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各位同仁還有與會的官員 大家早安本席針對台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條建議將現行台灣人民擔任中共黨政軍職務執法環上限由原本的新台幣五十萬提升到"},{"start":16.954,"end":32.664,"text":"100萬元這是基於國安縣市與經濟現實的雙重考量本席樂見在陸委會的回函當中同意本席的修法方向那麼提高法則額度以嚇阻形塑融合假象營造統戰樣板的事態本席呢也將在實質討論的時候提出修正動議來"},{"start":40.307,"end":59.822,"text":"提議按次處罰以有效避免類似的案情發生其實我們都知道中共對台灣的滲透是更加精緻而且具有系統性透過區隔對待拉同打異手法來誘使台灣社會局部的進行軟化除了對產業跟地方進行點對點的吸納更刻意的透過統戰名目向特定的台灣人士來授予"},{"start":69.289,"end":77.133,"text":"全國政協委員、全國人民代表或是產業中心執行長等頭銜不僅形塑了兩岸一家親的政治錯覺更為中共對台進行宣傳操作提供了人證我們看到目前所裁定的罰金是在2003年的時候所制定了距離現在已經超過了20年"},{"start":94.822,"end":100.466,"text":"當年我們平均的人均GDP是一萬四千美元如今已經來到了三萬兩千美元社會整體的經濟結構物價水平與政治風險環境都已經不一樣了在實務上陸委會其實近期也查到了確實是有台灣民眾來擔任中共全國政協委員人大代表"},{"start":116.235,"end":120.957,"text":"甚至於產業中心執行長將的職位而這些職位所能調動的資源能量早已遠遠超於原條文所設計的想像再者我們看到在立法院當中也有委員不顧國安風險公然的帶團附中這些與中共官員把守言歡的場面這些行為對台灣社會所發出的錯誤訊息彷彿是向中國遞出了投名狀"},{"start":144.784,"end":163.873,"text":"所以對於本席現在所制定的條文希望在實質討論的時候能夠獲得在場所有朝野委員的支持我想這對於台灣來說只有立下這樣的一個案本案才能夠從制度面正本清源謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16722","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16722","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373ddd65533a85eaa9af6425655b8120616fa12e9ca99aa835c0303cb256d0e912735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-29T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-29T13:07:00+08:00","duration":16620,"影片長度":"04:37:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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國家科學集計事務委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該會第二幕國家災害防救科技中心發展計畫預算凍結200萬元書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2061.764,"end":2070.655,"text":"五 國家科學集體事務委員會 涵衛一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢証該會第三幕國家太空中心發展計畫預算凍結兩千萬元書面報告 請查詐案"},{"start":2074.113,"end":2098.592,"text":"六 國家科學及技術委員會函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該會第四幕財團法人國家實驗研究院發展計畫預算凍結五千萬元書面報告請查詐案七 國家科學及技術委員會函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該會第五幕財團法人國家同步輻射研究中心發展計畫預算凍結三百萬元書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2100.714,"end":2124.75,"text":"八 國家科學及技術委員會函 未依四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該會第六幕會營業特種基金預算凍結五千萬元書面報告請查詐案九 國家科學及技術委員會函 未依四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送新竹科學園區管理局大陸地區旅費預算凍結二十八萬元書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2126.917,"end":2149.461,"text":"十 國家科學及技術委員會函 為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送新竹科學園區管理局第一幕園區實驗中學教學與訓輔輔助預算凍結一百萬元書面報告請查詐案國家科學及技術委員會函 為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送新竹科學園區管理局第四幕園區業務發展預算凍結一百萬元書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2153.402,"end":2177.98,"text":"十二 國家科學及技術委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送中部科學園區管理局大陸地區旅會預算凍結二十二萬八千元書面報告請查詐案十三 國家科學及技術委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送中部科學園區管理局第一幕園區實驗中學教學及訓輔輔助預算凍結一百萬元書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2178.786,"end":2205.596,"text":"十四 國家科學及技術委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送中部科學園區管理局第四幕園區業務發展預算凍結一百萬元書面報告請查詐案十五 國家科學及技術委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送南部科學園區管理局大陸地區旅會凍結十萬七千元書面報告請查詐案十六 國家科學及技術委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":2206.876,"end":2225.722,"text":"檢送南部科學園區管理局第一幕園區實驗中學教學與訓輔輔助預算凍結100萬年書面報告請查詐案17 國家科學及技術委員會函為14年度中央政府總預算決議檢送南部科學園區管理局第4幕園區業務推展預算凍結100萬年書面報告請查詐案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2230.899,"end":2254.619,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在委員人數已達三位以上那想請問各位委員關於上一次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有的話我們議事錄就確認那也關於這個預算解凍的書面報告案共17案剛才宣讀完畢在場委員有無意見"},{"start":2257.666,"end":2286.152,"text":"那我想我們剛剛的這17案也都可以看到我們委員會其實是非常支持我們的國客會相關的這個凍結也都這個數字也都有充分的討論那金額也都在一個還可以討論的範圍之內那待會也許我們還是有委員會針對幾個議題還會在質詢的過程當中提出討論但是這17案我們目前的委員是沒有提出意見"},{"start":2286.852,"end":2310.224,"text":"那所以我想我們就決定均準與動之提報院會那我們現在請國科會吳主委進行報告時間八分鐘主席各位委員先進大家好成門大院安排解凍報告"},{"start":2311.787,"end":2332.182,"text":"很榮幸列席貴委員會說明,感謝各位委員支持我國科技發展,讓國科會業務能順利推動。科技產業為台灣對外貿易的核心,國科會積極引導發展前瞻科技,促成研發成果的落地應用。"},{"start":2333.68,"end":2348.38,"text":"推动百工百业创新转型并配合政府整体战略于变局中寻找解方仅就当前科技施政说明如后首先布局前瞻科技强化科技国力"},{"start":2350.384,"end":2370.739,"text":"114年到117年,国家科学技术发展计划已经提报行政院作为引领科技创新,跨部会推动国家希望工程的中长程方向,其中就据战略价值的半导体领域提倡优势延续,国际拓展。"},{"start":2371.966,"end":2393.161,"text":"應用創新永續調適的國家政策在太空領域國家發射場域位置已選定於屏東縣滿洲鄉未來將導入原民科技教育及觀光元素與地方共融共好同時AI新科技智慧機器人計畫"},{"start":2394.687,"end":2408.285,"text":"已獲行政院院會通過,後續將跨部會擬定智慧機器人產業推動方案,並扣合大南方新氣股政策,帶動智慧機器人研發、製造及新創等產業發展。"},{"start":2410.472,"end":2437.813,"text":"第二,鼓勵學員與實務接軌,培育重點領域人才,全力營造自由的研發環境,積極鼓勵學員落實應用導向的研究,將成果貢獻社會,同時透過多元場合與各領域學者進行理念宣導,並致力調整計畫審查思維,引導科研成果落地應用。"},{"start":2439.028,"end":2456.667,"text":"人才扎根与培育是国家长期发展的关键。国科会持续厚职AI及资安等领域人才,例如今年的寻找资安女爵师,共有4000多位女同学参赛,展现出在AI、机器人、数学等跨领域的创意。"},{"start":2457.728,"end":2472.52,"text":"此外,掌握全球局勢,適時調整國際合作策略,加速落實與美、德、法及加拿大等雙邊協定,強化在重點領域的合作,並持續推動官方高層互訪,發揮台灣科研國際影響力。"},{"start":2476.443,"end":2499.857,"text":"第三,創造科研社會價值,邁向創新與均衡的台灣在運動科技、智慧醫療、高齡長照等領域已有具體成果,並逐步推展至產業應用在創新創業方面,積極導入優秀AI新創及資金來台以業界需求引導技術媒合,帶動產業升級"},{"start":2503.242,"end":2527.671,"text":"2024年科學園區營業額也達到了4.7兆元的新高峰精進技術及亮眼產能已成為全球高科技聚落的典範此外,支持台積電等半導體供應鏈廠商進駐屏東科學園區將先進技術跟流台灣落實到南方新矽谷逐步實現均衡台灣願景"},{"start":2529.434,"end":2545.206,"text":"第四,解冻案部分,114年国科会预算冻结案共计22案包含书面报告17案及专案报告5案,完整报告资料已函送大院以下警卫委员关心重点报告。"},{"start":2546.311,"end":2562.701,"text":"一般行政商案本會以增訂計畫主持人違反性平法規之查組規範,並與教育部會商通報機制,同時完成職場霸凌申訴機制,並辦理教育訓練。此外,勞務承攬費依規定編列,辦公設備則依使用狀況逐年開放。"},{"start":2567.854,"end":2586.514,"text":"國家災害防救科技中心兩岸災防中心重整各項災害情資落實相關情資的研判與應用協助中央與地方共同推動防災、減災、應變與復原重建等工作國家太空中心兩岸"},{"start":2587.813,"end":2604.36,"text":"太空計畫三期已完成修正將持續推動入軌火箭、低軌通訊衛星以及國家發射場域建置以壯大我國太空產業與培育人才國家實驗研究院發展計畫一案"},{"start":2605.66,"end":2634.689,"text":"国研院持续精进人才延展与留任建立反霸凌与性别平等的职场环境国家同步辐射研究中心发展计划一案国府中心将加速TPS及其光速线设施建置并链接国际官员盟友强化我国研发环境与竞争优势科发基金一案本会推动技专校院实务型研究专案计划"},{"start":2635.748,"end":2652.063,"text":"整合跨領域資源至今年度起納入私立大學鼓勵其發展應用與實務研究同時持續推動運動科技與人文結合督促執行機構確實遵守人體研究法和相關規範確保研究計畫妥善執行"},{"start":2655.973,"end":2675.519,"text":"足中南科管理局共計十二案,其中業務費共三案作為支應基本行政作業,提供單一窗口服務,推動人才培育,促進勞資關係,強化治安及污染防治等支出,相關預算均遵截編列。"},{"start":2676.619,"end":2682.706,"text":"大陸地區旅費共商案,用於參與世界科學園區學會,該學會有78個國家,近350個會員,透過交流學習他國園區治理經驗,同時展現台灣科學園區軟實力。"},{"start":2694.86,"end":2718.773,"text":"園區時鐘教學與訓輔共商案將持續檢討招生策略推展教學計畫保障學生受教權益園區業務推展共商案以強化投資環境加速園區擴建進度提升溫室氣體減量成效精進管理費查核提供園區從業人員優質就業環境"},{"start":2721.835,"end":2730.425,"text":"以上相關經費均為推動我國科技發展提升國家競爭力敬請委員鼎力支持同意動資預算謝謝"},{"start":2737.552,"end":2747.464,"text":"好 謝謝吳主委口頭報告我們現在進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為10點30分"},{"start":2753.271,"end":2776.171,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分以前提出並於本會委員葉元之委員質詢結束以後進行解凍專案報告案及臨時提案處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":2782.338,"end":2782.638,"text":"郭文贵先生"},{"start":2804.629,"end":2831.913,"text":"就是当初国科会也针对这个部分呢也做出了一些的说明所以我现在要问你你应该的说法也是一样那我们现在来看一下这个江博士说实在他是博士没有错他只是在这个博士的这个专业这个major的部分里面大家其实有不同的一个看法我们来看下一个其实你调出这个国科会的个人人才的这个资料表当中其实他跟国科会的相会其实不太多大概只有他当新晋人"},{"start":2832.213,"end":2860.356,"text":"人员研究的时候有获得因为我们通常只看计划主持人因为计划主持人最重要共同主持人通常有时候是挂了好多人但是以计划主持人来说他其他两个都是申请你们的学术会议这不算所以以计划来说的话他当初学门代表是用民事法这是他目前为止跟国科会也是在法的这个层面当中是比较有关的但是呢之后他确实用这个这个我们确实用这个"},{"start":2860.996,"end":2881.233,"text":"大学里面呢他确实是PhD in Law这个部分而且呢他在你看他是2014年获得国客会这个一项补助就这么久了就获得这么一项补助以法的观点来看然后在2022年经过大概经过了八年的时间有人在跟国客会来做一个检举表示呢这八年来"},{"start":2881.874,"end":2910.064,"text":"他所看载的这个所谓的学门专门的这个部分里面来说是引起很大的质疑的所以也来看我们来看下面所以说呢这个刘静怡的这个当时的法律的召委他当然就会提出质疑而且他们是七人全诉通过要送学轮但是学轮呢大概有一票之差然后呢就没有所以说呢为什么这两个差距这么大我想主委就你的理解到底是为什么两个单位为什么对于这样的一个认定差距这么大"},{"start":2912.663,"end":2935.035,"text":"報告委員這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的細節但是就同仁跟我報告的資料當初他是在國科會在申請計畫的時候他寫了自己的資料就好像說所有人都會有填自己的履歷沒錯履歷他怎麼填"},{"start":2936.395,"end":2963.286,"text":"我们也很奇怪明明是这样子社会科学院毕业的为什么硬要说自己是法学院这个部分其实也是目前为止大家认为在integrity这个部分里面是受到很大的质疑而且是国科会去函希望能够把他这个部分匡正完之后他才做修正这经过时间经过非常长的时间所以我说不是博士学问的问题而是他的integrity的问题那这个问题其实你说大其实也很大"},{"start":2963.686,"end":2963.987,"text":"因为这个细节"},{"start":2976.931,"end":2988.698,"text":"我並不是很清楚,但是我知道當初的確有進到學術輪那學輪會告訴你,因為他有念過法,所以他可以寫法學這也沒什麼不好啊,你贊同這樣的說法嗎?有進到學術輪理委員會討論,那討論就是依照程序討論完大家委員,委員就是要去表決那時候委員認為有瑕疵,但是還不至於到"},{"start":3000.725,"end":3021.141,"text":"所以你还是能够重复这个学者说我觉得这就是integrative问题这是一个观感的问题我们没有质疑他的博士学位但是对于他是号称自己是法学博士其实而且这么久以来如果没有被纠正的话其实他就会用这样的学位一直到底这也就是大家会认为你看全部都是用法学博士这样的概念"},{"start":3022.001,"end":3043.129,"text":"問題是所以當初我們的確有要求他一定要要求做匡證可是你看看你們國科會的網站我們回到第一頁你國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下啊部長你們國科會只要就媒體的報導你們做出說明就好你大可不用在你們網站裡面對於他自己個人的說法認為科技部判定他還他公道這句話不用登在你們的網站當中這是他個人的說法這一副"},{"start":3043.749,"end":3063.755,"text":"要是我來說,國科會要求我去框證,我不覺得這還我公道,我覺得我有疏失,我怎麼可能說是公道所以你就爭據國科網站,爭據你們的說明,做好說明就好,不用框上這個所謂的利益關係人自己的說法我覺得這是未來給國科會的一個說法,並沒有還他公道,國科會只是做出你們該有的一個解釋而已"},{"start":3064.395,"end":3088.489,"text":"我们应该就是照实解释就好本来就是嘛而且我也不能理解他的动机到底在哪里我觉得当时一个社科院的博士也蛮好的为什么一直要说自己是法学博士法学博士难道会比社科博士来的地位高一点吗这我们完全不可以我想在场很多人的儿子特别是学社会科学学门的部分不过这绝对是一个瑕疵以至于当他被派人的时候很多人所以主委你也不赞成"},{"start":3089.289,"end":3113.492,"text":"學位裡面你不是學位該怎麼樣就該怎麼樣你也不贊成去框一個不是屬於他的這個學碗這也是無庸置疑的吧不過我們現在在國科會各個學門的計畫申請不見得都是原學門的教授因為現在很多跨領域的研究我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門你可以看我自己的我就框一個對我自己有利的這是我的好不好"},{"start":3113.752,"end":3132.208,"text":"我也拿到国科会非常多的计划从到教育学门科学教育师范教育等等但是我们会框个对我们有利的一个学门嘛对但是不应该你拿到一个国科会当初你自己的一个部分你就框成自己是一个法律博士我觉得这个东西对大部分来说这是真的是有违反学术理念这个层面"},{"start":3132.568,"end":3148.791,"text":"好那接下来我们要把事情把它理定清楚我们来看看你们的基本的这个费用来说你们基本行政的特别费当中你们是被冻结了一七一百一十九万嘛对不对一百一十七万九但是呢组委我还是要特别澄清一下"},{"start":3149.822,"end":3165.758,"text":"凍結的部分國科會整體來講有1億8千萬喔我知道但是我要你的說法你說因為財化法的關係照比例調整你們被減了200億這不是因為財化法是另外一回事我說今年我們被凍結的部分"},{"start":3166.198,"end":3172.606,"text":"我知道 可是你的發言是在這裡啊 我是問你新聞的說法你真的是國科會有被裁劃法的方法 你們真的有被影響嗎這大標題寫在這個地方啊裁劃法還沒有明年才上路行政院目前解釋那你幹嘛去跟人家講說因為這個關係你們受到200億的影響我想只問今年嘛 今年有受到影響嗎"},{"start":3186.002,"end":3193.108,"text":"當時媒體問的是財化法的影響當然這是明年如果財化法修正案你這邊是寫國科會111年度的預算210受到影響不利台灣科學發展主委 說話必須要憑證據我說話我不是講今年我絕對沒有講財化法修正案會影響今年那你就去公正一下你這邊寫國科會114年的預算好不好你這邊是你們的預算你的發布日期是這樣寫的"},{"start":3212.99,"end":3222.702,"text":"是明年啦那你就寫錯了嘛你要不要更正一下明年會不會受到影響我們也不知道你這樣完全就是被大家在陷入這樣的一個方式然後呢重點是你們未來來說報告委員這可能是誤會啦等一下我還有你可以等下一併回答還有特別"},{"start":3229.691,"end":3233.313,"text":"你現在目前為止我們要開始編列明年的預算然後你們告訴我們說科技非常的重要然後呢你們可能在115年7月確定8月要編預算書你目前為止在增加預算當中將要編列1800億元你認為目前為止你有收到任何的通知說這1800億元會受到影響嗎"},{"start":3250.031,"end":3265.809,"text":"我們行政院已經就這個財化法修正案通過以後必須要重新調備各部門的你認為目前為止你有感受到1800億收到影響嗎你有收到這樣的一個訊息嗎然後呢你說財化法上路會是一個災難然後你目前有收到任何的影響嗎你要預估嗎"},{"start":3267.53,"end":3281.585,"text":"報告委員的確有受到影響我現在只問你 你有感受到1800億目前有被要求說這個經費要受到調整嗎 有沒有有然後要調整多少要調整至少要減200億這樣"},{"start":3283.96,"end":3299.263,"text":"我只是告诉你啊目前来说那我们就看看你今年七月所编制的预算我只能说我们也同意赞成科研人力各方面都非常的重要但是呢如果目前为止尚未发生还在编制预算请你就好好跟你们的科证委员报告"},{"start":3299.724,"end":3327.757,"text":"好好的守住这个部分但是我对于还没有发生特别是114年这部分你们这样的说法然后呢又一直到好像这个时候又一直到是蓝白乱砍预算以至于研发这样我们的部分有受到影响这样的一个推论我个人是非常有意见我觉得有多少的事情就要讲多少的话这是很重要我让我那个赵伟让我这样很快就把它讲完然后呢有关业务费冻结30里面有关科学园区人才的这个培育当中呢我还是要直指啊"},{"start":3328.797,"end":3336.719,"text":"被凍結的這三十我們等一下會來一一來做但是你看到你們這個園區的培育人才2016年是五千四但是呢到2024年的時候你們是降到兩千八所以人才呢人數越來越低還有呢更不要講說我們所提到的招生一併等一下我們會在解讀的時候一併來說明你們招生比例來說特別是南科的部分來說說實在的效果也不是非常的好但是你們在報告的部分裡面你們是給我兩句話"},{"start":3358.066,"end":3375.922,"text":"就給我解決了這點是讓本席覺得非常不滿意的相對竹科相對中科南科時鐘的報告這個部分來告訴你就要這樣解凍我覺得持續改善策略這個以科學出身的主委來說你可能也不太會接受最後我還是要提到的有很多的時候再往下這都等一下"},{"start":3377.903,"end":3395.618,"text":"提供你来做一个参考虽然说你在很多业务费基本的工作还有资讯管理的部分里面你都告诉我们你们被冻结但是呢我们的经费比过去还要多而且最重要的是国会每年都有剩余所以我只能说我们会用很多的方法来协助大家做业务的一个发展但是呢"},{"start":3396.038,"end":3402.182,"text":"你不能無限的告訴我們就說因為這個東西沒有辦法然後給你這麼多的經費而且事實證明你們在決算的時候都有剩餘的狀況我個人認為到目前為止應該在維持基本的行政工作來說資訊管理上面應該是問題不大"},{"start":3412.108,"end":3438.173,"text":"包括委員因為業務會是在行政事務上面我們在特別是在南科現在大幅的擴充因為委員也知道說我們在高雄兩大名廠現在如火如荼但是主委南科的部分擴充我們絕對會給予大力的支持但是呢如果你這些經費不夠的話我們可以用很多追加或很多的方式來說但是我只是告訴你以目前為止我們所看到的訊息你所剩餘的目前來說"},{"start":3439.873,"end":3453.645,"text":"在我們解凍之前說實在的在很多業務的推行上面應該還是可以的不過當初這個立法院的決議是不能流用其他經費我們的組織是管得非常嚴格所以業務費還是要拜託我們等一下但是我們就從數據來告訴"},{"start":3461.951,"end":3481.998,"text":"告訴我們的主委特別是你們線上申請服務我都還不要講真的 線上申請的服務介紹這也是你的理由但是你的理由裡面告訴我們你們服務的這個案數是完全是往下降的我只是用數據來告訴你在下次再給我們寫解凍報告的時候可能要提出更好的一個數據我們就要有辦法依這個報告來幫你們做這樣一個處理 好不好謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝柯志恩委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":3498.083,"end":3499.865,"text":"謝謝主席 我請國科會吳主委有請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":3505.864,"end":3529.144,"text":"主委好你知道我一直非常關心我們太空中心還有太空三期計畫的預算所以剛剛前面有提到說解凍去年的凍結預算跟刪除預算對我們國科會整體的計畫造成的影響其中有一點我想要特別提醒你們因為我看到太空中心在去年被凍結了一筆五百萬"},{"start":3530.425,"end":3533.468,"text":"上面凍結的理由是說你們在113年太空中心的預算原額是486人但是去年還有50個名額是缺額的就是這個缺額未滿沒有把它補滿所以你們因此被凍結了500萬我想請問一下去年的這個50個名額我們在什麼時候把它補滿了"},{"start":3555.954,"end":3580.505,"text":"我們已經補滿了,2月已經很快的補滿了在去年底,你們今天的報告寫說113年12月,去年的原額就已經補滿了是不是這個樣子?今年2月補滿了今年2月補滿了,這是去年的原額然後今年還要再新增我們還要新增,因為我們一直在擴充我們的業務,所以還在新增"},{"start":3581.445,"end":3597.64,"text":"所以這一點我希望你們要特別的注意因為大家都很支持你們的預算不要因為這樣子被凍結了反而造成使用上面之行會有一些影響那麼大家國人最關心的就是我們太空三期了"},{"start":3598.4,"end":3601.502,"text":"這個主委應該也記得我從去年進到立法院以來在委員會跟國科會關心我在總質詢的時候也跟院長關心那我知道最近我們賴清德總統也造訪了太空中心因為我們的福衛八號有一個即將就要來進行啟運跟發射所以這個大家都很期待啦這個福衛八號的發射是我們太空計畫的下一個里程碑那太空三期喔"},{"start":3626.716,"end":3631.099,"text":"要這個原先在2019年的時候我們訂的預算是251億到2023年的時候當時小英總統造訪就喊出說我們太空三級要加碼當時喊出要加碼達到400億"},{"start":3641.886,"end":3649.375,"text":"那我知道我們國科會其實做了很多的努力跟計畫的準備已經送進行政院了嘛接下來就是等院來審核通過我要問主委你對我們太空三型計畫的預算加碼超過400億你有沒有信心啊"},{"start":3661.949,"end":3667.514,"text":"我有信心但是需要我們大院來支持超過400億我們有信心啊是好我們非常的期待因為我想沉入你們今天的報告我們看到了在產值的部分讓我非常的非常的覺得很值得我們肯定說太空產業呢台灣去年的產值就達到了2773億"},{"start":3687.811,"end":3697.939,"text":"是整體產業喔然後呢其中我們在地面製造的部分台灣的廠商的地面製造的產值是達到了也是超過2000億2464億最重要的是它的成長率我剛剛前面講到成長率都是超過10%那你們的報告裡面告訴我們說這一個成長的幅度是大於全球市場的成長幅度所以"},{"start":3716.112,"end":3717.513,"text":"你們國科會預估我們台灣的太空產業在今年跟明年的產值都會持續提升主委能不能告訴我們你們是怎麼樣來依據什麼來預估的那台灣的成長幅度為什麼比其他國家來得高呢"},{"start":3731.92,"end":3755.243,"text":"目前太空中心的策略,我們現在改了,就是不是只有政府要發射衛星,我們要跟國際合作,國際合作就是造成一個我們台灣的供應鏈,一個很大的商機,那不是只有衛星本體跟它的這個籌載,還有地面站,還有那個使用者終端的設備,這個量非常的大,所以台灣的廠商很有興趣,我們已經組成幾乎就是國家隊了,"},{"start":3756.004,"end":3785.371,"text":"那其實我們去年整年的這個產值的提升國產的這些供應鏈的這個產值提升已經成長了超過100%那我估計今年還會再持續成長而且會有蠻亮眼的成績好 所以我們已經有政府跟民間一起協力的太空國家隊好 非常期待那我想等太空三期計畫出來之後我們再來進行審視跟討論接下來也是很重要的是我們的算力部件"},{"start":3785.771,"end":3791.152,"text":"之前也跟主委質詢過我們在台灣在AI時代的基礎計劃目前國科會我們自由的有精創計劃跟大南方計劃那也有民間的算力資源在你們解凍報告當中有提到政威集團然後想要AI算力中心揮達的台北萬主機等等就在前幾天5月19號黃仁勛在Computex的演說中他提到"},{"start":3813.298,"end":3828.744,"text":"輝達將與國科會台積電以及鴻海四方合作共同打造台灣的AI基礎設施國科會也有公開回應說這個是雙方正在規劃當中事實的會來對外說明所以我請教主委已經見面討論過了已經初步討論過那細節我們後續會有初步討論過那這個事實公佈啊有沒有機會是在下半年"},{"start":3841.875,"end":3856.904,"text":"今年第一期大概鴻海就會開始建置第一期那預計第一期劉洋偉董事長也公開的講大概就是200MW這樣的目標那後續還有兩期包含"},{"start":3864.028,"end":3892.064,"text":"包含第二期跟第三期大概都會到40MW那這一部分不是只有鴻海跟輝達他們的合作還包含台積電跟國科會國科會在科研部分科技產業推動我們在各行各業要發展AI應用的產業這個我們也都會除了我們自己建的算力之外還會使用到民間"},{"start":3893.004,"end":3917.523,"text":"投資的這個算力讓台灣的這個力量更為強大是跟民間的合作很重要那我們國科會的自由算力也很重要所以我最後還是想要請教主委因為之前有問過你們我們的金創方案還有大南方方案金創是在台中中埔對不對那大南方會是在台南沙崙我們目前的規劃是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":3918.584,"end":3935.066,"text":"我們的算力早期都是偏中在北部,最主要的基地就是新竹科學園區國防中心的總部後來我們在台灣三建制的時候就在台中建制資料中心高速電腦"},{"start":3936.047,"end":3952.298,"text":"那賴總統在均衡台灣的這個理念之下我們也希望在南部有足夠的這個這個算力的建置那當然所有的這個資料中心算力的建置都是服務全國的絕對不是一定是服務當地而已啦那可是培養人才"},{"start":3953.118,"end":3976.966,"text":"因為算力中心建置以後要有很多的人才進來要做營運要做服務所以要均衡南北我們現在就是把最近這一期的算力就放在南部那除了台南之外剛剛講高雄非常大的算力是民間投資國科會也會跟他們合作那這個全部都是服務全國的"},{"start":3977.831,"end":3996.118,"text":"我想算力的基礎建設可以說新一代國家的十大建設之一了也非常的重要影響到了產業人力人才培育相關的發展等等所以希望我們國科會跟民間合作我們自己的自由算力也要持續的來提升是好謝謝主委謝謝吳佩奕委員質詢官員請回座好接下來我們有請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":4010.404,"end":4011.386,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝關委員好"},{"start":4019.875,"end":4048.917,"text":"好 主委長那最近我們其實看到台中火力發電廠九組發電機組火力全開那同時呢高雄的大林電廠還有興達電廠也默默加開了三號跟四號兩部燃煤機組那這一陣子其實大家都在關心這個空氣品質那不曉得主委有沒有注意我們覺得台灣最近空氣品質怎麼樣根據我們環境部公布的資料我記得品質並沒有變差"},{"start":4050.246,"end":4060.643,"text":"品質並沒有變差您個人也是這樣的感覺我自己我的鼻子其實沒有辦法乾什麼我鼻子感覺不出來"},{"start":4062.554,"end":4086.746,"text":"你的鼻子感覺不出來 好 這個關於您個人身體狀況的問題我就不予置評了但是呢 國科會的空氣品質感測器竟然意外地加劇了空汙那這個呢 你鼻子感覺不出來 但你一定知道這件事4月14號 陽明山國家公園小油坑發生了火燒山的意外"},{"start":4087.846,"end":4101.523,"text":"這個火勢燃燒將近50公頃起火原因疑似是由國營業國網中心的這個空氣品質感測器的離電池引起的那主委也非常的重視也親自到了現場去了解"},{"start":4103.966,"end":4126.207,"text":"後續我的了解主委更有對全台各地16支內建離電池的空氣品質感測器把它全拆了所以除了這個之外我們現在還有沒有其他有風險的科研設備在不曉得你到現場去看過以後的情況跟現在後續處理是怎麼樣報告委員"},{"start":4127.952,"end":4146.988,"text":"那時候媒體報導大概有50公頃其實是因為煙霧瀰漫後來我們陽明山國家公園管理處已經鑑定完畢大概大約在4.5公頃我也親自去看過那邊就是芒草跟建築所以主委這次可能就分兩個我們來看如果說燃燒的是4點多公頃那你煙霧瀰漫50公頃這就是一個污染當時可是那煙霧有些是"},{"start":4154.874,"end":4174.432,"text":"掺杂那个小油坑本来就好我们回到正题来所以你有没有再去看其他这些有风险的科研设备有我们都已经清查了所有的国会学校我们国研院所有的这个监测的设备我们并不是说全部都要拆除了而是把有风险的"},{"start":4175.794,"end":4197.474,"text":"安全的我們還是會繼續做,因為不只是科研,我們提供很重要的監測數據主委,我想您自己剛剛也有講,其實我們在國科會轄下會有很多科研相關的設備恐怕也有一些,因為我不知道在什麼地方,恐怕也有一些在公共的場域都會有一些我們這次看到的疑似的潛在安全風險"},{"start":4198.615,"end":4221.182,"text":"如果這一次是火燒山那如果我們有些科研設備是在人口稠密的地方那我覺得啦萬一發生了什麼樣的狀況的時候那還要造成人員傷亡那真的非常嚴重那所以除了剛才您所說的我們先去了解我們現在哪些地方有這些科研設備整個盤點一次那同時我們有沒有去建立科研設備的風險管理還有一些監測相關機制"},{"start":4223.183,"end":4239.657,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我們的確有了這次的教訓,我們的確已經做了比較安全的作業規範。這個作業規範也不是只有我們國研院裡面的各個單位,而是跟我們合作的一些廠商,我們也同步會規範。"},{"start":4240.458,"end":4265.933,"text":"很好所以除了風險控管機制之外我想我們這個國科會作為全國科學技術發展的主管機關針對有安全風險的科研設備你要去做這個即時監控跟通報異常的功能我覺得應該是不難而且應該是很快可以做好來所以你這個整個盤點加上剛剛所說的要把這些機制建立起來你需要多久的時間"},{"start":4267.148,"end":4275.616,"text":"我們已經建立起來了完整了嗎?已經完整了那會後可不可以給我們一個完整的報告讓我們更放心好不好好 那接下來我想也是要稱讚一下國科會在上週被輝達執行長黃仁勛點名要一起和台積電與鴻海合作為台灣打造AI基礎建設這可以說是對國科會的一個肯定啦但是我們當然也要提醒說你看"},{"start":4289.028,"end":4309.261,"text":"如果連這個黃仁勳都這麼肯定將來我們還有這麼多的事情要做所以剛剛所說的風險控管就要更小心一些了所以剛才我們又說到這個輝達執行長我們也知道其實黃仁勳旋風一直都在那不管他逛夜市不管他去哪家餐廳參加視狀運都可以引起這個全國矚目也是媒體追逐的焦點"},{"start":4310.422,"end":4328.47,"text":"那所以呢他在這個北流的演講當中去宣布說回答台灣總部要落腳在台北的北投士林科技園區那這件事情在之前那個主委這邊有沒有相當的掌握跟了解他自己宣布之前他其實並沒有透露"},{"start":4329.372,"end":4358.26,"text":"手口如瓶好那其實我相信包括本席的選區桃園我們都一定會想要積極來爭取可是我們看到像輝達這樣的一個科技巨頭在選址的時候他應該有很多的考量包括人才供電還有產業聚落等等這也凸顯一個核心的問題就是未來台灣要在全球AI與高科技的浪潮當中保持競爭力科學園區的前瞻規劃還有土地整備絕對是非常重要的這一點主委同意嗎"},{"start":4359.661,"end":4384.355,"text":"所以国科会也正在规划要增建科学园区的土地面积上个礼拜在5月21号的时候环境部召开了新设科学园区政策评估说明专案小组的会议当时国科会以厂商要跟流台湾来做一个修正的原因也提出了要增加科学园区的用地那这个目标是在2050年新设3000公顷的科学园区用地对吗"},{"start":4385.279,"end":4402.605,"text":"是 我們的確提出這樣但是據本席了解這個面積比原來說要增設1000公頃大幅增加了就是說我們的目標值大幅增加了三倍之多可是我們又看到截至今年5月我們台灣目前在營運中的科學園區面積是4472公頃如果加上開發或者開發中或者規劃中869公頃那合計總共是5341公頃"},{"start":4412.068,"end":4424.152,"text":"我們現在說要再增加3000公頃等於是增加全台灣現在現有科學面積的56%是這麼大的量所以我想要請教一下主委我們現在我們講出來這3000公頃的開發規劃是如何推估產業需求的"},{"start":4429.688,"end":4457.117,"text":"報告委員剛剛講三千公頃就是加上目前一千公頃再加兩千那其實我們未來的這個需求台積電依照我們的人力土地水電等資源的推估大概還需要再一千公頃那為什麼要提兩千公頃原因是因為我接任以後我其實是希望我們發展未來的園區是要把產業跟生態跟社區"},{"start":4458.217,"end":4479.969,"text":"要把它融合在一起弄成一個比較低度開發的這種優質的這個園區我們的確是要保護生態如果我們園區裡面只是產業而已那生態就是在園區外面我們讓它置身置面的話反而對於我們濱林絕種的生物"},{"start":4480.789,"end":4506.708,"text":"會有更大的這個如果你說的這個部分我想本席十分的認同其實本來也就是要提醒這其實您剛剛所說的部分是重要的那您既然已經注意到了我覺得在將來的規劃跟落實的執行各方面我覺得要更細緻一點因為你看你現在說的原本的一千加兩千總之要增加三千公頃這個面積是非常大這似乎就像本席的選區桃園區差不多的大小"},{"start":4507.268,"end":4525.355,"text":"也差不多就是我們竹科將近4.6倍大所以您剛所說的部分我想科研AI的發展尤其是我想我們自己的召委其實葛如君委員其實在這方面也是非常的支持的所以我想面對這麼大面積的土地開發的規劃就像您剛所說的那一些些您剛所提出的每一項都應該要審慎的評估"},{"start":4532.218,"end":4539.324,"text":"可是比較可惜的是到目前為止我在國科會的科學園區政策評估說明書裡面我覺得還沒有看到太多太細的說明跟評估我是希望能不能盡快的把它送出來給我們看因為在上一週專案小組會議之後本席看到媒體有很多的環評委員認為國科會的說明書叫做寫得蠻糟的問題蠻多的尤其針對"},{"start":4558.599,"end":4574.368,"text":"廢信物處理還有用水用電都沒有辦法說明完整那更遑論剛才主委所說的這麼遠大的目標要做一個整體的開發跟保護所以是不是啊這裡因為今天時間也到了能不能請國客會會後用書面來補充說明多久可以送上來兩個月內可以兩個月內不會太久嗎因為現在還有委員在提意見所以我們會依照委員的意見"},{"start":4586.429,"end":4596.341,"text":"讓委員可以放心的狀況之下我們調整完一定會送給萬委員好 那我想叫委員會其實我們所有的委員都要了解好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座"},{"start":4616.621,"end":4617.542,"text":"請葛委員質詢好謝謝代理主席我們有請吳承文主委請主委"},{"start":4642.231,"end":4659.78,"text":"昨天三三會的林董說這個普天之下最大的笑話是有人說我們台灣沒有缺電但是會停電那他同時也說要發展AI不能沒有核電沒有核電不行主委你怎麼看他這個說法支持嗎"},{"start":4663.41,"end":4680.067,"text":"我並不認為沒有核電不行但是我們當然需要能源各種各樣的能源我們都會去探討所以這個產業界覺得沒有核電不行但是主委您的意思就是可以沒有核電我們還是可以發展AI跟全天下的想法都不一樣對不對"},{"start":4681.277,"end":4697.546,"text":"你知道現在全世界為了發展AI都在蓋核電嗎?你知道嗎?並不是每個國家都在發展啦所以你是說哥倫比亞共和國沒有就是沒有嗎?不是這樣講吧主要的發展AI的國家"},{"start":4699.605,"end":4723.398,"text":"主要發展業的國家一定都是多元的能源都會探討我們也不是說核電不能探討我們也是在探討當中所以我想不排除核能嘛對不對不排除只要符合安全還有這個核廢料處理這個不用複述了我們都知道這個賴清德三原則啦謝謝主委那我還是要鼓勵說國科會"},{"start":4724.498,"end":4743.148,"text":"黃仁勛在演講當中也確實有說要蓋這個AI基礎設施那為什麼一開始我剛剛一來就有點這個希望主委能夠表達您的意見是因為很多人真的是覺得沒有電就沒有AI啦那黃仁勛也講了台灣絕對要投資核能"},{"start":4744.128,"end":4759.041,"text":"那他又說絕對要投資核能啊那您的看法認不認同他這句話台灣絕對要投資核能認同嗎大家都可以表達意見我們台灣現在還是一個所以你認不認同對不起我只想要問你認不認同我認同賴總統講的哇主委我是覺得您一個專業的科學的政務官到這裡"},{"start":4768.442,"end":4795.81,"text":"我覺得對於一個科學的論述您都還是要選擇性的來閃避 逃避我沒有閃避 報告委員我還是覺得非常可惜啊報告委員黃仁勳的說法好 不過沒有關係報告委員 賴總統是明確表達是可以討論喔讓我們科學的政治對嘛 那其實是有共識的為什麼你不能說也不反對黃仁勳的說法啊現在 現在 報告委員黃仁勳只是說絕對要投資核能啊這有問題嗎"},{"start":4797.642,"end":4823.915,"text":"好 沒有關係啦 這個使用核能真的不應該被汙名化黃蘭胥也是這樣講 所以我想大家真的不要害怕那我們也其實看到啦 其實你自己就講了其實真的不需要去這個一定說只能支持誰的說法好不好不是說講到核電就只能支持賴總統的說法你可以支持你自己的說法 那你支不支持你自己的說法"},{"start":4824.675,"end":4853.382,"text":"專家應該要回來研究新核能技術 支持吧當然支持可以支持嗎我公開的講很好 那我想請教你怎麼鼓勵啊要編多少經費 要吸引多少人才我們其實啊 明年的這個預算會增加但是就是 我現在就是不知道沒關係 你先照你的計畫講嘛我們也可以一起來爭取啊 對不對你不能說 欸 財劃法這樣這個可能會發生的事情我們哪些事情就做不到"},{"start":4854.122,"end":4877.037,"text":"現在還沒啊 還沒刪啊 也還沒砍啊 好不好 我們來預期一下嘛所以你預期要增加多少 要吸引多少人才新核能 這是吳祖瑞講的是 新核能 我們談的新核能 最主要就是現在國際上積極在發展的SMR多少 多少人 多少經費 對不起 我時間有限"},{"start":4878.624,"end":4887.249,"text":"現在還沒有確定不是已經在編了嗎你剛剛跟我說已經在編然後又要來趁機講一下說裁判法那現在到底要編多少預計編多少編了沒其實是不是還沒啊已經規劃了但是我們不見得有辦法提到行政院因為現在因為裁判法我們一起來努力啊我願望就是如果我明年可以編到1800億的話那是要多少"},{"start":4908.562,"end":4924.218,"text":"這個至少要明年至少要編五億五億是不是對就我們現有的新核能嘛新核能這個當然一則以喜一則以憂啦因為過去三年國客會投入SMR的這個經費只有1700萬"},{"start":4928.827,"end":4950.462,"text":"這個我是不知道哪裡可以買得起一棟房子然後我們投入在新和能但是當然我覺得我們現在到五億有增加了但是事實上全世界這個條件就是明年的這個預算在財化法修正案我還沒有對不起主委我還沒有請您發言我都知道好不好我們一起來努力嘛"},{"start":4951.343,"end":4973.391,"text":"我們看到美國的企業投入的是100億台幣起跳喔有到600億台幣當然我們不能跟企業相比啦但是我還是希望我們未來5億我們一起來努力看不管什麼樣的條件能源真的太重要了沒有能源我們沒有AI啦所以我想希望都不要受到影響那另外我也想請教你一下這個供電量的穩定度因為你們說這個多元發電啊"},{"start":4979.693,"end":4996.743,"text":"沒有核電也可以有AI這是你剛剛的說法那我們來看一下其實呢每個科學園區核定用電量跟實際發電量實際的用電量其實都有很大的差距都有很大的差距有的甚至只用到一半而已"},{"start":4997.967,"end":5008.623,"text":"那看起來電很夠啊那可是我們看台電近日的供應狀況有這個什麼彰化23號停電啦鹽城18號停電啦中壢24號停電巴黎25 26號都停電啦"},{"start":5013.47,"end":5035.914,"text":"我想請教一下主委過去有沒有發生過台電跟原管局說因為有供電的這個狀況要請園區降低用電量或者是原管處為了配合台電的要求請廠商降低用電量的情勢有沒有發生過這樣的事情有還是沒有過去沒有過去完全沒有過去完全沒有沒有"},{"start":5036.806,"end":5059.802,"text":"那为什么我们现在在园区还看到一堆什么节电计划啦为什么还要去搞这个光电板没关系未来可能有啦为什么因为当然嘛但是你还有那么多电嘛但没有关系我们说未来AI产业进入很可能会发生缺电的状况国会会可能还是要做好准备未来"},{"start":5060.743,"end":5075.928,"text":"怎麼去因應可能AI的電量會指數型的成長作為園區的大家長希望能夠讓大家對台灣的用電有信心如果這麼有信心那你覺得為什麼大家都在敦促台灣要有核電啊你覺得為什麼啊"},{"start":5077.286,"end":5090.418,"text":"三三會黃仁勛台達電董事長大家是愛合愛到怎麼了嗎你覺得為什麼會這樣啊我們很夠啊我們很夠啊你說沒有缺電啊以後AI來了也不會缺電啊他們搞錯了是不是"},{"start":5091.591,"end":5113.494,"text":"大家看到台灣產業發展非常的好當然也是很期待說我們會發展的更好所以未來的用電量會提升我們經濟部也很努力經濟部也跟我們國會來保證未來園區的用電是按照我們的規劃是可以供給的其實就是要面向未來而且要"},{"start":5115.096,"end":5126.862,"text":"這個料敵先機嘛你要知道未來可能還會用更多啦你不能說我覺得未來可以我就躺著不幹嘛所以我們來看新的園區擴建剛剛有提到其實你們瞄準的是2050年嘛那2050年我們經濟部長只說2032年可能夠啊"},{"start":5132.125,"end":5152.4,"text":"那外界很多不同看法我們就不說啦可是要到2050年要夠我們可能要做很多前期的基礎建設啊是有沒有考慮過用SMR在園區裡面早一點來研究試驗或預留空間有沒有考慮過我們當然如果經費許可的話我們一定會投入研究這沒有問題"},{"start":5153.772,"end":5173.387,"text":"所以我想也希望去研究一下在園區裡面為什麼這幾天猶他州開始在討論我們賴總統雖然說核能還沒 新核能還沒準備好但是全世界跑得比他腦海裡想的還快啦2026年很可能就要做一個上百到上千個SMR的一個聯合發電的一個做法"},{"start":5176.129,"end":5189.28,"text":"所以我希望主委作為台灣在科研上面在園區上面的指導應該要這個料敵制勝要能夠先往前看先往前做可不可以了解一下好不好好沒問題我們研究"},{"start":5192.182,"end":5206.27,"text":"最重要的就是要確保未來的新核能它是安全核廢料處理能夠讓民眾放心主委 不用幫賴總統廣告我們都知道不會有任何一個科學家要做一個危險的核能"},{"start":5207.19,"end":5227.867,"text":"我根本不用講嘛過去的核電我跟委員報告過去的核電的確是不安全的確是很可能因為人為的疏失會產生爐心溶解這個事過去曾經有這種可能性存在所以未來我們要確保這個事不會發生所以我要投入研究是這個目的主委這個不會發生"},{"start":5232.15,"end":5251.718,"text":"主委 這個代理主席 我跟你借一點時間我覺得主委 你這樣的一個做法我不是非常的能夠理解有沒有小行星曾經爆炸過?有沒有小行星曾經爆炸過?有沒有恆星會消失?"},{"start":5256.539,"end":5264.219,"text":"這是common sense恆星時間到了它就會消失那我們地球人是不是要很緊張啊"},{"start":5266.175,"end":5269.479,"text":"我們生活的環境是不是很危險啊我覺得主委你不能這樣子去講你剛剛的論點完全違背了國際對於人員現在的主流討論你現在去點出就像你剛剛去講啊哇我們這個預算可能會有這樣的刪除所以哪些哪些事情都做不到"},{"start":5287.119,"end":5303.446,"text":"我覺得不要用負面的陳述來創造一個緊張的氛圍我們科學家是盡力以社會良善的未來在做努力這一點我言盡致詞我希望您好好的報告員可以讓我講嗎感受一下"},{"start":5305.046,"end":5327.931,"text":"國際SMR的研究前提也是要確保安全核非要處理可以減費我剛剛都認同我說不會有科學家去做不安全的核能發展但您剛剛想要跟全台灣跟全世界的人民強調所有的核電廠都可能發生爐心溶解這是你作為科學家在這裡歷史上已經發生好幾次了"},{"start":5331.673,"end":5334.857,"text":"歷史上也發生過很多滅絕事件啊我們需要在這裡去討論這些事情嗎你看缺電啊主委 缺電啊"},{"start":5345.666,"end":5362.898,"text":"所以你看我不能說燈光這沒了台灣明天要停電了我不會這樣講好不好主委我想我們我今天時間有限我還有幾個問題要就教於您好不好我覺得我們希望能夠正向我們不要用這種負面的論述來讓大家感到緊張我非常正向剛剛委員"},{"start":5366.961,"end":5385.193,"text":"說我講的那句話我是很正向的很正向說我邀請我們的核能領域的專家回來研究我是很正向的我不是在講這句話沒有關係主委謝謝你我支持核能的專家要回來千萬不能流失最後有幾個點我想問我還是要感謝主委還有狗哥會的同仁把智慧機器人人型機器人納入到未來可能百億的計畫當中但是我們看到主委您"},{"start":5396.721,"end":5412.992,"text":"有一個這個說法蠻特別的你說這個智慧機器人所有人形四隻腳的翅膀型的水下的都可以算是這個機器人這個百億的範圍這會不會有點大我想請教一下那特斯拉算不算機器人"},{"start":5414.433,"end":5440.984,"text":"自駕車如果是我們講autonomous那自主型的那當然是機器人那無人機是不是機器人無人機現在還不是但是未來它是自主的自主的無人機它也是一個機器人那到底有什麼東西不算機器人我們講機器人是我們把它翻成中文有個人那那個掃地機器人也是機器人也是啊那我們現在2025年幹嘛要去弄一個這個東西呢現在那我只問你一個問題謝謝主委"},{"start":5442.865,"end":5467.908,"text":"人型機器人在你這百億裡面你打算要佔幾%我們並沒有設定沒有設定那你會不會那所以表示有可能一百億台灣一百億人這個機器人的計畫投入金率全部做掃地機器人也有可能對不對不可能啦就依照社會需求產業發展比例你總有個規劃吧所以我問您說人型機器人的比例會是多少有沒有預計"},{"start":5468.789,"end":5485.809,"text":"我不能預期我們的學者做研究會做哪一番我們是學術自由我怎麼可能限定一個比例您要規劃啊否則你100億下去到最後人形機器人根本沒有案件收不到我規劃有非常重要的原則就是這是智慧機器人就是AI來領導"},{"start":5488.372,"end":5502.456,"text":"對人類的服務它是一個重要的工具用各種型態的硬體表現出來都可以主要是有社會需求能夠幫助人類我們都發展主委我只是想跟您溝通現在全世界在討論的是人型機器人黃仁勛Elon Musk說未來會有100億台的人型機器人"},{"start":5508.237,"end":5518.982,"text":"我們如果走錯方向我們現在還在投資過去20年已經存在的這些既有的東西我們很可能會選錯邊選錯路報告委員你秀的這個照片在擂台上打鬥這種不是我的目標我的目標是要幫助人類好好的生活"},{"start":5528.126,"end":5556.335,"text":"我是要展現他的技術主委您搞錯我意思了我們希望技術比他好我是要展現他的平衡的技術我是要展現他可以跑動的技術我是要跟主委表示這是現在這個世界上已經存在的人型機器人平衡是小腦我們要研究是大腦為主這是最重要的小腦的部分台灣的產業界在零組件供應都已經供應出去了我們有能力現在最缺的是大腦是AI"},{"start":5558.191,"end":5577.095,"text":"所以您現在好沒有關係我們未來就是希望我們的百億機器人裡面有很明確的規劃到底有多少是這個掃地機器人的大腦有多少是人型機器人的大腦我們希望可以看到更仔細的規劃我們再來一起支持好不好謝謝主委謝謝委員好謝謝葛委員那請官員跟主委回座"},{"start":5593.976,"end":5597.017,"text":"接下來有請劉書斌委員質詢有請吳主委有請吳主委備質詢 謝謝劉委員好好 主委好"},{"start":5615.933,"end":5636.266,"text":"我們看下一頁就是作為一個高教領域的學者那我們的研究能力的一個提升還有促進國家的科研發展其實是非常重要的一個工作那我們看到下一面計畫的時候可以看到是看到的是好像不是這一頁"},{"start":5647.435,"end":5671.572,"text":"好 那沒關係我再次跟大家講就是這可能要換檔案喔在這地方我們先看到的是在國科會的這個計畫當中它其實有一個部分就是說它有個填要填主要學歷然後再有最高的學歷再依次來寫那這個情況之下呢這是很重要的部分而且是依照最高學歷依次來寫那就往下看那我們現在就想要請問的是下一頁好"},{"start":5677.56,"end":5680.091,"text":"这个部分好这个部分"},{"start":5681.209,"end":5686.571,"text":"我們的助理他應該是換錯檔案那我現在跟大家講的是在這個我想要詢問的是在台北科大的江雅琪教授她過去她101年畢業之後她在102年的時候就開始做這個申請那曾經是有9次的這個申請的這個情形那在申請的這個情形當中呢她在她個人資料這部分她寫的是計畫主持人不同意公開"},{"start":5708.16,"end":5717.568,"text":"那請問主委因為這個新聞已經有報出來了請問您知道江亞琪教授在她的這樣子的寫國科會計畫申請的時候她寫的這個個人資料部分她的這個內容她的在個人的主要學門的部分她是寫什麼"},{"start":5725.402,"end":5745.188,"text":"我們學者如果他個資的部分他選擇不公開我們是當然是依照個資法我們是不能公開的但是你們後來應該你們在兩年前的時候有做這樣的一個審核了啦這部分我們現在就看到這裡他主持人沒有空過那沒有關係因為之後因為這件事情你們國科會在前年的時候應該也有處理我們往下看這部分"},{"start":5747.23,"end":5756.026,"text":"在後來的情況之下呢就看到是說其實江雅琪教授她本身的學歷是那個證書上面寫的是她是社會"},{"start":5757.694,"end":5780.125,"text":"杜倫大學的2012年畢業的這樣的一個士他是社會科學健康學院的哲學博士是他的哲學博士但是呢我們後來看到國科會在審查的情況之下因為他有被人家檢舉那檢舉的時候就很清楚的呈現出來是事實上他寫的是法學院博士法學院的博士"},{"start":5781.225,"end":5784.307,"text":"法學院博士的情況是他後來就被檢舉在北科大的情況他事實上在110年的時候有人檢舉到教育部的部長信箱就呈現出來是他是因為申請到光明教育委員會的計畫的時候被申請認定說是他被揭發不實所以他還被要求說管理費要回來"},{"start":5803.24,"end":5810.585,"text":"要把他繳回 那他也繳回了那我們後來再看到繼續有人在檢舉之後 我們再往下看在這個新聞當中呈現出來是2022年 等於說是111年的情況之下呢這個部分他在6月25號的時候稱了北科大的審查認為是有問題的他自稱北科大的審查是有問題的那科技部呢就判他反定功因為他說呢 因為已經釐清了那這個地方我們大家還沒有聽到是什麼東西可是到隔一天的時候我們看看是"},{"start":5834.401,"end":5841.589,"text":"111年的6月26號的時候往下一頁看111年6月26號的時候呢這是你們國科會自己抓的媒體的報導報導當中說到這個部分了就是因為他沒有得到"},{"start":5848.237,"end":5867.711,"text":"就是依照這個研究資料的這個表決來做的時候呢他事實上是三分之二是沒有過但是你們在上面解說了本案雖未達構成違反學術倫理的行為但是呢因為填寫他因為他填的是法學院他不實的這個情勢呢跟填寫實際情況是不符的疏失的所以就發函說應該未來的時候就是應該"},{"start":5870.293,"end":5896.293,"text":"不要再發生這種情形 就這樣改變可是出現這樣的情況下說你們審查判定未達造假 但是確認定不實這兩個不是 這兩個部分不是 我跟委員報告我們國科會如果有違反學術倫理的案件被舉報了那國科會一定會組成委員會來討論他是不是有違反學術倫理然後要討論他如何要處置"},{"start":5897.814,"end":5907.821,"text":"那這個案件在當時就我所知因為這不是我認為辦理的在當時的確進到我們學術倫理委員會那委員根據辦法我們一定要依法行事但是我跟你講這邊部分我們看到往下一看的時候他不實是確定的但是你們再看看他下面的成見倒數是說如果你們看到他們這個規則在講說除失處理及審議要講說造假是存在虛構不存在的申請資料跟研究成果等等的"},{"start":5927.914,"end":5956.21,"text":"可是是不是你們內部在討論的時候我現在只要確定事實上是說他的確有不實嘛對不對因為你們的內容這樣講那我現在只是要跟竹文您講的實在說如果他不實的話當然如果真的達到的話就是書面的嫁戒嘛對不對可是你們說因為三分之二沒達到可是你們卻在你們的新聞稿當中提出來這些部分嘛八卦是說他真的是虛假不實所以要他做改變嘛如果他不是如果他是真的他為什麼需要改變需要讓他說以後不要再做這樣的事情"},{"start":5956.914,"end":5972.419,"text":"是他的確因為他是個人填的他的個人資料是他個人填就好像我個人的履歷都是我自己寫的那我怎麼樣講我的履歷別人其實不太會來關注嘛這個事情是因為他填到國科會的網站上面"},{"start":5972.739,"end":5990.857,"text":"但是主委我現在跟您問一個問題如果你寫法學院的博士跟你是社會健康學院的博士你在申請相關領域的這樣的一個申請的時候你覺得哪一個比較容易被申請到應該就是可以據說是法學院吧對這是申請人他個人自己判斷我們是允許"},{"start":5991.417,"end":6020.492,"text":"我們允許不同領域的人到不同的學門申請計畫這是允許因為有很多跨領域合作的研究是需要不同的學門的人一起來做研究這是允許的但是他宣稱自己從某個學院畢業是他自己要負責是他自己填的那我們在學術倫理委員會我們也討論了但是並沒有到三分之二的委員認為這個已經嚴重到只是希望他要更改"},{"start":6022.252,"end":6050.043,"text":"這個是疏失這個部分涉及到的是因為他這個部分涉及到的是他的確有這個部分就是他有實際上另外的考量制度這一部分就是部分需要是要有確實不然不然你寫這個資料就造成說他有甚至你們在說下面的時候可以看到你們自己寫說一向重視學術研究誠信學歷登載不實你們說的喔不但會傷害學者個人生活也可能影響學術資源分配是公正性這就是重點啦學術資源分配的公正性"},{"start":6050.863,"end":6055.768,"text":"有可能會誤導審查委員會有這個企圖存在所以這地方絕對是要有做一個惡質的動作好這邊我就先到這邊的為止我們現在回到要做的是關於國客會的預算的解凍這一部分往下一頁"},{"start":6067.406,"end":6082.623,"text":"你們為了在國家太空中心這部分呈現出來是說他在第四點要委員關心的事項當中是說太空產值在全球的太空產業佔比能夠偏低那請問一下這個佔比在全世界的產值比例是佔的多少"},{"start":6084.468,"end":6086.671,"text":"你說目前啊對對對 你們自己有偏低這個數據嗎我要請我們太空中心吳主任來回答因為大概現在佔比是比較低大概2到3%2到3%主要原因以前台灣是沒有太空產業這回事"},{"start":6100.225,"end":6118.837,"text":"好 我們現在先知道我們從這個基礎往上發展那我們也看到太空產業的發展當中你們就分成四大領域衛星製造 衛星發射 地面設備跟衛星服務這四大領域這是你們寫的那我們繼續往下看就一個一個來看的時候那我們再看到的是你們在剛才的整個四個領域當中2773億當中"},{"start":6121.659,"end":6143.24,"text":"在第三個部分 地面設施的部分 設備這部分你們佔了2464億所以這個平面看起來是說它佔的是比較高超過了應該是有大概九成左右嘛 對不對那九成左右 那其他的三個領域當中是當然就要再講就是它可能有分配88%啦那其他三種的發展就是應該極速的要加強 對不對"},{"start":6146.156,"end":6151.081,"text":"我們都要發展但是因為地面的設備的部分量是最大的所以它的佔比會 將來的產值好 那我們繼續往下看這部分我看到再繼續看到衛星製造這部分那我們現在是有一個就是你們有說到新創追星企劃這一部分"},{"start":6163.274,"end":6179.45,"text":"它這個有些衛星的關鍵元件要去製造那自製率因為你們把所謂的太空的這個計畫把它自主衛星計畫的自主是當作很重要的一個目標那現在的關鍵元件自主率現在自製率是達到95%那請問大概預計什麼時候會達到100%有沒有這樣的一個規劃預計自己的目標設定"},{"start":6185.444,"end":6204.219,"text":"我們其實要跟國際合作不見得要到百分之百有很多關鍵的零組件跟我們友善的國家一個合作的關係反而會創造我們更多的市場所以我們在策略上不要變成是一個獨佔但是我們現在目標當然是希望能夠達到八九十%"},{"start":6205.581,"end":6225.901,"text":"這樣的這個自治率那跟一個友好的國家我們要維持一個很好的這個合作的關係那將來才有辦法讓我們可以使用到很多的衛星的這個頻寬因為我們自己做了這個花錢我們自己做的完整的衛星的數量不會太多政府的資源有限希望將來扶持產業的發展讓我們"},{"start":6229.384,"end":6238.431,"text":"你們用你們策略性的考量就對了啦對有策略性的考量好那我們繼續往下看因為還有其他請教的部分那我們繼續往下看那衛星發射這是我們現在的重點啦你們在報告上都寫照是說要規劃大概2000公斤的這個一個籌債的任務一個需求齁那這個部分因為目前我們現在看的微衛星那你們現在包括了福衛的這個8號通通都是大概400多公斤嘛齁那你們400公斤左右你們都是透過跟國際間的這個發射到卡納維爾角這部分"},{"start":6256.584,"end":6281.109,"text":"那大概何時遇到到兩千公斤的這部分因為需要有目標的規劃兩百公斤的規範我們現在福衛八號預計今年十月要發射大概有四百公斤沒錯可是我們現在是自主的一個發射能力啊這很重要啊自主發射能力火箭的部分我們目標是兩百因為是要發射那個通信衛星通信衛星跟現在福衛八號它是主要是遙測"},{"start":6282.489,"end":6284.109,"text":"那什麼時候要達成?預計什麼時候完成?200公斤的?入軌火箭的部分嗎?目前預計到自主發射10年我們從去年開始算,就是到2034"},{"start":6303.814,"end":6307.576,"text":"2034年 因為現在還要建置發射場然後我們那個火箭研究的大樓也是才開始要蓋所以因為這個預算的編列就是限制我們沒有辦法一下就的確的確我們剛才看到這邊還有很大的發展空間那我們繼續往下看你剛才講到那個發射的場地場域的部分我們看到這部分"},{"start":6329.125,"end":6351.373,"text":"今年的時候你們已經也做了一個新聞媒體的記者會是說新聞稿要呈現出來3月26號說的已經確定的是在兩個一個台東一個在屏東的滿洲鄉的情況之下那因為它本身有需要很多的這個場址上面有些條件要符合那其中你們提到的是說在"},{"start":6352.913,"end":6378.173,"text":"南台南田部落當中有一個選址就是有這個部落的一個有同意這個部分有達成這個部分可是現在問題你們你們只知道這一部分那我想問的是說請問在屏東你們現在選定的這個屏東縣的九鵬村這部分的確定的這個什麼這個地方的這個公聽會有沒有做有沒有做有全部都有做我們在九鵬村也一樣共識已經達成了嗎當地當地當地民眾也也是六到七成同意"},{"start":6382.916,"end":6409.131,"text":"其實有超過七成那請問在什麼時候因為你們在剛剛的這個報告當中並沒有你們只寫到南田部落你們沒有寫那所以請問一下南田部落是我們最後選址的兩個最後的這個場子之一那我其實我也公開的講我們將來在這個火箭發射場的規劃建置其實不是只有發射場我們會搭配我們的太空科技博物館太空科技交易館那兩個地方都會有兩個地方都會有"},{"start":6412.132,"end":6432.748,"text":"兩個地方都有但是你現在是說屏東九鵬村的滿洲鄉的九鵬村已經是確定的已經確定那是發射場發射場將來還有這個我剛提到的博物館跟教育館那還有這個各種各樣的這個結合當地生態旅遊的這個規劃兩個地方我們都會規劃是很好那我現在是說你們確定那請問九鵬村的這個宮廳會是什麼時候舉行的"},{"start":6439.895,"end":6449.442,"text":"那都已經結束啦 都已經同意啦可是你們那邊沒有寫齁所以我想說確定日期因為這個1月4號的在藍田部落這邊是有的但是這邊在報告當中是沒有呈現出來所以懷疑是不是沒有做是 是 都完成了那這個是不是把時間到時候請發射的部分屬於這部分來把資料提供出來好"},{"start":6460.43,"end":6462.812,"text":"好 謝謝 那繼續往下看另外更重要的是說包括有這個後續的敏感這個環境敏感地區的部分還有這個居民的餘裕這部分我希望在環評這部分也做了嗎"},{"start":6472.626,"end":6489.059,"text":"環境影響評估是後續要進行因為要選址確定以後我們馬上就要進行所以一定會依照法令一定會做的跟當地的生態保育團體甚至當地村民還有鄉民我們甚至全部都會去溝通"},{"start":6497.726,"end":6520.72,"text":"這邊就到此,再跟主席借大概半分鐘就好了我們繼續往下看,在這裡,清除科學園區它其實佔到蠻大的一個費用那往下看的時候,就是說凍結百分之三十的部分你們提到的項目類別有六項,可是六項當中你們事實上對於未明,就並沒有具體的明列它的這個細項的部分我們繼續再往下看的時候,可以看到是說"},{"start":6522.372,"end":6529.538,"text":"成果有講,但是未來要做什麼?你看竹科的新竹園區的擴建,榮台園區的擴建,請問擴建是屬於在業務費當中嗎?我們接下來馬上要上任的新的局長擴建一開始是在我們建管組業務費裡面的規劃"},{"start":6543.908,"end":6550.378,"text":"所以它事實上真的是業務費擴建這部分好 那請問一下 在生物VO這個生物跟這個資通產業的整合編列的產業也是放在它的這個發展也是放在業務費是嗎是的 它這是一個補助的計畫好"},{"start":6559.751,"end":6581.11,"text":"還有人才培訓的計畫好那這個地方我希望還是看到有時候KPI的部分就是到底想要達到什麼一個效果成果等等因為你們這邊在報告當中都沒有寫反而是花很多時間在過去的可是最重要是凍結預算要把它解重的話最重要是要看到未來你們做到什麼東西可是這沒有呈現出來我想應該把它補充是不是在大概兩個禮拜就呈現出來你們這個這個目標的KPI呈現好謝謝那就謝謝主席好謝謝委員"},{"start":6588.583,"end":6597.61,"text":"謝謝劉書斌委員的諮詢 官員請回座接下來我們在陳秀寶委員之後呢休息五分鐘那我們接下來有請羅廷瑞委員諮詢好 謝謝主席 有請我們吳主委有請吳主委備諮詢 謝謝羅委員好好 主委好主委 最近我們台灣人來瘋"},{"start":6618.24,"end":6643.725,"text":"那怎麼說人來風黃仁勳那黃仁勳回台演講還宣布回答要在北市科設海外總部全台都在看他要不要帶著整條AI產業鏈回來跟台灣合作他也講得很清楚說會和台積電、鴻海還有國科會一起打造台灣的第一台AI電腦我想請問主委目前這個合作談的進度如何談到哪裡了"},{"start":6644.705,"end":6649.033,"text":"我們只是有初步的討論過依照他們發布的這樣的訊息後續細節還沒有談所以是屬於被動嗎"},{"start":6657.576,"end":6684.626,"text":"也不算啦大家一起動啦大家一起動你認為國會在這個部分上是負責主導投資還是技術協調國會代表我們政府也包含經濟部跟樹花部將來會跟產業界一起合作因為我們要發展算力光靠政府的這個資源是不夠的將來的產業發展需要一定需要產業也要投入而且投入的這個"},{"start":6686.466,"end":6708.434,"text":"這個幅度會比政府還要大很多會不會要先談一些就是說合作意向書或是備忘錄這個部分這個後續我們開始進行細部的合作的規劃的時候一定會有 一定會簽約的好 那我們後續這個因為台灣現在這部分上有一個Tide AI雲這些計畫可不可以整合在一起"},{"start":6710.067,"end":6724.603,"text":"我們委員講的就是我們主權AI的部分包含我們自主的這個AI模型的規劃研究設計然後應用的部分這個我們現在從國科會"},{"start":6728.032,"end":6754.126,"text":"政府這邊的這個團隊開始我們擴散到我們的這個學界還有產業界有多個這個計畫我們在今年開始啟動那未來就不會只限定是台德我們希望說現在新的這個AI的這個模型設計的方法已經有大幅度的進步一直在進步當中不能只靠政府所以這一部分我們從國防中心開始建立平台鼓勵"},{"start":6754.986,"end":6771.282,"text":"我們包含中央研究院各個大學還有產業界都進來做這個研究你說還有產業界那後面我要講的是國防中心的16PF的超級電腦已經建好了南科沙倫也有資料中心準備啟用那這次輝達的AI超級電腦是不是也會放在這些地方"},{"start":6772.589,"end":6791.224,"text":"是給少數人用還是開放學界產業也可以申請我們所有的資料中心不管它座落在哪裡都是全國全國學界都在使用那有部分我們也跟產業界在合作把我們的學界研究成果應用落地到我們的民間所以會放在哪裡"},{"start":6793.423,"end":6821.198,"text":"揮打這個他已經宣布了跟這個鴻海合作是在高雄高雄好那我想說還是要照顧到學界跟產業啦是那剛剛有問你就是會不會納入像泰德語言模型喔那醫療AI的國防應用我想方式很多種啦那很多可以參考但是我們就希望說能夠趁這個機會能夠各方的系統跟不管是醫療AI國防應用都能夠藉此機會透過揮打來打藥劑"},{"start":6822.839,"end":6851.079,"text":"那這個部分上也希望說一定要盡可能的將台灣的一些資源投入到裡面以後一起升級啊是 這個方向的確是我們在進行的是沒有錯好 根據國科會在行政院的報告到2029年政府希望建置480PF的公共算力加上民間投資總算力要超過1200這個目標很大但我想問這一次跟輝達合作是不是也列進了我們AI建設的藍圖"},{"start":6852.917,"end":6878.778,"text":"我們現在正在修正我們的AI的算力建置的規劃所以將來把民間的投資算進來的話會遠大於我們原來的規劃原來的規劃是只有政府的部分而且現在在算力的建置因為AI的這個比重越來越高了所以現在這個算力的這個我們評估它的這個算力的這個"},{"start":6883.043,"end":6897.392,"text":"現在基本上從今年開始業界已經改變了是用這個耗電量耗能的算法那所以輝達跟鴻海他們宣布的未來在高雄"},{"start":6898.513,"end":6915.005,"text":"可能還會擴散到其他地方它分三期總共會有100MW所以它第一期20MW可能今年就會開始啟動那未來還有兩個階段都是各40MW這是他們宣布的"},{"start":6915.305,"end":6933.901,"text":"所以我們看到他這三期的計畫很龐大啦但是在整個政府的部分上國科會應該要負責協調像是其他經濟部教育部要怎麼對接這些算力的資源國科會可以來幫忙協助嗎是是 這沒問題的確也是我們正在協調當中因為經濟部跟教育部不可能比你還了解啊"},{"start":6934.381,"end":6957.496,"text":"所以我覺得你應該要去協助這個部分好 謝謝羅委員 這個是我們責無旁貸那我們國防中心也的確跟我們民間的業者也積極在進行台灣算力聯盟的這個工作對啊 甚至還有衛福部 國防部啊都會用到 他們都會用到國防部的一個運用嘛所以我說國科會在這樣子的一個部分上是佔有一個非常重要的一個關鍵點"},{"start":6958.777,"end":6980.336,"text":"不只是銜接我們民間的資源,更是要幫忙協助政府這邊的跨部會協助這部分我想予以重任,您可以認同嗎?謝謝羅遠,我們會做這個事好,那接下來我要講就是說,現階段我們看到我們過去國科會推動的Tide AI語言啊繁中的語言模型啊,都是我們在AI領域的重要資產"},{"start":6981.437,"end":7009.171,"text":"但是未來這個輝達的合作案就像我剛剛一直在提到的會不會也幫忙支援Tide的訓練工作這部分上當然我不是說重視Tide而已就像你說的還有其他的可能性但是我們有沒有預算留一些給這些資源給Tide 2 Tide Meet尤其這些模型可能要政府支援要訓練的有沒有這個機制成果回饋國內的一個產業我想這都是我們應該要列入到探討裡面"},{"start":7010.402,"end":7032.665,"text":"對,我們將來如果是學界也在發展,我們業界也在發展,我們希望能夠透過這個產學的合作,讓我們民間在主權AI新模型的這個開發,能夠進步的更快,的確是按照委員的講法的方向在進行,這是沒有問題。"},{"start":7033.866,"end":7056.347,"text":"接下來要講的是說國科會我們要發展更多的AI雲也希望能夠幫助到中小企業接軌AI那之前我們就一直在講就是我們發展的AI雲跟中小企業要的會不會銜接上或者是不接地氣這個都是我們要注意的但是我目前還看不到清楚的使用機制未來算力要怎麼申請公開分配"},{"start":7057.088,"end":7083.565,"text":"有沒有辦法有沒有建立資源的管理平台像是提供申請紀錄成果追蹤確保政府花錢能夠有實質的效益這部分你怎麼看這部分當然我們一定要做就是說將來我們不管是資源學界資源業界我們都需要有一個公平公開的這個做法這個我們公安中心將來所以我希望能夠趕快研擬出來這些相關的機制嘛就是這部分我想提醒你嘛"},{"start":7085.2,"end":7108.542,"text":"這個沒問題 我們國防中心正在發展這個平台那成熟的時候 我們大概今年下半年會公佈這個做法我們這次這樣合作 我要做最後的一個提醒不只是硬體的建制 更關係到未來我們台灣的AI主導權我們要確保技術不會被外商壟斷資料還能夠掌握在台灣手上"},{"start":7109.423,"end":7138.491,"text":"主委針對你說的這個主權AI我覺得這個資料主權技術回饋在地人才的培育國科會一定要有初步的合作框架跟條件的設計這部分上你有準備嗎這個已經準備了我們講主權AI目的就是要自己建我們的算力包含政府跟民間都要建那把我們寶貴的資料留在台灣這是一個很重要的工作"},{"start":7139.558,"end":7156.223,"text":"國科會這幾年推動在跨領域的人才培育AI雲的運用人才的推升以及太的應用擴散等多項的人才相關計畫但從架構來看教育部的高教生跟產學攜手合作的計畫在目標跟訓練內容上高度重疊"},{"start":7157.703,"end":7183.802,"text":"國科會是否曾與教育部能夠建立常設的協調機制釐清資源分配的訓練職能盤點過去計畫的交集以及重複補助的對象以提升整體的效益我們有常設的溝通機制的確是有的那你有沒有發現這些有重複的沒有重複 我跟委員報告那你覺得這個訓練內容有沒有高度重疊"},{"start":7185.808,"end":7203.06,"text":"不是高度重疊,他們一定要一樣百分之百重疊但是主政的範圍不一樣我們需要學校的人力將來要進到產業界進到社會去發揮所以教育部的教學一定要跟我們現在要推動的百光百業"},{"start":7203.92,"end":7225.362,"text":"所以你的意思是在同一條軌道上要同一條軌道但是是不一樣的層級不一樣就是好像交棒一樣可能是在校園內的人才培育然後到產業界的一個銜接就馬上可以應用沒有錯好那目前我們看到這些國科會主導計畫合作對象人大多數集中在台青 交城 陽明 交大等頂階學校"},{"start":7226.623,"end":7233.53,"text":"請問國歌會是否統計過中南部的這個院區啊或者是技職體系的學校來實質參與比例"},{"start":7236.086,"end":7261.64,"text":"我們的確我接任以後這是一個重點我們在研究型的大學我們當然鼓勵這些學者要做前瞻的研究幫我們開發主權AI的模型等等這些研究工作是要仰賴研究型的大學但是其他的大學我們要培養人才是要做各式各樣的應用能夠對社會上所有的AI需求不同的領域我們都要培養人才"},{"start":7262.62,"end":7284.887,"text":"包含這個技職體系還有私立大學所以中南部的技職體系跟大學你有參考哪幾所全部大學只要願意做的我們現在都支持都支持 對好 那台中唯利啦 勤益科大台中科大 嶺東都沒問題 紅光我們都歡迎這些學校來申請 朝陽對 亞洲"},{"start":7287.308,"end":7305.978,"text":"這部分我希望說以台中的部分能夠幫我們多關心是好不好當然你說的是全部啦我們全國都會關心全部都沒關係哪怕是新大或者是其他學校都沒關係我是希望說幫我們中南部的多照顧一下有這些學校提計畫我們現在都會非常的歡迎"},{"start":7306.638,"end":7335.97,"text":"好那以相關的基電整合製造智慧製造的一個專業這些校院區是否被納入培育基地或者是共學實驗場域這個也要等到他們提出申請嗎還是你們有計劃可以考慮推動的時候有一個AI應用的聯盟可以主動去跟他們聯繫呢這個只要體計劃執行單位願意組成這個聯盟我們其實都樂觀所以還是在這個部分上需要他們主動"},{"start":7336.73,"end":7358.928,"text":"是是是 因為這個學術自由 我不能逼哪一個學校做什麼事情但可不可以幫我們把這些相關的計畫 或者是至少行個文告訴他們有這個機會 他們可以來申請 提醒他們其實好好 可以提醒 我們都是公開的我知道我知道 而且有時候公開 畢竟網路上你的網站不一定每個人看嘛沒有沒有 我們也都會發函到各校好 所以你確定你會發函"},{"start":7359.688,"end":7377.614,"text":"全部每個學校都會收到要提醒你喔 好不好好 謝謝那目前部分的TIDE跟AI雲的課程開始導入到業界資源但多數我們的課綱仍由學界主導請問課程的計畫設計是否有制度化引入職人導向的架構由產業的協會龍頭的企業參與整個設計的機制主委"},{"start":7383.466,"end":7411.985,"text":"課程的部分是應該是教育部經濟部 勞動部都有啦這幾個部分其實都有 多聽聽產業啦是是是我剛剛就講了嘛就是說產業的協會龍頭的企業參與設計能夠將整個課綱或者是這些教學的課程能夠設計的更加符合學界跟產業界的一個平衡當然我沒有說一定要只聽某一方但是我覺得整個東西應該是滾動式修正"},{"start":7413.045,"end":7436.133,"text":"這個部分你可以認同嗎這個我認同那你可以幫忙一下嗎我知道因為我也會協調各部會就是包含其實還不只衛福部因為我們希望培育成效的方面國科會可以建立具體的一個追蹤制度我想目前你有掌握捷訓學員一年三年後工作去向跟留台比例嗎你有追蹤嗎"},{"start":7438.319,"end":7462.515,"text":"這一部分是各部會要負擔各部會有沒有追蹤未來可以把我們相關人才培育計畫來提醒各部會要去追蹤趙偉不要一直看我再給我一分鐘拜託再給我一點時間壓力很大但我要講的就是連我們畢業了學校都會打電話問我們我們的職場追蹤那你的未來去向"},{"start":7463.342,"end":7480.263,"text":"那國歌會在對於這些學員上的培育成效是不是應該要去好好的追蹤來瞭解一下你要提醒各部會要幫忙追蹤會規資訊給你們那你們才可以瞭解這整個設計上是不是有變革啊是不是需要在滾動式修正你可不可以認同"},{"start":7481.298,"end":7500.153,"text":"我認同 我們會提醒各部會所以你要去修正嘛 好不好人才培育不是訓練完就結案建立整個縱向的人才資料庫結合學歷 授訓 就業 研究資訊確保這些追蹤能力是否能夠投入國家科技的這個發展主軸這個是我們需要去研究的"},{"start":7500.353,"end":7522.44,"text":"地方中小企業反映他們很難參與國科會大型計畫國科會是否能夠建立在地產學對接機制協助培養對企業人才的一個需求以後媒合幫忙協助這樣子的一個培訓資源這個是我要提是 地方中小企業在地產學對接機制"},{"start":7523.46,"end":7550.939,"text":"國科會有產學合作計畫但是地方中小企業也有經濟部我知道你有這些計畫但是能不能夠接中小企業的更多廣泛的這些應用然後幫他們協助對接這是我們要探討的我現在正在做這個事所以我也邀請希望你加大力度邀請經濟部中小企業署也進來了希望你加大力度商業發展署也進來了那我們看到同樣一個方向但我們希望有具體的成效讓我們知道好 謝謝委員"},{"start":7554.46,"end":7558.802,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢 官員請回座接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員質詢請廣告吳主委有請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":7579.523,"end":7608.02,"text":"陳委員好主委好主委從去年五月TED發表之後本席就持續在關心關於TED相關的議題包括資料庫的更新以及後續的推廣等等那去年的七月國客會跟中研院為了持續投入旗艦級TED研發向輝達的AI超級電腦申請的這個算力的應用那想請教主委旗艦級TED跟之前發表的TED有什麼不一樣"},{"start":7610.075,"end":7631.963,"text":"過去我們太子在國會內部我們找這個學界專家來協助發展它是一個示範性的作用也是少量的經費但是我接著以後我就決定要把它擴散擴散就是我們要更多的研究人力進來那現在包含學界已經在增案了更多的這個"},{"start":7633.724,"end":7639.85,"text":"學術研究的這個專家所以是延續之前的態度但是是規模內容更多會更進步那中央研究院其實最近也有蠻好的這個進展他們將來會公佈他們研究的成果那我們也希望說藉由國科會的產學合作也希望產業界也投入投入相關的這個研究"},{"start":7654.344,"end":7665.587,"text":"所以將來一定會發展得更順利那國網中心會建立一個平台這個平台會讓新的我們研究的成果除了TED之外還有其他的模型陸續會掛上來是在外國許多AI都會推出APP讓民眾方便使用"},{"start":7672.469,"end":7690.819,"text":"那在高使用率的這個情況之下可以即時的搜尋網頁做即時的回應其實很多使用者他會習慣使用他使用的很順手他也會建立他的使用的慣用的模式那後續對我們Tide在推廣上就會有一點難度因為他已經習慣使用這樣子的一個APP"},{"start":7692.2,"end":7711.028,"text":"國客會這邊有沒有計畫就是說我們要提供我們的Tide的內容有更具台灣文化的這些相關的資料將Tide打造成適合台灣人使用的這個AI工具報告委員 委員的建議非常好我其實正在提醒我們的國網中心因為現在Tide的這個應用"},{"start":7712.188,"end":7727.256,"text":"平台在觀光中心建立那我也希望觀光中心也發展出讓民眾都可以使用到的Tide的這個應用這個我們觀光中心努力一定在年底之前我要求它一定要完成都可以使用到主要是要說它是好用是順手的"},{"start":7729.497,"end":7750.307,"text":"所以我會希望說我們建制泰德的時候我們要結合更多的台灣的文化特色例如我們台灣的慣用語我們的台語更多台灣的元素甚至我們的風俗習慣讓民眾在使用的時候覺得說這是符合我們使用的而不是我們去遷就他其他使用的這些軟體而且這是軟體是適用於我們我們國安中心張主任你要不要保證一定要好用"},{"start":7759.301,"end":7774.945,"text":"保證我們會把用台灣的元素再放在這些語言模型裡面讓大家覺得好用然後又是有台灣味謝謝您的保證因為其實AIR RUN你是越用越好用因為越多人使用它才會是順手的是是那我們資料就會更多"},{"start":7775.225,"end":7793.755,"text":"我們越多民眾來下載更多產業來運用它的時候我們TiDE的效益會更大更高所以感謝您的保證我也希望說盡量我們加更多的元素就是台灣人的習慣的就是會運用到的這些元素進去的話我們民眾會喜歡的去使用它習慣的去使用它"},{"start":7795.316,"end":7798.818,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員好 謝謝那接下來我想請教主委我們國會會這邊有宣布說為了補足人力的缺口會投入智慧型機器人的研發包括像人型、四角型、四膀型等等而且首先會以智慧醫療及餐飲、旅宿業的應用為主那計畫兩年之內就會有產品可以進入市場來應用我想請教主委"},{"start":7820.151,"end":7825.706,"text":"目前有計劃就是優先的研發哪一種類型的機器人可以最快的投入市場"},{"start":7826.886,"end":7847.597,"text":"好 我們現在臺灣面臨最嚴重的人力短缺的部分可能是在健康照護的產業 旅宿餐飲的產業這些產業的需求 就是民眾的需求會造成我們自己在製造端 在系統設計供應端這邊的產業投入的意願"},{"start":7852.259,"end":7875.106,"text":"我們如果沒有藉助我們自己產業的實力的話我們要自己發展我們的應用的產業是很困難的所以我的策略就是要針對現在台灣最嚴重的我們人力缺乏民眾需求最高的這個產業會先發展所以大概現在設定的目標在健康紮戶以及旅宿餐飲這個會先做那至於其他的學術研究部分是我們完全開放"},{"start":7875.526,"end":7885.757,"text":"在這兩個方面我們關於智慧醫療及旅宿餐飲業我們去設計一個怎樣型態的機器人來服務型都是服務型會跟人接觸的那麼我們也有跟產業來溝通嗎我們是貼近他們的需求的嗎"},{"start":7891.223,"end":7908.079,"text":"有 我們在規劃過程當中就是陸續跟學界跟產業界特別是產業界有兩種一種就是科技的供應端的產業那是台灣最強的我們的製造業那另外一種就是科技需求端的產業就是我們AI要應用到百工百業所有的"},{"start":7908.359,"end":7928.646,"text":"本集的意思就是說我們去研發這個機器人提供給我們這樣的產業來使用的時候要是符合他們需求的方向要符合需求這是最重要的沒有錯那國科會這邊也預計在國研院下面要設置機器人研究中心將以研究人工智慧為主那麼機器人本體的部分是由工研院來進行研發嗎"},{"start":7930.626,"end":7955.061,"text":"工研院跟國研院都會研發 國研院就是要連結學界 工研院就是要連結產業界那機器人研究中心的設置的規劃是怎麼樣規劃 會 設置 研究中心的設置我們會利用工研院在南部的院區 南分院它就是在台南的六甲 在烏山頭水庫旁邊它有既有的基地 所以我們就不必再發"},{"start":7956.082,"end":7966.267,"text":"是本來就有個基地在那邊本來就有在那個地方建立這個研究的團隊跟產業界一起一起設計未來的產品然後製造基地經濟部也下來協助那經濟部現在正在規劃一個智慧機器人的產業園區"},{"start":7973.45,"end":7993.361,"text":"主任因為最近就是人力荒各個產業尤其像醫護最近也爆很多出走潮那在本席的選區有很多傳統產業不同類型的工業也都有人力荒那國客會這次機器人的研發雖然你們是以智慧醫療及旅宿餐飲為主也希望說陸續我們要針對工業這方面來研發機器人希望說國客會跟經濟部這邊要多於產業溝通因為傳產其實這個人力缺一直讓"},{"start":8004.026,"end":8027.895,"text":"這個產業都非常煩惱很緊張那如果說我們可以盡快的跟產業來了解那我們研發可以舒緩這相關人力缺工壓力的這樣子的機器人這也是產業的福音所以也希望說我們說兩年之內我們這個機器人就會進入市場來應用這個希望可以很快有好消息而且得到好的回饋那我們來發展各種的機器人來協助產業"},{"start":8029.756,"end":8042.248,"text":"好那接下來我要請教主委是說黃能勳先生來台演講的時候有提到說會跟國科會這邊合作AI基礎設施那想請教主委針對合作的內容到目前我們有沒有討論規劃出一個比較具體的範圍或是項目"},{"start":8046.891,"end":8071.659,"text":"我們還沒有具體的項目但範圍大致了解範圍就是說輝達跟鴻海他們會合作建立非常大的資料中心超級電腦的算力這個算力的目的他們宣布的一個名詞叫做AI Factory就是AI的工廠它的工廠不是指的硬體製造它是要把AI各種各樣的應用的軟體要開發出來"},{"start":8075.86,"end":8101.914,"text":"讓各行各業都可以使用AI我們國科會跟他合作主要就是在將來可能會推動智慧程式各種各樣的應用結合學界力量跟產業界力量一起來開發來滿足未來應用的需求這個需求也會搭配剛剛提到的我們機器人的產業因為將來要有硬體還要有AI就是我們要發展"},{"start":8103.995,"end":8128.584,"text":"機器要使用的智慧就是大腦相關的東西會包含晶片也包含軟體也包含控制的部分就是小腦的部分在中部特別強的就是控制的部分在北部特別強的就是晶片的產業跟南部系統的設計整合會結合在一起所以我們整個台灣都會一起來發展相關的產業"},{"start":8130.725,"end":8134.747,"text":"好那另外針對黃榮勳先生他有發表說對AI機器人的想法跟展望其實我們隔空會這邊也發表了智慧機器人的計畫那科學園區也新增了3000公頃的這個園區用地那這個部分我們是要為了佈局配合機器人計畫還是要用於跟輝達合作的這個AI基礎設施"},{"start":8150.856,"end":8171.368,"text":"其實兩個都會有需要因為這是兩個都會用到半導體非常先進的半導體那這個半導體現在我們最強的就是台灣的先進製程製造的這個半導體產業它是台積電帶頭整個供應鏈我們在這個供應鏈國產自由的比例也越來越重所以我們現在對這個未來產業的需求對於我們國家的這個經濟的發展"},{"start":8176.631,"end":8199.988,"text":"我們國家安全的保障等等都非常重要那我們希望說把未來這個到2050年這個產業發展的這個需求先把它規劃起來先期規劃的好處是說我可以有足夠的時間把我們的生態保育把我們的社區文化的這個維持都能夠在我們在未來科學研究的發展當中同時都把它納進來讓民眾可以減低民眾的疑慮因為"},{"start":8206.432,"end":8216.862,"text":"園區的開發是要讓大家生活更好所以不是只有工廠經濟面而已而是要把文化的保持生態的保持做得更好這種新型態的園區開發我們就用大範圍但是低密度的這種開發"},{"start":8223.149,"end":8225.751,"text":"來發展未來的新的園區謝謝主委你們這邊是考慮到很周詳喔那另外我要請教說因為現在在教育界我們昨天教育我們也討論了這個問題就是關於川普政府暫停學生簽證的這個面試"},{"start":8239.787,"end":8256.109,"text":"那么如果未来川普政府他这种美国制造的思维主问您觉得说未来美国政府会不会禁止美国人才外出就是说如果以后美国相关高科技人才将也留在美国为主您觉得说对台湾或者对国际间会不会造成怎样的影响"},{"start":8258.025,"end":8280.121,"text":"我相信美国政府可能有时候有一些个案我没有办法评论但是整体来讲美国是一个非常创新的国家我相信这种个案其实不会是全面性的会发生美国从它的历史上看起来也是非常"},{"start":8280.982,"end":8294.188,"text":"非常仰賴他的移民各個年代的移民對美國的創新跟他的經濟發展有非常大的貢獻主委您的意思是說應該不至於發生這樣的狀況但是其實本席要強調就是說其實我們國際相關的科技產業的局勢其實變化萬千"},{"start":8299.971,"end":8323.516,"text":"有時候一個想法一句話一個決定可能就會馬上會顛覆我們原來合作的相關的模式那我希望說國會會你們作為主要支持我們基礎科研的這個部會以及我們是引領整個科技發展的這個方針的領頭羊我們對隨時注意這個國際上局勢的變化我們也必須可以隨時做出反應我們守護科技也要守護人才"},{"start":8324.416,"end":8339.524,"text":"謝謝委員提醒對於我們自己在海外的留學生我們也都有機制也會來協助他們協助他們要轉還是要回來有好的機會讓他們發展這個我們都會注意謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢官員請回座我們接下來休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8351.971,"end":8381.8,"text":"誒"},{"start":8652.605,"end":8654.668,"text":"好 謝謝 我們繼續開會接下來我們有請張雅琳委員質詢我們有請主委有請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":8670.543,"end":8684.814,"text":"主委想要首先請教有關於低軌衛星的問題就是在去年10月14號的時候行政院開了一個SRB的會議我們就有提到說國客會將會著手進行次世代通訊發展方案"},{"start":8685.815,"end":8704.173,"text":"来为技术和创新呢与市场应用奠定坚实的基础那在5月17号的时候我也看到新闻的报道主委表示说我们已经提出了相关的草案而且呢正在跟亚马逊旗下的网络卫星系统Kyper正在洽谈合作中这项洽谈呢已经得到了美国政府的一个许可哦"},{"start":8705.356,"end":8719.32,"text":"那未來將會透過台灣一個比較強的一個製造實力來跟協助美國業者得到更容易取得高品質的不管是衛星、地面站、終端設備等等那我們可以在這個合作中取到三個我覺得蠻關鍵的東西就是第一個通訊衛星營運的服務"},{"start":8722.021,"end":8740.99,"text":"來以利台灣佈局新系第三呢保證我們的通訊韌性那在其實相關多的發言裡面我都看到說組委裡面很強調就是說資訊這個會對我們的智慧城市物聯網應用行動通訊產業扮演關鍵的小角色所以我們必須要持續地來投入"},{"start":8741.63,"end":8751.047,"text":"但我自己覺得這個看起來應該不是只有提升產業而已應該還涉及到了我們這個所謂的國安議題"},{"start":8753.585,"end":8773.422,"text":"那我想請教一下我們現在在跟Kyper談的時候我們有沒有掌握我們平時跟戰時或是災難時的一個通訊容量的需求呢這樣子我們才能夠去確保說當我們遇到重大的災難或是戰爭斷網的時候我們需要多少的頻寬才能維持我們一個救災啦或是一些關鍵基礎設施的通訊我們有沒有掌握"},{"start":8774.502,"end":8802.128,"text":"報告委員我們現在跟開普在談的公開的這些合作其實並沒有牽涉到比較敏感的那個國安需求我們在國安需求的部分目前是總統府國安會有規劃當中那我們太空中心也在協助那將來開普會不會是其中的一部分現在還不確定但是我們要談的主要是針對產業發展這是我們在公開的太空計畫"},{"start":8803.488,"end":8818.764,"text":"修正案裡面我們是在去年十月的SRV就是邀請產業界進來就做這個事所以目前國科會負責就是在產業端的部分 對嗎好 那沒關係 那我繼續請教一下就是說我想就是說我們 我有看到就是在"},{"start":8819.424,"end":8847.127,"text":"這個新聞裡面主委也有提到說我們要自主研發B5G衛星才2加4的策略由太空中心研發2顆民間研發4顆第一顆預計在2027年發射我認為這是一個很好開始但是我想確認一件事情就是到底6顆夠不夠因為根據太空中心的估計至少要120顆才能夠確保我們24小時的通訊不間斷所以我們6顆到底夠不夠第二個問題是我們有沒有一個中長期的衛星通訊計畫"},{"start":8848.601,"end":8874.923,"text":"有 我們規劃的就是說如果我們自主的衛星是要做科研用途那我們掌握衛星的設計跟製造的能力的話我們就有實力跟國際的這個新系的大廠合作然後我們台灣的產業就會進來因為才有量如果我們自主的發射的衛星不管是幾十顆 一百多顆要花非常非常多的錢是會排擠到我們很多其他經費可是呢 還是不夠"},{"start":8875.803,"end":8903.481,"text":"也真正要完整的星系要非常的多那美國政府也沒有自己做所以都是產業發展產業發展以後我們只要安全符合我們的需求我們都可以跟它合作所以將來我們可以使用的衛星是它整個星系我們都可以使用所以我們是有一個中長期的計畫應該會不止是六顆因為剛前面其實一開始你在這個說法也有提到說我們跟美國其實有在談我們雙方怎麼來合作對不對所以未來我們一個中長期的計畫對嗎"},{"start":8904.922,"end":8930.877,"text":"對 有專門企劃就是會跟他們合作合作包含租用他的衛星或頻段那如果是我們比較屬於要政府的服務的部分我們保證是一定有這個能力的然後在接下來就是商用的部分他們也要做台灣的生意他們也需要台灣的供應鏈那合作起來以後我們可以使用到他完整的這個信息所以我們更有保障所以我們目標是要在我們有目標要達成多少顆嗎在什麼時間點嗎 有這些目標嗎"},{"start":8933.018,"end":8952.037,"text":"我們的目標現在是六棵但是中長期計畫的目標是中長期計畫就是我們如果跟因為我們的這個三期現在那個延到2031嘛2031之後我們現在還沒有完全確定就是我們跟他開始合作以後我們如果規劃下一期的"},{"start":8952.995,"end":8967.696,"text":"好了解那我想我關於這聽起來有點像是主權我們也會打造自己的主權心系對不對自主的這個衛星的使用這個是屬於還是在國家比較機密的範圍好沒問題這個我不方便在這邊好沒問題好了解"},{"start":8968.557,"end":8993.447,"text":"那在下一個問題我想請教有關於前陣子我們陽管處有個大火這個大火就把我們燒了五個小時四點多公頃的生態區變成了焦土甚至波及了我們周邊北投萬里帶的空氣品質後來發現起火點是在國研院在陽明山設置的一個空氣品質感測器疑似離電池自然引發火災"},{"start":8994.867,"end":9010.203,"text":"所以我想我這邊看到說我們4月底其實拆掉了全台16組相同的一個感測器那我知道主委其實24號也自己去敞刊事發地點我想問一下這件事情是否已經完成調查確定是離電池自燃嗎"},{"start":9012.605,"end":9023.831,"text":"我們還沒有收到最後的結果但是跟消防局溝通聯絡他們初步的證據是從設備的鋰電池初步的證據那何時會有完整的報告呢?有預估嗎?"},{"start":9032.296,"end":9056.474,"text":"完整報告可能要看看六月有沒有辦法得到那個台北市消防局那邊確定的這個結果因為他還在調查還在約談廠商之類的好沒關係那我想請問一下因為據我所知好像你們現在其實有針對於高敏感區做一些清查跟盤列我們動作很快的那我想問一下我們現在有沒有定一些相關的風險管理的安全指引"},{"start":9056.914,"end":9079.453,"text":"有 現在是比較危險的就是鋰電池它在惡劣的環境之下比較容易極端氣候 惡劣是指極端氣候嗎 還是怎樣叫惡劣包含那個空氣 因為小約克那邊有腐蝕性的空氣那設備那個鋰電池滲漏等等引起的這個火災像這些東西事先我們沒有注意到"},{"start":9080.254,"end":9102.036,"text":"那接下來我們國務院現在都已經有一個完整的這個SOP修改過了對於這種設備在各種惡劣的環境之下要能夠承受多少的這個壓力那在裝置的環境之間有沒有可能造成更大危害好 我要解了這個等於是說我們其實現在已經做出了一個安全的指引面對不同的環境之下的一個應對方法"},{"start":9103.457,"end":9124.458,"text":"我想再問第三個問題就是陽管器的感測器其實在2024年底就已經計畫期滿可是都還沒有放就是還放在那裡沒有拆除是否有管理與監督的一個漏洞呢報告委員計畫中止其實並不代表那個設備不能用了因為他還繼續在收資料還提供給我們很多研究資料"},{"start":9127.1,"end":9153.268,"text":"所以計劃期滿到底是持續的計劃期滿之後你剛才還會繼續收資料可是維護的部分還會持續維護嗎因為這就牽扯到安全的問題這個的確是一個缺失可是你知道我們台灣人都很節儉節儉可是因為這會造成因為我們設備沒有去管理跟監督跟維護的時候就會造成今天這樣子的一個問題今天發生這個事情我們當然所有的程序我們都會修正"},{"start":9153.908,"end":9164.588,"text":"好 没关系因为我时间有限这一题我们再约时间来了解它后续我们到底会如何来解决面对这样子的问题但我想再问一个问题就是说"},{"start":9166.109,"end":9184.993,"text":"那這樣子我們把這個拆掉對不對因為我們本來還要收資料可是我們全部都拆了那又是基於什麼樣子的標準與風險評估呢會不會對我們的空氣的資料收集造成影響我們等調查確定結束以後我們當然還會再持續收資料因為這個對民眾安全非常重要對現在拆掉了所以不能裝因為還在調查調查結束以後我們會用一個最安全的方法"},{"start":9192.175,"end":9219.021,"text":"再啟動相關計畫那確保這個事情不要再發生這樣好 了解了解那我最後再請教一個問題就是有關於最近這個美國政府已經有發布了就是我們的哈佛大學招收國際生的資格被取消因為他們被控訴助長暴力而且反猶太而且與中國共產黨勾結所以呢他們會喪失合法的身份可是現在大概哈佛有6800名國際學生"},{"start":9221.081,"end":9236.071,"text":"所以這些學生目前就沒有辦法去那邊深造那現在其實很多的國家都已經把握了這個機會像是日本的文科學省就已經有呼籲國內的大學要來接收這些受影響的哈佛國際生"},{"start":9237.688,"end":9254.756,"text":"那東京大學啊 金路大學也其實都有在回應這件事情那我想問一下 我們準備好了要來搶這一批學生了嗎因為我們其實也有一些相關的計畫嘛要來招收國際的優秀的 不管是學生也好 研究者那我們目前有沒有一些具體的方案來吸引他們呢"},{"start":9255.579,"end":9277.733,"text":"其實我們過去在COVID-19的時期我們台灣幾個大學也都是很積極做類似的事情國科會絕對會支持只要我們的大學願意來接收我想的其實是國科會自己其實有一個外籍高階人才來台實習的試辦專案以前都會提供數百名的外國大學生研究生來台灣做一個短期的研究機會"},{"start":9278.974,"end":9290.801,"text":"那我們是不是可以透過這個機會呢 增加名額啦 增加經費啦 吸引他們可以來然後我們這邊留下來 未來也可以留在我們這邊變成科研人才啊好 這個是很好 我請李處長 科科處李處長跟委員報告 這個IEPP呢 它本身是一個月到三個月的短期的時間所以我們也會從這裡面去檢討看看"},{"start":9301.556,"end":9326.81,"text":"是有可行的嗎?你覺得?可行就是說更長期的我們都願意做啦更長期,所以我們是有可能在延長嘛對不對我們要趕快把這個對,因為我想這個都是優秀人才本來要去哈佛大學的耶,對不對我們要好好把握啊而且對我們的半導體AI生技都會非常有幫助當然這些學生都是很好的學生我們當然也會跟教育部來合作啦因為即使是要念學位我也希望各大學能夠放寬甚至名額能夠邀請他們過來"},{"start":9331.072,"end":9349.721,"text":"了解 那我們進一步再來跟國科會這邊來追蹤好不好那最後再用一分鐘時間就好一分鐘就是其實我們的科普活動上次我們去年在審預算的時候其實有提到說我們希望可以把台灣台語或其他國家語言放到我們的科普活動裡面不管是我們的科普列車也好"},{"start":9350.601,"end":9366.252,"text":"因為我認為國科會還是可以依據國家語言發展法來支持可是你們跟我們的回應是說你們有做中文跟英文啦可是我們講的其實是台灣台語好像有點牛頭不對馬嘴啦所以我想問一下這部分是不是可行因為我覺得國科會很有機會啊你們都為了視障者做了這樣子的書籍嘛對不對"},{"start":9366.852,"end":9389.511,"text":"非常感謝委員提醒我想我們在各種地區的語言盡量我們也可以融入那除了這個科普你今年的活動有沒有可能可以融入因為其實有很多母語家庭來講他們其實想要了解這些科學知識我來鼓勵我們理事長按照委員的這個建議好那我們再跟理事長要詳細的活動內容好不好好謝謝喔好謝謝委員"},{"start":9392.848,"end":9399.59,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員質詢部會官員請回座謝謝接下來有請郭玉琴委員質詢謝謝主席有請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝郭委員好"},{"start":9414.642,"end":9441.089,"text":"主委早安因為剛剛其實都有聽到大家對於這個小油坑的火災其實是非常非常的關注那同樣的我也是要來問這一題這是4月14號發生的這件意外那當然這個火勢呢歷時了大概是5個小時之後才撲滅那影響的面積大概有4.5公頃以上那我想這個主委也非常的關心在這裡也非常肯定就是主委在第一時間其實也到了這個現場去做這樣子的一個"},{"start":9443.37,"end":9450.194,"text":"現場的一個狀況的了解那我知道這個國科會轄下的一個跟這個國研院的國網中心設置的空氣品質感測器離電池過熱這個事件其實是相關的那我們在4月底之前也已經完成了大概有16處就是相關的這個離電池的感測器的一個全面的一個拆除那當然也"},{"start":9470.047,"end":9484.842,"text":"特別針對這一類的這樣子的一個設置也進行了一個盤點的工作那當然也非常的肯定你們這個態度其實很積極但是我想在整個所有的不管是災後的環境的一個變化"},{"start":9485.522,"end":9510.273,"text":"那尤其是這個地面的面積的它是影響到比方說植批的一個損毀或者是空氣品質的一個落差那有沒有考慮這個建構災後環境的一個感測系統以供之後可能早期可以預警或者是生態回復的一個規劃來做使用那或者是在這個部分我們有沒有眼裡中的一個管理的指引的一個草案那目前的進度又是如何"},{"start":9511.257,"end":9534.147,"text":"好 我們已經初步把各種監測的設備它要建置的時候它的規範有重新再檢視我們會讓未來建置的這個監測站它會更安全我們現在已經禁止使用鋰電池了因為鋰電池是比較危險的它在惡劣的天候狀況之下比較容易出狀況"},{"start":9538.569,"end":9564.928,"text":"整個建制的SOP 我們全部重新全面檢討所以不只國運院 我們所有的法人機構我們也都請他們重新檢視只要是做各種各樣的建制設備的工作要求廠商一定要follow我們新修改的SOP安全是最重要的一個條件"},{"start":9566.329,"end":9576.135,"text":"所以我剛剛講就是有沒有建構就是災後之後的環境的一個評估啦就是作為之後可能在這個預警的部分能夠作為一些參考或者是說我們的災後整個包含這個生態怎麼樣的回復的一個規劃來做有這樣子的一個系統的設計嗎"},{"start":9583.319,"end":9606.209,"text":"預警的部分我們目前是比較缺乏但是未來因為我們過去只是注重資料的收集環境資料的收集那至於這個設備有一些老舊可能會出現問題的這種預警那當然它的成本會比較高但是我想委員這個是一個很好建議我希望後來未來我們可以把它加入"},{"start":9607.029,"end":9625.435,"text":"至於災後現在在復原的部分我們第一天就跟陽明山國家公園管理處已經有一個非常明確的意願來協助未來復原的工作我們也邀請中興大學的教授也進來幫忙這種復原的工作現在在進行當中"},{"start":9630.036,"end":9656.716,"text":"可是陽廣處跟我們講說其實我們陽明山草山建築還有芒草它的根部其實並沒有被燒掉它生命力非常強我去看的時候的確新芽都冒出來了現在春雨開始進來以後我想它應該在一年內可以回復所以這個隨時就是把這次的火災的區域等於也是納入了國科會當中的天然災害的一個監測的系統"},{"start":9658.057,"end":9674.391,"text":"對 一個研究算是一個研究的案子所以也納入了你們在研究的一個系統也納入了那之後如果有什麼樣的一個精神再麻煩提供給我們好 謝謝委員那另外我想到就是這次的這個國科會的預算我們解凍案等一下也會處理那有22案"},{"start":9676.633,"end":9690.046,"text":"那當然其中這個17案是提出這個書面報告那另外的5案呢需要這個專案的報告那針對這個專報當中的一個4案其實國科會跟這個新竹中部以及南部的三個科學園區共編了大概是5億元的這個業務"},{"start":9691.907,"end":9712.762,"text":"那遭到凍結是百分之三十那我想另外還有這個特別費的部分是一百一十七萬是全數凍結那凍結的理由是對才化法的修法影響說明不足以及臉書的這個發言沒有提供佐證那同樣的也包含這個業務的效益沒有符合預期還有資訊揭露不足等等的一個疑慮"},{"start":9713.803,"end":9717.524,"text":"雖然新竹竹科在113年的營業額高達了1.5兆南科更是突破了2.2兆年增將近40%即使我們的業績很亮眼但是還是被質疑就是膨脹過快然後沒有能夠精實地來做檢討我想問的就是今年年初其實已經刪裂了大概有6%"},{"start":9737.068,"end":9748.902,"text":"那另外這30%的業務費如果沒有解凍的話我們對於國科會還有我們旗下的三大科學園區的管理的業務有沒有進行的這個應該說是至愛難行之處請主委說明一下其實"},{"start":9753.247,"end":9776.693,"text":"很多人可能會用這個金額或是他的比例來算但是業務費現在是很多是不能留用的不能流入那甚至人事會人事會其實我們現在公務員的聘任有時候是聘人要補退休的人力都很困難所以有時候我們人事會會有一點節餘那以這個理由來說我們經費過剩這個其實是也"},{"start":9782.395,"end":9803.066,"text":"也是很不公平的從主委的談話的節奏我們已經感受到摯愛難行是不是我是很拜託我們委員會能夠同意讓我們全數解凍因為業務費如果不足的話就好像你空有能力沒有武器可以做事情"},{"start":9803.886,"end":9831.56,"text":"那這是對我們是相當為難而且這些業務都很重要特別對園區我們園區剛剛委員提到我們園區的這個業績非常非常成長非常快那我們服務的人力是一直不斷要增加那業務的支出一定是要提升的真的不是只有像表面上就是金額的凍結其實還有很多的人力的部分還有包含我們的人才的培育的部分另外還有很多的甚至連水電可能都會有一些狀況都會有影響好 這個我們了解那等一下"},{"start":9832.32,"end":9859.46,"text":"我相信這個等一下其實可以請主委等一下再好好說明因為時間的關係我先問下一題好謝謝委員我想這個今年三月其實我就已經執行過這個國科會了就是我們針對所謂的低軌衛星的推動的一個進度也提出了我的看法跟關切我想2023年馬祖電纜的中斷地方幾乎是真的與世隔絕那也凸顯了我們在通訊基本的基礎的設施當中的一個高度的一個脆弱"},{"start":9860.08,"end":9880.279,"text":"那根據這個監察院的一個報告他說過去的五年當中其實總共發生了36起的海嵐受損的一個事故那在2025年的前兩個月就已經出現了四起那也就是相對來說衛星似乎已經被視為台灣對外通訊的一個最後一道的防線了"},{"start":9880.819,"end":9909.697,"text":"那我想要請教主委的是這個目前我們的福衛8號跟我們的這個B5G的低軌的衛星相關的時程是不是會如期的進行那另外我想問的是如果當海纜受損或者是通訊中斷的時候那我們的OneWeb通訊的一個能力有沒有辦法能夠支撐像是國內防災或者是醫療甚至金融上面一些關鍵的基礎設施的一個緊急的需求這個部分請教主委"},{"start":9909.977,"end":9924.635,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們規劃當中要發射的包含福威八號今年十月發射目前是按計畫在進行是那會如期嗎會如期十月十月OK那未來"},{"start":9926.056,"end":9952.295,"text":"5月8號未來每年一顆的規劃現在也是正常在運作當中至於我們第一顆的這個通訊衛星就是我們V5G的通訊衛星現在正在設計當中預計兩年後就是2027年會發射第一顆我們希望這個是按照這個規劃去進行至於剛剛委員提到說在緊急狀況的通訊的認識這一部分我們"},{"start":9954.697,"end":9978.913,"text":"國安會跟這個事務部也在有一個這個規劃在進行當中這個規劃現在中華電信也已經跟這個一家美國公司也簽約了就是這個公司可以提供高軌那個同步衛星來在緊急狀況之下提供我們足夠的政府要使用的這些品官從明年開始今年還是仰賴這個國安會"},{"start":9983.516,"end":9997.95,"text":"好 那最後一個問題就是目前我們台灣的低軌的通訊其實明顯是依賴這個OneWeb跟我們的Starlink那這個國客會是不是有評估過對於所謂的台灣國家主權的一個通信安全的一個風險這個部分有考慮嗎"},{"start":10000.525,"end":10018.717,"text":"國會的任務就是科技研發所以我們太空中心在太空三期所要做的事情我們是依計畫在進行當中我現在也剛剛宣布一個次世代通信的方案就是結合我們的產業發展未來我們產業實力上來以後我們會更有實力跟國際的夥伴來談談這個整個新系的使用我們將來使用的頻寬會依照我們的需求一定會足夠的"},{"start":10028.644,"end":10048.979,"text":"那我認為我們的產業發展現在非常迅速一定有實力來競逐太空賴總統講的競逐太空就是因為我們產業的實力才有辦法所以我們正在朝這個方向在努力那我們也期待喔那如果有更新的一些比較具體的一些計畫或進程可以提供給我們的我想可以提供的再提供給我們好謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":10053.708,"end":10057.752,"text":"謝謝郭育晴委員質詢 官員請回座接下來我們有請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請主委有請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":10074.513,"end":10094.88,"text":"主委好我其實跟這個太空發展法對我來講有一段故事蠻有感情那最主要是因為我在2020年2月1號進入到立法院我人生中第一次接受人民陳情是南田火箭案"},{"start":10095.8,"end":10123.426,"text":"所以我在2月19號的時候特別去跟他們見面我很驚訝我以為他們部落反對這個東西結果沒有想到部落的村長理事長部落會議主席甚至是鄉長議員他們都非常非常的贊同他們希望他們能夠擁有這個產業所以呢我人生中隔天第一次做"},{"start":10124.466,"end":10152.357,"text":"部會的協調也是為了南田火箭案甚至我人生第一次上質詢台第一次的質詢也是對科技部所以那個時候我認為要解決這個問題就必須要找到主管機關那所以當時呢就是希望科技部來做主管機關那後來呢就推動這個法制那為什麼我要特別這樣講因為我發現"},{"start":10153.837,"end":10175.668,"text":"我們在做這件事情的時候我們通常都會使用到原住民族的傳統領域他的土地所以可能很多時候我們不會不太知道我們有一些法令或者是要如何跟在地族人溝通我舉個例子當時的三月你們公告了一個"},{"start":10176.909,"end":10190.596,"text":"短期科研探空火箭發射場域的安全規範草案引起嘩然為什麼 因為你們沒有做部落智商那當地人呢 就非常的不高興"},{"start":10192.162,"end":10208.629,"text":"第二個當時也有一個影片在地方在傳就是某個立委他做了一個影片告訴大家說火箭有多可怕世界各個國家發展火箭有多可怕獨獨影片裡面就沒有中國"},{"start":10209.989,"end":10237.297,"text":"那我也幫助你們到地方讓他們知道不同類型的火箭長怎麼樣原來科研火箭沒那麼可怕所以呢也很謝謝你們就是最後我們在地的溝通做好了大家也很高興讓旭海成為我們科研火箭的發射場域那我現在為什麼要特別講因為當年我就有在立法的過程中特別去訴求"},{"start":10238.657,"end":10257.317,"text":"當時的院版第八條說涉及原住民族權益依原基法及相關法令辦理我當時有特別提醒不是只有原住民的問題而是在地居民我們不論到哪裡在地居民本來就應該要知情要參與所以我的版本"},{"start":10257.737,"end":10266.402,"text":"有特別提到 如果有限制人民權利 應事先說明及溝通 踐行充分民眾參與機制那非常感謝 後來我們的發射場域的這個執法有特別在第四條有去做這樣的一個修訂 就是要公告選址場址 舉辦公聽會"},{"start":10279.449,"end":10298.082,"text":"還要來書面通知除了機關團體還有利害關係人到場那我很感謝那當時第二個訴求就是在地產業的部分你們的願板當時是寫說政府應推動太空產業發展獎勵及輔導產業培育產業人才等促進太空產業發展事項我當時有特別提醒"},{"start":10305.819,"end":10329.47,"text":"不是只有培育這些產業人才要跟地方共融所以呢我希望像我的版本說要完善產業及周邊環境的發展所需要的基礎建設要僱用一定比例的在地人力要有地方產業鏈的營造在地產業生活圈那我也非常感謝後來的太空發展法第14條也有把這樣的意見納入到我們的條文當中好 那"},{"start":10334.412,"end":10361.786,"text":"我要跟主委還有太空中心主任說我今天之所以會講這個問題是因為在我們今天的解凍報告也有提到第一案我們已經在114年今年的3月26日選址作業的第四次審查會議已經確認也公佈了國家發射場域選定在屏東縣滿洲鄉的九鵬村可是我們來看一下這個地圖這個地圖"},{"start":10364.187,"end":10390.637,"text":"我們看一下 我們的國家發射場域滿洲鄉九棚村就在它的旁邊有一個高氏部落 它是屬於牡丹鄉有一個巴搖部落 它是屬於牡丹跟滿洲鄉的交界但是呢 它也是屬於滿洲鄉好 那我們再看另外一張地圖再放大一點看 它鄰近的部落還有科研火箭發射場域 蓄海"},{"start":10391.357,"end":10415.975,"text":"然後呢 再往前走 也是你們這次選址之一就是達仁鄉的南田你看 他們其實都在一個連帶上面是一個共同的生活圈可是 我們來看喔最近 我不知道主委跟太空中心主任有沒有掌握到地方有聲音囉在5月16號 有一個地方的青年意見領袖他寫了一篇貼文"},{"start":10419.577,"end":10445.819,"text":"那他說什麼呢 他說其實關於太空發射場域在我家附近的八瑤灣火箭發射基地喔他沒有講九棚發射基地喔 他講的是八瑤灣發射基地因為那個地方確實就是八瑤部落的出海口 八瑤灣"},{"start":10447.34,"end":10475.897,"text":"然後他說我不排斥地方的發展但我更重視地方協調與尊重所以他說火箭燃料會不會造成我們巴搖部落的空污我不知道部落賴以為生的紅土系河流火箭廠排出的廢水會不會影響這些魚蝦蟹回遊部落我不知道當火箭升空是正常航行嗎會不會掉落下來或失速掉到我的部落我不知道"},{"start":10476.377,"end":10502.688,"text":"我們在這場火箭場競賽的過程中我的部落扮演什麼角色我們也不知道所以地方是不知道 不知道 不知道但是他不是要阻礙產業發展他只是覺得說為什麼都沒有人跟我們講那這個問題發生在什麼呢因為我們看到園民會在3月11號有回函給牡丹鄉公所因為牡丹鄉公所他想問"},{"start":10504.312,"end":10530.697,"text":"到底這個有沒有涵蓋到我們牡丹鄉這個國家發射場域但是原民會回答他說這件事要由滿洲鄉確認因為我們是選定在九棚所以要由滿洲鄉確認現在牡丹鄉就回函給牡丹的代表會因為是地方的代表們想知道這件事所以他就把原民會的回答說原民會回答我們說這件事要問滿洲鄉代表會"},{"start":10532.597,"end":10547.177,"text":"那滿洲鄉有沒有問呢滿洲鄉也有問他問誰呢他問的是園民會園民會回答他說不用因為你們九棚不是原住民的部落所以不用所以一整個事情其實我只是要提醒"},{"start":10548.194,"end":10565.642,"text":"在地的溝通還是要充分做好那第二個就是我關心的從南田到旭海然後一直到現在的九棚它的附近八瑤高市那這些他們都是比鄰近的部落"},{"start":10566.562,"end":10582.342,"text":"他們 我們國科會有沒有太空產業生活圈的想像規劃那未來我們的太空產業鏈有南科 有平科到底到了我們那個地方是什麼樣的一個關係部落都很想知道"},{"start":10582.802,"end":10608.492,"text":"所以今天來這邊就是要特別的提醒是不是在地溝通的部分我們還是要來進行然後太空產業生活圈它目前的規劃情形還是要來說明所以我希望國科會 太空中心 園民會有沒有辦法就地方所關心的這些事情能夠來我們辦公室說明那當然我們更關心的是太空發展法有了它的未來"},{"start":10610.185,"end":10633.865,"text":"那我們剛剛也聽到就是大家很關心像40年前美國總統雷根他提到的太空站用衛星去摧毀衛星那現在已經變成一個真實的戰場那我們也很清楚知道地面上的世界越來越依賴太空中的軌道衛星所以我們很關心我們的太空發展法很關心我們的國家發射場域那未來"},{"start":10634.545,"end":10660.214,"text":"正規的戰爭開打之前的灰色地帶就是干擾或摧毀通訊那我是希望說台灣的太空計畫要尋求跟美國這一些太空強權要形成一個衛星通訊的互保機制那這些都是我們非常關心的但是萬戰高樓平地起我相信跟我們在地的溝通這個部分會影響我們未來整個太空的一個發展"},{"start":10664.095,"end":10692.104,"text":"那主委還有我們主任有在這邊有沒有一點點回應就可以好謝謝吳委員我想我們從頭到尾都是用非常開放的態度跟在地在溝通那因為依據這個屏東縣政府跟台東縣政府他們的這個要求我們所有的每一件事都做到了那吳委員現在提出來就是說我們還要再擴大跟這個鄰近的這個部落來溝通這一點我也答應謝謝主委"},{"start":10693.004,"end":10711.249,"text":"後續一定會辦到謝謝主委的建議至於這個發展照顧到這個生活圈在地適合的這種產業的發展這個其實本來就在我的規劃當中那各種各樣的建設以及產業的推動一定會按照這個委員的建議來進行謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝武力華委員質詢 歡迎請回座接下來有請林怡瑾召委質詢"},{"start":10727.474,"end":10732.484,"text":"謝謝主席 有請吳主委還有太空中心太空阿伯吳主任好 請吳主委吳主任備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":10741.151,"end":10756.899,"text":"主委好首先本席因為今天是處理解凍案所以本席還是要對於去年藍白提案大動我們各科學園區的預算業務費的這件事情表示最深的遺憾"},{"start":10757.739,"end":10764.866,"text":"因為科學園區的業務費我們都很清楚是它是直接 間接影響我們園區裡頭的廠商尤其是這個設備養護這種項目更是攸關這個關鍵設施的正常運作那"},{"start":10773.274,"end":10799.888,"text":"而且這是科學園區的這個凍結案去年國民黨在提案單上複製貼上被抓到所以當然很清楚知道就是說他們某程度把這個凍結案特別是這個項目當作是兒戲來看所以確實是感到很遺憾那我們一定是支持解凍那當然該有的監督也不會少所以"},{"start":10801.209,"end":10806.191,"text":"接下來就來進行我今天關心的議題那我仍然關心太空發展那因為賴總統有視察我們福衛八號的進展跟產業深耕計畫的成果那總統有說福衛八號在開發過程所累積的這個技術跟經驗會結合台灣的既有的資通訊啊 精密機械啊然後還有電機的產業優勢來協助這個太空發展"},{"start":10830.459,"end":10842.974,"text":"的產業來練兵來穩健整個我們邁向國際太空市場的腳步那我想第三期的國家太空科技發展長城計畫這個我們現在在致力推動"},{"start":10846.218,"end":10863.303,"text":"那據報導好像福衛八號的第一顆衛星也預計在今年的十月會正式升空服役那我想台灣太空的產業產值我想不比其他的太空大國可是我想根據太空中心的回應整體而言"},{"start":10865.243,"end":10874.467,"text":"每年的產值是逐年增加的那想要請教主委跟主任的是說隨著福衛八號的一顆衛星的升空我們未來是不是有更多的規劃來帶動國內太空相關產業的產值的提升"},{"start":10883.69,"end":10889.034,"text":"同時我們看到最近英國的工黨台灣之友會的訪團有要來台灣也要訪問太空中心所以我也想請教說我們到底近期有沒有跟國際的一些交流的規劃先主委回答再主任回答"},{"start":10901.681,"end":10926.053,"text":"好 謝謝委員的確我們這個福威八號是第一顆衛星我們陸續會打總共會有八顆那將來都是會我們支持的以前都大量仰賴美國現在都是我們自己設計自己製造目前支持率已經達到84%所以未來這個遙測衛星的技術台灣幾乎就可以完全自己掌握了"},{"start":10926.813,"end":10939.53,"text":"至於未來還有福衛9號,我們會把光學的探測,將來還會再加上合成孔徑雷達的技術,所以全天候都可以來監測我們的國土。"},{"start":10943.109,"end":10972.429,"text":"那個通信衛星的部分我們現在已經開始在設計了那兩年後就會開始打第一顆所以這個都按照我們的規劃在進行當中那其中跟國外的這種合作現在也因為我們的實力慢慢展現了所以更多的這個國際的合作的夥伴願意來跟台灣合作了我們如果沒有實力沒有人會來跟我們談所以實力在於我們產業的建置所以我們現在太空三喜的計畫修正案最大的亮點就是把我們的產業鏈慢慢把它組起來"},{"start":10973.669,"end":10997.225,"text":"臺灣的產業實力全世界都知道所以跟我們合作對他們一定會有好處的那我們也因為跟他們合作以後將來我們自主的設計能力也會提升所以這個是確保我們未來產業發展以及國家安全一個很重要的策略改變謝謝委員火箭的部分你來排我補充一下就是工黨他是今天下午會去太空中心訪問"},{"start":11000.166,"end":11023.071,"text":"對 除了這個以外 未來還有什麼要跟國際交流的計畫其實像火箭的研發我們採用的未來是液態引擎這一方面我想很多技術台灣其實不一定完全被變所以我們透過很多國際合作的方式來取得部分的技術讓我們更快所以我們往這方面一直在擴展一些國際合作好 謝謝"},{"start":11026.532,"end":11053.285,"text":"那再來想要跟主委探討這個運動科技的議題運動部要在今年9月9號就要掛牌那我想跟運科中心合作來進行運動科技的研發那來發展相關的產業然後並繼轉同時可以讓這個運科知識來普及全民我想這個是國科會任重道遠"},{"start":11054.245,"end":11061.008,"text":"那可是我們看到國科會持續執行這個精準運動科學研究專案暨擴大運科能量這個計畫而且我們今年並要用這個台灣運動文化研究專案計畫這個題目向學研增建那去年我在預算審查的時候也有提案就說我們要求運動科研的成果要普及這個全民那甚至要對身心障礙者有照顧"},{"start":11083.118,"end":11093.085,"text":"那所以我們要針對如何讓運科的成果來普及那首先要請教說未來我們除了相關的成果來寄轉給產業界那我們是不是也會會同運動部未來的運動部跟輔導地方政府體育局的相關局處來進行運科技術或知識的推廣"},{"start":11107.995,"end":11117.663,"text":"也就是說我們讓地方政府去執行讓技術跟成果可以深入這個地方社區然後再來就是說國科會的這個所謂的科普環島列車是不是也來加入說因為他加入這個容易推廣的這個運科知識跟小朋友做介紹 以上幾個問題"},{"start":11127.972,"end":11141.85,"text":"好 非常感謝林委員林委員其實上次的這個建議我們都納進來了我們現在除了在運動科技這種科技研發的計畫持續在推動之外我們的確也是在文化面希望把這個運動跟文化能夠結合因為讓人民"},{"start":11145.655,"end":11167.379,"text":"更願意去親近這個運動更願意從事運動所以全民運動的部分我們透過這個科技的發展創造很多的那個工具跟這個方法讓民眾更容易使用這個運動的場域來增進自己的這個技能那以及我們在這個應用跟產業的發展也希望能夠創造我們的科技業願意來把運動這個領域能夠變成是它的市場"},{"start":11173.94,"end":11195.194,"text":"它的市場發展更多的科技產品來協助這個運動的發展那剛剛有提到說運動部的成立我的確也是除了我們國科會在支持學界之外我也支持將來運動部現在還在體育署就是我們國家運動科學中心我也支持他們將來要進到這個運動科技領域來做這個科技技術的開發協助我們的運動員以及我們產業的發展這一部分我們都遵照委員的建議"},{"start":11204.14,"end":11220.373,"text":"好 那科普環島列車科普環島列車把運動科技加進來這個其實我也跟我們的那個李處長也提了所以我們也會邀請相關的這個團隊會進來特別是那個在台南有個環球球實驗室那我們會邀請他們進來好 謝謝 謝謝那另外再接一點時間來討論一下就是說"},{"start":11229.039,"end":11255.471,"text":"我有注意到國科會有根據行政院一個六大核心戰略產業推動的方案國防及戰略產業我們會持續來推動所謂的學研中心的專案計畫那它是以跨校跨領域的建置推動國防科技的研究平台來進行所謂的智慧國防科技研發可是同時我們是知道說因為國防科技的應用也要顧及國安"},{"start":11256.972,"end":11264.373,"text":"那國防部近期要嚴密設置接觸機密資格認證的機制就是說未來將以涉密的等級來定期查核以防止滲透那舉例來說像無人機跟衛星的研發它都是所謂的國家核心科技戰略產業那萬一在研發跟應用的過程某個環節的關鍵資料被洩漏那後果當然不堪設想那所以我有疑問的是說"},{"start":11285.297,"end":11296.222,"text":"軍民兩用的科學技術太多所以部分國防科技的納管就相當重要我們知道說國科會有建立國家核心關鍵技術保護的清單用來強化國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密的保護那不過說在這個智慧國防科技研發的學研階段我們是不是有將類似國防部這種接觸機密資格認證的機制"},{"start":11312.849,"end":11326.158,"text":"或者說國科會現在有沒有相關的法令來規範國防科技研發的這種機密的查核我們現在按照行政院的規範有在進行當中現在都有這個機密的查核都有謝謝主委非常感謝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":11340.153,"end":11346.515,"text":"謝謝林益錦召委質詢 官員請回座接下來有請葉元之委員質詢來 請國會主委 謝謝請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":11363.459,"end":11389.411,"text":"主委好我們現在關心一下我們留學生因為我們留學生要去美國美國現在對於留學生簽證的政策一變再變了最新由他們的媒體的報導說川普已經下令全球的美國大使館立刻停止為外國學生安排簽證面試已經安排的不受影響了但是他們已經不接受預約了除非就是要先針對這些申請人來進行"},{"start":11391.164,"end":11410.539,"text":"社交媒體的審查可能說在這個審查過後才會繼續預約啦那主委我不知道因為國科會也有在補助很多我們的學生出國留學嘛你們去掌握一下他現在要進行社交媒體審查是要審查什麼啊怎麼樣的內容是不會被他通過的"},{"start":11412.431,"end":11440.102,"text":"對 這個我們會關注啦我們希望不是真的全面性 而且長時間希望只是短暫的一個我覺得你們那個相關的單位應該去了解一下嘛因為他的政策現在變來變去啦我們從一些報章雜誌報導看到美國川普現在正在針對哈佛嘛主要是兩個原因啦我知道主委你有沒有去看至少我看到的是說第一個是哈佛他們覺得什麼反猶太主義嘛"},{"start":11441.303,"end":11455.139,"text":"這第一個啦第二個是川普現在在打擊DEI嘛對不對那我不知道說這個是不是跟這些社群媒體的內容他審查有關我不知道主委你們對 有沒有去協助一下"},{"start":11456.625,"end":11470.991,"text":"我們當然沒有辦法了解美國政府他要做因為這個會有影響我剛剛講的問題就是說現在有一些國會已經補助了那些學生假設還沒有安排到預約然後他要接受社群媒體的審查"},{"start":11472.979,"end":11492.613,"text":"這個要因應啦我會不會說因為他社群媒體什麼樣的狀況AIT或是美國認為不OK簽證就不發了那我們這個人才沒辦法出國進修我們會因應這個變化如果是真的話那接下來怎麼協助可能我們對劉先生好按照委員的建議我們會積極來進行這是我們跟你們要資料啦"},{"start":11498.758,"end":11505.284,"text":"114年核定補助美國總共有124名學生喔博士95名有51名還沒出發29名有22個還沒出發"},{"start":11509.266,"end":11528.504,"text":"那另外還有科學及技術人員國外的短期研究有64名但是有38名未出發這個可能國科會也要去問一下我們來瞭解一下他們現在有的是已經拿到簽證了嗎還是還沒拿到簽證好不好這個去關心一下好 謝謝委員提醒第二個我想問一下國科會有關於用電的問題"},{"start":11531.587,"end":11551.296,"text":"之前國會會在2025年行政院科技顧問會議總結處理原則提出一個預估說在2050年的時候因應很多我們科技的發展到時候總電力需求會到5000億度是當時是由國會會執行秘書張正豪他指出來的那這個張正豪執行秘書他講說"},{"start":11556.892,"end":11574.095,"text":"未來我們的能源如果沒有核能的話大概還可以靠太陽能、風電、地熱未來可以進口綠青、綠鞍等等我覺得這個國會會議裡面我去評估一下這個能源的預估會不會太過樂觀你知道我們現在才多少度嗎"},{"start":11575.327,"end":11598.162,"text":"是 我們現在2500億度你說需求吧 需求其實按照我們現在產業的發展所以我們現在看這個表格我們現在整個台電系統發電量是2500億度換言之 這個資料是去年的所以去年那時候還有核電換言之我們在205你要加倍 要加倍"},{"start":11599.417,"end":11625.867,"text":"那我們其實可以針對一項一項能源來看比如說太陽能其實主委你可以去看太陽能最近的發展已經趨緩了他的暗場慢慢會飽和 對已經慢慢飽和了風電 風電也有一些危機啦為什麼 因為也是川普啊川普罵風電是垃圾所以國際有一些大廠可能會減少對風電的投資再來大家一直講綠能一直講綠能"},{"start":11628.297,"end":11646.342,"text":"新型綠能說兩個嘛一個地熱一個氫能地熱我的了解現在做專探專探到有一些已經開採的地熱其實佔發電量都很小這也是有一些風險再來就是有關氫能"},{"start":11647.962,"end":11663.427,"text":"氫能我可以問一下主委,氫能應該是不會增加發電量嗎?