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圖全吉及李坤成所提書面質詢"},{"start":2048.215,"end":2060.061,"text":"列入記錄刊登公報決議一報告說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定三均同意動之並提報院會討論事項二審查行政院函請審議委員林月琴等16人委員何新淳等16人委員王玉敏等24人委員邱若驊等16人委員黃婕等21人委員蔡易餘等17人"},{"start":2078.01,"end":2084.192,"text":"委員李坤誠等22人委員陳培宇等19人委員郭玉琴等21人委員陳素月等16人委員鄭天才等18人委員王美惠等19人委員林淑芬等25人委員王正旭等18人委員吳佩義等18人分別擬具兒童托育服務法草案等16案兒童托育服務法草案有委員林月琴等3人提出部分條文修正動議決議行政院函請審議"},{"start":2106.159,"end":2116.523,"text":"兒童托育服務法草案等16案另則其繼續審查討論事項3繼續審查委員王玉敏等18人委員劉建國等16人委員邱志偉等19人以及審查委員李博義等16人委員羅廷偉等16人分別擬據病人自主權力法部分條文修正草案等5案病人自主權力法有委員劉建國等4人提出第5條第9條第14條條文修正動議決議"},{"start":2134.631,"end":2157.461,"text":"委員王玉敏等18人擬拒病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案等5案除第3條第5條及第15條以外其餘令則其繼續審查審查結果1第3條照委員王玉敏等18人提案及委員劉建國等16人提案通過2第5條照委員劉建國王玉敏等4人所提修正動議修正通過3第15條照委員劉建國等16人提案通過4保留條文"},{"start":2163.503,"end":2176.072,"text":"第四條 第六條 第八條 第九條 第十條 第十二條 第十四條新增第十六條之一 第十七條五保留之修正動議委員 劉建國 王玉敏等四人所提之第九條 第十四條條文修正動議宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2186.377,"end":2210.668,"text":"沒有那我們意思確定那本日會議大家都關心的我們邀請勞動部長就勞工退休金制度改革含勞保勞退執行的現況進行專案報告並備詢質詢現在介紹在場的委員跟列席官員第一位是林業勤委員"},{"start":2216.147,"end":2242.518,"text":"陳昭之委員我們在場的行政官員勞動部部長洪森漢勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉勞工保險局局長白立正勞動基金應用局局長蘇玉清"},{"start":2245.592,"end":2249.896,"text":"職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂勞動關係師師長王厚偉勞動保險師師長陳美女勞動福祉退休師師長黃維琛"},{"start":2274.979,"end":2295.056,"text":"勞動條件就業平等司司長黃琦雅今天立法院委員會只有四個在開會其他四個都去考察所以今天生理比較不好我們國防委員會還去關島考察非常的羨慕"},{"start":2304.009,"end":2317.319,"text":"請問部長哪一個國家的勞動條件比較好的我們去考察真的啊我在排啊接下來我們請勞動部部長報告"},{"start":2334.275,"end":2347.547,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天很榮幸應邀至貴委員會就勞工退休金制度改革含勞保勞退執行現況進行專題報告那請各位不吝指教"},{"start":2348.467,"end":2363.296,"text":"老公退休金制度关系广大劳工的权益不但各界关心瞩目也是重要的政策随着我国迈入高龄化及少子化社会现行的老公退休金制度要如何强化老公退休后经济生活的保障必须更"},{"start":2364.136,"end":2389.105,"text":"必須更加審慎以下就現行的勞工保險老年給付以及勞工退休金的兩大部分進行說明在勞保制度部分勞保是39年開辦至今以75年主要是為了勞工面臨生育傷病失能老年及死亡的時候提供基本的生活保障113年勞保的投保單位計是61萬家被保險人數有1047萬餘人"},{"start":2393.326,"end":2411.384,"text":"为强化劳保的保障自开办以来也陆续修正相关规定比较大的调整是在98年的时候实施了劳保年金制度将失能老年及死亡三种给付由一次给付改采定期持续性的年金给付以确保劳工及医署可以获得长期的经济生活保障"},{"start":2412.125,"end":2439.927,"text":"劳保实施年金制度后相较以往的一次性给付有了几个比较大的重要制度调整包含年金给付因年资采计无上限固有保月九零月多活月九零月多的性质老年年金也设有展延期减额年金的设计让劳工能按自身生涯规划及需求选择是否延后或提前勤领给付在为维持实质购买力当"},{"start":2440.968,"end":2459.979,"text":"消費者物價指數累計成長率達5%年金請你金額也會跟著調整另外請領勞保老年給付需要達勞保年資滿15年的條件考量勞工進出勞動市場平凡也設計了勞保與國保年資可以並計並分別請領勞保及國保的老年給付機制"},{"start":2465.402,"end":2481.796,"text":"目前隨著勞保制度邁入成熟期 勞工勤領老年給付的人數及金額逐年增加123年勤領老年一次性給付有八萬九千元年額年額付金額為851億元123年底勤領年金給付有180萬元年額付金額為4176億元在"},{"start":2492.825,"end":2509.272,"text":"老年年金給付的平均勤理金額部分也呈現逐年上升趨勢由98年的12000元提高到123年的19000元勞保對勞工而言是很重要的社會安全制度為維持制度的運作政府從109年起連續6年撥補勞保基金也編列義後特別預算額外300億元的挹注總計編列3870億元"},{"start":2520.376,"end":2525.208,"text":"且在搭配多元投資運用下,勞保基金累存餘額已從撥補前的7188億元成長到上兆的規模"},{"start":2530.779,"end":2550.446,"text":"未來本部會市政府財政爭取維持過去年度撥補金額原則續編預算挹注勞保基金並透過鼓勵勞工續留職場積極辦理強化納保及給付省合作業並搭配多元的基金投資等行政作為維持勞保制度穩健運作"},{"start":2551.346,"end":2565.571,"text":"有關外界關心政府撥補及最後支付責任入法的議題本部尊重委員的修法提案又因制度調整涉及其他面向也將通盤研議評估接下來勞工退休金的部分"},{"start":2566.838,"end":2587.512,"text":"勞退制度開始於民國40年的台灣省工廠工人退休規則及台灣省礦工退休規則但為使勞工工作勞動條件保障更為完善並擴大適用對象於73年制定公佈勞動基準法以退休專章明定勞工退休條件"},{"start":2588.433,"end":2617.083,"text":"雇主给付标准以及罚则但是因我国中小企业居多平均全训年限短很难在同一家事业单位工作到退休另一方面劳工也会有职业上的变动需求可是一旦离职转换工作工作年资并无法累积种种原因导致这笔退休金往往看得到吃不到因而开启劳退就职制改革并于94年7月1日实施劳工退休金条例也就是劳退新制"},{"start":2617.803,"end":2624.589,"text":"為改善勞退救治的問題並增進勞工退休權益勞退新制改採確定提撥制"},{"start":2626.601,"end":2655.518,"text":"由雇主每月提繳勞工工資6%以上之退休金至勞工個人帳戶讓勞工可以退休金帶著走自此勞工不再因轉換或被迫轉換工作影響勤領退休金之權益此外為使勞工可以為退休後的經濟需求多做準備累積退休所得勞退薪資讓勞工也可以在每月工資6%的範圍內自願提繳退休金配套上透過"},{"start":2656.238,"end":2679.838,"text":"免列計年度所得課稅之稅負優惠鼓勵勞工自願提繳而勞工請你退休金時並提供不低於兩年期定期存款利率之保證收益保本又保利的方式來穩定勞工退休生活自94年7月1日退休勞退新制實施開始截至114年3月底勞退新制是提繳事業單"},{"start":2682.038,"end":2708.909,"text":"以提繳的事业单位已达59万余加总提繳的人数是760万余人平均提繳的工资为46938元令经政府多年的努力宣导劳工资源提繳的退休金人数也目前达超过120万人目前领取退月退休金件数是204833件领一次退休金件数是120万"},{"start":2711.722,"end":2727.239,"text":"5668件那這個我想保障每一位勞工老年基本經濟生活穩固勞保及退勞退制度的發展讓勞工可以安穩退休是政府持續努力的目標以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝好謝謝部長"},{"start":2735.871,"end":2758.502,"text":"那有關本市會議各項書面資料進列入紀錄刊登公報那我們現在開始詢答 做以下先告等委員會詢答時間8分鐘 列席4分鐘10點半截止花園登記委員如果有書面質詢 請一三位請提出 預期不受理暫定10點半左右 休息10分鐘"},{"start":2759.562,"end":2769.865,"text":"沿著上11點處理臨時提案11點半臨時提案然後11點截止說案那我們現在請第一位委員陳昭芝發言謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長請"},{"start":2784.535,"end":2812.942,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白你的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障"},{"start":2814.162,"end":2815.504,"text":"但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆"},{"start":2833.044,"end":2849.396,"text":"上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說"},{"start":2856.121,"end":2877.898,"text":"撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是鴕鳥心態啊就是就是一年透過一年啊就是說我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來來持續燒嘛燒人民納稅其實部長我並沒有反對撥補啊但是政府不應該把這個撥補當做唯一的"},{"start":2880.74,"end":2891.429,"text":"解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長石發基他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕"},{"start":2899.096,"end":2920.212,"text":"他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎"},{"start":2928.797,"end":2942.718,"text":"我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行"},{"start":2944.834,"end":2966.961,"text":"各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年10月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費"},{"start":2972.583,"end":2991.162,"text":"如果財務基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的"},{"start":2992.003,"end":3009.626,"text":"他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎"},{"start":3010.353,"end":3034.671,"text":"我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢 我的重點還是入法入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎 我有簽你也簽啊 就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重"},{"start":3035.319,"end":3053.473,"text":"那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅積剩餘的財源其實我們就是這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補"},{"start":3059.757,"end":3082.358,"text":"所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法"},{"start":3083.419,"end":3087.564,"text":"入法是白紙黑字他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了"},{"start":3098.556,"end":3121.096,"text":"您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在院會的咨詢其實我想行政院跟院長其實有時候表達是持開放的態度我覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個"},{"start":3123.178,"end":3148.538,"text":"我們就等著那個主決議的修正的內容看怎麼來開始開始開始動手那部長今天我在報告中沒有看到就是說台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然說勞保有70幾年歷史那我們台灣的那個照護產業跟這個基層製造業非常高度仰賴這個移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞"},{"start":3149.678,"end":3175.344,"text":"那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那臺灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限"},{"start":3177.625,"end":3198.322,"text":"雖然看護工可以再滿足這個所謂的評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限 還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工 使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的"},{"start":3204.687,"end":3220.093,"text":"沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容"},{"start":3224.634,"end":3239.125,"text":"你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主"},{"start":3243.829,"end":3265.787,"text":"那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂"},{"start":3266.488,"end":3294.275,"text":"不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是"},{"start":3296.095,"end":3318.654,"text":"第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介"},{"start":3319.735,"end":3339.128,"text":"那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的"},{"start":3343.569,"end":3363.668,"text":"您今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年"},{"start":3364.188,"end":3379.533,"text":"所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是"},{"start":3380.313,"end":3397.04,"text":"我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介"},{"start":3398.5,"end":3420.849,"text":"讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實有人在講的我們確實接下來是希望有未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合"},{"start":3421.949,"end":3439.935,"text":"產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的"},{"start":3440.515,"end":3455.461,"text":"部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用"},{"start":3456.141,"end":3476.443,"text":"那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘入過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊"},{"start":3478.344,"end":3502.121,"text":"委員並不是新的來源我跟委員說我還是要強調就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我們希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升"},{"start":3502.621,"end":3517.837,"text":"我另外再提一點請說家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重了制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利嘛"},{"start":3518.657,"end":3545.504,"text":"那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一群為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎"},{"start":3546.605,"end":3562.527,"text":"我當然同 我現在也還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士量表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的...我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力的在準備相關的配套"},{"start":3563.728,"end":3578.618,"text":"現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況"},{"start":3579.158,"end":3596.266,"text":"那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來"},{"start":3598.587,"end":3611.439,"text":"你過去我們有一些惡名嘛這個也是不爭之事實啦希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席謝謝接下來我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":3629.698,"end":3633.041,"text":"有請我們的勞動部 洪部長請部長部長早"},{"start":3643.021,"end":3671.429,"text":"日本那個社會學者藤田孝典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那台灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度上比我們更早所以想問也就是說"},{"start":3672.129,"end":3699.896,"text":"兼下流老人的問題在於經濟安全所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份子特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊 零工啊"},{"start":3700.481,"end":3708.626,"text":"在勞退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人"},{"start":3709.639,"end":3730.712,"text":"我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們"},{"start":3732.193,"end":3747.358,"text":"藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持"},{"start":3750.68,"end":3774.35,"text":"那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資"},{"start":3775.65,"end":3802.627,"text":"投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元一個月這樣看起來可以領23440元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活"},{"start":3803.007,"end":3830.653,"text":"基本需求他大概要撫養其他的比如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保勞退錢是不夠用的那是不是應該要提醒勞工所以部長您覺得因為我們現在看到的事實上是我覺得勞動部對這個問題好像一直是避重就輕沒有做好社會溝通所以部長是不是可以去負起這樣的傳遞真實訊息的責任"},{"start":3834.547,"end":3860.412,"text":"第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到"},{"start":3861.312,"end":3880.511,"text":"這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子"},{"start":3881.272,"end":3903.94,"text":"所以在退休收入不足的狀況下 勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們 勞工透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活 甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了 那就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做"},{"start":3904.96,"end":3920.679,"text":"那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的"},{"start":3921.159,"end":3946.672,"text":"投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是演的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领"},{"start":3948.529,"end":3959.502,"text":"4616元的勞退基金來說的話自體6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自體自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講"},{"start":3963.784,"end":3981.217,"text":"因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資失利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點"},{"start":3982.998,"end":4009.088,"text":"所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎我就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以"},{"start":4012.489,"end":4037.368,"text":"我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎"},{"start":4040.189,"end":4066.798,"text":"報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講"},{"start":4069.638,"end":4089.366,"text":"來講的話投報的那個效高那跟勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾交代清楚再表達你們的"},{"start":4090.293,"end":4104.227,"text":"反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這真的都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險"},{"start":4106.448,"end":4126.724,"text":"那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高"},{"start":4135.39,"end":4140.254,"text":"勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何"},{"start":4151.741,"end":4178.754,"text":"確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通"},{"start":4179.834,"end":4203.644,"text":"其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比較像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些"},{"start":4204.584,"end":4230.862,"text":"這裡面會有一些挑戰那我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助那我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製成的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用"},{"start":4234.745,"end":4252.064,"text":"所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时职缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做"},{"start":4252.54,"end":4267.88,"text":"因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他坐整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他"},{"start":4269.36,"end":4298.046,"text":"他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二剛才在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已"},{"start":4298.926,"end":4328.024,"text":"我們會來把植物在設計在在各個產業或各種職類上面在推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物在設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前呢提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到"},{"start":4329.167,"end":4340.162,"text":"退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲屆齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何"},{"start":4341.145,"end":4359.338,"text":"跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告最後就期待我剛剛今天質詢的這四點麻煩"},{"start":4360.202,"end":4375.411,"text":"我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題好謝謝謝謝我們請劉建國委員好謝謝主席來部長就不用再坐下去了請部長謝謝請部長上來"},{"start":4389.605,"end":4413.963,"text":"根據勞金局公布的最新資料目前勞動基金總規模是7兆1千多億在今年美國對等關稅影響下已經虧損了將近1千9百多億如果再加上委託管理的國民年金保險基金還有這個農民的退休基金應該是總虧損高達2千多億然後民間有個說法就是說平均每年賠1萬多"},{"start":4415.464,"end":4435.587,"text":"你覺得這樣的說法正確嗎如果不正確請趕快更正說明清楚我想這個說法當然是不對的勞工朋友提繳的年金那是絕對不會減少的尤其是像在我們勞退機制裡面其實就有保障的收益制度雖然看起來"},{"start":4436.768,"end":4465.988,"text":"這過去一段時間因為美國關稅的原因所以它在收益上面是有些波動但是我們在這個勞退的保障收益機制裡面其實是有確保其實累積的收益一定會是不低於銀行兩年期定存利率的保障收益那這是勞退的部分那勞保的部分我們是確定給付制所以基金收益的波動是不會影響到勞保給付的金額我想這部分是我們一定會來跟社會來講清楚剛剛委員在講說市面上面在流傳的這個說法我想它是不正確"},{"start":4466.688,"end":4490.395,"text":"對 所以你們就是站在勞動部的這個立場一定要儘早把這事情說明清楚不然好像兩千多一起處理兩千三百萬人平均每一個人要賠一萬多這種算法實在是有在勞動民心我覺得是很不正確原本投資是有起有落那我們有設定所謂的保障機制基本上就不可能有這種事情發生所以這必須要儘快的"},{"start":4490.955,"end":4511.472,"text":"說明清楚是其一但是美國關稅90天期間將至在7月8日前或許我們會朝向好的方向去發展也或許會朝向不是好的方向去發展來不如這邊針對相關的基金運用上有沒有什麼因應的作為跟基本的方針"},{"start":4513.733,"end":4523.808,"text":"因為當川普大陸宣布這樣的事情的情況之下確實造成很大的市場上的波動那我們現在不曉得南東部的因應作用是什麼"},{"start":4525.046,"end":4547.984,"text":"我想因為現在台灣的我們國家的談判團隊正在跟美國在做這個關稅的談判但是我想勞動部有可能就像剛剛文說有可能比較往好的狀況發展也有可能往比較這個嚴峻的狀況那從勞動部的角度我們當然一定會把情境設定是比較嚴峻的狀況來去做相關的準備"},{"start":4548.424,"end":4576.759,"text":"因為如果嚴峻的狀況你過得了的話好的狀況其實當然就也比較能夠過所以我們包括現在在這個現在的這個特別條例裡面其實已經有規劃了150億的這個經費那如果150億來協助來支持我們勞動朋友度過關稅的這樣子的衝擊還不夠的話其實我們也還有包括我們的救保或者是救安的基金其實可以來支應不是不是不是部長我的問題focus是在這個"},{"start":4578.62,"end":4599.851,"text":"勞動基金的運用這些相關的基金有沒有一個具體的方針然後避免這樣的這個基金的虧損持續擴大對不對跟委員報告我們勞動基金的運用我們一向就是從長期來看市場的波動一定有我當然說是從長期來看啦不是看短暫的這個我非常清楚嘛對不對但是因為"},{"start":4600.931,"end":4624.943,"text":"因為川普大帝的這樣的一個震撼力有時候真的你必須要去有一些具體的因應方針來做處理我們會持續關我們一向本來就是會關注市場的變化隨時來調整那在市場整個大跌的時候我們的基金的運用絕對不會像市場所說的全部殺出認賠出來這個反而對我們基金不利"},{"start":4628.945,"end":4640.978,"text":"那我要補充說明你不要出言你不用在委會講你只要跟我講說因為這個美國對你關稅而且7月8日到期有沒有任何的你們有評估過的相關研擬的具體方針可以來做這樣的"},{"start":4643.943,"end":4663.054,"text":"較好的營運 避免基金的虧損擴大 就這樣而已委員跟您報告這個投資本來每天就要看市場所以我們內部隨時都在調整我們的策略我們基本上我們每年有一個大策略但是我們每季也有我們隨時都在"},{"start":4664.755,"end":4683.961,"text":"你們每年都有大策略我知道但是你們每年大策略沒有包含到川普的這種個性的死難嘛所以他是一個很突破狀況他是一個很不確定的狀況他是一個從頭到尾我們不可預知的一個狀態情況之下劉謙許有沒有相關的因應的具體方針這樣就好了啦你簡單回應我就好好不好"},{"start":4685.515,"end":4703.554,"text":"有沒有啦有有好謝謝這樣就好了不要再講下去了你又說到時候是因為你的一些講話造成一些波動這樣也不好對不對好我們接著請請回吧請部長你再看一下因為是受到美國人關稅這樣的一個影響嘛目前這個全台15星價"},{"start":4704.475,"end":4715.94,"text":"已經達到155家受影響的勞工高達2800多人無薪假當然是直接影響勞工的大議題未來七八個月會不會有更多企業、廠家提出無薪假通報我們不能去預估"},{"start":4719.346,"end":4743.455,"text":"未來這幾個月到底可能會有在多少家提出來然後我們針對這幾家可能受到衝擊是怎麼樣有沒有去做相關的一些預估各位報告其實我們一直在密切的監測跟關注現在這個我們會講減班休息因為他並不是真的無薪啦那這個減班休息加速那確實現在是大概其實是有微幅的緩步的上升"},{"start":4744.375,"end":4769.035,"text":"那但是17月8號之後會不會原有的直接沖洗變成間接沖洗這個影響會不會更大我們現在其實我們也做好相關的準備了這個準備其實就包括我們的僱用安定措施包括我們這個充電再觸發的措施都是如果接下來這個無薪假確實有擴大的話怎麼樣來支持我們可能會受影響的勞工在收入上面的這個減損那我們怎麼樣來協助"},{"start":4771.957,"end":4797.018,"text":"所以這幾個我們都做包括剛剛在講到就是說透過特別條例的150億那也包括我們的救保的基金其實就是來做這方面的因應好 我只是要提醒部長因為我還是特別強調剛剛上個題目問題是一樣的因為你面對川普的狀況很多事情你是很難預估的然後我們或許跟美國談後來可能會朝向很好的方向去發展那有些事情就一恩而解嘛"},{"start":4798.018,"end":4816.507,"text":"那萬一不是呢相反之那勞動部可能要辦起更重大的這樣的一個應變的能力跟責任嘛現在確實減班休息裡面目前看起來是在比較多那有幾個特定的產業其實增加的幅度會多一點可是我們其實很密切在監測也主動的跟這些相關的工會或者產業在座座談來提供我們協助"},{"start":4817.708,"end":4846.474,"text":"不過我是針對點的這一個現在我們遇到這個狀況真的是跟以前完全不一樣那如果我用兩千萬半兩千萬以下來對比當時全國實施無薪假高達五百八十幾家啦受到影響的勞工將近快到二十四萬嘛對不對那我們我們新任的調兵師我們黃師長宋永是這麼講嘛目前對等對美的這個對等關稅能有高度的不確定性台灣也正與美國談判中政府採取謹慎態度密切掌握通報的事業單位狀況"},{"start":4847.854,"end":4869.589,"text":"會主動聯繫通報事業單位進行輔導方式提供勞動部勞動力發展署如充電再出發訓練計畫僱用安定措施等支援以保障勞工權利對不對OK沒問題我請教一下目前155家有提出充電再出發訓練計畫還有僱用安定措施有幾家"},{"start":4870.953,"end":4897.421,"text":"現在是比較少的 目前有提出為什麼會比較少因為不好用因為不知道怎麼用應該是確實有些僱主我們其實有問他說你要不要提出比方說充電材出發可是僱主目前是說他沒有意願你們要去鼓勵他們要提出嘛對不對當然而且我們現在其實在甚至檢討因為過去其實是要透過僱主才能夠申請我們現在新的設計勞工直接就可以申請不然你能不能直接打給我150家目前"},{"start":4898.121,"end":4908.272,"text":"提出是幾家啦 簡單就好這兩個計畫 充電站目前是七家七家 七家這樣不到一趴多對 啊僱用勒 僱用安定措施"},{"start":4909.185,"end":4933.548,"text":"顧問安定措施現在是大概30家30家兩成多合理嗎合不合理嗎我們確實覺得要再提高所以這也是為什麼我們現在是設計我們自己包括勞動部跟地方政府我們會主動的來聯繫已經放這個減班休息的勞工你們的計畫到底是不是沒有吸引力"},{"start":4937.646,"end":4956.495,"text":"我自己覺得當很多的雇主他聽完完整的了解我們計畫的設計以後他們是覺得這是不錯的有吸引力的可是確實現在是有很多的企業他對我們相關的企業都覺得有吸引力然後又不提出然後提出又是一層多那你還覺得有一些聽完他就有來表達155家目前為止執行有聽完的幾家"},{"start":4960.447,"end":4977.619,"text":"我們其實都沒有主動聯繫啦沒有主動聯繫不然你怎麼會講說有幾家聽起來覺得還不錯是幾家嘛我們一個電台資料基本上要有個基本的數額嘛對不對155家如果是有一家兩家聽到覺得還不錯這兩家又不提出來那這真的還不錯了"},{"start":4982.15,"end":4985.133,"text":"監察院這個報告裡面這當然不是新的署長的任內也不是部長任內"},{"start":4992.984,"end":5017.792,"text":"老化福青年自來發展中心運作長達12年能為訂定福基線均與產出型指標衡量績效至達成旅超標200%甚至破千以上能夠提升青年就業資成效為敏因為優先對就業不利的青年族群建構差異性自來福島模式福利內容高度重疊交易部門導致相關經費預算乃至專職專業人力長期低度投資已發展"},{"start":5022.814,"end":5049.484,"text":"我要一次講這兩個事情啦這是監察院剛剛糾正的5月21號糾正的沒有錯嘛對不對好那我再回歸到頭這裡面還有很多洋洋灑灑寫的一大堆東西啦齁我再回歸到頭就是說你的充電債出發你的職癌你的僱用安定措施到底陳如妮說的好不好用聽了大家都覺得還不錯但是大家都不提出申請還是提出申請的比例非常低"},{"start":5051.379,"end":5055.874,"text":"應該就是有檢討的必要的空間了嘛對不對對當然當然都有精進的空間"},{"start":5058.723,"end":5066.951,"text":"什麼時候可以檢討盤整完成 提出修正相關的計畫因為7月8號快到了 到時候還是這個計畫一層多 那個計畫兩層多關於充電災出發的部分 我們其實近期我們已經都取得了這些可能放減班休息勞工的聯繫方式 我們會直接聯繫這個勞工本人"},{"start":5081.485,"end":5097.266,"text":"不一定一定非得要透過僱主因為過去就是僱主他覺得他他沒有意願可是這可能會影響了勞工來舉舉的自己的權利變化就是說原有僱主提出申請現在勞工可以提出申請嘛對不對好這個應變的措施我OK我接受但是實質的內容"},{"start":5099.827,"end":5122.482,"text":"真的有幫助嗎真的覺得不錯嗎還是部長你個人認為不錯他其實能夠獲得的訓練的津貼那其實是對於勞工在收入上面的影響是有幫助的我們就要檢視現在才六月初而已嘛我們六月底來檢視嘛反正我們這是研會到七月底了對不對這一個月內如果這兩個計畫你都沒有辦法因為一個一成多實在很難去幫你訂這個KPI啦你都沒有辦法超過五成"},{"start":5130.359,"end":5133.554,"text":"那你這兩個計畫要不要大幅的去修正?要不要?"},{"start":5134.741,"end":5162.02,"text":"要不要?我們會強化的來執行但是你不能逼人家執行啊你不能在委員會說大家聽起來都不錯啊但是我們就不要申請啊結果你如果說我怎樣怎樣他就給你打出來申請結果那個還是假的就像監察院糾正的狀況狀況的事情會持續發生我不好意思再唸下去的這幾項再唸下去真的這個老蛙署新來的署長可能你要有相關的因應作為"},{"start":5163.53,"end":5184.742,"text":"因為監察院已經提出糾正 你不要未來這兩個計畫又被糾正不好 我只是提醒一個月內相關的調整計畫 成立委員會然後提高申請的比例 破50% OK 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長 謝謝各位辛苦了好 謝謝我們劉建國召委接下來我們請陳金輝委員質詢"},{"start":5193.519,"end":5198.801,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員還有我想請洪孫安部長好 請洪部長教練好"},{"start":5206.501,"end":5234.463,"text":"部長我們現在觀光面臨一個很大的問題我們預期希望有1000萬的觀光客但是只來了700萬再來還有很嚴重的缺工那1111人力銀行有個調查目前旅宿產業有30%的業者反映說他們有聘僱移工的需求調查也指出說為什麼他們需要聘用移工是因為第一可以補足人力的缺口再來可以解決排班的困境"},{"start":5235.103,"end":5250.928,"text":"然後有立即上工的即戰力但本席感到不解的是就算您有跟觀光署開會或者是沒有開會為什麼是由觀光署來宣布說旅宿業將有條件來開放移工這件事情"},{"start":5252.465,"end":5278.428,"text":"跟文說明我們當然確實有跟觀光署來進行一些意見的交換但是我想很清楚相關的政策當然還是有勞動部來主政是那您是什麼時候會來宣布相關的資訊因為旅宿業者關心的是現在快要暑假了嘛家長們要帶小朋友在國內玩或是國外旅客也會過來可他們現在人力嚴重不足如果您已經有觀光署開會他們想知道說"},{"start":5279.389,"end":5301.59,"text":"您預計是從哪些國家或者說這個期程是如何大概人數是多少您可以給我們一些基本的資訊嗎根本說明因為這涉及到其實跨國勞動力的政策的變更那針對跨國勞動力政策其實當然我們都會有幾個最重要的原則第一個是要避免這個本國勞工的就業機會受到影響那甚至我們在接下來的這個機制的設計裡面"},{"start":5304.492,"end":5331.558,"text":"我們還希望能夠促成其實能夠對於本勞的加薪其實是有幫助的那再來其實就是很就是剛剛委員其實講到當然我們也希望能夠兼顧產業能夠有充足的勞動力可以來運用甚至有助於企業的流財那所以這幾個部分是我們在思考這些相關政策的原則那的確現在我們還在做進一步的政策的評估之中部長你剛剛講的都很好但是"},{"start":5332.558,"end":5360.408,"text":"觀光署已經宣布有條件開放所以你這邊是不是也是有條件開放我要再說一次這個政策是由勞動部來主政勞動部來宣布勞動部來主政跨國勞動力的政策是勞動部在主政所以之後其實您還會再正式的發佈對我們現在在做進一步的研議跟包括我們這些相關的研議之後我們會再來跟社會各界來報告那當然最後我們的政策的走向好"},{"start":5362.189,"end":5384.941,"text":"講到這個的話因為剛我有發現劉建國委員已經很在意你們有許許多多的專案執行率都非常的差那這個當然你也會知道勞動部去年八月底開放畢業的僑外生可以任職旅宿業現在已經六月了幾乎已經過一年你也知道現在有幾個人申請吧應該知道蠻少的很少"},{"start":5386.055,"end":5404.374,"text":"就只有一個人啊對剛剛他講一趴兩趴兩成其實這些數據大家已經覺得難以想像了結果呢你開放喬外申來任職旅宿業一年來就只有一個人申請這個是不是也需要大幅的做改革啊"},{"start":5405.151,"end":5427.194,"text":"跟文說明確實這個喬艾森從事理事會的部分他其實會有個條件是要先經過觀光署或者是相關的觀光的單位他要經過80個小時的課程可是我們這個過程裡面我們一直在督促觀光署應該要盡快的來召開相關的課程所以一直到近期比較相關的課程才開出來"},{"start":5427.734,"end":5447.126,"text":"所以你的意思是說觀光署課程的密度跟頻繁度比較少以至於有意願的人想申請我們一直在提醒觀光署要趕快把課程給開出來所以您那邊已經有多少人跟您反映說因為觀光署的課程不夠頻繁所以他們沒辦法來做"},{"start":5447.506,"end":5456.061,"text":"就是我們一直在督促他因為確實這個喬艾森要申請中階的這件事情是會要經過80個小時的這樣子的訓練的"},{"start":5460.373,"end":5484.084,"text":"但你還是需要做改變除了增加頻率以外你有沒有別的想法否則我們就是一個人如果都一直都一個人怎麼辦我想我們會很積極的來改善這個相關的勞動力的問題所以現在大家在討論包括這些跨國勞動力但是我還是講前提是怎麼樣不要影響國內的就業或者本國勞工的就業還有我們的這些相關的勞動條件"},{"start":5485.267,"end":5499.076,"text":"好 我來跟你說為什麼這是許多人發現的啦除了你們勞動部有說要用到畢業的橋外生交通部今年2025年1月1號提出了這個觀光旅館業以及旅館業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點"},{"start":5503.338,"end":5519.508,"text":"業者只要透過這個實習要點用外籍學生來台實習就可以規避掉勞動部的工作許可申請勞基法還有繁瑣的行政流程那你知道他自從開放這個要點1月1號至今有多少人申請嗎"},{"start":5524.079,"end":5545.536,"text":"一千人所以現在觀光署那邊從這個外籍的實習生一千人喔然後再加上教育部原有的觀光類僑生建教合作專班已經69名所以你現在要解決這個人力的缺口是1069比上1顯然你的政策是不及格的啦"},{"start":5551.667,"end":5567.495,"text":"那當然很多業者他是反應說開放外籍實習生來台填補旅宿業的人力缺口他們覺得是一股活水可是非常久之計但可以補人力的不足但是人力問題其實沒有解決為什麼"},{"start":5568.536,"end":5582.672,"text":"因為交通部的這個方案大概是兩年那如果是一般的建交合作教育部的方案大概四年四年左右或是再長一點點但這並沒有辦法解決他們長期的人力缺口啊那另外呢"},{"start":5584.474,"end":5609.309,"text":"這個假實習但是真工作明末向是為了建教合作但其實是讓學生做廉價的打工這是監察院以前糾舉過教育部的問題所以站在勞工的立場你是勞動部的大家長你有沒有辦法去明確的跟這些部門溝通工作模式到底實習跟工作的差別到底在哪裡"},{"start":5611.055,"end":5632.376,"text":"跟委員說明確實現在這些實習生在這個實習場所裡面他們的狀況那當然需要從個案的事實去來做認定不過我想我們在這些申訴跟檢舉的管道也是暢通的那如果外界或學生有疑慮的話我們都可以來協助檢視就是他的他是否這個勞動的狀態其實我想勞動部都願意來檢視"},{"start":5635.39,"end":5653.891,"text":"那你有沒有考慮找教育部、交通部來進行合作前往這些有申請實習的單位來進行勞檢的調查那個我跟倫說明確實現在關於實習的部分現在這個在主政的其實是教育部那"},{"start":5655.733,"end":5673.844,"text":"那他的勞動場域但是我們也很樂意我們一直跟不管是教育部也好或者是僑友會或者是包括這些產業主管機關表達我們非常非常樂意跟大家一起討論如果大家在勞動狀態的認定上面是有疑義需要專業的協助的話我們都願意來做這部分的協助"},{"start":5674.925,"end":5693.639,"text":"他們可能不會主動告訴你因為他們曾經被糾舉過我是問您願不願意主動出擊如果他們被糾舉有被檢舉那在個案上面我們是我們當然都會願意來協助來做小關的檢視那您剛提到的這些申訴的管道你要如何去下達到他們工作的場域呢"},{"start":5694.079,"end":5705.698,"text":"我們這部分我們可以讓大家知道其實我們就告訴各部會其實也讓大家知道或外界包括學生也好外界也好如果有疑慮的對工作狀態有疑慮的其實我覺得都可以來提出相關的申請或檢舉"},{"start":5706.667,"end":5735.401,"text":"好下一個是剛您提到的低薪的問題這點你也非常理解嘛好那有些業者他雖然沒有辦法立即的做加薪但我舉個例子比如說很有名的雲品酒店他就把週休兩日改成週休三日因此他的員工留任率非常的高那我有注意到你們的勞動力發展署跟觀光署有合作啟動一個飯店業專案媒合計畫今天真的一直講到勞動力發展署啊"},{"start":5736.381,"end":5749.757,"text":"這個媒合計畫的執行率也是很差你們知道為什麼吧其實我想 其實媒合率應該媒合率是可以提高啦是有可以提高跟經濟的空間不過當然我們也在"},{"start":5751.152,"end":5773.984,"text":"好 我跟你說一下答案有66%經常性薪資未達2.8萬元85.84%未達3萬元表示這個勞務的負荷跟薪資不成正比的情況下你就很難媒合成功嘛還有 他還有一個性別差異男女平均薪資的差異甚鉅男性平均是4萬6599女性3萬6809"},{"start":5778.146,"end":5795.743,"text":"那我們今年有個口號是千萬旅客觀光立國的目標現在勞動部長有沒有辦法藉由不管是人力的缺口或者是待遇的提高你有沒有辦法協助觀光署兩個部門一起去達到這個我們要達到觀光立國的目標"},{"start":5797.345,"end":5820.756,"text":"跟委員說明確實現在在旅宿業的低薪勞工的比例比較高這個問題是我們在考慮跨國勞動力開放與否很核心在思考的命題也就是說我們很不希望這個跨國勞動力的開放造成在產業裡面的低薪低勞的效果"},{"start":5821.696,"end":5847.383,"text":"所以這是為什麼我們認為這個政策在整體的考慮不是很簡單要開放就開放不是這樣在思考而是必須顧及到本土勞工本國勞工的薪資狀況會不會受到影響這是為什麼我們很審慎的原因這就是我們現在在政策在設計我們要去考慮的核心那我兩個月可以拿到書面報告嗎你打算怎麼解決"},{"start":5849.287,"end":5858.537,"text":"我想我們現在持續的在研議也在持續的在評估或者是設計方案但是確實就是希望來去面對尤其是禮數院或者是服務院裡面的問題"},{"start":5861.498,"end":5880.923,"text":"我們現在整體在這個政策的評估因為目前是還沒有設定特定的時間點沒有設定特定的時間點好最後一個問題這個是您二月曾經召開的記者會說面對勞檢員離職率居高不下而且每一年都有100多位的缺口"},{"start":5881.423,"end":5902.656,"text":"高壓 高危險 家計也非常的低所以要推出一個專案名字叫做勞動檢查員專業能力以及工作支持方案我想問這個工作支持方案是希望把他們的工作數位化 智慧化等等這個要分四年的時間來推動您這四年預計是花多少的經費來進行"},{"start":5906.068,"end":5925.585,"text":"跟委員報告,大概我們這個這個方案基本上兩大面向,就是一個剛剛委員提到的是他在執法工具的資訊化、智慧化跟這個行動化,另外一部分是個人的專業的提升跟他的安全,個人的在執法上的一個安全維護"},{"start":5928.567,"end":5936.896,"text":"我昨天6月3號才跟行政院求證你2月的時候開了一個這麼盛大的記者會行政院說勞動部至今還沒有呈報這項專案計畫對 這個部分是在我們部裡面的一個計畫這部裡面的一個專案的計畫所以你會呈報嗎"},{"start":5952.037,"end":5969.242,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分如果是我們把計畫呈報給部長這邊來核定基本上這個計畫就展開了所以你們有信心2026年就會開始跟委員報告其實已經經費在籌備已經有一個大概的經費因為我剛剛有問你這個經費打算"},{"start":5971.763,"end":5987.89,"text":"經費的部分基本上在公務跟基金我們還是要做一個分開依照它的用途那我們目前初估大概是前兩年大概是兩千多萬到三四年會花到三四年那你這個缺口你想要怎麼解決每年一百多人的缺口你希望每年可以縮短多少"},{"start":5993.871,"end":6022.739,"text":"那個跟文說沒有 這部分會分兩個部分 一個是勞檢員人力這個員額的部分 剛才文其實後面講的應該是員額的部分不過我們這個計劃的本身其實是針對勞檢員本身他的資能包括他的裝備包括他的整個的支持的體系的提升所以這個計劃其實這個已經 某個部分已經正在進行中了那其實這個報導部裡面我們其實就可以來進行好 謝謝"},{"start":6026.001,"end":6049.514,"text":"好 我們謝謝陳金輝委員的資訊那我們請陳委員來代主席 謝謝好 那下一位我們請王玉民委員好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長 部長王委員好"},{"start":6054.793,"end":6081.139,"text":"部長好部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然"},{"start":6084.68,"end":6102.431,"text":"一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢"},{"start":6103.762,"end":6129.732,"text":"跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員現在提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把"},{"start":6131.112,"end":6143.979,"text":"台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果"},{"start":6147.182,"end":6163.676,"text":"要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道如果連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局"},{"start":6164.336,"end":6190.814,"text":"他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安"},{"start":6192.054,"end":6208.765,"text":"這邊所以是中央負責那南克管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央"},{"start":6209.665,"end":6218.429,"text":"那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠"},{"start":6237.332,"end":6262.47,"text":"跟委員報告 如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的調解那如果只有調解 地方政府依照相關的法令會進行調解的一些協助幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立 他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償"},{"start":6263.331,"end":6291.745,"text":"但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個南科管理局南科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務"},{"start":6293.41,"end":6302.116,"text":"為授權南科管理局辦理然後這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責"},{"start":6304.802,"end":6328.287,"text":"根據我的報告,基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對?是你們?不是,因為現在這個家科是剛在整地,剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程,我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作,就像竹科、中科、南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局"},{"start":6328.607,"end":6335.796,"text":"是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發"},{"start":6345.447,"end":6372.917,"text":"核准什么都是他那你们只是负责公安的部分那既然他从头到尾负责这个部分为什么不要让他的角色一开始都可以加进来双重的监督不是对于这个整个的公安的这个监督会有更强化效果吗因为他在地你们南区你们是设在高雄吧你们还更远所以这件事情从这件事情我认为劳动部应该回过头去检讨这种比较特殊性的在科学园区的"},{"start":6373.459,"end":6391.494,"text":"看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個"},{"start":6403.443,"end":6425.227,"text":"熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎"},{"start":6429.588,"end":6447.405,"text":"我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電它在日本的它的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場它的現場同時多部的吊車在進行它的吊掛作業它的現場"},{"start":6454.372,"end":6469.822,"text":"你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的"},{"start":6473.124,"end":6492.077,"text":"就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的"},{"start":6493.018,"end":6515.399,"text":"可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場"},{"start":6517.165,"end":6543.638,"text":"可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分"},{"start":6544.798,"end":6571.332,"text":"好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個標掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎"},{"start":6572.802,"end":6588.974,"text":"我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安"},{"start":6590.115,"end":6608.625,"text":"這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來這個參考"},{"start":6610.846,"end":6637.798,"text":"這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或環安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安環安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個"},{"start":6638.678,"end":6652.31,"text":"比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說"},{"start":6661.479,"end":6675.655,"text":"因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的"},{"start":6676.095,"end":6695.467,"text":"他這樣子的一個紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個"},{"start":6696.588,"end":6719.682,"text":"非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護只要有人在一個人也是人兩個人也是人就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好"},{"start":6720.799,"end":6746.291,"text":"魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色就是不會靠近"},{"start":6747.091,"end":6770.127,"text":"所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長你竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動好沒問題謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":6776.105,"end":6781.208,"text":"好 謝謝王宇民委員謝謝部長 那繼續請邱政軍委員質詢主席好 我們請洪部長"},{"start":6799.815,"end":6805.82,"text":"邱委員好部長好部長我想請問你根據主計總數的統計我們2024年中央及地方政府的潛藏負債達到20兆6490億元其中勞保潛藏負債佔最大中有13兆6466億"},{"start":6825.236,"end":6852.882,"text":"那我要這樣講 勞工朋友每個月在繳保費就像定期的把錢丟進一個存錢筒那說想說等老了之後呢可以領回來過日子但現在這個存錢筒破了一個大洞政府每年拿稅金去補連補了八年已經到今年已經快四千億了 還是補不完那我想問部長 這個是不是該修理一下"},{"start":6854.571,"end":6872.248,"text":"還是要等到水都漏光了我們才開始修我想其實勞保財務的問題政府態度一直很清楚就是政府會負最後的責任你要怎麼負責任當然現在其實我們有很多不同的做法其實都是希望盡力在維持基金的水位你的錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":6873.929,"end":6898.064,"text":"包括我們這幾年其實在這個投資上面其實也效益是不錯的那撥補當然其實也是其中一個那其實我們有一些其他的做法希望再盡力的去拉升這個基金的水位你講到撥補撥補就像我們在一個破洞的這個容器裡面一直加水你認為一直加一直補水一直漏這樣有用嗎"},{"start":6899.385,"end":6927.904,"text":"其實撥補這幾年確實是達到一定維持基金水位的那以後呢你這個撥補總不能說變成一個永遠都用撥補的狀態吧你的政策不改嗎我們並不是要說一定要永遠的撥補可是撥補確實在那你現在除了撥補之外你還有沒有其他的想法想一些還更具體的做我想其實這幾年在基金的投資上面的效果是蠻好的那我包括我們也透過各種其他在包括剛剛講到說我們在鼓勵這個中高齡高齡者的就業跟這個"},{"start":6929.826,"end":6951.504,"text":"投入這個勞保那也包括其實我們在講話納保跟肌膚的審查我們總統當然也講過啦只要政府在勞保就不會倒那我在想我看到那個我們總統會的院長他說新財化法就會影響撥補的金額那個做法是不是在就跟總統的立場不一樣啊對不對"},{"start":6954.459,"end":6977.398,"text":"並沒有衝突 我想其實政府在沒有錢怎麼補啊 我們的態度就是政府在你 你就沒有錢啊 那你要怎麼補不是沒有錢 是確實是會有影響所以這是為什麼我們認為現在這個新修的財化法它在分配上面是有很大的意義的對 這也是行政不斷的在緊張 我現在講的問題就是說不管財化法或者是其他原因那它有可能"},{"start":6978.078,"end":6997.227,"text":"未來都是會發生的啦你不能說等到發生了你再來解決再來想說要怎麼樣解決這個問題我現在講的意思是這個我希望部長你是部長這是為什麼我們之前對於這個新修的財務法一直在表達其實真的要非常的非常的謹慎甚至他可能會有政府當然會負責嘛政府會負責那你說政府負責可是錢從哪裡來你要從稅徵收"},{"start":7004.411,"end":7020.641,"text":"還是去借那未來是誰還是我們的年輕人來去未來的年輕人去償還這些嗎對不對這一代的事情是不是應該在這一代來解決另外你說基金基金當然這10年來這個平均粉絲面可是還是逆差"},{"start":7021.762,"end":7043.589,"text":"制度本身這個還是逆差只是你不改革只是想靠投資來彌補年金的虧損你覺得這個是一個長久之計嗎我這樣跟你說明執政團隊的政府的立場當然就是政府會對勞保負最終的責任但我們也很希望國會可以支持"},{"start":7046.01,"end":7065.345,"text":"國會支持我們來確保中央政府相關的台政的狀況國會支持是一件事情不是說一直拿我們納稅人的錢去補啊你懂我意思嗎國會當然支持只要你有新的做法我們當然會支持可是如果你只是一直要挖錢來補這個洞你認為這是對的嗎"},{"start":7070.055,"end":7088.706,"text":"這文說明其實撥補這當然是現在是有助於維持勞保基金水位的一個現在是有效的做法所以這部分當然也是政府表達我們負責任態度其中的重要的做法之一我就跟你講了撥補不是長久之計"},{"start":7089.887,"end":7104.816,"text":"對不對 你已經補了四千億了 八年了那你還要補多久像你剛剛 你講說基金這幾年有賺錢那基金賺錢不代表夠用啊你去年在那個有一個補了 我看一下你去年賺多少錢你基金賺多少錢"},{"start":7119.605,"end":7147.385,"text":"去年賺了1629億那你今年一到四月你就虧了多少錢你就虧了快兩千億啊對不對你怎麼補呢老保是300我說基金基金賺了一千多億沒錯啊可是你今年一到四月你就虧了快兩千億啊不是不是不是1990億不是那是八個基金加起來八個基金"},{"start":7149.049,"end":7159.236,"text":"相信兩千億是八個基金 八個基金加起來那 勞保基金是三百 虧三百對啊 你還是不夠啊我認為這個都是不穩定的 你知道嗎"},{"start":7162.987,"end":7183.69,"text":"我們當然都盡力用各種方式去維持基金的水位你一直當然投資是一個來償還然後又用撥補然後又說你們會負責任那我現在要的是部長你是主管單位嘛對不對那你有沒有更具體的做法你有沒有想過你想要做什麼"},{"start":7185.407,"end":7207.165,"text":"我想我們其實就是用各種方式那包括多元開源的方式那剛剛也講到說其實我們也希望鼓勵更多中高齡或高齡者來回到職場那甚至加入投保那都希望透過這種方式來多挹注一些基金的水位跟開源你說什麼"},{"start":7208.81,"end":7228.965,"text":"你剛才再講一下我說我們現在政策上面其實也在鼓勵中高齡或高齡者的重返職場如果有更多的高齡者重返職場然後其實也投入勞保的話那我想都有機會他之前投的就快領不太到了你又快倒了你又叫他回來"},{"start":7230.356,"end":7250.396,"text":"就是兩件事吧我們不能用你這個想法如果這樣想法那大家都不要那這其實可能對勞保的財務來說會更嚴峻啊對啊所以我們當然是希望在這裡面有更多的開源的做法然後更多種可以提高效益的做法這當然是去維持基金財務的一個態度"},{"start":7252.418,"end":7272.471,"text":"所以並不是說現在基金怎樣所以大家就不要來投保那是反而保持基金更大的財務上面的威脅你除了這個你還有沒有更具體的呢有沒有想過有沒有想過要解決這個問題我們就是希望透過這些多元的做法來去做維持你覺得夠嗎 這些做法夠嗎"},{"start":7273.903,"end":7301.934,"text":"當然都可以再有更精進的空間可是目前我們其實就是希望這些方法那這些方法在這幾年其實對水位確實是有幫助的阿然後呢但是我覺得這樣子你只是延緩它破產對不對目前是這些做法是有延緩你這些做法只是延緩那我現在是要的是要有一個根本的有一個想有一個新的做法阿你部長你沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":7304.025,"end":7329.903,"text":"你沒有討論過 我想我們各種問題 我想我們各種方法其實都那你什麼時候 不然這樣啦 你要多久時間寫一個這個你的初步的一個想法給我我覺得 我可以 我們可以再做更多的討論喔甚至在這邊交換意見 不要討論不要討論只變成一個儀式嘛 那個然後又不了了之 然後又再演繹 這有什麼意義呢對不對 你是不是有一個具體的做法 我給你三個月時間"},{"start":7332.165,"end":7351.923,"text":"你寫一個方向我們當然要提供給委員一些接下來維持基金所要的做法我們可以提供好 謝謝部長好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢那在蘇清泉委員質詢完後休息十分鐘"},{"start":7361.608,"end":7381.258,"text":"謝謝主席 請洪部長部長好 辛苦了那昨天剛公布的勞保勞退的基金的績效在2025年的4月 單月我們勞退基金虧損高達多少"},{"start":7384.885,"end":7407.945,"text":"勞動基金,對,勞退,1300億左右嘛,對不對,不過這些都是未實現的,是我懂,那平均每位的勞工帳面的虧損就是達到一萬大概一百零三元,不太能夠這樣算,它是未實現的,你先讓我講完嘛,我當然知道是未實現的嘛,這就是短期的部分嘛,但是我再論述一個道理,"},{"start":7408.726,"end":7428.198,"text":"那另外上次三月數據出爐的時候其實我也有問過有關於投資美金的這個計價部位匯損的問題喔那那個時候是30塊左右匯率那現在掉了大概又變成29塊喔所以等於又有4%出現喔所以我就想問說喔雖然它是未實現的那"},{"start":7428.818,"end":7440.614,"text":"你們在這個部分的管理和風險機制怎麼樣可以避免這樣子的虧損或者是這樣子的狀況會侵蝕到勞工對於這個基金的信心你們有什麼相關的這個機制"},{"start":7442.505,"end":7462.079,"text":"報告委員,美元其實它有一個長期的軍事,那我們透過多元的一個策略,因為我們的資產有不同的配置,我們包括國內的股票、國外的債券都有。那你們現在有評估現在目前的匯率一直這樣子衝擊下去,今年大約會衝擊多少嗎?"},{"start":7467.452,"end":7482.813,"text":"委員報告委員確實匯率會影響我們帳面短期上的收益但是跟委員報告這個因為我們長期這個美元的匯價其實是相對穩定的我們也做過研究就是說"},{"start":7483.334,"end":7499.236,"text":"你現在是相對穩定,可是其實這一年以來已經掉了很多啊所以短期的衝擊的確是嘛,短期的確有衝擊嘛那你們有沒有去做一個相關的評估風險的避免有,一定會有的"},{"start":7501.138,"end":7521.965,"text":"那剛剛問的是短期的部分因為目前今年到4月份應該已經顯示高達的大概損失大概是1990億左右那整體收益率大概是負2.9%那這樣子波動劇烈那剛剛也有提到報告內容有提到說現在的勞工保險基金累存的餘額截至113年12月是1兆919億"},{"start":7526.866,"end":7532.299,"text":"那想要請問到目前4月底的時候這個累存餘額有多少有沒有跌破1兆沒有1兆994億"},{"start":7536.69,"end":7552.255,"text":"依照994議事到目前為止嘛到4月底好那那麼就是說部長依照這個目前4月份的勞保基金的會計報表數據這個兌換的這個短處大概就是272億5000萬左右那我們現在擔心的就是說這個股匯雙殺會不會也反映在這個基金的數據上面"},{"start":7560.658,"end":7570.43,"text":"那現在的保底機制也就是保證收益的這個機制啊在極端市場波動的時候有沒有足夠可以保障我們勞工實質的這個權益退休的權益"},{"start":7574.861,"end":7599.07,"text":"短期的波動是會受影響但是如果我們因為我們都是中長期的投資事實上如果長期來看不管是5年的平均或者10年的平均我們不管是勞保或者整個勞動基金報酬率會超過6%以上最近這幾年是都不錯可是你也知道這股市不可能是這樣子一直這樣下去那你們近期雖然短期有這個虧損但你們有沒有"},{"start":7599.77,"end":7617.329,"text":"去預設假設你長期或是這一年這兩年都不好的情況之下那你們會這個部分會不會去做什麼機制的調整報告委員舉例來講就是說你們會不會因為這樣子的長期的收益會你們會考慮去調低所謂的保證收益的利率"},{"start":7618.817,"end":7637.234,"text":"不會應該保證收益率不會好謝謝我就是想要問這個答案因為我們擔心我們擔心因為長期虧損的話發生了這樣的事情大家都會擔心不會這個部分不會謝謝所以你有這樣的信心的宣示我覺得很好但是在這個舊勞保基金的部分其實"},{"start":7638.482,"end":7648.705,"text":"老保於2017年首次出現,短處大概275.38億那之後每一年的短差大概是252億然後再228億、486億、288億然後2022年的時候是386億到2023年的時候擴大到446億到2024年又擴大到655億創立歷年的新高"},{"start":7662.208,"end":7686.189,"text":"所以我就說了剛剛講下來這個邏輯是這樣那為什麼現在還沒有破產其中一大原因當然就是政府的撥補對不對然後剛剛也有提到的因為最近另外一個原因是就是這個基金的部分其實是有賺錢績效還不錯這個部分我本席也給予肯定那另外一個大原因就是剛剛說的這個部分那你們2019年到2023年的平均報酬大概是7.51%"},{"start":7687.89,"end":7702.548,"text":"那其實我們都很樂見啦就是剛剛講的概念就是我們當然都很樂見我們的基金投資都有賺錢然後或者是這個收益率都很不錯可是我覺得這個終究是有一個上限啦你不可能天天都在賺錢嘛對不對你不可能每一年長期都在賺錢嘛"},{"start":7704.35,"end":7725.563,"text":"所以也很可以顯而易見的說在長期上來看要蓋過這個基金的缺口要靠這個投資是不太可能的不太可能而且尤其是今年這個國際局勢的動盪金融市場的動盪也很可能今年會是收益率近年來的第一次是負的所以"},{"start":7727.131,"end":7741.77,"text":"所以簡單來講目前為止您剛剛部長有提到我們目前為止這個基金之所以還沒有破產你也說這個基金有賺錢這件事情延後了可是其實我們可以看到勞保的精算負債"},{"start":7743.251,"end":7756.819,"text":"這個數值基本上是反映了我們勞工保險制度未來需要支付的總額嘛對不對那目前為止我們的勞保精算的負債是用前所未見每一年超過一兆元的速度迅速的增長啊"},{"start":7758.12,"end":7777.717,"text":"迅速的增長那這三年間金額已經從11兆500億左右攀升到14兆1000億足足增加了3兆那按照這個膨脹的速度其實這個精算的負債會在5到10年內會超過我們全國國內的生產毛額所以這麼大的缺口其實現在也是為什麼大家這麼緊張"},{"start":7778.798,"end":7805.332,"text":"所以不是說單單靠就是說我每一年找個錢或想辦法去撥補就可以讓大家安心的所以這就是我們今天整個邏輯順下來要講的政府負最終的支付責任這件事情是我想要問的因為我們當然很多委員也都已經有提修法我還是想問我們部長的態度究竟是什麼因為剛剛前面的邏輯講了這麼多部長你到底知不知恥有入法沒入法"},{"start":7806.516,"end":7830.11,"text":"目前政府的政策的態度就是政府是負最終責任的這是態度但是你沒有入法的話這個沒有辦法讓百姓安心我是希望說這個部分部長是不是可以清楚一點表態當然還有很多相關的配套必須做可是我覺得第一步要讓百姓安心讓民眾安心讓勞工安心這件事情是不是我們身為勞動部長應該要來給大家一個承諾和具體的方向"},{"start":7830.85,"end":7850.709,"text":"我們的政策就是這樣子那再來是說現在其實當然有我們看到很多委員的提案對於這些提案我想我們都是尊重那就整體的行政團隊來說我們認為這個部分是我們是持開放的態度那也覺得有討論和研議的空間那請問你們要接下來具體要怎麼做"},{"start":7852.102,"end":7871.428,"text":"所謂開放跟演繹的空間因為我們還是很希望部長可以表態說我們其實是支持的但是你可能要有一些配套必須去去釐清我當然支持政府負最終責任的事情這個事情現在還在做我當然支持政府負最終責任這件事情入法"},{"start":7872.378,"end":7899.897,"text":"對不對你支持這個概念就算不入法我也支持對那所以代表您支持入法嗎很好我覺得副部長願意這樣講的話我想因為你剛剛其實這樣聽起來大概有說有入法沒入法我們都是這樣做所以我當然是支持政府要負最終責任這個概念好我希望可以給勞工一個安心我們也希望讓勞工可以安心那再來我就要再問另外一題了剛剛這個答案OK我覺得你算是公開表態支持入法這件事我是支持政府負擔責任這件事"},{"start":7901.398,"end":7922.189,"text":"支持政府付起財務的最終責任這件事情因為我剛剛邏輯已經講很清楚了那這一題先到這裡那我另外要跟你講一個是無薪假的來襲那要怎麼保障我們這個勞工子女的權益那目前為止共155家企業2830億人實施減班休息也就是所謂的無薪假"},{"start":7923.169,"end":7935.428,"text":"那其中因為美國關稅政策而實施無薪假的企業大概是20家然後827人其實較前一期統計大概是倍增這基本上是倍增所以反映現在開始對於就業市場的衝擊開始擴大"},{"start":7939.093,"end":7959.926,"text":"那為了減輕這種非自願離職失業勞工子女的就學負擔勞動部本來有一個東西叫做失業勞工子女就學補助嘛那這部分是本來就已經有的那他是針對非自願離職失業勞工子女就讀這個高中職級大專校大專院校的人提供就學補助這件事"},{"start":7960.606,"end":7972.503,"text":"那補助金額是從四千到兩萬元不等但因為這次的衝擊其實這個東西它並沒有針對所謂被迫放無薪假的這種勞工的子女有就學補助"},{"start":7973.715,"end":7993.567,"text":"所以接下來因為這一波的關稅衝擊我覺得可能越來越大那應該是不是應該要提早引引因為下一個學期即將是在9月開學那本席是擔心放無薪假的勞工家庭他們子女的就學會不會也因此受到影響好那所以請問部長這部分可不可以請"},{"start":7994.948,"end":8011.975,"text":"貴婦回去研議這部分是不是可以去擴大因為基本上就是同一個計畫但是擴大到所謂的無薪假的家庭這部分的適用範圍可不可以譬如說將被迫放無薪假的兩個月以上的勞工或是他的其子女可不可以放入這個補助的範圍內"},{"start":8015.961,"end":8034.254,"text":"我還是想要說明其實就台灣的制度來說我們其實是減班休息因為有時候無薪假講久了真的會有一些勞工以為他可以真的無薪有的時候有些勞工在聽到無薪假聽久他真的以為會無薪這反而會影響他的他對自己權益的認知第二點"},{"start":8038.217,"end":8053.694,"text":"其實現在針對放減班休息的勞工我們當然現在是有公安令措施跟充電債出發可以去可以去補貼他在薪資上面收入的差距跟損失我想透過這個方式那剛剛委員在講的是這個"},{"start":8054.835,"end":8072.082,"text":"子女的這個就學的這個部分的補貼我想這是不同的政策不過我們大家可以綜合做一些考慮可是我想但是對於他經濟性支持的做法對經濟性支持的做法目前主要我們還是設計是透過包括這個顧安定措施部長希望您可不可以回去"},{"start":8072.822,"end":8095.064,"text":"就是去結束演繹這個部分就是他子女的部分剛剛你有講過充電再出發等等的其實之前我有提到因為你現在看到他已經翻倍了嘛他其實如果一直不斷的這樣下去其實會充電更快我們有密切的在監測員關注他的這個目前的狀況我之前有提到包含什麼安心即時上工啊等等的齁但是我今天講的就是欸其實你們既然原本有這個計畫"},{"start":8095.905,"end":8113.953,"text":"你有沒有試著去演繹擴大它的範圍到現在所謂的這個減班休息或者是你說無薪假因為被迫放無薪假的這樣子的家庭的子女的補助就學的補助的方案我想要請部長這邊是不是可以去盤點然後去了解一下這樣子會不會對他們受到衝擊"},{"start":8114.853,"end":8128.982,"text":"我想我們可以來綜合的研議怎麼樣來幫助這個減班休息的勞工可以有更多的協助我們綜合來研可能也不是只是這個部分因為這確實是不同的情況那請問大概要多久一個月可以嗎因為我看他這樣翻倍的速度很快喔"},{"start":8129.96,"end":8153.189,"text":"他衝擊來的會很快喔你們是不是可以盡速我們會 我們在我們在一個月好不好一個月我們一個月的時間怎麼樣可以讓減班休息的勞工可以有更多各種方面的支持沒錯請各種方面的支持然後還有包含這個所謂包括權益上面包括權益上面的協助好 謝謝那一個月內給本席辦公室一個這個研議的方向和報告謝謝"},{"start":8156.909,"end":8162.612,"text":"好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長那來 接續請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝 主席我們請部長要請部長"},{"start":8186.869,"end":8201.856,"text":"我接續我們這個廖委員講的就是因應這個關稅的問題那減班休息確實這個問題陸陸續續呈現那我記得在四月份的時候那時候卓院長還有"},{"start":8203.898,"end":8217.273,"text":"這個我們經濟部相關當時部長也有特別提到一些因應措施那我看到就是說在四月份的時候減班休息的人數好像也沒有就是還沒有呈現出來因為當時還有一些急單"},{"start":8219.535,"end":8229.441,"text":"當時對於這個美國的這個如果是對外出口的話這些廠家可能還有一些急單要做那到5月份的時候陸陸續續有這樣的一個減班休息的問題出現了那剛剛這個廖委員也有特別提到那我想再一次的問一下就是我們部長針對這個因應關稅的這個議題你當時在4月份這個"},{"start":8244.29,"end":8272.304,"text":"卓院长开记者会的时候你有特别提到一些因应措施吗那现在问题确实是出现了那是不是也请劳发署这边我看到也是非常认真就是有到就是有去做一些访试那提出一些问题那我想请教我们劳动部这边针对这一部分你们除了就是有这个充电在出发的这个训练计划之外那是不是还有其他的这个因应方式"},{"start":8273.977,"end":8302.516,"text":"其實現在當然針對減半休息的部分幾個最主要的當然一個是充電車出發另外是規模安定措施那規模安定措施現在它的範圍是不是要來做產業上面的擴大我們有把機制給重新做了一個檢討跟設定那的確現在針對什麼時候這個包括它的範圍產業的範圍要擴大這部分我們會來跟經濟部來做研討那也就是說如果確實看到減半休息的狀況"},{"start":8304.017,"end":8320.271,"text":"接下來有繼續的擴大的話那我們會是時候就來把這個公安令措施該擴大的範圍就幫助的範圍趕快來把它這個範疇給擴大希望能夠來支持到更多的勞工我們希望說這個時程可能要再加快一點因為也許"},{"start":8322.313,"end":8335.358,"text":"在這個7月份如果確定關稅確定之後我覺得這個影響可能會更大而且那個是會非常急速的所以我們希望就是勞動部針對這部分可能還要再加速"},{"start":8339.031,"end":8367.696,"text":"跟還有另外也再跟委員補充就剛才在講到說其實我們也在做了一些檢查因為過去基本上是要這個企業自己來申請所以企業本身對這件事情的意願看起來就會變成是勞工能不能得到勞工部或者是我們勞發署協助的一個關鍵可是如果企業來申請這個他沒有來申請就影響勞工的權益所以我們現在也開放是讓勞工可以自己來申請甚至我們會主動的來聯絡勞工讓他知道你有這個權利"},{"start":8369.476,"end":8385.607,"text":"你們怎麼主動聯絡因為現在我們其實有修訂了這些相關的這個協議書的要點那勞工朋友他會提供給他的聯絡資訊其實給地方政府所以我們也會拿到這個勞工聯絡資訊以後來主動聯繫說其實你可以來申請那如果來申請的話來參與我們這個分署內的相關的訓練的計畫的話可以拿到這個訓練的津貼可以對於你的這個收入上面的減損會有一些幫助"},{"start":8398.655,"end":8421.668,"text":"那我們希望說這個可能時程可能再加快因為到7月我覺得那個時程應該是到7月可能這個減班休息的加速可能會越來越多我們密切的在監測中那剛剛也有特別針對這個勞動基金的這個部分我想請教就是說大家都非常的關心然後因為這個關心到"},{"start":8423.57,"end":8441.707,"text":"一千多萬這個勞工的這個退休的這個基金那我想請教部長因為在去年的時候我們看到這個勞動基金是收益是有賺錢的那今年一到四月份是整個虧損那當然就是說投資有賺有賠不一定都是賺錢當然就是我們要讓這個虧損這個"},{"start":8447.532,"end":8452.955,"text":"能夠降低我想請教部長就是說很多人會覺得在四月份因為關稅的議題所以整個股會市這個很慘這個大家都可以理解那另外一個有人說這個我們的勞動基金我們的這些基金是不是用到去護盤我不知道說我們部長你針對這一部分是不是有什麼樣的說明"},{"start":8474.241,"end":8493.386,"text":"我想我還是要再說一次,我們絕對沒有拿這個勞動基金去護盤喔報告委員,我們基金運用局在做各項的投資運用都本於專業來做我們沒有義務去護盤,我們也沒有去護盤,我們大概就是根據市場的情況然後來進行佈局,我們沒有護盤的事情"},{"start":8498.647,"end":8527.344,"text":"好那當然就是這個是所有勞工關心的議題另外就是說剛剛部長也有特別提到就是說這個勞保勞保基金這個關心到每一個退休的勞工那大家也會擔心那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說勞動部政府是負最終的這個責任那我也認同就是說因為很多勞工會擔心那當然就是說政府因為有這麼多的這個勞工朋友"},{"start":8527.964,"end":8548.595,"text":"他就是加入這個勞保那如果說連勞保都倒了這個國家也差不多了啦所以當然政府要負最終的責任這一點我是認同入不入法這個我覺得這個可以討論那政府就是要負最終的責任因為這個影響到一千兩百多萬人所以這個真的是"},{"start":8549.235,"end":8572.555,"text":"非同小可全台灣才2300多萬人那這個就一半的人口都是加入我們的勞保所以真的我們當然剛剛部長也有特別提到我們就是政府就是負最終的責任就是很堅定的就是這樣說那另外一個議題我想請教就是說也是因為因應關稅的議題"},{"start":8574.517,"end":8591.339,"text":"那會受到影響勞力密集的這個產業可能會受到這個關稅的議題影響比較大那其中一個可能就是觀光業我想請教就是說之前有很多人在希望就是說這個觀光旅宿業能夠開放外籍移工"},{"start":8592.58,"end":8620.999,"text":"那當然就是說我們希望這個觀光旅宿業是要把自己的這個勞動環境做好之後那確實沒辦法有台灣的這個勞工投入我們才來考慮是不是要有這個外籍義工那當然我們看到一個資料我也希望就是說部長可能要關心一下就是勞動部在5月底有公布就是職類別薪資的一個調查"},{"start":8622.04,"end":8641.411,"text":"那住宿業房務員 就是我們這個旅宿業的這個房務員的這個薪資去年是平均30,941元那跟去年 跟前一年相比的話這個差不多調漲了 加薪了差不多695元"},{"start":8644.753,"end":8662.646,"text":"為什麼這個呃旅宿業或者是我們的這個住宿住宿呃旅宿這麼呃這麼多這個台灣的這個勞工不願意投入一方面可能整個工作環境也不是那麼好再來就是薪資其實也不高然後所以我們希望就是說"},{"start":8663.806,"end":8689.577,"text":"今天如果要開放這個外籍移工的話第一個應該也要去考慮到是不是這些旅宿業這樣的一個觀光業是不是有將這個勞動的環境已經有提升了那薪資是不是有提升到一般的水準了那我們再來考慮那真的就招不到我們本級的勞工之外再來考慮是不是要開放外籍根本說明確實在旅宿業"},{"start":8691.089,"end":8720.829,"text":"其實目前他這個低薪勞工的比例確實是比較高那這個點的確也是我們一直在評估呂樹葉的跨國勞動力的開放問題裡面一個很核心的在思考的一個問題所以的確我們也希望接下來如果這個關於我們跨國勞動力的整體的政策在檢討的過程裡面我們第一個都是希望他不要對本國勞工的就業機會產生影響甚至我們都希望"},{"start":8721.909,"end":8747.963,"text":"未來是否有可能可以讓這些跨國勞動力的政策對於本國勞工的勞動條件尤其是薪資可以帶來正面的幫助我們也在往這個角度做可能性的思考跟探尋所以就像剛剛委員說的我們不會這個一味的或者是好像就覺得如果只是有缺人我就開放我覺得倒不是這樣我們會整體思考包括這個"},{"start":8749.904,"end":8763.519,"text":"外國的勞工他的就業的環境包括本國勞工的這個相關勞動的權益我想這邊整體的思考那我們的這個政策的檢討也不是針對旅宿業也會是整體的這個產業我們都會來做"},{"start":8767.646,"end":8791.945,"text":"進一步的評估那當然接下來如果評估有相關的結論我們也會盡快的來跟社會各界來去做說明好因為我為什麼會提出這樣就是說你們自己在5月底有做這樣的一個職類別的薪資調查那昨天那個證交所也公布2024年上市公司員工薪資的資訊那這個平均薪資最低的前10家公司中"},{"start":8792.685,"end":8809.819,"text":"就是大部分都是觀光餐飲傳統產業所以觀光跟餐飲業也許就是我們說可能就是整個工作環境或者是薪資不是那麼好所以本國勞工不太願意投入所以我才會講說未來可能就是要"},{"start":8810.84,"end":8824.627,"text":"希望這些連上市公司如果自己這個薪資都沒辦法這個跟其他的產業來相比的話那當然台灣的勞工不願意投入這樣的一個市場"},{"start":8826.729,"end":8849.522,"text":"確實在觀光業旅宿業觀光包括或者是一些服務業這些服務業的他的產業的特性跟他的勞動條件的狀態其實我們的確看到他是有跟製造業有不同的地方這也是為什麼我們覺得這部分的這個跨國勞動力的開放的問題必須有更多層面的評估跟思考的原因"},{"start":8851.224,"end":8875.745,"text":"我是看到連上市公司也觀光或者餐飲這樣子薪資也是蠻低的所以我才會希望部長你們在考慮引進外籍移工的時候就是整體產業的工作環境是不是確實薪資已經有調到跟一般的水準了"},{"start":8876.405,"end":8903.813,"text":"那我們再來考慮那確實就找不到我們本級的勞工那來開跟我們說明我們還會但除了這個跨國勞工業政策以外其實我們也希望比方說在薪資的透明化或者是我們也在思考更大程度的資訊的揭露來對於我們這些可能相對低薪勞工的比例比較高的產業能夠有更大的薪資提升的效果所以目前我們也在思考這樣子的相關的做法"},{"start":8904.953,"end":8914.538,"text":"好謝謝我們希望就是說能夠讓勞工能夠有一個好的一個工作環境謝謝黃秀剛委員謝謝黃部長那有請蘇清玄委員好謝謝主席那請部長還有黃署長還有蘇局長"},{"start":8932.567,"end":8935.142,"text":"蘇委好部長好 部長辛苦了"},{"start":8938.303,"end":8964.677,"text":"我現在要肯定一下我們勞動力發展署我們上上上就是這幾天我們去看中區看還有高屏那個那個分署勞動力發展署分署欸 做得很好耶做得很好中區啊 隔壁啊對地方的產業需要的人不一樣的"},{"start":8966.668,"end":8990.694,"text":"產業類,譬如說高雄那些都貼純的,還是說機械的那中區的話都是精密機械啊等等啊那都有分,而且還有宿舍,那老師都非常投入我看結論一個就是那些老師的薪水可能要更加多一點啦我今天打不掉齁,啊第二,裡面的機器"},{"start":8992.839,"end":9001.819,"text":"有人捐的 有人去討的 有人去求的 有人去買的要寬烈經費 那個要與時俱進就是買新的"},{"start":9003.936,"end":9025.655,"text":"可以啦我很謝謝這段時間為華為委員會仿視我們中分署、高分署、逃分署仿視我們很多分署然後給我們相關的肯定我想這對我們同仁也有很多這個信心上面的提升對啦 就像是發生事情之後低迷我們也是要去鼓勵他們那真的是 欸 那是你們勞動部的亮點"},{"start":9027.219,"end":9042.224,"text":"真的是亮點,不然的話不知道什麼何無為在跟你們說所以我再一次跟他肯定黃署長加油第二個我要問的,蘇局長還有我們部長今年為什麼會虧損"},{"start":9048.099,"end":9071.847,"text":"市長 今年因為4月美國宣布關稅措施所以整個市場動盪的情形很劇烈以台股來看 到今年的4月底我們台股就跌了超過12%美國以跟我們關係最密切的費辦指數來看也超過15%事實上對我們造成非常大的影響"},{"start":9073.227,"end":9098.32,"text":"因為這個都是屬於平價的損失並沒有實現你們沒有賣掉啦我們會有操作實現利益然後我們這個是目前是帳上未實現的損失所以最主要是關稅川普喊出來之後他感冒結果我們都得肺炎"},{"start":9101.321,"end":9109.499,"text":"再來我們要住ICU他亂喊一通我們就死翹翹會不會再回來 應該可以吧"},{"start":9111.463,"end":9130.697,"text":"市場其實是一直在波動但是有往上有往下那我們覺得我們投資都是看長期基本面我們基金的運作都是以穩健的方式來進行那我要問部長兩個第一個是關稅如果真的調到10到15%"},{"start":9132.859,"end":9147.691,"text":"我們的產業包括精密機械都受不了喔他們是真的會受不了那個時候會有人失業喔第二個台幣如果升值現在已經30塊了嘛32變30如果到28越死捏連台積電工業也斷不了捏那這邊呢確實最近這個這個國際上面的經貿的情境的變數很多啦齁所以我說"},{"start":9162.443,"end":9181.657,"text":"跟跟文說明我們其實也會為各種可能的情境尤其是會為比較嚴峻的情境去預作準備那這也是為什麼我們其實行政院其實也有這個特別條例裡面其實有編列了大概150億那來給勞動部那來作為這個安定就業的支持的做法"},{"start":9181.997,"end":9207.087,"text":"那可是如果這150億如果到時候真的整體經貿的情境不好那有需要更多我想我們也還有救保或者是救安的基金可以一起綜合的來運用對那這部分都是我們要來來支持相關的勞工所以不管是剛剛講減班休息或可能假設會有出現失業的狀況那我們其實也擬定其實相關的計劃要來支持對"},{"start":9207.967,"end":9218.903,"text":"好 那再來我就問你這個勞保的匯率從30年前我們那個匯率都是6點多那後來健保 因為我這一段我都經歷醫院就"},{"start":9224.23,"end":9243.165,"text":"醫療 本來勞保那6點多%裡面還含醫療那後來醫療切出去之後他還是維持6點多%嘛那醫療的4% 4.5%這樣慢慢增加是健保署的那現在一直增加 增加到已經11%了嘛現在匯率是11%嘛 對不對11 11.5那11.5是不夠的嘛你們的理想是多少"},{"start":9255.794,"end":9281.046,"text":"跟委員報告依照最新的精算就是未來服務成本是17.19%多少17.1917.19是你的理想所以我們在醫學上叫期望值這樣公司還要受得了嗎確實是我們要考量到目前最高上限就是12%"},{"start":9283.825,"end":9302.663,"text":"所以你現在顯然不足所以每一年都用撥補 撥補 撥補是這樣嗎各位報告 其實我們勞保是社會保險他的財務本來就是財的是部分提成準備我們不會弄到平衡的費率主要是要照顧勞工"},{"start":9303.846,"end":9330.969,"text":"所以我們都是沒有達到平衡事實上你那個匯率勞工本身付的差不多20%而已嘛是是那其他都是僱主在付嘛僱主是付80%嘛70%然後10%是政府政府付就跟健保一樣嘛差不多嘛那所以你現在每一年都撥補當然對年輕的人他們會認為"},{"start":9333.39,"end":9344.799,"text":"世代不正義嘛你以前的老人家每年都不會死每年往到八十歲九十歲一百歲現在年輕人每年九十歲現在的小孩越來越少小孩越來越少的負擔就越來越大不然你怎麼死就這樣那要怎麼做這個跟委員說明這當然是長期以來其實在大家在討論勞保財務裡面"},{"start":9361.866,"end":9383.168,"text":"這個很重要的問題那不過的確現在當然外界過去其實也有過提議說是不是要提高費率或者是要減少給付但不管是提高費率或減少給付這對於即時勞工的權益的影響其實都蠻大的所以我們其實都是用很審慎的態度在看待這些事情"},{"start":9384.289,"end":9398.446,"text":"因為我在鄉下,看病人什麼都好,很多我們的老公的朋友退休後,娘的錢都幾千塊而已,一萬塊以下很少,這一萬塊以下實在是不夠生活費啦,"},{"start":9401.77,"end":9417.037,"text":"你老實說基本生活的1萬6萬嘛就平常很多要查到說一成有一成是少於1萬塊的那這些人將來你有沒有想把他們提高還是怎麼樣"},{"start":9423.193,"end":9445.761,"text":"跟我的說明這當然是就是像我們剛才說目前其實這個在開源節流的概念因為目前確實財務我們不會說財務沒有問題可是在要進行開源節流的時候其實大家都想那我要怎麼減少給付可是減少給付會影響勞工的權益所以這的確是一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":9446.761,"end":9473.212,"text":"所以這也是為什麼其實我們才會一直在想說有沒有可能有一些另外的財政的財源的來源才會有像波普這樣子的想法或者是說我們也希望我們在基金的投資的效益可以做到更好所以才會在這個想法下面不然的確這個議題我想不管各黨來說都是一個非常大的挑戰誰執政誰都要面對啦所以我今天講的重點第一個是錢嘛一些收入很少的你應該給他加一些"},{"start":9474.352,"end":9495.157,"text":"畢竟是你們要照顧第二是人年輕人越來越少小孩子越來越少這個馬上要面對的那對年輕人他們要繳更多的稅來撥補來幹嘛這個也要好好的配套那第三個就是你們投資的效率你的效率書記長你說你很年輕你怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9496.937,"end":9522.678,"text":"我也要勤奮,但是要了解就是要了解,因為創侯探期,這更重要短期是有一些虧損,但是其實我們經營局這幾年其實整體的效益是很穩健地在成長的新加坡淡馬市我有去查,我有認識的朋友在那邊他們每一年的低獲利的都有6%高獲利的有12%以上"},{"start":9523.699,"end":9531.63,"text":"所以這個是也可以參考一下 董事長你借的你就要好好想要怎麼判刑 好不好大家加油啦 好 謝謝謝謝蘇委員那我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":10215.438,"end":10223.084,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會我們中午不休息 把它趕完那要肚子餓的就先發便當啦來 我們請麥一貞委員質詢"},{"start":10242.305,"end":10245.348,"text":"謝謝主席有請勞動部部長辦人好"},{"start":10255.27,"end":10275.88,"text":"部長好部長上次總執行的時候我針對外籍實習生和僑生打工勞動權的執行你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管實習生就是歸教育部管但是事實上"},{"start":10276.98,"end":10296.55,"text":"部長你有沒有清楚說實習生跟僑生都不是跟你聊的是不是身份或是學籍是討論他們在勞動現場時的權益誰來保障這份監察院出來調查的報告部長你有沒有看過因為對不起我這邊看不太清楚你說這是哪一個時候的報告"},{"start":10307.291,"end":10315.343,"text":"2023年有知道有好你知道所以上面的案有明明白白的寫著就是"},{"start":10317.162,"end":10337.949,"text":"涉及外籍學生收教權以實習以攻讀勞動的安全有深入了解的必要這個來台產學專班的越南大學的越南籍的大學生在實習工作的烘焙廠的當中不幸遭到就是"},{"start":10339.169,"end":10355.783,"text":"一台車就意外壓榨最後就是讓他們來台求學的離鄉背井的外僑生這樣子就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查"},{"start":10360.026,"end":10378.716,"text":"認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎"},{"start":10388.518,"end":10409.894,"text":"我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起"},{"start":10410.635,"end":10426.049,"text":"加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長"},{"start":10427.247,"end":10442.714,"text":"我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部門我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管"},{"start":10454.299,"end":10470.564,"text":"實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的"},{"start":10471.929,"end":10479.332,"text":"外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教你管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題"},{"start":10493.459,"end":10498.203,"text":"網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵你講的是天兵你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道"},{"start":10522.481,"end":10544.289,"text":"第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的現在所有這些我問的都是不是說他的身份是他在工作的場合所以我們要認為說他的身份是你的你一直推給教育部我今天的是說不心離開這個學生他是在實習的合作的"},{"start":10550.211,"end":10555.876,"text":"的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外"},{"start":10569.608,"end":10578.453,"text":"今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍"},{"start":10597.505,"end":10599.747,"text":"難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎"},{"start":10613.653,"end":10631.641,"text":"我開始跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計不要說工作型的實習他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員"},{"start":10632.501,"end":10645.952,"text":"不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為"},{"start":10651.196,"end":10668.496,"text":"廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合"},{"start":10669.813,"end":10690.527,"text":"商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的"},{"start":10691.431,"end":10698.517,"text":"所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧"},{"start":10718.675,"end":10737.484,"text":"明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛你一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分"},{"start":10743.055,"end":10766.771,"text":"沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做"},{"start":10768.552,"end":10782.224,"text":"實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛"},{"start":10784.065,"end":10787.506,"text":"所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者攻讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所"},{"start":10809.711,"end":10816.353,"text":"職業的安全 還有主管單位 就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部 如何去合作 確保把人的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的 這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部 我從來沒有這樣說"},{"start":10830.698,"end":10848.778,"text":"我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情"},{"start":10849.676,"end":10863.628,"text":"所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉"},{"start":10866.01,"end":10879.408,"text":"他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對賴委員我看你這裡要釐清一個就是"},{"start":10884.274,"end":10909.187,"text":"這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣 兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業"},{"start":10910.248,"end":10936.187,"text":"服务业跟我们的工读的也是服务业所以变成各签约就是20个小时所以呢变成20个小时同样的公司同样的场域同样的工作是这样子的分不清就变成廉价劳工所以我们希望就是说我们教育部跟劳动部要如何做劳检要减少这样子的发生"},{"start":10936.587,"end":10956.856,"text":"如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就沒福了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以"},{"start":10957.616,"end":10960.139,"text":"在做勞檢的時候 讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生喬生 工讀生 讓他們有保障現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制而且其實之前已經有開過會了"},{"start":10978.891,"end":10988.767,"text":"那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協力協助這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了"},{"start":10994.255,"end":11021.988,"text":"但是來家就沒播宗 要私人啊沒人要插 叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴 跟我陳述還有最後一個問題 我要問一下說勞動部在3月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階"},{"start":11023.369,"end":11036.238,"text":"技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度"},{"start":11038.699,"end":11060.664,"text":"緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這六類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那"},{"start":11061.904,"end":11079.442,"text":"確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔"},{"start":11081.504,"end":11106.318,"text":"他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我不要做了委員3月的時候"},{"start":11108.979,"end":11135.153,"text":"委員三月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套"},{"start":11135.593,"end":11150.351,"text":"希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家的疑慮 主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告 預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部 但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業嘛所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他"},{"start":11151.412,"end":11168.436,"text":"還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我書面給我正式給我書面的一個完整的"},{"start":11174.657,"end":11178.582,"text":"就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是是踢來踢去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好"},{"start":11193.76,"end":11214.269,"text":"把人準備好,部長還沒準備好,這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好,讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛,對不對不能說已經公布,我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了,我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行,所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整,好嗎是,好,謝謝部長好,謝謝麥委員"},{"start":11222.411,"end":11240.642,"text":"謝謝 沒問題這個case有勞保的撫恤什麼都有吧對啊 有沒有啦有沒有收到 他們有收到死亡撫恤什麼都有吧因為"},{"start":11250.896,"end":11264.902,"text":"勞動補助就是傷障費還有家屬的請領的部分也沒有後續因為每年都要審查部長你派人去跟他溝通一下因為每個人找勞保都一樣"},{"start":11275.685,"end":11293.323,"text":"圓滿的解決啦,這樣這樣這樣好,賴會員,賴會員,賴會員不在鍾嘉斌,鍾嘉斌,鍾嘉斌委員不在林德虎,林德虎,林德虎改成蘇委員執勤王振旭委員執勤"},{"start":11302.222,"end":11305.752,"text":"好謝謝主席我們就麻煩虹部長"},{"start":11314.487,"end":11338.54,"text":"部長好謝謝今天提供這個專題報告的內容真的內容非常豐富這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難也許對主席來講對召委來講沒有困難的程度不過因為相對來講這個勞工尤其是對勞保這個財務穩健的改善的部分真的是面臨非常大的挑戰"},{"start":11339.58,"end":11359.985,"text":"那今天就三個主題來跟部長討論一個就是勞保財務改善機制另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性第三個就是還有勞退勞保勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論"},{"start":11362.026,"end":11375.394,"text":"那我們也了解勞保在整體的這個財務要做穩健的改善事實上考量的事情會非常非常的多所以一直以來Lewin部長對這樣的議題其實都會採用比較穩健的做法"},{"start":11379.196,"end":11403.612,"text":"那在上個會期預算會期裡面我也麻煩勞動部這邊針對勞保財務改善提出一些應應的對策希望能夠有更合理的方式讓整個勞工朋友會很有信心的知道政府其實對於勞工尤其在退休以後的這些財務的部分呢可以得到一個最大的心理的一個安定感"},{"start":11404.332,"end":11426.681,"text":"那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分針對於目前整個政府的方向"},{"start":11427.961,"end":11444.164,"text":"比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法"},{"start":11444.705,"end":11459.064,"text":"那針對於這個勞保財務的這些因應對策如果以剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話那可能就會有希望三個部分第一個就是就好像前任何部長所提到的"},{"start":11460.265,"end":11487.666,"text":"政府撥補也是改革的方案之一這個到目前洪部長也是也有同感那第二項就是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場那在去年我們也把這個法案也把65歲的年齡再往後延退那第三個就是要強化查核跟管理機制這就包括說這個整個勞保基金投資的績效如果能夠讓他可以更有效率或者是有效果"},{"start":11488.146,"end":11509.89,"text":"另外就是催收保費我們可以定期的去透過更好的方式來催收保費另外就是在給付的時候 退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分 除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外"},{"start":11510.49,"end":11531.83,"text":"那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法"},{"start":11534.252,"end":11554.283,"text":"謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度"},{"start":11556.164,"end":11574.154,"text":"但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他"},{"start":11575.835,"end":11595.591,"text":"其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子"},{"start":11595.691,"end":11622.862,"text":"好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個"},{"start":11624.242,"end":11652.961,"text":"整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要的顧慮還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議"},{"start":11653.841,"end":11672.5,"text":"其實我們從這過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就2016年當中又增加了這個1700"},{"start":11674.702,"end":11688.262,"text":"就變成43900可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年訂的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的"},{"start":11689.844,"end":11707.535,"text":"想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實這幾年來或者說20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最保級距的4萬24是有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話"},{"start":11715.64,"end":11742.682,"text":"有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個級距裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個級距更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是"},{"start":11743.422,"end":11752.673,"text":"基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的"},{"start":11754.485,"end":11777.663,"text":"那這些這個是從這個級距上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個"},{"start":11778.323,"end":11794.819,"text":"那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它"},{"start":11795.74,"end":11814.069,"text":"當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪今天是薪資補助也會有改善的機會"},{"start":11815.109,"end":11831.629,"text":"所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說"},{"start":11832.87,"end":11857.019,"text":"如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個相對"},{"start":11862.121,"end":11886.374,"text":"這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出"},{"start":11887.134,"end":11913.219,"text":"那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限"},{"start":11914.219,"end":11930.938,"text":"來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估"},{"start":11932.399,"end":11959.312,"text":"那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法"},{"start":11961.373,"end":11984.691,"text":"我要說非常謝謝王委員 其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析 包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性 那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的 比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估 我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供 這個影響評估的部分"},{"start":11985.251,"end":12014.491,"text":"第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保級距上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題"},{"start":12015.492,"end":12034.231,"text":"所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長出示來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃"},{"start":12036.613,"end":12062.622,"text":"部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢"},{"start":12063.502,"end":12086.136,"text":"退休以後還可以支配所以說我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面"},{"start":12087.677,"end":12111.556,"text":"在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能"},{"start":12112.536,"end":12139.982,"text":"這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得非常好而且他真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好那就麻煩部長好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝王委員我們醫生健保的複試付到18萬"},{"start":12143.772,"end":12154.597,"text":"最高現在18萬多像王振旭他應該是繳18萬的18萬,現在5.21就是9千多塊9千多塊喔那我們健保,勞保這邊才4萬5千8我們也能夠九十幾萬的財富我們社會可以拿一點錢嗎?你自己害人我絕對不公平,真的真的"},{"start":12171.826,"end":12183.317,"text":"好 接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢好 謝謝主席 是不是還是請我們洪部長"},{"start":12202.801,"end":12229.361,"text":"部長大家都很關心這個勞保的這個基金的問題喔至少我個人也很擔心但我想到說大家覺得說領的越來越多繳費的越來越少可是那我就認真的看了一下新一個世代投入職場然後現在有在繳保費的我都很好奇那一年他們出生的人口是多少"},{"start":12229.941,"end":12251.589,"text":"那我就假設是25歲好了因為大學畢業嘛22歲23歲那今年2025年我就看了一下2020年你知道那一年出生的小孩出生的小孩有幾個嗎大概十幾萬不告訴你你會嚇一跳我看了也嚇一跳2020年出生的小孩有305312個"},{"start":12257.881,"end":12264.664,"text":"你知道去年剩下13萬4856個我這個是統計 這絕對不是亂寫的人口統計2000年啦 抱歉我們不曉得怎麼講2000年啦 抱歉抱歉是2000年 我講錯了2000年是30萬5312個那個時候就在講說人口少子化危機"},{"start":12288.363,"end":12293.427,"text":"2000年 大家講說現在繳的少30萬人還叫繳的少嗎但如果再找一個數字相較於1982年那一年出生的小孩有40萬個我就找40萬的40萬掉到30萬 2000年其實在2000年已經就掉到30萬了2000年是因為農年再加上2000年"},{"start":12315.546,"end":12344.323,"text":"那為什麼講這個是從40萬人掉到30萬人花了18年的時間少掉了25%四分之一的人口數那個時候我們就說這個勞保的財務危機了勞保的財務危機可是你知道從2000年然後掉到再少四分之一就財務危機少三分之一是幾年多快的速度嗎"},{"start":12346.369,"end":12350.41,"text":"5年2005年出生數剩下20萬5854人2005年短短5年的時間又減10萬他不是10萬是3分之1再來對 跟 跟花多少的時間對30萬變成要變15萬這樣 兇兇落來"},{"start":12377.853,"end":12393.371,"text":"這個速度也是非常的快如果不要講一個特殊的年是2010年的話其實就是2021年20年他從30萬掉到剩15萬二分之一所以2000年為界"},{"start":12394.272,"end":12421.344,"text":"他到2020年掉了二分之一如果少了四分之一就是財務危機那那麼快的速度下墜到三分之一就少了三分之一然後再更快的速度二十年時間少了二分之一那我現在講這個勞保的財務危機大家都知道開源節流 開源怎麼開源啊費率 法定費率工具用完了 剩下幾%現在費率多少%"},{"start":12424.532,"end":12429.875,"text":"法定費率最高到多少法定費率沒有修法的話 緊繃啊天花板到了 沒有開圓的工具了那我們再打開投保薪資的天花板投保薪資天花板是要開到多高啊"},{"start":12450.305,"end":12460.131,"text":"你少掉了二分之一的人耶如果再跟四十萬的人口來講那個不是二分之一 四十萬變成十五萬耶這裡打多開 也開不了"},{"start":12466.226,"end":12477.078,"text":"大家都知道 這個不是結構不結構 入不敷出 已經沒有任何的手段可以再繼續開源了好 去年2024年 這個政府撥補1300億 投資收益的創新高1595億的投資收益"},{"start":12488.446,"end":12493.253,"text":"也是一樣入不敷出前年2023年政府撥補550億投資收益1100億那是死好呢那是死壞 你投資收益很壞的要安住"},{"start":12505.396,"end":12522.644,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 我們看你們的精算報告這次的精算報告也出來了去年的勞保收支還短差665億這個已經是連續8年這個逆差 大家都知道我剛才剩下人口數給你聽 你怕死啊"},{"start":12523.864,"end":12538.155,"text":"潛藏的負債不要講啊 這個從變成14兆就不要講收不抵資也不用再講了 惡化也不用再講政府如何加大力道 我想喔啊 一樣啦 已經撥不到1300億啦 你是要怎麼加大力道啦還可以多大啦然後 這個到底是怎麼 怎麼辦喔你把年紀想起來 頭皮會發麻捏頭皮真的會發麻欸"},{"start":12555.206,"end":12568.072,"text":"這個人口就是牽動這個退休這個勞保基金最重要的變數這個人口結構這麼大的變化大家都知道人口危機是國安危機可是就是在這裡那勞保的普通事故啊因濟保費在這個"},{"start":12576.601,"end":12584.226,"text":"投保人數就是現在還是40萬的人在繳費的現在繳費的應該都是一年生40萬的人在繳費的吧今年是40萬人那個世代的人在繳費的啦今年是30萬跟20萬的還沒到職場啦"},{"start":12599.52,"end":12606.325,"text":"那是更恐怖的啦一年才有40萬的離開的人現在在投保可是光是這樣子2021年投保人數從1074萬到去年已經下降到1048萬少了26萬了那勞保普通事故因紀的保險費是這個4881億但實際保險的給付已經高達5546.3億元"},{"start":12628.76,"end":12654.82,"text":"所以這樣的撥補是撥補我們是很輕盈的但是就不是辦法那這種這麼大的人口結構的問題之下這個我的助理叫我跟你們大家講雖然我也不曉得我認不認同但他們都選擇不婚不生快樂一生但是這樣下去他們覺得不婚不生的人也要貧窮一生了"},{"start":12657.915,"end":12660.537,"text":"然後呢 我要再問你一個很嚴肅的課題喔勞保分得這麼大 勞保可以賺嗎你說政府付不付 最終責任沒有重要啊全部所有的人口的一半 一千萬全部都是在這個 社會保險裡面"},{"start":12674.991,"end":12688.48,"text":"政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負"},{"start":12699.608,"end":12707.489,"text":"真的都不夠 吃得老的時候都仰賴勞保的月退再充當他的這個勉強度餘生的棺材本啦我說這個很務實的 很現實的喔不要說勞退喔 勞退沒多少錢啦都仰賴勞保主要的經濟 老年經濟來源仰賴勞保的比例有多高 你告訴我"},{"start":12735.486,"end":12747.176,"text":"各位報告我們對勞工的老年經濟保障還是希望他們跟世界...不要講你的希望我現在要問你現實面真正的現實面台灣有多少人他退休之後所有的收入所有的經濟的來源他生活都靠而已去報這個月退多少人你告訴我"},{"start":12761.363,"end":12775.49,"text":"不過勞保目前的家保人口是一千多萬嘛那但是在勞退那邊也有七百多萬啦所以是 我在問什麼 你在回答什麼我問東你答西 王店員你不知道喔數字上面我可能可以 我們要再去確認一下我告訴你大概全台灣沒有人可以講得出一個數字因為沒有人敢面對 沒有人敢調查 也"},{"start":12788.686,"end":12793.433,"text":"大家都烏著眼睛說不要去想 但是我跟你說喔就如我剛才一開始就講的現在的年輕人不要問我們上一代的現在要捏錢的啦 多少人仰賴這個勞保月退再當生活費的啦"},{"start":12805.009,"end":12806.13,"text":"因為他沒有能力去為自己的老年經濟做準備養小孩繳房貸他在養上一代"},{"start":12823.869,"end":12838.001,"text":"別說他問我們自己啦大家各位在座的各位有幾個人你繳了房貸養了小孩然後給了父母生活費以後你還有能力為你自己的老年經濟安全有餘裕做準備的這個小孩我說得很輕鬆"},{"start":12842.489,"end":12853.234,"text":"我坐著一眼望去 多少人都仰賴勞保的月退當生活開支的唯一財源這個問題很嚴重"},{"start":12858.908,"end":12883.942,"text":"我也不知道怎麼問,所以不能破綻的但是我現在要跟你講,你是政府,你再怎麼逃,再怎麼躲,躲不了撥補是好事,但撥補也解決不了,漲保費,漲保費也沒辦法手段工具都用清了,沒有可以再上漲的空間了"},{"start":12885.151,"end":12895.026,"text":"打開天花板,天花板進去繳收入也有限現在未來是怎樣?我再說一個問題,你不要去思考過不?不對,AI的時代來了AI的時代來了"},{"start":12901.343,"end":12920.717,"text":"三年五年整個社會整個世界都就長得不一樣AI的速度之快啊讓這個社會可能三年就多一輪啊多一輪啊所以那個對勞動市場最大的衝擊是什麼大家都覺得失業啊被替代啊然後來了"},{"start":12922.711,"end":12948.681,"text":"你就要勞保基金的改革說那我們不能開源 我們節流叫啊 大家啊 你要比較少的就已經很少了 要給他少不然就看我而已全世界都在把退休的年齡往後延可是我想AI時代來這是一個很殘忍 很殘酷的打擊來了因為可能會很多人力被替代掉而會有大量的過剩的勞動力"},{"start":12950.686,"end":12966.931,"text":"所以如果大家全世界來講說要領年金的年齡往後延那並不是基於並不是基於勞動力需求而已並不是基於勞動力需求的短缺恐怕真正的殘酷是基於"},{"start":12968.617,"end":12978.202,"text":"老年幾戶的這個基金不夠所以這叫大家都不能退休不能退休問題是沒頭腦啊AI時代來了勞動力大量的勞動力過剩人力被取代這樣要怎麼做你們有沒有想過AI時代對整個就業市場勞動力市場的衝擊除了失業以外還會有什麼影響保證你們有想過嗎"},{"start":12997.087,"end":13021.515,"text":"確實這個AI技術的滲透率越來越高其實現在其實在很多面向看起來都會對於整體的勞動環境會造成影響像是我想維恩其實也一直很關注這個問題不是啦我在講跟我們這個勞保基金有關的啦對於整個勞動力市場就業人口除了失業還有可能會產生什麼影響"},{"start":13023.567,"end":13037.037,"text":"失業保費繳的人就少了啊然後然後人類可能會更長壽更長壽以後活得越久領得越多活得越久領的人越多這個是這個社會保險會瓦解不是會瓦解是將近崩潰"},{"start":13046.823,"end":13065.492,"text":"不只是勞保還有健保 所幸喔 勞保不是唯一的那我再 不要忘了 我們現在移工我們的移工 我們現在83萬的移工都在繳保費 但是第14年以後不准他們領退休欸"},{"start":13067.418,"end":13092.228,"text":"嘿 所以我們的政策都卡在第14年耶我們是用這種這麼殘忍的手段耶可是這種手段會不會有一天在國際勞工的這個組織裡面這種公約裡面要求台灣不能再這樣子下去或是人家提告 到國際法庭去提告覺得我們這種管制手段都叫人搬移這樣如果要安坐"},{"start":13096.092,"end":13098.176,"text":"你做政府有太重嗎?這問題很嚴重的所以這種狀況裡面"},{"start":13104.67,"end":13108.331,"text":"社會保險這個問題你知道2023年OECD和G20的國家年金統計調查了42個國家除了冰島墨西哥美國和G20的印尼四國以外這個四國不要談了其餘各國"},{"start":13127.156,"end":13143.003,"text":"和我國的勞保性質相近的 就是確定幾戶制的這些國家的提存基金的比例都是100%以上印尼沒有啦 印尼是97%啦"},{"start":13144.784,"end":13162.733,"text":"各國當中最低的是冰島雖然也曾經破產過但他們年金制度的提存比例也有28但是不要講冰島這比較特殊但是在我國2021年的精算報告勞保的已提存的基金比例是幾%我國的6.19%人家都100%"},{"start":13173.871,"end":13193.766,"text":"好沒關係因為可能制度上有一點差異不一樣但是但是這個這個也是我們可以走的方向可是就人口結構惡化成這個樣子連確定確定幾副字能不能夠適應在未來的改革能不能這樣子都還是一個問號啊"},{"start":13196.847,"end":13205.349,"text":"確定第一波是已經負債這麼多了確定幾副你們有沒有評估過從13萬40萬變成30萬就已經這麼大的財務危機啊30萬變成13萬確定確定幾副字真的也提得出來嗎可以100%嗎你們有評估過嗎這是現在當然現在是這是制度上面的設計"},{"start":13225.526,"end":13243.178,"text":"不是啦政府的功能和角色就國安的危機當然就是未雨綢繆要先試算20年後的危機那我們才能知道怎麼因應而現在我告訴你不管開源或節流所有的手段工具都用竊了沒了沒了然後我就想政府你要想大家都覺得在這裡修法要修什麼啊"},{"start":13253.806,"end":13282.625,"text":"再降低給付再延長這個退休這一些都不是工具了我們過去想像的工具都已經不是工具了更何況AI時代來了所以部長這個是很嚴肅的而且是我相信對勞動部而言你們真的還必須要重新嚴肅的去思考的事過去以後我們確定提撥制變成確定給付制就好了"},{"start":13284.686,"end":13294.171,"text":"我們確定幾乎是愛環樂人口突然間零得越來越多五十萬的世代人要再活一年四十萬人的世代人要再活一年四十萬人的世代人要再活 要再捏零得越久 活得越多現在叫的是一年四十三萬的時侯要安寧"},{"start":13308.465,"end":13326.994,"text":"人家去叫你 我就確定幾副 副的出來嗎所以這個知識體大啦 我只能在這裡與眾欣賞的在跟大家講一個最殘酷現實 我今天要講一個重點不管開源或節流 所有的工具都用完了"},{"start":13328.446,"end":13337.816,"text":"幾乎都沒辦法我們可以想像的勞保的改革手段的工具沒了這是很嚴重的事情好 謝謝"},{"start":13347.762,"end":13352.184,"text":"好 好 我跟他說一句 你不要笑我說因為你不知道說多少勞工仰賴勞保的老年給付剛好你們自己有一個勞工生活及就業狀況調查113年度調查勞工退休後的生活費的來源目前沒有規劃的人28%有規劃的72%但有規劃的裡面仰賴勞保老年給付和勞工退休金的高達四成四所以44加28等於72%都算了"},{"start":13379.355,"end":13381.117,"text":"主席 麻煩請勞動基金運用局書局長"},{"start":13406.628,"end":13435.043,"text":"局長好我們查了一下貴局的這個新聞資料最近的一則是在6月2日發布的那麼引述的是美國政府4月2日的時候宣布開徵對等關稅且這個稅率超乎市場預期政策不確定性引發的這個市場擔憂經濟衰退風險提高那台股在這個4月7日的時候重挫逾2000點那跌幅"},{"start":13438.205,"end":13465.744,"text":"9.7%那创台股历史单日最大跌点的这个跌幅记录那恐慌情绪蔓延那目前呢这个你们运总用这个规模达这个7兆7170亿元截至4月底的这个评价后收益数为-2215亿元收益率为-2.98%那因此我想说请教一下苏局长"},{"start":13466.685,"end":13474.939,"text":"5月初應該發布的新聞為什麼沒有發布是什麼樣的原因麥克風要打開"},{"start":13480.742,"end":13507.017,"text":"我們6月原則上第一個工作天會公佈前一個月的收益數5月的部分我們目前還在統計中所以5月的數字會到大概5月中下旬才會完成因為我們的收益是包括國內外然後會整個統計所以5月的數字會是在7月的時候來公佈我們現在公佈的是截至4月底的數字"},{"start":13508.061,"end":13535.03,"text":"所以我們六月是公布前一個月份不是五月因為我們六月二號就第一個公布所以你們五月份大概要八月才會七月所以你們每個月都會公布但是看不到前面一個月的因為目前我們還在結算那個五月底的數字現在是六月嘛好沒關係我大概就弄清楚啦這個沒有什麼特別要刁難什麼問題"},{"start":13536.65,"end":13560.516,"text":"因為好像每次都是雙月你們確定每個月都會公佈就對了我們每個月都會公佈收益數好 那我另外其次我要想要請教就是說勞動基金國內各種投資標的這個金額在你們整體總運用規模的7,170億元那大概是多少的百分比"},{"start":13562.783,"end":13576.725,"text":"百分比是我們我們有7兆多有配置在國內的部位也有國外的有股票的也有債券還有另類資產那都有不同的一個比例所以大概就是說"},{"start":13578.107,"end":13598.001,"text":"除了國內股市之外你們其他還有國內的債券還有國外的債券國外的權益股票然後還有那個另類資產那我想了解就是說因為我們資料上看不到就是說國內跟國外的這個投資比例大概是多少"},{"start":13598.886,"end":13616.088,"text":"原則上不同的基金因為有不同的投資規範有的可以投資國外有的不能投資股票那目前為止如果我們以新智基金來看大概是原則上大概是一半一半但是新智會在國外的部位高一點"},{"start":13617.324,"end":13635.902,"text":"所以这样子你有比较具体的数据吗大概是五十七五十八左右就是整个来看的话是这样就是五十七五十八是国外国外对对因为国外的市场比较大那你们就是除了这个股票跟基金之外还有没有其他可以做投资的一些"},{"start":13638.384,"end":13659.357,"text":"我們的投資標的包括國內股票還有包括國外的像ETF基金另外還有國內的債券是一定有還有包括國外的債券然後還有我們也有另外的像投資國外的不動產投資信託的標的也有所以國外還有這個不動產的信託那我想其實剛剛這樣問是想"},{"start":13667.042,"end":13689.816,"text":"檢視一下你們這個想法你們的這個規劃看起來也大概也大概就是大家都可以想得到的那接下來我要問一個比較敏感的問題就是說你的支出長官是勞動部長以部長的職權部長可不可以影響你們的投資策略"},{"start":13691.034,"end":13716.159,"text":"報告委員我們內部訂有相關的規範我們有嚴謹的一個投資程序以國內股票為例那這個部長還有我本人都不會去指定我們同仁可以投資哪個個股我們以國內股票為例來說因為你若可以規範可以要求那事情就大掉了但是如果績效不彰的時候部長有沒有責任還是由蘇局長來負最終的責任"},{"start":13721.49,"end":13735.083,"text":"這個我們的投資就是大家都很努力啦好那這個我們希望每年多賺錢啦當然市場會有不好的時候但是我們也希望長期是獲利的所以誰要負責"},{"start":13738.61,"end":13765.607,"text":"我今天不用擔心我今天問的都只是在協助大家慢慢的釐清然後有一些新的想法這不是要刁難誰啦這樣投資的部分大概都是在我們局裡來處理那部長目前為止都沒有對我們的投資有特別的要求或是那個對好那我只是想問說績效部長的時候部長有沒有責任而已"},{"start":13766.587,"end":13790.292,"text":"應該是基金運用局你要扛全責就對了好很好我想我們身為未還委員會的成員我很高興在上一屆曾經為你們基金運用局的同仁爭取專業佳績的調升讓你們從表1一下直接提高到表17謝謝委員"},{"start":13791.792,"end":13812.924,"text":"那我也曾經要求說應該將這個每年的盈餘直接分配到勞工朋友還有這個退休勞工朋友的這個退休金賬戶內我想這些訴求呢今天都實現了我想除了感謝蘇局長之外呢也跟這個前任的這個蔡豐欣局長那也跟他表達這個感謝"},{"start":13814.825,"end":13840.418,"text":"事實上這些關注所隱含的信念跟價值其實它背後就是公平與正義這個勞動基金講求的是穩健所以不能說為了更高的預期效益然後就讓勞工的錢暴露在過高的風險之下所以也不能容許任何人從中獲取某取利益然後犧牲到勞工的權益"},{"start":13841.238,"end":13862.568,"text":"因此在這個國際的經濟情勢的變動是我們台灣無法改變的那這裡面呢股市的這個聯動是最直接顯著的那今年三四月的這個台灣股市的表現創下很多的歷史記錄我猜這是你們五月份沒有發布新聞的沒有就是那個進度的問題但是如果說"},{"start":13867.062,"end":13874.511,"text":"局長是我們這個基金的掌舵者那請問局長要如何降低受到國際不可控的這個風險"},{"start":13876.551,"end":13896.953,"text":"報告委員市場變化確實越來越劇烈但是我們基金是一個希望有一個長期穩健收益所以我剛剛提到就是說我們在配置的部分我們一定是多元分散我想多元分散是一個很重要的一個想法一個思考那是不是"},{"start":13897.894,"end":13915.145,"text":"我在這邊有一些建議那局長可以聽聽看就是說我們是不是也就是說來增加國內的投資比例也是一種選項例如本土化的這個新創產業或者是縣市政府鼓勵推動的這個投資獎勵產業"},{"start":13918.627,"end":13933.257,"text":"這些就說如同當年我們的這個台積電的這個公司一樣因為你們有沒有想過就說在當年那個時候官員的魄力與責任在那個法治還不是很健全的時代"},{"start":13934.478,"end":13947.31,"text":"我們有這個能力產生護國神山那你們現在手上掌控的資源比當時還要多但是呢只是說能做一些一般民眾也可以做的這個買賣"},{"start":13950.553,"end":13975.732,"text":"也可以就是說一般民眾也可以去做的這個買股票這樣的事情我相信喔股市是一種它是一種零和的結果啦那長期下來一方所得呢就等於是他方的這個所失畢竟就是說勞工去投資買賣股票跟你們相比賺錢的機會一定是比較少的我不知道署長有沒有認同我剛剛的一些觀點"},{"start":13977.347,"end":13993.496,"text":"謝謝委員指教那對於我們這個資產的配置還有投資的標的我們因為這個勞動基金有關我們勞工的退休生活所以我們非常的謹慎所以我今天拋出這樣的一個想法你們可以"},{"start":13994.276,"end":14010.7,"text":"未來研議看看因為從公平正義的角度你們倒不如去投資有潛力的新創事業或者投資一些紮根在台灣的產業特別是能夠幫助到地方就業人數增加的產業例如比較偏鄉地區的產業以台東縣為例養生運動 休閒觀光企業還有農漁業"},{"start":14015.501,"end":14035.311,"text":"的這個生產跟加工醫療照護綠色能源生技科技還有很多產業是屬於這種投資獎勵的產業可是地方政府能做的很有限特別是一項經中央或台東縣政府專案核准設立資本縣內的產業只要我有獲利的機會是不是就可以被投資"},{"start":14037.277,"end":14052.965,"text":"我們大概我們在投資的標的目前大概是以有流動性上市櫃股票為主那最主要是我們的我們必須要準備相關的流動性那另外我們相關的投資流程大概也都會有一定的程序"},{"start":14054.305,"end":14080.463,"text":"這個我理解但是我剛剛提的也不是完全不可能只是過去從來都沒有被思考過沒有被討論過所以我今天拋出這樣的議題我希望你們也可以朝這個方向可以好好的去研究去演繹因為生產AI晶片的這個輝達公司一直他有宣布就是說要在北市科成立這個亞洲亞洲營運中心之後立刻帶動了這個當地鄰近的這個房價"},{"start":14084.325,"end":14104.417,"text":"那台積電在南科設廠呢台南地區的房價跟就業人口也是整個被帶動起來那你們這個勞動基金或許可以成為下一個這個護國神山堅強的後盾好所以我想這個更多元的這個前驅的思維我們未來投資不要這麼狹隘那這個"},{"start":14107.899,"end":14131.8,"text":"所以拜託可以好好研議因為護國神三五不是只有晶片而已這個糧食安全也是一個很重要的項目所以這個部分我想這樣的投入讓更多人加入勞保同時產生開源節流的效益同時這也是解決你們勞保年金"},{"start":14132.481,"end":14145.323,"text":"也是解決這個勞保年金的一種方式啦好那謝謝我想這個後面後續我們可能辦公室在約時間大家好好討論是好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝蘇署長那接續請李坤成委員質詢謝謝主席我們請洪部長"},{"start":14167.859,"end":14190.244,"text":"來 部長好今天雖然談的是勞工退休金制度的改革不過總是要有人有勞工未來有人繳這個保費勞保才不會倒所以我想還是問一下有關掃紙化跟勞動部有相關一些問題因為我注意到在今年4月的時候部長有接受專訪你也提到說"},{"start":14191.204,"end":14212.611,"text":"你從立委到這個擔任部長那一直都積極努力要如何讓休假還有育嬰停留可以更彈性讓勞工可以兼顧職涯的發展那在去年這個勞動部也是有這個規劃這個以日為單位做一個請假的一個方式來做一個進行示範可是效果不是很好那我請教一下部長"},{"start":14214.432,"end":14222.736,"text":"這個事辦 去年事辦那接下來今年之後有關於這個育嬰停留以日來請休這個方向有在進行嗎"},{"start":14223.956,"end":14243.258,"text":"跟委員說明因為委員其實也一直很關心那我們確實現在針對運營流停的彈性化那正在做下一個階段的規劃還有包括配套的設計那目前在這個程序當中那現在也在跟行政院在爭取相關的配套資源"},{"start":14244.239,"end":14272.846,"text":"對那大概方向是怎麼樣就是說以日以日來作為這一個請那個請休的這個方向是確定的嗎我們現在是朝向讓暈暈流停也包括這個家庭照顧假能夠更具彈性包括能用更短的時間能夠請休的方向在演繹因為這也是現在其實蠻多新手的爸媽來跟我們表達他們其實真的有這個部分的需要就是說希望這個在暈暈停留的部分"},{"start":14273.186,"end":14296.375,"text":"我們可以用日來做請休然後在家庭照顧假的方面現在是可以用這個用小時來做來做這個請假嗎我們也是往這個方向在演繹所以目前還沒有就是家庭照顧假就是用這個小時來做這個請假現在是日現在家庭照顧假有7天對然後7天嘛那一天算8小時嘛那說7 8 5656個小時那未來"},{"start":14300.436,"end":14311.112,"text":"未來在修法的話因為這其實也不用修法有關這一個家庭照顧假這一個這個需要修法嗎如果說是從日改成小時來做勤領的話這需要修法嗎"},{"start":14311.772,"end":14338.657,"text":"我目前在研議如果要這個方向的話基本上他應該是不用修法的不用修法那不用修法如果大家認為說這樣子更方便的話那何不就朝這個方向來做進行對所以我剛才跟委員說明我們的確現在是不管是家庭照顧假或者是暈流停的彈性現在是綜合的來思考那都是希望更彈性然後更短的時間來請修的這個方向但是現在的確是在這個"},{"start":14340.037,"end":14358.922,"text":"配套規劃的階段因為我們也希望能夠盡量去緩解可能包括企業他在人力調度上面的挑戰要怎麼幫他去克服或者是減少人力調度的挑戰的部分這個也同時我們一併來思考所以這些相關的資源我們目前配套所需要的資源我們也在跟行政院爭取中"},{"start":14359.582,"end":14380.303,"text":"在去年事辦的時候有人提到就是說這一個手續上比較繁複像勞保局填報資料然後這個流程很繁複然後希望說在城市上面如果做個這個設計可以讓這個請假更方便你們有朝這個方向來做處理嗎因為這只是一個技術上面的"},{"start":14380.803,"end":14404.782,"text":"不是一個政策上面的一個根文說明因為確實間院留庭他是來自這個就保險裡面的給付所以他會有一些是在這個相關給付裡面他要去給付的時候的一些規範不過我們也老保局其實這段時間也很積極的在針對這些相關操作的技術流程有沒有可能可以更簡便"},{"start":14405.603,"end":14425.985,"text":"或者是可以減少更多的人力我想這也是我們在思考的配套的其中一個重要的部分因為從事辦到現在也蠻久的時間了那這是其中大家所提出來一個需要你們改善我是想說那接下來不會有事辦計畫了接下來就是如果說真的要去做的話那就是一個政策出來那我們就去做了"},{"start":14426.505,"end":14446.393,"text":"我希望是直接就是進入到下一個階段那這個下一個階段就是我們剛剛在講的這些方向但是我還是要跟文說明過去之所以事辦也包括事辦的成效當然也要接受大家的一些指教其實很大的原因就是你必須把方方面面的配套給想清楚"},{"start":14447.213,"end":14474.423,"text":"那你把它配套給想清楚這個政策在開始進行以後它的效果能夠幫助到的人跟普及率才有辦法能夠更高所以我們自己在思考跟規劃這個政策的時候我們覺得配套能不能夠到位其實是關鍵所以為什麼我們會多花一些時間比較細膩的來做這些相關的規劃的原因所以這樣子你們也花了半年時間來做示範"},{"start":14476.765,"end":14504.387,"text":"那我是希望說像這個半年這個半年當然現在是先停下來的這個半年我們這個半年研議可是其實比較多的時間確實是在配套所需要的機制包括配套所需要的資源我們現在也在爭取中那所以說那可不可以歸納說就是勞動部這個方向是說我們育嬰停留就是說希望說能夠採日來做勤修那有關這一個家庭照顧下的話我們希望說能夠用小池來做清理的這個方向來做進行我們朝向這個方向"},{"start":14504.887,"end":14525.537,"text":"那大概哪個時候會提出來相關的配套我真的是希望盡快,我真的希望盡快但是現在確實是在跟行政爭取這些配套的資源我是希望下一個會期能夠提出來啦我希望可以更快好,那更好啊好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝李委員,謝謝部長那接下來我們請楊耀委員質詢"},{"start":14537.27,"end":14538.875,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請一下洪部長"},{"start":14549.052,"end":14567.079,"text":"部長我們有關勞工退休金制度的改革大概講了非常非常多年其實大概就是一直在原地踏步我今天從幾個面向跟部長做一些探討第一個就是"},{"start":14569.827,"end":14597.765,"text":"我們法定的勞保費率將在2027年達到法定上限也就是說勞保年金它自2002009年上路依勞保條例的規定實施第三年期大概每年調高0.5個百分點調到10%以後改成兩年調0.5個百分點一直到它的上限是13"},{"start":14601.824,"end":14623.178,"text":"那今年已經到達了12.5%那也就是說下一次所以我一開始才說2027年就會到達法定上限我先請問一下部長會不會提出修法版本確保勞保的永續經營"},{"start":14625.663,"end":14646.611,"text":"那個委員確實現在費率每兩年提高0.5%因為剛剛委員是把舊保那一拍算進去那如果不算的話其實是每兩年會到12%所以目前確實在116年會達到上限對不對那你們你們對於保險費率的提高有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":14648.133,"end":14661.837,"text":"我們確實針對費率的提高這個確實也或者是增加這個保費的負擔的問題其實的確現在各界還有不同的一些意見也尤其也涉及到老公的一些權益那我們我們確實還在神聖的思考好那就是保險費率的部分呢還在思考對"},{"start":14673.376,"end":14695.891,"text":"那我用你們的精算報告來跟勞保局的2024年的勞保精算報告來幾個數字提供給部長就是說假如說要攤提過去未提存負債的平衡費率大概費率要高達31%假如不攤提也要17%"},{"start":14703.576,"end":14726.989,"text":"也就是說照你們的精算報告你們大概每幾年就會做一次勞保精算報告嗎這幾年呢也花了一千三百萬左右在做精算報告那我今天沒有那麼多時間可以跟你探討精算報告可是針對精算報告提出來的"},{"start":14727.99,"end":14749.12,"text":"就是現行的費率假如不改勞保的洞就會越來越大那我剛才也說了2027年以至後年就會達到法定上限那現在勞動部的態度不明我希望勞動部能夠盡快把政策的方向"},{"start":14750.861,"end":14774.299,"text":"確定因為很多東西我覺得我們不應該一直留在停留在委員會討論或者是說社會共識我們部長溝通的觀念不管是多繳少領延後退沒有一項是可以凝聚到社會共識的"},{"start":14777.367,"end":14805.24,"text":"這個就是必須要靠執政者的魄力來面對你說社會共識這幾項不可能會有因為他一定會有人出來反對費率提高的部分勞動部還沒有定案請教一下"},{"start":14806.772,"end":14833.294,"text":"就是這幾年我先講就是勞工的退休生活特別是以戰後嬰兒潮這一輩的人的觀念他們在多數我不是說全部多數在職業生涯裡面他是沒有自己儲蓄投資的觀念的所以他們信任國家"},{"start":14834.434,"end":14845.103,"text":"他們覺得國家會給他特別是勞保年金推出以後他們信任國家會給他們一個在物質生活上的最低保障"},{"start":14846.812,"end":14873.345,"text":"所以為什麼我一直對勞保年金的問題非常的重視其實是因為我身邊真的有很多澎湖當然在地的勞工不多可是旅外多為什麼因為澎湖早期就生活困苦也沒就業機會外出沒有主產大概都是一輩子當勞工我很不希望看到這樣類似的人"},{"start":14876.899,"end":14896.185,"text":"工作為社會國家奉獻了一輩子結果他的晚年連最低的生活保障都沒有那假如說費率的部分你還沒有決定那延後退其實現在已經高齡化是全球已開發國家都會面臨的問題"},{"start":14897.813,"end":14913.427,"text":"高齡化伴隨的就是身體狀況其實也都保持的還可以所以有很多國家的年金會從延後退休年齡開始譬如說德國跟美國大概都已經調整到67歲連中國啊"},{"start":14918.291,"end":14940.514,"text":"今年也要延後退休年齡新加坡、英國、日本也都在年齡我想要請教一下部長有沒有可能我們現在當然可以透過勞資雙方協議這個是議定的這個不是法定的我現在講的是有沒有可能"},{"start":14943.736,"end":14965.568,"text":"勞動部的政策在法定的退休年齡做延後的政策跟姚委員說沒有的確這段時間其實也蠻多人提到這個延後退休的議題我們也看到有些國家其實已經開始了這個延後退的這個做法也都引起很大的反彈是是是"},{"start":14969.625,"end":14995.394,"text":"所以確實我們其實現在也在收集其實各方的意見因為其實延後退也有分強制的部分延後退還是自願性的部分延後退就是議定嘛所以我想我們其實現在也在收集一些各方針對延後退看法的意見那再進行一些評估不過就確實這個議題就像剛剛委員說的其實在社會上面"},{"start":14996.394,"end":15012.363,"text":"各方看來都可能有很大的差距那這個調高費率未定延後退休也還要討論那我簡單因為時間的關係我簡單再問就是因為財政收支劃分法的修正會不會影響到明年度"},{"start":15025.99,"end":15047.202,"text":"政府的撥補撥補勞保年金的虧損 會不會應該說因為確實勞保的撥補它在我們整體的這個財快的制度裡面它並不屬於法定支出因為它不屬於法定支出的確是有可能會有影響的但是我們會盡力爭取我們會盡力爭取能夠維持跟過去"},{"start":15052.375,"end":15054.021,"text":"至少是相近的水位部長"},{"start":15060.312,"end":15087.04,"text":"會影響的話就是動會越來越大老闆的財務黑洞越來越大然後問題會一直留著當然可能在我們的任期內都不用面對到可是總有一天會面對所以我最後還是要跟勞動部建議也跟召委建議所以說"},{"start":15088.559,"end":15102.532,"text":"勞保撥補之所以是非法訂支出是因為勞保基金的裁員裡面我們沒有把政府撥補列入裁員之一這個第一點我們假如說"},{"start":15105.831,"end":15125.027,"text":"因為我個人是有提修法版本的所以我增加了勞保裁員的項目增加了政府撥補把政府撥補的責任法定化然後我也同時把"},{"start":15129.812,"end":15145.019,"text":"執政黨最不願意面對的政府負擔最終責任入法我覺得假如把這兩個把這個版本拿來討論趕快通過那就變成法定支出那以後"},{"start":15147.023,"end":15173.169,"text":"楊永第一個我想對於大家在講到最終責任的入法我想我們是持開放的態度我們並沒有不願意面對其實是持開放的態度所以你們不會提版本可是委員的版本你們是競表贊同的我可以不可以競表尊重然後持開放的態度那我就也拜託召委就是趕快排因為我覺得"},{"start":15176.07,"end":15197.265,"text":"其實誰執政都不大可能讓勞保倒因為勞保涉及了台灣二分之一的人口的生活權益不可能讓他倒可是與其空口說白話不如把它明文化與其"},{"start":15199.076,"end":15219.042,"text":"一直對著全國的人民說有政府在勞保就不會倒那不如我們就把他入法這個是我的建議啦我相信還有很多相關的問題是我們在這個委員會不斷討論的也希望勞動部這邊不要每一次對每一個面向"},{"start":15227.884,"end":15241.412,"text":"你們都沒有堅定的政策決定我再重申任何一項改革像當初軍工教育連改我也不相信這個是社會大眾的公式"},{"start":15243.124,"end":15254.428,"text":"只是說執政者願不願意下定決心去面對而已好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長來 最後一個許新穎委員質詢謝謝主席 本席請洪部長"},{"start":15275.325,"end":15296.801,"text":"薛恩好部長好 本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空嘛"},{"start":15297.401,"end":15315.623,"text":"所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事 養老委員有提版本 本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化 那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任 這個可以入法"},{"start":15316.184,"end":15340.593,"text":"那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個"},{"start":15343.715,"end":15362.505,"text":"這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以做一些研議討論的"},{"start":15364.399,"end":15391.65,"text":"開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本行政院可以有版本所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個"},{"start":15393.971,"end":15422.221,"text":"想法跟我們報告齁其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想衛環委員會裡面有做成一個組決議齁這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性齁那三個月內對不對來進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估OK所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項"},{"start":15424.784,"end":15451.502,"text":"可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本"},{"start":15452.483,"end":15462.874,"text":"那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分 部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為"},{"start":15468.462,"end":15487.277,"text":"這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會"},{"start":15488.118,"end":15493.521,"text":"來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影"},{"start":15508.277,"end":15524.514,"text":"有可能嗎?那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嘛那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開"},{"start":15526.516,"end":15545.028,"text":"這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎"},{"start":15546.209,"end":15561.144,"text":"呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道"},{"start":15562.084,"end":15581.191,"text":"在這個會議裡面他的會議紀錄或者是應該發言的紀錄其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀錄是紀錄是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程"},{"start":15585.873,"end":15611.53,"text":"我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有的公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大路的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開"},{"start":15612.506,"end":15640.644,"text":"不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以"},{"start":15641.485,"end":15665.065,"text":"所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝好謝謝許委員謝謝部長"},{"start":15673.51,"end":15701.587,"text":"本次會議詢答全部結束委員林德福圖前期所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"162185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162185","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828ee1e3ec824b6f79f55f40b4dcc086d9ff0976ba27860ef1252fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:12:20 - 09:16:02","影片長度":"00:03:42","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:12:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:16:02+08:00","duration":222,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.15159375,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.88596875,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.47159375000001,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":89.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.90721875,"end":94.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.98659375000001,"end":95.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.46284375,"end":108.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.33034375000001,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.71846875,"end":137.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.47346875,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.31034375000002,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.12034375000002,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.60534375,"end":159.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.00596875000002,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.80596875,"end":179.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.00284375,"end":200.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.86034375000003,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.90534375000001,"end":214.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.79909375000003,"end":217.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.08534375000002,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.10596875000002,"end":222.67971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.294,"end":16.419,"text":"主席好各位親愛的家人大家早安今天提出的針對建築法第77條2的修正案說明這條修法目的在於回應社會對室內裝修管理制度簡正變明的期待"},{"start":29.546,"end":31.968,"text":"特別是在檢移裝修案件上推動程序簡化明確責任並強化資訊揭露於數位化的申請機制我們知道現在室內裝修管理辦法第33條已經設計出檢移申請"},{"start":54.519,"end":76.79,"text":"申報制的制度也就是在不影響防火避難措施不變更主要的造構前提下可由專業人員簽章負責包備及準施工但實務上多數縣市政府人要求逐案實際審查導致原本只要數千元的技術服務費變成"},{"start":86.124,"end":93.71,"text":"動輒數萬甚至十萬行政代辦費扼殺了制度原意也讓許多民眾萬惡而卻步因此我們在建築法第七的七條之二中明定建築裝修必依法申請"},{"start":109.82,"end":137.132,"text":"審查許可者應將相關文件張貼於施工出入口明顯處促進社會監督並與中央主管機構得授權工會或技術團體辦理審查的彈性這項設計表面上是揭露施工資訊但實質上是朝向制度責任"},{"start":138.53,"end":145.196,"text":"明確化行政率效率提升的大方向邁進我們也要強調未來在行政商因全面落實簡易裝修制度的立法精神回歸專業負責於抽查機制"},{"start":160.049,"end":168.72,"text":"杜絕長期已造成的成本轉嫁更重要的是要引進線上申請於"},{"start":170.845,"end":177.027,"text":"投資整合平台讓室內裝修案能像消防設備申請一樣透過數位流程快速完成減少人工作業誤差與申請的摩擦最後透過制度簡化責任明確資訊透明與數位轉型我們不僅能讓民眾便利申請也避免"},{"start":201.314,"end":216.962,"text":"裝潢糾紛也能提升公共安全與專業的信任這是本條文修正案的核心精神 敬請大家支持 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"162184","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98280a6e33195391387355f40b4dcc086d9ff0976ba27860ef124cbb1eeebf50ae7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"09:09:47 - 09:12:12","影片長度":"00:02:25","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:09:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:12:12+08:00","duration":145,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.32596875,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.705343750000001,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.764093750000001,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.063468750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.12096875,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.69346875,"end":35.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.78909375,"end":37.915343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.08409375,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.27784375,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.00346875,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.07034375,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.977218750000006,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.26346875,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.781593750000006,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.11409375,"end":64.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.96596875,"end":68.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.42534375000001,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.95471875000001,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.45034375,"end":100.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.94346875000001,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.15846875000001,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.47471875000001,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.29721875000001,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.66409375,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.35159375,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.07159375,"end":120.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.78846875,"end":122.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.04971875000001,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.99034375000001,"end":141.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.62034375000002,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.74659375000002,"end":146.25284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.335,"end":16.933,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位早以下說明介於現行建築法第73條第一項的單數規定針對未領得使用實造之建物不得借用水電則 雖然明文規定"},{"start":18.123,"end":39.67,"text":"明文規範事項例外狀況但是實務上因直轄市或縣市政府應認定相關規定而導致全國試用之標準不一那水電是公共事業影響民眾權利不應該因民眾所在地而有所差異針對未領得使用執照之建築物不准接用水電限制定有事項除外情形"},{"start":41.091,"end":45.215,"text":"1.黑眼地區且非屬都市計劃區地區之建築物2."},{"start":45.215,"end":56.885,"text":"因興建公共、興辦公共設施所需而拆遷具整建需要且無礙都市計劃發展之建築物3."},{"start":56.885,"end":60.388,"text":"天然災害損壞需安置及修復之建築物"},{"start":62.205,"end":84.913,"text":"其他有迫切民生需要之建築物然其適用前適用前提仍是直轄市縣市政府認定相關之規定並無一致性認定標準恐造成各地方適用標準不一那國內部分偏鄉或早期老舊建物有諸多不便的實際情況也有部分屬於經濟弱勢戶難以申領"},{"start":87.754,"end":116.553,"text":"建物使用執照者然而用水用電實為基本民生需求能應適度維護國人健康與民生福祉保障民眾基本權益與本法明文規範之除外情形准予合法申請接水用電因此本席提案修正建築法第73條第一項但書規定以統一法規適用標準保障基本民生水電設置權"},{"start":118.134,"end":141.286,"text":"另外97條的部分包含包含性別平權等發展目標由此可見身心障礙人權身心障礙身心障礙人權的保障以及性別平權已然是各國的共識在高齡化社會下無障礙設施顯然已成為生活中重要的一環人人皆有機會用到以上說明謝謝好謝謝嚴寬衡委員"}]}},{"id":"162183","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162183","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982861fbc6c0cf70406055f40b4dcc086d9ff0976ba27860ef1219376995a466ca645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:07:10 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:07:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:09:41+08:00","duration":151,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.156593750000001,"end":7.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.27034375,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.869093750000001,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.82971875,"end":23.672843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.79096875,"end":26.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.01409375,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.39721875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.13034375,"end":47.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.297843750000006,"end":54.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.09846875,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.190343750000004,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.08346875000001,"end":72.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.08284375000001,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.08159375000001,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.60846875,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.56159375,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.72534375000001,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.49284375,"end":102.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.61409375000001,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.03534375000001,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.68409375,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.58659375,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.49284375,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.58284375,"end":143.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.28284375,"end":147.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.32409375,"end":150.74159375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.535,"end":34.53,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員以及我們各位官員本期想先說明今天對於建築法第97條的提案說明近年來呢性影像犯罪的樣態日益猖獗偷拍外流還有未經同意散佈私密影像的事件層出不窮尤其是在這麼數位科技發達的當下私密影像一旦流入網路就像洪水般的迅速擴散很難以挽回而網路上的每一次點擊每一次轉傳"},{"start":35.47,"end":59.592,"text":"对被害人而言都是无声而沉痛的打击近日爆发的台版N号房事件更赤裸裸的揭示我国在数位性暴力防治的多重的破口除了多起未经同意三部性私密影像的案例曝光社会更震惊于有知名的公众人物涉嫌持有大量非法而消息影像引起广大民众的愤怒以及谴责"},{"start":60.293,"end":80.431,"text":"更令人無法接受的是許多偷拍行為竟發生在我們日常生活的公共空間比如說嫌犯利用公廁、更衣室、游泳池等設備進行偷拍的行為赤裸裸的去挑戰我們公共秩序還有個人隱私的底線嚴重侵蝕社會對公共安全的基本信任"},{"start":81.292,"end":99.356,"text":"這些犯罪行為不僅嚴重侵害個人隱私更動搖我們社會的道德根基現影像犯罪絕非惡作劇或者是一時衝動可以來輕描淡寫的每一個觀看分享或是儲存的人都是這場加害行為的一份子都是維繫數位性暴力這個鏟鏈的共犯"},{"start":102.717,"end":129.859,"text":"性隱私是個人生活中最私密最應該受到保護的領域政府領英更積極的立法還有行政的作為為國人的隱私提供最嚴密的保障這次修正建築法第九十七條不僅將原本兩性平權明確修正為更具包容性的性別平權同時也將隱私保護的設計理念入法要求公共設施在規劃上更應該重視引用"},{"start":130.179,"end":130.519,"text":"好,谢谢陈金辉"}]}},{"id":"162182","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162182","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828439ef228390640165e54a9d835821946f0976ba27860ef12e6f0bca3cc8d690d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:13:40 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我只說它只是還沒拿到死罩啊是對不對你也不能認定它百分之百違法啊在它還沒拿到死罩之前它就可以接水電它可以做很多事喔但是因為你沒有我只問你一個試營運的時候要不要拿到死罩"},{"start":223.586,"end":247.512,"text":"試營運的時候要拿到死罩因為你正常營運的話是一定要拿到死罩我就說試營運啦有沒有拿到死罩因為營運的話你有營業行為一樣反正就是要拿到死罩才可以試營運嘛只要使用就是要拿到那我如果在其他的不是六都裡面我可能我就借這個漏洞我先拿到水電我也沒有說我要營運啊是歐洲門開著啊你要進來啊會不會有這種情況發生"},{"start":252.239,"end":275.346,"text":"過去的確尤其在某些地方大概農地違章工廠這個狀況是比較嚴重是特別的嚴重我就說樣態很多太多了所以其實要解決問題我認為都要解決但如果你只把它入母法我覺得這個危險性太大了那我再請這個複稅署的副署長"},{"start":280.276,"end":304.106,"text":"副稅主陳副署長有請其實我們今天也有講到就是說吳署長也有你的事喔今天有一個說公眾通行的法定空地、私設公路、開放空間享有地下稅減免我認為"},{"start":305.578,"end":327.377,"text":"有些部分確實需要去處理但如果入母法會有我剛說的那個問題發生我想請問一下101有沒有法定空地有對不對那他的法定空地他有沒有目前有沒有工人無償的通行"},{"start":329.178,"end":352.603,"text":"有沒有 有啦 一定有啦 101那麼大怎麼可能會沒有只是有沒有全部 但他還是有啊 對不對那他沒有全部 但我依法令通過 我依這個 我要求我減美他就不用繳地價稅 如果101可以這樣子不用法令空地可以不繳地價稅 你們覺得合理嗎你們覺得合理嗎"},{"start":356.506,"end":378.145,"text":"應該這麼說啦因為所有的這一種所謂的開放空間或是法定空地它當時依照建築法規定的時候它其實只是限縮它的興建空間並不代表說它因此而受損那包含它無廠工種種通行它本來就是也是認定是它的責任之一這也是為什麼"},{"start":378.886,"end":384.63,"text":"有些尤其是開放公簽它是因此而取得容積獎勵的那這個關鍵就變成說你相關的權利跟義務關係是對等的狀況下又去主張所謂的減稅那其實在這種所謂的行使權利義務的對等關係上來講是比較說不過去"},{"start":399.281,"end":414.018,"text":"我舉這個例子其實例子是有兩極啦101這個大家絕對都不同意吧都覺得101你怎麼可能可以不繳嗎這是一個那再來你的法定空地還有什麼還是不是你的私人成全"},{"start":415.49,"end":435.718,"text":"是嘛 未來如果要重建未來或怎麼樣的 都還是私人土地嘛是不是啊那未來還可以都跟分配回來啊對嘛 是嘛齁所以啦 我覺得啦 這一個要解決問題你如果把它入母法裡面啦 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也就是說使用這條道路的人也是可以主張他變成現有巷道"},{"start":566.426,"end":584.325,"text":"這是在地方舉證現有向到實務上非常嚴重的一個問題也就是說我們在過去地方處理的經驗上發生過原本只是私設通路但是因為私設通路是供特定人使用但是你一旦同意開放成無償提供公眾通行"},{"start":585.306,"end":607.923,"text":"據一定時效就會變成人家可以主張這是現有向道現有向道會影響你未來這本身基地的產權範圍跟你的申請建築範圍還有你申請法控的權利這都會衝擊這個都知道嘛你公共通行久了幾十年之後為什麼你變成了既有向道了就是對你原來的所有權利就會產生影響對所以我說這個問題要解決啦"},{"start":612.606,"end":630.823,"text":"不能不解決啦今天這個我覺得方向是對的但我的意思是說可以不用修平均距離的條例修其他的法律就可以解決了你如果修平均距離的條例就會說我說的101的現象這點大家要去深思要去思考啦"},{"start":632.364,"end":650.78,"text":"這個樣態有太多啦都會區的跟非都會區的也有很多啦然後有的呢在透過土地買賣他可能地級熟了他也不知道之前是怎樣結果又變成這樣這些我覺得都應該要去解決人民的困擾那如果你繼承鄉道你也有很多現在是繼承鄉道了"},{"start":651.601,"end":670.193,"text":"你政府還沒徵收啊你政府還沒徵收你沒那寫繼承相當你政府沒有徵收你還是有的地方他如果地主不知道他也沒申請他沒有申請有的還是傻傻的繳稅也是有這種啊對不對所以我覺得這個問題要解決但我在這邊就是說解決"},{"start":671.755,"end":699.986,"text":"要不要修母法 大家要考慮一下 不然全台灣都適用這個我覺得要這個啦 柏霖你柏霖你覺得這樣一句話就好了我同意張委員的看法啦原則上因為還有法控如果要減免地價稅的話是地方稅那我們也確實詢問過所有的地方政府 他們都不是很同意啦"},{"start":701.172,"end":720.711,"text":"地方稅收多不多我覺得那是一件事情我們今天是要解決合理跟不合理張委員講的我們是解決合理跟不合理就不要再平均地權條例處理我只是擔心你真的在這邊修了真的我剛講的101就不用繳稅了這一點大家要思考一下這部份你聽得到嗎我聽得到我同意張委員的看法"},{"start":728.123,"end":728.644,"text":"好,謝謝張宏洛委員"}]}},{"id":"162203","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162203","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828864828441a9284735e54a9d8358219461b0714f80b9af8b55c646c8d84b4e4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:44:27 - 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嚴重違反立法院重視財政紀律的目的而自行做這樣的處置不但打擊地方自治 更是製造憲政上的惡力謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"162181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982848d36ca3e53284d4b8fa27110b4cf3b3f0976ba27860ef12ea2fa0b0c1a4ccb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:09:02 - 09:12:05","影片長度":"00:03:03","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:09:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:12:05+08:00","duration":183,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.56846875,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.329718750000005,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":78.33096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.56721875000001,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.34971875000001,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.19909375,"end":139.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.53221875,"end":157.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.86284375,"end":180.81284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.694,"end":31.569,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位觀眾 早近年來 國內屢見針對幼童施以凝虐之重大刑案不罰年僅僅1、2歲之嬰幼兒遭長期虐待 最終致死 令人痛心疾首儘管現行法在第286條已經針對兒童凝虐行為明文入罪"},{"start":32.61,"end":40.187,"text":"並在去年修法加重其刑至二分之一但實務上仍有難以有效赫子此類似的案件一再重演"},{"start":41.263,"end":60.891,"text":"顯見現行法制對防止嚴重兒童虐童案的嚇阻效果仍有不足也難以回應社會對於加重刑責保護幼童生命權的高度期待根據衛福部的統計112年全國受虐兒少案件多達12646人其中未滿6歲者"},{"start":65.553,"end":82.982,"text":"擊打2868人佔比將近23%年紀越小越沒有自我保護與表達能力如果無法及時發現常常淪落為長期凌虐的受害對象最終釀成不可挽回的憾事尤其以112年12月24號的凱凱案"},{"start":86.264,"end":108.293,"text":"為典型 僅一歲的男童遭托保姆凌虐致死 引發社會強烈憤慨之後更有近14萬人在公共政策網路平台連署主張虐童致死應處於死刑或無期徒刑 並不得假釋足以證明人民對於強化兒少保護的強烈期待"},{"start":109.153,"end":137.953,"text":"本席針對刑法第271條及286條提案增定加重處罰之規定對於未滿7歲之人若以凝虐方式致死處以死刑或無期徒刑處以無刑徒刑者明文不得假釋並蓬佈提高對於未滿18歲兒少虐待之基本刑責致重傷致死結果處罰之標準應符合比例原則提升整體法律威嚇力"},{"start":139.289,"end":156.326,"text":"所以我們這次所修正的條文除參考聯合國兒童權利公約與公民與政治權利國際公約的精神外更充分體現我國政府對於保障兒童生命權身心發展與人性尊嚴之責任"},{"start":157.947,"end":180.093,"text":"希望透過此事修法建立社會對於兒女您容忍之共識並有效嚇子不法使每一位孩子皆能在安全與尊重中成長茁壯敬請各位委員支持本修法修正提案結束完成立法程序落實大家對兒童權益的保障謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982824ee88d0babb40e1b8fa27110b4cf3b3f0976ba27860ef123dd907335e0676765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:05:35 - 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謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828584c9b48c25e4a28b8fa27110b4cf3b3f0976ba27860ef125e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:02:23 - 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-04T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T12:00:00+08:00","duration":12539,"影片長度":"03:28:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 - 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那麼我們現在就開始進行提案說明請提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請陳金輝委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2173.702,"end":2201.694,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員以及我們各位官員本期想先說明今天對於建築法第97條的提案說明近年來呢性影像犯罪的樣態日益猖獗偷拍外流還有未經同意散佈私密影像的事件層出不窮尤其是在這麼數位科技發達的當下私密影像一旦流入網路就像洪水般的迅速擴散很難以挽回而網路上的每一次點擊每一次轉傳"},{"start":2202.834,"end":2226.261,"text":"對被害人而言都是無聲而沉痛的打擊近日爆發的台版N號房事件更赤裸裸的揭示我國在數位性暴力防治的多重的破口除了多起未經同意散布性私密影像的案例曝光社會更震驚於有知名的公眾人物涉嫌持有大量非法兒少性影像引起廣大民眾的憤怒以及譴責"},{"start":2227.461,"end":2247.602,"text":"更令人無法接受的是許多偷拍行為竟發生在我們日常生活的公共空間比如說嫌犯利用公廁、更衣室、游泳池等設備進行偷拍的行為赤裸裸的去挑戰我們公共秩序還有個人隱私的底線嚴重侵蝕社會對公共安全的基本信任"},{"start":2248.323,"end":2269.223,"text":"这些犯罪行为不仅严重侵害个人隐私更动摇我们社会的道德根基现影像犯罪绝非恶作剧或者是一时冲动可以来轻描淡写的每一个观看分享或是储存的人都是这场加害行为的一份子都是维系数位性暴力这个蝉链的共犯"},{"start":2269.884,"end":2297.009,"text":"性隱私是個人生活中最私密最應該受到保護的領域政府領英更積極的立法還有行政的作為為國人的隱私提供最嚴密的保障這次修正建築法第九十七條不僅將原本兩性平權明確修正為更具包容性的性別平權同時也將隱私保護的設計理念入法要求公共設施在規劃上更應該重視引用"},{"start":2297.529,"end":2322.977,"text":"使用者的隐私落实宪法保障隐私权的核心的精神唯有在制度设计还有社会文化中共同建立对隐私的尊重台湾每一个角落才得以被守护国人的隐私才可以受到真正的保障以上谢谢好谢谢陈金辉委员下一位我们请严宽恒委员两个提案一起进行提案说明严委员有请"},{"start":2325.663,"end":2340.26,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位早以下說明介於現行建築法第73條第一項的單數規定針對未領得使用實造之建物不得借用水電則 雖然明文規定"},{"start":2341.448,"end":2369.653,"text":"沒有規範事項例外狀況但是實務上因直轄市或縣市政府因另訂相關規定而導致全國試用之標準不一那水電是公共事業影響民眾權利不應該因民眾所在地而有所差異針對未領得使用執照之建築物不准接用水電限制定有事項除外情形一 偏遠地區且非屬都市計劃區地區之建築物二 因興建公共"},{"start":2370.413,"end":2383.713,"text":"新辦公共設施所需而拆遷具整建需要且無礙都市計畫發展之建築物3天然災害損壞需安置及修復之建築物4"},{"start":2385.532,"end":2408.24,"text":"其他有迫切民生需要之建築物然其適用前適用前提仍是直轄市縣市政府認定相關之規定並無一致性認定標準恐造成各地方適用標準不一那國內部分偏鄉或早期老舊建物有諸多不便的實際情況也有部分屬於經濟弱勢戶難以申領"},{"start":2411.081,"end":2439.88,"text":"建物使用執照者然而用水用電實為基本民生需求能應適度維護國人健康與民生福祉保障民眾基本權益與本法明文規範之除外情形准予合法申請接水用電因此本席提案修正建築法第73條第一項但書規定以統一法規適用標準保障基本民生水電設置權"},{"start":2441.461,"end":2464.663,"text":"另外97條的部分包含性別平權等發展目標由此可見身心障礙人權的保障以及性別平權已然是各國的共識在高齡化社會下無障礙設施顯然已成為生活中重要的一環人人皆有機會用到以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":2467.812,"end":2473.156,"text":"好 謝謝顏寬恆委員下一位我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表麥玉珍委員進行提案說明麥委員有請"},{"start":2482.796,"end":2492.924,"text":"主席好各位親愛的家人大家早安今天提出的針對建築法第77條2的修正案說明這條修法目的在於回應社會對室內裝修管理制度簡正變明的期待"},{"start":2506.054,"end":2508.455,"text":"特別是在檢移裝修案件上推動程序簡化明確責任並強化資訊揭露於數位化的申請機制我們知道現在室內裝修管理辦法第33條已經設計出檢移申請"},{"start":2531.02,"end":2553.295,"text":"申報制的制度也就是在不影響防火避難措施不變更主要的造構前提下可由專業人員簽章負責包備及準施工但實務上多數縣市政府人要求逐案實際審查導致原本只要數千元的技術服務費變成"},{"start":2562.625,"end":2570.212,"text":"動輒數萬甚至十萬行政代辦費扼殺了制度原意也讓許多民眾萬惡而卻步因此我們在建築法第七的七條之二中明定建築裝修必依法申請"},{"start":2586.322,"end":2613.644,"text":"審查許可者應將相關文件張貼於施工出入口明顯處促進社會監督並與中央主管機構得授權工會或技術團體辦理審查的彈性這項設計表面上是揭露施工資訊但實質上是朝向制度責任"},{"start":2615.031,"end":2621.697,"text":"明確化行政率效率提升的大方向邁進我們也要強調未來在行政商應全面落實簡易裝修制度的立法精神回歸專業負責於抽查機制"},{"start":2636.547,"end":2645.216,"text":"杜絕長期已造成的成本轉嫁更重要的是要引進線上申請於"},{"start":2647.346,"end":2653.527,"text":"投資整合平台讓室內裝修案能像消防設備申請一樣透過數位流程快速完成減少人工作業誤差與申請的摩擦最後透過制度簡化責任明確資訊透明與數位轉型我們不僅能讓民眾便利申請也避免"},{"start":2677.812,"end":2693.3,"text":"裝潢糾紛也能提升公共安全與專業的信任這是本條文修正案的核心精神敬請大家支持謝謝大家好謝謝我們民眾黨團代表麥立正委員接下來我們請內政部劉思芳部長進行報告劉部長有請"},{"start":2709.722,"end":2726.063,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員大家早非常感謝各位委員對內政業務的關注跟指導今天大院的內政委員會召開會議審查由很多委員所提案的包括建築法及平均地權條例部分條文的修正草案"},{"start":2727.364,"end":2748.435,"text":"本人應邀前來報告並被質詢針對本次各委員提案的修正條文我們綜合簡要的說明如下首先有關委員所提到因應後疫情時代結構性的缺工建議申報開工免拆除完成的限制並且延長申報開工期限部分因為建築法第54條申報開工細數被查制度"},{"start":2752.677,"end":2771.122,"text":"且無規範應該實質開工使得辦理的事項所以無需要修正那再來有關於建築工程納入第三方公證單位辦理審刊的部分以強化建築物勘驗制度因為申報規定改善方式以及是否經主管建築機關"},{"start":2772.122,"end":2788.632,"text":"或者指定的专业机关团体任可改善完成等已经授权直辖市县市政府于建筑管理自治条例的规则当中定之现行建筑法及各地方自治法规已经可以推动执行也无需修正"},{"start":2789.292,"end":2809.403,"text":"另外在有关近年来建筑工程造成公共安全事件建议修正建筑法第89条提高罚还金额的部分因为罚还金额的合理性涉及各地方建筑物的规模违规样态以及地方政府的实务执行上代拟据共识建议暂不予以修正"},{"start":2810.023,"end":2827.162,"text":"至於有關委員提案建築物領得使用執照後接用水電的部分建立全國一致性的認定標準以保障民生權益考量各地方政府是實際上的需要因為因地制宜所制定的相關規範所以為立地方"},{"start":2827.802,"end":2856.357,"text":"發展的需求本部建議維持原條文的內容那對於提升建築物所有權人使用人建築物公共安全檢查及申報議事加重處罰未依規檢查及申報考量如果將罰還額度提高對於其他違規事項處罰是否符合比例原則上代尼郡共識並且希望能夠聽取各地方政府在推動實務上面的執行意見所以暫不宜修正為宜"},{"start":2856.997,"end":2870.97,"text":"再來有關於建築物室內裝修應該強化施工現場的資訊揭露以及加重處罰因為違反室內裝修致人死傷的責任部分因為建築物室內裝修管理辦法第29條已經有規定"},{"start":2873.252,"end":2901.122,"text":"室內裝修圖說經審核合格領得許可文件之後建築物的起造人所有權人或使用人應將許可文件張貼於施工地點明顯處已經達到資訊揭露的目的另外對於其他違規事項處罰是否符合比例原則上代你一句共識並且希望能夠跟地方政府在執行實務上面有共識之後才來做修正所以暫不宜修正為宜"},{"start":2902.362,"end":2921.653,"text":"有关委员提案据修正建筑法第97条的部分保护隐私权的方式涉及建筑物使用人之需求以及使用行为又保护手段涉及家具家电等商品或设备之综合应用仅以建筑设计构造形式落实隐私权保护尚有困难"},{"start":2922.193,"end":2936.986,"text":"另外根據身心障礙者權益保障法第57條及第88條已經分別明定公共建築物及活動場所之無障礙設備及設施不符合項目與規格者尚未改善或未提具替代"},{"start":2937.366,"end":2944.513,"text":"改善計畫或者未依照核定的改善計畫的期限改善完成各級的目的事業主管機關德議第88條規定予以處罰已經明確規範建築物應該設置建築物無障礙設施及設備"},{"start":2953.021,"end":2969.671,"text":"由內政部已經在建築技術規則定有無障礙建築物的專章並且具體落實建構無障礙環境目標故建築法第九十七條無需修正至於建構性別平權環境僅文字修正那本部尊重大院委員的決議"},{"start":2971.252,"end":2989.366,"text":"對於多位委員提案修正建築法第99條之一將原住民族地區建築物納入得為簡化管理建築物的範圍部分考量現在已就實施範圍逐步在推動而且部分原住民的鄉鎮市區定位位於偏遠地區"},{"start":2990.146,"end":3001.981,"text":"建議仍由各地方政府橫著狹內現行偏遠地區實際需求因地制宜來推動尚不宜來修正最後委員提案有關修正平均地權條例第25條增訂無償工"},{"start":3005.746,"end":3016.77,"text":"公眾通行之法定空地施設通路以及開放空間享有地價稅之減免優惠之規定部分考量地價稅為地方稅而且經過財政部統計民國113年建築基地應保留之法定空地科徵地價稅金額約291億元左右"},{"start":3029.634,"end":3053.029,"text":"相關地價稅優惠將對地方政府之財政收入產生明顯的影響建議予以審慎並且依財政紀律法第五條規定指明彌補資金的來源以上就大院委員的修正法案作二要報告那其他修正內容的部分呢本部已經就這個書面報告提供給委員參考請各位委員多多指教謝謝"},{"start":3056.407,"end":3081.278,"text":"好 謝謝劉世芳部長的報告我們其他單位的報告我們就請各位委員自行參閱我們會刊登公報現在進行詢答委員諮詢前遠離座以下幾點宣告第一 本會委員發言時間六分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘我們上午四點三十分截止發言登記我們今天只進行法案的這個詢答所以我們臨時提案截止提出時間為十一點與本會委員詢答完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見"},{"start":3083.148,"end":3087.652,"text":"沒有好謝謝那我們現在進行詢答請登記第一位蘇喬惠委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":3106.814,"end":3133.471,"text":"來 部長好部長今天要審查這個建築法剛剛這麼多版本啊可見的我們委員對這個台灣的建築管理有非常非常多不同的想法跟期待那我們作為雙北的委員我們當然也關心不過我是這樣覺得我覺得政策啊想法啊其實如果能夠比較有共識一致的時候大家再來決定到修法那我覺得修法的速度才會快啦"},{"start":3133.851,"end":3136.352,"text":"不然從修法倒推回來講政策我覺得這個方向比較不容易達成共識這是我的想法所以我想我今天不就這個建築法各個版本跟部長細究我想要繼續來討論我們關心的這個老宅的問題部長這樣這個問題可以這方向可以"},{"start":3155.959,"end":3180.323,"text":"好那我想為什麼討論老宅呢是因為我們這個在看到行政院要推出的這個強化經濟社會及國土安全任性的特別條例中我看到內政部打算匡列三年五十億的特別預算來推動老宅延售計畫不然我給你一點點時間喔你可以稍微簡要說明一下這是草案嘛還沒有正式推出你們的方向大概如何啊"},{"start":3181.26,"end":3183.743,"text":"非常謝謝蘇委員我想委員的非常高遠的意見有關老宅的部分我想是這個樣子我們在推動這個很多住宅的興建的時候我們要考慮住在住宅裡面的人尤其我們有發現到說根據內政部的統計資料在北三都的部分很多"},{"start":3201.581,"end":3221.757,"text":"老人家住在老宅沒錯那因為老人家的部分的話由長照或是其他的社會福利政策是可以協助但是如果他的房子本身的延壽也可以列為是一種比較屬於硬體方面的社會福利的協助的話我們很樂意幫忙所以院長他就覺得說那我們說不定可以放到特別預算來辦辦看所以我們現在目標大概是以500棟為主500棟對但是500棟"},{"start":3227.782,"end":3249.79,"text":"第一個要務就是說他這個老宅呢必須要有這個防震係數在45不然我們先確認一下您現在講的都還是草案嘛對不對還沒有正式公布就還沒有上路吧草案但是這是方向計劃抱怨就可以了計劃抱怨那位但目前還沒有嘛對不對因為因為預算對啊對啊所以因為你現在跟我們講的是方向嘛我們還有修改的空間好來繼續好"},{"start":3251.431,"end":3275.776,"text":"那所以呢我們以這個方向來看就是說後來也發現到說若干的這些營造或者是建築師工業者他們也願意樂意幫忙是為什麼因為很多老宅其實他是健康的但是他只要做在室內裝潢或者是外面的這個防震做得好的話那老人家住在原來的老舊社區裡面他有老朋友這個生活圈不容易改變因為我們以往會覺得說"},{"start":3276.736,"end":3285.187,"text":"老人家如果讓他要住好一點要移到新的部分但是他就喪失原來生活圈的部分所以大部分我們在考量的時候我們也有跟衛福部一起討論也有跟很多團體包括老盟這些團體在推動所以我們認為這個方向是好的我想"},{"start":3295.56,"end":3317.421,"text":"這個利益大家現在都聽清楚了嘛我想利益良善沒有人會反對甚至是應該表示支持我們台灣的狀況就是這個嬰兒潮的這一代大家認真打拼買了房子但是隨著時間過去人也老了房子也老了但你叫他換新房子坦白講有點難但長輩現在住在所謂的不登公寓也就是四到六層樓這樣的公寓來講其實真的是蠻辛苦的"},{"start":3320.023,"end":3326.067,"text":"那我們過去推出了非常多的政策包括輕盈換居啊這個我們的這個社宅的部分輕盈共居的部分那甚至是我們這個包租代管某程度也是希望你把老房子租出來給年輕人住那你就去住在有電梯的房子這也是一種但顯然這個狀況還不夠多所以現在推出了這個老宅修繕的計畫好那我就想請問啦"},{"start":3346.618,"end":3367.428,"text":"這雖然利益良善不過因為條件限制上面第一你說的是30年以上第二是四到六層樓所以這兩個限制未來都會是就確定是這個方向嗎因為聽到了這個計劃的人坦白講是全社會蠻多的所以他第一他就來問那我七樓呢"},{"start":3368.668,"end":3393.05,"text":"那我這個有其他的呢這個條件是怎麼定的為什麼是30年以上為什麼是4到6樓還有另外一個是因為你這邊寫的是無耐震疑慮這個大家就有話講了大家就覺得你是不是資源有限的狀況下還是應該要把耐震的部分先放在最前面"},{"start":3394.211,"end":3417.161,"text":"這才是一個比較好的方式,不然你的回答是什麼?謝謝蘇委員的關心,我想你講到重點了其實有關耐震補強的部分呢,在我們的國土署它是今年累月在推動的所以是已經本來就有計劃嘛,對不對?是本來就有計劃那我們現在考量,就是老宅延壽要推出來的時候因為它涉及到內政部跟衛福部所以現在就是院長他先匡列50億"},{"start":3419.182,"end":3439.636,"text":"那我們來試辦看看如果是好的話要往比較高樓或是有其他的必須要這個老宅延售的方向的話我們會在不管是公務預算或是基金預算或是特別預算再來繼續推動因為要修善一個房子不是今天講了明天拿到補助款房子自己就好了因為它有室外的公共空間也有室內的裝潢空間兩邊都要一起完成才是真正達到老宅延售然後照顧老人家的立場"},{"start":3444.98,"end":3454.388,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明我想藉著今天的這個對答我想大家應該可以更清楚我們耐震補強的計畫過去也有了而且未來還會繼續推因為它到2025年是計畫的最後一期對還會繼續吧還會繼續嘛因為這是公共安全的問題對嘛 所以耐震補強不但是過去已有的計畫而且未來也會繼續再推現在特別條例推出的是一個50年的計畫那為什麼是50因為就是試試看嘛所以因為試試看誰要替"},{"start":3472.503,"end":3496.187,"text":"攻略一個範圍50億的這個計畫來試試看那在這個試試看的狀況下我們當然有一個新的線有一個條件範圍先框住但如果執行的好的話其實是可以再擴增的部長的意思今天回答的應該是很清楚因為我們因應超高齡的這個時代來臨我們也必須要在這方面做一些社會福利跟無障礙的推動"},{"start":3496.787,"end":3524.192,"text":"我想我是本席是支持啦尤其是這個長輩如果無力維持屋況的狀況政府能夠給予補助或者甚至是引導我相信這個方向是好的所以這個老宅延壽的部分我想本席竟表支持這是第一個部分也是希望好我們也會努力加速啦這樣預算可以通過啦這個是我們立法院這邊可以做的那另外我想要問一個最後一分鐘的時間我想跟部長請教一下我過去有質詢過的部分就是在5月8號的時候我有問過"},{"start":3526.132,"end":3548.304,"text":"都市更新的審議量我這時候一直有問都市更新其實是各縣市各地方大家都在期待因為一定是都市更新計畫完成了之後才有後面所有方方面面到你家會受到影響的推動這沒有問題可是我們再再來看都市更新的都市計畫的審議其實"},{"start":3550.265,"end":3567.551,"text":"坦白講這時間真的是很長啦那我再說一次我們關心的新北的部分我們新北的部分本席特別關心的是從我自己的樹林行政園區開始樹林行政園區呢內政部的都委會最後一次的審議是在2023年12月26號至今已經一年半了"},{"start":3572.162,"end":3585.27,"text":"那他的狀況是現在新北市也同意他要回歸到因為我們有好幾個案所以不如我們就是把第一個送進來的永和行政園區把永和的這一案審出一個結果來變成變成一個通則之後後面新北市的幾個案包括永和、土城、樹林、新莊三重的行政園區就follow這個通則來做沒有錯嘛對不對我們已經討論很多次了可是"},{"start":3600.299,"end":3618.18,"text":"永和行政園區到底要審到什麼時候呢我覺得我們在這裡利用公開的這個詢答的部分我們把事實再說一次也等一下請國土署這邊可以再回答到底問題在哪裡它第一次送進來永和的行政園區第一次送進來是2021年12月28日"},{"start":3620.763,"end":3627.987,"text":"一年之後2023年的1月3號再一次審議兩年之後時隔整整兩年2024年的12月17號是第三次的專業小組會議也是目前本案的最後一次審查那2024的12月17到現在已經又過半年了那他的狀況是在哪裡呢我也給其他新北市的委員們聽聽看嘛這個狀況現在是在等新北市政府補件啊"},{"start":3650.354,"end":3667.325,"text":"現在我們到底要怎麼樣到底你可不可以催促他啊因為大家居民都在等你看從2021到現在一共只開過三次會啊 每次到底是他補件補得不夠快交件交得不夠好還是我們審查審得不夠好不夠快這個可不可以署長你講一下我們大家一起來推動嘛"},{"start":3669.446,"end":3696.798,"text":"是跟委員報告其實因為永和行政園區這個案子因為它本身基地周圍的道路比較小但是市府所提出來的又是非常高容積的方案那所以在交通的疑慮還有這個未來執行的可行性上大概小組都很明確的請他們要做正確的評估但是我想歷次的我們都是很快就趕快做審查提供給他意見"},{"start":3697.658,"end":3711.875,"text":"但就像委員所講的我們其實都在等新北市府的補件那只要只是他補件我們就會趕快再開小組趕快做確認那因為其他幾個行政園區也有類似的條件當然問題最嚴重應該是永和啦"},{"start":3712.355,"end":3726.751,"text":"那要用通則到底是中央決定的還是地方要求的應該是說就幾個行政園區未來處理的機制也就是它是單純的一個行政機關還是未來還可以做其他高隆基轉做商辦"},{"start":3727.852,"end":3753.24,"text":"轉做其他這個住宅的形式的話那這個的確因為五個行政園區都有類似的問題所以我們希望新北市府要確認一個方向那經過小組審查完大會如果通過那其他的行政園區就比照這樣的一個模式來進行可是你用最難的來設立通走然後最難的要拖很久我們簡單的其實是如果不會太難的結果我們一直等那個不知道等到什麼時候這樣不是等於是我們後面的卡住了嗎"},{"start":3753.92,"end":3779.745,"text":"是 我想如果委員這個意見的話我想我們來跟新北市府討論一下他如果覺得其他的案子相對的困難度沒那麼高的話或許我們可以考慮在是不是再調整好 署長 因為這個備詢的資訊時間有限我想我們另外再做本案來做討論而且我想其他的新北委員其實也都非常關心因為這其實遍佈整個新北所以我希望你資料準備好我們到辦公室討論一下這樣好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝署長好"},{"start":3783.422,"end":3785.705,"text":"謝謝蘇喬惠委員 下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員大家早齁有請劉世芳 劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":3804.899,"end":3829.749,"text":"蔣委員早部長好那還是首先第一題請教您一下14題就是有關於這個內政部最近推動全台中正路的改名引發爭議那您也有表示轉型正義是人權問題需要嚴肅對待不管是中央政府或地方政府不要把它當成有錢在推動沒有錢就不推動那您也有表示說不管是改路名還是去除雕像"},{"start":3830.289,"end":3845.528,"text":"或是去除威權主義的象徵如果遇到困難應該中央地方還有在地居民都有共識再來討論那依據內政部統計其實全台現在有300條中正路而且影響的人數會是上萬甚至數十萬"},{"start":3846.349,"end":3865.971,"text":"的居民以及商家包含身份證戶口名簿土地權狀稅單交通站牌營業登記帳單地址等通通要跟著變那民眾現在很擔心不管地方政府受到壓力以及民眾會擔心改資料換證件就要花非常多的時間跟金錢的成本那依據現在網路民調統計也請部長參考"},{"start":3867.873,"end":3889.267,"text":"超過七成的民眾反對改名因為大家認為說其實不是民眾不重視轉型正義而是大家認為回歸生活現實比較重要因為這些重症錄早就變成大家生活習慣的地址了不會想到是威權的象徵民眾也認為說這樣子改名的話對民生其實沒有很多的幫助以前像"},{"start":3889.707,"end":3907.706,"text":"道路改名成功的案例像台北的軍公路改成和平東路四段這樣的改名其實也全部歷經了17年那也是經過在地民眾七成以上支持才一步一步的完成那我是不是想請教部長說現在中央沒有明確公告哪一些的地名哪一些的標誌"},{"start":3908.647,"end":3929.809,"text":"是屬於威權象徵跟建議改名的清單那導致地方不知道如何評估甚至會被質疑說是選擇性推動那是不是可以請教針對入名的部分可不可以說明一下或是未來有機會可以公告建議修改的名單還是完全交由地方自治然後地方來負責是不是請部長可以回答一下"},{"start":3930.549,"end":3950.807,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心如果按照張委員的講法的話那就請大院來修正促轉條例因為根據促轉條例的第五條跟第十一條之二的規定出現於公共建築或場所的紀念免懷威權統治者的象徵應與移除跟改名那各級政府機關構均應配合辦理這個是在2017年的促轉條例在大院通過的"},{"start":3954.17,"end":3966.324,"text":"那很多委員當時也都很多我們的這個執政者不管是中央跟地方當時也都是立法委員那所以我們是根據這個第五條跟第十一條之二的部分將這個威權統治者"},{"start":3969.267,"end":3998.353,"text":"現在局限就是蔣中正蔣經國命名的介入名稱這是屬於威權象徵因於改名所以事實上我們是根據這個大院所通過的這個法律來進行的那在進行的過程當中確實沒有錯就是我們有委託這個有一些這個文史團體來幫我們做一下研究它大概有四種不同的程度譬如說它只是一個塑像或是雕像那可能移除就很快但是移除的過程也不是搬了就走"},{"start":3999.013,"end":4025.271,"text":"就是還是要有完成譬如說它雕像所在地的地方或是學校或者是某一個公共場所之類的那這些移除也慢慢都在完成當中那當然了最難的部分呢是在於說這個張委員所提到的就是路民的改善的部分那因為內政部呢是地方制度的這個主管機關但是地方制度的執行機關並不是只有內政部還包括地方政府"},{"start":4025.851,"end":4037.677,"text":"所以地方政府要配合這個所謂的威權這個象徵時代的這個部分呢要這個改名的部分呢其實我們為什麼在新聞稿的時候有講清楚說這是一個法定的任務或者義務那法定義務的話就要編列預算那編列預算是可多可少因為看你這個狀況而定因為它不是一個"},{"start":4049.124,"end":4054.791,"text":"這個累積性的它只是一個特定的這特定時段完成就完成譬如說我們知道台中市改名為台灣大道或者是台南市政府它中正路把它加註有湯德章大道是類似的一個道理那我們都知道在推動的過程當中我都一再強調溝通非常重要"},{"start":4068.646,"end":4075.652,"text":"這個溝通包括中央政府包括地方政府那包括這個地方上的這個民眾這文史團體那所以我才強調說這個轉型正義這個推動的過程當中要顧慮到轉型正義也要顧慮到程序正義因為我們是一個民主法治的國家內政部也是屬於行政院的這個一個部會而已我們不可能超越法律的授權去處理法律授權以外的東西那但是呢大家都知道"},{"start":4095.59,"end":4103.036,"text":"對於推動這個改名的過程當中很多人有不同的看法有的人覺得說必須要這個就是威權的象徵那有的人覺得說啊無所謂而且呢他從小到大就在中正路吃麵線或者是吃陽春麵或者是吃外省麵長大的那這些呢都可以列入我們可以一起溝通討論的範圍所以我才強調說轉型正義一定要顧及到程序正義"},{"start":4120.111,"end":4144.574,"text":"然後我們希望不要造成這個很多的社會對立但是呢不造成社會對立不是表示你講你的我講我的而是說我們能不能溝通如果溝通有共識的話有共識我們就來推動那坦白跟這個委員講就是我們內政部自己民政司在推動有關轉型正義剛好今年的預算在包一大包裡面也是被凍結啦那但是呢我們都知道如果地方政府有需要的話我們會轉"},{"start":4146.135,"end":4166.076,"text":"到促轉基金來申請相關的基金預算來協助那以上簡單的報告好 謝謝部長的解釋那我想我剛剛也給部長一個清楚的說明機會那希望說未來地方政府在推動的時候也希望說內政部可以來指導一下看地方政府後續要如何去進行也要感受民眾的感受"},{"start":4168.057,"end":4174.339,"text":"主席,接下來我們要討論今天有關於建築法的一個修法那主要的問題點就是說這是根據建築法的第77條之二規定公共使用的建築物裝修必須使用申請室內裝修許可那必須要張貼在現場才可以施工"},{"start":4192.944,"end":4217.263,"text":"那這些制度現在目前來看是非常的完整可是實務上常常看到有些商場為了要爭取一些時間未報準就先行動工或是因為他們的想法就是說企圖可以用還沒有這個申請核准就開始施工那創造一些時間差來說短暫停營業的一些損失那我想要請教就是說因為現在有如果一些裝修現場沒有申請沒有張貼也沒有這個消防防護計劃"},{"start":4220.225,"end":4244.945,"text":"那我們來請教一下因為我們知道說現在裝修的案子在全台灣非常的多那現有的茶盒的量能我們想應該是相對有點不足那我來想請教就是說那現有的機制面對這樣的情況的時候要如何來運行是不是說只能依照民眾檢舉那是不是說有一些主動申報的茶盒機制不能遇到事故才亡羊補牢是不是請署長回答"},{"start":4246.026,"end":4269.444,"text":"感謝委員其實原來在試裝的這一個試裝辦法裡面本來針對這一個要張貼這個施工的資訊那在試裝辦法第29條都已經有明訂了所以在法令上來講因為建築法是母法所以我們在下授在建築屋的部分有建築基礎規則跟試裝的辦法那所以詳細的執行"},{"start":4271.386,"end":4289.861,"text":"細節我們都會定在執法裡面所以這是原來在執法就有第二個就是說當然對於這一個申報開工它是屬於在被查制當然在形式上你如果沒有完成這樣子的話那經過稽查確實屬於未申報開工的話那當然可以依照建築法的規定去進行相關的處罰"},{"start":4290.802,"end":4305.681,"text":"那但是就像委員所講的其實現在施工查驗的部分那地方政府其實有些地方政府還是屬於在行政裡面自己會去辦相關的稽查但是也有些縣市政府已經都有委託相關的工會去做稽查"},{"start":4306.522,"end":4323.73,"text":"那至於這個稽查的量能跟次數要不要再增加我想我們可以再找地方政府來研議這部分我們原廠都會尊重地方政府就他的行政機制上要如何來加強那我們會站在監督的立場就是說再跟他們討論看看是否請他們再加強這個稽查的次數好 謝謝署長那署長就是說因為現在"},{"start":4328.092,"end":4349.06,"text":"整個機制來講我們現在就在協助努力不管是地方機場的加強或是請工會來協助那可是我現在比較擔心的是說會不會因為資訊不透明會有一些違法裝修的一些問題那變成說如果以民眾他們有沒有辦法及時查詢相關有沒有在裝修的這些資訊那如果或者是發生"},{"start":4350.44,"end":4362.649,"text":"發現的違規行為那是不是有一些可以可以去這個國土署我們把設置相關裝修許可的資料的網站讓民眾來查詢不是大家就是檢舉來的時候沒有一些可以依照的依據"},{"start":4363.778,"end":4390.198,"text":"感謝委員其實我們陸陸續續現在雖然地方政府自己有的有能力做相關的網站那來揭露但是我也知道有些地方政府礙於經費是他並沒有揭露相關的這個資訊那這個我想我們來檢討我們署內的這一個健管相關許可的網站來找地方政府來討論看是否一種是鼓勵地方政府設另外一種就集中把這些資訊也集中到我們的網站"},{"start":4390.558,"end":4401.006,"text":"那我們也來做一些管理我想委員這個建議我們來找地方政委一起來商討好 謝謝副市長 謝謝副市長感謝委員謝謝張志倫委員下一位我們請麥義貞委員質詢謝主席"},{"start":4417.884,"end":4443.96,"text":"有請我們的國土署署長吳署長有請委員好好 署長好要請教署長依照我們建築法第77條之2第4項的規定收權訂定了什麼法規 你知道嗎"},{"start":4449.319,"end":4469.618,"text":"委員指的是市莊管理辦法的修正嗎?這個是建築物市內修正管理辦法啦所以我是要問你有沒有知道我想要請教一下依據建築物的市內裝修管理辦法"},{"start":4471.135,"end":4473.736,"text":"25條的規定室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責當店建築物之分間隔位置變更增加或減少經審查機制"},{"start":4492.755,"end":4498.037,"text":"認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中室內裝修法的25條字建築物自分間"},{"start":4509.025,"end":4533.935,"text":"的分間牆的位置變更 掙扎或減少經審查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年二月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡 我們都沒有看到"},{"start":4534.894,"end":4559.546,"text":"跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說"},{"start":4560.194,"end":4583.193,"text":"涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後"},{"start":4583.613,"end":4592.027,"text":"我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣"},{"start":4593.288,"end":4610.691,"text":"但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有"},{"start":4621.193,"end":4650.453,"text":"跟我們報告我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的"},{"start":4651.313,"end":4670.61,"text":"我們是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎"},{"start":4678.17,"end":4692.348,"text":"不能又說工會嘛應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦那"},{"start":4696.67,"end":4708.344,"text":"原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢"},{"start":4709.09,"end":4711.692,"text":"對 但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理"},{"start":4731.947,"end":4735.268,"text":"市场申请价最少就是6万最多就10万了请问这样子的不是老民吗如果是这样子的高费用大大的影响我们小小的住宅业的业主的申请的意愿"},{"start":4748.252,"end":4770.64,"text":"所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是我目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個通過線上申請辦法如果你你沒有去改變變成是"},{"start":4773.523,"end":4777.045,"text":"萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責"},{"start":4790.448,"end":4817.586,"text":"跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法"},{"start":4819.767,"end":4839.063,"text":"那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能"},{"start":4839.824,"end":4854.137,"text":"那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係齁因為第一個問題就是說工會的問題"},{"start":4859.421,"end":4864.525,"text":"第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業"},{"start":4886.721,"end":4890.723,"text":"分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計"},{"start":4915.712,"end":4938.205,"text":"租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是"},{"start":4944.768,"end":4963.301,"text":"掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛這個事就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有那因為這個在經濟部商業商業是這個地點說明一下這是經濟部的你要找哪一個說明一下三個業者找誰"},{"start":4969.505,"end":4980.013,"text":"就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才你就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行"},{"start":4994.324,"end":5018.559,"text":"我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思"},{"start":5023.756,"end":5034.365,"text":"現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請"},{"start":5046.054,"end":5051.399,"text":"剛才你說什麼工會兩個工會是他們的事情他們要怎麼樣跟你們的事情等一下第二項就是說內容非常多所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們"},{"start":5066.711,"end":5081.646,"text":"署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理跟我們報告其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容你要問十個人民你才知道要去裝修室找哪一個"},{"start":5089.373,"end":5094.116,"text":"所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個牽涉就是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高"},{"start":5119.133,"end":5121.295,"text":"高度的專業技術的行業卻有長期就是法治的邊緣制度不健全不分層級不設門檻導致就是優質的設計師無法獲得應有的肯定非法施工卻就是橫行無止所以危害人民的生命安全"},{"start":5139.807,"end":5144.491,"text":"我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5的動作他們在這樣講話一閃點點經濟部也是在認得混亂所以呢我們的行業的混亂所以導致今天怎樣去做所以我們就是說要希望我們國家尊重應有的"},{"start":5159.583,"end":5162.566,"text":"的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們制度的作業三個月內提出我們的一個"},{"start":5176.621,"end":5180.282,"text":"時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度"},{"start":5197.586,"end":5202.832,"text":"的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望"},{"start":5216.914,"end":5226.958,"text":"署長,我們提出的問題,你來解決問題,不要什麼都是罷人,罷人應該死不了,安排他的台階步驟,我們希望是要這樣,要有這樣子的要求我希望你就提出明確的報告,還有具體的進度表,才是你要去承諾大家的,謝謝"},{"start":5242.576,"end":5244.257,"text":"主席,我們請部長跟國土署署長部長跟署長"},{"start":5269.946,"end":5287.354,"text":"跟部長應該知道最近隔離期跟婚禮都有發生健康基礎的問題在這裡面說實在的,我們都覺得說我們的百姓欠也欠,去買買一間房子"},{"start":5295.905,"end":5303.531,"text":"以前是怕自己買的時候不便宜所以我們中央政府有一個信託在信託裡面我們有五個方法讓健康的選擇可以在我看起來這五個方法"},{"start":5321.368,"end":5327.43,"text":"差不多都是保障健康完全沒有看到說我們要處理好萬一健康倒下或是健康沒有進行的時候要如何對我們的百姓來有什麼幫助尤其這五個方法"},{"start":5351.494,"end":5354.136,"text":"不是我們買房子的人選擇的啦是建商自己選擇的尤其跟他最近發生了一件事這個建商是選擇他的基金互相"},{"start":5371.101,"end":5373.822,"text":"他在這個規定裡面,雖然我們沒有在祈祷,沒有在什麼,也知道他們家鄉有很多公司的,互相來做報,這間如果倒閉,一年代的關係,就都倒閉了,所以說保證,這個規定當中,我真的看到,"},{"start":5398.294,"end":5404.256,"text":"這二十五個,我們的服務組的定情,對我們的企業是這麼大,要不要收了解起來?