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各位委員大家早那省紀部今天應邀列席貴委員會來專題報告自感榮幸那以下就簡要報告省紀部的相關業務跟我們政府的廉政的相關關係那本部會的落實青年政府跟協力防治公務員賭職積極運用大數據分析等技術整合政府電子採購網等相關的資料庫發掘財務上的為私行為"},{"start":2215.908,"end":2230.535,"text":"那如果發現機關人員有財務上為私行為涉及刑事的部分就依據審計法第17條後段的規定移送司法機關來辦理那並報告監察院那如果考核各機關的績效"},{"start":2231.736,"end":2254.373,"text":"如果有未竟職責或效能過低那就依審計法第69條第一項的前段規定通知他的上級機關來查處並報告監察院另外本部也跟廉政機關建立聯繫的合作平台強化情資的分享跟協同機制那這樣的話我想應該有助於促進公務機關的良善治理"},{"start":2254.813,"end":2277.711,"text":"那以下就幾個案例來報告審計部的實際查核的情況跟處理首先是我們運用跨機關資料庫來查核政府採購的行政管理的財閥機制那我們在109年跟111年間我們篩選司法院跟法務部的刑事偵審的資料庫列載跟政府採購有關的行政財閥機制的執行的採購案"},{"start":2283.935,"end":2307.135,"text":"總共有2900餘件採行聯合審計的方式查核各級政府的落實管制情形調查的結果發現有800餘家的不法廠商主辦的機關沒有依政府採購法的規定追繳押標金有500家次的不法廠商主辦機關沒有依政府採購法的規定刊登政府採購公報來聽權"},{"start":2309.517,"end":2325.797,"text":"相關的績效我們就已經積極的處理那周圍壓標進大概有1億5000多萬元並完成相關廠商的停權作業那相關行政機關的人員的疏失也處理了那部分涉及"},{"start":2326.958,"end":2351.452,"text":"相關事項我們移送監察院來處理那工程會已經採行相關的積極作為那下面基於時間的關係個案的部分請各級委員來參閱那最後報告結語那審計工作的主要目的是來促使政府健全財務秩序匡正財務紀律跟增進財務效能協助國家良善治理那本部會繼續運用資訊科技來稽查"},{"start":2355.154,"end":2377.665,"text":"財務跟財政上的為私行為達到嚇阻的功能來避免公務員存有僥倖的心態然後誤觸違法事件未來我們仍然會運用相關的技術提升審核效能來善盡職責 以上報告好 謝謝那我們下一位請副秘書長接下來我們是請部長報告 謝謝"},{"start":2384.556,"end":2407.932,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安大家好今天貴委員會舉辦如何落實清廉政府及公務員貪毒的太陽跟防治專題報告本院奉邀前來一次就與本院業務有關的部分報告如下敬請指教第一點就違反貪污之罪條例的案件各地方法院從民國98年到114年4月間"},{"start":2410.013,"end":2428.691,"text":"判決有罪者達3萬264罪次那其中有兩罪判處無期徒刑56罪判處超過15年有期徒刑各高等法院跟分院同期間判決有罪者達4萬7948罪次32罪次"},{"start":2432.014,"end":2455.49,"text":"判處於15年有期徒刑那又各地方法院在105年7月到114年4月間的判處沒收的金額呢共計新台幣31億多那各高等法院跟分院同期間判處沒收的金額呢也有達到29億多那關於法院及"},{"start":2457.752,"end":2481.306,"text":"法官還有法院相關業務承辦人的教育訓練方面本院歷年呢都在法官學院開設有關於房攤廉政公務人員倫理價值跟行政中立等訓練課程跟研討會持續辦理法官還有相關人員的在職進修以增進專業能力那法官學院呢從一"},{"start":2482.306,"end":2501.979,"text":"1年到14年4月間共辦理了122次的課程時數322小時參訓人數6352人次那第三點本院政風處及所屬法院的政風機構都依相關的廉政工作規定辦理機關員工"},{"start":2503.8,"end":2522.888,"text":"貪瀆防制作業那至於其他非屬本院業務部分尊重各該主管機關的政策決定及貴院之立法裁量權以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位好 謝謝下一位我們請部長 鄭部長"},{"start":2531.196,"end":2555.152,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生今天奉要列席各位委員會就如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職之太陽級防治代表本部提出報告並被質詢一項說明本部統整檢查機關廉政署與調查局建構反貪腐法制推動透明治理執行樹灘行動方案形成反貪、反貪、樹灘網絡的現況敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2561.155,"end":2572.862,"text":"以廉政風險與貪瀆太陽的一個趨勢政府採購補助核發土地開發人士任用等業務具裁量空間涉及民間利益恐慌貪瀆風險本部與廉政所推動"},{"start":2574.195,"end":2601.055,"text":"機關定期風險評估透明經濟獎AI及大數據篩選高風險採購案專案即可檢視法制由不足落實反貪腐公約精神一三年度檢方偵辦貪圖一百三十八件涉案公務員兩百四十七人次以收賄罪為罪大中二法制面作為本部推動公益階幣者保護法完成施行細則的一個原理"},{"start":2601.795,"end":2619.267,"text":"研修公職人員財產申報法研議刑法饋贈罪影響利益交易罪及企業賄賂罪令針對企業賄賂罪持續進行前面的研議三執行面作為本部則曾抬高檢署監制打擊率能"},{"start":2621.786,"end":2641.82,"text":"打擊妨礙綠能產業發展犯罪聯繫平台整合資源分享偵辦經驗提升查緝效能地遷署主動接觸企業發掘步伐並與廉政署強化預警落實連結治理確保綠能發展自一一零零一月一日至一四三月三十一號指以偵辦"},{"start":2642.83,"end":2651.316,"text":"188案羈押38人起訴125人查過不好所得9800餘萬元自動繳回6100餘萬元不動產18匹車輛5輛等遞減屬於11年至113偵辦貪圖案件定罪率逐年提升本部會提升偵辦貪圖及金融經濟犯罪專業定期辦理研習會推動證照制要求辦人通過訓練取得證照"},{"start":2670.771,"end":2693.66,"text":"本部將強化法制與機制落實盤貪污公會推動跨部會與公司協力打造青年永續任性治理後指社會核心價值及國際競爭的以上報告敬請主席跟各位委員指教好謝謝那我們請教一下其提出書面報告的機關有沒有要口頭補充好"},{"start":2697.979,"end":2719.654,"text":"沒有的話 機關代表報告完畢我們相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2728.769,"end":2735.081,"text":"謝謝主席開始巡大一遷先請教一下主席我們請監察院來"},{"start":2738.305,"end":2761.909,"text":"大部分的資訊都從媒體知道所以他們現在的狀況到底是怎樣?不來是不是?沒有來,也沒有書面,都沒有其實這個我們都有通知啦我們在事前都有通知監察院但是祕書長不來,也沒有派別人過來,也沒有書面過來我們看到的是,其實這有點在羞辱立法院"},{"start":2763.018,"end":2790.641,"text":"那個我大概具體建議一下啦看是不是召委我們司法法制委員會發個文請監察院說明一下因為到昨天突然看到李俊逸辭職的消息嘛那他辭職歸他辭職啊那監察院總是還有副秘書長吧那監察院半個人都不派來是什麼意思那監察委員現在是覺得他們自己是太上黃機關嗎"},{"start":2792.403,"end":2816.939,"text":"他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹相關的資訊全體國人關心的全部都是從報章雜誌上面才能夠知道這個事情有蠻離譜的啦我是建議召委看會後的時候要不要透過這樣子的方式來加以處理因為我知道召委也蠻"},{"start":2818.151,"end":2841.488,"text":"蠻無無奈的嘛上個禮拜好像李俊逸是不是試圖有要跟你請假有 上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法"},{"start":2842.208,"end":2865.022,"text":"那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法准假,所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有啦"},{"start":2866.358,"end":2884.72,"text":"他要請假歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了"},{"start":2885.874,"end":2910.724,"text":"那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去函詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好 謝謝喔 那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署"},{"start":2925.243,"end":2945.049,"text":"三位早 時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了"},{"start":2954.051,"end":2976.465,"text":"行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊 在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法那在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好 廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了 山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫"},{"start":2981.318,"end":3008.128,"text":"結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查"},{"start":3009.281,"end":3029.351,"text":"回去查了以後 蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署 政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧"},{"start":3033.241,"end":3062.131,"text":"這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊所以我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是"},{"start":3063.376,"end":3091.963,"text":"推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來 請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下"},{"start":3093.7,"end":3117.347,"text":"推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很會寫教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密"},{"start":3118.839,"end":3137.326,"text":"現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情 對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的"},{"start":3138.306,"end":3160.026,"text":"那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以他的那個分工上他是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來 請警政署警政署報告"},{"start":3164.179,"end":3189.596,"text":"這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢"},{"start":3191.513,"end":3215.464,"text":"一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了啊監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會"},{"start":3218.368,"end":3237.254,"text":"說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊"},{"start":3238.806,"end":3254.337,"text":"結果爆出來了以後 還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長接著 搭公務車去看牙醫 蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個"},{"start":3259.856,"end":3281.395,"text":"這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長"},{"start":3287.046,"end":3304.02,"text":"這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的不是很清楚他不是都承認了"},{"start":3305.141,"end":3324.95,"text":"他承認的對阿 我的確思慮不周阿用公務車站愛犬去做寵物美容阿所以我現在就問你阿 這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪阿這個在偵查中的 那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講 可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見 是這樣嗎"},{"start":3336.124,"end":3363.901,"text":"不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢常在會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾"},{"start":3365.526,"end":3392.342,"text":"那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚"},{"start":3395.848,"end":3421.549,"text":"他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你 他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴 他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊 再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷"},{"start":3424.468,"end":3452.401,"text":"那個我不是在我那時候那時候你已經高升法務部了我在我已經離開台南地區OK很好台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車一樣起訴一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣"},{"start":3454.162,"end":3468.094,"text":"還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙"},{"start":3480.27,"end":3501.758,"text":"我講的是法規上的障礙 有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所 要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院 要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那要不要搜索 那是個案來做一個 是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊 有法規上的障礙嗎"},{"start":3503.038,"end":3521.239,"text":"刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單"},{"start":3523.656,"end":3531.38,"text":"這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會"},{"start":3553.349,"end":3580.492,"text":"應該會 應該會嘛有就有 沒有就沒有 怎麼你自己是法務部部長 自己都不熟因為要不要拍照 這不是訴訟性的事情 好 沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話 要不要就責 來 請教部長"},{"start":3582.493,"end":3605.667,"text":"這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛 好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的"},{"start":3607.413,"end":3632.97,"text":"喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去"},{"start":3634.725,"end":3643.995,"text":"2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題"},{"start":3646.345,"end":3668.32,"text":"可以嗎可以嗎需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個"},{"start":3669.381,"end":3695.956,"text":"有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究"},{"start":3697.028,"end":3718.686,"text":"部長 查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊好啊 我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員那你 你要不要敲一下欸喔 那就羅OK 好再麻煩羅 羅委員代理主席"},{"start":3731.84,"end":3750.637,"text":"請吳宗憲委員主席我先要做程序上的發言我這邊我先解釋清楚一下因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況那我想說我這邊先說明一下我們今天排的這個會議的"},{"start":3754.212,"end":3769.207,"text":"原因其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程當時並還沒發生監察院公務車使用的問題所以當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億"},{"start":3773.285,"end":3787.782,"text":"中央不發給的這個問題有沒有涉及到一流客扣罪所以我們因為一流客扣這個是刑法裡面公務員獨執罪章所以我們是希望說有利用今天的會議去了解整個流程所以我們先說明就是第一個我們這個會議它"},{"start":3789.204,"end":3812.875,"text":"有人說是不是在針對這個李俊毅秘書長事實上不是 這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這一段時間呢 世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來"},{"start":3815.134,"end":3828.186,"text":"好 OK 那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來"},{"start":3829.81,"end":3847.508,"text":"那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金 人民的納稅錢甚至"},{"start":3849.62,"end":3878.333,"text":"國安會組織條例第八條他就明確的寫明了 載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱"},{"start":3879.514,"end":3896.134,"text":"去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些"},{"start":3896.975,"end":3920.525,"text":"這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了結果今年連預算都不可以管了"},{"start":3921.806,"end":3946.672,"text":"就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長"},{"start":3947.985,"end":3959.933,"text":"難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想 假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我"},{"start":3963.095,"end":3991.622,"text":"那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的"},{"start":3992.802,"end":4016.693,"text":"準價我想說這整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長 法務部長副審計長 廉政署署長還有調查局局長"},{"start":4033.206,"end":4059.38,"text":"好 最後我再補充一下就是那個因為建安院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充好 那有請部長四位早安 四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長"},{"start":4063.396,"end":4084.205,"text":"署長我請問一下那因為這一次事情越鬧越大包括到秘書長都已經請辭了這個監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分這個政風他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道"},{"start":4085.126,"end":4106.56,"text":"我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對 上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好 那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一個比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用"},{"start":4107.14,"end":4121.69,"text":"公務車 其實後來都有判刑的記錄啦那我想齁 這一次 雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來 他是說因為這是涉及失誤 所以這個他們沒有調查 但是齁 我還是請"},{"start":4123.511,"end":4151.027,"text":"這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情"},{"start":4152.007,"end":4169.805,"text":"這個行為有可能違法 因為剛剛黃委員在問部長 說部長並沒有一個明確的說明 但是部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪一個條件 那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人 潛見 覺得 這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面 它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔"},{"start":4170.625,"end":4185.117,"text":"可能這幾條的範型啦那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面的夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦速貪那我這11年辦速貪的經驗"},{"start":4188.679,"end":4199.747,"text":"這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧"},{"start":4207.412,"end":4223.157,"text":"我想說那個背信詐欺這個追逐權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個調查局局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法"},{"start":4224.057,"end":4250.832,"text":"管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過"},{"start":4252.353,"end":4264.504,"text":"作弊不辦嘛 我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪 所以電腦局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條 既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題"},{"start":4269.129,"end":4282.604,"text":"這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載"},{"start":4284.285,"end":4306.888,"text":"譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容 這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下 讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況 好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院"},{"start":4307.469,"end":4319.918,"text":"他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑事訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員"},{"start":4321.215,"end":4346.387,"text":"跟委員報告一下 就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分 就是偵查的部分 我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了 所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中 如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話 我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分 就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會 它是偵查委員 監察委員的部分"},{"start":4346.807,"end":4368.526,"text":"那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會去到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了"},{"start":4368.826,"end":4397.033,"text":"那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情"},{"start":4397.453,"end":4414.151,"text":"但是我一直主張的是請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為違照文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候"},{"start":4415.049,"end":4443.923,"text":"犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎"},{"start":4444.463,"end":4464.414,"text":"好謝謝委員提醒我們會注意證據明確程序嚴謹跟保障人權是這部分再麻煩也不可以說違法詢問或者是中斷錄音或者是說去醫院視察結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以這在程序上面都違法的好那我再請教一下那個副審計長"},{"start":4471.932,"end":4486.062,"text":"我先簡單的說明一下一個問題啦就是這個公務車預算的執行啊這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎"},{"start":4487.323,"end":4513.843,"text":"個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理"},{"start":4514.684,"end":4537.266,"text":"好 謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查 該查辦就查辦 好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好 我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰 也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好 好不好那我在那個 請教副城議長"},{"start":4538.287,"end":4559.986,"text":"副縣長我想今年立法院有統三11個項目就是對於中央政府的統算我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除"},{"start":4562.909,"end":4573.82,"text":"刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是 沈院長一定很清楚這個點啦"},{"start":4576.786,"end":4598.384,"text":"這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複 它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律 我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那 對啊 但這段時間呢 被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師 或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律 他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼 這個什麼"},{"start":4600.646,"end":4620.462,"text":"溯及記網違反現在的保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及記網這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來"},{"start":4621.883,"end":4640.92,"text":"又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表"},{"start":4642.482,"end":4670.6,"text":"2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面民氣也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也"},{"start":4672.001,"end":4693.217,"text":"通過了這個預算的項目 然後啟動2025年的啟動經費 這個也都時序是這樣好 那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢 這個地方一般性補助款它的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪 三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效"},{"start":4697.689,"end":4708.46,"text":"當天也公佈了才化法 而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前我先講 在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸疾忌王這種沒水準的話出來那再來"},{"start":4711.161,"end":4727.242,"text":"2025年4月23號莫名其妙 主計總署就告訴行政院 給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢 本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候"},{"start":4728.343,"end":4747.378,"text":"問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段"},{"start":4747.978,"end":4766.572,"text":"所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是 我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的 我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出 業務費用 電費 國外旅費我們希望他遵截了一些費用 不希望他服邊結果他被砍了以後 他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢"},{"start":4769.614,"end":4786.985,"text":"副城長 你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對 你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億 你知道嗎"},{"start":4788.186,"end":4808.471,"text":"你知道這件事嗎 知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫"},{"start":4809.831,"end":4830.414,"text":"讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到"},{"start":4831.636,"end":4834.758,"text":"從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途"},{"start":4861.302,"end":4886.977,"text":"所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它 讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對 這個沈先生我有沒有講錯那所以呢今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代啊"},{"start":4888.1,"end":4906.206,"text":"那再來齁我剛提到的齁我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告這剛委員有一個時序表齁"},{"start":4907.694,"end":4932.788,"text":"比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只要問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見"},{"start":4933.888,"end":4960.813,"text":"因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼"},{"start":4962.313,"end":4983.646,"text":"你們餓死算了錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦窮人餓死算了啦我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣這竟然是主計長給的建議我就覺得我們是民主國家欸中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後那你就等餓肚子這個"},{"start":4984.907,"end":5006.144,"text":"不合道理嘛 所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼 才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文 卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊 你在中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配 你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去"},{"start":5006.704,"end":5034.793,"text":"去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的著於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給"},{"start":5035.433,"end":5061.841,"text":"也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議所以我在說這個補助辦法它的規定不是說不能夠調配但它的調配是依據各縣市它的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題它去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的"},{"start":5065.327,"end":5094.747,"text":"更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分"},{"start":5095.527,"end":5103.032,"text":"部長 局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理 內容我不問 怎麼爭吵我不問 請問有分案處理了嗎"},{"start":5104.731,"end":5126.452,"text":"這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好 謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個因為我們人 我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理 好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就"},{"start":5127.386,"end":5142.905,"text":"我們這個不能去手伸進去 但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了 你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎 上次104條 也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理 所以我就跟你們講"},{"start":5144.232,"end":5166.06,"text":"真的是從中央政府公佈的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說"},{"start":5167.34,"end":5184.35,"text":"隨隨便便亂用我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航這都不對好 謝謝各位"},{"start":5196.707,"end":5219.415,"text":"因為王複蜜另外還有藥物那待會王複蜜會先離開那下一位我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們先請廉政署麻煩署長"},{"start":5228.564,"end":5252.453,"text":"好 署長好 署長在你們的報告裡頭你們目前正在進行一個叫做高風險政府採購案件全國性專案集合的一個計畫正在進行中那嘗試透過人工智慧去找出比較高風險的這個政府採購的弊案有可能是這樣"},{"start":5253.593,"end":5267.473,"text":"那你們去結合了這一個公司登記就是你們叫做商工行政資料開放平台那也去結合了政府採購網然後也去結合了司法院裁判書的系統"},{"start":5269.011,"end":5284.354,"text":"那目前這個進行的狀況怎麼樣何委員報告我們因為廉政署的工作因為剛好委員間問我們要講說我們的工作其實是防灘 宿灘 再防灘防灘防灘是我們最優先的防止的防"},{"start":5285.095,"end":5299.011,"text":"所以說在防灘的這個工作上我們一直希望能夠再把那個觸角再往前延伸察覺到及早去察覺到風險的問題所以我們在這個今年度有透過AI的這個新的一個技術就是嘗試著"},{"start":5300.132,"end":5324.863,"text":"透過各個不同的跨領域的資料庫委員剛剛也那三個都是我們的一些資料庫還有其他的去做收集那我們針對一些已經出現的高風險的廠商去做一些相關的收集希望能夠針對到說比方委員剛剛講的那幾個部分就可以找到類似像是虛設行號人頭的一個公司還有一些是已經是拒絕往來的廠商"},{"start":5326.143,"end":5347.919,"text":"這個是你們去找到這些廠商下一步呢下一步就是去做 叫我們的政風單位針對那些可能疑似是風險的一些這些案件去做一個專案的集合就從中再發現說有沒有 因為剛剛只是風險再去看有沒有違標 綁標或者是其他的不實驗證你講的都是事後事前"},{"start":5348.82,"end":5370.048,"text":"事前的部分也是我們會針對這個部分的一些查到的資料去做一些防灘指引跟一些宣導跟一些訓練讓我們的機關的同仁知道說什麼是可以做的我舉一個例子喔是就是說你們現在假設你們發現了某一個廠商你們判斷他高風險是那這一個招標案件進行中進行中喔然後你們系統已經偵測到說這個高風險這家廠商高風險好那這個標案進行中"},{"start":5378.573,"end":5392.693,"text":"下一步呢跟委員講我們現在連政署針對我們的政風就對機關採購的部分都有專業的執照所以我們在這個部分會協助機關針對於採購案的這個部分上有什麼任何的不法或疑慮的話都會提醒機關來做處理提醒"},{"start":5394.631,"end":5405.356,"text":"如果有不法就會如果你們發現有高風險或者不法你們會提醒怎麼提醒他們也會列做如果真的有一些實證的話也會列入拒絕往來的廠商不是我是說這個標案進行中這個局處長"},{"start":5409.537,"end":5434.062,"text":"就是說你們譬如說各縣市有各個局處嘛各局處正標案正進行中有一個標案忽然間有一個你們原來就找到他可能是高風險然後他也來投標了那你們也找到了就是說他高風險那你們通知這個各縣市政風嗎那各縣市的政風處 政風室我們的政風會依照我們的廉政工作守則去強化那個監辦的作為"},{"start":5435.422,"end":5448.729,"text":"就是說他在這個採購上的一些作為會更加強化強化是說你怎麼樣去提醒這個首長也許這個首長不知道 我舉個例子比如說各縣市的局處在做這件事情縣市長不知道"},{"start":5449.571,"end":5458.98,"text":"對不對 先生講不知道喔 可是這明明就是已經是你們系統已經找到他高風險了喔而且他也正在進行中喔 那這個時候你們會做什麼這個會跟機關首長報告 進行中的也會 正在進行中機關只要察覺到機關風險 都會跟機關首長做通報就會做通報 那會不會打草驚蛇"},{"start":5472.493,"end":5499.195,"text":"當然我們會比較有技術性啦而且在這個機關上面來講原則上機關就是由機關首長來做一個這個算是主導嘛所以我們的相關東西都是看機關首長的一些決心跟作為所以我們原則上會協助機關首長來保護機關安全好那如果說這一個某一個單位他就他的這個單位的採購案接二連三假設他連續有兩三個案子都有問題"},{"start":5501.588,"end":5526.739,"text":"結果我們在各單位的這個政風人員可能在政風室的主任人員也沒發現都沒發現喔然後已經又過了一兩年喔然後這個案子都已經是最後被偵查到那是一個很嚴重的弊案喔我們對這政風室的人員或各縣市的政風處的人員我們廉政署會做什麼事啊"},{"start":5528.039,"end":5552.47,"text":"基本上連政署是負責政風人士的一個這個就是這個算是調派那也會對於業務上做監督指導那如果有相關上面裡面他們的一個作為上如果後來事後認定說真的是有一些疏失的部分的話我們也會當然會在這個升遷上以及是在這個業務上面或有行政處分上面都會去做"},{"start":5552.93,"end":5576.22,"text":"那這一個我剛剛為什麼一直提一條這個事前啊因為你剛剛說房貪嘛房子嘛那因為有一些是法盲嘛他不知道這件事情他不能做啦他不知道這件事情他不能做好我舉一個例子啦譬如說這個標案正在進行中那結果有廠商啊就找了這個局處長啊酒意吃飯"},{"start":5578.955,"end":5595.662,"text":"那這首長也不知道這傢伙要來投這個單位的案子喔他就去吃飯啦 好那吃飯之後啊 欸 我們的政風能源也知道然後我們最後呢 也有接獲人家的這個不管是什麼舉報或什麼什麼 諸如此類的反正我們政風能源就知道了結果那一個廠商也真的來投標了欸 也真的得標了 廉政署"},{"start":5604.827,"end":5628.743,"text":"遇到這種狀況 你覺得你要提醒你們的政風人員或者你們要提醒這些首長啊就是說我剛剛講這個首長 上面的那個首長你們會做什麼事情啊跟委員報告 其實廉政署執掌的這個法規裡面有利益衝突迴避法然後我們也有這個廉政的這個倫理的一個這個守則所以針對一些相關的部分 該去怎麼做 然後該怎麼樣登錄"},{"start":5631.625,"end":5657.723,"text":"我們都會去詳細的告訴機關包括首長他們都會知道該怎麼樣的一個分級那如果他真的有這樣的一個作為的話我們如果提醒不行的話那如果接下來就會有一些委員剛剛講的已經去標了甚至產生一些弊端他就會違反到立衝的一個規定我們現在立衝也會針對關係人事先去做一些就是說揭露就如果他還是比方說是這個有這樣的一個關係人的一個利益交易上面的話"},{"start":5658.183,"end":5673.902,"text":"那這個部分上有可能就會違反立衝法那就是法律的問題了好我再給你一個建議你們現在在處理這個系統啊這個政府的電子採購網啊你們裡頭一直強調的叫做廠商人頭公司"},{"start":5675.267,"end":5694.346,"text":"我再給一個建議 多連結一件事情就是這一個得標廠商的地址跟電話地址跟電話啦 因為他可能設了不同的名字或者是這一家公司已經被拒絕往來但是他同一個地址 同一個聯絡的電話"},{"start":5696.408,"end":5712.107,"text":"他還是那家廠商就這個圈子都知道就是那一家只是他換了一個名字這一個連結可能建議你們要來注意第二個你們這一個報告是公開資訊嗎我們這個立法院的部分公開資訊公開啊"},{"start":5716.837,"end":5738.183,"text":"公開資訊 因為你們進行中啦 還沒有結論成果的部分當然我們現在收集到的這些標案大概會請他們再去做集合大概預計在10月或者是年底的部分會出來成果的一個評估啦那我們都看得到 國人都看得到成果的部分是不會公開啦"},{"start":5738.803,"end":5756.124,"text":"但是這個目前的這個宣導的這個部分跟教導政風的這個部分會好那你們該公開就公開也不要把你們的所有的手法都跟所有的廠商講這也是很奇怪的事情那這個尊重你們好接下來我們請審計部的副審計長謝謝"},{"start":5762.854,"end":5780.405,"text":"副審計長好這個審計單位每年都會針對這個前一年的這些狀況去做相關的審計那我請問一下各個不管是中央地方都有這些所謂的配車或者是公務車那如果一個直轄市的首長假日平日"},{"start":5790.106,"end":5798.753,"text":"坐著他的公務車跑去找廠商處理相關的這個容積率可能會圖利假日平日喔 坐著他的公務車審計單位如果發現你會怎麼處理"},{"start":5814.96,"end":5841.208,"text":"跟委員報告就是一般如果個案在處理的時候我們都是以派車單的登載內容來看但是委員剛剛特別提醒的就是那些太陽其實那些太陽的資訊我們沒辦法掌握啦就是他個人實際的行程我懂我懂我的意思是說你們剛剛有提到說你們沒辦法去處理一個通案就是說通案"},{"start":5841.636,"end":5849.826,"text":"因為各個單位的規定都不太一樣有些單位是這個車配給你的連你要開回家都可以"},{"start":5850.697,"end":5864.805,"text":"那假日呢 你的首長 你不怕司機 你自己開這台公務車回家有些單位是可以這樣 對不對那有些單位呢 接送首長完了之後再怎麼演 這台公務車還是要開回那一個單位那這一個對審計單位來說啊你們就很簡單 他們怎麼規定那你們到時候做相關審計的時候你們就去看他那一個規定嘛 對不對"},{"start":5876.491,"end":5903.765,"text":"好 那如果說這個單位規定說這台車 啊好你就好你啊啦反正呢 他就跟你講說你就是公務使用嘛齁那公務的這個範圍啊 見仁見智是見仁見智嘛對對那公務的範圍見仁見智 那過去也有發生一些案例啊 譬如說有一些人啊 就是說他也是這一個假日啊 他自己開車 開這台公務車啊 去找他伯娘"},{"start":5904.656,"end":5926.728,"text":"他說我有付郵費啊我高速公路的ETC的錢我也有繳啊後來就不知道怎麼樣的後來這個新聞就沒再報導了站在審計單位的立場這一種已經配給那個首長的這台車啊這個首長假日自己開還是晚上出去下班啊自己開 開出去然後去做"},{"start":5932.465,"end":5961.004,"text":"外界認為是私人可是他可能認為這是公務然後最後他就自己付了油費付了高速公路的通行費站在審計單位的立場你這個答案很重要因為現在很多人在看因為現在有被配車的單位的人很多你要一次講清楚就是說到底這些事情可不可以做假日喔 首長自己開著配車"},{"start":5962.551,"end":5975.126,"text":"跑去做他認為是公務外界認為是私人行程的這個然後他繳了油費繳了這高速公路的通行費那請問在審計單位立場會怎麼處理"},{"start":5977.793,"end":6002.012,"text":"跟委員報告現在目前為止我們最上位的是公務車的管理手冊的規定針對首長、次首長專用車到底專用到什麼程度沒有統一的規定這個也就是會變成個案會審酌不是啦你沒有統一規定怎麼個案啊這個規定跟委員報告這個規定是這個首長我都要講這個首長他認為我這是公務啊"},{"start":6006.601,"end":6022.399,"text":"我這是公務啊,外界認為說這哪有公務,這是私人行程,這哪有公務啊到現在回來回去的時候,你省區單位可能說我也沒什麼意見,沒什麼規定來來來,那我問廉政署好不好,廉政署,來來來這個怎麼辦,有人檢舉啦,我舉例說有人檢舉,然後呢"},{"start":6029.545,"end":6055.135,"text":"這個首長可能就被你們請來了所以你幾月幾號 你就自己開這台公務車走去 假設好 你是一個台北市的官員你開車開去台中那你說我去台中市政考察我去看台中做得怎麼樣啊 我不行他認為這是公務然後這個首長認為 外界會認為這是私人廉政署下一步會是什麼"},{"start":6056.323,"end":6070.539,"text":"委員報告其實目前因為這幾個案件現在是在北檢的一個偵查中那個案的部分我們就不太去說那在於這個監察院內部他的監察委員的部分他是自律的"},{"start":6070.879,"end":6085.928,"text":"沒有啦我沒有講監察委員然後如果說是一般的公務的部分我們的行政院是有車輛使用的一個規定那其他的院都有自己一個相關的規定所以很簡單就是你們按照每一個機關每一個單位他們的規定去辦"},{"start":6086.533,"end":6110.399,"text":"就是他們會有一個使用車輛的一個部分 我們會針對那個部分去看對 因為也許每一個縣市也都長不一樣那有些縣市它有些人 有些機關的處長 局長他是專遷專遷這個車子就變成你可以用嘛 對不對 審計單位就是各單位他們有他們自己的規定那對廉政署來說 到所有人檢舉了"},{"start":6111.539,"end":6135.495,"text":"你們就是看這個規定嘛 對不對看這個規定 這個單位說可以就是可以這個單位說不可以就可能會有貪瀆的問題嘛目前上面在法律的適用上面通盤上比較多的是背信跟詐欺跟侵佔然後加134條的一個部分比較多的以往的一個判決的一個結果是這樣子"},{"start":6136.636,"end":6147.889,"text":"所以說圖利罪的話會不會成立 這個得比較看官員要見那署長你覺不覺得我剛問的這一些 不管是公務車 配車 專屬的什麼車行要不要全國訂一台 全機的"},{"start":6153.615,"end":6162.362,"text":"你不能說受困 大家都自己頂自己的 自己頂自己的 到時候他可能換單位他不能在這個縣市 奇怪我在這個縣市當首長 當局處長我們那個縣市就可以 奇怪我換這個縣市 我用我以前的經驗來到這裡即使這一個政風單位在我上任的時候也告訴我說我們的規定是這樣 一分給你嘛"},{"start":6177.193,"end":6183.338,"text":"可是我印象中可以啊 結果我去幹了這個事情後來才發現說 原來這個管制不行啦這個事情 最後啦 我建議這個連政署或者是部長也在嘛或者是這個審計單位 大家參詳一下看專攻齁 要整頓好 要不然大家都要飛都要飛 這些事情其實是很麻煩的啦"},{"start":6203.183,"end":6215.498,"text":"好不好 這個你們研究一下 你也不用答覆我 好不好這個就是讓全國的公務員有一個依循的依據啦因為有時候公務員派公務車出去我請問一下 他如果去外面飛行到12點半 幾輪公務車去吃中毒"},{"start":6223.306,"end":6226.107,"text":"幾多公務車去吃中午茶,吃到兩點半、三點,回到辦公室,叫他去用汽車,說這公務人員,12點半、1點、2點,還在餐廳吃飯,幾多公務車是在衝什麼,"},{"start":6240.846,"end":6244.829,"text":"我們廢棄到12點半,我們吃飯吃到2點這到時候,這社會觀感是這樣,新聞一出來,相片一出來後面調查之後說沒問題因為全部都照規矩來,沒問題這些公務員"},{"start":6256.676,"end":6274.558,"text":"他的臉、他的名字都已經在媒體上,無處聲援的啦,那都可能一、兩個月後才發現,其實他沒有怎麼樣啦這個我建議,就是...主管委員最後報告,就是說有不法的部分,都會依法去交給地檢署,或有貪瀆會交給廉政署"},{"start":6274.978,"end":6298.668,"text":"那至於說我們會針對這一個公務車的這一個部分公車使用,我們會編那個防灘指引再一次的去提醒各機關,就是針對於這個公車使用的部分的一個界限跟分際OK,最好給大家一個指引啦,不然各單位自己打招呼不過我跟你講,有些公務員第一,可能是法門第二,他搞不清楚,第三,各單位規定因為也不一樣"},{"start":6299.548,"end":6314.063,"text":"所以我們譬如說像我們最近這些案子我們就要去查那個單位的公務車使用規定因為每一個一定都不一樣啦你別說五院長不一樣啦各部位可能也都長不一樣啦這個規定都不同好不好好 大家一起加油 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那下一位我們請審發會委員發言"},{"start":6333.585,"end":6359.86,"text":"主席我想今天我看今天我們這個安排這個主題如何落實清廉政府及公務員獨職的樣態與防制這個安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急不是不是我剛剛有說明我知道你剛剛有說明我現在就要就你剛剛說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水說原本原本你要安排的是這個"},{"start":6361.041,"end":6388.911,"text":"有關這個對地方政府一般補助對而且你還說一個因為你們開會我不知道召委排案是要開什麼會應該是你們國民黨我們自己國民黨有我們國民黨的做法那我想說我們是對一流客寇這是刑法獨職罪犯你本來安排這個而且我看你的質詢裡面你花了一倍的就已經超時一倍的時間就在講這個對地方政府補助反而你沒有在講今天的主題如何落實青年政府這個講的比較少前面有講"},{"start":6390.271,"end":6414.826,"text":"那所以應該這個題目,這樣我認知你是臨時改的啦你可能是,你們國民黨我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣,我這個人說話就是這樣這個間諜欣喜,然後就施設刑堂,想要在這邊施設刑堂把人找來在這裡,本來這可能是針鋒單位在進行事實的調查但是你們就一定要把人,在事實調查出來之前要把"},{"start":6415.746,"end":6437.707,"text":"當事人找來這裡施設刑堂然後羞辱一番這個當然當然他這個自己犯錯他要付出代價這個是一件事但是我看我剛聽起來就是這樣他說你說本來要排一般性補助款結果後來你也沒有說明理由為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員堵車太陽之防制這個我就不是很清楚我剛有講你聽不懂"},{"start":6438.007,"end":6459.924,"text":"我說一流克扣刑法獨執罪章,所以我剛剛問的內容也是跟636億有關嘛好沒關係,我尊重你的想法我也尊重主席的排案權,我只是認為說這種案件一發生然後都在調查程序中,就要把當事人調來這裡然後設一個刑堂,在這裡拷問他"},{"start":6462.226,"end":6482.275,"text":"這個我是覺得我個人是不太苟同這樣子把這個委員會我們寶貴的委員會時間拿來做這種這個政治利益的計算個人是很不太能苟同不過這個是召委的排案權我這邊不評論那我現在我們請這個廉政署署長麻煩廉政署署長署長"},{"start":6489.929,"end":6501.44,"text":"不好意思我這個人比較守規矩既然召委立了這種題目我們就就事論事就這個題目來如何落實青年政府及公務員堵值是太陽的防治我們就針對這個主題來討論這個"},{"start":6506.294,"end":6525.325,"text":"我們現在聯證署組織法裡面,我們關於聯證署所主長的事項,包括貪污預防事項及推動執行,在我們法務部聯證署組織法第二條裡面有規定發款,這都是我們的權責。聯證署成立到現在已經10年了。100年成立,所以14年。"},{"start":6527.226,"end":6549.777,"text":"14年喔14年喔那14年這14年來事實上我國這14年來之後我看這14年這純就統計數字啦齁這個民間感受是有一次但我純就統計數字看起來我們的這個我們廉政的這個國際評比狀況是這14年來是提升還是下降國際的評比跟委員報告齁其實我們從100年開始喔他的那個我們在以"},{"start":6550.217,"end":6565.608,"text":"比較大的國際青年影響指數這個做來做說明在一開始的時候我們國家的名次大概是61分37名然後隨著時間的推移到30 31名然後大概是63分65分左右"},{"start":6566.048,"end":6592.321,"text":"最近我們已經到25名然後67、68這個分數跟名次所以整體來講我們是一直在進步在180個國家跟地區裡面我們目前86以上一直不斷的媒體都報導就一直不斷的有相關的這個貪圖等等這些情勢各案發生這個人民當然感受會覺得說現在好像跟以前還是一樣但其實我們時間拉長來看包括國際的評比"},{"start":6593.542,"end":6614.131,"text":"包括我們看過去國民黨執政的時候那種貪腐的樣子到現在大家回頭來看事實上台灣的這個廉政是有整體而言是有大幅的進步但是這個進步當然我們不能說因為進步了所以我們就很自滿這個進步我們還是要來看目前的我們還有什麼地方必須要加強"},{"start":6615.56,"end":6640.76,"text":"那我看我特別來找了我們就這個我們有一個叫做國家廉政建設行動方案它是按照這個聯合國反貪腐公約的施行法第四條它的授權的這個我請問一下署長我們這個國家廉政建設行動方案它是法規嗎還是行政指導它的定位是什麼"},{"start":6642.202,"end":6665.234,"text":"他是行政規則,他在98年訂定,他當時是把幾個像是端正陣風、掃除黑金的一些把它整合起來,然後變成國家聯合建設的行政方案所以他是一個行政規則嘛,對不對那你們這個行政規則裡面的第四項,有關具體作為的部分你們有一個副表,副表裡面有關績效目標的部分,這部分我有幫你們框出來"},{"start":6666.394,"end":6693.642,"text":"你們有提到說各機關每年就機關的整體業務要辦理廉政的風險評估是全面整體性的檢視現況請問這個我們這些這個廉政風險評估我們有定期公開嗎定期公開沒有定期公開沒有定期公開對那這個目前的一個績效大概都是完成率大概都在93%左右我知道就是你們都有請他們做一個評估但評估出來的東西到底是什麼"},{"start":6694.727,"end":6718.662,"text":"外界也不得而知再來你們有做的廉政風險評估那你們有沒有具體的改善或者是強化的措施我們也看不到這部分我是希望說我們廉政署能夠考慮是不是將這些定期的風險評估能夠公開或者是你們能夠做一個統整"},{"start":6721.003,"end":6738.238,"text":"這個相關的風險評估讓國人能夠了解他之前是 現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們在研議在研議啦如果說你們認為公開上面有"},{"start":6739.119,"end":6760.23,"text":"有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個"},{"start":6762.071,"end":6786.311,"text":"法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年"},{"start":6788.12,"end":6813.234,"text":"你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在138件 對對對對 我就指這個你們這個統計的結果你們就說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多這是第一點 地方行政機關居多第二點是職等是兼任委任約聘僱居多"},{"start":6815.576,"end":6838.144,"text":"這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪圖風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在"},{"start":6839.204,"end":6863.602,"text":"目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候"},{"start":6865.003,"end":6881.887,"text":"他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計"},{"start":6890.009,"end":6914.476,"text":"他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督"},{"start":6916.621,"end":6934.286,"text":"所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠"},{"start":6936.556,"end":6953.776,"text":"主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的這個指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好"},{"start":6954.256,"end":6980.854,"text":"那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這一個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊來做這個部分這樣子太主觀了你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題"},{"start":6986.357,"end":7002.045,"text":"這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關"},{"start":7005.193,"end":7010.78,"text":"有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現花蓮文化局局長社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆"},{"start":7021.502,"end":7036.697,"text":"像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有"},{"start":7036.977,"end":7054.942,"text":"去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案"},{"start":7064.565,"end":7082.652,"text":"那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中"},{"start":7083.992,"end":7099.971,"text":"這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為社級不適合交特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個"},{"start":7102.898,"end":7129.912,"text":"2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車"},{"start":7131.94,"end":7138.25,"text":"那這個但是這個他濫用公共車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁"},{"start":7139.366,"end":7164.943,"text":"就是盧秀燕 盧秀燕表示說我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這是盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年 這個是不是能夠去了解署長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案 有沒有調查其他 我看其他台南市"},{"start":7165.984,"end":7179.305,"text":"台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還被判刑了台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係"},{"start":7181.018,"end":7203.656,"text":"跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的那所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政啦我們一向的態度就是說他如果有"},{"start":7204.116,"end":7225.044,"text":"我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經相當已經這個這個深於完備了但是我們在執行面上面包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些這些這個廉政單位他的雙軌制他必須同時接受地方首長"},{"start":7226.072,"end":7246.378,"text":"的指揮監督跟接受上級政府單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位謝謝委員我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作所的措施然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":7260.598,"end":7280.483,"text":"主席有請這個法務部長還有廉政署署長好 麻煩法務部長 廉政署署長羅委員 那個立委是要監督官員不是護航的喔喔 呵呵呵我現在咳嗽 不要讓我笑好 有請 請教一下這個"},{"start":7283.403,"end":7305.114,"text":"監察院的李靜玉秘書長他用公務車接送愛犬美容還把公務車刀成Uber E-way自家送餐那他用一句思慮不周然後本來想交代過去但看火越燒越大不敢到立法院接受質詢就坦誠有負職務廉潔標準然後匆匆請辭秘書長"},{"start":7309.736,"end":7329.759,"text":"那我剛剛也看到前面有多位委員針對公務車使用的部分,大家有很多的一些意見跟看法。那我想請教一下,部長跟署長你們都有配公務車嘛,對不對?有。先請問署長好了,請問您會把公務車拿去送愛泉美容嗎?"