之前那個中研院他們講說,他們在研究一個四年的氫能研究計畫,到時候是做跟天然氣發電基礎的橋接啊,它是減碳,它並不是說有了氫能多的話呢,可以讓發電量增加,"},{"start":11670.669,"end":11696.803,"text":"所以我覺得你這樣子看喔在沒有核電的情況之下你要在2050讓我們的電double翻倍到5000億度主委你覺得有可能嗎因為這個跟國會雖然說那個是台電的事啊但國會是輔導國內科技發展嘛科技用電息息相關的所以這個部分你有沒有自己也去研究一下要給經濟部正確的建議啊"},{"start":11697.953,"end":11721.151,"text":"那個經濟部都一直在做相關的這個評估,那國會是在相關的這個新能源的開發,我們一直在努力在...是哪一方面的新能源開發?好,剛剛其實我也有提到,氫能的部分現在其實有其他的這個方法,就是SOFC,就是Solid Oxide Fuel Cell,就是一個新的這個做法,它是不用靠燃燒的,它是沒有排碳的,"},{"start":11721.451,"end":11742.244,"text":"但它目前的成本我們還在評估當中這是一個新的但是濾清我們需要是濾清濾清的這個進口或者是用安的形式轉成安比較穩定它的進口來取代未來的這種逐步啦你覺得清能如果順利發展我們是期望可以順利發展"},{"start":11743.684,"end":11772.444,"text":"第一個它什麼時候可以商轉第二個它可以增加多少發電量現在商轉小規模的已經有了至於大量的商轉未來整個市場的供應端還需要再評估可能從綠電過剩的國家他們會把它轉成氫來賣給需要綠能的這些國家這是一個可能性主委我只是提醒我覺得大家對於這個能源也都不要自欺欺人"},{"start":11773.284,"end":11795.147,"text":"就像譬如說一直講說政府一直講說我們不排除用那個SMR但是不排除不排除可是又一直不去設立核廢的最終處理廠所以光核廢這個問題社會就很難達到共識所以這都是志氣氣人的說法我覺得很務實的我們一定要找到新的能源"},{"start":11795.948,"end":11811.951,"text":"否則的話科技發展會遇到很大阻力嘛同意所以像為什麼黃文勳你看黃文勳就說台灣需要更多電力然後說要投資核電黃文勳就背一堆人背一堆反核的不知道是誰啦就出征啊還說他是中共同路人"},{"start":11812.469,"end":11822.703,"text":"人家是業界對電力擔心嘛像美國商會每一次建言裡面也有都說去使用核電嘛好那最後我問一下因為這個是國安會有科學園區的擴電計畫嘛本來是"},{"start":11828.689,"end":11844.36,"text":"有兩個一個是希望在2036年可以新增1000公頃的用地另外後來又新增2050年希望新增用地可以到3000公頃但這環拼裡面有一些狀況我們來看一下第一個也是跟用電有關"},{"start":11847.67,"end":11873.946,"text":"這個應該是經濟部的建議經濟部建議說要宣導廠商製成使用燃料採用新興能源還有第二個是要評估50%屋頂可以用面積建置太陽光電然後還有一個還有一個是也是經濟部的建議說希望國會以後這些用地可以預留用地設置自用發電設備及儲能系統甚至於要預留用地以興建電廠"},{"start":11875.745,"end":11895.88,"text":"然後這個電廠就台電公司或民營電廠都可以啦還有輸配電系統就是變電站那我看國會的回覆直接是回覆不可能那我就也是很好奇一個很務實的問題你看國科會現在如果要新設用地都被經濟部要求說在裡面要設電廠"},{"start":11897.789,"end":11910.563,"text":"這透露出什麼樣的訊息啊 主委以目前的電廠的方式要放在園區裡面當然是不可能為什麼經濟部會提出這種要求呢經濟部當然是希望說將來用電的"},{"start":11912.705,"end":11938.127,"text":"非常大的這些事業希望他們能夠自力發電所以民營的電廠進來未來也許是可行這種民營的電廠小規模的模組化的電廠我剛提的那個氫能源那種做法是一個可能性那至於SMR未來有沒有這個可能性我們會去評估會去研究那地熱是屬於比較大規模的那種其實主委這個"},{"start":11940.109,"end":11964.911,"text":"我看到這個環評他們的建議我就知道啦其實經濟部也很擔心電力不足啦所以我跟你講我真的希望國會會可以本於科技理性這樣的角度提供正確就都不要大家都欺騙就都自欺欺騙說哪一個我們可以沒問題不會缺電大家放心但務實的討論其實處處你都會看到大家對缺電的擔憂啦我們會進行研究會去評估他的感情謝謝好謝謝韋揚"},{"start":11970.833,"end":11991.955,"text":"好 謝謝葉元之委員質詢 官員請回座好 現在處理解凍專案報告五案請議事人員宣讀並進行討論"},{"start":11996.877,"end":12002.682,"text":"依國家科學及技術委員會函為依四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該會業務費凍結預算百分之三十專案報告請查照案"},{"start":12007.247,"end":12030.84,"text":"二 國家科學集計事務委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該會基本行政工作維持預算凍結專案報告請查詐案三 國家科學集計事務委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送新竹科學園區管理局業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告請查詐案四 國家科學"},{"start":12032.284,"end":12054.434,"text":"及技術委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送中部科學園區管理局業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告請查詐案五國家科學及技術委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送南部科學園區管理局業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告請查詐案宣讀完畢"},{"start":12058.24,"end":12074.507,"text":"好 謝謝那我想我們就主案進行討論那我們這個解凍專案報告的第一案那頁次是第239頁那請問各位委員有無意見239頁那我們給大家一點時間"},{"start":12088.186,"end":12111.073,"text":"那在這個大家翻閱的過程那本席對於這個案件也有幾個問題想要就教於這個國科會因為在240頁裡面有提到就是說為提升資訊服務品質和作業效能有規劃導入人工智慧那當然這是一個良善的做法但是我也想要詢問一下因為"},{"start":12112.674,"end":12132.014,"text":"這個近期AI越來越聰明那雖然國科會有頁面上面網站上是有寫有放一個這個行政院所屬機關機構使用真誠式AI的參考指引的一些說明但是我覺得未來可能會有越來越多的這個可能發生需要"},{"start":12133.255,"end":12157.389,"text":"這個事宜的一個情況我想稍微請教一下就教一下然後待會能不能請主委或者同仁來回應一下那這邊有幾個問題第一個就是因為有提到說可能用導入AI那我想問說國客會內部現在自己的規定公文傳送或者是繳交報告比如說給我們的這個解凍報告寫得很棒"},{"start":12158.129,"end":12171.109,"text":"那你們內部有沒有一些指引或規範是說同仁用AI寫可不可以這是第一個第二個因為裡面也有寫到說要這個你們很辛苦啊每年都審查老師寫的這個國科會的計畫案嘛"},{"start":12173.752,"end":12192.179,"text":"那我想請教第二個問題就是說老師或學生用AI來寫國會計畫的補助案來申領補助可不可以用AI來寫這個結案報告可不可以有沒有規範這是第二個問題那第三個其實這個產業跟這個"},{"start":12196.949,"end":12218.9,"text":"有可能也會來跟國科會來做合作國科會也可能會委辦一些產業來進行那現在我們也看到就是有很多這個公司他可能其實程式碼或者是內容都是用AI來寫的那如果本來計劃裡面寫說要做這個做那個"},{"start":12219.92,"end":12245.252,"text":"不管是人型機器人或非人型機器人他說我有10個人力20個人力寫的說看起來洋洋灑灑的可是有可能他最後錢拿了只是叫一個AI去寫那用這種方式來做我們國科會有沒有能力去查核就是說他跟你講了10個人力20個人力結果根本就是花"},{"start":12246.252,"end":12271.268,"text":"一千美金用AI去寫了這個Sam Altman已經講了未來可能一個人的公司就可以創造十億美金的產值所以我想問的這三個問題可能會依據因為我們現在要編列預算我們預計這個工作量是很龐大的但是我們有沒有預測到我們可能會遇到這樣的問題產業界或者是學界或者我們剛剛提到的國科會內部"},{"start":12272.782,"end":12287.829,"text":"這幾個問題你們內部的情況是什麼如果沒弄清楚說不定我們編了太多的錢或我們編了太少的錢這個我們想要了解一下這是我的問題不好意思那好像有委員也有疑問這個有一件那個武力華委員謝謝"},{"start":12288.871,"end":12307.797,"text":"好 謝謝主席關於這個第一案我先言明在先非常支持解凍啦最主要是說因為這個當中也去處理到一些學術研究界的需求那我就延續我過去質詢的關心就是我很期待就是像"},{"start":12309.6,"end":12335.005,"text":"淨零碳排的話就是希望能夠去做像跟原住民族地區如何接軌那累計了那麼多的這些研究計畫我一直很關心就是怎麼樣可以到成立一個學門讓原住民族的研究有方法論知識論慢慢提煉出來所以我希望說第一個希望國歌會是不是來考慮辦一個南島民族的期刊"},{"start":12336.045,"end":12351.259,"text":"或是原住民研究期刊或者是台灣學研究期刊讓這些年就是散落各處的這些原住民研究的paper它能夠收攏那像國科會有在辦"},{"start":12352.54,"end":12378.277,"text":"東亞科技與社會研究國際期刊所以我是希望說能不能夠有這樣子朝向這個期刊那第二個就是我也很期待就是有系統的培育我們這些學者研究團隊要跨領域跨時代還有做知識的實踐者那總之我就是希望說國科會能不能夠往這個方向提出一些具體措施讓我們知道 謝謝"},{"start":12380.148,"end":12382.493,"text":"好 那我們請主委或者同仁回答 謝謝"},{"start":12385.35,"end":12413.392,"text":"主席剛剛提到的這個建議就是我們在AI的應用上面特別是在公務機關包含公文書等等這些的使用是不是有規範或者是在鼓勵那我覺得因為現在大型元模型的確是對於我們在文書的處理上面是可以節省很多人力但是我們擔心的就是裡面會不會有風險這個事情"},{"start":12415.373,"end":12430.785,"text":"這兩個我們都要兼顧我們現在對於比較屬於機敏的文書我們是禁止使用對於一般的事務性的文書我們現在並沒有限制至於委員提到茶盒是不是使用AI"},{"start":12432.025,"end":12454.511,"text":"譬如說我們講產業的發展,我們都在鼓勵要使用,減少人力,因為人力不足都在使用那媒體業者等等,甚至在學校教授也鼓勵學生在使用,不管是coding還是在做報告等等那會不會有什麼學術倫理等等,這些議題其實非常複雜,那是不是該鼓勵還是該禁止都會有"},{"start":12455.171,"end":12483.331,"text":"正反不同的意見所以我們後續會再研議一下看看在避免風險的狀況之下怎麼樣鼓勵使用因為鼓勵使用才會讓AI發展得更快所以這一點我就先跟主席報告吳委員提到的國科會其實是非常支持國會自己不會辦期刊不會辦期刊因為我們是公務機關但是我們會支持學界如果願意來辦"},{"start":12484.352,"end":12494.368,"text":"包含南島原住民等等的期刊那個學界願意提出來來做這個事我們會支持跟吳委員報告好好 范瑀委員"},{"start":12496.101,"end":12505.847,"text":"我的部分是在書面報告的部分那我是支持解凍那我其實只有三個案子有兩案我待會在質詢的時候就會更深入的去問那沒有質詢的那個就是關於學門調整在你們這個白色報告的第四頁那那個國會聯絡人員有跟我們講你們詳細的那個會議的內容那我對於你們現在關於學門調整的SOP"},{"start":12523.817,"end":12552.586,"text":"的大象上我覺得是OK的那怎麼樣透過諮詢然後學門的什麼副省委員的討論然後取得共識最後再請主委就是說確定是OK的那但是這個部分因為它像起來像是個PPT的內容是不是可以把它文字化那之後文字化的版本再讓我辦公室看一下好不好那解凍沒問題我就提一個就是說一個進一步的意見好嗎好 我們遵照委員的指示好 那謝謝 我的發言完畢"},{"start":12554.662,"end":12577.49,"text":"因為我剛剛的問題其實我覺得我也支持解凍但是我想對於機關在執行業務上我們還是要有更多的釐清因為我覺得剛剛我比較得到的答案是比較模糊但我先問因為照主委剛剛的回應我們其實不能主委您是不是不能保證這個解凍報告的報告書同仁有可能是用AI寫的"},{"start":12579.904,"end":12587.754,"text":"我沒有辦法檢查我只能信任他們啦我相信沒有那寫的時候有沒有請同仁要注意不要用AI啊"},{"start":12588.936,"end":12617.466,"text":"好 如果都不要用AI我們人數會很慢沒有啦 其實我覺得我們只是希望提醒因為真的現在馬上那個國科會計畫啦結案啦 申請啦國科會計畫老師或學生他們可能沒有這個意識但他可能覺得AI很好用他用AI來寫國科會計畫申請專案那這算不算一種詐欺這有沒有問題其實沒有規範嘛那審查的老師用AI來審"},{"start":12618.906,"end":12619.046,"text":"我請我們總會處長來回答"},{"start":12639.099,"end":12656.611,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實這兩年來一直有在宣導就是希望所有的PI在寫研究計畫之後第一個他要為他的計畫負完全的責任他可以使用AI的工具但是他要在他的計畫書裡面去揭露那另外我們也透過審查的機制來做把關因為我們審查國科會研究計畫其實著重的是科學跟原創性"},{"start":12658.653,"end":12675.085,"text":"那如果沒有揭露他會有責任嗎我想沒關係我覺得不耽誤大家的時間其實我只是想要呼籲就是說我們有業務的預算那業務在執行上面其實有很多的細節要考量我們不希望有老師或學生的權益因此受損那因為"},{"start":12677.106,"end":12698.405,"text":"有的老師寫的很辛苦啊就別的老師花200塊美金一個月的月費AI按一個鈕就全部跑出來我們現在說他有點錯誤也許以後不會有錯誤出來結果他AI寫的拿到了專案結果拼命寫的拿不到專案甚至連結案報告我覺得那您說有要揭露不揭露有什麼關係嗎那我想這個我想這個希望"},{"start":12701.107,"end":12725.568,"text":"是不是可以一個月內提供一個相關的報告因為剛剛主委有說嘛您在陸續的這個提出來可是我覺得這個需求恐急啦所以是不是一個月不夠可不可以三個月這真的不然我覺得我們大家人心惶惶不知道怎麼來評斷像我看到裡面沒有揭露啊那會不會可是我剛剛又問說是不是有用AI您說不確定這個"},{"start":12726.94,"end":12747.848,"text":"好我們三個月好我們好三個月好謝謝那我想我們這個第一案還有沒有委員有意見好那如果委員第一案沒有意見的話我們第一案就准予動之提報院會好謝謝那我們接下來處理第二案頁次是243頁那請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":12754.946,"end":12780.422,"text":"好 五金娃委員弱弱的問一下那個解凍報告裡面因為你們有自己寫到說有受到才化法的影響那我這邊就是也會擔心說因為我們原住民族研究在國客會的經費一年有五千八百多萬所以有很多原住民的學者他也會擔心會不會受到影響就了解一下就好 謝謝"},{"start":12784.837,"end":12809.917,"text":"如果裁划法修正案還是沒有辦法解套的話我想大部分的計畫或多或少都會受到影響我想是明年不是今年那這部分我當然是希望能夠順利地圓滿地解決我知道我們這個委員會委員對國科會其實沒有"},{"start":12810.638,"end":12824.089,"text":"不會對我們有很大的意見因為我們服務的是全國的學界以及科學園區這個對整個國家的發展都非常重要我們希望不會受到影響"},{"start":12828.231,"end":12843.809,"text":"那謝謝主委我想這一點呢因為這個第二案呢我是有提出一些想法的所以我想我這裡也跟您提出一下就是其實這個部分我們有相關的凍結呢"},{"start":12845.775,"end":12863.228,"text":"也是因為財化法的這個相關的過程當中其實各界很關注那其實這個分配呢是還沒有確定的那剛才稍早柯政委員在質詢的時候其實就有提到其實你們是在去年的年底呢就有發文"},{"start":12864.449,"end":12877.939,"text":"那相關現在的網頁上面寫的也是說114年度恐受影響所以我想其實當年在寫的時候其實您剛剛也承認這可能寫可能應該是115年度那我想這個"},{"start":12879.6,"end":12903.054,"text":"我覺得作為一個台灣在科研上面的最高的機關我想這個正確性理性真的是很重要所以我覺得兩點第一點是能不能稍微檢視一下如果現在在這個國客會的網頁上面有資訊錯誤的地方是不是能勘證一下也不要引發這個大家的誤會這是第一點那第二點是"},{"start":12904.716,"end":12918.956,"text":"這是我作為這個案件的關係人我想提出來想要強調的是其實我覺得部會尤其是國科會用推估可能恐獸"},{"start":12920.418,"end":12935.319,"text":"等等的這種描述的方式我相信可能不是主委的本意啦但是可能你們的宣傳單位或文傳單位用這樣的一個方式在一件事情還沒有抵定之前還有溝通的機會還正在盤點"},{"start":12936.901,"end":12950.52,"text":"不管是行政院在盤點還是這個法令大家雙方在溝通還包含地方政府其實如果在還不確定的情況之下就用這種推估可能恐受而且都是比較是負面的會提到說"},{"start":12952.683,"end":12980.923,"text":"科研会受到影响啊大家会怎么样我觉得这种论述当然我尊重主委您内在的思想自由您的言论自由可是因为国客会应该是一个行政中立的机关同仁在对外表达也应该要是以一个中立的论述所以如果您在的作为一个行政机关行政机关的门面在对外沟通的时候如果不是以一个中立的形式我觉得会引发民众的这个"},{"start":12983.104,"end":13007.631,"text":"會有過度的擔憂我覺得這個也對科研人員不太公平所以主委能不能第二點就是說能不能承諾未來就不要用這種方式來溝通那我想我們解凍這個專案我想我們大家都有一致的想法那這個是不是可以來回應一下謝謝我們可以承諾那對於已經揭露的資訊如果有一些不正確的要改的我們回去我們會檢視一下會來調整"},{"start":13010.216,"end":13036.89,"text":"好 非常謝謝主委好 那我想這個第二案請問各位委員有無意見好 謝謝那如果這個案子委員沒有意見的話我們就准予動之 提報院會那我們接著處理第三案第三案的頁次是247頁那有沒有委員有意見好 那林怡瑾召委然後郭玉琴委員 劉淑冰委員 謝謝"},{"start":13038.473,"end":13062.008,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想因為三四五案是同樣都是科學園區的業務費的凍結案所以我就一邊來講啦當然我是相當的支持因為唯有盡速解凍我們才能有利於科學園區的營運發展這我剛剛諮詢有特別提告那我現在是想要針對一些問題做一些這個叮嚀跟提問就是說我們園區零費處理廠"},{"start":13068.372,"end":13077.241,"text":"因為我們看到中科已經有一個資源循環再生中心各園區也要積極推動事業廢棄物循環利用不過我們距離事業廢棄物"},{"start":13083.326,"end":13099.717,"text":"在那個什麼在利用率的百分百的目標可能還有一個距離所以我想說不曉得主委你對於這樣的一個目標怎麼達成你的看法怎麼樣然後有什麼期許"},{"start":13100.638,"end":13116.44,"text":"其實國會努力有兩個面向一個面向就是我們在原區我們是按照現在中科的模式我們已經要求我們的旗艦廠商也在南科也要做同樣的事情那這個事情"},{"start":13117.321,"end":13140.435,"text":"因為新的技術一直不斷在發展我相信我們的廢棄物回收率會越來越高將來要朝百分之百現在我們發現說因為努力的結果我們在南科最後處理完的現在都正在建設當中但是已經一面在回收了處理完的廢棄物真正把它固化以後"},{"start":13141.135,"end":13163.481,"text":"要運出去的量已經是比以前我們期待的還要變得更少了所以這個進步很快那未來我們希望在所有的園區我會努力在這個方向希望讓民眾的疑慮可以降到最低這樣子謝謝委員好 請郭玉琴委員我想這個"},{"start":13165.57,"end":13182.231,"text":"這個第二案剛剛其實我在質詢的時候我有特別也特別提到了我想這個竹科呢身為我們的這個國家科技產業的戰略的一個高地啦那雖然它的應該是說它的執行率算是高的所以當然這一案我也是支持可以解凍啦"},{"start":13183.412,"end":13200.742,"text":"但是我想要請教的就是說竹科現在在跟這個國際的合作上面有沒有一些具體的一個目標因為我想這一案其實也關係到這個園區的一個管理的業務還有招商跟國際的一個合作所以這個部分有沒有一個具體的一個說法可以提供給我們"},{"start":13202.271,"end":13227.145,"text":"我們竹科現在是全世界的標杆所以其實我們跟國際之間的往來是非常頻繁非常密切的也一直被邀請要到國際的他們要發展園區的話去協助他們去指導他們當然我們不能幫外國的政府去開發園區但是我們在這種協助的過程當中其實會把我們的廠商"},{"start":13228.328,"end":13240.691,"text":"原區開發的這些廠商順便也會帶過去所以其實也增加我們對外的這種產業連結的實力所以這一點的確很謝謝委員我們會努力來協助我們的產業能夠往外拓展那這個會幫我們連結很多友善的國家將來會跟台灣會合作"},{"start":13253.915,"end":13265.023,"text":"那這個科學園區之外我們其實也連帶了經濟部的科技園區也同步在進行當中劉素冰委員"},{"start":13266.311,"end":13290.776,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個案子345案子是涉及到竹科中科跟南科那我們在三個科技部的國科會的案子就是科學園區的案子當中只看到在中科這邊有出現淨零排放循環經濟剛才國務卿委員有提到叫循環經濟可是最重要的因為主委你也提到說是"},{"start":13291.736,"end":13299.101,"text":"科學園區呢是我們科技跟產業發展的這個國際的標竿產業的園區嘛對不對可是2050年的淨零碳排這邊怎麼沒有提到在你們目標當中是忘記還是怎麼樣那我就想說你們沒有在你們淨零碳排當中寫在報告當中沒有呈現那我就想說請問一下先就竹科來講的話你們淨零碳排的目標要放進去那有的話你們淨零碳排目標是什麼"},{"start":13318.433,"end":13322.202,"text":"目前的竹科尤其是他知道是耗水跟耗電的產業都集中在半導體的產業在那邊那你們的這個目標是怎麼定的"},{"start":13328.226,"end":13351.921,"text":"我請管理局長來回答好 謝謝謝謝委員的提問第一個我先講這個竹科我們在今年下半年有一個資源再生中心的運作這是廠商的部分第二個我們在資源再利用的部分竹科已經達到93%所以我們今年的目標是盡量減少掩埋第三個我們也在推廣跟園區所以我們大概有11家已經承諾在2040年R1-100它會提前達到"},{"start":13355.703,"end":13383.39,"text":"所以我們一直在跟廠商有新的技術或者是廠商能夠大廠帶小廠相關的技術我們一定在配合事實上這有十餘家廠商他有承諾像環球晶圓台積電他們都事實上都提前承諾達到2040年或是更早之前達到這個R100的部分我們看到的是現在我可以問一下就是在排碳的部分耗電的部分"},{"start":13384.719,"end":13395.15,"text":"竹科站全台灣是多少然後這邊的排碳量是排碳量到底是多少那你們怎麼去達成你們還是其中一個目標可是如果到2050年的話你們有沒有這樣一個路徑圖在這邊呈現出來"},{"start":13396.957,"end":13420.133,"text":"排碳大概有幾個 第一個範疇一 範疇二 範疇三直接的電力的部分 我想很多廠商是用綠電去購買綠電憑證來取代第二個跟委員在辦公室說明 我們曾經一直廠商能夠有綠電或是其他的替代能源的部分廠商非常樂意去做使用跟採購"},{"start":13421.575,"end":13430.196,"text":"國科會好像還沒有拜訪我國科會這邊那張書你們當初有講到這個淨零碳排這裡我記得好像不是您您是新準備要就任嗎對"},{"start":13432.131,"end":13460.069,"text":"這部分我覺得應該逐漸的呈現出來年度的排碳的量呈現出來或不然就要RE100等等要呈現那耗水的部分雖然你們有節水的部分可是你們這邊也沒有在說只有在中科有說中科事實上是沒有說的這個是不是可以事後我們把電跟節水的資料補送到委員辦公室謝謝那另外的中科的部分同樣的就是在耗電的部分"},{"start":13460.874,"end":13488.579,"text":"是跟委員報告一下我們現在目前的耗電大概是1580MW左右那當然就是說我們在節電的部分我們都有輔導廠商在做節電的措施那還有未來的包括靜領的這個部分廠商也都一直在從它的一個力電從它的一個基台來在做"},{"start":13489.159,"end":13512.818,"text":"那當然就是說如果園區一直在擴我們現在也不可諱言就是說我們用電量還是會增加但是用電量增加我們會從技術上面來克服這第一個那第二個就是那個水的部分水的部分我們一個月現在目前大概是在16點多萬噸左右那我們也都是每年一直在做的就是做這個節水的一個輔導所以這些大廠大部分製程的回收"},{"start":13514.539,"end":13539.166,"text":"這個節水的部分大概都可以回收到87%那這個我們會在持續的輔導這個廠商來做這個電節電跟節水的這一個部分不過你們還是希望有年度的每年的這樣的採訪不然你進行採訪還真的是達不到不只是我們自己國內國際也達不到那這邊也希望說等於之後也來給做書面報告或是來說明好嗎那同樣的下面就是在南科的部分"},{"start":13540.066,"end":13566.153,"text":"在淨零碳排的你們的目標是怎麼樣定的其實我們半導體的產業在環評裡面都有承諾2050要達到百分之百使用再生人員那在這之前確實有入境的一個目標其實環境部有控管工業部門我們每年減碳的一個主機那目前也是跟竹中科一起是一樣是協助"},{"start":13566.974,"end":13582.877,"text":"廠商做製程的改善然後鼓勵他們加入RE100那我們希望說雖然產值一直在增加可是他單位面積產量的用電是下降的然後讓他電不是一直跟著產量上去是"},{"start":13584.577,"end":13602.183,"text":"緩緩的不要影響太多用電那另外剛剛像經濟部在講的推展創能啊儲能這些我們也鼓勵廠商在使用創能跟儲能譬如太陽能啊還是SOFC啊還有就是我們那個儲能也有在"},{"start":13603.283,"end":13627.884,"text":"原區有幾家開始在做儲能那用水方面南科是最早用工業用水做再生水還有我們台南市政府的協助我們大概也用了六七萬噸的一個再生水那我目標是以後可能是三分之一都會用到再生水那未來如果海淡水的話我們也會承諾來使用海淡水以上"},{"start":13628.444,"end":13645.74,"text":"好 我再請問一下一下就是說你們當然都用RE100當然是綠能看起來是沒有排碳但是RE100台灣的綠能是夠的嗎不排碳的能源是夠的嗎這可能你們跟經濟部有沒有確認有沒有確定因為我之前我們去"},{"start":13647.509,"end":13676.32,"text":"去有一次到金竹科學園去做考察的時候那裡面有這個實驗室的實驗的研究院的是說這邊其實是增加的部分資料有問題但是我想說我們這部分我們是還是支持說應該要解凍但是這個部分呢希望是說你們這部分就是在會後的時候再把這邊相關的部分能夠就是來做報告然後我們希望說這個時候一起來監督然後也促進說我們能夠符合到國際的需求這邊的這個節能就是淨零碳排"},{"start":13677.02,"end":13702.643,"text":"好不好 好 謝謝那尊照委員的建議好 謝謝好 張雅玲委員好 我的是在第四案的部分就是說我們目前現在大部分都是使用LINE那我們現在也都是用災防科技中心也有一個LINE的市井的服務我想要確認就是說我們這樣子落於小幫手的APP"},{"start":13703.283,"end":13730.856,"text":"還有需要持續的來維護嗎因為這樣好像看起來大家都會使用LINE了嘛對不對那是不是就沒有不需要再持續的來維護這一個APP這樣多花了一些錢這樣那第八案的部分呢主要是因為對於其實我今天早上也有質詢啦就是我們一些科普活動那今天我講的是本土語言的支持之外呢還有其實我今天還來不及講的就是我關於女生對於女性的一些科研活動"},{"start":13732.52,"end":13736.327,"text":"那這個部分呢我想了解一下今年有沒有相關的一個規劃"},{"start":13738.246,"end":13763.78,"text":"有沒有一個初步的規劃可以簡單說明一下好 那個小幫手好 跟我們報告就是有關駱魚第一個應該是LINE的官方帳號因為這是一個公益帳號所以裡面主要是內容我們不斷地根據所有的情資在提供整合那現在我們也把駱魚小幫手做到LINE官方帳號裡面去了所以其實APP的部分跟LINE的部分是我們有多元的管道讓所有的這個民眾都有辦法拿到這個"},{"start":13765.862,"end":13784.277,"text":"那其他部分我們也包括像Google等等我們都有這些資訊利用各種不同的廣告讓全台灣大概兩三百萬的人都能夠得到這些資訊所以不是只有單一一個管道好那你先那這樣子使用路由小幫手的人到底有多少呢"},{"start":13785.516,"end":13814.672,"text":"現在是看起來是二十九萬七千嘛那持續的有在增加嗎我跟委員報告就是說其實我們已經做到LINE官方網站裡面了我今天早上看是一百八十萬報告委員那個肉依小幫手現在民眾反應非常非常好所以我們會繼續來加強應該是說有沒有兩個嘛一個是LINE官方一個是APP嘛我現在指的是說APP的部分還需要持續的來做嗎還是是說就直接處理LINE的部分就好了"},{"start":13817.726,"end":13832.748,"text":"現在目前還是會持續因為維護不是很高因為我們只是維護這個APP的不是在開發我們會維護APP是因為很多人他喜歡用APP就每個人使用習慣不一樣所以我們會盡量讓郭源管道並存讓所有人都能夠使用到這個資訊"},{"start":13837.288,"end":13849.361,"text":"女性的科普跟委員報告我們有五個主軸那裡面有一個主軸就是針對提高女性對科學的興趣所以每年都有固定的增建"},{"start":13851.232,"end":13865.592,"text":"針見可是問題是以前都會有一些主題活動啊不是只有針見吧以前會有一些宣傳啊或是一些講座啊等等的針對資安的部分我們今年五月其實有辦資安女傑師的一個活動那這其實是辦了"},{"start":13867.995,"end":13881.35,"text":"因為第四屆也第五屆了那每年都會有高中跟大學的女學生來參與這個治安相關的這些闖關那我記得我之前就有說我希望這是不是可以再找一點點有一些國中的因為高中都已經分組了還有一些其他的"},{"start":13883.462,"end":13904.514,"text":"還是 沒關係 這個在提這個基本上我OK啦但是我想我們再仔細的來去確認因為我們本來之前我其實一直就在講嘛我們應該要更早的去做這件事情不然你高中都已經分組了那基本上就已經很難有機會再接觸以現在的學制來說啦那我們在辦公室好好仔細再討論看看還有沒有什麼可以對國中生的部分來做好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":13906.755,"end":13932.454,"text":"好那這一點這個案子我想本席也有問題想要這個確認一下那當然我是支持解凍啦那也支持剛剛詹雅琳委員的說法就是其實我們也鼓勵主委還有同仁因為您剛剛主委有提到預算有可能在明年度你們在編列的時候也有一些擔憂這個我們也理解啦大家有不同的想法"},{"start":13933.194,"end":13941.623,"text":"那但是以一個尊潔開支的角度來看也許是一個好的時機去看說是不是已經有一些計畫是執行成效或者是時間點或許可以被更好的計畫來取代那我想每一滴錢當然剛剛有說這個APP維護費不是很高"},{"start":13950.231,"end":13972.731,"text":"那當然我們也理解但可能有其他專案這個板塊上可以依據時間來做一點調整我覺得這個是第一個希望不管是園區或者是這個國會會自己內部的計畫我覺得這第一點第二點的是那個園區的電力充足或不充足的問題我也跟主委您交流其實我我們也有這個考察過"},{"start":13973.972,"end":13994.387,"text":"某園區我就不明確講是哪個園區在考察的過程當中其實有相關人員是表達確實有缺點的那我想這個應該不是一個意識形態的問題具體有遇到那有人提出那我想可能主委還是希望能夠關心跟關切一下那原因其實就在於我想要提出的第三點"},{"start":13995.248,"end":14014.082,"text":"因為剛剛有一些回覆是說 廠商可以購買碳泉或者是說我們可以用節電但是事實上為了額外的這個能源要去付出的成本跟代價對廠商來講都是一個壓力跟負擔如果我們不去考量這個的話 那當然"},{"start":14016.184,"end":14031.562,"text":"你要買一大堆的碳權買到到最後連那個那個利潤都沒了那當然可以淨零啊可是顯然不是所以我想一個能源政策的這個確認並且是合理的我覺得還是很重要啊所以"},{"start":14032.642,"end":14052.555,"text":"我想還是給主委一個機會因為我剛剛有詢問您說您認不認同這個黃仁勳所講的台灣絕對要投資核能使用核能不應該背負民話您認不認同那我覺得當然這各自有意識形態或有不同的想法大家都自由的但是"},{"start":14052.995,"end":14075.001,"text":"因為剛剛也有委員在質詢的時候有提到黃岸勛接下來要跟國科會有合作我們不能說要合作蓋這個AI基礎設施好棒棒然後人家的想法我們就不予表達意見這個是不是可以再給主委一個因為你們現在已經是partner某種程度在AI上是partner您認不認同您的這個"},{"start":14076.161,"end":14082.311,"text":"國科會在AI研究上的partner所說的台灣絕對要投資核能使用核能不應該被汙名化你認不認同他這個說法"},{"start":14083.581,"end":14106.562,"text":"我想黃仁勛這樣講當然有他的觀點他的立場我們都尊重啦但是我還是在強調說我們在未來捷徑能源的發展我們一定會兼顧到各種層面那成本也是一個考量那我們都不排除所有的新能源 捷徑能源我們都不排除而且我們未來在園區的開發"},{"start":14108.584,"end":14126.297,"text":"新園區的開發我也會把這個園區內是不是會有一個民眾可以放心認同的電廠的開發也會放在裡面所以這個我們都在規劃進行當中所以那個主席提到了這個提醒我們的事情我們其實是沒有"},{"start":14127.097,"end":14154.731,"text":"沒有反對啦我沒有反對但是不一定是按照說我們絕對一定要用核能我不能這樣講因為我們要評估各種可能性如果有更便宜的好的能源我們當然會使用不一定要用那個方式嘛對不起因為您這個partner他說台灣絕對要投資核能所以您就是支持他有這樣的說法的空間但是就不加以認同或不認同是好"},{"start":14155.97,"end":14160.871,"text":"為什麼這一案提出是因為主委您的態度會影響到園區的招商因為台灣接下來會應該要有越來越多的廠商進駐發展我們的園區那如果態度您是模稜兩可的或者是讓大家覺得這個中立性有這個質疑的空間我覺得這會影響啦所以我特別在這一案提出的原因在這裡"},{"start":14181.037,"end":14201.95,"text":"謝謝主席但是我沒有模擬兩可我們為了要提供充足的電力一定把所有可能的能源都會含在裡面所以我並沒有排除任何一種並沒有排除那我們會研究可行性讓民眾也認同才有辦法做而且一定要顧慮到廠商的成本如果你的成本是無限的"},{"start":14202.23,"end":14221.197,"text":"那你當然一定夠用嘛你當然一定敬禮嘛好 謝謝那我想這一個第三案還有有沒有 各位委員有沒有意見好 如果沒有意見我們就第三案准予動之體報院會那接下來我們進行第四案第四案的業次 第四案跟第五"},{"start":14222.335,"end":14241.308,"text":"第四案跟第五案我們就一起來因為其實我們剛剛都有了那我們第四案是251頁第五案是257頁那剛才應該也算是有討論過了我想還是請教一下各位委員有無意見好謝謝那我們就第四案第五案準與動之提報院會"},{"start":14244.309,"end":14255.497,"text":"好的 那我想我們解凍案五案審查完均均准以動之提報院會接著處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案即疑案請宣讀"},{"start":14257.588,"end":14282.696,"text":"案有平埔原住民族群身份認定法治作業迫在眉睫行政院已提出《平埔原住民族群身份法》草案以求作業人保障平埔原住民族群身份認定事宜草案中有關如何追溯認定平埔原住民族群身份其中一款為申請民主制成員本人或其直系血親遵親署"},{"start":14283.669,"end":14303.03,"text":"以公私立大專校院或學術研究機構之研究成果內有足以證明其屬於台灣南島與西民族之資訊此款認定方法乃參考總統府歷史正義及轉型正義委員會歷屆評普代表委員相關提案建議"},{"start":14303.931,"end":14322.214,"text":"至於何種學術研究資料該當得以佐證之客觀歷史記錄將仰賴原學、歷史學、人類學等相關領域之學術權威著作建請國科會會統中研院及各社有民族學系之大專校院"},{"start":14323.91,"end":14348.255,"text":"盤點目前共有多少可供人民查閱之評估原住民族群身份認定佐證學士資料並於一個月內向立法院教育及文化委員會提出報告提案人林怡瑾 連署人吳佩玉 郭益晴 陳秀寶宣讀完畢好的 那請問提案委員或各位在場委員有無補充說明或意見好 我來講一下 謝謝主席"},{"start":14349.932,"end":14363.831,"text":"我想為什麼要提這個提案因為依照憲法法庭11憲判自第17號判決的宣判意旨我們就是必須要在今年10月前要完成評估族群原住民身份認定的修法"},{"start":14364.872,"end":14387.267,"text":"可是平埔族群的身份認定具備哪些條件除了現在用日治時期他那個戶籍藤本的那個有特別把民眾的身份做註記那時候註記首番那時候就是平埔族以外其實要怎麼樣看得出你是不是有平埔族的身份就很仰賴學術研究留下來的一些資料"},{"start":14387.927,"end":14402.878,"text":"那因為雖然這個評普原住民身份證這個草案還沒有看審因為行政院的草案已經送到立法院來了那我們看到說在追溯這個身份認定的這個路上條件上其中有一個叫做減負學術研究資料這個在那個院版頭有這樣寫"},{"start":14406.28,"end":14434.139,"text":"那所以國科會歷年來也都當然我們致力於原住民相關研究那也補助了不少研究案所以我才會想說在這邊來提說拜託國科會可以向會同中研院還有相關設有這個相關系所的院校那所有學研單位要動起來來整理有關台灣民族學人類學資料來盤點目前可供人民查閱的這個評普原住民族身份認定的佐證學術資料然後"},{"start":14436.52,"end":14457.879,"text":"那當然因為我覺得因為是10月是修法的定期那當然我們立法院還要進行修法所以主委目前是很迫切需要這份的資料所以我才想說拜託那個國科院這邊一個月內提可是剛剛這個主辦單位有說其實真的是有點困難是因為還要盤點這些學術的資料也需要時間"},{"start":14461.902,"end":14483.848,"text":"對 那本來跟我商量說三個月我說不然兩個半月我已經很有彈性了好 謝謝委員那如果是這樣的話看能不能請國科會這邊來同意我們會遵照辦理那就是因為碰到接下來碰到暑假等等而且現在很多學校所以我們要花一點時間好 那我們就兩個半月謝謝委員"},{"start":14488.214,"end":14508.97,"text":"好那我們就這個說明都完成了就一個月一個月改成兩個半月我想大家都沒有意見的話我們就照修正本案通過謝謝好那個提案如果有委員補簽請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄"},{"start":14513.613,"end":14535.211,"text":"那我們也謝謝非常多委員還有這個同仁都很支持那我們接著繼續進行質詢請何新淳委員質詢何新淳委員何新淳委員不在接下來請鄭天才委員質詢鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接下來請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":14543.891,"end":14546.298,"text":"好 有請 謝謝昭偉 有請主委有請主委 貝殖勳 謝謝"},{"start":14554.459,"end":14579.927,"text":"主委午安我是想針對我有兩個預算案那當然就是說剛剛我們全力支持國科會的發展我們都解凍了那可是這兩個案子一個是關於無障礙的部分一個是跟學術資源整合入口網站的部分想要跟深入的跟主委討論我想我看到你們的報告裡面就有講到你們都一切尊重"},{"start":14580.627,"end":14608.946,"text":"落实CRPD就是台湾所签署的身心障碍权利公约的合理调整的精神那我今年三月就是你们就在回应我三月的这个预算案那我之前也有质询过那你们的报告有讲到申请机构得依实际需要于计划申请书提列无障碍措施经费需求获得国客会补助的研讨会得于合定总金额内调配使用"},{"start":14611.208,"end":14627.541,"text":"一切看起來很合理喔但是我就發現說其實你們這個辦法是修正你們這個補助作業要點的第八點嘛那原本就有托兒服務這個是原本就有的對不對現在我們只是新增加也可以申請無障礙措施"},{"start":14628.382,"end":14641.069,"text":"那我想請問主委那原本就有的托兒服務你們用這個方式來讓大家結果效果如何譬如一年會有幾場研討會有申請這個主委知道嗎抱歉我請李處長來回答這位是我們科國處處長好 處長好那請問你知道一年有幾場研討會有依照你們這個第八點的規定來申請托兒服務嗎"},{"start":14657.87,"end":14672.995,"text":"全國應該說我們這個要點是2月20號修正之後呢我們到現在有26個案子進來所以我們在審查那我們也會這個托兒服務是這次才有的還是以前就有我記得以前就有耶"},{"start":14674.235,"end":14693.923,"text":"托兒服務我現在講的不是無障礙幫忙補充一下托兒服務它是在研討會申請補助的時候那個經費裡面可以用在托兒服務那我們目前應該沒有這個統計沒有這個統計就是說實際上有用托兒服務的統計但是我們有研討會的"},{"start":14700.566,"end":14701.989,"text":"一年大概有幾場學術研討會是有申請到你們這個經費的全國"},{"start":14716.788,"end":14736.924,"text":"這個我們經費合了以後,它有沒有使用這個我們...不是,我說全國你們會合發多少場學術研討會的經...我們不要講經費數,而幾場你們有沒有一個大概的數字?一年譬如說是兩百場還是一千場還是...沒有概念喔?"},{"start":14739.357,"end":14758.841,"text":"可能幾十場啦一年只有幾十場研討會是申請到國科會的經費補助啊因為我們補助的都是比較大型的所以幾十場當中並沒有統計有多少場確實執行出有多兒服務嘛 並不知道嘛 對不對那個處長都不知道齁"},{"start":14764.291,"end":14772.663,"text":"柯國樹補助的是國際研討會對 國際研討會就是大型的國際研討會是 是這個大概一年大概幾十場幾十場所以這個第八點這個只有限國際研討會對不對然後幾十場不知道有沒有拖額"},{"start":14780.573,"end":14786.477,"text":"那我為什麼要問這個問題就現在你不知道有沒有拖額未來你也不會知道有沒有無障礙最後這個政策就好像十年前我記得我進學術界已經不止十年了當時女學會就在推動那你們已經很有善地列了這個了可是因為你不關心它也不關心它好不好用最後就會變成大部分的研討會就是沒有所以無障礙也會變成是一樣的狀況"},{"start":14808.19,"end":14812.094,"text":"然後說大家可以來申請可是這不是只有錢耶這個也很辛苦麻煩的事情你要托兒就要去找保姆或是托育員對不對要有場地要安全無障礙措施也不是有錢就能解決的因為對辦研討會來講是增加不少負擔耶"},{"start":14826.61,"end":14838.538,"text":"所以主委我想問一下說如果你們真的要服務CRPD你要有個推動計劃嘛不是改一下這個規定然後也沒有關心過去這個已經有的托兒服務到底有沒有人申請他們遇到什麼困難我這樣講沒錯吧沒錯沒錯謝謝委員提醒好我請柯國柱"},{"start":14845.606,"end":14865.913,"text":"所以要有個句話你的理想是假如一年有30場國際研討會幾年之內這30場只要有一個與會者是深藏者他的需求都能被滿足你的主委您覺得以我們台灣的學術實力跟我們的經濟實力大概幾年內應該要做到大型國際研討會都要有您的理想是幾年我們有理想之後再來落實嘛"},{"start":14874.69,"end":14902.11,"text":"我的理想當然越快越好 因為這個是但是我知道無法一蹴可擊對不對有時候還牽扯到我們場地的選擇當然當然當然所以你就要提供足夠的支持嘛 對不對那至少我們先限定就是說有這樣的與會者他就要有公平參與的權利我們先讓他能夠顯現出效果對 那主委我們假設主委您當主委已經多久了"},{"start":14903.61,"end":14929.945,"text":"一年嘛我們假設啦當然我們希望說您做得很好繼續連任假設就是說三年的話三年內看看看看有沒有機會你說全部嗎一年二年三年對啊全部我是擔心那個場地全部擔心場地會有問題因為我們國際研討會有時候會辦在全國各地我就辦在一個沒辦法做到無障礙的場地"},{"start":14931.527,"end":14952.994,"text":"那三年內你不要百分之百好了百分之七十五這樣可以嗎百分之五十三年百分之五十我真的覺得很辛苦啦我每次都要說陳俊翰律師他如果要參加研討會可能有一半的他沒有辦法參加到那希望那些沒有跟他法律他興趣身上權益有關的"},{"start":14954.594,"end":14982.384,"text":"百分之五十真的是低標但是我想主委就是講到就會做到那你要把那個就是說方法講出來你的誘因是什麼對不對我們當然一開始不是讓大家主動來做那你要給他足夠的誘因他才會做嘛他辦個國際研討會已經很辛苦了對不對好我們努力好那就三年做到一半的國際研討會能夠符合CRPD好那還有一點時間就是下一題"},{"start":14983.919,"end":15011.823,"text":"好下一題我知道這個也是高難度啦我真的是接到我們學術界就是的學者他覺得我們的學術資源整合的部分就是沒有辦法做到日本的水平那他有給我看日本做得真的非常的友善那他覺得我們全國各單位教育部也做國科會也做就是說"},{"start":15012.603,"end":15041.963,"text":"國家圖書館也做大家各自做然後平台之間沒有整合然後花了很多的錢可是沒有一個最好的全國性的學術資源整合入口網站那你們給我回的東西我看了很久覺得這個就是說非常的複雜本會在釋法的情形下會尋求與國內既有整合入口網站串聯開放請問主委這個釋法是哪個法"},{"start":15042.703,"end":15056.377,"text":"可不可以告訴我我找不到哪一個法跟這個圖書館入口網站整合有關跟委員報告就是有那個圖書館法那國家圖書館依照圖書館法所以他們就是會建置已經有建置的這樣的一個網站那他們如果不夠好呢"},{"start":15059.48,"end":15063.582,"text":"所以是圖書館法意思就是說圖書館是歸教育部管是教育部要給錢然後不是你們的事嗎是這樣嗎我們沒有說不是我們的事因為是說我們有跟國家圖書館這邊我們去研究了這個相關的法令的規定然後也目前的一些網站的一個建制的情形然後我們也有跟國圖這邊來做一個溝通"},{"start":15082.571,"end":15109.116,"text":"已經跟他們溝通過了嗎 坐下來討論怎麼整合因為很多的論文國圖不可能收國外的期刊論文嘛 對不對可是我們每個學者像我過去申請的時候我只要在國外出版的我都會把那個檔案給你們因為你們要審查嘛所以其實你們擁有最多的只要是台灣學者得到國科會的資源的都會列出來給你檔案那他是不是 這樣的東西是不是只有國科會這裡會有"},{"start":15110.956,"end":15115.159,"text":"所以這個部分我們可能我們還會持續在跟國圖這邊來做溝通然後另外是我們在建制那個TOAJ就是有關開放取用的這個部分那我們也是希望跟國圖這邊來做一個介接跟結合這樣那這個部分是不是我們也在持續在跟國圖這邊做溝通跟尋求那個協助然後是不是有可能這個會後我們再跟委員這邊辦公室聯繫再跟您做這樣充分的說明"},{"start":15139.855,"end":15158.902,"text":"好那請問你知道我講的那個日本的那個學術入口的網站的名稱嗎是就是那個Sini對Sini不知道主委知不知道這個平台日本的那主委有空可以看一下我是希望主委能夠做這個對全國民眾現在高中生都在寫就是報告了如果不要他用chatGPT的話"},{"start":15159.922,"end":15169.751,"text":"AI我們主委很擔心那就要讓他知道找資料是很容易的對不對不是東找一個西找一個然後各資料都不完整我覺得日本那個應該是我們的標杆主委可以全力協助嗎我們再參考看看如果教育部這邊需要我們來協調的話我們非常的樂意好不好"},{"start":15178.799,"end":15203.734,"text":"希望國科會擁有這麼多的學術期刊的資源主要是因為全國的學者有在做研究都會跟你們申請經費所以你們會連我們收不到的英文期刊的網站你都至少會有我們國內學者的文章在你們的檔案中那這些應該可以開放你也可以透過一個方式來設計因為都是國科會的資源在支持的這樣沒問題吧"},{"start":15204.955,"end":15205.877,"text":"多久內可以給我一個初步的報告好嗎"},{"start":15217.701,"end":15245.052,"text":"那個委員是不是我們先到委員辦公室這邊來做一個比較就是具體的那個說明那我們再來其實你們的那個寫中報告已經寫得很仔細了我們現在就希望你們更積極的行動讓主委知道給你足夠的支持然後你們去跟國圖協調好不好還有中央研究院我都有跟他們講過了他們都會往這個方向努力是不是再給我們三個月的時間三個月好那就三個月好謝謝主委加油謝謝"},{"start":15247.459,"end":15262.969,"text":"謝謝范瑀委員質詢關於請回座接下來我們有請黃國昌委呃對不起不好意思我們接下來請蔡易瑜委員質詢蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在接下來我們有請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席麻煩有請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝"},{"start":15277.825,"end":15296.578,"text":"黃委員好各位主委好我出自學界申請過國歌會計畫也幫國歌會省國計畫也處理過學術倫理的案子但我發現這整件事情誇張的程度已經超越我的想像"},{"start":15297.864,"end":15322.134,"text":"因為我處理過相關不管計畫的審查還是學倫的案子我講一句比較直接的我沒有看過這麼假的我為什麼說沒有看過這麼假的這件事情發生的時候我那時候人離開立法院因為當職業律師我也比較沒有在關心法學界的事情結果竟然"},{"start":15324.315,"end":15334.164,"text":"等到我們這個注音公司派出去了整個法學界我必須老實跟主委講現在是大爆炸我為什麼說大爆炸竟然在自己的學術履歷表上面造假造假這件事情我當然覺得有去追當年這個事情到底是怎麼處理的怎麼會處理成這個樣子"},{"start":15353.208,"end":15374.306,"text":"教育部的部分我去找教育部國科會的部分我覺得事前就要把它講清楚我相信主委我這幾天連續在追這個案子主委應該有充分準備了當初國科會在處理這個案子的時候法律專業學門七個委員一自決"},{"start":15381.439,"end":15393.828,"text":"說這個違反學術倫理情節重大結果最後到學倫大會被推翻掉了主委這個過程你掌握了沒有我了解"},{"start":15395.329,"end":15420.303,"text":"當初在國科會的學術倫理委員會裡面討論我們都是依程序在進行當初不是我負責但是依程序進行委員討論表決是沒有到三分之二差一票嘛 對不對就差一點 但是當然委員也都知道說我這樣講好了啦七位"},{"start":15423.735,"end":15450.688,"text":"在法律學門裡面可以在這個調查小組裡面的成員其中兩個還被民進黨提當大法官這七位在法學界裡面有一定的學術分量這我相信七位一自覺被學倫大會給推翻掉我老實說我是聞所未聞我真的聞所未聞因為這整件事情太離譜了"},{"start":15452.082,"end":15479.251,"text":"太曲折了太離奇了這七位在法學界裡面可以說是重量級的學者做出一致的決議那其實這麼簡單的事情還要七個重量級的法學界的學者做出一致的決議其實也沒必要啦大概問一個大學生就知道了啦你自己哪所學校畢業的你不知道哪個系所畢業的你不知道"},{"start":15480.29,"end":15507.696,"text":"在履歷表上面啊可以這樣公然造假但離譜的事情是什麼離譜的事情是我們當初的科技部所表達的立場是這個學倫大會不成立沒有達到三分之二差一票我簡單問一個問題啊在學倫大會裡面有沒有基本的利益迴避原則"},{"start":15510.046,"end":15519.946,"text":"有沒有利益迴避原則是所有的審查一定要遵循的原則嗎當初的學倫大會成員有沒有違反利益迴避原則的"},{"start":15521.597,"end":15542.972,"text":"當初就我所知一定都做過這種審查真的嗎 好來一定有 但是這個所謂的審查就是說當事人要簽切結書是 你們切結書長什麼樣子不用給我個人寫的切結書啦個人的切結書有簽名的我都尊重啦公版的切結書可以給我看嗎"},{"start":15544.227,"end":15565.415,"text":"這一部分我到公版的切結書就是空白的嘛就是沒有簽名那一種嘛你要切結上述事項我沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則的那個空白的公版切結書可以給我嗎好 我們請好 我今天在這邊質詢公開檢舉啊裡面有人看不下去啊直接跟我投訴啊裡面"},{"start":15568.717,"end":15597.117,"text":"有一個學倫審理委員會大會的委員是一個律師啦怎麼學倫會去找律師來當委員我也是搞不太清楚啊但沒有關係啦我尊重你們的篩選啊雖然作為一位法律系的教授中研院的研究員學倫大會這種level的東西去找律師啊來當委員我已經覺得很扯了結果你知道嗎"},{"start":15599.148,"end":15625.863,"text":"這個律師啊學倫大會啊 參與的這個律師他就是那個當事人擔任董事那家公司的訴訟代理人知道這件事嗎可以 可以這樣嗎我再簡單的描述一下是什麼法律關係的狀態啊這個當事人就是江雅琪啦是台電的董事結果學倫"},{"start":15629.229,"end":15648.574,"text":"大會裡面的委員而且當初是主導推翻法律學門決議的那個委員是拿台電的錢在幫台電當法律顧問處理訴訟的人他看到當事人這個學輪大會被指責的人是我的客戶的董事我的國科會是出了什麼事情啊"},{"start":15660.421,"end":15678.798,"text":"那個應該是要作為全國學者的表率耶學術倫理的標竿耶結果學倫大會去找了一個被評判的人當董事公司的訴訟代理人來這個有沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則來 請教主委"},{"start":15680.952,"end":15701.805,"text":"我們國會定的學術倫理在審查委員要迴避的這些原則應該當初都是非常明確啦但是我請我們那個主秘他現在監我們的那個好來請回答這個召集人來回答一下"},{"start":15706.888,"end":15734.836,"text":"報告委員 我們在那個學倫審議料理第17點裡面有規定要相關迴避的事項但是委員剛剛提到的那個資訊我們那時候是沒有獲得這樣一個資訊沒有獲得這樣的資訊 奇怪了那位學倫委員他當哪一家公司的訴訟代理人 他自己不知道喔啊 我的當事人是誰 我不知道然後姜雅琪在台電當董事 我也不知道可以這樣混喔"},{"start":15736.311,"end":15737.452,"text":"可以這樣搞喔這丟臉啦把當初科技部的臉都丟光啦我這幾天收到我多少以前法學界的朋友傳來給我的訊息啊說怎麼會扯成這個樣子啊找一個訴訟代理人來"},{"start":15759.66,"end":15770.67,"text":"領前的訴訟代理人去推翻七位法學教授所做違反學倫的認定主委這件事不需要檢討嗎如果有違反學術倫理的事情有明確的證據那我們當然也許要再檢討需要多久"},{"start":15789.466,"end":15809.44,"text":"這個我現在是給你時間啦我本來以為你充分已經很準備已經很充足了啦那顯然還沒有掌握全部的狀況嘛那你說你要再回去調查OK我給你時間需要多久不要跟我說要三個月再一個月好了蛤 還要一個月喔兩個禮拜可以嗎"},{"start":15810.66,"end":15835.721,"text":"一個月好了啦 因為好 一個月 反正立法院研會啊我給你一個月今年夏天我等著你這件事情我一定會追到底我雖然雖然已經沒有在法學界了但出現這種荒腔走板離譜至極的事情我一定會追究責任到底好 謝謝委員之前科技部啊知道這個事情馬蜂窩捅大了你知道發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":15840.573,"end":15865.807,"text":"發生的事情是啥學倫大會沒有遵守利益關係迴避的原則推翻了法律專業學門從由召集人所自己召集的調查小組的決議結果跑出來找綠媒側翼幫他洗地說他被汙止是設假的他哪有被汙止設假你床頭大會都是假的啊"},{"start":15869.244,"end":15889.953,"text":"不是有這種護航的事情出來大學生都有辦法判斷結果學倫大會演示成這個樣子護航成這個樣子還讓人家出來說哇 科技部啊 還我清白啦結果那時候的科技部部長看到知識體大"},{"start":15891.57,"end":15914.026,"text":"看到這個新聞出來了以後趕快發一個聲明啊說沒有沒有沒有這個學歷是造假的傷害學術信譽可能影響學術資源分配的公正性事後趕快發聲明稿我看了科技部後來發的那個聲明稿我看了就我不曉得是可笑還是可悲連科技部自己都知道有問題"},{"start":15919.484,"end":15922.167,"text":"趕快發一個聲明啦出來洗地當初的錯誤一直延續到今天有一些是總統府該負的責任"},{"start":15933.321,"end":15948.611,"text":"總統府副秘書長跟我說他們會回去處理給我一個回覆我到目前為止沒有接到回覆有一些是教育部該處理的我昨天已經質詢了教育部部長會回去處理那有一些"},{"start":15950.003,"end":15977.549,"text":"是國科會作為接任科技部業務的主管機關我知道不是在您任內發生的那但是這件事情一定要處理那順便講第二個層次從這個個案裡面我所看到的抽象性的問題什麼叫抽象性的問題啊主委我簡單的花一點時間給你解釋因為當初啊這一個人"},{"start":15978.669,"end":16002.277,"text":"吹哨者他要檢舉這整件事情的時候他要確認說他交給科技部的那個履歷表上面也造假因為他看到在大學端申請的資料是假的他要確認科技部的是不是也是假的所以呢他就要去找他給科技部的資料給科技部的資料科技部提供"},{"start":16003.32,"end":16022.659,"text":"所有計畫的申請人一個選項就是你可以選擇不要公開個人資料的主要學歷我其實有一點看不太懂我們科技部讓國科會計畫的申請人可以拒絕公開自己的最高學歷理由是什麼"},{"start":16025.13,"end":16046.252,"text":"我們第一就是尊重我們所有的學者他要不要公開包含電話號碼電話號碼 柱子要不要公開這個我覺得都要尊重啊這個沒有問題啊但是主要最高學歷是他的credential"},{"start":16047.253,"end":16076.116,"text":"是他的credential欸是那個我今天如果請教主委學歷喔你的最高學歷你會跟我說這個是你的隱私嗎不是學歷有時候那個學者公開的時候是他的畢業的到底是博士碩士還是學士還有他畢業的學校是是是有時候是這樣那我們也同意他不見得會公佈到他畢業的這個就是我的問題嘛院系所不見得啦你要來拿國家的資源"},{"start":16077.097,"end":16091.845,"text":"然後你要展示你的最高學歷是什麼這個到底會侵害到什麼權益我聽不懂啦不是啦我們學者公開說他不見得會寫他的畢業的系索他到學校一定會寫啦博士說是"},{"start":16093.445,"end":16120.171,"text":"你說學校一定會寫嘛一定會寫學校嘛哪個學校畢業一定要寫嘛不然那個主委你是學界出身的嗎我學界出身所以是很普遍的所以你應該很熟嘛我很熟你有審過任何的application沒有提供最高學歷是什麼的嗎審查委員一定看得到啦審查委員一定看得到讓他公開給大眾的不見其他社會大眾不用知道不一定啦 不一定要知道學生也不用知道"},{"start":16121.084,"end":16143.688,"text":"不需要啊 因為他申請的是國科會的研究計畫當然我們的委員一定都會看到他的資料至於那個學者要不要公開是他自己來決定我先講一下啦 主委你有你的立場跟看法我的立場跟看法在這邊也表白得很清楚了到底誰的立場有道理"},{"start":16145.151,"end":16165.397,"text":"全國的學術界所有的學子大家都心裡有一把尺第二個層次的問題他去跟國科會申請申請什麼申請政府資訊公開他選擇不公開嘛但是一般的社會大眾可以按照政府資訊公開法向政府機關申請要公開嘛我昨天問個人資料保護委員會籌備處的主任"},{"start":16177.854,"end":16191.709,"text":"說這個依照申請為什麼可以不用公開他說這個是資料保存機關意思就是當時的科技部他們所做的決定但我看到有關於"},{"start":16194.574,"end":16207.952,"text":"政府資訊公開法的規定我已經依照政府資訊公開法跟科技部或者是現在的國會申請要公開拒絕公開是依照政府資訊公開法的哪一條"},{"start":16211.26,"end":16228.611,"text":"主委你聽得懂我的意思嗎剛剛我上一個層次跟你講的是學術界大家評價的問題現在我跟你回到法規層面的問題法規層面的問題你們當初我後來把公文跟吹哨者要了公文來當時的部長叫吳政宗"},{"start":16234.282,"end":16262.706,"text":"他說我部分提供限制使用但我不提供他主要學歷的資訊那我看了半天紅框我框起來了這是科技部當初的公文人家依照政府資訊公開法申請了我們的科技部說我們不提供他主要學歷的資訊那我現在問題就來了回到政府資訊公開法不提供主要學歷的資訊他的法規依據是什麼"},{"start":16266.175,"end":16285.123,"text":"如果這個牽涉到國會當初讓學者來填他自己的履歷我們也允許他可以決定哪些要公開哪些不公開我這樣講好了啦如果這個是可以自己決定的事啊我們政府資訊公開法直接丟到垃圾桶裡面去了啦"},{"start":16286.957,"end":16309.454,"text":"政府資訊公開法裡面就會有一款啊說當事人不想公開就不公開啊不是 那你如果說像各自的部分政府也無權幫民眾所以我還要跟你回到法律的部分嘛因為你現在用common sense在跟我講這件事情我很難跟你討論啊所以我們就回到政府資訊公開法你是依照第幾條第幾款的規定不公開"},{"start":16311.343,"end":16337.551,"text":"好 那我 因為我本身不是寫法沒關係 可以 可以 來 請 請 請來 請報告委員 就是如果照政府資訊公開法現在是第18條的第6款其實就是剛剛我們主委提到來 我們把第6款唸一下政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一因限制公開或不予提供你剛剛講的第6款來 第6款法條文字我唸給你看"},{"start":16338.963,"end":16352.373,"text":"公開或提供有侵害個人隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表者但對公益有必要不再實現我把法條弄給你看"},{"start":16353.55,"end":16377.218,"text":"我們在討論法律的時候基本上分兩個結構一個結構符不符合本文的規定如果符合本文的規定再看有沒有但書的例外這個很基本啦我先跟你討論主文的規定要求他公開他的學歷是會侵害到他的隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權嗎"},{"start":16379.21,"end":16401.064,"text":"報告委員 就剛剛我們主委提到就是我們剛剛的前提那個問題就是他為什麼可以選擇公開或不公開其實就是因為他的各種學歷會牽涉到個人的隱私隱私嘛 好 沒有關係啦你今天在國會裡面的詢答都會成為立法院公報的記錄那第二個 對公共利益沒有必要嗎"},{"start":16405.57,"end":16417.141,"text":"如果資料可以這樣遮影的話那我簡單這樣講啦我以後提供給國科會的我愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫啊我愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫啊工作沒有辦法監督啊"},{"start":16418.103,"end":16447.703,"text":"因為我可以選擇不公開啊我跟國會申請國會也不會給我啊沒有人會知道工作沒有辦法監督上面寫的是不是假的嗎報告委員不會這樣子啦我們現在如果說像他這樣填報可能與事實不符的話最後他自己還是要負擔這些後果嗎沒有啊他最後什麼後果都沒負擔啊你們的學倫大會說他不用負擔任何後果啊我有說錯嗎我們有請他更正了啦"},{"start":16449.164,"end":16473.345,"text":"所以我們現在國科會跟科技部的標準是被我們抓到以後事後更正就好是這樣嗎委員剛剛講了說那個公眾利益的事情那我們的看法可能會不太一樣如果說覺得說依照公眾利益這個我們可以在法庭判決不是啦 我就簡單講啦我們目前行政機關對政府資訊公開法的運作"},{"start":16476.297,"end":16493.047,"text":"保守到令人難以想像是從美國FOIA抄來的抄來以後運作到保守難以想像但是在欺負什麼事情欺負一般的人沒有那個勞力時間費用去跟政府打行政訴訟我簡單講就是這樣啦非常少數的人願意花那個勞力時間費用去跟政府打官司 為什麼因為政府打官司 政府的律師誰出錢"},{"start":16507.352,"end":16531.674,"text":"是大歲人出錢我去跟政府打官司誰要出錢我自己要出錢這是為什麼我們各自有關於政府資訊公開在行政法院的訴訟案件量那麼低如果因為當事人這樣的這個作為影響到公眾利益有人要來提出訴訟國會一定會配合的啦我這樣講好了啦這個是吹哨者"},{"start":16532.574,"end":16554.54,"text":"到處跟你們申請的不會的公文也在那邊了我只拜託主委回去啦好好重新思考一下回去好好重新思考一下因為我們真的在意的是什麼真的在意的是台灣學術界的integrity跟reputation這我同意好 謝謝好 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各位請就座 我們繼續開會首先來介紹在場的委員 陳樹業委員我們應安會主任委員 陳信德他因為慢幾分鐘到我們何慶生副主任委員我們吳炎黃委員張文環委員"},{"start":1825.302,"end":1847.91,"text":"我們李延年委員主任秘書姚承安執行長林佩達主任孫淑信專門委員行政院主計公務預算處的專門委員廖逸林好那"},{"start":1849.349,"end":1862.964,"text":"今天首先來處理報告四項有關114年度國家運輸安全調查委員會的預算之解凍案計五案請藝術人員宣讀"},{"start":1871.175,"end":1880.065,"text":"報告事項處理一百一四年度中中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計五案國家運輸安全調查委員會函"},{"start":1883.547,"end":1904.912,"text":"簡訊該會一至五一決議一預算凍結十分之一案二決議二教育訓練費預算凍結十分之一案三決議三探員出國計畫預算凍結十分之一案是決議四運輸事故調查預算凍結五分之一案五決議五運輸系統安全分析與工程鑑定預算凍結十分之一案宣布完畢"},{"start":1909.215,"end":1917.83,"text":"好來各位委員那個宣讀完畢那請各位委員有沒有什麼意見好"},{"start":1920.185,"end":1945.127,"text":"那個孟愷有沒有意見沒有的話做以下的決定報告事項 預算解凍案114年度中央政府總預算案結議個案書面報告已送達經予以被查提報宴會好現在再補充介紹我們林信德主任委員"},{"start":1947.998,"end":1970.369,"text":"好 接著進行本日會議的討論事項處理114年度國家運輸安全調查委員會之預算解凍案一案現在進行機關報告及詢答現在請運安會明信德主委來做報告"},{"start":1979.87,"end":2005.86,"text":"主席各位各位女士各位先生大家好首先對主席及各位委員給予本會各項業務的支持與指導表示有助的感謝今天列席各位委員會就114年度預算解凍案進行報告那麼我們114年度單位預算凍結案有六案那麼已經分別你據這個事件包括含重大型災案"},{"start":2008.973,"end":2032.068,"text":"那其中討論案四項是一案 包括四項是五案那麼現在請就討論四項的這個凍結案件結案方案如下第一 討論四項本會列以討論四項的凍結案新增決議第八十案討論決議的內容是國家藝術安全調查委員會業務編列預算六千兩百四十五萬元"},{"start":2033.386,"end":2047.552,"text":"三千元凍結百分之三十是執行百分之三十之後實則申請解凍並經院會同意或實則凍結他們本會月一上開的決議在五月六日提送書面報告相關內容請說明如下關於"},{"start":2049.417,"end":2073.629,"text":"改善建議的追蹤列管機制本會已經依據《藝術事務調查法》第27條以行政院函班之分項執行計畫列管作業規定建立改善建議發布後的追蹤列管機制有關機關在收到藝術事務調查報告後90天之內應該向行政院提出處理報告並複製本會其中對改善建議事項認為可行者"},{"start":2074.75,"end":2103.085,"text":"想提具體的分校執行計劃本會只會應該對各分校執行計劃進行審核對於還沒有完成者專期這邊核列後列入納官並由本會追蹤執行情形有關機關對列管中的改善監獄分校執行計劃應該以每年的11月15日與7月15日前將前6個月的執行情形從本會審核一直到解除列管為止現在報告改善監獄完成率的統計"},{"start":2105.209,"end":2112.134,"text":"統計至5月21日子,航空、水路、鐵道、公路分別已發布1,112項、310項、221項、173項的改善監獄,總計有1,816項其中還有一些分項事件機關列管中的改善監獄,分別是3項、39項、23項跟第10項"},{"start":2126.577,"end":2132.58,"text":"滿地管中的數量占各調查模組改善建議總數的比例為0.3%、12.6%、10.4%、5.8%整體而言有關機關已完成94%的改善建議"},{"start":2142.944,"end":2170.963,"text":"改善支援覆項執行計畫列管超過三年以上者經統計自5月21日子航空水路鐵道與公路改善建議覆項執行計畫列管超過三年以上者有兩項三項九項跟兩項總共有16項該等覆項執行計畫並非有關機關沒有改善作為而是因為大概都要需要改善期程比較長而且困難度比較高本會每半年都會協助解釋執行"},{"start":2172.944,"end":2199.963,"text":"本會針對上述列管超過三年以上的各調查模組已經在今年三月辦理四場有關這個互相執行計畫的接近作為會議分別邀請國防部、空軍司令部、交通部以及所屬的港港級、鐵道級、公路級、高速公路級、鐵路公司、台鐵公司等機構延長執行的困難處以及後續可行的執行方式藉此協助有關機關技術完整改善本會將持續"},{"start":2201.747,"end":2214.165,"text":"是需要邀請有關機關討論改善建議的方向跟目標如有關機關提出的互相執行計畫從缺法執行的執行紀錄或者是方向有偏離者我們還是會繼續協助該機關股東市的檢討報告結語"},{"start":2218.09,"end":2222.433,"text":"經統計114年度業務會到5月21日執行數是16542294人執行率是30.96%已經達30%有關大院決議事項典會經已加強處理而且提出書面報告本會將"},{"start":2238.709,"end":2254.579,"text":"繼續積極辦理溢出事故的調查作業 發覺事故的噪音提出改善協議 其中避免類似事件再次發生為確保機關後續業務運行無疑 請請各位委員支持同意 動之相關協會 批立各項業務的順利推動 以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2259.892,"end":2272.309,"text":"好 謝謝我們林興德主委現在我們進行詢打先告以下事項第一 詢打時間出席委員6加2分鐘"},{"start":2274.952,"end":2303.634,"text":"列席委員4加1分鐘委員花園登記在10點30分截止各委員如有臨時提案請以10點前提出以便藝術人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則性不休息那我再來補充介紹我們邱樂華委員"},{"start":2306.052,"end":2312.755,"text":"那剛才好現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行好主席謝謝麻煩請林主委林主委"},{"start":2329.042,"end":2355.553,"text":"各位好 新北三峽發生重大的車禍意外我想國人都非常的難過但現在最重要是釐清真相跟還原事實我們有看到運安會也已經說成立專案小組並且查扣車輛上面的事故資料記錄器那到目前為止已經快兩個禮拜過去那我們有沒有什麼樣的一個比較新的進度來還原整個事實的真相"},{"start":2356.836,"end":2377.871,"text":"這個案子我們的EDI就是所謂行程電腦已經開始在解讀那我們跟檢調單位目前在合作那相關的資料都有在互通因為基於檢調單位偵查不公開的原則我們目前還是在因為這個案子EDI的解讀一般差不多要三四個禮拜但初步一定是因為它要同步"},{"start":2378.351,"end":2398.912,"text":"一定要要三四個禮拜但對於我們來講現在國人想要了解的是說到底這件事情它是因為第一時間交通部在第二天馬上就調修了所謂的高齡駕車的一個年限的緊縮從本來75歲往下修70歲那一時間大家以為是說是不是高齡者的一個高齡駕車的問題"},{"start":2400.433,"end":2420.575,"text":"那但是又看到的是他有400公尺內四次的事故尤其是一開始的時候在那個路口有所謂的肇事逃逸所以我們現在國人大家想問的是到底他是故意還是過失是人為的因素還是肇事逃逸那這一些部分沒有辦法讓國人有一個比較清楚明白了解嗎"},{"start":2423.903,"end":2439.001,"text":"這個要等這個我剛剛講ED要解讀出來之後還要配合所有的CCTV還有配合這個駕駛的訪談等等這個整個整個一系列的這個調查還有很多要磨合在一起當然"},{"start":2439.602,"end":2466.534,"text":"就是因為有很多所以說國人現在想要了解是說我們到底各單位的進度或是各單位是不是能夠積極辦理讓國人早日了解真相三人死亡十二人受傷這難道不應該重視嗎我們已經動員整個全會大概有15個人在集中火力在調查這個案子是所以什麼時候因為以往的運安事故發生一個月才會公佈初步的調查報告沒有錯"},{"start":2466.994,"end":2495.274,"text":"那你現在又在推說因為這可能檢調現在正在偵辦當中但我們其實對檢調也有點為詞啊因為也有網路上面講說同病房的人好像有聽到說這一個加害者他已經醒過來了但到目前為止怎麼都看到還沒有做筆錄那當然我相信檢調應該都有派專人再去做看管這一個加害者只要要一清醒可以做筆錄就應該要做筆錄嘛"},{"start":2496.717,"end":2525.623,"text":"現在重點是各單位有沒有積極的讓國人了解還是說真的如同陰謀論來講這個背後可能八股很大可能是某某某綠營調查咖還是怎麼樣還是跟誰關係好所以大家想要大事化小 小事化無有可能嗎這個我沒有聽說不可能嘛 主委這不好笑不是 主委我們要的是真相對要的還原事實 好"},{"start":2527.174,"end":2551.15,"text":"來看一下喔今年三月交通部長陳士凱才講說行人走在斑馬線上被車撞死是國死所以修法要更嚴厲但昨天交通部周年記者會卻改口說行人地獄只是形容詞見仁見智我想請教以主管道安教安的主管機關這種說法運安會你能夠接受嗎"},{"start":2552.941,"end":2572.204,"text":"我們尊重共產黨部主管機關因為我們是事故的調查機關這角度是不太一樣的可以接受說現在到底行人地獄在台灣國外國際觀光客為什麼會有行人地獄這四個字其實本席身為中華民國的一份子我也覺得很難過"},{"start":2573.927,"end":2596.382,"text":"當國外的遊客來到台灣然後就感受到說是行人地獄的時候其實這是一竿子打翻一船人可是為什麼會有這樣的罵名不也就是過去不管是道路不管是駕駛人不管是相關的單位大家的疏忽累積而成那現在講說行人地獄只是形容詞見仁見智那我們的運安會能夠協助"},{"start":2601.454,"end":2606.445,"text":"是不是能夠給交通主管機關更強而有力的督促啊 主委"},{"start":2607.335,"end":2634.032,"text":"我們這個案子調查出來之後可能會有系統化的風險問題我們會給交通部做建議調查出來之後會有系統化的方式給交通部做建議對好來那我請教第一時間我剛剛開眾名義就講第一時間三峽案件一發生完之後第一時間交通部第二天記者會馬上就有講是說要調修這所謂的高齡駕車的部分當然最近也有一連串其他高齡駕駛肇事的狀況"},{"start":2636.474,"end":2652.477,"text":"但是就針對這一個事件初步判斷感覺跟高齡比較沒有直接的關係那主委對於這一連串我們台灣社會最近比較多的媒體報導的高齡駕車事件事故你有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":2653.436,"end":2671.068,"text":"我覺得我們是應該跟交通部一起來共同努力交通部雖然已經在第一時間有給國人一個交代可是這個案子是屬於調查案子調查案子的過程我們應該要更加努力所以我剛剛幫我們投入了15個人力這個幾乎是排擠掉其他的案子了"},{"start":2673.882,"end":2695.635,"text":"這重大的案件當然也應該要趕快調查給國人適時真相了解啊我每一次我都講嘛 運安會今天是解凍案報告我每次都講說運安會來我們可以很心平氣和討論交通的精進 交通的改善這都好事啊這代表沒有事故發生啊沒有事故發生我們超前部署防範未然啊"},{"start":2696.235,"end":2725.416,"text":"但現在既然事故發生了我們要的是記取這次的教訓避免下次再犯所以才要找出這件事件的真實原因是肇事逃逸是荒唐駕車是人為因素是車輛控管不良還是高齡駕車這些綜合出來之後我們才能做政策來對症下藥啊不是嗎所以後續高齡駕駛的一連串的事故我們運安會會有提出相關建議"},{"start":2727.423,"end":2747.798,"text":"是不是能夠針對這個不管是現在從75歲調降到70歲但是70歲是換照他還是有那我們那時候也提過是說你的高齡駕駛除了我的身心的感知以外可能還有其他的部分需要再進一步的做評估來不是只是單純年齡一分法"},{"start":2750.849,"end":2769.095,"text":"確實沒有錯 不是只有單純的問題所以運安會後續是不是也可以提供專業的建議給交通部因為交通部講說三個月內會把配套措施出來那我們運安會這邊是不是也可以提供參考其他國外的案例 參考國外的制度我想我們應該會提供一些建議給他們"},{"start":2771.329,"end":2787.395,"text":"因為我們分成四個分組在調查嘛操作分組 車輛分組 生還因素的還有紀錄區分組那這四個分組在15個人力裡面我們所調查出來之後還要去同步 還要解讀 還要訪談我只是請教 那交通部有沒有找 雲南會開會過了"},{"start":2789.396,"end":2802.646,"text":"還沒有目前還沒有目前還沒有三個月內他們就要提出來就運安會我覺得很重要的一個機關也是獨立自主的機關調查事故的機關專業機關交通部不早開會莫名其妙"},{"start":2803.922,"end":2818.63,"text":"我們是不是能夠主動的問交通部說有什麼樣可以協助的地方參與這次的一個調整的政策開會溝通提供專業意見事實上我們這個案子的專案小組組織分工會議裡面有找他們來看過會"},{"start":2820.236,"end":2835.657,"text":"有找他們來 專業組織婚婚會他們有來過主委我講的是兩件事嘛專案小組是你們現在在組成是調查新北市三峽事故這個是專案小組但本席現在講的是交通部因應這一個案件之後他就調整了高齡駕車的"},{"start":2837.119,"end":2859.155,"text":"年齡比例 從75歲變到70歲然後他說他要做相關的配套 但是這個部分跟這一件事情一個是獨立案件 我們要真相請運安會趕快讓國人知道真相但另外一個部分是 交通部做出一個反應但這個反應其實它並不是這個獨立事件的主要原因可是交通部還是做了"},{"start":2859.995,"end":2887.421,"text":"就是所謂的高齡駕車 從75歲變70歲那本席也尊重 因為過去也有一些討論那只是說 現在一連串的事故裡面也有高齡駕車它可能不是這一個獨立案件的主要原因可是既然要講高齡駕車 它可能是另外一個事件的時候我們運動會要提出相關的建議啊你不能講說你這個獨立案件 你們又找交通部開會然後這一個高齡駕車的政策 你們就放著不管啊"},{"start":2888.371,"end":2907.916,"text":"不會啦不會嘛因為我們我們主動一點好不好我們的調查重點裡面也會考慮到這個駕駛行為調查搞造的體檢制度調查的這個這個管理制度這裡面就會涉及高齡的問題好來那主委我最後一個問題請教這可能也跟您過去轉眼雲過去是民航局副局長"},{"start":2908.996,"end":2931.929,"text":"那最近也有另外一個年齡的問題卻是機師的人口缺口所以交通部要修正所謂的航空人員檢定給照管理規則擴大放寬年齡的範圍從最低要放寬到18歲並且最高同航班年齡反而是從不超過60歲放寬到不超過65歲"},{"start":2935.888,"end":2962.625,"text":"所以在另外一個航空的部分因為機師的缺口反而他是要放寬年齡的級距從高齡的60歲 現行60歲的制度要多放寬5歲變65歲所以一方面路上他是要降低年齡的限度從75歲降到70歲他就要受相關的換照可是航空他卻是要65歲放寬60歲放寬到65歲"},{"start":2966.405,"end":2991.638,"text":"主委 以你的專業判斷 你有什麼樣的看法這是兩個不同的專業領域是 兩個不同的專業領域 但是回歸同一件事情都是年齡的放寬一個是緊縮 一個是放寬我相信平常局他一定有配套措施啦是 我現在想問的是你不能只是相信 因為運安會你是防範未來的專業單位嘛那我現在想要請教說 運安會您專業的看法是什麼他60歲 當初會設60歲的門檻"},{"start":2996.311,"end":3021.639,"text":"那因為現在是機師的人口缺 人力缺所以他要放寬5歲那這5歲有沒有專業的支撐判斷還是說他有沒有 你應該建議說他要再多做什麼樣的一個檢測還是就是單純的就放寬就放寬了應該不會 他有必要做事 絕對有必要做事能不能了解一下他不會去單純是這樣做 我們可以去了解"},{"start":3022.85,"end":3047.265,"text":"主委這個是本席就找到的新聞資料他就是直接講交通部你下修檢定年齡到18歲同班高齡駕駛放寬到65歲本席還是站在我相信我們做每一件事情一定都要做過評估但是就是說在這個放寬的過程當初會這樣子規定並且現在的放寬如果說只是因為人力不足而要補這個人力缺口就放寬5歲的話那5歲的標準是什麼"},{"start":3051.397,"end":3063.829,"text":"那如果說以後人力再不夠 再放寬變10歲變15歲這個部分 越南會是不是能夠也來做掌握跟交通部來做一個瞭解"},{"start":3065.409,"end":3085.662,"text":"我們可以開個專案會議來跟他了解一下我還是強調交通沒有最好只有更好我們大家都是在防範未來都是希望把風險降到最低窮盡一切的可能把風險降到最低這是我們共同的使命再拜託主委好嗎好謝謝洪孟楷委員的"},{"start":3092.17,"end":3106.983,"text":"現在請李崑澤委員執行謝謝召委 請一下林主委好 應安會林主委"},{"start":3111.526,"end":3136.415,"text":"林主委您好有關於5月19號三峽的重大車禍造成嚴重的傷亡國人都非常的錯愕與傷痛那當然在第一時間我有跟運安會來聯絡認為這件事情是符合重大公路事故的調查要件應該列入調查當然我們在"},{"start":3137.591,"end":3163.32,"text":"公路的這樣一個事故的調查條件 雲安會有基本的規範第一個就是它是交通運輸工具 貨物的運輸工具以及大型的這種自用車造成3人以上的這樣的一個死亡或是10人的這樣的一個受傷或是15人以上受傷 就列入這個調查的條件"},{"start":3163.8,"end":3185.116,"text":"或者是它是交通運輸工具 貨物運輸工具有在這種危險的物質或放射物質翻覆外洩造成死亡的話也是列入調查另外一個就是我們所說的重大的公路事件造成社會注意的這樣的一個重大案件也必須要來做調查"},{"start":3187.418,"end":3197.974,"text":"那現在調查的進度如何來簡單說明一下什麼時候會完成這個資料的報告以及最終的調查完成報告"},{"start":3199.133,"end":3227.94,"text":"我們一個月內會發布初步的報告然後五個月內會發布事實資料的報告就是一個月是初步的報告那大概是在今年的十月應該會發布資料的調查報告然後明年的五月會完成相關的這樣的一個調查的報告這個應該盡快的讓國人來知道相關的這樣的一個交通意外的事故"},{"start":3228.96,"end":3255.592,"text":"那另外我們來看交通意外事故的預防它的重要性是越來越重要那我們看到我們運安會的這樣的一個組織法的第二條就是運輸事故的趨勢分析運輸安全的改善建立它的追蹤以及運輸安全的專案研究是我們運安會組織的一個重要的基礎那"},{"start":3257.591,"end":3279.208,"text":"我們來看看異常事故 異常事件或是中小型事故的統計跟分析是非常重要的因為我們可以提前來發現這些事故它的發生的一個隱憂然後預防事故發生的一個重要基礎"},{"start":3280.55,"end":3295.611,"text":"這就是一個基本的一個觀念那但是我看到近期具有潛在風險的異常事件例如華信的引擎蓋脫落的事件或者是台鐵列車停靠"},{"start":3296.789,"end":3314.288,"text":"不靠這個不當的事件還有高鐵停站未開門的事件或是公路客運大規模超時過老的這些問題這些不管是他設備的問題操作的問題或是人為的因素等等啊那"},{"start":3316.138,"end":3345.299,"text":"我們的運安會最主要的是事後調查但是這個觀念也必須逐漸改變國際的趨勢已經是從事後調查提升到事前預防世界各國的主要的這種運安會類似的組織都已經朝這個趨勢那當然我們運安會必須要取得相關的資料"},{"start":3346.769,"end":3362.214,"text":"取得相關的這些相關的這些狀況的收集當然我們有這種參照世界各國"},{"start":3363.717,"end":3389.184,"text":"的主要的安全調查機構它的制度跟相關的研究我們看到資料掌握還有風險預警是現在運輸安全一個治理重要的核心我們國家並不是沒有預防的這樣的一個機制也有啦就是之前我長期在推動的志願報告系統從非安會的時期到現在這樣的一個"},{"start":3392.814,"end":3420.663,"text":"機制其實還是明顯的不足因為我們事前的預防機制是參照歐美的這種資源報告系統但是它個案的處理哪裡系統性的預防沒有辦法做到系統性的預防所以我看到我們應該是應該跟世界各國一樣我舉加拿大為例加拿大他們各交通系統發生異常的事件他們立刻就要"},{"start":3421.823,"end":3424.32,"text":"依法就要通報加拿大的運安會"},{"start":3425.823,"end":3452.745,"text":"而且建立資料庫來進行統計的一個分析主委這就是說我們都是消極的在等待這些志願報告系統不管是駕駛者或者是乘客所提供的志願報告系統他們消極的提供我們才去做相關的一個處理但是世界各國現在如果有異常事故的話"},{"start":3453.946,"end":3475.877,"text":"發生這種狀況雖然沒有發生事故這些事件沒有發生成事故但是他還是會主動依法要通報他們的運安會那而且來建立資料庫來進行分析那我們現在沒有直接的這樣的一個機制來主委說明一下"},{"start":3476.824,"end":3494.09,"text":"我們有這個機制啦我們現在的志願報告系統就是這個機制但是我們沒有依法他們要有發生這種異常事故的異常事件的時候就要依法就要通報銀行會我們是要依照志願報告系統"},{"start":3496.168,"end":3507.017,"text":"除了資源包括系統以外各機關他們有發生像Niamis也就是說那個這個Niamis就是襲擊事件什麼他們都會通報我們這邊都有統計"},{"start":3509.983,"end":3524.955,"text":"目前為止都幾乎百分之一百都通報交通部各單位發生這樣的異常事件不是事故喔異常事件的時候他們就會依法直接通報你們是嗎你要確定喔"},{"start":3528.257,"end":3541.278,"text":"相關台鐵每年發生的異常事件是非常的多你們沒見他們都有依法通報你們嗎因為當他通報有一些匿名是比較冷你們還要主動向他們調閱勒"},{"start":3543.305,"end":3558.558,"text":"沒有當他累積到某一個就是的時候我們跟他講說你這是這個事件好像是頻率很高的時候就如同這個委員一直關心的我們會啟動所以目前都是都是兩邊是互通沒有沒有說會是"},{"start":3560.279,"end":3579.216,"text":"你的了解跟認知跟我有差距運安會從非安會從你在當民進黨局副局長的時候我就在交通委員會長期就在推動運安會相關的組織以及它運作的狀況當然我非常清楚我們在過去是自願報告系統自願呢"},{"start":3581.058,"end":3607.784,"text":"不是依法就要通報我們相關運安會建立資料庫的現在是這個機制的它的主動性跟消極性的差別呢你去了解啦 你去了解啦你們的組織法跟調查法還是我訂的呢這個機制希望你能夠去了解一下那我們從事故預防啊它的"},{"start":3609.305,"end":3627.915,"text":"預防的這種分析它的完整性資料的完整性資料完整性的分析是很重要所以我說不只是志願報告系統而是要主動的來提供依法就要提供給我們的運安會而且要建立資料庫來做統計跟分析那"},{"start":3628.875,"end":3650.692,"text":"事前預防都是國際趨勢都可以看出我們必須要做這樣一個積極的作為那預安會能夠掌握這種交通事故以及異常事件的資訊對促進交通安全的重要性是非常的重要所以我建議就是要擴大資料的調閱權限"},{"start":3652.981,"end":3671.49,"text":"我們要 運安會有主動的這樣的一個權限我們來檢討一下相關的法令的機制因為現在只是自願報告系統而且啊 只是你們要釣魚的時候跟他們要 他們會給而不是依法每一件都要送到你們這邊而且要建立資料庫的一個分析"},{"start":3672.318,"end":3692.894,"text":"另外也要跟交通部來協調取得各交通系統資料庫調閱的權限公路局的資料 台鐵公司的資料 高鐵公司的資料你們隨時都應該可以取得相關的這樣的一個資訊而且要進行統計分析來做預防的一個工作"},{"start":3693.675,"end":3722.078,"text":"那長期來說 我認為應該要建立資料自動 介接同步的一個整合的資料庫各交通主管機關來協調所需的資料 而且要建立交換的格式這個請主委跟我們相關的人員 朝這個方面來努力最後就是強化分級的管理 來推動安全的一個改善"},{"start":3723.039,"end":3745.105,"text":"異常事件或事故的趨勢分析以及改善建議我們要以風險的危害性以及發生的機率來進行分級列出改善的優先次序及急迫性通知主管機關並且進行公告來請主委最後做一個說明目前我們醫院會的運作狀況"},{"start":3747.15,"end":3769.952,"text":"我們目前的運作通報確實是有分級啦那如同剛剛委員講的我們事實上可以把這個分級再嚴謹一點比較好謝謝主委我們這個工作都是很重要的關係到事件不只是事後調查我們在事前的預防相關資料分析來建立這樣的一個交通安全改善的一個重要基礎"},{"start":3770.632,"end":3781.534,"text":"這也是過去我提出啊 年度交通安全改善建立的這樣的一個建立書啊一個重要的基礎啦 以上好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝李坤澤委員的質詢好 現在請林國成、張偉質詢好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3799.315,"end":3807.458,"text":"我想請林主委 何滬主委張委員 林委員 竹密執行長好 主委我為什麼把所有重要的人"},{"start":3828.629,"end":3830.875,"text":"都把他請來我還是要呼籲"},{"start":3832.366,"end":3861.532,"text":"因為有一些人家還在說你們在內鬥可是我一再跟他講林主委領導之下現在已經一團和氣你也知道內鬥就無華工作但是團結就有辦法去對外所以我特別要請五位不管是副主委或委員或者執行長主任你們現在主委"},{"start":3862.506,"end":3881.566,"text":"就做林主委所以他的領導就會影響整個我們應安會的組織功能調查等等這些的事情所以請你們上來主要讓你們有責任的一個分享那我也要拜託主委"},{"start":3882.327,"end":3909.098,"text":"不要落人口舌一直好像我們應安會單位不大但是給人家留下口舌這樣就不好這樣就不好這個我特別要提醒你在領導過程當中因為我們的單位是一個專業單位為什麼要冠上國家兩制國家兩制就是非常"},{"start":3909.958,"end":3924.376,"text":"我們的獨立調查的一個單位這點我要 期免啊 我們啊所有的官員跟主委在領導之下要有領導統一才有辦法去針對交通事故"},{"start":3925.177,"end":3940.792,"text":"你 你知道這個責任非常重大欸你陸上 航空 海運通通我們在做調查所以 主委你的責任重大在領導之下要把這些要團結一致這是我給你們的一個啟齊好那個"},{"start":3944.281,"end":3972.666,"text":"主委因為那個三重跟台南這個案件啊說實在是社會矚目啦也就是說不管他今天發生的事故到底是什麼可是我還是要拜託主委你們有沒有辦法把這個時程既然社會矚目的交通事故的調查有沒有可能不要一窮不變"},{"start":3974.506,"end":3999.323,"text":"單純的調查在三個月 六個月就把它完成不要因為我們的規定啊要一年啊 要兩年啊我跟你講 台灣話說一句話啊這就廢笑啊就廢話啊 你是在調查什麼社會矚目 要有一個社會矚目的調查的時辰所以 主委 有沒有可能就是加快腳步"},{"start":4000.203,"end":4027.655,"text":"三到六個月就把真相把它調查清楚有沒有可能我也希望這樣子加快啦但是它有一定的程序在走啦我可以加進不要12個月也許提早到11個月多但是因為這個調查官都是獨立做而且我剛剛報告過我們分成車輛分組分成操作分組生還因素分組紀錄器分組這些都是要科學儀器再測再量再走好 那個主委"},{"start":4028.556,"end":4038.184,"text":"我們蠻期待這樣啦 社會矚目的問題越早讓公布社會 讓社會知道越好 也會樹立到我們應安會裡面調查的威信問題啦所以我還是"},{"start":4043.129,"end":4071.537,"text":"希望我們上台的這幾位重要幹部好好研究一下單純的速度就快複雜的當然要有時效的問題這個我們也是支持但是我們蠻期待的像這種公路或什麼你航空 海運這個是比較困難可是道路的問題是比較單純所以我還是希望在這個部分要加速腳步"},{"start":4072.677,"end":4076.794,"text":"好 另外一個問題就是從單一的調查"},{"start":4078.291,"end":4105.844,"text":"可以解決系統的問題那這裡啊單一的問題也就是系統的問題你們要怎麼要有固定我看你們從來也沒有做這只有把調查報告出來以後就交給各有關單位他們去改善但是我還是在這裡一個建議啦單一的事項調查有可能解決系統性的問題"},{"start":4106.664,"end":4128.859,"text":"也不是說你每一件調查以後 但是系統性是沒有解決啊所以有沒有可能我建議 也就是上台的這幾位重要幹部要常跟 要常跟交通部的運輸研究所因為為什麼 那些運輸研究所 他是在研究"},{"start":4129.861,"end":4155.002,"text":"他的結構性他的事情的發生但是你們調查以後丟給他們他們沒有在做研究那等於沒有系統性的解決所以在這個部分我還是滿建議這個應該主委你主動下去做就是請他們我調查出來的時候請你來表示意見也就是我調查出來的缺點跟調查出來的結構"},{"start":4156.653,"end":4172.447,"text":"哪邊有問題他們去研究才好我看這現在研究機構跟你們調查機構他做他的他做那怎麼會有系統性的解決呢所以主委你針對本席給你建議這些你有什麼看法"},{"start":4173.101,"end":4201.049,"text":"我覺得是很好的建議耶我覺得是很好的建議我們可以跟他溝通看看他能不能選擇性的做研究沒有 你要主動要求你要主動要求我相信啊 交通部啊 部長啊他也不會反對 為什麼系統性解決 事端就會少可是問題現在就是這樣啊一切為二 他做他的研究你做你的調查就會形成什麼沒有系統性的連結"},{"start":4201.969,"end":4228.941,"text":"也就是單一事件發生並非解決系統的問題那他的研究單位存在跟你的調查單位存在永遠格格不入他的研究是提供給交通政策但是你的調查只基於調查可是那研究單位不知道啊他研究不出來系統性如何去解決所以我要拜託主委你主動"},{"start":4230.063,"end":4255.994,"text":"你主動主動邀請他們把資料提供給他們可是他們研究不出來你的責任已了我認為應該要怎麼做但是你們研究出來也不提供給交通部那當然就會形成現在這個交通的這種紛亂因為你們的研究單位現在我特別跟主委說明你們現在的權威性"},{"start":4256.974,"end":4282.164,"text":"跟專業性越來越重人民期待你們的真相所以你不得不做這些所以我拜託這個部分那另外一個最後我要特別也就是說我們自願報到系統也就是公路這個成效很差的你回去這一組要特別來下一張這個你看一下"},{"start":4283.482,"end":4302.803,"text":"各位當然啦 因為任何的事情要民意代表跟你們指責出來指點出來你們才去做研究啦從108年到現在你們這個案子到最後調查出來公開成案的機率非常少也就是"},{"start":4304.345,"end":4317.44,"text":"這個自願報告的案件數59件但是 成案的只有15件會在這個部分 去做說明這代表什麼 這代表 宣導是不做的啦"},{"start":4318.328,"end":4346.727,"text":"所以我主張我主張也就是剛才我講的跟那個交通部的運輸手我們多研究你編一點預算嘛你們自動編嘛跟他們做一個交流甚至於我還是主張你們要去多去什麼多編一點預算要去跟國外人家做的非常有系統的這些調查單位去做交流這點我個人是蠻支持的"},{"start":4347.527,"end":4366.139,"text":"蠻支持的因為你沒有國際國際的做研究那最後確確實實在這個部分我們只有蹲在台灣的東西別人的先進國際的東西我們接軌不來的話我們永遠都是這樣改變不了系統性所以這點我還是要建議"},{"start":4367.26,"end":4388.277,"text":"下年度可能要快編預算我認為這個一定要去編預算所以希望啊我們主委要去爭取這兩個系統一個就是該宣導的你們要宣導第二個該跟學術團體做研究出來才有辦法改變系統性的東西所以我希望主委"},{"start":4388.977,"end":4415.546,"text":"還有今天上來的重要幹部包括副主委包括這個各位專委還有我們這些執行長跟這個主秘這個部分你們要共同幫主委提供一點意見把它及時廣益把它做到最後歸納可以調查跟研究結合把它改變系統性的東西可以不可以 主委好 我們朝這方面來努力好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":4428.802,"end":4443.053,"text":"好接下來我們林進憲委員來執行感謝主席 本席邀請我們應安會的林主委好 林主委"},{"start":4448.522,"end":4472.5,"text":"主委好 今天我們很多委員在這裡跟主委關心三峽那種重大車禍事件那現在運動委員把他列案調查了嘛是不是這樣這個大概是我國第一件有造成行人死傷的公路車禍案件我特別強調行人啦 行人的死傷"},{"start":4473.683,"end":4502.996,"text":"那過去按照運安會的內部規定你要造成這種公路重大車禍的死傷要死亡3人或者是死傷10人或者是受傷15人後來我當時你要記得吧主委我就要求我們運安會應該要修改內規啦你要恢復你的罷房條款就是只要運安會認定有調查必要的你都有權利去立案調查啦那現在運安會也這樣好像在今年2月把它改過了嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":4504.737,"end":4525.158,"text":"現在這個調查 這個報案條款目前就是重要還是要用啦你本來是沒有的嘛本來有 本來舊條款也有舊條款你把它拿掉啦 後來請你們再把它改回來嘛那指揮你也把它改回來嘛所以你現在可以立案調查了啦但是你知道我國重大的行政案件有多少嗎我隨便舉個例子給你看"},{"start":4527.796,"end":4553.894,"text":"你看2022年我就舉這幾年了啦2022年的年底啦台中公車在斑馬縣撞上一家三口啦一個媽媽跟嬰兒死亡那2023年1月啊宜蘭東山的女學生在斑馬縣上被煞車給壓死然後同年的5月台南有一對母女在斑馬縣被撞母親捲入車底三歲女童重撞身亡"},{"start":4555.066,"end":4581.959,"text":"再來還有2023年三重發生一位台藝美國的大學生男生出門運動在巴馬縣結果拖到車撞死了我隨便寫幾個都是非常悲痛的慘案給主委你參考一下就是其實台灣過去已經發生這麼多起的重大行人死傷事件"},{"start":4583.291,"end":4612.103,"text":"那以前運安會都沒有做類似的調查因為按照以前運安會的規範可能沒有每一個個案來看都沒有達到你的立案調查的那個標準但你把它累積來看你就知道為什麼台灣會被稱為行人地獄你個案看覺得沒什麼你全部累積你就發現這個不會是單一偶然的個案"},{"start":4613.922,"end":4629.738,"text":"所以這一連串那是不是系統性造成的風險這當中過去都是交通部在調查警政署在調查造勢原因是不是這樣那原因是什麼不是什麼行人耗資動線規劃不良"},{"start":4631.792,"end":4660.775,"text":"最近也有提到的高齡駕駛的管理和危險駕駛的處理第三 車種 車輛的管理或大型車轉彎視角 死角的風險還有道路設計空間規劃的問題還有用路人習慣步驟的問題 都一大堆啦那到底各個單位的調查我們有沒有辦法做一個整體性的研究這恐怕要靠運安委啦"},{"start":4662.692,"end":4674.166,"text":"那主委你現在對於這樣的一種新人死傷的調查你有什麼樣的個人看法嗎我想對所謂脆弱用路人的這個事故或命案"},{"start":4675.663,"end":4700.908,"text":"我們會持續關注啦那該立案我們還是要立案啦你只有立這個案喔你過去從來沒有啊我相信你只立第一個案啦這個個案可能以後還會當然我們不希望發生啦但是我們會持續關注啦那我們希望啦今天慾望會能能定出一個讓我們大家以後可以真的好好的來改善啦因為慾望會的"},{"start":4702.553,"end":4713.462,"text":"組織法裡面就有規定了 院安會有運輸事故趨勢分析這個可能就了解它是不是一個系統性的問題然後要提出運輸安全專案研究"},{"start":4714.96,"end":4735.837,"text":"但是運安會從2019年成立以來到現在你的組織章程裡面說運安會有權要提出專案研究你給他提出兩個我找到現在只找到兩個一個是飲水人的專案研究報告一個就是貨運業專案研究報告除了都沒有啦是不是沒有看過啦來我再給"},{"start":4743.342,"end":4762.753,"text":"主委你參考一下國外的案例你看美國的運安會美國運安會就針對行人事故他有一個Safety Research Report在這裡在他的安全的研究報告裡面他特別有針對行人"},{"start":4765.471,"end":4793.063,"text":"Special Investigation Report有沒有 他是針對Pedestrian Safety你看到吧針對行人這是美國運安會喔而且他早在2018年就提出來了他認為行人走路啊不可能連續這樣發生車禍啊因為他這邊有列出來就是車禍發生的案例啊就好像我剛剛列給你的他有這些案例所以美國運安會主動去調查"},{"start":4795.373,"end":4819.651,"text":"主動去調查然後他就寫出了這樣的一份行人安全的專 特別啦他說特別研究報告這其實就是所謂國家設立運安會的目的也是你們運安會的職責啦那現在啊 總算有第一件啦我覺得也可能是因為啊"},{"start":4820.728,"end":4847.063,"text":"媒體壓力太大啦這個重大車禍引起社會很大的一個憤怒所以我覺得運安會這個時候當然是不要介入啦不管你是不是受到壓力介入啦那既然運安會正式立案調查我們希望運安會能夠給我們大家做出一個系統性的研究你就看一下 看一看"},{"start":4848.547,"end":4875.189,"text":"台灣過去已經發生那麼多的重大的行人死亡的那個案件其實過去都沒有引起社會很大的一個反響反正就是幾天新聞 過去就沒有了沒有人關心就算了現在我們剛好利用三峽事件我們請運安會的專業能夠提供未來相關的行政該管部會能夠如何來改善"},{"start":4876.948,"end":4902.608,"text":"來 維護行人安全好不好是是這樣好不好好 謝謝委員主委我也希望運安會能夠有一定的權威和專業才能得到社會的重視和尊重啊如果大家把運安會當作什麼單位啊你從立委重視的程度就看出來啦給人家對立委質詢 行李都不來啦沒什麼立委要來啦"},{"start":4904.205,"end":4924.019,"text":"大家會覺得你這個什麼單位不是很重要所以運安會要開始要拿出自己的一個你們的權威和專業出來說服大家嘛你給大家看嘛不然你這個單位你們自己你們自己做到有什麼榮譽感說你這兩個單位服務我在運安會那你什麼單位你幹什麼的這是一個運安會啊表演的一個機會啦"},{"start":4932.079,"end":4945.387,"text":"尤其剛我們林國城委員對各位也有一些的勉勵都叫你們多交流多跟外界的所以林國城委員每年不會給你們抬預算有時候要抬你們都要跑到出口你們看"},{"start":4947.798,"end":4964.581,"text":"所以明年 林國仁委員會支持你們的預算我先替他講你們出國預算也好 業務費也好 也來積極主席 我們一起有共同的期望希望應安會能夠扮演該有的一個角色 謝謝主委謝謝主席好 謝謝林進憲委員的執行"},{"start":4972.503,"end":4981.234,"text":"那特別因為林憲憲委員這種啟喜跟勉勵跟本席的看法完全一樣其實該給的立法院也不會吝嗇啦"},{"start":4982.915,"end":5001.643,"text":"那該給的該有用的我相信我們交通委員會所有的委員都會支持所以在這個國際研究的部分跟考察的部分這基本上本來就是要去做的那另外就是跟我們交通部的那個研究"},{"start":5003.284,"end":5018.515,"text":"運輸研究所那個要連結你們都沒有連結你做你的他做他的我還是希望有連結性才有辦法改變系統性好不好來接下來由陳樹葉委員執行謝謝主席請主席邀請林主委應安會林主委"},{"start":5035.381,"end":5055.639,"text":"主委早安今天委員會的委員都在關心就是5月19號三峽那個就是發生的這個重大的車禍事故因為造成了3人死亡12人重傷的這樣子的一個車禍事故真的是舉國嘩然因為那個畫面真的是令人真的是"},{"start":5056.785,"end":5074.451,"text":"就是不忍那個看下去那因為在這個事件發生之後那網路上就很多的一個推測因為看到有網友說這個駕駛好像是路怒症然後我也有看到有網友分析說"},{"start":5075.351,"end":5079.436,"text":"他可能是這個駕駛的那部車的機械問題啊因為他在轉彎的時候就是卡住了那倒車的時候又撞到後面的車那心急之下心慌之下可能就是這個肇事逃逸又加上這個車輛"},{"start":5091.508,"end":5109.863,"text":"可能就是失去控制等等有各種不同的揣測其實這樣子的一個揣測當然就是也不是一個好的現象因為我們也希望就是說車禍事故也希望就是透過專業的單位來釐清就是這個車禍的原因然後找出原因之後當然我們也是要來預防我相信這也是雲灣會的一個職責所在"},{"start":5116.008,"end":5136.72,"text":"那我們也看到就是5月21號我們雲南會也正式宣布說要立案調查那本席先請教一下就是這個案子預計多久可以完成正式的調查報告就是不要說什麼初步的調查就是說整個結案然後向國人報告這樣子一個正式報告需要多久時間"},{"start":5139.046,"end":5155.774,"text":"這個案子是一級案一級案一般是一個月出報然後大概六個月以後有一個事實資料報告然後在一年之後最終的報告會出來但是這個案子我們投入了15個人在調查那我希望能夠縮短"},{"start":5157.04,"end":5185.863,"text":"縮短希望能夠縮短時間那就是剛剛主委有提到說這個我們是列為一級的一個事故那是不是可以請主委簡單說一下這個分級我們是怎麼樣去分級怎樣去認定這個分級這個分級是這樣子因為每個像航空水路鐵道公路它都有複雜度並不一樣那分級這個也是跟國際間都是大概都差不多到的效應但是講到因為譬如說航空"},{"start":5187.123,"end":5202.049,"text":"有些分期你認為是說我應該18個月我應該15個月可是有些航空機譬如說它的發動機或是它的很多結構物要送到國外去檢驗或什麼這個就有時候不在我們控制之內一般都可以在原則之內把它完成"},{"start":5202.569,"end":5229.2,"text":"是是那因為我們看到就是從2019年我們運安會改制之後啊就是總共執行了24件的重大是公路事故的一個調查那我們也發現就是說這些調查平均都有提早了2.4個月所以我們在這邊也希望就是說因為這個是一個全國矚目的一個重大車禍事故然後我們也希望就是說能夠儘早完成這個調查然後讓"},{"start":5231.341,"end":5254.377,"text":"就是可以一方面也是可以找出原因然後預防類似的事件在發生那另一方面也可以安定人心啊因為太多的揣測我覺得對社會也是不好的一個影響是不是那個主委是我們也是朝這個方向在做是好那我知道說我們對於整個就是運安會在執行這個重大車禍事故的一個調查可能就是"},{"start":5256.218,"end":5263.92,"text":"主要應該是兩個方面一個就是事實資料的一個收集以及包括後續分析作業那在這兩個方向可能在事實資料收集方的環節需要這個車禍事故的殘骸蒐證現場測量"},{"start":5274.424,"end":5286.265,"text":"紀錄器解讀跟人員訪談還有測試模擬等諸多項目那包括這麼多的一個工作要做那我請問一下就是主委這些工作啊我們的人員需要出差嗎"},{"start":5287.625,"end":5314.009,"text":"要 需要出差 要出差啦那因為我們也真的是就是很遺憾就是說看到今年度我們運營會的這個預算雖然今天我們是處理解凍當然就是說解凍的部分都已經處理完畢了可是針對國內旅費的部分事實上也是經過藍白聯手統三了20%統三之後我不曉得說這樣子的預算"},{"start":5317.37,"end":5346.309,"text":"可以就是來應付就是我們的這個就是相關的事故調查的量能嗎我們會變成會比較比較節縮啦但是就是就是會現在每一筆錢就會用得很緊啦但是國外就很吃苦啦國外很吃苦國外的非常非常非常痛苦因為我們要參加國外的會議啊去跟人家參加研討會議都現在都縮掉了這是比較痛苦"},{"start":5347.33,"end":5369.611,"text":"國外的部分就比較痛苦剛剛我們也聽到我們的召委對我們這個運安會有很大的期許也很支持說我們要多進行這個交流就是國外交流的部分事實上國外的旅費我們是整個所有的中央政府的各部會是全部被捅散60%的"},{"start":5371.613,"end":5376.863,"text":"這個規模是很大嘛所以被同山60%之後我們這樣預算大概剩多少"},{"start":5379.977,"end":5404.592,"text":"一百多萬而已嘛所以我們國外今年因為我們有參加國外很多的會議甚至我們是成員國嘛變成會排擠啦一定是會排擠的啦所以我們也是希望就是剛剛趙委員對你們有很大的期許啊那應該就是如我們林俊憲委員說的啦明年"},{"start":5405.092,"end":5429.957,"text":"我們稍微就不會再刪你們這個預算了我們也希望就是說未來在這個部分應該就是要支持讓我們因為整個社會的期待也希望我們孕安會的一個權威跟專業性應該就是要受到國人的一個肯定的所以這個部分真的就是說出國交流的部分真的是非常的重要"},{"start":5431.057,"end":5450.865,"text":"尤其是開會 譬如說我們是國際藝術安全調查安全所長聯會 我們是每一年一定要去開在這個平台上 我們國家的能限度 我們跟各國交換一些調查專業技術等等如果不去 確實是很遺憾"},{"start":5451.445,"end":5476.301,"text":"是是好那最後就是在這邊本席還在強調就是說我們依據運輸事故調查法第五條規定運安會對重大的運輸事故的調查旨在避免運輸事故的再發生所以這個就是在強調我們運安會最重要的工作就是要找出交通事故的這個原因並提出改善的一個建議那我們看到就是說"},{"start":5478.479,"end":5487.425,"text":"截至這個2024年就是去年為止 運營會針對重大的公路事故調查總共提出了改善的建議是158項那目前剩14項待改善改善率高達86%那就是說這些改善建議對於"},{"start":5498.312,"end":5524.089,"text":"就是交通的一個安全到底有沒有具體的改善我想這個才是國人重視的另外對這剩餘14項還沒有改善的這部分我們有去了解是什麼原因嗎對這些還沒改善的是因為它要編預算然後它還要修滑或什麼等等比較慢但是事實上我們都有具體成果譬如說騰龍岸對遊覽車車體的安全 座椅的安全"},{"start":5527.751,"end":5541.861,"text":"譬如說南方澳大橋那個案子就對橋樑安全就有改善大陸安全等等我想這個應該就是我們國人所期待需要的對江湖安全有具體改善成效的一個部分"},{"start":5542.842,"end":5560.426,"text":"是好我想這部分也是大家對於運營會的一個期許那我們也希望就是說在這部分不管是未來的就是國內的旅費或者是國外旅費的需求我們也希望就是我們全體委員都能夠支持好謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵謝謝好謝謝陳樹業委員的執行現在請喜智傑召委執行"},{"start":5581.768,"end":5608.163,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請議員會林主委主委好主委好主委我想很多委員都有問到這個三峽78歲這個三十的重大車禍那你們要調查一年喔要這麼久嗎"},{"start":5609.889,"end":5614.132,"text":"所以我是覺得運安會這樣子的態度我是覺得比較不積極啦"},{"start":5638.477,"end":5656.54,"text":"該有的程序當然我們會認為要做沒有錯該做的科學監聽當然我們也沒有叫你們要少啊但是這個在一般的民眾看起來這些事情要一年你們應該可以加快速度吧"},{"start":5658.238,"end":5682.43,"text":"事實上我們內部我有召開一個會議跟他們講說可不可以再縮短再縮短就跟為所關切一樣事實上我們在明年的一二月的草案就應該要出來了是啊但是我們還要經過委員會的程序我是這樣建議啦我是覺得你們運安會的執掌你看喔發覺事故根本原因及潛在風險並提出改善建議是"},{"start":5684.308,"end":5711.073,"text":"運營會其實不是只是事故的時候出現嘛運營會在平常的時候怎麼出現 用什麼角色出現就是你針對重大事故或者是針對國內的你們以前遇過的那現在你要去找出事故的根本跟潛在的風險那你們認為應該要怎麼樣才能夠讓運輸安全可以做得更好嗎"},{"start":5713.393,"end":5739.205,"text":"就像委員平常的關切的用AI我們現在現在有一些通報案子進來通報不一定要立案但是通報進來的時候我們都會開始用比較科學化的去統計說這個譬如說蓄積事件台鐵那我們講說這個好像有那個系統化的風險的問題的時候我們就會主動跟台鐵講對啊 所以你們有一些譬如說"},{"start":5740.543,"end":5768.648,"text":"你們的具體建議對國家的運輸安全有重大影響的可不可以讓你整理一些給我看沒有問題你比如說普悠瑪比如說太魯閣這個事故這麼嚴重這麼多年了那有沒有哪一項哪幾項是因為你們運營會的建議然後有具體的改善或者是說後面你們建議的還沒有改善你們有沒有追蹤"},{"start":5770.39,"end":5788.307,"text":"就是我希望他改善的但是他現在還沒改善我是覺得我一直覺得運安會給我的感覺就是我想看的那個積極性的主動性的那個效果但是不容易看到所以我希望說運安會其實可以調整比如說好我們針對"},{"start":5795.271,"end":5821.926,"text":"這一次的78歲的長者啦 事實上我們運輸安全不是針對年齡高低嘛 對不對我們運輸安全是針對安全駕駛嘛那你如何能夠有安全駕駛的空間 現在交通部也在研議嘛那運安會有沒有功能有沒有角色 有沒有建議以上是我自己我們秘書去查的啦 讓你當參考啦"},{"start":5824.815,"end":5851.455,"text":"就是說換照的制度換照的制度台灣現在是75歲以後然後呢新加坡、韓國是65歲以後日本、美國是70歲以後英國是年滿70歲自動失效然後法國是15年體檢一次那從安全價值的角度來看"},{"start":5852.932,"end":5877.922,"text":"這個換照的年齡不能說只針對老人也不要讓老人誤解一個長輩發生車禍我們說的長輩要受害不是這樣而是就是說我從安全駕駛的角度來看我應該是多久或者是幾歲或者是重大傷病有一個不一樣的安全駕駛的"},{"start":5880.061,"end":5902.117,"text":"觀念去針對這個換照制度做一個調整不是只是針對老人我強調一次而是強調的是安全駕駛人家90歲了你個畫面機能很好像我們看到那個市莊醫那一百零幾歲了還能夠打羽毛球對不對人家身體好"},{"start":5903.137,"end":5927.773,"text":"各項健康檢查都通過他要繼續開車那當然就符合標準就可以開啊所以不是年紀的問題啊那這個部分雲南會可有想法年齡的問題當然跟委員講的我想一樣啦不是說作為不是真正的意願我說雲南會可有作為啦對我們的作為是這樣我們事實上對事務我們是"},{"start":5932.476,"end":5952.372,"text":"調查然後我們對症下藥嗎那如果對症下藥找出來的原因如果跟交通部的一些就剛剛講高齡然後認識安全駕駛有關係我們會跟他連結啦對我的意思就是說因為時間差不多了重點我是我一直期盼雲南會主動出擊啦事故當然是被動出擊嘛但是"},{"start":5953.666,"end":5968.571,"text":"掌握事故根本原因潛在風險提出改善建立這個應該是主動出擊是是是好不好是我們之後會把一些資料給委員報告好好這個部分希望雲南會可以加強好是好好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝喜智傑召委現在請習護魁委員執行"},{"start":5988.619,"end":6008.917,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們林主委主委早 主委我想我剛剛聽到我們前面幾位委員針對這個三峽事故的一個詢問那我聽到主委的答案 我覺得很遺憾 主委"},{"start":6010.859,"end":6032.75,"text":"一個這樣的案子竟然要調查一年才會出爐那我們交通部這個部長隔天就已經有宣布了一些新的一些政策甚至在下個月這些政策就要陸續上路但是萬一你們調查的結果跟我們交通部推出的改革的一個政策不一樣的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":6034.151,"end":6055.665,"text":"這會不會有這樣一個矛盾的問題應該不會不會好 主委我想這個我們最近我們看到包含我們的這個很多的現在這個都會區包含我們這個很多的重要的一個鄉鎮我們的標誌標線甚至這個燈號都會做一些調整改善那我想我們都是為了行人安全"},{"start":6056.365,"end":6073.211,"text":"那我想三峽這個事故一樣,它那個標誌標線也要清澈啊啊為什麼還有發生這樣的一個狀況難道這個必須還要花一年的時間才能夠調查,不能有一個初步的一個結果趕快讓交通部做一個後續改革的一個參考嗎,這樣不能加快時程"},{"start":6074.622,"end":6097.667,"text":"加快施捨就自從我報告過了我們現在動員15個人在調查這個案子我們會想辦法把它縮短它自己縮短到一個月或多久我還不知道因為要看過程中我們都清楚因為我們現在你們職責裡面當然我們是必須要把問題理清楚那你們現在手邊的案子也這麼多我剛剛聽到你們動員了15個人在處理這個案對不對"},{"start":6102.128,"end":6119.082,"text":"好 我也擔心 你們先15個人調來處理這個案子之後把過去累積的案子 再放在一邊針對這些水路 公路 航空的事件調查結果是不是又要拖延很久會不會又造成一個惡劑循環會排擠 會排擠這排擠你要改過 人家不只說排擠我們現在說的這個案子 差不多大家都在加班"},{"start":6125.379,"end":6141.531,"text":"是啦 所以我們也是希望不能因為這樣 要創一間創到這麼久 其他又崩壞這樣未來你這些政策的調整是要怎麼跟得上我們的腳步可以做的條件不然這一年保庇都不能再出事故 沒法情恥好 這邏輯很奇怪啊"},{"start":6143.672,"end":6156.135,"text":"我們其他組我們會彈性調度人力不支援啦我們希望不要這樣子的 這樣的內部的一個調整造成我們過去的一個調查機制的一個延宕 我覺得這是不對的一個方向啦"},{"start":6158.11,"end":6159.31,"text":"現在這個都上網在對外招考"},{"start":6187.489,"end":6200.125,"text":"都在民謠中沒有做這個坦白講我們也不可以隨便說阿媽阿狗都不可以我們一些專業事實上他有來到後來我們像我們有一組人進來的時候後來也經過委員去討論說好像"},{"start":6203.689,"end":6223.327,"text":"比較沒什麼苛刻 後來又重新對我來講所以我們很謹慎啦我們謹慎用專業的人啦但是你沒有找人你就不知道要做什麼這我們也是很緊的請神容易送神難啦 就很累啦就還是要謹慎啦你都叫你沒信心 你找人你都沒信心有啦 有啦 有啦 這很奇怪的邏輯啊"},{"start":6226.84,"end":6241.322,"text":"所以我想我們都很願意剛剛包含我們很多委員都很願意支持我們運營會的預算我們也希望補足你們的人力但是相對性你們要把你們的工作表現績效呈現出來這對國人比較有交代"},{"start":6243.605,"end":6266.73,"text":"我們的成效確實是很多我想我事後會把一些我們過去譬如說去年前年的我跟委員報告只是我們可能利於表達沒有讓人覺得說主委我們不要漂亮的報告我們要實務的作為啦好不好這真的是對我們整個運輸交通事故最重要的一個關鍵啦是是是你報告什麼"},{"start":6267.93,"end":6279.783,"text":"現在這麼漂亮,Paper這樣漂亮有什麼用?數據就不改善了,這有什麼用?這很矛盾的啦主委你有信心嗎?我都怕你因為我們調查出來的結果各主管機關,他們比較積極,我們就比較有成就感"},{"start":6289.98,"end":6307.625,"text":"阿你這樣 我覺得這又是道國的原因阿你不趕快報 趕快出來讓這個業務單位可以做改善 它是怎麼辦我們有些調查案 調查期間我們說會不會通告好 你想你這樣三峽事故一年後我想今天又發生一個 看了一個新聞一個九十幾歲的阿伯"},{"start":6309.045,"end":6327.395,"text":"人要走車就這樣 沒辦法走車還要人家插 這要怎麼開車類似這種事件我們都很擔心 但是你們現在針對交通部未來的政策你們可不可以先給一個方向 先給一個調查的一個結果我覺得這是大家要相輔相成最後來處理努力的一個結果啦我們會加速這個調查的期程"},{"start":6330.883,"end":6346.32,"text":"所以我想我們去年 醫院會提出了99個改善的建議分別是這個水路有55項這個鐵路有19項跟公路21項水路佔了將近很大的一個比例那尤其這個"},{"start":6347.361,"end":6373.013,"text":"因為立案調查的有162件的漁船的重大的水路事故我想我來組這個民進我們有很多的一個漁船的一個業者大家都希望可以平安但是這樣的一個事故發生 主委依你們現在目前的調查狀況到底需要改善的部會是農業部、交通部還是勞動部這跟我解明確的答案"},{"start":6373.982,"end":6399.1,"text":"目前最需要改善水路的應該是交通部 航港局他的案子最多原因是 什麼 原因出在哪裡原因就是他飲水人的作業的問題 飲水人法規 飲水人辦事處的問題最大對 找出問題之後 現在怎麼解決現在他局長也很積極 他們成立一個專案小組 每個月都在開會包括法規的修訂 包括執行面的問題等等"},{"start":6399.86,"end":6407.664,"text":"什麼時候會有一個具體的改善結果這個應該今年內會有很重大的一個進展因為他開會都有請我們過去練習跟他們討論"},{"start":6413.192,"end":6433.717,"text":"主委我還是要提醒依我們調閱到資料目前改善的完成率來看水路事故這兩年的改善完成率都是最低的那漁業也是我們很重要的一個產業我想這個漁業委員會則無旁貸怎麼樣強化我們這個水路跟漁船主委的安全主委可不可以再加快施程對 謝謝"},{"start":6436.906,"end":6460.574,"text":"好那另外我想我們這個我最近也一直針對我們小琉球跟昆町我們這個海域因為我們有很多潛水的一個遊客那我們發現了這個潛水的那個區域劃分跟所謂的一個漁船的這個航道頂尿不該清澈造成潛水客在這個航道裡面浮潛被漁船撞到這屬狗這隻魚"},{"start":6463.016,"end":6472.366,"text":"我想運營會也應該要來積極協調相關部會去做一個有效的釐清這該當是行政部門應該要怎麼去規範這樣的一個禁止一個潛水的行為"},{"start":6473.73,"end":6500.632,"text":"這後壁湖這個外海潛水客被漁船羅先生講打傷是這個案子是個案啦那我們有跟航港局那邊有跟他們聯絡說這個案子你們要去調查因為就如同委員講你們這個區域方面好像不清楚啦所以我們還是要希望趕快來做調查啊對啊我們有跟他們講這個案子雖然雖然我們沒有調查但是我們有資料跟他們聯繫對不只後壁湖喔連小琉球都有發生這種狀況小琉球也是喔是啊這很危險的是"},{"start":6503.496,"end":6526.466,"text":"主委 我想這樣我們再積極來處理好不好是 我也來開一個合標會我們來一起來共同來協調這個案子是 謝謝委員 指導好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝謝謝習富奎委員的執行現在請蔡其昌副院長執行蔡其昌副院長執行晚休息十分鐘請副院長"},{"start":6533.025,"end":6561.457,"text":"謝謝主席 請林主任委員好 應安衛林主委主委早主委早主委我想從那個三峽的車禍發生到今天在立法院我想很多委員不分朝野都很關心那社會大眾國人對這個案子到底是什麼樣的原因也都充滿著關心猜測那"},{"start":6563.612,"end":6581.943,"text":"主委現在的調查大概狀況進行到哪裡現在大概一個月內會有粗報出來那麼10月份會有一個事實資料報告出來那依據明年的1月草案就要出來然後明年5月會在委員會通過"},{"start":6584.484,"end":6603.383,"text":"我們動員的四個分組的人力大概有數個人力我希望能夠縮短這是我的期望好 這個就是大家都期待嘛我看徐副委員也是一樣大家都期待你能夠縮短那其實他最關鍵的大家為什麼會著急"},{"start":6605.425,"end":6628.722,"text":"是因為它會事故發生的原因 它會涉及未來在交通部也好 或者其他相關部會也好在許多政策的擬定上面會以事故最終的原因來做報告 來做調查一個車禍的發生 它有可能是機械問題它有可能是人為問題那人為問題裡面"},{"start":6631.977,"end":6648.853,"text":"因為大家知道他是一個有年紀的先生那年紀是不是影響駕駛的安全的關鍵或者跟年紀無關年輕人也可能會發生這樣的一個駕駛上的疏忽"},{"start":6649.761,"end":6678.343,"text":"所以換言之從環境因素機械因素到人為因素人為因素又分是不是年紀或者是不是其他的這個原因它都可能是這一個車禍這個嚴重車禍很重要大家必須要去釐清那也只有釐清的問題我們在法規跟政策上也才可以隨之而走所以雲南會走在最前端的角色也就是為什麼"},{"start":6679.444,"end":6704.233,"text":"國人同胞跟立法院的委員都要求運安會速度要快調查要明確給您在這裡是是那我知道嘛 這個從每一次都老問題啦譬如說包括運安會人事啦 人力不足啦運安會為求慎重啦所以其實就哪怕是一個車禍這個比起空中的 海上的都相對來得容易一點 但"},{"start":6705.365,"end":6721.119,"text":"調查起來還是剛剛主委講完最終確定還是要等到明年了啦所以換言之都超過半年以上那特別是國人對於這個問題包括交通部都引來社會的討論就是到底年紀是不是關鍵"},{"start":6722.588,"end":6737.653,"text":"很多不是前輩啦 長輩都還來打電話給我說他覺得他很健康他覺得他開車沒有問題他的反應比年輕人還要好那其實個案我沒辦法表示什麼"},{"start":6738.653,"end":6756.476,"text":"個案我沒辦法表示,老人家也有身體,年輕人也不表示每一個年輕人都身心反應都很快嘛這個很難用年紀絕對來區分,但年紀他一定程度人老化他一定反應速度平均值上面一定比較相對弱一點,這個大概無庸置疑"},{"start":6757.421,"end":6775.189,"text":"那到底它是什麼那這裡面會涉及到交通部怎麼來定義也讓很多的老人家他覺得他受到歧視他覺得年紀 用年紀來歧視他是不合理的所以這裡面的關鍵我也不知道所以我也無法回答我就在等運安會的一個結果"},{"start":6776.643,"end":6797.769,"text":"所以主委我看了一下像日本在2019年在時代也發生過類似老人家的車禍開車造成的慘劇所以日本在2022年他就強制要新車裝上所謂的黑盒子其實也就是EDR台灣到目前為止我們是大客車跟大貨車有裝EDR"},{"start":6806.786,"end":6819.175,"text":"那運安會會不會建議交通部或者相關部會對於未來的新車就是我們的自小客車要加裝一點我們的調查重點裡面有一些屬於車輛機械跟設備檢測的分組"},{"start":6833.086,"end":6862.472,"text":"那我相信我們調查出來的這個結果會跟交通部會有交集啦會有交集那像這次三峽車或者這個舊的這個TOYOTA那個車齁照道遠講他是舊車他應該是沒有EDR啦就所謂 欸新車現在也沒有 但是他現在有那個特斯拉有EDR之外其他也沒有 他這部車剛好有EDR 喔剛好有所以我們現在是在解讀好 那會不會未來在你們的"},{"start":6863.132,"end":6879.189,"text":"建議當中方便你們的調查你們會不會建議交通部說未來新車啊就以後在台灣賣的車輛都必須把EDR作為一個標準配備運航會有沒有這樣的想法我這邊的資料是台灣在116年"},{"start":6882.012,"end":6896.315,"text":"現在114嘛 116你就規定都要裝新型的這個EDR對 就是已經116年開始的新車都要裝了對就是這樣子嘛那他不管什麼樣的車型都要裝"},{"start":6897.95,"end":6914.816,"text":"大大小小的車子啦載貨載人的都要裝嘛對不對那這個是運安會給的建議嗎不是這是交通部的政策好那運安會如果有這樣的EDR對運安會的運作來講譬如說以路上的車禍而言你們的時間可不可以再縮短"},{"start":6916.292,"end":6938.371,"text":"對我們的調查當然幫助很大幫助很大嗎?