說實在,我鼻鼻鼻鼻的很辛苦,你看他們欠也欠,有的拿八十萬,有的已經拿兩百幾萬,要不然,我們才有辦法保障他們什麼?"},{"start":5428.089,"end":5432.874,"text":"像我們說的那樣,因為他還有信託啊,所以我不怕結果沒記住說,那棟房子已經去到95%了,已經要交他們的租金了,一箱給他拿回去"},{"start":5449.804,"end":5450.845,"text":"像這個問題,雖然我們沒有辦法去管理健康,但我們的心保是不是要有一個修改改善"},{"start":5466.817,"end":5468.998,"text":"我感覺看起來,這國家怎麼幫助北省什麼啦所以在這裏面的過程當中,保證你有什麼好的意見給這裡的北省年輕人想要買房子,不可以再封,說那麼難聽的,說這麼方便啦說好聽的,說健康又沒錢沒資料去北省爛尾路啦"},{"start":5495.715,"end":5500.759,"text":"所以保證在這裡我最緊要講到四分之一你如何要讓北省知道嗎說實在對一個北省人來說有的有錢人聽到沒什麼對一個北省人對我來說我作為北省人說的話是非常心痛的保證是不是你有什麼好辦法"},{"start":5525.537,"end":5531.618,"text":"報告委員 感謝委員的關心尤其是這間部份一般聽說就是爛尾樓但是這19戶裡面已經全部賣掉了但是以前有拆出一個叫做 戒金信託 價金信託就是從我來講 保険在裡面選定"},{"start":5550.843,"end":5563.16,"text":"那價金信託的部分呢我們怎麼樣從這個地方來拆解包括說未來可能要走到民事訴訟的部分相關的處理機制我可不可以請我們地政司長幫你報告一下好不好我們這裡來看要如何的改觀因為 司長"},{"start":5566.445,"end":5568.547,"text":"因為保庭法解說這樣,我告訴你,是覺得我們未來這個環不是保障健康,在我所了解,他的地已經是第二、第三台,所有有19號買的人"},{"start":5588.462,"end":5596.633,"text":"我全都沒辦法請出任何什麼職所以說在這個規定裡面,我們的手法裡面漸漸世代的變化,我們北省的立委說,我覺得有信託"},{"start":5606.34,"end":5613.084,"text":"跟健相拿回去,我找小孩就好了結果沒去過,第五條的這個找小孩的時候小孩說,跟他去交代,跟我給他娘,跟他一娘了了"},{"start":5621.741,"end":5640.259,"text":"市長你知不知道那個委員一直很關心這個案子所以那個嘉義市的部分已經在昨天有召開消保的一個調處那這個房子的話建案其實是已經蓋好可是死到還拿不出來那因為昨天因為建商他們也沒有出面所以以至於調處不成"},{"start":5641.42,"end":5662.758,"text":"那其實嘉義市政府之前也在有透過工會在看有沒有建商有續建的機制這個也是另外在處理的一條路那委員特別關心就是有關於預售履約保證機制就是要怎麼樣照顧好我們買方保護好我們買方其實我們內政部從去年前年就開始去做一些相關的檢討"},{"start":5663.499,"end":5684.19,"text":"那因為那會涉及到...那相關的檢討到現在有檢討到什麼出來嗎因為現在的部分要涉及到修正預修預定型化契約的規定那你現在說的就是要修出來的嘛風雄都出來了風雄都出來了風雄都出來了 要不然對甲乙氏發生這件事都沒辦法知道啦"},{"start":5685.657,"end":5688.419,"text":"市長,我們有研究要怎麼改善,不是一組研究兩組研究,部隊也要研究,職員也要研究,不是這樣啦!我們發生事情,覺得沒有辦法保障社會這件事,我們就要過程處理啦!"},{"start":5709.005,"end":5713.367,"text":"你現在這樣在那裡煩人了,發動的聲聲鼓鼓都說,我們應該要關心民生啦!的事情啦!大家記住了!記住了!市長,說實在,我身為在家裡的妻子的時候,我看到這個來發生的時候,我相信我們為了不是家家裡的妻子而已"},{"start":5736.288,"end":5737.628,"text":"很多地方都有,結果沒辦法,變成沒辦法啦!市長,在這裡我也知道你還沒提出啦!我先跟你在這裡談到的時候,我問你多久可以提出?"},{"start":5756.486,"end":5762.891,"text":"我們現在已經說了差不多了,存一些細節再處理有時候我們在沙溝內有個方案...沙溝的喔?沙溝的依賴如果發生什麼事情,他們就憑什麼不說我也是自己的事件,我們這裡的案件是不是會斷更快"},{"start":5777.483,"end":5792.714,"text":"那個委員報告一下嘉義市的部分我們先請嘉義市政府協助民眾看是不是從什麼相關的法律途徑先來處理是啦,可以改革開支可以還是可以你們看我後面不會在這裡發這麼大的脾氣啦因為說實在找的問題都找了啦這是我們覺得說我們這個說話難聽的啦正經的啦"},{"start":5806.476,"end":5825.705,"text":"一定要保護健康啦所以未來一定要保護賣出的人啦我們現在的風險就是保護消費者賣出的消費者市長你剛才說三公尾你會再提早多久"},{"start":5831.451,"end":5837.676,"text":"有涉及到那個消費者我知啦我才不知有涉及到這個問題即使我不是在這裡幫你努力他說三個月、兩個月、一個月我們負責任外省就可以負責任幫助一些人買房子"},{"start":5851.186,"end":5853.349,"text":"回到我的家鄉可以拿到三天補貨啦所以市長這件事要緊好不好好謝謝委員在這裡我要跟我們的部長"},{"start":5865.196,"end":5870.401,"text":"這裡討論我們今天的建築法裡面,有第73條第一項的規定就是說,我們這一項,它的建築物,如果可以申請加水加電,但是電池為了照顧它弱勢的家庭"},{"start":5889.162,"end":5896.225,"text":"他要去違章,要去申請,要不然他那麼弱勢,他沒水沒電,說實在也可能所以在這個過程當中,我們台北市在83年以上,台灣在92年以上"},{"start":5911.886,"end":5914.447,"text":"有的事都沒有在認可,但是在這個規定當中,我認為,如果你有特殊弱勢,我們本來就要到三天後,我們中央照顧這個弱勢到出多少錢,關心多少,但是也不能亂來,像這個問題當中,我認為我們要一視同仁,"},{"start":5941.974,"end":5943.637,"text":"我們不能做爛好人啦,李署長,我先跟你講一下,要如何去這個問題,做好全台灣合併幫的條例,來"},{"start":5958.095,"end":5968.351,"text":"跟委員報告 其實當時這個母法的規定本來就會預留一個預留一個就是說有特殊條款啦也就是說我們就很了解有一些稍微比較偏遠啦或是說有一些地方 它有可能這個"},{"start":5973.078,"end":5982.781,"text":"有一些透過一個傷害 尤其是骨瘤的處啦它如果經過地震或有傷害過 它如果要頂著它總不可能說 我一個頂著 我處要頂卡住 還頂著我相信我們有很多的情形是 原地這個辦法就頂不住所以我們原地在這個條文裡面就是希望說你地方政府如果確實有迫切民生需要的那這一些其實就會變成說 它是本來就可以除外條款"},{"start":5999.767,"end":6006.429,"text":"那所以就這個部分我們也是希望讓地方政府有自己的經過自己的需要啦因為每一次的經營確實沒有工所以這一點我們為什麼...阿那這樣台北市給他通過他中間差九噸是阿所以... 阿那他會在一個八成覺得比較倒霉"},{"start":6020.101,"end":6031.972,"text":"應該這樣說啦 因為我想在很多地方他也會有一些除外條款那除外條款當然地方政府會去以實際情形去認啦不會說一定要強制去做我認為我們中央的手法是要專門照顧全台灣的百姓尤其這條是照顧全台灣百姓若是"},{"start":6042.725,"end":6048.048,"text":"所以我們勿忙 再照顧好 既然要修緩的時候我們就要注意不好好的變相是一個太過親切的條款"},{"start":6059.653,"end":6068.541,"text":"因為這件事你要特別注意因為我講這樣應該署長你做得很久了我去台南來你了解我講的問題出一台因為我們鼓勵有正經的我們鼓勵有正經的部分太多了因為這時候都跟民生都合作好我也不需要說"},{"start":6082.052,"end":6089.796,"text":"有遇到任何傷害或其他事件,你就要再過去打電話來我會這樣說,你要去香港的主委,我們要修衛生不要覺得說有問題"},{"start":6095.509,"end":6107.294,"text":"我了解 因為他出事了 當然你今天如果遇到公共安全危險當然我們也要 要檢修那個環節 那是不對啦好 醫生 署長 這要注意喔好 謝謝 王美惠委員的質詢這個爛尾樓的問題 這希望內政部盡速來做研議啦這我們不排除 到時候要用專保的方式來處理齁"},{"start":6124.449,"end":6126.03,"text":"下一位我們請張宏祿委員質詢我先請署長吳署長有請主長其實今天我們要討論的這些不管很多建築法或平均地權條例"},{"start":6153.339,"end":6162.469,"text":"很多我覺得都有道理啦都從各個角度去看都有道理但如果把它入法在母法裡面寫這樣"},{"start":6164.173,"end":6192.219,"text":"很多的因地制宜的這個好像又沒有了不知道署長你的看法對其實我們其實就整個建築法的修法來講我們其實長期的方向應該是盡可能在某些條件只做原則性的揭示那盡可能尊重地方因為建管畢竟是地方的權責地方的權責為主所以我們有些部分是希望由授權地方政府來因地制宜會比較妥適一點"},{"start":6194.22,"end":6209.338,"text":"因地制宜其實也是個彈性啦我舉一個啦齁如果說署長沒有拿到死照的房子是合法房屋嗎呃應該是說他有一些是屬於早期那不不不不不不"},{"start":6210.683,"end":6225.621,"text":"我先問你 如果是新蓋的房子新蓋的那當然他沒有辦法合法他如果拿不到死照的應該說是沒有拿到 還是拿不到死照拿不到死照那通常就代表他在建築設計上是可能有違反相關的規定"},{"start":6226.77,"end":6255.389,"text":"可能違反安全規定 可能違反什麼 也有很多啊對不對是 也有可能違反土地使用規定 可能都有對 好 我們先不用管他違反使用規定啦有可能他的這一些安全措施或什麼的所以他拿不到死照那如果是在獨匯區裡面如果我們通過了他會不會用這個法律的條文去要求地方政府先給他接水電會不會有這種情況發生也是有可能啦"},{"start":6256.348,"end":6259.348,"text":"也是有但是一般的應該有很大的可能吧"},{"start":6260.905,"end":6284.6,"text":"對啦 因為他的狀況真的大家都不太一樣對嘛 如果你設多位區的話應該有很大的可能那他如果接的水電的話我跟你講可能他沒有拿到實照很多人可能就會偷偷搬進去他可以以工地的方式或什麼他可能可以在裡面喔 就可以生活了喔應該有些是最重要還有一些是屬於營業據點的違規營業"},{"start":6286.761,"end":6315.503,"text":"我本來還要再講你先講違規營業跟違規入住都有可能對嘛最主要我本來就要問如果是一個商場或營業的他沒有拿到死照他如果可以接水電他可以做很多事情沒錯對不對所以我覺得你如果入法的話會有非常大的問題因為你母法已經規定了這樣也會衍生很多的問題喔包括交屋包括什麼的這些問題"},{"start":6317.006,"end":6323.773,"text":"這個署長如果是這樣的話以後你們國土署跟地方政府要怎麼處理這些問題啊"},{"start":6326.123,"end":6349.358,"text":"可是目前來講違反建築法跟接水接電它是沒有相關的直接對接關係你違反建築法不不不 我只說它只是還沒拿到死罩啊你也不能認定它百分之百違法啊在它還沒拿到死罩之前它就可以接水電它可以做很多事喔我只問你一個市營運的時候要不要拿到死罩"},{"start":6350.716,"end":6374.662,"text":"試營運的時候要拿到屎罩因為你正常營運的話是一定要拿到屎罩不然我就說試營運啦有沒有拿到屎罩因為營運的話你有營業行為一樣反正就是要拿到屎罩才可以試營運嘛只要使用就是要拿到那我如果在其他的不是六都裡面我可能我就借這個漏洞我先拿到水電我也沒有說我要營運啊是歐洲門開著啊你要進來啊會不會有這種情況發生"},{"start":6379.392,"end":6402.511,"text":"過去的確尤其在某些地方大概農地違章工廠這個狀況是比較嚴重是特別的嚴重我就說樣態很多太多了所以其實要解決問題我認為都要解決但如果你只把它入母法我覺得這個危險性太大了那我再請這個複稅署的副署長"},{"start":6408.367,"end":6431.259,"text":"副稅主陳副組長有請其實我們今天也有講到就是說吳署長也有你的事喔今天有一個說公眾通行的法定空地、私設公路、開放空間享有地下稅減免我認為"},{"start":6432.728,"end":6454.527,"text":"有些部分確實需要去處理但如果入母法會有我剛說的那個問題發生我想請問一下101有沒有法定空地有對不對那他的法定空地他有沒有目前有沒有工人無償的通行"},{"start":6456.328,"end":6479.734,"text":"有沒有應該有啦一定有啦101那麼大怎麼可能會沒有應該只是有全部或沒有全部而已只是有沒有全部啊但他還是有啊對不對那他沒有全部但他我依法令通過我依這個我要求我減美地他就不用繳地價稅如果101可以這樣子不用法令空地可以不繳地價稅你們覺得合理嗎你們覺得合理嗎"},{"start":6483.656,"end":6505.278,"text":"應該這麼說啦,因為所有的這種所謂的開放空間或是法定空地,它當時依照建築法規定的時候它其實只是限縮它的興建空間,並不代表說它因此而受損那包含它無場公、中眾通行,它本來就是也是認定是它的責任之一,這也是為什麼"},{"start":6506.039,"end":6511.763,"text":"有些尤其是開放公簽他是因此而取得容積獎勵的那這個關鍵就變成說你相關的權利跟義務關係是對等的狀況下又去主張所謂的減稅那其實在這種所謂的行使權利義務的對等關係上來講是比較說不過去"},{"start":6526.435,"end":6541.171,"text":"我舉這個例子其實例子是有兩極啦101這個大家絕對都不同意吧都覺得101你怎麼可能可以不繳嗎這是一個那再來你的法定空地還有什麼還是不是你的私人成全"},{"start":6542.64,"end":6562.872,"text":"是嘛 未來如果要重建未來或怎麼樣的 都還是私人土地嘛是不是啊未來還可以都跟分配回來啊對嘛 是嘛齁所以啦 我覺得啦 這一個要解決問題你如果把它入母法裡面啦 你會衍生出更多的問題"},{"start":6565.277,"end":6580.073,"text":"為什麼要請複稅組其實我們現在的這個土地稅法裡面其實就有規定了吧對不對那我們如果要解決有一些比如說比較不是都會區裡面的問題"},{"start":6583.038,"end":6607.355,"text":"那我們用土地稅法來處理應該是比較直接也比較快吧副署長跟委員報告因為在土地稅減免規則裡面本來就有規定說是無償公共通行的道路它本來就是免地價稅那這個部分是因為法控的部分在112年經過憲法法院來判決認定的時候其實法控沒有免地價稅是沒有違反平等原則的"},{"start":6608.075,"end":6625.766,"text":"那他這個只是在判決的最後面有附帶說他如果有超過他應該要超過他的法令控制範圍的時候因為他可能無償公共通行大過他的法令控制範圍的時候希望我們去考量一下那這個部分我們有真的有跟內政部在密切合作在做考量"},{"start":6626.266,"end":6638.814,"text":"就是還是要請法定公立所有權人去申請分更如果能夠分得出來說哪一個部分是屬於公眾通行的話其實是經過認定完之後用凸檢的規定就可以來做一個處理的"},{"start":6641.257,"end":6665.522,"text":"反正我認為啦現在用土地稅法用什麼的可以處理這些問題也不用再來入母法我的意思是這樣但這些問題要不要解決我認為要解決啦還是必須要解決但是如果我們現在馬上就入母法就會產生101的問題101它可以合法你就是這樣啊"},{"start":6667.369,"end":6692.636,"text":"這樣子對全國來講我覺得會有不公平的地方是 我也補充另外一個概念這是在實務上的問題就是說當你出去所謂無場公 公眾通行的時候就現在的狀況 你有些原來是私設通路也是屬於你產權的部分經過一定的時效以後使用人 也就是說使用這條道路的人也是可以主張他變成現有巷道"},{"start":6693.576,"end":6711.478,"text":"這是在地方舉證現有向到實務上非常嚴重的一個問題也就是說我們在過去地方處理的經驗上發生過原本只是私設通路但是因為私設通路是供特定人使用但是你一旦同意開放成無償提供公眾通行"},{"start":6712.459,"end":6734.236,"text":"據一定時效就會變成人家可以主張這是現有向道現有向道會影響你未來這本身基地的產權範圍跟你的申請建築範圍還有你申請法控的權利這都會衝擊這個都知道嘛你公共通行久了幾十年之後為什麼你變成了既有向道了就是對你原來的所有權利就會產生影響對所以我說這個問題要解決啦"},{"start":6739.74,"end":6757.95,"text":"不能不解決啦今天這個我覺得方向是對的但我的意思是說可以不用修平均季節條例修其他的法例就可以解決了你如果修平均季節條例就會說我說的101的現象這點大家要去深思要去思考啦"},{"start":6759.511,"end":6777.932,"text":"這個樣態有太多啦都會區的跟非都會區的也有很多啦然後有的呢在透過土地買賣他可能地級熟了他也不知道之前是怎樣結果又變成這樣這些我覺得都應該要去解決人民的困擾那如果你繼承鄉道你也有很多現在是繼承鄉道了"},{"start":6778.752,"end":6793.777,"text":"你政府還沒徵收啊你政府還沒徵收你沒那寫繼承相當你政府沒有徵收你還是有的地方他如果地主不知道他也沒申請他沒有申請有的還是傻傻的繳稅也是有這種啊對不對所以我覺得這個問題要解決但我在這邊就是說解決"},{"start":6798.905,"end":6827.139,"text":"要不要修母法 大家要考慮一下 不然全台灣都適用這個我覺得要這個啦 柏霖你柏霖你覺得這樣一句話就好了我同意張委員的看法啦原則上因為還有法控如果要減免地價稅的話是地方稅那我們也確實詢問過所有的地方政府 他們都不是很同意啦"},{"start":6828.217,"end":6850.707,"text":"我們地方稅收多不多我覺得那是一件事情我們今天是要解決合理跟不合理我們是解決合理跟不合理就不要再平均地權條例處理我只是擔心你真的在這邊修了真的我剛講的101就不用繳稅了這一點大家要思考一下這補充你聽得懂嗎我聽得懂我同意張委員的看法好 謝謝張宏祿委員"},{"start":6858.246,"end":6859.787,"text":"下一位我們請高金素美委員質詢謝謝召委我要請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長"},{"start":6881.894,"end":6894.182,"text":"原住民族周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下"},{"start":6896.978,"end":6913.905,"text":"原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系"},{"start":6914.605,"end":6936.204,"text":"而國民政府來台灣之後呢 陸續以所謂的建築法 還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式 然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住"},{"start":6936.864,"end":6958.837,"text":"所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建物都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家"},{"start":6960.118,"end":6983.007,"text":"為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕"},{"start":6985.852,"end":6990.516,"text":"署長 組長 還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下"},{"start":6997.408,"end":7024.486,"text":"主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90%"},{"start":7027.488,"end":7036.831,"text":"包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市"},{"start":7048.795,"end":7074.986,"text":"土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃、特定區域法等等二十多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限"},{"start":7078.667,"end":7099.534,"text":"我們本來期待原住民族土地使用管制規則能夠通盤的來解決可是非常的遺憾這項規則草案卻因為國土計劃法的修正草案溝通不足難以準時上路我們的族人又要再等六年請問部長針對原鄉長期的困擾現在有什麼具體的解決方案請您簡單的說明然後"},{"start":7107.902,"end":7122.424,"text":"我們請署長最好 部長可以先休息感謝委員 那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法"},{"start":7123.665,"end":7130.389,"text":"這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則"},{"start":7140.414,"end":7159.382,"text":"那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面"},{"start":7160.522,"end":7179.534,"text":"可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫"},{"start":7180.274,"end":7194.935,"text":"有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的"},{"start":7195.376,"end":7208.568,"text":"沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們"},{"start":7220.738,"end":7237.368,"text":"可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了 謝謝劉部長有請"},{"start":7240.543,"end":7254.839,"text":"好 部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程"},{"start":7257.222,"end":7257.922,"text":"新竹縣和台中市的做法值得肯定"},{"start":7277.228,"end":7296.067,"text":"他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍"},{"start":7297.208,"end":7307.876,"text":"第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉有瞭望台有涼亭等等"},{"start":7315.342,"end":7337.12,"text":"也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府它根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展它是非常零星片段的它還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長"},{"start":7342.884,"end":7346.947,"text":"這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法"},{"start":7364.196,"end":7385.55,"text":"並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧"},{"start":7390.931,"end":7415.861,"text":"報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭"},{"start":7416.641,"end":7436.341,"text":"它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考"},{"start":7437.342,"end":7465.275,"text":"然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好 我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土進化法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內 對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎 請問署長可以嗎 我們可以來處理好 謝謝 所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持 謝謝"},{"start":7468.731,"end":7474.394,"text":"好謝謝高清素美委員的諮詢下一位我們請黃婕委員諮詢好謝謝主席我們先請部長"},{"start":7490.74,"end":7512.194,"text":"委員早好 部長早這邊先跟您請教一個最近發生的事情就是昨天您有參加這個世界警消運動會的壽旗典禮對不對是那當然就是每兩年就一次就是世界上非常對於警消單位來說非常重要的一個運動會那我也樂見其實昨天部長到壽旗典禮上面是親自把這個國旗授給代表團的團長那這個團長也是由我們警政署的副署長來代表"},{"start":7520.52,"end":7544.681,"text":"那部長也提到說希望選手可以為國爭光來提高我國的能見度但是呢就有選手來反映說其實因為兩年前的這個代表團出訪的時候有選手他們帶了我國的國旗那前兩年的舉辦是在加拿大那結果呢他帶了國旗被我們警政署要求說要拿掉"},{"start":7545.362,"end":7552.05,"text":"那這是兩年前發生的事情那今年是到了美國那目前我得知說我們代表團還是沒有帶國旗那我們代表團帶的是中華台北的這個奧會的會旗"},{"start":7560.359,"end":7570.304,"text":"那我看到也覺得非常的遺憾我們授旗的時候拿的是國旗那其實過去包括2003年在第10屆2005年11屆2013年15屆2017年第17屆的時候我們在開幕式或者是閉幕式都有舉國旗但是在上一次卻被我們自己的警政署說我們去參加世界警校運動會的時候不要舉我國的國旗"},{"start":7588.613,"end":7601.502,"text":"那我不知道說今年的代表團可不可以部長會支持我們的代表團出席的時候舉國旗嗎報告委員我們能夠參加世界錦囂運動會當然要按照世界錦囂運動會的各項的賽事規則那我們能夠提高我們的國旗能見度當然是盡我們的所能"},{"start":7609.588,"end":7630.736,"text":"而且大家都知道我們所參與的各項國際運動賽事最大的阻礙是在中國所以我們這次還是一樣按照以前的往例就是我們用奧會的會旗但是如果我們有在獎牌上面的頒獎典禮的時候舉國旗並不違法所以事實上我們是會旗跟國旗都有帶"},{"start":7631.736,"end":7641.786,"text":"我想這個很多人可能比較不清楚因為沒有在新聞稿裡面呈現出來也就是說我們會用最大的彈性先來保障我們這些警消運動的選手大概有60位能夠在警消運動會裡面跟70國在將近1萬多位警消的人員互相做這個運動競技之外然後有增加我們的能見度我想所有參賽的選手以及帶團的這個副團長"},{"start":7656.8,"end":7673.971,"text":"她是第一位女性的這個副署長她也都了解這樣的程序所以我想我們一定不會以我們自己要矮化成績啦我們絕對不是以這樣為原則而是我們如何在國際上能夠有能見度第一然後來保障我們中華民國國旗能夠建出於國際媒體的報導那這個我們一定會盡力努力來達成"},{"start":7679.795,"end":7698.448,"text":"好 謝謝部長在這邊的承諾跟提醒因為我也是希望說如果有機會在國際的場合多展現我們的國旗當然就要盡量的提高我國的能見度而不是自我審查 自我矮化不會 因為我們的制服 被章或者能夠看到的部分都會有國旗"},{"start":7699.38,"end":7718.084,"text":"好那這就是尤其是今年是在美國舉辦那大家也知道說其實最近包括美國的移民局就也公告說如果出生國是台灣的話就直接寫台灣就好了不需要去加諸什麼中華或者是中國這樣子多餘甚至是不正確的字眼"},{"start":7718.524,"end":7739.47,"text":"那這個也是美國像是美國最近的眾議院也提了一個美國支持台灣的法案裡面也都直接把中華台北相關的稱呼都取消掉都說應該要改成台灣那既然美國都是這樣子認定我們台灣就是可以直接寫作台灣何必去美國比賽的時候還自我審查多愛化呢報告委員世界行銷運動會不是只有美國一個國家參加它是一個國際性的賽事團體"},{"start":7744.491,"end":7758.787,"text":"所以我們按照國際性的賽事團體以往的這個規矩來處理那當然美國會給我們最大的協助就是我剛剛所說的如果我們中華民國的國旗可以在國際賽事的場合裡面呈現最大的能見度的話我們一定會想辦法達成"},{"start":7760.269,"end":7788.631,"text":"謝謝 謝謝部長的承諾那幫我下一頁我也反映一下因為這個剛剛其實部長也有提到說在團服還有一些代表團裡面的一些旗幟可能都可以出現國旗那這個也是裡面團員有跟我說其實在肩上的這個臂章其實都還是只有中華台北奧會的這樣的一個logo那我也覺得比較可惜如果之後可以的話有機會也盡量把我們國家的意向放上去好 下一頁"},{"start":7790.202,"end":7807.763,"text":"那这个就是2023年的时候发生的事情我也不希望这样的事情再重演好那最后还有一个是也是锦霄运动会就是因为其实今年属为了要实现我们上一次小英总统有说希望我们的选手出赛都可以是全公费的"},{"start":7808.303,"end":7811.565,"text":"那結果呢為了要達成這個全公費的目的反而把裡面的一些選項刪掉了一些比賽項目包括建立包括填進刪除掉那反而讓有一些選手沒有辦法因此而受惠甚至連這一次的出團比賽都沒有辦法"},{"start":7825.916,"end":7841.242,"text":"那我覺得非常的可惜怎麼會有點本末倒置了呢當初小英總統在這個獸獎的時候表揚的時候的用意應該是鼓勵大家參賽不需要還要自費自價那當然是希望說最好是公費公價那"},{"start":7842.502,"end":7862.871,"text":"讓這些選手到國際上可以替台灣來爭光那沒有想到今年這個新制下去反而讓很多原本至少自費都還可以出席的選手連出席的機會都沒有了我希望這個部長可以回去了解這個警政署內部在選拔然後在提供這些比賽的運動項目的時候是不是有這樣的狀況如果有的話拜託下一次如果有機會盡量公平一點"},{"start":7869.414,"end":7889.61,"text":"那我覺得他們是跟我說這次像消防署的心智就改得蠻好的讓大家雨露均沾公費都盡量能補助到那讓這些你看他們這一次60位裡面多數都是消防署派出來的選手那我覺得警政署可能還有改善的空間這個希望部長可以了解好嗎"},{"start":7890.509,"end":7893.752,"text":"好謝謝委員好那最後一點時間因為今天其實要討論這個建築法那我也在這邊來表達一下我其實這幾年收到非常多的澄清案就是裝修蟑螂的事情那我們請署長來回應好了"},{"start":7905.902,"end":7914.37,"text":"因為這個署長可能應該也接收到很多的陳情案之前也都跟國土署有討論過那只是因為其實我知道說建築法裡面相關的規定也算完善可是建這個裝修蟑螂到現在還是非常的猖狂我不知道說署長這邊有沒有更好的方式可以解決包括說很多民眾他們在找這個相關裝修的"},{"start":7929.084,"end":7932.507,"text":"工程行的資訊的時候到底是因為不夠透明或者是你們給的一些合格的名單不夠明確還是怎麼樣常常就是會有民眾疑似被詐騙就是他們找到一些跟你說很低價報價結果後面瘋狂的加價一開始跟你說工期很短結果他們給你收了九成的訂金之後就跑路了然後就把這個錢收了就留一個爛尾"},{"start":7955.345,"end":7963.674,"text":"那像這樣的裝修的蟑螂甚至是說說他是詐騙也不為過可是到之後告上法院詐騙幾乎都不成立因為他們說他們有進場施工"},{"start":7965.478,"end":7975.442,"text":"所以這就是現在法律上的困難那現在的陳情案陳出不窮近十年來大概有一萬三千多件都是這樣子裝修裝壤同樣的樣態真的非常的可惡那我不知道說署長這邊目前有沒有比較好的方式或者是建議如果要修建主法應該要怎麼樣去防範呢"},{"start":7987.008,"end":8001.307,"text":"根本報告啦因為的確因為在室內裝修業來講他有他很明確的職業範圍那現在坊間比較大的一個狀況就是說當然因為這些有辦法而且我們也有合格的這個"},{"start":8002.969,"end":8025.56,"text":"合格業者的名單其實網路上都有那當然一方面大概民眾比較不習慣說不知道說應該要去找合法的業者因為往往這些很多這種四莊蟑螂他這一些部分都是因為他沒有合格的名單他可能有些名氣或在地方上被認為是他裝修比較價格比較合理那比較會低價報"},{"start":8027.401,"end":8044.528,"text":"但是他往往沒有經過合法的程序也沒有合法的設立公司才會有這樣一個財務的部分那所以這些都是實務上的問題他比較不容易透過相關的立法說我一定是怎麼做但是我想這一個部分第一個我們可能會把室內裝修業的這一個"},{"start":8046.308,"end":8066.375,"text":"執行的這個內容會在對外再說明清楚希望大家再透過合法的程序來申請這樣的一個程序第二個我們會來檢視看看在坊間有關的這一些契約內容是不是有違反一些這個疫苗消保的規定我想這一點也是很重要"},{"start":8066.835,"end":8085.882,"text":"因為過去比較多的爭議就在於這一個沒有訂定契約或是契約的內容不明確那這些我想我們也來檢視看看看能不能對地方來講給消保單位給民眾一些比較具體的建議那這樣他在執行上比較有所依據也比較避免在沒有簽訂合理的契約狀況下就蒙受損失我想我們會從這兩點再來做"},{"start":8091.764,"end":8107.957,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託署長喔真的不要再有更多的因為裝修蟑螂導致更多的受害者這樣一次都是兩三百萬可能他一次的積蓄都花在這個被詐騙上面了真的非常的可憐好不好 這個真的要拜託好 謝謝署長好 謝謝黃婕委員報告委員會我們在徐玉珍委員質詢完後休息三分鐘下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢"},{"start":8123.379,"end":8146.161,"text":"辛苦喔 有請署長吳署長有請委員好感謝署長這段時間常常為了高雄地方的建設有我們內政委員會安排考察署長都有到場來協助高雄的一些地方的建設尤其是我的選區左營跟南子的幾項大型的"},{"start":8147.603,"end":8165.721,"text":"包含新台17縣的跟工程會等等的協調也得到行政院的支持但今天我們所安排的是建築法跟平均地權我先表達對於建築法的第77條的修正"},{"start":8166.582,"end":8185.877,"text":"的這些意見那其實高雄市在經過陳忠誠大火之後高雄市政府其實對於所有的這些老舊大樓在三天內對全市34棟以上30年沒有成立管委會的這些大樓都趕快進行了這些公安的稽查"},{"start":8186.838,"end":8201.281,"text":"那所以高雄市是已經經歷了這些那已經有做了這些包含協助成立管委會或者是負責人等等的這些工作那也經過這次大火之後"},{"start":8202.663,"end":8225.28,"text":"由高雄市政府做的這些安檢之後其實普遍超過30年以上大樓對於消防安檢以及要做這些相關改善的接受度頗高大家沒有什麼怨言但是我的選區裡面有一棟有一個社區就是國貿社區非常特殊它到今天它是1985年"},{"start":8227.06,"end":8240.061,"text":"新建到今天已經超過40年了那署長也到現場去看過現場就是可能那時候的瓷磚等等都會有一些脫落的現象但國貿大樓他國貿社區他其實"},{"start":8242.339,"end":8266.219,"text":"不只有他的這個公共空間裡面還有一些私人產權的土地那他還有一個很嚴重的問題沒有辦法解決就是他沒有收管委會他是收清潔費每一戶150塊的清潔費所以其實國貿大樓要去改善國貿社區要去改善這些外牆脫落都有非常大的困難"},{"start":8267.028,"end":8280.698,"text":"那所以其實那天署長包含跟這個高雄市政府其實也對於這個我們都都跟都跟基金整件要有什麼樣的基準等等的都有提出一些建議跟看法啦但是"},{"start":8282.928,"end":8309.942,"text":"來檢視一下我們現在目前整個國土署我們對於老舊公寓大樓整建的補助規範我們把它做了一個檢討從2022年到2024年中央補助六都的案件其實雙北也沒有啦我就講四都就好了,桃園、台中、台南、高雄一共只有12件那我用這個比例來算一下四都如果是280萬戶"},{"start":8313.965,"end":8332.281,"text":"6都一共519萬戶接受中央補助4都12件裡面一共只有778戶所以可以成功來申請的那個比例非常的低那我想這邊再跟署長再進一步的來探討為什麼比例那麼低你看"},{"start":8335.869,"end":8361.362,"text":"光看到第一項,大家就往後退看到第二項,又往後退三步看到第三項,那我不申請好了第一項是什麼,就是說有突出修繕工程這種老大樓,你看國貿,一堆人來拍照然後你就要討論他的鐵窗,再討論他冷氣外露不要了,都不要了,署長,拜託政府單位都不要過來了"},{"start":8362.302,"end":8367.088,"text":"我要跟你申請外強補助你先跟我討論我這些老舊的這些過去的這些現況所以變成我們現在目前可以申請的會有意願來申請的也不多"},{"start":8379.707,"end":8401.657,"text":"那所以在剛剛其實其他委員也有質詢裡面也有希望說我們在這個老化的房子要老屋延壽的這些那其實我們也希望老屋延壽的這個內容也可以把這種特殊案例的這種像國貿社區急需政府來協助這種案例也放進來署長有沒有這個機會"},{"start":8403.7,"end":8419.655,"text":"跟委員報告第一個當然委員所垂詢的這個所謂在一到三項裡面大概尤其是屬於這個違章的部分尤其是比如說鐵窗或這個冷氣突出物這些其實它是佔所謂的比重的問題"},{"start":8421.075,"end":8436.326,"text":"其實我理解因為我之前在台南市政府務的時候大概有遇到類似的問題那所以基本上來講現在實務上的做法是我們是用比例來算它不是一個比例都往下降嘛那我們也實際上看了我們這個補助的狀況實在是真的偏低所以再建議國土署這邊來做一個討論所以這個內容我想我們可以來檢討檢討這樣的內容"},{"start":8447.094,"end":8466.856,"text":"那第二個就是說因為現在的這個老屋延壽的這個部分當時是因為覺得是事半的性質所以大致上會以無電梯公寓的大樓也就大概四到六樓先來事半那因為通常它在結構一律上來講它比較容易達成這個R值45以下的這樣一個標準"},{"start":8467.697,"end":8487.84,"text":"那當然我想就事辦的過程如果是相對上來講成果比較好我想我們後續院裡面如果支持變成一個常態性的公務預算的話我們可以朝這個方向把他一起納進來對我希望其實不只是四到六樓的這些公寓那其實像這個國貿社區他已經超過40年"},{"start":8488.32,"end":8503.272,"text":"他未來一定也會是需要政府進去協助的一個社區啦我們希望提早來面對這個問題那也不要說讓他一直放在那邊沒有辦法解決那最後我想要針對新台17線最後的進度請部長新台17線 新台17線劉部長有請"},{"start":8512.462,"end":8539.627,"text":"謝謝部長在過去的努力劉立偉期間的努力那我們也跟內政部有申請到生活圈道路等等的這一些那在最後關頭那國防部出了一個大招就說他們需要臨時的這個戰備跑道啦那需要幫他代差代鑒幾個那最後由公共工程委員會那跟行政院來報報一個二十幾億的預算那也很感謝卓院長這邊"},{"start":8540.666,"end":8567.617,"text":"知道這一條路的重要性那也補足這先由行政院有協調好國防部先用基金來補足這個包含他們的戰備跑道包含他們的這些代差代件那所以新台17線第二期包含通道借售路這一段都可以開工了是謝謝委員的努力沒有我是接著部長繼續來做這個事情但是部長還是要拜託南段這一邊雖然"},{"start":8568.497,"end":8591.687,"text":"我們的預算有被刪但是我們還是會努力的希望把南段的這個南門圓環相關需要的這些經費我當然希望高雄市政府再精簡一點讓內政部可以讓我們國土署可以把南段一併補齊可以在明年如期的完工是 我們來努力啦我想我們這個署長他都有追蹤這個進度那隨時會跟委員來報告好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":8597.694,"end":8601.135,"text":"好謝謝李博弈委員下一位我們請徐宇貞委員質詢謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請徐議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例"},{"start":8625.151,"end":8648.121,"text":"公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路、經國路、介壽路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換、健保卡要換"},{"start":8648.681,"end":8650.763,"text":"他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們能要這個"},{"start":8665.593,"end":8680.983,"text":"要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有油霧這個系統的更新請問一下部長你目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條"},{"start":8684.49,"end":8710.7,"text":"報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛那既然有349條那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址營業登記跟建物的門牌"},{"start":8711.721,"end":8718.13,"text":"還有這項政策的實施範圍規模跟預估的成本到底要多少 請您具體說明"},{"start":8719.156,"end":8736.67,"text":"是謝謝許委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間"},{"start":8742.734,"end":8744.877,"text":"也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎"},{"start":8757.711,"end":8778.049,"text":"我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年 對不起2022年的時候對不起我這邊不是2022還2223在我們的這個促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理"},{"start":8780.091,"end":8795.03,"text":"好 那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛"},{"start":8795.35,"end":8798.353,"text":"所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說一案十萬請問一下一案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化"},{"start":8812.125,"end":8815.087,"text":"我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的我們是10萬是指移銅像的10萬"},{"start":8830.56,"end":8840.662,"text":"好那現在如果改入名呢改入名的部分的話我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例您聽我說明促轉條例裡面它有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行"},{"start":8855.566,"end":8862.07,"text":"所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路貫的產業戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改"},{"start":8884.383,"end":8892.626,"text":"但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本"},{"start":8911.052,"end":8924.924,"text":"大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調"},{"start":8926.633,"end":8930.736,"text":"好 這是到6月4號為止 就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對 覺得浪費公帑好 那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說 政府不是在安眠錢嗎 話都給你講就好了還有 預算不是被砍了嗎 哪有錢改入名"},{"start":8949.77,"end":8953.555,"text":"真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好 你可以看到網友的心聲"},{"start":8967.074,"end":8970.356,"text":"那也有縣市長也表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好"},{"start":8988.089,"end":8993.092,"text":"那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的立場這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府"},{"start":9008.661,"end":9012.403,"text":"所以呢,我覺得你應該要建議我們賴清德總統,搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點,不要柿子敲軟的吃,就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外,你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改,事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個"},{"start":9032.414,"end":9046.001,"text":"這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴"},{"start":9058.068,"end":9086.357,"text":"開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那路民的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改路民"},{"start":9087.268,"end":9107.48,"text":"報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改良我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說"},{"start":9108.28,"end":9117.447,"text":"好 我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是 五個部會一起好 那內政部有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署是會打詐疑表板"},{"start":9123.991,"end":9138.007,"text":"是 我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報上去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐"},{"start":9138.868,"end":9153.562,"text":"不是通報率的提高破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都拐殺的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中謝謝立法院通過防詐的四個條例金額跟人數沒有下降喔是一直在上升喔沒有可是我們詐騙的這個問題其實都沒有"},{"start":9156.044,"end":9158.166,"text":"我們應該繼續努力,謝謝他是外交替代役,所以是屬於內政部嗎?"},{"start":9177.943,"end":9206.544,"text":"他替代役的藝男但是外交替代役當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關內政部的問題是嗎我們會一起負責對那你們要一起負責嘛是所以謝謝您的指教這是我們應該討論的也可以需要檢討的空間對那請問一下當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪"},{"start":9207.683,"end":9221.11,"text":"所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的紀錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪"},{"start":9231.596,"end":9233.619,"text":"我覺得我們內部部門我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是藝人管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對 但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有"},{"start":9247.697,"end":9267.083,"text":"那但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在尤其警政署在試毒方面的其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入那我們從歷年來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的這個改善我相信"},{"start":9267.403,"end":9283.976,"text":"但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好是 因為目前統計出來大概還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這部分管詐騙或硬爛的管理喔當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要與眾欣賞的跟部長講一下"},{"start":9287.318,"end":9302.889,"text":"如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型正義報告委員轉型正義它本來就是24小時就處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好"},{"start":9317.239,"end":9321.323,"text":"這不是大部分民眾的想法,我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項,謝謝"},{"start":9360.213,"end":9360.233,"text":"這個 這個是誰"},{"start":9615.504,"end":9617.286,"text":"好 我們請牛許廷委員謝主席吳署長有請請吳主帥吳委員好 署長早安"},{"start":9632.731,"end":9651.716,"text":"這我們去提平均地權條例第25條的這個修正那當然原因是這樣嘛就是說為了達到地淨其利這樣子的一個宗旨其實都有規定就是說促進公益的土地其實應該是可以減免地價稅的那行政院可以根據平均地權條例或者土地稅法再去制定土地稅的這樣一個相關的減免規則嘛"},{"start":9654.017,"end":9678.406,"text":"現在現行的狀況是基本上給予無償公眾通行的道路就可以免徵地價稅但是公眾通行的法定空地則予以排除我們今天去談這個問題的原因是這樣地價稅基本上來講是針對土地它可以帶來的收益跟量能來進行課稅可是這個土地如果因為客觀上的法令限制而使"},{"start":9679.366,"end":9706.465,"text":"其喪失喔 叫做使用財產之獲益的可能性時那基本上課徵財產稅的這樣子的一個正當性其實就應該消失嘛所以他當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免嘛那現在關鍵就是說不管他的名義是什麼基本上他只要有無償公公眾通行這樣子的一個這樣子的一個現況基本上他就是不公特定人使用而且具無償性其實就已經達成所謂的遞進其利嘛既然他達成所謂遞進其利的概念你再來再去課稅他其實就開始會有為"},{"start":9707.646,"end":9734.263,"text":"我認為有違租稅公平的原則所以我們提這案子是希望在這討論的過程中我們如何來達成更細緻的一個規定所以接下來我們就討論一下這個相關的部分要來怎麼樣來做設定現在的狀況是這樣啦無償公眾通行的道路用地經查明屬實者使用期間內地價稅或填付全免嘛對不對但其建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分不予免徵對不對那比如說7樓走廊"},{"start":9735.444,"end":9755.617,"text":"他其實就免徵那如果蓋建築蓋比較高就是變成部分減徵嘛就有一些這樣子的一個這樣子的一個機制的一個設定嘛那我想先跟國土署這邊來做一下討論然後我待會跟財政部做一下討論就是說如果我們現在要讓他符合一次性跟公平性的話除了修法你能講修法因為我看到你們的這個"},{"start":9757.734,"end":9776.531,"text":"書面報告講說修法不建議修法那如果不建議修法用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的一個問題也就是說這個開放空間或者是道路用供公眾通行的道路你可以免徵地價稅但是法定空地你同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅這同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決"},{"start":9781.536,"end":9809.504,"text":"跟委員報告啦因為其實就法控也好開放空間也好在就整個建築來講它其實有相對的一個權利也有相對的義務所謂的權利它因為流射了這一個法控或開放空間它相對應會得到一些獎勵所以就法律的對等關係來講它是本來就有對等的關係存在所以就一般來講它不存在額外的"},{"start":9810.057,"end":9831.269,"text":"所謂的這一個值得去減稅的這樣的一個平等原則我想站在一個平等原則是這樣的概念但是在土地減免規則裡 地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定 譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動"},{"start":9832.069,"end":9847.407,"text":"他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據"},{"start":9848.328,"end":9871.751,"text":"具有實質上的公益性的項目,他去訂定相關,再依據這個地價稅減免規則,還有評定條例的規定,他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目,去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦。好,你講了兩個重點嘛,第一個就是說,法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的,但是我們今天談的重點,倒不是說法定空地,因為你空地你有獎勵措施,那是一回事。"},{"start":9872.091,"end":9901.683,"text":"但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的層次是這樣好 但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性"},{"start":9902.124,"end":9905.854,"text":"我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們"},{"start":9909.065,"end":9933.727,"text":"那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明"},{"start":9935.208,"end":9958.435,"text":"好 這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公義性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊"},{"start":9959.318,"end":9969.058,"text":"所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則"},{"start":9971.181,"end":9996.811,"text":"說明一下喔 剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港所謂的不是 我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛 對不對開放空間就更明確因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛"},{"start":9998.852,"end":10023.571,"text":"所以你有相對在法律上 相對的權利與關係我的意思是講 不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講 他不是只是 他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講 我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公義性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇 或者也許是稅務的減徵 或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論 給你去做思考 好 這第一個 好"},{"start":10023.951,"end":10028.594,"text":"那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的"},{"start":10040.399,"end":10067.731,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計畫法那個台灣省市集計的32條規定是用住宅區間別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的間別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用"},{"start":10069.48,"end":10079.184,"text":"沒有辦法做這個切割只是用一個推估的方法對嘛即使你用最低的10%好了也將近佔了30億那這個30億的話它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估"},{"start":10087.748,"end":10102.187,"text":"你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算"},{"start":10103.949,"end":10122.125,"text":"這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了造成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得"},{"start":10123.946,"end":10151.584,"text":"對 提案委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以"},{"start":10151.944,"end":10158.828,"text":"但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些市社道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法令已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念"},{"start":10177.679,"end":10192.706,"text":"他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法定控例他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充"},{"start":10203.891,"end":10233.03,"text":"所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是個優化這樣的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間"},{"start":10235.172,"end":10252.61,"text":"來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間 因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產業 可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少"},{"start":10255.3,"end":10265.963,"text":"這個要三個月三個月好不好沒關係我覺得OK因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的設算國土署那我們也三個月好不好"},{"start":10268.364,"end":10287.075,"text":"那個部分的話我們在因為還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署、地政司、財政部我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個也許做個延殺我贊成國土署這樣講如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考我覺得也很好就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在好不好"},{"start":10287.495,"end":10303.977,"text":"那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分這個你需要多少時間在做細緻溝通"},{"start":10305.459,"end":10326.173,"text":"呃 市長也給我們三個月 因為有很多是罰款的 罰單的問題喔 的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子 差距太大我 我 組長 這個你就 這個平均地的兩頁只有本席提案 所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案啦 我是覺得三個月好像太久啦這個要不要短一點我還是建議 因為喔 因為"},{"start":10327.452,"end":10339.765,"text":"案件太多了就尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦"},{"start":10340.404,"end":10361.121,"text":"你還是要跟你講 但我是覺得三個月太短 那個啦 太久了啦這樣子好了啦 我給你一個月的時間先做初步的研商 然後一個月之後我會來你再來跟本席聊 因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委 我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有 我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說在政府那個除外啦 就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛 對不對"},{"start":10361.781,"end":10377.826,"text":"但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多我們大概會把更好的案子的延商結果就初步的延商的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延商建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷召委接下來請吳啟明委員"},{"start":10390.066,"end":10397.071,"text":"好 主席 議會同仁 請我們國土署署長讓部長休息一下吳市長有請委員好好 署長市長今天我們大家在討論建築法的修正草案其實我們現在大家關心的就是整個建築結構的安全性"},{"start":10414.966,"end":10430.036,"text":"尤其我們台灣是在我們的地層帶上面所以我們光是本市在這邊的資料我們的全國有500戶的超過30年那超過30年在新北市遇到"},{"start":10432.525,"end":10457.047,"text":"前幾天海沙屋的問題包含三重海沙屋天花板都掉下來還傷了小朋友所以說我們針對海沙屋來做討論海沙屋為什麼要整個整棟的海沙屋要重建會那麼慢速度搭配合度也不是那麼高"},{"start":10458.368,"end":10481.932,"text":"因為問題出在哪裡,就是我們要找出這個問題其實海沙湖的問題要怎麼解決,很多它大地下已經都枯了但是你枯,你說,說大家要參加整個都建也好,整個重建也好其實他們都樂意,但是問題出在說,他們在這段期間要怎麼來解決,他們大的問題"},{"start":10487.185,"end":10516.58,"text":"所以他們大的問題,現在我們的中央政府在大力的推動我們的社宅我們社宅,是不是說在它那個附近,我們社宅第一件好了是不是說他們在海沙屋要怎麼讓他們可以在他們的條件可以放寬畢竟他們去好,他們就搬回來了嘛所以這樣才可以去改觀說,他們要整個來參加整個都更也好"},{"start":10517.837,"end":10532.128,"text":"整個推動的速度我認為這樣才可以先去改觀他們大問題對於它的容積要怎麼提升因為海沙屋在前果都有光是我們整個港三重那些媒體在報導"},{"start":10533.513,"end":10547.692,"text":"包含在本市的轄區土層會被移動是海沙屋所以說海沙屋大家面臨著說要搬 要參與都更搭住的問題"},{"start":10548.959,"end":10572.479,"text":"然後你農機要怎樣來提升讓他們不用再去負擔那麼龐大的金額這是這裡可以改觀啦不然你說政府要推動他說全國我們真的都更的速度還是非常的慢啦所以市長你要先提供這個問題我們要怎麼改觀請新北市請全國各縣市大家來開會就是要共同討論讓大家請出問題"},{"start":10576.682,"end":10583.467,"text":"可以謹慎說 他們住在那裡 他們的負擔的問題 他們住在的問題我們要去想辦法來替他們解套 這才有辦法來推動好像沒辦法替他們解套 當然啊 你說一棟裡面不是說每個人想法都一樣啊 起碼都有幾個他們不同意不同意的問題在哪裡 是不是說這個部分是對的"},{"start":10602.526,"end":10621.097,"text":"感謝委員 其實這個都更的過程中 所謂的中紀有的這個概念在過去都有提出 但是跟社宅搭配是一個不錯的理念但是重點的處理說 它是最終的時間點很難搭配在一起 與我們社宅一組是組三檔"},{"start":10622.958,"end":10629.805,"text":"所以你回到你決定當時要貼的時候,當時的租金不一定有大量可以出租的社債,社債也不可能放在那裡等待所以這是事務上一個比較大的問題,所以說我們剛才是一個中間的規定,當時它可以搬出來,要搬出來"},{"start":10643.678,"end":10650.705,"text":"這時間點跟社宅在出租的時間點,往往是對不起來的,我們不可能把社宅調過去空起來放在那裡都沒有租,我們來做,我想這十五項,這都不經過跟地方,這十五項比較有一個困難,第二點就是說"},{"start":10661.956,"end":10683.24,"text":"這個租金的成本就是我處理,我沒有大小財,我處理多好租租金的成本,我們在這個都更的成本裡面就已經有納入了本來就已經同意這次有納入,它是成本那所以在這個成本上,一般來講可以省一天啦對於這個健康來講,這應該就要省一天所以這是,當然過去的情形就是說經常去說就是,我差不多安省這個工廠是適當"},{"start":10691.622,"end":10699.914,"text":"結果我實際在操作的時候,有可能拖過,還要再延伸一些情緒,同時簽的是簽4年而已,4年過你要自己負擔,所以這是一個開始需要檢討的,第三就是海鯊魚的容積本來就不錯,"},{"start":10708.065,"end":10731.504,"text":"它本來我們的獎勵就是直接圓融1.3我就直接給你啦都不用再去檢查做什麼所以就現實來講的話海沙屋現在在過程中協調是中的過程中最困難的原因就是說很多海沙屋它不是整棟都海沙屋因為大家都知道你如果對我這個家裡如果海沙屋我的天房如果是海沙屋的時候那些綠光綠光給你有沒有那麼大"},{"start":10733.826,"end":10753.201,"text":"但是不是整棟都這樣,最怕有的沒中,有的中,有的沒中,他們的心態是比較不公平所以這也是我們過去是不太適合,最困難的就是兩個住戶的心情感受不公平所以對於都更的急迫性有時候是不太一樣的"},{"start":10754.222,"end":10775.787,"text":"所以這地方政府在協調規定是比較辛苦但是通過這個簡化的過程針對海沙屋我們現在已經做得很放寬因為申請元榮1.3它是直接就通過了所以我們要讓委員了解這個規定因為我們收到的就是因為不是全面性的海沙屋就是一萬戶一萬戶我們做很多沒中的"},{"start":10779.168,"end":10793.778,"text":"他們的意願都不高,所以說整個都要推動,都是有困難本身土生,土生在我們海山捷運站出來也有一棟海砂屋,也是一樣一樣面臨這個問題但是這個問題你總是要來想辦法來改觀"},{"start":10797.521,"end":10808.593,"text":"所以說 現在我們的老舊房子 全國五百戶 新北就佔了一百五十戶五百萬跟一百五十萬對 一百五十萬戶 因為過去工藝性的一種的結果體"},{"start":10817.803,"end":10837.203,"text":"絕對跟大樓絕對不一樣你如果說地震來這種的我們的工藝性的這種的房子是非常非常所以說你剛才說速度要快你說修繕的三年再編了我們去年又編了五十億但是修繕的 修繕對海沙屋比較沒辦法對啊 結構就是"},{"start":10839.861,"end":10854.132,"text":"他們幫助不大啦 這是一整棵啊所以我們要怎麼推動這個速度會比較快未來第一天我們可以檢討這個損失這是應該我們地方政府要來檢討的不然你說如果事情再發生的時候再來檢討這樣已經太晚了是 這我們會再來找地方政府電機開好的時候再來研究看他們針對這個海沙烏的這個看還有什麼新的建議可以來加速啦"},{"start":10867.662,"end":10872.104,"text":"這部分我們繼續來探討因為你過去的地方你沒有去設定說海鯊魚還是說麵糧要減肥的要切除的在這個條件我們是不是把它納入進去讓它未來再多重選擇"},{"start":10887.233,"end":10899.355,"text":"我瞭解 我可能就是未來看電影政府來建議啦 就是說有一些招租的條件裡面啦不過重點就是我們兩個的時間要對得到啦時間要對得到也是我的主意瞭解 這我們來看電影政府再來討論一下好 謝謝好 謝謝吳清明委員報告委員會 我們現在處理臨時提案請宣布"},{"start":10918.999,"end":10945.087,"text":"有鉴于过去原乡地区土地新与建筑相关法规规划与执行方式过于粗糙与武断致使当地族人之居住安全与空间使用权益长期受损期需改善建筑法第99条之一虽明定都市计划以外地区或偏远地区建筑物得予简化管理并授权地方政府拟定简化管理办法报请内政部核定为实务上部分现实气味定定办法或仅形式应对难以实质回应原乡实际需要"},{"start":10945.507,"end":10974.117,"text":"为加速解决原乡长期以来的居住问题原请贵部于一个月内研议办理下列事项必力全面提升地方政府简化制度规划与执行效能以紧速定定通案性指导原则协助并督促各县市依法定定简化管理办法并提供必要之技术指导而整理现行各地建筑简化办法内容进行汇整对照作为地方参照依据亦可具以弹性因应原乡特殊情况提案人为高金素梅等八人宣读完毕"},{"start":10978.204,"end":10983.127,"text":"請問委員會對於臨時提案的內容有異議沒有我們照案通過 謝謝"},{"start":11000.942,"end":11017.007,"text":"對啦,我想委員不會反對啦,因為好多部會啦,所以內政部不要寫貴部那再來就是縣市要寫縣市政府,這樣比較明點,沒有其他的問題,因為文字已經修正,委員看過了好,我們把這個第三段嘛對不對OK"},{"start":11026.528,"end":11026.988,"text":"這四個地方嗎?"},{"start":11054.1,"end":11078.742,"text":"好說明一下這第二段第三行部分縣市我把它加兩個字叫改成部分縣市政府第三段第一行貴部改成內政部第三段第三行這個後面督促各縣市加一樣加縣市政府然後第三段倒數第二行一樣作為地方政府參照依據為以上文字修正請問委員會有沒有問題好我們就照文字照修正通過謝謝"},{"start":11081.397,"end":11091.325,"text":"好 報告委員會我們繼續進行詢問下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢主席 各位委員有請署長吳署長有請委員好署長好"},{"start":11111.675,"end":11139.211,"text":"這個建築法第99條之一的條文是在73年民國73年11月7號就公布施行後來是因應配合精神在89年12月20號修正配合精神把這個省政府改為由縣政府擬定報請列正不核定"},{"start":11139.775,"end":11161.428,"text":"就是說實施都市計劃以外地區或偏遠地區建築物資管理得以簡化不是用本法前部或一部之規定其建築管理辦法得由縣政府擬定報請列政部核定制請問一下這個剛才講了這個已經70幾年73年到現在這個"},{"start":11169.395,"end":11196.868,"text":"如果我們從89年到現在也很久了這個目前地方政府有哪些有訂這些這個辦法針對都市計劃以外第7號偏遠的第7號尤其是針對偏遠第7號就是他如果已經有確定做訂出相關的辦法的話是有6個那其他的都是屬於零星的這個修訂所以哪6個縣政府我現在詳細的"},{"start":11198.581,"end":11210.185,"text":"我知道花蓮、新竹、台中我印象至少這三個是我目前台灣確定這三個是有那另外詳細的苗栗也有苗栗也有苗栗對台東呢台東有"},{"start":11227.405,"end":11254.396,"text":"嘉義花蓮屏東呢屏東是屏東沒有屏東他是個別他不是訂整套的什麼叫個別就是他只是自己在審查在那個自治條例裡面自己有加幾條這樣而已他不是單獨訂不是單獨訂對對對那有這個自治條例裡面他就可以跟其他地方政府已經訂的"},{"start":11255.563,"end":11274.888,"text":"他的那個落差差距差距還蠻大像我們知道是新竹台中算是訂的比較完整他有針對各種樣態去訂那其他的都可能就是有問題他再放沒有出現過問題他就沒有再放"},{"start":11275.573,"end":11297.055,"text":"所以這個部分,當然今天有修正條文的提案,你們初步的意見是不希望做出我們是希望把好的這些案例,他們地方有自己訂出來的我們提供給所有的縣市,然後請他們依據這樣的一個內容"},{"start":11298.737,"end":11327.915,"text":"那各自因為也有一些因地制宜性像原住民地區有些是在山區那有些是在海邊那其實他要適用的內容其實就不太一樣那所以我們是希望他能夠我們都把比較完整的東西拿出來那希望各縣市政府來參照這樣的方式來訂那再依據自己的需要自己去取決這樣事實上是這樣這個你知道我等一下也會繼續談過去一直還沒有完成的部分"},{"start":11330.3,"end":11348.295,"text":"確實有需要啦只不過是因為這個地方政府有時候沒有去考慮到這個實際的問題然後有這樣的一個法律的授權然後他並沒有做很好的一個處理所以要請這個"},{"start":11350.868,"end":11378.25,"text":"當然我們未來這個條文還會再討論應該要怎麼去修正才會是最好的部分所以這個部分在這段時間剛才有這個也有提到這個一個月也能夠做把這樣的一個資料各縣市政府目前已經訂了他的這個有什麼樣的相同的或是不同的能夠做一個"},{"start":11379.893,"end":11406.677,"text":"給我們做審查這個條文的時候的一個參考好 可以嗎我們當然是希望透過授權啦因為授權地方的因地質疑性會比較好那所以我們現在大原則上是說我們盡可能是鼓勵地方政府有完整的東西去談那至於母法上我們還是保持它原來的談心就可以對 我們在因為畢竟要審查嘛所以我們也要希望需要了解"},{"start":11407.472,"end":11429.704,"text":"目前已經有定的縣市政府他的條文然後的差異如何好不好做一個做一個整理好好好另外就是也提了很多次了這個當然你等一下會說因為國土計劃法又延長了但是還是要去解決"},{"start":11434.104,"end":11455.5,"text":"鹽鄉鹽鄉這些部落這些土地然後竟然不能蓋房子而這個都會區的山坡地在都會區啊基隆啊新北啊這些都會區的山坡地比我們在鹽鄉部落的還陡他們竟然可以蓋大樓我們連蓋這個"},{"start":11459.383,"end":11486.571,"text":"一般的建築都不行了都會他是因為他是林業用地或是其他的用地這個部分畢竟還是要去解決而且解決的方式我們共同的去思考怎麼樣原住民的部落先行在國土計劃法裡面怎麼樣有沒有可能解釋的空間如果沒有解釋空間"},{"start":11487.694,"end":11500.881,"text":"那怎么样去修这家一条的条纹呢还是怎么样去先解决啊好不容易这个言明会跟内政部都已经有一个很好的一个方向吗啊对不对啊好不好"},{"start":11502.492,"end":11524.846,"text":"也跟委員報告啦,就是我們其實還在持續的精進那一個內容啦就是在圖館的部分還在持續精進,那具體的做法我們會持續精進我們希望是說到時候推出來是一個更完整的東西當然包含最近如果說按照這一個在偏遠地區的這樣的一個這個地方的辦法如果出來,我想我們也會內部再跟國土組這邊去討論"},{"start":11528.088,"end":11536.614,"text":"就看看這有沒有可以參考的一個依據那併同圖館 兩個都一起來檢討看看這我們可以再來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢下一位我們請顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在好 最後我們請徐欣怡委員質詢"},{"start":11565.38,"end":11568.301,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長我們在討論建築法之前我想本席也要跟您討論一下 就是有關最近您"},{"start":11584.895,"end":11610.757,"text":"引起的這個中正路改名的爭議如果我沒有聽錯的話前面好像有些委員在質詢的時候那您這個中正路的改名好像是說是依據轉型正義條例是不是是清除威權象徵是法定義務在我們的促進轉型正義條例的第五條跟第十一條之二裡面有規定"},{"start":11611.787,"end":11634.912,"text":"对是依据这个嘛是对所以我们了解这个很多事情您是有所依据的那但是如果您说这个是法定义务这个是法定义务它是这个条例有规定跟法定义务好像不完全等号吧没有报告委员它是法定义务在11条之2里面11条之2"},{"start":11636.392,"end":11660.171,"text":"是他寫得非常清楚他就直接點名在促展會結束他的部分的這個階段性任務之後那有關於跟地方制度相關的包括道路的這個命名等等的就是由內政部來負責對啊內政部負責但是是有法律有規範跟他是法定義務不一樣吧"},{"start":11661.417,"end":11689.095,"text":"所以它不見得是法定義務因為我跟你講如果是法定義務的話我請問你這個法定任務對是任務不是義務任務跟義務真的不一樣好所以是法定義務那任務所以那本席就要來繼續往下就是說那既然它是一個任務所以您要來做其實法律有規定我們也支持也應該要這樣做謝謝委員但是你要做的這個過程"},{"start":11690.876,"end":11707.77,"text":"你有先去了解這個做下去你怎麼樣完善嗎還是你引起這個整個人民的生活包含地方政府的這個大混亂你有去了解嗎報告委員我想是這樣子第一個"},{"start":11709.01,"end":11729.366,"text":"促轉條例在十一條之二通過的時候已經是目前為止應該是兩年前跟三年前的事情所以當時這樣規範下來的話那內政部呢已經先做了一部分的處理這個一部分的處理就是我們在以前有報告他整一個的這個數據裡面提供參考就是說比較簡易的部分"},{"start":11735.37,"end":11759.704,"text":"數項 標項或者是這個部分能夠移除的就先移除那我所了解移除最多的很多人都是把數項移到桃園大溪你現在在執行的路名那路的部分呢在我們委託南台科技大學裡面他有提到這是第四個模式那第四個模式裡面呢剛剛我有跟部分委員報告過目前為止我們統計出來大概會有300多件好 沒關係我現在要了解的是說"},{"start":11760.524,"end":11777.127,"text":"他執行就是我們要做一件事所有不管是地方政府中央政府我們大概都會預判嘛你怎麼做才會完善而且你很多東西你要預估你怎麼樣這樣下去不是突然間造成很大的混亂又達不成嘛"},{"start":11777.868,"end":11797.928,"text":"是 我了解委員的用意 所以我有提到到目前為止 有在進行更改入名的 您知道有沒有成功的案例凱達格蘭大道對 只有凱達格蘭大道 我們大家知道 因為它牽扯著住戶啊 還有"},{"start":11798.888,"end":11813.919,"text":"有用到凱達格蘭大道的身份證或人民生活太少了嘛凱達格蘭大道真的我這點本席也就本席的了解也是他最成功那現在你要求各縣市政府去進行有沒有"},{"start":11815.58,"end":11833.98,"text":"報告委員我們不敢要求我特別提到說中央政府要跟地方政府要溝通那你是由上而上還是由上而下按照地方制度法是由下而上對嘛由下而上那一定是地方有共識他才會做嘛是不是那現在如果地方沒共識你會硬推嗎"},{"start":11834.861,"end":11849.56,"text":"我沒有第一個我第一個沒有法則然後第二個我剛剛有提到轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義社會溝通那我剛剛有特別提到說如果造成對立就表示說我們的溝通不是很完整"},{"start":11850.3,"end":11866.828,"text":"對 或者是實施的不完整才會造成一些實施要看各地方政府因為很多地方政府他們的街道改名的機制有他們的自治準則一定要溝通完整嘛社會有共識而且由下而上目前有"},{"start":11867.368,"end":11892.109,"text":"任何一个区域有符合这样的情况吗我刚刚有跟委员报告过你说台南是吗现在我知道的台南那其实更早台南OK那就这样台南嘛你答案就是台南嘛是那更早以前在台南实施的情况你有了解吗台南实施下去台南的部分的话他们也是天怒人怨而且好像做到现在做在2022年开始做到现在"},{"start":11892.87,"end":11912.622,"text":"他做了170公尺之後他就很難往下黃偉哲市長他特別說接下來他要以衝擊最小爭議最少的區域來優先逐步推動不求一次到位他是希望達成這個目標但是呢"},{"start":11913.382,"end":11936.268,"text":"他也發現說不容易而且現在整個的戶政還有整個的地圖系統各方面整個混亂啦民眾生活整個被受不受影響我們還沒有改怎麼會有混亂呢有心要推動那慢慢來推動然後有共識這是我們基本的想法所以我剛剛有特別提到你程序正義上一定要合法合規那轉型正義條例已經有"},{"start":11938.809,"end":11940.992,"text":"你絕對不會強制社會溝通不要產生政黨之間的對立現在就是不要造成民怨還有民眾的困擾"},{"start":11954.886,"end":11978.714,"text":"我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡第一個轉型正義條例已經是2017年從第八第九屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論而且他已經是成案我現在講的是執行面執行面所以現在你入民更改難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎"},{"start":11980.209,"end":12006.7,"text":"我沒有問你我只是你心裡想一下所以我不用回答對這個影響到人民生活非常多那已經有實施的台南市他都發現哇不行緩下來那所以我還是認同但是他沒有停止啊他是緩步推動緩步推動能夠有社會共識所以我非常了解所以你認同嘛對台南市我還沒有請你回答所以我才說我們是協助地方政府我沒有說一步到位啊"},{"start":12007.881,"end":12030.718,"text":"所以我們現在是在討論所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識然後才能進行但是如果強推的結果就是造成台南他自己有感受到真的不好推更重要我要講的是我們做任何事你的各方面的完善"},{"start":12031.559,"end":12053.313,"text":"那包含剛剛也很多人提到我想你的經費你大概也要預估一下我的時間的關係我就不跟你再往下你經費如果你真的全國要推你的經費有沒有到位你自己要去這個衡量再來就是報告委員他是用基金預算你那個基金對我有看一下你知道你那個基金現在有多少錢嗎"},{"start":12054.153,"end":12071.818,"text":"你知道嗎基金預算不是說有多少錢基金預算就是說你本與你的任務需求在申請的時候基金就有這個一個他的一個審查文會然後他會在編列的時候把它放進去你是不是用促轉基金是那是國發會國發會主管的對促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":12072.95,"end":12088.654,"text":"那是國發會的不是說有多少錢不是他不是用他不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行你基金需要多少錢他會再撥進去跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的就本席了解他那個基金好像是從好像國民黨那個黨產弄過來的"},{"start":12090.854,"end":12113.102,"text":"妳確定是撥補的嗎在促短條例裡面是這樣的沒有錯而且我所了解是有經費但是經費有多少我還需要細查報尾所以那這樣好了 會後請你提供你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告說總共全國如果要改中正路有多少條然後那你估一下要多少錢 你會後"},{"start":12114.082,"end":12132.067,"text":"孤兒一下要多少錢 全國整個下去要多少錢你再提供給我們我相信你現在說不出來 要多少錢因為這是要地方政府報上來不是由我們去幫他預估因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾那以前的台中市在處理台灣大道的時候他們所用的經費是幾百萬"},{"start":12134.308,"end":12161.934,"text":"好現在如果說中正路要改名我問你那台北市中正區還有像那個中正國小中正大學中正高中甚至如果說經國路也要改的話經國管理學院我們中正一分局甚至經國號戰機是不是要改所以除了好像不只內政部那這樣教育部國防部這個都要改吧"},{"start":12162.853,"end":12164.358,"text":"是不是都要進行改名"},{"start":12165.669,"end":12193.27,"text":"是 但是我現在在內政部所以我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務我來處理了所以最後針對這個部分我想我一個結論就是說希望內政部不要不管食物報告委內政部的事情真的是非常的多而雜不是完全噁心殺或者吃飽沒事幹的中正堂改名你應該沒有社會共識吧你應該就是下命令吧中正堂"},{"start":12197.728,"end":12226.106,"text":"中正堂改名哪裏的中正堂不是中正紀念堂沒有沒有我們只有處理那個街道那個巷弄啊這個是沒有沒有如果地方有中正兩個字的我跟你講我的選區裏面他有一個活動中心叫中正堂他們就反應不勝其擾啊你們每年都公文去然後他們呢老實講地方沒共識他還是得回你嘛公務單位所以他就他就"},{"start":12227.526,"end":12246.839,"text":"有一點呼嚨的草率也回應了所以這一塊如果這個要有共識的那我想你這個他們到現在沒動但你內政部函詢已經很多次而且要求他每年的進度要回報這個公文好了所以我只是"},{"start":12248.821,"end":12258.997,"text":"強調我們做任何事真的我們支持但是合法合理之外還要顧及我們民眾的感受不好意思最後這個建築法我問簡單兩個問題一個就是我們"},{"start":12263.223,"end":12287.11,"text":"建築法56條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度那內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府了那可是我們看到整個全國近五年整個零損的案例非常非常的多你授權地方政府你授權地方政府但實際上"},{"start":12288.61,"end":12299.682,"text":"好像為什麼不我們中央來統一我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話那我們整個把它規範好為什麼不做"},{"start":12300.765,"end":12325.687,"text":"原因是什麼根文報告啦 因為其實這樣的條文在簡單來講就是說 過去107年曾經討論過但是其實當時就引發非常多爭議就是在所謂的第三方勘驗的一個執行單位到底是建築師 土木技師 結構技師那是在什麼樣的程度下去介入那後來因為各個工會的見解也不一"},{"start":12326.247,"end":12340.06,"text":"那地方政府的見解不一所以後來大家才同意說不要放在母法而是授權地方政府依實務看看哪個階段需要是哪個工會是哪些單位去做那這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務而不要強制在56條直接去加當時的概念是這樣"},{"start":12345.785,"end":12360.677,"text":"不是在實務你還是可以在法條中依據實務給他一個應該這麼說因為這樣反而給地方政府他比較有實際上的權限因為地方政府他本來就有這樣的一個狀況現在地方政府的話產生的問題很大吧"},{"start":12363.439,"end":12388.333,"text":"公文報告很多所謂的臨損它其實是過程中而不是在勘驗階段的成果所以勘驗是指它過程的結果其實更大的爭議就是說對於建築的建設公司要求完善這一塊我們中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令因為其實這個發生在各縣市都很多的問題"},{"start":12389.624,"end":12416.834,"text":"包含天坑各方面的事件也跟我們報告啦因為其實過程當中的問題是最難去處理就是說因為譬如說像我們沒關係啦那我們這樣我們討論法條的時候再來最後最後一題啦現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整沒有人力也是空談我們發現我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多但報道率都大概"},{"start":12417.614,"end":12420.256,"text":"不到三分之一這個問題凸顯什麼問題也跟我們報告啦其實它有很多面向的問題啦現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題建築實務上來講就是說民間的待遇可能都比比較高這也是一個問題"},{"start":12437.15,"end":12443.935,"text":"那部長有沒有可能這個待遇有沒有可能公務人員都一致在工程會跟人事總署在上個月有開會我們也有表達一些意見就是說對於這一個專業的加級然後對於這一個職等的調升或者是對於相關月聘僱人員勞務承攬人員的一個待遇的提升我們都有提供一些建議給"},{"start":12464.73,"end":12491.55,"text":"給這個人總跟這個工程會你剛剛講了一堆但是現在我們的公務人員而且是專業的那我們需求的是正式的缺額的我都補不足了所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急不然你一次全部要他當然不會答應我們也有包含所謂剛剛講的月聘僱人員因為有些地方政府他會需要用到月聘僱人員那甚至有些是勞務承攬人員我想我們這都有提供一些建議了好"},{"start":12493.992,"end":12501.96,"text":"但是我們絕對不要還是要繼續爭取啦不然你這樣問題還是很大沒錯 這個我們還是會持續去爭取的好 謝謝委員好 謝謝徐信偉人"},{"start":12507.099,"end":12528.66,"text":"報告委員會登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢我們詢答結束丁薛忠委員所提書面質詢我們列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會第四我們討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束先來散會"}]}},{"id":"16731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16731","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc49a83869710b50b7ad9f551ce5fa921ffdab1a38f0d348c0ee49674e148d9fc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-04T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T13:24:00+08:00","duration":17625,"影片長度":"04:53:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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呂健德政次其餘未及介紹列席代表請參與名單不在主意介紹並列入公報記錄本日會議議程分別排定進行專"},{"start":1878.484,"end":1904.701,"text":"提報告並備諮詢及並案審查委員賴氏寶等20人凝聚中華民國刑法第286條修正草案等11案會議程序依例先進行提案說明及報告現在進行委員提案說明每位發言時間3分鐘請問有沒有哪位委員要進行提案說明是好所以"},{"start":1907.638,"end":1919.467,"text":"那個王宏威委員先簽到的那就先請王委員好那再麻煩王委員一併代表說明國民黨的黨團提案"},{"start":1928.13,"end":1947.037,"text":"謝謝主席我們各位委員及與會的官員我們都知道在凱凱案被虐死之後在社會其實引發了非常非常多的關注那麼依據衛生福利部保護服務司公佈的兒少保護統計"},{"start":1948.337,"end":1956.864,"text":"在2019年到2023年我國兒少受虐的合計人數從11113人增加到12646人增幅13.8%其中未滿6歲受虐人數從2244人增加到2868人增加的幅度更高達27.8%顯示我國的兒虐問題惡化"},{"start":1976.098,"end":1989.461,"text":"而虐的人数逐年增加那么真的非常有必要用加重虐待儿童的刑期来发挥我们怎么样去保护我们的儿童能够安全平安的长大"},{"start":1990.615,"end":2005.853,"text":"而我們在第一時間我們看到公共政策的網路參與平台也有提案那麼短短不到一個月有13萬公民富裕針對虐童、致殘、致死者加重刑責"},{"start":2007.334,"end":2014.621,"text":"這樣的引發公憤那當然我們的立法機構跟行政機構當然應該要對所有我們廣大的公民的一個提議必須要提出適當的回應"},{"start":2022.449,"end":2043.985,"text":"但是呢 非常遺憾的是 在這個過程裡面 法務部沒有接受而且呢 是在整個的公民團體 以及在我們立法院一直在召開專題會議之下呢 法務部才改口說 針對凌虐兒少自死罪是否增定死刑 會通盤檢討"},{"start":2045.706,"end":2065.881,"text":"但是呢我們覺得我們沒有辦法在一直等待這個行政單位一直在遲遲沒有辦法修法所以在去年的時候事實上國民黨團一共有15個修法的提案那麼但是可以看到我們的執政黨也就是民進黨團提案數是零"},{"start":2068.303,"end":2085.639,"text":"那麼其中在國民黨團裡面呢有非常多提案就是要把死刑納入刑法的第286條修法凌虐兒童致死要處以死刑或者是無期徒刑而今年國民黨團也正式提出黨團版那麼在我們刑法265條第5項針對未滿7歲"},{"start":2092.985,"end":2111.755,"text":"致人於死者處死刑或無期徒刑致終傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑我們希望藉此的修法能夠保障兒少的福利能夠伸張兒少司法的正義那麼未來我們也會繼續的努力好 以上好 謝謝那下一位我們請王育民委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2121.501,"end":2149.259,"text":"就第三案及第八案兩案一併說明 謝謝好 謝謝主席各位同仁大家好在我擔任立委的時候我從第八屆開始我就提出虐待兒童致死應該最高可以處以死刑到現在我第十一屆重返立法院這樣的主張我還是繼續堅持雖然過去在提出相關法案的時候"},{"start":2150.16,"end":2169.501,"text":"都被司法單位打回票覺得不可以再增訂死刑但是我認為法律是服務人民法律應該與時俱進從最近的虐童案大家已經看到了大家對於六歲以下沒有自我保護能力"},{"start":2170.382,"end":2184.69,"text":"被大人活活虐待致死的孩童所有的人民都憤怒也覺得不應該但是孩子的司法正義有沒有得到伸張並沒有在目前中華民國的刑法裡面"},{"start":2186.705,"end":2205.762,"text":"強盜致死有可以最高到死刑但是你凌虐一個孩子致死沒有死刑請問我們真的有給孩子公平正義嗎所以今天我為什麼提了兩個修法的法條就是要讓法務部表態"},{"start":2206.903,"end":2222.728,"text":"你今天到底要修在286還是修在271因為當過去我提286的時候他就說不可以在286這不符合比例原則罪行相當原則所以感覺好像應該修在271但又提出了271之後"},{"start":2224.349,"end":2242.43,"text":"他可能又會用別的理由來拒絕我認為法務部不要再逃避這樣的一個問題前陣子公民團體超過138,995人他們提議就是虐待兒童致死應該最高可以到死刑"},{"start":2243.551,"end":2268.494,"text":"這個就是強大的民意今天我看到法務部的報告他說之後還會再開專家學者會議再來研議請問你要研議到何時這一題應該早就要研議出來了吧所以我希望法務部不要再逃避你的責任這個也不要變成是你推脫的藉口今天"},{"start":2269.475,"end":2285.685,"text":"國民黨的立委多人提出版本包括黨團提出版本事實上我們只有一個目標就是這一些弱小的孩子他的確需要受到更大的保護而當有大人你用凝虐的方式你用殘忍的方式"},{"start":2286.745,"end":2303.545,"text":"導致這個孩子失去他的生命你必須付出相當的代價而這個代價就是我們應該要在刑法裡面徵定凌虐幼童至死最高可以處以死刑用最嚴厲的法律來制止"},{"start":2304.205,"end":2317.711,"text":"這一些不良的人繼續去傷害我們的孩子所以請大家支持我們繼續修法我們這次希望修法可以通過我們還給孩子應有的司法上的公平正義 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請張志倫委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2333.015,"end":2356.908,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位觀眾 早近年來 國內屢見針對幼童施以凝虐之重大刑案不罰年僅僅1、2歲之嬰幼兒遭長期虐待 最終致死 令人痛心疾首儘管現行法在第286條已經針對兒童凝虐行為明文入罪"},{"start":2357.948,"end":2365.522,"text":"並在去年修法加重其刑至二分之一但實務上仍有難以有效赫子此類似的案件一再重演"},{"start":2366.61,"end":2386.216,"text":"顯見現行法制對防止嚴重兒童虐童案的嚇阻效果仍有不足也難以回應社會對於加重刑責保護幼童生命權的高度期待根據衛福部的統計112年全國受虐兒少案件多達12646人其中未滿6歲者"},{"start":2390.897,"end":2408.284,"text":"擊打2868人佔比將近23%年紀越小越沒有自我保護與表達能力如果無法及時發現常常淪落為長期凌虐的受害對象最終釀成不可挽回的憾事尤其112年12月24號的凱凱案"},{"start":2411.605,"end":2433.634,"text":"為典型 僅一歲的男童遭托保母凌虐致死 引發社會強烈憤慨之後更有近14萬人在公共政策網路平台連署主張虐童致死應處於死刑或無期徒刑 並不得假釋足以證明人民對於強化兒少保護的強烈期待"},{"start":2434.494,"end":2463.273,"text":"本席針對刑法第271條及286條提案增定加重處罰之規定對於未滿7歲之人若以凝虐方式致死處以死刑或無期徒刑處以無刑徒刑者明文不得假釋並蓬佈提高對於未滿18歲兒少虐待之基本刑責致重傷致死結果處罰之標準應符合比例原則提升整體法律威嚇力"},{"start":2464.611,"end":2481.669,"text":"所以我們這次所修正的條文除參考聯合國兒童權利公約與公民與政治權利國際公約的精神外更充分體現我國政府對於保障兒童生命權身心發展與人性尊嚴之責任"},{"start":2483.291,"end":2505.417,"text":"希望透過此事修法建立社會對於兒女凝蓉忍之共識並有效嚇子不法使每一位孩子皆能在安全與尊重中成長茁壯敬請各位委員支持本修法修正提案盡速完成立法程序落實大家對兒童權益的保障謝謝"},{"start":2508.851,"end":2525.643,"text":"好謝謝我們接續進行機關報告請機關代表針對專案內容及法案一併報告尋答時才綜合詢答每位發言時間三分鐘我們請先請司法院王副秘書長報告然後接下來我們請法務部政部長報告好謝謝"},{"start":2534.304,"end":2552.629,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生大家早安本院奉要列席報告深感榮幸之報告如下敬請指教第一點 教化可能性社會復歸可能性和死刑量刑的關係教化可能性它就是社會復歸可能性的上位概念"},{"start":2554.609,"end":2571.986,"text":"僵化可能性它并不是一个精神医学心理学或者是法律固有的概念那实务上鉴定人对于法院这部分的嘱托他会分别鉴定被告矫制的可能性再社会化的可能性还有再犯的可能性"},{"start":2573.027,"end":2599.668,"text":"那量刑前的社會調查和責任能力鑑定它是不一樣的責任能力的鑑定呢它重點在判斷被告行為當時是否因為精神障礙欠缺了辨識能力或是控制能力那量刑前的社會調查呢它是重在發覺有沒有影響被告犯罪的中遠程犯罪原因"},{"start":2600.188,"end":2620.599,"text":"也就是說回顧被告過去的面向然後協助法院判斷被告日後的社會復歸可能性那這個部分是掌望被告未來的面向再來根據司法院重大矚目刑事案件量刑前調查的評估參考手冊的說明"},{"start":2622.08,"end":2642.092,"text":"社會復歸可能性作為鑑定的事項那量刑前的這個調查它的量刑因子呢基本上它還是要以刑法第57條第456款關於被告的生活狀況、自視程度、品性作為核心"},{"start":2643.012,"end":2661.575,"text":"那量刑前的社會調查雖然可以提供法院全面的視角讓法院可以更慎重周全的判斷個案的量刑因子還有適用刑法第59條的必要但是並不是直接把刑法第59條的適用全權委託量刑前的社會調查"},{"start":2663.809,"end":2681.208,"text":"被告影響陳述部分呢這主要是起源於美國法治這一類的陳述呢它可能令人難以承受或者是有偏見或者是具有一定的煽動性所以說在程序上呢它是限於量刑階段的進行那實體的部分呢它只限在"},{"start":2681.929,"end":2702.895,"text":"被害人個人特徵跟犯罪結果對於被害人家庭成員所造成的情感衝擊那這部分在我國法治呢它的相關規定請參考書面它主要是使被害人或其家屬可以陳述意見或者是就科型的範圍來表示意見那第二個部分呢有關於"},{"start":2703.735,"end":2720.429,"text":"刑法第286條修法草案的部分 詳如書面本院尊重貴院及相關主管機關意見的形成 以上主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席並代表本部報告並備諮詢"},{"start":2733.464,"end":2760.616,"text":"自報告如下進行指教有關專題報告法官如何判死及死刑良刑準則部分在憲法法庭作成一三年度憲判至八號判決之後最高法院一對死刑案件涉及五十刑法五十七條良刑是有有說明法律上的一個意見必須考慮一般情況及犯罪情況新化第五十七條良刑審酌事項及第五十九條酌量減刑之規定賦予法院個案裁量權"},{"start":2761.816,"end":2785.244,"text":"對於適用國民法官審判程序的案件本部首署檢察機關經落實提出量刑的一個證據使個案都能符合程序及實體證據並求取充分評價是適當行動以懲不罰對於量刑不當的個案亦將依法提起上訴就計以罰罪行相當性捍衛被害人的權利"},{"start":2786.244,"end":2809.544,"text":"第二 有關病案審查內同相關刑法修正的查案部分感謝各位委員長期對兒童行者的關心及重視刑法第286條進來經過108年及去年二度修正新增了第三項至第五項的處罰規定並擴大本罪適用年齡範圍以遏止病重罰兒童少年身心受淋漓的步伐"},{"start":2810.345,"end":2838.665,"text":"二行目前本部已將內統行者納入刑法研修會議討論議案聽取審辯學及機關代表意見並於近期召開修法研商會議廣納各界意見通盤檢討相關各罪及刑法假釋的規定本部贊成兒童欠缺自我保護能力對內統致死之被告應予嚴懲重罰對各界修法建立經極為重視也尊重各位委員提案的修法內容"},{"start":2839.085,"end":2868.043,"text":"更可考慮在符合比例原則罪者相當的前提之下對您內的方式殺害未滿7歲兒童自犯罪被害人提高刑法提高處罰刑度或調整假釋規定達成惡質內同犯刑的目的實踐而少的司法正義充分保障生命身體的法益有關各位委員草案版本有關條件構成要見刑度與刑法總則是關聯部分敬請參酌本部書面意見以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教"},{"start":2869.262,"end":2875.832,"text":"好 謝謝部長那其餘提出書面報告機關有沒有需要口頭補充的"},{"start":2877.418,"end":2903.085,"text":"好那沒有的話就案代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答由於詢答後接續進行法案審查所以我們依例本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時間得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2909.954,"end":2927.454,"text":"謝謝主席,馬上有請法務部部長司法院副秘書長好,馬上部長副秘書長委員早安兩位好,今天召會所排的這個主題我相信兩位都不陌生,針對"},{"start":2930.011,"end":2957.508,"text":"沒有辦法有保護自我能力的小朋友遭到虐待並進一步發生死亡或者是重傷的結果社會上面以凱凱案發出了非常強烈的怒吼這不是今天才發生的事情過去這段時間我相信社會各界很多NGO團體甚至非常多的媽媽"},{"start":2959.011,"end":2965.827,"text":"站出來齊聚在台北地方法院的門口為了要關心凱凱案"},{"start":2967.472,"end":2992.738,"text":"大家都站出來發聲怒吼也有立法委員跑到台北地方法院加入這個抗議的行列表達人民的憤怒我覺得這都是公民表達意見健康的行為但重要的是當這些悲劇發生了以後我們的主管機關應對到底是什麼第一時間"},{"start":2994.704,"end":3008.949,"text":"民眾超過13萬將近14萬的公民在政策平台提出這樣的建議法務部第一時間是不予採納應該沒錯吧這公共政策的平台有寫錯法務部的意見嗎部長"},{"start":3011.881,"end":3030.04,"text":"呃的確是有勾到那個不予採納的現象但是我們的內文我們是有把各那個廣納社會意見今天還是不予採納嗎我們現在是採納我們有今天採納了沒有我們就是尊重我們各委員的一個提案所以保護部沒有立場我們有自己的版本我們有在哪裡"},{"start":3030.7,"end":3051.341,"text":"我們在那個昨天跟明天會做一個研修的一個會議昨天跟明天會做研修的會議對 昨天有提到刑法的修正小組的一個會議那今天有在一個延伸的一個什麼時候版本要提出來我們盡速提出來什麼叫盡速提出來 今天就要審啊要等你們嗎那另外因為我們那個修法的一個要等你們嗎"},{"start":3052.748,"end":3075.236,"text":"需要等你們嗎 請針對問題回答 今天要不要等你們是不是可以 我們可以提出我們一個法案來當然可以 大家都在等啊 東西在哪裡那另外因為我們有在不好意思啊 請你針對問題回答好不好我問你東西在哪裡 然後你跟我講另外明天還要開會嘛 明天有那個所以今天要不要等你們今天要等你們嗎"},{"start":3078.854,"end":3106.763,"text":"如果委員的話我們會提出我們一個版本因為我想這個經過今天會提出來是不是明天有一個研修會對嘛所以我在一直問你今天要不要等你們嘛我剛才一直在講說5號明天有研修會所以今天要不要等你們今天就要審啦然後你跟我說你明天要開會昨天就開跟明天有兩次的一個會議是嘛所以今天要不要等你們要審檢變選嘛是今天要不要等你們你還是沒有回答問題啊"},{"start":3108.566,"end":3130.658,"text":"請問我的問題有很刁鑽嗎你說你昨天有開會明天要開會我們今天要審法案我說今天要不要等你們部長沒有立場喔委員如果要等我們法務部的一個研修的一個草案的意見那當然我們是很樂見這是拖多久啦從公共政策平台開始到現在多久啦"},{"start":3137.438,"end":3164.288,"text":"明天要開會那今天要不要等你們今天我再問一個問題所有委員這麼多委員的提案有沒有哪一個版本是法務部贊成的因為我看你們的書面報告我看了半天啊每一個版本你們全部都有批評那我看完了以後就剩下一個問題每一個版本法務部全部都有意見全部都批評那大家再問那法務部的版本在哪裡"},{"start":3165.666,"end":3182.411,"text":"今天委員提案的版本有沒有任何一個版本法務部是贊成的有還是沒有各委員的一個版本你們都尊重嘛我們會當作你們研議的嘛有沒有任何一個版本是你們贊成的有還是沒有有還是沒有我們會重整各委員的一個版本是是是 東西在哪裡現在在還在研議嘛"},{"start":3195.504,"end":3209.714,"text":"我聽你講這種話講很多次了啦大家聽不下去了啦你的立法方向就是要嚴懲重罰你的立法方向嚴懲重罰你的版本在哪裡我一直問你版本在哪裡所以繼續研議嘛公共政策平台到現在多久啦"},{"start":3215.421,"end":3222.144,"text":"你今天在這邊還在打官腔我沒有打官腔齁這個委員我們也就在你沒有打官腔把東西交出來嘛對那你把東西交出來嘛你講形容詞講空洞的"},{"start":3229.266,"end":3233.448,"text":"每一個委員的版本你全部都罵叫你自己拿版本出來沒有關係啦 今天你在這邊講的大家聽得下去 聽不下去每一個公民自己有自己的判斷啦好 來 下一個請示法院"},{"start":3254.84,"end":3260.322,"text":"請你先停一下好不好主席請他先停一下好不好現在是我的質詢時間欸我問的問題他不回答然後他在那邊故故事的講你要開記者會請你等一下用法務部出去開記者會跟全民交代"},{"start":3277.868,"end":3292.228,"text":"我問的問題你有沒有回答還是在浪費我的時間透過直播大家都有一把尺可以看啦我們時間先暫停所以大家先冷靜下來那我們現在再繼續開始沒有主席我只要求一個最基本的規則"},{"start":3293.65,"end":3312.355,"text":"現在是尋答捏我問問題他不回答在那邊自顧自講他自己的部長麻煩一下因為是備詢麻煩就委員的問題去你找我部長要開記者會看你要講多久隨便你啦在那邊浪費我的質詢時間來請司法院我收到一個澄清喔是凱凱的網路爸媽澄清書啊他們有提出很具體修法的建議"},{"start":3324.619,"end":3340.331,"text":"但是第二點 請你看一下他們現在訴求啊廢除死刑一字決現在該怎麼辦 從司法院的觀點台灣是一個憲政民主的國家嘛現在人民發出怒吼啦"},{"start":3342.777,"end":3370.599,"text":"這些爸媽團體要求要廢除死刑一字決啊來 司法院可不可以告訴全體台灣的公民憲法法庭說死刑各審期一定要一字決那現在人民發出怒吼說要廢除該怎麼做告訴大家該怎麼做因為這些爸爸媽媽大家很痛心看不下去大法官的這個要求提出了這樣的訴求"},{"start":3372.25,"end":3393.668,"text":"台灣的人民有權利知道面對這種自己擴權的大法官現在人民能夠怎麼辦還是沒有辦法大法官說了算你們都拿我沒皮條立法院乖乖聽話人民不滿你們也沒有任何的手段可以做來 請教司法院"},{"start":3394.929,"end":3406.669,"text":"那個報告委員齁那個因為委員所垂詢的這個問題已經涉及到我國那個憲政各機關職權這個部分司法院尊重奇怪憲法法庭不就在司法院嗎"},{"start":3408.895,"end":3434.326,"text":"如果司法院沒有辦法回答那是誰要回答 行政院回答嗎還是總統賴清德出來回答這跟考試院監察院絕對沒關係啦因為有關於大法官所做的這一個判決呢就是依照我國上來的那個釋字185還有那個645的那個解釋它是有一定的那個效力的所以就是說"},{"start":3435.666,"end":3449.609,"text":"呃 委員所垂詢的就是說這個不是我垂詢的啊是這一群爸媽垂詢的啊他們沒有機會站在這邊請教司法院所以我們作為民意代表有機會站在這邊請教所以我幫他們請教現在該怎麼辦誰能夠怎麼辦誰拿這些大法官有皮條請教司法院我接到陳情我一定要幫他們問啦這不是一兩個人欸"},{"start":3465.583,"end":3492.694,"text":"是一群憤怒的爸媽他們提出這樣的訴求要我們立法委員想辦法我也在想辦法該怎麼辦憲法法庭在司法院這沒有問題嘛所以我今天拜託司法院給這些陳情的爸媽示意該怎麼辦他們能夠做什麼還是回家抱著棉被哭就可以了來請司法院"},{"start":3496.967,"end":3525.368,"text":"委員這剛剛已經回覆過了因為你沒有回覆啊我請教的是司法院說這些憤怒的人民該怎麼辦回家抱著棉被哭嗎司法院的立場就是尊重那個大法官所做的那個解釋啊對嘛但是人民憤怒嘛人民無法接受嘛也不想接受嘛大家都在問啊我國憲法什麼時候給大法官這麼高的權利啊手伸得這麼深啊"},{"start":3528.646,"end":3549.379,"text":"我之前已經請教過司法院了全世界有哪一個國家要求死刑一字決要各省級全部都要一字決你講個立法例出來給大家聽嘛大家看不懂啊不要說他們看不懂連我都看不懂啊這個判決出來第一時間我就問這個問題啦現在是他們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣"},{"start":3555.868,"end":3560.229,"text":"立法院拿他們沒皮條這些憤怒的爸媽也拿他們沒皮條他們現在是以為他們是台灣民主憲政的太上皇人家提這樣的陳情出來啦現在我們這些掌握權力的人怎麼面對怎麼面對我該怎麼回答這些爸媽"},{"start":3587.808,"end":3614.264,"text":"對不起 你的陳情完全沒道理 大法官說了算我們立法委員沒有辦法 司法院也不知道該怎麼辦就是他們說了算我希望喔今天在這邊的質詢這一些爸媽所提出來的疑問所有參與這個憲判制8號的憲法法庭的大法官我希望他們都能看到"},{"start":3615.799,"end":3625.846,"text":"我也希望他們能夠發揮所謂憲法守護者的精神勇敢的站出來告訴這些爸媽你們能夠怎麼辦你們能夠拿我們怎麼辦今天的法律案我不知道趙委員等不等"},{"start":3638.854,"end":3664.202,"text":"但我代表台灣民眾黨黨團表達立場我們支持 如果今天要出委員會 就讓他出委員會好 謝謝接下來我們請黃寶昌委員代理主席請問 王委員你有空嗎 可以代理主席可以嗎 我在想你們委員在 這樣比較有理由再麻煩王委員代理主席"},{"start":3678.936,"end":3682.363,"text":"好請吳宗憲委員質詢我們請副秘書長部長還有衛福部次長委員長安"},{"start":3697.229,"end":3725.35,"text":"我先請教部長以及複密延續綱的問題很簡單的問題因為之前有某一位民進黨的委員說我們講說這個世界上沒有一個國家法律的體力是要求所有省級包括是省法律省一致決沒有這樣的體力那這位立委在國會的殿堂欺騙全國人民拿著他法律的專業的外衣來欺騙全國人民說"},{"start":3726.571,"end":3739.323,"text":"什麼美國陪審團就有這樣子的做法但是我現在請問的問題是有沒有哪一個國家的法律體力是要求事實審以及法律審所有法官對於死刑判決要一致決來 複密"},{"start":3753.143,"end":3781.552,"text":"你們不要再跟我聚焦什麼陪審團怎麼樣不用再講那個啦我們就講個最簡單事實審法律審的法官要一致決哪一個國家要求全部的那個體力是要這樣就了解那個歐洲的部分似乎沒有這樣子的就是要求一致決那但是美國就是有一些那個那美國聯邦的最高法院呢我現在講的是事實審加法律審喔你不要再給我聚焦在哪一個因為我覺得有一些人現在都會偷換概念"},{"start":3783.407,"end":3797.487,"text":"好 那我跟你講 之前那個張大法官他也講得很清楚啦 他是留學美國的 他講得非常清楚在美國的法律省並沒有這樣的要求所以剛剛黃國昌委員才會在這邊跟你們說"},{"start":3798.889,"end":3819.871,"text":"之前他有來詢問過你們這個世界上有沒有哪一個體力是要求所有的事實審法律審都要一致決那我們這邊得到的是沒有那當時你們回覆的也是沒有那張大法官他說的也是沒有所以我這邊可能先跟你們說明一下那這就是我們一直覺得說政治人物實在不應該隨便的誤導啦"},{"start":3822.293,"end":3843.876,"text":"那我們也很希望說找到是不是有某一個很小國家或怎麼樣他們有自己特殊的體力但是目前為止是沒有那比較世界比較大的或法律較先進的國家我們從制度上面來看並沒有說要求所有的審計全部都要法官要一致決我想這個部分我們想說先說明一下好那再來我請教一下"},{"start":3844.946,"end":3864.033,"text":"那個司法院黃凌凱被判死刑然後定宴再進行槍決這個變成是現在很多政客拿出來講說我國沒有廢除死刑啊所以有一個人被槍決了我想請問一下這個被判處死刑槍決這件事情跟憲判8有沒有任何關聯性"},{"start":3867.339,"end":3891.542,"text":"沒有嘛 因為他這個是很早年就被判死刑 這跟去年的憲判八這個是沒有關聯性嘛那第二個就是 他其實是對於確定判決的死刑加以執行嘛他並不是說 這個東西就是 他說有執行一個死刑啊所以這個法官說的以自決 這個並不會影響到死刑的判決啊其實我跟你講 這個也是政客在誤導人民嘛那個複密是不是這樣"},{"start":3892.805,"end":3901.704,"text":"死刑確定判決的執行跟法官能不能夠一致決判死刑這應該是兩回事吧或是部長我講的有沒有錯"},{"start":3904.142,"end":3929.994,"text":"現在那個像黃定愷他那個執行的話那是有一致決那現在一致決的話目前都還是有陸續對所以沒有關聯性謝謝部長謝謝複密所以沒有任何關聯性請政客不要再拿這個東西來說一致決這兩個完全無關一個是執行判決確定判決的執行一個是判決兩個是完全不一樣的東西我有時候覺得很辛苦就是為什麼"},{"start":3931.995,"end":3958.346,"text":"這些政客不是不懂 但是他們很喜歡誤導人民拿一些錯誤的觀念來誤導人民這一次其實我覺得我自己對中選會他去沒收了這個公投當然我們心裡是不滿但是現在的中選會他到底是不是當初法律設計要他當作是一個獨立機關他還獨不獨立以及主委的個性我想社會自有公斷他沒收了"},{"start":3959.403,"end":3968.615,"text":"人民的罷免權也沒收了人民的公投權這是我看到現在的中選會而且他的沒收是莫名其妙完全違法他也照幹我們現在"},{"start":3970.339,"end":3998.83,"text":"人民要求政府依法行政已經變成是一個很奢侈的請求了現在我看到這些行政機關一個一個變成這樣好那這一次呢中選會他為了要沒收立法院所提出來這個公投法案他甚至在他的新聞稿還寫了什麼他認為大法官的憲判制裡面的一字訣他這個是對於法院組織法的修正一個立法原則的創制行為"},{"start":4000.495,"end":4027.361,"text":"所以現在連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權啊連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權啊 複密你們現在大法官的作為已經取代了立法權的功能了耶那這樣子五權分立不是含假的嗎那現在大法官明明是在解釋違憲啊怎麼自己帶頭違憲這是我要跟複密報告那再來我請教複密還有部長"},{"start":4028.871,"end":4055.155,"text":"因為我們今天有兩個重要的議題一個是什麼叫最嚴重犯罪的情節那我們先談最嚴重犯罪情節因為目前我們要判死刑我們在判決階段有兩大關卡三大啦 剛剛我們講的是一字決就算了再來什麼叫做最嚴重犯罪到目前還是非常的空洞請問複密對於法官已經有一個標準出來了嗎什麼叫最嚴重犯罪"},{"start":4062.085,"end":4074.373,"text":"這個在憲判八裡頭其實它有非常多具體的例事對 它是例事而已嘛它不是一個原則告訴你要怎麼做它只是什麼例子什麼例子嘛那超過那個例子呢"},{"start":4075.697,"end":4104.255,"text":"那變成說我大法官只能想到五個例子的話那就只有這五個例子嗎他不是一個原則那法官要怎麼判斷什麼叫最嚴重這是如此的空洞還涉及人命那再來另外一個有無教化可能性這也完全空洞啊所以你光是這兩個東西什麼叫做最嚴重什麼叫做有無教化可能性請問一下部長以及複密這兩個東西你要法官們要檢察官們怎麼去判斷"},{"start":4109.734,"end":4125.923,"text":"沒關係 沒辦法回答 就一樣說真的我也不知道該怎麼回答這兩個東西有沒有辦法提出一個標準那這個也是現在這麼多的人民團體一直來跟我們澄清的主因那我之前在幾次公開的"},{"start":4126.603,"end":4147.177,"text":"我以前講過一個就是過去我自己擔任檢察官我們擔任司法官的時候我們只聚焦在構成要件所以我只重視去了解這個人怎麼死的我卻忘記了去思考他們當年是怎麼活的他們在被打死之前他是怎麼樣要求別人饒他一條命"},{"start":4148.438,"end":4171.77,"text":"這個法官檢察官都不在乎這些事情但是對這些家屬而言他們最重視的是這個這些人在當年活著的時候他是怎麼樣孝順自己的父母那我們講幾個啦像台南的那兩位被殺死的警官那個土警官跟草警官他們在被殺死之前他們想的是怎麼樣把這些可疑的人或脫逃的人犯把他逮捕歸案他為的是社會安全"},{"start":4172.991,"end":4183.75,"text":"土城的那個劉警官他在被毒品人口撞死之前他想的是怎麼樣維護那個地方的晚上的"},{"start":4184.727,"end":4206.565,"text":"治安 安全那你再說像那個施鑿講的那個陳老師他被殺之前他是想說去菜市場買個菜回家煮飯給家裡面的人吃所以他們我們今天當司法官當久了我們覺得我只在乎他是被殺了幾刀 被開了幾槍我只在乎他怎麼死我們完全忘記他當初怎麼活下來的"},{"start":4207.686,"end":4230.308,"text":"他當時活著的時候怎麼樣孝順自己的家人父母然後怎麼樣對家庭的重要性所以有人被死了以後有那個父母跟我講啊他說那一槍不是打死一個人啊他那一槍打死三個因為這個人是他的獨子他說那一槍打下去之後他跟他先生兩個七十幾歲了人生也無望了所以我常常覺得啦我們都太著重於構成要件的"},{"start":4231.229,"end":4244.577,"text":"限縮在那一塊裡面我們忘了忘記去思考這個行為對於社會以及對於家族他造成的危害有多大所以然後我們今天再加上這幾個完全沒有標準的教化可能性以及"},{"start":4245.768,"end":4265.649,"text":"什麼叫最嚴重之罪這已經讓死刑已經變成是不知道法官不知道怎麼判決然後再加上這個憲判扒下去我覺得所以我們一直說啦這叫實質廢死雖然民進黨一直說沒有什麼我們沒廢死也沒有實質廢死這個名詞但是我想走過司法審判實務的人都會很清楚這個要判死刑我覺得"},{"start":4266.87,"end":4290.056,"text":"難如登天啦 這也是回應現在很多民團的一些想法那我們再講啦 就是說 像譬如說這次有一個張介忠 他殺害三個婦人 還把他分屍了或是馬大女學生的姦殺案件就算你認為是最嚴重的犯罪 可是他還是被認為是不是還有教化可能性然後就不停地發回根審 發回根審"},{"start":4291.576,"end":4307.464,"text":"所以我覺得目前我看到的還是用過於空洞的東西來去要求法官下判決這個規範 這個門檻其實根本就跨越不了那也請大家想一想"},{"start":4308.504,"end":4321.472,"text":"就是你們要知道這些被告你們一直保護他可是其實他當時在現場是多麼堅決一定要要被害人死亡他那個一定要他死還有很多像那個新北戈侯案"},{"start":4323.032,"end":4349.92,"text":"同學都已經制止叫那個行為人不要再殺了他還是繼續砍殺那個小朋友然後他說我今天就是要給他死這個是我們知道的事實我想說大家不要忘記了這一塊我想要再提一個東西就是說我們這段時間虐童的案件其實一直在上升而且上升的很多我想我們今天既然是討論這個"},{"start":4351.693,"end":4380.265,"text":"類同致死的這個法案我想有三個再麻煩你們能夠思考就是說其實我們這個社會還是要多跟民眾對話司法人要多跟民眾對話不要在那個框架裡面但我們一直在框架裡面認為後面是過失致死啊這個不是殺人罪啊所以這個不該有死刑那我們是不是過於被限制在那個框架中那還有就是刑法強盜致死其實還是有死刑的規範這很多委員都有講嘛"},{"start":4381.463,"end":4402.179,"text":"那所以 俄國法制也有這個東西 不是沒有啊所以可不可以就是說 隨便拿一個這個道理就是說我拒絕跟你們溝通像法務部那時候對於人民的這個要求就是說我們就免談那這個也是不對的邏輯這個委員呈現我們沒有免談 我們這個就是那個是勾選是勾錯了"},{"start":4403.84,"end":4422.703,"text":"那連內文我們是有研修 我們要納入研修那個內文 只是大家是沒有去看內文不管怎麼樣 勾對勾錯 但是人民的心裡的而且這次我們把立法方向上是在維為維為就報告了嘛好 謝謝部長 後面有改變 謝謝部長但至少在第一時間讓人民的感覺是你不願意溝通好 那我想喔"},{"start":4424.506,"end":4442.477,"text":"虐童的統計這個東西 其實我在去年4月17號我在本委員會 我已經要求了法務部要趕快去統計虐童的件數 然後受理件數 案件來源 還有被害的年齡分布等等因為這些東西跟我們修法有很大關聯性但是換了部長之後"},{"start":4443.678,"end":4458.23,"text":"我上一次問結果上一次次長跟我說沒有這個統計數字所以你們不能這樣啦你們不能說齁人民會我們要求你們提法案然後你們跟我說虐童致死要判刑這不符合比例原則"},{"start":4458.991,"end":4466.18,"text":"就跟你要犯罪的數據的時候呢你又跟我說兩手一攤你說我沒數據行政機關是這樣在做的嗎我們回去後我們趕緊統計就是刑罰286的案件這個從109人到113人有328件那個從那個案件的一個數字"},{"start":4478.038,"end":4499.613,"text":"沒關係 我跟你講 你數字要給我 但是我上上週在這邊開會的時候我當時跟次長要他說沒有統計 警政署也沒有統計但是我在去年四月我就有要求要做這些統計因為我們要趕快修法嘛 所以我需要這些數據啦好 那我再跟那個衛福部 一分鐘跟衛福部提一下"},{"start":4500.353,"end":4516.023,"text":"目前我國兒童的政策還有資源非常非常的混亂所以0到2歲的托育這個是社家屬對不對2到6歲是教育部然後0到2歲的兒童安置是社家屬就2到6歲是保護師"},{"start":4517.344,"end":4536.205,"text":"然後0到2歲他是內政部有一個少婦會然後2到6歲是警政署有副優隊就是說他管理是非常的混亂啦但是你們去看一下上次那個凱凱案發生之後就他竟然是教育部管轄的文教單位他在主管"},{"start":4536.906,"end":4559.895,"text":"所以變成說大家各做各的然後橫向聯繫也斷裂是不是說我們應該去思考你像日本在2023年他有成立那個兒童家庭廳嘛韓國也有類似的那個兒童權力保護院他也有類似的規範那所以說我們是不是要趕快處理否則目前台灣的社家屬他的兒少福利組人數只有17人"},{"start":4561.656,"end":4586.173,"text":"他要負責台灣海量的案件所以這個東西我想請教一下我們這邊有幾個問題啦就是我希望你們回覆給我而且這個也都是民團希望我們一定要問清楚的也請各位一定要給我們時程就是設立兒童部或兒少保護部的期程還有期限那能不能夠在今年的12月24號如期的揭牌"},{"start":4586.773,"end":4607.215,"text":"再來出收養的媒合機構還有管理辦法這個草案目前的進度還有能不能夠在今年六月完成法治的這個程序我希望趕快回覆給我們這個那我們會公開你們也可以公開因為非常多的民團現在一直來找我們承認這件事情因為他們發現他們找某些政黨無效了"},{"start":4607.856,"end":4635.816,"text":"沒有用了因為他們的黨綱把他們綁住很多委員很有心要幫但是現階段不知道該怎麼幫所以我們必須我們站出來要為這些民團講講話這些被害人家屬有太多被害人家屬在我辦公室哭得完全克制不了自己他們想到家人被殺想到小孩子被殺他完全克制不了自己然後一直在那邊痛哭然後說我們司法把他們當作司法的孤兒這部分太麻煩了"},{"start":4640.842,"end":4659.477,"text":"這個什麼時候可以給我們我簡單兩個回應第一個就是有關於說出養媒合的這個辦法我們現在目前已經在外面我們現在目前已經送到相關來announce另外第二個委員跟各界都非常關心我們兒少專責機構"},{"start":4660.638,"end":4683.984,"text":"那跟委員報告我們現在目前也已經提到一個已經也研擬相關的辦法那現在就是說到底要成立私屬或者您剛剛說不這個我想現在到組織的部分這個部分我們都會趕快來研議那我們相關的進度也會趕快跟委員來報告那這個問題可不可以兩個禮拜先回給我這幾個問題的答覆那有一些沒辦法解決我們可以再趕快來討論好的好的好那謝謝市長謝謝部長謝謝吳議員"},{"start":4694.092,"end":4718.067,"text":"好 謝謝 我們下一位請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長麻煩副秘 麻煩部長跟衛福部的次長 請次長好 委員早"},{"start":4723.836,"end":4750.763,"text":"最近這個關於這個小朋友被虐待致死很多家長表達了意見那也去進行相關的不管是集會遊行抗議或是表達他們的訴求你們三位都有看到這件事情他們的訴求有沒有人沒有看到都看到嗎那都看到你們有沒有你們三位有沒有人反對他們的訴求"},{"start":4758.477,"end":4781.705,"text":"應該就來檢討可不可以再充實可以完備法治來更保護兒童我們對兒童少的這些的被被凌虐被被強害我們認為是零容忍的所以我們我聽到他們的聲音聽到他們的聲音然後也趕快積極的想辦法補上不管是政策或者法令這部分我們那個以最"},{"start":4782.904,"end":4789.828,"text":"最嚴格的一個態度我們修法來保障兒童那他們的訴求有哪一點"},{"start":4791.331,"end":4816.422,"text":"你們還是保留了這部分我想各界的聲音我們都會參裁會給他各界意見像那個以零列的這部分兒童兒童這部分我們立法方向我們是認為這是一個非常不可原諒的犯罪所以上次委員會這次我在座重申我們希望能夠考慮能夠研修把它列入到272條加重室友像未滿7歲的零列的這些"},{"start":4817.082,"end":4836.756,"text":"用殺人的手段零類也有可能用殺人零類來殺人的手段這種我們認為是不是可以更重就是比一般的殺人罪更重它是屬於特別的殺人的一個加重犯刑是不是可以到死刑或無期徒刑把那個十年以上那個拿掉直接就判無期徒刑或者死刑那這些不得假釋"},{"start":4837.517,"end":4864.641,"text":"好 那另外那個286這部分我們也是考慮是不是把它認為因為我們認為說這個零類制止這部分是不是可以實行這部分我們也是納入我們這個討論的修法這個你剛剛有提到昨天有相關的會議這兩天也會有相關的會議那明天也要再開一次會那剛剛這個部長提的這個內容是你的看法還是內部這個討論過程中我們提交的一個討論的一個修法的一個方向部裡頭提交的"},{"start":4865.081,"end":4871.704,"text":"提交給行修小組的一個修法的一個意見第二個我請教衛福部剛剛這個我們召委提到這個相關虐童的這一些統計這個數字"},{"start":4885.273,"end":4903.676,"text":"你們的認知也是這樣嗎報告委員我們確實是這樣就這幾年其實老實說大家對於兒童那你覺得這個數字是低估還是高估報告委員我們現在目前我們就如此來做呈現這數字一定是低估嘛"},{"start":4904.136,"end":4922.579,"text":"因為這個是法務部統計的嘛有進到法務部系統的進到司法系統的才會出現嘛對不對那在台灣各個角落這些虐童的這些事情嘛那這些事情未必會進到司法的系統嘛可能會有一些黑數好"},{"start":4923.96,"end":4942.067,"text":"那這個衛福部怎麼處理呢報告委員我們現在目前有幾個部分現在其實最主要大概就是說前端的預防怎麼預防來我跟委員報告我們現在目前就是說在各個結合各個林里我們都有推出一些所謂的這個零暴力零容忍的這些社區"},{"start":4943.127,"end":4967.445,"text":"鄰里協助對沒錯鄰里協助我想另外一個方面就是說來加強對於社會各界還有其實最重要事實上大家還是鄰里之間的互助我想還是最重要的那現在執行的狀況怎麼樣包委員我們現在目前就是這主要是社會安全網的這一個的那個部件那這個部分也非常感謝這個立法院對我們相關預算的一個支持"},{"start":4967.785,"end":4991.974,"text":"那我想這裡面最主要落實的一個問題其實最主要過去大概都有一個所謂法不入家門啦就是認為就是說這個所謂的家暴啦好這一塊你們就繼續努力這個事前的預防還是要放在最前面啦這個衛福部該做因為事情發生啊基本上進到司法的體系裡頭啦那接下來我請問這個司法院的這個副秘書長"},{"start":4994.128,"end":5019.005,"text":"複必請教一下我們經常在媒體上看到不管是這種虐待小朋友虐待完全沒辦法有行為能力的老人他可能躺在床上然後被虐待被打不管他在家裡或者是在其他的什麼安養中心諸如此類的反正就是後來那個影像發現他被虐待或者是怎麼樣或者說他就被殺害了諸如此類"},{"start":5020.747,"end":5036.078,"text":"經常啊 我們後面就會看到那個 兇手啊就有精神障礙 他有心智缺陷每次啊 一般人看到這個 後面加這幾個字啊大家的 整個都唸講啊 又再來啊"},{"start":5037.045,"end":5066.694,"text":"就幹了這些事的人然後呢就又被可能是當這個加害者就這個被告的這個律師啊就拿出來說我這個當事人有精神障礙有心智缺陷所以所以所以一般如果看到這個大家都會理解站在法院的立場就是說這個在做相關的這個判決的時候啊這一些在實務上你們到底怎麼把它納進去考量的"},{"start":5067.537,"end":5068.438,"text":"法治上一定會規定"},{"start":5097.837,"end":5115.481,"text":"有沒有足夠的這個去就是辯護的這個能力這個也是要有足夠的辯護的能力因為我們今天去包括蔣介石委員提出來的這個虐童這個現在新的這個提案叫做死刑或無期徒刑兩種而已啦 沒辦法所以如果剛剛提到這種"},{"start":5120.962,"end":5145.331,"text":"他人虐待,你還要說發刮痰,因為他精神障礙、心智缺陷也有強烈的證據,他過去也有就醫紀錄,都有他最後還是會判死刑跟無期徒刑,就沒有別的路可以走了是不是這要看那個個案,就是要回到刑法總則第19條就是說有沒有那個減刑的規定所以他還是有可能被減刑"},{"start":5147.62,"end":5168.086,"text":"結果大家看他很恐慌很恐慌然後那個影像大家看起來說這張的要死結果大家一般人的邏輯說這張的不怕死刑那會痛結果法官判的時候又回到說因為他精神障礙因為他心智缺陷因為怎麼樣怎麼樣所以沒有把他判無期也沒有把他判死刑你們認為呢全世界都這樣嗎還是今天我們台灣這樣而已這是"},{"start":5177.931,"end":5188.056,"text":"這是全世界都是這樣子的規定 另外還有身心障礙者權利公約就是這裡頭也有相關規定所以這個是民眾如果看到這個總共3人就說不爽 罵公公 怎麼可以這樣這個規定全世界就是這樣"},{"start":5199.81,"end":5221.91,"text":"對 而且他跟委員報告就是說在法律那個設計上除了刑罰之外他還有一個保安處分如果說他那個精神障礙有狀況的話沒有辦法負完全的這個責任的時候他還有保安處分譬如說讓他到什麼機構去去就醫或者是在一個地方有儲遇對 他是兩條軌道的一個儲遇方式"},{"start":5223.151,"end":5239.398,"text":"最後請部長部長 這個修法大家都很重視很多委員也提了相關的版本包括國民黨的黨團 黨團都提版本這事情說實在的也不能太拖今天討論 您說您長的長有討論 還有這兩天也討論所以您的版本要加速我們會盡快提出來"},{"start":5250.479,"end":5259.046,"text":"社會期待,你這樣又拖下去,因為我知道去年是有修了一個加重基礎,那可是這一段期間大家對這些案子,也是都吃不乾,希望說,我們的政府能夠拿出態度來"},{"start":5267.748,"end":5278.375,"text":"所以不能再拖,如果幾天就開會討論,就盡快有版本就盡快納進來討論,反正你懷疑6月、7月都還有會6月、7月都還有會,大家趕快做一個改革,下會我就接受不然這個事情拖拖刷刷,這個過程當中你如果再拖下去這個過程當中如果還有發生不幸的事情,這沒人擋下去"},{"start":5297.756,"end":5307.476,"text":"所以這可能法務部要加油好不好 謝謝委員我們加速 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":5320.35,"end":5329.226,"text":"好 主席我請我們司法院副秘書長 法務部部長以及衛福部政策 衛福部次長委員早安好早"},{"start":5334.178,"end":5358.184,"text":"部長先請教剛才幾位委員都特別關心到就是有關於我們刑法的修正我剛才在提案說明裡面特別講到在去年陸陸續續開始由我們的委員開始修法那麼國民黨團的各位委員一共有15個修法提案但是民進黨團的提案數是零"},{"start":5359.468,"end":5374.078,"text":"那麼在廣大的民意的壓力下尤其凱凱案激發眾怒終於法務部願意做回應剛才我也聽到第一個部長說要加快修法的腳步對不對是"},{"start":5375.259,"end":5395.042,"text":"第二個,我剛才有沒有聽錯,也就是把凌虐誘而致死的這個罪行的刑度,有可能提高到死刑,或者是無期徒刑,我有沒有聽錯?那的確是有這個規劃,那個立法的一個方向。"},{"start":5395.889,"end":5410.884,"text":"就是在刑法裡面針對七歲以下的幼兒 淋虐致死最高刑度會到死刑這部分是我們立法的一個方向 那我們有提出來做一個討論那這樣子會定案嗎這邊我想我們儘速來推動"},{"start":5416.789,"end":5433.148,"text":"那另外我請教一下因為我們的現在像我們為什麼非常想趕快加速來做修法因為這個凱凱案他的最新的判決已經出來了大家也看到全部沒有死刑嘛"},{"start":5433.829,"end":5461.035,"text":"對不對因為他最高度是無期對最高度也是無期徒刑而且隨著這個審判的過程把兩個保姆怎麼樣凌虐這麼小的孩子的這個過程也呈現在社會大眾的眼前大家覺得這麼殘忍這麼故意但是呢在我們的法律下仍然沒有辦法去判處死刑所以這個案子"},{"start":5461.835,"end":5475.288,"text":"激起了重怒所以我們也希望在司法法治委員會我們加快修法的角度我剛才也特別說了因為也等啊因為在這個這個網路平台上公民提議也提議了非常久那我們"},{"start":5477.19,"end":5503.23,"text":"左等右等法務部沒有提案出來所以呢由立法院 我們立法委員衛銘喉舌所以呢來回應社會大眾的期待所以我現在想請教部長我們這個會期預計是在七月底結束請問一下在我們會期結束之前法務部有可能行政院有可能把這個案子送到立法院來嗎"},{"start":5504.431,"end":5521.959,"text":"這部分我們會加速然後我們跟行政院來做一個報告然後我們想要來加速來推動我想可以盡快的來回應民眾的社會的一個期待那我想可以落實保護我們這個兒少的這些權利好那我也跟部長說沒辦法去容忍這被林內被搶害"},{"start":5523.513,"end":5540.969,"text":"因為真的沒有辦法再等了啦 真的沒有辦法再等了我們過去很多的女兒案件 很多的殘忍的女兒案件 一而再再而三的發生如果我們大人的世界沒有辦法保護我們的孩子 這是我們的失職這也是我們 真的變成我們很殘忍啦"},{"start":5546.974,"end":5572.166,"text":"是不是 所以在這邊告訴部長希望你們能夠非常非常快速因為基本上我們修法的進度我們今天如果能夠順利的送出就是送出我們的委員會的話因為我知道民進黨仍然是不同意嘛本來的話如果說大家都同意其實很快的我們這個就修法讓我們的孩子就已經"},{"start":5573.146,"end":5596.076,"text":"有這個至少呢在法律上能夠得到保護但是如果呢民進黨團仍然是不同意的話那又要使得這個法案要繼續的所謂的冷凍一個月嗎我真的覺得說如果今天我們因為的所謂的黨派之爭如果今天行政院已經都覺得這是一個修法的方向"},{"start":5596.556,"end":5616.914,"text":"那到時候我們在主條審查的時候你們就可以提出你們的修正動議了嘛對不對你們就可以提出你們的修正動議讓我們的法律加速進行沒有道理說今天還要我們一直等待你們啊是不是啊左等右等你不來怎麼辦所以在這邊呢也要跟大家報告是"},{"start":5617.995,"end":5647.03,"text":"部長你這邊最好就是你可能應該要有準備在我們逐條審查的時候那你們就提出你們的修正動議出來才能夠加速修法嘛部長同不同意這邊我們來努力好不好你們來努力一下因為我們真的不要一直等啦等來等去沒有意思好不好那也是我們的失職好另外喔那我也請那個我們的副秘書長"},{"start":5653.223,"end":5676.181,"text":"在法律裡面把凌虐誘而致死列入死刑或者是無期徒刑但是很多的國人的疑問是法律裡面有死刑又怎樣好 我們最近剛才這麼多的委員都提到列進死刑又怎麼樣因為第一個"},{"start":5678.029,"end":5697.356,"text":"大法官的解釋出來第一個法律有死刑他不會判死即便有一個就是比如一審的時候判死接下來呢到了高等法院要駁回要把他推翻"},{"start":5699.454,"end":5716.399,"text":"然後就算我們到目前為止啦我們這限派八號出來之後沒有一個判死的嘛到目前為止沒有一個判死而且很多是而且這裡面有幾個像這個2022年6月那個新竹的輪胎行縱火案然後燒死八名自己的親人啊"},{"start":5722.591,"end":5748.709,"text":"那大家都覺得罪無可換了一審判處死刑結果大法官宪判八號出來之後立刻又改判無期徒刑這就是第一個原來判死刑後來又改判無期徒刑的例子好 那你就算判了死刑之後然後再加上我們整個的從偵查到槍決"},{"start":5750.58,"end":5766.063,"text":"有八道關卡 八道的金牌 就是免死金牌 給你到真的要執行死刑 要有很多的關關卡卡所以我們在這邊 要請問一下 我們就請教司法院"},{"start":5769.514,"end":5798.503,"text":"對於法官來說我相信有很多法官要判死刑啊輾轉反側嘛輾轉反側如果以像我剛才講的新竹輪胎案一審判定罪無可赦判決死刑我相信這一審的法官你以為他是想隨便判死刑啊以現在的這種社會氣氛這幾年社會氣氛要判死刑不容易啊是不是但是他判了死刑之後因為我們的"},{"start":5800.623,"end":5824.399,"text":"大法官的解釋之後又不能夠去判處死刑又變成無期徒刑然後同樣的我們剛才也有特別提到馬來西亞的女大生也是一樣啊所以我們當然希望在修法裡面回應廣大民眾的期待但是如果這個實質廢死實質廢死沒有辦法解決的話"},{"start":5829.952,"end":5836.783,"text":"修法不足以自刑修法不足以保護我們的國人修法不足以保護我們的幼童啊有沒有解決的辦法"},{"start":5841.67,"end":5861.708,"text":"跟那個 跟委員報告齁在那個憲判八之後呢事實上那個法院就是在那個憲判八議職底下還是有宣告死刑的像那個高雄的那個殺鄰居夫妻的這個熊芬的114上重訴一號他在那個今年的三月十號就是有宣告那個死刑"},{"start":5862.208,"end":5877.689,"text":"那另外呢就是在那個雄芬的114親生重更二第一號的這個案件他在一省還有那個二省是在今年的1月15號也就是在現判八之後還是有宣告死刑的"},{"start":5878.189,"end":5906.77,"text":"那至於說就是剛才講就是這個案件就是馬來西亞女學生這個案件呢最高法院它撤銷它事實上會撤銷它一定是因為就是畢竟是一個死刑的判決它必須是完全沒有判決那個瑕疵所以是針對就是判決上的有一些瑕疵所以前面都有判決瑕疵前面都有判決瑕疵所以嘛我覺得對於我認為對於很多法官來講他們也很痛苦啊"},{"start":5908.548,"end":5930.397,"text":"一審 二審 到最高法院 又突然哪一個法官覺得你有瑕疵 或者他就是不願意判死那個報告委員齁 就是這個不只是在宣判八之後 向來就是各審級那個 尤其是最高法院 它已經是要那個定驗的一個審級了齁那所以說 面對就是宣判死刑 它當然是會比較嚴謹"},{"start":5931.798,"end":5955.028,"text":"所以這個以前就是說在那個上訴之後呢就是這個撤銷這個在過去也是我必須在這邊說啊第一個大法官不具民意基礎的大法官在在80%的民意的對立面做出了這樣的一個憲判吧使得我們的很多的公平正義司法的公平正義無法伸張"},{"start":5959.352,"end":5968.74,"text":"這真的太扯 然後我們希望能夠透過公投結果周選會又沒收公投沒收人民來做決定實在非常離譜啊"},{"start":5970.543,"end":5992.234,"text":"我們現在民意是大家不能講話嗎就如同我們現在在財委會也是一樣啊行政院要把這個地方補助款把它整個刪掉縣市政府都派員 甚至台南市也都有派人來啊就你們民進黨團在那邊不讓人家講話 不讓人家上去講話啊 到這種程度啊為什麼現在民意要刪招 民意要講話這麼困難呢"},{"start":6002.406,"end":6021.843,"text":"所以在這邊我當然知道中選會的判決不干你們的事情可是我必須要請我們在所有在司法每一個環節的人去想一想我們這些被害人被害人的家屬不要讓他們對於司法已經完全的喪失信心了"},{"start":6022.836,"end":6043.745,"text":"所以為什麼這些凱凱案的這些父母們除了他當然游說我相信他游說我們立法院所有的委員希望我們能夠修正刑法但是除此之外也能夠把這個一致決的實質廢死案也能夠得到解決啊"},{"start":6044.69,"end":6066.167,"text":"好 這個字也拜託我們所有在司法上每一個環節的人想著司法就是一個天平啊就是要保護國人的生命財產安全不要因為少數人的意志或者某個政黨的神主牌然後犧牲掉我們人民最基本的權益好 以上好 謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":6085.405,"end":6087.087,"text":"行事廳廳長也上來一下"},{"start":6108.516,"end":6134.285,"text":"我想幾位啊我今天聽了 早上聽了我們立法院幾位委員的這樣的一個詢答以後啊我是感慨很深啦 感慨很深立法院不是一個水準很高的地方但是立法院是一個多元民意的一個地方我最擔心的就是說我們今天提出來這個修法就是說叫做民意的伸張這句話聽起來真的是很可怕"},{"start":6135.64,"end":6146.212,"text":"為什麼說很可怕就是說民意常常像流水一樣不同的壓力團體不同的民團有它的一個主張那你站在司法部門"},{"start":6149.761,"end":6169.378,"text":"那你怎麼樣來採取什麼樣的一個名業我倒反而會覺得說正義要伸張啊你說虐童可不可惡可惡啊尤其是致死當然可惡啊要不要重判當然要重判啊但我最擔心的是什麼大家把那個概念給搞混掉了王一川坐在那個地方"},{"start":6172.554,"end":6190.152,"text":"我每天去捏他 我也是在把他捏他產生不了什麼效果他搞不好覺得我很討厭而已啊我一直捏一直捏一直捏一直捏捏捏到最後他搞不好輕傷一股藥而已啊搞不好我那個手段再狠一點他變重傷他有可能虐到最後他死掉"},{"start":6191.601,"end":6204.323,"text":"也就是一個行為裡面常常會隨著風險的提高產生不同的結果但是主觀到底要犯意是做些什麼"},{"start":6206.192,"end":6226.279,"text":"我要語重心長的講啦講出在今天這樣的一個修法講出不同見解的人壓力是特別的大特別的大像剛吳宗憲委員你也是法律人出身啊我對他的看法是他也完全顛覆我的看法我就不認同但是也請你聽聽看你都一直認為說這個構成要件啊這個法官啊不要被他給綁住了我要跟昭偉報告"},{"start":6233.581,"end":6254.528,"text":"我們一當代法學思想在強調的就是罪行法定主義你不要以為罪行法定主義是很古老的東西你罪行法定完為什麼叫罪行法定就是我要構成要件立法者用構成要件要綁住這些法官不能讓他愛怎麼判隨著他的情緒怎麼判就怎麼判那不行啊哪怕是檢察官依法打擊犯罪起訴了以後"},{"start":6261.943,"end":6264.109,"text":"你起訴的罪名法官都可以變更起訴法條啊都可以變更啊那所以說 沒有這個過程要見 我才怕咧"},{"start":6270.694,"end":6282.238,"text":"我們今天在講說 凌虐致死可不可惡 非常可惡 民主進步黨也認為非常可惡我認為法務部一定認為很可惡啊 司法院也認為很可惡啊 凌虐把人家凌虐致死怎麼會不可惡呢那我剛看各位 你們回答後 部長就很想去回答可是因為這個地方主戰場是立法院嘛 你們不能暢所欲言"},{"start":6293.041,"end":6318.719,"text":"那覆滅了又法官出身那你當然就不想多言啦那其實你們的判決書我都看過嘛你們寫的判決書是質地有深啊水準是非常高的啊可是到了立法院有時候礙於時間的因素你也不知道要怎麼說我就來進入主題啦你像譬如說以今天所提出來的你說凌虐虐童你說凌虐致死你說變成死刑跟無期徒刑我為什麼覺得"},{"start":6321.921,"end":6334.315,"text":"會顛覆現在的法學思潮就你去創設了一個我們一般講說殺人罪以現在來看的話在我們刑法體系個人侵害到個人法益是最高的犯罪"},{"start":6335.766,"end":6353.325,"text":"那你如果殺人罪你又沾泥,死刑無期徒刑沾泥,那你現在凌虐致死,那你創一個死刑跟無期徒刑,那你創設一個比殺人罪還更重的一個法律出來,這好奇怪,這個沒辦法說服我,我不曉得怎麼樣來說服我自己。"},{"start":6357.168,"end":6383.299,"text":"不能說我自己不是說我認為劣童之死是不可惡非常可惡但是體系上會錯亂所以我倒覺得刑法的正義它當然要去嚴懲但是也要符合比例原則那你用剝奪用非以奪命為目的的虐待的行為的法定刑你把它設定這個極刑"},{"start":6385.1,"end":6408.479,"text":"負面會不會有 你會不會覺得體系混亂的問題謝謝委員因為我贊同那個委員的那個意見因為凌略致死他之所以沒有構成殺人就是說他一剛開始的時候他不是一個殺人的一個翻譯是一個比較低的就是說像那個委員講的去捏他那所以就是說"},{"start":6410.34,"end":6437.019,"text":"所以說這兩個事實上它是有罪責相當的問題就是表現在它的法定形上它是有一個層次不一樣的所以我就知道你的意思了嘛但問題你們在這邊講不清楚在立法院我告訴你 你沒辦法講清楚反而你真正想我只要在立法院碰到重大爭議的法案我幾乎常常跟人家不一樣不知道我的頭腦長得奇怪還是怎麼樣我都覺得立法的東西啊"},{"start":6437.984,"end":6454.597,"text":"真的是不能民粹回應民意很重要但是呢但是兩邊在拉扯的時候你如果一個國家一個司法你沒有去把它守住這個整個法律的一個體系的話你會崩潰掉你真的會崩潰掉我再來舉例就好了啦"},{"start":6458.168,"end":6470.817,"text":"你說馬前總統執政的時候簽了兩公約嘛我也不談說兩公約要不要遵守的問題啦你那兩公約我們現在已經是內國化我們已經把它當成國內法囉那你光修這裡的話那好啦"},{"start":6475.697,"end":6492.928,"text":"那你兩公約裡面你講的裡面講的是在講說你締約國不得在批准公約時候其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪行轉變為死刑好那你兩條你受罷典你這個地方修那除非你那個地方也修除非我們也去修不是這樣子嗎所以我是覺得非常遺憾的地方就是說"},{"start":6503.649,"end":6508.113,"text":"大家看到這一些讓人痛恨的事情 其實大家心裡頭想法都一樣的啦虐童致死 我相信不管是中國國民黨 台灣民眾黨 或者民主進步黨大家都認為那個非常可惡 只是說這個法令怎麼樣來定你要定到說 虐童致死的 他就是一個刑法的太上條款"},{"start":6529.409,"end":6543.641,"text":"他定的比殺人罪還要重可是你又沒有辦法去說明說他的故意他不是基於殺人的故意他只是因為虐童到就死掉了所以那個叫做帝王刑法的帝王條款你要去這樣創設道理講清楚了以後我也沒有意見喔但是大家要先講清楚喔虐童可惡虐待直系血清尊精屬可不可惡"},{"start":6556.943,"end":6562.207,"text":"虐童致死啦 死刑無期徒刑啊把父母親把他虐待死了覺得沒有關係 比較輕一點這個也沒有辦法說服我這個也沒辦法說服我死 我在這邊再強調啊尤其是中國國民黨跟台灣民眾的朋友啊還有我們所謂的民團啊你們的意見 你們的憤怒 立法院你都聽見了但是我們談的是在談一個法律的一個體系啊"},{"start":6584.451,"end":6604.363,"text":"你說死掉了啦我們一般在講就是說每一次犯罪大家都講說到底衝擊到什麼樣的一個法義大一的學生最喜歡提這個所有的個人的法義集合到最後才去提到什麼國家法義那不管那我的意思就是說你這樣譬如說人死掉了誰讓他死掉的如果你是碰到一個14歲以下的讓他死掉的連刑法都沒有了"},{"start":6613.098,"end":6630.246,"text":"死掉了可不可憐 好可憐欸你對這些家屬怎麼去做一個彌補 是喔這個時候如果說家裡頭又沒有錢了 那怎麼辦被害人真的是很痛苦啊那如果這是致死的行為人 剛好是14歲以下的養母熊 國無賽如果碰到的是一個80歲以上的去殺人的 你刑法設計又必檢"},{"start":6640.182,"end":6652.075,"text":"所以產生死亡的結果他有很多原因那這個行為人這個加害者有很多不同的態樣啊產生出來不是產生叫做必死 不會啊不然我們刑法為什麼從總則邊開始去做一個設計要講罪責"},{"start":6660.202,"end":6672.89,"text":"然後呢再到最後用這個過程要件把整個法律人給綁住不能讓你心情想到哪裡你覺得你很痛苦啊這個很可惡就給你亂判判處即行那也不行"},{"start":6673.971,"end":6691.459,"text":"那也不行所以我倒覺得說今天啊這樣的一個修法裡面啊我絕對支持啊這個強化兒童的一個保護杜絕孽童的行為我相信各個政黨大家都一樣但是讓刑法變成社會情緒的一個出口把他整個刑法的體系把它給崩潰掉善思啦我覺得這個要善思啦尤其是大家法律人都講說這個要有比例原則啊"},{"start":6702.438,"end":6718.002,"text":"我特別去查了不少的一個案例啊不少的一個案例啊我看最高法院有時候在講凌虐致死的部分這致死的部分他到最後也會去提升到用殺人罪去判你像譬如說我去當人家的保姆"},{"start":6723.581,"end":6740.592,"text":"我當保姆去把人家凌虐 把他扣毒他要把他扣毒 過夜或過午而已 也不安全也許會妨礙到他身心的一個健康健全的發展這個觸犯到刑罰那如果凌虐到最後他受傷了風險慢慢在提高有人去報警了 他怕警察追啊好啊 不要把他救 把他帶走小孩子死掉了"},{"start":6753.601,"end":6756.825,"text":"我看最高法院也有判處殺人罪死掉 虐童行為太陽很多啊可能是基於 我就是自己哭動而已啊有的人就是哭了 到最後輕傷有變成死人重傷然後到最後有可能產生死亡的結果"},{"start":6771.428,"end":6793.299,"text":"他因為他是一個保姆所以他有基於保證人的地位你看到他要死可能會死你去讓他死掉你不去救他你那個風險慢慢去提升這個基於保證人的地位法官會認為說那你就產生你這個跟殺人的未必故意是一樣的判處死刑這種判決我也看到了我認為這個判決很正確啊所以未必什麼都是一定要"},{"start":6799.955,"end":6817.98,"text":"死刑要提升到死刑也可以我認為也可以可是去創設一個比殺人罪還更高的帝王條款真的要善失但重點還是在哪裡呢我還是覺得還是在法官給他獨立審判的空間我個人都不認為死刑是最最最嚴重的處罰"},{"start":6827.15,"end":6839.634,"text":"我認為最可惡的人要是我來判的話我不判死刑我判他無期徒刑讓他生不如死我們乾脆立法院來設定一個很可惡的除了死刑以外要加一個無期徒刑每天叫出來遊街示眾讓民意來宣洩這樣好嗎但可以思考喔"},{"start":6854.744,"end":6870.121,"text":"所以我會覺得 各位啊 今天碰到這個議題 你們都不方便講啦但是我要再強調 虐童行為要杜絕 虐童行為要重判這一題不是政治題目"},{"start":6871.4,"end":6879.408,"text":"這一題不是政治題目各個政黨不用去互相吐口水這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題啦很抱歉啦實在是我的才疏學淺啦不敢看夠啦剛才我其實我自認為啊我這個法學跟"},{"start":6888.858,"end":6912.616,"text":"複密 跟廳長 跟部長 跟你們比較應該都會很生疏啦只是 這些基本的幾百年來法學的一個時潮還有法律人必須要嚴守的這些基本的原理還是要慎重啦不然 你說他可不可惡 我覺得很可惡啊要把他判到死刑 我贊成欸"},{"start":6913.891,"end":6927.659,"text":"如果法官認為他已經提升到一個殺人的未必故意的當然可以把他判給你也同樣要判處死刑也可以啊你這個基於殺人之故意直接判你殺人罪就好啊我來判我敢判他死刑啊但重點是重點是說要把他提升一個獨立的一個帝王條款都不去問他本身當初他的主觀的翻譯是什麼就是死刑跟無期徒刑兩個可以選擇這個可能有待考慮而且"},{"start":6941.604,"end":6957.247,"text":"跟我們整個國內法的一個會不會產生衝突我再強調一次不是要不要遵守兩公約的問題兩公約已經是國內法了那我們在修法的時候就算這個地方要過其實應該要同時是兼顧到別的法律衝突的問題啦以上 謝謝好 謝謝總委員那下一位我們請審法會委員發言"},{"start":6979.987,"end":7005.214,"text":"主席各位同仁我想今天其實我們召委設定這個議題其實有很多很多問題可以談這也有一部分這個目前社會民眾的情緒那有更多的部分是專業的法律的探討其實一個一個議題都我是剛剛蠻佩服莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":7006.454,"end":7025.122,"text":"在這裡把這個就這個目前虐童刑度的調整的部分他把這些在學術上面有一些的不同的考慮在這邊把它提出來那我也覺得這樣子議題是今天這個主題其實值得大家好好的來討論其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間才有辦法討論這麼多的議題"},{"start":7030.199,"end":7057.647,"text":"那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要了像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論"},{"start":7058.769,"end":7082.377,"text":"那除了這個虐童案的這個刑度的修法,今天另外病案討論這列的主題,其實一個一個問題都有很多可以討論包括這個法官,就是這個死刑的量刑準則,包括這個被害的影響陳述,這是第二個議題包括教化的可能性,復歸社會的可能性,這又是一個議題,第三個議題第四個議題,量刑前的社會調查,甚至鑑定,又是第五個議題"},{"start":7083.257,"end":7099.152,"text":"所以這每一個議題其實都很值得討論那我想我這個在這裡剩下其實時間真的很少不過我還是在這裡盡量的我們來想跟司法院這邊請司法院副秘書長想跟司法院來討論一下我們相關的這些問題"},{"start":7104.927,"end":7122.378,"text":"副院長,我剛剛所列出的幾個問題,我一個一個來跟副院長討論有關死刑的量刑的準則,事實上依照國民法官法第五條,目前我們如果是"},{"start":7124.107,"end":7144.361,"text":"要判死刑的案件事實上都一定是有國民法官參審的對不對是是嘛對所以也就是說這個我們現這個113年憲判第8號提出的這個所謂這個判決判處死刑必須要由這個何怡婷法官一致決這何怡婷法官一致決她指的是"},{"start":7145.161,"end":7172.371,"text":"職業法官 就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子"},{"start":7173.604,"end":7194.553,"text":"所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個"},{"start":7195.573,"end":7221.86,"text":"職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人"},{"start":7223.16,"end":7232.503,"text":"紅疫就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人"},{"start":7240.505,"end":7267.17,"text":"訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分他整個是訴訟參與人的意見陳述那這些意見陳述事實上訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實還有分不同的部分他光講一個說被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分"},{"start":7268.134,"end":7277.839,"text":"他也可以 也要做意見陳述嘛 這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論 辯論科型的時候 他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁"},{"start":7284.591,"end":7309.83,"text":"最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分"},{"start":7311.171,"end":7316.857,"text":"一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個"},{"start":7320.646,"end":7347.379,"text":"但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計"},{"start":7348.579,"end":7366.682,"text":"跟委員報告 就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢 先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人 譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這一段話那他的評價是什麼 就是他的用意是什麼"},{"start":7367.543,"end":7385.074,"text":"就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多這個部分這個職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導才讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於這個被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導啦這個部分"},{"start":7386.374,"end":7408.289,"text":"這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性這類在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個"},{"start":7411.031,"end":7429.858,"text":"所謂的教化可能性最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性但是我們這個教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有對不對教化可能性如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化對不對"},{"start":7433.391,"end":7456.379,"text":"其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性對 其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分都用教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的"},{"start":7458.754,"end":7461.397,"text":"這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20,簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式,"},{"start":7474.107,"end":7489.678,"text":"那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁"},{"start":7491.138,"end":7506.163,"text":"這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上這個我剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的"},{"start":7507.742,"end":7530.258,"text":"在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告它只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這個鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明"},{"start":7532.279,"end":7561.626,"text":"在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引"},{"start":7566.756,"end":7594.215,"text":"跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準"},{"start":7595.456,"end":7609.392,"text":"這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來的立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度"},{"start":7610.553,"end":7627.61,"text":"那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條第7項到第10項的部分後面還有很多我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則"},{"start":7628.936,"end":7641.521,"text":"的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個100在在111年12月院會齁我們"},{"start":7645.243,"end":7661.905,"text":"院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼"},{"start":7662.813,"end":7691.484,"text":"好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠"},{"start":7692.847,"end":7715.71,"text":"我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出一個書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好好 是的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員好 再下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":7729.059,"end":7742.475,"text":"好主席好這邊有請王複密麻煩複密李廳長抱歉是刑事廳的李大仁廳長好謝謝你"},{"start":7752.116,"end":7763.088,"text":"這個這次立法院所提出的針對反廢死的公投俗稱反廢死的公投那麼很遺憾中選會既然他這個"},{"start":7765.194,"end":7786.427,"text":"對於立法院所提出的公投進行審查同時呢又拒絕辦理立法院所提出的公投我在這裡要借這個機會要譴責中選會他根本無權審查那麼也無權拒絕辦理立法院所交付的公投這個已經是這個明顯的違法違反"},{"start":7788.269,"end":7810.165,"text":"公投法的相關的規定那麼當然這次中選會他主要認為說我們立法院所提出的這個公投就是你是否同意對於這個各級法院法官判處死刑不需要一致決的這個議題他認為這不是重大政策"},{"start":7811.285,"end":7824.637,"text":"而是属于立法原则创制那当然对于中选会我就刚刚已经一开始就说他根本无权审查到底立法院所出的公投案是属于哪个性质"},{"start":7825.66,"end":7849.268,"text":"坦白說他真的沒有權利去進行審查更何況我們這次所提出的公投的命題也非常清楚他就是涉及到一個重大政策重大立法政策重大立法政策這個立法原則的創制其實也是完全不同的概念所以我在這裡我想請教就是說因為在現在法院組織法105條裡面清楚的規定"},{"start":7853.123,"end":7858.061,"text":"法官評議是以過半數的意見決定之那麼如果說是"},{"start":7860.595,"end":7882.764,"text":"這個法官的意見有分三說以上的話那麼他有一些相關的規定就是要針對不同的這個意見然後來進行這個按照順序來進行表決那麼所以有關於法院組織法105條的這樣子的一個規定未來如果要修正"},{"start":7884.031,"end":7905.988,"text":"我們要檢討 譬如說到底對於法官過半數評議的這樣子的一個決定的標準是不是應該要改採三分之二 四分之三 乃至於一致決的這樣子一個修改請問 複密 您認為這是不是屬於一個重大的立法政策"},{"start":7908.513,"end":7928.299,"text":"那個報告委員因為那個中選會那個決定這個我們尊重他們職權行使這個我們司法院不方便那個評論但是在線那個因為主制法105條是是因為那個憲判8呢他有關於就是死刑一致決這個是他那個判決主文所宣示"},{"start":7929.119,"end":7950.301,"text":"那我們那個司法院是基於憲法訴訟法第38條第一項就是它那個規定說那個憲法法庭的判決有拘束各機關及人民的效力那各機關有實現判決內容的義務所以說這個法院組織法105條這個規定呢目前我們也有在那個做那個研議修法的研議"},{"start":7952.382,"end":7979.567,"text":"當然本席在這裡我要提出其實我對於憲法 憲判制八號判決是極不認同簡單來說我根本認為它就是一個違憲的憲法判決它的大法官已經把手深入立法權 介入立法政策的形成那麼這部分其實憲判制八號的判決我相信未來如果換了一批大法官的話這號判決可能會被推翻"},{"start":7980.855,"end":8008.723,"text":"那麼更何況這當然在德國有不同的法學裡也都認為說不見得大法官他的這個憲法判決是可以拘束立法機關的那麼所以接下來的這個修法會如何提案那當然我本期這裡也會提案修法那麼當然我更期待的是很快就可以看到司法院然後乃至於這法務部的這個相關的修法請問現在司法院"},{"start":8009.483,"end":8033.403,"text":"已經有針對相關的修法有進行已經開始進行討論了嗎有沒有召開過公聽會對外召開公聽會我們是召開諮詢會因為那個範圍比較小然後內容也比較特定所以是召開諮詢會已經進行了三次了所以你們只是召開專家學者諮詢會議是但是你們都沒有對外召開公聽會目前沒有"},{"start":8034.504,"end":8036.166,"text":"你們考量是什麼?這個議題難道不是涉及跟我們廣大民眾權益有關的議題嗎?"},{"start":8042.406,"end":8067.96,"text":"我想王蜂蜜很清楚知道 憲判48號做出來之後尤其對於這個法官要不要判處死刑 自覺的這個事情已經引起了全國民眾 非常多民眾而且尤其是被害者家屬的不滿那這樣的議題上面難道不需要邀請相關的團體來進行一起討論嗎報告委員 這個部分因為我們是依據那個憲判8他那個主文所揭示的那個內容"},{"start":8069.932,"end":8090.066,"text":"所做的那個修法所以就是說基於大法官的決定那麼根本就也不需要再跟民眾對話民眾溝通司法院難道不需要負責去幫忙這個大法官去說服民眾去接受一致決的判決"},{"start":8091.823,"end":8115.13,"text":"當然也知道其實現在整個民意是反彈的然後我們立法院要提出公投然後希望讓民眾能夠透過這次機會能夠來表達自己的意見可是中選會莫名其妙它明明就是一個小小的二級的行政機關竟然還有權力來否決立法院所提出的公投這是非常不恰當的"},{"start":8117.215,"end":8142.812,"text":"那么司法院你们作为法院组织法的主管机关你们为了要提出修法在这个议题上面本席认为说司法院还是应该要召开公听会即便你们知道可能以你们的立场不太可能会去做出跟大法官判决相违背的修法建议但是在这个过程当中就是一个很好的民众"},{"start":8143.732,"end":8155.192,"text":"相互溝通然後說服民眾或是怎麼樣把大法官的意見能夠說給民眾聽我在這裡是不是要求司法院應該要召開公聽會"},{"start":8157.075,"end":8181.441,"text":"這個我們部分我們回去演繹我要再提醒就是司法的這個人民對司法的信賴對司法的了解其實就是在這個相互的政策的溝通的過程當中一步一步的進行如果司法院完全不聆聽民意不去進行相關法案溝通的話我覺得這是非常"},{"start":8182.381,"end":8204.215,"text":"我會寫一件事情然後接下來我要再談的就是有關於在大法官宪判這八號做成之後有關於一致決的部分在適用在國民法官的審理案件上面所出現的矛盾那麼依照這個你們現在司法院最新在網頁上面公告的說明未來對於可能判處死刑的案件"},{"start":8205.543,"end":8234.571,"text":"必須要由國民法官至少要有三個人以上以及法官三個人同意才可以判處死刑是那麼其實依照你們這樣子的一個一個認定依照大法官的這個憲判制的八號所做出來的這樣子的一個說明其實它會凸顯一個問題就是如果說未來國民法官有六個人都是做出了一致決的判死決定"},{"start":8236.017,"end":8263.782,"text":"然後呢其中這三位職業法官兩個是贊成要判處死刑一個是不贊成判處死刑那麼就代表說這個案子是根本不成立對不對就會變成是九位國民法官加兩位職業法官總共九票是贊成判處死刑但是一票是不同意就全盤否認了否決了可以判處死刑的可能性"},{"start":8265.283,"end":8280.712,"text":"我想王富明應該會知道像這樣子的一個這個評議決定做成之後他可能會引起整個社會大眾輿論的反彈那更重要的是本席也認為這跟你當時成立國民法官制度就是要這個"},{"start":8283.993,"end":8308.534,"text":"制定國民法官法引進國民法官是有很大的矛盾衝突你們自己的當時國民法官法在做宣導的時候還說國民法官是實現你心中的正義結果有嗎依照現在憲判自8號這個判決做成之後國民法官可以實現他們心中的正義嗎顯然沒有嘛"},{"start":8315.85,"end":8333.127,"text":"所以我真的認為司法院其實應該要去好好的去思考怎麼去解決國民法官的這個問題未來修法是不是一定要叫三位法官 職業法官一定要一致決的這部分"},{"start":8334.636,"end":8347.034,"text":"要進行好好的研析否則的話我認為這樣的一個決定基本上呢事實上就等於是保護了那個極少數的否決權"},{"start":8349.059,"end":8361.614,"text":"那事實上大法官憲判這八號判決本來就是在保護司法的少數暴力我個人認為是這樣那麼這個是急不妥的那本席希望說你們可以考慮這個問題然後最後還有一個議題比較簡單"},{"start":8366.449,"end":8379.184,"text":"本席之前有參加生命權平等協會的座談會也聆聽了他們對於強化被害人家屬權益的九大訴求那麼當然其中特別是有關於強化被害人訴訟參與權的"},{"start":8381.326,"end":8403.621,"text":"事項那我認為很重要這本性未來也會負責任的提出相關的修法可是呢這當中其實強化被害人訴訟參與權不見得只是這個一定要透過修法有些事情似乎是司法院你現在就可以立即進行改善的譬如說被害人及家屬在法庭上面的席位的問題"},{"start":8404.862,"end":8431.223,"text":"我想王富明或許也知道其實在過去已經有非常多的被害者家屬團體以及也有一些司法事務界的人士都紛紛的提出對於整個在法庭上面的席位的安排非常不利於被害人以及被害人家屬那麼這個部分其實是司法院直接修改"},{"start":8432.657,"end":8442.55,"text":"法庭席位布置規則就可以改善的不知道司法院這些年來有聆聽到這些民眾的聲音嗎"},{"start":8444.54,"end":8468.848,"text":"有沒有試圖的要去改善現在的席位這個部分因為目前的訴訟關係它還是一個三角結構就是在刑事部分檢察官跟那個被告這邊還有那個法院是那個審判者那那個被害人他當然他有他的地位可是因為他並不是當事人所以說他不坐在這個檢察官這個席位"},{"start":8470.128,"end":8473.09,"text":"對我們看一下國民法官因為現在你們的這個位置基本上對不起回到前一頁在刑庭的部分的話這個被害人及他的帶領是坐在類似證人鑑定人的位置但是在國民法官的這個法庭的配置上面來講的話他現在是坐在檢察官的後面嘛"},{"start":8488.317,"end":8515.066,"text":"這也是大家會認為說你們當時在修國民法官法的時候有說要參考日本跟德國的制度但日本跟德國的制度我們看下面圖在日本很清楚啊他的被害參加人就坐在檢察官旁邊啊那在德國法上基本上也是參加這個檢察官旁邊或者是說是他如果說看他如果說真的變成證人身份有時候會在證人的席次但是總是不是在檢察官的後面"},{"start":8515.626,"end":8539.042,"text":"我覺得這個部分會有什麼困難嗎現在就是如果被害人他透過那個訴訟參加的話那他會取得程序上那個地位對他這時候就會坐在檢察官的旁邊就如同這個圖就如日本的配置嗎對那可是如果說是他就是這個作為一個被害人的家屬他如果沒有參與訴訟的話那麼他"},{"start":8542.301,"end":8569.406,"text":"可以就是應該是他變成成為證人是不是就是他如果說有可能證人或者是說是他可能不具這個身份但是他就只能夠坐在一般的旁聽席就要看他程序上那個地位他有可能那一天是用那個證人身份出現那或者只是說就是這個被函陳述意見那但是只要他只要他就是有那個參與訴訟的話他就會取得程序上的地位"},{"start":8570.399,"end":8597.438,"text":"那所以我想很多被害人的家属可能不太知道在程序上面要怎么去进行那么事实上就是我们也听到很多被害人家属团结反应他们认为在整个诉讼进行上面变成被害人家属的时候他们连发言权都没有那么更何况就是说在位置的配置上面来讲也是凸显出对他们的地位的不尊重那么我认为说其实司法院这边应该要这个检讨要改善"},{"start":8598.098,"end":8611.105,"text":"包委員那個我們就是刑事案件在那個準備程序的時候第一庭一開始的時候其實都有告訴那個就會發一個這個訴訟權益告知給被害人跟告訴人那這裡頭其實就有告訴他們說他們可以透過那個訴訟參加來進入到這個訴訟"},{"start":8617.589,"end":8628.316,"text":"就是有沒有可能未來把他們的位置然後放在檢察官的旁邊或是更靠近對不對讓大家會感覺他們的地位是平等的我想因為這個議題我希望就司法院是不是可以給我一份報告檢討報告然後參閱日本跟德國的做法是如何然後可以來就現在我剛講的這個司法院的"},{"start":8639.443,"end":8650.298,"text":"法院的這個席位規則然後進行修改提一個方案出來吧好不好我們要尊重這個被害人還有被害人家屬他們的聲音總是在"},{"start":8651.844,"end":8670.83,"text":"盡可能的在法律的地位 法庭的地位上面給他們一個公平的待遇好 那麻煩一個禮拜給我一份報告 好 謝謝好 那我們先做會議宣告因為快11點了 所以我們待會在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後我們休息五分鐘就好 五分鐘讓官員能夠上個廁所我"},{"start":8679.612,"end":8701.619,"text":"好好好沒問題那這樣子OK那應該這樣不會因為我大家都會抓在11點讓大家上個廁所不會那就在那個無效委員訓導完畢之後我們休息5分鐘好那另外就會議時間我們中午不休息我們上午的會議是持續進行至本日議程所列事項處理完畢為止好那我們接下來請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":8710.287,"end":8713.992,"text":"有請法務部長還有司法院副秘書長麻煩部長副秘書長委員長"},{"start":8720.629,"end":8741.223,"text":"今天的主題是討論死刑量刑準則希望建立一套相關的判準來減少相似個案間判刑卻不同的爭議這當然是一個正確的改革方向但我今天要提一些實際的數據跟法務部還有司法院的同仁們一起討論"},{"start":8742.364,"end":8760.82,"text":"那我先請教一下我們的司法院以刑法271條第一項故意殺人罪來看近年來判處死刑或無期徒刑的比例以及有期徒刑的平均刑度是上升還是下降司法院知道嗎"},{"start":8764.724,"end":8787.821,"text":"那個今年還沒有統計 那我們會後會提出數據給委員好 那我這邊有整理一部分啦是以地方法院的數據來看 2015年132個罪次裡面 判死的佔3.8%無期徒刑17.4那有期徒刑平均判刑是149.35個月"},{"start":8791.323,"end":8812.203,"text":"那去年一到八月的數據死刑你知道是多少嗎判多少個死刑百分之多少在所有罪次裡面我告訴你零啦沒有啦那無期徒刑是19.4%啦有期徒刑平均判刑是140.41個月比如說"},{"start":8817.213,"end":8842.759,"text":"以2015跟去年來對比的話判死的佔比從3.8降到0然後無期徒刑是從17.4提高到19.4那有期徒刑的平均判刑是從149.35個月下降到140.41個月所以看到整體刑度實際上是下滑"},{"start":8843.399,"end":8858.268,"text":"尤其是在死刑這個部分事實上在台灣基本上為什麼外面都說大家評價是實質廢死因為從比例跟數據來看他就是已經歸零實質廢死在判決的部分"},{"start":8859.329,"end":8879.844,"text":"那當然每一個判刑要看每個個案而定也不能完全用平均數據來去解讀不過整體趨勢來看的話就是殺人罪的刑度下降不只是判死的比例連刑期都是那這當然也是為什麼我剛剛前面講外界一直在批評說"},{"start":8881.025,"end":8909.696,"text":"實質廢死的一個問題那我再想要請教那今天排審的是刑法286條就是虐待兒少致死罪那因為這十年來就2015到2024年只有一件無期徒刑那我想請問一下司法院針對這一個所謂的虐待兒少致死罪這幾年判處有期徒刑的平均刑度您知道是上升還是下降嗎"},{"start":8912.802,"end":8927.452,"text":"這部分我們手上沒有資料可以匯後提供我們這邊也調出一些數據一樣是以地方法院數據來看的話2021年有期徒刑平均刑度是63.6個月到2024年就剩下26個月"},{"start":8932.495,"end":8948.725,"text":"雖然說刑法286的使用比例很低但從2015年到2024年10年總共只有57件平均一年5件多但在這近10年裡98件罪次裡無期徒刑1件"},{"start":8949.545,"end":8969.902,"text":"被判五年以上有期徒刑者18件 佔比不到兩成一年以下大概是53件 佔比是五成四那一樣也面對我剛剛前面講的問題就是說不管是地方法院判決 高等法院判決 最高法院判決那也看到觸犯虐待兒少致死的刑度都有在下降"},{"start":8970.623,"end":8986.079,"text":"那這就說外界為什麼會有一些覺得我們似乎整個國家法制對於兒童的保護並不周全你光從形式保障來看的話就外面就有人覺得說兒童是最脆弱的最需要保護的"},{"start":8986.88,"end":9015.429,"text":"但是在刑法來去所謂的遏止對於兒童的肆虐重大的一個傷害的這種情況實際上我們的保護相對來講從這個整個的判刑的一個刑度來看外界可能就認為有所不足那這個是我看到一個問題那當然去年7月16號就已經修正有提高刑度啦但是目前還沒有適用刑法的判決出現嘛對不對目前還沒有啦"},{"start":9018.816,"end":9042.182,"text":"應該是還沒有 因為時間上的關係沒有啦 因為現在還剛剛而已嘛 對不對以那個訴訟程序來看不會那麼快那所以 但是根據內政部的資料家外受虐致死人數比起113年修法前後數 修法前是零人啦那修法後是出現三個案例那去年跟今年我都有提出相關的修法版本 新的版本"},{"start":9042.802,"end":9061.577,"text":"才剛剛一讀 還沒有納到這次審理那我的修法重點包括針對死刑對於7歲以上未滿12歲之人肆虐致死傷可以加重刑期到二分之一就是說有在刑徒的部分希望能夠解決目前實務上判刑過輕的問題那我要想請問法務部您覺得"},{"start":9066.461,"end":9083.973,"text":"這個部長你覺得我剛剛講的這些司法院的數據不管從死刑啊從故意殺人罪乃到於虐待兒童致死罪啊你覺得這個一直在刑度一直在下降判刑的這個所謂的那個強度一直在下降我不知道法務部是怎麼看這件事情跟社會期待"},{"start":9084.813,"end":9102.706,"text":"是不是有落差以現行的來講的話那我們希望這個對兒童的保護一定要非常的完備那零容忍那有對一些零內或者傷害兒童甚至殺害的所以我們是認為要嚴懲不要我想這是一個形式的態度跟政策"},{"start":9103.587,"end":9129.275,"text":"那這一次的一個凱案那我們覺得是我們對 我們也在檢視說我們的法規是不是有要更充實的一個地方所以我們也在做一個研修一個研修 所以昨日跟明天我們都有一個研修的一個會議那我們也希望把我們的研修的一個立法的方向跟各界來做一個對話那我想我們會盡快提出我們的一個版本出來"},{"start":9129.955,"end":9152.227,"text":"那就謝謝部長,因為我在質詢的時候,我覺得你態度基本上我也有肯定,至少你要往這方向去做。那我想請教,因為上次法務部承諾三個月可以提出版本,這個承諾還是沒改變嗎?對,我們是三個月要提出,希望能夠提出。那我再問細一點,就是說修法的方向目前會包括針裂死刑嗎?"},{"start":9153.563,"end":9173.259,"text":"修好的方向對那個我們是認為對未滿7歲的兒童的零列上次我在委員會就有提到如果以零列這部分來當作殺人的方法我認為這個是要脫離那個加重結果患的一個問題認為直接進入到殺人的一個加重的一個室友那這部分我們是希望能夠有再加重的一個行動"},{"start":9175.1,"end":9200.279,"text":"考量嘛 死刑的部分有考量在裡面那個殺人罪如果說以這個凌劣的方式來殺人那本來就是有死刑的一個選項了嘛一個刑度 那這部分我們會往這部分來做一個再加重的一個考量因為這個那個加重結果犯因為究竟不是殺人的一個範例下去凌劣的方式有可能是傷害或者甚至用殺人的"},{"start":9200.979,"end":9222.588,"text":"直接故意或間接故意這個都有那如果說有這部分的話我們就納入了殺人的範疇來做一個規範反正基本上方向跟部長已經有一些基礎共識啦但是修法上法務部就是往這個方向怎麼去更周延去看對因為還有那個不得假釋這部分我們也有納入做這邊的一個考量"},{"start":9223.448,"end":9238.085,"text":"那我最後再提醒一下我們根據衛福部的資料統計2024年兒童跟少年光家內跟家外受虐致死人數就高達33人是9年新高33人說真的看了都很難過啦"},{"start":9239.666,"end":9259.944,"text":"因為小孩子其實最沒有能力保護自己結果他們卻面對到這麼大的一個風險你說光2024年就有33個在家內跟家外受虐致死其實坦白講真的是非常讓人家心痛所以換言之不是只有一個凱凱他其實有去年就這個2024年就有33個凱凱"},{"start":9262.446,"end":9290.136,"text":"而且是九年來的新高那這個嚴重程度當然不完全說今天透過我們法務部或法院的判決還包括我們整個政府對於所謂的受虐兒童的保護的機制都要做系統性的檢討跟反省因為真的不能讓這樣的一個悲劇一直在發生在兒童身上那最後我要講就是說事實上目前兒少的虐待事件其實真的蠻嚴重那政府"},{"start":9291.076,"end":9305.862,"text":"應該要拿出足夠的魄力跟決心 那請我們的法務部也好 司法院也好 一起加油好 謝謝您 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言吳思堯委員發言完畢之後 我們休息五分鐘好 謝謝主席 有請複密還有部長"},{"start":9319.77,"end":9321.411,"text":"麻煩副秘書長 部長委員長好 大家辛苦了大法官憲法法庭針對台灣沒有廢除死刑我們死刑是核限的這個解釋出來之後這段時間立法院司法法治委員會對於廢死的議題我們討論過非常多次"},{"start":9345.549,"end":9373.686,"text":"那我認為每一次的對話都非常的珍貴我們可以再透過我們的詢答清楚的讓社會知道台灣沒有非死死刑是核限的下一頁所以說113宪判8的結果是核限性的解釋但是要強化法律的程序跟制度的保障這些部分我已經論述過N次了我也相信台灣社會有更正確的認知下一頁"},{"start":9375.185,"end":9404.211,"text":"那立法院要做的是什麼呢跟行政部門要做的是什麼呢就是第一個要尊重憲法法庭的判決這第一件事沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面針對憲法所規定的解釋憲法的唯一權力就是司法院的憲法法庭所以沒有人可以來站在憲法法庭判決的對立面所以立法院行政部門要做的第一件事情就是要尊重憲法法庭"},{"start":9404.591,"end":9433.503,"text":"的結果而不是用任何方式要去推翻它去挑戰它所以我們要做的除了尊重之外就是要啟動必要的制度配套這是我們眼前另外一個要務不管是如何避免冤獄的產生如何來防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責而且來推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化我也講過N次這是我們立法委員跟行政部門的工作下頁所以說我們要修法"},{"start":9434.944,"end":9450.137,"text":"針對刑法 刑事訴訟法 法院組織法監獄刑刑 刑刑法我們要謹慎的來修法而在修法的過程持續不斷的跟社會溝通跟人民對話所以這些都在進程當中嘛 對不對"},{"start":9451.997,"end":9466.425,"text":"所以我要說的是尊重憲法法庭的判決不要亂帶風向給社會不必要的錯誤認知立法委員要做的是做好我們的本業修法下一頁但是呢"},{"start":9469.932,"end":9488.932,"text":"在野黨要提出反Face的公投消費公共議題為了他的政治目的公投要綁罷免這一頁PPT我也拿出來用過N次而當中選會認為在野黨所提出的兩個公投案一勝一負"},{"start":9490.017,"end":9516.373,"text":"有通過也有駁回不成立的這就代表中選會對於公投案行使本身合理不合理合法不合法一勝一負嘛所以合三言一公投是可以進行的但是反廢死公投因為這個違反公投法的規範中選會予以駁回在野黨的委員現在要對中選會提起行政訴訟"},{"start":9517.967,"end":9532.383,"text":"我們都尊重下一頁但是呢還是要說請把憲法讀好憲法78條的規定司法院有解釋憲法的唯一權利大法官釋字185號"},{"start":9534.325,"end":9549.024,"text":"憲法增修條文的12條還有公投法的第二條都要服從憲法的規定所以憲法的解釋等同於憲法公投並不能夠否決憲判複密是不是這樣"},{"start":9553.476,"end":9564.868,"text":"所以公投不能否決憲判那您認為現在在野黨的委員對於中選會要提起行政訴訟他們不服啊他們認為散費死的公投怎麼可以不成立呢要分享一下你的觀點"},{"start":9567.761,"end":9583.389,"text":"這個我們尊重那個委員他們職權的那個行使只是這個部分就是在那個除了委員剛剛所講的這些依據之外在那個限訴法38條第一項也有講就是憲法法院的那個判決呢還有拘束各機關跟人類的效力那這個機關也有實現判決內容的義務"},{"start":9586.611,"end":9606.559,"text":"所以說在野黨委員所提的這個反廢死的公投我姑且不論他有沒有政治的目的要來救罷免來做政治動員我姑且不論他就是違法違憲嘛違反憲法違反大法官釋字的解釋違反公民投票法也違反憲法訴訟法嘛"},{"start":9608.18,"end":9635.973,"text":"所以說憲法解釋等同於憲法公投不能夠來否決憲判我要再一次清楚的透過我的質詢負責任的向所有的公民朋友來清楚的再次表達所以這些話我們早在在野黨執意推反廢死公投之前不聽民進黨的絕對沒問題民主不是一定要聽誰的但不聽民進黨的可以聽聽學者專家的意見吧"},{"start":9637.834,"end":9652.249,"text":"陳英前教授 蘇紫橋教授 林佳和副教授都提出了在在野黨推出反廢死公投之前都已經提出警示了不要把公投當作綁裝的工具當作政治的操作"},{"start":9653.453,"end":9681.003,"text":"此行並未違憲而是設定了更嚴苛的標準不要用公投來推翻憲法法庭的解釋更是要凸顯立法院的提案公投沒有符合明確性的原則這就是為什麼中選會依法行政未來的行政訴訟我尊重在野黨但是我還是這一句話沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面下一頁"},{"start":9683.124,"end":9710.469,"text":"我進入我第二個主題最近吵得很夯喔大家知道苗博雅市議員那她以證人的身份去出庭針對柯文哲前市長的金華城案但是呢她作為依法院的宣就是傳喚她她依法去履行她的責任可是她去出庭前卻被民眾黨"},{"start":9713.019,"end":9722.049,"text":"鋪天蓋地的來進行抹黑攻擊也就是在開庭前公然的去騷擾攻擊證人這絕對是不應該在民主法治社會發生的事吧"},{"start":9729.844,"end":9746.688,"text":"如果有任何的證人在依法律的規定他去出庭傳喚來配合檢調的偵辦這是他公民的職責卻被惡意的攻擊騷擾怎麼辦 怎麼處理你們可以放任這種事情嗎"},{"start":9761.598,"end":9774.723,"text":"沒有辦法回答因為沒有人想像會有人發生這種事情對不對只是一個去出庭應訊的提供證言證詞的證人而已會被攻擊成這個程度而這一個政黨現在還要推法庭直播啊最愛妨礙司法公正的政黨"},{"start":9785.989,"end":9811.419,"text":"現在還打著透明公開 用民粹的操作要去推法庭直播啊 下一頁而且很離譜的喔要修法院組織法已經進附二讀在5月23號換言之 未來司法法治委員會沒有任何機會具體討論法院組織法針對法庭直播的合理性"},{"start":9812.728,"end":9821.4,"text":"正當性沒有辦法進行討論直接就在立法院要被透過表決來上路了你們以後就是要執行的人耶司法院跟法務部怎麼辦"},{"start":9829.471,"end":9842.337,"text":"法庭直播這件事情沒有委員會的充分討論直接淨附二讀而且我也可以預判表決前也不太有充分的發言的機會啦可能又被沒收了啦然後直接用表決"},{"start":9843.871,"end":9862.098,"text":"站在你們專業的司法人員 捍衛司法的獨立也一直在推動司法的透明公開的司法院跟法務部未來都是你們要執行的欸你們樂見這樣一個修法直接用禁覆二讀的方式直接被表決通過你們 這是你們最後可能以後沒有機會了一個月後就要表決了"},{"start":9868.737,"end":9883.236,"text":"那個鮑委員那個司法院對這部分確實很疑慮因為在重大刑案就是譬如說是一項貪毒殺人這樣子的那個案件就是被害人跟鑑定人他們這個公開播送是無遠弗屆的他們"},{"start":9883.697,"end":9911.648,"text":"就是很容易會被那個肉搜或者是說被那個威脅那他們想到這個話他們就不敢到法庭那還有就是說可能那個有心人會利用這一種那個公開播送去製造輿論全民公審那這一些事情都是不利於就是公平審判就反而會去假透明公開知名來行使妨礙司法公正干預司法影響他獨立辦案"},{"start":9912.968,"end":9930.184,"text":"都會有這些負面的效果那還有一點就是這個是比較難以防治的就是說你知道一公開播送之後這個資料你要怎麼收回跟那個管制這是很困難的那現在自媒體那個發達就是說這個影音可能當事人會惡意的那個剪輯"},{"start":9930.725,"end":9953.406,"text":"然後再不到的這一些那個濫用那事實上這個以前我們都研議過2017年確實司改國是會議有這樣子的討論但是之所以這麼多年沒有辦法全面去推法庭直播就是因為學界跟實務界的意見分歧在下一頁我們即使沒有辦法去做到法庭直播"},{"start":9954.146,"end":9963.672,"text":"這幾年來落實司法資訊的透明公開保障當事人的權益我們已經一再的在軟硬體去下手所以這段時間法官協會2017年就已經說了公開審判不等於法庭直播一定要三思啊而2025年的法官協會很嚴正的聲明說法院不是流量的秀場"},{"start":9978.74,"end":9999.271,"text":"直播並不是提升司法公信力的解方反而會造成非常嚴重的副作用下一頁女法官協會也發出了聲明切莫不要透過表決直接讓這一個沒有社會公式沒有社會公式的法庭直播直接倉促的上路它需要配套下一頁"},{"start":10002.234,"end":10016.717,"text":"減輕減改也發生了只有中國只有專制獨裁的中國才全面推動事實審的法庭直播部長現在全世界事實審的法庭直播是不是只有中國應當是吧這個是北韓是嗎那一樣都是極權國家好我最後就以"},{"start":10028.533,"end":10054.307,"text":"只有中國在推動事實審的法庭直播因為在司法欠缺獨立審判的中國它透過這種公審就是一種公審的大秀它可以利用司法的公審大秀來做到它的政治目的它能夠用此來恫嚇人民進行政治宣傳所以說台灣要向中國學習嗎"},{"start":10056.448,"end":10060.657,"text":"台灣要向毫無司法獨立審判的中國學習跟進嗎"},{"start":10064.008,"end":10087.982,"text":"我希望未來我們還有機會好好討論法庭直播這個議題否則在5月23號已經禁覆二讀6月23號司法法治委員會委員會中心主義被沒收被踐踏我們這些專業的司法法治委員沒有機會在這裡就教於你們沒有辦法跟法界、實務界討論了直接就用表決來決定了我希望司法院跟法務部你們要站在你們能夠"},{"start":10092.666,"end":10110.544,"text":"擁有的倡議的力量去讓社會知道公開透明不是全程直播尤其在法院我們除了對於公共知的權利的公益權的捍衛我們更要確保訴訟當事人參與者他的權利你們真的我要提醒你們不要認為"},{"start":10120.283,"end":10147.398,"text":"立法院表決是立法院的事以後都是司法人員你們要承受莫大的壓力整個司法公正可能會受到莫大的影響跟癱瘓好嗎 不好意思我佔用多一點時間只剩下一個月不到的時間立法院就要強行表決了絕對是非常serious的事情我在這裡提醒好 謝謝主席 謝謝大家好 謝謝剛剛我跟衛福部次長 呂次長"},{"start":10149.166,"end":10170.355,"text":"我剛剛說那個要跟你要的那個東西齁我那個時間講錯因為我們上個禮拜就發文給你們了所以說上個禮拜有跟你們說兩個禮拜嘛阿所以兩個禮拜起算是上個禮拜就起算所以這禮拜要麻煩你們給我因為那個資料應該不會很難我們上週就發文過去了好再麻煩次長謝謝次長好那我們現在依照剛剛宣告休息五分鐘"},{"start":10557.639,"end":10559.9,"text":"主席,麻煩我們的旅次長跟矯正署長矯正署署長還有次長"},{"start":10585.58,"end":10586.141,"text":"次長和署長"},{"start":10598.644,"end":10620.059,"text":"兩位早安那署長我先問你就是說我在4月初事上有對少年矯正輔導那個議題呢質詢過那也跟矯正署索取書面回覆的報告那今天剛好我覺得今天衛福部也有人來所以我希望說能夠再針對逆境方案跟兩位在做討論那"},{"start":10622.762,"end":10629.893,"text":"逆境方案目前仍然是定期性的方案計畫第一會期的時候保護師有回覆我說"},{"start":10631.754,"end":10655.187,"text":"會朝向長年期的計畫去規劃可是現在實務上還是有很多意見都指出因為社工是方案委託不具有法定的權限在執行少年跟家庭處遇工作時的時候常常因為沒有權責所以處處碰壁所以特別今天我要提出兩種類型的就是失蹤兒少跟司法矯正少年的部分"},{"start":10657.248,"end":10683.375,"text":"首先想問署長目前各校的訪視時段是不是有統一的規劃每個月的名額是不是依照學生的數量去進行調整跟委員報告我們針對這個少年的部分他從入校之後我們原則上三個月內會做一些相關的調查包括他有沒有需要做一些家庭知識三個月內嗎"},{"start":10685.115,"end":10702.91,"text":"少年出校之後一年內我們會做後追這個後追可能是針對說他將來包括說他的就業就學或是有些就醫就養的問題我們會做一些協助提供一些平台資源的挹注"},{"start":10704.732,"end":10729.093,"text":"事實上上次質詢的時候我就有提過仿視空間跟機制的規劃不夠友善的問題矯正署也回覆我書面報告說我還是認為實務上遭遇的困難無法透過矯正署說的充分聯繫來解決我認為有需要有個明確的機制才會有效改善問題"},{"start":10730.074,"end":10731.114,"text":"在2022年CRC被國際委員審查的時候"},{"start":10749.58,"end":10773.838,"text":"他的主席Duke他也講說一定要有比較多的時間讓他們跟家庭有互動甚至社工有互動未來歸戶社區的可能性才會比較高可是你這樣的像端平每個月甚至都無法讓每一個學生都有至少一次的訪視機會更不願讓家長委託社工寄送零用或者是會客的"},{"start":10774.918,"end":10803.137,"text":"那個菜那這個問題必須要盡快解決署長你可以承諾這個問題要去處理嗎是 報告委員上次委員你有執行過我們回去有請我們紹角校還有相關的來做改進那我們所知道的是有一些社工他可以透過公務接見我們都會配合來做相關的時間的調整還有空間的提供"},{"start":10804.077,"end":10833.557,"text":"比較合適做一些輔導的這個部分我們都有在努力改進所以你這邊如果處理完之後是不是也確定要這樣做那是不是可以給我一個書面報告再來我想問次長目前歷經社工在失蹤兒少的收案聯繫的處遇上是否各縣市的結案的指標都有掌握而從地方政府單位收案後是不是能夠充分去掌握失蹤兒少的相關資訊整體的服務過程需要多久"},{"start":10833.839,"end":10833.943,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":10835.229,"end":10863.58,"text":"報告委員我們現在都有一個定期聯繫的那個機制包括就是說跟矯正署這邊還有另外有一個就是跟地方政府這邊的一個整個權責上的一個督導我們都有一個協調機制可是我不知道就是說我現在聽到的實務狀況是你剛剛講只是說有機制可是我問的是時間到底甚至結案的指標有沒有掌握因為各地方政府從接獲家長報案甚至"},{"start":10865.7,"end":10892.73,"text":"轉介到禁案到派案的時間都不一定有的可以快速一週內派案有的需要將近三個月的時間那我認為這個時間間隔不應該這麼久因為這段時間兒少的狀況恐怕會有很大的變化也可能會造成非常的危險而且對於收案的逆境社工來說恐怕也沒有權收集到相關的資訊可以協助他去聯繫廚藥本來是要派案社工去處理"},{"start":10893.79,"end":10911.497,"text":"而且沒有任何資源可以提供兒少協助只能被動的接受這樣的狀況甚至未開案的結案指標設計部分單位因為失蹤兒少家案家的服務指引的規定就變相認定如果一個月內找不到人"},{"start":10912.077,"end":10941.107,"text":"沒有辦法好完成調查評估的話就自己結案了有些是這樣做的等個案出現時就並不會重啟調查還上去持續再通報而且順利在一個月內找到人才能真正的做那個調查評估以後續的處遇介入所以這部分是不是我認為需要請市長這邊去協助檢視跟精進各縣市執行的時間的個案管理流程跟結案指標這個可以承諾做到嗎"},{"start":10942.327,"end":10968.84,"text":"包委員非常感謝委員剛剛所點出這些問題我覺得這個如果說有超過三個月然後我想這個確實會對你看有的快到一週有的事實上要到三個月我覺得這個落差真的很大甚至有的一個月就給他結案找不到人就結案有的事實上找不到人三個月結案這各縣市的做法不太一樣最後我上次也有提到耳哨精神醫療資源的問題了法務部也很誠實的回覆我說目前的困境在於我們的醫師員額的"},{"start":10970.541,"end":10973.483,"text":"我們會跟衛福部來隨時做一些溝通聯繫來盡量做一些改善保障這些少年的權益"},{"start":10996.044,"end":11020.234,"text":"目前衛福部也有推動嚴重情緒行為 身障者精神醫療就醫的障礙改善計畫我知道今天新建師的專委也有來也麻煩你們提出書面報告說明目前跟矯正學校合作整個配合的狀況是什麼是不是有做外展服務以及目前的推動進度那最後大家就是期待我對"},{"start":11022.515,"end":11042.952,"text":"這個兒少年的輔導服務我主張可不可以完善各校的訪師機制上次已經有質詢過有沒有一個明確的流程跟配套來提供少年跟家庭處於工作的具體支持否則一旦他出了社區的話從高結構走到低結構的話沒有辦法讓社工在社區接得住小孩我覺得藥頭跟"},{"start":11044.313,"end":11067.121,"text":"我們的幫派比我們搶小孩搶得更快第二個是讓全面檢視跟精進各地方的政府我覺得處理失蹤兒少的個案管理流程跟我們的結案指標那就要麻煩次長這邊還有快速佈建兒少精神醫療資源來加強跨單位的合作再麻煩兩位那麻煩這兩週內是不是兩邊都可以給我書面報告"},{"start":11068.1,"end":11072.724,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們回去我們趕快來評委委員好 謝謝次長好 謝謝署長感謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":11096.834,"end":11097.574,"text":"剛剛發言的吳思堯又再吳兆堯了"},{"start":11125.319,"end":11142.804,"text":"他竟然說苗博雅當證人來北院開庭的時候有民眾黨的民眾攻擊他嗎?有嗎?民眾黨群眾跟支持者小草都在對接啊他根本碰不到證人啊有這個事嗎?不是有在造謠嗎?有嗎?