},{"start":7330.882,"end":7359.099,"text":"我也沒有養狗沒有養狗不會做私人的事情不會做私人事那所以也不會把公務車拿去當Uber E-way自家送餐嗎我們完全遵照行政院辦的車輛使用規定不可能的事情對不對 部長這應該不用問你們這兩件事都不可能在你身上發生吧我沒有養狗你就算有養狗有養寵物也不會發生這種事吧這個不會這樣對嘛 不可能嘛"},{"start":7360.7,"end":7382.893,"text":"我跟各位講 剛剛不管是藍綠的委員 白的委員 都有講標準問題但有些東西就是真的是離譜把公務車拿去送愛犬去美容 把公務車拿來當Uber E我也當過 我也有派過公務車 我在總務府當副秘書長的時候 這也不可能發生的事情"},{"start":7384.209,"end":7403.445,"text":"那我不知道為什麼我們的偉大的李俊逸就會發生這種事情但是沒有關於他個人的行為我們今天問的是法律的問題事實上過去很多關於公務車使用的一些案例那我們來看看他的法律的結果是什麼我來請教兩位首長"},{"start":7405.455,"end":7432.651,"text":"我想請教一下剛剛兩位都說你們不會把公務車拿來做私人的使用當作私人汽車使用不會嘛 對不對那你知道雲林縣2021年有一位戴姓的消防局長他被指將局長坐車當作私人汽車使用遭監察院彈劾那你知道最後法律的結果是什麼嗎他面臨什麼樣法律的結果請問部長知道嗎"},{"start":7434.919,"end":7449.088,"text":"這個我不清楚我告訴你懲戒法院判他休職兩年刑事部分依公務員假借職務上機會犯背信罪判刑一年緩刑三年這是這個案例的結果"},{"start":7450.168,"end":7469.368,"text":"那2021年也發生一個台北市警局交通分隊的歐姓小隊長騎公務車 機車與友人參與後 又騎車返家休息那我想請問署長 你知道他最後的法律結果是什麼嗎"},{"start":7472.171,"end":7499.036,"text":"檢察官認為他涉犯公務員假借植物機會背信罪那因為認罪無前科啦所以給予還起訴一年然後再來2021年台南市政府民族事務委員會主委汪志敏因為搭乘公務車前往大學進修參加婚宴、壽宴、私人餐敘我想請教一下請問那個署長你會搭公務車到"},{"start":7500.616,"end":7504.439,"text":"參加所謂大學進修嗎會去參加婚宴嗎搭公務車原則上不會我們部長會嗎這個要看那個業務的一個性質看業務性質有點模糊空間啦會搭公務車去參加壽宴嗎"},{"start":7525.547,"end":7541.4,"text":"這個就是要看業務性質如果是這個這個受驗的話這個屬於那個機關業務聯繫有關的這些的話那當然那會搭公務車參加私人餐敘嗎私人餐敘這個不會搭公務車當私人餐敘那你也要看這餐敘性質啦對不對"},{"start":7544.244,"end":7571.919,"text":"部長我跟你講 我沒有價值判斷這些行為到底是該不該當所謂的一個形式的一個犯罪所以我才問說兩位你們處理的規則是什麼那很明顯不會搭公共車去大學進修嘛 對不對不會啦 就算有這個進修的機會也不會搭公共車去大學進修嘛但是婚宴 壽宴 私人參許那可能就要看業務性質屬性了嘛 對不對但是"},{"start":7573.168,"end":7578.835,"text":"台南地檢署是以背信罪提起公訴這件事情 然後判處20萬罰金再來 2022年屏東縣警察局"},{"start":7587.965,"end":7605.271,"text":"莊信芬局長在休假期間駕駛公務車到南投縣等地訪友及採購物品我想請問一下署長你會在休假期間駕著公務車去外縣市訪友然後採購物品嗎"},{"start":7608.104,"end":7634.089,"text":"市議上我上下班都是自己開車啦我們的公務車的部分運用上我們會嚴守用公務的部分來判斷非常謝謝 部長呢也是嘛 不會嘛 對不對不會嘛 然後他也被拔官移送地檢署偵辦然後2023年基隆市警察局無信保防科長使用公務車接送七小兩位會用公務車接送七小嗎"},{"start":7635.253,"end":7662.679,"text":"不會啦 對不對不會嘛 對不對所以這個也是一條線嘛那他也被依詐欺罪移送基隆地檢署偵辦2024年監察院通過彈劾金房部林姓參謀長因為他讓到金門遊玩的親友搭公務車你會讓你的親友出去玩搭公務車嗎也不會嘛連問都不用問嘛 對不對這不可能的事嘛他公器私用被彈劾啦"},{"start":7663.439,"end":7680.974,"text":"然後今年1月 松山分局的張姓袁景 開公務車繞道送蛋糕給過生日的女友然後想請問 會開公務車繞道送蛋糕給夫人嗎 會不會 也不會嘛 也不會嘛 對不對 會嗎 也不會嘛 對不對"},{"start":7688.018,"end":7709.872,"text":"那可是呢 這個行為就遭到台北地檢署 依公務員違背職務損害他的利益等罪 給予緩起訴處分 需繳酷一萬元我跟你講 這太多啦 我講不完啦 我講不完啦可是今天為什麼我要講這件事情我跟部長 跟我們的署長講 確實我承認啦 剛剛前面有幾位委員也有講到"},{"start":7711.072,"end":7735.43,"text":"他有一些標準的問題 好比方你剛剛講參敘那跟參敘到底跟你的業務關聯度是如何可能他有點模糊地帶要釐清對不對可是這零零總總我跟你講我沒有看到比載愛犬去美容把車 公務車當Uber E大概在所有攤檔裡面 這兩個我們李俊逸最扯欸 沒錯吧"},{"start":7737.318,"end":7763.027,"text":"你去參敘齁 你還可以講說這參敘跟我業務也有關係啊 對不對那你參加婚宴 壽宴我也可以說跟我業務也有關係啊 對不對部長你可能也覺得說這個可能跟業務有關係啊可是你把你的愛犬拿去用公車去美容我想要請問署長囉按照這些通通被判刑 通通被法辦的標準你今天要不要被判啊"},{"start":7764.93,"end":7788.009,"text":"委員報告 目前這幾個案件都有告發到台北地檢署我真的就是要看著啦因為太離譜嘛確實我剛才還是強調前面很多的委員在講公車使用有每個地方的標準規則可能不一樣但是沒有一個地方會跟你講說我可以帶著愛犬去美容啦應該沒有這個標準吧署長"},{"start":7789.431,"end":7812.367,"text":"不會有這個標準吧標準就是要符合公務啦就是跟公務有關對啊 所以我今天在這邊我要跟部長說外界確實在看著這件事情你有些邊緣地帶大家還要再去觀察一下因為這還要釐清比如釐清餐敘的性質 釐清活動的性質 對不對"},{"start":7814.469,"end":7842.028,"text":"送狗 送牠的愛犬去美容把車子 公務車當Uber E來去用我看也不用去釐清什麼性質啦純粹就是公器私用如果別的人公器私用都沒事 我覺得那是一回事但是很抱歉 我剛剛念了那麼多還沒念完呢那麼多的案例裡面我就要問到底李俊逸這個我們這個是怎麼樣他是把這個"},{"start":7843.561,"end":7868.145,"text":"把這個他家的愛犬也當成監察委員了嗎也當成是在去經辦業務嗎所以因此在這邊我們是要看看到底我們今天我們的檢方啊現在已經告發了嘛 廉政署這邊也接到告發了嘛對不對沒有 那是民眾 就是直接民代直接到北檢去告發對啊 所以大家就等著看啦"},{"start":7869.437,"end":7894.041,"text":"如果我剛剛念的這些都有事情的話我真的就要等著看李靜韻到底有沒有事情啊不是持官就了事 沒錯吧請問部長這種法律的刑事問題不是持官就結束的嘛那這個就是由檢察官來做了解調查對不對 我想問署長如果犯了所謂的不連結貪污或者是背信一些刑事上的一些公務員獨職的問題辭職就可以 責任就結束了嗎"},{"start":7899.431,"end":7920.083,"text":"官委員報告他的案件調查其實要看構成要件因為在之前有很多的案子其實是有移送然後判刑也有一些沒有移送他的標準你完全講到重點了完全的標準就是說他有一個用點我告訴你你完全講到重點了那標準真的浮動啊"},{"start":7921.052,"end":7946.269,"text":"不是 跟委員講 就是他其中有一個我剛剛有一個 我沒有問的2018年時任移民署長 就中央級官員然後帶著妻子搭乘公務車旅遊 你知道他的結果是什麼就辭職而已 對不對所以我就要講 同樣的情形在地方的時候 他就判刑"},{"start":7947.25,"end":7974.621,"text":"那中央好像奇怪啦 就沒事啦跟委員報告一下 他那個在車輛使用上他有首長的一個用車的一個部分還有一般派遣的部分那派遣的部分會有派車單跟油料的一個問題那所以說在這個部分上會比較有牽涉到那個就相關我們剛剛談到的那個部分當然首長的部分也必須要去觀察啦是不是有公務員的違法我當然知道啦 我就說過齁如果有些派讓齁"},{"start":7975.942,"end":7998.903,"text":"就像我剛剛講餐巿、壽宴、婚宴那中間你到底他算跟你業務的關聯度如何啊那是有個案要去釐清啦這一點我也認同啦可是就像剛剛前面兩位講的嘛我們在質詢過程當中不用再為禁慾再去找任何的一些緩狹的空間了啦這兩件事情就赤裸裸的公器私用已經是踩到底了啦"},{"start":8000.302,"end":8024.546,"text":"我跟你講我還是那句話我剛念那麼多的案例沒有比他更離譜的啦有嗎有哪個比送狗去美容離譜的哪一個有比送狗去美容離譜的把車子當Uber Eats離譜的有一個警察也就是騎著車拎個蛋糕去給女朋友就有事啦他有像我們李靖鈺帶著狗去美容嗎"},{"start":8027.011,"end":8046.829,"text":"他是繞個路送個蛋糕去 也有事啊所以不要說今天這公務車當然標準 說真的 大家好好去想想標準不一致的問題也是個問題可是有些核心的地帶就是明顯有 按照過去這些判準判例我真的拜託啦 檢查機關"},{"start":8049.088,"end":8068.433,"text":"不要讓大家覺得說好像又遇到民進黨的要員李靜韻是民進黨的要員喔大佬喔遇到民進黨的要員又沒事了重點是今天質詢完因為辦案還需要時間啦對不對辦辦辦一個月兩個月半年之後一年之後"},{"start":8070.355,"end":8094.369,"text":"發現風頭過了 悄悄悄悄又沒事了這是我們經常會有人覺得說今天辦案標準不一致讓大家會對司法沒有信心一個原因所以拜託啦 努力一點好不好這是請署長跟部長能夠去看看社會大眾的期待以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":8108.416,"end":8125.285,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部正部長麻煩部長我們調查局陳局長陳局長我們人事總署我們培訓的今天人總也有來人總代表請上來一下 部長"},{"start":8126.698,"end":8151.131,"text":"不好意思 很白問你 問的差不多是一些個案 問你也沒意思其實剛剛在前面幾位委員所的質詢 我也都表達尊重確實監察院是一個監察跟糾舉 彈劾 都是彈劾別人的地方當然對象是別人 針對於監察院自己 確實是守住這個分寸"},{"start":8153.032,"end":8176.792,"text":"民眾也會這樣的一個要求啦那今天我看到李俊俊秘書長他也勇於認錯也辭職啦在官場裡面就辭掉了那其實就等於是人頭落地嘛那其實也是表達最大的一個態度啦那至於個案其實本院很多委員在這邊指指點點意義其實也不大就給"},{"start":8179.008,"end":8202.764,"text":"我們依法該怎麼去處理人就怎麼去處理但是我倒會覺得另外一個問題涉及到比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的我反而會覺得更可怕因為畢竟按照我們整個個資法第53條的規定華務部是應該會同中央目的事業主管機關去訂定特定目的跟個人資料類別"},{"start":8203.604,"end":8214.45,"text":"提供公務機關跟非公務機關來倉庫做使用就是說各自要怎麼贏這好不容易跟人家領一些職員啦現在主管機關當然不是你們啦但問題是這職員到底要怎麼做我現在看到幾個機關以後我看的都是提心吊膽為什麼這樣講咧就是說老百姓各自最大的風險"},{"start":8226.616,"end":8231.46,"text":"以世衛大眾的看法是說 喔 詐騙集團 會想哭喔 會被人家拘捕 拘災散最近發生的 未必 現在最大的風險在政府機關啦政府機關會給人家洩密 政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資那本來呢"},{"start":8248.737,"end":8259.079,"text":"政府啊 掌握這麼多老百姓的個資啊你也要好好保護他們才對我都一直認為沒有特別重要的目的到"},{"start":8260.051,"end":8278.217,"text":"要制定法律來授權以外要收取任何老百姓的個資這都不對啊這都不對啊我還記得市要委員還在那個地方我當年在當台北市議員的時候我們台北市以前在訂定那個自治條例就設置那個監視錄影器那個部分我是帶頭反對我是帶頭反對"},{"start":8280.758,"end":8284.721,"text":"本來就沒有那麼多 後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多支新北匯更多 那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的 當然"},{"start":8292.165,"end":8309.536,"text":"敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通"},{"start":8311.437,"end":8331.783,"text":"但是呢 把大量的資訊 老百姓的行蹤 各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話 這就很糟糕譬如說 大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的 大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念"},{"start":8333.163,"end":8342.909,"text":"這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮"},{"start":8346.107,"end":8351.728,"text":"你看 這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法 原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛他也問說是不是你簽的 花蓮 欸 沒 直接夭壽的民政處長的帶頭違法這個標準的就是查水表啦叫護證人員 叫IU去按門鈴 問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人"},{"start":8371.074,"end":8378.119,"text":"這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投 附證資料現在保證機關自己會去發明"},{"start":8393.63,"end":8404.874,"text":"自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個捕破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍"},{"start":8416.718,"end":8425.707,"text":"你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個比對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦 非常糟糕那第三個 你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門report你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇"},{"start":8441.952,"end":8449.66,"text":"我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方"},{"start":8451.434,"end":8459.019,"text":"也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你都知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團"},{"start":8476.058,"end":8486.838,"text":"保護人民 政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民 這哪通這種不法是更可怕"},{"start":8489.358,"end":8510.492,"text":"任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊 多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來富有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說 柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊 你法務部"},{"start":8514.475,"end":8522.906,"text":"你不是主管機關,但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔,這是你們的慷慨啦,你也說兩句給大家評判一下,你們看不見他怎麼樣比較好,我等一下還要問人總,你人總我看你培訓的失敗,"},{"start":8531.229,"end":8555.515,"text":"失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不跟你講謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是我知道以法務部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這種偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然"},{"start":8558.456,"end":8575.664,"text":"竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的有維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個"},{"start":8579.466,"end":8592.88,"text":"一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦 我覺得補充應該就是"},{"start":8597.008,"end":8613.115,"text":"這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說頂一個指引料去跟他們說人總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說"},{"start":8613.882,"end":8615.983,"text":"其實在培訓的過程裡面,你也有很多網站,現在都在說AI,你們在說的就有很多人,我看你們都二十幾萬人在看你們各自的這個你們也應該去上網,創一個比較有趣的,讓公務人員去知道,唉唷夭壽這不行喔,這個是設法"},{"start":8632.274,"end":8657.952,"text":"這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於你像譬如說去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的貧乏的部分是不是該想想也想想辦法"},{"start":8659.885,"end":8681.698,"text":"是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500"},{"start":8689.602,"end":8697.165,"text":"515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦"},{"start":8718.353,"end":8740.772,"text":"這也不好啦 因為畢竟公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說 局長那個罷免 那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛去指出這一些的 就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用 還是它刻意違法 很明顯"},{"start":8742.014,"end":8762.164,"text":"有公務機關裡面的 它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了 全部都放棄了 那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法 開什麼玩笑嘛 人死會起來人死命會沾起來 這個一定有人不要亂啦 現在在質詢"},{"start":8766.032,"end":8772.816,"text":"我最後要講 其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦 柏中你給柏中聽一下我們大家看603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會在審 全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒 你看"},{"start":8791.906,"end":8802.291,"text":"美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆手碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求調查局看不看得到你們這個要強力去打擊不法了"},{"start":8819.94,"end":8820.221,"text":"這個不能間斷的啊好不好 阿不然你們做一個"},{"start":8825.049,"end":8850.196,"text":"好不好做一個各機關 涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的我們也趕趕到重重的 要不然你們不會理啦 我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說 我要修 那到底是法律知識不足還是真的是 真是說他到底要去違法咧我們不如 我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識 那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":8854.55,"end":8872.357,"text":"我想請問一下那個吳委員 鍾委員我們要不要先讓他們休息五分鐘還是你們要接著因為已經快11點了我想說先讓那個官員休息五分鐘那我們剛剛真的委員同意那我們就讓官員先休息五分鐘好 謝謝各位"},{"start":9232.639,"end":9246.919,"text":"我們繼續開會我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言今天人不多你都要講久一點沒問題"},{"start":9250.691,"end":9262.784,"text":"謝謝溫柔和愛的朝偉 平常就要保持這個樣子我們都努力 謝謝好 請法務部長好 麻煩部長調查局長好 局長然後我請人事總處好 任總委員好"},{"start":9268.716,"end":9287.793,"text":"大家早安剛剛在內政委員會我們同步在審議地方制度法的一些修正條文那當中有關61條的修正草案我想剛好跟今天教委所排的這個速攤然後聯能政府的打造的這個部分相關所以我就教於幾位"},{"start":9288.493,"end":9305.677,"text":"也就是說現在啊選罷法的地方制度法的規定啊如果犯了選罷法117條然後重點就是貪污治罪條例那種重大的這種貪毒案件那被判刑之後是停職嘛那停職的期間是否應當發語心急啊"},{"start":9312.27,"end":9331.997,"text":"我剛剛在內政委員會我才知道是法無名文所以過去是依人事總署的一個函文然後來授權給主管機關也就是內政部去看看這個被判刑的地方首長他是否因為被停職而影響他的基本生活"},{"start":9332.777,"end":9359.13,"text":"以及要去看他的違法失職的程度有多高然後來決定是完全停發他的薪給或者是給予半薪在他停職期間這是現在法無明文了所以內政委員會在審地方制度法的時候幾位委員共同提出了修正動議就是認為只要觸犯這一類的貪污治罪條例被判刑雖然沒有到最終的定讞"},{"start":9360.05,"end":9365.595,"text":"都在停職期間一律來停止新級的核發你們同意嗎這邊我尊重那個委員的一個提案那人事總署你們同意嗎"},{"start":9374.128,"end":9395.833,"text":"這部分委員好 我們也尊重委員會這邊的決議我個人認為法盡量有明文比較好否則你讓主管機關去裁量這個是非常怪的那第二個層次就會進入第二個問題就是說如果他停職而且都停止給予他的薪給發放但是他最終被判無罪"},{"start":9397.071,"end":9407.629,"text":"所以要復職 那復職之後是不是就應當來補回他的心脊 對不對來 人事總署 您就直接 專委"},{"start":9411.072,"end":9433.458,"text":"報告委員因為這一塊我比較不是那麼清楚不過原則上應該是應當就是好這是第二個層次我們也都同意所以剛剛我們在修正的條文有做這個處理但第三個層次問題就來了他在任期內復職之後給予他新級的補發他無罪平反了之後但如果他已經卸任了"},{"start":9434.238,"end":9442.389,"text":"他卸任了以後 他的官司最後定讞他被判無罪那即便他卸任了 請問他的心脊要不要一併的補發這是剛剛樓下在審議的"},{"start":9448.383,"end":9469.818,"text":"幾位委員的意見都還沒有一致所以我剛好藉這個機會跟我們今天的聯能政府貪瀆的這些作為相關委員很抱歉這問題我比較不清楚好那我問部長就一個當事者他一度被犯罪嫌疑人他定驗之後恢復了他的清白他的身份是地方首長"},{"start":9470.859,"end":9483.868,"text":"那應當要補發他的心急不管他是復職的時候是在任或者是他卸任因為有時候官司走很久嘛你認不認為都應當一併的來給予平反包括他的心急的補發"},{"start":9486.423,"end":9494.407,"text":"這部分如果複指的話複指的話這個法律我不清楚那這部分案理是比較合理是不是應該補發嗎好 謝謝你們的答案因為剛剛在樓下我們跟內政部"},{"start":9502.992,"end":9530.809,"text":"跟樓下的人事總處的相關人員包括幾位不同政黨立委大家對於這件事情的法律見解不太一致但是我個人認為如果他被定驗之後平反了恢復了他的清白不論他在補發薪金是應當的而不管他是在職或是卸職都應當一併的補發這是我的主張我想部長也認為合理上應當是這樣因為現在法無明文所以我們才要入法"},{"start":9532.653,"end":9558.299,"text":"這個我們都尊重那個委員的一個立法的一個政策好因為這沒有發生過這可能目前適用就高鴻安這個案例但我們應當好好就法制面來做一下這個演繹謝謝幾位的寶貴意見那進入我今天來另外一個主題來可能是這個局長這邊這中國的直播主狂拍學童到底是單純的治安事件還是國安事件下一頁"},{"start":9559.403,"end":9576.794,"text":"那陸配拍這個真的是狂拍啊那在我們培育委員5月19號就在法治委員會垂詢過警政署你們認為呢兒少權法、個資法、刑法法案明明都可能觸犯所以要來啟動偵辦5月21號蘇曉慧委員在陸委會內政委員會也質詢了陸委會他們更認為他恐怕不是指示治安事件"},{"start":9586.9,"end":9606.403,"text":"而之後呢5月26號台北市警察局已經開始巡線追查中但是即便之前告發的這個案件開始巡線追查但是又有新的一起陸配又開始繼續拍所以說他就是一再的發生一再的發生下一頁"},{"start":9607.384,"end":9636.167,"text":"而且拍攝的不只學校學校除了涉及對學生的兒少權法或是個資法或是妨礙秘密相關的可能觸犯之外可能學校都是一般大家知道的避難場所會不會有蒐集一些情搜的可能而這一位陸配我剛剛來圖案有揭示出他5月23這位叫阿梅的陸配除了去拍學校他又去拍道路警察執勤的畫面"},{"start":9637.108,"end":9657.628,"text":"又去拍了松山機場的軍機起降的畫面所以我高度懷疑他已經不只觸犯了我們警政部門認定的治安的犯罪他真的很有可能跟國家安全組織性的犯罪相關下一頁"},{"start":9658.829,"end":9675.155,"text":"所以說我是很擔心啦個資法用哪一條辦妨礙秘密公開直播算妨礙秘密嗎兒少權法是不是能夠成立我實在要尊重檢察官跟後續法官的偵辦"},{"start":9676.516,"end":9697.091,"text":"但是我在追尋法務部長跟我們調查局長主要是在組織性的國安犯罪的層次那台北市警察局開始辦了那國安的部分是不是調查局也開始同步來跟委員報告我們也高度關切這一個狀況那目前我們也在"},{"start":9698.272,"end":9714.145,"text":"收集資料中那有關刑事調查的部分那個檢察官已經都立案了那我們關切的其實是另外一個國安層面他是不是有境外敵對勢力一個系統性的一個犯罪的一個這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":9714.946,"end":9741.574,"text":"所以局長所說第一個你們也高度懷疑可能涉及了國安的疑慮這是第一件事第二件事所以你們也已經啟動了相關的偵辦的動作已經開始進行了那請問是針對一案兩案還是全面性都已經好幾案在辦現在目前已經呈現出來的這些狀況每一案你們都綜合在辦理當中然後會去了解他中間是不是有脈絡的關係"},{"start":9743.294,"end":9765.673,"text":"好那因为这是这段时间的心生事物那希望能够在侦办之后能够有具体的结果而且能够有效的喝足这是我们共同的责任辛苦了那个局长请回那部长您继续留着不好意思今天借这个机会我要再一次针对我一再催生倡议的反歧视法"},{"start":9766.494,"end":9790.128,"text":"再一次就教於您喔真的是指紋樓梯想不見人下來下一頁我開始在唱一反歧視法主要是我過去在教育文化部門在校園有非常多歧視原住民族或是歧視身心障礙或者是性別的歧視性言論教育失靈了嗎下一頁"},{"start":9791.369,"end":9810.702,"text":"但是呢 政治圈更是變本加厲 失言平平從我個人 我個人還在競選的期間就被以我的未婚單身的身份沒有生小孩的身份被嚴重的歧視說吳斯堯會絕子絕孫快50歲了就不能生了"},{"start":9816.465,"end":9839.618,"text":"一直到我進入這一屆的立法院我認為這一屆的新國會應當是更有進步意識的但是並沒有我們的國民黨的羅姓的委員也對著我說姐姐你這麼老了閃邊去吧這是在我們議事廳發生的事而到最近喔"},{"start":9840.731,"end":9869.144,"text":"大罷免的浪潮這麼的風起雲湧非常多的委員可能承擔了很大的壓力馬文君委員前幾天的把罷團說成是福壽羅是外來物種謝龍介委員詛咒別人生著小孩沒屁眼林佩祥委員把這些公民朋友把他貶義為社會邊緣人就像是狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西"},{"start":9871.699,"end":9899.158,"text":"這些是不是都涉及嚴重的歧視性言論這個講是對有一些歧視的一些的意涵那包括我們的韓國瑜院長在這個辦公室朝野協商對著柯建民總召說出要吃藥之類的或者是對於我們執政黨的三位黨鞭說出一龍二鳳這種話是不是嚴重的歧視性言論"},{"start":9900.875,"end":9924.454,"text":"這個歧視的言論我想這部分我們都是不贊成的那我們覺得在人與人之間的互動應該要以那種彼此禮貌讓人家覺得很不會反感的這些更重要的是歧視性的言論要關乎的是"},{"start":9926.452,"end":9941.896,"text":"當事者他的感受是什麼就像我們對於性騷擾這種言語騷擾一樣的如果被歧視被言語攻擊或是被人身攻擊的一方他感受到非常清楚的不愉快非常清楚的"},{"start":9942.336,"end":9959.654,"text":"被歧視就像我跟陳培宇委員我們就在這個場域被韓國瑜院長說民進黨團一龍二鳳我們當事人尤其是女性我們聽起來是完全對於性別嚴重的歧視我們當然認為一個立法院的院長不應當有這種言論"},{"start":9962.059,"end":9976.452,"text":"好 個案我們打住不再討論但是法制面如果新的國會依舊是這樣子的不斷的去涉及歧視言論的氾濫我們是立法者"},{"start":9977.722,"end":9989.149,"text":"所以呢下一頁我們的反歧視法台灣到底要等多久我們要讓人權條約國內法化就像今天朝偉在排的這個速攤的專報"},{"start":9992.831,"end":10009.505,"text":"我們也簽署了聯合國的反蘇貪公約嘛所以我們把基於聯合國的反蘇貪的所有的作為我們也國內法化我們推動了陽光法案等等啊但是一樣啊國際也在倡議反歧視法或者是稱為平等法都要回應國際的人權公約但是台灣還要等多久呢 夏業"},{"start":10016.553,"end":10024.383,"text":"也要落實聯合國SDGs 人人平等減少不平等的目標台灣還要等多久呢 下一頁"},{"start":10025.748,"end":10050.358,"text":"反歧視的條款散列在各法現行的法律欠缺一致性總共散列在至少七個法律所以我最近是非常感同身受因為立法院作為國會一個應當有進步思維應當有非常的平等思維而且作為國人表率的國會殿堂"},{"start":10051.538,"end":10071.386,"text":"卻一再的發生這種歧視的言論而最近大罷免的浪潮這些被罷免的委員們不能因為你身處政治的壓力當中就口不擇言啊對於公民朋友行使他珍貴的憲法父權你卻用扶壽羅這種邊緣人這種"},{"start":10075.649,"end":10089.945,"text":"狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西這種在嚴重的鄙視鄙疑公民耶我們是一票一票選出來的沒有公民支持我們我們今天怎麼會有這個條件我們會有這個珍貴的機會站在這裡問政呢"},{"start":10093.246,"end":10117.12,"text":"所以部長 夏業 曾經一度是內政部要研議反歧視法或平等法後來我知道是法務部開始接手了 是嗎這個反歧視法是行政性平處的一個法規好 所以現在完全也沒有內政部也沒有法務部因為最早 夏業 最早是法務部提出來的條文有67個條文"},{"start":10119.747,"end":10131.109,"text":"所以後來是移給行政院的平等處嗎人權期轉型正義處所以防務部再也沒有參與了嗎我們會這部分我們"},{"start":10133.362,"end":10152.445,"text":"所以我們會去那邊開會那最近開會開的怎麼樣我講反歧視法講了一年了他那個在113年5月2日有辦理預告那另外在10月有預告超過這麼久的時間了他在10月有延伸會議那另外現在在重整各界的一個意見"},{"start":10153.772,"end":10177.804,"text":"那法務部您認為因為你們過去是involved最深的從2019你們委外研究而且過去的條文平等法67個條文是你們提出來的草擬的可不可能您預測一下我們可不可能下個會期反歧視法或是今年之內能夠有一個國家高度的版本我個人我一向沒有要畏快而快"},{"start":10178.624,"end":10201.304,"text":"我自己的版本其實準備很久但我一直還沒有送出來是因為我要等行政院的院版我希望這樣一個大家要有社會的共識畢竟言論的管控或言論在要用法律去限制它就像我們在同樣的司法法治委員會國家安全跟言論自由怎麼去把界限定清楚同樣的"},{"start":10202.305,"end":10225.037,"text":"歧視的言論他某種程度也是在言論自由的這個範疇裡面但是你不能夠去傷及他人的情感不能夠去貶抑他人進行這種言語的暴力的霸凌所以我認為我同意要嚴謹同意要時間換取空間但是也已經等了一年半了他這個草案是有啦"},{"start":10225.805,"end":10240.235,"text":"是有草案 他那個草案是有6章46條好 那我非常希望我們下個會期下個會期能夠看到行政院院版那您所知道院版未來這個法案應該是內政司法法制委員會主審吧應該是應該是我們跟內政聯席嗎應該是"},{"start":10249.658,"end":10277.414,"text":"主管機關是誰因為他是行政院的那個那個人權組所以這就是一個問題啦好沒有關係我非常期待下個會期我們不能放任歧視性的言論一再的氾濫我們需要法治我們需要社會更多元的對話我也希望已經等了一年半了我們今年會有好的消息或是多努力一點我們明年能夠來完成立法好嗎大家一起加油謝謝"},{"start":10280.078,"end":10282.663,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":10303.337,"end":10319.631,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關首長官員 會長 公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生 謝謝昭偉的安排昭偉不用站了 因為我今天的題目主要是修五權憲法廢考間去問國共先"},{"start":10320.852,"end":10345.356,"text":"藍白貪獨圖利更勝於公器私用我不曉得這樣的質詢其實在場的每一位都是可以來參與質詢的對象尤其是要跟昭偉抱個歉我不會邀請官員上台我就直接對所有人講謝謝昭偉但是不要昭偉聽了有點不開心就把時間卡斷就好了那我們就直接看這一點排監委專報吳宗憲有讀過憲法嗎"},{"start":10348.82,"end":10376.557,"text":"有個限制 我們來看一看 憲法徵信條文第二項第一款行政院有向立法院提出施政方針及施政報告之者立法院在開會時有向行政院院長及行政院各部會首長質詢之權今天我看了有來自有要邀請監察院還有包括審計部的嘛有邀請到權序部 這是考試院的這些單位是所謂的行政院院長及行政院各部會嗎"},{"start":10377.947,"end":10392.286,"text":"好 我們來看一下 還是有一些條文可以問憲法第67條第二項各委員會得邀請政府人員及社會上有關係人員到會被尋那可能在場的這些不是行政院的官員們大概就是屬於政府人員"},{"start":10393.186,"end":10414.698,"text":"但是憲法第七次要寫立法院開會時,關係院的院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見他們有這樣的權利可以來列席陳述他們關係院,譬如像司法院、像監察院、像考試院的意見尤其是立法院在審議這些該院的法律案的時候,尤其是憲法訴訟法"},{"start":10416.141,"end":10422.294,"text":"那時候不曉得吳釗偉在安排的時候有沒有邀請司法院來表示意見啊好 可是呢 釋字第461說三院所屬一"},{"start":10425.307,"end":10450.342,"text":"非獨立行使職權的人在場有沒有獨立行使職權的人 沒有二 負行政職務者 對 在場是負行政職務者與其提出的三法律案或有關預算案的事項亦有上開憲法規定之適用簡單講 司法法治委員會作為立法院的一個受院會委託的委員會邀請其他三個憲法機關的時候只有符合這三個條件的時候才能邀請他們來"},{"start":10451.827,"end":10475.736,"text":"當然在場沒有考試委員沒有監察委員沒有大法官而且今天在場的人都負有行政職務但是請教召委現在我們有法律案跟預算案在審嗎沒有啊這三個月的人員不用來請看下一頁排幕僚人員專報國民黨不要雙標啊就在一個月前啊我們司法法治委員會才邀請本院的幕僚長周萬來秘書長來報告啊結果立法院說什麼"},{"start":10478.98,"end":10504.275,"text":"幕僚人員不是立委行使立法權的兼顧客體啊 看到沒有 幕僚人員周焕蘭秘書長 身為本院的秘書長 她是幕僚人員不需要列席結果呢 監察院組織法第九條 秘書長是什麼秘書長也是幕僚人員啊嗨 趙偉 幕僚人員不是不用列席嗎國民黨雙標喔周焕蘭秘書長可以不用來其他各院的秘書長就要來布蘭副秘書長也要來 像現在司法院"},{"start":10505.287,"end":10532.956,"text":"沒有秘書長啊,要叫人家副秘書長來他尤其他不是政務人員耶,往下看好啦,我們現在看到了,有一位這個民眾黨的黨主席啊發生了這個案子之後呢,說要求當事人自首進退當事人請辭之後,又說人家是斷尾朝生啊真還是你,虎還是你啊,死還是你,跪還是你啊怎麼折騰是你有話講啦,我們來看一下這位大主席,我們現在看"},{"start":10534.565,"end":10540.981,"text":"他說怎麼樣 他說今天要廢除監察院啊 很好廢除監察院有沒有門檻 有 憲法政策條文第七條第一項"},{"start":10542.598,"end":10565.165,"text":"監察院作為國家最高監察機關就像立法院為國家最高立法機關監察院行使彈劾糾舉及審計權憲法修正案第十二條 憲法修改要立法委員四分之一之提議國民黨有沒有四分之一 有四分之三之出席 每次開會我們民進黨一定出席經出席委員四分之三之決議可以提出憲法修正案在我們第十屆2020年的時候"},{"start":10568.566,"end":10593.968,"text":"2022年就做過了 我們提出的憲法修正案還要經過公告半年後 由中華民國自由地區選舉人投票複決有效同意票過半數的選舉人不斷通過結果呢 我們在2022年要弄一個公民權的修憲公投結果來啦 國台辦在2022年就發布了馬小光說 所謂的修憲公投根本就是為了修憲謀獨的鋪路跟造勢"},{"start":10595.294,"end":10603.242,"text":"聽到他們的發言 國民兩黨 藍白兩黨 哇 發抖啊他們不同意我們可以這樣做嗎 你可以這樣做嗎 我們老要看"},{"start":10604.731,"end":10630.74,"text":"廢除監察院國民黨支持嗎?吳昭元你支持嗎?你是國民黨黨員嗎?有沒有讀過國民黨的黨章啊?國民黨黨章什麼?奉行三民主義五權憲法之宗旨幫你查出來了,不曉得回去看一看結果呢,國民黨的黨團總召傅坤吉說要廢監察院跟黃國昌的說法一樣,黃總召的說法一樣結果國民黨黨中央說什麼?五權分立是國民黨的長期主張啊"},{"start":10631.567,"end":10653.353,"text":"到底誰雙標 誰在精神分裂是傅坤祺代表國民黨 還是那個發言的黨主席代表國民黨到底國民黨跟黃國昌要不要主張五權分裂啊 往下看再說公器私用吧 哇 在場的公器私用我想 莫於國民黨跟民眾黨 我們來看一下傅坤祺 親信 戰天下得標 2177萬"},{"start":10656.072,"end":10683.093,"text":"民眾黨吳春成前委員 嘩 2200萬 貪吶 誰比較貪傅君祺佔國有地 蓋停車場 佔了800坪民眾黨黨主席黃國昌 佔國有地 佔了28坪大貪跟小貪林志廟涉貪一審判決 12年6個月高環判決 7年4個月 好像國民黨比較貪喔接下來還有傅君祺任內聯絡簿啦 金座啦 米袋啦 都落款"},{"start":10684.244,"end":10691.08,"text":"我民眾黨柯文哲市長內大量採購柯語錄公器私用莫此為勝啊再往下看"},{"start":10694.346,"end":10705.555,"text":"講到公益適用這還是一個不特定的法律概念那我們來看一下瀆職罪是不是很明確刑法我不請教部長了貪污治罪條例瀆職跟貪污我們簡稱貪瀆法務部出版的圖利罪相關問題之研究他說圖利罪是屬於智慧狡詐行之犯罪他會注意到過程合理安排因此事證的痕跡他會去消除避免被發掘 收證很困難證據都多殘缺"},{"start":10723.849,"end":10740.789,"text":"所以為什麼我們有的立法委員很喜歡當檢調在立法院的質詢都喜歡個案問政然後就要指導檢調辦案可是對於貪瀆的辦案這麼興趣這麼高所謂的公器私用到底哪一個比較嚴重所以"},{"start":10741.616,"end":10762.576,"text":"我們往下看今天的結論吳檢作就算沒有熟讀憲法吳昭偉要向莊昭偉學習啊莊昭偉好歹排的幕僚長排的秘書長是立法院的周萬南秘書長到本委員會來就本院相關的事宜包括立法院牽涉事宜來做報告我們的吳昭偉"},{"start":10764.526,"end":10779.191,"text":"卻排了一個違反我們四字精神讓其他平行於立法院的其他縣政機關要求指派人員來到現場做跟法案預算無關的備詢請吳簡作回去憲法讀一讀請吳昭偉向莊昭偉好好的學習學習"},{"start":10786.295,"end":10810.423,"text":"好 謝謝鍾委員 因為你剛剛一直問我 我一直在想要不要回答你會想說怕說我回答就打斷你沒關係啦 你胡扯也不是第一次啦 就照你說的好 那下一位我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員沒有啦 因為你都說我沒手讀嘛 那沒關係嘛那我就認為你搞不清楚嘛 這互相齁好 陳佩瑜委員 那下一位我們請陳佩瑜委員發言"},{"start":10827.878,"end":10843.365,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前 要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是 因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說 他剛剛問我問題 他一直說請問對不對 那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述 所以我就不"},{"start":10850.828,"end":10851.308,"text":"我保證不會請問主席"},{"start":10867.638,"end":10890.036,"text":"我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年"},{"start":10890.737,"end":10915.771,"text":"女足跟足協之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足協好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備"},{"start":10919.153,"end":10928.319,"text":"足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁"},{"start":10939.867,"end":10964.088,"text":"那我們呢 當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢"},{"start":10965.45,"end":10979.525,"text":"購買品項啦協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是可是到底足協後續如何去發放"},{"start":10980.606,"end":10998.202,"text":"然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好 相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位 對嗎"},{"start":10999.483,"end":11006.006,"text":"行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手"},{"start":11015.131,"end":11025.705,"text":"他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自"},{"start":11030.971,"end":11057.054,"text":"自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個主席的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯"},{"start":11058.695,"end":11082.02,"text":"可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個"},{"start":11082.72,"end":11100.345,"text":"有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託省紀部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手"},{"start":11102.385,"end":11131.705,"text":"這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做"},{"start":11132.405,"end":11156.087,"text":"好 跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理徹底處理另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告"},{"start":11157.248,"end":11186.307,"text":"我們到七月底前 審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速"},{"start":11187.788,"end":11208.597,"text":"好 我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好 我們把我們手上從去年到今年 我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題 更全面性的跟你們討論好不好 因為今天時間有限是是好 那就時間改三個月 沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好 謝謝好 接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回 謝謝"},{"start":11223.791,"end":11224.594,"text":"好 謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是"},{"start":11228.105,"end":11252.77,"text":"專委 我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要縱使AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有一點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有字您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場"},{"start":11253.63,"end":11274.265,"text":"高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了"},{"start":11275.512,"end":11297.808,"text":"如果我們用現場 大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖 不管是做簡報 不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託 我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好 要事先提醒"},{"start":11298.288,"end":11325.189,"text":"我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JET GPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":11327.22,"end":11328.874,"text":"這是真的新聞 這不是我用AI做的"},{"start":11331.028,"end":11356.628,"text":"妳沒有看過?抱歉妳了解?妳有看到這個新聞?沒有沒有?好這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HHPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管"},{"start":11357.449,"end":11385.518,"text":"左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面他說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來"},{"start":11386.138,"end":11407.754,"text":"可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的 對嗎相關的悲劇 下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述 您很清楚"},{"start":11409.945,"end":11438.152,"text":"對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好"},{"start":11438.692,"end":11466.665,"text":"因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理"},{"start":11468.77,"end":11492.144,"text":"這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中"},{"start":11494.205,"end":11519.927,"text":"重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面而且用得得心應手每天都可以用什麼問題都可以用"},{"start":11520.948,"end":11543.455,"text":"我猜大部分人可能只有check GPT可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好數位時代的年輕幕僚也好他們手上的工具絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕"},{"start":11544.355,"end":11556.59,"text":"所以我也想要請問任總,我剛剛自己講了這麼多,我提出一個需求,請你回應我,有沒有可能,有沒有機會同步評估,納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點,目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性?"},{"start":11563.825,"end":11577.666,"text":"謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好 帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了"},{"start":11579.028,"end":11598.403,"text":"可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎"},{"start":11601.165,"end":11616.352,"text":"三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞"},{"start":11618.197,"end":11638.47,"text":"是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長"},{"start":11639.671,"end":11653.819,"text":"到最後如果現場的悲劇要他們扛可能對他們也不是太公平因為我認為有高階主管跟第一線工作人員認知上的落差好嗎好謝謝主席謝謝那我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間持續進行到所有發言登記發言委員請大家結束為止"},{"start":11663.358,"end":11676.814,"text":"我現在不是說回答誰的詢問我剛剛可能要說明一下主席本來就不會去評論每個委員的發言但是如果委員有問題問主席的話主席是會回答因為剛剛鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":11678.215,"end":11700.526,"text":"他有多次說請問主席請問吳宗憲這樣所以我剛剛才會做這樣的回答那另外就是說什麼剛剛說他胡扯不第一次我想說中央兵委員說謊被踢爆好幾次所以這個是我的論述依據那再來就是說在109年3月25日中央兵委員他自己曾經到法治委員會參加會議當次也是就這個也是進行詢問那監察院秘書長又來"},{"start":11704.148,"end":11726.248,"text":"所以那他在當次他怎麼不說這個是違憲或什麼所以我想一切都有這個資料可查詢是立法院第十屆第一次會期在109年3月25日當次的會議那宗家兵委員也有出席好那我想我們還是一樣一切依據法律以及依據事實來說明好那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言謝謝"},{"start":11736.874,"end":11755.441,"text":"好 謝謝主席我覺得我們今天我們司法法制委員會已經好幾次那麼該來的都不來那今天呢秘書長雖然在昨天晚上突然請辭可是問題是監察院完全沒有派任何代表來第一個藐視立法院"},{"start":11756.201,"end":11785.173,"text":"第二個 難道監察院現在整個監察院是已經羞於見人了嗎齊平的秘書長突然請辭也可以派代理人來到立法院來做報告難道監察院對於我們今天的專案報告就是如何建立一個清廉政府如何去防範貪腐他們覺得不重要嗎所以我覺得我們還是要允許一個嚴厲的譴責好 謝謝主席那我想我請那個法務部長"},{"start":11786.328,"end":11787.749,"text":"麻煩保護部長好 部長好委員好這次監察院發生了連續從秘書長開始到好幾位的監察委員都有濫用公務車的情形那引起軒然大波但是事實上公務人員濫用公務車也不是從現在開始"},{"start":11814.725,"end":11840.219,"text":"今天早上除了已經請辭的秘書長李俊逸之外還有蘇麗瓊監委是要去看牙醫然後另外一位監委林玉榮去載親友去接送機場今天早上又爆發另外一位的王榮章監委他一樣的去用公務車去理頭髮"},{"start":11841.54,"end":11857.032,"text":"所以今天監察院早上召開記者會 除了來說明為什麼李俊逸秘書長準辭之外也把三位監察委員要移送紀律委員會"},{"start":11858.789,"end":11884.839,"text":"那這樣的一個發展其實是因為最近輿論大滑本來監察院第一時間竟然說這是涉及事件所以監察委員他們也不曉得該怎麼樣去處理這真的是很離譜因為他們都忘記他們自己有一個紀律委員會還要煩勞外界去提醒他們監察院你們自己有紀律委員會"},{"start":11885.939,"end":11901.786,"text":"所以呢他今天呢移送三位監委去他的紀律委員會那另外一方面呢我們常常講說監察院敢不敢打老虎還是呢只是敢打蚊子而已"},{"start":11902.594,"end":11928.153,"text":"那麼監察院過去其實也有就是監察委員就彈劾監察委員好在這邊特別要提的就是這些涉案的監委並不是只有去紀律委員會而已他們還有幾個選擇第一個選擇就是他要不要比照呂敬義秘書長要請辭下台以事負責負起政治責任"},{"start":11928.954,"end":11948.497,"text":"另外一個就是監委可以去彈劾監委 這個是過去曾經發生過的在美國86年的時候 其實監察院通過彈劾監察委員叫做蔡慶柱他的一個收賄貪污案"},{"start":11949.298,"end":11969.478,"text":"所以這件事情不是說今天像擠牙膏的方式那麼外界質疑到哪裡你就去辦到哪裡現在才做請辭做斷尾求生現在才去移送紀律委員會其實還有其他的監察院敢不敢彈劾"},{"start":11970.509,"end":11981.579,"text":"好 但是我在這邊為什麼要請部長上台部長一定站了半天覺得說這干我什麼事所以我要請教的是其實過去我剛剛講"},{"start":11983.464,"end":12001.553,"text":"用濫用公務車並不是從現在開始過去也有很多的案例這個在之前今天我看有些委員提到的包含前台南市的民族事務委員會的主委前漁民縣的消防局局長"},{"start":12003.535,"end":12024.857,"text":"屏東三地門的鄉長 還有前屏東訪寮鄉長都曾經因為 但是他們的情節還有其他的 但是他們濫用公務車就是公務車公器私用的部分 也是造成他貪污犯罪的一部分"},{"start":12025.658,"end":12040.407,"text":"那麼過去都有 都有處理 甚至呢其實有很多還有起訴的 當然也有被彈劾的也有被判刑的 當然有些是緩起訴好 所以"},{"start":12042.115,"end":12064.594,"text":"過去很多公務人員有的有辦有的沒有辦 待會我也要提到有些根本完全都沒有辦然後裝死就過去了那我要請教的部長是一個國家終究不能夠一國兩制或一國多制 對不對所以如果像公務人員像這次監察院從秘書長開始到監委"},{"start":12067.168,"end":12091.028,"text":"那麼我剛才也提出對照過去也有因為你私用公務車認為你侵占了公有財物而被來被調查被起訴的這些案例那請問一下部長對於公務人員濫用公務車到底檢調辦不辦辦的標準是不是應該一致"},{"start":12095.767,"end":12110.502,"text":"謝謝委員我想這一件北檢有因為民眾的告發檢舉有立案來偵辦那這部分只要我們刑訴訴訟法只要有告訴告發"},{"start":12112.348,"end":12125.482,"text":"這部分我們就會只有犯罪嫌疑我們就會來立案來做一個告發有沒有時間限制沒有時間限制那個追溯嫌疑部分那個告發都沒有時間限制"},{"start":12126.946,"end":12153.558,"text":"那如果這樣的話那我就也直接跟部長來告發另外三個例子更高高官來2023年的時候年初我們的國家運輸安全調查委員會的主委楊洪志他在上班期間搭乘公務車到宜蘭去訪友泡溫泉吃美食有的時候的太太也跟著一起去"},{"start":12154.378,"end":12179.574,"text":"那這個事情呢後來呢也不了了之就是運安會的主委楊洪志好再來2024年7月10號我們駐WTO代表羅昌發他呢被爆料被長期佔用Volvo的公務車當私家車甚至拿公帑來報銷個人的用品"},{"start":12182.476,"end":12202.454,"text":"再來我們的駐美代表余大雷他也被爆料說用公務車在駐外的待遇被爆料後來他自己承認曾經搭公務車和家人一起去賞櫻花"},{"start":12205.229,"end":12225.715,"text":"這些案例其實跟監察院的案例其實都有類似都有類似這個過去呢其實也都有報導但是後來不了了之所以我在這邊呢剛才講說沒有告發的期限所以我就當這邊就直接跟我們部長來告發這三個案例"},{"start":12228.496,"end":12234.779,"text":"希望呢 我們法務部也能夠去做調查因為它的行政調查呢 就隨著 反正就不了了之下我們這個駐美代表 就沒事了所以如果行政調查不做 那麼我請法務部能夠來做調查它應該呢 是應該要一致的好 謝謝部長 部長請回"},{"start":12252.85,"end":12257.536,"text":"另外我請一下我們的審計今天審計部是副審計長 是不是"},{"start":12264.212,"end":12268.775,"text":"委員好副審議長其實我常常都覺得我到立法院之後我覺得各部會我一直覺得審計部算是比較還有在在好好在做事情的啦有時候看你們的審計部的報告只是後來呢因為被揭發出來的很多的弊端那麼你們也越來越有些保守我今天很仔細看你們的報告的內容"},{"start":12294.246,"end":12312.986,"text":"我要特別講就是說在你們報告內容其實是非常恐怖的事情為什麼呢在你們的報告內容你們特別提到你們也是用大數據來分析分析我們很多的這些主要都是一些政府的採購案"},{"start":12314.437,"end":12333.33,"text":"你們在這些的這個案件裡面2900家竟然有800家比例將近三成喔是政府機關根本沒有依採購法去追繳押標金該追繳而未追繳 你同意還有"},{"start":12335.812,"end":12348.511,"text":"500家 比例17.2然後 對這些不拔廠商該停權 不去停權 對不對有吧 這個情形嚴不嚴重"},{"start":12350.646,"end":12359.073,"text":"請問一下我們整個透過這個數據分析的技術大概篩選出來的情況很嚴重很嚴重是好所以我在這邊講孰令制之啊如果我們今天要講的是建立一個青年政治避免貪腐為什麼在我們審計部他用大數據去看這個還不是去抓幣喔"},{"start":12376.507,"end":12392.556,"text":"這個是你政府機關就應該依照政府採購法你應該去追繳你不去追繳這不是圖利什麼叫做圖利這不是貪污什麼叫做貪污還有你該去給他停權而不去給他停權就是因為這樣子長此以往"},{"start":12396.826,"end":12420.654,"text":"其實最近 所以我剛才對監察院多所批評監察院這個月份 五月吧 對不起 五月有一個糾正案 但是我覺得糾正都太輕了這個我曾經也有踢爆過就是呢 我們警察人員 警消的防彈背心的弊端嘛對不對 你們去糾正這個案子"},{"start":12422.104,"end":12436.761,"text":"這個案子多麼的離譜離譜到這個廠商一而再再而三的飆到一而再再而三的驗收不過我們竟然一而再再而三的繼續繼續讓他能夠得標沒有弊端嗎"},{"start":12444.895,"end":12467.606,"text":"沒有問題嗎 只要被糾正嗎我甚至曾經提過這家廠商叫光顏企業多麼離譜它驗收不過 然後被列入拒絕往來名單拒絕往來名單它有時效性一解除它拒絕往來名單 立刻"},{"start":12469.645,"end":12487.081,"text":"再讓他能夠得標他這麼神通欸這麼神通欸只要拒絕往來名單一被解除就立刻得標然後出來就是這種有瑕疵品的把我們警消人員把我們警察人員的命不當病欸我們的政府已經爛到這種地步了欸"},{"start":12494.43,"end":12517.549,"text":"這種人命關天 草菅人命的事情而且是警察基層第一線的人員最後警察還要自己去買防彈背心他們都自己知道就是政府發給他們的防彈背心他們不敢用最後自己去買防彈背心我知道你們五月份去糾正了這個案子包含警政署吧 海巡署吧還有台營可是糾正夠嗎"},{"start":12521.983,"end":12533.636,"text":"所以我在這邊其實我肯定因為審計部可能是根據這些數據一個一個的去追但是像這個我剛才講的案例獨獨只是糾正絕對不夠啊所以在這邊副審計長也承認問題很嚴重啊"},{"start":12542.472,"end":12562.365,"text":"所以雖然法務部長在下面我剛才就請你先回座我是覺得我們今天房攤什麼清廉說假的啦連這些政府的標案都公然這麼多的比例政府採購法在那邊是瘦尬是不是是在那邊只是當作是怎麼樣"},{"start":12567.165,"end":12594.073,"text":"只是在裝飾品所以我在這邊期許我們審計部還是本於你們的過去至少我這兩年我看審計部的報告我都會看到一些東西我覺得你們有在抓我們現在政府的弊端不是這種粉飾太平要繼續抓但是我們所有相關的這些政府相關的這些政府的採購真的不能這麼爛"},{"start":12597.074,"end":12624.024,"text":"你看我剛才講將近三成欸該追繳押標金他都不去追繳請問一下為什麼不追繳他是忙嗎是忙還是在包庇所以在這邊也請我還是請我們的審計部審計部你過去有包含什麼就業安地基金但是很惡劣啦就業安地基金他讓他要補回七千多萬他還要拿公務預算對不對"},{"start":12625.41,"end":12634.617,"text":"是不是 就是那個勞動部你們去追那個就業安靜基金他濫用的地方嗎目前還沒有確定那個預算來源 還沒有"},{"start":12635.663,"end":12663.127,"text":"目前還沒有 還沒有跟你們 還沒有告訴你們預算來源這一種還要納稅人去編預算給他喔真的很沒有良心啦好 這個我還是希望審計部能夠未來還是確確實實的幫人民的納稅人來把關是 謝謝委員剛剛委員追尋那個防彈衣跟抗彈材料那個採購案其實我們有另外移送給台北地檢目前在整辦中"},{"start":12664.609,"end":12668.995,"text":"對應該這個案子一定要移送啦是是真的太草菅人命好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":12692.437,"end":12705.627,"text":"首先先有請人總的江專偉然後等一下還有馮署長待會在馮署長我先請教這個江專偉我想請教一下今天人事長則沒有來"},{"start":12719.446,"end":12744.105,"text":"不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来我们今天刚好副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长"},{"start":12745.246,"end":12764.683,"text":"聽到他回去就可以交辦那麼當然今天專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以"},{"start":12765.623,"end":12778.575,"text":"獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿"},{"start":12782.213,"end":12802.592,"text":"不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個"},{"start":12809.027,"end":12829.675,"text":"對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字"},{"start":12834.571,"end":12839.914,"text":"粉絲在這裡是要批評人種不能這麼草率有關於防癱素癱的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個"},{"start":12862.888,"end":12875.745,"text":"公園的廉政與服務倫理課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515"},{"start":12881.352,"end":12887.878,"text":"好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長"},{"start":12909.097,"end":12920.562,"text":"我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例"},{"start":12924.531,"end":12931.756,"text":"好 謝謝 我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充 謝謝好 那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會 清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件的等等的事情辦得可真快 辦得可真勤快應該這麼說 很勤快 一波接一波的"},{"start":12954.891,"end":12981.884,"text":"然後來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是防灘速灘的這個"},{"start":12984.365,"end":13013.008,"text":"這個宣導啊 教育訓練等等都應該要加強對 而不是都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好 那也請你回去要轉告任市長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到"},{"start":13014.29,"end":13021.918,"text":"3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪"},{"start":13023.245,"end":13052.145,"text":"其實就人種部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都播那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去瞭解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水"},{"start":13053.546,"end":13073.864,"text":"政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係"},{"start":13075.545,"end":13088.719,"text":"人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長"},{"start":13095.742,"end":13111.936,"text":"好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本市有發現"},{"start":13113.581,"end":13136.356,"text":"廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的"},{"start":13138.095,"end":13156.833,"text":"數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向"},{"start":13157.634,"end":13170.749,"text":"背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解"},{"start":13171.377,"end":13188.57,"text":"好 我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是"},{"start":13190.172,"end":13194.896,"text":"因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎"},{"start":13206.548,"end":13223.599,"text":"對 那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子"},{"start":13224.43,"end":13249.014,"text":"事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風司這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個"},{"start":13250.195,"end":13257.906,"text":"這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查"},{"start":13259.346,"end":13283.599,"text":"好 那麼至於秘書長呢 因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的進去委員會裡面 那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分 他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講 我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料 我們都會全力配合不是 因為你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛 然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給"},{"start":13286.121,"end":13308.611,"text":"給地檢署對不對這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們也有一開始我們也有要求政風去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政風室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況"},{"start":13309.932,"end":13332.906,"text":"基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接離給地檢署"},{"start":13333.366,"end":13339.972,"text":"所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告"},{"start":13350.687,"end":13368.682,"text":"不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛就是不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要"},{"start":13369.142,"end":13398.288,"text":"其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情了我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們鄭豐市的角色是什麼"},{"start":13399.088,"end":13417.271,"text":"就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分"},{"start":13417.691,"end":13428.034,"text":"我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們證封連證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況"},{"start":13438.797,"end":13464.125,"text":"我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長"},{"start":13470.286,"end":13484.998,"text":"李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況"},{"start":13496.109,"end":13520.825,"text":"在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好 OK 那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎"},{"start":13522.509,"end":13542.264,"text":"因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核"},{"start":13550.27,"end":13575.251,"text":"那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院那些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案"},{"start":13576.172,"end":13586.737,"text":"那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審"},{"start":13588.12,"end":13608.508,"text":"那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費審計部要怎麼處理"},{"start":13612.496,"end":13628.964,"text":"跟委員報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個全體的處理"},{"start":13631.181,"end":13653.414,"text":"行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算對我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算你通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回"},{"start":13657.716,"end":13671.748,"text":"給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對 那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎"},{"start":13679.402,"end":13708.362,"text":"跟委員報告我們就是根據行政會移過來的總預算他通過的法定預算數額是多少我們就照這樣來處理那剛剛委員提醒的那些不確定狀況其實我們也不清楚什麼時候會有一個確定的時間但是政府的運作是每天都在運作一打開就要做政府簽的契約工程的推動一些法律義務的支出他每天都要處理所以可能還是要照原來通過的預算來執行"},{"start":13710.004,"end":13720.963,"text":"對 所以之後有變更 如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢 前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了 那之後這個錢要追回來嗎"},{"start":13722.328,"end":13748.507,"text":"這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來"},{"start":13749.758,"end":13754.042,"text":"怎麼討回來 我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告 可以嗎"},{"start":13761.394,"end":13766.337,"text":"就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的"},{"start":13790.929,"end":13817.968,"text":"預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的提供給委員參考"},{"start":13819.089,"end":13834.575,"text":"但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考"},{"start":13835.455,"end":13862.651,"text":"好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部提的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供給我"},{"start":13863.871,"end":13864.511,"text":"司法院副秘書長"},{"start":13887.439,"end":13895.184,"text":"副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他 聽長行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長還有廉政署署長全序部的司長以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委那麻煩人事行政總署專委上台 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13918.115,"end":13935.065,"text":"首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職"},{"start":13938.529,"end":13958.803,"text":"本席手上看到大家的報告 很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署 就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語 中間大概就是直接把整個的"},{"start":13959.964,"end":13977.755,"text":"今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理本席在這裡要先講人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位都有職責"},{"start":13978.675,"end":14005.551,"text":"不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效"},{"start":14007.191,"end":14020.819,"text":"我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元"},{"start":14028.392,"end":14040.223,"text":"從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職所以我們想要了解就是說"},{"start":14042.757,"end":14066.703,"text":"這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊"},{"start":14071.929,"end":14097.631,"text":"如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也 你的制度 制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你 廉政署是不是簡單說 因為我時間有限"},{"start":14106.991,"end":14126.639,"text":"做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪"},{"start":14127.719,"end":14146.031,"text":"這四個目標然後再來有九個策略那在這個策略之中我們每年會去針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的"},{"start":14146.431,"end":14156.143,"text":"那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得"},{"start":14164.073,"end":14185.306,"text":"值得拿出來說我們現在的一個那個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛那個AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問好那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分"},{"start":14186.787,"end":14212.734,"text":"去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那"},{"start":14214.054,"end":14228.25,"text":"所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好再給我們一個啟發"},{"start":14229.711,"end":14256.661,"text":"所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究現在哪些單位有 今天站在這裡我請教啦 你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些防灘或者是包含你的業務 你有用AI來做這種科技上的你可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做"},{"start":14258.772,"end":14281.953,"text":"有嗎 只有法務部 其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係 接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問包含司法院 包含法務部 廉政署 包含玄敘部我們在制度設計上 我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業"},{"start":14283.314,"end":14294.347,"text":"人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來獨立的"},{"start":14298.291,"end":14327.504,"text":"跟委員報告 宿攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前連任署的正確性大概是沒有啦 你就我的問題回答有沒有 我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做連任審查會它的連任審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會解案"},{"start":14328.052,"end":14345.083,"text":"你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查"},{"start":14348.251,"end":14368.09,"text":"好 最後最後就是說我們這個看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的那包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有"},{"start":14369.973,"end":14380.31,"text":"這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎"},{"start":14380.865,"end":14398.631,"text":"以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎"},{"start":14410.014,"end":14432.629,"text":"我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養"},{"start":14433.975,"end":14453.237,"text":"所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的"},{"start":14454.017,"end":14473.644,"text":"最後我要請教因為整個單位的風氣包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行草原風行草原上行下效我想請教最後我請法務部長好了風行草原上行下效我想請教您"},{"start":14475.685,"end":14486.329,"text":"您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門"},{"start":14487.373,"end":14506.223,"text":"就陳儒委員我想指證俗感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種"},{"start":14509.959,"end":14517.028,"text":"這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看"},{"start":14518.851,"end":14548.491,"text":"我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有 我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣 有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊"},{"start":14553.336,"end":14566.751,"text":"或是你,你平常帶領你的部署,你怎麼跟他們說?