部分我跟委員報告就是上次您問了以後的第二天吧我就院會我剛好勞動部長就坐在我旁邊我就親自跟他講了然後他第一個部分"},{"start":319.622,"end":342.324,"text":"在規定上面來講他們是七天加七天再加一個審查期所以他們會從更簡化的方式然後同樣的農業部有責任農業部在第一線審查的時候以現在來講我們農糧署在處理的話大概是三個禮拜到四個禮拜甚至於再加上前面的作業的話可能要到一個月去了"},{"start":342.904,"end":352.355,"text":"那我也希望說我們農業部本身在出核的時候也要簡化那個流程那勞動部在審查的時候也簡化的話那這樣的話時間就可以有機會去壓縮"},{"start":354.665,"end":372.681,"text":"對 這個就是本席要講的 因為本席也問了這個勞動部喔勞動部的意思就是說 欸 他們好像只要幾天 好像是15天以內7天加7天嘛對 7天 就是說15天以內就可以那如果假設90天 扣除到他的15天這等於是農業部一個部會要審查60幾天欸"},{"start":376.765,"end":390.504,"text":"我也曾經查過我們農業部現在平均的審查大概是一個月到一個半月四個禮拜到六個禮拜但是勞動部那邊的7加7他也不會那麼快因為他還有他們有去算他的行政流程還有最後的會議的審查那個時間"},{"start":392.386,"end":414.241,"text":"所以就是希望說農業部的部分除了說已經部長已經很迅速的跟勞動部溝通了那我們農業部是不是內部也自我要求一下說我們剛才說的我們內部也會加快 要趕快簡化這個流程勞動部有一部分他們提供的資訊我們還要再check一下理論上是7加7天但是還有一些行程還有審查的流程"},{"start":416.243,"end":441.223,"text":"對 所以我也希望說如果說有什麼需要調整的部分儘速的趕快去解決趕快去解決讓它簡化我們跟勞動部大概溝通無礙我想我們會一起努力好 OK 謝謝這一點也請部長繼續幫我們農民追蹤因為這個很多就是需要移工的這些農民大家都非常的關心尤其因為可以從1.2萬的這個移工增加到2萬其實對於整個整體臺灣農業我想也是幫助非常的大"},{"start":445.106,"end":459.879,"text":"那接下來我本席也想要請問一下有關於那個進口豬肉含瘦肉精的事情前陣子連續3批的豬肉都驗出有萊特多巴胺那針對這樣子的食安警訊食藥署卻表示說"},{"start":460.64,"end":467.382,"text":"不會再提高這個抽樣的比率也拒絕公佈流向那導致有很多國內的豬農他也很憤慨啊無法理解說為什麼政府會這麼的雙標面對進口的豬肉可以這麼寬容這麼低調那對於"},{"start":477.045,"end":480.346,"text":"國內的養豬產業只要一有違規就會立即加強查核然後嚴格開罰這不但讓豬農覺得是雙標到極點也覺得被犧牲被忽視甚至我們一般的這個消費者也覺得很無奈啊怎麼會這樣子的話"},{"start":494.631,"end":514.822,"text":"如果假設流入校園怎麼辦呢那他們如果不小心買到怎麼辦呢所以我也很希望說部長可以去理解我們豬農的一個心聲那因為農業部也一直強調說要守護台灣的農業那是不是部長也要跟這個食藥署這邊包括衛福部這邊來表達一下你的立場呢"},{"start":515.507,"end":539.525,"text":"基本上農業部的立場就是要確保我們國內的豬產業能夠持續發展這是一個非常重要的至於說進口的豬肉是由衛護部主管我在這邊也要做一個說明其實衛護部在邊境把關的部分農業部是防疫的部分他們是檢疫的部分能夠讓他進來一定是合於國家的標準沒有說他不合於國家的標準"},{"start":540.626,"end":554.097,"text":"有一些誤解我覺得必須要澄清但是以農業部來講我們一定讓我們國內的豬肉更有品牌更有市場區隔是 那本席想要請教您知道現在食藥署針對豬肉抽樣的比例是多少嗎這邊有講到差不多要看它的不同的國家啦差不多二至十排啦那您覺得這樣足夠嗎"},{"start":564.946,"end":585.235,"text":"我所了解就以防疫的角度因為他們查驗的我不是很清楚那海關的部分當初要讓這個萊豬進口的時候當初農委會那時候農委會也有說他說一定是逐批抽樣那到底是什麼原因降到連10%都不到的標準呢本來是說每一批都要抽喔"},{"start":585.935,"end":609.771,"text":"我覺得查驗的部分不應該是農業部來發言我知道但是當初是你們的立場你們跟我們的鄉親講講說一定會要求他們都要逐批查驗怎麼現在降到這樣子農業部一句話也不說我想抽驗的比例跟他的風險是有關聯的以防疫的角度如果說我想要知道這個農業部的態度您認為應不應該恢復逐批檢驗"},{"start":614.654,"end":630.492,"text":"我認為就是所有的貨品的防疫檢驗的部分會根據它的風險它如果曾經發生不違規的時候它的查驗的抽檢的比例就會提高本席跟部長提供一個最新的民調數據"},{"start":631.773,"end":634.917,"text":"消基會針對進口萊豬做了一份民調調查結果高達90%的消費者在意是否買到這個瘦肉精的這個產品64%的民眾表示說支持肉品應該逐批檢驗"},{"start":649.215,"end":660.202,"text":"有高達76%的民眾表示不同意販售含萊特波巴胺的肉品部長這就是民意啊多數人的確是擔心吃到萊豬也不想要買到萊豬而且希望恢復這個竹皮檢驗也希望說農業部可以幫他們把這個聲音發出來那另外我想要知道的是說是不是也要強烈的要求"},{"start":676.351,"end":691.297,"text":"保護我們台灣優質的豬肉這當然是我們大家不喜歡來豬肯定就是我們國產豬肉的機會嘛我們這國產豬肉的標示也一定要清楚一定要把這個品牌做出來讓我們國產豬肉更受這個消費者的喜愛"},{"start":694.978,"end":703.505,"text":"第一個就是國產的部分沒問題我們一定會去加強國產豬的標示還有一些品牌區隔但是您剛才講的我覺得邊境的查驗要回到科學的根據還有國際的標準當初是中央政府出來講的講說我要逐批檢查怎麼會出爾反爾呢你現在說科學根據"},{"start":717.236,"end":725.64,"text":"那就逐批檢查才有科學根據逐批檢查出來的數據可以說服大家你現在是在幫他們進口商說話嗎你現在是在幫萊特多巴胺的豬肉說話嗎你不要汙衊喔我的意思是說科學根據是什麼你告訴我是什麼什麼是科學根據所有的邊境的查驗的比例是根據那個農產品的風險什麼風險你現在是在幫"},{"start":746.129,"end":759.686,"text":"進口的萊特多巴胺豬肉酸好嗎我幫你不要這樣講喔不要這樣講我覺得這樣講就是污衊沒有我沒有針對萊特多巴胺我是好好在跟你說好好在跟你說你支不支持支不支持應該要逐批檢查我"},{"start":760.928,"end":773.251,"text":"我還是說要回到所有的抽驗要回到科學的根據跟什麼科學根據你告訴我所有的當你的產品當你的產品如果說經常違規你如果要逐批檢查的話你那個科學根據的數據哪裡來的呀科學有所謂的抽樣的根據那為什麼中央要出爾反爾當初不管是衛福部農業部都說我們一定會逐批檢查絕對不會讓萊特多巴胺抽標的豬肉進口結果"},{"start":788.894,"end":795.121,"text":"上禮拜 上個月就來個3%基本上部長我告訴你 豬農對對 我知道我也會去問他們我現在是問你的態度你支不支持豬農對你抱持很高的期待他們期待的是一個能為他們發聲替他們爭取公平競爭條件的農業部長我想"},{"start":810.117,"end":816.525,"text":"除了剛剛提到的這個恢復竹皮檢查之外把這個標示清楚然後要怎麼樣支持國產豬的具體的措施部長你要能夠幫助他們而不是在這裡辯護欸沒有我告訴你國內的豬肉我們如果說消費者對國內的豬肉有信心的話"},{"start":829.119,"end":843.245,"text":"任何進口豬肉我們不用擔心所以我們的重點農業部的重點就是讓我們的國產豬是你要好好把國產豬照顧好之外我覺得我剛才也是只是問你而已問你說支持不支持逐匹檢查難道是你可以決定說要不要逐匹檢查的嗎我只是在問你說"},{"start":846.647,"end":871.802,"text":"你知不支持而已嘛那你就說你支持就好了嘛跟支持不支持沒有關係是跟科學的根據跟國際的規範那你科學根據哪裡來嘛哪裡來你的科學根據你告訴我如果你可以說服我我不是不能被說服的呀所有的邊境的查驗各國都有他的相關的遊戲規則那為什麼我們一開始中央政府要說他要逐批檢查他要百分之百檢查那是不是在欺騙我們的鄉親欺騙我們的消費者是嗎"},{"start":874.844,"end":877.905,"text":"我相信至少不是我嘴巴講出來的 我不知道但是之前的部長啊 之前的兩個部長都說呀 恢復部部長 農業部部長農業委會主委就說一定會保分之百檢查 那時候的行政院長蘇貞昌"},{"start":894.75,"end":897.171,"text":"他也說要百分之百檢查逐批檢查那為什麼會出爾反爾呢為什麼你要幫他們辯護呢我本來只是要求你照顧我們本土的豬農確定他們的品牌 優化他們的品牌"},{"start":913.425,"end":925.552,"text":"你為什麼要幫他們辯護呢我剛才講的我純粹針對防疫的角度我不是查驗喔防疫的角度要根據風險根據科學根據喔那至於說邊境從一百那你好好的就把這個講清楚嘛為什麼要幫他們辯護你不要說我是擁護那個萊豬窩怎麼樣的我覺得你這個就是掛帽子"},{"start":933.317,"end":937.46,"text":"我沒有要幫你掛帽子是你剛剛自己講的我問你說你是不是在幫他們辯護然後你跟我說什麼什麼科學根據我說科學根據在哪裡嘛我有沒有要求說你要照顧本土豬農有沒有我會承諾說我們一定是農業部的立場是嘛你就好好講你會支持本土豬農就好你再跟我"},{"start":956.691,"end":959.272,"text":"狗氣沙講說什麼什麼什麼什麼樣的科學證據我跟你說如果你不是自己講出這個空間我要怎麼掛你帽子我要怎麼掛你帽子你自己剛才沒有幫他辯護嗎"},{"start":971.357,"end":973.119,"text":"這不叫辯護這是從事實上那我問你願不願意幫他們說應該要恢復逐批檢查願不願意願不願意幫出農呼籲幫我們消費者呼籲衛福部說應該要"},{"start":986.773,"end":994.696,"text":"恢復逐批檢查為什麼之前的部長可以講為什麼之前的院長可以講你現在不願意講你如果不願意講的話那就有幫他們辯護的嫌疑這樣子我是不是你就有幫他辯護的嫌疑這樣可以嗎我沒有扣你帽子我只是懷疑這樣可以嗎你的專業是什麼"},{"start":1010.362,"end":1015.869,"text":"我的專業就是說你所有的檢驗一定要有科學根據那你的科學根據是什麼你沒有主題檢查你的風險哪裡來你怎麼算出那個風險的所有的東西都有取樣的標準是 我當然知道但是你要體會"},{"start":1025.342,"end":1035.55,"text":"你體會豬農的心情 他們就覺得雙標你對他們檢查那麼苛刻你講這一句話我可以接受但是你在那邊跟我胡亂說什麼因為他2至10%是因為他有什麼科學標準我不接受 我不接受2至10%是你講的喔"},{"start":1044.677,"end":1070.367,"text":"我不接受 我是問你說現在只有2至10%你能不能接受然後我問你說是不是要能夠逐臂檢查你說巴拉巴拉巴拉對 我說根據科學依據嘛我沒有巴拉巴拉我是根據科學依據那科學依據是什麼你說服我啊科學依據就是風險啊 風險的高低啊風險是什麼 多大風險你知道嗎你就不知道你要說服我我怎麼知道我不知道那你說我告訴你 所有的東西都有它的風險你說嘛 那具體是什麼你告訴我具體內容嘛我講一個很簡單的"},{"start":1074.509,"end":1092.782,"text":"一個農產品如果進口我現在跟你說萊豬你就用萊豬的跟我說我告訴你萊豬到目前為止沒有一個豔豬是超標的嘛它有含萊豬但是它是符合國內的標準嘛符合國內的標準啊所以你也支持他說不用公開流向"},{"start":1093.973,"end":1097.335,"text":"所以你也支持嗎你也支持嗎我現在就在問你嘛我問你農業部的立場嘛對啊你農業部的立場是什麼你沒有個人的想法嗎反正我現在就告訴你我現在就告訴你"},{"start":1110.985,"end":1113.767,"text":"我希望我們國家是一體的不希望農業部跟衛福部兩個就是雙重標準我希望說您能夠落實照顧豬農優化我們台灣國內的產品這一點你可以做到嗎好那這一點就麻煩那個部長要能夠落實這樣可以嗎"},{"start":1131.556,"end":1137.8,"text":"那不要再幫什麼衛福部在那邊辯護了不需要你不需要幫他們解釋也不需要幫他們辯護他們我自己會問怎麼會我問你這個你會幫他們回答呢好嗎我回答是我們你來你好好來關心他們豬農我相信豬農會非常感謝你這樣好不好我昨天才去做談的啊好不好加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時50分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我想呼應一下陳亭妃委員，有關老農津貼的排富條款是不分朝野大家都想要為老農爭取，因為現行這些規範的確對老農非常不公平，請部長再明確的表達一下，針對排富條款要放寬、要提高、要鬆綁的部分，您的態度為何呢？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，在上上個會期吧，我們立法院有一個討論，後續我們就提出一個當時農委會的版本，在那個版本裡面，我們也支持排富條款做適度的放寬。"],["張委員嘉郡：大概會放寬到什麼程度呢？"],["陳部長駿季：在還沒有經過行政院確認同意之前，我們不適合說放寬到多少。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你覺得有可能會符合一般老農的期待嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我不知道，因為每個人的期待可能不一樣，但是基本上很多委員所提到，要根據物調做調整，我們大概也是參考這樣的調整方式去設計。"],["張委員嘉郡：大概多久可以把這個決定公布呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們部會提出一個建議，最主要是需要一些經費，所以我們必須獲得行政院的支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：你的意思是說……"],["陳部長駿季：經費的部分一定要行政院支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：但放寬不需要經費啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員嘉郡：你是說放寬之後會增加的部分的經費？"],["陳部長駿季：一定會增加經費嘛！"],["張委員嘉郡：瞭解。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分一定要得到行政院的支持，所以我們一定……"],["張委員嘉郡：你們有試算過大概會增加多少嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在試算大概30億左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：大概30億左右，那可以幫助非常多的老農，所以這個要請部長要據理力爭，為我們的農民發聲，尤其是為臺灣付出一輩子的老農，我覺得非常需要部長幫他們說幾句話。","前陣子因為低溫的影響，導致雲林縣包括雲林以南的荔枝、酪梨等的結果率不佳，經縣府爭取天然災害救助之後，農業部也已經公告了，這一點我必須要代表農民給農業部肯定，非常迅速處理。但是接著還有另外一個嚴峻的問題，就是柑橘類果樹到目前為止普遍也是結果率偏低，不曉得部長知不知道這件事情？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，這些多年生的果樹從開花到結果，像荔枝是花開得很漂亮，但是它結果率不好，同樣的我們觀察到結果必須確認的時候，我們就確認了，所以就很快的開了。再說柑橘類，它一樣是會先開花，然後結果時那個生理的落果情況是怎麼樣，這個可能還要再觀察一段時間。"],["張委員嘉郡：大概多久呢？"],["陳部長駿季：大概6月底到7月中。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前我收到的消息，我直接問農業部是跟我說6月中下旬、中下旬。"],["陳部長駿季：是啊！我們傾向6月底左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們是希望越快越好，因為這些農民其實是非常焦躁不安的，很擔心自己一整年的努力就要付諸流水了，他們現在非常的焦急，希望農業部趕快啟動四方會勘，趕快去現場看，以解決他們的焦急，讓他們可以得到應有的協助，這一點請部長多多加油，要儘速，不要等到7月，我覺得7月太久了吧！"],["陳部長駿季：現在因為天候的關係，可以去看我們一定立即第一時間就去看，不會故意拖。"],["張委員嘉郡：一定要請部長要求一下他們，要儘速的處理，不要說等、等、等，等到農民都已經沒有希望了，會感覺無望的，對不對？","另外，上個禮拜，本席有向您追蹤季節性移工，就是農業移工新制的問題。農業移工是有季節性需求問題，如果申請之後還要向勞動部進行維持90天的審查，可能早就錯過生長跟採收的季節，徒增農民的困擾。部長上個禮拜有答應會親自跟勞動部洪部長談，然後把農業移工拉出來單獨審查，不曉得談的結果如何呢？"],["陳部長駿季：上次您問了以後的第二天吧，召開院會時剛好勞動部長就坐在我旁邊，我就親自跟他講了。第一個部分，就規定而言，他們是7天加7天，再加一個審查期。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：他們會以更簡化的方式，然後同樣的農業部也有責任，農業部在第一線審查的時候，以現在來講，我們農糧署在處理大概是3個禮拜到4個禮拜，甚至於再加上前面作業的話，可能要到1個月，我也希望我們農業部本身在初核時也要簡化流程，那勞動部在審查時也簡化，這樣時間上就可以有機會去壓縮。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，這就是本席要講的，本席也問了勞動部，勞動部的意思是他們好像是15天以內。"],["陳部長駿季：7天加7天。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，他們是說15天以內可以，那如果假設90天，扣除勞動部的15天，等於是農業部一個部會就要審查六十幾天耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我也曾經查過，我們農業部現在平均的審查大概是1個月到1個半月，4個禮拜到6個禮拜，但是勞動部那邊的7加7也不會那麼快，因為沒有算行政流程及最後會議的審查時間。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以希望就農業部的部分，其實部長已經很迅速的跟勞動部溝通了，是不是農業部內部也自我要求一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說的我們內部也會要加快。"],["張委員嘉郡：要減化這個流程。"],["陳部長駿季：勞動部有一部分所提供的資訊，我們還要再check一下，理論上是7加7天，但是還有一些審查流程……"],["張委員嘉郡：還有一些特殊的，我也希望如果有什麼需要調整的部分，要儘速的趕快去解決，儘量簡化。"],["陳部長駿季：我們跟勞動部大概溝通無礙，我想我們會一起努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝，這一點也請部長繼續幫我們農民追蹤，因為很多需要移工的農民，大家都非常的關心，尤其因為可以從1.2萬名的移工增加到2萬名，我想對於整體臺灣農業的幫助是非常大。","接下來本席想要請問有關於進口豬肉含瘦肉精的事情，前陣子連續三批的豬肉都驗出有萊克多巴胺，針對這樣子的食安警訊，食藥署卻表示說不會再提高抽樣的比率，也拒絕公布流向，導致有很多國內的豬農很憤慨，無法理解為什麼政府會這麼的雙標，面對進口的豬肉可以這麼寬容、這麼低調，對於國內的養豬產業只要一有違規，就會立即加強查核，然後嚴格開罰。這不但讓豬農覺得是雙標到極點，也覺得被犧牲、被忽視，甚至我們一般的消費者也覺得很無奈，這樣子的話，假設流入校園怎麼辦呢？他們如果不小心買到怎麼辦呢？所以我也很希望部長可以去理解我們豬農的心聲。農業部也一直強調要守護臺灣的農業，是不是部長也要跟食藥署包括衛福部來表達一下你的立場？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，農業部的立場就是要確保我們國內的豬產業能夠持續發展，這是非常重要的，至於進口的豬肉是由衛福部主管，我在這邊也要做一個說明。其實衛福部在邊境把關的部分，農業部是防疫的部分，他們是檢疫的部分，能夠讓它進來一定是合於國家的標準，沒有說不合於國家的標準，所以有一些誤解我覺得必須要澄清，但是以農業部來講，我們一定讓我們國內的豬肉更有品牌、更有市場區隔。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席想要請教，您知道現在食藥署針對豬肉抽樣的比例是多少嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：要看不同的國家。"],["張委員嘉郡：差不多是2%至10%。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：那您覺得這樣足夠嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：就我所了解，就以防疫的角度，因為我對他們查驗的不是很清楚，那海關的部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：當初要讓萊豬進口的時候，那時候農委會也有說一定是逐批抽樣，那到底是什麼原因降到連10%都不到的標準呢？本來是說每一批都要抽。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得查驗的部分不應該是農業部來發言，應該是查驗的機關。"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，但是當初是你們的立場，你們跟我們的鄉親講一定會要求他們都要逐批查驗，怎麼現在降到這樣子，農業部一句話也不說呢？"],["陳部長駿季：抽驗的比例跟它的風險是有關聯的，以防疫的角度，如果說……"],["張委員嘉郡：我想要知道農業部的態度，您認為應不應該恢復逐批檢驗呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我認為就是所有貨品的防疫檢驗部分會根據它的風險，如果有曾經發生過違規，查驗抽檢的比例就會提高。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席向部長提供一個最新的民調數據，消基會針對進口萊豬做了一份民調，調查結果高達90%的消費者在意是否買到瘦肉精的產品；64%的民眾表示說支持肉品應該逐批檢驗；有高達76%的民眾表示不同意販售含萊克多巴胺的肉品。部長，這就是民意啊，多數人的確是擔心吃到萊豬，也不想要買到萊豬，而且希望恢復逐批檢驗，也希望農業部可以幫他們把這個聲音發出來。另外，我想要知道的，是不是也要強烈的要求保護臺灣優質的豬肉，大家不喜歡萊豬，肯定就是我們國產豬肉的機會，我們對國產豬肉的標示也一定要清楚，一定要把品牌做出來，讓國產豬肉更受消費者的喜愛。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，國產的部分沒問題，我們一定會去加強國產豬的標示，還有一些品牌區隔。但是您剛才講的，我覺得邊境的查驗要回到科學的根據，還有國際的標準……"],["張委員嘉郡：當初是中央政府出來講的啊，講說要逐批檢查啊，怎麼會出爾反爾呢？"],["陳部長駿季：邊境抽驗是用科學根據，而不能用民意來處理！"],["張委員嘉郡：你現在說科學根據，那就逐批檢查才有科學根據啊，逐批檢查之後得出來的數據可以說服大家啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我告訴你，所有查驗都有抽檢的比例……"],["張委員嘉郡：你現在是在幫進口商說話嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我不是……"],["張委員嘉郡：你現在是在幫萊克多巴胺的豬肉說話嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：你不要污衊喔，我覺得……"],["張委員嘉郡：我的意思是，科學根據是什麼？你告訴我什麼是科學根據？"],["陳部長駿季：所有的邊境查驗的比例是根據那個農產品的風險……"],["張委員嘉郡：根據什麼？什麼風險？你現在是在幫進口的萊克多巴胺豬肉說話嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：委員，你不要這樣講喔、不要這樣講，我覺得這樣講就是污衊，我沒有針對萊克多巴胺，我是針對防疫的部分喔！"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，我是好好在跟你說，你支不支持？支不支持應該要逐批檢查？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是說所有的抽驗要回到科學的根據跟……"],["張委員嘉郡：什麼科學根據？你告訴我！"],["陳部長駿季：當你的產品如果經常違規……"],["張委員嘉郡：你如果沒有逐批檢查的話，你那個科學根據的數據哪裡來的啊？"],["陳部長駿季：科學有所謂的抽樣的根據……"],["張委員嘉郡：那為什麼中央要出爾反爾？當初不管是衛福部、農業部都說我們一定會逐批檢查，絕對不會讓萊克多巴胺超標的豬肉進口，結果上個月就來個3%。基本上，部長，我告訴你，豬農……"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，你講的都是衛福部的權責。"],["張委員嘉郡：對、對，我知道，我也會去問他們，我現在是問你的態度，你支不支持？豬農對你抱持很高的期待，他們期待的是一個能為他們發聲，替他們爭取公平競爭條件的農業部長。我想除了剛剛提到的恢復逐批檢查之外，把標示做清楚，然後要怎麼樣支持國產豬的具體措施，部長要能夠幫助他們，而不是在這裡辯護耶！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我告訴你，如果消費者對國內的豬肉有信心，我們對任何進口豬肉都不用擔心，所以農業部的重點就是讓我們的國產豬肉……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，你要好好把國產豬照顧好之外，我剛才也是只是問你而已，問你支不支持逐批檢查，難道是你可以決定要不要逐批檢查的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：防疫……"],["張委員嘉郡：我只是在問你支不支持而已。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我說要依據科學啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：那你就說你支持就好了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這跟支不支持沒有關係，是跟科學的根據、跟國際的規範。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你科學根據哪裡來嘛？哪裡來的科學根據？你告訴我，如果你可以說服我，我不是不能被說服的呀！"],["陳部長駿季：所有的邊境的查驗，各國都有相關的遊戲規則，跟它的風險有關。"],["張委員嘉郡：那為什麼一開始中央政府說會逐批檢查、要百分之百檢查？那是不是在欺騙我們的鄉親，欺騙我們的消費者？是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我相信……"],["張委員嘉郡：是在欺騙消費者嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：至少不是我嘴巴講出來的，我不知道……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是之前的部長、之前的兩個部長都說呀，衛福部部長和農委會主委就說一定會百分之百檢查，那時候的行政院長蘇貞昌也說要百分之百檢查、逐批檢查，那為什麼會出爾反爾呢？為什麼你要幫他們辯護呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這是衛福部的事情，我沒有辯護啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：本來本席只是要求你照顧本土豬農，確定他們的品牌、優化他們的品牌，你為什麼要幫他們辯護呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有辯護。我剛才說的，只是純粹針對防疫的角度，不是查驗喔！防疫的角度要根據風險及科學根據，至於邊境從一百下降到……"],["張委員嘉郡：你好好說清楚嘛！為什麼要幫他們辯護？"],["陳部長駿季：你不要說我是擁護萊豬或怎麼樣，我覺得你這個就是扣帽子。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席沒有幫你扣帽子，這是剛剛你自己說的。"],["陳部長駿季：你剛才就是這麼說的啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：本席問你，你是不是在幫他們辯護？"],["陳部長駿季：我是說不能這麼說，這不是辯護，這是……"],["張委員嘉郡：然後你又說科學根據，本席就問科學根據在哪裡嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：有時候就是一個科學根據。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席有沒有要求你要照顧本土豬農？有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我也承諾一定會，農業部的立場就是這樣做。"],["張委員嘉郡：是嘛！所以你就好好說明會支持本土豬農就好，為什麼還「五四三」說需要科學根據？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我沒有，你不要用一個疑問句挖洞喔！"],["張委員嘉郡：如果你不是自己講出這個空間，本席要怎麼扣你帽子？你剛才沒有幫他們辯護嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這不叫辯護，這是從事實查驗……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席問你願不願意幫他們說出來，應該要恢復逐批檢查。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有所謂的願不願意，這要……"],["張委員嘉郡：願不願意幫豬農呼籲？幫消費者呼籲衛福部應該恢復逐批檢查。"],["陳部長駿季：這個要根據……"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼之前的部長可以說？為什麼之前的院長可以說？你現在卻不願意說。"],["陳部長駿季：我是用專業角度回答你的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：你如果不願意說，就有幫他們辯護的嫌疑。"],["陳部長駿季：我用專業回答你的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你就有幫他們辯護的嫌疑，這樣可以嗎？本席沒有扣你帽子，本席只是懷疑，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我用專業回答你的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：你的專業是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我的專業就是所有的檢驗一定要有科學根據。"],["張委員嘉郡：你的科學根據是什麼？如果沒有逐批檢查，依據從哪裡來？你怎麼算出風險？"],["陳部長駿季：委員，你知不知道所有，東西都有取樣的標準？"],["張委員嘉郡：是，本席當然知道。"],["陳部長駿季：所以不是所有……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你要體會豬農的心情，他們覺得這是雙標，因為你們對他們的檢查是那麼苛刻。"],["陳部長駿季：政府一定會做嚴格的把關，也一定要有一個抽驗的標準。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，你說這句話，本席可以接受。但是你在那邊唬爛說抽檢2%至10%是因為有科學標準，這點本席不接受。"],["陳部長駿季：2%至10%是你說的喔！"],["張委員嘉郡：本席不接受。本席是問你，現在只抽檢2%至10%，你能不能接受？"],["陳部長駿季：這是衛福部……"],["張委員嘉郡：然後本席問你是不是能夠逐批檢查，你就巴拉巴拉巴拉。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我說要根據科學依據。我沒有巴拉巴拉巴拉，我是說要根據科學依據。"],["張委員嘉郡：科學依據是什麼？請你說服本席。"],["陳部長駿季：科學依據就是風險的高低啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：多大的風險？你知道嗎？你不知道還要說服本席！"],["陳部長駿季：你怎麼知道我不知道？"],["張委員嘉郡：那你說。"],["陳部長駿季：所有東西都有它的風險，如果曾經……"],["張委員嘉郡：具體內容是什麼？請你告訴本席具體內容嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我說一個簡單的例子，一個農產品如果進口……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席現在是和你說萊豬，你就用萊豬為例。"],["陳部長駿季：萊豬到目前為止都沒有驗出超標嘛！它有含萊克多巴胺，但是它符合國內的標準嘛！"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你也支持不用公開流向？"],["陳部長駿季：那是衛福部的權責。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你也支持嗎？本席現在是問你嘛！本席是問農業部的立場。"],["陳部長駿季：我們是農業部，不是衛福部，那是衛福部的權責。"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊！那農業部的立場是什麼？你沒有個人的想法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：農業部的立場就是以防疫的角度來說，我們是用科學根據。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席現在就告訴你，國家是一體的，我們不希望農業部和衛福部兩個部會有雙重標準。本席希望您能夠落實照顧豬農，優化臺灣國內的產品，這一點你可以做到嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個沒問題。照顧國內的產業絕對沒問題，我們一定會努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點麻煩部長落實，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好，可以。"],["張委員嘉郡：不要再幫衛福部辯護了，不需要！"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有，我們只是說科學根據。"],["張委員嘉郡：你不需要幫他們解釋，也不需要幫他們辯護，他們的部分，本席自己會問。本席問你這個部分，你為什麼要幫他們回答呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我回答的是我們防疫的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：你好好關心豬農，本席相信豬農會非常感謝你，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會的。我昨天才去豬場座談。"],["張委員嘉郡：加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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就是說我們過去在保險法146之一系列的投資規定裡面分散避免集中都是它一項我們對投資規範的概念因為過去有很多它特殊的原因所以很多的黨是高度集中"},{"start":153.931,"end":174.622,"text":"所以我支持你的做法我現在只是提醒你他們有類似追蹤的指數我們這樣分散有沒有意義這個跟我們政經局另外的政策一樣他們在審核這些基金的時候我們也要避免雷同你以後會有其他的做法其他我們在ETF也會做這樣的一個管理"},{"start":175.462,"end":202.775,"text":"什麼時候整套的管理會出來不是 這本來我們在ETF的時候本來就管理就是避免他們就是大家對 所以我才提說其實有好幾個不同黨其實都是類似最終同樣的標的嘛所以你這樣限制百分之三十有沒有意義這個是我要提醒主委的地方對 謝謝他不能集中在A他可能集中就是分散兩個類似的就是A B他都有可是我們這樣的限制有沒有意義這是我要提醒你的地方"},{"start":203.035,"end":228.724,"text":"第一個我們也考慮過因為保險公司市場的監理我們實際上基於大家一個很重要你理解我監理官的想法所以你真的要走這個東西所以你要其他的工具跟手段你才有辦法去達到你今天韓式的目的出來嘛對不對我只是提醒我沒有看到你其他的韓式的你有沒有其他的做法我還沒有看到所以今天我透過這個質詢來提醒主委"},{"start":229.244,"end":253.96,"text":"第二個也是我長期關注的我希望我有答案啦我希望後續你可以提供我答案那第二個就是我們防詐的量能齁其實從防詐的儀表板裡面我看到從二月份開始我們財損是60億然後三月份是70億四月份是76億就是說詐騙的案件仍舊是層出不窮喔那所以我們看到金管會去年曾經也要求我們銀行都要設打詐的專責的主管"},{"start":257.662,"end":274.514,"text":"之前同樣的議題我問過財政部我說我們打仗的專責的主管到底是兼任還是應該專任那目前我看到我們的公股其實都是兼任兼任其實沒有辦法達到主要的目的為什麼因為他都有其他主要的業務"},{"start":275.094,"end":294.579,"text":"都會先把他主要業務做好他不可能主要去做打賬所以這個是兼任跟專任最主要的差別所以我要請問金管會你手邊到底有沒有盤點所有的公股跟民間所有的銀行我們到底有多少是兼任多少是專任"},{"start":297,"end":322.953,"text":"我們有什麼具體的做法 希望他是專任專任比兼任好嘛 你同意我的說法對不對 主委當然 所有事情如果專職專職才能把事情做好嘛對 但是我們現在第一個先要求他們一定要有這個專職而不是專職 比如說要有這個來負責任的高階主管那以前可能沒有 那我們現在有剛剛委員講的是 這個人只做這件事情"},{"start":324.133,"end":343.858,"text":"主任我覺得因為近期我們看到銀行行員涉詐騙案越來越多這也顯示出內控失靈的狀況雖然部長今天回應我說其實有一些是他們在內部內控的機制他們自己已經警覺發聲但是如果在事前更前端他們內部有更多"},{"start":344.958,"end":370.769,"text":"不同道的警示機制說不定這些平常的標準SOP他們制定的更嚴謹說不定這些事情根本連發生的機會都沒有而不需要內控機制去察覺因為最近我們看到內控機制失靈其實是頻繁度是越來越高這個是我期望我覺得主委我們未來在盤點內部機制的時候我覺得我們應該要去處理的地方那最後一個就是"},{"start":371.949,"end":379.916,"text":"主委我要提醒一下就是說我們目前打詐的專法防制條例在去年的7月31號公佈實施那無論是從投資的詐騙網路的詐騙還有包括學生網購其實都非常的頻繁那"},{"start":388.924,"end":402.397,"text":"我提出一個建議我覺得我們現在國人對於金融的教育的部分比照國際比如說比照美國跟日本他們在高中生他們就推動金融教育課程的義務化的課程"},{"start":404.099,"end":422.211,"text":"就是說哪些無論是我們一般的民眾我覺得如果可以從學校教育對於金融的部分金融教育的義務化如果我們可以提早去做一些鋪陳我覺得對於國人金融教育也好或打詐這一個部分的資訊我覺得會更嚴謹"},{"start":423.812,"end":440.179,"text":"所以我今天提出這個質詢我希望我們可以有一個專案可以跟教育部來去做溝通未來如何從高中的課程如何從金融教育國際金融教育的部分我們可以開始去做深耕的做法可不可以"},{"start":441.175,"end":457.193,"text":"我想這個方向我們是支持一定支持因為我們即便沒有再變成課程化我們現在走入校園都是我們持續在辦的活動但是我希望有具體的做法我希望可以在三個月之內這個我提議看如何去回應我好不好主委你請回時間先暫停我可不可以請複稅署"},{"start":462.604,"end":480.865,"text":"時間一直在走 署長我不要佔用太多時間因為我這個個案可能影響到很多人我們現在不印證的部分事實上在財政部是可以列為扣除額的不印證的補助可以列為扣除額"},{"start":481.906,"end":507.157,"text":"那我這邊有一個個案就是他原本以為他做不孕症的治療那可以退稅但是後來被繳納六萬塊的稅款那醫療扣除額的部分應該跟生育政策是輔助是相輔相成那我這邊看到的是你複稅署回應說他必須這些醫療院所必須事前申請財政部的認可會計的合格才可以"},{"start":507.637,"end":532.146,"text":"我覺得這跟大法官的解釋是有衝突的因為一般民眾他去做生意的補助我們國人現在都希望真的不印證我們鼓勵他去做這件事情他都會考量第一他費用的價格跟院所的評價還有他有沒有補助但國健署是不是有補助這件事情其實是非常明確的但是至於這個醫療院所有沒有在我們複稅署裡面"},{"start":534.432,"end":554.982,"text":"申請它是可以列為扣除的這件事情通常國人都不知道我們通常只知道我現在如果有需要我不印證我去做這件事情我最後是有機會不是有機會是我一定可以列為扣除的但是我覺得我們現在的做法事實上是跟大法官的解釋是互相違背的"},{"start":556.462,"end":582.548,"text":"必須醫療院所有去申請他才可以抵扣扣除我覺得這件事情跟我們現在鼓勵生育補助鼓勵大家如果真的不孕症的話我覺得這件事情是互相違背的所以這件事情是不是可以請複稅署可以基於職權應該從個案可以去做一些審核的方法跟方式"},{"start":583.508,"end":590.754,"text":"否則我們當時去獵主扣除額這件事但目前其實大部分我們都知道人工升職的醫療院所目前在我們的申請裡面總共有12家裡面只有2家是可以免稅扣除額的"},{"start":600.282,"end":616.921,"text":"那但是事實上目前其實人工升職的醫療院所非常非常多大家只會去想說哪一間評價比較好還有費用比較合理他根本不會知道說這間是不是在扣除額裡面等到他做完之後他這一看原來這一間他沒有申請扣除額"},{"start":618.55,"end":639.059,"text":"所以這個事情我覺得賦稅署應該有不同的思考邏輯跟方式因為六萬塊對於一般年輕的夫婦他做人工生殖這件事情其實費用已經是非常的高所以署長我覺得這件事情應該從個案的部分去做一些思考"},{"start":640.317,"end":664.287,"text":"委員我快速的回應你一下其實因為我們所需要的17條裡面明明規定是要公立還有健保特約醫院還有我們所謂財政部核定會計支付網隊醫院才可以列報所以要費扣除他的立法意志主要是因為如果他沒有核實去申報收入他開出來收據如果一般的我們講的就診者那個署長"},{"start":665.527,"end":694.286,"text":"所有的醫療院所它都是合法合規的醫療院所我們現在做人工生殖沒有什麼地下的不合法不合規只是說我們我們現在就是說要列舉扣除這些醫療院所目前就只有兩家是可以扣除事實上在台灣有這麼多家都有在做人工生殖我們都希望我們這個政策我們這個列舉扣除人工生殖的補助可以列舉扣除是可以照顧所有"},{"start":695.126,"end":712.004,"text":"年輕的夫妻他有這個需求否則我們就跟鼓勵生育這件事情政府的政策是互相違背的所以我才請你再去進一步再去思考這個政策有沒有必要再去進一步的做調整因為這跟大法官的解釋事實上是互相違背的"},{"start":712.424,"end":728.973,"text":"我希望你去看一下大法官的解釋有 我跟委員報告其實我們現在有一直密切跟衛福部那邊去合作然後我們現在的方向我們最近才剛修正一個認定要點就是鼓勵我們所謂的醫療院所來申請像"},{"start":731.856,"end":755.618,"text":"醫療院所根本不會去管 可不可以抵扣他只要去管他的醫療專業做不做得好這件事情我講的你理解道理所以你看一下大法官的解釋其實是對於給付其他合法醫療院所的醫療費用不得列舉扣除這件事情其實跟憲法第七條平等原則的意旨是不符合的"},{"start":756.118,"end":774.876,"text":"所以我才請你再去回頭去看一下我們這個政策推出的時候跟大法官的解釋是互相違背我再次強調醫療院所做人工生殖這件事情他不會去管我的病人病患他可不可以列舉扣除而醫院關心的是我的醫療會不會做得好價格是不是一個合理我要訂一個什麼樣的價格"},{"start":779.6,"end":805.753,"text":"但是這整件事情跟政府其實希望鼓勵人工生殖真的鼓勵政府是可以鼓勵人工生殖我們政府也希望有一些補助所以我們的做法其實應該再進一步做調整我們現在會努力去讓我們的醫療院所能夠了解我們現在的規定然後願意來而且我們會有鼓勵的措施我們已經到初級了對 對 對那署長我不占用別的委員的時間"},{"start":807.654,"end":830.797,"text":"主動出擊去處理這件事情不要把政府的美意打對折有有有 我們都有處理謝謝謝謝委員是 謝謝燕秀我想在這裡跟副社長做一個結議希望就是因應少子化那這個人工生殖法你有一個比較具體的方式兩個禮拜提出來給我們委員會好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":796,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時49分）謝謝主席，是不是請主委？"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，剛剛聽到你對李坤城委員的回答，這半年大環境的變化，本席認為確實需要給一些彈性，因為整個大環境的變化不是我們預料得到的，確實需要一些滾動式的調整，這個部分本席也支持你的做法。主委，因為本席今天的時間有限，還有好幾個議題要問其他部會，所以請你簡答就好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，最近金管會有制定一個新規，就是壽險持有單一檔被動式ETF，持股上限只能到30%，既有超限部分只能出、不能進，媒體新聞是說5月底要上路。但是本席又聽到另外一個說法，函釋是說6月中要上路，到底是什麼時候開始實施？"],["彭主任委員金隆：具體時間請王局長簡單回答一下。"],["李委員彥秀：好，你只要簡答就好了，因為大家都想知道具體的時間點。"],["王局長麗惠：我們應該是6月份會發布函釋，現在還在開會中。"],["李委員彥秀：6月份發布函釋，之後會給彈性的時間嗎？"],["王局長麗惠：已經超過30%的部分就不再新增部位，維持現有的比率。"],["李委員彥秀：你可不可以回應本席，目前有幾家壽險公司持有單一ETF超過30%的持股？哪幾間是在示警邊緣？"],["王局長麗惠：我們事後再給委員資訊，因為這個部分我還要掌握一下，不好意思。"],["李委員彥秀：好。請問主委，新規一上路，會不會反向促使投信推出更多相同的追蹤標的物、同值性的ETF？有沒有可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：實際上在保險……"],["李委員彥秀：因為它都是追臺灣50的指數嘛！對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道，沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：它都是追蹤相關的標的指數，例如006208、0050，其實都是追蹤類似的臺灣50指數，所以這樣的限制有沒有意義？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該這麼說，我們過去在保險法第一百四十六條之一系列的投資規定，分散、避免集中都是我們對投資規範的概念。因為過去有很多特殊原因，很多檔是高度集中，所以我們現在……"],["李委員彥秀：主委，本席支持你的做法，本席現在只是提醒你，因為有類似的追蹤指數，所以這樣分散有沒有意義？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道。這和證期局另外的政策一樣，他們在審核這些基金的時候也要避免雷同，這部分我們也會做。"],["李委員彥秀：你們以後會有其他的做法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們針對ETF也會做這樣的管理啦！"],["李委員彥秀：什麼時候會提出整套的管理方法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們管理ETF的時候，本來就會這麼做，避免大家……"],["李委員彥秀：對。所以本席才會提出來，其實好幾檔都是類似的，都是追蹤同樣的標的，所以你們限制30%有沒有意義？這是本席要提醒主委的地方。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：它不能集中在A，可能就會分散在兩個類似的，就是A、B都有，所以這樣的限制有沒有意義？這是本席要提醒你的地方。"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個，這個我們也考慮過，因為對保險公司市場的監理，我們是基於一個很重要的概念，就是你要理解監理官的想法，如果你真的要這樣做的話，我們就會……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你們要有其他的工具和手段，才有辦法達到函釋的目的嘛！對不對？本席只是提醒，因為本席還沒有看到你們是否有其他做法，所以今天透過質詢提醒主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好的。"],["李委員彥秀：第二個，這也是本席長期關注的，本席希望後續你可以提供答案，就是我們防詐的量能，其實從防詐儀表板可以看到，2月份財損是60億元，3月份是70億元，4月份是76億元，詐騙案件仍舊層出不窮，所以金管會去年也曾經要求銀行都要設打詐的專責主管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員彥秀：之前同樣的議題，本席問過財政部，打詐的專責主管到底是兼任還是應該專任？目前公股其實都是兼任。但兼任沒有辦法達到主要的目的，為什麼？因為他有其他的業務，他會先把主要業務做好，不可能主要做打詐這件事，這是兼任和專任最主要的差別。所以本席要請問金管會，你們有沒有盤點所有的公股和民間銀行，到底有多少是兼任？多少是專任？有什麼具體做法希望他是專任？因為專任總比兼任好吧！主委，你同意本席的說法，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。所有的事情如果有專職是最好的，但是因為……"],["李委員彥秀：專職才能把事情做好嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。我們現在第一個是先要求他們要有負責的高階主管，這是一定要做的，以前可能沒有，但是我們現在有做這樣的要求。剛才委員說的是這個人只做這件事情，類似……"],["李委員彥秀：主委，因為近期銀行行員涉詐騙案越來越多，這也顯示內控失靈的狀況。雖然部長前幾天回應本席是說，其實有一些是他們的內控機制發現的，是他們自己警覺發生。但是如果在事前，就是在更前端，他們內部有更多的警示機制或是平常的SOP制訂得更嚴謹，說不定這些事情根本連發生的機會都沒有，不需要依靠內控機制察覺。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是我們希望的理想狀況。"],["李委員彥秀：因為最近我們看到內控機制失靈的頻繁度越來越高。這是本席的期望，主委，未來盤點內部機制的時候，這是我們應該要處理的地方。最後本席要提醒主委一下，打詐防制條例專法在去年7月31日公布實施，無論是投資詐騙、網路詐騙，包括學生網購被詐騙，其實都非常頻繁。本席提一個建議，本席覺得現在國人的金融教育，比照國際，例如美國和日本，他們對高中生就推動金融教育的課程，包括一般的民眾。本席覺得如果可以從學校教育做起，讓金融教育義務化，如果我們可以提早做一些鋪陳，對國人的金融教育也好或是打詐這個部分的資訊宣傳，本席覺得這樣會更嚴謹。所以本席今天提出質詢，希望可以提出一個專案和教育部溝通，未來如何從高中的課程做起、從金融教育、國際金融教育等部分開始深耕，可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個方向我們一定支持。即便沒有課程化，走入校園也是我們持續在辦的活動。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委，但是本席希望有具體的做法。本席希望可以在三個月之內，針對這個提議回應，好不好？主委請回。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：時間先暫停。可不可以請賦稅署？時間一直在走。署長，本席不要占用太多時間，但本席要提的這個個案可能會影響到很多人。現在針對不孕症，財政部的規定是不孕症的醫療費可以列為扣除額，本席這邊有一個個案，他原本以為做不孕症的治療可以列舉醫療費扣除額，之後可以退稅，但是後來卻需繳納6萬元稅款。","醫療扣除額的部分應該和生育政策相輔相成，但本席看到的是，賦稅署回應這些醫療院所必須事前申請，或經財政部認可會計紀錄完備才可以，本席覺得這和大法官的解釋是有衝突的。因為一般民眾可以申請生育補助，如果真的是不孕症，而且我們也鼓勵他去做這件事情，這時候他們都會考量費用和院所評價，還有是否有補助，但國健署是不是有補助做這件事情？這是非常明確的，至於這個醫療院所有沒有向賦稅署申請可以列扣除額？通常國人都不知道，我們只知道現在如果因為不孕症而去做這件事情，最後一定可以列扣除額，但是現在的做法和大法官的解釋互相違背，醫療院所必須先去申請，民眾才可以列舉扣除額。本席覺得這件事情和我們現在鼓勵生育是互相違背的，如果真的有不孕症的話。所以是不是可以請賦稅署基於職權依個案審核？否則我們當時規定可以列舉扣除額，但是目前申請的狀況是，14家人工生殖醫療院所，只有2家可以列舉免稅扣除額。事實上目前做人工生殖的醫療院所非常多，大家只會思考哪一間評價比較好、費用比較合理，他根本不知道這間是否可以列舉扣除額，等他做完療程之後，才發現這一間並沒有申請。","針對這個事情，本席覺得賦稅署應該要有不同的思考邏輯和方式，因為對一般的年輕夫婦來說，他們做人工生殖的費用非常高，所以署長，本席覺得這件事情應該就個案思考。"],["宋署長秀玲：委員，我快速回應一下。因為第十七條明文規定要公立、健保特約醫院，還有財政部核定會計紀錄完備的醫院才可以列報醫藥費扣除。它有它的立法意旨，主要是因為如果醫療院所沒有核實申報收入，它開出來的收據，如果一般的就診者可以報費用……"],["李委員彥秀：署長，所有的醫療院所都是合法、合規的，現在做人工生殖的，沒有所謂地下、不合法、不合規的。只是現在要列舉扣除額，目前只有兩家可以扣除，事實上臺灣有很多家都有在做人工生殖。我們都希望人工生殖可以列舉扣除額，因為這樣可以照顧所有有需求的年輕夫妻，否則就和鼓勵生育的政府政策互相違背。所以本席才請你再進一步思考，這個政策有沒有必要做進一步的調整，因為這和大法官解釋互相違背，本席希望你去看一下大法官的解釋。"],["宋署長秀玲：有。其實我們現在有密切和衛福部合作，最近才剛修正一個認定要點，鼓勵所有醫療院所向財政部申請。"],["李委員彥秀：你們要主動，因為醫療院所根本不會管個別年輕夫妻可不可以抵扣，他們只會在意他們的醫療專業是否能做好這件事情。"],["宋署長秀玲：我們現在會輔導，是。"],["李委員彥秀：你也理解本席所說的。所以請你看一下大法官的解釋，對於給付其他合法醫療院所的醫療費用，不得列舉扣除額這件事情，和憲法第七條平等原則的意旨是不符的，所以本席才請你再回頭去看一下，因為這個政策和大法官的解釋互相違背。"],["宋署長秀玲：有的。"],["李委員彥秀：本席再次強調，醫療院所做人工生殖這件事情，它不會去管病患可不可以列舉扣除，醫院關心的是自己的醫療行為會不會做好、價格是不是合理？要訂什麼樣的價格？但是政府鼓勵不孕症夫妻做人工生殖，也會給予一些補助，所以我們的做法應該再進一步調整，這是本席必須提醒你們的。"],["宋署長秀玲：是，了解。我們會努力讓醫療院所了解現在的規定，而且會有鼓勵的措施，我們會讓……"],["李委員彥秀：你們要主動出擊啦！"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["李委員彥秀：署長，本席不占用別的委員時間，請你們主動出擊處理這件事情，不要讓政府的美意打對折，好不好？"],["宋署長秀玲：有，我們都有處理。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝。"],["宋署長秀玲：謝謝委員。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：謝謝彥秀。本席針對賦稅署的部分做一個結議，因應少子化，針對人工生殖的醫藥費扣除，你們要提出比較具體的方式，兩個禮拜內提出來給委員會，好不好？"],["宋署長秀玲：好。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 2 案、\n(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅\n廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」\n等6案；二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳\n濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部\n分條文修正草案」等 4 案、 ( 二 ) 本院委員林楚茵等 17 人、委員王鴻薇等 19 人、委員郭國文等 18\n人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等\n4案、(三)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條\n條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145401_00006"}}},{"id":"162028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f249dd9499c1545e5edd126c33bcaff1fd1a3426710e0a50eeda120f5cf65dcc2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:52:18 - 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:[["張委員雅琳：（11時52分）我剛才在後面真的等很久。先請秘書長好了，人權處等一下。"],["主席：秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：秘書長，我剛剛在下面聽，我覺得有滿多地方可能要闢謠一下，秘書長要不要先簡單說一下特別費你還剩多少？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是零，被刪光了。"],["張委員雅琳：他一直說你拿去請客、吃飯、送禮。你們特別費平常是做什麼的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：大部分是同仁假如有額外幫我們做一些事情，我們是會獎勵他。還有逢年過節的時候，我們也會給同仁一些額外的獎勵，有一點犒賞同仁的味道，絕大部分都是這樣。還有，如果有婚喪喜慶，我們必須要送花籃。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，可能就像是韓國瑜院長在我們立法委員生日、母親節的時候也會送我們一些禮物一樣，這是特別費的費用，你們現在還剩多少？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：它就是零。"],["張委員雅琳：就是零？所以就沒有了，已經刪掉了，對不對？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["張委員雅琳：剛剛還講到我們怎麼刪掉救命錢，就我所理解的，秘書長也可以幫我核對一下，據我所知，內政部裡面的空勤總隊國內旅費是被刪了20%，還有其國外旅費、出國訓練費都被刪減了15%，其實都會影響我們飛行員的訓練，還有一些維護的資源，也會影響他的專業能力以及他可能沒有辦法有一些例行的會議，這是救難錢的部分。還有消防署的災後復原與消防訓練也都會受到限制，這是我的理解。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。不只是內政部，其他的部會也都一樣，包括數位發展部的業務費被砍掉了大概40%，我們行政院總共5億的業務費被砍掉了2億。"],["張委員雅琳：像我自己之前一直非常在乎新南向的預算，讓我們很多小朋友的一些團體有機會可以不要只去中國而可以到新南向的一些國家去做體育的交流，據我所知，這個經費也被刪減，是誰刪的呢？就是國民黨跟民眾黨聯手刪掉，所以冤有頭、債有主，當初他們不要刪的話，現在也不會發生這件事情，所以這還是要回頭去究責藍、白。","接下來回到我自己原本的問題，我今天其實最主要是想要先問秘書長，就是我一直都非常關心促轉基金的創新運用，因為我認為它應該要有更多的公私協力來支持民間關心這個議題的一些相關的行動，而不是去補貼部分公務部門的一些公務預算支出。其實我從去年開始進到立法院到現在，基本上在每一次的總質詢或者是在上次的經濟委員會，我也有去質詢過劉主委，但我也發現，11月21號院長主持的行政院推動轉型正義會報也曾經作出決議，要求國發會應該要去規劃促轉基金，期能達成所謂的公私協力，而且要更友善民間的綜合性補助計畫，可是我到目前都沒有看到具體的方案，所以到底規劃進度是什麼？行政院真的認同促轉基金應該要有更多的公私協力跟創新運用嗎？我想問一下你們的態度。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們已經請國發會在研擬當中，實際的狀況……"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，我先請教一下秘書長，就是我們到底認不認同這件事？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是、是，態度上……"],["張委員雅琳：行政院是認同的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好，接下來我就想要請問一下，因為其實今年政府也頒了轉型正義階段性政策重點的一個策進方案，對於促進轉型正義說要強化民主韌性以及要做民間扎根、社會有感，到底我們現在做了什麼？我們有沒有開始做一些社會討論？可不可以請人權處處長簡短的說明一下目前的進度？"],["賴處長俊兆：謝謝委員關心這個事情，的確今年二月行政院發布了這個策進方案，當中很重要的就是要扎根民間社會、強化民主韌性。所以針對委員關心的促轉基金這個部分，我們其實在去年底開始到今年三月，在有限的預算規模底下，我們也進行了一些社會溝通跟討論，在這個討論的過程中，其實一個部分是包含預計在接下來的會報會提出有關促轉基金……"],["張委員雅琳：六月的時候應該就要會報了嘛？半年嘛，六月的時候應該就要會報了。剛剛聽起來，你們已經做了一些社會溝通了，所以在六月會報你們會提出一個比較完整的計畫嗎？"],["賴處長俊兆：是，我們會提出一個促轉基金的策略計畫，回扣到我們現在促轉條例第七條的五個法定用途，比較重要的是剛剛委員所關心的後面的機制。"],["張委員雅琳：對，公私協力的部分。"],["賴處長俊兆：這個機制其實在去年卓院長十一月的會報有責成國發會做研議，目前我們所掌握到的，也就是在會報的網站上面公開的今（114）年轉型正義相關的業務規劃裡面，國發會的確也把目前第一季、第三季相關的進度……有把公私協力的活化機制納入他們的工作項目當中。"],["張委員雅琳：其實我自己去問，不管是國發會也好、檔案局也好，我會覺得資金的進度還是相當有限，因為我不太確定這些社會討論的部分到底檔案局或是國發會有沒有去加入？他們有沒有真的去了解民間真正的一些期待或者是他們到底希望建立一個什麼樣的友善機制？我不是那麼確定，但我的感覺是似乎看起來都還是比較消極，所以如果今天你們已經做了社會討論，接下來就是國發會跟人權處這邊要如何來把……因為六月之後這個接下來是不是就回到國發會了？"],["賴處長俊兆：是。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來這一段是要如何的去進行呢？"],["賴處長俊兆：因為這個策略計畫搭配現在院作為基金的主管機關，執行機關是國發會，主要是責成在檔案局，的確在整個策略計畫發布的之前跟之後，我們也需要再跟國發會做比較密切的溝通。至於委員關心社會討論的部分，先前在跟國發會的幾次內部溝通當中，他們也承諾說會把一些相關社會討論的過程在他們整個公私協力的機制裡面納入。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這樣聽起來，我覺得我還是希望行政院秘書長這邊應該要來更積極地去要求國發會來落實這件事情，我請問一下秘書長，這個是不是可以請秘書長來要求國發會跟人權處在兩週內提供一個你們現在做的一些規劃報告跟進度到我的辦公室，讓我們來了解一下這個事情，好嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好。"],["張委員雅琳：因為如此我們才能夠去確保到底這個過程裡面是不是真的可以讓民間覺得它的可近用性是高的，然後這個部分是不是可以請秘書長這樣子去要求呢？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：好，接下來的會報，因為下次會報是11月，希望可以在會議裡要求國發會積極監督他們，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：可以，可以。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員王鴻薇所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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秘書長秘書長張維豪這邊你們刪了 砍了這個地方的補助款不只是違法亂七根本就是不顧人民的死活秘書長你應該知道嘛你現在砍掉是什麼預算這地方補助款是什麼事社會福利預算欸照顧最弱勢的長輩跟小孩"},{"start":51.141,"end":73.931,"text":"教育地方的基礎建設有些甚至是救命錢你們怎麼砍得下手呢636的空白就不會發生這樣的事636為什麼是空白你剛才說636沒辦法砍沒辦法捅山這裡面有兩個很重要的原則我覺得你們一直在扭曲一直在造謠我先給你一個個案"},{"start":77.087,"end":99.873,"text":"636自行調整這個在第一年來通商的預算要行政院自己調整每年都有嘛對不對第一個每年都有這是第一個原則第二個你們在喊636你們沒辦法處理我給你一個可以處理的案子同樣是民進黨執政2002年總統什麼人陳水北嘛行政議長"},{"start":101.591,"end":115.16,"text":"張慶雄 同樣是民進黨執政那一年要行政院去自行調整要刪掉多少錢 658億比例的636更加多耶那一年有沒有調整好那一年解決啦為什麼陳水扁可以賴清德不行為什麼張慶雄可以處理 總統他不行你們根本就是違法亂計啊"},{"start":129.912,"end":134.877,"text":"第一個每一年都有通商要你自行調整第二個你的金額也不是最大的現在更可惡的你們還去砍那個跟人民最有關係的上次我已經罵你們罵一頓了你們在砍勞工的退休金"},{"start":152.145,"end":179.105,"text":"靠從罕見疾病健保的這個錢我說你們從政久了什麼心變硬變黑了是不是你那天我就跟你們講人民相關的錢一碼錢都不能砍你要砍那時候從你們特別費開始嘛先砍自己的啊特別費是零了對啊特別費我那時候就講你們人民的事情不重視你們砍人民的錢從你們開始嘛所以我那天我就主張特別費從總統一直到行政院長到部委首長錢砍嘛後來很客氣啊"},{"start":182.918,"end":206.236,"text":"有些砍了全部 有些砍了六成而已你們做不完 憑什麼頂頭白皮拿這個錢去請客啊 送禮啊當然要砍啊 這一天更加生氣了那時候砍什麼勞退的這個錢現在弄到砍的是社福的預算 你們怎麼砍得下去啊你們有沒有天良 有沒有良心啊"},{"start":208.049,"end":214.531,"text":"好啦,我已經很清楚跟你講了回去跟總統跟行政院長講以前的陳水扁可以做張建雄可以處理,憑什麼中泰跟賴清德處理不來那你說找不到錢,我幫你找錢你當過國發會主委國發基金農會要落鹹中,那你怎麼沒錢國發基金去投資聯合再生虧損多少八四了啦"},{"start":239.192,"end":257.203,"text":"投資了如新牛仔褲虧損多少?12.38千載交通一來一去啦現在怎麼沒錢?更何況你今年還是歷年來卻薪高的將近三兆的預算欸你們很窮你們砍那個最弱勢的地方政府接下來我要跟你談違法亂紀在哪裡?"},{"start":266.088,"end":274.611,"text":"這是明明先過我剛剛已經跟你開宗明義講了以前有例子你們本來就要解決問題你們不解決結果現在砍了人民救命錢我們在審查預算的時候看下一張要你去通刪歷年來都這樣嘛不只今年你去翻以前要通刪的通案刪減的按鈕刪的是誰中央各機關及所屬"},{"start":295.094,"end":317.4,"text":"你到底有沒有看到有地方補助這是第一個第二個地方補助款我們省的時候一毛錢也沒有刪啊第三個才化法三十條不能比上一年度減少你三個都違反了耶第四個也是很離譜的"},{"start":319.178,"end":335.573,"text":"地方補助款你在前一年的八月份你就要通知他對不對你做國會主席要顧這必須定 背後對不對前一年八月你跟人家講各個縣市已經編好了經過各個地方議會通過了因為立法院刪掉了我們也沒辦法"},{"start":336.212,"end":343.276,"text":"你為什麼一直在扣這個立法院刪掉立法院從法內傳一層面要刪的是中央政府跟手指的各機關更明確的補助款一毛錢沒有砍對不對第三個財務法還有那條線在那邊你怎麼會講是立法院砍的"},{"start":353.557,"end":358.86,"text":"而且就不能砍這一筆嘛你要砍的我剛剛跟你講啦上次我跟你講砍特別費砍了嘛對不對今天我就更明確跟你講國發基金浪費的錢這是為什麼要砍這636第一個膨脹太多嘛"},{"start":372.558,"end":393.575,"text":"歷史有史以來最高的 你比去年一下子膨脹了8.2%地市突破3兆耶 當然要砍啊而且浪費那麼多 避孕那麼多你應該是從你的國發基金浪費的地方去砍嘛你怎麼砍人民咧 砍地方政府咧國發基金的預算很少 沒有636億沒有636億 對啊 你現在最少也一兩百億可以做對不對浪費我剛剛已經練了100多億給你聽了吧"},{"start":399.734,"end":404.135,"text":"我們需要稅出預算那636為什麼2002年張建雄可以找得到你們找不到我們也很無奈要回去找不是無奈你回答我從政的初衷是什麼你為什麼會給2500億給地方政府原先的預算就是要支持地方政府"},{"start":429.096,"end":454.796,"text":"但是有了636這樣的空盤預算我們其他的已經已經砍掉了1400多億所以所以這個也是為什麼我講無奈的立法院很清楚當初為什麼要這個通案的刪減我告訴你有史以來都有2002年還比你多那為什麼要這樣刪第一個你膨脹太快第二個你有浪費跟弊案嘛我今天都很明確跟你講國發基金是其中一部分嘛"},{"start":456.197,"end":473.69,"text":"2002年他也去找到錢嘛你有潛力可行聽聽我講你有潛力可行你要走正道啊你怎麼反而回過頭去砍那個罪不應該砍的不只是違法喔你現在摸著良心講立定你摸著良心講你現在砍的那個地方補助社福的預算"},{"start":474.631,"end":490.621,"text":"你這樣怎麼對得起那些長輩 對得起那些小孩教育的費用耶 地方建設的基礎建設耶二十幾年來只有2002年跟今年發生而已表示這種狀況 它是不尋常的不尋常 那為什麼2002年可以解決為什麼你沒辦法解決"},{"start":493.162,"end":514.779,"text":"你給主計長來報告你們提出的某些解決方案啊不是完全不行欸最重要是你浪費了你的弊案你要處理嘛現在這兩個大問題你自己沒有反省去解決真的要砍掉浪費跟弊案的錢第二個你去砍的最不應該砍的錢嘛不知道你摸著良心你砍的是人家"},{"start":516.616,"end":537.223,"text":"攸關他們說長輩跟年輕人 社福的預算欸 教育的預算欸基礎建設的預算欸 你怎麼可以砍這筆預算咧我們也很無奈你無奈 你要去解決問題嘛 對不對回到初期 如果各地方政府有需要的時候 我們會協助各地方政府如果有需要 我們會協助"},{"start":539.637,"end":562.543,"text":"學術 這個是在法定上應該給的錢嘛你們不應該砍就還給人家啊 什麼叫學術人家現在就告你們了嘛現在連蔣萬安都說提行政訴訟嘛 對不對立委都當場都檢舉了嘛我們克扣稅 克扣稅嘛 我們就追究你們責任好啦 秘書長 我做一個結論啦人在公門好休閒 今天包括主席總署"},{"start":564.417,"end":569.821,"text":"你說租界主計長是新來的 為台南起來你們主計總署都這麼資深 那麼優雅的官員對不對你們去看看以前的個案怎麼處理的每一年的通商都可以處理 2002年可以處理你們主計長如果是新來的 你們有資深的 你們要幫他解決問題啊我做一個結論啦 回到初心"},{"start":589.841,"end":595.082,"text":"回到初心 人在公門好修行不要違法亂紀 更不要對不起人民 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時42分）請秘書長。"],["主席：秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：秘書長，這一次你們刪了、砍了地方的補助款，不只是違法亂紀，根本就是不顧人民的死活！秘書長應該知道你現在砍掉的是什麼預算吧？地方補助款是要用來做什麼事情？社會福利預算耶！照顧最弱勢的長輩跟小孩；教育、地方的基礎建設，有些甚至是救命錢，你們怎麼砍得下手？你們還有良心嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：如果沒有636的空白就不會發生這樣的事。"],["張委員啓楷：636為什麼是空白？你剛才說636沒辦法砍、沒辦法統刪，這裡面有兩個很重要的原則，我覺得你們一直在扭曲、一直在造謠，我先給你一個個案，636自行調整，我們在歷年來通刪的預算要行政院自己調整是每年都有嘛，對不對？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：但是今年的金額實在太大……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，每年都有，這是第一個原則。第二個，你們在喊636你沒辦法處理，我給你一個可以處理的案子，同樣是民進黨執政，2002年總統是什麼人？陳水扁嘛！行政院長──張俊雄，同樣是民進黨執政，那一年要行政院去自行調整，要刪掉多少錢？658億，比636還要多！那一年有沒有調整好？那就可以解決啦！為什麼陳水扁可以，賴清德不行？為什麼張俊雄可以處理，卓榮泰不行？你們根本就是違法亂紀啊！第一個，每一年都有通刪，要你自行調整。第二個，你的金額也不是最大的。現在更可惡的是，你們還去砍那個跟人民最有關係的預算，上次我已經罵你們罵一頓了，財劃法剛過，你們就砍勞工的什麼退休金、砍什麼罕見疾病健保給付的錢！你們從政久了，心變硬、變黑了是不是？那天我就跟你們講，人民相關的錢一毛錢都不能砍，你們要砍就從你們特別費開始，先砍自己的啦！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：特別費是零，已經砍光了。"],["張委員啓楷：特別費的部分，我那時候就講，人民的事情你們不重視，你們要砍人民的錢，應該從你們開始嘛！所以我那天就主張特別費從總統一直到行政院長、各部會首長先砍嘛，後來很客氣，有些砍了全部、有些砍了六成而已……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：行政院全部全刪。"],["張委員啓楷：你們做不好憑什麼領特別費？拿這個錢去請客、送禮，當然要砍啊！這些更讓人生氣了，那時候砍了什麼勞退的錢，現在變成砍的是社福的預算，你們怎麼砍得下去啊？你們有沒有天良？有沒有良心啊？我今天已經很清楚跟你講了，回去跟總統跟行政院長講，以前的陳水扁可以做、張俊雄可以處理，憑什麼卓榮泰跟賴清德就處理不來？你說找不到錢，我幫你找錢，你當過國發會主委，國發基金浪費得多麼嚴重，怎麼會沒錢？國發基金去投資聯合再生虧損多少？140億！投資了如興牛仔褲虧損了多少？12.38億。我隨便舉例就是億來億去啊！行政院怎麼會沒錢？更何況今年還是歷年來新高的，將近3兆的預算耶！你們還喊窮！你們砍那個最弱勢的地方政府！","接下來我來跟你談違法亂紀在哪裡？我剛剛開宗明義就已經跟你講了以前有歷史，你們本來就要解決問題，你們不解決，結果現在砍了人民的救命錢，我們在審查預算的時候要你去通刪，歷年來都這樣嘛！不是今年才這樣，你去翻以前要通案刪減的案由，刪的是誰？中央各機關及所屬。你哪一隻眼睛看到有地方補助？這是第一個。第二個，地方補助款的部分，我們審的時候一毛錢也沒有刪啊！第三個，財劃法第三十條規定不能比上一年度減少。你三個都違反耶！第四個也是很離譜的，地方補助款部分，你在前一年的八月份就要通知它，對不對？你做了那麼久的國發會主委、又當秘書長，八月份，對不對？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：前一年的八月你要跟人家講，各個縣市已經編好了，也經過各地方議會通過了。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為立法院刪掉了，我們也沒辦法。"],["張委員啓楷：你為什麼一直說立法院刪掉？從法律層面，立法院要刪的是中央政府跟所屬各機關，更明確地說，補助款一毛錢沒有砍，對不對？第三個，財劃法還有那一條規定在那邊，你怎麼會講是立法院砍的？是行政院砍的，大家也看得出來是行政院砍的，而且就不能砍這一筆嘛！你要砍的，我剛才已經跟你講了！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：所以我們當初為什麼會提出覆議跟釋憲……"],["張委員啓楷：上次我跟你講砍特別費，砍了嘛！對不對？今天我就更明確地講，國發基金浪費的錢，這次為什麼要砍這636？第一個，膨脹太多，有史以來最高的，比去年一下子膨脹了8.2%，第一次突破3兆，當然要砍啊！而且浪費那麼多、弊案那麼多，你應該是從國發基金浪費的地方去砍，怎麼會砍人民、砍地方政府呢？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：國發基金的預算很少，沒有636億……"],["張委員啓楷：現在最少也一、兩百億可以做，對不對？浪費的部分，我剛剛已經唸了一百多億給你聽了吧？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們是要歲出預算……"],["張委員啓楷：還推責任！其他地方浪費了，636為什麼2002年張俊雄可以找得到，你們就找不到？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們也很無奈。"],["張委員啓楷：要回去找，不是光會講無奈。秘書長，從政的初衷是什麼？你一個這麼有名的學者，來到行政院國發會當主委，你的初心是什麼？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們為什麼會編2,500億給地方政府？原先的預算就是要支持地方政府，但是有了636這樣的空白預算，我們其他的已經砍掉了一千四百多億元，所以這個也是為什麼我講無奈的原因。"],["張委員啓楷：秘書長，立法院很清楚當初為什麼要有這個通案的刪減，有史以來都有，2002年還比這多，為什麼要這樣刪？第一個，膨脹太快。第二個，有浪費跟弊案，我今天就很明確跟你講，國發基金是其中一部分，2002年他也去找到錢，你有前例可循，你要走正道啊！你怎麼反而回過頭去砍那個最不應該砍的？不只是違法，你現在摸著良心講，你現在砍那個地方補助、社福的預算，你這樣怎麼對得起那些長輩？怎麼對得起那些小孩？教育的費用、地方的基礎建設耶！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，二十幾年來，只有2002年跟今年發生這種狀況，表示它是不尋常的，甚至也不合理。"],["張委員啓楷：既然不尋常，為什麼2002年可以解決，而你沒辦法解決？你叫主計長來報告，你們也提出某些解決方案，不是完全不行耶！最重要的是你們浪費了、你們的弊案要處理嘛！現在是這兩個大問題，你自己沒有反省、沒有去解決，沒有砍浪費跟弊案的錢。第二個，你去砍了最不應該砍的錢！你摸著良心，你砍的是攸關那麼多長輩跟年輕人社福的預算、教育的預算、基礎建設的預算，你怎麼可以砍這些預算？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們也很無奈。"],["張委員啓楷：你要去解決問題啦！回到初心啦！人在公門好修行……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：各地方政府如果有需要，我們會協助。"],["張委員啓楷：協助？這是法定上應該給他們的錢，你們不應該砍就還給人家啊！什麼叫協助？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：那是立法院的決議。"],["張委員啓楷：人家現在就告你們了，現在連蔣萬安都提行政訴訟，對不對？立委都當場檢舉了，你們剋扣稅，我們就追究你們的責任。好啦，秘書長，我做一個結論，人在公門好修行，今天包括主計總處，你說主計長是新來的，從臺南上來的，你們主計總處都是這麼資深、那麼優良的官員，對不對？