你對民眾黨這麼嚴重的指控"},{"start":11155.216,"end":11178.397,"text":"是要症狀澄清 第二個他那天去幫柯文哲講了不少話啊包括看電光底的時候他直接講啊 那個呈現的他說柯文哲 柯市長不是一個混亂搞的人啊我們很多民眾黨的人不只沒有攻擊他 還讚美他啊幫柯文哲有講公道話啊 幫柯文哲清白啊吳思堯不要再造謠了吳思堯剛一還造謠"},{"start":11183.234,"end":11209.313,"text":"他說啊 全世界法庭直播只有中國 是這樣嗎美國沒有嗎 美國沒有的話怎麼會有強奴在那邊逮捕了那個世紀大直播呢英國也有啊加拿大也有啊上次我都已經打臉他了他說要直播要發掉600多億600多倍的這個謊言吧我們立法院的直播 每看 大家每天都在看每天都在看"},{"start":11212.694,"end":11236.546,"text":"我們大概一年就是一億嘛上次我已經拆穿到謊言今天還來說什麼 還在造謠只有中國大陸有那強尼戴普那個大司機的直播是怎麼回事美國有啊 英國有啊更重要的 更重要的我們為了這個事情做過兩次的大型民調大型的民調喔都是超過七成以上都贊成的"},{"start":11238.154,"end":11254.281,"text":"而且你的以前蔡英文的司法國事會議已經通過啦你今天是怎麼樣 無私來打臉蔡英文是不是這不是表決的問題 我們也可以充分的討論可是請不要一直造謠好 我今天要來談凱凱案 讓人家痛心的凱凱案這個事情讓他悲痛的是一個才一歲半的小孩 受到那麼樣的凌內"},{"start":11267.731,"end":11272.976,"text":"結果呢 現在社會除了悲傷之外 有去補破網嗎我去看了所有的資料我們的 內同的這個事件 越來越多然後這個刑度每次一判都越來越低這樣司法會讓民眾可以信任嗎"},{"start":11291.215,"end":11313.03,"text":"所以我們要回應民意不只是很多民眾上街去抗議的高達14萬人連署喔要求要增加內而致死要增加死刑今天台灣民眾黨也提出了修正動議我們要求增列以後如果內而致死要增加死刑剛剛部長是說法務部最後提案子也是往這方向走對不對"},{"start":11323.28,"end":11345.595,"text":"這部分那個零列的話那個應該重點不是在如果以零列的一個方式來達到殺人的一個目的那這部分我們認為是在立法的選擇可以再做增定的加重的一個處罰我們可以另外在因為零列的部分有些是在傷害有些單純的沒有造成傷害那有些是他要"},{"start":11346.335,"end":11372.501,"text":"以他當殺人的一個結果那我想這個整個一個致死的這一部分那個我們都可以來研修來考量考在意見上禮拜的這個公聽會嘛還有今天整個部長這個回答看起來是王哲鋒這樣在說啦我們希望早一點落實我們不允許不允許這個內閣這個事件越來越多然後刑度竟然是越來越低的我們一定要盡力去矯正另外我來幫吳宗憲吳主席問這個問一下"},{"start":11375.612,"end":11395.091,"text":"中憲在上個禮拜五二七的時候司法法治委員會當庭告發公務員涉犯刑務法第129條一流克扣罪中憲那天直接跟法務部當場就告發了嘛 對不對這很嚴重是因為"},{"start":11396.437,"end":11422.851,"text":"行政院違法亂紀違反三大法財政收支劃分法已經訂了說不能夠今年度的補助款不能比去年低結果你砍了636億當然就比去年低啊違法啊第二個我們在立法院審的時候也清清楚楚講只有對中央跟首屬機關根本就不能碰到這個地方的事情結果他現在已經砍了第三個違法去年8月就已經要各個縣市政府編預算了"},{"start":11424.051,"end":11441.238,"text":"編完之後各個議會都通過了三大違法違法亂紀更嚴重的出犯了刑法129條一流客戶罪那中線上禮拜已經當場告發了嘛現在辦了嗎這個已經函請那個太高檢署來處理了處理中了對不對"},{"start":11442.609,"end":11462.568,"text":"OK 這事情要快辦因為這個影響到他那個砍掉的預算是跟各個地方政府跟人民的社會不利牽扯到很多老人家跟那個長輩跟那個小孩子的還有教育費用跟基礎建設那影響太大了這事情要快點辦另外我再問你一個不要雙標問題李俊逸啊 經參秘書長請辭之後啊那法務部現在辦了嗎"},{"start":11469.464,"end":11493.292,"text":"這部分有告發了 跟北檢告發那這部分台北地檢署有在偵辦中今天的新聞說你們在偵辦你們現在是在調那個什麼里程數啊我問你一下 不然我問你一下你們最近這個大搜索大搜押這個背信罪跟現在李靜莉碰到這個事情他這個應該是背信跟侵殺嘛 對不對"},{"start":11494.896,"end":11519.659,"text":"這個可能有涉及到這部分的一個情形當然以以前的公測適用可能有偽造文書、侵占詐欺北檢等等這部分到底有沒有這部分北檢在偵辦中司法天平不能夠傾斜 不能雙標我剛剛就是問一個最簡單的問題 一般民眾一定問你"},{"start":11522.465,"end":11546.913,"text":"你在大搜索跟大搜押的偽造文書跟相對這一邊的你建立這一邊的侵占跟背信哪個最比較重法定是一樣最高是一樣行者這邊一定比較重結果比較輕的這邊已經大搜索大搜押那麼多人了這邊現在看起來輕輕的到現在還在辦什麼在查那個里程數"},{"start":11548.313,"end":11567.461,"text":"這個檢查就是依他的偵查計畫 這部分我沒辦法去干涉指導你不用干涉啦 就是說不要讓民眾很清楚感受到你是雙標的不要雙標 把他碰到民進黨的時候轉彎一個是雙標嘛 不要碰到民進黨的時候轉彎這樣嘛這標準就是要一致 我跟你講 你的天平傾斜 民眾就會看得到嘛OK 那不是 OK 好"},{"start":11572.315,"end":11598.496,"text":"好啦 最近那個 老師講司法我們一定要強調司法是人民一個很重要正義的防線啊 雖然現在民調這麼低所以我已經苦苦撲心提過好幾次了所以我們也是希望給司法一個純正的辦案空間嘛那那個包括什麼偵查審判都是一樣對 保定 辦案空間一定是會的全民都會支持 立法院一定會支持不過不要讓人民覺得你是雙標碰到民進黨就轉彎民調已經那麼清楚跟你講那麼多民眾已經上街頭了"},{"start":11599.497,"end":11615.268,"text":"我們都有歷史定位啦我覺得你現在是一個大家長我覺得你要留下好的歷史定位加油謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員再下一位我們請陳培瑜委員發言"},{"start":11626.718,"end":11633.089,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那先有請司法院還有法務部 謝謝麻煩複密還有部長"},{"start":11637.677,"end":11660.283,"text":"好 針對剛剛張祺凱委員的造謠我要公開的說在5月19號台灣民眾黨中央組織部的臉書上面寫著集結一場苗頭不對的司法對決正式開打第二張圖卡搭配就是520禮拜二早上10點台北地檢署站出來這個是你們民眾黨自己的臉書你可能好 來我要回到我自己的議題上"},{"start":11663.291,"end":11690.139,"text":"在立法院這一年感覺很大的辛苦就是別人只要一直潑髒水我們要一直說道理好來謝謝你們我非常好奇主席為什麼一直在排相關議題喔從法體公投辦公廳會到現在專題報告那既然要談死刑我們就來好好談一談第一個我想要問喔沒有廢死何來實質廢死我想問兩位就你們的法律專業我下這個標題有沒有問題"},{"start":11692.591,"end":11717.747,"text":"我認為既然台灣現在沒有廢死 何來所謂實質廢死法官在那個憲判八裡面主文就宣示了 就是死刑它並不違憲的是 好 我們再來往下看喔事實上在台灣從中華民國刑法立法以來一直到目前為止從來沒有一天有廢除死刑 請問我以上說的是對的嗎"},{"start":11719.139,"end":11735.751,"text":"是好那在113年宪判第8号判决也认定所谓的死刑是有条件核限也就是并没有违宪而核限的条件意思就是我们要慎重因为死刑没有try and error的空间以上的论述对不对"},{"start":11736.471,"end":11752.689,"text":"是好如果是這個論述我們往下來看我們現在看到藍白還有意見的一致決我認為如果放在所謂憲判的主文裡面也就是說這個是憲法解釋的核心見解好那憲判解釋出來我們可不可以認同為他為憲法的高度"},{"start":11754.19,"end":11779.749,"text":"是好沒有錯以上我就說這一年在立法院很辛苦我們得一直說道理那我們就來好好說以上我要請問法務部我的這個問題非常非常簡單其實答案也都已經公佈了法務部跟您做事時的確認在113年憲判8號的判決之後部長我們在今年年初是不是仍然有簽准並且執行死刑你只要告訴我yes還是no"},{"start":11780.129,"end":11795.923,"text":"有在今年的1月16日有執行也就是說憲法法庭判決的結果並沒有影響到死刑的執行對不對法務部依然可以合憲的執行死刑依法執行"},{"start":11796.223,"end":11825.695,"text":"好依法執行沒錯我剛說依法執行好謝謝部長來下一張我想要繼續請問喔再跟你做另外一個事實的確認你們在今年年初做了一件事情叫做修正死刑執行規則而且呢整個看起來方向是變得更為嚴格意思就是說原本死刑有很多暫緩執行的條件跟申請但是你們讓這個暫緩的申請跟執行變得更加嚴格對不對"},{"start":11826.595,"end":11851.278,"text":"更加的一個合理因為從109年那個執行史行規則修訂之後呢是那我們各界聲音也是很多那我們也辦了四次的座談座談就是各界的一個意見也就是說你們的修正必須跟國人交代的是我們並沒有朝向寬鬆甚至沒有朝向廢死的方向來處理這是我解讀對嗎"},{"start":11852.219,"end":11878.004,"text":"是更合理的一個方式也就是沒有變得更寬鬆喔沒有變得要廢死喔對嗎沒有要廢死好我再次強調嘛因為現在有很多輿論有很多論述我認為是在導向錯誤的論述所以在公開的質詢謝謝您剛的回覆也就是我們並沒有往這裡去走對嗎這個是更合理的因為制造那個整個也配合大家的一個往那意見是能夠再執行實行更合理"},{"start":11878.504,"end":11899.958,"text":"好那下一張也就是說在憲法法庭判決結束之後我們來看這個新聞仍然有地方法院做出死刑判決我再強調一次這是在憲判法庭做出判決結果之後而且這是聯合報的媒體他自己就寫了釋憲後來首判死理由曝光"},{"start":11900.919,"end":11920.372,"text":"也就是說我剛剛的論述跟您的回答是一致的也就是說現判後的死刑判決依然在進行而且從來沒有停止廢除死刑這件事情也就是我認為如果我們剛剛講的一切都是對的那怎麼會有現在有人在炒作所謂實質廢死您怎麼看這個事情"},{"start":11922.193,"end":11934.304,"text":"自從就是113年先判八字號判決出來之後呢事實上有兩件就是有馬國馬來西亞籍大女生她那個那個那個殺"},{"start":11935.68,"end":11958.129,"text":"那個這部分一二審都是判有罪那個二審是判有罪另外那個高雄地院那審理那惡靈那個無性的一個被告那這邊把鄰居夫妻殺死的這件也一審判死這都是在憲判八字判決之後的判決那可見那個這部分有實務上的一個兩個一個案例的一個實行的一個判決"},{"start":11958.949,"end":11983.218,"text":"謝謝部長說明的很清楚接下來我想請問司法院我們不要就個案來評判好不好我們我想請教司法院司法院你們認為在憲法法庭判決之後法院所做出的這個死刑判決是合理的嗎我不是說個案這樣判而是說我們本來就可以繼續做出死刑判決對不對是就是在那個憲判八底下所要求的這一些不管是程序或是實體的那個檢驗上面"},{"start":11984.278,"end":12009.51,"text":"所以兩位講的都非常非常清楚我們來看下一個這個是上一頁我剛剛提出來的一個案件聯合報報導這個新聞案件高雄地院的判決我還有附上判決字號大家有興趣可以自己去查在這個判決當中就明確的記載了憲法法庭判決的內容甚至他提到憲法法庭判決的見解當中認定死刑是核限的但是因為相關資料太多我就不再贅述我想要繼續請教兩位"},{"start":12010.911,"end":12039.332,"text":"既然憲法法庭判決認定死刑是核限的而在憲法法庭判決過後如同我們剛剛對過的資料法院可以繼續判處死刑而法務部依然可以簽准死刑還有相關的死刑規則我們也都去調整了那怎麼會有繼續這樣的言論叫做實質廢死我真的覺得很莫名其妙那我認為扯出這樣的言論真的是法盲理盲邏輯盲怎麼說我不要到下一頁我想要問"},{"start":12040.666,"end":12049.218,"text":"之前藍白修法修了憲法訴訟法加高了門檻讓大法官人數不足那我可不可以說藍白是實質癱瘓憲法法庭"},{"start":12052.691,"end":12080.522,"text":"好你們微笑沒關係這是我個人的見解我認為如果我們今天在立法院要理性認真的討論這個事情那我是不是也可以這樣說當然這是我的見解我就不讓你們回答我只是要說這件事情我們確實需要跟國人有更多的溝通跟討論好下一張那死刑一字決不是重大政策可是藍白繼續裝睡覺不行甚至在禮拜二的程序委員會當中我們看到藍白提出行政訴訟來"},{"start":12082.219,"end":12100.452,"text":"在過去我們針對這個案子其實民進黨委員都努力的論述可是我們一直提醒這個案子有問題這個案子有問題那我剛剛已經提醒了公投出來的結果它是法律未接可是憲判法庭的判決是憲法未接"},{"start":12101.312,"end":12128.324,"text":"就一個國中生的公民課上完以後他應該都會知道憲法跟法律未接是截然不同絕對是憲法的效力高於法律的效力對嗎我認為這是一般國中生都會知道的事情可是如果我們來看過往在台灣曾經實行過的公投還有44748號解釋關於同婚還有後續的很多人提出的反同公投其實已經示範過一次"},{"start":12129.725,"end":12158.099,"text":"我認為藍白是忘記或者是不敢想起來我其實還是不知道但我們真的認為他們不聽就是不聽創造出非常多錯假的訊息這件事情我認為非常非常的遺憾我也想要跟兩位討論我認為是不是要廢除死刑可以被認定是重大政策可是所謂的死刑以治絕事實上已經涉及到比較技術性比較細節的項目它不會是所謂重大性政策"},{"start":12158.599,"end":12174.03,"text":"也就是公投如果我們要談的是這個事情又回到創製或者是覆決我都認為是有問題的我想要快速跟兩位請教你們怎麼看好啦我不要為難你們我自己往下說我剛已經說了下一張"},{"start":12175.131,"end":12190.158,"text":"在禮拜二程序委員會我們看到這個提案了我認為藍白相關提案被中選會打臉我認為已經很丟臉了可是我想要問更荒謬的是現在還要提起行政訴訟我自己也是立法院的議員"},{"start":12191.819,"end":12220.476,"text":"對於國人來說 不管藍白 綠我們都是立法委員假設這個行政訴訟真的告下去了然後我們也輸了我們會怎麼丟自己立法院的臉我其實現在還在想像那個可怕的境況喔我非常非常的擔心好 下一張死刑這件事情喔 我在上一次質詢的時候或者是之前在討論的時候 我就說慎重非常的重要人命關天這件事情非常的重要"},{"start":12222.68,"end":12240.993,"text":"藍白在很多方面我都已經不知道過去做十幾年親子教育的我要怎麼去教家長讓家長去教小孩今天是六四在中國今天沒有六四今天叫做五月三十五號沒有六四我再說一次今天在中國不會有六四是五月三十五號"},{"start":12242.034,"end":12268.131,"text":"在台灣 有一群人不敢面對的輕蔑人命 罔顧人命不顧正義 不顧公正很多事情到現在 依然沒有說清楚 講明白也沒有人對相關事情道歉在台灣就是白色恐怖 就是戒嚴很多人的生命就此犧牲相關的協商會議當中 我還記得有一次喔我想要談這個事情 藍白就站起來走人了我猜想他們不敢想起來 不敢面對"},{"start":12269.432,"end":12290.134,"text":"而在今天談死性疑似覺這件事情上我想要最後用這張投影片要提醒大家人命關天這件事情非常非常的重要不管你站在哪一方我認為每一個人的性命都一樣的重要而慎重這件事情絕對是非常非常重要再加上兩位剛剛給我的回答非常的清楚我們並沒有往那個路上前去我們"},{"start":12291.135,"end":12308.964,"text":"在憲法判決之後相關的案例還是有判處死刑不僅可以簽准可以執行我想台灣這件事情我們應該要繼續合理的討論以上好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝那下一位我們請王育民委員發言"},{"start":12321.365,"end":12341.211,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請保護部 曾部長麻煩部長委員好部長 我就直接問你一個問題你贊不贊成凌虐兒童致死最高刑度可以到死刑我想凌虐會讓"},{"start":12343.246,"end":12370.081,"text":"致死我認為我們認為有很多的一個太陽如果以凌劣的手段來當殺人的一個方式的話我認為這個不是致死的問題這已經進入到那個殺人的一個範疇我們認為以未滿7歲這個兒童還被凌劣用凌劣的方式來殺人我認為應該要另外的立法來做一個比271條的殺人罪更重的一個刑度我們認為這個我們沒辦法去容忍這個問題"},{"start":12371.26,"end":12385.714,"text":"那所以我們的態度是這樣當然是以那個286那個是可以來做一個演繹的那所以部長你認為應該要怎麼修我們就直接談怎麼修因為現在委員的版本有提286的也有271的但剛剛你說應該要訂一個比271更重的"},{"start":12390.658,"end":12415.277,"text":"如果是淋虐七歲以下的幼童淋虐致死的話那應該要放在哪裡呢你們現在我相信你們一定有討論過事實上這個議題也不是因為最近的虐童案才受到關注過去就有很多兒童受虐致死的案件所以立法院我在第八屆第九屆的時候都有討論過法務部一向是反對的就是沒有想要增進死刑"},{"start":12415.817,"end":12434.094,"text":"但這次的案件又讓民意再次沸騰所以我相信部長你也感受到強大的民意的這樣的一個訴求那法律就是要服務人民嗎如果說我們現在想要去遏止這一種用凌虐的手段然後導致幼童死亡的這一些加害者"},{"start":12434.514,"end":12458.207,"text":"當他知道他在法律上面必須付出相對非常大的一個代價的話我認為這樣的一個修法就是有其必要性那因為法務部一直說你們要研議因為這個議題也不是現在才發生你們過去就研議過我就直接請教部長你認為如果286 271現行可能都不是修法要另外再增加的話要加在哪裡在我們的刑法"},{"start":12458.687,"end":12486.177,"text":"在刑法我們有一個思考這個方向因為我們現在昨天6月3日跟明天6月5日都要做一個行修的以及協商的召開的延伸的一個會議是那目前我們把我們的想法好 你說做那個那我們想法大概整個立法方向就是剛才我跟委員報告過的對未滿7歲的兒童我們他以零列當作殺人的一個手段是把零列要殺人"},{"start":12487.017,"end":12509.715,"text":"用零列一開始計三的規制零列它發生死亡的結果那這部分我們在打算是不是可以另外再另一條的一個法條來做單獨的加重的一個規定就是另立一個單獨的條文譬如說單獨的條文就像我們殺害執行協定遵信署也加重的條文那是不是我們這個殺人罪再加重的規定我們再朝這個立法的一個方向來處理"},{"start":12511.016,"end":12537.178,"text":"那這樣我想這部分可以更加落實保護的一個兒童那另外各委員本來有說286的加重結果那這邊我們都尊重那我想這部分我們拿出來這個條文我們拿出來就做一個行修的會議以及延伸會議的討論我們就會拿出來做一個一定的討論那你什麼時候會有結果因為事實上這個如果大家有共識上次那個委員會的時候委員有要求我們在三個月內提出嘛那我們就盡快來處理啦"},{"start":12539.229,"end":12555.12,"text":"你是說你明天就要再開另外一次會議那個是延伸是我們法部內部那因為我們還要再預告還要再報行政院來做一個審查那這個期間我們希望就是上次委員會有要求說我們在三個月內要提出來"},{"start":12556.236,"end":12584.284,"text":"這個部分我希望能快則快就是如果你們已經有個共識他可以用另立條文的方式我相信這個是符合社會的期待而且希望可以加速推動過去在立法上面不是說一定行政院可以審得多慢要快的話行政院其實也很快我坦白講只要法務部你們不反對專家學者大家有共識我想立法院也一定會支持就像你今天看到這麼多委員提出這麼多的版本"},{"start":12585.004,"end":12602.775,"text":"他目標就有一個 我們不再容忍 凌虐兒童致死的這一些加害者他以為在刑法上面 他是一個比較輕的刑度他以為國家的法律不會苛於他更嚴格的這樣的一個刑責就是這種僥倖的心態 我們絕對是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":12606.277,"end":12620.806,"text":"所以也藉著這樣的修法讓大家有一個很正確的意識幼童是我們每一個成人都應該去保護的而不是去傷害的對象如果有人用這一種傷害凌虐幼童的方式而導致他失去生命很抱歉這跟殺人無異"},{"start":12623.208,"end":12643.295,"text":"你的刑責一定是跟殺人罪一樣最高可以到死刑我覺得如果台灣透過這樣一個修法事實上也是正式跟社會做一個很嚴正的宣告幼童大人的責任只有保護誰都不應該去傷害所以我覺得這樣的一個法義如果透過再次的修法可以很清楚的"},{"start":12643.675,"end":12669.121,"text":"就是跟社會宣告的話我相信對於未來去制止或者是防止下一個幼童被犧牲這個應該會有很正面的效果所以部長我很高興聽到你剛剛是有這樣子的一個初步的修法的方向但是我認為此事這個後面的程序雖然你們之前說三個月內但是如果你們已經夠成熟大家也有共識立法院也有支持"},{"start":12669.961,"end":12689.566,"text":"這一次立法院的這個會議已經延到7月底如果我們可以在7月底在這個有意義的法案上面我們既回應強大的民意然後也確保未來就是我們保護幼童國家跟刑法我們是站在一個更嚴肅的立場我們願意全力去捍衛我覺得這個是非常有意義價值的事情"},{"start":12689.966,"end":12705.179,"text":"如果可以,我希望你們盡快加速讓這次立法院已經延會到七月底如果七月底,我們可以通過修法我相信這個對保護兒少來講是邁出了一大步可不可以加油我們就加緊努力好,謝謝部長,謝謝好,謝謝,那下一位我們請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":12728.171,"end":12732.734,"text":"你好 請部長跟副秘書長麻煩部長 副秘書長委員好"},{"start":12740.58,"end":12768.24,"text":"部長好 部長其實剛才幾位委員都有問過關於死刑的議題那現在的司法制度是否還有死刑的樣型的存在我想這個就不用再問過一次答案是是有的目前台灣的行動不僅有死刑的存在而且在今年剛才您也有回覆已經有實質執行死刑的案例在所以竟然有死刑的存在那為什麼在野黨不斷的來去推所謂的反廢死公投"},{"start":12769.321,"end":12771.104,"text":"這個你有沒有在你心中有起過這樣的疑惑"},{"start":12775.3,"end":12797.646,"text":"死刑是合憲的在113年的宪判八字那這部分我們也在合乎合憲以及合法的一個來依法來執行死刑那這部分有執行的案例那另外在宪判八字的這些之後也有法院也有實際上判處死刑的一個案例那我想可以提供給我想這個媒體都有報導對謝謝"},{"start":12798.806,"end":12807.14,"text":"我想也想請教副秘書長類似這樣子的重大的這種憲政議題你覺得這樣的議題是否適合用公投來決定"},{"start":12813.259,"end":12828.673,"text":"因為有關於憲法法庭的判決不管是依過去的大法官解釋或者是明白在憲訴法38條都規定說有關於判決是各機關都必須要遵守的"},{"start":12829.738,"end":12845.7,"text":"我們再回溯一下憲法法庭在13年限制第8號的判決中他對死刑的客處還有他執行跟設置的條件不管我們對這個判決的內容有什麼看法那我們都必須要認知到憲法的法庭是具有拘束全國各機關"},{"start":12846.821,"end":12875.231,"text":"它也是它的位階是等同於憲法的那既然有做出這樣子的決議這樣我們國家的法治基礎我相信每一個從政者他都是要去捍衛他這個核心價值那我想要請教馮秘書長你認為這個以自決這項條件在執行上面有沒有困難它合理性的部分你可不可以跟我們分享一下這個部分沒有什麼困難而且我們在評議中其實都是一個互相說服的一個過程其實都是很長的一個過程充分討論"},{"start":12876.912,"end":12895.71,"text":"我必須再強調我支持死刑我當然支持死刑就是正因為我們支持死刑我們要確保說每一個死刑的案件它的判決它是經過最嚴厲的最嚴格的去檢驗它但它的程序正義無懈可擊那這才是我們要努力的方向不是推動一個違背法制那引發憲政爭議的公投"},{"start":12897.091,"end":12911.427,"text":"那我們知道說在整個法律上面整個法律的效果上當你萬一有一個錯判的狀況的話那所造成的不但是正義不得到伸張它造成的又是另外一個破碎的家庭所以我們這次死刑"},{"start":12912.008,"end":12933.687,"text":"所以支持死刑的一個條件就是他要經過完整的程序正義那這一次不管是說一次決這個條件等等在剛才鳳斌署長也有回應到在法院那是一個互相把證據攤出來互相對話的一個過程當做有一次決的這樣子的決議的時候才能夠確保說我們的判決的品質上是好的"},{"start":12934.347,"end":12959.807,"text":"所以既然這次實行我們就不希望我再次強調不可以有言語那要問謹慎的做法我想這也是為什麼憲法法庭當初它做出這樣的努力跟這種原則它是有它的必要性的那我希望說藉由這一次的質詢的時候讓民眾知道說我們做這些或者是說我們在這個質詢的過程中也是要讓民眾知道說什麼叫做它這個一次決的這個合理性"},{"start":12960.347,"end":12982.133,"text":"他這個合理性他不僅僅是保護我們這個受害者被害者因為我們要確保說要找到的是真正的這個肇事者或者是真兇等等的不同的情境不同的狀況所以更需要有一完整的這個程序有程序正義才有這樣子死刑的這個執行的能力好 謝謝"},{"start":12985.454,"end":13007.473,"text":"好 謝謝那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員張志倫 林倩其所提書面之類列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆我們現在"},{"start":13010.939,"end":13038.306,"text":"進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀提案條文預估宣讀時間為三分鐘那如果修正動議或附帶決議提出請儘速將書面送交主席台以立應發現場進行討論審查法條時法案時請主要列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座宣讀時如有已收到的修正動議亦一併宣讀宣讀後即進行討論"},{"start":13040.146,"end":13068.616,"text":"請宣讀條文中華民國刑法委員陳玲霏等提案第77條處第二項增列第4款是犯第286條獲兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第31條至第40條第44條第45條第二項及第三項之罪者其餘同性行條文委員張志倫等提案第271條處增列第4項對於未滿7歲之人以凌虐方式犯第一項之罪者"},{"start":13069.136,"end":13089.513,"text":"除死刑或無期徒刑除無期徒刑者不得假釋其餘同現行條文委員王玉敏等23人提案第271條除了增列第4項對於未滿6歲之人以凌虐方式犯第1項之罪者除死刑或無期徒刑其餘同現行條文委員賴世保等提案第286條除在第3項"},{"start":13092.375,"end":13120.312,"text":"及第四項分別增列死刑外其餘同現行條文委員羅廷偉等提案第286條處在第五項的手續修正為對於未滿六歲之人病因末段增列致人於死者處死刑或無期徒刑至中傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑其餘同現行條文委員王韻明等18人提案第286條同委員羅廷偉等提案委員陳廷飛等提案第286條"},{"start":13121.793,"end":13144.506,"text":"除將第一項的有期徒刑修正為七年以下及第二項的有期徒刑修正為七年以上其餘同現行條文委員張志倫等提案第286條除將第一項的有期徒刑修正為十年以上及第二項的有期徒刑修正為二十年以上罰金修正為一千萬元以下第三項及第四項分別增列死刑之外其餘同現行條文"},{"start":13145.567,"end":13166.765,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第286條處在第五項末段增列致人與死者處死刑或無期徒刑致重傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑其餘同線刑條文委員求證金等提案第286條處在第二項的默劇的罰金修正為500萬元以下第三項及第四項分別修正為"},{"start":13167.546,"end":13191.113,"text":"犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十五年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處十二年以上有期徒刑其餘同性情條文委員葉宜仁之等提案及委員王洪威等二十一人提案"},{"start":13191.773,"end":13220.25,"text":"第二百八十六條均同國民黨黨團提案委員柯之恩等提案第二百八十六條對照國民黨黨團提案除將第一項的默劇修正為除三年以上十年以下有期徒刑其餘同國民黨黨團提案繼續宣讀修正動議部分修正動議一件宣讀修正動議一第二百八十六條第一項第二項未修正第三項"},{"start":13221.454,"end":13247.956,"text":"修正為對於未滿七歲之人犯前兩項之罪者依各該項之規定加重其刑二分之一第四項修正為對於七歲以上未滿十八歲之人犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處無其徒刑或四年以上有其徒刑至重傷者處五年以上十二年以下十二年下上有其徒刑"},{"start":13249.5,"end":13276.47,"text":"第五項修正為對七歲以上未滿十八歲之人犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者處無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處十年以上有期徒刑增訂第六項為對於未滿七歲之人犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處十年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":13277.15,"end":13295.635,"text":"增訂第七項對未滿七歲之人犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑致重傷者處無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑提案人黃國昌、吳宗憲、翁曉琳、黃宏威宣讀完畢"},{"start":13299.648,"end":13318.58,"text":"條文已經宣讀完畢現在進行討論請問在場委員本案是不是要進行大體討論或直接進入逐條審查進入逐條那大家沒有意見那我們就進入逐條那我們併案審查中華民國刑法第286條條文修正草案"},{"start":13321.183,"end":13343.181,"text":"繼續進行逐條討論本條是部分修正總共計處理三條那我們現在先審查排序一第77條由委員陳庭菲等17人提案那請問各位 因為陳委員沒有在場那請問各位委員有沒有意見要補充或要提出的好 中委員"},{"start":13349.008,"end":13372.414,"text":"第77條排序一的部分從286往報告總委員是排序一第77條今天總共處理3條7727還有286那目前處理第77條以上好那請問一下第77條的部分有沒有人要提出好那請問黃委員"},{"start":13376.175,"end":13391.357,"text":"第一個我先表達一下立場就是我是希望再拜託召委就下一次有空的時候針對不得甲式的無期徒刑"},{"start":13392.929,"end":13414.707,"text":"這一種刑法的選項的條文可以由委員會來加以排審因為他現在在處理的這個條文就大家關心的事情他是在77條裡面另外再多一個例外那提案的委員也沒有來那我們還有需要去處理這件事嗎"},{"start":13417.889,"end":13429.909,"text":"因為他這個77他是綁286嘛其他委員沒有啦那也應該可以來聚焦啦那因為提案人也沒有來啦我倒覺得可以不予修正嗎"},{"start":13431.479,"end":13459.393,"text":"好 那請問其他委員有沒有不同意見沒有好 那本條就不予修正那另外我剛剛那個回覆一下黃國昌委員的那個問題因為其實今天我也有去思考到無期徒刑不得假釋那因為我們今天先暫時不討論因為我的想法是因為有關無期徒刑不得假釋不是只有一兩個條文的問題它其實連動的條文非常多甚至還會跟刑刑累進處於條例都會有關聯性那因為這個牽動非常的重大"},{"start":13459.953,"end":13482.087,"text":"因為我看到有一些委員他的草案是單就無期徒刑就直接就分級了他沒有考量到連動的條文那因為我們希望更慎重的處理這件事情所以我才會今天刻意排除掉無期徒刑在今天來討論因為光這個議題而且這是幾十年的大議題所以這個部分我想說再更加嚴謹的處理在這邊先跟黃委員報告一下這個狀況"},{"start":13484.326,"end":13499.209,"text":"好 那接下來我們處理排序二 第271條有委員張志倫等17人提案及委員王玉敏等23人提案請問在場的提案委員有沒有要說明好 王委員"},{"start":13500.166,"end":13515.426,"text":"我提出來的這個271主要是因為之前修286那法務部也一直反對所以呢我們就直接想說271這邊直接殺人罪這邊可以再增加就是你零二重致死"},{"start":13515.906,"end":13542.815,"text":"然後一樣就是最高可以到死刑那剛剛法務部有說明他要再另立一個法條他們現在修法方剛剛部長回答我的時候是說他們要再另立一個新增的法條那我的原則是無論定在286或271或者是法務部要另立一個新的法條那我就是希望大家朝野共同支持"},{"start":13543.055,"end":13553.87,"text":"如果是凌虐兒童致死 最高可以到死刑這個大家有共識 可以往前進修在哪一條我都可以接受 以上 謝謝那還有沒有其他委員要補充 好 莊委員"},{"start":13555.717,"end":13581.705,"text":"我在還沒有進主條跟大體基督長的意見也不會差別太大但是我在這邊也在做一個提醒就是剛主席也提到的法條它涉及到一個聯動性那你聯動性的話你說要你就沒有一併處理了可是你今天就像我今天在質詢的我就提到的你說兩公約我們去通過我們就把它"},{"start":13583.125,"end":13607.44,"text":"國內我們把它內國化了以後啊那變成一個國內法那你變成一個國內法我們在這個地方你把它徵定一個死刑上來會不會跟兩國論點裡面有提到你不能去徵定新的死刑這樣的一個原則有所抵觸我想這個部分也請大家一併來做一個思考是 謝謝鍾委員那還有沒有哪位委員黃委員那請教一下法務部"},{"start":13613.168,"end":13636.656,"text":"你們說要另立一個調製立法技術的部分先放旁邊你們可能是覺得在普通殺人罪裡面針對有關於殺人的手段不要另外用相次來加以規範因為我現在看到兩個委員的提案就除了一般我們在講的故意殺人罪"},{"start":13638.083,"end":13666.406,"text":"他針對有關於殺害的手段前面再加一個以凌虐的方式我們先把立法形式跟立法技術的事情放到旁邊就討論實質的問題因為就立法技術跟立法形式的問題法律人員或許很在乎啦但我必須要老實跟法務部講人民根本不在乎"},{"start":13668.615,"end":13684.713,"text":"人民在乎的是更實際的事情所以我們以實際的事情來加以討論我們先不要管你贊不贊成在271裡面加最後一項還是你認為要用271之一或者是放在272之後"},{"start":13686.567,"end":13709.214,"text":"用二七二之一我先不跟你討論立法形式的問題以實質的內容來講法務部對於委員所提出來這個條文支持不支持還是有更好的處理方式這是我的第一個問題第二個問題針對有關於無期徒刑不可以假釋的部分"},{"start":13710.307,"end":13716.986,"text":"在立法上面法務部認不認為刑法總則沒有修"},{"start":13718.416,"end":13743.526,"text":"在刑法分則就可以明定還是一定要刑法總則一併修不可以單純的透過刑法分則修訂的方式來予以處理因為這是根本的立法政策的問題因為我有發現到張志文委員以實質的內容上面來講他認為在這種情況下的無期徒刑不可以假釋"},{"start":13745.231,"end":13769.463,"text":"那等於是呼應法務部之前在我們的大法官莫名其妙做出憲判罷以後法務部說針對一些特殊殘忍的事情你們認為你們要去推動不得假釋的無期徒刑有一些特定的犯罪的類型你們要推動不得假釋的無期徒刑那法務部雖然說"},{"start":13771.581,"end":13785.238,"text":"你們東西提給行政院了那當然按照我們以前既往的經驗包括現在進行式的東西法務部提給行政院的東西非常容易石沉大海"},{"start":13786.417,"end":13802.342,"text":"研議七年以上出不了行政院也不是沒發生過而且還是經常性的發生所以現在很怕聽到的是說行政院在研議中啊研議就不曉得研議幾年啊研議到2032年以後再來處理嗎所以第二個問題行總不休直接針對在這個刑分裡面特定的犯罪"},{"start":13815.763,"end":13840.697,"text":"類型因為他就殺人罪裡面他加了一個殺害的手段是以凌虐的方式做那等於是一個針對完全沒有自我保護能力的人用殘忍的方式用殘忍的方式把他殺害那這個符不符合之前法務部對台灣社會所宣示的那種重大殘忍的案子"},{"start":13841.772,"end":13867.467,"text":"那你們也要推動不得假釋的無期徒刑這是我的第二個問題我先跟在委報告一下我覺得法務部的立場還是要講清楚因為271跟286今天修的271跟286雖然有關聯但是他們還是屬於不同型態的犯罪271的部分還是嚴守著兩個全部都是故意犯"},{"start":13869.12,"end":13887.901,"text":"兩個全部都是故意犯的狀況下那到286的部分就進入深水區了就是現在很多公民團體在要求的虐童致死的部分他們認為應該要進一步的加重刑罰但是我們一步一步來就271的部分先請法務部表達立場"},{"start":13890.15,"end":13906.938,"text":"這個部分因為271的部分畢竟他殺人那個部分是故意的意思嘛那286的話死亡的部分是過失所以他兩個在還是有一些差距還是剛剛黃瑋瑜所提出來這裡大概我們之前質詢的時候一直提出有這個點那這是不是請法務部能夠加以說明謝謝"},{"start":13908.258,"end":13931.8,"text":"主席各位委員回答委員的問題271跟286如果都要修的話那涉及到刑法的一個理論問題我們會比較贊成支持我們修271271的話本部的立場當然是認為就是說用凝劣來殺害未滿7歲小孩這當然要做一個更嚴厲的處理那我們在立法的這個方向上可以考慮我們現在"},{"start":13932.941,"end":13957.325,"text":"一般的殺人之外另外有一個獨立的犯罪類型比如你殺害直系血清中心署它是一個加重的獨立犯罪類型我們也可以比照這個模式對以寧願的方式殺害未滿7歲的小孩這個成立一個獨立的犯罪類型不同於我們刑法27110年以上無期徒刑跟死刑它比這個普通殺人罪更重它用一個獨立的犯罪類型的方式去做思考"},{"start":13958.425,"end":13977.512,"text":"這個比修286會好一點點286的方向基本上我們也尊重但是就286它會涉及到它是一個過失犯在那它是一個加重結果犯嘛它跟271其實不太一樣不太一樣所以我們比較prefer就是說是不是修272一個獨立的加重類型來處理的第一點回答各位委員"},{"start":13978.252,"end":14000.319,"text":"第二委員 剛剛黃委員有提到我們刑分可不可以加一個不得假釋這涉及到我們刑法總則的刑法種類的問題我們刑法總則的刑法種類其實它有明定我們現在並沒有一個刑法的種類叫做有期徒刑或無期徒刑不得假釋這種刑法種類"},{"start":14001.799,"end":14017.334,"text":"所以你要去把他刑分你會變成所有條文的刑分都後面未來都一一去加不得假釋不得假釋哪有不得假釋要逐一去檢視還有特別法呢我們特別刑法有些很重的搞不好每一條都要去加不得假釋所以我們基本上對不得假釋這個方向"},{"start":14017.955,"end":14034.43,"text":"我們也是贊成的但是我們比較贊成是修在刑總在刑總在某一個特定的犯罪類型或宣告型在某一個程度以上我們就規定他不得假釋而不是規定在刑分變成一個刑法種類的爭議那個刑法修正非常龐大未來刑分非常非常的龐大"},{"start":14035.491,"end":14063.072,"text":"這第二點我再跟委員報告第三點跟委員報告就是說的確本部在不得假釋這個本部現在法案已經提到行政院也在審議中也跟各位委員報告也開過會了本部基本上對特定的重大犯罪宣告刑在一定以上的我們是行總規定就是不讓他假釋所以不得假釋這一點基本上是本部的一個重要的一個對外已經宣示過的一個政策立場所以以上三點跟各位委員報告"},{"start":14065.916,"end":14076.367,"text":"黃委員先舉手,先到黃委員市長,我們就直接討論具體的問題啦你剛還是在做抽象的立場的宣示,這樣很難推進"},{"start":14079.039,"end":14101.124,"text":"具體的來講放在271裡面你們是絕對反對還是可以同意這是第一個問題這是我剛剛問的立法形式的問題你剛剛還是在跟我雞同牙講嘛這個是一個特殊類型的犯罪當然是一個特殊類型的犯罪嘛但什麼時候規定不同類型的犯罪一定要規定在不同的條次裡"},{"start":14102.324,"end":14117.497,"text":"沒有這樣的規定我們當然在立法基礎上針對特殊類型的犯罪如果可能的話把它獨立成條這個是一個修法這個是一個修法的方式但問題是什麼但問題是一個法律案"},{"start":14119.08,"end":14135.114,"text":"從開始提推動到最後結束那要花非常久的時間了要花非常久的時間了所以我現在才在很認真的思考你先不要去跟我談是271要放在第四項還是你要另外起一條先不談"},{"start":14136.375,"end":14151.686,"text":"形式的問題,以實質的內容來講以實質的內容來講以裡面的方式對於未滿7歲的人殺害主死刑或無期徒刑這個是我剛剛問的第一個問題第一個問題法務部的立場贊成還是不贊成"},{"start":14153.919,"end":14166.357,"text":"那第二個問題剛剛其實你話說一半我為什麼說你話說一半那當然嘛你如果放在新分裡面的話那當然各個新分是不是要在特殊類型的"},{"start":14168.154,"end":14183.689,"text":"特別嚴重的犯罪去明定去明定無期復刑不得假設假釋 那個當然就是揪到個別的條文的時候再來去處理嘛你如果永遠要執著於說法條跟法條彼此之間的橫平我老實講"},{"start":14185.049,"end":14211.53,"text":"你回不了啦你回不了我為什麼說回不了我上次公聽會就講了嘛你現在刑分的條文真的彼此之間都有橫屏嗎你隨便自己去檢查就知道了嘛上次公聽會的時候就舉了啊就有關於在強盜罪的時候在強盜的過程當中致人於死你也是死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑啊那大家現在就覺得很困惑啊"},{"start":14212.998,"end":14237.803,"text":"那如果你在以暴力的方式侵害財產法益在這個過程當中發生死亡的結果可以判得到死刑那你以凌虐的方式是去侵害人的身體權跟他的健康權然後發生死亡的結果不可以這樣子規定那大家就看不懂啊"},{"start":14238.812,"end":14267.088,"text":"就立法者在做所謂的什麼罪責相當法律權衡條文彼此之間橫平的時候到底在想什麼東西你完全沒有辦法解釋得過去嘛所以還是回來一個最根本的問題刑總有規定刑的種類裡面有包括一個無期徒刑但是無期徒刑在什麼樣的狀況下可以假釋在刑法總則裡面有另外一個通則性的規定也就是"},{"start":14268.493,"end":14279.269,"text":"不分任何類型的犯罪你只要背叛無期徒刑滿足刑法總則的這個要件原則上就有假釋的可能性"},{"start":14280.506,"end":14302.572,"text":"那但是如果在刑法分則裡面在刑法分則裡面我特別的去排除刑法總則的規定也就是刑法總則只是一個一般性的規定在被宣告是無期徒刑的時候原則上滿足一些要件那接下來有可能透過假釋的審查機制有可能被假釋"},{"start":14303.732,"end":14318.91,"text":"那我在刑分的立法技術上面針對特定嚴重類型的犯罪的無期徒刑立法者明定不得假釋也就是他明文有意識的要去排除掉刑法總則那一個假釋條文的規定"},{"start":14320.815,"end":14334.596,"text":"在目前法務部的立場針對這樣子的立法方式你們贊成或不贊成那如果不贊成的話理由是什麼我具體的問題我想再聚焦一點"},{"start":14337.614,"end":14364.66,"text":"那是莊委員你要先講嗎然後再請法務部一併說我剛才講完再一併一併來請法務部來做說明這次的一個修法裡面我看這個憤怒那確實可以帶動改革這是好事但是基本的原則還是要掌握住這個條文放在271來修的話倒又稍微有一點道理放在286的話我就覺得是不通"},{"start":14365.76,"end":14371.954,"text":"但是也必須要去考量到就是說你在271你這樣去增訂"},{"start":14375.507,"end":14404.105,"text":"變成是對於未滿7歲的人以凌虐的方式去犯第一項的犯罪也就是說其實凌虐的方式凌虐本來它會產生很多結果影響他的身體健康啦有可能凌虐到最後是輕傷啦有可能是重傷啦有可能是致死啦放在286那個地方會有問題放在271的話就是表明的就是說我用這個凌虐的方式我主觀上我就是要讓你死我就是要殺人嘛"},{"start":14405.066,"end":14428.269,"text":"放在271就是主觀上就是要殺人了嘛就不用去討論286了嘛可是這樣也有一個問題在就是說那我們去把它特定出一個對於未滿7歲的人就變成說跟原來的殺人罪比他還要重原來的殺人罪是變成死刑無期徒刑10年以上那你針對未滿7歲的人就只有剩下一個"},{"start":14428.649,"end":14458.133,"text":"更重了就變成死刑跟無期徒刑那這會有一個問題你在變我們刑法總則我看這個王富密你過去你在審判時你也非常清楚啊一個判決下來的時候我們第一個考量到的就是說你這個犯罪行為你的動機到底是什麼你的目的到底是什麼還會看看他的他的這個手段到底是什麼還有他的犯過態度是什麼還有說他那個思慮當下是什麼你這個一定下去以後你刑法57條全部都不能用了"},{"start":14459.753,"end":14467.23,"text":"會有這樣的一個問題啊所以這個是不是也請法國部也一併來做一個思考否則你放到271體力 對了放286完全不對"},{"start":14472.247,"end":14501.656,"text":"因為凌虐你放在286的話你就變成說你把故意跟過失那個界線你把它給混淆掉了完全混淆掉了也就是說前面的一個犯罪行為你到最後產生的這樣一個結果它可能是過失它可能是間接的因果關係那那個地方大家回不清啦那你既然要保每一個黨大家都要保護幼童大家都要保護這個不用懷疑啦去虐童甚至讓他致死的當然是可惡啊"},{"start":14503.909,"end":14515.558,"text":"可惡每一個人的界線不一樣啊你們可能認為是殺掉是最可惡槍斃最可惡我不認為我認為就是官啊所以講到那個無期徒刑不得假釋那個違背法理但我又喜歡喔我又覺得合理喔讓他出來幹什麼可是你說讓他死掉會一了百了死掉他多爽啊他犯了那麼大的一個行為就砰死掉槍斃死掉了他就不見了"},{"start":14531.776,"end":14546.587,"text":"這只是滿足我們社會上的一個憤怒的情緒而已可是對刑法上我們講的原理原則完全不通啊你說到底是基於是要報復這也不是硬報啊硬報就剝奪掉而已他根本就沒有痛苦啊你說要讓他再回歸誰敢讓他回歸"},{"start":14551.899,"end":14561.101,"text":"也不是所謂的對這種急刑犯大家也不敢去用教育刑啊所以我反而會認為說應該一併說明啦你這不是只要偵查而已啦你這還要審判咧還有法官要審判的問題咧你就把它整個刑法五十七條設定出來這個幾百年的這個大家全世界在看你去看這個條文啦幾乎全世界每一個國家的刑法這一條都長得一模一樣啦"},{"start":14580.131,"end":14598.542,"text":"要留給法官一個獨立審判空間嘛那你現在不是喔 你現在是 就是死刑就是無期徒刑要比殺人罪還要重這第一個道理在什麼地方我也可以講啊你殺害幼童 可不可惡 非常可惡啊殺害直系血親尊親族 殺害自己的父母親 更可惡啊法理上大家要講清楚啦不然只是大家用憤怒來帶動這個改革 還不夠"},{"start":14610.038,"end":14623.717,"text":"帶動改革很好但是呢 還是要講清楚 請法務部這個地方講清楚我是認為會衝擊到五十七條讓你再重新 大家重新 重新回去做法官案的時候看了五十七條 再到二七一定下去的時候你也不知道要怎麼看"},{"start":14626.87,"end":14641.008,"text":"黃委員我想補充說明一下我想這一次的修法為什麼有這麼強大的民意其實也站出來大家其實看到了一個情況就是未滿7歲的幼童他跟成人道道地地不一樣"},{"start":14642.329,"end":14658.975,"text":"對於成人家豬在他身上任何的暴力或傷害他是毫無反抗能力所以大人的責任當然是非常的重大今天這樣一個修法一個很重要的意義是警告所有的大人就是對於孩童你只有保護之責"},{"start":14660.373,"end":14678.259,"text":"你任何人如果要對孩子去動手傷害甚至造成他的死亡這個社會上在我們的刑法上面未來透過修法我們就是宣示一個很重大的意義就是國家會保護你刑法也不允許然後告訴所有的成年人"},{"start":14678.979,"end":14704.841,"text":"你不要有任何想要動手去傷害孩子的念頭因為他那麼的幼小會因為你這個不當的行為舉措就剝奪掉他的性命我覺得這個是社會上到目前為止非常有共識的那現在看起來法務部的態度要往這個方向去做基本上我是非常贊成的就是法務部在講的更清楚如果是271也很好就在271然後你們要怎麼另立法條"},{"start":14705.842,"end":14725.021,"text":"因為現在感受到法務部已經接受這樣的民意了你們也認真去思考到底要怎麼立法了那就是把它講清楚要不然大家就會質疑說你的言義只是拖延喔我剛剛講過我們這次的立法院開會開到7月底如果法務部跟專家學院跟法界人士"},{"start":14725.962,"end":14750.827,"text":"都有共識的話 你是可以盡快送出版本司法法治委員會盡快審查 院會就可以通過在七月底之前 我想我們可以用大家的力量共同完成這樣的一個修法的工作所以我希望法務部可以再加油就這個部分 這次沒有迴避的空間大家就是認真來研議 是怎麼修的問題不是用研議為藉口不修 以上 謝謝"},{"start":14757.46,"end":14768.226,"text":"主要是要跟次郎報告一下因為次郎剛剛的意思是說修271不修286你們想法比較這樣但是這個會不會造成一個狀況就是說因為271條他是故意殺人"},{"start":14770.467,"end":14792.928,"text":"那將來這些犯罪行為的人他會不會在凌虐致死之後他很容易就逃脫掉271條的規範然後你286又不修到時候等於是沒有處罰他這個行為了如果你要另立一個條文對於這些殷佑同的你要另立一個殺人殺殷佑同這個也有一個問題就我剛剛講的"},{"start":14794.83,"end":14819.806,"text":"他今天如果一直堅持說他的凝虐是前面的行為他的故意只存在凝虐他並沒有對於後面死亡他有故意的話那你等於是跳脫了271條或是你另立了條文如果你又不修286的話那變成說他這個部分反而我們這次就沒有處理到所以我才會說我個人會覺得不是只有271條的問題啦應該286是一個主要的問題因為他必須要處理後面加重結果"},{"start":14824.09,"end":14833.228,"text":"發生之後你要怎麼樣去處理這個是我個人給法務部的一個建議另外就是還有一個剛剛一直有提到假釋的部分"},{"start":14835.014,"end":14861.083,"text":"我從上個會期就一直有提到假釋應該要把它分級分成我們要加強它的比如說無期徒刑你假釋那假釋的話它應該要分成幾個不同的條件甚至是不是有一種無期徒刑是永久不得假釋但是現在我們會遇到一個狀況就是現行法律的問題這就是為什麼我覺得無期徒刑我在這次不拿出來討論"},{"start":14862.804,"end":14871.282,"text":"會出現一個就是現在申請假釋是向矯正署那將來如果說我們修法的話我們對於武器徒刑得不得假釋那這個"},{"start":14874.071,"end":14899.19,"text":"這個決定的人是誰是法官還是矯正署這個我們也都要在法制上面要先釐清就是是不是我們叫讓法官去決定不得假釋或是多少年後才得假釋這是讓法官決定的只有法官可以決定那這是現在這個假釋的部分就是矯正署所以這一塊我們必須先克服我覺得這個都沒有那麼簡單而且將來可能還要再開幾場公定會來決定這個幾十年來的一個大問題"},{"start":14902.532,"end":14917.126,"text":"所以我想說要麻煩次長參考一下我剛剛提到的就271條如果我們只在這邊做處理的話將來一定掛一漏萬會有很多行為會沒有辦法處理到是王委員"},{"start":14920,"end":14927.166,"text":"那個就是剛才法務部的見解好像說修271條比修286條更好但是你要另訂條文我們必須說這個刑法的修正事實上已經花了很久的時間"},{"start":14940.758,"end":14965.423,"text":"那事實上在社會大眾希望能夠我們提出這修法已經非常久那今天我們進入了逐條的這個討論所以我剛才在執行社我也特別講那當然我們肯定說法務部終於願意從善如流但是呢在時間上如果你要另訂條文的話說實在立法院也沒有辦法等你啦"},{"start":14966.343,"end":14981.607,"text":"因為如果按照你在另訂條文那我的理解就是在拖延啊又是在拖延修法的時程而已所以我覺得我做一個具體的建議啦我在剛才質詢部長的時候也說今天不管是271條或286條"},{"start":14985.228,"end":14997.461,"text":"那既然法務部今天也可以接受對於七歲以下 凌虐致死的可以處以死刑或無期徒刑的話那是不是要請法務部 你在我們現在委員所提出來的271條或者286條 你們做條文的修正"},{"start":15005.589,"end":15025.086,"text":"好 這是我們比較可以接受的否則的話你又另訂條文 那是怎樣呢我們今天還全部都停下來再繼續等行政院的版本嗎要等到什麼時候呢 那會不會來呢到時候又有變化又怎麼辦呢所以我覺得今天如果法務部沒有辦法提出你條文的修正的話那就按照我們今天 就是委員"},{"start":15029.91,"end":15041.365,"text":"所提出來的版本我們就這樣走下去啦我個人是做這樣的一個具體的建議那基本上很難再接受說你再另訂條文去做修正好不好 以上謝謝"},{"start":15043.183,"end":15069.161,"text":"好 謝謝 請問還有哪位好 莊委員謝謝 朝偉我剛其實我也贊同吳宗憲 朝偉的一個講法啦但是大家話要講清楚啦話要講清楚的原因就在於說你286跟271 放在271它會產生一個重大的一個不同的地方你現在民意上有壓力你在這個那麼多公民團體他們有說要把這個把它更重"},{"start":15070.1,"end":15092.76,"text":"大家都聽到 各黨都聽到 但要講清楚 凌虐致死的部分 他就不是殺人要講好 放在271是用凌虐的方式去殺人 這要講好喔 這要講好喔所以呢 呃 你說要按照程序去走 我也願意啊 我也願意啊 只是說 咱都沒那麼厲害啦"},{"start":15093.976,"end":15123.282,"text":"立委不是我們做得了以後留下一個大家好像滿足一時而已還是慎重一點啦我到現在沒有看到誰表達反對要加重都可以但是我譬如說放在286的我是反對的我反對的原因就是說你真的會把故意跟過失把它那個界線給模糊化那你放在271的話我的擔憂只是怕一個就是說你創設了一個比剝奪掉生命法義更高的"},{"start":15123.982,"end":15147.621,"text":"用一個太樣來讓他變成一個帝王條款本來是你殺人的話死刑無期徒刑十年以上那你現在針對到幼童的部分那你就變成你比一般的殺人罪還要重要做這樣的一個差別待遇的時候講清楚我也可以接受但問題就是說怎麼去講清楚怎麼去講清楚說"},{"start":15151.847,"end":15155.191,"text":"我這陣子來我沒多少接觸說,台師是大人的,反而沒有那麼重,他的法定性沒有那麼重"},{"start":15169.128,"end":15175.569,"text":"十年以上沒有沒有 我要講說為什麼我們說因為小孩子沒有反他沒有任何反擊的能力啦八九十歲躺在那邊他也沒有反擊能力啦我在講的是說我們立法的時候要讓他更周延你們的思考點我知道你們要嚇阻我當然知道我的意思是說你把他獨立出來這樣的一個太陽會掛一路亂"},{"start":15197.998,"end":15222.23,"text":"你人這麼多你就給過就好了,我沒意見啦,我是跟你提醒啦我只是說這個我知道,就是說那個中委員剛講的跟我剛講的其實是類似的啦對對類似的好那這部分就對,我想大家的想法應該都差不多啦那就請法務部這邊回應一下剛剛的我們的問題好,根據個人報告啦齁"},{"start":15222.87,"end":15245.817,"text":"那就這個殺人的犯罪手法或犯罪年齡我們做一個獨立的犯罪類型來做一個特別的加重的規範那基本上這本部政策立場我們贊成我們一直在強調那只是說這個最低刑度要到什麼時候多少刑度以上這個我們大家可以討論因為涉及到整個刑法它互相的可能會互相有一些抵觸或互相影響所以加重部分我們是贊成"},{"start":15248.018,"end":15276.356,"text":"就是獨立的一個犯罪性但是要跟各位報告一點就是說如果修在271有一個缺點是什麼因為我們接下來有個272他是犯前條之罪的加重直系血清罪那如果我們271已經對未滿7歲的獨立犯罪類型了後面那條是犯前面之罪加重二分之就矛盾因為272他是對直系血清加重你271是對未滿7歲之人加重我們272又規定犯前條之罪要加重這兩條就衝突了"},{"start":15278.226,"end":15304.248,"text":"所以這個解套方式要不然就是要修個272-1要不然就是要272要跟著修你不能單獨只修271加一項它會跟272會衝突這個要跟各委員報告那剛剛黃委員提到就是說可不可以在刑分裡面未來就是說某一種特定犯罪類型我就特別寫說這種犯罪不得假釋我還跟黃委員報告就是說因為我們刑法總則裡面"},{"start":15305.569,"end":15320.087,"text":"所有的組型的種類他其實規定在33條裡面有規定哪幾種組型啊各種組型沒有一種組型叫做無期徒刑不得假釋或者是有一種另外一個叫做有期徒刑不得假釋沒有這種刑種刑罰種類的存在"},{"start":15322.93,"end":15342.637,"text":"所以說我們比較建議就是說去修刑法的不得假釋的規定來做統一的適用而不要用個別的刑分去規定因為個別的刑分我剛剛也說明了我們法條非常非常多未來會有不斷增加更惡劣的犯罪我們要不斷去修那個法某一個犯罪不得假釋不得假釋還有一些特別法的規定那會非常非常龐大"},{"start":15343.757,"end":15362.578,"text":"所以我們基本上就不得假設這點我們在特定發掘類型裡面我們是政策方向的贊成那基本上我們比較希望規範在行種裡面那至於剛剛委員一直提到的286要不要修我再次強調本部立場不是說286不要修我只是說271要修286也要修的狀態之下"},{"start":15364.8,"end":15391.611,"text":"哪一種對這個整個法的影響比較小286我們不是說不要修那286修的話有一個缺點是什麼因為286它基本上是一個故意犯加一個過失犯的一個犯罪類型現在我們不修法前年夜七歲致死已經處到十年以上跟無期徒刑了如果再加一個死刑上去的話它會變成一個什麼狀態它會跟我們殺人罪一模一樣的刑度"},{"start":15393.036,"end":15410.88,"text":"會變成我們286的故意加過失 刑度會等於271的直接殺人故意就是說刑罰會產生一個法律上的衝突 倒不是本部說不主張修286 倒不是這樣286它那個級距已經拉高到有一個極致了"},{"start":15412.028,"end":15440.247,"text":"已經到一個極致的產生那這部分倒是根據報告最後一點就是委員提到就是說我們本部是不是會不會拖延我跟委員報告我們在部長或是我們政事他也對外宣示在委員會宣示的我們三個月內一定會把相關的條文送到行政院那我們也會跟行政院溝通是不是能夠盡快的把它完成相關的修法程序當時部長有對外宣示是三個月內的時間"},{"start":15441.348,"end":15463.772,"text":"以上說明 謝謝那另外我跟次長補充一下就剛次長說你說把這個泥虐致死變成拉成跟殺人罪的刑度一樣但是你看328條第三項強盜致死的交通結果犯他也是拉到跟殺人一樣所以他我國的法律的體制上並不是沒有這樣的設計所以我這邊先提醒一下次長那洪委員"},{"start":15467.096,"end":15484.723,"text":"第一個啦,他剛剛是說三個月法務部會給行政院嘛對吧然後行政院什麼時候會給立法院大概就盡快嘛這個詞我們也聽過很多次啦,我不用再複述啦不用再一一盤點但我還是回到實質的問題"},{"start":15486.781,"end":15514.127,"text":"剛剛你講到無期徒刑可不可以假釋的問題至少應該刑總很熟刑的種類規定在刑總33條刑總33條他只有講無期徒刑33條在刑的種類裡面從來沒有去處理無期徒刑可不可以假釋在什麼條件下面假釋所以不可以假釋的無期徒刑本來就在33條的射程範圍之內了何必要新增刑法的種類"},{"start":15517.711,"end":15535.382,"text":"我的說法絕對沒有錯啊因為你現在是把過去累積的食物上面的慣行當成是無期徒刑就一定可以假釋但無期徒刑可以假釋是在後面77條的規定啊在一定的條件下面他可以假釋啊"},{"start":15537.062,"end":15560.432,"text":"在刑分裡面去明定特定殘忍的犯罪類型不得假釋他沒有違反刑的種類他還是回到刑總33條的無期徒刑刑總33條的無期徒刑他沒有鮮豔的在法條裡面去規定是可以假釋還不可以假釋無期徒刑什麼時候可以假釋那是在77條的規定"},{"start":15562.614,"end":15583.578,"text":"所以不需要在行種裡面去增加一個所謂要有不得假釋的五級圖形形分才可以做這樣的處理我的理解應該沒有錯吧因為我們這樣子討論問題我覺得很難聚焦所以是不是一個一個來剛剛次長所講的如果跟272之間的銜接關係的話的確放在271的最後一項"},{"start":15589.039,"end":15605.495,"text":"看起來會很醜所謂很醜就是一個法條規定的很醜但是實質在法律的適用上面我是不覺得會產生任何問題啦因為只是你在272犯前條之罪的時候絕對不可能包括271第四項嘛書難想像啦"},{"start":15607.757,"end":15631.222,"text":"構成要件不會該當啦但是不會排除272條它實際上面的適用範圍那第三個是 也就是回復剛剛莊銳選委員所提的問題在外國的立法例針對特定年齡以下的幼童犯殺人罪者我現在在講的不是寧願致死喔"},{"start":15632.142,"end":15641.854,"text":"就是被殺害的客體是一定歲數以下的孩童除死刑或無期徒刑也就是較一般的一般殺人罪加重處罰的立法律是有的"},{"start":15642.918,"end":15667.365,"text":"在美國很多州針對特定身份而受害的人因為要加強他的保護小孩是其中之一給他特別的刑法規定那個是有的那其實你也不用去擔心到說什麼57條絕對沒有什麼審酌57條量刑的空間在我們現在的刑法分則裡面特定的犯罪結合犯的時候"},{"start":15668.797,"end":15691.909,"text":"只能處死刑或無期徒刑在我們目前刑分的條文裡面也有啊市長我應該沒有說錯吧226條之一就是一個最典型的類型啊它只有兩種選項不是死刑就是無期徒刑啊所以我還是回來我那個特定具體的問題就刑法分則裡面明定"},{"start":15694.048,"end":15707.413,"text":"在刑的種類的選擇上面我明定他是一個不可以假釋的無期徒刑到底有什麼問題還是法務部認為你們還是不贊成因為這個會牽涉到很具體我們接下來271要怎麼處理的問題以上"},{"start":15711.138,"end":15730.497,"text":"那個剛剛這部分我是那個認同黃國昌委員他所提到其實如果說放在271裡面多一項的話其實272的試用基本上沒有問題因為272它有它有一個構成要件就已經限縮在直系血清素嘛所以它在它在試用271的時候它不會去跑到"},{"start":15731.198,"end":15748.262,"text":"比他年輕的幼童去所以這個在適用上面確實是剛剛黃委員講的沒錯這會讓條文的編排變得很醜但是他不會影響到實務上面的適用所以這部分是我覺得剛剛黃委員這塊講我是認同那這也給次長就參考一下黃委員"},{"start":15752.364,"end":15773.257,"text":"我想其實可能對於比較懂法的人在法條上 在法義上都非常講究但是今天為什麼有這麼大的來自於民間的聲音希望修法那最後其實都非常周到的"},{"start":15773.957,"end":15796.992,"text":"直接把第286條提供給我相信都是跨黨派的委員但是我也會認為其實希望修法的人他不會說執著於我今天一定要放在哪一條文裡面他重點是來自於必須把保護幼兒避免凌虐甚至凌虐致死"},{"start":15797.552,"end":15799.253,"text":"應該要處以即行的這樣的一個精神跟原則放到法條裡面希望這樣的一個最基本的正義得以實現因為我不是學法的我非常能夠理解很多的父母他的心情"},{"start":15814.179,"end":15834.835,"text":"對我來講比如我今天坐在這邊所以我剛才講說你今天在271條去修或者在286條去修對於像我這樣的一個父母我不會去堅持雖然我自己提案是286條但是如果你今天把我們希望修的精神能夠放到271條"},{"start":15836.716,"end":15852.339,"text":"OK啊也OK啊但是我們不能接受的就是一再的拖延嘛剛才當然剛才法部說我們絕對不會拖延可是我剛才一聽三個月三個月這就代表我們這個會期就算等行政院"},{"start":15853.342,"end":15868.781,"text":"大概等不到了這個會期就落空了到了下個會期有沒有送來我們也不知道但是我們真的很擔心在這一段時間裡面如果有同樣我們不希望看到像凱凱案的悲劇但是如果很不幸的"},{"start":15869.241,"end":15893.996,"text":"也有類似這樣的悲劇 請問一下我們如何面對這麼龐大的民間的聲音我們如何去面對這些受傷害的兒童好 所以我現在具體而言 我剛才就做具體的建議就是是不是要我們今天在我們的主條討論裡面如果法務部 其實我們現在聽到現在法務部也已經願意崇善如流啦 是不是"},{"start":15895.236,"end":15915.986,"text":"那是不是就在271條裡面 法部提出你的條文修正嘛對我來講 今天我在這邊 我沒有很堅持一定要放在286 可是286怎麼樣修法那如果在271條 把剛才我們所堅持 就是民間的聲音 民間的希望把它放進去"},{"start":15918.291,"end":15944.082,"text":"我們也可以 我們也可以接受因為確實啊 剛才在講說那個272條我也趕快去看一下那272條也許你們很在乎這個對啊 就法律上要很漂亮 修得很漂亮可是他剛272條完全沒有漢格嘛請問一下七歲以下的人怎麼會變成直系尊親屬呢也不可能的事情嘛"},{"start":15945.123,"end":15973.117,"text":"所以我真的還是具體建議啦是不是請法部就271條你提出你的條文修正你提出你的條文修正就是說我們也兼顧今天立法委員是反應民間的聲音然後法部也願意來把你們的修法的想法放到271條如果大家都有共識的話我真的很希望這條這條我們還要在那邊去再去搞冷凍一個月"},{"start":15974.358,"end":15990.152,"text":"很難看啦我們再去搞冷凍一個月然後再跑到大家再去什麼按鈴表決我相信對面的我相信很多民進黨的委員也不願意這樣啊在這個問題上我們還要再做表決沒有必要所以是不是請法務部能夠把你們的修正條文能夠具體的如果你覺得21條比286條好那我們也可以接受你就把"},{"start":15998.88,"end":16014.757,"text":"把那271條文怎麼樣來修正嗎如果我們所需要的民間生意可以符合的話那我們也可以來看看不是說完全不能接受啦謝謝這個沈委員有先舉手 先讓沈委員好 主席齁這個"},{"start":16022.403,"end":16036.124,"text":"我想我完全理解今天這個案子這麼多的委員有提案那針對現在社會輿論事實上大家對於這個聶桐案的這些發生的這些悲劇大家其實都人神共憤"},{"start":16037.932,"end":16067.311,"text":"但是這樣子的情緒是一回事的那我們立法要怎麼立來達到大家現在社會所期待的這個目的去遏止這個法律就是以刑度來遏止刑法的修正來遏止這樣子的犯罪行為這個大家也都很一致"},{"start":16068.971,"end":16093.677,"text":"但是我覺得我們作為一個立法機關尤其是我們立法院裡面立法機關裡面的司法法治委員會我覺得我們的立法也不能說也不要說我們今天通過就好醜沒關係這個我覺得這個這個我稍微坐在這裡你也應該也不太能接受說沒有我們今天就是通過啊這個有漢格"},{"start":16097.502,"end":16121.816,"text":"這個二七一條 它有 妳剛剛講的就是漢格有啦 妳說犯前條對 怎麼可能發生 但是我們卻這樣立法 這就是漢格啊漢格的意思就是這樣漢格的意思是說妳立了一個法 但是這個法是 狀況是跟現實是矛盾的它就是漢格嘛 我的意思說 我不是說這樣子我的意思只是說 我們可以避免這種狀況"},{"start":16123.342,"end":16152.062,"text":"我們可以在立法上面避免這種狀況我們為什麼要立在現在明知道有這樣子的漢格我們還要堅持要立一個有看起來有漢格的用剛剛黃國昌委員的話講就是看起來很醜的法條我們做司法法制我們做立法院裡面的就法律來講我們算是最專業的委員會去做已經要去立一個我們現在就知道他很醜我們現在就知道他有漢格的法律我們為什麼不"},{"start":16153.583,"end":16164.589,"text":"大家就來談出一個沒有漢格的法律條文這個我覺得我個人是這樣建議今天我們在271條立法要立在271條還是另立一個271條之一"},{"start":16175.624,"end":16203.891,"text":"或者是這個要再加上這個有過失有這個淩月致死這個286條這都是不一樣的這個立法金融我覺得這個其實在這裡我相信兩黨的委員大家對於這個社會的感受以及這個我們對於這樣子人神共憤的這些犯罪行為的"},{"start":16207.3,"end":16224.173,"text":"這種憤怒我覺得都是一致的問題是我們在做立法的時候我們還是必須要就立法最根本的最根本的所謂罪責相當所謂立法刑罰的衡平我們還是必須要考慮這是我們立法者的責任我們不考慮的話沒有人會考慮這個事情"},{"start":16226.507,"end":16249.326,"text":"我們不能說我們今天大家在討論這個立法原則然後就扣上個帽子說那你這個就是反對你也不能說沒有列死刑他就是沒有處罰剛剛整個討論過程好像說沒有這個法條沒有列死刑他就是沒有處罰 不是他為什麼 那就我們所有的法條都判處死刑或"},{"start":16250.444,"end":16271.285,"text":"三年以下有歧途刑那每一個法條都這樣列那就每一個法行為太陽都有判死刑的可能這當然法律不會這樣列的原因就是因為它有列出死刑的這個形種它就是本身就是一個法律各種犯罪侵害不同法役它的這個犯罪的橫評"},{"start":16272.979,"end":16293.638,"text":"這是他罪行的衡平嘛一個是侵害生命的法義一個是凌虐致死這個是侵害身體的法義造成的結果一個殺人罪以凌虐的方式來進行殺人罪這個是生命法義的侵害這個兩個我們在立法上面當然要去考慮他的衡平啊"},{"start":16295.76,"end":16320.856,"text":"那個莊委員先舉手所以我們讓莊委員完之後換王委員謝謝我也不會講很多啦我覺得該講的我把它講一講啦那今天其實提案這麼多啦各黨都有提案啦都有提案那我都覺得我剛以為我們是要剛要聚焦在271跟286所以我才會講說陳廷輝委員77條不然我們都不要不然我現在看一看的話提案的人也都不來提案的人也都沒有來"},{"start":16323.885,"end":16350.139,"text":"跑掉了 或者都不來那你說陳定輝沒來 那其他張志倫這些一大堆人也都沒來沒有 我是說啊就不能說因為陳定輝沒有來 我們就沒有考量到他的部分他那個部分是無期徒刑到底要不要假釋要不要排除在外的一個問題 這第一個第二個大家再仔細再想一想啦真的會衝突啦你去看"},{"start":16351.331,"end":16360.19,"text":"你就看那個二十二章刑法兩百七十一條在殺人罪章跟淩淚致死你放在第二十三章"},{"start":16361.593,"end":16384.93,"text":"立法尤其是整部刑法你每一章每一章不一樣那個罪名是不同的他的罪職也是不同的你殺人罪當然就是侵害到生命法義嘛那你整個保護的就是生命法義啊那你這個在23章的傷害罪章裡面是保護身體法義啊那兩個不同的東西喔"},{"start":16385.791,"end":16410.431,"text":"你一定必須要去跟他對他做差別待遇啊那像比如說剛吳宗憲委你提到說哎呦啊那到時候還有故意到過失齁如果放在這個啊這個放在整個對死亡的加重結果沒有故意的時候齁啊那個人就沒有處罰到到不是沒有處罰到是說沒有用到那麼重不是沒有處罰到死掉了怎麼哪有可能沒有處罰到齁"},{"start":16411.972,"end":16431.326,"text":"除非他有一些主確違法的事由啊 不然哪有可能說沒有處罰到要讓他加重 要產生嚇阻我看大家都一樣 但只是說體力上怎麼安排或者說你要把他提升到這個殺人罪章裡面"},{"start":16433.768,"end":16449.544,"text":"271條你再獨立去把它放一個行為太樣叫凌虐要殺人故意用凌虐的方式用凌虐的方式產生殺人的效果主觀上都是這樣要把它獨立出來你說法務部這個地方看起來好像也可以接受這樣的一個太樣但問題就是說"},{"start":16451.286,"end":16473.094,"text":"那又跟前面大家的主張是無期徒刑你說不得不得這個只要是淩淚的方式都不得去假釋的那你說又要放在刑法分責裡面你又不去討論這個刑法總則第77條假釋的規定又很奇怪我這樣提出來是再次的提醒要不然你怎麼辦 恕災人 我要他跟你們說很用心很盡責任跟你們說好 謝謝那我們請王委員"},{"start":16479.943,"end":16496.003,"text":"好我具體來說第一個就是剛剛講說這個條文有沒有美醜的問題我覺得條文的美醜難道會比孩子的生命更重要嗎所以我要講的就是說今天"},{"start":16497.096,"end":16509.391,"text":"我們也有討論到就是說在這個條文裡面在這個條文裡面只要這中間沒有漢格而且只要到時候在行法272條的執行它會出現問題嗎"},{"start":16513.035,"end":16525.739,"text":"二十七二條的執行是不會出現問題除非說我們今天這樣修了會影響二十七二條的執行二十七二條就是對執行專清署加重期刑嘛那它不會去影響二十七二條的執行"},{"start":16529.6,"end":16552.125,"text":"那我覺得我們今天一直把它焦灼在說啊這個271條怎麼定然後呢跟272條這樣看起來這樣子不好看等等之類的我覺得這個說實在我覺得民間團體是沒有辦法去接受而且對我像我這樣的人我根本沒有辦法想像為什麼我們的法律怎麼我們的法律是這樣定的啊"},{"start":16553.612,"end":16578.971,"text":"他不是應該就是保障人民的生命財產安全嗎還是說他編排起來看起來好看而已好所以呢我在這邊做具體的一個建議啦所以我剛才所以他當然是聽那個法務部的意見法務部因為說要到還要搞三個月之後才送行政院這個時間呢確實是拖延確實拖延好那所以我覺得今天我們已經可以去接受那你"},{"start":16579.711,"end":16584.834,"text":"發布對271條你去提出你的這個條文修正好我們來看是不是符合我們的這個我們這個民間團體的一個需求那另外你如果覺得你272條要再怎麼修那你再把它送過來嘛你再送過來你的修法因為我剛剛講了我們現在271條修正之後往前走不會影響272條的執行嘛"},{"start":16606.667,"end":16609.631,"text":"除非我會影響二線二條直行哇 你這個不行啊你這個兩個髮條一定要一併來修正那二線二條不會影響直行那至於在髮條上你要看起來怎麼變得美美的怎麼樣用美肌什麼我就隨便你啦"},{"start":16621.863,"end":16638.339,"text":"所以也就是說我希望今天如果法案部認為21條修正是可行的那提出條文修正那如果你提不出條文修正我們就往下走否則一直拖延而已那至於就是說如果我們21條條文修正之後然後呢你22條你再提出你的修法版本我們還是會處理嘛"},{"start":16645.546,"end":16670.601,"text":"那因為最重要我們是一定要趕快先保障保障我們的孩子的安全嘛我剛剛講如果我們在這邊拖拖拉拉拖拉又拖個半年三個月到半年那中間又發生一個什麼樣的悲劇的話我覺得我們尤其我們司法法治委員大家全部難辭其咎啊真的啊我們就自己去撞牆好了好所以我覺得這是我具體的所以我們今天既然已經進入主條討論那怎麼樣來具體的來做這個法條的修正以上"},{"start":16675.88,"end":16678.603,"text":"我們就縮短一下好不好因為吳委員還沒講過讓吳委員先說"},{"start":16682.173,"end":16707.932,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天的幾個立場坐在這裡的每一個委員即使有一些沒有坐在這裡他們也是長期關心兒童議題的委員其實立法院不分黨派立場都很一致我們要嚴肅的也願意來討論也願意來促成這個修法來滿足社會民意的期待所以沒有人反對來在刑責的部分進行加重跟調整這第一件事情"},{"start":16708.652,"end":16730.021,"text":"第二個前提是也沒有人想要拖延我們也希望能夠盡可能的在一個合宜的條文大家獲得共識之下快速的回應社會的期待所以我們也我個人也認為如果再搞個三個月半年這個恐怕我們不管行政立法各個黨派沒有人可以回應社會"},{"start":16731.101,"end":16755.899,"text":"所以第三個我是想很務實的說到條文這倒不是什麼單純用美醜來看條文而是說我們要負責任的立法在立法在修正而且這是死刑這麼嚴肅的 惡虐跟死刑這兩個議題都是無比嚴肅的如何讓法律的秩序要去避免它產生漢格的可能所以我們要負責任的去嚴謹的修法"},{"start":16756.599,"end":16775.14,"text":"所以我是很希望就是說法務部說什麼在三個月再送進來那可能就真的是我覺得是久了啦但今天如果就條文來講你要放271放272或者是有的委員現行的條文在286連放在哪個條文可能都大家的共識今天沒有辦法聚焦"},{"start":16776.301,"end":16797.721,"text":"即便方向一致,但是放在哪裡都沒有辦法聚焦,就是因為大家避免,就是要嚴謹啦我們已看第八屆、第九屆、第十一屆三度針對刑法286條的虐童刑責每一次的加重,我如果印象沒有錯的話,都是很嚴謹的討論到最後透過朝野協商去妥善的處理它"},{"start":16798.562,"end":16808.459,"text":"所以合宜的話是不是大家可以來剛剛洪威委員也同意就是這一定要有執法單位法務部要你的條文的建議"},{"start":16810.131,"end":16829.14,"text":"好像在場每個委員版本的寫法都不一致連放在哪裡都不一致所以今天我也不接受什麼三個月半年那就是很久那這個會期延會到七月底不是嗎那今天我沒進入主條了方向也慢慢的聚攏跟聚焦了就是要落實在哪一個條文文字怎麼寫"},{"start":16830.626,"end":16853.504,"text":"那今天委員會進入逐條之後如果大家同意我們就有個共識性等他的條文出來條文保留反正就是最多一個月我們草野協商就是可以具體針對法務部門行政部門的條文在草野協商那個場域大家最終去定案他這個嚴肅的條文我是不希望在院會用表決的方式"},{"start":16854.664,"end":16883.664,"text":"這種生命的這種刑責的事情我也非常期待這不應當是政治的攻防我們一定要嚴謹比嚴謹更嚴謹有共識這是最重要的所以如果會協商期限讓他這個時間去在法界、實務界再去聚攏一下大家的意見我們可以今天送出一個月內我們趕快請交委協商然後韓院長、朝委協商其實在這個會期就是可以交出我們修法的成績"},{"start":16886.467,"end":16899.244,"text":"所以說在這個會席完成的這個然後讓他們去提出更嚴謹不會掛一漏萬也不會產生漢格的條文那我覺得時間上大家應當是可以接受的"},{"start":16901.53,"end":16926.353,"text":"好 就今天立法來講 我其實沒有反對王國威委員所講的就是說我們就修271條那就請法務部趕快提條文這個我沒有反對 我剛剛所講的只是說我們今天所立的法 這個未來都是法律系的學生要唸的法條"},{"start":16927.728,"end":16940.814,"text":"我們這樣是立法十年後的法律系的大學生會說為什麼會立這種法為什麼會有六歲以下的直系血清專心署當初的立法者在想什麼"},{"start":16943.65,"end":16958.88,"text":"這個我們今天立的法,雖然說你在實務上執行,像王委員講的,在實務上執行可能沒有問題,因為不會產生這種狀況但是你在法律條文上面,你就寫出來狀況就是這樣子,你如果有6歲以下的直系血系身心屬"},{"start":16960.992,"end":16979.458,"text":"這以後的學生 念法律系的學生 當初的立法者怎麼會立這種法我只是這樣子 我講法的意思只有這樣子我說我們今天 只修271條 我並不反對但是我希望說 我們在立法過程中 我們明知道這裡在文字邏輯上面 它有一些漢格跟"},{"start":16982.239,"end":17000.153,"text":"跟剛剛黃國昌委員所講很醜的地方我們明知道我們是不是能夠避免這樣的狀況那我就實際上今天的會議我是贊成吳思耀委員長所講的就等於是一個月的時間我們就是今天保留條文在一個月的時間協商的時候"},{"start":17000.874,"end":17027.511,"text":"之前法務部一定要提出條文那我們大家在協商中就這個法務部跟我們這些的條文大家來進行因為這我們討論快超過一個小時那是不是說王委員講完之後我們就來做決定要怎麼處理要不然一個小時了來 王委員好 我覺得至少到今天為止包含法務部也好或者是民進黨團也好那終於看到"},{"start":17028.991,"end":17053.124,"text":"你們願意能夠去正面的回應民間的聲音否則之前這個超過13萬的公民的一個連署一直都沒有得到回應那今天因為剛才主席也講說我們也討論了一個小時那我在這邊就具體的第一個我希望法務部待會還是要做一下回應啦"},{"start":17053.464,"end":17064.75,"text":"因為我們剛才在互相的這個交集裡面我聽得出來法務部是可以同意在271條修正那只是他之前講說那我就什麼在另立條文271之1條因為我們在另立條文就要等你們嘛所以我想請法務部回應"},{"start":17070.453,"end":17089.573,"text":"在271條可不可以因為剛才都是說你們一個月後再來提修正版本但是如果我是認為說如果我們今天你就可以提這個條文修正的話我們其實還不用等一個月兩週之內我們在那個院會就可以去處理了"},{"start":17090.956,"end":17099.301,"text":"就還不用再等一個月兩週之內就可以去處理這個案子如果我們今天今天在我們的委員會裡面就達成協議的話所以第一個我想請法務部因為終究法務部有自己的主體性嘛那我不曉得是不是變成是民進黨團變成法務部的代言人說幫他們去決定你們一定要一個月這是其一那第二"},{"start":17116.272,"end":17119.094,"text":"如果法部說我還是要回去去做想辦法去做一些修正的話那除了271條我剛剛講當然就是凌虐對七歲以下凌虐致死應該處以死刑或無期徒刑但是286條也一定要修正"},{"start":17133.582,"end":17151.513,"text":"因為286條它除了我看到大部分的委員的提案包含國民黨團提案還有很多委員提案除了是致人於死者處死刑或無期徒刑之外那還有另外一個修法重點就是致重傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":17152.553,"end":17179.988,"text":"那你把這個致死者放到271條但是不能把286其他另外一個就是如果你重傷的這一塊就把它抹去掉了所以基本上如果待會就請法務部來說明但是如果你說我要一個月後再提版本那就是包含271、286不可能說只修271、286就全部丟掉啦他還是要做一些條文的修正好不好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":17182.063,"end":17192.533,"text":"那我看我們就直接處理嘛大家有沒有意見我們現在來談處理我們不要再談處理的是直接處理條文現在換誰講話 請主席採視一下"},{"start":17199.284,"end":17227.98,"text":"就好了 因為我們現在就開 我們剛剛說他講完那個王委員講完就我們現在就來看說我們這條到底我們是要保留呢還是我們要怎麼走法好不好王委員講完然後再吳委員你們就要怎麼處理來談就好了是請說 那個針對法務部的部分我願意可以給你們一個月的時間但你們空口的承諾恐怕沒有辦法說服大家"},{"start":17229.136,"end":17246.681,"text":"跳票的次數太多了啦所以我具體的建議今天條文全部保留出委員會全部保留出委員會就一個月的時間嘛你有一個月的時間去處理嘛一個月他還東西拿不出來那"},{"start":17247.694,"end":17267.887,"text":"就不要怪立法院一個月的時間到了以後我們按照議事規則該怎麼處理就怎麼處理我覺得這兩方面的考慮都可以兼顧到我不是無限級的等你但也不要說我一天都不給你今天走到這裡了我覺得針對小朋友的保護"},{"start":17269.161,"end":17280.812,"text":"各個黨團應該啦大家或許具體的立法技術上有一些歧見但是我覺得大的方向上沒有什麼太大的分別那所以"},{"start":17281.98,"end":17300.437,"text":"我會建議今天就請召委如果各個黨團的代表也同意今天就請召委就是兩個條文都保留送出委員會那我們在這邊要把話講得很清楚因為我相信現在很多關注的公民朋友都在看我不要讓他們誤會說你們這些立法委員"},{"start":17303.499,"end":17321.205,"text":"我們都已經連署成這樣 抗議團這樣你們還是不處理 沒有不處理今天就是條文保留出委員會 時間開始敲一個月一個月之內 請法務部把東西交出來東西沒有交出來 一個月時間到我們就到院會去處理 這是我具體的建議好 那吳委員"},{"start":17323.9,"end":17346.09,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員的發言是我剛剛發言就時間處理上我願意用在最終一個月的協商冷通期讓你們去收攏你們的條文只是說我跟他稍稍不同的是我不希望這個最後是一個月之後談不攏就院會處理我是不希望發生是院會處理也就是用表決的方式來處理這個條文"},{"start":17347.791,"end":17370.271,"text":"所以一個月的時間你去收攏條文不是說你最終朝野協商那個時候才拿出你的條文這一個月就包括法務部門去溝通也希望在我們做上協商的場域的時候大家已經對條文溝通有相對的共識好不好這是我對於法務部門的要求那另外我回到我自己對於條文的看法我們很清楚知道嘛271條是22章的殺人罪責嘛"},{"start":17374.395,"end":17398.282,"text":"那286就是傷害罪章嘛所以說如果比較起來如果就條文來講剛說落在271落在272或是286那我具體你們納入記錄我個人是認為那就是從271的就是故意傷人罪的部分來下手我個人是覺得從271的修正去下手那你們去好好去研議"},{"start":17399.082,"end":17425.419,"text":"那這個月的時間是法案研議出來之後也要進行溝通一個月後的協商場域希望大家是共識下做出決定我不希望它是院會表決處理我們回應社會的方式不是動輒表決就好這不是立法院的職責我們如何把法律調得越嚴謹越有共識這才是我們負責任的做法然後所以請主席才是"},{"start":17426.58,"end":17440.18,"text":"因為27跟286兩個是連動的啦那是不是說我們這兩個條件就依照大家的意思就予以保留那也麻煩保護部能夠在這個月趕快把按照吳委員的意思趕快把草案送過來那次長要補充什麼"},{"start":17440.981,"end":17455.748,"text":"跟委員跟大會報告就是說法務部的政策立場一定要再重申一次法務部絕對不反對修271或修286至於怎麼修我們只是提供一個法制上的意見認為這樣修比較妥適而已的第一點並不是法務部反對絕對不反對"},{"start":17457.409,"end":17478.123,"text":"第二點 剛剛如果說大院 如果貴委員會待會決議就是說一個月冷凍期那法務部會在這一個月內提出我們的法治上的意見因為法務部畢竟沒有提案嘛我們只能提供法治意見出來讓各位委員參考我們會在一個月內提出來謝謝對 好你就 你有什麼條文要怎麼修正我覺得也可以嘛反正都是意見好不好好"},{"start":17480.167,"end":17503.64,"text":"好 謝謝 那我想大家這樣有共識就好那本案審查完畢 你據審查報告提交院會公決因為有保留條文 所以本案須交黨團協商那院會討論時 由昭偉吳宗憲出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":17504.62,"end":17510.917,"text":"那本日會議議程所列事項已經處理完畢進行到此6月5日上午9時繼續開會現在休息謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16728","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e49a83869710b50b79e2506b9d78cd73cfdab1a38f0d348c00c3d61714df2b3025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-04T08:30:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T14:31:00+08:00","duration":21629,"影片長度":"06:00:29","委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員與出法定人數現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀會議意思錄"},{"start":2034.656,"end":2061.593,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第十四次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年五月二十八日星期三九十一分至十二時四十分地點群雄樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十四人列席委員政政前委員等九人列席官員金管會主委彭金榮暨所屬相關人員財政部中央銀行司法院法務部等單位代表主席賴昭吉委員會員報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":2063.034,"end":2089.447,"text":"決定議事錄確定討論事項1審查國際金融業務條例8案1本院委員沈芳惠等18人委員鍾嘉斌等17人分別擬據國際金融業務條例第13條第22條之7級第22條之16條文修正草案等二案2行政院行情審議本院委員李坤成等20人委員陳金輝等16人委員郭國文等19人委員羅廷偉等17人委員陳玉珍等16人"},{"start":2090.387,"end":2118.654,"text":"分別擬聚國際金融業務條例第22條之16條文修正草案等6案2審查證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法9案1行政案函請審議本院委員鍾嘉斌等20人委員李坤成等19人委員沈發慧等18人分別擬聚證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案等4案2本院委員林楚英等17人委員王洪維等19人委員郭國文等18人委員賴世保等32人"},{"start":2119.594,"end":2140.29,"text":"分別擬具證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案等四案三本院委員民失明等十八人擬具證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條條文修正草案案討論事項個案合併詢答經委員審發會林楚英說明提案要旨監管會主委彭金龍就行政院提案"},{"start":2141.25,"end":2157.759,"text":"報告及回應委員、提案後紀委員、林德福等14人提出質詢均經經管會彭主委、財團法案證券投資人及其後交易保護人保護中心張董事長及財政部副稅屬宋署長及相關人員予以答覆決議依說明及詢討完畢"},{"start":2159.724,"end":2180.244,"text":"二 委員質詢局答覆請補充資訊 請鄉安部會議週內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定三 委員 林楚怡 廖先祥 邱志偉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請鄉安部會議書面答覆四 討論事項 個案均另則其繼續審查 宣讀完畢好 報告委員"},{"start":2182.353,"end":2189.603,"text":"我們要確定議事錄前各位有沒有無疑沒有疑我們確定請議事委員宣讀今日的議程"},{"start":2191.499,"end":2217.692,"text":"包四項二 邀請行政院主席總書陳主席長熟知財政部莊部長翠雲內政部劉部長釋芳及法務部就近十年中央政府依《財政收支劃分法》《地方制度法》等地方政府之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效進行專庭報告並被質詢討論事項審查本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據立即將一般性補助款"},{"start":2218.152,"end":2235.06,"text":"主流波幅與地方政府之提案如復建請供決案宣讀完畢好 我們介紹在場的委員跟與會政府的觀念請各位媒體的帥哥美女可以不可以讓我們開會好不好你們拍的時間也夠長了請好不好 讓我們開會請議事人員來幫忙一下維持會長秩序"},{"start":2250.677,"end":2255.018,"text":"後面有幾個帥哥你們拿你們的相機是不是能夠往後推一下謝謝我們介紹在場委員與會的政府長官首先李坤祥委員吳秉瑞委員賴慧媛委員鍾嘉斌委員黃珊珊委員"},{"start":2280.939,"end":2302.81,"text":"林伯虎委員 楊世堅委員 郭國偉委員 徐巧興委員政府的官員這部分 我們今天因為力氣的官員比較多 我們就介紹部委首長主計總署陳主計長 財政部莊部長"},{"start":2307.819,"end":2335.049,"text":"其他各單位的主管就請各位自行參與內政部的吳次長法務部的洪司長立法院預算中心的陳主任立法院法治局第四組的助理研究員楊研究員台北市政府的李華副市長"},{"start":2337.685,"end":2359.366,"text":"新北市政府副市長 劉鶴蘭副市長桃聯市政府溫立署長以及是台中市政府的鄭副市長台南市政府的葉副市長新竹縣政府主席處黃處長"},{"start":2364.369,"end":2389.684,"text":"牟利縣政府邱副縣長彰化縣政府的周副縣長南北縣主計署的陳副處長雲林縣政府的曾秘書長嘉義縣政府的呂副處長屏東縣政府的郭副處長財稅局的莊副局長"},{"start":2394.81,"end":2418.906,"text":"宜蘭縣的吳秘書長花蓮縣的曾副處長以及台東縣政府的岳副處長金門縣佐科長 佐紀處佐科長連江縣秘書張秘書新一農市政府財政處的謝處長新竹市的張秘書長"},{"start":2425.526,"end":2432.578,"text":"嘉義市政府的阮處長高雄市財政局的陳局長好現在呢"},{"start":2442.174,"end":2459.721,"text":"經理審安排第一個審查審查本院台灣民眾黨米據立即將一般性補助款逐額撥付給地方政府的提案如復建這個很長我就不念了第二個邀請行政院主計總書陳主計長淑芝"},{"start":2463.983,"end":2487.912,"text":"財政部中央部長翠雲 內政部劉部長施芳及法務部就10年中央政府依財政修飾法文法地方制度法等地方政府補助進行及對均衡地方經濟發展的成效進行專題報告現在好來請 請程旭萬就登記吧要登記要登記要程旭萬登記來"},{"start":2523.459,"end":2525.141,"text":"主席各位同仁今天這個會議違法違憲一開始"},{"start":2541.82,"end":2567.686,"text":"就是預算已經審查通過本院已經刪除了900多億的預算裡面304億是明擺的指出要在哪裡刪除另外636億美其名叫做統三啦新發明的名詞說叫行政院自喜調整那行政院也已經依法調整了調整完了之後"},{"start":2569.069,"end":2593.494,"text":"現在本院有一些黨團就已經經過總統公告之後的預算在拿會來說現在馬上要播這根本就違反了憲法權力分立的原則有一個莫名其妙的會議他有一句俗稱的事情都已經到了末端了之後你還要回到源頭"},{"start":2595.015,"end":2608.799,"text":"這樣子的會議 主席今天召開這樣的會議我們非常的不能了解那請問今天這個會議 關於那個討論事項要如何進行呢所以我建議今天這個會議不要開啦 違法違憲的會議嘛預算要求行政院統申636億是誰要求的"},{"start":2619.136,"end":2636.064,"text":"是藍白多數的立法院黨團要求的預算已經升了升了是很爽快對外面講說你看我們比賽誰升多少結果現在要求行政院自行調整636億行政院依照這個決議調整了也經過公告了你現在講說你們這個調整不行"},{"start":2643.39,"end":2671.591,"text":"那是這樣子 中了芭蕉又怨芭蕉啊國民黨跟民眾黨刪了預算之後現在擔心各界反彈地方的責任因為面對大罷免所以又趕快拿出這個方法想要掩飾今天開這個會議純粹就是為了要掩飾你們亂搞的結果嘛所以 這種違法人性的會議我是讓他不能夠再繼續開下去好了 這兩分鐘到了"},{"start":2675.369,"end":2697.416,"text":"請繼續講我再跟你問個這個問題我現在回答你回答我們對話這個是院會交下來的案子院會表決後他的決議舉手表決說這個案子交互財政委員會審查這是院會交下來的案子前面那些話"},{"start":2698.636,"end":2714.145,"text":"我都尊重你啦但是願位交下來會議起到了我就有權利所以你就是利用藍白多數的立法用浩港維新的事情嘛你們自己刪了預算現在在利用這種方法想要來掩飾因為你們無法面對大罵臉所以想要掩飾你們刪除了責任這個扯淡人喔因為畢竟有人擁有言論為是主計主注"},{"start":2727.253,"end":2746.709,"text":"租金行政院違法刪除地方政府的一份補助款是違法刪除 它並沒有公告 總統沒有公告這個636億的刪除地方補助款總統沒有公告這個預算已經公告預算過 有人沒636億 叫人家自行調整自行調整 那人家自行調整不行嗎"},{"start":2748.43,"end":2766.884,"text":"我不是管你不要擔心大爆點在那邊想要掩飾什麼亂打大爆點沒有關係啦這個就是事後想要那邊好好留神道 尊重道義氣好啦 謝謝 尊重道義氣我們下一位請這個吳平下一位請 宗教評委員 請 抱怨 請就繼續講吧"},{"start":2781.297,"end":2792.305,"text":"陳旭發也沒有什麼截止登記的後面的人要講登記啊你今天排這個案子就是要來吵架的啊"},{"start":2793.374,"end":2818.605,"text":"沒有人跟你吵架 誰跟你吵架啊你如果拍一個違法違憲的案子 怎麼弄這個是立法院交辦給我的 什麼叫吵架呢立法院拿百多數就可以違法違憲嗎啊 運匯交辦來給我運匯交辦來 百多數就可以違憲嗎不是 運匯交下來給我 我就拍你找我呢 你怎麼找我呢你要找院長啊 院長交辦下來的啊那這是違憲的事情啊"},{"start":2823.169,"end":2826.592,"text":"主席 程序之前先一個權益問題 先停一下因為我們現在拿到的出席人員名單我覺得對於今天來列席的包括地方邀請到的政府官員這樣不太禮貌因為剛剛主席在介紹的時候很難得他們能來"},{"start":2849.127,"end":2869.577,"text":"那沒有名字沒有列在我們的這個列席名單當中是不是可以議事人員補一下因為我們立法院根據憲法的規定邀請政府人員到這裡應我們討論事情要詢問你是指其他單位嗎對啊就沒有啊我都念了"},{"start":2870.177,"end":2889.964,"text":"有唸了但是我們手上沒有名單我剛剛聽了來不及知道有哪些地方政府的人員來我可以補一個完整的啦這樣對人家邀請來的地方政府人員比較禮貌啊好不好 可以啦 這權益問題因為我剛剛對了一下 譬如說新北市的政府上面沒有列明啊好不好 那麼請醫事人員補一下"},{"start":2896.537,"end":2913.589,"text":"針對今天的議事日程我們有報告事項是要請財政部主計總署內政部來就近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法地方制度法等地方政府之補助情形對均衡地方經濟發展的成效的專題報告"},{"start":2914.777,"end":2941.94,"text":"並被質詢本席對於這樣的議程安排竟表同意因為呢我們很關心新版的裁判法明年之後會對於中央地方造什麼樣衝擊所以願意來聽聽相關政府官員的說明那麼地方政府的官員如果被邀請來委員詢問的時候呢我們也歡迎您來表示意見但是今天的討論事項成如剛剛我們吳平樂委員所說的其實這個討論事項呢根本就是違法違憲"},{"start":2943.666,"end":2968.206,"text":"這個討論事項我們來看一下當時我們明明白白的看到這一個提案藍白立委的提案在朝野先生提出來而且也多數做成決議了他說如總三減數未達939億7500萬元定於補足就是要行政院自己想辦法三到足夠939億"},{"start":2970.529,"end":2975.48,"text":"行政院也按照立法院的決議做了我們一是不在意"},{"start":2976.601,"end":3002.905,"text":"如果可以復議 也投付復議解決復議也搞啦 行政院也提復議了告訴立法院的決議呢 行政院做不到立法院還是堅持維持原決議那立法院都做完了 那我們有什麼立場今天立法院還要說要求行政院再進行調整我們預算法第11條 政府預算每一塊金額都辦理一次預算法第25條 不得於預算所定之外動用公款"},{"start":3003.525,"end":3019.218,"text":"預算法第52條立法院就預算所為之附帶決議應由各該機關單位參照法令辦理現在行政院參照法令辦理而且當時這個草原上的決議呢它是決議喔總預算決議喔所以我說今天啊我們今天這個會議呢"},{"start":3020.919,"end":3048.596,"text":"三減中央政府總預算致使中央跟地方施政失靈的是藍白的立委那今天又藍白多數在院會做成決議做成一個決議要求財委會來處理財委會沒有立場處理所以我是建請我們主席今天我們的程序問題第一報告事項我覺得我們可以來聽聽到底這十年來中央跟地方在財政上我們怎麼樣來因應"},{"start":3050.077,"end":3075.556,"text":"但是討論事項接受本院院會的交付決議來進行處理這個與法無懼敬請主席這個議程討論事項不宜進行不然的話我們會希望按照議事規則來就今天的議事程序進行處理 以上好 謝謝第二位的中交批委員的執行發言第三位李坤城委員執行發言請"},{"start":3085.636,"end":3109.716,"text":"謝謝主席今天的議程分兩個一個是專案報告財政部主席出來做的專案報告第二個是討論事項那我們認為說這個討論事項是違法跟違憲為什麼因為我們在今年的1月21號立法院已經通過啦已經通過總預算啦通過總預算也被刪掉了也被在野黨刪掉了2076億"},{"start":3112.418,"end":3125.869,"text":"其中還要求行政院要自行刪除940億這都是立法院的決議耶那其實行政院已經跟立法院講了啊那統刪940億 其中636億你要跟我講刪哪裡啊"},{"start":3130.523,"end":3152.269,"text":"立法院講不出來要刪哪裡啊 立法院講不出來要刪哪裡 那行政院沒有辦法啦那行政院好 那我們就說好 那要有136億那我們就來一般性的補助款來做處理一切都是按照立法院的決議啊 一切都按照立法院的決議結果立法院說不行 你這違法沒有啊 今天開了這個會議 才是違法或違憲啊"},{"start":3155.529,"end":3182.545,"text":"其實行政院已經有想出解方了但是立法院就沒有遵守嘛第一個已經有提出復議了這個行政院呢是在這個三月初的時候二月二十七號的時候提出復議但是我們自己立法院呢在三月十二號的時候這個復議呢遭到否決這是第一個如果那時候提出復議立法院在野黨也覺得說哎呀 三年預算升得太多了636億也不知道在哪裡"},{"start":3184.963,"end":3205.785,"text":"如果在那時候 副議員如果讓他通過的話 今天又不會有這場會議了那第二個呢 就是說我們民進黨團在5月15號然後行政院在5月21號 已經提出釋憲了那我們就看釋憲的結果是怎麼樣 再來討論說接下來要怎麼處理嘛所以有兩個機會啦 一個是提副議 一個是提釋憲"},{"start":3207.927,"end":3220.598,"text":"那何不等待說事情的結果出來之後再來做處理咧只不過現在就要做處理而且現在所有行政院都是按照立法院的決議啊有因有果啊 不要倒果為因啊"},{"start":3229.967,"end":3249.743,"text":"這個我再強調一遍這個是立法院的院會交辦下來的一個案子交辦下來的案子我是依據立法院的院會的結果他交辦他的結果就是交給財政委員會審查然後"},{"start":3250.644,"end":3251.924,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我想喔"},{"start":3277.158,"end":3300.751,"text":"這個我們都知道很多地方的縣市今天首長院都在忙副首長來甚至於裡面這個直接跟財政相關的各處長各局長都來共襄盛舉因為我們都知道地方這個財政不足需要仰賴中央的補助那以我們過去的慣例"},{"start":3302.132,"end":3322.545,"text":"幾乎啦只要統三就是要行政院自行調整那主計長過去從來沒有像你這個樣子自行調整他是把一般補助款是排除結果你現在把他一般補助款把他列在裡面"},{"start":3324.091,"end":3352.754,"text":"過去都是讓你自行來彈性調整這個是讓你們方便結果你方便你把這個可以方便的部分拿來做文章我認為喔過去從來沒有主計長像你這個樣子講實在話我在財委會也相當久我跟羅明財是最資深的從來沒有像你這個樣子因為喔這是過去的慣例啊讓你方便你現在變成把方便拿來做操作"},{"start":3354.27,"end":3379.658,"text":"這是非常要不得啊那不然以後我們刪減的話每項都把你刪對不對讓你方便你自己感覺不希望方便從來沒有像你這個樣子所以說你要是未來想說我們竹筆把你做處理那可以啊沒有問題啊對不對從來沒有像你這樣的主計長"},{"start":3381.391,"end":3403.102,"text":"對不對 那你很多地方像他們的教育啦地方的教育 社會福利啦 一些基本設施你就故意拿這個來砍我認為這樣好嗎對不對 全國人民都在看欸過去從來沒有發生這樣的問題只有你來 才這個問題一直在發生真的 你自己齁 好好的檢討"},{"start":3406.111,"end":3433.505,"text":"謝謝 等一下喔關於談到違法的問題 我要講一下剛才執政黨的委員一直在講到說已經涉到 還沒涉到因為砍地方政府的一般補助款就是違法因為總預算已經通過了總預算通過的時候一般補助款一毛錢都沒有砍"},{"start":3434.605,"end":3449.65,"text":"一毛錢都沒有砍 總預算的時候一般補助款一毛錢都沒有砍第二個 財劃法到現在為止也已經總統府公佈了財劃法30條第三項也講得很清楚補助款不能夠比去年少"},{"start":3450.97,"end":3459.312,"text":"雙重違法這很清楚看得到所以是有討論的空間不是沒有那我是本質大家說參會會我們一向的氣溫都非常的和諧大家來這裡我不是來吵架的因為今天院會沒有交給我這個案子我不會拍這個案子因為交下來這個案子我拍這個案子所以既然各位這麼有爭議的話我們休息五分鐘好不好討論 輪到我發言了休息嗎"},{"start":3480.6,"end":3481.661,"text":"休息吧 休息 再來 再來"},{"start":3509.241,"end":3531.482,"text":"好 繼續講 這兩分鐘 阿寶來 請主席不要 你叫我兩聲道啦去年的預算編列的時候 你現在講的這個法律都還沒有通過所以去年的預算不是用今年通過的這個法律而且這個法律有違憲的嫌疑 現在還在申請釋憲當中所以你叫我兩聲道 今天他剛才林德福說"},{"start":3532.603,"end":3539.106,"text":"剛剛這個組織長說的這個事情以前的組織長都說不會就是因為以前的多數黨沒有在這個地方違法違憲嘛今天就是藍白立委在立法院多數違法違憲才會遇到這個問題嘛董事長我們都在財政委員會這麼久啦你說喔 預算你要一個一個刪除我告訴你 現在你如果報36億要統刪的部分你要刪哪裡嘛 你講啊"},{"start":3560.216,"end":3568.362,"text":"立法院沒有能力去刪除金券的預算丟一個決議說900多億反正你給我刪到夠是你自己不負責任我跟你講今天台灣政治的僵局非要用大罷免大成功才能夠解決啦因為你南北利用你立法院的多數要欺壓行政權要篡奪要破壞中華民國的憲法"},{"start":3590.296,"end":3596.62,"text":"這種的喔 追證有夠罵的啦要來做聯邦議員以前有一個先去了解 先去討論啦對憲法的制度都不了解然後來立法院亂搞利用多數決議侵害行政權 殺害整個昭和民國憲法這是什麼樣子的狀況所以 你去登記啊"},{"start":3616.394,"end":3632.445,"text":"主席 我在這邊提出喔 今天這個黑暗法案先不開也罷 三位動議 請你立刻處理我剛才宣布休息 你要叫我來休息還休息還沒開始玩 三位動議啊三位動議啊 先來處理啊三位動議啊 三位動議就要先啦三位動議就要先啦"},{"start":3644.437,"end":3648.681,"text":"法定人數不可以刪減啊你們自己不懂法定人數可以刪減嗎"},{"start":3652.69,"end":3670.502,"text":"我們的預算通過 法定預算是不能刪減的耶檢疫裡面寫說法定預算那些刪的都是你們亂刪的啦我們真的沒有給地方政府的補助啦民眾政府你們亂刪的啦國民黨刪了預算 國民黨刪了預算法定預算是不能刪減的是法定預算不然請找國民黨我們日本人不算賬 請找國民黨"},{"start":3686.613,"end":3691.717,"text":"國民黨 國民黨 國民黨砍了兩千零七十六億六百三十六億 都是 都是國民黨生的原有的政府組 去找國民黨算賬"},{"start":3701.303,"end":3718.809,"text":"民進黨 居然找國民黨算帳 也找民眾黨算帳民進黨 這麼怕他們違法任期的事實被刪走嗎你們沒有種預算了 預算在1月21號就被你們在野黨刪掉了一切現在的行政就是毀掉立法院的決議來做鼓勵我會議請問"},{"start":3726.973,"end":3750.411,"text":"你們民進黨那麼怕面對你們委員法亂記的事實上今天你看各個縣市都派了代表來了今天重臥嘛 請勿那個聲音嘛現在是什麼程序現在是我們財政委員會在發言啊現在是我們財政委員會在發言啊現在是我們財政委員會在發言啊"},{"start":3754.474,"end":3760.056,"text":"我們沒有要求砍地方政府的預算喔地方政府預算是法定預算依法不得檢驗喔請遵守法律喔"},{"start":3772.952,"end":3792.378,"text":"主計單位行政院不遵守法律那是法定預算是不能刪減的喔法定預算現在是休息時間嘛你們要講我們就來講啊你們說別人違法違憲裡面我們通過預算明明就規定我們刪除的就是沒有地方證補助的部分我們裡面就是沒有砍地方證的部分我們砍的就是各所破壞我們只有各位認被的部分"},{"start":3800.561,"end":3805.108,"text":"這個才是違法的你們面對民眾為甚麼不開會面對民眾那如果大家意見不一樣就是開會討論啊"},{"start":3817.265,"end":3831.728,"text":"大家意見不一樣就開會討論啊大家意見不一樣就看他的選票是不分區的啊哪有全國不分區啊全國不分區啊這樣你看不起不分區立委喔宗家編你看不起不分區喔民主你讓大家講話你們散什麼會你看不起不分區立委宗家編你看不起不分區立委喔"},{"start":3846.826,"end":3866.871,"text":"中加兵看不起不分區的立法委員喔中加兵看不看大家意見不一樣 那大家就討論啊在這邊公開的理性辯論啊你又要站起來 你又不要摔麥克風喔不要再摔麥克風喔 那個要賠喔你上次有沒有賠 上次有沒有賠吳秉銳你麥克風上次賠了沒有吳秉銳 上次你麥克風賠了沒有要不要再摔一次麥克風吳氏又沒有在這裡 將來給你弄一下"},{"start":3874.875,"end":3895.613,"text":"你那個麥克風不要再摔了 我很害怕民進黨砍了各個縣市政府 特別是跟人民有關的社福預算砍了教育預算砍了基礎建設的這個預算 對不起人民今天還要讓話不能開今天各個縣市政府的代表都來了他們怎麼辦啊"},{"start":3900.575,"end":3925.454,"text":"立法院是一個鎖法的地方民進黨違法亂紀我們在審預算的時候清清楚楚講中央級所屬機關結果他們竟然去砍地方裁判法說不能夠比去年來少行政院違法亂紀還不在這開會對不起縣市政府對不起人民民進黨對不起人民全國不分歧啊"},{"start":3927.576,"end":3931.246,"text":"妳看不起部分區的立委啊部分區在哪裡?這裡的部分區都有開會啦"},{"start":3933.816,"end":3941.523,"text":"吳征的臉書 明明白白在七年...吳征的臉書在一月...我來講一下吳征的臉書 一月二十一號有寫喔 總會算三點裡頭他把地方政府沒有刪掉也列在他的臉書裡頭民進黨的臉書"},{"start":3958.339,"end":3978.292,"text":"吳徵寫的喔 你們在1月21號預算通過的時候1月21號 對 我們1月20通過嘛1月21號的臉書 地方性補助款是沒有刪除的喔民進黨的臉書 大家回去看一下他說藍白刪除的是這個橘色的藍白刪除的就是沒有地方性補助的 這是民進黨的臉書啊"},{"start":3980.593,"end":4006.319,"text":"整體越變越嚴 今天為什麼要上會你們不敢討論是不是來開一下你們自己的臉書你們黨的臉書啊對不對我們沒有刪除地方政府的預算是今天行政單位違法的去執行的這件事情如果你們意見跟我們不一樣如果你們意見跟我們不一樣的話那我們大家就來辯論啊來一場辯論啊 幹嘛要上會是害怕是不是"},{"start":4008.821,"end":4033.022,"text":"這是民進黨 也是行政院講的為了要遵守憲法不能讓違憲的後裔開下去不能殺 不能砍我們要守護憲法 守護憲法要遵守法律吧 遵守法律吧你要不要算一下麥克風你上次賠了沒有你上次麥克風賠了沒有你上次你上次麥克風賠了沒有你打人賠了沒有"},{"start":4038.625,"end":4040.615,"text":"沒了沒了你死外公你沒了沒了"},{"start":4043.496,"end":4053.263,"text":"民進黨砍長輩砍幼兒的社福的這個預算砍大家教育預算低收入的這個預算砍地方的基礎"},{"start":4074.837,"end":4091.413,"text":"你對得起誰啊?你的核能生產的那個工程要你對得起誰啊?屏東人都還要找你算帳?你懂什麼瓜哥啦?如果大家意見都不一致就來辯論啦來開會來討論啦,可以賠償的嘛這產業可以發展啊,人民的電價不要漲啊,很好啊"},{"start":4108.636,"end":4117.101,"text":"你們就不敢辯論喔!不敢辯論喔!只敢講這些話而已!你們除了喜歡選舉,喜歡大選,你考到一執政啊!執政黨!"},{"start":4122.449,"end":4141.317,"text":"所有的地方政府的官員看一下山林門預算的人站在這邊山林門預算的人站在這邊山林門預算的人都在這邊所有刪除預算的人都站在這邊所有的地方政府的官員看一下兩千多萬一十億元都跑出了"},{"start":4147.32,"end":4161.085,"text":"這是民進黨引起的聲音啊還是在民進黨的臉書上面臉書多樣的一般性的補助款是不可以刪除的我們黨任何的政黨都要等候3.1一般性的補助款"},{"start":6395.879,"end":6395.899,"text":"這個其實蠻"},{"start":6417.348,"end":6419.851,"text":"有點陌 有點深啦我們現在就錄啊我們錄啊就剪好"},{"start":6432.305,"end":6454.212,"text":"今天這個會議是違法違憲要立法院預算已經審查不定了而且送到 已經給總統都已經公告過了所以這是確定下來的事情那確定下來的事情就是說因為它除了明文規定的303億多之外304億之外它還有一個決議說必須要總共要3909億那這個"},{"start":6459.674,"end":6469.225,"text":"剩下的939億多所以剩下大概636億他就要求行政院要進行參選就是在藍白立法院多數"},{"start":6732.675,"end":6745.804,"text":"現在一個問題依照憲法規定地方政府的首長來立法院他是備許不是來主動報告我們沒有這個程序真的不適合他改革他說他人叫來不讓人家說他不行"},{"start":6763.544,"end":6792.679,"text":"或是覺得你的領域在質詢你就請他去來詢答就好啊備詢你可以等你的立委發言的時候請他上來回答嘛給他備詢可以所以我舉個例子假設你們的委員你們的李燕秀等一下他發言的時候他要請林立法上台這OK我們同意這備詢但是不是他主動沒有人"},{"start":6793.98,"end":6805.789,"text":"對 沒有人問的時候他自己跑上來不是這樣子這是第一個第二個如果是這樣的話你們的人來多把這個因為已經提出了這個"},{"start":6807.143,"end":6828.655,"text":"戰略同意不可能撤回,你把它表決掉我們也沒有意見好好,我現在意思說,要告訴各位,我們要照憲法的規定你們備詢的時候,你們可以安排你們的立委請你們要問的首長上來問啊我們要問誰,是我們的事情嘛所以不是主動報告,是備詢上來發言"},{"start":6843.567,"end":6859.85,"text":"我們發言的時候,我們要問哪個地方首長,那是我們的權利那你們的委員要問誰也是你們的權利那你問的時候,他當然可以上來備詢,但他不是主動來報告因為如果可以這樣的話,不是,市長我跟你講,這次為什麼要守住呢?"},{"start":6860.802,"end":6882.058,"text":"如果這樣假設這個開了這個例我以後當召委的時候我要求你新竹縣政府所有的官員都來然後你一個一個來給我報告這整個政府的體制都亂掉了OK 好不好有來一個用質詢的方式他喜歡叫誰上來誰上來我沒意見嘛你如果說"},{"start":6889.955,"end":6909.532,"text":"我們會叫他們不要拔掉啦,稍微動議會被表決掉表決掉之後,他要進入這個程序,他們有同意列席的地方政府的首長是被尋,不是上來報告但是他們要被尋誰,我們沒有意見他本來是他的權利,我們滿好的同意"},{"start":6929.795,"end":6938.267,"text":"我是這樣子建議你啦你聽聽看啦因為依照憲法67條你非我們中央政府的行政手段來使用"},{"start":6941.19,"end":6956.441,"text":"可以列席備詢可以列席備詢所以等一下應該是你們國民黨的委員或是我們委員會的委員要質詢的時候他要邀請自己上台都可以這是權利我們不會阻擋但是不是主動請他報告主動請他報告會亂掉"},{"start":6961.444,"end":6964.225,"text":"所以這OK啦 這樣子我們就照程序來我OK"},{"start":6985.146,"end":7010.983,"text":"對啊 就是你們質詢的時候你請他上來講我沒有意見啊你本來就十分鐘你都可以講啊就是這樣委員就是今天能夠上台報告的就是還是這些人而已但是十八個 二十三個縣市的話只能在詢答的時候比方像上一次羅委員他直接點哪一個縣市的財政委員來但是不可以直接讓他們來報告因為今天我們的那個所有的專題"},{"start":7023.169,"end":7035.594,"text":"那程序發言還...欸 那個...欸 那個...那三位...那三位都沒有表決啊三位都沒有表決啊啊 表決都沒有表決啊你還是要照顧你們啊那三位都沒有表決啊"},{"start":7041.286,"end":7044.687,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳的名稱是大廈餐廳。餐廳的名稱是大廈餐廳。"},{"start":7078.942,"end":7079.722,"text":"還沒有 還沒有"},{"start":7110.898,"end":7115.123,"text":"這間餐廳的名稱是大廈大廈餐廳"},{"start":7138.644,"end":7138.864,"text":"好 好好"},{"start":7169.81,"end":7174.012,"text":"回到我們家 因為整個禮物總共有七百塊錢所以它和我們家組織起來 總共有三百塊錢"},{"start":7188.393,"end":7195.997,"text":"所以說,沒什麼時間了他現在是不是不用補救了?因為那個人來了來了,有人來了哪一個先吃的?新北市新北市新北市新北市"},{"start":7215.955,"end":7216.296,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7237.187,"end":7239.328,"text":"你看啊,豆腐在那裡"},{"start":7264.623,"end":7284.417,"text":"好 報告我們繼續開會啦我們按照程序因為有吳秉瑞 郭光文 賴慧妍 李坤城 鍾嘉斌等委員提出三位同意我們現在請問是否同意三位不同意我們舉手表決好不好同意三位的請舉手不同意同意同意同意同意同意同意同意不同意三位的請舉手"},{"start":7295.759,"end":7297.961,"text":"今天我們的進行是這樣子因為按照過去的慣例"},{"start":7319.935,"end":7341.196,"text":"所有的縣市的政府的長官是列席並備詢所以原則上就不請你們先發言先做因為那是我們官員做施政報告但是其他委員如果點到你的話那就麻煩你們就到這個"},{"start":7343.441,"end":7348.123,"text":"這個備訓台來說明好不好我們會議將進行來我們現在請行政院主計總書陳主計長就公決案及專題報告進行報告請"},{"start":7365.302,"end":7382.231,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天應邀貴委員會就近十年中央對地方政府的補助情形和對均衡地方經濟發展的成效進行報告自感榮幸提出檢要報告如下"},{"start":7382.831,"end":7398.293,"text":"一中對於財政協助的原則一地方制度法87條的規定縣市單獨或合併改制為直轄市時其他直轄市他所受統籌分配稅款和補助款的總額不得已少於"},{"start":7399.294,"end":7413.889,"text":"該職強是改制前所以近年來中央對地方的財政協助均保障各縣市獲配的統籌分配稅款項一般性補助款和技術不低於103年桃園市改制基準年水準"},{"start":7414.529,"end":7428.605,"text":"那第二個為創意地方財政的能量近年來中央均確保在自身財政穩健的前提下優於匡列一般性補助款那所以這個各縣市的一個貨配財源都逐年成長"},{"start":7429.366,"end":7453.005,"text":"那第三個是普通統籌分配稅次按固定比例分配直轄市六個直轄市獲得分配61.76但是各16縣市只獲得24%所以為了均衡城鄉的一個差距我們透過一般性補助款來依助縣市那成長率能夠高於直轄市所以以拉近直轄市和縣市之間的一個差距"},{"start":7453.585,"end":7465.349,"text":"那第二個是中央對財政協助的一個情形那以113年度決算為例中央對統籌分配稅案一般性補助款總共6804億元比103年的決算數增加2561億元或60.4顯示中央也非常重視"},{"start":7475.214,"end":7489.37,"text":"那個和地方間的夥伴關係並透過一個裁員來盡力協助地方政府那相關的一個協助的情形請看下列的一個表格所以各縣市的情況近年來都已經有"},{"start":7490.31,"end":7501.875,"text":"選住的改善整體縣市的一個決算101年稅入稅出的短處是629億到了104年是剩餘64然後113年剩餘708那像台北市他就剩餘269億台南市剩餘72高雄市剩餘59億南投縣剩餘41億台中市剩餘38億新竹市剩餘33億等"},{"start":7516.081,"end":7542.759,"text":"那所以稅入稅出有短處的部分呢到113年度降為一個整體的一個縣市的自有財源比率由101的61.6成長到成長到67.8成長6個百分點那所以這個部分呢近年來中央透過統籌分配稅和一般性補助款抑制地方讓地方的一個貨幣財源能夠大幅增加"},{"start":7543.459,"end":7569.801,"text":"那現在因為財劃法的一個修正讓地方的一個財源大幅增加但是並沒有把相關的一個地方的應該辦理的事項來做移轉所以這個部分呢我們經財政部試算城鄉的差距有擴大所以我們在5月20日已經申請釋憲那中方對我們對地方的一個補助機制我們也會配合調整"},{"start":7570.501,"end":7584.076,"text":"那再來就是針對就是說請我們第二點就是我們通案就是說中央政府通案刪減一般性補助款要立即要足以撥付給地方政府然後要做調整這個案"},{"start":7585.598,"end":7603.274,"text":"那這個主要因為是因為大院他刪減總預算將近2076億元那通案刪減的部分以940億元扣除以核實計算的通案通刪數是304那行政院還必須自行刪減636"},{"start":7605.155,"end":7628.188,"text":"那必須自行刪減這個金額龐大我們自愛難行所以造成政策成敗無法歸屬責任政治難以建立違反權利分立和制衡原則預算法第49條的一個規定所以我們在2月27移情大院來赴議但是大院仍維持原結運所以我們在"},{"start":7629.068,"end":7638.635,"text":"行政院在5月21提請釋憲但是我們還是必須要公布刪減的數額所以因為中央已經大幅刪減1439億也針對特定的項目巨幅刪減"},{"start":7644.58,"end":7652.006,"text":"如大陸地區刪減80%國外旅會和出國教育訓練機會刪減60%媒體政策宣導會刪減60%特別會刪減60%幾乎部分機關甚至全部刪除所以衝擊業務甚至行政院"},{"start":7663.856,"end":7683.551,"text":"將這些的移情大院來赴議但是在3月12還是維持原決議中央已窮盡救濟的程序未免對國防、安全、外交和教育政策等造成嚴重影響所以我們只能免於調減一般性補助款所以這個部分呢"},{"start":7683.971,"end":7700.382,"text":"依照財務法30條案地方制度法的規定中央對於財力交叉的地方卓予補助而且行政院在113年8月30合定的縣市一般補助款時以續名上開的補助款如經大院審議有所刪減我們將依其審議結果配合調整"},{"start":7703.724,"end":7722.351,"text":"所以114年一般性補助款條件630億元尚無違反相關的法令規定那目前各界已經對110年一般性補助款三節的提出解決方案我們後續將聽取各方的意見來研議相關的一個方案以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝這個主計長的一個報告"},{"start":7732.479,"end":7749.253,"text":"報告委員會我們10點40分截止登記現在請財政部的總部長請盡量盡量"},{"start":7760.134,"end":7778.945,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好接下來由本部緊究今天的專題來進行涉及本部業務的部分做簡要的說明由於我國各地自然環境和工商發展條件不一稅源分布也不均的情形非常顯著為了調劑地方財政的營需促進地方經濟的均衡發展本部歷年都根據財化法的規定提撥所得稅 營業稅 貨物稅以及縣市土增稅收入的一定比例納入"},{"start":7790.391,"end":7815.376,"text":"統籌稅款按照一定的公式分配給直轄市縣市以及鄉鎮市並且在會計年度開始的四個月前通知各地方政府納入預算那中央統籌稅款是根據是屬於地方政府的稅客收入應該按照實際的收入數來撥付如果實際的收入數超過通知的分配數那麼我們會在預算整理期間結束以後也就"},{"start":7815.936,"end":7834.924,"text":"第二年的1月15日那辦理第三次的稅款的一個分配撥付但如果實際收入數比通知分配數如果短少的話那我們會辦理短撥並且會提前通知地方政府預為因應今年由於受到美國關稅政策的影響近期出口大增"},{"start":7835.464,"end":7859.085,"text":"以至於營業稅的退稅金額比去年同期來的增加再加上所得稅延後申報以及繳納使整體的一個稅款收入的入庫時程不如預期所以就按稅收的實際入庫的情形調整當月的撥付金額並且也事先通知地方政府預為因應那麼在7月以後就可以按照月平均數來撥付"},{"start":7860.326,"end":7863.671,"text":"並且依序撥補之前個月份實際撥付金額未達月平均撥付數的差額"},{"start":7867.967,"end":7893.943,"text":"近十個年度普通統籌稅款的波幅情形來看的話一百零四年度普通統籌稅款的實際收入數是新台幣兩千三百二十億元逐年成長到一百一十三年度四千一百三十一億元增幅增加達到百分之七十八點一那麼期間除了一百零九年度受到疫情影響稅客收入的時增數低於預算數而是統籌稅款的短波以外"},{"start":7894.403,"end":7910.617,"text":"其他年度的實際收入數的超過預算通知分配數的累計達到2727億元都已經依法全數撥付給地方政府此外本部的國庫署歷年都按照營業稅法的規定在金融業的營業稅稅款撥入金融業特別準備金的期間"},{"start":7915.701,"end":7943.184,"text":"編列專案補助補足地方政府因為統籌稅款所減少的收入近10年度也合計達到1089億對於彌補地方政府統籌稅款收入都有所注意綜合上述近10年度普通統籌稅款加計金融業營業稅統籌稅款短少的專案補助累計撥付地方政府高達3兆1001億元對於地方政府的裁員挹注非常顯著而各該地方政府"},{"start":7943.544,"end":7970.282,"text":"能妥善規劃運用對於各項的業務推動以及地方經濟的發展都有所助益以上說明敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝財政部的總部長的報告那麼其他各部外的報告請各位自行參閱我們現在就開始對不起喔這個剛剛漏掉一個很重要的今天請那個民眾黨的代表黃珍珍委員做體驗說明請"},{"start":7980.14,"end":7999.235,"text":"主席還有各位貴賓我想今天非常重要的是台灣民眾黨黨團在這一次行政院主席總署他行文給各縣市政府將中央編列給地方政府的一般性補助款從114年度的5月到12月分配的撥補數全數改為未分配"},{"start":7999.855,"end":8017.465,"text":"这个行为已经严重违反立法院通案删减促进政府资源有效配置的决议精神中央政府预算编列腐烂原编列的是3兆1000亿元立法院通案删减后仍然有高达2兆9000亿元之数"},{"start":8018.385,"end":8036.26,"text":"也是中華民國史上最高的中央政府總預算本院本欲職責審議預算也督促中央政府增進財務的效能減少不當的經濟支出甚至浪費但是中央政府不去檢討如何有效節用分配資源"},{"start":8037,"end":8048.55,"text":"反而意圖抗地方支凱緊縮一般性補助款的相關補助事項把準用直轄市規定的縣市基本的財政收支差短還有定額涉算的"},{"start":8049.485,"end":8068.816,"text":"的教育社會福利還有基本設施等改為未分配數這個行為不但違反原預算刪減提案的意旨更嚴重侵害影響地方財政運作所以台灣民眾黨提出本個提案主要要先還原過去八年特別預算常態化公務預算腐爛編列"},{"start":8069.836,"end":8096.922,"text":"我們的國債已經高達5.9兆元國人平均負債高達26.5萬元所以立法院在財政日益沉重的情況下我們決議通案刪減部分預算以免放任政府支出無限制的擴張並開啟未來年度預算包針的惡例所以這一次我們所刪減的預算在歷年以來立法院每年都會對中央政府總預算進行通案的刪減"},{"start":8097.722,"end":8116.013,"text":"今年並不是特例112年刪減了300億111年通刪了270億幾乎維持在1%左右這是年度固定刪減但是行政院並沒有按照必要性跟優先性的條件去做一些審查而是"},{"start":8117.441,"end":8140.669,"text":"最不負責任最懶惰的方式直接將636億的砍在地方政府的一般補助款上刪付額度高達25%所以今天的提案希望能夠在委員會通過也給中央政府一個重要的提示就是立法院通刪預算是刪除行政院及所屬中央機關並不是地方的一般補助款"},{"start":8141.289,"end":8161.821,"text":"這一次阻擊走錯的做法嚴重違反 嚴重違反立法院重視財政紀律的目的而自行做這樣的處置不但打擊地方自治 更是製造憲政上的惡力謝謝大家好 謝謝黃委員的說明我們現在開始詢問 做一下宣告"},{"start":8162.998,"end":8180.305,"text":"每位出席委員發言時間8分鐘 畢老師延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言4分鐘因為今天登記的委員很多所以我跟各位報告就不給各位再拖時間到我就站起來了就拜託各位配合 來 請"},{"start":8187.176,"end":8204.898,"text":"第一位委員 林德偉 質詢請謝謝 我是不是來邀請就是我們新北市的副市長劉河蘭 劉副市長還有這個到我這裡來另外還有這個台中在他那裡啦台南車北新台"},{"start":8205.379,"end":8211.386,"text":"我意思是說他在這裡他不可以 他不可以這樣可以嗎?他不可以 他不可以這樣喔?"},{"start":8211.386,"end":8222.198,"text":"不可以你執行 你不可以好 來好 那個還有政府市長 來我們台中市那個兩位在這邊在這邊對 對 對你們在你們在不可以你們在不可以"},{"start":8228.51,"end":8234.516,"text":"我本來是想要他們我站在旁邊然後請主計長上來然後你們的問題好"},{"start":8244.293,"end":8250.803,"text":"那開始的時候我就請那個林副市長其實齁 主席長主要就是讓你了解地方的問題你要上來啊請主席長一起來這樣就對了"},{"start":8261.318,"end":8284.817,"text":"我們就請那個劉副市長表達我們現在地方這次三的那個補助館你們的困難所在你們的問題所在來我們總召還有我們德福委員還有立法院財委會的委員跟所有委員以及我們憲政院的所有這個團隊以及媒體朋友大家早安我是新北市副市長劉和然"},{"start":8285.518,"end":8303.783,"text":"那今天是代表我們新北市尤其是我們新北市的弱勢族群來在立法院跟各位委員跟所有媒體朋友跟各位夥伴做個報告我想一般性的補助款對地方來講是非常重要的一筆預算它主要的方向在三個部分以新北市來談第一個是我們的社福"},{"start":8304.423,"end":8326.863,"text":"第二個是教育第三個是一些基礎設施跟建設所以這三塊的預算其實在地方裡面是屬於我們最接近第一線的民眾的感受所以這三筆預算我們合成起來在這次的一般性補助款三除的30.44億裡面我們的社福預算包括一些弱勢族群包括身心障礙朋友的一些津貼就高達16.1億"},{"start":8329.145,"end":8344.085,"text":"在我們的教育預算裡面包括一些校舍的這個設施的補助或是我們孩子的營養午餐一些相關弱勢孩子的一些照顧就高達7.6億另外一個部分就是我們的第一線的一些設施道路的養護農路等"},{"start":8344.986,"end":8364.776,"text":"我們包括高灘地相關的一些設施設備的處理上就高達6.7億這30.4億其實對我們一個縣市政府來講是非常重要的而且它主要的關係人就是我們的身心障礙的朋友我們弱勢的族群我們的孩子所以在這三個面向裡面這一次的一般性補助款這樣的刪除"},{"start":8366.722,"end":8381.642,"text":"剛剛有媒體在問說是不是違法這個就尊重立法院跟院裡面來做協調可是以地方市政府的角色來看其實這是一種非常惡意的刪除我為什麼用這樣的字眼叫惡意其實都是行政部門我們都是行家"},{"start":8382.583,"end":8409.628,"text":"我們都在議會待過我自己也當了局長我很清楚統三的意義是什麼統三就是在這個議會或是所謂的立法院的刪除以後讓行政部門依照自己的施政優先數據來做一些輕重緩急的調整所以這筆統三理論上是應該把相對衝擊小影響少的來做刪除所以剛剛我在院裡面這個"},{"start":8412.02,"end":8426.861,"text":"裡面我聽到這筆預算是636億是由行政院自行調整如果這筆錢是在地方縣市政府絕對不會把這筆錢刪在我們的弱勢族群我們的孩子 我們相關的預算我相信這個大概是"},{"start":8427.742,"end":8442.413,"text":"所有的民意代表也好從政者也好需要把人民放在心上把民眾放在心上非常重要的一塊所以我從來沒有聽過統三竟然是把一般性補助款的636億全部刪在一般性補助款"},{"start":8443.254,"end":8467.292,"text":"其他的部門完全不用調整這是非常不可思議的做法我們在自己的市府裡面如果議會給我們統三我們這樣子是刪除我們沒辦法面對我們的市民朋友所以還是拜託我們立法院拜託我們所有的委員所有的好朋友我們沒有要選擇來抗議什麼我們也可以辦很多的說明跟民眾講說是怎麼刪除因為我們也懂大家都是行家說行話"},{"start":8468.733,"end":8486.552,"text":"統三的精神是什麼其實大家都很清楚所以在這邊或許講得比較直接一點可是因為衝擊到的就是我們身心障礙的好朋友我們的弱勢族群 我們的中低收入戶我們的學童 我們的孩子所以我要很直接的表達既然是行政院自行調整"},{"start":8487.433,"end":8510.227,"text":"為什麼不能調整在其他不一樣的優先順序輕重環節的項目所以這是我們新北市特別在這邊跟總召跟我們所有委員跟所有的媒體拜託這是第一線民眾非常需要的經費請趕快調整回來讓我們好好的照顧我們的市民朋友照顧我們的國人以上是新北市政府的意見"},{"start":8511.027,"end":8514.85,"text":"好 謝謝劉副市長來 接下來我們請鄭副市長表達以後我再來請那個竹記長來講話來好 謝謝 謝謝我們林樂福委員謝謝我們趙吉仁也謝謝我們立法院各位同仁 行政院各位同仁就像剛剛這個劉輝然副市長所提到的"},{"start":8533.362,"end":8554.1,"text":"一般性補助款所涉及的內容是人民最需要的內容是市民最需要的內容就是設服教育跟基礎建設我們常常聽到一句話再怎麼窮不能窮教育再怎麼苦不能苦孩子可是行政院這樣的統三就是告訴我說再怎麼不窮"},{"start":8554.961,"end":8569.037,"text":"也要窮教育再怎麼不苦也要苦孩子怎麼會把這兩個這樣子最重要的會涉及到一般性補助一般小朋友或者說中低收入戶或者是高齡者他最需要的補助這個項目來進行刪減那剛剛這個劉慧蘭副市長講的很清楚"},{"start":8574.242,"end":8592.347,"text":"那麼立法院呢交給行政院來進行統三其實是對行政院的一種信任信任什麼信任行政院有能力判斷什麼樣的預算的優先順序是應該要來做這個排序的那結果排序的結果是告訴我們說小朋友的"},{"start":8593.327,"end":8620.026,"text":"這個津貼不重要那中低收入戶的津貼不重要那這個老人健保的補助不重要其他的預算比較重要那我們就很好奇什麼樣的預算比孩子的未來比教育的這些津貼更重要台中市政府從2019年開始每年上繳中央代表市民上繳中央的稅收就1400億到今年更是超過2000億交過"},{"start":8622.327,"end":8647.143,"text":"那台中市民撇手之足努力打拼繳上來的稅的結果是我們的青年的父母連自己的小朋友的津貼都頂不到中央都不給老人家要健保的補助也頂不到因為中央也不給我想這不會是我們台中市民跟鄉親或者是所有地方政府想要看到的結果我想今天在場的所有縣市政府"},{"start":8647.943,"end":8674.206,"text":"不分黨派立場基本上都一致不斷手段是什麼中央或給地方的一般性補助款這麼重要的金錢這麼重要的建設是一毛都不應該刪除一毛都不應該刪除更不用講說立法院這邊有討論說是不是有法律的增益跟保障這方面我們尊重立法院但是這筆錢重不重要這筆錢很重要這筆錢就是人民最重要的需要再怎麼刪"},{"start":8675.307,"end":8680.572,"text":"也不應該刪給地方政府的一般性補助這是最重要的預算 謝謝"},{"start":8695.353,"end":8714.802,"text":"你們自行調整有輕重緩急結果你們就刻意的來將社會福利啦將教育啦將這些弱勢來做砍殺講實在話人在做天在看大家心知肚明你們這是刻意的那個主席長你要表達"},{"start":8716.067,"end":8724.175,"text":"是我也跟英國人報告因為大院刪除我們2076億那通案刪減940億那940億裡面指定刪減的部分就304億那我們必須要自行調整636億但是面對這麼大一個額度的一個刪減我們是有困難"},{"start":8735.467,"end":8758.713,"text":"有輕重反擊但是你為什麼一定要把教育 把這些社會無力低落弱勢的來砍殺但是立法院仍然維持決議所以我們現在還是循行政程序在釋憲那釋憲的一個結果在看這個情況講實在話你們提釋憲對立法院是非常非常的不尊重因為預算已經綜藝處理了你們還提釋憲大法官那麼大"},{"start":8763.454,"end":8772.52,"text":"對不對大家心知肚明啦從我到立法院來從來沒有這種狀況啦給你們自行調整結果你不但自行不調整又來故意砍殺這些地方的縣市政府來砍殺這些弱勢這是特別你們故意的我認為人民會自己去判斷啦"},{"start":8787.751,"end":8801.947,"text":"因為立法院已經大幅刪減我們的一個預算1439還大幅刪減這裡面有大陸地區的一個百分之八十拜託 鋪國旅會百分之六十 歷屆這一次預算最多還有一個巡討會也是百分之九十 還大幅刪減所以其他的大部分"},{"start":8802.768,"end":8814.919,"text":"我們已經沒有辦法刪減了 只剩下國防 外交和教育所以這個部分我們反映了就是不得不得的做法那個主計長我從來沒有看過像這樣的主計長啦 講實在話歷任我在立法院第七屆了 我沒有看過這樣的主計長啦讓你調整 讓你方便 你把方便當隨便 而且又這麼刻意"},{"start":8828.832,"end":8836.575,"text":"講實在話今天為什麼那麼多縣市首長來這裡講實在話你自己要深刻檢討啦對不對聽從上議你要有你自己的堅持對不對主席長你一來整個過去從來沒有發生的這次都發生了講實在話你自己要深刻的檢討你再來你還要多久對不對"},{"start":8853.68,"end":8872.81,"text":"講實在話 過去從來沒有 讓你們方便 結果你把方便當隨便然後這樣來惡搞 講實在話 人民真的是看不下去啦因為行政院他一個刪減的部分 他就是那個是法律義務應該要支出的 要給這些地方的剛剛我還特別拿法令給你看 對不對好 謝謝林德鴻委員的執行 現在請吳秉樂委員執行請"},{"start":8887.386,"end":8902.882,"text":"主席麻煩請陳主席長這一次立法院的預算三減總共三多少金額2076億然後這一次這個有指定可以"},{"start":8910.481,"end":8935.186,"text":"指定名目刪除了有多少1439還有一個636億沒有指定要我們自行調整對 已經刪了1400多億然後還有636億要自行調整請問主席 你知不知道雖然名義上是立法院刪的但是主張刪除的表決你有沒有看是不是國民黨跟民眾黨的立委贊成這樣刪除的是不是"},{"start":8937.965,"end":8959.912,"text":"所以預算刪除是藍白兩黨刪除了嘛對不對對方的首長聽清楚啊今天刪這麼多就是藍白的立法委員憑藉立法會的多數收含了眼想要貪汗中央政府所以砍這麼多預算啊沒有這些刪除大家今天不用來坐在這個地方啊"},{"start":8966.109,"end":8992.936,"text":"然後講那個似是而非的說歷年來預算最多哪一個縣市政府不是歷年來預算最多今年哪一個縣市政府不是歷年來預算最多所以用這個邏輯來講是不通的啦因為這是一個話術啊時代進步我們所要做的業務越來越多當然經費要增加然後講的好像我們去少了這個"},{"start":8995.117,"end":9018.967,"text":"對於這一般的這個補助款刪減就是刻意要刪社福刻意要刪教育刻意要刪一些什麼兒童跟老人的福利我跟你說剛剛主席長有報告地方政府過去這幾年財政都有盈餘啊都plus啦當然長年來講負債還沒有還完但是連續幾年都是正數嘛"},{"start":9020.066,"end":9045.828,"text":"那所以今年因為立法院這樣刪減大家共體時間來去做財政的手段做一些舉借如果真的不夠也可以啊也還在舉借的範圍內嘛以我新北市來講少了30億但是總數還是比去年多了60幾億啊今年的總體的補助是不是比去年多了60幾億"},{"start":9048.015,"end":9068.204,"text":"然後來這個地方好像是我們刻意要凌虐你刻意要虧空你的沒有人有這樣的心啊今天如果不是藍白的立法委員沙紅的眼這樣亂刪除預算人家行政院原來編好送到立法院的預算喔是足夠的那誰是始作俑者現在"},{"start":9075.175,"end":9097.093,"text":"亂三預算之後外界在用大罷免在反彈刻意製造這個場景想要來推卸責任想要來挽回民眾對你們的制裁這一種說法不能接受啦主席長我請問你你的636億為什麼要刪一般性的補助款"},{"start":9100.365,"end":9118.37,"text":"是因為我們636億第一個他要叫我們自行調整那這個部分如果自行調整金額龐大是有自愛難行而且造成政策成敗無法歸屬所以我們有複議但是複議的結果又被維持原決議所以我們現在在5月21申請釋憲"},{"start":9120.831,"end":9141.331,"text":"但是我們已窮盡所有的救濟程序然後我們也嘗試去刪減各項譬如說國防、外交還有教育這些大部分都沒有辦法刪減所以我們在不得不的一個情況下才來刪減一般性的一個補助款那目前我們也希望說各界能夠提供給我們一些各方的一個解決的辦法我們聽取各方的一個意見來研擬解決的一個辦法"},{"start":9146.575,"end":9171.386,"text":"剛剛還在這邊有委員講說是給你方便耶636讓你統山叫做給你方便是有困難的自行刪減是有困難的那你覺得如果不自行刪減舉一個例子國民黨的民主黨人就多啊我好指3636還有人要說我要刪更多咧那請他們提出要刪減的金額跟確切的項目你覺得這樣建議好不好"},{"start":9173.673,"end":9196.931,"text":"至少不要在這邊推卸責任說我是給你方便如果說我們自行刪減責任是真的歸屬困難是這樣子那到底是要刪哪裡就是有困難啊所以預算是誰刪除的誰是始作俑者我要再強調一遍不要亂刪預算後面沒有這些困難啦那刪的預算人民要究責"},{"start":9198.772,"end":9217.009,"text":"安排這種場景想要推卸責任叫地方來副市長來這邊搞政治說中央就是要克扣你們是這樣嗎你等一下也可以講啊台中市今年總共補助比去年相比多多少"},{"start":9221.823,"end":9234.525,"text":"多多少 他比去年增加46億今年的補助比去年增加46億是 三減三 靠一句市長說的錢更多不會執政那就換人嘛都用你們邏輯講就好了嘛"},{"start":9237.605,"end":9262.953,"text":"對不對 他不是講說錢更多不會執政就換人為什麼地方政府的財政每一年往前增加中央政府就說人家是最多因為民進黨會執政啊財政做得比以前好啊 稅收多啊所以我當然變用預算來用啊那你地方政府不是這樣嗎你今天財政做過變好就代表你地方政府的執政也有成效啊"},{"start":9264.517,"end":9284.606,"text":"那為什麼不用相同的標準對待中央跟地方我在跟藍白的立委講636億有本事你來講這邊講你要刪哪裡要刪哪一個科目要刪多少錢不要在那邊賴說什麼事給人家請證據方便"},{"start":9286.892,"end":9308.957,"text":"已經刪到沒有辦法再刪了 已經出過頭髮刀了 你還念著讀 念著讀就是這樣啊我在立法院也將近20年了 從來沒有預算刪除2000多億的啦以前了不起就頂多刪一個百分點 一點多個百分點照比例來講 刪照1000億 以前最多就是刪300億今年給你刪2000多億"},{"start":9313.447,"end":9340.656,"text":"那我中央沒有錢我中央的錢被拿走了那我要怎麼辦請台灣全體大家共體時間嘛因為大家都還有財政手段可以用你地方政府跟議會的關係不像在台立法院都在搞政治立法院都在搞政治啊要癱瘓你啊地方議會沒有這樣的狀況地方議會經過議會的同意地方還可以用財政手段"},{"start":9341.636,"end":9361.835,"text":"以前Mainas的時候也舉借嘛那何況連續這麼多年都是class真正有愛心就用財政手段去解決這個問題行政院也是不得已講的好像是我們都是壞人我們是天生沒良心都是故意要怎麼樣沒有這樣的人啦"},{"start":9365.731,"end":9392.953,"text":"喔 大家都是應該要將心比心啦今天不要亂算預算 後面沒有這些問題啊我有嘴說到無辜 說到瘦死啊因為這些人都在扭曲啊就是在扭曲 預算是他們砍的跟不跟輸贏啊砍的預算 然後還要不承擔責任還想要推卸責任你們當初在砍多少預算在比賽的時候 不是很爽嗎"},{"start":9396.547,"end":9411.688,"text":"我跟林大夫回答 二十年來我在立法院沒有見過這樣的在野黨了現在只是因為習勢多 什麼時候要握把配合中華民國憲政 中華民國憲法 權力分立 全部來亂搞一氣"},{"start":9417.025,"end":9445.151,"text":"那再問一個問題,刪減114年的一般性補助款有沒有違法?他們在強調你違法,你有沒有違法?是,因為依照那個補助辦法裡面它規定就是說中央要橫著自己的一個財力來對地方佐予補助那所以這個部分我們在113年8月30在核定各縣市的一個一般性補助款的時候也是述明說如果補助這個部分我們有立法院被刪減的部分我們就會"},{"start":9445.791,"end":9452.724,"text":"做一個相關的一個調整和刪減所以這個部分114年一般性補助調減636億也沒有違反相關的一個法令規定"},{"start":9455.717,"end":9470.547,"text":"另外一點是預算去年編的你剛剛他現在改了這個財政收支法裡面再去規定說以後他們的那個金額一般性補助款不能減那是要向後生效的所以他要用後面修的法來說你前面違法嘛"},{"start":9480.854,"end":9501.883,"text":"他現在邏輯就是這樣你們一講再講台灣現在有些地方不講道理藍郡的媒體多 都講他們的話好像他們講的都對一樣你要加強發言的力道多講一些讓社會大眾知道怎麼一回事 好不好加油 堅持到底大罷免大成功"},{"start":9506.718,"end":9510.6,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請我們召委賴思寶委員質詢謝謝主席有請台北市的林麗華副市長以及我們的主計長台北市林副市長還有我們的主計長謝謝"},{"start":9539.48,"end":9566.805,"text":"首先請教護士長現在砍了地方的補助款到底砍掉哪些東西特別是好 要非常感謝昭偉這有機會讓我們能夠來到財政委員會來表達我們這次行政院突然刪減地方政府一般性補助款對我們的衝擊以及要表達反對之意在這邊要先報告一下我們所影響的部分"},{"start":9567.845,"end":9577.208,"text":"這個是我有做一個表格這有關於我們所有被刪減部分社會福利支出被刪掉27.6%教育被刪掉38.9%基本設施被刪掉27.4%還有補助地方政府統籌運用財源刪掉59.5%那裡面社福大概是大家最關注的就我們都知道這裡面都是跟兒少跟老人跟弱勢"},{"start":9597.053,"end":9624.567,"text":"相關的很多或是婦女相關的預算所以像大家看到的這個由地方政府配置優先辦理項目第一個其他兒少婦女老人及身障福利支出就跟委員報告像包括說我們的老人的收容安置長照的服務還有像我們社會局委託民間單位辦理老人服務的相關方案"},{"start":9625.928,"end":9643.561,"text":"像說老人日照啦老人的服務中心以及我們打唱一下三代的長照是不是對還有我們老人健保的自負額的補助以及重陽記老金還有我們像鼓勵大家生育的我們"},{"start":9644.141,"end":9661.417,"text":"孕婦的好運to you乘車的補助那另外呢還有包括五歲以下兒童育兒津貼兒童托育補助等等還有像包括委託收容及維基家庭兒童的托育補助等等那另外呢"},{"start":9662.057,"end":9679.198,"text":"還有就是有關於也要跟我們報告還有我們有些是屬於硬體的設施那這個硬體的設施事實上都是有關於我們的像包括兒少婦幼受抱者的收容安置長者的關懷據點"},{"start":9680.6,"end":9704.94,"text":"日照中心等等那這就在我們其他社會局主管支出的部分也一樣都會受到相關的衝擊那另外要跟委員報告就是說在基本設施的部分大家都知道台北市這幾年致力於這也是中央要求就是要洗刷人行地獄這樣的一個不好的一個名譽所以我們也花了大量的錢"},{"start":9705.72,"end":9725.172,"text":"希望能夠做人行道的改善工程道路改善跟維護工程那在這次裡面的基本設施也看到了受到相關的衝擊你這裡提到有個北市科啊是對會影響到北市科像北市科的部分舉例來說我們現在大家知道我們單"},{"start":9726.733,"end":9739.181,"text":"目前大家知道像NVIDIA它可能都會進到北市科來對 就是黃雲勳的部分那所以我們相關的一些交通用地這些都是在我們這次的基本設施內因為現在大家也很在"},{"start":9742.704,"end":9762.405,"text":"擔憂未來會不會有內湖科學園區一樣的問題就是交通上的一個影響所以像這些都是我們現在在這次有關一般補助款裡面納入的一個內容但是另外我也想跟委員報告一下因為我們大家覺得在地方上很不解的是說像這我手上的是"},{"start":9763.506,"end":9780.202,"text":"我看到是總統令在今年的3月21號公布中華民國114年度中央政府總預算裡面我們看到第26款直轄市及縣市政府第一項直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2501億元照列"},{"start":9783.445,"end":9800.466,"text":"也就是呢 今天從地方政府上看起來就是 立法院是分文未刪啊 完全照列所以我們當然覺得說請問你那個 這裡的 我們的一般補助款在台北市議會通過沒有"},{"start":9801.647,"end":9813.388,"text":"通過了 一毛錢沒有刪去年八月三十一號是不是一毛錢沒有刪一毛都沒刪 而且我們現在都已經拒以執行中來來來 請教署長"},{"start":9817.954,"end":9840.513,"text":"其實主席長你是好人不過好人有時候不一定做得對的事像你這個事實到底雙重違法第一個我們經過立法院通過的預算它就是法律叫措施性法律然後你說你還釋憲"},{"start":9842.438,"end":9861.489,"text":"那你錢怎麼用呢 如果你說實現了 所以我就不理他那這樣子你錢都不能用 你現在錢都在用啊你錢都在用 第一個你這個全數通過 而且地方議會每一個議會也都通過了你到底的是侵犯了立法權"},{"start":9862.702,"end":9889.463,"text":"我們通過了,這是我們的職權我們通過了預算一般補助款一毛錢都沒有刪結果你大大一括要刪636億第二個,財務法30條第三項也是講到了不能比去年少你也是這樣刪所以到底的你是筷子手你違兩個法一個就是我們立法院通過的措施性法律一個就是財務法"},{"start":9891.067,"end":9913.467,"text":"主席長 你要不要解釋一下你現在來 我要講一下喔這個剛才副市長講的你刪了哪些他講的長照所以我們看到這個過去的謠言都說我們刪長照對不起我們問了衛福部的市長一毛錢都沒刪結果他們沒有刪 你刪了"},{"start":9915.308,"end":9939.617,"text":"你刪了 我會明明刪了 是你刪地方的長照所以你刪了是什麼 老的 小的 身障的 社會無力還有交通設施 無障礙的設施 比如說啟尼學校 啟中學校這些都是非常弱勢的 你專門殺弱勢的難怪啊 主席長 你有內法的 你要去解釋一下"},{"start":9940.642,"end":9967.516,"text":"報告委員我們這個3的部分就是說雖然你這個一般性補助你沒有寫說要3但是你有在那個3減的裡面要我們自行3減636我通過了嗎對通過要3減636要我們自行3減636但是636我們3減的部分我們是表示是有困難因為我們前面已經3減了你不要混淆大家了我們原來就有統3"},{"start":9969.037,"end":9993.715,"text":"我們就刪了300多億但是有一個636是沒有指定刪減的但是基本上就是原來統算的那幾項就統中央的單位那幾項縱使再刪我們是沒辦法承受業務根本沒辦法進行所以這個部分再刪的部分只能刪到國防外交和教育那這三項我們都不能刪所以只能不得不要刪減一般性補助我們都鼓勵你了"},{"start":9995.316,"end":10005.023,"text":"而且台北市我在跟您報告台北市它經過刪減以後它還比去年增加82億所以台北市本身的財源就是非常的好"},{"start":10010.329,"end":10028.572,"text":"跟我們報告 事實上大家都這麼認為但事實上以今年來講我們如果是用統籌分配稅款加上補助的部分台北市市六都裡面排名第五名這個大家都希望來我講一下給大家也不是科普"},{"start":10029.953,"end":10044.964,"text":"中央給地方就三筆錢第一個統籌運費稅款第二個一般性補助款第三個計畫型補助款一定要這三個家鄉一起看六都裡面台北市永遠都是第四名第五名"},{"start":10046.265,"end":10066.267,"text":"很簡單 因為她是台北市因為她台北市這就是這樣啊 大小眼啊 人家都知道啊所以這個主席長 你不能夠直接挑一項來講啊還不是說她是排第二 並不是排第五喔我們把三項合起來 她是排第二喔那是你講的 來來來 我們副市長都是你第二 你講第五呢"},{"start":10067.208,"end":10094.469,"text":"是 報告一下我們一百四年的部分是總共八百六十億元 六都排名第五去年是八百四十二億是六都排名第五所以今年是第五 去年是第四對啦 直接我跟我的統計這樣 你們不要亂講因為我們這邊數字是顯示第二喔 不是第五喔好啦 你們這樣要坐也沒辦法啦我就是想說第四名 第五名這個解決辦法喔"},{"start":10095.697,"end":10112.387,"text":"我們現在這個左院長實在很厲害啦要給他刪636你就等於哪個人來勒索反正地方政府的補助款大家一定心痛好不好 再追加預算啊這結果是什麼結果就是沒有刪到就636啊 636跑掉了Let's go"},{"start":10116.4,"end":10135.276,"text":"昨天那個636有夠厲害啊這個叫滿天過海啊刪掉它補掉所以你沒有刪636啊因為縱使要辦追加你也必須要符合追加的條件才有辦法追加你現在用這個來恐慌我們這是沒辦法做的一個地步這個主席長這樣字字不厚道啦把636吃掉了"},{"start":10144.724,"end":10147.185,"text":"謝謝賴委員我們接下來請莊教兵委員質詢"},{"start":10178.305,"end":10188.342,"text":"好 主席 在場的委員先進列席的政務機關上的官員 會長 公眾夥伴媒體 記者女士先生有請行政院主計總署陳主計長財政部莊部長和主席署的宋署長宋署長"},{"start":10200.529,"end":10227.14,"text":"委員好主席長好 部長好 署長好來 先請教主席長是主席長去年 省今年的中央政府總預算被刪了多少錢兩千零七十六億兩千零七十六億是你刪的嗎不是是立法院刪的嗎是是立法院刪的你有沒有刪中央政府總預算沒有沒有 好今天我的體重是七十三公斤那今天如果有人要求我減重十公斤那你覺得我怎麼減最快"},{"start":10229.073,"end":10257.205,"text":"我的頭剛好10公斤頭剁掉就減了10公斤可以這樣嗎應該不會嘛你會從哪裡減脂肪多的地方減嘛對不對好假如我73公斤要我減10公斤那請問一下目前地方政府的財政有沒有餘裕目前情況都已經好轉好轉了我看到的說有剩餘那是這幾個地方政府剩餘都一樣多嗎還是有的剩的多有的剩的少還是有的甚至還不夠"},{"start":10258.827,"end":10273.754,"text":"一般是直轄市是剩比較多直轄市剩的多因為它本身分配的一個統籌分配稅也比較多那屏東縣呢 屏東縣剩很多嗎屏東縣沒有屏東縣沒有剩很多啦 剩的還不夠啦所以今天"},{"start":10274.707,"end":10289.626,"text":"如果說來我們看一下今天三減預算的提案是台灣民眾黨黨團中國國民黨黨團他的提案文寫得很清楚三減總數如果未達939億7500萬利於補足叫行政院自己調整"},{"start":10290.126,"end":10303.644,"text":"因為我叫你減10公斤3公斤從屁股的肥肉減其他7公斤你自己看著辦那你是不是要從你會剁頭剁腳剁手嗎不會嘛你會從脂肪剁來減嘛那地方政府也有剩餘但是我今天要問的是說這636億你們同樣的都減25%"},{"start":10309.35,"end":10335.467,"text":"這對於財政 地方財政剩餘比較少的 甚至不足的 不公平你覺得有沒有這樣的感覺是 這個我們會檢討很好 那我們要看那現在呢 剛剛有人在一直問 下一頁今天什麼時候 藍白統三了 今年1月21嘛 是不是然後呢 行政院有沒有覺得不可行 有沒有 有有沒有提出呼籲有 我們熱愛南行3月12提出呼籲嘛"},{"start":10336.291,"end":10357.328,"text":"好 那麼 副議有沒有通過沒有通過副議沒有通過那剛剛有人一直在提到地方財政收支劃分法你知道現在新版的財劃法什麼時候公告通過的嗎3月263月26中午公布實施嘛3月21嘛是不是在副議遭否決之後"},{"start":10359.167,"end":10380.714,"text":"所以這些情況 裁判法在我們中央政府的預算要求你們自行調整636億之後才通過的裁判法並沒有適用今年度的中央政府總預算 是不是這樣好 那解放 民進黨在5月15號提出申請釋憲然後呢 院長在5月26號提出說 欸 或許可以再加預算那麼憲法法庭也受理了這個釋憲案"},{"start":10382.074,"end":10402.171,"text":"如果行政院沒有提追加預算或立法院多數黨團不願意提追加預算那你覺得釋憲是不是有一個機會是,我們也是希望能夠經過釋憲來做一個修正所以我要簡單講,就幾分鐘而已啦這個就是,如果說藍白的國會多數不願意來提追加預算"},{"start":10403.763,"end":10430.263,"text":"不願意來接受提最佳預算我要強調一次喔 憲法規定啊立法院是不能為增加支出制決議的立法院不能提出要行政院提最佳預算但是如果最佳預算行政院沒有提我們就看視線了嘛 對不對好 往下看來 我問了一個問題 來謝謝陳主席長 我們現在問部長部長 我就要關心重大的事情啊美國的繡改新制偉大美利法案 他說什麼從美國匯款到境外的資金要匯款稅 有沒有聽過"},{"start":10433.085,"end":10447.394,"text":"最近有注意到這個問題但是這個法案目前沒有說明非美國公民或他美國人在美的合法投資後的資金會出會不會被剋有沒有這個部分我覺得詳細的細節還是要有在觀察但是要注意往下看現在台積電"},{"start":10448.737,"end":10464.835,"text":"台積電是在台灣上市的公司國際資金來這邊買他的股票他把資金當中1650億他去美國投資設了美國廠美國廠賣了晶片在美國的市場賣了晶片賺了錢現在他的這個錢資本利得到匯回台灣來按照這樣的美利偉大的法案會不會被課5%的匯款稅"},{"start":10467.978,"end":10474.784,"text":"有沒有可能這個部分我還是跟委員報告要看他們這個稅的詳細內容來講現在還有個899更可怕他說什麼他說這個當中還有報復性的稅要報復誰報復這些這些這些好對象是什麼各國的政府央行對不對外匯存底美元官方機構主權基金還有呢銀行授權業"},{"start":10495.287,"end":10513.983,"text":"他怎麼說 課稅的範圍 外資在美國的營業利得他的鼓勵或公司債的債息 會出的都含含在內還有稅率會達到20% 從5%開始他這邊提到一個對美國實施不公平租稅的歧視性外國什麼是歧視性外國 他說全球企業最低稅負 好往下看"},{"start":10515.285,"end":10532.811,"text":"目前台灣有考慮基本稅額的條例的第八條有沒有考慮我們的實施全球企業最低稅負有沒有這個部分當然是在我們裡面有一個提案我們會從12條9到18一旦台灣做了這個事情台灣是不是就是實施這個899當中歧視性的國家"},{"start":10541.594,"end":10564.261,"text":"沒有,應該也沒有,對是不是?如果我們實施了,就是他的嘛他說的歧視性外國嘛,899嘛,沒有宋組長為什麼不是?往上跳並沒有,對再往上跳,有沒有?還沒有如果他說對美國實施不公平的租稅的實境外國包括什麼?實施全球企業最低稅務,就寫在這裡啊台灣一旦實施了全球最低稅務制就是美國嚴重的歧視性外國,就要用899啊宋組長,你怎麼說?"},{"start":10567.774,"end":10587.699,"text":"報告委員,在他899裡面所稱的歧視性的待遇,所謂的包括DST我們叫社會服務稅,另外一個叫全球最低稅負制,並不是全部的全球最低稅負制所以說還要看觀察他的基本的內容,但是有可能會被美國視為是歧視性的外國,有可能你希望他不要?"},{"start":10588.439,"end":10609.485,"text":"但是你不知道他會不會據我們了解基本上是問美國的一些專家你問過川普我再來聽你的建議啦好來我們看一下如果按照這個莊部長如果中央銀行把我們的外匯存底在美國去持有美債還有我們授權公司到美國的投資收益根據899他要把這個錢匯回來台灣會不會遇到899的問題"},{"start":10614.122,"end":10641.055,"text":"我覺得這個部分還是要看最後他的界定如何以及我們實際的資金的一個情形好 你說他要看來 我再往上跳真的 還要再往上好 來 再看一次899說什麼課稅對象 外國政府 包括央行官方機構 包括主權基金日本農林中央金庫退休基金 包括什麼瑞典 挪威退休基金 勞退基金金融單位 銀行 保險公司公司企業 台積電寫得清清楚楚啊"},{"start":10642.11,"end":10666.825,"text":"到底有沒有細節怎麼樣我們很擔心啊部長你了解我們的擔心嗎台灣有沒有實施他所認定的全國最低全球企業最低稅務資也不知道台灣現在目前來說我們在實施的AMT還沒有到GMT的那個階段你認為還沒到GMT我們事實上還沒有到那個階段你可以跟我們全國現在關心那個課題的企業說明一下我們還沒有"},{"start":10667.185,"end":10694.826,"text":"我們再逐步的再來看全球實施的一個情形台灣現在是多少 12到15嘛如果到達15了就是了嘛對不對15的還是AMT的這個部分未來的GMT我們會看其他國家實施的情形來推動剛剛有講到主權基金嘛最近我們政府有一個政策要再推動要構思"},{"start":10696.331,"end":10699.075,"text":"主權基金嘛是主權基金在不在899的韓社範圍內"},{"start":10700.831,"end":10722.799,"text":"第一個主權基金目前政策的方向是這樣但詳細的一個規劃目前來說還有國發會在邀請相關的部會在討論當中妳是不是相關部會之一財政部是妳是不是管稅務的主管機關財政部目前來說先就主權基金設立的話妳是管稅務的主管機關嗎他的裁員我們先討論裁員操作我說妳是中華民國政府負責主管財稅的機關嗎那當然你當然了解美國政府的財稅機關的思考嘛"},{"start":10727.501,"end":10746.024,"text":"所以財政部的意見非常重要如果說未來我們國家建立主權基金根據這個899我們的主權基金的操作不是說一定要到美國不可啦但是主權基金如果是在投資的對象在美國"},{"start":10747.694,"end":10766.532,"text":"那麼899的條款我們主權基金在美國投資賺了錢怎麼拿回來對 也就是說未來主權基金的操作我們當然要去觀察899條款的一個適用的情形那要去評估在那裡做這樣的主權基金的投資以及它的一個財務的操作適不適當以及在賦稅上的負擔"},{"start":10767.913,"end":10781.335,"text":"所以你要告訴軍管會我們的壽險業大部分的部位在海外很多都買美債是不是是有買美債的是有對 買美國公司債萬一這些壽險的海外部位受到899影響"},{"start":10782.942,"end":10799.707,"text":"財政部要不要提早預警當然我們要去了解899實質的一個內容以及影響在哪個方向所以我剛剛開玩笑我說宋署長我說你是沒有跟川普通過電話如果你跟他通過電話你今天也不會在這裡財政部長請評估美國稅改新案"},{"start":10800.487,"end":10813.791,"text":"偉大美麗法案對我國的影響、幅度以及嚴厲降低衝擊的方案一個月來本委員會提出一個書面報告,可以嗎?好,我們盡快先提供好,謝謝謝謝部長,謝謝署長,謝謝主席謝謝蔣委員的諮詢,現在請賴慧芸諮詢主席謝謝主席,有請主計長還有台南市護士長主計長,台南市的護士長"},{"start":10833.513,"end":10853.861,"text":"主席長 副市長早安我想行政院從去年8月將總預算送到立法院來審查現在已經超過9個月了主席長那距離立法院今天就是我們今年在1月21號三讀總預算到現在也有將近4個月其實"},{"start":10854.981,"end":10855.362,"text":"今天排這一個"},{"start":10874.316,"end":10895.204,"text":"內容的一個委員會的那我們委員會今天排這一個預算其實我想我應該為台南講一些話那我在這裡請先請教主席長這個美國罕見警告就是藍白兩黨勿不要那個二億三減國防預算那到目前為止"},{"start":10896.944,"end":10908.057,"text":"其實國民黨已經刪了在野黨已經刪了國防預算從國防部的武器設備及零件等等的一個軍事的裝備跟設施跟國軍的戰備工程他就刪了68.8億"},{"start":10914.724,"end":10935.081,"text":"那我想在這裡我要特別請教主席長就是說為什麼為什麼就是說在美國他們會這麼強調就是說他們嚴厲的警告那當然這個就是關係到我們台灣深層的一個問題不知道你對這個案子有什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":10935.887,"end":10948.303,"text":"所以我們盡量要來確保我們的國防預算也希望逐漸達到GDP的3%以上然後往上逐漸來增加但是今年刪減的預算所以我們就沒有辦法刪減國防"},{"start":10950.546,"end":10973.273,"text":"立法院要求我們自行刪減636那636的話我們如果不刪一般性補助我們就必須要刪國防外交還有一個教育所以兩相權衡之下我們不得不才刪一般性補助款636這個部分那我們也是強調各縣市如果有問題我們行政院會全力來協助解決這個問題以上要補充"},{"start":10974.893,"end":11001.143,"text":"當然主席長我們知道你在平衡就是我們台灣的每一個地方每一個地方政府的一個經濟面所以你做了揮就是說不得已的一些就是資源上的一個分配那我們從地方自治那個制度法跟財政收支劃分法裡頭我們去看到了這一些法源那當然這個有沒有違憲我們已經提出了這樣的一個違憲了違憲的一個視線的"},{"start":11004.184,"end":11009.429,"text":"一個那個動作了那我們知道就是說在上個月上個月那個我們"},{"start":11012.759,"end":11040.239,"text":"在上個月就葉澤山護士長在我們的行政院會議裡頭有特別建議行政院就是用追加預算的一個方式來處理解決地方面臨到的一個困難因為在這一次的統三預算還有收支劃分法裡頭其實台南是一個最困境的又被刪了最多也被凍了最多那是不是護士長你可以說明一下就是說在我們財政這麼困難的狀況之下"},{"start":11042.321,"end":11060.67,"text":"那你們建議用什麼樣的一個方式來追加這個預算謝謝賴委員對地方政府一般性補助款被刪除的這樣子的困境的一個關心那因為這一次立法院刪除了中央的總預算2076億那我想"},{"start":11064.392,"end":11092.148,"text":"行政院也是做出了非常困難的決定才會刪除地方的所謂的一般性的一個補助款我想這個可以理解不過這的確造成了地方上在今年度預算執行各項計畫執行上非常大的一個困境所以台南市政府跟其他縣市都是一樣面臨這樣子的一個困難所以各縣市也都提出了因應的一些策略"},{"start":11092.788,"end":11109.126,"text":"那有些縣市是提出了所謂的訴願但是依照訴願法的話那提到行政院行政院在三個月之內要做出決定但是可以再展延兩個月我相信各地方政府沒有辦法等五個月因為現在已經是六月份了"},{"start":11109.907,"end":11126.4,"text":"如果再等到5月份到12月了那其實都沒有意義了所以過去因為台南市政府也曾在100年的時候被議會刪除了38億所以當時候就是用追加預算的方式來解決了當時候的一個困難"},{"start":11127.381,"end":11155.099,"text":"所以我們在上個禮拜在黃偉哲市長特別的指示之下我們在行政院會特別提出了請行政院考量用追加預算的方式來解決目前地方政府所遭遇到的一些困境那也謝謝行政院很快的來同意用追加預算的方式但是如果沒有立法院立委們大家的一個支持"},{"start":11156.038,"end":11170.293,"text":"我想這等於是空談所以我想在這裡也要特別拜託我們各位立委能夠考量到地方政府今年度各項計畫已經都在執行或是它是延續性的一個計畫不能夠停"},{"start":11172.856,"end":11200.369,"text":"所以要拜託各位立委們大家來共同支持行政院的追加預算那我想這是干擾體制最低最低而且最及時有效的方式啦好 干擾體制最低也是最快的一個方式啦我們知道就是說台南在六都的統籌分配款裡頭其實我們不僅是分配的最少也是增加的最少的啦那在這裡我要請教主計長如果一"},{"start":11201.129,"end":11222.32,"text":"那個台南市政府就是說他提出的一個追加預算的一個方式那如果是可行啦如果是可行那那個主席長這個需要多少的時間你可以去匯集地方政府的需求跟意見然後向行政院提出這個追加預算呢各位委員報告其實我們剛剛講的就是說"},{"start":11225.711,"end":11241.436,"text":"一般性補助的部分他主要是在調節縣市的不均衡那所以一般直轄市他分配61%的統籌分配稅那其他縣市是24%那這有基本上的不公平的現象所以我們就會透過一般性補助來把它彌平來"},{"start":11243.437,"end":11264.527,"text":"讓各縣市之間能夠達到一些的均衡所以一般縣市補助它的功用是在這裡跟統總分配稅款是按照營業稅那些的不一樣所以這個台南市的部分它在一般性的補助款的刪減部分它就會刪得比較多那主計長你一般性的補助的數額你怎麼去決定它呢"},{"start":11265.047,"end":11291.947,"text":"對我們就是按他一個基本的一個三項基本財政的一個項目然後再加一個增育財源就是說我補助你讓你比去年更多的一個部分這個除了定額補助以外還有一個增育財源這主要是這些項目但是現在就是說我們刪減了台南市有提出要追加預算但是追加預算也必須要符合追加預算的一個要件那第二個還要看你說時間要多少那必須要看"},{"start":11292.327,"end":11317.982,"text":"提出追加預算的一個項目第三個還要是說我們提出追加預算的部分要貴委員會貴院要能夠來支持那這才有用所以本身我們自己在追加預算的一個籌編的部分時間必須要看我們提追加預算項目的多寡這樣那一般總預算它項目很多就大概需要三個月那如果項目不是那麼多我們可能盡量縮短時間以上一個補充"},{"start":11320.023,"end":11348.479,"text":"所以最少三個月啦好 主席長我再請教你就是說那個行政院今天統三一般性的補助款這個合不合法它的法律依據在哪裡因為行政院已經決定在今年統三一般性的補助款25%囉那我們相對的我們台南也會減少52億那到底這個統三一般性的補助款到底是不是那個合法那你的法律依據在哪裡"},{"start":11349.258,"end":11369.063,"text":"是 其實我們依照地方制度法第69條的一個規定我們對於 中央對於財力較差的一個縣市著予補助而且還要橫著我們自己中央的一個力量來做一個補助所以我們現在三一般性補助款我們也沒有違反相關的一個法令的規定"},{"start":11370.523,"end":11394.093,"text":"所以是在沒有違法那如果在沒有違法的前提之下我們都知道在1月21號就是立法院已經三讀通過2025年的中央政府的總預算案可是審查這個審查的這一個預算案是由多數席次的在野黨他們專制去主導那其實在這種非常混亂"},{"start":11395.313,"end":11412.481,"text":"那非常草率的就是通過了刪讀甚至沒有宣讀沒有宣讀就是刪減後的稅出的總額那如果因為這樣子這麼混亂的一個狀況之下那你來刪除這個一般性的一個補助款我可不可以這樣講呢"},{"start":11413.826,"end":11441.327,"text":"是因為立法院刪除的一個要我們進行刪減636那金額盤納實在是自愛難行那另外也會造成政策成敗無所歸屬然後責任政治難以建立所以這個部分呢我們也提出復議但是復議又被維持原決議所以這個部分我們現在仍然在申請釋憲當中所以我們是盡所有的一個救濟程序的一個能力來做"},{"start":11443.114,"end":11450.74,"text":"好 謝謝我想主席加油好 謝謝賴昭偉的執行謝謝 下一位請李昆哲委員執行請謝謝昭偉 我們請主席長主席長請來 主席長好是"},{"start":11472.36,"end":11483.795,"text":"請問一下齁 這個在野黨啊 有議員說這個三種預算呢 是砍一些吃吃喝喝的錢請問一下 這砍預算是砍掉吃吃喝喝的錢嗎"},{"start":11485.506,"end":11514.284,"text":"主席長是 它主要是砍的部分因為它是1439億那裡面有1000億就是台電嘛然後其他的項目就是大陸地區的一個旅會砍了80%國外旅費和出國教育訓練砍了60%還有媒體和政策業務宣導會砍60%還有一個特別會刪減60%那部分機關它有的是全部刪除像行政院像法務部它特別會全部刪除那所以"},{"start":11514.784,"end":11532.256,"text":"政業黨的立委有講說這次砍掉總預算是砍掉吃吃喝的錢這公平嗎不是這是都是一般行政作業的一個費用那砍除以後他對於一個行政事務的一個推動是有他的一個困難在那有一些現在連電費都付不出來所以他現在都是用舉"},{"start":11533.377,"end":11550.758,"text":"借的或者欠債的一個方式來執行那台東甚至於他拿那個執行長還拿他自己的房子去租借去借錢然後來做執行的一個費用所以這個部分我們還是希望能夠透過最佳的一個方式來把它一個彌品"},{"start":11551.519,"end":11568.329,"text":"好那因為這次這個在野黨砍了預算那其中有636億這個是屬於說要我們行政機關自己去刪減的部分那有台北市長講完他就講了啊他說要溯源然後連本代曆討回來我聽不懂這什麼意思我也不清楚什麼叫做連本代曆討回來他可能說遲延要加濟利息啦"},{"start":11581.536,"end":11595.348,"text":"什麼?食鹽撥款要加低利息我看了一下你們所提供的資料這包含我自己新北市在內的這個今年度"},{"start":11597.294,"end":11617.318,"text":"中央政府對於新北市的統籌分配款跟一般性的補助款今年度是983億然後呢去年度113年度呢是914億那換言之呢我們今年對於新北市的這個補助呢比去年多了69億這個數字有沒有錯是 是正確的好"},{"start":11620.279,"end":11649.151,"text":"就是說我們中央政府對於新北市的補助含統籌分配款、一般性補助款加起來比去年多了69億成長7.5%這有沒有問題對 這是三減後的仍然要增加68.5億約百分之七點多就是說有刪掉了大概30億左右但是中央政府對於新北市的補助人比去年還多是"},{"start":11650.08,"end":11658.964,"text":"那我看了一下你們所提供的資料就六都來講新北成長7.5%台北成長8.9%桃園8.2%台中5.8%台南3.8%高雄14.1%對於六都的補助都比去年還要多那這是在扣掉這個一般性的補助款之後這個數字有錯嗎沒有錯"},{"start":11676.997,"end":11693.366,"text":"所以換言之就算是有按照立法院在野黨的決議扣掉了這個一般性的補助館之後我們中央政府對於至少直轄市我新北市的補助都比去年都還要多是"},{"start":11694.484,"end":11712.855,"text":"都比去年都還要多那現在有地方政府還在講啊就是說如果你扣掉他們的一般性補助款他們可能有一些基本的教育啦社會福利啦這些政策這些設施都沒辦法做那請問一下會有這些影響嗎"},{"start":11714.144,"end":11743.684,"text":"事實上我們要刪減之前我們都會盤算各縣市政府他大概他的一個稅計剩餘或者是說他舉債的一個空間那事實上我們刪減會影響的是稅入啦所以稅入的部分呢你如果說可以遵檢一些相關的一個支出然後到年底的時候也可以由自己的累積剩餘來去做填補或者是說由舉債來做舉債那換言之我再問一下主席長就是說我們刪減部分是屬於他對他們的稅務的部分"},{"start":11744.224,"end":11768.796,"text":"是那他們如果講那些不管是教育啦社福啦這些支出是屬於稅出的部分對 照案執行的部分他如果是照案執行會有一些調度上的一個問題那所以他們也可以不要去刪這一些項目嗎是 沒有刪 稅出沒有刪啦對啊 那所以今天如果按照他們的邏輯是他們要去刪那些項目時不是我們叫他們去刪那些項目的啊是"},{"start":11769.448,"end":11788.505,"text":"所以我聽到很多的直轄市或是縣市的代表有上來講他說一般性補助款刪掉之後那他們一些社福啊教育啊都會受到影響那不是中央政府叫他們去刪的是他們這些科目裡面他們要去做調整他們去刪了這些科目是不是"},{"start":11789.466,"end":11808.721,"text":"所以這個部分 稅出的部分我們是沒有動它影響的是稅入那稅出的部分呢就是可能它可能要用以前年度的稅計剩餘來做一個調整或者是說它要刪減一些它不必要的支出來做調整對 就是說他們稅出有很多的項目他們也可以去"},{"start":11810.002,"end":11826.811,"text":"刪除一些我們認為是非必要性的支出就不用去動到比如說他們講的教育啊社會福利的支出嘛對不對所以如果他們今天這樣子做的話那我覺得這些地方政府對不起這些縣市民啊"},{"start":11827.931,"end":11847.491,"text":"為什麼要去刪掉這些教育、社會的支出?更何況中央對於地方的補助,我剛才講了,至少就我新北市來講是增加的這沒有問題吧?那我也看到有一份公文,這其實我自己去年也收到類似的公文就是說我們有爭取一些地方性的補助"},{"start":11849.293,"end":11866.95,"text":"但是呢我都看到那個公文公文它上面有寫說上開的補助呢如今立法院審議結果有所刪減的時候將一起審議結果配合調整那這個是除了是我們自己所爭取的這些地方性的預算之外你們在去年的8月30號"},{"start":11868.351,"end":11885.877,"text":"也發了一個文應該是給全國的縣市政府就是說一般性的補助款呢這個編列還有執行的應注意事項也特別的提到就是說如果立法院審議結果有所刪減按照其審議結果配合調整嘛這是去年8月30號就給地方政府的文對不對"},{"start":11887.057,"end":11903.244,"text":"所以理論上他們都知道有可能因為中央政府總運算受到影響的時候比如說今年中央政府總運算被砍了2076億所以我們對於地方的這個一般性的補助款就會有影響是不是"},{"start":11904.244,"end":11922.384,"text":"因為如果說是可能有影響或者是說某部分的縣市他執行有困難那這個部分我們都會全力來一個協助他把他這個困難來解決是這樣那所以你有先提醒這個縣市政府是有可能8月30都有提醒了對因為我們"},{"start":11923.645,"end":11948.741,"text":"預算今年的預算是1月21通過的所以你們在去年8月底那這個是例行性的發文還是說特別去年有發這個文例行性都有發文那就表示說這個因為一般性的補助款有可能因為總預算的結果會受到調整就對了是因為中央政府必須要衡佐自己的財力去做佐與補助而不是全部要補助是這樣"},{"start":11949.281,"end":11972.367,"text":"好 那請教一下 那所以今天在野黨的這個決議 它說我們違法 請問一下有違法嗎是 依照規定我們這個部分調解沒有違法相關的一個法令啊他們說要按照新的財化法啊 新的財化法已經通過啦對於這個一般性的補助款啊 這個不能低於去年的這個補助啊"},{"start":11973.944,"end":11989.769,"text":"所以因為我們是114年度的時候他已經公布了3月21然後後來新財化法有通過那新財化法通過的部分他是上年度所以我們是以115年度籌編的來算他的上年度是114年度的一個那個"},{"start":11991.089,"end":12004.714,"text":"所以說這個財化法通過在後總預算通過在前那如果說要適用的話也是明年115年度的事情那所以現在這一般性的補助款刪減了636億是合於法律規定就對了"},{"start":12008.675,"end":12023.86,"text":"好 那請問一下那當然啦 大家還是不希望說預算有刪掉這麼多我們也不希望說中央政府總預算被刪掉這麼多那有任何的補救方法嗎我聽這個院長還有事講說可以利用追加預算的方式來做處理"},{"start":12024.62,"end":12044.024,"text":"是,如果要最佳,第一個必須符合最佳的一個相關的法令的規定第二個也必須要立法院這邊能夠支持所以我們也懇請立法院能夠支持那我們就可以把這個部分來做一個調整那可是就時間上來講,現在已經是六月份了我們會盡量來趕"},{"start":12046.425,"end":12073.937,"text":"如果說因為這個主動權是在行政院也不是在立法院那如果因為這樣子的話那會在這個會期提出來嗎我們這個如果說各單位各縣市的建議那我們會把它拿回去然後跟院長來一個做一個討論然後也跟院長來做建議希望要這樣做調整然後讓各縣市都能夠得到一個反檢那所以這個會期有機會提出來就對了"},{"start":12075.152,"end":12081.236,"text":"好 謝謝主席長 謝謝主席謝謝李委員的諮詢 現在邀請公共委員諮詢 請感謝主席 邀請陳主席長跟財政部長部長陳主席現在已經11點50 所以可以發片到等到公共委員結束以後 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":12101.048,"end":12122.333,"text":"先請主計長剛剛有提到說有關於這個特別預算的這個部分最佳預算的部分最佳預算的部分你說這個會期會提出來嘛對不對就你個人的理解最佳預算基本上的合法性怎麼樣就是要符合規定啦那你認為現在有符合規定嗎"},{"start":12123.43,"end":12143.326,"text":"你是說一般性補助款因為我們這個部分就是說要朝向說這個部分是屬於法律或者是屬於重大的一個建設那有嗎我看不太出來有符合其實基本上我們希望解決問題但是核補法"},{"start":12143.946,"end":12161.74,"text":"合不合法才是一個關鍵嘛對不對那剛剛你又提到說你這個會期要提出來我聽起來是有矛盾啦這是第一點第二點的部分呢我想要就教於您的部分呢這次桶或山都超過過去的紀錄但山已經山了沒有辦法這洞的部分呢的部分有可能解"},{"start":12162.641,"end":12187.223,"text":"動的部分有兩個,一個是委員會解,另外一個是院會解就你所知道的部分動在這次的金融戰中,佔總預算大概多少那委員會解動的比例大概多少,還剩下多少沒有在院會裡頭做解動現在我們動解的有1381億那解的怎麼樣那目前解的部分大概是有幾個還沒解"},{"start":12189.344,"end":12215.365,"text":"數字沒關係你待會再給本席啦我們事後再來做一個回覆沒關係就整體來說我們說要解決這個目前刪了過度嚴重的問題嘛就是說你本來統刪的部分有高達939億然後現在補足的部分又透過363億來刪除這個一般補助款刪了之後呢現在呢有人說提出溯源你認為溯源可能嗎 可行嗎"},{"start":12217.027,"end":12231.661,"text":"對 這個要看溯源委員會對 那要看溯源委員會就是法律上我們就站在主管機關來說你要去考慮說這溯源有沒有可行你要去面對因為你是被溯源的對象嘛然後溯源到行政院當中能不能溯源 要溯源到何時有沒有可能這個都是一個大問題啊"},{"start":12232.762,"end":12247.021,"text":"所以我這樣聽一聽追加預算的可能性不大可能不合法然後溯源也不可行所以已經造成一個一般補充款被刪除的事實這要跟所有的各縣市政府講清楚啦不要讓大家有充滿錯誤的期待我覺得第一點要講"},{"start":12250.666,"end":12269.976,"text":"第二點呢你在三個過程當中以一般性補助款來說它有基本的原則它應該均贏區域的平均發展嘛對不對所以說你要依照這個財務能力自有財源來看嘛你看看以六都來說自有財源最高的是台北市93%最低的是台南市55%可是你為什麼大刀一挥全部都砍27%"},{"start":12272.486,"end":12295.436,"text":"沒道理嘛 這只是好到你而已每一個人來講說 我很公平 我都刪27%可是你這種刪除的方式 跟你補助的方式原則就不一樣刪除的方式跟補助的方式原則不一樣你應該是有財源比較好 你應該刪多一點啊你是有財源比較差 你刪一樣多 這不公平嘛老實說 已經不得不刪 當然我們要面對你也是不得不 對不對"},{"start":12296.056,"end":12315.041,"text":"誰叫黃國昌要提這個案誰叫藍白他們要聯合舉手通過這個案子對不對可是他們又不敢面對這個問題又弄一個假的一個方式想要透過訴願的方式來推卸責任那是不可能的事情嘛這打假球嘛推卸責任嘛實在推卸責任嘛所以這種問題上你問你不能解釋清楚為什麼當初你要一刀砍沒道理啊"},{"start":12319.764,"end":12326.313,"text":"我們是參照立法院通山的一個原則通山金額啦通山金額你怎麼可以通山所有的縣市這樣子"},{"start":12328.157,"end":12349.207,"text":"你們要檢討一下嘛怎麼可以一般性的補助款的原則就是要調劑各區的營需不同然後平衡區域發展原則是這樣子你一般去給的時候就這樣子三怎麼可以不顧這個原則呢這我是最大的質疑在這邊啦主席長你稍微休息一下你回去檢討一下第二個部分我想請教一下莊部長"},{"start":12350.347,"end":12370.879,"text":"部長你有沒有確定發現喔這個宮古銀行喔那到多少一間一間都發現事情啊從台灣銀行這個詐騙集團土地銀行這個行員挪用租金第一銀行又有協助詐騙集團開戶合作銀行合作金庫又變成是台大醫院來進行收款之後招欠部長問題出在哪裡啊28號不是有開過會嗎"},{"start":12378.228,"end":12404.643,"text":"軟刺不是開會嗎開完之後有什麼決定有什麼好的解決方法說一下好不好我覺得這個第一個就是我們的公股行庫應該對於內控的機制還要做加強因為事實上有法規的相關的規範要做規定的話那落實執行非常重要如果徒有規定沒有落實執行其實是等於是枉然的所以因此應該要在內控的部分要加強去做集合"},{"start":12405.302,"end":12415.537,"text":"那有什麼方法 你這是道德宣示嘛不是 那我們當然對於一個公股負責人的部分在考評的時候這部分都會納入的一個事件"},{"start":12416.235,"end":12433.307,"text":"我覺得老實講這種事情一直一而再再而三出現部長跟那個署長都要加油啦這種事情老是在發生這很漏氣耶公股銀行是應該最有公信力的地方耶那天5月28號好像還討論到一個問題嘛還討論到不動產融資的問題管控的問題嘛"},{"start":12437.99,"end":12460.577,"text":"那問一下現階段來說我看到青青安的這個核對的這個項目3月比去年少了22% 4月比同期少了40%嘛那一說是皇室降溫啦 那一說呢是公股審查變嚴格啦那我只問一個問題啦 部長到底現在還有多少水位可以給首個族給這一個青青安帶的人啊 依照你們"},{"start":12461.337,"end":12482.803,"text":"各個銀行的那個水位其實他們在網路上都有一些公告也就是說第一個銀行法有30%的一個天條的限制那他們也有內部的一個預警的比例那目前的預警比都在預警比例的範圍內所以目前來說所以你沒有掌握真正的數字就是了嗎台灣銀行有你後面是你會後數字在給本席啦"},{"start":12484.164,"end":12504.514,"text":"這個應該對外講清楚 基本上水位沒有問題水位沒有問題 對水位沒有問題 讓大家能夠安心然後這個供苦分壇要怎麼解決 你要講清楚不是道德喊話而已啦或事後處罰我覺得這個效果都非常有限啦好不好 部長加油啦然後後面一個部分我想要問一下那個國有財產署 國有財產署部長你注意一下 你在旁邊聽一下"},{"start":12513.151,"end":12530.222,"text":"那個陳組長你有一個那個政策我本席是蠻肯定的就是要提供公園、綠地、兒童這三個地目給地方政府來建立這個共榮的公園這很好那我想問一下這個到底有多少"},{"start":12531.284,"end":12555.116,"text":"沒有去統計過嗎目前還沒有因為會發這個新聞稿是之前有地方政府要來申請但是跟都市計畫的這個容許使用有問題所以我們會跟內政部國土署這邊開過計畫那就是同意像公園市場還有兒童遊戲場這些地方政府本來要開闢的或要"},{"start":12556.897,"end":12572.721,"text":"要來佈用的還沒有完成這些手續但是要建立這個設施的時候我們先用委託管理的方式來提供不用因為我們國有土地的提供而耽誤了這些設施的設計你們現在只是強調不要一案一案申請就同胞來申請嘛看起來是這樣子嘛"},{"start":12573.241,"end":12590.774,"text":"如果可以的話我是建議署長你把這些地目全部做一個統籌的了解概括性的了解但是這些土地的取得需要經費的部分怎麼處理才是一個很現實的問題他們大部分都是有經費之後才會來跟我要土地"},{"start":12591.174,"end":12606.6,"text":"對 都是有這個現實的問題但是地方的需求卻很高啦我們如何把公跟徐之類的問題來同時面對來做一個解決啦那另外一個問題我也跟您說一下還有一個是停車場的部分有這樣的需求啦麻煩你把公園跟停車場的部分一併納入啦好不好"},{"start":12607.38,"end":12625.997,"text":"報告 其實各縣市政府都知道台南市政府我們也都有跟市長這邊都談過了我是希望說一個通盤的檢討那問題你點在哪裡我們來想一下到底是公方的問題還是區方的問題可以嗎是好 麻煩署長另外因為我再請一下主計長上來一下好不好 主計長"},{"start":12633.578,"end":12656.451,"text":"主長現階段我說實在的地方的公園大家都很需要因為現在預算都三三三砍砍砍但是地方的需求還是不斷是不是在這個部分有可能跟相關單位的時候去告知說將來在整個預算配置的上面特別公園的部分或停車場的部分有的是屬於交通部有的是屬於內政部這個地方需求很強"},{"start":12657.532,"end":12672.808,"text":"那個主席長他們在這個整個預算在編列的時候提醒他們一下考量一下地方的需求啦我要跟委員報告啦我要跟委員報告就是財化法它本身分配的非常的不平均那所以以中央來講它要3.3753億"},{"start":12675.05,"end":12702.168,"text":"那他要刪減其實要優先刪減的就會是對地方補助的一個計畫型的一個補助就會受到更大的排擠對不對一定會受到排擠所以這部分是不得不也沒辦法很困擾但是明年呢我們要面對這個問題了嘛裁判接下來我們要面對這個問題是一個大問題嘛比今天我們要處理一般性的補助款更大嘛可是這個地方的需求還是一段的增加譬如講我再跟你問一個問題就是交通部也提一個公路建設的改善計畫中間有60億的部分"},{"start":12705.43,"end":12726.886,"text":"聽說行政院到現在還沒有辭職還沒有核准嘛還在卡關嘛因為沒辦法核也就是因為裁判法的問題因為這個問題一直卡在這邊這不是辦法啊這就是一切都是亂三預算的結果造成地方建設的停滯嘛在野黨亂搞胡搞瞎搞所造成的結果我今天對每個人都一樣"},{"start":12743.191,"end":12760.979,"text":"休息了休息 睡不著睡不著打不定你啊 給他們治療一下給我喝一點我要喝了 我不喝"},{"start":12771.583,"end":12772.324,"text":"10分钟以后就开了"},{"start":12804.281,"end":12804.868,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":12854.959,"end":12854.979,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":12889.84,"end":12890.4,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":12924.013,"end":12932.315,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12950.247,"end":12977.449,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12985.043,"end":13003.554,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":13014.365,"end":13035.242,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13047.547,"end":13061.521,"text":"這裏是北京大廈的廟宇"},{"start":13077.736,"end":13106.209,"text":"大家好,歡迎來到我的頻道"},{"start":13122.646,"end":13126.347,"text":"這位你吃好了嗎要幫你收拾你先收拾好了好謝謝"},{"start":13160.44,"end":13160.861,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13179.275,"end":13196.903,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13202.569,"end":13205.296,"text":"蕃茄酱"},{"start":13299.189,"end":13301.393,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":13333.404,"end":13333.504,"text":"太好了"},{"start":13360.424,"end":13362.345,"text":"向委員會報告我們繼續開會請李燕秀委員質詢請"},{"start":13380.387,"end":13402.976,"text":"好 謝謝主席我可不可以請主席長還有我們台北市政府的林華副市長林華副市長 主席長苗栗縣的邱麗麗副縣長苗栗縣邱副縣長我們桃園市的桃園市的秘書長對 還有我們連江縣連江縣的王縣長是王縣長 不是秘書長"},{"start":13410.717,"end":13433.461,"text":"好 主席長你先往前一下齁我先確認一下去年113年12月30號這個簡報這一張是不是你的畫紅線這是你做給我們立法院的報告一般性的補助款不能減少依法律意義之初皆屬相關法律規定無法因財政困難而予刪減"},{"start":13441.338,"end":13468.718,"text":"這是你寫的嘛好 謝謝主席長所以我要提醒你不要著是驚飛不要今天的主席長打臉去年的主席長謝謝主席長主席長你可以回位子請坐好 我先請麗華副市長副市長 我剛才聽到你的報告跟說明我也看到我們一般性補助款做長照 做教育 做基礎設施"},{"start":13470.123,"end":13483.808,"text":"這些種種種種的費用我請問副市長這哪一項這次刪掉39億對不對台北市一般性的補助款37.9億37.9億2500億對台北市的影響37.9億我要請問副市長你要刪掉哪一塊哪一塊是你能撿的哪一項都沒辦法撿"},{"start":13496.124,"end":13521.787,"text":"每一項都很重要齁當然都沒辦法減因為都是照顧到弱勢還有兒少跟老人跟教育所以一個都不能少我看到是照顧學校照顧長輩做學校做基礎建設更重要的是預算已經編列送到台北市議會所有的讀論做基礎工程"},{"start":13522.728,"end":13535.652,"text":"做坡路 鋪馬路 照顧臥室 照顧長輩 沒有一樣可以省所以 主計長也在這邊 你也做過台南市政府的主計長就請主計長來指導我們 要怎麼刪"},{"start":13540.234,"end":13555.554,"text":"不然的話 到時候變成蔣萬安市長 李英王副市長再三長輩的費用 再三育兒津貼我覺得這個要請中央指導我們 好不好所以這時候要拜託立法院能夠協助我們地方把相關的一般性補助款可以順利的撥給我們來執行 謝謝"},{"start":13558.218,"end":13570.028,"text":"謝謝 您也要附上我接下來是不是請苗栗縣苗栗縣是我知道全國唯二兩個縣市不能舉在一個是宜蘭 一個是苗栗縣我請邱麗麗副縣長您來回應這個地方補助款25%對你們的衝擊"},{"start":13576.653,"end":13588.135,"text":"謝謝委員首先我要跟委員報告就是苗栗縣政府是唯一全國被財政異常控管而且是完全無法舉債的一個縣市那我們從105年的舉債389.76億已經到現在我們已經降低到346.69億一共清償了43億所以其實我們的財政基本上有"},{"start":13602.018,"end":13618.626,"text":"困難的時候我們還是努力的調整自己的一個財政情形同時也要兼顧相關的一個民生建設以及社福以及教育那因此苗栗在如此高依賴中央政府補助來支援我們施政需求的同時呢我可以舉一個例子"},{"start":13619.566,"end":13623.972,"text":"我們114年的總稅率為279.61億元那其中地方政府要自籌的是56.11億元佔20%而中央補助是223.5億"},{"start":13638.069,"end":13643.956,"text":"高達百分之八十佔比是百分之八十而且這些預算已經都按照原額編列完成也經過我們議會的審議尤其我們現在經過這個中央政府行政院已經合併我們是要來主辦桃竹娘"},{"start":13655.149,"end":13658.87,"text":"大矽谷的一個計畫之一的一個縣市所以我們地方的一個基礎的建設以及相關的社福都一再的影響我們大矽谷未來的一個執行潛力因此我們現在從對不起委員因為我們現在從113年本來"},{"start":13671.075,"end":13673.797,"text":"我們中央主計處合併給我們的是102億9582萬元現在修正之後高達把我們整個刪除掉的有28億1233萬也就減幅達到了27%"},{"start":13687.446,"end":13691.228,"text":"然後我們合併之後只剩74億8480億萬元這樣子如此高的一個三減額對我們後續的執行相關的社福跟甚至張羅未來的地方創生的這個大細股都會影響非常非常的巨大"},{"start":13706.854,"end":13718.72,"text":"這個一般性補助款 邱鎮軍委員在線他都非常關心造成苗栗短掃66.9億我們現在苗栗每一年的總預算才279億這個短掃的差額其實佔將近十分之一的預算"},{"start":13726.488,"end":13730.351,"text":"所以主席長您在這邊您也指導一下既不能取債的縣市然後又要負擔辦大活動也好而且預算已經編列完成而且已經審議完畢實在不知道怎麼對議會交代"},{"start":13742.219,"end":13743.4,"text":"跟委員補充報告我們明年還要協助中央政府來籌辦這個2026年的台日觀光高峰論壇2027年我們還要協助中央政府來辦理台灣燈會"},{"start":13759.232,"end":13780.039,"text":"那這些都是非常重大的支出報告主計長我們沒有要跟你吵架啦他在講什麼你很聽得懂都是協助中央政府這都是中央的很多工作對方來執行所以請主計長告訴我們我們要刪減要哪一樣他既不能借錢你要叫他怎麼辦好來我最後邀請我們縣長桃園對不對桃園這邊來"},{"start":13788.24,"end":13808.343,"text":"我想桃園的弱勢的民眾孩子其實他不知道發生什麼事他只知道他原來114年應該有的身心障礙的弱勢的日照社會保險的補助還有低收入弱勢兒童的醫療補助現在可能都沒有了"},{"start":13809.571,"end":13837.103,"text":"那我了解主計處的邏輯看到今天主計處的報告第三頁特別提到113年很多的縣市都有很多的剩餘只有一個沒有那個短處57億是誰是桃園市那桃園市正在發展正在成長"},{"start":13838.484,"end":13846.686,"text":"我們也默默的承受了全世界最大的天然氣的一個等於是發電站所以我們現在"},{"start":13848.807,"end":13867.855,"text":"卻沒有辦法拿到我們一般性補助款這個對桃園市來講影響非常的大那我們希望能夠這個主計長能夠像剛才回應有幾位委員提到對於縣市財政比較不好的包括我們有短處的希望能夠"},{"start":13868.935,"end":13885.203,"text":"額外於考慮,這是我們今天來的最主要目的好,依法一般性不住,是不能刪的所以一開始我已經講了,他們這些報告也說不能刪好,我最後請那個我們的連江縣縣長縣長您辛苦了,來自社員的地方,來我是,縣長今天沒空,我是秘書長"},{"start":13887.699,"end":13905.631,"text":"是 谢谢委员连江县是全国最小的县市那我们虽然这三个总额并不多三亿六千五百万可是以比例来说还是到27.3亿我应该这样讲我们这个自筹款才三亿八千万这个"},{"start":13906.673,"end":13924.719,"text":"可是這次的刪掉就三億六千五百萬所以對我們來講我們是五級的財政狀況所以自籌款就已經三億八千萬三億六千萬對我們地方來講是非常非常大的負擔我簡單因為時間到我就不多講是希望中央能夠把這個部分還是給補給我們謝謝"},{"start":13926.3,"end":13948.967,"text":"好 那我想大家的心聲應該主席長都有聽到請主席長再指導我們到底要三哪些每一塊都是社福 每一塊都是教育都是各縣市政府第一線要做基礎建設而且預算都已經編列審訊完畢那就請主席長還有一些是承擔中央的很多的"},{"start":13950.447,"end":13968.731,"text":"活動 或者是已經答應要辦的活動 錢從哪裡來你們不想做壞人 你們在指責說是 立法院刪減預算但是一般性補助款你們自己也講說不能刪那所以 指導我們 後續要怎麼做處理好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝李委員的質詢 下一位請嚴寬和委員質詢請"},{"start":13981.686,"end":13988.127,"text":"主席各位列席 官員大家早 主席有請台中市政府市長政府市長請"},{"start":13996.101,"end":14013.49,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14013.59,"end":14031.441,"text":"政府卻大砍我們地方政府的一般性補助款那台中市以台中市為例每年上繳的1400億以上去年是2000億那總共6年加起來是超過9000億啦上繳中央嘛那這樣子"},{"start":14032.361,"end":14052.038,"text":"大大會砍掉我們地方性補助款27%對於這些刪減的內容包括低收入家庭兒童及學生生活輔導社會救助社福經費等等那我想先請教副市長你可不可以告訴我們台中市被刪減這個一般性補助款之後對台中市有造成多大的危害"},{"start":14052.518,"end":14069.089,"text":"好 謝謝委員 首先我想做一個澄清早上吳秉慧委員他可能因為不是台中的委員所以他可能聽到別人任意議員的說法說台中市這邊的這個一般性補助款還比去年的多 為什麼不能做事這個可能是錯誤的資訊那麼我們在這個中央"},{"start":14072.851,"end":14097.214,"text":"幫我們就是說把我們的這個一般性補助款做的統三之後減少27.3%之後呢我們剩下的一般性補助款是86.1億那我們去年的預算呢這是在一般性補助款的部分是109.8億換言之今年如果被統三的話呢我們的一般性補助款是比去年要少了20多億所以今年會比去年少如果三的話"},{"start":14097.934,"end":14114.38,"text":"所以吳秉偉所言他只有講的說這個今年比去年的多基本上是沒有這個事情我在這邊第一個要特別的澄清那麼第二點呢剛剛有很多的縣市都討論了說有些我們的委員說很多縣市政府都有所謂的暫餘或者說財政的這個狀況是良好很不好意思台中並不是這樣台中在去年已經111"},{"start":14120.922,"end":14129.974,"text":"四年度我們的預算是短處94億短處94億換言之是入不敷出的入不敷出的部分就已經需要靠舉債來擬貧所以呢剛剛包括"},{"start":14133.789,"end":14139.651,"text":"那幾個縣市也有特別的請命希望主計處這邊能夠針對財政有短處的縣市應該要特別的重視我們的財政狀況那麼剛剛委員有提到我們統三是減少了27.3%多那麼事實上如果我們把它拆開來的話跟委員報告"},{"start":14157.799,"end":14167.73,"text":"那在總共大概有社福 社會福利的經費那麼還有教育的經費可是社會福利對台中的影響是特別大的它超過了27%它的顯幅是高達34.02%因為它修正後是大概37億5000多萬"},{"start":14174.898,"end":14177.94,"text":"原來是56億9千多萬 接近57億那麼減少了19億3620萬那它影響的會有哪些呢 跟委員報告包括低收入戶的家庭兒童就學生活補助他們影響的有4億多 影響有8萬人次以上"},{"start":14193.047,"end":14219.608,"text":"那麼中低收入戶的老人生活津貼在老人這個部分影響是3億5千多萬影響了有4萬8千多人次喔那麼身心障礙者的部分呢在生活補助上會影響9億6千多萬影響有15萬人次的身心障礙者的生活補助另外還有國民年金的保費補助影響有2億多那麼一估的影響是有35萬多人次那麼在教育的部分呢跟委員報告"},{"start":14220.669,"end":14235.078,"text":"原來核定數是30多億修正後少了5億剩下25億多減少18.56%這會影響教育的部分是哪邊呢包括幼生的就學補助跟育兒的津貼補助"},{"start":14237.219,"end":14262.077,"text":"育兒津貼跟就學補助我也很了解在現在這個少子化的趨勢年輕夫妻生活特別辛苦時期的這個趨勢這個就學補助跟育兒津貼其實是特別需要的一個部分所以在這邊我們其實想要欲請中央一定要重視一般性補助款在這個預算額度上面以及在它的應用項目上面是非常的重要的"},{"start":14262.617,"end":14285.047,"text":"那麼不要讓大家覺得說最近常常在討論的什麼中正路中山路經國路的改名那中央說只要願意改我經費就給那結果呢真正大家需要的育兒津貼就學津貼我要的時候說錢不夠那為什麼會這樣大家都很好奇很疑惑是的是的我想今年通過的是最高的總預算現在政府有最多的錢"},{"start":14286.047,"end":14308.907,"text":"但是他沒有辦法做事情拿了兩兆九千億但是他說他不能做事情那我們看看台中市政府每一年上繳給中央的這六年超過九千億每一年分配回來給市府的不到一千億啦所以這個部分地方政府努力的在創稅在收稅上繳給中央但是你中央現在大刀一砍"},{"start":14310.27,"end":14313.78,"text":"這個政治報復你的理由是說什麼你的理由是說這個"},{"start":14317.492,"end":14342.632,"text":"立法院刪除預算所以行政院就拿弱勢群體該有的補助款來威脅那全民其實現在都看得很清楚不是統刪不是刪減的問題結果變成是執政黨的政治報復那犧牲掉的是誰剛剛我們在那個主席長也有提到說這個國防外交教育都不能刪那我請教一下國防今年增加多少較去年國防增加400億"},{"start":14344.073,"end":14357.487,"text":"教育呢?300億貴府呢?306億交通呢?389億內政超過400億每一個部會的預算都增加錢都增加但是我們的政府沒辦法做事情"},{"start":14358.345,"end":14385.586,"text":"找理由要來砍我們地方政府的一般性補助款再來一般性補助款是什麼法定義務支出行政機關不該任意的偵檢如果地方政府拒絕提供預算或決算資料的時候中央可以停播但是地方政府有拒絕嗎有嗎 沒有啊那行政院濫權刪除一般性補助款這是不是開民主倒車現在"},{"start":14388.655,"end":14415.715,"text":"砍了25%所以這個部分我想大家都很清楚啦不是沒有錢是不想給不想給誰我們這些弱勢的民眾政府認為說弱勢的民眾不應該擁有這些錢所以他不給這心態可異啦所以我想在這邊我要跟主席長講主席長你剛剛提到的說合法合規為什麼我們所了解的法定義務支出"},{"start":14416.741,"end":14438.583,"text":"法律規定這是法律的紅線喔你不可以刪減一般性的補助款而且就算你這個法律規定就是要比上個年度的更高不能更低除非啊剛剛有提到說拒絕提供預算或預算資料並沒有發生這些事情"},{"start":14439.713,"end":14457.934,"text":"所以我想今天很清楚的我們各縣市的這個副市長或者是我們的這個都到現場來的那我們希望的大家來到這邊就是表示表達我們的心聲不要為了一個政治的報復來去刪減到我們需要在"},{"start":14459.235,"end":14478.57,"text":"地方上最需要補助最需要幫助的我們所有的這些弱勢族群包括我們長者長者的費用還有我們這些兒童需要照顧的費用所以今天我們在這邊強烈的要求希望主計總處我們主計長好好的回去反映一下"},{"start":14481.571,"end":14503.164,"text":"趕快這個懸崖勒馬不要再做這樣的事情讓我們地方政府好做事讓我們地方政府可以好好對待我們地方的鄉親努力的創稅讓我們的稅收可以增加好不好好謝謝我們謝謝顏坤仁委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":14512.706,"end":14516.993,"text":"主席 請主席長跟財政部長陳主席長 莊部長委員好"},{"start":14523.715,"end":14545.456,"text":"好,部長跟主席,我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次有關財政收支劃分法就是要解決中央集權、集錢、地方政府養中央鼻息的這個問題今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事"},{"start":14546.38,"end":14573.183,"text":"因為修正了所以地方將來會有穩定的裁員而不會像今天一樣中央想砍就砍今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權給行政單位相當的彈性但是今天看到的是主席長我想問你一個問題看一般補助款是你的意思還是行政院長的意思還是總統的意思"},{"start":14575.08,"end":14600.893,"text":"我們是提了很多的方案但是有一些方案是真的最後定案的是誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款行政院我們這邊是提上去給上面做決定上面是行政院院長嗎還是總統府院長拍板所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算請大家把這個事情搞清楚第二個部分"},{"start":14602.301,"end":14629.964,"text":"立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪今年是第一次嗎以前統刪大部分都是超1%啦以前就有統刪不超過1%所以都沒有這個問題以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎不是因為以前刪的少嘛刪的少所以就刪不到對但是以前有刪到我只問你以前有刪到一般補助款嗎沒有但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分"},{"start":14630.58,"end":14642.701,"text":"有刪到過但是有刪到一般補助款嗎你有沒有回答我沒有你要不要回答我要用麥克風是沒有沒有以前立法院刪的統三預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款"},{"start":14644.04,"end":14661.394,"text":"說清楚講明白第三個部分今年就像剛剛很多委員都講了這一次總預算裡面稅出預算只有監察院外交部財政部經濟部環境部跟數發部的預算比上一年度少其他的單位都比上一年度多"},{"start":14662.648,"end":14680.513,"text":"所以我們在統山的金融裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性就是你可以去做自行的調節請問主席長你有去調節嗎你有去詢問各部會你哪些東西可以審嗎審到最後以後還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上"},{"start":14682.349,"end":14705.54,"text":"通案刪減的部分它是不可以調解的 它不可以調解然後本身裡面呢 它當然都是一般人的業務機會所以你就相信了所以你就直接去砍地方政府了 是嗎不是 這個部分是因為我們本來它金額那麼大大概也沒有那麼大的一個計畫可以刪減所以只好去刪地方政府來 財政部部長"},{"start":14706.641,"end":14726.011,"text":"我在裁划法的時候你一直說要跟地方政府溝通好他們意見不同所以一直在溝通溝通了十幾年都沒有用第二個我想問一下這一次主計處在刪地方補助款的時候我們財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎這個部分因為我不清楚你沒有來主計長你有沒有"},{"start":14727.472,"end":14743.919,"text":"有沒有跟大家說我要砍你的錢砍多少錢有跟他們溝通過嗎沒有直接發文對嗎所以就是說這件事情對你們來說就是權利是我的我愛幹嘛幹嘛今天才會站在這邊還會在這個提案預算都審查過了"},{"start":14747.881,"end":14771.381,"text":"第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎"},{"start":14774.369,"end":14799.729,"text":"其實我們在刪減之前我們都有一些去做涉算所以現在這個結論下去他們要去追檢預算還有他累計剩餘的一個情形那如果說他本身因為這個部分他們會在影響是在稅入面不會影響到稅數所以他們要去追檢預算也就是說沒有其他的方法了是嗎他可以遵檢相關現在這些縣市省長坐在這邊就是要聽你處理處長他要怎麼辦啊"},{"start":14801.55,"end":14821.656,"text":"是 但是這個部分呢他要怎麼辦啊他也可以用累計剩餘來做他可以用他自己的錢來做所以你不會再給他錢答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題嘛利用你的資房錢你去把它花一花他也有建議說要辦追加但是這個追加的部分他現在勢必要追檢了啦立法院來支持啦"},{"start":14822.332,"end":14851.972,"text":"他現在勢必要追檢了啦 被你弄到要追檢了啦好 重點是 行政院在去年阻擋了財化法告訴我們現在版本就是最好的版本而且所有的內容都說 啊 我補助款給好多好多現在的問題就是 今天所有的問題財化法才是最終解決的方法所以財化法 我想問一下主席長你現在要編新的預算是用新的財化法還是舊的財化法我上次問過你嘛 你說依法行政嘛"},{"start":14854.537,"end":14866.353,"text":"明年的預算是新的財化法對吧因為我們現在目前送四線還是要依照那個憲法法庭他四線的結果所以你預算地方政府現在是用新法邊還是舊法邊"},{"start":14867.176,"end":14895.11,"text":"地方政府的部分這個部分我還沒有調查你們你不知道所以也不知道所以你也沒有要依法行政好最後的問題我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要還是要立法院請他們在這邊才能聽得到第二個地方集權地方被中央集權又集權財化法現在立法院已經修正了你們也不執行第二個他們接下去要編明年的預算也不知道怎麼編現在今年度的預算"},{"start":14896.05,"end":14919.636,"text":"如果是適用舊的財化法它就是一個中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾你們也不遵守這三件事情行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了主計處是完全不守財政紀律讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走這才是我今天的問題財化法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的行政院不願提版本到今天為止還沒有立場"},{"start":14922.25,"end":14932.213,"text":"如果兩位首長真的負責任的話要清楚的告訴院長我們不可以這樣子做現在請新竹市秘書長請新竹市秘書長新竹市張秘書長"},{"start":14942.205,"end":14966.448,"text":"是主席好 委員好是 民主黨我想新竹市台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市喔那我們在修財化法的時候也發現了就是新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大但是真的分到地方的統籌分配稅款非常跟其他縣市顯不公平所以我們做了很多的調整第二個就是這一次的刪減到一般補助款對於地方"},{"start":14967.108,"end":14975.788,"text":"本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響我想知道新竹在這次的被刪了多少那你們對你們影響有哪些"},{"start":14976.872,"end":14984.734,"text":"好 謝謝有人關心新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%不是25%是27.3% 金額是9.8億因為我們規模比較小所以實際上刪了9.8億但刪完了結果我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下34.5億"},{"start":14999.878,"end":15017.467,"text":"25.9億比去年33.5億還要來得少了所以3的其實是影響非常大那剛剛大家都提到為什麼是3我們會受到影響的是教育、社福以及基層建設因為這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的這些項目就是統籌"},{"start":15018.888,"end":15042.763,"text":"一般補助款所指定的施政項目所以我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪所以剛剛所講到所有的弱勢孩子的補助收入的補助營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利以及我們的基礎建設我們的公園我們的道路我們的水溝這些通通受到影響那所以真的是影響非常的重大所以今天謝謝"},{"start":15044.764,"end":15063.357,"text":"召集人讓我們有機會來表達這個意見我們也非常希望說今天的這個審議的議案能夠照案通過把這個補助款能夠還給我們就像我們代理市長所說的以蒼生為念 以上好的 謝謝民俗長我想部長跟主席長大家都聽到了"},{"start":15063.697,"end":15084.323,"text":"今天大家都說如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了現在刪到的是社福是基層建設是教育教育社福這是政府的責任這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目"},{"start":15085.343,"end":15102.323,"text":"優先性必要性主席長我想請問一下你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎優先性跟必要性就大聲的告訴所有的國人地方政府的一般補助款是我不認為它有優先性也不認為它有必要性的講出來"},{"start":15103.264,"end":15115.053,"text":"報告委員我刪新竹市的部分只有刪爭域裁員的部分所以他三項補助我是沒有刪的所以這個部分我必須要釐清所以他說的不對那你們給他的錢不會影響到我們以三項合計起來譬如說一般性補助你大聲的說我不影響社福不影響教育不影響基層建設"},{"start":15124.54,"end":15145.047,"text":"以新竹市來講的話它是比去年還增加三項合起來比去年還增加如果比去年還增加就不會有秘書長在這邊講話這裡講話不能說謊的所以他們受到影響你又說沒有受到影響所以誰說了算它是有受到影響但是你要不要對著麥克風說呢"},{"start":15146.988,"end":15157.999,"text":"她是比去年增加7億啦三項合起來 一個是計劃補助 一個一般性補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個是計劃補助 一個"},{"start":15165.005,"end":15191.395,"text":"今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了才會在這裡636億你告訴我沒有影響但是我們被通案刪減的部分就是說我們刪減了930億我們必須要通案刪減所以沒有辦法財政收支化分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以所謂的予取予求我覺得這才是今天的問題所以主席長我要問"},{"start":15192.557,"end":15210.234,"text":"妳的備案是什麼?妳什麼時候會有備案?或者是今天為止之後就是妳們隨人顧性命?妳是指財化法的部分嗎?是,不是只有這個今天這個錢妳有什麼備案?沒有備案,來這邊只是虛晃一招妳要怎麼解決這個僵局啊?"},{"start":15211.488,"end":15235.87,"text":"那個一般性補助的部分嗎我們因為有一些部分縣市也有建議說要追加我們也希望立法院能夠支持那如果支持這個部分那你們什麼時候要做什麼事要做什麼補救要做什麼事啊我們會盡量在這個會期裡面來把它這個會期提出追加預算是嗎如果說立法院願意支持的話我們就你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們然後再去算算我們各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎"},{"start":15237.762,"end":15250.647,"text":"我們沒辦法因為現在就是自愛難省的部分就是在這裡是這樣子主席長我覺得一樣啦還是一樣以蒼生為念啦拜託謝謝黃珊珊委員接著我們請王世堅委員"},{"start":15263.624,"end":15267.567,"text":"我們台灣今年正式邁入超高齡社會那麼相較於日本他們是花了11年的時間從高齡社會"},{"start":15293.877,"end":15316.36,"text":"進入到超高齡社會而我們台灣只有七年就七年馬上就直接跨入到超高齡社會在這個為什麼這麼快速因為我們的生育率二十多年來我們二十多年來生育率急劇下滑"},{"start":15317.659,"end":15341.525,"text":"我就以我們現在統計數字而言目前我們每一位女性的國人同胞只生0.8位小孩相較於生育率已經很低的日本而言日本每位平均1.3位所以我們以上個月四月份"},{"start":15342.694,"end":15359.449,"text":"我們的生育率而言我們四月份生育率僅出生了全國只出生8684位嬰兒那相較於去年同期四月我們少了2069位 少了20%所以生育率急速"},{"start":15367.844,"end":15388.875,"text":"而且嚴重的下滑現在是我們國家 我們的國安問題啦那麼我跟妳提這些事情就是說 提到說上個月有一則新聞有一位女法官那麼她在我們台北市的某個診所做了人工生殖手術 要求職"},{"start":15390.527,"end":15406.89,"text":"結果這一筆花費花了37萬元,理所當然這應該列入他所得稅申報列舉扣除額但是竟然被國稅局把它否定掉了"},{"start":15408.304,"end":15436.105,"text":"國稅局說不行 說為什麼不行說啊 這一家診所必須是會計記錄完備正確的醫院啦會計記錄完備正確的醫院天啊 國稅局到最重要的關頭的時候欸 國稅局跑出來啦意思就是說 這樣子你花費 這個就不能列入"},{"start":15437.062,"end":15447.187,"text":"扣除額那我認為我認為這個是很荒唐的部長生意率下滑我們鼓勵全民"},{"start":15449.209,"end":15472.055,"text":"鼓勵女性同胞們大家來生產報國這是國家政策耶我們國家應該要鼓勵才對耶結果竟然這個時候那財政部用個根本跟財政部截然無關的事情在阻撓 你不覺得這莫名其妙嗎你知不知道有這個事情"},{"start":15473.852,"end":15493.71,"text":"報告委員這個事情我知道那我想當然對於面對我們少子女化的一個情況政府有各項的對策我想在稅的部分也有相關的對策相關的租稅的優惠來做鼓勵那至於要報所得稅的時候你所要列舉的生育或者是醫藥的這個費用要做列舉的話我們國稅局在審核的時候"},{"start":15495.852,"end":15512.88,"text":"必須要有一些相關的單據那這些單據必須具有它的一定的可信度跟信賴度那也是避免大家民眾拿到一些不可信的資料要求此生小孩這會假的嗎這那麼多醫療的紀錄這個會是假的嗎這是衛福部去查嘛如果質疑的話不是這樣嗎那對於有關相關的一些證明文件你們要求的那如果是作假的"},{"start":15523.104,"end":15536.2,"text":"那只要這個醫院他就是照你說的他的報稅紀錄很完備很正確那他就可以來作假那你也不會發現不是嗎"},{"start":15537.881,"end":15564.528,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告要生子求子是多嚴肅的事情這個會作假這個有太多醫學科學的記錄證明這怎麼會作假呢不是嗎跟委員報告所以這個部分我們財政部也進行了相關的檢討然後也修正了審核的一些要點那這裡面的規定我們也做了適度的放寬那未來這個叫適度放寬喔你現在就"},{"start":15567.969,"end":15588.743,"text":"你現在就把它否決掉了不是嗎你不是就否決掉了嗎我舉例啦我們要鼓勵我們鼓勵我們政策鼓勵居住正義我們就說啊這個如果這個租金你繳納租金租金有支出特別扣除額可以申報"},{"start":15590.103,"end":15618.466,"text":"租金支出的特別扣除額這一個部分我們只要求說那我們房客租屋有沒有這個契約是不是真的有付款這樣就好啊我們會去管道說你租的這個房子這個房東房屋稅有沒有繳低價稅有沒有繳他所得稅有沒有繳你要查房東有沒有繳稅完備的報稅紀錄那另外一位是那應當去查"},{"start":15619.485,"end":15643.577,"text":"可是這跟房客 我們要鼓勵他我們說你這個租金可以特別扣除條例 做無關嘛不是這樣嗎 同樣啊 我們現在要鼓勵生產不是嗎那你如果每件事情 我今天跟你問這件事情看起來是小事 自我認為大事這個凸顯了我們財政部的本位主義啦"},{"start":15645.475,"end":15651.557,"text":"你們這本位主義這麼做如果照這樣部長如果照這樣那以後消防隊去救火打火那就先問一下這個火災戶你稅金繳了沒你房屋稅地價稅你的所得稅繳了沒你家有沒有欠稅可以這樣嗎那如果民眾受害"},{"start":15675.185,"end":15686.591,"text":"被搶被偷去警察局報案 警察局也可以這樣要求囉你要帶稅單來三年份的稅單 通通完備才可以報案 是這樣嗎在民眾有所求的時候 欸 財政部出來臨門一腳財政部可以這樣嗎"},{"start":15696.411,"end":15722.501,"text":"你認為呢 可以嗎委員說得很適合那剛剛舉的例子當然也不會成立啦也不會說要求他要付稅單你還沒有做而已啦不會啦 不會這樣子做部長 我跟你相處這一年來我知道你確實是奉公守法啦我相信 但是我認為你就是過度保守跟我講的嘛 你就扛著這個十字架橫的"},{"start":15724.783,"end":15727.109,"text":"就是我們國家的稅收值得"},{"start":15728.413,"end":15753.726,"text":"就是我們國有財產誰都休想搶走你的十字架你的意思是這樣這個是沒錯但是其實我們的相關規定也在因為這一次在五月的時候我們也做修正了相關的規定同時我們會去有修正了嗎有修正啦五月二十八號已經做修正啦已經做修正嗎對五月二十八號五個月五月二十八號已經修正相關的規定五月二十八號喔那就上個"},{"start":15754.747,"end":15781.707,"text":"前幾天就對了前幾天你們有修正那很好很好你們這樣做很好部長我既然這樣你已經修正上個禮拜修正就對了那要記得通知這些先前有受到危害的這幾位民眾包括這位女法官好不好這個部分的回溯適用的部分我們還比較了解"},{"start":15784.672,"end":15808.034,"text":"5月18日以後才算 不算 我強烈質疑我在想你連睡覺休息的時候 你做夢都夢到要怎麼樣來加強增稅 趕快質疑看我剛剛講的這警察局 消防局 你可以考慮看看不會我在想你可能是這樣子 你就是太過本位主義"},{"start":15809.429,"end":15823.504,"text":"太過本位主義好不好那剛剛我講的這個醫院這個齁我跟你講你們說要會計記錄完備正確的醫院結果這一項其實多數醫院是不曉得他們不曉得說你所謂的會計記錄"},{"start":15825.746,"end":15848.506,"text":"完備正確這一項他還以為說你們去查查稅那他們是這個醫院都很正常醫院診所正常有報稅繳稅以為說這樣就OK不是欸你們這一項標準是要這些醫院主動來跟你們申報結果啊我去查了一下我們現在1601家有座"},{"start":15851.328,"end":15866.202,"text":"有那個自費診所的這些自費診所醫院有做收費的1601家只有6家 只有6家申請也就是說只有6家通過你所謂的報稅完備記錄 記錄完整"},{"start":15873.7,"end":15899.13,"text":"只有六家那所有民眾如果未來我剛講的我們國家正在要提高生育率鼓勵生產的時候那民眾女性同胞們碰到這樣子的事情最後要把這一筆費用列為扣除額的時候又要被你們阻撓了因為那家醫院會計紀錄不夠完備不是這樣嗎啊"},{"start":15905.168,"end":15921.774,"text":"你連站著都在想怎麼收稅怎麼徵稅不是跟委員報告其實我們的相關規定會去調整跟修正也已經放寬了在委員所關心的事情我們也在努力在做我們就把這個規定提供給委員你把這個影片給我看好不好五六天前而已謝謝委員謝謝因為這個上個禮拜那個"},{"start":15929.136,"end":15935.413,"text":"李燕秀委員有執行過了嘛所以後來就修正了好謝謝謝謝黃委員接著我們請黃國昌委員"},{"start":15945.707,"end":15959.053,"text":"謝謝主席 開始詢問以前先請教主席一個問題我剛聽委員會裡面的助理跟我回報說談好了今天這個案子在委員會不處理是嗎"},{"start":15962.703,"end":15988.932,"text":"這個是今天早上的時候就是具體有沒有談好等一下要請問一下賴委員因為我也是帶他當主席我剛剛到主席台等一下我會詢問一下再跟你回答是是是沒有啦那個主席不要介意啦因為你現在是代主席我知道也不是你答應這件事情的那不過因為你現在在主席的位置上真的會議進行詢問這件事情那我只能夠請教你"},{"start":15989.992,"end":16009.547,"text":"因為我剛在前面跟我們的代主席詢問這件事情的時候旁邊的議事人員說似乎是財委會兩個召委這件事情已經談好了今天這個案子不處理確定有這件事嗎對 是黨團那個大概有協商就是所有的委員誰跟誰協商應該是黨團應該不會只有召委協商"},{"start":16014.269,"end":16037.382,"text":"沒有啊 我是台灣民眾黨黨團的章偉啊我從頭到尾不知道這件事啊今天要處理的是台灣民眾黨提出來的案子沒有問過台灣民眾黨兩個人私底下才好不處理喔這樣子好嗎 您可以先質詢我現在來打電話請教一下我們那個相關的人員可以啊 我先表明一個基本的立場如果"},{"start":16038.843,"end":16056.953,"text":"今天民進黨的立委藉由著霸佔主席台就可以為所欲為就聽他們的意思不處理這還像什麼國會啊這麼多地方政府的代表來大家為了卓榮泰的違法濫權都炸鍋了"},{"start":16059.946,"end":16080.836,"text":"我們聽到大家的心聲急著趕快提出這個決議來也同意附委審查幾個民進黨的立委來鬧就不處理喔現在台灣是什麼立法院耍流氓的最大嗎耍流氓最大嗎可以這樣搞喔我清楚的"},{"start":16082.028,"end":16089.433,"text":"我清楚的表達台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我絕對不贊成民進黨委員站著主席台就可以用威脅的方式喔"},{"start":16115.595,"end":16143.661,"text":"委員好來主席長好我問有關於這一次違法濫三地方地方補助款的事情啊狗明星說這是你的主意是不是我們有提供好幾個方案然後給行政院來做參考你們提供幾個方案給行政院三個方案三個方案三地方補助款是其中之一是不是是那其他兩個方案呢三債息什麼債息"},{"start":16145.438,"end":16174.616,"text":"然後第二個方案呢各三一半那那個其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎因為本身在席我們當初跟財政部協調不是啦你就針對我的問題回答就好了其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎因為接下來啦我們又打算要在今天質詢的時候去跟你爭執合法不合法的問題啦非常多的學者專家都已經站出來講了啦就明顯的違法嘛"},{"start":16175.945,"end":16201.871,"text":"結果你們今天財政部也好主計總署的報告也好臉皮有夠厚的說合法合規你敢寫我還不敢看愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫說服不了一般的學者專家從政大財政系的陳國良教授黃耀輝教授每一個都出來罵"},{"start":16203.953,"end":16232.341,"text":"但我們現在的行政院左龍泰死豬不怕滾水燙我就是要這樣惡搞要不然你們要怎麼樣現在在台灣是耍流氓最大啦不要臉最大我講的就是左龍泰接下來政治責任的追究談清楚就好了你說你提供三個方案最後挑全部三地方補助款做這個決策的人是不是左龍泰"},{"start":16233.649,"end":16261.607,"text":"所以行政院來做決定行政院他沒有辦法做決定一定是人做決定其他兩個方案可不可以送來給立法院可以啊今天下班以前送來可以嗎就讓全體國人看看嘛我主計長提了什麼方案給卓榮泰最後是卓榮泰選的嘛不是你的鍋 我不會要你背不是你的鍋 我不會要你背"},{"start":16262.694,"end":16282.722,"text":"我是要把這個責任給釐清清楚來不好意思今天有那個新北市的代表來嗎是不是可以請新北市的代表副市長新北市 劉河南 劉副市長秘書長秘書長好我想秘書長今天來立法院列席應該對於地方的財政"},{"start":16289.795,"end":16310.685,"text":"非常的清楚啦一般補助款基本上在處理的是財政收支差額的部分嘛我說的沒有錯吧這次行政院違法科扣百分之二十五27點多我們總共刪除的平均是27點多新北市被刪了多少30.4億被刪除了30.4億對新北市造成什麼影響"},{"start":16317.588,"end":16333.817,"text":"跟委員報告這一次的一般性補助款的30.4億的部分主要有三項一個是社會福利一個是教育補助的經費還有一個是基本設施其中在社會福利的部分三減的16.12億占全部占整個補助的35.86%"},{"start":16336.238,"end":16362.57,"text":"教育的補助的部分7.6億減幅是21.83%基本設施的補助的經費的部分3.6.72億佔24.86%跟委員這邊補充報告單單這裡面在社會福利的部分我們最主要的是包括身心障礙者的生活的補助中低收入老人津貼等等還有弱勢兒童等等相關的補助單單弱勢族群的部分影響的人數就將高達10萬人"},{"start":16365.091,"end":16390.049,"text":"不包括還不包括基礎建設等等教育的這些相關的這些這些我們的那個市民的這些那個影響所以這一次的那個一般性補助館的刪減的部分確實對我們影響非常的大那市長非常的重視這個問題所以昨天呢要我跟邀集各局處開了這個會跟委員報告這是我開過最沉重的一次的會因為在這個會議當中同仁提出了一個問題他們告訴我說秘書長"},{"start":16393.427,"end":16421.542,"text":"我們國家編列預算國家建設不就是為了保障人民的生活生命安全等等這些基本需求刪除了這些項目我們已經不知道面對市民該如何去做說明這件事情那他們也想知道當時在刪除的時候那是不是有一個優先數據中央可不可以告訴我們這怎麼處理因為我們實在不知道如何去處理這件事情也希望中央能夠盡快把一般性補助款的部分撥補給地方政府 謝謝好 謝謝西北市的代表"},{"start":16422.903,"end":16449.016,"text":"幾個基本的立場一定要講清楚啊現在我在PPT上面秀的是什麼113年中央政府總預算通案的決議跟114年中央政府總預算通案的決議你把前後兩個年度啊通案的決議拿出來比一比啊只要看得懂中文的人啊有基本識字能力的人啊就會知道在114年中央政府總預算裡面"},{"start":16450.731,"end":16473.556,"text":"我們有刪一塊錢的地方補助款嗎我跟大家報告一塊都沒有刪啦一塊都沒有刪啦113年的時候還刪了4%我為什麼114年在提這個案子的時候我地方補助款我一塊都不刪因為我知道地方需要嘛"},{"start":16474.673,"end":16501.385,"text":"目前中央地方的財政劃分收支制度套用我20年前在民進黨的台灣智庫所參加的會議就說要改啦只是民進黨拿到權力了以後不管是錢還是權全部一把抓結果什麼我們要求要刪的中央各機關及所屬"},{"start":16503.147,"end":16530.645,"text":"結果把600多億刪到地方的補助管去違法妄為啊今天早上還有民進黨的立委在那邊說那誰叫你們要通刪啊你們通刪就是不曉得要刪什麼東西所以才用通刪拜託民進黨的立委睜大眼睛看啊你們113年中央政府所預算有沒有通刪是不是通刪113年的時候你地方補助管有被苛扣嗎"},{"start":16532.891,"end":16560.281,"text":"來 請新北市那個113年的時候我們當時的一般性的補助款是101億那那個原則上在當時其實是沒有因為到今年是很特別產生這種錢所以嘛 你就看113年中央政府總預算最後一項是什麼如果經過總算沒有到達299億就要3到299億嘛完全按照以前的方式做我還特別把地方補助款"},{"start":16561.601,"end":16587.43,"text":"把他拿掉就清楚的告訴我們的行政院一塊都不准刪現在卓榮泰在裝著什麼裝文盲嗎看不識字嗎目無法紀啊提案單寫得這麼清楚了然後最後我只講一件事我們那個時候就擔心就擔心民進黨政府會動手腳財政收支劃分法30條我們還加了第三項"},{"start":16588.752,"end":16617.14,"text":"一般補助款不可以少於修正施行前預算編列數去年夏天今年要給地方補助款不就合訂了嗎去年就合訂了耶今年修法生效以後膽子好大修法生效以後還找地方政府現在左翁他要威脅立法院什麼給我追加預算現在他搞擄人兒署喔"},{"start":16618.68,"end":16630.608,"text":"把地方政府當落票我希望那個新北市的代表回去轉告侯友宜市長這件事情硬起來絕對要硬起來不可以讓卓榮泰這樣違法亂搞 謝謝"},{"start":16648.951,"end":16650.531,"text":"請莊部長喔莊部長你好委員好我們最近這十年啊 稅收年年超增啊去年超增多少部分齁 中央的部分是三千全部加起來全國喔全國 我找一下齁"},{"start":16679.775,"end":16706.537,"text":"前年大概多少前年的稅收 最近這五年啊5283去年 5283 5000多億再來前年 中央是3757億好 再來再來什麼我們這幾年來稅收年年超增都是幾千億幾百億中央不是沒錢啊"},{"start":16708.919,"end":16738.19,"text":"那我請問一下部長你這些錢都是來自哪裡是不是來自22縣市各縣市的努力工商企業所有的稅收的來源集中在中央所以中央才變成這樣很有錢嘛不然你的錢是哪裡來的我想我們的稅收基本上是政府和人民大家共同努力然後經濟成長的一個成果"},{"start":16738.697,"end":16759.485,"text":"好 謝謝接著主席請主席長陳主席長以及我們新北市政府的邱秘書長邱敬斌秘書長因為我們常常立委都會在聊天麻煩也請新竹縣新竹縣新竹縣所有委員平常都很用心黃處長希望"},{"start":16768.188,"end":16796.523,"text":"可以為地方特別是弱勢團體社福團體未來國家的希望小朋友的照顧兒少的部分大家盡心盡力希望為地方來多爭取一點所以之前我跟我們新竹的林思敏林委員還有曾振全政委員他們一直覺得像新竹因為有竹科啊其實對台灣的"},{"start":16799.145,"end":16814.967,"text":"財政的貢獻非常非常大 新北的貢獻也非常非常多都是來自地方 大家片手之足 錢拿到中央結果今天居然要三地方的一般性的補助 有良心嗎"},{"start":16816.547,"end":16844.48,"text":"本席長期以來最關心的就是地方社福的問題老人的照顧長照的問題小朋友未來的教育的問題結果今天你們正式不做搞一些亂七八糟的事我請問一下主席長錢要花在刀口嘛你要改"},{"start":16845.259,"end":16864.617,"text":"全國改成中正路要改名要花多少錢這是內政部的內政部請問一下吳次長全國如果中正路要改名要花多少錢"},{"start":16865.854,"end":16884.999,"text":"跟委員報告目前無法估算因為要修改入名的部分還是有地方權責那這個要有共識會不會超過一億會不會超過十億可能還是要另外估算統計一下那我請問一下搞一個大罷免要花多少錢這個可能中選會會比較清楚12億要花12億"},{"start":16895.256,"end":16923.585,"text":"所以我們發現很多事情中央事實上該花的花不該花的就不該花嘛你去搞一個請竹記長太陽能發電這幾年來花了多少錢這個不是我的業務所以我也不是清楚那你覺得中央的部分有什麼地方是不該花而花的"},{"start":16926.175,"end":16935.716,"text":"我們現在大部分都被刪減了所以現在輕微被刪減了很厲害所以很多都是連水電會都出不來你摸著良心啊摸著良心喔"},{"start":16937.565,"end":16964.524,"text":"對這些地方的最基礎 最弱勢的照顧妳怎麼忍心要刪這些錢呢我們也不想刪啊 但是不得不啊妳有自愛難行的地方嗎刪了2076億 所以我們負益啊因為我們執行有困難妳有自愛難行的地方嗎對 所以我們自愛難行妳有錢準備花心思去改中正路妳有錢要去補貼台電一次就一千億 一千億 一千億二話不說就給"},{"start":16966.124,"end":16983.314,"text":"那你居然 我想像不到 你看起來也是慈眉善目的你居然要砍地方社福的預算砍對年輕人的照顧 砍對婦女的關懷主席 我們現在請新北市那個新北市 邱秘書長"},{"start":16990.804,"end":17007.425,"text":"我們看得匪夷所思啊因為中央錢很多我剛剛都講了去年光是稅收就超徵五千多億你跟所有的這個弱勢團體跟婦女團體在那邊資助畢竟居然還要刪這些人的預算"},{"start":17008.907,"end":17018.719,"text":"請問如果他這樣刪的話對地方對這些弱勢團體影響的人士大概有多少對小朋友未來的營養午餐影響會不會很嚴重"},{"start":17021.65,"end":17034.663,"text":"好 那非常謝謝駱委員我想委員一直非常關心弱勢在新北的弱勢跟孩子的教育在這一次我剛剛有特別說明這一次單單在社福預算的部分補助的經費的部分刪除了16.121減福的部分佔了35.86%"},{"start":17040.889,"end":17057.366,"text":"那當然在那個海東的教育補助的經費7.6億減幅的部分是21.83那單單弱勢族群的補助的部分影響人數就將近10萬人10萬人還不包括基礎建設還不包括其他教育的一些相關"},{"start":17058.387,"end":17076.917,"text":"設施的改善等等基礎建設裡面包括道路的整平以及包括橋樑的維護等等尤其台灣又是在低震帶這些安全設施其實都是人民基本生活安全上面所必須要保障的所以在昨天開會的時候所有同仁非常沉重的才告訴我說秘書長"},{"start":17077.737,"end":17102.868,"text":"這不是要調整來向的問題重點是我們不知道怎麼去面對這些的民眾怎麼去告訴他們這些事情要如何去做調整那這一點在新北市影響非常的大我們希望中央的部分對於一般性補助款的部分能夠盡快的撥補給我們尤其是新北市我們在過去的部分到目前為止我們還累積虧損了887億一年期的公共債務的部分還有940億"},{"start":17104.309,"end":17129.639,"text":"所以這個部分我們一直都在遵節開支希望能夠能夠在醫院上面能夠節省但是面對這樣子的一個預算的刪減其實我們其實沒有辦法負擔在這裡跟委員這邊報告那你會不會覺得很難過因為我們地方片手之足所有收的稅源這個財政的這個收支來源收了以後都給中央"},{"start":17130.663,"end":17151.011,"text":"結果中央變成來克扣地方的一般性的補助這樣合理嗎我剛剛有特別說明這個是我當公務員到現在為止開過最沉重的一次會然後我真的不知道答案為何我也不知道怎麼去回答我們同仁是那大家也可以感覺到今天早上"},{"start":17151.904,"end":17162.207,"text":"吳秉瑞其他委員說有做七屆有做六屆那我這邊做八屆了我從來也沒有看過中央是這樣蠻橫不講理的這樣亂搞而且影響的人是那麼多這些弱勢的社福團體這些小朋友這些媽媽這些老人怎麼辦啊"},{"start":17175.165,"end":17201.639,"text":"接著主席可不可以請新竹縣黃局長你能不能說明一下新竹縣因為附近有科學園區的關係事實上你們對中央的貢獻度也非常高那你面對現在來砍你們一般性的預算對你們的影響大不大因為我常常聽到林世民林委員他很積極在爭取啊"},{"start":17203.493,"end":17228.792,"text":"你可不可以說明一下好的 謝謝委員事實上就誠如委員講的我們新竹縣是全國出生率跟遷入率最高的一個縣市那現在全國都是少子化剛剛王世堅委員也有提到可是我們新竹縣是為台灣的少子化做了很大的一個貢獻那在整個招商引資的部分我們新竹縣也連續六年是招商評比的第一名"},{"start":17229.572,"end":17235.363,"text":"也就是說在貢獻中央稅收的部分我們新竹縣跟新竹市事實上貢獻是非常大的"},{"start":17235.933,"end":17262.103,"text":"那這一次呢就是接到這個主計總署的通知啊去刪減我們的一般性補助款我們真的是不敢置信為什麼不敢置信因為我們今年二十幾年沒有修的財務法好不容易通過我們都來不及高興從今年二月到五月事實上財政部就因為稅收收入的關係就減薄我們的統籌分配稅款分別減薄一成五到四成五那現在一般性補助款呢"},{"start":17265.682,"end":17278.526,"text":"從五月份開始 主席總署又通知又緩撥 基本上 甚至可能是刪除這樣的話對我們地方政府造成很大的一個傷害那在一般性補助款的部分我們大概就減撥20.681那20.681這裡面的經費呢我們有校舍的興建"},{"start":17284.108,"end":17304.762,"text":"有新生兒還有包含那個免費的營養午餐然後還有一些弱勢的照顧我們為了讓我們新竹縣的年輕人怨聲能啞所以我們在整個教育經費社福經費的部分我們投入很多那一般性補助款我們就把它用在刀口上可是我們沒有想到我們竹地總署居然"},{"start":17306.144,"end":17320.561,"text":"過去都沒有刪減的一般性補助款在這次做這麼大幅的一個刪減那另外我針對主席總處他剛剛主席長對中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的解釋我有很大的一個疑問因為第三條的規定中央為謀全國經濟平衡的發展"},{"start":17322.563,"end":17337.23,"text":"得市直轄市及縣市政府財政收支狀況來作以補助而不是市中央的財政狀況還有你預算變資的情形而且這個經費當時不管是統籌分配稅款或一般性補助款在去年都是由中央核定的"},{"start":17337.89,"end":17356.58,"text":"那你核定了以後你現在片面的又把它刪減如果這樣可以做的話那請問一下我縣市政府的預算如果經過議會刪減我可不可以去刪對鄉鎮市公所的補助經費呢所以這部分的話我們有很大一個質疑我們希望主席總署能夠懸崖勒馬趕快把應該撥給地方政府的經費趕快撥給我們謝謝委員"},{"start":17360.382,"end":17379.614,"text":"好 謝謝黃局長我們也共同希望足跡總署這裡可以懸崖勒馬不要恣意妄為更不要欺負這些弱勢族群這些父女朋友老人以及兒童未來的國家的希望謝謝"},{"start":17383.182,"end":17401.527,"text":"謝謝羅委員 新竹的財政局的房屋局長房屋局長也講得很清楚接著我們請鄭天才委主席 各位委員 請主計長主計長主計長好"},{"start":17410.953,"end":17438.648,"text":"這個你是公務員出身包括我們財政部的部長都是公務員出身很清楚立法院審查預算的運作立法院審查預算委員會完之後黨團會有協商由立法院院長主持朝野協商而這一次114年度的預算審查"},{"start":17440.951,"end":17468.001,"text":"韓國瑜院長主持朝野協商但是柯建民總召就不協商一直在談大罷免大罷免大罷免所以你都在場你都很清楚這個就是政治的考量預算三讀通過之後行政院呱呱叫韓國瑜院長主動"},{"start":17470.782,"end":17497.072,"text":"在114年2月14號再召開了一次草野協商公文是2月14號發的公文2月18號下午召開草野協商針對中央不是針對地方政府的因為我們很清楚立法委員不可能去刪中央的補助地方的補助款"},{"start":17498.271,"end":17525.571,"text":"不可能嘛 何況又是法律義務支出行政院也說這是法律義務支出我們也不會刪也沒刪但是因為行政院認為很難處理所以韓國瑜院長主動在2月18號下午召開朝野協商但是柯總召繼續的bigger"},{"start":17526.698,"end":17552.355,"text":"韓國瑜院長請行政院秘書長來說明預算到底有什麼困難柯建民總召不讓他說明才造成這個韓國瑜院長還受罵呢 還被挨罵呢這媒體都有報導啊 你也在現場啊 對不對所以在這樣一個情形之下"},{"start":17553.462,"end":17579.173,"text":"我們作為事務官出身的主計長或是部長就應該怎麼去說服行政院院長因為他們很政治我過去也是當公務員我常常我當副主委常務副主委的時候我常常說服說服主任委員所以這個部分是這樣"},{"start":17582.137,"end":17610.235,"text":"當然包括我們的主計總署的其他的同仁事務官也要欠主計長啊也要讓他知道一下所以這個部分啊要建議主計長回去跟行政院院長報告不是中央不是要去砍你絕對要趕快撥給地方政府"},{"start":17611.892,"end":17624.699,"text":"如果真的有困難提追加預算不是針對一般性補助款提追加預算立法院不會接受用一般性補助款去追加預算"},{"start":17625.851,"end":17647.539,"text":"你要用中央機關所要支應的經費有困難的部分提追加預算這才是一個正辦所以這個部分做一個這樣的一個建議另外就是基本設施維持費這個部分你的理由是什麼就是因為這個636億"},{"start":17652.569,"end":17678.649,"text":"636億你去撿的地方一般性補助款現在又去撿這個原鄉的基本設施維持費不是超越了嗎那你不是多賺了嗎所以這個部分要趕快撥給地方原鄉的基本設施維持費這個是原鄉的一個最需要的一個經費所以這個部分是一個最後一點"},{"start":17680.1,"end":17707.915,"text":"最後一點 禁法補償左院長同意的禁法補償要追加預算立法院也做了決議禁法補償要追加預算延民會在今年的3月10號就送到行政院了到現在還在你主席總署的身上趕快趕快送來"},{"start":17709.093,"end":17735.793,"text":"主席長什麼時候可以送來因為總預算必須要看我們要追加哪些這個跟總預算沒有關係最佳預算要看要追加哪些項目然後要做一個會診會診之後然後再確認說追加預算的時程因為項目的多寡會影響到一個作業的時間所以等於是說如果說將來最佳預算你可以分兩次 兩回事這個第一個113年11月7號"},{"start":17739.67,"end":17757.157,"text":"左院長承諾 進法補償要追加預算你不要跟別的扯在一起 好不好趕快送來好 謝謝謝謝政委員齁 主席齁趕快按照立法院的決議做吧那個 接著我們請徐政委員"},{"start":17763.728,"end":17790.625,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請主席長跟雲林縣政府鄭秘書長還有宜蘭縣政府吳志宏秘書長好 雲林的鄭秘書長跟宜蘭的吳秘書長好 主席長好主席長 我想請教你地方制度法從88年修法通過之後行政院編列給地方政府的一般性補助款請問有沒有在執行時被刪減過"},{"start":17793.212,"end":17795.695,"text":"有沒有在執行時被刪減過,從地質法通過以來?"},{"start":17808.598,"end":17837.688,"text":"沒有嘛 主席長也就是說地方的縣市政府的一般性補助款從來沒有在執行時被刪減過剛剛主席長回答是這樣嗎那另外再請教主席長地方政府依據主計總署提供的補助款金額完成整體預算編列並經各地方的議會審議通過但是現在中央政府又突襲式的刪減中央政府對地方性的一般性補助款"},{"start":17838.288,"end":17857.246,"text":"那是不是已經違反了預算信賴原則這樣的行為是不是算依法行政呢有沒有違法我們是依法來刪減以什麼法不是 我們是一般性的一個補助辦法裡面它是說你可以卓越補助那現在中央"},{"start":17858.067,"end":17874.997,"text":"立法院要求我們刪減636我們是有困難所以這個部分我們才不得不來刪減一般性的補助款我想請你看一個文就是行政院在113年8月30號發函給這個立法院的附件有一個114年度的法律義務支出的明細表"},{"start":17875.737,"end":17894.515,"text":"其中也清楚地列出一般性補助款是屬於法定義務支出依法是不得刪減的那請問一下剛剛組長您說過的我們行政院刪減對地方政府的一般性補助款27.3%請問是依照哪一條法律可以授權你們刪減所謂的法律義務支出"},{"start":17895.376,"end":17919.361,"text":"第一個我們對於一般縣市的一個補助是著於補助那所以第二個你說刪減依法律義務的部分以往也都有刪減像國債付息的部分法律義務支出可以刪減嗎以前都有刪減過立法院也有刪減過就是說在那個那就是一般性的地方性補助款你們以前有刪減過嗎我剛剛問說沒有嘛那一般性補助款既然是"},{"start":17919.761,"end":17930.816,"text":"法律的義務支出那為什麼又可以刪減我現在有點不懂這個邏輯剛剛你告訴我一般性的這個以前從來沒有刪減過那它是屬於法律義務支出吧是"},{"start":17932.093,"end":17937.337,"text":"因為時間的關係我必須先讓你聽一下地方的聲音因為像依據我們地方制度法第69條第一項規定各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力較差的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽一下雲林縣政府先說明一下這個我們刪減了27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響"},{"start":17960.439,"end":17985.137,"text":"雲林的曾秘書長謝謝主席也謝謝委員我想我分三點來說明雲林縣政府是一個高度依賴中央補助的縣市我們一般的稅收跟中央的補助回收大概每年都有6億的缺口即使現在逐年的補助裡面大概每年也增加到最多增加到5億所以這個缺口都是存在的"},{"start":17985.837,"end":17999.046,"text":"第二個部分就是說這一次砍的37億的部分一般補助款的37億的部分再加上我們一一式的運動會也到了那計劃性補助款也沒有下來所以對雲林縣來講是一個選上加雙的方式"},{"start":18001.507,"end":18021.358,"text":"這一次在補助款的減免裡面教育我想社府各個縣市大家都表示意見那基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是因為縣市一個很重要的農業生產基地那汛期也到了颱風期也到了那這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款"},{"start":18021.858,"end":18049.674,"text":"所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響以上說明所以對雲林縣這樣的一個農業縣也是弱勢財政相對弱勢的縣市事實上的這個補助款3減37.61之後再加上剛剛您提到的這個我們的全國的運動會所以會造成的財務的這種缺口可以說我覺得是雪上加霜啦所以說我想這影響非常的大那我們再來聽一下我們"},{"start":18050.855,"end":18079.632,"text":"這個宜蘭縣政府也是屬於財政相對弱勢的縣市請問一下這個我們刪減的一般性補助款27.3%對我們宜蘭縣政府有什麼影響好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員也給我們宜蘭這個機會在這邊發表一下那大概在去年我們收到行政院的含原核定的一般性補助款是93.6億那結果在今年我們收到了刪除的"},{"start":18080.552,"end":18109.389,"text":"一般性補助款刪除了25.56億總共只剩下68.03億那大概衝擊到我們因優先之應的農民健保跟國民年金還有老農津貼的法定義務支出而且要彌補中低收入老人津貼還有身心障礙者的補助的必要的社會福利支出那其他的對於六大社福津貼還有教育經費等等相關的"},{"start":18111.511,"end":18119.179,"text":"經費經由斷炊之餘這是第一點那當初我們也跟行政院主計總署反映刪減了25.56億我們縣市政府該怎麼辦"},{"start":18123.208,"end":18138.677,"text":"主計總書跟我們的回應是說我們叫我們減少支出或者增加舉債增加舉債我跟各位報告宜蘭縣到目前為止契金上游累積短處67億那長短債務173億最近這幾年我們林志廟縣長上任之後總共"},{"start":18147.543,"end":18163.704,"text":"對債務還款的38.57億在112年好不容易從重度的在線裡面調整到中度要往輕度發展那主計總數竟然叫我們再增加舉債那這樣子我們就"},{"start":18164.865,"end":18182.297,"text":"勢必要走回頭路我想剛才也有委員提到說苗栗跟宜蘭大概財政都是相當的困難那這邊我們也是再度懇請我們行政院這邊能夠緊速恢復原有宜蘭縣的一般性補助款的額度以上"},{"start":18183.757,"end":18196.222,"text":"好 謝謝主席長你剛剛聽到我想不然是雲林縣或宜蘭縣他們都相對是財政弱勢的縣市那你也聽到對他們的影響很大不管是指生長的這個托育的縮減還有老人工餐還有營養午餐的這個"},{"start":18199.023,"end":18215.789,"text":"還有一些基礎建設的部分事實上都會受到很大的影響所以要請主計長要回去要跟我們的行政院長報告一下真的要懸崖勒馬不要苛刻我們地方的一般性補助款讓他們能夠好好的為地方做事謝謝我們不得不不檢是這樣子謝謝徐宇甄委員接著我們請張啟凱委員"},{"start":18235.61,"end":18241.093,"text":"剪輯 李宗盛"},{"start":18264.199,"end":18268.123,"text":"謝謝主席請主席長給我轉進部長陳主席長 莊部長委員好主規定你2002年應該已經進入這個主計體系了嘛你知道2002年一樣有謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":18288.819,"end":18308.912,"text":"時間調回來調回來 我叫你時間調回來調回來啦 時間不過喔 不用擔心局長2002年一樣要通山 要行政院自行調整多少錢 你曉得嗎300多億 800多億吧658億比你現在的636還多對不對那時候有沒有調整好"},{"start":18318.157,"end":18346.617,"text":"有三大地方補助款嗎對啊那時候中央政府的規模只有現在的大概一半耶那時候大概只有一兆五千億同樣是民進黨執政中度你沉水點啊平靜一點張靜雄要你自行調整要通商的幅度比你經濟還大為什麼沉水點行現在經濟不行"},{"start":18348.243,"end":18373.069,"text":"張建雄行 你中央派就不行以前主席黨行 現在為什麼你這不行咧有潛力可循啊 怎麼會自然來行咧民進黨政府是什麼 一代不如一代嗎現在還這樣對不起人民 還砍人民的錢砍的是社福 砍的是教育砍的是基礎建設 你們到底有沒有良心啊你們把人民放在心上嗎"},{"start":18375.322,"end":18392.493,"text":"一個是能力問題以前能夠做現在為什麼不能做第二更重要你有沒有心啊你不就是要幫人民服務的嗎怎麼去砍人民最直接的預算呢那很多是中低收入戶是長輩是小孩窮也去幫窮在教育啊你當主計長你不就是要負責把優先順序定好對不對就去砍那個最不該砍的你心裡有人民嗎"},{"start":18407.02,"end":18408.14,"text":"當初立法院為什麼做這個決議"},{"start":18435.285,"end":18457.091,"text":"因為你的預算膨脹得太快今年都是創歷史新高而且一下子本來增加將近四千億耶你們本來編的是三兆一千多耶而且裡面一堆浪費浪費跟補償浪費跟補償甚至B&I租業訂來輕重緩急我問你是你們在編預算之前你在主計單位這麼久你們在看審計部的決算嗎你有沒有在看審計部的決算書有有嘛"},{"start":18463.51,"end":18489.647,"text":"每一年審計部的結算書有指出多少浪費跟不當的你不會拿來參考唷你要調636當然這個裡面不當跟浪費的一定比你現在講的地方的補助款更要砍嘛你不是輕重罰金哪個輕哪個重哪個急哪個緩你怎麼去砍地方的基礎建設社福跟教育呢來我來跟你討論你去翻一翻那個審計部的結算書"},{"start":18493.003,"end":18513.743,"text":"國發基金不只是唬爛一堆批案光是投資聯合再生民進黨的大金屬140億元一個投資案虧損140億元怎麼對得起人民投資一個如心牛仔褲不然能贏嗎"},{"start":18516.089,"end":18540.001,"text":"撇了人民納稅錢 撇了一褲子 你們要看結算書你要先砍這一種啊 你怎麼會砍人民的錢呢報告委員 國發基金它是附屬單位預算 它不是總預算我們這邊進去嘛 也是民脂民膏嘛 對不對不是 國發基金是腳褲的一個部分 然後我再給你看 你都翻結算書嘛裡面看到哪些是不當的錢嘛 浪費的錢嘛就剛剛講國發基金的投資浪費 人民民脂民膏之外"},{"start":18545.083,"end":18553.327,"text":"真的太讓人家生氣了我前面跟你講的前瞻運算一個前陣漁港要五毛給一千塊韓國瑜當高雄市長說要前陣漁港補助三千個一毛錢都不給陳吉茂上來可以給八十一億你中央怎麼會沒錢你中央錢多得有些些喔"},{"start":18574.537,"end":18579.599,"text":"都是圖利你們民進黨的利誘有圖利民進黨政府嘛為什麼不給一般的民眾呢最近說沒錢內政部要搞什麼改路改什麼中正路還說沒錢中央給你錢內政部不要改不就錢就省下來了嗎是不是你告訴我他憑什麼現在吃飽多餓是不是"},{"start":18601.65,"end":18613.496,"text":"那麼多重要的事情不做,你還講說地方沒錢,你改入名,中央給你錢,去把那個錢扣回來啊搞什麼大罷免,至少發十二億,這不是名子名高嗎?