證人要正級,我們是執法單位,我們的證人要正級嘛法務部其實所屬的都是屬於,他們就是一個"},{"start":14568.152,"end":14590.11,"text":"辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策防災政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要"},{"start":14594.634,"end":14619.29,"text":"這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望本來就很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講嘛說凡涉及不法犯罪不分黨派勿枉勿縱嘛"},{"start":14621.055,"end":14630.898,"text":"我是說清廉嘛,清廉的部分呢?我想我們一起全面努力,這個包括公部門、私部門,因為我跟文報告,那個貪腐的問題,從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織,他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐,那個都要解決。"},{"start":14643.382,"end":14662.65,"text":"那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體"},{"start":14667.912,"end":14686.044,"text":"當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14691.454,"end":14720.638,"text":"所有登記發言委員 經理發言完畢 請大家結束委員詢問時 要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請入送交個別委員區本會委員林倩其所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關已書面答覆本日會議議程所列事項已處理完畢六月四日上午九時繼續開會 現在休息 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16725","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea7dcd1dfdf6b0e5229b5fa2f296a93534fdab1a38f0d348c0e6c42a371620bf535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政、司法及法制委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。三、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十、繼續審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、繼續審查委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。十三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十四、繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十五、繼續審查委員范雲等24人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十六、繼續審查委員徐富癸等17人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、繼續審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-02","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-02T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-02T11:20:00+08:00","duration":10201,"影片長度":"02:50:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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權需部 國家發展委員會 行政院性別平等處行政院人事行政總處 行政院主計總處等機關代表及相關人員主席 劉昭基委員許庭討論事項一 繼續審查地方制度法修正草案 暨11案二 審查地方制度法修正草案 暨6案委員范雲 黃婕說明提案要旨決議地方制度法修正草案等17案一 第33條已有共識條文"},{"start":2222.981,"end":2246.129,"text":"第55條第56條第78條第83條之7含修正動議及增訂第83條之12均暫行保留請行政機關暫行研議提出修正意見預計二周後再次排案處理而討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查宣讀完畢謝謝請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2248.803,"end":2251.848,"text":"梅娃豪意思如確定我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2254.793,"end":2280.767,"text":"继续审查委员赖世宝等20人拟据地方制度法第7条之1条文修正草案继续审查委员陈玉珍等18人拟据地方制度法增订第7条之4条文草案继续审查委员吴丽华等17人拟据地方制度法第83条之3条文修正草案继续审查委员吴丽华等16人拟据地方制度法第52条及第61条条文修正草案继续审查委员陈玉珍等18人拟据地方制度法第56条条文修正草案"},{"start":2281.187,"end":2307.497,"text":"继续审查委员李坤诚等20人拟据地方制度法第78条条文修正查案继续审查委员李燕秀等16人拟据地方制度法第55条及第56条条文修正查案继续审查委员高金素美等18人拟据地方制度法第83条至3条文修正查案继续审查委员鲁明哲等16人拟据地方制度法第7条至1条文修正查案继续审查委员徐晓欣等21人拟据地方制度法第55条条文修正查案"},{"start":2307.857,"end":2331.948,"text":"继续审查委员卢宪一等18人拟据地方制度法部分条文修正草案案继续审查委员邱振军等16人拟据地方制度法第55条及第56条条文修正草案继续审查委员苏清泉等19人委员黄杰等18人委员范云等24人委员徐富贵等17人委员许志杰等26人分辨拟据地方制度法第33条条文修正草案案宣读完毕"},{"start":2335.345,"end":2357.219,"text":"好 謝謝本日審查這法案 業經本會於114年5月19日第11屆第三會期第一次內政及司法委員會聯席會議決議令定期繼續審查 延遲本次會議繼續進行審查現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分 我們張宏祿召委"},{"start":2359.232,"end":2385.018,"text":"王美惠委員蘇強惠委員黃婕委員李柏毅委員還有我們高金素美委員還有我們李坤成委員盧憲毅委員以及李燕秀委員官員的部分我們內政部劉思芳部長原住民族委員會我們鍾欣華副主任委員"},{"start":2386.909,"end":2394.013,"text":"還有我們財政部阮清華政務次長補充介紹我們徐益臻委員也到現場這個委員都有了嗎好"},{"start":2403.053,"end":2425.624,"text":"我跟聯席委員會報告一下因為今天我們有收到新的這個有關於第55條及56條的修正動議那現在議事人員正在進行印發我們在這樣他在印製的過程中我們先請這個我們先請這個議事人員針對新增的修正動議進行宣讀第56條"},{"start":2432.438,"end":2452.86,"text":"第二項前段修正為縣市政府置秘書長一人並得置副秘書長一人其餘同委員陳玉珍等版本其餘同委員陳玉珍等版本等提案版本修正動議第61條"},{"start":2456.365,"end":2476.095,"text":"增訂第三項直轄市長、縣市長、鄉鎮市長依第七十八條第一項獲公職人員選舉罷免法第117條第一項規定停職期間不得發給新籍依其依第七十八條第三項第五項獲公職人員選舉罷免法第117條第二項規定復職後予以補發"},{"start":2481.107,"end":2498.144,"text":"原第三項一列第四項其餘同現行條文提案人委員王美惠黃婕蘇巧惠李坤成修正動議第五十五條增訂第一項"},{"start":2500.322,"end":2527.166,"text":"第一項修正為直轄市政府至市長院對外代表該市縱理市政由市民依法選舉之每屆任期四年連選得連任一屆至副市長三人商助市長處理市政職務均比照檢認第十四職等由市長任命並報請行政院被查增訂第五項中華民國春年春月春日修正之第一項規定自一百十五年一月一日施行其餘同現行條文"},{"start":2528.82,"end":2552.46,"text":"第五十六條第一項中斷增訂致富縣市長二人增訂第五項中華民國圈年圈月圈日修正之第一項規定自一百十五年一月一日施行其其與同現行條文提案人委員牛許廷等十一人宣讀完畢"},{"start":2564.448,"end":2573.695,"text":"好 報告聯席會我們現在延續上次會議的決議我們進行暫時保留的條文協商現在進行註聊協商"},{"start":2644.548,"end":2659.859,"text":"好 大家手上資料都拿到了嗎那我們一條一條來 好不好七之一 連續兩次沒來 我們就不許修正 可以嗎有沒有問題 好 謝謝七之四 一樣 其他人沒有來嘛三次了嘛 那我們就不許採納 可以嗎三三條 上次基本上達成共識嘛 對不對我們照委員會審查版本通過 可以嗎"},{"start":2677.49,"end":2699.905,"text":"有簽字的嘛有婦人保障這個嘛 來 這裡應該大家都有啦我們不確定啦 好不好委員會審查完了版本因為今天天天禮拜有的沒來的時候 如果需要補充的 要印一下嗎印就給他印一下好不好請他再印一下印一下 桌上應該有吧對 桌上有啦"},{"start":2731.021,"end":2738.886,"text":"好 應該沒有問題好不好我們這邊就速判速決好不好好52條一樣提案委員不在場 我們就不予處理喔 可以嗎"},{"start":2741.442,"end":2767.45,"text":"好 五十五條 五十六條有修正動議那個我跟大家先簡報一下就是說上次我們討論五十五跟五十六基本上就是副市長跟副縣長的配套嘛那上次大家在那邊討論說是不是有藝人設施或量身打造的問題那我們那邊講其實講得也蠻清楚其實是因為財政收支劃分法明年要上路之後地方的市權增加所以其實在人員上應該要增加讓地方政府好做事啦"},{"start":2767.91,"end":2791.699,"text":"那這一次提出來的陳超平委員有提修正動議他談的是副秘書長的部分那我們先請他發言那待會李彥秀委員應該說我這邊提出的修正動議的部分我會來做補充發言好不好我們先請陳超平委員首先啦我謝謝主席關於支持我們都是一個副市長副縣長我們原則都是全力的支持"},{"start":2792.577,"end":2801.459,"text":"那今天我特別在修正同意裡面提出得志婦女死長藝人那可能我的經歷比較特別"},{"start":2802.608,"end":2826.277,"text":"我不是依老賣老我從省議員選到立法院都是選全線的那給我感觸非常的深都市在選舉的時候都很平的路但是回六都的時候山上哪個地方要跑譬如苗栗我由北跑到南大概要50分鐘到一個小時的車程當時是全線線的選舉"},{"start":2830.299,"end":2856.947,"text":"那現在百姓對於政府的要求越來越多大家都曉得不管市長、縣長或是兩個副市長在跑行程的時候要面面機到但是祕師長是佔了一個很重要的地位那普通啊如果只有一個縣長一個市長一個副縣長那實在跑不來祕師長有時候都要出去但是祕師長是一個跟縣"},{"start":2859.75,"end":2876.045,"text":"市政府是一種非常決策單位的一個單位在那我想在這個地方如果能多生一個副秘書長尤其在財政收支化分來以後我相信對於市政府或是縣政府的幫忙很大"},{"start":2876.886,"end":2897.391,"text":"我希望這一點不要以人事的多寡,面積才是最重要我實際講,選舉期間,南北噴波,現在分成兩個選區大概三個月我就要換一次輪胎,你沒照過在城坡,沒在照過你都不知道跑來跑去的時候,那個是實在"},{"start":2899.454,"end":2912.221,"text":"要費很大的心力那今天我還請內政委員會能增設一個負面市場但是用德無限政府去決定這樣看大家各位能不能考慮一下好我們還有人要補充一下嗎"},{"start":2921.994,"end":2939.664,"text":"我們556一起討論好了因為我覺得這樣其實比較快啦我跟大家說明一下55條56條我們這邊的修正動議齁因為上次我們討論的時候就是到底狀況是怎麼樣嘛那我們講說既然是因應財政收支劃分法那其實就是概念很單純基本上六都就是固定制"},{"start":2940.464,"end":2959.773,"text":"副市長三人但是有所謂的日出條款也就是從因為現在財化法你預算要編要等等基本上其實就是明年才上路那我們這個副市長三人的這個機制的上路的時間我們就一樣壓在明年的1月1號這樣讓他完全齊平因為你執行新的預算增加新的試卷都是在明年初開始"},{"start":2960.433,"end":2980.942,"text":"那我們就不要一人設置就是在那個時候才開始做制度的調整這是55條三個副市長然後加日出條款56條的部分因為財政收支劃分法的修正之後也不只是直轄市的任務變多縣市政府的工作一樣變多所以就每一個縣市也就不要分了就是兩個都是兩個副縣長"},{"start":2983.183,"end":2998.847,"text":"那加上剛剛陳昌明委員提是不是可以得志副秘書長一人那我們一樣統一由明年年初一二一號配合財政措施劃分法新的預算一起上路好這是我們這邊國民黨黨團這邊提出修正東西的內容那我們聽聽各位委員的意見跟看法 以上我們請徐執政委員先然後我們請那個李柏毅委員好不好"},{"start":3006.459,"end":3030.472,"text":"謝謝昭緯我想其實為什麼說要再增加一位副市長因為大家可以知道其實我們現在的這個地方制度法過去修法的過程我們是在99年增加人口250萬以上的直轄市可以再增設副市長一人但是15年過去了期間都沒有再檢討過副市長的人數跟條件但是隨著地方事務的這個多元跟繁雜不管是長照環保公務還有城市發展"},{"start":3032.893,"end":3059.733,"text":"事物的值跟量都大幅的在增加更不要說是在財化法通過之後地方政府要承接起更多來自中央的業務所以這都是需要增加副市長的一個原因再來就是說因為現在受到全國少子女化的趨勢的一個影響其實很多居住在都會區的他推動的不管是基礎建設或規劃的城市願景維持的都市運行不會因為人口的浮動而縮減"},{"start":3060.894,"end":3077.456,"text":"其實都持續需要副市長的相助政務來督導市政第二個因為生活圈的一個生活形態的改變有許多的通勤族雖然居住在外縣市但是每日往返到不管是台北或新北雙北之間"},{"start":3078.317,"end":3092.222,"text":"工作人口都需要有市政建設對其提供服務所以在才化法修正過後相關的預算會配合會計年度做出調整所以我們也是希望統一從明年的1月1號起施行謝謝"},{"start":3098.792,"end":3122.254,"text":"其實我們在討論這個地方制度法的時候我們就有一直提到跟財化法應該是一起討論那今天很遺憾國民黨委員提出來的這一些第55條的這個版本反而是倒果為因就是說財化法我已經給你多多少錢了所以市長我要增加 副市長我要增加而且喔 而且我是要從"},{"start":3125.21,"end":3142.411,"text":"115年1月1號開始請不要忘了一開始我們在質疑這一點的時候就是在說這個就是為了蔣萬安嘛這個就是為了蔣萬安如果他的副市長請辭去選舉他不能再補一個副市長會讓他更不會做事嗎這個"},{"start":3144.413,"end":3163.779,"text":"所以我們還是要提出來我們針對這個條款我認為地方制度法跟財化法這個需要整盤的討論而不是說你先把先把果拿走了先把財化法先把台北市增加預算了然後就說我們不行喔我們不能少一個副市長喔我們要增加一個副市長而且你看這個"},{"start":3164.759,"end":3192.05,"text":"今天提出來這個修正動議是115年1月1號開始實施就是什麼就是他副市長辭掉之後他可以趕快再補一個讓蔣萬安保包條款可以落實在這個地方制度法裡面讓他可以再補一個副市長我覺得應該是整體來討論而不是用一個因人設施的方式來做這個修法啦這是我在提出來的這個看法跟我們之前的"},{"start":3192.39,"end":3211.218,"text":"跟我之前提出來的論點是一模一樣的 謝謝好我再補充說明一下齁我覺得這種倒果為因講是有點奇怪啦就難道是為了李四川跟蔣萬歲修才化法嗎不是嘛才化法修正通過已經是一個事實了嘛那既然是一個事實就要處理嘛"},{"start":3212.145,"end":3235.493,"text":"對不對你如果要這樣講那是其中一部分你先不要打斷我嘛我一樣發言的決定好不好我等一下給你發言的時間等我一下好不好這第一個那第二個上次我們上次我們在委員會討論是不是就有人講說只要修正完之後就馬上就有李士川辭職的問題然後怎樣怎樣怎樣那我們講嘛我們始終的立場都是因為是財政收支劃分法所以要處理人事緣和的一個調整嘛"},{"start":3236.013,"end":3264.68,"text":"所以為了讓這件事情更確定也更完整所以我們做了修正東西加日出條款其實邏輯上並沒有改變嘛就一樣的意思嘛就是明年才上路啊你如果說不管各個縣市你要搞選舉佈局或什麼那也要等到明年明年才來做處理嘛對不對你今年馬上辭職那也就是那也就是欲缺不補嘛對不對日出條款的原因就是要對齊裁判法的真正的上路的日期啦好不好我再次補充做說明好各位委員委員會委員要先嗎"},{"start":3267.372,"end":3275.155,"text":"就是在這裏我覺得我的意見是有這個想法說實在因為明年營業以後大致這台的管理廠保安在裡面所以大家會這樣想我說我們要不要用這台"},{"start":3289.021,"end":3302.49,"text":"過,會心靈的,再來有這個想法啦因為我覺得每一個想法,我們都是說,要去尊重以我自己來講,我今天去看的說,跟你們怎麼討論,怎麼討論跟我自己吃都不一樣,跟我自己吃的面子很大吃得著要吃,負吃得著要吃說實在也很辛苦,是怎麼自己吃,不然比白人還小啊"},{"start":3317.8,"end":3325.87,"text":"沒有,是因為那個是另外再修的才有,古代的都沒看到啊是現在有,所以我覺得大家做參考說,我們也不能浪費"},{"start":3333.999,"end":3343.141,"text":"我們國庫的錢,我們這個財務法不是說本本的要來站這裡,或是要來站副市長,或是站什麼,我認為會被佩姓想這樣也不好,跟剛才柏毅說的時候,是大家有自己的想法,如果有自己的想法,我們要怎麼去解釋,就很清楚了啦,跟我的主張是覺得說,我們如果這個過,來處理,可以"},{"start":3363.346,"end":3364.447,"text":"這個 想說有可能因為誰落在這個法庭上是不是會有這個情形啊 醫生"},{"start":3376.846,"end":3399.646,"text":"徐醫生委員 然後蘇蔣會委員好 謝謝好 黃建委員好 謝謝 謝謝昭偉我想在這邊也謝謝民進黨的委員什麼都講到 想到蔣萬安為蔣萬安設想我想這件事我們今天做這樣祭祀法的修正絕對不是因人設事而是針對整體的考量包括我剛剛提到的就是說台北市 好 剛剛講到台北市台北市的人口多的時候"},{"start":3400.126,"end":3420.961,"text":"推動的基礎建設規劃的城市願景維持著都市運行不會因為人口的浮動而縮減所以他當然持續需要有一個副市長來相助政務督導市政這是我們今天特別提出來的希望還是能夠我們的這個都而且不是走台北市是六都我們都希望有這個三位副市長來相助"},{"start":3422.182,"end":3447.149,"text":"而且再來就是說我們都知道雙北很多都是不管是從這個桃園來的新竹來的甚至基隆來的都是通勤人口在台北市工作所以說它整個的規模呢其實呢還是需要市政建設對其提供服務所以我覺得這個部分我們就是很就事論事的來針對這個地質法的一個修正來去做一個討論希望不要再去扯什麼個案啊因人甚事 謝謝來 黃教委"},{"start":3454.377,"end":3473.553,"text":"喂喂喂好那我的想法是如果真的是因为才化法要一起讨论的话其实在去年年去年下半年的时候就应该要跟才化法来一起讨论了毕竟我们当时也不断的呼吁说地方制度法里面的是权的事项跟才化法的这个钱应该是要一致来讨论的"},{"start":3474.113,"end":3496.152,"text":"但非常可惜的是去年下半年我們看到的就是國民黨不斷的過水市的這樣子的通過然後不斷的加速的在把這個財化法通過然後甚至也不聽各縣市的意見包括我們南部縣市導致於我們南部縣市其實像高雄市在財化法裡面受傷最重的因為增加的這個預算最少那"},{"start":3497.593,"end":3514.13,"text":"現在你跟我說因為才化法修了所以我們才要來修地方制度法那是不是太慢了呢那包括這個地方事務的一些事項其實早在去年就應該討論那我們現在要討論可以那是不是把所有哪一些事權要重新分配地方都拿出來討論啊怎麼會現在只討論為了一個副市長然後就說是因應才化法聽起來其實是有一點牽強的"},{"start":3521.897,"end":3542.842,"text":"那我認為要討論市權分配可以那我們重新把這個財化法裡面的到底哪一些錢重新撥給地方了哪一些市權應該要在地方制度法裡面一項一項的拿出來討論我覺得都可以但不可以單單的討論這個要增加三個副市長這件事情因為這樣很明顯是為了要包裝"},{"start":3544.042,"end":3546.783,"text":"剛剛說的只是為了要讓蔣萬安有第三個副市長可以可以保護那我會覺得這很明顯很明顯是在保護蔣萬安啦所以我們說他是一個蔣萬安條款其實也也非常的對恰如其分這個就是大家質疑的嘛那我覺得如果"},{"start":3564.949,"end":3581.942,"text":"要讓大家覺得說這是一個公平而且非常合理而且不是因人設事的一個考量那我覺得日出條款不應該從明年開始最少最少也是從下一屆開始嘛你要讓大家說服大家說沒有我不是為了要保護蔣安安那你至少說明年2026年下半年的這個縣市長選舉的時候"},{"start":3586.105,"end":3601.16,"text":"新的一屆開始再生效這樣是不是比較合情合理呢那再來我還是講一下其實啊這個我們過去地質法裡面要不要設幾個副的副手都是有一個非常公平性的考量就是我們會看"},{"start":3603.281,"end":3621.906,"text":"這個直轄市裡面然後縣市裡面的人口數所以人口數是一個非常明確的指標也非常的公平那現在如果我們修法直接把人口數這個指標拿掉了那至少要拿出一個可以說服全國人民的一個參考的指標吧我們到底是依據什麼樣的指標來訂定要幾位副市長呢而不是一概而論不論你的"},{"start":3627.968,"end":3652.756,"text":"縣市人口是180萬還是400萬通通都有三個副市長那這樣子對於市權的分配真的有幫助嗎我給大家舉一個例子其實在韓國裡面他們有六個廣域市他們的廣域市大概就是我們的直轄市韓國的法律裡面規定是如果你是廣域市那你就有兩個副市長那如果你的人口超過800萬你才可以有第三個副市長"},{"start":3653.636,"end":3671.964,"text":"這個也是其實很多國家也都是這樣定定的就是你一個像我們直轄市等級這樣的一個城市裡面都會設一個人數的門檻沒有說什麼一律都是三個人這麼的死板這樣子對於城市的治理有幫助嗎我反而是打一個問號"},{"start":3673.124,"end":3689.072,"text":"所以我希望大家可以參考包括國際的經驗也好包括我們過去地方制度法訂定的這樣的過程也好我都認為人口數是一個非常公平而且行之有年的指標希望大家可以把人口數這個指標留著謝謝謝謝55 56大家還有什麼想法嗎"},{"start":3695.839,"end":3716.165,"text":"蘇曉慧委員請好 謝謝主席我想今天這個在修法的部分雖然我們看起來很認真在討論這個地方制度法的修正但我還是覺得很遺憾這一屆立法的修法品質在去年度的時候其實我們看得到的就是這樣"},{"start":3717.305,"end":3731.101,"text":"炒成一片的狀態這種國會擴權的法案但現在這一屆我們好不容易可以安安靜靜做下來了可是其實你認真來看我們的修法我們並沒有把它是整套"},{"start":3732.502,"end":3759.721,"text":"縱向橫向所有方方面面一起考慮乍看之下這個條文看起來好像不錯可是實際上你回去看對應其他的事物其實並沒有達到配套完整的說法為什麼會這樣說呢大家可以看嘛以現在中央地方在處理權責這樣的事物來說的話我們之前的才化法是地方從中央拿走了錢"},{"start":3761.051,"end":3768.498,"text":"現在地方制度法是要人可是從頭到尾現在一年多的時間我們有討論事務事權怎麼分配嗎其實完全沒有啊事情沒有分配好卻拿走了錢增加了人那這到底是要處理什麼未來國家的事務從中央到地方到底要怎麼分"},{"start":3782.911,"end":3800.211,"text":"這件事情其實沒有被討論過這就是今天最可怕的地方所以我們的立場當然外界會說你們民進黨如果有意見為什麼不提出版本各位我們的版本其實從頭到尾從去年到現在至始至終都是這一些所有相關的法條都應該一起討論討論好了之後"},{"start":3803.374,"end":3828.161,"text":"所有的法案才下去一併做修正所以我們的立場就是不應該一段一段巨艦式的沒有中心思想的沒有配套的討論這是我們的版本這是我們的想法一以貫之那你如果是說其他的性別等等對啊那我們大家就可以來討論這無色中央地方是全是入的劃分所以我覺得這裡我們要再一次的提出"},{"start":3829.722,"end":3836.013,"text":"這個再一次的對大眾說明我們本黨的立場是什麼這是第一件事情那第二件事情的話其實"},{"start":3838.417,"end":3863.884,"text":"剛剛也有委員說這個國民黨提出的版本絕對不是因人設事各位大家都知道嘛這有因才有果啊你為什麼要修這個一定是有起心動念起心動念大家很明白的是現在的實務上面是什麼就是台北市的狀況可能要發生變動所以台北市的委員率先提出了這樣的修法版本那也難怪大家會認為這就是台北市的特定條款"},{"start":3866.365,"end":3886.177,"text":"就是這麼清楚那所以台北市的特定條款對其他的縣市有沒有保護會不會像財化法修完了以後又是獨厚台北這些本來就已經不錯的縣市像我在在的說啊如果你要一起考量的話那新北市你加上原口指標那250萬就可以有3席那我們新北400萬是不是有4席"},{"start":3888.738,"end":3907.303,"text":"當然是可以考慮啊國民黨在新北也有六席委員那他們怎麼沒有提出這種版本在國民黨內就已經進行討論成為國民黨的共識這是反而是國民黨的新北市委員應該要負責任的啊本黨的立場在這裡我再次的聲明我們是所有的法案要配套一起討論的這是我們的立場嘛"},{"start":3909.244,"end":3936.299,"text":"所以如果你單單在這裡要加上這個這個第幾席 第幾席這個是國民黨新北市委員也應該要率先提出的啊所以在這裡的話我們還是認為說這樣子的修法絕對會是一個因人設事這是無庸置疾今天如果也是用表決通過的話那這個條款就是確實是為台北市量身打造好 先讓我說明一下好不好我們再接著發言可以嗎"},{"start":3938.021,"end":3963.599,"text":"要有兩種身份切換嘛對啊,那不然怎麼辦呢?是這樣,不過我現在很有效率啦你可以說,沒關係我現在撇除主席,我回覆我個人的我說明一下,然後我們就...到底為了什麼而修這個法,就是很清楚嘛裁判法的修正通過,它本來就是個事實嘛那剛剛喬惠委員講,事權會怎麼變換不管怎麼變換,這我相信大家都有概念就一定是地方的事變多嘛一定是地方的事變多"},{"start":3965.183,"end":3980.141,"text":"不管是哪些事情變多地方的事都會變多嘛對不對對不對所以這個一定會討論而且一定會移轉這我想是 我想是這樣啦所以我是覺得不管怎麼樣該可以這是可以被處理的嘛對不對我覺得大家講不同的意見沒有關係啦那"},{"start":3980.822,"end":4003.599,"text":"第二個是我其實是蠻希望看到大家不同委員如果有想法就有不同的版本比如說包含新北市要不要有新北市條款我覺得很好啊只要大家願意提提到這個地方我希望我主持會議本來就是大家都可以充分表達然後把各自的意見留在紀錄裡面嘛這其實是大家期待希望看到立法院的樣子那我們都盡量成就這件事情所以今天也許這個條文不會有共識那不會有共識那就照"},{"start":4004.119,"end":4025.322,"text":"本來就照議事規則就交黨團協商來做處理其實也就可以了但沒關係我今天就趁這個機會大家針對55 56這兩個條文充分的發言留下我們內政委員會的審查紀錄OK嗎好那剛剛是這應該是紅路召委先啊紅路召委先沒關係嗎好那吳清明委員好召委"},{"start":4026.584,"end":4034.388,"text":"針對55條,56條,55條的副市長,增設一個其實增設一個我是不反對,但是什麼時候要實施呢?因為說過去,我們想說議員三分之一就要一個女性那我們適用的時間是在119年就是"},{"start":4051.738,"end":4074.126,"text":"2030年你這樣才能因為不要說你了選舉為人而設你這樣來我們可以來討論也可以來通過但是時間上我本市我的建議是在119年跟議員同步因為縣市長跟議員都是同步的選舉是不是這樣這是我看法我希望說召委來做才是謝謝"},{"start":4081.243,"end":4100.013,"text":"好 謝謝吳清明委員 現在我們請李坤成委員謝謝主席 我先講56條好了 56條現在是修正動議是說可以設置這個副縣市長兩人就對了然後如果是在125萬以上再增設一人嗎 是這個意思嗎沒有 就是兩個人嗎"},{"start":4104.704,"end":4121.325,"text":"不管人口數多少沒有原則上是兩人啦我想我剛剛問了一下提案委員因為我有注意到這件事情因為他沒有把那個條文拿掉啦他沒有把125萬那個其實如果有固定兩人有沒有其實後面那個條文就不用了你這樣子整個法律的結構才會對稱"},{"start":4122.692,"end":4143.934,"text":"阿對阿所以我是覺得說因為我這樣看好像是說一百二十五萬以上阿還要得偵緝對那個沒有拿掉會混亂所以那個要把它拿掉這樣是對的阿所以是對你講的是對的所以是兩個還是三個兩個兩個嘛對阿所以這個應該要修吧修要修嘛對我們就先討論嘛因為大家不同然後我們就再形成版本好那五十六條這個比較單純我們先講一下啦謝謝坤城委員的提醒"},{"start":4145.255,"end":4158.805,"text":"55條其實我另一件也是就是說如果你不要讓人覺得說你是因人設事那其實就是我們在明年的12月25號的時候在設我覺得大家又不會覺得說你看就是蔣萬安或是李四川"},{"start":4159.785,"end":4188.537,"text":"那如果說怕外界有這個疑慮的話我就覺得說好那如果要設三個那就設三個那等到這一個明年的12月15號跟新的那個縣市跟新的直轄市市長一起上任啦我覺得這樣子大家的意見可能會比較少一點謝謝好謝謝昆城委員的提醒這個我做一下說明56條的部分如果做修正動議的話文字會再做調整啦因為現在就是也不是說只是增加直轄市的副市長嘛縣市我們也同意大家兩個人這樣"},{"start":4192.009,"end":4220.206,"text":"會 可以 沒關係剛剛這個 美惠委員有講嘉義的部分對不對所以我們講縣市的部分也都會變成兩人那既然變成兩人其實就沒有所謂的人口條款啦所以這個到時候文字會再做調整跟修正這我跟大家做一下報告那麼日出條款的部分容我再次說明啦就總要有理由嘛比如說我們上次討論33條這個性別保障名額它之所以要拉到2030年的上路是因為你的三席三席等等的一個選區它其實牽涉政黨的布局嘛"},{"start":4220.626,"end":4235.148,"text":"那麼政黨的布局本來就有人才拔佐那是需要時間培養的嘛所以你馬上上路他必然會造成衝擊所以那個原因跟結果是很清楚的那同樣我們今天去講副市長的部分也是一樣嘛是因為財政收支劃分法嘛所以你如果延到比如說2026"},{"start":4236.65,"end":4263.959,"text":"甚至更久之後那當然你這兩年來講其實就會有問題嘛不好意思打斷一下下就好沒關係沒關係在整個提案說明裡面完全沒有提到那個才化法啊整個說明裡面都是講人口欸根本沒有提到才化法啊才化法是後來你自己講的啊我看提案說明裡面根本就根本沒有提到沒有提到才化法這件事情啊好還有誰要講 誰要補充嗎"},{"start":4267.532,"end":4269.793,"text":"你一直把時間讓出去好 請張宏祿委員我覺得我們在修這個法知識體大剛剛大家講過的我都不再重複了"},{"start":4281.67,"end":4305.978,"text":"不過你用一個直轄市或是縣市你要增加一個副市長或副縣長我認為總要有一個理由啦我們以前的縣型條文還有說人口在250萬以上得增設那你現在不管如何你直轄市就是三個也不管如何你縣市就是兩個我覺得這裡面完全沒有標準"},{"start":4307.031,"end":4316.126,"text":"你也沒有依人口也沒有依面積我覺得這個齁我們在訂法律齁我覺得要對得起全台灣的人我"},{"start":4319.209,"end":4336.716,"text":"不要只明縣市啦 有的縣市連十萬人都沒超過你就設兩個副縣長他事情有那麼多嗎你去看我們很多大企業他有設一堆副董事長嗎他們人家企業的營運也是都很好啊"},{"start":4337.725,"end":4366.522,"text":"對不對 我覺得我們在這個不能夠齊頭式的一個平等一個去做你很多縣市你人口沒有超過蔣俊藍你才幾萬人你也兩個我覺得這個 我坦白講 我在立這個法我會覺得愧對我們立法委員的職責啦你全部都是兩個這個我覺得沒有一套標準在這個大家要思考一下那再來"},{"start":4370.073,"end":4388.528,"text":"那再來你說日出條款或什麼我個人真的覺得啦也都不用吵了啦你就下一屆或下下屆這一屆齁這一屆齁大家都會覺得為了誰為了誰阿如果我們是立一個法不是為了誰我們為了長治久安那你下屆或下下屆"},{"start":4389.269,"end":4418.408,"text":"那也有一個讓全台灣人知道以後就是這樣他之後他在投票的時候他就會知道說我這次投了你的哪個人你有可能會選誰當副市長或副縣長這也是給人民的一個選舉的一個權利我覺得從這兩方面來思考會比較好不然完全都沒有一個標準就說這樣子就三個然後縣市有兩個我真的覺得"},{"start":4419.469,"end":4436.158,"text":"不應該啦那像剛剛巧惠也有講的啊你說人口400萬的啊跟人口200多啊反正只要是直轄市啊就是這樣我覺得啦大家要再思考一下啦這一點我先這樣子發言謝謝大家"},{"start":4438.364,"end":4464.734,"text":"來 請續政委我想我再次的說明為什麼我們主張要明年1月1號就要提出這樣的一個施行的日期因為大家都知道財化法已經25年沒有修正過了這次剛好財化法修法過後其實有很多的事權需要重新的調整跟分配還有相關的預算會配合會計年度做出調整當然也給縣市政府就是檢討現在的副市長或是副縣長"},{"start":4466.214,"end":4475.401,"text":"業務督導分工的時間所以說為什麼我們主張會從明年的1月1號開始施行就是因為剛好茵茵才化髮的修正以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們還有個人要補充嗎來 請黃介委員"},{"start":4483.968,"end":4506.99,"text":"好那我希望等一下可不可以让部长说明一下就是针对所有委员的发言因为毕竟他们在行政单位还是要对于这个做出一个说明那我还是再补充一下就是第一个到底才化法跟我们今天修的地方制度法有没有明确的关系这个大家可以看一下今天这个提案说明其实在说明栏里面完全没有提到才化法"},{"start":4508.345,"end":4524.371,"text":"完全沒有提到才化法所以才化法修完之後才來跟我們說要修地方制度法這本身就非常的牽強再者如果是因為要修才化法才來修地方制度法我們要修的內容應該是事權的分配"},{"start":4525.231,"end":4529.453,"text":"應該要是業務的需求應該是要讓大家知道說當初因為修了才化法我們就應該一併的拿出來討論到底哪一些業務分配接下來地方要自己執行但是都沒有啊當初的討論沒有現在的討論也沒有現在的討論是什麼我們在討論到底要不要所有的直轄市都有三個副市長"},{"start":4548.294,"end":4574.467,"text":"可不可以如果真的是因為財化法我們就先討論錢跟事情到底怎麼分配解決了之後再來討論這個人第三個副市長要不要有好不好這是第一個再來我剛剛其實我剛剛已經講得很明確這個希望我們等一下部長再多說明就是到底我們的縣市裡面的要有幾個副手是不是需要一個公平客觀的依據像我剛剛講的"},{"start":4575.307,"end":4602.028,"text":"国际上所有的城市很诸多都是利用这个人口数来作为依据或者是说它的土地面积这是一个非常务实的考量嘛你总要有一个客观的依据告诉人民说对你们给我们的纳税钱我们会拿来用来增一个副市长是因为我们这里人口很多所以我们需要有更多的一个多一个副手来处理这一块或者是说因为我们这边土地特别大"},{"start":4602.708,"end":4625.951,"text":"跑不完然後需要有更多的一個主管機關來照顧這個土地面積遼闊的問題所以才有這樣的依據去新增一個副市長但是在這個提案說明裡面都沒有看到相關的理由啊所以我至今仍然不知道為什麼在台灣的所有的直轄市都必須要有三個副市長理由是什麼看不出來"},{"start":4627.072,"end":4642.977,"text":"所以在我們 我們才會合理的懷疑是因人涉事嘛如果你們覺得不是因人涉事要給我們一個理由啊到底為什麼要拿人民的納稅權去多養一個副市長然後沒有告訴我為什麼我要放這個位子我要多徵涉這個官位"},{"start":4644.142,"end":4659.429,"text":"難道不是為了蔣萬安嗎我們看起來就是啊如果不是的話要講清楚嘛那如果真的不是最後我就是講日出條款嘛怎麼會是明年1月1號開始實施呢要也是明年底12月25號新的一屆才開始啊這就是最公平不會有涉及事務的問題嘛所以以上是不是可以先請我們部長來跟我們說明一下就是這個依據到底是什麼"},{"start":4669.434,"end":4689.891,"text":"人口數好不好如果不用人口數用什麼當作標準比較好再來多養一個副市長要多少錢這個要不要也跟大家說明一下可以嗎 謝謝好 謝謝在那個部會說明之前我一定要再補充說明一下我一定要再補充一下這個"},{"start":4692.881,"end":4711.372,"text":"反正我看到底什麼時候要日出確定是沒有共識嘛當然雙方各執己見再講下去也沒有結果啦反正各自有留下紀錄嘛我們就是認為要配合事權來做調整嘛對不對好不好然後我說明一下業務的部分啦"},{"start":4712.441,"end":4733.535,"text":"其實在各個地方政治的實踐上面副縣長或副市長不管是直轄市或縣市他的業務基本上就是督導各局處那第二個是做跨局處的政策協調那我講嘛才會把修正通過各局處的業務會增加所以我們希望多一點人手處理這件事剛剛有很多委員有講比如說人口的部分大家可能略有不同"},{"start":4734.375,"end":4760.652,"text":"可是我稍微查了一下不管是因為人口或是面積其實在局處的數量大家都是盡量基本上都是滿編的狀態啦就是即便像也許是苗園也許是金門也都是接近20個局處市啦我如果沒有了解錯我剛查了一下都是超過20個局處市嘛你現在變直轄市大概是30個局處市嘛30幾個局處市嘛那30幾個局處市如果是三個副市長對不對就一個人督導大概10個左右嘛然後並且進行橫向協調嘛那你縣市大概也就20個左右其實就是兩個副縣長"},{"start":4761.593,"end":4787.245,"text":"我覺得大家去查一下是從這樣子的一個角度來做切入一樣我們就留下記錄好 大家說明那我們請行政機關做一下補充除了剛剛委員那些疑問之外另外一個我想特別請那個那部分說明一下或者人事總署說明一下有關於副秘書長的部分因為我剛剛看一下現在的條文好像沒有特別去講副秘書長那可是實際上各個縣市政府也好 直轄市政府好像也有副秘書長所以說這個東西的實踐是實踐是什麼"},{"start":4790.694,"end":4813.024,"text":"好 是不是說明一下 好不好好 好 全序部 反正就可以相關說明我們就一併處理好不好 謝謝好 謝謝召委 謝謝各位委員的關心我想根據剛剛幾位委員的發言我做一下總結的部分就是有關直轄市縣市副首長要增設一名副縣長或副市長的部分大概是這樣子"},{"start":4813.964,"end":4834.834,"text":"這個提案委員大概有許巧欣委員、李燕秀委員、陳玉珍委員跟邱振軍委員那現在加了臨時提案的修正條文是陳超明委員那我先跟大家報告一下目前我們現行的這個法律裡面所提到地方制度法是按照人口的比例來設縣市的副縣市長那如果按照這個現在提案的影響的話就是在直轄市裡面"},{"start":4842.637,"end":4857.776,"text":"桃園市台南市可以增加一位副市長這就是那個李燕秀委員的這個版本那台北市是維持三位副市長但是呢副市長大部分應該啦目前為止全部都是政治任命也就是都是政務副市長那有關全國的部分"},{"start":4860.7,"end":4872.97,"text":"也就是如果按照陳玉珍委員的版本的話全國是增加了16位副縣長那李燕秀版本的話呢全國是增加7位副縣長那這些包括彰化縣、屏東縣、新竹縣、苗栗縣、嘉義縣、南投縣或者是邱振軍委員版本的話是10位副縣長因為他有加入這個土地面積"},{"start":4883.658,"end":4906.957,"text":"宜蘭縣、新竹縣、苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣、屏東縣、台東縣跟花蓮縣那這個部分呢提供給各位參考那目前這個包括日本或者是韓國的案例的話他們還是以人口為準那也沒有錯到目前為止我們現在的現行條文裡面呢是以人口來做這個主要的一個判刑的這個標準決刑的標準"},{"start":4909.179,"end":4927.058,"text":"那最主要還是因為各縣市的不管市長或是縣長他們都是民選我們在民選的時候的選票還是要以當地的社級的戶籍為主而不是流動人口所以這也是另外一個在判刑標準上面比較可以相對性的提供一個客觀的這個部分"},{"start":4928.579,"end":4949.318,"text":"那再來就是剛剛苗栗縣的陳超明委員所提的社副秘書長的部分那有關於社秘書長是幾個執政的部分呢我就請這個不管是人事行政總署或是權序部來做說明那陳超明委員所提到的社這個副秘書長一人看起來應該是政務任命"},{"start":4954.858,"end":4974.77,"text":"我們現在的地方制度上面有關人口的部分在每個縣市政府大家都知道會有一個叫參議參議他設在那個地方通常都是縣市長在調節人事所需也就是說如果他的高階文官不管他是事務或者是政務官有出現狀況的話都會移到參議職"},{"start":4977.552,"end":4988.54,"text":"那如果說現在就加設一個副秘書長的話呢參議職可能就會被取消那同時呢在一般就非直轄市的這些縣市的部分呢所提到的副秘書長的職等呢通常都是11職等而不是12職等那所以以上幾個縣型的這各位委員在討論的部分呢提供給大家參考那同時剛剛黃姐委員提到說增設一個副市長要多少"},{"start":5003.41,"end":5030.319,"text":"只有副市長一人一個人沒有其他的秘書我們的涉算大概是700萬元那如果是非直轄市的話涉算大概是500萬元以上其他各個單位有沒有要做補充的來全序部有在嗎來那個"},{"start":5032.455,"end":5050.867,"text":"部長有請你補充說明嗎對啊我的意思是說你找他原因是什麼副秘書長現在寫在法條裡面看起來就是變成是事務任用嘛所以就變成跟權序有關係是這個意思嗎我再釐清一下不好意思根據委員報告"},{"start":5053.552,"end":5075.384,"text":"現在有關直轄市副秘書長的規定是在地方行政機關準則裡面規定不是在地方行政機關準則是在準則裡面規定那目前的規定是直轄市原則上是兩位副秘書長如果250萬以上三位副秘書長"},{"start":5076.405,"end":5095.874,"text":"但是縣市的部分因為牽涉到現在秘書長是十二指等然後這個政府任用的處長是十二等常務是十一等中間好像並沒有位置了這個部分是不是請全局部來做說明好 局部專委有請前面麥克風"},{"start":5114.225,"end":5127.833,"text":"目前依照內政部訂定的那個地方行政機關組織準則那第十條規定之下是秘書長一人那副秘書長是兩人那依照"},{"start":5131.448,"end":5158.38,"text":"第十四條的規定縣市政府是自秘書長一人沒有這部分沒有自秘副秘書長那列等的部分那列等的部分直轄市政府目前的秘書長是列十三到十四等那副秘書長是列十二到十三等那至於縣市政府目前秘書長部分是列十一到十二值等以上"},{"start":5160.223,"end":5174.685,"text":"對 沒有副秘書長 目前沒有副秘書長來 我們再請蘇小慧委 沒關係我們再討論一下"},{"start":5176.252,"end":5201.909,"text":"主席我想跟您確認一下因為畢竟您也是國民黨的委員我想確認的是今天國民黨的也就是徐宇珍委員領銜其實也有主席嘛領銜提出的修正動議這個版本因為剛剛你在回答李昆城委員的時候你好像是說56裡面的人口在125萬那邊會拿掉是不是那整段拿掉"},{"start":5202.389,"end":5213.442,"text":"所以我想確認一下所以國民黨委員今天提出修正條文的版本如果通過的話也就是說你們提案的真正的意旨你們的本意就是"},{"start":5214.878,"end":5238.89,"text":"直轄市就是三個副市長其他縣市就是兩個副縣長不分任何大小不分人口不分面積沒有任何指標就是反正直轄市就是三個縣市就是兩個也沒有說如果我超過哪一個指標之後我就可以得增什麼之類的確定嗎對 目前的方向是這樣來說"},{"start":5240.03,"end":5254.069,"text":"不曉得你們的理由是什麼,也可以讓我們參考一下嗎?就是台灣現實都變大,是這個意思嗎?還是怎麼樣?我們也可以參考一下嘛我們先請徐議貞委員,然後李坤貞委員,然後陳少平委員,好不好?"},{"start":5254.795,"end":5273.826,"text":"我想剛剛巧惠委員提到的這個部分就是說縣市沒有依人口數來去決定他的縣市長副市長或副縣長其實這個我覺得也很好來說明就是我們的縣市長有因為他的大小這個人口數薪水有所不同嗎"},{"start":5274.927,"end":5302.317,"text":"薪水應該都一樣吧對啊 代表說他們其實要負責的事權跟他們做的責任跟他們需要負擔的所有的業務其實是一樣的所以縣市長的薪水才會是一樣嘛所以為什麼到這個地方的時候又這樣不行了所以我覺得針對這個部分呢我們應該來去把全國統一的方式那我們就希望是直轄市的部分就是三個這個副市長那當然大家現在一直在講說台北市因為為了台北市休台北市本來就三個副市長啦"},{"start":5304.318,"end":5328.92,"text":"不是嗎所以再來就是說因為縣市的部分希望剛剛美惠委員也特別提到我們嘉義市比較小難道就沒有嗎有就嘉義市也會多一個副市長我們覺得應該是全國一致這樣比較公平謝謝好 謝謝主席委員之間當然沒有什麼辯論不過因為剛剛宇甄委員在說徐委員說的是說人口不是重點所有縣市應該齊平可是今天修正動議的說明欄全部都在講人口"},{"start":5330.307,"end":5349.665,"text":"全部都在講人口啊所以我們才會有這個問題跟人口有關的容我補充說明你知道嗎不好意思喔我等我一下好不好人口的部分是這樣啦就大家其實共同要面對一件事情嘛就是說台灣現在少子女化的狀況是不可逆嘛你如果說過去用人口會準則那接下來幾年的時候你可能會遇到"},{"start":5350.666,"end":5379.151,"text":"是地方在財化法修正之後市權增加業務增加但是因為人口減少然後反而副市長要減少的一個狀況是不是會有這樣子的一個問題呢那雖然說人口減少確實是一個事實如果堅持要以人口為比照標準那也是一套標準沒有錯但是當人口超高齡化然後今年勞動力不足的時候它難道不是另外一種治理的困難嗎對不對所以我覺得我覺得這就大家意見不一樣了但我們就各自發表留下紀錄就好我也想做一個補充說明"},{"start":5379.531,"end":5394.657,"text":"我的意見要把它表出來因為我們是經過這樣對話我的意見是說如果你今天國民黨真的要提出這種版本我還不如覺得你原來的就是有加上那個但說後面有再加上人口指標可以增減的還比較有道理一點你增加"},{"start":5396.217,"end":5416.91,"text":"增加副縣長副市長是一件事情但得條挪這是另外一件事情那我是覺得原來之前的版本有條挪的還反而比較好一點謝謝我們還是讓它順序好不好坤城委員 超平委員然後剛剛鴻路委員嘛 好不好好 然後柏毅委員我再提一下這個第55條55條的提案的說明裡面根本沒有提到這個財化法然後講到財化法我真的是很鬼八道會因為我是財政委員會的人當初財化法是怎麼出去的"},{"start":5425.635,"end":5454.905,"text":"一分鐘就出去耶我們就說你程旭智你不要送出去我們是不是先討論一下說財務法如果送出去之前各個縣市政府的這個事權要怎麼去做處理嘛完全沒有討論啊所以你就是一分鐘之後就把財務法送出去了沒有討論說各縣市政府的事權如何因為你財務法做調整那你現在丟出來這個版本就說因為我們這個財務法通過了所以我們要增加副市長這沒有道理嘛說不通嘛因為剛開始在我們財政委員會討論的時候根本就沒有提到說財務法通過之後"},{"start":5455.305,"end":5480.88,"text":"然後各個地方政府那他們的這個市權要怎麼做調整完全沒有嘛更換說雲南裡面也沒有嘛所以我是覺得說不要用這個採訪法來包裝就是說這個台北市不管是蔣灣或是李四川的這個問題那如果說要渡這個幼幼之口我覺得啦那就是把這個時間調到這個明年12月25號之後跟著新的這個市長一起商量我覺得爭議就會比較小一點啦好 謝謝坤城委員我們請陳昭明委員"},{"start":5482.671,"end":5500.818,"text":"剛剛一聽,我覺得很意外,我們城鄉差距太大,六都邊緣的警察分級長,那官選比我們非六都最主要的警察級官選還要大,難怪大家都往那邊在升。"},{"start":5501.878,"end":5518.916,"text":"這第一點不公平現在部長也在這邊仔細聽啦我以前提這個問題警政使說你不要提我們人要升官那為了警政和解的關係好像聽你的但是始終非常不公平我先點出這一點第二點"},{"start":5521.51,"end":5544.022,"text":"剛剛我又聽到六都都有兩個副秘書長但是我聽部長又跟我講了一句話如果我們會六都多了一個副秘書長參議就會被取消到我不知道這對你會帶來你也了解參議的作用那多一個副秘書長其實人才最重要"},{"start":5545.287,"end":5565.794,"text":"薪水不是最重要薪水是給大家不是他講的那個薪資的出息的時候我們是要選做能力的人啊你自己說六都就有兩個副秘書長那我們會六都的宣誓更可憐喔我們角色大家都一樣所以多一個副秘書長是"},{"start":5567.976,"end":5579.57,"text":"應該要予以同意啦,不是人口選舉多就全部往那邊跑啦我希望大家要體諒這點,各位也希望了解這點城鄉的差距不然會越來越大"},{"start":5584.281,"end":5587.502,"text":"國民黨今天的修正動議我要講難聽一點真的是"},{"start":5606.84,"end":5610.227,"text":"遮遮掩掩最後一段就要115年11月1號實施啦你知道嗎"},{"start":5617.625,"end":5640.858,"text":"台北市現在人口低於250萬內政部也不會要求說台北市你今天三個副市長要改成兩個副市長啊到明年的1月1號台北市人口還是少於250萬的話請問內政部會要求台北市三個副市長改成兩個副市長嗎也是不會啊除非有人辭職嘛"},{"start":5641.678,"end":5662.331,"text":"除非有人辭職你才不能補嘛所以你又把這個補進來又把這個條文要寫上來的意思是要說什麼是要說就是為了蔣萬安我們還是表達我們不要因人設事來討論當然後面還有這個縣市的不分人口要增加成兩個副縣長這個我覺得這個更要討論啦謝謝"},{"start":5673.044,"end":5691.144,"text":"我還是要提醒各位委員一下我們再修一個法現在剛剛大家講的理由什麼的其實一個法要長久去運作我們不是說現在的事情怎麼樣怎麼樣這個法一修可能你要有20年30年50年去試用的"},{"start":5693.246,"end":5720.425,"text":"那你不可能今年修了然後說隔了一兩年又來改所以我還是覺得就是說還是要有一個標準啦一個面積或是一個人口啦以前的舊有的條文它就是以人口而且人口其實是全世界大部分設置副首長的一個最基本的一個標準我覺得這個標準要在啦還要提醒大家不然"},{"start":5721.446,"end":5737.881,"text":"我必須在這邊講身為新北市的立法委員這個如果照你們的條文通過哇 你是欺負我們新北市啊必須要 你會要承擔這個後果喔你會欺負我們新北市喔因為你們有一個標準在"},{"start":5739.499,"end":5756.186,"text":"你說有像以前舊法250萬以上會可以偵測或什麼的其實全世界你去看全世界的這個復首的這個條文大概都有這些規定大概都有你去看東京都1000多萬人口那他就沒個標準嗎如果"},{"start":5758.117,"end":5784.248,"text":"以我們現在這樣子來講五萬的五萬以下的也是兩個兩百五十萬三百萬也是兩個我記得彰化也是快一百多萬嘛他也是兩個未來也是兩個不是啦彰化你要通過他也是兩個啊那你人很少的也是兩個啊"},{"start":5785.992,"end":5810.1,"text":"我覺得這點要思考喔 對不對那個一個和尚挑水喝 三個和尚沒水喝那你一直設更多 當然也是啊照這樣來講好像是可以做得很好啊可是真的是這樣嗎我再強調一次 很多的不是人多就一定可以辦得好事情但我覺得那個標準我們一定要在啦"},{"start":5810.765,"end":5833.459,"text":"不要以後人家來看我們修法來罵我們這一屆的內政委員說你一點標準都沒有然後就這樣我擔心的只有這個我常說我們的立法要讓人家可以檢視所以我覺得大家再思考一下我覺得還有時間可以討論大家再思考一下"},{"start":5834.46,"end":5860.086,"text":"好 謝謝我看大家發言都差不多然後顯然你要在今天達成共識我感覺是蠻困難的啦那我們還有委員要發言嗎還是我們往下走往下走好了好不好我是建議55 56啦我們就是保留啦就送政黨協商來處理啦好不好這樣子我們也今天也早一點可以把其他的條件因為其他的條件其實進度是比較好比較有機會在委員會討論的時候可以達成共識我爭取一下大家意見可以嗎"},{"start":5861.192,"end":5883.803,"text":"好那我們這兩條我們就保留修正東西的部分可以嗎我們也要版本做精簡嘛那剛剛我覺得很多委員提議都非常好那其實我還是蠻希望如果它可以變成具體版譬如說你們如果很堅持要用人口為標準那怎麼樣算出有一套好的標準也可以在協商的過程中變成版本提進來大家來做討論我想這也都是可以解決事情的方法好不好那我們就"},{"start":5885.845,"end":5897.595,"text":"55條的部分就把本席的修正動議 56條的部分就是本席跟陳昌明委員的修正動議 我們就送政黨協商那61條的部分61條 好 現在有修正動議 沒關係 本來我們應該是不處理但我講嘛 我說盡量都保持開放那今天有"},{"start":5911.826,"end":5919.824,"text":"這個張宏祿委員提修正動議這邊請宏祿委員先做一下說明好不好好 可以 李昆城委員"},{"start":5922.4,"end":5950.029,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝這個紅樓召委這個我因為我本來的我提案是在第78條那第78條就是說那後來我有跟這個內政部討論過因為我的這個是涉及到說風景的問題就是說你這個陰暗停止的話要不要給薪水然後這個內政部是建議說然後再修正61條那61條是有關於這個風景這部分如果是放在這邊的話這個體力上會更好那所以我就接受這個內政部的這個建議所以我把我的這個"},{"start":5951.169,"end":5964.709,"text":"本來78條的這一個條文修正的條文我把它改成第61條的這個修正動議放在這邊那一樣內容是一樣就是說你如果是違反這個公職人員選報法"},{"start":5968.454,"end":5991.329,"text":"117條第一項的規定停職的期間呢不得發給新級然後呢如果按照這個相關規定的復職之後呢予以補發然後跟我在這個78條的這個修正內容其實是大致是相同的只是說按照這個體力上我把它放在61條我關於這個鳳級的部分那這個一樣就是說如果陰暗這個一審這個陰暗停職的話我們就不發給鳳級然後復職之後再補發那以上說明好謝謝李崑禎委員的說明"},{"start":5997.574,"end":5999.879,"text":"我們各位有想法嗎?我先問一下"},{"start":6002.745,"end":6028.475,"text":"我有一個小問題啦我基本上方向我是贊成的但因為我們現在講的是說他如果按規定復職之後予以補發那很多時候因為是官司嘛打官司嘛打官司因為有狀況所以停職然後會不會啦就是說這個官司打完之後他的任期其實已經認滿了那如果是這樣子的一個情況之下的話要怎麼辦所以我們是不是請部會做一下說明我剛剛的問題有聽懂嗎有討論過好那請做一下說明謝謝"},{"start":6033.188,"end":6062.222,"text":"跟各位人報告如果是在官司是在他任期之後的話就沒有付值的問題因為他無職可復所以就沒有所謂這個不發的問題就說依照這條文是付值但是他沒有付值要要付值的情況他如果已經過了就無職可復了所以依照依照對依照這條文就是不發了"},{"start":6063.346,"end":6076.619,"text":"對 可是如果他最後 他是在任期中被我的意思就是說 他在任期中捲入了官司嘛但如果官司 因為有官司所以他停職嘛或是什麼 可是如果官司最後證明他是清白的話那這樣不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":6078.237,"end":6105.313,"text":"因為他已經過了他的任期已經無職可復如果依照這條文是說他任期之內副職的話當然可以補發但是已經過他任期的時候他依照這他就沒有副職的問題我大概了解你的意思也就是說因為他停職嘛所以他沒有工作當然就沒有薪水的問題好那如果是停職副職的部分比如在任期內任期內對任期內的話依規定是可以這個補發的對啊可是問題是這樣他如果比如說"},{"start":6106.033,"end":6122.778,"text":"在第一年然後他捲入了官司然後被停職停職了兩年好了然後在第四年的時候他復職對不對那前兩年呢是給他還是不給他是是是要給對要補跑可是如果你照這樣的邏輯的話他如果前三年後來都被停職但是到第五年也就是他卸任之後才復職"},{"start":6123.958,"end":6149.617,"text":"你的邏輯不就不一致了嗎?卸任之後他就沒有...我的意思是說他沒有職可以...因為你如果講說他沒有職可以付所以他因為他停職所以沒有工作沒有工作不給他薪水所以不允許補發嘛對不對你的意思是這樣可是你如果任期中他就停職了這兩年他也是沒有在工作嘛因為是停職嘛可是因為他剛好是在任期結束前法律就還他清白你就付職然後你前兩年還可以補發那不會變成說有些人可以補有些人不能補這樣不一致的狀況嗎?我今天想問的是這個"},{"start":6151.175,"end":6171.434,"text":"是不是我們討論一下依照這個條文基本上是有復職的情況之下如果他已經卸任了其實他那個已經無職可復了啦依照這條文可是對於如果無罪被判定無罪的話那他又不能復他當然已經過那個復職的期限然後又不能補發這樣對他來說也不公平啊我們指的是無罪的一個狀況啊"},{"start":6175.805,"end":6203.403,"text":"沒關係我們討論一下好不好請吳世偉我想問一下因為這也是一個值得討論的問題就是說他還他清白以後即便他已經不在那個位置上但是那我想一下就過去有沒有因為這是地方制度法處理的是首長地方首長過去有沒有對於譬如說縣市立委有沒有因為也是類似什麼樣涉案的狀況然後"},{"start":6205.731,"end":6216.758,"text":"沒有領薪水然後最後官司平反了然後他已經卸了立委的身份有沒有其他的類別的公職人員可以參照"},{"start":6219.315,"end":6245.081,"text":"有沒有任何可以參照的如果沒有的話有可以參照當然要看一下過去的法律的參照的狀況那如果沒有的話這個問題我們是可以好好來想一下最後恢復他的清白了對啊 因為最後恢復清白我覺得就是標準要一致不能跟任期有交錯的問題因為有的官司有時候拖得比較久所以這個可能"},{"start":6248.464,"end":6255.253,"text":"剛剛吳委員有提到的部分民意代表的部分大概就沒有所謂的副職的問題他就是沒有就沒有了"},{"start":6262.275,"end":6283.849,"text":"剛剛我們民政司長的解釋的部分是按照人事行政總署的函式來辦理的所以是不是請人事行政總署來解釋一下有關於這個地方首長如果有這個副職之後還在任期內一定補發但是過了任期的時候就不補發這個部分是不是可以請他來做一下說明好嗎"},{"start":6286.943,"end":6289.045,"text":"好 魯夫先生總副 麻煩謝謝"},{"start":6303.192,"end":6325.663,"text":"委員會各位先生大家好有關那個地方民選首長的部分他那個停職期間他目前的一規定是參照那個公務人員的規定他目前是發給半奉的那公務員規定是因為說他有復職之後他可以補發半奉那目前民選地方首長部分如同剛剛內政部的說法就是說目前是無職可復的目前在我們"},{"start":6326.443,"end":6350.609,"text":"在現行的規範中我們一般就參照全區部跟內政部的一個處理方式去做說明那目前行政院目前針對停職期間是有停發半奉的不過你剛講的半奉我記得高雄安市長被停職我們內政部長是說連半奉都沒有喔對啊就是所以嘛是內政部有裁量的嘛對吧不是就是給半奉吧是沒有錯跟我們報告一下就是"},{"start":6357.534,"end":6357.915,"text":"這是包含"},{"start":6365.174,"end":6387.381,"text":"所以說現在的狀況按照剛剛的說明其實是政務選出來就民選首長啦其實按照有個規定是可以比照事務政務人員嘛就是說停職的時候領半封但有財長權我覺得這個彈性也未免太大了一點所以我還蠻認同這一條要法制化處理但是我覺得我們還是回到剛剛那個問題嘛就是說官司的長短不是一般人可以控制的嘛"},{"start":6388.123,"end":6415.698,"text":"但是我覺得最後的結果不管他是復職或者是任期過了標準要一致我們怎麼樣在立法基礎上去完成這件事情啊我請教一下大家的意見啊往這個方向去做再調整會不會完善一點這樣應該是如果最後是無罪我覺得應該都要補罰當然如果他有罪當然把他收到這個懲罰是應該但是如果是無罪的話卻因為有沒有在任期內復職而決定補不補罰其實這樣好像不符合這個相關的公平的條件"},{"start":6426.529,"end":6441.674,"text":"來 請張宏祿委員我覺得啦 其實這一條大家的方向都一樣啦我覺得請內政部你們看法條要怎麼修 如何補足這一塊我們再來就處理好不好"},{"start":6446.186,"end":6473.425,"text":"其實趙偉提出的這個問題按照邏輯來看的話其實應該就是說你只要是無罪薪水就是要給因為今天是說因為無職可賦所以不補方我覺得這邊可能看市民面身部這邊再做個修正如果方向我們方向都一致就是說因為你今天只有一審有罪被停職我們就是因為之前是有裁量的我們現在說不要裁量我們就法治的話我們就是都停薪"},{"start":6474.306,"end":6495.797,"text":"然後呢那如果說你這一個一旦司法還你清白的話那是不是薪水要補發那就是如果是在任的時候大家好像覺得比較沒什麼問題那現在就是說你已經卸任有時候官司如果拖了比較久你卸任了那要不要補發啦這個我是持開放啦那就看那個各委員的意見是怎麼樣然後內政部要怎麼做調整"},{"start":6496.417,"end":6520.963,"text":"好 謝謝昆城委員這樣子 我請教一下行政機關今天有沒有辦法有明確的條文如果有困難 那可能我們就要保留處理嘛好 我們請行政機關說明一下如果委員有共識說如果改判我覺得確定要補發的話是不是在李昆城委員的修正動力裡面的最後第二行"},{"start":6521.741,"end":6523.862,"text":"你這樣子寫我總覺得好像"},{"start":6548.14,"end":6561.148,"text":"我知道啦,所以我才是說你們不要臨時問,我覺得這樣感覺怪怪的你們應該要想一下,然後看怎樣再處理這個法令我覺得不能我們這樣隨便講兩句"},{"start":6566.416,"end":6583.836,"text":"因為我覺得這個問題很大 我覺得在這個時間共享這樣五六年 我們是不是沒理由因為我們要延長一下風溫我們一定要讓人穿白 但是真的我一個已經"},{"start":6585.778,"end":6609.091,"text":"聽...聽這啦 你還在那有的沒的想什麼啦不是 我覺得這一條好不容易大家都有共識了只是文字的修正 但你文字修正 我剛他這樣念我覺得怪怪的咧你們要學好對啊 我們先下面 下面一條然後他們先去有時間啊好 我們這一條暫時保留 謝謝"},{"start":6612.725,"end":6631.48,"text":"欸...78條剛剛我們理論者有意思應該是我改修61條嘛78我們就不處理了好不好好78條不如處理好83條之3上次我們講83條跟原住民有關的部分就是處理83條之7嘛對不對這個應該沒有錯吧那我們就直接進到83條之7我們其他就不處理可以嗎好那我們現在先進行83條之7的討論我們請高清委員"},{"start":6636.601,"end":6662.658,"text":"好 今天有再修正動議的部分大家參考一下手上的資料好 我們請委員做相關說明 以上好 高清素梅在這邊說明一下財政部按照上一次也就是5月12號的討論之後他們有提供非常正確的一個財政收據讓我知道然後我們來看一下83條之七直轄市設算補助給三地原住民區的財源"},{"start":6664.758,"end":6674.081,"text":"感謝財政部提供的補充資料但是呢我們看一下根據最新的更新新北市的烏來區的預算減少金額從6784萬更正為7268萬桃園復興區有減少將近3億縮小到1.38億台中的和平區減少的金額從2.59億修正為1.80億"},{"start":6695.25,"end":6702.639,"text":"這三個區大概都沒有什麼大的落差但是我們看一下高雄市的茂林區它的預算減少的金額從2456萬擴大為2.01億"},{"start":6712.625,"end":6728.71,"text":"令人非常震驚的是高雄市原住民的三個區這三個區也就是茂林區、桃園區、南下區這三個區他們現在的差額大概相近增加將近11億"},{"start":6730.35,"end":6757.205,"text":"我們可以看到這些數據的差異反映出高雄市政府對原住民的三個區公所明顯非常的忽視還有忽略令人難以接受的是高雄市政府竟然還公開的宣稱他們對這三個區的原住民區提供1.6億元的預算支持但是他們卻完全迴避了從原鄉"},{"start":6760.007,"end":6771.986,"text":"剝奪了將近11億元的事實我覺得這樣的行為不僅僅是對法律精神的踐踏更是對原住民族基本權益的漠視另外我們從稅入和稅出來看"},{"start":6774.85,"end":6793.693,"text":"新北市、桃園市、台中市的預算跟改制前相比已經差不多接近了,甚至有超越之勢可是高雄市的三個原住民區,不論是他的稅入還是稅出,遠遠低於改制前的情況"},{"start":6794.654,"end":6796.057,"text":"我認為這樣子的財政分配顯示高雄市政府在原住民三個區的資源分配上是非常嚴重的問題"},{"start":6806.007,"end":6825.238,"text":"我們設計這些制度的目的就是希望直轄市和山地區能夠進行充分的協調和合作來確保原住民地區能夠享有跟其他地域平等的發展機會原住民的基礎建設也好 教育也好 醫療也好"},{"start":6826.098,"end":6846.897,"text":"都大幅的削減這直接影響到了我們族人的基本生活權益我認為這樣的不公平的預算分配必須要立刻修正而對這些不公正的財政安排我們必須要在今天徹查還有修正來確保原住民區能夠獲得應該要有的資源跟發展的機會"},{"start":6850.58,"end":6865.588,"text":"我想這不僅僅是保護原住民的基本權益更是捍衛法律跟正義的責任我特別要講一下高雄市政府我們來看一下我們今天不管是不是修正動議的條文在原條文他就講了"},{"start":6869.95,"end":6881.976,"text":"三地原住民區在實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依照下列因素予以設算補助並且應該要維持改制前各該三地商統籌分配財源的水準我們可以看到開張民意的第一項就要求直轄市的政府"},{"start":6895.863,"end":6922.44,"text":"應該要維持改制前各個三地區的統籌分配財源的分配但是非常的遺憾高雄市政府完全無視於法律高雄市的議員也沒有非常的用功認真的來了解法條我們看到高雄市政府真的從99年到現在104年相比將近少了11億"},{"start":6924.461,"end":6931.824,"text":"這十一億恰恰反映在茂林區桃園區南下區的基礎建設我覺得這是非常不公平的所以我希望今天的在場委員們能夠依照我們今天的"},{"start":6942.328,"end":6963.664,"text":"本席今天的再修正动议这个部分也是跟财政部讨论好了财政部也跟新北市政府、台湾市政府、高雄市政府、台中市政府还有我们整个原乡的五个区这个资料都在这里都已经讨论过了所以呢"},{"start":6964.284,"end":6972.647,"text":"我今天再提的再修正動議版本是大家經過大家討論以後大家同意通過的以上謝謝好謝謝這內83條是7各位委員還有意見嗎"},{"start":6980.839,"end":7004.986,"text":"來 請盧憲宜委員然後待會吳立豪委員好 就是針對我們這六個區就是十一年來他們的額額預算大幅降低又不能舉債然後稅捐的營運又不能參與分配然後又沒有依照他的薪請的物價來調整所以他遠遠落後於當初改制前的水準所以我們按照他的修正原條五的修正就是說希望能夠改制"},{"start":7006.066,"end":7027.56,"text":"改之前各3D箱前三年的總預算說出平均數那後來看到這個修正動議我看到明天的版本是說要扣除現行中央或直轄市額外補助的平均數所以我想知道說你扣除了以後跟之前的那個"},{"start":7030.142,"end":7044.7,"text":"會增加多少還是只有增加一點點這樣的話修改這個法條有什麼具體的建議嗎因為這樣子的話看不出來它到底會不會真正的幫助我們現在六個直轄市的3D區所以以上"},{"start":7048.539,"end":7066.673,"text":"謝謝 請吳立浩委員好 謝謝主席關於地治法第83條之7那大家都很關心特別是原住民委員而且是關心很久了為什麼因為我們原住民鄉"},{"start":7068.354,"end":7095.993,"text":"跟著改制為直轄市之後變園區那他一度失去公法人地位引起嘩然終於謝謝之前的立委們在2014年把園區恢復了跟一般的園鄉一樣恢復他的公法人地位但是當時有一個嚴重的疏漏就是忘了修回財政自治"},{"start":7097.013,"end":7105.957,"text":"所以使得這11年就是所有的園區非常的辛苦那因為他們的稅客驟降為零就變成要依賴市政府的補助所以這個部分很高興今天我們終於能夠共同的來修正這一條"},{"start":7116.582,"end":7130.292,"text":"那第二個我要特別強調因為我去年在財政委員會有特別的請財政部要邀請各直轄市政府跟原住民區要來開會"},{"start":7131.733,"end":7150.304,"text":"那就是討論說我們要來怎麼修那所以呢我特別把這項意見就是把改字前各3D箱統籌分配的裁員水準喔把它寫進到我們第83條之7的第一項就是主文裡面那因為"},{"start":7152.985,"end":7172.195,"text":"這個會變成是固定不會變動的金額那也是我們做財政分配要遵守的前提所以我特別把它放在主文就是增加說並不得低於直轄市改制前各該山地鄉前三年度總預算稅出平均數"},{"start":7173.115,"end":7200.655,"text":"扣除中央或直轄市額外補助之平均數因為必須要把補助款要把它分別要拿掉要這樣子算那它的這個水準才不會喪失那所以特別做這樣的一個說明那至於後面就是確立這個原則放在主文那就是第一條就是自治事項然後呢中央統"},{"start":7201.696,"end":7225.855,"text":"投分配稅款然后再放其他因素所以在中央统筹分配税款就是写说直辖市的中央统筹分配税款实际分配金额高于通知分配数直辖市应于次一年度按其增加比例增加对该山地原住民区之补助做以上的说明谢谢"},{"start":7231.837,"end":7253.115,"text":"好這個文字看了大家頭腦都冒煙了這個我的了解沒有錯的話其實不管是高金委員的再修正動議或民進黨吳立華委員這邊修正動議其實大概概念其實還蠻其實是一樣的對不對概念是差不多啦但是呢招我要補充的是我的再修正動議是財政部已經是都討論過的了"},{"start":7254.736,"end":7259.301,"text":"就是按照我的這個再修正動議版本而且呢他也跟這個各縣市政府、直轄市政府還有我們區公所的代表這個資料就在我這裡都已經談好了所以呢其實吳立華委員的版本也差不多了而且他是今天提出來的嘛那我的再修正動議是在這個12號的時候已經提了跟他修正動議版本"},{"start":7277.558,"end":7284.849,"text":"所以我覺得大家對原住民的關心都是一樣的大家就是希望能夠來解決整個直轄市五個原住民區另外我要談的就是說其實我一直在強調的83條之七在103年的時候"},{"start":7294.222,"end":7314.739,"text":"我就是因為看到這樣子的狀況所以我們在第83條之一的第一項我們就要求地方政府必須要維持改制前各該三地統籌分配財源的水準加了這一句 可是待會財政單位順便解釋一下我們今天"},{"start":7318.422,"end":7346.79,"text":"不守法的是高雄市政府欺負三個人鄉的是高雄市政府我今天提了這個在修正動議版本我原本是在第四項裡面我希望我希望中央財政部財主單位你們能夠有所依據要求地方政府必須依法辦理那你們說這個文字不能夠放在裡面請問你有什麼方法兩件事情請您回答一下謝謝"},{"start":7348.582,"end":7349.022,"text":"主席 各位委員"},{"start":7367.469,"end":7378.568,"text":"我想今天在座的原住原民區的委員對這個原民區的財源都相當的關注那相當關注這個我們可以理解那"},{"start":7380.819,"end":7401.112,"text":"上一次會議主席有做一個決議要我們財政部邀集相關的機關再來研商我們邀集內政部 原民會 還有處級總署還有四個直轄市 還有六個原民區的公所來開會討論之後 大家獲置共識"},{"start":7409.677,"end":7422.369,"text":"那基本上就是大概跟高金委員剛才所提到的在修正動議的文字是一樣的那當然這是第一點報告那第二點就是關於這個吳委員提的這個條文"},{"start":7433.118,"end":7450.86,"text":"他會涉及到因為他把那個考量的因素把他直接放到序文裡面去就會涉及到這個各地方地方政府的裁員的分配的問題可能還要再協商還要再協商因為因為"},{"start":7452.148,"end":7476.437,"text":"就是因為他是放在序文裡面就表示說他一定要增加那我們是放在後面是當作考量的因素我知道那個市長你沒有回答我的問題我是說一百零三年的時候第八十三條之七你看到沒有第一項三地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依照下列因素予以設算補助並"},{"start":7478.558,"end":7493.028,"text":"應該維持改制前各該三地鄉統籌分配財源水準就已經講得很清楚了可是呢我們看一下為什麼今天我們還要在這裡跟你談這件事情就是高雄市政府短編了11億"},{"start":7495.209,"end":7500.113,"text":"他跟99年度跟104年我告訴你一下茂林區從2億9千6百73萬2千元減少到2億1千189萬他減少了9千多萬高雄市桃園區從原本的5億9千然後直到1億減少了4億耶"},{"start":7516.684,"end":7517.745,"text":"然後那麽下呢 他本來是5億7千多的然後呢 104年只給他1億147萬 減少了4億所以整個高雄市政府已經減少了將近11億呀"},{"start":7532.242,"end":7550.058,"text":"市長我現在要問的是我們今天提的這個再修正動議如果高雄市政府依然不離產我們能有什麼辦法跟委員報告我先在這邊跟各位委員報告兩個數字"},{"start":7551.994,"end":7555.158,"text":"民國98年 我為什麼講98年 因為99年剛好有八八風災所以我們如果是從99年跟114年跟今年來比較的話"},{"start":7570.217,"end":7596.729,"text":"那當然今年當然就是相對來講就是相對來講可能就比99年要低因為那一點有特殊的因素都是因素但是如果我們跟98年來看的話幾乎幾乎每一個直轄市都是增加的都是增加這是第一點報告那第二點第二點就是有關這個100就是剛才提到就是說為什麼那個"},{"start":7600.42,"end":7628.181,"text":"剛才提到等一下我請署長來說明這個數字來請署長來說明這個數字來市長我們節省時間麻煩你回答我的問題精簡的告訴我說如果高雄市政府不要忘了現在財化法也通過了高雄市政府也增加了預算如果他們未來還是不依法來把我們的錢補足的話你有什麼方法"},{"start":7628.901,"end":7652.023,"text":"如果你可以講出有什麼方法的話這個83條之7的第4項我就可以按照你們的這個要求然後由直轄市然後不需要你們中央財政部來介入請你告訴我有什麼方法其實這個還是要經過因為這個是地方自治的問題"},{"start":7652.563,"end":7678.514,"text":"我了解我們立法委員對他沒辦法啊那我們高雄市議員又沒有那麼強啊所以你的意思是說我要把這些告訴我們所有的南麻夏的鄉親嗎讓我們南麻夏這個高雄三區的鄉親來跟高雄市政府要嗎其實那一天我那個三個原民區高雄三個原民區來他們對這個修正條文他們是贊同的你迴避了我的問題沒關係啦謝謝"},{"start":7682.518,"end":7687.876,"text":"他們還是去協商啦好不好好 謝謝我們還是回到條文本身來討論好不好好 吳立豪委員"},{"start":7689.175,"end":7715.003,"text":"對 因為我剛剛聽了這樣的回應之後我其實是還是要堅持一下因為上次在才化法的時候其實我們也是要修啦但是就被丟包那沒有關係這一次在帝制法我是覺得說我們要再謹慎堅持一點因為其實當年修法的時候就是不夠謹慎"},{"start":7716.483,"end":7743.915,"text":"才會修出說什麼要用前三年改制前三年的平均那我覺得財化法那邊也有疏漏讓稅客突然驟降為零然後什麼前三年的平均又弄得我們整個每一年的經費增加結果永遠停留在改制前三年所以這個地方我還是要再強調一次剛才您自己也有說就是把這個不會變動的"},{"start":7745.916,"end":7767.513,"text":"把它放在主文那我們要堅持的就是這個我們不要放在下面所以這個部分我還是要堅持就是說希望把剛才我提到的不得低於直轄市改制前各該三地鄉前三年總預算稅出平均數要扣除中央或直轄市額外補助的平均數"},{"start":7768.855,"end":7779.211,"text":"我是希望說因為這是會固定不變而且是前提才會有後面的這個部分所以我是堅持說您剛剛也承認了我們就是要爭取這個謝謝"},{"start":7785.854,"end":7797.74,"text":"其實剛吳立懷委員講的第二項大家看一下我的再修正動議版本其實有寫啦就是直轄市改制前各該三地向前三年度所以是一樣的"},{"start":7799.501,"end":7818.336,"text":"總預算稅出平均數 靠除上級政府額外補助的平均數及改制後原個該三地鄉市權 宜由直轄市辦理之經費所以其實文字是一樣的所以我覺得沒有什麼好爭執的啦"},{"start":7819.517,"end":7820.798,"text":"主席不好意思因為這個"},{"start":7843.038,"end":7863.103,"text":"對 一樣 但是剛才我們聽得很清楚效果不一樣而且重點是體力 體力也不一樣這樣子血放在哪裡效果不一樣 體力也不一樣我們既然要修了不要再像過去一樣就是沒有把它修好 修完整然後讓大家痛苦十幾年謝謝"},{"start":7864.963,"end":7873.314,"text":"好 這樣子好了我們開會開到現在也一段時間我們休息五分鐘好 大家上個廁所 緩一緩然後大家協商一下看怎麼處理這件事好不好現在休息"},{"start":7881.905,"end":7907.585,"text":"財政來啦 財政來啦你去說明啦趕快啊 要找機會啊不是都講好了嗎財政市長啊市長 你是在那說明一下對啊對啊對啊 為什麼不趕快溝通好還是可以的 還是可以的"},{"start":7914.39,"end":7914.41,"text":"哦"},{"start":7920.86,"end":7937.153,"text":"他這樣...