你們去看看以前的個案怎麼處理的，每一年的通刪都可以處理，2002年可以處理，主計長如果是新來的，你們有資深的人要幫他解決問題啊！","我做一個結論：回到初心、回到初心，人在公門好修行，不要違法亂紀，更不要對不起人民。謝謝。"],["主席：請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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請秘書長"},{"start":10.527,"end":40.059,"text":"歐委好是秘書長好我想今天剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於就是這個行政院在去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候那時候有附帶一個114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法律15支出明細表一份也就是這一份那這一份呢因為先前已經有些委員有問了那我只想要問您請教您就是說"},{"start":40.619,"end":64.454,"text":"这份明细表它的法律意义是什么依照这份明细表里面所列的这些预算这些项目对不起我刚拿错了就是依照这个明细表里面所列的这些预算项目它的意义是什么是可以任意删减的吗"},{"start":65.526,"end":92.257,"text":"可以任意不執行嗎我是不是請主席總書的同仁說明一下然後編列的時候跟委員報告一下委員公文上面的依法利益物支出其實是我們在審查預算的過程當中的分類那為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是因為說如果被歸為依法利益物支出的話代表說我們在審查預算的過程當中必須要去注意說這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的"},{"start":92.737,"end":116.836,"text":"可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的這個標準跟數額那以這個一般性補助款來講的話在地制法跟財務法只有規定說中央要著於補助沒有規定說數額是多少所以說這個預算裡面是估計的數字是有強勁的空間我想這是你們自己列出來的支出明細表裡面每一項都有先聽我說"},{"start":119.658,"end":148.199,"text":"这个部分是你每一项都有清楚的列出那个数额数字那么不仅仅是针对一般的补助款然后甚至包含像是这个增补什么基金拨补基金然后对于社会福利津贴补助等等都在这份明细表里面那么现在本席质疑的就是我们已经立法院经过三读通过各项"},{"start":149.58,"end":172.457,"text":"這個依照法律義務支出的這個經費那麼通過了這些經費它的意義是什麼這個經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算它的意義是什麼報告委員現在就是說這個自行3.636也是在這個法定預算之前的這個法定預算我先要問你經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼請問秘書長意義是什麼"},{"start":177.083,"end":199.741,"text":"因為在三讀通過以後要我們自行刪減636現在的問題很清楚經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算法定預算我不是指那6361所有的法定預算的項目他是不是概念上在法律的解釋上他叫措施性法律"},{"start":200.902,"end":217.996,"text":"竟然是措施性法律通过他就具有什么法律的拘束力他就必须要去执行换句话说行政院没有权利不执行也没有这个权利不按照通过的预算表去核发这些经费"},{"start":219.677,"end":246.075,"text":"今天因為對於6361的解釋我們剛已經講很清楚在我們中央我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及他的所屬機關不涵蓋到地方政府剛剛黃國昌委員這個部分已經講很清楚了我也不勞煩這個秘書長您再重複一次因為你們的法律借鑒是錯誤的我們刪的是中央政府的預算那接下來我想要提出"},{"start":249.038,"end":271.996,"text":"中央政府及所屬機關中央政府就說好我接下來要問的是另外一個問題在這次行政院有提出針對中央政府總預算申請釋憲那麼請問你們在申請釋憲之前你們有徵詢過司法院考試院的意見嗎他們有同意你們要提出申請釋憲嗎"},{"start":276.344,"end":295.172,"text":"據我了解應該是會有溝通但是實際狀況不是我去溝通我就沒有辦法了解是不是有這樣的情況我在這裡跟秘書長報告我昨天有問了禮拜一的這個質詢質詢司法院司法院的王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢"},{"start":296.789,"end":312.784,"text":"沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢所以行政司法院跟考試院我認為他們可能也不見得有接受到行政院有徵詢他們意見要不要針對他們的預算一起去申請釋憲既然你們現在已經申請釋憲了我接下來想要問的問題就是說如果說"},{"start":319.751,"end":333.843,"text":"因為柯建民總召說假設這個大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的那麼總預算將案源編列使用請問主計處還有運輸長是如柯總召這麼說嗎假設"},{"start":341.643,"end":351.387,"text":"這個我們的這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部的違憲那接下來是要怎麼樣的處理我們已經執行執行完畢的預算我們就要依照這個大法官的解釋來辦理所謂大法官解釋就是有可能退回重審啊假設他退回給立法院重審請問主席我們這時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":370.609,"end":373.932,"text":"我們是要重新審過嘛我們每一項預算重新審過對不對這個還是要看大法官到時候好我要講就是說你們必須要去講清楚這個預算退回立法院重審那代表說我們有可能就現行的預算刪減的更多或是凍結的更多你們現在已經正在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回"},{"start":399.127,"end":417.453,"text":"我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚他後續的一些法律的問題還是法官會可以回答嗎大法官會做怎麼樣的裁處我們也實在不知道所以這都是假設性的我也沒有辦法在這裡等到大法官有正確的"},{"start":418.473,"end":448.173,"text":"到现在到好坏的做法非常有可能那就站在你们民进党政府这一边所以我要讲就是说因为过去从来没有针对过这个总预算案来申请事先甚至我认为大法官都不应该受理都不应该受理总预算案的这事先案但他们现在还没有处理可是我觉得这个问题很严重主计总处还有甚至审计部都应该要先讲清楚如果说是这个预算退回立法院重审我们要怎么样审法"},{"start":449.353,"end":468.581,"text":"還有就是省當然退回我們立法院重申我們一定會全部重新省不會這個按照你們行政院的意然後這都不省或是按照全部你們立法院行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目然後就完全的放水同意這是不可能的中間如果說有任何的預算經費有變化行政院的"},{"start":471.792,"end":495.509,"text":"你們有想出來要怎麼解決嗎主計處還有審計部要怎麼解決嗎我希望這個秘書長這裡可以給我一份報告好嗎你們既然提出了事先案就應該要對後續的這個可能會產生的問題要有所因應這個提出因應策略可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告好不好下禮拜吧下禮拜三之前那就麻煩你們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時33分）有請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長好。剛剛很多委員都已經問了您有關於行政院去年在送114年度中央政府總預算案的時候，那個時候有附帶一份「114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表」，也就是這一份，因為先前已經有些委員有問了，所以我只想要請教您，這一份明細表它的法律意義是什麼？依照這個明細表裡面所列的這些預算項目，它的意義是什麼？是可以任意刪減的嗎？可以任意不執行嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我是不是請主計總處的同仁說明一下？在編列的時候。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，可以，請。"],["吳專門委員銘修：委員，公文上面的「依法律義務支出」，其實是我們在審查預算過程當中的分類，為什麼要這樣分類的原因就是說，如果被歸為依法律義務支出的話，代表我們在審查預算的過程當中，必須要去注意這些支出在法律上是有規定需要去支出的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["吳專門委員銘修：可是不是所有的法律都有規定明確的標準和數額，以一般性補助款來講，在地制法跟財劃法只有規定中央要酌予補助，沒有規定數額是多少，所以預算裡面估計的數字是有彈性的空間。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝你。我想這個部分是你們自己列出來的，支出明細表裡面每一項都有……"],["吳專門委員銘修：可以再跟委員報告……"],["翁委員曉玲：你先聽我說。"],["吳專門委員銘修：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分你是每一項都有清楚地列出數額、數字，不僅僅是針對一般的補助款，甚至包含什麼增補基金、撥補基金，對於社會福利津貼補助等等，都在這份明細表裡面，那麼現在本席質疑的是，立法院三讀通過各項依照法律義務支出的經費，通過了這些經費，它的意義是什麼？經過我們立法院三讀通過的法定預算，它的意義是什麼？"],["吳專門委員銘修：報告委員，現在就是說自行刪減636億也是在這個法定預算之前的預算案審議的一環。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在問你，經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算的意義是什麼？請問秘書長，意義是什麼？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，因為在三讀通過以後，要我們自行刪減636億，我們就是按照這個決議……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們一直都在鬼打牆，我現在的問題很清楚，經過立法院三讀通過的法定預算，我不是指那636億，所有法定預算的項目，在概念上、在法律的解釋上，它叫措施性法律，既然是措施性法律，通過它就具有什麼？具有法律的拘束力，它就必須要去執行，換句話說，行政院沒有權力不執行，也沒有權力不按照通過的預算表去核發這些經費。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：委員，如果按照這個邏輯，636億我們就沒有辦法刪。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天對於636億的解釋，我們剛剛已經講得很清楚，我們這次通過只是拘束了中央政府以及它的所屬機關，不涵蓋到地方政府，剛剛黃國昌委員對這個部分已經講得很清楚了，我也不勞煩秘書長您再重複一次，因為你們的法律見解是錯誤的，我們刪的是中央政府的預算。好，接下來我想要請教……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：一般性補助也是中央預算。"],["吳專門委員銘修：委員，可以……"],["翁委員曉玲：中央政府及所屬機關。","好，我接下來要問的是另外一個問題，這一次行政院有針對中央政府總預算聲請釋憲，請問你們在聲請釋憲之前，有徵詢過司法院、考試院的意見嗎？他們有同意你們提出聲請釋憲嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：據我瞭解，應該是會有溝通啦！但是實際狀況不是我去溝通，我就沒有辦法瞭解是不是有這樣的情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我在這裡跟秘書長報告，我在禮拜一有質詢司法院，司法院王副秘書長說他們沒有接受到任何的徵詢、沒有接受到行政院的意見徵詢，所以我認為司法院和考試院可能也不見得有接受到行政院徵詢他們的意見，要不要針對他們的預算一起去聲請釋憲。","好，既然你們現在已經聲請釋憲了，我接下來想要問的問題是，因為柯建銘總召說，假設大法官宣判114年的總預算是違憲的，那麼總預算將按原編列使用，請問主計總處還有秘書長，是如柯總召這麼說嗎？假設這次的總預算可能被大法官宣告一部或是全部違憲，那接下來要怎麼樣處理？我們已經執行完畢的預算要怎麼處理？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們就要依照大法官的解釋來辦理。"],["翁委員曉玲：所謂大法官的解釋，就是有可能退回重審啊！假設他退回給立法院重審，請問主計總處，我們這時候要怎麼辦？我們每一項預算都要重新審過，對不對？"],["吳專門委員銘修：這個還是要看大法官到時候決議的狀況。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我要講的是你們必須要去講清楚，這個預算退回立法院重審，那代表我們有可能就現行的預算刪減得更多或是凍結得更多，你們現在已經執行完畢的這些預算之後要怎麼追回？我不知道行政院有沒有想清楚後續的一些法律問題？還是法規會可以回答？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：大法官會作怎麼樣的裁處，我們也實在不知道，所以這些都是假設性的問題，我也沒有辦法在這裡答復。等到大法官有正確的釋憲出來之後，我們會向各位說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：依照現在大法官的作法，非常有可能……他就站在民進黨政府這一邊啊！過去從來沒有針對過總預算案來聲請釋憲，甚至我認為大法官都不應該受理總預算案的釋憲案，當然他們現在還沒有處理，可是我覺得這個問題很嚴重，主計總處甚至審計部都應該要先講清楚，如果這個預算退回立法院重審，我們要怎麼樣的審法？還有若退回立法院重審，我們一定會全部重新審，不會按照行政院的意，然後都不審或是按照全部行政院所提出來的預算原編列項目，然後就完全的放水同意，這是不可能的！中間如果有任何的預算經費有變化，行政院有想出來要怎麼解決嗎？主計總處還有審計部要怎麼解決？我希望秘書長可以給我一份報告，好嗎？你們既然提出了釋憲案，就應該要對後續可能會產生的問題有所因應、提出因應策略，可以一個禮拜之內給我這份報告，好不好？下禮拜三之前？那就麻煩你們。"],["主席：好，請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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希望今天左榮泰看是不是責成行政院發一個新聞稿講話不算話一而再再而三跳票跳票成這個樣子也問不到他本人大家都拿他沒辦法現在左榮泰是覺得自己是太上皇是不是愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹第二個問題"},{"start":143.223,"end":157.406,"text":"之前行政院送來立法院審議的NCC主委加委員總共四個人嘛主委因為NCC組織法的修正已經不合格了剩下的三個人行政院也要撤回名單嗎我問過議事處了 到目前為止沒有撤回但是我現在有點看不懂總統他說他要提出一個新的名單出來"},{"start":168.761,"end":194.145,"text":"聽起來好像不是只有主委但舊的名單也還沒有撤回去所以現在行政院送到本院來請求本院審議的那份名單除了主委已經喪失法定資格以外另外三位行政院現在的立場是什麼希望立法院處理希望的話我就請交通委員會排案了"},{"start":195.199,"end":206.909,"text":"不希望的話什麼時候會名單要撤回去還是你也不知道對我實際狀況我是不知道但是據我了解應該會更替"},{"start":208.527,"end":231.224,"text":"那如果要更替的話行政院負責任一點好不好先把這個名單撤回去嘛我會轉到該撤不撤放在立法院裡面如果連行政院秘書長都搞不清楚狀況的話那全中華民國沒有幾個人搞得清楚狀況只有一個人搞得清楚狀況就是一而再再而三跳票的卓榮燙"},{"start":234.724,"end":263.797,"text":"今天委員啊大家關心的另外一個事情啊喔對我再插一句話行政院委員要撤回動作要快意思表示要清楚否則的話我要請交通委員會開始排案了直接公聽會排下去三位沒有撤回名單的請來立法院這三位有沒有跟行政院院長表達詞意還是你也不知道這個我不知道你也不知道"},{"start":267.827,"end":292.922,"text":"好來 下一個事情就看你知不知道了今天非常多委員關心的事情我們在通山對象是中央各機關及其所屬地方補助款一毛都沒有刪地方補助款按照你們行政院自己發函給立法院的這是法定義務支出"},{"start":294.71,"end":319.304,"text":"卓文泰是什么时候决定他要去删地方补助款的这个你知不知道他什么时候决定的这个是主计总署他们想了各种各种的方法以后所以是主计总署的主计长建议的是吗什么时候提出这个建议主计总署送上来的没有错什么时候送上来的我具体的讲啦今天这么多委员"},{"start":320.865,"end":338.545,"text":"提出質詢卓榮泰違法濫權之處已經非常清楚了接下來要進行責任追究的部分那既然是要進行責任追究的部分誰做這個決策誰要負責嘛主席總署什麼時候提這個主意給行政院的"},{"start":340.041,"end":350.486,"text":"這個你也不知道嗎那我要回去查一下你要回去查一下書面回覆可以嗎可以好 第一個主席總署什麼時候上文給行政院"},{"start":351.755,"end":379.969,"text":"建議這樣子做請行政院書面回覆而且連主計總署上的文一併提供可以嗎我來瞭解一下可以提供嗎要問一下主計總署我再瞭解一下這應該不是什麼國家機密吧第二個主計總署上來了以後左榮泰什麼時候決定要對地方的一般補助款這個法定義務支出動手的什麼時候做的決定"},{"start":383.717,"end":406.456,"text":"我剛剛提到這個我沒有了解 我要回去了解OK 沒關係啦 今天行政院秘書長來我問了幾個都是行政院執掌相關的事項啦那顯然連秘書長對於行政院院長做了很多決策相關的時間點也沒有辦法充分的了解 這沒關係會後提供就好了"},{"start":407.216,"end":432.538,"text":"最後一個問題本院如果通過決議要求你們更正這個違法的狀況把該給地方政府的一般補助款補足行政院會不會遵守立法院的決議還是行政院打算我就是要硬幹到底你立法院做什麼決議我行政院也沒有要鳥你們如果立法院做這個決議行政院會不會遵守"},{"start":434.669,"end":456.585,"text":"我們現在的做法就是遵照立法院總預算的三讀的決議在辦理錯你現在的做法完全不是按照立法院總預算三讀的決議來辦理你去對一下啦113年中央政府總預算案通過的通案的決議跟114年通案的決議你就會清楚看得出來嘛"},{"start":458.026,"end":470.803,"text":"113年通案的決議還有刪給地方政府的補助114年的決議一個字都沒提到而且明確的就講中央各機關及其所屬行政院"},{"start":471.997,"end":490.29,"text":"行政院要繼續凹那個是行政院的事情我現在只問一個簡單的問題本院如果做出了決議要求你們把違法苛扣還給地方政府的一般補助款補足行政院會不會遵守還是你也不知道要回去請示著龍派我沒有辦法表示說這個還沒有發生的事情還沒有辦法表示我只講一個基本的原則"},{"start":500.063,"end":503.245,"text":"如果台灣還是憲政民主的國家如果台灣還是憲政民主的國家當國會做了這樣的決議的時候請行政院請行政院尊重國會的決議改正你們過去的錯誤也拜託秘書長把今天在這邊聽到各個委員質詢強烈的意見帶回去給卓榮泰可以嗎"},{"start":531.487,"end":531.508,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好。我今天早上在隔壁的交通委員會問NCC的代理主委一個問題，他沒辦法回答，他說不是他的權責範圍，因為去年卓榮泰說，你看一下簡報，11月19日他說希望在12月以後通傳會能夠有新的名單出來，去年年底是沒有提出來啦！今年4月說希望月底以前能夠提出來，還是沒有提出來。5月2日說人選已經確定，可能在下週公布名單，今天已經5月幾日了？所以現在行政院新的主委名單什麼時候要送來？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我想我可以跟院長轉達……"],["黃委員國昌：表達。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，就是說立法院有這樣的關心啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以除了他以外，也沒有人可以回答這個問題嘛！是不是？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，因為名單……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！卓榮泰剛好在總質詢的時候答應大家4月底要送來，總質詢結束以後，人不用來立法院，講話不算話，一個行政院院長可以講話不算話到這種程度哦？立法委員也問不到他，NCC代理主委很無奈、秘書長也很無奈、大家都很無奈，整個國家沒有人拿卓榮泰有辦法！所以你今天的立場就是回去轉達給卓榮泰？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，希望今天卓榮泰看是不是責成行政院發一個新聞稿，講話不算話啊！一而再、再而三跳票啊！跳票成這個樣子，也問不到他本人，大家都拿他沒辦法，現在卓榮泰覺得自己是太上皇是不是？愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹！","第二個問題，之前行政院送來立法院審議的NCC主委加委員總共4個人嘛！主委因為NCC組織法的修正已經不合格了，剩下的3個人，行政院有要撤回名單嗎？我問過議事處了，到目前為止沒有撤回，但是我現在有點看不懂，卓榮泰說他要提出一個新的名單，聽起來好像不是只有主委，但舊的名單也還沒有撤回去，所以現在行政院送到本院來，請求本院審議的那一份名單，除了主委已經喪失法定資格以外，對於另外3位，行政院現在的立場是什麼？希不希望立法院處理？希望的話，我就請交通委員會排案了，不希望的話，什麼時候名單要撤回去？還是你也不知道？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，實際狀況我是不知道，但是據我瞭解，應該會更替。"],["黃委員國昌：如果要更替的話，行政院負責任一點好不好？先把這份名單撤回去嘛！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好，我會轉達。"],["黃委員國昌：該撤不撤，放在立法院裡面，如果連行政院秘書長都搞不清楚狀況的話，那全中華民國沒有幾個人搞得清楚狀況，只有一個人搞得清楚狀況，就是一而再、再而三跳票的卓榮泰。","今天大家關心的另外一件事情，對了，我再插一句話，行政院如果要撤回，動作要快，意思表示要清楚，否則的話，我要請交通委員會開始排案了，直接公聽會排下去，3位沒有撤回名單的請來立法院，這3位有沒有向行政院院長表達辭意？還是你也不知道？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：這個我不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不知道。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，下一件事情就看你知不知道了，今天非常多委員關心的事情，我們在通刪，對象是中央各機關及其所屬，地方補助款一毛都沒有刪，地方補助款按照你們行政院自己發函給立法院的，這是法定義務支出耶！卓榮泰是什麼時候決定他要去刪地方補助款的？這個你知不知道？他什麼時候決定的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有，這個是主計總處他們想了各種各種的方法以後……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是主計總處主計長建議的，是嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候提出這個建議？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：主計總處送上來的，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候送上來的？我具體地講啦！今天這麼多委員提出質詢，卓榮泰違法濫權之處已經非常清楚了，接下來要進行責任追究的部分，既然是要進行責任追究的部分，誰作這個決策誰要負責嘛！主計總處什麼時候提這個主意給行政院的？這個你也不知道嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我要回去查一下。"],["黃委員國昌：你要回去查一下，書面回復可以嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第一個，主計總處什麼時候上文給行政院建議這樣子做，請行政院書面回復，而且連主計總處上的文一併提供，可以嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好，我來瞭解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：可以提供嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：要問一下主計總處，我再瞭解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：這應該不是什麼國家機密吧？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，主計總處上文了以後，卓榮泰什麼時候決定要對地方的一般補助款，這個法定義務支出動手的？什麼時候作的決定？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我剛剛提到了，這個我沒有瞭解，我要回去瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，沒關係啦！今天行政院秘書長來，我問了幾個都是行政院執掌相關的事項，顯然連秘書長對於行政院院長作的很多決策，相關的時間點也沒有辦法充分地瞭解，這沒有關係，會後提供就好了。","最後一個問題，本院如果通過決議，要求你們更正這個違法的狀況，把該給地方政府的一般補助款補足，行政院會不會遵守立法院的決議？還是行政院打算就是要硬幹到底，立法院作什麼決議，行政院也沒有要鳥你們？如果立法院作了這個決議，行政院會不會遵守？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們現在的作法就是遵照立法院總預算三讀的決議在辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：錯！你現在的作法完全不是按照立法院總預算三讀的決議來辦理，你去對一下113年中央政府總預算案通案的決議跟114年通案的決議，你就會清楚看得出來嘛！113年通案的決議還有刪給地方政府的補助，114年的決議一個字都沒提到，而且明確地就講中央各機關及其所屬，行政院要繼續拗，那個是行政院的事情。我現在只問一個簡單的問題，本院如果作出了決議，要求你們把違法剋扣還給地方政府的一般補助款補足，行政院會不會遵守？還是你也不知道，要回去請示卓榮泰？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我沒有辦法表示，這是還沒有發生的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：還沒有辦法表示哦？我只講一個基本的原則，如果臺灣還是憲政民主的國家，當國會作了這樣的決議的時候，請行政院尊重國會的決議，改正你們過去的錯誤，也拜託秘書長把今天在這邊聽到各個委員質詢的強烈意見帶回去給卓榮泰，可以嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好，可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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辛苦了謝謝這個這一次114年度的預算的通案三檢當初的提案在這裡民眾黨所提的提案通案三檢從這個每一個列舉的"},{"start":31.776,"end":59.537,"text":"這個項目來看通案刪減的其實都是什麼都是一幫維持費這些不影響人民錢益的部分是要讓所有的中央機關要能夠不要亂用人民的納稅錢最主要的用意在這裡而民主黨你很清楚你最清楚你過去也在國會待過"},{"start":61.747,"end":90.37,"text":"這次為什麼會產生這種問題就是因為立法院韓國瑜院長主持朝野這個協商要針對整個總議宣案要如何審查你本來可以在韓院長主持的協商的時候可以做說明的你本來有機會說明是誰沒說了這個說明就是柯建民總召"},{"start":91.195,"end":110.311,"text":"在那個場合不斷不斷地說大罷免就造成了你沒有機會在那個場合說明所以也就這樣這個原因最主要在這裡好我們看當初立法院通案刪減的決議"},{"start":112.051,"end":139.25,"text":"其中因刪減另已補足的科目是指一般維持費不包括法律義務支出也不包括獎補助費也不包括義備金而且因刪減另已補足這四個字是針對中央機關是針對中央機關所要資用的經費你怎麼可以去刪減地方政府的經費"},{"start":140.61,"end":161.886,"text":"所以這個部分是一個非常嚴重的一個錯誤然後我們看這個行政院114年5月16號函給各地方政府修正114年度中央對地方政府一般性補助款結果一砍百分之二十幾總共砍了663億我們看"},{"start":167.915,"end":193.506,"text":"中央對地方政府的一般性補助款他的法源依據就這個辦法然後法源是財政收支方法第三十條第二項以及地方制度法第69條第三項這是法律所明定這裡面包含警政消防人員尤其是第二條第二條的第三項的第三目"},{"start":194.81,"end":217.144,"text":"就是法例民定地方政府要配合的部分法例民定是國民年金法農民健康保險條例老年農民福利暫行條例中低收入戶老人生活津貼發起辦法這個是法例民定地方政府也要去資用的經費要發要資用然後透過怎麼來源經費來源從哪裡來就是從"},{"start":225.41,"end":253.571,"text":"中央對地方政府的一般性補助款這是這樣來的這是法律所明定的這裡面寫的很清楚第三條第一項一般性補助款補助事項社交研這個教育社會福利等等就是剛才的這些條文啊就是這些法律所明定的所以他是法律義務支出啊這法律義務支出怎麼可以刪減"},{"start":254.994,"end":283.772,"text":"你怎麼可以去刪減你應該去刪減你的一般維持費是中央所要支用的這些經費好我們看行政院主計總署在去年8月行政院主計總署去年8月送到立法院的114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法例義務支出明細表"},{"start":285.981,"end":313.015,"text":"這不是我們立法院自己做的是行政院送來的依法律義務支出的明細表裡面就包含了一般性補助款兩千五百零一一千多寫得非常清楚所以從剛才的法規法例來看包括自己行政院自己也認為這是法律義務支出這是符合的應該的"},{"start":314.926,"end":344.368,"text":"我們再看民主進步黨在1月21號的臉書2501億一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不能變動的中央法定支出連民進黨的中央黨部都認為這個當然是你們提供給他們的當天啊然後呢這裡面還寫到中央政府可用的預算還有一兆元啊"},{"start":346.974,"end":374.523,"text":"扣除那些刪減了之後扣除統商的刪減了之後還有可用的一兆元一兆元你不用不是不刪結果你去刪對地方政府的一般性補助款而且涉及到教育社福的經費怎麼那麼狠啊好好回去啊秘書長這不是你做的決定回去跟卓榮泰院長做說明好接下來"},{"start":377.199,"end":398.148,"text":"基本設施維持費你們也把它凍結3億2千萬3億2千萬的理由是什麼也是這個636億636億地方一般性補助款你扣了刪了還要再刪原住民的基本設施維持費這是對原鄉的這些基本財政的這個一個協助啊"},{"start":405.816,"end":433.99,"text":"那不是超過636億嗎對不對變成600超過啊超過636億啊你們的理由也是這個所以這個部分民主黨趕快趕快要求行政院主席總署基本設施維持會趕快撥款另外建法補償你剛講的是什麼這是第一個行政院院長"},{"start":435.387,"end":464.866,"text":"同意要辦追加預算 禁法補償不足的23億9千多萬立法院也做了決議要辦追加預算延命會依立法院的提案在今年的3月已經把這個追加預算已經送到立法院所以行政院趕快秘書長 這個你可以做決定了"},{"start":466.056,"end":481.46,"text":"趕快把進法補償23億9千多萬這個跟什麼 跟總預算無關啦 跟你事先無關啦這追加預算跟總預算無關啦不要再用這個理由啊可以嗎 秘書長從3萬塊變成6萬塊 這個我們一定會補足他"},{"start":491.426,"end":518.932,"text":"一定會讓原民有這樣的需要的人一定領得到這是法律義務民主黨如果我們沒有研會根本來不及啊你要辦追加預算要到11月才那個審議啊9月10月都是總質詢啊所以你趕快送來送來還來得及在7月底以前呢完成追加預算好不好"},{"start":519.805,"end":520.086,"text":"我來表達謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時15分）主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：秘書長好，辛苦了。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這次114年度的預算通案刪減，當初的提案在這裡，民眾黨所提的提案，要求通案刪減。從每一個列舉的項目來看，通案刪減的其實都是一般維持費，這些不影響人民權益的部分，是要讓所有的中央機關不要亂用人民的納稅錢，最主要的用意在這裡。","而秘書長你很清楚、你最清楚，你過去也在國發會待過，這次為什麼會產生這種問題？就是因為立法院韓國瑜院長主持朝野協商，要針對整個總預算案如何審查，你本來在韓院長主持協商的時候可以做說明的、你本來有機會說明，是誰沒收了這個說明？就是柯建銘總召在那個場合不斷地說大罷免、大罷免，就造成了你沒有機會在那個場合說明，所以也就這樣，這個原因最主要在這裡。","我們來看當初立法院通案刪減的決議，其中應刪減「另予補足」的科目是指一般維持費，不包括法律義務支出、也不包括獎補助費、也不包括預備金，而且應刪減「另予補足」這4個字是針對中央機關所要支用的經費，你怎麼可以去刪減地方政府的經費？所以這個部分是一個非常嚴重的錯誤。","我們看行政院114年5月16日函給各地方政府，修正114年度中央對地方政府一般性補助款，結果一砍就是百分之二十幾，總共砍了663億。我們看中央對地方政府一般性補助款的法源，依據就是「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法」，法源是財政收支劃分法第三十條第二項及地方制度法第六十九條第三項，這是法律所明定的，這裡面包含警政、消防人員。尤其補助辦法第二條第三項第三目就是法律明定地方政府要配合的部分，法律明定了國民年金法、農民健康保險條例、老年農民福利津貼暫行條例、中低收入老人生活津貼發給辦法，這個是法律明定地方政府也要去支用的經費，然後經費來源從哪裡來？就是從中央對地方政府的一般性補助款，這是這樣來的，這是法律所明定的。這個辦法裡面寫得很清楚，第三條第一項規定，一般性補助款補助事項涉及到教育、社會福利等等，就是剛才的這些條文、就是這些法律所明定的，所以它是法律義務支出，怎麼可以刪減？你怎麼可以去刪減？你應該去刪減一般維持費，是中央所要支用的這些經費。","我們來看行政院主計總處在去年8月送到立法院的「114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表」，這不是我們立法院自己做的，是行政院送來的哦！依法律義務支出的明細表裡面，就包含了一般性補助款二千五百零一億一千多萬，寫得非常清楚，所以從剛才的法規、法律來看，包括行政院自己也認為這是法律義務支出，這是符合的、應該的。","我們再來看民主進步黨在1月21日的臉書：2,501億一般性補助款，都是行政和立法部門不能變動的中央法定支出。連民進黨的中央黨部都這樣認為，這個當然是你們提供給他們的，當天啊！然後這裡面還特別寫到，中央政府可用的預算還有1兆元啊！扣除統刪的刪減之後，還有可用預算1兆元，1兆元你不刪，結果你去刪對地方政府的一般性補助款，而且是涉及到教育、社福的經費，怎麼那麼狠啊！秘書長，這不是你作的決定，回去跟卓榮泰院長做說明。","接下來，基本設施維持費你們也把它凍結3億2,000萬，凍結3億2,000萬的理由是什麼？也是這個636億，地方一般性補助款你扣了、刪了，還要再刪原住民的基本設施維持費，這是對原鄉這些基本財政的協助，那不是超過636億嗎？對不對？超過啦！超過636億，你們的理由也是這個啊！所以這個部分，秘書長，趕快要求行政院主計總處，基本設施維持費趕快撥款。","另外，禁伐補償，你剛剛講的是什麼？第一個，行政院院長同意要辦追加預算支應禁伐補償不足的二十三億九千多萬，立法院也作了決議要辦追加預算，原民會依立法院的提案，在今年3月已經把追加預算送到行政院，所以請行政院趕快，秘書長，這個你可以作決定，趕快把禁伐補償二十三億九千多萬的追加預算送來，這個跟總預算無關啊！跟你釋憲無關啊！追加預算跟總預算無關啊！不要再用這個理由，秘書長，可以嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，從3萬塊變成6萬塊，這個我們一定會補足、一定會，讓有需要的原民一定領得到。"],["鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 本席有請龔秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":19.938,"end":39.991,"text":"前面有兩位委員有提到去年內政委員會的會議本席想要在這裡特別說明秘書長你覺得會議狀態不明或怎麼樣我想那一天是誰杯葛執政黨的委員杯葛整個的議事程序"},{"start":40.791,"end":59.195,"text":"然後搞不清楚的也是執政黨的行政院秘書長所以我們在這裡很遺憾執政黨又要背個會議然後又不來備詢但是今天本席的質詢內容沒有這個我只是在一開始我先針對這個來講首先今天我們想跟秘書長來就教"},{"start":66.218,"end":87.351,"text":"現在當然大家都對於我們這個一般性補助款2501億呢對各直轄市政府或縣市政府的這個補助款首先本席請教你這2501億在去年審查114年總預算的時候它有被立法院刪減嗎有沒有任何一個立委提議刪減這個 有沒有"},{"start":95.934,"end":113.508,"text":"並沒有沒有 對原因是什麼本席跟大家說因為我們行政院應該這應該是主計總署提出來的114年度中央政府總預算編列一法律義務支出明細表"},{"start":114.249,"end":133.958,"text":"所以呢 各位 這個2,501億 對地方政府的一般性補助款他是不能刪減的 立法院都不能刪減 行政院也不能任意刪減那什麼情況下可以刪減 這個有辦法 有規定"},{"start":137.113,"end":153.203,"text":"那個秘書長我想您應該知道中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款金額不得少於修正實施前一年度的預算編列數那得三減補助款的情形是採正面表列"},{"start":153.763,"end":178.911,"text":"也就是第四條違反限制規定第五條執行效能執行情形開源節流的績效以及第六條拒絕提供補助經費之用還有第十二條有依法得徵收之裁員而不徵收等都是具體明確的地方政府有違施的情形"},{"start":180.615,"end":202.655,"text":"行政院才可以來不予補助或是刪減補助款所以這個目前我們看到立法院依法行政立法院不能刪減的我們沒有一個委員刪減但是行政院卻把應該要通案刪減的636億"},{"start":206.195,"end":228.91,"text":"只用在全部就應該要在各部會分攤這636億通案刪減是要在行政院各部會去分攤的但是行政院的決定就是只針對地方政府報復民眾懲罰民眾本席在這邊要請教秘書長這個決策是誰決定的誰決定的"},{"start":237.595,"end":265.268,"text":"奧委員中央政府對於地方政府的支持是一定的否則我們不會不用編了兩千五百億請不要浪費我時間我時間已經沒了請問這個把這個法定的支出不得刪減除了它有違規的情況但是現在行政院卻把這六百三十六億要在各部會分攤的全部用在這"},{"start":266.428,"end":294.863,"text":"只分攤在地方政府的這個一般性補助款本席想請教這到底是誰的決策其他的中央政府已經被刪減了一千四百多億而且是在大院的這個我想請教我請教您的就是是誰決定把這六百三十六億就用在這個兩千五百零一億的一般性補助款是誰決定是卓榮泰院長還是賴清德總統"},{"start":296.762,"end":313.507,"text":"是誰決定的他會提出可能的一些救濟的方法所以是主計總署之前對立法院在去年告訴我們這個是法定義務之初絕對不能刪減所以你說是主計總署"},{"start":318.929,"end":324.694,"text":"主計長 主計長建議的嗎好 沒關係我現在確定是誰決定的主計總署也是提議吧主計總署跟我們講不能刪結果跟行政院來提議要刪減"},{"start":338.243,"end":346.012,"text":"哇我們的政府可以這樣子違法亂紀違規沒有如果沒有那個636億的這個空白刪除的話就不會發生這樣的情況636億這一塊他本來過去也都有通案刪減"},{"start":355.262,"end":372.349,"text":"就是要行政院來立法院大家一起協調或是行政院你應該各部會刪減你不做你全部加諸在民眾然後呢影響我們人民的通案刪減是939億我們行政院也沒有發表所以現在是"},{"start":379.852,"end":404.72,"text":"主計總署跟行政院提案 那誰最後決策嘛誰最後拍板定案的嘛 卓院長嗎不敢講 卓院長所以主計總署 這個主計長很有問題對立法院不能刪的 行政院來刪而且違反自己訂出來的規定那所以現在這個一般性補助款"},{"start":408.002,"end":433.115,"text":"2501億呢就要轉嫁到地方影響了我們學童的交通老人家的生活我們托育的照顧我們長照的照顧公共的醫療消防建設文化活動等等等所以全部都加租到地方那本席最後要再詢問我們秘書長今年通過的總預算是不是歷史新高"},{"start":435.988,"end":460.299,"text":"歷史由始以來最高的嘛對結果通過的預算歷史新高再告訴我們至愛難行ok至愛難行的部分你當初的因為這個各部會他的這個溝通我們沒辦法管到那麼細但是我們希望未來很多東西你要加強溝通很多沒有溝通啊好那"},{"start":463.154,"end":465.477,"text":"接著最後本席要說我們這個"},{"start":469.98,"end":494.921,"text":"整個的通案刪減636億如果在中央各部會來分攤的話大概佔我們中央政府總預算2%左右就2%那就像一個大水庫你大水庫理論你這樣子分攤可是結果我們的行政院竟然就是轉嫁到地方轉嫁到地方結果造成地方20幾%的一個衝擊"},{"start":497.662,"end":519.858,"text":"所以我們不希望我們的政府治理 中央執政不要情緒失控 人有情緒失控所以會有錯誤的言行但是不要因為這個我們合理的刪減希望不要浮邊爛邊嘛還有很多績效不好的我們稍微遵截經費 結果不高興 結果"},{"start":522.641,"end":534.035,"text":"這個中央政府整個情緒失控拿民眾開刀拿民眾當肉票這種報復行為不行最後最後本席請教這個有沒有可能收回陳敏的可能"},{"start":536.528,"end":552.995,"text":"因為現在按照刪讀的決議這個636億是一定要刪我們提出的互議也沒有通過636億你們各部會去分攤嘛各部會有很多的經費去分攤各部會已經被刪除掉了1400多億了你參考一下去年的預算"},{"start":562.335,"end":582.213,"text":"對不對今天你比去年還多出兩千億所以你參考一下去年的預算如果其他的部分可以刪減的部分在大院在審議的過程幾千個提案就會被刪掉所以反正現在整個社會要了解這個是行政院一意孤行的結果"},{"start":583.053,"end":586.579,"text":"一意孤行然後專門拿民眾開刀拿民眾當肉票這一塊其實我想這個社會自由公論好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":631,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時5分）謝謝主席，本席有請龔秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：秘書長好。因為前面有兩位委員提到去年內政委員會的會議，本席想要在這裡特別說明，秘書長你覺得會議狀態不明或怎麼樣，試問那一天是誰杯葛？其實是執政黨委員杯葛整個的議事程序，搞不清楚的也是執政黨的行政院秘書長，我們很遺憾執政黨又要杯葛會議，然後又不來備詢，但是今天本席的質詢內容沒有這個，我只是在一開始先針對這部分說明一下。","今天想跟秘書長就教針對各直轄市政府或縣市政府的一般性補助款2,501億，首先本席請教這2,501億在去年審查114年度總預算的時候有被立法院刪減嗎？有沒有任何一個立委提議刪減？有沒有？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：並沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，原因是什麼？本席跟大家說，因為行政院主計總處提出114年度中央政府總預算編列(一)法律義務支出明細表，所以這2,501億對地方政府的一般性補助款是不能刪減的，立法院都不能刪減，行政院也不能任意刪減。什麼情況下可以刪減？這個有辦法、有規定，秘書長我想你應該知道，中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款金額不得少於修正實施前一年度的預算編列數，得刪減補助款的情形是採正面表列，也就是第四條違反限制規定與第五條執行效能、執行情形、開源節流的績效，以及第六條拒絕提供補助經費之用，還有第十二條有依法得徵收之財源而不徵收等，這些都是地方政府有具體明確違失的情形，行政院才可以不予補助或是刪減補助款。目前我們看到立法院依法行政，立法院不能刪減的我們沒有一個委員刪減，但是行政院卻把應該要通案刪減的636億，也就是這636億通案刪減應該是要在行政院各部會去通刪分攤的，但是行政院的決定卻只針對地方政府，報復民眾、懲罰民眾。本席在這邊要請教秘書長，這個決策是誰決定的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，中央政府對於地方政府的支持是一定的，否則我們就不用編列2,500億……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請不要浪費我的時間，我的時間已經沒了。法定支出不得刪減，除了它有違規的情況，但是現在行政院卻把這636億要在各部會分攤的，全部只分攤在地方政府的一般性補助款，本席想請教，這到底是誰的決策？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：其他中央政府的部分已經被刪減了一千四百多億，而且是在大院不斷地……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我想請教您的就是，是誰決定把這636億就用在2,501億的一般性補助款？是誰決定的？是卓榮泰院長還是賴清德總統？是誰決定的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：主計總處會提出一些可能的救濟方法，也會跟行政院來做討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是主計總處。但是主計總處之前在去年告訴我們立法院，這個是法定義務支出，絕對不能刪減，結果……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：剛剛主計總處的專門委員已經說了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你說是主計總處主計長建議的嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：他是主計總處專門委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係。我現在先確定，是誰決定的？主計總處也是提議吧。主計總處跟我們講不能刪，結果跟行政院來提議要刪減，哇！我們的政府可以這樣子違法亂紀、違規？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有，如果沒有那個六百……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有636億的空白刪除的話，就不會發生這樣的情況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：636億這一塊本來過去也都有通案刪減，就是要行政院來立法院大家一起協調或是行政院應該各部會刪減，結果你不做，你全部加諸在民眾，然後影響我們人民的民生……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：通案刪減939億，我們行政院也沒有發表……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，秘書長，本席沒有請你回答。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在是主計總處跟行政院提案，那誰最後決策？誰最後拍板定案的嘛？卓院長嗎？不敢講？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是院長沒錯，因為他……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，是卓院長。所以主計總處主計長很有問題，對立法院不能刪的，行政院來刪，而且違反自己訂出來的規定。所以現在這個一般性補助款2,501億就要轉嫁到地方，影響了學童的交通、老人家的生活、托育的照顧、長照的照顧、公共醫療、消防建設、文化活動等等，全部都加諸到地方。","本席最後要再詢問秘書長，今年通過的總預算是不是歷史新高？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，有史以來最高的嘛。結果通過的預算歷史新高，你們卻告訴我們窒礙難行。OK，窒礙難行的部分，當初各部會的溝通我們沒辦法管到那麼細，但是我們希望未來你們很多東西要加強溝通，你們很多沒有溝通。","最後本席要說，整個通案刪減636億如果在中央各部會來分攤的話，大概占中央政府總預算2%左右，就像大水庫理論這樣子分攤，結果我們的行政院竟然轉嫁到地方，造成地方百分之二十幾的衝擊，所以我們希望我們的政府治理、中央執政不要情緒失控。人有情緒失控，所以會有錯誤的言行，但是我們合理地刪減，希望不要浮編、濫編，還有很多績效不好的，我們希望稍微撙節經費，結果中央政府不高興，整個情緒失控，拿民眾開刀、拿民眾當肉票，這種報復行為不行！最後本席請教，這個有沒有收回成命的可能？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，現在按照三讀的決議，這個636億是一定要刪，我們提出了覆議也沒有通過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，636億是你們各部會去分攤嘛，各部會有很多的經費去分攤……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：各部會已經被刪除掉了一千四百多億了，而且很多的部會都被刪到骨頭了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你參考一下去年的預算，對不對？今天你比去年還多出2,000億，所以你參考一下去年的預算，好不好？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：其他的部會可以刪減的部分，在大院審議的過程，透過幾千個提案，就會被刪掉……"],["徐委員欣瑩：反正現在整個社會要瞭解，這個是行政院一意孤行的結果……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們是沒有辦法在窒礙難行的情況之下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後專門拿民眾開刀、拿民眾當肉票，這一塊其實我想社會自有公論，謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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共秘書長有請好 請秘書長秘書長早安先跟你討論一下預算的事情因為地方制度法69條1項怎麼寫的我可能要查一下法條的條文趕快 趕快 活力支援一下"},{"start":35.257,"end":54.666,"text":"地制法第六條的規定是各上級政府為謀地方均衡發展對於財力較差的地方政府應佐予補助所以這就是為什麼大家都會講所謂的一般性補助款是屬於法定義務支出的原因因為法定義務支出你怎麼去算就是有明確的法源講你應該要做什麼對不對"},{"start":56.786,"end":66.773,"text":"那你現在因為立法院的決議你要統三對不對然後你就說現在我們要拿一般性補助款來開檔這個是你們花了多長時間整理出來的最佳結果"},{"start":68.041,"end":88.673,"text":"授權統三就是你們要自己自行尊潔的概念嘛以往不管是國會的結構長什麼樣子誰執政誰在野都一樣所謂的授權統三不管金額大小其實就是以尊潔總開支作為核心戰略目標但是不希望傷筋動骨所以讓行政機關有一個調整的空間對不對這是我認知統三的意義嘛"},{"start":89.714,"end":108.329,"text":"這次金額很大所以我今天要問你嘛金額很大是一個客觀的問題這我們不反對但問題是你金額很大的時候你也有很多種方式可以來處理嘛請問你們整個行政院院本部針對這個桶山這個燙手山芋你們提出了幾種方案你們跟大家說明一下"},{"start":109.014,"end":128.749,"text":"八號委員我們當初第一個時間就提出說事實上他是真的是自愛難行所以為什麼提出復議我們就希望說立法院可以重新再思考這樣的問題如果在復議這個部分可以做處理的話我今天不是在問你提出了什麼救濟手段你一定想最差嘛就是說如果復議被立法院否決你還是要面對這件事"},{"start":129.87,"end":144.382,"text":"但六百多億的那種三法你可以把所有各式各樣的統統統一遵截3%這是不是一種方法你可以盤點政府的各項計畫有哪些大型的專案晚兩年實施這兩年預算就遵截掉你是不是就可以遵截掉一大筆大筆的方法"},{"start":145.343,"end":169.613,"text":"你是不是也可以思考也許部分的計劃型補助款重新思考分配的額度我的意思是講統三這件事情其實你從行政機關的角度你本來就有很多的調度空間你說今天所有東西齊頭式是不是只要減3%不到大家結一說實是不是也是一種方法那我就問嘛你行政院到底想出了幾種方法然後最後為什麼決定是砍一般型補助款請你給大家一個清楚的說明"},{"start":170.583,"end":193.489,"text":"報告委員我想因為我們中央總預算送到立法院後來的提案是好幾千個案子那每一個案子都是有針對性的這個來做刪或動那這麼幾千個案子處理下情況之下就是要刪掉三百多億對啊我今天沒有在問你這個三百多億我問你六百多億嘛因為統算是六百多億嘛"},{"start":196.574,"end":205.43,"text":"經過這麼嚴格的審查完以後表示說其他的部分都有必要而且應該要去做包括國防什麼我們沒有辦法去處理這樣的事情"},{"start":208.118,"end":236.869,"text":"所以說老實話以我們來講也是非常的無奈你的意思是說各方面都是其他一毛都不能尊潔你行政院想做的是一毛都不能尊潔但地方都可以尊潔你意思是這樣嗎如果這個金額事實上是我們可以調控的話那當然沒有問題但是這個金額實在是太大了六百多億所以我才問嘛你們在內部討論的時候有幾種方案嘛你有沒有討論過幾種方案還是根本從頭到尾就沒有方案你第一時間就直接想到一般性補助管你把他幹掉就算了我們今天想釐清的是這件事"},{"start":237.588,"end":261.972,"text":"當然是就是說最後我們還是要依照這個三讀的決議嘛你不要跟我跳針啊你到底有沒有別的方案嘛你有沒有討論過別的方案主席總署會說原理我不曉得他們有沒有想了很多案子但是跟行政院來討論的覺得這個還是不是最好的方法但是總是一個方法"},{"start":265.142,"end":276.328,"text":"報告委員就是說依照立法院審議刪減的數字就是總共要刪減2075億那這部分來講的話中央各機關其實已經大幅刪減了1439億那剩下636億這部分我們要再去立法院請我們自行刪減那我們在考慮的過程當中就考慮到說這裡面有"},{"start":288.675,"end":305.115,"text":"一些公共建設科技發展還有法律支出這些東西可能都必須要國防這些東西都必須要我講的是人事費那些東西啦那都必須要比較沒有再三減的空間所以就剩下機關專項的計畫跟基本運作的經費"},{"start":307.938,"end":332.556,"text":"那這一部分如果在扣掉國防以外其實剛剛提過各機關要刪那個1439億裡面在這裡面他們其實已經被大幅刪減了18.5億如果這636億再分攤到這個科目來講各機關的基本運作經費可能就必須要大幅刪減到29%左右所以說考量到這一些因素以外所以說因為一般性補助款也是我們總預算的一環"},{"start":333.897,"end":351.718,"text":"那補助款的概念就是中央在財政上有多少的餘裕然後我們看主要補助地方多少所以當初考量的部分就是說這一部分是只剩下這一部分有調印的一個空間所以說就去調整這個刪減這個一般性補助款以上說明我跟你講你現在做這樣子的一個政治決定對不對"},{"start":352.847,"end":375.989,"text":"破壞的基本上是中央政府跟地方政府之間的互信關係嘛那是飲鴆止渴的一個概念嘛如果今天你真的講說很困難所以中央的部分做出了若干的尊潔實在暈不出來地方尊潔但受傷程度小一點你也經過了比較完整的權衡比如說相對財政弱勢的縣市政府我的補助三的比例比較少而不是一刀齊頭式的砍那今天正義不會這麼大"},{"start":377.29,"end":404.075,"text":"但今天你整個呈現出來端出來的菜就是非常粗糙嘛我今天就挑一個項目為了湊足六百多億我就一刀切也不管各個地方的發展需要也不管縣市政府的一個狀況跟努力你就這樣一刀切這真的是一個好的通商的模式嗎這當然人民自有公平啦大家後面這個題目還有的草大家就看著辦吧另外待會我們要討論預算解凍案你這個公民署長你上次我們凍結最大的理由就是因為你上次不來備詢"},{"start":404.975,"end":425.245,"text":"那剛剛你回答徐宇甄委員的時候你講說你都有說明嘛在這個地方我把他調出來看但你這個說明裡面你沒有講實話啊因為那個說明裡面第一個你有承認你明明就知道兩點過後延長開會時間嘛所以他會議恢復正常進行你自己也有回到現場對不對但你回到現場的時候因為趙委員不在你就跑了"},{"start":426.107,"end":444.204,"text":"然後你說大家都走了大家沒有走啊你好幾個處長當初還坐在下面本席那時候還一個一個點名稱讚表示他們很尊重立法院可是後來為什麼他們也走了這一段你要不要交代一下當初的確是會議的狀態其實不是那麼明確那沒有明確對啊"},{"start":447.095,"end":472.092,"text":"會議狀態明不明確應該不是由你們來認定吧應該是立法院的委員會做決議來確定的對不對延長開會動議的時間延長開會時間動議通過他就延長開會時間到討論事項處理完畢為止所以這個會議是非常清楚的議事人員都可以作證不是由你們來認定的吧因為兩點的時候螢幕上打出來是說會議上會開始後來改過來因為當初在確認延長開會動議有沒有通過嘛結論是有通過啊"},{"start":474.514,"end":491.152,"text":"真的到後來要請你回來的時候已經是傍晚了你這三四個小時都可以因為兩點那個三分鐘沒有及時更新你就可以擺爛這樣不太對吧更重要你還沒回答我問題啊就是說為什麼那些你下面本來處長都回來都準備要備詢準備要詢答了結果現在他們突然走了呢是你的指示嗎"},{"start":491.926,"end":506.686,"text":"沒有我沒有指示他們那他們為什麼突然離開還是他們也跟著你一樣看你不在大家就不在因為會議的狀況不明我就先離開了那後面確實有很多人講因為你收到奇怪的LINE有人傳訊息叫你可以回家你就回家了是吧沒有啦沒有"},{"start":506.946,"end":521.556,"text":"沒有啦 那你為什麼不來備詢呢你如果要來備詢 搞不好五一根都不會凍結嘛可是你今天回答的時候報告也寫得不清楚 對不對你也沒有好好的針對這個問題來進行回答那怎麼解凍呢 對不對你自己思考一下 我們待會還有時間討論好不好好 謝謝 辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":590,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時56分）謝謝主席。有請龔秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：秘書長早安。先跟你討論一下預算的事情，請問地方制度法第六十九條第一項是怎麼寫的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我可能要查一下法條的條文。"],["牛委員煦庭：趕快火力支援一下。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：地制法第六十九條的規定是各上級政府為謀地方均衡發展，對於財力較差的地方政府應酌予補助。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛，這就是為什麼大家都會講所謂的一般性補助款是屬於法定義務支出的原因，因為法定義務支出你怎麼去算就是有明確的法源講你應該要做什麼，對不對？現在因為立法院的決議你要統刪，然後你就說現在要拿一般性補助款來開刀，這個是你們花了多長時間整理出來的最佳結果？授權統刪就是你們要自行撙節的概念，以往不管國會的結構長什麼樣子，誰執政、誰在野都一樣，所謂的授權統刪，不管金額大小，其實就是以撙節總開支作為核心戰略目標，但是不希望傷筋動骨，所以讓行政機關有一個調整的空間，對不對？這是我認知統刪的意義，但是這一次……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：這個金額實在太大了，沒有辦法這樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一次金額很大，所以我今天要問你，金額很大是一個客觀的問題，這我們不反對，但問題是在金額很大的時候，你也有很多種方式可以處理，請問整個行政院院本部針對統刪這個燙手山芋，你們提出了幾種方案？你能不能跟大家說明一下？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們當初第一時間就提出事實上它真的是窒礙難行，所以為什麼提出覆議，我們就是希望立法院可以重新再思考這樣的問題，如果在覆議這個部分可以做處理的話……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天不是在問你提出了什麼救濟手段，你一定想最差就是如果覆議被立法院否決，你還是要面對這件事，但六百多億的這種刪法，你可以把所有各式各樣的通通統一撙節3%，這是不是一種方法？你可以盤點政府的各項計畫，有哪些大型的專案晚兩年實施，這兩年預算撙節掉，這是不是可以撙節到一大筆錢的方法？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：你是不是也可以思考也許部分的計畫型補助款重新思考分配的額度？我的意思是針對統刪這件事情，其實從行政機關的角度本來就有很多的調度空間，如果今天所有東西都是齊頭式撙節，是不是只要減不到3%，大家節衣縮食是不是也是一種方法？我就問你行政院到底想出了幾種方法，最後為什麼決定是砍一般型補助款？請你給大家一個清楚的說明。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，因為中央政府總預算送到立法院審議，後來的提案是好幾千個案子，每一個案子都是有針對性地進行刪或凍，在這幾千個案子處理的情況之下就是要刪掉三百多億，那……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！我今天沒有在問你三百多億的問題，我是說那六百多億，因為統刪是六百多億嘛！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我覺得經過這麼嚴格的審查以後，表示其他部分都有必要而且應該要去做，包括國防等等，我們也沒有辦法去處理這樣的事情，說老實話，以我們來講也是非常的無奈。"],["牛委員煦庭：你的意思是說各方面一毛都不能撙節，行政院想做的事情一毛都不能撙節，但地方的都可以撙節，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：如果這個金額是我們可以調控的話，那當然沒有問題，但是這個金額實在太大了，總共六百多億。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我才問你在內部討論的時候有幾種方案、你有沒有討論過幾種方案？還是從頭到尾根本就沒有方案，你第一時間就直接想到一般性補助款把它幹掉就算了？我們今天想釐清的是這件事。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：當然最後我們還是要依照三讀的決議，還是要刪減……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要跳針啊！你到底有沒有別的方案？你有沒有討論過別的方案？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為主計總處說會研擬，我不曉得他們有沒有想了很多案子，但是跟行政院討論覺得這個雖然不是最好的方法，但總是一個方法。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問主計總處有幾個版本？"],["吳專門委員銘修：報告委員，依照立法院審議的數字就是總共要刪減2,075億，中央各機關其實已經大幅刪減了1,439億，剩下636億的部分立法院請我們自行刪減，我們在考慮的過程當中，就有考慮到這裡面有一些公共建設、科技發展、法律義務支出以及國防等等，這些東西可能都必須要……"],["牛委員煦庭：你還敢講法律義務支出！"],["吳專門委員銘修：我講的是人事費那些東西，這都比較沒有再刪減的空間，所以就剩下機關專項的計畫跟基本運作的經費，這一部分如果再扣掉國防的部分，剛剛提過在各機關要刪的1,439億裡面，其實已經被大幅刪減了18.5億，如果這636億再分攤到這個科目，各機關的基本運作經費可能就必須大幅刪減29%左右，考量到這一些因素以外，因為一般性補助款也是總預算的一環，而補助款的概念就是中央在財政上有多少餘裕，然後我們看酌予補助地方多少，當初考量只剩下這一部分有調應的空間，所以就去刪減一般性補助款，以上說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，你現在作這樣子的政治決定，破壞的是中央政府跟地方政府之間的互信關係，這是飲鴆止渴的概念，如果今天你真的講說很困難，中央已經做出了若干的撙節，實在勻不出來，地方撙節但受傷程度小一點，你也經過了比較完整的權衡，比如財政相對弱勢的縣市政府刪減的補助比例比較少，而不是一刀齊頭式的砍，那麼今天爭議不會這麼大，但今天你整個端出來的菜就是非常粗糙，今天就是挑一個項目，為了湊足六百多億就一刀切，也不管各個地方的發展需要、也不管縣市政府的狀況跟努力，你就這樣一刀切，這真的是一個好的通刪模式嗎？當然人民自有公評，後面這個題目還有得吵，大家就看著辦吧！","另外，待會兒我們要討論預算解凍案，龔秘書長，我們凍結最大的理由就是因為你上次不來備詢。剛剛你回答許宇甄委員的時候，你說你都有說明，我把它調出來看，發現你在說明裡面並沒有講實話啊！在那個說明裡面，第一個你有承認你明明就知道2點過後延長開會時間，所以會議恢復正常進行，你自己也有回到現場對不對？但你回到現場的時候，因為召委不在所以你就跑了，然後你說大家都走了，其實大家並沒有走啊！當時好幾個處長都還坐在下面，本席那時候還一個一個點名稱讚，表示他們很尊重立法院，可是後來為什麼他們也走了？這一段你要不要交代一下？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：當初的確是會議的狀態不是那麼明確……"],["牛委員煦庭：哪沒有明確？會議狀態明不明確應該不是由你們來認定吧！應該是由立法院的委員會作決議來確定的對不對？延長開會時間動議通過，那就延長開會時間到討論事項處理完畢為止，所以這個會議是非常清楚的，議事人員都可以作證，不是由你們來認定的吧！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為2點的時候，螢幕上打出來的字是會議尚未開始。"],["牛委員煦庭：後來有改過來，因為當初在確認延長開會動議有沒有通過，結論是有通過啊！真的到後來要請你回來的時候已經是傍晚了，你這三、四個小時都可以因為2點那三分鐘沒有及時更新而擺爛，這樣不太對吧！更重要的，你還沒回答我的問題啊！就是為什麼本來那些處長都回來準備要詢答了，結果後來他們突然走了呢？是你的指示嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有，我沒有指示他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：那他們為什麼突然離開？還是他們也跟你一樣，看你不在，大家就不在？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：就我來講，因為會議的狀況不明，所以我就先離開了。"],["牛委員煦庭：後面確實有很多人講因為你收到了奇怪的LINE，有人傳訊息叫你可以回家了，所以你就回家了，是不是？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有？那你為什麼不來備詢呢？你如果來備詢，搞不好那5億根本就不會凍結嘛！可是你今天回答的時候，報告也寫得不清楚，對不對？你也沒有針對問題好好來回答，怎麼解凍呢？你自己思考一下，我們待會還有時間討論，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時50分）主席、與會同仁。請行政院秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：秘書長好。2024年（去年）12月20日在野黨的財劃法三讀通過，其實財劃法通過後，中央就要提撥3,753億挹注地方，大量增加中央的財政負擔。在審查預算案時，在野黨要求行政院自刪636億，今天行政院除了被迫要刪減各部會經費外，甚至連地方的一般補助也要減少25%，中央實際在我們地方的挹注是大幅縮水，但是以實際上本席調出的資料，我就以114年為例，中央還補助了新北市983億，扣除一般性補助25%的30億，還比去年多了69億，這一點秘書長你要對外說明，並沒有減少啊！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是，六都都增加，即便扣掉25%以後，事實上一般性補助還是比前一年還要增加。"],["吳委員琪銘：對啊，這要對外說明啊！不然大家都會誤解這樣一下來的話，中央對地方的補助款都大幅縮水。我在這邊也要感謝行政院，其實在新北市有一些重大建設，比如在我的選區有萬大線，根據本席所得到的資料，針對萬大線就補助了172億，對三鶯線也補助185億，你看我的選區還有一個司法園區，也補助了一百七十幾億，還有補助金城交流道五十幾億，其實林林總總加起來就超過了，在新北市並沒有壓縮，但是我身為新北市的市民，同時也是新北市的民意代表，當然新北市還是需要很多經費、還是要由中央來挹注，我希望行政院還是秉持對於地方的發展、地方的需要及地方百姓的訴求，也是要站在百姓的角度由中央來挹注。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，就我們原編的預算，本來地方政府就有統籌分配稅款，如果加上一般型補助及計畫型補助的話，事實上這樣的金額總共加起來是超過1兆，也就是說，中央政府對地方政府是完全支持，現在因為那636億是額外增加出來的，不曉得要怎麼去處理，我們當初就是說窒礙難行，提出覆議也沒有被接受，所以我們現在提出了釋憲。因為三讀的決議就是要砍掉636億，在這種情況下，我們就要想辦法去滿足這個三讀的決議，同時也跟地方政府說非常抱歉。針對這樣的情況，個別的地方政府有任何困難，我們都會個別的協助。針對個別的協助，可能有人會覺得為什麼先刪掉以後再補助？其實不一樣，因為我們要符合立法院三讀的決議。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，所以我在這邊也呼籲在野黨，又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草真的不可能，包括行政單位的行政費你都刪除，其實受害的還是民眾，所以我們未來還是要共同來溝通，我希望大家坐下來共同研究，好好處理這件事情，這才是全民的福氣。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為時間的關係，秘書長，我上一次跟你提出重機械的問題，在5月份也有請內政部、交通部來討論，當初我也拜託秘書長處理這件事情並統籌研究，請問現在的情形及進度是怎麼樣？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：它分成短期及中長期的處理方式，短期就是交通部已經就交通設施的認定馬上來處理。另外，我們當然是希望長期來講的話……5月15號剛開完會，就是有關於中長期的結果……"],["吳委員琪銘：請說明一下。"],["陳處長盈蓉：目前因為內政部要修正非都的管制規則需要有一定的程序，要跨部會協調的部分在5月15號已經完成，經過協調，交通部也願意配合，這部分後續就是要確認相關程序發布事宜，所以算是非常順利。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝秘書長，還是要請秘書長出面才能整合各部會。我再次感謝，同時也拜託秘書長及相關單位，時間上把它訂出來，看看多久能夠給我回報，好不好？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["主席：請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我們覺得你這樣的一個行為其實就是藐視國會 藐視我們委員會所以也有要求您要道歉而且也要請您提出一個報告那當時您也有承諾說要提出報告不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告請民主黨說明這個報告現在在哪裡是提出來的時候 我有提出來所以這個虛偽人在當召委的時候 我有提出來"},{"start":80.273,"end":88.957,"text":"許委員在的時候你有當召委你有提出來你可以看一下我的這個凍結案你就可以知道我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告那你有提出來嗎從那個時候到現在從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位不要說你貴為秘書長啦連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告都沒有"},{"start":108.482,"end":125.609,"text":"然後另外喔 因為我們就提出報告了有 我上面的 你看一下解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告喔所以您到現在還不曉得這個解凍案 您今天就要來解凍完全都沒有做準備啊 上面有說 而且您也承諾說要提出報告另外喔 再請教您就是"},{"start":128.035,"end":138.679,"text":"我們在去年8月31號的時候我們通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9248億的法定預算比113年還增加730億而行政院最近以落實財政紀律大砍地方性的補助27.3%"},{"start":149.202,"end":164.847,"text":"那引發各縣市強烈的反彈那也很多縣市可能也會提告那請問行政院對外宣稱這些所謂的一般性補助款屬於得補助的性質並非強制性的支出可是我們根據中華民國憲法第147條的規定中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展也就是說行政院無故刪減地方補助不僅違反法律也是觸犯憲法"},{"start":176.63,"end":182.921,"text":"而我們看到立法院通過的這個統三的決議你請您看一下有一般性補助款嗎有一般性補助款嗎民主黨請您回答"},{"start":190.558,"end":210.647,"text":"在螢幕上這邊嗎對這個就是我們你們當時列出來的希望你們刪減的比例跟項目有一般性補助款嗎沒有沒有好不好你應該再來備詢之前就要了解清楚了結果你還要看半天才告訴我沒有第三項說要另於補助"},{"start":211.667,"end":235.537,"text":"就是自行調整好 他說如三減數未達939億元那以這個比例是不是303億好 我們講的是總三減數喔那總三減數其實台電就1000億啦加上台電1000億不就1300多億了嗎其實就已經夠啦所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼然後非要把它弄到一般性的補助款那個已經刪掉以後還要再往我們刪額外補足636億"},{"start":238.718,"end":262.804,"text":"那636億如果有困難的話你是不是可以也是追加預算為什麼可以用一般性補助款來我們可以看一下報告委員我們第一時間就說自愛男性您看一下所以為什麼提出這個不是好秘書長您說這個一般性補助款的話具有裁量權是得補助不是應補助對不對您這樣講嘛地質法還有這個財政發問法荒謬的來了請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站"},{"start":264.943,"end":292.666,"text":"您看一下喔114年度一般性補助款的編列情形表好我給您看一下內容您看一下這是主計總署所列出來的上頁主計總署所列出來的一般性補助編列情形表你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性的補助款是2501億元都沒有下架"},{"start":294.23,"end":318.968,"text":"這是你們現在在主計總署的網站喔沒有下架所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊刪了還不敢跟證下架因為這是法律義務之初所以如果你刪了就是違法這是法律義務之初再給你看好是誰說是法律義務之初你知道嗎是你們卓榮泰院長請看下一頁我們看一下立法院第十一屆第二會期第一次會議議案的關係文書的第五項"},{"start":320.202,"end":336.481,"text":"依貴院審查111年度的中央政府總預算所決議案另附具114年度的中央政府總預算案編列依法義務支出明細表一份好下一頁您可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出"},{"start":337.66,"end":355.056,"text":"這是卓榮泰院長所發的這個公文所以這份公文是假的嗎這在我們立法院的關係文書上面一般性補助中央政府一定會補助地方政府但法律義務支出沒有說一定要補多少法律義務支出可以刪減嗎"},{"start":357.566,"end":384.505,"text":"這個公然說謊嘛秘書長我覺得知錯能改我們一定會同意解凍但是你在那邊一直硬拗的話我覺得我們沒有辦法接受因為他明明就是法律一支出這也是你們卓榮泰院長卓榮泰院長發的這個立法院的關係文書所以這份公文是假的嗎主席總署的專委說明一下我先問你這份關係文書是假的嗎有卓榮泰院長發出的我沒有叫你回答"},{"start":385.444,"end":397.899,"text":"民主黨 請問這份關係文書是假的嗎 卓文泰院長這個公文是假的嗎我不知道 我要再check一下什麼你不知道因為 因為要查證啊查證 好 那你要多久時間查證"},{"start":399.993,"end":420.915,"text":"難道我會拿一個假的文書來去告訴你嗎你好好查證這表示國會到這種地步我覺得秘書長你真的非常非常的失職這當然是你們這個行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出所以請"},{"start":422.076,"end":448.882,"text":"秘書長不要再公然的說謊了因為其實我們地方上的這些政府他們真的很需要這個一般性的補助他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福還有一些教育類甚至一些基礎建設你現在無關的這個就減掉27.3%有些這個像不管是雲林還有一些比較窮的縣市苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來"},{"start":449.642,"end":472.311,"text":"那雲林來說的話他砍掉了27.3%他的社福他的這個各項的建設根本沒有辦法進行那你用這樣的一個方式捅散27.3%讓地方成為政治的犧牲品這樣子是非常非常說實在不僅違法而且是沒有人道的方式所以請秘書長要跟院長報告三思而後行趕快懸崖勒馬謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":536,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時42分）謝謝主席。