結算書裡面還檢討過一個很重要的,是嗎?整個中央政府的基金跟財團法人,腐爛!"},{"start":18628.151,"end":18654.43,"text":"領了一堆人民的納稅錢又不好好做事情我正在跟你講啊中央稀產會納稅我們人民的納稅錢至少納稅五億多超市雞蛋買了雞蛋進來還沒進倉庫就壞掉了後來又銷毀發我們人民納稅錢五億多這個中央稀產會董事長本來是無幾值欸您從前他下台以後他可以一年領三百萬請去看一看"},{"start":18658.782,"end":18684.447,"text":"審計部的結算書或者超時雞蛋的這個弊案中央續產會中央政府有多少的財團法人多少基金那天我就在說他們憑什麼領了薪水比你多因為中央續產會當署訂了三百萬來配車身體檢討嘛你六百三十六億我都已經說過了幾百億了國發基金的投資浪費前瞻預算裡面的這個浪費"},{"start":18686.856,"end":18708.85,"text":"剛剛講的改入名這個浪費整個中央的這個基金財團法人的改革你改革這個有掌聲啊人家不只不罵你還要感謝你你做改革然後去砍人家最重要的事情他都是附屬單位預算不是總預算對啊他的錢就從你這邊進來嘛你為什麼不會去省不會去改革因為一般附屬單位預算你剛才說內政部聽到後面的來 署長你專家你聽我說"},{"start":18712.503,"end":18733.365,"text":"第一個 剛講的內政部那個是不是這個錢等一下我還要跟你講還有咧事務發布拿了人民納稅錢去租那個台北市最貴的星光大樓 地厚這已經減少多久了我以前當記者的時候印象還很深刻啊政府花了多少錢浪費去租了很好的辦公室那時候的省記長"},{"start":18735.587,"end":18760.507,"text":"蘇振平站在這位王建憲坐在外面問他他說這個問題這麼嚴重 讓我們人民納稅警去蘇辦公室蘇振平說你給我一年時間我去處理 不行我切腹自殺以前的政務官是這樣幹的啦你看以前的省紀長 處紀長是這樣幫人民看著你每一分荷包 每一分錢 做改革嘛現在你們擔當到哪裡去了我剛剛講的這是不是都是該改的"},{"start":18761.707,"end":18780.822,"text":"不管是本來從中央政府的錢要出去 或者是你從副主的這個機構你錢還是從人民的錢進去啊你要找636億 很容易找 回去翻審計部的結算書好不好好 更重要的 更重要的 我現在幫你找到錢了喔我今天已經跟你講了 從以前2002年有心理 陳水扁可以處理"},{"start":18786.407,"end":18810.335,"text":"張進雄可以處理 現在的賴清德跟中瀾跟新任的主席長 陳主席長 你們就要有辦法處理有利可行 不要講自然來行第二個 我今天連錢都跟你講了 我連朋友都跟你講了都在閒 審計部的結算書還有很多立法委員找出來的 浪費的 不當的還有一些弊案的 你砍了哲平才會感謝你嘛結果現在不是 現在嚴重在什麼地方你現在砍了你怎麼 你默著良心講 自規定"},{"start":18812.912,"end":18833.653,"text":"你本來應該去做改革 沒有結果你在砍的都是人民最重要的事情第一個你怎麼會想到砍社福預算你如果還在台南你怎麼去面對你去跟你的台南市的市民講說我的社福預算中低收入戶你的錢不要我要把你砍掉了老人家的錢小孩的錢教育的錢你要砍掉你怎麼去面對民眾"},{"start":18835.558,"end":18857.43,"text":"而且更重要的當初立法院在審這個預算來 我給你看一下來 主席你給你看一下你對著你眼睛看到可能可以砍地方的補助款上一頁上一頁我們當初立法院刪減的是什麼中央政府及所屬啊你對著你眼睛看到有地方補助款明明砍的都是中央政府機關跟所屬啊"},{"start":18865.523,"end":18892.14,"text":"你是不要理喔 還是丟在了這不是嚴重違法嗎現在還把責任甩鍋給立法院大家都知道你們行政院砍的嘛而且你們砍的跟立法院要求又不一樣而且我們在審的過程裡面地方補助款一毛錢都沒有砍耶好 接下來看裁判法剛剛國常有特別跟你講我們在修這個法的時候就是怕你們衝坑嘛所以我們法律裡面明明定的清清楚楚"},{"start":18893.619,"end":18914.854,"text":"去年就已經三讀通過了餒你現在還在砍另外我問你一個專業的問題現在那麼多縣市的代表都在這邊你們什麼時候給他們地方補助款的一般補助款你什麼時候跟他講的你什麼時候合訂的七年八月對不對"},{"start":18916.317,"end":18944.97,"text":"去年8月你把補助款核定給人家包括嘉義市 新北市 台北市 彰化每個地方把它當成稅入對不對稅入還送到各個議會去審議員都通過了你現在可以砍喔所以你三大違法第一跟立法院的規定審三讀的時候也不一樣第二個違反財務法第三個你違反你當初跟整個地方政府約定的是不是這樣三大違法你砍的又是三大最不能砍的"},{"start":18946.923,"end":18974.165,"text":"社福 基礎建設 教育好啦 最後說個結論台灣民眾黨今天態度非常堅決喔因為人民的反應很熱烈各個縣市政府也要求馬上要把地方這個額度要補足今天我們已經提出提案了要求行政院你要遵守我們當初我們要求要通山的 自行調整的是在中央各機關及所屬所編的預算裡面去調整不能夠去動到地方的"},{"start":18975.031,"end":18997.597,"text":"那你現在砍了 請立即補足而還給地方你太客氣了 台積一年的預算才203億 砍了17.3億 他要做什麼啊而且都跟這邊有關的 都要補足好不好主席拜託我要要求一下喔 今天一定要處理我們民眾黨 絕對要求今天要處理喔今天不要以為民進黨來耍流氓喔 背個碗以後就沒有處理"},{"start":18999.624,"end":19013.433,"text":"行政已經無法無天 違法亂紀了 更不允許民進黨立委在這邊亂今天一定要處理民眾黨的提案 趕快把組合的地方補助款拖補給各個縣市政府 謝謝好 謝謝張委員好 下一位質詢請陳玉珍 陳委員"},{"start":19031.502,"end":19054.38,"text":"主席我要請這個主計長 陳主計長還有法務部法治司的洪司長還有這個立法院預算中心的陳主任法治司有來嗎 陳主任還有我們金門縣的這個代表我們卓科長金門縣代表卓科長好"},{"start":19061.214,"end":19088.525,"text":"這個我們一位一位問那問到哪一位的時候我們請上來直接回答好這個因為今天大家在討論的都是說這個刪減636億是不是可以刪減的有沒有違法刪減這是法律問題就是說在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪而且是法定的預算那民進黨說因為刪了這些預算所以就是往地方政府刪是可以的是你們可以決定的空間就你們可以決定要刪哪些"},{"start":19089.145,"end":19093.779,"text":"是你們的處分空間所以真諜點是在這裡我們先來看一下什麼叫法定預算"},{"start":19096.676,"end":19119.549,"text":"法務部的法務部的等一下我要請教您這個法律司長有來嘛然後我們看這個法定預算是什麼意思依照預算法的規定我國會計年度於每年1月1日開始到同年12月30日終了那當年度中華民國紀元當這個名稱然後會計年度開始四個月前行政要會將會編的中央政府總預算及附屬單位預算及重計表提送立法院審議預算"},{"start":19121.94,"end":19126.283,"text":"預算案經完成立法程序後由總統公佈之即位法定預算你看114份審預算流程我們來回顧一下我們是1月21號三讀通過總預算對不對那是不是3月12號你們復議嘛否決嘛被立法院否決3月21號請問這個總統有沒有公告"},{"start":19151.721,"end":19162.191,"text":"有沒有公告 中央政府總要經過總統府公告嘛好 我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎總統府到底公告了什麼我下面這個內容是總統府的這個公告內容這是 您看看對不對這是總統府的這個華總醫"},{"start":19167.916,"end":19175.003,"text":"這個總統府公告的內容喔他針對直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款內容兩千五百零一億一千兩百七十九萬元造劣這個是錯誤的嗎你看我講的這個是對不對這是總統府公告的內容"},{"start":19192.041,"end":19218.015,"text":"是不是總統府公告的內容是 但是他也是公告要來 你先聽我講 我先問一下所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了總統通過的公告你可以改等一下 我先問你一下你說如果總統府公告就是法定預算所以行政院可不可以改總統府這個是一個依法 就包括法律啊預算通過就是一個法律這個可以改嗎來 那個法務部"},{"start":19220.636,"end":19224.859,"text":"法律師 法治師這個總統府如果公告一個法律舉例不管正式預算當然還有法律比如說我們說詐騙這個最重要判五年那這個行政院 五年太少了我們立法院通過了"},{"start":19243.332,"end":19261.568,"text":"也公佈了 總統府也公佈了復譽 他們又復譽總統府 行政說五年太少要十年要復譽我們都不同意 我們說就是五年那後來後 行政機關就法務部執行的時候 檢察官求行的時候司法院的法官判的時候就說不行 就是按照十年開始判假設最低刑啦"},{"start":19262.228,"end":19288.662,"text":"您了解我在說什麼嗎就是總統府公佈的這個預算行政機關有權利去改更動內容嗎這個字是總統府公佈的喔這個剛我已經跟那個這個主計長確認過這是總統府公佈的這個內容有照列喔因為我們有我們審預算並不是呼嚨的審一堆喔我們是每一款包括什麼條本軍公交待遇99億啦齁災害準備金50億照列啦第二準備金多少照列啦齁對不對這個都是審過的喔"},{"start":19293.206,"end":19310.346,"text":"主計是 你這樣是在 主計處你是在打臉戴總統嗎我再跟委員報告一下 因為這裡面他其餘還有一個就是說通案刪減的那個不低於939那是通案刪減嘛 沒錯 但是通案刪減這個一刪減其他一定都會變動"},{"start":19313.71,"end":19333.488,"text":"來 通安生意前面有一句話如法定預算外 然後接著還有中央剛剛很多委員都講過 不用重複就是還說是刪的要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬地方政府不算你們的這個所屬因為地方政府你們要給地方的錢是法定預算我只是想了解我的意思說以後立法院審預算有沒有效力啊"},{"start":19334.068,"end":19354.885,"text":"我們每一條都說要給你們多少有沒有照列啊有沒有這個預算是多少啊是25億啊是多少億啊像這一條明細表啊都有嘛那你們回去你們可以自己改喔連總統公布都可以改喔我想問那個我先問你我剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎不是我們這個也是一個院會的一個審議結果我們也是照這個法制司法制司司長 紅司長"},{"start":19363.345,"end":19391.705,"text":"所以總統府公布的東西照列的預算書也可以任意調整或是所有預算書都可以任意調整會長請教一下按照法律謝謝委員法務部法制司這邊的回應是這樣就是說針對這個預算案如果經過審議的話它當然具有拘束的效力但是我剛才聽那個主計長的說法是說除了剛剛講的那個部分之外它有一個並同的決議就是有關於統三的部分"},{"start":19392.245,"end":19419.62,"text":"那當然他是依照那個相應的辦法來做一個所謂著語刪減的部分那當然這個法務部必須要講他們不論是依照地制法或者是財化法這都不是法務部主管的法令那是屬於內政部跟財政部主管內政部還不好 內政部上來不好意思來我再請教內政部吳次長內政部來我再請教一下那個主計處長"},{"start":19423.24,"end":19448.326,"text":"陳處長,這個一般性補助金額研究,剛剛張委員講過,這個我不再講,這個是行政院國家配額精神我想問你們行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案依法律義務支出的這個依法律義務支出的臨時表,主計總署你們在送出這個總預算的時候,這些書表有沒有附給我們這些東西"},{"start":19449.124,"end":19463.282,"text":"我們有送啦有沒有送有你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來有送嘛對不對好 你看一下你的送的表裡頭你的明細表裡頭就下一頁有沒有寫你要給地方政府補助多少特別列出114年度預算中共需2501.13億有沒有"},{"start":19467.271,"end":19480.609,"text":"這個表是不是正確的是就是你們送來給你們送來給我們立法院審的時候有送這個表有告訴我們說你們要給地方政府補助兩千五百按照地方制度法地方制度法就內政部剛剛我們法制法"},{"start":19482.071,"end":19499.771,"text":"法治司法治司說的這個就聽到預算法的規定編了一般性補助款是2,501億這是也是行政院送來給立法院的這個要審的這個表格支出明細然後我們審完以後我們說這個部分我們照列我們不刪我們照列"},{"start":19502.674,"end":19524.421,"text":"我們不刪我們不刪以後我們送回去給行政院行政院再送去給總統這個部分公告公告完總統會公告說照列地方這個補助款不刪那所以以後總統公布的東西他說照列那如果這一項可以每一項都可以都可以隨行政院的自己覺得這個夠那個不夠那以後還要審預算嗎"},{"start":19525.501,"end":19541.186,"text":"以後就讓你們自己自己這個我一公告完了因為我們說要通案刪減的是其他的部分是中央政府繼續所屬機關啊你們要在那個部分來我們針對要刪減636是表示有困難嘛來我先講所以有困難的部落我們是表示真的有困難所以這個部落最後沒有辦法部的部才刪減一般一樣的部來法務部"},{"start":19552.45,"end":19581.195,"text":"我那個昨天我看那個搶超商跟我講他生活上有困難這樣有沒有犯法有困難啊昨天有人在路上搶超商說我家裡就沒有辦法家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃我一定要去搶超商要搶兩個飯糰有沒有違法違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責對嘛有沒有困難是一回事嘛你要不要依法做嘛那法律有沒有存在的意義嘛對不對我們立法院通過是中央各機關機所屬啊"},{"start":19582.698,"end":19591.327,"text":"那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼"},{"start":19598.831,"end":19612.237,"text":"他當然就看違反的情況是不是有任何的行政法或是相當刑事上有什麼效果?賭職嗎?是不是構成犯罪的話必須要有犯罪過程條件那沒有違反是不是有這樣的風險啊?法律風險有吧?"},{"start":19614.369,"end":19628.365,"text":"公務員如果沒有依法行政那我舉一個例子好了最近那個沸沸揚揚的那個台北市什麼都更案我看到那些公務員被教訓問教訓問以後我想請問啦我想一般百姓也想了解被教訓問以後他說這個開會的時候都是這個長官的意思如果長官違法"},{"start":19632.27,"end":19651.512,"text":"只是這個意思沒有依法指示如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話我不是指這個案子如果在這個情況下長官違法不按照法律做我們講誇張一點長官叫你去偷錢好了這當然沒那麼誇張但是意思長官違法很明確的說違法不按照這個做工人有沒有責任啊聽話的工人有沒有責任"},{"start":19653.335,"end":19662.507,"text":"應該這樣講在刑罰21條的時候依法令之行為不罰但是在但書裡頭如果說長官的命令違法者不在此限意思就是說"},{"start":19664.614,"end":19685.405,"text":"常任文官的是一個相對服從義務也就是說針對長官的違法命令的話他沒有辦法主張免責他沒有主張免責嘛所以今天我是要請各位這邊在座的都是公務人員這個總統公布的這個法令法令應該是有效益的吧這個法務部總統公布的東西有沒有效啊"},{"start":19687.213,"end":19711.426,"text":"只要經過三讀審議 總統公佈後 施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力對嘛 也可以不遵守 也可以自己改是不是應該不是 我剛才聽這個主計處這邊的說法是說主計總署的說法是按照地方制度法所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢地方制度法 來 內政部對不起 主席我給你一點時間"},{"start":19713.106,"end":19719.729,"text":"所以地方支柱還有說如果總統公布說這個要給2500億但是那個主計數覺得不夠他可以改成1000億可以嗎有這一條是吧跟委員報告其實地方支柱69條只有說針對地方的財政不一要均衡發展所以我們會對財力較差的部分是應酌於補助啦對嘛這是你們可以補助這個是財洋這個跟那個主力總村那個不一樣啦"},{"start":19738.376,"end":19763.426,"text":"跟主席總署那沒關係嘛不是不是 主席總署那個是他公告的部分就是說立法院沒有決議說要還要再自行扣折是是是 但不管立法院怎麼決議最後以後總統最後一關是總統嘛總統公告了嘛所以剛剛說他是按照地方制度不是按照地方制度法因為跟這個不相干嘛跟地方制度法不相干嘛地方制度法只是說針對地方的一個餘補助而已跟通過的法律通過的預算多少這個是不相干嘛不是地方制度法適用嘛 對吧"},{"start":19764.746,"end":19779.931,"text":"改總統府的總統府公告總統公告預算跟地方治法有沒有關係應該沒有改總統府的公告的內容沒有改嗎你再確認一下你問有沒有改主席長你再上來一下看我寫的這是我隨便汙名的還是說真的有這張是真的嗎總統府華總一金字第1140026191號這個公告"},{"start":19785.393,"end":19796.48,"text":"第26款 第一項直轄市及縣政府一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列有沒有這句話 總統有沒有公布這句話有公告 但是有公告說我們要減636所以其他的都會檢討然後我們是檢討第一項才會動到所以總統公告是給你們參考用"},{"start":19806.92,"end":19833.315,"text":"總統公告還要我們減636億這也是在公告裡面的範圍哪一句那你把那句話找出來總統公告說總統公告我要總統公告的好那我來再你先找那我先問一下你提供給我來那我先問一下主計長您剛剛說因為很辛苦其實我理解你們很辛苦就是說在這個整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多很多所以你們做不下去只好往地方下手因為很困難這是你剛說的說法沒錯吧"},{"start":19835.899,"end":19865.055,"text":"我們就是三減了兩千零七十六億嘛對 兩千零七十六億來我們來看 兩千零七十六億其中一千億是給台電的這跟這個沒關係 你知道吧然後所以你們就是減了地方的補儲款六百三十六億對不對然後你們的中央公會最後其他的一千多億就一零七六 你們去減地方然後你們自己減了四百四十億對不對如果以現在的結果四百四十億他是指定項目三減所以對業務的推動有極大的困難是是來 所以"},{"start":19865.555,"end":19879.983,"text":"沒關係啦 我知道 你有困擾我知道我一說我講的這個數字是正確的吧沒有錯吧 台電1000億 中央部會減了440個縣市減了 全部的部份減了636那你們一年的預算是3兆你們減440我算過是1.5%你們說這個3很多 沒有空間"},{"start":19883.965,"end":19888.07,"text":"那地方政府是2500補助的是250億你們刪減636億是27%你減1.5%你就哭到不行了還要往下去砍你給地方減27%你就要叫地方去跳樓吧"},{"start":19897.728,"end":19915.676,"text":"你 你知道我的意思嗎 你知道我的意思嗎你減1.5%就已經挨被靠物了啊地方你給他減27% 你叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺啊636億佔稅出 地方稅出只有3 佔多少幾%3.9而已3.9 對 好啦 就他 只有佔3%對 OK 你們佔1點 你們點 你們是1.3你們1.5你們就受不了 啊他3.9是兩倍他受得了喔"},{"start":19926.019,"end":19952.159,"text":"你聽我的意思嗎所以你撿的比地方還少沒關係啦 我現在只是想跟你講如果你沒有困難 我們其實也是支持你就是照那個程序去補追加 已經執行到五月六月了知道哪些地方做得好 哪些地方做得不好你就追加過來做得好的繼續 可能要多一點做不好就不要再做 還要節省不是去把地方政府當作漏票"},{"start":19953.18,"end":19973.331,"text":"你了解我意思嗎?擄人勒索真的是給人家這種感覺啦所以這個部分你還是要回去好好思考而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統啊你畢竟是他派的組織長啊你也跟他共事這麼久嘛一路跟你提拔上來你竟然修改他公告過的這個預算表這個是很不應該啦而且是違法"},{"start":19974.071,"end":19988.237,"text":"我想這個可能還有法律問題啊好嗎 也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法嘛對不對 長官到時候違法下面如果跟著違法下面是有罪的不是沒有 沒有罪的沒有罪 有責任的好嗎好嗎理解嗎不是 我們這個是沒有違法的啦你沒有違法 好好 沒關係啊這個很多學者都說有違法 只是你說沒有法反正今天也要疏遠了好 謝謝"},{"start":20003.811,"end":20016.689,"text":"謝謝陳委員也請竹記長那個從善如流回去好好思考一下謝謝消費質詢請葉元之葉委員"},{"start":20031.547,"end":20057.822,"text":"我先來問一下那個新北市政府先了解一下地方狀況好 請問新北市秘書長秘書長現在換人換誰主計處長吳建國我換主計處長主委長請問一下現在新北市被砍30.4新北市被中央砍了30.4億的一般性補助款這對新北市影響大不大 應該很大吧"},{"start":20058.7,"end":20078.609,"text":"我們現在目前估算的一般性補助款現在被刪減了30.4億元包括我們的什麼會影響到哪一些包括社會福利還有我們一些低收的比如營養午餐老人津貼包括身心障礙的 低收入戶還有一些弱勢兒童因為中央不給這個減少了30.4億這些都拿不到對不對"},{"start":20083.651,"end":20098.644,"text":"會有影響會有影響喔那主席想問一個問題喔因為中央那個新北市主席也可以上來啦等一下要問因為那個中央我先問那個新北市中央現在是這樣子他想做的他就補助嘛他不想做就砍你嘛"},{"start":20099.639,"end":20122.657,"text":"譬如說他希望中正路改名所以他就要補助新北市的中正路改名這個錢他就有了但是要補助你們因為一般性補助款是中央指定補助項目透過新北市然後去協助這些中低收入或教育社福或警察廳社這些他覺得這個錢可以砍但中正路改名一定要做我請教一下新北市政府的態度"},{"start":20123.157,"end":20139.134,"text":"就新北市政府而言大張旗鼓地去改中正路、介受路不管是改路名也好或改這些機關名稱對新北市來說比較重要你們會放在優先順序會放在前面還是你覺得社福教育跟警察聽社你會放在前面是哪一個"},{"start":20140.289,"end":20157.104,"text":"我想這個改名這部分不是我這邊的業務啦因為你現在是新北市政府代表嘛對 但是就一些弱勢族群的一些經費的部分的話如果是你們來講的話 如果中央給你一筆錢你會把它給教育社福優先 還是你會拿去改名"},{"start":20159.066,"end":20186.196,"text":"那個弱勢族群是很重要的好謝謝新北市政府我請教一下主席長主席長那個我們現在行政院一直推給說地方一般性補助款被砍是因為藍白山預算嘛你們都是這樣講我請教一下你們當初總預算編了2501億一般性補助款這一檔有三億毛錢嗎 有沒有"},{"start":20188.264,"end":20215.138,"text":"這個部分是在審查的時候是沒有但是花了3.636億我等一下跟你討論我只是問有沒有刪這個項目沒有嘛沒有刪這個項目所以在野黨沒有要求刪這個項目我覺得這件事情大家先講清楚啦第二至於說為什麼行政院現在要去砍一般性補助款這600多億你也講很多次了啦你的理由是說因為你們被要求在九個項目裡面要通刪到900多億嘛"},{"start":20216.519,"end":20237.913,"text":"然後這11個項目但是裡面有指定的有300多億剩下有600多億你實在是找不到地方刪了所以你才去刪這一般性補助款嘛你的理由是這樣嘛對不對因為我們是刪減有困難好 刪減有困難嘛我想請教一下當初立法院通刪這11個項目裡面有沒有一般性補助款有沒有"},{"start":20240.066,"end":20268.758,"text":"不是他是刪項目然後他說他是說在這11個項目裡面通刪嘛可是那11個項目裡面有沒有一般性補助款有沒有嘛他是說不夠要另外補足所以那11個項目裡面你一毛都刪不掉然後你另外從那11個項目裡面外面去找一個一般性補助款他說不夠要補助那我請教一下剛剛地方政府也表達啦你們現在中央其實很多錢"},{"start":20270.638,"end":20298.73,"text":"優先順序你們可以做調整嘛譬如說這600多億你可以去找輕重緩急去找啊有一些去年度執行率沒有那麼好的啊有一些沒有很急著做的啊有一些是可能刪掉對人民影響不大的你先去刪啊結果你不是你去刪了一個地方非常重要的項目社福教育所以在中央的角度裡面社福教育還不如中正路改名重要啊我覺得真的很離譜耶對你們而言搞意識形態"},{"start":20299.89,"end":20305.569,"text":"比地方的社福教育、警察、消防、聽社還要重要耶"},{"start":20306.719,"end":20333.657,"text":"績字也可以順序調整啦所以我覺得這個就是這樣政治就是做資源分配啦行政院你要刪六百多億你可以從全國這麼多的事務裡面去刪其他的中正入改名你覺得一定要做意識形態你覺得一定要搞還有什麼特別費什麼的出國旅費那些你都動不了但是地方的教育社福砍了沒關係這就是你民進黨政府現在施政底下的優先順序"},{"start":20336.88,"end":20351.572,"text":"我覺得基層的民眾看到這樣子會覺得很寒心然後再來啊卓恩泰院長講說沒關係啊反正地方政府也可以把稅計剩餘拿出來編來做這個事啊你知道以新北市來講他去年稅計剩餘多少你知道嗎"},{"start":20353.086,"end":20371.782,"text":"不知道齁 21億啦 我直接告訴你啦那 稅季剩餘是去年吧 對吧通常如果去年有稅季剩餘但是之前有累虧的話是不是也要把這個稅季剩餘拿去還債 是不是那你知不知道新北市政府從蘇貞昌當縣長以來舉債到現在累虧是多少 你知道嗎"},{"start":20374.574,"end":20389.605,"text":"累虧887億所以他在有累虧887億的情況之下去年有剩餘你叫人家把剩餘拿出來補你亂砍的一般性補助款這樣合理嗎主計長在你們的會計做法可以這樣做嗎可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":20390.939,"end":20419.179,"text":"原則上是盡量盡量沒有盡量這種東西我問你可不可以這樣做啦人家有累虧800多億然後去年稅率剩餘21億可不可以直接拿來不還債直接拿來花可不可以原則上是我們是希望說能夠盡量來調整那如果不行我們行政院會來協助所以你們卓榮泰就亂講嘛因為去年有稅率剩餘所以就那他都沒有他都不知道人家有累虧喔"},{"start":20421.345,"end":20443.375,"text":"所以整個政府都是在劃數全部都在劃數我雖然我們政府正在本於人民的需求在施政好不好你去看一下各地方政府有沒有很需要這筆一般性補助款嘛如果有需要就要補助給人家嘛中央裡面優先順序嘛像中正路改名像這種每一個都在罵的你去做民意調查啦你去問中正路的上面的居民啦有沒有人想要改啦"},{"start":20444.295,"end":20461.131,"text":"一去改中正路 身份證要換 戶籍等本要換 地籍等本要換然後所有在外面登的所有機構地址全部都要換你去問一下台灣人民有多少人想要改中正路然後這筆錢你硬要留著然後呢 有些很需要的 比如說基層的社福教育這些砍了沒關係"},{"start":20462.933,"end":20486.29,"text":"所以政府怎麼會這樣施政啊政府是做資源分配把錢用在最需要的上面你們砍了最需要的錢結果把那些大家覺得不需要錢硬要保留著只要滿足政府的意識形態可以這樣子喔然後行政院長一跳出來在那邊胡說八道說什麼剩餘的就可以拿來那之前的那個累虧咧不用管喔"},{"start":20487.694,"end":20495.382,"text":"所以今天這個案子啦我希望可以懸崖勒馬啦趕快該給人家的一般性補助款確定就趕快補啦"},{"start":20496.892,"end":20524.227,"text":"所以我們也希望說提出解決的辦法將來立法院能夠提出來但是你一碼歸一碼嘛人家地方錢你要先給人家然後你如果中央你覺得我真的好想改中正路好想改喔那缺多少你提那個追加預算來嘛但是你該給人家錢要先還嘛好不好我覺得要先順序要先定好啦謝謝謝謝葉忍之委員謝謝接著我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":20535.452,"end":20544.838,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們台北市代表現在是財政局局長嗎那另外就是主計長局長好主計長陳主計長"},{"start":20551.158,"end":20576.79,"text":"我先請教我們台北市財政局局長在刪除了台北市的一般補助款之後請問一下台北市的教育經費例如學校的水電費例如親韓學生的營養午餐費有沒有受到影響跟委員報告因為就教育的部分我們被刪了12"},{"start":20579.358,"end":20597.267,"text":"那在這個包括我們親韓學生的午餐費都可能會受到影響那另外老人的福利也受到很多的影響所以我們在內部討論的時候我們的社會局長教育局長都愁眉苦臉不知道要從何下手"},{"start":20599.434,"end":20627.476,"text":"我想請問一下清涵學生大概是多少人呢大概有1.6萬戶就是1.6萬戶清涵學生的營養午餐受到影響然後老人的福利也會受到影響那老人福利主要是在哪一個部分包括老人的乘車補助收容安置長照以及包括我們健保自負額的補助等等都受到影響所以"},{"start":20630.267,"end":20654.344,"text":"按照現在中央這樣一刀砍下去雖然台北市是財政比較好一點因為我所知道像包含宜蘭跟苗栗恐怕都要舉債度日那即便是台北市的話我們其實倒楣的又是我們的孩子跟我們的長者我們過去一直在講就說窮不能窮教育 苦不能苦孩子"},{"start":20654.844,"end":20680.034,"text":"所以這次這樣砍下去對台北市確實包含我們的長者跟我們的孩子學校會受到影響所以我在這邊也應該呼叫一下我們台北市另外兩位立委吳思瑤委員和吳佩奕委員他們支不支持行政院這樣胡砍亂砍的一個方式然後直接影響到我們台北市的孩子們苦了我們尤其是親韓學生的營養午餐讓他們吃不飽"},{"start":20683.675,"end":20701.808,"text":"好 我們這些 如果今天這些大人們吃得飽飽的然後呢 那我們的孩子吃不飽這是不是我們民進黨台北市立委兩位立委 他們認為這是應該的好 那我想 我再請教一下我們主計長主計長那個Paul Pong 準備一下"},{"start":20709.019,"end":20728.997,"text":"這個法定義務法律義務支出明細表這是不是主計處提供的是是主計處提供的對不對那請問在一百一四年度的法律義務支出明細表裡面有沒有對地方的一般補助款有沒有有有金額多少兩件五百零一"},{"start":20732.282,"end":20746.859,"text":"兩千五百零一億 對不對那所以這個項目也是你們這次砍的項目嘛 對不對啊 那奇怪了既然是法律義務支出這個是你提供給立法院的嘛 對不對為什麼提供給立法院為什麼要把這個明信表提供給立法院"},{"start":20754.522,"end":20778.657,"text":"因為告訴我們立法院說這些不能刪嘛對不對就是你送到立法院來審預算的時候我們不能砍這些預算對吧是不是原則上是希望盡量不要刪啦就是不能砍嘛不然什麼叫做法律義務支出呢就是告訴你立法院這些你不要砍你不能砍因為他都有相關的法律依據嘛你會有法律依據嘛對不對"},{"start":20780.201,"end":20797.929,"text":"為什麼立法院不能砍你們行政院可以砍呢因為以往立法院審查還是有刪減的一個案例譬如說國債複洗譬如說拆團法兩維權統治所以你們可以砍你自己說是法律義務之初然後你自己砍"},{"start":20799.298,"end":20814.782,"text":"不是因為我們盡量不要砍但是你不得不的時候你怎麼叫不得不為什麼不得不要去砍到法律因為你要砍636我們的確有問題是這樣子所以有什麼問題呢我們剛才也講請問一下我們刪除了636億裡面有11項這11項裡面有沒有對地方補助有沒有有"},{"start":20826.226,"end":20831.369,"text":"我們砍掉的636億裡面的桶山一共有11項這11項裡面哪一個是對地方補助"},{"start":20834.824,"end":20863.052,"text":"她是沒有但是她是做到另外刪減補足那不是就是在你那個所有統刪的項目裡面去統刪嗎統刪項目沒辦法這樣刪統刪項目沒辦法刪特別費你沒辦法刪對不對請問一下統刪項目裡面有沒有特別費特別費刪了已經上百分之六十了有沒有主管的特別費所以主管特別費沒有刪沒有辦法刪已經上百分之六十了行政院的這些長官的特別費不能刪然後孩子的"},{"start":20864.612,"end":20877.915,"text":"營養這個清涵學生的這個午餐 營養午餐可以刪你就告訴我這個意思嘛蛤 是不是掌酸的特別費不能刪好 那我請問一下我請問一下在這個統山項目裡面有沒有包含公務車的有沒有公務車沒有沒有公務車沒有嗎它是設備及投資啊對啊 相關的設備啊"},{"start":20895.236,"end":20918.89,"text":"相關的支出啊 有沒有他有刪設備及偷支 但是沒有指定說要刪車輛對 但是 包不包含公務車嘛 包不包含嘛應該是包含 好 所以你又告訴我這些行政院高官的公務車不能刪但是呢 親韓學生的營養午餐可以刪因為你告訴我們這些都不能刪嘛合理嗎"},{"start":20922.472,"end":20950.886,"text":"我們已經講過這個統山的項目裡面就是在那十一項啊那十一項裡面沒有對地方的補助款那十一項裡面含有我剛講的包含高官的特資費包含公務車特資費公務車你不能砍你可以砍對地方補助款你可以砍掉對長者不管是敬老老人年金農保的補助或者是"},{"start":20952.467,"end":20959.972,"text":"親韓學生的這些營養午餐你告訴我就是這些啊 合理嗎還不要講什麼中正路咧該刪不刪我問你嘛我問你 主席長主席長我問你當你這樣亂刪的時候刪到親韓學生的營養午餐你覺得你於心何忍"},{"start":20980.575,"end":20996.825,"text":"妳覺得應該嗎如果是我們在處理我們不衛生青函學生的那個午餐啦可是這就是包含他的項目就在這裡面啊對 但是我們可以准結其他不必要的開支啊那請問為什麼你們都不准結其他你們必要的開支呢你們 請問一下我們統生項目裡面有沒有包含媒體宣傳會有沒有媒體宣傳會 百分之六十了還可不可以刪呢"},{"start":21008.513,"end":21013.299,"text":"不能刪 又已經刪了百分之六十了特別會也刪百分之六十了出國會也刪百分之六十了大陸也刪百分之八十了"},{"start":21027.057,"end":21044.545,"text":"高官坐商務艙不能刪高官的坐車不能刪高官的特製費不能刪但是親韓學生的營養午餐可以刪這就是你們今天亂砍地方補助款最後的結果可惡了真的很可惡"},{"start":21045.936,"end":21074.139,"text":"你說要用一些補救措施請你補救措施最應該要做的就是你們先把你們自己先好好重新檢視一下六百多億我不相信在中央將近三兆元裡面你說你六百多億你沒有辦法遵截一定要去看一定要去摳住這些教育費或者社會福利的這些相關費用這個實在是太超過以上"},{"start":21075.578,"end":21076.219,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請主計長"},{"start":21107.521,"end":21125.037,"text":"主席長 您剛剛一直說630.61不能刪了本席想請問您 你有召開相關部會整個過來大家一起協調嗎 有沒有有沒有 不要浪費我時間好 OK 你就詢問幾個 程序完全錯誤"},{"start":21135.014,"end":21154.89,"text":"你玩 你應該 這636億叫做通案刪減你就應該把各部會找來大家討論到底誰哪裡可以挪 哪裡可以挪你沒有 你沒有你這個就是程序不正義 程序錯誤再來你剛剛說你有問幾個 請問你問了幾個"},{"start":21157.694,"end":21187.011,"text":"我有問財政部啦所以你只問財政部所以大家要知道我們真的要請在座的我們各地政府還有我們其他各部會的包含媒體還有我們這個網路的民眾你這個通案刪減應該要召集各部會的你問都沒問就問個財政部好啊那你問都不問表示其實可以刪你沒有刪嘛"},{"start":21188.172,"end":21214.255,"text":"對不對對然後你剛剛你沒有問你就回答所有的立委說喔真的不能再刪了怎麼有這種做事的主席長因為我對您不熟啊我還特別看了一下你是我學姊你在成大兩年我在成大四年所以你這樣做事我真的我覺得很訝異這第一個所以很明顯我們行政單位就是有瑕疵再來第二個"},{"start":21215.851,"end":21231.187,"text":"你地方政府你不該刪的你這樣給他刪減這個剛剛很多委員講了那本席還要追究您的責任因為立法院每年審查運算通案刪減他是常態"},{"start":21232.711,"end":21249.289,"text":"也就是說不管馬英九總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統到蔡英文總統都是如此為什麼過去通案刪減沒有像今年這麼荒謬的情況原因在於通案刪減提出來之後我們要三讀之前"},{"start":21250.41,"end":21268.813,"text":"其實立法院都會通知行政院還有我們特別你們財主單位還有各部會要一起來協調請問去年或者是今年1月就總之就是在我們預算三讀之前你有沒有接到通知"},{"start":21271.153,"end":21291.187,"text":"你有接到通知 你有參加不是喔 我是指各部會來你們所有有各部會有來嗎本席知道的是要協調的時候你們沒有各部會來協調這就是最大的程序瑕疵 程序問題啊"},{"start":21292.248,"end":21319.917,"text":"因為事實上我要跟委員報告我們秘書長也有召開就是針對計劃型補助能不能刪減但是還是大家都沒有辦法刪減所以計劃型補助不是叫做計劃型補助你這個顧卓悠而言她你們你現在要給我跳開了我現在講的是我們在三讀整個通案三檢三讀之前大家都會找來然後好好的協調每一個案怎麼樣三檢怎麼樣三檢"},{"start":21321.215,"end":21346.554,"text":"今年最特別就是你們很多單位沒有參與而且沒有進行這個必要的程序才出現這個問題出現了這個問題之後應該是各部會刪減你們也沒刪減所以才產生現在你們竟然你們是刻意其實是惡意的給地方政府然後然後執政黨一直說是藍白亂刪預算藍白沒有亂刪預算是你們該通案"},{"start":21351.757,"end":21359.56,"text":"協調討論的時候完全沒有協調討論我是問組長我是請我們處長來答覆什麼公務預算處的處長是有看協商會議但是沒有共識協商會議大家有來嗎有但是沒有共識所以問題就出在怎麼樣沒有共識你說嗎那一天的實際的情況你們講"},{"start":21379.479,"end":21394.053,"text":"當時在討論的時候因為三黨的說明當然最後就是沒有結果嘛過去所有的行政單位都會來說明你們那一天所有行政單位有來嗎"},{"start":21395.54,"end":21424.02,"text":"沒有啊因為是第一 前面前面不會請所有的部會都來前面應該是由我們主席總署還有各黨團的那個總召還有幹部先討論到最後怎麼進行後面的協商程序對 應該要進行後面的協商程序但是前面這一步他就已經沒有共識了就後面就沒有召開了那為什麼沒有共識要刪這個為什麼沒有共識你們 那就是你們等於"},{"start":21425.872,"end":21448.2,"text":"不買這個帳嘛不應該啊你們就應該要協調啊所以從頭到尾行政單位該每個部會來協調即便三讀通過以後你們該做的也是這件事沒有做所以千萬不要說藍白亂三一算藍白沒有亂三一算藍白的行為都是合法合理的"},{"start":21449.864,"end":21477.239,"text":"因為沒有經過協商最後就是進到院會去表決然後刪減這樣的數額好 表決 所以我剛剛講嘛表決通過以後你們各部會應該找來協商 沒有協商欸 這個主計長你剛剛回答很多委員你都說沒有辦法你沒有召開大家過來協商你就說沒有辦法你這個在國會這樣隨意亂答我跟你講 你會有責任 我跟你講"},{"start":21480.219,"end":21482.201,"text":"你們根本就是用立場在講話不是協商沒有被採納而是你們沒有接納因為我們就是636億啊所以主席長我真的很遺憾你可能會有責任就這樣"},{"start":21501.042,"end":21522.569,"text":"謝謝許卿委員我補充說明啦因為每一年省總預算我都有參加第二輪的我都有參加今天比較特別是因為在審查的時候柯建民就開始講古他永遠就是這樣以前都不會啊 以前都是照審嘛這是講古 所以後來就變成不了了之了還是要找柯總招了接著我們請許曉欣委員"},{"start":21524.642,"end":21544.309,"text":"許曉欣 許曉欣不在 王美和 王美和用書面蘇清泉委員也是用書面 蘇清衛用書面廖仙祥 廖仙祥 廖仙祥不在 林思明委員用書面陳培瑜 陳培瑜陳培瑜不在 陳冠廷 陳冠廷陳冠廷有書面嗎 陳冠廷用書面"},{"start":21546.713,"end":21574.568,"text":"今日登基發言委員今已詢答完畢本日會議作如下決定說明報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週以內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定委員邱政軍 林思明 蘇清泉 王美惠 陳冠平所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":21575.689,"end":21604.648,"text":"本院台灣民眾黨黨團米聚立即將一般性補助款逐額撥付與地方政府之提案如復見因在場委員不足法定人數我們另外則其審查本次會議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢已並列入記錄並刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好各位縣市政府還有各位各部會的長官辛苦了好我們今天散會謝謝"},{"start":21606.05,"end":21606.35,"text":"今天在..."}]}},{"id":"162249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564053e2a7138f6955cb8fa27110b4cf3b309a32429f6137e878053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:26:18 - 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就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子"},{"start":210.669,"end":231.598,"text":"所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個"},{"start":232.638,"end":258.905,"text":"職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧是的這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人"},{"start":260.005,"end":270.01,"text":"同意就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人"},{"start":277.574,"end":304.253,"text":"訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分對不對是對嘛 他整個是是這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述啦那這些意見陳述事實上這個訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實有還有分不同的部分啦他光光講一個說說這個被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分他可以就證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分"},{"start":305.202,"end":314.886,"text":"他也可以 也要做意見陳述嘛 這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論 辯論科型的事 他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁"},{"start":321.638,"end":346.958,"text":"最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分"},{"start":347.899,"end":353.926,"text":"一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個"},{"start":357.694,"end":384.429,"text":"但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計"},{"start":385.63,"end":403.73,"text":"跟委員報告 就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢 先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人 譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這段話那他的評價是什麼 就是他的用意是什麼"},{"start":404.591,"end":421.32,"text":"就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多非常多這個部分職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導只要讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導這個部分"},{"start":423.441,"end":445.349,"text":"這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性就是在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個"},{"start":448.09,"end":467.549,"text":"所謂的教化可能性,最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性那當然我們就教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有,對不對教化可能性,如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化嘛對不對"},{"start":470.455,"end":493.464,"text":"其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分的教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的"},{"start":495.799,"end":498.442,"text":"這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式"},{"start":511.175,"end":526.723,"text":"那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁"},{"start":528.206,"end":543.247,"text":"這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上我剛剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的"},{"start":544.79,"end":566.205,"text":"在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告他只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明"},{"start":569.327,"end":598.708,"text":"在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引"},{"start":603.804,"end":631.183,"text":"跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對於相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外還有第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準"},{"start":632.123,"end":646.434,"text":"這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度"},{"start":647.615,"end":664.675,"text":"那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條的第7項到第10項的部分後面我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則"},{"start":665.984,"end":681.373,"text":"的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個一百在在一百一十一年十二月院會齁我們"},{"start":682.313,"end":698.953,"text":"院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼"},{"start":699.861,"end":728.529,"text":"好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠"},{"start":729.912,"end":740.503,"text":"我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時26分）主席、各位同仁。今天召委設定這個議題，其實有很多很多問題可以談，有一部分在於，就目前社會民眾的情緒，也有更多部分是專業法律的探討，剛剛我是滿佩服莊瑞雄委員，目前虐童刑度調整的部分，就學術上面有一些不同的考慮，他在這邊提出來。我也覺得這樣子的議題，今天這個主題值得大家好好討論，其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間，才有辦法討論這麼多的議題。我也覺得這個議題其實真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要，怎麼會這種議題在這裡說哪一個黨都有提，哪一個黨都沒有提案、哪一個委員沒有提案，好像扣上說沒有提案就是支持虐童犯、沒有提案就是包庇，這種都沒有必要，像剛才莊瑞雄委員就非常清楚地就學理上面來討論。","除了虐童案刑度的修法，今天另外併案討論的、所列主題其實一個一個的問題都有很多可以討論，包括法官就死刑量刑準則；被害影響陳述，這是第二個議題；包括教化可能性、復歸社會可能性，這又是一個議題、第三個議題；第四個議題，量刑前社會調查；甚至鑑定，又是第五個議題。每一個議題其實都很值得討論，我剩下的時間真的很少，不過我還是在這裡儘量地想跟司法院副秘書長討論一下這些問題。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我剛剛所列出的幾個問題，我一個一個來跟副秘書長討論。有關死刑量刑準則，事實上依照國民法官法第五條，目前如果是要判死刑的案件，事實上都一定有國民法官參審，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是嘛！對。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：113年憲判字第8號提出，判處死刑應經合議庭法官一致決。「合議庭法官一致決」，它指的是……"],["王副秘書長梅英：職業法官，就是沒有包括國民法官。"],["沈委員發惠：不包括國民法官，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以是職業法官裡面。那按照國民法官法，目前第八十三條之一，有罪之認定，要達三分之二以上。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：量刑部分是半數以上就可以，但有罪之認定，要達三分之二以上。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是如果要判處死刑的話，6名國民法官加上3個職業法官，總共9個人，9個人裡面要判處死刑是……"],["王副秘書長梅英：3加3。"],["沈委員發惠：3加3嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：對！"],["沈委員發惠：就是要6……"],["王副秘書長梅英：至少要3加3。"],["沈委員發惠：至少要6票以上同意，就是9席裡面要6票以上同意，但是這6票裡面，3個職業法官必須一致同意，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以不是這個憲判出來之後，一定要9個人全部一致同意才可以判死刑，不是吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我想應該在這裡先釐清。所以也就是說，目前這個制度、113年憲判第8號並不是說要全部的，包括國民法官和職業法官加起來全部統統一致決才可以判死刑，不是！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：9個人裡面有6個人同意就可以判死刑了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這個我想要在這裡先說明。","今天所要討論的第二個問題是有關被害影響陳述的問題。事實上被害影響陳述是訴訟參與人意見陳述裡面的一個部分，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：對嘛！它整個是訴訟參與人的意見陳述。在訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面，其實還分成不同的部分，不是光講一個被害影響陳述，而是還有證據調查的部分，證據調查就可以做意見陳述，這是第一個；第二個是有關被害情感的部分，他也要做意見陳述，這是第二種意見陳述……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：第三個是有關科刑的辯論……"],["王副秘書長梅英：科刑範圍……"],["沈委員發惠：辯論科刑的時候又有第三個意見陳述的機會。","最主要是說，實務上常常在證據調查過程中就夾雜情緒性和主觀性的意見，雖然我們剛剛說學理上有這三種意見陳述，但事實上國民法官沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述、被害感情的意見陳述，還是科刑辯論的意見陳述，一般的國民法官沒有辦法區分現在的意見陳述到底是屬於哪一種。但是如果沒有妥善區分或真正區分這三種不同的意見陳述，事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響。請問司法院現在有沒有針對訴訟參與人意見陳述方式設計一個明確的引導規範和實務的指引，來確保國民法官在審判過程中對這些不同意見陳述的認知，以及它的秩序跟它的正當性？你們有沒有這樣的設計？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，在國民法官案件實際審理的時候，每一個程序階段的先前跟之後，審判長都會告訴這些國民法官這個人，譬如這個被害人現在講的這段話，他的評價是什麼，就是他的用意是什麼，也就是它的休息時間會比一般職業法官審理的案件要來得多。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分職業法官必須有相當程度的說明和引導，才能讓國民法官理解目前這些陳述到底是屬於證據的陳述、被害情感的陳述，還是量刑的陳述，這些都要引導啦！這個部分是有關被害影響陳述的部分。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：今天的第三個議題是有關教化可能性和復歸社會可能性，這也是列在今天議程上面的議題。所謂的教化可能性在法學上面一直都頗有爭議，雖然最高法院97年度台上字第5968號判決裡面所確立的教化可能性實務上已經被大量引用，但是卻沒有立法和制度的標準，對不對？如何衡量教化可能性？目前在我國的法制並沒有標準化，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性。"],["沈委員發惠：對，其實社會復歸可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["沈委員發惠：但事實上現在實務上大部分都用「教化可能性」，而且事實上並沒有標準，也就是教化可能性目前沒有一個標準的規範。我們來參考德國和日本，事實上德國和日本是有標準規範的，德國有一個HCR-20，簡單講，德國有一個行為預測的鑑定模式，日本則有一個法定的矯正可能性報告，必須要有這個報告，這些都是德國和日本對復歸社會可能性、教化可能性所建立的標準，而我國目前是沒有的。而且我剛剛所講的德國和日本，他們對教化可能性鑑定制度的拘束力是很強的。在我國，最後的鑑定報告只是供法院參酌使用而已。在德國，無論是否採取鑑定的意見，都必須具體說明理由，我國則不用，我國只是參考而已，法官最後要不要採信這個鑑定報告並不用說明，德國則要說明，包括為什麼鑑定出來是這樣、為什麼採用、為什麼不採用，都必須敘明。日本也是，他們的法官必須向裁判員（國民法官）說明鑑定的意義和適用方式，這在日本是要說明的，我國目前沒有。現在司法院有一個「法官對國民法官之指示參考手冊」，可是我發現裡面並沒有針對這個部分有所規定，司法院是不是可以考慮把我剛剛講的這個部分納入相關的參考指引？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這部分我請廳長來說明。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。跟委員報告一下，對量刑前鑑定的部分，我們現在有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估手冊，對於相關鑑定的內容和操作方式，主要是針對刑法第五十七條第四款、第五款、第六款和第十款……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，但我現在是在講復歸社會可能性和教化可能性的衡量標準……"],["李廳長釱任：這個我們……"],["沈委員發惠：事實上這牽涉到我們今天接下來的立法，大家對於這到底是有教化可能性還是沒有教化可能性、這為什麼不判他死刑，這是同樣的問題，這個部分目前我國沒有法制化和標準化。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我希望能夠建立制度。","因為時間的關係，有關量刑前的社會調查是刑法第五十七條第七款至第十款的部分，後面我本來還有很多學術性的問題想跟你們討論，包括推動量刑準則的建立在司改國是會議裡面是有共識的，而司法院過去也有推動量刑準則，在實踐上做了很多事情，在110年12月的司法院院會也通過刑事案件妥適量刑法草案並函送立法院審議，但是因為屆期不連續，這個案子就沒有了，這一屆你們也沒有再送。這個部分是不是請副秘書長說明一下，有關推動量刑準則的部分，你們接下來的努力方向是什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。這個部分就如同委員所說的，在屆期不連續之後就回到司法院繼續研議，事實上這主要有兩個方向，一個是有關要成立量刑準則委員會，因為在原來的設計當中，它是一個獨立的二級機構，各方對此有不同的意見……"],["沈委員發惠：既然上一屆你們已經把草案送立法院，再研議之後是不是至少能在半年內提出一個書面報告，說明目前研議的成果和未來推動的時程？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，是的。"],["沈委員發惠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","下一位請張智倫委員。張智倫委員、張智倫委員。","接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828dca2be76773bbf0d5e54a9d8358219465c023702ac6ce1c064a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"14:21:57 - 14:28:54","影片長度":"00:06:57","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T14:21:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T14:28:54+08:00","duration":417,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.970968750000001,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.24471875,"end":9.278468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.278468750000002,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.15409375,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.39034375,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.53346875,"end":24.820343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.364093750000002,"end":31.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.85721875,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.52284375,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.83909375,"end":41.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.99909375,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.361593750000004,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.34846875,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.845968750000004,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.98721875000001,"end":64.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.80971875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.13409375,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.49221875,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.14596875000001,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.35659375,"end":83.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.95034375,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.37159375,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":90.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.69596875,"end":94.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.37471875,"end":96.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.41659375,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.22659375,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.90096875,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.96409375,"end":109.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.30909375,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.14846875,"end":118.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.83096875000001,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.07909375000001,"end":125.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.08721875,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.69409375,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.81534375,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.73471875,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.55221875,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.16971875000002,"end":171.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.80159375000002,"end":177.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.84284375000001,"end":183.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.66034375,"end":185.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.01034375,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.99721875,"end":193.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.26659375,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.32971875,"end":206.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.07034375,"end":217.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.67659375000002,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.17409375000003,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.48596875,"end":229.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.48034375,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.85909375000003,"end":255.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.82221875000002,"end":257.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.03284375000004,"end":271.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.67221875,"end":274.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.51159375000003,"end":273.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.57034375,"end":276.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.46034375,"end":280.49346875000003},{"speak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謝謝主席我請我們台北市代表 現在是財政局局長嗎那另外就是主計長"},{"start":20.646,"end":46.284,"text":"委員好我先請教我們台北市財政局局長在刪除了台北市的一般補助款之後請問一下台北市的教育經費例如學校的水電費例如親韓學生的營養午餐費有沒有受到影響跟委員報告因為就教育的部分我們被刪了12"},{"start":48.847,"end":66.748,"text":"那在這個包括我們親韓學生的午餐費都可能會受到影響那另外老人的福利也受到很多的影響所以我們在內部討論的時候我們的社會局長教育局長都愁眉苦臉不知道要從何下手"},{"start":68.922,"end":97.004,"text":"我想請問一下清涵學生大概是多少人呢大概有1.6萬戶就是1.6萬戶的清涵學生的營養午餐受到影響然後老人的福利也會受到影響那老人福利主要是在哪一個部分是在包括老人的乘車補助收容安置長照以及包括我們健保自負額的補助等等都受到影響所以"},{"start":99.755,"end":123.832,"text":"按照現在中央這樣一刀砍下去雖然台北市是財政比較好一點因為我所知道像包含宜蘭跟苗栗恐怕都要舉債度日那即便是台北市的話我們其實倒楣的又是我們的孩子跟我們的長者我們過去一直在講就說窮不能窮教育 苦不能苦孩子"},{"start":124.312,"end":149.021,"text":"所以這次這樣砍下去對台北市確實包含我們的長者跟我們的孩子學校會受到影響所以我在這邊也應該呼叫一下我們台北市另外兩位立委吳思瑤委員和吳佩奕委員他們知不支持行政院這樣胡砍亂砍的一個方式然後直接影響到我們台北市的孩子們苦了我們尤其是親韓學生的營養午餐讓他們吃不飽"},{"start":153.143,"end":171.276,"text":"好 我們這些 如果今天這些大人們吃得飽飽的然後呢 那我們的孩子吃不飽這是不是我們民進黨台北市立委兩位立委 他們認為這是應該的好 那我想 我再請教一下我們主計長主計長那個Paul Poe 你準備一下"},{"start":178.51,"end":198.488,"text":"這個法定義務 法律義務支出明細表這是不是主計處提供的是是主計處提供的 對不對那請問在一百一四年度的法律義務支出明細表裡面有沒有對地方的一般補助款有沒有 有有金額多少兩千五百零一"},{"start":201.77,"end":216.334,"text":"兩千五百零一億 對不對那所以這個項目也是你們這次砍的項目嘛 對不對啊 那奇怪了既然是法律義務支出這個是你提供給立法院的嘛 對不對為什麼提供給立法院為什麼要把這個明信表提供給立法院"},{"start":224.011,"end":248.145,"text":"因為告訴我們立法院說這些不能刪嘛 對不對就是你送到立法院來審預算的時候 我們不能砍這些預算 對吧是不是原則上是希望盡量不要刪啦就是不能砍嘛 不然什麼叫做法律義務支出呢就是告訴你立法院這些你不要砍 你不能砍因為它都有相關的法律依據嘛 你們還有法律依據嘛 對不對"},{"start":249.686,"end":267.417,"text":"為什麼立法院不能砍你們行政院可以砍呢因為以往立法院審查還是有刪減的一個案例譬如說國債複息譬如說拆團法兩維權統治所以你們可以砍你自己說是法律義務之初然後你自己砍"},{"start":268.769,"end":284.253,"text":"不是因為我們盡量不要砍但是你不得不的時候你怎麼叫不得不為什麼不得不要去砍到法律因為你要砍636我們的確有問題是這樣子所以有什麼問題呢我們剛才也講請問一下我們刪除了636億裡面有11項這11項裡面有沒有對地方補助有沒有有"},{"start":295.697,"end":300.869,"text":"我們砍掉的636億裡面的桶山一共有11項這11項裡面哪一個是對地方補助"},{"start":304.295,"end":317.419,"text":"她是沒有 但是她說她另外刪減補足那不是就是在你那個所有統刪的項目裡面去統刪嗎統刪項目沒辦法這樣刪統刪項目沒辦法刪 特別費你沒辦法刪對不對請問一下統刪項目裡面有沒有特別費有沒有主管的特別費所以主管特別費沒有刪 沒有辦法刪"},{"start":326.921,"end":352.242,"text":"好 行政院的這些長官的特別費不能刪然後孩子的營養這個親韓學生的這個午餐 營養午餐可以刪你這告訴我這個意思嗎蛤 是不是長官的特別費不能刪好 那我請問一下我請問一下在這個桶山項目裡面有沒有包含公務車的有沒有公務車沒有"},{"start":356.872,"end":385.493,"text":"公務車沒有嗎它是設備級投資啊對啊 相關的設備啊相關的支出啊有沒有它有刪設備級投資但是沒有指定說要刪車輛對 但是包不包含公務車嘛包不包含嘛應該是包含包含好 所以你又告訴我這些行政院高官的公務車不能刪但是呢 親韓學生的營養午餐可以刪"},{"start":386.892,"end":388.335,"text":"因為你告訴我 你這些都不能刪嘛合理嗎"},{"start":391.96,"end":420.356,"text":"我們已經講過這個桶山的項目裡面就是在那十一項啊那十一項裡面沒有對地方的補助款那十一項裡面含有我剛講的包含高官的特資費包含公務車特資費公務車你不能砍你可以砍對地方補助款你可以砍掉對長者不管是敬老老人年金農保的補助或者是"},{"start":421.955,"end":429.461,"text":"親韓學生的這些營養午餐你告訴我就是這些啊 合理嗎還不要講什麼中正路了誒該生不生我問你嘛我問你 主席長主席長我問你當你這樣亂刪的時候刪到親韓學生的營養午餐你覺得你於心何忍"},{"start":450.063,"end":476.665,"text":"你覺得應該嗎如果是我們在處理我們不衛生青函學生的那個午餐啦可是這就是包含他的項目就在這裡面啊對 但是我們可以准結其他不必要的開支啊那請問為什麼你們都不准結其他你們必要的開支呢你們請問一下我們統生項目裡面有沒有包含媒體宣傳會有沒有媒體宣傳會 已經刪了百分之六十了還可不可以刪呢"},{"start":480.84,"end":495.428,"text":"不能刪 又已經刪了百分之六十了特別會也刪百分之六十了我問你喔 高官是不是很多都是做商務艙啊出國會也刪百分之六十了大陸也刪百分之八十了"},{"start":496.548,"end":514.045,"text":"高官坐商務艙不能刪高官的坐車不能刪高官的特製費不能刪但是親韓學生的營養午餐可以刪這就是你們今天亂砍地方補助款最後的結果可惡了真的很可惡"},{"start":515.424,"end":543.613,"text":"你說要用一些補救措施喔請你補救措施最應該要做的就是你們先把你們自己啊先好好重新檢視一下六百多億我不相信欸在中央將近三兆元裡面你說你六百多億你沒有辦法遵截一定要去砍一定要去摳住這些教育費或者社會福利的這些相關費用這個實在是太超過以上"},{"start":545.026,"end":545.538,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1233,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（14時12分）謝謝主席。請臺北市代表──財政局局長，還有主計長。"],["主席：請臺北市的胡局長、陳主計長。"],["胡局長曉嵐：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我先請教臺北市財政局局長，在刪除了臺北市的一般性補助款之後，請問一下臺北市的教育經費，例如學校的水電費、清寒學生的營養午餐費，有沒有受到影響？"],["胡局長曉嵐：跟委員報告，因為就教育的部分，我們被刪了12億，包括清寒學生的午餐費都可能會受到影響。另外，老人的福利也受到很多影響，所以我們在內部討論的時候，我們的社會局長、教育局長都愁眉苦臉，不知道要從何下手。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，清寒學生大概是多少人？"],["胡局長曉嵐：大概有1.6萬名學生。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是有1.6萬名清寒學生的營養午餐費受到影響，然後老人的福利也會受到影響？"],["胡局長曉嵐：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：老人福利主要是在哪一個部分？"],["胡局長曉嵐：包括老人的乘車補助、收容安置、長照，以及健保自付額的補助等等，都受到影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以按照現在中央這樣一刀砍下去，雖然臺北市是財政比較好一點，但是就我所知道的，像宜蘭跟苗栗，恐怕都要舉債度日，即便是臺北市，其實倒楣的還是我們的孩子跟長者。我們過去一直在講，窮不能窮教育，苦不能苦孩子，所以這次這樣砍下去，對臺北市來說，包含我們的長者、我們的孩子跟學校，確實都會受到影響。","所以我在這邊也應該呼叫一下我們臺北市的另外兩位立委──吳思瑤委員和吳沛憶委員，問他們支不支持行政院這樣胡砍亂砍的方式，直接影響到我們臺北市的孩子們，苦了他們，尤其是清寒學生的營養午餐費，讓他們吃不飽。如果今天這些大人們吃得飽飽的，然後讓我們的孩子吃不飽，民進黨的兩位臺北市立委，他們是不是認為這是應該的？","我再請教一下主計長，這個法律義務支出明細表是不是主計總處提供的？是主計總處提供的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問在114年度的法律義務支出明細表裡面，有沒有對地方的一般性補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，金額多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：2,501億。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個項目也是你們這次砍的項目，對不對？奇怪了，既然是法律義務支出，這個是你提供給立法院的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼提供給立法院？為什麼要把這個明細表提供給立法院？應該是要告訴我們立法院這些不能刪，對不對？就是你們送到立法院來審預算的時候，我們不能砍這些預算，對吧？是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上是希望儘量不要刪，不得不的時候我們也是只好刪。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是不能砍嘛，不然怎麼叫做法律義務支出，就是告訴立法院，這些你不要砍，你不能砍，因為它都有相關的法律依據，你們有法律依據，對不對？為什麼立法院不能砍，你們行政院可以砍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為以往立法院審查還是有刪減的案例，譬如國債付息、財團法人威權統治時期這些。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們可以砍？你們自己說是法律義務支出，然後你們自己砍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們儘量不要砍，但是不得不的時候，我們沒有辦法，只好……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫不得不？為什麼不得不時要去砍到法律義務支出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為你們要砍636億，我們的確會有問題，是這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：有什麼問題呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個金額很龐大，我們要刪減是有它的困難。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們剛才也講了，請問一下，我們刪除的636億裡面有11項，這11項裡面有沒有對地方的補助？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們砍掉的636億裡面，統刪的一共有11項，這11項裡面，哪一個是對地方的補助？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是它是說要另外刪減補助。"],["王委員鴻薇：那不就是在所有統刪的項目裡面去統刪嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：統刪項目沒辦法這樣刪。"],["王委員鴻薇：統刪項目沒辦法刪，特別費你沒辦法刪，對不對？請問一下，統刪項目裡面有沒有特別費？"],["陳主計長淑姿：特別費刪了，已經刪60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有主管的特別費？所以主管的特別費沒有刪，沒有辦法刪？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經刪60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：行政院這些長官的特別費不能刪，然後清寒學生的營養午餐費可以刪，你告訴我的就是這個意思，是不是？長官的特別費不能刪……"],["陳主計長淑姿：包括出國旅費刪60%……"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下，在這個統刪項目裡面，有沒有包含公務車的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：公務車沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：公務車沒有嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是設備及投資。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊，相關的設備，相關的支出啊，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它有刪設備及投資，但是沒有指定說要刪車輛，設備及投資的項目很多。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，但是包不包含公務車？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該是包含，但是有些單位自己決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：包含，好，所以你又告訴我，這些行政院高官的公務車不能刪，但是清寒學生的營養午餐費可以刪，因為你告訴我那些都不能刪，這樣合理嗎？我們已經講過，這個統刪的項目裡面，就是在那11項，那11項裡面沒有對地方的補助款，那11項裡面還有我剛剛講的，包含高官的特支費、公務車。特支費、公務車你不能砍，你可以砍對地方的補助款，你可以砍掉對長者的補助，不管是敬老、老人年金、農保的補助，或者是清寒學生的營養午餐費，你告訴我的就是這些啊！合理嗎？還不要講什麼中正路咧！該刪不刪！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這個部分影響的是歲入而不是歲出……"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長，那我問你……"],["陳主計長淑姿：歲出的刪減是縣市自己決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：當你這樣亂刪的時候，刪到清寒學生的營養午餐，你於心何忍？你覺得應該嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果是我們在處理，我們不會刪清寒學生的午餐啦……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是它的項目就包含在這裡面啊！是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，但是我們可以撙節其他不必要的一些支出來……"],["王委員鴻薇：不必要的開支？請問為什麼你們都不撙節其他不必要的開支呢？請問一下，我們統刪項目裡面有沒有包含媒體宣傳費？有沒有媒體宣傳費？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經刪了60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：還可不可以刪呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：再刪都不要做媒體宣傳了。"],["王委員鴻薇：不能刪！不能刪啦！對不對，不能刪啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為已經刪了60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你在在告訴我們……"],["陳主計長淑姿：特別費也刪了60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：包含這些高官的出國費，我問你，高官是不是很多都是坐商務艙啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：出國費也刪60%了，到大陸的刪80%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：你的人是不是坐商務艙？高官坐商務艙不能刪、高官的座車不能刪、高官的特支費不能刪，但是清寒學生的營養午餐可以刪，這就是你們今天亂砍地方補助款最後的結果，可惡啦！真的很可惡！你說要有一些補救的措施，你最應該要做的補救措施就是先把你們自己好好重新檢視一下，我不相信六百多億欸！在中央將近三兆元裡面，你說六百多億沒有辦法撙節，一定要去砍，一定要扣住這些教育費或者社會福利這些相關費用，這個實在是太超過，以上。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接著我們請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98280adbcd5f863b73bf5e54a9d8358219465c023702ac6ce1c06b39a8e8f8d8ca115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"14:04:10 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14:12:35","影片長度":"00:08:25","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T14:04:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T14:12:35+08:00","duration":505,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.615343750000001,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.07034375,"end":19.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.93096875,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.01096875,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.73659375,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.37346875,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.52096875,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.75284375,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.65971875,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.773468750000003,"end":28.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.309093750000002,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.739093750000002,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.02159375,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.03846875,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.10159375,"end":40.986593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.657843750000005,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.64471875,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.720343750000005,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.48784375,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.938468750000006,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.03096875,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.672218750000006,"end":59.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.73971875,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.697218750000005,"end":57.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.01346875,"end":58.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.80221875,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.852843750000005,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.274718750000005,"end":65.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.18096875,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.19784375,"end":70.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.24346875,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.13784375,"end":77.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.54971875000001,"end":84.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.92909375,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.47534375000001,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.77846875,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.96346875,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.75159375000001,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.68784375000001,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.76784375000001,"end":119.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.79284375,"end":122.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.01596875000001,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.37409375000001,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.03596875,"end":130.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.19159375,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.91721875000002,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.02159375000002,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.84846875,"end":146.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.91096875,"end":147.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.00784375,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.49284375000002,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.42096875000001,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":162.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEA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先了解一下地方狀況好 請問新北市秘書長秘書長現在換人換誰主計處長吳建國換主計處長"},{"start":29.346,"end":40.771,"text":"董事長請問一下現在新北市被砍30.4新北市被中央砍了30.4億的一般性補助款這對新北市影響大不大 應該很大吧"},{"start":41.67,"end":61.581,"text":"我們現在目前估算的一般性補助款現在被刪減了30.4億元包括我們的什麼會影響到哪一些包括社會福利還有我們一些低收的比如營養午餐老人津貼包括身心障礙的高低收入戶還有一些弱勢兒童因為中央不給這個減少了30.4億這些都拿不到對不對"},{"start":66.63,"end":81.632,"text":"會有影響會有影響喔那主席想問一個問題喔因為中央那個新北市主席你可以上來喔等一下要問因為那個中央我先問那個新北市中央現在是這樣子喔他想做的他就補助嘛他不想做就砍你嘛"},{"start":82.608,"end":105.624,"text":"譬如說他希望中正路改名所以他就要補助新北市的中正路改名這個錢他就有了但是要補助你們因為一般性補助款是中央指定補助項目透過新北市然後去協助這些中低收入或教育社福或警察廳社這些他覺得這個錢可以砍但中正路改名一定要做我請教一下新北市政府的態度"},{"start":106.144,"end":122.103,"text":"就新北市政府而言大張旗鼓地去改中正路、介受路不管是改路名也好或改這些機關名稱對新北市來說比較重要你們會放在優先順序會放在前面還是你覺得社福教育跟警察聽社你會放在前面是哪一個"},{"start":123.255,"end":140.096,"text":"我想這個改名這部分不是我這邊的業務啦因為你現在是新北市政府代表嘛對 但是就一些弱勢族群的一些經費的部分的話如果是你們來講的話 如果中央給你一筆錢你會把它給教育社福優先 還是你會拿去改名"},{"start":142.796,"end":169.188,"text":"弱勢族群是很重要的好 謝謝新北市政府我請教一下主席長主席長現在行政院一直推給說地方一般性補助款被砍是因為藍白山預算你們都是這樣講我請教一下你們當初總預算編了2501億一般性補助款這一檔有三億毛錢嗎 有沒有"},{"start":171.25,"end":198.627,"text":"這個部分是在審查的時候是沒有但是沒有好謝謝等一下通山我等一下跟你討論我只是問有沒有刪這個項目沒有沒有嘛沒有刪這個項目所以在野黨沒有要求刪這個項目我覺得這件事情大家先講清楚啦第二至於說為什麼行政院現在要去砍一般性補助款這六百多億你也講很多次了啦你的理由是說因為你們被要求在九個項目裡面要通山到九百多億嘛"},{"start":199.488,"end":220.88,"text":"然後這11個項目但是裡面有指定的有300多億剩下有600多億你實在是找不到地方刪了所以你才去刪這一般性補助款嘛你的理由是這樣嘛對不對因為我們是刪減有困難好 刪減有困難嘛我想請教一下當初立法院通刪這11個項目裡面有沒有一般性補助款有沒有"},{"start":223.052,"end":251.744,"text":"不是 它是刪項目然後它說它是說在這11個項目裡面通刪嘛可是那11個項目裡面有辦法刪嗎那11個項目裡面有沒有一般性補助款有沒有嘛它是說不夠要另外補足所以那11個項目裡面你一毛都刪不掉然後你另外從那11個項目裡面外面去找一個一般性補助款它說不夠要補助那我請教一下剛剛地方政府也表達啦你們現在中央其實很多錢"},{"start":253.624,"end":281.718,"text":"優先順序你們可以做調整嘛譬如說這600多億你可以去找輕重緩急去找啊有一些去年度執行率沒有那麼好的啊有一些沒有很急著做的啊有一些是可能刪掉對人民影響不大的你先去刪啊結果你不是你去刪了一個地方非常重要的項目社福教育所以在中央的角度裡面社福教育還不如中正路改名重要啊我覺得真的很離譜耶對你們而言搞意識形態"},{"start":282.879,"end":288.543,"text":"比地方的社福教育、警察、消防、聽社還要重要耶"},{"start":289.708,"end":317.004,"text":"績字也可以調整啦所以我覺得這個就是這樣政治就是做資源分配啦行政院你要刪六百多億你可以從全國這麼多的事務裡面去刪其他的中正入改名你覺得一定要做意識形態你覺得一定要搞還有什麼特別費什麼的出國旅費那些你都動不了但是地方的教育社福砍了沒關係這就是你民進黨政府現在施政底下的優先順序"},{"start":317.944,"end":334.541,"text":"我覺得基層的民眾 我覺得基層的民眾看到這樣子會覺得很寒心然後再來啊 卓恩泰院長講說欸沒關係啊 反正地方政府也可以把稅計剩餘拿出來編來做這個事啊你知道以新北市來講 他去年稅計剩餘多少你知道嗎"},{"start":336.055,"end":354.771,"text":"不知道 二十一億 我直接告訴你那 稅金剩餘是去年吧 對吧通常如果去年有稅金剩餘 但是之前有累虧的話是不是也要把這個稅金剩餘拿去還債 是不是那你知不知道新北市政府從蘇貞昌當縣長以來舉債到現在累虧是多少 你知道嗎"},{"start":357.56,"end":372.591,"text":"累虧887億所以他在有累虧887億的情況之下去年有剩餘你叫人家把剩餘拿出來補你亂砍的一般性補助款這樣合理嗎主計長在你們的會計做法可以這樣做嗎可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":373.905,"end":402.166,"text":"原則上是盡量盡量沒有盡量這種東西我問你可不可以這樣做啦人家有累虧800多億然後去年稅率剩餘21億可不可以直接拿來不還債直接拿來花可不可以原則上是我們是希望說能夠盡量來調整那如果不行我們行政院會來協助所以你們卓榮泰就亂講嘛因為去年有稅率剩餘所以就那他都沒有他都不知道人家有累虧喔"},{"start":404.315,"end":426.362,"text":"所以整個政府都是在劃數全部都在劃數我希望我們政府正在本於人民的需求在施政好不好你去看一下各地方政府有沒有很需要這筆一般性補助款嘛如果有需要就要補助給人家嘛中央裡面優先順序嘛像中正路改名像這種每一個都在罵的你去做民意調查啦你去問中正路的上面的居民啦有沒有人想要改啦"},{"start":427.262,"end":444.41,"text":"一去改中正路身份證要換戶籍藤本要換地籍藤本要換然後所有在外面登的所有機構地址全部都要換你去問一下台灣人民有多少人想要改中正路然後這筆錢你硬要留著然後有些很需要的比如說基層的社福教育這些砍了沒關係"},{"start":445.925,"end":469.263,"text":"所以政府怎麼會這樣施政啊政府是做資源分配把錢用在最需要的上面你們砍了最需要的錢結果把那些大家覺得不需要錢硬要保留著只要滿足政府的意識形態可以這樣子喔然後行政院長一跳出來在那邊胡說八道說什麼剩餘的就可以拿來那之前的那個累虧咧不用管喔"},{"start":470.663,"end":478.351,"text":"所以今天這個案子啦我希望可以懸崖勒馬啦趕快該給人家的一般性補助款確定就趕快補啦"},{"start":479.878,"end":502.04,"text":"所以我們也希望說提出解決的辦法將來立法院能夠提出來但是你一碼歸一碼嘛人家地方錢你要先給人家然後你如果中央你覺得我真的好想改中正路好想改喔那缺多少你提那個追加預算來嘛但是你該給人家錢要先還嘛好不好我覺得要先順序要先定好啦謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1183,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（14時4分）我先問一下新北市政府，先了解一下地方狀況。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：好，請新北市秘書長。"],["葉委員元之：秘書長。"],["主席：現在換人了，請主計處長吳建國。"],["吳處長建國：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主計處長，請問一下，現在新北市被中央砍了30.4億的一般性補助款，這對新北市影響大不大？應該很大吧！"],["吳處長建國：我們目前估算一般性補助款被刪減了30.4億元，包括我們的……"],["葉委員元之：會影響到哪一些？社福……"],["吳處長建國：包括社會福利還有我們……"],["葉委員元之：一些低收的，比如營養午餐、老人津貼。"],["吳處長建國：對，包括身心障礙、中低收入戶及弱勢兒童。"],["葉委員元之：因為中央減少了30.4億，這些都拿不到，對不對？"],["吳處長建國：會有影響。"],["葉委員元之：會有影響嘛！"],["吳處長建國：對。"],["葉委員元之：主計長，我問你一個問題，因為中央……我先問新北市，中央現在是這樣子，他們想做的就補助，他們不想做的就砍嘛！譬如他們希望中正路改名，所以他們就要補助新北市的中正路改名，這個錢他們就有了，但是要補助你們……因為一般性補助款是中央指定補助項目，透過新北市去協助這些中低收入或教育、社福或警察廳舍這些，他們覺得這個錢可以砍，但中正路改名一定要做。我請教一下新北市政府的態度，就新北市政府而言，大張旗鼓地去改中正路、介壽路，不管是改路名或改這些機關的名稱，對新北市來說比較重要，你們優先順序會放在前面？還是你覺得社福、教育跟警察廳舍會放在前面？是哪一個？"],["吳處長建國：我想改名這部分不是我這邊的業務，但是我覺得……"],["葉委員元之：因為你現在是新北市政府的代表嘛！"],["吳處長建國：對，但是就弱勢族群的一些經費部分……"],["葉委員元之：對你們來講的話，如果中央給你們一筆錢，你們會把它給教育、社福優先，還是會拿去改名？"],["吳處長建國：弱勢族群是很重要的。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝新北市政府。我請教一下主計長，現在行政院一直推說地方一般性補助款被砍是因為藍白刪預算，你們都是這樣講。我請教一下，你們當初總預算編了2,501億一般性補助款，在野黨有刪一毛錢嗎？有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分在審查的時候是沒有，但是……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，好，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：通案刪減636億……"],["葉委員元之：通刪我等一下跟你討論，我只問有沒有刪這個項目？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：沒有嘛！沒有刪這個項目，所以在野黨沒有要求刪這個項目，我覺得這件事情大家要先講清楚。第二，至於為什麼行政院現在要去砍一般性補助款，這六百多億你也講很多次了，你的理由是因為你們被要求在11個項目裡面要通刪九百多億，但是裡面有指定的有三百多億，剩下還有六百多億，你們實在是找不到地方刪了，所以你們才去刪一般性補助款，你的理由是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們是刪減有困難。"],["葉委員元之：好，刪減有困難嘛！我想請教一下，當初立法院通刪這11個項目裡面有沒有一般性補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，它是刪項目，然後它說自行調整……"],["葉委員元之：它是說在這11個項目裡面通刪嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：可是那11個項目沒辦法刪。"],["葉委員元之：我就問你，那11個項目裡面有沒有一般性補助款？有沒有嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是說不夠要另外補足。"],["葉委員元之：所以那11個項目裡面你們一毛都刪不掉？然後你們另外從那11個項目之外去找了一個一般性補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它說不夠要補助。"],["葉委員元之：我想請教一下，剛剛地方政府也表達了，現在中央其實很多錢，優先順序你們可以做調整，譬如這六百多億你們可以依輕重緩急去找啊！有一些去年度執行率沒有那麼好的、有一些沒有很急著做的、有一些可能刪掉對人民影響不大的，你們先去刪啊！結果不是，你們去刪了地方非常重要的項目──社福、教育，在中央的角度裡面，社福、教育還不如中正路改名重要啊！我覺得真的很離譜耶！對你們而言，搞意識形態比地方的社福、教育、警察消防廳舍還要重要耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：縣市也可以歲出調整啦！主要影響的是歲入。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這個就是這樣子，政治就是做資源分配啦！你們要刪六百多億，可以從全國這麼多的事務裡面去刪，其他像中正路改名你們覺得一定要做，意識形態你們覺得一定要搞，還有特別費、出國旅費那些你們都動不了，但是地方的教育、社福砍了沒關係，這就是民進黨政府現在施政底下的優先順序！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，那一些都刪了喔！"],["葉委員元之：我認為基層民眾看到這樣子會覺得很寒心。再來，卓榮泰院長說：沒關係，反正地方政府也可以把歲計賸餘編來做這個事啊！以新北市來講，它去年歲計賸餘多少你知道嗎？不知道？是21億，我直接告訴你。歲計賸餘是去年，對吧？通常如果去年有歲計賸餘，但是之前有累虧的話，是不是也要把歲計賸餘拿去還債？你知不知道新北市政府從蘇貞昌當縣長以來，舉債到現在累虧是多少？你知道嗎？累虧887億，所以他在有累虧887億的情況之下，去年有賸餘，你叫人家把賸餘拿出來，補你亂砍的一般性補助款，這樣合理嗎？主計長，在你們的會計作法可以這樣做嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上是儘量啦！儘量來填補。"],["葉委員元之：什麼叫儘量？沒有儘量這種東西！我問你可不可以這樣做？人家有累虧八百多億，然後去年歲計賸餘21億，可不可以不還債，直接拿來花？可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上我們是希望能夠儘量來調整，如果不行，行政院會來協助。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們卓榮泰就亂講嘛，他說因為去年有歲計賸餘，所以就……他都不知道人家有累虧喔？整個政府都是在講話術，全部都在講話術！我覺得我們政府真的要本於人民的需求施政，好不好？你去看一下各地方政府有沒有很需要這筆一般性補助款，如果有需要，就要補助給人家。中央要有優先順序，像中正路改名，像這種每一個人都在罵的，你去做民意調查，你去問中正路上面的居民有沒有人想要改，一去改中正路，身分證要換、戶籍謄本要換、地籍謄本要換，然後所有機構在外面登的地址全部都要換，你去問一下臺灣人民，有多少人想要改中正路。這筆錢你硬要留著，然後有的很需要的，比如基層的社福、教育，這些砍了沒關係，政府怎麼會這樣施政？政府是做資源分配，把錢用在最需要的上面，你們砍了最需要的錢，結果硬要把那些大家覺得不需要的錢保留著，只為滿足政府的意識形態，可以這樣喔？然後行政院長就跳出來在那邊胡說八道，說什麼有賸餘的就可以拿來，那之前的累虧呢？不用管喔？所以今天這個案子我希望行政院可以懸崖勒馬，趕快，該給人家的一般性補助款，缺的就趕快補啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們也希望提出解決的辦法，將來希望立法院能夠支持。"],["葉委員元之：OK，那你提出來啊！但是你一碼歸一碼嘛，地方的錢，你要先給人家。如果中央真的覺得好想改中正路，好想改喔！缺多少，你提追加預算來嘛，但是你該給人家的錢要先還，好不好？我覺得優先順序要先訂好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接著我們請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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陳主席長還有法務部法制司的洪司長還有這個立法院預算中心的陳主任法制司有來嗎 陳主任還有我們金門縣的這個代表我們卓科長金門縣代表卓科長好"},{"start":38.19,"end":65.501,"text":"這個我們一位一位問那問到哪一位的時候我們請上來直接回答好這個因為今天大家在討論的都是說這個刪減636億是不是可以刪減的有沒有違法刪減這是法律問題就是說在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪而且是法定的預算那民進黨說因為刪了這些預算所以就是往地方政府刪是可以的是你們可以決定的空間就你們可以決定要刪哪些"},{"start":66.001,"end":71.386,"text":"我們現在看一下什麼叫法定預算法務部的法律司長有來嗎這個法定預算是什麼意思依照預算法的規定我國會計年度於每年1月1日開始到同年12月30日終了"},{"start":87.462,"end":103.488,"text":"當年度中央民國紀元來當這個名稱然後會計年度開始四個月前行政要會將會編的中央政府總預算及副組單位預算及重計表提送立法院審議預算那個不是您是那個請主計長後面那一排紅的您念一下"},{"start":105.88,"end":116.49,"text":"預算案經完成立法程序後 由總統公佈之 極為法定預算極為法定預算嘛 沒錯嘛 來 接著來你看114份審預算的流程 我們來回顧一下我們是1月21號 三讀通過總預算對不對那是不是3月12號你們復議嘛否決嘛 被立法院否決3月21號 請問這個總統有沒有公告"},{"start":128.72,"end":139.17,"text":"有沒有公告 經過總統府公告嘛好 我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎總統府到底公告了什麼我下面這個內容是總統府的這個公告內容這是 您看看對不對這是總統府的這個華總醫"},{"start":144.895,"end":151.981,"text":"金字 第114號 1140026191號 中華民國1143611的公告 這總統府公告的內容喔它針對直轄市及縣市政府 一般性補助款內容 2500億1279萬元 照列這個是錯誤的嗎你看我講的這個是對不對 這是總統府公告的內容"},{"start":169.038,"end":194.992,"text":"是不是總統府公告的內容是但是他也是公告要蘭妮那天我講過我先問一下所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了總統通過的公告你可以改等一下我先問你一下你說如果總統府公告就是法定預算所以行政院可不可以改總統府這個是個依法就包括法律啊預算通過就是一個法律的嘛這個可以改嗎來那個法務部"},{"start":197.573,"end":209.404,"text":"法律師 法律師 法治師 對不起法治師 法律師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師 法治師"},{"start":220.314,"end":238.547,"text":"也公佈了 總統府也公佈了復譽 他們又復譽總統府 行政說五年太少要十年要復譽我們都不同意 我們說就是五年那後來後 行政機關就法務部執行的時候檢察官求情的時候司法院的法官判的時候就說不行 就是按照十年開始判假設最低刑啦"},{"start":239.207,"end":265.521,"text":"您了解我在說什麼嗎就是總統府公佈的這個預算行政機關有權利去改更動內容嗎這個知識總統府公佈的喔這個剛我已經跟那個這個主計長確認過這是總統府公佈的這個內容有照列喔因為我們有我們審預算並不是呼嚨的審一堆喔我們是每一款包括什麼條本軍公交待遇99億啦齁災後準備金50億照列啦第二準備金多少照列啦齁對不對這個都是審過的喔"},{"start":270.185,"end":287.324,"text":"主計是 你這樣是在 主計處你是在打臉戴總統嗎我再跟委員報告一下 因為這裡面他其餘還有一個就是說通案刪減的那個不低於939那是通案刪減嘛 沒錯 但是通案刪減這個一刪減其他一定都會變動"},{"start":290.687,"end":308.207,"text":"來 通安生意前面有一句話如法定預算外然後接著還有中央剛剛很多委員都講過不用重複就是還說是刪的要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬地方政府不算你們的這個所屬因為地方政府你們要給地方的錢是法定預算我只是想了解我的意思說以後"},{"start":308.948,"end":327.918,"text":"立法院審預算有沒有效率啊我們每一條都說要給你們多少有沒有照列啊有沒有這個預算的是多少啊是25億啊是多少億啊像這一條明細表都有嘛那你們回去後你們可以自己改喔連總統公布都可以改喔我想問這個我先問你我剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎"},{"start":333.741,"end":347.487,"text":"法治司法治司司長 紅司長所以總統府公布的東西 照列的預算數也可以任意調整或是所有預算數都可以任意調整 會不會請教一下按照法律"},{"start":350.22,"end":368.682,"text":"謝謝委員法務部法治司這邊的回應是這樣就是說針對這個預算案如果經過審議的話它當然具有拘束的效力但是我剛才聽那個主計長的說法是說除了剛剛講的那個部分之外他有一個並同的決議就是有關於統三的部分"},{"start":369.222,"end":396.6,"text":"那當然他是依照那個相應的辦法來做一個所謂著語刪減的部分那當然這個法務部必須要講齁他們不論是依照地制法或者是財化法這都不是法務部主管的法令那是屬於內政部跟財政部主管內政部還不好內政部上來齁不好意思來我再請教齁內政部吳次長內政部齁來我再請教一下那個主計處長齁"},{"start":400.222,"end":425.322,"text":"陳處長,這個一般性補助金額研究,剛剛張委員講過,這個我不再講,這個是行政院國家配合精神我想問你們行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案依法律義務支出的這個依法律義務支出的臨時表,主計總署你們在送出這個總預算的時候,這些書表有沒有附給我們這些東西"},{"start":426.104,"end":440.202,"text":"有沒有有送你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來有送嘛對不對好你看一下你的送的表裡頭你的明細表裡頭就下一頁有沒有寫你要給地方政府補助多少特別列出114年度預算中共需2501.13億有沒有"},{"start":444.248,"end":457.586,"text":"這個表是不是正確的是就是你們送來給你們送來給我們立法院審的時候有送這個表有告訴我們說你們要給地方政府補助2500元按照地方制度法地方制度法就是內政部剛剛我們法制法"},{"start":459.068,"end":476.745,"text":"法治司法治司說的這個就聽到預算法的規定編了一般性補助款是2,501億這是也是行政院送來給立法院的這個要審的這個表格支出明細然後我們審完以後我們說這個部分我們照列我們不刪我們照列"},{"start":479.668,"end":501.4,"text":"我們不刪我們不刪以後我們送回去給行政院行政院再送去給總統這個部分公告公告完總統會公告說照列地方這個補助款不刪那所以以後總統公布的東西他說照列那如果這一項可以每一項都可以都可以隨行政院的自己覺得這個夠那個不夠那以後還要審預算嗎"},{"start":502.481,"end":517.466,"text":"以後就讓你們自己 自己這個我一共幹完了 因為我們說要通案刪減的事其他的部分是中央政府繼續所屬機關啊你們又要在那個部分來我們針對要刪減636是表示有困難嘛但是來我先講所以有困難的部落我們是表示真的有困難所以這個部落最後沒有辦法部的部才刪減有困難我理解來法務部"},{"start":529.429,"end":558.175,"text":"我那個昨天我看那個搶超商跟我講他生活上有困難這樣有沒有犯法有困難啊昨天有人在路上搶超商說我家裡就沒有辦法家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃我一定要去搶超商要搶兩個飯糰有沒有違法違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責對嘛有沒有困難是一回事嘛你要不要依法做嘛那法律有沒有存在的意義嘛對不對我們立法院通過是中央各機關機所屬啊"},{"start":559.677,"end":568.305,"text":"那如果你有困難你就按照一般的程序來追加我想再請問一下法務部這公務人員是不是要依法行政公務人員要依法行政如果沒有依法行政在刑事上的效果是什麼"},{"start":575.811,"end":584.561,"text":"他當然就看違反的情況 是不是有任何的行政法或是相當...刑事上有什麼效果?"},{"start":584.561,"end":589.026,"text":"瀆職嗎?是不是構成犯罪的話 必須要有犯罪作權條件那沒有違反是不是有這樣的風險啊?"},{"start":589.026,"end":589.227,"text":"法律風險有吧?"},{"start":591.349,"end":605.385,"text":"公務員如果沒有依法行政那我舉一個例子好了最近那個沸沸揚揚的那個台北市什麼都更案我看到一些公務員被教訓問教訓問以後我想請問啦我想一般百姓也想了解被教訓問以後他說這個開會的時候都是這個長官的意思如果長官違法"},{"start":609.249,"end":628.489,"text":"只是這個意思沒有依法指示如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話我不是指這個案子如果在這個情況下長官違法不按照法律做我們講誇張一點長官叫你去偷錢好了這當然沒那麼誇張但是意思長官違法很明確的違法不按照這個做工人有沒有責任啊聽話的工人有沒有責任"},{"start":630.311,"end":639.499,"text":"應該這樣講在刑法21條的時候依法令之行為不罰但是在但書裡頭如果說長官的命令違法者不在此限意思就是說"},{"start":641.593,"end":662.385,"text":"常任文官的是一個相對服從義務也就是說針對長官的違法命令的話他沒有辦法主張免責他沒有主張免責嘛所以今天我是要請各位這邊在座的都是公務人員這個總統公布的這個法令法令應該是有效益的吧這個法務部總統公布的東西有沒有效啊"},{"start":664.192,"end":688.548,"text":"只要經過三讀審議 總統公佈後施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力對嘛 也可以不遵守 也可以自己改是不是應該不是 我剛才聽主計處這邊的說法是說主計總署的說法是按照地方制度法所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢地方制度法 來 內政部對不起 主席我給你一點時間"},{"start":690.09,"end":697.937,"text":"所以地方支柱還有說如果總統公布說這個要給2500億但是那個主計數覺得不夠他可以改成1000億可以嗎有這一條是吧跟委員報告其實地方支柱69條只有說針對地方的財政不一要均衡發展所以我們會對財力較差的部分是因著於補助啦對嘛這是你們可以補助這個跟那個主力總村那個不一樣啦"},{"start":715.353,"end":740.405,"text":"跟主席總署那沒關係嘛不是不是 主席總署那個是他公告的部分就是說立法院沒有決議說還要再自行控制是是是 但不管立法院怎麼決議最後一關是總統嘛總統公告了吧所以剛剛說他是按照地方制度不是按照地方制度法因為跟這個不相干嘛跟地方制度法不相干嘛地方制度法只是說針對地方的一個餘補助而已跟通過的法律 通過的預算多少這個是不相干嘛不是地方制度法適用嘛 對吧"},{"start":741.725,"end":756.911,"text":"改總統府公告的預算跟地方治法有沒有關係?應該沒有改總統府的公告的內容沒有改嗎?你再確認一下你問有沒有改?主席長你再上來一下看我寫的這是我隨便汙名的還是說真的有?這張是真的嗎?總統府華總議金字第1140026191號這個公告"},{"start":762.373,"end":773.461,"text":"第26款 第一項 直轄市及縣政府一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列有沒有這句話 總統有沒有公布這句話有公告 但是有公告說我們要減636所以其他的都會檢討 然後我們是檢討第一項才會動到所以總統公告是給你們參考用"},{"start":783.899,"end":811.132,"text":"總統公告還要我們減636億這也是在公告裡面的範圍哪一句 那你把那句話找出來總統公告說 總統公告 我要總統公告的好 那我來再 你先找那我先問一下你提供給我來那我先問一下主計長您剛剛說因為很辛苦啦其實我理解你們很辛苦就是說在這個整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多啦很多 所以你們做不下去只好往地方下手啦因為很困難嘛這是你剛剛說的說法沒錯吧"},{"start":812.878,"end":842.038,"text":"我們就是刪減了兩千零七十六億嘛對 兩千零七十六億來我們來看 兩千零七十六億其中一千億是給台電的這跟這個沒關係 你知道吧然後所以你們就是減了地方的補儲款六百三十六億對不對然後你們的中央公會最後其他的一千多億就一零七六 你們去減地方然後你們自己減了四百四十億對不對如果以現在的結果四百四十億他是指定項目刪減所以對業務的推動有很大的困難是是來 所以"},{"start":842.538,"end":856.476,"text":"沒關係啦 我知道你有困擾我知道我一說我講的這個數字是正確的吧沒有錯吧台電1000億 中央部會減了440個縣市減了 全部的部份減了636那你們一年的預算是3兆你們減400次我算過是1.5%你們說這個3很多沒有空間"},{"start":860.942,"end":865.047,"text":"那地方政府是2500補助的是250億你們刪減636億是27%你一減1.5%你就哭到不行了還要往下去砍你給地方減27%你就要叫地方去跳樓吧"},{"start":874.707,"end":892.593,"text":"你 你知道我的意思嗎 你知道我的意思嗎你減1.5%就已經挨被靠物了啊地方你給他減27% 你叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔636億佔稅出 地方稅出只有3 佔多少幾%3.9而已3.9 對 好啦 就他 只有佔3%對 OK 你們佔1點 你們點 你們是1.3你們1.5你們就受不了 啊他3.9是兩倍他受得了喔"},{"start":902.759,"end":929.457,"text":"好吧 你聽到我的意思嗎你聽到我的意思嗎所以你撿的比地方還少沒關係啦 我現在只是想跟你講喔如果你沒有困難 我們其實也是支持你就是照那個程序去補追加已經執行到五月六月了知道哪些地方做得好 哪些地方做得不好你就追加過來嘛做得好的繼續嘛 可能要多一點做不好就不要再做嘛 還要節省嘛不是去把地方政府當作漏票啦"},{"start":930.157,"end":950.31,"text":"你了解我意思嗎?擄人勒索真的是給人家這種感覺所以這個部分你還是要回去好好思考而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統你畢竟是他派的組織長你也跟他共事這麼久一路跟你提拔上來你竟然修改他公告過的預算表這個是很不應該而且是違法"},{"start":951.05,"end":965.28,"text":"我想這個可能還有法律問題啊好嗎 也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法嘛 對不對長官到時候違法下面如果跟著違法下面是有罪的不是沒有 沒有罪的沒有罪 有責任的好嗎好嗎理解嗎不是 我們這個是沒有違法的啦你沒有違法 好好 沒關係啊這個很多學者都說有違法 只是你說沒有法反正今天也要疏遠了好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（13時47分）主席，我要請陳主計長、法務部法制司的洪司長、立法院預算中心的陳主任，還有我們金門縣的代表卓科長。"],["主席：請主計長、洪司長、陳主任、金門縣代表卓科長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我一位一位問，問到哪一位的時候請上來直接回答。今天大家討論的都是刪減636億是不是可以刪減、有沒有違法刪減，這是法律問題嘛，在野黨團認為我們當初沒有刪，而且是法定的預算；民進黨說因為刪了這些預算，所以往地方政府刪是可以的，這是你們可以決定的空間，就是你們可以決定刪哪些，這是你們的處分空間，癥結點是在這裡。","我們先來看一下什麼叫法定預算，我請法務部的代表，等一下我要請教您，法制司長有來嘛，我們看這個法定預算是什麼意思？依照預算法的規定：我國政府會計年度於每年1月1日開始至同年12月31日終了，以當年之中華民國紀元年次為其年度名稱，並於會計年度開始4個月前，行政院應將彙編之中央政府總預算案與附屬單位預算及綜計表，提送立法院審議。請主計長，後面那一排紅的您唸一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：預算案經完成立法程序後由總統公布之，即為法定預算。"],["陳委員玉珍：即為法定預算，沒錯嘛。接著你看，114年審預算流程我們來回顧一下，我們是1月21號三讀通過總預算，對不對？3月12號你們覆議被立法院否決，請問3月21號總統有沒有公告？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：中央政府總預算要經過總統府公告嘛。我們來看總統府到底公告了什麼？總統府公告的東西你可以改嗎？總統府到底公告了什麼？我下面這個內容是總統府公告的內容，你看看對不對？這是總統府華總一經字第11400026191號公告，中華民國114年3月21日的公告，這是總統府公告的內容喔！它針對直轄市及縣市府一般性補助款內容2,501億1,279萬元，照列，這個是錯誤的嗎？你看我講的這個對不對？這是總統府公告的內容。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：是不是總統府公告的內容？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是它也是公告要刪減636億啊……"],["陳委員玉珍：來！你先聽我講，我先問一下，所以總統府公告的內容你可以改就對了？總統通過的公告你可以改？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我不得不改、我不得不改……"],["陳委員玉珍：你等一下，我先問你一下，如果總統府公告就是法定預算，所以行政院可不可以改總統府的公告？這個依法就包括法律啊！預算通過就是一個法律了，這個可以改嗎？來！請法務部法制司。"],["主席：法制司。"],["陳委員玉珍：總統府如果公告一個法律，我舉例啦！不管是預算，當然還有法律，比如說詐騙最重要判5年，行政院覺得5年太少了，我們立法院通過了，總統府也公布了，但行政院說5年太少，要10年，要覆議，我們都不同意，我們說就是5年，後來行政機關（法務部）執行的時候，司法院法官判的時候說不行，就是按照10年開始判，假設是最低刑，你了解我在說什麼嗎？就是總統府公布的預算，行政機關有權力去更動內容嗎？這是總統府公布的喔！我剛已經跟主計長確認過了，這是總統府公布的，內容寫照列喔！我們審預算並不是隨便審一堆，我們是每一款，包括什麼調整軍公教待遇99億、災害準備金50億照列、第二準備金多少照列，對不對？這個都是審過的喔！主計處你這樣是在打臉賴總統嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再跟委員報告一下，因為這裡面還有一個，就是通案刪減不低於939……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那是通案刪減，沒錯！那是通案刪減……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是這個一刪減，其他一定都會變動……"],["陳委員玉珍：通案刪減……"],["陳主計長淑姿：其他一定都會變動。"],["陳委員玉珍：來！通案刪減前面有一句話，除法定預算外，接著還有中央……剛剛很多委員都講過，不用重複，還說要刪的是中央政府及機關及其所屬，地方政府不算你們的所屬，你們要給地方的錢是法定預算，我只是想了解，我的意思是，以後立法院審預算有沒有效力啊？我們每一條都說要刪多少、要給你們多少、有沒有照列，看預算是多少，比如25億、多少億，像這一條明細表都有嘛！你們回去可以自己改喔？連總統公布的都可以改？我想問……"],["陳主計長淑姿：預算裡面的項目，我們都可以自行調整……"],["陳委員玉珍：我先問你，我剛剛給你的資料是錯誤的嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們這也是院會的審議結果，我們也是照這個來……"],["陳委員玉珍：來，請法制司洪司長，所以總統府公布的東西，照列的預算數也可以任意調？以後是不是所有預算都可以任意調整？我想請教一下，按照法律。"],["洪司長家原：謝謝委員。法務部法制司這邊的回應是這樣，針對預算案，如果經過審議的話，它當然具有拘束的效力，但是我剛才聽主計長的說法是，除了剛剛講的那個部分之外，它有一個併同的決議，就是有關於統刪的部分，當然它是依照相應的辦法來做酌予刪減，這個法務部必須要講，不論是依照地制法或者是財劃法，這都不是法務部主管的法令，是屬於內政部跟財政部主管的法令……"],["陳委員玉珍：內政部跟財政部？好，內政部上來。"],["洪司長家原：不好意思。"],["主席：請內政部吳次長。"],["陳委員玉珍：我再請教主計總處陳處長。這個一般性補助款，剛剛張委員講過，我不再講，這個是行政院國發會要配合精省，我想問你，行政院在送給立法院114年中央政府總預算的相關書表時，有沒有附具114年中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表？主計總處在送出總預算的時候，這些書表有沒有附給我們？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有送啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有送？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有！"],["陳委員玉珍：你看我這張紙也有幫你查出來，有送嘛，對不對？好，你看一下你送的表裡頭，你的明細表裡頭有沒有寫要給地方政府補助多少？特別列出114年度預算中，共需2,501.13億，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個表是不是正確的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是你們送來給我們立法院審的時候，有送這個表，有告訴我們你們要給地方政府補助2501.13億，按照地方制度法，地方制度法就是法務部法制司說的，這是按照預算法的規定，編了一般性補助款是2,501.13億，這也是行政院送來給立法院審的表格喔！是支出明細喔！然後我們審完以後，我們說這個部分我們照列，我們不刪，我們不刪以後送回去給行政院，行政院再送去給總統公告，總統府也公告說照列，地方補助款不刪，所以以後總統公布的東西說照列，如果這一項可以這樣，那每一項都可以隨行政院自己覺得這個夠、那個不夠，那以後還要審預算嗎？以後就讓你們自己……這已經公告完了，因為我們說要通案刪減的是其他的部分，是中央政府及其所屬機關，你們又要在那個部分來……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們針對要刪減636億表示有困難嘛！但是立法院一直執意要……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我先講！有困難，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：針對有困難的部分，我們是表示真的有困難……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯，我理解、我理解……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以這個部分最後沒有辦法，才不得不刪減一般性補助……"],["陳委員玉珍：有困難，我理解，來！法務部，昨天我看那個搶超商的，他說他生活上有困難，這樣有沒有犯法？"],["洪司長家原：什麼？"],["陳委員玉珍：有困難啊！昨天有人在路上搶超商，說他沒有辦法，家裡有兩個小孩子完全沒有飯吃，他一定要去搶超商，要搶兩個飯糰，有沒有違法？"],["洪司長家原：違法的行為不可以因為動機的關係而有免責。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！有沒有困難是一回事嘛！你要不要依法做嘛？法律有沒有存在的意義嘛？對不對？我們立法院通過是中央各機關及其所屬啊，對不對？如果你有困難，你就按照一般的程序來追加嘛！我想再請問一下法務部，公務人員是不是要依法行政？"],["洪司長家原：公務人員要依法行政。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果沒有依法行政，在刑事上的效果是什麼？"],["洪司長家原：當然就看違反的情況是不是有任何的行政罰或是相關的罰則。"],["陳委員玉珍：刑事上有什麼效果，瀆職嗎？"],["洪司長家原：是不是構成犯罪的話，必須要有犯罪構成要件。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那是不是有這樣的風險？法律風險有吧？公務員如果沒有依法行政的話。"],["洪司長家原：要看相應的規定去推定……"],["陳委員玉珍：那我舉一個例子好了，最近沸沸揚揚的臺北市都更案，我看到一些公務員被叫去問，我想請問，我想一般百姓也想了解，他們被叫去問以後說，開會的時候都是這個長官的意思，如果長官違法指示、沒有依法指示，如果最後事實認定是這樣子的話，我不是指這個案子，如果在這個情況下，長官違法、不按照法律做，我們講誇張一點，長官叫你去偷錢好了，當然沒那麼誇張，但是意思……長官違法，很明確的違法，不按照法律，公務人員有沒有責任？聽話的公務人員有沒有責任？"],["洪司長家原：應該這樣講，在刑法第二十一條，依法令之行為不罰，但是在但書裡頭，如果長官的命令違法者則不在此限，意思是常任文官是一個相對服從義務，也就是說，針對長官的違法命令，他沒有辦法主張免責。"],["陳委員玉珍：他不能主張免責嘛？所以今天我要請各位，這邊在座的都是公務人員，總統公布的法律應該是有效力吧？法務部，總統公布的東西有沒有效力啊？"],["洪司長家原：只要經過三讀審議，經總統公布後施行，施行的法律會有法律拘束的效力。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛，那也可以不遵守？也可以自己改，是不是？"],["洪司長家原：應該不是，我剛才聽主計總處的說法是按照地方制度法……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以地方制度法有說如果不夠錢……來，內政部！對不起，主席，給我一點時間。"],["主席：內政部。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以地方制度法有說，如果總統公布說這個要給2,501億，但是主計處覺得不夠，它可以改成給它1,000億？可以嗎？有這一條嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，其實地方制度法第六十九條只有針對地方財政不一要均衡發展，所以我們對財力較差的部分應酌予補助啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！這是你們……"],["吳次長堂安：這個是裁量，這個跟主計總處那個不一樣啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：那沒關係嘛！"],["吳次長堂安：不是、不是，主計總處是針對公告的部分，就是立法院決議還要再自行扣減639億……"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是、是，但不管立法院怎麼決議，最後一關是總統嘛？總統公告了，所以他剛剛說他是按照地方制度法，但這不是按照地方制度法，因為跟這個不相干，跟地方制度法不相干嘛？"],["吳次長堂安：地方制度法只是針對地方要不要酌予補助而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，跟通過的法律、通過的預算多少是不相干，不是地方制度法適用，對吧？改總統公告的預算跟地方制度法有沒有關係？"],["吳次長堂安：應該沒有改總統府公告的內容。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有改嗎？你再確認一下，你去問有沒有改。主計長，你再上來一下，看我寫的這個是我隨便污名的還是真的有，這張是真的嗎？總統府華總一經字第11400026191號公告，第26款第1項「直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2,501億1,279萬元，照列。」有沒有這一句話？總統有沒有公布這一句話？"],["許處長永議：有公告，但是也公告我們還要減636億，所以其他的都會檢討，然後我們是檢討這一項才會動到。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以總統公告是給你們參考用？"],["許處長永議：總統公告還要我們減636億，這也是在公告裡面的範圍。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪一句？你把那一句話找出來，我要總統公告的，你先找，再提供給我。我先問一下主計長，您剛剛說因為很辛苦，其實我理解你們很辛苦，就是在整個預算裡頭因為被刪了很多，所以你們做不下去，只好往地方下手，因為很困難嘛！這是你剛剛的說法，沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們就是刪減了2,076億。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我們來看，2,076億的其中1,000億是給台電的，跟這個沒關係，你知道嘛！所以你們就去減了地方的補助款636億，對不對？然後中央各部會最後……如果以現在的結果來看，其他的一千多億，就是1,076億，你們去減地方，而你們自己減了440億，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：440億是指定項目刪減，所以對業務的推動有極大的困難。"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是、是，沒關係啦！你們有困難我知道，我的意思是，我講的這個數字是正確的吧？沒有錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：台電1,000億、中央部會減了440億、各縣市全部的部分減了636億，你們一年的預算是3兆，減440億，我算過是1.5%，你們說刪很多、沒有空間；地方政府補助的是2,501億，你們刪減636億，是27%。你們減1.5%就哭到不行了，還要往下去砍，你們給地方減27%，你們要叫地方去跳樓嗎？你知道我的意思嗎？你們減1.5%就已經「哀爸叫母」了，但你們給地方減27%，你們是叫地方政府全部去切腹自殺喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：636億只占地方歲出的……"],["陳委員玉珍：百分之多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：3.9%而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：3.9%？好，它只有占這樣。你們占1.5%就受不了，他們是3.9%，是兩倍，他們受得了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是4.6%，因為我們主要是有包括……"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽得懂我的意思嗎？所以你們減得比地方還少，沒關係啦！我現在只是想跟你講，如果你們有困難，我們其實也是支持你們照那個程序去補、追加，已經執行到5月、6月了，知道哪些地方做得好、哪些地方做得不好，你們就追加過來嘛！做得好的繼續，可能要多一點；做不好就不要再做，還要節省。不是把地方政府當作肉票啦！您了解我的意思嗎？擄人勒索，真的是給人家這種感覺啦！這個部分你還是要回去好好思考，而且請你不要打臉賴清德總統，你畢竟是他派的主計長，你也跟他共事這麼久，一路把你提拔上來，你竟然修改他公告過的預算表，這個是很不應該啦！而且是違法，我想這個可能還有法律問題，好嗎？也不要害下面在執行的這些常任公務官違法，對不對？長官帶頭違法，下面如果跟著違法是有罪的，不是沒有沒有罪的，有責任的啊！好嗎？理解嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們這個是沒有違法的啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有違法？好，沒關係啦！很多學者都說有違法，只有你說沒有違法，反正今天也要訴願了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，也請主計長從善如流，回去好好思考一下，謝謝。","下一位質詢請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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莊部長委員好主規定你2002年應該已經進入主計體系了嘛你知道2002年一樣有謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":60.593,"end":80.705,"text":"時間調回來調回來 我叫你時間調回來調回來啦 時間不過喔 不用擔心組長 2002年一樣要通山 要行政院自行調整多少錢 你曉得嗎300多億 800多億吧658億比你現在的636還多對不對那時候有沒有調整好"},{"start":89.929,"end":118.769,"text":"有三大地方補助款嗎對啊那時候中央政府的規模只有現在的大概一半耶那時候大概只有一兆五千億同樣是民進黨執政中度你沉水點啊平靜一點張靜雄要你自行調整要通商的幅度比你經濟還大為什麼沉水點行現在經濟不行"},{"start":119.878,"end":144.843,"text":"張建雄行 你中央派就不行以前主席黨行 現在為什麼你這不行咧有潛力可循啊 怎麼會自然來行咧民進黨政府是什麼 一代不如一代嗎現在還這樣對不起人民 還砍人民的錢砍的是社福 砍的是教育砍的是基礎建設 你們到底有沒有良心啊你們把人民放在心上嗎"},{"start":147.096,"end":164.128,"text":"一個是能力問題以前能夠做現在為什麼不能做第二更重要你有沒有心啊你不就是要幫人民服務的嗎怎麼去砍人民最直接的預算呢那很多是中低收入戶是長輩是小孩窮也去幫窮在教育啊你當主計長你不就是要負責把優先順序定好對不對就去砍那個最不該砍的你心裡有人民嗎"},{"start":179.535,"end":205.523,"text":"大部分就是正義裁員的一個部分那所以三項基本設施的部分是六度但是六度他本身裁員就比較好所以這個部分就是比較影響的比較少署計長跟行政院一個重責大任你最重要的你不就是施政院的優先順序嗎是對不對這會是你最該砍的嗎因為他影響你要怎麼調他影響的是順度當初立法院為什麼做這個決議"},{"start":207.063,"end":221.089,"text":"因為你的預算膨脹得太快今年都是創歷史新高而且一下子本來增加將近四千億耶你們本來編的是三兆一千多耶而且裡面一堆當費當費跟補當 甚至B&I租業訂來 輕重緩急 我問你你們在編預算之前你在主計單位這麼久你們在看審計部的決算嗎你有沒有在看審計部的決算書有嘛"},{"start":235.285,"end":261.421,"text":"每一年審計部的結算書有指出多少浪費跟不當的你不會拿來參考唷你要調636當然這個裡面不當跟浪費的一定比你現在講的地方的這個補助款更要砍嘛你不是輕重罰金哪個輕哪個重哪個急哪個緩你怎麼去砍地方的基礎建設社福跟教育呢來我來跟你討論你去翻一翻那個審計部的結算書"},{"start":264.778,"end":285.515,"text":"國發基金不只是腐爛一堆批案光是投資 聯合再生 民進黨的大金屬140億元一個投資案虧損140億元 怎麼代表起人民投資一個如心牛仔褲 不然能贏過嗎"},{"start":287.864,"end":311.776,"text":"撇了人民納稅錢 撇了一褲子 你們要看結算書你要先砍這一種啊 你怎麼會砍人民的錢呢報告委員 國化基金它是附屬單位預算 它不是總預算國化基金是腳褲的一個部份 你可以翻結算書嘛裡面看到哪些是不當的錢嘛 浪費的錢嘛就剛剛講國化基金的投資浪費 人民納稅名高之外"},{"start":316.857,"end":325.1,"text":"真的太讓人家生氣了我前面跟你講的前瞻運算一個前陣漁港要五毛給一千塊韓國瑜當高雄市長說要前陣漁港補助三千個一毛錢都不給陳吉茂上來可以給八十一億你中央怎麼會沒錢你中央錢多得有些些喔"},{"start":346.311,"end":351.373,"text":"都是圖利你們民進黨的利誘有圖利民進黨政府嘛為什麼不給一般的民眾呢最近說沒錢內政部要搞什麼改路 改什麼從政路還說沒錢 中央給你錢內政部不要改 不就錢就省下來了嗎是不是你告訴我他憑什麼現在吃肉多餓是不是"},{"start":373.424,"end":385.27,"text":"那麼多重要的事情不做,你還講說地方沒錢,你改入名,中央給你錢,去把那個錢扣回來啊搞什麼大罷免,至少發十二億,這不是民脂民膏嗎結算書裡面還檢討過一個很重要的,知不知道整個中央政府的那個基金跟財團法人,腐爛"},{"start":399.926,"end":429.064,"text":"領了一堆人民的納稅錢又不好好做事情我正在跟你說啊中央稀產會讓費我們人民的納稅錢至少讓費五億多超市雞蛋 買了雞蛋進來還沒進倉庫就壞掉了後來又銷毀發我們人民納稅錢五億多這個中央稀產會的董事長本來是無幾值欸您從前 他下台以後他可以一年領三百萬請去看一看"},{"start":430.557,"end":454.193,"text":"審計部的結算書或者超時雞蛋的這個弊案中央續產會中央政府有多少的財團法人多少基金你跟我說的他們憑什麼領的薪水比你多中央續產會當署訂的那三百萬還配車身體檢討嘛你六百三十六億我都已經說過了幾百億了國發基金的投資浪費前瞻預算裡面的這個浪費"},{"start":458.631,"end":481.476,"text":"剛剛講的改入名這個浪費整個中央的這個基金財團法人的改革你改革這個有掌聲啊人家不只不罵你還感謝你你做改革然後去砍人家最重要的事情他都是附屬單位預算不是總預算啊他的錢是從你這邊進來嘛你為什麼不會去省不會去改革因為一般附屬單位預算你跟外國內政部 等一下來 署長你專家你聽我說"},{"start":484.278,"end":505.147,"text":"第一個 剛講的內政部那個是不是這個錢等一下我還要跟你講還有咧事務發布拿了人民納稅錢去租那個台北市最貴的星光大樓 地厚這已經減少多久了我以前當記者的時候印象還很深刻啊政府花了多少錢浪費去租了很好的辦公室那時候的省記長"},{"start":507.362,"end":532.285,"text":"蘇振平站在這位王建憲坐在外面問他他說這個問題這麼嚴重 讓我們人民納稅警去蘇辦公室蘇振平說你給我一年時間我去處理 不行我切腹自殺以前的政務官是這樣幹的啦你看以前的省紀長 處紀長是這樣幫人民勘整每一分荷包 每一分錢 做改革嘛現在不是 你們擔當到哪裡去了我剛剛講的這是不是都是該改的"},{"start":533.482,"end":552.588,"text":"不管是本來從中央政府錢要出去或者是你從附屬的這個機構你錢要從人民的錢進去啊你要找636億很容易找回去翻審計部的結算書好不好好 更重要的更重要的我現在幫你找到錢了喔我今天已經跟你講了從以前2002年有心理陳水扁可以處理"},{"start":558.061,"end":582.11,"text":"張敬雄可以處理 現在的賴清德跟中瀾跟新任的主席長 陳主席長 你們就要有辦法處理有利可行 不要講自然來行第二個 我今天連錢都跟你講了 我連方法都跟你講了都在閒省計部的結算書還有很多立法委員找出來的 浪費的 不當的還有一些弊案的你砍了哲平才會感謝你嘛 結果現在不是 現在嚴重在什麼地方你現在砍了你怎麼 你默著良心講 自規定"},{"start":584.687,"end":605.424,"text":"你本來應該去做改革 沒有結果你現在砍的都是人民最重要的事情第一個你怎麼會想到砍社福預算你如果還在台南你怎麼去面對你去跟你的台南市的市民講說我的社福預算中低收入戶你的錢不要我要把你砍掉了老人家的錢小孩的錢教育的錢你要砍掉你怎麼去面對民眾"},{"start":607.335,"end":629.205,"text":"而且更重要的,當初立法院在審這個預算,來,我給你看一下,你對著你眼睛看到可以砍地方的補助款,我們當初立法院刪減的是什麼?中央政府及所屬啊,你對著你眼睛看到有地方補助款,明明砍的都是中央政府機關跟所屬啊,"},{"start":637.298,"end":663.915,"text":"你是不要理我 還是中邪的這不是嚴重違法嗎現在還把責任甩鍋給立法院大家都知道你們行政院砍的嘛而且你們砍的跟立法院要求又不一樣而且你們在審的過程裡面地方補助館一毛錢都沒有砍耶好 接下來看裁判法剛剛國參有特別跟你們講我們在修這個法的時候就是怕你們衝康嘛所以我們法律裡面明明定的清清楚楚"},{"start":665.393,"end":686.649,"text":"去年就已經三讀通過了餒你現在還在砍另外我問你一個專業的問題現在那麼多縣市的代表都在這邊你們什麼時候給他們地方補助款的一般補助款你什麼時候跟他講的你什麼時候合訂的七年八月對不對"},{"start":688.092,"end":716.753,"text":"去年8月你把補助款核定給人家包括嘉義市 新北市 台北市 彰化每個地方把它當成稅入對不對稅入還送到各個議會去審議員都通過了你現在可以砍喔所以你三大違法第一跟立法院的規定審三讀的時候也不一樣第二個違反財務法第三個你違反你當初跟整個地方政府約定的是不是這樣三大違法你砍的又是三大最不能砍的"},{"start":718.698,"end":745.924,"text":"社福 基礎建設 教育好啦 最後說個結論台灣民眾黨今天態度非常堅決喔因為人民的反應很熱烈各個縣市政府也要求馬上要把地方這個額度要補足今天我們已經提出提案了要求行政院你要遵守我們當初我們要求要通山的 自行調整的是在中央各機關及所屬所編列的預算裡面去調整不能夠去動到地方的"},{"start":746.806,"end":769.375,"text":"那你現在砍了 請立即補儲額還給地方你太客氣了 台積一年的預算才203億砍了17.3億 他要做什麼啊而且都跟這邊有關的 都要補儲好不好主席拜託我要要求一下喔 今天一定要處理我們民眾黨 絕對要求今天要處理喔今天不要以為民進黨來耍流氓喔 背個碗以後就沒有處理"},{"start":771.399,"end":784.377,"text":"這行政已經無法無天 違法亂紀了更不允許民進黨立委在這邊亂好的我們今天要求 今天一定要處理民眾黨的提案趕快把足額的地方補助款拖補給各個縣市政府 謝謝好 謝謝張委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時34分）謝謝主席，請主計長及財政部長。"],["主席：陳主計長、莊部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，2002年你應該已經進入主計體系了嘛，你知道2002年一樣要通刪，要行政院自行調整多少錢，你曉得嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：八百多億吧，六百八……"],["張委員啓楷：658億，比現在的636億還多，對不對？那時候有沒有調整好？有刪到地方補助款嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：那時候黨團有協商。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，那時候中央政府的規模只有現在的大概一半，大概只有1兆5,000億，同樣是民進黨執政，總統是陳水扁啊，行政院長張俊雄，要自行調整、要通刪的幅度、金額比現在還大，為什麼陳水扁行，現在賴清德不行？張俊雄行，卓榮泰就不行？以前主計長行，現在為什麼你就不行呢？有前例可循啊，怎麼會窒礙難行呢？民進黨政府是怎麼樣，一代不如一代嗎？現在還這樣對不起人民，還砍人民的錢，砍的是社福、砍的是教育、砍的是基礎建設，你們到底有沒有良心啊？你有把人民放在心上嗎？一個是能力問題，以前能夠做，現在為什麼不能做？第二個更重要，你有沒有心啊？你不就是要幫人民服務的嗎？怎麼去砍人民最直接的預算呢？那很多是中低收入戶、是長輩、是小孩，窮也不能窮在教育啊！你當主計長，你不就是要負責把優先順序訂好，對不對？結果你砍了一個最不該砍的，你心裡有人民嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員報告一下，我們砍的大部分就是爭議財源的部分，所以三項基本設施的部分是六都，但是六都本身的財源就比較好，所以這個部分影響得比較少，所以我們……"],["張委員啓楷：主計長跟行政院的重責大任，最重要的不就是施政要有一個優先順序嗎？對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這會是你最該砍的嗎？你要怎麼調？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它影響的是歲入……"],["張委員啓楷：你們就調浪費的部分，當初立法院為什麼作這個決議？因為你的預算膨脹得太快，今年度是創歷史新高，而且一下子增加將近四千億耶，你們本來編的是三兆一千多耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是刪減的都是一般業務費啊！影響到一般業務的進行。"],["張委員啓楷：而且都是一堆浪費，浪費跟不當，甚至弊案！主計長，我要問你輕重緩急，你們在編預算之前，你在主計單位這麼久，你們有在看審計部的決算嗎？你有沒有在看審計部的決算書？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["張委員啓楷：有嘛，每一年審計部的決算書有指示多少浪費跟不當的，你不會拿來參考嗎？你要調這636億的部分，當然這個裡面不當跟浪費的，一定比你現在講的地方補助款更要砍嘛！你要視輕重緩急，哪個輕、哪個重、哪個急、哪個緩？你怎麼會去砍地方的基礎建設、社福跟教育呢？來，我跟你討論，你去翻一翻審計部的決算書，國發基金不只是浮濫，一堆弊案！光是投資聯合再生、民進黨的大金主，140億耶，一個投資案虧損140億耶！怎麼對得起人民？投資一個如興牛仔褲賠兩億多，賠我們人民的納稅錢賠了一褲子，你有沒有看決算書？你要砍要先砍這種啊！你怎麼會砍人民的錢呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，國發基金是附屬單位預算，它不是總預算……"],["張委員啓楷：錢也是從這邊進去嘛，也是民脂民膏嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，國發基金是繳庫的部分，是歲入的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：我再給你看，你有看決算書嘛，裡面有看到哪些是不當的錢、浪費的錢，所以我剛剛講國發基金的投資浪費人民的民脂民膏之外……","真的太讓人家生氣了，我上次跟你說的，前瞻預算，一個前鎮漁港要5毛給1,000塊，韓國瑜當高雄市長時要前鎮漁港的補助3,000億，一毛錢都不給，陳其邁上來可以給81億，中央怎麼會沒錢？中央錢多得「油洗洗」！都是圖利你們民進黨的綠友友、圖利民進黨的政府嘛，為什麼不給一般的民眾呢？最近說沒錢，內政部要搞什麼改路、改什麼中正路，還說沒錢的話中央給你錢，內政部不要改，錢不就省下來了嗎，是不是？你跟劉世芳說，她憑什麼……現在「食飽換枵」，是不是？那麼多重要事情不做，他還講說地方沒錢改路名，中央給你錢，去把那個錢扣回來啊！搞什麼大罷免，至少要花12億，這不是民脂民膏嗎？","審計部決算書裡面還檢討過一個很重要的，整個中央政府的基金跟財團法人浮濫領了一堆人民的納稅錢又不好好做事情，我上次就跟你說了，中央畜產會浪費我們人民的納稅錢至少浪費了五億多，超思買了雞蛋進來，還沒進倉庫就壞掉了，後來又銷毀、花我們人民納稅錢五億多，這個中央畜產會董事長本來是無給職，林聰賢下臺以後可以一年領300萬！請去看一看審計部的決算書或者超思雞蛋的這個弊案，就像中央畜產會，中央政府有多少的財團法人、多少基金，如同那天我跟你說的，他們憑什麼領的薪水比你多？中央畜產會董事長領了300萬還配車，總體檢討嘛！","關於你的636億，我剛剛已經說幾百億了，國發基金的投資浪費、前瞻預算裡面的浪費、剛剛講的改路名浪費、整個中央的基金與財團法人改革，你改革這個有掌聲啊，人民不只不罵你還感謝你，你不做改革然後去砍人民最重要的事情！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這部分都是附屬單位預算，不是總預算啦。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這都是附屬單位預算，不是總預算。"],["張委員啓楷：對呀，這些錢是從你這邊進來嘛，你為什麼不會去審、不會去改革？剛剛提到內政部……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為一般附屬單位預算……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，主計長，你是專家你聽我說，第一個，剛剛講的內政部是不是這個錢？等一下我還要跟你講，還有呢！數發部拿我們人民納稅錢去租臺北市最貴的新光大樓──地后，這已經檢討多久了！我以前當記者的時候印象還很深刻，政府花了多少錢浪費地去租了很好的辦公室，那時候的審計長蘇振平站在你這個位子，時任立委的王建煊問他，他說這個問題這麼嚴重、浪費我們人民納稅錢去租辦公室，蘇振平說：你給我一年時間去處理，不行，我切腹自殺。以前的政務官是這樣幹的啦！你看以前的審計長、主計長是這樣幫人民看緊荷包、每一分錢，做改革嘛！現在不是，你們的擔當到哪裡去了？我剛剛講的是不是都是該改的？不管是本來要從中央政府出去的錢，或者你說的附屬機構，這些錢還是從人民的錢進去啊！你要找636億很容易找，回去翻審計部的決算書，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的，我現在幫你找到錢了，我今天已經跟你講了，從以前2002年有先例，陳水扁可以處理、張俊雄可以處理，現在的賴清德、卓榮泰跟新任的陳主計長就要有辦法處理，有例可循，不要講窒礙難行。","第二個，我今天連錢都跟你講了、我連方法都跟你講了，就是翻審計部的決算書，還有很多立法委員找出來浪費的、不當的、還有一些弊案，你砍了人民才會感謝你，結果現在不是，現在嚴重在什麼地方？你現在砍了……你摸著良心講，主計長，你本來應該去做改革，不但沒有，結果你現在砍的都是人民最重要的事情。第一個，你怎麼想到要砍社福預算？你如果還在臺南，你要怎麼去面對、怎麼去跟臺南市的市民講？你說：社福預算、中低收入戶的錢，我要把你砍掉了。老人家的錢、小孩的錢、教育的錢你要砍掉，你怎麼去面對民眾？","而且更重要的，當初立法院在審這個預算……來，我給你看一下，主計長，你看一下……"],["主席（羅委員明才代）：時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你哪一隻眼睛看到可以砍地方的補助款？當初我們立法院刪減的是什麼？中央政府及所屬！你哪一隻眼睛看到地方補助款？明明砍的都是中央政府機關跟所屬，你是不識字還是「條直」？這不是嚴重違法嗎？現在還把責任甩鍋給立法院，那都是你們行政院砍的嘛，而且你們砍的跟立法院要求的又不一樣，而且在我們審的過程裡面，地方補助款一毛錢都沒有砍耶！","接下來看財劃法，剛剛國昌有特別跟你講……"],["主席：好，時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：我們在修這個法的時候就是怕你們「創空」嘛，所以我們的法律明明定得清清楚楚，去年就已經三讀通過了，你現在還在砍。","另外，我問你一個專業的問題，主計長，現在那麼多縣市的代表都在這邊，你們什麼時候給他們地方補助款的一般補助款，你什麼時候跟他們講的，你什麼時候核定了？去年8月，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：去年8月你把補助款核定給人家，包括嘉義市、新北市、臺北市、彰化縣，每個地方把它當成歲入，對不對？歲入還要送到各個議會去審，議會都通過了，結果你現在可以砍喔？所以你三大違法，第一個，跟立法院三讀的規定也不一樣；第二個，違反財劃法；第三個，你違反當初跟地方政府約定的，是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們在公文有註明。"],["張委員啓楷：三大違反，你砍的又是三大最不能砍的──社福、基礎建設、教育。","最後，我做個結論。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：台灣民眾黨今天的態度非常堅決，因為人民的反映很熱烈，各個縣市政府也要求要馬上把地方的額度補足，今天我們已經提出提案了，要求行政院要遵守我們當初的要求，要通刪、自行調整的是在中央各機關及所屬所編列的預算裡面去調整，不能夠去動到地方的，那你現在砍了，請立即補足額還給地方。像嘉義市一年的預算才203億，你砍了17.3億，他們要怎麼做事情？而且都是跟人民有關的，趕快補足，好不好？","拜託主席，我要求一下，今天一定要處理……"],["主席：好，我們尊重各位委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們民眾黨要求今天一定要處理，今天不能因為民進黨來這裡耍流氓，杯葛完以後就沒有處理，行政院已經無法無天、違法亂紀了，更不允許民進黨立委來這邊亂！"],["主席：好的，因為時間到……"],["張委員啓楷：我們要求今天一定要處理民眾黨的提案，趕快把足額的地方補助款撥補給各個縣市政府，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","下一位質詢請陳玉珍陳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982824f9430aebc9bdd95e54a9d8358219467bb1e23192d70fed2bf7ee431a5d15725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"13:26:33 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13:34:12","影片長度":"00:07:39","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T13:26:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T13:34:12+08:00","duration":459,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.56221875,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.84846875,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.10471875,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.404093750000001,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.05971875,"end":33.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.61659375,"end":33.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.50659375,"end":37.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.92784375,"end":41.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.13846875,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.875968750000006,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.78721875,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.86284375,"end":83.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.78159375,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.13159375000001,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.98346875,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.75534375000001,"end":104.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.79221875,"end":97.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.52971875,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.86284375000001,"end":134.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.54159375,"end":153.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.64534375,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.36159375,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.43284375000002,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.03596875000002,"end":157.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.08659375000002,"end":159.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":169.96221875,"end":170.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":171.27846875,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.64534375000002,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.37034375000002,"end":178.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.48096875000002,"end":198.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.08846875,"end":199.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.25721875000002,"end":200.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.21471875,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.57721875000001,"end":206.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.10409375,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.80409375000002,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.16221875000002,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.48221875000002,"end":224.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.94096875000002,"end":226.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.79721875,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.86659375000002,"end":248.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.51534375000003,"end":251.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.55284375000002,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.96846875,"end":289.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.87596875,"end":299.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":293.52096875,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.97659375,"end":294.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.55034375,"end":295.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.93346875000003,"end":319.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.64346875,"end":349.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.54596875000004,"end":359.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.51909375,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.45971875000004,"end":362.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.38784375,"end":371.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.92221875,"end":384.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.20284375,"end":392.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.04971875,"end":394.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395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我們請主席長跟雲林縣政府鄭秘書長還有宜蘭縣政府吳志宏秘書長好 雲林的鄭秘書長跟宜蘭的吳秘書長好 主席長好主席長 我想請教你地方制度法從88年修法通過之後行政院編列給地方政府的一般性補助款請問有沒有在執行時被刪減過"},{"start":32.09,"end":37.498,"text":"主席 請您回答主席 請您回答有沒有在執行時被刪減過從地質法通過以來沒有"},{"start":47.83,"end":63.648,"text":"沒有嘛 主席長也就是說地方的縣市政府的一般性補助款從來沒有在執行時被刪減過剛剛主席長回答是這樣嘛那另外再請教主席長地方政府依據主計總署提供的"},{"start":64.228,"end":84.443,"text":"補助金額完成整體預算編列並經各地方的議會審議通過但是現在中央政府又突襲式的刪減中央政府對地方性的一般性補助款那是不是已經違反了預算信賴原則這樣的行為是不是算依法行政呢有沒有違法"},{"start":85.183,"end":107.268,"text":"我們是依法來刪減 依什麼法不是 我們是一般性的補助辦法裡面 它是說你可以卓越補助那現在立法院要求我們刪減636 我們是有困難所以這個部門才不得不來刪減一般性的補助款我想請你看一個文 行政院在113年8月30號發函給"},{"start":110.65,"end":133.75,"text":"這個立法院的附件有一個114年度的法律義務支出的明細表其中也清楚地列出一般性補助款是屬於法定義務支出依法是不得刪減的那請問一下剛剛組長您說過的我們行政院刪減對地方政府的一般性補助款27.3%請問是依照哪一條法律可以授權你們刪減所謂的法律義務支出"},{"start":134.611,"end":158.596,"text":"第一個我們對於一般縣市的一個補助是著於補助那所以第二個你說刪減依法律義務的部分以往也都有刪減像國債付息的部分法律義務支出可以刪減嗎我以前都有刪減過立法院也有刪減過就是說在那個那就是一般性的地方性補助款你們以前有刪減過嗎我剛剛問說沒有嘛那一般性補助款既然是"},{"start":158.976,"end":170.049,"text":"法律的義務支出那為什麼又可以刪減我現在有點不懂這個邏輯呢剛剛你告訴我一般性的這個以前從來沒有刪減過那它是屬於法律義務支出吧是"},{"start":171.325,"end":194.255,"text":"依法律義務的部分雖然有法言依據但是它並沒有規定標準因為像依據我們地方制度法第69條第一項規定各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力較差的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽一下雲林縣政府先說明一下這個我們刪減了27.3%的這個經費之後對地方有什麼影響好 請那個雲林的曾秘書長"},{"start":201.907,"end":224.368,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝委員我想我分三點來說明雲林縣政府是一個高度依賴中央補助的縣市我們一般的稅收跟中央的補助回收大概每年都有6億的缺口即使現在逐年的補助裡面大概每年也增加到最多增加到5億所以這個缺口都是存在的"},{"start":225.069,"end":238.275,"text":"第二個部分就是說這一次砍的37億的部分一般補助款的37億的部分再加上我們一一式的運動會也到了那計劃性補助款也沒有下來所以對於雲林縣來講是一個選上加雙的方式"},{"start":240.756,"end":260.587,"text":"這一次在補助款的減免裡面教育我想社府各個縣市大家都表示意見基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是因為縣市一個很重要的農業生產基地薰旗也到了 颱風旗也到了這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款"},{"start":261.087,"end":288.909,"text":"所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響以上說明所以對雲林縣這樣的一個農業縣也是弱勢財政相對弱勢的縣市事實上的這個補助款3減37.61之後再加上剛剛您提到的這個我們的全國的運動會所以會造成的財務的這種缺口可以說我覺得是雪上加霜啦所以說我想這影響非常的大那我們再來聽一下我們"},{"start":290.09,"end":318.864,"text":"這個宜蘭縣政府也是屬於財政相對弱勢的縣市請問一下這個我們刪減的一般性補助款27.3%對我們宜蘭縣政府有什麼影響好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員也給我們宜蘭這個機會在這邊發表一下那大概在去年我們收到行政院的含原核定的一般性補助款是93.6億那結果在今年我們收到了刪除的"},{"start":319.784,"end":348.619,"text":"一般性補助款刪除了25.56億總共只剩下68.03億那大概衝擊到我們因優先之應的農民健保跟國民年金還有老農津貼的法定義務支出而且要彌補中低收入老人津貼還有身心障礙者的補助的必要的社會福利支出那其他的對於六大社福津貼還有教育經費等等相關的"},{"start":350.48,"end":370.671,"text":"經費均有斷炊之餘這是第一點那當初我們也跟行政院主計總署反映刪減了25.56億我們縣市政府該怎麼辦主計總署跟我們的回應是說我們叫我們減少支出或者增加舉債增加舉債我跟各位報告"},{"start":371.994,"end":379.483,"text":"宜蘭縣到目前為止契金上有累積短處67億那長短債務173億最近這幾年我們林志廟縣長上任之後總共對債務還款了38.57億在112年好不容易從重度的"},{"start":393.558,"end":421.56,"text":"在線裡面調整到中度要往輕度發展那主計總數竟然叫我們再增加舉債那這樣子我們就勢必要走回頭路我想剛才也有委員提到說苗栗跟宜蘭大概財政都是相當的困難那這邊我們也是再度懇請我們行政院這邊能夠緊速恢復原有宜蘭線的一般性補助款的額度以上"},{"start":422.921,"end":437.169,"text":"好 謝謝像主席講你剛剛聽到我想不然是雲林縣或以南縣他們都相對是財政弱勢的縣市那你也聽到對他們的影響很大不管是指生長的這個托育的縮減還有老人工餐還有營養午餐的"},{"start":438.27,"end":452.697,"text":"這個還有一些基礎建設的部分事實上都會受到很大的影響所以邀請主計長喔要回去要跟我們的行政院長報告一下真的要懸崖勒馬不要苛刻我們地方的一般性補助款讓他們能夠好好的為地方做事謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（13時26分）謝謝主席，請主計長跟雲林縣政府曾秘書長，還有宜蘭縣政府吳志宏秘書長。"],["主席：陳主計長、雲林的曾秘書長跟宜蘭的吳秘書長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主計長好。主計長，我想請教你，地方制度法從88年修法通過之後，行政院編列給地方政府的一般性補助款，請問有沒有在執行時被刪減過？主計長，請您回答。主計長，請您回答有沒有在執行時被刪減過，從地制法通過以來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有嘛！主計長，也就是說地方縣市政府的一般性補助款從來沒有在執行時被刪減過，剛剛主計長回答的是這樣。","另外再請教主計長，地方政府依據主計總處提供的補助款金額完成整體預算編列並經各地方議會審議通過，但是現在中央政府又突襲式的刪減中央政府對地方的一般性補助款，是不是已經違反了預算信賴原則？這樣的行為是不是算依法行政呢？有沒有違法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是依法來刪減，那這個部分……"],["許委員宇甄：依什麼法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們一般性的補助辦法裡面是說可以酌予補助，現在立法院要求我們刪減636億，我們是有困難，所以這個部分我們才不得不來刪減一般性的補助款。"],["許委員宇甄：主計長，我想請你看一個文，就是行政院在113年8月30日發函給立法院的附件，有一個114年度法律義務支出明細表，其中也清楚的列出一般性補助款是屬於法律義務支出依法是不得刪減的，請問一下剛剛主計長您說過的，行政院刪減對地方政府的一般性補助款27.3%，請問是依照哪一條法律可以授權你們刪減所謂的法律義務支出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一個，我們對於一般縣市的補助是酌予補助；第二個，你說刪減依法律義務的部分，以往也都有刪減，像國債付息、補助財團法人……"],["許委員宇甄：法律義務支出可以刪減嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以前都有刪減過，立法院也有刪減過，就是在國債付息……"],["許委員宇甄：那就是一般性的地方性補助款，你們以前有刪減過嗎？我剛剛問你，你說沒有嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般性補助款是沒有，但是其他依法律……"],["許委員宇甄：那一般性補助款既然是法律的義務支出，為什麼又可以刪減？我實在有點不懂這個邏輯，剛剛你告訴我，一般性的以前從來沒有刪減過，那它是屬於法律義務支出吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，依法律義務的部分雖然有法源依據，但是它並沒有規定刪減的標準。"],["許委員宇甄：主計長，我跟你講，因為時間的關係，我必須先讓你聽一下地方的聲音，依據地方制度法第六十九條第一項規定，各上級政府為謀地方均衡發展，對於財力較差之地方政府應酌予補助。我們現在先聽一下雲林縣政府的說明，刪減27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響。"],["主席：請雲林的曾秘書長。"],["曾秘書長元煌：謝謝主席，也謝謝委員。我想我分三點來說明，雲林縣政府是一個高度依賴中央補助的縣市，我們一般的稅收跟中央的補助費收大概每年都有6億的缺口，即使現在逐年補助，每年大概最多也增加到5億，所以這個缺口都是存在的。第二個部分就是，這一次砍了一般補助款37億，再加上我們114年的運動會也要到了，計畫性補助款也沒有下來，所以對於雲林縣來講是一個雪上加霜的狀況，這一次在這個補助款的額度減免裡面有教育、社福，這部分我想各縣市大概都有表示意見；而在基礎設施的部分，我想要更強調一點，就是雲林縣是一個很重要的農業生產基地，汛期也到了，颱風期也到了，這些基礎的設施都靠這些補助款，所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響。以上說明。"],["許委員宇甄：OK。所以對雲林縣這樣的農業縣，也是財政相對弱勢的縣市，刪減補助款37.6億，再加上剛剛您提到的全國的運動會，會造成的財務缺口我覺得可以說是雪上加霜啦，所以我想這個影響非常地大。我們再來聽一下宜蘭縣政府的部分，也是屬於財政相對弱勢的縣市。"],["主席：好，請吳秘書長。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下刪減一般性補助款27.3%，對宜蘭縣政府有什麼影響？"],["吳秘書長志宏：謝謝主席，謝謝委員，也給我們宜蘭這個機會在這邊發表一下。大概在去年，我們收到行政院的函，原核定的一般性補助款是93.6億，結果在今年刪除了一般性補助款25.56億，總共只剩下68.03億，大概衝擊到我們應優先支應的農民健保跟國民年金以及老農津貼的法定義務支出，而且要彌補中低收入、老人津貼還有身心障礙者的補助等必要的社會福利支出，其他對於六大社福津貼還有教育經費等等相關經費均有斷炊之虞，這是第一點。","當初我們也跟行政院主計總處反映，刪減了25.56億，我們縣市政府該怎麼辦？主計總處給我們的回應是，叫我們減少支出或者增加舉債。我跟各位報告，宜蘭縣到目前為止，迄今尚有累積短絀67億，長短期債務173億，最近這幾年，我們林姿妙縣長上任之後，總共對債務還款了38.57億，在112年好不容易從重度的債限調整到中度，要往輕度發展，主計總處竟然叫我們再增加舉債，這樣我們就勢必要走回頭路。","我想剛才也有委員提到，苗栗跟宜蘭的財政都是相當困難，這邊我們也是再度懇請行政院這邊能夠儘速恢復宜蘭縣原有的一般性補助款的額度。以上。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。主計長，你剛剛聽到，我想不管是雲林縣或宜蘭縣，他們都是財政相對弱勢的縣市，你也聽到這對他們的影響很大，不管是身障的、托育的縮減，以及老人供餐、營養午餐，還有一些基礎建設的部分，事實上都會受到很大的影響，所以請主計長回去要跟行政院長報告一下，真的要懸崖勒馬，不要剋扣地方的一般性補助款，讓他們能夠好好地為地方做事，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是不得不減，是這樣子。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","接著我們請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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5000多億再來前年中央是3757億再來"},{"start":55.405,"end":83.86,"text":"我們這幾年來稅收年年超徵都是幾千億幾百億中央不是沒錢啊那我請問一下部長你這些錢都是來自哪裡是不是來自22縣市各縣市的努力工商企業所有的稅收的來源集中在中央所以中央才變成這樣很有錢嘛"},{"start":84.861,"end":99.464,"text":"不然你的錢是哪裡來的我想我們的稅收基本上是政府和人民大家共同努力然後經濟成長的一個成果好 謝謝接著主席請主席長"},{"start":100.653,"end":115.823,"text":"陳主席長以及我們新北市政府的邱敬斌秘書長因為我們常常立委都會在聊天麻煩請新竹縣所以委員平常都很用心希望"},{"start":124.52,"end":152.854,"text":"可以為地方特別是弱勢團體社福團體未來國家的希望小朋友的照顧兒少的部分大家盡心盡力希望為地方來多爭取一點所以之前我跟我們新竹的林思敏林委員還有曾振全政委員他們一直覺得像新竹因為有竹科啊其實對台灣的"},{"start":155.473,"end":171.295,"text":"財政的貢獻非常非常大 新北的貢獻也非常非常多都是來自地方 大家片手之足 錢拿到中央結果今天居然要三地方的一般性的補助 有良心嗎"},{"start":172.878,"end":200.814,"text":"本席長期以來最關心的就是地方社福的問題老人的照顧長照的問題小朋友未來的教育的問題結果今天你們正式不做搞一些亂七八糟的事我請問一下主席長錢要花在刀口嘛你要改"},{"start":201.607,"end":220.945,"text":"全國改成中正路要改名要花多少錢這是內政部的內政部請問一下吳次長全國如果中正路要改名要花多少錢"},{"start":222.185,"end":241.332,"text":"跟委員報告目前無法估算因為要修改入名的部分還是有地方選擇那這個要有共識會不會超過1億會不會超過10億可能還是要另外估算統計一下那我請問一下搞一個大罷免要花多少錢這個可能中選會會比較清楚12億要花12億"},{"start":251.587,"end":279.916,"text":"所以我們發現很多事情中央事實上該花的花不該花的就不該花嘛你去搞一個請竹記長太陽能發電這幾年來花了多少錢這個不是我的業務所以我也不是清楚那你覺得中央的部分有什麼地方是不該花而花的"},{"start":282.523,"end":292.028,"text":"我們現在大部分都被刪減了所以現在輕微被刪減了很厲害所以很多都是連水電都出不來你摸著良心啊摸著良心喔"},{"start":293.896,"end":320.856,"text":"對這些地方的最基礎 最弱勢的照顧妳怎麼忍心要刪這些錢呢我們也不想刪啊 但是不得不啊妳有自愛難行的地方嗎刪了2076億 所以我們負益啊因為我們執行有困難妳有自愛難行的地方嗎對 所以我們自愛難行妳有錢準備花心思去改中正路妳有錢要去補貼台電一次就一千億 一千億 一千億二話不說就給"},{"start":322.452,"end":339.644,"text":"那你居然 我想像不到你看起來也是慈眉善目的你居然要砍地方社福的預算砍對年輕人的照顧砍對婦女的關懷主席我們現在請新北市那個新北市 邱秘書長"},{"start":347.135,"end":363.756,"text":"我們看得匪夷所思啊因為中央錢很多我剛剛都講了去年光是稅收就超徵五千多億你跟所有的這個弱勢團體跟婦女團體在那邊支出畢竟居然還要刪這些人的預算"},{"start":365.238,"end":375.05,"text":"請問如果他這樣刪的話對地方對這些弱勢團體影響的人士大概有多少對小朋友未來的營養午餐影響會不會很嚴重"},{"start":377.978,"end":390.981,"text":"好 那非常謝謝羅委員 我想委員一直非常關心弱勢 在新北的弱勢跟孩子的教育在這一次我剛剛有特別說明 這一次單單在社福預算的部分補助的經費的部分 三儲了16.121 減福的部分佔了35.86%"},{"start":397.223,"end":413.698,"text":"那當然在那個海龍的教育補助的經費7.6億減幅的部分是21.83那單單弱勢族群的補助的部分影響的影響人數就將近10萬人10萬人還不包括基礎建設還不包括其他教育的一些相關"},{"start":414.718,"end":433.254,"text":"設施的改善等等基礎建設裡面包括道路的整平以及包括橋樑的維護等等尤其台灣又是在低震帶這些安全設施其實都是人民基本生活安全上面所必須要保障的所以在昨天開會的時候所有同仁非常沉重的才告訴我說秘書長"},{"start":434.074,"end":459.18,"text":"這不是要調整來向的問題重點是我們不知道怎麼去面對這些的民眾怎麼去告訴他們這些事情要如何去做調整那這一點在新北市影響非常的大我們希望中央的部分對於一般性補助款的部分能夠盡快的撥補給我們尤其是新北市我們在過去的部分到目前為止我們還累積虧損了887億一年期的公共債務的部分還有940億"},{"start":460.64,"end":485.978,"text":"所以這個部分我們一直都在遵節開支希望能夠能夠在醫院上面能夠節省但是面對這樣子的一個預算的刪減其實我們其實沒有辦法負擔在這裡跟委員這邊報告那你會不會覺得很難過因為我們地方片手之足所有收的稅源這個財政的這個收支來源收了以後都給中央"},{"start":486.994,"end":507.345,"text":"結果中央變成來克扣地方的一般性的補助這樣合理嗎委員我剛剛有特別說明這個是我當公務員到現在為止開過最沉重的一次會然後我真的不知道答案為何我也不知道怎麼去回答我們同仁是那大家也可以感覺到今天早上"},{"start":508.235,"end":518.538,"text":"吳秉瑞其他委員說有做七屆有做六屆那我這邊做八屆了我從來也沒有看過中央是這樣蠻橫不講理的這樣亂搞而且影響的人是那麼多這些弱勢的社福團體這些小朋友這些媽媽這些老人怎麼辦啊"},{"start":531.496,"end":557.97,"text":"接著主席可不可以請新竹縣黃局長你能不能說明一下新竹縣因為附近有科學園區的關係事實上你們對中央的貢獻度也非常高那你面對現在來砍你們一般性的預算對你們的影響大不大因為我常常聽到林世民林委員他很積極在爭取啊"},{"start":559.824,"end":578.539,"text":"你可不可以說明一下好的 謝謝委員事實上就誠如委員講的我們新竹縣是全國出生率跟遷入率最高的一個縣市現在全國都是少子化剛剛王世堅委員也有提到可是我們新竹縣是為台灣的少子化做了很大的一個貢獻"},{"start":579.639,"end":591.717,"text":"那在整個招商引資的部分我們新竹縣也連續六年是招商評比的第一名也就是說在貢獻中央稅收的部分我們新竹縣跟新竹市事實上貢獻是非常大的"},{"start":592.264,"end":618.43,"text":"那這一次呢就是接到這個主計總署的通知去刪減我們的一般性補助款我們真的是不敢置信為什麼不敢置信因為我們今年二十幾年沒有修的財務法好不容易通過我們都來不及高興從今年二月到五月事實上財政部就因為稅收收入的關係就減薄我們的統籌分配稅款分別減薄一成五到四成五那現在一般性補助款呢"},{"start":622.016,"end":634.251,"text":"從五月份開始 主席總署又通知 又緩撥那基本上 而且甚至可能是刪除那這樣的話對我們地方政府造成很大的一個傷害那在一般性補助款的部分我們大概就減撥20.681那20.681這裡面的經費呢"},{"start":638.576,"end":661.093,"text":"我們有校舍的興建有新生兒還有包含那個免費的營養午餐然後還有一些弱勢的照顧我們為了讓我們新竹縣的年輕人願生能養所以我們在整個教育經費社福經費的部分我們投入很多那一般性補助款我們就把它用在刀口上可是我們沒有想到我們竹地總署居然"},{"start":662.475,"end":676.894,"text":"過去都沒有刪減的一般性補助款在這次做這麼大幅的一個刪減那另外我針對主席總署他剛剛主席長對中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的解釋我有很大的一個疑問因為第三條的規定中央為謀全國經濟平衡的發展"},{"start":678.897,"end":693.58,"text":"得市直轄市及縣市政府財政收支狀況來作以補助而不是市中央的財政狀況還有你預算變資的情形而且這個經費當時不管是統籌分配稅款或一般性補助款在去年都是由中央核定的"},{"start":694.221,"end":712.911,"text":"那你核定了以後你現在片面的又把它刪減如果這樣可以做的話那請問一下我縣市政府的預算如果經過議會刪減我可不可以去刪對鄉鎮市公所的補助經費呢所以這部分的話我們有很大一個質疑我們希望主席總署能夠懸崖勒馬趕快把應該撥給地方政府的經費趕快撥給我們謝謝委員"},{"start":716.712,"end":735.94,"text":"好 謝謝黃局長我們也共同希望足跡總署這裡可以懸崖勒馬不要恣意妄為更不要欺負這些弱勢族群這些父女朋友老人以及兒童未來的國家的希望謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":921,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（13時7分）謝謝主席，請財政部部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長，你好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：我們最近這10年稅收年年超徵，去年超徵多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年中央的部分是……"],["羅委員明才：全部加起來。"],["莊部長翠雲：全國嗎？我要找一下。"],["羅委員明才：全年大概多少？最近這5年。"],["莊部長翠雲：去年是5,283億。"],["羅委員明才：5,283億？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["羅委員明才：所以是五千多億，再來前年呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：中央是3,757億。"],["羅委員明才：好，再來呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：再來什麼？"],["羅委員明才：我們這幾年來稅收年年超徵，都是幾千億、幾百億，中央不是沒錢哪！那我請問一下部長，你這些錢都是來自哪裡？是不是來自22個縣市的努力？把工商企業所有稅收的來源集中在中央，所以中央才變成這樣很有錢嘛！不然你的錢是從哪裡來的？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想我們的稅收基本上是政府和人民大家共同努力然後經濟成長的成果。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。主席，我接著要請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["羅委員明才：還有新北市政府的邱秘書長。"],["主席：請邱敬斌秘書長。"],["羅委員明才：麻煩再請新竹縣的代表。"],["主席：好，請新竹縣主計處黃處長。"],["羅委員明才：所有的委員平常都很用心，希望可以為地方，特別是弱勢團體、社福團體，還有未來國家的希望，小朋友的照顧、兒少的部分，大家盡心盡力希望為地方多爭取一點。所以我跟新竹的林思銘委員還有鄭正鈐委員，他們一直覺得新竹因為有竹科，其實對臺灣的財政貢獻非常非常大，新北的貢獻也非常非常多，這都是來自地方，大家胼手胝足把錢拿到中央，結果今天居然要刪地方的一般性補助款，有良心嗎？本席長期以來最關心的就是地方社福問題、老人照顧、長照問題、小朋友未來的教育問題，結果今天你們正事不做，搞一些亂七八糟的事。","請問主計長，錢要花在刀口，全國的中正路要改名要花多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是內政部的業務。"],["羅委員明才：請問內政部吳次長，如果全國的中正路要改名要花多少錢？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，目前尚無法估算。"],["羅委員明才：無法估算？"],["吳次長堂安：因為要修改路名的部分，還是由地方權責，這個要有共識。"],["羅委員明才：會不會超過1億？"],["吳次長堂安：這個現在沒辦法估算。"],["羅委員明才：會不會超過10億？很難講喔！"],["吳次長堂安：可能還是要另外估算。"],["羅委員明才：好，你統計一下。我請問一下搞一個大罷免要花多少錢？"],["吳次長堂安：這個可能中選會會比較清楚。"],["羅委員明才：12億，要花12億，所以我們發現很多事情中央事實上該花的花，不該花的就不該花。請問主計長，太陽能發電這幾年來花了多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個不是我的業務，所以我也不清楚。"],["羅委員明才：你覺得中央的部分有什麼地方是不該花而花的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們現在大部分都被刪減了，經費被刪減得很厲害，所以很多部分，連水電費都付不出來。"],["羅委員明才：你摸著良心，對地方最基礎、最弱勢的照顧，你怎麼忍心要刪這些錢呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們也不想刪，但是不得不，因為我們被刪了2,076億，所以我們提出覆議，因為我們執行有困難。"],["羅委員明才：你有窒礙難行的地方嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以我們窒礙難行。"],["羅委員明才：你有錢準備花心思去改中正路，你有錢要去補貼台電，一次就1,000億、1,000億、1,000億，二話不說就給，我想像不到，你看起來也是慈眉善目的，你居然要砍地方的社福預算，砍對年輕人的照顧，砍對婦女的關懷。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，刪減的部分……"],["羅委員明才：主席，我們現在請新北市。"],["主席：新北市邱秘書長。"],["邱秘書長敬斌：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：邱秘書長，我們看得匪夷所思，因為中央錢很多，我剛剛都講了，去年光是稅收就超徵五千多億，你跟所有的弱勢團體、婦女團體在那邊錙銖必較，居然還要刪這些預算，請問如果它這樣刪的話，對地方、對這些弱勢團體影響的人次大概有多少？對小朋友未來的營養午餐影響會不會很嚴重？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：非常謝謝羅委員，委員一直非常關心弱勢，在新北的弱勢及孩子的教育，我剛剛有特別說明，這一次單單在社福預算部分的補助經費刪除了16.12億，減幅占了35.86%；孩童教育補助經費7.6億，減幅是21.83%，單單弱勢族群補助的部分，影響人數就將近10萬人。"],["羅委員明才：10萬人！我的天啊！"],["邱秘書長敬斌：還不包括基礎建設，還不包括其他教育的一些相關設施改善等等，基礎建設裡面包括道路整平以及橋梁維護等等，尤其臺灣又是在地震帶，這些安全設施其實都是人民基本生活安全上面所必須要保障的。所以昨天開會的時候，所有同仁非常沉重地告訴我：秘書長，這不是要調整哪一項的問題，重點是我們不知道怎麼去面對這些民眾，怎麼去告訴他們這些事情，要如何去做調整。這一點在新北市影響非常的大，我們希望中央對於一般性補助款的部分，能夠儘快地撥補給我們，尤其是新北市到目前為止還累積虧損887億，一年期公共債務的部分有940億，所以我們一直都在撙節開支，希望在預算上面能夠節省，但是面對這樣子的預算刪減，我們其實沒有辦法負擔，在這裡跟委員報告。"],["羅委員明才：你會不會覺得很難過，因為地方胼手胝足，所有收的稅源、財政的收支來源收了以後都給中央，結果中央變成來剋扣地方的一般性補助，這樣合理嗎？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：委員，我剛剛有特別說明，這個是我當公務人員到現在為止開過最沉重的一次會，我真的不知道答案為何，我也不知道怎麼去回答我們同仁。"],["羅委員明才：大家也可以感覺到，今天早上吳秉叡和其他委員說他們有的做7屆、有的做6屆，我在這邊做8屆了，我從來也沒有看過中央是這樣蠻橫不講理的亂搞，而且影響的人、事那麼多，這些弱勢的社福團體、這些小朋友、這些媽媽、這些老人怎麼辦？接著，主席，可否請新竹縣黃局長？"],["主席：新竹縣代表黃局長。"],["黃局長國峯：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：你能不能說明一下？新竹縣因為附近有科學園區的關係，事實上你們對中央的貢獻度也非常高，面對現在砍你們的一般性預算，對你們的影響大不大，因為我常常聽到林思銘委員在講，他很積極在爭取，你可不可以說明一下？"],["黃局長國峯：好的，謝謝委員。事實上誠如委員講的，我們新竹縣是全國出生率和遷入率最高的一個縣市，現在全國都是少子化，剛剛王世堅委員也有提到，可是我們新竹縣為臺灣的少子化做了很大的貢獻，在整個招商引資的部分，我們新竹縣也連續6年是招商評比的第一名，也就是在貢獻中央稅收的部分，新竹縣和新竹市事實上貢獻是非常大的。這一次接到主計總處的通知，要刪減我們的一般性補助款，我們真的是不敢置信，為什麼不敢置信？因為今年二十幾年沒有修的財劃法好不容易通過，我們都來不及高興，事實上，從今年2月到5月，財政部就因為稅收收入的關係減撥我們的統籌分配稅款，分別減撥一成五到四成五，現在一般性補助款從5月份開始，主計總處又通知緩撥，而且甚至可能是刪除，這樣的話對我們地方政府造成很大的傷害。在一般性補助款的部分，我們大概就減撥20.68億，20.68億的經費包括校舍興建、新生兒、免費營養午餐，還有一些弱勢的照顧，我們為了讓新竹縣的年輕人願生能養，所以我們在整個教育經費、社福經費的部分投入很多，一般性補助款我們就把它用在刀口上。可是我們沒有想到過去都沒有刪減的一般性補助款，主計總處居然在這次做了這麼大幅的刪減。","另外，針對主計總處主計長對「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法」的解釋，我有很大的疑問，因為第三條規定中央為謀全國之經濟平衡發展，得視直轄市及縣（市）政府財政收支狀況酌予補助，而不是視中央的財政狀況，還有預算編制的情形。而且這個經費當時不管是統籌分配稅款或一般性補助款，在去年都是由中央核定，核定了以後，現在又片面地把它刪減，如果這樣可以做的話，請問一下，縣市政府的預算如果經過議會刪減，我可不可以去刪對鄉鎮市公所的補助經費呢？所以這部分我們有很大的質疑，我們希望主計總處能夠懸崖勒馬，趕快把應該撥給地方政府的經費撥給我們，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝黃局長。我們也共同希望主計總處可以懸崖勒馬，不要恣意妄為，更不要欺負這些弱勢族群、這些婦女朋友、老人以及兒童──未來的國家希望，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，新竹稅務局黃局長也講得很清楚，謝謝。","接著請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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劉副市長秘書長秘書長好我想秘書長今天來立法院列席應該對於地方的財政"},{"start":348.84,"end":369.585,"text":"非常的清楚啦一般補助款基本上在處理的是財政收支差額的部分嘛我說的沒有錯吧這次行政院違法科扣百分之二十五27點多我們總共刪除的平均是27點多新北市被刪了多少30.4億被刪除了30.4億對新北市造成什麼影響"},{"start":376.627,"end":392.86,"text":"跟委員報告這一次的一般性補助款的30.4億的部分主要有三項一個是社會福利一個是教育補助的經費還有一個是基本設施其中在社會福利的部分三減的16.12億占全部占整個補助的35.86%"},{"start":395.282,"end":421.612,"text":"教育的補助的部分7.6億減幅是21.83%基本設施的補助的經費的部分3.6.72億佔24.86%跟委員這邊補充報告單單這裡面在社會福利的部分我們最主要的是包括身心障礙者的生活的補助中低收入老人津貼等等還有弱勢兒童等等相關的補助單單弱勢族群的部分影響的人數就將高達10萬人"},{"start":424.133,"end":451.573,"text":"不包括還不包括基礎建設等等教育的這些相關的這些這些我們的那個市民的這些那個影響所以這一次的那個一般性補助館的刪減的部分確實對我們影響非常的大那市長非常的重視這個問題所以昨天呢要我跟邀集各局處開了這個會跟委員報告這是我開過最沉重的一次的會因為在這個會議當中同仁提出了一個問題他們告訴我說秘書長"},{"start":452.469,"end":480.586,"text":"我們國家編列預算國家建設不就是為了保障人民的生活生命安全等等這些基本需求刪除了這些項目我們已經不知道面對市民該如何去做說明這件事情那他們也想知道當時在刪除的時候那是不是有個優先數據中央可不可以告訴我們這怎麼處理因為我們實在不知道如何去處理這件事情也希望中央能夠盡快把一般性補助款的部分撥補給地方政府 謝謝好 謝謝西北市的代表"},{"start":481.947,"end":508.078,"text":"幾個基本的立場一定要講清楚啊現在我在PPT上面秀的是什麼113年中央政府總預算通案的決議跟114年中央政府總預算通案的決議你把前後兩個年度啊通案的決議拿出來比一比啊只要看得懂中文的人啊有基本識字能力的人啊就會知道在114年中央政府總預算裡面"},{"start":509.793,"end":532.628,"text":"我們有刪一塊錢的地方補助款嗎我跟大家報告一塊都沒有刪啦一塊都沒有刪啦113年的時候還刪了4%我為什麼114年在提這個案子的時候我地方補助款我一塊都不刪因為我知道地方需要嘛"},{"start":533.717,"end":560.432,"text":"目前中央地方的財政劃分收支制度套用我20年前在民進黨的台灣智庫所參加的會議就說要改啦只是民進黨拿到權力了以後不管是錢還是權全部一把抓結果什麼我們要求要刪的中央各機關及所屬"},{"start":562.211,"end":589.687,"text":"結果把600多億刪到地方的補助款去違法妄為啊今天早上還有民進黨的立委在那邊說那誰叫你們要通刪啊你們通刪就是不曉得要刪什麼東西所以才用通刪拜託民進黨的立委睜大眼睛看啊你們113年中央政府所預算有沒有通刪是不是通刪113年的時候你地方補助款有被苛扣嗎"},{"start":591.936,"end":619.326,"text":"來 請新北市那個113年的時候我們當時的一般性的補助款是101億那那個原則上在當時其實是沒有因為到今年是很特別產生這種錢所以嘛 你就看113年中央政府總預算最後一項是什麼如果經過總算沒有到達299億就要3到299億嘛完全按照以前的方式做我還特別把地方補助款"},{"start":620.663,"end":646.492,"text":"把它拿掉就清楚的告訴我們的行政院一塊都不准刪現在卓榮泰在裝著什麼裝文盲嗎看不識字嗎目無法紀啊提案單寫得這麼清楚了然後最後我只講一件事我們那個時候就擔心就擔心民進黨政府會動手腳財政收支劃分法30條我們還加了第三項"},{"start":647.793,"end":676.181,"text":"一般補助款不可以少於修正施行前預算邊列數去年夏天今年要給地方補助款不就合訂了嗎去年就合訂了今年修法生效以後膽子好大修法生效以後還找地方政府現在卓榮他要威脅立法院什麼給我追加預算現在他搞擄人兒署喔"},{"start":677.742,"end":689.675,"text":"把地方政府當落票我希望那個新北市的代表回去轉告侯友宜市長這件事情硬起來絕對要硬起來不可以讓卓榮泰這樣違法亂搞謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":864,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時56分）謝謝主席。開始詢答以前，先請教主席一個問題。我剛剛聽委員會裡面的助理跟我回報，說談好了，今天這個案子在委員會不處理，是嗎？"],["主席：這個是今天早上的時候……具體有沒有談好，等一下要請問一下賴委員，因為我是代他當主席。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛到主席臺詢問……"],["主席：等一下我會詢問一下再跟你回答。"],["黃委員國昌：是，主席不要介意，因為你現在是代主席，我知道也不是你答應這件事情的，不過因為你現在在主席的位子上，針對會議進行詢問這件事情，我只能夠請教你。因為我剛剛在前面跟代主席詢問這件事情的時候，旁邊的議事人員說，似乎是財委會兩個召委就這件事情已經談好了，今天這個案子不處理。確定有這件事嗎？"],["主席：對，黨團大概有協商，就是所有的委員……"],["黃委員國昌：誰跟誰協商？"],["主席：應該是黨團，應該不會只有召委協商，是不是？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！我是台灣民眾黨黨團的召委，我從頭到尾不知道這件事啊！"],["主席：黃委員，這樣子……"],["黃委員國昌：今天要處理的是台灣民眾黨黨團提出來的案子耶，沒有問過台灣民眾黨黨團，兩個人私底下喬好，不處理喔？"],["主席：這樣子好嗎？您可以先質詢，我現在打電話請教一下相關的人員，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以！我先表明一個基本的立場，如果今天民進黨的立委藉由著霸占主席臺就可以為所欲為，就聽他們的意思不處理，這還像什麼國會啊！這麼多地方政府的代表來，大家為了卓榮泰的違法濫權都炸鍋了，我們聽到大家的心聲，急著趕快提出這個決議來，也同意付委審查，幾個民進黨的立委來鬧就不處理喔？現在臺灣是什麼立法院？耍流氓的最大嗎？耍流氓最大嗎？可以這樣搞喔？我清楚地表達台灣民眾黨黨團的立場，我絕對不贊成！民進黨委員占著主席臺，就可以用威脅的方式！"],["主席：這樣子，黃委員，我現在既然代主席，我跟您回答，因為現在是進行報告事項，這件事情的議案是討論事項，討論事項等一下如果法定人數足夠的時候，我們就處理，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。有請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主計長好。有關於這一次違法濫刪地方補助款的事情，龔明鑫說這是你的主意，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有提過好幾個方案給行政院來做參考。"],["黃委員國昌：你們提供幾個方案給行政院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：3個方案。"],["黃委員國昌：3個方案，刪地方補助款是其中之一，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那其他兩個方案呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：刪債息。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：債息。"],["黃委員國昌：然後第二個方案呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：各刪一半。"],["黃委員國昌：那其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為本身債息我們當初跟財政部協調……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，你就針對我的問題回答就好了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員國昌：其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎？因為接下來我沒有打算要在今天質詢的時候去跟你爭執合法、不合法的問題，有非常多的學者專家都已經站出來講了，就是明顯的違法嘛！結果你們今天財政部也好、主計總處的報告也好，臉皮有夠厚的，竟然說合法合規，你敢寫，我還不敢看啦！愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫，說服不了一般的學者專家，像政大財政系的陳國樑教授、黃耀輝教授，每一個都出來罵，但我們現在的行政院長卓榮泰死豬不怕滾水燙，我就是要這樣惡搞，要不然你們要怎麼樣？現在在臺灣是耍流氓最大、不要臉最大，我講的就是卓榮泰！接下來政治責任的追究談清楚就好了，你說你提供三個方案，最後挑的是全部刪地方補助款，做這個決策的人是不是卓榮泰？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是行政院來做決定的。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院它沒有辦法做決定，一定是人做決定。其他兩個方案可不可以送來給立法院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：今天下班以前送來，可以嗎？就讓全體國人看看嘛！看主計長提了什麼方案給卓榮泰，最後是卓榮泰選的嘛！不是你的鍋，我不會要你背，不是你的鍋，我不會要你背，我只是要把這個責任給釐清清楚。不好意思，今天有新北市的代表來嗎？是不是可以請新北市的代表？"],["主席：請新北市邱秘書長。"],["邱秘書長敬斌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好，我想秘書長今天來立法院列席，你應該對於地方的財政非常的清楚，一般補助款基本上在處理的是財政收支差額的部分，我說的沒有錯吧？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：這次行政院違法剋扣25%……"],["邱秘書長敬斌：百分之二十七點多，我們總共刪除的平均是百分之二十七點多。"],["黃委員國昌：新北市被刪了多少？是30.4億嗎？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：對，30.4億。"],["黃委員國昌：被刪除了30.4億？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：對。"],["黃委員國昌：對新北市造成什麼影響？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：跟委員報告，這一次一般性補助款30.4億的部分主要有三項，一個是社會福利，一個是教育補助的經費，還有一個是基本設施。其中在社會福利部分刪減的16.12億占整個補助的35.86%；教育補助的部分是7.6億，減幅是21.83%；基本設施補助經費的部分刪減6.72億，占24.86%。跟委員補充報告，在社會福利的部分，我們最主要是包括身心障礙者生活補助、中低收入老人津貼還有弱勢兒童等等相關的補助，單單弱勢族群的部分受影響的人數就高達10萬人，還不包括基礎建設、教育這些相關補助對我們市民的影響，所以這一次一般性補助款刪減的部分確實對我們的影響非常大，那市長非常的重視這個問題，所以昨天要我邀集各局處開了這個會，跟委員報告，這是我開過最沉重的一次會議，因為在這個會議中同仁提出了一個問題，他們告訴我：秘書長，我們國家編列預算做國家建設，不就是為了保障人民的生活、生命安全等等這些基本需求，刪除了這些項目，我們已經不知道面對市民該如何去說明這件事情。他們也想知道，當時在刪除的時候是不是有一個優先順序，中央可不可以告訴我們要怎麼處理？因為我們實在不知道如何去處理這件事情，也希望中央能夠儘快把一般性補助款的部分撥補給地方政府，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝新北市的代表，有幾個基本的立場一定要講清楚，現在我在PPT上面秀的是什麼？就是113年中央政府總預算通案的決議跟114年中央政府總預算通案的決議，你把前後兩個年度通案的決議拿出來比一比，只要是看得懂中文的人、有基本識字能力的人，就會知道在114年中央政府總預算裡面我們有刪一塊錢的地方補助款嗎？我跟大家報告，一塊都沒有刪，連一塊都沒有刪，在113年的時候還刪了4%，我為什麼在114年提這個案子的時候對地方補助款我一塊都不刪？因為我知道地方需要嘛！目前中央、地方的財政劃分收支制度，套用我20年前在民進黨的台灣智庫所參加的會議，就有說要改了，只是民進黨在拿到權力以後，不管是錢還是權，全部一把抓，結果是什麼？我們要求要刪的中央各機關及所屬，結果把六百多億刪到地方的補助款去，違法妄為啊！今天早上還有民進黨的立委在那邊說：誰叫你們要通刪？你們通刪就是不曉得要刪什麼東西，所以才用通刪。拜託民進黨的立委睜大眼睛看，你們113年的中央政府總預算有沒有通刪？是不是通刪？在113年的時候地方補助款有被剋扣嗎？來，請新北市說明。"],["邱秘書長敬斌：在113年的時候，我們當時的一般性補助款是101億，原則上在當時其實是沒有，因為在今年是很特別產生這種……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以你就看113年中央政府總預算最後一項是寫什麼？就是如果經過總刪沒有到達299億，就要刪到299億嘛！都完全按照以前的方式做，我還特別把地方補助款拿掉，就清楚的告訴我們的行政院一塊都不准刪。現在卓榮泰在裝什麼？是裝文盲嗎？是不識字嗎？目無法紀啊！提案單寫得這麼清楚了。","最後我只講一件事，我們那個時候就擔心民進黨政府會動手腳，在財政收支劃分法第三十條我們還加了第三項，就是一般補助款不可以少於修正施行前預算編列數，今年要給地方的補助款不是在去年夏天就核定了嗎？去年就核定了，在今年修法生效以後，膽子好大，修法生效以後還找地方政府！現在卓榮泰要威脅立法院什麼？就是給我追加預算，現在是在搞擄人勒贖喔？把地方政府當肉票喔？我希望新北市的代表回去轉告侯友宜市長，這件事情硬起來，絕對要硬起來，不可以讓卓榮泰這樣違法亂搞，謝謝。"],["邱秘書長敬斌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接著我們請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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現在是我們國家 我們的國安問題啦那我跟妳提這件事情就是說 提到說 上個月有一則新聞有一位女法官 那麼她在我們台北市的某個診所做了人工生殖手術 要求職"},{"start":132.39,"end":148.613,"text":"結果這一筆花費花了37萬元 理所當然這應該列入他所得稅申報列舉扣除額嘛但是竟然被國稅局把它否定掉了"},{"start":150.01,"end":177.83,"text":"國稅局說不行 說為什麼不行說啊 這一家診所必須是會計記錄完備正確的醫院啦會計記錄完備正確的醫院天啊 國稅局到最重要的關頭的時候欸 國稅局跑出來啦意思就是說 這樣子你花費 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地價稅 你的所得稅繳了沒你家有沒有欠稅 可以這樣嗎那如果民眾受害"},{"start":416.889,"end":428.334,"text":"被搶被偷去警察局報案 警察局也可以這樣要求囉你要帶稅單來三年份的稅單通通完備才可以報案 是這樣嗎在民眾有所求的時候 欸 財政部出來臨門一腳財政部可以這樣嗎"},{"start":438.134,"end":464.207,"text":"你認為呢 可以嗎委員說得很適合那剛剛舉的例子當然也不會成立啦也不會說要求他要付稅單你還沒有做而已啦不會啦 不會這樣子做部長 我跟你相處這一年來我知道你確實是奉公守法啦我相信 但是我認為你就是過度保守跟我講的嘛 你就扛著這個十字架橫的"},{"start":466.509,"end":468.815,"text":"就是我們國家的稅收值得"},{"start":470.14,"end":492.732,"text":"就是我們國有財產誰都說想搶走你的十字架你的意思是這樣這個是沒錯但是其實我們的相關規定也在因為這一次在五月的時候我們也做修正了相關的規定同時我們會去有修正了嗎有修正啦五月二十八號已經做修正啦已經做修正嗎對五月二十八號五月二十八號已經修正相關的規定五月二十八號喔那就上個"},{"start":496.474,"end":523.431,"text":"前幾天就對了前幾天你們有修正那很好很好你們這樣做很好部長我既然這樣你已經修正上個禮拜修正就對了那要記得通知這些先前有受到危害的這幾位民眾包括這位女法官好不好這個部分的回溯適用的部分我們還比較了解"},{"start":526.395,"end":549.732,"text":"5月18日以後才算 不算 我強烈質疑我在想你連睡覺休息的時候 你做夢都夢到要怎麼樣來加強增稅 趕快質疑看我剛剛講的這警察局 消防局 你可以考慮看看不會我在想你可能是這樣子 你就是太過本位主義"},{"start":551.153,"end":565.227,"text":"太過本位主義好不好那剛剛我講的這個醫院這個齁我跟你講你們說要會計記錄完備正確的醫院結果這一項其實多數醫院是不曉得他們不曉得說你所謂的會計記錄"},{"start":567.469,"end":590.222,"text":"完備正確這一項他還以為說你們去查查稅那他們是這個醫院都很正常醫院診所正常有報稅繳稅以為說這樣就OK不是欸你們這一項標準是要這些醫院主動來跟你們申報結果啊我去查了一下我們現在1601家有座"},{"start":593.035,"end":607.924,"text":"有那個自費診所的這些自費診所醫院有做收費的1601家只有6家 只有6家申請也就是說只有6家通過你所謂的報稅完備記錄 記錄完整"},{"start":615.427,"end":637.694,"text":"只有六家那所有民眾如果未來我剛講的我們國家政策要提高生育率鼓勵生產的時候那民眾女性同胞們碰到這樣子的事情最後要把這一筆費用列為扣除額的時候又要被你們阻撓了因為那一家醫院會計紀錄不夠完備不是這樣嗎啊"},{"start":646.872,"end":662.756,"text":"你連站著都在想怎麼收稅不是跟委員報告其實我們的相關規定會去調整跟修正也已經放寬了在委員所關心的事情我們也在努力在做我們就把這個規定提供給委員你把這個影片給我看好不好五六天前而已謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時44分）謝謝主席，請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：莊部長，我們臺灣今年正式邁入超高齡社會，相較於日本，他們是花了11年的時間，從高齡社會進入到超高齡社會，而我們臺灣只有7年，7年馬上就直接跨入到超高齡社會，為什麼這麼快速？因為二十多年來我們的生育率急遽下滑，以我們現在的統計數字而言，目前我們每一位女性的國人同胞只生0.8位小孩，相較於生育率已經很低的日本而言，日本每位女性平均生1.3位小孩，以上個月（4月份）的生育率而言，我們4月份全國僅出生8,684位嬰兒，相較於去年同期少了2,069位，少了20%，所以生育率急速而且嚴重的下滑，現在是我們的國安問題。","我跟你提這件事情是因為，上個月有一則新聞說，有一位女法官在臺北市的某個診所做了人工生殖手術要求子，這一筆花費花了37萬元，理所當然，這應該列入所得稅申報的列舉扣除額，但是竟然被國稅局否定掉了，國稅局說不行，為什麼不行？國稅局說這一家診所必須是會計紀錄完備正確的醫院。天啊！到最重要的關頭的時候，國稅局跑出來了，意思就是說這樣子你的這個花費就不能列入扣除額。我認為這個是很荒唐的，部長，生育率下滑，我們鼓勵全民、鼓勵女性同胞們大家來生產報國，這是國家政策，我們國家應該要鼓勵才對耶！結果竟然財政部用個根本跟財政部截然無關的事情在阻撓，你不覺得這很莫名其妙嗎？你知不知道有這個事情？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，這個事情我知道，面對我們少子女化的情況，政府有各項的對策，在稅的部分也有相關的租稅優惠來做鼓勵，至於要報所得稅的時候，你所要列舉的生育或者是醫藥的費用，要做列舉的話，我們國稅局在審核的時候必須要有些相關的單據，這些單據必須具有一定的可信度跟信賴度，也是避免民眾拿到一些不可信的資料……"],["王委員世堅：要求子、生小孩，這會是假的嗎？有那麼多醫療的紀錄，這個會是假的嗎？如果質疑的話，請衛福部去查嘛！不是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於相關的一些證明文件或這個部分……"],["王委員世堅：如果照你說的，那只要這個醫院它的報稅紀錄很完備、很正確，它就可以來作假，你也不會發現，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，所以這個部分……"],["王委員世堅：要生子、求子是多嚴肅的事情，這個會作假？這個有太多醫學、科學的紀錄證明，這怎麼會作假呢？不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，所以這個部分我們財政部也進行了相關的檢討，也修正了一些審核的要點，裡面的規定我們也做了適度的放寬，未來我們也會做放寬……"],["王委員世堅：這個叫「適度放寬」喔？你現在就把它否決掉了，不是嗎？你不是就否決掉了嗎？我舉例，我們的政策鼓勵居住正義，我們就說如果繳納租金，有租金支出特別扣除額，就是可以申報租金支出的特別扣除額，針對這個部分，我們只要求房客租屋有沒有契約、是不是真的有付款這樣就好，我們會去管到租屋的房東房屋稅有沒有繳、地價稅有沒有繳、所得稅有沒有繳？你要查房東有沒有繳稅、有沒有完備的報稅紀錄是另外一回事，那應當去查，可是這跟我們要鼓勵房客、讓他們的租金可以列特別扣除額無關，不是這樣嗎？同樣地，我們現在要鼓勵生產，不是嗎？如果每件事情……","我今天問你這件事情，看起來是小事，只有我認為是大事，這個突顯了財政部的本位主義，你們的本位主義這麼重！部長，如果照這樣，以後消防隊去救火、打火，就先問一下火災受災戶：你的租金繳了沒？房屋稅、地價稅、所得稅繳了沒？你家有沒有欠稅？可以這樣嗎？如果民眾受害、被搶、被偷，去警察局報案，警察局也可以這樣要求，要他們帶稅單來，3年份的稅單統統完備才可以報案，是這樣嗎？在民眾有所求的時候，財政部出來臨門一腳，財政部可以這樣嗎？你認為呢？可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員說的很是，剛剛舉的例子當然也不會成立，也不會要求他要附稅單……"],["王委員世堅：你還沒有做而已！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦，不會這樣子做。事實上跟委員報告……"],["王委員世堅：部長，我跟你說，我跟你相處這一年來，我知道你確實是奉公守法，我相信，但我認為你就是過度保守，就像我講的，你就扛著這個十字架，橫的就是我們國家的稅收，直的就是我們國有財產，誰都休想搶走你的十字架！你的意思是這樣……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，跟委員報告……"],["王委員世堅：這個是沒錯，但是……"],["莊部長翠雲：其實我們的相關規定也因為這一次在5月的時候就修正了，同時我們會去輔導……"],["王委員世堅：有修正了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有修正了……"],["王委員世堅：我剛剛講的那一條有修正嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：5月28號已經做修正了，也放寬……"],["王委員世堅：已經做修正了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，5月28號……"],["王委員世堅：這是上個月發生的新聞耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：5月28號已經修正相關的規定……"],["王委員世堅：5月28號？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["王委員世堅：那就是前幾天就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，修正相關規定了。"],["王委員世堅：好，前幾天你們有修正了？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：那很好！很好！你們這樣做很好。部長，既然這樣，你已經修正了，上個禮拜修正就對了，那要記得通知先前有受到危害的這幾位民眾，包括這位女法官，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分的回溯適用，我們還必須要瞭解……"],["王委員世堅：你又來了！5月28號以後才算？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["王委員世堅：部長，我強烈質疑，我在想，你連睡覺、休息的時候，做夢都夢到要怎麼樣加強徵稅，要趕快……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["王委員世堅：我剛剛講的警察局、消防局，你可以考慮看看。"],["莊部長翠雲：不會。"],["王委員世堅：我在想你可能是這樣子。"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，我不會這樣想。"],["王委員世堅：你就是太過本位主義，好不好？剛剛我講的醫院的部分，你們說要會計紀錄完備正確的醫院，結果這一項其實多數醫院是不曉得的，他們不曉得你所謂的會計紀錄完備正確這一項，還以為你們去查查稅，他們醫院、診所也都很正常，有報稅、繳稅，以為這樣就OK，不是耶！你們這一項標準是要這些醫院主動來跟你們申報，結果我去查了一下，現在1,601家有做自費診所的醫院、有做收費的，只有6家申請，也就是說，只有6家通過你所謂的報稅紀錄完備正確，只有6家耶！所有民眾如果未來……就像我剛剛講的，我們國家政策要提高生育率、鼓勵生產的時候，民眾、女性同胞們碰到這樣子的事情，最後要把這筆費用列為扣除額的時候，又要被你們阻撓，因為那家醫院會計紀錄不夠完備，不是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是。"],["王委員世堅：你連站著都在想怎麼收稅、怎麼徵稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，跟委員報告，其實我們的相關規定會去調整跟修正，也已經放寬了，委員所關心的事情我們已經努力在做……"],["王委員世堅：好，5月28號……"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["王委員世堅：你說5月28號，就上禮拜的事情，五、六天前嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們就把這個規定提供給委員。"],["王委員世堅：好，你把這個影印給我看，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["王委員世堅：五、六天前而已。好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：這個問題上個禮拜李彥秀委員有質詢過，所以後來就修正了。謝謝王委員。","接著我們請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828a601d30f017dd3b169516374867620cee4d45e0249ca5227aa60440c46ce58cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:44:21 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本席請洪部長學恩好部長好 本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空"},{"start":37.108,"end":55.314,"text":"所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事養老委員有提版本本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任這個可以入法"},{"start":55.914,"end":80.301,"text":"那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個"},{"start":83.424,"end":94.885,"text":"這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何"},{"start":95.742,"end":116.52,"text":"我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以可以做一些研議討論的開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本"},{"start":117.95,"end":131.359,"text":"行政院可以有版本啊所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個"},{"start":133.681,"end":161.951,"text":"想法跟委員報告其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想委員會裡面有做成一個組決議這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性那三個月內進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項"},{"start":164.494,"end":191.215,"text":"可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本"},{"start":192.196,"end":202.589,"text":"那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分 部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為"},{"start":208.052,"end":226.987,"text":"就是有關 因為你們就是大概幅度是4%左右這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會"},{"start":227.828,"end":233.23,"text":"來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影"},{"start":247.987,"end":264.704,"text":"有可能嗎那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嗎那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開但是"},{"start":266.245,"end":284.735,"text":"這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎"},{"start":285.916,"end":300.874,"text":"呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道"},{"start":301.794,"end":320.907,"text":"在這個會議裡面他的會議記錄或者是應該發言的紀要其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀要是紀要是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程"},{"start":325.58,"end":351.237,"text":"我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大陸的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開"},{"start":352.216,"end":380.357,"text":"不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以"},{"start":381.198,"end":404.414,"text":"所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時44分）謝謝主席，本席請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。本席要感謝楊曜委員，剛好他所質詢的也是本席想要就教部長的，因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友，我想勞工朋友每天打拚，他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空。有關勞保年金最終責任入法這件事，楊曜委員有提版本，本席也有提版本，我們希望能夠把撥補法制化，政府負最後支付責任可以入法。因為去年卓院長剛上任，本席在總質詢的時候，卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項，您剛剛也公開表達您對政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度，那本席要請教你，你跟卓院長針對一千多萬名勞工關心的這件事情，不只卓院長公開承諾過，您也持開放態度，你們有討論過嗎？