對,很大所以主委你也不反對嗎?我贊成你贊成,OK好所以簡單講就是說我提這個其實對我來講我並不了解它的成本就是說裝了之後對消費者他的購買新車他要增加多少成本但是我相信對於事故的調查會有幫助"},{"start":6939.071,"end":6968.177,"text":"那大家會期待過去我們在講說叫你們增加人力啊等等這個問題我覺得都很困難啦講再講講再講其實都效果有限所以我們應該反過來再想其他透過其他的路徑有沒有辦法再讓你們的調查報告可以速度更快可以更精準這個才是第二條除了叫你們增加人力啊增加效率啊之外還有什麼外部輔助的方式"},{"start":6969.327,"end":6989.823,"text":"這個是本席今天質詢的重點我們的調查品質就會更好啦所以我的意思還是期待啦因為政策的前端就是運安會啦特別像這個事件過後到底政策要怎麼調整法規要不要修改其實前端在你們啦"},{"start":6990.416,"end":7011.591,"text":"我覺得這樣也比較科學啦不然老人家會覺得他受到歧視嘛但如果真的怎麼樣的老人家的有些老人家是健康的身心反應都沒有問題但有一些可能不行那這個時候該怎麼去做調整以確保大家的安全這個其實也是很重要的所以不用年紀去歧視老人家但"},{"start":7012.572,"end":7028.409,"text":"國人的在行的路上的安全像這一次這種讓人家這麼難過的事情我們不希望它再發生所以怎麼樣很精準的把我們想要改變的問題把它集中要害的處理而不要盡量不要去誤"},{"start":7029.41,"end":7048.344,"text":"誤傷那個無辜啦 我覺得這個是最重要我們的立場也是這樣子啦 完整的調查真正對症下藥啦對對對 因為要對症下藥啦不然的話 每一個政策出來都讓一堆無辜的人 也不對那你不處理 也不對因為我們不希望看到這種那麼讓人難過的事情再發生啦謝謝委員知道 謝謝謝謝蔡其昌副院長休息十分鐘"},{"start":7067.67,"end":7068.231,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7105.209,"end":7115.597,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7131.971,"end":7143.899,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7158.283,"end":7173.775,"text":"蕃茄"},{"start":7186.056,"end":7188.457,"text":"河沙沙"},{"start":7209.053,"end":7214.475,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7236.508,"end":7241.58,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7252.512,"end":7266.207,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":7278.605,"end":7278.785,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7294.501,"end":7305.551,"text":"好,好,好,好"},{"start":7322.69,"end":7348.525,"text":"這裏有個大廈,大廈的大廈"},{"start":7354.226,"end":7360.391,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":7370.43,"end":7370.71,"text":"鸡蛋"},{"start":7387.763,"end":7387.984,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7410.609,"end":7417.331,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7431.518,"end":7431.559,"text":"哦哦"},{"start":7451.665,"end":7467.453,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7470.86,"end":7471.581,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7502.776,"end":7507.557,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7511.418,"end":7511.438,"text":"哈啰"},{"start":7534.835,"end":7535.115,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7569.871,"end":7574.655,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7585.995,"end":7586.676,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":7612.435,"end":7614.816,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":7638.151,"end":7658.404,"text":"好請坐我們繼續開會好現在蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在現在請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":7667.952,"end":7675.036,"text":"好 謝謝主席 邀請我們林主委好 應安會林主委委員長好"},{"start":7681.119,"end":7699.58,"text":"今天大概委員的集中焦點大概是5月19號這個非常重大的一個車禍也造成了全民震驚大家對於這些年輕的生命在這一場的車禍中造成了三人死亡還有眾多人受傷"},{"start":7700.501,"end":7724.364,"text":"那5月21號看到我們的運安會要啟動調查的一個程序變成公路的一個重大事故的一個調查我覺得對於很多民眾包括我們的一個期待因為運安會在專業的調查之下希望能夠找出真正的一個原因分析原因然後最後能夠提出改善的一個建議這是大家希望的"},{"start":7725.08,"end":7741.468,"text":"不過真正運安會一個完整的一個體系整個運作然後整個報告出來可能要等一年但我一直在想因為很多那個制度交通部會說明年可能1月就要去很多一個改變那他要改變的東西到底是不是真正的問題"},{"start":7742.829,"end":7768.116,"text":"變成了我們現在一個問號不過我們可以來討論一下當然不管是人車環境在這整個你們研究的一個過程我們真的是希望都有一些建言都有一些結論能夠讓我們的交通單位來做一個參考不管說在人的方面他的一個駕駛身心的一個部分他怎麼樣去"},{"start":7769.336,"end":7788.424,"text":"能夠未來調整他怎麼樣考照更有換照更有鑑別度然後他的回信到底他怎麼樣是一個比較有意義的然後再來他的身心的一個情況在這樣的的車禍中他到底扮演什麼樣的一個角色因為感覺在連警政單位都還在調查中"},{"start":7789.324,"end":7809.696,"text":"那第二個在整個道路設計包括我們在地方的一個交通的一個單位也是不斷的他們要去研究有沒有辦法在我們交通設計這個不管是標線耗資來做一個改善今天比較花時間去討論一下你這個以車的部分車的部分我們現在不管是車輛的性能"},{"start":7810.376,"end":7827.387,"text":"不管是新車老車它的輔助系統的一個情況我們希望說你們在調查中間能夠有一些具體的一個想法那這一次我們特別有看到我們三峽這個重大交通事故特別是長輩加上老車"},{"start":7832.31,"end":7853.981,"text":"這個老人家加上老車那當然這個東西這種組合是不是如果是新型的車它的功能有沒有可能能夠避掉這樣一個問題啦不過這個東西等於事後諸葛但是我正在想未來有很多那個包括日本很多國家他對於這些老的這個車輛他希望能夠有一些先進的"},{"start":7855.822,"end":7870.452,"text":"設計這個部分我們希望也是未來你們在做結論的面向針對這三個面向都會有一些結論嗎你先說明一下我想我們的調查重點裡面可能會卡姆剛委員所提的啦譬如說我們我們的調查裡面會"},{"start":7873.333,"end":7886.858,"text":"會有一個分支叫做車輛機械跟設備的一些檢測當然有包括學區的學者的安全等等這裡就會涉及到剛剛委員你所提的道路設計的問題等等會被cover到"},{"start":7888.186,"end":7908,"text":"好 當然我們現在比較今天討論就說車輛老舊的相關的問題當我們也知道因為車輛在使用的過程中它的一個雖然年紀差不多但是行駛里程不太一樣甚至保養的一個細菌度不太一樣真的所以同一年齡的譬如10年15年的車它的車況確實會不一樣"},{"start":7910.802,"end":7927.875,"text":"不過我們來看一下目前台灣在這個自用小客車在整個統計來講超過10年以上到15年的這個車輛大概是22%那在15年以上還合格在路上跑的206萬大概有29%"},{"start":7932.72,"end":7954.541,"text":"總體來說10年以上比較舊型的車輛大概占比超過一半我不知道就說在運安會這個部分你們過去對於自用腳刻車不管是ADAS你們也做過一些調查也有一些做一個結論因為畢竟我們在講年紀不是問題但是因為科技不斷的推陳出新"},{"start":7955.382,"end":7977.962,"text":"可以大概推論15年以上的車輛先進的ADAS很多的系統它並沒有融入在裡面所以我們在想說你們在研究的過程中對於這樣的比較老舊的一些車輛你們有沒有朝向可不可能有一些增設輔助系統這個方向來去做推論呢"},{"start":7978.622,"end":7993.934,"text":"我是從報紙上看到交通部有人這樣建議說老車也可以裝這個ADAS但是這個我們是樂觀其成因為我們不是他的主管機關當然你裝ADAS是有幫助的"},{"start":7995.629,"end":8015.719,"text":"對駕駛也是有幫助的好 那老舊的車輛我們真的希望說交通部跟我們運安會有些專業的意見對這個提出來因為你們經過了一年研究我們希望在細節度包括面向是真的有實際的一個很重要的價值而不是說現在很多問題 哇 這個是一個新聞的熱點"},{"start":8016.88,"end":8040.447,"text":"然後因為你一年的時間其實你們面向已經不是解決這個新或者大家的一個民怨的問題你們要一個專業的一個全面向的出來你剛剛特別講現在ADAS新車很多系統他們都變成一個標配那當然對於目前沒有這些ADAS系統的這個部分我們也去了解一下在業界大概一般警示型的"},{"start":8041.027,"end":8064.456,"text":"警示型的可以外加像前車碰撞警示系統車道偏移它有可能可以外加但是主動控制要結合到整個車輛電腦要自動煞車等等的這個部分可能沒有辦法任意加裝在如果原始沒有設計並不容易剛剛有委員也問過現在包括日本對於長輩對於長輩怕暴衝 油門誤觸"},{"start":8068.638,"end":8090.336,"text":"他們有特別來政府補助來加裝這個防爆衝的一個系統那你這個部分你的看法如何我覺得當然對醫術安全有幫助我們當然樂觀其成啦但是這可能是涉及配套的問題還有經費的問題啦我沒有辦法替交通部來打但是我覺得這是一個不同的方向啦"},{"start":8091.451,"end":8103.672,"text":"你的整體的報告我覺得是整個思考這些面向當然現在沒有辦法去做結論但這個方向到底怎麼樣那我想說今天因為時間也不多啦我特別看到"},{"start":8105.202,"end":8132.583,"text":"你們針對這個重大運輸事故的報告在針對112年11月30號在高速公路大亞路段自小客車因為他採用這個ADAS自駕系統撞到了工程的緩撞車這件事情你們也做了一年的一個調查在113年113年去年11月做出的調查報告我也特別看了 特別注意到你中間有寫到這一段"},{"start":8133.743,"end":8153.577,"text":"就是說我國車輛刑事安全審驗未要求通過這個聯合國相關檢測的基準規範就是說那怎麼辦你也說啦所以說我們這個在台灣這個在銷售的不管是緊急煞車輔助系統等等的這樣的一個的一個設備啊需要靠我們車輛啊"},{"start":8159.648,"end":8185.609,"text":"自體公司或者銷售的自己的公司然後去確認這個系統是不是能夠真正正常運作而且你這個寫的是 是你的建議是希望什麼蠻饒舌的 你希望是什麼就是我國沒有 你是希望我國變成有還是是你查到這個現況嘛 是沒有那你這個要具體建議是什麼 你希望是什麼"},{"start":8187.051,"end":8200.279,"text":"我所知道的交通部好像已經完成立法準備要往這方面推動了就是未來就是現在包括甲乙類的納克車跟那個載重的貨車這個N2 N3大概12噸以上的這個3.5噸以上的需要配備這個車輛就主動一定要配備"},{"start":8210.805,"end":8228.11,"text":"那我們對於這個自小課的一個查驗系統現在還是靠我們車界的一個良心跟對自己的信心我們是希望能夠變成國家的一個標準能夠納管這個方向你應該也是支持的嘛"},{"start":8229.19,"end":8245.998,"text":"這個應該是這個方向是對的好那這個部分未來我們跟交通部在討論這個過程也希望讓這個部分能夠完全納管也希望有些專業的部分我們運安會能夠提供專業的意見我們支持我們支持這個好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝魯明哲委員的執行現在請鄭天才委員執行"},{"start":8270.118,"end":8280.752,"text":"主席有請這個我們主委委員長主委好辛苦了"},{"start":8283.99,"end":8307.801,"text":"這個國家運輸安全調查委員會的組織法除了重大運輸事故的這些通報處理調查相關的這個分析另外還有一個就是運輸事故歧視分析運輸安全改善建議還有追蹤這些這方面的好我們看了這個"},{"start":8312.392,"end":8339.221,"text":"去年 去年因為04 03花蓮這個大地震大地震當天這個鐵路都沒有怎麼樣 北迴鐵路北迴鐵路已經完成興建了幾十年了每一次大地震 大颱風風雨都沒有怎麼樣那04 03大地震當下也沒有怎麼樣"},{"start":8340.652,"end":8367.095,"text":"是後來因為很多很多的遺症非常多的遺症造成土石洶洞所以6月21號去年的6月21號下大雨開始從那時候開始這個土石流一下大雨就土石流這那一次真的很算是很幸運6月21號發生的這個事情"},{"start":8371.858,"end":8399.33,"text":"這個總共有乘客火車裡面新自強號火車裡面總共有500多人這個司機鎖骨者旅客受傷人數8人這是很幸運很幸運好我要談的是什麼經過這樣的一個6月21號到現在已經快要一年了快要一年了"},{"start":8402.042,"end":8428.523,"text":"我們看最近的這是今年的今年五月但我中間還有七年六月到五月今年五月中間還有一些土石流現在一下大雨就土石流了這是最近的5月18號還好也是沒有造成人員傷亡這個"},{"start":8431.823,"end":8458.355,"text":"志強號的火車正好也還沒有經過快要到那邊了就有這樣的一個警戒所以沒有造成任何的火車跟人員的傷亡這是很幸運的我要談的是什麼呢從去年六月到現在已經快一年了到下個月就一年了這個"},{"start":8461.94,"end":8489.391,"text":"我們看這個計劃交通部很快的提計劃在交通部改來改去快一年了這個計劃送出來到現在還沒有核定我們來看看這個比較這個只有其實以這一段核能到崇德1.6公里1.6公里而已應該優先去"},{"start":8491.892,"end":8518.218,"text":"改善加強趕快改善看要重新做隧道還是怎樣總是要核定我們看北迴鐵路北迴鐵路1973年10月因為那拉颱風重篡東部的交通兩個月當時的省主席跟行政院的院長蔣經國報告"},{"start":8521.358,"end":8540.348,"text":"馬上就核定兩個月核定新建北迴鐵路列為十大建設列為十大建設兩個月然後開始執行六年就通車總共北迴鐵路79.2公里總共橋大的橋22座隧道16個隧道"},{"start":8551.605,"end":8578.107,"text":"這樣的一個當時的快速的重視最主要是重視我們看因為這個剛才講那一段涉及到鐵路也涉及到公路涉及到公路我們做比較抒發改97年11月10號行政院核定可行性研究就開始進行然後兩年一個月"},{"start":8579.212,"end":8607.28,"text":"就核定興建計畫工程的興建計畫兩年一個月這是蘇花改這是比較困難的以蘇花公路的話來講這是比較困難的很多隧道比較比較容易做的蘇花安108年12月20號行政院核定可行性研究到現在五年多了都還沒有核定興建工程計畫"},{"start":8609.349,"end":8631.089,"text":"最起碼你這段河仁道河仁道崇德這一段1.6公里先做也可以啊都停擺我的意思是怎麼樣這個部分當然是跟看起來是跟那個跟我運輸會有什麼關係國家運輸安全調查委員會有什麼關係"},{"start":8637.726,"end":8663.975,"text":"這個我剛剛有提到運輸安全改善的建議當然現在不要去調查調查又浪費時間又會停擺不要成為理由就是要請交通部請交通部趕快像鐵路的部分還在交通部到現在還沒有核定還要報行證驗"},{"start":8666.409,"end":8686.387,"text":"所以這個部分是不是這個國家運輸調查委員會啊能夠根據本席今天的質詢的建議當然我也質詢過交通部但是你要讓他知道這個會造成重大事故的時候就有責任喔所以趕快喔可以嗎"},{"start":8690.015,"end":8707.289,"text":"我們一般每三個月每半年都會有對改善建議的會議要做檢討我們把這個訊息再告訴台鐵交通部交通部最主要是交通部所以這個部分因為真的是很幸運但是不是一直都很幸運"},{"start":8708.55,"end":8721.96,"text":"就是總是要趕快做這1.6公里也沒有多長好不好先不要啟動調查不然又慢了對不對又停擺了好不好是謝謝謝謝委員趕快轉達給交通部謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員現在請葉元之委員執行"},{"start":8745.143,"end":8768.56,"text":"來麻煩請願安會主委謝謝願安會林處委好 委員長主委早我們有看到說針對那個之前三峽的重大交通事故願安會已經準備要立案調查對不對我們期待說願安會可以針對這個公務事件可以真正找出原因並且提出改善的方法"},{"start":8769.361,"end":8783.858,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為這段時間發生非常多的重大交通事故除了剛剛那個三峽之外我們有看到重慶南路也有一個車禍也是有一台車爆衝後來衝撞了四台車有八個人受傷那請問預案會會針對這一起事件立案調查嗎"},{"start":8787.305,"end":8802.762,"text":"這個案子沒有沒有為什麼沒有立案為什麼不立案他不在我們重大運輸事故的範圍裡面是因為那兩個差別是因為是有死傷的人數的差別嗎對他這個是個別的"},{"start":8804.263,"end":8826.517,"text":"特別的案件什麼叫個別的案件那三峽這個案子是因為因為全國矚目社會關注這個是特別為了用報案條款特別立案的所以如果社會矚目重大事件是就會關注那這個重慶南路這個車禍我覺得社會也蠻矚目的因為網路那個影片到處傳是非常驚悚的所以有立案跟沒立案的差別在哪裡"},{"start":8827.515,"end":8840.393,"text":"有一項個便利案就是他他是不是剛報告他是不是重大藝術事務範圍裡面的這個案子跟三峽那個案子的差別在哪?因為我剛報告他社會矚目嘛社會矚目"},{"start":8844.443,"end":8869.978,"text":"我想那個案子社會矚目是因為很不幸有一些小朋友還有一個女騎士她過世嘛應該是這樣所以大家會矚目但是這個重慶南路這個車禍其實你如果有看那個影片他也是非常驚悚他一台車衝過去剛好有幾位行人在過馬路然後是因為那個行人看到車子有閃了有閃開了所以沒有造成有人命的傷亡"},{"start":8870.765,"end":8876.634,"text":"那如果說不是說那些行人他散開的話其實後果也不堪設想啊"},{"start":8877.796,"end":8899.504,"text":"所以我覺得如果我現在就不太懂那個越安會立案的標準到底在哪裡如果以重大矚目的話其實這個事情你可以去看網路討論度也是非常高我覺得那個也是重大矚目的因為越安會的標準應該在定的更嚴謹一點那當然你們是有一個標準我們來看一下這是越安會重大運輸事故範圍的一個討論"},{"start":8901.773,"end":8919.686,"text":"裡面就有提到譬如說有造成死亡三人以上或者是有生命身體財產重大影響重複發生情況特殊或新興運據事故之前就有一個案子在湖北嘛 它是一台車然後車禍就調查 原因是因為它是新興運據"},{"start":8921.187,"end":8932.513,"text":"我問你們想要去了解是不是因為又啟用了無人駕駛或什麼因素才造成事故應該是這樣嘛但像剛剛我舉的重慶南路那個事故那個事件啊其實也是一個蠻特殊的狀況"},{"start":8933.7,"end":8959.42,"text":"所以我覺得預案會也可以去研究一下然後第二個我們是希望說預案會立案調查了解原因提出具體改善之道並且得到問題的解決我覺得這個才是最關鍵的問題可是我們去看了預案會的很多調查報告很多不了了之我這邊就舉一個舉一個案例比如說之前有一個債的嫖白水的"},{"start":8962.03,"end":8975.581,"text":"一個罐潮車他在台二線往東貢遼路那因為他超車超車可能有超速然後後來失控就翻覆這個事件主委已經知道嘛因為這個有立案調查你知道嘛"},{"start":8976.542,"end":8993.516,"text":"那你可以看一下這邊寫的你們的建議你們的最後異動時間我們紅色圈起來是113年11月21號那個是去年11月21號等於是這個案子已經調查完畢了因為他是112年10月發生的所以一年後你們調查完畢了113年11月調完畢那現在的狀態"},{"start":8997.559,"end":9023.359,"text":"有一個很具體的改善內容喔所要制定在不同的設計速率下之最短可超車行駛距離座位連續禁止超車路段之最短間隔長度之依據等等等等等等然後11月21號到今天已經過半年了建議狀態叫做等候回覆或處理中換言之你調查了也發文給交通部了"},{"start":9024.212,"end":9052.923,"text":"但是呢這半年全部都在等交通部的回覆那問題解決了嗎沒有解決因為他還沒回覆所以沒有解決那等到他回覆如果你們運安會不滿意來來回回來來回回都不知道要搞好幾年了所以既然已經我剛剛我們這樣質詢下來第一個其實運安會要立案調查是一件很困難的事情啊連重慶南路那樣的一個社會矚目關注事件都沒有立案調查"},{"start":9054.068,"end":9078.369,"text":"結果立案調查的案件經過了一年多的調查找到了問題提出了建議發問給交通部又等了半年沒有回覆也不知道什麼時候可以改善啊這個速度我相信國人不會接受因為任何的重大交通事故它都有可能會重複發生在其他的路段造成其他的重大事故我說的大家要超前部署防範於未來可是這樣的進程"},{"start":9079.87,"end":9095.906,"text":"我覺得大家不能接受所以院會你們可以提出什麼改善的方式嗎他這個發布之後被就是受建議當然他有90天的回復期90天那你現在已經半年沒回來半年如果有紓解沒錯的話應該是180天嘛90天回復期嘛"},{"start":9100.1,"end":9127.596,"text":"那回復期持完之後我們要看看他的改善建議是不是可行然後我們就會報行政院所以我聽不懂你現在你請他了嘛對不對你是11月21號上傳這個報告嘛那理論上你應該是11月21號你就發文給他請他回復嘛是不是然後他90天回復期那他應該在2月21號就要回了啊剛剛執行長告訴我這個案子他90天回復期完之後被退回因為不可行"},{"start":9128.666,"end":9150.217,"text":"不可行就退回所以針對交通重大事故運安會跟交通部你們的互動方式是文來文往就對了不是不是不是就是他發文給你你又退給他他再發文給你你又退給他大家就是只上作業那這個運安調查都沒有積極性你的機制就是文來文往喔我請組長說明一下他比較瘦"},{"start":9153.981,"end":9171.059,"text":"那這個本案的話那主要有三個感言建議那目前主要是在等待交通部的這一項那交通部這一項應該是在我們90天的回覆期他應該是2月19號到期那交通部他他沒有到期所以我們有立即就發出急催函"},{"start":9171.619,"end":9196.58,"text":"交通部是3月24號回覆那我們在觀問過程中覺得他的這個內容不可行所以就請他再重提那目前我們有持續的一個激催我們大概激催了三次那我們目前是依花針對本案那我們會在未來的兩個禮拜找交通部針對這個這一個感恩建議為何交通部一直沒辦法提出具體的可行的計畫來跟我們做研討所以嘛我現在只是舉一個個案而已嘛"},{"start":9197.02,"end":9211.503,"text":"你現在你們跟交通部的關係就是你找到的問題你請他改善他不理你嘛你還要雞吹那你不就突顯交通部沒有再把交通安全當一回事嗎如果一個重大交通事件社會矚目的預案會都發現問題了交通部愛理不理"},{"start":9212.766,"end":9236.616,"text":"然後你現在才講說因為擠出來他都不理你你們政府有在關心交通安全嗎你們都沒有一些什麼強制的機制譬如說交通部陪你還有上級機關有一個行政院現在大家那麼重視道安有沒有一個行政院的一個層級的可以要求交通部趕快處理真的聽了都覺得很離譜耶那現在因為這個朝"},{"start":9240.601,"end":9261.99,"text":"萬巢車翻覆那當時也是社會矚目啊經過一兩年大家沒關注了那就文來文往了那現在三峽這個重大事件大家關注了啊你們說要立案調查會不會一年後一樣找到問題傳給交通部交通部三個月回你你覺得不滿又推給他然後結果他又再不回你你又雞吹然後又沒完沒了這樣就把行人安全當當開玩笑嘛"},{"start":9263.03,"end":9288.031,"text":"你們都沒有那個機制嗎?可以交通部趕快改善嗎?跟委員報告其實我們提供的給交通部的改善建議其實蠻多那其實基本上不是都不理我們只是說這一個項目有的理有的不理就對了這一個項目他在處理上面他這個是一個結構性的問題啦今天不跟個案講太多這是一個結構性的問題如果運安會的結論交通部都可以愛理不理的還要激催激催都沒用"},{"start":9289.076,"end":9306.168,"text":"那只是凸顯說你們交通單位沒有很重視這個事情希望說主委你可以好好跟交通部溝通如果你溝通不了的話你應該跟上面你們的在上一層的機關講嘛要解決這個協調的問題啦好不好沒有 這個是個案啦好啦 謝謝謝謝啦 謝謝委員會 謝謝謝謝葉延之委員現在請邱若驊委員執行"},{"start":9321.428,"end":9343.781,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席 主席有請 院會 林信德 林主委好 林主委委員早主委早 主委 先請問您是否還記得四年前 發生在四年前震驚全國的408太魯閣出軌事件意思說408太魯閣太魯閣您記得嗎"},{"start":9347.1,"end":9354.605,"text":"那這場事故他造成49人罹難是泰鐵近年最嚴重的意外嗎所以那根據當時的調查泰魯閣出軌的原因是為什麼就是臨軌工程的問題嗎"},{"start":9362.632,"end":9388.332,"text":"鐵軌工程的問題那它是有違規的情形嗎它是違規施工沒錯吧那就是因為違規施工它導致工程車滑落自軌道造成列車出軌那主委當時應安會有對台鐵提出什麼樣的建議改善建議我們有提出請台鐵台鐵後來有頒布一個叫做鄰軌工程安全防護措施的要點那也把它納入"},{"start":9389.153,"end":9410.531,"text":"林委工程的採購企業的範本裡面他有在做那除了還有其他的嗎還有其他的機制跟程序嗎其他有啦其他像這個應該將這個施工廠商把他列為內部的安全管理的重要的一環都把他納入不能把他把他好像他是話外之名不可以都拉進來那台鐵有在做"},{"start":9411.252,"end":9423.167,"text":"那最近我是還有一些案子又跑出來有一些案子跑出來那本席 本席這老師當初院會有建議要加強靈鬼的施工管理還有通報機制吧然後還有監督的程序那我們看到這張投影片就是"},{"start":9424.679,"end":9444.638,"text":"社團上面的一個貼文他說在七堵在內有外包廠商他沒有申請他擅自進入到營運的路線旁邊進行施工那他也沒有依照程序來報備七堵幾乎斷那這樣的施工行為是不是跟當年太魯閣事件中的靈鬼施工管理失當有相似之處"},{"start":9445.479,"end":9468.857,"text":"有相似之處有相似之處那我相信當時運安會也有提出就是在事件蔡五格事件之後也有建議那有沒有對台鐵就是提出相關的建議就是改善建議我們定期在行政會會對台鐵的安全改善有一個有一個提報會議那運安會也會派人參加這個案子我們會提報"},{"start":9469.622,"end":9497.928,"text":"那我們看到這個今天這個他這個行為是不是有違反靈鬼施工的管理確實是違反規定然後台鐵我們跟台鐵的聯絡結果表示他們一規定要拆滑是那主委那如果台鐵沒有主動通報的話那他這個慾安會你們也沒辦法及時掌握這樣的情況那表示那現在的他的監督機制是有漏洞的那想請教主委那慾安會他有沒有通報的平台"},{"start":9500.663,"end":9515.834,"text":"通報平台是有啦但是我覺得我們會再跟台鐵講說你這個既然說你改善已經完成為什麼又發現那請他加強落實啊那我們在行政院的會議裡面改革會我們也會再提報那今天是就是"},{"start":9517.395,"end":9544.856,"text":"今天是因為沒有發生事故那如果那針對像這樣沒有通報的施工如果通常運安會會調查是因為有事故的發生嘛那這樣子的話那我相信台鐵因為我們也看到這張虛情事件的通報單那他不一定會呈報到運安會那運安會得知這樣的情形你們要怎麼來做處置這個案子有通報沒有通報這個案子沒有通報"},{"start":9546.617,"end":9571.009,"text":"來 你要說明一下好 請說明 謝謝報告委員 因為這個案子呢就是因為台鐵的原來在太魯閣的這個事故裡面我們提出的這個改善建議那所以台鐵訂定了這個規定那它有一個一定的一個發現的機制所以在這個案件裡面台鐵的人員是立刻發現施工廠商違規進入這個施工場地的這個部分那所以他立刻發現就立刻"},{"start":9571.989,"end":9574.074,"text":"去做處理了那當時應安會有沒有建議台鐵說針對這樣的廠商台鐵應該要來做什麼樣的處置"},{"start":9582.761,"end":9602.554,"text":"因為運安會所提的那個改善建議裡面提的是在這個案子裡面我們發現的一些風險因素所以改善建議裡面是一個方向所以在那個剛剛所提到的委員所提到這個部分就是我們在90天之後台鐵提出一個分項執行計畫所以剛剛主委有報告說這個靈鬼施工"},{"start":9603.294,"end":9630.541,"text":"的一個安全防護的實施要點措施要點就是他的一個實施的一個方式他的分享執行計劃那我們現在是希望說在這一次透過這一次的一個事件裡面呢我們也希望說台鐵能夠加強去落實這一方面現在是建議就是應安會要督促台鐵就是全面的來盤點就是每個車站他們外包廠商施工的情況啦那包括也要強化他們進出設施的審核還有監工"},{"start":9631.001,"end":9656.367,"text":"沒有錯啦我們會跟台鐵有一個連續機制我們會跟他講我們一定會提一定會提在行政院應該會在強力的督促台鐵我們會強力強力要求OK好那主委我們接下來看到非安我們可以看到日前國際有發生多起的非安事故那造成很多傷亡主委請問像國外發生這樣的非安事故是不是可以提供我們更多非安的啟發讓我國的非安更加的安全更加的完善呢呃"},{"start":9663.03,"end":9686.967,"text":"我想這些資料我們航空調查組對國外的一些案例事實上我們都有收集那麼收集的一些原因比如說NTSB像韓國像日本其他國家的我們都有檔案database都有在建立建立之後我們在每一個定期的資源包括系統裡面也會把這些"},{"start":9687.748,"end":9711.894,"text":"比較典型的這種事故我們會會怎麼講會發佈定期發刊那個刊錄裡面給各個航空公司參考這本是在今天的解凍報告中有看到津津運輸事故的調查能量計畫那國際民航組織他聯合國專責管理還有發展世界各國民航事務的總部他設在加拿大的蒙特羅那你三年舉辦一次大會"},{"start":9713.174,"end":9720.651,"text":"五國音樂兩岸的因素還有政治因素嘛導致沒有辦法參加ICAO那請問主委運安會跟ICAO的互動情況目前是"},{"start":9722.475,"end":9745.348,"text":"我們應安會有參加三個國際組織一個是ITSA就是所謂運輸安全所長年度的聯會每一年開一次我們也參加SRC就是亞洲調查員的飛航安全協會還有一個是叫做IASS是國際飛航安全的年度會議我們在這三個平台裡面都會拿到最新資料都會拿到最新資料"},{"start":9746.488,"end":9767.003,"text":"是 因為我們沒有辦法加入ICL的關係嘛那我們在缺乏這個正式管道下一頁希望主委可以強化就是我國在國際間它非政府的非安機構的技術交流讓我國的非安更加安全是 是 我們都是這個方向是都一樣的再請主委繼續努力好 感謝 感謝委員知道 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝邱樂華委員的執行現在請何新淳委員執行"},{"start":9784.335,"end":9811.646,"text":"好 謝謝林昭偉 我們請林主任委員好 應運會的林主委黃委員早早好 主委其實我想今天早上很多委員都跟本席的今天的質詢的一個重點差不多一樣重點是在於我們都期待等一下封面 謝謝我們都期待運安會不只是一個事故後調查的獨立單位"},{"start":9812.226,"end":9835.201,"text":"在運安會的執掌裡面更應該強化有關全台灣的交通運輸的一個安全或者是其他專業上的專案延期建議這個我記得在運安會當時候成立以及成立週年的時候我也在這個地方在交通委員會曾經就美國"},{"start":9836.591,"end":9861.588,"text":"國家運輸安全委員會他們的職長他們的做法他們的有為到底是怎麼樣來提醒我們運安會也應該要做什麼我不知道主委還記得嗎是我知道你知道嘛對不對我不希望再過今年明年我同樣還要用這樣子的一個"},{"start":9863.743,"end":9879.794,"text":"標題啊為什麼不是因為大家對運安會的期待啊你常常會跟我說不是啊你們通過的這個法跟我們成立的宗旨成立的這個目的跟成立現在的組織架構就是不一樣這個我覺得都是推脫改第一頁今天很多"},{"start":9880.394,"end":9899.24,"text":"委員都在談這個三峽重大車禍造成嚴重的死傷網路謠言是其實在於我們到目前為止還不知道真正的發生事故的原因還有專業上到底誰可以給我們一個真相那當然我們也非常"},{"start":9900.633,"end":9922.908,"text":"肯定看到立案會願意主動來立案調查因為你們的調查事故的專業那會讓國人信服在信服中間還必須要是你們的調查報告是夠專業是夠取信於民而且是能夠提出真正的一個建議如何的來改善"},{"start":9923.869,"end":9940.323,"text":"接著我們以目前看到國人都期待我們交通安全最重要人身安全最重要所以都期待運安會在事後調查之外阻掉延期運輸安全就我剛才一開始講的"},{"start":9941.792,"end":9967.934,"text":"主委這個現在呢剛剛我講的新北的三峽你立案要調查檢調單位現在也在調查就是司法體系也在調查我先問一個問題主委你曾經提過你跟司法單位有保持聯繫那提供專業的協助那你所謂的保持聯繫提供專業的協助是什麼部分"},{"start":9968.652,"end":9979.506,"text":"最主要是那個行車電腦EDR那個就是很專業必須用特殊的儀器把它解出來所以你提供特殊的儀器來提供檢調單位來做解析"},{"start":9980.249,"end":10005.476,"text":"對 我們現在知道有跟他互通有誤 還在解還在解因為他那個車子撞了之後有一些就是等於是說故障作用那你解要多久的時間 以你的專業為什麼要問這個問題因為這牽涉到調查的進度也提供給檢調希望能夠有一個初步的調查結果才能夠"},{"start":10006.917,"end":10021.536,"text":"歸咎責任的歸屬嗎我們這個三峽這個案子我們下個月就會有一個初步報告然後10月份會有一個事實資料報告然後明年1月大概草案就會出來明年5月份最終報告不是我的意思是說剛剛來來來你這是兩碼之事喔"},{"start":10024.7,"end":10052.14,"text":"第一件事我剛剛的問題是你說有跟現在的司法檢調單位保持橫向聯繫你說你提供專業的去解析他的ERD那這個專業的這個東西什麼時候你可以解析完畢我剛剛還沒報告完下個月的初步報告裡面就會有EDR的資料會解出來所以你的意思是說檢調單位要等到下個月你的初步的調查報告出來"},{"start":10053.171,"end":10058.237,"text":"所以你的一定要的參數要解析出來就是下個月的這個時候會跟檢調的調查跟你們的調查報告是同步"},{"start":10073.458,"end":10094.213,"text":"你剛剛是這樣子講嘛我為什麼這樣問因為這牽涉到是我們多久可以等得到初步的調查報告或是初步的事故發生的原因初步報告是下個月會出來對啊那因為你剛剛講你跟檢調單位都在保持聯繫啊是不是"},{"start":10095.214,"end":10111.037,"text":"我的意思是這個牽涉到我們多久需要等多久才能夠知道事故下一頁所以我在講除了事後的調查之外主要的一個運輸安全問題也可以主動研析就像剛剛很多委員提到的"},{"start":10111.497,"end":10133.359,"text":"全台灣各大重要的交通事故在公路系統方面我們有沒有收集數據有沒有來進行研析譬如說新北三峽是一個重大的交通事故那上個月台中的向上路也發生了重大的交通事故而這一個算不算在你的未來"},{"start":10134.46,"end":10143.016,"text":"因為你之前沒有立案那未來在你的公路系統的交通運輸的安全的延期裡面可不可以"},{"start":10144.332,"end":10170.699,"text":"全台灣各大公路系統的交通重大事故我們能夠來做一個盤點研析來告訴我們我們有可以有什麼樣的改善譬如說台中的向上路這一段經常發生車禍又是為什麼可以在你的報告裡面來呈現有沒有這個可能性可以做嗎 主委我跟委員報告每一年交通部大安會跟運營所"},{"start":10171.519,"end":10198.551,"text":"他們都會他們有個進度起來的專案小組會對全國各熱點幾個很容易發生重大因素可是我們現在看不到你說在大外匯報裡面會有這個東西可是我們現在看不到運安會對這些已經經常發生事故的一個交通熱點到底有什麼樣的建議跟作為啊所以這個案子我們會我們準備要來召集一個會議召集交通部相關器官我現在問你才說我現在來召集一個會議喔"},{"start":10199.619,"end":10223.055,"text":"不是我們要把這個案子拿出來到底這個路段為什麼會常常發生錯誤主委我現在的重點是在於不是因為我問了你才要說我要來召開一個會議來研究解析我現在是說應該運安會的公然在你的職長在法規的要求之下本來就對於交通運輸安全的一個專案研究解析跟提供改善意見嘛"},{"start":10224.356,"end":10249.826,"text":"那全台灣有那麼多的一個交通的重大事故那你剛剛也提到 道安匯報都會提供全國各縣市的一個交通意外事故的熱點那 立安會的高度 應該在全台灣的公路系統為什麼會有這些的重大的一個交通事故的熱點你明明可以掌握 那這些數據掌握了之後你有沒有進一步的去研究為什麼"},{"start":10251.306,"end":10264.134,"text":"如果有進一步的去研究為什麼找出原因可以來提供給各個該全責單位可以去進行改善的因為這個現在已經在做了啊現在在做為什麼看不到啊因為"},{"start":10266.895,"end":10272.78,"text":"因為交通部單位我看不到你們在做什麼啊就是國人因為看不到你們在做什麼所以都對你們這個單位獨立機構的存在覺得無感啊不是因為現在交通部單位跟運營所他們已經在做每一年都在做每一年都在做但是呢我建議的是"},{"start":10287.631,"end":10300.935,"text":"除了運營所我們也看不到那如果我們的定安會也覺得這不是你的業務範圍不要在你的公路系統的一個交通運輸安全的一個研析立案來專案研究來盤點全台灣"},{"start":10304.795,"end":10321.745,"text":"主委你會繼續的無感存在啊我們可以把它做一個立案為什麼要這麼說在下一頁我在上一次4月17號有質詢過一個民生大家關注的議題行動電源起火國際案例頻傳影響非安"},{"start":10324.352,"end":10337.939,"text":"我以這個為例給你質詢找出問題希望你能夠延期你給我回了一個書面資料說我成立研究小組然後我會行文給要資料然後呢就這樣就沒了就沒了"},{"start":10341.414,"end":10355.01,"text":"就沒了你知道行動電源起火影響飛安甚至在高鐵上行動電源起火引起大家的恐慌這件事對人民的交通安全是多重要你有把人民的擔心放在心上嗎"},{"start":10363.39,"end":10382.114,"text":"沒有啊 你就給我一頁A4的報告而已啊 然後也沒寫進度啊我希望我可以看到進度行動電源為什麼起火 在飛機上起火又為什麼 那該怎麼辦在鐵道上面行動電源起火又該怎麼辦這個人民期待的是運安會可以給一個"},{"start":10390.526,"end":10395.362,"text":"解析專案研究找出問題給改善建議"},{"start":10397.348,"end":10424.801,"text":"讓人民安心啊這是我們認為你該更積極的部分嘛我再舉最後一個例子30秒你們自己運安會上面的網站上面就有所謂的這個志願調查系統裡面有國外的一個資訊我馬上上網去連結連結到是英國的運安的一個志願調查系統那他們呢這個"},{"start":10427.355,"end":10433.11,"text":"就在我的CIRAS這是從你們網站上去連結的喔你們有提供這個連結喔"},{"start":10435.339,"end":10461.054,"text":"那你們認為這個連結是我們這個運安會裡面也有一個運輸安全志願報告系統剛剛很多委員都提到那你們也給我一個國際連結英國也有這樣子的系統可是你看看人家英國怎麼做英國光是我只是出錢用數據因為我沒時間啦光是一個今年四月份就提出九件的結案報告"},{"start":10462.657,"end":10467.703,"text":"你知道在你們的運安會的運安志願報告系統裡面幾件嗎沒半件啦你們的報告內容還停到你們的公開資訊還在2024的8月2號啦還在去年的8月啦"},{"start":10485.1,"end":10498.325,"text":"人家英國你們自己連結的國際的一個運安的自願報告系統人家英國已經到2025的4月那光是4月就有9件還是結案的報告那我們自己運安會自己的運輸安全自願報告系統你一點進去還在去年的8月而且去年的8月就只有一件"},{"start":10516.75,"end":10535.996,"text":"我請那個組長來...不用啦我沒有時間啦這是我剛剛在我來質詢之前才上網去點進去的你們這樣子的效率你們這樣子的一個無感存在你想為什麼那麼多委員對你們那麼有意見提出那麼多的質疑"},{"start":10537.113,"end":10562.557,"text":"我跟你講喔 這個志願報告系統它不是多專業喔 對不起不能這樣講這個志願報告系統是任何只要跟運輸安全的從業人員跟乘客都可以提出進入這個志願報告系統所以從英國的那個CIS裡面我們看到不管是駕駛或者是他們的鐵道的管理員或者是他們的相關的從業人員都可以提出問題"},{"start":10566.638,"end":10574.039,"text":"那這個資源報告系統裡面他們就要回復回復就要立案立案就要有結案"},{"start":10577.827,"end":10600.424,"text":"那同樣的你們也是仿效國外英國的這個系統你們弄了一個資源報告系統那你們又是如何在處理有沒有效率有沒有結案有沒有給解答有沒有找出原因有沒有找解方這個其實是我們期待令安徽要跟國人報告要交代的啦好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":10603.76,"end":10619.838,"text":"主委可能特別要去注意一下 何新成委員提出這個問題專程到辦公室去說明一下好不好好 謝謝何新成委員游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在現在"},{"start":10623.114,"end":10633.09,"text":"好那個登記登記執行的委員經已發言完畢做以下的決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":10634.67,"end":10659.179,"text":"二 廖先祥委員 黃建豪委員 游浩委員 所提書面執行列入記錄並刊登公報委員對於執行中要求提供相關書面資料以及未及答覆部分請國家運輸安全調查委員會 盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":10662.196,"end":10667.06,"text":"好 接下來我們處理討論事項預算解凍案請議事人員宣讀討論事項處理國家運輸安全調查委員會函為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢証該會新增決議80業務費預算凍結30%書面報告案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":10686.206,"end":10712.192,"text":"好本案先讀完畢請問我們邱若驊委員何新淳委員有沒有什麼意見好沒有什麼意見做以下的結議討論事項同意動之提報宴會各位委員對於這些結議有沒有意見好沒有意見我們要通過以上的結議本次會議結束"},{"start":10714.333,"end":10719.329,"text":"特別謝謝祝大家明天端午快樂謝謝大家 散會"},{"start":10781.159,"end":10781.261,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"16721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16721","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685dd65533a85eaa9af58d85e2d08749d24a12e9ca99aa835c0024ba4758e5aa15a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。\n二、審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n三、\n（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】\n【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】\n【5月28日及29日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-29T08:30:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-29T17:23:00+08:00","duration":31933,"影片長度":"08:52:13","委員發言時間":"08:30:47 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用会讨论事项处理114年度中央政府总预算案有关行政院预算冻结案专案报告书面报告案及六案"},{"start":2131.424,"end":2153.303,"text":"討論事項和並尋答行政院秘書長公民信報告委員高金素梅等18人質詢由行政院秘書長公民信及相關人員行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員吳明修答覆說明登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢尋答結束委員王宏威所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":2155.265,"end":2170.053,"text":"決議討論事項依關乎議案並定期繼續審查其餘個案均同意動之擬據報告提報院會宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有好議事錄確定繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2174.088,"end":2181.037,"text":"1.审查委员邱志伟等16人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第9条及第91条条文修正草案2."},{"start":2181.037,"end":2187.124,"text":"审查委员王定宇等16人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第9条之3条文修正草案3."},{"start":2187.124,"end":2192.331,"text":"审查委员王美惠等17人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第9条之3第9条之4"},{"start":2192.901,"end":2213.617,"text":"及第九十一条条文修正查案四审查文林楚英等二十人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第九十条条文修正查案五审查文沈伯扬等二十人拟据香港澳门关系条例第十条条文修正查案六审查文张红露等二十人拟据香港澳门关系条例第十四条第十四条之一及第四十七条之一条文修正查案宣读完毕"},{"start":2215.842,"end":2239.73,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項合併詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員張志倫委員王美惠委員麥玉珍委員林儲英委員黃潔委員蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":2246.317,"end":2265.537,"text":"李坤哲委員沈伯陽委員我們陸委會的主任委員邱垂正主委請提案委員說明提案要旨我們先請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":2279.416,"end":2296.931,"text":"謝謝,我稍微做個提案說明因為我們國防外交今天考察,所以我等一下馬上過去我們這次提出來的修正草案其實很簡單港澳條例我們是希望它在旅行的部分到港澳的部分去跟兩岸條例做對齊"},{"start":2298.192,"end":2324.641,"text":"那為什麼會這個樣子是因為港澳目前尤其是國安法相關的規定它的危險程度它的風險程度其實跟中國基本上是一致的所以我們根據中國相關的一些管理措施跟風險的控管措施根據港澳的措施其實應該是要對齊所以提出這樣的一個港澳條例的修正但另外一個我覺得也是一個miss就是雖然這個在程序委員會通過之後今天被排案"},{"start":2325.141,"end":2346.924,"text":"但其實我們最主要想要修正的其實是兩岸條例我們兩岸條例對於民意代表尤其是立法委員去中國的這個部分我們認為是應該要做相對應的修正然後港澳條例再去跟這樣的一個修正對齊但因為我們的這一個兩岸條例的修正已經被國民黨跟民眾黨擋了422次所以他沒有辦法進來"},{"start":2347.705,"end":2373.832,"text":"那變成是我們港澳條例進來之後呢這個有點失去這個複利沒有辦法被好好的討論所以呢這個呢等到之後再進入主條的時候呢我們應該就會來提出這種再修正的這個動議讓我們這一個呢在程序委員會莫名其妙被擋下的能夠被這樣的討論那不然的話呢我們港澳條例放在這邊就沒有什麼實質的意義那最後呢還是再說明一下就是說呢這一個雖然他們在檔案都沒有什麼什麼很"},{"start":2374.992,"end":2403.39,"text":"很好的一個理由但是呢最常被講的就是立法權跟行政權之間的分界那我必須要講立法委員去中國根本就不是職權的行事去敵國通敵也不是職權的行事那不是職權的行事那怎麼會有立法權跟行政權的分界呢如果真的要按照這樣的邏輯下來的話那麼請問立法委員要不要報稅那如果今天跟國稅局報稅會不會說今天是國稅局財政部行政權在凌駕立法權"},{"start":2404.39,"end":2431.717,"text":"現在現行的條文請問司法院請問如果院長要去中國要不要去跟聯審會報備要那會不會因為這樣司法獨立就不具備了也不會所以這根本就是一個謬論這根本也不是一個檔案的理由更不要講說程序檔案只能根據比如說你到底有沒有寫修法理由有沒有15位委員的簽名用這樣的一個方式呢才是真正的在程序委員會要審查的重點而不是根據法條的內容"},{"start":2432.677,"end":2454.456,"text":"如果對法條的內容有異議,都應該進入委員會的討論所以再一次還是要譴責,就是兩岸條例被擋下422次這件事情結果在港澳條例他們漏檔了,所以才今天讓我可以在這邊來做提案說明但是很抱歉沒有辦法跟到最後,是因為我是國防外交的趙偉我們現在有這個考察,所以我現在必須要過去那我提案說明到這邊,謝謝"},{"start":2467.496,"end":2471.682,"text":"謝謝主席 各位同仁還有與會的官員 大家早安喔本席針對台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條建議將現行台灣人民擔任中共黨政軍職務之罰還上限由原本的新台幣五十萬提升到一百萬元"},{"start":2483.977,"end":2504.512,"text":"這是基於國安、縣市與經濟現實的雙重考量本席樂見在陸委會的回函當中同意本席的修法方向那麼提高法則額度以嚇阻、形塑、融合假象營造統戰樣板的事態本席呢也將在實質討論的時候提出修正動議來"},{"start":2506.772,"end":2518.187,"text":"提議暗刺處罰以有效避免類似的案情發生其實我們都知道中共對台灣的滲透是更加精緻而且具有系統性透過區隔對待拉同打異"},{"start":2521.772,"end":2537.102,"text":"首法来诱使台湾社会局部的进行软化除了对产业跟地方进行点对点的吸纳更刻意的透过统战名目向特定的台湾人士来授予全国政协委员"},{"start":2551.972,"end":2553.314,"text":"我們看到目前所裁定的罰金是在2003年的時候所制定了距離現在已經超過了20年當年我們平均的人均GDP是14000美元如今已經來到了32000美元"},{"start":2568.195,"end":2572.538,"text":"社會整體的經濟結構物價水平與政治風險環境都已經不一樣了在實務上陸委會其實近期也查到了確實是有台灣民眾來擔任中共全國政協委員人大代表甚至於產業中心執行長將的職位而這些職位所能調動的資源能量早已遠遠超於原條文所設計的想像"},{"start":2593.59,"end":2598.491,"text":"再者我們看到在立法院當中也有委員不顧國安風險公然的帶團附中這些與中共官員把手言歡的場面這些行為對台灣社會所發出的錯誤訊息彷彿是向中國遞出了投名狀所以對於本席現在所制定的條文希望在實質討論的時候能夠獲得在場所有朝野委員的支持我想這對於台灣來說"},{"start":2623.436,"end":2630.844,"text":"只有立下這樣的一個案本案才能夠從制度面正本清源謝謝好謝謝那我們現在請陸委會邱主委報告請簡短"},{"start":2652.228,"end":2666.367,"text":"謝謝主席承蒙貴委員會的邀請這個針對貴委會審查兩岸條例以及港澳條例的修法草案我們進行相關的報告那麼請大家指教"},{"start":2668.291,"end":2696.35,"text":"第一中共長期對我統戰滲透那麼本會正依總統指示全面檢視研修相關的法令那麼長久以來中共對台統戰滲透無所不用其極嚴重威脅我們國家安全與社會安定那麼在今年3月13號提出的五大國安及統戰威脅以及17項的因應策略以清楚指出為了因應中共對我統戰滲透"},{"start":2698.671,"end":2724.668,"text":"中央跟地方各級公職人員赴中國大陸交流的揭露制度兩岸交流要避免受到陸方政治統戰滲透干預所衍生的國安風險等所以各機關應全面檢視相關的法令必要時提出相關的法規修正案來進速落實同時我們也依總統指示會同相關機關盤點現行規定"},{"start":2727.23,"end":2755.538,"text":"研議推動相關的修法工作這次新建我們大院有許多委員提出相關的修正案進行審議討論就委員所提出的兩岸條例的規定我想絕大部分都是來強化我們國家安全及維護我們國家安全利益與尊嚴目的都是強化民主防衛合作的努力這些跟本會的立場是一致的"},{"start":2756.198,"end":2772.476,"text":"那本會也支持相關的修法的方向那包括第一案有關於邱志偉委員所提的案子這個台灣人民負辱不得負荷"},{"start":2773.297,"end":2799.756,"text":"配合中共党政军等发表危害我国存在或变更自由民主宪政秩序的内容的部分为了避免中共利用台湾民众发表矮化我主权等正义言行混淆我国家认同遂行其侵略并吞台湾的政治企图本提案有助于维护我国国家主权与尊严本会予以支持"},{"start":2800.496,"end":2818.495,"text":"我們也感謝委員的用心但是對於涉及人民言論及表意範疇的限制考慮相關的文字屬於不確定的法律概念為顧及整體民眾的基本權益的保護使民眾得以預先預見相關的規範內容"},{"start":2821.118,"end":2828.64,"text":"以及我們行政機關得以認定及執行以及司法審查得以確認所以相關的規範的文字我們在討論可以進一步來研議不過我們肯定委員的努力"},{"start":2836.863,"end":2854.086,"text":"第二有關於王定宇委員等提案的部分考慮承認相關職務的人員均具有指標性的意義倘若配合中共發表相關的統戰言論對於我們社會民心可能產生高度的不利影響"},{"start":2854.847,"end":2875.398,"text":"所以相關的行為確有立法禁止之必要我們也感謝委員的用心因為相關涉及相關人員的言論及表意範疇的限制所以我們也是建議這個法案在討論時可以進一步就文字上來進一步研議"},{"start":2877.162,"end":2902.901,"text":"那第三案是王美惠等委員的提案那麼最主要也是擴大規範的主體及增加規範行為樣態不得公然發表我國非主權獨立國家而是其他國家之一部且因以武力達成這部分之內容本會也表達贊同兩案條例第九條"},{"start":2904.222,"end":2918.317,"text":"諮商規範的主體範圍因適度擴大以符合整體社會的期待與規範的需求但是也鑒於本條例對於承認具有指標性意義職務之人員的規範"},{"start":2920.579,"end":2947.958,"text":"不宜过度宽泛以符合比例原则所以我们也建议在法案进一步讨论的时候来研议以寻求共识那就增加规范行为样态的部分我们也是一样因为涉及相关人员言论及表意的范畴我们来进一步来跟委员的情谊来凝聚社会共识"},{"start":2948.658,"end":2964.242,"text":"那有關於剛剛林委員所報告的部分來考量中共加大對於我們促龍統戰以及用我國人擔任中國大陸相關的職務黨政軍的職務以營造統戰樣板"},{"start":2969.932,"end":2986.097,"text":"所以提請提高裁罰額度有助於嚇阻相關情勢那本會呢非常支持這個修法方向同時呢我們也建議剛剛委員也提到了可以並入按次處罰連續罰以更加有效來嚇阻相關的類似的情形來發生那就"},{"start":2993.74,"end":3015.569,"text":"港澳條例的部分有關第五案剛剛省委員的提案我們都完全的支持對於委員提案修法通過後對於公務員或具有特定身份人員赴港澳適用兩條例加強管理至於一般人赴港澳則與現行的規定一致"},{"start":3016.249,"end":3038.211,"text":"也是與本會的政策方向相符合那目前港澳的部分現期公務人員是以行政院及所屬各機關人員赴港澳的注意事項作為控管機制我們針對這個部分也在強化它的機制的完整性那地方政府可以比照來因應"},{"start":3039.292,"end":3056.12,"text":"那對於因應港澳的這個情勢的發展為了防範中共借港澳人員資金等對我進行滲透政府也強化了港澳居民申請入境居留定居投資等各項審查把關也會持續密鑄情勢的發展"},{"start":3059.361,"end":3087.981,"text":"一旦偵測有危害國家安全或損及國人權益之餘人會持續檢討法規並依法啟動應變措施以確保國家安全與社會安定對於第二案我們張委員等人提出有關於港澳條例第14條第14條之一及47條之一港澳居民受強制出境處分的委任律師"},{"start":3088.861,"end":3102.894,"text":"及同意在場天然災害疫情等不可抗力因素至無法強制促進增訂延長與再延長收容的室遊配合移民法修正增訂或提高罰則的部分"},{"start":3103.835,"end":3123.82,"text":"考量未符合人身自由制度保障的安全那麼入出國移民法已經配合我們這個法規是配合入出國移民法的條文來修正為橫屏境外人士的人流管理程序罰則相關的措施那麼"},{"start":3124.78,"end":3152.212,"text":"港澳條例需要參照配套修正那麼本會以前併這個擬具兩案條例還有港澳條例正由行政院審查當中但是就今天的立場本會支持立委相關的提案那麼配合我們移民署正在提出來的提審法再次研議這個入出國移民法的修正條文"},{"start":3153.172,"end":3171.421,"text":"也會連動它收容的天數等等所以港澳條例及兩岸條例相關條文的修正即使本次完成修正也不排除可能要配合移民法的再次修正不管怎麼樣我們今天都配合大宴的最後的決定"},{"start":3172.401,"end":3189.929,"text":"那麼最後結語面對中共近年來的加大文攻武嚇經濟脅迫及灰色地帶侵擾等複合性的壓迫並持續遂行統戰滲透及干預作為本會將循政府政策方向協同相關機關持續滾動檢討兩岸事務相關法令採取積極必要的"},{"start":3196.79,"end":3203.175,"text":"應處及防範措施以維護國家安全社會安定民眾的福祉"},{"start":3204.52,"end":3230.746,"text":"我們也持續密注港澳情勢的變化適時推動港澳條例修法工作本會也會持續依照總統指示相關推動修法研議的工作希望行政跟立法共同強化我國家安全相關法制以有效遏阻相關不法行為以維護我國家安全與社會安定以及民眾福祉以上報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":3238.271,"end":3265.64,"text":"好其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那我們先各位委員我們現在進行詢答委員執行權原例座以下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間5加1分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天處理法案本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見好沒有好現在進行詢答請登記地位的舒巧會委員"},{"start":3274.755,"end":3277.117,"text":"主委好 主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家 同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然 這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方"},{"start":3293.953,"end":3316.059,"text":"但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧"},{"start":3318.061,"end":3340.721,"text":"是的我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式"},{"start":3342.663,"end":3357.355,"text":"來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛"},{"start":3361.078,"end":3386.02,"text":"好 那如果是這樣子的話 那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你 來 第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論 這有觸法嗎"},{"start":3388.117,"end":3390.979,"text":"我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有處罰那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有處罰嗎"},{"start":3405.455,"end":3410.576,"text":"我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的踪跡沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一他必須要看個案因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國"},{"start":3435.003,"end":3441.51,"text":"中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這一段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題"},{"start":3456.448,"end":3461.052,"text":"我想他會引發國人的不滿 檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛 對不對好 所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦"},{"start":3480.126,"end":3488.452,"text":"第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣"},{"start":3501.761,"end":3506.366,"text":"拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法"},{"start":3526.505,"end":3534.57,"text":"另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後"},{"start":3542.856,"end":3562.87,"text":"是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分"},{"start":3570.976,"end":3594.671,"text":"他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷"},{"start":3600.58,"end":3624.411,"text":"是 謝謝委員就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為"},{"start":3625.211,"end":3634.58,"text":"我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為"},{"start":3646.832,"end":3651.855,"text":"主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由"},{"start":3676.507,"end":3691.284,"text":"種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為嘛就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好"},{"start":3698.251,"end":3702.837,"text":"台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛"},{"start":3715.371,"end":3743.725,"text":"這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準"},{"start":3745.215,"end":3750.7,"text":"謝謝委員 我也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場 謝謝好 謝謝好 我們請蔓郁貞委員主席好 請主委好 請主委蔓郁貞好"},{"start":3774.707,"end":3798.137,"text":"主委好 想要譬如說行政機關確認立法原則是否符合憲法的保障這人身自由 遷途自由和國會自律的原則我們沈伯陽委員先前曾經提出針對立委參與秘密會議人員"},{"start":3801.198,"end":3820.119,"text":"附中需申請於審查會審查請問我們的內政部還有我們的法務部及大陸委員會是否已經評估該提案是否可能違法憲法第十條"},{"start":3821.78,"end":3846.497,"text":"遷徒自由第23條的比例原則若有立委要摘以事前許可的制度也是否等同對人民或者民意代表行使憲政職能的過度干預呢所以這個部分是哪一位可以回應我"},{"start":3847.566,"end":3865.566,"text":"謝謝委員的關切其實我們就是按照現行條文我們第九條第四項也明確就是涉及到這個各個單位的涉密人員那其實我們陸委會都有要求"},{"start":3867.508,"end":3890.768,"text":"五院都要提出各個政府機關單位只要有涉及國家機密的人要覆錄都要提個名單讓我們來做審查那我們很遺憾現在只剩下立法院沒有提出來其他四院都有提出涉密人員到我們移民署來做這個覆錄的審查"},{"start":3892.569,"end":3912.363,"text":"那我們也多次跟大院來要求 甚至大院用法律明確化原則其實我們在法律上面就有明確的條文要求如果涉及到國家機密 依法都要送相關的主管機關來做附錄的審查"},{"start":3915.245,"end":3936.556,"text":"那所以剛剛省委員說也呼籲立法院能夠提案那他這個沒有違法的是符合我們現在兩岸條例現行條文未來我們修法可以更加的明確化有法律依據這是我們未來努力的方向"},{"start":3937.159,"end":3938.52,"text":"但是檢視我們省委員之前提的案是否違背行政與立法權的分立原則以及是否行使行政審查侵害立法權自律的"},{"start":3960.739,"end":3975.633,"text":"所以立法院屬於國會依我們中華民國憲法第62條的規定立法院有益正於監督行政之職者如果立委附中"},{"start":3976.454,"end":4002.816,"text":"需进行政机关的组织的审查会审查许可是否违反宪法之上的行政不干预国会的原则而台湾民众党主张立法院与地方议会各自为政分权自治所以包庇于通报是由"},{"start":4004.164,"end":4014.786,"text":"各院自行就是定定所以是否更符合就是我们的宪政的架构这个就是我们的主张"},{"start":4015.865,"end":4037.203,"text":"我想維護國家安全不僅是人人有責況且是我們這些軍公教人員更是要配合但是不應該有像我們法官附路也是要進行這方面的審查那不應該以願績來規避畢竟我們"},{"start":4041.948,"end":4056.887,"text":"在法條上就是非常清楚就是說國防外交情報大陸事務或其他相關機關從事涉及國家安全利益機密業務的人員其他相關機關也包括"},{"start":4059.089,"end":4083.858,"text":"現在我們講的就是我們的立法權所以我們比較強制的就是說許可審查制與報備通報制在風險反控制憲政原則之間的平衡性最後我想要請教我們大陸委員會與內政部對於立委"},{"start":4084.858,"end":4093.419,"text":"俘虏之火可能涉及国安的风险所以台湾民众党要求立委行前报备"},{"start":4095.02,"end":4116.912,"text":"行后通报而且是立法院制定的执行的细则是否就是具备行政监督所欲达成之透明性与风险管控的目标所以在无涉及具体危害就是你说的就是情之前是否以报备就是制度取代事前的审查更符合"},{"start":4123.415,"end":4127.199,"text":"比例原則啦這個就是我們大家在講的但是剛才我們為什麼說我們要擋那個沈伯源的他就是一直在強調的是說敵國敵國但是呢我們所有的立委都希望兩岸和平所以呢我們是希望你覺得是希望兩岸和平還是強調敵國"},{"start":4150.339,"end":4160.292,"text":"附入做必要的申請審查跟兩岸和平無關我們希望這是說你比如說我們的政官指甲師市長縣市長還有群體的分立這個都是依法"},{"start":4166.96,"end":4173.847,"text":"都要來申請審查許可才能附入我們也希望立法院立法委員都能夠配合這個政策我是想要問你說我們是不是希望兩岸和平我們希望兩岸和平但是兩岸和平跟附入審查是兩回事"},{"start":4186.298,"end":4212.093,"text":"對我們審查的兩回事但是因為我看到其他立委是講這樣子我才要問你的嘛所以中商就是三個階段的分析啦民進黨版先前提的雖然有國安的初衷但可能落入就是違憲的餘力所以包含違反就是憲法的保障制遷途自由於"},{"start":4214.718,"end":4218.221,"text":"議會自立的原則反觀我們台灣民眾黨的主張以分權自立的原則"},{"start":4232.797,"end":4251.072,"text":"建構包庇的制度尊重各權力機關自主定定的內規符合憲政的分工還有比例原則與資訊透明的要求這是一項更可行且符合法治國家的原則制度設計應得"},{"start":4258.337,"end":4265.242,"text":"應獲得委員會優先的討論這個就是我們的主張所以我們希望就是我們是促進兩岸和平不要就一直在就是別人說武統我們覺得是不對的但是我們也不要一直在去對立我們希望兩岸和平為我們的目標"},{"start":4283.573,"end":4302.452,"text":"是謝謝委員 委員我們還是要說我們尊重國會自治但是國會自治也不應該超越國家安全謝謝我們都不會超越剛才我們就說我們的國安為優先還有兩岸和平為目標是這個就是我們的主張 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝好 請李博弈委員"},{"start":4318.246,"end":4342.567,"text":"辛苦齁 有請邱主委好 請邱主委議員好趁民眾黨麥玉珍委員還沒走 容我提醒他齁剛剛的主張 其實台灣民眾黨在程序委員會的時候可以不用跟著國民黨一起在阻擋民進黨提的國安法案到這週一共422次 你們聽到"},{"start":4348.985,"end":4374.113,"text":"對不起有點激動其實立法委員的職責職權其實在他剛剛所唸的主張裡面其實在每一個禮拜的程序委員會他民眾黨都可以表達剛剛他們認為事前報備事後報備等等的主張讓程序委員會通過之後順利進到立法院的議事程序來審議來討論到底"},{"start":4376.818,"end":4397.823,"text":"這幾個條例裡面包含兩岸人民關係條例強化特定人士赴中申報管理港澳條例強化特定人士赴港申報管理以及立法委員行違法他對這個敵對勢力有意見他對敵對勢力的定義就是說隔壁有一個國家"},{"start":4398.403,"end":4420.08,"text":"每天派幾十架軍機飛越你的領空在你的領空周圍這樣繞來繞去甚至派軍艦甚至派他們的海警在我們的這個不管是澎湖、金門、馬祖甚至台海這些領域裡面這樣繞來繞去他不認為這是敵對勢力我覺得這個可以在立法院裡面討論他說因為敵對勢力所以有意見要退回"},{"start":4427.305,"end":4452.026,"text":"我們在這邊今天其實感謝張路昭委安排這個議程就是針對這幾個國安法令來提出來那我想針對這幾個法令目前提出來的包含第九條如果這個沒有修我請問一下陸委會我們知道現在每週或者是每個月有多少退降"},{"start":4452.858,"end":4461.324,"text":"他其實是領著退休金在中國自住行自由旅行我們有辦法統計嗎"},{"start":4463.855,"end":4483.132,"text":"因為他們是如果說以退休的退降基本上是一般國民賦入不需要跟政府來因為他如果已經過了退職期的審核期間他就可以自由進出中國大陸"},{"start":4483.992,"end":4505.923,"text":"對,那所以今天包含這個第九條第三跟第九條之三還有第二項的修法裡面就是我們希望把它規範到如果它在,它當然是沒有報備嘛但它如果它配合大陸地區具有統戰目的的行為的政治宣傳行為這個我們其實就要規範它,也就是說"},{"start":4508.615,"end":4534.475,"text":"如果你還是領著退休金嘛那你還是去中國旅遊嘛但是你有參加他的活動這個活動你當到退休將領了你當然知道這個是要統戰喔那你被拍出來就是做樣板喔那你能不能參加這個活動如果你參加這個活動在那邊聽訊聽著習大大的聽訊或者甚至跟他們唱他們的國歌等等的這一些我們是不是應該要規範"},{"start":4535.72,"end":4559.834,"text":"是當然所以我們支持委員的提案那包括這些特定的指標性人物不管是退將還是過去處理國安相關的這些退離職人員他們賦錄他們的言行更會影響這個兩岸的視聽如果是附和或是"},{"start":4561.215,"end":4589.452,"text":"完全講中國大陸對台的統戰的話的話當然會影響我們民心士氣所以這個地方的強化規管這個立法方針跟政策方向我們是支持的對所以我們要透過這個立法讓有一些人他其實他可能習慣長期習慣真的是在中國旅遊啊那在中國旅遊裡面比如說我10天到底有幾天是接受他們的哪一些單位"},{"start":4591.004,"end":4616.224,"text":"落地接待甚至有什麼餐飲食宿的招待甚至有更多的這些高規格的這些接待的我們要不要規範我們要啊這個我們可以去這個他原來服務的機關跟他們做這方面的勸導不過我們法律是針對一些特定行為比如說我們現行的法律對於這些退將去參加中國大陸黨政軍所舉辦的各種的"},{"start":4620.507,"end":4637.234,"text":"典禮對於他的旗揮歌行李唱誦那有這個行為我們就會採取依法來處分對嘛你至少避一下嘛身為創華民國的退役將領這些退役將領的定義我們再把它更清楚一點"},{"start":4638.354,"end":4652.574,"text":"包含承認國防外交大陸事務以及國家安全相關機關國家安全相關機關其實也包含貴單位陸委會那可能也包含調查局算不算"},{"start":4653.719,"end":4668.539,"text":"未來都會被納入是的 算這些我這樣講其實都是中共高度想要滲透台灣國安相關單位的一些重要的這些單位而這一些退役人士"},{"start":4669.259,"end":4697.563,"text":"對於這些中共的這些人的價值就是他們了解台灣的國安情治系統如何運作如同我們的立法委員了解台灣的民主憲政如何維持也是中共很想要滲透的目標所以我們也支持立法委員赴中赴港必須要深最少不是法律而已最少要讓你的選民知道你去了中國見了誰你安排什麼行程合理吧"},{"start":4698.26,"end":4727.649,"text":"是委員剛剛說什麼這個電話局局長是不是所有的情報機關的首長包括現行法律是這樣那我們也支持把這些第九條之三的範圍把它擴大適用人更多以來確保他們的這個相關的行為符合國人的期待中共每天都在想著怎麼滲透啦所以我們法律要明定清楚保護我們所有國人的安全"},{"start":4728.269,"end":4753.724,"text":"是 我們也是朝這個方向來修法 謝謝委員好 我們請張志倫委員好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請邱水正 邱主委好 請主委"},{"start":4756.755,"end":4773.384,"text":"三位好好主委好今天是討論有關於這個兩岸關係條例的相關修法那當然是說有要討論說有關於要把這個適用範圍擴大及提高罰款以及如果這些退休將領或是工人"},{"start":4773.924,"end":4794.654,"text":"有去擔任中共黨職的部分也是一併要處以罰款以及未來可能附港會等於附中這樣的概念來進行討論跟修法那本席也樂見這樣子的一些討論不過我要先請教主委的一個部分就是說在最近監察院的調查報告有指出來在過去十年有318位的文職公務人員違法"},{"start":4798.456,"end":4823.748,"text":"或違規前往中國大陸包含55位的高階官、文官跟263位的基層的人員另外也有165件的警察人員的違規的案例那是因為警政署定期的清查而揭露那這樣子的顯示尤其在監察院的報告裡有顯示實際違規的人數可能更多代表就是說黑數可能比揭露的還更多"},{"start":4824.648,"end":4851.417,"text":"那其實事實上在行政院其實在103年的時候就有召開會議就是有規定各機關附中應該要有抽查的制度那現在已經10年過去了除了警政署跟陸委會以外其他的這個各個機關其實沒有普遍的在執行這樣的動作所以我必須要說我們有相關的法令可是附中調查整個的機制我認為是有完全虛設這個而且機制完全失靈的一個狀況"},{"start":4852.617,"end":4875.262,"text":"那我想要請教主委因為你本身在入委會也非常長的一段時間所以我相信這個你也有一定的責任那我請教說為什麼這樣的機制在監察院的報告裡面有明確指出其實現在機制是沒有辦法實行的那為什麼只有警政署跟入委會在實行是不是可以請主委回答一下"},{"start":4875.967,"end":4897.649,"text":"好 謝謝委員關鍵這個議題 我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假"},{"start":4900.231,"end":4920.1,"text":"那在11值等以上的 那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯 一個是依照法令嘛 內政部許可 一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委 為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令 可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法 把範圍再更擴大"},{"start":4920.62,"end":4935.293,"text":"可是如果執行上不利的話 那修法的目的在哪裡是 謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法 可是你要如何執行過去它只有一個機制 有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個"},{"start":4937.915,"end":4960.607,"text":"實質等以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制那所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法"},{"start":4961.267,"end":4976.536,"text":"這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法律沒有法律的就是十一職等以上有法律十一職等以下是內規所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示"},{"start":4979.318,"end":4997.781,"text":"大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們所以你們現在有內部已經有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是"},{"start":4999.763,"end":5016.081,"text":"過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同"},{"start":5018.543,"end":5033.261,"text":"在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務員員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰"},{"start":5034.842,"end":5042.309,"text":"只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰"},{"start":5052.938,"end":5077.939,"text":"那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢的老師精神要記過處罰這樣的雙重標準是 謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等"},{"start":5078.539,"end":5100.234,"text":"所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會 因為我們立法之後啊為什麼 因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過"},{"start":5102.415,"end":5121.041,"text":"跟委員報告現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求啦如果是一般的對 照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準嘛是不是要改善這個我們會努力好 謝謝"},{"start":5123.468,"end":5149.978,"text":"所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分"},{"start":5150.518,"end":5168.31,"text":"那現在我們在討論修法 公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動 陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話 你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下"},{"start":5169.25,"end":5185.16,"text":"是 如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好"},{"start":5185.7,"end":5203.494,"text":"就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們要不要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們"},{"start":5204.759,"end":5205.079,"text":"會不會取得有困難"},{"start":5224.818,"end":5245.469,"text":"應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們要知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行"},{"start":5246.209,"end":5263.311,"text":"那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多幾頁問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請"},{"start":5264.793,"end":5286.378,"text":"跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題 謝謝"},{"start":5288.019,"end":5308.395,"text":"謝謝張委員包括你講那個未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對 謝謝這個我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那對進行必要的查處"},{"start":5311.918,"end":5334.732,"text":"那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為"},{"start":5335.552,"end":5355.356,"text":"但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好 主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝 謝謝張委員謝謝好 請王美惠委員"},{"start":5369.116,"end":5388.608,"text":"主席 大家 主委主委你要先喝一個茶嗎先喝一杯謝謝王委員 謝謝先說 主委我們是要延續我們前董事長跟你們說藝人的問題是因為我覺得外面有覺得說你們中央移民署要打壓藝人"},{"start":5396.986,"end":5403.529,"text":"藝人啊 因為我覺得藝人一看錢是天經地義的事情啊尤其在台灣的人 到中國的時候 他要唱歌 他要表演"},{"start":5412.073,"end":5414.895,"text":"我們都沒有反對,有時候,難道在他的規定當中,他的傳播的問題當中,有損害到中華民國的台灣?這就很嚴重了,不是說你在抵押什麼藝人不可以去對,你看很多藝人,是怎麼偏偏有這幾個人,都在說中華民國的不是,"},{"start":5440.999,"end":5442.7,"text":"所以在這個過程當中,有的人說,你們想過後一天,要讓中華民國的新聞局的國籍出銷掉讓大家覺得說,有這麼嚴重嗎?"},{"start":5459.585,"end":5461.227,"text":"那是非常嚴重,像本身提出這個案件時,在一兩星期前,去到宴會時,讓國民黨擁護他之後,這個案件就沒了,不然我認為這對中華民國的台灣,非常重要這個案"},{"start":5483.365,"end":5489.549,"text":"所以我又再次鼓勵,也感謝我們的張宏祿召委派這個給大家,可以透露,可以擔任來保護我們中華民國的國安、人民條例,可以更加健全所以在這裡面,我看到說,如果你們認真做,再說你們的檔案"},{"start":5512.91,"end":5513.931,"text":"藝界的人,我也覺得很難過,藝界的人,有時候真的很不愛中華民國的台灣,說到他很逞強的,我是中國人,那是非常不應該的"},{"start":5530.672,"end":5533.915,"text":"所以主委,在這裏面剛才你報告說,本省會提案,你要認同要認同當中,我到現在沒看到你們的行政院,你們的案,可以去參考說,怎樣才好"},{"start":5552.625,"end":5554.125,"text":"這是非常嚴重,你看剛才我們的國民黨的委員也說這也同意,也高興國民黨受到保護,還有這樣的問題他們知道這麼嚴重,所以本身剛才剛才說到現在"},{"start":5572.091,"end":5575.473,"text":"您是有什麼要補充嗎?來請主委講講也包括我們好多的提案也包括我們草野的委員都支持這方面的修法就我們行政院的版本我們是在積極的在研議不過因為它還在行政程序目前還不方便對外說明不過我想很快"},{"start":5596.027,"end":5618.481,"text":"就會來跟委員報告我們行政院版本不過委員剛剛說到我們絕對不是對藝人有歧視或懲罰絕對沒有這回事我們完全是依法那麼也對於我們有些藝人可能受到中共的這些政治脅迫逼他們做政治表態"},{"start":5619.602,"end":5627.312,"text":"所以我們也在了解這是不是他講出消滅我們國家主權地位或者是附和他們"},{"start":5629.026,"end":5646.695,"text":"軍演的這些威嚇的這些圖卡在短短的時間一起這麼做我想不是自發行為沒有人會相信這是自發行為而是合作的行為當然我們還是要經過查處我們是一個民主法治國家一定要有一個查處的過程我們會在查處的過程"},{"start":5649.676,"end":5671.075,"text":"除了從管理面去了解真相之外另外我們也會關懷他們在中國大陸是不是有很多的政治脅迫一定要講這些話才能生存如果他真的在中國大陸生存不易的話他應該可能考慮回來台灣發展我們的文化部也有很多的計畫所以我們對"},{"start":5673.757,"end":5677.218,"text":"藝人並不是說去打壓藝人這個政府沒有打壓藝人我們關懷他是他做得不好不愛這個國家所演繹的在這裡主委本身要跟你說的就是說你剛才的解說也很清楚你不是在打壓這裡的藝人因為在這個過程當中我們今天可以大家討論這裡的條款說實在很簡單在程序委員會裡面"},{"start":5703.524,"end":5707.288,"text":"我們已經放棄四百二十年了所以這是非常關鍵、要緊的事情所以你說 不可以說跟我們的國監來處理這個國監我們腳步一定不會裁判的所以說本身跟你提起這個"},{"start":5724.364,"end":5726.145,"text":"實質黨家要去到大陸 中國的時候要報備 要有你們的思考的心我認為這是最重要的因為女國家的錢 女國家的體育金是如何要報備不然她們要報備 她的體育金不要拿去中國拿啊你要中華民國的體育金"},{"start":5750.623,"end":5752.704,"text":"我現在在美國的心碎的公告令完沒有人這樣啦所以主委本席有提案的時候在這個時候為了國家的安全為了國家的好尤其我們要保護民主自由的國家你們要認真去看這個條款以上"},{"start":5773.246,"end":5784.576,"text":"對於軍公教人員對國家有忠誠義務我們都會加強來管理也透過立法來修正好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝好請環節委員好謝謝主席我們請主委好請主委"},{"start":5797.609,"end":5812.916,"text":"黃委員好好今天在這邊我其實非常的遺憾因為今天我們審查這個兩岸條例跟港澳條例沒有我的版本為什麼沒有我的版本我本來很期待今天可以來提案說明因為我針對兩岸條例提出了四個版本以上的修法但是沒有一條可以送進委員會"},{"start":5818.539,"end":5827.903,"text":"因為全部都被藍白附議了全部都被藍白在程序委員會就擋掉了我提了什麼光是這個立委附中我們很多立委都有提版本但在程序委員會就被擋了422次啊所以剛剛民眾黨的麥玉珍委員還在說什麼他們也要提一個許可制的版本在此之前先不要擋別人的版本吧不要在這邊打假球吧"},{"start":5845.49,"end":5849.614,"text":"真的有心要捍衛國安來這裡討論嘛來這裡討論嘛到現在連我的版本都送不進來所以我在這邊也是覺得很遺憾啊我提了除了這個立委附中之外我還有提這個如果是雙重國籍要任公職的話解職應該要繳還薪資的這個條例就是針對當初南投的這個石雪燕議員像這樣子中國籍的台灣議員"},{"start":5870.031,"end":5893.629,"text":"那這種如果已經被解職了是不是應該要繳還薪資那甚至是如果中港澳的人士如果入籍台灣之後他想要參選台灣的公職甚至是參選台灣的立委的話應該要附上他的放棄國籍的證明才行我認為這個都是基本的程序啊其他的外籍人士來台灣參選公職都是照這樣的程序中國籍更應該要這樣做啊結果被擋掉了被擋掉了"},{"start":5897.432,"end":5899.614,"text":"那甚至說這個吳斯懷條款就更不用說了我提的是什麼應該要加大範圍包括說如果你退休的少將退休的上將要帶一堆退休的這種少將上將去中國可不可以當然是不行嘛因為現在就看起來有包括什麼海軍的退役少將"},{"start":5916.77,"end":5939.728,"text":"还有前立委罗志明等等涉嫌引戒高达48位退将赴中然后替中共来行这个收集情收还有行统战之实这个都是目前都还在调查当中嘛那还有包括说这个退役的上将夏英洲到中国之后在中国的论坛说今后不要分国军共军我们都是中国军"},{"start":5940.228,"end":5966.87,"text":"後來他還接受環球時報的訪問說解放軍的戰機出現在台灣島的上空是在自己的國土上有權去巡邏這個都是台灣的退役的這些將領上將到少將在中國講的話難道這些不用去管嗎不用去規範嗎結果全部都被藍白在程序委員會擋掉了我真的覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":5967.952,"end":5974.846,"text":"今天在這邊審這個兩岸條例如果大家都有共識覺得國安很重要的話就應該要把這些條例放進來啊"},{"start":5976.718,"end":5991.389,"text":"好那因為沒有我的版本所以我在這邊除了說呼籲把我自己的版本講給大家聽希望大家都能認同之外我再來問一下最近發生的事情喔前兩天被稱為習近平國師的這個復旦大學的教授張維為他說台灣的年輕人因為喜歡小紅書所以如果統一之後治理台灣會比香港容易"},{"start":6001.957,"end":6003.159,"text":"我不知道主委聽到這句話對於像小紅書這樣子的社群平台有什麼看法"},{"start":6008.468,"end":6036.349,"text":"我想這也是第一次中國大陸有學者把這類的中國大陸在台灣非常流行的這個APP跟統一把它掛勾在一起把它聯繫起來那如果是這樣的話這些包括抖音 包括小紅書是不是也是在落實對台的這個統一也是為了統一在做準備那這樣的情況下"},{"start":6036.849,"end":6061.899,"text":"我想我們使用這些小紅書或者是抖音這些中國大陸這些非常著名的這些好用的軟體恐怕都要提高警覺至少我們也呼籲各級學校應該對於使用這類的APP應該要有一個試讀方面的提醒跟教育的推廣知道使用這個"},{"start":6062.799,"end":6067.062,"text":"會對有什麼樣的一種問題存在比如說包括對於你個資的影響容易個資被對岸利用之外他也在置入很多的統一的這些在你們的定義裡小紅書這樣子的社群平台是統戰工具嗎"},{"start":6084.321,"end":6100.099,"text":"我們一直有這個高度的懷疑啦但是我們也希望我們趕快有一個網路主管機關可以去調查去清理這些很多國人的疑問我們發現太多這個涉及"},{"start":6101.941,"end":6118.28,"text":"統一的聲音或者是武統的聲音還有毀棄我們中華民國主權地位的聲音甚至要毀損我們作為自由民主憲政國家的好多聲音都在這裡面"},{"start":6119.221,"end":6135.824,"text":"好謝謝主委主委講的比較保守啦其實很多的研究中都已經非常明確的定義類似像小紅書抖音這樣的平台對於中共來說很明顯就已經是一個統戰的利器了嘛他就是一個統戰的工具了嘛甚至現在都這個張維為也說了因為台灣的年輕人喜歡小紅書所以統一台灣之後比香港還容易治理耶"},{"start":6144.566,"end":6153.031,"text":"這件事情這樣子明確的講出來難道不用預防嗎這絕對要我們高度警惕沒錯所以我這邊希望陸委會針對這樣的社群平台上面都在流竄什麼訊息然後針對哪一些群體喜歡使用這樣的平台會不會受到這個資訊戰認知作戰的侵擾這個你們都應該要去加強的了解而不是在這邊說高度懷疑"},{"start":6171.382,"end":6194.752,"text":"這種時候還在高度懷疑會不會有點太慢了是了解我們跟相關主管機關一直在討論這個問題那我想進一步的從法治面去歸管它已經到達非常至少做到揭露嘛是相關的該揭露的至少要揭露嘛給大家警惕這個是必要的好嗎是了解好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6199.295,"end":6201.457,"text":"好 我們請高津市委員謝謝主席有請我們的邱主委好 請主委高津委員好"},{"start":6223.157,"end":6246.007,"text":"今年的3月13號賴清德總統他宣布說中國是境外敵對勢力之後的這兩個月當中呢國安法的修法被提出來了那今天呢港澳關係條例還有兩岸人民關係條例的修法也提出來了從民進黨立法委員們所提出來的修法版本裡面我們可以看到一種"},{"start":6247.284,"end":6274.049,"text":"以國家安全為名然後把法條徵修的越來越嚴罰款越來越高管制的人員還有範圍也越來越寬看來呢民進黨你們是要把14億人口的中國都定義成境外敵對勢力而並不是為了對付敵人而是為了那個把"},{"start":6275.461,"end":6297.637,"text":"我們的政治思考和民進黨政府不同的台灣人民變成敵人變成通敵的中共同路人那麼今天我們在內政委員會裡面要討論修法行政院和上一次我們在這邊審的國安法的時候他一直都沒有提出版本"},{"start":6299.434,"end":6307.17,"text":"既然周主委你說這是賴總統他的指示你們新政院是不是應該有版本請問一下陸委會有沒有版本"},{"start":6308.247,"end":6331.033,"text":"跟委員報告有關於落實17項的因應策略修法也是一個我們強化法制作業重要的一個環節為什麼行政院跟相關部門一直都沒有版本都是立法委員的版本請你回答我們是跟委員報告我們現在還在整個作業當中所以行政院跟你會提出版本囉會"},{"start":6332.173,"end":6351.849,"text":"我們會提出兩岸條例的版本你對於現在民進黨立委所提出來的修法版本你有什麼看法我想他們都是在強化民主防衛機制目的還是希望能夠守護我們在台灣自由民主的生活方式"},{"start":6353.029,"end":6373.207,"text":"那有关于他们提出这些其实跟我们的立场态度是为了这个减少在受到因为跟中国大陆交流所引发这个统战渗透分化的影响我以为你是国安局你是陆委会好了既然你这么讲那我就请问你"},{"start":6374.007,"end":6395.536,"text":"這次有關兩岸人民關係條例的修法版本裡面邱志偉委員的版本他修了第九條的第十項他在台灣地區人民進入大陸地區者不得從事妨害國家安全或利益的活動的這個條文後面增加了亦不得配合複合大陸地區的黨務軍事行政或具政治性機構團體而"},{"start":6398.718,"end":6418.5,"text":"發表危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容這個危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容到底是什麼呢我才疏學淺請問一下你能不能具體的告訴大家到底是什麼"},{"start":6419.824,"end":6433.187,"text":"好,我想韋瑩的目的,她還是在避免中共利用我們台灣沒有,我說危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序比如說消滅中華民國主權這個已經是在法條裡面了嘛我知道,比如說在消滅中華民國主權"},{"start":6440.589,"end":6458.886,"text":"好 光是發表這樣的講話就能夠危害中華民國了嗎中華民國什麼時候變得那麼沒有自信 那麼脆弱呢我們看一下股吹武統台灣股吹用武力的方式來侵略台灣像這些嘴巴講就可以啊來看一下蔡英文總統她之前也是陸委會的主委"},{"start":6467.403,"end":6487.359,"text":"2000年8月4號他說陸委會主委蔡英文表示台灣無法逃避一個中國的問題從文化地理來看未來的一個中國是台灣民眾唯一的選擇蔡英文表示一個中國是我們必須面對的問題台灣沒有空間跟可能性去逃避一個中國的問題"},{"start":6488.98,"end":6502.809,"text":"陳水扁所提的九二精神最重要的特質就是交流、對話、擱置爭議。若中國大陸覺得九二年所發生的事情對雙方的關係是重大而有意義的,我們願意朝這個方向來解釋或考慮。他說,被擱置的爭議總是有一天會被解決的。"},{"start":6511.235,"end":6516.779,"text":"如果交流對話是成功的話,外在的客觀環境會改變,一個中國的問題的解決就相對變得簡單蔡英文認為,無論是統一、台獨或維持現狀,台灣人民只有一個選擇,那就是未來的一個中國"},{"start":6532.31,"end":6559.267,"text":"他指出 台灣除了少數原住民之外 就是我啦大部分都是從中國大陸移民而來的雖然現在在你們的口中這些人叫做其餘人雖然台灣是一個開放性的多元文化但中國文化仍然是核心這是當時的陸委會主委也是我們前總統蔡英文她說的"},{"start":6559.887,"end":6585.548,"text":"然後我們再來看一下你們現在沒有自信到什麼程度呢你們除了在法條上規範之外呢你還要罰款如果這些人講了這些話你要處台幣一萬五千塊以上五萬元以下然後要按次處罰我要再請問一下主委這個第九條第十項提到的台灣地區人民指的是台灣地區的所有人民對吧是的好 照你說立法委員 是嗎"},{"start":6590.925,"end":6597.728,"text":"你們讓我看前天梁副主委不是說嗎樂見立法委員和民間在兩岸之間交換意見那要怎麼樣的兩岸交流才不會危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序呢立法可以這麼抽象的我希望你們提出來的立法不要那麼抽象好不好我要再講的是這樣的法條一旦修出來從此之後"},{"start":6618.777,"end":6626.302,"text":"台灣人民在大陸的一言一行都要被政府檢驗連我們的思想都要被你們檢驗一旦政府認為有問題呢 我們的人民只要一下飛機到了我們的台灣 就要等著收罰單 是不是我看啊 孫主委你也別講太多了 我時間到了"},{"start":6641.271,"end":6643.512,"text":"與其把台灣搞得這麼豐盛鶴立 不如乾脆停止ECFA然後呢 全面的斷行什麼立法委員啊 民間人士的交流也不必了啦台灣那就等著我們賴清德總統說的大公司跟小公司的併購會議上 我們再一起談"},{"start":6665.236,"end":6676.104,"text":"我認為很奇怪了你們你們既要享受ECFA的好處然後又要恐嚇懲罰創造好處的台商和人民然後把大家認為人心狂我還沒向你說話"},{"start":6679.619,"end":6693.87,"text":"你們這段時間的做法還不恐嚇人民啊讓得大家人心惶惶的這樣你們很開心了是不是你們民進黨啊真的是一代不如一代我記得以前徐新娘前輩也是以前民進黨的主席曾經說過大膽西進 越馬中原這樣的大氣魄已經不見了而現在的民進黨只剩下什麼只剩下會欺負台灣人民啊民進黨你們真是墮落"},{"start":6708.889,"end":6717.96,"text":"這不是事實委員我們不接受這樣的事實好謝謝我們請徐宇貞委員謝謝主席我們請邱主委好請主委"},{"start":6738.892,"end":6759.863,"text":"主委 針對陸委會在報告的第二頁提到說為避免中共利用台灣民眾發表矮化我方主權等相關爭議的言行混淆我國認同以稅請其侵略並吞台灣之政治目的本提案有助於維護我國主權與尊嚴所以陸委會予以支持"},{"start":6760.99,"end":6780.87,"text":"主委既然你這邊要談矮化跟談尊嚴我們今天就再來探討一下賴清德總統說的大公司的併購說上次在質詢的時候我請教過您賴總統說的中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果大公司要併購小公司大陸應該要提條件不是台灣來提條件"},{"start":6782.251,"end":6787.698,"text":"像是主委您是請我不要過度延伸總統的話那今天我們就從字面上來討論我要很嚴肅的請教主委為什麼我們的總統要公開宣稱台灣是比較小的公司"},{"start":6797.009,"end":6813.966,"text":"國家元首在國際跟全民之前用小來形容自己的國家地位這難道不是自我矮化嗎難道國家的主權還有大小之分嗎難道這樣的說法不是在傷害台灣的主權跟尊嚴嗎請主委回答委員我還是要強調兩岸的互動不應該"},{"start":6820.506,"end":6849.602,"text":"不然是創設一個我們無法接受的前提然後拔不交流是說併購這兩個字嗎不是你不能說你一定要接受我一中原則的九二共識你必須要先接受我們要先接受台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分總統說的併購說你同意嗎他說我們是小公司兩個互動要對等尊嚴相互尊重那請問一下他說我們自己是小公司這樣有沒有矮化的"},{"start":6850.305,"end":6876.096,"text":"他只是做一個兩岸在互動的時候你不要設置我們無法接受的前提那這個前提就是要求台灣變成地方政府台灣成為中華民共和國的一部分所以面對主權的時候我們是寸步都不能退讓不該有這種小公司的比喻不管是用什麼比喻我覺得用這樣來形容自己這種"},{"start":6878.077,"end":6885.825,"text":"呃 自貶式的一個角色的一個敘述我覺得又不是一個國家的元首那賴總統是甚麼意思那請您解釋一下好 主委我跟您不是 主委那我們給你30秒請您解釋賴總統說的這個小公司是甚麼意思我給你30秒的時間"},{"start":6899.773,"end":6908.101,"text":"兩岸互動應該要秉持著對等尊嚴 相互尊重這只是在做兩岸互動的比喻 不用過度的延伸不是過度的延伸 我現在在請教你 你也講不出來家居在我們那種前提 我們可以接受嗎"},{"start":6920.754,"end":6927.038,"text":"我跟委員報告 我每次在做民調 一年以來有七成以上的民眾不贊成台灣接受中國大陸不合理的政治檢諜我沒有惱羞成怒 我只是說兩岸的互動 應該要對等尊嚴 相互尊重"},{"start":6941.446,"end":6961.855,"text":"他應該要正視中華民國客觀存在的事實我一直問你我們總統說的這個小公司什麼意思你都不敢正面回答代表你就知道這樣的敘述是不對的這樣有自我矮化的一個問題所以你一直不敢正面回答我一直在扯東扯西的而且我跟你講不用過度的解讀跟區別如果今天這些話"},{"start":6962.995,"end":6982.52,"text":"是國際媒體還有對岸的媒體來引用賴總統說的小公司的言論大作文章請問我們要怎麼澄清我跟國際媒體講這個他們就聽得懂你跟他互動就是要對等尊嚴不必要相互尊重你不要拿一個我們無法接受的前提自我矮化的意思嗎"},{"start":6983.922,"end":6997.63,"text":"你也無法嗎?你不要設置一個我們無法接受的前提嘛然後把所有的無法交流互動塞給你我們不接受就用軍機艦島來威嚇我們因為要你去反駁賴總統說的話這也是為難你啦那當然今天的修法就有人提議嘛就是我們要政務副首長以上檢任13職以上的人員還有中校以上的軍官各級公立學校校長不得參與"},{"start":7013.46,"end":7028.282,"text":"大陸地區的黨政軍活動否則可能違反妨礙國家尊嚴那你們也支持修法的方向請問主委所謂妨礙國家尊嚴這是法律明文定義的概念還是行政機關主觀判定的結果"},{"start":7030.083,"end":7052.982,"text":"我們對於委員為了強化我們民主機制為了減少對跟中國大陸被他滲透統戰分化那麼訂了這些法律那我們也有強調由於有限制民眾的這些言論或是表意的這些所以反對國家尊嚴有法律明文的定義嗎"},{"start":7053.883,"end":7077.035,"text":"部分我如果說進入到法律實質的部分我們願意坐下來再來斟酌自言就是一個主觀判定嘛那也就是說如果在活動上奏大陸的國歌我們代表就是尊重主辦方的國際禮儀然後站起來的話這樣會不會說是配合統戰跟委員報告我們現行的法律還不是修法對於中國大陸黨政軍舉辦的國家慶典"},{"start":7080.797,"end":7103.718,"text":"我們的如果退帳或是我們的像規範的這些國家安全的這些機關的這些副首長以上的人去參加這個活動未經許可去參加這個活動對他的旗揮歌的行李唱誦行李唱誦都是違法的要依法處分這個是目前的法律規定違反什麼法"},{"start":7104.775,"end":7107.779,"text":"委員把兩條列計及有條之三好 那我現在請教您一下喔2026年APEC峰會將會由中國主辦屆時我們一定要派官員去參加那開幕式會奏中國的國歌我們的官員是應該要站起來還是應該要繼續做委員"},{"start":7121.874,"end":7138.321,"text":"這個都是經過政府核准的我們剛剛講那個是未經許可的所以說參加APEC峰會的人我們到大陸去的話只要他這個站起來這個唱國歌唱中國的國歌站起來的時候是沒有問題我想我們的我們每次到中國大陸參加這個國際會議都有一定的這個規範基本上他會有一個適當的這個表達這個"},{"start":7149.706,"end":7159.077,"text":"那同時他們是受到政府同意前往所以不受到你剛剛所說的第九條之殺的那種事件那不好意思主席再給我三十秒因為我給邱主委很多的時間回答"},{"start":7164.403,"end":7183.102,"text":"最後再問您一個問題就是我們台灣在2010年的上海市博會跟2015年的米蘭市博會都有設置台灣館那儘管地緣政治的壓力存在我們依舊能夠在國際舞台上保有主體性跟名稱的尊嚴但是在今年日本大阪所舉辦的這個市博會"},{"start":7185.925,"end":7211.364,"text":"我們卻只能用Tech World科技館的名義參加連台灣館三個字都消失了這樣的退讓與隱身不僅是對我國主權性的自我切割也是對我們人民的這個雙重背叛更離譜的是根據中央社的報導這個是日本共同社引述知情人士指出是日本外務省的中國的要求向我方施壓要求不得冠名台灣主委請問一下"},{"start":7212.565,"end":7231.306,"text":"這樣是不是中國對我國的民意的打壓這樣是不是配合中國的行為如果說連台灣管三個字都不敢說那還是台灣政府嗎那也不是贊重了對岸去台灣化的這個下懷而且這個就叫維護國家尊嚴嗎所以如果這樣子的話那你覺得我們是不是應該"},{"start":7232.711,"end":7245.361,"text":"要處罰經濟部因為他算不算配合統戰我想我們要譴責的是中共對台灣的外交打壓無所不用其極這個只會讓台灣人那我們自己是不是應該堅守自己的這個尊嚴呢否則為什麼2010的世博會可以2015的米蘭世博會也可以唯獨2025的這個世博會卻不行而且我方也接受了"},{"start":7259.352,"end":7286.21,"text":"我們可以不要去設啊 既然矮化我們 不讓我們設台灣館 我們也可以不要去設啊所以連自己國家的名字都不敢說出口的政府喔我覺得有什麼資格去處罰台灣人民 有什麼資格去處罰所謂的我們的一些在台灣的演藝人員 說他們不夠愛國所以請你們從這個大阪的這個科技館的名字開始 先處罰我們還是要譴責中共對台灣的打壓我覺得要先從自己做起 謝謝"},{"start":7291.206,"end":7292.848,"text":"好 我們請劉許廷常委謝謝主席 邱主委要不要喝口水還可以嗎 好 那就麻煩你了好 請主委"},{"start":7309.14,"end":7338.036,"text":"謝謝牛委員主委早安辛苦了今天從兩個角度探討一下今天有關法案審查今天進行詢答第一個本席想要就教的是有關於制度的明確性跟立法時大家的溝通責任就是說現在我們有很多民進黨的同事提出了兩岸人民關係條例港澳關係條例等等一些修正草案那請問現在陸委會這邊是不是會有院版這樣子的一個方案作為對照參考"},{"start":7338.985,"end":7352.411,"text":"是跟委員報告我們為了落實17項的因應策略那我們有負責除了行政方面的這個措施之外修法包括兩條例我們也會提願版"},{"start":7355.792,"end":7378.143,"text":"會有願板?那你有時間表嗎?時間表就是我們的整個行政作業目前還在作業過程當中所以今天還不方便你現在是朝你的階段研究的階段還是抱怨神?因為你們先達成共識然後抱行政院核定,願會核定之後才會送立法願嗎?對對對那現在走到哪裡了?現在走到在行政院了已經寫完了喔?"},{"start":7378.883,"end":7404.943,"text":"在行政院所以就表示你們內容但是還在討論當中因為整個程序還沒做完我之所以會去提願板的必要性是因為我想不管是行政端或立法委員在修正任何法案的時候他其實都要有清楚大家都要擔負論述跟溝通的一個責任以現在這幾個版本來講雖然你在你的報告裡面你都講說你支持這樣的一個修法方向可是其實你在你的內容裡面你就有提到說"},{"start":7405.943,"end":7431.04,"text":"這樣子的一個法律修正涉及對於人民言論及表意範疇的限制文字屬不確定法律概念為了注意兼顧民眾基本權益之保護使民眾可以預見相關規範內涵行政機關得以認定及執行以及司法審查時得以確認相關的規範要進一步研議是嘛對不對所以表示說如果今天照本來委員的版本照案通過其實是有一些危險性的嘛"},{"start":7431.32,"end":7453.315,"text":"因為他其實講的並不清楚對不對對 就是那個法律過程的要件我們還是要再明確一點簡單來說就是法律明確性原則嘛這不管是之前的國安法的審查或是今天兩岸關係兩岸人民關係條例的一個審查那條紅線要畫在哪裡他其實應該是越清楚越好嘛是的你才會讓大家知道那條紅線明確嘛而不會造成說法律有可能變成有濫用的一個狀況"},{"start":7454.396,"end":7481.789,"text":"那既然你院版其實已經起草了差不多了只是還沒有定案對不對那為什麼你不在報告裡面清楚的去續明就是說怎麼樣去寫這個規範是比較清楚的呢你只有跟他講說他的不清楚但你卻沒有講怎麼樣比較清楚你是不是要在這邊做一下補充的說明是委員我們設計的這個未來的我們院版他是以落實17項的相關的這些因應策略為主"},{"start":7482.429,"end":7508.81,"text":"那我們設計的方向可能跟今天的提案委員的組織未必完全一致但是我們今天提案委員他很多就是民主防衛機制我們都有認同你說未必跟現在委員提案的版本一致是強度上的不一致還是方向上的不一致就是規範的那些內容或是規範的一些所以連方向上可能都有不一致嗎"},{"start":7511.091,"end":7527.653,"text":"立法的態度就是當然要很嚴謹那今天委員這邊提的案子剛剛委員有很多他們想提案子沒有被提出來還在這個程序委員會我問你嘛 程序委會但是我們的案子是"},{"start":7528.334,"end":7543.613,"text":"以落實賴總統所提出實施這樣的因應策略為主的那些規管措施我今天要提這一段就是因為在立法的時候其實從答詢開始它就是一個溝通的開始如果你今天報告只是講它的東西不明確但你沒有明確的講出那應該是什麼"},{"start":7544.514,"end":7569.55,"text":"那其實某一些層面會變成原地踏步跟委員報告既然有願版願版出來我們也會去跟委員來報告我們的一些理念的設計跟提案的一些我想這部分尤其是法律明確性是本席比較要求的因為你看像之前有修正幾次包含國安法等等其實都出現大量起訴但最後被判的比例並沒有那麼高嘛對不對但是任何一個人他一旦被起訴被偵查被偵辦"},{"start":7570.45,"end":7598.12,"text":"他可能在社會上被貼標籤受到一定的衝擊形象的打擊等等到最後可能是沒事那你是不是其實某一些層面來講就要傷及無辜所以你在法律立法的設計的技術上跟品質上本來就要從前端要嚴格把關我希望這樣的法案修正當然大家都希望國家安全為重但是問題就是說討論的過程你不能不理性嘛你不能不嚴謹好不好這是我要提醒的謝謝謝謝委員第二個就是順著往下講叫做社會現在的氛圍對於理性討論這件事情的影響這"},{"start":7600.222,"end":7623.997,"text":"主委喔 雖然你一下都是兩岸關係的主管機關本來應該是要希望大家可以合理的來交流對談等等但是現在好像大家在問你的時候都在問要怎麼防備啊 怎麼三管五卡啊那當然就是因為氛圍不好嘛現在氛圍要萬事皆統戰 輕鳥說了算欸這主委你最近有沒有看新聞有一個人在路上應該是直播還是在拍影片就有一個人跑進來說什麼六四天安門"},{"start":7625.069,"end":7646.875,"text":"然後那個拍攝會講 幹嘛 我是台灣人欸就鬧了一個烏龍為什麼發生這個事 主委你知道嗎來 請說明因為網路上現在很多青鳥在講說現在我們已經被滲透了很多人都用直播什麼在偷拍我們的設施所以大家要挺身而出去阻擋這些人然後變得現在任何人包含前面之前也有個是拍 他喜歡拍馬路路口"},{"start":7647.435,"end":7676.666,"text":"他就喜歡拍他說那是無意義的照片但他喜歡蒐集這樣的照片結果就被人家就被人家盤問被人家阻止就出現很多這樣的事情金明聯要去借北港朝天北港媽祖廟前面的這個北港證供所申請入權但因為要辦廟會北港的廟要辦廟會所以證供所表示說可不可以喬別的時間結果網路上親鳥就講北港媽祖被中共統戰現在到處都是這樣的一個聲音主委你有沒有觀察到這樣的事情"},{"start":7678.571,"end":7704.909,"text":"謝謝委員當然這個我們的國人開始重視國安開始對於中共對台的滲透統戰開始關注包括像有許多招攬我們的年輕朋友復路去交流參加比賽人人有獎像這些統戰的活動國人過去可能都沒有那麼多的關心那現在打電話到路我會都蠻多的"},{"start":7706.87,"end":7730.621,"text":"主委我要講這些故事的原因就是說社會現在焦慮而且這個焦慮我認為已經超出了理性的範疇嘛因為你現在在路上拍個入口都被人家盤問對不對這是很奇怪的事嘛你在那邊開個直播被人家跑進來亂入對不對這是不太好的狀況但是他只有澄清的話就得到一些理解對我現在講的意思就是說即便有這樣的氛圍大家在討論立法的時候還是要有理性不能被這樣的東西牽著走"},{"start":7731.901,"end":7755.153,"text":"我非常贊成應該要在理性的環境下來推動我們是在野黨你們是執政黨所以至少我們在應該要理性的討論然後要講道理這件事情我們要達成實質的共識對不對我們強化社會溝通爭取共識這個是我們職責所在也謝謝委員長我之所以講說我們一定要秉持理性討論的原因就是因為如果我們連執政當局如果連這條線都要配合焦慮情緒然後亂畫一通的話會出事"},{"start":7759.195,"end":7778.904,"text":"比如說有幾個版本講說有任何這個矮化國家的意圖對不對矮化國家的這樣相關的言論或配合大陸地區有統戰目的的政治宣傳行為等等他現在未來就要列入你的防守範圍就要開罰對不對剛剛很多人都問那賴清德總統的併購論那都算不算某一種層面的矮化呢"},{"start":7781.76,"end":7796.794,"text":"統戰如果是由大家說的算對不對和平談判促成統一它一定也是統戰的一環法委員那個不要過度的去解讀啦我們說兩岸的互動應該要對等尊嚴相互尊重啦我今天不是要跟你吵架我就是要提醒你這個事就是說因為"},{"start":7797.995,"end":7816.148,"text":"統戰這也是很模糊的概念很模糊的概念的時候大家就講說你只要坐下來談很多人也講是統戰你去參加交流去參加比賽他也講你統戰你去觀光他也講你是統戰你在路口拍照他都講你是統戰在這樣的一個情況之下如果我們的法律去寫說任何有相關的行為都都要受罰那是不是會變成"},{"start":7817.777,"end":7844.803,"text":"變了一個很奇怪的狀況我們也跟委員一樣看法對言論跟表意的範疇要比較審慎如果言論跟表意都要在這次的立法被管制的話那賴清德總統的併購論絕對會第一個拿出來被挑戰因為併購你當然講你講的是我們要有條件要有前提可是講說大公司併小公司第一我們被併第二如果要提條件表示要談判那豈不是說要透過談判的方式解決兩岸問題嗎這是賴總統的官方立場是陸委會的官方立場嗎"},{"start":7847.645,"end":7871.151,"text":"真的委員對這個議題就不要過度解讀我們只是說兩岸在互動的時候還是要秉持著你要正視我的存在我們要對等尊嚴相互尊重我都願意多聽主委講幾句我也希望大家在立法過程中不要被太過焦慮的社會氛圍你反而執政黨有的時候也要稍微平衡一下這樣的社會氛圍而不是放任這樣的東西到最後用情緒我們會理性溝通爭取共識爭取共識好不好多花一點時間嚴肅討論可以嗎是謝謝你委員"},{"start":7878.117,"end":7879.078,"text":"好 請吳清明委員好 三位 一位同仁請我們陸委會主委 邱主委好 請主委"},{"start":7897.113,"end":7908.139,"text":"委員好 今天審查大陸第七人民關係條例及香港澳門的關係條例那我們都知道其實現在的社會有很多 不管說他的宗教跟公職人員在我們內政部建構的一個資訊的透明化包含在中國大陸一定要透過來登記"},{"start":7923.646,"end":7943.682,"text":"整個登錄的案件還是非常少只有本席這邊的資料只有250件是不是指委你有掌握到我們未來要怎樣讓我們所有到對岸做交流大家都能透明化這就是我們的陸委會這邊要多加的宣導包含透過我們媒體來做宣導"},{"start":7949.588,"end":7957.511,"text":"我們到對岸的不管是任何的交流大家這個自信還是要透明化這有沒有掌握"},{"start":7958.092,"end":7980.885,"text":"是 謝謝委員 這是我們努力的目標有關於揭露婦女交流的資訊我們現在包括內政部都在呼籲包括宗教各個社團踴躍登陸昨天我們開委員會議的時候我們也做成了希望各部會"},{"start":7982.765,"end":8011.331,"text":"就他所屬的工協會復入為了整個交流的安全交流的透明化、公開化讓國人能夠了解儘量的去揭露那當然我們也有呼籲國人復入要注意他的人身安全的風險也歡迎到這個陸委會的這個動態登錄系統多一份登錄就多一份安全那另外"},{"start":8012.091,"end":8023.96,"text":"我們的教育部也在精進附入交流的這個整個網路的平台未來各級學校包括老師也好學生也好學生"},{"start":8024.588,"end":8042.633,"text":"或者轉發各種的交流活動都必須要在這個登錄平台去登錄揭露那這個都是除了確保自己安全之外也能夠跟家長交代跟社會有一個公開透明的可以監督那這也是替國人負責任"},{"start":8044.093,"end":8063.192,"text":"那未來,也跟委員報告,未來我們修法的重點也在希望我們從政府官員到民意代表從立法委員到村里長都能夠納入這一整套的賦入去的時候都要依規定來做審查還有請假"},{"start":8066.395,"end":8083.392,"text":"那這個是不管是政府從高階官員到基層人員都必須一律的遵守那以確保我們附陸交流次序呢非常的完整那也可以做好這個安全的保障以及我們各種的統戰風險的提醒"},{"start":8086.294,"end":8114.124,"text":"因為主委你剛才說到對岸不管交流不管說任何的行程都是公開必須登錄必須登錄我們就是要嚴格的執行這可以確保一定的安全性還可以確保在同站這個部份也可以去檢討是不是整個透明不管說任何的團體包含不是包含學校老師"},{"start":8114.997,"end":8143.562,"text":"我們是整個團體都要去登錄那登錄我們還是要多加的宣傳不然本時在這收款才250件目前還是在鼓勵性子未來修法我們是不是有一些規範那我們可以跟大院一起來討論讓大家踴躍來登錄登錄對大家有好處對我們民主憲政的正常運作也有幫助"},{"start":8144.042,"end":8172.837,"text":"因為這樣,去到那裡的安全性,我們才能追蹤得到你說,尤其本市有這麼多資料,被扣押的有102件以及失聯招限制人身自由的又有89件所以在這個部分,我們整個到對岸去登陸整個行程這是一個非常重要,我們一定要落實的去做"},{"start":8173.861,"end":8194.873,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 我們來過報案的有102件沒有報案的那黑數搞不好更多這些人都在大陸失蹤 被強制的拘押盤查或者是被他們的刑法限制人身自由從去年到現在有102件 這個數字不斷在增加"},{"start":8197.714,"end":8212.399,"text":"所以國人復入的風險是增加的這也是我們兩岸互動我們最在意的地方所以我們為什麼要提高旅遊警示而且希望大家都能夠到陸委會也好教育部也好"},{"start":8214.58,"end":8238.097,"text":"登陸我們這個系統那剛剛委員也說了為了我們民主政治的正常運作那麼大家都能夠揭露那我們也在鼓勵各界的人士能夠揭露能夠去填報這個詳細的這個資訊讓社會了解同時也獲得一份的安全保障我們會努力謝謝 謝謝主委好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":8255.368,"end":8258.95,"text":"下一位我們請我們的召委張宏祿召委謝謝我請主委總委好"},{"start":8267.83,"end":8294.94,"text":"主委其實今天這個法案提案的內容其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在台灣的主權還有我們民主的生活方式對不對對其實最主要就是這樣對我們在台灣如果沒有民主的自由我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧今天這些法案都在民主防衛"},{"start":8296.826,"end":8320.133,"text":"不管是什麼方位啦就台灣如果沒有民主我們今天這麼多立法委員不管是哪一黨哪一派的都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你那你也要很誠實的回答這是不是民主的真諦對啊所以我們守護的是這個啊那另外我們再怎麼樣我們是要守護台灣的中華民國"},{"start":8322.169,"end":8348.342,"text":"現在就是台灣台澎金嘛我們的主權嘛 對不對這是我們最主要的嘛我們前提是這樣 對不對啊 主委是 我們當然是守護我們國家主權守護我們自由民主的生活方式這是我們要去做的啦我先請教你幾個問題啊剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化我想請問一下主委喔"},{"start":8349.502,"end":8376.829,"text":"一間公司小它的價值就少嗎我想應該是未必什麼未必很多公司它人不多但是它的價值是超過那種好幾萬人的公司的是不是當然這全世界有很多這一種對不對我的規模小但我的價值高我在全球的"},{"start":8377.589,"end":8395.12,"text":"經貿的影響力跟那個關鍵的地位是非常重要的那很像不像台灣我們台灣在全球半導體業在全球科技業裡面我們台灣雖然小但我們人才多但我們有關鍵的技術我們這間公司人雖然不多"},{"start":8396.445,"end":8420.557,"text":"但我們的價值是比很多那個好幾萬那個工廠的那個價值高出上千倍吧是 是不是 是不是這樣是好 那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的咩我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好"},{"start":8421.898,"end":8438.2,"text":"就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊"},{"start":8439.762,"end":8464.403,"text":"這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講"},{"start":8468.188,"end":8490.349,"text":"以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得"},{"start":8491.96,"end":8503.733,"text":"交流 大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理"},{"start":8504.688,"end":8533.607,"text":"對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎 有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是 我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊"},{"start":8535.308,"end":8560.201,"text":"有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩的我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統"},{"start":8561.121,"end":8586.75,"text":"鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的"},{"start":8589.058,"end":8615.815,"text":"對一些重要的人、特殊的人我們是採取比較高度的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了"},{"start":8619.039,"end":8625.355,"text":"替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦"},{"start":8627.342,"end":8653.433,"text":"對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在說這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國不然這是什麼我跟你講這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法"},{"start":8654.253,"end":8671.55,"text":"不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的試讀教育這個我們會來全力努力好 謝謝"},{"start":8675.421,"end":8694.074,"text":"好謝謝我們張宏祿委員我們的召委來下一位何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在來林子英林子英林子英委員不在葉言之葉言之葉言之委員不在習新穎好習新穎委員好"},{"start":8707.887,"end":8708.667,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請邱主委好 請主委主委好我們大家都非常肯定國安非常的重要那確實大陸近來也有很多的行為"},{"start":8738.437,"end":8761.598,"text":"這個威脅到台灣所以我們共同抵禦這種情況我們也要共同支持這個國安但是呢 本席手上有幾份數據報告顯示我們去年2024年因為共諜案起訴的人數是2021年的三倍之多"},{"start":8762.899,"end":8783.92,"text":"其中甚至包括不少的現役還有退役軍人這代表什麼這代表對岸的滲透不僅沒有減緩而且更加的猖獗每位國人還有對政府高層或軍隊被滲透的現象非常的憂心"},{"start":8784.884,"end":8800.094,"text":"所以主委您認不認同我們整個在維護國安的同時除了小老百姓更重要的就是這些掌握機密的人您認同嗎你只要回答認同或不認同"},{"start":8801.61,"end":8821.629,"text":"是 我認同接著我們還看到一個更令人憂心的今年就爆發很多我們看到執政黨政府的內部包含一些核心人員掌握機密的人員也頻頻傳出被中共吸收為其工作的案例您知道這些事嗎"},{"start":8822.589,"end":8846.425,"text":"我想整個社會都非常關注所以相較於一般社會人士赴大陸交流的言行我們本來也應該進行種種的規範但是政府內部這些真正可能觸犯接觸我們國家機密甚至已經被對岸吸收的核心人員"},{"start":8848.168,"end":8873.742,"text":"我想知道我們陸委會你難道沒有版本你要去修改法令能夠有更有效的防範措施呢我們看到對於沒有機密的社會人士市場的小老百姓社會大眾我們來修法制約但是對於我們這些真正會掌握到我們國家機密的核心人員可以說是"},{"start":8874.902,"end":8897.541,"text":"这个执政党身边的自己人却视若无睹毫无防范可以可以等一下你讲嘛所以毫无设防我们这个觉得非常的遗憾那所以家贼难防啊国之大患还有罚老百姓容易啊"},{"start":8898.582,"end":8912.24,"text":"但是要罰自己人很難所以好接下來請你檢答針對這個部分你剛剛說你們也很重視那請問你做了哪些具體的"},{"start":8915.174,"end":8930.813,"text":"這個措施舉例讓我們知道現在共諜案層出不窮那請問你防範的機制在哪裡你可以提出更具體的國安強化措施嗎請你簡單謝謝委員對於國家安全的重視因為這個"},{"start":8934.497,"end":8953.489,"text":"防治這個共諜因為權責不在我們陸委會但是我們知道政府在做了很多安全查核的工作避免這個事情發生那我們也知道許多的共諜的查出來像在軍方雖然他變成滲透的主要對象"},{"start":8954.269,"end":8964.542,"text":"但是我們也發現有百分之超過將近80以上的也都是因為軍方他們安全保密做得很好自己舉發出來的所以這個方面不能否定他們的努力"},{"start":8969.969,"end":8978.196,"text":"我們時間有限,我們大家都想聽,在座的每一位,甚至在網路上看的都想聽你到底做了什麼嗎?