請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：秘書長好。今天我聽到很多民進黨委員都在說藍白亂刪預算，這個就是一個謠言，可以在我們的委員會造謠嗎？剛剛秘書長還說表示贊同，我來幫你恢復一下記憶，在去年12月18日內政委員會要審查中央行政院的預算，當時是徐欣瑩委員擔任召委，當天早上因為民進黨委員不斷的杯葛議事，導致委員會空轉一整天，大概到了下午4點議事才恢復正常，召委也宣布恢復開會，當時秘書長也還在我們委員會，可是不曉得為什麼你接了一通神秘電話之後，你就離開了，當時我們覺得你這樣的行為其實就是藐視國會、藐視我們委員會，所以也有要求你要道歉，而且也有請你提出一個報告，當時你也有承諾說要提出報告，不過到現在我們還沒有看到這個報告，請秘書長說明這個報告現在在哪裡？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是，我有提出來，在徐委員當召委的時候，我有提出來。"],["許委員宇甄：徐委員當召委的時候，你有提出來？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["許委員宇甄：你看一下我的凍結案你就可以知道，我的凍結案就是要求你要提出報告，你有提出來嗎？從那個時候到現在，從來沒有一個行政院的任何一位，不要說你貴為秘書長，連下面隨便一位聯絡人也沒有找過我，針對這個解凍案要說明或是提出報告，都沒有！然後另外……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為我們就提出報告。"],["許委員宇甄：有，你看一下我的解凍案裡面有說你要提出報告，所以你到現在還不曉得這個解凍案，你今天就要來解凍了，完全都沒有做準備啊！上面有說，而且你也承諾說要提出報告。","另外再請教你，我們在去年8月31日的時候通過了中華民國史上最高的2兆9,248億的法定預算，比113年還增加730億，而行政院最近落實財政紀律，大砍地方性的補助27.3%，也引發各縣市強烈的反彈，有很多縣市可能也會提告。請問行政院對外宣稱這些一般性補助款屬於「得」補助的性質，並非強制性的支出，可是根據中華民國憲法第一百四十七條的規定，中央政府應該謀求地方經濟的均衡發展，也就是說，行政院無故刪減地方補助，不僅違反法律，也是觸犯憲法。而我們看到立法院通過的統刪決議，請你看一下，裡面有一般性補助款嗎？有一般性補助款嗎？秘書長，請你回答。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：在螢幕上這邊嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：對，這個就是當時列出來希望你們刪減的比例跟項目，裡面有一般性補助款嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：秘書長，沒有！好不好？你應該來備詢之前，就要了解清楚了，結果你還要看半天才告訴我「沒有」。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：第13項說要另予補足，就是自行調整。"],["許委員宇甄：好，他說，如刪減數未達939億元，以這個比例是不是303億元，我們講的是總刪減數喔！以總刪減數來說，其實台電就有1,000億，加上台電的1,000億不就一千三百多億了嗎？其實就已經夠啦！所以我不懂你們在糾結些什麼，然後非要把它弄到一般性補助款？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，是那個已經刪掉以後，還要叫我們刪額外補足636億，如果是你剛剛講的那樣，那就沒問題，但是……"],["許委員宇甄：636億如果有困難的話，你也可以追加預算，為什麼可以用一般性補助款來……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們第一時間就說窒礙難行，所以為什麼提出覆議……"],["許委員宇甄：秘書長，你看一下，你說這個一般性補助款具有裁量權，是「得」補助，不是「應」補助，對不對？你是這樣講嘛？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：地制法還有財政劃分法……"],["許委員宇甄：好，荒謬的來了，請秘書長看一下主計總處的網站，你看一下，114年度一般性補助款編列情形表，我給你看一下內容，這是主計總處所列出來的一般性補助編列情形，你們現在在網站上面還是寫著一般性補助款是2,501億元，都沒有下架，這是現在你們主計總處的網站喔！沒有下架，所以我覺得你在玩兩面手法啊！刪了還不敢更正下架，因為這是法律義務支出，所以如果你刪了就是違法。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：它不是法律義務支出。"],["許委員宇甄：這是法律義務支出。再給你看，是誰說這是法律義務支出的，你知道嗎？是你們卓榮泰院長，我們看一下立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議議案關係文書的第(五)項：「依貴院審查111年度中央政府總預算所作決議，另附具114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表壹份」，你可以看到一般性補助款是不是義務支出？這是卓榮泰院長所發的公文，難道這份公文是假的嗎？這在我們立法院的關係文書上面喔！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：關於一般性補助，中央政府一定會補助地方政府，但法律義務……"],["許委員宇甄：你就在說謊，這是不是法律義務支出？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：法律義務沒有說一定要補多少。"],["許委員宇甄：法律義務支出可以刪減嗎？這就是在公然說謊嘛！秘書長，我覺得知錯能改，我們一定會同意解凍，但是你在這邊一直硬拗的話，我覺得我沒有辦法接受，因為它明明就是法律義務支出，這也是你們卓榮泰院長發的立法院的關係文書，所以這份公文是假的嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：你讓主計總處的官員說明一下，好不好？"],["許委員宇甄：我先問你，這份由卓榮泰院長發出的關係文書是假的嗎？我沒有叫你回答！秘書長，請問這份關係文書是假的嗎？卓榮泰院長發的這個公文是假的嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我不知道，我要再check一下。"],["許委員宇甄：什麼你不知道？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為要查證啊！"],["許委員宇甄：好，那你要多久時間查證？難道我會拿一個假的文書來告訴你嗎？你還要查證，你藐視國會到這種地步，我覺得秘書長，你真的非常非常地失職！這當然是你們行政院長卓榮泰所寫的關係文書，而且下面的明細表還寫著一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出，所以請秘書長不要再公然說謊了，因為其實我們地方上的政府真的很需要一般性的補助，他們才能夠去做一些不管是社福、教育類，甚至一些基礎建設，你現在無端地砍掉27.3%，有些不管是雲林或是一些比較窮的縣市，像苗栗，苗栗甚至到了年底連員工的薪水都發不出來；以雲林來說，砍掉27.3%後，它的社福、它的各項建設根本沒有辦法進行。你用這樣的方式統刪27.3%，讓地方成為政治的犧牲品，這樣子是非常非常……說實在，不僅違法，而且是不人道的方式。所以請秘書長要跟院長報告，三思而後行，趕快懸崖勒馬，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我們請米蘇長米蘇長好我今天好像是第九個質詢嘛那前面您已經回答了八個人米蘇長您上一次來這裡就行政院的預算就進行備詢的時候還記得是什麼時候嗎"},{"start":27.798,"end":49.806,"text":"應該兩三個月嘛大概兩個多月之前我也忘記了好像很久了對但上一次的結果是什麼就行政院預算被大幅凍結甚至是刪除很多不然的話我們今天不用在這裡要來討論行政院預算解凍案吧對委員會全案保留到院會裡面被大幅的你知道行政院的預算被凍了多少刪了多少我們原來總共的預算是15億10億是人事費5億是業務費5億裡面"},{"start":54.81,"end":69.147,"text":"被刪除了兩億五億裡面刪除了兩億然後凍結了五億就是今天要解凍的五億然後還有這個業務費他要求剩下的這個百分之七十要先凍結"},{"start":71.229,"end":95.266,"text":"那你那時候有跟大家說跟這個國民黨和民眾黨的委員說這個會刪除的預算額度這麼高凍結的預算比例這麼高行政院會有至愛難行的部分下半年要怎麼做這些話你有講嗎沒有機會說明因為全案沒有討論實質討論啊你在外界有講嗎你在各個媒體上面啊或者有任何空間的時候你有講嗎有人聽嗎我們有一再的說明"},{"start":99.229,"end":122.079,"text":"那你剛剛啊這個今天時隔三個月之後又來站在這裡剛剛聽到這個又是同樣當時凍結你預算刪除你預算的委員站在這裡講說行政院凍結刪除了地方縣市款的一般補助款這樣導致地方事務自愛難行你叫我們後半年的節目要怎麼做你的心情怎麼樣"},{"start":125.515,"end":146.617,"text":"我心情 我們的這個這個好像是 比這個還要更高這兩邊好像這個如果把這個臉遮住換一下這個好像就是兩三個月前雙方的立場完全交換嘛這講的話一模一樣啊所以就是"},{"start":147.558,"end":176.046,"text":"沒有一個政府沒有一個公務員會扶編預算爛編預算到一個需要被砍掉百分之三十四十甚至超過一半以上的嘛沒有公務員會編這種預算啊如果一個公務員編出了這種會被立法部門抓到辮子抓到有問題而有正當理由刪除百分之五十六十七十以上"},{"start":176.886,"end":203.731,"text":"的行政部門的話那不管他是中央還是地方不管是哪一個政黨質詢那確實啊你如果被正當的刪有理由要被刪這麼多的話那你確實這個行政部門是有問題但你反過來講如果這是不正當不應該這樣刪除的話那這一個監督機關這樣子的腐爛刪除凍結超過一半以上的預算啊這不知道在做什麼啊"},{"start":204.851,"end":222.176,"text":"這例子這樣的監督有道理嗎這是站在立法監督機關應該要有的表現嗎這個今天到底這個道理不正字明嘛你就把今天站在這個質詢台上同一批委員三個月前的談話和今天的談話拿來對照一下"},{"start":224.677,"end":246.07,"text":"這不就是很清楚一個立法機關監督機關該做什麼表現該講什麼話他有沒有依以貫之完全一樣的道理啊不是這樣嗎這個民主黨你這個很想點頭啊但是又不好意思點頭因為怕頭點下去等一下不曉得行政院的預算可不可以被解凍是這樣嗎是是"},{"start":249.335,"end":266.044,"text":"因為照理來講就是說我們行政院編列的預算每一個每一個項目每一分錢基本上都有他要做的事情那當然大院立法院可以針對說他的必要性給你適當的刪除但是他不能說很大的一筆要我們自己去刪除這個"},{"start":268.849,"end":297.367,"text":"市長我覺得你應該試著用最白話的語言跟全國人民解釋我們今年你們今年編的你們編的明年的預算總數是多少3.1兆對不對那被這個在野黨委員藍白聯手煽動了多少2000億多一點2075億嘛現在全國都知道這個2075的數字嘛那在這個裡面他又要求你統三多少"},{"start":298.204,"end":324.485,"text":"統三九三九億統三九三九但是這個統三九三九他也找不出來要刪你的什麼項目他就說你把重複編列的符亂編列的你自己去找啦你再刪一個六三六來啦這就是現在偉大的六三六這個數字嘛對不對好這個六三六你不知道要刪哪一塊啦請問你今天如果不是動一般的地方一般型的補助地方一般型補助那請問你要動哪一塊"},{"start":325.899,"end":330.783,"text":"所以我們為什麼覺得很無奈就是在這裡這不然你就要動計劃型補助嗎這不然你要不要動法定義務之處要不要動公務員的薪水你就是買一塊餅就是這樣它就是一塊餅它就是一個人的身體要不你就砍左手要不你就砍右手要不你就砍右腳要不你就砍左腳反正總是要割一塊肉下來因為636實在太大塊了不知道要砍哪裡啊"},{"start":350.959,"end":369.047,"text":"這不是指甲剪一剪這不是頭髮修一修這樣的問題而已這是要割下你一塊肉剁下你一隻手剁下你一隻腳所以你說如果當行政院當國家的整體預算被砍掉了這麼高額的話你整個人會失去了功能無法運作不是就是這樣嗎"},{"start":370.828,"end":400.068,"text":"那今天你說按照你這裡寫的其實很清楚啊我們在看到你這個在對媒體上面講的時候其實講得很清楚啊你說你實在是負荷不了這個你實在是沒有辦法完成立法院的決議再去自行調整636億所以你找出了這樣子的一塊預算來然後呢你就按照立法院統三國家預算的態度把它統三百分之二十七嘛是"},{"start":400.868,"end":424.085,"text":"是不是老實說我作為地方的民意代表我們也很痛啊我們真的很痛啊因為當藍白委員在砍國家預算的時候那只是一個數字大家沒有感覺但是當這個數字少了總預算編列回到地方縣市政府的預算當然就少了"},{"start":424.665,"end":449.792,"text":"到地方政府的預算少了的時候你家旁邊的造橋、鋪路、水溝、電燈、教育、社會福利每一項都少了這就是跟人民切身相關的啊當藍白砍你的預算書數字的時候你沒有感覺當你家旁邊的水溝不通、路燈不亮當你的租金補貼沒有當你的育兒津貼沒有的時候你就知道"},{"start":451.233,"end":458.461,"text":"對你的生活是非常有影響的而冤有頭債有主到底是誰砍的國家預算就是藍白委員啊今天怎麼還好意思在這裡跟大家講說行政院要砍這個預算當時我們抗爭了多久抗議了多久"},{"start":467.432,"end":481.05,"text":"這到底是怎麼回事嘛所以行政院我真的覺得你今天就算就算這個今天等一下預算節都不順利你也還是應該要把整個邏輯講清楚國家的預算就是這麼多"},{"start":482.626,"end":501.327,"text":"國家的整理預算就是這麼多今天沒有動到一般型的補助也會動到其他的預算每一塊都是人民的痛每一塊都會痛所以今天的源頭就是藍白亂砍預算我們非常非常期待"},{"start":502.108,"end":521.051,"text":"今天藍白委員可以盼然悔悟正是反而他們不是行政院要對大家道歉是這些委員應該要到底為什麼之前會提這種案即便他現在來解凍坦白講很多也來不及了你知道很多在教育藝術文化的這些補助案"},{"start":522.012,"end":541.469,"text":"因為當時沒有成立沒有預算來開這些案所以後面的計畫也都開不了了啊所以這些影視從業工作人員藝人從業工作人員整年的工作都大亂了啊收入也銳減啊這難道不是影響嗎這個今天這樣解凍案解了以後說欸我把立行預算案解了"},{"start":541.849,"end":561.824,"text":"就OK了嗎工程的展延也已經展延了啊不要說別的那台電的補貼沒有下來我們電感地下化爭取了好久的所有的電感地下化每一頁都停住了啊那這個工期損失了三個月四個月算誰的這個是一句預算現在給你解凍啦這樣就可以了嗎"},{"start":562.885,"end":577.042,"text":"所以今天本席真的是不吐不快啦那我覺得秘書長一向是比較溫和偏偏君子所以抱歉今天沒有讓你多講話但是我講的話你應該都同意吧我是覺得秘書長我講的"},{"start":578.323,"end":590.935,"text":"比較大家聽得懂今天就是看你要砍右手還是要砍左手還是要砍左腳還是砍右腳好啊不砍右手那接下來那你說嘛不然你就把663億吞回去就是這麼簡單謝謝秘書長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時32分）謝謝主席，請龔秘書長。"],["主席：龔秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：秘書長好。秘書長，我今天好像是第9個質詢，前面您已經回答了8個人。秘書長，您上一次來這裡就行政院預算進行備詢的時候，還記得是什麼時候嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我想一下。"],["蘇委員巧慧：應該兩、三個月，大概兩個多月之前，我也忘記了，好像很久了，但上一次的結果是什麼？就是行政院的預算被大幅凍結，甚至是刪除很多，不然的話我們今天不用在這裡討論行政院預算解凍案吧！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，委員會全案保留到院會裡面，被大幅地刪減跟凍結。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你知道行政院的預算被凍了多少、刪了多少？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們原來總共的預算是15億，10億是人事費，5億是業務費，5億裡面被刪除了2億，然後……"],["蘇委員巧慧：5億裡面刪除了2億。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：凍結了5億，就是今天要解凍的5億，然後還有業務費還要求剩下的70%要先凍結。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你那時候有跟大家說、跟國民黨和民眾黨的委員說，刪除預算額度這麼高，凍結預算比例這麼高，行政院會有窒礙難行的部分，下半年要怎麼做？這些話你有講嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：沒有機會說明，因為全案沒有實質討論，就全案到……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你在外界有講嗎？你在各個媒體上面或者有任何空間的時候，你有講嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有人聽嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們有一再地說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：今天時隔3個月之後又來站在這裡，剛剛聽到又是同樣當時凍結你預算、刪除你預算的委員，站在這裡說行政院凍結、刪除了地方縣市的一般補助款，這樣導致地方事務窒礙難行，你叫我們下半年的業務要怎麼推？你的心情怎麼樣？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我的心情？我們的急迫性比這個還要更高。"],["蘇委員巧慧：兩邊如果把臉遮住、換一下，這個好像就是兩、三個月前，雙方的立場完全交換嘛！講的話一模一樣啊！所以就是沒有一個政府、沒有一個公務員會浮編預算、濫編預算到需要被砍掉30%、40%，甚至超過一半以上的嘛！沒有公務員會編這種預算啊！如果一個公務員編出這種會被立法部門抓到辮子、抓到有問題，而有正當理由刪除50%、60%、70%以上的行政部門的話，不管它是中央還是地方，不管是哪一個政黨質詢，那確實啊！如果被正當地刪、有理由要被刪這麼多的話，確實這個行政部門是有問題！但反過來講，如果這是不正當、不應該這樣刪除的話，這個監督機關這樣子浮濫刪除、凍結超過一半以上的預算，這不知道在做什麼啊！這樣的監督有道理嗎？這是站在立法監督機關應該要有的表現嗎？今天這個道理不證自明嘛！你就把今天站在這個質詢臺上，同一批委員3個月前的談話和今天的談話拿來對照一下，這不就是很清楚？一個立法監督機關該做什麼表現、該講什麼話，它有沒有一以貫之，完全一樣的道理啊！不是這樣嗎？秘書長，你很想點頭，但是又不好意思點頭，因為怕頭點下去，等一下不曉得行政院的預算可不可以被解凍，是這樣嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是……因為照理來講，我們行政院編列的預算，每一個項目、每一分錢，基本上都有它要做的事情，當然大院、立法院可以針對它的必要性給予適當的刪除，但是不能說很大的一筆要我們自己去刪除，這個是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：秘書長，我覺得你應該試著用最白話的語言跟全國人民解釋，你們編的明年預算總數是多少？3.1兆，對不對？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：被在野黨委員藍白聯手刪、凍了多少？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：兩千億多一點。"],["蘇委員巧慧：2,075億，現在全國都知道這個2075的數字，在這個裡面又要求你統刪多少？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：統刪939億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：統刪939，但是這個統刪939，也找不出來要刪你的什麼項目，他們就說你把重複編列、浮濫編列的自己去找，你再刪一個636來，這就是現在偉大的636這個數字嘛，對不對？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個636，你不知道要刪哪一塊啊，請問你今天如果不是動地方一般型補助，那請問你要動哪一塊？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：所以我們為什麼覺得很無奈，就是在這裡！"],["蘇委員巧慧：再不然你就是要動計畫型補助嘛！再不然你要不要動法定義務支出、要不要動公務員的薪水？買一塊餅就是這樣，它就是一塊餅、它就是一個人的身體，要不你就砍左手、要不你就砍右手、要不你就砍右腳、要不你就砍左腳，反正總是要割一塊肉下來，因為636實在太大塊了，不知道要砍哪裡啊！這不是指甲剪一點、這不是頭髮修一修這樣的問題而已，這是要割下你一塊肉、剁下你一隻手、剁下你一隻腳，所以說如果當行政院、當國家的整體預算被砍掉了這麼高額的話，整個人會失去了功能，無法運作，不就是這樣嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是！"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這裡寫得其實很清楚，我們看到你在對媒體講的時候，其實講得很清楚啊！你說你實在是負荷不了，你實在是沒有辦法完成立法院的決議再去自行調整636億，所以你找出這樣子一塊預算來，然後你就按照立法院統刪國家預算的態度，把它統刪27%嘛！是不是？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：老實說，我作為地方的民意代表，我們也很痛啊！我們真的很痛啊！因為當藍白委員在砍國家預算的時候，那只是一個數字，大家沒有感覺，但是當這個數字少了，總預算編列回到地方縣市政府的預算，當然就少了，當地方政府的預算少了的時候，你家旁邊的造橋、鋪路、水溝、電燈、教育、社會福利每一項都少了，這就是跟人民切身相關的啊！當藍白砍你的預算書數字的時候，你沒有感覺，當你家旁邊的水溝不通、路燈不亮，當你的租金補貼沒有、當你的育兒津貼沒有的時候，你就知道對你的生活是非常有影響的！而冤有頭、債有主，到底是誰砍了國家預算？就是藍白委員啊！今天怎麼還好意思在這裡跟大家說行政院要砍這個預算？當時我們抗爭了多久？抗議了多久？這到底是怎麼回事嘛？所以，行政院，我真的覺得，今天就算等一下預算解凍不順利，你也還是應該要把整個邏輯講清楚，國家的預算就是這麼多、國家的整體預算就是這麼多，今天沒有動到一般型的補助，也會動到其他的預算，每一塊都是人民的痛、每一塊都會痛，所以今天的源頭就是藍白亂砍預算！","我們非常非常期待今天藍白委員可以幡然悔悟，反而不是行政院要對大家道歉，而是這些委員到底為什麼之前會提這種案？即便他現在來解凍，坦白講，很多也來不及了啦！你知道很多在教育、藝術文化的補助案，因為當時沒有預算來開這些案，所以後面的計畫也都開不了，所以這些影視從業工作人員、藝文從業工作人員整年的工作都大亂了啊！收入也銳減啊！這難道不是影響嗎？今天解凍案解了以後說把你的預算案解了，這樣就OK了嗎？工程展延也已經展延啦！不要說別的，台電的補貼沒有下來，我們的電桿地下化，爭取了好久的所有電桿地下化，每一案都停住啦！這個工期損失了3個月、4個月算誰的？這個是一句現在預算給你解凍啦！這樣就可以了嗎？所以今天本席真的是不吐不快，我覺得秘書長一向是比較溫和、翩翩君子，所以不好意思，今天沒有讓你多講話，但是我講的話，你應該都同意吧？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：秘書長，我是覺得我講的大家比較聽得懂，今天就是看你要砍右手還是砍左手或是要砍左腳還是砍右腳，好啊！不砍右手，接下來你說嘛！不然你就把636億吞回去，就是這麼簡單！謝謝秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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國管局政府 他們的直屬單位就是中央立法院 行政院他們的直屬單位是不是所以"},{"start":78.7,"end":94.811,"text":"他們都替我們行政院 當了解到地方的需求 了解地方需要建設 了解地方跟阿拉川省 整個省下來向中央來告告到地方的需求來向中央來請出經費 來替我們地方來建設還有 當我們這個統籌分配款 這也是過去一直以來就是都由中央來支付給我們管理政府的 這也是正確的"},{"start":109.673,"end":122.091,"text":"正確嗎 正確 當這次的綜藝省裡面 我會記得當我們這個工作給我們地方的同儲分配款是一甲都沒有刪掉嗎 對嗎"},{"start":126.195,"end":142.704,"text":"報告委員主委總書這邊跟您說明一下就是在我國的這個政府的體系裡面來講的話中央政府跟地方政府都是獨立的公法人都是獨立有民選去運作的所以地方政府雲林縣政府他本來就要依照地方制度法去"},{"start":143.504,"end":158.525,"text":"去實施他的地方自治事項那地方自治事項該負擔的經費也要由雲林縣政府來負擔那只是說有時候可能在地方政府在裁員上面有所困難的時候所以他需要中央來做協助所以中央在預算裡面會編列補助款"},{"start":160.647,"end":189.787,"text":"所以補助款只是說是地方政府的事情那我中央在財政上給予支援那這支援必須要看我中央的財政能力的狀況我可以支援到什麼狀況那理論上地方政府的該補關的錢你這樣說我們政府我們政府稅收的稅金我們就可以自己留著就好了是沒錯我們可以自己留著我們不用上繳中央國庫如果再依照這個財務法規定的地方稅當然是地方收地方去用沒錯"},{"start":190.527,"end":191.028,"text":"只是裡面有一個統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統統"},{"start":219.911,"end":220.453,"text":"依靠你了"},{"start":222.533,"end":249.623,"text":"我跟委員報告這個統籌分配稅款是可能就是從所得稅提撥出來或會務稅跟這個土地政治稅提撥出來你建議區議會讓我們分明管政府多少個統籌分配稅款是財政部負責他不編入我們中央政府的總預算不是我們主計處加不是是財政部負責的我們主計處這邊是代行政院在處理這個一般性補助款的部分一般性補助款的部分好這樣我就請我們基屬長"},{"start":256.429,"end":277.511,"text":"因為中央政府的預算裡面是不包含統籌分配因為統籌分配他是按照公式所以公式訂了以後該給多少財政部就直接撥給了地方政府那一定是有預計說明年要多少要給地方多少今年就要預計好還是今年就要規劃好的啊"},{"start":278.252,"end":292.903,"text":"因為投資分配款基本上它有一個公式它等到相關的一些稅的結果出來按照那個公式就知道說每一個縣市可以分配多少不是這樣啦我們那一年"},{"start":295.245,"end":299.627,"text":"我們中央政府要構造我們地方的這個同儲分配款喔其實那當今一年就都計算好了是啊是啊當今一年計算好了是啊我們今年我們中央要給我們分離的同儲分配款總共是一百三十七億是"},{"start":310.872,"end":318.218,"text":"一共有37億啦對啊 結果我們黨 我們這個中央政府我們整個的綜藝省我們將對這個統籌分配款將對在國際的綜藝省的股份我們一戶人都有去刪除到就是代表說可以順利讓我們中央教醫院一樣繼續構造我們地方的統籌分配款可以讓他們順利來執行到"},{"start":339.535,"end":346.758,"text":"我們之前的一些學務甚至學歷也好結果今年我們婦人館政府不要說婦人館政府而已啦全國的國管制我們行政院主動給三點二十七點三二塊婦人館的薪三十七塊六塊喔三十七億六啦三十七億六啦"},{"start":362.366,"end":364.548,"text":"我們要基礎建設,我們要照顧到我們這裡福利的,我們要跟法官有聯絡的情緒,我們一個省管有辦法一個省37億人"},{"start":383.001,"end":386.566,"text":"這對我們婦人館長今年後半年來要來執行到我們公屋要來執行到社會福利這樣是要怎麼執行這樣可以這樣把我們關起來"},{"start":394.98,"end":401.142,"text":"報告委員說老實話我們也覺得非常無奈大體通商的939億你說立法院選中央議員綜商不是每年才發生的綜商是每一年都發生但是那個額度都很小很小我們有辦法自己去調整你們有什麼問題你們可以比加強議員有什麼問題我主席對著我們今天的行政院我們這個中議省的解答案真的我們都很樂觀"},{"start":424.989,"end":442.015,"text":"你看國會都在解凍,國會都在解凍,有沒有遇到什麼困難?有疑問的大家再研究討論對啊,我們也是希望說,因為這經費對於行政單位來說是非常重要的醫生對於行政單位來說,真的是非常要緊的所以我們知道說,醫生的重要性"},{"start":449.358,"end":472.826,"text":"啊再加上我們會替中央政府消防衛生的重要性再加上我們地方管理政府的衛生的重要性這個道義在哪裡?這個公平性在哪裡?事實上我們中央政府對於地方政府事實上是大力支持所以如果加上您剛才提到的統籌分配本一般補助還有計劃型補助事實上我們編列的預算是總共加起來是超過一兆"},{"start":473.866,"end":488.093,"text":"那個都是要來支持地方的那但是因為我們中央政府的預算被砍那麼多的情況之下而且有這麼一大筆的六百多億必須要自行參選的情況之下這個做老實話是不如奈 這是統三的過分啊統三的過分啊 是啊 是啊我們秘書長在說是統三的過分統三就是九百三十九億啊 統三是由我們國國會全體國際的基礎或是全體府間或是從府間內我們可以下去去參選"},{"start":503.737,"end":508.465,"text":"不是說統三就是叫你們來統三管治政府的這個分科的款這樣我們管治政府再來後面的年度是要怎麼再繼續經營下去"},{"start":515.878,"end":529.511,"text":"我知道這件事不是秘書長你可以有辦法做決定我還要推動政府歡迎給你們聽還有一人 不好意思 還有我花一兩分鐘的時間來 董委員剛才有在把我們秘書長提起的我們這個高中的產業研修這檔一掛十年的時候 那時候我們秘書長在做"},{"start":541.002,"end":543.305,"text":"政府委員兼國會主任那時候是高中產業園區合併的時期我剛才聽到有院長和經濟局長討論盡快推動高中產業園區"},{"start":559.713,"end":567.855,"text":"除了炸高中就要發電了炸高中就要發電在這30年你們學生管政府已經去招商都很好了都很好了產業也在進駐管政府也一直在開始在發表到我們這個產業園區的這個工程啊希望遇到一個選舉天災地變來一切天災天災平平全都不一樣的這個高中產業園區"},{"start":588.854,"end":591.435,"text":"現在要變成那時候是九十幾個九十幾個做第一期讓我們婦人館政府環境就可以馬上進行現在說要一、兩個七十個開始進行推動我也是"},{"start":605.839,"end":613.926,"text":"支持啦 我也是支持啦 既然社會已經煮成功了 我也是支持我們現在一兩百七十甲下去推動但是風勢 風勢要怎麼加快 要怎麼讓我們電影的發展會更快這就是要靠我們中央 我們行政院 我們經濟局 我們農業局來專利來跟我們合作啦 國 真正的"},{"start":630.459,"end":637.602,"text":"現在年輕人有機會越來越少出外越多當我們故鄉的林考所越來越老年化年輕人的感覺在故鄉沒有機會這也不是你們想要看的也不是我們想期待的我們要把地方發生的事情要順便讓你們知道我們要替我們地方跟我們中央做一個溝通的橋樑希望我們過這個橋過到那邊下來的時候給你們的訊息希望你們可以"},{"start":659.612,"end":659.752,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":427,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（10時21分）感謝主席，我等你就位才要開始說。讓秘書長休息一下，我請主計處呂處長跟行政院主計總處公務預算處的專門委員。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請兩位。"],["呂處長秋香：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：處長好。地方公所的直屬單位是縣政府，所以他們的分配款是由縣政府分配給地方公所，對嘛？他們是在替地方公所做為民服務的第一線，也替我們縣政府來做本鄉鎮的發展規劃。我們雲林縣政府、各縣市政府的直屬單位就是我們的中央行政院，對嘛？所以他們都替行政院去了解地方的需求、地方需要的建設、地方要如何轉型增加產業，然後向中央報告地方的需求、向中央爭取經費、替我們地方來建設。","還有一點就是我們的統籌分配款，過去一直以來都是由中央來支付給我們縣市政府，這也是正確的嘛？"],["呂處長秋香：對。"],["丁委員學忠：正確啦！在這次的總預算裡面，我記得補助給地方的統籌分配款是一毛都沒刪，對嘛？"],["吳專門委員銘修：報告委員，主計總處這邊跟您說明一下。在我國的政府體系裡面來講的話，中央政府跟地方政府都是獨立的公法人，都是獨立由民選去運作的，所以地方政府雲林縣政府本來就要依照地方制度法去實施它的地方自治事項，那地方自治事項該負擔的經費也要由雲林縣政府來負擔，只是說有時候可能地方政府在財源上有所困難而需要中央的協助，所以中央在預算裡面會編列補助款。"],["丁委員學忠：我們每一年都有補助款嘛。"],["吳專門委員銘修：對，所以補助款的部分只是說是地方政府的事情，我中央在財政上給予支援，而這個支援必須要看我中央的財政能力狀況、我可以支援到什麼狀況。"],["丁委員學忠：不是這樣。"],["吳專門委員銘修：理論上地方政府該負擔的錢……"],["丁委員學忠：你這樣說，那我們地方政府收的稅金就可以自己留著就好了。"],["吳專門委員銘修：是，沒錯，地制法是規定……"],["丁委員學忠：我們可以自己留著，不用上繳中央國庫吧！"],["吳專門委員銘修：如果再依照財劃法規定的地方稅，當然是地方收、地方去用沒錯，只是裡面有一個……"],["丁委員學忠：縣市政府需要的，我們中央的分配款、統籌分配款是不是在前一年就都設定好了？"],["吳專門委員銘修：跟委員報告，統籌分配稅款就它的設計上來講，在地方稅以外有一些稅目，我們可能必須要由這些稅目來統籌出來，然後由財政部統籌分配給地方，例如所得稅……"],["丁委員學忠：這樣的話，依你們的規劃，今年給我們雲林縣政府的統籌分配款是多少？。"],["吳專門委員銘修：跟委員報告，這個統籌分配稅款可能就是從所得稅提撥出來，或貨物稅、土地增值稅提撥出來。"],["丁委員學忠：你們今年規劃給我們雲林縣政府是多少？"],["吳專門委員銘修：統籌分配稅款是財政部負責，不編入我們中央政府的總預算。"],["丁委員學忠：不是我們主計總處這裡負責？"],["吳專門委員銘修：不是，是財政部負責的，我們主計總處這邊是代行政院在處理一般性補助款的部分。"],["丁委員學忠：一般性補助款的部分？"],["吳專門委員銘修：對。"],["丁委員學忠：好，那我就請我們秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，中央政府的預算裡面是不包含統籌分配，因為統籌分配是按照公式，所以公式訂了以後，該給多少，財政部就直接撥給地方政府，那一般性補助跟……"],["丁委員學忠：一定是有預備說明年要給地方多少，今年就要預備好還是今年就要規劃好的啊！一定是這樣。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為統籌分配款有一個公式，等到相關的一些稅目稅的結果出來，按照那個公式就知道每個縣市可以分配多少。"],["丁委員學忠：不是這樣啦！每一年中央政府要補助地方的統籌分配款，其實在上一年就都計算好了。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是啊。"],["丁委員學忠：在上一年就計算好了。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["丁委員學忠：今年中央要給我們雲林的統籌分配款總共是137億。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["丁委員學忠：結果在中央政府整個總預算，針對這個統籌分配款、針對補助各縣市的預算部分，我們一塊錢都沒有刪除，這就代表可以順利讓中央照以往一樣繼續補助我們地方統籌分配款，可以讓他們順利去執行基層的服務，甚至是福利，結果今年我們雲林縣政府，不要說雲林縣政府而已，包括全國各縣市，我們行政院這邊自動刪減27.32%，雲林縣就減了37.6億。秘書長，我知道這不是你在決定的，但我也是要讓你知道，我們雲林是五級貧窮縣，我們要基礎建設，也要照顧到我們的這些福利，還要發公務人員的薪水，我們一個貧窮縣市有辦法一下子減了37.6億？這對我們雲林縣今年下半年要執行的公務、社會福利來說，這樣是要怎麼去執行？可以這樣把它刪掉嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，說老實話我們也覺得非常無奈。"],["丁委員學忠：對啊！你們說立法院刪中央預算……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：當大筆通刪了939億，然後636億……"],["丁委員學忠：統刪不是從今年才發生，統刪是每一年都有。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是，但是那個額度都很小、很小，我們有辦法自己去調勻……"],["丁委員學忠：你們有什麼問題，你們可以追加減預算……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：但今天是六百多億，這個是沒辦法調勻的。"],["丁委員學忠：有什麼問題……我對今天行政院總預算的解凍案真的都很樂觀，你看各部會也都在解凍，有遇到什麼困難嗎？有疑問的，大家可以再研究、討論。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["丁委員學忠：對啊！我們也是希望行政單位……因為這個經費對行政單位來說非常重要，預算對行政單位來說真的非常重要，所以我們知道預算的重要性，也替中央政府考慮到預算的重要性，結果我們地方縣市政府預算的重要性呢？這個道義在哪裡？這個公平性在哪裡？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們中央政府對於地方政府事實上是大力支持的，加上您剛剛提到的統籌分配款、一般補助還有計畫型補助，事實上，我們編列的預算總共加起來是超過1兆，那都是要來支持地方的，但是因為我們中央政府的預算被砍那麼多的情況之下，而且有這麼一大筆、六百多億必須自行刪減的情況之下，說老實話是迫於無奈……"],["丁委員學忠：那是統刪的部分嘛，對不對？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是啊、是啊。"],["丁委員學忠：我們秘書長在說的是統刪的部分。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：統刪的就是939億。"],["丁委員學忠：統刪是由我們各部會針對沒有必要的支出、針對浮編、重複編列，我們可以予以刪減，不是說統刪就是叫你們來統刪縣市政府的分配款，這樣我們縣市政府接下來的下半年度是要怎麼繼續經營下去？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：如果……"],["丁委員學忠：我知道這件事情不是秘書長有辦法做決定的，但我要替地方政府反映給你們知道。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：了解、了解。"],["丁委員學忠：不好意思，再給我一、兩分鐘的時間，不好意思。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：好，丁委員，請。"],["丁委員學忠：剛才有跟我們秘書長提及褒忠產業園區，110年的時候秘書長是政務委員兼國發會主任委員，那時候就核定了褒忠產業園區。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["丁委員學忠：我記得我剛剛上任的時候，有跟院長、經濟部長討論儘快來推動褒忠產業園區，其實很早就要發展褒忠了，110年你們就核准了，縣政府已經招商好了，產業也要進駐，縣政府也開始要發包這個產業園區的工程，結果突然遇到一個選舉、天災地變來，一切結果都不一樣了，這個褒忠產業園區現在就變成……那時候是九十幾甲去做第一期，等我們雲林縣政府完成環評就可以馬上下去執行，現在說要以270甲下去推動，我也是支持啦，既然生米已煮成熟飯了，我也是支持現在以270甲下去推動，但是這個方式要怎麼加快？要怎麼讓我們地方的發展可以更快速？這就要靠中央行政院、經濟部、農業部全力來協助我們，否則現在年輕人的就業機會愈來愈少，外出人口愈來愈多，我們故鄉的人口也愈來愈老年化，年輕人覺得在故鄉沒機會了，這也不是你們想看到的，也不是我們所期待的。我們要把地方發生的事情說明給你們知道，我們替地方跟中央做一個溝通的橋梁，希望我們過這麼高的橋，從這個橋下來的時候所給你們的訊息，你們可以給我們一個滿意的協助跟答案，這樣好不好？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好。"],["丁委員學忠：秘書長，再拜託你了。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝丁學忠委員質詢。","請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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請秘書長跟主計處處長我想先請問一下我們主計處的呂處長我們在編預算的裡面有法定支出"},{"start":33.417,"end":54.104,"text":"是不是有法定支出這個名詞有有嘛那有法定預算嗎有法定預算都有嘛對不對所以剛剛大家一直在講什麼法定預算什麼什麼都不能動不能砍是這樣嗎"},{"start":58.43,"end":82.068,"text":"法律支出跟法定預算是不一樣的法定預算是我們整個預算在行政院送到立法院叫預算案預算案審查通過就是我們院通過以後總統公佈以後叫法定預算法律支出就是我們在預算的編列的時候有一些編列的項目是有法律明定的"},{"start":82.768,"end":109.943,"text":"那個叫法律義務支出比如說像人事費我們公務人員的那個人事費那所以法律義務支出呢我們行政組織總署也有一些定義但是呢就是說這個法律義務支出人事費法律上明定以外又編入預算所以是在規範它有一定的編制的標準跟編入預算是這個意思對啦所以我就請教啦應該有一個"},{"start":112.705,"end":128.948,"text":"你的法定預算既然是法定預算了是已經公佈了吧對不對是已經公佈了那叫法定預算啊早上有很多人在講法定預算不能砍啊他公佈了啊他還有機會砍嗎"},{"start":130.834,"end":150.328,"text":"法定預算就是措施性的法律就是總統公布的法律我的意思是法定預算就是這個預算案已經定案了嘛就是多少了嘛已經核定了嘛總統也公布了嘛在縣市可能縣市首長也都公布我今年要花多少嘛對不對這個是不是才叫做法定預算"},{"start":151.482,"end":178.692,"text":"法定預算這個名詞是法律名詞預算法上的法律名詞對啦對是總統公佈以後的叫法定預算總統公佈以後那個法律名詞就叫做法定預算是不是是嘛對不對那我們在審預算的時候我們在審預算的時候應該有一些叫做法定的支出吧法定的義務支出法定的義務支出法律義務支出對嘛這個兩個是不同的概念吧不同"},{"start":179.252,"end":193.027,"text":"不同嘛對啊所以我剛剛一直在想一直在聽我一直覺得每個人都這樣講讓我搞混了啊所以我要請教請教你啊所以我的觀念才是對的吧"},{"start":194.414,"end":218.279,"text":"那是委員 是的是啦齁所以在那講幾步講幾載有的很多人甚至還有說要怎麼樣說什麼法定預算不能砍或什麼的我一直覺得很奇怪啦就我的認知法定預算就已經公布了當然你要砍你也沒得砍了啊除了追加減可不可以請我們行政院主計總處他主管這邊有這個"},{"start":220.739,"end":237.171,"text":"不是啦就很清楚就是這樣了嘛對不對你除了追加減你才可能去動它了嘛不然你怎麼可能還會去動它我的意思就是說其實要來處理一個這個追加減或是我們今天要解凍"},{"start":238.211,"end":261.15,"text":"其實不用有那麼多理由啦要合理的預算我們就支持嘛啊不合理的當然要被凍結要被那個我覺得這個就是一個最基本的原則我覺得是這樣吧祕書長是不是這樣蛤沒有你說啦是啦齁啊所以啊其實原則就是在這裡而已啊對不對齁我認為啦"},{"start":265.12,"end":291.127,"text":"行政院今天我們來處理這個解凍案你們業務費什麼撐不下去的或什麼的你們要勇敢大聲的說出來啊你們如果不說誰知道啊對不對連剛剛大家在講那些都講的我跟你講全國人民齁沒有多少人聽得懂你們法定預算法定義務支出什麼什麼沒有什麼啦但你們現在就撐不下去了吧水電費繳不繳得出來"},{"start":295.367,"end":324.086,"text":"不是 我叫你要大聲講 你們還都不講過去一直準決啦 但是還是有他的時間性還是撐不久吧對啦 我覺得啦該說的就說啦 該爭取的就爭取嘛我們今天應該聚焦在這裡啦其他的也不用去說太多啦我覺得啦 等一下我們在那個時候你們就大聲講嘛 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":327.083,"end":327.104,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時15分）我先請龔秘書長還有主計處處長。"],["主席：好，請秘書長跟主計處處長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：召委好。"],["張委員宏陸：我想先請問一下主計處的呂處長，我們在編預算的裡面有法定支出，是不是有法定支出這個名詞？"],["呂處長秋香：有。"],["張委員宏陸：那有法定預算嗎？"],["呂處長秋香：有法定預算，有。"],["張委員宏陸：都有嘛？對不對？"],["呂處長秋香：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以剛剛大家一直在講什麼法定預算，什麼、什麼都不能動、不能砍，是這樣嗎？"],["呂處長秋香：法律義務支出跟法定預算是不一樣的，法定預算是我們整個預算在行政院送到立法院叫預算案，預算案審查通過，總統公布以後叫法定預算；而法律義務支出是我們在預算編列的時候，有一些編列的項目是有法律明定的，那個叫法律義務支出，比如說像我們公務人員的人事費。對於法律義務支出，行政院主計總處也有一些定義，但是就法律義務支出，人事費除法律上明定以外，又編入預算，所以是在規範它有一定的編製標準跟編入預算，是這個意思。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！所以我就請教……"],["呂處長秋香：不敢當。"],["張委員宏陸：你的法定預算既然是法定預算了，是已經公布了嘛？對不對？"],["呂處長秋香：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是已經公布了，那叫法定預算，早上有很多人在講法定預算不能砍，但它公布了啊！它還有機會砍嗎？"],["呂處長秋香：法定預算就是措施性的法律，就是總統公布的法定預算……"],["張委員宏陸：不，我的意思是，法定預算就是這個預算已經定案了嘛，就是多少了嘛，已經核定了嘛，總統也公布了嘛，在縣市可能縣市首長也都公布了今年要花多少嘛，對不對？這個是不是才叫做法定預算？是不是這樣講？"],["呂處長秋香：法定預算這個名字是法律名詞，預算法上的法律名詞。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！"],["呂處長秋香：是總統公布以後的，叫法定預算。"],["張委員宏陸：總統公布以後的那個法律名詞就叫做法定預算，是不是？"],["呂處長秋香：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！對不對？那我們在審預算的時候，應該有一些叫做法定的支出吧？"],["呂處長秋香：法律義務支出。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛？這兩個是不同的概念吧？"],["呂處長秋香：不同。"],["張委員宏陸：不同嘛，所以我剛剛一直在想一直在聽，我一直覺得每個人都這樣講，讓我搞混了，所以我要請教你，我的觀念才是對的吧？"],["呂處長秋香：是的，委員。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛，所以在那邊講了老半天，講了整個早上，很多人甚至還說什麼法定預算不能砍或什麼，我一直覺得很奇怪，就我的認知，法定預算就已經公布了，當然你要砍也沒得砍了啊！除了追加減……"],["呂處長秋香：可不可以請行政院主計總處，因為它主管這邊，有專委。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦！就很清楚是這樣了嘛，對不對？你除了追加減才可能去動它，不然你怎麼可能還能去動它？我的意思是，要來處理追加減或是我們今天要解凍，其實不用有那麼多理由啦！合理的預算我們就支持，不合理的要被凍結、要被那個，我覺得這就是一個最基本的原則，我覺得是這樣，秘書長，是不是這樣？你說啦！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是吧？所以原則就是在這裡而已，對不對？我認為行政院今天來我們這裡處理這個解凍案，你們業務費什麼撐不下去或什麼，你們要勇敢大聲說出來，你們如果不說，誰知道啊？對不對？剛剛大家在講那些都講的……我跟你講，全國人民沒有多少人聽得懂你們法定預算、法律義務支出什麼、什麼，沒有什麼啦！但你們現在就撐不下去了吧？水電費繳不繳得出來？"],["呂處長秋香：繳不出來。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啊！我叫你要大聲講，你們還都不講。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：過去一直撙節啦！但還是有它的時間性，還是撐不……"],["張委員宏陸：撐不久吧？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，撐不久。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我覺得啦！該說的就說啦！該爭取的就爭取嘛！我們今天應該聚焦在這裡，其他的也不用去說太多，我覺得等一下我們在那個時候你們就大聲講嘛，好不好？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委的質詢。","再來，我們請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們請祕書長好 請祕書長好 祕書長早喔 這幾天大家都在討論這個一般性補助跟行政院的關係說要來杯葛你們 說你們亂砍了他們的預算我還是再次請教喔 請問祕書長這個預算到底是誰砍的啊"},{"start":27.814,"end":55.149,"text":"立法院的決議啊當然在立法院院會裡面通過的當然主要應該贊成的都是藍白的立法委員是嘛秘書長也知道嘛你們很努力的想要挽回這一筆預算跟我們立法院說不要亂砍這個砍下去傷害到的是全台的人民當時你們還苦口婆心苦口婆心的一個一個勸就算了你們也提出復議了該表達的都表達了結果立法院最後"},{"start":56.269,"end":60.952,"text":"亂刪了一個900多億最後說636億要我們行政院自行去補足然後自行調科目那我看了這個要怎麼調科目啊因為他們現在就是問你拿著一把刀問你說你要砍左手還是要砍右手啊砍下去都是他們的錯啊砍下去人民都痛啊我剛剛看了一下這個其實你們這個政院的這筆預算喔"},{"start":84.625,"end":100.428,"text":"有勞保啦 有住宅基金啦 農發基金啦 農損基金啦打架的 防災的經費啦 還有最重要的國防預算啦也就是說如果現在我們要挑一個項目 請問這些項目可以挑嗎那個都沒有辦法挑 所以我們才在自然難行之下提出這個我們也不願意的一個方式"},{"start":112.857,"end":132.86,"text":"這真的很無奈啦怎麼說很無奈我知道行政院很為難我剛講的這幾個項目沒有一個人敢做這個決定說你也敢去砍國防預算啊萬一如果我們砍了國防預算是不是藍白又要來說你看我們的政府不支持國防沒有要捍衛自身的決心了所以國防預算絕對不能砍嘛"},{"start":134.421,"end":139.542,"text":"勞保可以砍嗎 不能砍嘛農損可以砍嗎 也不能砍嘛對農民的照顧這些都很重要打架更不用說了也都是大家都認為非常重要的一筆經費所以這樣看來看去沒有一筆是可以砍的那等於是怎麼樣都是要逼你們做壞人嘛所以我認為這個對鎮員來說真的很為難但其實最 老實說啦最無奈最委屈的莫過於我們南部縣市"},{"start":159.648,"end":176.265,"text":"因為其實我們南部縣市過去也本來就是因為財政體質不好所以其實中央也都是利用一般性補助的方式讓我們南部的縣市可以透過一般性的補助可以拿到一些至少不要財政上這麼困難結果這樣子一般性補助一刀劃下去"},{"start":177.286,"end":205,"text":"砍的最重的就是我們南高屏尤其是我們高雄市八個委員在立法院全力捍衛預算這麼努力的幫行政院捍衛但結果最後因為這個藍白的二手砍下去的結果受傷最重的卻是我們高雄市那我在這邊也覺得很委屈啦還是希望說希望明年如果藍白願意回頭了如果藍白願意妥協願意道歉了"},{"start":206.141,"end":232.171,"text":"那我們趕快重新把這個預算補足不要讓我們南部的縣市成為最大的這個冤大頭我認為是真的非常的委屈啦在這邊也讓政院知道說我已經從上禮拜到這禮拜我已經接到非常多我們高雄市的鄉親跟我哭訴說哇怎麼這個砍下去我們高雄市這麼支持我們行政院的預算這麼支持我們國家政府的"},{"start":232.971,"end":243.497,"text":"財政的結構也支持財政健全都不支持這樣子他們亂砍預算的結果最後受害的是我們南部我這個還是要在這邊幫我們南部的鄉親來表達好最後一點時間我要來跟這個秘書長請教一下我們職場霸凌匿名通報的事情因為我知道說從去年這個勞動部的事情發生之後我們行政院其實動作也很快"},{"start":256.665,"end":270.439,"text":"馬上處理了一個報名通報的申訴平台可以上線了那到現在看起來也是有一些案件都有列管追蹤但是我想要講的是其實有很多民眾跟我反映他們希望還是有一個匿名通報的選項因為他們當然會擔心被報復或者是說在這個職場的環境裡面有一些壓力所以如果能匿名通報是最好的"},{"start":279.048,"end":307.763,"text":"那當然有民眾也有發現說其實在網頁裡面如果你用一個這個公務人員人事服務網的帳號的方式可以技術性的匿名通報所以我在這邊是想要建議說是不是就有一個方式是讓他們可以直接匿名通報如果已經在這個職場上面有遭受到霸凌的情況或者是他們有一些壓力想要藉此來讓自己受到保護的情況下可以反映這個霸凌的案件是不是可以有這樣的管道呢"},{"start":309.667,"end":336.277,"text":"我們並不是說如果匿名的話我們就完全丟掉不管不是他如果描述的內容非常明確的話比如說某一個人他怎麼樣怎麼樣的話也會去了解跟調查如果真的有這樣的形式的話也是會處理的除非說他又匿名然後又沒有指明什麼樣的情況然後又很模糊對那我們沒有辦法調查最重要的是能不能調查如果可以調查我們就會啟動調查"},{"start":337.998,"end":353.417,"text":"好那這就是我想要拜託啦那當然我認為這個霸凌通報的申訴平台要持續運作然後也希望你們可以實質的列管追蹤讓這個如果真的有受到任何不平的民眾都可以受到你們的保障好嗎是好那張嵐"},{"start":354.438,"end":377.416,"text":"在這邊最後我也講一點啦其實剛剛最後秘書長也有提到你們性平業務的部分我在這邊是希望可以督促你們性平業務的督導因為大家也知道說最近其實台灣各地都還是有發生一些性平的事件最近最著名的就是這個金門京城國中的一個老師他命題的內容真的不堪入目我一個字都不想再看"},{"start":378.217,"end":405.024,"text":"那這個案件當然是屬於教育部的業館那當然我希望性平竟然是我們政府非常重要的一個政策我也知道性平處很努力那這樣方面的業務督導我們是不是也可以把我們這些正確的性平觀念可以佈局到所有的政府機關裡面會會我們會透過性平處跟各部會在讓他們理解跟了解這個必須要的這個性平的注意"},{"start":406.621,"end":430.162,"text":"那因為我是認為說這一次他們學校的懲處其實是非常不夠的包括說這個老師的言行已經這麼嚴正了結果他只有停聘六個月他的懲處就是停聘六個月而已我相信大家看了都會覺得這個對於一個在提升性平意識的做法都是不足夠的所以我是希望說政院這邊也要拿出我們政府的態度我們對於性平的重視"},{"start":431.383,"end":441.518,"text":"那是 包括說剛剛其實祕書長也有提到我們現在的一些重點的性品業務嘛是不是可以再跟大家報告一下我們接下來重點的做法好 我是不是請那個 性物處處長好 請處長"},{"start":445.253,"end":472.337,"text":"谢谢委员那性平处这边就是我们有性别平等的纲领那每四年呢我们都有重要的性别推动的计划重点那今年呢114年已经上一期的最后一年那所以我们会研发下一个年度的四年的一个重点的计划那包括在角色参与提升女性经济力还有性别歧视的这个部分的一个消除那还有就是在这个人身安全的这个性别平等的一个"},{"start":472.717,"end":495.949,"text":"我们有个国家的行动计划那这个都是我们未来一个很重要的一个推动的方向那歧视的这一块确实是一个很需要在全面性的一个性别平等意识提升的这个部分所以也是我们未来很重要的一个推动方向好这个要拜托然后也希望你们定一些政策的时候可以更细致这个是一定要的好吗好这个拜托处长好谢谢秘书长"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時6分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：黃委員早。"],["黃委員捷：秘書長早。這幾天大家都在討論一般性補助跟行政院的關係，說要杯葛你們、說你們亂砍他們的預算，我還是再次請教秘書長，這個預算到底是誰砍的啊？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：立法院的決議當然是在立法院院會裡面通過的，贊成的應該都是藍白的立法委員。"],["黃委員捷：是嘛，秘書長也知道嘛！你們很努力地想要挽回這一筆預算，跟我們立法院說不要亂砍，這個砍下去傷害到的是全臺的人民，當時你們還苦口婆心，苦口婆心的一個一個勸就算了，你們也提出覆議了，該表達的都表達了，結果立法院最後亂刪了一個九百多億，最後說636億要行政院自行補足、自行調科目。那要怎麼調科目？因為他們現在就是拿著一把刀問你要砍左手還是要砍右手，砍下去都是他們的錯，砍下去人民都痛！我剛剛看了一下，政院的這筆預算有勞保、有住宅基金、農發基金、農損基金、打詐與防災的經費還有最重要的國防預算，如果現在我們要挑一個項目，請問這些項目可以挑嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：這個都沒有辦法挑，所以我們才在窒礙難行之下提出這個我們也不願意的一個方式。"],["黃委員捷：這是真的很無奈啦，怎麼說很無奈？我知道行政院很為難，我剛剛講的這幾個項目沒有一個人敢做決定去砍國防預算，如果你們砍了國防預算，是不是藍白又要來說，你看我們的政府不支持國防、沒有要捍衛自身的決心了？所以國防預算絕對不能砍；勞保可以砍嗎？不能砍！農損可以砍嗎？也不能砍，這些對農民的照顧都很重要！打詐更不用說了，也是大家都認為非常重要的一筆經費。所以這樣看來看去，沒有一筆是可以砍的，等於怎麼樣都是要逼你們做壞人嘛，所以我認為這個對政院來說真的很為難！","老實說，最無奈、最委屈的莫過於我們南部縣市，其實我們南部縣市過去本來就是因為財政體質不好，所以中央也都是利用一般性補助的方式讓我們南部縣市可以透過一般性補助拿到一些，至少不要財政上這麼困難，結果這樣子一般性補助一刀劃下去，砍得最重的就是我們南高屏，尤其是我們高雄市8個委員在立法院全力捍衛預算，這麼努力地幫行政院捍衛，但最後因為藍白的惡手砍下去，結果受傷最重的卻是我們高雄市！","我在這邊也覺得很委屈，還是希望明年如果藍白願意回頭了，如果藍白願意妥協、願意道歉了，那我們趕快重新把這個預算補足，不要讓我們南部的縣市成為最大的冤大頭，我認為真的非常委屈！在這邊也讓政院知道，從上禮拜到這禮拜我已經接到非常多我們高雄市的鄉親跟我哭訴，哇！怎麼這個砍下去，我們高雄市這麼支持行政院的預算、這麼支持我們國家政府的財政結構、也支持財政健全，都不支持他們這樣子亂砍預算，結果最後受害的是我們南部，這部分還是要在這邊幫我們南部的鄉親表達。","好，最後一點時間，我要來跟秘書長請教一下職場霸凌匿名通報的事情，因為我知道從去年勞動部的事情發生之後，行政院其實動作也很快，馬上處理了一個霸凌通報的申訴平臺可以上線了，到現在看起來有一些案件都有列管追蹤，但是我想要講的是，其實有很多民眾跟我反映，他們希望還是有一個匿名通報的選項，因為他們當然會擔心被報復或者是在職場環境裡面有一些壓力，所以如果能匿名通報是最好的，也有民眾發現，其實在網頁裡面，如果用公務人員人事服務網的帳號方式可以技術性的匿名通報。","所以我在這邊是想要建議，如果已經在職場上面有遭受到霸凌的情況，或者是他們有一些壓力，想要藉此來讓自己受到保護，是不是有一個方式可以讓他們直接匿名通報，能反映這個霸凌的案件？是不是可以有這樣的管道呢？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們並不是匿名就完全丟掉不管，不是！他如果描述的內容非常明確的話，比如說某一個人他怎麼樣、怎麼樣的話，我們也會去了解跟調查，如果真的有這樣的情事，我們也是會處理，除非他又匿名、又沒有指名什麼樣的情況、又很模糊……"],["黃委員捷：就是不夠明確，不好調查。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，我們沒有辦法調查，重要的是能不能調查，如果可以調查，我們就會啟動調查。"],["黃委員捷：好，這就是我想要拜託的啦！當然我認為這個霸凌通報的申訴平臺要持續運作，然後也希望你們可以實質的列管追蹤，讓如果真的有受到任何不平的民眾，都可以受到你們的保障，好嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：是。"],["黃委員捷：最後我也講一點，其實剛剛最後秘書長也有提到你們性平業務的部分，我在這邊是希望可以督促你們性平業務的督導，因為大家也知道，最近臺灣各地都還是有發生一些性平事件，最著名的就是金門金城國中的一個老師，他命題的內容真的不堪入目，我一個字都不想再看。這個案件當然是屬於教育部的業管，但性平既然是我們政府非常重要的一個政策，我也知道性平處很努力，那這樣方面的業務督導，我們是不是也可以把這些正確的性平觀念布及到所有的政府機關裡面？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：會，我們會透過性平處，讓各部會理解跟了解必須要有的性平的注意。"],["黃委員捷：我認為這一次他們學校的懲處其實是非常不夠的，包括這個老師的言行已經這麼嚴重了，結果他只有停聘六個月，他的懲處就是停聘六個月而已，我相信大家看了都會覺得，對於在提升性平意識的作法都是不足夠的！所以我希望政院這邊也要拿出我們政府的態度、我們對於性平的重視，包括剛剛秘書長也有提到我們現在一些重點的性平業務，是不是可以再跟大家報告一下我們接下來的重點作法？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好，我請性平處處長簡要說明一下。"],["黃委員捷：好，請處長。"],["林代理處長秋君：謝謝委員，性平處這邊有性別平等綱領，每四年我們都有重要的性平推動的計畫重點，今（114）年已經是上一期的最後一年，所以我們會研發下一個年度的四年重點計畫，包括決策參與、提升女性經濟力、性別歧視這個部分的消除，還有人身安全的性別平等方面，我們有一個國家的行動計畫，這個都是我們未來很重要的推動方向，歧視的這塊確實是性別平等意識裡很需要再全面性提升的部分，所以也是我們未來很重要的推動方向，以上。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要拜託，然後也希望你們訂一些政策的時候，可以更細緻，這個是一定要的，好嗎？這個拜託處長，謝謝秘書長。"],["林代理處長秋君：謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：謝謝。","再來，我們請張宏陸召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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你們統三的補助款讓苗栗雲林基隆還有各縣市地方已經陷入財政危機你覺得是否有違法呢"},{"start":336.206,"end":342.931,"text":"沒有 我們一定會幫忙 地方如果有任何需要 中央一定會幫忙但是我剛才提到的這個636億 我們要依三讀大院的這個三讀預算 我們來辦理你說啊 三讀預算來辦理 但是剛才你又說什麼我們三讀通過 你自愛難行對 自愛難行黑白都是你說的 這一款 這一些補租款"},{"start":362.387,"end":374.496,"text":"就是大砍你們不是你們大砍地方但是你們不是先協商也不是先溝通而是就是在事業底匆匆忙忙發一個喊一通"},{"start":378.058,"end":387.361,"text":"一直就是通知地方說5月起就直接扣款這是哪一個國家的行政程序啊這是動作根本就是先砍再說這樣子在正常治理國家嗎而且你們就是程序正當性嗎完全是就是全砍"},{"start":399.502,"end":404.205,"text":"就是這樣子的各縣市經費不夠行政院你知道嗎所以說還有根本都不在乎我們地方的苦還有你們就是有進行的這樣子的影響評估嗎為什麼這樣子胡來是認為說不用對我們的人民交代嗎還有說我們民進黨全面執政時呢在2024年指三地方補助"},{"start":427.14,"end":429.604,"text":"款只有4%现在呢在野党监督就却大砍了27.3%这个什么标准啊双标嘛这是你们地方政府这样子的一个"},{"start":442.241,"end":461.249,"text":"這就是讓我們地方政府要有心理準備這個什麼什麼傲慢的邏輯啊 當鄉通治當鄉通治沒有達到共識啊這樣的結果就顯示出當初大筆一揮刪掉了939億那個是不適當的才會造成今天的結果"},{"start":462.612,"end":468.096,"text":"這個是你拿人民的血汗錢來去砍我們砍的是中央吃喝玩樂對不對但是我們最反感的是說你們高高招商就像現在那種態度所以呢我們行政院三讀通過你也說通過了三讀通過依法行政但是你們要無視立法院的決議還繼續違法扣款"},{"start":488.01,"end":493.492,"text":"這樣何時補足 何時補助當然我們要追查嘛 追問嘛 為什麼要提出臨時動議就是因為我們已經三讀通過 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謝謝主席各位長官 各位委員大家早有請龔明欣秘書長好 秦秘書長"},{"start":17.237,"end":45.979,"text":"張委員早 秘書長早首先還是要請教秘書長其實現在不管朝野的委員非常重視地方首長非常重視現在行政院把這個地方的一般性補助款給刪減了這地方的救命錢首先還是要跟秘書長報告立法院在114年度的通山決議案裡面他有寫說各項的項目要刪除特別民事要排除法律的義務支出所以一般性補助款不應該"},{"start":47.14,"end":60.488,"text":"在這次行政院刪除的對象裡面而且這次行政院把直轄市跟各縣市一般補助款的科目扣減了百分之將近27.3%用來彌補差額這個本席非常的遺憾因為這是要苦地方"},{"start":66.502,"end":93.931,"text":"那這是刪減了一些的衝擊包含一些教育補助、社會福利補助以及基本建設補助包含了兒少、婦女、長者、身心障礙者的福利都會受到影響尤其大家也非常關心行人安全、行道道路改善以及維護可能未來都會受到影響那我必須要跟秘書長講新北市有400多萬人全台灣最多人的地方行政跟建設的支出負擔沉重"},{"start":94.511,"end":123.332,"text":"中央這次減少27.3百分比的一般性補助款新北市少了30億今年的預算比去年還要少會影響到教育、社福跟景銷的建設預算讓地方政府沒有辦法落實到照顧民眾的責任所以想要先請教祕書長請問這個我們當時的通山明明就已經有特別民視要排除法律義務支出了那請教祕書長一般補助款在您認為是不是法律義務支出"},{"start":124.902,"end":147.616,"text":"報告委員我的想法跟你一樣也覺得對這件事情非常遺憾但是當這個中央總預算三讀通過的時候事實上行政院就第一時間就表達了你有來協商啊你有來協商可是當時有人請你趕快回去啊不是就是要我們自行刪減636億這麼額度大的情況之下"},{"start":150.598,"end":167.608,"text":"這是過去從沒有的是不是請秘書長回應我們要就法律面來自立法院你認為一般性補助款是不是法律義務支出據我了解它不是法律義務支出那我是不是請今天有來主計處的人嗎來請主計處因為我之前在那個主計長當時在"},{"start":176.978,"end":195.502,"text":"這個113年12月30號的時候那時候主計長有說這個114年的中央政府總預算稅出編列3兆1325億元為例依法其中依法法律預務項目包含各式人士各項機關人士費社會保險跟退府支出1兆8000多億元占58%均無法刪減這當時是這個主計長所提出來的"},{"start":203.084,"end":207.571,"text":"那就您而言你認為一般性補助款是不是法定義務支出來請回答"},{"start":209.564,"end":232.915,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們當初講的依法律支出其實是在我們在審預算的時候的過程當中先回應你覺得是不是在這個法律裡面是地制法跟財化法裡面是有規定說中央對財力較差的地方政府要給予卓於補助那所以他的法律確然有規定要補支出"},{"start":233.775,"end":261.297,"text":"可是它的補助的沒有補助的標準跟數額對 它已經預算書上有寫要補助多少錢地方政府也在花了請問這是不是法定一物之出來 請你回答法律有規定要多於補助可是就是說沒有規定說它編列的數額是要多少所以在大學編列的數額已經預算書上都有寫了現在是刪除了已經有刪除這些的預算了我只是請教你一般補助款是不是法定一物之出可不可以回答"},{"start":262.284,"end":276.888,"text":"他是我們在審預算過程當中我們在分類分四大類裡面我們為了審查預算我們有揮了一個叫依法律義務支出的一個所以你有回答是法律義務支出嗎是不是對是在審查預算過程當中好謝謝謝謝好所以秘書長好請秘書長所以秘書長"},{"start":280.79,"end":300.952,"text":"這個可能還是要跟你報告一下這就是法律義務之初依法不能來刪減所以請這個行政院好好去想一想是不是應該要來做這樣子的事那最後這個有關於這個議題我來請教一下卓榮派院長說地方政府可以用稅計剩餘來去補這個刪除的一個部分"},{"start":301.613,"end":329.038,"text":"可是地方首長也說很多縣市像新北市為例他現在沒有設計剩餘是還背負著非常多的累積虧損所以這個方法不可用那所以我要來請教一下現在很多地方首長非常不能建議我們全台灣的地方首長都非常不能接受這樣的做法有些首長提出將以提出溯源變跟中央追償這樣子的費用請問秘書長你有什麼看法是不是你有想說應該要懸崖勒馬來請回答"},{"start":330.925,"end":358.755,"text":"法委員我剛才提到的就是說當這個三讀通過的時候我們覺得自愛難行我們提出複議然後也被否決然後現在提出...否決你也照當時你來政黨協商的時候是誰否決你啊好請繼續那就是說我們按照立法院的決議就是自行調整這個636億那我們在這個自愛難行的情況下現在的方法...那自愛難行你有沒有考慮說當時你內心有想法有沒有考慮要追加預算"},{"start":360.35,"end":383.863,"text":"還是你就是想說要刪地方補助款你有沒有想說要最佳預算過 秘書長有嗎你當時來不就是想要你當時來市長協商的時候不是想要討論說最佳預算嗎那為什麼現在決定要刪地方補助款你的心境是什麼轉變的就算最佳預算也要行政院跟立法院有相互的溝通好所以行政院當時是想要最佳預算 是嗎"},{"start":386.073,"end":387.815,"text":"這個我已經沒有忘記了還是害怕想起來"},{"start":391.768,"end":420.471,"text":"好謝謝秘書長那我知道就希望說行政院還是要好好來有一些更好的解決方式啦好那第二個我要想問一下行政院過去的霸凌案去年不管勞動部跟行政院都有霸凌案那當時有三行政院我記得有三大霸凌案包含這個消保處公關處以及當時秘書處都有霸凌案那秘書處當時因為有來跟我解釋所以我相信現在沒有在調查中那我想然後公關處的部分因為處長"},{"start":421.372,"end":447.098,"text":"現在因為身體不適也調離職位那我想要請教有關於消保處跟公關處的部分現在調查情況如何因為當時我相信已經從年初到現在已經五個月了我們現在沒有看到任何的結果我們需要說霸凌是要零容忍的是不是可以簡單講一下說為什麼關於這些霸凌案現在都沒有相關的調查結果來請回答總共有四件"},{"start":447.978,"end":455.307,"text":"那其中一件成立,其他三件沒有成立?沒錯,就三件霸凌案嘛好,謝謝跟委員報告,剛剛講到消防處跟公關處的部分,我們從去年到今年一共只有四件霸凌案那霸凌案其實我們全部都已經處理完畢了"},{"start":468.542,"end":475.406,"text":"然後有三件案子他們都沒有提出申訴,只有一件霸凌不成立案子,現在再提到保訊會的再申訴。您的意思是說沒有調查的反而提出申訴,三件有成立的。不是,我們全部調查完畢,也提到我們的審議委員會裡面的,已經確定了。已經確定了,那資料?"},{"start":492.523,"end":507.736,"text":"好 我們事後再提供給委員好 謝謝最後還有一件有關於地方建設請秘書長回答我們中和有一個國道3號中和交流道的改善工程你知道這件事嗎14.91的計畫這個計畫在去年的113年4月3號可行性評估就已經出爐了也核准了"},{"start":513.641,"end":541.366,"text":"然後高空局在7月31號的時候建設計畫也送交到交通部那交通部在9月25號將本計畫交給行政院審查那國發會在113年的1月5號也送給行政院來審查意見結果本席在12月10號發函請行政院看說什麼時候可以核定因為當時我有質詢的時候有拜託不管是陳建仁院長或是左榮泰院長他們都回應我尤其是左榮泰院長回應我說在12月底"},{"start":541.886,"end":567.015,"text":"可是本席在12月10號發文只有得到一張公文說競速審查完成結果在今年的5月19再次發文回了我一模一樣內容一模一樣一字未改的文也說將競速完成那我要跟秘書講講說這個說到的話要算數我希望行政院可以加速整個期程那本席這邊我看見有沒有這個表"},{"start":568.195,"end":590.577,"text":"當時有個表也提出來說這工程規劃當時預計到達要完成的時間是在今年的上半年大概四月份左右現在已經五月份了已經延期了所以我希望說行政院秘書長這邊不要發給我永遠都是同樣的公文沒有任何的內容然後企圖說對地方的建設好像有所阻擋我覺得這是非常不好的狀況"},{"start":591.158,"end":614.23,"text":"那你要跟秘書長再快速報告一下其實工程規劃跟設計作業是可以加速進行的尤其現在已經拖到設計作業的時間了會讓整個尤其建築師設計規劃的時間會縮短這對地方的建設非常的不利這也跟行政院院長當時說要積極來處理是違背的是不是請秘書長回答是不是現在行政院這是什麼樣的原因我想先聽聽看你的意見"},{"start":615.131,"end":640.16,"text":"我想我們會按照那個回覆的文裡面兩次回覆都一模一樣的內容這都是你的章欸 你的章 關印欸你有看到這個內容嗎可以半年四個月回一樣的內容 一個字都沒有改我們盡速來辦所以要不要拜託地書長你要盡速來辦因為我這邊是有收到舉報啊說有人在故意在擋這樣子的地方建設的東西啊"},{"start":640.9,"end":656.57,"text":"我今天先不把人民給透露出來我希望秘書長回去既然都已經承諾了事情而且這個設計款大概才兩千多萬是一個不要去擋地方的建設就是說我們當然是需要說這個地方建設不分政黨大家一起來努力好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時32分）謝謝主席。各位長官、各位委員，大家早。有請龔明鑫秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：張委員早。"],["張委員智倫：秘書長早。首先要請教秘書長，現在不管朝野委員或地方首長，都非常重視行政院把地方一般性補助款刪減的這件事，這是地方的救命錢，所以還是要跟秘書長報告，立法院在114年度通刪決議案裡提到，各項目的刪除，都特別明示要排除法律義務支出，所以一般性補助款不應該是在這次行政院刪除的對象裡面。而且這次行政院把直轄市跟各縣市的一般補助款科目扣減將近27.3%用來彌補差額，讓本席非常遺憾，因為這是要苦地方，這次刪減的衝擊，包含一些教育補助、社會福利補助及基本建設補助，亦即兒少、婦女、長者、身心障礙者等的福利都會受到影響，尤其大家非常關心的行人安全、人行道路改善以及維護，未來可能也都會受到影響。","我必須跟秘書長講，新北市有四百多萬人，是全臺灣最多人的地方，行政跟建設支出負擔沉重，中央這次減少27.3%的一般性補助款，新北市少了30億，變成今年的預算比去年還少，影響到教育、社福跟警消的建設預算，致使地方政府沒有辦法落實照顧民眾的責任。當時通刪時明明就已經特別明示要排除法律義務支出，請教秘書長，您認為一般補助款是不是法律義務支出？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我的想法跟你一樣，也覺得這件事情非常遺憾，但是當中央總預算三讀通過時，事實上，行政院第一時間就表達了……"],["張委員智倫：有，你有來協商啊！你有來協商，可是……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：要我們自已刪636億……"],["張委員智倫：當時有人請你趕快回去啊！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：不是，就是要我們自行刪減636億，在額度這麼大的情況之下，這是過去從來沒有的，而且窒礙難行……"],["張委員智倫：是不是請秘書長就法律面回應立法院？你認為一般性補助款是不是法律義務支出？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：據我了解，它不是法律義務支出。"],["張委員智倫：不是法律義務支出？好，那我請主計總處的代表。"],["主席：請主計總處。"],["張委員智倫：113年12月30號時，我曾詢問過主計長，那時候主計長說114年中央政府總預算歲出編列3兆1,325億元，其中依法律義務項目，包含各機關人事費、社會保險跟退撫支出一兆八千多億元，占58%，均無法刪減。這是當時主計長提出來的，就你而言，你認為一般性補助款是不是法律義務支出？來，請回答。"],["吳專門委員銘修：跟委員報告，當初講的依法律義務，其實是我們在審預算的過程當中……"],["張委員智倫：先回應，你覺得是不是？"],["吳專門委員銘修：在地制法和財劃法裡面有規定，中央對財力較差的地方政府要酌予補助，所以法律雖然有規定要補助……"],["張委員智倫：它是不是法律義務支出？"],["吳專門委員銘修：可是這個補助沒有補助標準跟數額……"],["張委員智倫：對，但預算書上已經寫要補助多少錢，地方政府也花了，請問這是不是法律義務支出？來，請你回答。"],["吳專門委員銘修：法律有規定要酌予補助，可是沒有規定編列的數額要多少，所以在大院審查的預算還是有刪減的空間。"],["張委員智倫：編列的數額預算書上都已經有寫了啊！現在是已經要刪除這些預算，我只請教你，一般補助款是不是法律義務支出？可不可以回答？"],["吳專門委員銘修：審查預算的過程中，為了審查預算，我們有分四大類，而它是歸類到依法律義務支出的一個地方。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以你有回答是法律義務支出，是不是？"],["吳專門委員銘修：對，是在審查預算的過程當中。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝、謝謝。秘書長，可能還是要跟你報告一下，這就是法律義務支出，依法不能刪減，所以請行政院好好想一想是不是應該要做這樣的事。","另外，有關這個議題，我再請教一下，卓榮泰院長說地方政府可以用歲計賸餘來補刪除的部分，可是很多地方首長回應，以新北市為例，現在並沒有歲計賸餘，而是還背負著非常多的累計虧損，所以這個方法不可用。