最近...我再給他講一下啦好啦,我聽一下,他如果...我來...但是我覺得希望不要...定性規定的話,他們就...就不能有...就沒辦法有一個共識可是...但你們先是政府就不願意啊"},{"start":7954.09,"end":7954.67,"text":"稍微"},{"start":7975.043,"end":7993.151,"text":"你不能地方政府的意見我們就苦了十幾年你用地方政府有意見對"},{"start":8005.21,"end":8025.443,"text":"他開了三次會喔我知道你先用說要給地方政府一個談判好啦,那剛剛你們兩個我們都做一期完結大家的完結完結都沒開,都說完沒開但是剛才林姓林口都已經沒有要改就一直改跑沒有這樣的對,沒怪"},{"start":8028.925,"end":8040.674,"text":"財政部在幹嘛呢財政部在幹嘛呢財政部在幹嘛呢財政部在幹嘛呢財政部在幹嘛呢財政部在幹嘛呢"},{"start":8059.329,"end":8061.013,"text":"我跟您商量一下"},{"start":8068.806,"end":8078.775,"text":"這個也是財政部去年給我的意見啊我們聽說他應該要讓財政部成立他如果沒有幫財政部成立他會變成實習家學者 因為不安心"},{"start":8089.304,"end":8103.875,"text":"那個差異是在這邊剛剛正式也講了啊放在這邊是固定的放在這邊只想是還有韓系的你不能這樣你不能這樣他說好不容易卸掉出來這樣就沒辦法啦"},{"start":8117.651,"end":8128.8,"text":"你們原住民已經簽了這樣有沒有60分有啦50分啦就是有這些原民居民才會簽但是我不理解為什麼大家要將就50分的為什麼要這樣大家已經擋過了為什麼這個就這樣誒他們保護住民"},{"start":8145.253,"end":8155.463,"text":"阿如果我們原民立委都同意阿每次都是 阿都是修的一半一半 哪有這樣的阿你 大家 看新歌 看文件的 社長立委 原住民的"},{"start":8169.175,"end":8195.127,"text":"你可能沒有看到數據,我給你看一下數據沒有,我在城鎮委員會已經算過很多遍了沒有沒有,他們最新給我的攤看一下以前三個區其實都差不多啦我只是雙雄啦他們現在說服我是希望退而求其次但是我不懂,我不是啦,我們沒有沒有啊,我們見鬼啊沒有啊,沒有啊,沒有差別啊"},{"start":8197.829,"end":8208.877,"text":"但是這樣沒有解決問題啦你再想起來了不是不是啦對啊我的意思是說不是高經緯不是啦這個差別是在你放在這邊它是固定的"},{"start":8226.43,"end":8227.511,"text":"所以你放在這邊?"},{"start":8247.259,"end":8275.419,"text":"她還是有彈性 她不見得要照顧你沒有 你看沒有沒有沒有 你看第一項 妳看第一項那沒有關係那我就在那邊宣布如果大家希望50分 那我就50分沒有50分我們沒有50分我們掌聲都自己我們尊重我們尊重好啦好啦 效果不一樣好 我們不要做50分的我們要做60分的不要 我要120"},{"start":8276.56,"end":8305.441,"text":"喔!對,要做一百歲你那麼多條保留又不差這一條叫他再去你就叫他再去就保留啦沒關西啦,沒關西啦保留啦保留啦就保留沒關西啦要修就一次到位啊那就保留好不好好啦,這樣就保留啦OK吧"},{"start":8306.402,"end":8307.906,"text":"拜托了 拜保留了"},{"start":8308.493,"end":8336.312,"text":"現在最大的問題就是只有高雄啊三個區都沒有問題啊為什麼要按...因為為了高雄市來保留呢?不要啦,你會...沒有,我不是為了高雄市保留我是說說不合適大家保留跟協商好因為修法,不要...不管是帶一個族群都一樣啦我們要修好"},{"start":8338.274,"end":8364.253,"text":"本來政府已經跟縣市政府已經跟縣市政府說好了已經跟我們區公所的代表都說好了不要這樣啦今天好不容易都已經這樣子了不要這樣啦,我們很鐵定的啦我們一天台灣人一天都被弱勢了好啦好啦,早晚你去跟他講一下啦"},{"start":8366.405,"end":8379.196,"text":"對啊 大家都知道 你們都很照顧我們人民後來我們要照顧台灣的時候 一定要照顧我們地方政府都投避了 地方政府都投避了"},{"start":8388.226,"end":8391.808,"text":"我們還有別條保留嗎沒有 有啦 有這條啦因為這個效果只有50分"},{"start":8414.923,"end":8427.832,"text":"我跟你說 區政府我講實在 我很認真你不要說五十萬 五十萬這樣我心肝很緊張區公所都同意縣市區長 城下市政府都派員了怎麼可能會說一半呢沒有五十分的問題沒有啦 沒有啦"},{"start":8444.704,"end":8444.904,"text":"主席"},{"start":8463.249,"end":8466.671,"text":"我們是同事 我們是委員 我們一直尊重"},{"start":8487.702,"end":8487.722,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":8499.852,"end":8503.255,"text":"這間餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。"},{"start":8526.502,"end":8531.186,"text":"有啊,剛剛有一個是都簽名的,所以不是公司簽名的這是陸續學校的"},{"start":8558.035,"end":8571.688,"text":"所以我們才說,如果現在有問題,我們就通告高天堡,我們就通告高天堡,我們就通告高天堡,我們就通告高天堡,我們就通告高天堡,我們就通告"},{"start":8591.406,"end":8592.727,"text":"因為你的狀況你也要"},{"start":8607.372,"end":8628.915,"text":"如果在這邊講這件事,我們是不可能的,我們應該想做一件很大的事,所以你現在亂了很多事情,你亂了很多寶石,很多貨品,那就是你等一下拿來做貨品,你要說出來說,好啦,他們在裡面都接受啦,這個東西你要做貨品,所以你自己在那邊做貨品,你自己要做貨品"},{"start":8629.876,"end":8630.356,"text":"好啦當然啦"},{"start":8662.11,"end":8662.892,"text":"好好 沒關係好"},{"start":8675.796,"end":8676.116,"text":"他就還沒講好啊"},{"start":8700.893,"end":8704.914,"text":"我們都尊重喔,精華補貼我們也尊重喔我以前不怕,以前也..."},{"start":8728.866,"end":8729.606,"text":"好啦好啦謝謝"},{"start":8762.642,"end":8782.633,"text":"好 報告聯席委員會我們繼續開會進行協商的這個流程這個有關83條之7我們剛剛這個各處協調之後我還是先說明一下就是說其實上一次在我們內政委員會開會的時候我們高經委員就很清楚嘛他來這邊還有我們盧憲宜委員都在現場"},{"start":8783.573,"end":8798.281,"text":"那其實那天我們各位內政委員很多司法委員其實也都在現場其實當天就有做出明確的結論就是希望財政部跟相關的主管機關跟我們的原住民及委員做一下清楚的溝通跟說明那這件事基本上也做到了所以有今天的再修正動議"},{"start":8799.221,"end":8823.036,"text":"那五六號委員今天來那有些人動議我們是非常希望非常希望因為這個案如果法條上行政機關已經同意那基本上在執行上其實是比較沒有問題的那是不是委員願意成全一下那我們就以委員會審議通過版本再用我們就以委員會通過審議版本大家一起簽字這樣是不是大家都大家的都有照顧到法條也可以處理好我們是不是請五六號委員"},{"start":8823.896,"end":8843.232,"text":"謝謝主席我很高興今天能夠修到這一條原本我也是在其他的法案跟其他的條文裡面我也有去做處理今天能夠在這邊處理獲得大家一致的意見我也尊重財政部的意見只是說因為我還是有一些些"},{"start":8844.373,"end":8867.458,"text":"第一個就是看到有一些條文也是有被保留那第二個因為我還是想要跟財政部做一些些的確認就是關於體力跟效果的部分那大致上我是沒有意見我會尊重財政部但是既然今天也有其他的條文保留是不是再給我一些空間那請財政部可以跟我來做說明謝謝"},{"start":8870.223,"end":8876.568,"text":"好 不會因為我們這個保留與否就跟大家報告一下嘛我們先請高興委員發言既然剛剛吳委員這樣子說其實呢我還是要再講一遍啦就是我手上現在財政部給我的資料我們可以看到直轄市升格了之後呢我們原鄉有五個鄉變成五個區"},{"start":8890.558,"end":8911.397,"text":"新北市政府桃園市政府台中市政府對於烏來區復興區和平區他們的預算沒有減少多少甚至於還有增加的那麼如果我們今天呢按照現行的條文其實這三個直轄市都沒問題"},{"start":8913.68,"end":8939.139,"text":"那我們現在真正拿到的這個數據是茂林區跟桃園區跟喇嘛下區是減少了11億所以我們今天如果這個法條出去的話高雄市政府可以依照維持改制前各干三地相同從分配財源的水準這幾個區馬上就可以回到它以前的部分"},{"start":8940.08,"end":8942.882,"text":"那為什麼我們大家不再這樣子趕快來討論這三個區讓他把這個11億趕快找回來而至於吳麗華所想要的那個要增加的部分您可以在財政委員會裡面去提"},{"start":8956.653,"end":8980.431,"text":"那地治法裡面其實講得很清楚所以如果吳麗華您可以幫個忙的話我們幫三個桃園高雄市的三個區趕快先找回這十一億來然後讓大家可以先行上路這一次的地治法我們已經討論了那麼久了我希望呢 第八十"},{"start":8981.352,"end":9008.152,"text":"三條之七今天可以在內政委員會跟司法委員會的委員支持之下讓他順利的通過當然啦要保留我也沒有多大的意見啦但是我只是覺得保留下去很可惜好嗎 以上謝謝好我還是先問一下我們內政委員的意見啦因為總之民進黨內政委員會委員有想法嗎"},{"start":9010.171,"end":9029.596,"text":"好啦 保留好啦 那就一分鐘我跟那個盧秀英委員還有幾個原住民立法委員我們是希望今天通過嘛我們留下紀錄好不好而且 而且各縣市政府的代表直轄市政府的代表還有區公所的代表也都同意的好 謝謝謝謝主席我講一分鐘就好"},{"start":9032.697,"end":9046.156,"text":"叔叔我還是要講一最主要的原因是因為今天也有別的條文保留所以希望留一個空間第二我一定要講我就是高雄市茂林區的區民那是我的娘家所以"},{"start":9048.078,"end":9068.844,"text":"我想要為這一次好不容易11年後可以來處理這個法條爭取最大利益空間所以再給我一點點時間請財政部來跟我報告但是我對於大家今天能夠來修訂83條之七我作為一個原住民茂林區的居民我感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":9069.764,"end":9092.626,"text":"好 謝謝那我們這條我們就保留送這兩協商好不好好 那個回頭處理一下61條剛剛在協商原住民法案的同時文字的版本出現大家看一下這條有機會啦就是我覺得邏輯上大家要統一啦就是說如果法院還他清白不管在什麼時候就都可以補發那在文字上面我念一下"},{"start":9093.564,"end":9114.057,"text":"因為前面照這個李昆城委員的修正動議嘛然後補一段於其任期屆滿後經法院判決無罪確定或因犯罪嫌疑不足經檢查官不起訴處分確定者一同這樣子就不管是在任期前或者是任期後法院還這個人清白都有普發的一個機制大家標準是一致的請問這樣的文字委員會有沒有意見來"},{"start":9122.135,"end":9144.684,"text":"謝謝主席 那其實就是說我們的出發點都是一樣的就是說你如果是這個一生有罪的話停職 停職期間就不給薪水嘛那現在就是說你如果還他清白之後要怎麼去做這個補救措施我想說內政部這一個修正動議的這一個後來再做補充的說明我認為這樣子算完整了啦"},{"start":9145.324,"end":9153.969,"text":"就是等於是你借滿之後如果這個官司已經還他清滿或是檢察官不起訴那我們就一樣給他薪水啦好不好好"},{"start":9154.588,"end":9180.725,"text":"張律委我覺得啦大家參考一下齁在他修正文字前予以補發那個啊齁我們先不用寫齁就規定付值後或其任其屆滿後經法院的來來來來來處分確定者予以補發你就不用寫一個予以補發然後後面再寫一個已同順一下文字嘛對不對那個key一下看一下好不好"},{"start":9185.455,"end":9186.557,"text":"好像是 因為其實剛剛都講好了"},{"start":9224.18,"end":9226.963,"text":"來 我們的好朋友廖參事 麻煩做一下補充說明"},{"start":9237.671,"end":9238.293,"text":"主席各位"},{"start":9240.313,"end":9266.513,"text":"新增的這個紅色的部分剛剛是以只有判決無罪確定那後來我們跟主管機關這邊做討論因為停止的第三款試油積壓或通緝也有可能是在偵查期間發生那這樣的案件最後也有可能因為犯罪嫌疑不足而不起訴處分確定所以是增列上去"},{"start":9268.194,"end":9283.4,"text":"不過加上去這個我想這個組織就是對標那個法院判決無罪確定我想這兩個大概沒有什麼問題不過因為剛剛發現就是那個獲得上半部獲得上半部這一些是78條"},{"start":9303.105,"end":9319.498,"text":"抱歉啦 因為這是剛剛很臨時的又調整我們前面 或我前面加個分號對啦 加個逗號比較 段距比較清楚如果是這樣咧 634我移一下"},{"start":9348.843,"end":9356.91,"text":"我們先問一下目前是沒有看到什麼問題了好啦 那就這樣子好不好各位好 印出來畫押那我們就修正通過"},{"start":9361.163,"end":9375.409,"text":"我剛剛有請教過就是說如果他在當屆的任期的時候呢因為沒有影響到他可以再擔任那個候選人所以逾期任期的任期是指什麼時候的任期"},{"start":9376.309,"end":9399.205,"text":"因為他可以再補選 再選你懂我意思嗎所以他的任期是指什麼是四年一次的任期還是這個補足未來的任期要講清楚所以期的這個部分定義要再清楚一點我不曉得各位了解 了不了解我的意思譬如說某一個對 譬如說某一個人到明年年底他任期結束那沒有影響到他的被選舉權不是 部長"},{"start":9405.236,"end":9424.095,"text":"如果我沒記錯的話依我們現在選舉罷免訪問的相關規定他如果再重新當選等於是民意給他一個一個清白的機會了所以他等於是重新接受民意的行李那是一個新的了所以他的薪水應該就是"},{"start":9426.021,"end":9431.385,"text":"就新的那一屆重新當選應該就可以領了吧應該就是可以領新的沒有問題我現在講的逾期任期屆滿是指什麼意思就是他上一屆吧一定要四年嗎"},{"start":9441.109,"end":9458.35,"text":"對啊就當屆應該說當屆任期屆嘛是這個意思吧就他缺的那一塊吧他如果重新再當選他那屆新的一屆我知道講清楚就好了我的意思平常狀況之下都是四年一起四年一起對不對齁那在補選過後的算一起對不對"},{"start":9460.63,"end":9484.021,"text":"所以我們的期的任期是指四年一起被停職的那一屆對啦當屆任期啦然後如果不滿四年就用不滿四年為主來算我不曉得各位了不了解要講清楚啦因為我本來是想說期任期把它改成該屆任期啦所以應該不影響結果嘛對不對好啦那我們還是照"},{"start":9485.475,"end":9503.907,"text":"委員會宣傳版本通過 好嗎主席 但是我覺得部長這樣講是比較清楚啦對 那文字上 因為文字上不影響效果啦該借 該借的任期要加該借嗎也可以啊 或與其該借任期借滿我覺得這樣會比較清楚一點耶來 廖三世 又麻煩你了一分是大家的好朋友廖三世 閃亮登場我們的好朋友"},{"start":9513.411,"end":9533.345,"text":"主管機關這邊對民意代表的描述是用當屆還是可以加當屆任期也可以那如果說怕說條文太複雜也可以第二個方案是把它敘述在立法說明欄裡面就是說剛剛疑惑的地方寫在立法說明欄裡面大概就這兩個"},{"start":9535.536,"end":9558.053,"text":"來 洪律委員我都沒有意見看要寫在立法說明或這邊如果這法部認為沒有問題也是可以啦齁這個沒有特別啦但你要再去寫規定詳細的話我跟你講鄉鎮市長是一種沒完沒了啦阿你那個縣市議員又一種還是立法說明的就補充好了好不好我們條文就這樣一個"},{"start":9562.222,"end":9585.072,"text":"因為我們從法條的對稱性上來講78條有寫啦這個基因撤銷、通訊、通訊報紙與其任期借滿錢一樣也是用這個文字啦要不然我們在立法說明來做一個補充好不好就是以當屆為這樣的概念那我們就還是照這個文字通過大家可以嗎好 謝謝那待會發下去大家簽字畫樣好 我們現在宣讀後面83條就不處理"},{"start":9592.666,"end":9601.839,"text":"好,83條之9之10之11之12我們就不處理嘛,因為我們上次講處理之7嘛好不好,好,那我們宣讀協商結論,大家辛苦了"},{"start":9626.466,"end":9627.387,"text":"好報告聯席委員會"},{"start":9628.772,"end":9650.421,"text":"我們現在宣讀協商結論,請宣讀地方制度法部分條文修正草案協商結論第七條之一不予修正,第七條之四不予採納第33條修正通過,第52條不予修正第55條委員劉許廷等修正動議保留第56條委員劉許廷等委員陳超明等修正動議保留"},{"start":9657.475,"end":9679.491,"text":"第六十一條修正通過第七十八條不予修正第八十三條之三不予修正第八十三條之七委員高清素美等在修正在修正動議委員黃捷等修正動議保留第八十三條之九八十三條之十八十三條之十一八十三條之十二不予採納沒了"},{"start":9685.195,"end":9704.971,"text":"好 請問各位委員照剛剛的協商結論通過 請問有異議沒有好 我們就這樣通過那我們做以下的決議這個討論事項所列議案地方制度法第七條之一條文修正長等十七案以併案審查完據拟據審查報告提報願會討論請問在場委員是否需經黨團協商保留條文的部分請張宏祿委員這旁邊還有一隻"},{"start":9719.121,"end":9739.83,"text":"第一個 剛剛我們之前的33條跟61條修正通過 那個就不用再協商了就不用協商了反正我還是尊重我們主席如果今天要出去協商也沒有意見但是我覺得如果剛剛那幾個"},{"start":9741.468,"end":9748.399,"text":"我個人會建議是說反正時間也沒有急要不要再開一次會我這個是我個人的我覺得這樣子你參考"},{"start":9753.773,"end":9774.18,"text":"好 謝謝因為基本上這個法案已經經過詢答而且其實第二會期就已經有開始討論了嘛這等於是第三次委員會的會議了所以我們還是照本來的結論我們就是55條 56條83支7條的這個修正動議及再修正動議我們這三條的部分進黨團協商這樣我們也兼具了效率好不好那我們就經過屈經黨團協商"},{"start":9776.241,"end":9798.775,"text":"那本案的約會討論時由本席牛召集委員許廷做補充說明審查通過的條文、條次引述條文部分文字及相關法治用語我們授權主席及議事人員整理另外本次修正之條文行政機關如有補充立法說明的部分請會後盡速送至內政委員會我們一併納入審查報告那麼我們本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":9802.519,"end":9807.044,"text":"有啦 他的意思就是33跟60不協商對啊其他不協商"},{"start":9867.595,"end":9868.387,"text":"by 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委員審發會等19人擬拒"},{"start":1902.57,"end":1924.25,"text":"運動彩券發行條例第二條及第21條條文修正草案3.委員葉元芝等19人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案4.委員葛無鈞等20人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第二條及第21條條文修正草案"},{"start":1933.865,"end":1955.342,"text":"5.委員羅廷偉等17人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條質疑條維修人草案6.委員蔡其昌等16人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第2條及第21條條維修人草案委員王美惠等24人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第20條"},{"start":1957.984,"end":1972.829,"text":"之一條維修人草案委員吳思瑤等18人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條之一條維修人草案委員郭國文等17人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員張雅玲等18人擬拒運動財券發行條例第二條及"},{"start":1986.353,"end":2011.92,"text":"21條及21條之一條文修正草案委員吳麗華等17人擬具運動彩券發行條例第二條第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員鍾嘉斌等21人擬具運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員吳佩儀等21人擬具運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2012.72,"end":2032.79,"text":"委員林玉璟等28人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員李昆城等24人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員柯之恩等19人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員"},{"start":2040.594,"end":2065.468,"text":"范雲等19人米軍運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案第二審查運動彩券發行條例相關修正草案共12案委員蔡義瑜等18人米軍運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員林思明等20人"},{"start":2067.109,"end":2088.446,"text":"你具運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員洪孟凱等16人你具運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員林倩琦等19人你具運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2090.953,"end":2096.705,"text":"委員陳素月等17人擬具運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條"},{"start":2098.228,"end":2109.217,"text":"及第21條之一條維修人草案委員郭玉琴等18人擬拒運動彩券條例第21條條維修人草案委員陳秀寶等24人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第二條第21條第21條之一運動條維修人草案委員萬美玲等16人"},{"start":2122.028,"end":2148.482,"text":"拟据运动彩券发行条例第二条及第21条条文修认草案委员罗美林等17人拟据运动彩券发行条例第二条及21条及21条之一条文修认草案台湾民众党党团拟据运动彩券发行条例第二条第21条及第21条之一条文修认草案"},{"start":2150.492,"end":2167.057,"text":"委員葉仁芝等20人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員李博義等17人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":2170.606,"end":2185.394,"text":"好 那我們今天就針對以上這些條文這些修正草案來進行逐條審查那首先先來介紹在場官員先介紹在場委員我們看到范雲委員柯之恩委員郭育晴委員吳麗華委員劉書斌委員葉元芝委員吳佩奕委員"},{"start":2200.97,"end":2228.507,"text":"葛如君 張偉謝榮介委員羅廷偉委員好 我們介紹我們與會的官員鄭英耀部長體育署鄭世忠署長法治署鄭乃文處長法務部汪南軍參事內政部警政署刑事警察局廖宗鴻警政監好 謝謝"},{"start":2231.547,"end":2255.23,"text":"本案已於114年4月9日詢答完畢那新增委員蔡易瑜等12人的提案版本那就不再進行詢答並入本次的共同審查委員若臨時提案也請於上午10點30分前提出處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理"},{"start":2256.531,"end":2264.014,"text":"現在審查運動彩券發行條例相關修正草案進行逐條審查請議事人員宣讀條文內容並進行討論討論時若有新增修正動議再請議事人員一併宣讀運動"},{"start":2285.286,"end":2313.762,"text":"運動改建發行條例部分條文修正草案委員林倩琦等提案第一條第一項未修正增訂第二項本條例由主管機關統籌推動運動產業及體育發展政策之執行委員沈發慧等提案葉元芝等提案葛如君等提案蔡其昌等提案林倩琦等提案張雅琳等提案吳立華等提案吳佩義等提案陳樹悅等提案萬美玲等提案"},{"start":2314.529,"end":2343.839,"text":"羅美玲等提案陳秀寶等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條均為本條例之主管機關為運動部行政院提案第二十一條除第一項中詐訴後增進文字利誘第二項拒守增修正為意圖營利或三人以上共同犯前項之罪者增訂第三項犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":2344.454,"end":2361.338,"text":"致送商者處三年以上十年以上有期徒刑各得併科新台幣兩千萬元以上五千萬元以下罰金原第三項第一為第四項並修正為第一項及第二項之未稅犯罰資原第四項刪除其餘未修正"},{"start":2362.506,"end":2385.152,"text":"委員審判會等提案第21條 除第一鄉中紮訴後增訂文字利誘好各位委員那我們就現在開始來進行逐條審查那首先我們來看第一條第一條由委員林倩琦等19人的修正條文"},{"start":2386.991,"end":2399.313,"text":"第一條 第一條是林倩琦委員這邊來提出那第一條林倩琦委員提出的第一條第二項的修正那"},{"start":2401.954,"end":2420.44,"text":"對 那林建啟委員不在現場所以這一條是不是請部長或者是署長要不要做一些說明有關林委員的提案增列第二項民電本條例由主管機關統籌推動運動產業運動體育發展政策的執行一項"},{"start":2425.081,"end":2433.833,"text":"這個部分已經是本來就有的存在的沒有另予規定的必要因此建議維持現行條文好那我們這一條林倩琦的這個修正條文我們就"},{"start":2440.262,"end":2467.472,"text":"不予處理啦那就依照原版 依照原版建議維持現行條文好 那就這樣子通過啦好 那我們再來進行第二條第二條有審發會等19人葉元芝等19人葛如君等20人蔡其昌等16人"},{"start":2469.433,"end":2477.942,"text":"張雅琳等18人 吳麗華等17人 吳珮儀等21人林倩琦等19人 陳素月等17人 陳秀寶等24人萬美玲等16人 羅美玲等17人 台灣民眾黨還有"},{"start":2495.173,"end":2514.843,"text":"以上的委員們提出的第二條的修正條文那第二條是改主管機關為運動部那這個委員有沒有要發表意見的第二條有關於第二條要改主管機關為運動部的"},{"start":2518.024,"end":2539.672,"text":"那本席的看法有齁 來 張雅玲委員威逼利誘手段及第二項聚首增訂易讀盈利或其餘未修正第三項同行政院提案第三項第四項未修正原第三項一至第五項必修正為第一項及第二項未遂犯法之"},{"start":2545.543,"end":2565.89,"text":"委員您切其等 提案第21條第一項及第二項 統行政院提案第一項及第二項 增訂第三項犯第一項或第二項之罪 致人重傷死亡者處七年以上有期徒刑 得罪的前項等到我們財政委員會的周嘉賓委員他財政交委耶第一項或增訂文字"},{"start":2573.513,"end":2596.838,"text":"好,那我可以問問題了嗎?我詢問一下就說因為這個教育部這邊提的是說建議配合運動部成立期程以公告管轄變更的方式處理這個可以說明清楚會用怎麼樣的方式來進行嗎?因為過去我們在修一些相關的法令的話都會明定嘛所以要用這種方式處理的話到底可不可以簡單說明一下?"},{"start":2597.858,"end":2603.259,"text":"主管機關委運動部9月9號就要掛牌不然到時還是要再修法一次還是必須修好沒關係那我們請那個提議書說明"},{"start":2621.397,"end":2646.912,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為行政院已經有公告9月9日國民體育日為運動部的施行日期但由於運動部的施行日期目前也還沒就是還沒有到啦現在還沒有到9月9號所以我們這邊因為法規也很多所以我們過去的做法就是建議以公告變更管轄的方式來進行處理那當然如果說委員"},{"start":2647.632,"end":2662.876,"text":"有堅持在這邊用運動部改成運動部為主管機關的話變成是下面的最後一條法我們可能要改成說這個本條例的施行修正要施行要在9月9號才開始,不然會有矛盾"},{"start":2667.057,"end":2692.62,"text":"好 那我們部長說明一下因為我想這一個還是要請委員支持等運動部成立以後才用這個公告來變更的一個方式因為我們採見並不是新訂的法到這個要運動部以後成立才適應是目前就在施行的法我們只是勿問的修正所以以現在的管轄它還是隸屬在這個教育部"},{"start":2694.521,"end":2709.04,"text":"所以我們如果現在改為可能會有一個空窗期對其中間所產生的一些運動採建相關的一些業務的推動可能有一些造成困擾那以上補充,謝謝"},{"start":2716.005,"end":2734.312,"text":"那體育署部長的說明很明確就是說還是建議希望維持現行條文那我們主管機關的部分日後我們這個透過公告變更管轄的方式處理的方式就好了好 那我們第二條就不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":2737.469,"end":2745.954,"text":"因為剛剛部長講說因為現在還沒改運動部嘛所以現在改的話會矛盾那我的問題就是因為現在是不處理所以是等到919號運動部成立之後然後這個今天沒有處理的條文還會再拿來處理還是說就不理他"},{"start":2763.926,"end":2779.199,"text":"還是就一公告而已不是不是你到時候運動部成立之後還是會有矛盾因為他會變成本條例主管機關是教育部所以他還是會出現矛盾問題所以你要到時候要怎麼"},{"start":2781.32,"end":2798.869,"text":"剛剛署長的意思就是我回答一下好了其實議員講的是有他道理就是說我們公告管轄變更之後未來如果這個條文有需要再修正的時候我們再一併再來處理就可以了先公告就算數了"},{"start":2800.962,"end":2802.363,"text":"21條有行政院的版本 審發會等19人"},{"start":2820.635,"end":2820.895,"text":"董事長"},{"start":2851.195,"end":2877.99,"text":"16人 林倩琦等19人 陳素月等17人郭雨琴等18人 陳秀寶等24人 萬美玲等16人台灣民眾黨還有 羅美玲等21人 葉元芝等21人李柏宜等17人齁其實我們每個委員提的版本都有齁好 那我們這一條要發言的數據 等一下齁不好意思 不然這樣好不好 我們這一"},{"start":2879.391,"end":2899.201,"text":"我們這一趴先從前面來啦那我們下一趴還從後面來好那我們就范雲委員柯之恩委員郭盂晴委員吳麗華委員劉淑敏委員妳要發言嗎沒有齁那就葉元芝 鍾嘉斌然後吳佩奕委員還有葛國軍招委還有羅廷偉好 OK"},{"start":2902.943,"end":2928.71,"text":"那我就先發言那我這個版本那事實上是跟願版一致那其實就是要增加利誘這個部分還有意圖盈利的部分那這個我想這個利誘的部分其實是就是這一次的一個關鍵重點那待會也許就是教育部或是體育署這邊可以回應一下目前遇到的困難比較是怎麼樣那我們這樣是不是能夠完全確定能夠處理相關的問題以上"},{"start":2932.102,"end":2954.315,"text":"那我们接下来有请克兹恩委员好那我想今天审查的这个运彩条例那个体育署主要是配合我们上会几年通过的运产这个条例那我想比照这个加重影响运动赛事的公平的相关的刑责跟罚金我想文字上跟内容上面大家是不会有太大的意见了"},{"start":2955.376,"end":2983.167,"text":"只是呢这次修法你说要为我真的觉得这次正是来做业绩的好不好因为基本上上次都已经通过了那我比较在乎说到底对我们这个社会的影响到底是如何啦我想说上次我们所提到的运产已经说已经涵盖所有该被重罚的赛事那体育署若要在运彩上做这个比条例上面比照修法我想我们都可以尊重特别是有院版了"},{"start":2983.707,"end":3011.093,"text":"但是呢我比较提出来是运采是比较运产那我们很多知道我们比较想知道等一下阔席腾体育署利用这个机会可以来做一个说明体育署到底有没有按照我们当时修法的精神跟附带的决议来做一个执行特别是我还是要提出来我们甚至提到了这个运动这个防堵的信托基金这件事情那时候我们朝野大基本上都是一致通过决议要求体育署到三到六月来完成"},{"start":3011.833,"end":3038.444,"text":"那我今年四月的時候也在教委會的時候還問署長到底有沒有跟這些運動工會溝通那署長也跟我們講說是有跟工會做過一些聯繫啦但是呢我想我質詢之後呢就得到這個體育署是在我們事後才去跟這個運動員工會來開會所以呢而且還在會議上針對當初修法的時候我們對於體育署種種的要求這個部分我真的還是覺得是否一定要等到這個共識你才會來做所以我覺得"},{"start":3040.425,"end":3062.034,"text":"这些的附带决议等等之类的等一下可能书长也是要跟我们说明一下虽然我们有做了这么多的这个法律条文上面的这些修正但是真正的执行特别在一些我们这些所谓的运动的协会这个地方所造成这么多的一些的问题包括昨天庄志渊的这个怎样的一个事件我想都是我们在"},{"start":3062.714,"end":3086.981,"text":"讨论这样的一个之后呢那个执行度跟那个力度还有我们当初说法的精神是要维护运动员的这个基本的权益跟他们基本所应该要的部分所以我觉得这个部分等一下可能很多人也会有意见但是呢憨不郎当的21条跟21条文字上不会有意见但是执行程度还有对于协会所造成的影响的保障我觉得这一点体育署势必要把它说明清楚对"},{"start":3088.697,"end":3105.792,"text":"好 那我們現在請郭玉琴委員好 這個21條當然跟原版一樣就是上面的利誘跟意圖盈利這一塊那我比較擔心的就是利誘這個詞如果沒有一個明確的定義有可能會產生一些灰色的一個地帶"},{"start":3106.533,"end":3122.89,"text":"那比方說安排出國比賽算不算或者是說保障續約算不算這種鼓勵性質的或者是幫忙轉介到其他的這個隊伍算不算那有一些情境它的界線是比較模糊的那如果是私下去談有條件的鼓勵會不會也被錯認為所謂的這個利用"},{"start":3127.094,"end":3141.529,"text":"所以在這個解釋上面如果有執法人員他是要擴大解釋的話那會不會引起有很多的選手可能也會有所謂的寒蟬效應或其他的團隊內部的一個管理獎勵的制度會不會受到阻礙"},{"start":3142.33,"end":3169.188,"text":"那另外就是那個意圖盈利的部分就要加重處罰這樣子好執行嗎這是我比較擔心的部分那實際上就是要怎麼樣做一個判斷怎麼樣來做一個舉證那我們希望就是能夠更清楚就是所謂的意圖盈利的加重的一個規定是不是可以搭配其他可以判斷的一些事實的標準那有沒有具體的一個查緝的一個工具還有一些協助的一個技術這個執法單位讓"},{"start":3171.289,"end":3198.76,"text":"執法單位可以查明他的一個動機啦那這個是我比較擔心的這兩個部分喔那昨天當然講到這個體育結構長期的一個壓抑選手喔那保障這個應該是說保障選手的部分喔那尤其是集權協會文化是真的叫冰山的一角啦昨天的事件真的是冰山一角喔那接下來其實我相信有很多的重點是在於改革喔那希望昨天的這件事件不要變成是一個"},{"start":3200.117,"end":3200.737,"text":"好 接下來我們請吳麗華委員"},{"start":3227.025,"end":3253.799,"text":"謝謝主席不論是我們1月增訂的修訂的運動產業發展條例又或者是今天的運採發行條例我想都是為了健全我們的運動產業所以賽事的公平性是很重要的所以這一次修法的部分我們也同樣的支持教育部的版本就是關於像利誘的部分"},{"start":3254.699,"end":3276.641,"text":"就規範變成刑責那又或者是基於盈利的部分因為他的破壞是更嚴重的所以呢也希望加重處罰那另外呢像那種置人於死的其實呢我也在第三項就特別加重其刑謝謝好我們接下來請葉元之委員"},{"start":3278.593,"end":3301.641,"text":"同樣我這邊也是就是配合運產條例的修訂把那個利誘加進去那另外就是如果說有犯罪然後致死部分的話我這邊修的是最高制處無期徒刑那也想要了解一下行政機關如果這樣的法律在執行上會不會有什麼困難等一下請那個行政機關說明一下 謝謝好 接下來請中央編委員"},{"start":3302.964,"end":3322.805,"text":"好 謝謝現在我們要討論是運載條例第21條以及第21條之一現在是21條那我先講21條那麼21條這個部分請大家可以看到我們條例最大表第5頁因為行政院版跟本席的條文差別在我加入了在第三項之後加入第四項"},{"start":3323.846,"end":3341.01,"text":"第四項的內容是說擁有運動團隊經營權之法人團體及其代表人管理人與相關從業人員應該有一些的義務為者呢可以處以行政法當時本席在委員會進行詢問答的時候有提出了兩點那麼我們的"},{"start":3345.083,"end":3373.145,"text":"教育部呢也針對本席的答覆呢給我的書面回應那當時我提出的一個是比例那比例跟21條無關但是呢跟21條本席提出的第四項有關的呢這裡面呢我這邊唸給大家聽請教育部仔細聽你們這裡提到說會隱匿或抗拒者為法人團體之代表人管理人或相關從業人員均為自然人而非法人團體之行為故違反規定者為自然人非法人或團體好了本席提出是提醒說"},{"start":3374.575,"end":3394.916,"text":"對 沒有錯 如果是刑責的話你對於自然人來刻以刑責有很大的嚇阻力譬如說在這樣的運動經濟當中涉及類似放水 炸堵的行為這當然自然人要負起刑責但是相關的體育團體好啦 我就舉例來說了像昨天我們看到我們"},{"start":3396.818,"end":3408.01,"text":"教育部呢非常有魄力的對於桌協發出了一個很嚴厲的警告要求他要怎樣要道歉道歉值幾毛錢真正團體會痛的是什麼是你們的第二點你們凍結他的補助但是凍結補助傷了誰"},{"start":3417.143,"end":3443.329,"text":"馬上第二天我們就看到啦 裝置運結起來啦請教育部手下留情啊整個桌球界因為他們這個事件如果因此而被教育部凍結補助是全體的桌球界的運動員他們擔心去蒙受因為協會的不當行為遭到教育部的行政處分我強調教育部凍結這個補助款它不是一個行政裁罰喔它是一個"},{"start":3444.449,"end":3454.875,"text":"行政上的一種單項的處分但是我這個條文第四項說的是什麼可以刻以他們行政法"},{"start":3456.164,"end":3484.151,"text":"行政法行政法不是針對自然人是針對法人跟社團我不斷的在提醒說這個第四項要提醒教育部的是說在運彩條例當中教育部手上如果沒有對桌協的補助款他今天對你的所謂的鄭重道歉嚴重道歉他根本可以置之不理啊今天體育署你今天可以這麼嗆聲的說要求桌協鄭重的跟選手道歉你的底氣在哪裡"},{"start":3485.253,"end":3502.495,"text":"你的底氣在於握有桌鞋我們政府的補助款嘛你連處罰他罰還的能力都沒有啊你連處罰他罰還的能力都沒有結果你動他的補助款是桌鞋受害嗎不是啊是長期以來在我們桌球界裡面的選手跟這些運動團隊受害啊"},{"start":3505.051,"end":3520.421,"text":"所以我不斷在提醒我看到教育部給我這個答覆我傻眼了運採條例當然我們要防什麼防打放水球打假球我們防止他詐賭這些組頭這些球員都是自然人可以行則沒有錯但是這些相關協會的縱容"},{"start":3524.994,"end":3549.699,"text":"你行政機關你拿他沒辦法你動了他的補助款也不是他受害不是他從口袋裡掏出來的如果今天你有行政法這個桌協你罰他一百萬你罰他一千萬誰要拿錢出來不是選手受害是協會要負責繳交這個行政法所以你們在這裡也給我附上了司法院的一個答覆"},{"start":3551.124,"end":3560.975,"text":"剛好我上會期在司法制委員會司法院的書面意見我是可以接受但是我在這裡他這裡說的不治正己罪我同意"},{"start":3561.872,"end":3590.415,"text":"因為對於自然人對於自己所犯的犯行我們要求他主動配合調查這個是有違反我們不自證己罪的原則但是我這裡強調的不是自然人我強調的是協會協會的負責人他要如何為他的疏失縱容甚至包庇我們怎麼樣行政機關可以及時給他行政處罰所以待會我希望教育部能夠針對類似像桌寫明白的"},{"start":3591.519,"end":3607.662,"text":"危害了選手的權益的時候我是以運彩條例為例他在其他的事項上在選手的競技培育過程當中這些協會有些山頭他們來侵犯選手的權益他們妨礙了我們參與運動賽事觀賞的觀眾的權益的時候你除了刑罰之外"},{"start":3614.744,"end":3636.719,"text":"你有沒有行政法的手段所以我在這裡呼籲第21條關於行政法的手段教育部行政院不要輕言放棄不然的話你們下次再遇到不管是哪一個鞋網鞋桌鞋什麼鞋他不拿你的補助款你跟他一點辦法都沒有了所以請你們好好的思考一下就這點後面呢再統一的做聰明答覆謝謝調文你的21條你的行政法寫在哪裡啊"},{"start":3644.042,"end":3655.409,"text":"在哪裡 我們看一下滑板呢第七頁第五頁也有儲新台幣200萬以上 1000萬以上的滑板"},{"start":3682.834,"end":3695.847,"text":"我安顧一下那個嘉賓的喔因為我的行政法也是有我的行政法也是放在上面但是原版的是把它拿掉的好 那我是不是接下來再請再請那個吳佩玉委員發言喔 來"},{"start":3698.373,"end":3701.854,"text":"待會我們再討論 不好意思待會我們等下討論那個條文的時候我們再來 對 對好 我們先請先請吳佩玉委員發言好 我的提案版本是在第二頁那我同樣是認為原來的版本的第四項就是有關於球團或者是法人等等團體去妨礙司法調查的時候我們要如何處罰的問題那因為在"},{"start":3728.486,"end":3731.348,"text":"舊的條文當中第四項是關於行政法而在新版的條文當中政院把這一段第四項整個拿掉了那他們的說明是說因為這一個若有妨害司法調查已經同時觸犯刑法"},{"start":3745.68,"end":3758.365,"text":"就是以刑法而處之那我認同這個精神但是因為民眾其實不會看到立法說明所以我的版本的第四項我的寫法是一樣是把第四項寫進去那把它所觸犯的刑法相關的規定把它明確地列在這一個21條當中"},{"start":3765.547,"end":3782.977,"text":"就不會有說民眾看到舊的跟新的一對照以為說本來球團或是法人有妨礙司法調查的時候要處罰結果現在新版反而不用其實不是這樣而是我們以更重的刑法來處罰他所以我的第四項是把刑法一起寫進去好 謝謝好 那我們再來請葛國軍召委"},{"start":3791.086,"end":3814.137,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉這次的運採條例的修法我想各個委員的版本其實跟行政院的版本沒有太大的差異所以大部分的文字本席也尊重院版這次大家也就是希望能夠為運動的產業還有相關的東西來往正向發展來前進院版剛剛有提到一些一事不兩罰的原則"},{"start":3816.498,"end":3837.675,"text":"這個大原則框架上本席也是不反對畢竟修法的目的是要嚇阻這些意圖破壞賽事公平的這些人那如果刑事訴訟法跟刑法有相關規範那刪除現行的法案規定也無不可但是剛剛也有委員有提到就是實務上可能會出現不是自然人的情況"},{"start":3838.556,"end":3862.841,"text":"那原條文的第四項或許也就有保留的必要那這邊也是一樣也希望請教育部再多做一點說明 謝謝好 我們接下來請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝昭偉我想也是尊重院版但是的確剛剛有委員所提到那樣子的狀況我們還是要重視所以待會也請教育部主管機關一起來回應 謝謝好 那張雅玲委員要補充"},{"start":3867.594,"end":3890.517,"text":"我補充一下就是說我突然想起來我們上次在修的時候我們在講到利誘這兩個字的時候司法院有提到說這可能在實務上面會有一點難判斷的樣子像上次有提到類似這樣子的意見啦所以我想說那到底我們上次修法之後有沒有造成什麼樣子的問題是不是也可以做一些相關的說明這樣子但我們這次再放進去的時候才不會才可以避免這樣子的問題"},{"start":3893.423,"end":3908.279,"text":"好那本席也有對21條進行修正那基本上還是跟原版相同那我想我們大家幾乎都對於這一條提出各自的版本"},{"start":3908.86,"end":3914.223,"text":"那也幾乎都跟院版大同小異那我想大家的想法都是一樣喔就是說因為我們運動產業發展條例已經有增訂第七條之三喔就是要新增妨礙運動競技賽事公平性的太陽喔那可是因為我們運採條例運動"},{"start":3927.589,"end":3954.104,"text":"券發行條例並沒有跟進所以我們這一次特別把利誘這個太陽納入那並且意圖透過這些犯罪的太陽來盈利的行為也納入懲處喔那當然也考量到行使這些犯罪太陽而導致加重結果的時候應該要加重刑責我想這個條文的基本精神在這裡好 那如果那這樣我們是不是就是請體育署署長來做一些"},{"start":3956.467,"end":3968.528,"text":"有關委員提到 包括范委員 郭委員 葉委員 張委員跟趙委這邊提到一些關於利誘跟意圖盈利是否加重的部分這邊是不是可以請保護部的參事來幫忙先做一個解釋"},{"start":3973.914,"end":4000.51,"text":"主席跟各位委員各位先進大家好就委員們剛剛提問的有關這個利誘跟意圖盈利的部分那我們這裡有做一個研析也跟委員們報告對於利誘的解釋的確我們現在那個刑事實體法除了運產條例的第七條之三第二項之外我們過去是沒有利誘當構成要件在刑事實體法裡面那"},{"start":4002.082,"end":4010.414,"text":"目前除了只有一個入海空軍刑法的第46條是唯一有這個用利誘當作構成要件的刑事罪名"},{"start":4011.704,"end":4039.635,"text":"但是我們搜尋司法實務目前也還沒有以利誘罪名定罪的個案那我們的初步意見是說因為過去沒有這樣的一個構成要件這個犯罪樣態但是現在我們的一些犯罪情境可能利誘是有必要入法的這個狀況那我們的初步意見是這個利誘的重點應該是不在於那個金錢的流動可能不是只以收受財務或者是利益為要件"},{"start":4041.756,"end":4069.112,"text":"只要有以財務或利益引誘就有可能成罪就是不是以收受來當它的構成要件可能只要有財務或利益的引誘就有成罪的可能可是因為這個硬產條例才剛三讀通過不久好像不到半年那對於這個利誘的解釋我們是需要實務形成一些判決案例見解才能夠進一步的判斷那這個部分只要"},{"start":4070.793,"end":4093.68,"text":"可是個案的判斷沒有辦法一概而論那就檢察官而言如果知道有犯罪嫌疑我們就會調查那如果有這個主任有犯罪嫌疑我們會提起就會起訴那法院必須是以沒有合理懷疑才能判決有罪那這個部分判斷的時候我們相信過去的經驗如果有一個新的一個狀況其實都是會綜合判斷包括他的動機"},{"start":4094.54,"end":4107.944,"text":"目的還手段一切形狀來做綜合的判斷跟整理那這樣子應該還是要可能有待實務累積案例的見解才能夠框界線這個利誘要怎麼樣去認定以上"},{"start":4112.492,"end":4134.401,"text":"那意圖營利待會再說嗎還是現在直接說好那有關意圖營利的這個部分呢有委員認為說這個韓式這個韓社範圍會太廣但請委員應該是不用擔心因為我們在刑事法裡面已經有很多條文都是有意圖營利的包括防害風化包括這個"},{"start":4136.643,"end":4151.114,"text":"鴉片罪 包括賭博罪 妨害秘密罪 妨害信隱私不實影像這些罪其實都有意圖營利的當構成要件 其實這過去對檢察官來講我們要舉證證明他是有沒有意圖營利 這本來就是檢察官的責任同樣的運產條例已經"},{"start":4156.218,"end":4166.359,"text":"跟這個已經三讀硬產條例一樣好對於意圖盈利作為構成要件也還一點點時間還沒有形成有帶食物的案例來累積所以我們"},{"start":4167.978,"end":4188.28,"text":"還沒有辦法一概而論在這個運採條例跟運產條例這部分有關意圖盈利到底要怎麼來做未來的判斷但是我們依照過去的經驗那法院判斷意圖盈利應該是會有主觀的範疑還有客觀的證據客觀的證據包括比如說相關共犯的通訊記錄還有"},{"start":4190.422,"end":4218.203,"text":"假設在這個意圖盈利的狀況我們這個投注標的他們的投注情形還有我們的賽事數據這些將來應該都是會是一個蒐證的重點來推定有沒有盈利的意圖那另外可能還有包括像如果被告有反證他有舉出來說他可以合理解釋他的資金來源然後比如說他就說他他雖然一直有在投注這個但是他這個是沒有對價關係他只是私人恩怨來放水那這個是不是意圖盈利那就"},{"start":4218.743,"end":4245.504,"text":"可以再就個案來做進行判斷那而且這個依照經驗法則認定是不是有達到這個沒有合理懷疑的程度這個法院都會做綜合判斷這個有待實務來累積案件的案例的判決見解以上好這樣有沒有委員好再嘉賓好嘉賓委員好再來柯志恩委員"},{"start":4249.096,"end":4276.222,"text":"我想我尊重法務部的見解法務部見解是當你對原21條的條文當中原來的這些犯罪行為的樣態的界定未來怎麼依法來給他入罪這個我們是支持的但是剛剛本席所提的其實是要提醒教育部提醒運動體育署 未來的運動部其實原來的第四項其實不必然要跟前兩項"},{"start":4277.822,"end":4297.083,"text":"前兩項的所謂的強暴脅迫詐訴或利誘或者是說這個意圖營利因為這些犯刑都是有刑法上 形式上可以認定的樣態去予以定罪但是今天一個職業運動會墮落到有球員放水有賭盤操作"},{"start":4298.581,"end":4313.965,"text":"有相關的人員去介入去從事這些不法行為其實它的組織經營環境必然的是相對的管理不周或甚至是鬆弛那麼因此對於這樣的組織這樣的協會這樣的運動團隊我們不要點任何一個有職業運動的現有的組織只要一旦發生對於該項運動的傷害是非常大的"},{"start":4324.98,"end":4350.511,"text":"那難道當這種情況發生的時候這些球團這些組織的經營主體他們不用負起行政書士上的責任嗎那這種行為當然在單一條文當中前三項是刑法第四項是行政法但是我強調的是第四項的行政法我雖然是原條文保留但是我是希望能夠就行政法的內容跟它的"},{"start":4351.051,"end":4371.759,"text":"界定跟前三項做一個區隔什麼區隔就是不是他去隱匿這個強暴脅迫詐欺的罪證不是而是說因為他的管理疏失他的行政懈怠以至於這樣的環境滋生當然對這樣的組織我們應該主管機關要對他刻意行政處罰"},{"start":4372.899,"end":4400.083,"text":"是這個意思不是說我現在保留源第四條說這些人呢從業人員呢要主動配合司法檢調的調查啦如果隱匿或抗拒呢還要再罰如果他是隱匿再抗拒當然這裡面就在刑法上就會一併克責了嘛根本不需要第四項的行政法嘛所以呢教育部這裡面說的齁第四點您可以給我的答覆說一行為同時觸犯刑事法律以違反行政法上義務的規定者依行政法律處罰之沒有錯"},{"start":4400.803,"end":4416.172,"text":"如果按照原來第四條條文的設計它的確是不需要重複規定它是不需要重複規定但是我這裡講的是說這些組織啊它不見得是從事前兩項前三項的行為而是它基於它應該有的良善管理"},{"start":4416.792,"end":4443.504,"text":"他疏於管理有行政缺失因此我們是對這個組織另刻以行政罰不是對他的刑事責任再加上一個行政處分我想這個呢我是把它強調說這個第四項或許可以保留他行政法的精神但是規範的內容刻者的對象或者他的樣態跟前兩項或前三項可以做個區隔也就是說前三項的犯罪"},{"start":4444.344,"end":4455.178,"text":"如果你是隱匿 那當然就是刑法上可以客處嘛不需要行政法嘛 但是我這裡講的行政法是什麼管理上的鬆散 怠慢甚至這樣的一個方式 不然的話"},{"start":4456.055,"end":4475.474,"text":"我們發現 其實我再講一次啦 這個處長也迫不及待了啦現在這些協會啊 會讓我們覺得很憤慨的是 以作協為例啦這些都是有職業運動潛力的選手他們的運動生也還不會僅止於代表國家或地方去爭取榮譽而已"},{"start":4476.835,"end":4494.94,"text":"他們未來的運動生涯是有參與到職業運動的可能的縱使該項職業運動在本國還沒有產生但是這些協會的這些行為如果真的是有職業運動的環境存在的話這些協會跟組織就更為重要我們只要講一講啦這也坦白講啦過去曾經發生大型醜聞的是什麼國際組總嘛"},{"start":4497.518,"end":4515.593,"text":"國際作動常常被爆出 各國際爆出這個黑金一雲啊 為什麼觀賞人口質疑運動的商業利益太龐大了所以這些組織就算不是直接涉入這些詐賭的行為本身也有縱容的一個責任行政機關當然應該要有克責以上我再次請教育部再三思 謝謝"},{"start":4516.991,"end":4540.698,"text":"好我們再來請柯之恩委員然後再來郭雨琴我配意我覺得這個部分我們今天所審的是運動彩券是運彩條例不是運產條例我覺得這兩個還是有形式上的一個差別我們回到我們運彩條例的這個層面來說剛剛那個法務部裡面特別提到你有關於這個行政有關於利誘跟這個行政"},{"start":4541.478,"end":4562.159,"text":"利诱跟意图引力这两部分虽然我们现在部分的案例收集不是太多样态还不是那么多元但是摆在这个地方目前来说即使发生这样的状况你们还是有在执行上面法院上面还是有机可以来作为一个依据如果是这样的话因为我们运产"},{"start":4562.699,"end":4584.298,"text":"已经讨论过有很多关于这个层面然后目前为止也还没有发生部分那我的建议是在这个部分里面还是保留这个刚刚说的利诱跟意图盈利的这部分嘛起码要有一个时间点才会因为毕竟是上会期所发生的那至于行政法的部分因为刚刚宗教兵的委员是非常的在乎我觉得是不是"},{"start":4585.098,"end":4601.741,"text":"谁要来澄清清楚我个人听起来是我们在讨论运动产业跟运动彩券这个形式上层次上面应该还是有一些的区隔否则如果我们是着力于这个地方大家都无解了那是不是这块我也想做一个澄清一下"},{"start":4603.158,"end":4604.639,"text":"行政法的優勢是可以快速動作"},{"start":4622.034,"end":4647.372,"text":"就是在那個隱匿的部分其實不用等到比方說他還要調查然後起訴然後上法院整個所有的過程可能要一兩年以上那所以這個部分我想說這個行政法它是有實際必要的一個即時性啦那是不是能夠保留這個行政法還作為這個輔助的一個工具我想是不是這一點可以考慮這樣子好 以上好 再來吳佩儀吳佩儀委員"},{"start":4649.666,"end":4656.749,"text":"因為我的版本也是希望可以保留第四項那我剛剛聽了宗教兵委員的說明之後我是支持他就是保留行政法的這一個處罰的規定那至於說這個我們例如說我們在擔心的是說我們現在修這個法就是希望打假球這種威脅利誘的情勢不要發生嘛"},{"start":4673.315,"end":4674.057,"text":"但是他很有可能是在球團或是組織或是法人的經營的時候就成為也許是"},{"start":4681.929,"end":4706.567,"text":"造成後面這個不利的情勢的幫兇或者是推手甚至是有可能的他在管理上面如果不利的話那這個就不完全是直接對應到我們剛剛講的因為刑事刑法的那一條是只有妨礙調查對所以我覺得保留行政法這個手段給我們的行政部門還是很必要的那至於裡面訂定的這個項目"},{"start":4709.029,"end":4717.939,"text":"要怎麼樣去對齊我覺得是可以再討論但是我覺得直接把第四項行政法整個拿掉有可能造成的後果是我們現在所想像不到的"},{"start":4719.634,"end":4743.334,"text":"好那如果沒有人要發言我們就請提議署再說明來好謝謝各位委員剛剛的寶貴意見我想這邊我們回歸到今天的主要議題還是在運動彩券發行條例但不是著重在協會的治理的行為方面那第四項這部分其實它非常明確的就是針對第一項第二項的一些行為有隱匿"},{"start":4744.475,"end":4760.381,"text":"抗拒這樣子的違法行為那違法行為來講我們依照行政法法第26條第一項規定一個行為同時觸犯刑事法律以及違反行政法上義務規定者依刑事法處罰這個部分先以序明那既然"},{"start":4761.041,"end":4788.455,"text":"我們在這個隱匿這部分我們在整個刑法上面都有它的處罰的規範可以運用而且也既有的檢查司法檢查機關調查程序這個過程當中應該由他們依照刑法及刑事訴訟法等相關規定來辦理主要是基於一事不兩罰的原則因此我們才會決定需要刪除行政處罰這樣的一個規定那這邊法務部有沒有要做補充"},{"start":4793.849,"end":4817.206,"text":"是 基本上我們這個問題其實我們回去也有仔細的思考過那我在這邊再跟委員們說明一下就是因為我們這個草案21條第一項第二項規範的行為已經是屬於刑事偵查程序對 大家都可以理解那前提就是處管機關如果例行介入很容易產生權限重疊或抽圖的地方那雖然說道交處罰條例35條有酒駕有行政罰"},{"start":4820.849,"end":4844.106,"text":"然後可是他有搭配而且他的那個對象是有區隔的就是0.25以上才是刑事責任0.25以下0.15以上那個是行政法那前提他們會有行政法還是他這些行為已經有行政處罰在前面所以我們可以做後面的行政調查如果他不配合我們再做這個是一個系統一個體系齁那"},{"start":4846.868,"end":4865.263,"text":"所以一方面他是違法情節的輕重來區別 較重的是刑罰 較輕的行政罰那整個結構反映了行政罰有及時預防的必要性但是而且這個刑事處罰適用對象上也有明確的區隔那另外我要比較大家比較care的是這個部分我們"},{"start":4865.863,"end":4887.974,"text":"因為我們講行政處罰其實是講及時預防這個部分因為我們如果操縱比賽結果這種危害性雖然影響這個公眾的信任跟產業資訊但是老實講在調查這個部分其實不像酒駕立即危及人身安全這樣的一個特性那要調查這種犯罪的抗拒或盈利其實我們就是刑責上面就是有這個"},{"start":4889.334,"end":4914.334,"text":"充分的強制處分權限包括搜索扣押傳喚這些措施他們如果抗拒調查那相關的行為是可以依照這個刑法或刑事送法防害公務執行來追究刑事責任不需要另外加行政處罰其實這樣子這樣的體系架構是比較正確但是有討論到法人跟團體他們就像治理的這個部分這個是有沒有必要主管機關來強化他的行政即時性還有加強主管機關的監理權限這個考量"},{"start":4917.196,"end":4943.084,"text":"如果要這樣的話可能要審酌要不要導入先行政後司法這樣的一個處理模式那我們就必須修正調整相關條文的結構那優先由行政機關先進行調查採取然後再採收及時處理的效果那違法情節達一定程度的這個嚴重的時候我們再由司法機關進行追溯或進一步處理那這個部分我們本部就是尊重委員跟主管機關的政策決定以上"},{"start":4947.779,"end":4972.444,"text":"好 謝謝喔 謝謝那個我們法務部汪參事的說明那這樣好 嘉賓委員好 再聽完法務部的代表 對不起 因為剛劉淑冰 劉淑冰第一次發言不好意思 就這樣講因為我等一下聽到法務部的參事這樣講的話因為目前的這個立法主旨應該是先行事 然後行政對不對"},{"start":4975.729,"end":4994.667,"text":"沒有 沒有 沒有 我就說你當初的目標就是說以刑事為主嘛 對不對因為是尊重主管機關對對對 就主管機關 對 但是可是聽說參事這樣講的話應該是說如果在一定的程度之下的時候應該就在行政間調查之後呢到一定程度的時候 然後再送刑事那這邊是尊重主管機關所以你這時候那個運動這個"},{"start":4999.209,"end":5008.611,"text":"運動這個這個局域署你這邊可能就是真的要給我們一些意見的就是說在這個情況之下你不要先放棄到你自己的一個主管的這樣一個職責那這樣也回應到剛才說的因為如果是個人等等都沒有問題可是如果是因為你自己卸責之後所導致而讓他這些在運採或是有這種有機可勝甚至球員跟那個外面的人員這樣子相勾結這種情況的時候我覺得是"},{"start":5024.834,"end":5032.417,"text":"配合的是法務部主管機關在法律上面未接還包括說行政上面處理的優先順序可能要請這個運動部就是體育署這邊要做一個你們的立場要先拿出來這樣 謝謝好 來 署長我跟各位報告委員因為今天我們實在是沒有辦法在現場去做這樣的區分"},{"start":5048.7,"end":5064.392,"text":"那是不是我們可以今天就是我們先尊重醫院版的方式來進行那如果委員們也堅持的話是就用臨時動議的方式我們來進行研議那不然今天真的沒有辦法解決這件事情是不是 謝謝好 嘉賓"},{"start":5066.284,"end":5085.284,"text":"以上包括我們署長、科委員跟法務部代表的意見我就可以綜合來採納了首先我要再聲明一點職業運動是特許行業特許行業的監督管理俗稱的監理跟金融業的監理"},{"start":5087.466,"end":5113.162,"text":"無分二制啦其實呢主管機關在面對特許行業的管理的時候強度就比一般的人民自由組成的人民團體要來得高很多試想一個運動團體跟一個經營職業運動的組織何者的影響為大當然是特許行業啊那特許行業要靠什麼靠行政機關依行政裁罰的方式介入第二我再講一個大家我就不點名了日本的街運動發生一個醜聞"},{"start":5115.063,"end":5141.971,"text":"著名的主力選手的司機參與什麼?去簽賭簽賭是合法的啊但是你作為一個主力球員的司機你去參加賭盤你當然沒有不說是個醜聞嗎?這當然是個醜聞啊那球團要不要去管理呢?要不要限制這些球員他們本身限制他們參與這些投注的這些相關行為或相關人的接入呢?這些都是行政管理啊"},{"start":5142.932,"end":5153.349,"text":"儘管會對於金融機構的負責人他的相關的一些資訊的透明跟揭露要求很嚴啊只要發生有一些問題除了先你來喝咖啡之外就是裁罰啊"},{"start":5154.403,"end":5173.376,"text":"我是覺得體育部 運動部也好 或者教育部也好對於特許行業的管理的想像 有一點單薄那我同意吉岡法務代表說很清楚了因為呢 第二十一條的法架構 它是前面的兩項的犯罪行為教唆啦 脅迫啦 強暴啦 利誘啦 這些"},{"start":5175.177,"end":5196.545,"text":"那因為第四項是附著在這些犯罪行為樣態之下才產生的那當然可以用刑責來科處嘛,不需要行政法,我同意所以剛剛柯委員說沒有錯,今天我們談的是運產但是未來運動產業的管理其實運動產業組織本身,我們行政機關要有更強高度的規管"},{"start":5197.748,"end":5215.033,"text":"就像我說的日本職棒運動一樣球團可以容許主力球員的司機去簽嗎這當然是不可以的嘛但是目前我們現在有哪個球團他有這樣的規範儘管會對於銀行的內機內控啊他自己的內機內控如果沒有做好馬上援引43條馬上就給他開罰啦內機內控自己沒有做好就開罰啦還不需要你有實際的違法行為啊"},{"start":5220.675,"end":5246.105,"text":"所以我是覺得呢剛剛署長所說的我覺得我們聯席委員會可以思考以附帶決議的方式我們刻意行政機關對於未來相關條文相關法律對於運動產業的相關組織要有更高強度的規管就像先行政後刑罰的方式來加以處理而不是只拘泥在21條的這些犯罪樣態的幫助犯而已我強調是這些如果是21條這些"},{"start":5247.566,"end":5254.07,"text":"犯罪樣態的幫助犯當然第四項可以省略他就直接用刑責方式來科處但是行政法對於運動"},{"start":5255.918,"end":5277.551,"text":"產業的組織經營者他不能夠放棄規管不能放棄行政處罰的強度所以你看我們原來的條文是訂多少訂到一千萬耶是訂到一千萬耶好所以我再請教育部在三四內建議我們聯席委員會可以思考剛剛署長所說的我們擬一個負債決議的方式來要求教育部要趕快的來從事後續的一個強化跟補強以上謝謝好那"},{"start":5282.062,"end":5287.544,"text":"我想這樣這21條我想大家對院版的文字就像我們這個螢幕看到的應該都沒有什麼太大的問題那如果這樣的話是不是這個文字上我們就用院版的來做通過好不好"},{"start":5302.79,"end":5316.18,"text":"至於剛剛嘉賓委員所提的我們等一下我們討論21條之一之後我們再來討論好不好因為其實嘉賓委員所說的都是所謂的運動產業的發展包括怎麼樣規範可是我們現在是在談運動彩券發行條例"},{"start":5324.486,"end":5333.211,"text":"那當然 沒問題 我覺得這個等一下可以討論啦 好不好那我們就21條就先這樣按照院版文字通過喔我們先把21條之一處理完"},{"start":5349.929,"end":5370.925,"text":"我觉得那个体育署要不要视你还是七七基本可以视你啦帮我们刚刚意见但是我还是觉得刚刚嘉宾所说的这部分我完全同意啊但是我还是觉得这样的附带决议或什么应该在运产条例的时候来做这样的一个处理而不是在运采的这个地方来做处理你觉得这样会不会可以"},{"start":5372.984,"end":5400.659,"text":"因為我們發現如果你後面的運產沒有基礎組織不健全你上面的運產運彩啊就會出毛病今天所有職業運動的敗壞都是因為經營階層的敗壞才會造成在賭博的部分造成了一個漏洞所以我們運彩條例的確本身我同意今天的條文上要放入這些內容對球團的規範等等是有未周延的地方但是"},{"start":5401.119,"end":5414.185,"text":"我是覺得在省今天的運產條例的同時我們就意識到運動產業的管理需要加強的那我們在運產的時候我們其實可以安排在運產條例我們還可以再做一些修正嗎接下來我們還有運動產業發行條例的修法我們那個時候說我們再來處理這件事情好不好"},{"start":5426.042,"end":5436.397,"text":"不行 那我們就做一個臨體啊也可以啊 做一個臨體 責成我們要教育部啊喔好 可以啊 用臨時提案的方式喔好 OK 好那我們再來就進行21條之一囉21條之一"},{"start":5443.786,"end":5443.926,"text":"21條之一"},{"start":5474.046,"end":5485.975,"text":"等19人蔡奕宇等18人林思敏等20人洪孟凱等16人林倩琦等19人陳素月等17人陳秀寶等24人"},{"start":5491.534,"end":5504.139,"text":"羅美玲等17人葉元芝等20人李柏毅等17人還有台灣民眾黨的版本好 那21條之一我們有委員要發言嗎好 從後面好 來 張雅玲"},{"start":5508.712,"end":5528.651,"text":"好 那我的版本其實基本上是跟院版一致啦那我們就是把過去的結果三人以上改成三人以上共同犯罪就是把過去沒有包括的同謀共同證犯包括含括進來所以這是我的版本 謝謝好 還有沒有其他委員要發言好 郭玉琴委員"},{"start":5531.101,"end":5553.655,"text":"這個條文就是解夥三人以上犯修正為三人以上共同犯那當然這個方向我覺得是正確的啦因為這樣子跟這個刑法規定上的一個基本犯罪的一個形式其實就用法是一致的也比較方便這個司法的一個實務的運用但是我是在想說換句話來講到底這個共同犯的構成的要件是什麼"},{"start":5554.355,"end":5575.6,"text":"那可以用這個司法的實務來區分比方說這個共同正犯跟從犯的時候其實他們所採用的是主客觀則依的一個標準那換句話來講只要主觀有共同犯罪的意圖那行為上是符合刑法構成的要件就算是共同正犯那有沒有可能會讓實務的標準變寬或者是說在整個執法的落差"},{"start":5581.221,"end":5608.978,"text":"可能就會從這個地方會出現這個部分我想是不是等一下請法務這邊來給我們一些方法以上好那本席在這個版本基本上也是跟原版一致就是把結果改成共同之外我覺得最大變數是變動是刪除最後一項那當然是主要考量到已經有刑事訴訟法跟刑法相關的處分可以運用"},{"start":5609.898,"end":5636.605,"text":"所以這裡就不用再另加規範那落實一事不二法的原則那同時也把刑事的處罰跟行政的處罰做出比較明確的區分啦我想這個也是院版的意思好 那體育署這邊有沒有要說明我們這件事情法務部這邊給我們一個指導過程要見的部分好 法務部汪參事好 主席各位委員各位先進大家好有關郭委員提問有這個共同正犯"},{"start":5638.188,"end":5664.077,"text":"共同正犯這個問題這次修法把解火三人改成三人共犯其實就是因為解火三人是必須是在場實施共同實施的這種因為過去的判決跟大法官會議解釋大概就是這個意思要在場參與分擔實行在場共同實施這個才叫解火解火犯罪那這個就不包含了共謀共同正犯但是事實上在我們運採條例這樣的一個犯罪樣態"},{"start":5666.198,"end":5682.451,"text":"同謀共同正犯他不在現場實施這種狀況其實反而是主謀比較嚴重是我們想要處罰的所以我們把它改成三人共犯這個是共同正犯他是以共同犯罪的意思來事先同謀把它納進來這樣子修改是有意義的而且我們"},{"start":5684.052,"end":5703.264,"text":"這幾年修法的體力也是這樣修包括我們103年有刑法有修正339條之四就是詐欺的也是這樣修然後112年處理302條之一就是那個防害自由的就是也是有這樣修三人共犯的所以是有符合修法的體力那剛剛委員是說會不會這個範圍過寬會不會把跟"},{"start":5707.866,"end":5721.331,"text":"對就是幫助犯跟共同正犯會不會覺得說這明明是共同正犯可能抓不到證據變成幫助犯這樣的一個樣態跟委員報告應該因為就過去的就修正跟判斷的經驗這個幫助犯他的"},{"start":5724.312,"end":5751.25,"text":"動機跟目的還有他的那個主觀要件是幫助他人犯罪的意思然後是構成要件以外的輔助行為這個委員也清楚那我們這個主觀到時候這個假官舉證還有蒐證的重點當然就是他主觀到底是同謀的犯意共犯的犯意共證犯的犯意還是幫助的犯意這個其實有很多客觀證據可以來做判斷那我們也要從這也沒辦法一概而論因為這必須是個案涉入的情形來斟酌判斷"},{"start":5754.292,"end":5779.646,"text":"過去的食物幫助販跟供販其實不會那麼難來區分所以以上可以跟委員說明一下好那如果法務部的說明大家都可以理解的話那是不是在21條之一也就來按照院版來通過好 文字上大家也可以再參照一下我們現在螢幕上的文字喔好 羅廷瑋"},{"start":5782.847,"end":5792.413,"text":"文字 文字可以再大一點嗎 謝謝喔 文字 集數大一點 呵呵呵謝謝 謝謝喔 阿捏 阿捏 阿捏 阿捏OK啦用演過度啊 好 謝謝資本也有啦 資本 不過 欸 對 OK好 那如果院版沒有問題 我們就按照院版通過齁再來還有最後 第29條就是 吳佩奕 吳佩奕等21人齁的版本齁那這個 呃"},{"start":5813.499,"end":5830.732,"text":"沛宜 沛宜委員要不要說明一下這原本是配合第二條如果主管機關改為運動部才有公佈時間的問題那第二條現在已經維持了嘛所以就沒有意見好 OK 那吳沛宜的條文就不予修正啦那我們就建議還是維持現行條文好 那我們這個剛剛"},{"start":5841.233,"end":5866.108,"text":"對 那去弄了齁那我是不是休息五分鐘 等那個他們寫完了嗎我們還有臨時提案我們還有今天議程的臨時提案耶非官 非官 非官非官運採條例的"},{"start":5869.841,"end":5871.885,"text":"那就休息五分鐘啦 OK OK OK"},{"start":6451.515,"end":6457.819,"text":"好那我們現在來處理臨時提案喔今天有委員提出臨時提案共三案來請宣讀"},{"start":6460.319,"end":6461.199,"text":"你可以大一點嗎"},{"start":6473.868,"end":6490.914,"text":"以至於開閉幕式各面向問題層出不窮自有靠北市運市壯運FB專業甚至超越賽事粉專狀況經查查本次賽事雖非體育署主辦但體育署投入認為術意之巨經常門5.5億資本門2.35億無論"},{"start":6494.415,"end":6508.207,"text":"是在資源使用或是未來國際賽會辦理體育署均有檢討與記錄之必要原此除參與主辦單位自身辦理之檢討會議外請體育署亦應就一定規模以上中央資源投入之賽會品質"},{"start":6509.628,"end":6515.435,"text":"要求以及非競技型國際賽會辦理之經驗記取於兩個月內召開檢討會議並公開會議記錄作為後續運動部、群民運動署、國際事務司與運動產業發展中心之業務參考提案人陳培宇、吳佩奕、張雅琳、郭育晴、林怡瑾、范雲"},{"start":6531.957,"end":6561.597,"text":"第二案案由在2017年體育改革之後體育署的有效監督與單向協會的良善治理始終是國民體育法修正目標的未竟之業然而一個健康的體育環境不應是讓選手對體制絕望而只能向體育署澄清體育署對單向協會的監理更不該是只能透過憎怒來讓社會感知自巴黎奧運後從李志凱、潘正宗"},{"start":6563.017,"end":6583.182,"text":"吳東寧以至於近期葉一田事件屢次發生於協會與選手間在黃金計畫執行上的各種爭議問題除了體育署第一時間對於各單項協會的指責與震怒一再上演的劇情顯見相關問題已非個案故主管機關也應思考在黃金計畫之整體申訴與應對制度上對體育署"},{"start":6587.423,"end":6608.956,"text":"與國訓中心作出系統性的檢討原此請教育部以上位機關角色於一個月內就院黃金計劃之執行申訴機制與相關附屬文件進行通盤檢討並向立法院教育總文化委員會提出書面說明提案人陳培瑜吳沛毅張雅玲郭玉琦柯志安羅廷偉林怡瑾劉書斌范雲"},{"start":6617.264,"end":6644.003,"text":"第三案 因應運動財捐方型條例修正對運動產業經營者及相關法輪團體等在假求防制賽事舞弊等事項之苛責及確保賽事公正性之義務體育署應盡訴於運動產業發展條例中研擬相關條文並於最近一次條文修正中以提案或修正動議方式提出提案人無配意"},{"start":6645.325,"end":6650.024,"text":"范雲,林怡瑾,柯志恩,張雅琳,郭育晴,劉淑斌,鍾嘉斌"},{"start":6651.192,"end":6675.984,"text":"先讀完畢好 三個案子我們從第一案開始那第一案有沒有委員要發言好 我們請柯志恩委員沒有 第一案我對後面半部我沒有意見因為大家是希望體育署未來在給予經費補助各方面當中能夠有更多的一個討論但是我覺得前面的這三行我覺得有點太針對了"},{"start":6677.605,"end":6691.957,"text":"因为你看重观体育状况成初状况然后如何我觉得这个部分对于真的主办单位大家都非常的一个辛苦了我觉得如果大家是希望能够责成是因为我们体育署未来再给予经费未来的这个部分能够给予更"},{"start":6693.138,"end":6710.253,"text":"更多的一個監督的話 我覺得這沒有問題可是前面有必要寫成這個樣子嗎對我個人來說的話 我覺得如果能夠稍微再措辭更和緩一點然後我們強化在查本次 雖然有體育組辦這個部分裡面 如果能夠更加那這樣起碼可以得到一個比較大的一個共識啦好 我們再來先請羅廷偉委員然後再來張雅玲 然後再來郭育晴 好"},{"start":6718.513,"end":6746.179,"text":"好這一個暗游呢也是希望就呼應到我們柯政委員所說的我是具體的建議是不是就是世界壯年運動會所以上週落幕然後就直接跳到查本次賽事這一段那是不是前面這三行能夠稍微做這樣子的微調那當然具體的其他的一些建議我們都支持那這個部分以供參考"},{"start":6748.593,"end":6771.479,"text":"我們請張二齡委員我想我們就事實來看我們應該回到事實我想現在的這個陳述的確是反映了這次市狀會舉辦的一些許多的問題例如四邊保險不打動這些非常荒謬的狀況甚至也有游泳選手都已經到了現場清晨四點到現場可是一直沒有辦法被點入"},{"start":6772.779,"end":6791.609,"text":"剪錄然後到最後等到找到他的名字的時候呢他卻已經比完賽了那甚至還有日本選手的棒球賽這邊打不到的我覺得這些都是非常嚴重的一些狀況也是過去賽事其實不應該出現的狀況那我覺得體育署應該要真的就是回應到我們現在提到的這些問題有縱觀整體賽會辦理狀況不斷我覺得這還是反映真實啦但是"},{"start":6797.492,"end":6825.99,"text":"所有台灣的民眾都非常清楚的一個現實的環境我覺得我們必須要如實呈現 謝謝好 那我們先請郭玉晴委員然後再來請范芸我個人覺得那個靠北市狀運FB專業甚至已經超越賽事粉專的一個狀況這個部分其實是事實層層數啦那我想前面也許第二句或者是在那個層數不窮這邊是可以修但是後面那個我想還是盡量保留啦"},{"start":6826.73,"end":6852.244,"text":"好 以上好 那范委員我是想說如果要做一點調整的話因為剛剛郭議員希望保存保留那個至有靠北市那個市莊院這個部分嘛那是不是就是說縱觀整體賽會辦理狀況問題層出不窮至有靠北市莊院FB等等就只要刪掉前面稍微簡短一點"},{"start":6853.902,"end":6881.657,"text":"不好意思您說刪掉哪一部分因為你剛剛的那個部分如果落幕之後就到查對不對那大家都知道落幕沒什麼事幹嘛要查對不對就是說至少應該保留上週落幕但中關整體賽會辦理狀況問題層出不窮就是中間刪掉那個行政賽務宣傳以至於那這樣至少聽起來減少一點那保留就是後面問題層出不窮自有靠北市專業FB專業甚至超越賽事粉專狀況句號"},{"start":6883.759,"end":6909.378,"text":"這樣子比較有個證據啊好那我們再來請提案人陳培瑜好謝謝主席我剛剛這樣聽起來我覺得大家對於那個我的描述有一點不滿意不過剛剛范議員最後那個結論我覺得蠻好的如果體育署跟在場委員都可以接受的話謝謝好那體育署要不要做一下說明就你們對這個版本要怎麼樣修改或者"},{"start":6913.271,"end":6941.138,"text":"那我們這邊建議就是前面就按照范雲委員的建議但是呢後面呢從第四行開始我們是可以稍微微調但體育署仍投入數億經費之補助那後面接著就是無論是在資源使用等等這樣OK好喔好那大家如果都沒有意見那我們就修正通過第一案"},{"start":6943.922,"end":6969.769,"text":"那個文字 大家這樣就不用再重念一次了好 理解力都很強第二案第二案有沒有人要發言陳培宇委員 提案人剛剛體育署有來溝通我想溝通的部分等一下請體育署自己公開發言但是我要講的是黃金計畫真的太多爭議的問題其實我們一直都有跟你們反映可是往往都是要鬧上新聞包含吳東霖他兩年的錢都沒有拿到"},{"start":6970.349,"end":6980.657,"text":"鬧上新聞之後你們體育署才說要分期撥付而這只是其中一個最為著名的例子那不管是潘正崇啊李志凱等等那當然體育署會說這個有協會中間的問題啊點點點但是我們要說黃金計劃竟然是之前很多立法委員積極爭取然後國家也有心"},{"start":6989.103,"end":7001.893,"text":"協助然後栽培這些選手我認為我們在所有後續行政的配套執行就應該要同步跟上真的沒有理由讓選手來承擔這些所以我們才提出這個臨時提案也謝謝所有簽名委員的支持謝謝"},{"start":7002.93,"end":7027.606,"text":"好 那我們先請郭玉琴委員然後再來張雅玲委員然後再來李坤澄委員 劉淑冰委員好 OK好 我就是 echo 一下那個裴宇委員說的我覺得黃金計畫它的本因應該是協助選手的一個發展但是現在因為有一些部分的體育的這個協會變成限制它的行動而且變成有點打壓的一個工具了那我想這個選手跟教練其實本來"},{"start":7028.587,"end":7038.292,"text":"以這個昨天的這個例子來講選手跟教練他本來就已經排定了三場的一個成人賽事要代表台灣去出戰這個國際但協會卻用所謂的義務的名義來扼殺更高層級的一個賽事的發展機會這其實是有必要被檢討的啦以上"},{"start":7046.411,"end":7073.67,"text":"好 那我們接下來請張雅玲委員好 那我想廷秀水非常清楚知道我一直非常關心黃金計畫那其實我認為這一次在我們我應該回到我們黃金計畫的目標就是希望協助我們這一些還在遇程階段的選手然後可以得到這個計畫的支持然後未來在一些我們重要的賽事像是奧會可以奪金這是當時最重要的一個目標所以我自己會認為我們現在在這個選手規約同意書裡面的第七條"},{"start":7074.531,"end":7103.391,"text":"我们好像是特定团体指定的赛事我认为这点可能有检讨的必要是指定的赛事还是指定成绩的赛事因为重点还是最终要达到目标要夺金所以我认为这是有非常多需要做检讨的那过去我也有收到选手跟我说他们在请款的时候被刁难所以我认为这个是非常我觉得在为了保全我们未来在身为这个运动部之后这样子的问题不要再一再的上演所以我"},{"start":7104.312,"end":7127.679,"text":"非常支持這個提案 謝謝好 我們再來請李坤城委員好 謝謝主席那當然就是說除了這個黃金計畫之外這個有關單向協會的問題又出現了上次我還記得在這邊就問有關這個足協的事情紐西蘭女足要來這邊比賽就發現說沒辦法有一個比賽場地能夠比賽當時候我們也是說用扣款的方式來做處理"},{"start":7128.559,"end":7149.588,"text":"然後現在又發生這個桌寫這件事情那我看署長處理也是蠻明快的就是說用這一個暫停補助的方式來做處理但是呢後來又發生說用暫停補助的方式來做處理的話那好像那一個陳其仁就是說包含這個伊田他們又有意見就是說會傷害到這個"},{"start":7150.658,"end":7151.859,"text":"我們再來請劉淑冰委員"},{"start":7173.162,"end":7200.199,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天所報出來的這個新聞是關於在這個叫做桌寫桌寫的葉伊田事件這部分有看出來是剛才有聽到的是署長有報告就是說這個部分大滿貫的這個賽其實更重要的因為它很涉及到這個在奧運上面的積分那所以可是這個這個桌寫他也提出來說這是因為"},{"start":7204.332,"end":7205.315,"text":"體育署它的規定是說"},{"start":7207.421,"end":7231.017,"text":"要規定包括的是 亞錦賽 世青還有說世界的賽 市錦賽等等都需要去一定要參加可是這部分 等於是依照於在體育署的這個規定所以這邊是不是 要請體育署要去做一個檢討這關於說 到底我們現在最重要的可能是一級的這種賽事包括是市錦賽或是奧運這部分他到底累積要積分去參賽資格這部分是不是應該以優先項目來做處理而且這不只是 應該對所有單項協會都做一個檢討"},{"start":7237.601,"end":7241.442,"text":"如果沒有做這樣的檢討的話現在是發生在桌協以後是不是在包括主婦協或其他的協會的與協的部分等等的是不是都會出現所以我想說這一個部分通通都要做這樣子的一個重要的檢討剛好這次的葉怡婷事件也讓我們凸顯出來這樣子的一個到底是什麼是合適合中而不是看起來是以國家為重可是更重要的是我們國家賽的選手就是要以選手為主"},{"start":7261.129,"end":7284.582,"text":"那你選手沒有進入到有這個積分進入到國際一級賽事的時候那絕對沒有辦法去代表國家去進一級賽的我想這個重點性要凸顯出來就提案的本身我看大家都非常非常的支持就文字上或剛剛委員提出一些意見是不是體育署這邊要做一些回應"},{"start":7286.139,"end":7314.814,"text":"請問召委我是針對法條針對臨時提案就好還是先針對提案的文字好了好不好臨時提案的部分我這邊建議是在第二段的第三行後面一再上演的劇情這部分是不是能夠刪除那再來是倒數第二行於一個月內舊黃金計劃執行部分是不是可以容許我們到兩個月因為當然這部分我們尊重委員的提案我們在"},{"start":7315.934,"end":7333.735,"text":"近期其實已經跟類像盧彥勳等等一些退役選手已經針對我們的環境計畫已經在做一個修正的討論那其實我這邊也要強調第一個體育署這邊不會去強迫選手一定要參加特定的賽事因為"},{"start":7334.475,"end":7359.998,"text":"第一個參加錦標賽是協會的權利並不是體育署的權利那針對高爾夫、桌魚網等職業化的選手呢我們最近也會進一步去做選訓的要求當選手成績已經達到可以追求更高成績的賽事的時候就不應該也不適合要求選手去參加成績較低的錦標賽事而是應該站在選手的立場去追求更高的成就那這部分呢我們"},{"start":7360.598,"end":7371.213,"text":"也在跟退役幾個職業的選手來共商是不是 還有包括奧惠是不是將政府的支持主力放在青年的育成這件事情他的選手過渡到職業的階段呢這部分來做一個支持"},{"start":7376.44,"end":7397.185,"text":"也就是說我們黃金計畫我們回歸他的精神是在育才這件事情我們希望幫助他在青年青少年要轉要轉到職業的階段這個部分大力支持而不是在他奪牌之後再去做錦上添花我想這個心態我們最近也做了很大的調整那最近我們也會依照委員的這個建議呢我們來做一個通盤的檢討 以上報告好 陳佩玉委員"},{"start":7403.22,"end":7419.432,"text":"好署長我們就對焦文字就好了供應您提到第二段到第三行倒數後面一再上演劇情顯現相關問題已非個案你希望這邊可以刪除是嗎是好如果這邊要刪除那我身為提案人那我就主張如果您堅持要刪除我會希望兩個月內"},{"start":7421.053,"end":7442.807,"text":"也許是可以接受但是不是就我可不可以拜託主席我們就排專案報告因為我認為相關事情確實是一再發生啦本於事實那我們站在協助選手也好或者是剛剛署長自己也說到其實署內也好或是國訓中心也好現在才開始有很多觀念的轉變而這些觀念轉變其實真的都是來自於所有上新聞的個案"},{"start":7443.767,"end":7472.435,"text":"如果体制内的大佬们都没有意识到这件事情对年轻选手的重要性屡屡要靠年轻选手自己发言自己澄清自己闹上的新闻才有积极改进是不是就让我拜托主席我们改成我可以接受那句话拿掉我可以接受但我希望两个月内是专案报告而不是书面报告也谢谢主席一直以来在担任民意代表路上还有所有委员都非常支持体育选手跟与体制的对话谢谢大家"},{"start":7473.595,"end":7499.015,"text":"好 謝謝佩玉的建議喔那可是七月有世大運所以可能要請體育署來做專案報告時間上美玉我們盡量來看六月有沒有機會各位委員喔 是這部分其實我們當然我們這樣好不好我們就我們隨時的進度我們來跟委員這邊來做一個進度上的報告因為我們這還是要跟國訓不只討論而且要經過國訓的董事會等等的程序"},{"start":7500.536,"end":7516.367,"text":"說實在時間蠻花時間但是以整個的規劃方向來做一個書面報告這部分我們是可以做得到那是不是也容許我們來我這邊來在七月中之前四三月之前親自到委員辦公室來做一個規劃上的一個進度報告好嗎"},{"start":7517.168,"end":7543.15,"text":"我快速回應署長好嗎 謝謝主席我認為今天不會只有我陳佩瑜關心今天所有在場的委員那包含會員委員會從性平的角度郭委員會從兒少的角度或者是選手權益的角度嘉賓委員剛剛發言也很多昆城委員私下也會找我討論很多體育的問題所以我認為不應該只有向陳佩瑜委員辦公室報告應該跟所有今天出席甚至是後續支持沒有啦 我叫我們工董 你不要這樣啦"},{"start":7544.671,"end":7561.518,"text":"支持所有體育選手還有張阿玲委員也是她自己的孩子都還是選手所以我要談的是可不可以不要只有跟陳培宇委員辦公室報告因為每一個人能夠切入的議題跟面向真的有限時間有限但因為綜合所有委員的關心我認為會有更多體育選手"},{"start":7564.219,"end":7585.447,"text":"接受到支持,所以我不知道大家怎麼看我們就擇期喔,召委再來協商適合的時間,那但是就是不是只跟陳培委員報告,就是來這邊專案報告,那擇期時間再來協商看什麼時候好不好?