或是你幫我們的政府說,不是你的權責,那你做了些什麼?我想相關政府機關都密切合作,來減少這些共諜的出現"},{"start":8992.068,"end":9011.078,"text":"所以你說看看我們現在要修法規範我們的民眾但是我們這些真正掌握機密的政府相關的核心人員從總統府到外交部到執政黨的相關的秘書助理"},{"start":9011.929,"end":9039.799,"text":"你沒有任何的防災有已經說要加強安全查核都有在努力在做了就一個加強安全查核好沒關係因為我時間有限所以這一塊我們我相信大家聽完一定覺得你對民眾你就修法然後規範你加強安全查核我們對我們自己的尊公教人員的加強規範都有在未來的修法應該是蠻多的"},{"start":9041.024,"end":9053.406,"text":"未來的修法應該蠻多的因為我們今天沒有提出我們的版本未來我們修法都會強化這方面那對啊為什麼今天不提出版本這就是大家的疑問嘛我們有說明的我們還在程序當中"},{"start":9055.236,"end":9081.275,"text":"接著我們今天要討論的法案你們很早就看到這些提案了但是為什麼你知道整個提案內容可能有一些不是那麼明確比較籠統的問題你在報告書裡面也有寫這裡面有很多不確定這裡面的報告書有很多不確定的法律概念"},{"start":9082.296,"end":9100.592,"text":"然後呢 相關規範在法案討論時再進一步研議本席很想知道 今天就請你們陸委會要提出你們的立場你們明確的表示 你為什麼不對這些法案提出一些具體你的立場跟你的說明"},{"start":9102.473,"end":9117.624,"text":"這樣子我們要質詢我才知道你針對這些具體的做法跟你的意見是什麼你不能就全部交給說相關規範可與法案討論時進一步研議因為這幾個版本相關的這個有許多不確定的法律概念我們對於如何釐清那個要件未來在採取上才有明確化"},{"start":9128.711,"end":9153.454,"text":"那這我們需要跟幾個版本的委員坐下來持續溝通但是他的立法本意在強化我們的民主防衛機制在確保我們國家安全以及我們自由民主的憲政秩序來保護我們我覺得這些立法方向我們是給你肯定給你支持的你都在"},{"start":9155,"end":9169.776,"text":"回答我你都在廢話回答為什麼這些我們也認同這些大方向我們也認同啊但是你是行政單位你就應該要提出具體的這個明確你們的立場你不能這樣模糊嘛"},{"start":9170.287,"end":9185.754,"text":"我們沒有模糊啊 我們是支持這樣的修法你支持好 那OK 你既然這樣講今天我們很多法條講到配合附和大陸地區黨務軍事等等這個是禁止 就是說修正"},{"start":9187.214,"end":9206.137,"text":"條文裡面不能做這些事還有不得配合大陸地區具有統戰目的的宣傳行為還有不得公然發表我國非主權獨立國家系其他國家之一等等等等這樣的言論因為時間關係我不全念"},{"start":9206.718,"end":9228.136,"text":"那像這些比如說我就請問你你在學術研討會上我發表了那個學界他可能不是很清楚你的所謂配合跟附和這個很籠統啊那怎麼樣叫配合怎麼叫附和還有你這個剛剛我念的這三種包含我們的賴總統他都公開講了中國併購台灣哇這個提條件"},{"start":9232.439,"end":9257.284,"text":"這個有沒有觸犯啊有沒有觸犯分裂國土的言論或者是配合附和對岸所以本席要說的就是說還有就是說有些台灣藝人如果在商業的演出當中因為主辦方的要求可能講了兩岸一家親啊這樣算不算配合大陸地區具有統戰目的呢或者是有很多台灣民眾他的祖先來自中國大陸"},{"start":9257.924,"end":9268.781,"text":"因為他難道不能講說我們本來就是兩岸一家親或者是我們這個同源同種等等的言論所以"},{"start":9269.588,"end":9285.619,"text":"本席要強調的就是說今天你們沒有針對這些籠統的提出意見那你說要到審查的時候我看不到你的立場我看不到你這個明確的來講出來所以什麼叫併購什麼樣叫唱賀對岸"},{"start":9289.775,"end":9313.766,"text":"因為民眾啊我們現在講的是修法你只要進入修法民眾就有這個違反司法的風險他很容易就可能違法我支持委員的看法就是立法目的我們要肯定這些委員的用心委員的用心不用你在這邊拍馬屁我們好像是一個方向"},{"start":9314.807,"end":9329.799,"text":"你剛剛講一些如果確定那種法律不確定概念這個我們可以就有關相關要件再來形成共識我覺得你們應該要針對今天所有委員提出來的你可不可以在會後提出你們的見解"},{"start":9330.72,"end":9358.308,"text":"那主席您認同嗎就是說你本來你行政單位對於委員的提案你不是提出我告訴你每一個單位說認同當然認同不認同是一種立場但是你也要有一些比較具體的不然這樣子很模糊啊你們要提出你們的立場你不能全部你每一項都是你自己還知道這些都跟民眾的言論自由相關有關對那所以你應該提出你的立場"},{"start":9359.806,"end":9367.522,"text":"所以是不是可以在會後我給你們時間在下一次因為我們今天只詢答我們沒有主條你們應該要提出見解"},{"start":9370.933,"end":9389.824,"text":"可以嗎我覺得給他們時間啊但是你要先提出來你不要都是在現場在那邊講因為其實照理我們質詢前你就該提出來不然我要質詢你什麼你就只有一個你肯定我也肯定啊對國安我們大家都肯定啊可以嗎"},{"start":9391.485,"end":9412.303,"text":"是 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先請過國歌會計畫也幫國歌會省國計畫也處理過學術倫理的案件"},{"start":29.454,"end":58.84,"text":"但我發現這整件事情誇張的程度已經超越我的想像了因為我處理過相關不管計畫的審查還是學倫的案子啊我講一句比較直接的我沒有看過這麼假的啦我為什麼說沒有看過這麼假的啊這件事情發生的時候啊我那時候人離開立法院那因為當職業律師啊我也比較沒有在關心法學界的事情結果竟然"},{"start":61.035,"end":70.884,"text":"等到我們這個注音公司派出去整個法學界我必須老實跟主委講現在是大爆炸我為什麼說大爆炸竟然在自己的學術履歷表上面造假造假這件事情我當然覺得有去追當年這個事情到底是怎麼處理的怎麼會處理成這個樣子"},{"start":89.932,"end":111.024,"text":"教育部的部分我去找教育部國科會的部分我覺得事前就要把它講清楚我相信主委我這幾天連續在追這個案子主委應該有充分準備了當初國科會在處理這個案子的時候法律專業學門七個委員一致決"},{"start":118.167,"end":127.558,"text":"說這個違反學術倫理情節重大結果最後到學倫大會被推翻掉了主委這個過程你掌握了沒有"},{"start":129.635,"end":157.187,"text":"我了解當初在國科會的學術倫理委員會裡面討論我們都是依程序在進行當初不是我負責但是依程序進行委員討論表決是沒有到三分之二差一票嘛對不對就差一點但是當然委員也都知道說我這樣講好了啦七位"},{"start":160.458,"end":187.427,"text":"在法律學門裡面可以在這個調查小組裡面的成員其中兩個還被民進黨提當大法官這七位在法學界裡面有一定的學術分量這我相信七位一自覺被學倫大會給推翻掉我老實說我是聞所未聞我真的聞所未聞因為這整件事情太離譜了"},{"start":188.806,"end":215.977,"text":"太曲折了太離奇了這七位在法學界裡面可以說是重量級的學者做出一致的決議那其實這麼簡單的事情還要七個重量級的法學界的學者做出一致的決議其實也沒必要啦大概問一個大學生就知道了啦你自己哪所學校畢業的你不知道哪個系所畢業的你不知道"},{"start":217.011,"end":220.232,"text":"在履歷表上面啊可以這樣公然造假但離譜的事情是什麼離譜的事情是我們當初的科技部所表達的立場是這個學倫大會不成立沒有達到三分之二差一票我簡單問一個問題啊在學倫大會裡面有沒有基本的利益迴避原則"},{"start":246.789,"end":256.67,"text":"有沒有利益迴避原則是所有的審查一定要遵循的原則嗎當初的學倫大會成員有沒有違反利益迴避原則的"},{"start":258.32,"end":279.686,"text":"當初就我所知一定都做過這種審查真的嗎 好來一定有 但是這個所謂的審查就是說當事人要簽切結書是 你們切結書長什麼樣子不用給我個人寫的切結書啦個人的切結書有簽名的我都尊重啦公版的切結書可以給我看嗎"},{"start":280.951,"end":302.139,"text":"這一部分我到公版的切結書就是空白的嘛就是沒有簽名那一種嘛你要切結上述事項我沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則的那個空白的公版切結書可以給我嗎好 我們請好 我今天在這邊質詢公開檢舉啊裡面有人看不下去啊直接跟我投訴啊裡面"},{"start":305.458,"end":333.841,"text":"有一個學倫審理委員會大會的委員是一個律師啦怎麼學倫會去找律師來當委員我也是搞不太清楚啊但沒有關係啦我尊重你們的篩選啊雖然作為一位法律系的教授中研院的研究員學倫大會這種level的東西去找律師啊來當委員我已經覺得很扯了結果你知道嗎"},{"start":335.872,"end":362.601,"text":"這個律師啊 學倫大會參與的這個律師他就是那個當事人擔任董事那家公司的訴訟代理人知道這件事嗎可以 可以這樣嗎我再簡單的描述一下是什麼法律關係的狀態啊這個當事人就是江雅琪啦是台電的董事結果學倫"},{"start":365.953,"end":385.298,"text":"大會裡面的委員而且當初是主導推翻法律學門決議的那個委員是拿台電的錢在幫台電當法律顧問處理訴訟的人他看到當事人這個學輪大會被指責的人是我的客戶的董事我的國科會是出了什麼事情啊"},{"start":397.145,"end":415.519,"text":"那個應該是要作為全國學者的表率耶學術倫理的標竿耶結果學人大會去找了一個被評判的人當董事公司的訴訟代理人來這個有沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則來 請教主委"},{"start":417.676,"end":442.472,"text":"我們國會定的學術倫理在審查委員要迴避的這些原則應該當初都是非常明確啦但是我請我們那個主秘他現在監我們的那個好拉請回答這個召集人來回答一下"},{"start":443.612,"end":465.9,"text":"報告委員我們在那個學倫審議料理第17點裡面有規定要相關迴避的事項但是委員剛剛提到的那個資訊我們那時候是沒有獲得這樣一個資訊沒有獲得這樣的資訊 奇怪了那位學倫委員他當哪一家公司的訴訟代理人他自己不知道我的當事人是誰我不知道然後姜雅琪在台電當董事我也不知道可以這樣混喔"},{"start":473.035,"end":474.216,"text":"可以這樣搞喔這丟臉啦把當初科技部的臉都丟光啦我這幾天收到我多少以前法學界的朋友傳來給我的訊息啊說怎麼會扯成這個樣子啊找一個訴訟代理人來"},{"start":496.381,"end":507.391,"text":"領前的訴訟代理人去推翻七位法學教授所做違反學倫的認定主委這件事不需要檢討嗎如果有違反學術倫理的事情有明確的證據那我們當然也許要再檢討需要多久"},{"start":526.205,"end":546.17,"text":"這個我現在是給你時間啦我本來以為你充分已經很準備已經很充足了啦那顯然還沒有掌握全部的狀況嘛那你說你要再回去調查OK我給你時間需要多久不要跟我說要三個月再一個月好了蛤 還要一個月喔兩個禮拜可以嗎"},{"start":547.383,"end":572.428,"text":"一個月好了啦 因為好 一個月 反正立法院研會啊我給你一個月今年夏天我等著你這件事情我一定會追到底我雖然雖然已經沒有在法學界了但出現這種荒腔走板離譜至極的事情我一定會追究責任到底好 謝謝委員之前科技部啊知道這個事情馬蜂窩捅大了你知道發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":577.296,"end":602.53,"text":"發生的事情是啥學倫大會沒有遵守利益關係迴避的原則推翻了法律專業學門從由召集人所自己召集的調查小組的決議結果跑出來找綠媒特意幫他洗地說他被汙止是設假的他哪有被汙止設假你床頭大會都是假的啊"},{"start":605.987,"end":626.677,"text":"不是有這種護航的事情出來大學生都有辦法判斷結果學倫大會掩飾成這個樣子護航成這個樣子還讓人家出來說哇 科技部啊 還我清白啦結果那時候的科技部部長看到知識體大"},{"start":628.294,"end":650.749,"text":"看到這個新聞出來了以後趕快發一個聲明啊說沒有沒有沒有這個學歷是造假的傷害學術信譽可能影響學術資源分配的公正性事後趕快發聲明稿我看了科技部後來發的那個聲明稿我看了就我不曉得是可笑還是可悲連科技部自己都知道有問題"},{"start":656.205,"end":658.889,"text":"趕快發一個聲明啦出來洗地當初的錯誤一直延續到今天有一些是總統府該負的責任"},{"start":670.064,"end":685.337,"text":"總統府副秘書長跟我說他們會回去處理給我一個回覆我到目前為止沒有接到回覆有一些是教育部該處理的我昨天已經質詢了教育部部長會回去處理那有一些"},{"start":686.727,"end":710.036,"text":"是國科會作為接任科技部業務的主管機關我知道不是在您任內發生的那但是這件事情一定要處理那順便講第二個層次從這個個案裡面我所看到的抽象性的問題什麼叫抽象性的問題啊主委我簡單的花一點時間給你解釋因為當初啊這一個人"},{"start":715.393,"end":739.007,"text":"吹哨者他要檢舉這整件事情的時候他要確認說他交給科技部的那個履歷表上面也造假因為他看到在大學端申請的資料是假的他要確認科技部的是不是也是假的所以呢他就要去找他給科技部的資料給科技部的資料科技部提供"},{"start":740.04,"end":759.382,"text":"所有計畫的申請人一個選項就是你可以選擇不要公開個人資料的主要學歷我其實有一點看不太懂我們科技部讓國科會計畫的申請人可以拒絕公開自己的最高學歷理由是什麼"},{"start":761.853,"end":782.964,"text":"我們第一就是尊重我們所有的學者他要不要公開包含電話號碼電話號碼 柱子要不要公開這個我覺得都要尊重啊這個沒有問題啊但是主要最高學歷是他的credential"},{"start":783.976,"end":812.839,"text":"是他的credential欸是那個我今天如果請教主委學歷喔你的最高學歷你會跟我說這個是你的隱私嗎不是學歷有時候那個學者公開的時候是他的畢業的到底是博士碩士還是學士還有他畢業的學校是是是有時候是這樣那我們也同意他不見得會公佈到他畢業的這個就是我的問題嘛院系所不見得啦你要來拿國家的資源"},{"start":813.82,"end":828.571,"text":"然後你要展示你的最高學歷是什麼這個到底會侵害到什麼權益我聽不懂啦不是啦我們學者公開說他不見得會寫他的畢業的系索他到學校一定會寫啦博士說是"},{"start":830.173,"end":856.915,"text":"你說學校一定會寫嘛一定會寫學校嘛哪個學校畢業一定要寫嘛不然這個主委你是學界出身的嗎我學界出身所以是很普遍的所以你應該很熟嘛我很熟你有審過任何的application沒有提供最高學歷是什麼的嗎審查委員一定看得到啦審查委員一定看得到讓他公開給大眾的不見其他社會大眾不用知道不一定啦 不一定要知道學生也不用知道"},{"start":857.807,"end":880.411,"text":"不需要啊 因為他申請的是國科會的研究計畫當然我們的委員一定都會看到他的資料至於那個學者要不要公開是他自己來決定我先講一下啦 主委你有你的立場跟看法我的立場跟看法在這邊也表白得很清楚了到底誰的立場有道理"},{"start":881.874,"end":902.131,"text":"全國的學術界所有的學子大家都心裡有一把尺第二個層次的問題他去跟國科會申請申請什麼申請政府資訊公開他選擇不公開嘛但是一般的社會大眾可以按照政府資訊公開法向政府機關申請要公開嘛我昨天問個人資料保護委員會籌備處的主任"},{"start":914.575,"end":928.452,"text":"說這個依照申請為什麼可以不用公開他說這個是資料保存機關意思就是當時的科技部他們所做的決定但我看到有關於"},{"start":931.297,"end":944.675,"text":"政府資訊公開法的規定我已經依照政府資訊公開法跟科技部或者是現在的國會申請要公開拒絕公開是依照政府資訊公開法的哪一條"},{"start":947.984,"end":965.335,"text":"主委你聽得懂我的意思嗎剛剛我上一個層次跟你講的是學術界大家評價的問題現在我跟你回到法規層面的問題法規層面的問題你們當初我後來把公文跟吹哨者要了公文來當時的部長叫吳政宗"},{"start":971.005,"end":999.429,"text":"他說我部分提供限制使用但我不提供他主要學歷的資訊那我看了半天紅框我框起來了這是科技部當初的公文人家依照政府資訊公開法申請了我們的科技部說我們不提供他主要學歷的資訊那我現在問題就來了回到政府資訊公開法不提供主要學歷的資訊他的法規依據是什麼"},{"start":1002.897,"end":1021.857,"text":"如果這個牽涉到國會當初讓學者來填他自己的履歷我們也允許他可以決定哪些要公開哪些不公開我這樣講好了啦如果這個是可以自己決定的事啊我們政府資訊公開法直接丟到垃圾桶裡面去了啦"},{"start":1023.678,"end":1046.192,"text":"政府資訊公開法裡面就會有一款啊說當事人不想公開就不公開啊不是 那你如果說像各自的部分政府也無權幫民眾所以我還要跟你回到法律的部分嘛因為你現在用common sense在跟我講這件事情我很難跟你討論啊所以我們就回到政府資訊公開法你是依照第幾條第幾款的規定不公開"},{"start":1048.066,"end":1073.895,"text":"好 那我 因為我本身不是寫法沒關係 可以可以 來 請請請來 請報告委員 就是如果照政府資訊公開法現在是第18條的第6款其實就是剛剛我們主委提到來來來 我們把第6款唸一下政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一因限制公開或不予提供你剛剛講的第6款來 第6款法條文字我唸給你看"},{"start":1075.686,"end":1089.095,"text":"公開或提供有侵害個人隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表者但對公益有必要不再實現我把法條弄給你看"},{"start":1090.273,"end":1113.604,"text":"我們在討論法律的時候基本上分兩個結構一個結構符不符合本文的規定如果符合本文的規定再看有沒有但書的例外這個很基本啦我先跟你討論主文的規定要求他公開他的學歷是會侵害到他的隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權嗎"},{"start":1115.934,"end":1137.791,"text":"報告委員 就剛剛我們主委提到就是我們剛剛的前提那個問題就是他為什麼可以選擇公開或不公開其實就是因為他的各種學歷會牽涉到個人的隱私隱私嘛 好 沒有關係啦你今天在國會裡面的詢答都會成為立法院公報的記錄那第二個 對公共利益沒有必要嗎"},{"start":1142.292,"end":1153.864,"text":"如果資料可以這樣遮影的話那我簡單這樣講啦我以後提供給國歌會的我愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫啊我愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫啊工作沒有辦法監督啊"},{"start":1154.827,"end":1178.086,"text":"因為我可以選擇不公開啊我跟國會申請國會也不會給我啊沒有人會知道工作沒有辦法監督上面寫的是不是假的嘛報告員不會這樣子啦我們現在如果說像他這樣填報可能與事實不符的話最後他自己還是要負擔這些後果嘛沒有啊他最後什麼後果都沒負擔啊"},{"start":1178.726,"end":1206.283,"text":"你們的學倫大會說他不用負擔任何後果啊我有說錯嗎我們有有請他更正了啦所以呢我們現在國科會跟科技部的標準是被我們抓到以後事後更正就好是這樣嗎委員剛剛講了說那個公眾力的事情那我們的看法可能會不太一樣啊如果說覺得說依照公眾力要公這個我們可以在法庭判決這個我我們國科不是啦我就簡單講啦"},{"start":1208.524,"end":1234.954,"text":"我們目前行政機關對政府資訊公開法的運作保守到令人難以想像是從美國FOIA抄來的抄來以後運作到保守難以想像但是在欺負什麼事情欺負一般的人沒有那個勞力時間費用去跟政府打行政訴訟我簡單講就是這樣啦非常少數的人願意花那個勞力時間費用"},{"start":1237.287,"end":1265.328,"text":"去跟政府打官司 為什麼因為政府打官司 政府的律師誰出錢是納稅人出錢我去跟政府打官司 誰要出錢我自己要出錢這是為什麼我們各自有關於政府資訊公開在行政法院的訴訟案件量那麼低如果因為當事人這樣的這個作為影響到公眾利益有人要來提出訴訟國會一定會配合的啦"},{"start":1266.181,"end":1268.388,"text":"我這樣講好了啦齁 這個是吹哨者"},{"start":1269.298,"end":1291.272,"text":"到處跟你們申請的不會的公文也在那邊了我只拜託主委回去啦好好重新思考一下回去好好重新思考一下因為我們真的在意的是什麼真的在意的是台灣學術界的integrity跟reputation這我同意好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝黃國昌委員質詢官員請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好，我出自學界，申請過國科會計畫，也幫國科會審過計畫，也處理過學術倫理的案子，但我發現這整件事情誇張的程度已經超越我的想像，因為我處理過不管是計畫的審查，還是學倫的案子，我講一句比較直接的，我沒有看過這麼「低路」的啦，我為什麼說沒有看過這麼「低路」的？這件事情發生的時候，我那時候人離開立法院，因為當執業律師，我也比較沒有在關心法學界的事情，結果竟然等到我們這個駐英公使派出去了，整個法學界，我必須老實跟主委講，現在是大爆炸，我為什麼說大爆炸？竟然在自己的學術履歷表上面造假！造假這件事情我當然就有去追，當年這個事情到底是怎麼處理的，怎麼會處理成這個樣子？教育部的部分，我去找教育部，國科會的部分，我覺得事情就要把它講清楚，這幾天我連續在追這個案子，相信主委應該有充分準備了。當初國科會在處理這個案子的時候，法律專業學門，7個委員一致決，說這個違反學術倫理情節重大，結果最後到學倫大會被推翻掉了，主委，這個過程你掌握了沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我了解，當初在國科會的學術倫理委員會裡面討論，我們都是依程序在進行，當然當初不是我負責的，但是依程序進行，委員討論、表決，是沒有到三分之二啦。"],["黃委員國昌：差1票嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就差一點，但是……當然委員也都知道說，他的……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦，7位法律學門的調查小組成員，其中2位還被民進黨提當大法官，這7位在法學界裡面有一定的學術分量，這我相信，7位一致決，被學倫大會給推翻掉，我老實說，我是聞所未聞，我真的聞所未聞，因為這整件事情太離譜了，太曲折了，太離奇了。這7位在法學界可以說是重量級的學者，做出一致的決議，其實這麼簡單的事情，還要7個重量級的法學界的學者做出一致的決議，也沒必要啦，大概問一個大學生就知道了啦，你自己哪所學校畢業的，你不知道？哪個系所畢業的，你不知道？在履歷表上面可以這樣公然造假？但離譜的事情是什麼？離譜的事情是當初的科技部所表達的立場，表示學倫大會認定不成立，沒有達到三分之二，差1票。我簡單問一個問題，在學倫大會裡面，有沒有基本的利益迴避原則？有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：利益迴避原則是所有的審查都一定要遵循……"],["黃委員國昌：一定要遵循的原則嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：當初的學倫大會成員有沒有違反利益迴避原則的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當初就我所知，一定都做過這種審查。"],["黃委員國昌：真的嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一定有，但是這個所謂的審查就是當事人要簽切結書。"],["黃委員國昌：你們的切結書長什麼樣子？不用給我個人寫的切結書，個人的切結書，有簽名的我都尊重，公版的切結書可以給我看嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分我……"],["黃委員國昌：公版的切結書就是空白的，就是沒有簽名那一種嘛，你要切結上述事項：我沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則，那種空白的公版切結書可以給我嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我請我們……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我今天在這邊質詢公開檢舉，裡面有人看不下去，直接跟我投訴，學倫審理委員會裡面的委員有一個律師，怎麼學倫會去找律師來當委員，我也是搞不太清楚，但沒有關係，我尊重你們的篩選。雖然作為一位法律系的教授、中研院的研究員，學倫大會這種level的東西去找律師來當委員，我已經覺得很扯了，結果參與學倫大會的這位律師，他就是那位當事人擔任董事的那家公司的訴訟代理人，知道這件事嗎？可以這樣嗎？","我再簡單的描述一下是什麼法律關係的狀態，這個當事人就是江雅綺，是台電的董事，而學倫大會裡面的委員，而且當初是主導推翻法律學門決議的那個委員，是拿台電的錢，在台電當法律顧問處理訴訟的人，他看到當事人（在學倫大會被指責的人）是他的客戶的董事，國科會是出了什麼事情啊？那個應該是要作為全國學者的表率耶，學術倫理的標竿耶，結果學倫大會去找了一個被評判者當董事的公司的訴訟代理人來，這個有沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則？請教主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們國科會訂定的學術倫理審查委員需要迴避的相關原則，當初應該都是非常明確。我請我們的主秘來說明，他現在兼研究誠信辦公室召集人。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請回答。"],["林主任秘書廣宏：報告委員，我們的學倫審議要點第十七點有規定要迴避的相關情形，但是委員剛剛提到那個資訊，我們那時候沒有獲得這樣一個資訊。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有獲得這樣的資訊？奇怪了！那位學倫委員當哪一家公司的訴訟代理人，他自己不知道喔！我的當事人是誰，我不知道，然後江雅綺在台電當董事，我也不知道，可以這樣混喔？可以這樣搞喔？這丟臉啦！把當初科技部的臉都丟光了！我這幾天收到多少以前法學界的朋友傳給我的訊息，說怎麼會扯成這個樣子，找一個訴訟代理人來，領錢的訴訟代理人，去推翻7位法學教授所做違反學倫的認定，主委，這件事不需要檢討嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果有違反學術倫理的事情，有明確的證據，我們當然也許要再檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在是給你時間啦，我本來以為你已經準備的很充足了，顯然還沒有掌握全部的狀況嘛，你說要再回去調查，OK，我給你時間，需要多久？不要跟我說要三個月喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：再一個月好了。"],["黃委員國昌：蛤？還要一個月喔，兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一個月好了啦，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：好，一個月，反正立法院延會啦，我給你一個月，今年夏天我等著你，這件事情我一定會追到底，我現在雖然已經沒有在法學界了，但出現這種荒腔走板、離譜至極的事情，我一定會追究責任到底。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：之前科技部知道這個事情馬蜂窩捅大了，你知道發生什麼事嗎？發生的事情是學倫大會沒有遵守利益關係迴避的原則，推翻了法律專業學門，由召集人自己召集的調查小組的決議，結果跑出來找綠媒特意幫他洗地，說他被污指是涉假，他哪有被污指涉假，他從頭到尾都是假的啦！不是有這種護航的事情出來，大學生都有辦法判斷，結果學倫大會掩飾成這個樣子、護航成這個樣子，還讓人家出來說：哇，科技部還我清白啦！結果那時候的科技部部長看到後覺得茲事體大，看到這個新聞出來了以後趕快發一個聲明說沒有、沒有、沒有，這個學歷是造假的，斲傷學術聲譽、可能影響學術資源分配的公正性，事後趕快發聲明稿。看了科技部後來發的那個聲明稿，我不曉得是可笑還是可悲，連科技部自己都知道有問題，趕快發一個聲明出來洗地。當初的錯誤一直延續到今天，有一些是總統府該負的責任，總統府副秘書長跟我說，他們會回去處理，給我一個回復，我到目前為止沒有接到回復；有一些是教育部該處理的，我昨天已經質詢了，教育部部長會回去處理；有一些是國科會作為接任科技部業務的主管機關，我知道不是在您任內發生的，但是這件事情一定要處理。","順便講第二個層次，從這個個案裡面我所看到的抽象性的問題，什麼叫抽象性的問題？主委，我簡單花一點時間跟你解釋。當初這個吹哨者要檢舉這整件事情的時候，想要確認這個人交給科技部的那個履歷表上面也造假，因為他看到在大學端申請的資料是假的，他想要確認科技部上的資料是不是也是假的，所以就要去找這個人給科技部的資料。在科技部的資料裡，科技部有提供所有計畫申請人一個選項，就是你可以選擇不要公開個人資料的主要學歷。我其實有一點看不太懂，科技部讓國科會計畫的申請人可以拒絕公開自己最高學歷的理由是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我完全沒辦法想像！"],["吳主任委員誠文：第一，我們尊重所有的學者要不要公開，包含電話號碼等個資……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，先停一下！電話號碼、住址要不要公開，這個我覺得都要尊重，這個沒有問題啊，但是主要最高學歷是他的credential，是他的credential耶！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，學歷……"],["黃委員國昌：我今天如果請教主委你的最高學歷，你會跟我說這個是你的隱私嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，學歷在學者公開的時候，他畢業的到底是博士、碩士還是學士，還有他畢業的學校……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是！"],["吳主任委員誠文：有時候是這樣，我們也同意，他不見得會公布到他畢業的院系所，不見得啦……"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是我的問題嘛，你要來拿國家的資源，然後你要展示你的最高學歷是什麼，這個到底會侵害到什麼權益，我聽不懂啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是啦，學者公開的時候，他不見得會寫畢業的系所，學校一定會寫啦，博士、碩士、學士學位這一定會寫……"],["黃委員國昌：你說學校一定會寫嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：一定會寫學校嘛，哪個學校畢業一定要寫嘛，不然這個……"],["黃委員國昌：主委，您是學界出身的嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是學界出身，所以這算是很普遍的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你應該很熟嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我很熟。"],["黃委員國昌：你有審過任何的application沒有提供最高學歷是什麼的嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：審查委員一定看得到啦！但是公開給大眾的不見得……"],["黃委員國昌：審查委員一定看得到，其他社會大眾不用知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不一定啊，不一定要知道。"],["黃委員國昌：學生也不用知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不需要啊，因為他申請的是國科會的研究計畫，當然我們的委員一定都會看到他的資料，至於那個學者要不要公開是他自己來決定。"],["黃委員國昌：我先講一下啦，主委，你有你的立場跟看法，我的立場跟看法在這邊也表白得很清楚了，到底誰的立場有道理，全國的學術界、所有的學子，大家都心裡有一把尺。","第二個層次的問題，他去跟國科會申請，申請什麼？申請政府資訊公開，這個人選擇不公開，但是一般的社會大眾可以按照政府資訊公開法向政府機關申請要公開，我昨天問個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任，這個依照申請，為什麼可以不用公開？他說這個是資料保存機關，意思就是當時的科技部他們所做的決定，但我看到有關於政府資訊公開法的規定，我已經依照政府資訊公開法跟科技部或者是現在的國科會申請要公開，拒絕公開是依照政府資訊公開法的哪一條？主委，你聽得懂我的意思嗎？剛剛我上一個層次跟你講的是學術界大家評價的問題，現在我跟你回到法規層面的問題，我後來跟吹哨者要了公文，當時的部長叫吳政忠，他說部分提供限制使用，但不提供他「主要學歷」的資訊。我看了半天，我用紅框匡起來了，這是科技部當初的公文，人家依照政府資訊公開法申請，而我們的科技部說不提供他「主要學歷」的資訊。現在問題就來了，回到政府資訊公開法，不提供「主要學歷」的資訊的法規依據是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果這個牽涉到國科會當初讓學者來填他自己的履歷，我們也允許他可以決定哪些要公開、哪些不公開，如果他……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，如果這個是可以自己決定的事，那我們政府資訊公開法可以直接丟到垃圾桶裡面去，政府資訊公開法裡面就會有一款說當事人不想公開就不公開。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，如果說像個資的部分，政府也無權幫民眾公開……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才跟你回到法律的部分嘛，因為你現在用common sense在跟我講這件事情我很難跟你討論，所以我們就回到政府資訊公開法，你是依照第幾條、第幾款的規定不公開？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為我本身不是學法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，可以、可以，請。"],["張執行秘書益榮：報告委員，如果照政府資訊公開法第十八條第六款，其實就是剛剛我們主委提到……"],["黃委員國昌：我把第六款念一下，政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一者，應限制公開或不予提供，你剛剛講了第六款，第六款的法條文字我念給你聽，公開或提供有侵害個人隱私、職業上秘密或著作權人之公開發表權者。但對公益有必要，不在此限。我把法條弄給你看，我們在討論法律的時候，基本上分兩個結構，一個結構是符不符合本文的規定，如果符合本文的規定，再看有沒有但書的例外，這個很基本啦！我先跟你討論主文的規定，要求他公開他的學歷是會侵害到他的隱私、職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權嗎？"],["張執行秘書益榮：報告委員，剛剛我們主委提到的就是我們剛剛的前提，那個問題就是他為什麼可以選擇公開或不公開？其實就是因為他的各種學歷會牽涉到個人的隱私。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！你今天在國會裡面的詢答都會成為立法院公報的紀錄。第二個，對公共利益沒有必要嗎？"],["張執行秘書益榮：這就是我們必須要去……"],["黃委員國昌：如果資料可以這樣遮隱的話，那我簡單這樣講，我以後提供給國科會的，我愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫，公眾沒有辦法監督啊！因為我可以選擇不公開，我跟國科會申請，國科會也不會給我，沒有人會知道，公眾沒有辦法監督上面寫的是不是假的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，不會這樣子，像他這樣填報可能與事實不符的話，最後他自己還是要負擔這些後果。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊，他最後什麼後果都沒負擔啊！你們的學倫大會說他不用負擔任何後果，我有說錯嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有請他更正了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？現在國科會跟科技部的標準是你隨便寫寫沒關係，被我們抓到以後事後更正就好，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是啦，委員剛剛講了公眾利益的事情，我們的看法可能會不太一樣，如果覺得依照公眾利益要公開，這個我們可以在法庭判決，我們國科會……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，我就簡單講，目前行政機關對於政府資訊公開法的運作保守到令人難以想像！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們一定要維……"],["黃委員國昌：是從美國FOIA抄來的，抄來以後運作到保守得難以想像，但是在欺負什麼事情？欺負一般的人，他們沒有那個勞力、時間、費用去跟政府打行政訴訟，我簡單講就是這樣啦，非常少數的人願意花那個勞力、時間、費用去跟政府打官司，為什麼？因為政府打官司，政府的律師誰出錢？是納稅人出錢，我去跟政府打官司，誰要出錢？我自己要出錢，這是為什麼我們個資有關於政府資訊公開在行政法院的訴訟案件量那麼低。"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果因為當事人這樣的作為影響到公眾利益，有人要提出訴訟，國科會一定會配合。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，這個是吹哨者當初跟你們申請，駁回的公文也在那邊，我只拜託主委回去好好重新思考一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我們真的在意的是什麼？真的在意的是臺灣學術界的integrity跟reputation。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這我同意。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員質詢，官員請回座。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另有謝龍介委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天會議作如下決議：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc12e3b463d57c7297b1219069fb8f2289fda0d00f0d43ae55594876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:32:17 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落實"},{"start":46.093,"end":68.689,"text":"CRPD就是台灣所簽署的身心障礙權利公約的合理調整的精神那我今年3月就是你們就在回應我3月的這個預算案那我之前也有質詢過那你們的報告有講到申請機構得依實際需要於計劃申請書提列無障礙措施經費需求獲得國科會補助的研討會得於合併總金額內調配使用然後"},{"start":75.154,"end":91.982,"text":"那一切看起來很合理喔那但是我就發現說其實你們這個辦法是修正你們這個補助作業要點的第八點嘛那原本就有托兒服務這個是原本就有的對不對現在我們只是新增加也可以申請無障礙措施"},{"start":92.842,"end":105.206,"text":"那我想請問主委那原本就有的托兒服務你們用這個方式來讓大家結果效果如何譬如一年會有幾場研討會有申請這個主委知道嗎抱歉我請李處長來回答這位是我們科國處處長好 處長好那請問你知道一年有幾場研討會有依照你們這個第八點的規定來申請托兒服務嗎"},{"start":122.324,"end":137.44,"text":"全國應該說我們這個要點是2月20號修正之後呢我們到現在有26個案子進來所以我們在審查那我們也會這個托兒服務是這次才有的還是以前就有我記得以前就有耶"},{"start":138.689,"end":158.36,"text":"托兒服務我現在講的不是無障礙那個幫忙補充一下就是說托兒服務他是在研討會申請補助的時候那個經費裡面可以用在托兒服務那我們目前應該沒有這個統計沒有這個統計就是說實際上有用托兒服務的統計但是我們有研討會的"},{"start":165.003,"end":167.687,"text":"那這個就是報資可以啦但是你們現在並不知道全國的一年大概有幾場學術研討會是有申請到你們這個經費的全國"},{"start":181.243,"end":201.384,"text":"這個我們經費合了以後,它有沒有使用這個我們...不是,我說全國你們會合發多少場學術研討會的經...我們不要講經費數,而幾場你們有沒有這個大概的數字?幾場?一年譬如說是兩百場還是一千場還是...沒有概念喔?"},{"start":203.791,"end":222.759,"text":"可能幾十場一年只有幾十場研討會是申請到國科會的經費補助因為我們補助的都是比較大型的大型的所以幾十場當中並沒有統計有多少場確實執行出有多兒服務 並不知道對不對處長都不知道"},{"start":228.747,"end":237.092,"text":"柯國樹補助的是國際研討會對 國際研討會就是大型的國際研討會是 是這個大概一年大概幾十場幾十場所以這個第八點這個只有限國際研討會對不對然後幾十場不知道有沒有拖額"},{"start":245.017,"end":250.919,"text":"那我為什麼要問這個問題就現在你不知道有沒有拖額未來你也不會知道有沒有無障礙最後這個政策就好像十年前我記得我進學術界已經不止十年了當時女學會就在推動那你們已經很有善的列了這個了可是因為你不關心它也不關心它好不好用最後就會變成大部分的研討會就是沒有所以無障礙也會變成是一樣的狀況"},{"start":272.646,"end":276.069,"text":"然後說大家可以來申請可是這不是只有錢耶這個也很辛苦麻煩的事情你要托兒就要去找保母或是托育員對不對要有場地要安全無障礙措施也不是有錢就能解決的因為對辦研討會來講是增加不少負擔耶"},{"start":291.061,"end":303.095,"text":"所以主委我想問一下說如果你們真的要符合CRPD你要有個推動計劃嘛不是改一下這個規定然後也沒有關心過去這個已經有的托兒服務到底有沒有人申請他們遇到什麼困難我這樣講沒錯吧沒錯沒錯謝謝委員提醒好我請柯國柱"},{"start":310.04,"end":332.228,"text":"所以要有個句話你的理想是假如一年有30場國際研討會幾年之內這30場只要有一個與會者是深藏者他的需求都能被滿足你的主委您覺得以我們台灣的學術實力跟我們的經濟實力大概幾年內應該要做到大型國際研討會都要有您的理想是幾年我們有理想之後再來落實嘛"},{"start":339.144,"end":366.564,"text":"我的理想當然越快越好 因為這個是但是我知道無法一蹴可擊對不對有時候還牽扯到我們場地的選擇當然當然當然所以你就要提供足夠的支持嘛 對不對那至少我們先限定就是說有這樣的與會者他就要有公平參與的權利我們先讓他能夠顯現出效果對 那主委我們假設主委您當主委已經多久了"},{"start":368.065,"end":394.742,"text":"一年嘛我們假設啦當然我們希望說您做得很好繼續連任假設就是說三年的話三年內看看有沒有機會你說全部嗎一年二年三年對啊全部我是擔心那個場地全部擔心場地會有問題因為我們國際研討會有時候會辦在全國各地就辦在一個沒辦法做到無障礙的場地"},{"start":395.643,"end":417.448,"text":"那三年內你不要百分之百好了百分之七十五這樣可以嗎百分之五十三年百分之五十我真的覺得很辛苦啦我每次都要說陳俊翰律師他如果要參加研討會可能有一半的他沒有辦法參加到那希望那些沒有跟他法律他興趣身上權益有關的"},{"start":419.048,"end":442.661,"text":"百分之五十真的是低標但是我想主委就是講到就會做到那你要把那個就是說方法講出來你的誘因是什麼對不對我們當然一開始不是讓大家主動來做那你要給他足夠的誘因他才會做嘛他辦個國際研討會已經很辛苦了對不對好我們努力好那就三年做到一半的國際研討會能夠符合CRPD好那還有一點時間就是下一題"},{"start":450.614,"end":476.266,"text":"下一題我知道這個也是高難度啦我真的是接到我們學術界就是的學者他覺得我們的學術資源整合的部分就是沒有辦法做到日本的水平那他有給我看日本做的真的非常的友善那他覺得我們全國各單位教育部也做國科會也做就是說"},{"start":477.046,"end":494.102,"text":"國家圖書館也做大家各自做然後平台之間沒有整合然後花了很多的錢可是沒有一個最好的全國性的學術資源整合入口網站那你們給我回的東西我看了很久覺得這個就是說非常的複雜"},{"start":497.005,"end":520.835,"text":"日本會在釋法的情形下會尋求與國內既有整合入口網站串聯開放請問主委這個釋法是釋哪個法可不可以告訴我我找不到哪一個法跟這個圖書館入口網站整合有關跟委員報告就是有那個圖書館法那國家圖書館依照圖書館法所以他們就是會建置已經有建置的這樣的一個網站那他們如果不夠好呢"},{"start":523.916,"end":527.998,"text":"所以是圖書館法意思就是說圖書館是歸教育部管是教育部要給錢然後不是你們的事嗎是這樣嗎我們沒有說不是我們的事因為是說我們有跟國家圖書館這邊我們去研究了這個相關的法令的規定然後也目前的一些網站的一個建制的情形然後我們有跟國圖這邊來做一個溝通"},{"start":547.008,"end":573.653,"text":"已經跟他們溝通過了嗎坐下來討論怎麼整合因為很多的論文國圖不可能收國外的期刊論文嘛對不對可是我們每個學者像我過去申請的時候我只要在國外出版的我都會把那個檔案給你們因為你們要審查嘛所以其實你們擁有最多的只要是台灣學者得到國科會的資源的都會列出來給你檔案那他是不是這樣的東西是不是只有國科會這裡會有"},{"start":575.513,"end":582.955,"text":"所以這個部分我們可能我們還會持續在跟國圖這邊來做溝通然後另外是我們在建制那個TOAJ就是有關開放取用的這個部分那我們也是希望可以跟國圖這邊來做一個介接跟結合這樣那這個部分是不是我們也在持續在跟國圖這邊做溝通跟尋求那個協助然後是不是有可能這個會後我們再跟委員這邊辦公室聯繫再跟你做這樣充分的說明"},{"start":604.301,"end":623.358,"text":"好那請問你知道我講的那個日本的那個學術入口的網站的名稱嗎是就是那個Sini對Sini不知道主委知不知道這個平台日本的那主委有空可以看一下我是希望主委能夠做這個對全國民眾現在高中生都在寫就是報告了如果不要他用chatGPT的話"},{"start":624.7,"end":634.208,"text":"我們主委很擔心那就要讓他知道找資料是很容易的對不對不是東找一個西找一個然後各資料都不完整我覺得日本那個應該是我們的標杆主委可以全力協助嗎我們再參考看看如果教育部這邊需要我們來協調的話我們非常的樂意好不好"},{"start":643.236,"end":668.291,"text":"希望國科會擁有這麼多的學術期刊的資源主要是因為全國的學者有在做研究都會跟你們申請經費所以你們會連我們收不到的英文期刊的網站你都至少會有我們國內學者的文章在你們的檔案中那這些應該可以開放你也可以透過一個方式來設計因為都是國科會的資源在支持的這樣沒問題吧"},{"start":669.392,"end":670.233,"text":"多久內可以給我一個初步的報告好嗎"},{"start":682.158,"end":709.506,"text":"那個委員是不是我們先到委員辦公室這邊來做一個比較就是具體的那個說明那我們再來其實你們的那個寫中報告已經寫得很仔細了我們現在就希望你們更積極的行動讓主委知道給你足夠的支持然後你們去跟國圖協調好不好還有中央研究院我都有跟他們講過了他們都會往這個方向努力是不是再給我們三個月的時間三個月好那就三個月好謝謝主委加油謝謝"},{"start":711.895,"end":712.216,"text":"謝謝范雲委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時32分）謝謝召委。有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委備質詢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：主委午安。雖然我有兩個預算案，但我們全力支持國科會的發展，所以都同意解凍。我這兩個案子一個跟無障礙有關，一個跟學術資源整合入口網站有關，在此我想更深入地跟主委討論。","你們在報告中提到，一切尊重落實CRPD，也就是臺灣所簽署的身心障礙權利公約合理調整的精神。在今年3月，你們有回應我的預算案，之前我也有質詢過。你們在報告講到，申請機構得依實際需要於計畫申請書提列無障礙措施經費需求，獲得國科會補助的研討會得於核定總金額內調配使用。一切看起來很合理，但我發現你們所謂的辦法是修正補助作業要點的第八點，且原本就有托兒服務，這是原本就有的，對不對？現在則是新增加可以申請無障礙措施，請問主委，原本就有的托兒服務，你們用這個方式來讓大家申請，請問效果如何？譬如一年會有幾場研討會申請？主委知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，我請李處長說明。"],["范委員雲：好，這位是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：科國處處長。"],["范委員雲：處長好。請問你知道一年全國有幾場研討會是依照你們的第八點規定來申請托兒服務嗎？"],["李處長旺龍：這個要點在2月20號修正，到現在有26個案子進來，我們在審查……"],["范委員雲：托兒服務是這次才有的，還是以前就有？我記得以前就有托兒服務！我現在講的不是無障礙！"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：補充說明，托兒服務是在研討會申請補助時，該筆經費可以用在托兒服務，但我們目前沒有相關統計。"],["范委員雲：沒有統計？"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：沒有實際上使用托兒服務的統計，但我們有研討會補助的場次統計。"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以報支。"],["范委員雲：但你們現在並不知道全國一年大概有幾場學術研討會有申請到你們的經費補助？"],["吳主任委員誠文：經費核定以後，有沒有使用我們沒有統計。"],["范委員雲：不是，我是說全國你們會核發多少場學術研討會的經費？我們不要講經費數，你們對於幾場有沒有一個大概的數字？譬如一年是兩百場還是一千場？還是沒有概念？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能幾十場……"],["范委員雲：一年只有幾十場研討會有申請到國科會的經費補助？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，因為我們補助的都是比較大型的。"],["范委員雲：大型的？所以在這幾十場當中，並沒有統計有多少場確實執行托兒服務？你們並不知道，對不對？連處長都不知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：科國處補助的是國際研討會。"],["范委員雲：對，就是大型的國際研討會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這種的一年大概幾十場。"],["范委員雲：幾十場？所以第八點只限於大型的國際研討會，對不對？然後不知道這幾十場有沒有申請托兒服務？我為什麼要問這個問題？因為如果你現在不知道有沒有托兒服務的話，那麼未來你也不會知道有沒有無障礙服務，最後這個政策就好像……我進學術界已經不只十年，當時女學會就在推動托兒服務，你們也友善地列出這項，可是因為你不關心，也不知道好不好用，最後就會變成大部分的研討會都沒有申請！"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員……"],["范委員雲：所以無障礙服務也會變成一樣的狀況！雖然說大家可以來申請，可是這並不是只有錢的問題，這是很辛苦、很麻煩的事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員……"],["范委員雲：要托兒就要去找保母或托育員，對不對？既要場地，也要安全，相同的，無障礙措施也不是有錢就能解決的，況且對辦研討會來講，這會增加不少負擔。所以我想請問主委，如果你們真的要符合CRPD規定，就要有推動計畫，不是只改一下規定，然後也不關心過去已經有的托兒服務到底沒有人申請？他們遇到什麼困難？我這樣講沒錯吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒錯、沒錯，謝謝委員提醒。科國處接下來……"],["范委員雲：所以要有計畫，假如你的理想是一年有三十場國際研討會，且在幾年之內這三十場裡只要有一個與會者是身障者，其需求都能被滿足。主委，以臺灣的學術實力跟經濟實力，大概幾年內可以做到大型國際研討會都會有？您的理想是幾年？有理想之後再來落實嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的理想當然是越快越好，因為這是正面的……"],["范委員雲：越快越好？但我知道這無法一蹴可幾，對不對？總要有個過程。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有時候還牽涉到場地的選擇。"],["范委員雲：當然，所以你要提供足夠的支持，對不對？至少我們可以先限定讓這樣的與會者有公平參與的權利……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們先讓效果能顯現出來，我會請科國處來努力。"],["范委員雲：您當主委已經多久了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一年了。"],["范委員雲：一年？當然，我們希望您做得很好，可以繼續連任。假設三年的話，在三年內？"],["吳主任委員誠文：看看……"],["范委員雲：有沒有機會？一年？二年？三年？"],["吳主任委員誠文：全部嗎？"],["范委員雲：對！"],["吳主任委員誠文：全部的話我擔心場地……"],["范委員雲：全部的話擔心場地會有問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為國際研討會有時候會辦在全國各地……"],["范委員雲：就辦在一個沒辦法做到無障礙的場地？三年內不要100%好了，75%可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：50%，我們試試看。"],["范委員雲：三年50%？我真的覺得很辛苦，我每次都說陳俊翰律師如果要參加研討會，可能有一半的研討會他會沒有辦法參加，希望那些不是跟他興趣、跟法律或身障權益有關的，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會來……"],["范委員雲：50%真的是低標，但主委講到就會做到……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我努力。"],["范委員雲：你要把方法講出來、你的誘因是什麼，對不對？一開始沒辦法讓大家主動來做，所以要給足夠的誘因才會做，況且辦國際研討會已經很辛苦了，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們努力、我們努力。"],["范委員雲：所以三年做到一半的國際研討會符合CRPD的規定。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝范委員。"],["范委員雲：還有一點時間，繼續下一題。我知道這個也是高難度，但我真的是接到學術界學者的反映，他覺得我們學術資源整合的部分沒有辦法做到日本的水平，他有給我看日本做得真的非常友善，他覺得我們全國各單位，教育部也做，國科會也做，國家圖書館也做，大家各自做，然後平臺之間沒有整合，雖然花了很多錢，可是並沒有一個最好的全國性的學術資源整合入口網站。關於你們回給我的東西，我看了很久，我覺得這個真的非常複雜，你們說「本會在適法的情形下，會尋求與國內藉由整合入口網站串聯開放」，請問主委，這個適法是適哪個法？可不可以告訴我，我找不到哪一個法跟這個圖書館入口網站整合有關耶。"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：跟委員報告，主要是圖書館法，國家圖書館依照圖書館法的規定，已經有建置這樣的網站，也結合了……"],["范委員雲：他們的網站如果不夠好呢？所以是圖書館法，意思就是說，圖書館是歸教育部管，是教育部要給錢，然後不是你們的事，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：我們沒有說不是我們的事，而是說我們有跟國家圖書館這邊溝通，研究了相關法令的規定，針對目前網站建置的情形，我們有跟國圖這邊溝通……"],["范委員雲：已經跟他們溝通過了，坐下來討論怎麼整合嗎？因為很多的論文，國圖不可能收國外的期刊論文，對不對？可是我們每個學者，像我過去申請的時候，只要是在國外出版的，我都會把檔案給你們，因為你們要審查，所以其實你們是擁有最多的，只要是臺灣學者得到國科會資源的，都會列出檔案給你，這樣的東西是不是只有國科會這裡會有？"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：這個部分我們還會持續再跟國圖溝通，另外是我們在建置TOAJ，就是有關開放取用的部分，我們也是希望可以跟國圖這邊來做介接跟結合，所以這個部分是不是讓我們再持續跟國圖這邊溝通跟尋求協助，是不是有可能會後我們再跟委員辦公室聯繫，再跟您做充分的說明？"],["范委員雲：好，請問你知道我講的那個日本學術入口網站的名稱嗎？"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：是，就是CiNi。"],["范委員雲：對，CiNi，不知道主委知不知道日本的這個平臺？主委有空可以看一下，我是希望主委能夠做這個，因為對全國民眾……現在高中生都在寫報告了，如果不要他用ChatGPT的話，主委很擔心AI，那就要讓他知道找資料是很容易的，對不對？不是東找一個、西找一個，然後各個資料都不完整，我覺得日本那個應該是我們的標竿，主委可以全力協助嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們再參考看看。"],["范委員雲：如果教育部這邊需要我們來協調的話，我們非常的樂意，好不好？國科會擁有這麼多學術期刊的資源，主要是因為全國的學者有在做研究的都會跟你們申請經費，所以會連我們收不到的英文期刊網站，你們都至少會有我們國內學者的文章在你們的檔案中，這些應該可以開放，你也可以透過一個方式來設計，因為都是國科會的資源在支持的，這樣沒問題吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們努力朝這個方向做。"],["范委員雲：好，那我會繼續監督，謝謝。這個部分，是不是在多久內可以給我一個初步的報告好嗎？"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：委員，是不是我們先到委員辦公室這邊來做一個比較具體的說明，然後再來提供解決報告？"],["范委員雲：其實你們的報告已經寫得很仔細了，我們現在就希望你們更積極的行動，讓主委知道要給你足夠的支持，然後你們去跟國圖協調，好不好？還有中央研究院，我都有跟他們講過了，他們都會往這個方向努力。"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：是不是再給我們3個月的時間？"],["范委員雲：3個月？好，那就3個月。"],["鄭副處長瓊芬：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：OK，謝謝主委，加油！"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來，我們請蔡易餘委員質詢，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來我們有請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc192093164a2df2ba3fa28f537c7c67977da0d00f0d43ae5558a4d4e9809745efa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:13:18 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謝謝林昭偉 我們請林主任委員好 應運會的林主委胡委員早早好 主委其實我想今天早上很多委員都跟本席的今天的質詢的一個重點差不多一樣重點是在於我們都期待等一下封面 謝謝我們都期待運安會不只是一個事故後調查的獨立單位"},{"start":29.273,"end":52.271,"text":"在運安會的執掌裡面更應該強化有關全台灣的交通運輸的一個安全或者是其他專業上的專案延期建議這個我記得在運安會當時候成立以及成立週年的時候我也在這個地方在交通委員會曾經就美國"},{"start":53.639,"end":78.625,"text":"國家運輸安全委員會他們的職長他們的做法他們的有為到底是怎麼樣來提醒我們運安會也應該要做什麼我不知道主委還記得嗎是我知道你知道嘛對不對我不希望再過今年明年我同樣還要用這樣子的一個"},{"start":80.77,"end":109.19,"text":"標題啊 為什麼因為大家對運安會的期待啊你常常會跟我們說不是啊你們通過的這個法跟我們成立的宗旨成立的這個目的跟成立現在的組織架構就是不一樣這個我覺得都是推脫改第一頁今天很多委員都在談這個三峽重大車禍造成嚴重的死傷網路謠言士氣是在於我們到目前為止還不知道真正的發生事故的原因"},{"start":109.99,"end":116.278,"text":"還有專業上到底誰可以給我們一個真相那當然我們也非常"},{"start":117.661,"end":139.955,"text":"肯定看到立案會願意主動來立案調查因為你們的調查事故的專業那會讓國人信服在信服中間還必須要是你們的調查報告是夠專業是夠取信於民而且是能夠提出真正的一個建議如何的來改善"},{"start":140.896,"end":157.371,"text":"接著我們目前看到國人都期待我們交通安全最重要人身安全最重要所以都期待運安會在事後調查之外阻掉延期運輸安全就我剛才一開始講的"},{"start":158.84,"end":184.962,"text":"主委這個現在呢剛剛我講的新北的三峽你立案要調查檢調單位現在也在調查就是司法體系也在調查我先問一個問題主委你曾經提過你跟司法單位有保持聯繫那提供專業的協助那你所謂的保持聯繫提供專業的協助是什麼部分"},{"start":185.7,"end":196.554,"text":"最主要是那個行車電腦EDR那個就是很專業必須用特殊的儀器把它解出來所以你提供特殊的儀器來提供檢調單位來做解析"},{"start":197.296,"end":222.524,"text":"對 我們現在資料有跟他互通有誤 還在解還在解因為他那個車子撞了之後有一些就是等於是說故障作用那你解要多久的時間 以你的專業為什麼要問這個問題因為這牽涉到調查的進度也提供給檢調希望能夠有一個初步的調查結果才能夠"},{"start":223.945,"end":238.584,"text":"歸咎責任的歸屬嘛我們這個三峽這個案子我們下個月就會有一個初步報告然後10月份會有一個事實資料報告然後明年1月大概草案就會出來明年5月會最終報告不是我的意思是說剛剛來來來你這是兩碼之事喔"},{"start":241.748,"end":269.188,"text":"第一件事我剛剛的問題是你說有跟現在的司法檢調單位保持橫向聯繫你說你提供專業的去解析他的ERD那這個專業的這個東西什麼時候你可以解析完畢我剛剛還沒報告完下個月的初步報告裡面就會有EDR的資料會解出來所以你的意思是說檢調單位要等到下個月你的初步的調查報告出來"},{"start":270.216,"end":275.278,"text":"所以你的一定要的參數要解析出來就是下個月的這個時候會跟檢調的調查跟你們的調查報告是同步"},{"start":290.266,"end":311.261,"text":"你剛剛是這樣子講嘛我為什麼這樣問因為這牽涉到是我們多久可以等得到初步的調查報告或是初步的事故發生的原因初步報告是下個月會出來的對啊那因為你剛剛講你跟檢調單位都在保持聯繫啊是不是"},{"start":312.262,"end":328.084,"text":"我的意思是這個牽涉到我們多久需要等多久才能夠知道事故下一頁所以我在講除了事後的調查之外主要的一個運輸安全問題也可以主動研析就像剛剛很多委員提到的"},{"start":328.544,"end":350.404,"text":"全台灣各大重要的交通事故在公路系統方面我們有沒有收集數據有沒有來進行研析譬如說新北三峽是一個重大的交通事故那上個月台中的向上路也發生了重大的交通事故而這一個算不算在你的未來"},{"start":351.505,"end":360.066,"text":"因為你之前沒有立案那未來在你的公路系統的交通運輸的安全的延期裡面可不可以"},{"start":361.38,"end":383.933,"text":"全台灣各大公路系統的交通重大事故我們能夠來做一個盤點研析來告訴我們我們有可以有什麼樣的改善譬如說台中的向上路這一段經常發生車禍又是為什麼可以在你的報告裡面來呈現有沒有這個可能性可以做嗎 主委我跟委員報告每一年交通部大安會跟運營所"},{"start":388.556,"end":415.661,"text":"他們都會 他們有個進度檢測專案小組會對全國各熱點幾個很容易發生重大因素失誤的可是我們現在看不到 你說在大外匯報裡面會有這個東西可是我們現在看不到運安會對這些已經經常發生事故的一個交通熱點到底有什麼樣的建議跟作為啊所以這個案子咧 我們準備要來召集一個會議召集交通部相關器官我現在問你才說 我現在要來召集一個會議喔"},{"start":416.67,"end":427.858,"text":"不是我們要把這個案子拿出來到底這個路段為什麼會常常發生錯誤主委我現在的重點是在於不是因為我問了你才要說我要來召開一個會議來研究解析我現在是說應該運安會的功能在你的職長在法規的要求之下本來就對於交通運輸安全的一個專案研究解析跟提供改善意見嘛"},{"start":441.407,"end":467.394,"text":"那全台灣有那麼多的一個交通的重大事故那你剛剛也提到道安匯報都會提供全國各縣市的一個交通意外事故的熱點那病安會的高度應該在全台灣的公路系統為什麼會有這些的重大的一個交通事故的熱點你明明可以掌握那這些數據掌握了之後你有沒有進一步的去研究為什麼"},{"start":468.354,"end":481.084,"text":"如果有進一步的去研究為什麼找出原因可以來提供給各個該全責單位可以去進行改善的因為這個現在已經在做了啊現在在做為什麼看不到啊因為"},{"start":483.946,"end":489.832,"text":"因為交通部單位我看不到你們在做什麼啊就是國人因為看不到你們在做什麼所以都對你們這個單位獨立機構的存在覺得無感啊不是因為現在交通部單位跟運營所他們已經在做每一年都在做啊每一年都在做但是呢我建議的是"},{"start":504.679,"end":517.997,"text":"除了運營所我們也看不到那如果我們的定安會也覺得這不是你的業務範圍不要在你的公路系統的一個交通運輸安全的一個研析立案來專案研究來盤點全台灣"},{"start":521.823,"end":538.784,"text":"主委你會繼續的無感存在啊我們可以把它做一個立案為什麼要這麼說在下一頁我在上一次4月17號有質詢過一個民生大家關注的議題行動電源起火國際案例頻傳影響非安"},{"start":541.38,"end":554.994,"text":"我以這個為例給你質詢找出問題希望你能夠延期你給我回了一個書面資料說我成立研究小組然後我會行文給要資料然後呢就這樣就沒了就沒了"},{"start":558.462,"end":572.056,"text":"就沒了 你知道行動電源起火影響飛安甚至在高鐵上行動電源起火引起大家的恐慌這件事對人民的交通安全是多重要你有把人民的擔心放在心上嗎"},{"start":580.438,"end":599.165,"text":"沒有啊 你就給我一頁A4的報告而已啊 然後也沒寫進度啊我希望我可以看到進度行動電源為什麼起火 在飛機上起火又為什麼 那該怎麼辦在鐵道上面行動電源起火又該怎麼辦這個人民期待的是運安會可以給一個"},{"start":607.574,"end":612.411,"text":"解析專案研究找出問題給改善建議"},{"start":614.395,"end":639.873,"text":"讓人民安心啊這是我們認為你該更積極的部分嘛我再舉最後一個例子30秒你們自己運安會上面的網站上面就有所謂的這個志願調查系統裡面有國外的一個資訊我馬上上網去連結連結到是英國的運安的一個志願調查系統那他們呢這個"},{"start":644.403,"end":650.135,"text":"就在我的Ciras這是從你們網站上去連結的喔你們有提供這個連結喔"},{"start":652.386,"end":678.102,"text":"那你們認為這個連結是我們這個運安會裡面也有一個運輸安全志願報告系統剛剛很多委員都提到那你們也給我一個國際連結叫英國也有這樣子的系統可是你看看人家英國怎麼做英國光是我只是出錢用數據因為我沒時間啦光是一個今年四月份就提出九件的結案報告"},{"start":679.707,"end":684.752,"text":"你知道在你們的運安會的運安志願報告系統裡面幾件嗎?沒半件啦你們的報告內容還停到你們的公開資訊還在2024的8月2號啦還在去年的8月啦"},{"start":702.148,"end":715.353,"text":"人家英國你們自己連結的國際的一個運安的志願報告系統人家英國已經到2025的4月那光是4月就有9件還是結案的報告那我們自己運安會自己的運輸安全志願報告系統你一點進去還在去年的8月而且去年的8月就只有一件"},{"start":733.797,"end":753.023,"text":"我請那個組長不要啦我沒有時間啦這是我剛剛在我來質詢之前才上網去點進去的你們這樣子的效率你們這樣子的一個無感存在你想為什麼那麼多委員對你們那麼有意見提出那麼多的質疑"},{"start":754.161,"end":779.585,"text":"我跟你講喔 這個志願報告系統他不是多專業喔 對不起不能這樣講這個志願報告系統是任何只要跟運輸安全的從業人員跟乘客都可以提出進入這個志願報告系統所以從英國的那個CIS裡面我們看到不管是駕駛或者是他們的鐵道的管理員或者是他們的相關的從業人員都可以提出問題"},{"start":783.686,"end":791.087,"text":"那這個資源報告系統裡面他們就要回覆回覆就要有立案 立案就要有結案"},{"start":794.875,"end":817.718,"text":"那同樣的你們也是仿效國外英國的這個系統你們弄了一個資源報告系統那你們又是如何在處理那有沒有效率有沒有結案有沒有給解答有沒有找出原因有沒有找解方這個其實是我們期待運安會要跟國人報告要交代的啦好不好以上謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時13分）謝謝林召委。請林主任委員。"],["主席：請運安會的林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員早。"],["何委員欣純：主委早。其實今天早上很多委員都跟本席今天質詢的重點差不多一樣，重點是在於我們都期待運安會不只是一個事故後調查的獨立單位。在運安會的職掌裡面，更應該強化有關全臺灣的交通運輸安全，或者是其他專業上的專案研析建議。我記得在運安會成立以及成立週年的時候，我也在這個地方、在交通委員會，曾經就美國國家運輸安全委員會的職掌、作法、他們的有為到底是怎麼樣，提醒運安會也應該要做什麼。我不知道主委還記得嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是，我知道。"],["何委員欣純：你知道嘛，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["何委員欣純：我不希望過了今年，明年我同樣還要用這樣子的標題，為什麼？因為大家對運安會的期待，你常常會跟我們說：不是啊，你們通過的這個法，跟我們成立的宗旨、成立的目的跟成立現在的組織架構就是不一樣。這個我覺得都是推拖。","今天很多委員都在談三峽重大車禍造成嚴重的死傷，網路謠言四起，是在於我們到目前為止還不知道發生事故的真正原因，還有專業上到底誰可以給我們一個真相？當然，我們也非常肯定看到運安會願意主動立案調查，因為你們調查事故的專業會讓國人信服，在信服中間還必須要你們的調查報告夠專業、夠取信於民，而且能夠提出真正的建議，如何的改善。","接著，國人都認為交通安全最重要，人身安全最重要，所以都期待運安會在事後調查之外，主調研析運輸安全，就是我剛剛一開始講的。主委，剛剛我講的新北三峽案，你立案要調查，檢調單位現在也在調查，就是司法體系也在調查。我先問一個問題，主委，你曾經提過你跟司法單位有保持聯繫，提供專業的協助。你所謂的保持聯繫、提供專業的協助是指什麼部分？"],["林主任委員信得：最主要是行車電腦、EDR，那個很專業，必須用特殊的儀器把它解出來。我們現在把這個……"],["何委員欣純：所以你提供特殊的儀器給檢調單位解析？"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們現在資料有跟他互通有無，還在解，因為他那個車子撞了之後，有一些……等於是故障中的……"],["何委員欣純：你解要多久的時間？以你的專業。為什麼要問這個問題？因為這牽涉到調查的進度，也提供給檢調，希望能夠有一個初步的調查結果，才能夠追究責任的歸屬。"],["林主任委員信得：三峽這個案子，我們下個月就會有一個初步報告，10月份會有一個事實資料報告，然後明年1月大概草案就會出來，明年5月會有最終報告。但是下個月的……"],["何委員欣純：不是，我的意思是，剛剛……來，你這是兩碼子事喔！第一件事，我剛剛的問題是，你說有跟現在的司法檢調單位保持橫向聯繫，你說你提供專業的儀器去解析他的EDR，這個專業的儀器什麼時候可以解析完畢？"],["林主任委員信得：我剛剛還沒報告完，下個月的初步報告裡面，EDR的資料就會解出來。"],["何委員欣純：所以你的意思是，檢調單位要等到下個月你的初步調查報告出來才行？"],["林主任委員信得：下個月的這個時候，檢調跟我們的資料都已經同步了，EDR這些所有的參數就會被解出來。"],["何委員欣純：所以你的EDR參數要解析出來，就是下個月的這個時候，檢調的調查跟你們的調查報告會是同步的？"],["林主任委員信得：應該會更提早。"],["何委員欣純：你剛剛是這樣子說嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["何委員欣純：我為什麼這樣問？因為這牽涉到我們多久可以等到初步的調查報告，或是初步的事故發生原因。"],["林主任委員信得：初步報告是下個月會出來。"],["何委員欣純：對啊，因為你剛剛講，你跟檢調單位都保持聯繫，我的意思是，這個牽涉到我們需要等多久才能夠知道事故原因。所以我才講，除了事後的調查之外，主要的運輸安全問題也可以主動研析，就像剛剛很多委員提到的，全臺灣各大重要的交通事故，在公路系統方面，我們有沒有蒐集數據、有沒有進行研析？譬如說，新北三峽是一個重大的交通事故，上個月臺中的向上路也發生了重大的交通事故，而這個算不算在你未來的……因為你之前沒有立案，未來在你公路系統交通運輸安全的研析裡面，可不可以針對全臺灣各大公路系統的交通重大事故盤點、研析，告訴我們可以有什麼樣的改善？譬如說，臺中向上路這一段經常發生車禍，又是為什麼？可以在你的報告裡面呈現。有沒有這個可能性？主委，可以做嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我跟委員報告，每一年交通部道安會跟運研所，他們有個專案小組，會對全國各熱點、幾個很容易發生重大運輸事故的……"],["何委員欣純：可是我們現在看不到，你說在道安會報會有這個東西，可是現在看不到運安會對於這些已經經常發生事故的交通熱點，到底有什麼樣的建議跟作為啊！"],["林主任委員信得：所以這個案子我們準備召集一個會議，召集交通部相關機關……"],["何委員欣純：我現在問你，你才說「我現在來召集一個會議」喔！"],["林主任委員信得：不是，我們要把這個案子拿出來，分析這個路段到底為什麼會常常發生車禍，然後我們找出……"],["何委員欣純：主委，我現在的重點不是因為我問了你才要說「我要召開一個會議」研究、解析。我現在是說運安會應該有的功能，在你的職掌、在法規的要求之下，本來就要對交通運輸的安全提供一個專案研究、解析跟改善意見。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["何委員欣純：全臺灣有那麼多交通的重大事故，你剛剛也提到，道安會報都會提供全國各縣市交通意外事故的熱點。運安會的高度應該在全臺灣的公路系統，為什麼會有這些重大交通事故的熱點，你明明可以掌握，掌握這些數據之後，你有沒有進一步研究為什麼？如果有進一步的去研究為什麼並找出原因，可以提供給各個該權責單位進行改善。"],["林主任委員信得：因為這個現在已經在做了。"],["何委員欣純：現在在做，為什麼看不到啊？"],["林主任委員信得：因為交通部會……"],["何委員欣純：我看不到你們在做什麼，就是因為國人看不到你們在做什麼，所以都對你們這一個單位──獨立機構的存在覺得無感啊！"],["林主任委員信得：不是，因為現在交通部單位跟運研所，他們已經在做，每一年都在做。"],["何委員欣純：每一年都在做，但是我建議的是除了運研所，我們也看不到，如果運安會也覺得這不是你的業務範圍，不要在你的運輸安全自願報告系統立案研析，以專案研究盤點全臺灣……主委，你會繼續地無存在感。"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以把它做一個立案研究。"],["何委員欣純：我為什麼這麼說？我在上一次4月17號，有質詢過一個大家關注的民生議題──行動電源起火，國際案例頻傳影響飛安，我以這個為例質詢你，要找出問題，希望你能夠研析，你給我回了一個書面資料，說成立研究小組，然後會行文調資料，這樣就沒了、就沒了。你知道行動電源起火影響飛安，甚至在高鐵上行動電源起火引起大家的恐慌，這件事對人民的交通安全是多重要，你有把人民的擔心放在心上嗎？沒有啊！你就給我一頁A4的報告而已，然後也沒寫進度。我希望我可以看到進度，行動電源為什麼在飛機上起火？那該怎麼辦？在鐵道上面行動電源起火又該怎麼辦？人民期待的是運安會可以給一個解析、專案研究、找出問題、給改善建議，讓人民安心，這是我們認為你該更積極的部分。我再舉最後一個例子，30秒，你們自己運安會的網站上面就有所謂的自願調查系統，裡面有國外的一個資訊，我馬上上網去連結，連結到英國運安自願調查系統，這個CIRAS就是從你們的網站上去連結的，你們有提供這個連結；運安會裡面也有一個運輸安全自願報告系統，剛剛很多委員都提到。你們也給一個國際連結，說英國也有這樣子的系統，可是你看看人家英國怎麼做。我只是粗淺用數據，因為我沒時間。英國光是今年4月份就提出9件的結案報告，你知道在你們運安會的運安自願報告系統裡面有幾件嗎？沒半件啦！你們公開的報告內容資訊還停在2024年8月2號，還在去年的8月啦！你們自己連結的國際運安自願報告系統，人家英國已經到2025年4月，光是4月就有9件還是結案的報告，你們自己運安會呢？自己的運輸安全自願報告系統一點進去，還在去年8月，而且去年8月就只有一件。"],["林主任委員信得：我請組長來報告。"],["何委員欣純：不用啦！我沒有時間，這是我剛剛來質詢之前才上網點進去的，你們這樣子的效率、你們這樣子的無感存在，你想為什麼那麼多委員對你們那麼有意見，提出那麼多的質疑？我跟你講，這個自願報告系統不是多專業，對不起，不能這樣講，這個自願報告系統是任何只要跟運輸安全的從業人員、乘客，都可以進入這個自願報告系統，所以從英國的CIRAS裡面，我們看到不管是駕駛、鐵道的管理員，或者是他們相關的從業人員，都可以提出問題到這個自願報告系統裡面，他們就要回復，回復就要有立案，立案就要有結案。同樣的，你們也是仿效英國的這個系統，你們弄了一個自願報告系統，那你們又是如何在處理？有沒有效率？有沒有結案？有沒有給解答？有沒有找出原因？有沒有找解方？這個其實是我們期待運安會要跟國人報告、要交代的啦，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：主委，可能特別要去注意一下，何欣純委員提出這個問題，你再專程到辦公室去說明一下，好不好？好，謝謝何欣純委員。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","現在登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下的決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、廖先翔委員、黃健豪委員、游顥委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；三、委員對於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料，以及未及答復部分，請國家運輸安全調查委員會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請院會領信的林主委好 林主委委員早主委早 主委先請問您是否還記得四年前發生在四年前震驚全國的408太魯閣出軌事件408太魯閣您記得嗎"},{"start":25.172,"end":32.46,"text":"那這場事故他造成49人罹難是台鐵近年最嚴重的意外嗎所以那根據當時的調查泰魯閣出軌的原因是為什麼就是連軌工程的問題嘛"},{"start":40.684,"end":61.569,"text":"鐵軌工程的問題那他是有違規的情形嗎他是違規施工沒錯吧那就是因為違規施工他導致工程車滑落自軌道造成列車出軌那主委當時應安會有對台鐵提出什麼樣的建議改善建議我們有提出請台鐵台鐵後來有頒布一個叫做"},{"start":63.009,"end":88.586,"text":"鄰軌工程安全防護措施的要點那也把它納入鄰軌工程的採購企業的範本裡面它有在做那除了還有其他的嗎還有其他的機制跟程序嗎其他有啦其他像這個應該將這個施工廠商把它列為內部的安全管理的重要的一環都把它納入不能把它好像它是話外之名不可以都拉進來那台鐵有在做"},{"start":89.406,"end":101.216,"text":"那最近我是還有一些案子又跑出來有一些案子跑出來那本席 本席這老師當初院會有建議要加強靈鬼的施工管理還有通報機制吧然後還有監督的程序那我們看到這張投影片就是"},{"start":102.731,"end":122.689,"text":"社團上面的一個貼文他說在七堵在內有外包廠商他沒有申請他擅自進入到營運的路線旁邊進行施工那他也沒有依照程序來報備七堵幾乎斷那這樣的施工行為是不是跟當年太魯閣事件中的靈鬼施工管理失當有相似之處"},{"start":123.53,"end":146.895,"text":"有相似之處有相似之處那我相信當時運安會也有提出就是在事件蔡五格事件之後也有建議那有沒有對台鐵也就是提出相關的建議就是改善建議我們定期在行政會會對台鐵的安全改善有一個有一個提報會議那運安會也會派人參加這個案子我們會提報"},{"start":147.677,"end":175.982,"text":"那我們看到這個今天這個他這個行為是不是有違反林軌施工的管理確實是違反規定然後台鐵我們跟台鐵的聯絡結果表示他們依規定要拆劃是那主委那本期待遇的是如果台鐵沒有主動通報的話那他這個慾安會你們也沒辦法及時掌握這樣的情況那表示那現在的他的監督機制是有漏洞的那想請教主委那慾安會他有沒有通報的平台"},{"start":178.717,"end":193.906,"text":"通報平台是有啦但是我覺得我們會再跟台鐵講說你這個既然說你改善已經完成為什麼又發現那請他加強落實啦那我們在行政院的會議裡面改革會我們也會再提報那今天是就是"},{"start":195.447,"end":222.019,"text":"今天是因為沒有發生事故那如果那針對像這樣沒有通報的施工如果通常運安會會調查是因為有事故的發生嗎那這樣子的話那我相信台鐵因為我們也看到這張虛情事件的通報單那他不一定會呈報到運安會那運安會得知這樣的情形你們要怎麼來做處置沒有通報這個沒有通報"},{"start":224.671,"end":249.063,"text":"來 你要說明一下好 請說明 謝謝報告委員喔 因為這個案子呢就是因為台鐵的原來在太魯閣的這個事故裡面我們提出了這個改善建議那所以台鐵訂定了這個規定那它有一個一定的一個發現的機制所以在這個案件裡面台鐵的人員是立刻發現施工廠商違規進入這個施工場地的這個部分那所以他立刻發現就立刻"},{"start":250.043,"end":252.148,"text":"去做處理了那當時應安會有沒有建議台鐵說針對這樣的廠商台鐵應該要來做什麼樣的處置"},{"start":260.435,"end":260.835,"text":"臺鐵提出一個分項執行計畫"},{"start":281.368,"end":308.593,"text":"的一個安全防護的實施要點措施要點就是他的一個實施的一個方式他的分享執行計畫那我們現在是希望說在這一次透過這一次的一個事件裡面呢我們也希望說台鐵能夠加強去落實這方面的建議就是因為會要督促台鐵就是全面的來盤點就是每個車站他們外包廠商施工的情況啦那包括也要強化他們進出設施的審核還有監工"},{"start":309.073,"end":334.419,"text":"沒有錯啦我們會跟台鐵有一個連續機制我們會跟他講我們一定會提一定會提在行政院會在強力的督促台鐵我們會強力強力要求OK好那主委我們接下來看到非安我們可以看到日前國際有發生多起的非安事故那造成很多傷亡主委請問像國外發生這樣的非安事故是不是可以提供我們更多非安的啟發讓我國的非安更加的安全更加的完善呢呃"},{"start":341.084,"end":358.358,"text":"我想這些資料我們航空調查組對國外的一些案例事實上我們都有蒐集那麼蒐集的一些原因比如說NTSB像韓國像日本其他國家的我們都有檔案Database都有在建立"},{"start":359.279,"end":370.443,"text":"建立之後我們在每一個定期的資源包括系統裡面也會把這些比較典型的這種事故我們會發佈定期發刊入裡面給各個航空公司參考"},{"start":376.065,"end":398.721,"text":"在今天的解论报告中有看到精进运输事故的调查能量计划嘛那国际民航组织他联合国专责管理还有发展世界各国民航事务的总部他设在加拿大的蒙特罗那每三年举办一次大会那五国音乐两岸的因素还有政治因素嘛导致没有办法参加ICAO那请问主委预安会跟ICAO的互动情况目前是"},{"start":400.551,"end":423.125,"text":"我們運安會有參加三個國際組織一個是ITSA就是所謂運輸安全所長年度的聯會每一年開一次我們也參加SRC就是亞洲調查員的飛航安全協會還有一個是叫做IASS是國際飛航安全的年度會議我們在這三個平台裡面都會拿到最新資料都會拿到最新資料"},{"start":424.562,"end":443.181,"text":"是 因為我們沒有辦法加入ICL的關係嘛那我們在缺乏這個正式管道下一頁希望主委可以強化就是我國在國際間它非政府的非安機構的技術交流讓我國的非安更加安全是是 我們都是這個方向是都一樣的再請主委繼續努力好 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謝謝委員提醒第二個我想問一下國科會有關於用電的問題"},{"start":188.228,"end":207.935,"text":"之前國會會在2025年行政院科技顧問會議總結處理原則提出一個預估說在2050年的時候因應很多我們科技的發展到時候總電力需求會到5000億度是當時是由國會會執行秘書張正豪他指出來的那這個張正豪執行秘書他講說"},{"start":213.53,"end":230.73,"text":"未來我們的能源如果沒有核能的話大概還可以靠太陽能、風電、地熱未來可以進口綠氫、綠氨等等我覺得這個國會會議我們去評估一下這個能源的預估會不會太過樂觀你知道我們現在才多少度嗎"},{"start":231.966,"end":254.805,"text":"是 我們現在2500億度你說需求吧 需求其實按照我們現在產業的發展所以我們現在看這個表格 我們現在整個台電系統發電量是2500億度換言之 這個資料是去年的 所以去年那時候還有核電換言之我們在205你要加倍 要加倍"},{"start":256.055,"end":282.516,"text":"那我們其實可以針對一項一項能源來看比如說太陽能其實主委你可以去看太陽能最近的發展已經趨緩了他的暗場慢慢會飽和對已經慢慢飽和了風電 風電也有一些危機啦為什麼因為也是川普啊川普罵風電是垃圾所以國際有一些大廠可能會減少對風電的投資再來大家一直講綠能一直講綠能"},{"start":284.955,"end":300.245,"text":"新型綠能啦 好說兩個嘛一個地熱 一個氫能地熱我的了解現在做專探專探到有一些已經開採的地熱其實佔發電量都很小這次有一些"},{"start":301.326,"end":320.261,"text":"風險然後再來就是有關氫能氫能我不知道可以問一下主委氫能應該是不會增加發電量嘛之前那個中研院的那個中研院他們講說他們在研究一個四年的氫能研究計畫到時候是做跟天然氣發電基礎的橋接啊他是減碳他是減碳他並不是說有了氫能多的話呢可以讓發電量增加"},{"start":327.307,"end":353.445,"text":"所以我覺得你這樣子看喔在沒有核電的情況之下你要在2050讓我們的電double翻倍到5000億度主委你覺得有可能嗎因為這個跟國會雖然說那個是台電的事啊但國會是輔導國內科技發展嘛科技用電息息相關的所以這個部分你有沒有自己也去研究一下要給經濟部正確的建議啊"},{"start":354.591,"end":377.323,"text":"那個經濟部都一直在做相關的這個評估,那國會是在相關的這個新能源的開發,我們一直在努力在...是哪一方面的新能源開發?好,剛剛其實我也有提到,氫能的部分現在其實有其他的這個方法,就是SOFC,就是Solid Oxide Fuel Cell,就是一個新的這個做法,它是不用靠燃燒的,它是沒有排碳的,"},{"start":378.103,"end":398.881,"text":"但它目前的成本我們還在評估當中這是一個新的但是濾清我們需要是濾清濾清的這個進口或者是用安的形式轉成安比較穩定它的進口來取代未來的這種逐步啦你覺得可以新人如果順利發展我們是期望可以順利發展"},{"start":400.343,"end":429.082,"text":"第一個它什麼時候可以商轉第二個它可以增加多少發電量現在商轉小規模的已經有了至於大量的商轉未來整個市場的供應端還需要再評估可能從綠電過剩的國家他們會把它轉成氫來賣給需要綠能的這些國家這是一個可能性主委我只是提醒我覺得大家對於這個能源也都不要自欺欺人"},{"start":429.922,"end":451.785,"text":"就像譬如說一直講說政府一直講說我們不排除用那個SMR但是不排除不排除可是又一直不去設立核廢的最終處理廠所以光核廢這個問題社會就很難達到共識所以這都是志氣氣人的說法我覺得很務實的我們一定要找到新的能源"},{"start":452.586,"end":468.579,"text":"否則的話科技發展會遇到很大阻力嘛同意所以像為什麼黃文勳你看黃文勳就說台灣需要更多電力然後說要投資核電黃文勳就背一堆人背一堆反核的不知道是誰啦就出征啊還說他是中共同路人"},{"start":469.11,"end":479.334,"text":"人家是業界對電力擔心嘛像美國商會每一次建言裡面也有都說去使用核電嘛好那最後我問一下因為這個是國安會有科學園區的擴電計畫嘛本來是"},{"start":485.327,"end":501.024,"text":"有兩個,一個是希望在2036年可以新增1000公頃的用地另外後來要新增2050年希望新增用地可以到3000公頃但這環拼裡面有一些狀況我們來看一下第一個也是跟用電有關"},{"start":504.328,"end":530.576,"text":"這個應該是經濟部的建議經濟部建議說要宣導廠商製成使用燃料採用新興能源還有第二個是要評估50%屋頂可以用面積建置太陽光電然後還有一個還有一個是也是經濟部的建議說希望國會以後這些用地可以預留用地設置自用發電設備及儲能系統甚至於要預留用地以興建電廠"},{"start":532.403,"end":552.508,"text":"然後這個電廠就台電公司或民營電廠都可以啦還有輸配電系統就是變電站那我看國會的回覆直接是回覆不可能那我就也是很好奇一個很務實的問題你看國科會現在如果要新設用地都被經濟部要求說在裡面要設電廠"},{"start":554.428,"end":567.202,"text":"這透露出什麼樣的訊息啊 主委以目前的電廠的方式要放在原區裡面當然是不可能為什麼經濟部會提出這種要求呢經濟部當然是希望說將來用電的"},{"start":569.344,"end":594.75,"text":"非常大的這些事業希望他們能夠自力發電所以民營的電廠進來未來也許是可行這種民營的電廠小規模的模組化的電廠我剛提的那個氫能源那種做法是一個可能性那至於SMR未來有沒有這個可能性我們會去評估會去研究那地熱是屬於比較大規模的那種其實主委這個"},{"start":596.75,"end":621.551,"text":"我看到這個環評他們的建議我就知道啦其實經濟部也很擔心電力不足啦所以我跟你講我真的希望國會會可以本於科技理性這樣的角度提供正確就不要大家都欺騙就這些人說哪一個我們可以沒問題不會缺電大家放心但務實的討論其實處處你都會看到大家對缺電的擔憂啦我們會進行研究會去評估他的感情謝謝好謝謝韋揚"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":864,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時39分）麻煩請國科會主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。我們現在來關心一下我們留學生，若我們的留學生要去美國，而美國現在對於留學生簽證的政策一變再變，最新的消息，也就是他們的媒體報導，川普已經下令全球的美國大使館，立刻停止為外國學生安排簽證面試，已經安排的不受影響，但是他們已經不接受預約了，除非先針對這些申請人進行社交媒體的審查，可能在審查過後，才會繼續預約。主委，因為國科會也有補助很多的學生出國留學，你們有沒有去掌握一下，他現在要進行社交媒體審查是要審查什麼？怎麼樣的內容是不會被他通過的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，這個我們會關注啦！我們希望不是真的全面性而且長時間，希望只是短暫的個案。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你們相關的單位應該去了解一下嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為他的政策現在變來變去，但我們從一些報章雜誌報導看到美國川普現在正在針對哈佛，主要是兩個原因，不知道主委有沒有去了解？至少我看到的是他們覺得哈佛什麼反猶太主義，這第一個；第二個是川普現在在打擊DEI，對不對？我不知道他們審查的是不是跟社群媒體的內容有關，但主委你們有沒有去協助一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然沒有辦法了解美國政府他要做……"],["葉委員元之：因為這個會有影響嘛！我剛剛講的問題就是，現在有一些學生國科會已經補助了，假設還沒有安排到預約，然後他要接受社群媒體的審查，這個是不是要因應？會不會因為他社群媒體什麼樣的狀況，AIT或是美國認為不OK，簽證就不發了，那我們這個人才就沒辦法出國進修欸！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會因應這個變化，如果是真的話，我們對留學生接下來怎麼協助，會按照委員的建議，我們會積極來處理。"],["葉委員元之：這是我們跟你們要的資料，114年核定補助赴美國總共有124名學生，博士生95名，有51名還沒出發，博士後29名，有22名還沒出發；另外，還有科學與技術人員國外短期研究有64名，但是有38名尚未出發，國科會可能也要去問一下……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們來了解一下。"],["葉委員元之：問一下他們現在是已經拿到簽證了嗎？還是還沒拿到簽證，好不好？這個去關心一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["葉委員元之：第二個，我想問一下國科會有關用電的問題，之前國科會在2025年行政院科技顧問會議總結處理原則提出一個預估，表示在2050年的時候，因應很多科技發展，到時候總電力需求會到5,000億度，當時是由國科會執行秘書張振豪指出來的，張振豪執行秘書說未來我們的能源，如果沒有核能的話，大概還可以靠太陽能、風電、地熱，未來可以進口綠氫、綠氨等等，國科會有沒有去評估一下此能源的預估會不會太過樂觀？你知道我們現在才多少度嗎？我們現在是2,500億度……"],["吳主任委員誠文：你說需求嘛，其實按照我們現在產業的發展……"],["葉委員元之：主委，我們先來看這個表格，現在整個台電系統發電量是2,500億度，這個資料是去年的，去年那時候還有核電；換言之，在2050年要加倍。我們可以針對一項一項能源來看，比如說太陽能，其實主委可以去看，太陽能最近的發展已經趨緩了，它的案場……"],["吳主任委員誠文：慢慢會飽和，對。"],["葉委員元之：已經慢慢飽和了，風電也有一些危機，為什麼？也是川普嘛，川普罵風電是垃圾，所以國際有一些大廠可能會減少對風電的投資。再來，大家一直講綠能，新型綠能就兩個，一個地熱、一個氫能，地熱依我的了解，現在做鑽探，有一些已經開採的地熱，其實占的發電量都很小，這是有一些風險；另外，有關氫能，我不知道可不可以問一下主委，氫能應該是不會增加發電量，之前中研院說他們在研究一個四年的氫能研究計畫，到時候要跟天然氣發電機組橋接，它是減碳……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，「去碳燃氫」計畫，減碳。"],["葉委員元之：並不是氫能多的話，可以讓發電量增加。這樣子來看，在沒有核電的情況之下，要在2050年讓我們的電double翻倍到5,000億度，主委，你覺得有可能嗎？雖然那個是台電的事，但國科會是輔導國內科技發展，與科技用電息息相關，這個部分你自己有沒有研究一下，要給經濟部正確的建議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟部都一直在做相關的評估，而國科會是在做相關的新能源開發，我們一直努力在做。"],["葉委員元之：是哪一方面的新能源開發？"],["吳主任委員誠文：剛剛委員有提到氫能的部分，現在其實有其他的方法，就是SOFC（solid oxide fuel cell），即一個新的作法，它是不用靠燃燒的，它是沒有排碳的，但它目前的成本我們還在評估當中，這是一個新的方法，但我們需要的是綠氫，而綠氫的進口，或者是用氫的形式轉成氨會比較穩定，用此進口逐步取代未來的……"],["葉委員元之：如果氫能順利發展，我們是期望可以順利發展……"],["吳主任委員誠文：期望可以順利……"],["葉委員元之：第一個，它什麼時候可以商轉？第二個，它可以增加多少發電量？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在小規模的商轉已經有了，至於大量的商轉，未來整個市場的供應端還需要再評估，可能從綠電過剩的國家，他們會把它轉成氫來賣給需要綠能的這些國家，這是一個可能性。"],["葉委員元之：沒有關係，主委，我只是提醒啦！我覺得大家對於能源也都不要自欺欺人，像政府一直講我們不排除用SMR，但是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不排除，我們現在正在研議。"],["葉委員元之：不排除，可是又一直不去設立核廢的最終處置場，光核廢這個問題，社會就很難達到共識，所以這都是自欺欺人的說法，我覺得很務實的，我們一定要找到新的能源，否則的話，科技發展會遇到很大阻力，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意、同意。"],["葉委員元之：像你看黃仁勳就說臺灣需要更多電力，然後說要投資核電，然後黃仁勳就被一堆反核的人出征，我不知道是誰啦！還說他是中共同路人，人家是業界人士，對電力擔心嘛！像美國商會在每一次建言裡面也都說去使用核電。","最後我問一下，國科會有科學園區擴建計畫，本來是有兩個，一個是希望在2036年可以新增1,000公頃的用地，後來又新增2050年希望新增用地可以到3,000公頃，但在環評裡面有一些狀況，我們來看一下。第一個也是跟用電有關，這應該是經濟部的建議，經濟部建議要宣導廠商製程使用之燃料採用新興能源；第二個，要求其評估50%屋頂可用面積建置太陽光電；還有一個也是經濟部的建議，希望國科會以後可以預留用地，設置自用發電設備及儲能系統，甚至於要預留用地以興建電廠，電廠就台電公司或民營電廠都可以，還有輸配電系統，就是變電站。我看國科會是直接回復不可能，我就很好奇，也是一個很務實的問題，你看國科會現在如果要新設用地，都被經濟部要求在裡面設電廠，主委，這透露出什麼樣的訊息？"],["吳主任委員誠文：以目前電廠的方式要放在園區裡面，當然是不可能。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是這種大型的……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼經濟部會提出這種要求呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟部當然是希望將來用電非常大的這些事業，希望他們能夠自力發電。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以民營的電廠進來，未來也許是可行，這種民營電廠是小規模、模組化的電廠，我剛剛提的那種氫能源作法是一個可能性，至於SMR未來有沒有可能性，我們會去評估、研究，地熱是屬於比較大規模的那種……"],["葉委員元之：不可能嘛！我知道。主委，我看到環評的建議就知道了，其實經濟部也很擔心電力不足，所以我真的希望國科會可以本於科技理性的角度，針對能源提供正確……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會去……"],["葉委員元之：大家不要自欺欺人，說哪一個我們可以，沒問題，不會缺電，大家放心，但務實地討論，處處你都會看到大家對於缺電的擔憂啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會進行研究，會去評估它的可行性。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員質詢，官員請回座。","現在處理解凍專案報告5案，請議事人員宣讀並進行討論。","一、國家科學及技術委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會「業務費」預算凍結30%專案報告，請查照案。","二、國家科學及技術委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會「基本行政工作維持」預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。","三、國家科學及技術委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送新竹科學園區管理局「業務費」預算凍結30%專案報告，請查照案。","四、國家科學及技術委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送中部科學園區管理局「業務費」預算凍結30%專案報告，請查照案。","五、國家科學及技術委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送南部科學園區管理局「業務費」預算凍結30%專案報告，請查照案。"],["主席：謝謝，我想我們就逐案進行討論。解凍專案報告的第一案，頁次是第239頁，請問各位委員有無意見？"],["羅委員廷瑋：239頁？"],["主席：對，239頁，我們給大家一點時間，在大家翻閱的過程，本席對於這個案子也有幾個問題想要就教於國科會，因為在240頁裡面有提到為提升資訊服務品質和作業效能，有規劃導入人工智慧，當然這是一個良善的作法，但是我也想要詢問一下，因為近期AI越來越聰明，雖然國科會網站上是有放一個行政院及所屬機關（構）使用生成式AI參考指引的一些說明，但是我覺得未來可能會有越來越多可能發生需要釋疑的情況，我想稍微就教一下，然後待會能不能請主委或同仁來回應一下？這邊有幾個問題：第一個，因為有提到說可能導入AI，我想問說國科會內部現在的規定，公文傳送或者是繳交報告，譬如說給我們的解凍報告寫得很棒，你們內部有沒有一些指引或規範是同仁用AI寫可不可以，這是第一個。第二個，因為裡面也有寫到說你們很辛苦，每年都審查老師寫的國科會計畫案，我想請教第二個問題，老師或學生用AI來寫國科會計畫的補助案申領補助可不可以？用AI來寫結案報告可不可以？有沒有規範？這是第二個問題。第三個，其實產業有可能也會跟國科會合作，國科會也可能會委辦一些產業來進行，現在我們也看到有很多公司，可能其實程式碼或者是內容都是用AI來寫的，如果本來計畫裡面寫說要做這個、做那個，或不管是人型機器人或非人型機器人，他說我有10個人力、20個人力，寫得看起來洋洋灑灑的，可是有可能他最後錢拿了只是叫AI去寫，用這種方式來做，我們國科會有沒有能力去查核？就是說他跟你講了10個人力、20個人力，結果根本就是花1,000美金用AI去寫的，Sam Altman已經講了，未來可能一個人的公司就可以創造10億美金的產值，所以我想問的這3個問題可能會依據……因為我們現在要編列預算，我們預計這個工作量是很龐大的，但是我們有沒有預測到可能會遇到這樣的問題，產業界或者是學界，或者我們剛剛提到的國科會內部，這幾個問題你們內部的情況是什麼，如果沒弄清楚，說不定我們編了太多的錢或我們編了太少的錢，這個我們想要了解一下，這是我的問題，不好意思，好像有委員也有疑問、有意見，伍麗華委員，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主席。關於第一案我言明在先，非常支持解凍，最主要是因為這當中也去處理到一些學術研究界的需求，我就延續我過去質詢的關心，就是我很期待像淨零碳排的話，希望能夠去做跟原住民族地區如何接軌，累計了那麼多的研究計畫，我一直很關心怎麼樣可以到成立一個學門，讓原住民族的研究有方法論、知識論慢慢提煉出來，所以我希望第一個，國科會是不是考慮辦一個南島民族的期刊或是原住民研究期刊或者是臺灣學研究期刊，讓這些年散落各處的原住民研究的paper能夠收攏，像國科會有在辦東亞科技與社會研究國際期刊，所以我是希望能不能夠這樣子朝向這個期刊。第二個，我也很期待有系統地培育這些學者，研究團隊要跨領域、跨時代還有做知識的實踐者，總之我就是希望國科會能不能夠往這個方向提出一些具體措施，讓我們知道，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請主委或者同仁回答，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：主席剛剛提到的建議，就是我們在AI的運用上面，特別是在公務機關，包含公文書等等這些的使用是不是有規範或者是在鼓勵，我覺得因為現在大型模型的確是對於我們在文書的處理上面可以節省很多人力，但是我們擔心的就是裡面會不會有風險這個事情，這兩個我們都要兼顧啦，我們現在對於比較屬於機敏的文書，我們是禁止使用，對於一般事務性的文書，我們現在並沒有限制。至於委員提到查核是不是使用AI，譬如說我們講產業的發展，我們都在鼓勵要使用，減少人力嘛！因為人力不足，都在使用，媒體業者等等，甚至在學校，教授也鼓勵學生在使用，不管是coding還是做報告等等，會不會有什麼學術倫理等等，這些議題其實非常複雜，是不是該鼓勵還是該禁止都會有正反不同的意見，所以我們後續會再研議一下看看，在避免風險的狀況之下怎麼樣鼓勵使用，因為鼓勵使用才會讓AI發展得更快嘛！所以這一點我就先跟主席報告。","伍委員提到的，國科會其實是非常非常支持，國科會自己不會辦期刊，因為我們是公務機關，但是我們會支持學界如果願意來辦，包含南島、原住民等等的期刊，學界願意提出來做這個事，我們會支持，跟伍委員報告。"],["主席：范雲委員。"],["范委員雲：我的部分是在書面報告的部分，我是支持解凍，我其實只有3個案子，有2案我待會在質詢的時候會更深入地去問，沒有質詢的就是關於學門調整，在你們白色報告的第4頁，國會聯絡人有跟我們講你們詳細的會議內容，我對於你們現在關於學門調整的SOP的大項上，我覺得是OK的，怎麼樣透過諮詢，然後學門的什麼複審委員的討論，然後取得共識，最後再請主委確定是OK的，但是這個部分因為看起來像是個PPT的內容，是不是可以把它文字化，之後文字化的版本再讓我辦公室看一下好不好？解凍沒問題，我只是提一個進一步的意見好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們遵照委員的指示。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝，我的發言完畢。"],["主席：好，因為我剛剛的問題，我也支持解凍，但是我想對於機關在執行業務上，我們還是要有更多的釐清，因為我覺得剛剛我得到的答案是比較模糊，但我先問，因為照主委剛剛的回應，主委，您是不是不能保證這個解凍報告的報告書，同仁有可能是用AI寫的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有辦法檢查，我只能信任他們，我相信沒有。"],["主席：對，那寫的時候有沒有請同仁要注意不要用AI？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，如果都不要用AI，我們……"],["主席：沒有啦！我們只是希望提醒，因為國科會計畫要結案、申請，參與國科會計畫的老師或學生他們可能沒有這個意思，但他可能覺得AI很好用，他用AI來寫國科會計畫申請專案，那這算不算一種詐欺？這有沒有問題？其實沒有規範嘛，審查的老師用AI來審，有沒有規範？因為您剛剛……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，那個……"],["主席：我是沒有得到答復，您能不能簡短答復？因為現在沒有，大家也議論紛紛，大家都說什麼？不確定，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請我們綜規處長來回答。"],["彭處長麗春：跟委員報告，其實我們這兩年來一直有在宣導，就是希望所有的PI在寫研究計畫，第一個，他要為他的計畫負完全的責任，他可以使用AI的工具，但是他要在他的計畫書裡面去揭露。另外，我們也透過審查機制來把關，因為我們審查國科會研究計畫其實著重的是科學跟原創性。"],["主席：那如果沒有揭露，他會有責任嗎？沒關係，不耽誤大家的時間，其實我只是想要呼籲，我們有業務的預算，業務在執行上面其實有很多的細節要考量，我們不希望有老師或學生的權益因此受損，因為有的老師寫得很辛苦，但別的老師花200塊美金，一個月的月費，AI按一個鈕就全部跑出來，我們現在說它有點錯誤，但也許以後不會有錯誤，結果AI寫的拿到了專案，拚命寫的拿不到專案，甚至連結案報告……您說有要揭露，不揭露有什麼關係嗎？我想這個是不是可以一個月內提供一個相關的報告，因為剛剛主委有說您會再陸續提出來，可是我覺得需求孔亟啦！所以一個月不夠的話，可不可以三個月？不然我覺得我們大家人心惶惶，不知道怎麼來評斷，像我看到裡面沒有揭露啊！那會不會……可是我剛剛又問是不是有用AI，您說不確定。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們三個月。"],["主席：好，三個月，謝謝。第一案還有沒有委員有意見？好，如果委員第一案沒有意見的話，第一案就准予動支，提報院會，謝謝。","接下來處理第二案，頁次是243頁。請問各位委員，有無意見？請伍麗華委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：弱弱的問一下，因為解凍報告裡面你們寫到有受到財劃法的影響，我這邊也會擔心，因為我們原住民族研究在國科會的經費一年有五千八百多萬，所以有很多原住民的學者也會擔心會不會受到影響，我了解一下就好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果財劃法修正案還是沒有辦法解套的話，我想大部分的計畫或多或少都會受到影響，我講的是明年，不是今年，這部分我當然是希望能夠順利圓滿的解決。我知道我們這個委員會的委員對國科會其實沒有……對我們不會有很大的意見，因為我們服務的是全國的學界以及科學園區，這個對整個國家的發展都非常重要，我們希望不會受到影響。"],["主席：好，謝謝主委，我想這一點，因為第二案我有提出一些想法，所以我這裡也跟您提出一下，其實這個部分我們有相關的凍結，也是因為財劃法相關的過程當中，各界很關注，其實這個分配還沒有確定，稍早柯志恩委員在質詢的時候就有提到，你們在去年年底就有發文，現在相關的網頁上面寫的也是114年度恐受影響，所以我想當年在寫的時候，您剛剛也承認這可能應該是115年度，我覺得作為一個在臺灣科研上的最高機關，正確性、理性真的是很重要，所以我覺得有兩點：第一點，能不能稍微檢視一下，如果現在在國科會的網頁上面有資訊錯誤的地方，是不是能勘正一下，不要引發大家的誤會，這是第一點；第二點，我作為這個案件的關係人，我想提出來、想要強調的是，我覺得部會，尤其是國科會，用「推估」、「可能」、「恐受」等等這種描述的方式，我相信這可能不是主委的本意，但是可能你們的宣傳單位或文傳單位用這樣的一個方式，在一件事情還沒有底定之前，還有溝通的機會，還正在盤點，不管是行政院在盤點，還是大家雙方在溝通法令，還包含地方政府，其實如果在還不確定的情況之下，就用這種「推估」、「可能」、「恐受」，而且都是比較負面的提到科研會受到影響，大家會怎麼樣，我覺得這種論述……當然我尊重主委您內在的思想自由、言論自由，可是國科會應該是一個行政中立的機關，同仁在對外表達也應該要是以一個中立的論述。您作為一個行政機關的門面，在對外溝通的時候，如果不是以一個中立的形式，我覺得會引發民眾過度的擔憂，這個對科研人員也不太公平，所以第二點是主委能不能承諾未來不要用這種方式來溝通，我們對於解凍這個專案，大家都有一致的想法，這個是不是可以來回應一下？謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個沒有問題，我們可以承諾，對於已經揭露的資訊，如果有一些不正確的、要改的，我們回去會檢視一下，會來調整。"],["主席：非常謝謝主委。好，第二案請問各位委員，有無意見？好，謝謝。如果這個案子委員沒有意見的話，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","接著處理第三案。第三案的頁次是247頁，有沒有委員有意見？好，請林宜瑾召委，然後是郭昱晴委員、劉書彬委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席。因為第三案、第四案、第五案同樣都是科學園區業務費的凍結案，所以我就一併來講，當然我是相當的支持，因為唯有儘速解凍，才能有利於科學園區的營運發展，這我剛剛質詢有特別提到。我現在想要針對一些問題做一些叮嚀跟提問，就是園區的零廢處理廠的問題，因為中科已經有一個資源循環再生中心，各園區也要積極推動所謂事業廢棄物再循環利用，不過距離事業廢棄物再利用率百分百的目標，可能還有一個距離，我不曉得主委對於這樣的一個目標要怎麼達成？你的看法是怎麼樣、有什麼期許？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實國科會努力的有兩個面向，一個面向是園區部分，我們按照中科的模式，已經要求旗艦廠商在南科也要做同樣的事情，因為新的技術一直不斷在發展，我相信我們的廢棄物回收率會越來越高，將來要朝百分之百。現在我們發現因為努力的結果，我們在南科最後處理完的……現在正在建設當中，但是已經一面在回收了，處理完的廢棄物真正固化以後，要運出去的量已經比以前我們期待的還要變得更少了，所以這個進步很快，未來我們希望所有的園區努力朝這個方向，希望讓民眾的疑慮可以降到最低，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，請郭昱晴委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：第二案剛剛我在質詢的時候有特別提到，竹科身為我們國家科技產業戰略的一個高地，應該說它的執行率算是高的，所以當然這一案我也是支持可以解凍啦！但是我想要請教的是，竹科現在在跟國際的合作上，有沒有一些具體的目標，因為我想這一案其實也關係到園區的管理業務以及招商跟國際的合作，所以這個部分有沒有一個具體的說法可以提供給我們？"],["吳主任委員誠文：竹科現在是全世界的標竿，所以我們跟國際之間的往來是非常頻繁、非常密切的，也一直被邀請到國際協助、指導要發展園區的地方，當然我們不能幫外國的政府去開發園區，但是在這種協助的過程當中，其實會把我們園區開發的廠商也順便帶過去，增加我們對外產業連結的實力。這一點的確很謝謝委員，我們會努力協助產業能夠往外拓展，這個會幫我們連結很多友善的國家於將來跟臺灣合作，除了科學園區之外，其實連帶的經濟部科技園區也同步在進行當中。"],["主席：請劉書彬委員。"],["劉委員書彬：謝謝主席。第三案、第四案、第五案是涉及到竹科、中科及南科，在3個科學園區的案子當中，只看到中科有出現淨零排放、循環經濟，剛才郭昱晴委員有提到循環經濟，可是最重要的，因為主委也提到科學園區是我們科技跟產業發展的國際標竿園區，對不對？可是2050年的淨零碳排怎麼沒有在你們的目標當中提到，是忘記還是怎麼樣？淨零碳排並沒有在你們的報告當中呈現，所以先就竹科來講，你們淨零碳排的目標有沒有放進去？若有的話，你們淨零碳排的目標是什麼？目前的竹科，大家都知道耗水跟耗電的半導體產業都集中在那邊，你們的目標是怎麼訂的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請管理局長回答。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。"],["胡副局長世民：謝謝委員的提問，我先講第一個，竹科在今年下半年有一個資源再生中心的運作，這是廠商的部分。第二個，在資源再利用的部分，竹科已經達到93%，我們今年的目標是儘量減少掩埋。第三個，我們也一直在跟園區推廣，大概有11家已經承諾在2040年RE100會提前達到，我們一直跟廠商有新的技術，或者是廠商能夠大廠帶小廠，相關的技術我們一定配合，事實上有十餘家廠商承諾，像環球晶圓、台積電，他們都承諾2040年或更早之前達到RE100的部分。"],["劉委員書彬：請問一下，排碳、耗電的部分，竹科占全臺灣的多少？這邊的排碳量到底是多少？你們怎麼去達成？你剛說這是其中的一個目標，可是如果到2050年，你們有沒有一個路徑圖可以呈現出來？"],["胡副局長世民：排碳大概有幾個部分，即範疇一、範疇二、範疇三，直接電力的部分，我想很多廠商是購買綠電憑證來取代。第二個，跟委員也在辦公室說明，就是我們一直希望廠商能夠有綠電或是其他的替代能源，這部分廠商都非常樂意去使用跟採購。"],["劉委員書彬：當初講到淨零碳排部分，我記得好像不是您，您是新準備要就任嗎？"],["胡副局長世民：對。"],["劉委員書彬：這部分我覺得應該要逐漸呈現出每年度的排碳量，不然就是RE100要在這邊呈現。關於耗水的部分，希望你們有節水的部分，可是你們這邊也沒有提到，只有中科有提到，竹科是沒有提到的。"],["胡副局長世民：委員，是不是事後我們把針對電跟節水的資料補送到委員辦公室？謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。另外，中科的部分，同樣也是在耗電的部分。"],["許局長茂新：跟委員報告，我們目前的耗電大概是1,580MW左右，我們在節電部分都有輔導廠商做節電措施，以及未來包括淨零的部分，廠商也都一直從他們的綠電、從他們的機臺來做，當然如果園區一直擴展，我們也不可諱言，用電量還是會增加，但是用電量增加，我們會從技術上面來克服，這是第一個。第二個是水的部分，我們目前一個月大概是在十六點多萬噸左右，我們每年一直在做的就是節水的輔導，所以這些大廠大部分製程的回收，節水的部分大概都可以回收到87%，我們也會再持續輔導廠商來做節電跟節水的部分。"],["劉委員書彬：不過還是希望你們有每年度的呈現，不然淨零碳排真的是達不到，不只是我們國內，國際也達不到。"],["許局長茂新：是。"],["劉委員書彬：也希望之後也給書面報告或是來說明，好嗎？"],["許局長茂新：是。"],["劉委員書彬：同樣的，下一個就是南科，在淨零碳排的部分，你們的目標是怎麼樣訂的？"],["鄭局長秀絨：半導體產業在環評裡面都有承諾2050年要達到百分之百使用再生能源，在這之前確實有路徑的目標，環境部有控管工業部門每年減碳的足跡，目前也是跟竹、中科一樣，是協助廠商做製程的改善，鼓勵他們加入RE100，我們希望雖然產值一直在增加，可是單位面積產量的用電是下降的，讓電不是一直跟著產量上去，而是緩緩的不要影響太多用電。另外，剛剛像經濟部在講的推展創能、儲能，這些我們也鼓勵廠商使用創能跟儲能，譬如太陽能或SOFC，以及園區有幾家開始在做儲能。至於用水方面，南科是最早用工業用水做再生水，以及透過臺南市政府的協助，我們大概也用了六、七萬噸的再生水，目標是以後可能三分之一都會用到再生水，未來如果有海淡水，我們也會承諾使用海淡水，以上。"],["劉委員書彬：我再請問一下，你們當然都用RE100，它是綠能，看起來是沒有排碳，但是RE100，臺灣的綠能是夠的嗎？不排碳的能源是夠的嗎？這部分你們跟經濟部有沒有確認？因為之前我們到新竹科學園區考察的時候，裡面實驗的研究中心表示其實增加的部分有問題，但是我想這部分我們還是支持應該要解凍，希望你們會後就相關部分能夠再來做報告，我們希望一起來監督，也促進我們能夠符合國際需求的節能，也就是淨零碳排，好不好？謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，遵照委員的建議。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請張雅琳委員。"],["張委員雅琳：我的是在第四案的部分，我們目前大部分都是使用LINE，現在災防科技中心也有一個LINE的示警服務，我想要確認落雨小幫手的app還有需要持續維護嗎？因為好像看起來大家都會使用LINE了嘛，對不對？是不是就不需要再持續維護這一個app？這樣會多花一些錢。至於第八案的部分，其實我今天早上也有質詢，就是關於我們的一些科普活動，除了今天我講的本土語言支持之外，還有一個我來不及講的，就是有關對於女性的一些科研活動，這個部分我想了解一下今年有沒有相關的規劃？有沒有一個初步的規劃可以簡單說明一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，說明小幫手的部分。"],["林副主任李耀：跟委員報告，第一個是關於LINE的官方帳號，因為這是一個公益帳號，主要是內容我們不斷地根據所有的情資在提供整合，現在我們也把落雨小幫手做到LINE官方帳號裡面去了，所以app的部分跟LINE的部分是我們的多元管道，讓所有的民眾都有辦法拿到這個內容，其他部分也包括像Google等等，我們都有這些資訊，利用各種不同的管道讓全臺灣大概兩、三百萬的人都能夠得到這些資訊，所以不是只有單一一個管道。"],["主席：好……"],["吳主任委員誠文：女性……"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，使用落雨小幫手的人到底有多少呢？現在看起來是29萬7,000，持續有在增加嗎？還是主要是在……"],["林副主任李耀：我跟委員報告，其實我們已經做到LINE官方網站裡面了，我今天早上看是180萬。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，那個「落雨小幫手」現在民眾的反應非常非常好，所以我們會繼續加強。"],["張委員雅琳：應該是有兩個，一個是LINE官方，一個是app，我現在指的是app部分還需要持續來做嗎？還是就直接處理LINE的部分就好？"],["林副主任李耀：跟委員報告，現在目前還是會持續，因為維護費不是很高，我們只是維護這個app而不是開發，我們會維護app是因為很多人喜歡用app，每個人使用習慣不一樣，所以我們會儘量讓多元管道並存，讓所有人都能夠使用到這個資訊。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，女性科普的部分。"],["李處長旺龍：跟委員報告，我們有五個主軸，裡面有一個主軸是針對提高女性對科學的興趣，所以這個每年都有固定徵件。"],["張委員雅琳：徵件？可是以前都會有一些主題活動，不是只有徵件吧？以前會有一些宣傳或是講座等等。"],["蔡處長妙慈：委員，針對資安的部分，我們今年5月其實有辦了一個「資安女婕思」的活動，這已經辦了第四屆還是第五屆了，每年都會有高中跟大學的女學生來參與這個資安相關的闖關、遊戲。"],["張委員雅琳：我記得我之前就有說過，希望是不是可以再早一點點，可以有一些國中生，因為高中都已經分組了。"],["蔡處長妙慈：還有一些其他的。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，這個等等再提，基本上我OK啦，但是我想再仔細的確認，我之前就一直在講，我們應該要更早就去做這件事情，不然高中都已經分組了，以現在的學制來說，基本上就已經很難有機會再接觸了，那我們在辦公室再好好仔細討論，看看有沒有什麼可以對國中生的部分來做，好不好？謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，關於這個案子，本席也有問題想要確認一下，當然我是支持解凍，也支持剛剛張雅琳委員的說法，其實我們也鼓勵主委還有同仁，因為剛剛主委也有提到，你們可能在明年度預算編列時有一些擔憂，這個我們也理解，因為大家有不同的想法，但是以撙節開支的角度來看，這也許是一個好的時機看看是不是有一些計畫的執行成效、時間點或許可以被更好的計畫來取代，我想每一滴錢……當然剛剛有說這個app的維護費不是很高，我們也能理解，但可能有其他的專案，這個板塊可以依據時間來做一點調整，不管是園區或者是國科會自己內部的計畫，這是第一點；第二點，園區電力充足或不充足的問題，我也跟主委交流一下，其實我們也考察過某園區，我就不明確講是哪個園區，在考察的過程當中，其實有相關人員表達確實是有缺電的情形，我想這應該不是意識形態的問題，具體有遇到，也有人提出，還是希望主委能夠關心跟關切一下。原因其實就在於我想要提出的第三點，因為剛剛有一些回復是廠商可以購買碳權，對不對？或者是我們可以節電，但事實上為了額外能源要付出的成本跟代價，對廠商來講都是一個壓力跟負擔，如果不去考量這個的話，當然你要買一大堆的碳權，買到最後連利潤都沒了，那當然可以淨零啊！可是顯然不是，我想一個合理的能源政策確認還是很重要，所以還是想給主委一個機會，因為我剛剛有詢問您，您認不認同黃仁勳所講的：臺灣絕對要投資核能，使用核能不應該被污名化。您認不認同？我覺得這當然有各自的意識形態或不同的想法，大家都是自由的。但是剛剛也有委員在質詢時提到，黃仁勳接下來要跟國科會合作，我們不能說：要合作啊！蓋AI基礎設施好棒棒！但對於人家的想法就不予表達意見，這個是不是可以再給主委一個機會？因為你們現在已經是partner，某種程度在AI上是partner，您認不認同國科會在AI研究上的partner所說的：臺灣絕對要投資核能，使用核能不應該被污名化。您認不認同他這個說法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我想黃仁勳這樣講當然有他的觀點、他的立場，我們都尊重啦！但是我還是再次強調，未來潔淨能源的發展，我們一定會兼顧各種層面，成本也是一個考量，我們都不排除所有的新能源、潔淨能源，而且未來新園區的開發，我也會在園區內開發一個民眾可以放心且認同的電廠，將其放在裡面，所以這個我們都在規劃進行當中。主席提醒我們的事情，我們其實沒有反對，但不一定是絕對要用核能，我不能這樣講，因為我們要評估各種可能性，如果有更便宜的好能源，我們當然會使用，不一定要用那個方式。"],["主席：對不起，因為您這個partner說：臺灣絕對要投資核能。所以您就是支持他有這樣說法的空間，但是不加以認同或不認同？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["主席：好。對不起，我為什麼提出這一案，是因為主委您的態度會影響到園區的招商，因為臺灣接下來應該要有越來越多的廠商進駐並發展我們的園區……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我了解。"],["主席：如果您的態度是模稜兩可，或者是讓大家覺得中立性有質疑的空間，我覺得這會有所影響，所以我特別在這一案提出的原因在這裡。