現在很多地方首長，其實是全臺灣的地方首長，都非常不能接受這樣的作法，有些首長表示將提出訴願，後續向中央追償這樣的費用，秘書長對此有什麼看法？你有想說應該要懸崖勒馬嗎？來，請回答。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我剛才提到的是，當這個三讀通過時，我們覺得窒礙難行而提出覆議，然後被否決，現在提出釋憲……"],["張委員智倫：否決？你也知道當時你來政黨協商的時候，是誰否決你啊！好，請繼續。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們按照立法院決議，自行調整這636億，我們在窒礙難行的情況下，現在的方法幾乎是唯一的方法……"],["張委員智倫：窒礙難行，那當時你內心的想法，有沒有考慮要追加預算？還是你就是想要刪地方補助款？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們已經提出覆議跟釋憲相關的救濟方法……"],["張委員智倫：你有沒有想過追加預算？秘書長，有嗎？當時你來政黨協商的時候，不就是想要討論追加預算嗎？為什麼現在決定刪地方補助款？你的心境是怎麼轉變的？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：就算追加預算，也要行政院跟立法院有相互溝通好……"],["張委員智倫：所以行政院當時是想要追加預算，是嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：這個我已經沒有、沒有那樣的記憶……"],["張委員智倫：忘記了？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對……"],["張委員智倫：忘記了，還是害怕想起來？好，謝謝秘書長，我知道了，我們希望行政院還是要有一些更好的解決方式。","第二個，我想請教行政院過去的相關霸凌案。去年不管勞動部或行政院都有霸凌案，我記得當時行政院有三大霸凌案，包含消保處、公關處及秘書處。秘書處當時有來跟我解釋，所以我相信現在沒有在調查中，而公關處的部分，處長因為身體不適調離職位，現在我想要請教有關於消保處跟公關處的部分，現在調查情況如何？從年初到現在已經5個月了，我們沒有看到任何結果，我們希望霸凌是零容忍的，所以請簡單說明，為什麼這些霸凌案到現在都沒有相關調查結果？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：有的，總共有4件，其中1件成立，其他3件沒有成立。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，就3件霸凌案。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：詳細的狀況，我請人事處處長說明。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["黃處長麗玲：跟委員報告，剛剛講到消保處跟公關處的部分，我們從去年到今年一共只有4件霸凌案，其實全部都已經處理完畢，有3件案子沒有提出申訴，只有1件霸凌不成立的案子現在提到保訓會的再申訴……"],["張委員智倫：你的意思是說沒有調查的反而提出申訴，3件有成立的……"],["黃處長麗玲：不是，我們全部調查完畢，也提到審議委員會，已經確定了。"],["張委員智倫：已經確定了？"],["黃處長麗玲：是。"],["張委員智倫：那資料……"],["黃處長麗玲：好，事後再把資料提供給委員。"],["張委員智倫：好，麻煩，謝謝。","最後還有一個問題要請秘書長回答，這是有關地方建設的。中和有一個國道三號中和交流道改善工程，你知道這件事嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我知道。"],["張委員智倫：這是14.9億的計畫，去年113年4月3號可行性評估報告就已經出爐了，也核准了，然後高公局在7月31號時把建設計畫送到交通部，交通部在9月25號將本計畫交給行政院審查，國發會在113年1月5號也送審查意見給行政院，結果本席在12月10號發函詢問行政院什麼時候可以核定，因為我在質詢時曾拜託過院長，不管是陳建仁院長還是卓榮泰院長，尤其是卓榮泰院長，他回應說12月底可以儘速核定。可是本席12月10號的發文只得到一張公文，表示「將儘速完成審定」；今年5月19日我再次發文，回了我內容一模一樣、一字未改的文，也說「將儘速完成審定」。我要跟秘書長說的是，說到的話要算數，希望行政院可以加速整個期程，當時也有個表提出來，明列這個工程規劃當時預計要完成的時間是在今年的上半年，大概是4月左右，現在是5月，已經延期了。所以我希望行政院秘書長不要發給我永遠都是同樣的公文，沒有任何的內容，然後企圖對地方的建設好像有所阻擋，我覺得這是非常不好的狀況。也要跟秘書長再快速地報告一下，其實工程規劃跟設計作業是可以加速進行的，尤其是現在已經拖到設計作業的時間了，會讓整個……尤其是建築師設計規劃的時間會縮短，這對地方的建設非常不利，這也跟行政院院長當時說要積極處理是違背的，是不是請秘書長回答？是不是現在行政院……這是什麼樣的原因？我想先聽聽看你的意見。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我想我們會按照回復的文裡面儘速來辦理。"],["張委員智倫：兩次都回復一模一樣的內容，這都是您的章、您的官印耶！您有看到這個內容嗎？可以半年、4個月回一樣的內容，一個字都沒有改。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們儘速來辦理，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：要拜託秘書長儘速辦理，因為我這邊有收到舉報，說有人故意在擋地方建設的東西……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：應該是沒有。"],["張委員智倫：我今天先不把人名給透露出來，希望秘書長回去……既然都是已經承諾的事情，而且這個設計款大概才二千多萬，是一個……不要去擋地方的建設。我們當然是希望地方建設不分政黨，大家一起來努力，好不好？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：我們請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我們是從來不會反對跟美國合作但是呢 我們合作的前提之下是必須要平等 互利 有底線而不是一昧的讓利 貴之配合我們回顧一下這幾年 美國是怎麼對待我們的我們開放萊豬"},{"start":93.371,"end":113.717,"text":"放寬農藥標準簽署了台美貿易倡議卻沒有任何一個保障條款我們接受了台灣學人法案允許美國的人進入到我們的政府體系你們最清楚然後我們將超過九成的外匯存底全部投入了美債"},{"start":115.297,"end":135.926,"text":"結果呢美國升息我們也吞下了賄損美國加徵關稅我們沒有得到減免也沒有任何一個經濟的保障或軍事的承諾現在我們行政院還想要不經過立法院就要成立主權基金請問一下"},{"start":137.427,"end":141.47,"text":"這個沒有骨氣的秘書長也藐視內政委員會的秘書長這些單方面的讓步讓美國再次偉大我們換到了什麼請您說清楚"},{"start":149.76,"end":172.703,"text":"報委 我們所有的施政方向一定是以台灣的國家利益為重我們換到了什麼 講清楚你不要用這些不明不白的語調在這邊欺騙我們所有的國百姓事實數據證明從2016年開始台美之間的合作非常的好台灣的經濟也創了歷史上非常高的很好的成績出來閉嘴 看一下"},{"start":173.484,"end":189.43,"text":"我剛剛所說的這些東西都是最近這幾年發生的事情所有的人民百姓都記得非常的清楚我要再講的是台灣如果真的要成為全球的所謂的供應鏈的關鍵就應該要有什麼要有骨氣要有原則要有自己的主張而不是成為任何一個人予取予求的第51週"},{"start":201.494,"end":210.482,"text":"我們看看新加坡看看日本他們對美國也有壓力啊但是呢人家是怎麼樣捍衛他們的國家立場而你們呢我們的國家官員呢既然高喊要讓別人再次偉大台灣要強大不是靠討好美國啦是要靠守住我們人民的利益跟尊嚴"},{"start":228.53,"end":238.743,"text":"我真的毫不客氣的說你們對外卑躬屈膝但是你們對內對自己的人卻是非常的囂張跋扈請問秘書長你知道49天是什麼意思嗎49天對你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":245.674,"end":263.769,"text":"這是行政院違法掃編禁法補償預算然後在我們在野黨團強力的監督之下被迫就承認了他的錯誤白紙黑字承諾要追加預算的天數"},{"start":265.325,"end":293.803,"text":"剛好49天所以呢你們寧可拖延總預算審查也不願再次面對原住民最基本的補償這一意思對吧1月10號的時候你們再次書面承諾看一下你們承諾會追加預算而人民會呢也在3月10號依法提出了23.9億元的申請請問秘書長目前追加預算的進度怎麼樣我今天就要解凍你的預算"},{"start":295.243,"end":313.91,"text":"我們是盡量當然就是說我剛才已經說明了就是說進化補償從每公頃3萬塊變成6萬塊那我們事實上原民會也盡力的編定了28億什麼叫盡力了依法要編多少你們只編一半"},{"start":315.05,"end":335.075,"text":"你們只編3萬塊另外的3萬塊不見了所以才會有今天49天然後今天才會再凍結你的預算所以今天才會有所需的經費要採追加預算方式辦理請問一下你們追加預算簽了嗎 園民會已經送到行政院了"},{"start":336.202,"end":358.194,"text":"我想最重要還是說讓原民可以得到一公頃六萬塊這個市值我們會盡量做好這件事情請再看所需經費彩追加預算方式辦理追加預算方式辦理黑紙白白紙黑字在這裡你們現在不敢講了是不是為什麼因為你們曾經對其他的立法委員說這位立法委員就是張志倫委員"},{"start":365.538,"end":371.489,"text":"你們說因為憲法訴訟進行所以不可以追加請問一下行政院有提證實處分嗎"},{"start":373.755,"end":402.633,"text":"有嗎我們已經提出釋憲你們有提暫時處分嗎提出釋憲釋憲跟暫時處分是兩回事情根據憲法訴訟法的第43條只有大法官核定暫時處分才能夠暫停預算的執行你們也根本沒有申請啊然後你們卻對張志倫委員說要凍結預算所以沒有辦法追加你們這個不是依法行政你們是欺騙啊你們是霸凌啊"},{"start":403.473,"end":417.916,"text":"按照你們的說法,是不是現在立法院所有的九條案都毫無意義了呢?因為沒有任何的法律效率更離譜的是,你們是違法在先現在卻還敢裝自己是受害人,二人限告狀請問一下,你們有跟大法官承認你們掃邊禁法補償的預算嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":426.601,"end":444.691,"text":"我們提的事件有很多很多的理由啦你們沒有依法編足啊在立法院經法補償一公頃六萬塊是法律先通過的啊根本你們沒有依法編足啊你們眼裡面還有法律嗎再來你們報告說基金還有45億"},{"start":446.392,"end":469.283,"text":"就在上週我在這裡 所有的內政委員都在原民會主委就說 基金的現金只剩下14.6億他也說基金不夠 恐怕會影響所有的業務然後他更擔心的是基金破產好在本席提了一個拯救基金的法案 他也非常的支持"},{"start":470.163,"end":483.949,"text":"我相信國人都看得非常的清楚你們行政院對外是逢迎對內是傲慢對原住民是毫無重視連原民會的困境你們都視而不見"},{"start":486.891,"end":492.035,"text":"進訪補償到現在已經拖延了201天了行政院你們不僅僅是失職你們還企圖賴賬23點就9億元從哪裡領從哪裡領追加預算方式追加預算方式還有什麼方式你說你說一個 再說一個嘛"},{"start":511.773,"end":523.003,"text":"你們剛才提到的基金先撥補然後我們再撥補基金是一種方式基金只是要多少啦你要讓基金破產嗎你要讓基金的錢都沒有用到別的地方去嗎不會破產不會你們行政院怎麼可以這麼二把這麼說謊明明的白紙黑字要用追加預算方式辦理你們卻不要你們這是違法亂紀我今天決定要再繼續凍結你們的預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（9時23分）謝謝。有請藐視內政委員會的龔秘書長。"],["主席：請龔秘書長。"],["高金委員素梅：龔秘書長，您如果沒有跟內政委員會的委員道歉，「藐視」這兩個字會永遠跟隨你喔！","5月的時候，你出席駐美代表處的歡迎酒會，你知道你說了什麼嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我說了很多事情，我不曉得你指哪一個、哪一件事情？"],["高金委員素梅：你說臺美合作可以促成美國再次的偉大，這句話我認為不僅僅是失言，更是嚴重的國格矮化。「讓美國再次偉大」是川普他的選戰口號，您是中華民國的官員，不是美國競選團隊的發言人啊！請問你講這句話的時候，是代表你個人還是代表國家的利益？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：因為臺美合作不僅會美國再次偉大，也會幫助臺灣壯大，這是互相互利的。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道美國再次偉大是剝削全世界、剝削臺灣人民嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：臺美的合作不會這樣。"],["高金委員素梅：我告訴你啦，我們是從來不會反對跟美國合作，但是我們合作的前提之下，是必須要平等、互利、有底線，而不是一昧地讓利、跪姿配合。我們回顧一下這幾年美國是怎麼對待我們的：我們開放萊豬，放寬農藥標準，簽署了臺美貿易倡議，卻沒有任何一個保障條款；我們接受了臺灣學人法案，允許美國的人進入到我們的政府體系，你們最清楚；然後我們將超過九成的外匯存底全部投入了美債，結果呢？美國升息，我們也吞下了匯損；美國加徵關稅，我們沒有得到減免，也沒有任何一個經濟的保障或軍事的承諾；現在我們行政院還想要不經過立法院，就要成立主權基金。請問一下沒有骨氣的秘書長，也藐視內政委員會的秘書長，這些單方面的讓步讓美國再次偉大，我們換到了什麼？請你說清楚！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我們所有的施政方向一定是以臺灣的國家利益為重，產業發展……"],["高金委員素梅：我們換到了什麼？講清楚！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：從過去到現在……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要用這些不明不白的語調在那邊欺騙我們所有的全國百姓。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：事實、數據證明，從2016年開始，臺美之間的合作非常地好，臺灣的經濟也創了歷史上非常高的、很好的成績出來……"],["高金委員素梅：閉嘴！看一下，我剛剛所說的這些東西都是最近這幾年發生的事情，所有的人民、百姓都記得非常地清楚。我要再講的是，臺灣如果真的要成為全球所謂供應鏈的關鍵，就應該要有什麼？要有骨氣、要有原則、要有自己的主張，而不是成為任何一個人予取予求的第51州！我們看看新加坡、看看日本，他們對美國也有壓力，但是人家是怎麼樣捍衛他們的國家立場，而你們呢？我們的國家官員竟然高喊要讓別人再次偉大。臺灣要強大，不是靠討好美國，是要靠守住我們人民的利益跟尊嚴！我真的毫不客氣地說，你們對外卑躬屈膝，但是你們對內、對自己的人卻是非常地囂張跋扈。請問秘書長，你知道49天是什麼意思嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：49天？"],["高金委員素梅：對，你知道嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：不知道。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這是行政院違法少編列禁伐補償預算，然後在我們在野黨團強力的監督之下，被迫承認了錯誤，白紙黑字承諾要追加預算的天數，剛好49天。所以你們寧可拖延總預算審查，也不願再次面對原住民最基本的補償正義，對吧？1月10日的時候，你們再次書面承諾，看一下，你們承諾會追加預算，而原民會也在3月10日依法提出了23.9億元的申請。請問秘書長，目前追加預算的進度怎麼樣？我今天就要解凍你的預算。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：對，我們是儘量……"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下現在的……"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我剛才已經說明了，就是禁伐補償從每公頃3萬元變成6萬元，事實上原民會也盡力了，編訂了28億元，當然還有……"],["高金委員素梅：什麼叫盡力了？依法要編多少？你們只編一半，你們只編3萬元，另外的3萬元不見了，所以才會有49天，然後才會凍結你的預算，所以今天才會有所需的經費要採追加預算方式辦理。請問一下，你們追加預算簽了嗎？原民會已經送到行政院了。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：報告委員，我想最重要還是讓原民可以得到1公頃6萬元這個事實，我們會儘量做好這件事情。"],["高金委員素梅：請再看，所需經費採追加預算方式辦理，「追加預算方式辦理」白紙黑字在這裡，你們現在不敢講了，是不是？為什麼？因為你們曾經對其他的立法委員說，這位立法委員就是張智倫委員，你們說因為憲法訴訟進行，所以不可以追加。請問一下，行政院有提暫時處分嗎？有嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們已經提出釋憲。"],["高金委員素梅：你們有提暫時處分嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：提出釋憲。"],["高金委員素梅：釋憲跟暫時處分是兩回事情。根據憲法訴訟法第四十三條，只有大法官核定暫時處分，才能夠暫停預算的執行，你們也根本沒有申請啊，然後你們卻對張智倫委員說凍結預算，所以沒有辦法追加，你們這個不是依法行政的，你們是欺騙、你們是霸凌啊！按照你們的說法，是不是現在立法院所有的解凍案都毫無意義了呢？因為沒有任何的法律效力。更離譜的是，你們是違法在先，現在卻還敢裝自己是受害人，惡人先告狀！請問一下，你們有跟大法官承認你們少編禁伐補償的預算嗎？有嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們提了釋憲，有很多、很多的理由啦。"],["高金委員素梅：你們沒有依法編足啊！在立法院禁伐補償1公頃6萬元是法律先通過的，根本你們沒有依法編足啊！你們眼裡面還有法律嗎？","再來，你們報告說基金還有45億，就在上週我在這裡，所有的內政委員都在，原民會主委就說基金的現金只剩下14.6億，他也說基金不夠，恐怕會影響所有的業務，然後他更擔心的是基金破產，好在本席提了一個拯救基金的法案，他也非常地支持。我相信國人都看得非常地清楚，你們行政院對外是逢迎、對內是傲慢、對原住民是毫無重視，連原民會的困境，你們都視而不見，禁伐補償到現在已經拖延了201天了，行政院你們不僅僅是失職，你們還企圖賴帳！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：不會。"],["高金委員素梅：23.9億元！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：9月份該領6萬元的都會領到。"],["高金委員素梅：從哪裡領？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：都會領到。"],["高金委員素梅：從哪裡領？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們儘量會協助他……"],["高金委員素梅：從哪裡領？追加預算方式。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：有很多方式。"],["高金委員素梅：還有什麼方式，你說。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：很多、很多。"],["高金委員素梅：你說一個。"],["龔秘書長明鑫：可以拿到……"],["高金委員素梅：再說一個嘛！"],["龔秘書長明鑫：您剛才提到的，基金先撥補，然後我們再撥補基金是一種方式。"],["高金委員素梅：基金只剩下多少，你要讓基金破產嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：我們會撥補基金啊！"],["高金委員素梅：你要讓基金的錢都沒有用到別的地方去嗎？"],["龔秘書長明鑫：不會破產，不會！"],["高金委員素梅：行政院怎麼可以這麼鴨霸、這麼說謊？明明白紙黑字，要用追加預算方式辦理，你們卻不要！你們這是違法亂紀！我今天絕對會再繼續凍結你們的預算！"],["主席：請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-22","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","高金素梅","黃捷","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張智倫","丁學忠","許宇甄","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我可以相信城鄉有差距非山非市這個部分我想這個部分上都需要給予更多的資源 我都支持但是你不能否認市區的確有一些孩子他們有可能也是有一些資源上的落差"},{"start":264.932,"end":283.902,"text":"那所以在這個部分上我也希望說市區有弱勢的孩子我們也都有去看這些事辦的國中有去了解孩子他目前的這些相關生活標準的相關的一些生活是不是需要給予一些幫助基本上老師都有做第一線的去做"},{"start":284.502,"end":304.176,"text":"跟我們報告那個大方向我們是樂意來支持的就是說比較詳細的那個推動是不是容我請這個署長跟這個台中市教育局我們這個來進一步的磋商啦好不好但是我們希望整體的這個目標不要改變就是持續的續辦"},{"start":305.777,"end":322.02,"text":"第二個想跟請問像今天很多的委員都在詢問也都很關切川普將暫停外國學生簽證面談將審查申請人的一個社群帳號這件事情看起來好像是屬實啊您有掌握嗎教育部"},{"start":323.92,"end":339.867,"text":"我們確實是從這個相關的一些報導我們也做了一些因應的措施那目前對於這個社群媒體的審查標準不明那教育部是否已經有主動發布提醒協助我們相關的學生的權益呢"},{"start":342.97,"end":357.37,"text":"我們已經透過駐外單位我們的教育組提醒我們在美國的留學生要注意相關的訊息以及對於當地國的法令必須要遵守"},{"start":358.411,"end":384.893,"text":"我想針對這個台灣高等教育的國際化佈局以及現階段已就讀跟即將入學哈佛的學生教育部有沒有應變的措施協助學生多元的選擇留學的一個國家並強化與其他國家的學術合作這也是我們很關切的面對這一個危機能不能變成轉機這部分教育部能不能加強去部署這部分我希望部長您覺得呢"},{"start":385.746,"end":412.379,"text":"是的我想我們確實因應這個川普政府對這個美國高等教育他有一些不一樣的一些這個期待那我們也確實也利用這個裡面看到可能有一些優秀的事實上的一個流動怎麼樣能夠有機會來到台灣為台灣培養這個人才那另外還有一個來自於本國的這些留學生怎麼樣一些"},{"start":415.475,"end":432.128,"text":"這個學習權益上的一些照顧包含這個來自於全世界到這個哈佛大學讀書的或者其他學校他們願意轉到台灣來我想這都是我們在積極在努力的我想這個應變措施後續的資料可不可以給我們一下"},{"start":434.059,"end":462.926,"text":"可以的可以嗎有準備嗎可以可以可以沒有問題好那我們想了解一下那第三個想跟你請問一下就是高中校園的手機納管教育部21日預告高級中等學校以下學校犧牲攜帶的行動載具到校管理的一個原則草案其中高中訂定的管理規範應邀集教師家長學生各代表召開會議共同探討管理的一個機制"},{"start":464.026,"end":478.26,"text":"請問教育部在制定高中校園手機管理的政策時是否參考國際間的相關經驗跟研究成果這些國家怎麼做國際經驗在台灣推動有什麼幫助這部分你有掌握嗎"},{"start":479.099,"end":497.902,"text":"跟我們報告,確實這一個手機的管理,我們從學理、國際的研究,包括台灣衛護部的資料,我們確實覺得國外有許多的這些對學生學習,怎麼樣創造一個更好的環境,包含手機的管理。"},{"start":498.402,"end":526.383,"text":"我想這是我們整個團隊用了將近一年的時間來做一個從學理到實務的規劃所以剛才有委員特別提到所以我們在這個整個管理的一個辦法裡面不是一個叫做集中管理一句話就解決並不是這樣的我們連這個怎麼樣保管的機制都有四種選項也希望讓學生能夠跟家長跟老師有充分的一個討論完在"},{"start":527.964,"end":550.704,"text":"形成一個學校的一個好這是我要說的原本高中的各校就有自己的使用原則現在草案一出來看起來偏向逐步趨延但是在這個背景下會不會變成統一納管這部分我想說的是草案說應邀集教師家長學生各方代表召開會議請問學生的代表要怎麼產生"},{"start":553.018,"end":556.928,"text":"延伸代表這一個部分我們還是讓學校裡面他們"},{"start":558.928,"end":586.644,"text":"有一個透過一個民主化的過程來討論然後讓學生看由學生自己來領選或者各班派代表或者這個部分我們事實上比較細節的部分我們是尊重這一個學校但我要講的是說草案雖然規定學校討論手機管理的時候學生代表應戰委員會三分之一但最終決策仍需校務會議通過而校務會議學生的代表比例僅有8%"},{"start":588.385,"end":615.088,"text":"部長如何確保校務會議上學生在決策過程中有實質參與這部分是不是也應該要幫忙協助所以不是只是在探討草案校務會議也是很重要的決策過程現在比較令人擔心的是關於共識怎麼產生產生的過程有沒有符合民主機制而不是我們直接說要民主機制可是你看校務會議校務會議最後才可以通過"},{"start":616.349,"end":639.863,"text":"是 我想校園民主化這本來就是我們基本的一個精神啦所以通常我也相信我們第一線上的校長或者老師當一個前面的一些共識管理的方式已經有一個共識提校務會議的時候除非它的過程裡面有一些缺乏這個正當性不然所以你的意思是校務會議要尊重"},{"start":641.604,"end":662.775,"text":"這個所謂的共識就是我們的我們基本上的精神也是朝那個方向所以共識如果產生校務會議應該尊重是那好這是你說的喔在草案中我們看到學生的申訴就計的一個機制就是向本校圈圈處市學生申訴評議委員會提起申訴請問部長"},{"start":664.016,"end":692.139,"text":"學生申訴與救濟的機制將如何落實教育部是否有上級的申訴管道避免學校校內的自我審查產生不公有沒有考慮上級的申訴管道委員這個申訴管道這個建制是透過現行既已建制的那個程序所以它是既有的程序所以我們這樣嫁接之後它是在合法的基礎上來運作申訴它的流程"},{"start":693.752,"end":717.728,"text":"所以這部分我還是要提醒讓他們能夠保有更彈性的一個申訴管道因為基本上我們就怕在校園校內自我審查的時候有這些不公或者是畢竟是在學校內大家作為老師上也有一些不方便不好意思的可能性都有產生這個在申訴的過程可能會受理或者是過程會讓人家有疑義"},{"start":718.989,"end":735.356,"text":"這個部分我們都希望能夠盡量的公開透明甚至有上級的申訴管道我希望政策在推動的過程共識是經過民主機制討論出來而不是教師家長來做決定那當然我們也相信在這個利益良善的一個政策上"},{"start":735.996,"end":749.672,"text":"如何落實這也是很大的一個智慧尤其老師也很擔憂他們在落實的過程會不會遇到更多的一些困境我們也要關注老師的這個部分的權益這個部分我要再一次的提醒部長"},{"start":751.313,"end":776.657,"text":"四個我想跟你請問一下部長討論新北市三峽北大國小所發生的重大車禍案這起車禍不僅暴露了這個學區周邊道路設計管理的一個重大缺失更凸顯學生這個通學的安全能有極大的改善空間部長教育部對於全國學校通學步道的安全現況有何掌握現階段的一個具體數據跟檢討有嗎"},{"start":782.905,"end":808.833,"text":"我們之前有基金會去年12月針對六都19所學校抽驗檢查都不及格檢核的平均分數是33.79分請問部長教育部如何在中央其他的部會交通部內政部地方政府合作強化學區的周邊交通安全教育部應不應該也幫忙一起來處理"},{"start":809.793,"end":835.962,"text":"各位回報兩點 第一點是剛才部長有講過跟內政部警政署一直都有合作來盤點比較危險的學校會檢送給內政部內政部也會跟當地的地區警員或相關的機制有一個網絡來處理第二點是有關通學步道部分跟內政部國土署有一個長年期的計畫國土署會就學校周邊跟延伸至社區有一些通學步道的設置跟補助"},{"start":837.263,"end":854.081,"text":"這點我們會給您你講這個我都知道啦但是現階段去年12月這個基金會六都19所學校平均33.79分全數都不及格所以可以顯現過往這些跨部位的成效有限今天召委站起來召委最後一分鐘"},{"start":855.302,"end":882.971,"text":"我們看到這些成效是有限所以財會基金會評比這麼差我今天就要講根據屏東縣教育產業工會的公文指出導護制度與接送區域的規劃畏懼一致性強制性各校執行成效不一以及交通安全的教育宣導不足學童家長自我防護合作意識代加強"},{"start":884.031,"end":909.26,"text":"部長這一個公文你認不認同我想各個學校裡面確實它有它的差異性我們怎麼樣去共同從中央到地方跨部會跨級處來合作讓學童有一個更好的一個上放學更安全的一個環境我想我們來努力很多要改善啦部長"},{"start":910.04,"end":923.248,"text":"教師導護一直是台灣中小學常見的校園安全工作但是教師本身就非專業的交通指揮人員面對複雜的交通狀況教師導護還要面臨安全風險你們政治也說"},{"start":924.605,"end":940.405,"text":"我們現階段就呼籲交通導護不是老師的業務有關教師導護的政策特別是站在降低教師應執行導護發生意外之風險相關責任爭議上教師導護的政策有沒有重新思考其必要性空間"},{"start":942.213,"end":960.587,"text":"部長我想我們這個部分我們會繼續來努力教師的主要責任就是教學輔導學生他沒有受過專業的訓練交通指揮不是說我們不支持但是教師畢竟不是警察也沒有公權力然後仍然要教師來導護那應該給予什麼樣的訓練給予什麼樣的保障"},{"start":964.91,"end":988.127,"text":"你要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草你要馬兒能夠去做這樣子的一個服務但是你卻沒有給予相關的支持這是我要提出的啊所以這份公文我們再一次的呼籲教育部應該重視這樣的問題我們不是反對他們去而是給予該強度的支持協助他們的權益這部分應該要做到部長"},{"start":988.948,"end":1005.202,"text":"拖很久了希望你能夠有所突破我想我們這一個部分我們會跟地方一起來合作來努力那幾個月內可以努力完有一個成果這個他確實有各地方的一個這個社區都會區跟那什麼時候要溝通什麼時候要溝通溝通會議內容什麼時候給我們我們兩個月內兩個月內"},{"start":1013.686,"end":1031.437,"text":"希望我等得到這個部分不要說超過了兩個月又再一次兩個月再一次兩個月上一次就跟你講了正式在講說這個部分他也是覺得交通導護有疑義講到現在我都還沒有等到相關的一些具體改善"},{"start":1032.966,"end":1055.627,"text":"對不起這一個我不曉得我們業次當時有承諾委員那我想我們行政上我們他現在署長給我的訊息是他還沒有520還沒進來之前他事實上他有這樣的一個主張那當然我想我們在整個政策裡面我們全面來了解好啦一年過了又一年真的要做啦好不好拜託拜託"},{"start":1058.901,"end":1063.296,"text":"谢谢罗廷伟委员的咨询官员请回座我们接下来休息五分钟"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時38分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長辛苦了。部長，你還記得「夜光天使」嗎？還記得嗎？沒關係，不記得可以講，我不會考試。慢慢來，我等你沒關係。"],["鄭部長英耀：幫忙做課後輔導到晚上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，聲音可能要大聲一點，麥克風可能沒有對到。97年9月起，「夜光天使點燈專案計畫」將課後照顧延伸至夜間，我們在國小推動。目前我們一直在延伸，去年5月27日部長就職沒多久，我也向你爭取，要試辦延伸至國中夜間、國小寒暑假，那時候也非常感謝你承諾持續幫我們，臺中市也變成第一個試辦。目前正在試辦期間，從113年7月1日到114年7月31日，共試辦了3所國中、1所國小：育英、四育、東峰以及樂業國小，試辦的狀況都不錯，我們也稍微詢問了他們的試辦意願、願不願意續辦。部長，我想請問您一下，是否願意支持夜光天使繼續試辦延伸至國中夜間的教育政策？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心國中生的學習成長空間。根據委員剛剛所提的，我們除了感謝委員的關心外，在成效上，學校也認為有一定的效益，所以國教署會跟臺中市政府研討後續怎麼樣讓這項計畫能夠繼續、延續。"],["羅委員廷瑋：首次對國中夜間試辦就獲得不錯的評價，不只是家長端、學生端，在教師、學校這個部分我們也有詢問。基本上，第一，我們問到的3所國中都有意願續辦，這一點我要先代他們轉達。國小部分，雖然校方說沒有需求，但我也要跟您報告，因為國小有夜間課後照顧，可能也是因為在市區，資源豐富。國中部分則因為孩子在成長的過程需要更多關切，所以3所國中都說OK。","第二，我們也詢問教育局，因為有部分經費地方要自籌嘛！結果教育局也有意願繼續編列這樣的預算。所以我才要特別再向您拜託，每一位學生都不可放棄，這是教育的宗旨。試辦計畫初步成果顯示對於弱勢國中生的情感支持、學習自信、生活照顧有明顯的助益，而且能夠減輕家庭的負擔。所以未來若能有穩定的經費與師資，並加強學業的輔導，有望進一步縮小學習落差。我想脫貧是成長過程中很漫長的一條路，而教育顯然是公平的途徑，讓莘莘學子在教育制度的建置之下有向上流動的機會，我希望您能夠繼續支持，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。關於夜光天使計畫，委員當時所提出來的主要是針對偏鄉或非山、非市的這些國中，其資源相對於市區確實比較少。所以對於那個目標、那個方向，我們會繼續支持，國教署會跟臺中市教育局研討，看看怎麼樣持續支持這樣的計畫。對國中生課後、放學後，包括到晚上提供更多照顧，確實能夠彌補偏鄉跟非山、非市學校資源相對不足的情況，我想我們可以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我可以相信城鄉有差距、對於非山、非市學校都需要給予更多資源，我都支持，但是你不能否認市區的確有一些孩子也可能有資源上的落差。所以針對這個部分，我也希望對於市區弱勢孩子……我們也都去看了這些試辦國中，去了解孩子目前的生活等相關標準以及生活上是不是需要給予一些幫助，基本上，老師都在第一線做了解。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，那個大方向我們是樂意支持的，只是比較詳細的推動規劃是不是容我請署長跟臺中市教育局……"],["羅委員廷瑋：進一步地磋商好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我希望整體目標不要改變。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會朝支持……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是要續辦啦！","第二點我想請問你，就像今天很多位委員都詢問、也都很關切的，川普將暫停外國學生簽證面談，並將審查申請人的社群帳號，這件事情看起來好像屬實，您和教育部有掌握嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們確實是從相關報導得知，也做了一些因應措施。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前美方對於社群媒體的審查標準不明，教育部是否已經主動發布提醒，協助相關學生注意權益呢？"],["李司長毓娟：我們已經透過駐外單位教育組提醒在美國的留學生注意相關訊息，以及必須遵守當地國的法令。"],["羅委員廷瑋：針對臺灣高等教育的國際化布局，以及現階段已就讀與即將入學哈佛的學生，教育部有沒有應變措施協助學生多元選擇留學國家？並強化與其他國家的學術合作？這也是我們很關切的。面對這個危機能不能變成轉機、教育部能不能加強部署這個部分，部長，您覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：因應川普政府對美國高等教育確實有一些不一樣的期待，我們也利用這個機會看到可能有優秀師資流動，同時關注怎麼樣有機會來到臺灣、為臺灣培養人才。另外，對於本國留學生學習權益上的照顧，也包含讓來自全世界到哈佛大學或其他學校讀書者願意轉到臺灣來，這些都是我們在積極努力的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：應變措施的後續資料可不可以給我們？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以嗎？有準備嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們想了解一下。","第三個想跟你請問一下的是高中校園手機納管問題。教育部在21日預告高級中等以下學校學生攜帶行動載具到校管理原則草案，其中高中訂定管理規範時應邀集教師、家長、學生各方代表召開會議，共同探討管理機制。請問教育部在制定高中校園手機管理政策時，是否參考國際間相關經驗跟研究成果？這些國家怎麼做？國際經驗在臺灣推動有什麼幫助？這部分你有掌握嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，針對手機的管理，從學理、國際研究、也包括我們臺灣衛福部的許多data來看，我們確實覺得國外有許多做法是針對怎麼為學生學習創造更好的環境，包含手機的管理在內，而且我們的團隊用了將近一年的時間，做出從學理到實務的規劃。剛才也有委員特別提到，所以整個管理辦法不是以集中管理一句話就解決，並不是這樣的！我們連怎麼樣保管的機制都有4種選項，也希望讓學生跟家長、老師充分討論完，再形成學校的保管原則。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這就是我要說的。原本高中各校就有自己的使用原則，現在草案一出來，看起來偏向逐步趨嚴，在這個背景下，會不會變成統一納管？針對這部分，草案提到應邀集教師、家長、學生各方代表召開會議，請問學生代表要怎麼產生？"],["鄭部長英耀：對於學生代表這個部分，我們還是讓學校透過民主化的過程討論，看是要由學生自己遴選或由各班派代表等等。比較細節的部份，我們尊重學校。"],["羅委員廷瑋：草案雖然規定學校討論手機管理的時候，學生代表應占委員會的1/3，但最終決策仍須經校務會議通過，而校務會議的學生代表比例僅有8%！部長，如何確保校務會議上，學生在決策過程中能實質參與？這部分是不是也應該幫忙、協助？所以不只是探討草案，校務會議也是很重要的決策過程啊！現在比較令人擔心的是共識怎麼產生？產生的過程是否符合民主機制？而不是直接說要民主機制，卻還有校務會議，最後還是校務會議才可以通過！那怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長英耀：校園民主化本來就是基本精神啦！我也相信在第一線上的校長或老師，對於管理方式已經有全面共識提報校務會議的時候，除非過程裡有一些缺乏正當性的情況，不然校務會議基本上就會尊重……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你的意思是校務會議要尊重所謂的共識？"],["鄭部長英耀：這是我們的基本精神，我們也朝那個方向，有共識以後……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以共識如果產生，校務會議應該尊重？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這是你說的喔！","在草案中，我們看到學生的申訴救濟機制就是「向本校○○處／室學生申訴評議委員會提起申訴」，請問部長，學生申訴與救濟機制將如何落實？教育部是否有上級申訴管道，以避免校內自我審查產生不公？有沒有考慮設置上級申訴管道？"],["彭署長富源：委員，申訴管道的建置是透過現行既已建置的程序，是既有程序，所以這樣嫁接之後，是在合法的基礎上運作申訴流程。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。這部分我還是要提醒啦！要讓他們保有更彈性的申訴管道。我們基本上就怕校內自我審查時涉及不公，畢竟是在學校內！大家因為都身為老師，也有一些不方便、不好意思的可能性，且在申訴過程中，包括受理在內，都可能讓人家產生疑義。為因應這些部分，我都希望能夠儘量公開、透明，甚至有上級申訴管道。","在政策的推動過程中，共識是經過民主機制討論出來的，而不是由教師、家長做決定。當然，我們也相信這個政策立意良善，但如何落實要有很大的智慧，尤其老師也很擔憂他們在落實的過程中會不會遇到更多困境？所以也要關注老師的權益，這個部分我要再一次提醒部長。","第四，我想跟部長討論新北市三峽北大國小旁所發生的重大車禍案。這起車禍不僅暴露學區周邊道路設計與管理的重大缺失，更凸顯學生通學的安全仍有極大改善空間。部長，教育部對於全國學校通學步道的安全現況有何掌握？現階段的具體數據跟檢討有嗎？"],["彭署長富源：報告委員，我們是否可於會後、大概今天之內跟您回報？"],["羅委員廷瑋：去年12月有基金會針對六都19所學校抽驗檢查，結果都不及格，檢核的平均分數是33.79分。請問部長，教育部如何與中央其他部會──交通部、內政部及地方政府合作，強化學區周邊的交通安全？教育部應不應該也幫忙、一起處理？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員回報兩點：第一點剛才部長講過，我們跟內政部警政署一直都合作盤點，對於比較危險的學校會檢送給內政部，內政部也會跟當地的地區警員或以相關機制、網絡處理。第二點是針對通學步道部分，我們跟內政部國土署有一項長年期計畫，國土署會就學校周邊跟一些延伸至社區的通學步道規劃設置跟補助，這點我們會提供資料給您。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你講這些我都知道啦！但是就現階段而言，去年12月該基金會針對六都19所學校抽驗，平均33.79分，全數都不及格，可以顯現過往這些跨部會措施成效有限……召委站起來了！召委，再給我最後1分鐘。我們看到就是因為這些措施成效有限，基金會評比結果才會這麼差。","根據屏東縣教育產業公會的公文指出，保護制度與接送區域的規劃未具一致性、強制性，各校執行成效不一，以及交通安全的教育宣導不足，學童、家長自我防護、合作意識待加強。部長，這個公文你認不認同？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想各個學校之間確實有其差異性，怎麼共同從中央到地方、跨部會、跨局處合作，讓學童有更好、更安全的上、放學環境，我們來努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有很多要改善啊！部長，教師導護一直是臺灣中小學常見的校園安全工作人員，但是教師本身就非專業交通指揮人員，面對複雜的交通狀況，教師導護還要面臨安全風險，你們政次也說現階段就呼籲交通導護不是老師的業務啊！關於教師導護的政策，特別是在降低教師因執行導護發生意外風險相關責任的爭議上，教師導護政策有沒有重新思考其必要性的空間，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，這部份我們會繼續努力啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：教師的主要責任就是教學、輔導學生，他沒有受過交通指揮的專業訓練啊！不是我們不支持，但教師畢竟不是警察，也沒有公權力啊！若仍然要教師導護，那應該給予什麼樣的訓練、給予什麼樣的保障？要馬兒好、又要馬兒不吃草，要馬兒能做這樣的服務，卻沒有給予相關支持，這是我要提出的啊！藉由這份公文，我要再次呼籲教育部重視這樣的問題。我不是反對他們去，而是主張給予強度的支持、協助他們的權益，這部分應該做到。部長，拖很久了！希望你能夠有所突破。"],["鄭部長英耀：就這個部分，我們會跟地方一起合作、努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：幾個月內可以努力完、並且有個成果？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個確實涉及各地方的特性，包括社區、都會區跟……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那什麼時候要溝通？溝通會議內容什麼時候給我們？"],["鄭部長英耀：兩個月內。"],["羅委員廷瑋：兩個月內？"],["鄭部長英耀：兩個月後，我們跟22個縣市……"],["羅委員廷瑋：希望我等得到。不要超過兩個月後再延兩個月、再一次兩個月！我上一次就跟你講了，政次也說他覺得交通導護這個部分有疑義，講到現在，我還沒等到相關具體改善。"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，我不曉得葉次長當時有承諾委員。我們在行政上……署長現在給我的訊息是他在520、還沒有進來之前有這樣的主張，當然我們會就整個政策全面了解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好啦！一年過了又一年，真的要做啦！好不好？拜託、拜託！"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來休息5分鐘。","休息（11時56分）","繼續開會（12時2分）"],["主席：會議繼續。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b55e33a555679c77e795f59f7b69f6ae87f2bf784d93fc30857439106b1a09b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:33:15 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謝謝主席喔是不是請邱部長來 請部長委員好"},{"start":26.674,"end":53.721,"text":"部長辛苦了 剛從這個WHA的會議那邊回來但是呢因為今天專委拍了兒童托育服務法所以我們還是要討論一下因為凱凱案的流行的保姆啊大家都覺得非常的惡質那社會高度矚目的就是說像這樣的保姆怎麼可能怎麼可能沒有被發現 沒有被淘汰還能繼續帶小孩"},{"start":55.785,"end":73.5,"text":"那我們來檢視行政院版的兒童托育服務法我們這樣如果說我現在問你不要講凱凱愛那麼誇張啦如果說把托兒留在家裡然後留給家人照顧然後自己跑去逛街你覺得恰當嗎放在家裡沒有大人照顧不是啦他保母把托兒放在家裡留給家人照顧啦"},{"start":83.126,"end":103.331,"text":"非保姆本身 然後保姆本身跑去逛街你覺得適當嗎有保姆的家人保姆自己跑出去逛街當然不行當然什麼當然不行收拖的拖而人數超過法定上限嚴重超收這樣子適合嗎不適合那我剛剛講了再講一個例子也是這個"},{"start":105.632,"end":123.046,"text":"讓托兒趴睡 床上充滿了枕頭玩偶 訪員提醒說這樣可能會讓托兒窒息保姆回答說 我不改 你能拿我怎麼樣你覺得可以嗎 不可以用馬克杯裝熱水 然後沒有放置妥當翻倒後導致托兒受燙傷"},{"start":125.508,"end":137.519,"text":"這樣子喔 所以我不要講凱凱很嚴重的 我就講從這裡這樣的行為 請問你現在的行政院的版本是有什麼樣的棒子可以處理好 周市長要不要那個"},{"start":146.628,"end":160.794,"text":"不知道 照你們行政院版本你們是怎麼處理我們現在行政院版本的第八條裡面對於托育服務要提供的相關的保育內容裡面"},{"start":161.554,"end":190.211,"text":"那在第八條的第二項我們有關在托育服務內容的衛生安全營養生活照顧學習一些的相關的原則方式以及相關的事項那因為這個部分因為涉及到整個生活照顧很多的細節的部分所以是用授權的方式未來會有這個法規命令的部分有細項的來來律定好啦我簡單用白話我們跟部長講一下啦這些違規啊目前都限期改善就沒事了限期改善啦"},{"start":190.911,"end":207.134,"text":"所以把我被抓到一次 演一下 乖一點改善期一過 不會有任何裁罰不會裁罰 也沒有任何紀錄下次再抓到違規 再限期改善 再乖一點然後沒有裁罰 沒有任何的紀錄"},{"start":208.155,"end":230.649,"text":"那你們現行這是現行的管理辦法然後我們期待的兒童托育服務法要用更高的規格來檢驗不適任的托育人員要讓孩子在托育的過程裡面的風險降到零幾乎是零這是眾所期待可是你們行政院的願板"},{"start":232.11,"end":254.167,"text":"你們的制度對現行的這些保姆的衛生安全的違規在你們草案裡面的第70條一樣叫做限期改善一樣讓違規的保姆乖一點點以後可以準規水沒渾然後他肆無忌憚還可以繼續違規繼續違規再乖一點限期改善"},{"start":259.781,"end":270.154,"text":"你覺得這樣子恰當嗎 你們的版本報告委員 剛剛您提的這幾點我們都覺得不榮喜你們新的版本就這樣子提那如果這個有這樣我們"},{"start":271.331,"end":296.043,"text":"可以來 那就聽我們的 我們民間的版本來了本席代表民間所提的版本來了我們第81條第一項 針對衛生安全相關的違規已經改成直接採法之後再限期改善而因為這些攸關安全的議題不能夠不落實所以採到安全的那個違規要罰 要罰"},{"start":299.264,"end":314.188,"text":"那我們82條納入了祭典制不是每次罰了一下不痛不癢然後繼續違規 不是我們參考交通違規的制度違規的拖遠遠的依照嚴重程度祭典1到3點兩年內累積到6點暫停新拖"},{"start":320.25,"end":332.162,"text":"然後呢 要公告姓名如果五年內被祭典暫停吸陰退休兩次以後又再度違規被祭典 費正 費正 退場"},{"start":333.706,"end":351.068,"text":"所以只有建立祭典制然後讓每一次的違規變成很重要裁罰 處罰 還祭典然後未來要廢照 這樣才有效蘿蔔跟棒子 棒子要有效的棒子"},{"start":352.009,"end":379.937,"text":"所以在這裡我們要給社會一個真正的交代你要讓這種不適任的這種地雷要出去好的留下來不要再讓不斷違規的人不適任的人留在這個場內把家長讓家長把孩子交到有風險的人手上那我現在再問你部長你同意好的托育的品質必須是基於好的勞動條件也應該要提升托育人員的勞動條件嗎"},{"start":382.933,"end":391.062,"text":"當然希望當然是希望 可是你現在確定這些托育人員同工同酬嗎你們現在有制定薪資標準的最低薪資標準的都是機構式的那居家托育人員是誰訂的你知道嗎"},{"start":409.242,"end":424.613,"text":"地方政府因地制宜的模式讓同工不同酬讓不同縣市之間的人員薪資差異很大而且地方政府扛不起壓力地方政府在審議的過程在決定訂薪資的條件的時候"},{"start":428.055,"end":446.69,"text":"受到很大的人情壓力然後相關團體的壓力導致整體來說居家托育的薪資條幅以及其他所受到的保障明顯不足不足跟機構式的托育人員沒比的沒比的我們現在要說"},{"start":447.811,"end":470.662,"text":"只有好的勞動條件的保障才有好的托育的品質如果一個托育為什麼對機構要做基本工資的限制因為流動性高啊那如果有保姆他當然沒有雇主可是他自己就是他的收費就收這麼低你覺得他收那麼低可以不超收嗎他收那麼低會大家都"},{"start":472.109,"end":479.855,"text":"過很久還認老不認怨嗎自己的六八六五其實就過得很累收了那麼低以他的勞動來講報酬不相當不對等容易情緒失控嘛有沒有可能所以我們在這種狀況裡面我們的版本你們都沒有討論到這一環我們的版本就是要求這個收費標準要由中央中央來扛起這個責任啊"},{"start":501.738,"end":528.528,"text":"你覺得呢?部長目前對於這個所有不管是機構或者是保姆的部分他的收費那收費的項目的原則那我們中央會來定一個相關的地方都是由各地方政府制定這個問題很大地方政府來定定"},{"start":528.948,"end":543.234,"text":"我們現在不希望地方政府繼續定定 中央要扛起責任 這剛好什麼困難啊我想這個都可以來討論好 那我再問你喔 我們現在0到2歲的托育的服務啊機構是居家室 比例各占多少多少孩子的機構是多少孩子的居家保姆照顧 比例各占多少"},{"start":553.015,"end":555.057,"text":"大約一半一半那我要問你當我們在講說這兩種模式各佔一半的時候家長都必須工作跟生小孩就必須要二折一了"},{"start":570.672,"end":595.148,"text":"那如果兩個都做的人已經夠辛苦了 他找保姆或是找機構找到保姆的人 我要講我們政府在服務擴充的這個政策上的規劃和資源的挹注上面政府的資源分配在機構市跟居家市的預算分配上差多少你知道嗎 差多少 你自己報告預算"},{"start":599.403,"end":624.425,"text":"你現在對托育所有的政府的資源經費都依據在機構室啦我行政院你以行政院我國少子女化的對策計畫107到114年為例在提高0到2歲托育服務量的章節裡面所提到的4種政策目標都只鎖定機構室的托育不見社區公共托育家園"},{"start":625.146,"end":646.227,"text":"因地制宜的設置公社民營托嬰中心協助推動政府機關構提供職員 員工 子女托育服務提供公共化的托育相關人員薪資通篇都沒有看到政府對於擴充居家服務量能有任何短中長期的規劃更不要講逐漸浮現了"},{"start":649.77,"end":675.005,"text":"居家托育的這些人力老化保姆越來越老而即將要迎來人力斷層的危機的問題你們有提出任何具體可行的積極的因應的對策和解方嗎你們有重視居家托育的重要性嗎你們有分配任何資源給居家托育的這些這個保姆等等嗎"},{"start":677.338,"end":683.201,"text":"一半一半以去年為例700個孩子的機構700個孩子的保姆機構式的資源全部都給他居家托育的零這樣合理嗎"},{"start":696.259,"end":719.683,"text":"跟委員報告家長把小朋友不管是拖到托嬰中心或者是居家保母基本上他能夠得到的托育補助是一致的另外對於居家保母的補助目前每年居家保母每年一樣有相關的補助對於托育的保母保母的部分也單獨有相關的補助"},{"start":720.99,"end":740.796,"text":"你能告訴我資源怎麼分配啊資源分配我現在在講說你們對於提升這一種服務量能你們是怎麼樣的分配當然準公共化公共化當然都有資源分配啊我們也知道保母也有零啊但我不是在講這一個為了少子女化然後幫家長減輕負擔的補助不要講"},{"start":748.698,"end":763.511,"text":"我是在講對於機構市和居家市的托育你們在政策輔導上你們的資源分配給了什麼而面對居家托育的勞動人力的逐漸高齡化"},{"start":766.633,"end":787.533,"text":"再接下來就人力短缺 然後你們有任何因應的對策嗎你們投資了多少的政策資源 要去增加居家室托育的品質讓勞動力不要這麼高齡化 鼓勵年輕人也進入這個市場"},{"start":789.255,"end":810.441,"text":"你們做了什麼 我說不知道 保守 你的保守在幫助父母減輕他們托育的經濟負擔我現在是你對於這種服務托育式的服務和機構式的服務 你的錢全部都到機構式服務去而對於家庭托育 居家托育式的 沒有"},{"start":811.221,"end":820.906,"text":"市委員可不可以請理事幫很簡單回答一下我認為你說的完全是重點現在兩個部門現在一個需求端一個供給端你現在說的需求端"},{"start":824.268,"end":833.513,"text":"這個是一粒品種 但是我相信 你剛剛說的那個整個供給端 這邊跟長照一樣 有分機構 也有社區對 我在講供給端的問題 供給端的部分 我如果有人報告我們現在目前就是說 那個居家托育人員 如果說他有那個整個品質改善的話一年一萬八 但是我過去在台中 台中市政府 社會社會肯定 我覺得這永遠不夠啦"},{"start":849.48,"end":854.521,"text":"所以我這個部分你現在把你整體的經費除以從業人員去看他一萬八機構是平均分配的社會資源是啦國家部門資源數十倍啦不對 委員我感覺這個本來就應該要越離媽媽離那個居家越近越好所以這也是我們的少子女化政策的一個對阿 可盡性阿你現在為什麼委員所說的現在平均的保母平均年齡正在提高啦"},{"start":877.825,"end":886.947,"text":"這個保温我們就要...保温都阿嬤化了委員我要報告這個保温我要責成同仁所以你知道講到重點但你現在要回去好好的想應該的政府的資源和政策應該怎麼樣導入去協助他們吧這個保温我一定回來要求這個保温要做一些改善這個問題對孩子問題比較好這樣我再來問你啦次長你告訴我保證都不知道啦來我現在講居托中居托服務中心"},{"start":907.25,"end":919.52,"text":"居多服務中心應該是要做什麼的報告委員 居多服務中心一般來我們現在目前是這樣主要就是來像那個居家人那個保姆對不對他們會去那邊看 去那邊扶著在你們新訂的法規你們的草案裡面有對這樣的業務法制化嗎"},{"start":928.887,"end":951.704,"text":"我現在說一個故事給你聽不管機關為了迎合議員增加政績然後要求增加非計劃內的要求比如說開放居托中心內夜間臨托服務要求中心配合並更改上班時間然後到晚上10點訪員被迫改夜間上班居托中心變成臨時的24小時的托嬰中心你覺得適當嗎"},{"start":953.425,"end":958.27,"text":"現在是變成地方政府的小幫手你們是招資集來揮資集去看要做什麼他就是變成是這樣的補充人力嗎"},{"start":962.251,"end":967.073,"text":"報告委員這個我覺得應該要檢討週末的時候被要求辦理許多額外的活動和宣導業務你覺得是居托中心居托服務中心的應該要做的事情嗎這要檢討托育補助業務補件家長預領了款項叫居托中心的人要協助到家長家去收取預領的款項回來地方政府可以去做這個這叫居托服務中心的功能報告委員這個我想讓我們了解一下"},{"start":991.624,"end":998.252,"text":"很多地方政府都這樣你人生你都應該要掌握啊我再說一次要求居托服務中心要提供借月教具玩具服務跟其他的人家一些親子館托資中心圖書館都在做的都重疊然後叫居托服務中心也去做這個"},{"start":1010.086,"end":1025.814,"text":"適當嗎然後配合支援其他活動其他的廉價非托育業務有關的活動都叫他們去參加要動員適當嗎然後語言推廣要求協助推廣什麼什麼語言但沒有任何支援醫藥中心推廣這個合理嗎"},{"start":1027.995,"end":1048.881,"text":"所以我們今天在講的是說沒有明定居托中心的業務執掌仍然停留在一般的原則性規範所以居托中心居托服務中心這個角色這個定位這個功能他要設定成什麼難道不應該要好好的明定出來嗎該不是臨時人力資源所"},{"start":1052.23,"end":1068.758,"text":"當然不是啦 他正經來就要做什麼?正經來就要做什麼?包委員 他應該最主要就是要輔導我們這裡的服務人員去做提供比較好的服務包括 我如果委員報告 包括就是說有時候他要去選 去看本來就是核心的 核心業務耶對 因為委員報告 因為這樣 所以我們卓院長他也很貼貼 因為現在那個薪資在去年從3萬"},{"start":1078.384,"end":1084.159,"text":"我現在就是要跟你講來 次長因為到時候修法會再談就是說法律裡面你們的草案都沒有想到"},{"start":1085.14,"end":1098.81,"text":"你們要直接明定化法制化他的業務權責範圍釐清中心他的角色案定位然後讓他正常正規的核心業務訪視人員發揮他的專業確實的去做好訪視工作掌握好托育的品質充分的評估照顧保姆照顧的風險每一個保姆都被看到被訪視被評估了"},{"start":1111.178,"end":1120.186,"text":"才能夠落實真正的居托中心輔導管理居托品質服務的這個制度的初衷現在都在打雜 又臨拖 又叫人去做什麼 去動玩辦那個什麼 辦獎典禮 辦什麼活動都不像話 地方政府都越來越不像話所以我們的草案都有 請你們到時候支持"},{"start":1137.02,"end":1146.885,"text":"感謝委員好 我完全同意啦 保證也常常要支持要蓋下去啊 你的行政院版本都沒收到 都沒在制度的設計 都要把它放下去好謝謝 感謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1365,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時33分）謝謝主席，是不是請邱部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["林委員淑芬：部長，辛苦了，剛從WHA的會議那邊回來。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：但是因為今天召委排了兒童托育服務法，所以我們還是要討論一下。因為剴剴案的劉姓保母大家都覺得非常惡質，而社會高度矚目的，就是像這樣的保母怎麼可能沒有被發現，沒有被淘汰，還能繼續帶小孩？我們來檢視行政院版的兒童托育服務法，我現在問你，不要講剴剴案那麼誇張啦！如果說把托兒留在家裡，留給家人照顧，然後自己跑去逛街，你覺得恰當嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：放在家裡，沒有大人照顧？"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！保母把托兒放在家裡，留給家人照顧，非保母本身啦！然後保母本身跑去逛街，你覺得適當嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：你是說保母的家人啦！"],["林委員淑芬：保母自己跑出去逛街。"],["邱部長泰源：那當然不行。"],["林委員淑芬：當然什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：當然不行。"],["林委員淑芬：收托的托兒人數超過法定上限，嚴重超收，這樣子適合嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不適合。"],["林委員淑芬：我再講一個例子，讓托兒趴睡，床上充滿了枕頭、玩偶，訪員提醒這樣可能會讓托兒窒息，保母回答說「我不改，你能拿我怎麼樣」，你覺得可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不可以。"],["林委員淑芬：用馬克杯裝熱水，然後沒有放置妥當，翻倒後導致托兒受燙傷，像這樣子，所以我不要講剴剴這種很嚴重的，我就從這裡，這樣的行為，請問現在的行政院版本有什麼樣的棒子可以處理？"],["邱部長泰源：好，司長要不要把版本……"],["林委員淑芬：不知道？來，照你們的行政院版本，你們是怎麼處理？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，現在在行政院版本的第八條，對於托育服務他要提供的保育內容，在第八條第二項，「托育服務內容有關衛生、安全、營養、生活照顧與學習之實施原則、方式及其他相關事項」，因為這個部分涉及到整個生活照顧很多的細節，所以是用授權的方式，未來法規命令的部分會有細項的律定，以上報告。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！我簡單用白話文跟部長講一下，這些違規目前都限期改善就沒事了，限期改善啦！所以保母被抓到一次，演一下、乖一點，改善期一過不會有任何裁罰，不會裁罰也沒有任何紀錄，下次再抓到違規，再限期改善，再乖一點，然後沒有裁罰，沒有任何的紀錄，這是現行的管理辦法。","我們期待的兒童托育服務法要用更高的規格來檢驗不適任的托育人員，要讓孩子在托育過程裡面的風險降到零，幾乎是零，這是眾所期待嘛！可是行政院的院版，你們的制度對現行這些保母的衛生安全違規，在你們草案裡面的第七十條，一樣叫做「限期改善」，一樣讓違規的保母乖一點點以後可以船過水無痕，然後他肆無忌憚還可以繼續違規，繼續違規，再乖一點，限期改善，你覺得這樣子恰當嗎？你們的版本。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，剛剛您提的這幾點，我們都覺得不容許再發生。"],["林委員淑芬：你們新的版本就這樣子提欸！"],["邱部長泰源：如果有這樣，我們可以來研議。"],["林委員淑芬：那就聽我們的，我們民間的版本來了，本席代表民間所提的版本來了，我們的第八十一條第一項，針對衛生安全相關的違規已經改成直接裁罰之後再限期改善，因為這些攸關安全的議題不能夠不落實，所以踩到安全的那個違規要罰，要罰。","我們的第八十二條納入了記點制，不是每一次罰了一下不痛不癢，然後繼續違規，不是！我們參考交通違規的制度，違規的托育人員得依照嚴重程度記點1到3點，兩年內累積到6點就暫停新托，然後要公告姓名，如果5年內被記點暫停新托兩次以後，又再度違規被記點就廢證退場，所以只有建立記點制讓每一次的違規變成很重要，裁罰、處罰還記點，然後未來要廢照，這樣才有效。蘿蔔跟棒子，棒子要有效的棒子，所以在這裡我們要給社會一個真正的交代，你要讓這種不適任的地雷出去，好的留下來，不要再讓不斷違規的人、不適任的人留在場內，讓家長把孩子交到有風險的人手上。","我現在再問你，部長，你同意好的托育品質必須是基於好的勞動條件，也應該要提升托育人員的勞動條件嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然需要。"],["林委員淑芬：當然是希望，可是你現在確定這些托育人員是同工同酬嗎？你們現在有制定最低薪資標準的都是機構式的，居家托育人員是誰訂的，你知道嗎？地方政府。"],["邱部長泰源：地方政府做的。"],["林委員淑芬：地方政府因地制宜的模式，讓同工不同酬，讓不同縣市之間的人員薪資差異很大，而且地方政府扛不起壓力，地方政府在審議的過程，在決定薪資條件的時候，受到很大的人情壓力啊！還有相關團體的壓力，導致整體來說，居家托育的薪資調幅以及其他所受到的保障明顯不足，與機構式的托育人員不能比。","我現在要說的是，只有好的勞動條件保障才有好的托育品質，為什麼對機構要做基本工資的限制？因為流動性高啊！那如果有保母，他當然沒有雇主，可是他自己就是，他的收費就收這麼低，你覺得他收那麼低，可以不超收嗎？他收費那麼低，他會顧很久又任勞任怨嗎？自己的爸爸、媽媽其實就顧得很累了，收費那麼低，以他的勞動來講，報酬不相當、不對等，容易情緒失控嘛！有沒有可能？所以在這種狀況裡面，你們都沒有討論到這一環，我們的版本就是要求這個收費標準要由中央來扛起責任，你覺得呢？部長，你不知道？"],["周代理署長道君：目前對於不管是機構或者是保母的部分，它的收費項目的原則，我們中央會來訂一個相關……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你講地方，地方都是由各地方政府制定，這個問題很大。"],["周代理署長道君：所以具體的金額部分，目前還是維持地方政府來訂定。"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在不希望地方政府繼續訂定，中央要扛起責任，這個是有什麼困難啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個都可以來討論。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我再問你，現在0到2歲的托育服務，機構式和居家式的比例各占多少？多少孩子在機構式？多少孩子在居家保母照顧？比例各占多少？你不知道哦？這種事情……"],["周代理署長道君：目前大約一半一半。"],["林委員淑芬：一半一半，那我要問你，當我們在說這兩種模式各占一半的時候，你知道家長有多可憐嗎？工作跟生小孩就必須要二擇一了，如果是兩個都做的人已經夠辛苦了，還要找保母或是找機構，找到保母的人，我要講，我們政府在服務擴充這個政策上的規劃和資源的挹注上面，政府的資源分配，在機構式跟居家式的預算分配上差多少你知道嗎？差多少？你們自己報告。"],["邱部長泰源：預算……"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在對托育，所有政府的資源、經費都挹注在機構式啦！以行政院「我國少子女化對策計畫（107-114年）」為例，在提高0到2歲托育服務量的章節裡面所提到的四種政策目標，都只鎖定機構式的托育，包括布建社區公共托育家園、因地制宜設置公設民營托嬰中心、協助推動政府機關（構）提供員工子女托育服務、提升公共化托育服務相關人員薪資，通篇都沒有看到政府對於擴充居家服務量能有任何短中長期的規劃，更不要講逐漸浮現的居家托育人力老化，保母越來越老，即將要迎來人力斷層危機的問題，你們有積極地提出任何具體可行的因應對策和解方嗎？你們有重視居家托育的重要性嗎？你們有分配任何資源給居家托育的這些保母等等嗎？一半一半哦！如果以去年為例，7萬個孩子在機構，7萬個孩子在保母，機構式的把資源全部都給它，居家托育的是零，這樣合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，回答用麥克風……"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，家長把小朋友不管是托到托嬰中心或者是居家保母，基本上他能夠得到的托育補助是一致的。另外，對於居家保母的……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講托育補助。"],["周代理署長道君：對居家保母的補助，目前每年，居家保母每年一樣有相關的補助。"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講補助。"],["周代理署長道君：對於托育的保母，保母的部分也單獨有相關的補助。"],["林委員淑芬：你來告訴我資源怎麼分配啊！資源分配，我現在是在講，你們對於提升這一種服務量能，你們是怎麼樣分配？當然準公共化、公共化都有資源分配，我們知道保母也有領啊！但我不是在講這一個。為了少子女化，然後幫家長減輕負擔的補助不要講，我是在講對於機構式和居家式的托育，你們在政策輔導上，你們的資源分配給了什麼？而面對居家托育的勞動人力逐漸高齡化，再接下來就會人力短缺，你們有任何因應的對策嗎？你們投資了多少的政策資源要去增加居家式托育的品質，讓勞動力不要這麼高齡化，鼓勵年輕人也進入這個市場，你們做了什麼？我怎麼會不知道有補助，你的補助是在幫助父母，減輕他們托育的經濟負擔，我現在是說你對於這種服務，托育式的服務和機構式的服務，你的錢全部都到機構式服務去，而對於家庭托育、居家托育式的，沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，可不可以請呂次簡單回答一下？"],["呂次長建德：第一個，委員，我覺得你說的完全是重點，現在有兩個部分……"],["林委員淑芬：你們有做嗎？"],["呂次長建德：一個是需求端，一個是供給端，你現在說的需求端，這個是一律平等，但是我承認我們整個供給端，這個部分和長照一樣，有分機構、社區和居家。"],["林委員淑芬：對，我在講供給端的問題啊！"],["呂次長建德：對，在供給端的部分，我跟委員報告，目前居家托育人員如果他有品質改善的話，一年是一萬八，但是我過去在臺中市政府當過社會局長，我覺得這個是永遠不夠啦！所以這個部分我會要求他們一起來提供。"],["林委員淑芬：你現在把你整體的經費除以從業人員去看，他一萬八，機構式平均分配的社會資源、國家部門資源……"],["呂次長建德：是，確實是這樣，而且……"],["林委員淑芬：數十倍啊！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，委員，我覺得這個本來就應該要，因為離居家托育越近越好，所以這也是我們少子女化政策的一個……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！可近性啊！"],["呂次長建德：而且誠如委員所說，我也知道現在保母的平均年齡正在提高，這個部分我們就要從勞動條件……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！保母都阿嬤化了。"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，這個部分我會責成同仁……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你知道講到重點，但你現在要回去好好地想，政府的資源和政策應該怎麼樣導入，去協助他們。"],["呂次長建德：關於這個部分，我回去一定會要求就這部分要做一些改善，對孩子真的比較好。"],["林委員淑芬：OK。好，那我再來問你，次長，你比較會說，部長都不知道。來，我現在來講居托服務中心，居托服務中心應該是要做什麼的？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，居托服務中心目前主要就是，像保母，他們會去巡，會去看，會去輔導。"],["林委員淑芬：那你們新定的法規，你們的草案裡面，有對於它的業務法制化嗎？我現在說一個故事給你聽，現在為了迎合議員增加政績，然後要求增加非計畫內的要求，比如說開放居托中心內夜間臨托服務，要求中心配合，並更改上班時間到晚上10點。訪員被迫改夜間上班，居托中心變成臨時的24小時托嬰中心，你覺得適當嗎？現在是變成地方政府的小幫手，招之即來，揮之即去，看要叫他們做什麼，他們就變成這樣的補充人力嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個我覺得應該要檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：週末的時候被要求辦理許多額外的活動和宣導業務，你覺得是居托服務中心應該要做的事情嗎？"],["呂次長建德：這個要檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：托育補助業務補件，家長溢領的款項，叫居托中心的人要協助到家長家去收取溢領的款項回來，地方政府叫他們去做這個，這個是居托服務中心的功能嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，是不是讓我們瞭解一下？"],["林委員淑芬：很多地方政府都這樣，理論上，你都應該要掌握啊。我再說給你聽，要求居托服務中心要提供借閱教具、玩具服務，跟其他的親子館、托資中心、圖書館都在做的事重疊，然後叫居托服務中心也去做這個，適當嗎？然後配合支援其他活動，其他的廉價非托育業務有關的活動都叫他們去參加，要動員，適當嗎？然後還有語言推廣，要求協助推廣語言，但沒有任何資源，硬要中心推廣，這個合理嗎？所以我們今天在講的是說，沒有明定居托中心的業務職掌，仍然停留在一般的原則性規範，所以居托服務中心這個角色、這個定位、這個功能，要設定成什麼？難道不應該要好好地明定出來嗎？是不是臨時人力資源所？"],["呂次長建德：當然不是。"],["林委員淑芬：那它正經事要做什麼？正經事要做什麼？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，它最主要就是要輔導這些服務人員去提供比較好的服務，我跟委員報告，包括他有時候要去巡、要去看。"],["林委員淑芬：本來就是，核心業務呢？"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，因為這樣，我們卓院長也很體貼，現在他們的薪資在去年從30,000……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就是要跟你講，來，次長，因為到時候修法還會再談。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["林委員淑芬：就是說，法律裡面，你們的草案都沒有想到，你們要直接明定法制化它的業務權責範圍，釐清中心它的角色和定位，然後讓它正常正規的核心業務──訪視人員發揮專業，確實做好訪視工作，掌握好托育的品質，充分地評估保母照顧的風險，每一個保母都被看到，被訪視，被評估了，才能夠落實真正的居托中心輔導管理居托品質服務的這個制度的初衷。"],["呂次長建德：確實是這樣，我完全同意。"],["林委員淑芬：現在都在打雜，還有臨托，還動員叫他們去頒獎典禮，辦什麼活動，都不像話，地方政府都越來越不像話，我們的草案都有，請你們到時候支持。"],["呂次長建德：好。感謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：我完全同意，部長也支持。"],["林委員淑芬：完全同意就要改，你們的行政院版本都沒有修到，都沒有照制度設計，都要放進去。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。好。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳代）：好，謝謝淑芬委員。","接下來請劉建國召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 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也不是負面啦就是說要立專法有不立專法都有但是與會的這個我們的立委同仁大概都是一致希望說能夠還是立專法啦那可是上禮拜是我們副主委過來那副主委他講得很清楚他就說不立專法我們就用金保法來規範這個融資助理公司"},{"start":29.679,"end":46.255,"text":"那是不是我們金管會的態度就是我們先不立專法了就用金保法來規範是那個謝謝委員那個雖然上次沒有來啦我想他們傳達的意思大概就是我想趁這個機會簡短說一下立專法不是那個副主委的意思應該就是你的意思嘛"},{"start":47.336,"end":73.13,"text":"是是喔?那就是不立專法就對了不是不是我先跟委員講說其實很多人把專法就視為是一部獨立的法律叫專法但實際上立這種法律的目的是要來解決問題那假設說我們已經可以用這樣的一個法律的規範就可以解決這個問題的話我們是更簡便的立法我也講就是說那所以主委是說用金保法就可以來"},{"start":74.67,"end":89.377,"text":"處理目前的租賃公司的一些亂象就對了大部分的剛剛講是消費者爭議的部分我想這部分而且我再三強調很多人說這個監管不利各位想想看我們一般人認為我們金融機構的管理嚴不嚴"},{"start":90.951,"end":118.62,"text":"應該很嚴吧再來我們是把融資公司指定為是這個所謂我們管理的機構以後它除了金融管理的那一套要還要再加上我們針對特別融資公司的這些的規範所以我們也歡迎各界就是說假設你們所關心的消費者保護哪裡不夠我們現在法規還在預告程序中把那個比如說哪裡消費者保護我看有一些學者專家還是認為說如果光靠金保法還是不夠啊對"},{"start":119.44,"end":139.042,"text":"他那個講的不夠的意思就是說比如說這是一個很現實的問題他要把所有的融資公司的行為全部都要把他納管各位想我們台灣沒有一個專業的像比如日本的貸金公司我們是很多的公司他只做了這個貸款就會被納管那個加速連邊界都搞不清楚對不對到底誰是"},{"start":140.563,"end":163.755,"text":"我們市場上看不到有一家公司叫融資公司專門只做融資的公司就是沒有所以我說其實我們要非常非常清楚的知道說我們這個專法到底要規範誰而不是為了專法而專法當然不是為了專法而專法啦大家覺得說專法能夠管的大概廣度跟密度都會比用這個金寶法"},{"start":165.235,"end":188.067,"text":"那現在就是說那個金管會的態度就是說我們就先不立專法我們就先用新保法來做處理就對了然後分三階段來納管那我們想說第一個假設金管會主政B獎假設說按照一般專法的概念把那個所謂的號稱幾千家的公司全部納管我想這個很多人也提到在場我也聽很多學者講說未來監理的量能"},{"start":189.187,"end":214.795,"text":"你做得到嗎?再來就是你把這些全部把那些只要兼做到這個業務的人全部把他納管以管銀行的態度去管他你覺得他們大家很擔心他們也提到日本雖然他們一直舉貸金業法但是日本做了以後呢其實上有很多很多的問題啊所以我的意思是說這要審慎的思考但是我們很務實的在還沒有立專法之前金管會非常負責任的就認為我們可以來著力的趕快來著力那你現在不是還在請這個銀行公會在在這個討論說是不是要立專法"},{"start":218.556,"end":247.355,"text":"那是因為上次委理有要求我們要那他們的那他們的草案出來了嗎沒有他們的草案還在調整中然後我看他們應該就不用了吧因為你的態度已經確定了啊我覺得齁我覺得所謂的專法的概念大家不要執著於一部什麼叫法律我們重點是要把問題解決而且我們現在立即可行而且都還沒有做就批評說這個做不到雖然沒有這個融資公司的專法但是在金保法都已經要把這個融資公司所要這個專法所要管的東西都把它納進去了嗎"},{"start":248.937,"end":263.538,"text":"就是大家所關心的消費爭議的部分我覺得大家都可以在這公聽的時候你可以把你覺得哪裡不夠比如說剛剛講我們在過去看很多個案上面的問題其實上已經都已經被我們放在裡面而且都法律上是好那我就明確問那這樣子聽起來就"},{"start":265.801,"end":282.432,"text":"應該是今年就不會提專法就對了我覺得今年我們會先以那個金融消保法先來做我必須講假設以金管會的監理能量不可能再管這個幾千家的公司這個全世界沒有人這樣做的那主委態度就很清楚啦那我只是再舉齁這個監察院齁"},{"start":284.013,"end":306.676,"text":"他們四月份有個糾正案,不過他是糾正財政部的他就說他一直可以放款供公共銀行要放款給這些融資公司他是糾正財政部不過他最後也是有提到啦他希望說行政院確實評估訂定融資租賃公司的專法還有指定業務主管機關的可行性那當然這是監察院的糾正案裡面的裡面有提到啦供你們參考不過我看這個主委態度已經很明確啦"},{"start":307.987,"end":327.589,"text":"那再跟我們講其實過去二三十年來當然大家都支持專法只是當時沒有想到可以用金保法來解決所以當然這個觀念在轉換的過程當中大家當然覺得說奇怪那為什麼金保法當初也不是要來管這個融資公司的啊當然但是各位想想看金保法是以金融業的標準喔現在我們講說他們現在是沒有管理假設"},{"start":328.47,"end":349.8,"text":"融資公司是以金融業的管理的規格來管理各位是不是覺得比較放心我是覺得大家仔細思考一下這個內容既然金管會態度有這麼明確了那我們就看分三階段第一階段上市的第二階段就是大概是有一千家左右吧然後大概可以這樣子大概管的家屬大概有幾成呢我們"},{"start":351.141,"end":371.139,"text":"我們接下來第二階段會把金融機構轉投資的大概15家放進來接下來我們現在台北市租賃公會的我們會陸續把他納管那大概可以管到幾成?