還有你們目前的共識是如何？"],["洪部長申翰：現在不管是行政院或勞動部，我們對這個議題是持開放態度，我們認為是可以做一些研議及討論的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所謂開放跟研議，那就是沒有結果，剛剛楊曜委員還很客氣地說你們沒有提版本，本席希望勞動部也可以提版本，行政院可以有版本啊！如果你們說持開放態度卻沒有作為，其實就是在欺騙民眾，或者是你們沒有版本沒關係，那你們有沒有一個期程或是你們目前的想法如何？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，其實在5月中的一次委員會當中，衛環委員會有作成一項主決議，這項主決議是請我們針對最終責任入法的可行性進行評估……"],["徐委員欣瑩：三個月內對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們也在啟動這個評估。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息，因為開放嘛！然後卓院長又將其列為最優先事項。請你們努力好嗎？部長，可以努力吧？"],["洪部長申翰：可以得到一個可行性評估。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以努力吧！我們一定要替勞工爭取。","再來是有關最低工資的部分，身為勞動部長，您一定也知道很多勞工朋友都希望我們的最低工資能夠反映實際生活的成本，所以大家一直希望修正的決策公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況，針對這個部分，你們有沒有什麼作為？目前幅度大概是4%左右嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：相關的公式目前都是按照最低工資法的程序來進行，這個月的月底其實也會針對最低工資召開諮詢會，藉此了解勞資……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是諮詢會還是審議會？"],["洪部長申翰：諮詢會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，有關諮詢會或審議會，外界也認為不夠公開透明，有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會可以像立法院開會時直播或錄影？有可能嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為這個諮詢會也是勞、資、學界、專業界一起加入……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，包括政府、勞資雙方還有學界嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們的會議紀錄其實也都有上網公開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是決策過程可以開放公開嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密，然後我們會把……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以其實是可以的，可以考慮公開啊！"],["洪部長申翰：其實會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再者，一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠？有可能再增加嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：勞方的比例或各方的比例，其實應該都是規範在最低工資法裡面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們都按照那個法令？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在大家希望整個運作的過程、決策的過程可以公開透明，讓外界可以知道。"],["洪部長申翰：在這個會議裡面，包括會議紀錄或者是發言的紀要，其實也都有公開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：它是重點紀錄還是完整的發言紀錄？"],["洪部長申翰：是紀要。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那就是重點嘛！如果是這樣的話，不能公開嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：公開了啊！上網公開了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說開會的過程。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為重點紀要和整個決策……"],["洪部長申翰：我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏，但是它既有的公開程序，包括剛才所說結論的部分或發言的紀要，其實我們都有公開，我想這裡面是用很開大門、走大路的方式……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你覺得這樣就夠了？其實本席也是反映一些勞方的心聲，大家也想了解開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的審議過程，我想很多人也想知道。所以你們是覺得紀錄就好，並不需要公開？"],["洪部長申翰：不是不需要公開，我們其實已經把各方發言的紀要公開上網了，這部分是有公開的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：雖然發言紀要和會議紀錄公開了，但現在我的問題是有沒有可能會議過程可以公開？有困難嗎？應該不難，以現在的科技來講就很簡單，有個camera、有個網路就可以了。"],["洪部長申翰：我想這不一定是技術上面的問題，但是我們可能要再研議，包括這裡面會有很多不同方面的委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開？"],["洪部長申翰：我不是這樣說，關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題，我想我還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要，所以並不是黑箱。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，也許之後的會議你們也可以徵詢一下，如果委員們沒意見，覺得可以，那麼我們還是希望朝向這方面來進行。"],["洪部長申翰：我想可以討論一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，討論一下。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝部長。","本日會議詢答全部結束；委員林德福、涂權吉所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","問題一","行政院打算推動設立「主權基金」，媒體報導，「勞動部官員認為，勞工退休金與勞保基金的財源並非國家所有，而是來自廣大雇主與勞工，設立目的與「長期投資」的方向不同，不宜作為主權基金資金來源。」","請問勞動部代表，對於勞退基金與勞保基金是否該做為主權基金資金來源，勞動部的立場為何？","問題二","受美國關稅戰衝擊，據統計，截至四月底「新制勞退基金」，至帳面虧損1,305億元，平均每位勞工虧掉超過1萬元。另外，五月匯率急升，讓「勞動基金海外投資」又有「匯損」問題。","對此，部分勞工主張，勞工退休金應該開放自行選擇投資標的，110年11月「勞動部」辦理「勞工退休金開放自行選擇投資標的調查」，有43.4%的勞工贊成開放自選投資，贊成的原因，以「退休金屬我自己的，希望可以自行選擇投資標的運用」占31.2%最高。","對此，面對國際情勢動盪，勞動部是否仍不贊成，讓「勞工退休金開放自行選擇投資標的」？","問題三","勞工自提退休金6%的比率長年偏低，截至2024年第三季，自提退休金勞工117.5萬人，占比只有15.4%。","反觀高薪族和委任經理人等兩大族群因看準自提享有高分紅、免所得稅的好處，「提好提滿」的比率遠高於平均值。","行政院主計總處公布2023年工業及服務業全體受僱員工全年總薪資中位數為新台幣52.5萬元，請問勞動部，勞退自提6%比例長久以來偏低的主因為何？究竟是宣導不夠？還是與勞工普遍低薪，薪資沒有餘裕可以另外提撥有關？","問題四","媒體報導，勞動部將於今年第三季邀集勞資政學四方召開「最低工資審議會」，決定2026年最低工資。","外界預期明年最低工資一定會調漲，若明年調升3%，月薪將來到2萬9,450元。但許多民眾抱怨「薪資漲幅」跟不上「物價上漲」！生活成本壓力大，全民對「實質購買力」的焦慮與不安。","勞團主張明年最低工資月薪應調升至3.2萬元，本席建議勞動部，要多考慮勞工生活壓力，2026年最低工資應調升超過3萬元，不要因為政治考量，拖到2027年才放手讓最低工資超過3萬元。"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","根據美國人力資源顧問機構美世（Mercer）與特許金融協會（CFA）公布的「2024年Mercer CFA全球退休指數/Mercer CFA Institute Global Pension Index 2024報告」，台灣在48個國家中排名第39名，獲得C級評價，顯示整體制度亟需改善，排名甚至不如開發中國家的越南、巴西等國。","該報告凸顯出我國退休金制度的核心問題包括：勞保基金財務危機、退休所得替代率不足、勞工參與度偏低，以及制度設計過於複雜等等。而這些缺陷不僅影響勞工退休生活品質，也對國家財政造成長期壓力，需要政府、雇主與勞工共同面對並尋求解決方案。","當前，勞保基金正面臨嚴重的財務危機，雖然最新精算報告顯示破產時間從2028年延後到2031年，但這主要是因為政府連年撥補以及投保人數增加等暫時性因素。根據2024年勞保普通事故精算報告，勞保基金潛藏債務已達13.23兆元，相較於前次精算報告的10.29兆元大幅增加近3兆元。此外，根據勞動部統計，勞退新制的薪資水準與自提意願存在明顯關聯，薪資在11萬元以上的勞工，自提比率高達49.92%，而薪資在36,300元以下者，自提率僅6.24%，顯示收入較高的族群更有能力為退休做準備，相較之下，低薪族則難以負擔額外存款。","綜上可知，勞工保險老年給付面臨破產危機，而勞退新制出現兩極化的現象，以工作年資30年為例，勞保老年給付加上勞工退休金的所得替代率雖約為60%，但平均領取金額約2萬3,000元到2萬4,000元之間，相較其他職業別仍偏低，可預期中低薪受雇勞工的老年退休所得安全面臨雙重危機。而造成上述所得替代率偏低的部分原因在於勞保月投保薪資設有上限4萬5,800元，且該上限已近10年未調整。對於高薪資勞工而言，投保薪資上限限制使得退休金與實際薪資差距擴大，所得替代率反而更低。另外，投保薪資平均也低於軍公教甚多，進一步壓縮了勞工退休保障。","另外，勞保基金採隨收隨付、代間契約形式建構給付機制，而近年來我國人口結構邁向高齡化、少子化，進一步惡化勞保基金財務狀況，而勞保基金繳保費者減少、領勞保年金的人增加，將造成世代負擔失衡，讓民眾對於勞保財務安全失去信心。根據勞保局統計，勞保老年給付（非一次金）每月請領人數已由2010年11.8萬人，成長到2020年5月的132.2萬餘人，10年來人數增加超過11倍。","爰此，本席建請勞動部針對以下三方向進行制度革新、法律修正的研議","一、是否調高勞保條例投保薪資天花板？調高後的可能優缺點為何","二、如何進一步擴大被保險人強制納保範圍，如：五人以下微型契約受雇勞工、外籍家庭看護等，其可能優缺點為何","三、如何刺激受雇勞工增加勞退新制的自提誘因？他國有無可參考之作為？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（12時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828c902bbec38dda6b069516374867620cee4d45e0249ca52278c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:32:18 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主席請一下黃部長"},{"start":12.518,"end":30.558,"text":"部長我們有關勞工退休金制度的改革大概講了非常非常多年其實大概就是一直在原地踏步我今天從幾個面向跟部長做一些探討第一個就是"},{"start":33.291,"end":61.23,"text":"我們法定的勞保費率將在2027年達到法定上限也就是說勞保年金它自2002009年上路依勞保條例的規定實施第三年期大概每年調高0.5個百分點調到10%以後改成兩年調0.5個百分點一直到它的上限是13"},{"start":65.286,"end":86.642,"text":"那今年已經到達了12.5%那也就是說下一次所以我一開始才說2027年就會到達法定上限我先請問一下部長會不會提出修法版本確保勞保隊永續經營"},{"start":89.127,"end":110.075,"text":"那個委員確實現在費率每兩年提高0.5%因為剛剛委員是把舊保的那1%也算進去了那如果不算的話其實是每兩年會到12%所以目前確實在116年會達到上限那你們對於保險費率的提高有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":112.054,"end":125.318,"text":"確實針對費率的提高這個確實也或者是增加這個保費的負擔的問題其實的確現在各界還有不同的一些意見也尤其也涉及到老公的一些權益那我們我們確實還在審慎的思考好那就是保險費率的部分呢還在思考對"},{"start":137.1,"end":159.355,"text":"我用你們的精算報告來跟勞保局的2024年的勞保精算報告來幾個數字提供給部長就是說假如說要攤提過去未提存負債的平衡費率大概費率要高達31%假如不攤提也要17%"},{"start":167.04,"end":190.453,"text":"也就是說照你們的精算報告你們大概每幾年就會做一次勞保精算報告嗎?三年這幾年呢也花了一千三百萬左右在做精算報告那我今天沒有那麼多時間可以跟你探討精算報告可是針對精算報告提出來的"},{"start":191.454,"end":212.584,"text":"就是現行的費率假如不改勞保的洞就會越來越大那我剛才也說了2027年以至後年就會達到法定上限那現在勞動部的態度不明我希望勞動部能夠盡快把政策的方向"},{"start":214.345,"end":237.783,"text":"確定因為很多東西我覺得我們不應該一直留在停留在委員會討論或者是說社會共識我們部長溝通的觀念不管是多繳少領延後退沒有一項是可以凝聚到社會共識的"},{"start":240.831,"end":268.727,"text":"這個就是必須要靠執政者的魄力來面對你說社會共識這幾項不可能會有因為他一定會有人出來反對費率提高的部分勞動部還沒有定案請教一下"},{"start":270.236,"end":296.758,"text":"就是這幾年我先講就是勞工的退休生活特別是以戰後嬰兒潮這一輩的人的觀念他們在多數我不是說全部多數在職業生涯裡面他是沒有自己儲蓄投資的觀念的所以他們信任國家"},{"start":297.898,"end":308.58,"text":"他們覺得國家會給他特別是勞保年金推出以後他們信任國家會給他們一個在物質生活上的最低保障"},{"start":310.273,"end":338.588,"text":"所以為什麼我一直對勞保年金的問題非常的重視其實是因為我身邊真的有很多澎湖當然在地的勞工不多可是旅外多為什麼因為澎湖早期就生活困苦也沒就業機會外出沒有主產大概都是一輩子當勞工我很不希望看到像類似的人"},{"start":340.363,"end":359.657,"text":"工作為社會國家奉獻了一輩子結果他的晚年連最低的生活保障都沒有那假如說費率的部分你還沒有決定那延後退其實現在已經高齡化是全球已開發國家都會面臨的問題"},{"start":361.277,"end":376.888,"text":"高齡化伴隨的就是身體狀況其實也都保持的還可以所以有很多國家的年金會從延後退休年齡開始譬如說德國跟美國大概都已經調整到67歲連中國啊"},{"start":381.775,"end":403.96,"text":"今年也要延後退休年齡新加坡、英國、日本也都在年齡我想要請教一下部長有沒有可能我們現在當然可以透過勞資雙方協議這個是議定的這個不是法定的我現在講的是有沒有可能"},{"start":407.22,"end":429.027,"text":"勞動部的政策在法定的退休年齡做延後的政策跟姚委員說沒有的確這段時間其實也蠻多人提到這個延後退休的議題我們也看到有些國家其實已經開始了這個延後退的這個做法也都引起很大的反彈是是是"},{"start":433.089,"end":451.416,"text":"所以確實我們其實現在也在收集其實各方的意見所以我剛才其實延後退也有分強制的部分延後退還是自願性的部分延後退所以我想我們其實現在也在收集一些各方針對延後退看法的意見"},{"start":453.417,"end":474.423,"text":"再進行一些評估不過確實這個議題就像剛剛委員說的其實在社會上面各方看法都可能有很大的差距那這個調高費率未定延後退休也還要討論那我簡單因為時間的關係我簡單再問就是因為財政收支劃分法"},{"start":483.339,"end":489.975,"text":"的修正會不會影響到明年度政府的撥補"},{"start":493.921,"end":517.49,"text":"撥補勞保年金的虧損會不會應該說因為確實勞保的撥補它在我們整體的這個財快的制度裡面它並不屬於法定支出因為它不屬於法定支出的確是有可能會有影響的但是我們會盡力爭取我們會盡力爭取能夠維持跟過去至少是相近的水位部長"},{"start":523.796,"end":549.534,"text":"會影響的話就是洞會越來越大老闆的財務黑洞越來越大然後問題會一直留著當然可能在我們的任期內都不用面對到可是總有一天會面對所以我最後還是要跟勞動部建議也跟召委建議"},{"start":552.035,"end":566.015,"text":"勞保撥補之所以是非法定支出是因為勞保基金的裁員裡面我們沒有把政府撥補列入裁員之一這個第一點我們假如說"},{"start":569.295,"end":588.502,"text":"因為我個人是有提修法版本的所以我增加了勞保裁員的項目增加了政府撥補把政府撥補的責任法定化然後我也同時把"},{"start":593.276,"end":608.489,"text":"執政黨最不願意面對的政府負擔最終責任入法我覺得假如把這兩個把這個版本拿來討論趕快通過那就變成法定支出那以後"},{"start":610.485,"end":636.636,"text":"楊仁第一個我想對於大家在講到最終責任的入法我想我們是持開放的態度我們並沒有不願意面對其實是持開放的態度所以你們不會提版本可是委員的版本你們是競表贊同的我可以不可以競表尊重然後持開放的態度那我就也拜託召委就是趕快排因為我覺得"},{"start":639.537,"end":659.197,"text":"其實誰執政都不大可能讓勞保倒因為勞保涉及了台灣二分之一的人口的生活權益不可能讓他倒可是與其空口說白話不如把它明文化"},{"start":660.693,"end":681.637,"text":"與其一直對著全國的人民說有政府在勞保就不會倒那不如我們就把他入法這個是我的建議啦我相信還有很多相關的問題是我們在這個委員會會不斷討論的也希望勞動部這邊不要每一次"},{"start":688.598,"end":715.886,"text":"每一次對每一個面向你們都沒有堅定的政策決定我再重申任何一項改革像當初軍工教育連改我也不相信這個是社會大眾的攻勢只是說執政者願不願意下定決心去面對而已好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊偉 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":973,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時32分）好，謝謝主席。主席，請一下洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，有關勞工退休金制度的改革大概講了非常非常多年，其實就是一直在原地踏步啦！我今天從幾個面向跟部長做一些探討，第一個，我們的勞保費率將在2027年達到法定上限，也就是說，勞保年金自2009年上路，依勞保條例的規定，實施第三年起，每年調高0.5個百分點，調到10%以後，改成兩年調0.5個百分點，一直到它的上限是13%，今年已經到達了12.5%，也就是說下一次……所以我一開始才說2027年就會到達法定上限。我先請問一下部長，會不會提出修法版本確保勞保的永續經營？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，確實現在費率每兩年提高0.5%，因為剛剛委員是把就保那1%也算進去。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：如果不算的話，其實是每兩年提高會到12%，所以目前確實在116年會達到上限。"],["楊委員曜：對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：你們對於保險費率提高有沒有什麼想法？"],["洪部長申翰：針對費率的提高或者是增加保費負擔的問題，其實的確現在各界還有不同的一些意見，尤其也涉及到勞工的權益，我們確實還在審慎思考。"],["楊委員曜：好，保險費率的部分還在思考？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：我提供你們勞保局2024年的勞保精算報告中的幾個數字給部長，假如要攤提過去未提存負債的平衡費率，費率大概必須要高達31%。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：假如不攤提也要17%。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：也就是說，照你們的精算報告，你們大概每幾年就會做一次勞保精算報告？"],["洪部長申翰：三年。"],["楊委員曜：這幾年也花了1,300萬左右在做精算報告，我今天沒有那麼多時間可以跟你探討精算報告，可是精算報告提出來的，現行費率假如不改，勞保的洞就會越來越大，我剛才也說2027年，也就是後年就會達到法定上限，現在勞動部的態度不明，我希望勞動部能夠儘快把政策方向確定。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：因為我覺得很多東西不應該一直停留在委員會討論，或者是社會共識，我跟部長溝通一個觀念，不管是多繳、少領、延後退，沒有一項可以凝聚到社會共識的，這就是必須要靠執政者的魄力來面對，你說社會共識，這幾項不可能會有，因為一定會有人出來反對。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：有關費率提高的部分，勞動部還沒有定案，請教一下，這幾年，我先講勞工的退休生活，特別是以戰後嬰兒潮這一輩人的觀念，我不是說全部，但他們多數在職業生涯裡面是沒有自己儲蓄投資的觀念，所以他們信任國家，他們覺得國家會給他，特別是勞保年金推出以後，他們信任國家會給他們一個在物質生活上的最低保障，所以為什麼我一直對勞保年金的問題非常重視，其實是因為我身邊真的有很多……當然澎湖在地的勞工不多，可是旅外多，為什麼？因為澎湖早期生活困苦，也沒就業機會，外出沒有祖產的人大概都是一輩子當勞工，我很不希望看到相類似的人為工作、為社會國家奉獻了一輩子，結果他的晚年連最低的生活保障都沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：假如費率的部分你還沒有決定……有關延後退，其實現在高齡化是全球已開發國家都會面臨的問題，高齡化伴隨著就是身體狀況也都保持的還可以，所以有很多國家的年金會從延後退休年齡開始，譬如德國跟美國大概都已經調整到67歲，連中國今年也要延後退休年齡，新加坡、英國、日本也都在研擬，我想要請教一下部長，我們現在當然可以透過勞資雙方協議，這個是議定的，不是法定的，我現在講的是，勞動部的政策有沒有可能在法定退休年齡做延後的政策？"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，的確這段時間也蠻多人提到延後退休的議題，我們也看到有些國家其實已經開始了延後退的做法。"],["楊委員曜：也都引起很大的反彈，這個我幫部長講。"],["洪部長申翰：對，是、是、是，所以確實我們現在也在蒐集各方的意見，因為延後退也有分強制部分的延後退還，是自願性部分的延後退……"],["楊委員曜：所以我剛才講的就是議定嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我們現在也在蒐集一些各方針對延後退的看法及意見，再來進行一些評估，不過這個議題確實就像剛剛委員說的，在社會上面，各方看法也可能有很大的差距。"],["楊委員曜：對，調高費率未定，延後退休也還要討論，因為時間的關係，我簡單再問，因為財政收支劃分法的修正，會不會影響到明年度政府撥補勞保年金的虧損？我們現在在概算……"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說，確實勞保的撥補在我們整體財會制度裡面並不屬於法定支出。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：因為它不屬於法定支出，的確是有可能會有影響的，但是我們會盡力爭取，我們會盡力爭取能夠維持跟過去至少是相近的水位。"],["楊委員曜：部長，如果會影響的話，就是勞保的財務黑洞越來越大，然後問題會一直留著，當然可能在我們的任期內都不用面對，但總有一天會面對，所以我最後還是要跟勞動部建議，同時也跟召委建議，勞保撥補之所以為非法定支出，是因為在勞保基金的財源當中我們沒有把政府撥補列入財源之一，這是第一點。我個人是有提修法版本的，，我將勞保財源的項目增加了政府撥補，把政府撥補的責任法定化，同時我也把執政黨最不願意面對的政府負擔最終責任入法，我覺得把這個版本拿來討論並且趕快通過，那就變成法定支出，以後……"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，對於大家在講的最終責任入法，我們是持開放的態度，我們並沒有不願意面對，其實我們是持開放的態度。"],["楊委員曜：所以你們不會提版本，可是委員的版本你們是敬表贊同的，我可不可以這樣理解？"],["洪部長申翰：敬表尊重，然後持開放的態度。"],["楊委員曜：那我就拜託召委趕快排，其實誰執政都不大可能讓勞保倒，因為勞保涉及臺灣二分之一人口的生活權益，所以不可能讓它倒。與其空口說白話，不如把它明文化；與其一直對著全國人民說有政府在勞保就不會倒，不如我們就把它入法，這是我的建議。我相信還有很多相關問題是我們在這個委員會會不斷討論的，也希望勞動部不要每一次對每一個面向，你們都沒有堅定的政策決定。我再重申，任何一項改革，像當初軍公教年改，我也不相信這個是社會大眾的共識，只是執政者願不願意下定決心去面對而已。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","最後請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162236","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162236","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98288d89cf5ef77061925e54a9d835821946e4d45e0249ca5227cb601fca392b1a975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:32:27 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以前立法院刪的統三預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款"},{"start":129.518,"end":146.874,"text":"說清楚講明白第三個部分今年就像剛剛很多委員都講了這一次總預算裡面稅出預算只有監察院外交部財政部經濟部環境部跟數發部的預算比上一年度少其他的單位都比上一年度多"},{"start":148.126,"end":166.029,"text":"所以我們在統山的金融裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性就是你可以去做自行的調節請問主席長你有去調節嗎你有去詢問各部會你哪些東西可以審嗎審到最後以後還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上"},{"start":168.324,"end":191.015,"text":"通關刪減的部分它是不可以調解的它不可以調解然後本身裡面呢所以它說它結成不了所以你就相信了所以你就直接去砍地方政府了是嗎不是這個部分是因為我們本來它金額那麼大大概也沒有那麼大的一個計畫可以刪減所以只好去刪地方政府來財政部部長"},{"start":192.116,"end":211.486,"text":"我在財化法的時候你一直說要跟地方政府溝通好他們意見不同所以一直在溝通溝通了十幾年都沒有用第二個我想問一下這次主計處在刪地方補助款的時候我們財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎這個部分我不清楚你沒有來主計長你有沒有"},{"start":212.95,"end":231.557,"text":"有沒有跟大家說我要砍你的錢砍多少錢有跟他們溝通過嗎沒有直接發文對嗎所以就是說這件事情對你們來說就是權利是我的我愛幹嘛幹嘛今天才會站在這邊還會在這個提案預算都審查過了"},{"start":233.356,"end":256.338,"text":"第三個問題我現在的問題是現在的補助款刪到最後剩下目前是到110年的水平也就是說現在是個僵局請問行政院主席處你們打算如何解決這個僵局還是地方政府接下來要跟他們各地方議會的人說我們要跟議會報追檢預算你們是要他們直接報追檢預算嗎"},{"start":259.855,"end":283.406,"text":"其實我們在刪減之前我們都有一些去做涉算所以現在這個結論下去他們要去追檢預算還有他累計剩餘的一個情形那如果說他本身因為這個部分他們會在影響是在稅入面不會影響到稅數所以他們要去追檢預算也就是說沒有其他的方法了是嗎他可以遵檢相關現在這些縣市省長坐在這邊就是要聽你處計處長他要怎麼辦啊"},{"start":287.028,"end":307.157,"text":"是 但是這個部分呢他要怎麼辦啊他也可以用累積剩餘來做他可以用他自己的錢來做所以你不會再給他錢答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題嘛利用你的資房錢你去把它花一花他也有建議說要辦追加但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員立法委員來支持啦"},{"start":307.81,"end":333.845,"text":"他現在勢必要追檢了啦 被你弄到要追檢了啦好 重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財化法告訴我們現在版本就是最好的版本而且所有的內容都說 我補助款給好多好多現在的問題就是今天所有的問題財化法才是最終解決的方法所以財化法我想問一下主席長你現在要編新的預算是用新的財化法還是舊的財化法"},{"start":335.663,"end":344.706,"text":"我上次問過妳嘛 妳說依法行政嘛明年的預算是新的財化法對吧所以妳預算地方政府現在是用新法邊還是舊法邊"},{"start":352.657,"end":380.588,"text":"地方政府的部分這個部分我還沒有調查你們你不知道所以也不知道所以你也沒有要依法行政好最後的問題我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要還是要立法院請他們在這邊才能聽得到第二個地方集權地方被中央集權又集權財化法現在立法院已經修正了你們也不執行第二個他們接下去要編明年的預算也不知道怎麼編現在今年度的預算"},{"start":381.528,"end":405.15,"text":"如果是適用舊的財化法它就是一個中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾你們也不遵守這三件事情行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了主計處是完全不守財政紀律讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走這才是我今天的問題財化法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的行政院不願提版本到今天為止還沒有立場"},{"start":407.728,"end":417.691,"text":"如果兩位首長真的負責任的話要清楚的告訴院長我們不可以這樣子做現在請新竹市秘書長請新竹市秘書長"},{"start":427.682,"end":451.923,"text":"是主席好委員好是民主黨我想新竹市台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市喔那我們在修財化法的時候也發現了就是新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大但是真的分到地方的統籌分配稅款非常跟其他縣市顯不公平所以我們做了很多的調整第二個就是這一次的刪減到一般補助款對於地方"},{"start":452.603,"end":461.268,"text":"本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響我想知道新竹在這次的被刪了多少那你們對你們影響有哪些"},{"start":462.349,"end":480.294,"text":"好 謝謝有人關心新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%不是25%是27.3%金額是9.8億因為我們規模比較小所以實際上刪了9.8億但刪完了結果我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下34.5億"},{"start":484.196,"end":502.945,"text":"25.9億 對不起 25.9億比去年33.5億還要來得少了所以3的其實是影響非常大那剛剛大家都提到為什麼是3我們會受到影響的是教育 社福以及基層建設因為這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的這些項目就是統籌"},{"start":504.366,"end":528.238,"text":"一般補助款所指定的施政項目所以我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪所以剛剛所講到所有的弱勢孩子的補助收入的補助營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利以及我們的基礎建設我們的公園我們的道路我們的水溝這些通通受到影響那所以真的是影響非常的重大所以今天謝謝"},{"start":530.259,"end":548.846,"text":"召集人讓我們有機會來表達這個意見我們也非常希望說今天的這個審議的議案能夠照案通過把這個補助款能夠還給我們就像我們代理市長所說的以蒼生為念 以上好的 謝謝秘書長我想部長跟主席長大家都聽到了"},{"start":549.206,"end":569.818,"text":"今天大家都說如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了現在刪到的是社福是基層建設是教育教育社福這是政府的責任這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目"},{"start":570.818,"end":587.821,"text":"優先性必要性主席長我想請問一下你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎優先性跟必要性就大聲的告訴所有的國人地方政府的一般補助款是我不認為它有優先性也不認為它有必要性的講出來"},{"start":588.742,"end":607.976,"text":"報告委員 我刪新竹市的部分只有刪爭域裁員的部分所以他三項補助我是沒有刪的所以這個部分我必須要釐清而且他三檢以後所以他說的不對 那你們給他的錢不會影響到我們以三項合計起來 譬如說一般性補助統統你大聲的說我不影響社福 不影響教育 不影響基層建設"},{"start":610.037,"end":628.241,"text":"以新竹市來講的話它是比去年還增加三項合起來比去年還增加如果比去年還增加就不會有秘書長在這邊講話這裡講話不能說謊的所以他們受到影響你又說沒有受到影響所以誰說了算你要不要對著麥克風說呢"},{"start":632.466,"end":649.219,"text":"她是比去年增加7億啦三項合起來一個是計劃型補助一個一般性補助她被刪的9.5億還是比較多是嗎還是比去年增加7億還是比去年多所以她可以她沒有受任何影響妳的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":650.5,"end":676.896,"text":"今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了才會坐在這裡636億你告訴我沒有影響但是我們被通案刪減的部分就是說我們刪減了930億我們必須要通案刪減所以沒有辦法財政收支化分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以所謂的予取予求我覺得這才是今天的問題所以主席長我要問"},{"start":678.035,"end":695.732,"text":"妳的備案是什麼?妳什麼時候會有備案?或者是今天為止,之後就是妳們隨人顧性命?妳是指財劃法的部分嗎?是,不是只有今天這個錢,妳有什麼備案?沒有備案,來這邊只是虛晃一招妳要怎麼解決這個僵局啊?"},{"start":696.966,"end":721.365,"text":"那個一般性補助的部分嗎我們因為有一些部分縣市也有建議說要追加我們也希望立法院能夠支持那如果支持這個部分那你們什麼時候要做什麼事要做什麼補救要做什麼事啊我們會盡量在這個會期裡面來把它這個會期提出追加預算是嗎如果說立法院願意支持的話我們就你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們然後再去算算我們各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎"},{"start":723.26,"end":731.481,"text":"我們沒辦法 因為現在就是自愛男性的部分就是在這裡是這樣子主席長 我覺得一樣啦還是一樣 以昌生為念啦 拜託謝謝黃珊珊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":698,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時32分）謝謝主席，我請主計長及財政部長。"],["主席：請陳主計長、莊部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：部長、主計長，好！我想財政委員會在這個議場裡面已經講過非常多次，財政收支劃分法的修正就是要解決中央集權集錢、地方政府仰中央鼻息的這個問題，今天這個會議更可以證明財政收支劃分法的修正是最重要的事，因為修正了，所以地方將來會有穩定的財源，而不會像今天一樣，中央想砍就砍。今天的問題在於總預算的審查是立法院的職權，給行政單位相當的彈性，但是今天看到的是這個情況。主計長，我想問你一個問題，砍一般性補助款是你的意思，還是行政院長的意思，還是總統的意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是提了很多方案，但是有一些方案是真的沒辦法、不可行……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以最後定案的是誰？誰拍板要刪地方政府的一般補助款？行政院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是提上去給上面做決定。"],["黃委員珊珊：上面是行政院院長嗎？還是總統府？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是院長……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長拍板，所以是卓榮泰院長決定大砍地方政府的預算……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是我們提供的建議……"],["黃委員珊珊：請大家把這個事情搞清楚。","第二個部分，立法院在審議相關總預算的時候做的所謂的統刪，今年是第一次嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以前統刪大部分都是差不多1%啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：以前就有統刪，不超過1%，所以都沒有這個問題……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：以前的統刪有刪到一般補助款嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為以前刪得少，所以這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：刪得少，所以就刪不到。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只問你，但是以前有刪到一般補助款嗎？沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是以前有刪到過依法律義務的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：有刪到過，但是有刪到一般補助款嗎？你有沒有回答我？你要不要回答我？要用麥克風。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有，以前立法院刪的統刪預算從來沒有刪到地方補助款，說清楚，講明白。","第三個部分，今年就像剛剛很多委員都講的，這一次總預算裡面的歲出預算，只有監察院、外交部、財政部、經濟部、環境部及數發部的預算比上一年度少，其他的單位都比上一年度多，所以我們在統刪的金額裡面給了行政院非常大的彈性，就是可以去自行調節。請問主計長，你有去調節嗎？你有去詢問各部會他有哪些東西可以省嗎？省到最後，還是636億直接砸到地方政府的頭上。"],["陳主計長淑姿：通案刪減的部分是不可以調節……"],["黃委員珊珊：他們沒辦法再刪了，你檢討過他們沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它不可以調節，而且本身裡面大概都是一般的業務經費，所以造成執行困難……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是他說他節省不了，你就相信了，所以你就直接去砍地方政府的了，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，這個部分是因為金額那麼大，大概也沒有那麼大的計畫可以刪減，如果要刪的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有那麼多可以刪，所以只好去刪地方政府的……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這是不得不的。"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部部長，在財劃法修正的時候，你一直說要跟地方政府溝通，他們的意見不同，所以一直在溝通，溝通了十幾年都沒有用。","第二個、我想問一下，這一次主計總處在刪地方補助款的時候，財政部或主計長有跟地方政府溝通嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我不清楚。"],["黃委員珊珊：你沒有。主計長，你有沒有？有沒有跟大家說要砍他們的錢、砍多少錢，有跟他們溝通過嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個是沒有啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有，直接發文，對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這件事情對你們來說就是權力是你的，你愛幹嘛幹嘛，今天才會站在這邊，還會有這個提案，預算都審查過了。","第三個問題，我現在的問題是現在補助款刪到最後是到110年的水平，也就是現在是個僵局，請問行政院主計總處，你們打算如何解決這個僵局？還是地方政府接下來要跟各地方議會報追減預算，你們是要他們直接報追減預算嗎？現在是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實我們在刪減之前，都有去做一些設算，設算各縣市能夠舉債的空間……"],["黃委員珊珊：去設算，所以現在這個結論下去，就是他們要去追減預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有他累計賸餘的情形，因為這個部分他們的影響會是在歲入面，不會影響到歲出，歲入……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以他們要去追減預算，也就是沒有其他的方法了，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他可以撙節相關不必要的支出……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在這些縣市首長坐在這邊就是要聽你主計處長告訴他要怎麼辦啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：他要怎麼辦啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：他也可以用累計賸餘來貼補……"],["黃委員珊珊：他可以用他自己的錢來做，所以你不會再給他錢。答案就是你沒有要解決這個問題，要他利用他的私房錢，去把它花一花。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，臺南市政府也有建議要辦追加，但是這個追加的部分也必須要立法委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：他現在勢必要追減了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：立法委員來支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：他現在勢必要追減了，被你弄到要追減了。","重點是行政院在去年阻擋了財劃法修正，告訴我們現在的版本就是最好的版本，而且所有的內容都說補助款給好多好多。現在的問題就是今天所有問題，財劃法修正才是最終解決的方法。所以我想問一下主計長，你現在編新的預算是要用新的財劃法，還是舊的財劃法？我上次問過你，你說依法行政。明年的預算是用新的財劃法，對吧！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分，因為我們現在送釋憲，還是要依照憲法法庭釋憲的結果來決定……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在地方政府的預算是用新法編，還是舊法編？"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方政府的部分，我還沒有調查。"],["黃委員珊珊：你不知道……"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有調查。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你也沒有要依法行政。","最後的問題，我今天要說的是地方政府的意見對你們來說重不重要？還是要立法院請他們來這邊，你們才能聽得到？第二個、地方被中央集錢又集權，財劃法現在立法院已經修正了，你們也不執行。第三個、他們接下去要編明年的預算，也不知道怎麼編，明年度的預算如果是用舊的財劃法，就是中央政府對他們一般補助款的承諾，你們也不遵守。這三件事情，行政院是要這個國家大亂就對了！主計總處完全不守財政紀律，讓這個國家沒有辦法持續往前走，這才是我今天的問題……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是……"],["黃委員珊珊：財劃法的修正更可以證明立法院是對的，行政院不願意提版本，到今天為止還沒有立場，如果兩位首長真的負責任的話，要清楚的告訴院長，我們不可以這樣子做！","時間暫停，我請新竹市政府秘書長。"],["主席：請新竹市政府張秘書長。"],["張秘書長治祥：主席好！委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：秘書長，新竹市是台灣民眾黨唯一執政的縣市，我們在修財劃法的時候也發現，新竹市對稅收的貢獻非常的大，但是真的分到的地方統籌分配稅款與其他縣市相比顯不公平，所以我們做了很多調整。第二個，這一次刪減到一般補助款，對於地方本來就已經缺乏的經費可能受到更大的影響，我想知道新竹在這次被刪了多少，以及對你們影響有哪些？"],["張秘書長治祥：謝謝委員關心，新竹市這一次也是被通刪27.3%，還不是25%，是27.3%，金額是9.8億，因為我們規模比較小，所以實際上刪了9.8億，刪完的結果，我們今年所獲得的統籌分配稅款只有剩下25.9億，比去年33.5億還要來得少了，所以刪了其實是影響非常大。剛剛大家都提到，刪了之後，我們會受到影響的部分是教育、社福以及基層建設，這些項目不是我們所有的地方政府自己挑的，而是因為這些項目就是一般補助款所指定的施政項目，我們被刪就是這些項目會被刪。所以剛剛所講到，所有弱勢孩子的補助、收入的補助、營養午餐的補助或者是社會福利，以及我們的基礎建設，我們的公園、我們的道路、我們的水溝，這些通通受到影響，真的是影響非常的重大，所以今天謝謝召集人讓我們有機會來表達意見，我們也非常希望今天審議的議案能夠照案通過，能夠把補助款還給我們，就像我們代理市長所說的，以蒼生為念，以上。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的，謝謝秘書長，我想部長跟主計長大家都聽到了，今天大家都說，如果你刪的是一些特殊的業務費或者是不重要的錢就算了，現在刪到的是社福、是基層建設、是教育，教育、社福是政府的責任，這不是我們在財政上面可以優先刪除的項目，主計長，我想請問一下，你認為你現在刪除的是具有所謂財政上的優先性跟必要性嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：優先性跟必要性，就大聲的告訴所有的國人，我不認為地方政府的一般補助款有優先性，也不認為它有必要性的，講出來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我刪新竹市的部分只有刪增裕財源的部分，它的三項補助我是沒有刪的，所以這個部分我必須要釐清，而且它刪減……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它說的不對，你們給它的錢不會影響到……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們以三項合計起來，譬如說，一般性補助、統籌分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：你大聲的說，我不影響社福、不影響教育、不影響基層建設……"],["陳主計長淑姿：以新竹市來講的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：不是只有新竹市，今天是所有的縣市都在。"],["陳主計長淑姿：三項合起來它是比去年還增加。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果比去年還增加，就不會有秘書長站在這邊講話，在這裡講話不能說謊的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有說謊。"],["黃委員珊珊：他們說受到影響，你又說沒有受到影響，所以誰說的算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是有受到影響，但是不是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要不要對著麥克風說呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它三項合起來是比去年增加7億，一個是計畫型補助，一個一般性補助，還有統籌分配稅款。"],["黃委員珊珊：增加7億，但是它被刪了9.5億，還是比較多，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還是比去年增加7億。"],["黃委員珊珊：還是比去年多，所以它沒有受任何影響，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我不能說沒有影響……"],["黃委員珊珊：今天在做的所有的東西都受到影響了，才會站在這裡，636億，你告訴我沒有影響。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是我們被通案刪減的部分，我們刪減了……我們必須要通案刪減……"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，如果按照這樣的說法……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以沒有辦法，這是我們不得不的作法。"],["黃委員珊珊：財政收支劃分法才是真正保障地方財源穩定，而不是每天被中央隨時隨地都可以予取予求，我覺得這才是今天我們最大的問題。所以主計長，我要問，你的備案是什麼？你什麼時候會有備案？或者是今天為止，之後就是你們隨人顧生命？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是指財劃法的部分嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但不是只有這個，今天這個錢你有什麼備案？沒有備案，來這邊只是虛晃一招，你要怎麼解決這個僵局？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般性補助的部分嗎？因為有一些縣市有建議說要追加，我們也希望立法院能夠支持，如果支持這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：那你們要做什麼事，要做什麼補救？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會儘量在這個會期裡面來把它提出……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個會期提出追加預算是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果說立法院願意支持的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們只有這個方法了嗎？你們不是應該先把補助款撥給他們，然後再去算算各機關該怎麼節省錢嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有辦法，因為現在窒礙於難行的部分就是在這裡，是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，我覺得一樣啦！還是一樣，以蒼生為念，拜託。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接著請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98284a79404d63108f085e54a9d835821946e4d45e0249ca5227b919a22b82dabb035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"12:23:33 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12:32:21","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T12:23:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T12:32:21+08:00","duration":528,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.624718750000001,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.129718750000002,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.62659375,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.992843750000002,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.45221875,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.52784375,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.20221875,"end":41.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.08346875,"end":43.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.55159375,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.88034375,"end":47.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.399093750000006,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.82471875,"end":51.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.30971875,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.40596875000001,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.557218750000004,"end":64.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.96596875,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.04534375,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.03659375000001,"end":153.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.72846875000002,"end":253.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.54409375000003,"end":299.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.29221875,"end":302.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.32534375,"end":305.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.02534375000005,"end":307.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.54409375,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.40846875,"end":314.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.68221875,"end":317.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.34846875,"end":319.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":320.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.29721875,"end":334.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.47221875,"end":336.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.42971875,"end":345.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.69846875,"end":346.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.01471875000004,"end":351.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.27971875000003,"end":358.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.14784375000005,"end":361.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.18534375,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.04159375,"end":364.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.76721875000004,"end":365.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.86409375000005,"end":367.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.19284375,"end":369.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.13346875,"end":371.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.00659375000004,"end":373.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.41971875,"end":375.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.82034375,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.30096875000004,"end":381.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.30034375,"end":382.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.48159375,"end":384.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.23659375,"end":395.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.55971875,"end":398.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.85471875,"end":399.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.15409375,"end":404.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.49096875000004,"end":405.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.54971875,"end":407.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.98409375,"end":408.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.28346875000005,"end":412.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.24909375000004,"end":414.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.85221875,"end":415.62846875},{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觀眾大家早 主席有請台中市政府市長政府市長請"},{"start":18.383,"end":37.662,"text":"那我想今天我們大家剛剛委員都在提現在今年是有史以來就是明年的總預算最高的總預算通過的是兩兆九千兩百四十八億但是我們政府卻大砍我們地方政府的一般性補助款"},{"start":38.283,"end":64.477,"text":"那台中市以台中市為例每年上繳的1400億以上去年是2000億那總共6年加起來是超過9000億啦上繳中央嘛那這樣子大刀一砍砍掉我們地方性補助款27%對於這些刪減的內容包括低收入家庭兒童及學生生活輔導社會救助社福經費等等"},{"start":65.037,"end":89.127,"text":"那我想先請教副市長你可告訴我們台中市被刪減這個一般性補助款之後對台中市有造成多大的危害好 謝謝委員首先我想做一個澄清早上的吳秉慧委員他可能因為不是台中的委員所以他可能聽到別人人與議員的說法說台中市這邊的這個一般性補助款還比去年的多為什麼不能做事那這個可能是錯誤的資訊那麼我們在這個中央"},{"start":92.868,"end":117.211,"text":"幫我們就是說把我們的這個一般性補助款做的統三之後減少27.3%之後呢我們剩下的一般性補助款是86.1億那我們去年的預算呢這是在一般性補助款的部分是109.8億換言之今年如果被統三的話呢我們的一般性補助款是比去年要少了20多億所以今年會比去年少如果三的話"},{"start":117.931,"end":134.399,"text":"所以那五品會員所言他只有講的說這個今年比去年的多那基本上是沒有這個事情我在這邊第一個要特別的澄清那麼第二點呢剛剛有很多的縣市都討論了說有些我們的委員說很多縣市政府都有所謂的暫餘或者說財政的這個狀況是良好很不好意思台中並不是這樣台中在去年已經111"},{"start":140.942,"end":149.971,"text":"四年度我們的預算是短處94億短處94億換言之是入不敷出的入不敷出的部分就已經需要靠舉債來擬貧所以呢剛剛包括"},{"start":153.806,"end":159.671,"text":"那幾個縣市也有特別的請命希望主計處這邊能夠針對財政有短處的縣市應該要特別的重視我們的財政狀況那麼剛剛委員有提到我們統三是減少了27.3%多那麼事實上如果我們把它拆開來的話跟委員報告"},{"start":177.805,"end":187.753,"text":"那在總共大概有社福社會福利的經費那麼還有教育的經費可是社會福利對台中的影響是特別大的它超過了27%它的顯幅是高達34.02%因為它修正後是大概37億5000多萬"},{"start":194.918,"end":199.139,"text":"原來是56億9千多萬 接近57億那麼減少了19億3620萬那它影響的會有哪些呢 跟委員報告包括低收入戶的家庭兒童就學生活補助他們影響的有4億多 影響有8萬人次以上"},{"start":213.044,"end":239.82,"text":"那麼中低收入戶的老人生活津貼在老人這個部分影響是三億五千多萬影響的有四萬八千多人次喔那麼身心障礙者的部分呢在生活補助上會影響九億六千多萬影響有十五萬人次的身心障礙者的生活補助另外還有國民年金的保費補助影響有兩億多那麼一估的影響是有三十五萬多人次那麼在教育的部分呢跟委員報告"},{"start":240.68,"end":255.497,"text":"原來核定數是30多億修正後少了5億剩下25億多減少18.56%那這會影響教育的部分是哪邊呢包括幼生的就學補助跟育兒的津貼補助那育兒補助"},{"start":257.219,"end":281.997,"text":"育兒津貼跟就學補助我也很了解在現在這個少子化的趨勢年輕夫妻生活特別辛苦時期的這個趨勢這個就學補助跟育兒津貼其實是特別需要的一個部分所以在這邊我們其實想要欲請中央一定要重視一般性補助款在這個預算額度上面以及在它的應用項目上面是非常的重要的"},{"start":282.617,"end":305.044,"text":"那麼不要讓大家覺得說最近常常在討論的什麼中正度中三度經國度的改名那中央說只要願意改我經費就給那結果呢真正大家需要的育兒津貼就學津貼我要的時候說錢不夠那為什麼會這樣大家都很好奇很疑惑是的 是的我想今年通過的是最高的總預算現在政府有最多的錢"},{"start":306.064,"end":328.907,"text":"但是他沒辦法做事情 拿了兩兆九千億但是他說他不能做事情那我們看看台中市政府每一年上繳給中央的這六年超過九千億每一年分配回來給市府的不到一千億啦所以這個部分地方政府努力的在創稅 在收稅 上繳給中央但是你中央現在大刀一砍"},{"start":330.289,"end":333.794,"text":"這個政治報復你的理由是說什麼你的理由是說這個"},{"start":337.509,"end":362.632,"text":"立法院刪除預算所以行政院就拿弱勢群體該有的補助款來威脅那全民其實現在都看得很清楚不是統刪不是刪減的問題結果變成是執政黨的政治報復那犧牲掉的是誰剛剛我們在那個主席長也有提到說這個國防外交教育都不能刪那我請教一下國防今年增加多少較去年國防增加400億"},{"start":364.073,"end":377.507,"text":"教育呢 300億衛福呢 306億交通呢 389億內政超過400億每一個部份的預算都增加錢都增加但是我們的政府沒辦法做事情"},{"start":378.362,"end":405.576,"text":"找理由要來砍我們地方政府的一般性補助款再來一般性補助款是什麼法定義務支出行政機關不該任意的偵檢如果地方政府拒絕提供預算或決算資料的時候中央可以停播但是地方政府有拒絕嗎有嗎 沒有啊那行政院濫權刪除一般性補助款這是不是開民主倒車現在"},{"start":408.192,"end":435.735,"text":"砍了25%所以這個部分我想大家都很清楚啦不是沒有錢是不想給不想給誰我們這些弱勢的民眾政府認為說弱勢的民眾不應該擁有這些錢所以他不給這心態可異啦所以我想在這邊我要跟主席長講主席長你剛剛提到的說合法合規為什麼我們所了解的法定義務支出"},{"start":436.758,"end":458.58,"text":"法律規定這是法律的紅線喔你不可以刪減一般性的補助款而且就算你這個法律規定就是要比上個年度的更高不能更低除非啊剛剛有提到說拒絕提供預算或預算資料並沒有發生這些事情"},{"start":459.713,"end":477.954,"text":"所以我想今天很清楚的我們各縣市的這個副市長或者是我們的這個都到現場來的那我們希望的大家來到這邊就是表示表達我們的心聲不要為了一個政治的報復來去刪減到我們需要在"},{"start":479.235,"end":498.587,"text":"地方上最需要補助最需要幫助的我們所有的這些弱勢族群包括我們長者長者的費用還有我們這些兒童需要照顧的費用所以今天我們在這邊強烈的要求希望主計總處我們主計長好好的回去反映一下"},{"start":501.588,"end":520.622,"text":"趕快這個懸崖勒馬不要再做這樣的事情讓我們地方政府好做事讓我們地方政府可以好好對待我們地方的鄉親努力的創稅讓我們的稅收可以增加好不好好謝謝我們謝謝顏坤仁委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（12時23分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。有請臺中市鄭副市長。"],["主席：鄭副市長，請。"],["鄭副市長照新：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：副市長好。剛剛大家都在提，今年度的預算是有史以來最高的，通過了2兆9,248億元，但是政府卻大砍地方政府的一般性補助款。以臺中市為例，每年上繳1,400億以上，去年上繳的是2,000億，過去6年加起來，總共上繳中央超過9,000億，現在大刀一砍，砍掉一般性補助款27%，刪減內容包括低收入家庭兒童的就學生活補助、社會救助等社福經費，我想先請教副市長，你可不可以告訴我們，刪減一般性補助款之後，對臺中市造成多大的危害？"],["鄭副市長照新：謝謝委員。首先我想做一個澄清，早上吳秉叡委員因為不是臺中的委員，所以可能是聽到別人人云亦云的說法，說臺中市的一般性補助款還比去年多，為什麼不能做事。這可能是錯誤的資訊。中央將一般性補助款做了統刪、減少27.3%之後，我們剩下的一般性補助款是86.1億，我們去年的一般性補助款是109.8億，換言之，今年如果被統刪的話，我們的一般性補助款是比去年少了二十多億，所以今年會比去年少，如果刪的話。因此吳秉叡委員說今年比去年多，基本上是沒有這個事情，我在這邊第一個要特別澄清。","第二點是，剛剛有很多縣市都討論了，有些委員說很多縣市政府都有賸餘或者是財政狀況良好，很不好意思，臺中並不是這樣。臺中去年以及114年度的預算短絀94億，換言之是入不敷出的，需要靠舉債來彌平。剛剛好幾個縣市也有特別向主計總處請命，希望能夠針對財政短絀的縣市，特別重視我們的財政狀況。","剛剛委員有提到，我們統刪減少了百分之二十七點三多，事實上如果我們把它拆開來的話，跟委員報告，總共大概有社會福利的經費還有教育的經費，可是社會福利對臺中的影響特別大，它超過27%，減幅高達34.02%，因為它修正後大概是三十七億五千多萬元，原來是五十六億九千多萬元，接近57億，減少19億3,620萬元，它影響的會有哪些呢？跟委員報告，包括低收入戶家庭的兒童就學生活補助，影響了四億多元、8萬人次以上；中低收入戶老人生活津貼的部分，影響三億五千多萬元、四萬八千多人次；在身心障礙者生活補助的部分，會影響九億六千多萬元、15萬人次；另外還有國民年金的保費補助，預估影響兩億多元、三十五萬多人次。","在教育的部分，跟委員報告，原來的核定數是三十多億元，修正後少了5億元，剩下二十五億多元，減少18.56%，這會影響教育的部分是哪邊呢？包括幼生的就學補助跟育兒津貼的補助。委員很瞭解，在現在這個少子化的趨勢之下，年輕夫妻生活特別辛苦，就學補助和育兒津貼是他們特別需要的部分。所以在這邊我們想要籲請中央一定要重視一般性補助款在預算額度上面，以及它在應用項目上面是非常重要的，不要讓大家覺得，最近常常在討論的什麼中正路、中山路、經國路的改名，中央說只要願意改，經費就給，結果大家真正需要的育兒津貼、就學津貼，我要的時候說錢不夠！為什麼會這樣？大家都很好奇，也很疑惑！"],["顏委員寬恒：是的。今年通過的是史上最高的總預算，政府有最多的錢，但是它沒辦法做事！拿了2兆9,000億元，但是它說它不能做事情。我們看臺中市政府每一年上繳給中央的，這6年總共超過9,000億元，每年分配回來給市府的不到1,000億元，所以地方政府努力在創稅、收稅，上繳給中央，但是中央現在大刀一砍，進行政治報復的理由是說立法院刪除預算，所以行政院就拿弱勢群體該有的補助款來威脅。其實全民現在都看得很清楚，不是刪減的問題，而是執政黨在做政治報復，那犧牲掉的是誰？","剛剛主計長也有提到，國防、外交、教育的經費都不能刪，那我請教一下，國防今年較去年增加多少？國防增加了400億元。教育呢？300億元。衛福呢？306億元。交通呢？389億元。內政超過400億元。每個部會的錢都增加，但是我們的政府沒辦法做事情，找理由要來砍地方政府的一般性補助款！","一般性補助款是什麼？法定義務支出，行政機關不該任意刪減，如果地方政府拒絕提供預算或決算資料的時候，中央可以停撥。但是地方政府有拒絕嗎？有嗎？沒有啊！現在行政院濫權，刪除一般性補助款，這是不是開民主倒車？砍了25%，這個部分，我想大家都很清楚，不是沒有錢，是不想給，不想給誰？這些弱勢的民眾，政府認為弱勢的民眾不應該擁有這些錢，所以不給，這個心態可議！","在這邊我要跟主計長講，主計長，你剛剛提到合法合規。為什麼我們所了解的是法定義務支出是法律規定的，這是法律的紅線，你不可以刪減一般性補助款，而且法律規定，就是要比上個年度的更高，不能更低，除非有剛剛提到的拒絕提供預算或決算資料，但是並沒有發生這些事情。","今天很清楚的，各縣市的副市長或者是秘書長都到現場來了，我們希望大家來到這邊就是表達我們的心聲，不要為了政治的報復，來去刪減掉地方上最需要補助、最需要幫助的這些弱勢族群的費用，包括長者的費用，還有兒童需要照顧的費用。今天我們在這邊強烈的要求，希望主計總處主計長好好回去反映一下，趕快懸崖勒馬，不要再做這樣的事情，讓地方政府好做事，讓地方政府可以好好對待地方的鄉親，努力的創稅，讓我們的稅收可以增加，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝顏寬恒委員。接著請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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我們請洪部長"},{"start":17.704,"end":40.098,"text":"來 部長好 這個今天雖然談的是勞工退休金制度的改革不過總是要人有勞工 未來有人繳這個保費 勞保才不會倒所以我想還是問一下有關掃紙化 跟勞動部有相關一些問題因為我注意到在今年4月的時候 部長有接受專訪 那也提到說"},{"start":41.059,"end":62.478,"text":"你從立委到這個擔任部長那一直都積極努力要如何讓休假還有育嬰停留可以更彈性讓勞工可以兼顧職涯的發展那在去年這個勞動部也是有這個規劃這個以日為單位做一個請假的一個方式來做一個進行示範可是效果不是很好那我請教一下部長"},{"start":64.301,"end":72.599,"text":"這個事辦 去年事辦那接下來今年之後有關於這個育嬰停留以日來請休這個方向有在進行嗎"},{"start":73.82,"end":93.102,"text":"跟文說明因為文其實也一直很關心那我們確實現在針對運營流停的彈性化那正在做下一個階段的規劃還有包括配套的設計那目前在這個程序當中那現在也在跟行政院在爭取相關的配套資源"},{"start":94.103,"end":122.718,"text":"對那大概方向是怎麼樣就是說以日以日來作為這一個請那個請休的這個方向是是確定的嗎我們現在是朝向讓暈暈流停也包括這個家庭照顧假能夠更具彈性包括能用更短的時間能夠請休的方向在演繹因為這也是現在其實蠻多新手的爸媽來跟我們表達他們其實真的有這個部分的需要就是說希望這個在暈暈停留的部分"},{"start":123.038,"end":146.222,"text":"我們可以用日來做請休然後在家庭照顧假的方面現在是可以用這個用小時來做來做這個請假嗎我們也是往這個方向在演繹所以目前還沒有就是家庭照顧假就是用這個小時來做這個請假現在是日現在家庭照顧假有7天對然後7天嘛那一天算8小時嘛那說7 8 5656個小時那未來"},{"start":150.283,"end":160.955,"text":"未來在修法的話因為這其實也不用修法有關這一個家庭照顧假這一個這個需要修法嗎如果說是從日改成小時來做勤領的話這需要修法嗎"},{"start":161.638,"end":188.52,"text":"我目前在研議你如果要這個方向的話基本上他應該是不用修法的不用修法那不用修法如果大家認為說這樣子更方便的話那何不就朝這個方向來做進行對所以我剛才跟跟委員說明我們的確現在是不管是家庭照顧假或者是暈流停的彈性的話現在是綜合的來思考那都是希望更彈性然後更短的時間來請修的這個方向但是現在的確是在這個"},{"start":189.901,"end":208.801,"text":"配套規劃的階段因為我們也希望能夠盡量去緩解可能包括企業他在人力調度上面的挑戰要怎麼幫他去克服或者是減少人力調度的挑戰的部分這個也同時我們一定來思考所以這些相關的資源我們目前配套所需要的資源我們也在跟行政院爭取中"},{"start":209.441,"end":230.163,"text":"在去年事辦的時候有人提到就是說這一個手續上比較繁複像勞保局填報資料然後這個流程很繁複然後希望說在城市上面如果做個這個設計然後可以讓這個請假更方便你們有朝這個方向來做處理嗎因為這只是一個技術上面的"},{"start":235.146,"end":260.423,"text":"劉庭是來自舊保險裡面的給付所以他會有一些是在這個相關給付裡面他要去給付的時候的一些規範不過我們也老保局其實這段時間也很積極的在針對這些相關操作的技術流程有沒有可能可以更簡便或者是可以減少更多的人力我想這也是我們在思考的配套的其中一個重點"},{"start":261.203,"end":275.831,"text":"因為從事辦到現在也蠻久的時間了那這是其中大家所提出來的一個需要你們改善我是想說那接下來不會有事辦計畫了接下來就是如果說真的要去做的話那就是一個政策出來那我們就去做了"},{"start":276.371,"end":296.237,"text":"我希望是直接就是進入到下一個階段那這個下一個階段就是我們剛剛在講的這些方向但是我還是要跟文說明過去之所以事辦也包括事辦的成效當然也要接受大家的一些指教其實很大的原因就是你必須把方方面面的配套給想清楚"},{"start":297.077,"end":324.99,"text":"那你把它配套給想清楚這個政策在開始進行以後它的效果能夠幫助到的人跟普及率才有辦法能夠更高所以我們自己在思考跟規劃這個政策的時候我們覺得配套能不能夠到位其實是關鍵所以為什麼我們會多花一些時間比較細膩的來做這些相關的規劃的原因所以這樣子你們也花了半年時間來做示範"},{"start":326.13,"end":340.438,"text":"對啊那我是希望說那像這個半年這個半年當然現在是先停下來的對啊這個半年我們這個半年研議可是其實比較多的時間確實是在配套所需要的機制包括配套所需要的資源我們現在也在爭取中"},{"start":341.058,"end":367.947,"text":"那所以說那可不可以歸納說就是老東部這個方先生說我們育嬰勤留就是說希望說能夠採日來做勤修那有關這一個家庭照顧下的話我們希望說能夠用小食來做清理的這個方向來做進行我們朝向這個方向那大概大概哪個時候會會提出來相關的配套我這是希望盡快我真的希望盡快但是現在確實是在跟行政爭取這些配套的資源我是希望下一個會期能夠提出來啦"},{"start":369.639,"end":374.23,"text":"我希望可以更快更快好那更好啊好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝李委員謝謝部長那接下來請楊耀委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時25分）謝謝主席，我們請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。今天雖然是談勞工退休金制度的改革，不過總是要有人、有勞工，未來有人繳保費，勞保才不會倒，所以我要問一下少子化跟勞動部相關的問題。我有注意到在今年4月的時候部長有接受專訪，裡面提到你從擔任立委到部長一直都積極努力，關於如何讓休假和育嬰留停可以更彈性，讓勞工可以兼顧職涯的發展。去年勞動部也有規劃以「日」為單位作為請假的方式並進行試辦，可是效果不是很好，因此請教部長，去年是試辦，接下來在今年之後有關育嬰留停以「日」來請休的方向有在進行嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為委員其實也一直很關心，我們確實正在針對育嬰留停的彈性化做下一個階段的規劃，還有包括配套的設計，目前正在這個程序當中，也在跟行政院爭取相關的配套支援。"],["李委員坤城：那方向大概是怎麼樣？就是說，以「日」作為請休的這個方向是確定的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在是朝向讓育嬰留停、家庭照顧假能夠更具彈性，包括往讓勞工用更短的時間請休的方向在研議，因為這也是現在滿多新手爸媽來跟我們表達的，他們其實真的有這部分的需要。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！就是希望在育嬰留停的部分，我們可以用「日」來請休，然後在家庭照顧假方面，現在是可以用「小時」來請假嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們也是往這個方向在研議。"],["李委員坤城：所以目前還沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：現在還沒有。"],["李委員坤城：家庭照顧假就是用「小時」來請假？"],["洪部長申翰：現在是「日」，現在的家庭照顧假有7天。"],["李委員坤城：對。7天的話，一天算8小時嘛！所以7乘以8是56，有56個小時，這其實也不用修法，有關家庭照顧假這個部分需要修法嗎？如果是從「日」改成「小時」來請領的話，這樣需要修法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們目前在研議，如果要朝這個方向去做的話，基本上它應該是不用修法的。"],["李委員坤城：不用修法的話，如果大家認為這樣更方便，何不就朝這個方向去進行？"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我剛才跟委員說明，不管是家庭照顧假，或者是育嬰留停的彈性化，我們現在的確都會綜合地來思考，都是希望能朝更有彈性、用更短的時間來請休的方向去做，但是現在的確是在配套規劃的階段，因為我們也希望能夠儘量去緩解，包括企業在人力調度上面的挑戰，要怎麼幫它去克服或者是減少人力調度的挑戰，這個我們也會一併思考，所以目前這些配套所需要的資源，我們也在跟行政院爭取中。"],["李委員坤城：去年試辦的時候有人提到，在手續上比較繁複，要向勞保局填報資料，然後流程很繁複，希望在程式上能做個設計，可以讓請假更方便，你們有朝這個方向去處理嗎？因為這只是一個技術上面的，不是一個政策上面的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為育嬰留停確實是來自就業保險裡面的給付，所以它會有一些是在相關給付裡面，要去給付時的規範，不過我們勞保局這段時間也很積極地在針對這些相關操作的技術流程研究，看有沒有可能更簡便，或者是可以減少更多的人力，我想這也是我們在思考的配套中一個重要的部分。"],["李委員坤城：因為從試辦到現在也有滿久的時間了。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["李委員坤城：這是大家從中提出的一個需要你們去改善的問題，我是想說，接下來不會有試辦計畫了嘛，接下來如果真的要去做的話，就是一個政策出來，我們就去做了嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我希望是直接進入到下一個階段，而這下一個階段就是我們剛剛在講的這些方向，但我還是要跟委員說明，過去之所以試辦，試辦的成效也要接受大家的指教，其實很大的原因就是，我們必須把方方面面的配套給想清楚，把配套想清楚，這個政策在開始進行以後，它的效果及能夠幫助到的人和普及率才有辦法更高，所以我們自己在思考跟規劃這個政策的時候，我們覺得配套能不能到位其實是關鍵，所以為什麼我們會多花一些時間比較細膩的來做這些相關規劃的原因是這樣子。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，因為這樣子你們也花了半年時間來做試辦。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望……"],["洪部長申翰：像這半年，當然現在是先停下來的。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["洪部長申翰：這半年，我們除了做研議，其實比較多的時間確實是針對配套所需要的機制，包括配套所需要的資源，我們現在也在爭取中。"],["李委員坤城：所以勞動部的方向可不可以歸納為希望育嬰留停能夠採「日」來做請休？有關家庭照顧假，我們希望能夠用「小時」來請領的方向進行？"],["洪部長申翰：我們朝向這個方向。"],["李委員坤城：大概哪個時候會提出相關的配套？"],["洪部長申翰：我真的希望儘快！我真的希望儘快！"],["李委員坤城：下個會期？"],["洪部長申翰：但是現在確實是在跟行政院爭取這些配套的資源。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望下個會期能夠提出來啦！"],["洪部長申翰：我希望可以更快。"],["李委員坤城：好，那這樣更好啊！好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝李委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828c1704be11bc76dbe69516374867620cee4d45e0249ca52274f59cd66632241b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:13:08 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那我另外其次我要想要請教就是說勞動基金國內各種投資標的這個金額在你們整體總運用規模的7.7170億元那大概是多少的百分比"},{"start":176.363,"end":201.772,"text":"百分比是我們我們有7兆多有配置在國內的部位有國外的有股票的也有債券還有另類資產那都有不同的一個比例所以所以大概就是說除了國內股市之外你們其他還有國內債券還有國外的債券國外的權益證據股票然後還有那個另類資產"},{"start":204.073,"end":229.666,"text":"那我想了解就是說因為我們資料上看不到就是說國內跟國外的這個投資比例大概是多少原則上不同的基金因為有不同的投資規範有的可以投資國外有的不能投資股票那目前為止如果我們以新智基金來看大概是原則上大概是一半一半但是新智會在國外的部位高一點"},{"start":230.925,"end":249.486,"text":"所以這樣子你有比較具體的數據嗎大概是五十七五十八左右就是整個來看的話是這樣就是五十七五十八是國外因為國外的市場比較大好那你們就是除了這個股票跟基金之外還有沒有其他可以做投資的一些"},{"start":251.968,"end":272.877,"text":"我們的投資標的包括國內股票還有包括國外的像ETF基金另外還有國內的債券是一定有還有包括國外的債券然後還有我們也有另外的像投資國外的不動產投資信託的標的也有所以國外還有這個不動產的信託那我想其實剛剛這樣問是想"},{"start":280.64,"end":303.396,"text":"檢視一下你們這個想法你們的這個規劃看起來也大概也大概就是大家都可以想得到的那接下來我要問一個比較敏感的問題就是說你的支出長官是勞動部長以部長的職權部長可不可以影響你們的投資策略"},{"start":304.617,"end":329.754,"text":"報告委員我們內部訂有相關的規範我們有嚴謹的一個投資程序以國內股票為例那這個部長還有我本人都不會去指定我們同仁可以投資哪個個股我們以國內股票為例來說因為你若可以規範可以要求那事情就大了但是如果績效不彰的時候部長有沒有責任還是由書局長來負最終的責任"},{"start":335.072,"end":348.665,"text":"這個我們的投資就是大家都很努力我們希望每年多賺錢當然市場會有不好的時候但是我們也希望長期是獲利的所以誰要負責"},{"start":352.211,"end":379.208,"text":"我今天不用擔心我今天問的都只是在協助大家慢慢的釐清然後有一些新的想法這不是要刁難誰啦這樣投資的部分大概都是在我們局裡來處理喔那部長目前為止都沒有對我們的投資有特別的要求或是那個對好那我只是想問說績效部長的時候部長有沒有責任而已"},{"start":380.168,"end":403.756,"text":"應該是基金運用局你要扛全責就對了好很好我想我們身為未懷委員會的成員我很高興在上一屆曾經為你們基金運用局的同仁爭取專業佳績的調升讓你們從表1一下直接提高到表17"},{"start":405.376,"end":426.367,"text":"那我也曾經要求說應該將這個每年的盈餘直接分配到勞工朋友還有這個退休勞工朋友的這個退休金賬戶內我想這些訴求呢今天都實現了我想除了感謝蘇局長之外呢也跟這個前任的這個蔡豐欣局長那也跟大家表達這個感謝"},{"start":428.408,"end":453.704,"text":"事實上這些關注所隱含的信念跟價值其實它背後就是公平與正義這個勞動基金講求的是穩健所以不能說為了更高的預期效益然後就讓勞工的錢暴露在過高的風險之下所以也不能容許任何人從中獲取某取利益然後犧牲到勞工的權益"},{"start":454.665,"end":478.412,"text":"那麼因此在這個國際的經濟情勢的變動是我們台灣無法改變的那這裡面呢股市的這個聯動是最直接顯著的那今年三四月的這個台灣股市的表現創下很多的歷史記錄我猜這是你們五月份沒有發布新聞的沒有我沒有就是那個進度的問題但是如果說"},{"start":480.646,"end":488.114,"text":"局長是我們這個基金的這個掌舵者那請問局長要如何降低受到國際不可控的這個風險"},{"start":490.134,"end":510.521,"text":"報告委員市場變化確實越來越劇烈但是我們基金是一個希望有一個長期穩健收益所以我剛剛提到就是說我們在配置的部分我們一定是多元分散我想多元分散是一個很重要的一個想法一個思考那是不是"},{"start":511.501,"end":528.729,"text":"我在這邊有一些建議那局長可以聽聽看就是說我們是不是也就是說來增加國內的投資比例也是一種選項例如本土化的這個新創產業或者是縣市政府鼓勵推動的這個投資獎勵產業"},{"start":532.211,"end":546.861,"text":"這些就說如同當年我們的這個台積電的這個公司一樣因為你們有沒有想過就說在當年那個時候官員的魄力與責任在那個法治還不是很健全的時代"},{"start":548.082,"end":560.892,"text":"我們有這個能力產生護國神山那你們現在手上掌控的資源比當時還要多但是呢只是說能做一些一般民眾也可以做的這個買賣"},{"start":564.134,"end":589.335,"text":"也可以就是說一般民眾也可以去做的這個買股票這樣的事情我相信喔股市是一種它是一種零和的結果啦那長期下來一方所得呢就等於是他方的這個所失畢竟就是說勞工去投資買賣股票跟你們相比賺錢的機會一定是比較少的我不知道署長有沒有認同我剛剛的一些觀點"},{"start":590.956,"end":613.949,"text":"謝謝委員指教那對於我們這個資產的配置還有投資的標的我們因為這個勞動基金有關我們勞工的退休生活所以我們非常的謹慎對所以我今天拋出這樣的一個想法你們可以未來研議看看因為從這個公平正義的角度你們倒不如去投資有潛力的這個新創事業"},{"start":614.969,"end":640.667,"text":"或者投資一些紮根在台灣的產業特別是能夠幫助到地方就業人數增加的產業例如比較偏鄉地區的產業以台東縣為例養生運動休閒觀光企業還有農漁業的這個生產跟加工醫療照護綠色能源生技科技還有很多產業是屬於這種投資獎勵的產業可是地方政府能做的很有限特別是一項中央"},{"start":641.127,"end":666.564,"text":"或台東縣政府專案核准設立資本縣內的產業只要我有獲利的機會是不是就可以被投資我們大概我們在投資的標的目前大概是以有流動性上市櫃股票為主那最主要是我們的我們必須要準備相關的流動性那另外我們相關的投資流程大概也都會有一定的程序"},{"start":667.905,"end":694.043,"text":"這個我理解但是我剛剛提的也不是完全不可能只是過去從來都沒有被思考過沒有被討論過所以我今天拋出這樣的議題我希望你們也可以朝這個方向可以好好的去研究去演繹因為生產AI晶片的這個回答公司一直他有宣布就是說要在北市科成立這個亞洲亞洲營運中心之後立刻帶動了這個當地鄰近的這個房價"},{"start":697.905,"end":721.872,"text":"那台積電在南科設廠呢台南地區的房價跟就業人口也是整個被帶動起來那你們這個勞動基金或許可以成為下一個這個護國神山堅強的後盾好所以我想這個更多元的這個前驅的思維我們未來投資不要這麼狹隘那這個所以我"},{"start":722.752,"end":745.384,"text":"這個拜託可以好好研議因為護國神三五不是只有晶片而已那這個糧食安全也是一個很重要的一個項目那所以這個部分我想這樣的投入讓更多人加入勞保同時產生這個開源節流的效益同時這也是解決你們勞保年金"},{"start":746.064,"end":755.863,"text":"也是解決這個勞保年金的一種方式啦好那謝謝我想這個後面後續我們可能辦公室在約時間大家好好討論是好謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝蘇署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動基金運用局蘇局長。"],["主席：蘇局長。"],["蘇局長郁卿：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：局長好。我們查了一下貴局的新聞資料，最近的一則是在6月2日發布的，引述的是美國政府4月2日的時候宣布開徵對等關稅，且這個稅率超乎市場預期，政策不確定性引發市場擔憂，經濟衰退風險提高。臺股在4月7日的時候重挫逾2,000點，跌幅達9.7%，創臺股歷史單日最大跌點的跌幅紀錄，恐慌情緒蔓延。目前你們運用的勞動基金總規模達7兆7,170億元，截至4月底的評價後收益數為-2,215億元，收益率為-2.98%。因此我想請教一下蘇局長，5月初應該發布的新聞為什麼沒有發布？是什麼樣的原因？"],["蘇局長郁卿：跟委員報告，我們大概……"],["陳委員瑩：你可能麥克風要打開。"],["蘇局長郁卿：原則上我們6月第一個工作天會公布前一個月的收益數，5月的部分，我們目前還在統計中，所以5月的數字會到大概5月中下旬才會完成，因為我們的收益是包括國內外，然後會整個統計，所以5月的數字會是在7月的時候來公布。我們現在公布的是截至4月底的數字，所以我們6月是公布前一個月份，不是5月，因為我們6月2號就第一個工作日……"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們5月份大概要8月才會……"],["蘇局長郁卿：7月。"],["陳委員瑩：7月？"],["蘇局長郁卿：7月。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們每個月都會公布，但是看不到前面一個月的？"],["蘇局長郁卿：因為目前我們還在結算5月底的數字，現在是6月嘛！"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，我就弄清楚，這個沒有什麼特別要刁難的問題，因為好像每次都是雙月……你們確定每個月都會公布？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們每個月都會公布收益數。"],["陳委員瑩：好。其次我想要請教的是，勞動基金國內各種投資標的的金額，你們整體總運用規模是7兆7,170億元，那大概是多少的百分比？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們有七兆多，有配置在國內的部位，也有國外的，有股票的，也有債券，還有另類資產，那都有不同的一個比例。"],["陳委員瑩：所以除了國內股市之外，你們其他的投資……"],["蘇局長郁卿：還有國內債券，還有國外的債券、國外的股票，然後還有另類資產。"],["陳委員瑩：那我想了解的是，國內跟國外的投資比例大概是多少？因為我們資料上看不到。"],["蘇局長郁卿：原則上不同的基金因為有不同的投資規範，有的可以投資國外，有的不能投資股票，那目前為止，如果我們以新制基金來看，原則上大概是一半一半，但是新制在國外的部位會高一點。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你有比較具體的數據嗎？"],["蘇局長郁卿：大概是57%、58%左右，整個來看的話是這樣。"],["陳委員瑩：就是57%、58%是國外？"],["蘇局長郁卿：國外，對，因為國外的市場比較大。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你們除了股票跟基金之外，還有沒有其他可以做投資的一些項目？"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，我們的投資標的包括國內股票，還有包括國外的像ETF基金，另外國內的債券是一定有，還有包括國外的債券，然後我們也有另類資產，像投資國外的REITs，不動產投資信託的標的也有，所以我們的……"],["陳委員瑩：所以國外還有不動產的信託？"],["蘇局長郁卿：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好。其實剛剛這樣問，是想檢視一下你們的規劃，看起來大概就是大家都可以想得到的。接下來我要問一個比較敏感的問題，你的直屬長官是勞動部長，以部長的職權來說，部長可不可以影響你們的投資策略？"],["蘇局長郁卿：報告委員，我們內部訂有相關的規範，我們有嚴謹的一個投資程序，以國內股票為例，部長還有我本人都不會去指定我們同仁可以投資哪個個股，我們以國內股票為例來說明……"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！因為你如果可以要求，那事情就大條了。"],["蘇局長郁卿：是。"],["陳委員瑩：但是如果績效不彰的時候，部長有沒有責任？還是由蘇局長來負最終的責任？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們的投資就是大家都很努力，我們希望每年都賺錢，當然市場會有不好的時候，但是我們也希望長期是獲利的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以誰要負責？不用擔心，我今天問的都只是在協助大家慢慢地釐清，然後有一些新的想法，這不是要刁難誰。"],["蘇局長郁卿：像投資的部分大概都是在我們局裡來處理，部長到目前為止都沒有對我們的投資有特別的要求。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我只是想問績效不彰的時候，部長有沒有責任而已。"],["蘇局長郁卿：應該是基金運用局。"],["陳委員瑩：就是你要扛全責就對了，好，很好。我想我們身為衛環委員會的成員，我很高興在上一屆曾經為你們基金運用局的同仁爭取專業加給的調升，讓你們從表(一)一下直接提高到表(十七)。"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：我也曾經要求，應該將每年的盈餘直接分配到勞工朋友的退休金帳戶內，這些訴求今天都實現了，我想除了感謝蘇局長之外，也跟前任的蔡豐清局長表達感謝。事實上這些關注所隱含的信念跟價值，其實它背後就是公平與正義，勞動基金講求的是穩健，所以不能說為了更高的預期效益，就讓勞工的錢暴露在過高的風險之下，也不能容許任何人從中謀取利益，然後犧牲到勞工的權益。因此，國際經濟情勢的變動是我們臺灣無法改變的，這裡面股市的連動是最直接顯著的，今年3、4月臺灣股市的表現創下很多歷史紀錄，我猜這是你們5月沒有發布新聞的……"],["蘇局長郁卿：沒有，我們每年都是固定的。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有關係，就是那個紀錄的問題。好，但是如果局長是這個基金的掌舵者，請問局長要如何降低受到國際不可控風險的影響？"],["蘇局長郁卿：報告委員，市場變化確實愈來愈劇烈，但是我們基金希望能有一個長期穩健的收益，所以我剛剛提到，我們在配置的部分一定是多元分散。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想多元分散是一個很重要的想法與思考，我在這邊有一些建議，局長是不是可以聽聽看？我們是不是可以增加國內的投資比例，這也是一種選項，例如，本土化的新創產業，或者是縣市政府鼓勵推動的投資獎勵產業，這些就如同當年台積電這家公司一樣，你們有沒有想過，因為當年那個時候官員的魄力與責任，在那個法制還不是很健全的時代，我們有這個能力產生護國神山，而你們現在手上掌控的資源比當時還要多，卻做一些一般民眾也可以做的，像買股票這樣的事情。","我相信股市是一種零和的結果，長期下來一方所得就等於他方所失，畢竟勞工去投資買賣股票，跟你們相比賺錢的機會一定是比較少的，我不知道局長有沒有認同我剛剛講的一些觀點？"],["蘇局長郁卿：謝謝委員的指教，對於我們資產的配置，還有投資的標的，因為這個勞退基金攸關勞工的退休生活，所以我們非常謹慎。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以我今天拋出了這樣的想法，你們未來可以研議看看，因為從公平正義的角度，你們倒不如去投資有潛力的新創事業，或者是投資一些扎根在臺灣的產業，特別是能夠幫助到地方就業人數增加的產業，例如比較偏鄉地區的產業。以臺東縣為例，像養生運動休閒觀光企業，還有農、漁業的生產跟加工、醫療照護、綠色能源、生技科技，還有很多產業是屬於投資獎勵的產業，可是地方政府能做的很有限，特別是經中央或臺東縣政府專案核准設立之本縣內的產業，只要有獲利的機會是不是就可以被投資？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們投資的標的目前大概是以具流動性的上市櫃股票為主，最主要是我們必須準備相關的流動性，另外我們相關的投資流程大概也都會有一定的程序。"],["陳委員瑩：這個我理解，但是我剛剛提的也不是完全不可能，只是過去從來都沒有被思考過、沒有被討論過，所以我今天才拋出這樣的議題，希望你們也可以朝這個方向好好地去研議。因為生產AI晶片的輝達公司宣布要在北士科成立亞洲營運中心之後，立刻帶動了當地鄰近的房價，台積電在南科設廠，臺南地區的房價跟就業人口也被整個帶動起來，你們這個勞退基金或許可以成為下一個護國神山堅強的後盾，所以我想你們要有更多元、前驅的思維，未來投資不要這麼狹隘，所以拜託這個可以好好研議。"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們來研議。"],["陳委員瑩：因為護國神山不是只有晶片而已，糧食安全也是一個很重要的項目，所以這個部分有這樣的投入，讓更多人加入勞保，同時產生開源節流的效益，這也是解決勞保年金的一種方式。","好，謝謝。我想後續我們辦公室可能再約時間來好好討論。"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝蘇局長。","接續請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828ed06f55bd07dc8105e54a9d835821946e4d45e0249ca52275d099b2f0119ced05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:13:25 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謝謝主席我可不可以請主席長還有我們台北市政府的林華副市長林華副市長 主席長苗栗縣的邱麗麗副縣長苗栗縣邱副縣長我們桃園市的桃園市的秘書長對 還有我們連江縣連江縣的王縣長是王縣長 不是秘書長"},{"start":38.342,"end":61.088,"text":"好主席長你先往前一下齁我先確認一下去年113年12月30號這個簡報這一張是不是你的畫紅線這是你做給我們立法院的報告一般性的補助款不能減少依法律意義之初 皆屬相關法律規定無法因財政困難而予刪減"},{"start":68.969,"end":96.301,"text":"這是你寫的嘛好 謝謝主席長所以我要提醒你不要著是驚飛不要今天的主席長打臉去年的主席長謝謝主席長主席長你可以回位子請坐好 我先請麗華副市長副市長 我剛才聽到你的報告跟說明我也看到我們一般性補助款做長照 做教育 做基礎設施"},{"start":97.754,"end":111.439,"text":"這些種種種種的費用我請問副市長這哪一項這次刪掉39億對不對台北市一般性的補助款37.9億37.9億2500億對台北市的影響37.9億我要請問副市長你要刪掉哪一塊哪一塊是你能撿的哪一項都沒辦法撿"},{"start":123.752,"end":137.84,"text":"每一項都很重要喔當然都沒辦法減因為都是照顧到弱勢還有兒少跟老人跟教育所以一個都不能少我看到是照顧學校照顧長輩"},{"start":139.361,"end":162.96,"text":"做學校 做基礎建設更重要的是 預算已經編列送到台北市議會所有的 無論做基礎工程做坡路 鋪馬路照顧臥室 照顧長輩沒有一樣可以省所以 主計長也在這邊你也做過台南縣政府台南市政府的主計長"},{"start":164.541,"end":183.18,"text":"就請主席長來指導我們要怎麼刪 不然的話喔到時候變成蔣萬安市長 李英王副市長再刪長輩的費用 再刪育兒津貼我覺得這個要請中央指導我們 好不好所以這時候拜託立法院能夠協助我們地方把相關的一般性補助款可以順利的撥給我們來執行 謝謝"},{"start":185.846,"end":197.656,"text":"謝謝 您也要附上我接下來是不是請苗栗縣苗栗縣是我知道全國唯二兩個縣市不能舉在一個是宜蘭 一個是苗栗縣我請邱麗麗副縣長您來回應這個地方補助款25%對你們的衝擊"},{"start":204.281,"end":216.584,"text":"謝謝委員首先我要跟委員報告就是苗栗縣政府是唯一全國被財政異常控管而且是完全無法舉債的一個縣市那我們從105年的舉債389.76億已經到現在我們已經降低到346.69億一共清償了43億所以其實我們的財政基本上有困難的時候我們還是努力的調整自己的一個財政情形"},{"start":234.307,"end":247.654,"text":"同時也要兼顧相關的一個民生建設以及社福以及教育那因此苗栗在如此高依賴中央政府補助來支援我們施政需求的同時呢我可以舉一個例子我們114年的總稅入收入為"},{"start":252.836,"end":256.438,"text":"279.61億元那其中地方政府要自籌的是56.11億元佔20%而中央補助是223.5億高達80%佔比是80%而且這些預算已經都按照原額編列完成也經過我們議會的審議尤其我們現在經過這個中央政府"},{"start":279.352,"end":287.038,"text":"行政院已經合併我們是要來主辦逃逐娘大細股的一個計畫之一的一個縣市所以我們地方的一個基礎的建設以及相關的社福都一再的影響我們大細股未來的一個執行潛力因此我們現在從對不起委員"},{"start":296.485,"end":297.606,"text":"因為我們現在從113年本來我們中央主計處合併給我們的是102億9582萬元現在修正之後高達把我們整個刪除掉的有28億1233萬也就減幅達到了27%"},{"start":315.08,"end":318.844,"text":"然後我們合併之後只剩74億8480億2萬元這樣子如此高的一個三減額對我們後續的執行相關的社福跟甚至張羅未來的地方創生的這個大細股都會影響非常非常的巨大"},{"start":334.479,"end":346.345,"text":"這個一般性補助款 邱正軍委員在線他都非常關心造成苗栗短掃66.9億我們現在苗栗每一年的總預算才279億這個短掃的差額其實佔將近十分之一的預算"},{"start":354.116,"end":357.98,"text":"所以主席長您在這邊您也指導一下既不能取債的縣市然後又要負擔辦大活動也好而且預算已經編列完成而且已經審議完畢實在不知道怎麼對議會交代"},{"start":369.93,"end":371.011,"text":"跟委員補充報告我們明年還要協助中央政府來籌辦這個2026年的台日觀光高峰論壇2027年我們還要協助中央政府來辦理台灣燈會"},{"start":386.846,"end":411.696,"text":"那這些都是非常重大的支出報告主計長我們沒有要跟你吵架啦他在講什麼你很聽得懂都是協助中央政府這都是中央的很多工作對方來執行所以請主計長告訴我們我們要刪減要哪一樣他既不能借錢你要叫他怎麼辦好來我最後邀請那個我們縣長縣長陶淵對不對陶淵這邊來"},{"start":415.868,"end":435.968,"text":"我想桃園的弱勢的民眾孩子其實他不知道發生什麼事他只知道他原來114年應該有的身心障礙的弱勢的日照社會保險的補助還有低收入弱勢兒童的醫療補助現在可能都沒有了"},{"start":437.182,"end":464.735,"text":"那我了解主計處的邏輯看到今天主計處的報告第三頁特別提到113年很多的縣市都有很多的剩餘只有一個沒有那個短處57億是誰是桃園市那桃園市正在發展正在成長"},{"start":466.109,"end":474.295,"text":"我們也默默的承受了全世界最大的天然氣的一個等於是發電站所以我們現在"},{"start":476.435,"end":499.465,"text":"卻沒有辦法拿到我們一般性補助款這個對桃園市來講影響非常的大那我們希望能夠這個主計長能夠像剛才回應有幾位委員提到對於縣市財政比較不好的包括我們有短處的希望能夠額外於考慮這是我們今天來的最主要目的"},{"start":499.825,"end":512.846,"text":"好,依法一般性不住,是不能刪的所以一開始我已經講了,他們這些報告也說不能刪好,我最後請我們的連江縣長縣長您辛苦了,來自最遠的地方,來縣長今天沒空,我是秘書長"},{"start":515.327,"end":533.262,"text":"是 谢谢委员连江县是全国最小的县市那我们虽然这三个总额并不多三亿六千五百万可是以比例来说还是到27.3亿我应该这样讲我们这个自筹款才三亿八千万这个"},{"start":534.301,"end":552.007,"text":"可是這次的刪掉就三億六千五百萬所以對我們來講我們是五級的財政狀況所以自投款就已經三億八千萬三億六千萬對我們地方來講是非常非常大的負擔我簡單因為時間到我就不多講是希望中央能夠把這個部分還是給補給我們謝謝"},{"start":553.928,"end":576.597,"text":"好 那我想大家的心聲應該主席長都有聽到請主席長再指導我們到底要三哪些每一塊都是社福 每一塊都是教育都是各縣市政府第一線要做基礎建設而且預算都已經編列審訊完畢那就請主席長還有一些是承擔中央的很多的"},{"start":578.058,"end":596.109,"text":"活動或者是已經答應要辦的活動錢從哪裡來你們不想做壞人你們在指責說是立法院刪減預算但是一般性補助款你們自己也講說不能刪那所以知道我們後續要怎麼去做處理好謝謝以上好謝謝李委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時13分）謝謝主席，我可不可以請主計長，還有臺北市政府的林奕華副市長……"],["主席：林副市長、主計長。"],["林副市長奕華：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：苗栗縣的邱俐俐副縣長。"],["主席：苗栗縣邱副縣長。"],["李委員彥秀：桃園市的……"],["主席：請桃園市的秘書長。"],["李委員彥秀：對，還有連江縣的王縣長嗎……"],["主席：不是，秘書長。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主計長你先往前一下，我先確認，去年113年12月30號，這一張簡報、劃紅線的，這是不是你做給我們立法院的報告？「一般性補助款不能減少，依法律義務支出則皆屬相關法令規定……無法因財政困難而逕予刪減」，這是你寫的嘛！好，謝謝主計長。所以我要提醒你不要昨是今非，不要今天的主計長打臉去年的主計長。謝謝主計長，你可以回位置、請坐。","我先請林奕華副市長，我剛才聽到你的報告跟說明，我也看到一般性補助款做長照、做教育、做基礎設施，這種種費用，我請問副市長，這哪一項……這次刪掉39億，對不對？臺北市一般性的補助款……"],["林副市長奕華：37.9億。"],["李委員彥秀：37.9億。2,500億，對臺北市的影響，37.9億，我請問副市長，你要刪掉哪一塊？哪一塊是你能減的啊？"],["林副市長奕華：報告委員，哪一項都沒辦法減。"],["李委員彥秀：每一項都很重要。"],["林副市長奕華：當然，都沒辦法減，因為都是照顧到弱勢、兒少、老人跟教育，所以一個都不能少。"],["李委員彥秀：我看到的是照顧長輩、學校做基礎建設，更重要的是，預算已經編列送到臺北市議會，所有的無論做基礎工程、鋪馬路、照顧弱勢，照顧長輩，沒有一樣可以省。","主計長在這邊，你也做過臺南市政府的主計長，就請主計長指導我們要怎麼刪。不然的話，到時候變成蔣萬安市長、林奕華副市長在刪長輩的費用、在刪育兒津貼，我覺得這個要請中央指導我們，好不好？"],["林副市長奕華：所以這個拜託立法院能夠協助我們地方，把相關的一般性補助款可以順利地撥給我們來執行，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝林奕華副市長。","接下來是苗栗縣，我所知道全國唯二的兩個縣市不能舉債，一個是宜蘭，一個是苗栗縣，我請邱俐俐副縣長來回應刪地方補助款25%對你們的衝擊。"],["邱副縣長俐俐：謝謝委員。首先我要跟委員報告，苗栗縣政府是全國唯一被財政異常控管，而且是完全無法舉債的一個縣市。我們從105的舉債389.76億，到現在已經降低到346.69億，一共清償了43億。所以其實我們的財政基本上有困難的時候，我們還是努力地調整自己的財政情形，同時也要兼顧相關的民生建設、社福以及教育。","因此，苗栗在如此高依賴中央政府補助來支應我們施政需求的同時，我可以舉一個例子，114年我們的總歲入為279.61億元，其中地方政府要自籌的是56.11億元，占20%；而中央補助是223.5億，高達80%。占比是80%，而且這些預算已經都按照原額編列完成，也經過我們議會的審議，尤其中央政府、行政院已經核定我們是主辦桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的縣市之一，我們地方的基礎建設以及相關的社福都一再地影響大矽谷未來的執行潛力。因為從113年，本來中央主計總處核定給我們的是102億9,582萬元，現在修正之後把我們整個刪除掉28億1,233萬，減幅達到27%，然後我們核定之後只剩74億8,481萬元。如此高的刪減額度，對我們後續執行相關的社福，甚至張羅未來地方創生的大矽谷計畫，影響都會非常非常鉅大。"],["李委員彥秀：這個一般性補助款，邱鎮軍委員在現場，他就非常關心，造成苗栗短少66.9億，現在苗栗每一年的總預算才279億。"],["邱副縣長俐俐：對。"],["李委員彥秀：這個短少的差額占將近十分之一的預算。","主計長在這邊，您也指導一下，既不能舉債的縣市，然後又要負擔辦大活動也好，而且預算已經編列完成，且已審議完畢，實在不知道怎麼對議會交代，又要怎麼對苗栗縣交代！"],["邱副縣長俐俐：我跟委員補充報告，我們明年還要協助中央政府籌辦2026年臺日觀光高峰論壇；2027年我們還要協助中央政府辦理臺灣燈會，這些都是非常重大的支出。"],["李委員彥秀：報告主計長，我沒有要跟你吵架，他在講什麼，你也聽了。很多都是中央的工作，地方來協助執行，所以請主計長告訴我們要刪減掉哪一樣！他既不能借錢，你要叫他怎麼辦！","最後我邀請桃園市的代表來說明。"],["溫秘書長代欣：其實桃園的弱勢民眾、孩子不知道發生什麼事，他只知道自己原來114年應該有的身心障礙的、弱勢的日照、社會保險的補助，還有低收入、弱勢兒童的醫療補助現在可能都沒有了。我瞭解主計總處的邏輯，因為我看到今天主計總處的報告第3頁特別提到，113年度很多縣市都有很多賸餘，只有一個沒有，那個短絀57億的是誰？桃園市！"],["李委員彥秀：桃園市。"],["溫秘書長代欣：桃園市正在發展、正在成長，我們也默默承受了全世界最大的天然氣發電站，可是我們現在卻沒有辦法拿到一般性補助款，這對桃園市來講，影響非常的大，我們希望主計長能夠像剛才回應，有幾位委員提到，對於縣市財政比較不好的，包括我們有短絀的，希望能夠額外予以考慮，這是我們今天來的最主要目的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，依法一般性補助款是不能刪的，一開始我已經講了，他們自己的報告也說不能刪。","最後請連江縣縣長，縣長，您辛苦了，來自最遠的地方。"],["張秘書長龍德：抱歉，縣長今天沒空，我是秘書長。"],["李委員彥秀：好，請說明。"],["張秘書長龍德：謝謝委員，連江縣是全國最小的縣市，雖然我們這次被刪的總額並不多，3億6,500萬元，可是以比例來說的話，還是占了27.3%。我應該這樣講，我們自籌款才3億8,000萬元，可是這次就刪掉3億6,500萬元，所以對我們來講，我們是五級的財政狀況，自籌款3億8,000萬元，一般性補助款要刪3億6,500萬元，對我們地方來講是非常、非常大的負擔。因為時間到了，我就不多講，希望中央還是可以把這個部分補給我們。謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：好，大家的心聲主計長應該都有聽到，請主計長再指導我們到底要刪哪些，每一塊都是社福、每一塊都是教育，都是各縣市政府第一線要做的基礎建設，而且預算都已經編列並審竣，還有一些是承擔中央的很多活動，或者是已經答應要辦的活動，錢從哪裡來？你們不想做壞人，你們在指責說是立法院刪減預算，但是自己也講一般性補助款不能刪，所以請指導我們後續要怎麼處理。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 是不是還是請我們洪部長"},{"start":16.605,"end":37.092,"text":"部長大家都很關心這個勞保的這個基金的問題喔至少我個人也很擔心但我想到說大家覺得說領的越來越多繳費的越來越少可是那我就認真的看了一下新一個世代投入職場"},{"start":38.112,"end":54.524,"text":"然後現在有在繳保費的我都很好奇那一年他的出生的人口是多少那我就假設是25歲好了因為大學畢業嘛22歲23歲那今年2025年我就看了一下2020年你知道那一年出生的小孩出生的小孩有幾個嗎大概"},{"start":57.907,"end":68.192,"text":"十幾萬我告訴你你會嚇一跳我看了也嚇一跳2020年出生的小孩有30萬5千3百12個你知道去年剩下13萬4千8百56個我這個是統計這絕對不是後面寫的人口統計"},{"start":83.117,"end":88.839,"text":"2000年是三十萬五千三百一十二個那個時候就在講說人口少子化危機2000年大家講說現在這繳的少三十萬人還叫繳的少嗎"},{"start":108.507,"end":128.328,"text":"但如果再找一個數字相較於1982年那一年出生的小孩有40萬個我就找40萬的40萬掉到30萬 2000年其實在2000年已經就掉到30萬了2000年是因為農年再加上2000年"},{"start":129.349,"end":158.129,"text":"那為什麼講這個是從40萬人掉到30萬人花了18年的時間少掉了25%四分之一的人口數那個時候我們就說這個勞保的財務危機了勞保的財務危機可是你知道從2000年然後掉到再少四分之一就財務危機少三分之一是幾年多快的速度嗎"},{"start":160.174,"end":164.215,"text":"5年2005年出生數剩下20萬5854人2005年短短5年的時間又減10萬他不是10萬是3分之1再來對 跟 跟花多少的時間對30萬變成要變15萬這樣 兇兇落來"},{"start":191.659,"end":207.16,"text":"這個速度也是非常的快如果不要講一個特殊的年是2010年的話其實就是2021年20年他從30萬掉到剩15萬二分之一所以2000年為界"},{"start":208.061,"end":235.16,"text":"他到2020年掉了二分之一如果少了四分之一就是財務危機那那麼快的速度下墜到三分之一就少了三分之一然後再更快的速度二十年時間少了二分之一那我現在講這個勞保的財務危機大家都知道開源節流 開源怎麼開源啊費率 法定費率工具用完了 剩下幾%現在費率多少%"},{"start":238.16,"end":243.543,"text":"法定費率最高到多少法定費率沒有修法的話 緊繃啊天花板到了 沒有開圓的工具了那我們再打開投保薪資的天花板投保薪資天花板是要開到多高啊"},{"start":264.09,"end":273.944,"text":"你少掉了二分之一的人耶如果再跟四十萬的人口來講那個不是二分之一四十萬變成十五萬耶這裡打多開也開不了"},{"start":280.031,"end":290.883,"text":"大家都知道 這個不是結構不結構 入不敷出 已經沒有任何的手段可以再繼續開源了好 去年2024年 這個政府撥補1300億 投資收益的創新高1595億的投資收益"},{"start":302.111,"end":307.053,"text":"也是一樣入不敷出前年2023年政府撥補550億投資收益1100億那是死好呢那是死壞 你投資收益很壞的要安住"},{"start":319.201,"end":336.449,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 我們看你們的精算報告這次的精算報告也出來了去年的勞保收支還短差665億這個已經是連續8年這個逆差 大家都知道我剛才剩下人口數給你聽 你會怕死啊"},{"start":337.669,"end":351.957,"text":"潛藏的負債不要講啊 這個從變成14兆就不要講收不抵資也不用再講了 惡化也不用再講政府如何加大力道 我想喔啊 一樣啦 已經撥不到1300億啦 你是要怎麼加大力道啦還可以多大啦然後 這個到底是怎麼 怎麼辦喔你把年紀想起來 頭皮會發麻捏頭皮真的會發麻欸"},{"start":369.015,"end":381.89,"text":"這個人口就是牽動這個退休這個勞保基金最重要的變數這個人口結構這麼大的變化大家都知道人口危機是國安危機可是就是在這裡那勞保的普通事故啊因濟保費在這個"},{"start":390.407,"end":395.91,"text":"投保人數就是現在還是40萬的人在繳費的現在繳費的應該都是一年生40萬的人在繳費的吧今年是40萬人那個世代的人在繳費的啦今年是30萬跟20萬的還沒到職場啦"},{"start":413.325,"end":420.129,"text":"那是更恐怖的啦一年才有40萬的離開的人現在在投保可是光是這樣子2021年投保人數從1074萬到去年已經下降到1048萬少了26萬了那勞保普通事故因紀的保險費是4881億但實際保險的給付已經高達5546.3億元"},{"start":442.563,"end":469.966,"text":"所以這樣的撥補是撥補我們是很輕盈的但是就不是辦法那這種這麼大的人口結構的問題之下這個我的助理叫我跟你們大家講雖然我也不曉得我認不認同但他們都選擇不婚不生快樂一生但是這樣下去他們覺得不婚不生的人也要貧窮一生了啊"},{"start":471.721,"end":474.164,"text":"然後呢 我要再問你一個很嚴肅的課題喔勞保分得這麼大 勞保可以賺嗎你說政府付不付 最終責任沒有重要啊全部所有的人口的一半 一千萬全部都是在這個社會保險裡面"},{"start":488.797,"end":510.933,"text":"都不會負你的責任,政府不會負你的責任,你能夠一個盡權,所有人都不會負你的責任所以這不是重點,要不要負最終責任,現在是政府要怎麼負最終責任啊再來另外一個問題是,你知道有多少的受僱者或是多少的人,他的老年經濟的安全,老年經濟安全"},{"start":513.393,"end":542.495,"text":"真的都沒搞 吃得老的時候都仰賴勞保的月退再充當他的這個勉強度餘生的棺材本啦我說這個很務實的 又很現實的喔不要說勞退喔 勞退沒多少錢啦都仰賴勞保主要的經濟 老年經濟來源仰賴勞保的比例有多高 你告訴我"},{"start":549.292,"end":561.902,"text":"各位報告喔 我們對勞工的老年經濟保障還是希望他們跟世界...不要講你的希望 我現在要問你現實面 真正的現實面台灣有多少人 他退休之後所有的收入所有經濟的來源 他生活都靠而已去報這個月退多少人 你跟我說啦"},{"start":575.168,"end":589.296,"text":"不過勞保目前的家保人口是一千多萬嘛那但是在勞退那邊也有七百多萬啦所以是 我在問什麼 你在回答什麼我問東你答西 王店員你不知道喔"},{"start":592.433,"end":618.039,"text":"數字上面我可能可以我們要再去確認我告訴你大概全台灣沒有人可以講得出一個數字因為沒有人敢面對沒有人敢調查也大家都烏著眼睛都不要去想不要去想但是我跟你說喔就如我剛才一開始就講的現在的年輕人不要問我們上一代的現在要捏錢的啦多少人仰賴這個勞保月退再當生活費的啦"},{"start":618.817,"end":619.918,"text":"因為他沒有能力去為自己的老年經濟做準備養小孩繳房貸他在養上一代"},{"start":637.675,"end":651.922,"text":"別說他問我們自己啦大家各位在座的各位有幾個人你繳了房貸養了小孩然後給父母生活背後你還有能力為你自己的老年經濟安全有餘裕做準備的這個小孩我說很輕鬆的喔"},{"start":656.294,"end":667.052,"text":"我坐著一眼望去 多少人都仰賴勞保的月退當生活開支的唯一財源這個問題很嚴重"},{"start":672.714,"end":697.746,"text":"我也不知道要怎麼問 所以不能破產的但是我現在要跟你講 你是政府 你再怎麼逃 再怎麼躲 躲不了撥補是好事 但撥補也解決不了漲保費 漲保費也沒辦法 手段工具都用清了沒有可以再上漲的空間了"},{"start":698.956,"end":708.827,"text":"打開天花板,天花板進去繳,收入也有限現在未來是怎樣?我再說一個問題,你不要去思考過不?不對,AI的時代來了AI的時代來了"},{"start":715.129,"end":734.522,"text":"三年五年整個社會整個世界都就長得不一樣AI的速度之快啊讓這個社會可能三年就多一輪啊多一輪啊所以那個對勞動市場最大的衝擊是什麼大家都覺得失業啊被替代啊然後來了"},{"start":736.519,"end":762.362,"text":"你就要勞保基金的改革 說那我們不能開源 我們節流叫啊 大家啊 你要比較少的就已經很少了 要給他少 要不然就看我而已全世界都在把退休的年齡往後延可是我想AI時代來這是一個很殘忍 很殘酷的打擊來了因為可能會很多人力被替代掉而會有大量的過剩的勞動力"},{"start":764.491,"end":780.766,"text":"所以如果大家全世界來講說要領年金的年齡往後延那並不是基於並不是基於勞動力需求而已並不是基於勞動力需求的短缺恐怕真正的殘酷是基於"},{"start":782.422,"end":792.089,"text":"老年幾戶的這個基金不夠所以這叫大家都不能退休不能退休問題是沒頭腦啊AI時代來了勞動力大量的勞動力過剩人力被取代這樣要怎麼做你們有沒有想過AI時代對整個就業市場勞動力市場的衝擊除了失業以外還會有什麼影響保證你們有想過嗎"},{"start":810.892,"end":835.318,"text":"確實這個AI技術的滲透率越來越高其實現在其實在很多面向看起來都會對於整體的勞動環境會造成影響像是我想維恩其實也一直很關注這個問題不是啦我在講跟我們這個勞保基金有關的啦對於整個勞動力市場就業人口除了失業還有可能會產生什麼影響"},{"start":837.375,"end":847.243,"text":"失業保費繳的人就少了然後人類可能會更長壽更長壽以後活得越久領得越多活得越久領的人越多這個是這個社會保險會瓦解不是會瓦解是將近崩潰"},{"start":860.629,"end":876.443,"text":"不只是勞保還有健保 所幸喔 勞保不是唯一的那我再 不要忘了 我們現在移工我們的移工 我們現在83萬的移工都在繳保費 但是第14年以後不准他們領退休欸"},{"start":881.223,"end":888.948,"text":"嘿 所以我們的政策都卡在第14年欸我們是用這種殘忍的手段欸可是這種手段會不會有一天在國際勞工的組織裡面這種公約裡面要求台灣不能再這樣子下去或是人家提告到國際法庭去提告覺得我們這種管制手段都叫人搬移"},{"start":907.773,"end":911.98,"text":"這樣而已要安坐你做政府的有太重嗎這問題很嚴重的所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":920.117,"end":943.871,"text":"這個我如果沒有必要又沒有感覺你如果必要我們在講這個社會保險這個問題你知道2023年OECD和G20的國家年金統計調查了42個國家除了冰島墨西哥美國和G20的印尼四國以外這個四國不要談了其餘各國和我國的勞保性質相近的就是確定給複製的"},{"start":946.312,"end":966.184,"text":"這些國家的提存基金的比例都是100%以上印尼沒有啦 印尼是97%啦各國當中最低的是冰島 雖然也曾經破產過但他們年金制度的提存基金比例也有28啦但是不要講這個冰島 這比較特殊 這個"},{"start":970.586,"end":978.898,"text":"但是在我國2021年的精算報告勞保的已提存的基金比例是幾%我國的6.19%人家都100%"},{"start":987.657,"end":1008.178,"text":"好沒關係因為可能制度上有一點差異不一樣但是但是這個這個也是我們可以走的方向可是就人口結構惡化成這個樣子連確定確定幾副字能不能夠適應在未來的改革能不能這樣子都還是一個問號啊"},{"start":1010.652,"end":1019.159,"text":"確定第一波是已經負債這麼多了確定幾副你們有沒有評估過從13萬40萬變成30萬就已經這麼大的財務危機啊30萬變成13萬確定確定幾副字真的也提得出來嗎可以100%嗎你們有評估過嗎這是現在當然現在是這是制度上面的設計"},{"start":1039.315,"end":1056.99,"text":"不是啦政府的功能和角色就國安的危機當然就是未雨綢繆要先試算20年後的危機那我們才能知道怎麼因應而現在我告訴你不管開源或節流所有的手段工具都用竊了沒了沒了然後我就想政府你要想大家都覺得在這裡修法要修什麼啊"},{"start":1067.611,"end":1096.43,"text":"再降低給付再延長這個退休這一些都不是工具了我們過去想像的工具都已經不是工具了更何況AI時代來了所以部長這個是很嚴肅的而且是我相信對勞動部而言你們真的還必須要重新嚴肅的去思考的事過去以後我們確定提撥制變成確定給付制就好了"},{"start":1098.231,"end":1108.817,"text":"我們確定給父子的愛 歡樂人口突然間 人的越來越多五十萬的世代人要再活一年四十萬人的那個世代人要再活一年四十萬人的那個世代人要再活 要再生人的越久 活的越多現在叫的是一年四十三萬的時侯 要安寧"},{"start":1122.25,"end":1140.807,"text":"人家去叫你 我就確定幾副 付得出來嗎所以這個知識體大啦 我只能在這裡與眾欣賞的在跟大家講一個最殘酷現實 我今天要講一個重點不管開源或節流 所有的工具都用完了"},{"start":1142.251,"end":1152.22,"text":"幾乎都沒辦法我們可以想像的勞保的改革手段的工具沒了這是很嚴重的事情好 謝謝"},{"start":1161.565,"end":1165.947,"text":"因為你們不知道說多少勞工仰賴勞保的老年給付剛好你們自己有一個勞工生活及就業狀況調查113年度調查勞工退休後的生活費的來源目前沒有規劃的人28%有規劃的72%但有規劃的裡面仰賴勞保老年給付和勞工退休金的高達四成四所以44加28等於72%都算了"},{"start":1193.08,"end":1194.923,"text":"謝謝!謝謝!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":840,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時53分）好，謝謝主席。請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，大家都很關心勞保基金的問題，至少我個人很擔心。當然我想到大家都覺得領的越來越多，繳費的人越來越少，可是我認真看了一下，新一個世代投入職場現在有在繳保費的，我很好奇他們出生的那一年人口是多少？我就假設是25歲，因為大學畢業22、23歲，那今年是2025年，我就看了一下2020年，你知道那一年出生的小孩大概有幾個嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：十幾萬。"],["林委員淑芬：十幾萬？我告訴你，你會嚇一跳，我看了也嚇一跳，2020年出生的小孩有30萬5,312個，你知道去年剩下13萬4,856個。這個是統計，絕對不是亂寫的，抱歉，我講錯，是2000年，人口統計2000年是30萬5,312個，2000年那個時候就在說人口少子化危機，大家講說現在繳得少，30萬人還叫繳得少嗎？但如果再找一個數字，相較於1982年出生的小孩有40萬個，我就找40萬的。40萬掉到2000年的30萬，其實在2000年以前就已經掉到30萬了，2000年因為是龍年，再加上是2000年。","我為什麼講這個？從40萬人掉到30萬人，花了18年的時間，少掉了25%，四分之一的人口數，那個時候我們就說勞保有財務危機了。本來少四分之一就是財務危機，可是你知道從2000年再少三分之一是幾年？多快的速度？5年，2005年出生數剩下20萬5,854人，2000年至2005年短短5年的時間又少10萬，不是10萬是少三分之一。花多少的時間從30萬變成快要15萬？突然降下來的速度也是非常快。如果不要講一個特殊的年是2010年的話，其實就是2021年，20年從30萬掉到剩15萬，二分之一，以2000年為界，到2020年掉了二分之一。如果少了四分之一就是財務危機，以那麼快的速度下墜少了三分之一，然後再以更快的速度，20年時間少了二分之一來看。我現在要講勞保的財務危機，大家都知道要開源節流，怎麼開源？法定費率工具用完了，剩下百分之多少？現在費率多少？"],["洪部長申翰：11.5。"],["林委員淑芬：12.5還是11.5。"],["洪部長申翰：11.5。"],["林委員淑芬：法定費率最高到多少？"],["洪部長申翰：12。"],["林委員淑芬：那就到了。法定費率沒有修法的話「盡磅」啊！天花板到了，沒有開源的工具了！好，那我們就打開投保薪資的天花板，投保薪資天花板是要開到多高？你少掉了二分之一的人，如果再跟四十萬的人口來比，那個不是二分之一，40萬變成15萬，再打多開也開不了。大家都知道這個不是結構問題，是入不敷出，已經沒有任何的手段可以再繼續開源了。去年2024年政府撥補1,300億，投資收益也創新高達1,595億也是一樣入不敷出，前年2023年政府撥補550億，投資收益1,100億。那是因為「轉好」，如果是「轉壞」投資收益很差，那要怎麼辦？所以在這種狀況裡面，我們看你們這次出來的精算報告，去年的勞保收支還短差665億，這個已經是連續8年逆差，大家都知道，我剛才算那些人口數給你聽，你會嚇死啊！潛藏的負債不要講，變成14兆就不要講，收不抵支也不用再講了，惡化也不用再講。政府如果加大力道，我想也一樣，都已經撥補到1,300億，要怎麼再加大力道，還可以多大？這個到底要怎麼辦？你認真想起來頭皮會發麻！人口就是牽動勞保基金最重要的變數，人口結構這麼大的變化，大家都知道人口危機是國安危機，問題明明就是在這裡。","勞保的普通事故應計保費，投保人數就是現在40萬的人在繳費，現在在繳費的應該都是1年出生40萬人世代的人，是1年生40萬人那個世代的人在繳費。1年生30萬的到20萬的世代還沒來到職場，那是很恐怖的。現在1年只有40萬人口世代的人在投保，可是光是2021年投保人數就已經從1,074萬下降到去年的1,048萬，少了26萬。勞保普通事故應計的保險費是4,881億，但實際保險的給付已經高達5,546.3億元，所以這樣的撥補是……對撥補我們是很肯定的，但這就不是個辦法。在這麼大的人口結構問題之下，我的助理叫我跟大家講，雖然我也不曉得自己認不認同，但他們都選擇不婚不生快樂一生，但是這樣下去，他們覺得不婚不生的人也要貧窮一生了！然後我要再問你一個很嚴肅的課題，勞保問題這麼大，但勞保可以倒嗎？你說政府負不負最終責任不重要了，所有人口的一半一千萬人全部都是在這個社會保險裡面，能夠讓它倒嗎？政府不能讓它倒，任何一個政權、任何人執政都不能讓它倒，所以要不要負最終責任不是重點，現在是政府要怎麼負最終責任。再來另外一個問題是，你知道有多少的受僱者或多少人，他的老年經濟安全，生吃都不夠了，到老的時候，都仰賴勞保的月退在充當他勉強度餘生的棺材本？我說這很務實又很現實，不要說勞退，勞退沒多少錢，都仰賴勞保，主要的老年經濟來源仰賴勞保的比例有多高？你告訴我。"],["陳司長美女：跟委員報告，我們對勞工的老年經濟保障，還是希望他們跟世界……"],["林委員淑芬：不要講你的希望，我現在要問你現實面，真正的現實面，臺灣有多少人退休之後，所有的收入、所有的經濟來源都靠領勞保的月退？你跟我說。"],["陳司長美女：勞保目前的加保人口是一千多萬，但是在勞退那邊也有七百多萬，所以是……"],["林委員淑芬：我在問什麼？你在回答什麼？我問東，你答西。部長，你不知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：數字上面可能我們要再去確認一下。"],["林委員淑芬：我告訴你，大概全臺灣沒有人可以講得出一個數字，因為沒有人敢面對，沒有人敢調查，大家都摀著眼睛都不要去想。但是我跟你說，就如我剛才一開始就講的，不要問我們上一代的現在要領錢的多少人仰賴勞保月退在當生活費的，還是現在的多少年輕人為什麼不婚、不生？因為他沒有能力去為自己的老年經濟做準備啊！養小孩、繳房貸，他再養上一代，不要說他們，問我們自己啦！在座的各位有幾個人，你繳了房貸、養了小孩，然後給父母生活費以後，你還有能力、有餘裕為你自己的老年經濟安全做準備的？這個社會我說很現實的，我周遭一眼望去，多少人都仰賴勞保的月退當生活開支的唯一財源，這個問題很嚴重，我也不知道要怎麼問，所以不能破產的啊！不能破產的！","我現在要跟你說，因為你是政府，再怎麼逃、再怎麼躲躲不了，撥補是好事，但撥補也解決不了，我們老實說也解決不了，漲保費也沒辦法，手段、工具都用罄了，沒有可以再上漲的空間了，打開天花板繼續繳，收入也有限，那未來是要怎樣？我再說一個問題，你有沒有思考過？部長，AI的時代來了，過了三年、五年整個社會、整個世界就都長得不一樣，AI的速度之快啊！讓這個社會可能三年就換一輪啊！所以對勞動市場最大的衝擊是什麼？大家都覺得失業啊！被替代啊！然後勞保基金的改革，你們說我們不能開源，那我們節流，叫大家領少一點，就已經很少了，還要怎麼少？不然就晚一點領，全世界都在把退休的年齡往後延，可是我講AI時代來了，這個很殘忍、很殘酷的打擊來了，因為可能會有很多人力被替代掉，而會有大量的、過剩的勞動力，所以，如果全世界在講要把領年金的年齡往後延，那並不是基於勞動力需求的短缺而已，恐怕真正的殘酷是基於老年給付的這個基金不夠，所以才叫大家都不要退休啊！不要退休，問題是沒工作啊！AI時代來了，大量的勞動力過剩、人力被取代，這樣要怎麼辦？你們有沒有想過？AI時代對整個就業市場、勞動力市場的衝擊，除了失業以外，還會有什麼影響？部長，你們有想過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：確實AI技術的滲透率越來越高，現在在很多面向看起來，都會對於整體的勞動環境造成影響。委員其實也一直很關注這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，我在講跟我們這個勞保基金有關的啦，對於整個勞動力市場、就業人口，除了失業，還有可能會產生什麼影響？失業保費……"],["洪部長申翰：繳的人就少。"],["林委員淑芬：繳的人就少了啊，然後人類可能會更長壽，活得越久，領得越多，活得越久，領的人越多欸！這個社會保險會瓦解，不是會瓦解，是將近崩潰，不只是勞保，還有健保，所幸勞保不是唯一的。不要忘了，現在我們83萬的移工都在繳保費，但是第14年以後，不准他們領退休欸！所以我們的政策都卡在第14年欸！我們是用這麼殘忍的手段欸！可是會不會有一天國際勞工組織的公約要求臺灣不能再這樣子下去？或是人家提告到國際法庭，覺得我們這種管制手段都占人家便宜？這樣要怎麼辦？你做政府的有想到嗎？這問題很嚴重欸！","在這種狀況下，如果沒比較可能沒感覺，如果比下去喔，我們在講社會保險這個問題，你知道2023年OECD和G20的國家年金統計調查了42個國家，除了冰島、墨西哥、美國和G20的印尼4國以外，這4國不要談，其餘各國和我國勞保性質相近的，就是確定給付制的這些國家，提存基金的比例都是100%以上，印尼沒有啦，印尼是97%，各國當中最低的是冰島，雖然曾經破產過，但他們年金制度的提存比率也有28%，不講冰島，這比較特殊，根據我國2021年的精算報告，勞保已提存的基金比例是百分之多少？"],["洪部長申翰：6.19%。"],["林委員淑芬：人家都100%，好，沒關係，因為可能制度上有一點差異，不一樣，但是這也是我們可以走的方向。可是人口結構惡化成這個樣子，連確定給付制能不能夠適應未來的改革，都還是一個問號啊！確定提撥已經負債這麼多了，確定給付你們有沒有評估過？剩13萬，從40萬變成30萬就已經是很大的財務危機了，如果從30萬變成13萬，確定給付制真的提得出來嗎？可以100%嗎？你們有評估過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這當然是制度上面的設計。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，你們要去做，政府的功能和角色，救國安危機當然就是未雨綢繆，要先試算20年後的危機，我們才能知道怎麼因應，而現在我告訴你，不管開源或節流，所有的手段工具都用罄了！沒了！沒了！然後我在想政府你要想，大家都覺得在這裡修法要修什麼啊？再降低給付、再延長退休，這一些都不是工具了，我們過去想像的工具都已經不是工具了，更何況AI時代來了，所以部長，這個是很嚴肅的，而且我相信對勞動部而言，你們真的還必須要重新嚴肅去思考的是，以後我們確定提撥制變成確定給付制，就要煩惱了，突然間領得人口越來越多，50萬那個世代的人還活著，一年生40萬人的那個世代的人還活著，一年生30萬人的那個世代的人也還活著，還在領，領得越久活得越多，但是現在在繳的是一年生13萬世代的人時，要怎麼辦？讓這些人去繳，你有沒有辦法確定給付付得出來嗎？所以這個茲事體大啦！我只能在這裡語重心長再跟大家講一個最殘酷的現實，我今天要說的只有一個重點，不管開源或節流，所有的工具都用完了，幾乎都沒辦法了，我們可以想像的勞保改革手段工具沒了，這是很嚴重的事情，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員、謝謝部長。"],["林委員淑芬：我可以補說一句嗎？"],["主席：好，來。"],["林委員淑芬：我只說一句，你不用起來。因為你不知道多少勞工仰賴勞保的老年給付，剛好你們自己有一個勞工生活及就業狀況調查，113年度調查勞工退休後的生活費來源，目前沒有規劃的人是28%，有規劃的是72%，但有規劃的裡面，仰賴勞保老年給付和勞工退休金的高達四成四，所以44%加28%，等於72%都靠勞保。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","涂權吉委員改成書面質詢。","接續我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828a6becb13e3d0c4ecb8fa27110b4cf3b3e4d45e0249ca52275e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:02:09 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請部長跟副秘書長麻煩部長 副秘書長委員好"},{"start":27.884,"end":48.941,"text":"部長好 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既然這次實行我們就不希望我再次強調不可以有言語那要用謹慎的做法我想這也是為什麼憲法法庭當初他做出這樣的努力跟這種原則他是有他的必要性的那我希望說藉由這一次的質詢的時候讓民眾知道說"},{"start":238.382,"end":252.835,"text":"我們做這些 或者是說我們在這個質詢的過程中也是要讓民眾知道說什麼叫做它這個一次決的這個合理性它這個合理性它不僅僅是保護我們這個受害者被害者因為"},{"start":253.576,"end":269.456,"text":"我們要確保說要找到的是真正的這個肇事者或者是真凶等等的不同的情境不同的狀況所以更需要有一完整的這個程序有程序正義才有這樣子實行的這個執行的能力好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時2分）請部長跟副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩部長及副秘書長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，其實剛才幾位委員都有問過關於死刑的議題，現在的司法制度是否還有死刑量刑的存在？我想這個就不用再問過一次，答案是有的。目前臺灣的刑法不僅有死刑的存在，而且在今年……剛才你也有回復已經有實質執行死刑的案例在，所以既然有死刑的存在，為什麼在野黨不斷的去推所謂的反廢死公投，這個有沒有在你心中有起過這樣的疑惑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：死刑是合憲的，在113年憲判字第8號，這部分我們也是合乎合憲以及合法的來執行死刑，這部分有執行的案例。另外，在憲判字第8號之後的這些案件，法院也有實際上判處死刑的案例，我想可以提供給委員，這部分媒體都有報導。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，請教副秘書長，類似這樣重大的這種憲政議題，你覺得這樣的議題是否適合用公投來決定？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有關於憲法法庭的那個判決，不管是依過去的大法官解釋，或者是明白在憲訴法第三十八條都規定，有關於這個判決是各機關都必須要遵守的。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們再回溯一下，憲法法庭在113年憲判字第8號的判決中，它對死刑的科處還有執行及設置的條件，不管我們對這個判決的內容有什麼看法，我們都必須要認知到憲法法庭是具有拘束全國各機關，它的位階是等同於憲法的，既然有作出這樣子的決議，這樣我們國家的法治基礎，我相信每一個從政者，他們都是要去捍衛這個核心價值。請教副秘書長，你認為「一致決」這項條件在執行上面有沒有困難？它合理性的部分，你可不可以跟我們分享一下？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分沒有什麼困難，而且我們在評議中，其實都是互相說服及充分討論的一個很長的過程。"],["陳委員冠廷：我必須再強調，我支持死刑，我當然支持死刑！就是正因為我們支持死刑，我們要確保每一個死刑案件的判決，它是經過最嚴厲的、最嚴格的被檢驗，讓它的程序正義無懈可擊，這才是我們要努力的方向，不是推動一個違背法治會引發憲政爭議的公投。","我們知道在整個法律的效果上萬一有一個錯判的狀況的話，所造成的不但是正義得不到伸張，它造成的可能又是另外一個破碎的家庭。所以我們支持死刑，但是支持死刑的一個條件就是它要經過完整的程序正義，這一次不管是「一致決」這個條件等等，剛才副秘書長也有回應到，在法院那是一個互相把證據攤出來及互相對話的一個過程，當作有「一致決」這樣的決議的時候，才能夠確保我們判決的品質上是好的。所以既然支持死刑，我們就不希望有冤獄，我再次強調不可以有冤獄，要用謹慎的作法，我想這也是為什麼憲法法庭當初做出這樣的努力跟這種原則，是有它的必要性的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我希望藉由這一次的質詢，讓民眾知道我們做這些，或者是我們在質詢的過程中，也是要讓民眾知道什麼叫做一致決的合理性，這個合理性不僅僅是保護受害者、被害者，因為我們要確保找到的是真正的肇事者或者是真兇等等，不同的情境、不同的狀況，所以更需要有完整的程序，有程序正義，才有這樣子死刑執行的能力。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員張智倫、林倩綺所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面回復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828401775a3b4c4f82eb8fa27110b4cf3b3e4d45e0249ca522761eef51270615c565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:55:29 - 12:02:04","影片長度":"00:06:35","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:55:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T12:02:04+08:00","duration":395,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.54096875,"end":3.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.40096875,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.31096875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.35721875,"end":24.297218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.44909375,"end":27.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.58784375,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.27971875,"end":30.152843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.844718750000002,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.49846875,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.20221875,"end":68.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.64471875000001,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.81346875,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.22971875,"end":79.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.22971875,"end":80.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.01846875000001,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.77721875,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.52909375,"end":146.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.30346875,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.01846875,"end":161.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.89221875,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.34346875,"end":198.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.63284375,"end":216.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.18284375000002,"end":220.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.78596875000002,"end":225.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.86471875,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.66596875000002,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.55409375000002,"end":357.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.22034375,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.42659375,"end":390.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.11346875000004,"end":392.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.78409375,"end":393.18471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.045,"end":28.903,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請保護部 曾部長麻煩部長委員好部長 我就直接問你一個問題你贊不贊成凌虐兒童致死最高刑度可以到死刑我想凌虐會讓"},{"start":30.925,"end":57.759,"text":"致死我認為我們認為有很多的一個太陽如果以凌劣的手段來當殺人的一個方式的話我認為這個不是致死的問題這已經進入到那個殺人的一個範疇我們認為以未滿7歲這個兒童還被凌劣用凌劣的方式來殺人我認為應該要另外的立法來做一個比271條的殺人罪更重的一個刑度我們認為這個我們沒辦法去容忍這個問題"},{"start":58.939,"end":73.413,"text":"那所以我們的態度是這樣當然是以那個286那個是可以來做一個演繹的那所以部長你認為應該要怎麼修我們就直接談怎麼修因為現在委員的版本有提286的也有271的但剛剛你說應該要訂一個比271更重的"},{"start":78.337,"end":102.956,"text":"如果是淋虐七歲以下的幼童淋虐致死的話那應該要放在哪裡呢你們現在我相信你們一定有討論過事實上這個議題也不是因為最近的虐童案才受到關注過去就有很多兒童受虐致死的案件所以立法院我在第八屆第九屆的時候都有討論過法務部一向是反對的就是沒有想要增進死刑"},{"start":103.496,"end":121.773,"text":"但這次的案件又讓民意再次沸騰所以我相信部長你也感受到強大的民意的這樣的一個訴求那法律就是要服務人民嗎如果說我們現在想要去遏止這一種用凌虐的手段然後導致幼童死亡的這一些加害者"},{"start":122.193,"end":145.88,"text":"當他知道他在法律上面必須付出相對非常大的一個代價的話我認為這樣一個修法就是有其必要性那因為法務部一直說你們要研議因為這個議題也不是現在才發生你們過去就研議過我就直接請教部長你認為如果286 271現行可能都不是修法要另外再增加的話要加在哪裡在我們的刑法"},{"start":146.36,"end":173.877,"text":"在刑法我們有一個思考這個方向因為我們現在昨天6月3日跟明天6月5日都要做一個行修的以及協商的召開的延伸的一個會議是那目前我們把我們的想法好你說做那個那我們想法大概整個立法方向就是剛才我跟委員報告過的對未滿7歲的兒童我們他以零列當作殺人的一個手段是把零列要殺人"},{"start":174.697,"end":197.371,"text":"用零列一開始計三個規制零列它而發生死亡的結果那這部分我們在打算是不是可以另外再另一條的一個法條來做單獨的加重的一個規定就是另立一個單獨的條文譬如說單獨的條文就像我們殺害執行學院遵信署也加重的條文那是不是我們這個殺人罪再加重的規定我們再朝這個立法的一個方向來處理"},{"start":198.692,"end":224.838,"text":"那這樣我想這部分可以更加落實保護的一個兒童那另外各委員本來有說286的加重結果那這邊我們都尊重那我想這部分我們拿出來這個條文我們拿出來就做一個行修的會議以及延伸會議的討論我們就會拿出來做一個一併的討論那你什麼時候會有結果因為事實上這個如果大家有共識上次那個委員會的時候委員有要求我們在三個月內提出嘛那我們就盡快來處理啦"},{"start":227.266,"end":242.822,"text":"你是說你明天就要再開另外一次會議那個是延伸是我們法部內部那因為我們還要再預告還要再報行政院來做一個審查那這個期間我們希望就是上次委員會有要求說我們在三個月內要提出來"},{"start":243.912,"end":262.199,"text":"這個部分我希望能快則快就是如果你們已經有個共識它可以用另立調穩的方式我相信這個是符合社會的期待而且希望可以加速推動過去在立法上面不是說一定行政院可以審得多慢要快的話行政院其實也很快我坦白講"},{"start":262.839,"end":279.769,"text":"只要法務部你們不反對專家學者大家有共識我想立法院也一定會支持就像今天看到這麼多委員提出這麼多的版本大家目標就有一個我們不再容忍凌虐兒童致死的這一些加害者他以為"},{"start":280.569,"end":301.088,"text":"在刑法上面他是一個比較輕的刑度他以為國家的法律不會苛於他更嚴格的這樣的一個刑責就是這種僥倖的心態我們絕對是沒有辦法接受的所以也藉著這樣的修法讓大家有一個很正確的意識幼童是我們每一個成人都應該去保護的而不是去傷害的對象"},{"start":303.911,"end":330.597,"text":"如果有人用這一種傷害凌虐幼童的方式而導致他失去生命很抱歉這跟殺人無異你的刑責一定是跟殺人罪一樣最高可以到死刑我覺得如果台灣透過這樣一個修法事實上也是正式跟社會做一個很嚴正的宣告幼童大人的責任只有保護誰都不應該去傷害所以我覺得這樣的一個法義如果透過再次的修法可以很清楚的"},{"start":331.357,"end":356.82,"text":"就是跟社會宣告的話我相信對於未來去制止或者是防止下一個幼童被犧牲這個應該會有很正面的效果所以部長我很高興聽到你剛剛是有這樣子的一個初步的修法的方向但是我認為此事這個後面的程序雖然你們之前說三個月內但是如果你們已經夠成熟大家也有共識立法院也有支持"},{"start":357.641,"end":372.427,"text":"這一次立法院的這個會議已經延到7月底如果我們可以在7月底在這個有意義的法案上面我們既回應強大的民意然後也確保未來就是我們保護幼童國家跟刑法我們是站在一個更嚴肅的立場"},{"start":373.547,"end":392.476,"text":"我們願意全力去捍衛我覺得這個是非常有意義價值的事情如果可以我希望你們盡快加速讓這一次立法院已經延會到七月底如果七月底我們可以通過修法我相信這個對保護兒少來講是邁出了一大步可不可以加油我們就加緊努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時55分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我就直接問你一個問題，你贊不贊成凌虐兒童致死的最高刑度可以到死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想凌虐會致死，我們認為有很多的態樣，如果以凌虐的手段來當殺人的一個方式的話，我認為這個不是致死的問題，而是已經進入到殺人的範疇，我們認為未滿7歲的兒童被凌虐，而用凌虐的方式來殺人，應該要另外立法，要比第二百七十一條殺人罪更重的刑度，我們是沒辦法容忍這種行為，所以我們的態度是這樣，當然要修第二百八十六條也是可以來做研議。"],["王委員育敏：所以部長認為應該要怎麼修？我們就直接來談怎麼修，因為現在委員的版本有提第二百八十六條的，也有第二百七十一條的，但剛剛你說應該要訂一個比第二百七十一條更重刑度的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們研議這部分……"],["王委員育敏：如果是施以凌虐7歲以下幼童致死的話，這部分應該要放在哪裡呢？我相信你們一定有討論過，事實上，這個議題也不是因為最近的虐童案才受到關注，過去就有很多兒童受虐致死的案件，而我在立法院第八屆及第九屆的時候都有討論過，法務部一向是反對的，就是沒有想要增訂死刑，但這次的案件又讓民意再次沸騰，所以我相信部長也感受到強大民意的訴求，法律就是要服務人民嘛！如果我們現在想要去遏止這一種用凌虐的手段，導致幼童死亡的這一些加害者，讓他們知道在法律上必須付出相對非常大的代價的話，我認為這樣的修法就有其必要性，因為法務部一直說要研議，這個議題也不是現在才發生，你們過去就有研議過，我就直接請教部長，如果現行的第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條可能都不修法，而要另外再增加的話，在我們的刑法要加在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有一個思考的方向，我們昨天6月3日及明天6月5日都要做刑修協商以及召開研商會議，目前把我們的想法……"],["王委員育敏：好，你說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們大概整個立法方向就是剛才我跟委員報告過的，對於未滿7歲的兒童，施以凌虐當作殺人的一個手段，一開始有基於殺人的意圖凌虐他而發生死亡的結果，這部分我們在打算是不是可以另外再立一條法條來做單獨及加重刑責的規定？"],["王委員育敏：就是另立一條單獨的條文。"],["鄭部長銘謙：譬如單獨條文，就像殺害直系血親尊親屬也是有加重的條文，是不是我們另外針對這殺人罪再加重刑責的規定？我們會朝這個立法的方向來處理，我想這部分可以更加落實保護我們的兒童。另外，有委員的版本是第二百八十六條要加重，這部分我們都尊重，我想這個條文我們會在刑修協商以及研商的會議上拿出來作一併的討論。"],["王委員育敏：你們什麼時候會有結果？因為事實上，如果大家都有共識……"],["鄭部長銘謙：上次委員會的時候，有委員要求我們在3個月內提出嘛！我們會儘快來處理。"],["王委員育敏：你是說你們明天就要再開另外一場會議嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個是法務部內部的研商會議，因為我們還要再預告，還要再報請行政院審查，這個期間我們希望能就上次委員會有委員要求我們在3個月內要提出來。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分我希望能快則快喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["王委員育敏：如果你們已經有共識，它可以用另立條文的方式，我相信這個是符合社會的期待，而且希望可以加速推動。過去在立法上面，不是說一定行政院可以審得多慢，要快的話，行政院其實也很快，我坦白講，只要法務部不反對，專家學者大家有共識，我想立法院也一定會支持，就像今天看到這麼多委員提出這麼多的版本，大家目標只有一個，就是我們不再容忍凌虐兒童致死的這一些加害者，他們以為這行為在刑法上是一個比較輕的刑度，他們以為國家的法律不會課予他們更嚴格的這樣刑責，就是這種僥倖的心態，我們絕對是沒有辦法接受的。","所以也藉著這樣的修法，讓大家有一個很正確的意識，幼童是我們每一個成人都應該去保護的，而不是去傷害的對象，如果有人用這一種傷害凌虐幼童的方式，而導致他失去生命，很抱歉！這跟殺人無異。他的刑責一定是跟殺人罪一樣，最高可以到死刑。我覺得如果臺灣透過這樣的修法，事實上也是正式跟社會大眾做一個很嚴正的宣告，保護幼童是大人的責任，誰都不應該去傷害。所以我覺得這樣的一個法義，如果透過再次的修法，可以很清楚的跟社會宣告的話，我相信對於未來制止或者防止下一個幼童被犧牲，這個應該會有很正面的效果。","部長，我很高興聽到你剛剛是有這樣一個初步修法的方向，但是我認為此事這個後面的程序……雖然你們之前說3個月內，但是如果你們已經夠成熟，大家也有共識，立法院也支持，這一次立法院的會議已經延到7月底，如果我們可以在7月底，在這個有意義的法案上面，我們既可以回應強大的民意，也能確保保護我們未來的幼童，國家跟刑法是站在一個更嚴肅的立場，我們願意全力去捍衛，我覺得這個是非常有意義價值的事情，如果可以，我希望你們儘快加速，這一次立法院已經延會到7月底，如果7月底我們可以通過修法，我相信對保護兒少來講是邁出了一大步，可不可以加油？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會加緊努力。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳冠廷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982802cef3541b0f7fd55e54a9d835821946e4d45e0249ca5227474f7bb0d3e6380e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:52:00 - 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關於這個特別預算的這個部分最佳預算的部分最佳預算的部分你說這個會期會提出來嘛對不對就你個人的理解最佳預算基本上的合法性怎麼樣"},{"start":31.243,"end":48.651,"text":"就是要符合規定你認為現在有符合規定嗎?你是說一般性補助款?對因為我們這個部分就是說要朝向說這個部分是屬於法律或者是屬於重大的一個建設那有嗎?"},{"start":49.997,"end":73.635,"text":"我看不太出來有符合咧其實基本上我們希望解決問題但是合不合法才是一個關鍵嘛對不對那剛剛你又提到說你這個會期要提出來我聽起來是有矛盾啦這是第一點第二點的部分呢我想要就教於您的部分呢這次桶或山都超過過去的紀錄但山已經山了沒有辦法這洞的部分呢的部分有可能解"},{"start":74.535,"end":99.097,"text":"動的部分有兩個,一個是委員會解,另外一個是院會解就你所知道的部分動在這次的金融戰中,佔總預算大概多少那委員會解動的比例大概多少,還剩下多少沒有在院會裡頭做解動現在我們動解的有1381億那解的怎麼樣那目前解的部分大概是有幾個還沒解"},{"start":101.241,"end":127.236,"text":"數字沒關係你待會再給本席啦我們事後再來做一個回覆沒關係就整體來說我們說要解決這一個目前刪了過度嚴重的問題嘛就是說你本來統刪的部分有高達939億然後現在補足的部分又透過363億來刪除這一般補助款刪了之後呢現在呢有人說提出溯源你認為溯源可能嗎 可行嗎"},{"start":128.922,"end":157.837,"text":"對 這個要看溯源委員會對 那要看溯源委員會就是法律上我們就站在主管機關來說你要去考慮說這溯源有沒有可行你要去面對因為你是被溯源的對象嘛然後溯源到行政院當中能不能溯源 要溯源到何時有沒有可能這個都是一個大問題啊所以我這樣聽一聽追加預算的可能性不大可能不合法然後溯源也不可行所以已經造成一個一般補充法被刪除的事實就要跟所有各縣市政府講清楚啦"},{"start":158.417,"end":181.87,"text":"不要讓大家有充滿錯誤的期待 我覺得第一點要講第二點呢 你在三個過程當中 以一般性補助款來說它有基本的原則 它應該均贏區域的平均發展嘛 對不對所以說你還要依照這個財務能力 自有財源來看嘛你看看以六都來說 自有財源最高的是台北市93%最低的是台南市55%可是你為什麼大刀一挥全部都砍27%"},{"start":184.38,"end":207.331,"text":"沒道理嘛 這只是好到你而已每一個人來講說我很公平 我都刪27%可是你這種刪除的方式跟你補助的方式原則就不一樣刪除的方式跟補助的方式原則不一樣你應該是有財源比較好 你應該刪多一點啊你是有財源比較差 你刪一樣多 這不公平嘛老實說 已經不得不刪 我當然我們要面對你也是不得不 對不對"},{"start":207.951,"end":226.935,"text":"誰叫黃國昌要提這個案誰叫藍白他們要聯合舉手通過這個案子對不對可是他們又不敢面對這個問題又弄一個假的一個方式想要透過訴願的方式來推卸責任那是不可能的事情嘛這打假球嘛推卸責任嘛實在推卸責任嘛所以這種問題上你問你不能解釋清楚為什麼當初你要一刀砍沒道理啊"},{"start":230.677,"end":238.213,"text":"主席長我們是參照立法院通山的一個原則通山金額啦通山金額你怎麼可以通山所有的縣市這樣子"},{"start":240.051,"end":261.084,"text":"你們要檢討一下嘛怎麼可以一般性的補助款的原則就是要調劑各區的營需不同然後平衡區域發展原則是這樣子你一般去給的時候就這樣子三怎麼可以不顧這個原則呢這我是最大的質疑在這邊啦主席長你稍微休息一下你回去檢討一下第二個部分我想請教一下莊部長"},{"start":262.245,"end":282.792,"text":"部長你有沒有確定發現喔這個宮古銀行喔那到多少一間一間都發現事情啊從台灣銀行這個詐騙集團土地銀行這個行員挪用租金第一銀行又有協助詐騙集團開戶合作銀行合作金庫又變成是台大醫院來進行收款之後招欠部長問題出在哪裡啊28號不是有開過會嗎"},{"start":290.122,"end":316.508,"text":"軟刺不是開會嗎開完之後有什麼決定有什麼好的解決方法說一下好不好我覺得這個第一個就是我們的公股行庫應該對於內控的機制還要做加強因為事實上有法規的相關的規範要做規定的話那落實執行非常重要如果徒有規定沒有落實執行其實是等於是枉然的所以因此應該要在內控的部分要加強去做集合"},{"start":317.199,"end":327.431,"text":"那有什麼方法?這是道德宣示嘛不是,那我們當然對於一個公股負責人的部分在考評的時候,這部分都會納入的一個事件"},{"start":328.129,"end":345.198,"text":"我覺得老實講這種事情一直一而再再而三出現部長跟那個署長都要加油啦這種事情老是在發生這很漏氣耶公股銀行是應該最有公信力的地方耶那天5月28號好像還討論到一個問題嘛還討論到不動產融資的問題管控的問題嘛"},{"start":349.901,"end":372.471,"text":"那問一下現階段來說我看到青青安的這個核對的這個項目3月比去年少了22%4月比同期少了40%嘛那一說是黃氏降溫啦那一說呢是公股審查變嚴格啦那我只問一個問題啦部長到底現在還有多少水位可以給手購族給這個青青安帶的人啊依照你們"},{"start":373.231,"end":394.697,"text":"各個銀行的那個水位其實他們在網路上都有一些公告也就是說第一個銀行法有30%的一個天條的限制那他們也有內部的一個預警的比例那目前的預警比都在預警比例的範圍內所以目前來說所以你沒有掌握真正的數字就是了嗎台灣銀行有很高的你後面是你會後數字在給本席啦"},{"start":396.057,"end":416.401,"text":"這個應該對外講清楚 基本上水位沒有問題水位沒有問題 對水位沒有問題 讓大家能夠安心然後這個公府分壇要怎麼解決 你要講清楚不是道德喊話而已啦不事後處罰我覺得這個效果都非常有限啦好不好 部長加油啦然後後面一個部分我想要問一下那個國有財產署 國有財產署部長你注意一下 你在旁邊聽一下"},{"start":425.046,"end":442.126,"text":"那個陳組長你有一個那個政策我本席是蠻肯定的就是要提供公園、綠地、兒童這三個地目給地方政府來建立這個共榮的公園這很好那我想問一下這個到底有多少"},{"start":443.158,"end":467.014,"text":"你有去統計過嗎目前還沒有因為會發這個新聞稿是之前有地方政府要來申請但是跟都市計畫的這個容許使用有問題所以我們會跟內政部國土署這邊開過計畫那就是同意像公園市場還有兒童遊戲場這些地方政府本來要開闢的或要"},{"start":468.775,"end":484.252,"text":"要來撥用的還沒有完成這些手續但是要建立這個設施的時候我們先用委託管理的方式來提供不用因為我們國有土地的提供而耽誤了這些設施的設計你們現在只是強調不要一案一案申請就同胞來申請嘛看起來是這樣子嘛"},{"start":485.133,"end":502.668,"text":"如果可以的話我是建議署長你把這些地目全部做一個統籌的了解概括性的了解但是這些土地的取得需要經費的部分怎麼處理才是一個很現實的問題他們大部分都是有經費之後才會來跟我要土地"},{"start":503.068,"end":518.494,"text":"對 都是有這個現實的問題但是地方的需求卻很高我們如何把公跟徐之類的問題來同時面對來做一個解決那另外一個問題我也跟您說一下還有一個是停車場的部分有這樣的需求麻煩你把公園跟停車場的部分一併納入好不好"},{"start":519.274,"end":541.193,"text":"報告 其實各縣市政府都知道台南市政府我們也都有跟市長這邊都談過了我是希望說一個通盤的檢討那問題你點在哪裡我們來想一下到底是公方的問題還是區方的問題可以嗎是好 麻煩署長那另外因為那個我再請一下那個主計長上來一下好不好 主計長"},{"start":545.472,"end":568.526,"text":"主長現階段我說實在的啦地方的公園大家都很需要因為現在預算都333砍砍砍啦但是地方的需求還是不斷啦是不是在這個部分有可能跟相關單位的時候去告知說將來在整個預算配置的上面特別呢這個公園的部分或停車場的部分有的是屬於交通部有的是屬於內政部這個地方需求很強啊"},{"start":569.426,"end":584.802,"text":"那個主席長他們在這個整個預算在編列的時候提醒他們一下考量一下地方的需求啦我要跟委員報告啦我要跟委員報告就是財化法它本身分配的非常的不平均那所以以中央來講它要3.3753億啊"},{"start":586.944,"end":614.042,"text":"那他要刪減其實要優先刪減的就會是對地方補助的一個計畫型的一個補助就會受到更大的排擠對不對一定會受到排擠所以這部分是不得不也沒辦法很困擾但是明年呢我們要面對這個問題了嘛財發法接下來我們要面對這個問題是一個大問題嘛比今天我們要處理一般性的補助款更大嘛可是這個地方的需求還是一段的增加譬如講我再跟你問一個問題就是交通部也提一個公路建設的改善計畫中間有60億的部分"},{"start":617.325,"end":639.069,"text":"聽說行政院到現在還沒有辭職 還沒有核准嘛還在卡關嘛因為沒辦法核 因為沒辦法核 必須要等到收養也就是因為裁判法的問題好 謝謝因為這個問題一直卡在這邊 這不是辦法啊這就是一切都是亂三預算的結果 造成地方建設的停滯嘛在野黨亂搞 胡搞 瞎搞所造成的結果我們現在需要休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時51分）感謝主席，有請陳主計長跟財政部莊部長。"],["主席：現在已經11點50分，所以可以發便當。","等到郭國文委員結束以後休息10分鐘。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：先請主計長。主計長剛剛有提到關於追加預算的部分，你說這個會期會提出來對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們盡量、盡量，如果要趕。"],["郭委員國文：就你個人的理解，追加預算基本上的合法性怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是要符合規定。"],["郭委員國文：那你認為現在有符合規定嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：你是說一般性補助款？"],["郭委員國文：對、對。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分要朝向……屬於依法律或者是屬於重大的一個建設……"],["郭委員國文：那有嗎？我看不太出來有符合，其實基本上我們希望解決問題，但是合不合法才是一個關鍵對不對？剛剛你又提到說你這個會期要提出來，我聽起來是有矛盾，這是第一點。第二點，我想要就教於您的部分，這次凍或刪都超過過去的紀錄，但刪已經刪了沒有辦法，凍的部分有可能解。凍的部分有兩個，一個是委員會解，另外一個是院會解，就你所知道的部分，凍在這次的金額當中占總預算大概多少？委員會解凍的比例大概多少？還剩下多少沒有在院會裡頭做解凍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在我們凍結的有1,381億。"],["郭委員國文：解得怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前解的部分大概是有幾個還沒解。"],["郭委員國文：數字沒關係，你待會再給本席，我們事後再回復沒關係。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是、是。"],["郭委員國文：就整體來說，我們要解決目前刪得過度嚴重的問題，本來統刪的部分高達939億，然後現在不足的部分又透過636億來刪除一般補助款，刪了之後，幾個縣市長說要訴願，你認為訴願可能嗎？可行嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個要看訴願委員會。"],["郭委員國文：對，要看訴願委員會，法律上，站在主管機關的立場你要去考量訴願有沒有可行，你要去面對，因為你是被訴願的對象。光是行政院的決定算不算行政處分、能不能訴願、要訴願到何時？有沒有可能？這個都是很大問題。所以我這樣聽一聽，追加預算的可能性不大，可能不合法，然後訴願也不可行，已經造成一般補助款被刪除的事實，這要跟各縣市政府講清楚，不要讓大家充滿錯誤的期待，我覺得第一點要講。第二點，你在刪的過程當中，以一般性補助款來說，它有基本的原則，它應該均衡區域的平均發展，對不對？所以說你還要依照財務能力「自有財源」來看，以六都來說自有財源最高的是臺北市93%，最低的是臺南市55%，可是你為什麼大刀一揮全部都砍27%？沒道理嘛！這只是好到你而已，每一個來講，你說我很公平都刪27%，可是你這種刪除的方式跟你補助方式的原則就不一樣。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：刪除的方式跟補助方式的原則不一樣，你應該自有財源比較好的應該要刪多一點，自有財源比較差的你刪一樣多，這不公平嘛！老實說，已經不得不刪，當然我們要面對，你也是不得不。誰叫黃國昌要提這個案，誰叫藍白他們要聯合舉手通過這個案子對不對？可是他們不敢面對這個問題，又弄一個假的方式，想要透過訴願的方式來推卸責任，那是不可能的事情，就打假球、推卸責任嘛！所以這種問題，你能不能解釋清楚為什麼當初你要一刀砍？沒道理啊！主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是參照立法院通刪的原則。"],["郭委員國文：通刪「金額」啦！通刪金額，你怎麼可以這樣子通刪所有的縣市。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們也會檢討。"],["郭委員國文：你們要檢討一下，一般性補助款的原則就是要調劑各區的盈虛不同、平衡區域發展，原則是這樣子，你一般去給的時候都這樣子，刪什麼可以不顧這個原則？我最大的質疑在這邊。主計長，你稍微休息一下，你回去檢討一下。","第二個部分，我想請教一下莊部長。部長，你最近有沒有發現公股銀行像得雞瘟，一間一間都發生事情，從臺灣銀行行員自組詐騙集團；土地銀行行員挪用租金；第一銀行行員協助詐騙集團開戶；合作金庫到臺大醫院進行收款之後遭竊。部長，問題出在哪裡？28號不是有開過會嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：阮次不是開會嗎？開完之後有什麼好的解決方法，說一下好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得第一個就是我們的公股行庫應該對於內控的機制還要做加強，因為事實上有法規相關的規範來做規定的話，落實執行非常重要，如果徒有規定而沒有落實執行，其實等於是枉然，因此在內控的部分應該要加強去做稽核。"],["郭委員國文：那有什麼方法？你這是道德宣示嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我們當然對於各公股負責人的部分，在考評的時候，這部分都會納入的一個事件。"],["郭委員國文：老實講，這種事情一而再、再而三出現，部長跟署長都要加油。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：這種事情老是在發生很「漏氣」，公股銀行應該是最有公信力的地方。5月28號好像還討論到一個問題，還討論到不動產融資的問題、管控的問題。那我問一下，現階段來說，我看到新青安核貸件數，3月比去年少了22%，4月比同期少了40%，一說是房市降溫；一說是公股審查變嚴格。我只問一個問題，部長，到底現在還有多少水位可以給首購族、給新青安貸款的人？"],["莊部長翠雲：各個銀行的水位，其實他們在網路上都有一些公告，也就是說，第一個，銀行法有30%的一個天條限制。"],["郭委員國文：我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：那他們有內部的預警比例，目前的預警比都在預警比例的範圍內，所以目前來說……"],["郭委員國文：所以你沒有掌握真正的數字就是了！"],["莊部長翠雲：臺灣銀行有……"],["郭委員國文：你會後數字再給本席，這個應該對外講清楚，就是說基本上水位沒有問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：水位沒有問題，對。"],["郭委員國文：水位沒有問題，讓大家能夠安心。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：然後公股銀行要怎麼解決，你也要講清楚，不是道德喊話而已，或事後處罰，我覺得這效果都非常有限，好不好？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：加油！後面一個部分，我想要問一下國有財產署。部長，你注意一下，你在旁邊聽一下。曾署長，你有一個政策本席是滿肯定的，就是要提供「公園」、「綠地」跟「兒童遊戲場」這三個地目給地方政府建立共融的公園，這個很好！我想問一下，這個到底有多少？你有去統計過嗎？"],["曾署長國基：目前還沒有，會發這個新聞稿是因為之前有地方政府要來申請，但是跟都市計畫的容許使用產生問題，所以我們跟內政部國土署開過計畫，就是同意像公園、市場，還有兒童遊戲場，這些地方政府本來要開闢的，或要來撥用的，在還沒有完成這些手續，但是要建立這個設施的時候，我們先用委託管理的方式提供，不要因為我們國有土地的提供而耽誤了這些設施的設計。"],["郭委員國文：你們現在只是強調不要一案一案申請，就統包來申請，看起來是這樣子。如果可以的話，我是建議署長，你把這些地目全部統籌做概括性的了解，但這些土地的取得需要經費的部分怎麼處理才是一個很現實的問題。"],["曾署長國基：他們大部分都是有經費之後，才會來跟我要土地。"],["郭委員國文：對，就是有這個現實的問題，但是地方的需求卻很高，我們如何同時面對供需的問題來做解決？","另外一個問題我也跟您說，還有停車場部分也有這樣的需求，麻煩你把公園跟停車場的部分一併納入，好不好？"],["曾署長國基：報告，其實各縣市政府都知道，就臺南市政府，我們也有跟市長這邊都談過了。"],["郭委員國文：我是希望有通盤的檢討，問題點在哪裡，我們來想一下到底是供方的問題還是需方的問題，可以嗎？"],["曾署長國基：是。"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩署長。","另外，我再請陳主計長上來，好不好？主計長，現階段我說實在的，地方的公園大家都很需要，因為現在預算都刪、刪、刪，砍、砍、砍，但地方的需求還是不斷，是不是在這個部分有可能跟相關單位告知？將來在整個預算配置上面，特別就公園或停車場部分，有的是屬於交通部，有的是屬於內政部，地方的需求很強。主計長，他們這整個預算在編列的時候，提醒他們一下，考量地方的需求，譬如我舉……"],["陳主計長淑姿：可是我要跟委員報告，就是財劃法本身分配得非常不平均，所以以中央來講，他要刪減3,753億，那他要刪減，其實要優先刪減的就會是對於地方補助的計畫型補助，所以……"],["郭委員國文：就會受到更大的排擠，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，一定會受到排擠，所以這部分是不得不也沒有辦法。"],["郭委員國文：所以很困擾。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：但是明年我們要面對這個問題了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：財劃法，接下來我們要面對的這個問題是一個大問題……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：比今天我們要處理一般性的補助款更大。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：可是地方的需求還是增加，譬如，我再跟你問一個問題，交通部有提一個公路建設的改善計畫，60億的部分，聽說行政院到現在遲遲還沒有核准，還在卡關。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為沒辦法核，必須要等……"],["郭委員國文：也就是因為財劃法的問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，沒辦法。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：因為這個問題一直卡在這邊，這不是辦法！"],["主席：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：一切都是亂刪預算的結果，造成地方建設的停滯……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：在野黨亂搞、胡搞、瞎搞所造成的結果嘛！"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在休息10分鐘。"],["郭委員國文：主席不讓我講。"],["主席：我今天對每一個人都一樣。","休息（12時2分）","繼續開會（12時13分）"],["主席：向委員報告，我們繼續開會。","請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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- 11:59:29","影片長度":"00:15:52","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai 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只有凱達格蘭大道我們大家知道因為它牽扯著住戶啊還有有用到凱達格蘭大道的身份證或人民生活太少了嘛凱達格蘭大道真的我這點本席也就本席的了解也是它最成功那現在你要求各縣市政府去進行有沒有"},{"start":260.463,"end":279.662,"text":"报告委员我们不敢要求我特别提到说中央政府要跟地方政府要沟通那你是由上而上还是由上而下按照地方制度法是由下而上对嘛由下而上那一定是地方有共识他才会做嘛是不是那现在如果地方没共识你会硬推吗"},{"start":280.302,"end":295.003,"text":"我沒有第一個我第一個沒有法則然後第二個我剛剛有提到轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義社會溝通那我剛剛有特別提到說如果造成對立就表示說我們的溝通不是很完整"},{"start":295.744,"end":312.271,"text":"或者是實施的不完整才會造成一些實施要看各地方政府因為很多地方政府他們的街道改名的機制有他們的自治準則一定要溝通完整嘛社會有共識而且由下而上目前有"},{"start":312.811,"end":335.596,"text":"任何一個區域有這樣的符合這樣的情況嗎我剛有跟委員報告過你說台南是嗎現在我知道的台南那其實更早台南OK那就這樣台南嘛你答案就是台南嘛是那更早以前在那台南實施的情況你有了解嗎就台南實施下去台南的部分的話他們也是天怒人怨而且好像做到現在做在2022年開始做到現在"},{"start":338.297,"end":358.066,"text":"他做了170公尺之後他就很難往下黃偉哲市長他特別說接下來他要以衝擊最小爭議最少的區域來優先逐步推動不求一次到位他是希望達成這個目標但是呢"},{"start":358.826,"end":381.714,"text":"他也發現說不容易而且現在整個的戶政還有整個的地圖系統各方面整個混亂啦民眾生活整個被受不受影響我們還沒有改怎麼會有混亂呢有心要推動那慢慢來推動然後有共識這是我們基本的想法所以我剛剛有特別提到你程序正義上一定要合法合規那轉型正義條例已經有"},{"start":384.255,"end":385.397,"text":"還有社會溝通不要產生政黨之間的對立現在就是不要造成民怨還有民眾的困擾"},{"start":399.298,"end":424.176,"text":"我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡第一個轉型正義條例已經是2017年從第八第九屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論而且他已經是成案我現在講的是執行面執行面所以現在你入民更改難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎"},{"start":425.65,"end":452.141,"text":"我沒有問你我只是你心裡想一下所以我不用回答對這個影響到人民生活非常多那已經有實施的台南市他都發現哇不行緩下來那所以我還是認同但是他沒有停止啊他是緩步推動緩步推動能夠有社會共識所以我非常了解包括所以你認同嘛對台南市我還沒有請你回答所以我才說我們是協助地方政府我沒有說一步到位啊"},{"start":453.321,"end":476.146,"text":"所以我們現在是在討論所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識然後才能進行但是如果強推的結果就是造成台南他自己有感受到真的不好推更重要我要講的是我們做任何事你的各方面的完善"},{"start":477.006,"end":498.757,"text":"那包含剛剛也很多人提到我想你的經費你大概也要預估一下我的時間的關係我就不跟你再往下你經費如果你真的全國要推你的經費有沒有到位你自己要去這個衡量再來就是報告委員他是用基金預算你那個基金對我有看一下你知道你那個基金現在有多少錢嗎"},{"start":499.597,"end":517.277,"text":"你知道嗎基金預算不是說有多少錢基金預算就是說你本與你的任務需求在申請的時候基金就有這個一個他的一個審查文會然後他會在編列的時候把它放進去你是不是用促轉基金嘛是那是國發會主管的對促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":518.376,"end":534.116,"text":"那是國發會的不是說有多少錢不是他不是用他不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行你基金需要多少錢他會再撥進去跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的就本席了解他那個基金好像是從好像國民黨那個黨產弄過來的"},{"start":536.297,"end":565.105,"text":"妳確定是撥補的嗎在促短條例裡面是這樣子沒有錯而且我所了解是有經費但是經費有多少我還需要細查報告所以那這樣好了會後請你提供你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告說總共全國如果要改中正路有多少條然後那你估一下要多少錢你會後估了一下要多少錢全國整個下去要多少錢你再提供給我們我相信你現在說不出來"},{"start":565.845,"end":577.912,"text":"要多少錢因為這是要地方政府報上來不是由我們去幫他預估因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾那以前的台中市在處理台灣大道的時候他們所用的經費是幾百萬好 現在"},{"start":581.554,"end":609.981,"text":"如果說中正路要改名我問你那台北市中正區還有像那個中正國小中正大學中正高中甚至如果說經國路也要改的話經國管理學院我們中正一分局甚至經國號戰機是不是要改所以除了好像不只內政部那這樣教育部國防部這個都要改吧是不是都要進行改名啊"},{"start":611.115,"end":638.757,"text":"是 但是我現在在內政部就是我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務我來處理的所以最後針對這個部分我想我一個結論就是說希望內政部不要不管食物報告我內政部的事情真的是非常的多而雜不是完全噁心殺或者吃飽沒事幹的中正堂改名你應該沒有社會共識吧你應該就是下命令吧中正堂"},{"start":643.171,"end":671.529,"text":"中正堂改名哪裏的中正堂不是中正紀念堂沒有沒有我們只有處理那個街道那個巷弄啊這個是沒有沒有如果地方有中正兩個字的我跟你講我的選區裏面他有一個活動中心叫中正堂他們就反應不勝其擾啊你們每年都公文去然後他們呢老實講地方沒共識他還是得回你嘛公務單位所以他就他就"},{"start":672.969,"end":689.697,"text":"有一點呼嚨的草率也回應了所以這一塊如果這個要有共識的那我想你這個他們到現在沒動但你內政部函詢已經很多次而且要求他每年的進度要回報這個公文"},{"start":691.038,"end":704.167,"text":"所以我只是強調我們做任何事真的我們支持但是合法合理之外還要顧及我們民眾的感受不好意思最後這個建築法我問簡單兩個問題一個就是我們"},{"start":708.67,"end":732.572,"text":"建築法56條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度那內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府了那可是我們看到整個全國近五年整個零損的案例非常非常的多你授權地方政府你授權地方政府但實際上"},{"start":734.033,"end":745.128,"text":"好像為什麼不我們中央來統一我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話那我們整個把它規範好為什麼不做"},{"start":746.209,"end":771.131,"text":"原因是什麼?根文報告啦,因為其實這樣的條文在簡單來講就是說過去107年曾經討論過但是其實當時就引發非常多爭議就是在所謂的第三方勘驗的一個執行單位到底是建築師、土木技師、結構技師那是在什麼樣的程度下去介入那後來因為各個工會的見解也不一"},{"start":771.691,"end":790.669,"text":"那地方政府的見解不一所以後來大家才同意說不要放在母法而是授權地方政府依實務看看哪個階段需要是哪個工會是哪些單位去做那這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務而不要強制在56條直接去加當時的概念是這樣"},{"start":791.229,"end":806.119,"text":"不是在實務你還是可以在法條中依據實務給他一個應該這麼說因為這樣反而給地方政府他比較有實際上的權限因為地方政府他本來就有這樣的一個狀況現在地方政府的話產生的問題很大吧"},{"start":808.86,"end":833.774,"text":"公文報告很多所謂的臨損它其實是過程中而不是在勘驗階段的成果所以勘驗是指它過程的結果其實更大的爭議就是說對於建築的建設公司要求完善這一塊我們中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令因為其實這個發生在各縣市都很多的問題"},{"start":835.068,"end":862.278,"text":"包含天坑各方面的事件也跟我們報告啦因為其實過程當中的問題是最難去處理就是說因為譬如說像我們沒關係啦那我們這樣我們討論法條的時候再來最後最後一題啦現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整沒有人力也是空談我們發現我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多但報道率都大概"},{"start":863.058,"end":865.7,"text":"不到三分之一這個問題凸顯什麼問題也跟我們報告啦其實它有很多面向的問題啦現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題建築實務上來講就是說民間的待遇可能都比較高這也是一個問題"},{"start":882.594,"end":907.253,"text":"那部長有沒有可能這個待遇有沒有可能公務人員都一致在工程會跟人事總署在上個月有開會我們也有表達一些意見就是說對於這一個專業的加級然後對於這一個職等的調升或者是對於相關月聘僱人員勞務承攬人員的一個待遇的提升我們都有提供一些建議給"},{"start":910.184,"end":937.517,"text":"給這個人總跟這個工程會你剛剛講了一堆但是現在我們的公務人員而且是專業的那我們需求的是正式的缺額的我都補不足了所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急不然你一次全部要他當然不會答應我們也有包含所謂剛剛講的月聘僱人員因為有些地方這種他會需要用到月聘僱人員那甚至有些是勞務承攬人員我想我們這都有提供一些建議了好"},{"start":939.419,"end":947.411,"text":"但是我們絕對不要還是要繼續爭取啦不然你這樣問題還是很大嘛沒錯 這個我們還是會持續去爭取的謝謝委員好 謝謝徐信委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時43分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。我們在討論建築法之前，本席也要跟您討論一下有關最近您引起的中正路改名爭議，如果我沒有聽錯的話，前面好像有些委員在質詢的時候，您對於中正路的改名好像說是依據轉型正義條例，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是。清除威權象徵是法定義務，在我們的促進轉型正義條例第五條跟第十一條之二裡面有規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，是依據這個嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們了解很多事情您是有所依據的，您說這個是法定義務，它是條例有規定，但跟法定義務好像不完全等號吧？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有。報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：它是法定義務？"],["劉部長世芳：在第十一條之二裡面寫得非常清楚，它就直接點名在促轉會結束部分階段性任務之後，有關於跟地方制度相關的，包括道路的命名等等，就是由內政部來負責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！由內政部負責，但是法律有規範跟它是法定義務不一樣吧？所以它不見得是法定義務，我跟你講，如果是法定義務的話，我請問你……"],["劉部長世芳：法定任務。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，是任務嘛！不是義務。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：任務跟義務真的不一樣，好，所以是法定任務，那本席就要繼續往下，既然它是一個任務，所以您要來做，其實法律有規定，我們也支持，也應該要這樣做。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你要做的這個過程，你有先去了解這個做下去，怎麼樣完善嗎？還是你引起整個人民生活，包含地方政府的大混亂，你有去了解嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想是這樣子，第一個，促轉條例第十一條之二通過的時候，距離目前應該是兩年前跟三年前的事情，所以當時這樣規範下來的話，內政部已經先做了一部分的處理，這部分的處理我們在以前有報告整個數據提供參考，就是比較簡易的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：儘量重點式回答我的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：就是塑像、雕像，或是這個部分能夠移除的就先移除，我所了解移除最多的，很多人都是把塑像移到桃園大溪。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係。我現在是針對路，好不好？就是你現在在執行的路名……"],["劉部長世芳：路的部分在我們委託南臺科技大學裡面，它有提到這是第四個模式，在第四個模式裡面，剛剛我有跟部分委員報告過，目前為止我們統計出來大概會有三百多件。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，我現在要了解的是，我們要做一件事，不管是地方政府、中央政府，大概都會預判怎麼做才會完善，而且很多東西要預估怎麼樣做下去，而不是突然間造成很大混亂，又達不成嘛！我的問題主要是這樣。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我了解委員的用意。所以我有提到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：到目前為止有在進行更改路名的，您知道有……"],["劉部長世芳：臺南市是有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有成功的案例？"],["劉部長世芳：凱達格蘭大道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，只有凱達格蘭大道，我們大家知道，因為它牽扯的住戶，還有用到凱達格蘭大道的身分證或人民生活的太少了嘛！凱達格蘭大道這點，就本席的了解也是它最成功。現在你要求各縣市政府去進行，有沒有……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們不敢要求。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好……"],["劉部長世芳：我特別提到中央政府要跟地方政府溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：太好了，對嘛！那你是由下而上，還是由上而下？"],["劉部長世芳：按照地方制度法是由下而上。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！由下而上，那一定是地方有共識，它才會做嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在如果地方沒共識，你會硬推嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，沒有罰則。第二個，我剛剛有提到，轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義、社會溝通。我剛有特別提到，如果造成對立，就表示我們的溝通不是很完整，既然……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，或者是實施得不完整，才會造成一些……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，實施要看各地方政府，因為很多地方政府的街道改名機制有它們的自治準則。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，你剛剛已經講了一定要溝通完整，社會有共識，而且由下而上，目前有任何一個區域符合這樣的情況嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛有跟委員報告過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說臺南市嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：現在我知道的臺南其實更早……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那就這樣，臺南嘛！你的答案就是臺南嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，更早以前在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：臺南實施的情況你有了解嗎？臺南實施下去也是天怒人怨，而且好像從2022年開始做到現在，前面只做了……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，它更早。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，它更早，它做了170公尺之後就很難往下，黃偉哲市長特別說接下來要以衝擊最小、爭議最少的區域優先逐步推動，不求一次到位，他是希望達成這個目標，但是他也發現不容易，而且現在整個戶政，還有整個地圖系統各方面整個混亂，民眾生活整個受到影響。"],["劉部長世芳：我們還沒有改，怎麼會有混亂呢？有心要推動，慢慢來推動，然後有共識，這是我們基本的想法。所以我剛剛有特別提到，程序正義上一定要合法合規，轉型正義條例已經有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，而且你有講，你絕對不會強制嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：還有社會溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，然後不會強制。"],["劉部長世芳：不要產生那種政黨之間的對立。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，政黨也不會對立啦！"],["劉部長世芳：但是我也要跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在就是不要造成民怨，還有民眾的困擾，我想很多人……"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡？第一個，轉型正義條例已經是2017年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！我現在跟你講的是……"],["劉部長世芳：從第8、第9屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論，而且它已經是成案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK、OK，不要浪費時間好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在講的是執行面嘛！所以現在路名更改，難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎？我沒有問你，我只是要你心裡想一下。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我不用回答。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。這個影響到人民生活非常多，已經有實施的臺南市都發現，哇！不行，緩下來！所以我還是……"],["劉部長世芳：但是它沒有停止啊！它是緩步推動。"],["徐委員欣瑩：緩步……"],["劉部長世芳：能夠有社會共識。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我非常了解，包括……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你認同嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，臺南市……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我還沒有請你回答，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：所以我才說我們是協助地方政府，我沒有說一步到位啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我也沒說你說一步到位。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在是在討論，所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識，然後才能進行嘛！但是如果強推的結果就是造成……臺南自己有感受到真的不好推。更重要我要講的是，我們做任何事要各方面的完善，包含剛剛也有很多人提到，你的經費大概也要預估一下，我的時間的關係，我就不跟你再往下了，如果真的全國要推，你的經費有沒有到位？你自己要去衡量。再來就是……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，它是用基金預算……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有要你回答。"],["劉部長世芳：對不起。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我有看一下，你知道那個基金現在有多少錢嗎？你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：基金預算不是說有多少錢，基金預算就是本於任務需求，在申請的時候，基金就有一個審查委員會，然後會在編列的時候把它放進去。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是不是用促轉基金嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是，那是國發會主管的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：那是國發會的，不是說有多少錢，它不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行，基金需要多少錢，它會再撥補進去，跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就本席了解，它那個基金好像是從國民黨黨產弄過來的，你確定是撥補的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：在促轉條例裡面是這樣子沒有錯，而且我所了解是有經費，但是經費有多少，我還需要細查，報告委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣好了，會後請你提供，你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告，全國如果要改，中正路總共有多少條，你估一下要多少錢，全國整個做下去要多少錢，會後你再提供給我們，我相信你現在說不出來要多少錢。"],["劉部長世芳：因為這是要由地方政府報上來，不是由我們去幫它預估，因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在這樣啦……"],["劉部長世芳：以前的臺中市在處理臺灣大道的時候，它們所用的經費是幾百萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要再浪費我的時間了。如果中正路要改名，我問你，臺北市中正區，還有中正國小、中正大學、中正高中，甚至如果經國路也要改的話，經國管理學院、中正一分局，甚至經國號戰機是不是要改？好像不止是內政部，這樣教育部、國防部的部分也都要改吧？是不是都要進行改名？"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是我現在在內政部……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道你的答案一定是這樣。"],["劉部長世芳：我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務，我來處理了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以最後針對這個部分，我一個結論，希望內政部不要不管實務，要讓民眾……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，內政部的事情真的是非常多而雜，不是完全「五四三」或者吃飽沒事幹。"],["徐委員欣瑩：中正堂改名應該沒有社會共識吧？你應該就是下命令吧？"],["劉部長世芳：哪裡的中正堂？因為我們只處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是中正紀念堂。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我們只有處理街道巷弄，這個是促轉會依據第十一條……"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果地方有「中正」兩個字的，我跟你講，我的選區裡面有一個活動中心叫「中正堂」，他們就反映不勝其擾啊！你們每年都公文去，老實講他們地方沒共識，但還是得回公務單位嘛，所以就有一點糊弄的、草率的也回應了。所以這一塊如果是要有共識的，他們到現在沒動，但內政部已經函詢很多次，而且這個公文要求他們要回報每年的進度。好，所以我只是強調啦，做任何事我們支持，但是合法、合理之外，真的還要顧及我們民眾的感受。","不好意思喔！最後建築法我問簡單兩個問題啦，一個就是建築法第五十六條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度，而內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府，可是我們看到全國近5年鄰損的案例非常非常的多，你授權地方政府，但實際上好像……為什麼不由中央來統一？我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話，我們整個把它規範好，為什麼不做？原因是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實這樣的條文在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：簡答，因為我時間已經不夠。"],["吳署長欣修：簡單來講，過去其實107年曾經討論過，但是當時就引發非常多爭議，就是所謂第三方勘驗的執行單位到底是建築師？土木技師？結構技師？是在什麼樣的程度下去介入？後來因為各個公會的見解也不一，地方政府的見解也不一，所以大家才同意不要放在母法，而是授權地方政府依實務，看哪個階段需要是哪個公會？哪些單位去做？這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務，而不要強制在第五十六條直接去加，當時的概念是這樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你說在實務，但在法條中是依據實務給給它一個……"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，因為這樣反而給地方政府比較有實際上的權限，因為地方政府本來就有這樣的一個狀況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，那你了解吧？現在地方政府產生的問題很大吧！"],["吳署長欣修：很多所謂的鄰損其實是過程中，而不是在勘驗階段的成果，所謂勘驗是指它過程的結果……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，其實更大的爭議是對於建設公司要求完繕，這一塊中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令？因為這個在各縣市都發生很多的問題，跟包含天坑、各方面的事件。"],["吳署長欣修：也跟委員報告，過程當中的問題最難去處理，因為比如像我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我們討論法條的時候再來。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後一題，現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整，沒有人力也是空談，我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多，但報到率大概都不到三分之一，這個凸顯什麼問題？"],["吳署長欣修：其實它有很多面向的問題，現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題，建築實務上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以他們不願意來？"],["吳署長欣修：實務上來講，民間的待遇可能都比較高，這也是一個問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啦，待遇是很大的問題。部長，待遇有沒有可能調高？不可能？公務人員都一致？"],["吳署長欣修：其實上個月我們在工程會跟人事總處有開會，我們也有表達一些意見，對於專業的加給，對於職等的調升，或者是對於相關約聘僱人員、勞務承攬人員待遇的提升，我們都有提供一些建議給人總跟工程會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你剛剛講了一堆，但是現在我們的公務人員，而且是專業的，我們需求的正式缺額都補不足了，所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急，不然你一次全部要，它當然不會答應啊！"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，我們也有包含剛剛講的所謂約聘僱人員，因為有些地方政府會需要用到約聘僱人員，甚至有些是勞務承攬人員，我們都有提供一些建議了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，但是我們還是要繼續爭取啦，不然你這樣問題還是很大嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，這個我們還是會持續去爭取。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","報告委員會，登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","丁學忠委員所提書面質詢，我們列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98289866c50cbce66de455f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aed019e904b7422748d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:35:55 - 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:35:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:43:26+08:00","duration":451,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.287218750000001,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.442843750000002,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.61159375,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.712843750000001,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.500968750000002,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.96471875,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.08346875,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.47534375,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.094718750000006,"end":53.625968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.963468750000004,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.60034375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.73909375,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.47284375,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.11346875000001,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.23971875000001,"end":70.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.65284375,"end":72.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":73.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.75784375,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.17534375000001,"end":75.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.96846875,"end":76.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.13284375,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.37284375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.31284375,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.69659375,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.85659375,"end":93.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.50159375000001,"end":101.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.78721875000001,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.94721875,"end":105.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.44471875,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.97596875,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.35534375,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.16909375,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.89471875000001,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.26909375000001,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.88909375,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.90596875000001,"end":124.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.92284375000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.03659375000001,"end":126.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.82971875000001,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.86346875000001,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.42034375000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.48784375000001,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.28909375,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.30596875,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.32284375,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.12846875,"end":132.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.00159375,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.33909375000002,"end":134.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.19971875000002,"end":136.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.76909375,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.25409375,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.87409375000001,"end":140.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.41784375,"end":144.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.46846875,"end":143.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.97034375,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.89784375000002,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.39534375000002,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.40784375,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.57221875000002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Kacaw委員：事實上是這樣，你也知道我等一下也會繼續談過去一直還沒有完成的部分，確實有需要，只不過是因為地方政府有時候沒有去考慮到實際的問題，然後有這樣的法律授權，但是它並沒有做很好的處理，當然，未來這個條文還會再討論應該要怎麼修正才會是最好的部分，所以在這段時間……剛才有提到一個月，能夠把各縣市政府目前已經定的，它有什麼樣相同的或是不同的，做為我們審查條文時的參考可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：可以，我們當然是希望透過授權，因為授權地方的因地制宜性會比較好，所以現在大原則上是盡可能鼓勵地方政府有完整的東西去談，至於母法上，我們還是保持它原來的彈性就可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，因為畢竟要審查嘛，所以我們需要了解目前已經有定的縣市政府的條文的差異如何，好不好？做一個整理。","另外，也提了很多次了，當然你等一下會說因為國土計畫法又延長了，但是還是要去解決原鄉這些部落、這些土地竟然不能蓋房子，而都會區的山坡地……像基隆、新北這些都會區的山坡地比我們在原鄉部落的還陡，他們竟然可以蓋大樓，我們連蓋一般的建築都不行了，因為它是林業用地或是其他的用地，這個部分畢竟還是要去解決，而且關於解決的方式，我們共同去思考原住民的部落怎麼樣先行，在國土計畫法裡面有沒有可能有解釋的空間？如果沒有解釋的空間，那怎麼樣去修剩下一條的條文還是怎麼樣去先解決，好不容易原民會跟內政部都已經有一個很好的方向，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：這部分也跟委員報告，我們其實還在持續精進內容，就是在土管的部分還在持續精進，具體的作法我們會持續精進，我們希望到時候推出來是一個更完整的東西，當然包含最近關於偏遠地區的地方的辦法如果出來，我想我們內部也會再跟國土組這邊去討論，就看看這個有沒有可以參考的依據，併同土管，兩個都一起來檢討看看，這我們可以再來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位我們請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","好，最後我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162225","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98287cc87882a38e40a955f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aed0283c51cbb0d84855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:24:08 - 11:32:53","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:24:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:32:53+08:00","duration":525,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.654718750000001,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.927843750000001,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.05409375,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.47784375,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.21784375,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.35034375,"end":67.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.44659375,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.83034375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.67784375000001,"end":81.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.48221875,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.60409375,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.78096875,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.91971875,"end":95.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.42534375000001,"end":99.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.58471875000001,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.13221875,"end":109.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.44409375000001,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.22784375,"end":124.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.07471875,"end":128.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.66909375,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.91659375,"end":141.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.54471875000002,"end":144.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.22784375,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.04159375,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.76721875,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.67846875,"end":151.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.29409375,"end":152.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.47534375,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.44971875000002,"end":157.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.54221875000002,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.37284375000002,"end":162.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.49909375000001,"end":166.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.58721875,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.13534375,"end":169.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.72596875000002,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.26159375,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.78846875000002,"end":178.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.48409375,"end":180.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.50909375,"end":193.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.94159375,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.59534375,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.72596875000002,"end":200.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.42159375,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.18471875,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.43596875,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.11846875,"end":223.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.35471875000002,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.39221875,"end":232.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.93971875000003,"end":236.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.83784375000002,"end":237.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.44534375,"end":245.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.78159375,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.81909375,"end":257.