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝主席，但是我沒有模稜兩可，我們為了要提供充足的電力，一定把所有可能的能源都會含在裡面，所以並沒有排除任何一種，並沒有排除。"],["主席：好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會研究可行性，讓民眾也認同才有辦法做。"],["主席：而且一定要顧慮到廠商的成本……"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然。"],["主席：如果你的成本是無限的，那當然一定夠用，當然一定淨零……"],["吳主任委員誠文：一定會顧慮成本。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","第三案，各位委員有沒有意見？（無）好，如果沒有意見，第三案就准予動支，提報院會。","接下來進行第四案，第四案跟第五案一起，因為其實剛剛都有討論了，第四案是在251頁，第五案是在257頁，剛才應該也算是討論過了，我還是請教一下各位委員，有無意見？（無）好，謝謝。第四案、第五案准予動支，提報院會。","解凍案5案審查完竣，均准予動支，提報院會。","接著處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案計1案，請宣讀。","案由：平埔原住民族群身分認定法制作業迫在眉睫，行政院已提出《平埔原住民族群身分法草案》以求周延保障平埔原住民族群身分認定事宜。草案中有關如何追溯認定平埔原住民族群身分，其中一款為「申請民族之成員本人或其直系血親尊親屬，於公私立大專校院或學術研究機構之研究成果內，有足以證明其屬於臺灣南島語系民族之資訊。」此款認定方法，乃參考總統府歷史正義及轉型正義委員會歷屆平埔代表委員相關提案建議。至於何種學術研究資料該當得以佐證之客觀歷史紀錄，將仰賴語言學、歷史學、人類學等相關領域之學術權威著作。建請國科會會同中研院及各設有民族學系之大專校院，盤點目前共有多少可供人民查閱之「平埔原住民族群身分認定佐證學術資料」，並於一個月內向立法院教育及文化委員會提出報告。","提案人：林宜瑾","連署人：吳沛憶　　陳秀寳　　郭昱晴"],["主席：請問提案委員或各位在場委員有無補充說明或意見？"],["林委員宜瑾：我來講一下。"],["主席：請林宜瑾召委。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席，我為什麼要提這個提案，因為依照憲法法庭111憲判字第17號判決的宣判意旨，我們必須在今年10月前要完成平埔族群原住民身分認定的修法，可是平埔族群的身分認定具備哪些條件？除了現在日治時期戶籍謄本有特別把民眾的身分做註記以外，那時候有註記熟番，就是平埔族，所以要怎麼樣看得出你是不是有平埔族的身分，其實就很仰賴一些學術研究留下來的資料，雖然平埔原住民身分認定的草案還沒有開始審，但行政院草案已經送到立法院來了，我們也看到在追溯身分認定的條件上，其中有一項叫檢附學術研究資料，院版有這樣寫。國科會歷年來都致力於原住民之相關研究，也補助了不少研究案，所以我才會在這邊拜託國科會，會同中研院及設有相關系所的院校，讓所有學研單位動起來，整理有關臺灣民族學、人類學的資料，以盤點目前可供查閱的平埔原住民族身分認定的佐證學術資料。由於10月是修法的deadline，立法院當然也要進行修法，所以目前很迫切需要這份資料，因此才拜託國科會於一個月內提出。不過剛剛主辦單位說真的有點困難，且彙整相關的學術資料也需要時間……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為單位很多。"],["林委員宜瑾：本來跟我商量改為三個月，我說不然兩個半月，我已經很有彈性了……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：這樣的話國科會能不能同意？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會遵照辦理。接下來因為碰到暑假，而且牽涉到很多學校，所以要花一點時間。好，我們就兩個半月提出。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：說明都完成了，將「一個月」改為「兩個半月」。大家都沒有意見的話，本案就修正通過，謝謝。各提案如有委員補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄，也謝謝非常多委員同仁的支持。","接著繼續進行質詢。請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接下來請鄭天財委員質詢，鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接下來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162106","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162106","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc13ad9e3e4274fd4261219069fb8f2289f531422321b8e3e87a4b7ee112536bc485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:28:45 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有請吳主委還有太空中心太空阿伯吳主任好 請吳主委吳主任備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":17.414,"end":33.145,"text":"主委好首先本席因為今天是處理解凍案所以本席還是要對於去年藍白提案大動我們各科學園區的預算業務費的這件事情表示最深的遺憾"},{"start":33.985,"end":41.112,"text":"因為科學園區的業務費我們都很清楚是它是直接 間接影響我們園區裡頭的廠商尤其是這個設備養護這種項目更是攸關這個關鍵設施的正常運作那"},{"start":49.52,"end":76.129,"text":"而且這是科學園區的這個凍結案去年國民黨在提案單上複製貼上被抓到所以當然很清楚知道就是說他們某程度把這個凍結案特別是這個項目當作是兒戲來看所以確實是感到很遺憾那我們一定是支持解凍那當然該有的監督也不會少所以"},{"start":77.469,"end":82.433,"text":"接下來就來進行我今天關心的議題那我仍然關心太空發展那因為賴總統有視察我們福衛八號的進展跟產業深耕計畫的成果那總統有說福衛八號在開發過程所累積的這個技術跟經驗會結合台灣的既有的資通訊啊 精密機械啊然後還有電機的產業優勢來協助這個太空發展"},{"start":106.713,"end":119.261,"text":"的產業來練兵來穩健整個我們邁向國際太空市場的腳步那我想第三期的國家太空科技發展長城計畫這個我們現在在致力推動"},{"start":122.463,"end":139.708,"text":"那據報導好像福衛八號的第一顆衛星也預計在今年的十月會正式升空服役那我想台灣太空的產業產值我想不比其他的太空大國可是我想根據太空中心的回應整體而言"},{"start":141.488,"end":151.054,"text":"每年的產值是逐年增加的那想要請教主委跟主任的是說隨著福衛八號的一顆衛星的升空我們未來是不是有更多的規劃來帶動國內太空相關產業的這個產值的提升同時我們看到最近英國的工黨台灣之友會的訪團有要來台灣也要訪問這個太空中心"},{"start":168.564,"end":177.353,"text":"那所以我也想請教說我們到底近期有沒有跟國際的一些交流的規劃先主委回答再主任回答"},{"start":177.93,"end":202.305,"text":"好 謝謝委員的確我們這個福威八號是第一顆衛星我們陸續會打總共會有八顆那將來都是會我們自製的以前都大量仰賴美國現在都是我們自己設計自己製造目前自製率已經達到84%所以未來這個遙測衛星的技術台灣幾乎就可以完全自己掌握了"},{"start":203.045,"end":215.512,"text":"至於未來還有福衛9號,我們會把光學的探測,將來還會再加上核心孔徑雷達的技術,所以全天候都可以來監測我們的國土"},{"start":219.375,"end":248.675,"text":"那個通信衛星的部分我們現在已經開始在設計了那兩年後就會開始打第一顆所以這個都按照我們的規劃在進行當中那其中跟國外的這種合作現在也因為我們的實力慢慢展現了所以更多的這個國際的合作的夥伴願意來跟台灣合作了我們如果沒有實力沒有人會來跟我們談所以實力在於我們產業的建置所以我們現在太空三喜的計畫修正案最大的亮點就是把我們的產業鏈慢慢把它組起來"},{"start":249.916,"end":273.474,"text":"臺灣的產業實力全世界都知道所以跟我們合作對他們一定會有好處的那我們也因為跟他們合作以後將來我們自主的設計能力也會提升所以這個是確保我們未來產業發展以及國家安全一個很重要的策略改變謝謝委員火箭的部分你來排我補充一下就是工黨他是今天下午會去太空中心訪問"},{"start":276.415,"end":299.32,"text":"對 除了這個以外 未來還有什麼要跟國際交流的計畫其實像火箭的研發我們採用的未來是液態引擎這一方面我想很多技術台灣其實不一定完全被變所以我們透過很多國際合作的方式來取得部分的技術讓我們更快所以我們往這方面一直在擴展一些國際合作好 謝謝"},{"start":302.781,"end":329.527,"text":"那再來想要跟主委探討這個運動科技的議題運動部要在今年9月9號就要掛牌那我想跟運科中心合作來進行運動科技的研發那來發展相關的產業然後並繼轉同時可以讓這個運科知識來普及全民我想這個是國科會任重道遠"},{"start":330.487,"end":337.272,"text":"那可是我們看到國科會持續執行這個精準運動科學研究專案暨擴大運科能量這個計畫而且我們今年並要用這個台灣運動文化研究專案計畫這個題目向學研增建那去年我在預算審查的時候也有提案就是說我們要求運動科研的成果要普及這個全民那甚至要對身心障礙者有照顧"},{"start":359.369,"end":368.352,"text":"那所以我們要針對如何讓運科的成果來普及那首先要請教說未來我們除了相關的成果來寄轉給產業界那我們是不是也會會同運動部未來的運動部跟輔導來輔導地方政府體育局的相關局處來進行運科技術或知識的推廣"},{"start":384.238,"end":402.837,"text":"也就是說我們讓地方政府去執行讓技術跟成果可以深入這個地方社區然後再來就是說國科會的這個所謂的科普環島列車是不是也來加入說因為他加入這個容易推廣的這個運科知識跟小朋友做介紹 以上幾個問題"},{"start":404.218,"end":418.062,"text":"好 非常感謝林委員林委員其實上次的這個建議我們都納進來了我們現在除了在運動科技這種科技研發的計畫持續在推動之外我們的確也是在文化面希望把這個運動跟文化能夠結合因為讓人民"},{"start":421.903,"end":438.887,"text":"更願意去親近這個運動更願意從事運動所以全民運動的部分我們透過這個科技的發展創造很多的那個工具跟這個方法讓民眾更容易使用這個運動的場域來增進自己的這個技能那以及我們在這個應用跟產業的發展也希望能夠創造我們的科技業願意來把運動這個領域能夠變成是它的市場"},{"start":450.189,"end":479.549,"text":"它的市场发展更多的科技产品来协助这个运动的发展那刚刚有提到运动部的成立我的确也是除了我们国科会在支持学界之外我也支持将来运动部现在还在体育署就是我们国家运动科学中心我也支持他们将来要进到运动科技领域来做科技技术的开发协助我们的运动员以及我们产业的发展这一部分我们都遵照委员的建议"},{"start":480.109,"end":496.495,"text":"好 那科普環島列車科普環島列車把運動科技加進來這個其實我也跟我們的那個李處長也提了所以我們也會邀請相關的這個團隊會進來特別是那個在台南有個環球球實驗室那我們會邀請他們進來"},{"start":499.036,"end":512.784,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝那另外再接點時間來討論一下就是說我有注意到國科會有根據行政院一個六大核心戰略產業推動的方案國防及戰略產業我們會持續來推動所謂的"},{"start":516.366,"end":532.31,"text":"學研中心的專案計畫那它是以跨校跨領域的建置推動這個國防科技的研究平台來進行所謂的智慧國防科技研發可是同時我們是知道說因為國防科技的應用也要顧及國安那國防部近期要研擬設置接觸機密資格認證的機制"},{"start":539.452,"end":551.037,"text":"就是說未來將以涉密的等級來定期查核以防止滲透那舉例來說像無人機跟衛星的研發它都是所謂的國家核心科技戰略產業那萬一在研發跟應用的過程某個環節的關鍵資料被洩漏那後果當然不堪設想那所以我有疑問的是說軍民良用的這個科學技術太多"},{"start":565.023,"end":572.466,"text":"所以部分國防科技的納管就相當重要我們知道說國科會有建立國家核心關鍵技術保護的清單用來強化國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密的保護那不過說在這個智慧國防科技研發的學研階段我們是不是有將類似國防部這種接觸機密資格認證的機制"},{"start":589.092,"end":602.396,"text":"或者說國科會現在有沒有相關的法令來規範國防科技研發的這種機密的查核我們現在按照行政院的規範有在進行當中現在都有這個機密的查核都有謝謝主委非常感謝委員謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時28分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委，還有太空中心「太空阿伯」吳主任。"],["主席：請吳主委、吳主任備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。因為今天是處理解凍案，所以本席還是要對於去年藍白提案大凍各科學園區的預算、業務費這件事情，表示最深的遺憾，因為我們都很清楚，科學園區的業務費是直接、間接影響園區裡頭的廠商，尤其是設備養護這種項目，更是攸關關鍵設施的正常運作。而且這次科學園區的凍結案，國民黨把去年的提案單複製貼上被抓到，當然很清楚知道，他們某個程度把凍結案、特別是把這個項目當作兒戲來看，確實是讓人感到很遺憾，我們一定是支持解凍，當然該有的監督也不會少，所以接下來就來進行我今天關心的議題。","首先，我仍然關心太空發展，因為賴總統有去視察福衛八號的進展跟產業深耕計畫的成果；總統有說，福衛八號在開發過程所累積的技術跟經驗，會結合臺灣既有的資通訊、精密機械還有電機的產業優勢，協助太空發展產業練兵，以穩健我們整個邁向國際太空市場的腳步。","第三期的國家太空科技發展長程計畫，現在我們正致力推動。據報導，福衛八號的第一顆衛星也預計在今年10月會正式升空服役，臺灣太空產業的產值不比其他的太空大國，可是根據太空中心的回應，整體而言，它每年的產值是逐年增加的，想要請教主委跟主任，隨著福衛八號第一顆衛星的升空，我們未來是不是有更多的規劃，以帶動國內太空相關產業產值的提升？同時，我們看到最近英國工黨臺灣之友會的訪團要來臺灣，也要訪問太空中心，所以我想請教，到底近期我們有沒有一些跟國際交流的規劃？先請主委回答，然後再請主任回答。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。的確這是我們福衛八號的第一顆衛星，而且我們陸續還會再打，總共會有8顆，而且將來都是我們自製的，以前都大量仰賴美國，現在都是我們自己設計、自己製造，目前自製率已經達到84%，所以未來遙測衛星的技術，臺灣幾乎可以完全自己掌握了。至於未來還有福衛九號，除了光學探測，將來還會再加上合成孔徑雷達的技術，所以全天候都可以監測我們的國土。","通訊衛星的部分，我們現在已經開始在設計了，兩年後就會開始打第一顆，所以這些都按照我們的規劃在進行當中，其中跟國外的合作，因為我們的實力慢慢展現了，所以更多國際合作夥伴都願意來跟臺灣合作，我們如果沒有實力，沒有人會來跟我們談，所以實力在於我們產業的建置，所以我們現在太空三期計畫修正案的最大亮點，就是把我們的產業鏈慢慢地築起來，臺灣的產業實力全世界都知道，所以跟我們合作對他們一定會有好處，我們也因為跟他們合作以後，將來我們自主的設計能力也會提升，所以這個是確保我們未來產業發展以及國家安全一個很重要的策略改變。至於火箭的部分，請主任來說明。"],["吳主任宗信：我補充一下，就是那個工黨的訪團今天下午會去太空中心訪問，我等一下還要回去那裡。"],["林委員宜瑾：對！對！對！除了這個以外，未來還有什麼要跟國際交流的計畫？"],["吳主任宗信：其實像火箭的研發，我們未來採用的是液態引擎，關於這一方面，我想很多的技術臺灣其實不一定完全備便，所以我們透過很多國際合作的方式來取得部分的技術讓我們能夠進展得更快，總之，我們有一直往這方面在擴展一些國際合作。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。","再來想要跟主委探討運動科技的議題，運動部在今年9月9號就要掛牌，屆時會跟運科中心合作，以進行運動科技的研發、發展相關的產業並且技轉，同時讓運科知識普及全民，我想國科會任重道遠，可是我們看到國科會持續執行精準運動科學研究專案暨擴大運科能量計畫，而且我們今年要用臺灣運動文化研究專案計畫這個題目向學研徵件，去年我在預算審查的時候也有提案要求運動科研的成果要普及全民，甚至要對身心障礙者有所照顧。所以我們如何讓運科的成果普及呢？","首先要請教的是，未來除了相關的成果技轉給產業界，我們是不是也會會同未來的運動部來輔導地方政府體育局的相關局處，進行運科技術或知識的推廣？也就是說，我們讓地方政府去執行，讓技術跟成果可以深入地方社區。再來，國科會所謂的科普環島列車，是不是也能加入容易推廣的運科知識，跟小朋友介紹呢？以上幾個問題請說明。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，非常感謝林委員，其實上次林委員的建議，我們都納進來了，我們現在除了運動科技研發計畫持續在推動之外，的確也希望在文化面，能讓運動跟文化結合，讓人民更願意去親近運動，更願意從事運動。所以全民運動的部分，我們透過科技的發展，創造很多的工具跟方法，讓民眾更容易使用運動的場域，來增進自己的技能；還有在應用跟產業的發展上，也希望能夠創造出讓我們科技業願意把運動領域變成是它的市場，讓它的市場可以發展出更多的科技產品，來協助我們運動的發展。","剛剛有提到運動部的成立，的確，除了我們國科會在支持學界之外，將來的運動部（現在還是體育署）、國家運動科學中心，我也支持他們將來要進到運動科技領域，來做科技技術的開發，協助我們的運動員以及相關產業的發展，這一部分我們都遵照委員的建議在做。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，科普環島列車呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：關於科普環島列車把運動科技也加進來，這個部分其實我也跟我們李處長提了，所以我們也會邀請相關的團隊進來，特別是臺南有個傳接球實驗室，我們也會邀請他們進來。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。","另外再借一點時間來討論一下，我有注意到國科會有根據行政院六大核心戰略產業推動方案中的國防及戰略產業，持續推動所謂的學研中心專案計畫，它是跨校、跨領域建置推動國防科技研究平臺，進行所謂的智慧國防科技研發。可是我們也知道，國防科技的應用也要顧及國安，國防部近期要研擬設置接觸機密資格認證的機制，未來將依涉密的等級來定期查核以防止滲透，舉例來說，像無人機跟衛星的研發都是所謂的國家核心科技戰略產業，萬一在研發跟應用的過程，某一個環節的關鍵資料被洩漏，後果當然不堪設想！所以我有疑問的是，軍民兩用的科學技術太多，所以部分國防科技的納管就相當重要，我們知道國科會有建立國家核心關鍵技術保護的清單，用來強化國家核心關鍵技術相關營業秘密的保護，但在智慧國防科技研發的學研階段，我們是不是有類似國防部這種接觸機密資格認證的機制，或者是國科會現在有沒有相關的法令來規範這種國防科技研發機密的查核？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在按照行政院的規範，是有在進行當中，現在都是有的。"],["林委員宜瑾：就是有這方面機密的查核，都有嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在都有。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，OK，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：非常感謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc12aaa0d9a87ccc9d91219069fb8f2289f531422321b8e3e874318f82bdde02a7a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請主委有請主委 被質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14.445,"end":34.815,"text":"主委好我其實跟這個太空發展法對我來講有一段故事蠻有感情那最主要是因為我在2020年2月1號進入到立法院我人生中第一次接受人民陳情是南田火箭案"},{"start":35.735,"end":63.361,"text":"所以我在2月19號的時候特別去跟他們見面我很驚訝我以為他們部落反對這個東西結果沒有想到部落的村長理事長部落會議主席甚至是鄉長議員他們都非常非常的贊同他們希望他們能夠擁有這個產業所以呢我人生中隔天第一次做"},{"start":64.401,"end":92.272,"text":"部會的協調也是為了南田火箭案甚至我人生第一次上質詢台第一次的質詢也是對科技部所以那個時候我認為要解決這個問題就必須要找到主管機關那所以當時呢就是希望科技部來做主管機關那後來呢就推動這個法制那為什麼我要特別這樣講因為我發現"},{"start":93.772,"end":115.581,"text":"我們在做這件事情的時候我們通常都會使用到原住民族的傳統領域他的土地所以可能很多時候我們不會不太知道我們有一些法令或者是要如何跟在地族人溝通我舉個例子當時的三月你們公告了一個"},{"start":116.821,"end":130.539,"text":"短期科研探空火箭發射場域的安全規範草案引起嘩然為什麼 因為你們沒有做部落智商那當地人呢 就非常的不高興"},{"start":132.096,"end":148.561,"text":"第二個當時也有一個影片在地方在傳就是某個立委他做了一個影片告訴大家說火箭有多可怕世界各個國家發展火箭有多可怕他獨獨影片裡面就沒有中國"},{"start":149.921,"end":177.211,"text":"那我也幫助你們到地方讓他們知道不同類型的火箭長怎麼樣原來科研火箭沒那麼可怕所以呢也很謝謝你們就是最後我們在地的溝通做好了大家也很高興讓蓄海成為我們科研火箭的發射場域那我現在為什麼要特別講因為當年我就有在立法的過程中特別去訴求"},{"start":178.591,"end":202.267,"text":"當時的院版第八條說 涉及原住民族權益依原基法及相關法令辦理我當時有特別提醒 不是只有原住民的問題 而是在地居民我們不論到哪裡 在地居民本來就應該要知情 要參與所以我的版本有特別提到 如果有限制人民權利 應事先說明及溝通"},{"start":203.267,"end":231.484,"text":"進行充分民眾參與機制那非常感謝後來我們的發射場域的這個執法有特別在第四條有去做這樣的一個修訂就是要公告選址場址舉辦公聽會還要來書面通知除了機關團體還有利害關係人到場那我很感謝那當時第二個訴求就是在地產業的部分你們的願板"},{"start":233.005,"end":238.031,"text":"當時是寫說政府應推動太空產業發展獎勵及輔導產業培育產業人才等促進太空產業發展事項我當時有特別提醒"},{"start":245.731,"end":263.415,"text":"不是只有培育這些產業人才要跟地方共融所以呢我希望像我的版本說要完善產業及周邊環境的發展所需要的基礎建設要僱用一定比例的在地人力要有地方產業鏈的營造在地產業生活圈那我也非常感謝後來的太空發展法第14條也有把這樣的意見納入到我們的條文當中好"},{"start":273.897,"end":298.113,"text":"那我要跟主委還有太空中心主任說我今天之所以會講這個問題是因為在我們今天的解凍報告也有提到第一案我們已經在114年今年的3月26日選址作業的第四次審查會議已經確認也公布了國家發射場域選定在屏東縣滿洲鄉的九鵬村可是我們來看一下這個地圖這個地圖"},{"start":304.097,"end":330.569,"text":"我們看一下 我們的國家發射場域滿洲鄉九棚村 就在它的旁邊有一個高氏部落 它是屬於牡丹鄉有一個巴搖部落 它是屬於牡丹跟滿洲鄉的交界但是呢 它也是屬於滿洲鄉好 那我們再看另外一張地圖再放大一點看 它鄰近的部落還有科研火箭發射場域 旭海"},{"start":331.289,"end":358.147,"text":"然後呢再往前走也是你們這次選址之一就是達仁鄉的南田你看他們其實都在一個連帶上面是一個共同的生活圈可是我們來看喔最近我不知道主委跟太空中心主任有沒有掌握到地方有聲音囉在5月16號有一個地方的青年意見領袖他寫了一篇貼文"},{"start":359.508,"end":385.748,"text":"那他說什麼呢 他說其實關於太空發射場域在我家附近的八瑤灣火箭發射基地喔他沒有講九棚發射基地喔 他講的是八瑤灣發射基地因為那個地方確實就是八瑤部落的出海口 八瑤灣"},{"start":387.269,"end":415.829,"text":"然後他說 我不排斥地方的發展 但我更重視地方協調與尊重所以他說 火箭燃料會不會造成我們八堯部落的空污 我不知道部落賴以為生的紅土系河流 火箭廠排出的廢水會不會影響這些魚蝦蟹回遊部落 我不知道當火箭升空 是正常航行嗎會不會掉落下來 或失速掉到我的部落 我不知道"},{"start":416.309,"end":442.631,"text":"我們在這場火箭場競賽的過程中我的部落扮演什麼角色我們也不知道所以地方是不知道 不知道 不知道但是他不是要阻礙產業發展他只是覺得說為什麼都沒有人跟我們講那這個問題發生在什麼呢因為我們看到園民會在3月11號有回函給牡丹鄉公所因為牡丹鄉公所他想問"},{"start":444.244,"end":471.912,"text":"到底這個有沒有涵蓋到我們牡丹鄉這個國家發射場域但是原民會回答他說這件事要由滿洲鄉確認因為我們是選定在九棚所以要由滿洲鄉確認現在牡丹鄉就回函給牡丹的代表會因為是地方的代表們想知道這件事所以他就把原民會的回答說原民會回答我們說這件事要問滿洲鄉代表會"},{"start":472.873,"end":487.089,"text":"滿洲鄉有沒有問呢 滿洲鄉也有問他問誰呢 他問的是園民會園民會回答他說不用因為你們九棚不是原住民的部落所以不用所以一整個事情其實我只是要提醒"},{"start":488.126,"end":505.577,"text":"在地的溝通還是要充分做好那第二個就是我關心的從南田到旭海然後一直到現在的九棚它的附近八瑤高市那這些他們都是比鄰近的部落"},{"start":506.497,"end":522.277,"text":"他們 我們國科會有沒有太空產業生活圈的想像規劃那未來我們的太空產業鏈有南科 有平科到底到了我們那個地方是什麼樣的一個關係部落都很想知道"},{"start":522.717,"end":548.427,"text":"所以今天來這邊就是要特別的提醒是不是在地溝通的部分我們還是要來進行然後太空產業生活圈它目前的規劃情形還是要來說明所以我希望國科會 太空中心 園民會有沒有辦法就地方所關心的這些事情能夠來我們辦公室說明那當然我們更關心的是太空發展法有了它的未來"},{"start":550.377,"end":572.799,"text":"我們剛剛也聽到大家很關心像40年前美國總統雷根他提到的太空戰用衛星去摧毀衛星現在已經變成一個真實的戰場我們也很清楚知道地面上的世界越來越依賴太空中的軌道衛星所以我們很關心我們的太空發展法很關心我們的國家發射場域"},{"start":573.76,"end":598.067,"text":"未來正規的戰爭開打之前的灰色地帶就是干擾或摧毀通訊那我是希望說台灣的太空計畫要尋求跟美國這一些太空強權要形成一個衛星通訊的互保機制那這些都是我們非常關心的但是萬戰高樓平地起我相信跟我們在地的溝通這個部分會影響我們未來整個太空的一個發展"},{"start":604.029,"end":631.275,"text":"那主委還有我們主任有在這邊有沒有一點點回應就可以好謝謝吳委員我想我們從頭到尾都是用非常開放的態度跟在地在溝通那因為依據這個屏東縣政府跟台東縣政府他們的這個要求我們所有的每一件事都做到了那吳委員現在提出來就是說我們還要再擴大跟這個鄰近的這個部落來溝通這一點我也答應謝謝主委"},{"start":632.915,"end":650.582,"text":"後續一定會辦到好 謝謝主委的建議至於這個發展照顧到這個生活圈在地適合的這種產業的發展這個其實本來就在我的規劃當中那各種各樣的建設以及產業的推動一定會按照這個委員的建議來進行謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":815,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。其實太空發展法對我來說有一段故事，滿有感情的。最主要是因為我在2020年2月1日進到立法院，我人生中第一次接受人民陳情是南田火箭案，所以我在2月19日的時候特別去跟他們見面。我很驚訝，我以為他們部落反對這個東西，結果沒有想到部落的村長、理事長、部落會議主席，甚至鄉長、議員都非常非常贊同，希望能夠擁有這個產業。所以隔天，我人生中第一次進行部會協調，也是為了南田火箭案，甚至我人生中第一次上質詢臺、第一次的質詢也是針對科技部，那個時候我認為要解決這個問題就必須找到主管機關，所以當時就是希望科技部來做主管機關，後來就推動這個法制。","為什麼我要特別這樣講？因為我發現我們在做這件事情的時候，通常都會使用到原住民族傳統領域的土地，可是很多時候部會可能不太知道我們有一些法令，或者是要如何跟在地族人溝通。我舉個例子，當年3月你們公告了一個「短期科研探空火箭發射場域安全規範草案」，引起一片譁然，為什麼？因為你們沒有做部落諮商，當地人就非常不高興。第二個，當時也有一個影片在地方傳，就是某個立委做了一個影片告訴大家火箭有多可怕、世界各個國家發展火箭有多可怕，獨獨影片裡面就沒有中國。我也幫助你們到地方讓他們知道不同類型的火箭長怎麼樣，原來科研火箭沒那麼可怕。所以也很謝謝你們，最後我們在地的溝通做好了，大家也很高興讓旭海成為我們科研火箭的發射場域。","我現在為什麼要特別講？因為當年我就有在立法的過程中特別去訴求，當時的院版第八條說涉及原住民族權益依原基法及相關法令辦理，我當時有特別提醒不是只有原住民的問題，而是在地居民，我們不論到哪裡，在地居民本來就應該要知情、要參與，所以我的版本有特別提到，若有限制人民權利者，應事先說明及溝通，踐行充分民眾參與機制。非常感謝，後來發射場域的子法有特別在第四條做這樣的修訂，就是應公告候選場址、舉辦公聽會，還要以書面通知相關政府機關（構）、團體及利害關係人到場，我很感謝。","當時第二個訴求就是在地產業的部分，院版是寫政府應推動太空產業發展、獎勵及輔導產業、培育產業人才等促進太空產業發展事項。我當時有特別提醒，不是只有培育產業人才，還要跟地方共榮，所以我的版本是「政府推動太空產業，應完善產業及週邊環境發展所須之基礎建設，僱用一定比例之在地人力，發展地方產業鏈，營造在地產業生活圈。」我也非常感謝後來的太空發展法第十四條把這樣的意見納入條文當中。","我要跟主委及太空中心主任說，我今天之所以會講這個問題，是因為在今天的解凍報告第(一)案也有提到，我們已經在114年（今年）3月26日選址作業第4次審查會議，確認也公布了國家發射場域選定在屏東縣滿州鄉的九棚村。可是我們來看一下地圖，國家發射場域九棚村的旁邊有高士部落（屬於牡丹鄉）及八瑤部落（位在牡丹鄉跟滿州鄉的交界，屬於滿州鄉），我們再看另外一張地圖，再放大一點看，它鄰近的部落還有科研火箭發射場域旭海，再往前走，也是你們這次選址之一，就是達仁鄉的南田，你看，他們其實都在一個鏈帶上面，是一個共同的生活圈。","可是我們來看，我不知道主委及太空中心主任有沒有掌握到，最近地方有聲音了。5月16日有一個地方的青年意見領袖寫了一篇貼文，他說「關於在我八瑤部落家附近的八瑤灣火箭發射基地」，他沒有講「九棚發射基地」，他講的是「八瑤灣發射基地」，因為那個地方確實就是八瑤部落的出海口八瑤灣。然後他說「我不排斥地方發展，但我更重視『地方協調與尊重』」、「火箭燃料會不會造成我們八瑤部落的空污問題呢？我們不知道！」、「部落賴以維生的紅土溪河流、火箭場排出的廢水會不會有影響魚蝦蟹迴游到我們部落的問題呢？我們不知道！」、「當火箭升空時都是正常航行嗎？會不會有掉落下來或是失速掉落到我們部落的問題呢？我們不知道！」、「我們在這場火箭場競賽的過程中，我們部落扮演的是什麼角色呢？我們也不知道！」所以地方是不知道、不知道、不知道，但是他不是要阻礙產業發展，只是覺得為什麼都沒有人跟他們講。","這個問題發生在什麼呢？我們看到原民會在3月11日有回函給牡丹鄉公所，因為牡丹鄉公所想問到底這個國家發射場域有沒有涵蓋到牡丹鄉，但是原民會回答這件事要由滿州鄉確認，因為我們是選定在九棚，所以要由滿州鄉確認。好了，現在牡丹鄉就回函給牡丹鄉代表會，因為是地方的代表們想知道這件事，所以鄉公所就把原民會的回答加以轉述，表示這件事要問滿州鄉代表會。而滿州鄉有沒有問呢？滿州鄉也有問，他問誰呢？他問的是原民會，原民會回答不用，因為九棚不是原住民的部落，所以不用。從整件事情看來，我只是要提醒，在地的溝通還是要充分做好。","第二個就是我關心從南田到旭海、一直到現在的九棚，還有附近的八瑤、高士，這些都是比鄰、鄰近的部落，國科會有沒有太空產業生活圈的想像、規劃？未來我們的太空產業鏈有南科、有屏科，到了我們那個地方，到底是什麼樣的關係？部落都很想知道。","所以今天來這邊就是要特別提醒，是不是在地溝通的部分還是要來進行，然後太空產業生活圈目前的規劃情形還是要來說明，國科會、太空中心、原民會有沒有辦法就地方所關心的這些事情能夠來我們辦公室說明？","當然，我們更關心的是太空發展法有了，它的未來是什麼？我們剛剛也聽到大家很關心像40年前美國總統雷根提到的太空站，用衛星去摧毀衛星，現在已經變成一個真實的戰場。我們也很清楚知道，地面上的世界越來越依賴太空中的軌道衛星，所以我們很關心太空發展法、很關心國家發射場域，未來正規的戰爭開打之前的灰色地帶就是干擾或摧毀通訊，我希望臺灣的太空計畫要尋求跟美國這些太空強權形成一個衛星通訊的互保機制，這些都是我們非常關心的。但是萬丈高樓平地起，我相信跟我們在地的溝通會影響未來整個太空的發展，主委及主任都在這邊，有沒有一點點回應就可以？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝伍委員。我們從頭到尾都是用非常開放的態度跟在地溝通，因為依據屏東縣政府及臺東縣政府他們的要求，我們每件事都做到了，伍委員現在提出來我們還要再擴大跟鄰近的部落溝通，這一點我也答應……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們後續一定會辦到，謝謝伍委員的建議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：至於發展及照顧到這個生活圈、在地適合的產業發展，其實本來就在我的規劃當中，各種各樣的建設及產業的推動一定會按照委員的建議來進行。謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162104","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162104","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc160a4645ceabc4b5efa28f537c7c67977531422321b8e3e877446958c994ab1495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:56:02 - 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:39.193,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為這段時間發生非常多的重大交通事故除了剛剛那個三峽之外我們有看到重慶南路也有一個車禍也是有一台車爆衝後來衝撞了四台車有八個人受傷那請問預案會會針對這一起事件立案調查嗎"},{"start":42.561,"end":58.009,"text":"這個案子沒有沒有為什麼沒有立案為什麼不立案他不在我們重大運輸事故的範圍裡面是因為那兩個差別是因為是有死傷的人數的差別嗎對他這個是個別的"},{"start":59.51,"end":81.79,"text":"特別的案件什麼叫個別的案件那三峽這個案子是因為因為全國矚目社會關注這個是特別為了用報案條款特別立案的所以如果社會矚目重大事件是就會關注那這個重慶南路這個車禍我覺得社會也蠻矚目的因為網路那個影片到處傳是非常驚悚的所以有立案跟沒立案的差別在哪裡"},{"start":82.774,"end":95.649,"text":"有一樣個便利案就是他他是不是剛報告他是不是重大運輸事故範圍裡面那這個案子跟三峽那個案子的差別在哪?因為我剛報告他社會矚目嘛社會矚目"},{"start":99.7,"end":125.236,"text":"我想那個案子社會矚目是因為很不幸有一些小朋友還有一個女騎士她過世嘛應該是這樣所以大家會矚目但是這個重慶南路這個車禍其實你如果有看那個影片他也是非常驚悚他一台車衝過去剛好有幾位行人在過馬路然後是因為那個行人看到車子有閃了有閃開了所以沒有造成有人命的傷亡"},{"start":126.021,"end":131.67,"text":"那如果說不是說那些行人他散開的話其實後果也不堪設想"},{"start":133.052,"end":154.76,"text":"所以我覺得如果我現在就不太懂那個越安會立案的標準到底在哪裡如果以重大矚目的話其實這個事情你可以去看網路討論度也是非常高我覺得那個也是重大矚目的因為越安會的標準應該在定的更嚴謹一點那當然你們是有一個標準我們來看一下這是越安會重大運輸事故範圍的一個討論"},{"start":157.009,"end":174.942,"text":"裡面就有提到譬如說有造成死亡三人以上或者是有生命身體財產重大影響重複發生情況特殊或新興運據事故之前就有一個案子在湖北嘛 它是一台車然後車禍就調查 原因是因為它是新興運據"},{"start":176.443,"end":187.751,"text":"我問你們想要去了解是不是因為又啟用了無人駕駛或什麼因素才造成事故應該是這樣嘛但像剛剛我舉的重慶南路那個事故那個事件啊其實也是一個蠻特殊的狀況"},{"start":188.956,"end":214.676,"text":"所以我覺得預案會也可以去研究一下然後第二個我們是希望說預案會立案調查了解原因提出具體改善之道並且得到問題的解決我覺得這個才是最關鍵的問題可是我們去看了預案會的很多調查報告很多不了了之我這邊就舉一個舉一個案例比如說之前有一個債的嫖白水的"},{"start":217.286,"end":232.578,"text":"一個罐潮車他在台二線往東貢遼路那因為他超車超車可能有超速然後後來失控就翻覆這個事件主委已經知道嘛因為這個有立案調查你知道嘛那你可以看一下這邊寫的"},{"start":235.14,"end":248.231,"text":"你們的建議你們的最後異動時間我們紅色圈起來是113年11月21號那個是去年11月21號等於是這個案子已經調查完畢了因為他是112年10月發生的所以一年後你們調查完畢了113年11月調查完畢那現在的狀態"},{"start":252.815,"end":278.594,"text":"有一個很具體的改善內容喔所要制定在不同的設計速率下之最短可超車行駛距離作為連續禁止超車路段之最短間隔長度之依據好等等等等等等然後11月21號到今天已經過半年了建議狀態叫做等候回覆或處理中換言之你調查了也發文給交通部了"},{"start":279.468,"end":296.562,"text":"但是呢這半年全部都在等交通部的回覆那問題解決了嗎沒有解決因為他還沒回覆所以沒有解決那等到他回覆如果你們預案會不滿意來來回回來來回回都不知道要讓我搞好幾年了"},{"start":297.389,"end":312.21,"text":"所以既然已經我剛剛我們這樣質詢下來第一個其實運安會要立案調查是一件很困難的事情啊連重慶南路那樣的一個社會矚目關注事件都沒有立案調查結果立案調查的案件經過了一年多的調查"},{"start":313.371,"end":340,"text":"找到了問題 提出了建議發文給交通部 又等了半年沒有回覆不知道什麼時候可以改善啊這個速度我相信國人不會接受因為任何的重大交通事故它都有可能會重複發生在其他的路段造成其他的重大事故我說的大家要超前部署防範於未然可是這樣的進程我覺得大家不能接受所以 院會你們可以提出什麼改善的方式嗎"},{"start":341.391,"end":366.003,"text":"他這個發布之後被就是受建議當然他有90天的回復期90天那你現在已經半年沒回了欸半年如果輸絕沒錯的話應該是180天嘛90天回復期嘛那回復期使完之後我們要看看他的改善建議是不是可行然後我們就會報行政院所以我聽不懂你現在你請他了嘛對不對你是11月21號"},{"start":367.654,"end":376.887,"text":"上傳了這個報告嘛那理論上你應該是11月21號你就發文給他請他回覆嘛是不是然後他的90天回覆期那他應該在2月21號就要回了啊"},{"start":378.496,"end":405.733,"text":"剛剛執行長告訴我這個案子他90天恢復檢查之後被退回因為不可行不可行再退回所以針對交通重大事故運安會跟交通部你們的互動方式是文來文往就對了不是不是不是就是他發文給你你又退給他他再發文給你你又退給他這種情況並不多大家就是只上作業那這個運安調查都沒有積極性你的機制就是文來文往喔我請組長說明一下他比較熟"},{"start":409.237,"end":434.72,"text":"那這個本案的話那主要有三個感言建議那目前主要是在等待交通部的這一項那交通部這一項應該是在我們90天的回覆期他應該2月19號到期那交通部他他沒有到期所以我們有立即就發出急催函那交通部是3月24號回覆那我們在觀光過程中覺得他的這個內容不可行所以就請他再重提那目前我們有"},{"start":435.2,"end":460.836,"text":"持續的一個激催 我們大概激催了三次那我們目前去預划針對本案那我們會在未來的兩個禮拜找交通部針對這一個感恩建議為何交通部一直沒辦法提出具體的可行的計畫來跟我們做研討所以嘛 我現在只是舉一個個案而已嘛現在你們跟交通部的關係就是你找到的問題你請他改善 他不理你嘛 你還要激催那你不就突顯交通部沒有再把交通安全當一回事嗎"},{"start":461.977,"end":489.785,"text":"如果一個重大交通事件社會矚目的預案會都發現問題了交通部愛理不理然後你現在才講說因為機出來都不理你你們政府有在關心交通安全嗎你們都沒有一些什麼強制的機制譬如說交通部陪你還有上級機關有一個行政院現在大家那麼重視道安有沒有一個行政院的一個層級的可以要求交通部趕快處理真的聽了都覺得很離譜"},{"start":491.465,"end":517.245,"text":"那現在因為這個萬巢車翻覆那當時也是社會矚目啊經過一兩年大家沒關注了那就文來文往啦那現在三峽這個重大事件大家關注了啊你們說要立案調查會不會一年後一樣找到問題傳給交通部交通部三個月回你你絕對不管又退給他然後結果他又再不回你你又雞吹然後又沒完沒了這樣就會把行人安全當開玩笑嘛"},{"start":518.626,"end":543.282,"text":"你們都沒有那個機制嗎 可以交通部趕快改善嗎跟委員報告 其實我們提供的給交通部的改善建議其實蠻多那其實基本上不是都不理我們只是說這一個項目有的理 有的不理就對了這一個項目他在處理上面他這個是一個結構性的問題啦今天不跟個案講太多 這是一個結構性的問題如果運安會的結論交通部都可以愛理不理的還要激催 激催都沒用"},{"start":544.335,"end":554.785,"text":"那只是凸顯說你們交通單位沒有很重視這個事情希望說主委你可以好好跟交通部溝通如果你溝通不了的話你應該跟上面你們的在上一層的機關講嘛要解決這個協調的問題啦好不好沒有這個是個案啦好啦謝謝謝謝啦 謝謝委員會 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時56分）麻煩請運安會主委，謝謝。"],["主席：運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員早。"],["葉委員元之：主委早。我們有看到針對之前三峽的重大交通事故，運安會已經準備要立案調查，對不對？期待運安會可以針對這個公路事件，真正找出原因並且提出改善的方法。但我想請教一下，這段時間發生非常多的重大交通事故，除了剛剛三峽之外，我們看到重慶南路也有一個車禍，也是有1臺車爆衝，後來衝撞了4臺車，有8個人受傷，請問運安會會針對這起事件立案調查嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：這個案子沒有立案。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼不立案？"],["林主任委員信得：它不在我們重大因素事故的範圍裡面。"],["葉委員元之：兩個差別是因為死傷人數的差別嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對，它這個是個別的案件……"],["葉委員元之：什麼叫個別的案件？"],["林主任委員信得：三峽的案子因為受全國矚目、社會關注，是特別用霸王條款特別立案的。"],["葉委員元之：如果社會矚目重大事件就會關注，重慶南路這個車禍我覺得社會也蠻矚目的，因為網路影片到處傳是非常驚悚。有立案跟沒立案的差別在哪裡？"],["林主任委員信得：有立案跟沒立案就差是不是包括在重大運輸事故範圍裡面。"],["葉委員元之：對，這個案子跟三峽那個案子的差別在哪？"],["林主任委員信得：三峽那個因為我剛剛報告它受社會矚目，特別大。"],["葉委員元之：我想那個案子社會矚目，是因為很不幸有一些小朋友還有1個女騎士過世，應該是這樣所以大家會矚目。但是重慶南路的車禍，你如果有看影片，它也是非常驚悚，1臺車衝過去剛好有幾位行人在過馬路，然後是因為行人看到車子才閃開，所以沒有造成人命的傷亡，如果不是因為那些行人閃開的話，其實後果也不堪設想，所以我現在就不太懂運安會立案的標準到底在哪裡。如果以重大矚目來講的話，其實這個事情在網路討論度也是非常高，我覺得也是重大矚目，所以運安會的標準應該再訂得更嚴謹一點。當然你們有一個標準，我們來看一下運安會重大運輸事故範圍的討論，裡面就有提到比如造成死亡3人以上，或者有生命、身體或財產重大影響、重複發生、情況特殊或新興運具事故。","之前在虎尾有一個案子，有一臺車車禍開始調查原因，因為它是新興運具，你們想要了解是不是因為啟用無人駕駛或什麼原因才造成事故，應該是這樣。但像剛剛我舉重慶南路的事件其實也是一個蠻特殊的狀況，所以我覺得運安會也可以去研究一下。第二個，我們希望運安會立案調查了解原因，提出具體改善之道，並且得到問題的解決。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這個才是最關鍵的問題。"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：可是我們看了運安會很多的調查報告，很多都不了了之。我舉一個案例，比如之前有一個載著漂白水的罐槽車，在台2線往東貢寮路，因為超車而且可能有超速，後來失控翻覆。這個事件主委知道嘛，因為這個有立案調查。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["葉委員元之：你知道嘛！你可以看一下這邊寫的，你們的最後異動時間，我們紅色圈起來的是113年11月21號，那個是去年11月21號，等於是這個案子已經調查完畢了，因為它是112年10月發生的，所以一年後你們調查完畢了，113年11月調查完畢。現在有一個很具體的改善內容，說要制定在不同設計速率下之最短可超車行駛距離，作為連續禁止超車路段最短間隔長度之依據等等。然後11月21號到今天已經過半年了，建議狀態叫做等候回復或處理中。換言之，你調查了，也發文給交通部了，但是這半年全部都在等交通部的回復，那問題解決了嗎？沒有解決，因為它還沒回復，所以沒有解決，等到它回復，如果你們運安會不滿意，來來回回、來來回回都不知道又要搞好幾年。","我們這樣質詢下來，第一個，其實運安會要立案調查是一件很困難的事情，連重慶南路那樣一個社會矚目的關注事件都沒有立案調查，結果立案調查的案件，經過一年多的調查找到了問題，提出了建議，發文給交通部，又等了半年沒有回復，也不知道什麼時候可以改善，這個速度我相信國人不會接受，因為任何的重大交通事故，它都有可能會重複發生在其他的路段，造成其他的重大事故，所以大家要超前部署，防範於未然。這樣的進程我覺得大家不能接受，運安會可以提出什麼改善的方式嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：它這個發布之後，受建議單位有90天的回復期。"],["葉委員元之：90天？現在已經半年沒回了，半年如果數學沒錯的話，應該是180天。"],["林主任委員信得：90天回復期，回復期完之後，我們要看看它的改善建議是不是可行，然後我們就會報行政院。"],["葉委員元之：我聽不懂，現在你已經請它了嘛！對不對？你是11月21號上傳這個報告，理論上你應該是11月21號就發文給它請它回復嘛！是不是？然後它有90天回復期，那它應該在2月21號就要回了啊！"],["林主任委員信得：剛剛執行長告訴我，這個案子90天的回復期完後變退回，因為不可行。"],["葉委員元之：不可行你就退回？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以針對交通重大事故，運安會跟交通部的互動方式是文來文往就對了？"],["林主任委員信得：不是、不是、不是。"],["葉委員元之：就是它發文給你，你又退給它，它再發文給你，你又退給它。"],["林主任委員信得：這種情況並不多。"],["葉委員元之：大家就是紙上作業，運安調查都沒有積極性，你們的機制就是文來文往喔？"],["林主任委員信得：我請組長說明一下，他比較熟。"],["曾組長仁松：委員你好，本案主要有三個改善建議，目前主要是在等待交通部的這一項，交通部這一項應該是在……我們90天的回復期，它應該是2月19號到期，交通部超過期限，所以我們有立即發出稽催函，交通部是3月24號回復。我們在公文過程中覺得它的內容不可行，所以就請它再重提，目前我們有持續稽催，我們大概稽催了3次。目前我們針對本案，會在未來的兩個禮拜找交通部，針對這一個改善建議，為何交通部一直沒辦法提出具體可行的計畫來跟我們研商。"],["葉委員元之：我現在只是舉一個個案而已嘛！現在你們跟交通部的關係就是，你找到了問題，你請它改善，它不理你嘛！你還要稽催，那你不就凸顯交通部沒有把交通安全當一回事嗎？如果一個重大交通事件，還是社會矚目的，運安會都發現問題了，交通部愛理不理，然後你現在才說因為稽催它都不理你，那你們政府有在關心交通安全嗎？"],["曾組長仁松：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：你們都沒有一些強制的機制，譬如說交通部不回你，還有上級機關，有一個行政……現在大家那麼重視道安，有沒有一個行政院層級的，可以要求交通部趕快處理？真的聽了都覺得很離譜耶！罐槽車翻覆當時也是社會矚目，經過一兩年大家沒關注了，那就文來文往。現在三峽這個重大事件，大家關注了，你們說要立案調查，會不會一年後一樣，找到問題傳給交通部，交通部3個月回你，你覺得不滿意又退給它，結果它不回你，你又稽催，然後又沒完沒了？這樣就把行人安全當開玩笑嘛！你們都沒有任何機制可以讓交通部趕快改善嗎？"],["曾組長仁松：跟委員報告，其實我們提供給交通部的改善建議其實滿多的……"],["葉委員元之：它不理你是不是？"],["曾組長仁松：其實基本上不是都不理我們，只是這一個項目……"],["葉委員元之：有的理，有的不理就對了。"],["曾組長仁松：這一個項目它在處理上面……"],["葉委員元之：今天不針對個案講太多，這是一個結構性的問題，如果運安會的結論交通部都可以愛理不理的，還要稽催，稽催都沒用，那只是凸顯你們交通單位沒有重視這個事情。希望主委可以好好跟交通部溝通，如果你溝通不了的話，你應該跟上面，你們再上一層的機關講嘛！要解決這個協調的問題啦！好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有，這個是個案啦！這是個案。"],["葉委員元之：好啦！謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝啦！謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","現在請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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去年因為04 03花蓮這個大地震大地震當天這個鐵路都沒有怎麼樣 北迴鐵路北迴鐵路已經完成興建了幾十年了每一次大地震 大颱風風雨都沒有怎麼樣那04 03大地震當下也沒有怎麼樣"},{"start":75.396,"end":101.801,"text":"是後來因為很多很多的遺症非常多的遺症造成土石洶洞所以6月21號去年的6月21號下大雨開始從那時候開始這個土石流一下大雨就土石流這那一次真的很算是很幸運6月21號發生的這個事情"},{"start":106.585,"end":134.074,"text":"這個總共有乘客火車裡面 新自強號火車裡面總共有500多人這個司機鎖骨者 旅客受傷人數8人這是很幸運很幸運好 我要談的是什麼經過這樣的一個6月21號到現在已經快要一年了快要一年了"},{"start":136.789,"end":163.25,"text":"我們看最近的這是今年的今年五月但我中間還有七年六月到五月今年五月中間還有一些土石流現在一下大雨就土石流了這是最近的5月18號還好也是沒有造成人員傷亡這個"},{"start":166.567,"end":193.084,"text":"志強號的火車正好也還沒有經過快要到那邊了就有這樣的一個警戒所以沒有造成任何的火車跟人員的傷亡這是很幸運的我要談的是什麼呢從去年六月到現在已經快一年了到下個月就一年了這個"},{"start":196.684,"end":224.098,"text":"我們看這個計劃交通部很快的提計劃在交通部改來改去快一年了這個計劃送出來到現在還沒有核定我們來看看這個比較這個只有其實以這一段核能到崇德1.6公里1.6公里而已應該優先去"},{"start":226.636,"end":252.962,"text":"改善加強趕快改善看要重新做隧道還是怎樣總是要核定我們看北迴鐵路北迴鐵路1973年10月因為那拉颱風重篡東部的交通兩個月當時的省主席跟行政院的院長蔣經國報告"},{"start":256.102,"end":275.092,"text":"馬上就核定兩個月核定新建北迴鐵路列為十大建設列為十大建設兩個月然後開始執行六年就通車總共北迴鐵路79.2公里總共橋大的橋22座隧道16個隧道"},{"start":286.349,"end":312.839,"text":"這樣的一個當時的快速的重視最主要是重視我們看因為這個剛才講那一段涉及到鐵路也涉及到公路涉及到公路我們做比較抒發改97年11月10號行政院核定可行性研究就開始進行然後兩年一個月"},{"start":313.956,"end":342.001,"text":"就核定興建計劃工程的興建計劃兩個月這是蘇花改這是比較困難的以蘇花公路的話來講這是比較困難的很多隧道比較比較容易做的蘇花安108年12月20號行政院核定可行性研究到現在5年多了都還沒有核定興建工程計劃"},{"start":344.093,"end":365.819,"text":"最起碼你這段河仁道河仁道崇德這一段1.6公里先做也可以啊沒有都停擺我的意思是怎麼樣這個部分當然是跟看起來是跟那個跟我運輸會有什麼關係國家運輸安全調查委員會有什麼關係"},{"start":372.471,"end":398.73,"text":"這個我剛剛有提到運輸安全改善的建議當然現在不要去調查啦調查又浪費時間又會停擺不要成為理由就是要請這個交通部請交通部趕快像鐵路的部分還在交通部啊到現在還沒有核定還要報行證驗"},{"start":401.153,"end":419.606,"text":"所以這個部分是不是這個運輸調 國家運輸調查委員會啊能夠根據本席今天的質詢的建議當然我也質詢過交通部但是你要讓他知道這個會造成重大事故的時候就有責任囉 所以趕快喔"},{"start":420.967,"end":442.03,"text":"可以嗎我們一般每三個月每半年都會有對改善建議的會議要做檢討我們把這個訊息再告訴台鐵交通部交通部最主要是交通部所以這個部分因為真的是很幸運但是不是一直都很幸運"},{"start":443.294,"end":453.704,"text":"就是總是要趕快做這1.6公里也沒有多長先不要啟動調查不然又慢了又停擺了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時48分）主席，有請主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 邀請我們林主委好 應安會林主委委員長好"},{"start":13.457,"end":31.905,"text":"今天大概委員的集中焦點大概是5月19號這個非常重大的一個車禍也造成了全民震驚大家對於這些年輕的生命在這一場的車禍中造成了三人死亡還有眾多人受傷"},{"start":32.825,"end":56.679,"text":"那5月21號看到我們的運安會要啟動調查的一個程序變成公路的一個重大事故的一個調查我覺得對於很多民眾包括我們的一個期待因為運安會在專業的調查之下希望能夠找出真正的一個原因分析原因然後最後能夠提出改善的一個建議這是大家希望的"},{"start":57.421,"end":73.789,"text":"不過真正運安會一個完整的一個體系整個運作然後整個報告出來可能要等一年那我一直在想因為很多那個制度交通部會說明年可能1月就要去很多一個改變那他要改變的東西到底是不是真正的問題"},{"start":75.17,"end":100.453,"text":"變成了我們現在一個問號不過我們可以來討論一下當然不管是人車環境在這整個你們研究的一個過程我們真的是希望都有一些建言都有一些結論能夠讓我們的交通單位來做一個參考不管說在人的方面他的一個駕駛身心的一個部分他怎麼樣去"},{"start":101.654,"end":120.761,"text":"能夠未來調整他怎麼樣考照更有換照更有鑑別度然後他的回信到底他怎麼樣是一個比較有意義的然後再來他的身心的一個情況在這樣的的車禍中他到底扮演什麼樣的一個角色因為感覺在連警政單位都還在調查中"},{"start":121.661,"end":135.839,"text":"那第二個在整個道路設計包括我們在地方的一個交通的一個單位也是不斷的他們要去研究有沒有辦法在我們交通設計這個不管是標線號之來做一個改善今天比較花時間去討論一下你這個以車的部分"},{"start":138.662,"end":162.158,"text":"車的部分我們現在不管是車輛的性能不管是新車老車它的輔助系統的一個情況我們希望說你們在調查中間能夠有一些具體的一個想法那這一次我們特別有看到我們三峽這個重大交通事故特別是長輩加上老車"},{"start":164.64,"end":186.321,"text":"這個老人家加上老車那當然這個東西這種組合是不是如果是新型的車它的功能有沒有可能能夠避掉這樣一個問題不過這個東西等於事後諸葛但是我正在想未來有很多包括日本很多國家他對於這些老的車輛他希望能夠有一些先進的"},{"start":188.144,"end":202.003,"text":"設計這個部分我們希望也是未來你們在做結論的面向針對這三個面向都會有一些結論嗎你先說明一下我想我們的調查重點裡面可能會卡姆剛委員所提的啦譬如說我們我們的調查裡面會"},{"start":205.668,"end":219.202,"text":"會有一個分支叫做車輛機械跟設備的一些檢測當然有包括學區的學者的安全等等這裡就會涉及到剛剛委員你所提的道路設計的問題等等會被cover到"},{"start":220.523,"end":241.19,"text":"好 當然我們現在比較今天討論就說車輛老舊的相關的問題當我們也知道因為車輛在使用的過程中它的一個雖然年紀差不多但是行駛里程不太一樣甚至保養的一個細菌度不太一樣真的所以同一年齡的譬如10年15年的車它的車況確實會不一樣"},{"start":243.151,"end":260.195,"text":"不過我們來看一下目前台灣在自用小客車在整個統計來講超過10年以上到15年的車輛大概是22%在15年以上還合格在路上跑的206萬大概有29%"},{"start":264.896,"end":286.842,"text":"總體來說十年以上比較舊型的車輛大概占比超過一半我不知道就是說在運安會這個部分你們過去對於自用腳刻車不管是ADAS你們也做過一些調查也有一些做一個結論因為畢竟我們在講年紀不是問題但是因為科技不斷的推陳出新"},{"start":287.722,"end":310.091,"text":"可以大概推論15年以上的車輛先進的ADAS很多的系統它並沒有融入在裡面所以我們在想說你們在研究的過程中對於這樣的比較老舊的一些車輛你們有沒有朝向可不可能有一些偵測輔助系統這個方向來去做推論呢"},{"start":310.951,"end":326.256,"text":"我是從報紙上看到交通部有人這樣建議說老車也可以裝這個ADAS但是這個我們是樂觀其成因為我們不是他的主管機關當然你裝ADAS是有幫助的"},{"start":327.967,"end":348.117,"text":"對駕駛也是有幫助的好 那老舊的車輛我們真的希望說交通部跟我們慾安會有些專業的意見對這個提出來因為你們經過了一年研究我們希望在細節度包括面向是真的有實際的一個很重要的一個價值而不是說現在很多問題哇 這個是一個新聞的一個熱點"},{"start":349.218,"end":364.13,"text":"然後因為你一年的時間啊其實你們面向已經不是解決這個新或者大家的一個民怨的問題你們要一個專業的全面向的出來你剛剛特別講現在ADAS新車很多系統他們都變成一個標配那當然對於"},{"start":365.151,"end":390.56,"text":"目前沒有這些ADAS系統的這個部分我們也去了解一下在業界大概一般警示型的警示型的可以外加像前車碰撞警示系統車道偏移它有可能可以外加但是主動控制要結合到整個車輛電腦要自動煞車等等的這個部分可能沒有辦法任意加裝在如果原始沒有設計並不容易"},{"start":392.461,"end":408.632,"text":"那剛剛有委員也問過啦現在包括日本對於長輩啊對於長輩怕爆衝啊油門誤觸啊他們有特別來政府補助來加裝這個防爆衝的一個系統那你這個部分你的看法如何"},{"start":409.801,"end":435.991,"text":"我覺得當然對醫術安全有幫助我們當然樂觀其成啦但是這可能是涉及配套的問題還有經費的問題啦我沒有辦法替交通部來打但是我覺得這是一個不同的方向啦你的整體的報告我覺得是整個思考這些面向當然因為現在沒有辦法去做結論但這個方向到底怎麼樣那我想說今天因為時間也不多啦我特別看到"},{"start":437.52,"end":464.923,"text":"你們針對這個重大運輸事故的報告在針對112年11月30號在高速公路大亞路段自小客車因為他採用這個ADAS自駕系統撞到了工程的緩撞車這件事情你們也做了一年的一個調查在113年113年去年11月做出的調查報告我也特別看了 特別注意到你中間有寫到這一段"},{"start":466.083,"end":485.89,"text":"就是說我國車輛刑事安全審驗未要求通過聯合國相關檢測的基準規範就是說那怎麼辦你也說啦所以說我們這個在台灣這個在銷售的不管是緊急煞車輔助系統等等的這樣的一個ADAS的一個設備需要靠我們車輛"},{"start":491.986,"end":517.95,"text":"自體公司或者銷售的自己的公司然後去確認這個系統是不是能夠真正正常運作而且你這個寫的是 是你的建議是希望什麼蠻饒舌的 希望 你們希望是什麼就是我國沒有 你是希望我國變成有還是是你查到這個現況嘛 是沒有那你這個要具體建議是什麼 你希望是什麼"},{"start":519.372,"end":533.3,"text":"我所知道的交通部好像已經完成立法準備要往這方面推動了就是未來就是現在包括甲乙類的納克車跟那個載重的貨車這個N2 N3大概12噸以上的這個3.5噸以上的需要配備這個車輛就主動一定要配備"},{"start":543.146,"end":560.468,"text":"那我們對於這個自小課的一個查驗系統現在還是靠我們車界的一個良心跟對自己的信心我們是希望能夠變成國家的一個標準能夠納管這個方向你應該也是支持的嘛"},{"start":561.528,"end":576.956,"text":"這個應該是這個方向是對的好那這個部分未來我們跟交通部在討論這個過程也希望讓這個部分能夠完全納管也希望有些專業的部分我們運安會能夠提供專業的意見好不好我們支持我們支持這個好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":393,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時38分）謝謝主席，有請我們林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員早。"],["魯委員明哲：今天委員集中的焦點大概就是5月19號這個非常重大的車禍，也造成全民震驚，大家對於這些年輕的生命，在這場車禍中造成3人死亡還有眾多人受傷……5月21號看到運安會要啟動調查程序，變成公路重大事故的調查，我覺得這是很多民眾包括我們的期待，因為在運安會專業的調查之下，我們希望能夠找出真正的原因、分析原因，最後能夠提出改善的建議，這是大家希望的。不過，真正運安會完整的體系、整個運作，然後整個報告出來可能要等1年。我一直在想，很多的制度，交通部又說明年可能1月就要有很多改變，他要改變的到底是不是針對真正的問題，變成我們現在的一個問號。不過我們可以來討論一下，當然不管是人、車、環境，在你們整個研究的過程中，我們真的希望都有一些建言、都有一些結論，能夠讓我們的交通單位做一個參考。不管是在人的方面、駕駛身心的部分，未來要怎麼調整？怎麼樣考照、換照更有鑑別度？還有他的回訓到底怎麼樣是一個比較有意義的作法？再來，他的身心情況在這樣的車禍中，他到底扮演什麼樣的角色？因為感覺連警政單位都還在調查中。","第二個，在整個道路設計上，包括地方的交通單位，他們也是不斷去研究。有沒有辦法在我們的交通設計上，不管是標線、號誌做改善？今天花比較多時間去討論一下，關於車的部分，現在車輛的性能，不管是新車、老車輔助系統的情況，我們希望你們在調查中間能夠有一些具體的想法。","這一次我們看到三峽這個重大交通事故，特別是長輩加上老車、老人家加上老車，當然這種組合是不是……如果是新型的車，它的功能有沒有可能能夠避掉這樣的問題？不過這等於事後諸葛，但是我在想未來有很多國家包括日本，他們希望這些老的車輛能夠有一些先進的設計，這個部分我們希望也是未來你們做結論的面向。針對這三個面向都會有一些結論嗎？你先說明一下。"],["林主任委員信得：我想我們的調查重點裡面可能會cover剛剛委員所提的，譬如說我們的調查裡面會有一個分支叫做車輛機械跟設備的一些檢測，當然有包括學區的行人安全等等，這裡面就會涉及剛剛委員所提道路設計的問題等等，會被cover到。"],["魯委員明哲：好，今天討論車輛老舊相關的問題，當然我們知道車輛在使用的過程中，雖然年紀差不多，但行駛里程不太一樣，甚至保養的細心度不太一樣，所以同一年齡的譬如說10年、15年的車，車況確實會不一樣。","不過我們來看一下，目前臺灣自用小客車整個統計來講，超過10年以上未滿15年的車輛大概占22%，15年以上還合格在路上跑的有206萬輛，大概占29%；總體來說，10年以上比較舊型的車輛占比大概超過一半。我不知道運安會在這個部分，過去對於自用小客車，不管是ADAS，你們也做過一些調查，也有一些結論，畢竟我們在講年紀不是問題，但是因為科技不斷推陳出新，可以大概推論15年以上的車輛，先進的ADAS等等很多系統並沒有融入在裡面。所以我們在想你們在研究的過程中，對於比較老舊的車輛，你們可不可能朝向增設輔助系統這個方向推論？"],["林主任委員信得：我是從報紙上看到交通部有人這樣建議，說老車也可以裝ADAS，對此我們是樂觀其成，因為我們不是它的主管機關。當然裝了ADAS對駕駛是有幫助的。"],["魯委員明哲：對於老舊車輛，我們真的希望交通部和運安會可以提出一些專業意見，因為你們經過了一年的研究，我們希望在細節度，包括面向，是真的有一個實際、重要的價值，而不是現在很多問題，這是一個新聞的熱點，因為一年的時間，其實你們的面向已經不是解決大家的民怨問題，你們要有一個專業、全面向的意見出來。","你剛剛特別講現在的新車，包括ADAS很多系統都變成標配，對於目前沒有ADAS系統的部分，我們也去了解一下業界，大概一般警示型的可以外加，像前車碰撞警示系統、車道偏移警示等等，它有可能可以外加。但是主動控制要結合到整個車輛電腦、要自動煞車等等的部分，可能沒有辦法任意加裝，如果原始沒有設計，並不容易。剛剛有委員也問過，現在日本因為怕長輩暴衝、誤觸油門，他們政府有特別補助加裝防暴衝的系統。針對這個部分，你的看法如何？"],["林主任委員信得：我覺得對運輸安全有幫助，我們當然樂觀其成，但是這可能涉及配套的問題，還有經費的問題，我沒有辦法替交通部回答，但是我覺得這是一個方向。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道。你的整體報告，我覺得是整個思考的面向，當然因為現在沒有辦法做結論，但這個方向到底怎麼樣？今天因為時間也不多，我特別看到你們針對重大運輸事故的報告，112年11月30號，在高速公路大雅路段自小客車因為採用ADAS自駕系統，撞到工程的緩撞車，對於這件事情，你們也做了一年的調查，在113（去）年11月做出了調查報告，我也特別看了，特別注意到中間有寫到這一段：我國車輛型式安全審驗未要求須通過聯合國相關檢測基準規範；那怎麼辦？你也說了，所以在臺灣銷售的車輛，不管是緊急煞車輔助系統或ADAS設備等等，需要靠車廠或車輛銷售公司自己去確認這個系統是不是能夠真正正常運作，這個寫的是你建議希望什麼？滿饒舌的，你們希望是什麼？就是我國沒有，而你希望我國變成有？還是你查到這個現況是沒有，而你的具體建議是什麼？你希望是什麼？"],["林主任委員信得：我所知道的交通部好像已經完成立法，準備要往這方面推動了。"],["魯委員明哲：現在包括甲、乙類大客車跟載重的貨車N2、N3類，大概12噸以上、3.5噸以上的需要配備，就是車輛一定要主動配備。我們對於自小客的查驗系統，現在還是靠車界的良心跟對自己的信心，我們是希望能夠變成國家的一個標準，能夠納管，這個方向你應該也是支持的嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：這個方向是對的。"],["魯委員明哲：好，未來我們跟交通部在討論的過程，也希望讓這個部分能夠完全納管，也希望有些專業的部分，運安會能夠提供專業的意見，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：我們支持這個。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的質詢。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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我們已經初步把各種監測的設備它要建置的時候它的規範有重新再檢視我們會讓未來這個建置的這個監測站它會更安全那我們現在已經禁止使用鋰電池了因為鋰電池是比較危險的它在惡劣的天候狀況之下比較容易出狀況那這個"},{"start":132.132,"end":158.512,"text":"整個建制的SOP我們全部重新全面檢討所以不只國務院,我們所有的法案機構我們也都請他們重新檢視只要是做各種各樣的建制設備的工作要求廠商一定要follow我們新修改的SOP安全是最重要的一個條件"},{"start":159.913,"end":169.703,"text":"所以我剛剛講就是有沒有建構就是災後之後的環境的一個評估啦就是作為之後可能在這個預警的部分能夠作為一些參考或者是說我們的災後整個包含這個生態怎麼樣的回復的一個規劃來做有這樣子的一個系統的設計嗎"},{"start":176.89,"end":199.791,"text":"預警的部分我們目前是比較缺乏但是未來因為我們過去只是注重資料的收集環境資料的收集那至於這個設備有一些老舊可能會出現問題的這種預警那當然它的成本會比較高但是我想委員這個是一個很好建議我希望後來未來我們可以把它加入"},{"start":200.612,"end":208.215,"text":"至於災後現在在復原的部分我們第一天就跟陽明山國家公園管理處已經有一個非常明確的意願來協助未來復原的工作我們也邀請中興大學的教授也進來幫忙這種復原的工作現在在進行當中"},{"start":223.6,"end":250.28,"text":"可是陽廣處跟我們講說其實我們陽明山草山建築還有芒草它的根部其實並沒有被燒掉它生命力非常強我去看的時候的確新芽都冒出來了現在春雨開始進來以後我想它應該在一年內可以恢復所以這個隨時就是把這次的火災的區域等於也是納入了國科會當中的天然災害的一個監測的系統"},{"start":251.641,"end":269.749,"text":"對 一個研究算是一個研究的案子算是一個研究的所以也納入了你們在研究的一個系統也納入了好 那之後如果有什麼樣的一個精神再麻煩提供給我們好 謝謝委員那另外我想到就是這次的這個國科會的預算我們解凍案等一下也會處理那有22案"},{"start":270.209,"end":284.257,"text":"那當然其中這個17案是提出這個書面報告那另外的5案呢需要這個專案的報告那針對這個專報當中的一個4案其實國科會跟這個新竹中部以及南部的三個科學園區共編了大概是5億元的這個業務費"},{"start":285.478,"end":306.384,"text":"那遭到凍結是百分之三十那我想另外還有這個特別費的部分是一百一十七萬是全數凍結啦那凍結的理由是對才化法的修法影響說明不足以及臉書的這個發言沒有提供佐證那同樣的也包含這個業務的效益沒有符合預期還有這個資訊揭露不足等等的一個疑慮啦"},{"start":307.524,"end":311.086,"text":"雖然新竹竹科在113年的營業額高達1.5兆南科更是突破了2.2兆年增將近40%即使我們的業績很亮眼但是還是被質疑就是膨脹過快沒有能夠精實地來做檢討我想問的就是今年年初其實已經刪裂了大概有6%"},{"start":330.635,"end":342.46,"text":"那另外這30%的業務費如果沒有解凍的話我們對於國科會還有我們旗下的三大科學園區的管理的業務有沒有進行的這個應該說是至愛難行之處請主委說明一下其實"},{"start":346.822,"end":370.536,"text":"很多人可能會用這個金額或是他的比例來算但是業務費現在是很多是不能留用的不能流入那甚至人事費人事費其實我們現在公務員的聘任有時候是聘人要補退休的人力都很困難所以有時候我們人事費會有一點節餘那以這個理由來說我們經費過剩這個其實是也"},{"start":375.979,"end":396.853,"text":"也是很對我們是很不公平的從主委的談話的這個節奏我們已經感受到至愛難惜了是不是我是很拜託我們委員會能夠同意讓我們全數解凍因為業務費如果不足的話就好像你空有能力沒有武器可以做事情了解"},{"start":397.473,"end":425.123,"text":"那這是對我們是相當為難而且這些業務都很重要特別對園區我們園區剛剛委員提到我們園區的這個業績非常非常成長非常快那我們服務的人力是一直不斷要增加那業務的支出一定是要提升的真的不是只有像表面上就是金額的凍結其實還有很多的人力的部分還有包含我們的人才的培育的部分另外還有很多的甚至連水電可能都會有一些都會有影響好 這個我們了解那等一下"},{"start":425.903,"end":433.73,"text":"我相信這個等一下其實可以請主委等一下再好好說明因為時間的關係我先問下一題好 謝謝委員我想這個今年3月其實我就已經執行過這個國科會了就是我們針對所謂的低軌衛星的推動的一個進度也提出了我的看法跟關切我想2023年這個馬祖電纜的中斷地方幾乎是真的與世隔絕那也凸顯了我們在通訊基本的基礎的設施當中的一個高度的一個脆弱"},{"start":453.647,"end":473.843,"text":"那根據這個監察院的一個報告他說過去的五年當中其實總共發生了36起的海嵐受損的一個事故那在2025年的前兩個月就已經出現了四起那也就是相對來說衛星似乎已經被視為台灣對外通訊的一個最後一道的防線了"},{"start":474.403,"end":503.264,"text":"那我想要請教主委的是這個目前我們的福衛8號跟我們的這個B5G的低軌的衛星相關的時程是不是會如期的進行那另外我想問的是如果當海纜受損或者是通訊中斷的時候那我們的one web通訊的一個能力有沒有辦法能夠支撐像是國內防災或者是醫療甚至金融上面一些關鍵的基礎設施的一個緊急的需求這個部分請教主委"},{"start":503.564,"end":518.222,"text":"好謝謝委員我們規劃當中要發射的包含5月8號今年10月發射目前是按計劃在進行是那會如期嗎會如期10月10月OK那未來"},{"start":519.563,"end":545.881,"text":"服役八號未來每年一顆的規劃現在也是正常在運作當中至於我們第一顆的這個通訊衛星就是我們V5G的通訊衛星現在正在設計當中預計兩年後就是2027年我們會發射第一顆這是我們希望這個是按照這個規劃去進行至於剛剛委員提到說在緊急狀況的通訊的認識這一部分這一部分我們"},{"start":548.283,"end":572.557,"text":"國安會跟這個事務部也在有一個這個規劃在進行當中這個規劃現在中華電信也已經跟這個一家美國公司也簽約了就是這個公司可以提供高軌那個同步衛星來在緊急狀況之下提供我們足夠的政府要使用的這些品官從明年開始今年還是仰賴這個國安會"},{"start":577.099,"end":591.528,"text":"好,那最後一個問題就是目前我們台灣的低軌的通訊其實明顯是依賴這個runway跟我們的starlink那這個國客會是不是有評估過對於所謂的台灣國家主權的一個通信安全的一個風險這個部分有考慮嗎?"},{"start":594.109,"end":621.327,"text":"國會的任務就是科技研發所以我們太空中心在太空三期所要做的事情我們是依計畫在進行當中我現在也剛剛宣布一個次世代通信的方案就是結合我們的產業發展未來我們產業實力上來以後我們會更有實力跟國際的夥伴來談談這個整個新系的使用我們將來使用的頻寬會依照我們的需求一定會足夠的"},{"start":622.228,"end":642.978,"text":"那我認為我們的產業發展現在非常迅速一定有實力來競逐太空賴總統講的競逐太空就是因為我們產業的實力才有辦法所以我們正在朝這個方向再努力那我們也期待喔那如果有更新的一些比較具體的一些計畫或進程可以提供給我們的我想可以提供的再提供給我們好不好好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時6分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委早安。因為剛才都有聽到大家對於小油坑的火災其實是非常非常關注，同樣地我也要問這一題，這是4月14號發生的意外，火勢歷時大概5個小時之後才撲滅，影響的面積大概有4.5公頃以上。我想主委非常關心，在這裡也非常肯定主委在第一時間到現場針對狀況做了解。我知道這跟國科會轄下國研院國網中心設置的空氣品質感測器鋰電池過熱有關，我們在4月底之前也已經完成了大概16處相關的鋰電池感測器全面拆除，特別也針對這類設置進行了盤點工作，當然是非常肯定你們的態度，其實很積極。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：但我想在整個不管是災後環境的變化，尤其是地面的面積、影響到的植被損毀或者空氣品質的落差，有沒有考慮建構災後環境的感測系統，以供之後可能早期可預警或者生態回復的一個規劃來做使用？或者是在這個部分我們有沒有研擬中的管理指引草案，目前的進度又是如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們已經初步把各種監測設備要建置的規範重新再檢視，會讓未來建置的監測站更安全；我們現在已經禁止使用鋰電池，因為鋰電池是比較危險的，它在惡劣的天候狀況之下比較容易出狀況，整個建置的SOP我們重新全面檢討。所以不只國研院，我們所有的法人機構，我們也都請他們重新檢視，只要是做各種各樣建置設備的工作，須要求廠商一定要follow我們新修改的這個SOP，安全是最重要的一個條件。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我剛剛講有沒有建構災後環境的一個評估，就是之後可能在預警的部分能夠作為一些參考，或者是災後的整個包含生態怎麼樣回復的一個規劃來做使用，有這樣子的一個系統設計嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：預警的部分我們目前是比較缺乏，但未來這個……"],["郭委員昱晴：會規劃？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為我們過去只是注重環境資料的蒐集，至於這個設備有一些老舊，可能會出現問題的這種預警，它的成本當然會比較高，但是委員講的這個是很好的建議，我希望未來可以把它加入。","有關災後復原的部分，我們第一天就非常明確地跟陽明山國家公園管理處表達有意願協助未來復原的工作，我們也邀請中興大學的教授進來幫忙，這種復原的工作正在進行當中，可是陽管處跟我們講，其實陽明山（草山）箭竹和芒草的根部並沒有被燒掉，它的生命力非常強，我去看的時候，新芽確實都冒出來了，現在春雨開始進來以後，我想它應該在一年內可以回復到……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這次火災的區域等於也納入了國科會的天然災害監測系統，是這個意思嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，算是一個研究的案子。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以也納入了你們的研究系統？"],["吳主任委員誠文：也納入了。"],["郭委員昱晴：之後如果有什麼樣的進程，再麻煩提供給我們，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外是有關國科會預算的問題，我們等一下會處理解凍案，22案當中有17案是提出書面報告，另外5案則需要專案報告。針對專案報告當中的4案，國科會跟新竹、中部和南部等3個科學園區共編列5億元的業務費，遭凍結30%，特別費117萬則是被全數凍結，凍結的理由是對財劃法修法的影響說明不足，以及臉書的發文沒有提供佐證，同樣的，也包含業務效益不符預期，還有資訊揭露不足等等的疑慮。雖然竹科113年的營業額高達1.5兆，南科更是突破2.2兆，年增將近40%，即使業績很亮眼，還是被質疑膨脹過快，沒有確實地做檢討。我想問的是：今年年初其實已經減列了大概6%，另外30%的業務費如果沒有解凍的話，對於國科會還有你們旗下三大科學園區的管理業務有沒有窒礙難行之處？請主委說明一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：很多委員可能會用金額或是它的比例來算，但是業務費現在很多是不能流用的，不能流入……甚至人事費……其實我們現在公務員的聘任，有時候是……聘人、要補退休的人力都很困難，所以有時候我們的人事費會有一點結餘，以這個理由來說我們經費過剩，其實也是對我們很不公平的。"],["郭委員昱晴：懂、懂、懂，從主委談話的節奏，我們已經感受到窒礙難行了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是很拜託委員會能夠同意讓我們全數解凍，因為業務費如果不足的話，就好像空有人力……"],["郭委員昱晴：影響的層面其實很大。"],["吳主任委員誠文：空有人力，沒有武器可以做事情……"],["郭委員昱晴：瞭解。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這對我們是相當為難，而且這些業務都很重要，特別是對園區，剛剛委員提到，我們園區的業績成長非常快，服務的人力一直不斷要增加，業務的支出一定是要提升的。"],["郭委員昱晴：真的不是只有像表面上的金額凍結，其實還有很多人力的部分，還有包含我們人才培育的部分……"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外還有很多的……甚至連水電可能都會有一些狀況。"],["吳主任委員誠文：都會有影響。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個我們瞭解，我相信等一下可以再請主委好好說明。因為時間的關係，我先問下一題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：今年3月其實我就已經質詢過國科會，就是我針對低軌衛星的推動進度提出個人的看法和關切，2023年馬祖電纜中斷讓地方幾乎與世隔絕，也凸顯我們通訊基礎設施的高度脆弱。根據監察院的報告，過去5年當中總共發生36起海纜受損的事故，2025年的前兩個月就已經出現4起，相對來說，衛星似乎已經被視為臺灣對外通訊的最後一道防線。我想要請教主委的是，目前我們的福衛8號和B5G低軌衛星的相關時程是不是會如期進行？另外，如果海纜受損或通訊中斷，我們OneWeb的通訊能力有沒有辦法支撐國內防災、醫療，甚至金融方面一些關鍵基礎設施的緊急需求？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。我們規劃當中要發射的包含福衛8號今年10月發射，目前是按計畫在進行……"],["郭委員昱晴：會如期嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：會如期在10月發射。"],["郭委員昱晴：OK。"],["吳主任委員誠文：福衛8號未來每年一顆的規劃現在也在正常運作當中，至於我們的第一顆通訊衛星，就是我們B5G的通訊衛星現在正在設計當中，預計2年後，也就是2027年會發射第一顆，我們希望按照這個規劃去進行。此外，剛剛委員提到緊急狀況通訊的韌性，這個部分國安會跟數發部也有一個規劃在進行當中，這個規劃現在中華電信也已經跟一家美國公司簽約了，這家公司可以提供高軌同步衛星，在緊急狀況之下提供足夠的政府要使用的頻寬，這是從明年開始。"],["郭委員昱晴：從明年開始？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，今年還是仰賴OneWeb。"],["郭委員昱晴：最後一個問題就是，目前我們臺灣的低軌通訊其實明顯依賴OneWeb跟Starlink，國科會是不是有評估過臺灣國家主權通訊安全的風險？你們有考慮過嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會的任務就是科技研發，所以我們太空中心的國家太空科技發展長程計畫第三期所要做的事情就依計畫在進行當中，我也剛宣布一個次世代通訊方案，就是結合我們的產業發展，未來我們的產業實力上來以後，會更有實力跟國際夥伴來談整個星系的使用，我們將來使用的頻寬會依照我們的需求，一定會足夠的。我認為現在我們的產業發展非常迅速……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這個頻寬是一定夠的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：一定有實力來競逐太空，賴總統講的競逐太空，就是因為我們產業的實力才有辦法，所以我們正在朝這個方向努力當中。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們也期待，如果有更新的比較具體的計畫或進程，可以提供的請再提供給我們，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162100","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162100","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1ce25d91c49c3b2811219069fb8f2289f531422321b8e3e8781d98ccfcd6d1fbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:54:28 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的時候我們需要多少的頻寬才能維持我們一個救災啦或是一些關鍵基礎設施的通訊我們有沒有掌握"},{"start":107.846,"end":135.456,"text":"報告委員我們現在跟開普在談的公開的這些合作其實並沒有牽涉到比較敏感的那個國安需求我們在國安需求的部分目前是總統府國安會有規劃當中那我們太空中心也在協助那將來開普會不會是其中的一部分現在還不確定但是我們要談的主要是針對產業發展這是我們在公開的太空計畫"},{"start":136.816,"end":158.358,"text":"修正案裡面我們是在去年10月的SRB就是邀請產業界進來就做這個事所以目前國科會負責就是在產業端的部分對嗎好那沒關係那我繼續請教一下就是說我想就是說我們我也看到就是在這個新聞裡面主委也有提到說我們要自主研發B5G衛星嘛才2加4的策略由中空太空中心研發2顆民間研發4顆"},{"start":160.58,"end":181.073,"text":"第一颗预计在2027年发射我认为这是一个很好开始但是我想确认一件事情就是到底六颗够不够因为根据太空中心的估计至少要120颗才能确保我们24小时的通讯不间断所以我们六颗到底够不够第二个问题是我们有没有一个中长期的卫星通讯计划"},{"start":181.946,"end":208.254,"text":"有 我們規劃的就是說如果我們自主的衛星是要做科研用途那我們掌握衛星的設計跟製造的能力的話我們就有實力跟國際的這個新系的大廠合作然後我們台灣的產業就會進來 因為才有量如果我們自主的發射的衛星不管是幾十顆 一百多顆要花非常非常多的錢 是會排擠到我們很多其他經費可是呢 還是不夠"},{"start":209.114,"end":236.809,"text":"也真正要完整的星系要非常的多那美國政府也沒有自己做所以都是產業發展產業發展以後我們只要安全符合我們的需求我們都可以跟他合作所以將來我們可以使用的衛星是他整個星系我們都可以使用所以我們是有一個中長期的計畫應該會不止是六顆嗎因為剛前面其實一開始你在這個受訪也有提到說我們跟美國其實有在談我們雙方怎麼來合作嘛對不對所以未來我們一個中長期的計畫對嗎"},{"start":238.27,"end":264.205,"text":"對 有專門企劃就是會跟他們合作合作包含租用他的衛星或頻段那如果是我們比較屬於要政府的服務的部分我們保證是一定有這個能力的然後在接下來就是商用的部分他們也要做台灣的生意他們也需要台灣的供應鏈那合作起來以後我們可以使用到他完整的這個信息所以我們更有保障所以我們目標是要在我們有目標要達成多少顆嗎在什麼時間點嗎 有這些目標嗎"},{"start":266.345,"end":284.06,"text":"我們的目標現在是六棵但是中長期計畫的目標是中長期計畫就是我們如果跟因為我們的這個三期現在那個延到2031嘛2031之後我們現在還沒有完全確定就是我們跟他開始合作以後我們會規劃下一期的"},{"start":286.343,"end":301.031,"text":"好 了解那我想我關於這聽起來有點像是主權我們也會打造自己的主權心系對不對自主的這個衛星的使用這個是屬於還是在國家比較機密的範圍好 沒問題這個我不方便在這邊好 沒問題好 了解"},{"start":301.891,"end":326.798,"text":"那在下一個問題我想請教有關於前陣子我們陽管處有個大火這個大火就把我們燒了五個小時四點多公頃的生態區變成了焦土甚至波及了我們周邊北投萬里帶的空氣品質後來發現起火點是在國研院在陽明山設置的一個空氣品質感測器疑似離電池自然引發火災"},{"start":328.198,"end":343.547,"text":"所以我想我這邊看到說我們4月底其實拆掉了全台16組相同的一個感測器那我知道主委其實24號也自己去敞刊事發地點我想問一下這件事情是否已經完成調查確定是離電池自燃嗎"},{"start":345.949,"end":357.175,"text":"我們還沒有收到最後的結果但是跟消防局溝通聯絡他們初步的證據是從設備的鋰電池初步的證據那何時會有完整的報告呢?有預估嗎?"},{"start":365.62,"end":389.822,"text":"完整報告可能要看看六月有沒有辦法得到那個台北市消防局那邊確定的這個結果因為他還在調查還在約談廠商之類的好沒關係那我想請問一下因為據我所知好像你們現在其實有針對於高敏感區做一些清查跟盤點我們動作很快的對好那我想問一下我們現在有沒有定一些相關的風險管理的安全指引"},{"start":390.242,"end":412.777,"text":"有,現在是比較危險的就是鋰電池,它在惡劣的環境之下比較容易極端氣候,惡劣是指極端氣候嗎?還是怎樣叫惡劣?包含那個空氣,因為小約克那邊有腐蝕性的空氣那設備那個鋰電池滲漏等等引起的這個火災,那像這些東西事先我們沒有注意到"},{"start":413.757,"end":420.402,"text":"接下來我們國務院現在都已經有一個完整的SOP修改過了對於這種設備在各種惡劣的環境之下要能夠承受多少的壓力那在裝置的環境之間有沒有可能造成更大危害"},{"start":428.248,"end":449.751,"text":"就是等於是說我們其實現在已經做出了一個安全的指引面對不同的環境之下的一個應對方法那我想要再問第三個問題就是陽管器的感測器其實在2024年底就已經計畫期滿可是都還沒有放就是還放在那裡沒有拆除是否有管理與監督的一個漏洞呢"},{"start":450.832,"end":463.665,"text":"包括計畫終止其實並不代表那個設備不能用了因為他還繼續在收資料還提供給我們很多研究資料那這樣子所以計畫期滿到底是持續的計畫期滿之後你剛剛還會繼續收資料嘛那可是問題維護的部分呢還會持續的維護嗎因為這就牽扯到安全的問題嘛"},{"start":469.771,"end":496.739,"text":"這個的確是一個缺失可是你知道我們台灣人都很節儉就是能用我們就對啦節儉可是因為這會造成因為我們現在沒有設備沒有去管理跟監督跟維護的時候就會造成今天這樣子的一個問題沒有錯今天發生這個事情我們當然所有的這個程序我們都會修正好能夠確保以後沒關係那因為我時間有限這一題我們再約時間來了解它後續我們到底會如何來解決這樣子的面對這樣子的問題但我想再問一個問題就是說"},{"start":499.434,"end":515.942,"text":"那這樣子我們把這個拆掉對不對因為我們本來還要收資料可是我們全部都拆了那又是基於什麼樣子的標準與風險評估呢會不會對我們的空氣的資料收集造成影響我們等調查確定結束以後我們當然還會再持續收資料因為這個對民眾安全非常重要所以不能裝因為還在調查調查結束以後我們會用一個最安全的方法"},{"start":525.506,"end":551.994,"text":"再啟動相關計畫那確保這個事情不要再發生這樣好 了解了解那我最後再請教一個問題就是有關於最近這個美國政府已經有發布了就是我們的哈佛大學招收國際生的資格被取消因為他們被控訴助長暴力而且反猶太而且與中國共產黨勾結所以呢他們會喪失合法的身份可是現在大概哈佛有6800名國際學生"},{"start":554.415,"end":569.417,"text":"所以這些學生目前就沒有辦法去那邊深造現在其實很多的國家都已經把握了這個機會像是日本的文科學省就已經有呼籲國內的大學要來接收這些受影響的哈佛國際生"},{"start":571.013,"end":588.084,"text":"那東京大學啊京都大學也其實都有在回應這件事情那我想問一下我們準備好了要來搶這一批學生了嗎因為我們其實也有一些相關的計畫嘛要來招收國際的優秀的不管是學生也好研究者那我們目前有沒有一些具體的方案來吸引他們呢"},{"start":588.906,"end":611.081,"text":"其實我們過去在COVID-19的時期我們台灣幾個大學也都是很積極做類似的事情國科會絕對會支持只要我們的大學願意來接收我想的其實是國科會自己其實有一個外籍高階人才來台實習的試辦專案以前都會提供數百名的外國大學生研究生來台灣做一個短期的研究機會"},{"start":612.302,"end":634.25,"text":"那我們是不是可以透過這個機會呢 增加名額啦 增加經費啦 吸引他們可以來然後我們這邊留下來 未來也可以留在我們這邊變成科研人才啊好 這個是很好 我請李處長 科科處理處長跟委員報告 這個IPP呢 它本身是一個月到三個月的短期的時間所以我們也會從這裡面去檢討看看"},{"start":634.904,"end":657.1,"text":"是有可行的嗎?你覺得?可行就是說,更長期的我們都願意做啦更長期,所以我們是有可能在延長嘛,對不對?我們要趕快把這個...對,因為我想這個都是優秀人才,本來要去哈佛大學的耶,對不對?我們應該好好把握啊,而且對我們的半導體AI、生技都會非常有幫助當然,這些學生都是很好的學生,我們當然也會跟教育部來合作啦"},{"start":657.6,"end":683.066,"text":"因為即使是要唸協會,我也希望各大學能夠放寬,正名額,能夠邀請他們過來。了解,那我們進一步再來跟國科會這邊來追蹤好不好?那最後再用一分鐘時間就好,一分鐘。就是其實我們的科普活動啊,上次我們去年在審預算的時候,其實有提到說我們希望可以把台灣台語或其他國家語言放到我們的科普活動裡面,不管是我們的科普列車也好,"},{"start":683.926,"end":699.58,"text":"因為我認為國科會還是可以依據國家語言發展法來支持可是你們跟我們的回應是說你們有做中文跟英文啦可是我們講的其實是台灣台語好像有點牛頭不對馬嘴啦所以我想問一下這部分是不是可行因為我覺得國科會很有機會啊你們都為了視藏者做了這樣子的書籍嘛對不對"},{"start":700.2,"end":722.839,"text":"非常感謝委員提醒我想我們在各種地區的語言盡量我們也可以融入那除了這個科普今年的活動有沒有可能可以融入因為其實有很多母語家庭來講他們其實想要了解這些科學知識我來鼓勵我們理事長按照委員的這個建議好那我們再跟理事長要詳細的活動內容好不好好謝謝喔好謝謝委員"},{"start":726.193,"end":731.74,"text":"謝謝張雅琳委員質詢部會官員請回座 謝謝接下來有請郭玉琴委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時54分）我們有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。主委，想要首先請教有關於低軌衛星的問題，去年10月14號行政院開了一個SRB的會議，裡面就提到國科會將著手進行次世代通訊發展方案，為技術創新與市場應用奠定堅實的基礎。5月17號的時候我也看到新聞報導，主委表示我們已經提出相關草案，而且跟亞馬遜旗下的網路衛星系統Kuiper正在洽談合作中，這項洽談已經得到美國政府的許可，未來將會透過臺灣比較強的製造實力，來協助美國業者更容易取得高品質的不管是衛星、地面站、終端設備等等，我們也可以在這個合作中學到三個我覺得蠻關鍵的東西，就是低軌通訊衛星營運服務；有利臺灣布局星系；第三，保證我們的通訊韌性。","在相當多的發言裡面，我都看到主委強調，這個會對我們的智慧城市、物聯網應用、行動通訊產業扮演關鍵的角色，所以我們必須要持續的投入。但我自己覺得，這個看起來應該並不是只有提升產業而已，應該還涉及到所謂的國安議題。我想請教一下，我們現在在跟Kuiper談的時候，我們有沒有掌握我們平時跟戰時或是災難時的通訊容量需求呢？這樣我們才能夠確保當我們遇到重大災難或是戰爭斷網的時候，我們需要多少的頻寬才能維持我們的救災，或是關鍵基礎設施的通訊，我們有沒有掌握？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們現在跟Kuiper在談的這些公開的合作，其實並沒有牽涉到比較敏感的國安需求。國安需求的部分，目前是總統府、國安會有規劃當中，我們太空中心也在協助，那將來Kuiper會不會是其中的一部分，現在還不確定。但是我們現在談的主要是針對產業發展，這是我們在公開的太空計畫修正案裡面，我們在去年10月的SRB就是邀請產業界進來做這個事……"],["張委員雅琳：我懂。所以目前國科會負責的就是在產業端的部分，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：產業端。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，我繼續請教，我看到這則新聞裡面主委也有提到我們要自主研發B5G衛星，採2+4的策略，由太空中心研發2顆，民間研發4顆，第一顆預計在2027年發射，我認為這是一個很好的開始，但是我想確認一件事情就是到底6顆夠不夠？因為根據太空中心的估計，至少要120顆才能夠確保我們24小時通訊不間斷，所以我們6顆到底夠不夠？第二個問題，我們有沒有一個中長期的衛星通訊計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們的規劃是如果我們自主的衛星是要做科研用途，我們掌握衛星的設計跟製造能力的話，我們就有實力跟國際的星系大廠合作，然後我們臺灣的產業就會進來，因為才有量，如果我們自主發射的衛星不管是幾十顆、一百多顆，那要花非常非常多錢，會排擠到我們很多其他經費，可是還是不夠，真正要完整的星系要非常的多，美國政府也沒有自己做，所以都是產業發展，產業發展以後，只要安全符合我們的需求，我們都可以跟他合作，所以將來我們可以使用的衛星是他整個星系我們都可以使用。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們有一個中長期計畫，應該不只6顆？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["張委員雅琳：因為前面一開始你在受訪時也有提到，我們跟美國其實有在談雙方怎麼合作，對不對？所以未來我們有一個中長期計畫，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，有中長期計畫，就是會跟他們合作，這個合作包含租用他的衛星或頻段，如果是比較屬於政府的服務部分，我們保證一定有這個能力接下來就是商用的部分，他們也要做臺灣的生意，他們也需要臺灣的供應鏈，合作起來以後，我們可以使用到他完整的星系，所以我們更有保障。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們的目標是要達成多少顆？在什麼時間點？有這些目標嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的目標現在是6顆。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是中長期計畫的目標？"],["吳主任委員誠文：中長期計畫就是，因為我們的三期現在是延到2031，而2031之後我們現在還沒有完全確定，就是我們跟他開始合作以後，我們就會規劃下一期的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。我想這聽起來有點像是我們也會打造自己的主權星系，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：自主的衛星使用還是屬於國家比較機密的範圍，這個我不方便在這邊說明。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒問題，了解。","再下一個問題，我想請教的是有關前一陣子陽管處附近有發生大火，這個大火燒了5個小時，四點多公頃的生態區變成焦土，甚至波及周邊北投、萬里一帶的空氣品質，後來發現起火點是國研院在陽明山設置的一個空氣品質感測器，疑似鋰電池自燃引發火災。我這邊看到你們4月底拆掉了全臺16組相同的感測器，我知道主委其實24號也自己去場勘事發地點，我想問一下這件事情是否已經完成調查？確定是鋰電池自燃嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還沒有收到最後的結果，但是跟消防局溝通聯絡，他們初步的證據是從設備的鋰電池引起火災。"],["張委員雅琳：鋰電池，初步的證據。"],["吳主任委員誠文：嗯，初步。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想問何時會有完整的報告，有預估嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：完整的報告，看看6月有沒有辦法得到臺北市消防局那邊確定的結果，因為他還在調查，還在約談廠商之類的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解，沒關係。那我想請問，因為據我所知，好像你們現在有針對高敏感區做一些清查跟盤點，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們動作很快。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想問我們現在有沒有訂一些相關的風險管理的安全指引？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，現在比較危險的就是鋰電池，它在惡劣的環境之下比較容易……"],["張委員雅琳：惡劣是指極端氣候還是什麼？怎樣叫惡劣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：包含空氣，因為小油坑那邊有腐蝕性空氣。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，好的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個設備鋰電池滲漏等等引起的這個火災，像這些東西事先我們沒有注意到。接下來，國研院現在都已經有一個完整的SOP、修改過了，對於這種設備在各種惡劣的環境之下要能夠承受多少壓力，在裝置環境之間有沒有可能造成更大的危害，這個都有。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我了解了，等於是我們現在已經做出了一個安全指引、面對不同環境之下的應對方法。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我想再問第三個問題，陽管處的感測器到2024年底就已經計畫期滿，可是都還放在那裡沒有拆除，是否有管理與監督的漏洞？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，計畫終止其實並不代表那個設備不能用了，因為它繼續在收資料，還提供給我們很多研究資料，就好像……"],["張委員雅琳：計畫期滿之後，你剛剛講還會繼續收資料，問題是維護的部分，還會持續維護嗎？因為這就會牽扯到安全的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這的確是一個缺失，可是你知道我們臺灣人都很節儉，就是能用我們就……"],["張委員雅琳：對，節儉，可是如果設備沒有去管理、監督跟維護，就會造成像今天這樣子的一個問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯，今天發生這個事情，當然所有的程序我們都會修正，能夠確保以後……"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，因為我時間有限，這一題我們再約時間來了解後續我們到底如何解決、面對這樣子的問題。","但我想再問一個問題，我們把這個拆掉，對不對？因為我們本來還要收資料，可是全部都拆了，那又是基於什麼樣的標準與風險評估？會不會對我們空氣資料的收集造成影響？"],["吳主任委員誠文：等調查確定結束以後，我們當然還會再持續收資料，因為這個對民眾安全非常重要。"],["張委員雅琳：可是已經都拆掉了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，現在拆掉了，所以不能裝，因為還在調查。調查結束以後……"],["張委員雅琳：之後如果安全沒有問題……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會用一個最安全的方法再啟動相關計畫，確保這個事情不要再發生。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。我最後再請教一個問題，有關於最近美國政府發布取消哈佛大學招收國際生的資格，因為他們被控訴助長暴力，而且反猶太人，並與中國共產黨勾結，所以這些學生會喪失合法的身分。可是現在哈佛大概有6,800名國際學生，這些學生目前就沒有辦法去那邊深造。現在其實很多國家都已經把握這個機會，像日本文部科學省就已經呼籲國內大學要接收這些受影響的哈佛國際生，東京大學、京都大學也都有回應這件事情。那我想問，我們準備好要來搶這一批學生了嗎？因為我們也有一些相關計畫要招收國際優秀的不管是學生也好，包括研究者，我們目前有沒有一些具體方案以吸引他們？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實過去在COVID-19時期，臺灣幾個大學也都很積極做類似的事情，國科會絕對會支持，只要我們的大學願意接收，我想……"],["張委員雅琳：國科會自己有一個「外籍高階人才來臺實習試辦專案」，以前都會提供數百名外國大學生、研究生來臺灣短期研究的機會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：是不是可以透過這個機會增加名額、經費吸引他們到我們這邊？未來也可以留在我們這邊變成科研人才。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，這個是很好，我請科國處李處長說明。"],["李處長旺龍：跟委員報告，IAPP本身是1個月到3個月短期的時間，所以我們也會從這裡面去檢討看看。"],["張委員雅琳：是可行的嗎？你覺得……"],["吳主任委員誠文：可行，就是更長期的我們都願意做。李處長現在一直在……"],["張委員雅琳：更長期，所以我們是有可能再延長，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們要趕快把這個……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我想這都是優秀人才，本來要去哈佛大學的，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，甚至要……"],["張委員雅琳：我們要好好把握，而且對我們的半導體、AI、生技都會非常有幫助。"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然，這些學生都是很好的學生。"],["張委員雅琳：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然也會跟教育部合作，因為即使是要念學位，我們也希望各大學放寬名額，能夠邀請他們過來。"],["張委員雅琳：是，了解。那我們進一步再跟國科會這邊追蹤，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：最後我用1分鐘的時間，就是科普活動，我們去年在審預算的時候提到，希望可以把臺灣台語或其他國家語言放到我們的科普活動裡面，包括科普列車，我認為國科會還是可以依據國家語言發展法來支持。你們給我們的回應是說有做中文跟英文，可是我們講的其實是臺灣台語，好像有點牛頭不對馬嘴，所以我想問這一部分是不是可行？因為我覺得國科會很有機會，你們都為了視障者做了這樣子的書籍，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，非常感謝委員提醒。我想各種地區的語言，儘量地我們也可以融入，除了這個……"],["張委員雅琳：科普今年的活動有沒有可能融入？因為有很多母語家庭，他們想要了解這些科學知識，卻都沒有辦法。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我來鼓勵我們李處長按照委員的這個建議，我們融入。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我們再跟李處長要詳細的活動內容，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員質詢。部會官員請回座，謝謝。","接下來有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162099","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162099","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1eaab19d3954f0fce7d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e87d6c7337b7bc4e0405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:56:00 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本席請邱主委好 請主委"},{"start":27.803,"end":40.374,"text":"主委好我們大家都非常肯定國安非常的重要那確實大陸近來也有很多的行為"},{"start":42.723,"end":65.864,"text":"這個威脅到台灣所以我們共同抵禦這種情況我們也要共同支持這個國安但是呢 本席手上有幾份數據報告顯示我們去年2024年因為共諜案起訴的人數是2021年的三倍之多"},{"start":67.185,"end":88.204,"text":"其中甚至包括不少的现役还有退役军人这代表什么这代表对岸的渗透不仅没有减缓而且更加的猖獗每位国人还有对政府高层或军队被渗透的现象非常的忧心"},{"start":89.167,"end":104.279,"text":"所以主委您認不認同我們整個在維護國安的同時除了小老百姓更重要的就是這些掌握機密的人您認同嗎你只要回答認同或不認同"},{"start":105.894,"end":125.912,"text":"是 我認同接著我們還看到一個更令人憂心的今年就爆發很多我們看到執政黨政府的內部包含一些核心人員掌握機密的人員也頻頻傳出被中共吸收為其工作的案例您知道這些事嗎"},{"start":126.873,"end":150.685,"text":"我想整個社會都非常關注所以相較於一般社會人士赴大陸交流的言行我們本來也應該進行種種的規範但是政府內部這些真正可能觸犯接觸我們國家機密甚至已經被對岸吸收的核心人員"},{"start":152.452,"end":178.009,"text":"我想知道我們陸委會你難道沒有版本你要去修改法令能夠有更有效的防範措施呢我們看到對於沒有機密的社會人士市場的小老百姓社會大眾我們來修法制約但是對於我們這些真正會掌握到我們國家機密的核心人員可以說是"},{"start":179.81,"end":201.804,"text":"這個執政黨身邊的自己人卻視若無睹毫無防範我還沒說可以可以等一下你講嘛所以毫無設防我們這個覺得非常的遺憾那所以家賊難防啊國之大患還有罰老百姓容易啊"},{"start":202.865,"end":216.526,"text":"但是要罰自己人很難所以好接下來請你檢答針對這個部分你剛剛說你們也很重視那請問你做了哪些具體的"},{"start":219.457,"end":235.336,"text":"這個措施舉例讓我們知道現在共諜案層出不窮那請問你防範的機制在哪裡你可以提出更具體的國安強化措施嗎請你簡單謝謝委員對於國家安全的重視因為這個"},{"start":239.361,"end":258.718,"text":"防治這個共諜因為權責不在我們陸委會但是我們知道政府在做了很多安全查核的工作避免這個事情發生那我們也知道許多的共諜的查出來像在軍方雖然他變成滲透的主要對象但是"},{"start":259.278,"end":260.48,"text":"我們也發現有百分之超過將近80以上的也都是因為軍方他們安全保密做得很好自己舉發出來的所以這個方面不能否定他們的努力"},{"start":274.255,"end":288.946,"text":"我們時間有限,我們大家都想聽,在座的每一位,甚至在網路上看的都想聽你到底做了什麼嗎?或是你幫我們的政府說,不是你的權責,那你做了些什麼?我想相關政府機關都密切合作,來減少這些共諜的出現"},{"start":296.331,"end":315.365,"text":"所以你說看看我們現在要修法規範我們的民眾但是我們這些真正掌握機密的政府相關的核心人員從總統府到外交部到執政黨的相關的秘書助理"},{"start":316.192,"end":344.062,"text":"你沒有任何的防災有已經說要加強安全查核都有在努力在做了就一個加強安全查核好沒關係因為我時間有限所以這一塊我們我相信大家聽完一定覺得你對民眾你就修法然後規範你加強安全查核我們對我們自己的尊公教的人員的加強規範都有在未來的修法應該是蠻多的"},{"start":345.29,"end":357.692,"text":"未來的修法應該蠻多的因為我們今天沒有提出我們的版本未來我們修法都會強化這方面對啊 為什麼今天不提出版本這就是大家的疑問嘛我們有說明的我們還在程序當中"},{"start":359.52,"end":385.558,"text":"接著我們今天要討論的法案你們很早就看到這些提案了但是為什麼你知道整個提案內容可能有一些不是那麼明確比較籠統的問題你在報告書裡面也有寫這裡面有很多不確定這裡面的報告書有很多不確定的法律概念"},{"start":386.579,"end":404.856,"text":"然後呢 相關規範在法案討論時再進一步研議本席很想知道 今天就請你們陸委會要提出你們的立場你們明確的表示 你為什麼不對這些法案提出一些具體你的立場跟你的說明"},{"start":406.756,"end":421.908,"text":"這樣子我們要質詢我才知道你針對這些具體的做法跟你的意見是什麼你不能就全部交給說相關規範可與法案討論時進一步研議因為這幾個版本相關的這個有許多不確定的法律概念我們對於如何釐清那個要件未來在採取上才有明確化"},{"start":432.977,"end":457.726,"text":"那這我們需要跟幾個版本的委員坐下來持續溝通但是他的立法本意在強化我們的民主防衛機制在確保我們國家安全以及我們自由民主的憲政秩序來保護我們我覺得這些立法方向我們是給你肯定給你支持的你都在"},{"start":459.289,"end":474.04,"text":"回答我你都在廢話回答為什麼這些我們也認同這些大方向我們也認同啊但是你是行政單位你就應該要提出具體的這個明確你們的立場你不能這樣模糊嘛"},{"start":474.58,"end":490.059,"text":"我們沒有模糊啊 我們是支持這樣的修法你支持好 那OK 你既然這樣講今天我們很多法條講到配合附和大陸地區黨務軍事等等這個是禁止 就是說修正"},{"start":491.497,"end":510.408,"text":"條文裡面不能做這些事還有不得配合大陸地區具有統戰目的的宣傳行為還有不得公然發表我國非主權獨立國家系其他國家之一等等等等這樣的言論因為時間關係我不全念"},{"start":510.988,"end":532.201,"text":"那像這些比如說我就請問你你在學術研討會上我發表了那個學界他可能不是很清楚你的所謂配合跟附和這個很籠統啊那怎麼樣叫配合怎麼叫附和還有你這個剛剛我念的這三種包含我們的賴總統他都公開講了中國併購台灣哇這個提條件"},{"start":536.703,"end":561.573,"text":"這個有沒有觸犯分裂國土的言論或者是配合附和對岸所以本席要說的就是說還有就是說有些台灣藝人如果在商業的演出當中因為主辦方的要求可能講了兩岸一家親這樣算不算配合大陸地區具有統戰目的呢或者是有很多台灣民眾他的祖先來自中國大陸"},{"start":562.393,"end":572.908,"text":"他難道不能講說我們本來就是兩岸一家親或者是我們這個同源同種等等的言論所以"},{"start":573.854,"end":590.388,"text":"本席要強調的就是說今天你們沒有針對這些籠統的提出意見那你說要到審查的時候我看不到你的立場我看不到你這個明確的來講出來所以什麼叫併購什麼樣叫唱喝對岸"},{"start":594.042,"end":618.053,"text":"因為民眾啊 我們現在講的是修法你只要進入修法 民眾就有違反司法的風險他很容易就可能違法我支持委員的看法就是立法目的 我們要肯定這些委員的用心委員的用心 不用你在這邊拍馬屁我們大家好像是一個方向"},{"start":618.853,"end":634.062,"text":"你剛剛講一些如果確定那種法律不確定概念這個我們可以就有關相關要件再來形成共識我覺得你們應該要針對今天所有委員提出來的你可不可以在會後提出你們的見解"},{"start":635.003,"end":662.591,"text":"那主席您認同嗎就是說你本來你行政單位對於委員的提案你不是提出我告訴你每一個單位說認同當然認同不認同是一種立場但是你也要有一些比較具體的不然這樣子很模糊啊你們要提出你們的立場你不能全部你每一項都是你自己還知道這些都跟民眾的言論自由相關對那所以你應該提出你的立場"},{"start":664.071,"end":671.787,"text":"所以是不是可以在會後我給你們時間在下一次因為我們今天只詢答我們沒有主條你們應該要提出見解"},{"start":675.219,"end":694.108,"text":"可以嗎我覺得給他們時間啊但是你要先提出來你不要都是在現場在那邊講因為其實照理我們質詢前你就該提出來不然我要質詢你什麼你就只有一個你肯定我也肯定啊對國安我們大家都肯定啊可以嗎"},{"start":695.771,"end":716.589,"text":"是 我們這本來職責所在而且進入到主條討論的時候之前你可不可以你多久可以送來內政委員會我們會配合我們召集人的一些指示主席他要請你指示 多久可以送來他總要送來嘛我就是給你時間 你多久時間對啊 召委問你多久時間就今天就這幾條嘛"},{"start":726.391,"end":732.523,"text":"我們在一個禮拜內好啦 可以給你更多兩個禮拜我給你打保好不好OK 好 那就這樣 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時56分）謝謝主席，本席請邱主委。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：好，請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。我們大家都非常肯定國安非常的重要，確實大陸近來也有很多行為威脅到臺灣，所以我們共同抵禦這種情況，我們也要共同支持國安。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是本席手上有幾份數據顯示，我們去（2024）年因為共諜案起訴的人數是2021年的三倍之多，其中甚至包括不少現役還有退役軍人。這代表什麼？這代表對岸的滲透不僅沒有減緩，而且更加的猖獗，每位國人對政府高層或軍隊被滲透的現象非常的憂心。所以，主委，您認不認同，我們整個維護國安的同時，除了小老百姓，更重要的就是這些掌握機密的人，您認同嗎？你只要回答認同或不認同。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我認同，當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：認同，OK，好。接著我們還看到一個也更令人憂心的，我們今年就爆發很多，我們看到執政黨政府的內部，包含一些掌握機密的核心人員，也頻頻傳出被中共吸收為其工作的案例，您知道這些事嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想整個社會都非常關注。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，都關注。所以，相較於一般社會人士赴大陸交流的言行，我們本來也應該進行種種的規範，但是，政府內部這些真正可能接觸我們國家機密，甚至已經被對岸吸收的核心人員，我想知道我們陸委會難道沒有版本要去修改法令，能夠更有效的防範措施嗎？我們看到對於沒有機密的社會人士、市井的小老百姓、社會大眾，我們來修法制約，但是對於這些真正會掌握到我們國家機密的核心人員，可以說是執政黨身邊的自己人卻視若無睹、毫無防範……"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，不是，我們全面的加強安全查核……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我還沒講完，可不可以等我講完？等一下你講嘛。","毫無設防，我們覺得非常遺憾。所謂家賊難防，國之大患，有罰老百姓容易，但是要罰自己人很難。接下來請你簡答，針對這個部分，你剛剛說你們也很重視，請問你做了哪些具體的措施，舉例讓我們知道，現在共諜案層出不窮，請問你防範的機制在哪裡？你可以提出更具體的國安強化措施嗎？請你簡答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員對於國家安全的重視，因為防制共諜，很多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請你直接簡答，我時間不多。"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為權責不在我們陸委會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，你有……"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是我們知道政府做了很多安全查核的工作，避免這個事情發生。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那你簡單說啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們也知道許多共諜被查出來，像軍方，雖然它是滲透的主要對象，但是我們也發現將近80%以上也都是因為軍方的安全保密做得很好，自己舉發出來的，所以這個方面不能否定他們的努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不用太……我們時間有限，我們大家都想聽，在座的每一位，甚至在網路上看的都想聽，你到底做了什麼嘛！或是你幫我們的政府說不是你的權責，那你做了些什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想政府相關機關都密切合作……"],["徐委員欣瑩：又是密切，很不具體。"],["邱主任委員垂正：來減少這些共諜出現。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以啊，那你說看看嘛……"],["邱主任委員垂正：而且我們對於……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在要修法規範我們的民眾，但是這些真正掌握機密的政府相關核心人員，從總統府到外交部、到執政黨相關的秘書、助理，並沒有任何的防範啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，已經說要加強安全查核，都有努力在做了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就一個加強安全查核。好，沒關係！因為我時間有限。這一塊我相信大家聽完一定覺得，對民眾就修法，然後規範，但加強安全查核，過去……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們對自己軍公教人員的加強規範都有，在未來修法應該是滿多的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：未來的修法應該滿多的？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們今天沒有提出版本，未來我們修法都會強化這方面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！為什麼今天不提出版本？這就是大家的疑問嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們有說明了，我們還在程序當中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接著，我們今天要討論的法案，你們很早就看到這些提案了，但是你知道整個提案內容可能有一些不是那麼明確，有比較籠統的問題。你在你的報告書裡面也有寫，這裡面有很多不確定，這是你們的報告書，提到有很多不確定的法律概念，相關規範在法案討論時再進一步研議。本席很想知道，今天就請你們陸委會提出你們的立場，你們明確的表示，你為什麼不對這些法案提出一些你們具體的立場跟你們的說明？我們要質詢，我才知道你們針對這些的具體作法跟你們的意見是什麼，不能就全部交給「相關規範可於法案討論時進一步研議」，你這樣沒有效率啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為這幾個版本有許多不確定的法律概念，對於如何釐清那個要件，未來在裁處上才能夠明確化……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們需要跟幾個版本的提案委員坐下來持續溝通，但是它的立法本意在強化我們的民主防衛機制，在確保我們國家安全以及自由民主的憲政秩序，保衛我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些我們都知道。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我覺得這些立法方向，我們是給予肯定也支持的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你回答我都在回答廢話，為什麼？這些我們也認同，這些大方向我們也認同啊！但你們是行政單位，就應該要提出你們具體的、明確的立場，不能這樣模糊嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們沒有模糊啊！我們支持這樣的修法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你支持？OK！你既然這樣講，今天有很多法條講到配合、附和大陸地區黨務、軍事等等，這個是禁止，就是修正條文裡面不能做這些事，還有不得配合大陸地區具有統戰目的之宣傳行為，以及不得公然發表我國為非主權獨立國家、係其他國家之一等等這樣的言論，因為時間關係我不全念，像這些，譬如我就請問你，在學術研討會上發表時，學界可能不是很清楚你們所謂的配合跟附和，這個很籠統啊！怎麼樣叫配合？怎麼叫附和？還有剛剛我念的這三種，包含我們的賴總統，他都公開講了中國併購臺灣要提條件，這個有沒有觸犯分裂國土的言論，或者是配合、附和對岸？還有，有些臺灣藝人如果在商業演出當中，因為主辦方的要求，可能講了兩岸一家親，這樣算不算配合大陸地區具有統戰目的之宣傳行為呢？或者是有很多臺灣民眾，他的祖先來自中國大陸，難道他不能說本來就是兩岸一家親，或者我們是同源、同種等等的言論？本席要強調的就是今天你們沒有針對這些籠統的部分提出意見，你說要到審查的時候，我看不到你的立場，看不到你明確地講出來，所以什麼叫併購？什麼樣叫唱和對岸？我們現在講的是修法，只要進入修法，民眾就有違反司法的風險，他很容易就可能違法。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我支持委員的看法，立法目的我們要肯定這些委員的用心，但為了維護國家安全……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些委員的用心，不用你在這邊拍馬屁，我們大家朝向同一個方向。"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是拍馬屁。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你那樣一句話就講完了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：你剛剛講一些如何確定法律不確定概念，這個我們可以就相關要件再來形成共識。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我覺得你們應該要針對今天所有委員提出來的版本，你可不可以在會後提出你們的見解？主席，您認同嗎？本來行政單位對於委員的提案，我告訴你，不是每一個單位說認同，當然認同不認同是一種立場，但是你們也要有一些比較具體的，不然這樣真的很模糊啊！你們要提出你們的立場，不能全部每一項都是……你自己還知道這些都跟民眾的言論自由有關。"],["邱主任委員垂正：息息相關。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以你應該提出你的立場嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是可以在會後？我給你們時間，因為我們今天只詢答，我們沒有逐條，下一次你們應該要提出見解，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們……"],["主席：我覺得要給他們時間。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，給他們時間啊！但是你要先提出來，你不要都是在現場在那邊講，其實照理說我們質詢前你就該提出來，不然我要質詢你什麼？你就只有一句你肯定，我也肯定啊！對國安我們大家都肯定啊！可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，這本來就是我們職責所在，而且進入逐條討論的時候……"],["徐委員欣瑩：之前。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們就來落實……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你多久可以送來內政委員會？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會配合召集人的指示。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，他要請你指示，多久可以送來？他總要送來嘛！"],["主席：我就是給你時間，你多久時間？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！召委問你多久時間。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天就這幾條嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們在一個禮拜內。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！