應該會差不多40家左右40家左右那全部所管的大概就40家左右其實我們講說他必須要先在公會我們才知道他的標的他沒有在公會就管不到了不是 比如說"},{"start":371.559,"end":393.675,"text":"不是管不到我們其他還有民法刑法還有一大堆消費者保護法在管理好像不是說這些無法可管只是沒有所謂的一部法律的管理就像你現在放高利貸民法還可以處理刑法還可以做並不是沒人管好那我現在就比較清楚知道那個主委的態度那剛才很多那個我們同仁有問到這個主學基金"},{"start":394.435,"end":416.497,"text":"那是不是可以用這個發行這個公債來投資那我看這個主委昨天接受這個跟媒體查詢也提到說這個受險業的投資能夠改善資產負債的不匹配的問題所以你也蠻支持就是說主學基金可以用發行公債的方式來收受裁員那受險業"},{"start":417.478,"end":445.734,"text":"也有這個意願那如此呢就可以不用去買其他國家的公債也可以擴大對台幣投資也可以降低這個資產負債不匹配的狀況那我想請問一下那你怎麼吸引受險業來參加受險業他還是有固定的收益啊但是主權基金不一定喔沒有就是等於說我剛才講因為受險業的資金是有成本的就跟銀行的放款他是有成本的他有要給那個比如說存款人的那個"},{"start":446.795,"end":468.244,"text":"利息還有它存放比的問題那壹樣授權公司它也一樣就是說假設我們看世界上主要這些保險大國他們在經營的時候呢通常比如像美國他們大部分的那個他們的授權公司的資產都會放在公債上面還有就是所謂的長期的公司債為什麼這麼做因為很簡單啊在台灣的比例很低啊"},{"start":468.624,"end":493.114,"text":"因為台灣主要我們債券市場規模沒有那麼大所以這是一個問題所以我們才會講說其實受險業一直希望在台灣能夠找到期間長 獲利穩定而且安全性高能夠跟他負債做匹配那主權基金有符合你剛才講這三個特性嗎這要看未來發行的條件那未來發行的什麼樣條件可以符合這三個你講的因為我們要吸引受險人回來台灣投資嘛對 當然就是剛才講說第一個"},{"start":494.835,"end":513.895,"text":"比如說他的報酬率要能夠超過他自己的成本嘛那這部分我覺得這個就是我們未來要看而且其實台灣需要有這個長期穩定投資其實不只有壽險業我們很多我們自己的四大基金也有這個問題啊那你希望壽險業回來台灣投資主權基金"},{"start":514.175,"end":539.717,"text":"我當然是鼓勵他們做因為為什麼就像我們最近大概在討論這些匯率利率的問題其實一個很很根本的原因就是說為什麼我們的台灣的台幣的負債沒辦法找到台幣的資產來做個對應如果這個對應就像比如美國他們賣美元保單投美元資產他就不會有匯率的問題對一樣可以維持穩定匯率日本的公司也是買他們自己的"},{"start":540.478,"end":567.119,"text":"固定收益的商品他也就不會有匯率的問題那台灣因為資金多但是投資工具少所以過去長年以來就形成這個結果我們當然希望說有這個管道能夠逐步的扭轉這樣的趨勢對我們售險業的長治久安還是很重要的好那剛剛提到順著主委的話講就是最近台幣一直升值升到快29塊了然後所以呢售險業面臨六月資本市主率的難關那剛剛同仁有問過我再問一下售險官員"},{"start":567.699,"end":583.856,"text":"有建議說這個今年的這個資本市主力RBC它的填報仿造股票採半年日均價的概念匯率也採半年的日均價那主委的態度咧我剛也講過了日均價這個不是獨厚誰他本來就是一個中性的"},{"start":584.497,"end":604.333,"text":"比如在往下滑的時候你會感覺那個日均價對你有利但往上走的時候你就會覺得對你不利這本來就是一個就是但是唯一的差別就是說看單點跟看均價的概念是你是看長期還是看短期你看即時還是看趨勢RBC是用來衡量長期穩定經營的所以過去我們在"},{"start":605.543,"end":625.717,"text":"股價的時候我們是用均價所以剛才講工會提這個問題尤其面對這樣一個波動的情況之下我們正在考慮這件事情所以也會接受他們的建議就是匯率才有均價的方式就對了對 這個部分我們在考慮要有數值上面的分析的影響我們會朝這個方向來思考都傾向支持就對了"},{"start":628.572,"end":637.062,"text":"那我最後再問一下如果台幣繼續升值的話這個會不會影響到說明年我們順利接軌這個新一代欠產能力的制度"},{"start":638.148,"end":663.356,"text":"我想任何一個波動因為這是隨時要變動我們在就是因為剛好就剩下半年的時間我們當然往前看的話我們當然希望能夠平穩的過渡當然我們會盡量的朝這個方向對我就說了如果說台幣如果再繼續再升值我看這大概會是一個趨勢會不會影響這個我不敢預期本來台幣未來的波動本來就很大那如果說是繼續升值的這個方向來講的話"},{"start":667.753,"end":683.793,"text":"這個部分我們就要看情況但是我們的制度是有期限的比如說我們的RBC到今年12月30號就會退場了就會成為歷史了這個退場之後我們未來看的指標是什麼新的我們所謂的新一代清償能力就是我們簡稱市場講TWICS"},{"start":685.835,"end":702.328,"text":"對 那我是指標啊你本來是不是看是我們是那個RBC嘛我們是看淨值嘛然後看這一個RBC不能低於200淨值不能低於2級低於3%嘛這是要求這個保險業你要有這個清償的能力那我再看一下"},{"start":703.59,"end":720.27,"text":"這個去年年底的這個就這個財報來看的話有兩家公司啦一家是三商美邦RBC才136.3那另外一家是新售是221那這兩家如果在六月份都還沒辦法達標勒"},{"start":721.724,"end":745.539,"text":"原則上我們是這樣我們制度的銜接我們是看長遠我打個比方假如說明年呢等於說你現在你要承接你現在有自備款我才會給你寬容給你貸款才逐年還所以要滿足一個自備款的要件就是舊的制度你要符合這個規定這是法律的規定我是說那有給他們喘息的空間嗎"},{"start":746.56,"end":773.238,"text":"沒有 這個就是我們為了看整個的波動情形我剛才講過市場的管理 穩定為先因為我們要看長我說 我已經講過很多次最近這個匯率跟利率呢 都是特別是匯率 都是一個所謂的波動會計上面的評價而不是真的保險公司真的把錢拿回來那是財報上顯示的啦因為保險局 王局長有提到說給他們喘息到九月有這個 deadline 嗎"},{"start":773.738,"end":788.89,"text":"這就要看那情況我們會針對這個半年我們應該怎麼樣讓它順利過渡正在思考這個問題好 以上先就教到如此謝謝謝謝李崑禎委員麻煩請李燕秀委員謝謝好 謝謝主委謝謝主席是不是請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我們請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：好，請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。上禮拜召開有關融資公司法人的公聽會，與會學者專家當然有持正面意見的，也有持負面意見的，也不是負面的，就是有的主張立專法，有的主張不立專法，都有，但是與會的立委同仁，大概都一致希望能立專法。可是上禮拜是副主委來列席，副主委講得很清楚，他說不立專法的話，就用金保法來規範融資租賃公司，那金管會的態度是不是先不立專法，就用金保法來規範？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。雖然我上次沒有來，但是我想他們傳達的意思大概就是這樣，我趁這個機會簡短說一下，立專法……"],["李委員坤城：副主委的意思應該就是你的意思嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：就是不立專法就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是。其實很多人把專法視為一部獨立的法律，叫專法，但實際上立這種法律的目的是要來解決問題，假設我們已經可以用這樣一個法律的規範就可以解決這個問題的話，我們是更簡便立法，我也講，就是說……"],["李委員坤城：所以主委的意思是，用金保法就可以處理目前租賃公司的一些亂象就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：大部分的，剛剛講的是消費者爭議的部分，我講這部分，而且我再三強調，很多人說監管不力，各位想想看，一般人認為我們金融機構的管理嚴不嚴？應該很嚴吧？再來，把融資公司指定為我們管理的機構以後，除了要有金融管理的那一套，還要再加上我們針對特別融資公司的這些規範，所以我們也歡迎各界來表達意見，假設你們所關心的消費者保護哪裡不夠，我們現在法規還在預告程序中，把哪裡消費者保護不夠……"],["李委員坤城：有啊，我看有一些學者專家認為光靠金保法還是不夠啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。他們講的不夠的意思是，比如說，這是一個很現實的問題，要把所有的融資公司的行為全部都要納管，各位想，我們臺灣沒有一個專業的機構，像日本的貸金公司，我們很多公司只是做了這個貸款就會被納管，那個家數連邊界都搞不清楚，對不對？到底誰是融資公司？我們市場上看不到有一家公司叫融資公司，幾乎沒有專門只做融資的公司，所以我說，其實我們要非常非常清楚地知道我們這個專法到底要規範誰，而不是為了專法而專法，而且各位想想看，現在……"],["李委員坤城：當然不是為了專法而專法啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，只是……"],["李委員坤城：但大家覺得專法能夠管的廣度跟密度都會比用金保法來得好，那現在金管會的態度就是先不立專法，先用金保法來做處理就對了，然後分三階段來納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。那我們想說，第一個，假設是金管會主政，我必須講，假設按照一般專法的概念，把號稱幾千家的公司全部納管，我想這個很多人也提到，我也聽很多學者講說，未來監理的量能做得到嗎？再來就是金管會把這些只要做這個業務的人全部納管，以管銀行的態度去管它，他們當然很擔心，他們也提到日本，雖然他們一直舉貸金業法，但是日本做了以後，其實也發生很多很多的問題，所以我的意思是，這要審慎地思考，但是我們很務實地，在還沒有立專法之前，金管會會非常負責任的針對我們可以著力的地方，趕快來著力。"],["李委員坤城：那你現在不是還在請銀行公會討論是不是要立專法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是因為上次委員有要求我們提出草案。"],["李委員坤城：那他們的草案出來了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，他們的草案還在調整中。"],["李委員坤城：我看他們應該就不用了吧，因為你的態度已經確定了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不過我覺得，所謂的專法的概念，大家不要執著於一部法律，我們的重點是要把問題解決，而且我們是立即可行，而且都還沒有做，就批評說這個做不到……"],["李委員坤城：所以你意思是，雖然沒有融資公司的專法，但是金保法都已經要把投資公司專法所要管的東西都納進去了嗎？大部分都納進去了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是大家所關心的消費爭議，我覺得大家都可以在公聽的時候把覺得哪裡不夠講出來，比如說剛剛講到的，我們過去看到很多個案上面的問題，實際上都已經被我們放在裡面……"],["李委員坤城：好，那我就明確問，這樣子聽起來，應該是今年就不會提專法就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得今年我們會先來做金融消保法，我必須講，假設以金管會的監理能量，不可能再管這幾千家公司，全世界沒有人這樣子做。"],["李委員坤城：好，那主委的態度就很清楚了，我只是舉出監察院4月份提出一個糾正案，不過是糾正財政部的，是針對公股銀行放款給這些投資公司，他們是糾正財政部，不過糾正案最後也有提到，希望行政院確實評估訂定融資租賃公司的專法及指定業務主管機關的可行性，當然這是監察院的糾正案裡面提到的部分，供你們參考，不過我看主委的態度已經很明確了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：再跟委員講，其實過去二、三十年來，當然大家都支持專法，只是當時沒有想到可以用金保法來解決，所以這個觀念在轉換的過程當中，大家當然覺得很奇怪，為什麼……"],["李委員坤城：金保法當初也不是要來管這個融資公司的啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然。但是各位想想看，金保法是以金融業的標準，我們說他們現在是沒有管理，假設融資公司是以金融業的管理規格來管理，各位是不是覺得比較放心？我覺得大家可以仔細思考一下這個內容……"],["李委員坤城：既然金管會態度這麼明確了，那我們就看，分三階段，第一階段是上市的，第二階段大概有1,000家左右，這樣子管的家數大概有幾成？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們接下來第二階段會把金融機構轉投資的15家放進來，接下來現在臺北市租賃公會的部分，我們會陸續納管。"],["李委員坤城：大概可以管到幾成？"],["彭主任委員金隆：差不多40家左右。"],["李委員坤城：40家左右？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員坤城：全部所管的就40家左右？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們講說，他們必須要先在公會，我們才知道標的，否則……"],["李委員坤城：如果沒有在公會，就管不到了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是管不到，我們還有民法、刑法，還有一大堆消費者保護法在管理，不是說臺灣這些無法可管，只是沒有一部專門的法律在管，就像你現在放高利貸，民法也可以處理，刑法也可以做，並不是沒人管。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我現在就比較清楚知道主委的態度。","剛才很多同仁問到主權基金是不是可以用發行公債來投資，我看主委昨天跟媒體茶敘時也提到，壽險業的投資能夠改善資產負債不匹配的問題，你也滿支持主權基金可以用發行公債的方式來籌措財源，壽險業也有這個意願，如此一來就可以不用去買其他國家的公債，也可以擴大對臺幣投資，也可以降低我剛剛講到的資產負債不匹配的狀況，那我想請問一下，你怎麼吸引壽險業來參加？因為壽險業還是要有固定的收益，但是主權基金不一定。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛講，因為壽險業的資金是有成本的，就跟銀行的放款一樣，是有成本的，要給存款人利息，還有存放比的問題，壽險公司也一樣，我們看世界上主要的保險大國，像美國在經營的時候，他們的壽險公司的資產都會放在公債上面，還有長期的公司債，為什麼這麼做？因為很簡單啊……"],["李委員坤城：在臺灣的比例很低。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為臺灣的債券市場規模沒有那麼大，這是一個問題，所以我們才會講說，其實壽險業一直希望在臺灣能夠找到期間長、獲利穩定、安全性高、能夠跟他們的負債匹配的投資標的。"],["李委員坤城：那主權基金有符合你剛剛講的這三個特性嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要看未來發行的條件。"],["李委員坤城：未來發行的什麼樣條件可以符合這三個特性？因為我們要吸引壽險業回來臺灣投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然就是剛剛講的，第一個，比如說報酬率要能夠超過它自己的成本，我覺得這個就是我們未來要看的，而且其實臺灣需要有長期穩定投資，不只有壽險業，我們自己的四大基金也有這個問題，對不對？"],["李委員坤城：那你希不希望壽險業回來臺灣投資主權基金？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我當然是鼓勵他們做，最近大家在討論這些匯率、利率的問題，其實很根本的原因是，為什麼我們臺灣臺幣的負債沒辦法找到臺幣的資產來做對應？如果這個對應，就像美國他們賣美元保單，投美元資產，就不會有匯率的問題，一樣可以維持穩定獲利。日本的公司也是買他們自己的固定收益的商品，也就不會有匯率的問題。因為臺灣資金多，但是投資工具少，所以長年以來就形成這個結果，我們當然希望有這個管道能夠逐步扭轉這樣的趨勢，對我們壽險業長治久安還是很重要的。"],["李委員坤城：好，順著主委的話講，最近臺幣一直升值，升到快29塊了，所以壽險業面臨6月資本適足率的難關，剛剛同仁有問過，我再問一下，壽險公會建議，針對今年的資本適足率RBC的填報仿照股票採半年日均價的概念，匯率也採半年的日均價，那主委的態度呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛也講過了，採日均價不是獨厚誰，它本來就是一個中性的，比如在往下滑的時候，你感覺採日均價對你有利，但是往上走的時候，你就會覺得對你不利，唯一的差別就是看單點跟看均價的概念，你是看長期還是看短期，你看即時還是看趨勢，RBC是用來衡量長期穩定經營的，所以過去在談股價的時候，我們是用均價，所以剛剛講公會提這個問題，尤其面對這樣的一個波動的情況之下，我們正在考慮這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：所以也會接受他們的建議，就是匯率採均價的方式就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。這個部分，我們在考慮要有數值上面分析的影響，我們會朝這個方向來思考。"],["李委員坤城：都傾向支持就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員坤城：那我最後再問一下，如果臺幣繼續升值的話，會不會影響到明年我們順利接軌新一代清償能力的制度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是隨時要變動，就是因為剛好就剩下半年的時間，我們大家往前看的話，我們當然希望能夠平穩地過渡，當然我們會儘量朝這個方向。"],["李委員坤城：我是說，如果臺幣繼續升值，我看大概會是一個趨勢，會不會影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我不敢預期，臺幣未來的波動本來就很大，對不對？"],["李委員坤城：如果繼續朝升值這個方向的話呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分我們就要看情況，但是我們的制度是有期限的，比如說，我們的RBC到今年12月30日就會退場了，就會成為歷史了，所以說這部分……"],["李委員坤城：那這個退場之後，我們未來看的指標是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的上一代清償能力，簡稱TW-ICS。"],["李委員坤城：我是說指標，我們本來是RBC，是看淨值嘛，然後看RBC不得低於200，淨值兩期不得低於3%，就是要求保險業要有清償的能力。以去年年底的財報來看的話，有兩家公司，一家是三商美邦的RBC才136.3，另外一家是新壽221，這兩家如果在6月份都還沒辦法達標呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：制度的銜接我們是看長遠，打個比方，假如你明年要承接，你現在要有自備款，我才會給你寬容、給你貸款，容許逐年還。所以要滿足自備款的要件，就是你要符合舊制度的規定，這是法律的規定，大概是這樣。"],["李委員坤城：對。但是有給他們喘息的空間嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是為了看整個波動情形，我剛才說過，市場的管理以穩定為先，因為我們要看長期。我已經說過很多次，最近的匯率和利率，特別是匯率，都是所謂的波動，這是會計方面的評價，而不是保險公司真的把錢拿回來，把那筆錢變成損失。"],["李委員坤城：那是財報上顯示的啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。所以……"],["李委員坤城：因為保險局王局長有提到，讓他們喘息到9月，有這個deadline嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這就要看情況，關於這半年怎麼順利過度，我們正在思考這個問題。"],["李委員坤城：好，以上先就教到此，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝李坤城委員。","請李彥秀委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 2 案、\n(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅\n廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」\n等6案；二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳\n濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部\n分條文修正草案」等 4 案、 ( 二 ) 本院委員林楚茵等 17 人、委員王鴻薇等 19 人、委員郭國文等 18\n人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等\n4案、(三)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條\n條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145401_00006"}}},{"id":"162007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f2400bd0af47fcb69771b5ee1b3bf308d2e87f2bf784d93fc30b39433cafc38c7155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:35:42 - 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我們請部長陳部長"},{"start":23.002,"end":51.124,"text":"部長我想在討論這個農民退休儲金條例之前我想我們還是要review一下就是說其實從蔡英文總統她一直大力推動的各項保障農民的政策其實從我們就是三保一金我們的健康保險還有農業保險還有植栽保險還有農民退休儲金三保一金"},{"start":51.964,"end":68.37,"text":"這是我們從過去農委會然後到農業部陳其仲主委一直到陳巨基部長我們在努力的所以我覺得今天如果我們常在說哇我們要來修正農民退休處境好像民進黨沒在做事錯了"},{"start":70.683,"end":93.485,"text":"我們這個三保一經我們努力很久我覺得我們應該把這個前提跟大家說也因為有我們當時候的1比1的補助所以才有今天大家在討論覆蓋率的問題要1比1.5所以我認為說我們都要把前提講清楚否則農民會忘記"},{"start":96.474,"end":120.817,"text":"會忘記所以其實我們這一次覆蓋率我們在討論覆蓋率覆蓋率不足不到五成所以大家認為說這應該是這個對比補貼的問題如果有更多的誘因可以讓我們的政府補貼升到1.5倍民眾的誘因會更高我們農民的誘因會更高所以才有這樣的一個討論的依據"},{"start":122.578,"end":141.304,"text":"所以我認為說其實我們努力那麼久從三保一經過去根本不可能過去根本不可能啦我們的健康保險然後再來農業保險然後再植栽保險過去我們的農民看到勞工他有植栽我們農民在大陸會卡"},{"start":149.987,"end":171.78,"text":"然後送醫都沒有辦法有所謂的植栽可是現在可以了然後還有我們有一些農作物現在只要保險在我們的這個農損的部分有相對應這個過去也沒有然後還有我們農民的健康保險所以其實我們一直在說的"},{"start":175.728,"end":178.402,"text":"我們希望農民更好因為農民很辛苦看天吃飯"},{"start":181.294,"end":207.521,"text":"我都不希望說農民為了我們這個土地做這些事情但是永遠被遺忘的一群可是在蔡英文政府上任之後一直到現在賴清德總統我相信我們沒有忘記這個區塊我們也一直在做只是我們的速度好像跟不上他們的期待那這個就問題來了"},{"start":210.407,"end":219.949,"text":"我們要怎麼做才能讓他們能夠符合他們的需求好 我們現在來談農民退休儲金"},{"start":222.704,"end":240.382,"text":"1對1跟1對1比51.5這樣的部分就是說我們的政府補貼是1.5還是1相對補貼這個我們到底增加多少錢現在是15.5億增加15.5億就增加15.5億那15.5億我們預計可以增加多少覆蓋率"},{"start":245.336,"end":257.903,"text":"沒有 我們15.5億是現在已經在提繳的因為現在已經在提繳的 我們要對等增加嘛對 好 那現在15.5億 那如果我們增加到1.5倍"},{"start":259.605,"end":274.211,"text":"那增加多少可能再增加8億左右增加8億那預計增加8億會有多少增加的覆蓋率我們應該這麼講從老保65歲以下而且是合格的人如果都保的話是22.3萬人"},{"start":276.552,"end":289.382,"text":"那現在是將近10萬9萬多9萬2千多人是15億嘛所以如果22萬都保的時候那增加的就是大概將近35億左右所以"},{"start":290.56,"end":313.608,"text":"你認為如果說全部都保進來是要增加35億是用我們1.5這樣的一個對等要增加35億那你認為我們提高了1.5有可能全部都進來嗎應該不會不會那預計可以增加多少我們在退休除菁我們有階段性目標我們希望說"},{"start":315.307,"end":328.559,"text":"這在117、118年能夠達到60%到65%那如果說現在1.5%如果說是成案的話我們希望預期是至少可以到70%到80%所以你們不反對嗎我們從來沒有反對說這樣的方式不好"},{"start":337.099,"end":363.457,"text":"對那現在有什麼爭議我們現在考慮的你們都不認為是不對的你們都不認為說這個部分不好而且是確實可以提高覆蓋率我想我們怎麼樣怎麼樣的提高政策的導入政策的誘因委員提的版本是1比1.5這是一個方式那我們也有另外想到一個方式就是總而不變之下我們的負擔多一點如果100 100都講100"},{"start":365.558,"end":374.867,"text":"然後以後他繳80我們繳120好那你提的政策增加多少預算那個大概6億6億跟8億會差很多嗎那哪一個效率會更多現在的15.5億大概差一半"},{"start":381.033,"end":395.913,"text":"那另外我們希望說不一定是二選一啦可能是可以合在一起部長好啦你們行政院農業部你們有方案那請問你們有提出嗎還在討論還在檢討"},{"start":398.016,"end":418.817,"text":"我們已經跟院長室那邊約時間了我們會先跟院長做專案報告如果方向確定的時候我們就會立即提出我們的版本那這個版本完了以後會經過包括因為這需要額外的經費嘛還要主計總處還要其他的單位去表示意見所以你們的版本大概是增加5億"},{"start":419.96,"end":434.476,"text":"不是 我們的版本有幾個一個就是委員的版本也許可以跟我們的版本做某個程度的融合啦那這個融合可能要經過行政院這邊初步的支持我們才能夠精算下去"},{"start":435.515,"end":457.655,"text":"所以你認為這是可以有調和版的對不對行政院有調和版那有一個調和版也可以增加我們的覆蓋率我們117年118年到達了60%到65%這樣的標準是不是調和版也是可以而且經費不用有那麼多的壓力是這樣嗎"},{"start":458.576,"end":487.197,"text":"是 因為以15.5億來講齁其實比起其他的重大建設 它的金額並不大啦齁 但是你講到重點了真的 部長你講到重點了今天 如果我們今天一億兩億在這邊論農民心在糖血啦是 他說齁 你一個大型建設 幾百億都在做啊啊你對我農民 你是一億兩億 讓我在那裡斤斤計較"},{"start":489.495,"end":494.041,"text":"這個其實是一個痛所以如果今天"},{"start":495.799,"end":516.567,"text":"我們站在執政的角度 我覺得我們就把它很清楚的講出來我們要到達117年 118年的60%到65%的覆蓋率我們要提出什麼樣的政策 大聲講出來不是真的問題是農民可以有信心嗎 農民有要加入我們這個農民退休儲金嗎我們有辦法達到讓他們安心嗎"},{"start":522.324,"end":541.175,"text":"是這個目標不是一億兩億三億四億這樣的問題而是要有一個完整的制度讓他們安心這才是最重要今天有很多是因為不安心否則為什麼農民退休儲金是比以前更好"},{"start":542.335,"end":558.849,"text":"以前沒有撥補啊以前沒有啊那是在蔡英文總統的時候我們提了這個農民退休儲金的制度有了撥補好那應該大家會一窩蜂想要進來可是為什麼還是覆蓋率沒有到達"},{"start":560.525,"end":574.727,"text":"過五成的部分 我們就要去想原因沒安心了所以當你要再提出版本 要做調和版你一定要有一個原則安心好 那現在這個版本什麼時候要提出"},{"start":575.677,"end":594.812,"text":"我想我們應該在順利的話應該在這個禮拜可以跟行政院做報告這個禮拜會跟行政院做報告然後報告以後如果說我們的想法是被支持的時候還是說需要調整我們可能也會立刻的去做調整然後再重新抱怨"},{"start":596.012,"end":619.183,"text":"所以我們的目標就是下個會期會送進來下個會期就是農民退休儲金制度的修正版我們也希望說連老農津貼的修正牌付的東西也一併送進來因為他不能單獨看這兩個要一起來看這個就是我要問你第二個問題今天這個牌付的部分"},{"start":620.191,"end":625.18,"text":"之前部長一直把他綁在八大福利津貼"},{"start":626.953,"end":650.199,"text":"這個是不是我把我們我們提出我們的版本是那現在我要問你的是現在你說的我們要一併討論我們現在可以排除跟他們脫鉤嗎對我們可以嗎我們我以農業部來講我們希望脫鉤當然當然我們希望脫鉤嘛但是我現在問你有沒有辦法脫鉤沒有那那不是要行政院要決定啊"},{"start":651.038,"end":657.944,"text":"因為不是我能決定我的希望說所以那你要你在這個禮拜跟行政院長談的時候你要一併談啊因為這兩個本來都是農民最重要的這是我們一向的立場就是說因為農民有他的特殊的產業所以我們希望說能夠適度的脫鉤啊但是"},{"start":671.477,"end":693.571,"text":"那你要一併談啊所以在這個老農今天你之前一直說你都支持你都支持可是因為他永遠把我們綁在八大社福津貼嘛好那既然現在要談我們農民退休儲金制度這本來就要一起談啊老農今天本來就要一起談啊在我們的排富的部分嘛那你要跟院長說這兩個要一起讓農民安心"},{"start":698.674,"end":723.011,"text":"這農民安心才能真正達到我們調和板的一個處理的機制好不好部長 你在這一次就是在整個排富條款一定要把那個整個拉高否則這個已經完全讓老農沒有辦法去認同我們政府說現在還有爸爸親親在在就有爸爸了 大家也把你排除掉是不是 部長好不好"},{"start":726.834,"end":751.523,"text":"可不可以啦我立場表達得非常清楚我們希望能夠幹流助理就是這個禮拜嘛 你就說是我們我們壓力的嘛 我們逼你的嘛沒錯 那你要去跟院長報告啊你在這個禮拜的報告是兩個一起提出來報告並行因為這是我們老農非常重要的一個依據我們農民非常重要的依據所以兩個一起跟行政院長報告你說這是"},{"start":753.544,"end":772.435,"text":"我們的委員在經濟委員會要求的然後跟院長報告看怎麼處理我們一定要一次而且那個差太多了所以拜託有而且喔如果由你來做發動不一定因為我們腦農今天的解掉"},{"start":773.456,"end":798.237,"text":"排富的解掉 會帶動八大福利 其他的七大福利基金 今天也解掉了這樣直接做工程 你知道嗎 部長這個禮拜喔 兩個一起報告結果怎麼樣 我們隨時要知道看到底是你們的問題 還是院長的問題嘛這樣我們就知道 要去找誰說啊要不然我們現在也不知道原因在哪裡"},{"start":799.656,"end":826.033,"text":"那我們每次提案就說 喔 還一下 要討論 要討論可是我們回去對農民來講 都沒辦法交代再拜託部長 這個禮拜就是我們的農民退休儲金制度我們的調和板 要怎麼讓我們的覆蓋率可以達到117年 118年我們的60%到65%然後我們的老農津貼 我們的排付條款一定要解掉"},{"start":827.214,"end":844.981,"text":"不能在這500萬一定要解掉要以現在的比例甚至每年都要做檢討我們的整個物調太快了嘛這個物調太快了 農民沒有辦法接受啦所以這個再拜託我們的部長 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":873,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時35分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，在討論農民退休儲金條例之前，我想還是要review一下蔡英文總統一直大力推動的各項保障農民政策，就是三保一金：健康保險、農業保險、職災保險還有農民退休儲金。這三保一金是從過去的農委會到農業部、從陳吉仲主委到陳駿季部長一直在努力的，所以我覺得今天有人常說修正農民退休儲金條例好像代表民進黨都沒做事，錯了！這三保一金我們努力很久，我覺得我們應該把這個前提跟大家說，也因為有我們當時的1比1補助，才有今天大家所討論的覆蓋率問題、要爭取達到1比1.5，所以我認為我們都要把前提講清楚，否則農民會忘記。我們這次討論覆蓋率，對於覆蓋率不足、不到五成，大家認為應該是對比補貼的問題，如果有更多誘因，包括政府補貼升到1.5倍，對民眾的誘因會更高、對農民的誘因會更高，所以才有這樣的討論依據。","我們從三保一金以來努力那麼久，過去根本不可能啦！有了健康保險，再來是農業保險，然後又有職災保險。過去農民看到勞工有職災保險，自己在烈日下曬到昏倒、送醫卻沒辦法有所謂的職災保險，可是現在可以了。此外有一些農作物，現在只要保險，發生農損就有相對應的保障，這在過去也沒有，然後還有農民的健康保險。其實就如我們一直在說的，我們希望農民更好，因為農民很辛苦，看天吃飯，我們都不希望農民為這塊土地做那麼多事情之後，卻永遠是被遺忘的一群，從蔡英文政府上任之後，一直到現在的賴清德總統，我相信我們沒有忘記這個區塊，也一直在做，只是我們的速度好像跟不上他們的期待。那問題就來啦！我們要怎麼做才能符合他們的需求？","現在來談農民退休儲金1對1跟1對1.5這個部分，政府補貼1.5還是1相對補貼？預算到底要增加多少錢？現在是15.5億元嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：增加15.5億元。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是增加15.5億元嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：增加15.5億元，預計可以增加多少覆蓋率？"],["陳部長駿季：15.5億元是現在已在提繳的，對於現在已經在提繳的，我們要對等增加。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，現在是15.5億元。如果增加到1.5倍，會增加多少？"],["陳部長駿季：可能要再增加8億元左右。"],["陳委員亭妃：增加8億元？"],["陳部長駿季：對，再增加8億元。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果增加8億元，預計會增加多少覆蓋率？"],["陳部長駿季：應該這麼講，就勞保而言，如果65歲以下且合格者都投保，是22.3萬人。現在將近十萬是九萬兩千多人，投保的預算是15億元，如果22萬人都投保，增加的大概就是35億元左右。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你認為如果全部都保進來要增加35億元，是因為用1.5這樣的對等比例計算出要增加35億元，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：那你認為提高到1.5之後，有可能全部都納進來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：應該不會。"],["陳委員亭妃：不會？那預計可以增加多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們針對退休儲金有階段性目標，希望在117年至118年覆蓋率能夠達到60%到65%。如果現在的1.5方案成案的話，我們的預期是至少可以達到70%至80%。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們不反對嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們從來沒有反對或說這樣的方式不好。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！那現在有什麼爭議？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在考慮的，我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們都不認為是不對的、你們都不認為這個方式不好，而且確實可以提高覆蓋率，那我們在爭議什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我想，問題在於怎麼樣提高導入政策的誘因，委員提的版本是1比1.5，這是一種方式，但我們也另外想到一個方式，就是在總額不變之下，我們負擔多一點，例如原本分別繳100元、100元，也就是都繳100元，以後就是農民繳80元、我們繳120元……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那你所提的政策會增加多少預算？"],["陳部長駿季：大概6億元左右，差不多一半。"],["陳委員亭妃：6億元跟8億元會差很多嗎？哪一種效益會更高？"],["陳部長駿季：不，是6億元跟現在的15.5億元相比，這樣大概差一半。","另外，我們希望不一定是二選一，可能可以合在一起……"],["陳委員亭妃：好啦！部長，你們行政院農業部有方案，那請問有提出嗎？還在討論、還在檢討？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經跟院長室約時間，會先向院長做專案報告，方向確定的時候，我們就會立即提出我們的版本，這個版本完成之後，因為需要額外經費，所以還要由主計總處與其他單位表示意見。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們的版本大概是增加5億元？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們的版本有幾個要點，委員的版本也許可以跟我們的版本做某個程度的融合，但這樣的融合可能要經過行政院這邊初步支持，我們才能精算下去。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你認為是可以有調和版的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我認為應該要有調和版。"],["陳委員亭妃：行政院會有調和版？"],["陳部長駿季：應該要有調和版。"],["陳委員亭妃：有一個調和版也可以增加覆蓋率，117年、118年可以達到60%至65%這樣的標準，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：調和版也可以，而且經費上不用承受那麼多壓力，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是，因為以15.5億元來講，比起其他重大建設，金額並不大，但是……"],["陳委員亭妃：你講到重點了！真的，部長講到重點了。如果我們今天在這邊論1億元、2億元，農民心會淌血啊！他們可能說，一項大型建設數百億元都在做，對農民卻為1億、2億斤斤計較，這其實是一個痛。今天站在執政角度，我覺得就要很清楚地講出如果要在117年、118年達到60%至65%的覆蓋率要提出什麼樣的政策，而且要大聲說出不是錢的問題，而是農民能不能有信心、農民是否要加入農民退休儲金、我們有沒有辦法讓他們安心？是這個目標！不是1億、2億、3億或4億這樣的問題，而是要有一個完整的制度讓他們安心，這才是最重要的。今天有很多問題是出於不安心，否則農民退休儲金其實比過去更好啊！以前沒有撥補，是在蔡英文總統的時候提了這項農民退休儲金的制度、有了撥補。那應該大家會一窩蜂想要進來，可是為什麼覆蓋率還是沒有達到5成？我們就要去想原因，因為不安心啊！所以當你要再提出版本，要做調和版，你一定要有一個原則，就是安心。請教這個版本什麼時候要提出？"],["陳部長駿季：順利的話，我想應該在這個禮拜可以跟行政院做報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個禮拜？"],["陳部長駿季：會跟行政院做報告，報告以後如果我們的想法有被支持還是需要調整，我們可能也會立刻的去做調整，然後再重新報院。"],["陳委員亭妃：這來來去去的時間大概要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的目標就是下個會期會送進來。"],["陳委員亭妃：下個會期？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是農民退休儲金制度的修正版。"],["陳部長駿季：我們也希望連老農津貼的修正排富這些也一併送進來，因為它不能單獨看，這兩個要一起來看。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個就是我要問你的第二問題，有關排富的部分，之前部長一直把它綁在八大福利津貼……"],["陳部長駿季：這不是我綁，我們提出我們的版本，但是行政院在考量的是……"],["陳委員亭妃：現在我要問你的，你說我們要一併討論，我們現在可以排除跟他們脫鉤嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：以農業部來講，我們希望脫鉤。"],["陳委員亭妃：當然我們希望脫鉤嘛，但是我現在問你有沒有辦法脫鉤？"],["陳部長駿季：那是行政院要決定啊，因為不是我能決定，我是希望……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你在這個禮拜跟行政院長談的時候，你要一併談啊，這兩個本來都是農民最重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：這是我們一向的立場，因為農民有特殊的產業……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們希望能夠適度的脫鉤，但是……"],["陳委員亭妃：那你要一併談啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，行政院考慮的是另外一個方法。"],["陳委員亭妃：你之前一直說你都支持、你都支持，可是因為他永遠把我們綁在八大社福津貼嘛，既然現在要談農民退休儲金制度，這本來就要一起談、老農津貼本來就要一起談啊！在我們排富的部分，那你要跟院長說，這兩個要一起讓農民安心，農民安心才能真正達到我們調和版的處理機制，部長，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力取得行政院支持。"],["陳委員亭妃：你在這一次排富條款一定要把整個拉高，否則這已經完全讓老農沒有辦法去認同，政府現在還說500萬、「凊凊彩彩」就500萬了，大家都把你排除掉了，是不是？部長，好不好？可不可以啦？"],["陳部長駿季：我的立場表達得非常清楚，我們希望能夠……"],["陳委員亭妃：就是這個禮拜嘛，你就說是我們給你壓力的嘛、是我們逼你的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：但是決定權不在我啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯，那你要去跟院長報告啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會講。"],["陳委員亭妃：你在這個禮拜的報告是兩個一起提出來報告，並且因為這是我們老農非常重要的一個依據，我們農民非常重要的依據，所以兩個一起跟行政院長報告，你說這是委員在經濟委員會要求的，然後跟院長報告看怎麼處理，我們一定要一次做，而且那個差太多了，所以拜託了。而且如果由你來做發動，不一定會因為老農津貼的解掉、排富的解掉，而會帶動其他七大福利基金也解掉了，這樣你是在做公德耶，你知不知道？部長！"],["陳部長駿季：我了解啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：這個禮拜喔，兩個一起報告，結果怎麼樣？我們隨時要知道，看到底是你們的問題還是院長的問題，這樣我們就知道要去找誰說啊，要不然我們現在也不知道原因在哪裡，我們每次提案，你們就說緩一下，還要討論、要討論，可是我們回去對農民都沒辦法交代。再拜託部長，這個禮拜就是農民退休儲金制度的調和版，要怎麼讓我們的覆蓋率到117年、118年可以達到60%到65%，然後我們的老農津貼、排富條款一定要解掉，不能限在這500萬，一定要解掉，要以現在的比例，甚至每年都要做檢討，我們整個物調太快了嘛、物調太快了，農民沒有辦法接受，所以這個再拜託部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。","現在請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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陳代主委主委好 午安好我知道今天事實上是審法案啦但我有一個很重要的問題想要來就教於主委所以我今天要問的是NCC的網傳辦公室具體的政策目標跟計畫成果在哪裡還有IWIN法人化的進度呢"},{"start":31.735,"end":55.708,"text":"好 那跟委員回答我們在113年4月14日網傳辦公室成立我們訂定了五個目標第一個是促進多方利害關係人共識治理模式第二個是促進平台業者之力第三個是協助政府機關來共同維護等一下我也會讓你有機會再細講我會這樣子問是因為今年1月底"},{"start":56.829,"end":73.935,"text":"媒體的報導說前任的陳耀祥主委有提到確定要做要將iWIN法人化因為原本兒少全法第46條本來就是為了防止兒少接觸有害身心健康的網路內容的有要求"},{"start":75.255,"end":85.178,"text":"要有一個內容防護機構所以目前委託台北市電腦工會去做這個iWIN就是現在的iWIN那陳謙主委表示說現行委託的經費雖然有1520萬元但這樣的經費抓緊見軸"},{"start":92.12,"end":116.505,"text":"雖然iWIN目前是由台北市電腦工會來承辦效果不錯可是長期下來不利於整個的傳承所以為了形成一個網路共同治理的長期長遠的架構NCC在2023年4月成立了網際網路網傳辦公室也預計要將iWIN的財團法人復化所以主委我想問你說你同不同意這個政策的延續"},{"start":117.994,"end":141.727,"text":"我們同意因為目前網路那你同意的話那這個同意的話那IWIN的財團法人立法目前有沒有進度啊我們在院裡頭報給行政院知道院裡頭有一些要我們收集相關部會的回饋意見來做一些處理那目前還在跟這方面的意見的一些釐清跟協調處理當中"},{"start":143.788,"end":162.826,"text":"不過網傳辦公室從2023年成立到現在兩年多成立之後到底要做什麼呢所以前面我們大家就提到2023年4月去成立網傳辦公室根據你們NCC你們自己給我的報告網傳辦公室依據這些口號性的三大願景四大"},{"start":163.346,"end":190.833,"text":"理念跟五大目標在運作那想問兩年了因為你們的同仁也來我們辦公室我有請他去說明結果他說你們主要內容只有網路政策研究可是列了又這麼多的項目最後跟我講說只有網路政策研究所以那我就回來先單純問網路政策研究現在有沒有什麼具體的研究成果還有有什麼重大方面的規劃跟進展要"},{"start":191.593,"end":216.948,"text":"有提報到行政院這個成果到底是什麼其實我們突然反映的只是一部分我們目前比較具體的有很多比方說我們跟衛福部合作自殺防制專線今年3月14日上線那今年也會再增加一個網路新聞的申訴的部分的處理那未來相關部會的其他申訴我們也會慢慢罵入那另外在國際參與部分我們也加入這個"},{"start":220.09,"end":245.8,"text":"然後第三個部分我們也在跟韓國跟數位部一起來簽訂這個打擊數位性犯罪的共同聲明那其他部分宣導對業者端對民眾端我們都有持續在辦主委你剛剛有提到你們現在已經有跟韓國簽訂了嗎就我知道我們目前一直從警政或者衛福部那邊都還知道說韓國這一塊還沒有簽訂所以你現在確定是共同聲明是有已經發生過"},{"start":247.717,"end":267.035,"text":"那我再問就是說為什麼我會問說具體的研究成果延續上一頁你們網傳辦公室究竟跟iWIN的分工到底是什麼因為目前你們還是委託因為我在上任前就有問說你們當初成立網傳辦公室是一個搭iWIN的概念"},{"start":268.016,"end":282.69,"text":"獲得40人的編制喔還說未來是要規劃要取代iWIN的功能喔就不會有各部會要出資委託iWIN的情況現在iWIN事實上是有經濟部衛福部教育部你們通傳會跟內政部都委託他們"},{"start":283.792,"end":305.273,"text":"可是他編制只有13個人可是相對的這些他的有些工作內容你現在要提這個網傳辦公室甚至以後要大IWIN的概念上的話那這一工作內容是不是跟IWIN還有速發部是高度重疊可是IWIN現在用13個人來接受了五部會的一個委託他經費只有1500萬可是做的"},{"start":307.455,"end":328.087,"text":"iWIN做的是這樣包山包海 比你網傳辦公室還要多很多你們又一直說跟我們辦公室報告說你們不能成為兒少網路管理的主管機關主則單位要分散到各部會區所以想問你們這個定位你們到底對你們的網傳辦公室的定位甚至iWIN的定位到底是什麼"},{"start":328.527,"end":356.207,"text":"好 簡單跟委員回報幾點 第一點IWINT它主要的權責是兒少的保護是那個兒少法46條那我們這邊網傳辦公室的是它的範圍是更廣 是在我們組織法裡頭規定說我們要做對網際網路政策相關的網際網路傳播政策的相關的一些研修一些工作事項所以主委我這一篇列的六項都是你們的工作內容嗎因為上次你們工作同仁來我們辦公室講說你們只有"},{"start":357.127,"end":371.022,"text":"只在做網路研究網路政策研究那現在我再度的跟你確認這六項都是你的工作內容嗎有去促進網路平台業者自律嗎有那我覺得會後"},{"start":372.603,"end":396.964,"text":"拜託請你們這邊提供我資料所以我要求就是NCC在一週內提出網際辦公室編制內40人的具體工作內容跟分工是什麼還提出我們的網傳辦公室已經做了哪些計畫跟成果因為兩年了嘛還未來你們具體政策目標跟預計成效然後一個月內提出IWIN法人化的進度"},{"start":397.785,"end":402.216,"text":"有沒有辦法我們會提出順利報告好 謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時38分）主席，麻煩請陳代理主任委員。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：主委，午安。我知道今天是要審查法案，但我有一個很重要的問題想要就教主委。NCC網傳辦公室具體的政策目標及計畫成果在哪裡？還有iWIN法人化的進度呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們在113年4月14日成立網傳辦公室，並且訂定了5個目標，第一個是促進多方利害關係人共識治理模式，第二個是促請平台業者自律，第三個是協助政府機關共同維護……"],["林委員月琴：好，等一下我會讓你有機會再細講。我會這樣提問，是因為今年1月底媒體報導，前任陳耀祥主委提到確定要將iWIN法人化，因為原本兒少權法第四十六條本來就是為了防止兒少接觸有害身心健康的網路內容，要求要有一個內容防護機構，所以目前委託臺北市電腦公會做現在這個iWIN，陳前主委表示，現行委託經費雖然有1,520萬元，但這樣的經費捉襟見肘，雖然iWIN目前是由臺北市電腦公會承辦，效果不錯，可是長期下來不利於傳承。為了形成一個網路共同治理的長遠架構，NCC在2023年4月成立了網際網路傳播辦公室，也預計要將iWIN財團法人化。所以，主委，我想問你，你同不同意這個政策的延續？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們同意，因為目前網路越來越普及……"],["林委員月琴：好，你同意的話，目前iWIN財團法人的立法有沒有進度？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們報給行政院之後，院裡要我們蒐集一些相關部會的回饋意見處理，目前還在做這方面意見的釐清跟協調處理當中。"],["林委員月琴：網傳辦公室從2023年成立到現在兩年多，成立之後到底要做什麼呢？前面我們提到2023年4月成立網傳辦公室，根據NCC自己給我的報告，網傳辦公室依據這些口號性的三大願景、四大理念跟五大目標在運作。兩年了，你們的同仁也來我們辦公室說明，結果他說你們的主要內容只有網路政策研究，可是又列了這麼多項目，最後卻跟我說只有網路政策研究。我就先單純地問，網路政策研究現在有沒有什麼具體的研究成果？還有，有什麼重大規劃跟進展有提報到行政院？這個成果到底是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實我們那位同仁反映的只是一部分，我們目前比較具體的有很多，比方說我們跟衛福部合作自殺防治專線，今年3月14上線，今年也會再增加一個網路新聞申訴處理，未來相關部會的其他申訴，我們也會慢慢納入，另外在國際參與部分，我們也加入GOSRN，第三個部分，我們也跟韓國、跟數位部一起簽訂打擊數位性犯罪的共同聲明，其他部分，對業者端、對民眾端的宣導，我們都有持續辦理。"],["林委員月琴：主委，你剛剛有提到你們現在已經有跟韓國簽訂，就我知道，我們目前從警政或者衛福部那邊知道的是韓國這一塊還沒有簽訂，所以你現在確定……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是共同聲明，是有，已經發生過了。"],["林委員月琴：好。為什麼我會問具體的研究成果？你們網傳辦公室跟iWIN的分工到底是什麼？因為目前你們還是委託，你們當初成立網傳辦公室是一個大iWIN的概念，獲得40人的編制，還說未來是規劃要取代iWIN的功能，就不會有各部會要出資委託iWIN的情況。現在iWIN事實上經濟部、衛福部、教育部、通傳會跟內政部都有委託，可是它的編制只有13個人。相對的，現在提這個網傳辦公室，甚至以後要大iWIN的概念的話，這些工作內容是不是跟iWIN和數發部高度重疊？iWIN現在用13個人接受5個部會的委託，經費只有1,500萬，可是iWIN做的事包山包海，比你網傳辦公室還要多很多，你們又向我們辦公室報告，說你們不能成為兒少網路管理的主管機關、主責單位，要分散到各部會去，所以想問你們，你們對網傳辦公室的定位，甚至iWIN的定位到底是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：簡單跟委員回報幾點，第一點，iWIN主要權責是兒少保護，是兒少法第四十六條，我們這邊網傳辦公室的範圍更廣，是在組織法裡規定我們要做網際網路傳播政策一些相關的研析工作事項，是在組織法裡……"],["林委員月琴：主委，我這邊列的6項都是你們的工作內容嗎？上次你們同仁來我們辦公室，說你們只做網路政策研究，現在我再度地跟你確認，這6項都是你們的工作內容嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，就是在我們……"],["林委員月琴：有去促進網路平臺業者自律嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["林委員月琴：會後拜託請你們提供我資料，我要求NCC在一週內，提出網際網路辦公室編制內40人的具體工作內容跟分工是什麼，還要提出網傳辦公室已經做了哪些計畫跟成果，因為兩年了，還有未來你們的具體政策目標跟預計成效，一個月內提出iWIN法人化的進度，有沒有辦法？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會如期提出書面報告。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴質詢。","鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","現在登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員游顥、王鴻薇所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請國家通訊傳播委員會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":514,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","黃國昌","李昆澤","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","黃健豪","許智傑","徐富癸","林國成","邱若華","林月琴","游顥","王鴻薇","黃健豪"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理 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沒有共識所以呢 我很高興今天就是看到教育部的解凍書面報告有提到規劃"},{"start":74.722,"end":102.949,"text":"台灣原住民族學校制度規劃之研究整合型研究計畫那特別提到從國際趨勢學校型態的運作課程與教學設計師資的培育教材的發展以及校長培訓等等議題我覺得計畫案很重要那這個部分可以幫助我們去釐清但是我也是要提到就是說我另外有兩個要求"},{"start":103.891,"end":109.561,"text":"就是原住民族實驗學校至今已經幾十所了"},{"start":110.732,"end":139.011,"text":"國小國中現在甚至已經要有高中的原住民族實驗學校了那我的意思是說2016年開始補助推動到明年就屆滿10年而且呢辦法裡面補助實驗學校是補助12年那但是補助幾年這個還不是重點而是說到底這些原住民實驗學校都已經從國小國中長到高中"},{"start":142.113,"end":161.544,"text":"他的定位到底在哪裡所以我覺得這個部分也希望部長您可以編列經費這個計畫很重要也要來做那再來呢就是這一些年我們實驗學校有各種不同的實驗理念做法"},{"start":162.905,"end":176.357,"text":"開發出各式各樣的課程 教材 教法但是有沒有可能也用計畫案要去計畫 去研究看看他們這一些課程的模組"},{"start":177.338,"end":184.6,"text":"到底有什麼地方是可以讓大家互相看到哪一種做法有什麼優點有什麼缺點應該怎麼做我認為這一些都應該要比照就是來做一個整合型的研究計畫部長您同意嗎"},{"start":196.055,"end":218.637,"text":"部長您同意嗎我完全同意委員的說法原住民族他的文化的多樣性跟他的整個人才的一個培育能夠怎麼樣讓凸顯他的一個價值我想這都是原民會跟教育部共同在努力那剛才委員所關心的原住民族學校制度這一個基本上是"},{"start":220.279,"end":234.738,"text":"研明會在跟這個國教院上的一些合作我們也非常希望能夠理出一個更好的一些模式那目前教育部在原住民的實驗學校裡面國中小有48所"},{"start":235.899,"end":262.792,"text":"那確實我們這些年來也對這個原住民教育我想委員也長期關心像我也來到520到現在去八蘭花學校裡邊也去看了這原住民學校這個學校裡邊確實他們展現了不管不僅在原住民族文化上的保留結合現有的課程永續校園包含國際教育都做得非常好所以我們也一直期待這一個"},{"start":263.812,"end":281.944,"text":"第一所的這個實驗原住民的實驗學校能夠在八蘭花裡面就先能夠成立那麼國教署在這個部分也全力的在支持希望能夠朝那個方向能夠來讓原住民在整個教育的一個銜接上"},{"start":282.604,"end":305.018,"text":"謝謝部長所以部長的意思是說願意來支持我剛才所講的不僅僅是原住民族學校制度的研究計劃案來支持原住民族這些實驗學校明年即將屆滿10年那麼它的何去何從這個部分也要成立一個計劃案再來就是這些年"},{"start":305.658,"end":324.825,"text":"各個學校所研發的這些課程教材教法也希望有一個計劃案能夠去做一個整合分析這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告是可以的那就謝謝因為課程我們現在有很多的這些每年都有在爭研究院的一個教材"},{"start":325.225,"end":328.887,"text":"我希望有一個整合型的研究計畫我衝個10秒一下 國研剛才講的民族學校的部分現在是園民會的權責那正跟國教院就一些學術上的合作這個計畫剛剛部長有表達樂觀其成也會到辦公室做說明至於教育部的權責48所實驗學校的部分剛剛部長有特別講到像八南華這邊很有誠的學校我們會從旁就這48校所進行的這過往"},{"start":354.541,"end":383.28,"text":"實驗的情形就一些整理這個我們也會跟國教院來合作那就委託國教院我希望能夠做這些計畫案好不好因為院長也在這邊那第二個部分我也要來跟部長就是來做一個建議其實我在2016年就是我離開學校的最後一年我有跟當時的部長有去做一個建言我說因為我們已經在推動民主教育"},{"start":384.281,"end":402.83,"text":"而且是全面的推展 園民會教育部都非常的給力可是我們的學習場域像我們這些校舍都是早期1960 1970 1980年代的這一些非常樣板一致的這種校舍"},{"start":403.61,"end":423.985,"text":"所以在推動民族教育很重要的就是文化學習場域所以特別希望能夠推動一個原住民學校的新校園運動那這個是一個中長期計畫106到110已經結束那110到114也就是到今年呢它的名稱叫做營造原住民族文化學習場域計畫"},{"start":425.606,"end":445.878,"text":"就是將課程教學結合到學校場域那提供各個學校可以來申請經費但是我今天要講的是因為它過去補助的對象是原住民重點學校以及非原住民重點學校要原民學生達70人以上的都會學校那這個部分"},{"start":446.798,"end":460.278,"text":"我在想因為這八年來大概幾乎所有的學校都有來申請可是我們來看一下這些都會區的學校像新北市我們可以看得到街道的學校學生如果要達到70人以上"},{"start":462.697,"end":481.291,"text":"沒有幾個學校符合就兩間三間在我們的六都幾乎都是如此可是有沒有學校想要去為他們的原住民孩子以及非原住民孩子在學校能夠去建置這樣的一個文化學校長譽有的"},{"start":483.012,"end":500.763,"text":"所以呢 依然有學校有這個心他們會來跟我們澄清說教育部 國教署能不能夠也提供他們一些經費那我很贊同的原因是我們一直談全民原教 全民原教"},{"start":502.199,"end":523.135,"text":"原住民族教育法的對象不是原住民而已是全體國民所以這樣的一個訴求我認為非常的合理那部長你覺得如果未來115年度開始新一期的中長城計畫能不能夠去納入所有的學校"},{"start":525.592,"end":549.575,"text":"我想感謝委員的這個提醒確實我完全同意委員所提的我們這個台灣的可貴就是來自於多元族群多元文化它的美就是因為大家不一樣然後能夠彼此認識透過認識理解欣賞然後甚至能夠有一些推廣"},{"start":550.296,"end":563.246,"text":"那原住民學校如果我們一般的學生學校裡邊都會的學校裡邊他對原住民教育或者文化上的推動我想我們會來編列一些相關的學會我覺得可以用幾句學生數的幾句來協助這個我們的"},{"start":569.03,"end":585.944,"text":"謝謝 謝謝部長那最後一個問題就是關於大家很關心的校事會議部長您先看一下前陣子我們幾個委員處理台東的一個學前特幼班的兒虐案那調查報告已經出來了那是"},{"start":587.606,"end":606.168,"text":"確有歧視那整個處置也都完畢我只是要請您看一下這個是法定代理人也就是家長他拿到的調查報告六頁啊你看一下馬承這個樣子家長說他完全不知道孩子到底發生了什麼事"},{"start":607.972,"end":630.589,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們也要約束規範一下啦我怎麼知道他到底碼的是不是真的需要碼的我想這個部分您了解一下那為什麼我要提到這個問題因為我們的幼教輔導管教系統在處理這些案件其實也有人詬病說"},{"start":632.231,"end":653.694,"text":"會造成兩種極端就是真正不適應的教師就像剛才這個碼的六張這個報告得不到真相那也有一些是無辜的他可能遭到濫訴覺得身心俱疲那我們來看一下國小的校安通報關於師生管教衝突"},{"start":656.161,"end":684.053,"text":"110年2171件111年成長到2524件我要特別講112年4120件我還沒看到113年的資料數據但是這樣的一個成長的比率實在是很驚人所以為什麼很多人關心這件事情那我們來看一下為什麼會這樣當然我們可以理解"},{"start":685.29,"end":709.722,"text":"公立學校教室被調查的流程我們都知道有的是家長陳情就做校方通報有的是家長直接跟教育局投訴那他有他的流程現在重點是到了校事會議的時候我們很多的學校會感到很困擾那為什麼會困擾因為就是濫訴"},{"start":711.499,"end":712.902,"text":"他會覺得可能費時費錢"},{"start":715.987,"end":742.165,"text":"那這個部分我有看到教育部有回應教育部說113年修正的高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或之前辦法有明定了已經有寫了就是說可以不受理的事項例如非屬性平肢體霸凌的這種是一定要受理的但是有很多是沒有具體內容有很多是匿名卷舉"},{"start":744.286,"end":762.714,"text":"像這種的當然學校可以不受理可是我要跟部長報告的就是說幾乎全部都會成案因為就像我這種民意代表地方的議員他很怕上媒體然後很怕民代施壓關切"},{"start":764.597,"end":786.8,"text":"所以乾脆通通受理 通通懲案 學校不敢負擔其責任然後在這個當中 他要學校的校事會議 校長 家長的代表行政人員代表 學校教師代表 一個是公正人士也就是說五位當中 他只會評五位 因為每一個都要錢嘛"},{"start":787.641,"end":796.429,"text":"學校還要負擔那個出席費用所以呢他通常就是盡量五個人三個人那這當中四個人"},{"start":797.714,"end":820.391,"text":"我們原本期待校士會議是中立的可是我剛剛講的校長家長的代表行政人員學校教師會本來我們期待他們中立但是他們不敢中立而且他們的關係很緊密所以我講這些只是說其實很多很多在意的只是什麼它的核心是什麼就是不希望爛訴"},{"start":822.012,"end":837.065,"text":"不希望冤枉然後呢 不希望造成學校的一個很大的行政負擔或心理的壓力我想那個核心是在這個地方因為太多的投訴會說長太高這個不適合教幼兒園的老師"},{"start":843.719,"end":860.651,"text":"校方也不知道到底要呈案還是不呈案或者是說控訴某個老師他不教孩子唱國歌之類的那對學校來講到底呈案不呈案到底是不是具體的內容這個很辛苦所以我在這邊就是提到"},{"start":861.371,"end":880.966,"text":"我的訴求就是說針對目前教師這一些校事會議的投訴校事會議受理案件的樣態那教育部是不是應該可以做一個相關統計然後做一個處遇指引的手冊那我先請教一下部長有沒有做過這個相關的統計署長"},{"start":884.662,"end":901.792,"text":"我簡單說明一下兩件事第一個新的解併辦法它是因應當時不當管教走一條路霸凌走一條路現場不堪其擾走不會完所以把它合併之後獲得大家的認同"},{"start":902.572,"end":920.521,"text":"那接著是學校內怎麼讓這件事其實一個案件到底走考核還走解聘他本來就已經在做只是整合在這個解聘辦法內所以剛剛委員有看到受不受理以及決定走考核或決定走"},{"start":921.461,"end":941.708,"text":"停解聘都在那個辦法內因此他前端做案件的整合不要有多個委員會在終端做剛才講的處置上可以由學校決定只要走考核就好不用整理調查小組所以整套如果嚴謹的執行是去解決以往來的不利至於您剛才提到現行"},{"start":942.788,"end":960.476,"text":"這個去年4月19號運作至今超過一年部長也要求我們可以做一個檢視是這個目前在做整理中好謝謝好那很好我就是希望說不要造成校方的一個困擾那最好就是有已經走了一年了那有相關的統計樣態的一個分類處遇的指引原則畢竟"},{"start":965.738,"end":985.767,"text":"孩子是我們最重要的有快樂的老師才有快樂的孩子那我覺得學校畢竟是我們學校的老師是學校最重要的資產我們都是要來服務我們的孩子所以我想這個部分希望說能夠去重視爛素這樣的一個狀態那怎麼樣去改善這個才是一個我們最關切的部分"},{"start":991.59,"end":994.791,"text":"好 那在這邊就謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員的質詢 觀眾請回座我們接下來有請羅廷偉委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時22分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。部長，原住民族教育法有提到要成立原住民族學校，在蔡英文總統2016年上任之後，其實在他的政見裡面就有提到要做原住民族學校。賴清德總統去年520的政見中，也揭露、提到要建立雙軌的原住民教育體系。他是提到，要以原住民的文化、語言、知識、體系為核心的來推動原住民族學校。可是經歷了這麼長的時間，立法院也曾經提案和排審，但是都不了了之，最主要的原因就是大家對於什麼是原住民族學校？原住民族學校要怎麼做？沒有一個定見和共識。所以我很高興今天看到教育部的解凍書面報告中有提到「規劃臺灣原住民族學校制度規劃之研究整合型研究計畫」，裡面有特別提到國際趨勢、學校型態的運作、課程與教學設計、師資的培育、教材的發展，以及校長培訓等等議題。","我覺得計畫案很重要，這個部分可以幫助我們去釐清，但是我還是要提到，我另外有2個要求，就是原住民族實驗學校至今已經幾十所了，國小、國中，現在甚至已經要有高中的原住民族實驗學校了。我的意思是說，2016年開始補助推動，到明年就屆滿10年，而且辦法裡面是補助實驗學校12年，但是補助幾年這個還不是重點，而是說這些原住民族實驗學校都已經從國小、國中長到高中，它何去何從？它的定位到底在哪裡？所以我希望這個部分部長可以編列經費，這個計畫很重要，也要來做。","再來，這些年實驗學校有各種不同的實驗理念、作法，開發出各式各樣的課程、教材和教法，但是有沒有可能也用計畫案來計畫、研究這些課程的模組，到底有什麼地方是可以讓大家互相來看，哪一種作法有什麼優點？有什麼缺點？應該怎麼做？我認為這一些都應該要比照並做一個整合性的研究計畫，部長你同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全同意委員的說法。原住民族文化的多樣性和人才的培育，要怎麼樣突顯它的價值？我想這都是原民會跟教育部共同在努力的。剛才委員所關心的原住民族學校的制度，基本上，這是原民會跟國教院的合作，我們也非常希望能夠理出一個更好的模式。以目前教育部的原住民族實驗學校來說，國中小有48所，確實這些年來，我們對於原住民族的教育、委員也長期關心，像520之後我也有去巴楠花學校看過原住民族學校，在這個學校裡面，確實，他們不僅展現了他們在原住民族文化上的保留、結合現有的課程、永續校園，包含國際教育，都做得非常好。所以我們也一直期待第一所的原住民族實驗學校能夠先在巴楠花裡面成立，這個部分國教署也全力支持，希望能夠朝那個方向讓原住民的教育銜接能夠有更好的發展。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。所以部長的意思是說，願意支持我剛才所講的，不僅僅是原住民族學校制度的研究計畫案，因為原住民族實驗學校明年即將屆滿10年，它何去何從？這個部分也要成立一個計畫案。再來就是這些年，各個學校所研發的課程、教材和教法，也希望能夠有一個計畫案來做整合及分析，這樣可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，這是可以的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那就謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：因為我們現在有很多的、我們每年都有在徵原住民的教材。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望能有一個整合型的研究計畫案……"],["彭署長富源：我補充一下。委員剛才講的民族學校的部分，現在是原民會的權責，他們現在正跟國教院就學術在合作，這個計畫剛才部長也有表達樂觀其成，我們也會到委員的辦公室做說明。至於教育部的權責，就是48所實驗學校的部分，剛才部長也有特別的講到，像巴楠花這種有成的學校，我們會從旁就這48校過往所進行的實驗情形做一些整理，這個我們也會跟國教院合作，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那就委託國教院，我希望能夠做這些計畫案，好不好？因為院長也在這邊。","第二個部分，我也要跟部長做一個建議。其實我在2016年，就是我離開學校的最後一年，我有跟當時的部長做過建言，我說：因為我們已經在推動民族教育，而且是全面的推展，原民會和教育部都非常給力。可是我們的學習場域，像我們的這些校舍都是早期1960年、1970年、1980年代，這些非常樣版、一致的校舍，但是在推動原民教育很重要的就是文化學習場域，所以我特別希望能夠推動「原住民學校新校園運動」。這是一個中長期的計畫，106年到110年已經結束，110年到114年，也就是到今年，它的名稱叫做：「營造原住民族文化學習場域計畫」，就是將課程教學結合到學校場域，提供各個學校可以來申請經費。但是我今天要講的是，因為過去它補助的對象是原住民重點學校，以及非原住民重點學校原民學生達70人以上的都會學校，但是這個部分，因為這8年來，幾乎所有的學校都有來申請，可是我們來看一下這些都會區的學校，像新北市，我們可以看到，其實學校的原民學生如果要達到70人以上，沒有幾個學校符合，就2間、3間，六都幾乎都是如此。可是有沒有學校想要去為他們的原住民孩子，以及非原住民的孩子在學校裡建置這樣的文化學習場域？有的，依然有學校有這個心，所以他們就來跟我們陳情說，教育部國教署能不能夠也提供他們一些經費？我很贊同的原因是，我們一直在談「全民原教」、「全民原教」，原住民族教育法的對象不是只有原住民而已，而是全體國民，所以這樣的一個訴求，我認為非常合理。部長，你覺得如果從115年度開始，新一期的中長程計畫能不能夠納入所有的學校？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的提醒。確實，我完全同意委員所提的，臺灣的可貴就是來自於多元族群，多元文化的美就是因為大家不一樣，然後能夠彼此認識，透過認識、理解與欣賞，然後甚至能夠有一些推廣。原住民學校、如果是在一般的學校裡面、都會區的學校要推廣原住民教育或文化，我想我們會編列相關的經費。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我覺得可以用級距、學生數。"],["鄭部長英耀：中央和地方看要怎麼樣來協助，這個我們樂於協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長。最後一個問題就是有關大家都很關心的「校事會議」，部長，你先看一下，前陣子我們幾個委員處理臺東一個學前特幼班的兒虐案，調查報告已經出來了，確有其事，整個也都處置完畢。我只是要請你看一下，這個是法定代理人、也就是家長拿到的調查報告，6頁，你看一下，碼成這個樣子！家長說他完全不知道孩子到底發生什麼事？所以這個部分，我想我們也要約束規範一下，我怎麼知道他碼的是不是真的需要碼的？我想這個部分你瞭解一下。","為什麼我要提到這個問題？因為我們的幼教輔導管教系統在處理這些案子時，其實也有人詬病說，這會造成兩種極端，就是真正不適任的教師，就像剛才碼了6張的這個報告得不到真相。也有一些是無辜的，他可能是遭到濫訴，覺得身心俱疲。我們來看一下國小的校安通報，有關師生管教的衝突。110年2,171件，111年成長到2,524件，我要特別的講112年4,120件，我還沒有看到113年的資料數據，但這樣的成長比例實在是很驚人，所以為什麼很多人都關心這件事情。","我們來看一下，為什麼會這樣？當然，我們可以理解公立學校教師被調查的流程，我們都知道，有的是家長陳情就做校方通報；有的是家長直接跟教育局投訴，它有它的流程。現在的重點是到了校事會議的時候，有很多學校都感到很困擾，為什麼會困擾？因為濫訴，它覺得費時、費錢，這個部分我看到教育部有回應，教育部說113年修正的高級中等以下學校教師解聘、不續聘、停聘或資遣辦法有明定了，已經有寫了可以不受理事項，例如非屬性平肢體霸凌的，這種是一定要受理的，但是有很多是沒有具體內容；有很多是匿名檢舉，像這種的，當然學校可以不受理，可是，我要跟部長報告的就是，幾乎全部都會成案，因為就像我這種民意代表、地方的議員，他很怕上媒體，然後很怕民代施壓、關切，所以呢？乾脆就統統受理、統統成案，學校不敢負責任。在這當中，學校的校事會議，校長、家長代表、行政人員代表、學校教師代表、一個公正人士，也就是說5位當中、它只會聘5位，因為每一個都要錢嘛！學校還要負擔出席的費用，所以通常都是儘量只聘5個人、3個人，在這當中的4個人，原本我們是期待校事會議是中立的，可是我剛剛講的校長、家長代表、行政人員、學校教師會，本來我們是期待他們中立，但是他們不敢中立，而且他們的關係很緊密。","我講這些只是想說，其實很多、很多在意的只是什麼？它的核心是什麼？就是不希望濫訴、不希望冤枉，然後不希望造成學校很大的行政負擔或是心裡的壓力，我想核心是在這個地方。甚至投訴說老師長太高，不適合當幼兒園的老師，校方也不知道到底要不要成案？或者控訴某個老師不教孩子唱國歌之類的，對學校來講，這到底要成不成案？到底是不是具體的內容？這個很辛苦。所以我在這邊要提出我的訴求：針對目前校事會議的這些投訴，校事會議受理案件的樣態，教育部是不是應該做相關的統計，然後做出處遇指引的手冊？我先請教一下部長，你們有沒有做過相關的統計？署長？"],["彭署長富源：我先簡單的說明一下兩件事：第一個，新的解聘辦法是因應當時不當管教走一條路、霸凌走一條路，現場不堪其擾，走不完，所以把它合併之後，獲得大家的認同。接著是學校內要怎麼讓這件事、其實一個案件到底是走考核？還是走解聘？它本來就已經在做，只是整合在這個解聘辦法內，所以剛剛委員有看到受不受理？以及決定走考核？或是決定走停解聘？這些都在那個辦法內，因此，它前端做案件的整合，不要有多個委員會。在終端，剛才講的處置可以由學校決定，只走考核就好，不用成立調查小組，所以如果整套嚴謹的執行，那是可以解決以往的不利。","至於你剛剛提到的現行辦法，這個辦法去年4月19日運作至今已經超過1年，部長也要求我們可以做一個檢視，這個目前已經在整理中，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那很好，我就是希望不要造成校方的困擾。這個辦法已經走了1年，要有相關的統計樣態分類、處遇的指引原則，畢竟最重要的是孩子，有快樂的老師，才有快樂的孩子！老師是學校最重要的資產，都是要來服務我們的孩子，所以我希望能夠重視濫訴的狀態，看要怎麼樣改善，這個才是我們最關切的部分，在這邊就謝謝部長、署長和主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。