那我們就好,那我理解,可是我們就臨時提案的文字是不是還是維持兩個月提書面報告?"},{"start":7588.764,"end":7605.553,"text":"這個OK嗎 就兩個月的書面報告還是你要我是說如果是兩個月書面報告是OK的嘛那就是書面報告也有然後再來專案報告的部分我們可能就是擇期啦好不好 我們專案報告就擇期啦好不好 這樣子好好 那再加一個提出"},{"start":7630.772,"end":7639.202,"text":"這個文字如果要刪除的話那就要提專案報告那我就跟署長講那你就文字不要刪除啊那就書面報告就好了"},{"start":7641.021,"end":7662.299,"text":"好 對不起 趙委 我有一個程序上的錯誤剛剛我們黨團的同仁提醒我 謝謝我這樣好像逾越了委員的權責我不能規範你說一定要開專案報告 不好意思沒有 沒有 不會 不會 建議建議 建議 不好意思 不好意思所以 主席不好意思所以是不是怎麼樣調整是比較好的"},{"start":7664.297,"end":7682.251,"text":"這樣好不好這個臨庭上面我們還是寫兩個月書面報告啦那可是這個我心裡已經非常有有數了而且我本來對這個議題也很有概念所以這個排專報告這個我們就來擇其處理好不好"},{"start":7685.165,"end":7711.847,"text":"好 OK好 那我們第二個領體就這樣文字修正通過喔好 第三個有關於我們今天的這個運彩條例的臨時提案好 嘉賓委員好 主席 那我三個部分首先第一我支持那個提案委員也感謝吳佩儀委員的提案那我第一個部分先做一些文字的修正可以嗎好 那我就開始從第一行開始第一行呢最後團體等債"},{"start":7713.52,"end":7736.327,"text":"假求這兩個字拿掉然後保留防治然後頓號拿掉那整句話唸起來就是在防治賽事舞弊等事項這樣就包含了包括假求的內容了那再來是第三行這個運動產業發展條例等相關法令中研擬條文修正案"},{"start":7737.774,"end":7765.329,"text":"這裡面就是在運動產業發展條例後面加上等相關法令然後中研擬把相關拿掉條文修正案並於最近一次條文修正中以提案或修正動議方式提出所以第一個我對於這個文字上的一些建議第二個我還是要提醒一下教育部或未來的運動部我大家跟他請教一下你們知道公事法是哪個部會主管的嗎是經濟部"},{"start":7767.657,"end":7784.527,"text":"但是上市櫃公司它的法令規範在哪裡嗎規範在政交法所以大家一直以為運動彩券發行條例跟運動產業發展條例它是兩件事情它其實不是兩件它是層次的事情"},{"start":7785.367,"end":7800.756,"text":"一般的公司未達公開發行的階段的就是公司法去處理但是到了公發公司之後他就跑到證交法去處理為什麼一個證券交易法可以規範所有的上市位公司因為這些上市位公司的資金是來自於大眾市場"},{"start":7801.696,"end":7819.442,"text":"所以才會變成是由證券交易的相關衍生包括所謂的內線交易包括所謂的關係人交易包括所謂的內機內控包括所謂的資訊接入都會是在證交法裡面規定的所以當我們去思考說運動產業發展過程當中運動產業發展相當多範疇但是最Top的那幾個上位的就是職業運動的球團它就會落在運動彩券發展條例裡面來規範"},{"start":7831.22,"end":7846.389,"text":"因為運動產業那麼多運動才要發展包括我們社區的兒童足球都是啊那需要用運動產業發展條例就夠啦但是他會跑到運動彩券發行呢不會沒有人會在社區的幼兒足球去什麼去投注啊"},{"start":7847.372,"end":7871.67,"text":"但是你一旦是有到了一個職業運動有公開發行彩券的階段的時候它就相當於我們的上市會公司它是公開的發行股票接受資金的那當然要提升到運動彩券發行條例啊所以我們才說大家一直以為21條跟21條之一好像我們談的是球團的經營管理其實它就是因為運動產業發展到職業運動階段到可以發行運動彩券階段"},{"start":7876.233,"end":7898.365,"text":"這些主席式的組織他必須跟接受更高的規管所以呢我才剛剛說署長啊還有我們的這個幾位委員的提議呢我沒有很堅持但是第三個部分我要說的是如果這個臨時提案主席如果可以考量召委可以考量的話在剛剛的運動產業發展條例前面加上四個字叫做本條例或"},{"start":7899.266,"end":7920.186,"text":"也就是說今天它不會是一個今天委員會的臨時提案我今天能夠來這裡參與臨時提案是因為我是財政委員會但是我不會去參與運動產業發展條例的委員會審查因為它是在教文委員審查但是為什麼今天運動財券發展條例要找財政來聯席就是因為這個財券的發行動用到大眾的資金"},{"start":7921.107,"end":7936.853,"text":"所以財委會才要來參與我們才貢獻了一些包括政交法公司法這些區隔的思維我們希望能夠在教育部既有的運動產業發展條例之上去思考到所謂的最top的最上面的這些大型的職業運動的組織他有能力去參與到運動彩券發行的這個組織他必須在這個條例裡面接受更高的規管"},{"start":7943.715,"end":7965.93,"text":"所以呢如果主席允許的話這個臨時提案也可以變成21條或21條之一的附帶決議只要前面加上本條例或那作為這樣的一個附帶決議放在條文裡面大家就知道未來我們的運動彩券發行條例還是有待去修整不是說這一次呢因為大家知道很急切我們希望呢趕快去阻止打假球所以21條對於這個脅迫啦強暴啦炸毒啦要趕快遏止用刑責來遏止這我都同意"},{"start":7972.054,"end":7992.135,"text":"但是這樣的一個經營環境會造成球員跟這個主頭去掛鉤他其實就是這個最高層次職業運動產業這個球團或者這個組織本身他的腐化他的管理的疏失才會造成的所以我剛剛在談的很多的事情是說他不見得要去參與到幫助強暴脅迫詐欺的行為"},{"start":7995.785,"end":8016.185,"text":"在我們政交法當中所謂的關係人交易所謂的相關資訊介入所謂的內機內控都沒有預設這些大型監控公司的負責人參與到他的所謂的賭博詐欺或者是說詐騙行為 沒有但是一個疏於管理就足以叫他要罰款了所以我再提醒一次像我們現在還在研擬什麼融資公司法"},{"start":8017.086,"end":8034.211,"text":"因為有的銀行法不夠啊 還要管融資公司啊為什麼 融資公司現在是公司法在規範 是在經濟部啊所以有人主張說要訂個融資公司法 抓來給金管會管為什麼 因為它涉及到很多大眾的資金 很多的詐欺的問題那至於融資公司法要不要制定 那是另一件事情但是我是覺得還是強烈的建議呢今天我們在審查運動財政發展條例第21條跟21條之一的時候它的附帶決要清楚的指出"},{"start":8041.373,"end":8044.914,"text":"這些最上層的最高層的職業運動組織本身它附有保障這個運動彩券在發行過程當中球團或組織的經營管理必須盡到它嚴格的內機內控跟相關資訊介入以及防止交易防止關係人涉及的這些條款當中不能只是去靠一個說去規範組頭啦規範球員啦"},{"start":8066.658,"end":8074.624,"text":"規範這些實際有暴力或實際犯罪行為的人其他的這些內線交易也是我就不用再講了日本的一些職業運動的醜聞是怎麼來的就是因為關係人的問題關係人沒有介入所以他才會被當作醜聞來處理"},{"start":8082.389,"end":8085.192,"text":"那我們當然不希望未來運動財券發行跑出的這些醜聞我們希望在這個條例的修正當中至少不是今天至少留著附帶決議要求我們這個法條呢要再繼續的嚴格規範那懇請我們聯席委員會支持把這個臨時提案呢能夠提列為二十一條的附帶決議以上"},{"start":8102.486,"end":8122.079,"text":"好 那提議書我這邊只有一個意見就是其實我尊重委員們的那個想法不過因為我們院版最近才剛通過這我就說是不是可以把最近一次這四個字刪了可能半年內或是說一年內以提案修正適當時機適當時機並於適當時機提條文修正 謝謝適當時機好"},{"start":8143.296,"end":8159.25,"text":"一個文字我請教一下剛剛我聽那個嘉賓委員講說法輪團體等在防制賽事舞弊這邊是不是我問一下防制的字是這個字還是防制的另外一個制定的字都可以嗎"},{"start":8164.235,"end":8169.697,"text":"制定的制吧 應該是這個吧制服的制 對對對以上防制制服的制喔制服的制 好好 OK好 那我們這個臨時提案就改成附帶決議第21條的附帶決議那我再念一下好了啦來 因應運動彩券發行條例修正"},{"start":8193.223,"end":8211.596,"text":"對運動產業經營者及相關法人、團體等在防制賽事舞弊等事項之苛責及確保賽事之公正性之義務體育署應禁訴於本條例或運動產業發展條例"},{"start":8215.478,"end":8222.743,"text":"等法令中原理相關條文修正並於適當時機以提案或修正動議方式提出OK 好OK 好 好 那就這樣子那我們這個21條附帶決議就修正通過"},{"start":8243.439,"end":8265.876,"text":"好 那個題案如果委員要補簽的請到我們議事人員那邊來補簽 然後可以詳細登載在議事錄今天的審查結果 我們就免於重複宣讀在不影響條文文藝的前提下文字 條字跟標語符號為統一體制授權議事人員修改列入紀錄 未予採納條文授權議事人員確認"},{"start":8269.984,"end":8284.976,"text":"關於今天會議做如下決議對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆運動採訊發行條例全部審查完略請問是否交黨團協商"},{"start":8287.037,"end":8306.363,"text":"不須交由黨團協商並按拟據審查報告提請院會討論院會討論時由林昭集委員以儘補充說明本次會議議事錄授權主席確認後及上傳立法院全球資訊網公開報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":8313.683,"end":8314.144,"text":"謝謝蘇冰委員 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因為我們時間比較短 本席有請司法院副秘書長副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他 行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長 還有廉政署署長 權敘部的司長"},{"start":31.09,"end":39.061,"text":"以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委麻煩人事行政總署專委上台 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":45.234,"end":62.181,"text":"首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職"},{"start":65.648,"end":85.922,"text":"本席手上看到大家的報告 很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署 就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語 中間大概就是直接把整個的"},{"start":87.063,"end":104.851,"text":"今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理那本席在這裡要先講就是說人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位他都有職責"},{"start":105.791,"end":132.669,"text":"不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先呢我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效"},{"start":134.31,"end":152.257,"text":"我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次那從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元"},{"start":154.718,"end":167.328,"text":"那從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職那所以我們想要了解就是說"},{"start":169.877,"end":193.854,"text":"這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊"},{"start":199.028,"end":226.312,"text":"如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也 你的制度 制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你 廉政署是不是好 簡單說 因為我時間有限"},{"start":234.106,"end":256.779,"text":"做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標你說哪一年訂的98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪這四個目標然後再來有九個策略"},{"start":257.299,"end":281.664,"text":"那在這個策略之中我們每年會針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種"},{"start":286.505,"end":304.872,"text":"你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說我們現在的一個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分"},{"start":313.895,"end":339.849,"text":"去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那"},{"start":341.15,"end":362.165,"text":"所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好在給我們一個啟發所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究"},{"start":363.066,"end":383.751,"text":"今天哪些單位有 今天站在這裡 我請教啦你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些房攤或者是包含你的業務 你有用AI來做這種科技上的你是可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做"},{"start":386.732,"end":409.069,"text":"有嗎 只有法務部 其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係 接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問 包含司法院 包含法務部 廉政署 包含權序部我們在制度設計上 我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業"},{"start":410.43,"end":421.204,"text":"人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來"},{"start":424.58,"end":440.617,"text":"獨立的跟委員報告 素攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前你任署的正確性大概是沒有啦 你就我的問題回答有沒有 我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做聯聖審查會"},{"start":442.379,"end":454.622,"text":"那個廉政審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會結案"},{"start":455.171,"end":472.182,"text":"你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查"},{"start":475.667,"end":495.189,"text":"最後我們看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有"},{"start":497.072,"end":507.409,"text":"這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎"},{"start":507.984,"end":525.729,"text":"以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎"},{"start":537.113,"end":559.725,"text":"我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養"},{"start":561.074,"end":580.356,"text":"所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的"},{"start":581.116,"end":600.743,"text":"最後我要請教 因為整個單位的風氣 包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行朝野 風行朝野 上行下效我想請教最後 我請法務部長好了風行朝野 上行下效 我想請教您"},{"start":604.464,"end":613.428,"text":"您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門"},{"start":614.469,"end":633.325,"text":"就陳如如委員我想指證疏感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種"},{"start":637.055,"end":644.147,"text":"這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看"},{"start":645.95,"end":675.59,"text":"我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有 我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣 有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊"},{"start":678.442,"end":693.83,"text":"這我想這個我們或是你你平常對帶領你的部署你怎麼跟他們說我叫證人要正級證人要正級我們是執法單位我們的證人要正級嘛那法務部其實所屬的都是屬於這個他們就是一個"},{"start":695.271,"end":717.209,"text":"辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策房攤政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要"},{"start":721.733,"end":746.386,"text":"這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望反正很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講說反射擊不反患不分黨派勿妄勿縱嘛"},{"start":748.151,"end":761.485,"text":"我是說青年嘛青年的部分呢我想我們一起全面努力這個包括公部門、私部門因為我跟文報告那個貪腐的問題從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐那個都要解決"},{"start":770.495,"end":793.83,"text":"那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體"},{"start":795.011,"end":813.078,"text":"當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時21分）謝謝主席，因為我們時間比較短，本席有請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長另有要務。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那誰代理他？"],["主席：廳長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：刑事廳的廳長，好。還有法務部部長、廉政署署長、銓敘部的司長，以及保訓會的專門委員，還有人事行政總處專委。"],["主席：麻煩請部長、署長、司長、保訓會專委、人事行政總處專委上臺，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：首先，我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣一個專案報告，我們大家都很關心，其實全國民眾更關心，我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府，而且有效的防制公務員瀆職。本席看到大家的報告，很多都是空泛的詞彙，最嚴重的是人事行政總處，就是不到一頁，去掉問候跟結語，中間大概就是直接把整個內容推給廉政署，再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理。本席在這裡要先講，人事行政總處或任何一個單位的公務人員，對於清廉的政府都有職責，不是說人事行政總處只是負責好像寫卡片，我記錄，絕對不是，所以在這裡，我特別針對人事行政總處。您可以先回座了，後面的你就坐在底下聽。","首先，我們看到大家的報告，但是我們想要的是什麼？全民想要的是具體的行動，還有明確的責任歸屬，以及我們看得到成效。我們手上有一個數據也是司法院提供的，從98年到現在，地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次、30,264罪次；從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元。從這些數據，難道我們還沒有發現所面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎？系統性貪污或系統性瀆職。","所以我們想要了解，大家都知道預防勝於治療，但如果預防不了，那就要積極治療。預防就是防貪，治療就是肅貪，我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防貪、肅貪，接著再防貪，所以我們怎麼樣有效預防，哪一個單位有效地回答我一下？有效預防不是口頭說說，如何有效預防，至少讓所有公務員覺得他絕對不能……就是你的制度設計要讓他覺得做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價，所以不該做。我們在預防方面，有沒有哪一個單位、哪一位今天在場的，你覺得你……廉政署是不是？好，簡單說，因為我時間有限。"],["馮署長成：跟委員講，在98年的時候，國家廉政建設啟動方案，到113年也有在做這方面的調整。針對國家廉政建設，其中我們的四大目標……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說哪一年訂的？"],["馮署長成：98年的一個行政指標，到113年有修正。其中的四大目標部分，就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的，它有四大目標，就是不願貪、不必貪、不能貪、不敢貪這四個目標。再來有九個策略，在這個策略之中，我們每年會針對國家廉政建設的地方做目標的追蹤，但現在跟委員報告，今年度已經出來，目前有94到95個部分是完成的，跟委員做這樣的說明。","至於防貪的這部分，現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸，從100年7月20日到現在是14年，一開始是肅貪跟防貪並重，現在已經到七成。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你直接講重點，防貪制度設計有什麼你覺得值得拿出來說的？"],["馮署長成：剛剛那個AI部分先不提，我們目前最主要推的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：AI該提，等一下我也要問。"],["馮署長成：好，我們有一個機關採購廉政平臺，跟各個檢察機關、調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平臺，針對重大的機關採購部分，阻擋外力介入。在這樣的過程之中，我們目前針對重大工程中……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你講到採購，我請教，重大工程的採購最容易出問題，你們有沒有那種預警模式，包含用AI？現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI，它想辦法，它有辦法去找，會找出來。所以我就一起問，AI，還有你有沒有一種預警模式？你要預防，你就要預警。"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，我們一向都在注意這一塊，委員提到的審計部裡面，其實我要稱讚審計部確實做得很好，也給我們一個啟發，所以我們現在開始也針對AI生成這個地方做更防貪的前端研究……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在哪些單位有？今天站在這裡，我請教，你的單位已經開始著手要用AI去做一些防貪，包含你的業務，你有用AI做這種科技上的、你可以事先找到或事先預防的請舉手，哪個單位有在做了，有嗎？"],["馮署長成：對，我們有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：只有法務部？"],["馮署長成：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：其他的就要再加強。因為時間的關係，接下來，防貪之外，肅貪也很重要，我們看到都是自己人查自己人。請問包含司法院、法務部廉政署，包含銓敘部，在制度設計上，我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業人士進行調查，而不是自己人查自己人？我怎麼知道你有沒有官官相護或者是怎麼樣！這一塊有沒有可能進行？專業的會計師、律師獨立地……"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，肅貪的部分目前我們都會要求正確性，目前廉政署的正確性大概是94%。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就我的問題回答，有沒有？我們有沒有這樣的制度，引入外部獨立的專業人士進行？"],["馮署長成：我們有一個會叫做廉政審查會，就是針對案件如果要結，哪裡還有不足之處，我們有請各單位的專家跟外邊的委員，要一起認同這個案子查到他們都覺得已經OK了，我們才會結案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：各單位的專家？我剛剛聽到「各單位的專家」還是自己人喔！"],["馮署長成：有工程會，也有外界的學者，不是我們自己人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔！是外界。"],["馮署長成：對，外界的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是……"],["馮署長成：不是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：外界的單位。"],["馮署長成：外界的，有來自於各地的一些學者、各領域的學者，還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的審查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。最後，我們看到新興科技日新月異，除了AI來預防之外，我們知道現在也有很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的，包含其他可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊。我們是不是也有針對這個部分進行風險評估，或者是包括查緝單位，你有沒有……你不能用傳統的方式去查，你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎？"],["馮署長成：以廉政署的作法來說明，跟委員講，我們目前在財產申報之中，之前的一部分已經把虛擬貨幣列入其中要申報的一個項目。我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有辦相關的、跟肅貪這邊去辦一些課程。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的問題具體是，針對現在的新興科技，包含虛擬貨幣這個部分，如果發現跟虛擬貨幣有關，我們現在有沒有緝查能力？"],["馮署長成：我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會有這方面的查緝能力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：都怎麼樣？"],["馮署長成：我們當然會有查緝能力，我們針對目前的虛擬貨幣，當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較要精進的，但是我們已經有注意到這一塊，也會朝這個方向去做我們人員在這方面能力的培養。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，質詢時間很短，但我們希望能夠日見成效，而不是讓國人都一直看到的是，現在臺灣民眾都認為貪污是理所當然的，其實這是最不好的。","最後我要請教，整個單位的風氣，包括全臺灣，我們是不是一個清廉的政府？人家說風行草偃，上行下效。最後我請法務部長好了，風行草偃，上行下效，我想請教您，您的長官或者是您自己，平常你們用怎麼樣的身教、言教帶領整個公部門？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就誠如委員所說，我想「子帥以正，孰敢不正？」風行草偃……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我具體一點，不知道我們現在的領導者，從上到下，從總統府、行政院一直到各部會再往下，到底有沒有我們就是要清廉政府的這種帶領、這種風氣營造，包含這些領導者的言行，甚至他的身教，有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想以法務部的立場，我們就是重視預防。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我要聽具體的，你上任一年多以來，不管是賴總統或卓院長，有什麼具體的跟大家耳提面命，或是怎麼樣具體的作法帶著大家要這樣子，有沒有？我想聽一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調清廉執政，這個是大家全力來落實。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我還是沒聽到他講過什麼，你有印象的啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個我們依法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：或是你，你平常帶領你的部屬，你怎麼跟他們說？"],["鄭部長銘謙：正人要正己。我們是執法單位，正人要正己。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：法務部及所屬有偵辦犯罪案的重要職掌，也有一些肅貪政策、防貪政策，我想我們就全力推動。我跟委員報告，清廉印象指數我們一直在進步，去年這一年我們的清廉印象指數在國際上是25……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不要老是用表面的數據。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是表面，是國際公認的，這個就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：民眾的感受比較重要。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個是國際公認。民眾對我們政府的期望是很高的，我們非常清楚。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你覺得民眾期望太高了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，民眾的期望本來就很高……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您是去年才就任，你有沒有聽過，賴政府上來之後，賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別……"],["鄭部長銘謙：賴總統有講嘛！凡涉及不法犯罪，不分黨派勿枉勿縱嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說清廉。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：清廉的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那這個清廉，我想我們一起全面努力，這個包括公部門、私部門一起來努力。我跟委員報告，貪腐的問題，從聯合國反貪腐公約以及國際的這些透明組織，他們認為公部門的貪腐跟私部門的貪腐都要解決。我們國家整個清廉在國際的公評上，我們CPI指數是一直在增加，去年我們就進步了3名，我們67分，進步了3名，很多先進國家還在我們的後面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！我想聽的都沒聽到。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在亞太地區是第7名，我想媒體……"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好啦！當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現，我們當然還是要肯定大家，但是我的問題是，我想知道平常到底我們整個氛圍、整個行政團隊的氛圍……沒關係，因為時間的關係，您講那麼多，我還是沒聽到我要的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員詢問時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員林倩綺所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162122","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9e961a365058b327ba52232a9b15fab92f3a9c8b26d91a1e234cbb1eeebf50ae7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":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不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来因为今天刚好我副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长"},{"start":69.581,"end":89,"text":"聽到了他回去就可以交辦那麼當然專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以"},{"start":89.94,"end":102.907,"text":"獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿"},{"start":106.547,"end":126.927,"text":"不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個"},{"start":133.362,"end":153.992,"text":"對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字"},{"start":158.905,"end":164.459,"text":"粉絲在這裡是要批評人總不能這麼草率"},{"start":166.604,"end":185.531,"text":"有關於防灘樹灘的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個公園的廉政與服務倫理"},{"start":189.953,"end":200.062,"text":"課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515"},{"start":205.686,"end":211.188,"text":"好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長"},{"start":233.434,"end":244.88,"text":"我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例"},{"start":248.945,"end":272.641,"text":"好 謝謝我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充 謝謝好 那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情辦得可真快辦得可真勤快應該這麼說很勤快一波接一波的"},{"start":279.205,"end":306.421,"text":"拿來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是房攤宿攤的這個"},{"start":308.682,"end":337.325,"text":"這個宣導啊 教育訓練等等都應該要加強對 而不是 都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好 那也請你回去要轉告人事長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到"},{"start":338.627,"end":346.266,"text":"3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪"},{"start":347.582,"end":376.482,"text":"其實就人種的部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都撥那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去了解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水"},{"start":377.863,"end":398.198,"text":"政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係"},{"start":399.879,"end":413.053,"text":"人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長"},{"start":420.08,"end":436.274,"text":"好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本系有發現"},{"start":437.898,"end":460.473,"text":"廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的"},{"start":462.43,"end":481.148,"text":"數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向"},{"start":481.969,"end":495.084,"text":"背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解"},{"start":495.711,"end":512.894,"text":"好我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是"},{"start":514.516,"end":520.7,"text":"因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎"},{"start":530.886,"end":547.937,"text":"對那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子"},{"start":548.764,"end":573.329,"text":"事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風市這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個"},{"start":574.53,"end":582.218,"text":"這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查"},{"start":583.683,"end":607.294,"text":"好 那麼至於秘書長呢 因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料我們都會全力配合不是 你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給"},{"start":610.816,"end":632.945,"text":"給地檢署對不對 這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們有一開始我們也有要求政鋒去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政鋒室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況"},{"start":634.266,"end":657.232,"text":"基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接移給地檢署"},{"start":657.692,"end":672.696,"text":"所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告"},{"start":675.041,"end":693.002,"text":"不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛所以不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要"},{"start":693.322,"end":722.642,"text":"其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們政風室的角色是什麼"},{"start":723.542,"end":741.606,"text":"就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分"},{"start":742.026,"end":752.368,"text":"我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們這封臉證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況"},{"start":763.131,"end":788.457,"text":"我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長"},{"start":794.623,"end":809.314,"text":"李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況"},{"start":820.444,"end":845.157,"text":"在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好OK 那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎"},{"start":846.823,"end":866.587,"text":"因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核"},{"start":874.608,"end":899.589,"text":"那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案"},{"start":900.49,"end":911.091,"text":"那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審"},{"start":912.455,"end":932.923,"text":"那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費這個審計部要怎麼處理"},{"start":936.83,"end":953.3,"text":"各位報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個權宜的處理"},{"start":955.515,"end":961.098,"text":"行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算已經通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回"},{"start":982.05,"end":996.082,"text":"給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對 那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎"},{"start":1003.736,"end":1004.217,"text":"根據行政會移過來的總預算"},{"start":1034.318,"end":1045.298,"text":"對所以之後有變更如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了那之後這個錢要追回來嗎"},{"start":1046.661,"end":1072.828,"text":"這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說就是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來"},{"start":1074.093,"end":1078.355,"text":"怎麼討回來 我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告 可以嗎"},{"start":1085.731,"end":1090.654,"text":"就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的"},{"start":1115.267,"end":1133.478,"text":"預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的地方給委員參考"},{"start":1143.423,"end":1158.87,"text":"但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考"},{"start":1159.77,"end":1187.231,"text":"好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部庭的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供是是"},{"start":1188.034,"end":1191.554,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝召委 謝謝那下一位我們請徐欣穎委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":936,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時1分）首先有請人總的江專委，還有馮署長，我待會再請馮署長，我先請教江專委。"],["主席：好，麻煩專委。"],["江專門委員美芳：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：專委好。我想請教一下，今天人事長怎麼沒有來？不知道？"],["江專門委員美芳：人事長應該另有……"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長沒有來，然後副人事長也沒來？"],["江專門委員美芳：因為我們今天副人事長剛好是人事交接，新的……"],["翁委員曉玲：副人事長交接？"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，總之我希望以後司法及法制委員會議至少還是有副首長以上的層級出席，這樣的話，我們在質詢的時候，首長跟副首長直接聽到了，他回去就可以交辦。"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：當然今天專委來，我這裡還是要跟你們先講幾件事情，首先其實本席要強調，我每一次都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告，因為我覺得從閱讀這些專案報告可以獲得很多的資訊，同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題，但是本席今天對人總所提出的報告非常、非常不滿，不知道專委有看到你們今天的報告嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：是專委你寫的嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：是經過人事長核定的嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：我們有簽准。"],["翁委員曉玲：1頁，就這1頁，我幫你算了字，裡面212個字，扣除對本委員會所講的，說今天要報告什麼內容等等，你們真正跟今天主題有關的就只有一句話，是哪一句話呢？「有關廉政的落實及瀆職之防制，本總處尊重法制主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理」，總共就這38個字。本席在這裡要批評，人總不能這麼草率，有關於防貪、肅貪的宣導，還有相關的教育訓練，難道人總不該做嗎？你們過去都沒有做嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是，跟委員補充說明一下。其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候，我們人總有就……因為我們已經在……我之前有說明過，我們從106年起，就將公務員的廉政與服務倫理課程納入公務員每年應該完成的學習時數。之前莊委員有質詢到這一塊，我有說明我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515個。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，那就謝謝專委。這個可以知道其實人總是有做事，並不是沒有做事，你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率？你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課，或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容，也可以整理出來。"],["江專門委員美芳：是，委員的寶貴意見……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，我認為你們這樣的作法，基本上就是敷衍了事，藐視我們司法及法制委員會。麻煩請你回去轉告人事長。"],["江專門委員美芳：是，謝謝委員的寶貴意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的，我也要求你們一個禮拜之內，重新提報一份完整的專案報告，是不是可以麻煩召委同意？"],["主席：好，那麻煩依照辦理。"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝。我們會把所辦理有關廉政與服務倫理相關訓練的辦理情形，納入書面報告再補充，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就麻煩一個禮拜之內交妥。我在這邊其實很感慨的是人總在這段時間裡面，配合陸委會清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件等等的事情，辦得可真快，辦得可真勤快，應該這麼說，很勤快，一波接一波的，清查公教人員有沒有大陸的證件。但是這樣子的清查方式，到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助？實際上對於清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助？我這裡是大打問號。不過既然你們做了也就做了，但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人總該做的，不要捨本逐末，對於像是防貪、肅貪的宣導、教育訓練等等，都應該要加強，而不是都配合陸委會盡搞一些意識形態的事情，也請你回去要轉告人事長。"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來再問一下，關於今年公務人員3%的調薪，行政院說5月就可以發放，可是最近看到新聞報導，還有在網路社群平臺上面，還是有一些公務員反映沒有收到3%的調薪。請問人總有沒有去瞭解，是不是現在每個單位實際上都已經有發放加薪的薪資？"],["江專門委員美芳：其實人總就調薪的部分都已經撥了，至於其他機關的部分，因為不是我主管業務處的業務，這部分我會回去瞭解，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這個再麻煩你們，也是一個禮拜之內，把目前整個核發的狀況，到底哪些機關還沒有完成？也請你提供一份資料給本席。不要忘記這是涉及公務人員的薪水，政府沒有按時發，這就是抑留剋扣了，這個可能都觸犯刑法第一百二十九條的罪。我上次就已經講了，公務員很倒楣，軍公教人員很倒楣，因為我們的雇主是政府，所以薪水慢發、遲發加薪，該發的不發好像都沒有關係。人總這方面要盯緊一點，不要慢吞吞的，希望專委回去可以報告人事長，這些事情都要積極地處理。好，謝謝專委。"],["江專門委員美芳：好的。謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我想請署長。","好，在這裡請教署長，我們知道最近發生了監察院濫用公務車的諸多事件，引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有界限的諸多討論。本席發現廉政署事實上之前曾經做過廉政指引手冊，在廉政指引手冊裡面，列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例。我請教廉政署，據你們統計，到底近年來有多少不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的？"],["馮署長成：數字的部分，可能我會後再跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為我今天看到廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面。好，那麻煩請你們要提供給我們，大概有幾百件嗎？還是沒有那麼多？"],["馮署長成：沒有去統計，因為廉政署針對自己的部分，在公務車這一塊是屬於比較偏向背信罪跟侵占罪，我們負責的是貪污治罪條例的工作，可能有一些公務車適用的部分會是別的機關在辦的，所以沒有這個數據，我們會後會去瞭解。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明，包含可能涉及公務員登載不實還有背信，甚至可能是涉及詐欺等等，你們自己的案例上面都有。我建議廉政署在這方面要多去宣導，好不好？因為你們自己的手冊都有，但是看起來可能很多公務員或是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況，所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做，對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎？"],["馮署長成：好，是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我們也曉得，現在監察院既然發生這個事情，請問廉政署有瞭解監察院的政風室有沒有啟動調查這些案子嗎？"],["馮署長成：事件發生以後，我們有跟監察院的政風室去聯繫，廉政已經有要求政風主任也要跟他們……因為他們目前等於算是自律規範後有啟動一個紀律委員會，針對這幾位委員的事件，他們已經有開始調查，如果有任何的行政不法都會去處理，我們也有要求政風在這件事情上，務必要配合檢方跟紀律委員會協助調查。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，至於秘書長呢？因為秘書長的問題可能不是在監察委員的紀律委員會裡面，那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理？"],["馮署長成：在秘書長的部分，他的案件也是在北檢，至於相關上面來講，我們會看北檢的偵查狀況，有需要政風提供資料都會全力配合。"],["翁委員曉玲：不是政風也應該要積極主動去處理嗎？然後提供一些相關的事證給地檢署，對不對？這怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客，然後法務部才是……"],["馮署長成：是，我知道委員的意思。不會，我們一開始也有要求政風去做相關的瞭解，只要有任何的部分，我們也會提供給檢方處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼時候可以提出你們政風室的報告？針對監察院秘書長和監察委員涉嫌公器私用，濫用公務車的情況。"],["馮署長成：基本上，監察院行政報告的行政調查之發起權，是由機關首長來做，我們只能指導，我們有請他們在政風這一塊如果有不法……跟委員報告，其實廉政署的政風如果察覺有不法，它分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件，關於貪瀆案件會移給廉政署，一般不法就直接移給地檢署。所以在這個部分上，北檢已經在偵辦，他只要有什麼資料，提供給北檢處理就可以了。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你剛剛的意思是說，必須由監察院的副院長主動同意把政風的報告……"],["馮署長成：不論他們機關有沒有在做行政調查，但是我覺得政風的部分在法遵這一塊就是要做好，只要有……"],["翁委員曉玲：就是不管副院長……因為現在監察院的院長請假，所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上有這個義務去啟動調查，政風也要從旁協助。"],["馮署長成：其實副院長已經有在紀律委員會中做這件事情，我相信監察院內部會有一個作為。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我要講的就是紀律委員會，依照監察委員的自律規範，有一定的程序要送紀律委員會，接下來如果查到有相關違法情事的話，就依法彈劾，或者是要依法送審辦。我只是想說在這個事情裡面，你們監察院政風室的角色是什麼？"],["馮署長成：政風室一樣也會依照我們頒的廉政工作手冊，在法遵的這一塊上去注意。如果有任何違法的部分，一樣是照我剛剛講的，移給檢方或移給廉政署處理，所以委員放心，我們在這個部分已經有叮嚀政風的部分去處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我現在只是想要了解，你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給立法院，或者以後也可以再做個專案報告，專門針對這種公務車濫用的情況？你們廉政署可以整個通盤提出一個有關於近五年機關濫用公務車的狀況。"],["馮署長成：我們會再去盤點，然後針對公車私用這一部分的防貪指引，我們會再做新的研議，也會提供給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就麻煩你們，有關於盤點的部分，請你們大概一個月之內提供給我們。"],["馮署長成：我們儘速，好嗎？因為我不曉得量有多少，所以我們保證儘速跟委員說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝署長。","最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：李副審計長，您好。我在這裡很快就兩個問題請教，第一個就是監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的油費是他們自己出的，請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎？還是說他們只是先代墊，之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢？"],["李副審計長順保：因為審計是事後審計，當然我們監察院有這樣的說明，我們也會去了解最後實際核銷的情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：在過去曾經有監察委員自掏腰包代墊油錢的嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：就我所了解，114年度比較特殊，過去應該不用這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望這個部分之後審計單位要了解。還有請問在預算執行當中，你們審計單位不會去了解他們的核銷狀況？"],["李副審計長順保：因為我們都是事後審計，監察院跟各機關都一樣，每個月、四個月的15號以前，一定要把會計報告跟核銷相關資訊檔案傳過來，它跟各機關都是一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以每四個月就要送……"],["李副審計長順保：每個月，比如1月份的會計報告跟財務報告，必須在2月15號前送到審計部來，我們都會加以審核。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以代表審計部現在應該也有監察院的一些報告，因為現在都已經5月啦，至少3、4月的是一定有。"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：那這個部分，可能要去了解一下，因為據他們的說法，這都是他們自己掏腰包出的油錢，實際上的狀況是怎麼樣，可能還要再了解。","另外我還要再請教另外一個問題，行政院已經聲請了114年總預算案釋憲，大法官審查的結果如何，我們還不知道，但是有一種狀況是，萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院，立法院要重審，勢必會有一些預算的額度可能會不一樣。那審計部有沒有想到，如果退回立法院重審後，法定預算的金額有所變更，已經支出的經費，審計部要怎麼處理？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算，各機關會每個月分配預算，根據那個數額處理。假設有很特殊的情況，我想行政院會做權宜的處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：行政院會做權宜的處理？"],["李副審計長順保：因為我們都是根據通過的法定預算實際審核，機關每個月一定有分配預算。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，我現在的講法就是，當然我們的預算已經通過，是法定預算，但是因為行政院已經聲請釋憲了，所以在某種概念上，法定預算可能還屬於一個不確定的狀態，萬一預算退回給立法院重審，不管是全部或是部分重審，勢必可能會造成法定預算的項目有所變更，而且可能釋憲期間都已經過了114年。審計部就這部分有思考過相關的法律問題要怎麼解決嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，我們就是根據行政院移過來的總預算，大院通過的法定預算數額是多少，我們就照這樣處理。剛剛委員提醒的那些不確定狀況，其實我們也不清楚什麼時候會有一個確定的時間，但是政府是每天都在運作的，一打開就要做，政府簽的契約、工程的推動、一些法律義務的支出，每天都要處理，所以可能還是要照原來通過的預算執行。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以之後有變更，萬一預算重審之後錢變少了，但是前一波預算編的經費是多的，那多花了之後，這個錢要追回來嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：預算的調整、調撥，這個權限應該在行政院啦，我們只是根據大院通過的法定預算，監督預算的執行情形。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以簡單來說，如果行政機關現在把錢全部都花了，萬一之後再一次審查法定預算，數額是減少的，花出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來，我覺得是一個問題，我也希望審計部是不是可以幫大家研擬一份報告？因為這是很實際的問題，是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內，提供給我們一份這樣的報告？因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情。我要講總預算聲請釋憲案是過去從來沒有發生過的事情，但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的柯建銘、民進黨黨團聲請釋憲，以致讓整個總預算案處在效力未定的狀態。之後如果有任何預算變動的狀況，多編了當然就沒有問題，但是如果之後刪的比原來的還要多的時候，已經花出去的錢要怎樣收回？這部分審計部是不是可以給我一份報告？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，這個部分其實跟審計的職掌比較沒有關係啦，但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料，就是我們初步研究的，提供給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：但是這個資料不代表我們，因為主要行政院要掌控整個總預算的籌編、執行、控制，那是它的職責，我們只是在後面監督，但是那些分析資料，我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，那就拜託李副審計長，我現在大概已經不相信行政院了，我寧可比較相信審計部提的分析報告。"],["李副審計長順保：時間上委員是不是容許給我們兩個禮拜？"],["翁委員曉玲：可以，沒有問題，那就兩個禮拜，麻煩召委同意李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告。"],["主席：再麻煩審計部處理，反正權責相符，你們有多少資料就提供多少。"],["李副審計長順保：是，謝謝委員，謝謝召委。