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.21846875,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.43534375,"end":275.56596875}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主席 議會同仁 請我們國土署署長讓部長休息一下吳市長有請委員好好 署長市長今天我們大家在討論建築法的修正草案其實我們現在大家關心的就是整個建築結構的安全性"},{"start":29.557,"end":44.623,"text":"尤其我們台灣是在我們的地層帶上面所以我們光是本市在這邊的資料我們的全國有500戶的超過30年那超過30年在新北市遇到"},{"start":47.135,"end":71.629,"text":"前幾天海沙屋的問題包含山蟲海沙屋天花板都掉下來還傷了小朋友所以說我們針對海沙屋來做討論海沙屋為什麼整個整棟的海沙屋要重建會那麼慢速度搭配合度也不是那麼高"},{"start":72.969,"end":96.521,"text":"因為問題出在哪裡 就是我們要找出這個問題其實海沙湖的問題要怎麼解決 很多大地下已經都枯了但是你枯 你說 說大家要參加整個都建也好 整個重建也好其實他們都樂意 但是問題出在說 他們在這段期間要怎麼來解決他們大的問題"},{"start":101.773,"end":131.185,"text":"所以他們大的問題,現在我們的中央政府在大力的推動我們的社宅我們社宅,是不是說在它那個附近,我們社宅第一件好了是不是說,他們在海沙屋要怎麼讓他們可以在他們的條件可以放寬畢竟他們去後,他們就搬回來了嘛所以這樣才可以去改觀說,他們要整個來參加整個都更也好"},{"start":132.444,"end":146.718,"text":"整個推動的速度我認為這樣才可以先去改觀他們大問題對於它的容積要怎麼提升因為海沙屋在全國都有光是我們整個港三重那些媒體在報導"},{"start":148.103,"end":162.285,"text":"包含在本市的轄區土層會被移動是海沙屋所以說海沙屋大家面臨著說要搬 要參與都更搭住的問題"},{"start":163.55,"end":187.057,"text":"然後你農機要怎樣來提升讓他們不用再去負擔那麼龐大的金額這是這裡可以改觀啦不然你說政府要推動他說全國我們真的都更的速度還是非常的慢啦所以說你要先提供這個問題我們要怎麼改觀請新北市請全國各縣市大家來開會就是要共同討論讓大家請出問題"},{"start":191.26,"end":212.744,"text":"可以謹慎說 他們住在那裡 他們的負擔的問題 他們住在的問題我們要去想辦法來替他們解套 這才有辦法來推動好像沒辦法替他們解套 當然啊 你說一棟裡面不是每一個人想法都一樣啊 起碼都有幾個他們不同意不同意的問題在哪裡 是不是這個部分是對的"},{"start":217.12,"end":235.688,"text":"感謝委員 其實這個都更的過程中 所謂的中紀委會的概念在過去都有提出 但是跟社宅搭配是一個不錯的理念但是重點的處理說 它是最終的時間點很難搭配在一起 與我們社宅一組是組三檔"},{"start":237.549,"end":254.164,"text":"所以你要當地說到你決定要當時要拿的時候,那當時的租金不一定有大可以出租的社債我們社債也不可能扛在那裡等你所以這是事務上一個比較大的問題所以說我們剛才是一個中那個規定,當時它可以搬出來,要搬出來"},{"start":258.268,"end":265.296,"text":"這時間點跟社宅在出租的時間點,往往是對不起來的,我們不可能把社宅調過去空起來,放在那裡都沒有租,現在單一來租,我想這是無窮,這都不經過跟地方,這是無窮比較有一個困難,第二點就是說"},{"start":276.549,"end":297.833,"text":"這個租金的成本就是我處理,我沒有大小財,我處理多好租租金的成本,我們在這個都更的成本裡面就已經有納入了本來就已經同意這次有納入,它是成本那所以在這個成本上,一般來講就可以省一萬元對於這個健康來講,這應該就要省一萬元所以這是,當然過去的情形就是說常常去說就是,我差不多安省這個工廠是適當"},{"start":306.215,"end":314.286,"text":"結果我實際在操作的時候,有可能拖過,還要再延伸一些情緒,同時簽的是簽4年而已,4年過你要自己負擔,所以這是一個開始需要檢討的,第三就是海鯊魚的容積本來就不錯,"},{"start":322.336,"end":346.475,"text":"因為它本來我們的獎勵就是直接圓融1.3我就直接給你啦都不用再去整個做什麼所以就現實來講的話海鯊屋現在在過程中協調是中的過程中最困難的原因就是說很多海鯊屋它不是整棟都海鯊屋因為大家都知道你如果在我這家家裡海鯊屋我的天堂如果是海鯊屋的時候那個蠟就蠟到讓你用得沒那麼大"},{"start":348.416,"end":368.072,"text":"但是不是整棟都這樣,最怕有的沒中,有的中,有的沒中,他們的心態是比較不一樣所以這也是我們過去是不太適合的,最困難的就是兩個住戶的心情感受不一樣所以對於都更的急迫性有時候是不太一樣的"},{"start":368.812,"end":390.307,"text":"所以這地方政府在協調規定是比較辛苦但是通過這個簡化的過程針對海沙屋我們現在已經做得很放寬因為申請元榮1.3它是直接就通過了所以我們要讓委員了解這個規定因為我們收到的就是因為不是全面性的海沙屋就是一萬戶一萬戶我們做很多沒中的"},{"start":393.769,"end":409.716,"text":"他們的意願都不高所以說整個都要推動都是有困難本身土生土生在我們海珊捷運站出來也有一棟海砂屋也是一樣一樣面臨這個問題但是這個問題你總是要想辦法來改觀所以說你說像現在我們的老舊房子全國五百戶"},{"start":418.36,"end":432.433,"text":"你光是新北就佔了一百五十戶你說一百五十戶五百萬跟一百五十萬對一百五十萬戶你說這真的說因為過去公益性的這種的結構體絕對跟大樓絕對不一樣你如果說地震來這種的我們的公益性的這種的房子是非常非常所以說你剛才說速度要快你說用修繕的三年"},{"start":444.804,"end":449.631,"text":"我們去年又編了五十億但是稍微對海沙屋比較沒辦法"},{"start":454.451,"end":470.522,"text":"他們幫助不大啦 這是一整棵啊所以我們要怎麼推動這個速度會比較快未來階段我們可以檢討這個損失這是應該我們地方政府要來檢討的不然你說如果事情再發生的時候再來檢討這樣已經太慢了是 這我們會再來找地方政府電機開好的時候再來研究看他們針對這個海沙烏的這個看還有什麼新的建議可以來加速啦"},{"start":482.27,"end":487.873,"text":"這方面我們繼續來探討因為你過去的地方你沒有去設定說海鯊魚還是說麵糧要多一點的要切粗的在這個條件我們是不是把它納入進去讓它未來多重選擇"},{"start":501.823,"end":513.957,"text":"我瞭解 我可能就是未來看電影政府來建議啦 就是說有一些招租的條件裡面啦不過重點就是我們兩個的時間要對的對啦 時間如果對不對也是我懷疑他就有那個機會嘛瞭解 這我們來看電影政府再來討論一下好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時24分）主席、與會同仁。請國土署署長，讓部長休息一下。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：有請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，今天大家在討論建築法的修正草案，其實現在大家關心的就是整個建築結構的安全性，尤其臺灣在地震帶上面，光是本席這邊的資料，全國有500戶超過30年。前幾天新北市遇到海砂屋的問題，包含三重的海砂屋天花板都掉下來，還砸傷了小朋友，所以我們針對海砂屋來做討論，為什麼整棟的海砂屋重建會那麼慢？速度及配合度也不是那麼高，問題出在哪裡？我們要找出源頭。","海砂屋的問題要怎麼解決？很多人住在那裡已經很久，雖然很久了，但突然要大家參加都更也好、重建也好，其實他們都樂意，但是問題出在這段期間要怎麼解決他們住的問題，對於他們住的問題，現在中央政府大力推動社宅：第一，是不是在那個附近將社宅建好，對海砂屋住戶可以放寬申請條件？畢竟等重建後，他們就會搬回去，才能加速他們參加都更整體推動的速度，我認為這樣才能先解決他們住的問題。第二，它的容積要怎麼提升？因為海砂屋在全國都有，光是前幾天媒體報導三重的事件，包含在本席轄區的土城也有一棟是海砂屋，大家面臨海砂屋要搬遷、要參與都更都會有住的問題，而容積要怎樣來提升，讓他們不用再去負擔那麼龐大的金額，這件事情才能被解決，不然你說政府要推動，全國都更的速度還是非常地慢。所以署長，你要針對這個問題，你們要怎麼解決？請新北市及全國各縣市大家來開會，就是要共同討論，讓大家找出問題，可以減輕海砂屋住戶他們負擔的問題、他們遇到的問題，我們要想辦法替他們解套，這才有辦法來推動，如果你沒辦法替他們解套，當然在一棟大樓裡面，不是每個人想法都一樣，起碼都會有幾戶他們不同意，但不同意的問題出在哪裡，是不是針對這個部分請署長說明？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實都更過程中有所謂中繼屋的概念，過去大概都有提出，跟社宅搭配是一個不錯的理念，但是重點就出在實際上的時間點很難搭配在一起，因為我們社宅一承租是租三年，等到你決定什麼時候要拆除重建，那時候周圍不一定有剛好要出租的社宅，社宅也不可能空在那裡等他們，這是實務上一個比較大的問題，就是在都更過程中，什麼時候他可以搬出來，這個時間點跟社宅出租的時間點往往是對不上的，我們不可能把社宅故意空出來、放在那裡都不出租，等他們來承租，這和地方政府都有經過討論，實務上是比較有困難的。","第二點，關於租金的成本，假如我搬出去、沒有住在社宅，而是去外面承租，我們原本在都更成本裡面就已經納入租金的成本，本來就已經同意納入，它是成本，所以在成本上本來就可以算進去，對於建商來講，這應該就要算進去，這是第二點。當然過去的爭論常常是預計工程差不多是四年，結果實際操作有可能會超過，中間再衍生一些爭議，說當初是簽四年而已，等四年過後，你要自己負擔，這是中間一個確實需要檢討的地方。","第三點，因為海砂屋的容積本來就不錯，本來我們的獎勵就是直接原容積的1.3倍，我就直接給你了，都不用再增加做什麼，就現實來講的話，海砂屋現在在過程中，協調是中間過程裡最困難的，原因就是很多海砂屋不是整棟都海砂屋，大家都知道家裡天花板如果是海砂屋時，剝落的天花板會讓你真的無法居住，但不是整棟都這樣，最怕的就是有的不會剝落、有的會剝落，兩者心態就會比較不同，這也是我們過去實務上遇到操作比較困難的地方，兩種住戶的心情、感受不一樣，對於都更的急迫性有時候是不太一樣，所以地方政府在協調過程中，老實說是比較辛苦，但是中間簡化的過程，針對海砂屋，老實說，現在已經很放寬了，因為申請原容積1.3倍是直接就通過了，也讓委員了解這個過程。"],["吳委員琪銘：我們所遇到的因為不是全面性的海砂屋，只有一半住戶。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對！"],["吳委員琪銘：只有一半住戶卻造成沒有海砂屋的住戶意願都不高，所以整個推動都會有困難。"],["吳署長欣修：是啦。"],["吳委員琪銘：本席轄區的土城在海山捷運站出來也有一棟海砂屋，也是一樣面臨這個問題，但你總是要想辦法來解決這個問題，像現在我們的老舊房舍全國500戶，光是新北就占了150戶，你說150戶……"],["吳署長欣修：500萬跟150萬。"],["吳委員琪銘：對！150萬戶。因為過去公寓型的這種結構體跟大樓絕對是不一樣，如果發生地震，這種公寓型的房子是非常危險，所以你說都更速度要快，我們去年又編了50億，但是修繕的……"],["吳署長欣修：修繕對海砂屋比較沒辦法解決。"],["吳委員琪銘：對啊！對結構幫助不大啦！這你是專業啊！"],["吳署長欣修：結構沒辦法處理啦！是。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以我們要怎麼推動讓速度比較快，對於未來地震時，我們可以減少損失，這應該是中央政府要檢討的，不然等到事情再發生的時候再來檢討，這就已經太慢了。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們找地方政府在定期開會的時候再來研究，看他們針對海砂屋還有什麼新的建議，可以來加速推動。"],["吳委員琪銘：對啦！"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分，我們再繼續探討。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為過去社宅沒有去設定像海砂屋或面臨都更要找房子的住戶，這些條件是不是把它納入，讓他們未來可以多重選擇？"],["吳署長欣修：是，我了解。可能就是未來跟地方政府建議納入在招租的條件裡面，不過重點就是兩個時間要對得到，時間如果對不到也是沒辦法。"],["吳委員琪銘：是啦！是啦！如果能這樣，自然他就有機會。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，我們跟地方政府再來討論一下。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。","報告委員會，我們現在處理臨時提案，請宣讀。","有鑑於過去原鄉地區土地與建築相關法規規劃與執行方式過於粗糙與武斷，致使當地族人之居住安全與空間使用權益長期受損，亟需改善。","《建築法》第99條之1雖明定：「都市計畫以外地區或偏遠地區建築物得予簡化管理」，並授權地方政府擬訂簡化管理辦法報請內政部核定。惟實務上，部分縣市迄未訂定辦法，或僅形式應對，難以實質回應原鄉實際需要。","為加速解決原鄉長期以來的居住問題，爰請貴部於一個月內研議辦理下列事項，俾利全面提升地方政府簡化制度規劃與執行效能：","(一)儘速訂定通案性指導原則，協助並督促各縣市依法訂定簡化管理辦法，並提供必要之技術指導。","(二)整理現行各地建築簡化辦法內容，進行彙整對照，作為地方參照依據，亦可據以彈性因應原鄉特殊情況。","提案人：高金素梅　王美惠　　許宇甄　　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　麥玉珍　　李柏毅　　黃　捷　　吳琪銘　　徐欣瑩　　牛煦庭"],["主席：請問委員會，對於臨時提案的內容有無異議？（無）沒有，我們照案通過，謝謝。等一下，不好意思。"],["劉部長世芳：對啦！我想委員不會反對啦，因為好多部會，所以內政部不要寫貴部，再來就是縣市要寫縣市政府，這樣比較明確，沒有其他的，因為文字已經修正，委員看過了。"],["主席：我們把……第三段對不對？OK，我說明一下，第二段第三行，「部分縣市」把它加兩個字改成「部分縣市政府」；第三段第一行「貴部」改成「內政部」；第三段第三行後面，督促各縣市一樣加「縣市政府」；然後第三段倒數第二行一樣，「作為地方政府參照依據」，為以上文字修正，請問委員會有沒有問題？（無）好，文字修正通過，謝謝。","報告委員會，我們繼續進行詢答。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","下一位我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828891d5a9e2d0f64d855f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aed397bebad73bfe8b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:11:25 - 11:24:03","影片長度":"00:12:38","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:11:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:24:03+08:00","duration":758,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.26284375,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.79409375,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.059093750000002,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.970343750000001,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.97534375,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.55784375,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.59784375000001,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.54284375,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.77784375,"end":131.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.75721875000002,"end":135.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.87471875,"end":142.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.97909375,"end":145.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.79721875,"end":156.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.96409375000002,"end":159.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.17909375000002,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.98409375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.23721875,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.82284375,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.68909375,"end":195.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.47721875000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.00471875000002,"end":226.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.57784375000003,"end":240.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.37346875000003,"end":239.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.36471875,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.68346875,"end":282.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.53534375000004,"end":285.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.20159375000003,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.09596875,"end":286.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.34471875,"end":295.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.56284375,"end":313.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.51784375,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.47846875000005,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.23721875,"end":376.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.09346875,"end":356.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.72534375000004,"end":363.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.11971875,"end":378.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.82409375000003,"end":390.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.85784375000003,"end":379.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.27784375000005,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.33846875,"end":418.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.53096875,"end":429.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.18346875000003,"end":428.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.99346875000003,"end":434.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.60034375000004,"end":435.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.62971875000005,"end":443.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.86034375,"end":444.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.87721875000005,"end":446.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.74159375000005,"end":451.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.84284375000004,"end":448.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.50909375000003,"end":450.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.50471875000005,"end":465.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.06784375,"end":471.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.97846875000005,"end":474.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.72909375,"end":502.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.06221875000006,"end":502.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.14659375,"end":506.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.16346875000005,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地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動"},{"start":210.427,"end":225.783,"text":"他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據"},{"start":226.704,"end":250.116,"text":"具有實質上的公益性的項目他去訂定相關再依據這個地價稅減免規則還有平定條例的規定他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦好你講了兩個重點嘛第一個就是說法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的但是我們今天談的重點倒不是說法定空地因為你空地你有獎勵措施那是一回事"},{"start":250.456,"end":280.047,"text":"但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的程式是這樣好 但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性"},{"start":280.488,"end":284.217,"text":"我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們"},{"start":287.423,"end":312.07,"text":"那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明"},{"start":313.57,"end":332.809,"text":"好 這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公益性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊"},{"start":337.677,"end":347.414,"text":"所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則"},{"start":349.562,"end":375.195,"text":"說明一下喔 剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港不是 我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛 對不對開放空間就更明確 因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它有它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛"},{"start":377.222,"end":401.93,"text":"所以你有相對在法律上 相對的權利與關係我的意思是講不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講他不是只是 他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公益性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇或者也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論給你去做思考好 這第一個 好"},{"start":402.31,"end":406.954,"text":"那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的"},{"start":418.761,"end":446.096,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計劃法那個台灣省市行細則的32條規定是用住宅區鑑別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的鑑別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用"},{"start":447.842,"end":453.425,"text":"沒有辦法做個切割只是用個推估的方法即使你用最低的10%也將近佔了30億那這個30億它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估"},{"start":466.112,"end":480.552,"text":"你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多因為這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算"},{"start":482.314,"end":500.487,"text":"這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了到成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得"},{"start":502.308,"end":529.936,"text":"對 平安委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下 到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以"},{"start":530.296,"end":535.417,"text":"但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合這個公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些私設道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法庭已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念"},{"start":556.041,"end":571.066,"text":"他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法令控令他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個之後就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充"},{"start":582.27,"end":611.389,"text":"所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是一個優化政案的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間"},{"start":612.63,"end":630.989,"text":"來做來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間 因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產品 可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少"},{"start":633.422,"end":661.068,"text":"我大概要三個月 三個月好不好 沒關係我覺得OK 因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的射算國土署 那我們也三個月好不好那個部分的話 我們在 因為地震還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署 地震是財政部 我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個 也許做個研商我贊成國土署這樣講 如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考 我覺得也很好"},{"start":661.488,"end":679.967,"text":"就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在嘛好不好那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看了很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分"},{"start":681.068,"end":703.985,"text":"這個你需要多少時間再做細緻溝通市長也給我們三個月 因為有很多是罰款的 罰單的問題的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子差距太大了市長 這個你就平均地的兩頁只有本席提案 所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案 我是覺得三個月好像太久了這個要不要短一點我還是建議 因為"},{"start":705.831,"end":718.144,"text":"案件太多了尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦"},{"start":718.766,"end":739.48,"text":"你還是要跟你講 但我是覺得三個月太短 那個啦 太久了啦這樣子好了啦 我給你一個月的時間 先做初步的研商然後一個月之後我會來 你再來跟本席聊 因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委 我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有 我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說財政部那個除外啦 就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛 對不對"},{"start":740.16,"end":756.217,"text":"但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多嘛我們大概會把各個案子的延伸結果就初步的延伸的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延伸建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷教委接下來請吳啟明委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時11分）謝謝主席。吳署長有請。"],["主席：請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長早安。我們具提平均地權條例第二十五條的修正，原因在於，為了達到地盡其利的宗旨，其實都有規定促進公益的土地應該是可以減免地價稅的，行政院可以根據平均地權條例或是土地稅法再去制定土地稅相關的減免規則。現行的狀況是，基本上無償供公眾通行的道路土地，就可以免徵地價稅；但是供公眾通行的法定空地，則予以排除。我們今天要談這個問題的原因是，地價稅基本上是針對土地可以帶來的收益跟量能來進行課稅，可是如果土地因為客觀上的法令限制，而使其喪失使用財產之獲益的可能性時，基本上課徵財產稅的正當性就應該消失，所以它當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免。現在關鍵就是，不管它的名義是什麼，基本上只要它有無償供公眾通行的現況，只要是不供特定人使用且具無償性，其實就已經達成地盡其利，既然它達成所謂地盡其利的概念，你再去課稅，我認為這就有違租稅公平的原則。所以我們提這個案子是希望，在這討論的過程中，我們如何來達成更細緻的規定，因此接下來我們就討論相關的部分要怎麼樣來做設定。","現在的狀況是，無償供公眾通行之道路土地，經查明屬實者，在使用期間內，地價稅或田賦全免。但其屬建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分，不予免徵。比如說，騎樓、走廊其實就是免徵，如果有蓋建築蓋得比較高，就會變成部分減徵，就有這樣的一個機制設定。我想先跟國土署來做討論，然後我待會再跟財政部做討論。如果我們現在要讓它符合一致性跟公平性的話，除了修法，因為我看到你們的書面報告提到不建議修法，如果不建議修法，要用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的問題？也就是說，開放空間或是供公眾通行的道路土地可以免徵地價稅，但是法定空地同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅，同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決？"],["吳署長欣修：法空也好、開放空間也好，就整個建築來講，其實有相對的權利、也有相對的義務。所謂的權利是因為留設了法空或開放空間，相對應會得到一些獎勵，所以就法律的對等關係來講，本來就有對等的關係存在。一般來講，這不存在額外的、所謂值得減稅的平等原則，我想站在平等原則是這樣的概念。但是在土地稅減免規則裡面也有提到，有關具有公益性的這些項目，地方政府可以就實務上去認定，比如因應一些重大活動，同意某一些土地依停車場法來設置停車場，這個部分也可以認定是具有公益性，這些都符合規則，所以我們不建議在母法去訂，而是讓地方政府依據具有實質上的公益性項目，再依據土地稅減免規則還有平均地權條例的規定個別訂定這樣的項目，讓它在實務上更容易達成。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講了兩個重點，第一個就是法定空地有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的，但是我們今天談的重點倒不是法定空地。因為空地有獎勵措施，那是一回事，是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下，但現在狀況是法定空地且有給公眾使用的狀況，要不要有另外的稅務減免？我覺得這個問題的層次是這樣。但你的第二個重點，本席非常了解，有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓他轉移？譬如你講公益性性質更明顯，而不是用母法一概為之的方式來處理。具體來講，有沒有比如法條上的建議措施，或者是行政機關願意基於改善公平性，做什麼樣的政策調整？你們有沒有具體作法或者相關規劃？"],["林司長家正：憲法法庭的解釋認為法定空地雖然沒有使用上的利益，不過還是有建築上的利益，所以在減免規則裡面是用但書來排除免稅規定。委員剛才也提到公益目的的部分，有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理，因為稅捐實務上都是由財政部來認定，我建議由賦稅署跟委員說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望第一個、內政部作為建築等等的主管機關，可以先稍微想一下，也就是如果法定空地，不管是私設道路或者是開放空間，這些概念只要符合讓公眾使用、有一定的公益性，就應該要被更公平的對待，其實就是這樣。剛剛張宏陸委員也講，比如101的開放空間可以減徵房屋稅，所以這跟到底是大是小沒有絕對關係，關鍵是空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用，有沒有符合公益性原則。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，剛剛提到像101並沒有減徵，因為大部分的法空都會依附在……"],["牛委員煦庭：我不是講法空，他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間？其實也是有，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：開放空間就更明確，開放空間一定在當時的都市計畫或細則，又或都市設計準則裡面有訂定，因為賦予這一個叫做開放空間，所以它必須供公眾通行，你才能獲得這個權利。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：所以相對在法律上他有對等……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然有相對的權利義務關係。我的意思是，不管怎麼樣，因為張宏陸委員剛剛也講，他不是用個案去看，而是公平原則的問題，所以我今天講，我們把概念放寬一點，你只要可以完成公平的原則，讓這些具有公益性使用的部分可以得到合理的待遇，也許是稅務的減徵或者是別的方式，我覺得可以花點時間討論，給你去思考。這是第一個。","剛剛司長講要請賦稅署，我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題。我比較不滿意財政部，你的報告裡面寫說，如果這樣一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億，對不對？你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的？"],["陳副署長慧綺：因為我們只是照都市計畫法臺灣省施行細則第三十二條規定，住宅區建蔽率不能超過60%，所以用40%來估算。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！所以排除可以蓋房子的建蔽率，你就是把所有的法定空地都算，對不對？"],["陳副署長慧綺：對，假設……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地，因為按照法條修正的邏輯，應該是要供公眾通行使用，實際上這個數字是多少？有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用？"],["陳副署長慧綺：這沒有辦法切割，只能用推估的方法。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["陳副署長慧綺：即使用最低的10%好了，也占了將近30億，這30億畢竟還是稅損，既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要彌補財源，到底要從什麼地方來，還要做稅式支出評估。"],["牛委員煦庭：不管怎麼樣，你總要先算清楚，因為300億跟30億還是差很多！"],["陳副署長慧綺：因為沒辦法分割，就沒有辦法區分。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有關係。今天開這個題目讓大家來討論，包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算，我認為這些都是要處理的，才能更清楚。但你不能拿概算推定稅損就是這樣，然後講不要修法，我覺得這樣跳太快！我同意你前面講的，因為這是地方稅，地方政府的意見也許蠻重要的，大家多開幾次會商量一下，本席完全接受，但我的意思是，你不能用一個很寬的估算就把人家嚇退了，變成沒有實質討論，我覺得對於提案委員來講，不太公平。"],["陳副署長慧綺：我們試著努力看看，看怎麼樣能夠統計一個更精準……"],["牛委員煦庭：稍微了解一下到底這些法空就是空地，還是真的有一部分的使用，或者是有哪些像剛剛吳署長講的，有一定公益性的一些作法？我希望政府能在這個過程中清楚的設算，我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西。基於這一些道理，大家去想法條是用修法的方式，還是修改行政命令方式、推動專案政策的方式，其實都可以，只要能夠往這裡前進一步，我想就符合公平的原則，好不好？"],["陳副署長慧綺：可以請委員讓我再多講兩句話嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["陳副署長慧綺：根據112年憲判字，其實沒有違反平等原則，因為法空本來就有建築利益，跟一些特別犧牲的私設道路供公眾通行是不一樣的，既然憲法法庭已經跟我們講沒有違反平等原則，所以它沒有特別犧牲。他只是在最後面有特別強調，可能民眾會多提供、超出應該要提供的法定空地，這個部分要去考量，這個考量在剛剛委員質詢的時候，我有跟委員報告過，之後就要由民眾來提出申請，如果能夠分割得出來，當然就可以減免，就是要民眾提出申請。但是民眾申請的話，也有別的考量在，所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣的申請。跟委員補充。"],["牛委員煦庭：即便在憲法解釋、大的方向上，本來就是可否，你可以這樣做，也可以不這樣做，對不對？都不會違背憲法的精神，對不對？我看憲法解釋的意思是這樣，對不對？就是不這樣做也沒有關係，但如果可以更細緻化去做，其實更公平，因為你剛剛也講，民眾如果有需要，可以特案來申請或減免。我今天討論的其實就是如果可以優化這樣的機制，可以讓這個事情有具體的前進，我認為也很好，好不好？最後，不要花太多時間，國土署署長還有財政部，你們大概需要多少時間來討論？"],["陳副署長慧綺：因為要問22個地方政府，可能要一點時間，因為他們的地又那麼多還要去盤點，可能要有一定的時間。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒問題。一定時間是多少？"],["陳副署長慧綺：大概要三個月。"],["牛委員煦庭：三個月，好不好？沒關係，我覺得OK。因為我覺得這茲事體大，那就三個月，請財政部做相對精準的設算。"],["陳副署長慧綺：好……稅損……"],["牛委員煦庭：第二、國土署也三個月，好不好？你有壓力嗎？"],["林司長家正：因為那個部分還是財政部，應該跟財政部一起確認。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是地政司，你們就一起確認，國土署、地政司、財政部，你們就一起確認，也許做個研商。我贊成國土署署長講的，如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考，我覺得也很好，就把這個東西設計出來，也許這個修法就有它的意義，好不好？","另外，既然都要花點時間，針對建築法，我剛剛其實看了很多內容，國土署剛剛也有說，有些地方需要跟地方政府再溝通，對不對？因為我們今天討論兩個條例，一個是平均地權條例，我們剛剛講三個月之後再說。至於建築法的部分，需要多少時間再細緻溝通？"],["吳署長欣修：至少也給我們三個月，因為有很多是罰單的問題，的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子、小案子差距太大。"],["牛委員煦庭：平均地權條例只有本席提案，所以我就決定給你三個月。可是建築法有很多委員提案，我覺得三個月好像太久了，這要不要短一點？"],["吳署長欣修：我還是建議……因為案件太多了，尤其涉及到罰款的部分，我剛剛也有提到大小案件的金額實在差距太大，所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我覺得三個月太久了，這樣子好了，我給你一個月的時間先初步的研商，一個月之後，你再來讓本席了解，因為我當召委可能要排案……"],["吳署長欣修：好，了解。"],["牛委員煦庭：我到底要不要讓它進到實質的討論，我要讓它是有效率的方式來處理。"],["吳署長欣修：沒有，平均地權條例那一個除外……"],["牛委員煦庭：那個三個月我們已經講好了，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：但建築法的部分，我希望快，因為提案委員比較多，我要尊重他們。"],["吳署長欣修：我們會把各個案子初步的研商建議再跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月之內要有初步研商建議，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們再來做後續排案節奏的參考，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委。","接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828493cba9fd48543e5b8fa27110b4cf3b3ec695a437ff13aed9862157efe858d265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:43:53 - 11:55:24","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:43:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:55:24+08:00","duration":691,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.054718750000003,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.58534375,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.66971875,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.72034375,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.77096875,"end":16.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.00659375,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.37471875,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.22659375,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.62284375,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.69409375,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.40471875,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.90096875,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.97596875,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.96659375,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.63284375,"end":101.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.32721875,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.42721875,"end":163.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.41471875000002,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.23284375,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.66971875000002,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.54721875,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.55096875,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.47846875000002,"end":215.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.16159375,"end":217.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.29221875000002,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.87846875000002,"end":220.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.31721875000002,"end":224.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.98346875000001,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.72409375,"end":237.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.34846875000002,"end":240.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.70221875000001,"end":241.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.87096875,"end":253.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.27409375000002,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.73784375000002,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.15034375,"end":262.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.31909375000004,"end":283.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.07096875,"end":304.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.45596875,"end":304.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.40096875,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.96846875,"end":342.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.02096875,"end":334.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.98596875000004,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.09284375000004,"end":366.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.07909375,"end":418.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.29471875,"end":423.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.93096875000003,"end":433.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.03034375000004,"end":465.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.47721875,"end":473.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.20159375000003,"end":497.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.23596875000004,"end":550.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.3372187500001,"end":552.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.19346875,"end":554.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.2690937500001,"end":557.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.40784375,"end":565.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.98471875,"end":574.38846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謝謝主席 那先有請司法院還有法務部 謝謝麻煩複密還有部長"},{"start":21.038,"end":43.645,"text":"好 針對剛剛張祺凱委員的造謠我要公開的說在5月19號台灣民眾黨中央組織部的臉書上面寫著集結一場苗頭不對的司法對決正式開打第二張圖卡搭配就是520禮拜二早上10點台北地檢署站出來這個是你們民眾黨自己的臉書你可能好 來我要回到我自己的議題上"},{"start":46.653,"end":73.504,"text":"在立法院這一年感覺很大的辛苦就是別人只要一直潑髒水我們要一直說道理好來謝謝你們我非常好奇主席為什麼一直在排相關議題喔從法啟公投辦公廳會到現在專題報告那既然要談死刑我們就來好好談一談第一個我想要問喔沒有廢死何來實質廢死我想問兩位就你們的法律專業我下這個標題有沒有問題"},{"start":75.936,"end":100.909,"text":"我認為既然台灣現在沒有廢死 何來所謂實質廢死法官在那個憲判八裡面主文就宣示了 就是死刑它並不違憲的是 好 我們再來往下看喔事實上在台灣從中華民國刑法立法以來一直到目前為止從來沒有一天有廢除死刑 請問委員長說的是對的嗎"},{"start":102.481,"end":118.933,"text":"是好那在113年宪判第8號判決也認定所謂的死刑是有條件核限也就是並沒有違憲而核限的條件意思就是我們要慎重因為死刑沒有try and error的空間以上的論述對不對"},{"start":119.833,"end":136.054,"text":"是如果是這個論述我們往下來看我們現在看到藍白還有意見的一致決我認為如果放在所謂憲判的主文裡面也就是說這個是憲法解釋的核心見解那憲判解釋出來我們可不可以認同它為憲法的高度"},{"start":137.552,"end":162.99,"text":"是好沒有錯以上我就說這一年在立法院很辛苦我們得一直說道理那我們就來好好說以上我要請問法務部我的這個問題非常非常簡單其實答案也都已經公佈了法務部跟您做事時的確認在113年憲判8號的判決之後部長我們在今年年初是不是仍然有簽准並且執行死刑你只要告訴我yes還是no"},{"start":163.49,"end":178.042,"text":"有在今年的1月16日有執行也就是說憲法法庭判決的結果並沒有影響到死刑的執行對不對法務部依然可以合憲的執行死刑"},{"start":178.743,"end":193.22,"text":"以法執行好 以法執行沒錯我剛說以法執行好 謝謝部長來 下一張我想要繼續請問喔再跟你做另外一個事實的確認你們在今年年初做了一件事情叫做修正死刑執行規則"},{"start":194.722,"end":216.865,"text":"而且整個看起來方向是變得更為嚴格意思就是說原本死刑有很多暫緩執行的條件跟申請但是你們讓這個暫緩的申請跟執行變得更加嚴格對不對更加的一個合理因為從109年執行死刑規則修訂之後我們各界省也是很多"},{"start":218.553,"end":234.6,"text":"辦了四次的座談就是各界的一個意見也就是說你們的修正必須跟國人交代的是我們並沒有朝向寬鬆甚至沒有朝向廢死的方向來處理這是我解讀 對嗎"},{"start":235.58,"end":261.366,"text":"是更合理的一個方式也就是沒有變得更寬鬆喔沒有變得要廢死喔對嗎沒有要廢死好我再次強調嘛因為現在有很多輿論有很多論述我認為是在導向錯誤的論述所以在公開的質詢謝謝您剛的回覆也就是我們並沒有往這裡去走對嗎這個是更合理的因為主張那個整個也配合大家的一個廣大意見是能夠在執行時期更合理"},{"start":261.866,"end":283.32,"text":"好那下一張也就是說在憲法法庭判決結束之後我們來看這個新聞仍然有地方法院做出死刑判決我再強調一次這是在憲判法庭做出判決結果之後而且這是聯合報的媒體他自己就寫了釋憲後來首判死理由曝光"},{"start":284.281,"end":303.739,"text":"也就是說我剛剛的論述跟您的回答是一致的也就是說現判後的死刑判決依然在進行而且從來沒有停止廢除死刑這件事情也就是我認為如果我們剛剛講的一切都是對的那怎麼會有現在有人在炒作所謂實質廢死您怎麼看這個事情"},{"start":305.541,"end":317.67,"text":"自從就是113年先判八字號判決出來之後呢事實上有兩件就是有馬國馬來西亞籍大女生她那個那個那個殺"},{"start":319.042,"end":341.488,"text":"那個這部分一二審都是判有罪那個二審是判有罪另外那個高雄地院那審理那惡靈那個無性的一個被告那這邊把鄰居夫妻殺死的這件也一審判死這都是在憲判八字判決之後的判決那可見那個這部分有實務上的一個兩個一個案例的一個實行的一個判決"},{"start":342.308,"end":367.203,"text":"謝謝部長說明的很清楚接下來我想請問司法院我們不要就個案來評判好不好我們我想請教司法院司法院你們認為在憲法法庭判決之後法院所做出的這個死刑判決是合理的嗎我不是說個案這樣判而是說我們本來就可以繼續做出死刑判決對不對是就是在那個憲判八底下所要求的這一些不管是程序或是實體的那個檢驗上面好"},{"start":367.643,"end":392.857,"text":"所以兩位講的都非常非常清楚我們來看下一個這個是上一頁我剛剛提出來那個案件聯合報報導這個新聞案件高雄地院的判決我還有附上判決字號大家有興趣可以自己去查在這個判決當中就明確的記載了憲法法庭判決的內容甚至他提到憲法法庭判決的見解當中認定死刑是核限的但是因為相關資料太多我就不再贅述我想要繼續請教兩位"},{"start":394.278,"end":422.674,"text":"既然憲法法庭判決認定死刑是核限的而在憲法法庭判決過後 如同我們剛剛對過的資料法院可以繼續判處死刑而法務部依然可以簽准死刑還有相關的死刑規則 我們也都去調整了那怎麼會有繼續這樣的言論 叫做實質廢死我真的覺得很莫名其妙那我認為 扯出這樣的言論真的是法盲 理盲 邏輯盲 怎麼說我不要到下一頁 我想要問"},{"start":424.028,"end":432.58,"text":"之前藍白修法修了憲法訴訟法加高了門檻讓大法官人數不足那我可不可以說藍白是實質癱瘓憲法法庭"},{"start":436.052,"end":463.893,"text":"好你們微笑沒關係這是我個人的見解我認為如果我們今天在立法院要理性認真的討論這個事情那我是不是也可以這樣說當然這是我的見解我就不讓你們回答我只是要說這件事情我們確實需要跟國人有更多的溝通跟討論好下一張那死刑一字決不是重大政策可是藍白繼續裝睡覺不行甚至在禮拜二的程序委員會當中我們看到藍白提出行政訴訟來"},{"start":465.58,"end":483.813,"text":"在過去我們針對這個案子其實民進黨委員都努力的論述可是我們一直提醒這個案子有問題這個案子有問題那我剛剛已經提醒了公投出來的結果它是法律未接可是憲判法庭的判決是憲法未接"},{"start":484.674,"end":511.466,"text":"就一個國中生的公民課上完以後他應該都會知道憲法跟法律未接是截然不同絕對是憲法的效力高於法律的效力對嗎我認為這是一般國中生都會知道的事情可是如果我們來看過往在台灣曾經實行過的公投還有44748號解釋關於同婚還有後續的很多人提出的反同公投其實已經示範過一次"},{"start":513.067,"end":541.46,"text":"我認為藍白是忘記或者是不敢想起來我其實還是不知道但我們真的認為他們不聽就是不聽創造出非常多錯假的訊息這件事情我認為非常非常的遺憾我也想要跟兩位討論我認為是不是要廢除死刑可以被認定是重大政策可是所謂的死刑以治絕事實上已經涉及到比較技術性比較細節的項目它不會是所謂重大性政策"},{"start":541.96,"end":557.389,"text":"也就是公投如果我們要談的是這個事情又回到創製或者是覆決我都認為是有問題的我想要快速跟兩位請教你們怎麼看好啦我不要為難你們我自己往下說我剛已經說了下一張"},{"start":558.49,"end":573.523,"text":"在禮拜二程序委員會我們看到這個提案了我認為藍白相關提案被中選會打臉我認為已經很丟臉了可是我想要問更荒謬的是現在還要提起行政訴訟我自己也是立法院的議員"},{"start":575.184,"end":603.838,"text":"對於國人來說不管藍白綠我們都是立法委員假設這個行政訴訟真的告下去了然後我們也輸了我們會怎麼丟自己立法院的臉我其實現在還在想像那個可怕的境況喔我非常非常的擔心好 下一張死刑這件事情喔我在上一次質詢的時候或者是之前在討論的時候我就說慎重非常的重要人命關天這件事情非常的重要"},{"start":606.045,"end":624.335,"text":"藍白在很多方面我都已經不知道過去做十幾年親子教育的我要怎麼去教家長讓家長去教小孩今天是六四在中國今天沒有六四今天叫做五月三十五號沒有六四我再說一次今天在中國不會有六四是五月三十五號"},{"start":625.396,"end":651.493,"text":"在台灣 有一群人不敢面對的輕蔑人命 罔顧人命不顧正義 不顧公正很多事情到現在 依然沒有說清楚 講明白也沒有人對相關事情道歉在台灣就是白色恐怖 就是戒嚴很多人的生命就此犧牲相關的協商會議當中 我還記得有一次喔我想要談這個事情 藍白就站起來走人了我猜想他們不敢想起來 不敢面對"},{"start":652.794,"end":673.48,"text":"而在今天談死性疑似覺這件事情上我想要最後用這張投影片要提醒大家人命關天這件事情非常非常的重要不管你站在哪一方我認為每一個人的性命都一樣的重要而慎重這件事情絕對是非常非常重要再加上兩位剛剛給我的回答非常的清楚我們並沒有往那個路上前去我們"},{"start":674.48,"end":688.786,"text":"在憲法判決之後相關的案例還是有判處死刑不僅可以簽准可以執行我想台灣這件事情我們應該要繼續合理的討論以上好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時44分）謝謝主席，先有請司法院及法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩副秘還有部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：針對剛剛張啓楷委員的造謠，我要公開地說，在5月19號台灣民眾黨中央組織部的臉書上面寫著：集結令！一場苗頭不對的司法對決，正式開打！第二張圖卡上搭配的文字就是「520(二)早上10：00台北地檢署站出來！」這個是你們民眾黨自己的臉書，你可能……","我要回到我自己的議題上。在立法院這一年感覺很大的辛苦就是別人只要一直潑髒水，我們要一直說道理。謝謝你們，我非常好奇主席為什麼一直在排相關的議題，從發起公投、辦公聽會到現在專題報告，既然要談死刑，我們就來好好談一談。","第一個，我想要問的是，沒有廢死，何來實質廢死？我想問兩位，就你們的法律專業，我下的這個標題有沒有問題？我認為既然臺灣現在沒有廢死，何來所謂實質廢死！"],["王副秘書長梅英：大法官在憲判字第8號判決主文就宣示了死刑並不違憲。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們再來往下看。事實上，在臺灣，從中華民國刑法立法以來，一直到目前為止，從來沒有一天有廢除死刑，請問我以上說的是對的嗎？是？113年憲判字第8號判決也認定所謂的死刑是有條件合憲，也就是並沒有違憲，而合憲的條件，意思就是我們要慎重，因為死刑沒有try and error的空間，以上的論述對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果是這個論述，我們現在看到藍白還有意見的一致決，我認為如果放在憲判的主文裡面，也就是說，這個是憲法解釋的核心見解。憲判解釋出來，我們可不可以認同它為憲法的高度？好，沒有錯。","這一年在立法院很辛苦，我們得一直說道理，我們就來好好說。以下我要請問法務部，我的問題非常非常簡單，其實答案也都已經公布了。我跟法務部做事實確認，在113年憲判字第8號判決之後，部長，我們在今年年初是不是仍然有簽准並且執行死刑？你只要告訴我Yes還是No。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，在今年1月16日有執行。"],["陳委員培瑜：也就是說，憲法法庭判決的結果，並沒有影響到死刑的執行，法務部依然可以合憲的執行死刑，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依法執行。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，我剛剛說依法執行，謝謝部長。","我想要再跟你做另外一個事實確認，你們在今年年初做了一件事情，叫做修正死刑執行規則，而且看起來整個方向是變得更嚴格，意思就是說，原本死刑有很多暫緩執行的條件跟聲請，但是你們讓暫緩聲請跟執行變得更嚴格，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：變更加合理，因為從109年執行死刑規則修訂之後，各界聲音很多，我們辦了4次座談跟各界的意見來對話。"],["陳委員培瑜：必須跟國人交代的是，你們的修正並沒有朝向寬鬆，甚至沒有朝向廢死的方向處理，這是我的解讀，對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這是更合理的方式。"],["陳委員培瑜：也就是沒有變得更寬鬆，沒有變得要廢死，對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有要廢死。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我再次強調，因為現在有很多輿論跟論述，我認為是在導向錯誤的論述，所以公開質詢，也謝謝您剛剛的回復，我們並沒有往這個方向走，對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是更合理，因為遵照相關法令也配合大家的想法廣納意見，能在執行死刑上更合理。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們來看這個新聞，在憲法法庭判決結束之後，仍然有地方法院做出死刑判決。我再強調一次，這是在憲判法庭作出判決結果之後，而且這是聯合報的媒體寫了「釋憲後首判死理由曝光」，我剛剛的論述跟您的回答是一致的，也就是說，憲判後的死刑判決依然在進行，而且從來沒有停止。有關廢除死刑這件事情，如果我們剛剛講的一切都是對的，怎麼會現在有人在炒作所謂實質廢死，您怎麼看這個事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：自從113年憲判字第8號判決出來之後，事實上有兩件，包含勒殺馬來西亞籍女生，二審是判有罪；另外高雄地院審理惡鄰吳姓被告，他把鄰居夫妻殺死，這件一審也判死，這都是在憲判字第8號判決之後的判決，可見這部分有實務上兩個死刑判決的案例。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長說明的很清楚。接下來我想請問司法院，我們不要就個案來評判。請問司法院，你們認為在憲法法庭判決之後，法院所作出的死刑判決是合理的嗎？我不是說個案這樣判，而是我們本來就可以繼續作出死刑判決，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，在憲判字第8號下所要求的，不管是程序或是實體的檢驗上面。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，兩位講得都非常非常清楚。我們來看下一頁，這是我剛剛提出來的聯合報報導新聞案件，高雄地院的判決，我還有附上判決字號，大家有興趣可以自己去查，在這個判決當中，就明確地記載了憲法法庭判決的內容，甚至他提到憲法法庭判決的見解當中，認定死刑是合憲的，但是因為相關資料太多，我就不再贅述。","我想要請教兩位，既然憲法法庭判決認定死刑是合憲的，而在憲法法庭判決過後，如同我們剛剛對過的資料，法院可以繼續判處死刑，而法務部依然可以簽准死刑，還有我們也都去調整了相關的死刑規則，怎麼會繼續有實質廢死這樣的言論？我真的覺得很莫名其妙，我認為扯出這樣的言論，真的是法盲、理盲、邏輯盲，怎麼說？我想問，之前藍白修法，修了憲法訴訟法，加高了門檻，讓大法官人數不足，我可不可以說藍白是實質癱瘓憲法法庭？好，你們微笑沒關係，這是我個人的見解。我認為，如果我們今天在立法院要理性認真的討論這個事情，我是不是也可以這樣說？當然這是我的見解，我就不讓你們回答，我只是說這件事情，我們確實需要跟國人有更多的溝通跟討論。","死刑一致決不是重大政策，可是藍白繼續裝睡叫不醒，甚至在禮拜二的程序委員會當中，我們看到藍白提出行政訴訟。過去我們針對這個案子，其實民進黨委員都努力地論述，我們一直提醒這個案子有問題，我剛剛已經提醒了，公投出來的結果，它是法律位階，可是憲判法庭的判決是憲法位階。一個國中生的公民課上完以後，他應該都會知道憲法跟法律位階是截然不同，絕對是憲法的效力高於法律的效力，對嗎？我認為這是一般國中生都會知道的事情，可是如果我們來看臺灣在過往曾經實行過的公投，還有釋字第748號關於同婚的解釋，還有後續很多人提出的反同公投，其實已經示範過一次，我認為藍白是忘記了，或是不敢想起來，我不知道，但我們真的認為他們不聽就是不聽，創造出非常多錯、假的訊息，這件事情我認為非常非常的遺憾。","我想跟兩位討論，我認為是不是要廢除死刑，可以被認定是重大政策，可是所謂的死刑一致決，事實上已經涉及到比較技術性、比較細節的項目，它不會是所謂重大性政策，也就是公投如果我們要談的是這個事情，又回到創制或是複決，我認為都是有問題的。我想要快速跟兩位請教，你們怎麼看？好啦，我不要為難你們，我自己往下說，我剛剛已經說了，在禮拜二的程序委員會，我們看到這個提案，藍白相關提案被中選會打臉，我認為已經很丟臉了，可是更荒謬的是，現在還要提起行政訴訟，我自己也是立法院的一員，對於國人來說，不管藍、白、綠，我們都是立法委員，假設這個行政訴訟真的告下去了，然後我們也輸了，我們會怎麼丟自己立法院的臉？我其實現在還在想像那個可怕的境況，我非常非常擔心。","死刑這件事情，我上一次質詢的時候，或是之前在討論的時候，我就說慎重非常重要，人命關天這件事情非常重要，藍白很多荒謬事蹟，我都已經不知道過去做了十幾年親子教育的我，要怎麼去教家長，讓家長去教小孩。今天是六四，在中國今天沒有六四，今天叫做5月35號，沒有六四。我再說一次，今天在中國不會有六四，是5月35號，在臺灣有一群不敢面對的人，輕蔑人命、罔顧人命，不顧正義、不顧公正，很多事情到現在依然沒有說清楚、講明白，也沒有人對相關事情道歉，在臺灣就是白色恐怖，就是戒嚴，很多人的生命就此犧牲。相關的協商會議當中，我還記得有一次，我想要談這個事情，藍白就站起來走人了，我猜他們不敢想起來，不敢面對，今天談死刑一致決這件事，我想最後用這張投影片提醒大家，人命關天這件事情非常非常重要，不管你站在哪一方，我認為每一個人的性命都一樣重要，而慎重這件事絕對非常非常重要，再加上兩位剛剛給我的回答非常清楚，我們並沒有往那個路上前去，我們在憲法判決之後，相關案例還是有判處死刑，不僅可以簽准、可以執行，在臺灣這件事情，我們應該要繼續合理討論，以上。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982824f449a647f2fcc769516374867620ceec695a437ff13aed777ad80cf16e02b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:38:14 - 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退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分 除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外"},{"start":217.182,"end":238.519,"text":"那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法"},{"start":240.922,"end":260.972,"text":"謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度"},{"start":262.853,"end":280.846,"text":"但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他"},{"start":282.527,"end":302.258,"text":"其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子"},{"start":302.418,"end":329.556,"text":"好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個"},{"start":330.937,"end":359.65,"text":"整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要估計還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議"},{"start":360.53,"end":379.545,"text":"其實我們從過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就是2016年當中又增加了這個1700就變成43900"},{"start":384.088,"end":403.047,"text":"可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年定的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實"},{"start":404.348,"end":426.493,"text":"這幾年來或者過20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最薄級距的4萬24有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距"},{"start":427.333,"end":449.353,"text":"那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個集聚裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個集聚更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是"},{"start":450.114,"end":459.366,"text":"基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的"},{"start":461.175,"end":484.352,"text":"那這些在這個是從這個集聚上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最最最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個"},{"start":485.012,"end":501.515,"text":"那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它"},{"start":502.436,"end":520.777,"text":"當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪津貼薪資補助也會有改善的機會"},{"start":521.798,"end":538.319,"text":"所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說"},{"start":539.54,"end":563.748,"text":"如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個"},{"start":566.229,"end":593.066,"text":"相對這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會加增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出"},{"start":593.826,"end":619.925,"text":"那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限"},{"start":620.906,"end":637.748,"text":"來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估"},{"start":639.089,"end":665.998,"text":"那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法"},{"start":668.059,"end":691.367,"text":"我要說非常謝謝王委員其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供這個影響評估的部分"},{"start":691.927,"end":721.167,"text":"第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保集聚上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題"},{"start":722.167,"end":740.921,"text":"所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長處事來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃"},{"start":743.303,"end":769.311,"text":"部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢"},{"start":770.191,"end":792.823,"text":"退休以後還可以支配所以是我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面"},{"start":794.364,"end":818.246,"text":"在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能"},{"start":819.206,"end":841.444,"text":"這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得是非常好而且它真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好 那就麻煩部長好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝王委員我們醫生"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時38分）好，謝謝主席，我們就麻煩洪部長，多謝啦，讓你排這麼困難的題目。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。謝謝部長今天提供的專題報告，內容真的非常豐富，這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難，也許對召委來講沒有到困難的程度，不過因為相對來講，勞工，尤其是對勞保財務穩健改善的部分，真的是面臨非常大的挑戰。今天就三個主題來跟部長討論：一個就是勞保財務改善機制；另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性；第三個就是勞保、勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論。","我們也了解勞保整體財務要穩健的改善，事實上要考量的事情會非常非常的多，所以一直以來，歷任部長對這個議題都會採用比較穩健的做法。在上個會期預算會期中，我也麻煩勞動部針對勞保財務的改善提出一些因應對策，希望能夠有更合理的方式，讓整體勞工朋友很有信心的知道，政府其實對於勞工，尤其在退休以後的財務部分，可以讓他們得到一個最大的心理安定感。我們也知道，如果透過一些改革，包括提高保費，或者是降低給付，或者是延長投保薪資採計期間等改革方案，通常會有很多很多要同時思考的部分。","目前整個政府的方向比較傾向於，第一個，不降低給付；第二個就是不調整保費，這是兩個大前提，在這兩個大前提之下，對於整體的處理模式就會有不同的思考方法。針對勞保財務的因應對策，如果在剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話，可能就會有需要三個部分：第一個，就好像前任何部長所提到的，政府撥補也是改革的方案之一，到目前洪部長也有同感；第二個是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場，去年我們也修法把65歲的年齡再往後延退；第三個就是要強化查核及管理機制，這就包括整個勞保基金投資的績效，如何能夠讓它可以更有效率或者是有效果；另外就是催收保費，可能我們可以定期的透過更好的方式來催收保費；再來就是在給付的時候，退休的時候這些給付的審查，這都是可以當作一個因應對策。","在政府撥補的部分，目前除了每年1,000億的政府撥補以外，其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把最終支付責任入法？另外，有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐，或者是公益彩券等等的方式讓勞保財務可以更穩健？這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員的建議。在勞保財務的維持上，其實挑戰是很大的，各方有各種的意見，包括今天一直討論到的政府最終支付責任入法，我們都是持開放的態度，但是我還是要強調，不管有沒有入法，我想政府都是會負最終責任的，至於其他財源的開源，這當然會涉及到比方說委員有提到特定的一些稅捐、公彩或者是其他部分，因為它現在可能也是其他運用的財源，不過，對於有利於增加基金收入的一些建議，我想我都會持正面的態度來做研議，當然這部分我們很願意跟委員做更多的討論，看還有沒有更多的可能性。"],["王委員正旭：好，那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看，就是調整勞（就）保投保薪資上限的可能性。關於這部分，依照上一次預算會期的提案，如果我們把投保薪資上限往上提升會帶來哪些影響？也期待透過這個調整可以讓我們整個勞保制度能夠更為完整，在保費、保險這一部分，那個時候部裡面的回應是說，最主要的顧慮還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付支出，也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮，所以還是在研議當中，並沒有想要做這方面的改善。不過，我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們會有這樣的提議。","其實從過去這二十年來就可以理解，經過1998年把勞保最高投保薪資級距訂到4萬2,000元，到了8年後，即2006年6月又增加了1,900，變成4萬3,900，可是2016年到目前為止，好像也將近十年了，有沒有機會把當初在2016年訂的4萬5,800再往上提高？為什麼我們會想要從這邊來討論？我們可以看得出來，在最高投保級距的人數部分，其實這幾年來或者二十年來，這個百分比已經改變非常多，在2006年，投保到最高級距的4萬2,000只有18%，十年以後變成25%，現在已經到33%。意思就是說，從這個勞動人口來看的話，有33%的人已經投保到最高投保級距，似乎就等於太多太多人擠在這個級距裡面，未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話，如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個級距更合理的分布，這是我們非常期待的，因為我們看到每人每月的薪資，當然這是個平均值，在使用上要非常的小心，可是基本上他已經5萬5,000了，我們用4萬5,000來當作最高級距，似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分，這是我們可以從這個數據上看得到的。","以上是從級距上來看，如果就給付項目來看的話，大部分的勞保給付，年金還是占了90%，就是最大宗的支出，可是還有其他不同的給付，包括死亡給付，剛剛麥委員也提到，勞工如果出問題的話，死亡給付的這個……這些給付基本上都是以最高級距來做試算的基礎。","另外，就保給付的部分包括失業給付等等，假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看，如果我們不去調整它，當然這些影響是會很明顯，如果我們試著以少子化來看的話，我們能夠把最高級距提升的時候，他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會，對於育嬰留職停薪津貼、薪資補助也會有改善的機會。所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候，針對某一些特殊需求，其實是可以看到它的效果。當然整體來看，我們還是要適度地去評估各方面帶來的影響，所以我們試著去分析它的利弊，專家學者也告訴我們，如果我們要把投保薪資上限做調整的話，它的好處或者考量就是，基本上它是一個溫和提高保費收入的方式，也可以回應這個給付標準的需求，以及回應薪資跟最低工資持續的調漲，還有，具體上就調整時間來看的話，事實上是可以有調整投保上限這個機會存在，當然也會造成某些困擾或者疑慮，包括給付金額會增加，目前在沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下，不宜加重財務的負擔，當然這個過程裡面也會增加勞工、資方（雇方）還有政府三方的保費支出。","另外，這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面？我們也了解要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難，不過，我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式，看能不能夠在這個前提之下，就是在提高投保上限的這個機制之下，還有哪些配套措施可以來進行？包括提高投保上限來搭配其他的方案，包括採用累退方式來降低高薪者的給付、對勞保財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估，以及對於勞資政三方保費支出的影響評估。另外，要建立勞（就）保投保薪資級距上限的調整機制。剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在最高薪資這個級距裡面，未來看有沒有機會到了一定百分比的時候，我們就試著去調整這些機制，然後去看這個影響會是如何，不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議，或者是目前有什麼想法？"],["洪部長申翰：我要非常謝謝王委員，包括剛才做的利弊分析，和最後提出來的建議，其實我們都覺得很具建設性，也幫助我們很多，現在在螢幕上面的第二項跟第三項這些相關的影響評估，我想我們保險司應該可以來提供這些影響評估的部分，而第一項跟第四項，我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討，也就是說，針對勞保級距上限的問題，最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔，因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰，其實最主要的考量點，坦白說就是這件事情，但這件事情也不是一個那麼好克服的問題，所以我們是在這個前提之下，有沒有可能有各種思考的作法？我想我們是願意再去做一些評估跟思考。"],["王委員正旭：好啊！那就麻煩部長持續來關心這個部分，這本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛。","最後，我再請部長、部裡面也試著去掌握看看，因為我們知道，大家在工作的期間，對於如何去試算勞工退休金的部分不會太在意，可是當你越接近退休的時候，就會開始想要去瞭解自己退休以後將來會有多少錢可以支配？所以我們就會有兩個制度，或者是兩個算法，那這邊看到的是部裡面提供兩套不同的系統，讓民眾和勞工朋友知道將來退休的時候，會有哪一些可以試算的基礎。我們可以看的是部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面，在勞工朋友有這個需求的時候可以去應用，可是它分屬在不同的兩個系統，我們可以看到左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統，部裡是不是有機會去整合，以勞工為準整合勞保年金給付跟勞退新制試算的網頁可這樣的話除了方便性很高外，將來大家應用上也會更方便。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒。其實這個建議我覺得是非常好，而且應該會對勞工朋友在試算的時候提供很大的方便性，所以我認為可以配合來辦理。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長，謝謝王委員。","我們醫生健保是付到18萬，最高現在十八萬多，像王正旭應該是繳18萬的，18萬現在5.21%就是九千多塊，那勞保這邊才4萬5,800，我們也交十幾萬可以嗎？我退休可以領更多錢。你一直搖頭。我們也覺得真的很不公平，健保要繳這麼高。","好，接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828bb9967dddac810615e54a9d835821946ec695a437ff13aed2d6ae07beb6466455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:41:30 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這是三減後的仍然要增加68.5億約百分之七點多就是說有刪掉了大概30億左右但是中央政府對於新北市的補助人比去年還多是"},{"start":192.639,"end":217.474,"text":"那我看了一下你們所提供的資料就六都來講新北成長7.5%台北成長8.9%桃園8.2%台中5.8%台南3.8%高雄14.1%對於六都的補助都比去年還要多那這是在扣掉這個一般性的補助款之後這個數字有錯嗎沒有錯"},{"start":219.557,"end":235.911,"text":"所以換言之就算是有按照立法院在野黨的決議扣掉了這個一般性的補助館之後我們中央政府對於至少直轄市我新北市的補助都比去年都還要多是"},{"start":237.026,"end":255.391,"text":"都比去年都還要多那現在有地方政府還在講啊就是說如果你扣掉他們的一般性補助款他們可能有一些基本的教育啦社會福利啦這些政策這些設施都沒辦法做那請問一下會有這些影響嗎"},{"start":256.687,"end":286.213,"text":"事實上我們要刪減之前我們都會盤算各縣市政府他大概他的一個稅計剩餘或者是說他舉債的一個空間那事實上我們刪減會影響的是稅入啦所以稅入的部分呢你如果說可以遵檢一些相關的一個支出然後到年底的時候也可以由自己的累積剩餘來去做填補或者是說由舉債來做舉債那換言之我再問一下主席長就是說我們刪減部分是屬於他對他們的稅入的部分"},{"start":286.773,"end":311.333,"text":"是那他們如果講那些不管是教育啦社福啦這些支出是屬於稅數的部分對 照案執行的部分他如果是照案執行會有一些調度上的一個問題那所以他們也可以不要去刪這一些項目嗎是 沒有刪 稅數沒有刪啦對啊 那所以今天如果按照他們的邏輯是他們要去刪那些項目時不是我們叫他們去刪那些項目的啊是"},{"start":312.008,"end":331.045,"text":"所以我聽到很多的直轄市或是縣市的代表有上來講他說要一般性補助款刪掉之後那他們一些社福教育啊都會受到影響那不是中央政府叫他們去刪的是他們這些科目裡面他們要去做調整他們去刪了這些科目是不是"},{"start":332.026,"end":351.264,"text":"所以這個部分 稅出的部分我們是沒有動 它影響的是稅入那稅出的部分呢就是可能他可能要用以前年度的稅基剩餘來做一個調整或者是說他要刪減一些他不必要的支出來做調整 是這樣就是說他們稅出有很多的項目 他們也可以去"},{"start":352.545,"end":369.353,"text":"刪除一些我們認為是非必要性的支出就不用去動到比如說他們講的教育啊社會福利的支出嘛對不對所以如果他們今天這樣子做的話那我覺得這些地方政府對不起這些縣市民啊"},{"start":370.493,"end":390.034,"text":"為什麼要去刪掉這些教育、社會的支出?更何況中央對於地方的補助,我剛才講了,至少就我新北市來講是增加的這沒有問題吧?那我也看到有一份公文,這其實我自己去年也收到類似的公文就是說我們有爭取一些地方性的補助"},{"start":391.836,"end":409.493,"text":"但是呢我都看到那個公文公文它上面有寫說上開的補助呢如今立法院審議結果有所刪減的時候將一起審議結果配合調整那這個是除了是我們自己所爭取的這些地方性的預算之外你們在去年的8月30號"},{"start":410.914,"end":428.433,"text":"也發了一個文應該是給全國的縣市政府就是說一般性的補助款呢這個編列還有執行的應注意事項也特別的提到就是說如果立法院審議結果有所刪減按照其審議結果配合調整嘛這是去年8月30號就給地方政府的文對不對"},{"start":429.614,"end":445.786,"text":"所以理論上他們都知道有可能因為中央政府總預算受到影響的時候比如說今年中央政府總預算被砍了2076億所以我們對於地方的這個一般性的補助款就會有影響是不是"},{"start":446.787,"end":464.924,"text":"因為如果說是可能有影響或者是說某部分的縣市他執行有困難那這個部分我們都會全力來一個協助他把他這個困難來解決是這樣那所以你有先提醒這個縣市政府是有可能8月30都有提醒的對因為我們"},{"start":466.205,"end":491.3,"text":"預算今年的預算是1月21通過的所以你們在去年8月底那這個是例行性的發文還是說特別去年有發這個文例行性都有發文那就表示說這個因為一般性的補助款有可能因為總預算的結果會受到調整就對了是因為中央政府必須要橫走自己的財力去做卓與補助而不是全部要補助是這樣"},{"start":491.84,"end":514.922,"text":"好 那請教一下 那所以今天在野黨的這個決議 它說我們違法 請問一下有違法嗎是 依照規定我們這個部分調解沒有違反相關的一個法令他們說要按照新的財化法 新的財化法已經通過啦對於這個一般性的補助款啊 這個不能這個低 去年的這個補助啊"},{"start":516.491,"end":530.488,"text":"對所以因為我們是114年度的時候他已經公布了3月21然後後來新財化法有通過新財化法通過的部分他是上年度所以我們是以115年度籌編的來算他的上年度是114年度的一個那個"},{"start":533.652,"end":547.27,"text":"所以說這個財化法通過在後總預算通過在前那如果說要適用的話也是明年115年度的事情那所以現在這一個一般性的補助款3減了636億是合於法律規定就對了"},{"start":551.215,"end":566.425,"text":"好 那請問一下那當然啦 大家還是不希望說預算有刪掉這麼多我們也不希望說中央政府總預算被刪掉這麼多那有任何的補救方法嗎我聽這個院長還有事講說可以利用追加預算的方式來做處理"},{"start":567.185,"end":582.424,"text":"是 如果要最佳第一個必須符合最佳的一個相關的法令的規定第二個也必須要立法院這邊能夠支持所以我們也懇請立法院能夠支持那我們就可以把這個部分來做一個調整"},{"start":583.405,"end":599.255,"text":"那可是就時間上來講現在已經是六月份了我們會盡量來趕如果說因為這個主動權是在行政院也不是在立法院那如果因為這樣子的話那會在這個會期提出來嗎"},{"start":599.895,"end":618.838,"text":"我們這個如果說各單位各縣市的建議那我們會把它拿回去然後跟院長來一個做一個討論然後也跟院長來做建議希望要這樣做調整然後讓各縣市都能夠得到一個反檢那所以這個會期有機會提出來就對了我們盡力盡力齁好謝謝主席長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時40分）謝謝召委。我們請主計長。"],["主席：好，主計長請。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：請問一下，在野黨有議員說：刪減總預算是砍一些吃吃喝喝的錢。請問主計長，這砍預算是砍掉吃吃喝喝的錢嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要砍的部分，因為是1,439億那裡面有1,000億，就是撥補台電預算，其他項目就是大陸地區旅費砍了80%，國外旅費和出國教育訓練砍了60%，還有媒體和政策業務宣導費砍60%，還有一個特別費刪減60%，部分機關有的是全部刪除，像行政院、像法務部的特別費全部刪除。"],["李委員坤城：所以在野黨的立委講這次砍掉總預算，是砍掉吃吃喝喝的錢，這公平嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，這都是一般行政作業的費用，砍除以後對於一個行政事務的推動，是有它的困難，有一些現在連電費都付不出來，所以它現在都是用借的或欠債的方式來執行，在臺東，甚至於執行長還拿自己的房子去墊、去租借、去借錢，來做執行的費用，所以這個部分，我們還是希望能夠透過最佳的方式來把它彌平。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為這次在野黨砍了預算，其中有636億是屬於要行政機關自己去刪減的部分。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：臺北市長蔣萬安就講，他說：要訴願，要連本帶利討回來。我聽不懂這什麼意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我也不清楚。"],["李委員坤城：什麼叫做連本帶利討回來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他可能說遲延要加利息啦！"],["李委員坤城：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：遲延撥款要加計利息。"],["李委員坤城：遲延撥款要加利息。我看了一下你們所提供的資料，這包含我自己新北市在內，今年度中央政府對於新北市的統籌分配款跟一般性補助款，今年度是983億，去（113）年度是914億，換言之，我們今年對於新北市的補助比去年多了69億，這個數字有沒有錯？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，是正確的。"],["李委員坤城：就是說，中央政府對於新北市的補助（含統籌分配款、一般性補助款）加起來比去年多了69億，成長7.5%，這有沒有問題？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，刪減後仍然增加68.5億，約百分之七點多。"],["李委員坤城：就是說刪掉了大概30億左右，但是中央政府對於新北市的補助仍比去年還多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：我看了一下你們所提供的資料，就六都來講，新北成長7.5%、臺北成長8.9%、桃園8.2%、臺中5.8%、臺南3.8%、高雄14.1%，對於六都的補助都比去年還要多，這是在扣掉一般性補助款之後，這個數字有錯嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：所以換言之，就算是有按照立法院在野黨的決議，扣掉一般性補助款之後，中央政府至少對於直轄市，我新北市的補助都比去年都還要多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：好啦，那現在有地方政府還在講，如果你扣掉他們的一般性補助款，可能有一些基本的教育、社會福利，他們這些政策、這些設施都沒辦法做，請問會有這些影響嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，我們要刪減之前都會盤算各縣市政府大概的歲計賸餘，或者是舉債的空間，事實上，我們刪減會影響的是歲入，所以歲入的部分，如果可以撙節一些相關的支出，到年底的時候也可以由自己的累計賸餘去做填補，或者是有舉債，來做舉債。"],["李委員坤城：我再問一下主計長，換言之，我們刪減部分是屬於他們歲入的部分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：他們如果講那些，不管是教育、社福的支出，是屬於歲出的部分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，如果是照案執行，會有一些調度上的問題……"],["李委員坤城：所以他們也可以不用去刪這一些項目？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，沒有刪，歲出沒有刪啦！影響是歲入。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以今天如果按照他們的邏輯，是他們去刪那些項目，不是我們叫他們去刪那些項目的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以我聽到很多直轄市或縣市的代表有上來講，他說：一般性補助款刪掉之後，他們一些社福、教育都受到影響。那不是中央政府叫他們去刪的，是這些科目裡面他們要去做調整，他們去刪了這些科目，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以歲出的部分，我們是沒有動，它影響的是歲入，那歲入的部分，可能要用以前年度的歲計賸餘來做一個調整，或者是它要刪減一些不必要的支出來做調整。"],["李委員坤城：對，就是他們歲出有很多項目，他們也可以去刪除一些我們認為是非必要性的支出。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是緊急的。"],["李委員坤城：就不用去動到……比如他們講的教育、社會福利的支出嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以如果他們今天這樣子做的話，我覺得這些地方政府對不起這些縣市民，為什麼要去刪掉這一些教育、社福的支出？更何況中央對於地方的補助，我剛剛才講至少就我新北市是增加的，這沒有問題吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我也看到有一份公文，其實我自己去年也收到類似的公文，就是說我們有爭取一些地方性的補助，但是我都看到公文上面有說：上開的補助，如經立法院審議結果有所刪減的時候，將依其審議結果配合調整，除了我們自己所爭取的地方性的預算之外，你們在去年8月30號也發了一個文，應該是給全國縣市政府，就是一般性補助款的編列還有執行的應注意事項，也特別提到如果立法院審議結果有所刪減，按照其審議結果配合調整，這是去年8月30號就給地方政府的文了，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以理論上他們都知道，有可能因為中央政府總預算受到影響的時候，比如今年中央政府總預算被砍了2,076億，所以我們對於地方的一般性補助款就會有影響，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為如果是砍了有影響，或者是某部分的縣市政府在執行有困難，這個部分我們都會全力來協助它，把這個困難解決。"],["李委員坤城：所以你有先提醒縣市政府有可能……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，8月30日都有提醒了。"],["李委員坤城：對，因為我們今年的預算是1月20日通過的，所以你們在去年8月底。這個是例行性的發文，還是去年特別發的文？"],["陳主計長淑姿：例行性都有發文。"],["李委員坤城：那就表示一般性補助款有可能因為總預算的結果，會受到調整就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為中央政府必須要衡酌自己的財力去做酌予補助，而不是全部要補助。"],["李委員坤城：那請教一下，所以今天在野黨的這一個決議，它說我們違法，請問有違法嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：依照規定我們這個部分調減沒有違反相關的法令。"],["李委員坤城：他們說要按照新的財劃法，新財劃法已經通過，對於一般性的補助款不能低於去年的補助。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們是114年度3月21已經公布，後來新財劃法也通過，新財劃法通過的部分是上年度，所以我們是以115年度籌編的來算，它的上年度是114年度的一個……"],["李委員坤城：所以財劃法通過在後，總預算通過在前。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是、是。"],["李委員坤城：如果說要適用的話，也是明（115）年度的事情。"],["陳主計長淑姿：115年適用。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在一般性的補助款刪減了636億，是合於法律規定就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，請問一下，大家當然還是不希望預算被刪掉這麼多，我們也不希望中央政府總預算被刪掉這麼多，有任何的補救方法嗎？我聽院長講說可以利用追加預算的方式來處理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，如果要追加，第一個必須符合追加的相關法令規定，第二個也必須要立法院能夠支持，所以我們也懇請立法院能夠支持，我們就可以把這個部分來做一個調整。"],["李委員坤城：可是就時間上來講，現在已經是6月份。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會儘量來趕。"],["李委員坤城：因為這個主動權是在行政院，也不是在立法院，如果因為這樣子的話，會在這個會期提出來嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：各單位、各縣市的建議，我們會拿回去跟院長討論，也跟院長建議，希望要這樣做調整，能夠讓各縣市得到緩解。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個會期有機會提出來就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們盡力。"],["李委員坤城：盡力，好，謝謝主計長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請郭國文委員質詢，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982819dc21e146d5010fb8fa27110b4cf3b3ec695a437ff13aed1356525e4f663e885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:34:58 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第二個他那天去幫柯文哲講了不少話啊包括看電光底的時候他直接講啊 那個呈現的他說柯文哲 柯市長不是一個會亂搞的人啊我們很多民眾的人不只沒有攻擊他 還讚美他啊幫柯文哲有講公道話啊 幫柯文哲清白啊吳思瑤不要再造謠了吳思瑤剛才還造謠"},{"start":102.142,"end":130.432,"text":"他說啊 全世界法庭直播只有中國 是這樣嗎美國沒有嗎 美國沒有的話怎麼會有強奴哈 曾經逮捕的那個世紀大直播呢英國也有啊 加拿大也有啊上次我都已經打臉他了他說要直播要發掉600多億600多倍的這個謊言吧我們立法院的直播 每看 大家每天都在看每天都在看"},{"start":131.601,"end":155.454,"text":"我們大概一年就是一億嘛上次我已經拆穿到謊言今天還來說什麼 還在造謠只有中國大陸有那強尼代普那個大司機的直播是怎麼回事美國有啊 英國有啊更重要的 更重要的我們為了這個事情做過兩次的大型民調大型的民調喔都是超過七成以上都贊成的"},{"start":157.062,"end":173.189,"text":"而且你的以前蔡英文的司法國事會議已經通過了你今天是怎麼樣吳司也來打臉蔡英文是不是這不是表決的問題我們也可以充分的討論可是請不要一直造謠好我今天要來談凱凱案讓人家痛心的凱凱案這個事情讓他悲痛的是一個才一歲半的小孩受到那麼樣的凌內"},{"start":186.659,"end":191.744,"text":"結果呢 現在社會除了悲傷之外 有去補破網嗎我去看了所有的資料我們的 內同的這個事件 越來越多然後這個刑度每次一判都越來越低這樣司法會讓民眾可以信任嗎"},{"start":210.12,"end":231.878,"text":"所以我們要回應民意不只是很多民眾上街去抗議了高達14萬人連署喔要求要增加內而致死要增加死刑今天台灣民眾黨也提出了修正動議我們要求增列以後如果內而致死要增加死刑剛剛部長是說法務部最後提案子也是往這方向走的勒"},{"start":242.208,"end":262.615,"text":"這部分那個零列的話那個應該重點不是在如果以零列的一個方式來達到殺人的一個目的那這部分我們認為是在立法的選擇可以再做增定的加重的一個處罰我們可以另外在因為零列的部分有些是在傷害有些單純的沒有造成傷害"},{"start":263.195,"end":290.404,"text":"那有些是他要以他當殺人的一個結果那我想這個整個一個致死的這部分我們都可以來研修來考量考量意見上禮拜的這個公聽會還有今天整個部長的回答看起來是網絡上放這樣在說我們希望早一點落實我們不允許不允許這個孽兒這個事件孽兒這個事件越來越多然後刑度竟然是越來越低的我們一定要盡力去矯正另外我來幫吳宗憲吳主席問這個"},{"start":293.203,"end":313.996,"text":"問一下 中憲在上個禮拜五二七的時候司法法治委員會當庭告發公務員涉犯刑務法第129條 溢流克扣罪中憲那天直接跟法務部當場就告發了嘛 對不對這很嚴重是因為"},{"start":315.345,"end":341.779,"text":"行政院違法亂紀違反三大法財政收支劃分法已經訂了說不能夠今年度的補助款不能比去年低結果你砍了636億當然就比去年低啊違法啊第二個我們在立法院審的時候也清清楚楚講只有對中央跟首屬機關根本就不能碰到這個地方的事情結果他竟然已經砍了第三個違法去年8月就已經要各個縣市政府編預算了"},{"start":342.959,"end":360.146,"text":"編完之後各個議會都通過了三大違法違法亂紀更嚴重的出犯了刑法129條一流客戶罪那中線上禮拜已經當場告發了嘛現在辦了嗎這個已經函請那個台高檢署來處理了處理中了對不對"},{"start":361.257,"end":380.035,"text":"OK 這事情要快辦因為這個影響到他那個砍掉的預算是跟各個地方政府跟人民的社會不利牽扯到很多老人家跟那個長輩跟那個小孩子的還有教育費用跟基礎建設那影響太大了這事情要快點辦另外我再問你一個不要雙標問題李俊麗啊經參秘書長請辭之後啊那法務部現在辦了嗎"},{"start":388.369,"end":412.197,"text":"這部分有告發了 跟北檢告發那這部分台北地檢署有在偵辦中今天的新聞說你們在偵辦你們現在是在調那個什麼李承樹啊我問你一下 保定我問你一下你們最近這個大搜索大搜押他這個背信罪跟現在李建立碰到這個事情他這個應該是背信跟侵殺嘛 對不對"},{"start":413.804,"end":438.526,"text":"這個可能有涉及到這部分的一個情形那當然以以前的公測資用可能有偽造文書、侵占詐欺、北檢等等那這部分到底有沒有那這部分北檢在偵辦中司法這個天平不能夠傾斜 不能雙標我剛剛就是問一個最簡單的問題一般民眾一定問你"},{"start":441.393,"end":465.821,"text":"你在大搜索跟大搜押的偽造文書跟相對這一邊的你建立這一邊的侵占跟背信哪個最比較重法定是一樣最高是一樣行者這邊一定比較重結果比較輕的這邊已經大搜索大搜押那麼多人了這邊現在看起來輕輕的到現在還在辦什麼在查那個里程數"},{"start":467.221,"end":486.307,"text":"這個檢查就是依他的偵查計畫這部分我沒辦法去干涉指導你不用干涉啦就是說不要讓民眾很清楚感受到你是雙標的不要雙標 把他碰到民進黨的時候轉彎一個是雙標嘛 不要碰到民進黨的時候轉彎這樣嘛這標準就是要一致 我跟你講你的天平傾斜 民眾就會看得到嘛OK 那不是 OK 好"},{"start":491.223,"end":517.401,"text":"好啦 最近那個 老師講 司法 我們一定要強調司法是人民一個很重要正義的防線啊 雖然民調這麼低 所以我已經苦苦 譬如說我已經提過好幾次了所以我們也是希望給司法一個純正的辦案空間嘛那那個包括什麼偵查審判都是一樣對 保證辦案空間一定是會的 全民都會支持 立法院一定會支持不過不會讓人民覺得你是雙標 碰到民進黨就轉彎民調已經那麼清楚跟你講 那麼多民眾已經上街頭了"},{"start":518.402,"end":523.11,"text":"我們都有歷史定位啦我覺得你現在是一個大家長我覺得你要留下好的歷史定位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時35分）謝謝主席，請司法院王副秘及法務部鄭部長，還有衛福部呂建德次長。"],["主席：請王副秘、鄭部長及呂次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["主席：法務部的黃次長要上臺嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：不用。"],["主席：好。"],["張委員啓楷：黃次長順便留著好了。","剛剛發言的吳思瑤又再吳造謠了，他竟然說苗博雅當證人來北院開庭的時候，有民眾黨的民眾攻擊他，有嗎？民眾黨的群眾跟支持者、小草都在對街，根本碰不到證人，有這個事嗎？有嗎？吳思瑤又再造謠了嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：都在問個案！"],["張委員啓楷：有嗎？你對我們民眾黨這麼嚴重的指控，是不是要鄭重澄清？","第二個，他那天去幫柯文哲講了不少話啊，包括看見光碟的時候，他直接講啊，那個呈現的，他說柯文哲市長不是一個會亂搞的人，我們很多民眾黨的人不只沒有攻擊他，還讚美他，幫柯文哲講公道話，還柯文哲清白啊！吳思瑤不要再造謠了！","吳思瑤剛剛還造謠，他說全世界法庭直播只有中國，是這樣嗎？美國沒有嗎？美國沒有的話，怎麼會有強尼戴普的那個世紀大直播呢？英國也有啊！加拿大也有啊！上次我都已經打臉他了，他說直播要花掉六百多億，是六百多倍的這個謊言吧！我們立法院的直播，你看，大家每天都在看，我們大概一年就是1億嘛，上次我已經拆穿他的謊言，今天還來造謠說只有中國大陸有，那強尼戴普那個大世紀的直播是怎麼回事？美國有啊！英國有啊！更重要的，我們為了這個事情做過兩次的大型民調，大型的民調喔，都是超過七成以上贊成的。而且以前蔡英文的司法國是會議已經通過了啊，他今天是怎麼樣？吳思瑤打臉蔡英文是不是？現在不是表決的問題，我們也可以充分的討論，可是請不要一直造謠！","我今天要來談剴剴案，讓人家痛心的剴剴案，這個事情讓人感到悲痛的是，一個才一歲半的小孩受到那樣的凌虐，結果呢，現在社會除了悲傷之外，有去補破網嗎？我去看了所有的資料，我們的虐童事件越來越多，然後每次判的刑度都越來越低，這樣的司法會讓民眾可以信任嗎？所以我們要回應民意，不只是很多民眾上街去抗議了，高達14萬人連署喔，要求增加虐兒致死的刑度到死刑，今天台灣民眾黨也提出了修正動議，我們要求增列，以後如果虐兒致死，要增加死刑。剛剛部長說法務部最近會提案，也是往這方向走，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分，凌虐的話，應該重點不是在這個，如果以凌虐的方式來達到殺人的目的，這部分我們認為在立法的選擇上可以再增訂加重的處罰，因為凌虐的部分，有些是有傷害，有些單純沒有造成傷害，有些是要達成殺人的一個結果，我想對於致死的部分，我們都可以來研修、來考量，廣納意見……"],["張委員啓楷：對，上禮拜的公聽會，還有今天部長的回答，看起來是往這個方向在走啦，我們希望早一點落實，我們不允許虐兒的事件越來越多，然後刑度竟然是越來越低的，我們一定要盡力去矯正。","另外，我來幫吳宗憲主席問一下，宗憲委員上個禮拜5月27日在司法及法制委員會當庭告發公務員涉犯刑法第一百二十九條的抑留剋扣罪，宗憲委員那天直接跟法務部當場告發了嘛，對不對？這個很嚴重是因為行政院違法亂紀，違反了三大法，第一個，財政收支劃分法已經規定了今年度的補助款不能比去年低，結果砍了636億，當然就比去年低，這就違法啊！第二個，我們在立法院審的時候也清清楚楚講，只有對中央跟所屬機關，根本就不能去碰到地方的事情，結果竟然也去砍了。第三個違法，去年8月就已經要各個縣市政府編預算了，編完之後，各個議會也都通過了。三大違法！違法亂紀！更嚴重的是觸犯了刑法第一百二十九條的抑留剋扣罪。宗憲委員上禮拜已經當場告發了嘛，現在辦了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個已經函請臺高檢署來處理了。"],["張委員啓楷：處理中了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，這個事情要快辦，因為這個影響很大，砍掉的預算是各地方政府中跟人民的社會福利有關，牽扯到很多長輩跟小孩子的福利，還有教育費用跟基礎建設，那個影響太大了，這件事情要快點辦。","另外，再問你一個不要雙標的問題，監察院秘書長李俊俋請辭之後，法務部現在辦了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分有告發了，跟北檢告發了，這部分臺北地檢署有在偵辦中。"],["張委員啓楷：今天的新聞說你們在偵辦，你們現在是在調那個里程數。部長，我問你一下，你們最近大搜索、大收押背信罪，跟現在李俊俋碰到的這個事情，他這個應該是背信跟侵占嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個可能有涉及到這部分的一個情形，當然，以前的公車私用可能有偽造文書、侵占、詐欺、背信等等，但是到底有沒有，這部分北檢在偵辦中。"],["張委員啓楷：司法的天平不能夠傾斜，不能雙標嘛！我剛剛就是問一個最簡單的問題，一般民眾一定問你啦，你在大搜索跟大收押的偽造文書，相比李俊俋這邊的侵占跟背信，哪個罪比較重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他們的法定刑是一樣的，最高刑是一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，刑責這邊一定比較重嘛，結果比較輕的這邊已經大搜索、大收押那麼多人了，這邊現在看起來是輕輕的，到現在還在查那個里程數。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官就是依他的偵查計畫啊，這部分我沒辦法去干涉、指導、介入嘛……"],["張委員啓楷：你不用干涉啦，就是說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就是個案……"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓民眾很清楚感受到你是雙標的，不要雙標，不要碰到民進黨的就轉彎，一個是雙標嘛，不要碰到民進黨就轉彎嘛，標準就是要一致，我跟你說，你的天平傾斜的話，民眾就會看得到嘛！","好啦，老實講，我們一直在強調司法是人民很重要的正義防線，這段時間的民調這麼低，我已經苦口婆心提過好幾次了，我覺得大家長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也是希望給司法一個純正的辦案空間嘛，包括偵查、審判都是一樣，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：對，部長，辦案空間一定是會的，全民都會支持，立法委員一定會支持……"],["鄭部長銘謙：純正的辦案空間，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：不過不要讓人民覺得你是雙標，碰到民進黨就轉彎，民調已經那麼清楚的跟你講，那麼多民眾也已經上街頭了，我們都有歷史定位啦，你現在是一個大家長，我覺得你要留下好的歷史定位，加油！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","再下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98289357fdd1f9f599d35e54a9d835821946ec695a437ff13aed13d3a7d221f21e215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:30:53 - 11:41:20","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:30:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:41:20+08:00","duration":627,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.17846875,"end":2.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.14034375,"end":6.3590937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.68721875,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.57284375,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.90346875,"end":33.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.05096875,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.88096875,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.197218750000005,"end":49.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.20034375,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.27159375,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.85721875,"end":61.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.04659375000001,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.29534375,"end":69.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.79221875,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.64596875000001,"end":129.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.63096875000002,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.93096875,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.70596875,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.58721875,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.89971875,"end":193.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.70534375000003,"end":225.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.32471875000002,"end":234.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.66096875000002,"end":234.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.13346875000002,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.11221875,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.50659375,"end":250.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.52346875,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.09284375000001,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.34596875000003,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.44221875,"end":260.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.61471875,"end":274.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.49221875,"end":261.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.00909375000003,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.15221875000003,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.95721875000004,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.44659375000003,"end":286.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":288.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.99846875000003,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.25096875,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.77346875,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.61221875,"end":305.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.48096875000005,"end":308.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.23596875000004,"end":317.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.70284375,"end":321.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.39409375,"end":323.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.86221875,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.95909375,"end":325.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.17409375,"end":326.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.88284375,"end":328.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.78971875,"end":329.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.98784375,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.45159375000003,"end":334.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.16846875000005,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.99534375,"end":337.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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邀請主計長還有台南市護士長"},{"start":12.694,"end":33.052,"text":"主席長 副市長早安我想行政院從去年8月將總預算送到立法院來審查現在已經超過9個月了主席長那距離立法院今天就是我們今年在1月21號三讀總預算到現在也有將近4個月其實"},{"start":34.153,"end":34.554,"text":"今天排這一個"},{"start":53.497,"end":74.387,"text":"內容的一個委員會的 那我們委員會今天排這個預算其實我想我應該為台南講一些話那我在這裡先請教主席長 這個美國罕見警告就是藍白兩黨勿不要那個二億三減國防預算那到目前為止"},{"start":76.128,"end":87.221,"text":"其實國民黨已經刪了在野黨已經刪了國防預算從國防部的武器設備及零件等等的一個軍事的裝備跟設施跟國軍的戰備工程他就刪了68.8億"},{"start":93.889,"end":114.242,"text":"那我想在這裡我要特別請教主席長就是說為什麼為什麼就是說在美國他們會這麼強調就是說他們嚴厲的警告那當然這個就是關係到我們台灣深層的一個問題不知道你對這個案子有什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":115.071,"end":127.487,"text":"所以我們盡量要來確保我們的國防預算也希望逐漸達到GDP的3%以上然後往上逐漸來增加但是今年刪減的預算所以我們就沒有辦法刪減國防"},{"start":129.73,"end":152.492,"text":"立法院要求我們自行刪減636那636的話我們如果不刪一般性補助我們就必須要刪國防外交還有一個教育所以兩項權衡之下我們不得不才刪一般性補助款636這個部分那我們也是強調各縣市如果有問題我們行政院會全力來協助解決這個問題以上一個補充"},{"start":154.073,"end":175.894,"text":"當然主席長我們知道你在平衡就是我們台灣的每一個地方每一個地方政府的一個經濟面所以你做了揮就是說不得已的一些就是資源上的一個分配那我們從地方自治那個制度法跟財政收支劃分法裡頭我們去看到了這一些法源那當然"},{"start":176.755,"end":177.316,"text":"我們知道在上個月"},{"start":191.94,"end":214.671,"text":"在上個月就葉澤山副市長在我們的行政院會議裡頭有特別建議行政院就是用追加預算的一個方式來處理解決地方面臨到的一個困難因為在這一次的統三預算還有收支劃分法裡頭其實台南是一個最困境的又被刪了最多也被凍了最多"},{"start":215.171,"end":239.85,"text":"那是不是護士長你可以說明一下就是說在我們財政這麼困難的狀況之下那你們建議用什麼樣的一個方式來追加這個預算謝謝賴委員對地方政府一般性補助款被刪除的這樣子的困境的一個關心那因為這一次立法院刪除了中央的總預算2076億那我想"},{"start":243.572,"end":271.329,"text":"行政院也是做出了非常困難的決定才會刪除地方的所謂的一般性的一個補助款我想這個可以理解不過這的確造成了地方上在今年度預算執行各項計畫執行上非常大的一個困境所以台南市政府跟其他縣市都是一樣面臨這樣子的一個困難所以各縣市也都提出了因應的一些策略"},{"start":271.969,"end":288.31,"text":"那有些縣市是提出了所謂的訴願但是依照訴願法的話那提到行政院行政院在三個月之內要做出決定但是可以再展延兩個月我相信各地方政府沒有辦法等五個月因為現在已經是六月份了"},{"start":289.071,"end":305.561,"text":"如果再等到5月份到12月了那其實都沒有意義了所以過去因為台南市政府也曾在100年的時候被議會刪除了38億所以當時候就是用追加預算的方式來解決了當時候的一個困難"},{"start":306.562,"end":334.277,"text":"所以我們在上個禮拜在黃偉哲市長特別的指示之下我們在行政院會特別提出了請行政院考量用追加預算的方式來解決目前地方政府所遭遇到的一些困境那也謝謝行政院很快的來同意用追加預算的方式但是如果沒有立法院立委們大家的一個支持"},{"start":335.202,"end":349.475,"text":"我想這等於是空談所以我想在這裡也要特別拜託我們各位立委能夠考量到地方政府今年度各項計畫已經都在執行或是它是延續性的一個計畫不能夠停"},{"start":352.037,"end":379.547,"text":"所以要拜託各位立委們大家來共同支持行政院的追加預算那我想這是干擾體制最低最低而且最及時有效的方式啦干擾體制最低也是最快的一個方式啦我們知道就是說台南在六都的統籌分配款裡頭其實我們不僅是分配的最少也是增加的最少的啦那在這裡我要請教主計長如果一"},{"start":380.307,"end":401.5,"text":"那個台南市政府就是說他提出的一個追加預算的一個方式那如果是可行啦如果是可行那那個主席長這個需要多少的時間你可以去匯集地方政府的需求跟意見然後向行政院提出這個追加預算呢各位委員報告其實我們剛剛講的就是說"},{"start":404.892,"end":420.601,"text":"一般性補助的部分它主要是在調節縣市的不均衡那所以一般直轄市它分配61%的統籌分配稅那其他縣市是24%那這有基本上的不公平的現象所以我們就會透過一般性補助來把它彌平來"},{"start":422.622,"end":443.708,"text":"讓各縣市之間能夠達到一些的均衡所以一般縣市補助它的功用是在這裡跟統總分配稅款是按照營業稅那些的不一樣所以這個台南市的部分它在一般性的補助款的刪減部分它就會刪得比較多那主計長你一般性的補助的數額你怎麼去決定它呢"},{"start":444.228,"end":471.128,"text":"對我們就是按他一個基本的一個三項基本財政的一個項目然後再加一個增育財源就是說我補助你讓你比去年更多的一個部分這個除了定額補助以外還有一個增育財源這主要是這些項目但是現在就是說我們刪減了台南市有提出要追加預算但是追加預算也必須要符合追加預算的一個要件那第二個還要看你說時間要多少那必須要看"},{"start":471.508,"end":497.143,"text":"提出追加預算的一個項目第三個還要是說我們提出追加預算的部分要貴委員會貴院要能夠來支持那這才有用所以本身我們自己在追加預算的一個籌編的部分時間必須要看我們提追加預算項目的多寡這樣一般總預算他項目很多就大概需要三個月那如果項目不是那麼多我們可能盡量縮短時間以上一個補充"},{"start":499.204,"end":527.657,"text":"所以最少三個月啦好 主席長我再請教你就是說那個行政院今天統三一般性的補助款這個合不合法它的法律依據在哪裡因為行政院已經決定在今年統三一般性的補助款25%囉那我們相對的我們台南也會減少52億那到底這個統三一般性的補助款到底是不是那個合法那你的法律依據在哪裡"},{"start":528.439,"end":548.244,"text":"是 其實我們依照地方制度法第69條的一個規定我們對於中央對於財力較差的一個縣市 佐予補助而且還要橫佐我們自己中央的一個力量來做一個補助所以我們現在刪一般性補助款我們也沒有違反相關的一個法令的規定"},{"start":549.704,"end":573.276,"text":"所以是在沒有違法那如果在沒有違法的前提之下我們都知道在1月21號就是立法院已經三讀通過2025年的中央那個政府的總預算案可是審查這個審查的這一個預算案是由多數席次的在野黨他們專制去主導那其實在這種非常混亂"},{"start":574.497,"end":591.665,"text":"那非常草率的就是通過了刪讀甚至沒有宣讀沒有宣讀就是刪減後的稅出的總額那如果因為這樣子這麼混亂的一個狀況之下那你來刪除這個一般性的一個補助款我可以不可以這樣講呢"},{"start":593.007,"end":620.495,"text":"是因為立法院刪除的一個要我們進行刪減636那金額盤納實在是自愛難行那另外也會造成政策成敗無所歸屬然後責任政治難以建立所以這個部分呢我們也提出復議但是復議又被維持原決議所以這個部分我們現在仍然在申請釋憲當中所以我們是盡所有的一個救濟程序的一個能力來做"},{"start":622.295,"end":623.577,"text":"好 謝謝我想主計長加油謝謝賴兆偉的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時30分）謝謝主席，有請主計長還有臺南市副市長葉澤山副市長。"],["主席：主計長、臺南市副市長。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長、副市長早安。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：行政院從去年8月將總預算送到立法院來審查，現在已經超過9個月了，主計長，距離立法院今年1月21號三讀總預算，到現在也有將近4個月，其實朝野很多委員並不了解在預算上的刪除跟凍預算會影響到整個行政系統，尤其是我們臺灣的整個行政系統，對於它的影響面有多大。","我們委員會今天排這個預算，我想我應該為臺南講一些話，我在這裡先請教主計長，美國罕見警告藍、白兩黨不要惡意刪減國防預算，到目前為止，其實國民黨已經刪了、在野黨已經刪了國防預算，從國防部的武器設備及零件等等軍事裝備及設施以及國軍的戰備工程，就刪了68.8億。在這裡我要特別請教主計長，為什麼美國會這麼強調，且他們嚴厲地警告，當然這就是關係到我們臺灣的生存問題，不知道你對這個案子有什麼樣的看法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以我們儘量要來確保我們的國防預算，也希望逐漸達到占GDP3%以上，並逐漸往上增加，但因為今年刪減了預算，所以我們就沒有辦法刪減國防，因為立法院要求我們自行刪減636億，如果不刪一般性補助，我們就必須要刪國防、外交還有教育，所以兩相權衡之下，我們才不得不刪一般性補助款636億，我們也是強調，各縣市如果有問題，我們行政院會全力來協助解決這個問題。以上補充。"],["賴委員惠員：當然，主計長，我們知道你在平衡我們臺灣每一個地方政府的經濟面，所以你做了不得已的資源上的分配，我們從地方制度法跟財政收支劃分法看到了這些法源，至於這部分有沒有違憲，我們已經提出了釋憲的動作。上個月葉澤山副市長在行政院會議有特別建議行政院用追加預算的方式來處理，解決地方面臨到的困難，因為受到這次統刪預算以及財政收支劃分法的影響，其實臺南是最面臨到困境的，被刪了最多，也被凍了最多，副市長是不是可以說明一下，在財政這麼困難的狀況之下，你們建議用什麼樣的方式來追加預算？"],["葉副市長澤山：謝謝賴委員對地方政府一般性補助款被刪除這樣的困境的關心，因為這次立法院刪除了中央總預算2,076億，我想行政院也是做出了非常困難的決定，才會刪除地方的一般性補助款，我想這可以理解，不過這的確造成了地方上在今年度預算執行、各項計畫執行上非常大的困境，所以臺南市政府跟其他縣市都一樣面臨這樣的困難，所以各縣市也都提出了一些因應的策略，有些縣市是提出訴願，但是依照訴願法，提到行政院，行政院在三個月之內要做出決定，但可以再展延兩個月，我相信各地方政府沒有辦法等五個月，因為現在已經是6月份了，如果再等五個月就到12月了，那其實都沒有意義了。","過去臺南市政府也曾在100年的時候被議會刪除了38億，當時就是用追加預算的方式來解決當時的困難。所以上個禮拜在黃偉哲市長特別指示之下，我們在行政院會特別提出了請行政院考量用追加預算的方式來解決目前地方政府所遭遇到的困境，也謝謝行政院很快地同意用追加預算的方式，但是如果沒有立法院立委們大家的支持，我想這等於是空談，所以我在這裡也要特別拜託各位立委，能夠考量到地方政府今年度各項計畫已經都在執行，或它是延續性的計畫，不能夠停，所以要拜託各位立委們，大家來共同支持行政院的追加預算，我想這是干擾體制最低、最低而且最即時有效的方式。"],["賴委員惠員：好，干擾體制最低也是最快的一個方式。我們知道臺南在六都的統籌分配款裡，其實我們不僅是分配得最少，也是增加最少的，在這裡我要請教主計長，如果依臺南市政府所提出的追加預算方式，如果是可行，主計長，這部分需要多少的時間，你可以去匯集地方政府的需求跟意見，然後向行政院提出追加預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，其實我們剛剛講的一般性補助的部分，主要是在調節縣市的不均衡，所以一般直轄市分配61%的統籌分配稅，其他縣市是24%，基本上這有不公平的現象，所以我們就會透過一般性補助來把它弭平，讓各縣市之間能夠達到均衡，所以一般性補助的功用是在這裡，跟統籌分配稅款是按照營業稅那些是不一樣的，所以臺南市在一般性補助款的刪減部分，就會被刪的比較多。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，一般性補助的數額，你怎麼去決定它呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們就是按照三項基本財政的項目，然後再加一個增裕財源，就是說我補助你，讓你比去年更多，除了定額補助以外，還有一個增裕財源，最主要是這些項目。但是現在就是說我們刪減了，臺南市有提出要追加預算，但是追加預算也必須要符合追加預算的要件；第二個，你說時間要多少，必須要看提出追加預算的項目；第三個，我們提出追加預算的部分還要貴院能夠來支持，這才有用，所以本身我們自己在追加預算的籌編部分，時間必須要看我們提追加預算項目的多寡，一般總預算項目很多，就大概需要三個月，如果項目不是那麼多，我們可能儘量縮短時間。以上補充。"],["賴委員惠員：所以最少三個月啦，好。主計長，我再請教你，就是行政院今天統刪一般性補助款，這個合不合法，它的法律依據在哪裡？因為行政院已經決定在今年統刪一般性補助款25%，相對地我們臺南也會減少52億，到底統刪一般性補助款是不是合法，法律依據在哪裡？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，依照地方制度法第六十九條的規定，我們中央對於財力較差的縣市酌予補助，而且還要衡酌我們中央自己的力量來做補助，所以我們現在刪一般性補助款也沒有違反相關法令規定。"],["賴委員惠員：好，所以是沒有違法嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員惠員：如果在沒有違法的前提之下，我們都知道在1月21號，就是立法院已經三讀通過2025年中央政府總預算案，可是審查這一個預算案是由多數席次的在野黨專制去主導，其實在這種非常混亂、非常草率的通過了三讀，甚至沒有宣讀刪減後的歲出總額，如果因為這麼混亂的一個狀況之下，你來刪除一般性補助款，我可不可以這樣講呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為立法院要我們自行刪減636億，金額龐大實在是窒礙難行，另外也會造成政策成敗無所歸屬，責任政治難以建立，所以這個部分我們也提出覆議，但是覆議又被維持原決議，所以這個部分現在仍在申請釋憲當中，所以我們是盡所有的救濟程序的能力來做。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝，我想主計長，加油！大罷免、大成功。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢，謝謝。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查"},{"start":132.79,"end":151.96,"text":"認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎"},{"start":161.283,"end":182.639,"text":"我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起"},{"start":183.379,"end":198.811,"text":"加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長"},{"start":200.011,"end":218.635,"text":"我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部管我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管"},{"start":227.058,"end":243.332,"text":"實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的"},{"start":244.676,"end":254.099,"text":"外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教育局管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題"},{"start":262.062,"end":265.606,"text":"不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題這個部分還是說網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵"},{"start":281.886,"end":303.656,"text":"對阿你講的是天兵阿你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的"},{"start":303.976,"end":321.394,"text":"现在所有这些我问的都是不是说他的身份是他在工作的场合所以我们要认为说他的身份是你的你一直推给教育部我今天的是说不心离开这个学生他是在实习的合作的"},{"start":322.975,"end":341.835,"text":"的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外"},{"start":342.375,"end":351.2,"text":"今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍"},{"start":370.252,"end":372.494,"text":"難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎"},{"start":386.417,"end":404.405,"text":"我還是跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計表如果你這樣可以回答我現在問你的工作錢他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員"},{"start":405.245,"end":421.098,"text":"不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為"},{"start":423.96,"end":441.245,"text":"廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合"},{"start":442.58,"end":463.275,"text":"商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的"},{"start":464.195,"end":473.837,"text":"所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧"},{"start":491.44,"end":512.431,"text":"明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛啊你都一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分"},{"start":515.802,"end":539.513,"text":"沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事這當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做"},{"start":541.314,"end":554.987,"text":"實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他有要他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛"},{"start":556.809,"end":579.78,"text":"所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者工讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所"},{"start":582.462,"end":589.108,"text":"職業的安全 還有主管單位 就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部 如何去合作 確保把我們的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的 這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部 我從來沒有這樣說"},{"start":603.462,"end":621.543,"text":"我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情"},{"start":622.421,"end":636.395,"text":"所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉"},{"start":638.777,"end":652.073,"text":"他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對我看你這裡要釐清一個就是"},{"start":657.018,"end":681.951,"text":"這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣 兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業"},{"start":683.012,"end":706.11,"text":"服務業跟我們的工讀的也是服務業所以變成各簽約就是20個小時所以呢變成20個小時同樣的公司同樣的場域同樣的工作是這樣子的分不清就變成廉價勞工所以我們希望就是說我們教育部跟勞動部要如何做勞檢要減少這樣子的發生"},{"start":709.332,"end":729.629,"text":"如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就不會有了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以"},{"start":730.389,"end":750.237,"text":"在做勞檢的時候讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生讓他們有保障我們教育的時間現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制現在是有 而且其實之前已經有開過會了"},{"start":751.636,"end":761.501,"text":"那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協來協督在這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了"},{"start":767.003,"end":794.736,"text":"但是來家就沒多重 要四人啊 沒人要插這樣這麼丟 叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴 跟我陳述還有最後一個問題 我要問一下說勞動部在三月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階"},{"start":795.916,"end":808.905,"text":"技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度"},{"start":811.447,"end":833.448,"text":"緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這6類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那"},{"start":834.649,"end":851.727,"text":"確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔"},{"start":854.249,"end":879.088,"text":"他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我都不做了委員3月的時候"},{"start":882.11,"end":907.897,"text":"委員3月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套"},{"start":908.337,"end":923.118,"text":"希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家因為主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他"},{"start":924.159,"end":939.623,"text":"還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我說明這兩件事"},{"start":943.404,"end":948.449,"text":"給我書面的一個完整的就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是梯來梯去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好"},{"start":966.528,"end":990.42,"text":"把人準備好啊 部長還沒準備好這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛 對不對不能說已經公佈我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整好嗎是 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝麥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":732,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時20分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。部長，上次總質詢的時候，我有針對外籍實習生和僑生打工的勞動權提出質詢，你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管，實習生是歸教育部管，但是事實上，部長有沒有清楚實習生和僑生都不是在談身分或學籍，而是討論他們在勞動現場的權益誰來保障，這份監察院的調查報告，部長，你有沒有看過？"],["洪部長申翰：對不起，我這邊看不太清楚，你說這是哪一個時候的報告？2023年，有，我知道。"],["麥委員玉珍：你知道，上面的案由明明白白地寫著涉及外籍學生受教權及實習與工讀之勞動安全，有深入瞭解之必要，來臺就讀產學專班的越南籍大學生，於實習與工讀的烘焙工廠中不幸遭到台車意外壓砸致死，讓離鄉背井來臺求學的外僑生就這樣子失去生命。這份報告指出監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查，認定這個廠商違反職業安全衛生設施規則暨職業安全衛生法規定，沒有設置足夠預防倒塌之必要措施，所以部長看到這裡，你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟麥委員說明，第一個事情，實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部，但如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分，其實我們過去也一直跟教育部、僑委會表達，我們很願意一起加入討論，甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方，我們也很願意協助。因為的確會有部分的實習，假如涉及到是工作型的話，就有需要符合的勞動法規部分，這部分的勞動法規……"],["麥委員玉珍：你是勞動部長，還是教育部長？"],["洪部長申翰：我當然是勞動部長。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！我問你勞動部的事情，我當然是問勞動相關，我才說是不是歸你管的，你一直推這是教育部管的，我問的是歸你管的部分，你要回答我歸你管的，不是回答……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要再次……"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在不是說他的身分或學籍，我說的是勞動、勞動，實習與工讀的時間是不是歸你管，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，實習這件事情是教育部主管的，但如果裡面有涉及到比方工作型的部分，它要符合的勞動法規，這個法規的規範是勞動部管的，可是實習這件事情的政策本身當然還是教育部主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：外僑生來臺灣實習、打工是歸你管的，已經跟你講N次了，現在我問的是你管的範圍。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，打工和實習是不一樣的。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是問教育部管的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，打工……"],["麥委員玉珍：因為你是秀才，所以我要問秀才的問題，你要答秀才的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：什麼是……"],["麥委員玉珍：你要答秀才的問題，不要講天兵的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：什麼秀才？"],["麥委員玉珍：因為……"],["洪部長申翰：秀才是……"],["麥委員玉珍：網路上說你是秀才部長，我是天兵問不對題，但是我現在問的是秀才要講的議題，你不要講天兵的議題。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我沒有覺得你是天兵啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：你講的是天兵，你的事情我問你，你回答……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我沒有覺得你是天兵。"],["麥委員玉珍：我不是問教育部的事情，我問的是你職責的問題，因為你的職責就是歸你管的，這個就是外籍實習生……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我還是要讓你知道，第一個，打工和實習是不同的。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個我們都知道，但是我問的是他們的權益……"],["洪部長申翰：打工當然是勞動部管的，但是實習這件事情的政策本身是教育部管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在所有的這些問題，我問的都不是他的身分，而是他工作的場合，所以我們認為這個權責是你的，結果你一直推給教育部，我今天說的是不幸離開的這個學生，他是在實習合作的工作場合勞動，而且監察院也會同勞動檢查，顯然監察院不認為這個是產學專班的學生，所以勞動部不能置身事外，今天不管他的身分是外籍學生或僑生、打工或實習，我們討論的是他現在確確實實在勞動現場，所以我們要討論的是你的職責，不要再去講規定。因為暴露在勞動風險之中，就是勞動部的勞動檢查範圍，這難道不是勞動部的責任嗎？我問的是你的責任範圍，你講你的責任範圍就好了，不要去講行政範圍，也不要講他的身分或學籍的問題，好嗎？時間有限。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你要讓我回答嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要跟委員說明，實習這件事情是教育部主責，但是如果有涉及比方工作型的實習……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果你這樣子回答，我現在問你的是工作權……"],["洪部長申翰：他要遵守的……"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在要問的是他的工作、打工事實。"],["洪部長申翰：他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管，打工這件事情是勞動部，可是打工和實習是不一樣的，委員！"],["麥委員玉珍：不一樣？同樣的場合，你說不一樣，你來認定這是他實習的地方還是打工的地方，你認定啊！有沒有認定？"],["洪部長申翰：如果是打工的部分當然是由勞動部主管。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果是這樣子的話，實際上因為廠商有實習和工作兩種合約，但是廠商聘用這個外籍實習生工讀是兩個合約加起來，一個20個小時，兩個一週就是40小時。"],["洪部長申翰：對，這是打工、工讀的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：這是他們簽的約，但是上工的場合是一樣的，你認為不一樣，但是是一樣的，所以誰來負責？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分，其實在我們的就服法裡面有規定是20個小時，這20個小時工讀的部分，當然是勞動部來主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：我知道是勞動部主管，所以我才問你，我不是問教育部，你要回答你的工作範圍，還有你的管轄範圍，你給他們什麼保障、什麼權利，你有沒有分清楚？你知不知道這是人命關天？我是問你的職責，不要再去講其他的，結婚要去戶政登記，生小孩也要去戶政登記，明明他生小孩就是去醫院，你一直講生小孩跟結婚在同一個地方，完全是不同的，我們在這邊要講得很清楚，我講的是你的職責，我希望你回答的是你的職責，因為外僑生聘僱的時候是簽兩個合約，但是他的工作場合誰分？沒有分清楚，所以我們認為這個層面要研議，以避免後續發生這樣子的事情，所以才要讓你回答……"],["洪部長申翰：對工作的場合或者是打工的場合發生的這些勞動相關爭議，這當然我們要來介入，如果需要的話，比如有人檢舉，我們要進場勞檢、檢查、裁罰，我想這部分勞動主管機關都會來做。實習的部分，如果他是工作型的實習，他有可能要遵守的勞動法規，這個勞動法規的規範或者是法規的主管，當然勞動部也有責任要來協助。"],["麥委員玉珍：本來就是你的責任，我才問你，不是你的責任，我來這裡問你幹嘛？所以實質上，這份報告指出，目前專科以上學生校外實習的權益就是缺乏這樣的保障，所以常見學生會在同一個工廠，學校外籍學生或者工讀是在同一個場合、同一個地方工作，所以我們覺得這樣子的工廠場所的職業安全，還有主管單位勞動部要如何積極與教育部合作，確保別人的孩子來這裡讀書是安全的，不是說這不是我的，所以我們要問的是這個問題。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我從來沒有說這不干勞動部的事情，我從來沒有這樣說。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們要的是合作……"],["洪部長申翰：其實過去教育部在召開相關會議的時候，我們在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分，在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分，我們都願意協助，我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的，我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我現在要問你的事情，你要回答怎麼樣去合作，還有廠商要如何勞檢，因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題。"],["洪部長申翰：如果有個案，學生也好或外界也好，要提出檢舉，他有違反法規的話，我想我們的檢查單位都願意進場來協助檢視。"],["麥委員玉珍：我剛才問你的這個場合，就是他們實習跟工讀的在一樣的場合，你看得出來嗎？因為你現在就說看不出來嘛，對不對？"],["主席：來來來，麥委員，我看你這裡要釐清一個點，就是這個學生來臺灣是產學合作的，還是他另外又去打工的？那是不……"],["麥委員玉珍：一樣，這兩個都是在他們勞保的部分或者工作場合，現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清的，因為現在開放外籍生實習的就是服務業，他們工讀的也是服務業，所以變成各簽約20個小時，所以變成40個小時同樣的公司、同樣的場域、同樣的工作，是這樣子的，分不清，就變成廉價勞工。所以我們希望教育部跟勞動部如何做勞檢，來減少這樣子的事情發生……"],["洪部長申翰：如果這裡面有個案，有人提出檢舉，我們當然都願意進場來檢視，檢視他在工作過程裡面的相關性質……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們現在要求就是因為有人……"],["洪部長申翰：有沒有要求勞務上的付出。"],["麥委員玉珍：有人發生意外，我們才要去做的話就來不及了啦！我們希望勞動部是不是可以透過勞檢，讓這些業者不會有這樣子的情形，也保障這些外籍實習生、僑生、工讀生，讓他們有保障，我們要求的是這個。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在我們跟教育部已經有一個相關的聯合查察機制，而且之前已經有開過會了，其實這部分我們有在進行中，所以我們很願意來協助教育部這方面。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果是這樣的話，可以給我一份更完整的報告，讓我們知道，因為別人的小孩到國外讀書，他已經每天在煩惱了，對不對？但是來這裡卻沒有保障，死了人，沒有人要理，這樣對嗎？還叫別人來這裡讀書，這是很多在國外的媽媽跟我申訴、跟我陳述的。","還有最後一個問題我要問一下，勞動部在3月底預告，要開放僑外生畢業後，可以從事六大類的中階技術工作，包含旅宿業、照護輔佐、倉儲管理，還有客運駕駛、隨車助理，也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術培訓課程，適度緩解飯店業的缺工，但是在5月7號又正式公告說，這些通通被刪除。部長，可以說明一下為什麼暫緩推行的原因？"],["洪部長申翰：好。跟委員說明，確實這六類當中有幾個，尤其是司機，確實外界有一些針對司機的疑慮，對於他語言的熟悉度或是對於一些，包括駕駛在路上的話，對於這些標示語言的熟悉狀況，我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套，主要是從安全的面向……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們交通部部長說沒問題，他說這個部分他已經準備好，是看你們這邊什麼樣的問題，因為交通部是沒有問題的。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，就我知道，現在交通部其實也在檢討當中，看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套，主要是大家希望在安全上面有多一點的把關，主要是針對司機的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你在3月底說開放之前都沒有跟他們溝通嗎？各個部會都沒有溝通就宣告了，大家都準備好了，到5月份說我不要做了，可以這樣不負責任嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，3月的時候是預告，預告本來就是為了蒐集各界的意見，所以在蒐集各界意見的過程中，有人提到這樣的疑問，會請行政部門再做確認，所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題提配套，針對如果要開放僑外生成為中階技術工、成為司機的話，相關的配套希望能夠再多加精進，來化解大家的疑慮，主要是這樣。當時其實就是預告，預告本來就是蒐集大家的意見。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，很好，但是不只是交通部，其他部會也有要和你開放的相關行業嘛……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你就不能說，因為針對交通部，你就是要喊卡，因為交通部他們也是說可以，其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施，這樣對大家也有幫助，不能說你公告後，5月份就正式刪除，所以針對今天的問題，我希望部長給我書面……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這部分我們準備好還是會讓它上路。"],["麥委員玉珍：這兩件事給我一個完整的書面讓我們知道，對我們在國際上的名聲……因為人命關天，這個部分我們不能踢來踢去，該負責的、該做的我們要做；還有很多的業者看到要開放了，大家都很高興，也都準備好了。別人準備好了，部長還沒準備好。政府說要做，就要準備好，我們對政府才有信任，對不對？不能說已經公布，我們大家還沒有做好，到最後我們人民都準備好了，政府才說我還沒有準備好，這樣子不行。所以希望這兩個給我更完整的書面回應，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。好。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥委員，謝謝部長。","麥委員，這個學生的case有勞保的撫卹什麼的，都有吧？"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊，所以勞保就要問他啊！"],["主席：有沒有？有沒有啦？有沒有收到啦？他們有沒有收到死亡撫卹什麼的，都有吧？"],["麥委員玉珍：這部分有的人是完全有，有的就是說他領一年，在第二年就沒消息，沒有人幫忙他，我們收到的資料是因為勞動補助就是喪葬費，還有家屬請領的部分也沒有後續，因為每年都要審查，在國外要領的話是……"],["主席：好啦，部長，你派人跟他溝通一下啦。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這個我希望就是……因為每一個人繳的勞保都一樣……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我會請同仁跟你聯繫……"],["主席：圓滿的解決啦這樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：賴惠員，賴惠員，賴惠員委員不在。","鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","林德福改成書面質詢。","請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828f2041757e74a6621b8fa27110b4cf3b3ec695a437ff13aed5d5d57c87ccf072a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:26:19 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11:34:53","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T11:26:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:34:53+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.910343750000003,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.61846875,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.347843750000003,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.942218750000002,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.05596875,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.299718750000004,"end":35.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.97471875,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.16034375,"end":60.375968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.797843750000006,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.65721875,"end":94.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.42534375000001,"end":105.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.87096875,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.66596875,"end":123.01596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.01596875000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.33659375,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.86971875,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.38846875000002,"end":146.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":157.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.09909375,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.72784375,"end":219.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.01346875000002,"end":247.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.03034375000001,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.32159375000003,"end":286.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.77096875,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.56784375,"end":290.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.27659375,"end":291.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.57034375,"end":301.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.88659375000003,"end":303.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.66284375000004,"end":337.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.09596875,"end":313.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.21721875000003,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.69971875000005,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.83284375,"end":379.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.88409375000003,"end":373.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.06034375,"end":379.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.97159375,"end":388.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.65409375,"end":422.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.59034375000005,"end":389.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.12596875,"end":392.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.27659375,"end":399.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.22534375000004,"end":403.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.53659375,"end":409.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.12596875,"end":418.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.26096875,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.63159375000004,"end":433.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.61721875,"end":433.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.39346875,"end":459.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.77346875,"end":462.01784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.43971875000005,"end":502.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.83846875000006,"end":505.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.50034375,"end":506.66909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.66909375000006,"end":506.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.68596875000003,"end":506.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.71971875,"end":506.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.73659375000005,"end":506.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.753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你剛剛提的好像很不錯都好像有一個很考量到時間性可是每個月甚至無法讓每一個學生都能夠至少有一次的訪視機會在2022年CRC被國際委員審查的時候"},{"start":187.99,"end":212.268,"text":"他的主席Duke他也講說一定要有比較多的時間讓他們跟家庭有互動甚至社工有互動未來歸戶社區的可能性才會比較高可是你這樣的像端平每個月甚至都無法讓每一個學生都有至少一次的訪視機會更不願讓家長委託社工寄送零用或者是會客的"},{"start":213.348,"end":241.547,"text":"那個菜那這個問題必須要盡快解決署長你可以承諾這個問題要去處理嗎是 報告委員上次委員你有執行過我們回去有請我們紹角校還有相關的來做改進那我們所知道的是有一些社工他可以透過公務接見我們都會配合來做相關的時間的調整還有空間的提供"},{"start":242.507,"end":246.73,"text":"比較合適做一些輔導的這個部分我們都有在努力改進"},{"start":272.227,"end":272.355,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":273.639,"end":302.013,"text":"報告委員我們現在都有一個定期聯繫的那個機制包括就是說跟矯正署這邊還有另外有一個就是跟地方政府這邊的一個整個權責上的一個督導我們都有一個協調機制可是我不知道就是說我現在聽到的實務狀況是你剛剛講只是說有機制可是我問的是時間到底甚至結案的指標有沒有掌握因為各地方政府從接獲家長報案甚至"},{"start":304.133,"end":328.422,"text":"轉介到進案到派案的時間都不一定有的可以快速一週內派案有的需要將近三個月的時間那我認為這個時間間隔不應該這麼久因為這段時間兒少的狀況恐怕會有很大的變化也可能會造成非常的危險而且對於收案的逆境社工來說恐怕也沒有全收集到相關的資訊可以協助他去聯繫廚藥"},{"start":329.922,"end":349.924,"text":"本來是要派案社工去處理而且沒有任何資源可以提供鵝哨協助只能被動地接受這樣的狀況甚至未開案的結案指標設計部分單位因為失蹤鵝哨家案家的服務指引的規定就變相認定如果一個月內找不到人"},{"start":350.484,"end":379.54,"text":"沒有辦法完成調查評估的話就自己結案了有些是這樣做的欸等個案出現時就並不會重啟調查還上去持續再通報而且順利在一個月內找到人才能真正的做那個調查評估與後續的處遇介入所以這部分是不是我認為需要請市長這邊去協助檢視跟精進各縣市執行的時間的個案管理流程跟結案指標這個可以承諾做到嗎"},{"start":380.74,"end":407.25,"text":"巴委員非常感謝委員剛剛所點出這些問題我覺得這個如果說有超過三個月然後我想這個確實會對你看有的快到一週有的事實上要到三個月我覺得這個落差真的很大甚至有的一個月就給他結案找不到人就結案有的事實上找不到人三個月結案這各縣市的做法不太一樣最後我上次也有提到耳哨精神醫療資源的問題保護部也很誠實地回覆我說目前的困境在於我們的醫師員額的"},{"start":408.951,"end":411.914,"text":"我們會跟衛福部來隨時做一些溝通聯繫來盡量做一些改善保障這些少年的權益"},{"start":434.457,"end":454.563,"text":"目前衛福部也有推動嚴重情緒行為 身障者精神醫療就醫的障礙改善計畫我知道今天新建師的專委也有來也麻煩你們提出書面報告說明目前跟矯正學校合作整個配合的狀況是什麼是不是有做外展服務以及目前的推動進度"},{"start":456.423,"end":472.357,"text":"那最後大家就是期待我對這個兒少年的輔導服務我主張可不可以完善各校的訪師機制上次已經有諮詢過有沒有一個明確的流程跟配套來提供少年跟家庭處於工作"},{"start":472.877,"end":500.253,"text":"的具體支持否則一旦他出了社區的話從高結構走到低結構的話沒有辦法讓社工在社區接得住小孩我覺得藥頭跟我們的幫派比我們搶小孩搶得更快第二個是讓全面檢視跟精進各地方的政府我覺得處理失蹤兒少的個案管理流程跟我們的結案指標那就要麻煩次長這邊還有快速佈建兒少精神醫療資源來加強跨單位的合作再麻煩兩位那麻煩這"},{"start":503.795,"end":509.181,"text":"兩週內是不是兩邊都可以給我書面報告好 謝謝委員我們回去我們趕快來聽委員感謝 感謝委員謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請張祺凱"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":691,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時26分）主席，麻煩請呂次長跟矯正署署長。"],["主席：請次長及矯正署署長。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：兩位早安。我先請教署長，我在4月初有針對少年矯正輔導的議題質詢過，也跟矯正署索取書面報告，今天剛好衛福部也有人來，所以我希望能夠針對逆境方案跟兩位再做討論。","逆境方案目前仍然是定期性的計畫，第一會期的時候保護司曾回復我會朝向長年期計畫規劃，可是現在實務上還是有很多意見都指出，因為社工是方案委託，不具有法定權限，在執行少年跟家庭處遇工作的時候，常常因為沒有權責，所以會處處碰壁。今天我特別要提出兩種類型，就是失蹤兒少跟司法矯治少年的部分。","首先想問署長，目前各校的訪視時段是不是有統一的規劃？每個月的名額是不是依照學生的數量進行調整？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，針對少年的部分，從他入校之後，我們原則上三個月內會做一些相關的調查，包括他有沒有需要做一些家庭支持，但是他在……"],["林委員月琴：三個月內嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：少年出校之後一年內，我們會做後追，這個後追可能是針對包括將來他的就業、就學，或是有些就醫、就養的問題，我們會做一些協助，提供一些平臺資源的挹注。"],["林委員月琴：署長，事實上在上次質詢的時候我就有提過訪視空間跟機制規劃不夠友善的問題，矯正署也有回復我書面報告，但我還是認為實務上遭遇的困難無法透過矯正署說的「充分聯繫」來解決，我認為需要有個明確的機制，才會有效改善問題。不然像敦品，你剛剛提的好像很不錯，好像都有考量到時間性，可是每個月甚至無法讓每一個學生都能夠至少有一次的訪視機會。在2022年CRC被國際委員審查的時候，他的主席Duke也講說，一定要有比較多的時間讓他們跟家庭有互動，甚至跟社工有互動，未來歸復社區的可能性才會比較高。可是你們這樣的情況，像敦品，每個月甚至都無法讓每一個學生有至少一次的訪視機會，更不願讓家長委託社工寄送零用或者是會客菜，這個問題必須要儘快解決。署長，你可以承諾這個問題要去處理嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：是，報告委員，上次委員提出質詢後，我們回去有請少矯校及相關單位做改進，我們所知道的是，有一些社工可以透過公務接見，我們都會配合來做相關時間的調整，還有在空間方面提供比較合適做一些輔導的地方，這個部分我們都有在努力改進當中。"],["林委員月琴：你這邊處理完之後，如果有確定要這樣做的話，是不是可以給我一個書面報告？","再來我想問次長，目前逆境社工在失蹤兒少的收案及聯繫的處遇上，是否對各縣市的結案指標都有掌握？從地方政府單位收案後，是不是能夠充分掌握失蹤兒少的相關資訊？整體的服務過程需要多久？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在都有一個定期聯繫的機制，包括跟矯正署這邊，另外還有一個是對地方政府在整個權責上的督導，我們都有一個協調機制。"],["林委員月琴：因為我現在聽到的實務狀況是，你剛剛講的只是有機制，可是我問的是時間，甚至結案的指標有沒有掌握，因為各地方政府從接獲家長報案，甚至轉介到進案、到派案的時間都不一定，有的可以快速的在一週內派案，有的卻要將近三個月的時間，我認為這個時間間隔不應該這麼久，因為這段時間兒少的狀況恐怕會有很大的變化，也可能會造成非常的危險，而且對於收案的逆境社工來說，恐怕也沒有權蒐集到相關的資訊可以協助他去聯繫、處遇，本來是要派案由社工去處理嘛，而且沒有任何資源可以提供兒少協助，只能被動地接受這樣的狀況，甚至未開案的結案指標設計，部分單位因為失蹤兒少案家服務指引的規定，就變相認定如果一個月內找不到人，沒有辦法完成調查評估的話，就逕自結案了，有縣市是這樣做的耶，等個案出現時並不會重啟調查，尚須持續再通報，且順利在一個月內找到人的才能真正的做調查評估與後續的處遇介入，所以這部分我認為需要請次長去協助檢視跟精進各縣市執行時間的個案管理流程跟結案指標，這個可以承諾做到嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，非常感謝委員剛剛所點出的這些問題，我覺得這個如果超過三個月，確實會有空缺……"],["林委員月琴：對，你看有的快到一週，有的是事實上要到三個月，我覺得這落差真的很大。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：甚至有的一個月找不到人就結案，有的是找不到人三個月才結案，各縣市的作法不太一樣。"],["呂次長建德：瞭解。"],["林委員月琴：最後，我上次也有提到兒少精神醫療資源的問題，法務部也很誠實的回復我，目前的困境在於我們醫師員額的稀缺，導致目前合作的健保特約醫療院所無法真正讓所有矯正學校能夠全面配置專科門診，所以想問署長，這部分矯正署後續打算要怎麼處理？"],["周署長輝煌：我們會跟衛福部隨時做溝通聯繫，並儘量去做改善，以保障這些少年的權益。"],["林委員月琴：目前衛福部也有推動「嚴重情緒行為身心障礙者精神醫療就醫障礙改善計畫」，我知道今天心健司的專委也有來，也麻煩你們提出書面報告，說明目前跟矯正學校合作的整個配合狀況是什麼，是不是有做外展服務以及目前的推動進度。","最後，當然就是我對於少年輔導服務的主張，第一個是可不可以完善各校訪視機制？上次已經有質詢過，有沒有一個明確的流程跟配套，提供少年跟家庭處遇工作的具體支持？否則一旦他出了社區，從高結構走到低結構的話，沒有辦法讓社工在社區接得住小孩，我覺得藥頭跟幫派比我們搶小孩搶得更快。第二個是全面檢視跟精進各地方政府處理失蹤兒少的個案管理流程跟結案指標設計，這就要麻煩次長了。第三個是快速布建兒少精神醫療資源，加強跨單位的合作，這就要再麻煩兩位了，請問兩個單位是不是在兩週內都可以給我書面報告？"],["呂次長建德：委員，我們回去會趕快準備，然後提供給委員。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝次長、謝謝署長。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828621f43aa59702ce35e54a9d835821946ec695a437ff13aed3678eecdf53964765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:20:02 - 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主席 在場的委員先進列席的政務機關事長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請行政院主計總署陳主計長 財政部莊部長和負責署的宋署長宋署長"},{"start":31.365,"end":57.959,"text":"委員好主計長好 部長好 署長好來 先請教主計長是主計長去年 省今年 今年的中央政府總預算被刪了多少錢兩千零七十六億兩千零七十六億 是你刪的嗎不是是立法院刪的嗎是是立法院刪的 你有沒有刪中央政府總預算沒有沒有 好今天我的體重是七十三公斤那今天如果有人要求我減重十公斤那你覺得我怎麼減最快"},{"start":59.893,"end":88.021,"text":"我的頭剛好10公斤頭剁掉就減了10公斤可以這樣嗎應該不會嘛你會從哪裡減脂肪多的地方減嘛對不對好假如我73公斤要我減10公斤那請問一下目前地方政府的財政有沒有餘裕目前情況都已經好轉好轉了我看到的說有剩餘那是這幾個地方政府剩餘都一樣多嗎還是有的剩的多有的剩的少還是有的甚至還不夠"},{"start":89.643,"end":103.385,"text":"一般是直轄市是剩比較多直轄市剩的多因為它本身分配的一個統籌分配稅也比較多那屏東縣呢 屏東縣剩很多嗎屏東縣沒有屏東縣沒有剩很多啦 剩的還不夠啦"},{"start":104.195,"end":120.445,"text":"所以今天如果說來我們看一下今天三減預算的提案是台灣民眾黨黨團中國國民黨黨團他的提案文寫得很清楚三減總數如果未達939億7500萬利於補足叫行政院自己調整"},{"start":120.945,"end":133.908,"text":"因為我叫你減10公斤3公斤從屁股的肥肉減其他7公斤你自己看著辦那你是不是要從你會剁頭剁腳剁手嗎不會嘛你會從脂肪剁肉減嘛那地方政府也有剩餘但是我今天要問的是說這636億你們同樣的都減25%這對於"},{"start":140.374,"end":164.885,"text":"財政 地方財政剩餘比較少的 甚至不足的 不公平你覺得有沒有這樣的感覺是 這個我們會檢討很好 那我們要看那現在呢 剛剛有人在一直問 下一頁今天什麼時候 藍白統三了 今年1月21嘛 是不是然後呢 行政院有沒有覺得不可行 有沒有 有有沒有提出呼籲有 我們熱愛自愛難行3月12提出呼籲嘛"},{"start":167.13,"end":188.445,"text":"好 那麼 副議有沒有通過沒有通過副議沒有通過那剛剛有人一直在提到地方財政收支劃分法你知道現在新版的財劃法什麼時候公告通過的嗎3月263月26中午公布實施嘛3月21嘛是不是在副議遭否決之後"},{"start":190.003,"end":218.552,"text":"所以這些情況裁判法在我們中央政府的預算要求你們自行調整636億之後才通過的裁判法並沒有適用今年度的中央政府總預算 是不是這樣好 那解放民進黨在5月26號提出申請釋憲然後呢 院長在5月26號提出說或許可以追加預算那麼憲法法庭也受理了這個釋憲案如果行政院沒有提追加預算或立法院多數黨團不願意提通過追加預算"},{"start":219.392,"end":233.001,"text":"那你覺得視線是不是有一個機會是,我們也是希望能夠經過視線來做一個修正所以我要簡單講,就幾分鐘而已啦這個就是,如果說藍白的國會多數不願意來提最佳預算"},{"start":234.582,"end":261.074,"text":"不願意來接受提最佳預算我要強調一次喔 憲法規定啊立法院是不能為增加支出制決議的立法院不能提出要行政院提最佳預算但是如果最佳預算行政院沒有提我們就看事件了嘛 對不對好 往下看來 我問了一個問題 來謝謝陳主席長 我們現在問部長部長 我就要關心重大的事情啊美國的繡改新制偉大美利法案 他說什麼從美國匯款到境外的資金要匯款稅 有沒有聽過"},{"start":263.924,"end":278.236,"text":"最近有注意到這個問題但是這個法案目前沒有說明非美國公民或他美國人在美的合法投資後的資金會出會不會被剋有沒有這個部分我覺得詳細的細節還是要有在觀察但是要注意往下看現在台積電"},{"start":279.574,"end":295.652,"text":"台積電是在台灣上市的公司國際資金來這邊買他的股票他把資金當中1650億他去美國投資設了美國廠美國廠賣了晶片在美國市場賣了晶片賺了錢現在他的這個錢資本利得到匯回台灣來按照這樣的美利偉大的法案會不會被扣5%的匯款稅"},{"start":298.815,"end":305.419,"text":"有沒有可能這個部分我還是跟委員報告要看他們這個稅的詳細內容來講現在還有個899更可怕他說什麼他說這個當中還有報復性的稅要報復誰報復這些這些這些好對象是什麼各國的政府央行對不對外匯存底美元官方機構主權基金還有銀行授權業"},{"start":326.124,"end":344.799,"text":"他怎麼說 課稅的範圍 外資在美國的營業利得他的鼓勵或公司在的債息 會出的都含含在內還有稅率會達到20% 從5%開始他這邊提到一個對美國實施不公平租稅的歧視性外國什麼是歧視性外國 他說全球企業最低稅負 好往下看"},{"start":346.104,"end":364.57,"text":"目前台灣有考慮基本稅額的條例的第八條有沒有考慮我們的實施全球企業最低稅負這個部分當然在我們裡面有一個提案我們會已經送行進院一旦台灣做了這個事情台灣是不是就是實施這個八九九當中歧視性的國家"},{"start":372.413,"end":395.098,"text":"沒有,應該也沒有,對是不是?如果我們實施了,就是他的嘛他說的歧視性外國嘛,899嘛,沒有宋組長為什麼不是?往上跳並沒有,對再往上跳,有沒有?還沒有如果他說對美國實施不公平的租稅的實境外國包括什麼?實施全球企業最低稅務,就寫在這裡啊台灣一旦實施了全球最低稅務制就是美國嚴重的歧視性外國,就要用899啊宋組長,你怎麼說?"},{"start":398.61,"end":417.115,"text":"報告委員,在他899裡面所稱的歧視性的待遇,所謂的DST我們叫社會服務稅,另外一個叫全球最低稅負制,並不是全部的全球最低稅負制所以說還要看觀察他的基本的內容,但是有可能會被美國視為是歧視性的外國你希望他不要?"},{"start":419.255,"end":440.321,"text":"但是你不知道他會不會據我們了解基本上是問美國的一些專家你問過川普我再來聽你的建議啦好來我們看一下如果按照這個莊部長如果中央銀行把我們的外匯存底在美國去持有美債還有我們授權公司到美國的投資收益根據899他要把這個錢匯回來台灣會不會遇到899的問題"},{"start":444.938,"end":471.9,"text":"我覺得這個部分還是要看最後他的界定如何以及我們實際的資金的一個情形好 你說他要看 我再往上跳真的 還要再往上好 來 再看一次899說什麼課稅對象 外國政府 包括央行官方機構 包括主權基金日本農林中央金庫退休基金 包括什麼瑞典 挪威退休基金 勞退基金金融單位 銀行 保險公司公司企業 台積電寫得清清楚楚啊"},{"start":472.95,"end":496.043,"text":"到底有沒有細節怎麼樣我們很擔心啊部長你了解我們的擔心嗎台灣有沒有實施他所認定的全國最低全球企業最低稅務資也不知道台灣現在目前來說適用的我們在實施的AMT還沒有到GMT的那個階段你認為還沒到GMT我們事實上還沒有到那個階段你可以跟我們全國現在關心這個課題的企業說明一下我們還沒有"},{"start":498.024,"end":526.3,"text":"我們再逐步的再來看全球實施的一個情形台灣現在是多少 12到15嘛如果到達15了就是了嘛對不對15的還是AMT的這個部分未來的GMT我們會看其他國家實施的情形來推動剛剛有講到主權基金嘛最近我們政府有一個政策要再推動要再構思"},{"start":527.15,"end":530.738,"text":"主權基金嘛 是主權基金在不在899的含色範圍內"},{"start":531.67,"end":556.685,"text":"第一個主權基金目前政策的方向是這樣但詳細的一個規劃目前來說還有國發會在邀請相關的部會在討論當中妳是不是相關部會之一財政部是妳是不是管稅務的主管機關財政部目前來說先就主權基金設立的話妳是管稅務的主管機關嗎她的裁員我們先討論裁員我不是說妳裁員我說妳是中華民國政府負責主管財稅的機關那當然稅務的負責你當然了解美國政府的財稅機關的思考"},{"start":558.346,"end":576.843,"text":"所以財政部的意見非常重要如果說我們國家建立主權基金根據這個899我們的主權基金的操作不是說一定要到美國不可啦但是主權基金如果是在投資的對象在美國"},{"start":578.51,"end":597.348,"text":"那麼899條款我們主權基金在美國投資賺了錢怎麼拿回來對 也就是說未來主權基金的操作我們當然要去觀察899條款的一個適用的情形那要去評估在那裡做這樣的主權基金的投資以及它的一個財務的操作適不適當以及在賦稅上的負擔"},{"start":598.749,"end":612.556,"text":"所以你要告訴軍管會我們的受險業大部分的部位在海外很多都買美債是不是是有買美債的是有對 買美國公司債萬一這些受險的海外部位受到八九九影響"},{"start":613.761,"end":630.543,"text":"財政部要不要提早預警當然我們要去了解899實質的一個內容以及影響在哪個方向所以我剛剛開玩笑我說宋署長我說你是沒有跟川普通過電話如果你跟他通過電話你今天也不在這裡財政部長請評估美國稅改新案"},{"start":631.324,"end":640.088,"text":"偉大美麗法案對我國的影響、幅度以及嚴厲降低衝擊的方案一個月來本委員會提出一個書面報告,可以嗎?好,我們盡快先提供好,謝謝謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時20分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請行政院主計總處陳主計長、財政部莊部長及賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：主計長、莊部長、宋署長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計長好、部長好、署長好。先請教主計長，主計長，今年的中央政府總預算被刪了多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：2,076億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：2,076億是你刪的嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是立法院刪的嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是立法院刪的，你有沒有刪中央政府總預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，今天我的體重是73公斤，今天如果有人要求我減重10公斤，你覺得我怎麼減最快？我的頭剛好10公斤，頭剁掉就減了10公斤，可以這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該不會嘛！你會從哪裡減？從脂肪多的地方減嘛！對不對？好，假如我73公斤要我減10公斤，請問一下，目前地方政府的財政有沒有餘裕？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前情況都已經好轉。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好轉了，我看到的說有賸餘。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是這幾個地方政府賸餘都一樣多嗎？還是有的賸的多，有的賸的少，還是有的甚至還不夠？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般是直轄市賸比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：直轄市賸的多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它本身分配的統籌分配稅也比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那屏東縣呢？屏東縣有賸很多嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：屏東縣沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：屏東縣沒有賸很多啦！甚至還不夠啦！所以今天刪減預算的提案是台灣民眾黨黨團、中國國民黨黨團，它的提案文寫得很清楚，刪減總數如果未達939億7,500萬，另予補足，叫行政院自己調整，例如我叫你減10公斤，3公斤從屁股的肥肉減，其他7公斤你自己看著辦，那你是不是要從……你會剁頭、剁腳、剁手嗎？不會嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你會從脂肪多的地方減嘛！那地方政府也有賸餘，但是我今天要問的是這636億你們同樣的都減25%，這對於地方財政賸餘比較少的、甚至不足的不公平，你覺得有沒有這樣的感覺？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個我們會檢討，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，那我們往下看，剛剛有人一直問，今天什麼時候藍、白統刪的？今年1月21日嘛！是不是？然後行政院有沒有覺得不可行，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有提出覆議？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，我們認為窒礙難行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3月12日提出覆議嘛！好，那麼覆議有沒有通過？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有通過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：覆議沒有通過，那剛剛有人一直提到地方財政收支劃分法，你知道現在新版的財劃法什麼時候公告通過的嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：3月26日。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3月26日總統公布實施嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：3月21日。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3月21日嘛！是不是在覆議遭否決之後？所以這些情況，財劃法在中央政府的預算被刪了，要求你們自行調整636億之後才通過的財劃法並沒有適用今年度的中央政府總預算，是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那解方，民進黨在5月15日提出申請釋憲，然後院長在5月26日提出或許可以追加預算，那麼憲法法庭也受理了這個釋憲案，如果行政院沒有提追加預算，或立法院多數黨團不願意通過追加預算，那你覺得釋憲是不是有一個機會？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們也是希望能夠經過釋憲來做修正。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。所以我簡單講，就幾分鐘而已，如果說藍白的國會多數不願意接受提追加預算，我要強調一次，憲法規定立法院是不能為增加支出之決議的，立法院不能提出要行政院提追加預算，但是如果追加預算行政院沒有提，我們就看釋憲了嘛！對不對？我要問另外一個部分，謝謝陳主計長，我們現在問部長。","部長，我們來關心重大的事情，美國的稅改新制「偉大美麗法案」說什麼？從美國匯款到境外的資金要匯款稅，有沒有聽過？有沒有注意？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，這個部分最近有注意到這個議題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有注意到，但是這個法案目前沒有說明非美國公民或美國人在美的合法投資後資金匯出會不會被課，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我覺得詳細的細節還是要具體的內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還要有待觀察，但是要注意。往下看，現在台積電是在臺灣上市的公司，國際資金來這邊買它的股票，它把資金當中1,650億拿去美國投資設了美國廠，美國廠在美國的市場賣了晶片賺了錢，現在它的這個錢、資本利得要匯回臺灣來，按照這樣的美麗偉大法案會不會被課5%匯款稅？有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我還是跟委員報告，要看他們稅的詳細內容來談。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但很有可能就是這樣。現在還有個第899條款更可怕，它說什麼？它說這當中還有報復性的稅收，報復誰？報復這些、這些、這些，對象是什麼？各國的政府（央行）、外匯存底（美元）、官方機構（主權基金），還有銀行、壽險業，它怎麼說？課稅的範圍是外資在美國的營業利得、股利或公司債債息匯出的都涵蓋在內，還有稅率從5%開始，會達到20%，它也提到對美國實施不公平租稅的歧視性外國，什麼是歧視性外國？它說全球企業最低稅負的國家。目前臺灣所得基本稅額條例第八條有沒有考慮實施全球企業最低稅負制？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分當然在我們裡面有一個提案，我們已經送行政院……"],["鍾委員佳濱：從12%？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，12%調整到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一旦臺灣做了這件事情……"],["莊部長翠雲：15%，也就是跨國企業的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一旦做了這個事情，臺灣是不是就是實施第899條款當中歧視性的國家？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，應該也沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果我們實施了就是它說的歧視性外國嘛！第899條款嘛？"],["宋署長秀玲：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：宋署長，為什麼不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：並沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果它說對美國實施不公平租稅的歧視性外國，包括什麼？實施全球企業最低稅負……就寫在這裡啊！臺灣一旦實施全球最低稅負制，就是美國眼中的歧視性外國，就要用第899條款啊！宋署長，你怎麼說？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，在第899條款裡面所稱的歧視性待遇所謂包含DSG，我們叫數位服務稅，另外一個叫全球最低稅負制，並不是全部的全球最低稅負制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說還要再觀察它的具體內容。"],["宋署長秀玲：對，還要看它適用哪一種。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有可能會被美國視為是歧視性的外國。"],["宋署長秀玲：但是它基本上對我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你希望它不要，但是你不知道它會不會。"],["宋署長秀玲：據我們了解，基本上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你跟誰了解？你有打去問川普嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：是問美國的一些專家，他說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果你問過川普，我再來聽你的建議啦！"],["宋署長秀玲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果按照這個，莊部長，如果中央銀行把我們的外匯存底在美國持有美債，還有我們壽險公司到美國的投資收益，根據第899條款，它要把這個錢匯回來臺灣會不會遇到第899條款的問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得這個部分還是要看最後它的界定如何，以及我們實際的資金情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你說還要看，再看一次第899條款說什麼？課稅對象，外國政府包括央行、官方機構包括主權基金、日本農林中央金庫、退休基金包括瑞典、挪威退休基金、勞退基金、金融單位、銀行、保險公司、公司企業（如台積電）等寫得清清楚楚啊！到底有沒有？細節怎麼樣？我們很擔心啊！部長，你了解我們的擔心嗎？臺灣有沒有實施它所認定的全球企業最低稅負制也不知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：臺灣目前來說適用的，我們實施的AMT還沒有到GMT的階段。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為還沒到GMT？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們事實上還沒有到那個階段。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可以跟全國現在關心這個課題的企業說明一下我們還沒有。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再逐步的來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：逐步的要達到了？"],["莊部長翠雲：看全球實施的情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺灣現在是多少？12%到15%嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果到達15%就是了嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：15%還是只有AMT的部分，未來的GMT我們會看其他國家實施的情形來推動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現在這幾個題目要再請教一下，剛剛有講到主權基金嘛！最近我們政府有一個政策要推動、要構思，主權基金嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主權基金在不在第899條款的涵攝範圍內？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，主權基金目前的政策方向是這樣，但詳細的規劃目前來說還由國發會在邀集相關的部會討論當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是不是相關部會之一？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是不是管稅賦的主管機關？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部目前來說，先就主權基金設立的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是管稅賦的主管機關嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：它的財源，我們先討論財源籌措……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是問你財源，我說你是中華民國政府負責主管財稅的機關嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然稅務的部分是我們。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你當然了解美國政府財稅機關的思考嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們要去了解這個部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們署長說他跟川普通過電話嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：以及稅賦在未來在主權基金操作上會有什麼樣的影響。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以財政部的意見非常重要，如果說未來我們國家建立主權基金，根據第899條款，我們主權基金的操作不是說一定要到美國不可啦！但是主權基金如果投資的對象在美國，那麼第899條款，我們主權基金在美國投資賺的錢怎麼拿回來？"],["莊部長翠雲：也就是說未來主權基金的操作，我們當然要去觀察第899條款的適用情形，要去評估在那裡做這樣的主權基金投資及財務操作適不適當，以及在賦稅上的負擔。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你要告訴金管會，我們的壽險業大部分的部位在海外，很多都買美債，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是有買美債的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，買公司債，萬一這些壽險的海外部位受到899條款影響，財政部要不要提早預警？要不要跟金管會講？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，我們要去了解899條款實質的內容以及影響在哪個方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。所以我剛剛開玩笑，我說：宋署長，你是沒有跟川普通過電話，如果你跟他通過電話，你今天也不會在這裡。財政部長請評估美國稅改新案「偉大美麗法案」對我國的影響幅度以及研議降低衝擊的方案，一個月內給本委員會提出一個書面報告，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們儘快提供。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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黃雲勳的部分所以我們相關的一些交通用地這些都是在我們這次基本設施內"},{"start":220.945,"end":242.861,"text":"因為現在大家也很在擔憂未來會不會有內湖科學園區一樣的問題就是交通上的一個影響所以像這些都是我們現在在這次有關一般補助款裡面納入的一個內容但是另外我也想要跟委員報告一下因為我們大家覺得在地方上很不解的是說像這我手上的是"},{"start":243.981,"end":259.905,"text":"我看到是總統令在今年的3月21號公布中華民國114年度中央政府總預算裡面我們看到第26款直轄市及縣市政府第一項直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2501億元照列"},{"start":263.906,"end":281.184,"text":"也就是呢 今天從地方政府上看起來就是立法院是分文未刪啊 完全照列所以我們當然覺得說請問你那個 這一底的 我們的一般補助款在台北市議會通過沒有"},{"start":282.105,"end":294.151,"text":"通過了一毛錢沒有刪去年8月31號沒有 是我們事是不是一毛錢沒有刪當然一毛都沒刪而且我們現在都已經拒以執行中好 來來來 請就署記者"},{"start":298.411,"end":320.959,"text":"其實主席長你是好人啦不過好人有時候不一定做了對的事像你這個事到底雙重違法第一個我們經過立法院通過的預算它就是法律叫措施性法律然後你說你還釋憲"},{"start":322.898,"end":341.98,"text":"那你請什麼用呢 如果你說實現了 所以我就不理他那這樣子你這個請的不能用 你現在請的在用嗎你請的在用 第一個你這個全數通過 而且地方議會每一個議會也都通過了你到底的是侵犯了立法權"},{"start":343.103,"end":369.928,"text":"我們通過了,這是我們的職權我們通過了預算一般補助款一毛錢都沒有刪結果你大大一括要刪636億第二個,財務法30條第三項也是講到了不能比去年少你也是這樣刪所以到底的你是筷子手你違兩個法一個就是我們立法院通過的措施性法律一個就是財務法"},{"start":371.528,"end":393.962,"text":"主席長你要不要解釋一下你這邊來我要講一下喔這個剛才副市長講的你刪了哪些他講的長照所以我們看到這個過去的謠言都說我們刪長照對不起我們問了衛福部的市長一毛錢都沒刪結果他們沒有刪你刪了"},{"start":395.783,"end":420.072,"text":"你刪了 我也沒有刪了 是你刪地方的長照所以你刪了是什麼 老的 小的 身障的 社會福利還有交通設施 無障礙的設施 比如說啟明學校 啟中學校這些都是非常弱勢的 你專門殺弱勢的難怪啊 主席長 你有內法的 你要不要解釋一下"},{"start":421.099,"end":447.951,"text":"報告委員我們這個3的部分就是說雖然你這個一般性補助你沒有寫說要3但是你有在那個3減的裡面要我們自行3減636我通過了嗎對通過要3減636要我們自行3減636但是636我們3減的部分我們是表示是有困難因為我們前面已經3減了你不要混淆大家了我們原來就有統3"},{"start":449.512,"end":473.945,"text":"我們就刪了300多億但是有一個636是沒有指定刪減的但是基本上就是原來統算的那幾項沒有那幾項中央的單位那幾項縱使再刪我們是沒辦法承受業務根本沒辦法進行所以這個部分再刪的部分只能刪到國防外交和教育那這三項我們都不能刪所以只能不得不要刪減一般性補助我們都鼓勵你了"},{"start":475.806,"end":502.526,"text":"而且台北市我再跟您報告台北市它經過刪減以後它還比去年增加82億所以台北市本身的財源就是非常的好護士長講一下說你刪的比以前多護士長講一下是跟我們報告事實上大家都這麼認為但事實上以今年來講我們如果是用統籌分配稅款加上補助的部分台北市是六都裡面排名第五名"},{"start":503.789,"end":525.422,"text":"這個啦 大家都希望來我講一下給大家科普 也不是科普嘛中央給地方就三筆錢第一個 統總額稅款第二個 一般性補助款第三個 計畫型補助款一定要這三個加起來一起看六都裡面 台北市永遠都是第四名 第五名"},{"start":526.723,"end":554.624,"text":"很簡單 因為它是台北市因為它是台北市這就是這樣啊 大小園啊 老公宅啊所以這個主地產不能夠只有挑一項來講啊台北市它是排第二 並不是排第五喔我們把三項合起來 它是排第二喔那是你講的 來來來 我們副市長你第二 你講第五呢是 報告一下 我們一百四年的部分是總共八百六十億元 六都排名第五第五啦"},{"start":555.244,"end":562.409,"text":"所以今年是第五 去年是第四因為我們這邊數字是顯示第二喔不是第五喔解救辦法"},{"start":576.178,"end":592.853,"text":"我們現在這個左院長實在很厲害啦要給他刪636你就等於哪個人來勒索反正地方政府的補助款大家一定心痛好 再追加預算啊這結果是什麼結果就是沒有刪到這636啊 636跑掉了Let's go"},{"start":596.857,"end":615.742,"text":"昨天636有夠厲害的 滿天過來的刪掉補掉 所以你63636啊因為縱使要辦追加也必須要符合追加的條件才有辦法追加你現在用這個來恐慌我們這是沒辦法做的一步主席長 這樣字字不厚道啦 把636吃掉了"},{"start":624.824,"end":636.056,"text":"不落道 而且傷及地方的這些老的小的基礎的可憐啊這個 小心喔 換完先不來喔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":292,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時9分）謝謝，主席。有請臺北市的林奕華副市長以及主計長。"],["主席：有請臺北市林副市長，還有主計長，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：首先請教副市長。"],["林副市長奕華：是，委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：現在砍了地方的補助款，臺北市到底砍掉哪些東西？"],["林副市長奕華：好，要非常感謝召委有機會讓我們能夠來到財政委員會表達這次行政院突然刪減地方政府一般性補助款對我們的衝擊，以及要表達反對之意，在這邊要先報告一下我們所影響的部分，我有做一個表格，也就是關於我們所有被刪減的部分，社會福利支出被刪掉27.6%，教育被刪掉38.9%，基本設施被刪掉27.4%，還有補助地方政府統籌運用財源被刪掉59.5%，當中社福是大家最關注的，我們都知道這裡面跟兒少、老人、弱勢或是婦女相關的預算很多，像大家看到的由地方政府配置優先辦理項目，第一個是兒少、婦女、老人及身障福利支出，跟委員報告，包括老人的收容安置、長照的服務，還有像社會局委託民間單位辦理老人服務的相關方案，比如老人日照、老人服務中心，以及……"],["賴委員士葆：我打岔一下，所以三道的長照是不是？"],["林副市長奕華：對，還有老人健保自付額的補助，以及重陽敬老金，還有鼓勵大家生育的孕婦好孕2U乘車補助，另外還有包括五歲以下育兒津貼、兒童托育補助、委託收容及危機家庭兒童的托育補助等等。另外也要跟委員報告，有些是屬於硬體設施，這些硬體設施事實上都是有關於兒少、婦幼受暴者的收容安置、長者的關懷據點、日照中心等等，這在社會局主管支出的部分也一樣都會受到相關的衝擊。再者，在基本設施的部分，大家都知道臺北市這幾年致力於一件事情，這也是中央要求要洗刷人行地獄這樣的不好聲譽，所以我們也花了大量的錢，希望能夠做人行道的改善工程、道路改善及維護工程，而這次基本設施也受到相關的衝擊。"],["賴委員士葆：你這裡提到北士科，所以會影響到北士科，這個要不要講一下？"],["林副市長奕華：像北士科的部分，當然目前大家知道像NVIDIA可能會進到北士科來……"],["賴委員士葆：黃仁勳。"],["林副市長奕華：對，就是黃仁勳的部分，所以相關的一些交通用地，這些都是在我們這次有關於基本設施……"],["賴委員士葆：所以弄得不好黃仁勳就不來嗎？"],["林副市長奕華：因為現在大家也很擔憂未來會不會有像內湖科學園區一樣的問題，也就是交通上的影響，像這些都是這次一般性補助款納入的內容。","另外我也想要跟委員報告一下，地方上很不解的是，我們看到總統令在今年3月21號公布中華民國114年度中央政府總預算裡面，我們看到第二十六款「直轄市及縣市政府」第一項直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2兆5,001億元照列，也就是從地方政府看起來立法院分文未刪、完全照列，所以我們當然覺得……"],["賴委員士葆：請問這筆一般性補助款在臺北市議會通過沒有？"],["林副市長奕華：通過了，所以要跟委員報告我們……"],["賴委員士葆：一毛錢都沒有刪？"],["林副市長奕華：去年8月31號告訴我們……"],["賴委員士葆：是不是一毛錢都沒有刪？"],["林副市長奕華：當然一毛都沒刪，而且我們現在都已經據以執行中。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我請教主計長，其實主計長你是好人，不過好人有時候不一定做了對的事，像你這個就是道地雙重違法，第一個，經過立法院通過的預算就是法律，叫措施性法律，然後你說你還要釋憲，那你錢怎麼用呢？如果你說釋憲了，所以我就不理他，這樣子錢就不能用啊！但現在錢都在用啊！這是全數通過，而且每一個地方議會也都通過了，所以這是道地的侵犯了立法權，我們通過了，這是我們的職權，我們通過的預算，一般性補助款一毛錢都沒有刪，結果你大刀一揮要刪636億。第二個，財劃法第三十條第三項也講到不能比去年少，但你也是這樣刪，所以你是道地的劊子手，你違兩個法，第一個是立法院通過的措施性法律，另外一個是財劃法。主計長，你要不要解釋一下？根據剛才副市長講的，你刪了哪些？他講到長照，所以過去的謠言都說我們刪長照，對不起，我們問了衛福部的次長，其實是一毛錢都沒刪，結果他們沒有刪，你卻刪了！我們沒有刪，是你刪地方的長照，所以你刪的是什麼？老的、小的、身障的社會福利，還有無障礙交通設施，比如啟明學校、啟聰學校，這些都是非常弱勢的，你專門殺弱勢的，難過啊！主計長，你違法連連，你要不要解釋一下？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我們刪的部分就是雖然一般性補助你沒有寫說要刪，但是在刪減的金額裡面要我們自行刪減636億……"],["賴委員士葆：我們通過了啊！我們已經通過了啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，通過的是要我們自行刪減636億，針對刪減636億的部分，我們表示有困難，因為我們前面已經刪減……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要混淆大家了！我們原來就有統刪，我們只有刪了三百多億。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是有一筆636億是沒有指定刪減的。"],["賴委員士葆：但是基本上就是原來統刪的那幾項。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，那幾項……"],["賴委員士葆：中央的單位……"],["陳主計長淑姿：縱使刪那幾項，我們也沒辦法承受，業務根本沒辦法進行，所以再刪的部分只能刪到國防、外交和教育，但這三項我們都不能刪，所以不得不刪減一般性補助款……"],["賴委員士葆：我們都鼓勵你了啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再跟您報告，臺北市經過刪減以後，還比去年增加82億，所以臺北市本身的財源就是非常的好……"],["賴委員士葆：副市長來講一下，他說你們刪減以後都還比以前富有，副市長講一下。"],["林副市長奕華：跟委員報告，雖然大家都這麼認為，但事實上，以今年來講，如果是用統籌分配稅款加上補助的部分，臺北市在六都裡面是排名第五名。"],["賴委員士葆：我講一下，不過這也不是對大家科普啦！中央給地方就三筆錢：第一個是統籌分配稅款，第二個是一般性補助款，第三個是計畫型補助款，一定要這三個加起來一起看，六都裡面臺北市永遠都是第四名、第五名，很簡單，因為它是臺北市，現在就是這樣啊！大小眼啊！這個大家都知道。所以主計長你不能只挑一項來講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：臺北市是排第二，並不是排第五喔！我們把三項合起來，它是排第二，不是排第五……"],["賴委員士葆：那是你講的！","副市長，他說你們是第二，你卻說是第五。"],["林副市長奕華：我來報告一下，我們114年總共是860億元，六都排名第五；去年是842億，六都排名第四，所以今年是第五，去年是第四。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦，就是這樣，主計長你不要亂講。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們這邊的數字是顯示第二，不是第五。"],["賴委員士葆：你們這樣爭辯也沒辦法啦，我算的就是第四名或第五名，解救辦法……卓院長實在很厲害，要給他刪636億，就等於拿個人來勒索，反正地方政府的補助款大家一定心痛，只好再追加預算，這樣的結果是什麼？結果就是沒有刪到，636億就跑掉了，it's gone！有夠厲害，這叫瞞天過海啊！先刪掉再補掉，所以並沒有刪636億啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：縱使要辦追加，也必須符合追加的條件才有辦法追加，所以這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：你現在用這個來恐嚇我們，說這個……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是沒有辦法，這是沒辦法做的一個地步……"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，這樣子不厚道啦！把636億吃掉了不厚道，而且傷及地方老的、小的、基礎的，可憐啊！小心喔！黃仁勳不來喔！"