可以給你更多時間，兩個禮拜讓你答復，好不好？"],["主席：OK，那就這樣，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝。"],["主席：蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會；討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162098","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162098","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc192514fe0de84bdc77d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e87eabdaf21c288ba395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:48:40 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那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好"},{"start":165.633,"end":175.317,"text":"就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊"},{"start":183.5,"end":208.161,"text":"這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講"},{"start":211.926,"end":234.106,"text":"以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得"},{"start":235.697,"end":247.47,"text":"交流 大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理"},{"start":248.425,"end":277.344,"text":"對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎 有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是 我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊"},{"start":279.045,"end":303.938,"text":"有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩大我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統"},{"start":304.878,"end":330.49,"text":"鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的"},{"start":332.812,"end":359.573,"text":"來說對一些重要的人特殊人我們是採取比較高的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了"},{"start":360.033,"end":382.509,"text":"何況你要替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在做這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國辦這是什麼我跟你講"},{"start":387.532,"end":415.271,"text":"這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的嗜毒教育這個我們會來全力努力好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時48分）我請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，針對今天這個法案的提案內容，其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在臺灣的主權，還有我們民主的生活方式，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：其實最主要就是這樣嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我們在臺灣如果沒有民主自由，我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧！"],["邱主任委員垂正：今天這些法案都在民主防衛。"],["張委員宏陸：我不管是什麼防衛啦，但臺灣如果沒有民主，今天這麼多立法委員，不管是哪一黨、哪一派的，都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你，那你也要很誠實的回答，這是不是民主的真諦？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！所以我們守護的是這個，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：另外，我們再怎麼樣，我們是要守護臺灣的中華民國，現在就是臺澎金馬，我們的主權嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這是我們最主要的嘛，我們的前提是這樣，對不對？主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們當然是守護我們國家的主權，守護我們自由民主的生活方式。"],["張委員宏陸：這是我們要去做的啦！我先請教你幾個問題，剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化，我想請問一下主委，一間公司小，它的價值就少嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想應該是未必。"],["張委員宏陸：什麼未必！很多公司雖然人不多，但是它的價值超過那種好幾萬人的公司耶，是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然。"],["張委員宏陸：全世界有很多這種公司，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我的規模小，但我的價值高，我在全球經貿的影響力跟關鍵的地位卻是非常重要的，那像不像臺灣？我們臺灣在全球半導體產業，在全球科技業裡面，我們臺灣雖然小，但我們人才多，而且我們有關鍵的技術，我們這間公司人雖然不多，但我們的價值比很多有好幾萬員工的那種工廠都高，甚至價值高出上千倍吧，是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：既然是的話，你就應該大膽講嘛，這個哪有什麼矮化？我們是小而美、小而精，我們是有實力的，這個跟矮化有什麼關係？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我是覺得用大公司、小公司，如果你……像委員這樣談就很好，就怕過度曲解，畢竟我們不要……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，我跟你講，主委，有的人就是要故意曲解啊，有的人……我們現在聽了覺得很生氣，其實是因為有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在臺灣講話啊，很多人是這樣啊，這是我們擔心的，我們今天才會要有這些法案啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：不然幹嘛有需要制定這些法案，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們擔心的是很多人在臺灣，以他的角度，在臺灣利用臺灣的言論自由，然後抹黑、造謠很多事情，我們擔心的是這樣，是不是啊？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，所以你其實就應該要大聲的講出來，我覺得這個沒有什麼啊，我跟你講，以前小學念書的時候是「沒有國哪有家」啦，現在中華民國如果被消滅了，以後還有立法院嗎？以後還有臺灣或是有什麼嗎？連房子、連土地都國有化了，連拜拜都不自由了，這是我們要守護的一個精神啊，對不對？所以我覺得交流大家都可以交流，但我們今天提出的這些法案，有一些確實是因為你是擔任特殊位置的人，我可以給你一些管理，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們只是侷限在這裡而已嘛，我們也沒有全面啊！好像講的是全面，不對吧，有嗎？有沒有全面？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員，因為過去掌握我們國家非常重要的資訊以及他的位置很特殊，我們要對他的言行賦予相對的責任，這是合理的。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我們今天的修法是不是就局限在這一塊，有到全面管制人民嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有一些是這樣的設計。"],["張委員宏陸：對。好，那一些重要的人我要管理，但我們現在是要給一般人民知道，哪一條紅線你不能踩吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。我們現在社會越來越有共識，比如消滅中華民國主權、併吞臺灣或是鼓吹武統，鼓吹用戰爭的方式侵略臺灣，像這些，慢慢社會有一個共識，而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的說法，這些要件我們想說進一步形成共識，如果大院通過這些立法，我們社會就應該要遵循。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，所以總括來說，對一些重要的人、特殊的人，我們是採取比較高度的管理……"],["邱主任委員垂正：比較高，是。"],["張委員宏陸：但是對一般人民，我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩啦……"],["邱主任委員垂正：是、是。"],["張委員宏陸：細節就不用再說，最主要的原則是在這裡吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛。我覺得臺灣是一個言論自由的國家，但言論自由還是必須有限制的。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你辱罵別人都要被告了，何況你要替我們的敵對勢力宣傳，我覺得不合理。而且我一直認為，對岸一直在講要武統，而且他的軍機什麼的都在做實際的演練，這個在我們來講，這就是敵對勢力啊！這不是敵國，不然這是什麼，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，這個也要讓全臺灣人知道。我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們民主自由的方式，我們就必須要有一些作法，不然臺灣早就被賣掉了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：以前的國民黨就是這樣子被賣，輸給共產黨了，我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員所講的，我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的識讀教育，這個我們會全力努力。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張宏陸委員，我們的召委。","下一位請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","請林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162097","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162097","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1a1e6a40ffda0c40c7d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e87eabdaf21c288ba395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:42:27 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三位一位同仁請我們陸委會主委請主委"},{"start":14.229,"end":27.594,"text":"委員好 今天審查大陸第七人民關係條例及香港澳門的關係條例那我們都知道其實現在社會有很多 不管說他的宗教跟公職人員在內政部建構的一個資訊的透明化包含中國大陸一定要透過來登記"},{"start":40.759,"end":60.958,"text":"整個登錄的案件還是非常少只有本席這邊的資料只有250件是不是指委你有掌握到我們未來要怎樣讓我們所有到對岸做交流大家都能透明化這就是我們的陸委會這邊要多加的先導包含透過我們媒體來做先導"},{"start":66.704,"end":74.627,"text":"我們到對岸的不管是任何的交流大家這個自信還是要透明化這有沒有掌握"},{"start":75.208,"end":98.01,"text":"是 謝謝委員 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登錄對大家有好處對我們民主憲政的正常運作也有幫助因為這樣去到那裡的安全性我們才能追蹤得到你說尤其本績這麼好的資料"},{"start":272.287,"end":300.255,"text":"被扣押的有102件以及失聯招限制人身自由的又有89件所以在這個部分我們整個到對岸去登陸整個行程這是一個非常重要我們一定要落實的去做謝謝委員提醒我們來過我們報案的有102件那麼沒有報案的那黑數搞不好更多這些人都在大陸"},{"start":301.335,"end":327.617,"text":"失蹤 被強制的拘押盤查或者是被他們的刑法限制人身自由那麼從去年到現在有102件這個數字不斷在增加所以國人赴陸的風險是增加的這也是我們兩岸互動我們最在意的地方所以我們為什麼要提高旅遊警示而且希望大家都能夠到陸委會也好"},{"start":328.197,"end":355.728,"text":"教育部也好來登錄我們這個系統那剛剛委員也說了為了我們民主政治的正常運作那麼大家都能夠揭露那我們也在鼓勵各界的人士能夠揭露能夠去填報這個詳細的這個資訊讓社會了解同時也獲得一份的安全保障我們會努力謝謝 謝謝主委好 謝謝謝謝 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程序委會但是我們的案子是"},{"start":234.053,"end":249.65,"text":"以落實賴總統所提出實施這樣的因應策略為主的那些規管措施我今天要提這一段就是因為在立法的時候其實從答詢開始它就是一個溝通的開始如果你今天報告只是講它的東西不明確但你沒有明確的講出那應該是什麼"},{"start":250.211,"end":275.258,"text":"那其實某一些層面會變成原地踏步跟委員報告既然有願版願版出來我們也會去跟委員來報告我們的一些理念的設計跟提案的一些我想這部分尤其是法律明確性是本席比較要求的因為你看像之前有修正幾次包含國安法等等其實都出現大量起訴但最後被判的比例並沒有那麼高嘛對不對但是任何一個人他一旦被起訴被偵查被偵辦"},{"start":276.158,"end":303.84,"text":"他可能在社會上被貼標籤受到一定的衝擊形象的打擊等等到最後可能是沒事那你是不是其實某一些層面來講就要傷及無辜所以你在法律立法的設計的技術上跟品質上本來就要從前端要嚴格把關我希望這樣的法案修正當然大家都希望國家安全為重但是問題就是說討論的過程你不能不理性嘛你不能不嚴謹好不好這是我要提醒的謝謝 謝謝委員第二個就是順著往下講叫做社會現在的氛圍對於理性討論這件事情的影響這"},{"start":305.939,"end":329.714,"text":"主委喔 所以你一下都是兩岸關係的主管機關本來應該是要希望大家可以合理的來交流對談等等但是現在好像大家在問你的時候都在問要怎麼防備啊 怎麼三管五卡啊那當然就是因為氛圍不好嘛現在氛圍要萬事皆統戰 輕鳥說了算欸這主委你最近有沒有看新聞有一個人在路上應該是直播還是在拍影片就有一個人跑進來說什麼六四天安門"},{"start":330.765,"end":352.598,"text":"然後那個拍攝師會講幹嘛我是台灣人就鬧了一個烏龍為什麼發生這個事主委你知道嗎因為網路上現在很多青鳥在講說現在我們已經被滲透了很多人都用直播什麼在偷拍我們的設施所以大家要挺身而出去阻擋這些人然後變得現在任何人包含前面之前也有個是拍他喜歡拍馬路路口"},{"start":353.138,"end":382.382,"text":"他就喜歡拍他說那是無意義的照片但他喜歡蒐集這樣的照片結果就被人家就被人家盤問被人家阻止就出現很多這樣的事情金明聯要去借北港朝天北港媽祖廟前面的這個北港政工所申請入權但因為要辦廟會北港的廟要辦廟會所以政工所表示說可不可以喬別的時間結果網路上親鳥就講北港媽祖被中共統戰現在到處都是這樣的一個聲音主委你有沒有觀察到這樣的事情"},{"start":384.271,"end":410.628,"text":"謝謝委員 當然這個我們的國人開始重視國安開始對於中共對台的滲透統戰開始關注包括像有許多招攬我們的年輕朋友復路去交流參加比賽人人有獎像這些統戰的活動國人過去可能都沒有那麼多的關心那現在打電話到路我會都蠻多的"},{"start":412.569,"end":436.503,"text":"主委我要講這些故事的原因就是說社會現在焦慮而且這個焦慮我認為已經超出了理性的範疇嘛是因為你現在在路上拍個入口都被人家盤問對不對這是很奇怪的事嘛你在亂開個直播被人家跑進來亂入對不對這是不太好做但是他只有澄清的話就得到一些理解對我現在講的意思就是說即便有這樣的氛圍大家在討論立法的時候還是要有理性不能被這樣的東西牽著走"},{"start":437.623,"end":460.856,"text":"我非常贊成應該要在理性的環境下來推動我們是在野黨你們是執政黨至少我們在應該要理性的討論然後要講道理這件事情我們要達成實質的共識我們強化社會溝通爭取共識這個是我們職責所在也謝謝委員我之所以講說我們一定要秉持理性討論的原因就是因為如果我們連執政當局如果連這條線都要配合焦慮情緒然後亂花一通的話會出事"},{"start":464.898,"end":484.619,"text":"比如說有幾個版本講說有任何這個矮化國家的意圖對不對矮化國家的這樣相關的言論或配合大陸地區有統戰目的的政治宣傳行為等等他現在未來就要列入你的防守範圍就要開罰對不對剛剛很多人都問那賴清德總統的併購論那都算不算某一種層面的矮化呢"},{"start":487.457,"end":502.314,"text":"統戰如果是由大家說的算對不對和平談判促成統一它一定也是統戰的一環法委員那個我不要過度的去解讀啦我們說兩岸的互動應該要對等尊嚴相互尊重啦我今天不是要跟你吵架我就是要提醒你這個事就是說因為"},{"start":503.695,"end":521.845,"text":"統戰這也是很模糊的概念很模糊的概念的時候大家就講說你只要坐下來談很多人也講是統戰你去參加交流去參加比賽他也講你統戰你去觀光他也講你是統戰你在路口拍照他都講你是統戰在這樣的一個情況之下如果我們的法律去寫說任何有相關的行為都都要受罰那是不是會變成"},{"start":523.496,"end":550.516,"text":"變了一個很奇怪的狀況我們也跟委員一樣看法對言論跟表意的範疇要比較審慎如果言論跟表意都要在這次的立法被管制的話那賴清德總統的併購論絕對會第一個被拿出來被挑戰因為併購你當然是講我們要有條件要有前提可是講說大公司併小公司第一我們被併第二如果要提條件表示要談判那豈不是說要透過談判的方式解決兩岸問題嗎這是賴總統的官方立場是陸委會的官方立場嗎"},{"start":553.341,"end":576.76,"text":"真的委員對這個議題就不要過度解讀我們只是說兩岸在互動的時候還是要秉持著你要正視我的存在我們要對等尊嚴相互尊重我都願意多聽主委講幾句我也希望大家在立法過程中不要被太過焦慮的社會氛圍你反而執政黨有的時候也要稍微平衡一下這樣的社會氛圍而不是放任這樣的東西到最後用情緒我們會理性溝通爭取共識爭取共識好不好多花點時間嚴肅討論可以嗎是謝謝你委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時32分）謝謝主席。邱主委要不要喝口水？還可以嗎？那就麻煩你。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安，辛苦了。從兩個角度探討一下有關今天的法案審查與詢答。第一個本席想就教的是，制度的明確性與立法時大家的溝通責任。也就是說，現在有很多民進黨的同事提出兩岸人民關係條例、港澳關係條例修正草案，請問陸委會是不是會有院版作為對照參考？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，為了落實17項因應策略，我們除了負責行政方面的措施之外，修法部分，包括兩岸條例我們也會提院版。"],["牛委員煦庭：會有院版？有時間表嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：時間表就是目前整個行政作業還在作業過程中，所以現在不方便……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在是在草擬階段、研究階段、還是報院審查？譬如你們先達成共識，再報行政院核定；行政院院會核定之後才會送立法院？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對、對。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在走到哪裡了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：現在在行政院。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們已經寫完了？在行政院？就表示你們的內容……"],["邱主任委員垂正：還在討論當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：還要討論一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：整個程序還沒走完。"],["牛委員煦庭：我之所以提院版的必要性，是因為不管行政端或立法委員在修正任何法案時，必須清楚大家都要擔負論述跟溝通的責任。以現在這幾個版本來講，主委在報告時都說支持這樣的修法方向，但其實在報告內容裡有提到，這樣的法律修正涉及對人民言論及表意範疇的限制，文字屬不確定法律概念，為注意兼顧民眾基本權益之保護、使民眾可以預見相關規範內涵、行政機關得以認定及執行，及司法審查得以確認，相關規範要進一步研議，對不對？表示如果今天照委員的版本通過，其實是有一些危險性的，因為講得並不清楚，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，就是法律構成要件還要再明確一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：簡單來說就是法律的明確性原則，這點不管在之前國安法的審查，或今天兩岸人民關係條例的審查，那條紅線畫在哪裡，其實是越清楚越好！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣大家才知道那條紅線很明確，而不會造成法律被濫用！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實院版已經起草得差不多了，只是尚未定案，對不對？為什麼不在報告裡清楚敘明？也就是怎麼寫這個規範才會比較清楚？你只有講委員版不清楚，卻沒有講怎麼樣才算比較清楚，你是不是在這邊做一下補充說明？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。我們所設計未來的院版，係以落實17項相關因應策略為主，所以我們設計的方向可能跟今天委員提案的主旨未必完全一致。不過今天提案委員的版本，很多都是民主防衛機制……"],["牛委員煦庭：我順著這個往下問。你說未必跟現在委員提案的版本一致，是指強度上的不一致，還是方向上的不一致？"],["邱主任委員垂正：規範的內容或是規範的一些……"],["牛委員煦庭：連方向上可能都不一致？"],["邱主任委員垂正：立法態度當然要很嚴謹，今天委員提的案子很多，但剛剛也有委員說案子沒有被提出，還在程序委員會沒有付委……"],["牛委員煦庭：我沒有問你……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的案子是以落實賴總統所提出之17項因應策略為主的規管措施……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天之所以要提這一段，是因為所謂的立法其實是從答詢開始，這就是溝通的開始！如果你今天只在報告裡講委員的東西不明確，卻沒有明確講出應該是什麼，就某種層面來說會變成原地踏步。既然有院版……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，院版出來後，我們會跟委員會報告我們的理念設計跟提案的……"],["牛委員煦庭：法律明確性是本席比較要求的！像之前幾次修正，包含國安法等在內，都出現大量起訴，但最後被判有罪的比例並沒有那麼高，對不對？不過任何人一旦被起訴、被偵查、被偵辦，就可能在社會上被貼標籤，會受到一定的衝擊或形象的打擊等等，到最後卻可能沒事……如此，就某些層面來講其實是傷及無辜，因此，立法的設計技術跟品質本來就要從前端嚴格把關。我希望這樣的法案修正……當然，大家都希望以國家安全為重，問題在於討論的過程不能不理性、不能不嚴謹，好不好？這是我要提醒的第一點。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，我順著往下講，現在社會的氛圍對於理性討論的影響。主委，你是兩岸關係的主管機關，本來應該希望大家可以合理交流對談等等，但現在大家好像都在問你要怎麼防備、怎麼三管五卡。這固然是因為氛圍不好，不過現在的氛圍是萬事皆統戰，青鳥說了算！主委，你最近有沒有看新聞？有人在路上直播拍影片，突然有一個人跑進來說六四天安門！然後那個直播的人說幹什麼？我是臺灣人耶，鬧了烏龍！為什麼發生這種事？主委知道嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：請說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為網路上有很多青鳥說現在我們已經被滲透了，很多人都用直播什麼的，偷拍我們的設施，所以大家要挺身而出，去阻擋這些人！現在變得任何人……之前有人喜歡拍馬路、拍路口，就喜歡拍這種無意義的照片，喜歡收集這樣的照片，結果現在被人家盤問、被人家阻止，出現很多這樣的事！經民連要向北港鎮公所申請路權，但因為北港的廟要辦廟會，所以鎮公所說可不可以喬別的時間？沒想到青鳥在網路上講，北港媽祖被中共統戰！現在到處都是這樣的聲音！主委有沒有觀察到這樣的事情？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。我們國人開始重視國安，對於中共對臺的滲透、統戰開始關注，像招攬年輕朋友赴陸交流、參加比賽等等，對這些統戰活動國人過去可能都沒有那麼關心，但滿多人打電話到陸委會來……"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，我講這些故事的原因在於，現在社會正處於焦慮中，而且這個焦慮已經超出了理性範疇！連在路上拍路口都會被人家盤問，這不是很奇怪嗎？你開個直播就被人亂入，這是不太好的狀況！"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果有澄清的話，就可以得到理解……"],["牛委員煦庭：對！我的意思是，即便有這樣的氛圍，大家在立法討論時還是要理性，不能被這樣的東西牽著走……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我非常贊成在理性的環境下推動……"],["牛委員煦庭：以免做出不好的……我們是在野黨，你們是執政黨，至少我們可以理性討論、講道理，並在這件事情上達成一致的共識，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：強化社會溝通、爭取共識，這是我們的職責所在，也謝謝委員指導。"],["牛委員煦庭：我之所以說一定要理性討論的原因在於，如果執政當局連這條線都要配合這種焦慮情緒亂畫一通的話，會出事！比如有幾個版本提到有任何矮化國家的意圖，或矮化國家的相關言論，或配合大陸地區有統戰目的的政治宣傳行為等等，未來會列入防守範圍並開罰，對不對？剛剛很多人都問，賴清德總統的併購論算不算某一種層面的矮化？如果統戰是大家說了算，那麼和平談判促成統一也一定是統戰的一環……"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員不要過度解讀！兩岸互動應該要對等尊嚴，相互尊重！"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天不是要跟你吵架，我就是提醒你這件事。因為統戰是很模糊的概念，既然是很模糊的概念，那麼大家就會說只要坐下來談就是統戰！你去參加交流、去參加比賽，他也講你統戰！你去觀光，他也講你統戰！你去路口拍照，他都講你是統戰！在這樣的情況之下，如果我們的法律寫任何相關行為都要受罰，如此會不會變成很奇怪的狀況？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們也跟委員持一樣看法，對於言論跟表意的範疇要比較審慎！"],["牛委員煦庭：對！如果言論跟表意都要在這次立法被管制的話，那麼賴清德總統的併購論絕對會第一個被拿出來挑戰。所謂併購，當然是有條件、有前提，可是說大公司併小公司……第一，我們是被併的；第二，如果提條件就表示要談判，豈不是說要透過談判的方式解決兩岸問題嗎？這是賴總統的官方立場，是陸委會的官方立場嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員對這個議題就不要過度解讀，我們只是說兩岸在互動的時候還是要秉持著，你要正視我的存在，我們要對等尊嚴、相互尊重……"],["牛委員煦庭：我願意多聽主委講幾句，我也希望大家在立法過程中不要被太過焦慮的社會氛圍影響！執政黨有時候也要稍微平衡一下這樣的社會氛圍，而不是放任這樣的東西，到最後用情緒……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會理性溝通，爭取共識。"],["牛委員煦庭：要理性溝通，爭取共識，好不好？多花點時間，嚴肅討論，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝牛委員。"],["主席：請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","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我們請邱主委好 請主委"},{"start":14.574,"end":38.123,"text":"主委好 針對你們陸委會在報告的第二頁提到說為避免中共利用台灣民眾發表矮化我方主權等相關正義的言行混淆我國認同以稅請其侵略並吞台灣之政治目的本提案有助於維護我國主權與尊嚴所以陸委會予以支持"},{"start":39.229,"end":59.132,"text":"主委既然你這邊要談矮化跟談尊嚴我們今天就再來探討一下賴清德總統說的大公司的併購說上次在質詢的時候我請教過您賴總統說的中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果大公司要併購小公司大陸應該要提條件不是台灣來提條件"},{"start":60.513,"end":73.784,"text":"像是主委您是請我不要過度延伸總統的話那今天我們就從字面上來討論我要很嚴肅的請教主委為什麼我們的總統要公開宣稱台灣是比較小的公司"},{"start":75.249,"end":91.885,"text":"國家元首在國際跟全民之前用小來形容自己的國家地位這難道不是自我矮化嗎難道國家的主權還有大小之分嗎難道這樣的說法不是在傷害台灣的主權跟尊嚴嗎請主委回答委員我還是要強調兩岸的互動不應該"},{"start":98.749,"end":127.862,"text":"不然是創設一個我們無法接受的前提然後把不交流是說併購這兩個字嗎不是你不能說你一定要接受我一中原則的九二共識你必須要先接受我們要先接受台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分總統說的併購說你同意嗎他說我們是小公司兩個互動要對等尊嚴相互尊重那請問一下他說我們自己是小公司這樣有沒有矮化的"},{"start":128.547,"end":154.355,"text":"他只是做一個兩岸在互動的時候你不要設置我們無法接受的前提那這個前提就是要求台灣變成地方政府台灣成為中華人民共和國的一部分所以面對主權的時候我們是寸步都不能退讓不該有這種什麼小公司的比喻不管是用什麼比喻我覺得用這樣來形容自己這種"},{"start":156.337,"end":171.414,"text":"自貶式的一個角色的一個敘述都不是一個國家的元首那賴總統是什麼意思那請您解釋一下好 主委不要預加我們無法接受的前提不是 主委 那我給你30秒不接受 你就不需要用賴總統說的這個小公司是什麼意思我給你30秒時間"},{"start":178.032,"end":185.861,"text":"兩岸互動應該要秉持著對等尊嚴 相互尊重這只是在做兩岸互動的比喻 不用過度的延伸不是過度的延伸 我現在在請教你 你也講不出來好 我們現在再來講"},{"start":199.016,"end":206.578,"text":"我跟委員報告我每次在做民調一年以來有七成以上的民眾不贊成台灣接受中國大陸不合理的政治檢體我沒有惱羞成怒我只是說兩岸的互動應該要對等尊嚴 相互尊重"},{"start":219.702,"end":240.114,"text":"他應該要正視中華民國客觀存在的事實我一直問你我們總統說的這個小公司什麼意思你都不敢正面回答代表你就知道這樣的敘述是不對的這樣有自我矮化的一個問題所以你一直不敢正面回答我一直在扯東扯西的我沒有不正義而是說不用過度的解讀跟區別如果今天這些話"},{"start":241.255,"end":260.796,"text":"是國際媒體還有對岸的媒體來引用賴總統說的小公司的言論大作文章請問我們要怎麼澄清我跟國際媒體講這個他們就聽得懂你跟他互動就是要對等尊嚴不必要相互尊重你不要拿一個我們無法接受的前提嘛自我矮化的意思嗎"},{"start":262.182,"end":275.867,"text":"你不要設置一個我們無法接受的前提嘛然後把所有的無法交流互動塞給你我們不接受就用軍機艦島來威嚇我們因為要你去反駁賴總統說的話這也是為難你啦那當然今天的修法就有人提議嘛就是我們要政務副首長以上檢任13職以上的人員還有中校以上的軍官各級公立學校校長不得參與"},{"start":291.713,"end":306.529,"text":"大陸地區的黨政軍活動否則可能違反妨礙國家尊嚴那你們也支持修法的方向請問主委所謂妨礙國家尊嚴這是法律明文定義的概念還是行政機關主觀判定的結果"},{"start":308.325,"end":331.241,"text":"我們對於委員為了強化我們民主機制為了減少對跟中國大陸被他滲透統戰分化那麼訂了這些法律那我們也有強調由於有限制民眾的這些言論或是表意的這些所以反對國家尊嚴有法律明文的定義嗎"},{"start":332.122,"end":355.694,"text":"部分我如果說進入到法律實質的部分我們願意坐下來再來斟酌自言就是一個主觀判定嘛那也就是說如果在活動上奏大陸的國歌我們代表就是尊重主辦方的國際禮儀然後站起來的話這樣會不會說是配合統戰跟委員報告我們現行的法律還不是修法對於中國大陸黨政軍舉辦的國家慶典"},{"start":359.036,"end":381.963,"text":"我們的如果退降或是我們的像規範的這些國家安全的這些機關的這些副首長以上的人去參加這個活動未經許可去參加這個活動對他的旗揮歌的行李唱頌行李唱頌都是違法的要依法處分這個是目前的法律規定違反什麼法"},{"start":383.255,"end":410.007,"text":"違反聯安條例具體有條之三好 那我現在請教您一下喔2026年APEC峰會將會由中國主辦屆時我們一定要派官員去參加那開幕式會奏中國的國歌我們的官員是應該要站起來還是應該要繼續做委員 這個都是經過政府核准的我們剛才講那個是未經許可的所以說參加APEC峰會的人我們到大陸去的話只要他這個站起來"},{"start":410.687,"end":414.609,"text":"唱中國的國歌站起來的時候是沒有問題的嗎我想我們每次到中國大陸參加國際會議都有一定的規範基本上他會有一個適當的表達作為同時他們是受到政府同意前往所以不受到你剛剛所說的第九條之殺所以是沒有問題嗎不好意思主席再給我三十秒"},{"start":440.3,"end":461.506,"text":"邱主委很多的時間回答最後再問您一個問題就是我們台灣在2010年的上海市博會跟2015年的米蘭市博會都有設置台灣館那儘管地緣政治的壓力存在我們依舊能夠在國際舞台上保有主體性跟名稱的尊嚴但是在今年日本大阪所舉辦的這個市博會"},{"start":464.187,"end":489.626,"text":"我們卻只能用Tech World科技館的名義參加連台灣館三個字都消失了這樣的退讓與隱身不僅是對我國主權性的自我切割也是對我們人民的這個雙重背叛更離譜的是根據中央社的報導這個是日本共同社引述知情人士指出是日本外務省的應中國的要求向我方施壓要求不得冠名台灣主委請問一下"},{"start":490.807,"end":509.542,"text":"這樣是不是中國對我國的民意的打壓這樣是不是配合中國的行為如果說連台灣管三個字都不敢說那還是台灣政府嗎那也不是贊重了對岸去台灣化的這個下懷而且這個就叫維護國家尊嚴嗎所以如果這樣子的話那你覺得我們是不是應該"},{"start":510.97,"end":523.72,"text":"要處罰經濟部 因為他算不算配合統戰我想我們要譴責的是中共對台灣的外交打壓無所不用其極 這個只會讓台灣人那我們自己是不是應該堅守自己的尊嚴呢否則為什麼2010的世博會可以2015的米蘭世博會也可以唯獨2025的世博會卻不行而且我方也接受了"},{"start":537.611,"end":544.534,"text":"我們可以不要去設啊既然矮化我們不讓我們設台灣管我們也可以不要去設啊所以連自己國家的名字都不敢說出口的政府喔我覺得有什麼資格去處罰台灣人民有什麼資格去處罰所謂的我們的一些台灣的演藝人員說他們不夠愛國所以請你們從這個大阪的這個科技管的名字開始先處罰我們還是要譴責中共對台灣的打壓我覺得要先從自己做起謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時23分）謝謝主席，我們請邱主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委好。主委。針對你們陸委會在報告的第二頁提到「為避免中共利用臺灣民眾發表矮化我方主權等相關爭議言行，混淆我國家認同以遂行其侵略、併吞臺灣之政治企圖，本提案有助於維護我國家主權與尊嚴，本會予以支持。」主委，既然你這邊要談矮化、談尊嚴，我們今天就再來探討一下賴清德總統說的大公司併購說。上次在質詢的時候我請教過您，賴總統說中國是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，如果大公司要併購小公司，大陸應該要提條件，不是臺灣來提條件。上次主委請我不要過度延伸總統的話，那今天我們就從字面上討論。我要很嚴肅地請教主委，為什麼我們的總統要公開宣稱臺灣是比較小的公司？國家元首在國際以及全民之前，用小來形容自己的國家地位，這難道不是自我矮化嗎？難道國家的主權還有大、小之分嗎？難道這樣的說法不是在傷害臺灣的主權跟尊嚴嗎？請主委回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，我還是要強調，兩岸的互動不應該去創設一個我們無法接受的前提，然後把不交流……"],["許委員宇甄：是說併購這兩個字嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是，不能說你一定要接受我一中原則的九二共識，或是我們要先接受臺灣是中華人民共和國的一部分……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，總統說的併購說，你同意嗎？他說我們是小公司。"],["邱主任委員垂正：他只是一個比喻而已，兩岸的互動要對等尊嚴、相互尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：好。那請問一下，他說我們自己是小公司，這樣有沒有矮化的問題？"],["邱主任委員垂正：他只是做一個兩岸在互動時候的比喻，也就是不要設置我們無法接受的前提，這個前提就是要求臺灣變成地方政府、臺灣成為中華人民共和國的一部分。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，兩岸關係本來就是非常、非常敏感的，所以面對主權的時候，我們是寸步都不能退讓，不該有這種什麼小公司的比喻，不管是用什麼比喻，我覺得用這樣來形容自己，這種自貶式的角色敘述，都不是一個國家的元首……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想賴總統也不是這個意思……"],["許委員宇甄：那賴總統是什麼意思，是不是請您解釋一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：也請委員不要……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我給你……"],["邱主任委員垂正：不要欲加我們無法接受的前提，逼著我們要接受，不接受，你就用各種軍事威脅……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我給你30秒，請你解釋賴總統說的這個小公司是什麼意思，我給你30秒的時間，你剛剛說總統不是這個意思嘛，我誤解了，給你30秒解釋總統到底是什麼意思。"],["邱主任委員垂正：兩岸互動應該要秉持對等尊嚴、相互尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有、沒有，你剛剛講我誤解總統的意思，那請您說總統是什麼意思，你講不出來嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：這只是在做兩岸互動的比喻，不用過度延伸。"],["許委員宇甄：不是過度延伸，我現在在請教你，你也講不出來嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對岸加諸在我們的那種前提，我們可以接受嗎？我跟委員報告……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在要問的是，請問總統說我們自己是小公司，是什麼意思？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們每次在做民調，一年以來有七成以上的民眾不贊成臺灣接受中國大陸不合理的政治前提。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，你不要惱羞成怒……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我沒有惱羞成怒，我只是說兩岸的互動應該要對等尊嚴、相互尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在請教你的是總統說我們自己是小公司，這樣不是矮化，什麼才是矮化？"],["邱主任委員垂正：它應該要正視中華民國客觀存在的事實。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我一直問你，我們總統說的這個小公司是什麼意思，你都不敢正面回答，代表你就知道這樣的敘述是不對的，這樣有自我矮化的問題，所以你一直不敢正面回答我，一直在扯東扯西的……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我沒有不正面回答，而是說不用過度解讀跟曲解。"],["許委員宇甄：而且我跟你講，如果今天這些話有國際媒體還有對岸媒體引用賴總統說的小公司言論大作文章，請問我們要怎麼澄清跟應對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我跟國際媒體講這個，他們都聽得懂……"],["許委員宇甄：聽得懂什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：你跟人家互動就是要對等尊嚴，要相互尊重，你不要拿一個我們無法接受的前提嘛。"],["許委員宇甄：你的意思是說聽得懂小公司是代表自我矮化的意思嗎？你的聽得懂指的是什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：你不要設置一個我們無法接受的前提，然後把所有無法交流的互動塞給我們，我們不接受就用軍機艦擾臺威嚇我們。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想我也不要為難你，因為要你去反駁賴總統說的話，這也是為難你啦。當然今天的修法就有人提議，就是政務副首長以上、簡任十三職等以上的人員，還有中校以上的軍官、各級公立學校校長不得參與大陸地區的黨政軍活動，否則可能違反妨害國家尊嚴，你們也支持修法的方向。請問主委，所謂妨害國家尊嚴，這是法律明文定義的概念，還是行政機關主觀判定的結果？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對於委員為了強化我們的民主機制，為了減少被中國大陸滲透、統戰、分化而訂定這些法律，我們也有強調，由於有限制民眾言論或是表意的範疇……"],["許委員宇甄：所以妨害國家尊嚴有法律明文定義嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個部分如果進入法律實質的部分，我們願意坐下來再斟酌字眼。"],["許委員宇甄：所以目前沒有，就是主觀判定嘛。也就是說如果在活動上奏大陸的國歌，我們的代表尊重主辦方的國際禮儀站起來的話，這樣會不會被說是配合統戰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們現行的法律，還不是修法，對於中國大陸黨政軍舉辦的國家慶典，我們的退將或是像規範提到的這些國家安全機關副首長以上的人，未經許可去參加這個活動，對它的旗、徽、歌等行禮、唱頌都是違法的，要依法處分，這是目前的法律規定。"],["許委員宇甄：好，違反什麼法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：違反兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三。"],["許委員宇甄：好。我現在請教您一下，2026年APEC峰會將會由中國主辦，屆時我們一定要派官員去參加，開幕式會奏中國的國歌，我們的官員應該要站起來還是應該繼續坐著？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，這都是經過政府核准的，我們剛才講的那個是未經許可的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我們參加APEC峰會的人到大陸去，在唱中國國歌的時候站起來是沒有問題的，是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們每次到中國大陸參加國際會議都有一定的規範。"],["許委員宇甄：所以就沒有問題，是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：基本上，他會有一個適當的表達作為，同時他們是受到政府同意前往，所以不受到你剛剛所說第九條之三規定的限制。"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以沒有問題嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["許委員宇甄：不好意思，主席再給我30秒，因為我給邱主委很多時間回答。","最後再問你一個問題，我們臺灣在2010年的上海世博會跟2015年的米蘭世博會都有設置臺灣館，儘管地緣政治的壓力存在，我們依舊能夠在國際舞臺上保有主體性跟名稱的尊嚴，但是在今年日本大阪所舉辦的世博會，我們卻只能用TECH WORLD科技館的名義參加，連臺灣館三個字都消失了，這樣的退讓與隱身不僅是對我國主權性的自我切割，也是對我們人民的雙重背叛。更離譜的是，根據中央社的報導，日本共同社引述知情人士指出，是日本外務省應中國要求向我方施壓，要求不得冠名臺灣。主委，請問一下，這樣是不是中國對我國民意的打壓，這樣是不是配合中國的行為？如果連臺灣館三個字都不敢說，那還是臺灣政府嗎？不是正中對岸去臺灣化的下懷，而且這就叫維護國家尊嚴嗎？如果是這樣子的話，你覺得我們是不是應該要處罰經濟部？它算不算配合統戰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們要譴責的是中共對臺灣的外交打壓，無所不用其極，這只會讓臺灣人對中國大陸持續反感。"],["許委員宇甄：我們自己是不是應該要堅守自己的尊嚴呢？否則為什麼2010的世博會可以，2015的米蘭世博會也可以，唯獨2025的世博會卻不行？而且我方也接受了，我們可以不要去設啊，既然矮化我們，不讓我們設臺灣館，我們也可以不要去設啊。連自己國家名字都不敢說出口的政府，我覺得有什麼資格去處罰臺灣人民，有什麼資格去處罰一些臺灣的演藝人員，說他們不夠愛國？所以請你們從大阪世博會科技館的名字開始，先處罰我們自己。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們還是要譴責中共對臺灣的打壓。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得要先從自己做起，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc18fcb7abec43a25857d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e870f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:14:28 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請主委邱經緯也好今年的3月13號賴清德總統他宣布說中國是境外敵對勢力之後的這兩個月當中呢國安法的修法被提出來了那今天呢港澳關係條例還有兩岸人民關係條例的修法也提出來了"},{"start":36.805,"end":62.075,"text":"從民進黨立法委員們所提出來的修法版本裡面我們可以看到一種以國家安全為名然後把法條徵修的越來越嚴罰款越來越高管制的人員還有範圍也越來越寬看來呢民進黨你們是要把14億人口的中國都定義成"},{"start":62.816,"end":76.445,"text":"境外敵對勢力而並不是為了對付敵人而是為了那個把我們的政治思考和民進黨政府不同的台灣人民變成敵人"},{"start":77.888,"end":102.97,"text":"變成通敵的中共同路人那麼今天呢我們在內政委員會裡面要討論修法行政院和上一次我們還在這邊審的國安法的時候他一直都沒有提出版本耶既然周主委你說這是賴總統他的指示你們行政院是不是應該有版本啊請問一下陸委會有沒有版本"},{"start":104.049,"end":126.975,"text":"跟委員報告有關於落實17項的因應策略修法也是一個我們強化法制作業重要的一個環節為什麼行政院跟相關部門一直都沒有版本都是立法委員的版本請你回答我們是跟委員報告我們現在還在整個作業當中所以行政院跟你會提出版本囉會"},{"start":127.975,"end":147.653,"text":"我們會提出兩岸條例的版本好 那麼你對於現在民進黨立委所提出來的修法版本你有什麼看法我想他們都是在強化民主防衛機制目的還是希望能夠守護我們在台灣自由民主的生活方式"},{"start":148.835,"end":169.012,"text":"那有关于他们提出这些其实跟我们的立场态度是为了这个减少在受到因为跟中国大陆交流所引发这个统战渗透分化的影响我以为你是国安局你是陆委会好了既然你这么讲那我就请问你"},{"start":169.812,"end":191.324,"text":"這次有關兩岸人民關係條例的修法版本裡面 邱志偉委員的版本他修了第九條的第十項他在台灣地區人民進入大陸地區者不得從事妨害國家安全或利益的活動的這個條文後面增加了亦不得配合 複合大陸地區的黨務 軍事 行政或具政治性機構 團體 而"},{"start":194.506,"end":214.302,"text":"發表危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容這個危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容到底是什麼呢我才疏學淺請問一下你能不能具體的告訴大家到底是什麼"},{"start":215.806,"end":228.989,"text":"我想韋瑩的目的,她還是在避免中共利用我們台灣沒有,我說危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序比如說消滅中華民國主權這個已經是在法條裡面了嘛我知道,比如說在消滅中華民國主權"},{"start":236.771,"end":254.457,"text":"光是發表這樣的講話就能夠危害中華民國了嗎中華民國什麼時候變得那麼沒有自信那麼脆弱呢我們看一下鼓吹武統台灣鼓吹用武力的方式來侵略台灣像這些嘴巴講就可以啊來看一下蔡英文總統她之前也是陸委會的主委"},{"start":263.205,"end":283.161,"text":"2000年8月4號他說陸委會主委蔡英文表示台灣無法逃避一個中國的問題從文化地理來看未來的一個中國是台灣民眾唯一的選擇蔡英文表示一個中國是我們必須面對的問題台灣沒有空間跟可能性去逃避一個中國的問題"},{"start":284.782,"end":296.472,"text":"陳水扁所提的九二精神最重要的特質就是交流、對話、擱置爭議。若中國大陸覺得九二年所發生的事情對雙方的關係是重大而有意義的,我們願意朝這個方向來解釋或考慮。他說,被擱置的爭議總是有一天會被解決的。"},{"start":307.04,"end":312.565,"text":"如果交流對話是成功的話外在的客觀環境會改變一個中國的問題的解決就相對變得簡單蔡英文認為無論是統一、台獨或維持現狀台灣人民只有一個選擇那就是未來的一個中國"},{"start":328.098,"end":355.069,"text":"他指出 台灣除了少數原住民之外 就是我啦大部分都是從中國大陸移民而來的雖然現在在你們的口中這些人叫做其餘人雖然台灣是一個開放性的多元文化但中國文化仍然是核心這是當時的陸委會主委也是我們前總統蔡英文她說的"},{"start":355.669,"end":381.338,"text":"然後我們再來看一下你們現在沒有自信到什麼程度呢你們除了在法條上規範之外呢你還要罰款如果這些人講了這些話你要處台幣一萬五千塊以上五萬元以下然後要按次處罰我要再請問一下主委這個第九條第十項提到的台灣地區人民指的是台灣地區的所有人民對吧是的好 照你說立法委員 是嗎"},{"start":386.049,"end":411.399,"text":"是你們漏洩前天梁副主委不是說嗎樂見立法委員和民間在兩岸之間交換意見啊那要怎麼樣的兩岸交流才不會危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序呢立法可以這麼抽象的我希望你們提出來的立法不要那麼抽象好不好我要再講的是這樣的法條一旦修出來從此之後"},{"start":414.58,"end":423.486,"text":"台灣人民在大陸的一言一行都要被政府檢驗連我們的思想都要被你們檢驗一旦政府認為有問題呢 我們的人民只要一下飛機到了我們的台灣 就要等著收罰單 是不是我看啊 孫主委你也別講太多了 我時間到了"},{"start":437.156,"end":439.318,"text":"與其把台灣搞得這麼風聲鶴唳 不如乾脆停止ECFA然後呢 全面的斷行什麼立法委員啊 民間人士的交流也不必了啦台灣那就等著我們賴清德總統說的大公司跟小公司的併購會議上 我們再一起談"},{"start":461.038,"end":471.748,"text":"我認為很奇怪了你們你們既要享受ECFA的好處然後又要恐嚇懲罰創造好處的台商和人民然後把大家認為人心房我還沒向你說話"},{"start":475.424,"end":492.897,"text":"你們這段時間的做法還不恐嚇人民啊弄得大家人心惶惶的這樣你們很開心了是不是你們民進黨啊真的是一代不如一代我記得以前徐新娘前輩也是以前民進黨的主席曾經說過大膽西進 越馬中原這樣的大氣魄已經不見了而現在的民進黨只剩下什麼只剩下會欺負台灣人民啊民進黨你們真是墮落"},{"start":504.675,"end":506.664,"text":"這不是事實委員我們不接受這樣的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時14分）謝謝主席，有請邱主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：今年的3月13號，賴清德總統宣布中國是境外敵對勢力，之後的這2個月當中，國安法的修法被提出來了，今天港澳關係條例還有兩岸人民關係條例的修法也提出來了。從民進黨立法委員們所提出來的修法版本裡面，我們可以看到一種以國家安全為名，然後把法條增修得越來越嚴、罰款越來越高，管制的人員還有範圍也越來越寬，看來民進黨是要把14億人口的中國都定義成境外敵對勢力。這並不是為了對付敵人，而是為了把政治思考和民進黨政府不同的臺灣人民變成敵人、變成通敵的中共同路人。今天我們在內政委員會裡面要討論修法，和上一次我們在這邊審國安法的時候一樣，行政院一直都沒有提出版本。既然邱主委說這是賴總統的指示，你們行政院是不是應該有版本？請問一下陸委會有沒有版本？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，有關於落實17項因應策略，修法也是我們強化法制作業重要的一個環節。"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼行政院跟相關部門一直都沒有版本，都是立法委員的版本？請你回答我為什麼。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，跟委員報告，我們現在還在整個作業當中……"],["高金委員素梅：所以行政院跟你會提出版本囉？"],["邱主任委員垂正：會，我們會提出兩岸條例的版本。"],["高金委員素梅：好，對於現在民進黨立委所提出來的修法版本，你有什麼看法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想他們都是在強化民主防衛機制，目的還是希望能夠守護我們在臺灣自由民主的生活方式。有關於他們提出這些，其實我們的立場、態度是為了減少受到跟中國大陸交流所發統戰滲透、分化的影響。"],["高金委員素梅：我以為你是國安局，你是陸委會，好啦！既然你這麼講，我就請問你，這次有關兩岸人民關係條例修法版本裡面，邱志偉委員的版本修了第九條第十項，他在「臺灣地區人民進入大陸地區者，不得從事妨害國家安全或利益之活動」的後面增加了「亦不得配合、附和大陸地區黨務、軍事、行政或具政治性機關（構）、團體，而發表危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容」，這個危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容到底是什麼呢？我才疏學淺，請問一下，你能不能具體地告訴大家到底是什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，我想委員的目的還是在避免中共利用我們臺灣民眾……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我說危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序……"],["邱主任委員垂正：比如說消滅中華民國主權……"],["高金委員素梅：這個已經在法條裡面了嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我知道，比如說在消滅中華民國主權……"],["高金委員素梅：好，光是發表這樣的講話就能夠危害中華民國嗎？中華民國什麼時候變得那麼沒有自信、那麼脆弱呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：比如說鼓吹武統臺灣……"],["高金委員素梅：我們看一下……"],["邱主任委員垂正：鼓吹用武力的方式侵略臺灣，像這些……"],["高金委員素梅：嘴巴講就可以啊？來看一下，蔡英文總統之前也是陸委會的主委，2000年8月4號，陸委會主委蔡英文表示，臺灣無法逃避一個中國的問題，從文化、地理來看，未來的一個中國是臺灣民眾唯一的選擇。蔡英文表示，一個中國是我們必須面對的問題，臺灣沒有空間跟可能性逃避一個中國的問題。陳水扁所提的九二精神最重要的特質就是交流、對話、擱置爭議，若中國大陸覺得92年所發生的事情對雙方的關係是重大而有意義的，我們願意朝這個方向解釋或考慮。他說被擱置的爭議總是有一天會被解決的，如果交流對話是成功的話，外在的客觀環境會改變，一個中國問題的解決就相對變得簡單。蔡英文認為，無論是統一、臺獨或維持現狀，臺灣人民只有一個選擇，就是未來的一個中國。他指出，臺灣除了少數原住民之外，就是我啦！大部分都是從中國大陸移民而來的，雖然現在在你們的口中這些人叫做其餘人，雖然臺灣是一個開放性的多元文化，但中國文化仍然是核心，這是當時的陸委會主委，也是我們前總統蔡英文說的。然後我們再來看一下，你們現在沒有自信到什麼程度呢？你們除了在法條上規範之外，你還要罰款，如果這些人講了這些話，你要處臺幣1萬5,000元以上、5萬元以下，然後要按次處罰。我要再請問一下主委，這個第九條第十項提到的臺灣地區人民，指的是臺灣地區的所有人民，對吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，照理說立法委員也是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["高金委員素梅：你們陸委會前天梁副主委不是說嗎？樂見立法委員和民間在兩岸之間交換意見啊！那要怎麼樣的兩岸交流才不會危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序呢？立法可以這麼抽象的啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我希望你們提出來的立法不要那麼抽象好不好？我要再講的是，這樣的法條一旦修出來，從此之後，臺灣人民在大陸的一言一行都要被政府檢驗，連我們的思想都要被你們檢驗，一旦政府認為有問題，我們的人民只要一下飛機，到了我們的臺灣就要等著收罰單，是不是？我看主委也別想太多了，我時間到了。與其把臺灣搞得這麼風聲鶴唳，不如乾脆停止ECFA，然後全面斷航，什麼立法委員、民間人士的交流也不必了啦，臺灣就等著我們賴清德總統說的大公司跟小公司的併購會議上，我們再一起談。我認為你們很奇怪，你們既要享受ECFA的好處，然後又要恐嚇懲罰創造好處的臺商和人民，然後把大家弄得人心惶惶……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們沒有恐嚇臺商跟……"],["高金委員素梅：我還沒叫你說話！你們這段時間的作法還不恐嚇人民啊？弄得大家人心惶惶，這樣你們很開心了是不是？你們民進黨真的是一代不如一代，我記得以前許信良前輩，也是以前民進黨的主席曾經說過「大膽西進，躍馬中原」，這麼樣的大氣魄已經不見了，現在的民進黨只剩下什麼？只剩下會欺負臺灣人民，民進黨真是墮落！"],["邱主任委員垂正：這不是事實，委員，我們不接受這樣的……"],["高金委員素梅：事實！"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162093","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162093","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc10a3dde652d4fd8387d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e8792b622d999c34a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:07:33 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謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請主委黃委員好好 今天在這邊我其實非常的遺憾因為今天我們審查這個兩岸條例跟港澳條例沒有我的版本為什麼沒有我的版本我本來很期待今天可以來提案說明因為我針對兩岸條例提出了四個版本以上的修法但是沒有一條可以送進委員會"},{"start":29.756,"end":35.938,"text":"因為全部都被藍白附議了全部都被藍白在程序委員會就擋掉了我提了什麼光是這個立委附中我們很多立委都有提版本但在程序委員會就被擋了422次啊所以剛剛民眾黨的麥玉珍委員還在說什麼他們也要提一個許可制的版本在此之前先不要擋別人的版本吧不要在這邊打假球吧"},{"start":56.684,"end":60.867,"text":"真的有心要捍衛國安來這裡討論嘛來這裡討論嘛到現在連我的版本都送不進來所以我在這邊也是覺得很遺憾啊我提了除了這個立委附中之外我還有提這個如果是雙重國籍要任公職的話解職應該要繳還薪資的這個條例就是針對當初南投的這個石雪燕議員像這樣子中國籍的台灣議員"},{"start":81.243,"end":104.841,"text":"那這種如果已經被解職了是不是應該要繳還薪資那甚至是如果中港澳的人士如果入籍台灣之後他想要參選台灣的公職甚至是參選台灣的立委的話應該要附上他的放棄國籍的證明才行我認為這個都是基本的程序啊其他的外籍人士來台灣參選公職都是照這樣的程序中國籍更應該要這樣做啊結果被擋掉了被擋掉了"},{"start":108.644,"end":111.087,"text":"那甚至說這個吳斯懷條款就更不用說了我提的是什麼應該要加大範圍包括說如果你退休的少將退休的上將要帶一堆退休的這種少將上將去中國可不可以當然是不行嘛因為這樣就看起來有包括什麼海軍的退役少將"},{"start":128.144,"end":133.588,"text":"還有前立委羅志明等等涉嫌引介高達48位退將赴中然後替中共來行這個收集情收還有行統戰之實這個都是目前都還在調查當中嘛那還有包括說這個退役的上將夏迎周到中國之後在中國的論壇說今後不要分國軍共軍我們都是中國軍"},{"start":151.58,"end":178.068,"text":"後來他還接受環球時報的訪問說解放軍的戰機出現在台灣島的上空是在自己的國土上有權去巡邏這個都是台灣的退役的這些將領上將到少將在中國講的話難道這些不用去管嗎不用去規範嗎結果全部都被藍白在程序委員會擋掉了我真的覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":179.147,"end":186.067,"text":"今天在這邊審這個兩岸條例如果大家都有共識覺得國安很重要的話就應該要把這些條例放進來啊"},{"start":187.93,"end":201.874,"text":"好那因為沒有我的版本所以我在這邊除了說呼籲把我自己的版本講給大家聽希望大家都能認同之外我再來問一下最近發生的事情喔前兩天被稱為習近平國師的這個復旦大學的教授張維為他說台灣的年輕人因為喜歡小紅書所以如果統一之後治理台灣會比香港容易"},{"start":213.159,"end":214.745,"text":"我不知道主委听到这句话对于像小红书这样子的社群平台有什么看法"},{"start":219.66,"end":247.541,"text":"我想這也是第一次中國大陸有學者把這類的中國大陸在台灣非常流行的這個APP跟統一把它掛勾在一起把它聯繫起來那如果是這樣的話這些包括抖音 包括小紅書是不是也是在落實對台的這個統一也是為了統一在做準備那這樣的情況下"},{"start":248.041,"end":269.377,"text":"我想我們使用這些小紅書或者是抖音這些中國大陸這些非常著名的這些好用的軟體恐怕都要提高警覺至少我們也呼籲各級學校應該對於使用這類的APP應該要有一個試讀方面的提醒"},{"start":271.058,"end":273.259,"text":"教育的推廣知道使用這個會對有什麼樣的一種問題存在比如說包括對於你個資的影響容易個資被對岸利用之外他也在置入很多的統一的這些在你們的定義裡小紅書這樣子的社群平台是統戰工具嗎"},{"start":295.512,"end":311.293,"text":"我們一直有這個高度的懷疑啦但是我們也希望我們趕快有一個網路主管機關可以去調查去清理這些很多國人的疑問我們發現太多這個涉及"},{"start":313.135,"end":329.498,"text":"統一的聲音或者是武統的聲音還要毀棄我們中華民國主權地位的聲音甚至要毀損我們作為自由民主憲政國家的好多聲音都在這裡面"},{"start":330.419,"end":347.024,"text":"好 謝謝主委 主委講得比較保守啦其實很多的研究中都已經非常明確的定義類似像小紅書抖音這樣的平台對於中共來說很明顯就已經是一個統戰的利器了嘛是它就是一個統戰的工具了嘛甚至現在這個張維為也說了因為台灣的年輕人喜歡小紅書所以統一台灣之後比香港還容易治理耶"},{"start":355.758,"end":364.164,"text":"這件事情這樣子明確的講出來難道不用預防嗎這絕對要我們高度警惕沒錯 所以我這邊希望陸委會針對這樣的社群平台上面都在流竄什麼訊息然後針對哪一些群體喜歡使用這樣的平台會不會受到這個資訊戰 認知作戰的侵擾這個你們都應該要去加強的了解而不是在這邊說高度懷疑"},{"start":382.577,"end":405.945,"text":"這種時候還在高度懷疑會不會有點太慢了是 了解我們跟相關主管機關一直在討論這個問題那我想進一步的從法制面去歸管它已經到達非常必要的關鍵至少做到揭露嘛是相關的該揭露的至少要揭露嘛給大家警惕這個是必要的好嗎是 了解好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時7分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好。今天在這邊我其實非常遺憾，因為今天我們審查兩岸條例跟港澳條例，沒有我的版本，為什麼沒有我的版本？我本來很期待今天可以來做提案說明，我針對兩岸條例提出了4個版本以上的修法，但是沒有一條可以送進委員會，因為全部都被藍白復議了，全部都被藍白在程序委員會就擋掉了。我提了什麼？光是關於立委赴中，我們很多立委都有提版本，但在程序委員會就被擋了422次。剛剛民眾黨的麥玉珍委員還在說什麼他們也要提一個許可制的版本，在此之前，先不要擋別人的版本吧？不要在這邊打假球吧？真的有心要捍衛國安，來這裡討論嘛！來這裡討論嘛！到現在連我的版本都送不進來，所以我在這邊也是覺得很遺憾。我提出除了立委赴中之外，我還有提，如果是雙重國籍要任公職的話，解職應該要繳還薪資的條例，就是針對當初南投的史雪燕議員，像這樣子中國籍的臺灣議員，如果已經被解職了是不是應該要繳還薪資？甚至如果是中港澳人士入籍臺灣之後，他想要參選臺灣的公職，甚至是參選臺灣的立委的話，應該要附上他放棄國籍的證明才行。我認為這個都是基本的程序，其他外籍人士來臺灣參選公職都是照這樣的程序，中國籍更應該要這樣做，結果被擋掉了、被擋掉了。","甚至吳斯懷條款就更不用說了，我提的是什麼？應該要加大範圍，包括如果是退休少將、退休上將要帶一堆退休的這種少將、上將去中國可不可以？當然是不行嘛！現在看起來包括海軍的退役少將，還有前立委羅志明等等涉嫌引介高達48位退將赴中，替中共行情蒐及行統戰之實，這個目前都還在調查當中。還有包括退役的上將夏瀛洲到中國之後，在中國的論壇說：今後不要分國軍、共軍，我們都是中國軍。後來他還接受環球時報的訪問說：解放軍的戰機出現在臺灣島上空，是在自己的國土上有權巡邏。這個都是臺灣退役的這些將領從上將到少將在中國講的話，難道這一些不用去管嗎？不用去規範嗎？結果全部都被藍白在程序委員會擋掉了，我真的覺得非常遺憾。今天在這邊審兩岸條例，如果大家都有共識，覺得國安很重要的話，就應該要把這些條例放進來。","好，因為沒有我的版本，所以我在這邊除了呼籲，也把我自己的版本講給大家聽，希望大家都能認同之外，我再來問一下最近發生的事情。前兩天被稱為習近平國師的復旦大學教授張維為說，臺灣的年輕人因為喜歡小紅書，所以如果統一之後，治理臺灣會比香港容易。我不知道主委聽到這句話，對於像小紅書這樣子的社群平臺有什麼看法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想這也是第一次有中國大陸學者把這類中國大陸在臺灣非常流行的app跟統一掛勾在一起、把它聯繫起來。如果是這樣的話，包括抖音、小紅書是不是也是在落實對臺統一、為了統一做準備？這樣的情況下，我想我們使用小紅書或者是抖音這些中國大陸非常著名、好用的軟體，恐怕都要提高警覺。至少我們也呼籲各級學校對於使用這類app應該要有識讀方面的提醒跟教育的推廣，知道使用這個會有什麼樣的問題存在，比如包括對於個資的影響，個資容易被對岸利用之外，它也置入很多統一的這些思想。"],["黃委員捷：主委，我詢問一下，在你們的定義裡，小紅書這樣子的社群平臺是統戰工具嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們一直有高度的懷疑，但是也希望趕快有一個網路主管機關可以去調查、去清理這些很多國人的疑問。我們發現太多涉及統一的聲音或是武統的聲音，還有毀棄我們中華民國主權地位的聲音，甚至毀損我們作為自由民主憲政國家的好多聲音都在這裡面。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委，主委講得比較保守啦！其實很多研究中都已經非常明確地定義像小紅書、抖音這樣的平台，對於中共來說很明顯就已經是一個統戰的利器了，它就是一個統戰的工具了嘛！甚至現在張維為也說了，因為臺灣的年輕人喜歡小紅書，所以統一臺灣之後比香港還容易治理耶！這件事情這樣子明確地講出來，難道不用預防嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這我們絕對要高度警惕。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，所以我這邊希望陸委會，針對這樣的社群平台上面都在流竄什麼訊息、哪一些群體喜歡使用這樣的平台、會不會受到資訊戰、認知作戰的侵擾，這個你們都應該要加強了解，而不是在這邊說高度懷疑，這種時候還在高度懷疑會不會有點太慢了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，了解。我們跟相關主管機關一直在討論這個問題，我想進一步從法制面規管，因為它已經到達非常必要的關鍵。"],["黃委員捷：至少做到揭露嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["黃委員捷：相關該揭露的至少要揭露，給大家警惕，這個是必要的，好嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，了解。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162092","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162092","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc177d1e70f87a5200e7d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e875ffaa6d71c87aaa95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:00:29 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委員也包括"},{"start":212.526,"end":225.03,"text":"我們好多的提案也包括我們草野的委員都支持這方面的修法就我們行政院的版本我們是在積極的在研議不過因為它還在行政程序目前還不方便對外說明不過我想很快"},{"start":230.632,"end":253.106,"text":"就會來跟委員報告我們行政院版本不過委員剛剛說到我們絕對不是對藝人有歧視或懲罰絕對沒有這回事我們完全是依法那麼也對於我們有些藝人可能受到中共的這些政治脅迫逼他們做政治表態"},{"start":254.207,"end":261.914,"text":"所以我們也在了解這是不是他講出消滅我們國家主權地位或者是附和他們"},{"start":263.65,"end":288.888,"text":"軍演的這些威嚇的這些圖卡在共同短短的時間一起這麼做我想不是自發行為沒有人會相信這是自發行為而是合作的行為當然我們還是要經過查處我們是一個民主法治國家一定要有一個查處的過程我們會在查處的過程除了從管理面去了解真相之外另外我們也會關懷他們在中國大陸是不是"},{"start":291.99,"end":305.678,"text":"有很多的政治脅迫一定要講這些話才能生存如果他真的在中國大陸生存不易的話他應該可能考慮回來台灣發展我們的文化部也有很多的計畫所以我們對"},{"start":308.319,"end":310.2,"text":"藝人並不是說去打壓藝人這個政府沒有打壓藝人我們關懷他是他做得不好不愛這個國家的所謂演技在這裡主委本身要跟你說的就是說"},{"start":323.604,"end":327.005,"text":"你剛才的解說也很清楚你不是在抵押這要給自己的人因為在這個過程當中我們今天可以大家討論這個條款說實在的很簡單在程序委員會裡面我們已經放棄四百二十年了所以這是非常關鍵 要緊的事情所以你說 不可以說跟我們的關鍵來處理這個關鍵"},{"start":352.792,"end":356.836,"text":"我們政府一定不會裁判的所以說本身把你拿去說這個實質黨家要去到大陸、中國的時候要報備、要有你們的思考的心我認為這是最重要的因為捏國家的錢、捏國家的體育金是如何要報備不然他們要報備,他的體育金不要捏啊去中國捏啊"},{"start":381.901,"end":384.222,"text":"你要中華民國的退休金 包括現在你要中華民國的薪水的公告令完沒有人這樣啦 所以主委本席有提案的時候在這時候 為了國家的安全為了國家的好 尤其我們要保護民主自由的國家你們要認真去看這個條款 以上"},{"start":407.869,"end":414.522,"text":"對於軍公教人員對國教忠誠義務我們都會加強來管理也透過立法來修正好 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謝謝委員關鍵這個議題 我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假"},{"start":160.479,"end":180.356,"text":"那在11值等以上的 那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯 一個是依照法令嘛 內政部許可 一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委 為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令 可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法 把範圍再更擴大"},{"start":180.876,"end":195.527,"text":"可是如果執行上不利的話那修法的目的在哪裡是謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法可是是你要如何執行過去它自己有一個機制有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個"},{"start":197.888,"end":220.865,"text":"十字架以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法"},{"start":221.505,"end":239.077,"text":"這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法令沒有法令的就是11職人以上有法令11職人以下是內規嘛是是是那所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示嘛"},{"start":239.557,"end":258.02,"text":"大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們把修法所以你們現在有內部有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是"},{"start":260.022,"end":276.34,"text":"過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在還有就是遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同"},{"start":278.782,"end":293.517,"text":"在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務人員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰"},{"start":295.078,"end":302.144,"text":"只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰"},{"start":313.194,"end":338.16,"text":"那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事精神要計過處罰這樣的雙重標準是 謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等"},{"start":338.78,"end":360.473,"text":"所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會 因為我們立法之後啊為什麼 因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過"},{"start":362.654,"end":381.29,"text":"跟委員報告是不是有現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求如果是一般的對 照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準是不是要改善這我們會努力好 謝謝"},{"start":383.707,"end":410.231,"text":"所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分"},{"start":410.751,"end":427.845,"text":"那現在我們在討論修法公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下"},{"start":429.506,"end":445.402,"text":"是 如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這個部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好"},{"start":445.962,"end":463.731,"text":"就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們認為要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們"},{"start":465.015,"end":465.535,"text":"會不會取得有困難"},{"start":485.077,"end":505.711,"text":"應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行"},{"start":506.451,"end":523.552,"text":"那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多集的問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請"},{"start":525.054,"end":546.636,"text":"跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題 謝謝"},{"start":548.258,"end":568.676,"text":"謝謝張委員包括你講未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對 謝謝我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那會進行必要的查處"},{"start":572.159,"end":580.362,"text":"那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為"},{"start":595.788,"end":614.813,"text":"但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時50分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請邱垂正邱主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。今天是討論兩岸人民關係條例的相關修法，主要是要把適用範圍擴大、提高罰鍰，如果退休將領或公務人員有去擔任中共黨職，也要一併處以罰鍰，此外是未來可能赴港會等於赴中，以這樣的概念來進行討論和修法。本席也樂見這樣的討論，不過我要先請教主委，最近監察院的調查報告指出，過去10年有318位文職公務人員違法或違規前往中國大陸，其中包含55位高階文官和263位基層文官，基層文官當中警察人員占165件，這部分是因為警政署定期清查而被揭露，而且監察院的報告顯示實際違規人數可能更多，代表黑數可能比揭露的還更多。","其實行政院103年就召開會議，規定對各機關人員赴中應有抽查制度，現在已經10年過去了，除了警政署和陸委會以外，其他機關並沒有普遍執行這樣的動作，所以我必須要說，我們有相關的法令，可是對赴中調查的整個機制有完全虛設且完全失靈的狀況。請教主委，因為你本身在陸委會非常長的一段時間，所以我相信你有一定的責任，請問為什麼監察院的報告會明確指出現在的機制是沒有辦法實行的？為什麼只有警政署和陸委會在實行？是不是可以請主委回答一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員關切這個議題，我們也很關注，那麼多人赴陸沒有完成請假手續，事實上十一職等以下或者是警官四階以下的人赴陸，必須向原服務機關請假，十一職等以上的，赴陸要經過內政部許可……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，一個是依照法令要內政部許可，一個是依照該機關內規。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員智倫：我想要請教主委，為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差？我們其實有相關的法令，可是執行率很差，所以現在也要討論修法，把範圍再更擴大。如果執行不利的話，修法的目的在哪裡？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員給我說明的機會……"],["張委員智倫：我們支持修法，可是你要說如何執行？"],["邱主任委員垂正：過去有一個機制、有一個子法，用一般的人事管理來處理十職等以下前往的基層同仁，包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳，這個部分只有一個機制，所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼遵守。我們很重視委員提的問題，未來看能不能修法把所有的公職人員都納入，包括基層同仁，一定要依法許可。"],["張委員智倫：沒有！我了解的是現在有相關法令，但是十一職等以上有法令，十職等以下是內規，所以監察院的報告顯示，大家遵守的不一致，有些機關有在了解……"],["邱主任委員垂正：剛剛委員所說的也是我們修法的方向，我們把修法……"],["張委員智倫：所以你們內部現在已經有在討論赴陸的修法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，入法……"],["張委員智倫：什麼時候會提出來？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們正在研議，也跟各機關在商量，取得共識之後，我們很快就把它推出來。"],["張委員智倫：因為過去十年已經執行不力了，所以拜託主委不要讓有些人被懲罰，有些人沒有被懲罰；有些機關有在做，有些機關沒有在做，監察院的報告已經很明確跟您報告這件事了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，所以我們很重視。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，我要特別講的是，現在還有遇到第二個狀況，高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同，監察院的報告也明確指出，有53位違法赴中的高階公務人員移給內政部，應該依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令處罰，可是他們沒有受到任何行政處罰，連履歷存記都沒有，等於他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的紀錄。反觀263個違規的基層人員，多半受到記過懲處，甚至處罰到大過，依照考績法第二條的原則處罰。我想要請問，怎麼會有這種高官罰錢了事、基層要記過處罰這樣的雙重標準？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。您提出這個非常重要，所謂的高官可能是在學校任職的行政人員，比如在大學任職系主任、所長或院長，他們好像就是比照十二職等，雖然這些人因為在學校比較自由，不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好，要完成各種請假跟許可的程序。"],["張委員智倫：未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：會。因為我們立法之後……"],["張委員智倫：因為基層人員說，為什麼高官只有罰錢，基層人員都要被記過？現在的規定是不是有雙重標準？"],["邱主任委員垂正：學校的部分可能要持續要求，如果是一般的公務人員比較……"],["張委員智倫：照主委的講法，現在就是有雙重標準，是不是要改善？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會努力。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。既然監察院的報告的確有說，現在內政部是不是要建立統一的處理機制，不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這不應該，我們未來修法應該要有非常清楚的規範。"],["張委員智倫：接下來我還是要跟主委報告，我希望這次提高罰鍰上限不要只是表面強化處罰力道，最後違規者只用罰錢來處理。還要請問主委，現在我們在討論修法，公務員赴中後的實際行程跟活動，陸委會是不是可以確實掌握？如果沒辦法掌握，如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰？是不是可以請主委說明一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果需要聯審會許可的比較沒有問題，因為他要提出完整的行程，還有赴陸的目的，我們也可以提醒他有很多的風險，針對這個部分，移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關得很好。也就是需要內政部許可這一塊，我們會進一步要求，您剛才也說他的行程、具體資料……"],["張委員智倫：到底他去大陸做了什麼事情，你們認為要處罰？因為你們沒有相關資料，所以過去到底是怎麼處罰的，也沒有人知道。"],["邱主任委員垂正：十一職等以上、沒有到聯審會中間的這一個區塊，我們會加強這方面的審查機制，包括您剛剛提到的要有具體的資料，這部分……"],["張委員智倫：取得會不會有困難？"],["邱主任委員垂正：應該是不會。"],["張委員智倫：最後我要跟主委報告，我希望這次修法是補制度的缺口，我們都支持，方向也沒有問題，可是我們知道執行才是關鍵，不能說該申請的不申請，該查的不查，出了問題也沒有人負責，我們認為這樣的管理會是失靈的。是不是條文不夠？還是制度沒有在執行？我們希望如果修法過了，行政部門應該要依法行政，不能只是讓公文多幾頁，問題還是留著。","最後我要請教主委一個問題，也是我之前一直在請教的，就是有關臺灣藝人查核的問題，其實陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就已經跨部會協助、處理，你在5月15號也提及未來可能會調查二十幾個藝人，現在已經5月29號了，請問到底什麼時候會有進度？到底制度要怎麼執行？這是我最後的問題，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝張委員。包括你講的未來如何掌握公務員赴陸的這些動態資訊，我們都會進一步來加強。不管是藝人……"],["張委員智倫：藝人我已經問第三次了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切討論……"],["張委員智倫：主委，你也是第三次回答同樣的答案了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：會進行必要的查處。剛剛也有委員提到，最主要的問題是他所發表的言論確實在消滅中華民國主權，或者呼應對岸軍演威脅臺灣，這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送，我們認為這不是自發行為，背後極可能是黨政軍的合作行為。這是依法，我們要進行查處，所以我們會跟文化部一起進行行政查處，目前都在進行當中，有具體的成果也會跟社會報告。"],["張委員智倫：這是我第三次問你，希望下次問你的時候，有一個比較清楚的答案，好嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝張委員。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["主席：請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162090","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc15035cc643b4f70b67d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e8750af9c3d7560ef6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:42:57 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有請邱主委好 請邱主委議員好趁民眾黨麥玉珍委員還沒走 容我提醒他齁剛剛的主張其實台灣民眾黨在程序委員會的時候可以不用跟著國民黨一起在阻擋民進黨提的國安法案到這週一共422次你們聽到"},{"start":35.64,"end":60.768,"text":"對不起有點激動其實立法委員的職責職權其實在他剛剛所唸的主張裡面其實在每一個禮拜的程序委員會他民眾黨都可以表達剛剛他們認為事前報備事後報備等等的主張讓程序委員會通過之後順利進到立法院的議事程序來審議來討論到底"},{"start":63.473,"end":84.481,"text":"這幾個條例裡面包含兩岸人民關係條例強化特定人士赴中申報管理港澳條例強化特定人士赴港申報管理以及立法委員行違法他對這個敵對勢力有意見他對敵對勢力的定義就是說隔壁有一個國家"},{"start":85.049,"end":113.16,"text":"每天派幾十架軍機飛越你的領空在你的領空周圍這樣繞來繞去甚至派軍艦甚至派他們的海警在我們的這個不管是澎湖、金門、馬祖甚至台海這些領域裡面這樣繞來繞去他不認為這是敵對勢力我覺得這個可以在立法院裡面討論他說因為敵對勢力所以有意見要退回"},{"start":113.96,"end":138.678,"text":"我們在這邊今天其實感謝張路昭委安排這個議程就是針對這幾個國安法令來提出來那我想針對這幾個法令目前提出來的包含第九條如果這個沒有修我請問一下陸委會我們知道現在每週或者是每個月有多少退降"},{"start":139.514,"end":147.979,"text":"他其實是領著退休金在中國自住行自由旅行我們有辦法統計嗎"},{"start":150.507,"end":169.787,"text":"因為他們是如果說以退休的退降基本上是一般國民賦入不需要跟政府來因為他如果已經過了退職期的審核期間他就可以自由進出中國大陸"},{"start":170.647,"end":192.576,"text":"對 那所以今天包含這個第九條第三跟第九條之三還有第二項的修法裡面就是我們希望把它規範到如果它在它當然是沒有報備嘛但它如果它配合大陸地區具有統戰目的的行為的政治宣傳行為這個我們其實就要規範它也就是說"},{"start":195.27,"end":221.13,"text":"如果你還是領著退休金嘛那你還是去中國旅遊嘛但是你有參加他的活動這個活動你當到退休將領了你當然知道這個是要統戰喔那你被拍出來就是做樣板喔那你能不能參加這個活動如果你參加這個活動在那邊聽訊聽著習大大的聽訊或者甚至跟他們唱他們的國歌等等的這一些我們是不是應該要規範"},{"start":222.375,"end":246.489,"text":"是當然所以我們支持委員的提案那包括這些特定的指標性人物不管是退將還是過去處理國安相關的這些退離職人員他們賦錄他們的言行更會影響這個兩岸的視聽如果是附和或是"},{"start":247.87,"end":276.13,"text":"完全講中國大陸對台的統戰的話的話當然會影響我們民心士氣所以這個地方的強化規管這個立法方針跟政策方向我們是支持的對所以我們要透過這個立法讓有一些人他其實他可能習慣長期習慣真的是在中國旅遊啊那在中國旅遊裡面比如說我10天到底有幾天是接受他們的哪一些單位"},{"start":277.659,"end":302.876,"text":"落地接待甚至有什麼餐飲食宿的招待甚至有更多的這些高規格的這些接待的我們要不要規範我們要啊這個我們可以去這個他原來服務的機關跟他們做這方面的勸導不過我們法律是針對一些特定行為比如說我們現行的法律對於這些退將去參加中國大陸黨政軍所舉辦的各種的"},{"start":307.159,"end":323.906,"text":"典禮對於他的旗揮歌行李唱誦那有這個行為我們就會採取依法來處分對嘛你至少避一下嘛身為中華民國的退役將領這些退役將領的定義我們再把它更清楚一點"},{"start":325.006,"end":339.226,"text":"包含承認國防外交大陸事務以及國家安全相關機關國家安全相關機關其實也包含貴單位陸委會那可能也包含調查局算不算"},{"start":340.374,"end":355.195,"text":"未來都會被納入是的 算這些我這樣講其實都是中共高度想要滲透台灣國安相關單位的一些重要的這些單位而這一些退役人士"},{"start":355.915,"end":384.201,"text":"對於這些中共的這些人的價值就是他們了解台灣的國安情治系統如何運作如同我們的立法委員了解台灣的民主憲政如何維持也是中共很想要滲透的目標所以我們也支持立法委員赴中赴港必須要深最少不是法律而已最少要讓你的選民知道你去了中國見了誰你安排什麼行程合理吧"},{"start":384.915,"end":414.307,"text":"是委員剛剛說什麼這個電話局局長是不是所有的情報機關的首長包括現行法律是這樣那我們也支持把這些第九條之三的範圍把它擴大適用人更多以來確保他們的這個相關的行為符合國人的期待中共每天都在想著怎麼滲透啦所以我們法律要明定清楚來保護我們所有國人的安全"},{"start":414.928,"end":417.152,"text":"是,我們也是朝這個方向來修法"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時43分）辛苦了，有請邱主委。"],["主席：好，請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：趁民眾黨麥玉珍委員還沒走，容我提醒他，剛剛的主張，其實台灣民眾黨在程序委員會的時候可以不用跟著國民黨一起阻擋民進黨提的國安法案，到這週一共422次！有沒有聽到？","對不起，我有點激動。其實立法委員的職權在他剛剛所唸的主張裡面，在每一個禮拜的程序委員會，台灣民眾黨都可以表達，剛剛他們認為事前報備、事後報備等等的主張，讓程序委員會通過之後，順利進到立法院的議事程序來審議、來討論。這幾個條例裡面，包含兩岸人民關係條例強化特定人士赴中申報管理、港澳條例強化特定人士赴港申報管理，以及立法委員行為法，他對這個「敵對勢力」有意見啦！他對敵對勢力的定義就是隔壁有一個國家，每天派幾十架軍機飛越你的領空，在你的領空周圍繞來繞去，甚至派軍艦、派海警，在我們不管是澎湖、金門、馬祖，甚至臺海這些領域裡面繞來繞去，他不認為這是敵對勢力，我覺得這個可以在立法院裡面討論啊，結果說因為敵對勢力，所以有意見，要退回！","我們今天其實要在這邊感謝張宏陸召委安排這個議程，就是針對這幾個國安法令提出來進行審查。目前提出來的這幾個修正草案，包含兩岸人民關係條例第九條如果沒有修，我請問一下陸委會，現在每週或者是每個月有多少退將領著退休金，在中國自助行、自由旅行，我們有辦法統計嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果是已退休的退將，基本上是一般國民赴陸，不需要跟政府……因為他如果已經過了退職期的審核期間，就可以自由進出中國大陸。"],["李委員柏毅：所以今天包含兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三第二項的修法，就是我們希望把他規範到，如果他在……他當然是沒有報備嘛！但是如果他有配合大陸地區具有統戰目的之政治宣傳行為，這個我們其實就要規範他。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["李委員柏毅：也就是說，如果你領著退休金去中國旅遊，但是你有參加他們的活動，身為退休將領，你當然知道這個是要統戰，當你被拍出來，就是做樣板，那你能不能參加這個活動？如果你參加這個活動，在那邊聽訓，聽習大大訓話，甚至唱他們的國歌等等，這些是不是應該要規範？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，當然。所以我們支持委員的提案，包括特定的指標性人物，不管是退將，還是過去處理國安事務的相關退離職人員，他們赴陸的言行更會影響兩岸視聽，如果附和或是完全講中國大陸對臺統戰的話，當然會影響我們的民心士氣，所以這個地方強化規管的立法方針和政策方向我們是支持的。"],["李委員柏毅：所以我們要透過立法，讓一些可能長期習慣在中國旅遊的人，比如說我10天裡面到底有幾天是接受他們哪些單位的落地接待、餐飲食宿的招待，甚至有更多高規格的接待，這些我們要不要規範？我們要啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個我們可以去他原來服務的機關，跟他們做這方面的勸導。不過，我們的法律是針對特定行為，比如說我們現行法律對於這些退將去參加中國大陸黨政軍所舉辦的各種典禮，對於他們的旗、徽、歌行禮、唱頌，有這個行為，我們就會依法處分。"],["李委員柏毅：對嘛！至少避一下嘛！身為中華民國的退役將領，退役將領的定義我們要讓它再更清楚一點。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["李委員柏毅：包含曾任國防、外交、大陸事務以及國家安全相關機關，國家安全相關機關其實也包含貴單位陸委會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["李委員柏毅：調查局算不算？"],["邱主任委員垂正：未來都會被納入。是的，算。"],["李委員柏毅：我講的這些其實都是中共高度想要滲透的臺灣國安重要相關單位，而這些退役人士對中共這些人的價值就是他們瞭解臺灣的國安情治系統如何運作，如同我們的立法委員瞭解臺灣的民主憲政如何維持，也是中共很想要滲透的目標，所以我們也支持立法委員赴中、赴港必須要申報……"],["邱主任委員垂正：剛剛委員說的……"],["李委員柏毅：不是法律而已，最少要讓你的選民知道你去了中國、見了誰、安排什麼行程，合理吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，委員剛才說調查局局長是不是，所有的情報機關首長都包括，現行法律就是這樣。我們也支持把第九條之三的範圍擴大、適用的人更多，以確保他們的相關行為符合國人的期待。"],["李委員柏毅：中共每天都在想著要怎麼滲透啦！所以我們法律要明定清楚，以保護我們所有國人的安全。謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們也朝這個方向來修法。謝謝委員。"],["主席：請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1dbb22848829163767d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e872843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:33:47 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遷途自由和國會自律的原則我們沈伯陽委員先前曾經提出針對立委參與秘密會議人員"},{"start":39.398,"end":56.585,"text":"附中去申請與審查會審查請問我們的內政部還有我們的法務部及大陸委員會是否已經評估該提案是否可能違法"},{"start":57.745,"end":84.705,"text":"憲法第10條遷徒自由第23條的比例原則若有立委要摘以事前許可的制度也是否等同對人民或者民意代表行使憲政職能的過度干預呢所以這個部分是哪一位可以回應我"},{"start":85.774,"end":103.774,"text":"謝謝委員的關切其實我們就是按照現行條文我們第九條第四項也明確就是涉及到這個各個單位的涉密人員那其實我們陸委會都有要求"},{"start":105.716,"end":128.97,"text":"五院都要提出各個政府機關單位只要有涉及國家機密的人要覆錄都要提個名單讓我們來做審查那我們很遺憾現在只剩下立法院沒有提出來其他四院都有提出涉密人員到我們移民署來做這個覆錄的審查"},{"start":130.771,"end":150.568,"text":"那我們也多次跟大院來要求那真的是大院用這個法律明確化原則其實我們在法律上面就有明確的這個條文要求如果涉及到國家機密依法都要送這個相關的主管機關來做附錄的審查"},{"start":153.45,"end":174.782,"text":"那所以剛剛省委員說也呼籲立法院能夠提案那他這個沒有違法的是符合我們現在兩岸條例現今條文未來我們修法可以更加的明確化有法律依據這是我們未來努力的方向"},{"start":175.367,"end":176.728,"text":"但是檢視我們省委員之前提的案是否違背行政與立法權的分立原則以及是否行使行政審查侵害立法權自律的"},{"start":198.939,"end":216.563,"text":"所以立法院屬於國會依我們中華民國憲法第62條的規定立法院有義正於監督行政之職者如果立委附中需進行政機關的"},{"start":217.643,"end":240.993,"text":"组织审查会审查许可是否违反宪法之上的行政不干预国会的原则而台湾民众党主张立法院与地方议会各自为政分权自治所以包庇于通报是由"},{"start":242.372,"end":252.719,"text":"各院自行就是定定所以是否更符合就是我們的憲政的架構這個就是我們的主張"},{"start":254.073,"end":275.397,"text":"我想維護國家安全不僅是人人有責況且是我們這些軍公教人員更是要配合但是不應該有像我們法官附路也是要進行這方面的審查那不應該以願績來規避畢竟我們"},{"start":280.159,"end":295.098,"text":"在法條上就是非常清楚就是說國防外交情報大陸事務或其他相關機關從事涉及國家安全利益機密業務的人員其他相關機關也包括"},{"start":297.3,"end":322.07,"text":"現在我們講的就是我們的立法權所以我們比較強制的就是說許可審查制與報備通報制在風險反控制憲政原則之間的平衡性最後我想要請教我們大陸委員會與內政部對於立委"},{"start":323.07,"end":331.622,"text":"俘虏之火可能涉及国安的风险所以台湾民众党要求立委行前报备"},{"start":333.228,"end":355.118,"text":"行后通报而且是立法院自行制定的执行的细则是否就是具备行政监督所欲达成之透明性与风险管控的目标所以在无涉及具体危害就是你说的就是情之前是否以报备就是制度取代事前的审查更符合"},{"start":361.618,"end":365.42,"text":"比例原則啦這個就是我們大家在講的但是剛才我們為什麼說我們要擋那個沈伯源的他就是一直在強調的是說敵國敵國但是呢我們所有的立委都希望兩岸和平所以呢我們是希望你覺得是希望兩岸和平還是強調敵國"},{"start":388.55,"end":398.503,"text":"附入做必要的申請審查跟兩岸和平無關我們希望這是說你比如說我們的政官指甲式市長縣市長還有群體的分立這個都是依法"},{"start":405.171,"end":411.556,"text":"都要來申請審查許可才能附入我們也希望立法院立法委員都能夠配合我是想要問你說我們是不是希望兩岸和平我們希望兩岸和平但是兩岸和平跟附入審查是兩回事"},{"start":424.506,"end":449.98,"text":"對我們審查的兩回事但是因為我看到其他立委是講這樣子我才要問你的嘛所以中商就是三個階段的分析啦民進黨版先前提的雖然有國安的初衷但可能落入就是違憲的餘力所以包含違反就是憲法的保障制遷途自由於"},{"start":452.921,"end":456.423,"text":"議會自立的原則反觀我們台灣民眾黨的主張以分權自立的原則"},{"start":471.008,"end":489.281,"text":"建構包庇的制度尊重各權力機關自主定定的內規符合憲政的分工還有比例原則與資訊透明的要求這是一項更可行且符合法治國家的原則制度設計應得"},{"start":496.545,"end":503.45,"text":"應獲得委員會優先的討論這個就是我們的主張所以我們希望就是我們是促進兩岸和平不要就一直在就是別人說武統我們覺得是不對的但是我們也不要一直在去對立我們希望兩岸和平為我們的目標"},{"start":521.781,"end":540.07,"text":"所以委員我們還是要說我們尊重國會自治但是國會自治也不應該超越國家安全謝謝我們都不會超越剛才我們就說我們的國安為優先還有兩岸和平為目標這個就是我們的主張 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謝謝主席 我們請主委好 請主委主委好主委好 主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家 同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然 這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方"},{"start":25.674,"end":47.684,"text":"但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧"},{"start":49.801,"end":72.446,"text":"是的 我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式"},{"start":74.387,"end":89.099,"text":"來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛"},{"start":92.822,"end":117.761,"text":"好 那如果是這樣子的話 那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你 來 第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論 這有觸法嗎"},{"start":119.858,"end":134.071,"text":"我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有觸法那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有觸法嗎"},{"start":137.179,"end":140.361,"text":"我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的走機沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一台他必須要看個案"},{"start":160.216,"end":165.779,"text":"因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題"},{"start":188.171,"end":192.815,"text":"我想他會引發國人的不滿 檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛 對不對所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦"},{"start":211.852,"end":221.995,"text":"第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣"},{"start":233.499,"end":238.08,"text":"拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法"},{"start":258.246,"end":268.633,"text":"另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後"},{"start":274.577,"end":294.591,"text":"是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分"},{"start":302.697,"end":325.951,"text":"他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷"},{"start":332.301,"end":356.149,"text":"是 謝謝委員 就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些 比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論 那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為"},{"start":356.949,"end":377.656,"text":"我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為"},{"start":378.564,"end":383.585,"text":"主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由"},{"start":408.23,"end":422.765,"text":"種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好"},{"start":429.972,"end":433.356,"text":"台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛"},{"start":447.112,"end":475.445,"text":"這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準"},{"start":476.938,"end":481.334,"text":"謝謝委員也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":170,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時25分）謝謝主席。請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。主委，臺灣是一個自由民主的國家，同意吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以臺灣有言論自由？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然，這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方。"],["蘇委員巧慧：正因為臺灣依循憲政體制，是民主自由的國家，所以在有言論自由的同時，對言論自由應該有基本界限，也就是不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序，也不能有消滅國家的狀態，這點同意吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是的，我們認為雖然我們是民主法治國家，尊重國人的言論自由，這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式，但這是有界限的，比如最近要消滅我們國家的主權地位、鼓吹用武力的方式侵略臺灣，這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由，但言論自由的界限在於不能破壞憲政秩序，也不能消滅國家，這是很清楚的兩根支柱。既是如此，我請問你幾個狀態。綜觀今天你整篇報告，其實就是在言論自由與國家安全這兩個方向之間，畫出讓社會更清楚的界限展現，所以我問你，第一，如果臺灣人在臺灣自發性發表支持統一的言論，這有觸法嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以沒有觸法。如果臺灣人在臺灣發表支持中國武力統一臺灣，或支持中國對臺軍演，這樣有觸法嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這會引起臺灣極大的、相當的不安……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但引起不安不等於觸法，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們還是要了解其背後的動機……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，主委說得對。如果臺灣人在臺灣發表支持中國對臺軍演或支持中國武力統一臺灣，必須看個案而定。兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一提到，是不是有跟中國黨政軍配合發表言論，所以必須個案調查，這界限也很清楚。但如果臺灣人到中國去，已經進入中國了，且在中國發表支持中國對臺軍演、支持中國武力統一臺灣，這有沒有問題？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想會引發國人的不滿與檢舉，而我們也會非常關切，會認為他為什麼會講這種話？若如同委員所說，跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那就一定有問題，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是、是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個問題在於：他已經進入中國且發表這樣的談話，那麼除了兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一規定外，其實第九條也有規範。第九條的規定是，進入中國以後不能有危害國家安全的行為，所以我們的法律其實已經訂定相關規則。但今天的狀態是，面對中國越來越多的統戰行為，也就是中國想要統一臺灣、拿回臺灣、併吞臺灣，在這樣的過程中，行為樣態越來越多，所以我們必須檢視過去的法條是否足以規範並應對現在的狀況。因此，我們要不要討論、要不要修法、要不要更明確，好讓人民知道怎麼保護自己，而且是從言論到行為，所以這其實是在保護人民不要觸法，也是對臺灣這個民主自由國家的最大保障，這也沒有問題，對不對？所以我們今天要對行為主體、行為樣態做比較明確的規範，以及當後續行為發生之後是否有罰責做更具體的規範，這就是我們今天所討論的狀態。如果把這些狀態羅列出來的話就會很清楚，言論自由是存在的，而且有相當大的空間！換言之，你在臺灣自發性主張統一，是屬於言論自由的範圍；問題是，如果你主張用武力統一臺灣、武統，就像中配亞亞，就是因為在網路上高調宣傳支持中國以武力統一臺灣，所以移民署廢止其居留權。主委我問你，現在大家在問的藝人的部分呢？陸委會、我們的政府對藝人到底是什麼態度？若根據我剛剛講的如此清楚的規定來看，你對藝人的判斷為何？尤其是藝人最近的行為判斷。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能因被政治脅迫，發表了一些配合中國大陸軍演威嚇臺灣，或矮化、消滅中華民國主權的言論。這些我們都不認為是自發行為，其背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為，所以我們會透過這個進行必要的行政查處，看他到底受到什麼樣的脅迫。我們不認為這是自發行為，畢竟是在特定時刻、集體轉發相同圖貼、講一樣的話，我們認為極可能跟中國大陸有合作行為，所以我們會依法查處。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我認為是這樣。其實你剛剛的談話……當然，社會大眾在詢問你問題時會說，對藝人呢？但事實上，政府對藝人這個行業並沒有特別規範……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們是對所有人。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而是對全體的臺灣國民，對全體想要保護臺灣國家安全的人民做統一性規範！也就是說，臺灣的國民既然在這裡享受憲政民主秩序下的言論自由、種種的自由，那麼你對國家安全就應該要有所付出、有所保障！因此，你不能配合對岸的黨政軍，做出鼓吹武力統一臺灣的行為，就是這麼簡單的狀況，跟藝人的身分、職業沒有關係！"],["邱主任委員垂正：無關。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是對全體國人，不管是退將也好，藝人也好，臺商也好，任何人都好，都適用同樣的規定。若你的行為是受到脅迫的，這是一種狀態；但如果是合作的狀態，那你確實符合法律所規定的，如此政府就應該予以懲處、查處，這就是界定清楚，反而讓大家的行為更清楚，更知道要怎麼去做。","今天我想大家都有很多問題，時間的關係我們先談到這裡，我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次修法，再次拉出更明確的界限，讓臺灣國民知道要怎麼去做，就自己的行為、言論，讓自己安全，也讓國家安全。我希望在下次修法的時候，陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，也支持委員剛剛所有的說明與立場。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-23","speakers":["張宏陸","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","李柏毅","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","高金素梅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條\n文修正草案」案；三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之\n三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與\n大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門\n關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四\n條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145501_00015"}}},{"id":"162087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162087","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc19b60a89532903b321219069fb8f2289f0b07ac742f6d23202b94a1fe9365f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:36:01 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配質詢 謝謝"},{"start":19.933,"end":48.43,"text":"陳委員好主委好主委從去年五月TED發表之後本席就持續在關心關於TED相關的議題包括資料庫的更新以及後續的推廣等等那去年的七月呢國客會跟中研院為了持續投入旗艦級TED研發像輝達的AI超級電腦申請的這個算力的應用那想請教主委旗艦級TED跟之前發表的TED有什麼不一樣"},{"start":50.486,"end":78.664,"text":"過去我們TIDE在國會內部我們找這個學界專家來協助發展它是一個示範性的作用也是少量的經費但是我接著以後我就決定要把它擴散擴散就是我們要更多的研究人力進來那現在包含學界已經在增案了跟更多的學術研究的專家所以是延續之前的TIDE但是是規模內容更多"},{"start":79.124,"end":105.23,"text":"更進步更進步那中央研究院其實最近也有蠻好的這個進展他們將來會公佈他們研究的成果那我們也希望說藉由國科會的產學合作也希望產業界也投入投入相關的這個研究所以將來一定會發展得更順利那國防中心會建立一個平台這個平台會讓新的我們研究的成果除了TED之外還有其他的模型陸續會掛上來"},{"start":106.57,"end":131.228,"text":"是 在外國許多AI都會推出APP讓民眾方便使用那在高使用率的這個情況之下可以即時的搜尋網頁做即時的回應其實很多使用者他會習慣使用他使用的很順手他也會建立他的使用的慣用的模式那後續對我們TED在推廣上就會有一點難度因為他已經習慣使用這樣子的一個APP"},{"start":132.589,"end":151.322,"text":"國客會這邊有沒有計畫就是說我們要提供我們的Tide的內容有更具台灣文化的這些相關的資料將Tide打造成適合台灣人使用的這個AI工具報告委員 委員的建議非常好我其實正在提醒我們的國網中心因為現在Tide的這個應用"},{"start":152.583,"end":170.984,"text":"平台在觀光中心建立那我也希望觀光中心也發展出讓民眾都可以使用到的Tide的這個應用這個我們觀光中心努力一定在年底之前我要求它一定要完成都可以使用到主要是要說它是好用是順手的所以我會希望說我們建制"},{"start":172.125,"end":190.698,"text":"泰德的時候我們要結合更多的台灣的文化特色例如我們台灣的慣用語我們的台語更多台灣的元素甚至我們的風俗習慣讓民眾在使用的時候覺得說這是符合我們使用的而不是我們去遷就他其他使用的這些軟體而且這是軟體是適用於我們我們國安中心張主任你要不要保證一定要好用"},{"start":199.711,"end":215.352,"text":"保證我們會把用台灣的元素再放在這些語言模型裡面讓大家覺得好用然後也是有台灣味謝謝您的保證因為其實AI軟體是越用越好用因為越多人使用它才會是順手的是那我們資料就會更多"},{"start":215.632,"end":234.152,"text":"我們越多民眾來下載更多產業來運用它的時候我們TiDE的效益會更大更高所以感謝您的保證我也希望說盡量我們加更多的元素就是台灣人的習慣的就是會運用到的這些元素進去的話我們民眾會喜歡的去使用它習慣的去使用它"},{"start":235.794,"end":238.715,"text":"謝謝陳委員接下來我想請教主委我們國會會這邊有宣布說為了補足人力的缺口會投入智慧型機器人的研發包括像人型、四角型、四膀型等等而且首先會以智慧醫療及餐飲、旅宿業的應用為主計畫兩年之內就會有產品可以進入市場來應用"},{"start":259.281,"end":266.117,"text":"我想請教主委目前有計畫優先研發哪一種類型的機器人可以最快的投入市場"},{"start":267.295,"end":288.006,"text":"好 我們現在臺灣面臨最嚴重的人力短缺的部分可能是在健康照護的產業 旅宿餐飲的產業這些產業的需求 就是民眾的需求會造成我們自己在製造端 在系統設計供應端這邊的產業投入的意願"},{"start":292.668,"end":315.496,"text":"我們如果沒有借助我們自己產業的實力的話我們要自己發展我們的應用的產業是很困難的所以我的策略就是要針對現在台灣最嚴重的我們人力缺乏民眾需求最高的這個產業會先發展所以大概現在設定的目標在健康紮戶以及旅宿餐飲這個會先做那至於其他的學術研究部分是我們完全開放"},{"start":315.936,"end":331.533,"text":"在这两个方面我们关于智慧医疗及旅宿餐饮业我们去设计一个怎样形态的机器人来服务型都是服务型会跟人接触的那么我们也有跟产业来沟通吗我们是贴近他们的需求的吗"},{"start":331.633,"end":348.489,"text":"有 我們在規劃過程當中就是陸續跟學界跟產業界特別是產業界有兩種一種就是科技的供應端的產業那是台灣最強的我們的製造業那另外一種就是科技需求端的產業就是我們AI要應用到百工百業所有的"},{"start":348.769,"end":369.039,"text":"本集的意思就是說我們去研發這個機器人提供給我們這樣的產業來使用的時候要是符合他們需求的方向要符合需求這是最重要沒有錯那國科會這邊也預計在國研院下面要設置機器人研究中心將以研究人工智慧為主那麼機器人本體的部分是由工研院來進行研發嗎"},{"start":371.035,"end":395.631,"text":"工研院跟國研院都會研發 國研院就是要連結學界 工研院就是要連結產業界那機器人研究中心的設置的規劃是怎麼樣規劃 設置 研究中心的設置我們會利用工研院在南部的院區 南分院它就是在台南的六甲 在烏山頭水庫旁邊它有既有的基地 所以我們就不必再花"},{"start":396.491,"end":401.033,"text":"是本來就有個基地在那個地方建立這個研究的團隊跟產業界一起設計未來的產品然後製造基地經濟部也下來協助經濟部現在正在規劃一個智慧機器人的產業園區"},{"start":413.86,"end":431.51,"text":"主任因為最近就是人力荒啦各個產業尤其像醫護最近也爆很多出走潮那在本席的選區有很多傳統產業不同類型的工業也都有人力荒那國客會這次機器人的研發雖然你們是以智慧醫療及旅宿餐飲為主"},{"start":432.751,"end":437.095,"text":"也希望說陸續我們要針對工業這方面來研發機器人希望說國會會跟經濟部這邊要多於產業溝通因為傳產其實這個人力缺一直讓這個產業都非常煩惱很緊張那如果說我們可以盡快的跟產業來了解那我們研發可以舒緩這相關人力缺工壓力的這樣子的機器人這也是產業的福音"},{"start":456.092,"end":482.67,"text":"所以也希望說我們說兩年之內我們這個機器人就會進入市場來應用這個希望可以很快有好消息而且得到好的回饋那我們來發展各種的機器人來協助產業好那接下來我要請教主委是說黃能勳先生來台演講的時候有提到說會跟國科會這邊合作AI基礎設施那想請教主委針對合作的內容到目前我們有沒有討論規劃出一個比較具體的範圍或是項目"},{"start":487.312,"end":513.117,"text":"我們還沒有具體的項目但範圍大致是了解範圍就是說輝達跟鴻海他們會合作建立非常大的資料中心超級電腦的算力這個算力的目的他們宣布的一個名詞叫做AI Factory就是AI的工廠它的工廠不是指的硬體製造它是要把AI各種各樣的應用的軟體要開發出來"},{"start":516.258,"end":542.304,"text":"讓各行各業都可以使用AI我們國科會跟他合作主要就是在將來可能會推動智慧程式各種各樣的應用結合學界力量跟產業界力量一起來開發來滿足未來應用的需求這個需求也會搭配剛剛提到的我們機器人的產業因為將來要有硬體還要有AI就是我們要發展"},{"start":544.404,"end":568.974,"text":"機器要使用的智慧就是大腦相關的東西會包含晶片也包含軟體也包含控制的部分就是小腦的部分這個在中部特別強的就是控制的部分然後在北部特別強的就是晶片的產業跟南部系統的設計整合會結合在一起所以我們整個台灣都會一起來發展相關的產業"},{"start":571.135,"end":590.123,"text":"好那另外針對黃榮勳先生他有發表說對AI機器人的想法跟展望其實我們隔空會這邊也發表了智慧機器人的計畫那科學園區也新增了3000公頃的這個園區用地那這個部分我們是要為了佈局配合機器人計畫還是要用於跟輝達合作的這個AI基礎設施"},{"start":591.263,"end":611.777,"text":"其實兩個都會有需要因為兩個都會用到非常先進的半導體那這個半導體現在我們最強的就是台灣的先進製程製造的半導體產業它是台積電帶頭整個供應鏈我們在這個供應鏈國產自由的比例也越來越重所以我們現在對未來產業的需求對於我們國家的經濟的發展"},{"start":617.04,"end":640.377,"text":"我們國家安全的保障等等都非常重要那我們希望說把未來這個到2050年這個產業發展的這個需求先把它規劃起來先期規劃的好處是說我可以有足夠的時間把我們的生態保育把我們的社區文化的這個維持都能夠在我們在未來科學研究的發展當中同時都把它納進來讓民眾可以減低民眾的疑慮因為"},{"start":646.822,"end":661.395,"text":"園區的開發是要讓大家生活更好所以不是只有工廠經濟面而已而是要把文化的保持生態的保持做得更好這種新型態的園區開發我們就用大範圍但是低密度的這種開發"},{"start":663.538,"end":666.161,"text":"來發展未來的新的園區謝謝主委你們這邊是考慮到很周詳喔那另外我要請教說因為現在在教育界我們昨天教育我們也討論了這個問題就是關於川普政府暫停學生簽證的這個面試"},{"start":680.2,"end":694.158,"text":"那麼如果未來川普政府他這種美國製造的思維主要您覺得說未來美國政府會不會禁止美國人才外出就是說如果以後美國相關高科技人才將也留在美國為主您覺得說對台灣或是對國際間會不會造成怎樣的影響"},{"start":698.415,"end":720.53,"text":"我相信美國政府可能有時候有一些個案我沒有辦法評論但是整體來講美國是一個非常創新的國家我相信這種個案其實不會是全面性的會發生美國從它的歷史上看起來也是非常"},{"start":721.371,"end":734.6,"text":"非常仰賴他的移民各個年代的移民對美國的創新跟他的經濟發展有非常大的貢獻主委您的意思是說應該不至於發生這樣的狀況但是其實本席要強調就是說其實我們國際相關的科技產業的局勢其實變化萬千"},{"start":740.383,"end":763.889,"text":"有时候一个想法一句话一个决定可能就会马上会颠覆我们原来合作的相关的模式那我希望说国会会你们作为主要支持我们基础科研的这个部会以及我们是引领整个科技发展的这个方针的领头羊我们对随时对着注意这个国际上局势的变化我们必须可以随时做出反应我们守护科技也要守护人才"},{"start":764.81,"end":779.947,"text":"謝謝委員提醒對於我們自己在海外的留學生我們也都有機制也會來協助他們協助他們要轉還是要回來有好的機會讓他們發展這個我們都會注意好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢 觀眾請回座我們接下來休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時36分）謝謝主席，請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委好。