官員請回座。","接下來有請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"162004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24ba9e511826f8c65959eeaad68db6e97f87f2bf784d93fc3012bc3142334557935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:31:48 - 11:38:22","影片長度":"00:06:34","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算凍結案計15案。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結案計2案。\n三、繼續審查(一)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「電信管理法第五條、第八條及第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「電信管理法第五條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「電信管理法第五條、第九條及第七十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「電信管理法第九條及第四十條條文修正草案」案及(五)委員陳俊宇等19人擬具「電信管理法第七十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅針對開會事由二進行詢答，詢答後進行審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T11:31:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T11:38:22+08:00","duration":394,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.047218750000001,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.56159375,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.73784375,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.711593750000002,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.33596875,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.58034375,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.28471875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.22096875,"end":26.777843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.26721875,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.726593750000003,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.89471875,"end":35.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.400968750000004,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.28659375,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.50596875,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.657843750000005,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.96159375,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.002843750000004,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.58409375,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.62159375,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.50784375,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.58721875,"end":86.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.87346875,"end":104.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.94721875,"end":113.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.42221875000001,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.73846875000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.68346875,"end":134.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.95534375,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.36221875,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.57721875000001,"end":157.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.72784375,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.37721875,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.38534375,"end":171.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.41346875000002,"end":174.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.70409375,"end":176.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.52659375000002,"end":185.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.55471875,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.72284375,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.11346875,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.19784375,"end":201.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.39971875,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.74409375000002,"end":220.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.33409375000002,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.37784375,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.46221875,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.58034375000003,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.44096875000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.06034375000002,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.96284375000002,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.13159375,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.29159375,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.30846875,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.47721875000002,"end":252.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.74721875,"end":249.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.67909375000002,"end":257.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.76284375,"end":269.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.04784375,"end":272.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.91659375,"end":275.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.13971875000004,"end":287.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.49221875,"end":303.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.71346875,"end":319.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","sta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謝謝主席 主席有請陳代主委好 陳代主委主委好 主委好 主委想先請教您幾個簡單的問題嘛您目前使用的是5G還是4G使用5G是吃不到飽的費率嗎目前是用吃到飽的費率 那每個月的費率多少錢"},{"start":27.804,"end":43.632,"text":"這部分因為是公務手機好像是一千多塊吧一千多塊那有遇到限速的情形嗎在使用中使用的時候它有方案有好幾種我的部分好像是沒有限速的完全沒有限速那您自己在實際使用上您覺得5G跟4G它的差別大嗎"},{"start":45.031,"end":59.719,"text":"在速度上在大寬頻這一塊它是比4G要好沒錯是 因為本席今天先問主委這幾個問題是要跟您討論就是我國5G的推動它實際的進展還有使用者的感受"},{"start":60.379,"end":86.074,"text":"那5G通訊在2020年7月1號正式開通那到現在將近5年了那根據SCC2024年第4季的行動通訊市場統計全國5G的用戶數有1000多萬1016.5萬戶那主委請問您這1000多萬戶有多少是不限數真正吃到飽的使用者您知道嗎這邊我不是很清楚我要請我們副處長看看他手上有沒有資料OK 好"},{"start":90.037,"end":116.231,"text":"報告委員因為這個是依據使用者習慣那我們大概知道現在目前在大部分人還是用吃到飽部分還是選擇4G為主那5G吃到飽就是一些比較譬如說商用或者是他個人需求所以這樣子看下來不限速真正吃到飽的使用者我們是沒有辦法去做統計嗎那這個用戶中那您知道就是有包含5G限速的方案用戶有多少嗎是不是有包含"},{"start":117.745,"end":147.168,"text":"就是統計我們這個統計整體的5G啦那當然就是這個包含包含限數或不限數都含在這5G裡面那至於要不要再區分那個細節的部分這我們可能在另外再跟業者在做討論啦好我是聶本熙也看到另外一份報告我們目前台灣4G的用戶有1952.9萬戶那比5G多出了936.4萬戶那我們可以看到這落差非常大嘛那5G都已經"},{"start":148.408,"end":176.462,"text":"推動快五年了那到底說應該會逐漸取代4G那事實上我們沒有看到我們沒有看到他有明顯的成長那主委您認為造成5G用戶他的用戶數始終沒有辦法突破是因為什麼原因最主要原因是5G的Killer application目前還沒有還沒有很明顯的這個這個這個殺手的應用沒有出現所以4G他的供應性一般上網供應性對他而言落差沒有很大所以一般"},{"start":177.142,"end":188.654,"text":"提到是這個application那你有沒有想過是因為資費太高還是限數太多或者是用戶他實際體驗他覺得這個體驗感受不是很好還是基礎我們基礎的建設未來還有預期您是怎麼看"},{"start":190.736,"end":214.351,"text":"支費是一個原因但是因為當初他們競標也是花了天價來競標那也會對應到他們網路建設的成本的一些反應那這邊主要還是5G因為很多都是購機專案您剛才提到就是因為您目前使用的是公務手機您不知道實際的支費是多少那目前赤道堡是1399那您知道4G的赤道堡費率大概是多少錢嗎"},{"start":216.388,"end":236.335,"text":"早期也是差不多但是相對比較低都是1000塊以下現在5G的費率幾乎是4G的兩倍那通常就是600多塊的區間那我們可以看到5G它的評估它競標是在2020年2月21號完成那主委您知道第一階段的競標總金額是多少嗎"},{"start":238.568,"end":257.225,"text":"我印象中好像 競票金額好像是一千多萬差多了 是一千三百八十億當時的競票金額是 我當作口誤口誤 那第二階段的競票金額 您大概知道是多少錢嗎我是一階段 二階段加起來好像是都是有所的天價啦"},{"start":257.836,"end":274.548,"text":"是那第二階段那當時是41.1億所以說這個總金額是1400多億那當時在109年的時候中央政府總預算NCC當時編列僅編列了440億作為市照的稅錄那實際上他收的超過三倍是1400"},{"start":280.111,"end":302.84,"text":"21.91億1421.91億這代表政府從這場試照的競標中超收了980多億那本席要提醒主委喔那在2020年的時候立法院就委員提出說要求NCC延誼是否可以將這筆巨額回饋給全民包含降低費率喔那我們可以看到當時提案的委員那我們看到距今超過五年了那NCC有沒有再做後續的討論"},{"start":304.06,"end":319.09,"text":"其實有後來就是有用另類轉換的方式來處理比方說請業者來加強這個偏鄉或中大建設的一些經濟台建設那這一塊後來移到蘇衛部那邊去都是後來有分三級的前瞻建設那邊主要就是"},{"start":320.131,"end":334.506,"text":"主要是這個標準的一些回饋使用者的一些落實處理偏鄉基地台還有重要交通設施的基地台所以您是說目前都是速發部在做的嗎"},{"start":335.975,"end":350.756,"text":"對 今年應該是前瞻第三階最後一年那當時蔡政府所通過的前瞻他的基礎建設特別預算是八千八百億那這八千八百億當中有多少是用來補助電信業者建置5G基地台您知道嗎"},{"start":352.858,"end":372.105,"text":"我印象中偏向基站是相對少一點其他應該接近我們可以看到總共是155億這些都是納稅人的錢那NCC後來有沒有去監督有沒有去落實就是協助電信業者加速部件5G的基地台"},{"start":372.885,"end":391.545,"text":"在數位部成立以前是NCC的職權那一塊我們大概有做了第一期的部分第二期之後就數位部成立之後就移到數位部來處理了所以現在完全都不在NCC這邊嗎都是數八部嗎對 數位部任訓師OK 好 那本席知道了那本席也會再持續追蹤這個議題OK 好 謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":706,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請陳代主委。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。主委，先請教你幾個簡單的問題，目前你是使用5G或4G？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：5G。"],["邱委員若華：使用5G，是吃到飽的費率嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["邱委員若華：目前是用吃到飽的費率，每個月的費率是多少錢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為是公務手機，好像是一千多元吧！"],["邱委員若華：一千多元，使用時有遇到限速的情形嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：它的方案有好幾種，我的部分好像是沒有限速。"],["邱委員若華：完全沒有限速，根據你的實際使用經驗，你覺得5G與4G的差別大嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在速度上、在大寬頻這一塊，它比4G要好，沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：是，今天本席問這幾個問題，是要與你討論我國5G推動的實際進展及使用者的感受。5G通訊在2020年7月1日正式開通，到現在已經將近五年了，根據NCC在2024年第四季的行動通訊市場統計，全國5G的用戶數有一千多萬戶，1016.5萬戶。主委，在這一千多萬戶中，有多少是真正不限速吃到飽的使用者，你知道嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我不是很清楚，能否問一下副處長，看看他的手上有沒有資料？"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，那個是依據使用者的習慣，我們大概知道目前大多數人在吃到飽的部分還是選擇以4G為主，至於5G吃到飽就是一些像是商用或個人需求比較多的。"],["邱委員若華：這樣看下來，我們無法對不限速真正吃到飽的使用者進行統計。那麼你知道在用戶中包含的5G限速方案用戶有多少嗎？是不是有包含？"],["黃副處長天陽：我們這個統計是針對整體的5G，當然限速或不限速都包含在5G裡面，至於要不要再區分那個細節的部分，我們可能要另外再與業者進行統計。"],["邱委員若華：本席也看到另外一份報告，目前臺灣4G的用戶有1952.9萬戶，比5G多出了936.4萬戶，我們可以看到兩者的落差非常大。5G都已經推動將近五年了，照理說，應該是會逐漸取代4G，事實上，我們沒看到它有明顯的成長。主委，你認為5G的用戶數始終無法突破是什麼原因？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：最主要的原因是5G的killer application（殺手級應用）還沒有很明顯的出現，致使它與4G一般上網功能性的落差沒有很大，所以……"],["邱委員若華：既然你提到了application，那麼你有沒有想過是因為資費太高、限速太多或是用戶實際體驗的感受不是很好，或是我們的基礎建設在未來還有預期？你是怎麼看？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：資費是一個原因，但是當初業者也是花了天價競標，這是對於他們網路建設成本的反映。主要還是因為5G有很多都是購機專案……"],["邱委員若華：剛剛你說因為是使用公務手機，所以不知道實際的資費是多少，目前的吃到飽是1,399，你知道4G的吃到飽費率大概是多少錢嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：早期相對比較低，大概都是1,000元以下。"],["邱委員若華：現在5G的費率幾乎是4G的2倍，通常都是六百多元的區間。我們可以看到5G的頻譜競標是在2020年2月21日完成，主委，你知道第一階段的競標總金額是多少嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我的印象中競標金額好像是一千多萬元。"],["邱委員若華：差多了！當時的競標金額是1,380億元。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：講錯了，單位口誤。"],["邱委員若華：第二階段的競標金額，你大概知道是多少錢嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一、二階段加起來好像都是有史以來的天價。"],["邱委員若華：第二階段是41.1億元，所以總金額是一千四百多億元。當時109年的中央政府總預算對NCC僅編列了440億元作為釋照的歲入，實際上卻收了超過3倍，1,421.91億元，代表政府從這場釋照競標中超收了九百八十多億元。本席要提醒主委，在2020年的時候，立法院就有委員提出，要求NCC研議是否能將這筆鉅額回饋給全民，包含降低費率，我們可以看到當時的提案距今已經超過五年了，NCC有沒有做後續的討論？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實是有的，後來是以另類轉換的方式處理，譬如請業者加強偏鄉或重大建設的一些基地台建設。這一塊後來移到數位部那邊去，包括分為三期的前瞻建設，主要都是這些標金回饋使用者的一些落實處理，像是偏鄉基地台、重要交通設施的基地台以及5G儲值運用等等。"],["邱委員若華：你是說目前都是由數發部負責嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，今年應該是前瞻第三期的最後一年。"],["邱委員若華：當時蔡政府通過的前瞻基礎建設特別預算是8,800億元，在這筆錢裡有多少是用來補助電信業者建置5G基地台，你知道嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：詳細的數字我現在忘了，印象中偏鄉相對少一點，其他應該是接近3位數。"],["邱委員若華：我們可以看到總共是155億元，這些都是納稅人的錢，NCC後來有沒有去監督、有沒有去落實，協助電信業者加速佈建5G的基地台？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在數發部成立前是NCC的職權，我們針對那一塊做了第一期的部分，在數發部成立之後，第二期的部分就移到數發部處理了。"],["邱委員若華：所以現在完全都不在NCC這邊嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["邱委員若華：都是數發部嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，數發部韌性建設司。"],["邱委員若華：好，本席知道了，不過本席也會持續追蹤這個議題，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員的質詢。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":514,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","黃國昌","李昆澤","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","黃健豪","許智傑","徐富癸","林國成","邱若華","林月琴","游顥","王鴻薇","黃健豪"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理 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早上我們同仁也問你了也就是說我們該決策的這些會議無法做決策這個是我們NCC現在最頭痛的一個問題"},{"start":205.782,"end":226.84,"text":"那在這裡我特別還是要呼籲行政院人事案原來的你認為不妥或者新的委員那當然要盡快去提所以不要一天到晚就罵在野黨在杯葛NCC其實NCC這些解凍案或者這些法條"},{"start":228.121,"end":250.446,"text":"拜託我們都很支持是我們主動是我們主動來做所以我還是希望行政院要把這個問題當成正式的一個非常急迫刻不容緩的人事案要盡快那當然這個沒有在指責主委跟主秘的意思因為"},{"start":251.286,"end":275.457,"text":"你也是聽命以行事但是最起碼的話下情上打讓上面知道很迫切的需要所以今天你的報告有10點是沒有這個不足法定程序的這些委員會你無法去開那另外一個我是覺得啦齁這個當然代主委你就可以"},{"start":276.337,"end":304.354,"text":"表示意見的 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我說實在這樣怎麼執政另外一個我還是要呼籲啊我們代主委啊就是就是因為NCC是一個"},{"start":396.007,"end":416.727,"text":"非常重要的單位尤其媒體啊廣播啊等等這些你們那個第二張了跳過來了好這個NCC的監督媒體不要只有靠臉書來花文主委你認為不管是5月19號或5月21號你們這些在臉書花文"},{"start":422.287,"end":450.041,"text":"像這個三峽這個案子寫零零的這些圖片啊或等等這些東西你們有沒有考慮以後臉書一種公文書一種你們不要只有花臉書你們事後有沒有補公文書啊跟我們回報其實我們跟他的工協會跟衛星公關那些其實都一直密切聯繫這些大概事前的非正式的通知提醒大概都有做"},{"start":450.97,"end":461.858,"text":"你們現在有沒有公文書我要呼籲你臉書是一種公文書是一種不管你臉書或者媒體你怎麼做"},{"start":463.334,"end":482.6,"text":"行政單位尤其我們獨立單位監督單位行政公文書才有憑有據這個部分我要勉勵主委不管怎麼樣來不及做最迅速是用臉書用其他的媒體的的公告但最起碼公文書都要"},{"start":484.241,"end":508.473,"text":"都要補來 這樣的話我們的立場 我們的行政立場才會認為較為完善的東西 也比較正式啦主委 你知道嗎我知道 但是他的自律規範其實我們都有檢視過那也有一些在那邊特殊的一些報導的一些自律規範那個我們都認為說他人平常都是必須要落實那我們看到重大事件之後 我們會再次提醒"},{"start":509.261,"end":534.289,"text":"好 這個我還是希望啦 不能只靠臉書好不好所以我認為啊 我認為這個新聞的智力就像你在答覆我們這些委員在答覆的時候其實當機立斷依照你們的職權 該處分的就該處分該就證的就就證 該讓他說明的就說明不要在那邊模擬兩可 不要遇到綠色電視台你們都不敢作為"},{"start":535.393,"end":552.201,"text":"你不管什麼台 只要違反你的規定只要碰觸你們的紅線 該做的要做這個才是NCC的立場對 我們目前就是 不分顏色啦都是該 依法行政 該怎麼處理都怎麼處理好 這個我還是要勉勵啦 好不好 主委謝謝常委 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有請陳代理主委好 陳代主委委員好 主委長辛苦 主委我想這個我們的這個"},{"start":17.364,"end":37.48,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會的委員空轉已經五個月了當然我們知道行政院長、主委院長最近有明確提出要確定人選的一個提案但是到目前為止還在等候名單我想剛剛我們有許多的委員也都有特別關切這個事情"},{"start":38.2,"end":54.257,"text":"那所以我想我們還是期待行政院趕快提出名單但是也請我們藍白委員不要惡意杯葛啦這個沒有人就沒辦法做事情啦我們也是盡快希望這個名單能夠確定之後然後整個讓我們整個監理制度整個"},{"start":55.891,"end":71.392,"text":"NCC的運作能夠正常順利但是到目前為止 主委我們目前貴會剩下3席委員那這段時間面臨的一個實質決策跟一個推動的一個困難的問題我們怎麼去克服這些的狀況"},{"start":72.642,"end":100.736,"text":"就是我們在去年7月31號以前有修改了一些相關的授權規定就是在組織法9條2項6款的全法律保留的事項之外我們有授權說在代理組委或委員會議無法組成情況之下一樣可以處理所以目前大概是我們就可以處理部分都持續來處理那不能處理委員會議保留事項部分我們也會請同仁一定要做到"},{"start":101.796,"end":128.622,"text":"上委員會前的幕僚階段的作業都要完成就像我一直跟外界舉的例子假設到委員會的是要跑100公尺我們都希望能跑到90公尺就是我們還是照這個該走的程序在進行然後到最後再來做處理啦是主委我想這個問題當然就是我們也是希望能夠盡快解決不過在於這個整個這個"},{"start":131.966,"end":150.319,"text":"櫃會確實在不管是交通部就是在這個整個內閣來講這個好像看起來是我們在野黨很有興趣的一個單位我想這個當然有一些的時空背景不過真的不能再拖延下去了畢竟我們的背景很重要那另外我想針對這個"},{"start":152.08,"end":177.716,"text":"新聞更正跟答辯權的制度再請教一下主委主委我想我自己本身也是媒體出身那我認為新聞自由是民主的根本價值那所以說話的自由應該是雙向的不是只有單向的一個回應那目前我們的這個新聞更正跟答辯的一個制度多數仰賴於媒體的自律或是NCC的行政指導跟德國法國還是不一樣"},{"start":178.556,"end":185.11,"text":"那主委認為我們這個部分是不是應該參考歐陸的一個制度建立一個更明確的一個程序跟實現"},{"start":186.601,"end":211.763,"text":"跟我們報告確實就是我們這部分其實在我們報告有提到這個權力就地部分其實有往前優化了那目前因為發動方都必須要是被報導人物這一塊在我們衛廣法44條有答辯的一些規範44條有更正的規範那如果覺得他的權力有受到損害在民事上其實也可以用衛廣法45條來做一些賠償損害的一些訴求處理"},{"start":214.52,"end":235.267,"text":"主委這點也是我覺得過去NCC一直會被攻擊 被質疑的點所以我覺得這個東西真的很重要要不然未來你們在執法上面 人家總是找麻煩所以我們求是你們不管怎麼判 怎麼處理 都會有問題所以應該是不是趕快把它制度化 做一個比較明確的規範"},{"start":236.432,"end":258.136,"text":"有都是現在剛剛就是衛廣法有相關的規範倒是武廣那邊是相對應的比較沒有那麼明確那未來我們管理三法修法也就是會拉齊這兩部法的部分但是目前主要新聞頻道大概都是拿衛廣執照所以這邊大致上是比較沒有問題這規範都已經到位了"},{"start":258.84,"end":281.411,"text":"主委所以我還是建議一定要建立制度化公開化程序明確的一個更正跟答辯的機制這不斷是對媒體的一個保障也是對民眾的一個信賴對社會一個進步的一個象徵這點我想我們繼續來努力好那另外最近媒體有報導中國的平台小紅書主委知道嗎知道最近"},{"start":283.269,"end":305.745,"text":"陸陸續續出現了我們空軍花蓮基地的一個部署的影片甚至有民眾在平台上也發現了大量的一個血統的一個正面的影像甚至有疑似的中國直播組在校門口拍攝的一個狀況我想這個不是單一事件這是很明顯一個數位徵收跟一個認知作戰的一個具體證據主委我們目前有掌握相關的一個狀況嗎"},{"start":308.378,"end":327.471,"text":"有相關部會都有協力那這一塊因為主要涉及到國安體系的單位那也會也跟兩岸關係有關那我們都有跟這個相應的有相關主管機關都有保持一些聯繫那在通案上我們希望說這個平台那邊還有民眾這邊必須要有這個正確的一些"},{"start":329.573,"end":337.952,"text":"素養的一些賠利然後素養上必須要不斷的提升才能避免這個思想想法裡頭被影響而不自知"},{"start":339.369,"end":367.78,"text":"因為這些平台已經不是單純的這個下載娛樂媒體的一個平台而是一些認知作戰甚至是惡意置入的一些處理的一個機制我想這就是很嚴重一個資訊戰的屠城木馬這點我想未來還是我們也會要求行政院必須跨部會來整合針對這樣的一個敵對平台的即時通報跟徹查的一個機制應該把一些軍事校園甚至交通的一些因素"},{"start":368.22,"end":393.501,"text":"要整個來調整來做一個因應主委認同嗎認同 我們都有協定相關部會來做相關法定規範的一些秩序定的時候我們都有來參與處理另外我還是要再建議說我們NCC應該跟教育部要建立一個血統影像的一個保護方案然後甚至這個孩童的影像不得上傳到這個敵對的一個平台這部分有沒有做這樣的規劃"},{"start":395.592,"end":419.164,"text":"兒少的保護在我們NC族主管的在安慰部分有持續來進行民眾端的素養的賠率或侵蝕部分我們也有在處理如果說是在間接轉入在廣播媒體部分這部分我們也有相關一些法定規範既有的為管理者來做一些處理"},{"start":421.039,"end":446.491,"text":"最後我想主委這個賴總統有在國安實習冊裡面的第七項有提到防範中共利用AI跟應用程式危害治安的一個嚴重的情形那我想我們還是要積極推動數位中介服務法尤其是針對有敵意來源的平台應該要有揭露義務這個來源標示跟一些退波的一些限制那我想這個尤其是我們的孩子絕對不是中國AI的練習樣板"},{"start":447.611,"end":477.034,"text":"那台灣的社群生活也不是一個統戰的練習場這點我想我們應該要正視這個國安的一個嚴重的問題好 最後一部分訴訟法我們先前外界比較缺乏共識但是我們在一百零九年之後我們還是持續收集相關資料那未來我們會持續往這方面來不管是國際上的趨勢走向的一些演習跟那個跟對外的一些第三方或者公民團體一些溝通我們都有持續在進行"},{"start":477.884,"end":500.254,"text":"主委當然你如果又做了這些事情可能又會招致這個我們在野黨的委員會覺得你們又在做敵對的一個行為這點當然是很辛苦不過我們還是要堅持做對的事情這個該做的還是要做所以109年之後比較急迫性目前都採分散私立法在兒少保護或相關的一些"},{"start":501.794,"end":517.033,"text":"放諸四海皆准的一些迫切的議題其實都已經在衛福部相關的法令以後性剝削條例也好大概都已經完成立法對 所以有做的事情也應該要積極宣傳這樣你們才知道NCC的定位在哪裡好 這部分我們會來繼續加強好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時13分）謝謝主席，有請陳代理主委。"],["主席：好，陳代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早，辛苦！主委，國家通訊傳播委員會的委員已經空轉5個月了，當然我們知道行政院長卓院長最近有明確提出要確定人選的提案，但是到目前為止還在等候名單，剛剛許多委員也都有特別關切這件事情。主委，我們還是期待行政院趕快提出名單，但是也請藍白委員不要惡意杯葛，沒有人就沒辦法做事情啦！我們也是儘快，希望這個名單能夠確定，讓整個監理制度、讓整個NCC的運作能夠正常順利。到目前為止，主委，目前貴會剩下3席委員嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這段時間面臨的實質決策跟推動有困難的問題，我們怎麼去克服這些狀況？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們在去年7月31號以前有修改了一些相關的授權規定，就是在組織法第九條第二項第六款規定，除法律保留的事項之外，我們有授權代理主委或者委員會議無法組成的情況之下，一樣可以處理，所以目前大概是就可以處理的部分都持續處理；不能處理的部分，如委員會保留事項部分，我們也會請同仁一定要做到，上委員會前幕僚階段的作業都要完成，就像我一直跟外界舉的例子，假設到委員會是要跑100公尺，我們都希望能跑到90公尺。"],["徐委員富癸：就是我們還是照該走的程序在進行，然後到最後再處理啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，當然我們也是希望問題能夠儘快解決，不過貴會確實不管是交通部……在整個內閣來講，看起來好像是在野黨很有興趣的一個單位，我想這個當然有一些時空背景，不過真的不能再拖延下去啦！畢竟我們百姓、鄉親的權益很重要。","另外，我想針對新聞更正跟答辯權的制度，再請教一下主委。我自己本身也是媒體出身，我認為新聞自由是民主的根本價值，所以說話的自由應該是雙向的，不是只有單向的一個回應。目前我們的新聞更正跟答辯制度多數仰賴媒體自律或是NCC的行政指導，跟德國、法國還是不一樣。主委認為我們這個部分是不是應該參考歐陸的制度，建立一個更明確的程序跟時限？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這一部分在報告裡有提到，權利救濟的部分其實有往前優化，目前因為發動方都必須要是被報導人物這一塊，在衛廣法第四十條有答辯的一些規範，第四十四條有更正的規範，如果覺得他的權利有受到損害，在民事上其實也可以運用衛廣法第四十五條做一些賠償損害的訴求跟處理。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，這一點也是我覺得過去NCC一直會被攻擊、被質疑的點，所以我覺得這個東西真的很重要，要不然未來你們在執法上面，人家總是找麻煩、吹毛求疵，你們不管怎麼判、怎麼處理都會有問題，所以是不是應該要趕快把它制度化，做一個比較明確的規範？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，衛廣法已經有相關的規範，倒是無廣那邊相對應比較沒有那麼明確，未來我們廣電三法修法也會拉齊這兩部法，但是目前主要的新聞頻道大概都是拿衛廣執照，所以這邊大致上比較沒有問題，規範都已經到位了。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我還是建議一定要建立制度化、公開化、程序明確的更正跟答辯機制，這不但是對媒體的一個保障，也是民眾信賴、社會進步的一個象徵，這點我想我們繼續努力啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["徐委員富癸：最近媒體有報導中國的平臺小紅書，主委知道嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：知道。"],["徐委員富癸：最近陸陸續續出現我們空軍花蓮基地部署的影片，甚至也有民眾在平臺上發現大量學童正面的影像，甚至有疑似中國直播主在校門口拍攝的狀況。我想這個不是單一事件，這很明顯是數位偵蒐跟認知作戰的具體證據。主委，我們目前有掌握相關的狀況嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，相關部會大家都有協力，這一塊因為主要涉及國安體系的單位，也跟兩岸關係有關，我們都有跟相關的主管機關保持一些聯繫。在通案上，我們希望平臺還有民眾端必須要有一些正確的素養培力，素養上必須要不斷的提升，才能避免思想、想法被影響而不自知。"],["徐委員富癸：對，主委，這些平臺已經不是單純下載娛樂媒體的一個平臺，而是一些認知作戰，甚至是惡意置入的一些處理機制，我想這就是資訊戰，很嚴重的木馬屠城，這點未來我們也會要求行政院必須跨部會整合，針對敵對平臺的即時通報跟澈查機制，應該把一些軍事、校園，甚至交通的一些因素，整個調整並做一個因應，主委認同嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：認同，我們都有協力相關部會做相關法令規範，一些制、修訂的時候，我們都有參與處理。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我還是要再建議，NCC應該與教育部建立一個學童影像的保護方案，甚至孩童影像不得上傳到敵對的平台，這個部分有沒有做相關的規劃？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：關於兒少的保護，在我們NCC主管的iWIN部分有持續進行，至於民眾端素養的培力或親師的部分，我們也有在處理。如果是間接轉入廣電媒體的部分，我們也有相關的一些法令規範給既有衛廣業者進行處理。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，主委，賴總統在國安17策的第七項提到，防範中共利用AI與應用程式危害資安的情形。我想我們還是要積極推動數位中介服務法，尤其是針對有敵意來源的平台，應該要有揭露義務，標示來源及推播的限制。我們的孩子絕對不是中國AI練習的樣板，臺灣的社群生活也不是統戰的練習場，針對這一點，我想我們應該要正視這個國安嚴重的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：針對數中法的部分，先前外界比較缺乏共識，但我們在109年之後還是持續蒐集相關資料，未來也會持續往這方面進行，無論是國際趨勢走向的研析或是與對外第三方或公民團體的溝通，我們都有持續在進行。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，如果你做了這些事情，可能又會招致在野黨委員批評是進行敵對的行為，這點當然是很辛苦，不過我們還是要堅持做對的事情，該做的還是要做啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，109年之後較具急迫性的，目前都採分散式立法，在兒少保護或相關的一些放諸四海皆準的迫切議題，其實都已經在衛福部相關的法令，像是性剝削條例等等，大概都已經完成立法了。"],["徐委員富癸：對於有做的事情也應該要積極宣傳，這樣大家才會知道NCC的定位在哪裡。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：針對這個部分，我們會再加強。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席（邱委員若華代）：下一位登記質詢的委員是林國成委員，請林國成召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":514,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","黃國昌","李昆澤","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","黃健豪","許智傑","徐富癸","林國成","邱若華","林月琴","游顥","王鴻薇","黃健豪"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理 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謝謝主席 我們請主委好 陳代主委主委好 這個詐騙一向都是大家非常關心的議題那NCC對於詐騙的成果你覺得有沒有什麼成果或滿不滿意可以跟國人講一下"},{"start":26.653,"end":26.873,"text":"這個其實我在諮詢這邊也"},{"start":50.829,"end":67.858,"text":"講過了很多次那也希望說NCC可以更主動積極就是說從國外打來的詐騙電話要怎麼樣去把它攔阻下來那事實上我跟NCC要你們的那個"},{"start":69.367,"end":88.502,"text":"資料就是說從112年5月份陸續實施啦那已經降低了從五千萬通降到五百萬通這個數據是你們給我們的你們自己清楚嗎清楚"},{"start":91.116,"end":115.131,"text":"這個坦白講啦 要給你們鼓勵一下啦這個已經攔掉了近九成嘛 對不對但是民眾好像不是那麼清楚我們會來持續宣傳 因為詐騙集團他從國際來話那邊 只要被我們擋住之後他都流到其他的領域 比如說網路啊 或者社群媒體那邊"},{"start":115.896,"end":144.119,"text":"所以其實我要講的就是說今天我們有要求你們有做事然後也有一點成果那這個部分如果你沒有跟國人講國人不知道你們NCC有做這些事就像那個那個現在還有585萬通嘛那到目前為止不知道還有沒有在攔下更多啦那就這個部分是人工在"},{"start":145.225,"end":145.466,"text":"處理還是電腦在處理"},{"start":148.608,"end":176.18,"text":"有些是大部分是電腦自動處理比方說當初它是偽冒國內的行動電話那我們透過三家來查說這個客戶根本沒有出國不可能海外賣魚回來那邊就自動就把它攔住掉那另外一些偽冒國內的事化國內的事化台北的電話怎麼可能從海外打回來這些是自然判斷邏輯不對的異常部分就直接在電腦端就設定好就把它攔住掉OK"},{"start":177.06,"end":188.118,"text":"所以你們藍調的通數我就說先給你們鼓勵這個你們要宣傳啦這個那個你在從那個出國回來在機場可以買一條菸"},{"start":189.895,"end":211.195,"text":"啊可以買那個一瓶酒其他的不行對不對那國人大概都知道了嘛那你們其實有成功的攬下因為現在大部分的人民就覺得說反正我受到詐騙的話就很討厭然後就是政府沒做事這個就是一般就會人家人民就會這麼想嘛那當然就是說585萬通"},{"start":213.749,"end":229.511,"text":"坦白講還是很多很多很多啦那也是還是很多人民受騙啦所以就是說我們應該是分兩個部分來講就是說你今天有做事你必須要宣傳讓人民知道我們NCC幫忙做了多少事擋掉了多少的詐騙"},{"start":231.176,"end":242.206,"text":"那當然就針對這585萬通我們還有什麼機會可以再去改進再去減得更低我想這個就是一個態度嘛所以我是希望說你們剛剛說用電腦去阻攔的話那"},{"start":246.55,"end":271.944,"text":"因為你背後就是V2V2C嘛那C如果是說詐騙的民眾V如果是我們中華電信的這個hub然後原來的V是詐騙的集團那你今天這樣子一個處理的方式是不是有機會你把那個電腦的程式或者是在引進AI的學習模式可以把這個詐騙的"},{"start":274.085,"end":303.124,"text":"分類然後學習然後攔阻可以更有效率這個部分我是建議NCC可以考量一下是那其實在簡訊的部分業者也要引入AI三大都有語音的部分他們也有適度的一些用AI的一些能力來處理OK那包括你們的語音的接聽警示啦接聽警示這個其實我是覺得還不錯啦那有沒有什麼你們覺得成果可以跟人民報告的"},{"start":304.309,"end":320.003,"text":"好 那其實在這個我們會適當的在適當的不管是FB還有相關部分我們會適當的就微音的指示部分就我們目前辦的一些努力部分來適當的對外揭露今天重點就是要跟NCC"},{"start":321.264,"end":339.233,"text":"討論就是說你要盡量去把你的成果跟需要精進的技巧然後可以在攔阻的問題這些做一個整理然後跟人民報告或者是做一個宣傳讓人民知道事實上真的有做的事情其實五千幾萬通那時候是很嚇人的"},{"start":342.35,"end":370.947,"text":"我都等到五百多萬通 也算有水準了啦當然五百多萬通對民眾來說 又是一陣困擾啦要怎麼讓它留住啦我是覺得這個部分 希望NCC也讓人民知道我們政府有在做事然後需要在精進的作為是什麼希望說這個可以思考一下好 精進作為部分我們主要是在網路電話這一塊來處理我們目前也有做一些攔阻那未來也會做語音警示的來處理好 那再來就是那個"},{"start":372.088,"end":384.782,"text":"你們電信業務管理費就是上次的那個那部分我們現在322位目前已經有有80%已經完成退費了"},{"start":385.677,"end":411.799,"text":"好 因為時間差不多了 所以我再跟你們強調一次就是說你今天是公司的不收費嘛 對不對 公司的要收費嘛個人帶三個以上的要收費兩部以下的不用收費那你現在未來還有可能再增加的部分那你們這個機制我想你們也要把它訂一個合理的收費標準"},{"start":412.995,"end":424.593,"text":"是 我們現在同仁已經在研擬在進行所以我講的就是說你今天慢慢的有那個態度就是說你今天有做的今天有322個人退款已經退了沒"},{"start":425.45,"end":449.986,"text":"已經退了百分之八十了 百分之八十已經退了有些是聯絡不到或是他的退款的帳號會有一些問題沒關係 這個我是要提醒你就是說這個算是NCC有改善的部分我們有要求有改善的部分 那也確實有成果還沒有做完的趕快把它做完 做完以後就是說可以跟民眾知道一下"},{"start":450.726,"end":476.165,"text":"然後再來就是說未來有可能再增加的部分你們要怎麼樣去防範怎麼樣去訂一個更合理的標準我希望說這個部分也希望NCC可以考量今天質詢的兩個重點一個就是你們有做的讓人民知道要再改善的部分也讓人民知道你用什麼方法這兩個概念希望說NCC可以多講啦不要人家說你都沒做事了了解我的意思嗎有做的就是要說啦好 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沒關係主委我不會為難你啦因為我以為你有消息了所以為什麼可以講出來呢因為你們今天送來的解凍報告裡面也包含了一項嘛就是這個一般行政中的政務人員待遇的預算的七分之四之前被凍結那你們今天提出要解凍那所以我比較好奇說你提解凍的同時是不是表示說這個不足的人選即將要提出來了所以你先預先做了準備那如果毫無所惜那你這個解凍解凍完要放哪裡去"},{"start":134.065,"end":161.984,"text":"跟委員報告這個節奏條件是促請行政院趕快提名那我們已經做到促請這個動作我們有發函給人事總署人事總署也有轉函給行政院那邊所以我們就檢據資料在文書院報告裡頭來陳述說這個這個作為這個促請這個作為NCC已經已經到位了所以我們來來促請這個叫大委員會這邊來好沒關係主委這是你的立場沒關係這個我想這樣啦因為待會可能也會來針對這部分的"},{"start":164.145,"end":183.239,"text":"解凍案來討論其他部分我沒有特別意見但針對這個我的建議是說我這邊表達一下我的意見就是真的如果這個7分之4的部分應該等你們先送至少先送名單嘛名單先送來了的同時可以解凍如果連名單都沒有然後我就解凍這我覺得"},{"start":184.693,"end":207.253,"text":"立場讓我們立場會很尷尬啦我現在解凍了那結果還是沒有名單那當初凍結理由其實還是存在啊好吧這是我的立場我跟主委先說明一下好所以沒關係我們先回到業務面喔主委這個人事部分就這樣子了反正這個我看主委你也沒辦法就是決定嘛沒關係喔那麼回到業務面啦我想大家還是很關心這個詐騙打詐的議題喔"},{"start":210.615,"end":230.038,"text":"之前我們直訊的時候也提過很多次就是說包含說我們今天提出本期提出的修法裡面電信法第五條也針對也是這一類的這個二類電信的這個使用者那當然其中因為有最大宗就是所謂俗稱的外勞卡那它當然就是這個移工電話卡的部分"},{"start":231.152,"end":257.184,"text":"還有黑莓卡的部分那去年就講了說要依據這個新的打炸釋法來審查這些東西因為我們我國這個依據統計目前移工人數合法的照這個數 上面上的數據有83.3萬人那失聯移工估計有8萬人所以合計起來大概90萬人左右但是我們這個售出的所謂的移工電話卡裡面大概有221萬支門號"},{"start":259.125,"end":287.753,"text":"它的售出門號有200多萬那實際上在台灣的移工不管10點還是登記在案的也90萬人而已所以表示說我們售出的電話卡2點多倍甚至高達快要3倍左右的這個數字通常它是單獨過來的嘛因為按照五國憲刑法例來講他們是移工來台灣理論上都是單身或一個人過來那它理論上也不會有這麼多卡片所以去年頒布了所謂打詐釋法之後就講說要來清查所謂的這個"},{"start":289.133,"end":299.093,"text":"這些這個所謂移工使用預付卡的部分那我想知道到底從去年到現在清查了多少還有多少的這些移工卡在外面流通"},{"start":301.84,"end":319.741,"text":"剛剛講到重點就是因為在台灣境內的外籍人士跟持有的迂腐卡人數是有落差所以我們分階段來清查3月份以前我們清查一陣多號的那已經清查完畢那剛剛去年11月總共外籍的迂腐卡有223萬"},{"start":320.962,"end":346.473,"text":"那到4月底我們已經清查完103萬那委員長提到說已經停用多少我們已經停用了14萬然後只要他依據打造條例22條只要他已經促進或者預期拘留的部分我們會給他停止都停動的話然後其他的部分會請他重新來合資所以如果他資格不符我們也拒絕申請那拒絕申請的部分也有達到11.4萬"},{"start":348.214,"end":370.965,"text":"那持續會進行清查大概我們預計到8月以前會全部三大電信業都清查完畢那中華電信走比較快到6月份就清查完畢所以你剛剛提到目前為止清查100多萬他停用了這十幾萬大概占一成左右那剩下那八十幾萬是都合法的嗎還是說還在清查中我想了解這個事情還在清查當中所以這八十幾萬也未必他在境內對"},{"start":373.936,"end":398.393,"text":"這個實務上他有沒有在境內不是是一個一言可之的事實嗎這個問題在哪裡為什麼這八十幾萬對我們來講比如說我人現在在台灣還是我在國外就是比如查我的護照很清楚可以很清楚知道說我人在哪裡嗎但是移工他們入境也是使用護照出入境那這八十幾萬還沒找到的原因還不能定案他是在國內繼續工作還是已經出境了的原因是什麼"},{"start":399.516,"end":420.108,"text":"根本回報主要原因是因為有的技術上的量能的問題因為我們查他有沒有在境內是只連到移民署的資料庫移民署資料庫本身他的作業系統白天比較忙怕會差許多影響他的怕他系統當掉所以會用比較深夜時段來查深夜時段來查也會有他的能量問題所以三大大概都會分開分時的處理"},{"start":422.529,"end":447.788,"text":"所以這個量能的部分會有一個限制所以我們大概會沒辦法一次都可以查多少量雖然我們有拜託過移民署那邊去擴容那他們也做了適度擴容所以現在的進度是達到說目前還可以繼續來走下去那未來部分如果他們有年度那邊會有擴容進一步完成的話那以後查詢的量能會更好 查的會更快"},{"start":448.636,"end":474.375,"text":"所以這個是這樣 因為這樣聽起來是跨部會啦所以我是希望說你們在行政院會的時候應該也要讓院長知道這個事實就是說你很認真的清查一百多萬那是因為量能關係 你現在只能找到十幾萬那表示至少八十幾萬 不對應該是一百加八十幾的部分還在外面流通那我們當然希望量能夠提升 速度能夠加快嘛是不是移民署不管是網站的狀況也好 還是人力也好能夠配合這個案子來辦理 因為這件事情"},{"start":474.975,"end":495.118,"text":"不是針對移工這件事情其實是針對打炸它的層級應該是相對比較高的應該在打炸條例之下我們去做這個事情不然就不用訂打炸條例了嘛我們在行政院打炸的工作小組那邊在那邊有討論多時的那相關部會大概都有討論過有共識的情況下採取目前可行的措施來處理的"},{"start":495.959,"end":506.127,"text":"我們希望還是要加速這剛好也配合了電信法第五條的修正二電信列管的部分我想這是同樣的精神那我們希望這部分還是要加速啦好不好好我們會繼續努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":581,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時56分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請NCC陳主委。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：主委好。主委，我想今天大家也真的跟本席一樣關切你們的NCC委員名單。自換屆以來，2024（去）年4月30號第一次是陳建仁提名翁柏宗等4位正副主委及委員人選，因為那個時候他是前行政院院長，我們立法院認為應該要尊重新的院長提出新的名單。在上一批名單裡面，到11月30號上一次提名的這幾位都卸任了，因為是11月30號到期。","我們看到卓榮泰院長上來之後，去年11月28號……這全部都是我們搜尋中央社的新聞，它陸陸續續報了幾次，中央社畢竟代表了官方媒體的立場。從11月28號到現在，第一次卓榮泰院長是說在緊鑼密鼓地徵詢中，他陸陸續講了幾次話，最近一次是這個月的5月2號，卓榮泰院長說人選已經確定，可能下週公布。","我想5月2號的下週應該是5月9號前，今天已經是5月28日了，第一個，距離11月28日已經過了半年，距離5月2號也過了26天左右，已經快要4週了，我不知道主委對這個NCC委員名單有沒有什麼樣的消息？有沒有聽到什麼樣的可能性？這個名單什麼時候才會提出來？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報告委員，我這邊無所知悉，權責範圍也不在NCC，所以這邊沒有特別評論。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，主委，我不會特別為難你，我以為你有消息了。我為什麼要特別講出來呢？因為在你們今天送來的解凍報告裡面也包含了一項，就是一般行政中政務人員待遇預算的七分之四之前被凍結，你們今天提出要解凍，所以我就好奇你提解凍的同時，是不是表示不足的人選即將要提出來了，所以你預先做了準備？如果毫無所悉，那你這個解凍完要花到哪裡去？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這個解凍的條件是促請行政院趕快提名，我們已經做到促請的這個動作，有發函給人事總處，人事總處也有轉函到行政院，所以我們就檢具資料附在我們的書面報告裡頭，以陳述「促請」這個作為NCC已經到位了，所以我們促請大院的委員會……"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係。主委，這是你的立場，但我想是這樣啦，因為待會可能也會針對這部分的解凍案討論，其他部分我沒有特別意見，但針對這個，我也表達一下我的意見。我的建議是，這個七分之四的部分你們至少應該先送名單嘛，等你們名單送來的同時就可以解凍；如果連名單都沒有，然後要我解凍，我覺得會讓我們的立場很尷尬啦！我現在解凍了，結果還是沒有名單，那當初凍結的理由其實也還是存在啊，好不好？這是我的立場，要跟主委先說明一下。","好，主委，沒關係，我們先回到業務面。主委，這個人事部分就這樣子，反正我看主委也沒辦法決定嘛，所以沒關係，我們就回到業務面。大家還是很關心詐騙、打詐的議題，之前我們質詢的時候也提過很多次，包含今天本席提出的修法裡面，電信法第五條針對的也是這一類的二類電信使用者，其中最大宗就是俗稱的外勞卡，就是移工電話卡還有黑莓卡的部分。去年就講了要依據新的打詐四法審查這些東西，因為依據統計、照帳面上的數據，我國目前合法的移工人數有83.3萬人，失聯移工估計有8萬人，所以合計起來大概90萬人左右，但是我們售出的移工電話卡大概有221萬支門號，售出門號有兩百多萬，實際上在臺灣的移工，不管失聯還是登記在案的也才90萬人而已，所以表示我們售出的電話卡是二點多倍，甚至高達快要三倍左右的數字。通常他是單獨過來的，按照我國現行法律來講，他們是移工來臺灣，理論上都是單身或一個人過來，他理論上不會持有這麼多卡片，所以去年頒布所謂打詐四法之後，就說要清查移工使用預付卡的部分。我想知道到底從去年到現在清查了多少、還有多少移工卡在外面流通？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，委員剛剛講到重點，在臺灣境內的外籍人士跟持有預付卡的人數有落差，所以我們分階段清查，3月份以前我們清查一證多號的，已經清查完畢，去年11月外籍的預付卡總共有223萬，到4月底我們已經清查完103萬。委員提到已經停用多少？我們已經停用了14萬，然後依據打詐條例第二十二條，只要是他已經出境或者逾期居留，我們會將他停斷話，然後其他的部分會請他重新核資，如果他資格不符，我們也拒絕申請，而拒絕申請的部分也有達到11.4萬。我們會持續進行清查，預計大概8月以前會將三大電信業者全部都清查完畢，中華電信走比較快，大概6月份就會清查完畢。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，你剛剛提到目前為止清查了一百多萬、停用了十幾萬，大概占一成左右，剩下那八十幾萬都是合法的嗎，還是還在清查中？我想了解這個事情。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：還在清查當中。"],["黃委員健豪：所以這八十幾萬也未必在境內？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對！"],["黃委員健豪：實務上，他有沒有在境內不是一個一眼可知的事實嘛，這個問題在哪裡？為什麼這八十幾萬……對我們來講，比如說我人現在在臺灣還是在國外，查我的護照可以很清楚知道我人在哪裡，這些移工也是使用護照出入境，這八十幾萬還沒找到的原因、還不能定案他是在國內繼續工作還是已經出境的原因是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，主要原因是技術上跟量能的問題，因為我們查他有沒有在境內是連到移民署的資料庫，移民署資料庫本身的作業系統白天比較忙，查詢怕會影響、讓系統當掉，所以會用比較深夜的時段查，深夜的時段查也會有能量問題，所以三大大概都會分開、分時處理，因為量能的部分會有限制，所以我們大概沒辦法一次就查多少量。雖然我們有拜託過移民署擴容，但它沒有適度擴容，所以現在的進度是還可以繼續走下去；未來部分，如果他們年度有進一步擴容完成的話，以後查詢的量能會更好、查得會更快。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，這樣聽起來是跨部會，所以我希望你們在行政院會的時候應該也要讓院長知道這個事實。你很認真的清查一百多萬，但是因為量能關係，你現在只能找到十幾萬，表示至少還有八十幾萬……不對，應該是一百加八十幾的部分還在外面流通。我們當然希望量能能夠提升、速度能夠加快，希望移民署不管是網站的狀況還是人力也好，能夠配合這個案子辦理，因為這件事情不是針對移工，這件事情其實是針對打詐，它的層級應該是相對比較高的，應該在打詐條例之下做這個事情，不然就不用定打詐條例了，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，我們在行政院打詐工作小組已經討論多次了，相關部會大概都有討論過，在有共識的情況下採取目前可行的措施處理。"],["黃委員健豪：我們希望還是要加速，這剛好也配合電信法第五條的修正，所謂二類電信列管的部分，這是同樣的精神，我們希望這部分還是要加速，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們會繼續努力。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢。","現在請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":514,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","黃國昌","李昆澤","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","黃健豪","許智傑","徐富癸","林國成","邱若華","林月琴","游顥","王鴻薇","黃健豪"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理 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對不對"},{"start":268.649,"end":287.637,"text":"所以主委你正不贊同就鼓勵全民來投資台灣的股市這個我們從其他國家裡面的一個實施經驗比如說我們現在普遍的這個開發國家都面臨到所謂的未來少子化高齡化未來所謂的"},{"start":288.277,"end":314.535,"text":"退休的壓力所以我們也看到很多國家從大概從2000年左右開始推動所謂的鼓勵全民長期投資資本市場的這樣一個促進措施就是我們各位聽到了很多的ISA就是個人投資儲蓄賬戶的概念我想越來越多的國家朝向這樣建立民眾第三資助的概念來做我想這也是當然投資這有風險我想說就好像"},{"start":316.016,"end":341.318,"text":"我們也無法避免我們的資金總要有個投資的區域就像比如大家談到就是說我們是買基金或是買其他的這個這不同的種類但是我覺得就以投資風險分散的角度來看我覺得資本市場也是未來我們資產配置一個應該是要可以考慮的項目所以聽起來過去講養兒防老現在就是不如買股好"},{"start":343.229,"end":368.943,"text":"就是在資產配置上如果持有適當的股票對於退休之後的一些規劃也是有所幫助那我們再來看一下就是這幾天講得沸沸揚揚的主權基金不曉得主委贊不贊同台灣來成立一個主權基金"},{"start":371.477,"end":385.288,"text":"我在上次也有表達過這國家的政策呢我們當然盡管會立場我們當然是支持但是這部分我們就是覺得這個在這個時候如果需要的話我們比如我們金融市場其實也"},{"start":386.269,"end":387.529,"text":"主權基金規模大概要多大?"},{"start":401.194,"end":427.702,"text":"這個當然要看啦因為我想主權基金這個概念有很多很多種形式有各種各樣的投資策略還有它成立的背景這很難用一個多大來決定說是適當因為比如說國家的規模跟目的性跟你的長期的比如說你的目標這都不一樣還有就是你的資金的屬性從哪裡來這就決定了它整個規模我想很難有一個標準來做這件事情"},{"start":429.104,"end":456.432,"text":"大概我們看起來有的都是超過1.5兆以上全世界主權基金大概有90幾個國家都有設立主委你贊不贊同這些壽險公司可以把海外的資金把它引進回來來投入未來所謂我們要推動的國家的主權基金"},{"start":457.392,"end":474.479,"text":"我剛才跟委員報告過就是說其實全世界受險公司都一樣他們最好的一個資產配置就是同幣別的配置比如他現在在台灣是賣台幣計價的保單他的負債是台幣那他們最好是在台灣能夠找到相對應的資產"},{"start":475.839,"end":499.736,"text":"那這裡面假如它是長期的負債對應一個長期的資產現金流能夠匹配的話它就免除了利率風險也免除了匯率風險這是一個最完美的一個投資結構那我想說假設未來我們有更多的像類似適合比如說受險公司投資的工具我想其實我們的受險公司就會認真的考慮了所以說"},{"start":501.584,"end":511.938,"text":"以後如果壽險公司他要來投我們自己推動的主權基金金管會的態度是正統的"},{"start":512.506,"end":540.669,"text":"就是看未來他發行假設是用公債的形式的話我覺得我們現在公債本來就有是個投資的項目而且我們給的權數也非常非常低對不對那這本來就是我們講就像我們現在很多的這個我們的受險資金是投資海外的公司債目的都是一樣希望維持長期穩定的收益為主那如果說還是同幣別的跟他負債同幣別那當然受險公司當然會"},{"start":542.611,"end":561.067,"text":"會有高度的興趣來看看這樣能夠讓他的資產負債匹配所謂的那個不匹配的程度能夠下降我想這也是一個大家希望樂見的一個發展方向所以你覺得主權基金的話他的每年的獲益應該是幾個百分比以上"},{"start":562.007,"end":585.202,"text":"這個其實有很多的研究,其實主權基金本來也是承擔風險但他們所謂的投資的標的不同就像我們所謂的基金,你期待的報酬是多少不過長期而言,他們一定要有一個自己的目標設定這很難說,你的是積極的還是比較那個,像假設新加坡他有兩個,他的目的就不同"},{"start":586.474,"end":614.609,"text":"比較積極性的大概一年的年報酬率是多少這我很難跟各位講那是簽證到你基金屬性投資什麼標的去年大概7點多%啦這個算是比較積極型的而且操作上也不錯挪威基金也做得還不錯所以你覺得最低最低的話不論你是投資型的或者是保守型的那總是要有一個低標嘛"},{"start":615.965,"end":628.641,"text":"這個是未來我們假設我們設置一個主權基金他們會自己設定自己的目標剛剛委員提到像我們國際內大的主權基金其實在面對很多情況的時候它其實也會面臨到很大的波動很難講說能夠維持一個"},{"start":632.004,"end":658.413,"text":"穩定的報酬不過長期這個都非常非常長期來看那主要是這樣像我們會看到一些成功的啦所以當然你會看到這個指標但是其實像剛剛我講那麼多的主銜基金也不是每一個都是成功所以我們很難有定一個標準那就看未來這個基金的屬性怎麼定義我想這部分自然會有可能還需要一段時間啦那希望大家再多多來研究一下看怎麼樣是否"},{"start":659.013,"end":664.125,"text":"恰當因為最怕的就是一個獨立性的問題還有人謀不章的問題"},{"start":665.905,"end":694.719,"text":"所以這個怎麼樣來公正當然聖地亞哥原則也是有一些遵循的目標我希望在推的時候主委也可以多發表類似國際的現階段的操作他們的嚴整性在哪裡他們成功的案例在哪裡可以多討論一下不過今天OIU OBOSU的這個部分國際金融業務我們希望可以加大力度"},{"start":695.559,"end":716.644,"text":"因為事實上這個努力的空間還很大因為主委希望把台灣變成是亞洲的資產管理中心看起來還需要再加把勁因為最近看到很多台灣很多公司下市"},{"start":718.255,"end":740.064,"text":"這也是透露了一些原因希望主委能多多關心一下上市很不容易就居然有很多的公司是下市下市影響公司 影響員工更重要的是影響了很多廣大的受害的投資人求償無門"},{"start":741.685,"end":753.413,"text":"雖然沒有投保中心還有所有的股票本來明天的期待落空還全部通通變成幣值所以這一點要請主委多多關心剛剛也有委員關心我們會來持續針對這個狀況做一些監控跟管理謝謝好 謝謝明財接著請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":769.926,"end":774.514,"text":"那我們11點50分開放在現場用餐"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":674,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時23分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可不可以請彭主委？"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：彭主委你好。自從川普的關稅大戰開始，在那段時間臺股突然急遽下跌，金管會提出限空令，這段時間為期大概多久？限空令已經解除了，對整個股市未來的發展會如何？對於美國的關稅大戰下一次再引爆，大概是什麼時候？不曉得你們有沒有做一些沙盤推演？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛也有很多委員關注，我們已經算是國際級的資本市場，有限空令是例外，回歸市場機制才是原則的狀態，我想我們也盤點過去針對特殊情況所做的一些緊急因應措施，大概就是1到3個月，平均大概1.5個月，這次也差不多在2個月之內，我們就覺得市場在這個階段，並不是未來不會有波動，這大家都知道，只是我們已經不像上次4月7號那個時候的狀態，我想會儘快回復。剛剛我也提到，我就打個比方，我們出拳久了就會酸軟無力，至少在允許的情況下，我們先收回來，隨時保持警戒，我們才有下次出拳的實力。我的意思是說，本來我們面對未來的不確定就是常態了，我們做過很多很多的模擬推估，我們內部有很多的演練，當然這些都是未來在市場監理的常態，所以我們都會適時提出一些因應的措施，因為未來很難說，就像我們每天大家都會看到不同的國際情勢變化，我想大家也慢慢觀察到了，大家已經不如4月2號，面對相同的訊息，大家所能產生的穩定度跟韌性已經有點不同，這也是我們這時候做這個比較不一樣的決定，但我們絕對不會說我們能預知未來會發生什麼事情，我們只能預知未來都是不可預知的，我們才來做好準備。"],["羅委員明才：我們可以發現臺灣的股民最近好像在洗三溫暖，一下子暴跌、一下又拉升，心臟如果不好的，其實最好不要投入股市做每日的當沖或者是短期的操作。主委，你贊不贊同民眾以長期持有為準，短期的操作參考、參考就好；換言之，請教主委，現在全臺灣股民有開戶的大概有多少人？經常出入的戶頭有多少人、大戶有多少，你們手上應該有資料吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。所謂的大戶要定義一下，我知道我們現在的開戶數應該超過一千萬。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：超過一千萬。"],["羅委員明才：一千萬人，那就大概接近一半嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，應該是有超過一千萬。我們待會馬上請同仁準備一下數字跟委員報告。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對。臺灣的開戶比例算是滿高的，就一般民眾參與資本……我們的開戶數字是1,343萬7,000。"],["羅委員明才：那已經過半了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實。"],["羅委員明才：所以臺灣民眾對於臺灣證券交易市場的參與度、黏著度、關心度其實是非常高的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要看交易實質的實動戶，而這個是開戶數，就像每個人手上都有好多的銀行帳戶，但你常用的可能沒幾個，對不對？"],["羅委員明才：所以主委，你贊不贊同鼓勵全民來投資臺灣的股市？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們從其他國家裡面的實施經驗，比如說，現在普遍的開發國家都面臨少子化、高齡化、未來退休的壓力，我們也看到很多國家大概從2000年左右開始，推動所謂的鼓勵全民長期投資資本市場的促進措施，就是各位聽到很多的ISA，即個人投資儲蓄帳戶的概念，我想越來越多的國家朝向建立民眾第三支柱的概念來做，當然投資有風險，對不對？就好像我們也無法避免我們的資金總要有個投資的去路，例如大家談到買基金或是買其他不同的種類，但就以投資風險分散的角度來看，資本市場也是未來資產配置可以考慮的一個項目。"],["羅委員明才：所以聽起來，過去講養兒防老，現在就是不如買股好。在資產配置上，如果持有適當的股票，對於退休之後的一些規劃，也是有所幫助。","那我們再來看一下這幾天講得沸沸揚揚的主權基金，不曉得主委贊不贊同臺灣成立一個主權基金？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我上次也有表達過，對於國家的政策，我們站在金管會的立場當然是支持，但這部分我們覺得，在這個時候，如果需要的話，就如剛剛有委員提到的，假設未來用發行債券的方式，我想我們的金融市場也可以來參與。"],["羅委員明才：那主委你覺得這個主權基金的規模大概要多大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想主權基金這個概念有很多種形式，有各種各樣的投資策略，還有各自成立的背景，很難用一個多大來決定是否適當，比如國家的規模跟目的性跟主權基金長期的目標都不一樣，還有就是主權基金資金的屬性從哪裡來，這就決定了它整個規模，我想很難有一個標準來做這件事情。"],["羅委員明才：是。我們看起來有的都是超過1.5兆以上，全世大概有九十幾個國家都有設立主權基金，主委你贊不贊同壽險公司可以把海外的資金引回來投入未來我們要推動的國家主權基金？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才跟委員報告過了，其實全世界的壽險公司都一樣，他們最好的資產配置就是同幣別的配置，比如他們現在在臺灣是賣臺幣計價的保單，負債是臺幣，那他們最好是在臺灣能夠找到相對應的資產，那這裡面假如是長期的負債，對一個長期的資產，現金流能夠匹配的話，就免除了利率風險，也免除了匯率風險，這是一個最完美的投資結構，假設未來我們有更多適合壽險公司投資的工具，壽險公司就會認真考慮。"],["羅委員明才：所以以後如果壽險公司要來投資我們自己推動的主權基金，金管會的態度是贊同的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：假設未來它是用公債的形式發行，我覺得我們現在公債本來就有四個投資的項目，而且我們的權數也非常非常低，對不對？就像我們現在很多壽險資金是投資海外的公司債，目的都是一樣，希望維持長期穩定的收益為主，如果還是跟它的負債是同幣別的，那當然壽險公司會有高度的興趣來看看這樣是否能夠讓它的資產負債不匹配程度下降，我想這也是一個大家樂見的發展方向。"],["羅委員明才：所以主委你覺得，主權基金每年的獲益應該是幾個百分比以上？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個有很多的研究，其實主權基金本來也是承擔風險，但是他們的投資標的不同，還有就像我們所有的基金，到底你期待的報酬是多少，長期而言，他們一定要有一個自己的目標設定，這很難說，就是投資屬性是積極的還是比較保守的，比如像新加坡有兩個主權基金，目的就不同，對不對？"],["羅委員明才：比較積極性的，大概一年的年報酬率是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我很難跟各位講，那牽涉到基金屬性和投資什麼標的。"],["羅委員明才：去年大概百分之七點多，這個算是比較積極型的，而且操作上也不錯，挪威基金也做得還不錯，所以主委你覺得最低的話，不論是投資型的或者是保守型的，總是要有個低標。"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來假設我們設置主權基金，他們會自己設定自己的目標。剛剛委員提到，像國際上大的主權基金，其實在面對很多情況時也會面臨到很大的波動，很難能夠維持穩定的報酬，不過這都以非常非常長期來看。主要是這樣，像我們會看到一些成功的，所以你當然會看到這個指標，但是其實像剛剛委員講的，那麼多主權基金也不是每一個都成功，所以我們很難訂一個標準，就看未來這個基金的屬性怎麼定義，我想這部分自然會設定好……"],["羅委員明才：可能還是需要一段時間，希望大家再多多來研究一下，看怎麼樣是否恰當，因為最怕的就是獨立性的問題，還有人謀不臧的問題，所以這個怎麼樣來公正？當然聖地牙哥原則也有一些遵循的目標，我希望在推的時候主委也可以多發表觀點，指出國際現階段操作的嚴整性在哪裡、成功的案例在哪裡，可以多討論一下。","今天有關OIU、OBU、OSU的國際金融業務，我們希望加大力度，因為事實上努力的空間還很大，主委希望把臺灣變成亞洲的資產管理中心，看起來還需要再加把勁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們持續努力。"],["羅委員明才：因為最近看到臺灣有很多公司下市，這也透露了一些原因，希望主委能多多關心一下，公司上市很不容易，現在居然有很多公司下市，下市影響公司、影響員工，更重要的是影響了很多廣大的、受害的投資人，他們求償無門，雖然我們有投保中心，但是所有持有這些股票的投資人期待落空，股票還全部統統變成壁紙，所以這一點要請主委多多關心。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛也有委員關心，我們會持續針對這個狀況來做一些監控跟管理。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅明才委員。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。","我們11時50分開放在現場用餐。