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98285de2d8fe57b93477b8fa27110b4cf3b3ec695a437ff13aedfa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:05:25 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謝謝主席有請複密還有部長麻煩複密署長 部長委員長好 大家辛苦了大法官憲法法庭針對台灣沒有廢除死刑我們死刑是核限的這個解釋出來之後這段時間立法院司法法治委員會對於廢死的議題我們討論過非常多次"},{"start":37.222,"end":65.348,"text":"那我認為每一次的對話都非常的珍貴我們可以再透過我們的詢答清楚的讓社會知道台灣沒有非死死刑是核限的下一頁所以說113宪判8的結果是核限性的解釋但是要強化法律的程序跟制度的保障這些部分我已經論述過N次了我也相信台灣社會有更正確的認知下一頁"},{"start":66.86,"end":95.903,"text":"那立法院要做的是什麼呢跟行政部門要做的是什麼呢就是第一個要尊重憲法法庭的判決這第一件事沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面針對憲法所規定的解釋憲法的唯一權力就是司法院的憲法法庭所以沒有人可以來站在憲法法庭判決的對立面所以立法院行政部門要做的第一件事情就是要尊重憲法法庭"},{"start":96.263,"end":125.181,"text":"的結果而不是用任何方式要去推翻它去挑戰它所以我們要做的除了尊重之外就是要啟動必要的制度配套這是我們眼前另外一個要務不管是如何避免冤獄的產生如何來防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責而且來推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化我也講過N次這是我們立法委員跟行政部門的工作下頁所以說我們要修法"},{"start":126.602,"end":141.34,"text":"針對刑法 刑事訴訟法 法院組織法監獄刑刑 刑刑法我們要謹慎的來修法而在修法的過程持續不斷的跟社會溝通 跟人民對話所以這些都在進程當中嘛 對不對"},{"start":143.669,"end":158.237,"text":"所以我要說的是尊重憲法法庭的判決不要亂帶風向給社會不必要的錯誤認知立法委員要做的是做好我們的本業修法下一頁但是呢"},{"start":161.604,"end":180.595,"text":"在野黨要提出反廢死的公投消費公共議題為了他的政治目的公投要綁罷免這一頁PPT我也拿出來用過N次而當中選會認為在野黨所提出的兩個公投案一勝一負"},{"start":181.696,"end":208.048,"text":"有通過也有駁回不成立的這就代表中選會對於公投案行使本身合理不合理合法不合法一勝一負嘛所以合三言一公投是可以進行的但是反廢死公投因為這個違反公投法的規範中選會予以駁回在野黨的委員現在要對中選會提起行政訴訟"},{"start":209.639,"end":224.06,"text":"我們都尊重下一頁但是呢還是要說請把憲法讀好憲法78條的規定司法院有解釋憲法的唯一權利大法官釋字185號"},{"start":225.982,"end":240.696,"text":"憲法增修條文的12條還有公投法的第二條都要服從憲法的規定所以憲法的解釋等同於憲法公投並不能夠否決憲判複密是不是這樣"},{"start":245.148,"end":256.521,"text":"所以公投不能否決憲判那您認為現在在野黨的委員對於中選會要提起行政訴訟他們不服啊他們認為散費死的公投怎麼可以不成立呢要分享一下你的觀點"},{"start":259.433,"end":275.079,"text":"這個我們尊重那個委員他們職權的那個行使只是這個部分就是在那個除了委員剛剛所講的這些依據之外在那個限訴法38條第一項也有講就是憲法法院的那個判決呢還有拘束各機關跟人類的效力那各機關也有實現判決內容的義務"},{"start":278.28,"end":298.234,"text":"所以說在野黨委員所提的這個反廢死的公投我姑且不論他有沒有政治的目的要來救罷免來做政治動員我姑且不論他就是違法違憲嘛違反憲法違反大法官釋字的解釋違反公民投票法也違反憲法訴訟法嘛"},{"start":299.855,"end":327.645,"text":"所以說憲法解釋等同於憲法公投不能夠來否決憲判我要再一次清楚的透過我的質詢負責任的向所有的公民朋友來清楚的再次表達所以這些話我們早在在野黨執意推反廢死公投之前不聽民進黨的絕對沒問題民主不是一定要聽誰的但不聽民進黨的可以聽聽學者專家的意見吧"},{"start":329.489,"end":343.921,"text":"陳英前教授、蘇紫橋教授、林家和副教授都提出了在在野黨推出反廢死公投之前都已經提出警示了不要把公投當作綁裝的工具當作政治的操作"},{"start":345.126,"end":372.673,"text":"此行並未違憲而是設定了更嚴苛的標準不要用公投來推翻憲法法庭的解釋更是要凸顯立法院的提案公投沒有符合明確性的原則這就是為什麼中選會依法行政未來的行政訴訟我尊重在野黨但是我還是這一句話沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面下一頁"},{"start":374.793,"end":402.155,"text":"我進入我第二個主題最近吵得很夯喔大家知道苗博雅市議員那她以證人的身份去出庭針對柯文哲前市長的金華城案但是呢她作為依法院的宣就是傳喚她她依法去履行她的責任可是她去出庭前卻被民眾黨"},{"start":404.692,"end":413.722,"text":"鋪天蓋地的來進行抹黑攻擊也就是在開庭前公然的去騷擾攻擊證人這絕對是不應該在民主法治社會發生的事吧"},{"start":421.516,"end":438.362,"text":"如果有任何的證人在依法律的規定他去出庭傳喚來配合檢調的偵辦這是他公民的職責卻被惡意的攻擊騷擾怎麼辦 怎麼處理你們可以放任這種事情嗎"},{"start":453.271,"end":466.401,"text":"沒有辦法回答因為沒有人想像會有人發生這種事情對不對只是一個去出庭應訊的提供證言證詞的證人而已會被攻擊成這個程度而這一個政黨現在還要推法庭直播啊最愛妨礙司法公正的政黨"},{"start":477.661,"end":503.091,"text":"現在還打著透明公開用民粹的操作要去推法庭直播啊 下一頁而且很離譜的喔要修法院組織法已經進步二讀在5月23號換言之未來司法法治委員會沒有任何機會具體討論法院組織法針對法庭直播的合理性"},{"start":504.4,"end":513.063,"text":"正當性沒有辦法進行討論直接就在立法院要被透過表決來上路了你們以後就是要執行的人耶司法院跟法務部怎麼辦"},{"start":521.144,"end":534.009,"text":"法庭直播這件事情沒有委員會的充分討論直接淨附二讀而且我也可以預判表決前也不太有充分的發言的機會啦可能又被沒收了啦然後直接用表決"},{"start":535.543,"end":553.77,"text":"站在你們專業的司法人員 捍衛司法的獨立也一直在推動司法的透明公開的司法院跟法務部未來都是你們要執行的欸你們樂見這樣一個修法直接用禁覆二讀的方式直接被表決通過你們 這是你們最後可能以後沒有機會了一個月後就要表決了"},{"start":560.41,"end":574.909,"text":"那個報告委員那個司法院對這部分確實很疑慮因為在重大刑案就是譬如說是一項貪毒殺人這樣子的那個案件就是被害人跟鑑定人他們這個公開播送是無遠弗屆的他們"},{"start":575.37,"end":603.303,"text":"就是很容易會被那個肉搜或者是說被那個威脅那他們想到這個話他們就不敢到法庭那還有就是說可能那個有心人會利用這一種那個公開播送去製造輿論全民公審那這一些事情都是不利於就是公平審判就反而會去假透明公開之名來行使妨礙司法公正干預司法影響他獨立辦案"},{"start":604.503,"end":626.812,"text":"都會有這些負面的效果嘛那還有一點就是這個是比較難以防治的就是說你知道一公開播送之後這個資料你要怎麼收回跟那個管制這是很困難的那現在自媒體那個發達就是說這個影音可能當事人會惡意的那個剪輯然後再不到的這一些那個濫用那事實上這個以前我們都研議過就是說"},{"start":628.913,"end":649.945,"text":"2017年確實司改國是會議有這樣子的討論但是之所以這麼多年沒有辦法全面去推法庭直播就是因為學界跟實務界的意見分歧在下一頁我們即使沒有辦法去做到法庭直播這幾年來落實司法資訊的透明公開保障當事人的權益我們已經一再的在軟硬體去下手下一頁"},{"start":653.607,"end":669.375,"text":"所以這段時間法官協會2017年就已經說了公開審判不等於法庭直播一定要三思啊下一頁而2025年的法官協會很嚴正的聲明說法院不是流量的秀場"},{"start":670.416,"end":690.943,"text":"直播並不是提升司法公信力的解方反而會造成非常嚴重的副作用下一頁女法官協會也發出了聲明切莫不要透過表決直接讓這一個沒有社會公式沒有社會公式的法庭直播直接倉促的上路他需要配套下一頁"},{"start":693.906,"end":708.39,"text":"減輕減改也發生了只有中國只有專制獨裁的中國才全面推動事實審的法庭直播部長現在全世界事實審的法庭直播是不是只有中國應當是吧這個是北韓是嗎那一樣都是極權國家好我最後就以"},{"start":720.205,"end":743.327,"text":"只有中國在推動事實審的法庭直播因為在司法欠缺獨立審判的中國他透過這種公審就是一種公審的大秀他可以利用司法的公審大秀來做到他的政治目的他能夠用此來恫嚇人民進行政治宣傳所以說"},{"start":744.568,"end":753.608,"text":"台灣要向中國學習嗎?台灣要向毫無司法獨立審判的中國學習跟進嗎?"},{"start":755.68,"end":779.631,"text":"我希望未來我們還有機會好好討論法庭直播這個議題否則在5月23號已經禁覆二讀6月23號司法法治委員會委員會中心主義被沒收被踐踏我們這些專業的司法法治委員沒有機會在這裡就教於你們沒有辦法跟法界、實務界討論了直接就用表決來決定了我希望司法院跟法務部你們要站在你們能夠"},{"start":784.322,"end":802.216,"text":"擁有的倡議的力量去讓社會知道公開透明不是全程直播尤其在法院我們除了對於公共知的權利的公益權的捍衛我們更要確保訴訟當事人參與者他的權利你們真的我要提醒你們不要認為"},{"start":811.596,"end":812.076,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":656,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請副秘及部長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長、部長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦了。大法官憲法法庭針對臺灣沒有廢除死刑、死刑是合憲的解釋出來之後，這段時間立法院司法及法制委員會對於廢死的議題討論過非常多次，我認為每一次的對話都非常地珍貴，我們可以透過詢答清楚地讓社會知道臺灣沒有廢死、死刑是合憲的。所以113年憲判字第8號的結果是合憲性的解釋，但是要強化法律程序與制度保障，這些部分我已經論述過N次了，我也相信臺灣社會有更正確的認知。","立法院要做的是什麼呢？行政部門要做的是什麼呢？第一個，就是要尊重憲法法庭的判決，這是第一件事。沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面，針對憲法所規定的，解釋憲法的唯一權力就是司法院憲法法庭，沒有人可以站在憲法法庭判決的對立面。所以立法院、行政部門要做的第一件事情就是要尊重憲法法庭的結果，而不是用任何方式去推翻它、挑戰它。","我們要做的除了尊重之外，就是要啟動必要的制度配套，這是我們眼前另外一個要務，不管是如何避免冤獄的產生、如何防堵犯罪人逃避刑責、推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化，我也講過N次，這是我們立法委員跟行政部門的工作。所以我們要修法，針對刑法、刑事訴訟法、法院組織法、監獄行刑法謹慎地修法，而在修法的過程，要持續不斷地跟社會溝通、跟人民對話，這些都在進程當中，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：嗯。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。所以我要說的是，請尊重憲法法庭的判決，不要亂帶風向，給社會不必要的錯誤認知，立法委員要做的是做好我們的本業──修法。但是在野黨要提出反廢死的公投，消費公共議題，為了他的政治目的，公投要綁罷免，這頁PPT我也拿出來用過N次。而當中選會認為在野黨所提出的兩個公投案一勝一負，有通過，也有駁回、不成立的，這就代表中選會對於公投案行使本身合理與否、合法與否作出一勝一負的決定，所以核三延役公投是可以進行的，但是反廢死公投因為違反公投法的規範，中選會予以駁回。","在野黨的委員現在要對中選會提起行政訴訟，我們都尊重，但還是要說，請把憲法讀好，除了憲法第七十八條規定司法院有解釋憲法的唯一權力，還有大法官釋字第185號、憲法增修條文第十二條、公投法第二條，都規定要服從憲法的規定，所以憲法的解釋等同於憲法，公投並不能夠否決憲判，副秘，是不是這樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以公投不能否決憲判。您認為現在在野黨的委員對於中選會要提起行政訴訟，他們不服，他們認為反廢死的公投怎麼可以不成立呢？要不要分享一下你的觀點？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們尊重委員他們職權的行使，只是這個部分除了委員剛剛所講的這些依據之外，在憲訴法第三十八條第一項也有講，憲法法院的判決有拘束各機關跟人員的效力。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒錯。"],["王副秘書長梅英：各機關也有實現判決內容的義務。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以在野黨委員所提的反廢死公投，我姑且不論它有沒有政治的目的，要就罷免來做政治動員，但它就是違法、違憲，違反憲法、違反大法官解釋、違反公民投票法，也違反憲法訴訟法，所以憲法解釋等同於憲法，公投不能夠來否決憲判，我要再一次清楚的透過我的質詢，負責任的向所有公民朋友清楚的再次表達。","這些話我們早在在野黨執意推反廢死公投之前就說了，不聽民進黨的，絕對沒問題，民主不是一定要聽誰的，但不聽民進黨的，可以聽聽學者專家的意見吧！陳英鈐教授、蘇子喬教授、林佳和副教授在在野黨推出反廢死公投之前，都已經提出警示了，不要把公投當作綁樁的工具，當作政治的操作，死刑並未違憲，而是設定了更嚴苛的標準，不要用公投來推翻憲法法庭的解釋，更是要凸顯立法院的提案公投沒有符合明確性的原則，這就是為什麼中選會依法行政。未來的行政訴訟，我尊重在野黨，但是我還是這一句話，沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面。","進入我的第二個主題，最近吵得很夯，針對柯文哲前市長的京華城案，大家知道苗博雅市議員以證人的身分出庭，而法院傳喚他，他依法去履行他的責任，可是他在出庭前，卻被民眾黨鋪天蓋地進行抹黑、攻擊，也就是在開庭前公然的去騷擾、攻擊證人，這絕對不應該在民主法治社會發生的事吧！如果有任何的證人依法律的規定經傳喚出庭、配合檢調的偵辦，這是他公民的職責，卻被惡意的攻擊、騷擾，怎麼辦？怎麼處理？副秘，沒辦法嗎？你們可以放任這種事情嗎？沒有辦法回答，因為沒辦法想像會有人發生這種事情，對不對？只是一個去出庭應訊、提供證言、證詞的證人而已，會被攻擊成這個程度！而這一個政黨現在還要推法庭直播啊！最愛妨礙司法公正的政黨，現在還打著透明、公開，用民粹的操作要去推法庭直播啊！","而且很離譜的，還要修法院組織法，這已經逕付二讀，在5月23號。換言之，未來司法及法制委員會沒有任何機會具體討論法院組織法，針對法庭直播的合理性、正當性，沒有辦法進行討論，直接就在立法院透過表決來上路了，你們以後就是要執行的人，司法院跟法務部，怎麼辦？法庭直播這件事情，沒有委員會的充分討論，直接逕付二讀，而且我也可以預判，表決前也不太會有充分的發言機會，可能又被沒收了，然後直接用表決，站在你們司法人員的專業，捍衛司法的獨立，也一直在推動司法透明、公開的司法院跟法務部，未來這都是你們要執行的，你們樂見這樣一個修法嗎？直接用逕付二讀的方式，直接被表決通過，你們以後可能沒有機會了，因為一個月後就要表決了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，司法院對這部分確實很疑慮，因為在重大刑案譬如說貪瀆、殺人等案件，因為公開播送是無遠弗屆的，被害人跟鑑定人他們很容易會被肉搜，或者是被威脅，一想到這個，他們就不敢到法庭；還有，可能有心人士會利用這一種公開播送去製造輿論、全民公審，這一些事情都是不利於公平審判。"],["吳委員思瑤：反而就是會假透明、公開之名來行使妨礙司法公正、干預司法，影響他獨立辦案，都會有這些負面的效果。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。還有一點，而且這是比較難以防治的，就是只要一公開播送之後，這個資料要怎麼收回跟管制，是很困難的，現在自媒體很發達，影音的部分，可能經當事人會惡意的剪輯然後予以不當的濫用……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒有錯。"],["王副秘書長梅英：事實上，以前我們都研議過，就是說……"],["吳委員思瑤：2017年確實司改國是會議有這樣子的討論，但是之所以這麼多年沒有辦法全面去推法庭直播，就是因為學界跟實務界的意見分歧。","我們即使沒有辦法做到法庭直播，這幾年來落實司法資訊的透明、公開，保障當事人的權益，我們已經一再的就軟硬體去下手，所以這段時間以來，2017年法官協會就已經說了，公開審判不等於法庭直播，一定要三思啊！2025年法官協會很嚴正的聲明說，法院不是流量的秀場，直播並不是提升司法公信力的解方，反而會造成非常嚴重的副作用；女法官協會也發出了聲明，切莫、不要透過表決，直接讓這一個沒有社會共識的法庭直播倉促的上路，它是需要配套的；劍青檢改也發聲了，只有專制獨裁的中國，才會全面推動事實審的法庭直播。部長，現在全世界事實審的法庭直播，是不是只有中國？應當是吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["吳委員思瑤：北韓也是嗎？那一樣都是極權國家。","我最後就以只有中國在推動事實審的法庭直播來談，因為在司法欠缺獨立審判的中國，它透過這種公審，就是一種公審的大秀，它可以利用司法的公審大秀來達到它的政治目的，能夠用此來恫嚇人民，進行政治宣傳，所以臺灣要向中國學習嗎？臺灣要向毫無司法獨立審判的中國學習、跟進嗎？我希望未來我們還有機會好好討論法庭直播這個議題，否則在5月23號已經逕付二讀；6月23號，司法及法制委員會委員會中心主議被沒收、被踐踏，我們這些專業的司法及法制委員沒有機會在這裡就教於你們，沒有辦法跟法界、實務界討論了，直接就用表決來決定了。","我希望司法院跟法務部，你們要站在你們能夠擁有的倡議力量，去讓社會知道公開、透明不是全程直播，尤其在法院，我們除了對於公共知的權利的公益權的捍衛，我們更要確保訴訟當事人、參與者的權利。我要提醒你們，不要認為立法院表決是立法院的事，以後都是你們司法人員要來承受莫大的壓力，整個司法公正可能會受到莫大的影響跟癱瘓。不好意思，我占用多一點時間，只剩下一個月不到的時間，立法院就要強行表決了，絕對是非常serious的事情，我在這裡予以提醒，謝謝主席，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝。剛剛我跟衛福部呂次長要的那個東西，我那個時間講錯了，因為我們上個禮拜就發文給你們了，且我跟你們說兩個禮拜，兩個禮拜是從上個禮拜就起算，所以這禮拜要麻煩你們給我，因為那個資料應該不會很難，我們上週就發文過去了，再麻煩次長，謝謝次長。","我們現在依照剛剛的宣告，休息5分鐘。","休息（11時19分）","繼續開會（11時26分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下一位請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982812ab52d62148aeadb8fa27110b4cf3b3ec695a437ff13aed091ed520d06e93fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:55:22 - 11:05:17","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:55:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:05:17+08:00","duration":595,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.53659375,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.86096875,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.83909375,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.880968750000001,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.486593750000004,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.95846875,"end":62.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.586593750000006,"end":65.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.35409375,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.99534375,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.09659375000001,"end":96.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.85534375,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.40346875,"end":110.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.43971875000001,"end":185.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.41534375,"end":204.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.90159375000002,"end":209.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.61846875,"end":210.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.10784375,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.85034375,"end":297.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.99284375,"end":308.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.94471875,"end":309.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.72471875,"end":315.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.75409375000004,"end":380.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.04909375,"end":316.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.96721875000003,"end":401.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.98721875,"end":388.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.84159375,"end":407.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.47784375000003,"end":409.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.45221875000004,"end":418.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.29471875,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.03221875,"end":434.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.91659375,"end":442.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.66221875,"end":442.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.67909375000005,"end":446.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.71284375000005,"end":443.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.48846875000004,"end":456.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.59284375000004,"end":454.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.65159375,"end":468.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.61721875,"end":460.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.31221875000006,"end":468.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.34596875000005,"end":468.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.49784375,"end":470.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.99971875000006,"end":471.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.23159375000006,"end":501.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.16784375000003,"end":475.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.32784375000006,"end":476.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.68221875,"end":476.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.70221875000004,"end":484.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.49346875000003,"end":496.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.03284375000004,"end":513.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.2209687500001,"end":513.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.87471875,"end":513.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.97596875,"end":514.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.0265937500001,"end":515.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.0603437500001,"end":515.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.08971875,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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那我們會後會提出數據給委員好 那我這邊有整理一部分啦是以地方法院的數據來看 2015年132個罪次裡面 判死的佔3.8%無期徒刑17.4那有期徒刑平均判刑是149.35個月"},{"start":85.623,"end":107.462,"text":"那去年一到八月的數據死刑你知道是多少嗎?判多少個死刑?百分之多少?在所有罪次裡面我告訴你零啦 沒有啦那無期徒刑是19.4%啦有期徒刑平均判刑是140.41個月比如說"},{"start":111.516,"end":139.486,"text":"以2015跟去年的來對比的話判死的佔比從3.8降到0然後從無期徒刑是從17.4提高到19.4那有期徒刑的平均判刑是從149.35個月下降到140.41個月所以看到整體刑度實際上是下滑尤其是在死刑這個部分"},{"start":140.026,"end":159.696,"text":"事實上在台灣為什麼外面都說大家評價是實質廢死因為從比例跟數據來看他就是已經歸零實質廢死在判決的部分那當然每一個判刑要看每個個案而定也不能完全用平均數據來去解讀"},{"start":160.697,"end":184.226,"text":"不過整體趨勢來看的話就是殺人罪的刑度下降不只是判死的比例連刑期都是那這當然也是為什麼我剛剛前面講外界一直在批評說實質廢死的一個問題那我再想要請教那今天排審的是刑法286條就是虐待兒少致死罪"},{"start":186.482,"end":203.998,"text":"因為這十年來就2015到2024年只有一件無期徒刑那我想請問一下司法院針對這一個所謂的虐待兒少致死罪這幾年判處有期徒刑的平均刑度您知道是上升還是下降嗎"},{"start":207.086,"end":219.338,"text":"這部分我們手上沒有資料可以匯後提供我們這邊也調出一些數據那一樣是以地方法院數據來看的話2021年有期徒刑平均刑度是63.6個月"},{"start":222.481,"end":243.006,"text":"到2024年就剩下26個月雖然說刑法286的使用比例很低但從2015年到2024年10年總共只有57件平均一年5件多但在這近10年裡98件罪次裡無期徒刑1件"},{"start":243.846,"end":264.183,"text":"被判五年以上有期徒刑者18件 佔比不到兩成一年以下大概是53件 佔比是五成四那一樣也面對我剛剛前面講的問題就是說不管是地方法院判決 高等法院判決 最高法院判決那也看到觸犯虐待兒少致死的刑度都有在下降"},{"start":264.904,"end":280.38,"text":"那這就說外界為什麼會有一些覺得我們似乎整個國家法制對於兒童的保護並不周全你光從形式保障來看的話就外面就有人覺得說兒童是最脆弱的最需要保護的"},{"start":281.181,"end":309.74,"text":"但是在刑法來去所謂的遏止對於兒童的肆虐重大的一個傷害的這種情況實際上我們的保護相對來講從這個整個的判刑的一個刑度來看外界可能就認為有所不足那這個是我看到一個問題那當然去年7月16號就已經修正有提高刑度啦但是目前還沒有適用刑法的判決出現嘛對不對目前還沒有啦"},{"start":313.099,"end":336.488,"text":"應該是還沒有 因為時間上的關係沒有啦 因為現在還剛剛而已嘛 對不對以那個訴訟程序來看不會那麼快那所以 但是根據內政部的資料家外受虐致死人數比起113年修法前後數 修法前是零人啦那修法後是出現三個案例那去年跟今年我都有提出相關的修法版本 新的版本"},{"start":337.088,"end":355.863,"text":"才剛剛一讀 還沒有納到這次審理那我的修法重點包括增列死刑啊對於這個7歲以上未滿12歲之人肆虐致死傷可以加重刑期到二分之一 就是說有在刑徒的部分希望能夠解決目前實務上判刑過輕的問題那我要想請問法務部您覺得"},{"start":360.747,"end":378.262,"text":"這個部長你覺得我剛剛講的這些司法院的數據不管從死刑啊從故意殺人罪乃到於虐待兒童致死罪啊你覺得這個一直在刑度一直在下降判刑的這個所謂的那個強度一直在下降我不知道法務部是怎麼看這件事情跟社會期待"},{"start":379.102,"end":396.987,"text":"是不是有落差以現行的來講的話那我們希望這個對兒童的保護一定要非常的完備那零容忍那有對一些零內或者傷害兒童甚至殺害的所以我們是認為要嚴懲不要我想這是一個形式的態度跟政策"},{"start":397.867,"end":423.595,"text":"那這一次的一個凱案那我們覺得是我們對 我們也在檢視說我們的法規是不是有要更充實的一個地方所以我們也在做一個研修一個研修 所以昨日跟明天我們都有一個研修的一個會議那我們也希望把我們的研修的一個立法的方向跟各界來做一個對話那我想我們會儘快提出我們的一個版本出來"},{"start":424.255,"end":446.507,"text":"那就謝謝部長,因為我在質詢的時候你也其實我覺得你態度基本上我也有肯定啦,就是至少你要往這方向去做那我想請教,因為上次法務部承諾三個月可以提出版本嘛,這個承諾還是沒改變嗎?對,我們是三個月要提出,希望能夠提出那我再問細一點,就是說修法的方向目前會包括針列死刑嗎?"},{"start":447.843,"end":467.528,"text":"修好的方向對那個我們是認為對未滿7歲的兒童的零列上次我在委員會就有提到如果以零列這部分來當作殺人的方法我認為這個是要脫離那個加重結果患的一個問題認為直接進入到殺人的一個加重的一個室友那這部分我們是希望能夠有再加重的一個行動"},{"start":468.608,"end":494.579,"text":"所以考量嘛死刑的部分有考量在裡面嗎那個殺人罪如果說以這個凌劣的方式來殺人那本來就是有死刑的一個選項了嘛一個刑度那這部分我們會往這部分來做一個再加重的一個考量因為這跟那個加重結果犯因為究竟不是殺人的一個範例下去凌劣的方式有可能是傷害或者甚至用殺人的"},{"start":495.259,"end":516.874,"text":"直接故意或間接故意這個都有那如果說有這部分的話我們就納入了殺人的範疇來做一個規範反正基本上方向跟部長已經有一些基礎共識啦但是修法上法務部就是往這個方向怎麼去更周延去看對因為還有那個不得假釋這部分我們也有納入做這邊的一個考量"},{"start":517.734,"end":532.389,"text":"那我最後再提醒一下我們根據衛福部的資料統計2024年兒童跟少年光家內跟家外受虐致死人數就高達33人是9年新高33人說真的看了都很難過啦"},{"start":533.95,"end":553.808,"text":"因為小孩子其實最沒有能力保護自己結果他們卻面對到這麼大的一個風險你說光2024年就有33個在家內跟家外受虐致死其實坦白講真的是非常讓人家心痛所以換言之不是只有一個凱凱他其實有去年就這個2024年就有33個凱凱"},{"start":556.75,"end":584.419,"text":"而且是九年來的新高那這個嚴重程度當然不完全說今天透過我們法務部或法院的判決還包括我們整個政府對於所謂的受虐兒童的保護的機制都要做系統性的檢討跟反省因為真的不能讓這樣的一個悲劇一直在發生在兒童身上那最後我要講就是說事實上目前兒少的虐待事件其實真的蠻嚴重那政府"},{"start":585.379,"end":592.074,"text":"應該要拿出足夠的魄力跟決心那我們請我們的法務部也好 司法院也好 一起加油好 謝謝您 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時55分）有請法務部長，還有司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早！"],["羅委員智強：今天的主題是討論死刑量刑準則，希望建立一套相關的判準，來減少相似個案間判刑卻不同的爭議，這當然是一個正確的改革方向，但我今天要提一些實際的數據，跟法務部還有司法院的同仁們一起討論。","我先請教一下司法院，以刑法第二百七十一條第一項故意殺人罪來看，近年來判處死刑或無期徒刑的比率，以及有期徒刑的平均刑度，是上升還是下降，司法院，知道嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：今年還沒有統計，我們會後會提出數據給委員。"],["羅委員智強：好，我這邊有整理一部分……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：以地方法院的數據來看，2015年132個罪次裡面，判死的占3.8%，判無期徒刑的占17.4%，有期徒刑的平均判刑是149.35個月；以去年1到8月的數據來看，在所有罪次裡面，判死刑的，你知道是百分之多少嗎？我告訴你，是0，沒有啦！判無期徒刑的是19.4%，有期徒刑的平均判刑是140.41個月。也就是以2015年的與去年的來對比的話，判死的占比從3.8%降到0，判無期徒刑的是從17.4%提高到19.4%，有期徒刑的平均判刑是從149.35個月下降到140.41個月。所以看到整體刑度事實上是下滑，尤其是在死刑這個部分。在臺灣，為什麼外面大家評價是實質廢死？因為在判決的部分，從比率及數據來看，就是已經歸0，實質廢死！當然每一個判刑要看每個個案而定，也不能完全用平均數據來去解讀，不過整體趨勢來看的話，就是殺人罪的刑度下降，不只是判死的比率，連刑期都是，這當然也是為什麼我剛剛前面講外界一直在批評是實質廢死的原因。","我想要再請教，今天排審的是刑法第二百八十六條，也就是虐待兒少致死罪，這10年來，就2015到2024年，只有1件判處無期徒刑，我想請問一下司法院，針對所謂的虐待兒少致死罪，這幾年判處有期徒刑的平均刑度，您知道是上升還是下降嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們手上沒有資料，可以會後提供。"],["羅委員智強：沒問題。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：我們這邊也調出一些數據。一樣以地方法院的數據來看的話，2021年有期徒刑的平均刑度是63.6個月，到2024年就剩下26個月，雖然刑法第二百八十六條的使用比率很低，從2015年到2024年，10年總共只有57件，平均1年五件多，但在近10年98件罪次裡被判無期徒刑者1件，被判5年以上有期徒刑者18件，占比不到二成，被判1年以下者，大概是53件，占比是五成四。這一樣也面對我剛剛前面講的問題，就是不管是地方法院判決、高等法院判決、最高法院判決，也看到觸犯虐待兒少致死的刑度都在下降，這就是為什麼外界會有一些覺得似乎整個國家法制對於兒童的保護並不周全，光從刑事保障來看的話，外面就有人覺得兒童是最脆弱的、最需要保護的，但是從刑法來遏止對於兒童的施虐、重大傷害的情況，事實上我們的保護相對來講從整個判刑的刑度來看，外界可能就認為有所不足，這是我看到的問題。當然，去年7月16日就已經修正，提高刑度了，但是目前還沒有適用新法的判決出現，對不對？目前還沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：應該是還沒有，因為時間上的關係……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，因為才剛修正而已，以訴訟程序來看，不會那麼快。但是根據內政部的資料，比較家外受虐致死的人數在113年修法前後的數字，修法前是0人，修法後出現3個案例。去年跟今年我都有提出相關的修法版本，新的版本才剛剛一讀，還沒有納到這次審理，我的修法重點包括增列死刑，對於七歲以上未滿十二歲之人施虐致死傷者，可以加重刑期至二分之一，也就是在刑度的部分希望能夠解決目前實務上判刑過輕的問題。","我想請問法務部，部長，您覺得我剛剛講的這些司法院的數據，不管從死刑、從故意殺人罪、乃至於虐待兒童致死罪，刑度一直在下降，也就是判刑的強度一直在下降，我不知道法務部是怎麼看這件事情？跟社會期待是不是有落差？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以現行來講的話，我們希望對兒童的保護一定要非常地完備、零容忍，對凌虐、傷害、甚至殺害兒童的，我們認為要嚴懲，我想這是刑事的態度跟政策。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對這次的剴剴案，我們也在檢視相關的法規是不是要有更充實的地方，所以我們也在做研修，昨天跟明天都有研修的會議，希望把立法的方向讓檢辯、各界做一個對話，我們會儘快提版本出來。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝部長。我在質詢的時候，你的態度我也有肯定，至少你要往這個方向去做。我想請教，上次法務部承諾3個月可以提出版本，這個承諾還是沒改變，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們是3個月內要提出，希望能夠提出來。"],["羅委員智強：好，我再問細一點，修法的方向目前會包括增列死刑嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於修法的方向，我們認為對未滿七歲兒童的凌虐，上次我在委員會就有提到，如果以凌虐這部分當作殺人的方法，我認為這個是要脫離加重結果犯的問題，直接進入殺人的加重事由，這部分我們希望能夠再加重刑度。"],["羅委員智強：所以有考量，死刑的部分有考量在裡面嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：殺人罪如果以凌虐的方式來殺人，本來就是有死刑的選項、刑度。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，你上次大概有跟我講。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會往再加重的考量，因為這個跟加重結果犯來講，究竟不是殺人的犯意，凌虐的方式有可能是傷害，或者甚至用殺人的，直接故意或間接故意都有，如果有這部分的話，我們都納入殺人的範疇來做規範。"],["羅委員智強：基本上，我們的方向跟部長已經有一些基礎共識，但是修法上法務部怎麼往這個方向更周延去看法條的衡平性……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，另外還有不得假釋這這部分，我們也納入考量。"],["羅委員智強：好。我最後再提醒一下，根據衛福部的資料統計，2024年兒童及少年光家內跟家外受虐致死人數就高達33人，是9年新高，33人！說真的，看了都很難過，因為小孩子其實最沒有能力保護自己，結果他們卻面對這麼大的風險。光2024年就有33個在家內跟家外受虐致死，坦白講真的非常讓人心痛，換言之，不是只有1個剴剴，其實2024年就有33個剴剴，而且還是9年來的新高。以這個嚴重的程度，當然不完全能透過法務部或法院的判決，還包括整個政府對於受虐兒童的保護機制都要做系統性的檢討及反省，因為真的不能讓這樣的悲劇一直發生在兒童身上。","最後，我要講的是，事實上目前兒少的虐待事件真的滿嚴重的，政府應該要拿出足夠的魄力及決心，請法務部也好、司法院也好一起加油，謝謝您！"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。吳思瑤委員發言完畢之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162212","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828514819ce622157325e54a9d835821946ec695a437ff13aed747f46cb97eb1dba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"10:58:39 - 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已經刪了1400多億然後還有636億要自行調整請問主席 你知不知道雖然名義上是立法院刪的但是主張刪除的表決你有沒有看是不是國民黨跟民眾黨的立委贊成這樣刪除的是不是"},{"start":50.174,"end":54.818,"text":"是所以預算刪除是藍白兩黨刪除了嘛對不對對方的首長聽清楚啊今天刪這麼多就是藍白的立法委員憑藉立法會的多數收含了眼想要貪汗中央政府所以砍這麼多預算啊沒有這些刪除大家今天不用來坐在這個地方啊"},{"start":79.198,"end":106.025,"text":"然後講那個似是而非的說歷年來預算最多哪一個縣市政府不是歷年來預算最多今年哪一個縣市政府不是歷年來預算最多所以用這個邏輯來講是不通的啦因為這是一個話術啊時代進步我們所要做的業務越來越多當然經費要增加然後講的好像我們去少了這個"},{"start":108.206,"end":132.056,"text":"對於這一般的這個補助款刪減就是刻意要刪社福刻意要刪教育刻意要刪一些什麼兒童跟老人的福利我跟你說剛剛主席長有報告地方政府過去這幾年財政都有盈餘啊都plus啦當然長年來講負債還沒有還完但是連續幾年都是正數嘛"},{"start":133.154,"end":158.917,"text":"那所以今年因為立法院這樣刪減大家共體時間來去做財政的手段做一些舉借如果真的不夠也可以啊也還在舉借的範圍內嘛以我新北市來講少了30億但是總數還是比去年多了60幾億啊今年的總體的補助是不是比去年多了60幾億"},{"start":161.104,"end":181.289,"text":"然後來這個地方好像是我們刻意要凌虐你刻意要虧空你的沒有人有這樣的心啦今天如果不是藍白的立法委員沙紅的眼這樣亂刪除預算人家行政院原來編好送到立法院的預算喔是足夠的那誰是始作俑者現在"},{"start":188.263,"end":210.182,"text":"亂三預算之後外界在用大罷免在反彈刻意製造這個場景想要來推卸責任想要來挽回民眾對你們的制裁這一種說法不能接受啦主席長我請問你你的636億為什麼要刪一般性的補助款"},{"start":213.453,"end":231.462,"text":"是因為我們636億第一個他要叫我們自行調整那這個部分如果自行調整金額龐大是有自愛難行而且造成政策成敗無法歸屬所以我們有複議但是複議的結果又被維持原決議所以我們現在在5月21申請釋憲"},{"start":233.923,"end":256.942,"text":"但是我們已窮盡所有的救濟程序然後我們也嘗試去刪減各項譬如說國防、外交還有教育這些大部分都沒有辦法刪減所以我們在不得不的一個情況下才來刪減一般性的一個補助款那目前我們也希望說各界能夠提供給我們一些各方的一個解決的辦法我們聽取各方的一個意見來研擬解決的一個辦法"},{"start":259.664,"end":284.455,"text":"剛剛還在這邊有委員講說是給你方便耶636讓你統山叫做給你方便是有困難的自行刪減是有困難的那你覺得如果不自行刪減舉一個例子國民黨跟民主黨他人就多啊我好指3636還有人要說我要刪更多咧那請他們提出要刪減的金額跟確切的項目你覺得這樣建議好不好"},{"start":286.762,"end":310.017,"text":"至少不要在這邊推卸責任說我是給你方便如果說我們自行刪減責任是真的歸屬困難是這樣子那到底是要刪哪裡就是有困難啊所以預算是誰刪除的誰是始作俑者我要再強調一遍不要亂刪預算後面沒有這些困難啦那刪的預算人民要究責"},{"start":311.858,"end":330.098,"text":"安排這種場景想要推卸責任叫地方來副市長來這邊搞政治說中央就是要克扣你們是這樣嗎你等一下也可以講啊台中市今年總共補助比去年相比多多少"},{"start":334.912,"end":347.61,"text":"多多少 他比去年增加46億今年的補助比去年增加46億是 再減三 靠一句市長說的錢更多不會值振那就換人嘛都用你們邏輯講就好了嘛"},{"start":350.694,"end":376.025,"text":"對不對 他不是講說錢更多不會執政就換人為什麼地方政府的財政每一年往前增加中央政府就說人家是最多因為民進黨會執政啊財政做得比以前好啊 稅收多啊所以我當然變用預算來用啊那你地方政府不是這樣嗎你今天財政做過變好就代表你地方政府的執政也有成效啊"},{"start":377.605,"end":403.597,"text":"那為什麼不用相同的標準對待中央跟地方我再跟藍白的立委講636億有本事你來講這邊講你要刪哪裡 要刪哪一個科目 要刪多少錢不要在那邊賴說什麼事 給人家請證據方便已經刪到沒有辦法再刪了 已經出骨頭沒辦法了你還說你要賭 你要賭就是這樣"},{"start":406.755,"end":433.623,"text":"我在立法院也將近二十年了從來沒有預算刪除兩千多億的啦以前了不起就頂多刪一個百分點一點多個百分點照比例來講 刪照一千億以前最多就是刪三百億今年給你刪兩千多億那我中央沒有錢我中央的錢被拿走了那我要怎麼辦 請台灣全體大家共體時間嘛"},{"start":436.247,"end":453.744,"text":"因為大家都還有財政手段可以用你地方政府跟議會的關係不像在台立法院都在搞政治立法院都在搞政治啊要癱瘓你啊地方議會沒有這樣的狀況地方議會經過議會的同意地方還可以用財政手段"},{"start":454.724,"end":474.925,"text":"以前Mainas的時候也舉借嘛那何況連續這麼多年都是class真正有愛心就用財政手段去解決這個問題行政院也是不得已講的好像是我們都是壞人我們是天生沒良心都是故意要怎麼樣沒有這樣的人啦"},{"start":478.82,"end":506.042,"text":"喔 大家都是應該要將心比心啦今天不要亂算預算 後面沒有這些問題啦我有嘴說到無辜 說到瘦死啦因為這些人都在扭曲啦就是在扭曲 預算是他們砍的甘不甘死牙砍的預算 然後還要不承擔責任還想要推卸責任你們當初在砍多少預算在比賽的時候 不是很爽嗎"},{"start":509.639,"end":524.34,"text":"我跟林大夫回答二十年來我在立法院沒有見過這樣的在野黨了現在只是因為習勢多什麼時候還要打拔配合中華民國憲政中華民國憲法權力分立全部來亂搞一氣"},{"start":530.114,"end":546.945,"text":"那再問一個問題3.114年的一般性補助款有沒有違法他們在強調你違法你有沒有違法是因為依照那個補助辦法裡面他規定就是說中央要橫走自己的一個財力來對地方著以補助那所以這個部分我們在"},{"start":548.125,"end":567.719,"text":"2013年8月30在核定各縣市的一個一般性補助款的時候也述明說如果補助這個部分我們有立法院被刪減的部分我們就會做一個相關的一個調整和刪減所以這個部分2014年一般性補助調減636億也沒有違反相關的一個法令規定"},{"start":568.8,"end":593.465,"text":"另外一點就是預算去年編的你剛剛他現在改了這個財政收支法裡面再去規定說以後他們的那個金額一般性補助款不能減那是要向後生效的是 因為我們是115年編列那是要以114年度的一個一般性補助的額度來作為一個拘束所以他要用後面修的法來說你前面違法嘛"},{"start":593.925,"end":614.971,"text":"他現在邏輯就是這樣你們已經一講再講台灣現在有些地方不講道理藍郡的媒體多都講他們的話好像他們講的都對一樣你要加強發言的力道多講一些讓社會大眾知道怎麼一回事好不好加油堅持到底大罷免大成功謝謝接下來請我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":250,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（10時58分）主席，麻煩請陳主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["吳委員秉叡：這一次立法院的預算刪減總共刪多少金額？"],["陳主計長淑姿：2,076億。"],["吳委員秉叡：2,076億，然後這一次指定名目刪除的有多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：1,439億，還有一個636億沒有指定，要我們自行調整。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，已經刪了一千四百多億，然後還有636億要自行調整。請問主計長你知不知道，雖然名義上是立法院刪的，但是你有沒有看主張刪除的表決？是不是國民黨跟民眾黨的立委贊成這樣刪除的？是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以預算是藍、白兩黨刪除的嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：地方的首長聽清楚，今天刪這麼多就是藍、白的立法委員憑藉在立法院的多數，殺紅了眼，想要癱瘓中央政府，所以砍這麼多預算，沒有這些刪除，今天不用勞費大家坐在這個地方，然後講的似是而非說歷年來預算最多，哪一個縣市政府不是歷年來預算最多？今年哪一個縣市政府不是歷年來預算最多？所以用這個邏輯來講是不通的，因為這是一個話術，時代進步，我們所要做的業務越來越多，當然經費要增加，然後講得好像我們對於一般補助款刪減就是刻意要刪社福、刻意要刪教育、刻意要刪一些兒童跟老人的福利。我跟你說，剛剛主計長有報告，地方政府過去這幾年財政都有盈餘、都plus，當然長年來講負債還沒有還完，但是連續幾年都是正數，所以今年因為立法院這樣刪減，大家共體時艱去做財政的手段，多一些舉借，如果真的不夠也還在舉借的範圍內。","以我新北市來講少了30億，但是總數還是比去年多了六十幾億，今年總體的補助是不是比去年多了六十幾億？然後來這個地方好像是我們刻意要凌虐你、刻意要虧空你，沒有人有這樣的心。今天如果不是藍白的立法委員殺紅了眼，這樣亂刪除預算，人家行政院原來編好送到立法院的預算是足夠的，那誰是始作俑者？現在亂刪預算之後，外界用大罷免在反彈，刻意製造這個場景想要來推卸責任，想要來挽回民眾對你們的制裁，這一種說法不能接受。主計長，我請問你，你的636億為什麼要刪一般性的補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這636億，第一個，因為他要叫我們自行調整，這個部分如果自行調整，金額龐大是有窒礙難行，而且造成政策成敗無法歸屬，所以我們有覆議，但是覆議的結果又被維持原決議，所以我們在5月21日聲請釋憲，因為我們已窮盡所有的救濟程序，也嘗試刪減各項比如國防外交還有教育，這些大部分都沒有辦法刪減，所以我們在不得不的情況下才來刪減一般性補助款，目前也希望各界能夠提供給我們一些解決辦法，我們聽取各方的意見再來研擬解決辦法。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛在這邊還有委員說是給你方便耶！636億讓你統刪叫做「給你方便」？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是有困難的，自行刪減是有困難的。"],["吳委員秉叡：你覺得如果不自行刪減，舉一個例子，國民黨、民眾黨人又多，何止刪636億，還有人說「我要刪更多」！請他們提出要刪減的金額跟確切的項目，你覺得這樣建議好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為這個部分……"],["吳委員秉叡：至少不要在這邊推卸責任說「我是給你方便」啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，如果我們自行刪減，責任真的是歸屬困難。"],["吳委員秉叡：問題是要刪哪裡就是有困難啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以預算是誰刪除的？誰是始作俑者？我要再強調一遍，不要亂刪預算，後面就沒有這些困難啦，那刪了預算，人民要究責，安排這種場景，想要推卸責任，叫地方副市長來這邊搞政治，說中央就是要苛扣你們，是這樣嗎？你等一下也可以講，臺中市今年總共的補助跟去年相比多了多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它比去年增加46億。"],["吳委員秉叡：今年的補助比去年增加46億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是……"],["吳委員秉叡：套一句他們市長說的：「錢更多不會執政，那就換人嘛！」都用你們的邏輯講就好了嘛！對不對？他不是說錢更多不會執政就換人？為什麼地方政府的財政也是每一年往前增加，就說人家中央政府是最多？因為民進黨會執政，財政做得比以前好，稅收多啊，所以我當然編列預算來用，你地方政府不是這樣嗎？你今天財政狀況變好，就代表地方政府的執政也有成效，為什麼不用相同的標準對待中央跟地方？","我再跟藍白的立委講，有本事你來這邊講，636億你要刪哪裡、要刪哪一個科目、要刪多少錢，不要在那邊賴說是給行政院方便，已經刪到沒有辦法再刪了，剩骨頭沒辦法了，你還硬要剁，硬要剁就是這樣啊！我在立法院也將近20年了，從來沒有刪除預算兩千多億的，以前了不起就頂多刪1個百分點、一點多個百分點，照比例來講，3兆1,000億以前最多就是刪300億，今年刪兩千多億，我中央沒有錢，中央的錢被拿走了，我要怎麼辦？請臺灣全體大家共體時艱嘛！因為大家都還有財政手段可以用，你地方政府跟議會的關係，不像在立法院都在搞政治，立法院都在搞政治，要癱瘓你啊！地方議會沒有這樣的狀況，地方經過議會的同意，地方還可以用財政手段，以前minus的時候也舉借嘛！何況連續這麼多年都是plus，真正有愛心，就用財政手段去解決這個問題，行政院也是不得已，講得好像我們都是壞人，我們是天生沒良心，都是故意要怎麼樣，沒有這樣的人啦！大家應該都要將心比心，今天不要亂刪預算，後面沒有這些問題。","我「有嘴說到沒涎」，說到聲音沙啞，因為這些人都在扭曲，就是在扭曲！預算是他們砍的卻無關緊要，砍預算還不承擔責任，還想要推卸責任，你們當初在比賽砍多少預算的時候不是很爽嗎？我跟林德福回答，20年來我在立法院也沒有見過這樣的在野黨，現在只是因為席次多，什麼事情都要「鴨霸」，破壞中華民國憲政，中華民國憲法權力分立全部都亂搞一氣。","再問一個問題，刪減114年的一般性補助款有沒有違法？他們在強調你違法，你有沒有違法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為依照補助辦法裡面規定，中央要衡酌自己的財力來對地方酌予補助，所以這個部分，我們在113年8月30日核定各縣市一般性補助款的時候，也敘明說如果補助這個部分在立法院有被刪減，我們就會做相關的調整和刪減，所以114年一般性補助調減636億這個部分也沒有違反相關的法律規定。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外一點就是預算去年編的，你看看他現在改了財政收支劃分法，裡面規定以後一般性補助款的金額不能減，那是要向後生效的，所以原來也沒有這樣子……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為我們是115年編列，那是要以114年度一般性補助的額度來作為一個拘束。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以他要用後面修的法說你前面違法嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：他現在邏輯就是這樣啊！你們已經一講再講，現在臺灣有些地方不講道理，藍軍的媒體多，都講他們的話，好像他們講的都對一樣，你要加強發言的力道。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：要多講一些，讓社會大眾知道怎麼一回事，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油，堅持到底，大罷免！大成功！"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：好，謝謝，接下來請我們召委賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828a68fdaae606ca44969516374867620ceec695a437ff13aed50af9c3d7560ef6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:58:44 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應該會可以吧"},{"start":188.544,"end":207.782,"text":"市場其實是一直在波動但是有往上有往下那我們覺得我們投資都是看長期基本面我們基金的運作都是以穩健的方式來進行那我要問部長兩個第一個是關稅如果真的調到10到15%"},{"start":209.944,"end":218.907,"text":"我們的產業包括精密機器都受不了他們是真的會受不了那個時候會有人失業喔第二個 台幣如果升值現在已經30塊了嘛32變30 如果到28 越死捏連台積電工業也斷不掉捏這邊呢"},{"start":231.683,"end":258.745,"text":"確實最近這個這個國際上面的經貿的情境的變數很多所以我說跟文說明我們其實也會為各種可能的情境尤其是會為比較嚴峻的情境去預作準備那這也是為什麼我們其實行政院其實也有這個特別條例裡面其實有編列了大概150億那來給勞動部那來作為這個安定就業的支持的做法"},{"start":259.085,"end":284.185,"text":"那可是如果這150億如果到時候真的整體經貿的情境不好那有需要更多我想我們也還有救保或者是救安的基金可以一起綜合的來運用對那這部分都是我們要來來支持相關的勞工所以不管是剛剛講減班休息或可能假設會有出現失業的狀況那我們其實也擬定其實相關的計劃要來支持對"},{"start":285.046,"end":295.975,"text":"好那再來我就問你這個勞保的匯率從30年前我們那個匯率都是6點多那後來健保因為我這一段我都經歷醫院就"},{"start":301.3,"end":329.097,"text":"醫療 本來勞保那6點多%裡面還含醫療那後來醫療切出去之後它還是維持6點多%嘛那醫療的4% 4.5%這樣慢慢增加是健保署的那現在一直增加 增加到已經11%了嘛現在匯率是11%嘛 對不對11 11.5那11.5是不夠的嘛你們的理想是多少"},{"start":332.87,"end":358.127,"text":"跟委員報告 依照最新的精算就是未來服務成本是17.19%多少17.1917.19是你的理想所以我們在醫學上叫期望值這樣公司好像受得了嗎確實是我們要考量到目前最高上限就是12%"},{"start":360.89,"end":379.745,"text":"所以你現在顯然不足所以每一年都用撥補 撥補 撥補是這樣嗎各位報告 其實我們勞保是社會保險他的財務本來就是財的是部分提成準備我們不會弄到平衡的費率主要是要照顧勞工"},{"start":380.928,"end":408.038,"text":"所以我們都是沒有達到平衡事實上你那個匯率勞工本身付的差不多20%而已嘛是是那其他都是僱主在付嘛僱主是付80%嘛70%然後10%是政府政府付就跟健保一樣嘛差不多嘛那所以你現在每一年用撥補當然對年輕的人他們會認為"},{"start":410.111,"end":420.74,"text":"這不是世代不正義嗎你以前的老人家每年都不會死每年多到八十歲九十歲一百歲現在年輕人就每年九十歲問題是現在的孩子越來越小了孩子越來越小的負擔就越來越大不然你怎麼選這個那要怎麼做這個跟委員說明這當然是長期以來其實在大家在討論勞保財務裡面"},{"start":438.947,"end":460.237,"text":"這個很重要的問題那不過的確現在當然外界過去其實也有過提議說是不是要提高費率或者是要減少給付但不管是提高費率或減少給付這對於即時勞工的權益的影響其實都蠻大的所以我們其實都是用很審慎的態度在看待這些事情"},{"start":461.363,"end":475.53,"text":"因為我在鄉下,看病人什麼都好,很多我們的老公的朋友退休後,娘的錢都幾千塊而已,一萬塊以下很少,這一萬塊以下實在是不夠生活費啦,"},{"start":478.692,"end":479.713,"text":"那這些人將來你有沒有想把他們提高還是怎麼樣"},{"start":500.257,"end":522.856,"text":"跟我的說明這當然是就是像我們剛才說目前其實這個在開源節流的因為目前確實財務我們不會說財務沒有問題可是在要進行開源節流的時候其實大家都想那我要怎麼減少給付可是減少給付會影響勞工的權益所以這的確是一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":523.837,"end":550.276,"text":"所以這也是為什麼其實我們才會一直在想說有沒有可能有一些另外的財政的財源的來源才會有像波普這樣子的想法或者是說我們也希望我們在基金的投資的效益可以做到更好所以才會在這個想法下面不然的確這個議題我想不管各黨來說都是一個非常大的挑戰誰執政誰都要面對啦所以我今天講的重點第一個是錢嘛一些收入很少的你應該給他加一些"},{"start":551.437,"end":572.257,"text":"畢竟是你們要照顧第二是人年輕人越來越少小孩子越來越少這個馬上要面對的那對年輕人他們要繳更多的稅來撥譜來幹嘛這個也要好好的配套那第三個就是你們投資的效率你的效率書記長你說你很年輕你怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":573.999,"end":599.759,"text":"我也要勤奮 但是啊 料錢就是料錢啊因為要創侯探期 這更重要啊短期是有一些虧損啦 但是其實我們經營局這幾年其實整體的效益是很穩健的在成長的那個新加坡淡馬市 我有去查我有認識的朋友在那邊 他們每一年的那個低獲利的都有6%高獲利的有12%以上"},{"start":600.78,"end":608.453,"text":"所以這個是也可以參考一下市長你借給你大家想要怎麼賺錢 好不好大家加油啦 好 謝謝謝謝蘇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時58分）謝謝主席。請部長、黃署長及蘇局長。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長辛苦了。我要肯定一下勞動力發展署，這幾天我們去看勞動力發展署的中區分署及高屏分署，做得非常好！"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員給我們肯定。"],["蘇委員清泉：中區分署及高屏分署對於地方產業所需要的人才，而且是不一樣的產業類別，譬如高雄就是與拆船或機械相關，中區是精密機械等等，都有分類，而且有宿舍，老師也都非常投入。我的結論是可能要幫那些老師加一下薪水，不然會待不住！其次，裡面的機器有的是捐贈的，有的是要來的，有的是撿來的，有的去買的，要寛列經費，那個要與時俱進，就是買新的，可以啦？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，很謝謝衛環委員會在這段時間訪視我們中分署、高分署、桃分署，訪視了我們很多的分署，然後給我們相關的肯定，我想這讓我們同仁在信心上面也有很多的提升。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！就是在上次發生事情之後很低迷，所以我們也是要去鼓勵他們，那是你們勞動部的亮點，真的是亮點。"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：不然也沒有人在跟你們說什麼好話，所以我再次予以肯定，黃署長，加油！","第二個，我要問蘇局長還有部長，今年為什麼匯兌會虧損？什麼減幾百億、一千多億，到底是怎麼樣？"],["蘇局長郁卿：因為在今年4月美國宣布關稅措施，所以整個市場動盪的情形很劇烈，以臺股來看，到今年4月底我們臺股就跌了超過12%，以美國跟我們關係最密切的費半指數來看，也超過15%，事實上對我們造成非常大的影響，但是跟委員報告，因為這個都是屬於評價的損失，並沒有實現，那我們……"],["蘇委員清泉：你們沒有賣掉啦？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們會有操作實現利益，然後這個目前是帳上未實現的損失。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以最主要是川普喊出調高關稅之後，他感冒了，結果我們都得肺炎，再來我們要住ICU啦！他亂喊一通，我們就死翹翹了，會不會再回來？應該可以吧？"],["蘇局長郁卿：市場其實是一直在波動，但是有往上也有往下，那我們投資都是看長期基本面，我們基金的運作都是以穩健的方式來進行。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我要問部長兩個問題：第一個是關稅如果真的調到10%到15%，我們包括精密機械等產業都會受不了，他們是真的會受不了，那個時候就會有人失業。第二個，臺幣如果升值，現在已經30塊了，從32變成30，如果升到28，大家會更慘，連台積電也說它受不了，這要怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：確實在最近國際上經貿情境的變數很多，我跟委員說明，我們其實也會為各種可能的情境，尤其是比較嚴峻的情境去預做準備，這也是為什麼我們行政院在這個特別條例裡面編列了大概150億給勞動部，就是支持安定就業的作法。雖然有這150億，可是如果到時候整體經貿的情境真的不好，需要更多經費，我想我們也還有就保或就安的基金可以一起綜合的來運用，在這部分我們也都是要來支持相關的勞工，所以不管是剛才講的減班休息或可能會出現失業的狀況，我們其實也有擬定相關的計畫要來支持。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。再來我要問你勞保的費率，在差不多30前我們的費率都是百分之六點多，後來健保……這一段我都經歷了，本來勞保的百分之六點多裡面還含醫療，後來醫療切出去之後，它還是維持百分之六點多，那醫療從4%、4.5%這樣慢慢增加，是健保署的，現在一直增加，已經增加到11%了，現在費率是11%對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：11.5%。"],["蘇委員清泉：11.5%是不夠的，你們的理想是多少？"],["陳司長美女：跟委員報告，依照最新的精算，未來服務的成本是17.19%。"],["蘇委員清泉：多少？"],["陳司長美女：17.19%。"],["蘇委員清泉：17.19%是你的理想，我們在醫學上叫期望值，像這樣公司行號受得了嗎？"],["陳司長美女：我們確實是要考量到，目前最高上限就是12%。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你現在顯然不足，所以每一年都用撥補、撥補、撥補，是這樣嗎？"],["陳司長美女：跟委員報告，其實我們勞保是社會保險，它的財務本來就是採部分提存準備，我們不會弄到平衡的費率，主要是要照顧勞工，所以我們都是沒有達到平衡。"],["蘇委員清泉：事實上，你那個費率，勞工本身付的差不多是20%而已嘛？"],["陳司長美女：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：其他都是雇主在付，雇主是付80%嘛？"],["陳司長美女：70%。"],["蘇委員清泉：然後10%是……"],["陳司長美女：政府。"],["蘇委員清泉：是政府付，就跟健保一樣，差不多嘛！所以你現在每一年用撥補，當然年輕人會認為是世代不正義，以前的老人家一直領，都不會死，大家活到80歲、90歲、100歲，這些年輕人就一直每年繳錢，問題是現在的小孩越來越少，因為小孩越來越少，他的負擔就越來越大，部長，你有沒有想到這個問題？這樣要怎麼解決？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這當然是長期以來大家在討論勞保財務裡面很重要的問題，的確外界過去其實也有提議說是不是要提高費率或者是要減少給付，但是不管是提高費率或減少給付，這對於勞工權益的影響其實都滿大的，所以我們都是用很審慎的態度在看待這些事情。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我在鄉下看診或做什麼的時候，看到有很多勞工朋友在退休之後領的錢都只有幾千塊而已，只領1萬塊以下的人很多，1萬塊以下實在是連生活費都不夠，像臺北市的基本生活費是1萬6,000元嘛！像屏東那邊很多人都是這樣，查了以後發現有一成的人是領少於1萬塊，對這些人將來你有沒有想幫他們提高還是怎麼樣？難道要放著不管他們的死活嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這當然就像我們剛才說的，我們不會說財務沒有問題，可是要進行開源節流的時候，其實大家都會想要怎麼減少給付，可是減少給付會影響勞工的權益，這的確是一個很大的挑戰，所以我們一直在想有沒有可能有一些另外的財源，才會有像撥補這樣子的想法，或是我們也希望我們在基金的投資效益可以做到更好，所以才會在這個想法下面來做，不然我想這個議題的確對各黨來說都是一個非常大的挑戰。"],["蘇委員清泉：不管是誰執政，誰都要來面對啦！所以我今天講的有幾個重點：第一個就是錢，對一些收入很少的人，你應該要幫他增加一些，這必須是你們要照顧的。第二個是人，年輕人越來越少，小孩子越來越少，這是我們馬上要面對的。對年輕人來講，他們要繳更多的稅來撥補、來做什麼，這個也要好好的做配套；第三個就是你們投資的效益，蘇局長，你說你很認真，說你做得怎麼樣又怎麼樣，我也給你肯定，但是賠錢就是賠錢，你一定要做到賺錢，這才是最重要的。"],["洪部長申翰：在短期是有一些虧損，但是其實我們基金局這幾年整體的效益是很穩健的在成長。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有去查新加坡的淡馬錫，我有認識的朋友在那邊，他們每一年的低獲利都有6%，高獲利都有12%以上，所以這個也可以參考一下。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：局長，你坐著的時候就要好好想要怎麼賺錢，好不好？大家加油啦！"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。","我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時8分）","繼續開會（11時20分）"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：我們現在繼續開會。我們中午不休息，先發便當。","請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162210","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162210","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98284da43dd8ca34519155f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aed854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:54:29 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:54:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T11:06:29+08:00","duration":720,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.11471875,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.847843750000003,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.60909375,"end":30.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.59159375,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.11721875,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.44909375,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.85721875,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.96596875,"end":106.78221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.03534375000001,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.43096875,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.15034375,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.46096875,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.48159375,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.92784375000002,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.45096875000002,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.46784375000001,"end":204.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.74221875,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.32971875,"end":228.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.92409375000003,"end":226.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.40471875,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.48409375000003,"end":234.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.86534375000002,"end":253.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.07159375,"end":266.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.51721875000004,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.72159375,"end":297.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.59409375,"end":287.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.24659375000005,"end":319.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.99346875000003,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.38159375000004,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.33971875000003,"end":348.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.39221875000004,"end":364.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.67909375000005,"end":392.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.74596875000003,"end":366.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.86971875,"end":481.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.49159375000005,"end":496.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.46409375,"end":513.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.62659375000004,"end":518.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.7565937500001,"end":517.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.2453437500001,"end":520.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.9878437500001,"end":520.8272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.8272187499999,"end":520.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.84409375,"end":568.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.8059687500001,"end":523.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.30096875,"end":545.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.32096875,"end":553.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.1909687500001,"end":569.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.7478437500001,"end":569.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.20346875,"end":570.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.23721875,"end":571.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.2959687499999,"end":577.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.29971875,"end":577.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.81409375,"end":577.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.93221875,"end":582.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.66596875,"end":595.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.90596875,"end":584.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.061593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我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請許議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路"},{"start":27.132,"end":42.514,"text":"經國路、借售路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換健保卡要換"},{"start":43.075,"end":45.176,"text":"他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們的藥這個"},{"start":59.964,"end":75.372,"text":"要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有郵務這個系統的更新請問一下部長您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條"},{"start":78.876,"end":85.439,"text":"報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛"},{"start":97.664,"end":112.533,"text":"那既然有349條 那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址 營業登記跟建物的門牌還有這項政策的實施範圍 規模跟預估的成本都要多少 請您具體說明"},{"start":113.562,"end":131.076,"text":"是謝謝徐委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間"},{"start":137.14,"end":139.163,"text":"也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎"},{"start":152.097,"end":161.784,"text":"我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年的時候在我們促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理"},{"start":174.474,"end":189.413,"text":"好 那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛"},{"start":189.733,"end":196.42,"text":"所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說以案十萬請問一下以案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化"},{"start":206.531,"end":209.493,"text":"我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的所以當部長講的10萬是指移銅像的10萬"},{"start":224.943,"end":228.604,"text":"改入名的部分我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例裡面有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行"},{"start":249.969,"end":256.47,"text":"所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路段的戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改"},{"start":278.874,"end":287.017,"text":"但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本"},{"start":305.424,"end":319.311,"text":"大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調"},{"start":321.018,"end":325.161,"text":"好 這是到6月4號為止 就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對 覺得浪費公帑好 那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說政府不是在安眠錢嗎 話都給你講就好了還有預算不是被砍了嗎 哪有錢改入民"},{"start":344.156,"end":347.941,"text":"真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好 你可以看到網友的心聲"},{"start":361.46,"end":364.742,"text":"那也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好"},{"start":382.475,"end":388.937,"text":"那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的影響這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府"},{"start":403.061,"end":419.436,"text":"所以呢我覺得你應該建議我們賴清德總統搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點不要柿子敲卵的吃就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個"},{"start":426.802,"end":440.388,"text":"這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴"},{"start":452.473,"end":480.746,"text":"開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那入名的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改入名"},{"start":481.653,"end":501.885,"text":"報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改變我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說"},{"start":502.685,"end":512.07,"text":"好 我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是 五個部會一起好 那內政部有沒有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署部的打詐疑表板"},{"start":518.374,"end":544.615,"text":"是 我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報下去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元喔所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐不是通報率的提高 破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都怪詐的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中這些立法院通過防詐的四個條例"},{"start":546.476,"end":548.017,"text":"是外交替代役所以是屬於內政部嗎"},{"start":572.338,"end":583.328,"text":"他替代役的藝男 但是外交替代役 當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關我們會一起負責對 那你們要一起負責嘛所以謝謝我們的指教這是我們應該討論的 也可以需要有檢討的空間那請問一下 當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的"},{"start":597.104,"end":625.379,"text":"報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的記錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪"},{"start":625.999,"end":629.002,"text":"我覺得我們內在過我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是因果管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對 但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有"},{"start":642.276,"end":661.209,"text":"但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在有機警政署在試毒方面其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入我們成立連來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的改善我相信"},{"start":661.789,"end":672.756,"text":"但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好因為我們目前統計出來可能還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這個部分管詐騙或硬案的管理當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要語重心長的跟部長講一下如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型陣營"},{"start":692.149,"end":716.381,"text":"報告委員轉型正義它本來就是二四小時需要去處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好這不是大部分民眾的想法我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項謝謝好 謝謝徐議貞委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。我想先請教您，近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例公開表示，各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱，像中正路、經國路、介壽路也不排除全面更名。但我要提醒部長，這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事，除牽扯到數以萬計的門牌更換之外，對於民眾來說，身分證要換，健保卡要換，連戶口名簿要換，甚至房屋權狀、土地權狀可能都要換，牽扯的層面很廣。對於公司來說，商業登記、營業執照等各項相關的都要換，有藥廠還告訴我，他們的製藥證照也要換。其他如地圖導航，郵務系統的更新等等。請問部長，您目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路、經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，目前跟中正街路巷有關的是311條，介壽路是29條，經國街路巷是9條，總共349條。"],["許委員宇甄：這是你們在113年12月13號的書面報告所提出的。我想請教部長，這349條分別會影響多少戶籍、地址、營業登記跟建物門牌？還有，這項政策的實施範圍、規模跟預估的成本大概是多少？請具體說明。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝許委員。目前我們手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據，但我們都知道我們所處理的轉型正義、程序正義非常重要。所以我們才一再對外強調，中央政府跟地方政府要顧慮到兩點，包括從法定任務來處理的話，需要與社會溝通的時間。也就是說，讓大家能夠知道……"],["許委員宇甄：也就是內政部針對這部分並沒有先就相關資訊做整理，甚至沒有預估所可能花費的成本就開始推動，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們是依法推動，並非內政部無來由推動！而且這是促轉條例第十一條之二所規範，要求內政部跟各級政府機關應配合辦理。"],["許委員宇甄：雖是應配合辦理，但對內政部來說也要先了解在要求各級機關、縣市政府去做這樣一個動作時，其影響層面到底多廣？需要的成本是多少？如此才能要求縣市政府。為什麼現在縣市政府一片反彈？部長之前說，沒關係，如果不夠錢的話內政部來出，最後還說一案10萬。請問一案10萬有辦法做到這些事情嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這太過簡化。所謂的一案10萬塊是指目前民政司能夠處理的部分，譬如某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到……以前可以移到桃園大溪園區。在移除過程當中，所需要的……"],["許委員宇甄：所以剛剛部長講的10萬，是指移銅像的10萬？那改路名呢？"],["劉部長世芳：目前我們在討論。至於改路名部分，公務預算無法支出，但在……"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼公務預算無法支出？"],["劉部長世芳：您聽我說明。促轉條例有規定，在處理過程當中，如果需要動用國發會的促轉基金預算的話，內政部當然會協助地方政府執行……"],["許委員宇甄：所以錢不是問題是這個意思嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，所謂的錢不是問題，這樣講太簡化。其實是在處理過程中，如果涉及委員剛剛所提的戶籍……"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛提到的可多了，不只戶籍問題，還有營業登記問題，建物門牌問題，甚至個人，比如你們沒有評估到的個人身分證、健保卡，所有個人的權狀、地契全部都要更改，還有公司……"],["劉部長世芳：但是在行政程序法上面，如果是因為公務機關要變動……"],["許委員宇甄：所以可以跟政府申請嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：您聽我說明。在變動過程當中可以兩種同時存在，然後慢慢隨著時間的遷移……"],["許委員宇甄：我大概算了一下，目前四都會影響38個行政區、41萬人，粗估成本大概要九千多萬，將近一億，這還不包含民間成本！為什麼這件事會引起那麼大的反彈？就是因為大家知道這件事情……請部長看一下最新的網路民調。到6月4號為止有7.8萬人……"],["劉部長世芳：這只是一種意見表達。"],["許委員宇甄：我可以讓你看看這7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼，有86%人是反對，覺得浪費公帑。你再看一下網友留言的意見，「政府不是在唉沒錢嗎？話都給你講就好」、「預算不是被砍了，還有錢改路名，真是說謊的爛政腐」……"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝委員……"],["許委員宇甄：再來就是「做這種事情浪費錢，也毫無意義，納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這些官員亂花的」，還有「真的是吃飽太閒，不是改路名，就是罷免，用的都是國家的錢」，你可以看到網友的心聲。剛剛部長就講說……"],["劉部長世芳：是，也有縣市長表達出不同意的看法，然後直接在批評說：這是五四三。但是我也要強調，因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的，並規範內政部就需要這樣處理，內政部的處理步調不夠快、不夠好，那是另外一回事，但是在價值的選擇以及依照自由民主憲政的處理方向……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我這邊有一個建議啦！我覺得你既然要做所謂的促轉條例……"],["劉部長世芳：如果不處理的話，也是一個怠惰的立場。"],["許委員宇甄：你覺得要去除威權的象徵，我給你一個建議，其實最大具威權的象徵就是現在的總統府，也就是以前日本的總督府，所以我覺得你應該要建議賴清德總統搬離總統府，來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵，要做就要做大一點，不要柿子挑軟的吃，只是在欺負我們的民眾。","另外，你還提到經國路也要改，事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生對於臺灣的貢獻很多，不管是他在擔任總統、行政院副院長跟經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設，或是他在1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任工研院院長，之後才創辦了台積電，也才有現在的護國神山，此外，蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁、黨禁、解除戒嚴，開放臺灣民主轉型。他有這麼多的貢獻，可是你們現在卻說，因為轉型正義、因為威權的關係，所以我們要改名，你有想過他這些對臺的偉大貢獻到現在大家都還津津樂道。","所以請問部長，民進黨為了轉型正義，可以如此抹煞蔣經國對臺灣的貢獻嗎？路名的存在是會影響選票，還是衝擊選情，不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改路名呢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛有提過，這是大院所通過的促轉條例，我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的，出現在公共建築或場所中紀念、緬懷威權統治者的象徵，都應予以移除或改名。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，這個條例大家都知道，但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做，比如說，我們從詐騙來看好了，詐騙是內政部主管的吧？是內政部警政署主管的吧？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，是五個部會，詐防條例是五個部會一起。"],["許委員宇甄：那內政部有沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的警政署在第一線處理有關防詐的部分，警政署非常辛苦。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問警政署是不是有個打詐儀錶板？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們沒有要對外隱瞞，所以每次只要有報案，我們就會po上去。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我們看一下打詐儀錶板，今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元，所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐，不是通報率的提高、破案率的上升，而是詐騙金額屢創新高。而且就在這個時候，我們看到內政部所管轄的替代役制度……"],["劉部長世芳：但是金額跟人數也在下降當中，也謝謝立法院通過防詐的四個條例。"],["許委員宇甄：金額和人數沒有下降，是一直在上升喔！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，跟委員報告一下……"],["許委員宇甄：表示我們詐騙的問題一直都沒有好好的處理。"],["劉部長世芳：我們應該一起努力，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛你講有五個部門，現在我們來看一下，內政部所管轄的替代役制度也出現重大的醜聞，一名外交替代役男可以在服役期間主導暗網毒品的交易，涉案金額高達30億元。"],["劉部長世芳：他是外交替代役。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是屬於內政部嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：他是替代役的役男，但是是外交替代役，當時他是在外交部的聖露西亞……"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問是誰要管理？"],["劉部長世芳：都是由目的事業主管機關，申請的目的事業主管機關。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你是說這是外交部的問題，不是內政部的問題嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們會一起負責。"],["許委員宇甄：對，你們要一起負責嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以謝謝委員的指教，這是我們應該討論的，也需要有檢討的空間。"],["許委員宇甄：請問當時他的內控和背景審查是怎麼做的？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在做書面審查的時候，他不會提出他要犯罪，所以在書面審查的時候，他是臺大的高材生，當時沒有任何的犯罪紀錄。"],["許委員宇甄：那你們的內控呢？他可以做到30億金額的毒品交易，表示是很長的一段時間，顯示內控制度出現很大的問題……"],["劉部長世芳：是，在虛擬世界的犯罪裡面，確實非常難，我們也是臺灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界，我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪。"],["劉部長世芳：我沒有講境外，我是說虛擬。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得內政部必須要好好的去檢討相關的問題，不管是詐騙或是役男管理的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們會來檢討、會來改進。"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是什麼時候呢？大概需要多久時間？因為這樣的話，我從上任以來到現在已經一年多了……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，詐騙的部分，大概有人類以來都會有，但是這需要我們很大的努力，尤其警政署在識讀方面其實是盡了最大的努力，包括推出打詐儀錶板，所以現在包括很多刑事、行政警察幾乎都投入，我們從歷年來、從這個法案通過，我一直感謝詐防條例……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我相信我們現在有做了一些改善，但是詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高，表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好、還沒有做到。"],["劉部長世芳：是，因為目前統計出來，還有一些子法沒有完全公告。"],["許委員宇甄：麻煩部長要好好的去針對這部分，不管是詐騙或役男的管理。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：當然，為什麼今天會跟部長講這個？我最後要語重心長的跟部長講，如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話，還來談什麼人權轉型？是不是應該先把治安做好，我們再來談一下轉型正義？謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，轉型正義本來就是24小時需要去處理的人權問題，而且轉型正義是一種價值的選擇……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我們把百姓的人身安全先管理好，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：轉型正義絕對不是今天做、明天可以不做……"],["許委員宇甄：部長，不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天在做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作，而真正該做的詐騙工作、防制工作都沒有做好，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：這不是大部分民眾的想法，我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","我們休息3分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席（許委員宇甄代）：請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162209","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162209","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98281aa92bbf42bd514255f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aed8c3f6bbd0a8feaf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:46:21 - 10:54:23","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:46:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T10:54:23+08:00","duration":482,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.77284375,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.063468750000002,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.56096875,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.03346875,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.05034375,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.809718750000002,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.454093750000002,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.57221875,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.309718750000002,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.157218750000002,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.190343750000004,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.59096875,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.57721875,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.45034375,"end":99.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.30221875000001,"end":104.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.94284375000001,"end":108.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.70596875000001,"end":146.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.19784375,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.31784375,"end":162.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.95471875,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.89846875,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.17221875,"end":179.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.34034375000002,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.59659375,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.63346875000002,"end":199.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.32034375,"end":204.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.80909375000002,"end":205.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.63596875000002,"end":208.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.29784375000003,"end":214.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.38534375,"end":216.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.29659375000003,"end":228.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.63659375,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.79159375,"end":235.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.22596875000002,"end":238.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.62659375,"end":252.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.24471875,"end":254.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.55659375000002,"end":255.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.46784375000001,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.49221875,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.17409375,"end":275.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.81909375000004,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.52221875000004,"end":288.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":294.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.70221875000004,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.26221875000005,"end":308.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.11346875000004,"end":314.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.65284375000005,"end":314.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.24346875000003,"end":318.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.91409375,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.31846875,"end":320.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.20846875,"end":322.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.33471875000004,"end":362.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.82659375000003,"end":386.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.06659375000004,"end":366.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.16221875,"end":375.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.18534375,"end":391.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.64909375,"end":391.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.71659375,"end"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新台17線劉部長有請"},{"start":394.325,"end":421.486,"text":"謝謝部長在過去的努力劉立偉期間的努力我們也跟內政部有申請到生活圈道路等等的這一些在最後關頭國防部出了一個大招就說他們需要臨時的戰備跑道需要幫他代菜代件幾個最後由公共工程委員會跟行政院來報報一個二十幾億的預算也很感謝卓院長這邊"},{"start":422.526,"end":449.487,"text":"知道這一條路的重要性那也補足這先由行政院有協調好國防部先用基金來補足這個包含他們的戰備跑道包含他們的這些代菜代件那所以新台17線第二期包含通道借售路這一段都可以開工了謝謝委員的努力沒有我是接著部長繼續來做這個事情但是部長還是要拜託南段這一邊雖然"},{"start":450.348,"end":473.534,"text":"我們的預算有被刪但是我們還是會努力的希望把南段的這個南門圓環相關需要的這些經費我當然希望高雄市政府再精簡一點讓內政部可以讓我們國土署可以把南段一併補齊可以在明年如期的完工是好我們來努力啦那我想我們這個署長他都有追蹤這個進度那隨時會跟委員來報告好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":479.537,"end":480.665,"text":"好 謝謝李博弈委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時46分）辛苦了，有請署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：感謝署長這段時間常常為了高雄地方的建設，由我們內政委員會安排考察，署長都有到場，然後來協助高雄的一些地方的建設，尤其是我的選區左營跟楠梓的幾項大型的工程，包含新台17線跟工程會等等的協調，那也得到行政院的支持。但今天我們所安排的是建築法跟平均地權，我先表達對於建築法第七十七條修正的一些意見，其實高雄市在經過城中城大火之後，高雄市政府其實對於所有的這些老舊大樓，在3天內對全市34棟以上30年沒有成立管委會的這些大樓，都趕快進行了公安的稽查，所以高雄市是已經經歷了這一些，已經有做了包含協助成立管委會或者是負責人等等的這些工作。經過了這次大火，由高雄市政府做的這些安檢之後，其實普遍超過30年以上的大樓，對於消防安檢以及要做這些相關改善的接受度頗高，大家沒有什麼怨言。","但是我的選區裡面有一個社區是果貿社區，它非常特殊，它是1985年興建的，到今天已經超過40年了，署長也到現場去看過，現場就是磁磚等等都會有一些脫落的現象，但果貿社區其實不是只有它的公共空間，裡面還有一些私人產權的土地，它還有一個很嚴重的問題沒有辦法解決，就是它沒有管委會，它是收清潔費，每一戶150塊的清潔費，所以其實果貿社區要去改善外牆脫落都有非常大的困難。","其實那天署長跟高雄市政府也對都更基金整建要有什麼樣的基準等等提出一些建議跟看法，但是來檢視一下目前整個國土署對於老舊公寓大樓整建的補助規範，我們把它做了一個檢討，從2022年到2024年，中央補助六都的案件，其實雙北也沒有，我就講四都就好了，桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄一共只有12件，那我用這個比例來算一下，四都如果是280萬戶……六都一共519萬戶，接受中央補助四都，12件裡面一共只有778戶，所以可以成功來申請的比例非常的低。我這邊想跟署長再進一步的來探討為什麼比例那麼低，你看，剛光看到第一項，大家就往後退，看到第二項又往後退三步，看到第三項，好！那我不申請好了。","第一項是什麼？有突出修繕工程，這種老大樓，你看果貿，一堆人來拍照，然後你就要討論它的鐵窗，再討論它冷氣外露，那我不要了，我都不要了。署長，拜託政府單位都不要過來了，我要跟你申請外牆補助，你先跟我討論老舊的這些、過去的這些現況，所以變成我們目前可以申請的，會有意願來申請的也不多。剛剛其實其他委員也有質詢，也希望說我們這些老化的房子，需要老屋延壽的這些，其實我們也希望老屋延壽的內容可以把這種特殊的案例，像果貿社區這種急需政府來協助的也放進來。署長，有沒有這個機會？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，第一個，當然委員所垂詢的這個，所謂在一到三項裡面，尤其是屬於違章的部分，譬如鐵窗或冷氣突出物，這些其實它是占所謂的比重問題，其實我理解，因為我之前在臺南市政府服務的時候，大概有遇到類似的問題，所以基本上來講，現在實務上的作法，我們是用比例來算，它不是一個……"],["李委員柏毅：對啊！但比例都往下降……"],["吳署長欣修：對，一個是比例。"],["李委員柏毅：我們也實際上看了補助的狀況，說實在是真的偏低，所以建議國土署這邊來做一個討論跟調整。"],["吳署長欣修：這個內容我想我們可以來檢討。"],["李委員柏毅：好。"],["吳署長欣修：檢討這樣的內容。第二個，現在老屋延壽的這個部分，當時因為是試辦的性質，所以大致上會以無電梯公寓的大樓，大概是4到6樓先來試辦，因為通常它在結構疑慮上來講，它比較容易達成R值45以下這樣的一個標準。當然試辦的過程如果相對上來講成果比較好，後續院裡面如果支持變成一個常態性的公務預算的話，我們可以朝這個方向把它一起納進來。"],["李委員柏毅：對，其實不只是4到6樓的這些公寓，像果貿社區已經超過40年，它未來一定也會是需要政府進去協助的一個社區，我們希望提早來面對這個問題，也不要說讓它一直放在那邊沒有辦法解決。","最後我想要針對新台17線最後的進度，請部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝部長在過去的努力，劉立委期間的努力，我們也跟內政部有申請到生活圈道路等等的這一些，那在最後關頭，國防部出了一個大招，就是他們需要臨時的戰備跑道，需要幫它代拆代建幾個，最後由公共工程委員會跟行政院來報一個二十幾億的預算，也很感謝卓院長知道這條路的重要性，行政院有協調好國防部先用基金來補足這個，包含他們的戰備跑道、包含他們的這些代拆代建，所以新台17線第2期，包含通到介壽路這一段都可以開工了。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的努力。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有，我是接著部長繼續來做這個事情，但是部長還是要拜託，南段這邊雖然我們的預算有被刪，但是我們還是會努力，希望把南段的南門圓環相關需要的這些經費，我當然希望高雄市政府再精簡一點，讓內政部國土署可以把南段一併補齊，可以在明年如期的完工。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們來努力，我想署長他都有追蹤這個進度，隨時會跟委員來報告。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝、謝謝部長、謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","下一位我們請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162208","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162208","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828d50355a7fb0db59855f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aed2f620ca07494474b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:35:42 - 10:46:12","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:35:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T10:46:12+08:00","duration":630,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.54221875,"end":108.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":117.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.09284375000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.41346875,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.48096875,"end":151.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.90596875,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.31034375000002,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.23596875,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.96784375000001,"end":219.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.84471875000003,"end":259.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.25221875,"end":279.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.76784375,"end":309.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.64909375,"end":409.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.00909375000003,"end":410.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.93721875,"end":411.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.94971875000005,"end":485.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.86221875,"end":497.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.60721875,"end":498.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.07534375000006,"end":506.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.46221875000003,"end":508.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.03159375,"end":536.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.8915937500001,"end":514.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.24596875,"end":514.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.37534375,"end":524.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.8772187500001,"end":525.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.65596875,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.8959687500001,"end":542.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.1572187500001,"end":543.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.22034375,"end":568.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.98846875,"end":613.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.57409375,"end":602.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.0209687500001,"end":604.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.0534687500001,"end":628.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.87346875,"end":630.1940937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.918,"end":3.805,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請部長"},{"start":11.238,"end":35.637,"text":"委員早好部長早這邊先跟您請教一個最近發生的事情就是昨天您有參加這個世界警消運動會的壽旗典禮對不對是那當然就是每兩年就一次就是世界上非常對於警消單位來說非常重要的一個運動會那我也樂見其實昨天部長到壽旗典禮上面是親自把這個國旗授給代表團的團長那這個團長也是由我們警政署的副署長來代表"},{"start":41.041,"end":65.176,"text":"那部長也提到說希望選手可以為國爭光來提高我國的能見度但是呢就有選手來反映說其實因為兩年前的這個代表團出訪的時候有選手他們帶了我國的國旗那前兩年的舉辦是在加拿大那結果呢他帶了國旗被我們警政署要求說要拿掉"},{"start":65.856,"end":72.524,"text":"那這是兩年前發生的事情那今年是到了美國那目前我得知說我們代表團還是沒有帶國旗那我們代表團帶的是中華台北的這個奧會的會旗"},{"start":80.834,"end":91.119,"text":"那我看到也覺得非常的遺憾我們授旗的時候拿的是國旗那其實過去包括2003年在第10屆2005年11屆2013年15屆2017年第17屆的時候我們在開幕式或者是閉幕式都有舉國旗但是在上一次卻被我們自己的警政署說我們去參加世界警校運動會的時候不要舉我國的國旗"},{"start":109.108,"end":122.059,"text":"那我不知道說今年的代表團可不可以部長會支持我們的代表團出席的時候舉國旗嗎報告委員我們能夠參加世界錦囂運動會當然要按照世界錦囂運動會的各項的賽事規則那我們能夠提高我們的國旗能見度當然是盡我們的所能"},{"start":130.066,"end":151.231,"text":"而且大家都知道我們所參與的各項國際運動賽事最大的阻礙是在中國所以我們這次還是一樣按照以前的往例就是我們用奧會的會旗但是如果我們有在獎牌上面的頒獎典禮的時候舉國旗並不違法所以事實上我們是會旗跟國旗都有帶"},{"start":152.231,"end":162.358,"text":"我想這個很多人可能比較不清楚因為沒有在新聞稿裡面呈現出來也就是說我們會用最大的彈性先來保障我們這些警消運動的選手大概有60位能夠在警消運動會裡面跟70國在將近1萬多位警消的人員互相做這個運動競技之外然後有增加我們的能見度我想所有參賽的選手以及帶團的這個副團長他是"},{"start":177.628,"end":194.452,"text":"第一位女性的這個副署長她也都了解這樣的程序所以我想我們一定不會以我們自己要矮化成績我們絕對不是以這樣為原則而是我們如何在國際上能夠有能見度第一然後來保障我們中華民國國旗能夠建出於國際媒體的報導那這個我們一定會盡力努力來達成"},{"start":200.293,"end":218.949,"text":"好 謝謝部長在這邊的承諾跟提醒因為我也是希望說如果有機會在國際的場合多展現我們的國旗當然就要盡量的提高我國的能見度而不是自我審查 自我矮化不會 因為我們的制服 被裝或者能夠看到的部分都會有國旗"},{"start":219.875,"end":237.967,"text":"好那這就是尤其是今年是在美國舉辦那大家也知道說其實最近包括美國的移民局就也公告說如果出生國是台灣的話就直接寫台灣就好了不需要去加諸什麼中華或者是中國這樣子多餘甚至是不正確的字眼"},{"start":239.008,"end":264.486,"text":"那这个也是美国像是美国最近的众议院也提了一个美国支持台湾的法案里面也都直接把中华台北相关的称呼都取消掉都说应该要改成台湾那既然美国都是这样子认定我们台湾就是可以直接写作台湾何必去美国比赛的时候还自我审查自我爱化呢世界行销运动会不是只有美国一个国家参加它是一个国际性的赛事团体"},{"start":264.986,"end":279.042,"text":"所以我們按照國際性的賽事團體以往的這個規矩來處理那當然美國會給我們最大的協助就是我剛剛所說的如果我們中華民國的國旗可以在國際賽事的場合裡面呈現最大的能見度的話我們一定會想辦法達成"},{"start":280.743,"end":309.121,"text":"謝謝 謝謝部長的承諾那幫我下一頁我也反映一下因為這個剛剛其實部長也有提到說在團服還有一些代表團裡面的一些旗幟可能都可以出現國旗那這個也是裡面團員有跟我說其實在肩上的這個臂章其實都還是只有中華台北奧會的這樣的一個logo那我也覺得比較可惜如果之後可以的話有機會也盡量把我們國家的意向放上去好 下一頁"},{"start":310.697,"end":328.259,"text":"那这个就是2023年的时候发生的事情我也不希望这样的事情再重演好那最后还有一个是也是锦霄运动会就是因为其实今年属为了要实现我们上一次小英总统有说希望我们的选手出赛都可以是全公费的"},{"start":328.78,"end":332.043,"text":"那結果呢為了要達成這個全公費的目的反而把裡面的一些選項刪掉了一些比賽項目包括建立包括填進刪除掉那反而讓有一些選手沒有辦法因此而受惠甚至連這一次的出團比賽都沒有辦法"},{"start":346.397,"end":350.482,"text":"那我覺得非常的可惜怎麼會有點本末倒置了呢當初小英總統在這個獸獎的時候表揚的時候的用意應該是鼓勵大家參賽不需要還要自費自價那當然是希望說最好是公費公價"},{"start":362.997,"end":386.025,"text":"讓這些選手到國際上可以替台灣來爭光那沒有想到今年這個新制下去反而讓很多原本至少自費都還可以出席的選手連出席的機會都沒有了我希望這個部長可以回去了解這個警政署內部在選拔然後在提供這些比賽的運動項目的時候是不是有這樣的狀況如果有的話拜託下一次如果有機會盡量公平一點"},{"start":389.906,"end":410.104,"text":"那我覺得他們是跟我說這次像消防署的心智就改得蠻好的讓大家雨露均沾公費都盡量能補助到那讓這些你看他們這一次60位裡面多數都是消防署派出來的選手那我覺得警政署可能還有改善的空間這個希望部長可以了解好嗎"},{"start":410.984,"end":414.227,"text":"好謝謝委員好那最後一點時間因為今天其實要討論這個建築法那我也在這邊來表達一下我其實這幾年收到非常多的澄清案就是裝修蟑螂的事情那裝修蟑螂對我們請署長來回應好了"},{"start":426.4,"end":448.779,"text":"因为这个署长可能应该也接收到很多的澄清案之前也都跟国土署有讨论过那只是因为其实我知道说建筑法里面相关的规定也算完善可是建这个装修蟑螂到现在还是非常的猖狂我不知道说署长这边有没有更好的方式可以解决包括说很多民众他们在找这个相关装修的"},{"start":449.579,"end":453.002,"text":"工程行的資訊的時候到底是因為不夠透明或者是你們給的一些合格的名單不夠明確還是怎麼樣常常就是會有民眾疑似被詐騙就是他們找到一些跟你說很低價報價結果後面瘋狂的加價一開始跟你說工期很短結果他們給你收了九成的訂金之後就跑路了然後就把這個錢收了就留一個爛尾"},{"start":475.839,"end":484.167,"text":"那像這樣的裝修的蟑螂甚至是說說他是詐騙也不為過可是到最後告上法院詐騙幾乎都不成立因為他們說他們有進場施工"},{"start":485.976,"end":495.939,"text":"所以這就是現在法律上的困難那現在的陳情案陳出不窮近十年來大概有一萬三千多件都是這樣子裝修裝壤同樣的樣態真的非常的可惡那我不知道說署長這邊目前有沒有比較好的方式或者是建議如果要修建主法應該要怎麼樣去防範呢"},{"start":507.483,"end":521.802,"text":"公文報告啦因為的確因為在室內裝修業來講他有他很明確的職業範圍那現在坊間比較大的一個狀況就是說當然因為這也有辦法而且我們也有合格的這個"},{"start":523.464,"end":546.055,"text":"合格業者的名單其實網路上都有那當然一方面 大概民眾比較不習慣說不知道說應該要去找合法的業者因為往往這些很多這種四莊蟑螂他這一些部分都是因為他沒有合格的名單他可能有些名氣或在地方上被認為是他裝修比較價格比較合理那比較會低價報"},{"start":547.896,"end":564.884,"text":"但是他往往沒有經過合法的程序也沒有合法的設立公司才會有這樣一個財務的部分那所以這些都是實務上的問題他比較不容易透過相關的立法說我一定是怎麼做但是我想這一個部分第一個我們可能會把室內裝修業的這一個"},{"start":566.785,"end":586.87,"text":"執行的這個內容會在對外再說明清楚希望大家再透過合法的程序來申請這樣的一個程序第二個我們會來檢視看看在坊間有關的這一些契約內容是不是有違反一些這個疫苗消保的規定我想這一點也是很重要"},{"start":587.33,"end":609.958,"text":"因為過去比較多的爭議就在於這一個沒有訂定契約或是契約的內容不明確那這些我想我們也來檢視看看看能不能對地方來講給消保單位給民眾一些比較具體的建議那這樣他在執行上比較有所依據也比較避免在沒有簽訂合理的契約狀況下就蒙受損失我想我們會從這兩點再來做"},{"start":612.239,"end":628.274,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託署長喔真的不要再有更多的因為裝修蟑螂導致更多的受害者這樣一次都是兩三百萬可能他一次的積蓄都花在這個被詐騙上面了真的非常的可憐好不好 這個真的要拜託好 謝謝署長好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時35分）謝謝主席，我們先請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["黃委員捷：部長早。這邊先跟您請教一個最近發生的事情，就是昨天您參加了世界警消運動會的授旗典禮，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["黃委員捷：當然這是世界上每兩年一次對於警消單位來說非常重要的一個運動會，我也樂見。昨天部長參加授旗典禮，親自把國旗授給代表團的團長，這個團長也是由我們警政署副署長來代表，部長也提到希望選手可以為國爭光，來提高我國的能見度，但是就有選手反映兩年前這個代表團出訪的時候，有選手帶了我國的國旗，那時候是在加拿大舉辦，他帶了國旗，結果被我們的警政署要求要拿掉，這是兩年前發生的事情。今年是在美國，目前我得知，我們代表團還是沒有帶國旗，我們代表團帶的是中華臺北的奧會會旗，我看到也覺得非常的遺憾，我們授旗的時候拿的是國旗，過去包括2003年第10屆、2005年第11屆、2013年第15屆、2017年第17屆的時候，我們在開幕式或閉幕式都有舉國旗，但是在上一次我們去參加世界警消運動會的時候，卻被我們自己的警政署要求不要舉我國的國旗，我不知道今年的代表團可不可以，部長會支持我們的代表團出席的時候舉國旗嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們能夠參加世界警消運動會，當然要按照世界警消運動會的各項賽事規則，我們當然是盡我們的所能提高我們國旗的能見度，而且大家都知道，我們所參與的各項國際運動賽事，最大的阻礙是在中國，所以我們這次還是一樣，按照以前的往例，就是我們用奧會會旗，但是如果我們有獲得獎牌，在頒獎典禮的時候舉國旗並不違法，所以事實上我們是會旗跟國旗都有帶，我想很多人可能比較不清楚這一點，因為沒有在新聞稿裡呈現出來。也就是說，我們會用最大的彈性，先來保障我們警消運動選手，大概有60位，能夠在警消運動會跟70國將近一萬多位警消人員，互相做運動競技，然後增加我們的能見度，我想所有參賽的選手及帶團的團長，她是第一位女性的副署長，她也都了解這樣的程序。所以我們絕對不會以矮化層級為原則，而是以我們如何在國際上能夠有能見度為第一，然後保障我們中華民國國旗能夠見諸於國際媒體的報導，這個我們一定會盡力、努力來達成。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長在這邊的承諾跟提醒，因為我也是希望，如果有機會在國際場合多展現我們的國旗，當然就要儘量的提高我國的能見度，而不是自我審查、自我矮化。"],["劉部長世芳：不會，因為我們的制服、臂章或能夠看到的部分都會有國旗。"],["黃委員捷：好，尤其今年是在美國舉辦，大家也知道，最近包括美國的移民局也公告，如果出生國是臺灣的話，就直接寫臺灣就好了，不需要去加什麼「中華」或「中國」這樣多餘甚至是不正確的字眼，像美國眾議院最近也提了一個美國支持臺灣的法案，裡面也都直接把「中華臺北」相關的稱呼取消掉，都說應該要改成「臺灣」，既然美國都是這樣認定我們臺灣可以直接寫作「臺灣」，去美國比賽的時候，何必還自我審查、自我矮化呢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，世界警消運動會不是只有美國一個國家參加，它是一個國際性的賽事團體，所以我們按照國際性的賽事團體以往的規矩來處理，當然美國會給我們最大的協助，就是我剛剛所說的，如果我們中華民國的國旗可以在國際賽事場合呈現最大的能見度的話，我們一定會想辦法達成。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的承諾。","我也反映一下，這個剛剛其實部長也有提到，代表團的團服和旗幟都可以出現國旗，那也有團員跟我說，在肩上的臂章其實都還是只有中華臺北奧會這樣的logo，我也覺得比較可惜，如果之後可以的話，有機會也儘量把我們國家的意象放上去。","下一頁，這是2023年發生的事情，我也不希望這樣的事情再重演。最後還有一個也是警消運動會，就是因為今年為了要實現上一次小英總統說的，希望我們的選手出賽都可以是全公費的，結果為了要達成全公費的目的，反而把裡面的一些選項刪掉了，包括健力、田徑等，反而讓一些選手沒有辦法因此而受惠，甚至連這一次的出團比賽都沒有辦法，我覺得非常的可惜，怎麼會有點本末倒置了呢？當初小英總統在授獎表揚的時候說的話，用意應該是鼓勵大家參賽，不需要還要自費、自假，當然希望最好是公費、公假，讓這些選手到國際上可以替臺灣爭光，但沒有想到今年這個新制下去，反而讓很多原本至少自費都還可以出席的選手，連出席的機會都沒有了。我希望部長可以回去了解警政署內部在選拔、在提供比賽運動項目的時候，是不是有這樣的狀況，如果有的話，拜託下一次，如果有機會，儘量公平一點。他們是跟我說，這次像消防署的新制就改得蠻好的，讓大家雨露均霑，公費都儘量能補助到，你看這一次60位裡面多數都是消防署派出來的選手，我覺得警政署可能還有改善的空間，希望部長可以了解，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：最後一點時間，因為今天其實要討論建築法，我也在這邊來表達一下，其實這幾年收到非常多有關裝修蟑螂的陳情案，我們請署長來回應好了，因為署長應該也接收到很多的陳情案，之前也都跟國土署有討論過，只是因為我知道建築法裡面相關的規定也算完善，可是裝修蟑螂到現在還是非常的猖狂，不知道署長這邊有沒有更好的方式可以解決？包括很多民眾在找相關裝修的工程行資訊的時候，到底是因為不夠透明，或者是你們提供的合格名單不夠明確，還是怎麼樣，常常就是會有民眾疑似被詐騙，他們找到一些報價低，結果後面瘋狂加價的業者，一開始跟你說工期很短，結果收了九成訂金之後就跑路了，把錢收了就留一個爛尾。像這樣的裝修蟑螂，甚至說他是詐騙也不為過，可是最後告上法院，詐騙幾乎都不成立，因為他們說他們有進場施工，這就是現在法律上的困難。現在的陳情案層出不窮，近十年來大概有一萬三千多件都是這種裝修蟑螂同樣的樣態，真的非常的可惡。我不知道署長這邊目前有沒有比較好的方式或建議？如果要修建築法，應該要怎麼樣去防範呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為在室內裝修業來講，它有它很明確的執業範圍，現在坊間比較大的一個狀況是，這些有辦法，而且我們也有合格業者的名單，網路上都有，一方面大概民眾比較不習慣應該要去找合法的業者，因為很多這種室裝蟑螂都不在合格的名單上，他可能有些名氣，或在地方上被認為裝修價格比較合理，比較會低價報，但是它往往沒有經過合法的程序，也沒有合法的設立公司，才會有這樣一個財務的部分，所以這些都是實務上指引的問題，它比較不容易透過相關的立法說一定是怎麼做。但是我想這一個部分，第一個，我們可能會把室內裝修業執行的內容對外再說明清楚，希望大家透過合法的程序來申請這樣的一個程序。第二個，我們會來檢視看看坊間有關的這些契約內容是不是有違反一些消保的規定，我想這一點也是很重要，因為過去比較多的爭議就在於沒有訂定契約或者是契約的內容不明確，這些我想我們也來檢視看看，看能不能……對地方來講，給消保單位、給民眾一些比較具體的建議，這樣它在執行上比較有所依據，也比較避免在沒有簽訂合理契約的狀況下蒙受損失，我想我們會從這兩點再來做。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託署長，真的不要再有更多因為裝修蟑螂導致的受害者，這樣一次都是兩、三百萬，可能他一生的積蓄都花在被詐騙上面了，真的非常可憐，好不好？這個真的要拜託，謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。","報告委員會，我們在許宇甄委員質詢完後休息3分鐘。","下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162207","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162207","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98282c091a897f6383be55f40b4dcc086d9fec695a437ff13aedd354354e2f17e0785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:25:30 - 10:35:34","影片長度":"00:10:04","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T10:25:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T10:35:34+08:00","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.27971875,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.35409375,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.969718750000002,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.34909375,"end":16.500968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.500968750000002,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.344718750000002,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.41221875,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.88471875,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.90534375,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.394718750000003,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.64784375,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.985343750000002,"end":22.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.06971875,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.62659375,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.836593750000002,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.89846875,"end":46.234718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.62284375,"end":91.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.03346875000001,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.53534375000001,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.96909375,"end":115.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.67096875000001,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.91971875,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.93221875,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.14284375000001,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.55159375000001,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.19221875,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.69409375,"end":131.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.48721875,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.68971875,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.33096875,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.74846875,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.53346875,"end":167.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.03846875000002,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.04596875000001,"end":210.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.66471875000002,"end":237.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.69846875000002,"end":238.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.41971875000002,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.84159375000002,"end":242.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.02284375000002,"end":241.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.92971875,"end":259.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.65721875,"end":264.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.39971875000003,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.63159375000004,"end":263.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.10784375000003,"end":307.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.12284375,"end":276.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.94909375000003,"end":323.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.54596875000004,"end":343.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.28534375000004,"end":369.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.02846875,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.75346875,"end":372.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.61409375000005,"end":389.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.11784375,"end":401.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.55909375000005,"end":522.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.57159375000003,"end":401.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.85221875,"end":572.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.9709687500001,"end":574.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.01721875,"end":574.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.03409375,"end":589.9978437500001},{"speaker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我有請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長 園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長原住民組周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下 但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下 謝謝"},{"start":29.094,"end":46.004,"text":"原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系"},{"start":46.724,"end":68.317,"text":"而國民政府來台灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住"},{"start":68.997,"end":90.973,"text":"所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建屋都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家"},{"start":92.234,"end":115.12,"text":"為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕"},{"start":116.727,"end":122.873,"text":"署長 組長 還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下"},{"start":129.544,"end":156.622,"text":"主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90%"},{"start":159.604,"end":168.947,"text":"包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市"},{"start":180.911,"end":207.099,"text":"土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃特定區域法等等20多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限"},{"start":210.64,"end":210.8,"text":"好然後"},{"start":240.018,"end":254.56,"text":"我們請署長最好 部長可以先休息感謝委員 那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法"},{"start":255.801,"end":263.585,"text":"這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則"},{"start":272.53,"end":291.518,"text":"那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面"},{"start":292.638,"end":311.653,"text":"可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫"},{"start":312.393,"end":327.054,"text":"有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的"},{"start":327.495,"end":341.746,"text":"沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們"},{"start":352.854,"end":369.662,"text":"可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了 謝謝劉部長有請"},{"start":372.659,"end":386.955,"text":"好 部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程"},{"start":389.338,"end":390.059,"text":"新竹縣和台中市的做法我認為是值得肯定的"},{"start":409.341,"end":428.203,"text":"他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍"},{"start":429.324,"end":438.914,"text":"第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉"},{"start":444.48,"end":452.926,"text":"有遼望台有涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府他根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展他是非常零星片段的他還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長"},{"start":475,"end":479.063,"text":"這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法"},{"start":496.295,"end":518.67,"text":"並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧"},{"start":523.047,"end":547.977,"text":"報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭"},{"start":548.757,"end":568.448,"text":"它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考"},{"start":569.449,"end":597.407,"text":"然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好 我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土計劃法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎 請問署長可以嗎好 我們可以來處理好 謝謝所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持 謝謝"},{"start":601.337,"end":601.964,"text":"謝謝高清數美委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時25分）謝謝召委，有請管理署署長，還有建築管理組組長、原民會公共建設處副處長。"],["主席：吳署長、原民會周副處長。"],["高金委員素梅：對，還有建築管理組陳組長。"],["主席：好，有請。"],["高金委員素梅：請部長先休息一下，但是希望你能夠仔細聆聽一下，謝謝。","原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了，我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情，早在國民政府來臺之前，我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住，還有我們自己的生活體系，而國民政府來臺灣之後陸續以所謂的建築法，還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規，以非原住民的生活方式，然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區，全然不顧上面早已經有人居住，所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地。如果以蘭嶼為例，全島大概有95%的土地跟建物都是不合法使用的，但是這些人早就已經在這裡世居好久了，也早已經建屋成家，為什麼會這樣呢？因為我們全島超過九成被亂劃為林業用地。當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的，現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建照，90%以上全部都遭拒絕。署長、組長還有我們的副處長，你們都知道這件事吧！我們請原民會先發表一下。"],["周副處長錫蔚：主席還有委員……"],["高金委員素梅：我講的對不對？"],["周副處長錫蔚：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，蘭嶼不是例外，這幾乎是原鄉普遍的現象。過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙、非常的武斷，這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子、不能夠登記、不能夠繼承，長年以來原住民土地的違建率高達90%，包括我們的鄉公所、代表處、教育的建築物全部都是違建，這不是我們族人的錯啊！這是制度設計壓迫的結果啊！目前我們原住民有55個原鄉、12個縣市，土地除了受到國土計畫法的規範，同時還受限於所謂的國家公園法、都市計畫、特定區域法等等二十多種的法規，層層的限制與重疊的衝突。中央法規沒有鬆綁，地方政府執行根本就是無所適從，這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住，卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限。我們本來期待原住民族土地使用管制規則能夠通盤的解決，可是非常的遺憾，這項規則草案卻因為國土計畫法的修正草案溝通不足，難以準時上路，我們的族人又要再等6年。請問部長，針對原鄉長期以來的困擾，現在有什麼具體的解決方案？請您簡單的說明。我們請署長就好，部長可以先休息。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。其實委員在去年國土計畫法討論的時候，委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區建築的一個合法做法，我想這部分在國土計畫也有在持續努力當中……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，現在已經延宕6年了，我們不能再等6年啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，但是我想相關的內容都有討論。我瞭解，所以就有關建築管理的部分，其實上次有跟委員報告過，建築法第九十九條本來就有一些簡化的原則，也經委員上次垂詢過，我們有正式做過調查，現在至少6個縣市有訂定關於原住民建築的部分。但是的確因為調查起來，有些原住民地區並不屬於偏遠，有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的，過去的做法是在都市計畫裡面，可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制規則，還有相關的建築規則。有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂，所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後，本來也請各縣市政府回去再研究看看，就有關原住民的部分，是有需要透過哪些？比如有些是都市計畫，有些是偏遠地區的建築規則要去訂，這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂，我們每年度都會來檢視，看看地方政府的作法。"],["高金委員素梅：好，署長您所說的正是我今天想要就教您的，沒錯，建築法第九十九條之一有明定規定，都市計畫法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物，可以予以簡化管理，並且授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法，然後報內政部核定。理論上是給族人一條活路，可是您剛剛講目前只有6個縣市有簡化的規範。請問一下，是不是我們可以明確要求各縣市應該要儘速訂定簡化的管理辦法？這已經是法律授權的，難道內政部完全都不做統籌，不給指導嗎？現在我要請部長上臺了，謝謝。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["高金委員素梅：好，部長，剛剛署長也說了，我們的問題已經非常清楚，所以是不是可以在這邊要求……縣市政府因為有法源依據，可不可以請內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們來彙整之後，根據剛剛委員的要求，在建築的簡化管理上面提出地方自治怎麼樣簡化管理，會訂一個指導的綱要原則，請他們趕快來施行。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好。我請部長也留下。新竹縣和臺中市的作法，我認為是值得肯定的，他們是依照實際的情況，提出了2項放寬的重點：第一個，凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺，高度沒有超過3樓，而且是具傳統特色的建築，就可以納入合法的範圍；第二個，只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性，而且是非供居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物，例如竹屋、穀倉、瞭望臺、涼亭等等也予以適當的鬆綁。這些規範是地方政府根據在地文化跟現況所做的合理調整，但這些進展是非常零星片段的，還不足以形成系統性的解套方案，需要中央大力的支持。在去年3月20日的質詢，我也提醒過署長，這個事情是非常重要的，可是到現在一直沒有進展，所以我在這一次要再提出來，強烈要求內政部2件事情，好嗎？第一件事情就是內政部應該要儘速訂定通案指導原則，來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法，並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵；第二個，國土署裡面應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照，要提出一份最佳的實務彙編，讓各地方政府有所依循，然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範。請問部長還有署長，這2點要求應該不過分吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告高金委員，我想您的看法我們支持，也就是根據第九十九條之一，其實各縣市地方政府就原鄉有這樣需求的話，我們本來就應該幫忙，所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內，跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來，因為原住民族自己本身像剛您提到的竹屋、涼亭，它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求，而不是有公共安全上面顧慮的話，原則上我們會同意。那剛剛所提到臺中市政府或者是新竹縣，還有我瞭解好像苗栗縣有訂定，其實都是很好的參考，我想我們可以提供給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考，然後訂定一個指導性的原則。"],["高金委員素梅：非常好，我們今天的交流非常的棒，縱使國土計畫法延宕了6年，我們希望在這6年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題，我今天也有臨時提案，希望在一個月內，可以嗎？請問署長，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我們可以來處理。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝，所以今天的臨時提案，也希望你們能支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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主席我們請部長有請部長黃院長部長我接續我們這個廖委員講的就是因應這個關稅的問題那減班休息確實這個問題陸陸續續呈現那我記得在4月份的時候那時候卓院長還有"},{"start":40.738,"end":54.113,"text":"這個我們經濟部相關當時部長也有特別提到一些因應措施那我看到就是說在四月份的時候減班休息的人數好像也沒有就是還沒有呈現出來因為當時還有一些急單"},{"start":56.395,"end":75.929,"text":"當時對於這個美國的這個如果是對外出口的話這些廠家可能還有一些急單要做那到五月份的時候陸陸續續有這樣的一個減班休息的問題出現了那剛剛委員這個廖委員也有特別提到那我想再一次的問一下就是我們部長針對這個因應關稅的這個議題你當時在四月份這個"},{"start":81.133,"end":109.147,"text":"卓院长开记者会的时候你有特别提到一些因应措施吗那现在问题确实是出现了那是不是也请劳发署这边我看到也是非常认真就是有到就是有去做一些访试那提出一些问题那我想请教我们劳动部这边针对这一部分你们除了就是有这个充电在出发的这个训练计划之外那是不是还有其他的这个因应方式"},{"start":110.82,"end":139.362,"text":"其實現在當然針對減半休息的部分幾個最主要的當然一個是充電車出發另外是規模安定措施那規模安定措施現在它的範圍是不是要來做產業上面的擴大我們有把機制給重新做了一個檢討跟設定那的確現在針對什麼時候這個包括它的範圍產業的範圍要擴大這部分我們會來跟經濟部來做研討那也就是說如果確實看到減半休息的狀況"},{"start":140.863,"end":157.115,"text":"接下來繼續的擴大的話那我們會是時候就來把這個公安令措施該擴大的範圍就幫助的範圍趕快來把它這個範疇給擴大希望能夠來支持到更多的勞工我們希望說這個時程可能要再加快一點因為也許"},{"start":159.156,"end":172.208,"text":"在這個7月份如果確定關稅確定之後我覺得這個影響可能會更大而且那個是會非常急速的所以我們希望就是勞動部針對這部分可能還要再加速"},{"start":175.871,"end":204.542,"text":"跟還有另外也再跟委員補充就剛才在講到村民在說其實我們也在做了一些檢查因為過去基本上是要這個企業自己來申請所以企業本身對這件事情的意願看起來就會變成是勞工能不能得到勞工部或者是我們勞發署協助的一個關鍵可是如果企業來申請這個他沒有來申請就影響勞工的權益所以我們現在也開放是讓勞工可以自己來申請甚至我們會主動的來聯絡勞工讓他知道你有這個權利"},{"start":206.322,"end":222.651,"text":"你們怎麼主動聯絡因為現在我們其實有修訂了這些相關的這個協議書的要點那勞工朋友他會提供給他的聯絡資訊其實給地方政府所以我們也會拿到這個勞工聯絡資訊以後來主動聯繫說其實你可以來申請那如果來申請的話來參與我們這個分署內的相關的訓練的計畫的話可以拿到這個訓練的津貼可以對於你的這個收入上面的減損會有一些幫助這樣子"},{"start":235.498,"end":264.256,"text":"那我們希望說這個可能時程可能再加快因為到七月我覺得那個時程應該是到七月可能這個減班休息的加速可能會越來越多我們密切的在監測中那剛剛也有特別針對這個勞動基金的這個部分我想請教就是說大家都非常的關心因為這個關心到一千多萬這個勞工的這個退休的這個基金"},{"start":264.716,"end":277.625,"text":"那我想請教部長因為在去年的時候我們看到這個勞動基金是收益是有賺錢的那今年一到四月份是整個虧損那當然就是說投資有賺有賠不一定都是賺錢當然就是我們要讓這個虧損這個"},{"start":284.549,"end":303.485,"text":"能夠降低我想請教部長就是說很多人會覺得在四月份因為關稅的議題所以整個股會市這個很慘這個大家都可以理解那另外一個有人說這個我們的這個勞動這個基金我們的這些基金是不是用到去護盤我不知道說我們部長你針對這一部分是不是有什麼樣的說明"},{"start":311.087,"end":330.246,"text":"我想我們還是要再說一次我們絕對沒有拿這個勞動基金去護盤那當然一些報告委員我們基金運用局在做各項的投資運用都本於專業來做我們沒有義務去護盤我們也沒有去護盤我們大概就是根據市場的情況然後來進行佈局我們沒有護盤的事情"},{"start":335.49,"end":361.828,"text":"好那當然就是這個是所有勞工關心的議題另外就是說剛剛部長也有特別提到就是說這個勞保勞保基金這個關心到每一個退休的勞工那大家也會擔心那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說勞動部政府是負最終的這個責任那我也認同就是說因為很多勞工會擔心那當然就是說政府因為有這麼多的這個勞工朋友"},{"start":364.81,"end":385.441,"text":"他就是加入這個勞保那如果說連勞保都倒了這個國家也差不多了啦所以當然政府要負最終的責任這一點我是認同入不入法這個我覺得這個可以討論那政府就是要負最終的責任因為這個影響到一千兩百多萬人所以這個真的是"},{"start":386.081,"end":409.393,"text":"非同小可全台灣才兩千三百多萬人那這個就一半的這個人口都是加入我們的這個勞保所以真的我們當然剛剛部長也有特別提到我們就是政府就是負最終的責任就是很堅定的就是這樣說嘛那另外一個議題我想請教就是說也是因為因應關稅的議題"},{"start":411.354,"end":428.176,"text":"那會受到影響勞力密集的這個產業可能會受到這個關稅的議題影響比較大那其中一個可能就是觀光業我想請教就是說之前有很多人在希望就是說這個觀光旅宿業能夠開放外籍移工"},{"start":429.438,"end":458.177,"text":"那當然就是說我們希望這個觀光旅宿業是要把自己的這個勞動環境做好之後那確實沒辦法有台灣的這個勞工投入我們才來考慮是不是要有這個外籍義工那當然我們看到一個資料我也希望就是說部長可能要關心一下就是勞動部在5月底有公布就是職類別薪資的一個調查"},{"start":458.897,"end":478.028,"text":"那住宿業房務員 就是我們這個旅宿業的房務員的薪資去年是平均30,941元那跟前一年相比的話 差不多調漲了加薪了695元"},{"start":480.149,"end":499.491,"text":"那為什麼這個呃旅宿業或者是我們的這個住宿住宿呃旅宿這麼呃這麼多這個台灣的這個勞工不願意投入一方面可能整個工作環境也不是那麼好再來就是薪資其實也不高然後所以我們希望就是說呃"},{"start":500.632,"end":526.403,"text":"今天如果要開放這個外籍移工的話第一個應該也要去考慮到是不是這些旅宿業這樣的一個觀光業是不是有將這個勞動的環境已經有提升了那薪資是不是有提升到一般的水準了那我們再來考慮那真的就招不到我們本籍的勞工之外再來考慮是不是要開放外籍根本說明確實在旅宿業"},{"start":527.935,"end":542.716,"text":"其實目前他這個低薪勞工的比例確實是比較高那這個點的確也是我們一直在評估呂樹葉的跨國勞動力的開放問題裡面一個很核心的在思考的一個問題"},{"start":543.997,"end":557.664,"text":"所以的確我們也希望說接下來如果這個關於我們跨國勞動力的整體的政策在檢討的過程裡面我們第一個都是希望他不要對本國勞工的就業機會產生影響甚至我們都希望"},{"start":558.752,"end":584.806,"text":"未來是否有可能可以讓這些跨國勞動力的政策對於本國勞工的勞動條件尤其是薪資可以帶來正面的幫助我們也在往這個角度做可能性的思考跟探尋所以就像剛剛委員說的我們不會這個一味的或者是好像就覺得如果只是有缺人我就開放我覺得倒不是這樣我們會整體思考包括這個"},{"start":586.747,"end":600.36,"text":"外國的勞工他的就業的環境包括本國勞工的這個相關勞動的權益我想這必須整體的思考那我們的這個政策的檢討也不是針對旅宿業也會是整體的這個產業我們都會來做"},{"start":604.489,"end":628.79,"text":"進一步的評估那當然接下來如果評估有相關的結論我們也會盡快的來跟社會各界來去做說明因為我為什麼會提出這樣就是說你們自己在5月底有做這樣的一個職類別的薪資調查那昨天那個證交所也公布2024年上市公司員工薪資的資訊那這個平均薪資最低的前10家公司中"},{"start":629.531,"end":646.662,"text":"就是大部分都是觀光餐飲傳統產業所以觀光跟餐飲業也許就是我們說可能就是整個工作環境或者是薪資不是那麼好所以本國勞工不太願意投入所以我才會講說未來可能就是要"},{"start":647.683,"end":661.449,"text":"希望這些連上市公司如果自己這個薪資都沒辦法這個跟其他的產業來相比的話那當然台灣的勞工不願意投入這樣的一個市場"},{"start":663.559,"end":686.369,"text":"確實在觀光業旅宿業觀光包括或者是一些服務業這些服務業的他的產業的特性跟他的勞動條件的狀態其實我們的確看到他是有跟製造業有不同的地方這也是為什麼我們覺得這部分的這個跨國勞動力的開放的問題必須有更多層面的評估跟思考的原因"},{"start":688.069,"end":712.648,"text":"我是看到連上市公司也觀光或者餐飲這樣子薪資也是蠻低的所以我才會希望部長你們在考慮引進外籍移工的時候就是整體產業的工作環境是不是確實薪資已經有調到跟一般的水準了"},{"start":713.248,"end":740.659,"text":"那我們再來考慮那確實就找不到我們本級的勞工那來開跟我們說明我們還會但除了這個跨國勞工業政策以外其實我們也希望比方說在薪資的透明化或者是我們也在思考更大程度的資訊的揭露來對於我們這些可能相對低薪勞工的比例比較高的產業能夠有更大的薪資提升的效果所以目前我們也在思考這樣子的相關的做法"},{"start":740.919,"end":748.163,"text":"好 謝謝 我們希望就是說能夠讓勞工能夠有一個好的工作環境是 謝謝好 謝謝黃秀芳委員 謝謝洪部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時46分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席（廖委員偉翔代）：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員早。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我接續廖委員講的，因應關稅的問題，減班休息的問題確實陸陸續續呈現，我記得在4月份的時候卓院長、經濟部，還有部長也有特別提到一些因應措施，在4月份的時候減班休息的人數好像也還沒有呈現出來，因為當時還有一些急單，當時對於對外出口的廠家可能還有一些急單要做；到5月份的時候陸陸續續有減班休息的問題出現，剛剛廖委員也有特別提到，我想再一次問一下部長，針對因應關稅的這個議題，當時在4月份卓院長開記者會的時候你有特別提到一些因應措施，現在問題確實出現了，我看到勞發署也是非常認真，有去做一些訪視，提出一些問題，我想請教勞動部針對這部分，你們除了有充電再出發的訓練計畫之外，是不是還有其他的因應方式？"],["洪部長申翰：現在針對減班休息的部分有幾個最主要的方案，一個是充電再出發，另外是僱用安定措施，現在僱用安定措施的範圍是不是要來做產業上面的擴大，我們有把機制重新做了一個檢討跟設定。現在針對時間以及產業的範圍要擴大的部分，我們會來跟經濟部研討，如果減班休息的狀況接下來有繼續擴大的話，我們會適時把僱用安定措施幫助的範圍趕快擴大，希望能夠支持到更多的勞工。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望這個時程可能要再加快一點。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為在7月份關稅確定之後，我覺得影響可能會更大，而且那個是會非常急速的，所以我們希望勞動部針對這部分可能還要再加速。"],["洪部長申翰：另外也再跟委員補充，剛才講到充電再出發計畫，其實我們也再做了一些檢討，因為過去基本上是要企業自己來申請，企業本身對這件事的意願看起來就會變成是勞工能不能得到勞動部或勞發署協助的一個關鍵，可是如果企業沒有來申請，就會影響勞工的權益，所以我們現在也開放讓勞工可以自己來申請，甚至我們會主動聯絡勞工，讓他知道自己有這個權利。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們怎麼主動聯絡？"],["洪部長申翰：現在我們有修訂了相關協議書的要點，勞工朋友會即時提供給他的聯絡資訊給地方政府，所以我們拿到勞工的聯絡資訊以後也會主動聯繫說其實你可以來申請，如果來申請、來參與我們分署內的相關訓練計畫的話，可以拿到訓練的津貼，對於收入上面的減損會有一些幫助。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望這個時程可能要再加快，我覺得到7月減班休息的家數可能會越來越多。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們密切地在監測中。"],["黃委員秀芳：針對勞動基金的部分大家都非常的關心，因為這關係到一千多萬勞工的退休基金，我想請教部長，在去年的時候，我們看到勞動基金的收益是有賺錢的，但今年1到4月份是虧損，當然投資有賺有賠，不一定都是賺錢，但我們要讓虧損能夠降低，我想請教部長，很多人會覺得，在4月份因為關稅的議題，所以整個股匯市很慘，這個大家都可以理解，另外，有人說我們的勞動基金等這些基金是不是去用於護盤？部長針對這部分是不是有什麼樣的說明？"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要再說一次，我們絕對沒有拿勞動基金去護盤，一些細節我請……"],["蘇局長郁卿：報告委員，我們基金運用局在做各項的投資運用都本於專業來做，我們沒有義務去護盤，我們也沒有去護盤，我們大概就是根據市場的情況來進行布局，我們沒有護盤的事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，這個是所有勞工關心的議題。另外，剛剛部長也有特別提到，勞保基金關係到每一個退休的勞工，大家也會擔心，剛剛部長有特別提到，勞動部、政府負最終的責任，我也認同，因為很多勞工會擔心，有這麼多的勞工朋友加入勞保，如果連勞保都倒了，這個國家也差不多了，所以當然政府要負最終的責任，這一點我是認同，至於入不入法，我覺得這個可以討論，但政府就是要負最終的責任，因為這個影響到一千兩百多萬人，所以這個真的是非同小可，全臺灣才兩千三百多萬人，一半的人口都是加入我們的勞保，剛剛部長也有特別提到，政府就是負最終的責任，部長很堅定的就是這樣說。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外一個議題也是因應關稅的議題，勞力密集的產業可能會受到關稅議題的影響比較大，其中一個可能就是觀光業，我想請教，之前有很多人希望觀光旅宿業能夠開放外籍移工，我們希望觀光旅宿業是要把自己的勞動環境做好之後，確實沒辦法有臺灣的勞工投入，我們才來考慮是不是要有外籍移工。我們看到一個資料，我也希望部長要關心一下，勞動部在5月底有公布職類別薪資調查，住宿業房務員的薪資去年平均是3萬941元，跟前一年相比差不多調漲了695元。為什麼這麼多臺灣的勞工不願意投入旅宿業？一方面可能是因為整個工作環境也不是那麼好，再來就是薪資也不高，所以我們希望今天如果要開放外籍移工的話，第一個應該也要去考慮到這些旅宿業、觀光業是不是已經有將勞動的環境提升了？薪資是不是有提升到一般的水準了？如果真的還是招不到我們本籍的勞工，再來考慮是不是要開放外籍。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，在旅宿業目前低薪勞工的比例確實是比較高，這點的確是我們在評估旅宿業跨國勞動力開放問題時的思考核心。在檢討有關跨國勞動力整體政策的過程裡，我們第一個希望的是，不要對本國勞工的就業機會產生影響！我們甚至希望未來跨國勞動力政策能對本國勞工的勞動條件，尤其是薪資帶來正面幫助，我們也在往這個角度做可能的思考跟探詢。如同剛剛委員所說，我們不會一味的……好像只要缺人就開放，我覺得不是這樣！我們會整體思考，包括外國勞工的就業環境，包括本國勞工相關的勞動權益都必須整體思考，我們對於政策的檢討不會只針對旅宿業，而是針對整體產業來做進一步評估，若接下來的評估有結論，我們也會儘快向社會各界說明。"],["黃委員秀芳：我為什麼會提出這樣的問題？因為你們自己在5月底做了職類別薪資調查，而昨天證交所也公布2024年上市公司員工薪資資訊，平均薪資最低的前十家公司中，大部分是觀光、餐飲等傳統產業，或許觀光跟餐飲業的工作環境跟薪資不是那麼好，以致本國勞工不太願意投入。所以我才說未來可能希望……如果連上市公司的薪資都無法跟其他產業相比的話，那麼臺灣勞工當然就不願意投入市場。"],["洪部長申翰：旅宿業、觀光業或一些服務業的產業特性與勞動條件、狀態，確實跟製造業有不同之處，這也是為什麼我們認為跨國勞動力的開放必須有更多層面評估跟思考的原因所在。"],["黃委員秀芳：連觀光或餐飲上市公司的薪資也蠻低的，所以我才會希望你們在考慮引進外籍移工時，能就整體產業的工作環境來考量，尤其薪資是不是已經確實調到一般的水準，若確實找不到本籍勞工時，再來……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，除了跨國勞動力政策外，我們也希望薪資能透明化，並思考更大程度揭露這些低薪勞工比例相對比較高的產業資訊，藉此有更大的薪資提升效果，所以目前我們也在思考相關作法。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝，希望能讓勞工有一個好的工作環境。"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員，謝謝洪部長。","有請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98283fadb7adbff8e4e55e54a9d8358219461b0714f80b9af8b570aa9f53cbca5dff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:47:02 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好 那開始的時候我就請那個劉副市長其實齁 主席長 主要就是讓你了解地方的問題你要上來啊請主席長一起來這樣就對 這樣就對"},{"start":71.113,"end":94.615,"text":"我們就請那個劉副市長表達我們現在地方這次三個那個補助館你們的困難所在你們的問題所在來好我們總召還有我們德福委員還有立法院財委會的委員跟所有委員以及我們行政院的所有這個團隊以及媒體朋友大家早安我是新北市副市長劉和然"},{"start":95.316,"end":113.577,"text":"那今天是代表我們新北市尤其是我們新北市的弱勢族群來在立法院跟各位委員跟所有媒體朋友跟各位夥伴做個報告我想一般性的補助款對地方來講是非常重要的一筆預算它主要的方向在三個部分以新北市來談第一個是我們的社福"},{"start":114.218,"end":136.653,"text":"第二個是教育第三個是一些基礎設施跟建設所以這三塊的預算其實在地方裡面是屬於我們最接近第一線的民眾的感受所以這三筆預算我們合成起來在這一次的一般性補助款三除的30.44億裡面我們的社福預算包括一些弱勢族群包括身心障礙朋友的一些津貼就高達16.1億"},{"start":138.954,"end":153.492,"text":"在我們的教育預算裡面包括一些校舍的這個設施的補助或是我們孩子的營養午餐一些相關弱勢孩子的一些照顧就高達7.6億另外一個部分就是我們的第一線的一些設施道路的養護 農路等"},{"start":154.793,"end":174.571,"text":"我們包括高灘地相關的一些設施設備的處理上就高達6.7億這30.44億其實對我們一個縣市政府來講是非常重要的而且它主要的關係人就是我們的身心障礙的朋友我們弱勢的族群我們的孩子所以在這三個面向裡面這一次的一般性補助款這樣的刪除"},{"start":176.5,"end":191.437,"text":"剛剛有媒體在問說是不是違法這個就尊重立法院跟院裡面來做協調可是以地方市政府的角色來看其實這是一種非常惡意的刪除我為什麼用這樣的字眼叫惡意其實都是行政部門我們都是行家"},{"start":192.378,"end":219.426,"text":"我們都在議會待過我自己也當了局長我很清楚統三的意義是什麼統三就是在這個議會或是所謂的立法院的刪除以後讓行政部門依照自己的施政優先數據來做一些輕重緩急的調整所以這筆統三理論上是應該把相對衝擊小影響少的來做刪除所以剛剛我在院裡面這個"},{"start":221.818,"end":236.657,"text":"裡面我聽到這筆預算是636億是由行政院自行調整如果這筆錢是在地方縣市政府絕對不會把這筆錢刪在我們的弱勢族群我們的孩子 我們相關的預算我相信這個大概是"},{"start":237.538,"end":252.207,"text":"所有的民意代表也好從政者也好需要把人民放在心上把民眾放在心上非常重要的一塊所以我從來沒有聽過統三竟然是把一般性補助款的636億全部刪在一般性補助款"},{"start":253.047,"end":277.087,"text":"其他的部門完全不用調整這是非常不可思議的做法我們在自己的市府裡面如果議會給我們統三我們這樣子是刪除我們沒辦法面對我們的市民朋友所以還是拜託我們立法院拜託我們所有的委員所有的好朋友我們沒有要選擇來抗議什麼我們也可以辦很多的說明跟民眾講說是怎麼刪除因為我們也懂大家都是行家說行話"},{"start":278.528,"end":296.347,"text":"統三的精神是什麼其實大家都很清楚所以在這邊或許講得比較直接一點可是因為衝擊到的就是我們身心障礙的好朋友我們的弱勢族群我們的中低收入戶我們的學童我們的孩子所以我要很直接的表達既然是行政院自行調整"},{"start":297.228,"end":320.029,"text":"為什麼不能調整在其他不一樣的優先順序輕重環節的項目所以這是我們新北市特別在這邊跟總召跟我們所有委員跟所有的媒體拜託這是第一線民眾非常需要的經費請趕快調整回來讓我們好好的照顧我們的市民朋友照顧我們的國人以上是新北市政府的意見"},{"start":320.829,"end":324.45,"text":"好 謝謝劉副市長來 接下來我們請鄭副市長表達以後我再來請那個竹記長來講話來好 謝謝 謝謝我們林樂福委員謝謝我們趙吉仁也謝謝我們立法院各位同仁 行政院各位同仁就像剛剛這個劉輝然副市長所提到的"},{"start":343.137,"end":363.895,"text":"一般性補助款所涉及的內容是人民最需要的內容是市民最需要的內容就是設服教育跟基礎建設我們常常聽到一句話再怎麼窮不能窮教育再怎麼苦不能苦孩子可是行政院這樣的統三就是告訴我說再怎麼不窮"},{"start":364.756,"end":379.007,"text":"也要窮教育再怎麼不苦也要苦孩子怎麼會把這兩個這樣子最重要的會涉及到一般性補助一般小朋友或者說中低收入戶或者是高齡者他最需要的補助這個項目來進行刪減那剛剛這個劉慧蘭副市長講的很清楚"},{"start":384.031,"end":407.772,"text":"那麼立法院交給行政院來進行統三其實是對行政院的一種信任信任什麼信任行政院有能力判斷什麼樣的預算的優先順序是應該要來做排序的那排序的結果是告訴我們說小朋友的津貼不重要中低收入戶的津貼不重要"},{"start":408.593,"end":429.684,"text":"那這個老人健保的補助不重要其他的預算比較重要那我們就很好奇什麼樣的預算比孩子的未來比教育的這些津貼更重要台中市政府從2019年開始每年代表市民上繳中央的稅收就1400億到今年更是超過2000億"},{"start":432.225,"end":461.237,"text":"那台中市民撇手之足努力打拼繳上來的稅的結果是我們的青年的父母連自己的小朋友的津貼都領不到中央都不給老人家要健保的補助也領不到因為中央也不給我想這不會是我們台中市民跟鄉親或者是所有地方政府想要看到的結果我想今天在場的所有縣市政府不分黨派立場基本上都一致不論手段是什麼"},{"start":461.917,"end":490.367,"text":"中央或給地方的一般性補助款這麼重要的金錢這麼重要的建設是一毛都不應該刪除一毛都不應該刪除更不用講說立法院這邊有討論說是不是有法律的增益跟保障這方面我們尊重立法院但是這筆錢重不重要這筆錢很重要這筆錢就是人民最重要的需要再怎麼刪也不應該刪給地方政府的一般性補助這是最重要的預算謝謝"},{"start":491.808,"end":518.229,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們鄭副市長還有劉副市長那個竹記長你看他們剛剛所表達的就是齁讓你們方便結果你們自行調整有輕重緩急齁結果你們就刻意的來將社會福利啦將教育啦將這些弱勢來做砍殺講實在話人在做天在看"},{"start":520.188,"end":533.996,"text":"大家心知肚明你們這是刻意的那個主席長你要表達是我也跟英國人報告因為大院刪除我們2076億那通案刪減940億那940億裡面指定刪減的部分就304億那我們必須要進行調整636億但是面對這麼大一個額度的一個刪減我們是有困難"},{"start":545.262,"end":569.074,"text":"有輕重反擊 但是你為什麼一定要把教育 把這些社會福利 低落弱勢的來砍殺但是立法院仍然維持決議所以我們現在還是循行政程序在釋憲那釋憲的一個結果在看這個情況講實在話 你們提釋憲對立法院是非常非常的不尊重因為預算已經綜藝處理了 你們還提釋憲大法官那麼大 對不對"},{"start":574.196,"end":582.32,"text":"大家心知肚明啦 從我到立法院來從來沒有這種狀況啦給你們自行調整 結果你不但自行不調整又來故意砍殺這些地方的縣市政府來砍殺這些弱勢 這是特別你們故意的我認為齁 人民會自己去判斷啦"},{"start":597.546,"end":611.742,"text":"因為立法院已經大幅刪減我們的一個預算1439還大幅刪減這裡面有大陸地區的一個百分之八十拜託 立憲這一次預算最多還有一個巡討會也是百分之九十所以其他的大部分"},{"start":612.563,"end":624.714,"text":"我們已經沒有辦法刪減了 只剩下國防 外交和教育那所以這個部分我們反而就不得不等這個做法那個主計長我從來沒有看過像這樣的主計長啦 講實在話歷任我在立法院第七屆了 我沒有看過這樣的主計長啦讓你調整 讓你方便 你把方便當隨便 而且又這麼刻意"},{"start":638.827,"end":660.897,"text":"講實在話今天為什麼那麼多縣市首長來這裡講實在話你自己要深刻檢討啦對不對聽從上議你要有你自己的堅持對不對主席長你一來整個過去從來沒有發生的再次都發生了講實在話你自己要深刻的檢討你再來你還要多久對不對"},{"start":663.478,"end":682.628,"text":"講實在話過去從來沒有讓你們方便結果你把方便當隨便然後這樣來惡搞講實在話人民真的是看不下去啦因為行政院他一個刪減的部分他就是那個是法律義務應該要支出的要給這些地方的剛剛我還特別拿法令給你看對不對好 OK好 謝謝林德偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":196,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（10時47分）謝謝。是不是邀請新北市劉和然副市長到我這裡來，另外還有臺中……"],["主席：在他那裡啦！他要站在備詢台。"],["林委員德福：我的意思是他來這樣，我再邀請主計長，這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：他不行！他不行！他是要備詢的，不可以！"],["林委員德福：這樣喔？"],["主席：你質詢，他備詢。"],["林委員德福：好。還有請臺中市鄭副市長。"],["主席：兩位請站這邊，對、對！你們站在這邊，你們站在備詢台。"],["林委員德福：我本來是想要他們來，我站在旁邊，請主計長上台，然後你們的問題……"],["主席：不行啦！這樣不行啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：可不可以叫他們說就好了？"],["林委員德福：對啊！好，那開始的時候，我就請劉副市長。其實主計長，主要是讓你瞭解地方的困難……"],["主席：那你要叫主計長上台啊！"],["林委員德福：當然你要上來啊！"],["主席：請主計長一起來，這樣就對！這樣就對！"],["林委員德福：對、對！好，我們就請劉副市長表達現在地方在這一次刪減補助款後，你們的困難所在、你們的問題所在。"],["劉副市長和然：好，總召、德福委員、立法院財委會的委員跟所有委員、行政院所有團隊以及媒體朋友，大家早安。我是新北市副市長劉和然，今天是代表新北市、尤其是新北市的弱勢族群在立法院跟各位委員、跟所有媒體朋友及各位夥伴報告，我想一般性補助款對地方來講是非常重要的一筆預算，以新北市來講，它主要的方向在三個部分：第一個是社福，第二個是教育，第三個是一些基礎設施跟建設。這三塊預算在地方裡面是屬於最接近第一線民眾的感受，所以這三筆預算在這次一般性補助款刪除的30.44億裡面，我們的社福預算包括一些弱勢族群、包括身心障礙朋友的一些津貼就高達16.1億；在我們的教育預算裡面，包括一些校舍的設施補助，或是孩子的營養午餐、相關弱勢孩子的一些照顧就高達7.6億；另外一個部分，就是第一線的設施，如道路的養護、農路等，包括高灘地相關的一些設施、設備的處理上就高達6.7億。這30.44億，其實對一個縣市政府來講是非常重要的，而且它主要的關係人就是身心障礙朋友、弱勢族群及我們的孩子，所以在這三個面向裡面，這次的一般性補助款這樣的刪除，剛剛有媒體在問這是不是違法，就尊重立法院跟院裡面來做協調，可是以地方市政府的角色來看，其實這是一種非常惡意的刪除，我為什麼用「惡意」這樣的字眼？其實都是行政部門，我們都是行家，我們都在議會待過，我自己也當過局長，我很清楚「統刪」的意義是什麼；「統刪」就是在議會或是所謂的立法院刪除以後，讓行政部門依照自己的施政優先順序做一些輕重緩急的調整，理論上這筆統刪是應該對相對衝擊小、影響少的來做刪除，所以剛剛我在院裡面聽到，這筆預算是636億，由行政院自行調整，如果這筆錢是在地方縣市政府，絕對不會把這筆錢刪在弱勢族群、我們孩子相關的預算上，我相信這大概是所有民意代表也好、從政者也好，需要把人民放在心上、把民眾放在心上非常重要的一塊，我從來沒有聽過統刪竟然是把636億全部刪在一般性補助款，其他的部門完全不用調整，這是非常不可思議的作法。","我們在自己的市府裡面，如果議會給我們統刪，我們這樣的刪除，我們沒辦法面對我們的市民朋友，所以還是拜託立法院、拜託所有的委員、所有的好朋友，我們沒有要選擇來抗議什麼，我們也可以辦很多的說明會跟民眾解釋是怎麼刪除，因為我們也懂，大家都是行家說行話，統刪的精神是什麼，其實大家都很清楚，所以在這邊或許講得比較直接一點，可是因為衝擊到的就是我們身心障礙的好朋友、我們的弱勢族群、我們的中低收入戶、我們的學童、我們的孩子，所以我要很直接地表達，既然是行政院自行調整，為什麼不能調整在其他不一樣的優先順序、輕重緩急的項目？這是我們新北市特別在這邊跟總召、跟所有委員、跟所有媒體拜託，這是第一線民眾非常需要的經費，請趕快調整回來，讓我們好好照顧我們的市民朋友、照顧我們的國人，以上是新北市政府的意見。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝劉副市長。接下來我們請鄭副市長，等他表達完後，我再請主計長講話。"],["主席：請儘量簡短，因為等一下時間……"],["鄭副市長照新：謝謝林德福委員、謝謝召集人，也謝謝立法院各位同仁、行政院各位同仁。就像剛剛劉和然副市長所提到的，一般性補助款所涉及的內容是人民最需要的內容、是市民最需要的內容，就是社福、教育跟基礎建設，我們常常聽到一句話：「再怎麼窮不能窮教育，再怎麼苦不能苦孩子」，可是行政院這樣的統刪，就是告訴我「再怎麼不窮也要窮教育，再怎麼不苦也要苦孩子」，怎麼會把這兩個最重要的、會涉及到一般性補助的，對於一般小朋友或者是中低收入戶、或者是高齡者最需要的補助項目來進行刪減？剛剛劉和然副市長講得很清楚，立法院交給行政院進行統刪，其實是對行政院的一種信任，信任什麼？信任行政院有能力判斷預算的優先順序，這是應該要做排序的，而排序結果是告訴我們小朋友的津貼不重要、中低收入戶的津貼不重要、老人健保的補助不重要，其他的預算比較重要，我們就很好奇什麼樣的預算比孩子的未來、比教育的津貼更重要？","臺中市政府從2019年開始，每年代表市民上繳中央的稅收就1,400億，到今年更是超過2,000億，臺中市民胼手胝足、努力打拼繳稅的結果是我們青年父母連自己小朋友的津貼都領不到，中央都不給，老人家要健保的補助也領不到，因為中央也不給，我想這不會是臺中市民跟鄉親或者是所有地方政府想要看到的結果。我想今天在場的所有縣市政府，不分黨派，立場基本上都一致，不論手段是什麼，中央或給地方的一般性補助款，這麼重要的金錢、這麼重要的建設是一毛都不應該刪除，更不用講立法院這邊有討論是不是有法律的爭議跟保障，這方面我們尊重立法院，但是這筆錢重不重要？這筆錢很重要！這筆錢就是人民最重要的需要，再怎麼刪也不應該刪給地方政府的一般性補助，這是最重要的預算，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：謝謝鄭副市長還有劉副市長。主計長，你看他們剛剛所表達的就是讓你們方便，你們自行調整要有輕重緩急，結果你們就刻意地將社會福利、教育這些弱勢砍殺。講實在話，人在做，天在看，大家心知肚明，你們是刻意的。主計長，你來表達。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我跟委員報告，因為大院刪除2,076億，通案刪減940億，940億裡面指定刪減的就304億，我們必須自行調整636億，但是面對這麼大額度的刪減，我們是有困難的……"],["林委員德福：有輕重緩急，但是你為什麼一定要把教育、社會福利及弱勢一路砍殺？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們一再地跟立法院反映、覆議，但立法院仍然維持決議，所以我們現在還是循行政程序釋憲，釋憲的結果再看情況……"],["林委員德福：講實在話，你們提釋憲對立法院是非常非常地不尊重……"],["陳主計長淑姿：可是問題是我們實在窒礙難行……"],["林委員德福：因為預算已經送去處理了，你們還提釋憲？大法官那麼大，對不對？大家心知肚明啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：就因為刪減的額度很大……"],["林委員德福：從我到立法院以來，從來沒有這種狀況。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以刪一般縣市的部分，這也是我們不得不的作為……"],["林委員德福：給你們自行調整，結果你們不但不自行調整，又故意砍殺地方縣市政府，砍殺這些弱勢，你們是故意的，我認為人民會自己去判斷。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為立法院已經大幅刪減我們的預算1,439億……"],["林委員德福：還大幅刪減？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這裡面有大陸地區的80%……"],["林委員德福：拜託……"],["陳主計長淑姿：出國旅費60%……"],["林委員德福：歷屆以來，這一次預算最多，還說大幅刪減？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有一個宣導費也是60%，其他大部分已經沒有辦法刪減了，只剩下國防、外交和教育，所以這個部分……"],["林委員德福：所以刪教育就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是不得不的做法。"],["林委員德福：刪這些弱勢就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：真的是沒有辦法，這是沒有辦法中的辦法。"],["林委員德福：主計長，我從來沒有看過這樣的主計長，講實在話，我在立法院已經第七屆了，我沒有看過這樣的主計長，讓你調整、讓你方便，你把方便當隨便，而且又這麼刻意……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個調整是真的有困難。"],["林委員德福：講實在話，今天為什麼那麼多縣市首長來這裡？你自己要深刻檢討，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們也希望各界能夠提出解決的辦法……"],["林委員德福：你不是只聽從上意，你要有你自己的堅持，對不對？主計長，你一來，過去從來沒有發生過的，這次都發生了，講實在話，你自己要深刻地檢討，你才來立法院多久？過去從來沒有這樣，讓你們方便，結果你把方便當隨便，然後這樣惡搞，人民真的是看不下去啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為行政院刪減的就是……"],["林委員德福：那個是法律義務應該要支出的、要給這些地方的……剛剛我還特別拿法令給你看，對不對？"],["主席：好，謝謝林德福委員的質詢。","下一位請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},{"id":"162204","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162204","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98284e3cd0055125e07eb8fa27110b4cf3b31b0714f80b9af8b5462de921938ebd285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:38:54 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譬如說到底對於法官過半數評議的這樣子的一個決定的標準是不是應該要改採三分之二 四分之三 乃至於一致決的這樣子一個修改請問 複密 您認為這是不是屬於一個重大的立法政策"},{"start":191.792,"end":211.734,"text":"那個報告委員齁 因為那個中選會那個決定這個我們尊重他們職權行使 這個我們司法院我們不方便那個評論那 呃 但是在現 那個法院主制法105條是是 因為那個憲判八呢 它有關於就是死刑一致決這個是它那個判決主文所宣示的齁"},{"start":212.375,"end":233.569,"text":"那我們那個司法院是基於憲法訴訟法第38條第一項就是它那個規定說那個憲法法庭的判決有拘束各機關及人民的效力那各機關有實現判決內容的義務所以說這個法院組織法105條這個規定呢目前我們也有在那個做那個研議修法的研議"},{"start":234.369,"end":262.844,"text":"好 當然本席在這裡我要提出其實我對於憲法 憲判制八號判決是極不認同簡單來說我根本認為它就是一個違憲的憲法判決它的大法官已經把手深入立法權 介入立法政策的形成那麼這部分其實憲判制八號的判決我相信未來如果換了一批大法官的話這號判決可能會被推翻"},{"start":264.115,"end":291.982,"text":"那麼更何況這當然在德國也有不同的法學裡也都認為說不見得大法官他的這個憲法判決是可以拘束立法機關的那麼所以接下來的這個修法會如何提案那當然我本席這裡也會提案修法那麼當然我更期待的是很快就可以看到司法院然後乃至於這法務部的這個相關的修法請問現在司法院"},{"start":292.762,"end":316.662,"text":"已經有針對相關的修法有進行已經開始進行討論了嗎有沒有召開過公聽會對外召開公聽會我們是召開諮詢會因為那個範圍比較小然後內容也比較特定所以是召開諮詢會已經進行了三次了所以你們只是召開專家學者諮詢會議是但是你們都沒有對外召開公聽會目前沒有"},{"start":317.764,"end":319.428,"text":"你們考量是什麼?這個議題難道不是涉及跟我們廣大民眾權益有關的議題嗎?"},{"start":325.686,"end":351.242,"text":"我想王富明很清楚知道 憲判48號做出來之後尤其對於這個法官要不要判處死刑 自覺的這個事情已經引起了全國民眾 非常多民眾而且尤其是被害者家屬的不滿那這樣的議題上面難道不需要邀請相關的團體來進行一起討論嗎報告委員 這個部分因為我們是依據那個憲判8他那個主文所揭示的那個內容"},{"start":353.211,"end":373.325,"text":"所做的那個修法所以就是說基於大法官的決定那麼根本就也不需要再跟民眾對話民眾溝通司法院難道不需要負責去幫忙這個大法官去說服民眾去接受一致決的判決"},{"start":375.083,"end":398.389,"text":"當然也知道其實現在整個民意是反彈的然後我們立法院要提出公投然後希望讓民眾能夠透過這次機會能夠來表達自己的意見可是中選會莫名其妙它明明就是一個小小的二級的行政機關竟然還有權力來否決立法院所提出的公投這是非常不恰當的"},{"start":400.474,"end":426.071,"text":"那么司法院你们作为法院组织法的这个主管的修法主管机关你们为了要提出修法在这个议题上面本心认为说司法院还是应该要召开公听会即便你们知道可能以你们的立场不太可能会去做出跟大法官判决相违背的这个修法建议但是在这个过程当中就是一个很好的跟民众"},{"start":426.992,"end":438.448,"text":"相互溝通然後說服民眾或是怎麼樣把大法官的意見能夠說給民眾聽我在這裡是不是要求司法院應該要召開公聽會"},{"start":440.354,"end":464.7,"text":"這個我們部分我們回去演繹我要再提醒就是啊司法的這個人民對司法的信賴對司法的了解其實就是在這個相互的政策的溝通的過程當中一步一步的進行如果司法院完全不聆聽民意不去進行相關法案溝通的話我覺得這是非常"},{"start":465.62,"end":487.471,"text":"我寫一件事情然後接下來我要再談的就是有關於在大法官宪判這八號做成之後有關於一致決的部分在適用在國民法官的審理案件上面所出現的矛盾那麼依照這個你們現在司法院最新在網頁上面公告的說明未來對於可能判處死刑的案件"},{"start":488.803,"end":517.831,"text":"必須要由國民法官至少要有三個人以上以及法官三個人同意才可以判處死刑是那麼其實依照你們這樣子的一個一個認定依照大法官的這個憲判制的八號所做出來的這樣子的一個說明其實它會凸顯一個問題就是如果說未來國民法官有六個人都是做出了一致決的判死決定"},{"start":519.293,"end":547.065,"text":"然後呢其中這三位職業法官兩個是贊成要判處死刑一個是不贊成判處死刑那麼就代表說這個案子是根本不成立對不對就會變成是九位國民法官加兩位職業法官總共九票是贊成判處死刑但是一票是不同意就全盤否認了否決了可以判處死刑的可能性"},{"start":548.539,"end":563.979,"text":"我想王富明應該會知道像這樣子的一個這個評議決定做成之後他可能會引起整個社會大眾輿論的反彈那更重要的是本席也認為這跟你當時成立國民法官制度就是要這個"},{"start":567.253,"end":591.79,"text":"制定國民法官法引進國民法官是有很大的矛盾衝突你們自己的當時國民法官法在做宣導的時候還說國民法官是實現你心中的正義結果有嗎依照現在憲判自8號這個判決做成之後國民法官可以實現他們心中的正義嗎顯然沒有嘛"},{"start":598.729,"end":616.386,"text":"對不對 所以我真的認為司法院其實應該要去好好的去思考怎麼去解決國民法官的這個問題未來修法是不是一定要叫三位法官 職業法官一定要一致決的這部分"},{"start":617.895,"end":630.293,"text":"要進行好好的研析否則的話我認為這樣的一個決定基本上呢事實上就等於是保護了那個極少數的否決權"},{"start":632.315,"end":645.073,"text":"那事實上大法官憲判這八號判決本來就是在保護司法的少數暴力我個人認為是這樣那麼這個是急不妥的那本席希望說你們可以考慮這個問題然後最後還有一個議題比較簡單"},{"start":649.708,"end":670.864,"text":"本席之前有參加生命權平等協會的座談會也聆聽了他們對於強化被害人家屬權益的九大訴求那麼當然其中特別是有關於強化被害人訴訟參與權的事項那我認為很重要這本席未來也會負責任的提出相關的修法可是呢這當中其實"},{"start":672.666,"end":686.897,"text":"強化被害人訴訟參與權不見得只是一定要透過修法有些事情似乎是司法院你現在就可以立即進行改善的譬如說被害人及家屬在法庭上面的席位的問題"},{"start":688.118,"end":714.48,"text":"我想王富明或許也知道其實在過去已經有非常多的被害者家屬團體那麼以及也有一些司法實務界的人士都紛紛的提出對於整個在法庭上面的席位的安排那麼非常不利於被害人以及被害人家屬那麼這個部分其實是司法院直接修改"},{"start":715.936,"end":725.81,"text":"法庭席位布置規則就可以改善的不知道司法院這些年來有聆聽到這些民眾的聲音嗎"},{"start":727.796,"end":752.104,"text":"有沒有試圖的要去改善現在的席位這個部分因為目前的訴訟關係它還是一個三角結構就是在刑事部分檢察官跟那個被告這邊還有那個法院是那個審判者那那個被害人他當然他有他那個地位可是因為他並不是當事人所以說他不坐在這個檢察官這個席位"},{"start":753.404,"end":756.346,"text":"對 我們看一下國民法官因為現在你們的這個位置基本上 對不起 回到前一頁在刑庭的部分的話這個被害人及他的帶領是坐在類似證人 鑑定人的位置但是在國民法官的這個法庭的配置上面來講的話他現在是坐在檢察官的後面嘛"},{"start":771.577,"end":798.337,"text":"這也是大家會認為說你們當時在修國民法官法的時候有說要參考日本跟德國的制度但日本跟德國的制度我們看下面圖這日本很清楚啊他的被害參加人就坐在檢察官旁邊啊那在德國法上基本上也是參加這個檢察官旁邊或者是說是他如果說看他如果說真的變成證人身份有時候會在證人的席次但是總是不是在檢察官的後面"},{"start":798.897,"end":822.306,"text":"我覺得這個部分會有什麼困難嗎現在就是如果被害人他透過那個訴訟參加的話那會取得程序上那個地位對他這時候就會坐在檢察官的旁邊就如同這個圖就如日本的配置嗎對那可是如果說是他就是這個作為一個被害人的家屬他如果沒有參與訴訟的話那麼他"},{"start":825.56,"end":852.679,"text":"可以就是應該是他變成成為證人是不是就是他如果說有可能證人或者是說是他可能不具這個身份但是他就只能夠坐在一般的旁聽席就要看他程序上那個地位他有可能那一天是用那個證人身份出現那或者只是說就是這個被函陳述意見那但是只要他只要他就是有那個參與訴訟的話他就會取得程序上的地位"},{"start":853.818,"end":880.697,"text":"所以我想很多被害人的家属可能不太知道在程序上面要怎么去进行那么事实上我们也听到很多被害人家属团结反应他们认为在整个诉讼进行上面被害人家属说他们连发言权都没有那么更何况在位置的配置上面来讲也是凸显出对他们的地位的不尊重那么我认为说其实司法院这边应该要检讨要改善"},{"start":881.357,"end":897.264,"text":"包委員那個我們就是刑事案件在那個準備程序的時候第一庭一開始的時候其實都有告訴那個就會發一個這個訴訟權益告知給被害人跟告訴人那這裡頭其實就有告訴他們說他們可以透過那個訴訟參加來進入到這個訴訟"},{"start":901.085,"end":911.65,"text":"有沒有可能未來把他們的位置放在檢察官的旁邊或是更靠近讓大家會感覺他們的地位是平等的我想因為這個議題我希望司法院是不是可以給我一份檢討報告參閱日本跟德國的做法是如何然後可以來就現在我剛講的司法院的席位規則進行修改"},{"start":925.877,"end":942.137,"text":"提一個方案出來吧好不好我們要尊重這個被害人和被害人家屬他們的聲音總是在盡可能的在法律的地位法庭的地位上面給他們一個公平的待遇好 那麻煩一個禮拜給我一份報告好 謝謝那我們先做會議宣告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":571,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時39分）主席好，有請王副秘。"],["主席：麻煩副秘。"],["翁委員曉玲：還有刑事廳李廳長。"],["主席：請廳長。"],["翁委員曉玲：王副秘早安。這次立法院提出針對俗稱反廢死的公投，很遺憾，中選會竟然對於立法院所提出的公投進行審查，同時又拒絕辦理立法院所提出的公投。我在這裡要藉這個機會譴責中選會，它根本無權審查，也無權拒絕辦理立法院所交付的公投，這個已經明顯違反公投法相關的規定。當然這次中選會主要是認為立法院所提出的公投「您是否同意『各級法院合議庭法官判處死刑不須一致決』之政策」的這個議題不是重大政策，而是屬於立法原則創制，對於中選會，我剛才一開始就已經說它根本無權審查，到底立法院所提出的公投案是屬於哪個性質，坦白說它真的沒有權力去進行審查，更何況我們這次提出公投的命題也非常清楚，它就是涉及到一個重大政策、重大立法政策，這跟立法原則的創制其實是完全不同的概念。","我在這裡想請教，因為現在法院組織法第一百零五條清楚地規定，法官評議以過半數之意見決定之；如果法官的意見分三說以上的話，它也有一些相關的規定，就是要針對不同的意見，按照順序進行表決。對於法院組織法第一百零五條的規定未來如果要修正，我們要檢討譬如說法官評議過半數這個決定的標準到底是不是應該改採三分之二、四分之三，乃至於一致決的修改，請問副秘，您認為這是不是屬於一個重大的立法政策？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為這是中選會的決定，我們是尊重他們職權的行使，司法院不方便評論。但是……"],["翁委員曉玲：法院組織法第一百零五條……"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為憲判第8號解釋有關於死刑一致決，這是那個判決主文所宣示的，我們司法院是基於憲法訴訟法第三十八條第一項規定，憲法法庭的「判決，有拘束各機關及人民之效力；各機關並有實現判決內容之義務」，所以這個法院組織法第一百零五條的這個規定，目前我們也有在做修法的研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：當然，本席在這裡也要提出，其實我對於憲判字第8號判決是極不認同的，簡單來說，我根本就認為它就是一個違憲的憲法判決，大法官已經把手伸入立法權，介入立法政策的形成，這個部分其實憲判字第8號的判決，我相信未來如果換了一批大法官的話，這號判決可能會被推翻。","更何況，這在德國當然也有不同的法學理，也都認為不見得大法官的憲法判決是可以拘束立法機關的，所以接下來的修法會如何提案，本席這裡當然也會提案修法，但我更期待的是，很快就可以看到司法院，乃至於法務部有相關的修法。請問現在司法院已有針對相關的修法開始進行討論了嗎？有沒有對外召開過公聽會？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們是召開諮詢會議，因為那個範圍比較小，然後內容也比較特定，所以是召開諮詢會議，已經進行3次了。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們只是召開專家學者諮詢會議？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是你們都沒有對外召開公聽會？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們的考量是什麼？這個議題難道不是涉及與廣大民眾權益有關的議題嗎？我想王副秘也很清楚知道，憲判字第8號作出來之後，尤其是對於法官要不要判處死刑一致決的這個事情，已經引起全國非常多民眾，尤其是被害者家屬的不滿，對於這樣的議題難道不需邀請相關團體一起進行討論嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這個部分我們是依據憲判字第8號主文所揭示的內容所做的修法。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以基於大法官的決定，根本就不須要再跟民眾對話、跟民眾溝通？司法院難道不須負責幫忙大法官去說服民眾接受一致決的判決嗎？當你知道現在整個民意是反彈的，立法院要提出公投，希望讓民眾透過這次的機會表達自己的意見，可是中選會莫名奇妙，它明明就是一個小小的二級行政機關，竟然還有權力否決立法院所提出的公投，這是非常不恰當的。","司法院，你們作為法院組織法的主管機關，未來會提出修法，在這個議題上面，本席認為司法院還是應該要召開公聽會，即便你們知道以你們的立場不太可能會作出跟大法官判決相違背的修法建議，但是在這個過程當中，就是一個很好跟民眾相互溝通、說服民眾，或是怎麼樣把大法官的意見說給民眾聽的機會。我在這裡是不是可以要求司法院應該要召開公聽會？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們會回去研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要再提醒的是，人民對司法的信賴、對司法的瞭解其實就是在相互對政策溝通的過程當中一步、一步的進行。如果司法院完全不聆聽民意，不去進行相關法案的溝通的話，我覺得這是一件非常危險的事情。","接下來我要再談的是在大法官憲判字第8號判決作成之後，有關於一致決的部分適用在國民法官審理案件上面所出現的矛盾。依照你們現在司法院最近在網頁上公告的說明，未來對於可能判處死刑的案件，必須至少要有國民法官3個人以上，以及法官3個人同意才可以判處死刑。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實依照你們這樣的認定、依照大法官憲判字第8號所作出的說明，它其實會凸顯一個問題，就是如果未來國民法官有6個人都作出了一致決的判死決定，然後其中有3位職業法官，有2個贊成判處死刑，1個不贊成判處死刑，那就代表這個案子根本就不成立，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：就會變成9位，國民法官加2位職業法官總共9票贊成判處死刑，但是有1票不同意就全盤否決了可以判處死刑的可能性。我想王副秘應該知道，像這樣的評議決定作成之後，它可能會引起整個社會大眾輿論的反彈，更重要的是，本席也認為這跟你當時成立國民法官制度，就是要制定國民法官法，引進國民法官是有很大的矛盾衝突，你們自己當時為國民法官法宣導的時候還說，國民法官是「實現你心中的正義」，結果有嗎？依照現在憲判字第8號的判決作成之後，國民法官可以實現他們心中的正義嗎？顯然沒有嘛！對不對？所以我真的認為司法院其實應該要好好地去思考，怎麼解決國民法官的這個問題，未來修法對於是不是一定要3位職業法官一致決的部分進行好好地研析，否則的話，我認為這樣的決定基本上、事實上就等於是保護了那極少數的否決權。事實上大法官憲判字第8號判決本來就是在保護司法的少數暴力，我個人認為是這樣，這個是極不妥的，本席希望你們可以考慮這個問題。","最後還有一個議題比較簡單，本席之前有參加生命權平等協會的座談會，也聆聽了他們對於強化被害人家屬權益的九大訴求，其中特別是關於強化被害人訴訟參與權的事項，這個我認為很重要，本席未來也會負責任的提出相關修法。可是其實強化被害人訴訟參與權不見得一定要透過修法，有些事情似乎是司法院現在就可以立即進行改善的，譬如被害人及家屬在法庭上面的席位問題。我想王副秘或許也知道，過去已經有非常多被害者、家屬團體以及一些司法實務界的人士都紛紛提出，對於整個法庭上面的席位安排非常不利於被害人以及被害人家屬。這個部分其實是司法院直接修改法庭席位布置規則就可以改善的，不知道司法院這些年來有聆聽到這些民眾的聲音嗎？有沒有試圖要去改善現在的席位？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分，因為目前在刑事部分的訴訟關係還是一個三角結構，就是檢察官、被告還有法院，法院是審判者，被害人當然有他的地位，可是他並不是當事人，所以他不坐在檢察官旁邊的席位，他是透過訴訟參加……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們看一下法庭配置，基本上，在刑庭的部分，現在被害人及他的代理人是坐在類似證人、鑑定人的位置，但是在國民法官的法庭配置上面來講的話，他現在是坐在檢察官的後面……"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們當時在修國民法官法的時候，有說要參考日本及德國的制度。看下面的圖，但日本的制度很清楚，被害者、參加人就坐在檢察官旁邊，在德國法上，基本上也是，參加人、被害者坐在檢察官旁邊，或者是如果有時候他變成證人的身分，會坐在證人的席次，但總是不是坐在檢察官的後面。這個部分如果這樣改善會有什麼困難嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，現在如果被害人透過訴訟參加的話，會取得程序上的地位，這時候他就會坐在檢察官的旁邊，就如同這個圖上日本……"],["翁委員曉玲：就如同日本的配置嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是、是。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是如果他作為被害人的家屬，沒有參與訴訟的話，要他成為證人，是不是？就是他如果是證人，如果他不具這個身分，就只能坐在一般的旁聽席……"],["王副秘書長梅英：就要看他程序上的那個地位，他有可能那天是用證人身分出現，或者是被害人陳述意見，但是只要他參與訴訟的話，就會取得程序上的地位。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想很多被害人的家屬可能不太知道在程序上面要怎麼去進行。事實上，我們也聆聽到很多被害人家屬團體的反映，他們認為在整個訴訟進行上面，有時候被害人家屬連發言權都沒有，更何況在位置的配置上面來講，也是突顯出對他們地位的不尊重，我認為其實司法院應該要檢討改善。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，刑事案件在準備程序的第一庭一開始的時候，法院就會發一個訴訟權益告知給被害人及告訴人，這裡頭其實就有告訴他們，說他們可以透過訴訟參加進入到這個訴訟。"],["翁委員曉玲：未來有沒有可能把他們的位置放在檢察官的旁邊，或是更靠近？這樣大家會感覺他們的地位是平等的。","關於這個議題，我希望司法院是不是可以給我一份檢討報告，包括參閱日本及德國的作法是如何，是不是可以就我剛剛講的法院的這個行為規則進行修改，提一個方案出來，好不好？我們要尊重被害人還有被害人家屬的聲音，總是盡可能的在法律的地位、法庭的地位上面給他們一個公平的待遇……"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的，委員，我們會提出報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，麻煩一個禮拜給我一份報告，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們先作會議宣告：因為快11點了，所以待會在羅智強委員詢答完畢之後，我們休息5分鐘，5分鐘就好，讓官員能夠上個廁所……"],["吳委員思瑤：等我問完再……我問完好不好？不好意思，我跟月琴交換了……"],["主席：好，沒問題，這樣子OK。因為我大概都會抓在11點讓大家上個廁所。","那就在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後，我們休息5分鐘。","另外，就會議時間，我們中午不休息，上午的會議是持續進行至本日議程所列事項處理完畢為止。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162202","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982829ca71219d6e52ee69516374867620ce1b0714f80b9af8b5f0e74eb070a3a03c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:32:31 - 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辛苦了那昨天剛公布的勞保勞退的基金的績效在2025年的4月單月我們勞退基金虧損高達多少"},{"start":34.527,"end":57.587,"text":"勞動基金,對,勞退,1300億左右嘛,對不對,不過這些都是未實現的,是我懂,那平均每位的勞工帳面的虧損就是達到1萬大概103元,不太能夠這樣算,它是未實現的,你先讓我講完嘛,我當然知道是未實現的嘛,這就是短期的部分嘛,但是我再論述一個道理,"},{"start":58.368,"end":77.834,"text":"那另外上次三月數據出爐的時候其實我也有問過有關於投資美金的這個計價部位匯損的問題喔那那個時候是30塊左右匯率那現在掉了大概又變成29塊喔所以等於又有4%出現喔所以我就是想問說喔雖然它是未實現的那"},{"start":78.474,"end":89.319,"text":"你們在這個部分的管理和風險機制怎麼樣可以避免這樣子的虧損或者是這樣子的狀況會侵蝕到勞工對於這個基金的信心你們有什麼相關的這個機制"},{"start":92.147,"end":114.383,"text":"報告委員 美元其實它有一個長期的均勢那我們透過多元的一個策略因為我們的資產有不同的配置很多種 對所以你就說有在分散嘛我們的話國內的股票 國外的債券都有那你們現在有評估現在目前的匯率一直這樣子衝擊下去會不會今年大約會衝擊多少嗎"},{"start":117.093,"end":132.535,"text":"委員報告委員確實匯率會影響我們帳面短期上的收益但是跟委員報告這個因為我們長期這個美元的匯價其實是相對穩定的我們也做過研究就是說"},{"start":132.975,"end":148.845,"text":"你現在是相對穩定,可是其實這一年以來已經掉了很多啊所以短期的衝擊的確是嘛,短期的確有衝擊嘛那你們有沒有去做一個相關的評估風險的避免有,一定會有的"},{"start":150.766,"end":171.395,"text":"那剛剛問的是短期的部分因為目前今年到4月份應該已經顯示高達的大概損失大概是1990億左右那整體收益率大概是負2.9%那這樣子波動劇烈那剛剛也有提到報告內容有提到說現在的勞工保險基金累存的餘額截至113年12月是1兆919億"},{"start":176.517,"end":183.226,"text":"那想要請問到目前4月底的時候這個累存餘額有多少有沒有跌破一兆沒有一兆994億"},{"start":186.331,"end":201.914,"text":"依照994 依是到目前為止嘛到4月底好那那麼就是說部長依照這個目前啊4月份的勞保基金的會計報表數據這個兌換的這個短處大概就是272億5000萬左右那我們現在擔心的就是說這個股匯雙殺會不會也反映在這個基金的數據上面"},{"start":210.296,"end":220.064,"text":"那現在的保底機制也就是保證收益的這個機制啊在極端市場波動的時候有沒有足夠可以保障我們勞工實職的這個權益退休的權益"},{"start":222.728,"end":248.706,"text":"報告委員短期的波動是會受影響但是如果我們因為我們都是中長期的投資事實上如果長期來看不管是五年的平均或者十年的平均我們不管是勞保或者整個勞動基金報酬率會超過6%以上最近這幾年是都不錯可是你也知道這股市不可能是這樣子一直這樣下去那你們近期雖然短期有這個虧損但你們有沒有"},{"start":249.426,"end":267.114,"text":"去預設假設你長期或是這一年這兩年都不好的情況之下那你們會這個部分會不會去做什麼機制的調整報告委員是舉例來講就是說你們會不會因為這樣子的長期的收益會你們會考慮去調低所謂的保證收益的利率"},{"start":268.459,"end":286.868,"text":"不會應該保證收益率不會好謝謝我就是想要問這個答案因為我們擔心我們擔心因為長期虧損的話發生了這樣的事情大家都會擔心不會這個部分不會謝謝所以你有這樣的信心的宣示我覺得很好但是在這個舊勞保基金的部分其實"},{"start":288.123,"end":297.946,"text":"老保於2017年首次出現,短處大概275.38億那之後每一年的短差大概是252億然後再228億、486億、288億然後2022年的時候是386億到2023年的時候擴大到446億到2024年又擴大到655億創立歷年的新高"},{"start":311.849,"end":336.296,"text":"所以我就說了剛剛講下來這個邏輯是這樣那為什麼現在還沒有破產其中一大原因當然就是政府的撥補對不對然後剛剛也有提到的因為最近另外一個原因是就是這個基金的部分其實是有賺錢績效還不錯這個部分我本席也給予肯定那另外一個大原因就是剛剛說的這個部分那你們2019年到2023年的平均報酬大概是7.51%那其實我們都很樂見"},{"start":339.457,"end":353.066,"text":"就是剛剛講的概念就是我們當然都很樂見我們的基金投資都有賺錢然後或者是這個收益率都很不錯可是我覺得這終究是有一個上限啊你不可能天天都在賺錢嘛對不對你不可能每一年長期都在賺錢嘛"},{"start":354.616,"end":375.202,"text":"所以也很可以顯而易見的說在長期上來看要蓋過這個基金的缺口要靠這個投資是不太可能的不太可能而且尤其是今年這個國際局勢的動盪金融市場的動盪也很可能今年會是收益率近年來的第一次是負的所以"},{"start":376.768,"end":391.413,"text":"所以簡單來講目前為止您剛剛部長有提到我們目前為止這個基金之所以還沒有破產你也說這個基金有賺錢這件事情延後了可是其實我們可以看到勞保的精算負債"},{"start":392.893,"end":406.481,"text":"這個數值基本上是反映了我們勞工保險制度未來需要支付的總額嘛對不對那目前為止我們的勞保精算的負債是用前所未見每一年超過一兆元的速度迅速的增長啊"},{"start":407.762,"end":419.496,"text":"迅速的增長那這三年間金額已經從11兆500億左右攀升到14兆1000億足足增加了3兆那按照這個膨脹的速度其實這個精算的負債會在5到10年內會超過我們全國國內的生產毛額"},{"start":424.261,"end":452.189,"text":"所以這麼大的缺口其實現在也是為什麼大家這麼緊張所以不是說單單靠就是說我每一年找個錢或想辦法去撥補就可以讓大家安心的所以這就是我們今天整個邏輯順下來要講的政府負最終的支付責任這件事情是我想要問因為我們當然很多委員也都已經有提修法我還是想問我們部長的態度究竟是什麼因為剛剛前面的邏輯講了這麼多部長你到底知不知恥"},{"start":453.36,"end":479.751,"text":"像有入法沒入法目前政府的政策的態度就是政府是負最終責任的這是態度但是你沒有入法的話這個沒有辦法讓百姓安心我是希望說這個部分部長是不是可以清楚一點表態當然還有很多相關的配套必須做可是我覺得第一步要讓百姓安心讓民眾安心讓勞工安心這件事情是不是我們身為勞動部長應該要來給大家一個承諾和具體的方向"},{"start":480.491,"end":500.568,"text":"我們的政策就是這樣子那再來是說現在其實當然有我們看到很多委員的提案對於這些提案我想我們都是尊重那就整體的行政團隊來說我們認為這個部分是我們是持開放的態度那也覺得有討論和研議的空間那請問你們要接下來具體要怎麼做"},{"start":501.741,"end":521.083,"text":"所謂開放跟演繹的空間因為我們還是很希望部長可以表態說我們其實是支持的但是你可能要有一些配套必須去去釐清我當然支持政府負最終責任的事而且這個事情現在也在做你支持嘛對不對我當然支持政府負最終責任這件事情入法"},{"start":522.02,"end":549.542,"text":"對不對你支持這個概念就算不入法我也支持對那所以代表您支持入法嗎很好我覺得副部長願意這樣講的話我想因為你剛剛其實這樣聽起來大家應該我說有入法沒入法我們都是這樣做所以我當然是支持政府要負最終責任這個概念好我希望可以給勞工一個安心我們也希望讓勞工可以安心好那再來我就要再問另外一題了剛剛這個答案OK我覺得你算是公開表態支持入法這件事我是支持政府負擔責任這件事"},{"start":551.043,"end":571.828,"text":"支持政府付起財務的最終責任這件事情因為我剛剛邏輯已經講很清楚了那這一題先到這裡那我另外要跟你講一個是無薪假的來襲那要怎麼保障我們這個勞工子女的權益那目前為止共155家企業2830億人實施減班休息也就是所謂的無薪假"},{"start":572.808,"end":585.753,"text":"那其中因為美國關稅政策而實施無薪假的企業大概是20家然後827人其實較前一期統計大概是倍增這基本上是倍增所以反映現在開始對於就業市場的衝擊開始擴大"},{"start":588.735,"end":609.565,"text":"那為了減輕這種非自願離職失業勞工子女的就學負擔勞動部本來有一個東西叫做失業勞工子女就學補助嘛那這個部分是本來就已經有的那他是針對非自願離職失業勞工子女就讀這個高中職級大專校大專院校的人提供就學補助這件事"},{"start":610.245,"end":622.134,"text":"那補助金額是從四千到兩萬元不等但因為這次的衝擊其實這個東西它並沒有針對所謂被迫放無薪假的這種勞工的子女有就學補助"},{"start":623.356,"end":643.209,"text":"所以接下來因為這一波的關稅衝擊我覺得可能越來越大那應該是不是應該要提早引引因為下一個學期即將是在9月開學那本席是擔心放無薪假的勞工家庭他們子女的就學會不會也因此受到影響好那所以請問部長這部分可不可以請"},{"start":644.59,"end":661.615,"text":"貴婦回去研議這部分是不是可以去擴大因為基本上就是同一個計畫但是擴大到所謂的無薪假的家庭這部分的適用範圍可不可以譬如說將被迫放無薪假的兩個月以上的勞工或是他的其子女可不可以放入這個補助的範圍內"},{"start":665.602,"end":682.288,"text":"我還是想要說明其實就台灣的制度來說我們其實是減班休息因為有時候無薪假講久了真的會有一些勞工以為他可以真的無薪有的時候有些勞工在聽到無薪假聽久他真的以為會無薪"},{"start":685.249,"end":712.684,"text":"他對自己權益的認知第二點其實現在針對放減班休息的勞工我們當然現在是有公安訂措施跟充電債出發可以去可以去補貼他在薪資上面收入的差距跟損失我想透過這個方式那剛剛委員在講的是這個子女的這個就學的這個部分的補貼我想這是不同的政策不過我們大概可以綜合做一些考慮可是我想但是你剛剛講"},{"start":713.184,"end":731.216,"text":"對於他經濟性支持的做法對經濟性支持的做法目前主要我們還是設計是透過包括這個顧安定措施部長希望您可不可以回去就是去研修研議這個部分就是他子女的部分剛剛你有講過充電再出發等等的其實之前我有提到因為你現在看到他已經翻倍了嘛"},{"start":731.616,"end":753.529,"text":"他其實如果一直不斷的這樣下去其實會我們也密切的在我們也密切的在監測員關注他的這個目前的狀況我之前有提到包含什麼安心及時上工等等的但是我今天講的就是其實你們既然原本有這個計畫你有沒有試著去演繹擴大它的範圍到現在所謂的這個減班休息或者是你說五行假因為被迫放五行假的這樣子的"},{"start":754.87,"end":778.635,"text":"家庭的子女的補助就學的補助的方案我想要請部長這邊是不是可以去盤點然後去了解一下這樣子會不會對他們受到衝擊我想我們可以來綜合的研議怎麼樣來幫助這個減班休息的勞工可以有更多的協助我們會綜合來研可能也不是只是這個部分因為這確實是不同的情況那請問大概要多久一個月可以嗎因為我看他這樣翻倍的速度很快喔"},{"start":779.602,"end":802.844,"text":"他衝擊來的會很快喔你們是不是可以盡速我們會我們在我們在一個月好不好一個月我們一個月的時間怎麼樣可以讓減班休息的勞工可以有更多各種方面的支持沒錯請各種方面的支持然後還有包含這所謂包括權益上面包括權益上面的協助好謝謝那一個月內給本席辦公室一個這個研議的方向和報告謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時32分）謝謝主席。