主委，去年5月TAIDE發表之後，本席就持續地在關心TAIDE的相關議題，包括資料庫的更新，以及後續的推廣等等，去年7月，國科會跟中研院為持續投入旗艦級TAIDE研發，向輝達的AI超級電腦申請了算力的應用。想請教主委，旗艦級TAIDE跟之前發表的TAIDE有什麼不一樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：過去的TAIDE是我們國科會內部找學界專家來協助發展，它是一個示範性的作用，只有少量的經費，但是我接任以後就決定要把它擴散，所謂擴散就是我們要有更多研究人力進來。現在包含學界已經在徵案了，也跟更多學術研究專家……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以是延續之前的TAIDE，但是規模會更大、內容會更多元？"],["吳主任委員誠文：會更進步。中央研究院其實最近也有蠻好的進展，他們將來會公布他們研究的成果，我們也希望藉由國科會的產學合作，希望產業界也投入相關的研究，所以將來一定會發展得更順利。國網中心會建立一個平臺，這個平臺會讓新的、我們研究的成果，除了TAIDE之外，還有其他的模型陸續會掛上來。"],["陳委員秀寳：是。在外國許多AI都會推出app讓民眾方便使用，在高使用率的情況之下，它可以即時搜尋網頁並即時回應，很多使用者會習慣使用，他使用得很順手，他也會建立他慣用的模式，如此後續我們在TAIDE的推廣上就會有一點難度，因為民眾已經習慣使用這樣子的app。國科會有沒有計畫，讓我們的TAIDE能提供更具有臺灣相關文化的內容跟資料，將TAIDE打造成適合臺灣人使用的AI工具？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，委員的建議非常好，其實我正在提醒我們的國網中心，因為現在TAIDE的應用平臺建立在國網中心，我也希望國網中心能發展出讓民眾都可以使用到的TAIDE的應用，這部分我要求國網中心努力一定要在年底之前完成。"],["陳委員秀寳：都可以使用到，主要是它是要好用的、是順手的，所以我希望我們在建置TAIDE的時候，我們也要結合更多臺灣的文化特色，例如我們臺灣的慣用語、我們的臺語，有更多臺灣的元素，甚至我們的風俗習慣，讓民眾在使用的時候覺得這是符合我們使用的，而不是我們去遷就所使用的軟體，而是這個軟體適用於我們。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。國網中心張主任，你要不要保證一定要好用？"],["張主任朝亮：好，保證我們會把臺灣的元素放入這些語言模型裡面，讓大家覺得好用，然後又有臺灣味。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝您的保證。因為其實AI軟體是越用越好用，因為越多人使用，它才會是順手的，那也希望說……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，然後我們資料就會更多，對。"],["陳委員秀寳：有越多的民眾下載，有更多產業來運用它的時候，我們的TAIDE的效益會更大、更高，所以感謝您的保證，我也希望儘量加入更多臺灣人習慣的、會運用到的元素進去，讓我們的民眾會喜歡使用它、習慣去使用它。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。接下來我想請教主委，你們國科會有宣布說：為了補足人力的缺口會投入智慧型機器人的研發，包括像人型、四隻腳型、翅膀型等等，而且首先會以智慧醫療及餐飲旅宿業的應用為主，並計畫2年之內就會有產品可以進入市場應用。請教主委，目前有計畫優先研發哪一種類型的機器人可以最快的投入市場？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們現在臺灣面臨最嚴重人力短缺的部分，可能是在健康照護及旅宿餐飲的產業，這些產業的需求跟民眾的需求，會造成我們自己在製造端及在系統設計的供應端這邊產業投入的意願。我們如果沒有借助我們自己產業實力的話，我們要自己發展我們應用的產業是很困難的，因此我的策略就是要針對現在臺灣最嚴重的人力缺乏及民眾需求最高的產業會先發展，所以大概現在設定的目標是健康照護以及旅宿餐飲會先做，至於其他學術研究的部分，我們完全是開放的。"],["陳委員秀寳：關於智慧醫療及旅宿餐飲業這兩個方面，你們如何設計一個怎樣型態的機器人來符合應用？"],["吳主任委員誠文：服務型，都是服務型的。"],["陳委員秀寳：服務型的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：會跟人接觸的。"],["陳委員秀寳：那麼你們也有跟產業做溝通嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們有貼近他們的需求嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們在規劃過程當中，陸續有與學界及產業界做溝通，特別是產業界，可分為兩種，一種是科技供應端的產業，這是臺灣最強的，也就是我們的製造業；另外一種是科技需求端的產業，就是我們AI要應用到百工百業所有的……"],["陳委員秀寳：本席的意思就是你們研發這些機器人提供給我們這樣的產業來使用的時候，是要符合他們需求的方向。"],["吳主任委員誠文：要符合需求，這是最重要的，沒有錯。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，國科會也預計在國研院下設置機器人研究中心，將以研究人工智慧為主，請問機器人本體的部分是由工研院來進行研發嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：工研院跟國研院都會研發，國研院是要連結學界，工研院是要連結產業界。"],["陳委員秀寳：機器人研究中心的設置規劃是如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：規劃會……"],["陳委員秀寳：研究中心的設置，你們會怎麼做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會利用工研院南部的院區，就是南分院，它在臺南的六甲，在烏山頭水庫旁邊，它有既有的基地，所以我們就不必再花……"],["陳委員秀寳：本來就有個基地在那邊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：本來就有在那個地方，建立這個研究的團隊，跟產業界一起設計未來的產品，而在製造基地的部分，經濟部也有下來協助，經濟部現在正在規劃一座智慧機器人的產業園區。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，因為最近各個產業都發生人力荒，尤其是醫護最近也爆發很多出走潮，在本席的選區有很多傳統產業及不同類型的工業也都有人力荒。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：國科會這次機器人的研發，雖然你們是以智慧醫療及旅宿餐飲為主，但也希望陸續針對工業這方面來研發機器人，希望國科會跟經濟部這邊要多與產業溝通，因為傳產人力短缺的問題一直讓產業都非常煩惱、也很緊張，如果我們可以儘快地跟產業來了解，我們研發可以紓緩相關產業缺工壓力的機器人，這也是產業的福音。所以也希望你們說的兩年之內機器人就會進入市場應用，希望可以很快有好消息，而且得到好的回饋，我們來發展各種機器人來協助產業。","接下來我要請教主委，有關黃仁勳先生來臺演講的時候提到會跟國科會合作AI基礎設施，請教主委針對合作的內容，到目前你們有沒有討論及規劃出一個比較具體的範圍或是項目？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還沒有具體的項目，但是範圍大致了解，範圍就是輝達跟鴻海會合作建立非常大的資料中心，超級電腦的算力，他們宣布這個算力目的的名詞叫做「AI Factory」，就是AI的工廠，它這工廠不是指硬體製造，它是要把AI各種各樣應用的軟體要開發出來，讓各行各業都可以使用這個AI。","國科會跟他們合作主要是將來可能會推動智慧城市，各種各樣的應用，也結合學界力量跟產業界力量一起開發，來滿足未來應用的需求，這個需求也會搭配剛剛提到的機器人產業，因為將來要有硬體，還要有AI，就是我們要發展機器要使用的智慧，也就是大腦，這些相關的東西包含晶片、軟體；也包含控制的部分，就是小腦的部分；在中部特別特別強的就是控制的部分，在北部特別強就是晶片產業，跟南部的系統設計整合會結合在一起，所以我們整個臺灣都會一起發展相關產業。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。另外針對黃仁勳先生有發表對AI機器人的想法跟展望，其實國科會也發表了智慧機器人的計畫，科學園區也新增3,000公頃園區用地，這個部分是要為了布局配合機器人計畫，還是要用於跟輝達合作的AI基礎設施？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實這兩個都有需要。"],["陳委員秀寳：都有。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為這兩個都會用到半導體，非常先進的半導體，針對這個半導體，現在我們最強的就是臺灣的先進製程製造的半導體產業，它是台積電帶領整個供應鏈，在這個供應鏈裡，我們國產自有的比例也越來越重，所以我們現在對於未來產業的需求、對於我們國家經濟的發展及國家安全的保障等等都非常重要，我們希望把未來到2050年產業發展的需求先規劃起來，先期規劃的好處是我們可以有足夠的時間把我們的生態保育、把我們的社區文化的維持，都能夠在未來科學園區的發展當中……"],["陳委員秀寳：就是事先規劃了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：同時都把它納進來，可以減低民眾的疑慮。因為園區的開發是要讓大家生活更好，所以不是只有經濟面而已，而是要把文化的保持、生態的維持可以做得更好，這種新型態的園區開發，我們就用大範圍，但是低密度的開發模式，來發展未來的新的園區，希望民眾能夠了解。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主委，你們這邊考慮得很周詳。另外我要請教的是，因為現在在教育界，我們昨天也討論到這個問題，就是關於川普政府暫停學生簽證的面試，如果未來川普政府這種美國製造的思維，主委覺得未來美國政府會不會禁止美國人才外出？就是以後美國相關高科技人才將以留在美國為主，您覺得對臺灣或是對國際間會不會造成怎樣的影響？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我相信美國政府可能……有時候有一些個案，我沒有辦法評論，但是整體來講，美國是一個非常創新的國家，我相信這種個案其實不會是全面性的會發生。從美國的歷史上看起來，也是非常仰賴移民，各個年代的移民對美國的創新跟經濟發展都有非常大的貢獻。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，您的意思是應該不至於發生這樣的狀況。"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該不至於發生。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席要強調的是國際科技相關產業的局勢變化萬千，有時候一個想法、一句話、一個決定可能就會馬上顛覆我們原來合作相關的模式，我希望國科會作為主要支持基礎科研的部會，以及你們是引領整個科技發展方針的領頭羊，你們要隨時注意國際局勢的變化，必須可以隨時做出反應，我們要守護科技也要守護人才。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員提醒。對於我們自己在海外的留學生，我們都有機制，也會來協助他們，他們要轉學還是要回來，有好的機會可以讓他們發展，這個部分我們都會注意，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來休息5分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時54分）"],["主席：謝謝，我們繼續開會。","接下來我們有請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162086","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162086","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1972cac2438e37a791219069fb8f2289f0b07ac742f6d23201c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:19:54 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一定會簽約的好 那我們後續這個因為台灣現在這部分上有一個Tide AI雲這些計畫可不可以整合在一起"},{"start":117.473,"end":131.992,"text":"我們委員講的就是我們主權AI的部分包含我們自主的這個AI模型的規劃研究設計然後應用的部分這個我們現在從國科會"},{"start":135.441,"end":161.509,"text":"政府這邊的這個團隊開始我們擴散到我們的這個學界還有產業界有多個這個計畫我們在今年開始啟動那未來就不會只限定是台德我們希望說現在新的這個AI的這個模型設計的方法已經有大幅度的進步一直在進步當中不能只靠政府所以這一部分我們從國防中心開始建立平台鼓勵"},{"start":162.389,"end":178.711,"text":"我們包含中央研究院各個大學還有產業界都進來做這個研究你說還有產業界那後面我要講的是國防中心的16PF的超級電腦已經建好了南科沙倫也有資料中心準備啟用那這次輝達的AI超級電腦是不是也會放在這些地方"},{"start":180.015,"end":198.61,"text":"是給少數人用還是開放學界產業可以申請我們所有的資料中心不管它座落在哪裡都是全國全國學界都在使用那有部分我們也跟產業界在合作把我們的學界研究成果應用落地到我們的民間所以會放在哪裡"},{"start":200.829,"end":228.728,"text":"揮打這個他已經宣布了跟這個鴻海合作是在高雄高雄好那我想說還是要照顧到學界跟產業啦是那剛剛有問你就是會不會納入像泰德語言模型喔那醫療AI的國防應用我想方式很多種啦那很多可以參考但是我們就希望說能夠趁這個機會能夠各方的系統跟不管是醫療AI國防應用都能夠藉此機會透過揮打來大躍進"},{"start":230.229,"end":258.468,"text":"那這個部分上也希望說一定要盡可能的將台灣的一些資源投入到裡面以後一起升級啊是 這個方向的確是我們在進行的是沒有錯好 根據國科會在行政院的報告到2029年政府希望建置480PF的公共算力加上民間投資總算力要超過1200這個目標很大但我想問這一次跟輝達合作是不是也列進了我們AI建設的藍圖"},{"start":260.323,"end":286.176,"text":"我們現在正在修正我們的AI的算力建置的規劃所以將來把民間的投資算進來的話會遠大於我們原來的規劃原來的規劃是只有政府的部分而且現在在算力的建置因為AI的這個比重越來越高了所以現在這個算力的這個我們評估它的這個算力的這個"},{"start":290.429,"end":304.798,"text":"現在基本上從今年開始業界已經改變了是用這個耗電量耗能的這個算法那所以輝達跟鴻海他們宣布的未來在高雄"},{"start":305.919,"end":322.414,"text":"可能還會擴散到其他地方它分三期總共會有100MW所以它第一期20MW可能今年就會開始啟動那未來還有兩個階段都是各40MW這是他們宣布的"},{"start":322.694,"end":341.304,"text":"所以我們看到他這三期的計畫很龐大啦但是在整個政府的部分上國科會應該要負責協調像是其他經濟部教育部要怎麼對接這些算力的資源國科會可以來幫忙協助嗎是是 這沒問題的確也是我們正在協調當中因為經濟部跟教育部不可能比你還了解啊"},{"start":341.784,"end":364.906,"text":"所以我覺得你應該要去協助這個部分謝謝羅委員 這個是我們責無旁貸那我們國防中心也的確跟我們民間的業者也積極在進行台灣算力聯盟的這個工作對啊 甚至還有衛福部 國防部啊都會用到 他們都會用到國防部的一個運用嘛所以我說國科會在這樣子的一個部分上是佔有一個非常重要的一個關鍵點"},{"start":366.187,"end":387.749,"text":"不只是銜接我們民間的資源,更是要幫忙協助政府這邊的跨部會協助這部分我想予以重任,林哥你認同嗎?謝謝羅委員,我們會做這個事好,那接下來我要講就是說,現階段我們看到我們過去國科會推動的Tide AI語言啊繁中的語言模型啊,都是我們在AI領域的重要資產"},{"start":388.83,"end":416.581,"text":"但是未來這個輝達的合作案就像我剛剛一直在提到的會不會也幫忙支援TIDE的訓練工作這部分上當然我不是說重視TIDE而已就像你說的還有其他的可能性但是我們有沒有預算留一些給這些資源給TIDE II TIDE MEET尤其這些模型可能要政府支援要訓練的有沒有這個機制成果回饋國內的一個產業我想這都是我們應該要列入到探討裡面"},{"start":418.068,"end":440.055,"text":"對,我們將來如果是學界也在發展,我們業界也在發展,我們希望能夠透過這個產學的合作,讓我們民間在主權AI新模型的這個開發,能夠進步的更快,的確是按照委員的講法的方向在進行,這是沒有問題。"},{"start":441.275,"end":463.753,"text":"接下來要講的是說國科會我們要發展更多的AI雲也希望能夠幫助到中小企業接軌AI那之前我們就一直在講就是我們發展的AI雲跟中小企業要的會不會銜接上或者是不接地氣這個都是我們要注意的但是我目前還看不到清楚的使用機制未來算力要怎麼申請公開分配"},{"start":464.494,"end":490.811,"text":"有沒有辦法有沒有建立資源的管理平台像是提供申請紀錄成果追蹤確保政府花錢能夠有實質的效益這部分你怎麼看這部分當然我們一定要做就是說將來我們不管是資源學界資源業界我們都需要有一個公平公開的這個做法這個我們國管中心將來所以我希望能夠趕快研擬出來這些相關的機制就是這部分我想提醒你"},{"start":492.606,"end":515.948,"text":"這個沒問題我們國防中心正在發展這個平台那成熟的時候我們大概今年下半年會公佈這個做法我們這次這樣合作我要做最後的一個提醒不只是硬體的建制更關係到未來我們台灣的AI主導權我們要確保技術不會被外商壟斷資料還能夠掌握在台灣手上"},{"start":516.829,"end":545.894,"text":"主委針對你說的這個主權AI我覺得這個資料主權技術回饋在地人才的培育國科會一定要有初步的合作框架跟條件的設計這部分上你有準備嗎這個已經準備了我們講主權AI目的就是要自己建我們的算力包含政府跟民間都要建那把我們寶貴的資料留在台灣這是一個很重要的工作"},{"start":546.964,"end":563.63,"text":"國科會這幾年推動在跨領域的人才培育AI雲的運用人才的推升以及太的應用擴散等多項的人才相關計畫但從架構來看教育部的高教生跟產學攜手合作的計畫在目標跟訓練內容上高度重疊"},{"start":565.11,"end":591.2,"text":"國科會是否曾與教育部能夠建立常設的協調機制釐清資源分配的訓練職能盤點過去計畫的交集以及重複補助的對象以提升整體的效益我們有常設的溝通機制的確是有的那你有沒有發現這些有重複的沒有重複我跟委員報告那你覺得這個訓練內容有沒有高度重疊"},{"start":593.217,"end":610.466,"text":"不是高度重疊,他們一定要一樣百分之百重疊但是主政的範圍不一樣我們需要學校的人力將來要進到產業界進到社會去發揮所以教育部的教學一定要跟我們現在要推動的百工百業"},{"start":611.346,"end":635.935,"text":"所以你的意思是說在同一條軌道上要同一條軌道但是是不一樣的層級不一樣 就是好像交棒一樣可能是在校園內的人才培育然後到產業界的一個銜接就馬上可以應用 沒有錯好 那目前我們看到這些國科會主導的計畫合作對象人大多數集中在台青 交城 陽明 交大等頂階學校請問國科會是否統計過中南部的"},{"start":637.136,"end":640.969,"text":"這個院區啊或者是技職體系的學校來實質參與比例"},{"start":643.495,"end":670.253,"text":"我們的確我接任以後這是一個重點我們在這個研究型的大學我們當然鼓勵這些學者要做這個前瞻的研究幫我們開發主權AI的模型等等這些研究工作需要仰賴這個研究型的大學但是其他的大學我們要培養人才是要做各式各樣的應用能夠對社會上所有的AI需求不同的領域我們都要培養人才所以包含這個"},{"start":673.435,"end":692.069,"text":"所以中南部的技職體系跟大學你有參考哪幾所?全部大學只要願意做的我們現在都支持都支持?對好 那台中唯利啦 勤益科大 台中科大 嶺東都沒問題洪光我們都歡迎這些學校來申請 朝陽 對對亞洲"},{"start":694.711,"end":713.387,"text":"這部分我希望說以台中的部分能夠幫我們多關心是好不好當然你說的是全部啦我們全國都會關心全部都沒關係哪怕是新大或者是其他學校都沒關係我是希望說幫我們中南部的多照顧一下有這些學校提計畫我們現在都會非常的歡迎"},{"start":714.048,"end":743.373,"text":"好那以相關的基電整合製造智慧製造的一個專業這些校院區是否被納入培育基地或者是共學實驗場域這個也要等到他們提出申請嗎還是你們有計劃可以考慮推動的時候有一個AI應用的聯盟可以主動去跟他們聯繫呢這個只要提計劃執行單位願意組成這個聯盟我們其實都樂觀所以還是在這個部分上需要他們主動"},{"start":744.139,"end":766.257,"text":"是是是 因為這個學術自由 我不能逼哪一個學校做什麼事情可不可以幫我們把這些相關的計畫 或者是至少行個文告訴他們有這個機會 他們可以來申請 提醒他們其實好好 可以提醒 我們都是公開的我知道我知道 但有時候公開 畢竟網路上 你的網站不一定每個人看嘛沒有沒有 我們也都會發函到各校好 所以你確定你會發函"},{"start":767.097,"end":785.007,"text":"全部每個學校都會收到要提醒你喔 好不好那目前部分的Tide跟AI雲的課程開始導入到業界資源但多數我們的課綱仍由學界主導請問課程的計畫設計是否有制度化引入職人導向的架構由產業的協會龍頭的企業參與整個設計的機制主委"},{"start":790.872,"end":819.391,"text":"課程的部分是應該是教育部經濟部 勞動部都有啦這幾個部分其實都有 多聽聽產業啦是是是我剛剛就講了嘛就是說產業的協會龍頭的企業參與設計能夠將整個課綱或者是這些教學的課程能夠設計的更加符合學界跟產業界的一個平衡當然我沒有說一定要只聽某一方但是我覺得整個東西應該是滾動式修正"},{"start":820.451,"end":843.537,"text":"這個部分你可以認同嗎這個我認同那我那你可以幫忙一下嗎我知道我知道因為我也會協調各部會就是包含其實還不只還要衛福部因為我們希望培育成效的方面國科會可以建立具體的一個追蹤制度我想目前你有掌握捷訓學員一年三年後工作去向跟留台比例嗎你有追蹤嗎"},{"start":845.725,"end":869.918,"text":"這一部分是各部會要負擔,但是我可以請...那各部會有沒有追蹤?可以幫忙是未來可以把我們相關人才培育計畫來提醒各部會要去追蹤。好,趙偉不要一直看我,再給我一分鐘,拜託再給我一點時間,壓力很大。但我要講的就是,連我們畢業了,學校都會打電話問我們,我們的職場追蹤,那你的未來去向。"},{"start":870.748,"end":887.669,"text":"那國歌會在對於這些學員上的培育成效是不是應該要去好好的追蹤來了解一下 你要提醒各部會要幫忙追蹤 回歸資訊給你們那你們才可以了解這整個設計上是不是有變革啊是不是需要在滾動式修正你可不可以認同"},{"start":888.547,"end":907.559,"text":"我認同我們會提醒各部會所以你要去修正嘛好不好人才培育不是訓練完就結案建立整個縱向的人才資料庫結合學歷授訓就業研究資訊確保這些追蹤能力是否能夠投入國家科技的這個發展主軸這個是我們需要去研究的"},{"start":907.759,"end":929.846,"text":"地方中小企業反映他們很難參與國科會大型計畫國科會是否能夠建立在地產學對接機制協助培養對企業人才的一個需求以後媒合幫忙協助這樣子的一個培訓資源這個是我要提是 地方中小企業在地產學對接機制"},{"start":930.846,"end":957.439,"text":"國科會有產協合作計畫但是地方中小企業也有經濟部我知道你有這些計畫但是能不能夠接中小企業的更多廣泛的這些應用然後幫他們協助對接這是我們要探討我現在正在做這個事所以我也邀請希望你加大力度邀請經濟部中小企業署也進來了希望你加大力度商業發展署也進來了那我們看到同樣一個方向但我們希望有具體的成效讓我們知道謝謝委員"},{"start":961.432,"end":962.305,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷惟"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時20分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委好。主委，最近我們臺灣「仁來瘋」，怎麼說「仁來瘋」？那就是黃仁勳！黃仁勳回臺演講，還宣布輝達要在北士科設海外總部，全臺都在看他要不要帶著整條AI產業鏈回來跟臺灣合作，他也講得很清楚，會和台積電、鴻海以及國科會一起打造臺灣的第一臺AI電腦。我想請問主委，目前這個合作的進度如何？談到哪裡了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們只是有初步的討論過，依照他們發布這樣的訊息，後續細節還沒有談，後續會……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你是屬於被動嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：也不算啦，大家一起動啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：大家一起動，你認為國科會在這個部分是負責主導、投資還是技術協調？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會代表我們政府，也包含經濟部跟數發部，將來會跟產業界一起合作，因為我們要發展算力，光靠政府的資源是不夠的，將來的產業發展一定需要產業的投入，而且投入的幅度會比政府還要大很多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：會不會要先談一些合作意向書或是備忘錄的部分？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個在後續我們開始進行細部合作規劃的時候一定會有，未來一定會簽約的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。因為臺灣在這個部分有一個TAIDE、AI雲，這些計畫可不可以整合在一起？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員講的就是我們主權AI的部分，包含我們自主的AI模型的規劃、研究、設計及應用的部分，這個現在從國科會、政府這邊的團隊開始，我們擴散到學界、產業界，有多個計畫會在今年開始啟動，未來就不會只限定是TAIDE，現在新的AI模型設計方法已經有大幅度的進步，一直在進步當中，但不能只靠政府，所以這一部分，我們從國網中心開始建立平臺，鼓勵包含中央研究院在內的各個大學，還有產業界都進來做這個研究。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你說還有產業界……"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有產業界。"],["羅委員廷瑋：後面我要講是國網中心的16PF算力超級電腦已經建置好了，南科沙崙也有資料中心準備啟用，這次輝達的AI超級電腦是不是也會放在這些地方？是給少數人用，還是開放學界、產業界可以申請？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們所有的資料中心，不管坐落在哪裡，都是全國學界在使用，有部分我們也跟產業界合作，把我們學界的研究成果應用落地到民間。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以會放在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：輝達已經宣布了，跟鴻海合作的是在高雄。"],["羅委員廷瑋：高雄？好，我想還是要照顧到學界跟產業啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛有問你會不會納入像TAIDE語言模型、醫療AI、國防應用，我想方式很多種，很多可以參考，但是我們希望能夠趁這個機會，各方的系統，不管是醫療AI、國防應用，都能夠藉此機會透過輝達來大躍進，這個部分也希望一定要儘可能的將臺灣的一些資源投入到裡面以後一起升級。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這個方向的確是我們在進行的，沒有錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。根據國科會在行政院的報告，到2029年政府希望能建置完成480PF的公共AI算力，加上民間建置的算力，總算力要超過1,200PF。這個目標很大，但是我想問的是，這次跟輝達合作是不是也列進了我們AI建設的藍圖？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在修正AI算力建置的規劃，所以將來把民間的投資算進來的話，會遠大於我們原來的規劃，因為原來規劃是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：超過1200？"],["吳主任委員誠文：原來的規劃是只有政府的部分，而且現在在算力的建置，因為AI的比重越來越高了，所以現在的算力部分，我們評估算力的單位，基本上，從今年開始業界已經改變了，是用耗電量、耗能的算法，所以輝達跟鴻海他們宣布的，未來在高雄，可能還會擴散到其他地方，是分三期，總共會有100MW，第一期是20MW，可能今年就會開始啟動，未來還有還有兩個階段，都是各40MW，這是他們宣布的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們看到這三期的計畫很龐大啦，但是在整個政府的部分，國科會應該要負責協調，像是其他經濟部、教育部要怎麼對接這些算力的資源，國科會可以來幫忙協助嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這個沒問題，我們的確也正在協調當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為經濟部跟教育部不可能比你還了解啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，因為……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我覺得你應該要去協助這個部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝羅委員，這個我們責無旁貸，我們國網中心也的確跟民間業者積極在進行臺灣算力聯盟的工作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對啊，甚至還有衛福部、國防部啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：都會用到，他們都會用到。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛講的醫療AI嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，他們都用到。"],["羅委員廷瑋：國防部的一個運用嘛！所以我說國科會在這個部分上是占有一個非常重要的關鍵點，不只是銜接我們民間的資源，更是要幫忙協助政府，要做跨部會的協助，這部分我想予以重任，您可以認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝羅委員，我們會做這個事。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。接下來我要講的就是，現階段我們看到過去國科會推動的TAIDE、AI雲、繁中的語言模型，都是我們在AI領域的重要資產，但是未來輝達的合作案，就像我剛剛一直在提到的，會不會也幫忙支援TAIDE的訓練工作？當然，我不是只重視TAIDE而已，就像你說的，還有其他的可能性，但是我們有沒有預算，留一些資源給TAIDE-2、TAIDE MED，尤其這些模型可能需要政府資源、要訓練，有沒有這個機制成果回饋國內的產業，我想這都是我們應該要列入探討的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，將來如果是學界也在發展，業界也在發展，我們希望能夠透過產學的合作，讓我們民間在主權AI新模型的開發能夠進步的更快，的確是按照委員所講的方向在進行，這是沒有問題的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。接下來要講的是國科會要發展更多的AI雲，也希望能夠幫助到中小企業接軌AI。之前我們就一直在講，我們發展的AI雲跟中小企業需要的會不會無法銜接或者是不接地氣，這個都是我們要注意的，但是我目前還看不到清楚的使用機制，未來算力要怎麼申請？公開分配有沒有辦法？有沒有建立資源的管理平臺？像是提供申請紀錄、成果、追蹤，確保政府花錢能夠有實質的效益，這部分你怎麼看？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這部分當然我們一定要做，就是說，將來我們不管是支援學界、支援業界，我們都需要有一個公平、公開的作法，我們國網中心將來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我希望能夠趕快研擬出這些相關的機制嘛，這個部分是我想提醒你的，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個沒問題，我們國網中心正在發展這個平臺，成熟的時候，大概今年下半年會公布這個作法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，對於這一項合作，我要做最後的一個提醒，不只是硬體的建置，更關係到未來我們臺灣的AI主導權，我們要確保技術不會被外商壟斷，資料還能夠掌握在臺灣手上。主委，針對你說的主權AI，我覺得資料主權、技術回饋、在地人才的培育，國科會一定要有初步的合作框架跟條件的設計，這部分你有準備嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個已經準備了，我們講主權AI，目的就是要自己建置我們的算力，包含政府跟民間都要建置，把我們寶貴的資料留在臺灣，這是一個很重要的工作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：國科會這幾年推動跨領域的人才培育、AI雲的運用、人才的推升，以及TAIDE應用擴散等多項的人才相關計畫，但從架構來看，與教育部的高教深耕產學攜手合作計畫在目標跟訓練內容上高度重疊。主委，國科會是否能與教育部建立常設的協調機制，釐清資源分配的訓練職能，盤點過去計畫的交集以及重複補助的對象，以提升整體的效益？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有常設的溝通機制，的確是有的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你有沒有發現這些有重複的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有重複，我跟委員報告，教育部……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你覺得這個訓練內容有沒有高度重疊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是高度重疊，他們一定要一樣、百分之百重疊，但是主政的範圍不一樣，我們需要學校的人力，將來要進到產業界、進到社會去發揮……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然它是延續的嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以教育部的教學一定要跟我們現在要推動的百工百業運用……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你的意思是說，在同一條軌道上……"],["吳主任委員誠文：要同一條軌道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是是不一樣的層級。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不一樣，就是好像交棒一樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可能是在校園內的人才培育，然後到產業界的一個銜接。"],["吳主任委員誠文：就馬上可以運用，沒有錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。目前我們看到這些國科會主導的計畫，合作對象仍大多數集中在臺、清、交、成、陽明交大等頂尖學校，請問國科會是否統計過中南部的院校或是技職體系的學校實質參與的比例？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，的確我接任以後這是一個重點。在研究型的大學，我們當然鼓勵這些學者要做前瞻研究，幫我們開發主權AI的模型等等，這些研究工作需要仰賴研究型的大學。但是其他的大學，我們要培養的人才是要做各式各樣的應用，能夠對社會上所有不同領域的AI需求，我們都要培養人才，所以包含技職體系還有私立大學，現在國科會都在支持……"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。所以中南部的技職體系跟大學，你有參考哪幾所？可以跟我們講嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：全部的大學，只要願意做的，我們現在都支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都支持？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。以臺中為例，勤益科大、臺中科大、嶺東、弘光、朝陽、亞洲……"],["吳主任委員誠文：都沒問題，我們都歡迎這些學校來申請。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這部分，我希望說以臺中的部分，能夠幫我們多關心，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，沒問題，我們全國都會關心。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然你說的是全部，全部都沒關係，哪怕是興大或者是其他的學校，都沒關係，我是希望幫我們中南部的多照顧一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，這些學校提計畫，我們現在都會非常的歡迎。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。那以相關的機電整合智慧製造的專業，這些校院區是否被納入培育基地，或者是共學實驗場域，這個也要等到他們提出申請嗎？還是你們有計畫，可以考慮推動的時候有一個AI應用聯盟，可以主動去跟他們聯繫呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個只要提計畫執行單位願意組成這個聯盟，我們其實都樂觀其成。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以在這個部分，還是需要他們主動？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，因為要尊重學術自由，我不能逼哪一個學校做什麼事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但可不可以幫我們把這些相關的計畫，或者至少行個文，告訴他們有這個機會，提醒他們可以來申請？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，可以提醒，我們都是公開的，而且……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道、我知道，但有時候公開在網路上，畢竟你的網站不一定每個人都會看嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有、沒有，我們也都會發函到各校。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，所以你確定你會發函？"],["吳主任委員誠文：全部每個學校都會收到。"],["羅委員廷瑋：要提醒你喔，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前部分TAIDE跟AI雲的課程，開始導入業界資源，但多數我們的課綱仍由學界主導，請問課程的計畫設計是否有制度化引入職能導向的架構，由產業協會、龍頭企業參與整個設計的機制？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：課程的部分應該是教育部、經濟部、勞動部都有，這幾個部會其實都有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對啦，多聽聽產業界的聲音啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛就講了嘛，就是讓產業協會、龍頭企業參與設計，能夠將整個課綱或是教學的課程設計得更加符合學界跟產業界的一個平衡……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，這個部分……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我們沒有說一定要只聽某一方，但是我覺得整個計畫應該要滾動式修正，這個部分你可以認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我認同，那我……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你可以幫忙一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我知道，因為我也會協調各部會，就是包含……其實還不止，還有衛福部啦！勞動部、經濟部……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們希望在培育成效方面，國科會可以建立一個具體的追蹤制度，目前你有掌握結訓學員一年、三年後的工作去向跟留臺比例嗎？你有追蹤嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分是各部會要負擔，但是我可以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：各部會有沒有追蹤，有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們科技辦公室未來可以把相關的人才培育計畫提醒各部會要去追蹤。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。召委，不要一直看我，再給我1分鐘，拜託再給我一點時間，壓力很大。","但我要講的就是，連我們畢業了，學校都會打電話問我們，追蹤我們的職場和未來的去向，國科會對於這些學員的培育成效，是不是應該要好好的追蹤、了解一下……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會提醒……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你要提醒各部會幫忙追蹤，回饋資訊給你們，那你們才可以了解整個設計上是不是需要有所變革，是不是需要再滾動式修正。你可不可以認同？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。我認同，我們會提醒各部會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你要去修正嘛，好不好？人才培育不是訓練完就結案了，建立整個縱向的人才資料庫，結合學歷、受訓、就業、研究資訊，追蹤確保這些人力是否能夠投入國家科技的發展主軸，這是我們需要去研究的。地方中小企業反映，他們很難參與國科會的大型計畫，國科會是否能夠建立在地產學對接機制，了解企業需求的人才以後，也幫忙媒合協助這樣的培訓資源，這是我最後要提的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，地方中小企業的確……"],["羅委員廷瑋：在地產學對接機制。"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會有產學合作計畫，但是地方中小企業也有經濟部在輔助的計畫……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道你有這些計畫，但是能不能構接中小企業更多廣泛的應用，然後幫他們協助對接，這是我們要探討的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我現在正在做這個事，所以我也邀請……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，希望你加大力度。"],["吳主任委員誠文：邀請經濟部中小企業署進來了……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，希望你加大力度。"],["吳主任委員誠文：商業發展署也進來了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們看到同樣一個方向，但我們希望有具體成效讓我們知道，好不好？拜託一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來我們有請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1334d10e991e70ed9fa28f537c7c679770b07ac742f6d2320bb574d15a1fc2d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:19:09 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但"},{"start":173.829,"end":189.58,"text":"調查起來還是剛剛主委講完最終確定還是要等到明年了啦所以換言之都超過半年以上那特別是國人對於這個問題包括交通部都引來社會的討論就是到底年紀是不是關鍵"},{"start":191.052,"end":206.12,"text":"很多不是前輩啦 長輩都還來打電話給我說他覺得他很健康他覺得他開車沒有問題他的反應比年輕人還要好那其實個案我沒辦法表示什麼"},{"start":207.106,"end":232.947,"text":"個案我沒辦法表示,老人家也有身體,年輕人也不表示每一個年輕人都身心反應都很快嘛這個很難用年紀絕對來區分,但年紀他一定程度人老化他一定反應速度平均值上面一定比較相對弱一點,這個大概無庸置疑那到底它是什麼那這裡面會涉及到交通部怎麼來定義,也讓很多的老人家他覺得他受到歧視"},{"start":234.093,"end":253.177,"text":"他覺得用年紀來歧視他是不合理的所以這裡面的關鍵我也不知道所以我也無法回答 我就在等運安會的一個結果好 那所以主委我看了一下像日本在2019年在時代也發生過類似老人家的車禍開車造成的慘劇所以日本在2022年他就強制要新車裝上"},{"start":262.265,"end":287.332,"text":"這個所謂的黑盒子啦其實也就是這個EDR那台灣呢到目前為止我們是大客車跟大貨車有裝這個EDR那運安會會不會建議交通部或者相關部會對於未來的新車就是我們的自小客車啦要加裝EDR"},{"start":293.245,"end":297.393,"text":"我們的調查重點裡面有一些屬於車輛機械跟設備檢測的這個分組"},{"start":301.553,"end":328.907,"text":"那我相信我們調查出來的這個結果會跟交通部會有交集啦會有交集那像這次三峽車或者這個舊的這個TOYOTA那個車齁照道理來講它是舊車它應該是沒有EDR啦就所謂新車現在也沒有 但是它現在有那個特斯拉有EDR之外 其他也沒有它這部車剛好有EDR喔 剛好有 OK所以我們現在是在解讀好 那會不會"},{"start":329.887,"end":347.632,"text":"未來在你們的建議當中方便你們的調查你們會不會建議交通部說未來新車啊就以後在台灣賣的車輛都必須把EDR作為一個標準配備運營會有沒有這樣的想法我這邊的資料是台灣在116年"},{"start":350.479,"end":364.766,"text":"現在114嘛 116年就規定都要裝新型的這個EDR對 就是已經116年開始的新車都要裝了對就是這樣子嘛那它不管什麼樣的車型都要裝"},{"start":366.394,"end":383.28,"text":"大大小小的車子啦載貨載人的都要裝嘛對不對那這個是運安會給的建議嗎不是這是交通部的政策好那運安會如果有這樣的EDR對運安會的運作來講譬如說以路上的車禍而言你們的時間可不可以再縮短"},{"start":384.736,"end":406.837,"text":"對我們的調查當然幫助很大幫助很大嗎對很大所以主委你也不反對嗎我贊成你贊成OK好所以簡單講就是說我提這個其實對我來講我並不了解它的成本就是說裝了之後對消費者他的購買新車他要增加多少成本但是我相信對於事故的調查會有幫助"},{"start":407.518,"end":436.661,"text":"那大家會期待過去我們在講說叫你們增加人力啊等等這個問題我覺得都很困難啦講再講講再講其實都效果有限所以我們應該反過來再想其他透過其他的路徑有沒有辦法再讓你們的調查報告可以速度更快可以更精準這個才是第二條除了叫你們增加人力啊增加效率啊之外還有什麼外部輔助的方式"},{"start":437.771,"end":457.95,"text":"這個是本席今天質詢的重點我們的調查品質就會更好啦所以我的意思還是期待啦因為政策的前端就是運安會啦特別像這個事件過後到底政策要怎麼調整法規要不要修改其實前端在你們"},{"start":458.88,"end":480.055,"text":"我覺得這樣也比較科學啦不然老人家會覺得他受到歧視嘛但如果真的怎麼樣的老人家的有些老人家是健康的身心反應都沒有問題但有一些可能不行那這個時候該怎麼去做調整以確保大家的安全這個其實也是很重要的所以不用年紀去歧視老人家但"},{"start":481.016,"end":509.768,"text":"國人的在行的路上的安全像這一次這種讓人家這麼難過的事情我們不希望它再發生所以怎麼樣很精準的把我們想要改變的問題把它集中要害的處理而不要盡量不要去誤傷那個無辜啦我覺得這個是最重要我們的立場也是這樣子啦完整的調查真正對症下藥啦對對對因為要對症下藥啦不然的話每一個政策出來都讓一堆無辜的人也不對"},{"start":510.228,"end":515.22,"text":"那你不處理也不對因為我們不希望看到這種那麼讓人難過的事情再發生"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請林主任委員。"],["主席：好，運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。三峽的車禍從發生到今天，我想立法院很多委員不分朝野都很關心，社會大眾、國人對這個案子的發生到底是什麼樣的原因，也都充滿著關心、猜測。主委，現在的調查狀況大概進行到哪裡？"],["林主任委員信得：大概一個月內會有初報出來，10月份會有一個事實資料報告出來，預計明年1月調查報告草案就會出來，然後明年5月會在委員會審查通過。我們動員4個分組，大概有15個人力，我希望能夠縮短期程，這是我的期望。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，大家都期待嘛，我看徐富癸委員也是一樣，大家都期待你能夠縮短期程。大家為什麼會著急？其實它最關鍵的是，事故發生的原因會涉及未來在交通部也好，或者其他相關部會也好，在許多政策的擬定上，會以事故最終的原因做報告、做調查。一個車禍的發生，它有可能是機械問題，也有可能是人為問題。在人為問題裡面，因為大家知道他是一個有年紀的先生，年紀是不是影響駕駛安全的關鍵，或者跟年紀無關？年輕人也可能會發生這樣駕駛上的疏忽。換言之，從環境因素、機械因素到人為因素，人為因素又分年紀，或者其他的原因，它都可能是這個嚴重車禍很重要的原因，是大家必須要去釐清的，也只有釐清了問題，我們在法規跟政策上才可以隨之而走，所以運安會會是走在最前端的角色，這也就是為什麼國人同胞跟立法院的委員都要求運安會速度要快，調查要明確，原因在這裡。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道每一次都是老問題，比如包括運安會人力不足，運安會為求慎重，所以即使車禍的調查比起空中的、海上的，都相對來得容易一點，但調查起來，就剛剛主委講的，最終確定還是要等到明年，換言之，都超過半年以上。特別是國人對於這個問題，包括交通部，都引來社會的討論，就是到底年紀是不是關鍵？很多前輩、長輩都還打電話給我，說他覺得他很健康，他覺得他開車沒有問題，他的反應比年輕人還要好。其實個案我沒辦法表示什麼，老人家也有身體好的，年輕人也不是每一個身心反應都很快，這個很難用年紀絕對區分，但一定程度上人的年紀老化，它的反應速度在平均值上面一定相對比較弱一點，這個大概無庸置疑，到底那是什麼？這裡面會涉及到交通部怎麼定義，讓很多老人家覺得他受到歧視，覺得用年紀歧視他是不合理的，這裡面的關鍵我也不知道、我也無法回答，所以我就在等運安會的一個結果。","主委，我看了一下，2019年日本池袋也發生過類似老人家的車禍，開車造成了慘劇，所以日本在2022年就強制新車裝上所謂的黑盒子，也就是EDR，而臺灣到目前為止，我們是大客車跟大貨車有裝EDR。運安會會不會建議交通部或者相關部會，對於未來的新車就是我們的自小客車要加裝EDR？"],["林主任委員信得：我們的調查重點裡面有一些屬於車輛機械跟設備檢測的分組，我相信我們調查出來的結果跟交通部會有交集。像這一次三峽車禍舊的Toyota那輛車，照道理講它是舊車，應該是沒有EDR，就是所謂的……"],["蔡委員其昌：新車現在也沒有，除了特斯拉有EDR之外，其他也沒有。"],["林主任委員信得：這部車剛好有EDR。"],["蔡委員其昌：剛好有？OK。"],["林主任委員信得：所以我們現在在解讀。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，未來在你們的建議當中，為了方便你們的調查，你們會不會建議交通部，未來新車就是以後在臺灣賣的車輛都必須把EDR作為一個標準配備？運安會有沒有這樣的想法？"],["林主任委員信得：我這邊的資料是臺灣將在116年開始，現在是114年，116年就規定都要裝新型的EDR。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，116年開始新車都要裝了，就是這樣。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：不管是什麼樣的車型……"],["林主任委員信得：都要裝。"],["蔡委員其昌：大大小小的車子、載貨、載人的都要裝，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個是運安會給的建議嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：不是，這是交通部的政策。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，如果有這樣的EDR，對運安會的運作來講，譬如說以路上的車禍而言，你們的時間可不可以再縮短？"],["林主任委員信得：對我們的調查當然幫助很大。"],["蔡委員其昌：幫助很大嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：對，很大。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以主委也不反對？"],["林主任委員信得：我贊成。"],["蔡委員其昌：你贊成？OK、好，所以簡單講，我提這個EDR，其實對我來講，我並不了解它的成本，就是裝了之後對消費者購買新車會增加多少成本，但是我相信對於事故的調查會有幫助，大家會期待。過去我們在說叫你們增加人力等等，這個問題我覺得都很困難，講再講、講再講，其實效果有限，所以我們應該反過來再想，透過其他路徑有沒有辦法再讓你們的調查報告速度更快、可以更精準，這個才是第二條，除了叫你們增加人力、增加效率之外，還有什麼外部輔助的方式，這是本席今天質詢的重點。"],["林主任委員信得：我們的調查品質就會更好了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對，所以我的意思還是期待啦，因為政策的前端就是運安會，特別像這個事件過後，到底政策要怎麼調整？法規要不要修改？其實前端在你們，我覺得這樣也比較科學，不然老人家會覺得他受到歧視，但如果真的怎麼樣老人家……有些老人家是健康的，身心反應都沒有問題，但有一些可能不行，這個時候該怎麼調整以確保大家的安全？這個其實也是很重要的。"],["林主任委員信得：是、是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以不要用年紀去歧視老人家。國人在行的路上的安全，像這一次這種讓人家這麼難過的事情，我們不希望它再發生，所以怎麼樣很精準的把我們想要改變的問題，把它擊中要害的處理，儘量不要去誤傷無辜，我覺得這個是最重要的。"],["林主任委員信得：我們的立場也是這樣，完整的調查、真正對症下藥。"],["蔡委員其昌：對！要對症下藥，不然每一個政策出來都影響到一堆無辜的人，這也不對；你不處理也不對，因為我們不希望看到那麼讓人難過的事情再次發生，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長，休息10分鐘。","休息（10時27分）","繼續開會（10時37分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","現在請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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主委我想這個我們最近也一直看到包含我們的這個很多的現在這個都會區包含我們這個很多的重要的一個鄉鎮我們的標誌標線甚至這個燈號都在做一些調整改善那我想我們都是為了行人安全"},{"start":68.365,"end":85.211,"text":"那我想三峽這個事故一樣,它那個標誌標証也有要清澈啊啊為什麼還有發生這樣的一個狀況難道這個必須還要花一年的時間才能夠調查,不可以有一個初步的一個結果趕快讓交通部做一個後續改革的一個參考嘛,不可以加快時程"},{"start":86.621,"end":109.661,"text":"加快施整就是我報告過了我們會我們現在動員15個人立在調查這個案子我們會想辦法把它縮短它自己縮短到一個月或多久我還不知道因為要看過程中我們都清楚因為我們現在你們的職責裡面當然我們是必須要把問題理清楚那你們現在手邊的案子也這麼多我剛剛聽到你們動員了15個人在處理這個案對不對對"},{"start":114.105,"end":131.079,"text":"好 我也擔心你們先15個人調來處理這個案子之後把過去累積的案子再放在一邊針對這些水路 公路 航空的事件調查結果是不是又要拖延很久會不會又造成一個惡劑循環會排擠 會排擠這排擠你要改過 人家不只說排擠而已我們現在說的這個案子差不多大家都在加班"},{"start":137.375,"end":158.613,"text":"是啦 所以我們也是希望不能因為這樣 要創一間創到這麼久 其他又崩壞這樣未來你這些政策的調整是要怎麼跟得上我們的腳步可以做的條件不然這一年保庇都沒得出水果 沒法情恰好 這邏輯很奇怪我們其他組我們會貪心凋肚 人力不支援啦"},{"start":159.214,"end":166.529,"text":"我們希望不要這樣子的 這樣的內部的一個調整造成我們過去的一個調查機制的一個延宕 我覺得這是不對的一個方向啦"},{"start":169.346,"end":170.867,"text":"現在這個都上網在對外招考"},{"start":199.486,"end":212.122,"text":"都在民謠中沒有做這個坦白講我們也不可以隨便說阿媽阿狗都不可以我們一些專業事實上他有來到後來我們像我們有一組人進來的時候後來經過委員去討論說好像"},{"start":215.806,"end":235.351,"text":"比較沒什麼苛刻後來又重新對我來講所以當然我們一定要找專業的人來做處理啦我們謹慎用專業的人啦但是你沒找人你就不知道要做事情啦這我們也是很緊的請神容易送神難啦就很累啦就還是還是還是要謹慎啦你都叫你沒信心你找人你都沒信心有啦有啦有啦這也很奇怪的邏輯啊對"},{"start":238.837,"end":252.518,"text":"所以我想這個我們都很願意剛剛包含我們很多委員都很願意支持我們運營會的預算我們也希望補足你們的人力但是相對性你們要把你們的工作表現績效呈現出來這對國人比較有交代"},{"start":255.602,"end":278.727,"text":"我們的成效確實是很多我想我事後可以把一些我們過去譬如說去年前年的我跟委員報告只是我們可能利於表達沒有讓人家覺得說主委我們不要漂亮的報告我們要實務的作為啦好不好這真的是對我們整個運輸交通事故最重要的一個關鍵啦是是是你報告什麼"},{"start":279.927,"end":300.11,"text":"現在這麼漂亮,Paper這樣漂亮有什麼用?數據就不改善了,這有什麼用?這很矛盾的啦主委你有信心嗎?沒有啦,沒有信心啦,因為我們調查出來的結果各主管機關,他們比較積極,我們就比較有成就感啦"},{"start":301.977,"end":319.624,"text":"啊你這樣 我覺得這又是道國的原因啊你不趕快撥出來 讓這個業務單位可以做改善 它是怎麼辦我們有些調查案 調查期間我們說會不會通告好 你想你這樣 這三峽事故一年後我想今天又發生一個 看了一個新聞一個九十幾歲的伯伯"},{"start":321.044,"end":339.395,"text":"人要走車就這樣 沒辦法走車還要人家插 這是要怎麼開車類似這種事件我們都很擔心 但是你們現在針對交通部未來的政策你們今天不可以先給一個方向 先給一個調查的一個結果我覺得這是大家要相輔相成最後來處理努力的一個結果啦我們會加速這個調查的期程"},{"start":342.859,"end":358.317,"text":"所以我想我們去年 醫院會提出了99個改善的建議分別是這個水路有55項這個鐵路有19項跟公路21項水路佔了將近很大的一個比例那尤其這個"},{"start":359.358,"end":385.009,"text":"因為立案調查的有162件的漁船的重大的水路事故我想我來組這個檳榔我們有很多的一個漁船的一個業者大家都希望可以平安但是這樣的一個事故發生之外依你們現在目前的調查狀況到底需要改善的部會是農業部、交通部還是勞動部這跟我解明確的答案"},{"start":385.999,"end":411.096,"text":"目前最需要改善水路的應該是交通部 航港局他的案子最多原因是 什麼 原因出在哪裡原因就是他飲水人的作業的問題 飲水人的法規 飲水人辦事處的問題最大對 找出問題之後 現在怎麼解決現在他局長也很積極 他們成立一個專案小組 每個月都在開會包括法規的修訂 包括執行面的問題等等"},{"start":411.837,"end":419.651,"text":"什麼時候會有一個具體的改善結果這個應該今年內會有很重大的一個進展因為他開會都有請我們過去練習跟他們討論"},{"start":425.189,"end":445.534,"text":"主委我還是要提醒依我們調閱到資料目前改善的這個完成率來看水路事故這兩年的改善完成率都是最低的那漁業也是我們很重要的一個產業我想這個漁運會走入旁袋怎麼樣強化我們這個水路跟漁船主委的安全主委可不可以再加快時程對謝謝"},{"start":448.902,"end":472.974,"text":"好那另外我想我們這個我最近也一直針對我們小琉球跟坤町我們這個海域因為我們有很多潛水的一個遊客那我們發現了這個潛水的那個區域劃分跟所謂的一個漁船的這個航道頂尿不蓋潛測造成潛水客在這個航道裡面浮潛被漁船撞到這屬狗這隻狗"},{"start":474.996,"end":484.363,"text":"我想運營會也應該要來積極協調 相關部會 請你們做一個有效的釐清這該當是行政部門應該要怎麼去規範這樣的一個 禁止一個潛水的行為"},{"start":485.706,"end":512.603,"text":"這後壁湖這個外海潛水客被漁船羅先生講打傷是這個案子是個案啦那我們有跟航港局那邊有跟他們聯絡說這個案子你們要去調查因為就如同委員講你們這個區域方面好像不清楚啦所以我們還是要希望趕快來做調查啊對啊我們有跟他們講這個案子雖然雖然我們沒有調查但是我們之前有跟他們聯繫過對不只後壁湖喔連小琉球都有發生這種狀況小琉球也是喔是啊這很危險的是"},{"start":515.492,"end":522.257,"text":"主委我想這樣我們再積極來處理好不好是是我也來開一個合表會我們來一起來共同來協調這個案子是謝謝委員指導好謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":281,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早。主委，我剛剛聽了前面幾位委員針對三峽事故的詢問，我聽到主委的答案覺得很遺憾。主委，一個這樣的案子竟然要調查一年才會出爐，而交通部部長隔天就已經宣布一些新的政策，甚至下個月這些政策就要陸續上路，但是萬一你們調查的結果跟交通部推出的改革政策不一樣的時候要怎麼辦？會不會有這樣的矛盾問題？"],["林主任委員信得：應該不會。"],["徐委員富癸：不會？"],["林主任委員信得：不會。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我們最近也一直看到很多的都會區，包含很多重要鄉鎮的標誌、標線甚至燈號都在做一些調整改善，我們都是為了行人安全。我想三峽這個事故也一樣，它的標誌、標線也是畫得很清楚，為什麼還會發生這樣的一個狀況？難道這個必須還要花一年的時間才能夠調查？不能有一個初步的結果，趕快讓交通部做後續改革的一個參考嗎？不能加快時程嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：關於加快時程的部分，我剛才報告過了，我們現在動員15個人力在調查這個案子，會想辦法把它縮短，至於縮短到一個月或多久我還不知道，因為要看過程中的……"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我們都清楚，現在你們的職責裡面，當然我們必須要把問題釐清楚，你們現在手邊的案子也很多，我剛剛聽到你們動員15個人在處理這個案子，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["徐委員富癸：我也擔心你們現在調15個人來處理這個案子之後，可能把過去累積的案子再放在旁邊，針對這些水路、公路、航空事件的調查結果是不是又要拖延很久？會不會又造成一個惡性循環？"],["林主任委員信得：會排擠。"],["徐委員富癸：若會排擠，你要解決啊！不是只有說會排擠而已。"],["林主任委員信得：我們現在處理這個案子的人差不多都在加班。"],["徐委員富癸：是啦！我們也是希望不能因為這樣……你們要做一件都做這麼久，其他又放著，未來這些政策是要怎麼跟得上我們的腳步可以調整？不就要保佑這一年都不要再出事故、沒有發生車禍？這個邏輯很奇怪啊！"],["林主任委員信得：其他組我們會彈性調度人力去支援。"],["徐委員富癸：我們希望不要因為這樣子內部的調整，造成過去調查機制的延宕，我覺得這是不對的方向。主委，當然我知道，我下一個問題就要詢問，去年我也詢問過，我知道你們目前的編制員額是92位，但實際上現員是84位，欠8個人嘛。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["徐委員富癸：目前公路調查跟運輸安全的部分各缺了2個人，我想這都是很重要的工作職掌。主委，這部分你們有積極做員額的處理嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：現在這個都上網在對外招考，都在遴補中沒有錯，坦白講，我們也不可以隨便讓阿貓、阿狗都進來，也不行啊！我們一些專業，事實上，像我們有一組人進來，後來經過委員討論，好像不太可靠，所以後來又重新對外招考。我們很謹慎啦！"],["徐委員富癸：當然，你們一定要找專業的人處理。"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們很謹慎，要用專業的人啦！"],["徐委員富癸：但是你沒找到人，你就沒辦法做事情，這件事我們也是很急。"],["林主任委員信得：請神容易，送神難，到時就很累了！還是要謹慎。"],["徐委員富癸：你都這麼沒信心，你找人都沒信心。"],["林主任委員信得：有啦，有信心！"],["徐委員富癸：這也是很奇怪的邏輯。主委，我們都很願意，包含很多委員都很願意支持運安會的預算，我們也希望能夠補足你們的人力，但是相對地你們也要把工作表現、績效呈現出來，這樣才能對國人有交代。"],["林主任委員信得：我們的成效確實是很弱，我想我事後可以把一些我們過去，譬如去年、前年的資料跟委員報告，只是我們可能吝於表達，讓人家覺得……"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我們不要漂亮的報告，我們要實務的作為，好不好？這才真的是對我們整個運輸、交通事故最重要的一個關鍵。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["徐委員富癸：你報告寫得這麼漂亮，paper做得這麼漂亮，有什麼用？事故沒改善，這有什麼用？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這很矛盾啦！主委，你有信心嗎？我都怕你沒信心。"],["林主任委員信得：有信心啦！因為我們調查出來的結果，各主管機關如果比較積極，我們就比較有成就感。"],["徐委員富癸：你這樣讓我覺得倒果為因，你們報告不趕快出來，讓這些業務單位可以改善，他們是要怎麼辦？"],["林主任委員信得：我們有些調查案在調查期間有時候會發通告。"],["徐委員富癸：好，像你這樣，這個三峽事故一年之後……今天我看到一個新聞，一個九十幾歲的阿伯連要上車都沒辦法上車，還要人家扶他，這是要怎麼開車？類似這種事件我們都很擔心，但是你們現在針對交通部未來的政策，難道不能趕快給一個方向，趕快給調查結果嗎？我覺得這是大家要相輔相成一起處理、努力的。"],["林主任委員信得：我們會加速這個調查的期程。"],["徐委員富癸：好，主委，去年運安會提出了99個改善的建議，分別是水路55項、鐵路19項跟公路21項，水路占了很大的比例，尤其運安會立案調查的，漁船重大水路事故有162件。我來自屏南，我們有很多的漁船業者，大家都希望可以平安，但是這樣的一個事故發生，主委，依你們目前的調查狀況，到底需要改善的部會是農業部、交通部，還是勞動部？這有沒有明確的答案？"],["林主任委員信得：目前最需要改善水路的，應該是交通部航港局，它的案子最多。"],["徐委員富癸：原因是什麼？原因出在哪裡？"],["林主任委員信得：原因就是它引水人作業的問題，引水人的法規、引水人辦事處的問題，它問題最大。"],["徐委員富癸：對，找出問題之後，現在怎麼解決？"],["林主任委員信得：現在局長也很積極，他們成立一個專案小組，每個月都在開會，包括法規的修訂、執行面的問題等等。"],["徐委員富癸：什麼時候會有具體的改善結果？"],["林主任委員信得：應該今年內會有很重大的進展。"],["徐委員富癸：今年內？"],["林主任委員信得：對，因為它開會都有請我們列席跟他們討論。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我還是要提醒，依我們調閱到的資料，以目前改善的完成率來看，水路事故這兩年的改善完成率都是最低的。漁業也是我們很重要的產業，我想運安會責無旁貸，關於怎麼樣強化我們水路跟漁船作業的安全，主委，可不可以再加快時程？"],["林主任委員信得：對，謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我最近也一直針對小琉球跟墾丁海域……因為我們有很多潛水的遊客，我們發現潛水的區域劃分，跟所謂的漁船航道訂得不太清楚，造成潛水客在航道裡面浮潛被漁船撞到。這個事故的責任，我想運安會也應該積極協調相關部會做有效的釐清。這個航道的部分應該要怎麼去規範、禁止潛水的行為？"],["林主任委員信得：後壁湖外海的潛水客被漁船螺旋槳打傷，這個案子是個案，我們有跟航港局聯絡，請他們去調查這個案子，因為就如同委員講的，這個區域劃分好像不清楚。"],["徐委員富癸：對，所以我們希望要趕快調整啊！"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們有跟他們講。"],["徐委員富癸：因為不只……"],["林主任委員信得：這個案子雖然我們沒有調查，但是我們有資料，也有跟他們聯繫。"],["徐委員富癸：不只後壁湖，連小琉球都有發生這種狀況。"],["林主任委員信得：小琉球也是喔？"],["徐委員富癸：是啊，這很危險欸！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我想這個我們再積極來處理，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：好。"],["徐委員富癸：我也會開一個協調會，我們一起來共同協調這個案子。"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員的質詢。","現在請蔡其昌副院長質詢，蔡其昌副院長質詢完，休息10分鐘，請副院長。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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讓你當參考啦"},{"start":244.215,"end":270.873,"text":"就是說換照的制度換照的制度台灣現在是75歲以後然後呢新加坡韓國是65歲以後日本美國是70歲以後英國是年滿70歲自動失效那法國是15年體檢一次那從安全價值的角度來看"},{"start":272.352,"end":297.347,"text":"這個換照的年齡不能說只針對老人也不要讓老人誤解一個長輩發生車禍我們所有的長輩要受害不是這樣而是就是說我從安全駕駛的角度來看我應該是多久或者是幾歲或者是重大傷病有一個不一樣的安全駕駛的"},{"start":299.464,"end":321.517,"text":"觀念去針對這個換照制度做一個調整不是只是針對老人我強調一次而是強調的是安全駕駛人家90歲了你個畫面機能很好像我們看到那個市莊醫那一百零幾歲了還能夠打羽毛球對不對人家身體好"},{"start":322.54,"end":349.435,"text":"各項健康檢查都通過他要繼續開車那當然就符合標準就可以開啊所以不是年紀的問題啊那這個部分應安會可有想法連你的問題當然跟委員講的我想一樣啦我是說作為不是真正的意願我說應安會可有作為啦對我們的作為是這樣我們事實上對事務我們是"},{"start":351.896,"end":371.761,"text":"調查然後我們對這個下要嗎那如果對這個下要找出來的原因如果跟交通部的一些就剛剛講高齡然後認識安全駕駛有關係我們會跟他連結啦對我的意思就是說因為時間差不多了重點我是我一直期盼雲南會主動出擊啦事故當然是被動出擊嘛但是"},{"start":373.066,"end":386.798,"text":"掌握事故根本原因潛在風險提出改善建立這個應該是主動出擊是是是好不好是我們之後會把一些資料給委員報告好好這個部分希望雲南會可以加強好是好好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":253,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時3分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：主委好。主委，我想很多委員都有問到三峽78歲駕駛造成3死的重大車禍，你們要調查一年？要這麼久嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：報告委員，麻雀雖小五臟俱全，一定的程序就一定要走，而且不是說可以……因為這種專業調查的東西一定要有科學的依據，一定要有一定的……"],["許委員智傑：對啦！我是覺得運安會這樣子的態度比較不積極，該有的程序當然我們會認為要做沒有錯，該做的科學鑑定當然我們也沒有叫你們要少，但是在一般民眾看起來，這個事情要一年？你們應該可以加快速度吧？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上我有召開一個內部的會，跟他們說可不可以再縮短？就跟委員所關切的一樣，我們在明年的1、2月草案就應該要出來了。"],["許委員智傑：是啊！"],["林主任委員信得：但是我們還要經過委員會的程序。"],["許委員智傑：我是這樣建議啦！你看你們運安會的職掌為：發掘事故根本原因及潛在風險，並提出改善建議。運安會其實不是只有在事故的時候出現，運安會在平常的時候怎麼出現、用什麼角色出現？你們針對重大事故或以前國內遇過的，現在要去找出事故的根本跟潛在的風險，你們認為應該要怎麼樣才能夠讓運輸安全可以做得更好？"],["林主任委員信得：就像委員平常有關切的用AI，現在有一些通報案子進來，通報不一定要立案，但是通報進來的時候，我們都會開始用比較科學化的方式去統計，譬如臺鐵的虛驚事件，我們想這個好像有系統化風險問題時就會主動跟臺鐵講。"],["許委員智傑：對啊！所以你們的具體建議對國家運輸安全有重大影響，可不可以整理一些給我看？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有問題。"],["許委員智傑：比如普悠瑪、太魯閣的事故這麼嚴重，這麼多年了，有沒有哪幾項是因為運安會的建議而有具體的改善，或者是你們建議了卻還沒有改善？後面你們有沒有追蹤？就是你們希望它改善，但是它現在還沒改善。我一直覺得運安會給我的感覺就是……我想看的是積極性、主動性的效果，但是不容易看到，所以我希望運安會可以調整。比如針對這一次的78歲長者，事實上運輸安全不是針對年齡高低嘛，對不對？運輸安全是針對安全駕駛，如何能夠有安全駕駛的空間。現在交通部也在研議，但運安會有沒有功能、有沒有角色、有沒有建議？","以上資料是我們秘書去查的，讓你們當參考。針對換照的制度，臺灣現在是75歲以後；新加坡、韓國是65歲以後；日本、美國是70歲以後；英國是年滿70歲自動失效；法國是15年體檢一次。從安全駕駛的角度來看，換照的年齡不能只針對老人，也不要讓老人被誤解，一個長輩發生車禍造成所有的長輩要受害，也不是這樣，而是從安全駕駛的角度來看，應該多久，或者是幾歲，或者是重大傷病，有一個不一樣的安全駕駛觀念去針對換照制度調整。我強調一次，不是只針對老人，而是強調的是安全駕駛，假設已經90歲了，但各方面機能得很好，像我們看到世壯運一百零幾歲的還能夠打羽毛球，對不對？人家身體好，各項健康檢查都通過，若他要繼續開車，當然符合標準就可以開，所以不是年紀的問題，這個部分運安會可有想法？"],["林主任委員信得：我想年齡的問題當然跟委員講的一樣，年齡不是真正的……"],["許委員智傑：我是說運安會可有作為？"],["林主任委員信得：我們的作為是這樣，事實上，面對事故我們是調查，然後對症下藥，找出來的原因如果跟交通部的一些……如剛剛講的高齡或者與安全駕駛有關係，我們會跟他們做連結。"],["許委員智傑：因為時間差不多了，我的重點是，我一直期盼運安會主動出擊，事故當然是被動出擊，但是掌握事故根本原因、潛在風險，提出改善建議，這個應該是主動出擊嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["許委員智傑：好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們會後把一些資料給委員做報告。"],["許委員智傑：好，這個部分希望運安會可以加強。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑召委。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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請主席邀請林主委好 那應安會林主委"},{"start":10.363,"end":30.622,"text":"主委早安今天委員會的委員都在關心就是5月19號三峽那個就是發生的這個重大的車禍事故因為造成了3人死亡12人重傷的這樣子的一個車禍事故真的是舉國嘩然因為那個畫面真的是令人真的是"},{"start":31.763,"end":49.437,"text":"就是不忍那個看下去那因為在這個事件發生之後那網路上就很多的一個推測因為看到有網友說這個駕駛好像是路怒症然後我也有看到有網友分析說"},{"start":50.337,"end":54.602,"text":"他可能是這個駕駛的那部車的機械問題啊因為他在轉彎的時候就是卡住了那倒車的時候又撞到後面的車那心急之下心慌之下可能就是這個肇事逃逸又加上這個車輛"},{"start":66.474,"end":87.704,"text":"可能就是失去控制等等有各種不同的揣測其實這樣子的一個揣測當然就是也不是一個好的現象因為我們也希望就是說車禍事故也希望就是透過專業的單位來釐清就是這個車禍的原因然後找出原因之後當然我們也是要來預防我相信這也是雲灣會的一個職責所在"},{"start":90.965,"end":111.702,"text":"那我們也看到就是5月21號我們運行會也正式宣布說要立案調查那本席先請教一下就是這一個案子預計多久可以完成正式的調查報告就是不要說什麼初步的調查就是說整個結案然後向國人報告這樣子一個正式報告需要多久時間"},{"start":114.028,"end":130.757,"text":"這個案子是一級案一級案一般是一個月出報然後大概六個月以後有一個事實資料報告然後在一年之後最終的報告會出來但是這個案子我們投入了數個人力在調查那我希望能夠縮短"},{"start":132.006,"end":160.825,"text":"縮短希望能夠縮短時間那就是剛剛主委有提到說這個我們是列為一級的一個事故那是不是可以請主委簡單說一下這個分級我們是怎麼樣去分級怎樣去認定這個分級這個分級是這樣子因為每個像航空水路鐵道公路它的複雜度並不一樣分級這個也是跟國際間都是大概都差不多到的效益但是講到因為譬如說航空"},{"start":162.085,"end":177.035,"text":"有些分級你認為是說我應該18個月我應該15個月可是有些航空機譬如說它的發動機或是它的很多結構物要送到國外去檢驗或什麼這個就有時候不在我們控制之內一般都可以在原則之內把它完成"},{"start":177.555,"end":204.183,"text":"是是那因為我們看到就是從2019年我們運安會改制之後啊就是總共執行了24件的重大是公路事故的一個調查嘛那我們也發現就是說這些調查平均都有提早了2.4個月所以我們在這邊也希望就是說因為這個是一個全國矚目的一個重大車禍事故然後我們也希望就是說能夠盡早完成這個調查"},{"start":205.403,"end":229.363,"text":"然後讓就是可以一方面也是可以找出原因然後預防類似的事件在發生那另一方面也可以安定人心啊因為太多的揣測我覺得對社會也是不好的一個影響是不是那個主委是我們也是朝這個方向在做是好那我知道說我們對於整個就是運安會在執行這個重大車禍事故的一個調查可能就是"},{"start":231.184,"end":238.913,"text":"主要應該是兩個方面一個就是事實資料的一個收集以及包括後續分析作業那在這兩個方向可能在事實資料收集方的環節需要這個車禍事故的殘骸蒐證現場測量"},{"start":249.406,"end":261.248,"text":"紀錄器解讀跟人員訪談還有測試模擬等諸多項目那包括這麼多的一個工作要做那我請問一下就是主委這些工作啊我們的人員需要出差嗎"},{"start":262.608,"end":284.562,"text":"要 需要出差 要出差啦那因為我們也真的是就是很遺憾就是說看到今年度我們運安會的這個預算雖然今天我們是處理解凍當然就是說解凍的部分都已經處理完畢了可是針對國內旅費的部分事實上也是經過藍白聯手統刪了20%統刪之後我不曉得說這樣子的預算"},{"start":292.347,"end":321.272,"text":"可以就是來應付就是我們的這個就是相關的事故調查的量能嗎我們會變成會比較比較節縮啦但是就是就是會現在每一筆錢就會用的很緊啦但是國外就很吃苦啦國外很吃苦國外的非常非常非常痛苦因為我們要參加國外的會議啊去跟人家參加研討會議都現在都縮掉了這是比較痛苦"},{"start":322.312,"end":344.558,"text":"國外的部分就比較痛苦了剛剛我們也聽到我們的召委對我們這個運安會有很大的期許也很支持說我們要多進行這個交流就是國外交流的部分事實上國外的旅費我們是整個所有的中央政府的各部會是全部被捅散60%的"},{"start":346.579,"end":351.849,"text":"這個規模是很大嘛所以被同山60%之後我們這樣預算大概剩多少"},{"start":354.963,"end":379.575,"text":"一百多萬而已所以我們國外今年因為我們有參加國外很多的會議甚至我們是成員國那變成會排擠一定是會排擠的所以我們也是希望就是剛剛趙委員對你們有很大的期許那應該就是如我們林俊憲委員說的明年"},{"start":380.055,"end":404.968,"text":"我們稍微就不會再刪你們這個預算了我們也希望就是說未來在這個部分應該就是要支持讓我們因為整個社會的期待也希望我們運安會的一個權威跟專業性應該就是要受到國人的一個肯定的所以這個部分真的就是說出國交流的部分真的是非常的重要"},{"start":406.028,"end":425.865,"text":"尤其是開會 譬如說我們是國際藝術安全調查安全所長聯會 我們是每一年一定要去開在這個平台上 我們國家的能限度 我們跟各國交換一些調查專業技術等等如果不去 確實是很遺憾"},{"start":426.425,"end":435.009,"text":"是是好那最後就是在這邊本席要再強調就是說我們依據運輸事故調查法第五條規定運安會對重大的運輸事故的調查旨在避免運輸事故的再發生所以這個就是在強調我們運安會最重要的工作就是要找出交通事故的這個原因並提出改善的一個建議那我們看到就是說"},{"start":453.462,"end":462.388,"text":"截至這個2024年就是去年為止 雲安會針對重大的公路事故調查總共提出了改善的建議是158項那目前剩14項待改善改善率高達86%那就是說這些改善建議對於"},{"start":473.295,"end":498.734,"text":"就是交通的一個安全到底有沒有具體的改善我想這個才是國人重視的另外對於這剩餘14項還沒有改善的這部分我們有去了解是什麼原因嗎對這些還沒改善的是因為它要編預算然後它還要修滑或什麼等等比較慢但是事實上我們都有具體成果譬如說騰龍案對遊覽車車體的安全 座椅的安全"},{"start":502.737,"end":516.847,"text":"譬如說南方澳大橋那個案子就對橋樑安全就有改善大陸安全等等我想這個應該就是我們國人所期待需要的對江峰安全有具體改善成效的一個部分"},{"start":517.808,"end":535.869,"text":"是好我想這部分也是大家對於運營會的一個期許那我們也希望就是說在這部分不管是未來的就是國內的旅費或者是國外旅費的需求我們也希望就是我們全體委員都能夠支持好謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵謝謝好謝謝陳樹"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":210,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（9時54分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請林主委。"],["主席：好，運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：主委早安。今天委員會的委員都在關心5月19號在三峽發生的重大車禍事故，因為這個車禍事故造成3人死亡、12人重傷，真的是舉國譁然，那個畫面真的是令人不忍看下去。在這個事件發生之後，在網路上就有很多的推測，有網友說這個駕駛好像是路怒症，然後我看到也有網友分析可能是他所駕駛那部車的機械問題，因為他在轉彎的時候卡住了，在倒車的時候又撞到後面的車，他在心急、心慌之下可能就是肇事逃逸，再加上車輛可能就是失去控制等等，有各種不同的揣測。其實這樣子的揣測當然也不是一個好的現象，因為我們希望車禍事故就是透過專業單位來釐清車禍的原因，然後在找出原因之後，當然我們也是要來加以預防，我相信這也是運安會的職責所在。我們也看到運安會在5月21號正式宣布要立案調查，本席先請教一下，這個案子預計多久可以完成正式的調查報告？不要說什麼初步的調查，就是整個結案然後向國人提出一個正式的報告，你們需要多久的時間？"],["林主任委員信得：因為這個案子是一級案，一級案一般是1個月初報，然後大概6個月以後會有一個事實資料報告，然後在1年之後最終的報告會出來。但是對這個案子我們投入了15個人力在調查，那我希望能夠縮短。"],["陳委員素月：就是希望能夠縮短時間。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛主委有提到這個案子我們是列為一級的事故，那是不是可以請主委簡單說一下我們是怎麼樣去分級，怎麼樣去認定這個分級？"],["林主任委員信得：像航空、水路、鐵道、公路的複雜度並不一樣，那麼分級也是跟國際間都差不多，大同小異，譬如說航空的分級，你認為應該是18個月、應該是12個月，可是有些航空器譬如說它的發動機或它的很多結構物必須要送到國外去檢驗或做什麼，這個有時候就不在我們的控制之內，不過一般都可以在這個原則之內把它完成。"],["陳委員素月：是。我們看到從2019年運安會改制之後總共執行了24件重大公路事故的調查，那我們也發現這些調查平均都有提早了2.4個月，因為這是一個全國矚目的重大車禍事故，所以我們希望能夠儘早完成調查，一方面可以找出原因，然後預防類似的事件再發生，另一方面也可以安定人心，我覺得太多的揣測對社會也是有不好的影響，主委，是不是？"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們也是朝這個方向在做。"],["陳委員素月：好。我知道運安會在執行重大車禍事故的調查主要應該是分兩個方面，就是事實資料的蒐集以及後續的分析作業，就是這兩個方向。在事實資料蒐集的環節需要對車禍事故進行殘骸蒐證、現場測量、紀錄器解讀跟人員訪談還有測試、模擬等諸多項目，應該有這麼多的工作要做，那我請問主委，為了做這些工作，我們的人員需要出差嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：需要出差。"],["陳委員素月：要出差啦！"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["陳委員素月：我們也真的就是很遺憾，因為看到今年度運安會的預算，雖然今天我們是處理解凍，當然解凍的部分都已經處理完畢了，可是針對國內旅費的部分，事實上也是經過藍白聯手統刪了20%。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["陳委員素月：在統刪之後，這樣子的預算可以支應相關事故調查的量能嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們會變成比較節縮，現在就是每一筆錢都會用得很緊。"],["陳委員素月：是。"],["林主任委員信得：但是在國外就很吃苦。"],["陳委員素月：國外很吃苦？"],["林主任委員信得：在國外就非常、非常痛苦，因為我們要參加國外的會議，本來要去跟人家參加研討會議，現在都縮掉了，這是比較痛苦的。"],["陳委員素月：國外的部分就比較痛苦啦？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛也聽到我們的召委對運安會有很大的期許，也很支持我們要多進行國外交流的部分。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：事實上，國外旅費這個部分是中央政府各部會全部被統刪60%。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：這個規模是很大，在被統刪60%之後，這樣預算大概剩多少？只剩一百多萬而已嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對，因為我們有參加國外很多的會議，甚至我們是成員國，那變成會排擠啦！"],["陳委員素月：這一定是會排擠的。剛剛召委也對你們有很大的期許，那應該就是如林俊憲委員所說的，明年我們召委就不會再刪你們這個預算了。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：也希望未來在這個部分應該就是要支持，因為整個社會的期待也是希望運安會的權威跟專業性應該要受到國人的肯定，所以這個出國交流的部分真的是非常的重要。"],["林主任委員信得：尤其是開會，譬如說國際運輸安全協會首長年會，我們是每一年一定要去開會，在這個平臺上要提高我們國家的能見度，我們也會跟各國交換一些調查的專業技術等等，如果不去，確實是會很遺憾。"],["陳委員素月：是。最後本席要再強調，我們依據運輸事故調查法第五條規定，運安會對重大運輸事故的調查旨在避免運輸事故的再發生，所以這個就是要強調運安會最重要的工作就是要找出交通事故的原因並提出改善的建議。那我們看到截至去年（2024年）為止，運安會針對重大的公路事故調查總共提出158項改善建議，目前剩下14項待改善，改善率高達86%，這些改善建議對於交通安全到底有沒有具體的改善，我想這個才是國人重視的。另外，對於剩餘還沒有改善的14項這個部分，我們有去了解是什麼原因嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：這些還沒改善的部分是因為要編預算，然後還要修法或什麼等等，所以比較慢。但是事實上我們都有具體的成果，譬如說騰龍案，對遊覽車車體的安全、座椅的安全有改善，譬如說南方澳大橋那個案子，對橋梁安全就有改善，還有道路安全等等，都有具體的成果。"],["陳委員素月：對，我想這個應該是我們國人所期待、所需要的，就是對於交通安全有具體的改善成效。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["陳委員素月：我想這個也是大家對於運安會的期許，未來不管是國內旅費或者國外旅費的需求，我們也希望全體委員都能夠支持。"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝委員鼓勵，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的質詢。","現在請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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後來請你們再把它改回來嘛那指揮你也把它改回來嘛所以你現在可以立案調查了啦但是你知道我國重大的行政案件有多少嗎我隨便舉個例子給你看"},{"start":89.346,"end":115.447,"text":"你看2022年我就舉這幾年了啦2022年的年底啦台中公車在斑馬縣撞上一家三口啦一個媽媽跟嬰兒死亡那2023年1月啊宜蘭東山的女學生在斑馬縣上被煞車車給壓死然後同年的5月台南有一對母女在斑馬縣被撞母親捲入車底三歲女童重撞身亡"},{"start":116.618,"end":143.518,"text":"再來還有2023年三重發生一位台藝美國的大學生男生出門運動在巴馬縣結果拖到車撞死了我隨便寫幾個都是非常悲痛的慘案給主委你參考一下就是其實台灣過去已經發生這麼多起的重大行人死傷事件"},{"start":144.841,"end":173.673,"text":"那以前運安會都沒有做類似的調查因為按照以前運安會的規範可能沒有每一個個案來看都沒有達到你的立案調查的那個標準但你把它累積來看你就知道為什麼台灣會被稱為行人地獄你個案看覺得沒什麼你全部累積你就發現這個不會是單一偶然的個案"},{"start":175.492,"end":191.29,"text":"所以這一連串那是不是系統性造成的風險這當中過去都是交通部在調查警政署在調查造勢原因是不是這樣那原因是什麼不是什麼行人耗資動線規劃不良"},{"start":193.342,"end":222.308,"text":"最近也有提到的高齡駕駛的管理和危險駕駛的處理第三 車種 車輛的管理或大型車轉彎視角 視角的風險還有道路設計空間規劃的問題還有用路人習慣步驟的問題 都一大堆啦那到底各個單位的調查我們有沒有辦法做一個整體性的一個研究這恐怕要靠運安委啦"},{"start":224.262,"end":235.733,"text":"那主委你現在對於這樣的一種新人史上的調查你有什麼樣的個人看法嗎我想對所謂脆弱用路人的這個事故或命案"},{"start":237.236,"end":260.789,"text":"我們會持續關注啦 那該立案我們還是要立案啦你只有立這個案喔 你過去從來沒有啊我相信你只立第一個案啦 三峽這個個案可能以後還會當然我們不希望發生啦 但是我們會持續關注啦那我們希望啦 今天預案會能訂出一個讓我們大家以後可以真的好好的來改善啦"},{"start":262.188,"end":275.015,"text":"因為郵安會的組織法裡面就有規定郵安會有運輸事故趨勢分析這個可能就了解它是不是一個系統性的問題然後要提出運輸安全專案研究"},{"start":276.513,"end":297.564,"text":"但是運安會從2019年成立以來啊到現在啊你的組織章程裡面說要運安會有權要提出專案研究你給他提出兩個我找到現在只找到兩個一個是飲水人的專案研究報告一個就是貨運業專案研究報告全都沒有啦實際上沒有看過啦來我再給"},{"start":304.895,"end":324.686,"text":"主委你參考一下國外的案例你看美國的運安會美國運安會就針對行人事故他有一個Safety Research Report在這裡在他的安全的研究報告裡面他特別有針對行人"},{"start":327.024,"end":354.616,"text":"Special Investigation Report有沒有 他是針對Pedestrian Safety你看到吧針對行人這是美國運安會喔而且他早在2018年就提出來了他認為行人走路啊不可能連續這樣發生車禍啊因為他這邊有列出來就是車禍發生的案例啊就好像我剛剛列給你的他有這些案例所以美國運安會主動去調查"},{"start":356.923,"end":381.204,"text":"主動去調查然後他就寫出了這樣的一份行人安全的專特別啦他說特別研究報告這其實就是所謂國家設立運安會的目的也是你們運安會的職責啦那現在啊總算有第一件啦我覺得也可能是因為啊"},{"start":382.298,"end":408.641,"text":"媒體壓力太大啦這個重大車禍引起社會很大的一個憤怒所以我覺得運安會這個時候當然是不要介入啦不管你是不是受到壓力介入啦那既然運安會正式立案調查我們希望運安會能夠給我們大家做出一個系統性的研究你就看一下 看一看"},{"start":410.117,"end":436.743,"text":"台灣過去已經發生那麼多的重大的行人死亡的那個案件其實過去都沒有引起社會很大的一個反響反正就幾天新聞 過去就沒有了沒有人關心就算了那現在我們剛好利用三峽事件我們請運安會的專業能夠提供未來相關的行政該管部會能夠如何來改善"},{"start":438.239,"end":464.144,"text":"是是維護行人安全好不好是是這樣好好謝謝委員謝謝主委我也希望運安會能夠有一定的權威和專業才能得到社會的重視和尊重如果大家把運安會當作什麼單位啊你從立委重視的程度就看出來了給他對立委的質詢行李都不給了沒什麼立委要來啦"},{"start":465.758,"end":485.61,"text":"大家覺得你這個什麼單位不是很重要所以運安會要開始要拿出自己的一個你們的權威和專業出來說服大家嘛你給大家看嘛不然你這個單位你們自己你們自己做到有什麼榮譽感說你這兩個單位服務我在運安會那你什麼單位你幹什麼的這是一個運安會啊表演的一個機會啦"},{"start":493.652,"end":507.08,"text":"尤其剛我們林國臣委員對各位也有一些的勉勵啦都叫你們多交流多跟外界的所以林國臣委員賣你賣給你們台預算好了有時候要台你們都要跑到秋高你沒看"},{"start":509.352,"end":529.234,"text":"所以明年 林國仁委員會支持你們的預算我先替他講你們出國預算也好 業務費也好 業來積極主席 我們一起有共同的期望希望應安會能夠扮演該有的一個角色這樣好不好好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（9時44分）感謝主席，本席邀請我們運安會的林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：主委好。今天我們很多委員在這裡跟主委關心那個三峽重大車禍事件，現在運安會把它列案調查了，是不是這樣？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這個大概是我國第一件有造成行人死傷的公路車禍案件，我特別強調「行人死傷」，因為過去按照運安會的內部規定，造成這種公路重大車禍的死傷，要達到的標準是死亡3人，或者是死傷10人，或者是受傷15人才可以立案調查。不知主委是否記得，後來我就要求運安會應該要修改內規，要恢復你的霸王條款，就是只要運安會認定有調查必要的，你都有權力去立案調查。現在運安會也知道了，好像是在今年2月把它改過來了，是不是這樣？"],["林主任委員信得：現在這個調查的霸王條款在重要時刻還是要用啦！"],["林委員俊憲：本來是沒有的嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：本來舊條款也有。"],["林委員俊憲：舊條款就把它拿掉了，後來請你們再把它改回來，主委也把它改回來了。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以你現在可以立案調查了，但是你知道我國重大行人死傷案件有多少嗎？我隨便舉這幾年發生的例子給你看，2022年年底，臺中公車在斑馬線撞上一家三口，造成媽媽跟嬰兒死亡；2023年1月，宜蘭東山女學生在斑馬線上被砂石車給壓死；同年5月，臺南有一對母女在斑馬線被撞，母親捲入車底，3歲女童重創身亡；再來是2023年，三重發生一位臺裔美國男大學生出門運動，在斑馬線被拖吊車撞死。我隨便寫幾個都是非常悲痛的慘案，在此給主委參考一下。其實臺灣過去已經發生這麼多起的重大行人死傷事件，但以前運安會都沒有做類似的調查，因為按照以前運安會的規範，可能就每一個個案來看，都沒有達到你要立案調查的標準，但你把它累積來看，就會知道為什麼臺灣會被稱為行人地獄。你就個案來看，可能覺得沒什麼；若全部累積來看，你就會發現，這不是單一、偶然的個案，所以這一連串的事件是不是系統性造成的風險？","在這個過程當中，過去都是交通部、警政署在調查肇事原因，是不是這樣？而肇事的原因有什麼呢？比方說行人號誌動線規劃不良；最近也有提到的高齡駕駛管理和危險駕駛的處理；第三，車種、車輛的管理，或者大型車轉彎視角、死角的風險；還有道路設計、空間規劃的問題；還有用路人習慣不佳的問題，總之，原因一大堆，到底就各個單位的調查來看，我們有沒有辦法做一個整體性的研究？這恐怕要靠運安會了。主委，現在對於這種行人死傷的調查，你個人有什麼看法嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對於所謂脆弱用路人發生事故或是命案，我們會持續關注，該立案的我們還是要立案。"],["林委員俊憲：但是你只有立這個案，過去則是從來都沒有，你只立了第一個案。"],["林主任委員信得：我相信三峽這個個案可能以後……當然我們並不希望發生，但是我們還是會持續關注。"],["林委員俊憲：我們希望運安會能訂出一個規範，讓這些情況以後真的可以好好改善，因為運安會組織法裡面就有規定，運安會的工作項目包括運輸事故趨勢分析，就是去了解它是不是一個系統性的問題，然後要提出運輸安全專案研究。運安會自2019年成立以來到現在，你的組織章程裡面有說，運安會有權提出專案研究，但到現在你只提出兩個，我找到現在只找到兩個，一個是引水人的專案研究報告；一個就是貨運業專案研究報告，剩下都沒有！","我再給主委參考一下國外的案例啦，像美國的運安會針對行人事故有一個安全研究報告（Safety Research Report），在這安全研究報告裡面是有特別針對行人的（Special Investigation Report：Pedestrian Safety），這是美國運安會做的，而且早在2018年就提出來了。它認為行人走路，不可能這樣連續發生車禍，這邊也有列出發生的車禍案例，就好像我剛才列給你看的案例，所以是美國運安會主動去調查，然後寫出這樣一份關於行人安全的特別研究報告。這其實就是國家設立運安會的目的，也是你們運安會的職責，現在總算有第一件立案，我覺得也可能是因為媒體壓力太大，這個重大車禍引起社會很大的憤怒，所以我覺得運安會這個時候當然是有必要介入，不管你是不是受到壓力介入，既然運安會已經正式立案調查，我們希望運安會能夠給我們大家做出一個系統性的研究。","你可以看到，臺灣過去已經發生那麼多重大行人死亡的案件，其實過去都沒有引起社會很大的迴響，反正就是只有幾天新聞，新聞過去就沒有了，沒人關心就算了。現在我們剛好利用三峽事件，請運安會就你們的專業，提供未來相關行政該管部會看看如何改善，以維護行人安全，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：主委，我也希望運安會能夠有一定的權威和專業，才能得到社會的重視和尊重，不然大家都把運安會當作什麼單位呢？你從立委重視的程度就可以看出來，今天立委對你的質詢可說是生意很差、沒什麼立委要來質詢，所以大家覺得你這是什麼單位呢？也沒什麼重要啊！所以運安會要開始拿出你們的權威和專業說服大家，做給大家看，不然像你們這樣的單位，你們自己做得有什麼榮譽感呢？如果有人問你在哪個單位服務、是做什麼的？充其量也只能回答是在運安會做事。這是運安會一個可以表現的機會，尤其剛剛林國成委員對各位也有一些勉勵，他說你們要跟外界有多一些交流，所以林國成委員明年應該不會砍你們的預算，之前就是被砍，所以你們沒辦法出國，明年林國成委員會支持你們的預算，我先替他這樣講啦！"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：你們的出國預算也好，業務費也好，他會給你們支持。"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：主席，我們一起有共同的期望，希望運安會能夠扮演該有的角色，這樣好不好？謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林俊憲委員的質詢。林俊憲委員的這種期許、勉勵跟本席的看法完全一樣，其實該給的，立法院也不會吝嗇，該給的、該用的，我相信我們交通委員會所有的委員都會支持，所以在國際研究跟考察的部分，這個基本上本來就是要去做的。另外就是跟交通部的運輸研究所要連結，你們都沒有連結，你做你的，他做他的，我還是希望有連結性，這樣才有辦法改變系統性，好不好？","接下來由陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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你知道這個責任非常重大欸你陸上 航空 海運通通我們在做調查所以主委 你的責任重大在領導之下 要把這些要團結一致這是我給你們的一個啟齊好 那個 主委因為那個三重跟台南這個案件啊說實在 是社會矚目啦"},{"start":155.598,"end":175.859,"text":"也就是說不管他今天發生的事故到底是什麼可是我還是要拜託主委你們有沒有辦法把這個時程既然社會矚目的交通事故的調查有沒有可能不要一窮不變"},{"start":177.68,"end":202.497,"text":"單純的調查在三個月 六個月就把它完成不要因為我們的規定啊要一年啊 要兩年啊我跟你講 台灣話說一句話啊這就廢笑啊就廢話啊 你是在調查什麼社會矚目 要有一個社會矚目的調查的時辰所以 主委 有沒有可能就是加快腳步"},{"start":203.377,"end":230.291,"text":"三到六個月就把真相把它調查清楚有沒有可能我也希望這樣子加快啦但是它有一定的程序在走啦我可以加進不要12個月也許提早到11個月但是因為這個調查官都是獨立做而且我剛剛包括過我們分成車輛分組分成操作分組生還因素分組紀錄性分組這些都是要科學儀器再測再量再走"},{"start":231.731,"end":246.5,"text":"我們蠻期待這樣啦社會矚目的問題越早讓公布社會讓社會知道越好也會樹立到我們應安會裡面調查的威信問題啦所以我還是希望"},{"start":247.04,"end":264.259,"text":"我們這個上台的這幾位重要幹部啊好好研究一下單純的速度就快複雜的當然要有時效的問題這個我們也是支持但是我們蠻期待的像這種公路啊或什麼"},{"start":265.68,"end":276.645,"text":"你航空啊 海運啊這個是比較困難可是道路的問題是比較單純所以我還是希望在這個部分要加速腳步好 另外一個問題就是從單一的調查"},{"start":281.462,"end":309.018,"text":"可以解決系統的問題那這裡啊單一的問題也就是系統的問題你們要怎麼要有固定我看你們從來也沒有做這只有把調查報告出來以後就交給各有關單位他們去改善但是我還是在這裡一個建議啦單一的事項調查有可能解決系統性的問題"},{"start":309.838,"end":332.03,"text":"也不是說你每一件調查以後 但是系統性是沒有解決啊所以有沒有可能我建議 也就是上台的這幾位重要幹部要藏跟 要藏跟交通部的運輸研究所因為為什麼 那些運輸研究所他是在研究"},{"start":333.035,"end":358.38,"text":"他的結構性他的事情的發生但是你們調查以後丟給他們他們沒有在做研究那等於沒有系統性的解決所以在這個部分我還是滿建議這個應該主委你主動下去做就是請他們我調查出來的時候請你來表示意見也就是我調查出來的缺點跟調查出來的結構"},{"start":359.824,"end":375.621,"text":"哪邊有問題他們去研究才好我看這現在研究機構跟你們調查機構他做他的他做那怎麼會有系統性的解決呢所以主委你針對本席給你建議這些你有什麼看法"},{"start":376.272,"end":384.775,"text":"我覺得是很好的建議我們可以跟他溝通看看他能不能選擇性的做研究沒有 你要主動要求我相信交通部部長他也不會反對 為什麼系統性解決 事端就會少可是問題現在就是這樣一切為二他做他的研究 你做你的調查就會形成什麼沒有系統性的連結"},{"start":405.143,"end":432.11,"text":"也就是單一事件發生並非解決系統的問題那他的研究單位存在跟你的調查單位存在永遠格格不入他的研究是提供給交通政策但是你的調查只基於調查可是那研究單位不知道啊他研究不出來系統性如何去解決所以我要拜託主委你主動"},{"start":433.257,"end":459.171,"text":"你主動主動邀請他們把資料提供給他們可是他們研究不出來你的責任已了我認為應該要怎麼做但是你們研究出來也不提供給交通部那當然就會形成現在這個交通的這種紛亂因為你們的研究單位現在我特別跟主委說明你們現在的權威性"},{"start":460.171,"end":485.35,"text":"跟專業性越來越重人民期待你們的真相所以你不得不做這些所以我拜託這個部分那另外一個最後我要特別也就是說我們自願報到系統也就是公路這個成效很差的你回去這一組要特別來下一張這個你看一下"},{"start":486.656,"end":505.997,"text":"主委當然啦因為任何的事情要民意代表跟你們指責出來指點出來你們才去做研究啦從108年到現在你們這個案子到最後調查出來公開成案的機率非常少也就是"},{"start":507.519,"end":520.611,"text":"這個自願報告的案件數59件但是成案的只有15件會在這個部分去做說明這代表什麼 這代表宣導是不做的啦"},{"start":521.499,"end":549.901,"text":"所以我主張我主張也就是剛才我講的跟那個交通部的運輸手我們多研究你編一點預算嘛你們自動編嘛跟他們做一個交流甚至於我還是主張你們要去多去什麼多編一點預算要去跟國外人家做的非常有系統的這些調查單位去做交流這點我個人是蠻支持的"},{"start":550.721,"end":569.313,"text":"蠻支持的因為你沒有國際的做研究那最後確確實實在這個部分我們只有蹲在台灣的東西別人的先進 國際的東西我們接軌不來的話我們永遠都是這樣改變不了系統性所以這點我還是要建議"},{"start":570.434,"end":594.873,"text":"下年度可能要快編預算我認為這個一定要去編預算所以希望我們主委要去爭取這兩個系統一個就是該宣導的你們要宣導第二個該跟學術團體做研究出來才有辦法改變系統性的東西所以我希望主委還有今天上來的重要幹部包括副主委"},{"start":595.333,"end":618.72,"text":"包括這個各位專委還有我們這些執行長跟這個組密這個部分你們要共同幫主委提供一點意見把它及時廣益把它做到最後歸納可以調查跟研究結合把它改變系統性的東西可以不可以 主委好 我們朝這方面來努力好 謝謝謝謝 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請一下林主委好 應安委林主委"},{"start":10.384,"end":35.282,"text":"林主委您好有關於5月19號三峽的重大車禍造成嚴重的傷亡國人都非常的錯愕與傷痛那當然在第一時間我有跟運安會來聯絡認為這件事情是符合重大公路事故的調查要件應該列入調查當然我們在"},{"start":36.448,"end":57.525,"text":"公路的這樣一個事故的調查條件 運安會有基本的規範第一個就是它是交通運輸工具 貨物的運輸工具以及大型的這種自用車造成三人以上的這樣的一個死亡 或是十人的這樣的一個受傷"},{"start":58.426,"end":83.987,"text":"或是15人以上受傷就列入這個調查的條件或者是它是交通運輸工具 貨物運輸工具有在這種危險的物質或放射物質翻覆外洩造成死亡的話也是列入調查另外一個就是我們所說的重大的公路事件造成社會注意的這樣的一個重大案件也必須來做調查"},{"start":86.289,"end":96.83,"text":"那現在調查的進度如何來簡單說明一下什麼時候會完成這個資料的報告以及最終的調查完成報告"},{"start":98.01,"end":118.619,"text":"我們一個月內會發布初步的報告然後五個月內會發布事實資料的報告就是一個月是初步的報告那大概是在今年的十月應該會發布資料的調查報告然後明年的五月會完成相關的這樣的一個調查的報告"},{"start":121.781,"end":140.396,"text":"這個應該盡快的讓國人來知道相關的這樣的一個交通意外的事故那另外我們來看交通意外事故的預防它的重要性是越來越重要那我們看到我們運安會的這樣的一個組織法的第二條"},{"start":141.337,"end":157.107,"text":"就是運輸事故的趨勢分析運輸安全的改善建立他的追蹤以及運輸安全的專案研究是我們運安會組織的一個重要的基礎那我們來看看"},{"start":158.605,"end":178.064,"text":"異常事故 異常事件或是中小型事故的統計跟分析是非常重要的因為我們可以提前來發現這些事故它的發生的一個隱憂然後預防事故發生的一個重要基礎"},{"start":179.406,"end":194.465,"text":"這就是一個基本的一個觀念那但是我看到近期具有潛在風險的異常事件例如滑行的引擎蓋脫落的事件或者是台鐵列車停靠"},{"start":195.646,"end":213.145,"text":"不靠這個不當的事件還有高鐵停站未開門的事件或是公路客運大規模超時過老的這些問題這些不管是他設備的問題操作的問題或是人為的因素等等啊那"},{"start":214.994,"end":244.156,"text":"我們的運安會最主要的是事後調查但是這個觀念也必須逐漸改變國際的趨勢已經是從事後調查提升到事前預防世界各國的主要的這種運安會類似的組織都已經朝這個趨勢那當然我們運安會必須要取得相關的資料"},{"start":245.626,"end":261.076,"text":"取得相關的這些相關的這些狀況的收集當然我們有這種參照世界各國"},{"start":262.574,"end":288.048,"text":"的主要的安全調查機構它的制度跟相關的研究我們看到資料掌握還有風險預警是現在運輸安全一個治理重要的核心我們國家並不是沒有預防的這樣的一個機制也有啦就是之前我長期在推動的志願報告系統從非安會的時期到現在這樣的一個"},{"start":291.671,"end":319.505,"text":"機制其實還是明顯的不足因為我們事前的預防機制是參照歐美的這種資源報告系統但是它個案的處理哪裡系統性的預防沒有辦法做到系統性的預防所以我看到我們應該是應該跟世界各國一樣我舉加拿大為例加拿大他們各交通系統發生異常的事件他們立刻就要"},{"start":320.68,"end":323.164,"text":"依法就要通報加拿大的運安會"},{"start":324.68,"end":351.602,"text":"而且建立資料庫來進行統計的一個分析主委這就是說我們都是消極的在等待這些志願報告系統不管是駕駛者或者是乘客所提供的志願報告系統他們消極的提供我們才去做相關的一個處理但是世界各國現在如果有異常事故的話"},{"start":352.803,"end":374.736,"text":"發生這種狀況雖然沒有發生事故這些事件沒有發生成事故但是他還是會主動依法要通報他們的運安會那而且來建立資料庫來進行分析那我們現在沒有直接的這樣的一個機制來主委說明一下"},{"start":375.678,"end":392.946,"text":"我們有這個機制啦我們現在的志願報告系統就是這個機制但是我們沒有依法他們要有發生這種異常事故的異常事件的時候就要依法要通報銀行會我們是要依照志願報告系統"},{"start":395.041,"end":406.271,"text":"除了資源包括系統以外各機關他們有發生像Niamis也就是說那個這個Niamis就是蓄積事件什麼他們都會通報我們這邊都有統計"},{"start":408.84,"end":423.812,"text":"目前為止都幾乎百分之一百都通報交通部各單位發生這樣的異常事件不是事故喔異常事件的時候他們就會依法直接通報你們是嗎你要確定喔"},{"start":427.114,"end":440.135,"text":"相關台鐵每年發生的異常事件是非常的多你們沒見他們都有依法通報你們嗎因為當他通報有一些匿名是比較冷你們還要主動向他們調閱勒"},{"start":442.179,"end":457.775,"text":"沒有當他累積到某一個是不是的時候我們跟他講說你這是這個事件好像是頻率很高的時候就如同這個委一直關心的我們會啟動所以目前都是都是兩邊是互通沒有沒有說會主委是"},{"start":459.136,"end":478.072,"text":"你的了解跟認知跟我有差距運安會從非安會從你在當民進黨局副局長的時候我就在交通委員會長期就在推動運安會相關的組織以及它運作的狀況當然我非常清楚我們在過去是自願報告系統自願呢"},{"start":479.915,"end":506.657,"text":"不是依法就要通報我們相關運安會建立資料庫的現在是這個機制的它的主動性跟消極性的差別呢你去了解啦是是是你去了解啦是是你們的組織法跟調查法還是我訂的呢是這個機制希望你能夠去了解一下我們要把它加進去那我們從事故預防啊它的"},{"start":508.161,"end":526.771,"text":"預防的這種分析它的完整性資料的完整性資料完整性的分析是很重要所以我說不只是志願報告系統而是要主動的來提供依法就要提供給我們的運安會而且要建立資料庫來做統計跟分析那"},{"start":527.731,"end":549.549,"text":"事前預防都是國際趨勢都可以看出我們必須要做這樣一個積極的作為那預安會能夠掌握這種交通事故以及異常事件的資訊對促進交通安全的重要性是非常的重要所以我建議就是要擴大資料的調閱權限"},{"start":551.837,"end":570.347,"text":"我們要 運安會有主動的這樣的一個權限我們來檢討一下相關的法令的機制因為現在只是自願報告系統而且啊 只是你們要釣魚的時候跟他們要 他們會給而不是依法每一件都要送到你們這邊而且要建立資料庫的一個分析"},{"start":571.175,"end":591.751,"text":"另外也要跟交通部來協調取得各交通系統資料庫調閱的權限公路局的資料 台鐵公司的資料 高鐵公司的資料你們隨時都應該可以取得相關的這樣的一個資訊而且要進行統計分析來做預防的一個工作"},{"start":592.532,"end":620.933,"text":"那長期來說 我認為應該要建立資料自動 介接同步的一個整合的資料庫各交通主管機關來協調所需的資料 而且要建立交換的格式這個請主委跟我們相關的人員 朝這個方面來努力最後就是強化分級的管理 來推動安全的一個改善"},{"start":621.893,"end":643.961,"text":"異常事件或事故的趨勢分析以及改善建議我們要以風險的危害性以及發生的機率來進行分級列出改善的優先次序及急迫性通知主管機關並且進行公告來請主委最後做一個說明目前我們醫院會的運作狀況"},{"start":646.007,"end":668.798,"text":"我們目前的運作通報確實是有分級啦那如同剛剛委員講的我們事實上可以把這個分級再嚴謹一點比較好謝謝主委我們這個工作都是很重要的關係到事件不只是事後調查我們在事前的預防相關資料分析來建立這樣的一個交通安全改善的一個重要基礎"},{"start":669.498,"end":676.583,"text":"這也是過去我提出啊 年度交通安全改善建議的這樣的一個建議書啊一個重要的基礎啦 以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":110,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時22分）謝謝召委，請一下林主委。"],["主席：請運安會林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：林主委你好。有關於5月19日三峽重大車禍造成嚴重傷亡，國人都非常錯愕與傷痛，當然在第一時間我有跟運安會聯絡，認為這件事情符合重大公路事故的調查要件，應該列入調查。當然，針對公路的事故調查條件，運安會有基本規範，第一個是交通運輸工具、貨物運輸工具以及大型自用車，造成3人以上死亡，或是10人受傷及死亡，或是15人以上受傷就列入事故調查的條件，或者是交通運輸工具、貨物運輸工具載有危險物質或放射物質，翻覆、外洩而造成死亡的話，也是列入調查。","另外一個就是我們所說的重大公路事件，造成社會注意的重大案件也必須要調查，現在調查的進度如何？請簡單說明一下，什麼時候會完成這個資料的報告，以及最終的調查報告？"],["林主任委員信得：我們1個月內會發布初步的報告，然後5個月內會發布事實資料的報告。"],["李委員昆澤：就是1個月是初步的報告……"],["林主任委員信得：對，初報會出來。"],["李委員昆澤：大概是在今年10月應該會發布資料的調查報告？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["李委員昆澤：明年5月會完成相關的調查報告？"],["林主任委員信得：是最終的，對。"],["李委員昆澤：應該儘快地讓國人知道這樣一個相關的交通意外事故。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，我們來看交通意外事故的預防，它的重要性越來越重要。我們看到運安會組織法第二條，就是運輸事故趨勢分析、運輸安全改善建議之追蹤以及運輸安全的專案研究。是我們運安會組織的一個重要基礎。","我們來看看異常事故、異常事件或是中小型事故的統計跟分析是非常重要的，因為我們可以提前發現這些事故發生的隱憂，是預防事故發生的重要基礎，這就是一個基本的觀念。但是我看到近期具有潛在風險的異常事件，例如華信引擎蓋脫落的事件，或者是臺鐵列車停靠不當的事件，還有高鐵停站未開門的事件，或是公路客運大規模超時過勞的問題，這些不管是設備的問題、操作的問題，或者是人為因素的等等，運安會最主要的是事後調查，但是這個觀念也必須逐漸改變，國際的趨勢已經是從事後調查提升到事前預防，世界各國類似運安會的組織都已經朝這個趨勢。","當然，我們運安會必須要取得相關的資料，取得這些相關狀況的蒐集，當然也要參照世界各國主要安全調查機構的制度跟相關研究。我們看到資料掌握，還有風險預警是現在運輸安全治理的重要核心。我們國家並不是沒有預防的機制，也有啦……"],["林主任委員信得：有、有。"],["李委員昆澤：就是之前我長期在推動的自願報告系統，從飛安會時期到現在，但這樣的一個機制，其實還是明顯不足。我們事前的預防機制是參照歐美的自願報告系統，但是對個案的處理卻難以系統性的預防，沒有辦法做到系統性的預防，所以我看我們應該跟世界各國一樣。我舉加拿大為例，加拿大各交通系統發生異常事件，要立刻依法通報加拿大的運安會，而且建立資料庫進行統計分析。主委，這就是說，我們都是消極地等待這些自願報告系統，不管是駕駛者或乘客所提供的自願報告系統，他們消極的提供，我們才去做相關的處理。但是世界各國現在如果有異常事故的話，發生這種狀況雖然沒有發生事故，這些事件沒有發生成事故，但還是會主動依法通報他們的運安會，而且會建立資料庫進行分析，不過我們現在並沒有直接的機制。請主委說明一下。"],["林主任委員信得：我們有這個機制啦！我們現在的自願報告系統就是這個機制，然後我們的……"],["李委員昆澤：但是我們沒有依法，就是當他們發生這種異常事故、異常事件的時候，要依法通報運安會，我們是依照自願報告系統。"],["林主任委員信得：除了自願報告系統以外，各機關發生像near 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miss，比較……"],["李委員昆澤：你們還要主動向他們調閱耶！"],["林主任委員信得：沒有，當它累積到某一個次數的時候，我們會跟它講，你這個事件好像頻率很高，這時就如同委員一直關心的，我們會啟動，所以目前兩邊都是互通的，沒有說會……"],["李委員昆澤：主委，你的瞭解和認知跟我有差距啦，運安會從你在當民航局副局長的時候，我就在交通委員會長期推動運安會相關的組織以及它運作的狀況。當然，我非常清楚，我們過去是自願報告系統，是「自願」耶！不是依法通報運安會以建立資料庫，所以現在是這個機制的主動性跟消極性的差別，你去瞭解啦！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：你去瞭解啦！你們的組織法跟調查法還是我訂的。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：這個機制，希望你能夠去瞭解一下。"],["林主任委員信得：我們要把它……"],["李委員昆澤：我們從分析事故預防資料的完整性……資料完整性的分析是很重要的，所以我說不只是自願報告系統，而是要主動依法提供給我們的運安會，而且要建立資料庫統計跟分析。事前預防都是國際趨勢，都可以看出我們必須要有這樣一個積極的作為。運安會能夠掌握這種交通事故以及異常事件的資訊，對促進交通安全的重要性非常重要，所以我建議要擴大資料的調閱權限，運安會要有主動的調閱權限。我們來檢討一下相關的法令機制，因為現在只是自願報告系統，而且是你們跟他們調閱的時候，他們才給，並不是依法每一件都要送到你們這邊，而且要建立資料庫的分析。","另外，也要跟交通部協調取得各交通系統資料庫調閱的權限，公路局的資料、臺鐵公司的資料、高鐵公司的資料，你們應該隨時都可以取得相關的資訊，而且要進行統計分析，作為預防的工作。長期來說，我認為應該要建立資料自動介接同步整合的資料庫，各交通主管機關要協調所需的資料，而且要建立交換的格式，這個請主委跟我們相關的人員朝這個方面努力。","最後就是強化分級的管理，以推動安全的改善。異常事件或事故的趨勢分析以及改善建議，我們要以風險的危害性，以及發生的機率進行分級，並列出改善的優先次序及急迫性，要通知主管機關並且進行公告。最後請主委說明目前運安會的運作狀況。"],["林主任委員信得：我們目前的運作狀況確實是有分級，如同剛剛委員講的，我們事實上可以把這個分級再嚴謹一點比較好。"],["李委員昆澤：好，謝謝主委，這些工作都是很重要的……"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝。"],["李委員昆澤：關係到事件，不只是事後的調查，我們也透過事前的預防、相關資料的分析，建立交通安全改善的重要基礎，這也是過去我提出年度交通安全改善建議書的一個重要基礎，以上。"