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 2 案、\n(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅\n廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」\n等6案；二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：(一)行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳\n濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部\n分條文修正草案」等 4 案、 ( 二 ) 本院委員林楚茵等 17 人、委員王鴻薇等 19 人、委員郭國文等 18\n人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等\n4案、(三)本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條\n條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145401_00006"}}},{"id":"161998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161998","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f2424c472fc75b1d6db1b5ee1b3bf308d2e87f2bf784d93fc30da25f9f11a3780b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:27:25 - 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剛剛那個邱志偉委員在提到說我們駐日的單位當中已經增加了農業族那主要是針對這個台灣跟日本之間漁業往來的部分他說人家石斑一讓我們過去那里當我們一讓他什麼什麼過來其實有一個考量就是我們之前目前一直在討論的就是那個河豚的問題就我知道應該略有進展嘛那目前的進度怎麼樣有沒有可能今年開放"},{"start":42.442,"end":43.463,"text":"順利的話今年有沒有可能"},{"start":62.138,"end":85.448,"text":"這個部分要請教食藥署我們這邊沒有辦法幫食藥署做這也要關心一下關於這個部分我跟委員講河豚的部分其實我認為它只要是安全的就應該可以進來當然是安全那相對的就是說我們在雙邊在談的時候也希望說我們開了河豚以後也希望說它能夠更積極的有一些我們有在面對外銷的這個部分我們就側面了解應該今年底是有機會啦是有力啦好不好我知道這個我了解"},{"start":91.671,"end":114.796,"text":"這樣也可以化解剛剛邱委員的疑慮那另外回到今天的主題我其實非常感謝我們經紀委會許許多多的同仁對於這一個本席的提案的予以贊同那我提案內容其實跟昭緯的內容是相似的那就內容的本身來說的話我必須提到這時候提這個案子的原因是因為我們歷經了四年我們覆蓋率其實都是在30%以下來進行排回"},{"start":117.117,"end":137.652,"text":"那就制度已經到了一個天花板一個瓶頸的情況之下我們應該思考如果把這個覆蓋率能夠打開所以本期的體驗用意是在這邊也因此希望說農民在繳納這個以基本工資來計算的話繳納2859的時候相對政府提撥能不能提到1.5倍剛剛提到預算不過是增加15.5億而已"},{"start":140.034,"end":154.523,"text":"那這個強化這個安全跟韌性的部分這個是重要你看到覆蓋率的部分覆蓋率是總人口數的總投保人數的部分也不過是28.7另外一個數字從青龍的部分本來我們是照顧未來的青龍希望從業人口增加"},{"start":155.484,"end":174.624,"text":"更低耶只有25%耶老實講我也是很訝異啦所以訝異的情況底下當然我們提出來的時候那個貴部有提出一些回應你說其實換算於勞保的時候到時候幾副金額是相差無幾從社會保險的角度來看是這樣子可是我要跟那個主委說明喔"},{"start":175.445,"end":195.183,"text":"就這個部分裡頭我們在這個投保年資的部分有將近9成都是在一個基本上都不可能用投保30年來計算的它可能中間在進來對中間進來或年齡其實根本不到嘛所以你用30的做一個計算跟比對其實就有它的問題點的存在"},{"start":196.904,"end":223.421,"text":"最高金額夯不啷噹也不過是一萬塊錢而已一萬塊錢而已一點然後你去看那個金額喔所有來投保有一個現象我只要投保了我就繳納10%有沒有都是最高的唯一對最高的對不對這個高達這個九成以上那也就是說經濟誘因是最關鍵的嘛經濟誘因最關鍵當中不外乎是兩種嘛一種就是我付出的比較少我拿到比較多嘛"},{"start":224.562,"end":236.656,"text":"這是最關鍵的啊所以說是不是制度上有可能朝向這種方向來進行本席的提案其實也不過是我繳納的金額跟政府提撥的金額的倍數比能夠增加"},{"start":237.947,"end":249.083,"text":"那這個方向有沒有可能部長我想第一個我絕對沒有否定說委員的提案不好我說委員的提案就是我用100塊農民繳100塊我們繳150我們提報150嘛對對這個最後整體的退休會比較多一點這是一個方案"},{"start":255.091,"end":276.86,"text":"那另外我們有想到就是如果同樣是一百的話他只要繳八十類似八十我們繳一百二那這樣的話也是減輕農民的負擔嘛這也是啊也許兩個案可以同時設計不一定說一定不是委員的版本就是我們的版本財政部長你這種說法是有創意的啦其實基本上你只要把那個"},{"start":278.862,"end":294.703,"text":"那個這個繳納方跟提撥方的這個比例來做調整往多的方式上來做調整基本上我是覺得這一個覆蓋率的提升的可能性會就會增加是 所以我們會會去再更精準的試算而且我們也安排了跟院長做報告那你大概什麼時候會送院"},{"start":295.643,"end":324.343,"text":"我想齁我們送院之前我們現在已經安排跟院長做專案報告對那就是你是說下禮拜嗎最近最近喔最近喔我私下的報告然後院會大概預計什麼時候會送然後跟他報告如果說出門上如果說院長同意這個方向的話我們就會把完整的方案報院報院大概什麼時候啊這個下個六月可不可以不是這個就是看院長聽取了以後的一個決定院長如果沒有意見應該六月就可以到行政院會了嗎報了以後就會"},{"start":325.243,"end":339.746,"text":"各個單位然後下個會議就會送進來我希望六月啦好不好以六月為目標啦最後一個問題要問您的這我之前一直關心台南的牛肉湯的問題它受到飼養成本增加你看到那個近五年的肉牛的飼養的場數從778場降為628場那飼養的這個數量從34000變成30000"},{"start":347.868,"end":371.568,"text":"變成三萬喔那這減少就是這主要原因當然是這一個關稅的問題吧紐西蘭部分還有未來美國如果牛乳開放的話同樣會遭到這種排擠那我們換算了一下呢現在的乳牛的這個飼養量有一部分的肉源是來自於乳牛淘汰的乳牛四千淘汰四千兩百頭去年啊今年預計只剩下三千七啊"},{"start":372.248,"end":400.602,"text":"也就是說肉牛整體的部分減少然後淘汰跟著減少那未來可能還會再減少但是對肉的需求卻不斷的增加卻不斷的增加那以至於現在的這個成本價已經逐漸攀升從150已經變成190畢竟200大關那這種庶民美食如果一旦變成一個鄉親美食的話都會影響到整個城市的發展跟那個遊客的來"},{"start":402.083,"end":431.483,"text":"萊克素啊部長我已經問了第三次了啦有沒有什麼好方法我跟委員做一個報告以現在的雖然說我們去年有一些淘汰寡產牛可是現在每一個月的進到屠宰場的數量是還算穩定啦還算穩定但是長久來看的話我們希望把乳牛的量控制在大概12萬頭左右然後整個的牛奶是控制在43萬噸左右在這個目標之下"},{"start":432.244,"end":450.944,"text":"牛的部分可能降到某個程度不會再往下降所以我們希望說在這個部分問題是一直在降現在是現實上相關的數字都在降價格一直在攀升但是屠宰場每一天屠宰的量並沒有太多的變化"},{"start":452.529,"end":478.808,"text":"所以這個部分我們也會跟消費地做溝通你把最近你的調查報告給本席一份給本席一份好不好那你的趨勢發展也看一下 那整個牛肉的價格也不斷攀升 請你注意一下市場中端市場的價格已經往上攀升了啦從以前100變120 150都有了事實上我就在做一般的市場了不用其實特意做民調 平常我們就生活在那個城市當中 我們大家也很清楚啊"},{"start":479.469,"end":486.122,"text":"價格是上升但是投採量是穩定的部長早時間下來吃牛肉湯了我請你啦你就知道了啦好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時27分）主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長，剛剛邱志偉委員提到駐日單位中已經增加了農業組嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員國文：主要是針對臺灣跟日本之間漁業往來的部分，他說人家讓我們的石斑魚過去，那我們也理當讓他們的某某產品過來。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：其實有一個考量啦！我們之間目前一直在討論的就是河豚問題，據我知道應該略有進展，那麼目前進度怎麼樣？有沒有可能今年開放？"],["陳副署長建佑：報告委員，河豚部分整體主要是由衛福部食藥署洽談，站在漁業署的立場，則是針對跟我們這邊是否符合對等性的問題，基本上，現在主要還是由食藥署處理。"],["郭委員國文：順利的話，今年有沒有可能啊？"],["陳副署長建佑：這部分要請教食藥署，我們沒辦法幫食藥署說明。"],["郭委員國文：你們要關心一下啊！要掌握進度。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我跟委員講，河豚的部分，其實我認為只要牠是安全的，就應該可以進來。"],["郭委員國文：當然是安全的。"],["陳部長駿季：相對的就是雙邊在談的時候，我們也希望開放河豚以後，對方能夠更積極地讓我們把一些品項外銷過去……"],["郭委員國文：對嘛！就像石斑可以銷過去一樣，是互惠嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定努力啦！"],["郭委員國文：根據我的側面了解，應該今年底有機會啦！其實部長很努力啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，這我了解。"],["郭委員國文：這樣也可以化解邱委員剛剛的疑慮啦！","另外回到今天的主題，我非常感謝經濟委員會許許多多同仁對於本席提案予以贊同，我的提案內容其實跟召委的內容是相似的。就內容本身來說，我必須提到提這個案子的原因。歷經了4年，我們的覆蓋率其實都在30%以下徘徊，在制度已經到達天花板、瓶頸的情況下，我們應該思考如何把覆蓋率打開，所以本席提案的用意在這邊。我也希望在農民以基本工資計算繳納2,859元的時候，政府提撥也能相對提高到1.5倍，剛剛已經提到，預算不過是增加15.5億元而已嘛！而強化安全跟韌性這個部分是重要的，你看覆蓋率部分，覆蓋率占總投保人數的比例也不過28.7%。另外還有一個數字，就是青農部分，我們本來就要照顧未來的青農，希望從業人口增加，但是更低欸！只有25%欸！老實講，我也很訝異啊！當然貴部有提出一些回應，你們說其實換算於勞保，到時候給付金額相差無幾，從社會保險的角度來看是這樣，可是我要跟部長說明，在投保年資部分，將近九成基本上都不可能用投保30年來計算的……"],["陳部長駿季：可能中途才加進來。"],["郭委員國文：對，可能中間才進來或者是年齡根本不到，所以用30年來計算跟比對其實就有問題點存在，最高金額夯不啷噹也不過1萬塊錢而已。再看金額，所有投保人都有一個現象：只要投保了就繳納10%，有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：都以繳最高的為主。"],["郭委員國文：都是最高的對不對？高達九成以上，也就是說經濟誘因是最關鍵的嘛！而經濟誘因不外乎兩種，其中一種就是付出的比較少，拿到的比較多，這是最關鍵的啊！所以制度上是不是有可能朝向這種方向進行？本席的提案其實也不過就是繳納金額跟政府提撥金額的倍數比能夠增加，這個方向有沒有可能，部長？"],["陳部長駿季：第一，我絕對沒有否定、說委員的提案不好。委員的提案就是農民繳100元，我們提撥150元嘛！最後整體退休金會比較多一點，這是一種方案。另外，我們也想到，如果同樣是100元的話，農民只要繳80元，我們繳120元，這樣的話也是減輕農民的負擔嘛！"],["郭委員國文：這也是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：也許兩個方案可以同時設計，未必不是委員的版本就是我們的版本。"],["郭委員國文：我不否認部長這種說法是有創意的啦！基本上，只要把繳納方跟提撥方的比例加以調整，而且往多的方向調整，我覺得覆蓋率提升的可能性就會增加啊！"],["陳部長駿季：是，所以我們會更精準地試算，而且也安排了向院長報告。"],["郭委員國文：大概什麼時候會送院？"],["陳部長駿季：在送院之前，我們現在已經安排向院長做專案報告。"],["郭委員國文：你是說下禮拜嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：最近。"],["郭委員國文：最近喔？"],["陳部長駿季：最近就會報告。"],["郭委員國文：然後預計什麼時候送院會？"],["陳部長駿季：跟院長報告後，如果院長同意這個方向，我們就會將完整方案報院。"],["郭委員國文：報院大概是什麼時候啊？6月可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：這就看院長聽取以後的決定。"],["郭委員國文：院長如果沒有意見，應該6月就可以送到行政院會了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：行政院會通過以後會送到各單位，下個會期就會送進來。"],["郭委員國文：好，我希望是6月啦！好不好？以6月為目標啦！","最後一個問題要問您，我之前一直關心臺南牛肉湯的問題，主要是受到飼養成本增加影響，近五年肉牛飼養的廠數從778廠降為628廠，飼養數量從三萬四變成三萬，減少的主要原因當然是關稅問題，除了紐西蘭的部分，未來美國牛乳如果開放，同樣會造成這種排擠現象。我們換算了一下現在的乳牛飼養量，因為有一部分肉源也來自淘汰的乳牛，去年淘汰4,200頭，今年預計只剩下3,700頭，也就是說整體肉牛減少，乳牛淘汰量又跟著減少，未來可能還會再減少，對於肉的需求卻不斷增加，以至於現在的成本價逐漸攀升，已經從150元變成190元了，逼近200大關啊！這種庶民美食一旦變成鑲金美食的話，會影響整個城市的發展跟遊客的來客數啊！部長，我已經問了第三次，有沒有什麼好方法？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，雖然去年淘汰一些寡產牛，可是現在每個月進到屠宰場的數量還算穩定啦！長久來看的話，我們希望把乳牛的量控制在12萬頭左右，整體牛奶控制在43萬噸左右，在這個目標之下，牛隻數量降到某個程度之後可能不會再往下降。我們希望這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：問題就是一直在降！現實上的相關數字都在降，而價格一直攀升。"],["陳部長駿季：但是屠宰場每一天屠宰的量並沒有太多變化，所以這部份我們也會跟消費地溝通。"],["郭委員國文：你們把最近的調查報告提供給本席一份，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["郭委員國文：我也看一下趨勢發展的方向，整個牛肉價格不斷攀升，請你注意一下，事實上，終端市場的價格已經往上攀升了啦！從以前的100元變成120元，連150元的也都有了。事實上，就看一般市場，不必刻意做民調，因為我們平常就生活在那個城市中，當然清楚啊！"],["陳部長駿季：價格上升，但是屠宰量是穩定的，這個問題我們會來處理。"],["郭委員國文：好啦！部長找時間下來吃牛肉湯，我請你啦！你就知道了，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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11:33:10","影片長度":"00:14:26","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T11:18:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T11:33:10+08:00","duration":866,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.25409375,"end":3.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.2115937500000005,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.77221875,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.56846875,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.27659375,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.18346875,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.469718750000002,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.570968750000002,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.37659375,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.01471875,"end":51.212843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.38159375,"end":53.440343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.946593750000005,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":59.92034375,"end":67.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.63221875,"end":79.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":81.06471875000001,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.55784375,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.38034375000001,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.83596875,"end":88.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.27034375000001,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.27846875,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.66159375000001,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.63159375000001,"end":103.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.45784375000001,"end":110.78159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.33846875,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.77659375,"end":123.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.84784375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.13471875,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.01159375,"end":125.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.58096875000001,"end":130.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":128.98971875,"end":129.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.37346875,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.59284375000001,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.84096875,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.03471875,"end":146.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":148.86846875,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.75846875000002,"end":151.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":151.45034375,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.44596875000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.96909375,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.71159375000002,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.69096875000002,"end":205.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.02409375000002,"end":281.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.55221875,"end":284.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":285.67409375,"end":288.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":288.91409375,"end":372.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":372.63096875,"end":376.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":377.13659375000003,"end":397.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.97284375000004,"end":399.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.32284375,"end":407.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.58346875,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部長我想請教我看到國會院兒童醫學及健康研究中心一些相關資料在2019年有提出一個報告就是2030年兒童醫療與健康政策建言書"},{"start":50.049,"end":78.563,"text":"那部長你大約知道這樣的一個就是有關兒童醫療健康的一個研究那我想請教就是說這個5年來因為它是2019年5月提出來的那這份成果我們在網路上看到那除了這份有這樣的一個研究報告之外那還有其他針對兒童健康的研究還有其他的這種研究報告嗎"},{"start":81.127,"end":88.981,"text":"就是兒童醫學及健康研究中心國衛院的國衛院今天有人來嗎有有有 副院長"},{"start":90.92,"end":110.436,"text":"追訓的過程當中我當然是也有參與提出的建言我想我們也都有用各種方式在努力我想請教2019年到現在兒童醫療跟健康的政策"},{"start":112.615,"end":136.454,"text":"除了這一份之外,還有其他份嗎?還是就只有這一份,從2019到現在也5年多的時間?國會院裡面的有兒童醫學及健康研究中心這是我們群體健康研究所,他們主導的一個研究中心那還有其他的研究嗎?針對兒童健康,針對兒童醫療,就只有這一份"},{"start":138.343,"end":146.67,"text":"那我想請教就是說這個我們國衛院底下這個兒童醫學及健康研究中心平常是在做什麼這個"},{"start":154.11,"end":174.94,"text":"我這邊補充一下就是那個兒童健康運動中心有一部分的成員現在大部分至少有一半以上的時間是協助我們做優化兒童醫療網裡面的所謂的食物的運轉中心的一個管理中心然後這個管理中心其實是透過協助我們推動兒童醫療網裡面做一些我們政策這邊的一個回饋"},{"start":175.66,"end":204.78,"text":"包括就是說我們現在在推動的核心醫院專責醫院重點醫院跟所謂的合作的網絡以外幼兒專責醫師這裡面到底怎麼樣才能夠往健康的方向去推動然後那裡面包含了幼兒專責醫師譬如說我要去提醒就是像那個過胖或是氣喘控制這個比較簡單的以及額虐的部分大概在協助裡面都是透過我們優化兒童醫療網的成果來做政策的一個算是"},{"start":205.961,"end":221.78,"text":"調整謝謝市長我今天為什麼會問這樣的一個議題就是說我們國衛院這個兒童研究中心因為我們在網路上看到就是有關這個兒童醫療跟健康的政策那這個研究是在2019年"},{"start":222.921,"end":239.798,"text":"到現在也將近這個五六年的時間那另外我看到就是說在前天中山這個大學他有一個跨校合作的研究就是說夜市夜市營業場所產生的這個空氣污染物會滲透到鄰近家庭室內的這個環境"},{"start":241.139,"end":255.004,"text":"那對兒童的肺功能造成不良的影響那這個是一個中山大學一個跨校的一個合作那我也看到就是說我們這個國衛院兒童研究中心曾經也有針對"},{"start":257.166,"end":280.704,"text":"這個PM2.5就是說跟會造成我們兒童的這個一些影響或是說一般民眾的這個影響就是說在這個網路上面都有揭露啦那我為什麼會特別這樣講因為就是說我們這個這個國衛院的這個兒童研究中心在網站上面的這個資料其實我覺得真的是真的是"},{"start":285.711,"end":301.012,"text":"一直都沒有更新然後就是這個數字或者是說錯字也都沒有更新就掛在這個網路上也掛了五六年所以我想要知道就是說到底這個國衛院的兒童研究中心"},{"start":302.133,"end":321.628,"text":"應該是一個政策的提供對不對應該是一個政策的提供那如果他提供的這個資料是錯誤的或在網路上面的這個資料是錯誤的譬如說現在這個國衛院兒童研究中心網站上面一個新知專欄就針對就是說兒童的流感疫苗"},{"start":322.329,"end":346.708,"text":"打或不打爸媽好煩惱的這樣一個衛教內容那上面有寫說目前國內具有流感疫苗許可證的廠商計有總共有4家啦那我上面我就知道說那我們疾管署5月2號的這個新聞稿表示說國內取得三家流感疫苗許可證的廠商總共有5家那如果說國會院是一個兒童研究中心是要讓我們"},{"start":348.43,"end":371.124,"text":"這個所有爸媽得到最新的訊息的話應該是要提供最新的資訊那為什麼所提供的這個資訊都不是最新的那另外就是說我剛剛有在那個上面有秀出一個就是說那個我們的這個PM2.5或者空氣有沒有就是那個PM2.5這個行政院環境保護數"},{"start":373.545,"end":397.218,"text":"這個這個也是在2015年這樣子一個這樣的一個錯誤的一個文字然後就掛在那邊也掛了這麼多年所以我都覺得說你們到底這個國家國衛院的兒童研究中心到底有沒有在做事或者是在網路上面的這個訊息錯誤然後也掛在那邊五六年然後完全都不更新的"},{"start":400.607,"end":424.567,"text":"我想如果有這樣的情況,我們當然要去了解,不曉得副院長有沒有要補充?謝謝委員的關心,我們虛心接受指教,這中間有一些落差,特別是跟其他部門之間的一致化,這個我們會立即做檢討我們當然希望國衛院的兒童研究中心、健康研究中心,應該是提供好的政策"},{"start":425.948,"end":449.413,"text":"當然我為什麼會一直這樣提我們希望就是說每個孩子都能夠得到一個好的照顧然後尤其是在現在少子化那我們當然說每個孩子都不能少那一定都要得到好的一個醫療照顧那如果說國衛院的一個政策或者是提供的資訊訊息都跟不上原本這個疾管署或者是跟不上"},{"start":450.553,"end":471.749,"text":"這樣子原本的這個其他部會的話其實我覺得這個應該是要好好再去檢討一下可能也要你們內部可能要再做一個檢討啦另外我想請教部長就是在上個月總諮詢的時候我有特別提到就是說兒童要有一個專責的行政單位那當時部長這邊也有特別提到就是說會你們這邊會去做研議"},{"start":477.273,"end":482.548,"text":"那我想請教就是說目前的進度到底是怎樣好我想謝謝"},{"start":485.556,"end":513.165,"text":"而校專者單位也是很多人的期望啦然後我想政府也非常的重視那所以但是這牽涉到蠻多人力組織的各種必須要去再去調整整合所以一直在努力的溝通中但是會往正面的正向的方向來做我想我們希望能夠很快的有一個"},{"start":514.125,"end":531.727,"text":"整個協調以後的成果那在這當中我們也不會輸入任何一個兒少需要照顧的一個各種項目然後這部分還是因為就是過去分散在幾乎以衛護部來講幾乎有八個司署在管道有管道兒童的"},{"start":533.259,"end":559.064,"text":"今天要去處理就是一個我們一直在克服的問題這八個都做得很好都有它特別的一個單位在項目上面請大家放心一定沒有一個會輸了的在兒童的成長過程當中絕對都有來負責現在如果要把它整理就是需要組織架構這個我們會一直在努力"},{"start":559.504,"end":588.115,"text":"那部長我希望說這個兒童要有一個專責的行政單位我覺得希望在你你能夠積極來推動因為不要讓所有的兒童的這個議題都散落在各部會另外就我剛剛有特別提到就是說國衛院的這個兒童健康研究中心他可能就是研究一個政策那臨床的部分臨床兒童的一個健康的研究中心其實現在台大醫院兒童醫院現在他們就有一個"},{"start":589.156,"end":609.314,"text":"這樣的一個這個中心那也希望說政府能夠支持那之前我在這邊也有特別提到就是說希望部長這邊我們衛福部這邊能夠支持那除了國衛院本身我們的一個政策的一個這個研究中心之外那臨床的部分是不是也要有一個"},{"start":610.855,"end":635.797,"text":"這樣子的一個健康醫療的研究中心讓所有的兒童醫院可以一起合作那臨床碰到什麼樣的這個疾病或者是這個臨床所有的醫師其實也可以一起共同經營一起合作所以讓每個孩子在這個醫療上都能夠得到一個好的救治醫治所以我是不是可以再請部長針對這一部分你可以再做一個回應"},{"start":636.462,"end":661.569,"text":"好我想台大醫院願意來承擔這個國家這樣子比較尤其集中男男症的一個研究個人深表敬佩那其實現在的研究資源是有限的所以如果能夠有一個比較專門的一個機構那對於兒少的一個研究應該是有更多的資源那這個部分的角色到底是屬於在研究呢"},{"start":662.429,"end":688.53,"text":"還是在臨床的應用呢這部分我們會再跟台大醫院來坐下來好好的來談一下他的方向以及說這個資源負責的部門是應該哪一個對他的這個發展他們想要的發展可以得到最好的幫忙讓他能夠真的是發展下去這樣子我們會跟台大醫院而醫醫院這邊來努力"},{"start":690.011,"end":707.503,"text":"部長你應該也知道就是說兒童醫院其實在所有的這個醫院當中大家會覺得是兒科的這部分其實是不會賺錢的那大家如果說願意付出然後也希望就是說因為讓孩子能夠得到一個好的醫治的話其實我覺得應該衛福部這邊應該要這個來支持"},{"start":712.026,"end":735.04,"text":"然後也要投入更多的資源因為真的少子化真的是很嚴重部長這個去年去年農年這個差不多13萬那我在想今年應該人數應該會更少新生兒人數應該會更少所以如果說願意生敢生然後已經生下來的這些孩子我們希望他都能夠平安健康的長大"},{"start":736.041,"end":742.17,"text":"所以我們希望就是說在這個醫療上面能夠讓所有的孩子所有的兒童都能夠得到好的一個醫治"},{"start":742.844,"end":767.715,"text":"好我想我們國家以及我們衛生的部門是全力往這方面來努力謝謝委員的指教這個絕對是我們日以繼夜在希望大家能改生生出來照顧好我上次已經有詢問過你了那你也這樣子就像你今天回答我的這樣子所以我們希望說要有一些進度啦譬如說這個兒童的專責單位或者是兒童的"},{"start":768.736,"end":783.398,"text":"這個台大醫院他們有一些臨床的這個兒童的醫療健康的研究中心類似這樣子的話我覺得應該是要有一些進度而不是你每次跟我講就是還要再討論或者是還要再跟他們討論或者還要再研究"},{"start":784.483,"end":800.804,"text":"兒童研究中心劉玉萍市長剛好出處那裡我補充一下跟委員報告一下進度就是大概在3月左右的時候我自己就帶同我們到台大兒童醫院這邊了解一下他們的需求"},{"start":801.545,"end":825.64,"text":"然後那如果只有臨床研究的部分的話需要參與的單位就變得是國科會也要一起進來支持嘛然後那他們跟我說他們想做的是健康以健康這邊來講的話其實我就說如果是台大兒童醫院沒有找公共衛生相關的學者其實在這一塊上面就沒有我們現在這樣的講的研究議題的廣度所以經過討論之後其實台大醫院就說"},{"start":826.3,"end":843.826,"text":"那他可能就是短期的這個計畫原本是由教育部提供的這個可能要再做延長然後那所以他們現在正在進行就是內部的一個程序因為光要把它從原來只有臨床的要擴展到健康的時候要去做的協作單位變多了"},{"start":845.126,"end":862.232,"text":"然後那是三月的時候的事情所以就是我們現在是在等台大同學醫院他們就是有一個內部的公司之後需要再做協作的時候我們跟他們其實有保持良好的聯繫管道我們希望能夠有一些進度啦好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1331,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時18分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。我提醒部長還有衛福部相關的官員，法定的社福預算不會因為一般性補助款有所變動，而影響到任何該支付的法定社會福利預算，這部分要明確的表達清楚，好不好？"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝主席。部長，本席看到國衛院兒童醫學及健康研究中心一些相關資料，他們在2019年有提出一個報告，就是2030年兒童醫療與健康政策建言書，部長大約知道這是有關兒童醫療健康的一個研究，因為它是2019年5月提出來的成果，請問這五年來，我們在網路上看到的，除了這份研究報告之外，還有其他針對兒童健康的研究報告嗎？就是國衛院的兒童醫學及健康研究中心。國衛院，今天有人來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有，副院長有來。在這一份的過程當中，我當然是也有參與；所提出的建言，我們也都有用各種方式在努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教的是，從2019年到現在，兒童醫療跟健康的這個政策研究，除了這一份報告之外，還有其他份嗎？還是就只有這一份？從2019到現在，也有五年多的時間。"],["邱部長泰源：國衛院裡面有兒童醫學及健康研究中心。"],["許副院長惠桓：報告委員，這是我們群體健康研究所邱弘毅所長他們所主導的一個研究中心。"],["黃委員秀芳：我知道，針對兒童健康、兒童醫療，還有其他的研究嗎？還是就只有這一份？我想請教，國衛院底下這個兒童醫學及健康研究中心平常是在做什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：請劉司長說明。"],["劉司長越萍：我這邊補充一下，兒童健康研究中心有一部分的成員，現在至少有一半以上的時間，是在協助我們做優化兒童醫療網裡面實務運轉的一個管理中心，這個管理中心其實是協助我們推動兒童醫療網，做一些政策的回饋，包括我們現在推動的核心醫院、專責醫院、重點醫院，跟合作網絡以外的幼兒專責醫師，到底怎麼樣才能夠往健康的方向去推動；然後那裡面包含了幼兒專責醫師，譬如我們要去提醒像過胖或是氣喘控制這個是比較簡單的，以及兒虐的部分。大概在協助裡面，都是透過我們優化兒童醫療網的成果來做政策的一個調整。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝司長，我今天會問這樣一個議題，是因為我們在網路上看到國衛院兒童研究中心，有關兒童醫療跟健康政策的這個研究是在2019年，到現在也將近五、六年的時間。另外我在前天看到中山大學有一個跨校合作的研究，即：夜市營業場所產生的空氣污染物，會滲透到鄰近家庭室內的環境，對兒童的肺功能造成不良的影響，這個是中山大學的一個跨校合作。同時我也看到國衛院兒童研究中心曾針對PM2.5會對兒童或是一般民眾造成影響，這些在網路上面都有揭露。我為什麼會特別這樣講，是因為國衛院兒童研究中心在網站上面的資料，真的是一直都沒有更新，裡面的數字或是錯字，也都沒有更新，在這個網路上也掛了五、六年！所以我想要知道，國衛院的兒童研究中心，應該是政策的提供，對不對？如果它提供的資料是錯誤的，或在網路上面的這個資料是錯誤的，譬如國衛院兒童研究中心網站上面的一個新知專欄，就針對兒童的流感疫苗打或不打，爸媽好煩惱這樣一個衛教內容，上面寫著目前國內具有流感疫苗許可證的廠商總共有四家，可是疾管署5月2日的新聞稿表示，國內取得三價流感疫苗許可證的廠商總共有五家。如果國衛院的兒童研究中心是要讓所有爸媽得到最新訊息的話，應該是要提供最新的資訊，為什麼所提供的資訊都不是最新的？","另外就是我剛剛秀出空氣中的PM2.5資料──行政院環境保護署2015年，這樣一個錯誤的文字，然後就掛在那邊這麼多年。所以，國衛院的兒童研究中心到底有沒有在做事？在網路上面的訊息錯誤，也掛在那邊五、六年，完全都不更新的！"],["邱部長泰源：我想，如果有這樣的情況，我們當然要去了解，不曉得副院長有沒有要補充報告？"],["許副院長惠桓：謝謝委員關心，我們虛心接受指教。這中間有一些落差，特別是跟其他部門之間的一致化，我們回去會立即做檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望國衛院的兒童健康研究中心，應該是提供好的政策；我為什麼會一直這樣提，就是希望每個孩子都能夠得到好的照顧，尤其現在少子化，每個孩子都不能少，一定都要得到一個好的醫療照顧，如果國衛院的政策或是提供的資訊、訊息，都跟不上原本的這個疾管署或其他部會的話，我覺得這個應該要好好再去檢討一下，你們內部可能要再做一個檢討。","另外，我想請教部長，上個月在總質詢的時候，我有特別提到兒童要有一個專責的行政單位，部長當時也說你們這邊會去做研議，請問目前的進度到底怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，兒少專責單位是很多人的期望，政府也非常的重視，但這牽涉到各種滿多的人力組織，必須再去調整整合，我們一直都在努力溝通中，也會往正面的方向來做。我們希望能夠很快有一個協調後的成果，在這當中，我們也不會疏漏任何兒少需要照顧的各種項目，這個部分因為過去比較分散，以衛福部來講，幾乎有八個司署都有管到兒童的部分，這部分要如何處理，就是我們現在一直在克服的問題。這八個部門都做得很好，都有它特別的一個單位，請大家放心，在項目上面，一定沒有一個會去疏漏的，在兒童成長過程當中，絕對都有負責到。現在如果要把它整合，那個就需要有組織架構，這個我們會一起來努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長，兒童要有一個專責的行政單位，我希望你能夠積極來推動，不要讓兒童的議題散落在各部會。","另外，我剛剛有特別提到，國衛院的兒童健康研究中心它可能就是研究一個政策，在臨床的部分，一個兒童的健康研究中心，其實現在臺大兒童醫院他們就有一個這樣的中心，也希望政府能夠支持。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：之前我在這邊也有特別提到，希望衛福部這邊能夠支持，除了國衛院本身的一個政策研究中心之外，臨床的部分是不是也要有一個健康醫療的研究中心？讓所有的兒童醫院可以一起合作，臨床碰到什麼樣的疾病，或者是臨床所有的醫師也可以一起共同經營，一起合作，讓每個孩子在醫療上都能夠得到好的救治、醫治，是不是可以請部長針對這部分再做一個回應？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想臺大醫院願意來承擔國家這樣的一個急重難罕症的研究，個人深表敬佩，其實現在的研究資源是有限的，所以如果能夠有一個比較專門的機構，對於兒少的研究應該是有更多的資源。至於這個部分的角色到底是屬於研究還是臨床的應用，我們會再跟臺大醫院坐下來好好談一下它的方向，以及這個資源負責的部門應該是哪一個，讓他們想要的發展可以得到最好的幫忙，讓他們真的能夠發展下去，我們會跟臺大醫院、兒童醫院這邊來努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，你應該也知道，兒童醫院在所有的醫院當中，大家會覺得兒科的部分其實是不會賺錢的啦！所以大家如果願意付出，也希望讓孩子能夠得到好的醫治的話，我覺得衛福部這邊應該要來支持，也要投入更多的資源，因為少子化真的是很嚴重哦！部長，去年龍年差不多有13萬新生兒，我想今年的新生兒人數應該會更少，所以如果願意生、敢生，然後已經生下來的這些孩子，我們希望他能夠平安健康地長大，在醫療上面讓所有的兒童都能夠得到好的醫治。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想我們國家以及衛生部門是全力往這方面來努力，謝謝委員的指教，這個絕對是我們日以繼夜在……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所以我們希望未來，因為上一次……"],["邱部長泰源：希望大家能敢生，然後生出來就要照顧好，教育好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我上次已經有詢問過你了，你也是像今天這樣子在回答我，我們希望有一些進度啦！譬如說兒童的專責單位，或者是臺大醫院他們有臨床的兒童醫療健康研究中心，類似這樣子，我覺得應該要有一些進度，而不是每次都跟我講還要再跟他們討論或者是還要再研究。"],["邱部長泰源：兒童研究中心，劉越萍司長剛好出自那裡。"],["劉司長越萍：我補充一下，跟委員報告一下進度，大概在3月左右，我自己就帶同仁到臺大兒童醫院去瞭解他們的需求，如果只有臨床研究的部分，需要參與的單位就變成國科會也要一起進來支持，那他們跟我說他們想做的是健康，以健康來講的話，我就說如果臺大兒童醫院沒有找公共衛生相關的學者，在這一塊上面就沒有我們現在講的研究議題的廣度，所以經過討論之後，臺大醫院說它短期的這個計畫原本是由教育部提供的，可能要再做延長，所以他們現在正在進行內部的程序，因為光是從原來只有臨床要擴展到健康的時候，要去協作的單位變多了。那是3月的時候的事情，我們現在是在等臺大兒童醫院他們有一個內部的共識之後，需要再做協作的時候，我們跟他們其實有保持良好的聯繫管道，以上。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望能夠有一些進度，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，一定會有進度。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請林淑芬委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"161996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24e89a8af3ca2473981b5ee1b3bf308d2e87f2bf784d93fc30bb574d15a1fc2d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:16:18 - 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第一個問題請教你就是說我們福島五縣市的食品包括農產品包括水產品都已經解禁 是去年解禁那他們農漁產品特別是福島五縣市進口到台灣目前的狀況如何我們有沒有還有相關的管制"},{"start":41.096,"end":55.863,"text":"現在是等於說符合我們的相關規定都可以但實際的數量我現在沒有 手邊沒有資訊我會後再提供給委員輔導五縣市的部分對 已經解禁了就應該沒有任何的縣市讓他們輔導五縣市代表說安全無與沒有問題"},{"start":57.123,"end":75.549,"text":"那過去中國是這個日本漁產品最大的出口國是那台灣在這個所謂五島五線式這個食品管制之前日本這個漁產品這個出口到台灣的狀況怎麼樣我真的是不是可以請那個副助長日本"},{"start":77.199,"end":101.053,"text":"沒有 包 包 包委員這邊沒有把數字寄出沒關係 會後再提供給我那當然我們的魚產品也有日本需要這個比較喜歡的品項比如說 我說的石斑魚他們都接受 接受度蠻高那我們可以這個雙向來做更多的這個漁業 農業的合作我最近去拜訪日本國會跟幾個日本國會議員討論這個"},{"start":103.855,"end":122.356,"text":"我去主要是針對台灣的CPTPP要請日本多加支持因為今年澳洲當了日主席國這是一個非常最重要關鍵的時刻那這個日本扮演非常重要的角色日本全力支持不然其他的國家"},{"start":123.527,"end":150.032,"text":"大概也不敢太多的發言對我們會有幫助啦對如果他全力支持有全力支持跟這個意識性支持完全不一樣那當然他們是全力支持但是他們還是有一些抱怨就是說當初無線式這個食品管制台灣跟日本那麼友好但是我們卻對他們這個無線式食品管制我說那是因為公投"},{"start":151.132,"end":173.27,"text":"因為有公投所以必須要有這個限制那我們也希望說基於相信科學相信科學所以我這部分先事後了解說從去年檢驗之後服務到我現在這個農漁產品輸入台灣目前的狀況怎麼樣我們會來統計然後再提供給委員有沒有可能加強採購呢是有沒有可能加強採購我想我們現在"},{"start":177.092,"end":204.623,"text":"只要不影響到我們國內的農業生產就這樣石斑就好石斑其實有太多的日本通路商開始在洽群希望說能夠增加這個採購然後今年七月中旬大阪的這些食品展我想我們農業部也會組團再去針對重要的農產品做一個行銷雙邊是互惠的如果我們也跟他們多一點進口買一些然後他們也幫我們買一些他們對我們這個石斑他們也可以更多接受度"},{"start":205.703,"end":224.833,"text":"好今天討論這個主題很重要那三保一金當然是對農民最最重要的照顧那我覺得照顧還是不夠那如果按照這個郭國文委員的版本就是從1倍到1.5倍整體預算評估大概增加"},{"start":229.921,"end":242.285,"text":"15.5億你是用9萬人口還是用20萬人口因為你現在覆蓋率是49%嘛對不對你的覆蓋率49%那你這個他自己提撥是1%到10%對不對那你這個15.5億是怎麼計算出來的我們15.5億是依現在的人數去儲穀因為"},{"start":251.947,"end":275.597,"text":"當你提高的時候是已經在提腳的你現在的出鍋是用49%對不對大概9萬多人口嘛那你如果符合資格應該是20萬左右嘛對22萬左右那你增加這個政府的這個提撥當然會增加誘因嘛所以人數一定會增加嘛我覺得是這樣15.5億啊甚至你到20億"},{"start":277.863,"end":305.402,"text":"30億是對農民的照顧那你我覺得沒有必要再去跟其他的職業族群去做比較你用這個勞保跟這個農保我們農民領取老黃金貼加農退儲金的金額跟這個勞工領取勞保老年給付跟勞工退休金的金額我覺得比較基礎不一樣你這個農民領取老黃金貼加農退儲金大概多少人"},{"start":308.164,"end":330.74,"text":"農民 農保是現在現在農保是85.3萬人但是65歲以下的是31.7萬人你有資格到最後領取可以領取大概實際上他農保就完全合格的22.3萬人不是 你最後呢可以領到農退儲金的最多就20萬22.3萬人 對所以並不是所有農民都可以領到這個這個每個月3萬8這種金額對不對是"},{"start":336.812,"end":355.494,"text":"是少數大概不到四分之一實際從容的部分那勞工大部分都會領到三萬三左右所以你不能用這個比較的基礎說你如果提高到這個1.5倍所以這個倍數一定要提高至於說底倍1倍1.2"},{"start":359.418,"end":370.389,"text":"1.5 1.7 兩倍我們都可以去討論那我覺得以你1.5倍作為基礎來看這個金額是增加不多那對農民的這個覆蓋率或者他的意願會增加"},{"start":371.969,"end":393.39,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 我要先說明一下就是我們並沒有反對這樣的委員的提案那我們會做這樣的分析就是說我們要去向行政院申請經費的時候這個分析會有誤導啦並不是所有農民都可以同時領到勞農基金或農退儲金嘛大概只佔四分之一左右但是大部分勞工是可以領取他勞退基金跟勞農給付嘛我說的沒有錯吧"},{"start":395.852,"end":410.431,"text":"你說你這樣會有點誤導說如果增加到1.5倍那可能跟勞工的差距會變得更大我還是強調一下我們做這樣的分析就是說我們要先找到一些差異性未來當做"},{"start":412.393,"end":433.17,"text":"跟行政院在做爭取的時候的一個論述所以因為行政院考量的一定是我剛才的論述是可以提供你去跟行政院爭取而且這金額才15.5億金額是不多以重大建設來講你也承認說不多再多的照顧都是應該的因為農民是相對弱勢他們老年之後"},{"start":434.615,"end":451.186,"text":"這生活的這個保障很重要對 影響衛生保障當然越多越好你說你覆蓋力還不到五成 對不對你1.5倍 基本上增加你所謂的15.5億但一定會提高覆蓋率嘛是好 不然你要40 到 比方說到23萬滿額的話 全部都有覆蓋的話"},{"start":456.349,"end":484.76,"text":"真的能夠兩筆都可以提都可以領到也大概只有三分之一左右我跟委員報告我們除了委員的版本以外我們會去做好好的規劃然後再加上我剛才提到的就是說怎麼樣減輕農民負擔在同樣的進而之下農民提繳的可以少繳一點政府再多繳一點保障一樣然後另外一個更重要就是還沒有加入的我們想辦法有困難的地方我們怎麼樣讓他加入這整個方案我們會做一個包裹來跟行政院報告"},{"start":485.95,"end":507.604,"text":"另外我第三個問題請教老榮今天的調整老榮今天調整的依據跟頻率當然相對於其他職業別比方說軍工教育月退跟勞保年金等等我們目前是四年調整一次對不對根據CPI 前一年的CPI"},{"start":510.706,"end":536.205,"text":"但是為什麼不能比照比較優惠的這個軍工教育月退你CPI增長率達正負5%的時候調整或至少每四年檢討一次這個問題是不是可以往這個方向去思考呢我跟委員報告我們農業部的版本已經提到農業行政院去了包括CPI現在每四年調整一次的時候如果這四年中你的CPI超過一定比例的時候也可以啟動調整這是我們的"},{"start":537.706,"end":560.414,"text":"那另外排富的部分我們也將所謂的所得的部分從50萬也適度的提高他的財產從500萬有沒有也適度的提高還有自住所得房屋的部分也提高這個部分我想我們委員都有非常多的多的一些建議太過消極太過保守這個照顧也不夠你看從101年到114年這15年間從7000塊到8110塊對不對是"},{"start":565.936,"end":580.625,"text":"但你這個整體最低生活費是暴增了幾倍 暴增了1.5倍你從台灣省來看 台灣省五都之外從1萬塊到1萬5 增加1.5倍那你從7000塊搭8000塊是增加幾倍 很有限"},{"start":586.776,"end":605.138,"text":"所以你要應該以這樣做比較在你的方案上面能夠更好提出更好的方式來照顧老農老農今天能夠有更多的對老農有更多的照顧這個八千塊我覺得這十年才剩下一千多塊"},{"start":607.5,"end":630.645,"text":"這個對農民是沒有辦法交代我想委內意見我們也會再把它做一些納入我們現在已經針對CPI的調整時間包括排富的部分我們已經做了一些建議了那至於說他的那個調整跟他的生活所得的比例也要盡量要一致化這個部分我想我們也可以把它納入另外住宿代表處有沒有農業組的編制我們有 已經成立了農業組"},{"start":631.605,"end":659.61,"text":"去跟國會做一些說明他們很在乎啊我只要說提到CPTPP說我們支持但是你們之前這個福島五縣市時評他們覺得有點難過他們有點難過畢竟已經過去了你要把整個原委說明清楚我想我們把這個部分重新整理以後再去跟日本的國會透過農業組去做一個說明對 去做一個說明好 謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":662.394,"end":663.517,"text":"现在请郭国文"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時16分）謝謝主席，請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長辛苦了！部長，請教你第一個問題，就是福島五縣市包括農產品、水產品等食品都已經解禁，是去年解禁嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：目前福島五縣市的農漁產品進口到臺灣的狀況如何？我們是不是還有相關的管制？"],["陳部長駿季：現在等於是符合我們的相關規定都可以，但是實際的數量我現在手邊沒有資訊，我們會後再將福島五縣市的部分提供給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：對，已經解禁了，就應該沒有任何的限制，代表說福島五縣市的產品是安全無虞、沒有問題的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是安全的。"],["邱委員志偉：過去中國是日本漁產品最大的出口國嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：在臺灣做所謂的福島五縣市食品管制之前，日本漁產品出口到臺灣的狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以請副署長說明？"],["陳副署長建佑：報告委員，這邊沒有把數字帶出來……"],["邱委員志偉：沒關係，會後再提供給我。"],["陳副署長建佑：是。"],["邱委員志偉：當然我們的漁產品也有日本比較喜歡的品項，譬如說石斑魚，他們的接受度是蠻高的，那我們可以雙向來做更多漁業、農業的合作。我最近去拜訪了日本國會，有跟幾個日本國會議員討論，我這次去主要是針對臺灣加入CPTPP要請日本多加支持，因為今年澳洲當了主席國，這是一個最重要的關鍵時刻，日本扮演非常重要的角色，如果日本全力支持，那其他國家大概也不敢有太多的發言。"],["陳部長駿季：對我們會有幫助。"],["邱委員志偉：對，如果日本全力支持，因為全力支持跟意思性支持完全不一樣，那當然他們是全力支持，但是他們還是有一些抱怨，就是當初對福島五縣市食品的管制，因為臺灣跟日本那麼友好，但是我們卻對他們五縣市的食品管制。我說那是因為公投，就是因為有公投，所以必須要做限制，我們也是基於相信科學。我對這個部分希望在事後了解，從去年解禁之後，目前福島五縣市的農漁產品輸入臺灣的狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來統計，然後再提供給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有可能加強採購？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們現在包括……"],["邱委員志偉：只要不影響到我們國內的農漁業生產……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這幾年來其實像石斑魚有太多的日本通路商開始在洽詢，希望能夠增加採購，然後在今年7月中旬的大阪食品展，我想我們農業部也會組團針對重要的農產品做一些行銷。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，雙邊是互惠的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果我們也跟他們進口多一點……"],["陳部長駿季：跟他們買一些，然後他們也幫我們買一些。"],["邱委員志偉：對，對我們的石斑魚他們也可以有更高的接受度。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，今天討論的這個主題很重要，三保一金當然是對農民最重要的照顧，我覺得現在的照顧還是不夠，如果按照郭國文委員的版本，就是從1倍到1.5倍，整體預算評估大概增加……"],["陳部長駿季：15.5億。"],["邱委員志偉：你說15.5億，你是用9萬人口還是用20萬人口，因為你現在的覆蓋率是49%，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你的覆蓋率是49%，那他自己提撥是1%到10%，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那你這個15.5億是怎麼計算出來的？"],["陳部長駿季：我們15.5億是依現在的人數去粗估，因為當你提高的時候，是已經在提繳的……"],["邱委員志偉：你現在的粗估是用49%對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：大概九萬多人口。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果是符合資格的，應該是20萬左右嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：22萬左右。"],["邱委員志偉：那你增加政府的提撥，當然就會增加誘因，所以人數一定會增加嘛！我覺得是這樣，你們是估15.5億，甚至到20億、30億，這是對農民的照顧，我覺得沒有必要再去跟其他的職業族群去做比較。你用勞保跟農保，農民領取老農津貼加農退儲金的金額，跟勞工領取勞保老年給付跟勞工退休金的金額，我覺得比較基礎不一樣。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：農民領取老農津貼加農退儲金的大概有多少人？"],["陳部長駿季：現在農保是85.3萬人，但是65歲以下的是31.7萬人。"],["邱委員志偉：那有資格到最後領取農退……"],["陳部長駿季：實際上，農保完全合格的是22.3萬人。"],["邱委員志偉：最後可以領到農退儲金的最多就是……"],["陳部長駿季：22.3萬人。"],["邱委員志偉：所以並不是所有農民都可以領到每個月3萬8,000元的這種金額，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：只是少數，大概不到四分之一，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是實際從農的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：那勞工大部分都可以領到3萬3,000元左右，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你不能用這個當作比較的基礎，這個倍數一定要提高，至於說要幾倍，是1.2倍、1.5倍、1.7倍或2倍，我們都可以去討論。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那我覺得以1.5倍作為基礎來看，這個金額是增加不多，但是對農民的覆蓋率或者他的意願會增加啊！"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我要先說明一下，就是我們並沒有反對委員這樣的提案，那我們會做這樣的分析，就是我們要去向行政院申請經費的時候……"],["邱委員志偉：這個分析會有誤導，並不是所有的農民都可以同時領到老農津貼跟農退儲金，大概只占四分之一左右，但是大部分的勞工是可以領取勞退金跟老年給付，對不對？我說的沒有錯吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你這樣會有一點誤導，就是如果增加到1.5倍，可能跟勞工的差距會變得更大，這個會誤導視聽。"],["陳部長駿季：我還是強調一下，我們做這樣的分析，就是我們要先找到一些差異性，在未來跟行政院爭取的時候可以當作一個論述，因為行政院考量的一定是……"],["邱委員志偉：我剛才的論述是可以提供你去跟行政院爭取，而且這個金額才15.5億。"],["陳部長駿季：以重大建設來講，金額是不多啦！"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！你也承認是不多，我認為再多的照顧都是應該的，因為農民是相對弱勢，他們老年之後的生活保障很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：對，以農業部來講，當然是越多越好，這是我們的想法。"],["邱委員志偉：你說你覆蓋率還不到五成，如果是1.5倍，基本上增加你所說的15.5億，但是一定會提高覆蓋率嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：不然比方說到23萬滿額的話，全部都有覆蓋的話，甚至兩筆都可以領到的也大概只有三分之一左右。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，除了委員的版本以外，我們會好好的去做規劃，然後再加上我剛才提到的，就是怎麼樣減輕農民的負擔，在同樣的金額之下，農民提繳的可以少繳一點，政府再多繳一點，保障一樣。然後另外一個更重要的就是對於還沒有加入的人我們來想辦法，有困難的地方，我們看怎麼樣讓他加入，對這整個方案我們會做一個包裹來跟行政院報告。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我要請教的第三個問題是老農津貼的調整，我們調整的依據跟頻率相對於其他職業別，譬如說軍公教的月退跟勞保年金等等，我們目前是4年調整一次對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，根據CPI每4年調整一次。"],["邱委員志偉：是根據前一年的CPI對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但是為什麼不能比照比較優惠的軍公教月退？在CPI增長率達正負5%的時候調整，或者至少每4年檢討一次？是不是可以往這個方向思考呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農業部的版本已經提到行政院去了，包括每4年隨CPI調整一次，在這4年中CPI增長超過一定比例的時候也可以啟動調整，這是我們的版本。另外，在排富部分，我們將所得門檻從50萬元適度提高、財產從500萬元適度提高，還有自住房屋部分也提高，就這個部分，委員都有非常多建議……"],["邱委員志偉：如果調整太過消極、太過保守，照顧也不夠。你看，從101年到114年，這15年間從7,000塊提高到8,110塊對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但整體最低生活費暴增了幾倍？暴增了1.5倍欸！從臺灣省來看，五都之外從1萬塊到1萬5,000，增加了1.5倍，那從7,000塊到8,000塊是增加幾倍？很有限，你應該這樣比較，在你的方案裡提出更好的方式照顧老農，透過老農津貼對老農做到更多照顧。就這八千塊而言，10年來才增加一千多塊，我覺得對農民沒有辦法交代。"],["陳部長駿季：委員的意見我們也會再納入，我們現在已經針對CPI的調整時間、排富部分做了一些建議，調整跟生活所得的比例也要儘量一致化啦！這部分我想也可以納入。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，駐日代表處有沒有農業組的編制？"],["陳部長駿季：有，我們已經成立了農業組。"],["邱委員志偉：你們要去跟國會做一些說明，他們很在乎啊！我只要提到CPTPP，他們就會說「我們支持」，但是你們之前對福島五縣市食品設限，讓他們有點難過，雖然已經過去了，但是你要把整個原委說明清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們把這部分重新整理以後會再透過農業組向日本國會說明。"],["邱委員志偉：對，去做說明。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請郭國文委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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一個是61歲以上他們的信貸破了60歲以下有很大的一個數據讓我們很害怕就是說每一個人借到50萬 50萬這個人數一直都在創高"},{"start":254.418,"end":263.043,"text":"甚至就是說60歲以上成長了146%30歲以下成長了124%這個平均的利率我們看到了從30歲以下當然他的利息那個利率一定是比較高他借到8.3%"},{"start":275.569,"end":298.537,"text":"借到8.3 這男生喔 女生的話是8.9那60歲以上的話是5.3跟5.4甚至我們Google進去就是說 你要借貸 那你要投資他很明顯就告訴你說 你要去買ETF因為這個有固定的 你可以領固定的配息"},{"start":299.677,"end":321.977,"text":"那61歲以上當然我們知道就是說他可能銀行會跟你講啊你有一筆那個退休的一個基金你可以來做什麼樣什麼樣的一個投資可是30歲以下這些大學生這些年輕人甚至剛進入社會他們面臨到的一個就是觀念投資觀念的一個不正確你看負債比這麼大"},{"start":324.139,"end":346.055,"text":"那我們怎麼來講說這個新型債務年輕化的這一個問題呢甚至我們看到了一個非常聳動就是說學生貸你只要有一支手機那普惠幫你完成你的夢想你靠你那支手機你可以借到了一個額度最高15萬那每個月的利息最低是255塊這看起來又好申請"},{"start":349.577,"end":362.138,"text":"然後審核又快然後在很快就一個小時就換款了這普惠就是快然後又有隱私那你怎麼看就是新型債務的年輕化呢 主委"},{"start":362.947,"end":379.841,"text":"我想這個部分剛剛委員那個資料已經非常非常充分的這樣看出各個年齡層那比如說剛剛各個年齡層現在年輕人呢確實是他在舉在上面看起來是比較積極我想這個相關的內容我可以請童局長給你簡單做個分析"},{"start":382.303,"end":398.229,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題那的確我們在過去其實就已經有要求銀行在貸放的部分不管是哪一個年輕族群也好或者是高齡族群我們都有DBR22倍的這個限制也就是他必須要去衡量到他的收入才可以去做對等的消費性貸款"},{"start":399.309,"end":420.187,"text":"那另外一個部分就是說委員這個投影片所出示的應該就是委員所關心的有類似所謂的這種貸款的這個中介公司那這個部分上一次有跟委員報告銀行是絕對不能夠有代辦進建的案件之外我們會在那你有沒有感受到有一個類金融有更大的一個"},{"start":421.408,"end":430.671,"text":"新型的一個債務風暴其實它正在成形啊你感受得到嗎我們從這麼多的一個數據我列出這麼多的數據給你看你有沒有感受到"},{"start":431.893,"end":452.72,"text":"跟委員報告您提示的這部分我們會加強注意但是在銀行體系的部分銷金的信用的如果撇開銀行的部分我們不要來談其實我今天要跟你們談的就是一個新型的一個債務它不管是年輕化還是一個龐大的債務其實它正在成型主委我想2005年的卡債風暴"},{"start":455.741,"end":482.892,"text":"這個是把我們這整整體的一個社會進入一個非常恐慌的時期甚至就是說我們提到了一個案例就是說在那幾年有很多人就是虛家殆盡的去那個躲債了跑掉了甚至就是說在台北市還有一戶只因為欠了300多萬的卡債那六個人有五個人陸續在松山的陳美橋跳河自殺這個造成社會很大的一個震撼那"},{"start":484.292,"end":510.043,"text":"要跟你探討的就是說你的債務協商你的申請那個消費者債務清理條例然後就在2008他成立了可是我們有沒有去追蹤後續後續我們這些成功率呢我們看不到那看不到的時候這個消債條例在上任之初好像顯然是很多人受惠了很多人解決他的債務問題可是後面呢後面這一些問題怎麼辦呢"},{"start":511.935,"end":533.659,"text":"我想剛剛委員提的那個2005年那個雙卡風暴當那時候引發很多比如說幾乎只要很多學生就會辦卡辦現金卡辦卡我想在剛剛同學講提到了後來其實整個營養體系痛定思痛針對整個比如說KYC還有這些封控的部分已經有大幅的改善"},{"start":534.6,"end":548.479,"text":"剛剛提到這部分的話當然隨著這些另外一種環境的變更很有可能假設有這些未來有些潛在的威脅我也會請我們銀行局這邊針對銀行體系的部分我們也好好來監控這個情況"},{"start":549.881,"end":565.68,"text":"其實你上任到現在你算是一個非常那個願意做事也是非常有創意性的一個主委如果我們給弱勢的這個經濟弱勢的年輕人多一點不悲哉的一個機會有沒有可能當然有可能"},{"start":566.161,"end":590.939,"text":"我們引用很多就是說我們抓到了很多就是這個數據裡頭他告訴我們說如果從學校到社會前面去推動金融的一個試讀這個其實在我們那個金融院裡頭2023年的報告他有特別講到了他說他們去調查有60%以上的大學生其實他們沒有辦法真正的去理解信用卡的循環利息"},{"start":591.539,"end":610.767,"text":"所以就是因為在這個姿勢這麼淺薄的然後他沒有辦法去了解到說他負債的這個嚴重性所以他掉進來了那甚至在國外比照美國的ESA的一個制度他就是由政府跟僱主共同去建立一個不可提領"},{"start":612.088,"end":640.97,"text":"不可提領的一個除夕帳戶那專門用在這個醫療還是失業還是災難你看喔有很多人是因為就是醫療就是他生病了他沒有錢還是他的人生就做了一個很大的一個降低下來那是不是有辦法就是說我們去建立這樣子的一個那個推動這樣子的一個那個設計然後提升年輕人就是他在財務上的一個脆弱性啊有沒有機會"},{"start":642.05,"end":659.645,"text":"我想其實我們在我上任以後我也跟銀行局講普惠金融很重要的是要照顧到各個年齡層尤其現在我們的青年他在金融服務上面相對是弱勢所以這部分我們要怎麼樣提升剛剛提到剛剛委員有"},{"start":660.606,"end":680.28,"text":"有幾個想法我以前都還不知道所以我想說這部分我會是不是回去研究看看當然當然當然這個東西我們來看看是不是真的是比如說我們金融市場能著力還就是比如說我們針對金融機構因為至少金融機構是在我們很明確的管理之下我們鼓勵他們我們也是希望他們多多提供"},{"start":681.861,"end":701.162,"text":"針對青年朋友們的金融商品符合他們的商品那這部分呢也是我們正在請銀行這邊來加強推動的部分所以說主委我們給年輕人一個不背債的一個重新的一個機會所以本席在這裡要求金管會在6月30號以前以書面回覆以下研議的一個事項"},{"start":701.903,"end":726.061,"text":"就是你去檢討這個消債法的條例裡頭施行的一個成效跟改善的一個策略並且研擬就是建立一個申請消債或是債務協商者的一個追蹤跟輔導的一個機制那我們要加強資訊的一個揭露那研擬加強提升金融理財的一個教育這個理財教育相當相當的重要還有風險的一個模擬"},{"start":727.542,"end":743.648,"text":"這個疫警的一個機制我們希望提升年輕世代的一個財務韌性的一個方案那第三點對於金融消費者的一個保護尤其是對於金融創新的業務嚴妮是不是可以比照英美等國家轉向是"},{"start":744.708,"end":759.443,"text":"行為的監理這個行為的監理非常的一個重要不要我們都是只靠金融機構其實還有就是類金融的行為我們就是納管以免漏接掉消費者"},{"start":761.584,"end":778.014,"text":"主委 那個本席對你這樣子的一個要求那請就是把書面那個回覆給本席是 沒問題特別是剛剛委員提到第三個就是我們剛剛有委員提到金融消費者保護法納管那個就是針對行為管理就是這個方向好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":648,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時9分）謝謝主席，有請金管會主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主委早安。上個禮拜我們質詢有關代辦的詐騙問題，今天本席想跟你探討的是消費者貸款，消費者貸款突破了13兆，我們從央行的資料裡面看到，從2015年7.45兆，到今年3月已經突破了13兆，這就表示國人的消費貸款金額很明顯地一直在改變，國人會不會已經進入一個大負債時代？事實上、基本上是肯定的。我們又從央行和主計總處的資料裡頭看到，2015年總貸款額度是7.45兆，當時的GDP是17兆，7.45兆占GDP的44%，可是到了2024年的總貸款金額是12.92兆，GDP是25.55兆，占了51%，其實我們都看到了數字的跳動，主委，你認為消費者貸款越來越高是好事還是壞事？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果是從這個數字來看，我們看到數字是往上升，但是消費者貸款要看這些消費者的分布，以及貸款的型態是什麼，有可能是信用卡或是其他的方式，比如多元支付所產生的，都有可能，另外就是房貸，不同的屬性有不一樣的風險屬性。"],["賴委員惠員：從這個圓餅圖來看，信用卡循環信用餘額其實才占1%，房貸占86%，房屋修繕貸款是零，汽車貸款是2%，林林總總，還有個人消費性貸款占了11%，可以看到房貸占了非常重要的比例。信貸、卡循年變化率也增加，從我們抓出來的資料可以看到都明顯地上升，尤其是在疫情這段時間，這段時間當然會上升，可是2025年基本上沒有特別的狀況，但是2024、2025年我們都明顯看到信用貸款上升，主委，你認為是什麼原因造成的呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實委員從剛剛的圓餅圖就可以看得出來，其中大部分都是房貸，十一點多兆是自用住宅的部分，看起來有兩大塊── 一個是信用卡的部分，一個就是房貸的部分。我想大家都知道，最近幾年房地產非常的景氣，所以購屋的人也很多，移轉棟數也很多，貸款也在增加，所以去年大家很關心的就是第七十二條之二的水位是不是過高，還有央行也出來做了信用管制，我想都是因為很多因素總結起來的。"],["賴委員惠員：再接著跟主委探討一下信貸的部分，剛好有兩大族群，一個是30歲以下，一個是61歲以上，60歲以下有一個很大的數據讓我們很害怕，每個人平均信貸金額達50萬，而且人數一直在創高，60歲以上成長了146%，30歲以下成長了124%。30歲以下的利率一定會比較高，男生的平均利率是8.3%，女生是8.9%；60歲以上是5.3%及5.4%，甚至我們在Google鍵入借貸、投資，它很明顯就告訴你，你要去買ETF，因為可以領取固定配息。對於61歲以上有一筆退休基金的族群，銀行可能會跟你講，你可以做什麼樣、什麼樣的投資，可是30歲以下的這些大學生、這些年輕人，甚至才剛進入社會，他們面臨到的是投資觀念的不正確，才會導致負債比這麼大，我們怎麼來解決新型債務年輕化的問題？甚至我們還看到了一個非常聳動的學生貸，只要有一支手機，普匯幫你完成你的夢想，靠一支手機你可以借到額度最高15萬，每個月利息最低255元，看起來又好申請、審核又快，1個小時就放款了，普匯就是快，又有隱私，主委，你怎麼看新型債務年輕化呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分剛才委員的資料已經非常非常充分的看出各個年齡層，比如在各個年齡層中，現在年輕人確實是舉債上面看起來是比較積極的，相關的內容我可以請童局長跟你簡單做個分析。"],["賴委員惠員：好，童局長。"],["童局長政彰：謝謝委員關心這個議題，的確，我們過去其實就已經有要求銀行在貸放的部分，不管是針對哪一個族群，年輕族群也好或是高齡族群也好，我們都有DBR22倍的限制，也就是必須要衡量他的收入，才可以做對等的消費性貸款。另外一個部分，委員這個投影片所出示的，應該也就是委員所關心的，有類似這種所謂的貸款仲介公司，這個部分上一次有跟委員報告過，銀行是絕對不能夠有代辦進件的案件之外，我們會再……"],["賴委員惠員：局長，你有沒有感受到有類金融或更大的新型債務風暴正在成形，你感受得到嗎？從這麼多的數據中，我列出這麼多的數據給你看，你有沒有感受到？"],["童局長政彰：跟委員報告，你提示的這部分我們會加強注意，但是在銀行體系的部分，消金信用的管控……"],["賴委員惠員：如果撇開銀行的部分，我們不要談，其實我今天要跟你們談的就是新型債務，不管是年輕化或是一個龐大的債務，其實都正在成形。主委，2005年的卡債風暴把我們整體社會帶入一個非常恐慌的時期，甚至看到了很多案例，在那幾年有很多人攜家帶眷去躲債，跑掉了，在臺北市還有一戶只因為欠了三百多萬的卡債，6個人有5個人陸續在松山的成美橋跳河自殺，造成社會很大的震撼。我要跟你探討的是債務協商，消費者債務清理條例在2008年成立，可是我們有沒有去追蹤後續成效，這些成功的例子我們看不到，消債條例在上路之初好像顯然是很多人受惠了，解決了很多人的債務問題，可是後面呢？後面這一些問題怎麼辦呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛才委員提到2005年的雙卡風暴，那時候引發很多問題，當時很多學生會辦卡、辦現金卡，剛才童局長也提到後來整個銀行體系痛定思痛，針對KYC以及風控部分已經有大幅改善。剛剛提到這部分，當然隨著另外一種環境的變更，假設未來有這些潛在的威脅，我也會請銀行局針對銀行體系的部分好好的來監控這個情況。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，其實你上任到現在，你算是一個非常願意做事，也非常有創意性的主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們給經濟弱勢的年輕人多一點不背債的機會，有沒有可能？當然有可能。我們引用及找到很多的數據，它告訴我們如果從學校到社會全面去推動金融識讀，其實在金融院2023年的報告有特別講到，他們調查有60%以上的大學生沒有辦法真正理解信用卡的循環利息，就是因為知識這麼淺薄，他們沒有辦法了解到負債的嚴重性，所以掉進來了。甚至在國外，比照美國ESA的制度，由政府跟雇主共同去建立「不可提領儲蓄帳戶」，專門用在醫療、失業及災難上，你看有很多人就是因為醫療，當他生病了、他沒有錢，還是他的人生做了一個很大的變化、降低下來，那是不是有辦法去推動這樣的設計，提升年輕人在財務上的脆弱性，有沒有機會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我上任以後，我也跟銀行局講，普惠金融很重要的是要照顧到各個年齡層，尤其現在我們的青年在金融服務上面相對是弱勢，所以這部分我們要怎麼樣提升，剛剛委員有提到幾個想法，我以前都還不知道，我想這部分我會……"],["賴委員惠員：是不是回去研究看看？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然。這個東西我們來看看，比如說，是不是金融市場能著力，還有我們針對金融機構，至少金融機構是在我們很明確地管理之下，我們鼓勵也希望他們多多提供符合青年朋友們的金融商品，這部分也是我們正在請銀行加強推動的部分。"],["賴委員惠員：所以主委，我們給年輕人一個不背債的機會，本席在這裡要求金管會在6月30號以前以書面回復一下研議事項。第一，檢討消債條例施行成效跟改善策略，並且研擬建立聲請消債或是債務協商者的追蹤跟輔導機制，我們要加強資訊的揭露。第二，研擬加強提升金融理財教育，這個理財教育相當相當地重要，還有風險模擬、評估暨預警機制，我們希望提升年輕世代財務韌性方案。第三點，對於金融消費者的保護，尤其是對於金融創新的業務，研擬是不是可以比照英、美等國家轉向行為監理，這個行為監理非常非常重要，不要都只靠金融機構，其實還有類金融行為都要納管，以免漏接消費者。主委，本席對你這樣的要求，請把書面回復給本席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題。特別是剛剛委員提到的第三個，剛剛也有委員提到的金融消費者保護法納管，就是針對行為管理，就是這個方向，好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：謝謝羅明才委員。