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9ede29bc6d976122d952232a9b15fab92f3a9c8b26d91a1e230fd4b0f6903ffae55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:45:46 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謝謝主席我覺得我們今天我們司法法制委員會已經好幾次那麼該來的都不來那今天呢秘書長雖然在昨天晚上突然請辭可是問題是監察院完全沒有派任何代表來第一個藐視立法院"},{"start":27.461,"end":56.456,"text":"第二個難道監察院現在整個監察院是已經羞於見人了嗎即便秘書長突然請辭也可以派代理人來到立法院來做報告難道監察院對於我們今天的專案報告就是如何建立一個清廉政府如何去防範貪腐他們覺得不重要嗎所以我覺得我們還是要允許一個嚴厲的譴責好謝謝主席那我想我請那個法務部長"},{"start":57.196,"end":58.737,"text":"麻煩保護部長好 部長好委員好這次監察院發生了連續從秘書長開始到好幾位的監察委員都有濫用公務車的情形那引起軒然大波但是事實上公務人員濫用公務車也不是從現在開始"},{"start":85.988,"end":111.494,"text":"今天早上除了已經請辭的秘書長李俊逸之外還有蘇麗瓊監委是要去看牙醫然後另外一位監委林玉榮去載親友去接送機場今天早上又爆發另外一位的王榮章監委他一樣的去用公務車去理頭髮"},{"start":112.808,"end":128.323,"text":"所以今天監察院早上召開記者會除了來說明為什麼李俊逸秘書長準辭之外也把三位監察委員要移送紀律委員會"},{"start":130.069,"end":156.119,"text":"那這樣的一個發展其實是因為最近輿論大滑本來監察院第一時間竟然說這是涉及事件所以監察委員他們也不曉得該怎麼樣去處理這真的是很離譜因為他們都忘記他們自己有一個紀律委員會還要煩勞外界去提醒他們監察院你們自己有紀律委員會"},{"start":157.199,"end":173.049,"text":"所以呢他今天呢移送三位監委去他的紀律委員會那另外一方面呢我們常常講說監察院敢不敢打老虎還是呢只是敢打蚊子而已"},{"start":173.857,"end":199.434,"text":"那麼監察院過去其實也有就是監察委員就彈劾監察委員在這邊特別要提的就是這些涉案的監委並不是只有去紀律委員會而已他們還有幾個選擇第一個選擇就是他要不要比照呂敬義秘書長要請辭下台以事負責 負起政治責任"},{"start":200.234,"end":219.434,"text":"另外一個呢 就是監委可以去彈劾監委 這個是過去曾經發生過的在美國86年的時候 其實監察院通過彈劾監察委員叫做蔡慶柱他的一個收賄貪污案"},{"start":220.575,"end":240.732,"text":"所以這件事情不是說今天像擠牙膏的方式那麼外界質疑到哪裡你就去辦到哪裡現在才做請辭做斷尾求生現在才去移送紀律委員會其實還有其他的監察院敢不敢彈劾"},{"start":241.972,"end":244.214,"text":"但是我在這邊為什麼要請部長上台部長一定站了半天覺得說這干我什麼事所以我要請教的是其實過去我剛剛講"},{"start":254.744,"end":272.835,"text":"用濫用公務車並不是從現在開始過去也有很多的案例這個在之前今天我看有些委員提到的包含前台南市的民族事務委員會的主委前雲林縣的消防局局長"},{"start":274.817,"end":296.139,"text":"屏東三地門的鄉長 還有前屏東訪寮鄉長都曾經因為 當然他們的情節還有其他的 但是他們濫用公務車就是公務車公器私用的部分 也是造成他貪污犯罪的一部分"},{"start":296.94,"end":311.686,"text":"那麼過去都有 都有處理甚至呢 其實有很多還有起訴的當然也有被彈劾的也有被判刑的當然有些是還起訴好 所以"},{"start":313.395,"end":335.876,"text":"過去很多公務人員 有的有辦 有的沒有辦 待會我也要提到有些根本完全都沒有辦啦 然後裝死就過去了那我要請教的部長是 一個國家終究不能夠一國兩制或一國多制 對不對所以如果像公務人員 像這次監察院 從秘書長開始到監委"},{"start":338.447,"end":362.307,"text":"那麼我剛才也提出對照過去也有因為你私用公務車認為你侵占了公有財物而被來被調查被起訴的這些案例那請問一下部長對於公務人員濫用公務車到底檢調辦不辦辦的標準是不是應該一致"},{"start":367.05,"end":381.765,"text":"謝謝委員我想這一件那個北捷有因為民眾的叫法檢舉那個有立案來偵辦那這部分只要我們刑訴訴訟法只要有告訴告發"},{"start":383.627,"end":396.759,"text":"這部分我們就會只有犯罪嫌疑我們就會來立案來做一個告發有沒有時間限制沒有時間限制那個追溯嫌疑部分那個告發都沒有時間限制"},{"start":398.226,"end":424.838,"text":"那如果這樣的話那我就也直接跟部長來告發另外三個例子更高高官來2023年的時候年初我們的國家運輸安全調查委員會的主委楊洪志他在上班期間搭乘公務車到宜蘭去訪友泡溫泉吃美食有的時候的太太也跟著一起去"},{"start":425.658,"end":450.854,"text":"那這個事情呢後來呢也不了了之就是運安會的主委楊洪志好再來2024年7月10號我們駐WTO代表羅昌發他呢被爆料被長期佔用Volvo的公務車當私家車甚至拿公帑來報銷個人的用品"},{"start":453.756,"end":473.731,"text":"再來我們的駐美代表余大雷他也被爆料說用公務車在駐外的待遇被爆料後來他自己承認曾經搭公務車和家人一起去賞櫻花"},{"start":476.509,"end":502.851,"text":"這些案例其實跟監察院的案例其實都有類似都有類似這個過去呢其實也都有報導但是後來不了了之所以我在這邊呢剛才講說沒有告發的期限所以我就當這邊就直接跟我們部長來告發這三個案例希望呢我們法部也能夠去做調查"},{"start":503.692,"end":515.563,"text":"因為他的行政調查呢就隨著反正就不了了之下我們這個駐美代表就沒事了所以如果行政調查不做那麼我請法務部能夠來做調查他應該呢是應該要一致的好謝謝部長部長請回另外我請一下那個我們的審計今天審計部是副審計長是不是"},{"start":535.495,"end":540.037,"text":"委員好副審議長其實我常常都覺得我到立法院之後我覺得各部會我一直覺得審計部算是比較還有在在好好在做事情的啦有時候看你們的審計部的報告只是後來呢因為被揭發出來的很多的弊端那麼你們也越來越有些保守我今天很仔細看你們的報告的內容"},{"start":565.529,"end":584.261,"text":"我要特別講就是說在你們報告內容其實是非常恐怖的事情為什麼呢在你們的報告內容你們特別提到你們也是用大數據來分析分析我們很多的這些主要都是一些政府的採購案"},{"start":585.717,"end":605.033,"text":"你們在這些的這個案件裡面2900家竟然呢有800家比例將近三成喔是政府機關根本沒有依採購法去追繳押標金該追繳而未追繳你同意還有"},{"start":607.075,"end":619.771,"text":"500家 比例17.2然後 對這些不拔廠商該停權 不去停權 對不對有吧 這個情形嚴不嚴重"},{"start":621.906,"end":632.234,"text":"請問一下我們整個透過這個數據分析的技術大概篩選出來的情況很嚴重很嚴重 是好 所以我在這邊講孰令制之啊如果我們今天要講的是建立一個青年政治避免貪腐為什麼在我們審計部他用大數據去看這個還不是去抓幣喔"},{"start":647.786,"end":664.018,"text":"這個是你政府機關就應該依照政府採購法你應該去追繳你不去追繳這不是圖利什麼叫做圖利這不是貪污什麼叫做貪污還有你該去給他停權而不去給他停權就是因為這樣子長此以往"},{"start":668.106,"end":691.934,"text":"其實最近 所以我剛才對監察院多所批評監察院這個月份 五月吧 對不起 五月有一個糾正案 但是我覺得糾正都太輕了這個我曾經也有踢爆過就是呢 我們警察人員 警消的防彈背心的弊端嘛對不對 你們去糾正這個案子"},{"start":693.384,"end":708.041,"text":"這個案子多麼的離譜離譜到這個廠商一而再再而三的飆到一而再再而三的驗收不過我們竟然一而再再而三的繼續繼續讓他能夠得標沒有弊端嗎"},{"start":716.158,"end":738.865,"text":"沒有問題嗎 只要被糾正嗎我甚至曾經提過 這家廠商叫光顏企業多麼離譜他驗收不過 然後被列入拒絕往來名單拒絕往來名單呢 他有時效性一解除他拒絕往來名單 立刻"},{"start":740.925,"end":758.363,"text":"再讓他能夠得標他這麼神通欸這麼神通欸只要拒絕往來名單一被解除就立刻得標然後出來就是這種有瑕疵品的把我們警消人員把我們警察人員的命不當病欸我們的政府已經爛到這種地步了欸"},{"start":765.71,"end":788.812,"text":"這種人命關天 草菅人命的事情而且是警察基層第一線的人員最後警察還要自己去買防彈背心他們都自己知道就是政府發給他們的防彈背心他們不敢用最後自己去買防彈背心我知道你們五月份去糾正了這個案子包含警政署吧 海巡署吧還有台營可是糾正夠嗎"},{"start":793.263,"end":806.456,"text":"所以我在這邊其實我肯定因為審計部可能是根據這些數據一個一個的去追但是像這個我剛才講的案例獨獨只是糾正絕對不夠啊所以在這邊副審計長也承認問題很嚴重啊"},{"start":813.755,"end":833.646,"text":"所以雖然法務部長在下面我剛才就請你先回座我是覺得我們今天房攤什麼清廉說假的啦連這些政府的標案都公然這麼多的比例政府採購法在那邊是受尬是不是是在那邊只是當作是怎麼樣"},{"start":838.444,"end":865.353,"text":"只是在裝飾品所以我在這邊期許我們審計部還是本於你們的過去至少我這兩年我看審計部的報告我都會看到一些東西我覺得你們有在抓我們現在政府的弊端不是這種粉飾太平要繼續抓但是我們所有相關的這些政府相關的這些政府的採購真的不能這麼爛"},{"start":868.354,"end":895.304,"text":"你看我剛才講將近三成欸該追繳押標金他都不去追繳請問一下為什麼不追繳他是忙嗎是忙還是在包庇所以在這邊齁也請齁我還是請我們的審計部審計部你過去有包含什麼就業安地基金但是很惡劣啦就業安地基金他讓他要補回七千多萬他還要拿公務預算對不對"},{"start":896.69,"end":905.897,"text":"是不是 就是那個勞動部你們去追那個就業安靜基金他濫用的地方嗎目前還沒有確定那個預算來源 還沒有"},{"start":906.943,"end":934.37,"text":"目前還沒有 還沒有跟你們 還沒有告訴你們預算來源是是這一種還要跟 還要納稅人去編預算給他喔真的很沒有良心啦好 這個我還是希望審計部能夠未來還是確確實實的幫人民的納稅人來把關是 謝謝委員剛剛委員追尋那個防彈衣跟抗彈材料那個採購案其實我們有另外移送給台北地檢目前在整辦中"},{"start":935.894,"end":939.547,"text":"對應該這個案子一定要移送啦是是真的太草菅人命好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時45分）好，謝謝主席。我覺得今天司法及法制委員會已經好幾次，該來的人都不來，秘書長雖然在昨天晚上突然請辭，問題是監察院完全沒有派任何代表來。第一個，藐視立法院；第二個，難道現在整個監察院已經是羞於見人了嗎？即便秘書長突然請辭，也可以派代理人來立法院報告，難道監察院對於我們今天的專案報告，就是如何建立一個清廉政府／如何去防範貪腐，他們覺得不重要嗎？所以我覺得我們還是要予以嚴厲的譴責。謝謝主席。我請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩法務部部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：這一次監察院連續發生從秘書長開始到好幾位的監察委員，都有濫用公務車的情形，引起軒然大波。事實上，公務人員濫用公務車也不是從現在開始，除了已經請辭的秘書長李俊俋之外，還有蘇麗瓊監委是要去看牙醫，另外一位監委林郁容是載親友去機場，今天早上又爆發另外一位王榮璋監委一樣用公務車去理頭髮。監察院今天早上召開記者會，除了說明為什麼准李俊俋辭秘書長之外，也把3位監察委員移送紀律委員會。這樣的發展其實是因為最近輿論大譁，本來監察院第一時間竟然說這是涉己事件，所以監察委員也不曉得該怎麼樣處理，這真的是很離譜啊！因為他們都忘記自己有一個紀律委員會，還要勞煩外界去提醒他們，監察院自己有紀律委員會，所以今天移送3位監委去紀律委員會。","另一方面，我們常常說監察院敢不敢打老虎？還是只敢打蚊子而已？監察院過去其實也有監察委員彈劾監察委員，在這邊特別要提的就是這些涉案的監委，並不是只有去紀律委員會而已，他們還有幾個選擇，第一個選擇就是要不要比照李俊俋秘書長，請辭下台以示負責，負起政治責任；另外一個就是監委可以彈劾監委，這個是過去曾經發生過的，在民國86年的時候，其實監察院就曾經通過彈劾蔡慶祝監察委員收賄貪污案。所以這件事情不是說今天像擠牙膏的方式，外界質疑到哪裡，就去辦到哪裡，現在才請辭斷尾求生，現在才移送紀律委員會，其實還有其他的，監察院敢不敢彈劾？","我在這邊為什麼要請部長上台？部長一定站了半天，覺得說這干我什麼事？我要請教的是，其實濫用公務車並不是從現在開始，過去也有很多的案例。今天我看一些委員有提到，包含前臺南市民族事務委員會主委、前雲林縣消防局局長、屏東三地門鄉長，還有前屏東訪寮鄉鄉長，當然他們還有其他的情節，但是他們濫用公務車，公器私用的部分也是造成貪污犯罪的一部分，過去都有處理，甚至很多還有起訴的，也有被彈劾的，也有被判刑的，有些是緩起訴。過去很多公務人員有的有辦，有的沒有辦，待會我也會提到，有些根本完全都沒有辦，然後裝死就過去了。","我要請教部長的是，一個國家終究不能一國兩制或一國多制，對不對？如果公務人員，像這一次監察院，從秘書長開始到監委，我剛才也提出對照，過去也有因為私用公務車，認為侵占了公有財物，而被調查、被起訴的案例。請問一下部長，對於公務人員濫用公務車，到底檢調辦不辦？辦的標準是不是應該一致？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。這件因為有民眾向北檢檢舉，已立案偵辦，只要刑事訴訟法有告訴或告發規定，這部分我們會就犯罪行為立案瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：告發有沒有時間限制？"],["鄭部長銘謙：告發沒有時間限制。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有時間限制。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為追訴權那部分……告發都沒有時間限制。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，如果這樣的話，那我就直接跟部長告發另外3個例子，是更高的高官。2023年年初，國家運輸安全調查委員會主委楊宏智，在上班期間搭乘公務車到宜蘭訪友，泡溫泉吃美食，有的時候太太也跟著一起去，這個事情後來也不了之，這是運安會的主委楊宏智；2024年7月10日，駐WTO代表羅昌發被爆料，長期占用Volvo的公務車當私家車，甚至拿公帑報銷個人的用品；駐美代表俞大㵢被爆料，後來他自己承認曾經搭公務車和家人一起去賞櫻花。這些案例其實跟監察院的案例類似，過去也都有報導，但是後來都不了了之。剛才說沒有告發的期限，所以我這邊就直接跟部長告發這三個案例，希望法務部也能夠調查，因為他的行政調查就隨著……反正就不了了之，像我們的駐美代表就沒事了。如果行政調查不做，那麼我請法務部來調查，這是應該要一致的。謝謝部長，部長請回。","另外，我請一下審計部副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副審計長，其實我到立法院之後，有時候看你們審計部的報告，我覺得在各部會當中，審計部還算是比較有在好好做事情的，只是後來被揭發出很多弊端，你們也有點越來越保守。我今天很仔細看你們的報告內容，我要特別講的就是，你們的報告內容裡面其實揭露非常恐怖的事情，為什麼呢？在你們的報告內容裡面特別提到，你們也是用大數據分析，分析很多主要都是一些政府的採購案。在這些案件裡面，2,900家竟然有800家，比例將近三成，政府機關根本沒有依採購法去追繳押標金，該追繳而未追繳，你同意？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有500家，比例占17.2%，對這些不法廠商該停權的不去停權，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：有吧？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個情形嚴不嚴重？"],["李副審計長順保：我們整個透過數據分析的技術，篩選出來其實情況很嚴重。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我在這邊講，孰令致之？如果我們今天要講的是建立一個清廉政治，避免貪腐，為什麼審計部用大數據去看時……這還不是去抓弊喔！這是政府機關就應該依照政府採購法，應該去追繳的，你不去追繳，這不是圖利什麼叫做圖利？這不是貪污什麼叫做貪污？還有該去給他停權而不去給他停權的，就是因為這樣子，長此以往……所以我剛才對監察院多所批評。監察院5月有一個糾正案，但是我覺得糾正都太輕了，這個我曾經也有踢爆過，就是我們警察人員、警消防彈背心的弊端，你們去糾正這個案子，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個案子多麼地離譜！離譜到這個廠商一而再、再而三地標到，一而再、再而三地驗收不過，我們竟然一而再、再而三地繼續讓它能夠得標，沒有弊端嗎？沒有問題嗎？只要被糾正嗎？我甚至曾經提過這家廠商叫光研企業，多麼離譜，它驗收不過，被列入拒絕往來名單，拒絕往來名單有時效性，一解除拒絕往來名單，立刻再讓它得標，它這麼神通耶，這麼神通耶！只要拒絕往來名單一被解除就立刻得標，然後出來的就是這種有瑕疵品的，把我們警消人員、把我們警察人員的命不當命耶！我們的政府已經爛到這種地步，這種人命關天、草菅人命的事情，而且是警察，他們是基層第一線的人員，最後警察還要自己去買防彈背心，他們自己都知道，政府發給他們的防彈背心他們不敢用，最後自己去買防彈背心。我知道你們5月份去糾正了這個案子，包含警政署、海巡署還有臺銀，可是糾正夠嗎？在這邊其實我肯定，因為審計部可能是根據這些數據一個一個去追，但是像我剛才講的這個案例，獨獨只是糾正絕對不夠啊！所以副審計長也承認問題很嚴重啊！","雖然法務部長在下面，我剛才就請你先回座，我是覺得我們今天什麼防貪、什麼清廉，都是說假的啦！連這些政府標案這麼多的比例都公然……政府採購法是塑膠是不是？只是當作裝飾品嗎？所以我在這邊期許審計部還是本於你們過去……至少這兩年我看審計部的報告，我都會看到一些東西。我覺得你們有在抓政府的弊端，而不是粉飾太平，要繼續抓。我們所有政府相關的這些政府採購真的不能這麼爛，你看我剛才講將近三成耶，該追繳押標金的都不去追繳，請問一下為什麼不追繳？它是忙嗎？是忙還是在包庇？所以在這邊我還是請審計部，過去包含就業安定基金，但是很惡劣啦，要讓就業安定基金補回七千多萬，它還要拿公務預算，對不對？就是勞動部，你們去追他們就業安定基金濫用的地方嘛。"],["李副審計長順保：目前還沒有確定預算來源。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前還沒有告訴你們預算來源？"],["李副審計長順保：是，還沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：這種還要用納稅人的錢編預算給他喔？真的很沒有良心啦！好，這個部分我還是希望審計部未來還是確確實實地幫人民的納稅錢把關。"],["李副審計長順保：是，謝謝委員。剛剛委員所垂詢的防彈衣跟抗彈材料的採購案，其實我們有另外移送給臺北地檢，目前在偵辦中。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，這個案子一定要移送啦，真的太草菅人命。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162120","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162120","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9e1c92ca75807754d752232a9b15fab92ff2f9ac16a99deee094876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:30:32 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11:44:32","影片長度":"00:14:00","會議時間":"2025-06-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-02","start_time":"2025-06-02T11:30:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-02T11:44:32+08:00","duration":840,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.058468750000003,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.36159375,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.39096875,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.453468750000003,"end":38.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.00159375,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.46409375,"end":46.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.68284375,"end":41.070968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.98221875,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.32721875,"end":52.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.697843750000004,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.45659375,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.09784375,"end":165.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.67596875,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.09221875,"end":185.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.64346875,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.47409375,"end":286.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.42909375,"end":296.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.87909375000004,"end":317.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.55096875000004,"end":320.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.87534375,"end":330.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.78096875,"end":334.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.54409375,"end":334.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.56096875000003,"end":335.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.11784375,"end":340.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.26971875000004,"end":336.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.28159375,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.51784375,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.63596875,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.75409375000004,"end":340.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.35721875,"end":345.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.27221875000004,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.95096875,"end":350.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.57721875000004,"end":371.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.58034375,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.91534375000003,"end":388.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.01659375,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.36409375000005,"end":406.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.94596875,"end":420.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.65409375,"end":414.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.34909375,"end":446.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.02846875,"end":456.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.39846875,"end":460.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.63409375000003,"end":500.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.84284375000004,"end":510.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.3390937500001,"end":514.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.96721875,"end":517.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.1359687500001,"end":517.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.5534687500001,"end":586.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.75159375,"end":519.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.85909375,"end":587.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.11221875,"end":593.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.0478437500001,"end":610.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.5009687500001,"end":610.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.0915937500001,"end":631.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.0234687500001,"end":615.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.8647187500001,"end":635.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.1340937500001,"end":652.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.7009687500001,"end":685.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.72034375,"end":665.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.9153437500001,"end":686.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.2865937500001,"end":689.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.8303437500001,"end":696.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.78284375,"end":705.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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謝謝主席 那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前 我要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是 因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說 他剛剛問我問題 他一直說請問對不對 那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述 所以我就不"},{"start":36.015,"end":36.515,"text":"我保證不會請問主席"},{"start":52.846,"end":75.224,"text":"我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年"},{"start":75.925,"end":100.956,"text":"女足跟足鞋之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足鞋好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備"},{"start":104.338,"end":109.761,"text":"足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子是四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁"},{"start":125.071,"end":149.273,"text":"那我們呢 當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢"},{"start":150.655,"end":164.73,"text":"購買品項啦 協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是 可是到底足協後續如何去發放"},{"start":165.811,"end":183.421,"text":"然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好 相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位 對嗎"},{"start":184.682,"end":198.76,"text":"行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手"},{"start":200.342,"end":210.869,"text":"他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題啦時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自"},{"start":216.172,"end":232.118,"text":"自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯"},{"start":243.883,"end":267.219,"text":"可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個"},{"start":267.919,"end":285.546,"text":"有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託審計部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致於最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手"},{"start":287.572,"end":316.892,"text":"這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做"},{"start":317.592,"end":333.413,"text":"好 跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理"},{"start":334.754,"end":348.579,"text":"徹底處理所以另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告因為我們到七月底前審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算"},{"start":350.1,"end":371.486,"text":"因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊有掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速"},{"start":372.986,"end":393.798,"text":"好,不過我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好,我們把我們手上從去年到今年我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題更全面性的跟你們討論好不好,因為今天時間有限是是好,那就時間改三個月,沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好,謝謝好,接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回,謝謝"},{"start":408.998,"end":409.66,"text":"好 謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是"},{"start":413.292,"end":437.971,"text":"專委 我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要重視AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有次您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場"},{"start":438.812,"end":459.452,"text":"高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了"},{"start":460.697,"end":482.993,"text":"如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖不管是做簡報不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好要先事先提醒"},{"start":483.493,"end":510.378,"text":"我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JET GPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":512.406,"end":529.1,"text":"這是真的新聞 這不是我用AI做的妳沒有看過妳了解 妳有看到這個新聞沒有 這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病"},{"start":529.64,"end":551.573,"text":"然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面她說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的"},{"start":554.975,"end":567.261,"text":"意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來"},{"start":571.323,"end":592.964,"text":"可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的 對嗎相關的悲劇 下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述 您很清楚"},{"start":595.15,"end":623.337,"text":"對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好"},{"start":623.897,"end":651.842,"text":"因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理"},{"start":653.957,"end":677.343,"text":"這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中"},{"start":679.404,"end":695.594,"text":"重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦"},{"start":696.895,"end":719.955,"text":"我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機,有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面,而且用得得心應手,每天都可以用,什麼問題都可以用。我猜大部分人可能只有check GPT,可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好,數位時代的年輕幕僚也好,他們手上的工具,絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。"},{"start":720.555,"end":741.782,"text":"而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕所以我也想要請問任總我剛剛自己講了這麼多我提出一個需求請你回應我有沒有可能有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性"},{"start":749.009,"end":762.843,"text":"謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好 帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了"},{"start":764.215,"end":783.59,"text":"可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎"},{"start":786.352,"end":801.539,"text":"三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞"},{"start":803.405,"end":823.677,"text":"是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長"},{"start":824.718,"end":825.038,"text":"那我們先處理會議時間喔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":838,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時30分）謝謝主席。有請審計部，不過在審計部移動之前，要提醒主席……"],["主席：麻煩副審計長。"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，我們在司法及法制委員會的慣例，就是主席都會評價委員，我這是第一次見到這麼……"],["主席：沒有啊，不是這樣，因為他剛剛問我問題嘛。"],["陳委員培瑜：他剛剛有說，請你不要回答啦。"],["主席：應該這麼說，他剛問我問題，他一直說「請問」，對不對？我本來想說，我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述，所以我就不回答，如果你們沒有請問我，我就不回答。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我覺得雙標的事情，我們認真面對。沒關係，不過主席我今天沒有要請問你，我要請問審計部。"],["主席：好，沒有要請問我最好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我保證不會請問主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：今天是審計部的副審計長，你好。我們來談一下主席今天排的議題，如果從主席排的議題相關延伸來看一下，我今天想要跟您請教的問題，就是關於瀆職罪這個事情，這個事情跟我們辦公室過去一直關心體育界的案例有關係，我快速跟您討論。第一個，今年女足跟足協之間有一些問題，我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞，不過簡單的說，這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概3,000萬的預算，提供給女足做集訓計畫，這3,000萬並不會真的實質落到每個球員手上，中間必須要透過足協，我想您是清楚這個過程。今年就發生了一個爭議，就是相關設備的部分，足協去跟體育署請領了相關經費，例如每個球員要有4雙襪子、4套球衣等等，這是足協跟體育署申請的款項，可是實際上落到球員手上，例如4雙襪子、4套球衣，可能他們都只拿到2雙襪子、2套球衣。這我只是舉例，我們後續往下追蹤，我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情，明明有這麼多的錢，而且他們也做了這個申請，體育署也給了這個補助，為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備？我們就去調了相關資料，國訓中心5月27日回復給我們辦公室，他們的說法是說：足協確實有拿了這些錢，可是購買品項、協會代領裝備聲明書，或是總教練簽署協會內部申請單，這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的，可是足協後續到底如何發放，實際上球員每一個人拿到多少，這中間其實沒有追蹤，也沒有落於相關文件，所以球員才會來跟我們陳情。我會請您上來，你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情，對不對？相關行政法人確實也是審計部的公務稽核單位，對嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：行政法人是我們廣義的審計對象。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，我們等一下來看下一張圖，我有幫你圈出來，這是第一個。","第二個，剛剛是一個大的組織案例，這是最近發生的案例，吳東霖選手，他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽，這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助，可是因為協會的關係，這中間可能是申請的問題或是時間點的問題，導致選手這2年來都要自付款項、自墊款項，甚至還要跟親朋好友借錢。我剛剛下面也說了，一直到這件事情選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後，體育署才同意分批核銷，並表示下週就可以撥付，可是這跟剛剛那個足協的問題一樣，其實這只是我舉了其中2個案例，想要跟您討論一下，在審計部的角度，你們審計權行使對象的最核心是公務機關沒有錯，可是往外層的這些對象，其實這些是廣義的，對嗎？廣義的審計對象，所以我剛剛提到的行政法人就廣義上來說，我確實可以跟您討論這件事情，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情，如果是你們廣義可以審計的對象，我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上，我的要求非常簡單：第一個，針對近期不斷傳出經費支用與裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心，要拜託審計部進一步進行查察，避免不管是體育署的問題、協會的問題，還是國訓中心的問題，導致最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手，有沒有機會這樣做？這是第一個問題，您等一下再跟我說。","第二個，鑒於體育署對於所監督之行政法人，還有他們補助體育團體的經費，屢次傳出問題，其實這一年多來，我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手，這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估，這是體育署的部分；另外一個是針對我剛剛提到相關協會及國訓中心的部分，我想要拜託一下副審計長，可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做？"],["李副審計長順保：剛才委員垂詢的部分，大概是針對體育署跟各體育專項協會，另外也包括跟特定的行政法人有關，委員垂詢的這兩個部分，我們一定會澈底處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：澈底處理，所以……"],["李副審計長順保：對，另外委員有定一個時間是希望1個月……"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，因為我們到7月底前，審計部所有的主要人力都集中在審核總決算，因為憲法有規定，我們一定要在今年7月底提出總決算審核報告，所以時間上是不是能容許我們延長到3個月，讓我們整個可以做完整的調查跟評估？另一方面，我們也會跟委員辦公室聯繫及討論，並且查看委員辦公室手邊所掌握的資料，讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，不過我覺得您剛剛提出一個很重要的討論方向，第一個是時間拉長，第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論，好不好？我們把我們手上從去年到今年累積的很多案例並且所看到的問題，更全面性地跟你們討論，好不好？因為今天時間有限。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就時間改為3個月沒有問題，我們辦公室後續會積極跟審計部約時間開會。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。接下來的下一個議題，我要請人總，審計部請回，謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝人總，今天來的是專委？"],["江專門委員美芳：是，委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：專委，我就快速跟您討論，我們看到行政院有喊出要重視AI人才培育，以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用。我認為大方向絕對是好的，可是落到第一線的公務機關，我其實有一點擔心，我相信我的擔心其來有自，您自己怎麼看呢？第一個是針對高階人才的部分，你們要在7月到10月辦理4場「高階人才AI共識營」，而且針對的對象是部會首長、副首長、三級機關首長、三級機關的副首長，還有二級機關的司處長。假設這些人的平均年齡……我沒有年齡歧視，可是我要提的是，我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機，有多少人真的有安裝AI相關工具並且已經在手機裡？如果我們用現場大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式，不管是畫圖、不管是做簡報、不管是回答對話，我不知道有多少人會意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合，更何況你現在要進入公務機關裡。","我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好，或者是所謂高階主管也好，要事先提醒，我認為AI應用當然是這個時代的需求，但是落實的相關配套，會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力？因為長官上了課，長官認為這個很棒、這個有需求，於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情。我們來看一個案例，你有看過這個新聞嗎？「年輕公務員靠著ChatGPT、免費照片app，揪出1.5億政府採購案造假」，你有看到這個新聞嗎？這是真的新聞，這不是我用AI做的。"],["江專門委員美芳：沒有，抱歉。"],["陳委員培瑜：你沒有看過。好，這個新聞就是說有一位地方的基層公務員，他真的是用ChatGPT跟很多數位工具，幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病，於是這件事情就上了新聞。在這個畫面中間的這位女性應該是基層的公務員，相關承辦或者是科員，在我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位男性，我猜想可能是相關主管，左邊可能也是相關主管，於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面。它說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳心梅，還有新北市審計處處長，這個新聞圖片是這樣的，意思就是當這位基層的公務員意識到AI工具可以協助他，於是他自己也就進行了操作、進行了學習，確實也幫助了他的工作，而當他向他的長官回報的時候，他長官覺得：哇！這個超棒。它可能就變成一個政府的業績，可是我很怕這件事情，再加上前面你們提到的，希望公務人員都有AI素養、有AI能力的情況下，它會不會最後變成只是為了追求AI的KPI，導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大？我認為是有這可能的，對嗎？相關的悲劇，我們就不再贅述。","您很清楚，對嗎？勞動部的個案，我們就不再贅述。我的意思是，新時代新科技的應用當然重要，我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員，行政減量也好、業務減量也好，不要有這麼龐大的業務壓力，但我真的擔心，所以我只是提出友善的提醒。"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前、AI創新政府之前，真的要先幫基層公務人員想好，因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課，包含今天所有在座的部會首長都要去上課，他們上完課之後，難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎？不可能嘛！可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後，他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐？我認為我們預早做出準備，好嗎？不管是相關的配套、相關的政策，或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理，這個合理的界線怎麼劃分？這個合理的想像，大家有沒有共識？不要到最後又落入變成是基層公務人員的辛苦，可以嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前，我們共同往這個方向一起努力，所以我的要求是：第一個，針對AI應用在公務行政，我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中，重點提示應以開放的態度支持基層的創意，拜託不要把AI變成KPI，當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇，好嗎？第二個，AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說，其實不是他們的生命經驗，我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機，有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面，而且是用得心應手，每天都可以用，什麼問題都可以用？我猜大部分人可能只有ChatGPT，可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好、數位時代的年輕幕僚也好，他們手上的工具絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像。中高階主管如果因為這相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像，最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層公務人員非常非常可怕。所以我也想要請問人總，我剛剛講了這麼多並且提出了需求，請你回應我有沒有可能，有沒有機會同步評估納入外界資訊專業意見，協助體檢及盤點目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性？"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝委員的寶貴意見，針對委員的意見，我都會帶回去研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，帶回去研議。1個月內會不會太快？因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課，對不對？你們說7月到10月就要上課了，可是在規劃這個課程之前，如果你們沒有對末端應用有一些想像，你們規劃的課程就會是空中樓閣，它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求。"],["江專門委員美芳：委員的意見，我們都會一併帶回去研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：我這邊說1個月內給我們研議報告，真的可以嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：如果可以的話，可以3個月嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：3個月。主席再給我一些時間，再請教一下，你們7月到10月就要對部長等級的人上課，你們有安排好課程內容了嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：那個應該是去年的部分吧！剛剛委員簡報提到的……"],["陳委員培瑜：今年的，是最近的新聞，是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課。"],["江專門委員美芳：這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員瞭解？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，不然我們會後再討論，如果你1個月內要改3個月，我可以接受，但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論？"],["江專門委員美芳：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我真的不希望再發生相關悲劇，而且我也要說，如果到最後現場的悲劇都要部會首長來扛，可能對他們也不是太公平，因為我認為高階主管跟第一線工作人員有認知上的落差，好嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：是，好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["江專門委員美芳：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。我們先處理會議時間：上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","我現在不是回答誰的詢問，我可能要說明一下，主席本來就不會去評論每個委員的發言。但是如果委員有問題問主席的話，主席會回答。因為剛剛鍾佳濱委員有多次說「請問主席、請問吳宗憲」，所以我剛剛才會做這樣的回答。另外為什麼我剛剛說他胡扯不是第一次，我想說鍾佳濱委員說謊被踢爆好幾次了，所以這個是我論述的依據。再來就是，在109年3月25日，鍾佳濱委員自己曾經到司法及法制委員會參加會議，當次也是進行詢答，監察院秘書長也有來，他當次怎麼不說這個是違憲？我想一切都有資料可查詢，這是立法院第10屆第1會期在109年3月25日當次的會議，鍾佳濱委員也有出席。我們還是一樣，一切依據法律以及事實來說明。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162119","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162119","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9e76fc5eb7b5ada62f52232a9b15fab92ff2f9ac16a99deee0f856b9dc284de10f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:21:44 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在場委員先進 列席的政府機關首長官員 會長 公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生 謝謝昭偉的安排因為我今天的題目主要是修五權憲法費考監去問國共先"},{"start":33.531,"end":56.795,"text":"藍白貪瀆圖利更勝於公器私用我不曉得這個樣的質詢呢其實在場的每一位呢都是可以來參與質詢的對象那尤其是要跟昭偉抱個歉我不會邀請官員上台我就直接對所有人講好謝謝昭偉但是不要昭偉聽了有點不開心就把時間卡斷就好了好那我們就直接看這一點排監委專報吳宗憲有讀過憲法嗎"},{"start":61.499,"end":89.236,"text":"有個限制 我們來看一看 憲法徵信條文第二項第一款行政院有向立法院提出施政方針及施政報告之者立法院在開會時有向行政院院長及行政院各部會首長質詢之權今天我看了有來自有要邀請監察院還有包括審計部的嘛有邀請到權序部 這是考試院的這些單位是所謂的行政院院長及行政院各部會嗎"},{"start":90.623,"end":104.958,"text":"好 我們來看一下 還是有一些條文可以問憲法第67條第二項各委員會得邀請政府人員及社會上有關係人員到會被尋那可能在場的這些不是行政院的官員們大概就是屬於政府人員"},{"start":105.879,"end":127.397,"text":"但是憲法第七次要寫立法院開會時,關係院的院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見他們有這樣的權利可以來列席陳述他們關係院,譬如像司法院、像監察院、像考試院的意見尤其是立法院在審議這些該院的法律案的時候,尤其是憲法訴訟法"},{"start":128.82,"end":134.973,"text":"那時候不曉得吳釗偉在安排的時候有沒有邀請司法院來表示意見呢好 可是呢 釋字第461說三院所屬一"},{"start":137.984,"end":163.033,"text":"非獨立行使職權的人在場有沒有獨立行使職權的人 沒有二 負行政職務者 對 在場是負行政職務者與其提出的三 法律案或有關預算案的事項亦有上開憲法規定之適用簡單講 司法法治委員會作為立法院的一個受院會委託的委員會邀請其他三個憲法機關的時候只有符合這三個條件的時候才能邀請他們來"},{"start":164.506,"end":188.415,"text":"當然在場沒有考試委員沒有監察委員沒有大法官而且今天在場的人都負有行政職務但是請教召委現在我們有法律案跟預算案在審嗎沒有啊這三個月的人員不用來請看下一頁排幕僚人員專報國民黨不要雙標啊就在一個月前啊我們司法法治委員會才邀請本院的幕僚長周萬來秘書長來報告啊結果立法院說什麼"},{"start":191.516,"end":216.949,"text":"幕僚人員不是立委行使立法權的監督課題啊看到沒有 幕僚人員周焕蘭秘書長 身為本院的秘書長 她是幕僚人員不需要列席結果呢 監察院組織法第九條秘書長是什麼秘書長也是幕僚人員啊嗨 趙偉幕僚人員不是不用列席嗎國民黨雙標喔周焕蘭秘書長可以不用來其他各院的秘書長就要來布蘭副秘書長也要來像現在司法院"},{"start":217.967,"end":245.635,"text":"沒有秘書長啊 要叫人家副秘書長來他尤其他不是政務人員耶 往下看好啦 我們現在看到了 有一位這個民眾黨的黨主席啊發生了這個案子之後呢 說要求當事人自首進退當事人請辭之後 又說人家是斷尾朝生啊走的還是你 扶的還是你啊 死的還是你 跪的還是你啊怎麼走都是你有話要說啦 我們來看一下這位大主席 我們現在看"},{"start":247.244,"end":253.657,"text":"他說怎麼樣 他說今天要廢除監察院啊 很好廢除監察院有沒有門檻 有 憲法政策條文第七條第一項"},{"start":255.274,"end":278.624,"text":"監察院作為國家最高監察機關就像立法院為國家最高立法機關監察院行使彈劾糾舉及審計權憲法修正案第十二條 憲法修改要立法委員四分之一之提議國民黨有沒有四分之一 有四分之三之出席 每次開會我們民進黨一定出席經出席委員四分之三之決議可以提出憲法修正案在我們第十屆2020年的時候呢"},{"start":281.25,"end":307.019,"text":"2022年就做過了 我們提出的憲法修正案還要經過公告半年後 由中華民國自由地區選舉人投票複決有效同意票過半數的選舉人不斷通過結果呢 我們在2022年要弄一個公民權的修憲公投結果來啦 國台辦呢 在2022年就發布了馬小光說 所謂的修憲公投根本就是為了修憲謀獨的鋪路跟造勢啊"},{"start":307.973,"end":315.939,"text":"聽到他們的發言 國民兩黨 藍白兩黨 哇 發抖啊他們不同意 我們可以這樣做嗎 你可以這樣做嗎 我們好想看"},{"start":317.41,"end":343.43,"text":"廢除監察院 國民黨支持嗎?吳昭瑋你支持嗎?你是國民黨黨員嗎?有沒有讀過國民黨的黨章啊?國民黨黨章是什麼?奉行三民主義五權憲法之宗旨幫你查出來了不曉得回去看一看結果呢 欸?國民黨的黨團總召傅坤吉說要廢監察院跟黃國昌的說法一樣黃總召的說法一樣結果國民黨黨中央說什麼?五權分立是國民黨的長期主張啊"},{"start":344.266,"end":366.048,"text":"到底誰雙標 誰在精神分裂是傅坤祺代表國民黨 還是那個發言的黨主席代表國民黨到底國民黨跟黃國昌要不要主張五權分裂啊 往下看再說公器私用吧 哇 在場的公器私用我想 莫於國民黨跟民眾黨 我們來看一下傅坤祺 親信 站天下得標 2177萬"},{"start":368.752,"end":395.758,"text":"民眾黨吳春成前委員 哇 2200萬 攤啊 誰比較攤傅坤崎占國有地 蓋停車場 占了800坪民眾黨黨主席黃國昌 占國有地 占了28坪大攤跟小攤林志廟設攤一審判決12年6個月高環判決7年4個月 好像國民黨比較攤喔接下來還有傅坤崎任內聯絡部啦 金鑽啦 米袋啦 都落款"},{"start":396.923,"end":403.777,"text":"我民眾黨柯文哲市場內大量採購柯語錄公器私用莫此為勝啊再往下看"},{"start":407.026,"end":418.234,"text":"講到公益適用這還是一個不特定的法律概念那我們來看一下瀆職罪是不是很明確刑法我不請教部長了貪污治罪條例瀆職跟貪污我們簡稱貪瀆法務部出版的圖利罪相關問題之研究圖利罪是屬於智慧狡詐刑之犯罪他會注意到過程合理安排因此事證的痕跡他會去消除避免被發掘 收證很困難證據都多殘缺"},{"start":436.528,"end":453.479,"text":"所以為什麼我們有的立法委員很喜歡當檢調在立法院的質詢都喜歡個案問政然後就要指導檢調辦案可是對於貪瀆的辦案這麼興趣這麼高所謂的公器私用到底哪一個比較嚴重所以"},{"start":454.315,"end":475.255,"text":"我們往下看今天的結論吳檢作就算沒有熟讀憲法吳昭偉要向莊昭偉學習啊莊昭偉好歹排的幕僚長排的秘書長是立法院的周冠萊秘書長到本委員會來就本院相關的事宜包括立法院簽證事宜來做報告我們的吳昭偉"},{"start":477.205,"end":493.08,"text":"卻排了一個違反我們四字精神讓其他平行於立法院的其他縣政機關要求指派人員來到現場做跟法案預算無關的備詢請吳檢作回去憲法讀一讀請吳昭偉向莊昭偉好好的學習學習好 謝謝莊委員因為你剛剛有一直問我"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時21分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生。謝謝召委的安排。我今天的題目主要是「修五權憲法廢考監去問國共先，藍白貪瀆圖利更甚於公器私用」，這樣的質詢，其實在場的每一位都是可以參與質詢的對象。要先跟召委道個歉，我不會邀請官員上臺，我就直接對所有人講。"],["主席：不用是不是？好、好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝召委，但是召委不要聽了有一點不開心就把時間cut斷。我們就直接看投影片，排監院專報，吳宗憲有讀過憲法嗎？有個限制，我們來看一看憲法增修條文第三條第二項第一款「行政院有向立法院提出施政方針及施政報告之責。立法委員在開會時，有向行政院院長及行政院各部會首長質詢之權。」今天我看有邀請監察院，還有包括審計部、銓敘部、考試院，這些單位是所謂的行政院院長及行政院各部會嗎？我們來看一下，還是有一些條文可以問，憲法第六十七條第二項「各種委員會得邀請政府人員及社會上有關係人員到會備詢。」可能在場這些不是行政院的官員們大概就是屬於政府人員。但是憲法第七十一條寫「立法院開會時，關係院院長及各部會首長『得』列席陳述意見。」他們有這樣的權利可以列席陳述他們關係院，比如像司法院、監察院、考試院的意見，尤其當立法院在審議該院法律案的時候，尤其是憲法訴訟法，那時候不曉得吳召委在安排的時候，有沒有邀請司法院來表示意見？可是釋字第416號說：三院所屬，一、非獨立行使職權的人，在場有沒有非獨立行使職權的人？沒有。二、負行政職務者，對，在場的人是負行政職務者。於其提出之，三、法律案及有關預算案涉及之事項，亦有上開憲法規定之適用。簡單講，司法及法制委員會作為立法院一個受院會委託的委員會，要邀請其他三個憲法機關，只有符合這三個條件的時候，才能邀請他們來。當然，在場沒有考試委員、沒有監察委員、沒有大法官，而且今天在場的人都負有行政職務，但是請教召委，現在我們有法律案跟預算案在審嗎？沒有啊，所以這三個院的人員不用來。","請看下一頁，排幕僚人員專報，國民黨不要雙標。就在一個月前，我們司法及法制委員會才邀請本院的幕僚長周萬來秘書長來報告，結果立法院說什麼？幕僚人員不是立委行使立法權的監督課題，看到沒有？周萬來秘書長身為本院的秘書長，他是幕僚人員，不需要列席。依監察院組織法第九條，秘書長也是幕僚人員，召委，幕僚人員不是不用列席嗎？國民黨雙標喔！周萬來秘書長可以不用來，其他各院的秘書長就要來，不然至少副秘書長也要來，像現在司法院沒有秘書長，叫人家副秘書長來，尤其他還不是政務人員。","往下看，我們現在看到民眾黨的黨主席，發生案子之後要求當事人知所進退，當事人請辭之後，又說人家是斷尾求生，正也是你、負也是你、神也是你、鬼也是你，怎麼做你都有話講啦！我們看一下這位大主席，他說今天要廢除監察院，很好！廢除監察院有沒有門檻？有，依據憲法增修條文第七條第一項，監察院為國家最高監察機關，就像立法院為國家最高立法機關，監察院行使彈劾、糾舉及審計權。憲法增修條文第十二條，憲法修改要立法委員四分之一之提議，國民黨有沒有四分之一席次？有。有沒有四分之三之出席？每次開會，我們民進黨一定出席。經出席委員四分之三之決議可以提出憲法修正案，在我們第十屆2020年的時候就做過了，我們提出了憲法修正案，還要經過公告半年後，由中華民國自由地區選舉人投票複決，有效同意票過半數的選舉人通過。我們在2022年要弄一個公民權的修憲公投，結果國臺辦在2022年就發布了，馬曉光說：「所謂的『修憲公投』根本就是為了『修憲謀獨』而鋪路造勢。」聽到國臺辦的發言，國民兩黨、藍白兩黨發抖啊，他們不同意的話，我們可以這樣做嗎？你可以這樣做嗎？","廢除監察院，國民黨支持嗎？吳召委，你支持嗎？你是國民黨黨員嗎？有沒有讀過國民黨的黨章？國民黨黨章是什麼？「奉行三民主義五權憲法之宗旨」，我幫你查出來了，如果不曉得回去看一看，結果國民黨的黨團總召傅崐萁說要廢監察院，跟黃國昌總召的說法一樣，結果國民黨黨中央說五權分立是國民黨的長期主張，到底誰雙標？誰在精神分裂？是傅崐萁代表國民黨，還是那個發言的黨主席代表國民黨？到底國民黨跟黃國昌要不要主張五權分立？","再說公器私用這件事，在場公器私用，我想莫過於國民黨跟民眾黨，我們來看一下，傅崐萁親信戰天下得標2,177萬；民眾黨吳春城前委員任內旗下公司得標2,200萬，貪啊！誰比較貪？傅崐萁占國有地蓋停車場占了800坪；民眾黨黨主席黃國昌占國有地占了28坪，大貪跟小貪。林姿妙涉貪，一審判決12年6個月；高虹安判決7年4個月，好像國民黨比較貪喔！接下來還有傅崐萁任內聯絡簿、金紙、米袋都落款；民眾黨柯文哲市長任內大量採購《柯語錄》，公器私用莫此為甚啊！","講到公器私用，這還是一個不特定的法律概念，那我們來看一下，瀆職罪是不是很明確？就是刑法，我就不請教部長了，貪污治罪條例，瀆職跟貪污我們簡稱貪瀆，法務部出版的圖利罪相關問題之研究說，圖利罪多屬於智慧狡詐型之犯罪，他會注意到過程的合理安排，他會去消除事證的痕跡，避免被發覺，蒐證很困難，證據亦多殘缺。所以，為什麼我們有的立法委員很喜歡當檢調，在立法院質詢都喜歡個案問政，然後就要指導檢調辦案，對貪瀆的辦案興趣這麼高，而所謂的公器私用，到底哪個比較嚴重？","今天的結論，吳檢座就算沒有熟讀憲法，吳召委也要向莊召委學習，莊召委好歹排的幕僚長、秘書長是立法院的周萬來秘書長到本委員會來，就本院相關的事宜，包括立法院遷建事宜來報告，我們吳召委卻排了一個違反我們釋字精神，讓平行於立法院的其他憲政機關，要求指派人員到現場做跟法案、預算無關的備詢，請吳檢座回去讀一讀憲法，請吳召委向莊召委好好的學習、學習。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，你剛剛有一直問我，我一直在想要不要回答你，我怕我回答就打斷你。沒關係，你胡扯也不是第一次了，那就照你說的。","下一位請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。"],["吳委員思瑤：召委，你怎麼這樣講？"],["主席：沒有啊，因為你都說我沒熟讀嘛！沒關係，我就認為你搞不清楚，這互相。","下一位，我們請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162118","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162118","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9e720296edbe9e1fc352232a9b15fab92ff2f9ac16a99deee0004cc94ee87db5845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:04:14 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我們也尊重委員會這邊的決議我個人認為法盡量有明文比較好 否則你讓主管機關去裁量 這個是非常怪的那第二個層次就會進入第二個問題就是說如果他停職 而且都停止給予他的薪給發放但是他最終被判無罪"},{"start":159.818,"end":170.372,"text":"所以要復職 那復職之後是不是就應當來補回他的心脊 對不對來 人事總署 您就直接 專委"},{"start":173.84,"end":196.209,"text":"報告委員因為這一塊我比較不是那麼清楚不過原則上應該是應當就是好這是第二個層次我們也都同意所以剛剛我們在修正的條文有做這個處理但第三個層次問題就來了他在任期內復職之後給予他新級的補發他無罪平反了之後但如果他已經卸任了"},{"start":196.989,"end":205.136,"text":"他卸任了以後 他的官司最後定讞他被判無罪那即便他卸任了 請問他的心脊要不要一併的補發這是剛剛樓下在審議的"},{"start":211.13,"end":232.569,"text":"幾位委員的意見都還沒有一致所以我剛好藉這個機會跟我們今天的聯能政府貪瀆的這些作為相關委員很抱歉這問題我比較不清楚好那我問部長就一個當事者他一度被犯罪嫌疑人他定驗之後恢復了他的清白他的身份是地方首長"},{"start":233.61,"end":246.615,"text":"那應當要補發他的心急不管他是復職的時候是在任或者是他卸任因為有時候官司走很久嘛你認不認為都應當一併的來給予平反包括他的心急的補發"},{"start":249.171,"end":257.596,"text":"這部分如果複指的話複指的話這個法律我不清楚那這部分案理是比較合理是不是應該補發比較合理好謝謝你們的答案因為剛剛在樓下我們跟內政部"},{"start":265.74,"end":293.557,"text":"跟樓下的人事總處的相關人員包括幾位不同政黨立委大家對於這件事情的法律見解不太一致但是我個人認為如果他被定驗之後平反了恢復了他的清白不論他在補發薪金是應當的而不管他是在職或是卸職都應當一併的補發這是我的主張我想部長也認為合理上應當是這樣因為現在法無明文所以我們才要入法"},{"start":295.397,"end":321.098,"text":"這個我們都尊重那個委員的一個立法的一個政策好因為這沒有發生過這可能目前適用就高鴻安這個案例但我們應當好好就法制面來做一下這個演繹謝謝幾位的寶貴意見那進入我今天來另外一個主題來可能是這個局長這邊這中國的直播主狂拍學童到底是單純的治安事件還是國安事件下一頁"},{"start":322.148,"end":339.541,"text":"那陸配拍這個真的是狂拍啊那在我們培育委員5月19號就在法治委員會垂詢過警政署你們認為呢兒少權法、個資法、刑法法案明明都可能觸犯所以要來啟動偵辦5月21號肅小慧委員在陸委會內政委員會也質詢了陸委會他們更認為他恐怕不是只是治安事件"},{"start":349.668,"end":369.134,"text":"而之後呢5月26號台北市警察局已經開始巡線追查中但是即便之前告發的這個案件開始巡線追查但是又有新的一起陸配又開始繼續拍所以說他就是一再的發生一再的發生下一頁"},{"start":370.134,"end":398.907,"text":"而且拍攝的不只學校學校除了涉及對學生的兒少權法或是個資法或是妨礙秘密相關的可能觸犯之外可能學校都是一般大家知道的避難場所會不會有蒐集一些情搜的可能而這一位陸配我剛剛來圖案有揭示出他5月23這位叫阿梅的陸配除了去拍學校他又去拍道路警察執勤的畫面"},{"start":399.867,"end":414.706,"text":"又去拍了松山機場的軍機起降的畫面所以我高度懷疑他已經不止觸犯了我們警政部門認定的治安的犯罪"},{"start":415.114,"end":437.915,"text":"他真的很有可能跟國家安全組織性的犯罪相關所以說我是很擔心啦個資法用哪一條辦妨礙秘密公開直播算妨礙秘密嗎兒少權法是不是能夠成立我實在要尊重檢察官跟後續法官的偵辦"},{"start":439.256,"end":459.839,"text":"但是我在追尋法務部長跟我們調查局長主要是在組織性的國安犯罪的層次那台北市警察局開始辦了那國安的部分是不是調查局也開始同步來跟委員報告我們也高度關切這一個狀況那目前我們也在"},{"start":461.02,"end":476.133,"text":"收集資料中 那有關刑事調查的部分檢察官已經都立案了那我們關切的其實是另外一個國安層面他是不是有境外敵對勢力一個系統性的犯罪的一個狀況"},{"start":477.694,"end":488.101,"text":"所以局長所說第一個你們也高度懷疑可能涉及了國安的疑慮這是第一件事第二件事所以你們也已經啟動了相關的偵辦的動作已經開始進行了"},{"start":492.884,"end":517.87,"text":"那請問是針對一案兩案還是全面性都已經好幾案在辦現在目前已經呈現出來的這些狀況每一案你們都綜合在辦理當中然後會去了解他中間是不是有脈絡的關係好那因為這是這段時間的心生事物那希望能夠在偵辦之後能夠有具體的結果而且能夠有效的嚇阻這是我們共同的責任好辛苦了那個局長請回那部長您繼續留著不好意思"},{"start":521.511,"end":539.287,"text":"今天借這個機會我要再一次針對我一再催生倡議的反歧視法再一次就教於您真的是指紋樓梯想不見人下來下一頁我開始在倡議反歧視法主要是我過去在教育文化部門"},{"start":540.288,"end":552.874,"text":"在校園有非常多歧視原住民族或是歧視身心障礙或者是性別的歧視性言論教育失靈了嗎下一頁"},{"start":554.133,"end":573.627,"text":"但是呢 政治圈更是變本加厲 失言平平從我個人 我個人還在競選的期間就被以我的未婚單身的身份沒有生小孩的身份被嚴重的歧視說吳斯堯會絕子絕孫快50歲了就不能生了"},{"start":579.209,"end":602.365,"text":"一直到我進入這一屆的立法院我認為這一屆的新國會應當是更有進步意識的但是並沒有我們的國民黨的羅姓的委員也對著我說姐姐你這麼老了閃邊去吧這是在我們議事廳發生的事而到最近喔"},{"start":603.496,"end":631.909,"text":"大罷免的浪潮這麼的風起雲湧非常多的委員可能承擔了很大的壓力馬文君委員前幾天的把罷團說成是福壽羅是外來物種謝龍介委員詛咒別人生著小孩沒屁眼林沛翔委員把這些公民朋友把他貶義為社會邊緣人就像是狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西"},{"start":634.444,"end":661.906,"text":"這些是不是都涉及嚴重的歧視性言論這個講的是對有一些的歧視的一些的意涵那包括我們的韓國瑜院長在這個辦公室朝野協商對著柯建民總召說出要吃藥之類的或者是對於我們執政黨的三位黨鞭說出一龍二鳳這種話是不是嚴重的歧視性言論"},{"start":663.619,"end":687.185,"text":"這個歧視的言論我想這部分我們都是不贊成的那我們覺得在人與人之間的互動應該要以那種彼此禮貌讓人家覺得很不會反感的這些更重要的是歧視性的言論要關乎的是"},{"start":689.199,"end":704.631,"text":"當事者他的感受是什麼就像我們對於性騷擾這種言語騷擾一樣的如果被歧視被言語攻擊或是被人身攻擊的一方他感受到非常清楚的不愉快非常清楚的"},{"start":705.091,"end":722.405,"text":"被歧視就像我跟陳培宇委員我們就在這個場域被韓國瑜院長說民進黨團一龍二鳳我們當事人尤其是女性我們聽起來是完全對於性別嚴重的歧視我們當然認為一個立法院的院長不應當有這種言論"},{"start":724.807,"end":739.202,"text":"好 個案我們打住不再討論但是法制面如果新的國會依舊是這樣子的不斷的去涉及歧視言論的氾濫我們是立法者"},{"start":740.47,"end":751.934,"text":"所以呢下一頁我們的反歧視法台灣到底要等多久我們要讓人權條約國內法化就像今天朝偉在排的這個速攤的專報"},{"start":755.575,"end":772.248,"text":"我們也簽署了聯合國的反蘇灘公約嘛所以我們把基於聯合國的反蘇灘的所有的作為我們也國內法化我們推動了陽光法案等等啊但是一樣啊國際也在倡議反歧視法或者是稱為平等法都要回應國際的人權公約但是台灣還要等多久呢 夏業"},{"start":779.301,"end":787.153,"text":"也要落實聯合國SDGs人人平等減少不平等的目標台灣還要等多久呢下一頁"},{"start":788.496,"end":813.102,"text":"反歧視的條款散列在各法現行的法律欠缺一致性總共散列在至少七個法律所以我最近是非常感同身受因為立法院作為國會一個應當有進步思維應當有非常的平等思維而且作為國人表率的國會殿堂"},{"start":814.282,"end":834.135,"text":"卻一再的發生這種歧視的言論而最近大罷免的浪潮這些被罷免的委員們不能因為你身處政治的壓力當中就口不擇言啊對於公民朋友行使他珍貴的憲法父權你卻用扶壽羅這種邊緣人這種"},{"start":838.393,"end":852.758,"text":"狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西這種在嚴重的鄙視鄙疑公民耶我們是一票一票選出來的沒有公民支持我們我們今天怎麼會有這個條件我們會有這個珍貴的機會站在這裡問政呢"},{"start":855.993,"end":879.858,"text":"所以部長 夏業 曾經一度是內政部要研議反歧視法或平等法後來我知道是法務部開始接手了 是嗎這個反歧視法是形成性平處的一個法規好 所以現在完全也沒有內政部 也沒有法務部因為最早 夏業 最早是法務部提出來的條文有67個條文"},{"start":882.492,"end":893.84,"text":"所以後來是移給行政院的平等處嗎人權期轉型正義處所以法務部再也沒有參與了嗎我們會這部分我們"},{"start":896.109,"end":915.194,"text":"退 我們會去那邊開會那最近開會開得怎麼樣我講反歧視法講了一年了他那個在113年5月2日有辦理預告那另外在10月有預告超過這麼久的時間了他在10月有延伸會議那另外現在在重整各界的一個意見"},{"start":916.519,"end":940.531,"text":"那法務部您認為因為你們過去是involved最深的從2019你們委外研究而且過去的條文平等法67個條文是你們提出來的草擬的可不可能您預測一下我們可不可能下個會期反歧視法或是今年之內能夠有一個國家高度的版本我個人我一向沒有要畏快而快"},{"start":941.391,"end":964.048,"text":"我自己的版本其實準備很久但我一直還沒有送出來是因為我要等行政院的院版我希望這樣一個大家要有社會的共識畢竟言論的管控或言論在要用法律去限制它就像我們在同樣的司法法治委員會國家安全跟言論自由怎麼去把界限定清楚同樣的"},{"start":965.049,"end":987.784,"text":"歧視的言論他某種程度也是在言論自由的這個範疇裡面但是你不能夠去傷及他人的情感不能夠去貶抑他人進行這種言語的暴力的霸凌所以我認為我同意要嚴謹同意要時間換取空間但是也已經等了一年半了他這個草案是有啦"},{"start":988.553,"end":1002.981,"text":"是有草案 他那個草案是有六章四十六條好 那我非常希望我們下個會期下個會期能夠看到行政院院版那您所知道院版未來這個法案應該是內政司法法治委員會主審吧應該是應該是我們跟內政聯席嗎應該是"},{"start":1012.403,"end":1040.182,"text":"主管機關是誰因為他是行政院的那個那個人群組嘛對啊所以這就是一個問題啦好沒有關係我非常期待下個會期我們不能放任歧視性的言論一再的氾濫我們需要法治我們需要社會更多元的對話我也希望已經等了一年半了我們今年會有好的消息或是多努力一點我們明年能夠來完成立法好嗎大家一起加油謝謝"},{"start":1042.588,"end":1042.609,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":764,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時4分）謝謝溫柔、和藹的召委，平常就要保持這個樣子，我們都努力，謝謝。