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員的質詢。"],["主席（李委員昆澤代）：現在請林國成召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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新北三峽發生重大的車禍意外我想國人都非常的難過但現在最重要是釐清真相跟還原事實我們有看到運安會也已經說成立專案小組並且查扣車輛上面的事故資料記錄器那到目前為止已經快兩個禮拜過去那我們有沒有什麼樣的一個比較新的進度來還原整個事實的真相"},{"start":36.495,"end":57.53,"text":"這個案子我們的EDI就是所謂行程電腦已經開始在解讀那我們跟檢調單位目前在合作那相關的資料都有在互通因為基於檢調單位偵查不公開的原則我們目前還是在因為這個案子EDI的解讀一般差不多要三四個禮拜但初步因為它要同步"},{"start":58.01,"end":78.572,"text":"EDR要三四個禮拜但對於我們來講現在國人想要了解的是說到底這件事情它是因為第一時間交通部在第二天馬上就調修了所謂的高齡駕車的一個年限的緊縮從本來75歲往下修70歲那一時間大家以為是說是不是高齡者的一個高齡駕車的問題"},{"start":80.074,"end":100.231,"text":"那但是又看到的是他有400公尺內四次的事故尤其是一開始的時候在那個路口有所謂的肇事逃逸所以我們現在國人大家想問的是到底他是故意還是過失是人為的因素還是肇事逃逸那這些部分沒有辦法讓國人有一個比較清楚明白了解嗎"},{"start":103.562,"end":118.658,"text":"這個要等這個我剛剛講ED要解讀出來之後還要配合所有的CCTV還有配合這個駕駛的訪談等等這個整個整個一系列的這個調查還有很多要磨合在一起當然"},{"start":119.258,"end":146.193,"text":"就是因為有很多所以說國人現在想要了解是說我們到底各單位的進度或是各單位是不是能夠積極辦理讓國人早日了解真相三人死亡十二人受傷這難道不應該重視嗎我們已經動員整個全會大概有十五個人力在集中火力在調查這個案子是所以什麼時候因為以往的運安事故發生一個月才會公佈初步的調查報告沒有錯"},{"start":146.653,"end":174.783,"text":"那你現在又在推說因為這個可能檢調現在正在偵辦當中但我們其實對檢調也有點為詞啊因為也有網路上面講說同病房的人好像有聽到說這一個加害者他已經醒過來了但到目前為止怎麼都看到還沒有做筆錄那當然我相信檢調應該都有派專人再去做看管這一個加害者只要要一清醒可以做筆錄就應該要做筆錄嘛"},{"start":176.156,"end":196.758,"text":"但現在重點是各單位有沒有積極的讓國人了解還是說真的如同陰謀論來講這個背後可能八股很大可能是某某某綠營調查咖還是怎麼樣還是跟誰關係好所以大家想要大事化小 小事化無有可能嗎這個我沒有聽說"},{"start":198.018,"end":222.073,"text":"不可能嘛 主委這不好笑不是 主委我們要的是真相 要的是還原事實好 來看一下喔今年3月 交通部長陳士凱才講說行人走在斑馬線上被車撞死是國死所以修法要更嚴厲但昨天交通部周年記者會卻改口說行人地獄只是形容詞 見仁見智"},{"start":223.766,"end":239.742,"text":"我想請教以主管道安交安的主管機關這種說法運安會你能夠接受嗎我們尊重交通部主管機關啦因為我們是事故的調查機關這角度是不太一樣的"},{"start":241.015,"end":269.338,"text":"那可以接受說現在到底行人地獄在台灣國外國際觀光客為什麼會有行人地獄這四個字其實本席身為中華民國的一份子我也覺得很難過啊當國外的遊客來到台灣然後就感受到說是行人地獄的時候其實這是一竿子打翻一船人可是為什麼會有這樣的罵名不也就是過去不管是道路不管是駕駛人不管是相關的單位大家的疏忽累積而成"},{"start":270.95,"end":286.104,"text":"那現在講說行人地域只是形容詞見仁見智那我們的運安會能夠協助是不是能夠給交通主管機關更強而有力的督促啊 主委"},{"start":286.994,"end":313.693,"text":"我們這個案子調查出來之後可能會有系統化的風險問題我們會給交通部做建議調查出來之後會有系統化的方式給交通部做建議對好來那我請教第一時間我剛剛開眾名義就講第一時間三峽案件一發生完之後第一時間交通部第二天記者會馬上就有講是說要調修這所謂的高齡駕車的部分當然最近也有一連串其他高齡駕駛肇事的狀況"},{"start":316.135,"end":332.116,"text":"但是就針對這一個事件初步判斷感覺跟高齡比較沒有直接的關係那主委對於這一連串我們台灣社會最近比較多的媒體報導的高齡駕車事件事故你有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":333.095,"end":350.729,"text":"我覺得我們是應該跟交通部一起來共同努力交通部雖然已經在第一時間有給國人一個交代可是這個案子是屬於調查案子調查案子的過程我們應該要更加努力所以我剛剛幫我們投入了15個人力這個幾乎是排擠掉其他的案子了"},{"start":353.544,"end":375.274,"text":"這重大的案件當然也應該要趕快調查給國人適時真相了解啊我每一次我都講嘛 運安會今天是解凍案報告我每次都講說運安會來我們可以很心平氣和討論交通的精進交通的改善這都好事啊 因為代表沒有事故發生啊沒有事故發生我們超前部署防範未然啊"},{"start":375.894,"end":405.078,"text":"但現在既然事故發生了我們要的是記取這次的教訓避免下次再犯所以才要找出這件事件的真實原因是肇事逃逸是荒唐駕車是人為因素是車輛控管不良還是高齡駕車這些綜合出來之後我們才能做政策來對症下藥啊不是嗎所以後續高齡駕駛的一連串的事故我們運安會會有提出相關建議"},{"start":407.082,"end":427.509,"text":"是不是能夠針對這個不管是現在從75歲調降到70歲但是70歲是換照他還是有那我們那時候也提過是說你的高齡駕駛除了我的身心的感知以外可能還有其他的部分需要再進一步的做評估來不是只是單純年齡一分法"},{"start":430.508,"end":448.77,"text":"確實沒有錯 不是只有單純的問題所以運安會後續是不是也可以提供專業的建議給交通部因為交通部講說三個月內會把配套措施出來那我們運安會這邊是不是也可以提供參考其他國外的案例 參考國外的制度我想我們應該會提供一些建議給他們"},{"start":450.988,"end":467.065,"text":"因為我們分成四個分組在調查嘛操作分組 車輛分組 生還因素的還有紀錄區分組那這四個分組在15個人力裡面我們所調查出來之後還要去同步 還要解讀 還要訪談我只是請教 那交通部有沒有找 雲南會開會過了"},{"start":469.037,"end":482.308,"text":"還沒有目前還沒有目前還沒有三個月內他們就要提出來就運安會我覺得很重要的一個機關也是獨立自主的機關調查事故的機關專業機關交通部不早開會莫名其妙"},{"start":483.581,"end":498.362,"text":"我們是不是能夠主動的問交通部說有什麼樣可以協助的地方參與這次的一個調整的政策開會溝通提供專業意見事實上我們這個案子的專案小組組織分工會議裡面有找他們來看過會"},{"start":499.895,"end":515.316,"text":"有找他們來 專業組織婚婚會他們有來過主委我講的是兩件事嘛專案小組是你們現在在組成是調查新北市三峽事故這個是專案小組但本席現在講的是交通部因應這一個案件之後他就調整了高齡駕車的"},{"start":516.778,"end":538.814,"text":"年齡比例 從75歲變到70歲然後他說他要做相關的配套 但是這個部分跟這一件事情一個是獨立案件 我們要真相請運安會趕快讓國人知道真相但另外一個部分是 交通部做出一個反應但這個反應其實它並不是這個獨立事件的主要原因可是交通部還是做了"},{"start":539.654,"end":567.08,"text":"就是所謂的高齡駕車 從75歲變70歲那本席也尊重 因為過去也有一些討論那只是說 現在一連串的事故裡面也有高齡駕車它可能不是這一個獨立案件的主要原因可是既然要講高齡駕車 它可能是另外一個事件的時候我們運動會要提出相關的建議啊你不能講說你這個獨立案件 你們又找交通部開會然後這一個高齡駕車的政策 你們就放著不管啊"},{"start":568.05,"end":587.578,"text":"不會啦不會嘛因為我們我們主動一點好不好我們的調查重點裡面也會考慮到這個駕駛行為調查搞造的體檢制度調查的這個這個管理制度這裡面就會涉及高齡的問題好來那主委我最後一個問題請教這可能也跟您過去轉眼雲過去是民航局副局長"},{"start":588.658,"end":611.589,"text":"那最近也有另外一個年齡的問題卻是機師的人口缺口所以交通部要修正所謂的航空人員檢定給照管理規則擴大放寬年齡的範圍從最低要放寬到18歲並且最高同航班年齡反而是從不超過60歲放寬到不超過65歲"},{"start":615.546,"end":642.271,"text":"所以在另外一個航空的部分因為機師的缺口反而他是要放寬年齡的級距從高齡的60歲現行60歲的制度要多放寬5歲變65歲所以一方面路上他是要降低年齡的限度從75歲降到70歲他就要受相關的換照可是航空他卻是要65歲放寬60歲放寬到65歲"},{"start":646.064,"end":671.296,"text":"主委 以你的專業判斷 你有什麼樣的看法這是兩個不同的專業領域是 兩個不同的專業領域 但是回歸同一件事情都是年齡的放寬一個是緊縮 一個是放寬我相信平常局他一定有配套措施啊是 我現在想問的是你不能只是相信 因為運安會你是防範未來的專業單位嘛那我現在想要請教說 運安會您專業的看法是什麼他60歲 當初會設60歲的門檻"},{"start":675.97,"end":701.297,"text":"那因為現在是機師的人口缺 人力缺所以他要放寬5歲那這5歲有沒有專業的支撐判斷還是說他有沒有 你應該建議說他要再多做什麼樣的一個檢測還是就是單純的就放寬就放寬了應該不會 他有必要做事 絕對有必要做事能不能了解一下他不會去單純是這樣做 我們可以去了解"},{"start":702.509,"end":726.924,"text":"主委這個是本席就找到的新聞資料他就是直接講交通部你下修檢定年齡到18歲同班高齡駕駛放寬到65歲本席還是站在我相信我們做每一件事情一定都要做過評估但是就是說在這個放寬的過程當初會這樣子規定並且現在的放寬如果說只是因為人力不足而要補這個人力缺口就放寬5歲的話那5歲的標準是什麼"},{"start":731.055,"end":743.485,"text":"那如果說以後人力再不夠 再放寬變10歲變15歲這個部分 越南會是不是能夠也來做掌握跟交通部來做一個了解"},{"start":745.067,"end":763.626,"text":"我們可以開個專案會議來跟他了解一下我還是強調交通沒有最好只有更好我們大家都是在防範未來都是希望把風險降到最低窮盡一切的可能把風險降到最低這是我們共同的使命再拜託主委好嗎好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":50,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時8分）主席謝謝，麻煩請林主委。"],["主席：好，林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，新北三峽發生重大車禍意外，我想國人都非常的難過，但現在最重要的是釐清真相跟還原事實。我們有看到運安會也已經說成立專案小組，並且查扣車輛上面的事故資料紀錄器，到目前為止已經快兩個禮拜過去，在還原整個事實真相上，我們有沒有一個比較新的進度？"],["林主任委員信得：這個案子我們的EDI（所謂的行車電腦）已經開始在解讀，我們跟檢調單位目前在合作，相關的資料都有互通。基於檢調單位偵查不公開的原則，我們目前還是在……因為這個案子，EDI的解讀一般差不多要三、四個禮拜，初步是這樣，因為還要同步……"],["洪委員孟楷：EDI要三、四個禮拜，但對於我們來講，現在國人想要了解的是，到底這件事情是……因為第一時間交通部在第二天馬上就調修了高齡駕車年限的緊縮，從本來的75歲往下修到70歲，一時間大家以為是不是高齡者駕車的問題。但是又看到，他在400公尺內有4次的事故，尤其是一開始的時候，在那個路口有肇事逃逸。所以現在國人大家想問的是，到底他是故意還是過失？是人為的因素還是肇事逃逸？這些部分沒有辦法讓國人有比較清楚明白的了解嗎？主委。"],["林主任委員信得：這個要等我剛剛講的EDI解讀出來之後，還要配合所有的CCTV，還有配合駕駛員的訪談等等，整個一系列的調查還有很多要磨合在一起。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，就是因為有很多，所以國人現在想要了解的是，到底各單位的進度，或是各單位是不是能夠積極辦理，讓國人早日了解真相？3人死亡、12人受傷，這難道不應該重視嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們已經動員整個運安會全會大概15個人力，集中火力在調查這個案子了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以什麼時候？因為以往的運安事故，發生一個月才會公布初步的調查報告。"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在又再推說因為這事可能檢調正在偵辦當中，但我們其實對檢調也有點微詞，因為也有網路上面講，同病房的人好像有聽到這個加害者已經醒過來了，但到目前為止怎麼都還沒有看到做筆錄？當然我相信檢調應該都有派專人在看管這個加害者，只要一清醒，可以做筆錄就應該要做筆錄嘛。但現在重點是，各單位有沒有積極的讓國人了解，還是真的如同陰謀論所講，這個背後可能背景很大，可能是某某某綠營「樁腳」還是怎麼樣，還是跟誰關係好，所以大家想要大事化小，小事化無，有可能嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：這個我沒有聽說。"],["洪委員孟楷：不可能嘛！主委，這不好笑。不是，主委，我們要的是真相。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：要的是還原事實。好，來看一下，今年3月交通部長陳世凱才講，行人走在斑馬線上被車撞死是國恥，所以修法要更嚴厲，但昨天交通部週年記者會卻改口說，行人地獄只是形容詞，見仁見智。我想請教，以主管道安、交安的主管機關這種說法，運安會能夠接受嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們尊重交通部主管機關，因為我們是事故的調查機關，角度是不太一樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以接受說現在行人地獄在臺灣？國外、國際觀光客為什麼會有「行人地獄」這4個字？本席身為中華民國的一份子也覺得很難過，當國外遊客來到臺灣，結果感受到是行人地獄的時候，其實這是一竿子打翻一船人，可是為什麼會有這樣的罵名？不也是過去不論是道路、駕駛人或是相關單位大家的疏忽累積而成？現在說行人地獄只是形容詞、見仁見智，我們的運安會是不是能夠協助，給交通主管機關更強而有力的督促，主委？"],["林主任委員信得：我們這案子調查出來之後，可能會有系統化的風險問題，我們會給交通部建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們調查出來之後，會有系統化的方式給交通部建議？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我請教，剛才我開宗明義就講，三峽案件一發生完之後第一時間，交通部第二天記者會馬上就有講要調修所謂高齡駕車的部分，當然最近也有一連串其他高齡駕駛肇事的狀況，但是針對這個事件初步判斷，感覺跟高齡比較沒有直接的關係。主委對於最近這一連串臺灣社會最近比較多媒體報導的高齡駕車事故，有什麼樣的建議？"],["林主任委員信得：我覺得我們應該跟交通部共同努力，交通部雖然已經在第一時間給國人一個交代，可是這個案子是屬於調查案，調查案的過程我們應該要更加努力，所以我剛才報告我們投入了15個人力，幾乎是排擠掉其他案子了。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重大的案件當然也應該要趕快調查啊！"],["林主任委員信得：是，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：給國人了解事實真相。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：運安會今天是解凍案報告，我每次都講運安會來，我們可以很心平氣和地討論交通的精進、交通的改善，這都是好事，代表沒有事故發生。即便沒有事故發生，我們也要超前部署、防範未然，現在既然事故發生了，我們要的是記取這次教訓，避免下次再犯，所以才要找出這個事件的真實原因究竟是肇事逃逸、是荒唐駕車、是人為因素、是車輛控管不良，還是高齡駕車？這些綜合出來之後，我們才能就政策對症下藥，不是嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是啊，沒有錯，事實上高齡醫學……"],["洪委員孟楷：後續高齡駕駛的一連串事故，運安會會提出相關建議？是不是能夠針對從75歲調降到70歲？但是70歲是換照，他還是有照。那時我們也提過高齡駕駛除了身心的感知以外，可能還有其他部分需要再進一步評估，不是只是單純年齡一分法。"],["林主任委員信得：確實沒有錯，不是只有單純的年齡問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：運安會後續是不是也可以提供專業建議給交通部？因為交通部說3個月內會有配套措施出來，運安會是不是也可以提供，參考其他國外案例，參考國外的制度？"],["林主任委員信得：我想我們應該會提供一些建議給他們。"],["洪委員孟楷：「應該」？"],["林主任委員信得：因為我們分4個分組在調查，包括操作分組、車輛分組、生還因素，還有紀錄器分組，這4個分組在15個人力裡面，我們調查出來之外，還要同步、解讀、訪談，還要什麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我只是請教，那交通部有沒有找運安會開過會了？還沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：目前還沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前還沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：嗯。"],["洪委員孟楷：3個月內他們就要提出來。我覺得運安會是很重要的一個機關，也是獨立自主的機關、調查事故的機關、專業的機關，交通部卻不找來開會，莫名其妙。你們是不是能夠主動問交通部有什麼可以協助的地方，並參與這次調整的政策開會溝通，提供專業意見？"],["林主任委員信得：事實上我們這個案子的專案小組組織分工會議有找他們來開過會，有找他們來，專業組織分工會議他們有來過。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，主委我們講的是兩件事嘛，專案小組是你們組成調查新北市三峽事故，這個是專案小組。但本席現在講交通部因應這個案件之後，調整了高齡駕車的年齡，從75歲變到70歲。他說要做相關配套，但是這個部分跟這件事情，一個是獨立案件，我們要真相，請運安會趕快讓國人知道真相；另一個部分是交通部做出反應，但是這個反應其實並不是這個獨立事件的主要原因，可是交通部還是做了，就是高齡駕車從75歲變成70歲，本席也尊重，因為過去也有一些討論，只是現在一連串事故裡面也有高齡駕車，它可能不是這個獨立案件的主要原因，可是既然要講高齡駕車可能是另一個事件的時候，運安會要提出相關建議啊！不能說這個獨立案件你們沒有找交通部開會，這個高齡駕車的政策你們就放著不管啊！"],["林主任委員信得：不會啦，不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會嘛，你們主動一點，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：因為我們調查重點裡面也會考慮到駕駛行為、考照的體檢制度、吊照的管理制度，這裡面就會涉及高齡問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我最後一個問題請教，這也可能跟您過去的專業有關，因為您過去是民航局副局長。最近也有另外一個年齡的問題，就是機師的人力缺口，所以交通部要修正航空人員檢定給證管理規則，擴大放寬年齡範圍，最低要放寬到18歲，並且最高同航班年齡反而是從不超過60歲，放寬到不超過65歲，所以在另一個航空部分，因為機師有缺口，反而是要放寬年齡級距，從高齡現行60歲的制度多放寬5歲變65歲。所以一方面，路上是要降低年齡限度，從75歲降到70歲就要受相關的換照，可是航空卻是從60歲放寬到65歲。主委，以您的專業判斷，有什麼樣的看法？"],["林主任委員信得：報告委員，這是兩個不同的專業領域，我相信……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，兩個不同的專業領域，但是回歸同一件事情，都是年齡的放寬，一個是緊縮，一個是放寬。"],["林主任委員信得：我相信民航局一定有配套措施。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我想問的是你不能只是相信，因為運安會是防範未然的專業單位嘛！我現在想要請教運安會的專業看法是什麼？當初設了60歲的門檻，因為現在缺機師的人力，所以要放寬5歲，這5歲有沒有專業的支撐判斷，還是你建議應該要多做什麼樣的檢測，還是單純放寬就放寬了？"],["林主任委員信得：應該不會，它應該有配套措施，絕對有配套措施。"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能了解一下？"],["林主任委員信得：它不會單純是這樣做，我們可以去了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，這個是本席找到的新聞資料，就直接講交通部擬下修檢定年齡到18歲，同班高齡駕駛放寬到65歲。我相信我們做每一件事情一定都要做過評估，但是在這個放寬的過程，當初會這樣子規定，並且現在這樣放寬，如果只是因為人力不足，而要補這個人力缺口，就放寬5歲的話，5歲的標準是什麼？如果說以後人力再不夠，再放寬變10歲、變15歲？這部分運安會是不是也能夠掌握，跟交通部了解？"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以開專案會議來了解一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：我還是強調，交通沒有最好，只有更好，我們大家都是在防範未然，都希望把風險降到最低，窮盡一切可能把風險降到最低，這是我們共同的使命，再拜託主委，好嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","現在請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":552,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-13","speakers":["林國成","陳素月","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林俊憲","許智傑","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝女委員好好 主委好"},{"start":16.308,"end":36.64,"text":"我們看下一頁就是作為一個高教領域的學者那我們的研究能力的一個提升還有促進國家的科研發展其實是非常重要的一個工作那我們看到下一面計畫的時候可以看到是好像不是這一頁"},{"start":47.79,"end":71.938,"text":"好 那沒關係我這次跟大家講就是這可能要換檔案喔在這地方我們先看到的是在國科會的這個計畫當中它其實有一個部分就是說它有個填要填主要學歷然後再有最高的學歷再依次來寫那這個情況之下呢這是很重要的部分而且是依照最高學歷依次來寫那就往下看那我們現在就想要請問的是下一頁好"},{"start":78.136,"end":80.464,"text":"這個部分好這個部分"},{"start":81.601,"end":86.964,"text":"我們的助理他應該是換錯檔案那我現在跟大家講的是在這個我想要詢問的是在台北科大的江雅琪教授她過去她101年畢業之後她在102年的時候就開始做這個申請那曾經是有9次的這個申請的這個情形那在申請的這個情形當中呢她在她個人資料這部分她寫的是計畫主持人不同意公開"},{"start":108.556,"end":118.002,"text":"那請問主委因為這個新聞已經有報出來了請問您知道江亞琪教授在她的這樣子的寫國科會計畫申請的時候她寫的這個個人資料部分她的這個內容她的在個人的主要學門的部分她是寫什麼"},{"start":125.795,"end":135.724,"text":"我們學者如果他個資的部分他選擇不公開我們是當然是依照個資法我們是不能公開的對 但是你們後來應該你們在兩年前的時候有做這樣的一個審核了啦這部分我們現在就看到這裡齁他主審辦沒有空過那沒有關係因為之後因為這件事情你們國科會在前年的時候應該也有處理我們往下看齁這部分"},{"start":147.615,"end":156.402,"text":"在後來的情況之下 那就看到是說其實江雅琪教授她本身的學歷是那個證書上面寫的是 她是社會"},{"start":158.069,"end":180.498,"text":"杜倫大學的2012年畢業的這樣的一個士他是社會科學健康學院的哲學博士是他的哲學博士好 但是呢我們後來看到國科會在審查的情況之下因為他一會被人家檢舉那檢舉的時候呢就很清楚的呈現出來是他事實上他寫的是法學院博士法學院的博士"},{"start":181.458,"end":186.26,"text":"那法學院博士的這情況下後來他就被檢舉在台北科大的情況呢他事實上在110年的時候呢有人檢舉到教育部的這個部長信湘就呈現出來是他是因為這個申請到這個光明教育委員會的這個計畫的時候呢被申請認定說是他被揭發不實所以他還被要求說管理費要回來要把他繳回那他也繳回了那我們後來再看到說"},{"start":206.687,"end":214.569,"text":"繼續有人在檢舉之後我們再往下看在這個新聞當中呈現出來是2022年等於說是111年的情況之下呢這個部分他在6月25號的時候稱了北科大的審查認為是有問題的北科大他自稱北科大的審查是有問題的那科技部呢就判他反立功因為他說呢因為已經釐清了那這個地方我們大家還沒有聽到是什麼東西可是到隔一天的時候我們看看是"},{"start":233.775,"end":236.657,"text":"111年的6月26號的時候往下一頁看111年6月26號的時候呢這是你們國科會自己抓的這個媒體的這個報導那報導當中出到這個部分了就是因為他沒有得到就是依照這個"},{"start":249.488,"end":276.966,"text":"研究資料的這個表決來做的時候呢他事實上是三分之二是沒有過但是你們在上面解說了本案雖未達構成違反學術倫理的行為但是呢因為填寫他因為他填的是法學院他不實的這個情勢呢跟填寫實際情況是不符的疏失的所以就發函說應該未來的時候就是應該不要再發生這種情形就再改變可是這出現這樣情況下說你們審查判定未達造假但是卻認定不實這兩個不是"},{"start":280.889,"end":295.464,"text":"我跟委員報告我們國科會如果有違反學術倫理的案件被舉報了國科會一定會組成委員會來討論他是不是有違反學術倫理然後要討論他如何要處置"},{"start":298.206,"end":306.492,"text":"那這個案件在當時就我所知因為這不是我認為辦理的在當時的確進到我們學術倫理委員會那委員根據辦法我們一定要依法行事但是我跟你講這邊部分我們看到往下一看的時候他不實是確定的但是你們再看看他下面的呈現到處是說如果你們看到他們這個規則在講說處理及審議要等於說造假是存在虛構不存在的申請資料跟研究成果等等的"},{"start":328.306,"end":337.193,"text":"可是是不是你們內部在討論的時候我現在只要確定事實上是說他的確有不實嘛對不對因為你們的內容這樣講那我現在只是要跟主委您講的實在是說如果他不實的話當然如果真的達到的話就是輸滅的嫁戒嘛對不對可是你們說因為三分之二沒達到可是你們卻在你們的新聞稿當中提出來這些部分嘛八卦是說他真的是虛假不實所以要他做改變嘛如果他不是如果他是真的那為什麼需要改變需要讓他說以後不要再做這樣的事情"},{"start":357.307,"end":372.831,"text":"是他的確因為他是個人填的他的個人資料是他個人填就好像我個人的履歷都是我自己寫的那我怎麼樣講我的履歷別人其實不太會來關注這個事情是因為他填到國科會的網站上面"},{"start":373.131,"end":391.251,"text":"但是主委我現在跟您問一個問題如果你寫法學院的博士跟你是社會健康學院的博士你在申請相關領域的這樣一個申請的時候你覺得哪一個比較容易被申請到應該就是可以據道應該是法學院吧對這是申請人他個人自己判斷我們是允許"},{"start":391.812,"end":420.894,"text":"我們允許不同領域的人到不同的學門申請計畫這是允許因為有很多跨領域合作的研究是需要不同的學門的人一起來做研究這是允許的但是他宣稱自己從某個學院畢業是他自己要負責是他自己填的那我們在學術倫理委員會我們也討論了但是並沒有到三分之二的委員認為這個已經嚴重到只是希望他要更改"},{"start":422.635,"end":450.435,"text":"這個是疏失我們的委員會這個部分涉及到的是因為他這個部分涉及到的是他的確有這部分就是他有實際上另外的考量這部分制度這部分就是部分需要是要有確實不然不然你寫這個資料就造成說他有甚至你們在說下面的時候可以看到你們自己寫說一向重視學術研究誠信學歷登載不實你們說的喔不但會傷害學者個人生活也可能影響學術資源分配是公正性這就是重點啦學術資源分配的公正性"},{"start":451.255,"end":456.14,"text":"有可能會誤導審查委員會有這個企圖存在所以這地方絕對是要有做一個惡質的動作好這邊我就先到這邊的為止我們現在回到要做的是關於國客會的預算的解凍這部分往下一頁"},{"start":467.779,"end":482.998,"text":"你們為了在國家太空中心這部分呈現出來是說他在第四點要委員關心的事項當中是說太空產值在全球的太空產業佔比能夠偏低那請問一下這個佔比在全世界的產值比例是佔的多少"},{"start":484.861,"end":487.044,"text":"你說目前啊對對對你們自己有偏低這個數據我要請我們太空中心吳主任是請吳主任因為大概現在佔比是比較低大概2到3%2到3%主要原因以前台灣是沒有太空產業這回事"},{"start":500.098,"end":519.23,"text":"好 我們現在先知道 我們從這個基礎往上發展那我們也看到太空產業的發展當中你們就分成四大領域衛星製造 衛星發射 地面設備跟衛星服務這四大領域這是你們寫的 那我們繼續往下看就一個一個來看的時候那我們再看到的是你們在剛才的整個四個領域當中是2773億當中"},{"start":522.032,"end":543.612,"text":"在第三個部分 地面設施的部分 設備這部分你們佔了2464億所以這個平面看起來是說它佔的是比較高超過了應該是有大概九成左右嘛 對不對那九成左右 那其他的三個領域當中是當然就要再講就是它可能有分配88%啦那其他三種的發展就是應該極速的要加強 對不對"},{"start":546.531,"end":551.456,"text":"我們都要發展 但是因為地面設備的部分量是最大的所以它的佔比會 將來的產值 佔比會最高這部分我看到 再繼續看到衛星製造這一部分那我們現在是有一個就是你們有說到新創追星計畫這一部分"},{"start":563.647,"end":567.23,"text":"它這個有些衛星的關鍵元件要去製造那自製率因為你們把所謂的太空的這個計畫把它自組衛星計畫的自組是當作很重要的一個目標嘛那現在的關鍵元件自組率現在自製率是攢到95%的那請問大概預計什麼時候會到達100%"},{"start":583.223,"end":604.597,"text":"有沒有這樣的規劃預計自己的目標設定我們其實要跟國際合作不見得要到百分之百有很多關鍵的零組件跟我們友善的國家一個合作的關係反而會創造我們更多的市場所以我們在策略上不要變成是一個獨佔但是我們現在目標當然是希望能夠達到八九十%"},{"start":605.958,"end":626.272,"text":"這樣的這個自治率那跟一個友好的國家我們要維持一個很好的這個合作的關係那將來才有辦法讓我們可以使用到很多的衛星的這個頻寬因為我們自己做了這個花錢我們自己做的完整的衛星的數量不會太多政府的資源有限希望將來扶持產業的發展讓我們"},{"start":629.594,"end":653.359,"text":"你們用你們策略性的考量就對了啦對有策略性的考量好那我們繼續往下看因為還有其他提醒要問我們那我們繼續往下看那衛星發射這是我們現在的重點啦你們在報告上都寫照是說要規劃在2000公斤的這個一個籌債的任務一個需求那這個部分因為目前我們現在看微衛星那你們現在包括了福衛的這個8號通通都是大概400多公斤嘛那你們400公斤左右你們都是透過跟國際間的這個發射到卡納維爾角這部分"},{"start":656.96,"end":681.52,"text":"那大概何時遇到到兩千公斤的這部分,因為需要有目標的規劃兩百公斤的規範我們現在福衛八號預計今年十月要發射,大概有四百公斤沒錯可是我們現在是自主的一個發射能力啊,這很重要啊自主發射能力,火箭的部分我們目標是兩百,因為是要發射那個通信衛星通信衛星跟現在福衛八號它是主要是遙測"},{"start":682.881,"end":691.043,"text":"那什麼時候要達成?預計什麼時候完成?有沒有目標當中一個目標?你說那個200公斤的那個入軌火箭的部分嗎?對,入軌火箭目前預計到自主發射10年我們從去年開始算就是到20342034年因為現在還要建置還要建置這個發射廠然後我們那個火箭"},{"start":711.508,"end":722.754,"text":"火箭的這個研究的大樓也是才開始要蓋所以因為這個預算的編列就是限制我們沒有辦法一下的確的確我們剛才看到這邊其實還有很大的發展空間那我們繼續往下看你剛才講到那個發射的這個場地場域的部分我們看到這部分"},{"start":729.497,"end":751.756,"text":"今年的時候你們已經也做了一個新聞媒體的記者會是說新聞稿要呈現出來3月26號說的已經確定的是在兩個一個台東一個在屏東的滿洲鄉的情況之下那因為它本身有需要很多的這個場址上面有些條件要符合那其中你們提到的是說在"},{"start":753.297,"end":778.547,"text":"南台南田部落當中有一個選址就是有這個部落的一個有同意這個部分有達成這個部分可是現在問題你們你們只知道這一部分那我想問的是說請問在屏東你們現在選定的這個屏東縣的九鵬村這部分的確定的這個什麼宮廷這個地方的這個宮廷會有沒有做有沒有做有全部都有做我們在九鵬村也一樣共識已經達成了嗎當地民眾也是六到七成同意"},{"start":782.449,"end":787.652,"text":"其實有超過七成那請問在什麼時候因為你們在剛剛的這個報告當中並沒有你們只寫到南田部落你們沒有寫那所以請問一下南田部落是我們最後選址的兩個最後的這個場址之一那我其實我也公開的講我們將來在這個火箭發射場的規劃建置其實不是只有發射場我們會搭配我們的太空科技博物館太空科技教育館那兩個地方都會有兩個地方都會有"},{"start":812.524,"end":833.109,"text":"兩個地方都有但是你現在是說屏東九鵬村的滿洲鄉的九鵬村已經是確定的已經確定那是發射場發射場將來還有這個我剛提到的博物館跟交易館那還有這個各種各樣的這個結合當地生態旅遊的這個規劃這我知道你們兩個地方我們都會規劃是很好那我現在是說你們確定那請問九鵬村的這個宮廳會是什麼時候舉行的"},{"start":840.287,"end":858.296,"text":"那都已經結束啦 都已經同意啦可是你們那邊沒有寫齁所以我想說確定日期因為這個1月4號的在南田部落這邊是有的但是這邊在報告當中是沒有呈現出來所以懷疑是不是沒有做是 是 都完成了那這個是不是把時間到時候請太空 請那個發射的部分屬於這部分來跟來把資料提供出來好"},{"start":860.817,"end":863.201,"text":"好 謝謝 那繼續往下看另外更重要的是說包括有這個後續的敏感這個環境敏感地區的部分還有這個居民的餘裕的部分我希望在環評這部分也做了嗎"},{"start":873.023,"end":889.435,"text":"環境影響評估是後續要進行因為要選址確定以後我們馬上就要進行所以一定會依照法令一定會做的跟當地的生態保育團體甚至當地村民還有鄉民我們甚至全部都會去溝通"},{"start":898.121,"end":921.108,"text":"這邊就到此,再跟主席借大概半分鐘就好了我們繼續往下看,在這裡清除科學園區它其實佔到蠻大的一個費用那往下看的時候,就是說凍結百分之三十的部分你們提到的項目類別有六項,這六項當中你們事實上對於未明就並沒有具體的明列它的這個細項的部分我們繼續再往下看的時候,可以看到是說"},{"start":922.768,"end":929.493,"text":"成果有講,那未來要做什麼?你看竹科的新竹園區的擴建,榮台園區的擴建,請問擴建是屬於在業務費當中嗎?我請我們接下來馬上要上任的新的局長擴建一開始是在我們建管組業務費裡面的規劃"},{"start":944.281,"end":946.564,"text":"所以它事實上真的是業務費擴建這部分好那請問一下在生物VO這個生物跟這個資通產業的整合編列的產業也是放在它的這個發展也是放在業務費是嗎是的它這是一個補助的計畫好"},{"start":960.141,"end":981.04,"text":"還有人才培訓的計畫好 那這個地方我希望還是看到有時候KPI的部分就是到底想要達到什麼一個效果成果等等因為你們這邊在報告當中都沒有寫反而是花很多時間在過去的可是最重要是凍結預算要把它解重的話最重要是要看到未來你們做到什麼東西可是這邊沒有呈現出來我想應該把它補充是不是在大概兩個禮拜就呈現出來你們這個這個目標的KPI呈現好 順道辦理好 謝謝那就謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（10時3分）有請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委備質詢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：劉委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：主委好。作為一個高教領域的學者，我們的研究能力提升還有促進國家科研發展其實是非常重要的一個工作，這部分我們看到的是，在申請國科會計畫時，有一個「個人資料表」要填主要學歷，由最高學歷依次來寫，這是很重要的部分，而且是依照最高學歷依次來寫。","我現在想要請問的是，臺北科大的江雅綺教授過去在101年畢業之後，102年就開始做這個申請，曾經有9次的申請，在申請的情形當中，他在個人資料這部分寫的是：計畫主持人不同意公開。請問主委，這個新聞已經有報出來了，請問你知道江雅綺教授提出國科會計畫申請的時候，他在個人資料內容部分的主要學門是寫什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果學者的個資部分選擇不公開，依照個資法，我們是不能公開的。"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是你們在兩年前有做這樣的一個審核了啦，我們現在就看到這裡，他主持的部分沒有通過。沒有關係，這件事情國科會在前年的時候應該也有處理，後來我們看到的是，其實江雅綺教授本身的學歷，就是證書上面寫的是杜倫大學2012年畢業的社會科學與健康學院哲學博士。但是我們後來看到國科會的審查情況，因為他有被人家檢舉，檢舉的時候就很清楚地呈現出來，事實上他寫的是法學院博士，因此他就被檢舉，110年他在北科大的時候有人檢舉到教育部的部長信箱，呈現出來的是，他在申請公平交易委員會計畫的時候被揭發不實，所以他還被要求管理費要繳回，那他也繳回了。","後來繼續有人在檢舉，我們再往下看，在新聞當中呈現出來是，他在2022年（111年）6月25號自稱北科大的審查是有問題的，科技部判定還他公道，他說已經釐清了，這個地方大家還不知道是什麼東西。可是隔一天，在111年6月26號國科會自己發的媒體報導，報導當中提到在針對研究資料造假進行審查、表決的時候，表決結果未達三分之二通過門檻，但是你們在上面寫，本案雖未達構成違反學術倫理的行為，但是他不實填寫法學院的情事，填寫內容跟實際情況不符、有疏失，所以發函當事人未來應該不要再發生這種情形、要改變。所以這裡出現的情況是，你們審查判定未達造假，但是卻認定不實，這兩個部分……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，我跟委員報告，如果有違反學術倫理的案件被舉報了，國科會一定會組成委員會來討論他是不是有違反學術倫理，然後討論要如何處置。這個案件就我所知，因為這不是我任內辦理的，在當時的確進到我們學術倫理委員會……"],["劉委員書彬：我知道，三分之二嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，根據辦法我們一定要依法行事。"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是我跟你講，我們往下看，他不實是確定的，但是我們再來看看，依據「國家科學及技術委員會學術倫理案件處理及審議要點」的規定，造假是虛構不存在之申請資料、研究資料或研究成果。可是你們內部在討論的時候……我現在只要確定他的確有不實嘛，對不對？因為你們的內容是這樣講。我現在要跟主委講的是，如果他不實的話，真的達到就是書面告誡，對不對？雖然你們說三分之二沒達到，可是你們卻在你們的新聞稿當中也提出來這些部分，包括他真的是虛假不實，所以要他做改變。如果他是真的，為什麼需要改變、需要請他以後不要再做這件事情？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，因為他的個人資料是他個人填的，就好像我個人的履歷都是我自己寫的，我怎麼樣講我的履歷，別人其實不太會來關注，而這件事情是因為他填到國科會的網站上面。"],["劉委員書彬：但是主委，我現在問你一個問題，如果你寫法學院的博士跟你寫社會科學與健康學院的博士比較，在申請相關領域的時候，你覺得哪一個比較容易會申請到？應該可以確定是法學院吧，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，這是申請人個人自己判斷，我們允許不同領域的人到不同的學門申請計畫，這是允許的，因為有很多跨領域合作的研究需要不同學門的人一起來做研究，這是允許的，但是他宣稱自己從某個學院畢業，是他自己要負責，因為是他自己填的，我們在學術倫理委員會也討論了，但是並沒有到三分之二的委員認為這個已經嚴重到……"],["劉委員書彬：但是你們有書面告誡，我現在要……"],["吳主任委員誠文：只是希望他要更改，這個是疏失，我們的委員會……"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，這個部分涉及到……他實際上有另外的考量……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，的確有這件事……"],["劉委員書彬：制度上這部分希望要確實，不然你寫這個資料會造成……我們有看到你們自己下面寫「一向重視學術研究誠信，而學歷登載不實，不但斲傷學者個人之學術聲譽，亦可能影響學術資源分配之公正性」，這是你們說的，而這就是重點！學術資源分配的公正性，對吧？會影響到別人。"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能啦！有可能會誤導審查委員。"],["劉委員書彬：是的，他有這個企圖存在，所以這地方絕對要做一個遏止的動作。","我就先到這邊為止，我們現在回到關於國科會的預算解凍這部分。你們國科會在國家太空中心這部分，委員關心議題第四點當中說的太空產值在全球太空產業占比仍偏低，請問一下，這個占比在全世界的產值比例是多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你說目前嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：對，你們這個數據偏低嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請太空中心吳主任來回答。"],["劉委員書彬：是，請吳主任。"],["吳主任宗信：現在占比大概是比較低，大概2%到3%，主要原因是因為以前臺灣沒有太空產業這回事，沒有投資。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我們現在知道你們從這個基礎往上發展。我們也看到關於太空產業的發展，你們分成四大領域，衛星製造、衛星發射、地面設備跟衛星服務這四大領域，這是你們寫的，我們就一個一個來看，整個四個領域的產值是2,773億，第三個的地面設備這部分占了2,464億，所以看起來它占的比較高，88%，大概有九成左右嘛，對不對？那其他三個領域的分配，其他三種的發展應該要急速加強，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們都要發展，但是因為地面設備的部分，量是最大的，所以它的占比、將來的產出占比會最高……"],["劉委員書彬：好，我們繼續往下看到衛星製造這部分，你們現在有一個新創追星計畫，有些衛星的關鍵元件要製造，因為你們要自主掌握衛星關鍵零組件，是很重要的一個目標，現在的關鍵元件項目自製率達到95%，請問大概預計什麼時候達到100%？有沒有這樣的一個規劃？預計自己的目標設定。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們要跟國際合作，其實不見得要到100%，有很多關鍵的零組件，跟我們友善的國家形成一個合作的關係反而會創造我們更多的市場，所以我們的策略上不要變成是一個獨占，我們現在的目標當然是希望能夠達到80%、90%的自製率，我們要跟友好的國家維持一個很好的合作關係，將來我們才有辦法使用到很多衛星的頻寬，因為我們自己花錢做的完整的衛星數量不會太多，政府的資源有限，希望將來扶植產業的發展，讓我們靠產業……"],["劉委員書彬：你們有策略性的考量就對了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，有策略性的考量。"],["劉委員書彬：因為還有其他部分，我們繼續往下看。衛星發射是我們現在的重點，你們在報告當中寫到要規劃先大概以200公斤酬載任務需求，目前我們現在看到有微衛星，包括福衛八號通通都是大概四百多公斤左右，你們都是透過跟國際間合作發射到卡納維拉角，預計何時到200公斤的酬載？因為需要有目標的規劃。"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在福衛八號預計今年10月要發射，大概有400公斤。"],["劉委員書彬：對，沒錯。"],["吳主任委員誠文：將來更……"],["劉委員書彬：可是我們現在是要自主的發射能力，這很重要。"],["吳主任委員誠文：自主發射的能力，關於火箭的部分，我們目標是200，因為是要發射通訊衛星，通訊衛星跟福衛八號主要是遙測，是非常大的相機……"],["劉委員書彬：什麼時候要達成？預計什麼時候完成？有沒有一個目標？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你說那個……"],["劉委員書彬：200公斤的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：入軌火箭的部分嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：對，入軌火箭。"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前預計到自主發射要10年嘛。"],["劉委員書彬：10年？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們從去年開始算，就是到2034年。"],["劉委員書彬：2034年？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為現在還要建置發射場。"],["劉委員書彬：對，沒錯。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們研究火箭的大樓也才開始要蓋，因為預算的編列限制我們沒有辦法一下就……"],["劉委員書彬：的確，我們剛才看到這邊還有很大的發展空間。我們繼續往下看，你剛才講到發射場域的部分，今年你們有一個新聞媒體的記者會，3月26號的新聞稿已經確定在兩個地方，一個在臺東，一個在屏東滿州鄉，因為這個場址本身有些條件要符合，其中你們提到南田部落的選址，部落同意這個部分有達成，可是我們想要問的是，你們現在選定屏東縣九棚村的公聽會有沒有做？有沒有共識？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，全部都有做，我們在九棚村也一樣……"],["劉委員書彬：共識已經達成了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當地民眾其實有超過七成同意……"],["劉委員書彬：請問是在什麼時候？因為你們在剛剛的報告當中並沒有提到，你們只寫到南田部落，你們沒有寫到九棚村，所以請問一下……"],["吳主任委員誠文：南田部落是我們選址最後的兩個場址之一，我也公開的講我們將來在火箭發射場的規劃建置，其實不是只有發射場，我們會搭配我們的太空科技博物館、太空科技教育館……"],["劉委員書彬：對，你們還有觀光作用。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那兩個地方都會有。"],["劉委員書彬：兩個地方有，但是你現在寫的是屏東滿州鄉九棚村是已經確定的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經確定，那是發射場，將來還有我剛剛提到的博物館跟教育館，還有各種各樣結合當地生態旅遊的規劃，兩個地方我們都會規劃。"],["劉委員書彬：是，很好，你們現在確定了，那請問九棚村的公聽會是什麼時候舉行的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那都已經結束了，都已經同意了。"],["劉委員書彬：可是你們這邊沒有寫，所以我想說要確定日期，因為1月4號在南田部落這邊是有的，但九棚村在報告當中沒有呈現出來，所以懷疑是不是沒有做。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，都完成了。"],["劉委員書彬：那是不是請國家太空中心把相關時間的資料提供出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。繼續往下看，另外更重要的是包括後續的環境敏感地區還有居民疑慮的部分，請問環評這部分也做了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個環境影響評估……"],["劉委員書彬：你們是說後續要進行。"],["吳主任委員誠文：環境影響評估是後續要進行，因為要選址確定以後，我們馬上就要進行，依照法令我們一定會做，跟當地的生態保育團體，甚至當地村民還有鄉民，我們全部都會去溝通。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這邊先到此為止。再跟主席借大概半分鐘就好了，我們繼續往下看，新竹科學園區其實占了一個蠻大的費用，在凍結30%的專案報告中，你們提到了項目類別有6項，可是這6項當中，你們事實上並沒有具體明列細項的部分，我們可以在成果看到，未來竹科管理局要推動新竹園區的擴建、龍潭園區的擴建，請問擴建是在業務費當中嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請接下來馬上要上任的新的局長來報告。"],["胡副局長世民：擴建一開始是在我們建管組業務費裡面的規劃。"],["劉委員書彬：所以它事實上擴建這部分真的是在業務費中？"],["胡副局長世民：對。"],["劉委員書彬：好。請問一下，生物資通Bio+ICT產業的整合編列發展也是放在業務費，是嗎？"],["胡副局長世民：是的，這是一個補助的計畫，還有人才培訓的計畫。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這個地方我希望還是能看到KPI，就是你們到底想要達到什麼效果、成果等等，因為你們在報告當中都沒有寫，反而是花很多時間在說明過去的部分，可是要解凍預算的話，最重要是要看到未來你們能做到什麼東西，可是這邊沒有呈現出來，我想應該予以補充，是不是大概兩個禮拜能呈現出來你們這個目標的KPI？"],["胡副局長世民：好，遵照辦理。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來，我們在陳秀寳委員之後休息5分鐘。","我們接下來有請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162076","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162076","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1b3a459b190bbc1531219069fb8f2289f0b07ac742f6d2320141228277b1494e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:47:00 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這個使用核能真的不應該被汙名化黃蘭胥也是這樣講 所以我想大家真的不要害怕那我們也其實看到啦 其實你自己就講了其實真的不需要去這個一定說只能支持誰的說法好不好不是說講到核電就只能支持賴總統的說法你可以支持你自己的說法 那你支不支持你自己的說法"},{"start":206.04,"end":234.745,"text":"專家應該要回來研究新核能技術 支持吧當然支持可以支持嘛我公開的講很好 那我想請教你怎麼鼓勵啊要編多少經費 要吸引多少人才我們其實啊 明年的這個預算會增加但是就是 我現在就是不知道沒關係 你先照你的計畫講嘛我們也可以一起來爭取啊 對不對你不能說 欸 財劃法這樣這個可能會發生的事情我們哪些事情就做不到"},{"start":235.505,"end":258.419,"text":"現在還沒啊 還沒刪啊 也還沒砍啊好不好 我們來預期一下嘛所以你預期要增加多少要吸引多少人才新核能 這是吳祖瑞講的是 新核能 我們談的新核能最主要就是現在國際上積極在發展的SMR多少 多少人 多少經費對不起 我時間有限"},{"start":259.987,"end":268.612,"text":"現在還沒有確定不是已經在編了嗎你剛剛跟我說已經在編然後又要來趁機講一下說裁劃法那現在到底要編多少預計編多少編了沒其實是不是還沒啊已經規劃了但是我們不見得有辦法提到行政院因為現在因為裁劃法我們一起來努力啊我願望就是如果我明年可以編到1800億的話那是要多少"},{"start":289.927,"end":306.184,"text":"這個至少要明年至少要變五億五億是不是?對就我們現有的新核能嘛新核能這個當然一則以喜一則以憂啦因為過去三年國客會投入SMR的這個經費只有1700萬"},{"start":310.192,"end":331.845,"text":"這個我是不知道哪裡可以買得起一棟房子然後我們投入在新和能但是當然我覺得我們現在到五億有增加了但是事實上全世界這個條件就是明年的這個預算在財化法修正案我還沒有對不起主委我還沒有請您發言我都知道好不好我們一起來努力嘛"},{"start":332.705,"end":354.935,"text":"我們看到美國的企業投入的是100億台幣起跳喔有到600億台幣當然我們不能跟企業相比啦但是我還是希望我們未來5億我們一起來努力看不管什麼樣的條件能源真的太重要了沒有能源我們沒有AI啦所以我想希望都不要受到影響那另外我也想請教你一下這個供電量的穩定度因為你們說這個多元發電啊"},{"start":361.078,"end":378.106,"text":"沒有核電也可以有AI這是你剛剛的說法那我們來看一下其實每個科學園區核定用電量跟實際發電量實際的用電量其實都有很大的差距都有很大的差距有的甚至只用到一半而已"},{"start":379.349,"end":391.153,"text":"那看起來電很夠啊那可是我們看台電近日的供應狀況有這個什麼彰化23號停電啦鹽城18號停電啦中壢24號停電巴黎25 26號都停電啦我想請教一下主委過去有沒有發生過台電跟園館局說因為有供電的這個狀況要請園區降低用電量或者是園館處為了配合台電的要求"},{"start":406.677,"end":417.305,"text":"請廠商降低用電量的情勢有沒有發生過這樣的事情有還是沒有過去沒有過去完全沒有過去完全沒有沒有"},{"start":418.191,"end":441.167,"text":"那为什么我们现在在园区还看到一堆什么节电计划啦为什么还要去搞这个光电板没关系未来可能有啦为什么因为当然嘛但是你还有那么多电嘛但没有关系我们说未来AI产业进入很可能会发生缺电的状况国会会可能还是要做好准备未来"},{"start":442.108,"end":457.313,"text":"怎麼去因應可能AI的電量會指數型的成長作為園區的大家長希望能夠讓大家對台灣的用電有信心如果這麼有信心那你覺得為什麼大家都在敦促台灣要有核電啊你覺得為什麼啊"},{"start":458.829,"end":471.8,"text":"三三會黃仁勛台達電董事長大家是愛合愛到怎麼了嗎你覺得為什麼會這樣啊我們很夠啊我們很夠啊你說沒有缺電啊以後AI來了也不會缺電啊他們搞錯了是不是"},{"start":472.974,"end":494.857,"text":"大家看到台灣產業發展非常的好當然也是很期待說我們會發展的更好所以未來的用電量會提升我們經濟部也很努力經濟部也跟我們國會來保證未來園區的用電是按照我們的規劃是可以供給的其實就是要面向未來而且要"},{"start":496.478,"end":508.244,"text":"這個料敵先機嘛你要知道未來可能還會用更多啦你不能說我覺得未來可以我就躺著不幹嘛所以我們來看新的園區擴建剛剛有提到其實你們瞄準的是2050年嘛那2050年我們經濟部長只說2032年可能夠啊"},{"start":513.487,"end":533.782,"text":"那外界很多不同看法我們就不說啦可是要到2050年要夠我們可能要做很多前期的基礎建設啊是有沒有考慮過用SMR在園區裡面早一點來研究試驗或預留空間有沒有考慮過我們當然如果經費許可的話我們一定會投入研究這沒有問題"},{"start":535.154,"end":555.711,"text":"所以我想也希望去研究一下在園區裡面為什麼這幾天猶他州開始在討論我們賴總統雖然說核能還沒 新核能還沒準備好但是全世界跑得比他腦海裡想得還快啦2026年很可能就要做一個上百到上千個SMR的一個聯合發電的一個做法"},{"start":557.492,"end":570.662,"text":"所以我希望主委作為台灣在科研上面在園區上面的指導應該要這個料敵制勝要能夠先往前看先往前做可不可以了解一下好不好好沒問題我們研究"},{"start":573.564,"end":587.45,"text":"最重要的就是要確保未來的新核能它是安全核廢料處理能夠讓民眾放心主委不用幫賴總統廣告我們都知道不會有任何一個科學家要做一個危險的核能"},{"start":588.55,"end":609.058,"text":"我根本不用講嘛過去的核電我跟委員報告過去核電的確是不安全的確是很可能因為人為的疏失會產生爐心溶解這個事過去曾經有這種可能性存在所以未來我們要確保這個事不會發生所以我要投入研究是這個目的主委"},{"start":613.521,"end":635.541,"text":"主委 這個代理主席 我跟你借一點時間我覺得主委 你這樣的一個做法我不是非常的能夠理解有沒有小行星曾經爆炸過有沒有小行星曾經爆炸過這個我沒有研究過有沒有恆星會消失"},{"start":637.924,"end":645.596,"text":"這是common sense恆星時間到了它就會消失那我們地球人是不是要很緊張啊"},{"start":647.56,"end":667.921,"text":"我們生活的環境是不是很危險啊我覺得主委你不能這樣子去講危險性啊你剛剛的論點完全違背了國際對於人員現在的主流討論耶你現在去點出就像你剛剛去講啊哇 我們這個預算可能會有這樣的刪除所以哪些哪些事情都做不到"},{"start":668.502,"end":684.828,"text":"我覺得不要用負面的陳述來創造一個緊張的氛圍我們科學家是盡力以社會良善的未來在做努力這一點我言盡致詞我希望您好好的報告員可以讓我講嗎感受一下"},{"start":686.428,"end":709.333,"text":"國際SMR的研究前提也是要確保安全核非要處理可以減費我剛剛都認同我說不會有科學家去做不安全的核能發展但您剛剛想要跟全台灣跟全世界的人民強調所有的核電廠都可能發生爐心溶解這是你作為科學家在這裡歷史上已經發生好幾次了"},{"start":713.035,"end":716.218,"text":"歷史上也發生過很多滅絕事件啊我們需要在這裡去討論這些事情嗎你看 缺電啊主委 缺電啊"},{"start":727.028,"end":736.093,"text":"所以你看我不能說燈光這沒了台灣明天要停電了我不會這樣講好不好主委我想我們我今天時間有限我還有幾個問題要就教於您好不好我覺得我們希望能夠正向我們不要用這種負面的論述來讓大家感到緊張我非常正向剛剛委員說我講的那句話我是很正向的很正向說我邀請我們的"},{"start":753.323,"end":766.571,"text":"核能領域的專家回來研究我是很正向的我不是在講資訊沒有關係主委謝謝你我支持核能的專家要回來千萬不能流失最後有幾個點我想問我還是要感謝主委還有狗哥會的同仁把智慧機器人人型機器人納入到未來可能百億的計畫當中但是我們看到主委您"},{"start":778.098,"end":794.374,"text":"有一個這個說法蠻特別的你說這個智慧機器人所有人形四隻腳的翅膀型的水下的都可以算是這個機器人這個百億的範圍這會不會有點大我想請教一下那特斯拉算不算機器人"},{"start":795.815,"end":819.928,"text":"自駕車如果是我們講autonomous 那自主型的 那當然是機器人那無人機是不是機器人無人機現在還不是 但是未來它是自主的 自主的無人機 它也是一個機器人那到底有什麼東西不算機器人我們講機器人是我們把它翻成中文有個人 那那個掃地機器人也是機器人也是啊 那我們現在2025年幹嘛要去弄一個這個東西呢"},{"start":821.148,"end":849.274,"text":"現在那我只問你一個問題謝謝主委人型機器人在你這百億裡面你打算要佔幾%我們沒有設定沒有設定那你會不會那所以表示有可能一百億台灣一百億人這個機器人的計畫投入金率全部做掃地機器人也有可能對不對不可能啦所以依照社會需求產業發展比例你總有個規劃吧所以我問您說人型機器人的比例會是多少有沒有預計"},{"start":850.174,"end":867.172,"text":"我不能預期我們的學者做研究會做哪一番我們是學術自由我怎麼可能限定那個比例不是 您要規劃啊否則你一百億下去你會不會到最後人形機器人根本沒有案件收不到我規劃有非常重要的原則就是這是智慧機器人就是AI來領導"},{"start":869.734,"end":883.831,"text":"對人類的服務它是一個重要的工具用各種型態的硬體表現出來都可以主要是有社會需求能夠幫助人類我們都發展主委我只是想跟您溝通現在全世界在討論的是人型機器人黃仁勛Elon Musk說未來會有100億台的人型機器人"},{"start":889.597,"end":909.148,"text":"我們如果走錯方向我們現在還在投資過去20年已經存在的這些既有的東西我們很可能會選錯邊選錯路報告委員你秀的這個照片在擂台上打鬥這種不是我的目標我的目標是要幫助人類好好的生活"},{"start":909.488,"end":937.72,"text":"我是要展現他的技術主委您搞錯我意思了我們希望技術比他好我是要展現他的平衡的技術我是要展現他可以跑動的技術我是要跟主委表示這是現在這個世界上已經存在的人型機器人平衡是小腦我們要研究是大腦為主這是最重要的小腦的部分台灣的產業界在零組件供應都已經供應出去了我們有能力現在最缺的是大腦是AI"},{"start":939.574,"end":958.508,"text":"所以您現在好沒有關係我們未來就是希望我們的百億機器人裡面有很明確的規劃到底有多少是這個掃地機器人的大腦有多少是人型機器人的大腦我們希望可以看到更仔細的規劃我們再來一起支持好不好謝謝主委謝謝委員好謝謝葛委員那請官員跟主委回答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時47分）謝謝代理主席，有請吳誠文主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛召委好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。昨天三三會的林董說普天之下最大的笑話是有人說「臺灣不缺電，但是會停電」，他同時也說要發展AI沒核電不行，主委你怎麼看他這種說法？你支持嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我並不認為沒有核電不行，但是我們當然需要能源，各種各樣的能源我們都會去探討。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以產業界覺得沒有核電不行，但是主委您的意思是可以沒有核電，我們還是可以發展AI，跟全天下的想法都不一樣，對不對？你知道現在全世界為了發展AI都在蓋核電嗎？你知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：並不是每個國家都在發展，但是我們現在……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以你是說哥倫比亞共和國沒有就是沒有嗎？不是這樣講吧！主要發展AI的國家……"],["吳主任委員誠文：主要發展AI的國家一定是多元的能源都會探討，我們也不是說核電不能探討，其實我們也是在探討當中。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，所以我想不排除核能嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不排除，只要符合安全還有核廢料處理……"],["葛委員如鈞：這不用複述了，我們都知道賴清德三原則，謝謝主委。我還是要鼓勵國科會，黃仁勳在演講當中也確實有說要蓋AI基礎設施，為什麼我剛剛一來就希望主委能夠表達您的意見，主要是因為很多人真的覺得沒有電就沒有AI，黃仁勳也說臺灣絕對要投資核能，他也有說絕對要投資核能啊！您的看法如何？認不認同他這句話──臺灣絕對要投資核能，認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：大家都可以表達意見，臺灣現在還是一個……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以你認不認同？對不起，我只想要問你認不認同？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同賴總統講的。"],["葛委員如鈞：哇！主委，您是一個專業的科學政務官，對於科學的論述，到了這裡您都還要選擇性的來閃避、逃避……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有閃避，報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：我還是覺得非常可惜啊！黃仁勳的說法……不過沒有關係……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，賴總統明確表達是可以討論的，我們科學的證據……"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛，這其實是有共識的，為什麼你不能說你不反對黃仁勳的說法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，現在……"],["葛委員如鈞：黃仁勳只是說絕對要投資核能，這有問題嗎？好，沒有關係。使用核能真的不應該被污名化，黃仁勳也是這樣講，所以大家真的不要害怕。我們也看到，其實你自己就講了，真的不需要一定只能支持誰的說法，好不好？不是說講到核電，就只能支持賴總統的說法，你可以支持你自己的說法……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：那你支不支持你自己的說法，專家應該回來研究新核能技術，支持吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：可以支持嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我公開地講，我當然支持。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好！那我想請教你怎麼鼓勵，要編多少經費、吸引多少人才？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們明年的預算會增加，但是我就是現在不知道我們財劃法修正案……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，你先照你的計畫講，我們也可以一起來爭取，對不對？你不能說財劃法這樣，可能會發生什麼事情，我們哪些事情就做不到，現在還沒刪，也還沒砍，好不好？我們來預期一下，所以你預期要增加多少？要吸引多少人才？新核能，這是吳主委講的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們談的新核能最主要就是現在國際上積極在發展的SMR……"],["葛委員如鈞：多少人？多少經費？對不起，我時間有限。"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在還沒有確定，因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：不是已經在編了嗎？你剛剛跟我說已經在編，然後又要乘機講一下什麼財劃法，現在到底要編多少？預計編多少？編了沒？是不是還沒啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經規劃了，但是我們不見得有辦法提到行政院，現在因為財劃法修正案……"],["葛委員如鈞：願望嘛！我們一起來努力。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的願望就是如果我們明年可以編到1,800億的話……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，那是要多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年至少要編5億。"],["葛委員如鈞：5億，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：事實上……"],["吳主任委員誠文：就我們現有的……"],["葛委員如鈞：新核能嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，新核能。"],["葛委員如鈞：新核能，好。當然，一則以喜，一則以憂，因為過去3年國科會投入SMR的經費只有1,700萬，我是不知道哪裡可以買得起一棟房子，以我們投入在新核能的經費來講，我覺得現在到5億，有增加了，但是事實上全世界……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個條件就是明年的預算如果被財劃法修正案影響到，我就沒有辦法。"],["葛委員如鈞：我還沒有請您發言，我都知道，好不好？我們一起來努力。我們看到美國的企業投入的是100億臺幣起跳，也有到600億臺幣，當然，我們不能跟企業相比，但是我還是希望未來5億我們一起來努力，不管什麼樣的條件，能源真的太重要了，沒有能源就沒有AI，希望都不要受到影響。","另外，我也想請教你供電量的穩定度，因為你們說多元發電、沒有核電也可以有AI，這是你剛剛的說法。我們來看一下，其實每個科學園區核定用電量跟實際發電量、實際的用電量都有很大的差距，有的甚至只用到一半而已。看起來電很夠，可是我們看台電近日的供應狀況，有彰化23日停電、鹽埕18日停電、中壢24日停電、八里25日及26日都停電。我想請教一下主委，過去有沒有發生過台電跟園管局說，因為有供電的狀況，要請園區降低用電量，或者是園管局為了配合台電，請廠商降低用電量的情事？有沒有發生過這樣的事情？有還是沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：過去沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：過去完全沒有？過去完全沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：那為什麼我們現在在園區還看到一堆什麼節電計畫？為什麼還要搞光電板？沒關係。未來可能有，為什麼？因為……"],["吳主任委員誠文：節能是大家都要做的。"],["葛委員如鈞：當然，但是你還有那麼多電，沒有關係。我們說未來AI產業進駐很可能會發生缺電的狀況，國科會可能還是要做好準備，未來怎麼去因應可能AI需求的電量會有指數型的成長？作為園區的大家長，希望能夠讓大家對臺灣的用電有信心。如果這麼有信心，你覺得為什麼大家都在敦促臺灣要有核電？你覺得為什麼？三三會、黃仁勳、台達電董事長，大家是愛核愛到怎麼了嗎？你覺得為什麼會這樣？我們很夠，你說沒有缺電，以後AI來了也不會缺電，他們搞錯了，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有，大家看到臺灣產業發展非常地好，當然也是很期待我們會發展得更好，所以未來的用電量會提升……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯。"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟部也很努力，經濟部也跟我們國科會保證，未來園區的用電按照我們的規劃是可以供給的。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，其實就是要面向未來，而且要料敵機先，要知道未來可能還會用更多，不能說覺得未來可以就躺著不幹。所以我們來看新的園區擴建，剛剛有提到，其實你們瞄準的是2050年嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們經濟部部長只說2032年可能夠，外界有很多不同看法，我們就不說了。可是到2050年要夠，我們可能要做很多前期的基礎建設……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有考慮過用SMR在園區裡面早一點來研究、試驗或預留空間？有沒有考慮過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然，如果經費許可的話，我們一定會投入研究，這沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我也希望去研究一下在園區裡面，為什麼？這幾天猶他州開始在討論，我們賴總統雖然新核能還沒準備好，但是全世界跑得比他腦海裡想得還快，2026年可能就要做上百到上千個SMR聯合發電的做法。我希望主委作為臺灣在科研上面、在園區上面的指導者，應該要料敵致勝，能夠先往前看、先往前做，可不可以瞭解一下？好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題，我們研究最重要的就是要確保未來的新核能是安全的，核廢料處理能夠讓民眾放心，這個研究我要投入……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，不用幫賴總統廣告，我們都知道不會有任何一個科學家要做一個危險的核能，這根本不用講嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員報告，過去的核電的確是不安全，的確是喔。很可能因為人為的疏失，會產生爐心融解這個事喔，過去曾經有這種可能性存在，未來我們要確保這個事不會發生，所以我要投入研究是這個目的……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，好，你說。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個不會發生，我們直接未來使用新核能的機會就大為提升。"],["葛委員如鈞：代理主席，我跟你借一點時間。對於主委你這樣的做法，我不是非常能夠理解。有沒有小行星曾經爆炸過？有沒有小行星曾經爆炸過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我沒有研究過。"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有恆星會消失？這是common sense！這是common sense！"],["吳主任委員誠文：恆星時間到了就會消失。"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！我們地球人是不是要很緊張？我們生活的環境是不是很危險？我覺得主委你不能這樣子去講……"],["吳主任委員誠文：危險性……"],["葛委員如鈞：你剛剛的論點完全違背了國際對於能源現在的主流討論，就像你剛剛講的，我們的預算可能會有這樣的刪除，所以哪些、哪些事情都做不到，我覺得不要用負面的陳述來創造一個緊張的氛圍，我們科學家是盡力以社會良善的未來在做努力，這一點我言盡至此，我希望您好好地感受一下……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，可以讓我講嗎？國際SMR的研究前提也是要確保安全，核廢料處理可以減廢，所以我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，我剛剛都認同，我說不會有科學家去做不安全的核能發展……"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯……"],["葛委員如鈞：但您剛剛想要跟全臺灣及全世界的人民強調，所有的核電廠都可能發生爐心融解，這是你作為科學家在這裡……"],["吳主任委員誠文：過去歷史上已經發生好幾次了喔，所以它不是……"],["葛委員如鈞：歷史上也發生過很多滅絕事件……"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們希望……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們需要在這裡去討論這些事情嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員講的……"],["葛委員如鈞：你看缺電，主委……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我講的是事實啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，缺電啦！好啦，所以你看，我不能說燈光沒了，臺灣明天要停電了，我不會這樣講嘛，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，我今天時間有限，我還有幾個問題要就教於您，好不好？我希望我們能夠正向，我們不要用這種負面的論述來讓大家感到緊張。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我非常正向，剛剛委員說我講的那句話，我是很正向的喔。"],["葛委員如鈞：很正向說……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我邀請我們核能領域的專家回來研究，我是很正向的喔。"],["葛委員如鈞：我不是在講這句話，沒有關係，主委，謝謝你，我支持核能的專家要回來，千萬不能流失。","最後有幾個點我想問，我還是要感謝主委及國科會的同仁把智慧機器人、人型機器人納入未來可能的百億計畫當中，但是我們看到主委有一個說法滿特別的，你說智慧機器人包含所有人型、四隻腳的、翅膀型的、水下的，都可以算是機器人百億的範圍，這會不會有點大？我想請教一下，特斯拉算不算機器人？"],["吳主任委員誠文：自駕車如果是我們講autonomous自主型的……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是機器人？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然是機器人。"],["葛委員如鈞：無人機是不是機器人？"],["吳主任委員誠文：無人機現在還不是，但是未來它是自主的無人機的話，它也是一個機器人。"],["葛委員如鈞：到底有什麼東西不算機器人？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們講機器人是我們把它翻成中文有個「人」，這是robot……"],["葛委員如鈞：那掃地機器人也是機器人，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：也是啊，robot……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們現在2025年幹嘛要去弄這個東西呢？現在我只問你一個問題，謝謝主委，人型機器人你打算要在你這個百億裡面占幾趴？就這麼簡單。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們這邊沒有設定……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以表示臺灣100億元的機器人計畫投入進去，也有可能全部做掃地機器人，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不可能啦！依照社會需求、產業發展……"],["葛委員如鈞：比例你總有個規劃吧！"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我問您人型機器人的比例會是多少，有沒有預計？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，我不能預期我們的學者做研究會做哪一方面，我們是學術自由，我怎麼可能限定一個比例。"],["葛委員如鈞：不是，您要規劃啊！否則你100億下去，會不會到最後人型機器人根本沒有案件、收不到？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的規劃有非常重要的原則，這是智慧機器人，就是AI來領導，對人類的服務是一個重要的工具，用各種型態的硬體表現出來都可以，只要是有社會需求、能夠幫助人類，我們都發展。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，我只是想跟您溝通……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不能設定比例啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：現在全世界在討論的是人型機器人，黃仁勳、Elon Musk說，未來會有100億臺的人型機器人，我們如果走錯方向，我們現在還在投資過去20年已經存在的既有東西，我們很可能會選錯邊、選錯路。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，你秀的這個照片是在擂臺上打鬥，這種不是我的目標，我的目標是要幫助人類好好的生活。"],["葛委員如鈞：我是要展現它的技術，主委，你搞錯我意思了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們希望技術比它好。"],["葛委員如鈞：我是要展現它平衡的技術、我是要展現它可以跑動的技術……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，平衡。"],["葛委員如鈞：我是要跟主委表示，這是現在這個世界上已經存在的人型機器人。"],["吳主任委員誠文：平衡是小腦，我們要研究的是大腦為主，這是最重要的，對於小腦的部分，臺灣的產業界在零組件供應都已經供應出去了，所以我們有能力，現在最缺的是大腦、是AI。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係，未來希望我們的百億機器人裡面有很明確的規劃，到底有多少是掃地機器人的大腦、有多少是人型機器人的大腦，我們希望可以看到更仔細的規劃，我們再來一起支持，好不好？謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員，請官員跟主委回座。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：接下來有請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162075","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162075","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc12b1cdf1294601a681219069fb8f2289f989bcecc75155b6afaaab92e9403bad85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:36:46 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謝謝趙偉 我們有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝關委員好"},{"start":14.841,"end":43.863,"text":"好 主委長那最近我們其實看到台中火力發電廠九組發電機組火力全開那同時呢高雄的大林電廠還有興達電廠也默默加開了三號跟四號兩部燃煤機組那這一陣子其實大家都在關心這個空氣品質那不曉得主委有沒有注意我們覺得台灣最近空氣品質怎麼樣根據我們環境部公布的資料我記得品質並沒有變差"},{"start":45.209,"end":55.628,"text":"品質並沒有變差您個人也是這樣的感覺我自己我的鼻子其實沒有辦法乾什麼我鼻子感覺不出來"},{"start":57.52,"end":81.712,"text":"你的鼻子感覺不出來 好 這個關於您個人身體狀況的問題我就不予置評了但是呢 國科會的空氣品質感測器竟然意外地加劇了空汙那這個呢 你鼻子感覺不出來 但你一定知道這件事4月14號 陽明山國家公園小油坑發生了火燒山的意外"},{"start":82.432,"end":84.595,"text":"這個火勢燃燒將近50公頃起火原因疑似是由國營業國網中心的這個空氣品質感測器的離電池引起的那主委也非常的重視也親自到了現場去了解"},{"start":98.915,"end":121.178,"text":"後續我的了解主委更有對全台各地16支內建離電池的空氣品質感測器把它全拆了所以除了這個之外我們現在還有沒有其他有風險的科研設備在不曉得你到現場去看過以後的情況跟現在後續處理是怎麼樣報告委員"},{"start":122.918,"end":140.953,"text":"那時候媒體報導大概有50公頃其實是因為煙霧瀰漫後來我們陽明山國家公園管理處已經鑑定完畢大概大約在4.5公頃我也親自去看過那邊就是芒草跟建築所以主委這次可能就分兩個我們來看如果說燃燒的是4點多公頃那你煙霧瀰漫50公頃這就是一個污染當時可是那煙霧有些是"},{"start":149.84,"end":169.398,"text":"掺杂那个小油坑本来就好我们回到正题来所以你有没有再去看其他这些有风险的科研设备有我们都已经清查了所有的国科学学校我们国研院所有的这个监测的设备我们并不是说全部都要拆除了而是把有风险的"},{"start":170.759,"end":192.435,"text":"安全的我們還是會繼續做,因為這是不只是科研,我們提供很重要的監測數據主委,我想您自己剛剛也有講,其實我們在國科會轄下會有很多科研相關的設備恐怕也有一些,因為我不知道在什麼地方,恐怕也有一些在公共的場域那都會有一些我們這次看到的疑似的潛在安全風險"},{"start":193.576,"end":219.607,"text":"如果这一次是火烧山那如果我们有些科研设备是在人口稠密的地方那我觉得万一发生了什么样的状况的时候那还要造成人员伤亡那真的非常严重那所以除了刚才您所说的我们先去了解我们现在哪些地方有这些科研设备整个盘点一次那同时我们有没有去建立科研设备的风险管理还有一些监测相关机制有谢谢委员提醒这个我们的确"},{"start":220.307,"end":234.623,"text":"有了這次的教訓,我們的確已經做了比較安全的作業規範那這個作業規範也不是只有我們國研院裡面的各個單位而是跟我們合作的一些廠商,我們也同步會規範"},{"start":235.424,"end":260.902,"text":"嗯很好所以除了風險控管機制之外我想我們這個國科會作為全國科學技術發展的主管機關針對有安全風險的科研設備你要去做這個即時監控跟通報異常的功能我覺得應該是不難而且應該是很快可以做好來了所以呢你這個整個盤點加上剛剛所說的要把這些機制建立起來你需要多久的時間"},{"start":262.111,"end":270.573,"text":"我們已經建立起來了完整了嗎?已經完整了那會後可不可以給我們一個完整的報告讓我們更放心 好不好好 那接下來我想也是要稱讚一下國科會在上週被輝達執行長黃仁勛點名要一起和台積電與鴻海合作為台灣打造AI基礎建設這可以說是對國科會的一個肯定啦但是我們當然也要提醒說 你看"},{"start":283.996,"end":304.235,"text":"如果連這個黃仁勳都這麼肯定將來我們還有這麼多的事情要做所以剛剛所說的風險控管就要更小心一些了所以剛才我們又說到這個輝達執行長我們也知道其實黃仁勳旋風一直都在那不管他逛夜市不管他去哪家餐廳參加視狀運都可以引起這個全國矚目也是媒體追逐的焦點"},{"start":305.376,"end":323.454,"text":"那所以呢 他在這個北流的演講當中去宣布說 輝達台灣總部要落腳在台北的北投士林科技園區那這件事情在之前 主委這邊有沒有相當的掌握跟了解他自己宣布之前 他其實並沒有透露"},{"start":324.338,"end":353.226,"text":"手口如瓶好那其實我相信包括本席的選區桃園我們都一定會想要積極來爭取可是我們看到像輝達這樣的一個科技巨頭在選址的時候他應該有很多的考量包括人才供電還有產業聚落等等這也凸顯一個核心的問題就是未來台灣要在全球AI與高科技的浪潮當中保持競爭力科學園區的前瞻規劃還有土地整備絕對是非常重要的這一點主委同意嗎"},{"start":354.626,"end":379.318,"text":"所以国科会也正在规划要增建科学园区的土地面积上个礼拜在5月21号的时候环境部召开了新设科学园区政策评估说明专案小组的会议当时国科会以厂商要跟流台湾来做一个修正的原因也提出了要增加科学园区的用地那这个目标是在2050年新设3000公顷的科学园区用地对吗"},{"start":380.225,"end":398.771,"text":"是 我們的確提出這樣但是據本席了解這個面積比原來說要增設1000公頃大幅增加了就是說我們的目標值大幅增加了三倍之多可是我們又看到截至今年5月我們台灣目前在營運中的科學園區面積是4472公頃如果加上開發或者開發中或者規劃中869公頃那合計總共是5341公頃"},{"start":407.034,"end":419.128,"text":"我們現在說要再增加3000公頃等於是增加全台灣現在現有科學面積的56%是這麼大的量所以我想要請教一下主委我們現在我們講出來這3000公頃的開發規劃是如何推估產業需求的"},{"start":424.654,"end":452.08,"text":"報告委員剛剛講三千公頃就是加上目前一千公頃再加兩千那其實我們未來的這個需求台積電依照我們的人力土地水電等資源的推估大概還需要再一千公頃那為什麼要提兩千公頃原因是因為我接任以後我其實是希望我們發展未來的園區是要把產業跟生態跟社區"},{"start":453.18,"end":474.929,"text":"要把它融合在一起弄成一個比較低度開發的這種優質的這個園區我們的確是要保護生態如果我們園區裡面只是產業而已那生態就是在園區外面我們讓它置身置面的話反而對於我們濱林絕種的生物"},{"start":475.749,"end":497.82,"text":"會有更大的這個如果你說的這個部分我想本席十分的認同其實本來也就是要提醒這其實是您剛剛所說的部分是重要的那您既然已經注意到了我覺得在將來的規劃跟落實的執行各方面我覺得要更細緻一點因為你看你現在說的原本的一千加兩千總之要增加三千公頃這個面積其實非常大"},{"start":498.46,"end":520.236,"text":"這系統就像本行的選區桃園區差不多的大小也差不多就是我們竹科將近4.6倍大所以您剛所說的部分我想科研AI的發展尤其是我想我們自己的召委其實葛如君委員其實在這方面也是非常的支持的所以我想面對這麼大面積的土地開發的規劃就像您剛所說的那一些些您剛所提出的每一項都應該要審慎的評估"},{"start":526.841,"end":534.287,"text":"那可是呢比較可惜的是到目前為止我在這個國科會的科學園區政策評估說明書裡面我覺得還沒有看到太多太細的說明跟評估啦我是希望能不能盡快的把它這個就是送出來給我們看因為在上一週專案小組會議之後本席看到媒體有很多的環評委員認為國科會的說明書叫做寫得蠻糟的問題蠻多的那尤其針對"},{"start":553.702,"end":569.353,"text":"廢棄物處理還有用水用電都沒有辦法說明完整那更遑論剛才主委所說的這麼遠大的目標要做一個整體的開發跟保護所以是不是啊這裡因為今天時間也到了能不能請國客會會後用書面來補充說明多久可以送上來兩個月內可以兩個月內不會太久嗎因為現在還有委員在提意見所以我們會依照委員的意見"},{"start":581.395,"end":591.286,"text":"讓委員可以放心的狀況之下我們調整完一定會送給萬委員好 那我想叫委員會其實我們所有的委員都要了解好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":248,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時36分）謝謝召委，我們有請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：主委早。最近我們其實看到台中火力發電廠9組發電機組火力全開，同時高雄的大林電廠還有興達電廠也默默加開了3號跟4號兩部燃煤機組，這一陣子其實大家都在關心空氣品質，不曉得主委有沒有注意，你覺得臺灣最近空氣品質怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：根據環境部公布的資料，我記得品質並沒有變差。"],["萬委員美玲：品質並沒有變差？您個人也是這樣的感覺？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的鼻子其實沒有辦法感……"],["萬委員美玲：什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的鼻子感覺不出來。"],["萬委員美玲：你的鼻子感覺不出來？關於您個人身體狀況的問題，我就不予置評了。但是國科會的空氣品質感測器竟然意外地加劇了空污，雖然你鼻子感覺不出來，但你一定知道這件事，4月14號陽明山國家公園小油坑發生了火燒山的意外，火勢延燒將近50公頃，起火原因疑似是由國研院國網中心的空氣品質感測器的鋰電池引起的，主委也非常的重視，也親自到了現場去了解。後續以我的了解，主委更把全臺各地16支內建鋰電池的空氣品質感測器全拆了。除了這個之外，我們現在還有沒有其他有風險的科研設備在？不曉得你到現場去看過以後的情況跟後續處理是怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，那時候媒體報導大概有50公頃，其實是因為煙霧瀰漫，後來陽明山國家公園管理處已經鑑定完畢，大約在4.5公頃，我也親自去看過，那邊就是芒草跟建築。"],["萬委員美玲：不是嘛！主委，這事可能就分兩個，我們來看，如果說延燒的是四點多公頃，煙霧瀰漫50公頃，這就是一個污染嘛！對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當時啦！可是煙霧有些是摻雜小油坑本來就會……"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們回到正題來，所以你有沒有再去看其他這些有風險的科研設備？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們都已經清查了國科會轄下國研院所有的監測設備，我們並不是說全部都要拆除，而是把有風險的……安全的我們還是會繼續做，因為這不只是科研，我們還提供很重要的監測數據。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我想您自己剛剛也有講，其實我們在國科會轄下會有很多的科研相關設備，因為我不知道在什麼地方，但恐怕也有一些在公共的場域，都會有一些疑似的潛在安全風險。這一次是火燒山，如果有一些科研設備是在人口稠密的地方，萬一發生什麼狀況的時候還會造成人員傷亡，那真的非常嚴重，所以除了剛才您所說的先去了解現在哪些地方有這些科研設備，整個盤點一次之外，有沒有同時建立科研設備的風險管理及監測相關機制？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員提醒，有了這次的教訓，我們的確已經做了比較安全的作業規範，這個作業規範不是只有規範國研院裡面的各個單位，而是跟我們合作的廠商也會同步規範。"],["萬委員美玲：很好，除了風險控管機制之外，國科會作為全國科學技術發展的主管機關，針對有安全風險的科研設備你們要進行即時監控以及通報異常的功能，我覺得應該不難，而且應該是很快就可以做好。除了整個盤點，加上剛剛所說的要把這些機制建立起來，需要多久的時間？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經建立起來了。"],["萬委員美玲：完整了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經完整了。"],["萬委員美玲：會後可不可以給我們一個完整的報告，讓我們更放心好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來我要稱讚一下，國科會在上週被輝達執行長黃仁勳點名要一起和台積電與鴻海合作，為臺灣打造AI基礎建設，這可以說是對國科會的肯定，但是我們也要提醒如果連黃仁勳都這麼肯定，將來你們還有這麼多的事情要做，所以剛剛所說的風險控管就要更小心一些了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：剛才說到輝達的執行長，我們也知道黃仁勳旋風一直都在，不管他逛夜市，不管他吃哪家餐廳或是參加世壯運，都可以引起全國矚目，同時也是媒體追逐的焦點，他在北流的演講當中宣布輝達臺灣總部要落腳在臺北的北投士林科技園區，這件事情之前主委有沒有相當的掌握跟了解？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在他自己宣布之前其實並沒有透露。"],["萬委員美玲：守口如瓶，好。我相信包括本席的選區桃園，也都一定想要積極來爭取。我們看到像輝達這樣的科技巨頭在選址的時候，他應該有很多的考量，包括人才、供電及產業聚落等等，這也凸顯一個核心的問題，就是未來臺灣要在全球AI與高科技的浪潮當中保持競爭力，科學園區的前瞻規劃以及土地整備絕對是非常重要的，這一點主委同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以國科會也正在規劃要增建科學園區的土地面積，上個禮拜在5月21號的時候，環境部召開了新設科學園區政策評估說明專案小組會議，當時國科會以廠商要根留臺灣作為修正的原因，也提出了要增加科學園區的用地，目標是在2050年新設3,000公頃的科學園區用地對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們的確提出這樣的意見。"],["萬委員美玲：但是據本席了解，這個面積比原來說要增設1,000公頃大幅增加了，也就是我們的目標值大幅增加了三倍之多，我們又看到截至今年5月，臺灣目前在營運中的科學園區面積是4,472公頃，如果加上開發中或者規劃中的869公頃，合計總共是5,341公頃，我們現在說要再增加3,000公頃，等於是增加全臺灣現有科學面積的56%，是這麼大的量，所以我想要請教一下主委，現在講出來這3,000公頃的開發規劃是如何推估產業需求的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，剛剛講的3,000公頃就是目前的1,000公頃再加2,000公頃，針對未來的需求，台積電依照我們的人力、土地、水電等資源的推估，大概還需要再1,000公頃，那為什麼要提2,000公頃？原因是我接任以後，我其實是希望我們發展未來的園區要把產業、生態跟社區融合在一起，弄成一個比較低度開發的優質園區，我們的確是要保護生態，如果園區裡面只是產業而已，生態在園區外面讓它自生自滅的話，反而對於瀕臨絕種的生物會有更大的……"],["萬委員美玲：主委你說的這個部分，本席十分認同，其實本來就要提醒您剛剛所說的部分是重要的，您既然已經注意到了，我覺得在將來的規劃及落實執行各方面就要更細緻一點。你說要把原本的1,000公頃加上2,000公頃，總之要增加3,000公頃，這個面積其實非常大，這等同本席的選區桃園區差不多的大小，也差不多是竹科的4.6倍大。針對您剛剛所說的部分，包括科研、AI的發展，其實我們的召委葛如鈞委員在這方面也是非常支持的，面對這麼大面積土地開發的規劃，就像您剛剛所說的，您剛剛所提出的每一項都應該要審慎的評估，比較可惜的是，到目前為止我在國科會的科學園區政策評估說明書裡面還沒有看到太多細節的說明及評估，能不能儘快把它送出來給我們看？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["萬委員美玲：因為在上一週專案小組會議之後，本席看到媒體報導有很多環評委員認為國科會的說明書寫得蠻糟的、問題蠻多的，尤其針對廢棄物處理以及用水、用電都沒有辦法說明完整，更遑論剛才主委所說的這麼遠大的目標──要做整體的開發跟保護。因為今天時間也到了，能不能請國科會會後用書面來補充說明？多久可以送上來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：兩個月內可以，因為……"],["萬委員美玲：兩個月內？不會太久嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為現在還有委員在提意見，我們會依照委員的意見，在讓委員可以放心的狀況之下，我們調整完一定會送給萬委員。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想教文委員會所有的委員都要了解，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員質詢，官員請回座。"],["主席（劉委員書彬代）：請葛委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162074","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162074","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1c5d929ea9a1ec3d91219069fb8f2289f989bcecc75155b6a50ce43fc02dd9c4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:28:12 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我請國科會吳主委有請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14.362,"end":37.642,"text":"主委好你知道我一直非常關心我們太空中心還有太空三期計畫的預算所以剛剛前面有提到說解凍去年的凍結預算跟刪除預算對我們國科會整體的計畫造成的影響其中有一點我想要特別提醒你們因為我看到太空中心在去年被凍結了一筆五百萬"},{"start":38.923,"end":41.964,"text":"上面凍結的理由是說你們在113年太空中心的預算原額是486人但是去年還有50個名額是缺額的就是這個缺額未滿沒有把它補滿所以你們因此被凍結了500萬我想請問一下去年的這個50個名額我們在什麼時候把它補滿了"},{"start":64.452,"end":89.104,"text":"我們已經補滿了 2月 今年已經很快的把它補滿在去年底 是不是 你們今天的報告寫說113年12月去年 就去年的原額就已經補滿了是不是這個樣子今年2月補滿了今年2月補滿的 這是去年的原額然後今年還要再新增我們還要新增 因為我們一直在擴充我們的業務所以還在新增單位"},{"start":89.944,"end":106.135,"text":"所以這一點我希望你們要特別的注意因為大家都很支持你們的預算不要因為這樣子被凍結了反而造成使用上面之行會有一些影響那麼大家國人最關心的就是我們太空三期了"},{"start":106.895,"end":109.997,"text":"這個主委應該也記得我從去年進到立法院以來在委員會跟國科會關心我在總質詢的時候也跟院長關心那我知道最近我們賴清德總統也造訪了太空中心因為我們的福衛八號有一個即將就要來進行啟運跟發射所以這個大家都很期待啦這個福衛八號的發射是我們太空計畫的下一個里程碑那太空三期喔"},{"start":135.214,"end":139.598,"text":"要這個原先在2019年的時候我們訂的預算是251億到2023年的時候當時小英總統造訪就喊出說我們太空三級要加碼當時喊出要加碼達到400億"},{"start":150.387,"end":152.269,"text":"那我知道我們國科會其實做了很多的這個努力跟計畫的準備已經送進行政院了嘛接下來就是等院來審核通過我要問主委你對我們太空三型計畫的預算加碼超過400億你有沒有信心啊"},{"start":170.447,"end":178.513,"text":"我有信心但是需要我們大院來支持超過400億我們有信心啊是好我們非常的期待因為我想沉入你們今天的報告我們看到了在產值的部分讓我非常的非常的覺得很值得我們肯定說太空產業呢台灣去年的產值就達到了2773億"},{"start":196.306,"end":206.448,"text":"是整體產業喔然後呢其中我們在地面製造的部分台灣的廠商的地面製造的產值是達到了也是超過2000億2464億最重要的是它的成長率我剛剛前面講到成長率都是超過10%那你們的報告裡面告訴我們說這一個成長的幅度是大於全球市場的成長幅度所以"},{"start":224.611,"end":226.033,"text":"你們國科會預估我們台灣的太空產業在今年跟明年的產值都會持續提升主委能不能告訴我們你們是怎麼樣來依據什麼來預估的那台灣的成長幅度為什麼比其他國家來得高呢"},{"start":240.433,"end":253.964,"text":"目前太空中心的策略我們現在改了就是不是只有政府要發射衛星我們要跟國際合作國際合作就是造成一個我們台灣的供應鏈一個很大的商機那不是只有衛星本體跟它的這個籌債還有地面站"},{"start":256.726,"end":278.302,"text":"使用者終端的設備這個量非常的大所以台灣的產商很有興趣我們已經組成幾乎就是國家隊了其實我們去年整年的產值的提升國產的這些供應鏈的產值提升已經成長了超過100%那我估計今年還會再持續成長而且會有蠻亮眼的成績"},{"start":279.161,"end":284.544,"text":"好 所以我們已經有政府跟民間一起協力的太空國家隊好 非常期待那我想等太空三期計畫出來之後我們再來進行審視跟討論接下來也是很重要的是我們的算力部件"},{"start":294.269,"end":299.67,"text":"之前也跟主委質詢過我們在台灣在AI時代的基礎計劃目前國科會我們自由的有精創計劃跟大南方計劃那也有民間的算力資源在你們解凍報告當中有提到政威集團然後想要AI算力中心揮達的台北萬主機等等就在前幾天5月19號黃仁勳在Computex的演說中他提到"},{"start":321.817,"end":337.963,"text":"輝達將與國科會台積電以及鴻海四方合作共同打造台灣的AI基礎設施國科會也有公開回應說這個是雙方正在規劃當中事實的會來對外說明所以我請教主委已經見面討論過了已經初步討論過那細節我們後續會有初步討論過那這個事實公佈啊有沒有機會是在下半年"},{"start":350.374,"end":364.885,"text":"今年第一期大概鴻海就會開始建置第一期那預計第一期劉洋偉董事長也公開的講大概就是200MW這樣的目標"},{"start":369.048,"end":386.045,"text":"那後續還有兩期包含第二期跟第三期大概都會到40MW那這一部分不是只有鴻海跟輝達他們的合作還包含台積電跟國科會"},{"start":387.166,"end":405.334,"text":"國會在科研部分科技產業推動我們在各行各業要發展AI應用的產業我們也都會除了我們自己建的算力之外還會使用到民間投資的算力讓台灣的力量更為強大"},{"start":406.855,"end":424.242,"text":"是跟民間的合作很重要那我們國科會的自由算力也很重要所以我最後還是想要請教主委因為之前有問過你們嘛我們的金創方案還有大南方方案金創是在台中中埔對不對那大南方會是在台南沙崙我們目前的規劃是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":427.083,"end":443.564,"text":"我們的算力早期都是偏中在北部最主要的基地就是新竹科學園區我們國防中心的總部後來後續我們在台灣三建制的時候就在台中建制這個資料中心高速電腦"},{"start":444.565,"end":460.794,"text":"那賴總統在均衡台灣的這個理念之下我們也希望在南部有足夠的這個這個算力的建置那當然所有的這個資料中心算力的建置都是服務全國的絕對不是一定是服務當地而已啦那可是培養人才"},{"start":461.634,"end":485.465,"text":"因為算力中心建置以後要有很多的人才進來,要做營運、要做服務所以要均衡南北,我們現在就是把最近這一期的算力就放在南部除了台南之外,剛剛講高雄非常大的算力是民間投資,國科會也會跟他們合作那這個全部都是服務全國的"},{"start":486.329,"end":504.413,"text":"我想算力的基礎建設可以說新一代國家的十大建設之一了也非常的重要影響到了產業人力人才培育相關的發展等等所以希望我們國科會跟民間合作我們自己的自由算力也要持續的來提升是好謝謝主委謝謝主委謝謝吳佩奕委員質詢官員請問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":209,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（9時28分）謝謝主席，請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委備質詢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好。主委知道我一直非常關心太空中心及太空三期計畫的預算，剛剛前面有提到去年凍結預算跟刪除預算對國科會整體計畫造成的影響，其中有一點我想特別提醒你們，因為我看到太空中心去年被凍結一筆500萬的預算，凍結理由是說113年太空中心的預算員額486人，但去年還有50個缺額，就是名額沒有補滿，因此被凍結500萬元。我想請問主委，去年的這50個名額，你們在什麼時候把它補滿了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在今年2月已經很快補滿了。"],["吳委員沛憶：在去年底，是不是？今天的報告寫說113年12月，就是去年，員額已經補滿了，是不是這樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是今年2月補滿了。"],["吳委員沛憶：今年2月補滿的，這是去年的員額？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：然後今年還要再新增？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還要新增，因為我們一直在擴充業務，所以還在新增當中。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這一點我希望你們要特別注意，因為大家都很支持你們的預算，不要因為這樣被凍結，反而造成使用上、執行上的一些影響。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在國人最關心的就是太空三期，主委應該也記得，我從去年進到立法院以來，在委員會跟國科會關心，我在總質詢的時候也跟院長關心。我知道最近我們賴清德總統也造訪了太空中心，因為我們的福衛8號即將要進行啟運跟發射，所以大家都很期待福衛8號的發射，也是我們太空計畫的下一個里程碑。太空三期原先在2019年的時候，我們定的預算是251億，到2023年的時候，當時小英總統造訪，就喊出我們太空三期要加碼，當時喊出要加碼達到400億，我知道國科會其實做了很多的努力跟計畫的準備，已經送進行政院了嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來就是等院來審核通過，我要問主委，你對我們太空三期計畫的預算加碼超過400億，你有沒有信心？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有信心，但是需要大院來支持。"],["吳委員沛憶：超過400億，我們有信心？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我們非常的期待，因為我想誠如你們今天的報告，我們看到在產值的部分，讓我覺得很值得我們肯定，太空產業臺灣去年的產值就達到了2,773億，這整體產業喔！然後其中我們在地面製造的部分，臺灣廠商地面製造的產值也是超過2,000億，達到2,464億。最重要的是它的成長率，我剛剛前面講到成長率都是超過10%，那你們的報告裡面告訴我們說，這一個成長的幅度是大於全球市場的成長幅度。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以國科會預估，我們臺灣的太空產業在今年跟明年的產值都會持續提升，主委能不能告訴我們你們是依據什麼來預估的？那臺灣的成長幅度為什麼比其他國家來得高呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前太空中心的策略我們現在改了，就是不是只有政府要發射衛星，我們要跟國際合作，國際合作就會造成我們臺灣的供應鏈有一個很大的商機，那不是只有衛星本體跟它的酬載，還有地面站，還有使用者終端的設備，這個量非常的大，所以臺灣的廠商很有興趣，我們已經組成幾乎就是國家隊了。其實我們去年整年的產值提升，國產供應鏈的產值提升已經成長了超過100%，我估計今年還會再持續成長，而且會有滿亮眼的成績。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以我們已經有政府跟民間一起協力的太空國家隊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，非常期待，我想等太空三期計畫出來之後，我們再來進行審視跟討論。","接下來也是很重要的，是我們的算力布建，之前也跟主委質詢過我們在臺灣、在AI時代的基礎計畫，目前國科會自有的有晶創計畫跟大南方計畫，也有民間的算力資源，在你們解凍報告當中有提到正崴集團、翔耀AI算力中心、輝達的Taipei-1主機等等，就在前幾天5月19號黃仁勳在Computex的演說中，他提到輝達將與國科會、台積電以及鴻海四方合作，共同打造臺灣的AI基礎設施。國科會也有公開回應說這個雙方正在規劃當中，適時的會來對外說明。所以我請教主委，已經見面討論過了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經初步討論過，細節我們後續會……"],["吳委員沛憶：有初步討論過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個「適時公布」有沒有機會是在下半年？"],["吳主任委員誠文：今年大概鴻海就會開始建置第一期，劉揚偉董事長也公開的講，大概就是200MW的目標，後續還有還有兩期，包含第二期跟第三期，大概都會到40MW，這部分不是只有鴻海跟輝達的合作，還包含台積電跟國科會，國科會在科研部分、科技產業推動，我們在各行各業要發展AI應用的產業，除了我們自己建的算力之外，還會使用到民間投資的算力，讓臺灣的力量更為強大。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，跟民間的合作很重要，我們國科會的自有算力也很重要，所以我最後還是想要請教主委，因為之前有問過你們晶創方案還有大南方方案，晶創是在臺中、中部，對不對？那大南方會是在臺南沙崙，我們目前的規劃是怎麼樣呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的算力早期都是偏重在北部，最主要的基地就是新竹科學園區我們國網中心的總部，那後續我們在「台灣杉」建置的時候，就在臺中建置資料中心、高速電腦。賴總統在均衡臺灣的理念之下，我們也希望在南部有足夠的算力建置，當然所有的資料中心、算力的建置都是服務全國的，絕對不是一定是服務當地而已，可是培養人才，因為算力中心建置以後要有很多的人才進來，要做營運、要做服務，所以要均衡南北，我們現在就是把最近這一期的算力放在南部。除了臺南之外，剛剛講高雄非常大的算力是民間投資，國科會也會跟他們合作，這個全部都是服務全國的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。我想算力的基礎建設可以說是新一代國家的十大建設之一了，也非常的重要，影響到了產業、人力、人才培育相關的發展等等，所以希望我們國科會跟民間合作，我們自己的自有算力也要持續來提升。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來我們有請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}},{"id":"162073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162073","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc1cd23751fb211373b1219069fb8f2289f989bcecc75155b6abb574d15a1fc2d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:16:16 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Law这个部分而且呢他在你看他是2014年获得国客会这个一项补助就这么久了就获得这么一项补助以法的观点来看然后在2022年经过大概经过了八年的时间有人在跟国客会来做一个检举"},{"start":105.342,"end":131.943,"text":"表示呢这八年来他所看载的这个所谓的学门专门的这个部分里面来说是引起很大的质疑的所以也来看我们来看下面所以说呢这个刘静怡的这个当时的法律的召委他当然就会提出质疑而且他们是七人全诉通过要送学轮但是学轮呢大概有一票之差然后呢就没有所以说呢为什么这两个差距这么大我想主委就你的理解到底是为什么"},{"start":133.063,"end":160.757,"text":"兩個單位為什麼對於這樣一個認定差距這麼大報告委員這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的這個細節但是我就同仁跟我報告了這個資料當初他是在國科會在申請計畫的時候他寫了自己的資料就好像說所有人都會有填自己的履歷沒錯履歷他怎麼填其實我們"},{"start":161.617,"end":188.488,"text":"我们也很奇怪明明是这样子社会科学院毕业的为什么硬要说自己是法学院这个部分其实也是目前为止大家认为在integrity这个部分里面是受到很大的质疑而且是国科会去函希望能够把他这个部分匡正完之后他才做修正这经过时间经过非常长的时间所以我说不是博士学问的问题而是他的integrity的问题那这个问题其实你说大其实也很大"},{"start":188.888,"end":189.249,"text":"因为这个细节"},{"start":202.136,"end":205.117,"text":"我並不是很清楚,但是我知道當初的確有進到學術倫理委員會討論,討論完大家委員,委員就是要去表決"},{"start":221.801,"end":228.903,"text":"那可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵但是還不至於到所以你還是能夠重複這個學者說我覺得這就是integrative問題這是一個觀感的問題我們沒有質疑他的博士學位但是對於他是號稱自己是法學博士其實而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正的話其實他就會用這樣的學位一直到底這也就是大家會認為你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念"},{"start":247.209,"end":268.334,"text":"問題是所以當初我們的確有要求他一定要要求做匡證可是你看看你們國科會的網站我們回到第一頁你國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下啊部長你們國科會只要就媒體的報導你們做出說明就好你大可不用在你們網站裡面對於他自己個人的說法認為科技部判定他還他公道這句話不用登在你們的網站當中這是他個人的說法這一副"},{"start":268.974,"end":288.995,"text":"要是我來說,國科會要求我去框證,我不覺得這是還我公道,我覺得我有疏失,我怎麼可能說是公道,所以你就爭據國科網站,爭據你們的說明,做好說明就好,不用框上這個所謂的利益關係人自己的說法,我覺得這是未來給國科會的一個說法,並沒有還他公道,國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已。"},{"start":289.415,"end":313.68,"text":"是我们应该就是照实解释就好本来就是嘛而且我也不能理解他的动机到底在哪里明明我觉得当时一个社科院的博士也蛮好的为什么一直要说自己是法学博士法学博士难道会比社科博士来的地位高一点吗这我们完全不可以我想在场很多人的儿子特别是学社会科学学门的部分不过这绝对是一个瑕疵以至于当他被派人的时候很多人所以主委你也不赞成"},{"start":314.5,"end":323.081,"text":"学位里面你不是学位该怎么样就该怎么样你也不赞成去框一个不是属于他的这个学位这也是无庸置疑的吧"},{"start":323.986,"end":341.384,"text":"不過我們現在在國科會各個學門的計畫申請不見得都是原學門的教授因為現在很多跨領域的研究我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門你可以看我自己的我就會框一個對我自己有利的這是我的好吧我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫從頭到尾教育學門科學教育示範教育等等但是我們會框一個對我們有利的"},{"start":346.047,"end":373.977,"text":"对但是不应该你拿到一个国科会当初你自己的一个部分你就框成自己是一个法律博士我觉得这个东西对大部分来说这是真的是有违反学术理念这个层面好那接下来我们要把事情把它理定清楚我们来看看你们的基本的这个费用来说你们基本行政的特别费当中你们是被冻结了一七一百一十九万嘛对不对一百一十七万九但是呢主委我还是要特别诚信一下"},{"start":375.047,"end":390.977,"text":"凍結的部分國科會整體來講有1億8千萬喔我知道但是我要你的說法你說因為財化法的關係照比例調整你們被減了200億這不是因為財化法是另外一回事我說今年我們被凍結的部分"},{"start":391.417,"end":407.636,"text":"我知道 可是你的發言是在這裡啊 我是問你新聞的說法你真的是國科會有被裁劃法的方法 你們真的有被影響嗎這大標題寫在這個地方啊裁劃法還沒有 明年才上路行政院目前解釋那你幹嘛去跟人家講說因為這個關係你們受到200億的影響我想只問今年嘛 今年有受到影響嗎"},{"start":411.221,"end":418.327,"text":"當時媒體問的是財化法的影響當然這是明年如果財化法修正案你這邊是寫國科會111年度的預算210受到影響不利台灣科學發展主委 說話必須要憑證據我說話我不是講今年我絕對沒有講財化法修正案會影響今年那你就去公正一下你這邊寫國科會114年的預算好不好你這邊是你們的預算你的發布日期是這樣寫的"},{"start":438.194,"end":447.925,"text":"是明年啦那你就寫錯了嘛你要不要更正一下明年會不會受到影響我們也不知道你這樣完全就是被大家在陷入這樣的一個方式然後呢重點是你們未來來說報告委員這可能是誤會啦等一下我還有你可以等下一併回答還有特別"},{"start":454.913,"end":468.323,"text":"你现在目前为止我们要开始编列明年的预算然后你们告诉我们说科技非常的重要然后呢你们可能在115年7月确定8月要编预算书你目前为止在增加预算当中将要编列1800亿元你认为目前为止你有收到任何的通知说这1800亿元会受到影响吗"},{"start":475.253,"end":491.031,"text":"我們行政院已經就這個財化法修正案通過以後必須要重新調備各部你認為目前為止你有感受到1800億受到影響嗎你有收到這樣的一個訊息嗎然後呢你說財化法商路會是一個災難然後你目前有受到任何的影響嗎你要預估嗎"},{"start":492.732,"end":506.807,"text":"報告委員的確有受到影響我現在只問你 你有感受到1800億目前有被要求說這個經費要受到調整嗎 有沒有有然後要調整多少要調整至少要減200億這樣"},{"start":509.182,"end":524.485,"text":"我只是告诉你啊目前来说那我们就看看你今年7月所编制的预算我只能说我们也同意赞成科研人力各方面都非常的重要但是呢如果目前为止尚未发生还在编制预算请你就好跟你们的科证委员报告"},{"start":524.926,"end":552.936,"text":"好好的守住这个部分但是我对于还没有发生特别是114年这个部分你们这样的说法然后呢又一直到好像这个时候又一直到是蓝白乱砍预算以至于研发这样我们的部分有受到影响这样的一个推论我个人是非常有意见我觉得有多少的事情就要讲多少的话这是很重要我让我那个赵伟让我这样很快就把它讲完然后呢有关业务费冻结30里面有关科学园区人才的这个培育当中呢我还是要直指啊"},{"start":554.016,"end":581.19,"text":"被冻结的这三十我们等一下会来一一来做但是你看到你们这个园区的培育人才2016年是五千四但是呢到2024年的时候你们是降到两千八所以人才呢人数越来越低还有呢更不要讲说我们所提到的招生一并等一下我们会在解读的时候一并来说明你们招生比率来说特别是南科的部分来说说实在的效果也不是非常的好但是你们在报告的部分里面"},{"start":581.63,"end":585.273,"text":"你們是給我兩句話就給我解決了這點是讓本席覺得非常不滿意的相對竹科相對中科南科時鐘的報告這個部分來告訴你就要這樣解凍我覺得持續改善策略這個以科學出身的主委來說你可能也不太會接受最後我還是要提到的有很多的時候再往下這時候等一下"},{"start":603.127,"end":605.868,"text":"提供你来做一个参考虽然说你在很多业务费"},{"start":621.255,"end":624.018,"text":"你不能無限的告訴我們就說因為這個東西沒有辦法然後給你這麼多的經費而且事實證明你們在決算的時候都有剩餘的狀況我個人認為到目前為止應該在維持基本的行政工作來說資訊管理上面應該是問題不大"},{"start":637.31,"end":663.903,"text":"包括委員因為業務會是在行政事務上面我們在特別是在南科現在大幅的擴充因為委員也知道說我們在高雄兩大名廠現在如火如燭但是主委南科的部分擴充我們絕對會給予大力的支持但是呢如果你這些經費不夠的話我們可以用很多追加或很多的方式來說但是我只是告訴你以目前為止我們所看到的訊息你所剩餘的目前來說"},{"start":665.103,"end":680.212,"text":"在我們解凍之前說實在的在很多業務的推行上面應該還是可以的不過當初這個立法院的決議是不能流用其他經費我們的主計是管得非常嚴格所以業務費還是要拜託我們等一下但是我們就從數據來告訴"},{"start":686.616,"end":687.557,"text":"谢谢 谢谢委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時16分）謝謝召委，是不是請主委？"],["主席：有請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。等一下我會針對你們的解凍案一一來就教於主委，不過一開始我們還是來討論一下大家所關切的，有關於派英國公使江雅綺的學倫問題。我看到了當初國科會針對這個部分也做出了一些說明，所以我現在問你，你的說法應該也是一樣。","我們先來看一下，這位江博士，說實在的，他是博士沒有錯，只是在博士的專業、major的部分，大家持有不同的看法。其實，如果調出國科會的研究人才詳細資料表，可以看到他跟國科會的相會其實不太多，大概只有他是新進人員研究的時候有獲得一個研究計畫，因為我們通常只看計畫主持人，計畫主持人最重要，至於共同主持人，通常就是掛了好多人，但是以計畫主持人來說，其他兩個都是申請出席國際學術會議，這不算，所以以計畫來說的話，他當初申請的學門代碼是民事法，這是他目前為止跟國科會以及在法的這個層面當中是比較有關的，大學裡面他確實是PhD in Law這個部分，而且他是在2014年獲得國科會一項補助，這麼久以來就獲得這麼一項補助，以法的觀點來看。","然後到2022年，大概經過了8年的時間，有人向國科會做一個檢舉，表示這8年來，他所刊載的所謂學門專門的這個部分來說引起了很大的質疑。我們來看一下，劉靜怡這位當時的法律召委當然就會提出質疑，而且他們是7人全數通過要送學倫，但是到學倫大會大概是一票之差，然後就沒有成立。為什麼這兩個的差距這麼大？主委，就你的理解，到底是為什麼？兩個單位為什麼對於這樣的一個認定差距這麼大？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這件案子我其實並不清楚當時的細節，但是就同仁跟我報告的資料，當初他向國科會申請計畫的時候，他自己填寫的資料，就好像所有人都會填自己的履歷嘛……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯。"],["吳主任委員誠文：履歷上他怎麼填，其實沒有人會……"],["柯委員志恩：我們也感到很奇怪，明明是社會科學院畢業的，為什麼硬要說自己是法學院，這個部分其實也是到目前為止大家認為在integrity的部分是受到很大的質疑。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["柯委員志恩：而且是國科會去函希望能夠把他的這個部分匡正完之後，他才做修正，這經過了非常長的時間，所以我說不是博士學位的問題，而是他的integrity的問題，這個問題，其實說大也很大，如果任何人拿到博士學位，但他自己的major是什麼卻可以任意填寫，這個部分對很多人來說是很不可思議的事情，不是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為這個細節我並不是很清楚，但是我知道當初的確有進到那個學術……"],["柯委員志恩：學倫啊！學倫會告訴你的就是，因為他有念過法，所以他可以寫法學，這也沒什麼不好，你贊同這樣的說法嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有進到學術倫理委員會討論，依照程序討論完之後，委員就是要表決嘛，可能那時候委員認為有瑕疵，但是還不至於到……"],["柯委員志恩：你還是能夠重複這個學倫會的說法，我覺得這就是integrity的問題，這是一個觀感的問題，我們沒有質疑他的博士學位，但是對於他號稱自己是法學博士，而且這麼久以來如果沒有被糾正，那麼他就會用這樣的學位一直到底，這也就是大家質疑的地方，你看全部都是用法學博士這樣的概念，所以問題是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：當初我們的確有要求他一定要……"],["柯委員志恩：要去匡正，可是你看你們國科會的網站，國科會的網站我還是要糾正一下，國科會只要就媒體的報導做出說明就好，大可不必在你們的網站上登載他自己的個人說法：科技部判定還公道。這句話不用登在你們的網站上，這是他個人的說法。就我來說，如果國科會要求我匡正，我不覺得是還我公道，我覺得是我有疏失，怎麼可能說是公道！所以國科會的網站就針對你們的說明就好，不用框上這個所謂利益關係人自己的說法，這是我給國科會的一個建議，並沒有還他公道，國科會只是做出你們該有的解釋而已，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們應該就照實解釋就好。"],["柯委員志恩：本來就是嘛！而且我也不能理解他的動機到底在哪裡，我覺得當社科院博士也蠻好的，為什麼一直要說自己是法學博士，法學博士難道會比社科博士地位來得高一點嗎？這我完全不認可，我想在場很多人都不得而知，特別是學社會科學學門的人，不過這絕對是一個瑕疵，以至於當他被派任的時候，其實學位的部分，博士學位該怎麼樣就怎麼樣，主委也不贊成去框一個不屬於他的學門，這點是無庸置疑的吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不過現在國科會各個學門的計畫申請，不見得都是原學門的教授……"],["柯委員志恩：當然啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為現在很多是跨領域的研究。"],["柯委員志恩：我們也希望能夠框一個專業學門，你可以看我自己的，我就會框一個對我自己有利的部分，我也拿到國科會非常多的計畫，從頭到尾，有教育學門、科學教育、師範教育等等，我們都會框一個對自己有利的學門，但是當初這個部分，他就把自己框成是法律博士，我覺得這對大部分的人來說，真的是有違反學術倫理的層面。","接下來我們把事情釐定清楚，來看看你們的基本行政工作維持（特別費）的部分，當初被凍結117萬9,000元，對不對？主委，我還是要特別澄清一下……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會整體來講，凍結有1億8,000萬。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，但是我要針對你的說法，你說因為財劃法的關係，如照比例調整，會被減列200億……"],["吳主任委員誠文：財劃法是另外一回事，我是說今年被凍結的部分。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，但你的發言在這裡，這是你們新聞的說法，國科會真的有被財劃法修法影響嗎？大標題寫在這個地方啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：財劃法……"],["柯委員志恩：還沒有嘛！明年才上路，這只是行政院目前的解釋，你幹嘛跟著人家講說因為這個關係，你們受到200億的影響？我現在只問今年，今年有受到影響嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當時媒體問的是財劃法的影響，當然這是明年，如果財劃法修正案……"],["柯委員志恩：這邊新聞是寫「國科會114年度預算約200億元受到影響，不利臺灣科技發展」。主委，說話必須要憑證據，今年……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不是講今年，我絕對沒有講財劃法會影響今年……"],["柯委員志恩：好，那你去更正一下，這邊寫「國科會114年預算」，你們發布的新聞是這樣寫的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是明年啦！"],["柯委員志恩：那你就寫錯了嘛！要不要更正一下？明年會不會受影響我也不知道，但你這樣寫，完全是陷入這樣的一個方式，重點是未來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，報告委員，這可能是誤會……"],["柯委員志恩：等一下，我還有問題，你可以等一下一併回答。現在要開始編列明年的預算，你告訴我們說科技非常重要，然後你們可能在114年7月確定8月要編預算書，預計115年科技預算將編列1,800億元。請問到目前為止，你有收到任何通知，表示這1,800億元會受到影響嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院在財劃法修正案通過以後，就已經表示必須重新調配各部會的……"],["柯委員志恩：目前為止，你有感受到1,800億受到影響嗎？你有收到這樣的訊息嗎？然後你說財劃法上路將是災難，請問你目前有受到任何影響嗎？你有預估嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，的確有受到影響……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在只問你，你有感受到1,800億目前有被要求經費要調整嗎？有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["柯委員志恩：然後呢？要調整多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：要調整……至少要減200億。"],["柯委員志恩：那我們就看看你們今年7月所編製的預算！我只能說我們也同意、贊成科研人力各方面都非常重要，但如果事情到目前為止都尚未發生，都還在編製預算中，請你好好跟你們的科政委員報告，要好好守住這個部分，但是對於還沒有發生的事，特別是114年的部分，你們有這樣的說法，然後好像又意指是藍白亂砍預算，以致研發的部分受到影響，這樣的推論，我個人非常有意見，我覺得有多少的事情就講多少話，這很重要。","召委，讓我快速把它講完。有關業務費凍結30%，在科學園區人才培育部分，針對這被凍結的30%，我們等一下一一來檢視，但是你看你們園區的人才培育，2016年是5,400人，但是到2024年降到2,800人，人數是越來越低，更不要講我們所提到的招生……等一下我們在處理預算解凍時再一併說明，以招生比例來說，特別是南科的部分，說實在的，效果也不是非常好，但是你們的報告只給我兩句話就解決了，這點讓本席非常不滿意，相對竹科、中科，南科實中的報告，告訴我們有持續改善策略，以這樣的報告就要要求我們解凍，對學科學出身的主委來說，可能也不太能接受。","最後我還要提出很多資料供你們參考，雖然你們在很多業務費─基本行政工作維持，還有資訊管理部分，都告訴我們被凍結，但事實上，你們的經費比過去還多，最重要的是，國科會每年預算都有賸餘，所以我只能說我們會用很多方法協助大家做業務的發展，但是不能無限的告訴我們這個東西沒有辦法，然後要求給你們更多經費，事實證明，你們的決算都有賸餘狀況，所以我個人認為，到目前為止，基本行政工作維持和資訊管理部分，問題應該不大。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，業務費是在行政事務上面，特別是南科，因為現在正大幅擴充，委員也知道，我們高雄兩奈米廠現在是如火如荼在進行，還有屏科……"],["柯委員志恩：是，主委，南科的擴充我們絕對會給予大力支持，如果你覺得經費不夠，我們可以用很多方式，包括追加預算來做，但是我只是告訴，目前為止我們所看到的訊息，你是有賸餘的，所以在預算解凍之前，說實在的，很多業務的推進應該還是可以執行的，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不過當初立法院決議是不能流用其他經費，我們的主計管得非常嚴格。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得主計常常……"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以業務費還是要拜託……"],["柯委員志恩：這個等一下，但是我們就以數據告訴主委，特別是你們的線上申辦服務，當然這也是你們提出的理由，但是你們服務的案數是完全往下降，所以我只用數據告訴你，下次再給我們寫解凍報告的時候，可能要提出更好的數據，我們才有辦法依這個報告來幫你們處理，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-14","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","吳沛憶","萬美玲","劉書彬","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","葉元之","范雲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案","agenda_id":"1145601_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}