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-14","speakers":["賴惠員","沈發惠","林楚茵","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","鍾佳濱","林思銘","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","陳玉珍","李彥秀","王世堅","黃珊珊","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：(一)本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具\n「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等 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了解 那我也想再請問一下就是說到底現在這個學生我們台大有沒有提供給他這些相關的心理輔導的資源呢"},{"start":223.171,"end":249.611,"text":"因為根據性平法我們應該是要提供的這個學生基本上是長期受到那個輔導中心在協助的對象因為他本身就有一些所以在這次的事件之後我想我們是有在多給嗎還有在多給是不是是有在多給一些支持是的持續上在他們的輔導心理師都有在持續提供心理智商的服務"},{"start":250.27,"end":268.255,"text":"OK 好 那我也想要了解就是說因為在這一次我們可以看見就是說整個教育部我認為是性平意識不足所以我想請教我們現在到底對我們不理人員有沒有進行一個常態的性平的教育訓練呢"},{"start":271.138,"end":280.47,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒確實我們在這個整個案件裡邊我們也在深切的檢討我們整個行政的一個過程裡邊到底"},{"start":282.793,"end":304.309,"text":"的疏漏在哪裡也希望能夠導正能夠強化這個整個機制希望這個事件不會再發生我想這是屬於我們內部那當然包含性平的一個意思或者課程或者我們教育部過去是一個主要的主管機關但是我們如果同仁在這個部分是不足的我們怎麼樣去增能我想這個確實是我們要努力的"},{"start":308.112,"end":323.144,"text":"好 我想 我剛剛的問題就是說在現在我們到底有沒有定期做這件事情在教育部裡面因為我們會有要求學校老師要定期的去回去嘛那我們自己到底對部裡的人員有沒有做這些要求呢有 我們人事單位每年都固定辦理這個"},{"start":324.245,"end":345.117,"text":"員工的培訓 尤其在最近的這個性評法 性攻法 性殺法修正之後 有很多新的規定以及當中的一個法的差異其實做了蠻多詳細的說明而且邀請的講師都是我們性評會裡頭非常有經驗的學術專家那我們有沒有一些相關的評估機制呢 看這個成效呢應該 我們都有填那個回饋的問卷"},{"start":349.332,"end":369.971,"text":"好那我們看一下回饋的問卷好不好提供給我一下回饋問卷還有這個結果好不好再來大概一個禮拜一之內應該可以提供吧好我們請我們的人事處來協助謝謝好那我想問因為剛剛是講說我們定期有做這件事情嗎但是這件事情就顯示是不足的應該要再增能對不對所以這個增能的部分我們有相關的計畫"},{"start":371.769,"end":373.37,"text":"我們會整體來看我們要怎麼樣哪一個地方是疏漏我們就先從那一個地方來補強"},{"start":403.13,"end":425.013,"text":"有 有 確定有有嗎 好喔那我想問一下 那目前就是因為承辦有洩漏個資的這個問題嘛那我們現在看到承辦好像現在已經有被懲處嘛 對不對但是我想問一下 那請問一下司長 學特司司長吳林輝是否也應該對這件事情負起一些監督不足的責任呢因為好像我現在沒有看到您的部分這樣子"},{"start":425.533,"end":445.453,"text":"跟委員報告事實上吳市長他也自行處分也有處分是不是好喔那我想因為其實學特斯最重要啦因為他就是姓平事件最重要的教育管理機關可是這次的事件我覺得會打擊我們基層很大的信心所以我們必須要採取更積極的作為好那接下來還有就是說"},{"start":447.524,"end":461.952,"text":"我認為因為這一次的個資保護的洩漏事件除了我們懲處之外我們在目前應該要再加強我們個資保護的制度是不是有更嚴謹的一個資料管理流程或者是加強的資安保護個資保護的一個訓練好這個部分是"},{"start":465.054,"end":493.136,"text":"我的第二個訴求那第三個部分呢我覺得在這次的事件上面我覺得教育部也應該要這樣建立相對應的一個問責機制來確保未來我們可以更謹慎的來處理性平與各自的相關事務那關於這三點我們是否可以提出相關的精進計畫或檢討報告因為我認為不是只有對立法委員要交代清楚最重要是我們要對社會而且我們也要讓學生很清楚的知道我們是如何的應對這件事情"},{"start":495.037,"end":513.646,"text":"讓未來這樣子的事情不要再發生這個部分部長可以承諾我嗎謝謝委員提醒確實我們也因為針對這一個案這個事件我們內部已經在內控內機的這一個部分做了一些調整流程過去可能當事人本應這個分層負責他就直接回應這一個等於說那一個頭人陳情人"},{"start":518.849,"end":541.996,"text":"那我們現在就是說他的程序裡面加一個就是科長他一定要整個看過檢視然後這個我們才可以出去譬如說我們加強了這個內控內積的這樣的一個程序希望能夠遵循我們性平法所有的規定而不要讓所有的關心這個性平工作或者直接的特別在這個受傷害的人這個"},{"start":543.656,"end":564.276,"text":"第二次再受傷害這次的再受傷害所以是相關的檢討報告還有剛剛有提到就是說我們在各自的保護上面多加一個層級那這些是不是也都可以提供給大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢大概什麼時候我想我們會後就提供檢討報告嗎我是說全部的整個機制的檢討報告會後就可以提供"},{"start":564.93,"end":592.123,"text":"因為先前已經有內部做一個檢討而且也強化了相關人員的培訓好 那就是這個會後提供給我那我最後一件事情我想請教於台大這件事情其實我們一直不停的要關心最關鍵的問題其實還是在台大那我知道部長其實也都已經發了公文一直不停的在跟台大做溝通但是顯然台大還是認為他的處置沒有問題那接下來我們到底該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":597.236,"end":616.374,"text":"各位報告我們性評會已經成立了一個專案的小組會協助我們從監察院的糾正文從這個法院的起訴書重新檢視學校處理流程有沒有缺漏如果當中有涉及到重大違失的部分我們會去評估是不是需要做重啟調查那個專案小組會再處理"},{"start":617.735,"end":632.487,"text":"所以專業報告現在已經成立了那我們什麼時候可以有下一波的進度呢我想我們應該會努力在一個月內把整個審視的過程對布里頭後續如何督導學校來改善會提出一個完整的評估的建議"},{"start":632.987,"end":652.613,"text":"所以一個月這個外部的調查小組就會提供我們這樣子的一個結果然後如果他們認為裡面有輸入我們就會重啟調查對不對是會由部的性評會來調查還是由台大跟我們報告目前這一個是性評會部的性評會做成的一個決議"},{"start":653.573,"end":664.446,"text":"第一個決議就是這樣所以我們因為整個審視那當然如果沒有我們這一個如果台大有疏漏我們當然要一定要重啟調查這是無庸置疑的對對對我是說到底是誰會來重啟這個調查"},{"start":667.782,"end":684.743,"text":"我們目前我們是教育部裡邊的這個性評會裡邊組成這個調查小組我是說這個調查小組是現在來看流程有沒有缺失嘛對不對看完缺失就覺得有問題之後就要重啟調查嘛那是誰會來重啟這個調查呢如果有疏漏的話"},{"start":686.121,"end":707.472,"text":"跟委員報告 依照性評法這一個還是學校性評會的權責當然如果將來真的需要重啟調查我們會對於調查小組的成員提供建議希望它另組而不是原來的因為我為什麼要確認這一點就是我怕到時候的結果如果我們沒有我們因為其實我想市長也非常清楚民間一直在講我們很多的性評準"},{"start":709.214,"end":723.37,"text":"性平的這個調查資料庫裡面其實很多人都不斷有更新性的性平意識所以這件事情會非常非常的重要好 那這件事情我也會持續的追下去好 那再來就是還是回到一下行動仔"},{"start":723.69,"end":747.149,"text":"這件事情那這也是最近很多學生包含我之前也有幫我們的學生來跟教育部開一個協調會那學生其實非常強調一個重點那我也想問一下教育部對於這件事情的看法就是說他們是希望可以建立一個比照服役委員會的規範建立一個諮詢委員會來確保他們的聲音可以被聽見"},{"start":748.73,"end":761.338,"text":"那這個其實已經 婦醫委員會其實已經行駛多年了啦那這個學生其實也蠻習慣那當天是說會帶回去討論那我不曉得說現在已經一個多禮拜了我們有沒有沒有討論那是不是也可以來簡單說明一下"},{"start":764.019,"end":787.033,"text":"跟我們報告我們確實在因為這個草案目前在預告嘛所以我們6月1號還有一個實體跟線上我們也希望能夠廣收這個廣聽這個高中時學生他們的一些意見那會後我們會把委員的意見裡面一併都納入這個我們草案裡面看怎麼樣去做一些必要的一些調查"},{"start":787.193,"end":808.716,"text":"我想問一下,因為其實學生,不管是之前我跟部長在提這件事情,或是當天我們開協調會,或是今天早上學生開記者會,其實都蠻在乎的,就是他們的聲音會不會被聽見嘛,在學校裡面,不是只有這一次教育部的這個會議,是學校裡面,所以他們非常希望可以以服醫委員會的方式來進行,那這個部的態度到底是什麼呢?"},{"start":811.263,"end":830.949,"text":"因為這個我覺得是學生非常非常堅持的一個部分是誰要來跟委員說明那因為我們這次收集的是參採各方意見如果在後面如果學生的整個意見這個方面是非常強烈那我們就會慎重考慮把它做這樣子版本的一個做調整"},{"start":831.98,"end":849.803,"text":"所以你的意思我可以解讀為是你們是有意願接受的對嗎其實跟委員說明一下我們目前其實是參採因為這個是一個社會溝通的過程所以我們必須參採各方的意見之後我們去做這樣子的我懂我的意思"},{"start":849.923,"end":869.314,"text":"對我的意思是說因為其實我們都可以聽到學生非常在乎這一帕嘛這件事情嘛那當然在很多就是說到底要不要收手機這裡面還有很多的爭議但是在這個他們希望在學校裡面他們可以用這種方式來進行我覺得我想那這樣子我這樣問好了如果我們最後在6月1號開完會學生都極力要求這一個所以教育部就會支持嗎"},{"start":871.096,"end":889.872,"text":"登委員報告那我們會跟現場執行面在做一些協商之後會想辦法把這樣子的一個訴求納入原則內好 了解 謝謝謝謝 謝謝司長那我最後快快問再耽誤一點點時間我本來其實很想問學生輔導法但我今天可能時間不太夠但我先問體育署"},{"start":899.633,"end":925.911,"text":"好 體育署我想不管我們過去一直不停的在講就是如何的展現體育署會監督我們的單項協會那這個上個月 三月的時候呢全這個 金週刊呢其實也專題報導民間對於體育署讓體育改革後的國體法修法其實都還是有很大的疑慮就是特別針對於單項協會這件事情因為過去我們看一看到冰球協會有暗抗補助款"},{"start":927.092,"end":944.29,"text":"或是足协有福报过高的转播费甚至去年我处理的极箭事件极箭协会等等的事件其实我都知道体育署有进行调查那我们也提出了组决议希望他可以公告但是呢体育署给我的回复呢还是说会把这个惩处放在反评报告当中"},{"start":945.131,"end":959.019,"text":"他還是不是放在一個公告的地方讓民眾知道體育署的確是有在監督的那我想問一下這一件事情我們還是希望可以放到公告的地方到底可不可以呢"},{"start":959.795,"end":984.111,"text":"包委員這部分我想因為它本身如果公告的話算是一個行政法所以這樣子的部分必須要有法源的依據那我是建議啦委員我們會後我們是不是來努力看看我們針對整個要如果要在國體法去修法要做公佈這件事情我們從它的適宜性原則比例整個最小侵害性還有它整個的是不是達到它的目的公義性等等我們做評估我們來評估看看說未來我們來做這個修法"},{"start":986.633,"end":1006.767,"text":"因為沒有這個修法我們的確沒有辦法直接公佈在網站上所以這件事情是你們要再跟你們自己的法務單位還是要跟法務部這邊也要再討論嗎目前我們知道是一定要修法其實說要不要這個修法的過程要去做評估這件事情接下來我會來跟委員這邊再做討論我們事實的如果真的有必要我們就來做啟動"},{"start":1007.895,"end":1019.378,"text":"好 那這個我們就盡快約好不好因為這件事情我覺得如果接下來我們九月就要掛牌了那這個是一直以來長期民間關心非常重要的議題好 謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢 官員請回座我們接下來請伍麗華委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":606,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：首先我還是要針對臺大性平事件來請教部長。因為我想部長應該非常清楚我非常關心這個議題，我從一開始就一直不停地在關切這件事情，這次之所以引發這麼多的爭議，是因為教育部處理的速度太慢了！教育部作為最高的性平主管機關，應該要樹立典範，所以我認為還有精進的空間，不曉得我這樣子說，部長您認同嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我同意委員的說法。確實，教育部怎麼責成臺大有更積極的作為，在對學生權益的維護，包含事後對受傷害的學生有更多的心理或者輔導上的支持、力量，我想確實臺大是可以有精進的空間。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想不只是臺大，包含教育部都還有精進的空間，所以我想接下來在這件事情上面，我們有一些要檢討的地方。目前葉次長已經請假，正準備要調查，所以我想要知道，雖然性平會已經正式立案調查，但可不可以簡單說明一下目前的調查進度？什麼時候可以有調查結果？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，性平會確實在上個禮拜五已經召開，而葉次長應該接受調查，也組成專案，至於星期一的會議決議也讓性平委員都看過了，等於說已確定會議紀錄，所以現在調查小組也正式在下禮拜……"],["張委員雅琳：下禮拜一就會有調查小組？"],["鄭部長英耀：下禮拜一就會召開第1次的會議進行調查，在調查期間，我們希望為了公平……"],["張委員雅琳：沒問題，我只是想了解一下，我也知道部長大概要說什麼。現在我們還是回到現實上面我們可以處理的事情，既然下禮拜一會有調查小組，有沒有預估什麼時間會完成調查結果呢？因為我希望這個結果是可以越快越好啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：現在教育部的立場也是希望越快越好，因為某種程度來說，這個調查期間對葉次長相當程度，他也是……事實上也是相當……"],["張委員雅琳：我想還是回到學生啦！從學生的角度來看，大家現在關切的就是這件事情到底有沒有影響到學生？為什麼我希望它可以儘快出來？因為我們要保障的還是這個學生。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以重點應該是放在學生身上。我想知道現在有沒有規劃，什麼時候會有調查結果呢？因為在性平法的規定大概是2個月要完成，必要時可延長2次，每次不得逾1個月，但我知道今天的情況可能不一定適用。所以我想知道你們有沒有抓時間點？希望什麼時候可以得到結果？"],["鄭部長英耀：誠如委員所講的，因為涉及到政務官，所以我們希望能夠在公平、公正、不受干擾的情況下，在1個月裡……"],["張委員雅琳：好，1個月。"],["鄭部長英耀：能夠有完整的調查報告出來。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。我也想再請問一下，現在對這個學生，臺大有沒有提供給他相關的心理輔導資源呢？因為根據性平法是應該要提供的。"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，這個學生基本上是輔導中心長期協助的對象，因為他本身就有一些……"],["張委員雅琳：所以在這次的事件之後有再多給嗎？還有再多給是不是？有再多給一些支持？"],["吳司長林輝：是的，心理師都有在持續提供心理諮商的服務。"],["張委員雅琳：OK。這一次我們看見整個教育部的性平意識不足，所以我想請教，現在對部裡的人員有沒有進行常態的性平教育訓練？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。確實，就整個案件來說，我們也在深切檢討整個行政過程到底疏漏在哪裡？也希望能夠導正、強化整個機制，希望這個事件不會再發生，我想這是屬於我們內部……當然，包含性平意識或者課程，或者我們教育部……"],["張委員雅琳：目前是有常態的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：過去是主要的主管機關，但是如果我們同仁在這部分有所不足，我們應該怎麼樣去增能，我想這個確實是我們要努力的。"],["張委員雅琳：我剛剛的問題就是說，現在教育部裡面到底有沒有定期做這件事情？因為我們有要求學校老師要定期回訓，那我們對自己部裡的人員到底有沒有做這些要求呢？"],["吳司長林輝：有，我們人事單位每年都固定辦理員工培訓，尤其最近性平法、性工法、性騷法修正之後，有很多新的規定，以及當中的一個法的差異，針對這部分其實有做了蠻多詳細的說明，而且邀請的講師都是性平會裡頭非常有經驗的學者專家。"],["張委員雅琳：你們有沒有一些相關的評估機制來看這個成效呢？"],["吳司長林輝：我們都有請他們填回饋問卷。"],["張委員雅琳：讓我們來看一下回饋的問卷好不好？提供給我一下回饋問卷還有結果，好不好？大概一個禮拜之內應該可以提供吧？"],["吳司長林輝：我們請我們的人事處來協助，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：好。我想問一下，剛剛說你們有定期做這件事情，但是這件事情就顯示是不足的，應該要再增能，有關增能的部分有相關的計畫嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會整體來看，哪一個地方有疏漏，我們就先從那個地方來補強。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒問題，今天我大概還會有一些要求，希望待會都可以得到部長比較正面的回應。","第二個部分，我想請教有關個資保護與洩密，教育部在2019年修訂教育部個資保護管理要點，明定各單位應指定專人協助辦理個資保護相關事項。我想問一下，在這次的事件上，有應循這個要點來做嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：有，確定有。"],["張委員雅琳：好。我想問一下，因為承辦有洩漏個資的問題，所以我們看到承辦已經被懲處，對不對？"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想問一下，學特司司長吳林輝是否也應該對這件事情負起一些監督不周的責任呢？因為我現在沒有看到您的部分。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上吳司長也自請處分、他有自請處分。"],["張委員雅琳：也有處分是不是？好。其實學特司是最重要的，因為它就是性平事件最重要的教育主管機關，可是這次的事件，我覺得會對於基層的信心打擊很大，所以我們必須要採取更積極的作為。","接下來，這一次的個資洩漏事件，除了懲處之外，我認為應該要再加強個資保護的制度，是不是有更嚴謹的資料管理流程，或是加強資安保護、個資保護的訓練？這個部分是我的第二個訴求。","第三個部分，在這次事件上面，我覺得教育部也應該要建立相對應的問責機制，確保未來我們可以更謹慎地來處理性平與個資的相關事務。關於這三點，是不是可以提出相關的精進計畫或檢討報告？因為我認為不只是對立法委員要交代清楚，最重要是要對社會，而且也要讓學生很清楚地知道我們是如何應對這件事情，讓這樣子的事情未來不要再發生，這個部分部長可以承諾我嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。確實也因為這個事件，我們內部已經在內控內稽的部分做了一些流程調整，過去可能當事人本於分層負責，他就直接回應那一個陳情人……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在在程序裡面加一個流程，就是科長一定要整個看過、檢視過，這個文才可以出去。我們加強了內控內稽這樣的程序，希望能夠遵循性平法所有的規定，而不要讓所有關心性平工作，或者讓這個受傷害的人受到再次傷害。"],["張委員雅琳：我知道，不要再受第二次的傷害。所以相關的檢討報告，還有剛剛有提到的在個資保護上多加了一個層級，這些是不是也都可以提供？大概什麼時候可以提供給我們辦公室呢？"],["吳司長林輝：我想我們會後就提供。"],["張委員雅琳：檢討報告嗎？我是說整個機制的檢討報告，會後就可以提供？"],["吳司長林輝：因為我們先前內部已經有做檢討，而且也強化了相關人員的培訓。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那就會後提供給我。","最後一件事情，我想請教關於臺大這件事情，我們要一直不停地關心，其實最關鍵的問題還是在臺大。我知道部長已經發了公文，一直不停地在跟臺大做溝通，但顯然臺大還是認為它的處置沒有問題，接下來我們到底該怎麼辦呢？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，我們性平會已經成立專案小組，會協助我們從監察院的糾正文、從法院的起訴書，重新檢視學校處理流程有沒有缺漏。如果當中有涉及到重大違失，我們會去評估是不是需要重啟調查，專案小組會再處理。"],["張委員雅琳：所以專案小組現在已經成立了，什麼時候可以有下一波的進度呢？"],["吳司長林輝：我們會努力在一個月內把整個審視的過程，對於部裡頭後續如何督導學校來改善，提出完整的評估建議。"],["張委員雅琳：所以一個月內這個外部的調查小組就會提供一個結果？如果他們認為裡面有疏漏，你們就會重啟調查，對不對？是會由部的性平會還是由臺大來調查？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，目前這是部的性平會作成的決議，第一個決議就是這樣，所以我們會整個審視。當然，如果臺大有疏漏，我們一定要重啟調查，這是無庸置疑的。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我是說到時候是誰來重啟調查？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前是由教育部裡邊的性平會組成調查小組。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道，但這個調查小組是來看流程有沒有缺失，看完如果覺得有問題就要重啟調查，那是由誰來重啟這個調查呢？如果有疏漏的話。"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，依照性平法，這部分還是學校性平會的權責；但如果將來真的需要重啟調查，我們會對調查小組的成員提供建議，希望另組一個不是原來的……"],["張委員雅琳：為什麼我要再確認這一點？因為我怕到時候的結果……我想司長也非常清楚，民間一直在講，在很多性平調查資料庫裡面，其實很多人都不一定真的有更新的性平意識，所以這件事情會非常、非常地重要，這件事情我也會持續追下去。","再來還是回到行動載具這件事情，這也是最近很多學生所關心的，包含我之前也有幫學生跟教育部召開協調會，學生其實非常強調一個重點，我也想問一下教育部對於這件事情的看法。也就是他們希望可以比照服儀委員會的規範，建立諮詢委員會，確保他們的聲音可以被聽見。服儀委員會其實已經行使多年了，學生也蠻習慣的，當天是說會帶回去討論，現在已經一個多禮拜了，我不曉得你們有沒有討論？是不是可以簡單說明一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這個草案目前還在預告，6月1號還有一個實體跟線上討論，我們也希望能夠廣聽高中職學生的意見。會後我們會把委員的意見一併都納入我們的草案裡面，看怎麼樣去做一些必要的調整。"],["張委員雅琳：因為不管是之前我跟部長在提這件事情，或是當天我們開協調會，或是今天早上學生開記者會，其實這些學生蠻在乎的就是他們的聲音會不會被聽見？尤其是在學校裡面，而不是只有這一次教育部的會議，是在學校裡面。所以他們非常希望可以以服儀委員會的方式來進行，這個部分教育部的態度到底是什麼呢？我覺得這是學生非常、非常堅持的部分。"],["吳司長穎沺：跟委員說明，因為我們這次蒐集的是參採各方意見，如果學生對於這方面的意見非常強烈，我們就會慎重考慮把它做這樣子的版本調整。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我可以解讀為你們有意願接受的，對嗎？"],["吳司長穎沺：跟委員說明一下，這是一個社會溝通的過程，所以必須在參採各方的意見之後，我們去做這樣的……"],["張委員雅琳：我懂你的意思。其實我們可以聽到學生非常在乎這件事情，當然，到底要不要收手機，這裡面還有很多的爭議，但是他們希望在學校裡面可以用這種方式來進行。我這樣問好了，如果你們在6月1號開完會，學生都極力要求這個部分，教育部就會支持嗎？"],["吳司長穎沺：跟委員報告，我們會跟現場執行面再做一些協商之後，想辦法把這樣的訴求納入原則內。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解，謝謝司長。","我最後快快問，再耽誤一點點時間，我本來其實很想問學生輔導法，但今天可能時間不太夠。我先問體育署，我們過去一直不停在講的就是如何展現體育署會監督單項協會，3月的時候，今周刊也專題報導民間對於體育改革後的國體法修法，其實都還是有很大的疑慮，特別是針對單項協會這件事情。過去我們也曾看到冰球協會疑似暗槓補助款，或是足協浮報過高的轉播費，甚至去年我還處理過幾件與協會有關的事件等等，其實我知道這些體育署都有進行調查，我們也有提出主決議希望可以公告。但是體育署給我的回復還是說，會把這個懲處放在訪評報告當中，而不是公告來讓民眾知道體育署的確是有在監督的。我想問一下，我們還是希望這件事情可以公告，到底可不可以呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，因為這部分如果要公告的話，它算是行政罰，所以這部分必須要有法源依據。我是建議，會後我們是不是來努力看看？如果國體法要修法來公布這件事情，那我們要從它的適宜性、原則比例、最小侵害性，還有是不是有達到它的目的、公益性等等，我們來做評估，未來再修法。因為如果沒有修法，我們的確沒有辦法直接公布在網站上。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這件事情你們是要跟自己的法務單位？還是要再跟法務部討論？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前是一定要修法，只是說修法的過程還要做評估這件事情，接下來我會再跟委員這邊討論，如果真的有必要，我們再來啟動。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我們就儘快約，好不好？因為接下來9月體育署就要掛牌了，而這件事是一直以來、長期以來，民間都非常關心的重要議題。好，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-13","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","郭昱晴","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","萬美玲","陳培瑜","張啓楷","林月琴","黃國昌","徐欣瑩","謝龍介","翁曉玲"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關教育部主管預算解凍案33案","agenda_id":"1145401_00007"}}},{"id":"161993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f246432d4160565eeb0e795f59f7b69f6ae87f2bf784d93fc30444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"11:08:27 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那今年我們衛福部在預算刪減後大概增加了300億那行政院整體預算刪完之後還增加了729億但是現在依法原本應該給地方的一般性補助款這個2502億其中的636億被行政院放回自己的金庫裡面"},{"start":104.87,"end":122.085,"text":"那也就是說行政院手上多了1365億元相較之下苗栗縣一年的預算大概是270億元左右行政院這次違法刪減地方的一般性補助款達27%這等於直接讓苗栗的整體預算少了28.1億元"},{"start":123.846,"end":144.86,"text":"那這麼大的刪減那衝擊地方政府的執行我想也包含了長照老人福利及公共衛生等基層服務的能力這不僅是苗栗的問題我想全台灣都會發生那我當然知道這是行政院這邊來刪減的那但是這個部分也牽扯到我們衛福部的一些業務那部長你有什麼看法好我想"},{"start":146.662,"end":161.162,"text":"委員應該也可以了解到我們這些年來,在行政部門跟立法部門的一起共同的努力之下對於我們的弱勢,剛剛有提到的一些老人、心臟等等的各方面"},{"start":162.063,"end":181.488,"text":"都做了最大的 尤其像小孩我們現在也很理 怎麼樣做更好對 這些都是基本做的 都是很要做的事情中央這樣刪減 地方沒辦法做怎麼辦有些地方他是直接用電付 他們自己有錢他不夠的就去借錢嘛因為財政是 國家是一體的嘛那這邊如果"},{"start":182.548,"end":206.318,"text":"在某些法律之下分的比較多可能未來他就要擔任比較多的工作我想這個部分政府會考量考量到整個就是橫平性拿多少資源就做多少事但是總是大家是一家人意思是說錢不夠的話其他的就是可以不要做就對了"},{"start":207.415,"end":207.435,"text":"那個"},{"start":213.619,"end":237.609,"text":"還是要那個 該做的還是要做那財源 我們過去的財源不管你是在這根本是一般的補償款嘛這根本是找計畫的啊 不會比較多到地方不管是法律的改變讓那個財源有轉移到地方 那地方當然就要現在就是沒有錢啊 現在沒有轉移過來嘛 現在就是錢不夠啊"},{"start":238.983,"end":256.972,"text":"像這些都會影響到部長您認為你的業務裡面有沒有其他部分會受到影響影響的話怎麼處理錢又不夠像苗栗縣沒有錢他必須連舉債都不行這部分要停還是衛福部派人來執行"},{"start":261.294,"end":276.774,"text":"那個因為我們原來就有中央要該做的跟地方該做的那原來在預算方面就有一定的分配那後來預算的一個分配一般性補助款是地方來做中央委託地方做嘛對不對那因為你現在錢不給他了他沒辦法執行啊"},{"start":278.581,"end":308.101,"text":"那個是也不能取債啊你要怎麼樣停下來全部停下來非常感謝委員的那個關心啦我想這個就成如剛剛部長說這方地方我們都是一體嘛都是為人民來做事嘛但我現在必須要澄清一點就是說並我想這個主要應該是緩發啦而且另外一個很重要的重點就是說我們現在目前一般補助款雖然現在目前就這樣處理可是地方到地方現在目前還是可以根據施政的這個優先順序來做來做這個相關的一個調整問題就是錢不夠啊怎麼優先啊"},{"start":308.942,"end":311.007,"text":"後面怎麼做你說緩發他怎麼緩發"},{"start":313.135,"end":338.115,"text":"還是你要借我這個地方政府都有自己本身的優先順序跟權責我想這個自己本身都可以來做調配那你衛福部的立場你覺得哪個要先做哪個先不做這個我們尊重地方地方自己本身相關的一個處置所以你是說你剛剛講的那些項目都可以減就對了你衛福部支持做不發就對了"},{"start":338.868,"end":367.228,"text":"不是,報告委員,我剛剛已經說了,這個整個一般補助款,這個現在基本上就是...來,先...公務員報告,那目前在衛福部的主管的社會福利的預算的部分,那有關在給到地方...我覺得沒那麼多時間,你也不要解釋啦你也不要解釋,我結論一下啦,就是說我請衛福部啦,因為我們剛剛講的這些都非常重要啦"},{"start":367.868,"end":383.417,"text":"像這一般性補助款如果受到影響的這個縣市我希望衛福部您應該要拿出您專業的意見跟我們行政院這邊來幫地方來反映不要讓這些事情沒有辦法去執行我想這是我今天要問的重點我們這個事情就到這邊部長可以嗎"},{"start":386.265,"end":410.785,"text":"因為我們現在 你要體恤一下我們地方執行的困難啦當然當然 過去政府一直就是非常重視希望部長把這個聲音帶到行政院這樣可以嗎我想過去政府就一直很重視我們尤其是偏鄉或者比較弱縣市比較經費比較有限的一個社會福利我相信政府這些年來的努力大家都看得到啦那如果是政府的"},{"start":412.246,"end":439.623,"text":"預算被核三或相當凍結那當然就是可能會做一些調配但是我想政府對於各縣市的一個社會福利的努力一定會希望部長能夠了解我們民間疾苦有這個部分跟行政院反映一下因為有些東西真的是不能停好不好是我們一起來努力好謝謝一起來努力那部長先請回一下您休息一下那我請這個各自會的代表各自有來嗎"},{"start":445.226,"end":450.295,"text":"來部長請回今天不是有來嗎?有,來林組長個人資料保護委員會籌備處林組長"},{"start":462.56,"end":483.03,"text":"你好我請問一下我們教育部這個葉秉成次長他不是法定可接觸個資者的身份那確認取得性平安的個資並公開在社群裡面那媒體上評論這個事件你們個資這個保護人員會掌握的嗎這個部分我們新聞上有看到所以你只是看新聞那現在你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":492.914,"end":521.175,"text":"我們立場的話基本上個資法保護的是所有台灣民眾的個人資料這個算不算嘛他為什麼可以拿到這個個資呢他的資料來源的話那當然是要看那個看當事人他取得的方式啦這是不是一起涉及公務機關內部未經授權流用敏感資料的個資保護的一個重大案件應該算吧"},{"start":522.279,"end":550.638,"text":"基本上資料的收集的話都會有所謂的合法室友那教育部有沒有主動通訪你們這部分我們可能要回去再瞭解一下所以你們什麼都不知道對不對那各支會有沒有主動啟動調查這我們回去再瞭解一下因為這個基本上公務機關收集資料的話這是你們的業務嗎還是你們這個事情說只是酬庸的部門什麼事都不用做"},{"start":552.705,"end":559.77,"text":"沒有 這個我們會去了解這個案子已經出現那麼多天了耶你們怎麼到現在都沒有反應呢就當作沒有人講就算了 就當作看不見然後自然飄過如果是個人他洩漏資料的部分的話這個有相關的一些可能會有相關的法律有規定相關的法律証明那我在這邊要求啦 你們要主動調查而且公開結果好不好"},{"start":581.172,"end":604.164,"text":"可以嗎這我們了解了解是什麼意思這我們會回去再去處理主動處理嘛對不對那該送法辦還是要法辦啊對不對你們報告要提出來好不好因為時間的問題我不想浪費太多時間可以嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1252,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時8分）主席好，我們請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我想請問部長，社會福利包含了兒少福利、婦女福利、老人福利、身心障礙福利、保護福利、社會救助、社會保險，政府每年在重視社會福利，說要把資源留給需要的人，要建立完善的長照制度，不能讓最需要的人被落下，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果這些社會福利錢不夠的時候，你覺得哪一個要先刪？"],["邱部長泰源：我想每一個面向都需要，我們當然都要顧及，每一個都是重要的，剛剛委員提的都是重要的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講好了，這是衛福部主要的推動政策，在執行面上是不是要靠地方政府來執行，然後相互合作，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我想中央跟地方相互合作當然是很重要的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！今年衛福部在預算刪減後大概增加了300億，行政院整體預算刪完之後還增加了729億，但是現在依法原本應該給地方的一般性補助款2,502億，其中的636億被行政院放回自己的金庫裡面。也就是說，行政院手上多了1,365億元，相較之下，苗栗縣一年的預算大概是270億元左右，行政院這次違法刪減地方的一般性補助款達27%，這等於直接讓苗栗的整體預算少了28.1億元。這麼大的刪減，衝擊地方政府的執行，我想也包含長照、老人福利及公共衛生等基層服務能力，這不僅是苗栗的問題，我想全臺灣都會發生。我當然知道這是行政院這邊刪減的，但是這個部分也牽扯到衛福部的一些業務，部長，你有什麼看法？"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員應該也可以了解到這些年來在行政部門跟立法部門的共同努力之下，對於我們的弱勢，尤其剛剛提到的老人、身心障礙等各方面都做了最大的……特別像小孩的部分，我們現在也研擬怎麼樣做得更好……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，這些都是基本的……"],["邱部長泰源：都是要做的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：中央這樣刪減，地方沒辦法做怎麼辦？有些地方是直接用墊付的方式，他們自己有錢，不夠的就去借錢。"],["邱部長泰源：因為財政是國家一體的，這邊如果在某些法律之下分得比較多，可能未來它就要擔任比較多的工作，我想這個部分政府會考量到整個的衡平性，拿多少資源就做多少事，大家總是一家人，一起……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以部長的意思是，錢不夠的話，其他的可以不要做就對了？"],["邱部長泰源：該做的還是要做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有錢怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：財源的部分，過去的財源不管是在中央……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這原本是一般性補助款，原本就是照計畫走的。"],["邱部長泰源：或者是撥比較多到地方，若法律的改變讓財源轉移到地方，地方當然就要負起更多的責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在就是沒有錢、沒有轉移過來，現在就是錢不夠，對不對？像這些都會影響到。部長，您認為您的業務裡面有沒有其他部分受到影響？若有影響的話要怎麼處理？錢又不夠，像苗栗縣沒有錢，連舉債都不行，這部分要停還是衛福部派人來執行？"],["邱部長泰源：原來就有中央該做的跟地方該做的，當然在預算方面就有一定的分配，後來預算的分配……"],["邱委員鎮軍：一般性補助款是地方來做……"],["邱部長泰源：分配有改變嘛！"],["邱委員鎮軍：中央委託地方做，對不對？因為現在錢不給它了，它沒辦法執行啊！"],["邱部長泰源：那個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：也不能舉債啊！要怎麼樣？全部停下來？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的關心，就誠如剛剛部長說的，中央、地方都是一體，都是為人民做事，但我現在必須要澄清一點，我想這個主要應該是緩發，而且另外一個很重要的重點是，一般性補助款雖然目前作帳處理，可是地方現在還是可以根據施政的優先順序來做相關的調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：問題就是錢不夠，怎麼優先呢？後面怎麼做？你說緩發，它怎麼緩發？還是你要借我？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是衛福部先借苗栗縣？"],["呂次長建德：地方政府都有本身的優先順序跟權責，我想這個都可以自行調配。"],["邱委員鎮軍：以衛福部的立場，你覺得哪個要先做、哪個先不做？"],["呂次長建德：我們尊重地方的相關處置。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你是說剛剛講的那些項目都可以減就對了？衛福部是支持不發就對了？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員，我剛剛已經說了，整個一般性補助款現在基本上就是……"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前衛福部主管的社會福利預算部分，有關在給地方政府……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！我沒那麼多的時間，你也不要解釋，我結論一下，因為我們剛才講的這些都非常重要，像一般性補助款，如果受到影響的縣市，我希望衛福部應該要拿出你們專業的意見跟行政院來幫地方反映，不要讓這些事情沒有辦法執行，這個是我今天要問的重點，這個事情就到這邊，部長，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們現在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要體恤一下地方執行的困難。"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然，過去政府一直非常重視……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望部長把這個聲音帶到行政院，這樣可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：過去政府就一直很重視……尤其是偏鄉或者縣市經費比較有限的社會福利，我相信政府這些年來的努力大家都看得到，如果政府的預算被核刪或凍結，那當然可能會做一些調配，但是我想政府對於各縣市社會福利的努力一定會繼續下去。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望部長能夠了解民間疾苦，這個部分跟行政院反映一下，因為有些東西真的是不能停，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們一起來努力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝，部長先請回，您休息一下。","我請個資會的代表，有來嗎？"],["主席：部長請回。"],["邱委員鎮軍：今天不是有來嗎？"],["主席：有，請個人資料保護委員會籌備處林組長。"],["林組長逸塵：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你好。我請問一下，教育部葉丙成次長不是法定可接觸個資者的身分，去年取得性平案的個資並公開在社群裡面，媒體上評論這個事件，請問個資保護委員會掌握這個部分了嗎？"],["林組長逸塵：我們在新聞上有看到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你只是看新聞，現在呢？你們的態度是什麼？"],["林組長逸塵：我們的立場，基本上個資法保護的是所有臺灣民眾的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這不算嗎？這個算不算？"],["林組長逸塵：個人資料。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個算不算？他為什麼可以拿到這個個資呢？"],["林組長逸塵：關於他的資料來源，當然要看當事人取得的方式，可能是學校或其他的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是不是一起涉及公務機關內部未經授權流用敏感資料的個資保護重大案件？應該算吧，對不對？"],["林組長逸塵：基本上，資料的蒐集都會有所謂的合法事由，還有特定的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：教育部有沒有主動通報你們？"],["林組長逸塵：這個部分我們可能要回去再了解一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們什麼都不知道，對不對？個資會有沒有主動啟動調查？"],["林組長逸塵：這我們回去再了解一下，因為基本上公務機關蒐集資料都會有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是你們的業務嗎？還是你們只是酬庸的部門，什麼事都不用做？"],["林組長逸塵：沒有，這個我們會去了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個案子已經出現那麼多天了耶！你們怎麼到現在都沒有反應呢？沒有人講就算了，就當作看不見，然後自然飄過？"],["林組長逸塵：如果是個人洩露資料的部分，可能法律會有規定相關的責任……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我在這邊要求你們要主動調查，而且要公開結果，可以嗎？"],["林組長逸塵：這個我們了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：了解是什麼意思？"],["林組長逸塵：我們會回去再去處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：主動處理，對不對？該送法辦的還是要法辦，你們的報告要提出來，因為時間的關係，我不想浪費太多時間。可以嗎？"],["林組長逸塵：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。接下來請黃秀芳委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":548,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-14","speakers":["劉建國","林淑芬","王育敏","何欣純","王正旭","林月琴","黃捷","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳培瑜","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","陳瑩","楊曜","陳昭姿","張嘉郡","林德福","廖偉翔","涂權吉","李坤城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145502_00002","1145502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案 64案（含報告事項51\n案及討論事項13案）；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二)委員林月\n琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(五)委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童\n托育服務法草案」案、(六)委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(七)委員蔡易餘等\n17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(八)委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n(九)委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十一)委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十二)委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、(十四)委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十五)委員王正旭等\n18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十六) 委員吳沛憶等18 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案；三、(一)繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員邱志\n偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員李\n柏毅等16 人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員羅廷瑋等16 人擬具\n「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1145502_00001"}}},{"id":"161992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f246d10befc3f0e17391b5ee1b3bf308d2e87f2bf784d93fc30b68fd153a217bd045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:06:21 - 11:16:14","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-28","start_time":"2025-05-28T11:06:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-28T11:16:14+08:00","duration":593,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.730343750000001,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.78909375,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.10034375,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.300968750000003,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.570968750000002,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.58784375,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.03534375,"end":58.587218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.14409375,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.47471875000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.26784375000001,"end":80.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.25034375,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.08909375,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.10596875,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.17346875000001,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.97909375,"end":97.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.58096875000001,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.40721875000001,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.54534375,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.88659375,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.74221875,"end":119.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.04534375,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.27659375000002,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.77721875,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.01346875000002,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.01096875000002,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.79971875,"end":195.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.74846875,"end":190.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.03909375,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.94159375,"end":211.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.59471875000003,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.03721875000002,"end":203.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.81221875,"end":214.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.76534375,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.46409375000002,"end":225.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.88909375,"end":233.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.51346875000002,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.56784375,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.17471875,"end":242.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.97221875,"end":278.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.19034375,"end":276.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.29159375,"end":276.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.56971875,"end":294.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.89221875000004,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.13159375000004,"end":302.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.40971875,"end":310.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.71659375,"end":317.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.68596875000003,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.66471875,"end":320.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.84096875,"end":325.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.12346875000003,"end":326.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.63346875,"end":330.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.96659375,"end":338.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.50971875000005,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.84596875,"end":360.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.97221875,"end":349.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.61346875000004,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.53596875,"end":375.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.55034375,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.97846875000005,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.45471875000004,"end":393.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.82034375,"end":404.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40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謝謝召委 請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":16.599,"end":43.679,"text":"我想大家今天提的主要也都希望給農民退休儲金有更好的一些待遇然後也給農民更多的支持大方向上我想大家都是朝這個方向在努力但是我也看到了大概初步的一些規劃上也有考慮到包括農民跟勞工之間的恆平性上的問題其實我也鼓勵未來應該更多都朝向給予他們更多支持的方向就農民勞工其實都是比較辛苦的都應該給予更多支持"},{"start":44.64,"end":62.921,"text":"在這樣的狀況下的話,這個部長這邊,那未來會朝向是政府多一點點支持嗎?補貼的方式嗎?多一點?我跟委員報告齁,就是從我們實際上再去了解,就是農民催促儲金農民朋友在考慮的,特別是青農朋友在考慮的,第一個是他們的儲蓄習慣"},{"start":64.282,"end":88.336,"text":"那他們第二個是他們的除夕的這些相關的能力啦那能力的部分因為特別在青農的部分他們才剛進入從事農業可能10年以下他們對到65歲還有很長的一段時間他們覺得說不確定性蠻高的所以他們期待的是能夠降低他們的負擔那所以"},{"start":89.076,"end":93.868,"text":"委員雖然提的我們也尊重而且我們也會演繹他現在是我舉個例子100對100現在是100對100那未來是100對150嘛"},{"start":98.652,"end":118.619,"text":"對於還沒有加入的人就部長的建議反倒是降低現在農民的負擔對 這樣的話意願會比較提高對 就未來的變化還很多但是降低他們的負擔政府多協助 多提撥一點然後農民提撥少一點但是總額其實是沒有改變那這樣對他們實際上的幫助會來更大會朝這個方向對 會朝這個方向"},{"start":120.24,"end":135.248,"text":"剛好當年在勞工退休金的時候剛好那時候我也在勞委會服務所以剛好我參與到其中我也認為其實是一個很好的制度甚至很多還會自己加碼提撥所以我覺得這個制度面其實是一個好的制度面那我也希望未來如果朝向部長這樣的方向的話"},{"start":136.028,"end":156.54,"text":"就是我們在給政府多提一點然後給農民少提一點的話那希望在未來的部分給予讓他們有更多的一些支持一方面他們資金的調度會比較好一點一方面也給予他們更多未來退休生活後的保障我覺得這是一個好的方向啦那也請部長盡快把這個方案提出來好不好會這個議定什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":157,"end":168.696,"text":"我想我們大概的方案除了委員的版本我們會去分析以外那我們剛才提的這些概念還有一個非常重要也是委員您也在關心的就是有一些過去曾經是從事勞工的對"},{"start":171.82,"end":196.187,"text":"他為了不放棄他的勞保的方式然後但是他又持續從事農業那這個部分是沒有辦法獲得保障的我們也希望說這個部分能夠用什麼樣的機制讓他們也能夠加入農民退休儲金就讓他能夠銜接進來能夠整個來支持能夠變成類似雙軌的概念我覺得這個都是好的方向我們會整體的提出來以後就整體來思考一下因為"},{"start":197.707,"end":214.273,"text":"農民跟勞工都是相對上比較辛苦比較那個那如果給予他們多一點支持我想這個大家都是有共識的啦那如何怎麼樣他們有些過去他們思考點在轉軌的過程怎麼去轉得更順一點給他們更多的支持好不好這個請部長再多費心那一定什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":216.355,"end":231.931,"text":"我們的方案大概已經分析的跟研擬的差不多了第一個我們先要跟行政院做報告因為所有的資金會有所以下個會期進到立法院來應該是可以如果說我們的方案獲得行政院同意的話下個會期就會進來"},{"start":233.012,"end":261.153,"text":"我們下一個會議進來我們希望下一期進速來完成我們現在第一個第一階段就是要獲得行政院的支持跟同意對 因為行政院會有恆平上的整體的考量對 它又有跟農民勞工跟其他的所有的事情的恆平上的考量它應該會有一致性的思考是好那我們期待下個會議期來進速來通過那再來我先請教一下我看到部長也有在談論到農業金庫這個農業金庫有將近一兆的一個金額那大家也都很擔憂"},{"start":261.974,"end":277.148,"text":"部長我們現在能不能完全的掌控好這樣的一個農業金庫的運作我相信農業金庫第一個農業金庫現在的經營我們用專業經理人像現在的董事長就是專業的一個經理人所以我們希望說農業金庫他是"},{"start":279.069,"end":301.418,"text":"協助我們農業的各項資金金融的支持還有對於我們的農會的信用部的一些監管的部分我們會更落實那這個這樣的一個過程中我們都希望有更好的措施所以在經營面農業部能不能精準的去掌握住農業經過我知道很多人大概都想要掌握到農業經過中我們現在是"},{"start":303.442,"end":317.321,"text":"我們的公股包括我們的獨立董事我們是能夠具有主導權現在主導權幾席我們總共主導權應該有5席的獨董加6席的公股是11席所以15席"},{"start":318.642,"end":337.973,"text":"裡面有十一席是可以那個那我還是要請部長還是要那個因為這幾道是整個國家的整體的對農民的權益跟整體我覺得這個事情還是要由政府來主導這個才會讓大家信任但是我們主導過程中我們也會讓農會來參與所以十五席裡面有總共有九席是農漁會的代表"},{"start":338.733,"end":356.019,"text":"就是農業會也能夠充分的表達那個意見所以我們希望說在這個政股主導的過程中也能夠讓農會來參與這個提供意見大家都沒有問題我講的是主導權啊因為畢竟它關股的這個還是有相當重要的那現在有很多提到說持股一趴以上就能夠來"},{"start":357.499,"end":374.454,"text":"獲得提名權 這個部長支持這樣的方案嗎我們基本上不希望用這樣的方式最主要就是說當你有一趴的時候那相對的因為大概很多農會組成的嘛他就可以提一些董事那你也知道農會有定期的選舉那選舉裡面也有一些分老嘛"},{"start":375.054,"end":395.113,"text":"那很容易被有心人做操控那如果說操控成功的話我們的經營權就會轉移到這些農會而且是特定的這些組織裡面去的時候那相對的對國家來講是一個災難因為部長我們一看過太多民間的企業怎麼樣被禿鷹給襲擊然後導致失去了主導權然後導致那個"},{"start":396.634,"end":412.96,"text":"這個農業金庫是國家很重要的一個然後我希望這塊還是要部長要緊守住由國家主導這個方向因為國家一定是國家的利益農民的利益為最大那但是如果是各個農會或者地方派系那就不一定了他的思考點就不見得是如此"},{"start":413.22,"end":428.666,"text":"我覺得這個部分一定要嚴格的把關好不好 請部長要嚴守住這樣一個底線那再來我請教一下日本最近缺米那台灣的米銷往日本其實是一個很好的機會那今年的一到四月已經有五萬五千多 五千多 對"},{"start":429.706,"end":453.351,"text":"對那這樣看這樣比例有可能今年有機會突破到1.5萬噸有機會嗎我們的初步的預估至少可以到1萬噸至少到1萬噸應該是一個低標吧我就看1到4月都已經一半了對就是我們的低標是1萬噸那同時我們也在觀察現在日本有一些所謂的他們的類似我們公糧的廚米有釋出嘛但是不影響我們的輸出啦對不是啦我希望朝"},{"start":455.752,"end":477.58,"text":"1.5萬噸的這個還是要更積極一點的目標啦因為我覺得一方面是日本缺米正是我們機會打進日本是我們的好機會那另外一方面是日本跟台灣過去以來長期以來這樣的關係其實是而且我們的米的品質也越好那加上我們的米的量其實是足夠的那如果我們把我們的優質好的米能夠輸入到日本趁這一次機會坦白講一般如果他不缺米你也沒有機會打進去啦"},{"start":478.08,"end":493.169,"text":"因為缺米那這時候應該大力的打進去讓台灣的米能夠外銷到日本去那如果形成他們很認可台灣的米也習慣的時候對台灣的稻米也是一個很好的良心我跟委員報告我們不只是說他缺米才打進去我們希望說我們打進去以後是可以持續的"},{"start":493.869,"end":509.7,"text":"這一定要留下來這個留下來而且是我們現在跟很多日本大的通路商在合作那通路商走高端的品牌的時候就可以做市場區隔讓我們的稻米持續的外銷我希望是我們很多優質的稻米能夠打進去因為日本的稻米非常的好"},{"start":510.14,"end":533.777,"text":"大家很多人還在日本很喜歡吃日本的稻米但是我希望趁這個機會把台灣優質的稻米打進日本市場而且是長遠的但我講的只是說因為是缺米現在才有這個機會如果不缺米我們也不好打但是因為缺米的時候它需求量大的時候反倒我們應該趁這個時候把區隔做出來跟其他國家的區隔做出來然後打進去日本市場那這個對於台灣的稻米市場的會有很大的幫助啦對我們朝這個1.5萬噸來努力"},{"start":534.878,"end":550.033,"text":"我覺得一萬噸太低標了這幾乎不用隨什麼理應應該要設定高一點的目標才能夠去達成那一萬噸照現在的努力方向應該也都可以達成好不好謝謝那最後請教一個我們羽洋漁船的收購部分這個沒有問題吧"},{"start":550.974,"end":559.003,"text":"這個我想 基本上我們內部都已經處理了 現在在抱怨嘛在抱怨的部分 然後我們也會跟行政院做一個很好的勾勒所以會延長到116年 82艘 總經費達到28億28.49億所以會這樣子啦"},{"start":572.717,"end":578.626,"text":"朝這個方向來前進我們引爆院長我們會跟行政院做好那請再跟院長來爭取我也會跟院長來拜託這個對於整個產業的提升競爭力是有幫助的好謝謝現在請邱志偉委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時6分）謝謝召委，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，大家今天提的，主要也都是希望給農民退休儲金有一些更好的待遇，然後也給農民更多的支持，大方向上大家都是朝這個方向在努力。但是我也看到，在大概、初步的規劃上，也有考慮到包括農民跟勞工之間衡平性的問題，其實我也鼓勵未來應該朝向給予他們更多支持的方向，畢竟農民、勞工都是比較辛苦的，應該給予更多的支持。在這樣的狀況下，請教部長，未來會朝向政府提供多一點點支持嗎？就是補貼多一點嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，從我們再去實際的了解，關於農民退休儲金，農民朋友在考慮的，特別是青農朋友在考慮的：第一個是他們的儲蓄習慣；第二個是他們儲蓄的相關能力，特別在青農的部分，他們進入、從事農業的資歷可能是在10年以下，到65歲還有很長一段時間，他們覺得不確定性滿高的，所以他們期待的是能夠降低他們的負擔。而委員提的版本我們也尊重，而且我們也會研議，我舉個例子，現在是100對100，未來是100對150，對於還沒有加入的人……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長的建議反倒是降低農民現在的負擔。"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的話，他的意願比較會提高。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，未來的變化還很多，但是降低他們的負擔，政府多協助、多提撥一點，然後農民提撥少一點，但總額其實是沒有改變……"],["陳部長駿季：對，總額不變，他們保障是不變的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣對他們的幫助會更大，也就是會朝這個方向來做？"],["陳部長駿季：對，會朝這個方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當年在討論勞工退休金的時候，剛好我也在勞委會服務，所以剛好參與其中，我也認為這其實是一個很好的制度，甚至很多人還會自己加碼提撥，所以我覺得這其實是一個好的制度面。也希望未來如果朝向部長說的這個方向，就是政府多提一點，然後農民少提一點，在未來給予他們更多的支持，一方面他們資金的調度會比較好一點，另一方面也給予他們未來退休後在生活上有更多的保障，我覺得這是一個好的方向，也請部長儘快把這個方案提出來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定什麼時候可以提出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們大概的方案，除了委員的版本我們會去分析以外，剛才我們提的這些概念，還有一個非常重要的部分，也是委員在關心的，就是有一些過去曾經從事勞工的，為了不放棄他的勞保，但是他又持續從事農業，這個部分目前是沒有辦法獲得保障的，我們也希望這個部分，看看能夠用什麼樣的機制，讓他們也能夠加入農民退休儲金。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是讓他能夠銜接進來，能夠整個來做支持。"],["陳部長駿季：能夠變成類似雙軌的概念。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得這個都是好的方向。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會整體的提出來……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是整體思考一下，因為農民跟勞工都是相對比較辛苦的，如果能夠給予他們多一點支持，我想大家都是有共識的。像過去他們有些思考點上，在轉軌的過程中，看看怎麼轉能夠轉得更順一點，就是給他們更多的支持，這個也請部長再多費心，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定什麼時候可以提出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的方案已經分析、研擬得差不多了，第一個，我們要先跟行政院做報告，因為所有的資金會有……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以下個會期進到立法院來，應該是可以的？"],["陳部長駿季：如果我們的方案獲得行政院同意的話，下個會期就會送進來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望下一會期儘速來完成。"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在第一階段就是要獲得行政院的支持跟同意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為行政院會有衡平的、整體的考量，要跟農民、勞工跟其他的這些來做衡平上的考量，所以應該會有一致性的思考。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們期待下個會期儘速來通過。","再請教一下，我看到部長也有在談論到農業金庫，農業金庫有將近一兆的金額，而大家也都很擔憂，部長，我們現在能不能完全掌控好農業金庫的運作？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，農業金庫現在的經營上，我們是用專業經理人，像現在的董事長就是一個專業的經理人，我們希望農業金庫是協助我們農業各項資金、金融的支持，還有對我們農會信用部有一些監管的部分，我們會更落實。在這樣的過程中，我們都希望有更好的措施，所以在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，農業部能不能精準地掌握住農業金庫？我知道很多人大概都想要精準地掌握農業金庫的狀況。"],["陳部長駿季：包括我們的公股、包括我們的獨立董事，我們是能夠具有主導權的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在主導權有幾席？"],["陳部長駿季：主導權的部分，我們應該有5席的獨董加6席的官股，共11席。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以15席裡面有11席是可以有主導權的，我還是要請部長注意一下，因為這涉及到國家整體利益和農民的權益，我覺得這個事情還是要由政府來主導，才會讓大家信任。"],["陳部長駿季：但是我們在主導過程中，也會讓農會來參與，所以15席裡面總共有9席是農漁會的代表，就是讓農漁會也能夠充分的表達意見，我們希望在政府主導的過程中，也能夠讓農會來參與。"],["賴委員瑞隆：提供意見，大家都沒有問題，我講的是主導權，因為畢竟官股還是有相當重要的影響，現在很多人提到持股1%以上就能夠獲得提名權，部長支持這樣的方案嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們基本上不希望用這樣的方式，最主要是當你有1%的時候，因為很多都是農會組成的，它就可以提一些董事，你也知道農會有定期的選舉，選舉裡面也有一些紛擾，所以很容易會被有心人操控，如果操控成功的話，我們的經營權就會轉移到這些農會手上，而且是特定的這些組織，相對的，對國家來講是一個災難。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我們看過太多民間企業怎麼樣被禿鷹給襲擊，導致失去了主導權，甚至導致更糟的情況，農業金庫對國家來說是很重要的，我希望就這一塊部長還是要緊守住由國家來主導這樣一個方向。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會堅持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為國家一定是以國家的利益、農民的利益為最大考量，但是如果變成是各個農會或者地方派系，那就不一定了，它的思考點就不見得是如此，我覺得這個部分一定要嚴格的把關，請部長要嚴守住這樣一個底線，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再請教一下，日本最近缺米，所以臺灣的米銷往日本其實是一個很好的機會，今年的1到4月，已經有5,136噸銷往日本，看這樣的比例，有可能今年有機會突破到1.5萬噸，有機會嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們初步的預估，至少可以到1萬噸。"],["賴委員瑞隆：1萬噸應該是一個低標，我看1到4月都已經達到一半了。"],["陳部長駿季：我們的低標是1萬噸，同時我們也在觀察，現在日本有釋出一些類似我們所謂公糧的儲米，但是不影響我們的輸出。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我希望朝1.5萬噸……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會朝這個目標努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還是要有更積極一點的目標，因為我覺得一方面是日本缺米，正是我們打進日本市場的好機會。另外一方面是就日本跟臺灣過去長期以來這樣的關係，而且我們米的品質也越來越好，加上我們米的量其實是足夠的，如果能趁這一次機會把我們優質、好的米輸出到日本。坦白講，如果它不缺米，你也沒有機會打進去，現在因為缺米，則這時候應該大力的打進去，讓臺灣的米能夠外銷到日本，如果形成了他們很認可臺灣的米而且也習慣了，這對臺灣的稻米也是一個很好的良性循環。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們不只是它缺米才打進去，我們是希望打進去以後是可以持續的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一定要留下來。"],["陳部長駿季：不僅要留下來，而且我們現在跟日本很多大型的通路商合作，當通路商走高端品牌的時候，就可以做市場區隔，讓我們的稻米持續的外銷。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望我們很多優質的稻米能夠打進去，因為日本的稻米非常好，很多人在日本時，都很喜歡吃日本的稻米，但是我希望趁這個機會把臺灣優質的稻米打進日本市場，而且是長遠的。我只是要講因為現在日本缺米，所以才有這個機會，如果不缺米，我們也不好打進去，在日本缺米而需求量大的時候，反倒我們應該趁這個時候把跟其他國家的區隔做出來，然後打進去日本市場，這個對於臺灣的稻米市場會有很大的幫助。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會朝1.5萬噸的目標來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：朝1.5萬噸來努力好不好？我覺得1萬噸太低標了，幾乎不用費什麼力，應該要設定高一點的目標，才能夠努力去達成，1.5萬噸這個目標照現在努力的方向應該也都可以達成，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。最後我請教一個問題，我們遠洋漁船收購的這個部分沒有問題吧？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，我們內部都已經處理了，現在在報院，然後我們也會跟行政院做一個很好的溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以會延長到116年82艘總經費達到28億5,000萬元？"],["陳部長駿季：82艘28.49億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：49億？"],["陳部長駿季：28.49億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：28.49億？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以會朝這個方向來前進。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們已經報院，然後我們會跟行政院做一個很好的溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，那請再跟院長來爭取，我也會跟院長拜託，因為這個對於整個產業提升競爭力是有幫助的。"],["陳部長駿季：好，這是絕對有幫助的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-15","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭國文","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","林俊憲","呂玉玲"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-28"],"gazette_id":"1145401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案；二、本院\n委員郭國文等17人擬具「農民退休儲金條例第七條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145401_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}