好，請法務部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：調查局長。"],["主席：局長。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後我請人事總處。"],["主席：人總。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安。剛剛在內政委員會，我們同步在審議地方制度法的一些修正條文，當中有關第六十一條的修正草案，我想剛好跟今天召委所排的肅貪，然後打造廉能政府的部分有關，所以我就教於幾位。現在地方制度法的規定，如果犯了選罷法第一百十七條，重點就是貪污治罪條例那種重大的貪瀆案件，被判刑之後是停職，那停職的期間是否應當發予薪給？我剛剛在內政委員會才知道，是法無明文，所以過去是依人事總處的一個函文，授權給主管機關也就是內政部，去看看被判刑的地方首長是否因為被停職而影響他的基本生活，以及要去看他的違法、失職的程度有多高，再來決定在他停職期間是完全停發薪給，或者是給予半薪，這是現在法無明文。所以內政委員會在審地方制度法的時候，幾位委員共同提出的修正動議，就是認為只要觸犯這一類的貪污治罪條例被判刑，雖然沒有到最終定讞，在停職期間都一律停止核發薪給，你們同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我尊重委員的提案。"],["吳委員思瑤：那人事總處同意嗎？"],["江專門委員美芳：委員好。我們也尊重委員會的決議。"],["吳委員思瑤：我個人認為法儘量有明文比較好，否則你讓主管機關去裁量，這是非常怪的。第二個層次就會進入第二個問題，就是說如果他停職，而且都停止給予薪給發放，但是他最終被判無罪，所以要復職，那復職之後，是不是就應當補回他的薪給，對不對？人事總處專委，您就直接說明。"],["江專門委員美芳：報告委員，這塊我比較不是那麼清楚，不過原則上應該是。"],["吳委員思瑤：應當就是，好，這是第二個層次，我們也都同意，所以剛剛我們在修正的條文有做這個處理。但第三個層次問題就來了，他在任期內復職之後，給予他薪給補發，在無罪平反了之後，如果他已經卸任了，卸任了以後官司最後定讞被判無罪，即便他卸任了，請問他的薪給要不要一併補發？這是剛剛樓下在審議的，幾位委員的意見都還沒有一致，所以我剛好藉這個機會問，因為跟我們今天的廉能政府因貪瀆的這些作為相關。"],["江專門委員美芳：委員，很抱歉，這問題我比較不清楚，抱歉。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我問部長，就一個當事者，他一度被認為是犯罪嫌疑人，定讞之後恢復了他的清白，他的身分是地方首長，應當補發他的薪給，不管復職的時候是在任或卸任，因為有時候官司走很久嘛，你認不認為都應當一併地給予平反，包括他的薪給補發？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果是復職的話，這個法律我不清楚，這部分按理……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，按理是不是應該補發？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是比較合理。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝你們的答案。剛剛在樓下，我們跟內政部、人事總處的相關人員，包括幾位不同政黨立委，大家對於這件事情的法律見解不太一致，但是我個人認為，如果他被定讞之後平反了，恢復了他的清白，補發薪給是應當的，不管他是在職或卸職都應當一併補發，這是我的主張，我想部長也認為合理上應當是這樣。因為現在法無明文，所以我們才要入法。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們都尊重委員的立法政策。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，因為這沒有發生過，可能目前適用就高虹安這個案例，但我們應當好好就法制面做一下研議，謝謝幾位的寶貴意見。","進入我今天另外一個主題，可能是局長這邊。中國的直播主狂拍學童，這到底是單純的治安事件，還是國安事件？陸配真的是狂拍，培瑜委員5月19號就在司法及法制委員會垂詢過警政署，你們認為都可能觸犯兒少權法、個資法、刑法、妨害秘密，所以要啟動偵辦；5月21號蘇巧慧委員在內政委員會也質詢了陸委會，他們更認為它恐怕不只是治安事件；之後5月26號臺北市警察局已經開始循線追查中，即便之前告發的這個案件已開始循線追查，但是又有新的一起陸配開始繼續拍。所以就是一再的發生、一再的發生，而且拍攝的不只學校，學校除了涉及對學生的兒少權法、個資法，或是可能觸犯妨害秘密之外，學校都是一般大家知道的避難場所，會不會有一些情蒐的可能？而這一位陸配剛剛投影片的圖案有揭示，在5月23日這位叫阿梅的陸配，除了去拍學校，又去拍道路警察執勤的畫面，又去拍松山機場軍機起降的畫面，所以我高度懷疑，他已經不只觸犯了警政部門認定的治安犯罪，他真的很有可能跟國家安全組織性的犯罪相關，所以我是很擔心，個資法用哪一條辦？公開直播算妨害秘密嗎？兒少權法是不是能夠成立？這要尊重檢察官跟後續法官的偵辦，但是我在垂詢法務部長跟調查局長，主要是在組織性國安犯罪的層次，臺北市警察局開始辦了，國安的部分，是不是調查局也開始同步進行？"],["陳局長白立：是，跟委員報告，我們也高度關切這一個狀況，目前我們也在蒐集資料中，有關刑事調查的部分檢察官都已經立案了，其實調查局關切的是另外一個國安層面，它是不是有境外敵對勢力的系統性犯罪狀況？"],["吳委員思瑤：所以局長所說，你們也高度懷疑可能涉及國安的疑慮，這是第一件事；第二件事，所以你們也已經啟動了相關的偵辦動作？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：已經開始進行了，請問是針對一案、兩案，還是全面性都已經好幾案在辦？"],["陳局長白立：全面，對，現在目前已經呈現出來的這些狀況，我們全部……"],["吳委員思瑤：每一案你們都綜合辦理當中？"],["陳局長白立：對，然後會去了解它中間是不是有脈絡的關係。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，因為這是這段時間的新生事物，希望在偵辦之後能夠有具體的結果，而且能夠有效的嚇阻，這是我們共同的責任，辛苦了，局長請回。"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長，您繼續留著，不好意思。今天藉這個機會，我要再一次針對我一再催生倡議的反歧視法，再一次就教於您，因為真的是只聞樓梯響，不見人下來。我開始在倡議反歧視法，主要是我過去在教育及文化部門，在校園有非常多歧視原住民族，或是歧視身心障礙，或者是性別的歧視性言論，教育失靈了嗎？但是政治圈更是變本加厲，失言頻頻，從我個人還在競選的期間，就以我未婚單身的身分、沒有生小孩的身分，被嚴重歧視說吳思瑤會絕子絕孫，快五十歲就不能生了，一直到我進入這一屆的立法院，我認為這一屆的新國會應當是更有進步意識的，但是並沒有。我們國民黨羅姓委員也對著我說「姐姐你這麼老了，閃邊去吧！」這是在我們議事廳發生的事。而到最近大罷免的浪潮，這麼的風起雲湧，非常多委員可能承擔了很大的壓力。馬文君委員前幾天把罷團說成是福壽螺、是外來物種；謝龍介委員詛咒別人生的小孩沒屁眼；林沛祥委員把這些公民朋友貶抑為社會邊緣人，就像是狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西，這些是不是都涉及嚴重的歧視性言論？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這樣講是有一些歧視的意涵。"],["吳委員思瑤：包括我們的韓國瑜院長在這個辦公室朝野協商，對著柯建銘總召說出「要吃藥」，或者是對於我們執政黨的三位黨鞭說出「一龍二鳳」這種話，是不是嚴重的歧視性言論？"],["鄭部長銘謙：歧視的言論我們都是不贊成的，人與人之間的互動應該要以……"],["吳委員思瑤：彼此……"],["鄭部長銘謙：彼此禮貌，讓人家覺得不會反感的……"],["吳委員思瑤：更重要的是，歧視性言論關乎的是當事者的感受是什麼，就像我們對於性騷擾、言語騷擾一樣，如果被歧視、被言語攻擊，或是被人身攻擊的一方非常清楚地感受到不愉快、非常清楚被歧視，就像我跟陳培瑜委員在這個場域被韓國瑜院長說民進黨團「一龍二鳳」，身為當事人，尤其是女性，我們聽起來是對於性別嚴重的歧視，我們當然認為立法院的院長不應當有這種言論。","好，個案我們打住不再討論，但是在法制面，如果新的國會依舊是這樣子不斷涉及歧視言論的氾濫，我們是立法者，我們的反歧視法，臺灣到底要等多久？我們要讓人權條約國內法化，就像今天召委排肅貪的專報，我們也簽署了聯合國的反肅貪公約，基於聯合國反肅貪的所有作為我們也國內法化，推動了陽光法案等等。但是一樣，國際也在倡議反歧視法，或者是稱為平等法，都要回應國際的人權公約，臺灣還要等多久呢？要落實聯合國SDGs人人平等，減少不平等的目標，臺灣還要等多久呢？反歧視的條款散列在各法，現行的法律欠缺一致性，總共散列在至少七個法律。我最近非常感同身受，立法院作為國會應當有進步思維、應當有非常平等的思維，而且作為國人表率的國會殿堂，卻一再發生這種歧視的言論。","最近大罷免的浪潮，這些被罷免的委員們，不能因為你身處政治的壓力當中就口不擇言！對於公民朋友行使珍貴的憲法賦權，卻用「福壽螺」、「邊緣人」、「狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西」這些話嚴重鄙視、鄙夷公民。我們是一票一票被選出來的，沒有公民支持我們，今天怎麼會有條件、有珍貴的機會站在這裡問政？所以部長，曾經一度是內政部要研議反歧視法或平等法，後來我知道法務部開始接手了是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個反歧視法是行政性平處的法規。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，所以現在沒有內政部，也沒有法務部，最早是法務部提出來，有67個條文，後來是移給行政院的平等處？"],["鄭部長銘謙：人權及轉型正義處。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以法務部再也沒有參與了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會去開會。"],["吳委員思瑤：最近開會開得怎麼樣？我講反歧視法講了一年。"],["鄭部長銘謙：在113年5月2日有辦理預告，另外在10月……"],["吳委員思瑤：也預告超過這麼久的時間了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：在10月有延商會議，現在在綜整各界的意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：法務部過去是involve最深的，從2019你們委外研究，而且過去的條文，平等法67個條文是你們草擬的，您預測一下，反歧視法可不可能在下個會期，或是今年之內，能夠有一個國家高度的版本？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們樂見，因為……"],["吳委員思瑤：我個人一向沒有要為快而快，我自己的版本其實準備很久，但我一直還沒有送出來，是因為我要等行政院的院版，我希望大家要有社會的共識，畢竟言論的管控或言論要用法律去限制，就像我們同樣在司法及法制委員會，國家安全跟言論自由怎麼把界限定清楚。歧視的言論某種程度也是在言論自由的範疇裡面，但是你不能夠傷及他人的情感，不能夠貶抑他人進行言語暴力的霸凌。所以我同意要嚴謹，同意要時間換取空間，但是也已經等了一年半了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是有草案，草案有6章46條。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我非常希望下個會期能夠看到行政院版。就您所知，未來院版的法案應該是司法及法制委員會主審？應該是我們跟內政聯席嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該是……"],["吳委員思瑤：主管機關是誰？因為它是行政院的committee，所以這就是一個問題啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，沒有關係，我非常期待下個會期，我們不能放任歧視性的言論一再地氾濫，我們需要法治，我們需要社會更多元的對話，我也希望已經等了一年半，我們今年會有好的消息，或是多努力一點，明年能夠完成立法，好嗎？大家一起加油，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162117","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162117","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9eb3addbdd828bbc3b52232a9b15fab92f821bb1a47d55fe3eaf890c8298699f945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:45:15 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我是帶頭反對"},{"start":182.635,"end":185.657,"text":"本來就沒有那麼多 後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多隻新北會更多 那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的 當然"},{"start":194.042,"end":211.353,"text":"敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹啊他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通啊"},{"start":213.314,"end":233.643,"text":"但是呢 把大量的資訊 老百姓的行蹤 各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話 這就很糟糕譬如說 大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的 大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念"},{"start":235.023,"end":244.887,"text":"這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮"},{"start":247.964,"end":254.626,"text":"你看 這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法 原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛現在問說是不是你簽的 花蓮 欸 不 直接要求民政處長的帶頭違法 這個標準的就是查水表啦叫顧政人員 叫IU去按門鈴 問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人"},{"start":272.934,"end":280.097,"text":"這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重去違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投副政資料現在保證機關自己會去發明"},{"start":295.484,"end":306.936,"text":"自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個補破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍"},{"start":318.581,"end":327.348,"text":"你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個筆對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦 非常糟糕那第三個 你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門report report你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇"},{"start":343.812,"end":351.532,"text":"我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方"},{"start":353.294,"end":361.278,"text":"也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你就知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團"},{"start":377.921,"end":388.721,"text":"保護人民 政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民 這哪通這種不法是更可怕 更可怕"},{"start":391.238,"end":412.378,"text":"任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊 多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來負有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說 柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊 你法務部"},{"start":416.341,"end":424.764,"text":"你不是主管機關但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔這是你們的慷慨啦你們也說兩句 大家評判一下說你們沒建議 怎麼比較好我等一下還要問人總耶你們人總 我覺得你們的培訓的失敗"},{"start":433.089,"end":457.381,"text":"失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不在你說謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是 我知道像我講一法二部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這樣一個偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然"},{"start":460.322,"end":477.526,"text":"竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的一個維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個"},{"start":481.327,"end":494.755,"text":"一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦 我覺得補貼應該就是"},{"start":498.869,"end":512.276,"text":"這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說 當一個指引之後去跟他們說任總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說"},{"start":515.758,"end":520.381,"text":"其實在培訓的過程裡面 你也有很多網站 現在都在說AI你們說的就有很多人 我看你們有二十幾萬人去看你們各自的這個也應該去上網 創一個比較有趣的讓公務人員去知道 要是有這個不可以 這個是設法 這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於 你像譬如說"},{"start":540.433,"end":544.457,"text":"去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台喔公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的頻繁的部分啊是不是該想想也想想辦法"},{"start":561.762,"end":583.558,"text":"是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500"},{"start":593.104,"end":606.69,"text":"515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦"},{"start":620.216,"end":642.632,"text":"這也不好啦 因為公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說 局長那個罷免 那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛剛去指出這一些的 就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用 還是它刻意違法 很明顯"},{"start":643.854,"end":666.36,"text":"有公務機關裡面的 它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了 全部都放棄了 那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法啦開什麼玩笑嘛 人死他會起來 人死他命會沾起來這個一定有人不要亂啦 現在在質詢 失礼喔"},{"start":669.315,"end":679.78,"text":"我最後要講啦 就是說其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦 柏庭你給柏庭聽一下我們大法官603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會內審全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒 你看"},{"start":693.766,"end":704.093,"text":"美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆琐碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求"},{"start":723.846,"end":752.073,"text":"好不好 不然你們做一個 或是做一個各機關涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的喔我們也趕趕到重重的 要不然你們沒理啦 我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說 邀請那到底是法律知識不足 還是真的是真的要去違法的我們不如我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識 那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":756.269,"end":758.4,"text":"我想請問一下吳委員 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麻煩法務部長 廉政署署長羅委員 那個立委是要監督官員不是護航我現在咳嗽 不要讓我笑好 請教一下這個"},{"start":31.153,"end":52.841,"text":"監察院的李敬義秘書長他用公務車接送愛泉美容還把公務車當成Uber E-way自駕送餐那他用一句思慮不周然後本來想交代過去啦但看火越燒越大不敢到立法院接受質詢就坦誠有負職務廉潔標準然後匆匆請辭秘書長"},{"start":57.483,"end":77.481,"text":"那我剛剛也看到前面有多位委員針對公務車使用的部分 大家有很多的一些意見跟看法那我想請教一下 部長跟署長你們都有配公務車嘛 對不對有然後請問一下 那個 先請問署長好了請問您會把公務車拿去送愛泉美容嗎"},{"start":78.609,"end":106.843,"text":"我也沒有養狗沒有養狗不會做私人的事情不會做私人事那所以也不會把公務車拿去當Uber E-way自家送餐嗎我們完全遵照行政院辦的車輛使用規定不可能的事情對不對 部長這應該不用問你們這兩件事都不可能在你身上發生吧我沒有養狗你就算有養狗有養寵物也不會發生這種事吧這個我也不會這樣對嘛 不可能嘛"},{"start":108.427,"end":130.798,"text":"我跟各位講 剛剛不管是藍綠的委員 白的委員 都有講標準問題但有些東西就是真的是離譜嘛把公務車拿去送愛犬去美容 把公務車拿來當Uber E我也當過 我也有派過公務車啊我在總務府當副秘書長的時候 這也不可能發生的事情啊"},{"start":131.94,"end":151.176,"text":"那我不知道為什麼我們的偉大的李俊逸就會發生這種事情但是沒有關係 他個人的行為我們今天問的是法律的問題事實上過去很多關於公務車使用的一些案例那我們來看看他的法律的結果是什麼我來請教兩位首長"},{"start":153.206,"end":180.408,"text":"我想請教一下剛兩位都說你們不會把公務車拿來做私人的使用當作私人汽車使用不會嘛對不對那你知道雲林縣2021年有一位戴姓的消防局長他被指將局長坐車當作私人汽車使用遭監察院彈劾那你知道最後法律的結果是什麼嗎他面臨什麼樣法律的結果請問部長知道嗎"},{"start":182.646,"end":194.862,"text":"這個我不清楚我告訴你懲戒法院判他休職兩年刑事部分依公務員假借職務上機會犯背信罪判刑一年緩刑三年這是這個案例的結果"},{"start":197.918,"end":217.098,"text":"那2021年也發生一個台北市警局交通分隊的歐姓小隊長騎公務車 機車與友人參與後 又騎車返家休息那我想請問署長 你知道他最後的法律結果是什麼嗎"},{"start":219.901,"end":247.466,"text":"檢察官認為他涉犯公務員假借植物機會背信罪那因為認罪無前科啦所以給予還起訴一年然後再來2021年台南市政府民族事務委員會主委汪志敏因為搭乘公務車前往大學進修參加婚宴、壽宴、私人餐敘我想請教一下請問那個署長你會搭公務車到"},{"start":248.346,"end":252.589,"text":"參加大學進修嗎會去參加婚宴嗎搭公務車原則上不會部長會嗎這個要看那個業務的性質有點模糊空間啦會搭公務車去參加壽宴嗎"},{"start":273.278,"end":289.307,"text":"這個就是要看業務性質如果是這個這個受驗的話這個屬於那個機關業務聯繫有關的這些的話那當然那會搭公務車參加私人餐敘嗎私人餐敘這個不會搭公務車當私人餐敘那你也要看這餐敘的性質對不對"},{"start":291.974,"end":319.65,"text":"部長我跟你講我沒有價值判斷這些行為到底是該不該當所謂的一個形式的一個犯罪所以我才問說兩位你們處理的規則是什麼那很明顯不會搭公共車去大學進修嘛 對不對不會啦 就算有這個進修的機會也不會搭公共車去大學進修嘛但是婚宴 壽宴 私人參許那可能就要看業務性質屬性了嘛 對不對但是"},{"start":320.899,"end":326.563,"text":"台南地檢署是以背信罪提起公訴這件事情 然後判處20萬罰金再來 2022年屏東縣警察局"},{"start":335.696,"end":353.017,"text":"莊信芬局長在休假期間駕駛公務車到南投縣等地訪友及採購物品我想請問一下署長你會在休假期間駕著公務車去外縣市訪友然後採購物品嗎"},{"start":355.851,"end":381.836,"text":"市議上我上下班都是自己開車啦我們的公務車的部分運用上我們會嚴守用公務的部分來判斷非常謝謝 部長呢也是嘛 不會嘛 對不對不會嘛然後他也被拔官移送地檢署偵辦然後2023年基隆市警察局無信保防科長使用公務車接送七小兩位會用公務車接送七小嗎"},{"start":382.984,"end":410.426,"text":"不會啦 對不對不會嘛 對不對所以這個也是一條線嘛那他也被依詐欺罪移送基隆地檢署偵辦2024年監察院通過彈劾金房部林姓參謀長因為他讓到金門遊玩的親友搭公務車你會讓你的親友出去玩搭公務車嗎也不會嘛連問都不用問嘛 對不對這不可能的事嘛他公器私用被彈劾啦"},{"start":411.167,"end":428.802,"text":"然後今年1月 松山分局的張姓袁景 開公務車繞道送蛋糕給過生日的女友然後想請問 會開公務車繞道送蛋糕給夫人嗎 會不會 也不會嘛 也不會嘛 對不對 會嗎 也不會嘛 對不對"},{"start":435.745,"end":457.602,"text":"那可是呢 這個行為就遭到台北地檢署 依公務員違背職務損害他人利益等罪 給予緩起訴處分 需繳酷一萬元我跟你講 這太多啦 我講不完啦 我講不完啦可是今天為什麼我要講這件事情我跟部長 跟我們的署長講 確實我承認啦 剛剛前面有幾位委員也有講到"},{"start":458.806,"end":483.161,"text":"他有一些標準的問題 好比方你剛剛講參敘那跟參敘到底跟你的業務關聯度是如何可能他有點模糊地帶要釐清對不對可是這零零總總我跟你講我沒有看到比載愛犬去美容把車 公務車當Uber E大概在所有攤檔裡面 這兩個我們禮具最扯欸 沒錯吧"},{"start":485.049,"end":510.76,"text":"你去參敘齁 你還可以講說這參敘跟我業務也有關係啊 對不對那你參加婚宴 壽宴我也可以說跟我業務也有關係啊 對不對部長你可能也覺得說這個可能跟業務有關係啊可是你把你的愛犬拿去用公車去美容我想要請問署長囉按照這些通通被判刑 通通被法辦的標準你今天要不要被判啊"},{"start":512.66,"end":535.737,"text":"委員報告 目前這幾個案件都有告發到台北地檢署會不會偵辦我真的就是要看著啦因為太離譜嘛確實我剛才還是強調前面很多的委員在講公車使用有每個地方的標準規則可能不一樣但是沒有一個地方會跟你講說我可以帶著愛犬去美容啦應該沒有這個標準吧署長"},{"start":537.162,"end":560.094,"text":"不會有這個標準吧標準就是要符合公務啦就是跟公務有關對啊 所以我今天在這邊我要跟部長說外界確實在看著這件事情你有些邊緣地帶大家還要再去觀察一下因為這還要釐清比如釐清餐敘的性質 釐清活動的性質 對不對"},{"start":562.199,"end":589.758,"text":"送狗 送牠的愛犬去美容把車子 公務車當Uber E來去用我看也不用去釐清什麼性質啦純粹就是公器私用如果別的人公器私用都沒事 我覺得那是一回事但是很抱歉 我剛剛念了那麼多還沒念完咧那麼多的案例裡面我就要問到底李俊逸這個我們這個是怎麼樣他是把這個"},{"start":591.291,"end":615.895,"text":"把這個他家的愛犬也當成監察委員了嗎也當成是在去經辦業務嗎所以因此在這邊我們是要看看到底我們今天我們的檢方啊現在已經告發了嘛 廉政署這邊也接到告發了嘛對不對沒有 那是民眾 就是直接民代直接到北檢去告發對啊 所以大家就等著看啦"},{"start":617.168,"end":644.93,"text":"如果我剛剛念的這些都有事情的話我真的就要等著看李靜韻到底有沒有事情啊不是持官就了事 沒錯吧請問部長這種法律的刑事問題不是持官就結束的嘛那這個就是由檢察官來做了解調查對不對 我想問署長如果犯了所謂的不連結貪污或者是背信一些刑事上的一些公務員獨職的問題辭職就可以 責任就結束了嗎"},{"start":647.886,"end":667.828,"text":"它的案件調查其實要看構成要件因為在之前有很多的案子其實是有移送然後判刑也有一些沒有移送它的標準你完全講到重點了完全的標準就是說它有一個用點我告訴你你完全講到重點了那標準真的浮動啊"},{"start":668.803,"end":693.997,"text":"不是 跟委員講就是他其中有一個我來跟你講我剛剛有一個我們有問的2018年時任移民署長就中央級官員然後帶著妻子搭乘公務車旅遊你知道他的結果是什麼就辭職而已 對不對所以我就要講同樣的情形在地方的時候他就判刑"},{"start":694.98,"end":722.351,"text":"那中央好像奇怪啦 就沒事啦跟委員報告一下 他那個在車輛使用上他有首長的一個用車的一個部分還有一般派遣的部分那派遣的部分會有派車單跟油料的一個問題那所以說在這個部分上會比較牽涉到那個就相關我們剛剛談到的那個部分當然首長的部分也必須要去觀察啦是不是有公務人員的違法我當然知道啦 我就說過齁如果有些派讓齁"},{"start":723.672,"end":746.63,"text":"就像我剛剛講餐巿、壽宴、婚宴那中間到底他算跟你業務的關聯度如何啊那是有各樣的去釐清啦這一點我也認同啦可是就像剛剛前面兩位講的嘛我們在質詢過程當中不用再為禁慾再去找任何的一些緩狹的空間了啦這兩件事情就赤裸裸的公器私用已經是踩到底了啦"},{"start":748.035,"end":772.276,"text":"我跟你講我還是那句話我剛念那麼多的案例沒有比他更離譜的啦有嗎有哪個比送狗去美容離譜的哪一個有比送狗去美容離譜的把車子當Uber Eats離譜的有一個警察也就是騎著車拎個蛋糕去給女朋友就有事啦他有像我們李靖鈺帶著狗去美容嗎"},{"start":774.741,"end":793.847,"text":"他是繞個路送個蛋糕去 也有事啊所以不要說今天這公務車當然標準 說真的 大家好好去想想標準不一致的問題也是個問題可是有些核心的地帶就是明顯有 按照過去這些判準判例我真的拜託啦 檢查機關"},{"start":796.818,"end":812.785,"text":"不要讓大家覺得說好像又遇到民進黨的要員李靜韻是民進黨的要員喔大佬喔遇到民進黨的要員又沒事了重點是今天質詢完因為辦案還需要時間啦對不對辦辦辦一個月兩個月半年之後一年之後發現風頭過了悄悄悄悄又沒事了"},{"start":821.548,"end":836.937,"text":"這是我們經常會有人覺得說今天辦案標準不一致讓大家會對司法沒有信心的原因所以拜託啦 努力一點好不好這是請署長跟部長能夠去看看社會大眾的期待 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時31分）主席，有請法務部長，還有廉政署署長。"],["主席：好，麻煩法務部部長、廉政署署長。","羅委員，立委要監督官員，不是護航。"],["羅委員智強：我在咳嗽，不要讓我笑。","請教一下，監察院的李俊俋秘書長用公務車接送愛犬美容，還把公務車當成Uber Eats為自家送餐，他本來想用一句「思慮不周」交代過去，但看見火越燒越大，不敢到立法院接受質詢，就坦承有負職務廉潔標準，然後匆匆請辭秘書長。我剛剛也看到前面有多位委員，針對公務車使用的部分，大家有很多的意見跟看法，我想請教一下部長跟署長，你們都有配公務車嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["羅委員智強：然後請問一下，先請問署長好了，請問您會把公務車拿去送愛犬美容嗎？"],["馮署長成：我也沒有養狗，不會做私人的事情。"],["羅委員智強：沒有養狗，不會做私人的事，所以也不會把公務車拿去當Uber Eats為自家送餐嘛？"],["馮署長成：我們完全遵照行政院頒的車輛使用規定。"],["羅委員智強：不可能的事情嘛，對不對？部長，這應該不用問你，這兩件事都不可能在你身上發生吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有養狗。"],["羅委員智強：你就算有養狗，有養寵物，也不會發生這種事吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會這樣用。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，不可能嘛！我跟各位講，剛剛不管是藍綠的委員，或是白的委員，都有講標準的問題，但有些東西真的是離譜嘛！把公務車拿去送愛犬去美容，把公務車拿來當Uber Eats。我也有派過公務車，我在總統府當副秘書長的時候，這也是不可能發生的事情啊，我不知道為什麼我們偉大的李俊俋就會發生這種事情。但是沒有關係，這是他個人的行為，我們今天問的是法律的問題。","事實上過去很多關於公務車使用的案例，我們來看看他的法律結果是什麼，我來請教兩位首長，剛剛兩位都說你們不會把公務車拿來做私人使用、當作私人汽車使用，不會嘛，對不對？好，那你知道，雲林縣2021年有一位戴姓的消防局長，他被指將局長座車當作私人汽車使用，遭監察院彈劾，你知道最後的法律結果是什麼嗎？他面臨什麼樣的法律結果，請問部長知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，懲戒法院判他休職兩年，刑事部分依公務員假借職務上機會犯背信罪，判刑一年、緩刑三年，這是這個案例的結果。","2021年也發生臺北市警局交通分隊的歐姓小隊長，騎公務機車與友人餐敘後，又騎車返家休息。我想請問署長，你知道他最後的法律結果是什麼嗎？"],["馮署長成：我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：檢察官認為他涉犯公務員假借職務機會背信罪，因為認罪且無前科，所以給予緩起訴一年。","再來，2021年臺南市政府民族事務委員會主委汪志敏，搭乘公務車前往大學進修、參加婚宴、壽宴、私人餐敘。我想請教一下，請問署長，你會搭公務車參加所謂大學進修嗎？部長？署長？"],["馮署長成：我不會，而且我也沒有去大學進修。"],["羅委員智強：會搭公務車去參加婚宴嗎？"],["馮署長成：原則上不會，我們……"],["羅委員智強：部長會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要看業務的性質。"],["羅委員智強：看業務性質喔，有點模糊空間啦。會搭公務車去參加壽宴嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是要看業務性質，如果這個壽宴屬於跟那個機關業務聯繫有關的話，當然這個……"],["羅委員智強：會搭公務車參加私人餐敘嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：私人餐敘？我不會搭公務車參加私人餐敘。"],["羅委員智強：那你也要看那餐敘性質嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：看餐敘的性質啦。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你講，我沒有價值判斷這些行為到底該不該當所謂的刑事犯罪，所以我才問兩位你們處理的規則是什麼，但很明顯不會搭公務車去大學進修，對不對？不會啦，就算有進修的機會，也不會搭公務車去大學進修。但是婚宴、壽宴、私人餐敘，那可能就要看業務性質屬性了，對不對？但是這件事情臺南地檢署是以背信罪提起公訴，然後判處20萬的罰金。","再來，2022年屏東縣警察局莊姓分局長，在休假期間駕駛公務車到南投縣等地訪友及採購物品。我想請問一下署長，你會在休假期間駕著公務車，去外縣市訪友然後採購物品嗎？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，我上下班都是自己開車，在公務車的運用上，我們會嚴守用於公務的部分。"],["羅委員智強：對，好，非常謝謝。部長呢？也是不會嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["羅委員智強：不會嘛。然後他也被拔官移送地檢署偵辦。然後2023年，基隆市警察局吳姓保防科長使用公務車接送妻小。兩位會用公務車接送妻小嗎？不會啦，對不對？不會嘛，對不對？所以這個也是一條線嘛。他也被依詐欺罪移送基隆地檢署偵辦。2024年監察院通過彈劾金防部林姓參謀長，因為他讓到金門遊玩的親友搭公務車。你會讓你的親友出去玩搭公務車嗎？也不會嘛，連問都不用問，對不對？這不可能的事嘛！他公器私用被彈劾。","然後今年1月，松山分局的張姓員警開公務車繞道送蛋糕給過生日的女友。想請問會開公務車繞道送蛋糕給夫人嗎？會不會？也不會嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會。"],["羅委員智強：會嗎？也不會嘛，對不對？可是這個行為就遭到臺北地檢署依公務員違背職務損害他人利益等罪給予緩起訴處分，須繳庫1萬元。我跟你講，這個案例太多了，我講不完，可是今天為什麼我要講這件事情？我跟部長跟署長講，確實我承認剛剛前面有幾位委員也有講到，這有一些標準的問題，比方你剛剛講餐敘，那個餐敘到底跟你的業務關聯度是如何，可能有點模糊地帶要釐清，對不對？可是這林林總總，我跟你講，我沒有看到比載愛犬去美容，把公務車當Uber Eats，大概在所有案例裡面，我們李俊俋最扯，沒錯吧？你去餐敘，你還可以講這個餐敘跟我的業務也有關係，對不對？你參加婚宴、壽宴，我也可以說跟我的業務也有關係，對不對？部長，你可能也覺得這個可能跟業務有關係，可是你把你的愛犬用公務車載去美容，我想請問署長，按照這些通通被判刑、通通被法辦的標準，李俊俋要不要被判啊？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，目前這幾個案件都有告發到臺北地檢署，他們會偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：對，我真的就是要看著，因為太離譜嘛。確實我還是要強調，前面很多委員在講公務車的使用，每個地方的標準、規則可能不一樣，但是沒有一個地方會跟你說可以帶著愛犬去美容，應該沒有這個標準吧！署長，不會有這個標準吧！"],["馮署長成：標準就是要符合公務，就是跟公務有關。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！所以我今天在這邊要跟部長說，外界確實在看著這件事情，有些邊緣地帶大家還要再去觀察一下，因為這還要去釐清，比如說釐清餐敘的性質、釐清活動的性質，對不對？送狗、送他的愛犬去美容，把公務車當Uber Eats，我看也不用去釐清什麼性質了，純粹就是公器私用。如果別人公器私用都沒事，我覺得那是一回事，但是很抱歉，我剛剛唸那麼多還沒唸完，在那麼多的案例裡面，我就要問，到底李俊俋這個案子是怎麼樣？他是把自己家裡的愛犬也當成監察委員了嗎？也當成去經辦業務嗎？因此在這邊我們要看看，到底我們今天……我們的檢方現在已經告發了，廉政署也接到告發了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，就是民代直接到北檢告發。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，所以大家就等著看，如果我剛剛唸的這些都有事情的話，我真的就要等著看李俊俋到底有沒有事情，不是辭官就了事，沒錯吧？請問部長，這種法律的刑事問題，不是辭官就結束的嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是由檢察官了解、調查。"],["羅委員智強：我想問署長，如果犯了所謂的不廉潔、貪污，或者是背信一些刑事上公務員瀆職的問題，辭職責任就結束了嗎？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，他的案件調查其實要看構成要件，之前有很多案子其實是有移送然後判刑，也有一些沒有移送，他的標準就在於……"],["羅委員智強：你完全講到重點了，署長。"],["馮署長成：標準就是說他有一個點……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你完全講到重點了，那個標準真的是浮動。"],["馮署長成：不是，跟委員講，就是其中有一個點……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，剛剛有一個我沒有問的，2018年時任移民署長，即中央級官員，他帶著妻子搭乘公務車旅遊，你知道他的結果是什麼？就辭職而已，對不對？所以我就要講，同樣的情形，在地方的時候他就被判刑，在中央就奇怪了，好像就沒事了。"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，在車輛使用上有首長用車的部分，還有一般派遣的部分，派遣的部分會有派車單跟油料的問題，所以在這個部分比較有牽涉到相關我們剛剛談到的那個部分，當然首長的部分也必須要去觀察，是不是有公務或違法……"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道，我就說過，如果有些態樣就像我剛剛講的餐敘、壽宴、婚宴，這中間到底它跟你的業務關聯度如何？那是個案要去釐清，這一點我也認同，可是就像剛剛前面兩位講的，我們在質詢的過程當中，不用再為李俊俋去找任何緩頰的空間了，這兩件事情就是赤裸裸的公器私用，已經踩到底了。我跟你講，我還是那句話，我剛剛唸那麼多的案例，沒有比他更離譜的啦！有嗎？有哪個比送狗去美容離譜的？哪一個有比送狗去美容離譜的？有比把公務車當Uber 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現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開 但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們會再研議再研議啦 如果說你們公開上面有"},{"start":416.784,"end":437.875,"text":"有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個這個"},{"start":439.736,"end":463.857,"text":"法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年"},{"start":465.762,"end":490.896,"text":"你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在...138件,214件...對對對,我就是指這個啦你們這個統計的結果,你們就是說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多啦這是第一點,地方行政機關居多第二點是,職等是建任、委任、約聘僱居多"},{"start":493.218,"end":515.809,"text":"這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪汙風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作齁這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員齁還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在"},{"start":516.869,"end":541.244,"text":"目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條啦最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候"},{"start":542.665,"end":559.531,"text":"他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計"},{"start":567.654,"end":592.128,"text":"他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督"},{"start":594.284,"end":611.93,"text":"所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠"},{"start":614.201,"end":631.413,"text":"主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好"},{"start":631.913,"end":658.511,"text":"那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊這個部分太這樣子太主觀你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題"},{"start":664.015,"end":679.707,"text":"這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關"},{"start":682.414,"end":688.421,"text":"有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現像花蓮文化局局長這個社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆"},{"start":699.164,"end":714.356,"text":"像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有"},{"start":714.636,"end":732.604,"text":"去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案"},{"start":742.208,"end":760.31,"text":"那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報跟委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中"},{"start":761.651,"end":777.617,"text":"這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為涉及不實核銷特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個"},{"start":780.54,"end":807.56,"text":"2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們這個現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車"},{"start":809.605,"end":815.895,"text":"那這個但是這個他濫用公務車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁"},{"start":817.028,"end":842.61,"text":"就是盧秀燕,盧秀燕表示說這個我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年這個是不是能夠去了解處長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案有沒有調查其他我看其他台南市"},{"start":843.646,"end":856.944,"text":"台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還有被判刑的那這個台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係"},{"start":858.683,"end":881.164,"text":"跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政我們一向的態度就是說他如果"},{"start":881.764,"end":902.705,"text":"我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展,事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經剩餘完備了但是我們在執行面上面,包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些廉政單位它的雙軌制,它必須同時接受地方首長"},{"start":903.717,"end":919.612,"text":"的指揮監督跟接受上級正宗單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位能夠進行檢討我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作的手冊然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時15分）主席，我看今天安排這個主題是「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之樣態與防制」，安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急……"],["主席：不是、不是，我剛才有說明……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道你剛剛有說明了，我現在就要講，你剛才的說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水，原本你要安排的是有關地方政府的一般補助……"],["主席：對。"],["沈委員發惠：而且你還說因為你們開會，我不曉得召委排案是要開什麼會？應該是你們國民黨……"],["主席：不是、不是，我們國民黨有國民黨的做法，我們是對抑留剋扣，這是刑法瀆職罪章。"],["沈委員發惠：對，你本來要安排這個，而且我看你的質詢裡面，你花了超時一倍的時間在講地方政府，你反而沒有講今天的主題「如何落實清廉政府」，這個部分講得比較少，雖然你前面有講。所以這個題目，在我認知，應該就是你臨時改的，可能是你們國民黨看到相關的新聞……"],["主席：我跟你講，我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣，我這個人說話就是這樣……"],["沈委員發惠：你們見獵欣喜，然後想要在這邊私設刑堂，把人找來這裡，本來可能由政風單位進行事實的調查，但是你們就一定要在事實調查出來之前，把當事人找來這裡私設刑堂，羞辱一番。當然他自己犯錯要付出代價，這個是一件事，但是我剛才聽起來就是這樣，你本來要排一般性補助款，結果後來你也沒有說明理由。為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員瀆職態樣之防制？這個我就不是很清楚。"],["主席：我剛才有講，是你聽不懂，我說抑留剋扣是刑法瀆職罪章，我剛剛問的內容也跟636億有關。好，沒關係，我尊重你的想法。"],["沈委員發惠：我也尊重主席的排案權。"],["主席：OK，謝謝沈委員。"],["沈委員發惠：我只是認為這種案件一發生，都還在調查程序中就要把當事人調來這裡，然後設一個刑堂在這裡拷問他，我個人不太苟同這樣，把我們寶貴的委員會的時間拿來做這種政治利益的計算，我個人不太能苟同，不過這是召委的排案權，我這邊不評論。","現在我請廉政署署長。"],["主席：好，麻煩廉政署署長。"],["沈委員發惠：署長，不好意思，我這個人比較守規矩，既然召委立了這種題目，我們就就事論事。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["沈委員發惠：就這個題目討論「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」，我們就針對這個主題討論。","現在廉政署組織法裡面關於廉政署所主掌的事項，包括貪污預防事項及推動執行，這個在法務部廉政署組織法第二條裡面有規定八款，這都是你們的權責。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["沈委員發惠：廉政署成立到現在已經10年。"],["馮署長成：100年成立，所以是14年。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上我看這14年來，民間感受是另外一回事，純粹就統計數字看起來，我們廉政的國際評比狀況在這14年來是提升還是下降？針對國際的評比。"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，其實從100年開始，我們以比較大的國際清廉印象指數說明，一開始的時候，我們國家的名次大概是61分、37名；隨著時間的推移到30、31名，大概是63分、65分左右；最近我們已經到25名，然後是67分、68分。"],["沈委員發惠：整體來講，我們一直在進步？"],["馮署長成：對，在180個國家跟地區，我們目前是在86以上。"],["沈委員發惠：當然，媒體一直不斷報導，就一直不斷有貪瀆的情事與個案發生，人民就會覺得現在好像跟以前一樣。其實時間拉長來看，不管是國際評比，或過去國民黨執政時貪腐的樣子，到現在大家回頭看，事實上臺灣的廉政整體而言有大幅的進步。我們當然不能因為進步了就很自滿，縱使有進步，我們還是要看目前還有什麼地方需要加強。我特別找出國家廉政建設行動方案，這是依照聯合國反貪腐公約施行法第四條訂定的，請問署長，國家廉政建設行動方案是法規嗎？還是行政指導？其定位為何？"],["馮署長成：這是行政規則，於98年訂定，當時是把端正政風、掃除黑金等整合起來，變成國家廉政建設……"],["沈委員發惠：所以是行政規則，對不對？"],["馮署長成：對，是行政規則。"],["沈委員發惠：該行政規則第四項，有關具體作為的部分列有附表，附表中績效目標部分我幫你們框出來。你們提到，各機關每年就機關整體業務辦理廉政風險評估，並全面整體性檢視現況。請問所謂廉政風險評估有定期公開嗎？"],["馮署長成：沒有定期公開。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有定期公開？"],["馮署長成：對，目前的績效完成率大概都在93%左右。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道你們有請他們評估，但評估出來的到底是什麼，外界不得而知。再來，雖然你們有做廉政風險評估，但我們卻看不到具體的改善或強化措施。所以我希望廉政署能考慮定期公開風險評估，或者由你們就相關的風險評估統整，讓國人能夠了解。"],["馮署長成：現在是密件，但之前曾經有一段時間我們有做民意調查，這部分有公開，後來因為有一些委員有不同的看法，這部分我們會再研議。"],["沈委員發惠：如果你們認為公開有窒礙難行之處或有疑慮的話，你們也應該整理整體風險評估，並將整理後的抽象化原則公布出來，讓大家知道有這樣的……"],["馮署長成：謝謝委員提醒。"],["沈委員發惠：重點是，在今天法務部的書面報告裡，有關廉政風險及本部作為的第二點提到貪瀆態樣的趨勢，這是今天會議主題貪瀆的態樣，所以我特別去看了。你們引用113年度1月到12月偵辦的貪瀆案件統計數字，這個部分……"],["馮署長成：138件、247人次……"],["沈委員發惠：對，我指的就是這個。以你們統計的結果來看，你們說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多，這是第一點，地方行政機關居多；第二點，職等是薦任、委任、約聘僱居多，這是你們反映的貪瀆風險，以基層執行面跟地方實務面的操作風險比較高，這是你們的結論，對不對？"],["馮署長成：以現實的查緝狀況及數據統計來看是這樣子。"],["沈委員發惠：你們統計的是這樣子。所以整體涉案人員還是地方行政機關居多，但我還是從法規面來看。以目前的政風機構人員設置管理條例來說，事實上，我在上一屆曾提案修改政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條，因為在現行制度、現行法規中，政風人員在執行反貪、防貪等肅貪業務時，必須同時接受機關首長及上級政風機構的指揮監督，等於是雙軌！即政風機構必須接受雙軌的指揮監督，包括地方行政首長，包括政風一條鞭的上級政風機構。我認為這樣的設計會有雙重角色的矛盾！也就是說，地方機關……你們在評估報告中說，地方機關的貪腐狀況是最嚴重的，態樣的統計數字結果也是最多的。但地方政風單位除受上級政風單位指導監督外，還要受機關首長的指導監督，如此雙重角色其實很難……既要扮演地方首長的幕僚長，又要維持政風人員的超然獨立，其超然獨立性會受到影響。所以我們那時候就提案一元化，希望受上級政風機關的指揮監督即可，這部分不知道署長的態度為何？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，政風工作確實不好做，因為在機關裡面我們要協助機關，把機關安全跟法遵做好；但同一個時間，法遵、依法行政是不能打折扣的！依照我們給的廉政工作手冊來說，原則上如果機關首長沒有問題，我們要聽機關首長做行政上的各項配合跟調查；若覺得機關首長是有問題的，則有上級機關或廉政署……"],["沈委員發惠：這樣子太主觀了！你把判斷交給他，讓他去認為機關首長有沒有問題？我們是不是在法制上面……我覺得應該研議從法制面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾！後面有很多案子，我想了解到底……我們現在看到的這些報導，基本上都是檢調機關有進行偵查，新聞才會呈現。像花蓮文化局局長涉貪，因為鬧鬼，所以拿公款包紅包給廟婆。這個個案花蓮縣政府政風單位有事前舉報嗎？在司法機關調查之前？有沒有？就這個案子，有沒有？"],["馮署長成：報告委員，我們不太方便說哪一個政風單位移送了什麼，因為這樣接下來在機關上的作為會受到……"],["沈委員發惠：這就是我講的，雙軌制之下的困境……"],["馮署長成：但我還是要跟委員報告，其實現在非常多貪瀆案件都有一個大概的比例，尤其貪瀆案件都是政風移送過來的。"],["沈委員發惠：像花蓮前教育處長採購弊案，還有剛剛召委非常關心的宜蘭林姿妙縣長涉貪案。以林姿妙涉貪案來說，政風單位有沒有事前通報？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，其實這兩案件都是地檢署、廉政署……"],["沈委員發惠：接下來是臺中地政局長涉及不實核銷特別費，這些都是在地方政府，符合我們剛剛看到的，地方政府涉貪最多。我要特別講一下今天的時事，這是大家比較關心的。2020年，也就是五年前，臺中市建設局長陳大田被檢舉濫用公務車，這個案子有沒有立案調查？五年前的案子，他現在好像還是建設局長，現任的建設局長好像就是這一位。他在2000年、五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車！他濫用公務車被檢舉之後，當時的臺中市政府、盧秀燕表示，市政府的政務官24小時待命服勤，所以局處長對公務車的使用，都視實際需要自行決定停放地點，這是盧秀燕的臺中市政府講的。五年了，不曉得署長是不是能夠去了解一下該案當初到底有沒有立案？廉政單位有沒有立案調查？其他的如臺南市、雲林縣或民進黨執政縣市首長，如果涉及公務車濫用的好像都被起訴，甚至被判刑！至於臺中市，因為說24小時待命所以沒有關係？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，剛剛有說明，因為中央或地方，其實每個單位對公務車輛的規定還是有點不太一樣的，所以我們大部分在一般……"],["沈委員發惠：所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係，五年了，到現在還可以再繼續當局長就對了，他也是一樣公務車濫用。"],["馮署長成：我不能……應該是要依法行政，我們一向的態度就是他如果有違法……"],["沈委員發惠：好啦！我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展，事實上我們這些防貪的法規跟執行規範，基本上，我們的法規面已逐漸臻於完備了，但是我們在執行面上面，包括我剛剛所提的，現在地方的廉政單位是雙軌制，必須同時接受地方首長跟上級政風單位的指揮監督，這個部分我個人認為有檢討的必要啦……"],["馮署長成：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我希望我們廉政單位能夠自己去檢討。"],["馮署長成：我們會，謝謝委員，我們會要求他們一定、務必依照我們的廉政工作手冊，然後在法律這一件事情上若有違法，我們還是會要求他們辦理。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝沈委員。","下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9e6c89bec2252a1a8e52232a9b15fab92f821bb1a47d55f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綁標或者是其他的不實驗證你講的都是事後事前"},{"start":142.595,"end":164.441,"text":"事前的部分也是我們會針對這個部分的一些查到的資料去做一些防灘指引跟一些宣導跟一些訓練讓我們的機關的同仁知道說什麼是可以做的我舉一個例子喔是就是說你們現在假設你們發現了某一個廠商你們判斷他高風險是那這一個招標案件進行中進行中喔然後你們系統已經偵測到說這個高風險這家廠商高風險好那這個標案進行中"},{"start":172.344,"end":186.451,"text":"下一步呢跟委員講我們現在廉政署針對我們的政風就對機關採購的部分都有專業的執照所以我們在這個部分會協助機關針對於採購案的這個部分上有什麼任何的不法或疑慮的話都會提醒機關來做處理提醒"},{"start":188.306,"end":199.139,"text":"也如果有不法就會如果你們發現有高風險或者不法你們會提醒怎麼提醒他們也會列做如果真的有一些實證的話也會列入拒絕往來的廠商不是我是說這個標案進行中這個局處長"},{"start":204.168,"end":227.833,"text":"譬如說各縣市有各個局處 各局處標案正進行中有一個標案 忽然間有一個你們原來就找到他可能是高風險然後他也來投標了那你們也找到了 就是說他高風險那你們通知各縣市政風嗎那各縣市的政風處 政風室我們的政風會依照我們的廉政工作守則去強化那個監辦的作為"},{"start":229.193,"end":242.513,"text":"就是說他在這個採購上的一些作為會更加強化強化是說你怎麼樣去提醒這個首長也許這個首長不知道我舉個例子比如說各縣市的局處在做這些事情縣市長不知道"},{"start":243.342,"end":257.998,"text":"對不對 先生講不知道喔可是這明明就是已經是你們系統已經找到他高風險了喔而且他也正在進行中喔那這個時候你們會做什麼提醒這個會跟機關首長報告喔這個 像這樣的如果查覺到進行中的也會正在進行中 查覺到風險機關只要查覺到機關風險都會跟機關首長做通報"},{"start":262.623,"end":286.251,"text":"就會做通報那會不會打草精神當然我們會比較有技術性啦而且在這個機關上面來講原則上機關就是由機關首長來做一個這個算是主導嘛所以我們的相關東西都是看機關首長的一些決心跟作為所以我們原則上會協助機關首長來保護機關安全好那如果說這一個某一個單位他就"},{"start":287.031,"end":312.381,"text":"他的這個單位的採購案接二連三假設他連續有兩三個案子都有問題結果我們在各單位的這個政風人員可能在政風室的主任人員也沒發現都沒發現喔然後已經又過了一兩年喔然後這個案子都已經是最後被偵查到他是一個很嚴重的弊案喔"},{"start":313.464,"end":320.527,"text":"我們對這政風市的人員或各縣市的政風處的人員我們廉政署會做什麼事啊"},{"start":321.81,"end":346.244,"text":"基本上連政署是負責政風人士的一個這個就是這個算是調派那也會對於業務上做監督指導那如果有相關上面裡面他們的一個作為上如果後來事後認定說真的是有一些疏失的部分的話我們也會當然會在這個升遷上以及是在這個業務上面或有行政處分上面都會去做"},{"start":346.704,"end":369.992,"text":"那這一個我剛剛為什麼一直挑這個事前啊 因為你剛剛說房貪嘛 房子嘛那因為有一些是法盲嘛 他不知道這件事情他不能做啦他不知道這件事情他不能做 好 我舉一個例子啦 譬如說這個標案正在進行中那結果有廠商啊 就找了這個局處長啊 就會吃飯"},{"start":372.727,"end":389.438,"text":"那這首長也不知道這傢伙要來投這個單位的案子喔他就去吃飯啦那吃飯之後啊 我們的政風能源也知道然後我們最後有接獲人家的這個不管是什麼舉報或什麼諸如此類的反正我們政風能源就知道了結果那一個廠商也真的來投標了也真的得標了 廉政署"},{"start":398.598,"end":422.837,"text":"遇到這種狀況 你覺得你要提醒你們的政風人員或者你們要提醒這些首長啊就是說我剛剛講這個首長 上面的那個首長你們會做什麼事情啊跟委員報告 其實廉政署執掌的這個法規裡面有利益衝突迴避法然後我們也有這個廉政的這個倫理的一個這個守則所以針對一些相關的部分 該去怎麼做 然後該怎麼樣登錄"},{"start":423.778,"end":451.494,"text":"我們都會去詳細的告訴機關包括首長他們都會知道該怎麼樣的一個分級那如果他真的有這樣的一個作為的話我們如果提醒不行的話那如果接下來就會有一些委員剛剛講的已經去標了甚至產生一些弊端他就會違反到立衝的一個規定我們現在立衝也會針對關係人事先去做一些就是說揭露就如果他還是比方說是這個有這樣的一個關係人的一個利益交易上面的話"},{"start":451.954,"end":476.551,"text":"那這個部分上有可能就會違反立衝法那就是法律的問題了好我再給你一個建議你們現在在處理這個系統啊這個政府的電子採購網啊你們裡頭一直強調的叫做廠商是人頭公司我再給你一個建議多連結一件事情就是這個得標廠商的地址跟電話是也會"},{"start":478.922,"end":505.542,"text":"地址跟電話因為他可能設了不同的名字或者是這一家公司已經被拒絕往來但是他同一個地址同一個聯絡的電話他還是那家廠商所以這個圈子都知道就是那一家只是他換了一個名字這一個連結可能建議你們要來注意第二個你們這一個報告是公開資訊嗎我們這個立法院的部分公開資訊"},{"start":509.329,"end":531.958,"text":"公開啊公開資訊 因為你們進行中啦 還沒有結論成果的部分當然我們現在收集到的這些標案大概會請他們再去做集合大概預計在10月或者是年底的部分會出來成果的一個評估啦那我們都看得到 國人都看得到成果的部分是不會公開啦"},{"start":532.571,"end":549.89,"text":"但是這個目前的這個宣導的這個部分跟教導政風的這個部分會好那你們該公開就公開也不要把你們的所有的手法都跟所有的廠商講這也是很奇怪的事情那這個尊重你們好接下來我們請審計部的副審計長謝謝"},{"start":556.625,"end":574.18,"text":"副審計長好這個審計單位每年都會針對這個前一年的這些狀況去做相關的審計那我請問一下各個不管是中央地方都有這些所謂的配車或者是公務車那如果一個直轄市的首長假日平日"},{"start":583.877,"end":592.524,"text":"坐著他的公務車跑去找廠商處理相關的這個容積率可能會圖利假日平日喔 坐著他的公務車審計單位如果發現你會怎麼處理"},{"start":608.732,"end":634.974,"text":"跟委員報告就是一般如果個案在處理的時候我們都是以派車單的登載內容來看但是委員剛剛特別提醒的就是那些太陽其實那些太陽的資訊我們沒辦法掌握啦就是他個人實際的行程我懂我懂我的意思是說你們剛剛有提到說你們沒辦法去處理一個通案就是說通案"},{"start":635.41,"end":643.595,"text":"因為各個單位的規定都不太一樣有些單位是這個車配給你的連你要開回家都可以"},{"start":644.471,"end":658.577,"text":"那假日呢 你的首長 你不怕司機 你自己開這台公務車回家有些單位是可以這樣 對不對那有些單位呢 接送首長完了之後再怎麼演 這台公務車還是要開回那一個單位那這一個對審計單位來說啊你們就很簡單 他們怎麼規定那你們到時候做相關審計的時候你們就去看他那一個規定嘛 對不對"},{"start":670.262,"end":697.545,"text":"好 那如果說這個單位規定說這台車 啊好你就好你啊啦反正呢 他就跟你講說你就是公務使用嘛齁那公務的這個範圍啊 見仁見智是見仁見智嘛對對那公務的範圍見仁見智 那過去也有發生一些案例啊 譬如說有一些人啊 就是說他也是這一個假日啊 他自己開車 開這台公務車啊 去找他伯娘"},{"start":698.427,"end":720.497,"text":"他說我有付郵費啊我高速公路的ETC的錢我也有繳啊後來就不知道怎麼樣的後來這個新聞就沒再報導了站在審計單位的立場這一種已經配給那個首長的這台車啊這個首長假日自己開還是晚上出去下班啊自己開 開出去然後去做"},{"start":726.236,"end":754.756,"text":"外界認為是私人可是他可能認為這是公務然後最後他就自己付了油費付了高速公路的通行費站在審計單位的立場你這個答案很重要因為現在很多人在看因為現在有被配車的單位的人很多你要一次講清楚就是說到底這些事情可不可以做假日首長自己開著配車"},{"start":756.323,"end":768.9,"text":"跑去做他認為是公務外界認為是私人行程的這個然後他繳了油費繳了這高速公路的通行費那請問在審計單位立場會怎麼處理"},{"start":771.564,"end":795.779,"text":"跟委員報告現在目前為止我們最上位的是公務車的管理手冊的規定針對首長是首長專用車到底專用到什麼程度沒有統一的規定這個也就是會變成個案會審酌不是啦你沒有統一規定怎麼個案啊這個規定跟委員報告這個規定是這個首長我告訴你這個首長他認為我這是公務啊"},{"start":800.353,"end":816.16,"text":"我這是公務啊,外界認為說這哪有公務,這是私人行程,這哪有公務啊到現在回來回去的時候,你省區單位可能說我也沒什麼意見,沒什麼規定來來來,那我問廉政署好不好,廉政署,來來來這個怎麼辦,有人檢舉啦,我舉例說有人檢舉,然後呢"},{"start":823.317,"end":848.92,"text":"這個首長可能就被你們請來了所以你幾月幾號 你就自己開這台公務車走去 假設好 你是一個台北市的官員你開車開去台中那你說我去台中市政考察我去看台中做得怎麼樣啊 我不行他認為這是公務然後這個首長認為 外界會認為這是私人廉政署下一步會是什麼"},{"start":850.098,"end":864.313,"text":"委員報告 其實目前因為這幾個案件現在是在北檢的一個偵查中那個案的部分我們就不太去說那在於監察院內部監察委員的部分他是自律的"},{"start":865.434,"end":879.699,"text":"如果說是一般的公務的部分我們的行政院是有車輛使用的一個規定那其他的院都有自己一個相關的規定所以很簡單就是你們按照每一個機關每一個單位他們的規定去辦"},{"start":880.305,"end":904.17,"text":"就是他們會有一個使用車輛的一個部分 我們會針對那個部分去看對 因為也許每一個縣市也都長不一樣那有些縣市他有些人 有些機關的處長 局長他是專遷專遷這個車子就變成你可以用嘛 對不對 審計單位就是各單位他們有他們自己的規定那對廉政署來說 到所有人檢舉了"},{"start":905.31,"end":934.722,"text":"你們就是看這個規定嘛 對不對看這個規定 這個單位說可以就是可以這個單位說不可以就可能會有貪賭的問題嘛目前上面在法律的適用上面通盤上比較多的是背信跟詐欺跟侵佔然後加134條的一個部分比較多的以往的一個判決的一個結果是這樣子所以說圖利罪的話會不會成立這個得比較看個人要見"},{"start":935.236,"end":946.068,"text":"那署長你覺不覺得我剛剛問的這一些不管是公務車 配車 專屬的什麼車好 要不要全國訂一台 全季的啦"},{"start":947.386,"end":956.129,"text":"你不能說受困 大家都自己頂自己的 自己頂自己的 到時候他可能換單位他不能在這個縣市 奇怪我在這個縣市當首長 當局處長我們那個縣市就可以 奇怪我換這個縣市 我用我以前的經驗來到這裡即使這一個政風單位在我上任的時候也告訴我說 我們的規定是這樣 一分給你嘛"},{"start":970.962,"end":977.105,"text":"可是我印象中可以啊 結果我去幹了這個事情後來才發現說 原來這個管制不可以啦這個事情 最後啦 我建議這個連政署或者是部長也在嘛或者是這個審計單位 大家參詳一下看專攻齁 要整頓好不然大家都要花 都要花這麼大錢其實是很麻煩的啦"},{"start":996.954,"end":1011.478,"text":"好不好 這個你們研究一下 你也不用打呼我 好不好這個就是讓全國的公務員有一個依循的依據因為有時候公務員派公務車出去我請問一下 他如果在外面飛行到自己的店舖"},{"start":1014.212,"end":1016.014,"text":"整群公務車去吃中午茶,吃到兩點半、三點,回到辦公室,叫他去用汽車說這公務人員,12點半、1點、2點,還在餐廳吃飯,整群公務車在衝什麼"},{"start":1034.557,"end":1038.6,"text":"我們廢棄到12點半,我們吃飯吃到2點這到時候,這社會觀感是這樣,新聞一出來,相片一出來後面調查之後說沒問題因為全部都照規矩來,沒問題這些公務員"},{"start":1050.447,"end":1068.315,"text":"他的臉、他的名字都已經在媒體上,無處聲援的啦,那都可能一、兩個月後才發現,其實他沒有怎麼樣啦這個我建議,就是主任委員委員最後報告,就是說有不法的部分,都會依法去交給地檢署,或有貪瀆會交給廉政署"},{"start":1068.735,"end":1092.443,"text":"那至於說我們會針對這一個公務車的這一個部分公車使用我們會編那個防灘指引再一次的去提醒各機關就是針對於這個公車使用的部分的一個界限跟分際OK 最好給大家一個指引啦啊不然各單位自己打招呼不過我跟你講有些公務員第一可能是罰忙第二他搞不清楚第三各單位規定因為也不一樣"},{"start":1093.323,"end":1107.675,"text":"所以我們譬如說像我們最近這些案子我們就要去查那個單位的公務車使用規定因為每一個一定都不一樣啦你別說五院長不一樣啦各部位可能也都長不一樣啦這個規定都不同 好不好好 大家一起加油 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":524,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時57分）謝謝主席，先請廉政署署長。"],["主席：麻煩署長。"],["馮署長成：委員好。"],["王委員義川：署長好。署長，在你們的報告裡頭，你們目前正在進行一個叫做高風險政府採購案件全國性專案稽核計畫，嘗試透過人工智慧，找出比較高風險的政府採購弊案嘛！有可能是這樣。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["王委員義川：你們結合了公司登記，叫做商工行政資料開放平臺，也結合了政府採購網，對不對？然後也結合了司法院裁判書系統嘛！目前進行的狀況怎麼樣？"],["馮署長成：和委員報告，廉政署的工作因為剛好委員今天問，我們要說的是，我們的工作其實是防貪、肅貪、再防貪。"],["王委員義川：防貪……"],["馮署長成：防貪是我們最優先的工作。"],["王委員義川：「防」喔！"],["馮署長成：防止的「防」，所以在防貪的工作上，我們一直希望能夠再把觸角再往前延伸，及早察覺到風險的問題，所以我們在今年度有透過AI新的技術，就是嘗試透過各個不同的跨領域資料庫，委員。剛剛提的三個都是我們的一些資料庫，還有其他的，我們針對一些已經出現的高風險廠商去做相關的蒐集，希望能夠針對比方委員剛剛講的幾個部分，就可以找到類似像虛設行號的人頭公司，還有一些已經是拒絕往來的廠商。"],["王委員義川：這是你們去找到這一些廠商，下一步呢？"],["馮署長成：跟委員講，現在我們廉政署的政風針對機關採購的部分都有專業執照，所以我們在這個部分會協助機關，針對採購案有任何不法或疑慮的話，都會提醒機關處理。"],["王委員義川：提醒？"],["馮署長成：如果有不法就會……"],["王委員義川：如果你們發現有高風險或者不法會提醒，怎麼提醒？"],["馮署長成：如果真的有一些實證的話也會列入拒絕往來的廠商。"],["王委員義川：不是，我是說這個標案進行中，比如說各縣市有各個局處，而各局處的標案正在進行中，其中有一個標案，忽然間有一個原來就可能是高風險的也來投標了，你們也找到他是高風險，你們會通知各縣市政風嗎？那各縣市的政風處、政風室……"],["馮署長成：我們的政風會依照我們的廉政工作守則強化監辦的作為，他在這個採購上的一些作為會更加強化……"],["王委員義川：強化？你怎麼樣提醒這個首長？也許這個首長不知道。我舉個例子，譬如各縣市的局處在做這件事情，縣市長不知道，可是明明你們的系統已經找到他是高風險，而且他也正在進行中，這個時候你們會做什麼提醒？"],["馮署長成：這個會跟機關首長報告，像這樣的如果察覺到風險……"],["王委員義川：正在進行中的也會？"],["馮署長成：只要察覺到機關風險，都會跟機關首長通報。"],["王委員義川：就會通報？"],["馮署長成：對。"],["王委員義川：那會不會打草驚蛇？"],["馮署長成：當然我們會比較有技術性，而且在機關方面來講，原則上機關就是由機關首長主導，所以我們的相關東西都是看機關首長的一些決心跟作為，我們原則上會協助機關首長保護機關安全。"],["王委員義川：如果某一個單位的採購案接二連三，假設他連續兩、三個案子都有問題，結果在各單位的政風人員或政風室的主任、人員也沒發現，都沒發現喔！然後已經又過了一、兩年，這個案子最後被偵查到是一個很嚴重的弊案，廉政署對政風室人員或各縣市政風處人員會做什麼事？"],["馮署長成：基本上廉政署是負責政風的人事調派，也會對於業務上做監督指導，如果他們的相關作為事後認定真的有一些疏失的話，我們當然都會在升遷上、業務上或行政處分上處理。"],["王委員義川：我剛剛為什麼一直提到事前？因為你剛剛說防貪、防止，但有一些是法盲，他不知道這件事情不能做。我舉一個例子，譬如說這個標案正在進行中，結果有廠商就邀請這個局處長吃飯，這個首長也不知道這傢伙要來投這個單位的案子，他就去吃飯了，吃飯之後我們的政風人員也知道，假如政風人員有接獲人家舉報等等諸如此類的，反正我們政風人員就知道了，結果那一個廠商也真的來投標了、也真的得標了。當廉政署遇到這種狀況，你要提醒你們的政風人員，或者你們要提醒這些首長──就是我剛剛講的這個首長上面的那個首長？你們會做什麼事情？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，其實廉政署執掌的法規裡面有利益衝突迴避法，我們也有廉政倫理守則，所以針對相關的部分該怎麼做、該怎麼樣登錄，我們都會詳細的告訴機關，包括首長都會知道該有怎麼樣的分際。假設他真的有這樣一個作為，我們如果提醒不行，接下來就如同委員剛剛講的已經去標了，甚至產生一些弊端，他就會違反利衝的規定。我們現在的利衝也會針對關係人士先去做一些揭露，比方說有這樣的關係人利益交易的話，這個部分可能就會違反利衝法，那就是法律的問題了。"],["王委員義川：我再給你一個建議，你們現在在處理這個系統、政府電子採購網，你們裡頭一直強調的叫做廠商、人頭公司！"],["馮署長成：是。"],["王委員義川：我再給你一個建議，多連結一件事情，就是這個得標廠商的地址跟電話。"],["馮署長成：是，也會。"],["王委員義川：因為他可能設了不同的名字，或者是這一家公司已經被拒絕往來，但是他同一個地址、同一個聯絡電話，他還是那家廠商，所以這個圈子都知道就是那一家，只是他換了一個名字，這一個連結建議你們要注意。第二個，你們這個報告是公開資訊嘛？"],["馮署長成：對，公開資訊。"],["王委員義川：因為你們進行中，還沒有……"],["馮署長成：關於成果的部分，我們現在蒐集到的這些標案會請他們再去稽核，大概預計在10月或者是年底的時候會出來一個成果評估。"],["王委員義川：我們都看得到、國人都看得到？"],["馮署長成：應該是可以。"],["王委員義川：你要確定。"],["馮署長成：成果的部分不會公開，但是目前的宣導跟教導政風的部分會做。"],["王委員義川：你們該公開就公開，也不要把你們所有的手法都跟所有的廠商講，這也是很奇怪的事情，這個尊重你們。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["王委員義川：接下來請審計部的副審計長，謝謝。"],["李副審計長順保：委員好。"],["王委員義川：副審計長好。審計單位每年都會針對前一年的狀況做相關的審計，我請問一下，不管是中央、地方都有所謂的配車或者是公務車，如果一個直轄市的首長假日、平日坐著他的公務車，跑去找廠商處理相關的容積率，這可能會有圖利。假日、平日坐著他的公務車，審計單位如果發現了，你會怎麼處理？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，一般個案在處理的時候，我們都是以派車單的登載內容來看，但是委員剛剛特別提醒的那些態樣，其實那些態樣的資訊我們沒辦法掌握，就是他個人實際的行程到底見了誰，我們不知道。"],["王委員義川：我懂，我的意思是說，你們剛剛有提到你們沒辦法去處理通案，因為各個單位的規定都不太一樣，有些單位是這個車配給你了，連你要開回家都可以，且假日首長沒有司機，他自己也可以開這臺公務車回家，有些單位是可以這樣，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員義川：有些單位接送首長完了之後，無論再怎麼遠，這臺公務車還是要開回那一個單位，這個對審計單位來說就很簡單，就是依照他們的規定，你們到時候做相關審計的時候就去看他那一個規定，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員義川：如果這個單位規定這臺車就給你了，反正就規定公務使用，那公務的範圍見仁見智。"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["王委員義川：見仁見智嘛？"],["李副審計長順保：對。"],["王委員義川：既然公務的範圍見仁見智，過去也有發生一些案例，比如有一些人也是假日自己開這臺公務車跑去別的地方，他說：我有付油費、高速公路ETC的錢我也有繳。後來就不知道怎麼樣了，後來這個新聞就沒再報導了。站在審計單位的立場，這一種已經配給那一個首長的車，這個首長假日自己開車，或是晚上司機下班後自己開出去，然後去做外界認為是私人的事務，可是他可能認為這是公務，最後他就自己付了油費、付了高速公路的通行費。站在審計單位的立場，你的答案很重要，因為現在很多人在看，因為現在有被配車的單位的人很多，你要一次講清楚，到底這些事情可不可以做？假日首長自己開著配車跑去做他認為是公務，外界認為是私人行程，然後他繳了油費、繳了高速公路的通行費，請問審計單位的立場會怎麼處理？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，目前為止，我們最上位的是公務車管理手冊的規定，針對首長、副首長專用車到底專用到什麼程度沒有統一規定，這就會變成是以個案審酌。"],["王委員義川：不是啦，你沒有統一規定要怎麼個案審酌？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，這個規定是……"],["王委員義川：首長認為是公務，但外界認為這怎麼是公務，這是你的私人行程，怎麼會是公務？到時候如果解釋不清楚，審計單位可能說自己沒什麼意見、沒什麼規定。我來問問廉政署，廉政署，來！這個怎麼辦？舉例來說，有人檢舉，那個首長可能就被你們請來了，問他幾月幾號自己開這臺公務車跑去……假設他是一個臺北市的官員，開車去臺中，他說他去臺中市政考察，去看臺中做得怎麼樣，不行嗎？他認為這是公務，然後外界就認為這是私人行程，那廉政署下一步會是什麼？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，因為現在這幾個案件在北檢偵查中，針對個案的部分，我們就不太去說。"],["王委員義川：對。"],["馮署長成：監察院內部的監察委員是自律的……"],["王委員義川：沒有啦，我沒有講監察委員。"],["馮署長成：對，如果是一般的公務，我們行政院有車輛使用的規定，其他院都有自己相關的……"],["王委員義川：好，所以很簡單，你們按照每一個機關、每一個單位的規定去辦？"],["馮署長成：他們會有使用車輛的部分，我們會針對那個部分去看。"],["王委員義川：對，因為也許每一個縣市也都不一樣，有些縣市、有些機關的處長、局長是專簽，專簽就變成可以用這個車子，對不對？各單位有他們自己的規定，對廉政署來說，到時候有人檢舉了，你們就是看這個規定，對不對？這個單位說可以就是可以，這個單位說不可以，那就可能會有貪瀆的問題。"],["馮署長成：目前在法律適用上，通盤上看來，比較多的是背信、詐欺跟侵占，然後加上第一百三十四條，以往比較多的判決結果是這樣子，所以圖利罪會不會成立這個得看構成要件。"],["王委員義川：署長，你覺不覺得我剛剛問的這一些，不管是公務車、配車，專屬的車都好，要不要全國訂一下規矩？不能都授權讓大家自己訂自己的，到時候他可能換單位，他本來在這個縣市當首長、當局處長，原本那個縣市就可以，奇怪！換到這個縣市，來到這裡沿用以前的經驗，政風單位在他上任時也告訴他相關的規定是這樣，拿一本相關規定給他，他的印象中是可以啊，結果幹了這個事情之後才發現，原來這個縣市不行。關於這個事情，我建議廉政署或者是部長和審計單位一起商量看看，把全國的規定做好，不然到時候大家搞不清楚這些事情，這其實是很麻煩的，好不好？"],["馮署長成：是。"],["王委員義川：你們研究一下，你們也不用答復我，這就是讓全國公務員有一個依循的依據，因為有時候公務人員派公務車出去……我請問一下，如果他去外面會勘到12點半，整群人坐公務車去吃午餐，吃到兩點半、三點才回辦公室，結果被人家拍到，說公務人員12點、1點、2點還在餐廳吃飯，還整群人坐公務車，這是在做什麼？可是他們是會勘到12點半，吃飯吃到2點……我跟你說，社會觀感是這樣，新聞一出來、照片一出來之後，之後調查都說沒事，因為全部都是照規矩來，沒什麼事，可是這些公務員的臉、名字都已經在媒體上，無處伸冤了，那可能一、兩個月之後才發現他們其實也沒有怎樣。我建議署長……"],["馮署長成：委員，我最後報告，針對不法的部分，我們都會依法交給地檢署，或有貪瀆則會交給廉政署，我們會針對公務車的使用編防貪指引，再一次提醒各機關公務車使用的界限跟分際。"],["王委員義川：OK，最好給大家一個指引，不然各單位自己在那邊搞。我跟你講，第一點，有些公務員可能是法盲；第二點，他搞不清楚；第三點，各單位規定也不一樣，所以像最近這些案子就要去查那個單位的公務車使用規定，因為每一個一定都不一樣，你不要說五院的規定不一樣，各部會可能也都不一樣，規定都不同。大家一起加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9e2c051b978394ec0c52232a9b15fab92fc39fd917a7df395eb0f7f8ee9a7a6aef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:32:29 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這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這段時間呢 世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來"},{"start":82.384,"end":95.436,"text":"好 OK 那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來"},{"start":97.079,"end":114.78,"text":"那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金人民的納稅錢甚至"},{"start":116.889,"end":144.92,"text":"國安會組織條例第八條他就明確地寫明了載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱"},{"start":146.78,"end":163.385,"text":"去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些"},{"start":164.245,"end":187.795,"text":"這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了就今年連預算都不可以管了"},{"start":189.059,"end":213.957,"text":"就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長"},{"start":215.254,"end":227.203,"text":"難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想 假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我"},{"start":230.345,"end":258.894,"text":"那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的"},{"start":260.054,"end":283.94,"text":"準價我想說這是整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這個部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長 法務部長副審計長 廉政署署長還有調查局局長"},{"start":300.475,"end":326.633,"text":"好 最後我再補充一下就是那個因為江南院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充有請部長四位早安 四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長"},{"start":330.666,"end":351.478,"text":"署長我請問一下 因為這一次事情越鬧越大 包括秘書長都已經請辭了監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分 政鋒他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道"},{"start":352.395,"end":373.813,"text":"我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對 上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好 那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一些比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往喔其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用"},{"start":374.393,"end":388.94,"text":"公務車 其實後來都有判刑的紀錄啦那我想齁 這一次 雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來 他是說因為這是涉及失誤 所以 這個他們沒有調查但是齁 我還是請"},{"start":390.78,"end":418.276,"text":"這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情"},{"start":419.276,"end":445.489,"text":"這個行為有可能違法因為剛剛黃委員在問部長說部長並沒有一個明確的說明而且部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪個條那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人 潛見 覺得這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔可能這幾條的犯刑那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面"},{"start":447.27,"end":467.019,"text":"夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦素攤那我這11年辦素攤的經驗這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧"},{"start":474.682,"end":490.443,"text":"我想說那個費信詐欺這個追尾權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個DLH局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法"},{"start":491.324,"end":518.094,"text":"管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過"},{"start":519.608,"end":531.774,"text":"作弊不辦嘛 我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪 所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條 既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題"},{"start":536.398,"end":549.853,"text":"這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載"},{"start":551.534,"end":574.157,"text":"譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容 這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下 讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況 好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院"},{"start":574.738,"end":587.187,"text":"他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員"},{"start":588.365,"end":613.662,"text":"是 跟委員報告一下 就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分 就是偵查的部分 我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了 所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中 如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話 我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分 就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會 它是偵查委員 監察委員的部分"},{"start":614.062,"end":635.775,"text":"那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會遇到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了"},{"start":636.095,"end":665.855,"text":"那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情但是我一直主張的是"},{"start":667.135,"end":681.402,"text":"請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為委託文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候"},{"start":682.318,"end":711.187,"text":"犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎"},{"start":711.727,"end":731.684,"text":"好 謝謝委員提醒 我們會注意證據明確 程序嚴謹跟保障人權是 這部分再麻煩 也不可以說違法詢問 或者是中斷錄音 或者是說去醫院視察 結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以 這在程序上面都違法的好 那我再請教一下那個副審計長"},{"start":735.538,"end":753.331,"text":"副委員好副委員長我想請問一下我先簡單的說明一下一個問題就是這個公務車預算的執行這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎"},{"start":754.592,"end":781.591,"text":"個別公務員報告 個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法 這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理"},{"start":781.971,"end":804.517,"text":"好 謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查 該查辦就查辦 好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好 我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰 也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好 好不好那我在那個 請教副城議長"},{"start":806.958,"end":827.304,"text":"我想今年立法院有統刪11個項目就是對於中央政府的統刪我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除"},{"start":830.166,"end":841.081,"text":"刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是 沈議長一定很清楚這個點啦"},{"start":844.036,"end":865.654,"text":"這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複 它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律 我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那 對啊 在這段時間呢 被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師 或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律 他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼 這個什麼"},{"start":867.916,"end":888.014,"text":"溯及既往違反信賴保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及既往這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來喔"},{"start":889.133,"end":908.19,"text":"又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表"},{"start":909.752,"end":937.87,"text":"2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面名器也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也"},{"start":939.251,"end":960.729,"text":"通過了這個預算的項目然後啟動2025年的啟動經費這個也都時序是這樣好那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢這個地方一般性補助款他的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效"},{"start":964.938,"end":975.73,"text":"當天也公佈了才化法 而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前 我先講在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸籍季王這種沒水準的話出來那再來"},{"start":978.431,"end":994.509,"text":"2025年4月23號莫名其妙 主計總署就告訴行政院 給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢 本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候"},{"start":995.61,"end":1023.562,"text":"問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出 業務費用 電費"},{"start":1025.903,"end":1054.249,"text":"那個國外旅費我們希望他尊潔的一些費用不希望他扶鞭結果他被砍了以後他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢那副縣長你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億你知道嗎"},{"start":1055.455,"end":1075.42,"text":"你知道這件事嗎 知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫"},{"start":1077.1,"end":1097.813,"text":"讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到這個部分"},{"start":1101.451,"end":1125.971,"text":"再來我想請教副審議長統三這個制度是今年才有嗎因為現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由有一個發明了一個統三這個制度我想請教一下我自己公務員幹那麼多年了請問審議長統三是今年才有的制度嗎從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途"},{"start":1128.555,"end":1154.069,"text":"所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對這個沈先生我有沒有講錯所以今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代"},{"start":1155.37,"end":1173.455,"text":"那再來齁我剛提到的齁就我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告就跟委員有一個時序表齁"},{"start":1174.963,"end":1200.058,"text":"比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見"},{"start":1201.159,"end":1228.101,"text":"因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼"},{"start":1229.582,"end":1250.915,"text":"你們餓死算了 錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦 窮人餓死算了啦 我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣 這竟然是組紀長給的建議我就覺得 我們是民主國家欸 中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後 那你就等餓肚子"},{"start":1252.176,"end":1273.418,"text":"不合道理嘛所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文說卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊你這中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去"},{"start":1273.959,"end":1301.579,"text":"去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的卓於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給"},{"start":1302.7,"end":1329.111,"text":"也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議啦所以我在說這個補助辦法他的規定不是說不能夠調配但他的調配是依據各縣市他的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題他去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子啦所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的啦"},{"start":1332.597,"end":1361.997,"text":"更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分"},{"start":1362.777,"end":1370.31,"text":"部長 局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理 內容我不問 怎麼偵查我不問 請問有分案處理了嗎"},{"start":1372.003,"end":1393.719,"text":"這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好 謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個 因為我們人 我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就"},{"start":1394.656,"end":1410.171,"text":"我們這個不能去手伸進去但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎上次104條也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理最後我就跟你們講"},{"start":1411.502,"end":1433.312,"text":"真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說"},{"start":1434.612,"end":1451.628,"text":"隨隨便便亂用 我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航 這都不對好 謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時32分）主席，我先要做程序上的發言。我先解釋清楚，因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況，我這邊先說明一下我們今天排這個會議的原因。其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程，當時還沒發生監察院公務車使用的問題，當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億中央不發給的問題有沒有涉及抑留剋扣罪，因為抑留剋扣罪是在刑法裡面的公務員瀆職罪章，我們是希望利用今天的會議了解整個流程，所以我先說明，第一個，關於這個會議，有人說是不是在針對李俊俋秘書長？事實上不是，這個是之前就已經開會決定的。第二個，有關請假的部分，這段時間，司法及法制委員會經歷了總統府秘書長不來，國安會秘書長也不來，現在又遇到了監察院秘書長也不來……"],["王委員義川：還有立法院秘書長也不來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，立法院秘書長也沒有來，謝謝王委員的補充。我們現在遇到的狀況是，我們面對總統府以及監察院這些人都不來，這樣我們委員會存在的意義是什麼？立法院等於不受其他機關的尊重嘛！尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候，他們在執行公務的時候，他們使用的也是國家的稅金、人民的納稅錢啊！甚至國安會組織法第八條就明確載明、明文規定，他要向立法院負責，但是他說不來就不來。所以我這邊要說明一下，我們現在面對的就是，我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長，包括王義川剛剛所補充的，就都沒有人要來，我不懂在民主國家的國會，世界上有哪一個民主國家的國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼地弱？去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲，那些權力最早都是民進黨提出來的，我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史新聞上面查到，所有國會改革的那些法案，基本上最早的草案都是民進黨所提出來的，這些權力在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的，包括官員來不可以說謊；包括官員不可以任意地拒絕到立法院，結果到我們臺灣來全部變成違憲、全部變成無法監督。去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督，全部被大法官沒收了，結果今年連預算都不可以管了。立法院明明是民主國家代議士的最高民意機關，結果我們今天不止在法律上面、行政上面無法監督，現在連預算都不可以監督了，這是我們現在遇到的問題，難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來，當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的，就是本院的秘書長，難怪！什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會，這也是世界罕見的。","假單的部分，在禮拜四早上，確實秘書長有打電話給我，我當時是有跟他說，我必須要問一下其他委員，如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來，我們就不可能准假，因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益。當時確實幾位委員都表明希望秘書長要來，他們有一些問題要請教，所以我們就沒有准假，監察院的作法就是把假單直接送到立法院的總收發室，他們的作法就是這樣，也沒有得到我們這邊准假，整個過程、經過是這樣。因為這個部分大家一直有問題，從早上一直問到現在，所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明，謝謝主席。","最後我再補充一下，監察院秘書長沒有來，但是他也沒有指派人過來，也沒有提書面，這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來，至少你人不想講，書面講一下也都沒有，這邊補充。","接下來我想請法務部長、副審計長、廉政署署長以及調查局局長。"],["主席：有請部長等。"],["吳委員宗憲：四位早安，四位辛苦了！我先請教廉政署署長。署長，有關監察院使用車輛的案子，這一次事情越鬧越大，連秘書長都已經請辭了，關於這個部分，署長知不知道政風上一次專案稽核監察院內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前？"],["馮署長成：我們會定期要求我們各政風單位去做……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，上一次是什麼時候？"],["馮署長成：但上一次是什麼時候做，我不清楚他們監察院的作業時間。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，不然這個會後再麻煩你提供，因為這是比較細的東西，我想署長可能不知道。"],["馮署長成：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：再麻煩會後提供。我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車，過往在實務上面有非常多公務員濫用公務車，其實後來都有判刑的紀錄，這一次雖然有監委跳出來，我印象中是葉監委跳出來說，因為這是涉己事務，他們沒有調查。但我還是請大家回去看一下，監察委員有一個自律規範，跟我們立委一樣，依第十七條跟第十九條規定，其實監委違法的話，監察院內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的，所以不是沒有法可辦，監察院也不是化外之地。因為今天監察院都沒有派任何一個人來，所以我在這邊可能就是跟署長、部長以及調查局長報告這件事情，這個行為有可能違法。剛剛黃委員在問部長的時候，部長並沒有一個明確的說明，部長說這個是個案，所以沒有辦法說明是哪一條。我在這邊跟部長報告，就我個人的淺見，這個行為至少在刑法上面他可能有詐欺、背信或侵占這幾條的犯行，當然坊間有人說，這個還涉及貪污治罪條例。這個可能就是認事用法上檢察官自己的判斷，像我20年的檢察官生涯中有11年在辦肅貪，依我這11年辦肅貪的經驗，這個行為即便沒有構成貪污治罪條例，在刑法上可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文，這個部分我再跟部長報告有這個狀況，也跟署長報告有這個狀況。而且這些條文的追訴權時效應該是20年，沒有錯吧？背信、詐欺的追訴權時效是20年，這個是補充剛剛黃委員問部長的部分。","我再請教一下署長還有調查局局長，依據監察院公務車管理要點第八點，其實有要求這些公務車出去的時候，必須要詳細記載去了哪裡、做了什麼，我不知道這一次是不是有記載帶小狗去美容？因為這才是當時派車出去的目的，這個部分可能要稍微了解一下。最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件，調查局長也說過，作弊不辦嗎？我覺得有道理。偽造文書也是犯罪，所以調查局辦偽造文書這個部分，我們沒有意見。如果依據這個管理要點第八點既然要詳實記載，會不會有登載不實的問題？這就是一個我們要去思考的。因為今天我們又看到很多人爆料，有人接送小孩出國，還是去看牙醫等等，他們是不是如實記載？比如這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容？我不知道。既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業，是不是也可以稍微讓全民了解一下，到底發生了什麼狀況？好不好？署長跟局長，這個部分可否請兩位去了解？"],["馮署長成：是……"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我國的法制沒有不能夠調查監察院，只是搜索之前，要先通知他們、通知他的主官，這個在刑事訴訟法有規定，剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題，我想我國並沒有法制規定不可以調查監察委員。"],["馮署長成：這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向，在司法偵查的部分，我看那個都已經向北檢提告了，所以我相信北檢也會偵辦，如果他要指揮調查局或我們，我們也會去調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。如果……"],["馮署長成：另外一部分就是剛剛委員有提到的，監察院的自律有審議委員會，是針對監察委員。有關這個部分，他們會去評議，如果有不法，也會移到檢方。我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去協助。"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛提到他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題，但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分，過往實務上因為這種類型的行為而被起訴、判刑已經有非常多的例子，不能因面對不同人而有不同的面對方式，這就奇怪了！我一直講求的一個點，就是任何行為只要犯罪，大家去查辦，我不會有意見，我只要求程序上要一視同仁，所以之前國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索，從頭到尾我的邏輯非常明確，就是偽造文書、死亡連署、偽造署押去查辦是應該的，並不存在作弊不該抓這種事情。但我一直主張的是，程序上要注意，不該扣的東西不能亂扣，遵循比例原則，這些都是法律基本的概念，不存在我認為偽造文書不該抓。一樣的，面對監委，我也麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候，犯罪就該抓、該處理，但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上是否合法，絕對不能對監察委員有濫行搜索、濫行聲押、濫行扣押或者羅織入罪，這些都不可以，我們要保障國人，包括監察委員、任何一位民進黨員、國民黨員，或任何一個普通老百姓在法律上的權益，都不可以對他們有程序上的不合法，好嗎？"],["馮署長成：好，謝謝委員提醒。我們會注意證據明確、程序嚴謹跟保障人權。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分再麻煩，也不可以違法訊問或者是中斷錄音，又或者是去醫院視察，結果是去醫院訊問，這些都不可以，這些在程序上面都是違法的。我再請教一下副審計長。"],["李副審計長順保：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝副審計長。我先簡單說明一個問題，公務車預算的執行也是你們在審計的，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們有去了解一下，監察院過去對於公務車預算執行有什麼狀況嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：個別部會公務車的使用狀況在公務車的管理手冊，還有他們個別訂的相關規定，其實都有一些檢核的作法。這個是例行的，所以一般我們不會做通案性的了解，但是我們受理檢舉違反規定使用的個案，還是會針對個案去處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝副審計長。今天已經有人檢舉這幾件個案了，就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責，該查就查，該查辦就查辦，好嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：我們會去了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：依法行政就好，我們沒有別的要求，不需要特別針對誰，也不需要特別袒護誰，依法行政就好，好不好？"],["李副審計長順保：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請教副審計長，今年立法院有統刪11個項目，就是對於中央政府的統刪。這些項目非常清楚，就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費，還有媒體宣傳等等，我們認為非必要，甚至浮編消費性、浪費的支出，加以刪除。刪除的部分是6%，但整體總預算還是史上最高，甚至比蔡英文執政的時候還多了3%，我想審計長一定很清楚這點。這一次有關地方的一般性補助款，其實是「應撥付」，它是一個法律的義務支出，副審計長應該懂這個道理。但這段時間被很多人拿來亂講，甚至有很多側翼的律師或者網紅，根本搞不清楚法律就亂講一通，包括溯及既往、違反信賴保護原則，他根本忘記去看總預算跟財劃法是哪一天公布的，財劃法的公文文號是在總預算之前，連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講，說這個是溯及既往，連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚。再來有很多人在那邊扯說，這個是中央可以決定的、這個是酌予補助等等。我等一下跟副審計長請教一個問題，因為我看到的狀況是……我來把那個時序講一下好了，這次地方性補助款的時序表是2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款，而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表，它列為法律的義務支出，這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到，這叫法律的義務支出。2024年9月20號行政院函送114年總預算給立法院，包括這筆法律的義務支出都有在裡面，明細也在裡面。2024年底各縣市議會也通過了這個預算的項目，然後啟動2025年的經費，時序是這樣。","114年中央政府總預算的地方一般性補助款全額也在立法院三讀通過，朝野三黨都沒有人去刪，而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效，當天也公布了財劃法，而且財劃法的文號是在總預算之前。我先講這在總預算之前，不要再跟我扯什麼溯及既往這種沒水準的話出來。","再來，2025年4月23號主計總處莫名其妙通知行政院、給他一個建議，說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款。上一次本院牛煦庭委員問行政院秘書長，你們除了刪636億之外，有沒有第二個方案？你說要撙節，我們都予以尊重，但是除了這個方案之外，你有沒有第二種方案？有沒有討論過，從中央政府裡面的錢去撙節，而不要動不動就砍地方政府？結果秘書長答不出來，網路上、YouTube上面都看得到這一段，所以我覺得很莫名其妙，我們的政府只想了一個道理，我剛剛講的非必要性支出、媒體支出、業務費用、電費、國外旅費，這一些是我們希望他撙節的費用，不希望他浮編，結果被砍了以後，他第一個想到的就是先砍地方政府的錢。副審計長，你是來自宜蘭，對不對？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你是宜蘭人，我常聽到人家說你常都在談宜蘭，你熱愛那個地方，以身為宜蘭人為榮，我聽到你很多同事講過這些事情。那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億，7月一次要砍掉10億，你知道嗎？你知道這件事嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：知道，了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：你有沒有想過一件事情？宜蘭的人均負債是3.85萬，是全國22縣市第二高，今天主計長來跟我們講什麼？主計長說沒錢請地方政府去借。借的意思是什麼？債留宜蘭子孫。我在這邊說明，債留宜蘭子孫，讓宜蘭人去背這個債，越背越多，這樣對嗎？有一些縣市真的財務狀況很好，像屏東沒有負債，那是他們的縣長真的做得很好，但是宜蘭因為長期可能稅收等等的問題，它就是沒有錢，主計長給我們一句話「去借錢」，這個我不太能接受，因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人，我才特別提到這個部分。","再來，我想請教副審計長，統刪這個制度是今年才有嗎？現在已經被渲染成國民黨刪除都不用理由，發明了一個統刪制度，我想請教一下，我自己公務員幹那麼多年了，請問副審計長，統刪是今年才有的制度嗎？"],["李副審計長順保：從過去的紀錄，統刪通常會指定科目、用途。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以過往有統刪嘛！"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：只是它指定科目、用途，但很多時候統刪是讓被刪除機關，我們尊重它，讓它自己去調配一些費用，對不對？副審計長，這個我有沒有講錯？"],["李副審計長順保：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以今天這個錢，統刪是本來就有的，請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有。我覺得現在這個國家根本已經是一連串謊言，怎麼去教育下一代啊？","再來，我剛剛提到的，我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法的一般性補助款，這個東西以前有沒有被刪過？我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過？"],["李副審計長順保：跟委員報告，剛剛委員有一個時序表，比如說就114年度，其實在113年大概8月左右，中央就會匡列一個額度，因為……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我只是問副審計長，你只要回答我這個問題，過往基於中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法，一般性補助款有沒有被刪過？好，不然這樣，我來講好了，我查過過往沒有刪過。副審計長，你有什麼意見？"],["李副審計長順保：這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總處的權責。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我的意思是說，您一定也懂嘛！這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過，你有沒有不同意見？"],["李副審計長順保：沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西，今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款，這些錢是用在弱勢、用在小朋友、用在教育上面，結果今天我們竟然去砍這個錢，還好意思去砍這個錢，結果變成什麼？你們餓死算了，錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦！你們地方餓死算了啦！窮人餓死算了啦！我中央還是要大吃大喝，我今天看到的是這樣，這竟然是主計長給的建議。我們是民主國家，中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅，你稅繳給我之後，那你就等著餓肚子，這個不合道理嘛！所以我一直有意見。","今天又有人說財劃法是說「酌予補助」，然後還亂解釋這個條文，說酌予補助是愛給多少給多少，其實不是這樣啊！中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法裡面要去調配，你必須依據該辦法的第四條、第五條、第六條、第十二條及第十三條才有理由去做調配，而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給，只是說各縣市可以考量它的財務狀況去做一些配比上的調配。結果今天我們遇到的是政府從上到下，這些網紅、這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況，拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上用語，拿著這個根本就不對的，酌予補助不是這樣解釋的，宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員出來在那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給，也不能訴訟，因為這個有信賴保護、有溯及既往的問題，我覺得不可思議！所以我是在說這個補助辦法的規定不是說不能夠調配，但它的調配是依據各縣市的一些狀況或預算執行的問題去做一些調配，並不是統一、一律27%都不給，不是這樣子啦！中央政府請依法行政，不能帶頭違法，這個是不對的啦！更何況這些錢真的是給地方上面的弱勢團體使用。","最後我問法務部長，不好意思，因為時間到了。部長跟調查局局長，我上次已經有說了，636億這個金額實在太大，而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體，這可能會涉嫌抑留剋扣，我上次有告發，部長、局長，這部分請問一下，內容我不問，怎麼偵查我不問，請問檢察官有分案處理了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們有函請臺高檢署依法參處。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。還有我上次告發的選罷法第一百零四條第一項，我對幾個部長還有副秘書長有提告發，這部分也要麻煩了，因為我是人民嘛！人民有告發就麻煩要依法處理，好不好？偵查的內容，一樣的，我對個案就不能把手伸進去，但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了，你們有沒有分案調查，部長有嗎？上次的第一百零四條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，這個有。"],["吳委員宗憲：也有，好，這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理。我就跟你們講，真的是從中央政府公布的公報來看，並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題，因為財劃法照文號其實是在總預算之前，沒有溯及既往適用的問題。第二個，酌予補助的定義其實要參照的是中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法，不能說隨隨便便亂用。我覺得我很受不了一些網紅在那邊亂講，然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責，還配合中央在那邊胡說八道，亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方，只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航，這個都不對，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：因為王副秘另外還有要務嘛！待會王副秘會先離開。","下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}},{"id":"162112","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162112","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f1b1c5cbef0f6d9eef1c464b69b330f552232a9b15fab92fc39fd917a7df395efbc34bea683b19dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:15:40 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上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法"},{"start":118.456,"end":141.087,"text":"那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法準價所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有"},{"start":142.604,"end":160.963,"text":"他要請假,歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了"},{"start":162.119,"end":186.97,"text":"那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去含詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好謝謝喔那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署"},{"start":201.488,"end":221.293,"text":"三位長時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了"},{"start":230.296,"end":252.708,"text":"行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊 在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好 廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了 山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫"},{"start":257.563,"end":284.371,"text":"結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查"},{"start":285.526,"end":305.597,"text":"回去查了以後 蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署 政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧"},{"start":309.486,"end":338.382,"text":"這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是"},{"start":339.622,"end":368.232,"text":"推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來 請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下"},{"start":369.946,"end":393.598,"text":"推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很威脅教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密"},{"start":395.084,"end":413.575,"text":"現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情 對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的"},{"start":414.537,"end":436.272,"text":"那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以它的那個分工上它是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來 請警政署警政署報告"},{"start":440.425,"end":465.839,"text":"這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢"},{"start":467.759,"end":491.71,"text":"一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會"},{"start":494.614,"end":513.483,"text":"說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊"},{"start":515.052,"end":530.585,"text":"結果爆出來了以後 還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長結尾搭公務車去看牙醫蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個"},{"start":536.102,"end":557.541,"text":"這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長"},{"start":563.292,"end":580.261,"text":"這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛他就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的那這部分不是很清楚那這樣他不是都承認了"},{"start":581.381,"end":607.982,"text":"他承認的對啊 我的確思慮不周啊用購物車災愛犬去做寵物美容啊所以我現在就問你啊 這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪這個在偵查中的 那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講 可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見 是這樣嗎"},{"start":612.369,"end":640.149,"text":"不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢察會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾"},{"start":641.772,"end":668.591,"text":"那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好 秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚"},{"start":672.093,"end":697.797,"text":"他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷"},{"start":700.714,"end":728.649,"text":"那個我不是在 那時候你已經高升法務部了我已經離開台南地檢台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車 一樣起訴 一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣"},{"start":730.407,"end":744.338,"text":"還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙"},{"start":756.516,"end":778.006,"text":"我講的是法規上的障礙 有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所 要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院 要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那個要不要搜索 那是個案來做一個 是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊 有法規上的障礙嗎"},{"start":779.306,"end":797.482,"text":"刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單"},{"start":799.901,"end":807.622,"text":"這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會"},{"start":829.595,"end":856.738,"text":"應該會 應該會嘛有就有 沒有就沒有 怎麼你自己是法務部部長 自己都不熟因為要不要派他這書信的事情 好沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話要不要就責 來請教部長"},{"start":858.739,"end":881.909,"text":"這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的"},{"start":883.659,"end":909.211,"text":"喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去"},{"start":910.973,"end":925.844,"text":"2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題可以嗎我們來處理可以嗎可以"},{"start":926.4,"end":944.546,"text":"需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個"},{"start":945.626,"end":972.201,"text":"有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究"},{"start":973.274,"end":983.562,"text":"部長 查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊 好啊 我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時15分）謝謝主席。開始詢答之前，先請教主席，我們請監察院來，但大部分的資訊都是從媒體知道，所以現在的狀況到底怎樣？不來是不是？"],["主席：沒有來，也沒有書面，都沒有。我們在事前有通知監察院，但秘書長不來，沒有派別人過來，也沒有書面過來，這其實是有點在羞辱立法院。"],["黃委員國昌：我具體建議，請司法及法制委員會發文請監察院說明，因為昨天突然看到李俊俋辭職的消息，但他辭職歸他辭職，監察院總還有副秘書長吧？監察院半個人都不派來，是什麼意思？監察委員現在是覺得自己是太上皇機關，他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹嗎？相關的資訊、全體國人關心的事情，全部都是從報章雜誌上才能知道，這樣的事情滿離譜的，我是建議召委，看會後要不要透過這樣的方式加以處理？我知道召委也滿無奈的，上個禮拜好像李俊俋是不是又試圖要跟你請假？"],["主席：有，上個星期四早上我有接到電話，秘書長希望請假，但我在電話裡回復他表示要跟其他委員稍微詢問一下狀況，但因為其他委員表示還是希望秘書長過來，所以我跟他說沒辦法。他有請同仁拿一份請假的資料過來，但因為我們這邊沒有辦法准假，所以我們同仁沒有收，後來監察院聯絡人就把那一份資料直接送到立法院收發室，就直接送過去了。"],["黃委員國昌：但我覺得司法及法制委員會基本規矩還是要有，他要請假歸他請假，准不准是召委的權限，從召委剛剛描述的過程，顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李俊俋還沒打算請辭，他如果打算請辭的話，那時候還請什麼假，就直接告訴你說他已經辭職了，你要不要叫副秘書長來就好了！"],["主席：黃委員，因為這個部分不需要經過決議，會後我再請我們同仁函詢監察院，看監察院那邊的說法是如何。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。麻煩有請法務部部長、廉政署署長及內政部警政署。"],["主席：請部長、署長、警政署。"],["黃委員國昌：三位早，時間關係就不一一問候。我今天看到法務部跟廉政署提出來的書面報告，老實講，我不知道該怎麼形容，你們在今天的書面報告裡大剌剌的寫說你們推動揭弊者保護法，你們推動什麼揭弊者保護法？立法院都完成三讀了，行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來，你們還好意思在書面報告裡寫說你們推動揭弊者保護法，在書面報告裡寫這種東西，法務部也好，廉政署也好，寫了自己都不會臉紅喔？立法院要審法案了，三催四請，請你們提草案出來，各種理由推托，結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動揭弊者保護法，自己看了都不會臉紅？我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧！","具體問題，上一次我請教部長和廉政署，向廉政署檢舉，結果吹哨者的身分被洩漏，你們說要回去查，查了以後說廉政署沒有做錯，你們是交給警政署政風室，還是督察單位，結果這個督察單位在回函的時候，竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人，這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧？這個事實的經過，我有沒有描述錯誤？"],["馮署長成：報告委員，大致上是正確的。"],["黃委員國昌：大致上是正確的？來，廉政署署長，請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任？就代表我們整個公務機關，哪裡有保護吹哨者的意思？大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者，這個叫保護吹哨者啊？是我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是？推動了這麼多年，推動到現在，被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者，這樣處理是對的嗎？來，請署長。"],["馮署長成：跟委員說明一下，這個案件就是民眾檢舉到廉政署……"],["黃委員國昌：事實的經過我剛剛講過了啦！現在我只問結論啦！這樣處理是對的嗎？"],["馮署長成：跟委員講，這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的。我跟委員報告我們現在針對這個部分的改進作法……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，推動吹哨者保護法制，報告都很會寫，教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛！哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識？我問你一個最基本的問題，這樣處理是對的嗎？你都不敢正面回復，這樣處理是不是對的？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，沒有不敢回復，基於任何檢舉人，也不一定是揭弊者，檢舉人的身分都應該保密。"],["黃委員國昌：現實上就沒有嘛！"],["馮署長成：事實上我們對於不保密的……"],["黃委員國昌：現實上有嗎？"],["馮署長成：我們很重視這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["馮署長成：所以對於沒有保密的部分，我們一定會嚴加去檢討，然後去改進。"],["黃委員國昌：要如何檢討？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，在這個事情之後，我們有發現一個狀況，就是當時發交到政風單位，我們都是以密件處理的，到後來因為警政署的工作比較特殊，它的分工是由督察系統去查，後來的了解是，在督察系統這邊的環節有一些問題，所以他們也針對這個部分做了行政的究責，未來的話……"],["黃委員國昌：所以該負責任的是警政署是不是？"],["馮署長成：我們這邊也會檢討，跟委員報告，其實事實上我們後來……"],["黃委員國昌：來，請警政署。"],["陳副主任清華：警政署報告。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎？"],["陳副主任清華：這個部分處理上是有一些不夠周延的地方，針對這部分，除了……"],["黃委員國昌：目前追究責任的進度如何？"],["陳副主任清華：相關人員其實已經給予行政的處分。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼處分的，會後給我書面資料可以嗎？"],["陳副主任清華：是。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["陳副主任清華：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。接下來請部長，之前針對監察院的公務車，第一次當立委的時候我就強力質詢，一個監察院才多少人，正副首長專用車將近30台，當時也是立法委員的李俊俋，就嚴詞批評過監察院的公務車使用就是浪費嘛！結果沒想到李俊俋今年年初才開記者會說「柴米油鹽樣樣少，監院風骨不打折」，全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌，所謂的監院風骨不打折，是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容。結果報出來了以後，還不只這樣，還不是只有李俊俋這個秘書長，監委搭公務車去看牙醫，蘇麗瓊。來，請教一下法務部部長，這種行為構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：秘書長那部分北檢已經分案了解了，另外……"],["黃委員國昌：從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案……"],["黃委員國昌：給全國人民科普一下嘛！從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪，給全國人民科普一下嘛！來，請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案還要經過檢察官的了解、調查。"],["黃委員國昌：當然嘛！就這個行為態樣構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對這個個案的了解就是據媒體報導，就誠如委員講的，這是一個……"],["黃委員國昌：不了解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體報導的，這部分還要……"],["黃委員國昌：不是很清楚？他不是都承認了？他承認了：對啊！我的確思慮不周啊！用公務車載愛犬去做寵物美容啊！所以我現在就問你，這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在偵查中，這部分我不表示偵查中的一些……"],["黃委員國昌：我們抽象的來講，可以這樣幹嗎？可以這樣幹嗎？還是你也不方便表示意見？遇到綠色的監委就軟趴趴，你也不方便表示意見，是這樣嗎？不回答？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為是否涉及犯罪，檢察官會再了解。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！部長可能貴人多忘事啦！來，我提醒你一下，除了蘇麗瓊以外，還有林郁容，接下來還會爆出誰，我不知道啦！我看這個個案非常非常的多。我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的，前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾，現在大家就在看監察院的這些御史大夫會不會彈劾自家人，大家都在等著看嘛！是不是用同一個標準，還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員，監委也好、秘書長也好，自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹？後來這個前雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴，部長知不知道？還是這個個案你也不清楚？他有沒有被起訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我告訴你，他有被起訴，他還被判刑了，他不只有被起訴，他還被判刑了，這還不是唯一的個案。再來看，當初我們賴清德總統在當臺南市市長的時候，他用的民族事務委員會主委汪志敏，那個時候你是不是在南檢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不是在……我那時候在……"],["黃委員國昌：那個時候你已經高升法務部了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我已經離開臺南地檢。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，很好。臺南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車，一樣起訴，一樣判刑。現在全體國人都在等著看，看我們的法務部、我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣，還是看到綠色的監委，每一個都軟趴趴，不敢表示意見，連是違法的都不敢講，大家等著看要怎麼偵辦、要怎麼處理。北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙？我講的是法規上的障礙，有任何法規上的障礙嗎？如果要去搜索國防軍事處所，要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意，搜索監察院要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要不要搜索那是個案來認定。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！所以我就問你法規上的問題啊！有法規上的障礙嗎？刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎？還是不敢回答？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可不可以搜索就按照法律的規定處理。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是按照法律的規定嘛！怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答？來，我請教一下，法務部部長坐車出去要不要寫派車單？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分司機會處理。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫司機會處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：駕駛會去處理這個派車單。"],["黃委員國昌：處理說今天載法務部部長去哪裡嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個會……我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：有派車單還是沒有派車單，這是事實問題嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個派車單會去核銷油料，這部分會寫派車單。"],["黃委員國昌：所以司機會寫派車單是嗎？法務部部長的部分，會還是不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該會。"],["黃委員國昌：應該會嘛！有就有，沒有就沒有，怎麼你自己是法務部部長，自己都不熟？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為要不要派車是庶務性的事情，我不處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啊！法務部部長可以在上班時間去「喬」他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎？我之前問過你這個問題，你說絕對不會發生這樣的事，你確定嗎？你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎？如果有發生這樣的事情，要不要究責？來，請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就依法律處理。"],["黃委員國昌：依法律處理嘛！好，我希望就依法律處理，所以我今天質詢的時候公開檢舉，前法務部部長蔡清祥在2021年9月17日禮拜五上班時間，搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生「喬」私人的訴訟，法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎？你之前是跟我講：絕對不會有這樣的事。現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情，法務部要不要調查？還是他卸任了，沒有關係？要不要調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來了解。"],["黃委員國昌：再來了解？我今天公開檢舉，請法務部回去查2021年9月17日部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單，會後送司法及法制委員會，有沒有問題？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？下班以前送來可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是兩個禮拜？"],["黃委員國昌：這樣還要拖兩個禮拜，給你一個禮拜夠久了啦！我今天公開檢舉，法務部部長在這邊承諾，說要回去了解，我希望不是雷聲大雨點小。","第二個，有沒有這個事情，這是客觀存在的歷史事實，我今天公開檢舉，蔡清祥當初有沒有請假？是不是搭公務車去的？可以在上班時間去「喬」他好朋友的訴訟喔？官箴敗壞至此啊！我當初要質詢這件事情的時候，蔡清祥下臺了，下臺歸下臺，就跟李俊俋一樣，該追究的法律責任一樣要追究。部長，查前部長會不會有壓力？會不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就依法來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：就依法來處理，好！我們拭目以待，看你如何依法來處理，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。麻煩羅委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2025-06-02"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部\n廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內\n政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}