請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好，辛苦了。昨天剛公布勞保勞退的基金績效，在2025年的4月單月勞退基金虧損高達多少？"],["洪部長申翰：勞動基金？"],["廖委員偉翔：對，勞退。1,300億左右嘛，對不對？"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，不過這都是未實現的。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，我懂。平均每位勞工帳面的虧損達到大概1萬103元。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，不太能夠這樣算。"],["廖委員偉翔：它是未實現的。你先讓我講完嘛！我當然知道是未實現的，這就是短期的部分，但是我在論述一個道理。另外，上次3月數據出爐的時候，其實我也有問過有關於投資美金的計價部位匯損的問題，那個時候是30塊左右匯率，現在掉了，大概又變成29塊，所以等於又有4%出現。所以我就是想問雖然它是未實現的，你們在這個部分的管理和風險機制怎麼樣可以避免這樣子的虧損，或者是避免這樣子的狀況會侵蝕到勞工對於基金的信心，你們有什麼相關的機制？"],["蘇局長郁卿：報告委員，美元其實有一個長期的均勢，我們透過多元的策略，因為我們的資產有不同的配置……"],["廖委員偉翔：很多種？所以你是說有在分散嘛！對不對？"],["蘇局長郁卿：對，我們包括國內的股票、國外的債券都有，所以……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們現在有評估目前匯率一直這樣子衝擊下去，今年大約會衝擊多少嗎？"],["蘇局長郁卿：報告委員，確實匯率會影響我們帳面短期上的收益，但是我跟委員報告，因為長期美元的匯價其實是相對穩定的，我們也做過研究，就是……"],["廖委員偉翔：現在是相對穩定，可是其實這一年以來已經掉了很多啊！"],["蘇局長郁卿：對，所以它短期會對我們帳面上產生影響……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以短期的衝擊的確是嘛！對不對？"],["蘇局長郁卿：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：短期的確有衝擊嘛！那你們有沒有去做一個避免風險的相關評估，甚至解套？"],["蘇局長郁卿：有，有，一定會有的。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。剛剛問的是短期的部分，因為今年到4月份顯示的損失已經高達1,990億左右，整體收益率大概是負2.9%，波動是很劇烈的，剛剛報告內容也有提到，勞工保險基金累存餘額截至113年12月是1兆919億，請問到4月底的累存餘額多少？有沒有跌破1兆？"],["蘇局長郁卿：沒有，是1兆994億。"],["廖委員偉翔：1兆994億是到目前為止？"],["蘇局長郁卿：到4月底。"],["廖委員偉翔：到4月底？好。部長，4月份勞保基金會計報表數據顯示，兌換短絀大概是272億5,000萬左右，我們現在擔心的是，股匯雙殺的情況，會不會也反映在基金的數據上？現在的保底機制，也就是保證收益機制，在極端市場波動的時候，有沒有足夠的保障勞工實質的退休權益？"],["蘇局長郁卿：報告委員，短期波動是會受影響，但因為我們都是中、長期投資，事實上，如果以長期來看，不管是5年平均或者10年平均，勞保或整個勞動基金的報酬率都有超過6%以上。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我知道，最近這幾年是都不錯，可是你也知道股市不可能一直這樣，近期短期雖然有虧損，但你們有沒有預設在長期或這一年、兩年都不好的情況下，你們有沒有什麼調整的機制？"],["蘇局長郁卿：報告委員，市場……"],["廖委員偉翔：舉例來講，你們會不會因為這樣的長期收益，而考慮調低所謂的保證收益的利率？會不會？"],["蘇局長郁卿：不會，保證收益率應該不會調整。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝，我就是想要問這個答案，因為我們擔心長期虧損會發生這樣的事情，大家都會擔心。"],["洪部長申翰：不會，這部分不會。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝，你這樣有信心的宣示，我覺得很好。但是就勞保基金部分，勞保於2017年首次出現短絀約275.38億，之後每一年短差大概是252億、228億、486億、288億，到2022年時是386億，2023年時擴大到446億，到2024年又擴大到655億，創歷年新高，看下來的邏輯就是這樣，但為什麼到現在還沒有破產？其中一大原因當然是政府撥補，對不對？另外一個原因剛剛也有提到，就是最近基金部分其實是有賺錢的，績效還不錯，這個部分本席也給予肯定，2019年到2023年的平均報酬率大概是7.51%，這我們都很樂見，就是剛剛講的概念，我們當然都很樂見基金的投資都有賺錢，或者收益率都很不錯，可是我覺得這終究有一個上限，不可能天天都在賺錢，對不對？不可能每一年、長期都在賺錢，顯而易見，長期上來看，要蓋過這個基金的缺口單靠投資是不太可能，尤其今年國際局勢動盪、金融市場動盪，很可能今年的收益率會是近年來第一次出現負的。簡單來講，就像剛剛部長提到的，目前為止這個基金之所以還沒有破產，是因為基金有賺錢，所以這件事情就延後了，可是我們可以看到勞保的精算負債數值，基本上是反映了勞工保險制度未來需要支付的總額，對不對？目前為止，勞保精算的負債是用前所未見的每一年超過1兆元的速度迅速在增長，這三年間，金額已經從11兆500億左右攀升到14兆1,000億，足足增加3兆，按照這樣的膨脹速度，這個精算的負債會在5到10年內超過全國的國內生產毛額，也因為有這麼大的缺口，所以大家會這麼緊張。這不是單單靠每年找錢或想辦法撥補就可以讓大家安心，而這正是我們今天整個邏輯順下來要講的政府應負最終支付責任，當然，很多委員都已經有提案修法，但我還是想問部長，你的態度究竟是什麼？剛剛前面邏輯講了這麼多，部長到底支不支持？"],["洪部長申翰：我想有入法、沒入法，目前政府的政策、態度就是政府負最終責任。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是態度，但是沒有入法的話，沒有辦法讓百姓安心，我希望部長可以清楚表態，當然，我們還有很多相關配套必須做，可是我覺得第一步應該要讓百姓安心、民眾安心、勞工安心，所以身為勞動部部長，是不是應該給大家一個具體承諾和方向？"],["洪部長申翰：我們的政策就是這樣子，再來就是我們也看到很多委員的提案，對於這些提案，我們都是尊重，就整體行政團隊來說，我們也認為這個部分我們是持開放的態度，也覺得有討論跟研議的空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：所謂的開放跟研議空間，請問你們接下來具體要怎麼做？我們還是很希望部長可以表態說你們其實是支持的，但可能要有一些配套必須去釐清……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我當然支持政府負最終責任，而且這個事情現在正在做。"],["廖委員偉翔：入法，對不對？你支持入法嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：我說現在正在做，我當然支持政府負最終責任的這件事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：入法，對不對？你支持……"],["洪部長申翰：這個概念就算不入法，我也支持。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以代表您支持入法，很好，我覺得部長願意這樣講，因為你剛剛這樣講聽起來……"],["洪部長申翰：我說有入法、沒入法我們都是這樣做，所以我當然是支持政府要負最終責任這個概念。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝，希望可以給勞工一個安心……"],["洪部長申翰：我們也希望讓勞工可以安心。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，再來請問另外一題。剛剛這個答案OK，我覺得你算是公開表態支持入法這件事。"],["洪部長申翰：我是支持政府……"],["廖委員偉翔：政府負擔最終責任這件事。"],["洪部長申翰：我支持政府負起財務最終責任的這件事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，因為我剛剛邏輯已經講得很清楚了，這題先到這裡。另外，我要跟你請教一個問題，就是無薪假來襲，要如何保障勞工子女的權益？到目前為止，共有155家企業、2,831人實施減班休息，也就是所謂的放無薪假，其中因為美國關稅政策而實施無薪假的企業大概是20家、827人，較前一期統計基本上是倍增，反映其對於就業市場的衝擊開始擴大，為了減輕這種非自願離職失業勞工子女的就學負擔，勞動部本來就有失業勞工子女就學補助，就是針對非自願離職失業勞工子女就讀高中職及大專院校提供就學補助，金額從4,000到2萬元不等，但這個計畫並沒有針對所謂被迫放無薪假的勞工子女就學補助。我想接下來的這一波關稅衝擊可能越來越大，勞動部是不是應該提早因應？因為下個學期即將在9月開學，本席是擔心放無薪假的勞工家庭，他們的子女就學會不會也因此受到影響？是不是請貴部回去研議，針對這個部分可以擴大辦理？基本上這是同一個計畫，但可不可以擴大適用範圍到所謂的放無薪假的家庭？譬如被迫放無薪假2個月以上的勞工子女就學，是否可以放入這樣的補助範圍內？"],["洪部長申翰：第一點，我還是想要說明，就臺灣的制度而言，其實我們是減班休息，因為有時候無薪假講久了，會有一些勞工以為真的可以無薪，就是有時候有些勞工聽無薪假聽久了，真的以為是無薪……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，你先不用解釋這個，先針對我的……"],["洪部長申翰：這樣反而會影響他對自己權益的認知。第二點，針對減班休息的勞工，我們現在有「僱用安定措施」跟「充電再出發」可以補貼他們在薪資收入上的差距和損失，而剛剛委員提到的子女就學補貼部分，我想這是不同的政策，不過我們可以綜合做一些考慮，可是我想……"],["廖委員偉翔：你剛剛講的那個，我上次有問過了。"],["洪部長申翰：對於他經濟性支持的作法，目前主要還是設計透過包括「僱用安定措施」跟「充電再出發」。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，您可不可以回去儘速研議這個部分，就是子女的部分，剛剛你提到的「充電再出發」等等，其實之前我都有提到，但你看現在人數都已經翻倍了，如果一直不斷這樣下去，其實會衝得很快……"],["洪部長申翰：我們也密切監測、關注目前的狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我之前有提到包含什麼安心即時上工等等的，但是我今天講的是，既然你們原本有這個計畫，你有沒有試著去研議擴大它的範圍，到現在所謂的減班休息，或者是你說因為被迫放無薪假，這樣子的家庭的子女的就學補助方案，我想部長是不是可以去盤點，然後去了解一下，這樣子會不會讓他們受到衝擊？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們可以綜合研議怎麼樣來幫助減班休息的勞工可以有更多的協助，我們會綜合來研議，可能也不只是這個部分，因為這確實是不同的計畫。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝，那請問大概要多久？一個月可以嗎？因為我看它翻倍的速度很快，衝擊來得會很快，你們是不是可以儘速？"],["洪部長申翰：我們用一個月的時間研議怎麼樣可以讓減班休息的勞工可以有更多各種方面的支持。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯，就是提供各種方面的支持。"],["洪部長申翰：包括權益上面的協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝，那一個月內給本席辦公室一個研議的方向和報告，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。","接續請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162201","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162201","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982844bdc9dca737d57669516374867620ce1b0714f80b9af8b5941388ba911f71655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:23:04 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我們請洪部長"},{"start":16.027,"end":22.03,"text":"邱委員好部長好部長我想請問你根據主計總數的統計我們2024年中央及地方政府的潛藏負債達到20兆6490億元其中勞保潛藏負債佔最大中有13兆6466億"},{"start":41.448,"end":69.111,"text":"那我要這樣講 勞工朋友每個月在繳保費就像定期的把錢丟進一個存錢筒那說想說等老了之後呢可以領回來過日子但現在這個存錢筒破了一個大洞政府每年拿稅金去補連補了八年已經到今年已經快四千億了 還是補不完那我想問部長 這個是不是該修理一下"},{"start":70.783,"end":88.48,"text":"還是要等到水都漏光了我們才開始修我想其實勞保財務的問題政府態度一直很清楚就是政府會負最後的責任你要怎麼負責任當然現在其實我們有很多不同的做法其實都是希望盡力在維持基金的水位你的錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":90.141,"end":114.298,"text":"包括我們這幾年其實在這個投資上面其實也效益是不錯的那撥補當然其實也是其中一個那其實我們有一些其他的做法希望再盡力的去拉升這個基金的水位你講到撥補撥補就像我們在一個破洞的這個容器裡面一直加水你認為一直加一直補水一直漏這樣有用嗎"},{"start":115.599,"end":144.118,"text":"其實撥補這幾年確實是達到一定維持基金水位的那以後呢你這個撥補總不能說變成一個永遠都用撥補的狀態吧你的政策不改嗎我們並不是要說一定要永遠的撥補可是撥補確實在那你現在除了撥補之外你還有沒有其他的想法想更具體的做我想其實這幾年在基金的投資上面的效果是蠻好的那我包括我們也透過各種其他在包括剛才講到說我們在鼓勵這個中高齡高齡者的就業跟這個"},{"start":146.04,"end":167.718,"text":"投入這個勞保那也包括其實我們在講話納保跟肌膚的審查我們總統當然也講過啦只要政府在勞保就不會倒那我在想我看到那個我們總統他的院長他說新財化法就會影響撥補的金額那個做法是不是在就跟總統的立場不一樣啊對不對"},{"start":170.67,"end":193.609,"text":"並沒有衝突 我想其實政府在沒有錢怎麼補啊 我們的態度就是政府在你 你就沒有錢啊 那你要怎麼補不是沒有錢 是確實是會有影響所以這是為什麼我們認為現在這個新修的財化法它在分配上面是有很大的意義的對 這也是行政不斷的在緊張 我現在講的問題就是說不管財化法或者是其他原因那它有可能"},{"start":194.289,"end":216.914,"text":"未來都是會發生的啦你不能說等到發生了你再來解決再來想說要怎麼樣解決這個問題我現在講的意思是這個我希望部長你是部長這是為什麼我們之前對於這個新修的財務法一直在表達其實真的要非常的非常的謹慎甚至他可能會有政府當然會負責嘛政府會負責那你說政府負責可是錢從哪裡來你要從稅徵收"},{"start":220.616,"end":236.873,"text":"還是去借那未來是誰還是我們的年輕人來去未來的年輕人去償還這些嗎對不對這一代的事情是不是應該在這一代來解決另外你說基金基金當然這十年來這個平均粉絲面可是還是逆差"},{"start":237.974,"end":259.8,"text":"制度本身這個還是逆差只是你不改革只是想靠投資來這個來彌補年金的這個虧損你覺得這個是一個長久之計嗎我這樣跟你說明執政團隊的政府的立場當然就是政府會對勞保負最終的責任但我們也很希望國會可以支持"},{"start":262.221,"end":282.335,"text":"國會支持我們來確保中央政府相關的台政的狀況國會支持是一件事情不是說一直拿我們納稅人的錢去補啊你懂我意思嗎國會當然支持只要你有新的做法我們當然會支持可是如果你只是一直要挖錢來補這個洞你認為這是對的嗎"},{"start":286.107,"end":305.256,"text":"跟文說明齁其實撥補這當然是現在是有助於維持勞保基金水位的一個現在是有效的做法所以這部分當然也是政府表達我們負責任態度其中的重要的做法之一啊我就跟你講了嘛撥補不是長久之計嘛"},{"start":306.276,"end":320.526,"text":"你已經補了四千億了,八年了,那你還要補多久?像你講說基金這幾年有賺錢那基金賺錢不代表夠用啊你去年在那個有一個補了,我看一下你去年賺多少錢?你基金賺多少錢?"},{"start":335.816,"end":343.219,"text":"去年賺了1629億那你今年一到四月你就虧了多少錢你就虧了快兩千億啊你怎麼補呢老保是300我說基金基金賺了一千多億沒錯啊可是你今年一到四月你就虧了快兩千億啊1991億那是八個基金加起來八個基金"},{"start":365.261,"end":376.989,"text":"相應兩千億是八個基金 八個基金加起來那 勞保基金是三百虧三百是嗎對啊你還是不夠啊 我認為這個都是不穩定的 你知道嗎"},{"start":378.615,"end":399.882,"text":"那個我們當然都盡力用各種方式去維持基金的水位那不過當然整體的勞保改革你一直當然投資是一個來償還那然後又用撥補然後又說你們會負責任那我現在要的是部長你是主管單位嘛對不對那你有沒有更具體的做法你有沒有想過你想要做什麼"},{"start":401.618,"end":423.366,"text":"我想我們其實就是用各種方式那包括多元開源的方式那剛剛也講到說其實我們也希望鼓勵更多中高齡或高齡者來回到職場那甚至加入投保那都希望透過這種方式來多挹注一些基金的水位跟開源你說什麼"},{"start":425.042,"end":445.181,"text":"你剛才再講一下我說我們現在政策上面其實也在鼓勵中高齡或高齡者的重返職場如果有更多的高齡者重返職場然後其實也投入勞保的話那我想都有機會他之前投的就快領不太到了你又快倒了你又叫他回來"},{"start":446.847,"end":466.608,"text":"這是兩件事吧我們不能用你這個想法如果這樣想法那大家都不要那這其實可能對勞保的財務來說會更嚴峻啊對啊所以我們當然是希望在這裡面有更多的開源的做法然後更多種可以提高效益的做法這當然是去維持基金財務的一個態度"},{"start":468.63,"end":488.68,"text":"所以並不是說現在基金怎樣所以大家就不要來投保那是反而保持基金更大的財務上面的威脅你除了這個你還有沒有更具體的呢有沒有想過有沒有想過要解決這個問題我們就是希望透過這些多元的做法來去做維持你覺得夠嗎 這些做法夠嗎"},{"start":490.115,"end":518.141,"text":"當然都可以再有更精進的空間可是目前我們其實就是希望這些方法那這些方法在這幾年其實對水位確實是有幫助的然後呢 但是我覺得這樣子你只是延緩它破產 對不對目前是這些做法是有延緩你這些做法只是延緩那我現在是要的是要一個有一個根本的有一個想有一個新的做法你部長你沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":520.473,"end":546.098,"text":"你沒有討論過我想我們各種問題我想我們各種方法其實都你什麼時候不然這樣啦你要多久時間寫一個這個你的初步的一個想法給我我覺得我可以我們可以再做更多的討論甚至在這邊交換意見不要討論不要討論只變成一個儀式嘛那個然後又不了了之然後又再研議這有什麼意義呢對不對你是不是有一個具體的做法我給你三個月時間"},{"start":548.393,"end":557.343,"text":"你寫一個方向我想我們當然要提供給委員一些接下來維持基金所要的做法我們可以提供好謝謝部長好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時23分）主席好，請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，我想請問你，根據主計總處的統計，我們2024年中央及地方政府的潛藏負債達到20兆6,490億元，其中勞保潛藏負債占最大宗，有13兆6,466億。我要這樣講，勞工朋友每個月在繳保費，就像定期的把錢丟進一個存錢筒，想說等老了之後可以領回來過日子，但現在這個存錢筒破了一個大洞，政府每年拿稅金去補，連補了8年，到今年已經快四千億了，還是補不完，我想問部長，這個存錢筒是不是該修理一下，還是要等到水都漏光了，我們才開始修？"],["洪部長申翰：其實勞保財務的問題，政府的態度一直很清楚，就是政府會負最後的責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們要怎麼負責任？"],["洪部長申翰：當然現在我們有很多不同的作法，都是希望盡力維持基金的水位。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你的錢要從哪裡來？"],["洪部長申翰：包括我們這幾年在投資上面其實效益也是不錯的，撥補當然也是其中一個，我們有一些其他的作法，希望再盡力的去拉升這個基金的水位，這部分都有在進行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你講到撥補，撥補就像我們在一個破洞的容器裡面一直加水，你認為一直加水、一直補水卻一直漏，這樣有用嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實撥補這幾年確實是達到一定維持基金水位的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那以後呢？你這個撥補總不能變成一個永遠都用撥補的狀態吧？你的政策不改嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們並不是一定要永遠的撥補，可是撥補確實在這幾年的過程，我們確實看到效果……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在除了撥補之外，你還有沒有其他的想法、意見，還有更具體的做法。"],["洪部長申翰：我想其實這幾年基金在投資上面的效果是滿好的，我們也透過各種其他措施，包括剛才講到我們在鼓勵中高齡、高齡者的就業跟投入勞保，也包括我們在強化納保跟給付的審查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講，撥補的部分，我們總統當然也講過，只要政府在勞保就不會倒，而我看到卓榮泰院長說新財劃法會影響撥補的金額，那個說法是不是就跟總統的立場不一樣，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：並沒有衝突，我想其實政府在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有錢要怎麼補？"],["洪部長申翰：我們的態度就是政府在，勞保就不會倒。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你就沒有錢啊，你要怎麼補？"],["洪部長申翰：不是沒有錢，是確實會有影響，所以這也是為什麼我們認為現在新修的財劃法在分配上面是有很大的疑義的，我想這也是行政院不斷的主張……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那是你講的嘛！我現在講的問題就是不管財劃法或者是其他原因，有可能未來都是會發生的，不能說等到發生了你再來解決，再來想要怎麼樣解決這個問題，我現在講的意思是這個，你是部長，你剛剛講到……"],["洪部長申翰：這是為什麼我們之前對於新修的財劃法一直在表達其實真的要非常的謹慎，甚至它可能會有很負面後果的原因。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛有提到政府當然會負責，你說政府負責，可是錢從哪裡來？你要從稅徵收，還是去借？未來是誰還？是我們未來的年輕人去償還這些嗎？這一代的事情是不是應該在這一代來解決？另外你說基金，基金當然這十年來這個平均粉飾帳面，可是還是逆差，制度本身還是逆差，你不改革，只是想靠投資來彌補年金的虧損，你覺得這是一個長久之計嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我想跟你說明，執政團隊政府的立場當然就是政府會對勞保負最終的責任，但我們也很希望國會可以支持……"],["邱委員鎮軍：國會支持……"],["洪部長申翰：希望國會可以支持我們來確保中央政府相關財政的這個狀況……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，部長，你聽我講，國會支持是一件事情，可是不是一直……"],["洪部長申翰：如果中央政府的財政狀況不好的話，這當然可能會有一些影響。"],["邱委員鎮軍：國會支持不是一直拿我們納稅人的錢去補，你懂我意思嗎？國會當然支持，只要你有新的做法，我們當然會支持，可是如果你只是一味的一直要挖錢來補這個洞，你認為這是對的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實撥補當然現在是有助於維持勞保基金水位的一個有效做法，所以這部分當然也是政府表達我們負責任態度其中重要的做法之一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我就跟你講了，撥補不是長久之計嘛！對不對？你已經補了4,000億、8年了，對不對？你還要補多久？像你講基金這幾年有賺錢，但是基金賺錢不代表夠用啊，你去年賺多少錢？你基金賺多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：去年賺了1,629億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：今年1月到4月你就虧了多少錢？你就虧了快2,000億，對不對？你怎麼補呢？"],["洪部長申翰：勞保是300。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我說基金。"],["洪部長申翰：勞保基金。"],["邱委員鎮軍：基金賺了一千多億，沒錯啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我說今年……"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是你今年1月到4月就虧了快2,000億啊！"],["洪部長申翰：不是、不是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：1,990億？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，那是八個基金加起來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：八個基金？"],["洪部長申翰：將近2,000億是八個基金加起來，勞保基金是300。"],["邱委員鎮軍：虧300是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！你還是不夠啊！我認為這個都是不穩定的，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們當然都盡力用各種方式去維持基金的水位，不過當然整體的勞保改革……"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然投資是一個來償還的方式，但是又用撥補，然後又說你們會負責任，我現在要的是，部長你是主管單位嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你有沒有更具體的做法，你有沒有想過你想要做什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們其實就是用各種方式，包括多元開源的方式，剛剛也講到其實我們也希望鼓勵更多中高齡或高齡者回到職場，甚至加入投保，希望透過這種方式來多挹注一些基金的水位跟開源。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說什麼？你剛才講的再講一下。"],["洪部長申翰：我說我們現在政策上面其實也在鼓勵中高齡或高齡者重返職場，如果有更多中高齡者重返職場，也投入勞保的話，我想都有機會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他之前投了就快領不太到了，快倒了，你又叫他回來？這是兩件事吧？"],["洪部長申翰：委員不能用你這個想法，如果用這樣的想法，大家都不要，其實可能對勞保的財務來說會更嚴峻。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！你……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們當然是希望在這裡面有更多開源的做法，然後有更多種可以提高效益的做法，這當然是去維持基金財務的一個態度，所以並不是說現在基金怎樣，所以大家就不要來投保，這反而導致基金在財務上面更大的威脅。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！除了這個，你還有沒有更具體的呢？有沒有想過？你有沒有想過要解決這個問題？"],["洪部長申翰：我們就是希望透過這些多元的做法來做維持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你覺得夠嗎？這些做法夠嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然都可以再有更精進的空間，可是目前我們就是希望用這些方法，這些方法在這幾年其實對於水位確實是有幫助的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：然後呢？但是我覺得你只是延緩它破產，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：目前這些做法是有延緩。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這些做法只是延緩。"],["洪部長申翰：是有延緩的效果。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在要的是有一個根本的做法，有一個新的做法，部長你沒有想過這個問題？你們有討論過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們各種方法其實都在思考。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你什麼時候提出來？不然這樣啦，你要多久時間寫一個初步的想法給我？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們可以再做更多的討論，甚至在這邊交換意見。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！但是不要讓討論變成只是一個儀式嘛！然後又不了了之，又再研議，這有什麼意義呢？你是不是有一個具體的做法？我給你三個月時間，你寫一個方向。"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們當然要提供給委員一些接下來維持基金水位的做法，我們可以提供。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","接續請廖偉翔委員質詢。在蘇清泉委員質詢完後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162199","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162199","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98287123029420161dde55f40b4dcc086d9f1b0714f80b9af8b53309862b0372d3b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:58:34 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:58:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T10:13:01+08:00","duration":867,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.75159375,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.76846875,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.278468750000002,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.41221875,"end":18.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.610343750000002,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.141593750000002,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.83721875,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.997218750000002,"end":28.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.85346875,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.625343750000003,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.430968750000005,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.26596875,"end":36.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.56096875,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.619718750000004,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.25659375,"end":42.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.99034375,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.69471875,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.24659375,"end":52.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.91721875,"end":53.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.85784375,"end":56.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.28784375,"end":58.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.39721875,"end":60.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.76409375,"end":62.14784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.31221875000001,"end":64.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.25284375000001,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.64909375,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.99471875,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.13346875,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.53409375000001,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.43659375,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.42784375000001,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.80284375000001,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.75596875000001,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.66284375000001,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.57784375,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.26096875,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.96471875,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.48721875000001,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.67659375000001,"end":111.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.91221875000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.43096875,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.91159375000001,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.48096875,"end":118.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.79284375,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.26096875,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.79534375,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.79909375,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.02659375000002,"end":137.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.52409375000002,"end":139.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.26221875000002,"end":141.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.30409375000002,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.84409375,"end":144.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.81846875000002,"end":145.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.96159375000002,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.9572187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start":215.52,"end":222.865,"text":"我感覺看起來,這國家怎麼幫助北省什麼啦所以在這裏面的過程當中,保證你有什麼好的意見,讓這裡的北省年輕人想要買房子,不可以再封,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼方便啦說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽,說得這麼難聽"},{"start":244.458,"end":249.682,"text":"所以保證在這裡我重點要講到四分之一你如何要讓百姓知道嗎說實在對一個百姓來說有的有錢人聽到沒有什麼對一個百姓對我來說我做到百姓說的話是非常心疼的保證是不是你有什麼好辦法"},{"start":274.26,"end":279.904,"text":"報告委員啦,很感謝委員的關心啦尤其是這間的部分,一般聽說就是叫做爛尾樓啦但是呢,這19戶裡面已經全部賣掉了但是呢,他那時候有拆出一個叫做戒金信託,價金信託啦就是從我來講,沒有在裡面選定一間"},{"start":299.557,"end":314.143,"text":"那價金信託的部分呢我們怎麼樣從這個地方來拆解包括說未來可能要走到民事訴訟的部分相關的處理機制我可不可以牽起我們地政司長幫你報告一下好不好我們再來看要怎麼好的改革好不好因為 司長因為補充解說這樣啦那我要跟你說是覺得說我們未來這個環不是保障健康啦在我所了解啦"},{"start":329.429,"end":332.371,"text":"他的地域已經有第二台第三台了所有19號買的人完全沒有辦法請出任何什麼錢所以說在這個規定裡面,我們的手法裡面漸漸世代的變化,我們北省的人民,我覺得有信託"},{"start":355.28,"end":361.805,"text":"跟健相拿回去,我找小孩就好了結果沒去過,第五條的這個找小孩的時候小孩說,跟他去交代,跟我就給他娘,跟他一娘了了"},{"start":370.461,"end":388.966,"text":"市長你知不知道那個委員一直很關心這個案子所以那個嘉義市的部分已經在昨天有召開消保的一個調處那這個房子的話建案其實是已經蓋好可是實在還拿不出來那因為昨天因為建商他們也沒有出面所以以至於調處不成"},{"start":390.146,"end":411.459,"text":"那其實嘉義市政府之前也在有透過工會在看有沒有建商有續建的機制這個也是另外在處理的一條路那委員特別關心就是有關預收履約保證機制就是要怎麼樣照顧好我們買方保護好我們買方其實我們內政部從去年前年就開始去做一些相關的檢討"},{"start":412.219,"end":424.787,"text":"那因為那會涉及到...那相關的檢討到現在有檢討到什麼出來嗎因為現在的部分要涉及到修正預修定型化契約的規定那你現在說的就是還沒修出來的嘛那風雲都出來了風雲都出來了風雲都出來了 要不然再加27%這件事都沒辦法做到啦"},{"start":434.377,"end":437.139,"text":"市長,我們有研究要怎麼改善,不是一組研究兩組研究,部隊也要研究,職員也要研究,不是這樣啦,我們發生事情,覺得沒有辦法保障社會這件事,我們就要過程處理啦"},{"start":457.708,"end":462.09,"text":"你現在這樣在那裡煩人了,發動的聲聲鼓鼓都說我們應該要關心民生啦,的事情啦大家記住了,記住了,市長,說實在,我身為在家裡的妻子的時候我看到這個來發生的時候,我相信我們為了不是在家裡的妻子而已"},{"start":485.009,"end":486.351,"text":"很多地方都有,結果沒辦法,必須沒辦法啦!市長,在這裡我也知道你還沒提出啦,我先跟你在這裡談到的時候,我問你多久可以提出?"},{"start":505.209,"end":511.771,"text":"我們現在已經說了差不多了,存一些細節再去處理我老公啦!因為我三個月內,我們有一個方案三個月喔?只有三個月以來,如果發生什麼事情,他們就憑什麼不說我也是把自己的事做成這樣的案件,是不是會斷更快?"},{"start":526.195,"end":541.264,"text":"那個委員報告一下嘉義市的部分我們先請嘉義市政府協助民眾看是不是從什麼相關的法律途徑先來合理是啦,如果可以改革開放的時候可以還是可以你們看我後面不會在這裡發這麼大的脾氣啦因為說實在找的問題都找了啦這是我們覺得說我們這個說話難聽的啦,正經的啦"},{"start":555.196,"end":570.165,"text":"一定要保護健康啦所以未來一定要保護賣家的人啦我們現在的風險就是保護消費者賣家的消費者市長你剛才說三公尾你還可以提早多久"},{"start":580.171,"end":586.395,"text":"有涉及到那個消費者其實我知道啦我才不知道它有涉及這很多的問題即使我不是在這裡要幫你挖螞蟻啦它說三個月、兩個月、一個月我們負責任外省就可以負責任幫助一些人買房子"},{"start":600.083,"end":606.608,"text":"當場賣的建築可以到三天補貨啦所以市長這件事要緊好不好好謝謝委員在這我要跟我們的部長跟他討論我們今天的建築法裡面有第73條第一項的規定就是說我們這間它的建築物"},{"start":626.826,"end":630.427,"text":"能夠申請這麼多錢,但是地方為了照顧他弱勢的家庭他要去違章,要去申請,但是他那麼弱勢他沒有水沒錢,說實在也可憐所以在這個過程當中,我們台北市長83年以上"},{"start":655.145,"end":658.347,"text":"從1992年以後,有的事都沒有在認可,結果在這個過程當中,我認為如果有特殊弱勢,我們本來就要到三天後,我們中央照顧這個弱勢,出多少錢,關心多少"},{"start":681.38,"end":687.705,"text":"但是也不可以亂北部啦像這個問題當中,我覺得我們要一視同仁我們不能做爛好人啦李署長,我先跟你講一下要如何去這個問題做好全台灣合併幫的條例,來"},{"start":706.816,"end":717.051,"text":"跟委員報告,其實當時這個母法的規定本來就會預留一個預留一個就是說有特殊條款啦也就是說,我們就很了解有一些稍微偏軟啦或是說有一些地方,它有可能這個"},{"start":721.798,"end":747.553,"text":"有一些透過一個傷害 尤其是骨瘤的處啦它如果經過地震或有傷害過 它如果要停職它總不可能說 我一個停職 我的處要停卡住 還要停下來我相信我們有很多的情形是 原來這個辦法就停不住所以我們原來在這個條文裡面就是希望說你地方政府如果確實有迫切民生需要的那這一些其實就會變成說 它是本來就可以除外條款"},{"start":748.493,"end":755.14,"text":"那所以就這個部分我們也是希望讓地方政府有自己的經過自己的需要啦因為每一間市的經營確實沒工所以這一點我們為什麼在...阿那阿那台北市給他通過他中間炒九檔是阿所以... 阿那他會在一個八成覺得比較倒霉"},{"start":768.523,"end":778.772,"text":"應該這樣說啦 因為我想在很多地方他也會有一些除外條款那除外條款當然地方政府會去一時之間請請去認啦不會說一定要強制去做因為我覺得我們中央的手法是要專門照顧全台灣的百姓尤其這條是照顧全台灣百姓若是"},{"start":791.445,"end":796.79,"text":"所以我們問問,如果照顧好,既然要修緩的時候,我們就要注意,不好好的變性是一個太過親切的條款啦,好不好"},{"start":808.376,"end":815.462,"text":"因為這件事你要特別注意因為我講這樣 應该署長你做得很久了我去台南來你了解我講的問題出一台因為我們股市有正經的我們股市有正經的部分太多了"},{"start":825.111,"end":828.214,"text":"他這時候都看民生都做得好我也不需要說當這個當這個說你有遇到任何傷害或什麼的時候你就要過整個課長庭來這始終...市長我會說這樣你要去相公的主委我們要修的選不要覺得說有問題"},{"start":844.229,"end":844.469,"text":"王美惠委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時58分）主席，請部長跟國土署署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早安。"],["王委員美惠：部長早安、署長早安。署長跟部長應該知道最近嘉義市跟雲林都有發生建商蓋房子的問題，說實在的，我覺得我們的百姓存錢去買一間房子，以前怕自己買房的時候會被人家騙，所以中央政府有一個信託，信託裡面有五個方法讓建商選擇，不過在我看來，這五個方法都是在保障建商，完全都沒看到在買房子之後，萬一建商倒閉或是建商沒錢可以蓋的時候，政府要如何幫助我們的百姓？尤其這五個方法不是買房子的人選擇的，而是建商自己選擇的。","尤其嘉義最近發生一件事，這個建商選擇用基金互相保的……在這個規定裡面，雖然我們沒在蓋房子、沒在做什麼，也知道他們建商有很多公司會互相作保，這間如果倒閉，他們有連帶關係的就都倒閉了。所以部長，在這個過程中，我真的看到二十幾個來我們服務處陳情的民眾，他們對我們寄予厚望，經過了解之後，說實在的，我比他們還難過，他們省吃儉用，有的人繳了80萬、有的人已經繳兩百多萬，我們有辦法保障他們什麼？老百姓認為建商有信託，所以不會怕，結果沒預料到那棟房子已經蓋到95%，已經要到手了，建商竟然倒閉。像這個問題，雖然我們沒辦法去管理建商會不會倒閉，不過我們的信保是不是應該要再修改、改進？我覺得這五個方法哪有幫助百姓什麼？部長，你有什麼好的意見能讓這些想要買房子的百姓、年輕人不要……說難聽一點叫做被騙，說好聽一點的是，建商沒錢、沒辦法繼續蓋，變成爛尾樓。部長，我講了將近4分鐘，你如何讓百姓清楚瞭解？說實在的，以80萬來講，有的有錢人聽起來覺得沒什麼，80萬對我來說，我看到百姓講到流眼淚，我是非常的心痛。部長，你有什麼比較好的辦法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，很感謝委員的關心，有關嘉義市的這件，一般來說就是叫做爛尾樓，但是這19戶已經全部都賣掉，但他們那時候有採取價金信託……"],["王委員美惠：就是剛才我說的，他們從五個方法中選擇的。"],["劉部長世芳：是，關於價金信託，我們怎麼樣從這個地方來拆解，包括未來可能要走到民事訴訟的部分，相關的處理機制我可不可以請地政司長跟你報告一下，我們再來看要怎麼好好解決，好不好？"],["王委員美惠：司長，因為部長這樣解釋，我要跟你說的是，我們未來的法律不是保障建商，就我所了解的，他的地已經拿去借第二胎、第三胎，這19戶買的人完全沒辦法爭取任何錢。所以我們的想法是，時代漸漸的在改變，百姓認為還有信託，建商如果倒閉，找銀行就好了，結果沒想到銀行卻說：他蓋到哪裡，我們就讓他領了，把錢領光光了。司長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["林司長家正：是。委員一直很關心這個案子，所以嘉義市已經在昨天召開消保的調處，這個房子的建案其實已經蓋好了，可是使照還拿不出來，昨天因為建商也沒有出面，以致於調處不成，其實嘉義市政府之前也曾透過公會在看有沒有建商有續建的機制，這也是另外在處理的一條路。","委員特別關心有關預售屋履約保證機制，就是要怎麼樣照顧好我們買方、保護好我們買方，其實我們內政部從去年、前年就開始去做一些相關的檢討，因為那會涉及到……"],["王委員美惠：做了相關的檢討，到現在有檢討什麼出來嗎？"],["林司長家正：有，因為現在的部分涉及到修正預售屋定型化契約的規定。"],["王委員美惠：你現在這樣說就是還沒修出來嘛！"],["林司長家正：方向都出來了、方向都出來了。"],["王委員美惠：方向都出來了？不過對嘉義市發生的這件事都沒有幫助，司長。"],["林司長家正：嘉義市的建案……"],["王委員美惠：我們有去研究要怎麼改善，不是說一句研究、兩句研究，半年也要研究、一年也要研究，不是這樣啦！一旦發生事情，如果覺得沒辦法保障到消費者的時候，我們就要趕快處理，對不對？你現在這樣等於落人口實，別黨口口聲聲說我們應該關心民生的事情，結果呢？司長，說實在的，我身為嘉義市的民代，我看到發生這個事情的時候，我相信爛尾樓不是只有嘉義市有而已，其實很多地方都有，但是百姓真的沒辦法了啦！司長，我也知道你還沒提出來，本席跟你在這裡探討，你多久可以提出？"],["林司長家正：我們現在已經說得差不多了，剩一些細節還要處理。"],["王委員美惠：多久？"],["林司長家正：委員，請給我們三個月的時間，我們會有個方案出來。"],["王委員美惠：三個月？"],["林司長家正：是。"],["王委員美惠：三個月以內如果再發生什麼事情，不就只能鼻子摸一摸的說我也是跟嘉義市一樣的這些案件？所以是不是可以再快一點？"],["林司長家正：委員，報告一下，關於嘉義市的部分，我們先請嘉義市政府協助民眾，看是不是從什麼相關的法律途徑先來處理。"],["王委員美惠：司長，如果問題可以解決，讓他們拿錢回來還是可以進去住，我王美惠不會在這裡發這麼大的脾氣啦！因為說實在的，該找的問題都找了啦，只是我們會覺得，說難聽一點，這個是訂假的、訂來保護建商的啦！所以未來一定要訂定保護買房子的人的規定。"],["林司長家正：我們現在的方向就是保護消費者、買房子的消費者。"],["王委員美惠：司長，你剛剛說三個月，你可以再提早多久？"],["林司長家正：兩個月，因為這有涉及到消費者……"],["王委員美惠：我知道啦！我怎麼會不知道有涉及這麼大的問題？我不是在這裡跟你討價還價，你說三個月、兩個月、一個月，我們早日完成就可以早日幫助一些買房子遇到不好建商的百姓，就可以幫忙他們、保護他們，所以司長，這件事情要快點處理，好不好？"],["林司長家正：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：接下來本席要跟部長討論建築法第七十三條第一項的規定，就是說原則上他的建築物可以申請接水、接電，但是地方為了照顧比較弱勢的家庭，他有違章建築，他要去申請，但是他比較弱勢，他沒水、沒電，說實在也很可憐，所以在這個過程當中，我們臺北市是訂83年以前，桃園是訂92年以前，有的是都沒有訂，不過，在這個過程當中，我覺得如果有特殊弱勢，我們本來就要去幫忙，我們中央照顧這些弱勢已經出了多少錢、關心了多少，不過，這也不能亂搞啦！在這個問題當中，我覺得我們要一視同仁，我們不能做濫好人。署長，本席跟你說了這些，對於這個問題要如何做到全臺灣都公平？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實當時這個母法的規定本來就會預留一個，就是說有特殊條款，我們了解有一些是屬於比較偏遠的，或是有些地方可能是透過損害的部分，尤其是舊有的房子，如果它有經過地震而有損害，如果要重接，總不可能說我要重接，我的房子要打掉再重來，我相信我們有很多情形是原本這個母法就訂不到的，所以我們原本在這個條文裡面就是希望，地方政府如果確實有迫切民生需要，這些其實就會變成本來就可以是除外條款，所以就這個部分，我們也是希望讓地方政府能夠根據自己的需要，因為每個縣市的情形確實不一樣，所以這一點是我們為什麼……"],["王委員美惠：臺北市跟桃園相差將近9年。"],["吳署長欣修：是的，所以……"],["王委員美惠：有的百姓可能會覺得怎麼這麼倒楣。"],["吳署長欣修：應該這樣說，因為我想在很多地方也會有一些除外條款，而除外條款，當然地方政府會依實際情形去認定，不會說一定要強制去做。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我覺得我們中央的修法是要專門照顧全臺灣的百姓，尤其這一條是要照顧全臺灣的百姓、弱勢族群，所以我們希望能夠照顧得更好，既然我們要修法就要注意，不要讓它變成一個太過隨便立法的條款，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個部分我們會特別注意。"],["王委員美惠：這件事你要特別注意，我這樣說，署長也做了那麼久，又是來自臺南，你應該了解我說的問題是出在哪裡。"],["吳署長欣修：我了解，因為我們舊有增建的部分太多了，這確實都跟民生結合在一起。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["吳署長欣修：也不需要說當他遇到任何損害或什麼的時候就要整個打掉重來，這是很麻煩的事情。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我跟你說，你要非常注意。"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["王委員美惠：我們在修法時候，不要覺得說有問題……"],["吳署長欣修：我了解，當然今天如果是遇到有公共安全危險的，當然我們還是要……"],["王委員美惠：重點就在這裡。"],["吳署長欣修：我們也是堅守那個原則。"],["王委員美惠：好，以上，署長，這個要注意喔！"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。爛尾樓的問題希望內政部儘速來做研議，我們不排除到時候要用專報的方式來處理。","下一位請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162198","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162198","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982852b04628f4b5590955f40b4dcc086d9f1b0714f80b9af8b52368db663b262ab65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:44:32 - 09:58:24","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:44:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:58:24+08:00","duration":832,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.59534375,"end":7.810343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.41784375,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.396593750000001,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.45534375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.77971875,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.90596875,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.86346875,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.090968750000002,"end":21.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.035968750000002,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.64659375,"end":30.844718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.48596875,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":42.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.58534375,"end":44.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.93534375,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.61409375,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.204093750000006,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.11534375,"end":57.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.77721875,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.67534375,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.37096875,"end":69.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.52221875000001,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.95471875000001,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.58221875000001,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.95284375,"end":96.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.83846875,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.54284375,"end":110.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.37659375000001,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.60409375,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.66659375,"end":120.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.73784375000001,"end":124.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.05784375,"end":157.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.60971875,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.44846875000002,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.78284375,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.52096875,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.78159375,"end":193.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.89096875,"end":211.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.54409375,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.31534375,"end":205.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.42034375,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.35659375,"end":211.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.47471875000002,"end":213.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.54221875000002,"end":232.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.21409375000002,"end":241.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.81596875000002,"end":252.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.19409375,"end":267.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.46159375,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.57534375,"end":272.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.76471875000004,"end":286.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.17596875000004,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.57909375,"end":308.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.33721875000003,"end":345.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.00221875,"end":362.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.73784375,"end":364.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.71659375,"end":380.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.68034375,"end":389.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.96159375,"end":412.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.31659375000004,"end":419.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.88096875,"end":423.76221875000005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室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責當店建築物之分間隔位置變更增加或減少經審查機制"},{"start":83.338,"end":88.601,"text":"認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中 室內裝修法的25條字建築屋自分間"},{"start":99.588,"end":124.495,"text":"的分間牆的位置變更 掙扎或減少精神查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡 我們都沒有看到"},{"start":125.457,"end":150.103,"text":"跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說"},{"start":150.774,"end":173.771,"text":"涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後"},{"start":174.192,"end":182.61,"text":"我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣"},{"start":183.871,"end":189.152,"text":"但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有"},{"start":212.337,"end":241.016,"text":"我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的"},{"start":243.117,"end":263.835,"text":"但是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎"},{"start":268.73,"end":282.706,"text":"不能又說工會啦應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話那當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦"},{"start":287.233,"end":298.907,"text":"原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢"},{"start":299.673,"end":302.254,"text":"對 但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理"},{"start":322.484,"end":323.845,"text":"市場申請價最少就是6萬最多就10萬了請問這樣子的就是不是老民嗎如果是這樣子的高費用大大的影響我們小小的住宅業的業主的申請的意願"},{"start":338.81,"end":361.218,"text":"所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個透過線上申請辦法如果你沒有去改變變成是"},{"start":364.083,"end":367.626,"text":"萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責"},{"start":381.011,"end":408.306,"text":"跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法"},{"start":410.327,"end":429.619,"text":"那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能"},{"start":430.399,"end":444.691,"text":"那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係因為第一個問題你就是說工會的問題"},{"start":450.015,"end":455.077,"text":"第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業"},{"start":477.285,"end":481.286,"text":"分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計"},{"start":506.295,"end":528.766,"text":"租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是"},{"start":535.329,"end":553.463,"text":"掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛 這個就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有這個因為這個在經濟部 商業是這個地點如果你要裝修你要找哪一個你清楚嗎 三個業者找誰"},{"start":560.068,"end":570.596,"text":"就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才我就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議包括因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行"},{"start":584.907,"end":609.122,"text":"我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思真的就是"},{"start":614.319,"end":617.861,"text":"現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請"},{"start":636.511,"end":638.652,"text":"所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們"},{"start":657.263,"end":659.026,"text":"署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容"},{"start":675.505,"end":678.826,"text":"十個人民你才知道要去中修是找哪一個所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是"},{"start":691.944,"end":694.167,"text":"最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個先是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高"},{"start":709.722,"end":729.69,"text":"度的专业技术的行业却有长期就是法治的边缘制度不健全不分层级不设门槛导致就是优质的设计师无法获得应有的肯定非法施工却就是横行无止所以危害人民的生命安全"},{"start":730.39,"end":735.074,"text":"我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5行動,旁邊這樣講話,一線點點,進一步歸市的任何混亂,所以呢我們的行業的混亂,所以導致今天這樣,所以我們就是說,要希望我們國家尊重應有的"},{"start":750.146,"end":753.129,"text":"的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們製作的作業三個月內提出我們的一個"},{"start":767.177,"end":771.04,"text":"時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度"},{"start":787.788,"end":793.414,"text":"的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望"},{"start":807.495,"end":829.062,"text":"署長我們提出的問題你來解決問題不要什麼都是八郎其實我們的部分非常明確因為今天經濟部也沒有在現場所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理明確的報告還有具體的進度表才是你要去承諾大家的謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時44分）謝謝主席，有請我們國土署吳署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：署長好。請教署長，依照我們建築法第七十七條之二第四項的規定，授權訂定了什麼法規，你知道嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：委員指的是室裝管理辦法的修正嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：是建築物室內裝修管理辦法啦！我要問你知不知道？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：我想要請教一下，依據建築物室內裝修管理辦法第二十五條的規定「室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責。但建築物之分間牆位置變更、增加或減少經審查機構認定涉及公共安全時，應經開業建築師簽證負責。」，其中「建築物物之分間牆位置變更、增加或減少經審查機構認定涉及公共安全」的認定條件，國土署承諾於今年2月底前提出具體修正文字意見，請問修正文字在哪裡？我們都沒有看到。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們在1月開會的時候，當時的確有希望各縣市政府、建築師公會全聯會還有室裝公會全聯會，他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見，截至目前為止，兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣。當然，因為母條文裡面，原來提的意思是如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話，有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分，而建築師認為本來就是應該由他們，但是室裝公會是認為在有些執行的部分，還是屬於室內裝修的項目，應該是由室裝公會來。所以現在兩個公會之間的爭執、歧見是比較大，我們蒐集他們文字以後，我們內部還在研議，然後儘量再找他們來，希望大家能達成一個共識，因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們的建築物室內裝修簽證表要改成專業設計技術人員簽章表，目前的推動進度我們沒有看到嘛！所以要請問……"],["吳署長欣修：本來有一些……"],["麥委員玉珍：請教到底有沒有心要做這件事情？別人是怎麼樣的，要你們去整合嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！所以不能沒有……這件事情要去整合啊！"],["吳署長欣修：我們還是持續在推，因為兩個公會之間的看法的確是差距很大，但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工，因為建築師認為這可能涉及結構安全，還是應該由他們主政、由他們簽證，但是室內裝修公會是認為分間牆不一定會涉及，所以涉及到專業的認定，我想我們還是會跟兩個公會再來做協調，儘可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是依據室內裝修管理辦法第三十三條的立法精神為行政及專業分立，為加強行政的效率，各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全，內容由專業技術人員簽章負責。所以，請問署長，你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎？不能又說公會……"],["吳署長欣修：也跟委員報告，應該是這麼說啦，你要把它簡化的話，當然我們簡化的作業，我想原則上還是會跟地方政府去談。但是應該這麼說，簡易室內裝修的申辦，原則上還是要有所謂專業技術人員簽章才能再繼續推動，並不會只是直接線上申辦，其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦，而是程序還是不能減。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是現況是各個縣市政府對於簡易裝修的案件還是實施逐件審查，不是抽查，然後我們的業者為了求快速通過，通常就是委任建築師或者跑照公司辦理，市場申辦的費用最少就是6萬，最多數十萬，請問這樣子不是擾民嗎？如果這樣子的高費用，大大的影響我們小型住宅業主申辦的意願啦！所以署長，如何落實簡易裝修的立法精神？我們希望簡易裝修的申辦可以比照目前消防安全可透過線上申辦的方式，如果你沒有改變，因為簡易而已大家就沒有去申辦，我們希望簡易的合法化，但是你沒有簡易通過的機制，變成大家就是要花錢，你看多少人要去花這個錢，發生事情誰要負責？"],["吳署長欣修：因為所謂簡易的室裝，大概各縣市政府的定義也不太一樣，這會跟現在的建築物形式會有不同的差距，而且也會跟它營業的項目，或是屬於自住的部分會有差別。我知道有些縣市政府已經開始訂定，因為我們本來就是下授給地方政府各自去訂定他們所謂的簡易室裝的內容跟簡化辦法，這個部分如果要來談的話，我想我們來召集地方政府，然後是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府的規則提供給其他的縣市政府，大家一起來討論，看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟。至於線上申辦這件事，大概也會涉及到地方政府目前網站經營的量能啦，所以這個部分是不是我們也找地方政府來開會，希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的作法，是不是各縣市政府都統一來試辦看看，這樣或許對民眾來講會比較簡單。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為我時間的關係，第一個問你，你說是公會的問題；第二個問你，你就是說地方的問題……"],["吳署長欣修：因為這是授權地方政府去辦理。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛，如果什麼都是別人的話，你就不用當署長啦！","最後要問你，我們要找出源頭嘛！內政部與經濟部，根據產業界的反映，目前經濟部登記的「室內設計業」與「室內裝修業」分類不清，無法辨識是否具合法資格、是否受內政部規範，導致大量消費者誤信無證業者，進而引起更多的糾紛。所以我們要找出源頭，就是登記的時候，名稱與制度設計過於放寬，形成非法的承攬。依據我們的統計，住宅裝修糾紛每年破千件，經濟部長期未與內政部建立查核或者標準一致的機制，是否失職？所以是否有意願推動與內政部共同建立「登記管理與技術證照連動」制度，避免掛羊頭賣狗肉啦！所以我們才會來問你嘛，是找出源頭讓你知道這件事情。"],["吳署長欣修：因為屬於內政部的部分，確實只有室內裝修業，因為這個在經濟部商業司……我說明一下，這是經濟部的……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你看這邊，如果你要裝修要找哪一個？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，這是經濟部……"],["麥委員玉珍：你清楚嗎？三個業者你要找誰？"],["吳署長欣修：我們的部分就是室內裝修，依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容，這個就是屬於室內裝修業……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你的簽署就不一樣嘛！所以我們才要說……"],["吳署長欣修：這三個行業是在經濟部登記的，並不是在內政部，我們的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以剛才我就說找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議？如何監察得到？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們也有相關的辦法據以執行，我們本來就有相關的辦法據以執行。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為時間的關係……"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分確實就只能在這樣的規則之下，至於有一些不屬於室裝的範疇，當然他去從事其他的行業登記，就不屬於我們業管。主要也跟委員說明一下，室內裝修有很明確的定義範圍跟內容，所謂裝修內容符合的話就要申請，是這個意思。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在我就說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭，你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確，什麼都可以勾、可以用？"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們的內容都是很明確的，我們的內容都非常明確。"],["麥委員玉珍：明確，但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個，希望……"],["吳署長欣修：因為可以做的內容非常多，但是有些必須要透過專業的申請審查，要專業的設計申請……"],["麥委員玉珍：那是審查，剛才你說公會，兩個公會是他們的事情，他們要怎麼樣是你們的事情……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為……"],["麥委員玉珍：第二項就說是別人的事情……"],["吳署長欣修：內容非常多……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以才說你們國土署的內容很多，跟經濟部、內政部共同處理，希望今年年底署長這邊可以完成室內設計相關的行業分類，就是報告……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實現在就很明確了，現在就非常明確了，只是它有些項目不屬於……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果很明確才不會發生那麼多問題……"],["吳署長欣修：有些項目不屬於室裝的內容。"],["麥委員玉珍：你要問10個人才知道裝修是找哪一個，所以這個部分沒有很明確，所以我們希望登記要有具體的表格。","我最後一個建議，室內設計不只是裝潢美學，牽涉的是公共安全、建築合法性與產業正義。這是一個擁有龐大從業人口、具高度專業技術性的行業，卻長期處於法制的邊緣，制度不健全、不分層級、不設門檻，導致優質設計師無法獲得應有的肯定，非法施工橫行無阻，因此危害人民的生命安全，我們看到內政部的承諾毫無進度……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們都已經有相關的辦法……"],["麥委員玉珍：我還沒有叫你講話，你先安靜。"],["吳署長欣修：我們現在就有相關的辦法，不是像委員所講的這樣。"],["麥委員玉珍：經濟部放任登記混亂、行業混亂導致今天……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實行業沒有混亂……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望我們國家應尊重專業……"],["吳署長欣修：當然。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我希望我要求的你要做到，你再回應我，我要求的你都說別人……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這些行業其實都有很清楚的定義。"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望相關的作業可以在3個月內提出時程規劃。還有經濟部，因為經濟部今天有來，應清理產業分類與登記範圍，配合內政部建立一致的執業登記與查核的標準。我們不能再讓一個成熟產業卡死在制度裡，希望各部會不要再推責與行政冷處理對待這個國家需要的改革，制度不改，產業就不會成長，社會安全也將繼續付出代價。","希望署長針對我提出的問題來解決，不要什麼都是別人，別人的孩子死不完，但你們自己的事情卻沒有做，我的要求是這樣……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們的部分非常明確，因為今天經濟部沒有在現場，所以我想我們會依照規定去辦理……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你們提出明確的報告，還有具體的進度表，這才是你要承諾大家的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員，我們請內政部跟經濟部會後研議，好不好？","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162197","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98288f93f6e83de5fc1055f40b4dcc086d9f1b0714f80b9af8b532fe287ba23c3e1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:34:14 - 09:44:24","影片長度":"00:10:10","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:34:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:44:24+08:00","duration":610,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.79846875,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.835968750000001,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":61.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.40534375,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.39534375000001,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.13596875000002,"end":176.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.87909375,"end":162.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.48534375,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.06659375,"end":279.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.37284375000002,"end":188.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.81034375000002,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.61471875,"end":234.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.71534375000005,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.05284375,"end":265.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.51471875000004,"end":359.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.68159375000005,"end":318.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.46846875,"end":375.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.70221875000004,"end":378.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.32221875000005,"end":439.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.57096875,"end":379.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.10659375,"end":380.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.45159375000003,"end":443.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.14721875000004,"end":453.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.81659375000004,"end":501.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.75534375,"end":468.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.58971875000003,"end":507.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.37784375,"end":524.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.1640937500001,"end":534.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.0234687500001,"end":561.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.4115937500001,"end":534.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.3272187499999,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.0303437499999,"end":571.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.67159375,"end":605.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.40471875,"end":605.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.1765937499999,"end":608.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.9653437500001,"end":609.72471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.793,"end":7.011,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員大家早有請劉世芳 劉副長劉副長有請"},{"start":12.933,"end":37.926,"text":"政委早部長好那還是首先第一題請教您一下14題就是有關於這個內政部最近推動全台中正路的改名引發爭議那您也有表示轉型正義是人權問題需要嚴肅對待不管是中央政府或地方政府不要把它當成有錢在推動沒有錢就不推動那您也有表示說不管是改路名還是去除雕像"},{"start":38.466,"end":53.672,"text":"或是去除威權主義的象徵如果遇到困難應該中央地方還有在地居民都有共識再來討論那依據內政部統計其實全台現在有300條中正路而且影響的人數會是上萬甚至數十萬"},{"start":54.512,"end":67.18,"text":"的居民以及商家包含身份證戶口名簿土地權狀稅單交通站牌營業登記帳單地址等通通要跟著變那民眾現在很擔心不管地方政府受到壓力以及民眾會擔心改資料換證件"},{"start":69.662,"end":85.324,"text":"就要花非常多的時間跟金錢的成本那依據現在網路民調統計也請部長參考超過七成的民眾反對改民因為大家認為說其實不是民眾不重視轉型正義而是大家認為回歸生活現實比較重要"},{"start":85.845,"end":109.098,"text":"因為這些重鎮路早就變成大家生活習慣的地址了不會想到是威權的象徵民眾也認為說這樣子改名的話對民生其實沒有很多的幫助以前像道路改名成功的案例像台北的軍公路改成和平東路四段這樣的改名其實也全部歷經了17年那也是經過在地民眾七成以上支持才一步一步的完成"},{"start":109.798,"end":137.963,"text":"那我是不是想請教部長說現在中央沒有明確公告哪一些的地名哪一些的標誌是屬於威權象徵跟建議改名的清單那導致地方不知道如何評估甚至會被質疑說是選擇性推動那是不是可以請教針對入名的部分可不可以說明一下或是未來有機會可以公告建議修改的名單還是完全交由地方自治然後地方來負責是不是請部長可以回答一下"},{"start":138.703,"end":158.981,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心如果按照張委員的講法的話那就請大院來修正促轉條例因為根據促轉條例的第五條跟第十一條之二的規定出現於公共建築或場所的紀念免懷威權統治者的象徵應與移除跟改名那各級政府機關構均應配合辦理這個是在2017年的促轉條例在大院通過的"},{"start":162.344,"end":174.498,"text":"那很多委員當時也都很多我們的這個執政者不管是中央跟地方當時也都是立法委員那所以我們是根據這個第五條跟第十一條之二的部分將這個威權統治者"},{"start":177.441,"end":192.127,"text":"現在局限就是蔣中正蔣經國命名的介入名稱這是屬於威權象徵因於改名所以事實上我們是根據這個大院所通過的這個法律來進行的那在進行的過程當中確實沒有錯就是我們有委託這個有一些這個文史團體來幫我們做一下研究它大概有四種不同的程度譬如說它只是一個塑像或是雕像那可能移除就很快但是移除的過程也不是搬了就走"},{"start":207.193,"end":233.428,"text":"就是還是要有完成譬如說它雕像所在地的地方或是學校或者是某一個公共場所之類的那這些移除也慢慢都在完成當中那當然最難的部分是在於說張委員所提到的就是路民的改善的部分那因為內政部是地方制度的主管機關但是地方制度的執行機關並不是只有內政部還包括地方政府"},{"start":234.028,"end":238.07,"text":"所以地方政府要配合這個所謂的威權這個象徵時代的這個部分呢要這個改名的部分呢其實我們為什麼在新聞稿的時候有講清楚說這是一個法定的任務或者義務啦那法定義務的話就要編列預算那編列預算是可多可少因為看你這個狀況而定因為它不是一個"},{"start":257.301,"end":262.967,"text":"這個累積性的它只是一個特定的這特定時段完成就完成譬如說我們知道台中市改名為台灣大道或者是台南市政府它中正路把它加註有湯德章大道是類似的一個道理那我們都知道在推動的過程當中我都一再強調溝通非常重要"},{"start":276.82,"end":283.804,"text":"這個溝通包括中央政府包括地方政府那包括這個地方上的這個民眾這文史團體那所以我才強調說這個轉型正義這個推動的過程當中要顧慮到轉型正義也要顧慮到程序正義因為我們是一個民主法治的國家內政部也是屬於行政院的這個一個部會而已我們不可能超越法律的授權去處理法律授權以外的東西那但是呢大家都知道"},{"start":303.753,"end":312.938,"text":"對於推動這個改名的過程當中很多人有不同的看法有的人覺得說必須要這個就是威權的象徵那有的人覺得說啊無所謂而且呢他從小到大就在中正路吃麵線或者是吃陽春麵或者是吃外省麵長大的那這些呢都可以列入我們可以一起溝通討論的範圍所以我才強調說轉型正義一定要顧及到程序正義然後我們希望這不要造成這個很多的社會對立但是呢"},{"start":332.708,"end":358.562,"text":"不造成社會對立不是表示你講你的我講我的而是說我們能不能溝通如果溝通有共識的話有共識我們就來推動那坦白跟這個委員講就是我們內政部自己民政司在推動有關轉型正義剛好今年的預算在包一大包裡面也是被凍結啦那但是呢我們都知道如果地方政府有需要的話我們會轉到促轉基金來申請相關的基金預算來協助那以上簡單的報告"},{"start":359.522,"end":374.233,"text":"好 謝謝部長的解釋我想我剛剛也給部長一個清楚的說明機會希望說未來地方政府在推動的時候也希望說內政部可以來指導一下看地方政府後續要如何去進行也要感受民眾的感受"},{"start":376.235,"end":382.52,"text":"接下來我們要討論今天有關於建築法的一個修法那主要的問題點就是說這是根據建築法的第77條之二規定公共使用的建築物裝修必須使用申請室內裝修許可那必須要張貼在現場才可以施工"},{"start":401.098,"end":425.46,"text":"那這些制度現在目前來看是非常的完整可是實務上常常看到有些商場為了要爭取一些時間未報準就先行動工或是因為他們的想法就是說企圖可以用還沒有這個申請核准就開始施工那創造一些時間差來說短暫停營業的一些損失那我想要請教就是說因為現在有如果一些裝修現場沒有申請沒有張貼也沒有這個消防防護計劃"},{"start":428.402,"end":453.122,"text":"那我們來請教一下因為我們知道說現在裝修的案子在全台灣非常的多那現有的查核的量能我們想應該是相對有點不足啊那我想請教就是說那現有的機制面對這樣的情況的時候要如何來運行是不是說只能依照民眾檢舉啊那是不是說有一些主動申報的查核機制不能遇到事故才亡羊補牢是不是請署長回答"},{"start":454.211,"end":475.958,"text":"感謝委員 原來在試裝的試裝辦法裡面本來針對這個要張貼施工的資訊在試裝辦法第29條都已經有明訂了所以在法令上來講因為建築法是母法所以我們在下授在建築屋的部分有建築基礎規則跟試裝的辦法所以詳細的執行"},{"start":479.56,"end":498.038,"text":"細節我們都會定在執法裡面所以這是原來在執法就有第二個就是說當然對於這一個申報開工它是屬於在被查制當然在形式上你如果沒有完成這樣子的話那經過稽查確實屬於未申報開工的話那當然可以依照建築法的規定去進行相關的處罰"},{"start":498.959,"end":514.095,"text":"那但是就像委員所講的其實現在施工查驗的部分那地方政府其實有些地方政府還是屬於在行政裡面自己會去辦相關的稽查但是也有些縣市政府已經都有委託相關的工會去做稽查"},{"start":514.696,"end":531.14,"text":"那至於這個稽查的量能跟次數要不要再增加我想我們可以再找地方政府來研議這部分我們原廠都會尊重地方政府就他的行政機制上要如何來加強那我們會站在監督的立場就是說再跟他們討論看看是否請他們再加強這個稽查的次數好 謝謝署長那署長就是說因為現在"},{"start":536.261,"end":555.4,"text":"整個機制來講我們現在有在協助努力不管是地方機場的加強或是請工會來協助那可是我現在比較擔心的是說會不會因為資訊不透明會有一些違法裝修的一些問題那變成說如果以民眾他們有沒有辦法及時查詢相關有沒有在裝修的這些資訊"},{"start":556.801,"end":570.823,"text":"那如果是發生發現的違規行為那是不是有一些可以可以去這個國土署我們辦法設置相關裝修許可的資料的網站讓民眾來查詢而不是大家就是檢舉來的時候沒有一些可以依照的依據"},{"start":571.932,"end":598.357,"text":"感謝委員其實我們陸陸續續現在雖然地方政府自己有的有能力做相關的網站那來揭露但是我也知道有些地方政府礙於經費是他並沒有揭露相關的這個資訊那這個我想我們來檢討我們署內的這一個健管相關許可的網站來找地方政府來討論看是否一種是鼓勵地方政府設另外一種就集中把這些資訊也集中到我們的網站"},{"start":598.737,"end":602.884,"text":"那我們也來做一些管理我想委員這個建議我們來找地方政委一起來商討"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時34分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員早。"],["張委員智倫：部長好。首先第一題要請教您一下時事題，就是有關於內政部最近推動全臺中正路的改名引發爭議，您表示轉型正義是人權問題，需要嚴肅對待，不管是中央政府或地方政府，不要把它當成有錢再推動、沒有錢就不推動。您也表示，不管是改路名，還是去除雕像或是去除威權主義的象徵，如果遇到困難，應該等到中央、地方及在地居民都有共識之後再來討論。","依據內政部統計，其實全臺現在有300條中正路，而且影響的人數是上萬甚至數十萬的居民以及商家，包含身分證、戶口名簿、土地權狀、稅單、交通站牌、營業登記、帳單、地址等通通要跟著變。民眾現在很擔心，不管是地方政府受到壓力，以及民眾會擔心改資料、換證件要花非常多的時間跟金錢成本。","依據現在的網路民調統計，也請部長參考，超過七成的民眾反對改名，因為大家認為，其實不是民眾不重視轉型正義，而是大家認為回歸生活現實比較重要，因為這些中正路早就變成大家生活習慣的地址了，不會想到是威權的象徵。民眾也認為，這樣的改名對民生其實沒有很多的幫助，以前道路改名成功的案例中，像臺北的軍功路改成和平東路四段，這樣的改名其實也歷經了17年，也是經過在地民眾七成以上支持，才一步一步的完成。","想請教部長，現在中央沒有明確公告哪一些地名、哪一些標誌是屬於威權象徵跟建議改名的名單，導致地方不知道如何評估，甚至會被質疑是選擇性推動。針對路名的部分，可不可以說明一下，或是未來有機會可以公告建議修改的名單？還是完全交由地方自治，由地方來負責，是不是請部長回答一下？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝張委員的關心，如果按照張委員的講法，就請大院來修正促轉條例，因為根據促轉條例第五條跟第十一條之二的規定，出現於公共建築或場所的紀念、緬懷威權統治者的象徵，應予移除跟改名，各級政府機關（構）均應配合辦理。這是2017年在大院通過的促轉條例，很多我們的執政者，不管是中央跟地方，當時也都是立法委員，所以我們是根據第五條跟第十一條之二，將威權統治者，現在侷限在就是以蔣中正、蔣經國命名的街路名稱，這是屬於威權象徵，應予改名，所以事實上我們是根據大院所通過的法律來進行的。","在進行的過程當中，確實沒有錯，我們有委託一些文史團體來幫我們做一下研究，這大概有4種不同的程度，譬如說它只是一個塑像或是雕像，若要移除可能就很快，但是移除的過程也不是搬了就走，還是有一些要完成，譬如說雕像所在的地方，或者是學校，或者是某一個公共場所之類的，這些移除也慢慢都在完成當中。當然最難的部分是在於張委員所提到的，就是路名改善的部分，因為內政部是地方制度的主管機關，但是地方制度的執行機關並不是只有內政部，還包括地方政府，所以地方政府配合所謂威權象徵要改名的部分，其實我們在新聞稿中有講清楚，這是一個法定的任務或是義務，法定義務的話，就要編列預算，而編列預算可多可少，看狀況而定，因為它不是一個累積性的，只是一個特定時段，完成就完成了，譬如說我們知道臺中市將其改名為臺灣大道；或者是臺南市政府把中正路加註為湯德章大道，就是類似的道理。","在推動的過程當中，我都一再強調，溝通非常重要，這個溝通包括中央政府，包括地方政府，包括地方上的民眾跟文史團體，所以我才強調說，轉型正義推動的過程當中，要顧慮到轉型正義，也要顧慮到程序正義，因為我們是一個民主法治的國家，內政部也是屬於行政院的一個部會，我們不可能超越法律的授權，去處理法律授權以外的東西。但是大家都知道，在推動改名的過程當中，很多人有不同的看法，有的人覺得必須要做，這個就是威權的象徵；有的人覺得無所謂，而且他從小到大就是在中正路吃麵線，或者是吃陽春麵，或是吃外省麵長大的，這些都可以列入我們一起溝通、討論的範圍，所以我才強調說，轉型正義一定要顧及到程序正義，然後我們希望不要造成很多的社會對立，但是不造成社會對立並不表示就是你講你的、我講我的，而是說我們能不能溝通，如果溝通有共識的話，我們就來推動。","坦白跟委員講，就是我們內政部自己的民政司在推動有關轉型正義的部分，剛好今年的預算，包在一大包裡面，也是被凍結了，但是我們都知道，如果地方政府有需要的話，我們會轉到促轉基金，並申請相關的基金預算來協助，以上簡單的報告。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長的解釋，我剛剛也給部長一個清楚說明的機會，希望未來地方政府在推動的時候，也希望內政部可以來指導一下，看地方政府後續要如何去進行，而且也要感受到民眾的感受。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我跟您講一下……"],["張委員智倫：部長，我沒有要請你回答，我要談到下一題了，而且剛剛也給你很多時間說明，謝謝。","接下來我們要討論的是今天有關於建築法的修法，主要的問題點是，根據建築法的第七十七條之二規定，供公眾使用建築物之裝修應申請室內裝修許可，並應將許可文件張貼於施工現場才可以施工，這些制度目前來看是非常的完整，可是實務上卻常常看到，有些商場為了爭取一些時間，未報准就先行動工，或是他們的想法是，還沒有申請核准就開始施工，企圖創造一些時間差，來縮短暫停營業的一些損失。我想請教的是，如果一些裝修現場沒有申請、沒有張貼，也沒有消防防護計畫，我們知道現在裝修的案子在全臺灣非常的多，現有的查核量能，相對應該是有點不足，就現有的機制，面對這樣情況的時候，要如何來運行呢？是不是只能依照民眾檢舉？是不是有一些主動申報的查核機制，不能遇到事故才亡羊補牢？請署長回答。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員的提案，其實在室裝辦法裡面，本來就針對張貼施工資訊，室裝辦法第二十九條都已經有明定了。在法令上來講，因為建築法是母法，所以我們在下授建築物的部分，有建築技術規則跟室裝辦法，至於詳細的執行細節，我們都會定在子法裡面，因此，這在子法裡原本就有。","第二個，對於申報開工，它是屬於備查制。當然在形式上如果沒有完成這樣子的程序，經過稽查確實屬於未申報開工的話，當然可以依照建築法的規定去進行相關的處罰。但是就像委員所講的，其實現在施工查驗的部分，有些地方政府是他們行政人員自己會去辦相關的稽查，但是有些縣市政府則是已經委託相關的公會去做稽查。至於稽查的量能跟次數要不要再增加，我想我們可以再找地方政府來研議，這部分我們原則上都會尊重地方政府就它的行政機制上要如何來加強，我們會站在監督的立場，就是再跟他們討論，看看是否請他們再加強稽查的次數。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長。因為就整個機制來講，我們現在有在協助、努力，不管是地方稽查的加強，或是請公會來協助，可是我現在比較擔心的是，會不會因為資訊不透明，而有一些違法裝修的問題，民眾他們有沒有辦法即時查詢到底有沒有在裝修等等這些資訊呢？如果發現了違規行為怎麼處理呢？對此，國土署有沒有辦法就相關裝修許可資料來設置的網站，讓民眾來查詢，而不是檢舉提出來的時候，大家沒有一些可以依照的依據。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實我們陸陸續續都在做，雖然有的地方政府自己有能力做相關的網站來揭露，但是我也知道有些地方政府礙於經費，並沒有揭露相關的資訊，我們會來檢討我們署內建管相關許可的網站，並找地方政府來討論，一種是鼓勵地方政府設置；另外一種就是把這些資訊集中到我們的網站，我們也來做一些管理，委員的這個建議，我們會找地方政府一起來商討。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長，謝謝部長。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162196","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162196","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98285ce9c318ed41ddfd55f40b4dcc086d9f1b0714f80b9af8b5a478bf4b7292ce505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:22:37 - 09:34:08","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：\n(一)\t審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:22:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:34:08+08:00","duration":691,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.00471875,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.82659375,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.501593750000001,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.12284375,"end":139.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.47846875,"end":106.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.85784375,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.66846875000002,"end":132.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.35534375,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.80596875,"end":145.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.58221875,"end":150.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.11346875,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.82221875000002,"end":147.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.71221875,"end":150.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.43784375,"end":150.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.45471875,"end":151.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.45034375,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.48409375,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.58534375000002,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.74096875,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.11534375000002,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.28346875000003,"end":193.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.96596875,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.01159375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.11471875,"end":299.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.76471875000004,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.96721875000003,"end":300.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.03034375000004,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.38034375,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.07534375,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.96534375000005,"end":314.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.96346875,"end":362.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.20221875000004,"end":362.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.21909375,"end":363.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.55659375000005,"end":396.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.00971875000005,"end":380.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.78346875,"end":402.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.46596875,"end":434.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.39971875000003,"end":422.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.28784375000004,"end":455.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.11159375000005,"end":477.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.01534375000006,"end":526.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.5478437500001,"end":542.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.7647187499999,"end":554.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.99471875,"end":564.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.00596875,"end":575.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.2490937499999,"end":596.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.1865937499999,"end":599.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.9540937500001,"end":603.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.4978437500001,"end":617.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.2465937500001,"end":622.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.11096875,"end":623.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.06846875,"end":649.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.6384687500001,"end":659.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.77596875,"end":672.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.14221875,"end":665.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.36909375,"end":687.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00"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部長好部長今天要審查這個建築法剛剛這麼多版本啊可見的我們委員對這個台灣的建築管理有非常非常多不同的想法跟期待那我們作為雙北的委員我們當然也關心不過我是這樣覺得我覺得政策啊想法啊其實如果能夠比較有共識一致的時候大家再來決定到修法那我覺得修法的速度才會快啦"},{"start":39.758,"end":42.239,"text":"不然從修法倒推回來講政策我覺得這個方向比較不容易達成共識這是我的想法所以我想我今天不就這個建築法各個版本跟部長細究我想要繼續來討論我們關心的這個老宅的問題部長這樣這個問題可以這方向可以"},{"start":61.866,"end":86.227,"text":"好那我想為什麼討論老宅呢是因為我們這個在看到行政院要推出的這個強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性的特別條例中我看到內政部打算匡列三年五十億的特別預算來推動老宅延壽計畫等一下我給你一點點時間喔你可不可以稍微簡要說明一下這是草案嘛還沒有正式推出你們的方向大概如何啊"},{"start":87.165,"end":106.252,"text":"非常謝謝蘇委員我想委員的非常高遠的意見有關老宅的部分我想是這個樣子我們在推動這個很多住宅的興建的時候我們要考慮住在住宅裡面的人尤其我們有發現到說根據內政部的統計資料在北三都的部分"},{"start":106.892,"end":126.008,"text":"很多老人家住在老宅沒錯那因為老人家的部分的話由長照或是其他的社會福利政策是可以協助但是如果他的房子本身的延壽也可以列為是一種比較屬於硬體方面的社會福利的協助的話我們很樂意幫忙所以院長他就覺得說那我們說不定可以放到特別預算來辦辦看所以我們現在目標大概是以500棟為主500棟對 但是500棟"},{"start":133.814,"end":155.812,"text":"一個要務就是說他這個老宅呢必須要有這個防震係數在45不然我們先確認一下您現在講的都還是草案嘛對不對還沒有正式公布就還沒有上路吧草案但是這是方向計劃抱怨就可以了計劃抱怨那位但目前還沒有嘛對不對因為因為預算對啊所以因為你現在跟我們講的是方向嘛我們還有修改的空間好來繼續好好"},{"start":157.333,"end":181.133,"text":"那所以呢我們以這個方向來看就是說後來也發現到說若干的這些營造或者是建築師工業者他們也願意樂意幫忙是為什麼因為很多老宅其實他是健康的但是他只要做在室內裝潢或者是外面的這個防震做得好的話那老人家住在原來的老舊社區裡面他有老朋友這個生活圈不容易改變因為我們以往會覺得說"},{"start":182.634,"end":191.079,"text":"老人家如果讓他要住好一點要移到新的部分但是他就喪失原來生活圈的部分所以大部分我們在考量的時候我們也有跟衛福部一起討論也有跟很多團體包括老盟這些團體在推動所以我們認為這個方向是好的我想"},{"start":201.464,"end":223.326,"text":"這個利益大家現在都聽清楚了嘛我想利益良善沒有人會反對甚至是應該表示支持我們台灣的狀況就是這個嬰兒潮的這一代大家認真打拼買了房子但是隨著時間過去人也老了房子也老了但你叫他換新房子坦白講有點難但長輩現在住在所謂的不登公寓也就是四到六層樓這樣的公寓來講其實真的是蠻辛苦的"},{"start":225.928,"end":232.472,"text":"那我們過去推出了非常多的政策包括輕盈換居啊這個我們的這個社宅的部分輕盈共居的部分那甚至是我們這個包租代管某程度也是希望你把老房子租出來給年輕人住那你就去住在有電梯的房子這也是一種但顯然這個狀況還不夠多所以現在推出了這個老宅修繕的計畫好那我就想請問啦"},{"start":252.502,"end":273.333,"text":"這雖然利益良善不過因為條件限制上面第一你說的是30年以上第二是四到六層樓所以這兩個限制未來都會是就確定是這個方向嗎因為聽到了這個計劃的人坦白講是全社會蠻多的所以他第一他就來問那我七樓呢"},{"start":274.573,"end":298.954,"text":"那我這個有其他的呢這個條件是怎麼定的為什麼是30年以上為什麼是4到6樓還有另外一個是因為你這邊寫的是無耐震疑慮這個大家就有話講了大家就覺得你是不是資源有限的狀況下還是應該要把耐震的部分先放在最前面"},{"start":300.115,"end":320.285,"text":"這才是一個比較好的方式,不然你的回答是什麼?謝謝蘇委員的關心,我想你講到重點了其實有關耐震補強的部分呢,在我們的國土署它是今年累月在推動的所以是已經本來就有計劃嘛,對不對?是本來就有計劃那我們現在考量,就是老宅延壽要推出來的時候因為它涉及到內政部跟衛福部"},{"start":320.945,"end":350.385,"text":"所以現在就是院長他先匡列這50億讓我們來試辦看看如果是好的話要往比較高樓或是有其他的必須要這個老宅延售的方向我們會在不管是公務預算或是基金預算或是特別預算再來繼續推動因為要修善一個房子不是今天講了明天拿到補助款房子自己就好了因為它有室外的公共空間也有室內的裝潢空間兩邊都要一起完成才是真正達到老宅延售然後照顧老人家的立場"},{"start":350.865,"end":360.047,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明我想藉著今天的這個對答我想大家應該可以更清楚我們耐震補強的計畫過去也有了而且未來還會繼續推因為它到2025年是計畫的最後一期對 還會繼續推動還會繼續嘛因為這是公共安全的問題對嘛 所以耐震補強不但是過去已有的計畫而且未來也會繼續再推現在特別條例推出的是一個50年的計畫那為什麼是50因為就是試試看嘛所以因為試試看"},{"start":378.131,"end":381.714,"text":"因為我們因應超高齡的時代來臨我們也必須要在這方面做一些社會福利跟無障礙的推動"},{"start":402.691,"end":418.043,"text":"我想我是本席是支持啦尤其是這個長輩如果無力維持屋況的狀況政府能夠給予補助或者甚至是引導我相信這個方向是好的所以這個老宅延壽的部分我想本席竟表支持這是第一個部分也是希望"},{"start":418.723,"end":433.58,"text":"好 我們也會努力加速啦讓預算可以通過啦這是我們立法院這邊可以做的那另外我想要問一個最後一分鐘的時間我想跟部長請教一下我過去有質詢過的部分就是在5月8號的時候我有問過都市更新的審議量"},{"start":435.716,"end":454.188,"text":"我這時候一直有問 都市更新其實是各縣市各地方大家都在期待因為一定是都市更新計畫完成了之後才有後面所有方方面面到你家會受到影響的推動 這沒有問題可是我們再再來看都市更新的都市計畫的審議其實"},{"start":456.389,"end":473.46,"text":"坦白講這時間真的是很長啦那我再說一次我們關心的新北的部分我們新北的部分本席特別關心的是從我自己的樹林行政園區開始樹林行政園區呢內政部的都委會最後一次的審議是在2023年12月26號至今已經一年半了"},{"start":478.066,"end":500.981,"text":"那他的狀況是現在新北市也同意他要回歸到因為我們有好幾個案所以不如我們就是把第一個送進來的永和行政園區把永和的這一案審出一個結果來變成變成一個通則之後後面新北市的幾個案包括永和、土城、樹林、新莊三重的行政園區就follow這個通則來做沒有錯嘛對不對我們已經討論很多次了可是"},{"start":506.204,"end":518.428,"text":"永和行政委員區到底要審到什麼時候呢我覺得我們在這裡利用公開的這個詢答的部分我們把事實再說一次也等一下請國土署這邊可以再回答到底問題在哪裡它第一次送進來永和的行政委員區第一次送進來是2021年12月28日"},{"start":526.67,"end":533.874,"text":"一年之後2023年的1月3號再一次審議兩年之後時隔整整兩年2024年的12月17號是第三次的專業小組會議也是目前本案的最後一次審查那2024的12月17到現在已經又過半年了那他的狀況是在哪裡呢我也給其他新北市的委員們聽聽看嘛這個狀況現在是在等新北市政府補件啊"},{"start":556.261,"end":568.447,"text":"現在我們到底要怎麼樣到底你可不可以催促他啊因為大家居民都在等你看從2021到現在一共只開過三次會啊 每次到底是他補件補得不夠快交件交得不夠好還是我們審查審得不夠好 不夠快這個可不可以署長你講一下我們大家一起來推動嘛"},{"start":575.33,"end":596.389,"text":"是跟委員報告其實因為永和行政園區這個案子因為它本身基地周圍的道路比較小但是市府所提出來的又是非常高容積的方案那所以在交通的疑慮還有這個未來執行的可行性上大概小組都有很明確的請他們要"},{"start":597.27,"end":617.788,"text":"要做正確的評估但是我想歷次的我們都是很快就趕快做審查提供給他意見但就像委員所講的我們其實都在等新北市府的補件那只要只是他補件我們就會趕快再開小組趕快做確認那因為其他幾個行政園區也有類似的條件當然問題最嚴重應該是永和啦"},{"start":618.257,"end":636.303,"text":"那要用通則到底是中央決定的還是地方要求的應該是說就幾個行政園區未來處理的機制也就是它是單純的一個行政機關還是未來還可以做其他高隆基轉做商辦轉做其他住宅的形式的話那這個的確"},{"start":637.944,"end":651.416,"text":"因為五個行政園區都有類似的問題所以我們希望新北市府要確認一個方向那經過小組審查完大會如果通過那其他的行政園區就比照這樣的一個模式來進行可是你用最難的來設立通則然後最難的要拖很久啊我們簡單的其實是如果不會太難的啊結果我們一直等那個啊不知道等到什麼時候這樣不是等於是我們後面的卡住了嗎"},{"start":659.824,"end":685.649,"text":"是 我想如果委員這個意見的話我想我們來跟新北市府討論一下他如果覺得其他的案子相對的困難度沒那麼高的話或許我們可以考慮再是不是再調整好 署長 因為這個備詢的資訊時間有限我想我們另外再做本案來做討論而且我想其他的新北委員其實也都非常關心因為這其實遍佈整個新北所以我希望你資料準備好我們到辦公室討論一下這樣好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝署長好"},{"start":689.384,"end":689.546,"text":"謝謝蘇曉慧委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":208,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時22分）謝謝主席。我們請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：蘇委員早！"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好！部長，今天要審查建築法，剛剛看到這麼多版本，可見得委員對臺灣的建築管理有非常非常多不同的想法及期待，我們作為雙北的委員，當然也關心，不過我覺得政策、想法如果能夠比較一致、有共識，大家再來決定修法，修法的速度才會快，不然，從修法倒推回來講政策，我覺得這個方向比較不容易達成共識，這是我的想法。所以我今天不就建築法的各個版本跟部長細究，我想要繼續來討論我們關心的老宅問題，部長，這個問題可以啦！這個方向可以喔！","為什麼討論老宅呢？是因為我們看到行政院要推出的因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例中，內政部打算匡列三年50億的特別預算來推動老宅延壽計畫。部長，我給你一點點時間，你可不可以稍微簡要說明一下，現在這個是草案，還沒有正式推出，你們的方向大概如何？"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝蘇委員。委員有關老宅部分的非常高遠意見，我想我們在推動很多住宅興建的時候，要考慮住在住宅裡面的人，尤其我們有發現到，根據內政部的統計資料，在北三都的部分，很多老人家住在老宅……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：老人家的部分，雖然由長照或是其他的社會福利政策是可以協助，但是如果他房子本身的延壽也可以列為一種屬於硬體方面的社會福利協助的話，我們很樂意幫忙，所以院長就覺得我們說不定可以放到特別預算來辦辦看，現在我們的目標大概是以500棟為主……"],["蘇委員巧慧：500棟。"],["劉部長世芳：對，但是500棟的第一個要務就是這個老宅必須要防震係數在45……"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我們先確認一下，您現在講的都還是草案，對不對？還沒有上路吧！但是這是方向？"],["劉部長世芳：那是計畫，計畫報院就可以了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但目前還沒有，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：因為特別預算還沒討論通過。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，所以你現在跟我們講的是方向，還有修改的空間？"],["劉部長世芳：對，是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，請繼續。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們以這個方向來看，後來也發現若干的營造或者建築施工業者也樂意幫忙，為什麼？因為很多老宅其實是健康的，只要做室內裝潢或外部的防震做得好的話，老人家住在原來的老舊社區裡面，有老朋友，生活圈不容易改變。我們以往會覺得如果讓老人家住好一點，要移到新的部分，但是他們就喪失原來的生活圈。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以大部分我們在考量的時候也有跟衛福部一起討論，也有跟很多團體、包括老盟這些團體在推動，他們認為這個方向是好的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：OK。部長，這個立意大家現在都聽清楚了，我想立意良善，沒有人會反對，甚至應該表示支持。我們臺灣的狀況就是嬰兒潮這一代大家認真打拚、買了房子，但是隨著時間過去，人老了，房子也老了，你叫他換新房子，坦白講有點難，但長輩現在住在所謂的步登公寓，也就是4到6層樓的公寓，其實真的是滿辛苦的。我們過去推出了非常多政策，包括青銀換居、社宅的部分……"],["劉部長世芳：青銀共居。"],["蘇委員巧慧：青銀共居的部分，甚至是包租代管某個程度也是希望把老房子租出來給年輕人住，房東就去住在有電梯的房子，這也是一種，但顯然這個狀況還不夠多，所以現在推出了老宅修繕的計畫，我就想請問，雖然立意良善，不過條件限制上面：第一，你說是30年以上；第二是4到6層樓，所以這兩個限制未來都會確定是這個方向嗎？因為聽到這個計畫的人，坦白講是全社會，滿多人的，所以他們就來問：7樓呢？其他的呢？這個條件是怎麼訂的？為什麼是30年以上？為什麼是4到6樓？還有另外一個是，因為你這邊寫的是「且無耐震疑慮」，這個大家就有話講了，大家就覺得在資源有限的狀況下，是不是應該要把耐震的部分先放在前面，這才是一個比較好的方式？部長，你的回答是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝蘇委員的關心，我想你講到重點了。其實有關耐震補強的部分是我們國土署經年累月在推動的，不管是幾層樓……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是本來已經就有的計畫，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們現在考量老宅延壽要推出來的時候，因為涉及到內政部及衛福部，所以現在院長先匡列50億讓我們來試辦看看，如果是好的話，要往比較高樓或是有其他老宅延壽的方向，我們會在不管是公務預算、基金預算或是特別預算再來繼續推動。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。"],["劉部長世芳：因為要修繕一個房子不是今天講了，明天拿到補助款，房子自己就好了，還要考量有室外的公共空間，也有室內的裝潢空間，兩邊都要一起完成，才是真正達到老宅延壽、照顧老人家的立場。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝部長的說明。我想藉著今天的對答，大家應該可以更清楚，耐震補強的計畫過去就有了，而且未來還會繼續推，因為到2025年是計畫的最後一期……"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：還會繼續吧？"],["劉部長世芳：還會繼續推動。"],["蘇委員巧慧：還會繼續嘛，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：因為這是公共安全的問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對嘛，所以耐震補強不但是過去已有的計畫，而且未來也會繼續再推，現在特別條例推出的是一個50年的計畫，為什麼是50？因為就是試試看嘛，而且因為試試看，就要匡列一個範圍……"],["劉部長世芳：50億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對不起，推出50億的計畫來試試看。在試試看的狀況下，當然有一個條件、範圍先匡住，但如果執行得好的話，其實是可以再擴增的，部長，你今天回答的意思應該是很清楚嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，因為我們因應超高齡的時代來臨，也必須在這方面做一些社會福利及無障礙的推動。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，本席是支持的，尤其長輩如果無力維持屋況的狀況下，政府能夠給予補助、甚至是引導，我相信這個方向是好的，所以老宅延壽的部分，本席敬表支持，這是第一個部分，我們也會努力加速，讓預算可以通過，這是我們立法院這邊可以做的。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：另外，最後1分鐘的時間，我想要跟部長請教一下我過去有質詢過的部分，就是在5月8日我有問過都市更新的審議量，我一直有問，都市更新其實是各縣市、各地方大家都在期待的，因為一定是都市更新計畫完成了之後才有後面所有方方面面到你家會受到影響的推動，這沒有問題，可是我們來看都市更新計畫的審議，坦白講時間真的很長。我再說一次我們關心的新北部分，本席特別關心的是從我自己的樹林行政園區開始，內政部都委會最後一次針對樹林行政園區的審議是在2023年12月26日，至今已經一年半了，它的狀況是現在新北市也同意要回歸到……因為有好幾個案，所以不如把第一個送進來的永和行政園區這一案審出一個結果，變成一個通則之後，後面的新北市幾個案，包括永和、土城、樹林、新莊、三重的行政園區就follow這個通則來做，沒有錯嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們已經討論很多次了，可是永和行政園區到底要審到什麼時候呢？我們在這裡利用公開的詢答把事實再說一次，等一下也請國土署可以再回答，看看到底問題在哪裡。永和行政園區第一次送進來的時候是2021年12月28日；1年之後，2023年1月3日再一次審議；2年之後，時隔整整2年，2024年12月17日是第三次的專業小組會議，也是目前本案最後一次審查。2024年12月17日到現在已經又過半年了，它的狀況是在哪裡呢？也給其他新北市委員們聽聽看，這個狀況現在是在等新北市政府補件。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在我們到底要怎麼樣？你可不可以催促它啊？因為居民大家都在等，你看，從2021年到現在，一共只開過3次會，到底是它補件補得不夠快、交件交得不夠好，還是我們審查審得不夠好、不夠快？署長，你可不可以講一下？我們大家一起來推動嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實永和行政園區這個案子因為本身基地周圍的道路比較小，但是市府提出來的又是非常高容積的方案，所以在交通的疑慮及未來執行的可行性上，該小組都有很明確地請他們要做正確的評估，我們都是很快就趕快做審查，提供他們意見，但就像委員所講的，我們其實都在等新北市府的補件，只要它補件，我們就會再開小組會議趕快做確認。因為其他幾個行政園區也有類似的案子，當然，問題最嚴重的應該是永和。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那要用通則，到底是中央決定的，還是地方要求的？"],["吳署長欣修：應該是說就幾個行政園區未來處理的機制，也就是它是單純的行政機關，還是未來還可以做其他高容積轉作商辦、轉作其他住宅的形式，因為5個行政園區都有類似的問題，所以我們希望新北市府要確認一個方向，經過小組審查完、大會如果通過，其他的行政園區就比照這樣的模式來進行。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是你用最難的來設立通則，然後最難的要拖很久，結果我們簡單的、其實不會太難的，一直在等那個，不曉得要等到什麼時候，這樣不是等於我們後面的卡住了嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是，就委員這個意見，我們來跟新北市府討論一下，它如果覺得其他的案子相對地困難度沒那麼高的話，或許我們可以考慮是不是再調整一下做法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為質詢時間有限，我想我們另外再就本案做討論，而且我想其他新北的委員也都非常關心，因為這遍布整個新北，所以我希望你把資料準備好，我們到辦公室討論一下，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝部長，謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},{"id":"162195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162195","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828eb0cca4aa6aed155b8fa27110b4cf3b31b0714f80b9af8b502603dcc7e4fc98c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:11:35 - 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早上聽了我們立法院幾位委員的這樣的一個詢答以後我是感慨很深啦 感慨很深立法院不是一個水準很高的地方但是立法院是一個多元民意的一個地方我最擔心的就是說我們今天提出來這個修法就是說叫做民意的伸張這句話聽起來真的是很可怕"},{"start":57.569,"end":68.14,"text":"為什麼說很可怕就是說民意常常像流水一樣不同的壓力團體不同的民團有它的一個主張那你站在司法部門"},{"start":71.67,"end":93.292,"text":"那你怎麼樣來採取什麼樣的一個名業我倒反而會覺得說正義要伸張啊你說虐童可不可惡可惡啊尤其是致死當然可惡啊要不要重判當然要重判啊但我最擔心的是什麼大家把那個概念給搞混掉了王一川坐在那個地方"},{"start":94.485,"end":112.24,"text":"我每天去捏他 我也是在捏他 他產生不了什麼效果啊他搞不好覺得我很討厭而已啊我一直捏一直捏一直捏一直捏捏捏到最後他搞不好輕傷一股藥而已啊搞不好我那個手段再狠一點他變重傷他有可能虐到最後他死掉了"},{"start":113.513,"end":126.234,"text":"也就是一個行為裡面常常會隨著風險的提高產生不同的結果但是主觀到底要犯意是做些什麼"},{"start":128.103,"end":147.54,"text":"我要語重心長的講啦講出在今天這樣的一個修法講出不同見解的人壓力是特別的大特別的大像剛吳宗憲委員他你也是法律人出身啊我對他的看法是我他也完全顛覆我的看法我就不認同但是也請你聽聽看你都一直認為說這個構成要件啊這個法官啊不要被他給綁住了我要跟召委報告"},{"start":155.509,"end":176.44,"text":"我們一當代法學思想在強調的就是罪行法定主義你不要以為罪行法定主義是很古老的東西你罪行法定完為什麼叫罪行法定就是我要構成要件立法者用構成要件要綁住這些法官不能讓他愛怎麼判隨著他的情緒怎麼判就怎麼判那不行啊哪怕是檢察官依法打擊犯罪起訴了以後"},{"start":183.871,"end":186.037,"text":"你起訴的罪名法官都可以變更起訴法條啊都可以變更啊那所以說 沒有這個過程要見 我才怕咧"},{"start":192.625,"end":204.289,"text":"我們今天在講說 凌虐致死可不可惡 非常可惡 民主進步黨也認為非常可惡我認為法務部一定認為很可惡啊 司法院也認為很可惡啊 凌虐把人家凌虐致死怎麼會不可惡呢那我剛看各位 你們回答之後 部長就很想去回答可是因為這個地方主戰場是立法院嘛 你們不能暢所欲言"},{"start":214.952,"end":240.632,"text":"那覆滅了又法官出身那你當然就不想多言啦那其實你們的判決書我都看過嘛你們寫的判決書是質地有深啊水準是非常高的啊可是到了立法院有時候礙於時間的因素你也不知道要怎麼說我就來進入主題啦你像譬如說以今天所提出來的你說凌虐虐童你說凌虐致死你說變成死刑跟無期徒刑我為什麼覺得"},{"start":243.829,"end":256.389,"text":"會顛覆現在的法學思潮就你去創設了一個我們一般講說殺人罪以現在來看的話在我們刑法體系個人侵害到個人法益是最高的犯罪嘛"},{"start":257.674,"end":275.259,"text":"你如果殺人罪你又沾泥,死刑無期徒刑沾泥,那你現在凌虐致死,那你創一個死刑跟無期徒刑,那你創設一個比殺人罪還更重的一個法律出來,這好奇怪,這個沒辦法說服我,我不曉得怎麼樣來說服我自己。"},{"start":279.079,"end":305.211,"text":"不能說我自己不是說我認為劣童之死是不可惡非常可惡但是體系上會錯亂所以我倒覺得刑法的正義它當然要去嚴懲但是也要符合比例原則那你用剝奪用非以奪命為目的的虐待的行為的法定型你把它設定這個極刑"},{"start":307.032,"end":330.411,"text":"負面會不會有 你會不會覺得體系混亂的問題謝謝委員我贊同那個委員的那個意見因為凌略致死 他之所以沒有構成殺人就是說他一剛開始的時候他不是一個殺人的一個翻譯是一個比較低的 就是說像那個委員講的 去捏他那所以就是說"},{"start":332.272,"end":358.948,"text":"所以說這兩個事實上他是有罪責相當的問題就是表現在他的法定刑上他是有一個層次不一樣的所以我就知道你的意思了嘛但問題你們在這邊講不清楚在立法院我告訴你你沒辦法講清楚反而你真正想我只要在立法院碰到重大爭議的法案我幾乎常常跟人家不一樣我頭腦長得奇怪還是怎麼樣我都覺得立法的東西啊"},{"start":359.915,"end":376.509,"text":"真的是不能民粹回應民意很重要但是呢但是兩邊在拉扯的時候你如果一個國家一個司法你沒有去把它守住這個整個法律的一個體系的話你會崩潰掉你真的會崩潰掉我再來舉例就好了啦"},{"start":380.097,"end":392.746,"text":"你說馬前總統執政的時候簽了兩公約嘛我也不談說兩公約要不要遵守的問題啦你那兩公約我們現在已經是內國化我們已經把它當成國內法囉那你光修這裡的話那好啦"},{"start":397.628,"end":414.838,"text":"那你兩公約裡面你講的裡面講的是在講說你締約國不得在批准公約時候其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪行轉變為死刑好那你兩條你受罰電你這個地方修那除非你那個地方也修除非我們也去修不是這樣子嗎所以我是覺得非常遺憾的地方就是說"},{"start":425.56,"end":430.023,"text":"大家看到這些讓人痛恨的事情 其實大家心裡頭想法都一樣的啦虐童致死 我相信不管是中國國民黨 台灣民眾黨 或者民主進步黨大家都認為那個非常可惡 只是說這個法令怎麼樣來定你要定到說 虐童致死的 他就是一個刑法的太上條款"},{"start":451.337,"end":465.56,"text":"他定的比殺人罪還要重可是你又沒有辦法去說明說他的故意他不是基於殺人的故意他只是因為虐童到最後死掉了所以那個叫做帝王刑法的帝王條款你要去這樣創設道理講清楚了以後我也沒有意見喔但是大家要先講清楚喔虐童可惡虐待直系血清尊精屬可不可惡"},{"start":478.874,"end":484.218,"text":"虐童致死啦 死刑無期徒刑把父母親 把男略帶死了覺得沒有關係 比較輕一點這個也沒有辦法說服我這個也沒有辦法說服我死 我在這邊再強調尤其是中國國民黨跟台灣民眾的朋友還有我們所謂的民團你們的意見 你們的憤怒 立法院你都聽見了但是我們談的是在談一個法律的體系"},{"start":506.363,"end":526.272,"text":"你說死掉啦 照我們一般在講就是說每一次犯罪大家都講說到底衝擊到什麼樣的一個法義大一的學生最喜歡提這個所有的個人的法義集合到最後才去提到什麼什麼國家法義 那不管那我的意思就是說 你像譬如說人死掉了誰讓他死掉的如果你是碰到一個14歲以下的讓他死掉的連刑法都沒有了"},{"start":535.006,"end":552.176,"text":"死掉了可不可憐 好可憐欸你對這些家屬怎麼去做一個彌補 是喔這個時候如果說 家裡頭又沒有錢了 那怎麼辦被害人真的是很痛苦啊那如果這是致死的行為人 剛好是14歲以下的養母熊 國無賽如果碰到的是一個80歲以上的人去殺人的 你刑法設計又必檢"},{"start":562.113,"end":574.004,"text":"所以產生死亡的結果它有很多原因那這個行為人這個加害者有很多不同的態樣啊產生出來不是產生叫做必死 不會啊不然我們刑法為什麼從總則邊開始去做一個設計要講罪責"},{"start":582.133,"end":592.617,"text":"然後呢再到最後用這個過程要件把整個法律人給綁住不能讓你心情想到哪裡你覺得你很痛苦啊這個很可惡就給你亂判判處即行那也不行"},{"start":595.899,"end":613.327,"text":"那也不行所以我倒覺得說今天啊這樣的一個修法裡面啊我絕對支持啊這個強化兒童的一個保護杜絕孽童的行為我相信各個政黨大家都一樣但是讓刑法變成社會情緒的一個出口把他整個刑法的體系把它給崩潰掉善思啦我覺得這個要善思啦尤其是大家法律人都講說這個要有比例原則啊"},{"start":624.349,"end":639.593,"text":"我特別去查了不少的一個案例啊不少的一個案例啊我看最高法院有時候在講凌虐致死的部分這致死的部分他到最後也會去提升到用殺人罪去判你像譬如說我去當人家的保姆"},{"start":645.489,"end":662.362,"text":"我當保姆去把人家凌虐 把他扣毒他要把他扣毒 過夜或過午而已 也不安全也許會妨礙到他身心的一個健康健全的發展這個觸犯到刑罰那如果凌虐到最後他受傷了風險慢慢在提高有人去報警了 他怕警察追啊 好啊 沒得救 把他帶走小孩子死掉了"},{"start":675.509,"end":678.75,"text":"我看最高法院也有判處殺人罪死掉 虐童行為太陽很多啊可能是基於 我就是自己哭動而已啊有的人就是哭到就有輕傷有變成死人重傷然後到最後有可能產生死亡的結果"},{"start":693.356,"end":714.107,"text":"他因為他是一個保姆所以他有基於保證人的地位你看到他要死可能會死你去讓他死掉你不去救他你那個風險慢慢去提升這個基於保證人的地位法官會認為說那你就產生你這個跟殺人的未必故意是一樣的判處死刑這種判決我也看到了我認為這個判決很正確啊所以未必什麼都是一定要"},{"start":721.886,"end":739.899,"text":"死刑 要提升到死刑也可以我認為也可以可是去創設一個比殺人罪還更高的帝王條款真的要善失但重點還是在哪裡呢我還是覺得還是在法官給他獨立審判的空間我個人都不認為死刑是最最最嚴重的處罰"},{"start":749.062,"end":761.573,"text":"我認為最可惡的人要是我來判的話我不判死刑我判他無期徒刑讓他生不如死我們乾脆立法院來設定一個很可惡的除了死刑以外要加一個無期徒刑每天叫出來遊街示眾讓民意來宣洩這樣好嗎但可以思考喔"},{"start":776.653,"end":781.759,"text":"所以我會覺得 各位啊 今天碰到這個議題 你們都不方便講啦但是我要再強調 虐童行為要杜絕 虐童行為要重判這一題不是政治題目"},{"start":793.311,"end":801.318,"text":"這一題不是政治題目各個政黨不用去互相吐口水這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題啦就抱歉啦實在是我的才疏學淺啦不敢看夠啦剛才我其實我自認為啊我這個法學跟"},{"start":810.306,"end":834.548,"text":"那個複密 跟廳長 跟部長 跟你們比較我寫的應該都很生疏啦只是 這些基本的幾百年來法學的一個思潮還有法律人必須要嚴守的這些基本的原理啊還是要慎重啦 不然你說他可不可惡 我覺得很可惡啊要把他判到死刑 我贊成的"},{"start":835.802,"end":859.517,"text":"如果法官認為他已經提升到一個殺人的未必故意當然可以把他判給你也同樣要判處死刑也可以啊你這個基於殺人之故意直接判你殺人罪就好啊我來判我敢判他死刑啊但重點是重點是說要把他提升一個獨立的一個帝王條款都不去問他本身當初他的主觀的翻譯是什麼就是死刑跟無期徒刑兩個可以選擇這個可能"},{"start":861.584,"end":878.525,"text":"有待考慮而且跟我們整個國內法的一個會不會產生衝突我再強調一次不是要不要遵守兩公約的問題兩公約已經是國內法了那我們在修法的時候就算這個地方要過其實應該要同時是兼顧到別的法律衝突的問題以上 謝謝好 謝謝總委員那下一位我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時11分）謝謝召委。你要稱讚就要用麥克風，你什麼都私底下稱讚我。","請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長。"],["主席：副秘、部長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：刑事廳廳長也上來一下。我今天早上聽了立法院幾位委員的詢答以後，我感慨很深！立法院不是一個水準很高的地方，但是立法院是一個多元民意的地方。我最擔心的是，今天提出修法就叫做民意的伸張，這句話聽起來真的是很可怕，為什麼說很可怕？就是說民意常常像流水一樣，不同的壓力團體、不同的民團有他們的主張，站在司法部門，要採取什麼樣的民意？我反而會覺得正義要伸張，你說虐童可不可惡？可惡！尤其是致死，當然可惡！要不要重判？當然要重判！但我最擔心的是什麼？大家把概念給搞混掉了。王義川坐在個地方，我每天去捏他，我也是在凌虐他，但產生不了什麼效果，他搞不好覺得我很討厭而已，我一直捏、一直捏、一直捏、一直捏，捏到最後他搞不好輕傷擦藥而已，搞不好我手段再狠一點，他變重傷，有可能虐到最後他死掉了，也就是一個行為裡面常常會隨著風險的提高產生不同的結果，但是他的主觀犯意是什麼？","我要語重心長地講，今天的修法要講出不同見解的人壓力是特別大，像剛剛吳宗憲委員，你也是法律人出身，我對他的看法是他也完全顛覆我的看法，我就不認同，但是也請你聽聽看，你都一直認為法官不要被構成要件給綁住了，我要跟召委報告，當代法學思想在強調的就是罪刑法定主義，你不要以為罪刑法定主義是很古老的東西，為什麼叫罪刑法定？就是立法者用構成要件要綁住這些法官，不能讓他愛怎麼判、隨著他的情緒怎麼樣就怎麼判，那不行啊！哪怕是檢察官依法打擊犯罪，起訴了以後，起訴的罪名法官都可以變更起訴法條，都可以變更。所以說沒有構成要件我才怕！","今天在講凌虐致死可不可惡？非常可惡，民主進步黨也認為非常可惡！我認為法務部一定認為很可惡，司法院也認為很可惡，把人家凌虐致死怎麼會不可惡呢？我剛剛看各位回答之後，部長就很想去回答，可是因為這個地方主戰場是立法院，你們不能暢所欲言。副秘又是法官出身，你當然就不想多言。其實你們的判決書我都看過，你們寫的判決書是擲地有聲，水準是非常高的，可是到了立法院，有時候礙於時間的因素，你們也不知道要怎麼說。","我進入主題，像譬如以今天所提出來的虐童，你說凌虐致死變成死刑跟無期徒刑，我為什麼覺得會顛覆現在的法學思潮？就你去創設了一個，我們一般講說殺人罪以現在來看的話，在刑法體系侵害到個人法益的是最高的犯罪，如果犯殺人罪，可處死刑、無期徒刑或十年；現在凌虐致死，你給他創一個死刑跟無期徒刑，創設比殺人罪還更重的法律出來，這好奇怪，沒辦法說服我。我不曉得怎麼樣說服我自己，不能說服我自己不是說我認為虐童致死不可惡，非常可惡！但是體系上會錯亂，所以我倒覺得刑法的正義，當然要去嚴懲，但是也要符合比例原則，你用非以奪命為目的的虐待行為的法定刑，你把它設定這個極刑，副秘會不會覺得有體系混亂的問題？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。我贊同委員的意見，因為凌虐致死之所以沒有構成殺人，就是說他一剛開始的時候，不是一個殺人的犯意，而是一個比較低的，就是像委員講的去捏他，所以說這兩個事實上是有個罪責相當的問題，就是表現在它的法定刑上是有一個層次，不一樣的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我就知道你的意思了，但問題你們在這邊講不清楚，在立法院，我告訴你，你沒辦法講清楚，我只要在立法院碰到重大爭議的法案，我幾乎常常跟人家不一樣，不知道是我的頭腦長得奇怪還是怎麼樣？我都覺得立法的東西真的是不能民粹，回應民意很重要，但是兩邊在拉扯的時候，如果一個國家、司法，你沒有去守住整個法律體系的話，你會崩潰掉，真的會崩潰掉。","我再來舉例，馬前總統執政的時候簽訂了兩公約，我也不談兩公約要不要遵守的問題，那兩公約現在已經是內國法化，我們已經把它當成國內法，光修這裡的話，兩公約裡面講說：締約國不得在批准公約時或其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪刑轉變為死刑。結果兩條牴觸，你這個地方修，除非你那個地方也修，除非我們也去修。不是這樣子嗎？","所以我覺得非常遺憾的地方是，大家看到這一些讓人痛恨的事情，其實大家心裡頭想法都是一樣的，虐童致死，我相信不管是中國國民黨、台灣民眾黨或者民主進步黨，大家都認為非常可惡，只是說法令怎麼樣來訂？你要訂到說虐童致死的就是一個刑法的太上條款，訂得比殺人罪還要重，可是你又沒有辦法去說明，說他的故意不是基於殺人的故意，他只是因為虐童到最後死掉了，所以那個叫做刑法的帝王條款，你要去這樣創設，道理講清楚了以後，我也沒有意見，但是大家要先講清楚。","虐童可惡，虐待直系血親尊親屬可不可惡？虐童致死，死刑、無期徒刑；把父母親虐待死，覺得沒有關係，判刑比較輕一點，這個也沒有辦法說服我。我在這邊再強調，尤其是中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨的朋友，還有所謂的民團，你們的意見、你們的憤怒，立法院都聽見了，但我們是在談法律的體系，一般在講的就是，每一次犯罪，大家都講到底衝擊到什麼樣的法益，大一學生最喜歡提這個，所有個人的法益集合到最後才是什麼國家法益，那個不管，我的意思是，譬如人死掉了，誰讓他死掉的？如果你是碰到一個14歲以下的讓他死掉了，連刑罰都沒有耶！死掉的可不可憐？好可憐耶！你對這些家屬怎麼彌補？是喔！這個時候如果家裡頭又沒有錢了，那怎麼辦？被害人真的是很痛苦！如果這個致死的行為人剛好是14歲以下的，驗不出傷、「糊牛屎」；而如果碰到的是一個80歲以上去殺人的，刑罰設計又必減。","產生死亡的結果有很多原因，行為人、加害者也有很多不同的態樣，所產生的不是叫做必死，不會！不然我們刑法為什麼從總則編開始設計，要講罪責，到最後再用構成要件把法律人給綁住，不能讓你心情上想到哪裡，你覺得你很痛苦、這個很可惡就亂判、判處極刑，那也不行。所以我倒覺得今天這樣的修法，我絕對支持強化兒童的保護，杜絕虐童行為，我相信各個政黨大家都一樣。但是讓刑法變成社會情緒的一個出口，整個刑法體系崩潰掉，三思啦！我覺得這個要三思，尤其法律人都講要有比例原則。","我特別去查了不少案例，我看最高法院有時候在講凌虐致死部分，致死的部分到最後也會提升到用殺人罪去判。譬如我去當人家的保母，凌虐人家，今天虐待他就抹一抹藥而已，也不會怎樣，也許會妨害到他身心的健全發展，這個觸犯到刑法；那如果凌虐到最後他受傷了，風險慢慢再提高，有人去報警，他怕被警察追，說是不救他就這樣跑掉，小孩子死掉了，我看最高法院也有判處殺人罪。虐童行為態樣很多，可能是基於我就是虐待你而已，而有的人就是可惡，到最後致輕傷，有的變成使人重傷，到最後有可能產生死亡的結果。因為他是一個保母，所以他有基於保證人的地位，你看到他要死、可能會死，你卻讓他死掉，你不去救他，那個風險慢慢提升。基於保證人的地位，法官會認為那就產生你這跟殺人的未必故意是一樣的，判處死刑。這種判決我也看到了，我認為這個判決很正確。","所以未必什麼都是一定要死刑，要提升到死刑也可以，我認為也可以，可是去創設一個比殺人罪還更高的帝王條款，真的要三思，但重點還是在哪裡？我覺得還是在於法官、給他獨立審判的空間，我個人都不認為死刑是最最嚴重的處罰，我認為最可惡的人，要是我來判的話，我不判死刑，我就判他無期徒刑，讓他生不如死。乾脆立法院來設定一個針對很可惡的，除了死刑以外，要加一個無期徒刑，每天叫出來遊街示眾讓民意宣洩，這樣好嗎？但可以思考，所以我會覺得，各位今天碰到這個議題，你們都不方便講，但是我要再強調，虐童行為要杜絕，虐童行為要重判，這一題不是政治題目、這一題不是政治題目，各個政黨不用互相吐口水，這是非常嚴肅的一個議題。","很抱歉，實在是我才疏學淺，也不敢看稿，遇到你們其實我自認為法學素養跟副秘、廳長及部長比較，我已經差不多都很生疏了，只是這些基本的、幾百年來的法學思潮，還有法律人必須嚴守的這一些基本原理，還是要慎重，不然你說他可不可惡？我覺得很可惡，要把他判到死刑我贊成，如果法官認為它已經提升到殺人的未必故意，當然可以，虐童的要把他判處死刑也可以啊！你基於殺人之故意，直接判你殺人罪就好啦！我來判，我敢判他死刑啊！但重點是要把它提升到是一個獨立的帝王條款，都不去問他本身當初的主觀犯意是什麼，就是死刑跟無期徒刑兩個可以選擇，這個可能有待考慮，而且跟我們整個國內法會不會產生衝突？我再強調一次，不是要不要遵守兩公約的問題，兩公約已經是國內法了，那我們在修法的時候，就算這個地方要過，其實應該要同時兼顧到別的法律衝突的問題。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828a8e54903ea2a41ac69516374867620ce1b0714f80b9af8b5c59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:10:43 - 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謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長"},{"start":12.731,"end":39.077,"text":"部長好 部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然"},{"start":42.598,"end":60.349,"text":"一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢"},{"start":61.697,"end":87.667,"text":"跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把"},{"start":89.028,"end":101.894,"text":"台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果"},{"start":105.12,"end":126.365,"text":"要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道若連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期"},{"start":127.125,"end":148.748,"text":"他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛喔那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安"},{"start":149.99,"end":166.702,"text":"這邊所以是中央負責那南科管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央"},{"start":167.583,"end":176.346,"text":"那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠"},{"start":195.267,"end":202.821,"text":"跟委員報告如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟勞工地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的條件"},{"start":203.806,"end":226.372,"text":"那如果只有調解地方政府依照相關的法令或進行調解的一些協助那幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個男科管理局男科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色"},{"start":227.539,"end":252.761,"text":"跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這一個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理然後"},{"start":255.53,"end":260.034,"text":"這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責"},{"start":262.737,"end":286.225,"text":"根據我的報告 基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對 是你們不是 因為現在這個家科是剛在整地 剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作就像竹科 中科 南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局"},{"start":286.545,"end":297.594,"text":"是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發核准什麼都是他那你們只是負責公安的部分那既然他從頭到尾負責這個部分為什麼不要讓他的角色一開始都可以加進來雙重的監督不是對於這個整個的公安的"},{"start":316.209,"end":325.984,"text":"的這個監督會有更強化效果嗎因為他在地你們南區你們是設在高雄吧你們還更遠所以這件事情從這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討這種比較特殊性的在科學園區的"},{"start":331.394,"end":349.42,"text":"看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個"},{"start":361.364,"end":383.303,"text":"熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎"},{"start":387.506,"end":405.323,"text":"我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電他在日本的他的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場他的現場同時多部的吊車在進行他的吊掛作業他的現場"},{"start":412.29,"end":430.474,"text":"你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的"},{"start":431.054,"end":449.613,"text":"就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的"},{"start":450.954,"end":473.321,"text":"可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場"},{"start":475.1,"end":501.583,"text":"可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分"},{"start":502.724,"end":529.266,"text":"好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個吊掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎"},{"start":530.727,"end":546.893,"text":"我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安"},{"start":548.053,"end":566.563,"text":"這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來參考"},{"start":568.784,"end":595.716,"text":"這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或防安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間是那所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安防安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個"},{"start":596.616,"end":610.242,"text":"比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則喔你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說"},{"start":619.415,"end":634.956,"text":"因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的它这样子的一个"},{"start":637.038,"end":653.413,"text":"紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個"},{"start":654.514,"end":677.6,"text":"非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護啊只要有人在一個人也是人啊兩個人也是人啊就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好"},{"start":678.737,"end":704.209,"text":"魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色我就是不會靠近"},{"start":705.029,"end":727.899,"text":"所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動可以嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我要請教你關於工安的議題，因為最近台積電在嘉義的封測廠，它的施工發生了兩起重大的意外，造成一死一重傷，這樣的事件發生在我們護國神山台積電身上，大家都覺得有點不可思議，因為他是臺灣的驕傲，但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然連續發生兩起這麼重大的工安意外？當時我也有告知勞動部一定要去詳查事故發生的原因。第一個，我要問的是，請問現在對於事故發生的原因，你們進行勞檢，已經調查清楚了嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這兩個事件，在案發當時我們南區中心的檢查員就到現場了，基本上，委員現在提到的部分在法規裡面都有很清楚的規範，應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理。這兩個案件發生以後，我們在今天，就在這個時候，我們在園區工務所裡面召開會議，把台積電、管理局以及所有主承包商的負責人、主管都邀集起來召開檢討會議，現在會議正在進行。"],["王委員育敏：正在進行會議，所以檢討結果還沒出來。第一個，我要求這個檢討的結果要給本席跟委員會一份資料，因為畢竟這是指標性的個案，我們想要知道，如果連模範生的施工廠都出問題，真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡？","另外一個，我要請教，你剛剛有提到南科管理局，它在當中到底扮演什麼樣的角色？因為今天又傳出另外一起，它不只有工安意外，還有勞資糾紛，那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事，這是嘉義縣政府的事情。所以現在看起來，在科學園區，像以嘉義為例，嘉義科學園區發生事情，它有勞資糾紛、有工安意外，這些是不是隸屬不同的單位？工安是屬於職安，所以是中央負責；南科管理局說這有勞資糾紛，這不關我的事，是屬於嘉義縣政府，那請問今天這個會議，嘉義縣政府有列席嗎？它有出席嗎？它的角色是什麼？","從這個事件，我要探討的是三方的角色：中央、南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府，這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色？如果說橫向沒有一個聯繫機制的話，像這件事出問題，業務隸屬不同的單位，那各自知道各自負責的事情嗎？譬如說，都是同一個台積電嘉義廠的案子，它有勞資糾紛，中央勞動部知道嗎？你們會介入、會去關心嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，如果勞工因為相關勞工權益受損，他可以跟地方勞工行政機關提起勞資爭議的調解，如果只有調解，地方政府依照相關的法令會進行調解的一些協助，幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭；如果調解不成立，他可以提起訴訟，勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工，透過訴訟的途徑來求取他權益的補償。"],["王委員育敏：但是嘉義科學園區還有一個南科管理局，所以南科管理局在這件事情上沒有角色？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，調解的話，他可以就近到南科管理局進行勞資爭議的處理，也可以到嘉義縣政府，兩個地方都可以。"],["王委員育敏：但是南科管理局說他沒有角色，他今天在媒體上面公開講的，他沒有任何的角色可以介入，他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務未授權南科管理局辦理，這是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，基本上勞檢授權的部分……"],["王委員育敏：南科管理局沒有角色，對不對？是你們嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：不是。跟委員報告，因為現在嘉科剛在整地，剛開始在開發，我們認為這個階段的興建工程是要由中央把關，所以這個部分還沒有授權，但是如果完工以後開始運作，就像竹科、中科及南科，基本上勞動檢查權會是管理局。"],["王委員育敏：是管理局負責的。但是施工階段，他們並沒有任何角色，而現在出現了重大的工安意外，我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討，既然科學園區是隸屬於南科管理局，基本上，他們從頭到尾都應該要有角色。因為整個案子的開發都是他們核准的，你們就只是負責工安的部分，既然他們從頭到尾負責，這個部分為什麼不要讓他們的角色一開始也都可以加進來呢？雙重的監督不是對於整個工安的監督會更有強化的效果嗎？因為他們在現地，你們南區中心是設置在高雄，你們還更遠，所以針對這件事情我認為勞動部應該回過頭去檢討，這種比較特殊性的、在科學園區的工地，看起來這些老闆很多，要怎麼樣做會比較順暢，是不是請部長可以回去檢討一下？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意來跟包括地方的勞政單位及科學園區的管理局，幾方之間的界面要做一些整合的檢討，我們願意來做這些事情。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求要檢討，檢討的結果再給本席。第二個，一樣是台積電，有關於台積電熊本廠的工安，你們2022年有去考察，你們考察之後有看到人家熊本廠是怎麼做的嗎？他們用紅色來標示是禁止，綠色是可以走的通道，黃色是放置器材，他們可視化的程度做得非常的好，一樣是台積電，這個是在日本的情況，人家第一現場的工安是這樣子做的，回到臺灣，你們有做嗎？你們有落實嗎？你們勞動部之前積極在推動的「安全可視化」做了多少？看起來就是沒有嘛！","所以可以看到一樣是台積電，他們在日本工地是這樣的設置模式，請問台積電的嘉義廠，現場同時多部的吊車在進行吊掛作業，你們去他們工地現場進行勞檢時，他們有這樣做嗎？有用紅、綠、黃標示的這麼清楚嗎？有這麼清晰的SOP在進行嗎？我想一定是沒有。在沒有的情況底下，當然日本廠沒有出現重大工安，臺灣廠同時在施工的就發生兩起重大工安事故，這個就是我之前一再質詢也一再提醒你們的，你們也認為可視化是一個很重要的管理方式，你們考察報告裡面還提到「安全可視化」低成本、高效益，就是這個的成效其實是非常好的，可以達到安全的效果，可視化低成本又高效益。","台積電熊本廠做得這麼好，這麼好的一個典範，但是你們2022年考察完之後回到臺灣到現在，為什麼在臺灣你們沒有辦法好好的來落實？就是讓我們的工地現場可以達到這樣的標準。你真的覺得……部長，聽說你也剛去韓國考察完，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：濟州島。"],["王委員育敏：濟州島。他們韓國的工安跟臺灣比起來，你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好？至少我個人去日本時，我只是路過看到他們路邊施工有在做的，你們知道嗎？他們對於工地周遭的交通維持跟安全維持的人員配置，就有好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮，他們為預防吊掛作業的墜落危害，拉出來的警戒空間範圍也很大，這就是人家日本在重視工安的部分，他們是從第一現場的SOP都做到位，讓整個的安全可以被維護住。","反觀臺灣，我們常常用趕工為理由，你知道嗎？我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有工程延宕，就是有挖出考古的文物導致停工之後，為了加快速度，但是趕工之餘就忘記了工安，我覺得這件事情不應該發生在台積電身上，因為他們是模範生。"],["洪部長申翰：很謝謝委員，日本確實他們在很多營建的工程裡都是有高於法規的作法在進行，我想我們也會參考日本的作法，來強化對於臺灣廠商的要求，的確在臺灣的營造業，我們認為在工安或環安衛的作法上是有很大可以改進的空間，所以我們現在也跟職安署很密切的在檢討我們目前在職安及環安衛相關的政策跟機制，我希望接下來可以提出一個比較大的機制上面的改革。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們要提出，因為現在就你們職業安全衛生設施規則的第九十二條第一項、第九十條及第九十一條的相關規定，譬如針對吊掛物，你們只有一個原則，就是起重機具應於運轉時採取防止吊掛物通過人員上方及人員進入吊掛物下方之設備或設施，就是一個原則性的宣示。但是你看看日本發展出來這樣一個紅、綠、黃的可視性顏色，就是各有各自的意義，在現場的SOP是非常清楚的，但是在我們臺灣就只是用一個宣示，要有相關的設備或設施，但是要什麼樣的設備跟設施也沒有規範。","所以，坦白講，你們到現場勞檢的時候，根本沒有一個非常明確的SOP可以執行勞檢，譬如在人員部分，你也沒有要求現場要什麼樣的人員來維護，只要有人在，1個人也是人、2個人也是人，就是你們並沒有更細膩的規範。我真的覺得這個可視化的作法並不會耗費非常多的成本，但是真的兩個圖一比較，你就知道日本為什麼工安可以做得好，魔鬼藏在細節裡啊！"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["王委員育敏：他們可以做的這麼的細膩、這麼的清楚，不管今天有沒有聘外籍移工，當工人進到這個現場，我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域，綠色才是通道，黃色就是堆滿器材的地方，這個就是非常的直觀，你們也不用做非常多的教育，現場馬上就知道趨吉避凶，紅色就是不會去靠近。所以這一套我認為勞動部……部長既然說你們要好好研討，日本這個好的作法，從2022年已經考察到現在了，但是在臺灣卻都沒有實施，我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通，這個是保護他們也是保護工人，也是讓臺灣的工安更落實，這個是不花成本的，大家應該要全力的來推動，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：好，謝謝王育敏委員，謝謝部長。","接續請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162193","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162193","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98281f854f6ac3ca0bacb8fa27110b4cf3b31b0714f80b9af8b58a4d4e9809745efa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:58:48 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10:11:29","影片長度":"00:12:41","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:58:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T10:11:29+08:00","duration":761,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.025343750000001,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.661593750000002,"end":16.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.72909375,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.90596875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.62284375,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.829093750000002,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":53.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.385343750000004,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.16034375,"end":63.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.869093750000005,"end":64.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.83096875000001,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.82034375,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.28784375000001,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.16846875,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.39596875000001,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.34471875000001,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.79159375,"end":104.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.41534375,"end":115.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.96221875,"end":119.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.40034375,"end":122.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.20596875000001,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.88096875000001,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.07909375000001,"end":124.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.82159375,"end":127.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.28534375000001,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.30284375000002,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.12409375000001,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.69284375,"end":211.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.93096875,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.13284375,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.66409375,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.50846875000002,"end":274.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.19471875,"end":292.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.28909375,"end":306.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.61596875000004,"end":314.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.96909375,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.15471875000003,"end":318.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.06971875,"end":320.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.39846875,"end":322.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.56284375,"end":323.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.74409375000005,"end":334.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.08409375,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.88471875000005,"end":342.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.67346875000004,"end":346.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.55909375000005,"end":348.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.98471875,"end":352.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.51159375000003,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.15659375,"end":360.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.40909375,"end":363.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.80534375,"end":364.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.63221875000005,"end":365.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.65721875,"end":368.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.40784375000004,"end":369.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.33596875,"end":372.462218750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淋虐致死最高刑度會到死刑這部分是我們立法的一個方向 我們有提出來做一個討論那這樣子會定案嗎這邊我想我們盡速來推動"},{"start":105.475,"end":121.837,"text":"那另外我請教一下因為我們的現在像我們為什麼非常非常想趕快加速來做修法因為這個凱凱案他的最新的判決已經出來了大家也看到全部沒有死刑嘛"},{"start":122.598,"end":149.74,"text":"因為他最高度是無期對 最高度也是無期徒刑而且隨著這個審判的過程把兩個保母怎麼樣凌虐這麼小的孩子的這個過程也呈現在社會大眾的眼前大家覺得這麼殘忍這麼故意但是呢在我們的法律下仍然沒有辦法去判處死刑所以這個案子"},{"start":150.521,"end":163.954,"text":"激起了重怒所以我們也希望在司法法治委員會我們加快修法的角度我剛才也特別說了因為也等啊因為在這個這個網路平台上公民提議也提議了非常久那我們"},{"start":165.876,"end":191.918,"text":"左等右等法務部沒有提案出來所以呢由立法院我們立法委員衛銘喉舌所以呢來回應社會大眾的期待所以我現在想請教部長我們這個會期預計是在七月底結束請問一下在我們會期結束之前法務部有可能行政院有可能把這個案子送到立法院來嗎"},{"start":192.979,"end":208.659,"text":"這部分我們會加速,然後我們也跟行政院來做一個報告,然後我們想要來加速來推動,我想可以盡快的來回應民眾的社會的一個期待,那我想可以落實保護我們這個兒少的這些權利。好,那我也跟部長說。"},{"start":212.199,"end":234.559,"text":"因為真的沒有辦法再等了啦 真的沒有辦法再等了我們過去很多的女兒案件 很多的殘忍的女兒案件 一而再再而三的發生如果我們大人的世界沒有辦法保護我們的孩子 這是我們的失職這也是我們 真的變成我們很殘忍啦"},{"start":235.66,"end":260.852,"text":"是不是 所以在這邊告訴部長希望你們能夠非常非常快速因為基本上我們修法的進度我們今天如果能夠順利的送出就是送出我們的委員會的話因為我知道民進黨仍然是不同意嘛本來的話如果說大家都同意其實很快的我們這個就修法讓我們的孩子就已經"},{"start":261.832,"end":284.742,"text":"有這個至少呢在法律上能夠得到保護但是如果呢民進黨團仍然是不同意的話那又要使得這個法案要繼續的所謂的冷凍一個月嘛我真的覺得說如果今天我們因為的所謂的黨派之爭如果今天行政院已經都覺得這是一個修法的方向"},{"start":285.242,"end":305.94,"text":"那到時候我們在主條審查的時候你們就可以提出你們的修正動議了嘛對不對你們就可以提出你們的修正動議讓我們的法律加速進行沒有道理說今天還要我們一直等待你們啊是不是啊左等右等你不來怎麼辦所以在這邊呢也要跟大家報告是"},{"start":306.681,"end":335.716,"text":"部長你這邊最好就是你可能應該要有準備在我們逐條審查的時候那你們就提出你們的修正動議出來才能夠加速修法嘛部長同不同意這邊我們來努力好不好你們來努力一下因為我們真的不要一直等啦等來等去沒有意思好不好那也是我們的失職好另外喔那我也請那個我們的副秘書長"},{"start":341.906,"end":364.864,"text":"在法律裡面把凌虐誘而致死列入死刑或者是無期徒刑但是很多的國人的疑問是法律裡面有死刑又怎樣好 我們最近剛才這麼多的委員都提到列進死刑又怎麼樣因為第一個"},{"start":366.698,"end":386.034,"text":"大法官的解釋出來 第一個 法律有死刑 他不會判死即便有一個 就是比如一審的時候 判死接下來呢 到了高等法院 又駁回 又把他推翻"},{"start":388.12,"end":404.933,"text":"然後就算我們到目前為止啦我們這限派八號出來之後沒有一個判死的嘛到目前為止沒有一個判死而且很多是而且這裡面有幾個像這個2022年6月那個新竹的輪胎行縱火案然後燒死八名自己的親人啊那大家都覺得罪無可換啊一審判處死刑"},{"start":416.062,"end":444.775,"text":"結果大法官 宪判八號出來之後立刻 又改判無期徒刑這就是第一個原來判死刑 後來又改判無期徒刑的例子好 那你就算判了死刑之後然後再加上我們整個的從偵查到槍決有八道關卡 八道的金牌就是免死金牌給你"},{"start":445.782,"end":454.73,"text":"到真的要執行死刑 要有很多的關關卡卡所以我們在這邊要請問一下 我們就請教司法院"},{"start":458.2,"end":487.192,"text":"對於法官來說我相信有很多法官要判死刑啊輾轉反側嘛輾轉反側如果以像我剛才講的新竹輪胎案一審判定罪無可赦判決死刑我相信這一審的法官你以為他是想隨便判死刑啊以現在的這種社會氣氛這幾年社會氣氛要判死刑不容易啊是不是但是他判了死刑之後因為我們的"},{"start":489.309,"end":513.087,"text":"大法官的解釋之後又不能夠去判處死刑又變成無期徒刑然後同樣的我們剛才也有特別提到馬來西亞的女大生也是一樣啊所以我們當然希望在修法裡面回應廣大民眾的期待但是如果這個實質廢死實質廢死沒有辦法解決的話"},{"start":518.641,"end":525.398,"text":"修法不足以自刑修法不足以保護我們的國人修法不足以保護我們的幼童啊有沒有解決的辦法"},{"start":530.356,"end":550.391,"text":"跟那個科委員報告齁在那個憲判八之後呢事實上那個法院就是在那個憲判八議職底下還是有宣告死刑的像那個高雄的那個殺鄰居夫妻這個熊芬的114上重訴1號他在那個今年的3月10號就是有宣告那個死刑"},{"start":550.891,"end":566.386,"text":"那另外呢 就是在那個熊芬的114親生重更二第一號的這個案件他在一省還有那個二省是在今年的1月15號也就是在現判八之後還是有宣告死刑的"},{"start":566.866,"end":595.436,"text":"那至於說就是剛才講就是這個案件就是馬來西亞女學生這個案件呢最高法院它撤銷它事實上會撤銷它一定是因為就是畢竟是一個死刑的判決它必須是完全沒有判決那個瑕疵所以是針對就是判決上的有一些瑕疵所以前面都有判決瑕疵前面都有判決瑕疵所以嘛我覺得對於我認為對於很多法官來講他們也很痛苦啊"},{"start":597.214,"end":619.086,"text":"一審 二審 到最高法院 又突然哪一個法官覺得你有瑕疵 或者他就是不願意判死報告委員 就是這個不只是在宣判八之後 向來就是各審級 尤其是最高法院 他已經是要定驗的一個審級了所以說 面對就是宣判死刑 他當然是會比較嚴謹"},{"start":620.487,"end":643.714,"text":"所以這個以前就是說在那個上訴之後呢就是這個撤銷這個在過去也是我必須在這邊說啊第一個大法官不具民意基礎的大法官在在80%的民意的對立念做出了這樣的一個憲判吧使得我們的很多的公平正義司法的公平正義無法伸張"},{"start":648.038,"end":657.769,"text":"這真的太扯 然後我們希望能夠透過公投結果周選會又沒收公投 沒收人民來做決定實在非常離譜啊"},{"start":659.209,"end":680.92,"text":"我們現在民意是大家不能講話嗎就如同我們現在在財委會也是一樣啊行政院要把這個地方補助款把它整個刪掉縣市政府都派員甚至台南市也都有派人來啊就你們民進黨團在那邊不讓人家講話不讓人家上去講話啊到這種程度啊為什麼現在民意要刪招民意要講話這麼困難呢"},{"start":691.075,"end":710.527,"text":"所以在這邊我當然知道中選會的判決不干你們的事情可是我必須要請我們在所有在司法每一個環節的人去想一想我們這些被害人被害人的家屬不要讓他們對於司法已經完全的喪失信心了"},{"start":711.502,"end":723.548,"text":"所以為什麼這些凱凱案的這些父母們除了他當然游說我相信他游說我們立法院所有的委員希望我們能夠修正刑法"},{"start":724.807,"end":743.605,"text":"但是除此之外 也能夠把這個一致決的實質廢死案也能夠得到解決啊好 這個也拜託我們所有在司法上每一個環節的人想著司法就是一個天平啊就是要保護國人的生命財產安全"},{"start":744.707,"end":754.843,"text":"不要因為少數人的意志或者某個政黨的神主牌然後犧牲掉我們人民最基本的權益好 以上好 謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":466,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（9時58分）主席，我請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長以及衛福部政次。"],["主席：麻煩副秘、部長、衛福部次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：早。部長，我先請教，剛才幾位委員都特別關心到有關於刑法的修正，我剛才在提案說明的時候也特別講到，去年陸陸續續開始有我們的委員提出修法，國民黨團的委員一共有15個修法提案，但是民進黨團的提案數是零，在廣大的民意壓力下，尤其剴剴案激發眾怒，終於法務部願意做回應。剛才我也聽到了，第一個，部長說要加快修法的腳步，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：第二個，我剛剛有沒有聽錯？也就是把凌虐幼兒致死罪行的刑度，有可能提高到死刑或無期徒刑，我有沒有聽錯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這的確是有規劃立法的一個方向。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，就是在刑法裡面，針對7歲以下的幼兒凌虐致死，最高刑度會到死刑。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是立法的一個方向，我們有提出來做討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，這樣子會定案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們儘速來推動。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我請教一下，為什麼我們現在非常想趕快加速來做修法？因為剴剴案的最新判決已經出來了，大家也看到全部沒有死刑，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為它最高度是無期徒刑。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，最高度也是無期徒刑，而且隨著審判的過程，兩個保母怎麼樣凌虐這麼小的孩子，把這個過程也呈現在社會大眾的眼前，大家覺得這麼殘忍、這麼故意，但是在我們的法律下，仍然沒有辦法去判處死刑，所以這個案子激起了眾怒，我們也希望在司法及法制委員會加快修法的腳步，我剛剛也特別說了，因為在網路平臺上公民提議也提議了非常久，我們左等右等，法務部沒有提案出來，所以我們立法委員為民喉舌，來回應社會大眾的期待，我現在想請教部長，這個會期預計是在7月底結束，請問在會期結束之前，行政院有可能把這個案子送到立法院來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會加速，也跟行政院來做一個報告加速來推動，我想可以儘快地回應民眾對社會的期待，也可以落實保護兒少的這些權利，無法容忍兒少被凌虐、被戕害。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我也跟部長說，因為真的沒有辦法再等了啦！過去很多殘忍地虐兒案件一而再、再而三的發生，如果大人的世界沒有辦法保護我們的孩子，這是我們的失職，也變成我們很殘忍，是不是？所以在這邊告訴部長，希望你們能夠非常快速提出，因為基本上依照我們修法的進度，今天如果能夠順利送出司法及法制委員會的話，因為我知道民進黨仍然是不同意嘛，如果大家都同意，其實這個案子很快的就能修法，至少讓我們的孩子在法律上能夠得到保護，但是如果民進黨團仍然是不同意的話，又要使得這個法案繼續所謂的冷凍一個月，我真的覺得，如果今天因為所謂的黨派之爭，如果今天行政院已經都覺得這是一個修法的方向，到時候我們在逐條審查的時候，你們就可以提出修正動議，讓我們的法律修正案加速進行，沒有道理今天還要我們一直等待你們，左等右等，你不來怎麼辦？所以在這邊也要跟大家報告，部長，你這邊最好應該要有準備，在我們逐條審查的時候，你們就提修正動議出來，才能夠加速修法，部長同不同意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這邊我們來努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們來努力一下，因為我們真的不要一直等啦！等來等去沒有意思，好不好？那也是我們的失職。","另外，我也請副秘書長，在法律裡面把凌虐幼兒致死列入死刑或無期徒刑，但是很多國人的疑問是，法律裡面有死刑又怎樣？剛剛這麼多委員都提到列進死刑又怎麼樣？因為大法官的解釋出來，第一個，法律有死刑，他不會判死，比如一審的時候判死，接下來，到了高等法院又駁回把它推翻。到目前為止，在憲判字第8號出來之後，沒有一個判死，而且有幾個像2022年6月新竹的輪胎行縱火案，燒死8名自己的親人，大家都覺得罪無可逭，一審判處死刑，結果大法官憲判字第8號出來之後，立刻又改判無期徒刑，這就是第一個原本判死刑，後來又改判無期徒刑的例子。就算判了死刑之後，再加上整個從偵查到槍決有8道關卡，8道免死金牌給你，到真正要執行死刑之前，還要有很多的關關卡卡。所以我們在這邊要請教司法院，對於法官來說，我相信有很多法官要判死刑，輾轉反側，像我剛剛講的新竹輪胎案，一審判定罪無可赦、判決死刑，我相信這一審的法官，你以為他是隨便判死刑啊！以這幾年的社會氣氛，要判死刑不容易！但是他判了死刑之後，因為我們的大法官解釋之後，又不能夠去判處死刑，又變成無期徒刑。同樣的，我們剛剛也有特別提到馬來西亞的女大生案也是一樣啊！所以我們當然希望在修法裡面回應廣大民眾的期待，但是如果這個實質廢死沒有辦法解決的話，修法不足以自行、修法不足以保護我們的國人、修法不足以保護我們的幼童，有沒有解決的辦法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，在憲判字第8號之後，事實上，法院就是在憲判字第8號意旨底下還是有宣告死刑的案子，像高雄殺鄰居夫妻的雄分114年度上重訴字第1號在今年3月10號就有宣告死刑；另外，雄分114侵上重更二字第1號的案件在一審，還有二審在今年1月15號也是在憲判字第8號之後，還是有宣告死刑的。至於剛才講的馬來西亞女學生這個案件，遭最高法院撤銷，事實上會撤銷一定是因為……畢竟一個死刑的判決，它必須是完全沒有判決的瑕疵，所以是針對判決上有一些瑕疵……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以前面都有判決瑕疵？所以我認為對於很多法官來講，他們也很痛苦，一審、二審到最高法院，就突然哪一個法官覺得有瑕疵，或者他就是不願意判死。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這個不只是在憲判字第8號之後，向來就是各審級，尤其是最高法院，它已經是要定讞的審級了，所以面對宣判死刑，它當然會比較嚴謹，所以以前在上訴之後撤銷判決，這個在過去也是一樣……"],["王委員鴻薇：我必須在這邊說，第一個，不具民意基礎的大法官，站在80%民意的對立面，做出這樣一個憲判字第8號，使得我們很多司法的公平正義無法伸張，這真的太扯，然後我們希望能夠透過公投，結果中選會又沒收公投、沒收人民來做決定的權力，實在非常離譜啊！現在是要民意不能講話嗎？就如同我們現在在財委會也是一樣，行政院要把地方補助款整個刪掉，縣市政府都派員，甚至臺南市也都有派人來！結果你們民進黨團不讓人家上去講話！鴨霸到這種程度？為什麼現在民意要伸張、民意要講話這麼困難？所以在這邊，我當然知道中選會的判決不干你們的事情，可是我必須要請所有在司法每一個環節的人去想一想這些被害人、被害人的家屬，不要讓他們對於司法已經完全的喪失信心，所以為什麼這一些關心剴剴案的父母們，我相信他們遊說立法院所有的委員，希望我們能夠修正刑法，但是除此之外，也讓一致決的實質廢死案能夠得到解決，這個也拜託所有在司法上每一個環節的人，想著司法就是一個天平，就是要保護國人的生命、財產安全，不要因為少數人的意志，或者某個政黨的神主牌，而犧牲掉人民最基本的權益，以上。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162192","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828df0233f15acde05469516374867620ce1b0714f80b9af8b5ccdf77eee62e812e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:56:28 - 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謝謝委員 還有我想請洪村安部長好 請洪部長教練好"},{"start":19.3,"end":47.258,"text":"部長我們現在觀光面臨一個很大的問題我們預期希望有1000萬的觀光客但是只來了700萬再來還有很嚴重的缺工那1111人力銀行有個調查目前旅宿產業有30%的業者反映說他們有聘僱移工的需求調查也指出說為什麼他們需要聘用移工是因為第一可以補足人力的缺口再來可以解決排班的困境"},{"start":47.898,"end":63.726,"text":"然後有立即上工的即戰力但本席感到不解的是就算您有跟觀光署開會或是沒有開會為什麼是由觀光署來宣布說旅宿業將有條件來開放移工這件事情"},{"start":65.264,"end":91.213,"text":"跟文說明我們當然確實有跟觀光署來進行一些意見的交換但是我想很清楚相關的政策當然還是有勞動部來主政是那您是什麼時候會來宣布相關的資訊因為旅宿業者關心的是現在快要暑假了嘛家長們要帶小朋友在國內玩或是國外旅客也會過來可他們現在人力嚴重不足如果您已經有觀光署開會他們想知道說"},{"start":92.173,"end":114.409,"text":"您預計是從哪些國家或者說這個期程是如何大概人數是多少您可以給我們一些基本的資訊嗎根本說明因為這涉及到其實跨國勞動力的政策的變更那針對跨國勞動力政策其實當然我們都會有幾個最重要的原則第一個是要避免這個本國勞工的就業機會受到影響那甚至我們在接下來的這個機制的設計裡面"},{"start":117.291,"end":144.356,"text":"我們還希望能夠促成其實能夠對於本勞的加薪其實是有幫助的那再來其實就是很就是剛剛委員其實講到當然我們也希望能夠兼顧產業能夠有充足的勞動力可以來運用甚至有助於企業的流財那所以這幾個部分是我們在思考這些相關政策的原則那的確現在我們還在做進一步的政策的評估之中部長你剛剛講的都很好但是"},{"start":145.356,"end":173.907,"text":"觀光署已經宣布有條件開放所以你這邊是不是也是有條件開放我要再說一次這個政策是由勞動部來主政勞動部來宣布這勞動部來主政跨國勞動力的政策是勞動部在主政所以之後其實您還會再正式的發佈對我們現在在做進一步的研議跟包括我們這些相關的研議之後我們會來跟再來跟社會各界來報告那當然最後我們的政策的走向好那"},{"start":174.987,"end":197.763,"text":"講到這個的話因為剛我有發現劉建國委員已經很在意你們有許許多多的專案執行率都非常的差那這個當然你也會知道勞動部去年八月底開放畢業的僑外生可以任職旅宿業現在已經六月了幾乎已經過一年你也知道現在有幾個人申請吧應該知道蠻少的很少"},{"start":198.854,"end":217.171,"text":"就只有一個人啊對剛剛他講一趴兩趴兩成其實這些數據大家已經覺得難以想像了結果呢你開放喬外申來任職旅宿業一年來就只有一個人申請這個是不是也需要大幅的做改革啊"},{"start":217.95,"end":239.989,"text":"跟文說明確實這個喬艾森從事理事會的部分他其實會有一個條件是要先經過觀光署或者是相關的觀光的單位他要經過80個小時的課程可是我們這個過程裡面我們一直在督促觀光署應該要盡快的來召開相關的課程所以一直到近期比較相關的課程才開出來"},{"start":240.529,"end":259.927,"text":"所以你的意思是說觀光署課程的密度跟頻繁度比較少以至於有意願的人想申請我們一直在提醒觀光署要趕快把課程給開出來所以您那邊已經有多少人跟您反映說因為觀光署的課程不夠頻繁所以他們沒辦法來做"},{"start":260.307,"end":268.858,"text":"就是我們一直在督促他因為確實這個喬艾森要申請中階的這件事情是會要經過80個小時的這樣子的訓練的"},{"start":273.171,"end":296.798,"text":"但你還是需要做改變啊除了增加頻率以外你有沒有別的想法否則我們就是一個人啊如果都一直都一個人怎麼辦我想我們會很積極的來改善這個相關的勞動力的問題所以現在大家在討論包括這些跨國勞動力但是我還是講前提是怎麼樣不要影響國內的就業或者本國勞工的就業還有我們的這些相關的勞動條件"},{"start":298.066,"end":311.883,"text":"好 我來跟你說為什麼這是許多人發現的啦除了你們勞動部有說要用到畢業的橋外生交通部今年2025年1月1號提出了這個觀光旅館業以及旅館業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點"},{"start":316.148,"end":332.323,"text":"業者只要透過這個實習要點用外籍學生來台實習就可以規避掉勞動部的工作許可申請勞基法還有繁瑣的行政流程那你知道他自從開放這個要點1月1號至今有多少人申請嗎"},{"start":336.897,"end":358.332,"text":"一千人所以現在觀光署那邊從這個外籍的實習生一千人喔然後再加上教育部原有的觀光類僑生建教合作專班已經69名所以你現在要解決這個人力的缺口是1069比上1顯然你的政策是不及格的啦"},{"start":364.465,"end":380.293,"text":"那當然很多業者他是反應說開放外籍實習生來台填補旅宿業的人力缺口他們覺得是一股活水可是非常久之計但可以補人力的不足但是人力問題其實沒有解決為什麼"},{"start":381.334,"end":395.47,"text":"因為交通部的這個方案大概是兩年那如果是一般的建交合作教育部的方案大概四年四年左右或是再長一點點但這並沒有辦法解決他們長期的人力缺口啊那另外呢"},{"start":397.272,"end":422.108,"text":"這個假實習但是真工作你夢想是為了建教合作但其實是讓學生做廉價的打工這是監察院以前糾舉過教育部的問題所以站在勞工的立場你是勞動部的大家長你有沒有辦法去明確的跟這些部門溝通工作模式到底實習跟工作的差別到底在哪裡"},{"start":423.854,"end":445.16,"text":"跟委員說明確實現在這些實習生在這個實習場所裡面他們的狀況那當然需要從個案的事實去來做認定不過我想我們在這些申訴跟檢舉的管道也是暢通的那如果外界或學生有疑慮的話我們都可以來協助檢視就是他的他是否這個勞動的狀態其實我想勞動部都願意來檢視"},{"start":448.188,"end":466.674,"text":"那你有沒有考慮找教育部、交通部來進行合作前往這些有申請實習的單位來進行勞檢的調查那個我跟倫說明確實現在關於實習的部分現在這個在主政的其實是教育部那"},{"start":468.534,"end":486.642,"text":"那他的勞動場域但是我們也很樂意我們一直跟不管是教育部也好或者是僑友會或者是包括這些產業主管機關表達我們非常非常樂意跟大家一起討論如果大家在勞動狀態的認定上面是有疑義需要專業的協助的話我們都願意來做這部分的協助"},{"start":487.723,"end":506.438,"text":"他們可能不會主動告訴你因為他們曾經被糾舉過我是問您願不願意主動出擊如果他們被糾舉有被檢舉那在個案上面我們是我們當然都會願意來協助來做小關的檢視那您剛提到的這些申訴的管道你要如何去下達到他們工作的場域呢"},{"start":506.878,"end":518.497,"text":"我們這部分我們可以讓大家知道其實我們就告訴各部會其實也讓大家知道或外界包括學生也好外界也好如果有疑慮的對工作狀態有疑慮的其實我覺得都可以來提出相關的申請或檢舉"},{"start":519.462,"end":548.191,"text":"好下一個是剛您提到的低薪的問題這你也非常理解嘛好那有些業者他雖然沒有辦法立即的做加薪但我舉個例子比如說很有名的雲品酒店他就把週休兩日改成週休三日因此他的員工留任率非常的高那我有注意到你們的勞動力發展署跟觀光署有合作啟動一個飯店業專案媒合計畫今天真的一直講到勞動力發展署啊"},{"start":549.191,"end":564.864,"text":"這個媒合計畫的執行率也是很差你們知道為什麼吧其實我想其實媒合率應該媒合率是可以提高啦是有可以提高跟經濟的空間不過當然我們也在在好我跟你說一下答案"},{"start":565.891,"end":586.78,"text":"有66%經常性薪資未達2.8萬元85.84%未達3萬元表示這個勞務的負荷跟薪資不成正比的情況下你就很難媒合成功嘛還有他還有一個性別差異男女平均薪資的差異甚鉅男性平均是46,599女性36,809"},{"start":590.962,"end":608.541,"text":"那我們今年有個口號是千萬旅客觀光立國的目標現在勞動部長有沒有辦法藉由不管是人力的缺口或者是待遇的提高你有沒有辦法協助觀光署兩個部門一起去達到這個我們要達到觀光立國的目標"},{"start":610.144,"end":633.554,"text":"跟委員說明確實現在在旅宿業的低薪勞工的比例比較高這個問題是我們在考慮跨國勞動力開放與否很核心在思考的命題也就是說我們很不希望這個跨國勞動力的開放造成在產業裡面的低薪低勞的效果"},{"start":634.494,"end":660.181,"text":"所以這是為什麼我們認為這個政策在整體的考慮不是很簡單要開放就開放不是這樣在思考而是必須顧及到本土勞工本國勞工的薪資狀況會不會受到影響這是為什麼我們很審慎的原因這就是我們現在在政策在設計我們要去考慮的核心那我兩個月可以拿到書面報告嗎你打算怎麼解決"},{"start":662.086,"end":671.28,"text":"我想我們現在持續的在研議也在持續的在評估或者是設計方案但是確實就是希望來去面對那尤其是禮數院或者是服務院裡面的問題"},{"start":674.301,"end":693.741,"text":"我們現在整體在這個政策的評估因為目前是還沒有設定特定的時間點沒有設定特定的時間點好最後一個問題這個是您二月曾經召開的記者會說面對勞檢員離職率居高不下而且每一年都有100多位的缺口"},{"start":694.241,"end":715.455,"text":"高壓 高危險 家計也非常的低所以要推出一個專案名字叫做勞動檢查員專業能力以及工作支持方案我想問這個工作支持方案是希望把他們的工作數位化 智慧化等等這個要分四年的時間來推動您這四年預計是花多少的經費來進行"},{"start":718.869,"end":738.384,"text":"跟委員報告,大概我們這個這個方案基本上兩大面向,就是一個剛剛委員提到的是他在執法工具的資訊化、智慧化跟這個行動化,另外一部分是個人的專業的提升跟他的安全,個人的在執法上的一個安全維護"},{"start":741.386,"end":752.097,"text":"我昨天6月3號才跟行政院求證你2月的時候開了一個這麼盛大的記者會行政院說勞動部至今還沒有呈報這項專案計畫對 這個部分是在我們部裡面的一個計畫這部裡面的一個專案的計畫所以你會呈報嗎"},{"start":764.835,"end":781.821,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分如果是我們把計畫呈報給部長這邊來核定基本上這個計畫就展開了所以你們有信心2026年就會開始跟委員報告其實已經經費在籌備已經有一個大概的經費因為我剛剛有問你這個經費打算"},{"start":784.562,"end":800.689,"text":"經費的部分基本上在公務跟基金我們還是要做一個分開依照它的用途那我們目前初估大概是前兩年大概是兩千多萬到三四年會花到三四年那你這個缺口你想要怎麼解決每年一百多人的缺口你希望每年可以縮短多少"},{"start":806.67,"end":835.55,"text":"那個跟文說沒有 這部分會分兩個部分一個是勞檢員人力這個員額的部分 剛才文其實後面講的應該是員額的部分不過我們這個計畫的本身其實是針對勞檢員本身他的資能包括他的裝備包括他的整個的支持的體系的提升所以這個計畫其實這個已經 某個部分已經正在進行中了那其實這個報導部裡面我們其實就可以來進行了好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":413,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時56分）謝謝主席、謝謝委員，我想請洪申翰部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，現在我們的觀光產業面臨一個很大的問題，我們預期希望有1,000萬的觀光客，但是只來了700萬個，再來還有很嚴重的缺工。1111人力銀行有個調查，目前旅宿產業有30%的業者反映有聘僱移工的需求，調查也指出為什麼他們需要聘用移工，是因為第一，可以補足人力的缺口；再來，可以解決排班的困境，然後有立即上工的即戰力。本席感到不解的是，就算您有跟觀光署開過會，或者是沒有開會，為什麼是由觀光署來宣布旅宿業將有條件開放移工這件事情？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們當然確實有跟觀光署進行意見的交換，但是我想很清楚地，相關的政策當然還是由勞動部來主政。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，那您是什麼時候會來宣布相關的資訊？因為旅宿業者關心的是，現在快要暑假了，家長們要帶小朋友在國內玩，或是國外旅客也會過來，可是他們現在人力嚴重不足。如果您已經跟觀光署開會，他們想知道，您預計從哪些國家，或者說期程是如何、大概人數是多少，您可以給我們一些基本的資訊嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為這個涉及到跨國勞動力政策的變更，我們的跨國勞動力政策有幾個最重要的原則，第一個是要避免本國勞工的就業機會受到影響，甚至在接下來的機制設計的部分，我們還希望能夠有助於促成對本勞的加薪；再來就是剛才委員講到的，當然我們也希望能夠兼顧，能夠讓產業有充足的勞動力可以運用，甚至有助於企業的留才，這幾個部分是我們在思考這些相關政策的原則，的確現在我們還在做進一步的政策評估之中。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你剛剛講的都很好，但是觀光署已經宣布有條件開放，所以你這邊是不是也是有條件開放？"],["洪部長申翰：我要再說一次，這個政策是由勞動部來主政。"],["陳委員菁徽：勞動部來宣布？"],["洪部長申翰：勞動部來主政，跨國勞動力政策是勞動部在主政。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以之後其實您還會再正式的發布？現在還沒有一個大概的……"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們現在在做進一步的研議，在做完相關的研議之後，我們會再來跟社會各界報告我們最後的政策走向。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，講到這個的話，因為剛剛我發現，劉建國委員已經很在意，你們有許許多多的專案執行率都非常的差，當然你也知道，勞動部去年8月底開放畢業的僑外生可以任職旅宿業，現在已經6月了，幾乎已經過了一年，你也知道現在有幾個人申請吧？應該知道。"],["洪部長申翰：蠻少的，很少。"],["陳委員菁徽：就只有一個人啊。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛他講1%、2%、兩成，其實這些數據大家已經覺得難以想像了，結果你開放僑外生來任職旅宿業，一年來就只有一個人申請，這個政策是不是也需要大幅的改革？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實僑外生從事旅宿業的部分會有一個條件，是要先經過觀光署或是觀光的相關單位，要經過80個小時的課程，在這個過程中，我們一直在督促觀光署應該要儘快的召開相關的課程，一直到近期相關的課程才開出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是，觀光署課程的密度跟頻繁度比較少，以致於有意願的人想申請，可是他們……"],["洪部長申翰：我們一直提醒觀光署要趕快把課程給開出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您那邊已經有多少人跟您反映說，因為觀光署的課程不夠頻繁，所以他們沒辦法來做？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們一直在督促他，因為確實僑外生要申請中階這件事情，是需要經過80個小時的訓練的。"],["陳委員菁徽：但你還是需要做改變，除了增加頻率以外，你有沒有別的想法？否則就是只有一個人，如果一直都只有一個人怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們會很積極地來改善相關的勞動力問題，所以現在大家在討論，包括這些跨國的勞動力，但是我還是講，前提是怎麼樣不要影響國內本國勞工的就業還有相關的勞動條件。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。我來跟你說為什麼，這是許多人發現的，除了你們勞動部有說要用畢業的僑外生，交通部今年2025年1月1號提出了觀光旅館業及旅館業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點，業者只要透過這個實習要點申請外籍學生來臺實習，就可以規避勞動部的工作許可申請、勞基法還有繁瑣的行政流程。你知道自從開放這個要點，1月1號至今有多少人申請嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個可能要問……"],["陳委員菁徽：1,000人。現在觀光署那邊經由這個要點申請的外籍實習生有1,000人，然後再加上教育部原有的觀光類僑生建教合作專班已有69名，所以你現在要解決這個人力的缺口是1,069比1，顯然你的政策是不及格的啦！當然很多業者反映說，開放外籍實習生來臺填補旅宿業的人力缺口，他們覺得是一股活水，可是非長久之計，雖可以補人力的不足，但是人力問題其實沒有解決，為什麼？因為交通部的這個方案大概是兩年，如果是一般的建教合作，教育部的方案大概是四年左右，或是再長一點點，但這並沒有辦法解決他們長期的人力缺口。另外還有假實習真工作的問題，名目上是為了建教合作，但其實是讓學生做廉價的打工，這是監察院以前糾舉過教育部的問題。所以站在勞工的立場，您是勞動部的大家長，你有沒有辦法明確的跟這些部門去溝通，到底實習跟工作的差別在哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實現在這些實習生在實習場所裡面的狀況，當然需要就個案的事實來做認定，不過我想我們的申訴跟檢舉的管道也是暢通的，如果外界或學生有疑慮的話，其實勞動部都願意來協助檢視他的勞動狀態。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你有沒有考慮找教育部、交通部合作，前往這些有申請實習的單位來進行勞檢調查？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，確實關於實習的部分，現在主政的其實是教育部，那這些實習單位……"],["陳委員菁徽：那他的勞動場域……"],["洪部長申翰：但是我們也很樂意，我們一直跟不管是教育部也好，或者是僑委會，或者是包括這些產業的主管機關表達，我們非常非常樂意跟大家一起討論，如果大家在勞動狀態的認定上面有疑義，需要專業協助的話，我們都願意就這部分來協助。"],["陳委員菁徽：他們可能不會主動告訴你，因為他們曾經被糾舉過，我是問您願不願意主動出擊？"],["洪部長申翰：如果他們被糾舉或是被檢舉，那在個案上面，我們當然都願意協助來做相關的檢視。"],["陳委員菁徽：那您剛剛提到的這些申訴的管道，你要如何去下達到他們工作的場域呢？"],["洪部長申翰：這部分我們可以讓大家知道，其實我們已經有告訴各部會，也讓大家知道，包括學生也好、外界也好，如果對於工作狀態有疑慮的，我覺得都可以提出相關申請或檢舉。"],["陳委員菁徽：下一個是剛剛您提到的低薪問題，這個你也非常理解。有些業者雖然沒辦法立即加薪，但我舉一個例子，比如說很有名的雲品酒店就把週休兩日改成週休三日，因此它的員工留任率非常高。我有注意到你們勞動力發展署跟觀光署有合作啟動一個飯店業專案媒合計畫，今天一直講到勞動力發展署，這個媒合計畫的執行率很差，你們知道為什麼吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我想媒合率應該有可以提高跟精進的空間，不過當然我們也在……"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說答案，有66%經常性薪資未達2.8萬元，85.84%未達3萬元，表示勞務的負荷跟薪資不成正比的情況下，你就很難媒合成功；還有性別差異，男女平均薪資的差異甚鉅，男性平均是4萬6,599元，女性3萬6,809元。","我們今年有個口號是「千萬旅客」、「觀光立國」的目標，現在勞動部長有沒有辦法藉由人力缺口或是待遇提高，協助觀光署兩個部門一起達到這個觀光立國的目標？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實現在旅宿業的低薪勞工比例比較高，這個問題是我們在考慮跨國勞動力開放與否核心思考的命題，也就是說，我們很不希望跨國勞動力的開放在產業裡面造成低薪定錨的效果，所以這就是為什麼我們認為這個政策在整體的考慮下，並不是很簡單地說要開放就開放，不是這樣在思考，而是必須顧及到本國勞工的薪資狀況會不會受到影響，這是為什麼我們很審慎的原因，也是我們現在政策設計要考慮的核心。"],["陳委員菁徽：那我兩個月可以拿到你打算怎麼解決的書面報告嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在持續研議、評估、設計方案，我們確實要去面對尤其是旅宿業或服務業的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：兩個月拿到報告，方便嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們還在做整體的政策評估，目前還沒有設定特定的時間點。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有時間點？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有設定特定的時間點。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。最後一個問題，這是您2月曾經召開的記者會，其中提到面對勞檢員離職率居高不下，而且每一年都有一百多位的缺口，高壓、高危險，加給也非常低，所以要推出一個專案叫做勞動檢查員專業能力及工作支持提升方案。這個工作支持方案是希望把他們的工作數位化、智慧化等等，這要分四年的時間推動，我想問這四年您預計花多少經費來進行？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們這個方案基本上有兩大面向，其中一個是剛剛委員提到的，在執法工具的資訊化、智慧化跟行動化；另外一部分是個人的安全部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：進修。"],["林署長毓堂：個人專業的提升，以及在執法上的安全維護。"],["陳委員菁徽：我昨天6月3號才跟行政院求證，2月的時候你開了一個這麼盛大的記者會，行政院說勞動部至今還沒有呈報這項專案計畫。"],["林署長毓堂：對，跟委員報告，這部分是在我們部裡面的一個專案計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你會呈報嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，如果我們把計畫呈報給部長這邊核定，基本上這個計畫就展開了。"],["陳委員菁徽：你們有信心這個計畫2026年就會開始？"],["林署長毓堂：其實經費已經在籌備，已經有大概的經費出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛有問你這個經費的問題。"],["林署長毓堂：經費的部分，基本上依照它的用途，公務跟基金我們還是要分開，我們目前粗估前兩年大概是兩千多萬，到第三、四年會花到三、四千萬。"],["陳委員菁徽：勞檢員每年一百多人的缺口，你希望每年可以減少多少缺口，你要怎麼解決缺口的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這會分兩個部分，一個方案是勞檢員人力員額的部分，剛剛委員後面講的應該是員額的部分，不過我們這個計畫其實是針對勞檢員本身的知能、裝備、整個支持體系的提升，所以這個計畫某部分已經正在進行中了。這個計畫報到部裡面，我們就可以進行了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。請陳委員來代主席，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：下一位請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162191","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162191","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MCl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09:58:43","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-04","start_time":"2025-06-04T09:48:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-04T09:58:43+08:00","duration":609,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.31096875,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.395343750000002,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.58096875,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":21.765968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.192218750000002,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.293468750000002,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.32721875,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.42846875,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.47909375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.91784375,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.74409375,"end":46.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.85471875,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.37346875,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.47284375,"end":74.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.98971875000001,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.00659375000001,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.96721875,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.11034375,"end":91.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.88596875,"end":93.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.87284375,"end":93.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.88971875,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.58159375000001,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.43784375,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.28534375,"end":155.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.24284375000002,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.89659375000002,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.03909375,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.02534375000002,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.26971875,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.07971875,"end":174.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.09659375,"end":174.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.11346875,"end":174.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.26534375,"end":174.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.83909375000002,"end":176.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.31096875,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.11159375000003,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.50784375,"end":189.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.39784375000002,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.08471875,"end":198.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.03784375,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.41721875000002,"end":206.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.58534375000002,"end":224.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.91409375,"end":208.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.14596875,"end":209.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.43284375000002,"end":209.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.50784375,"end":215.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.35096875000002,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.72221875000002,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.60346875000002,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.18534375000002,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.39596875,"end":249.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.48784375000002,"end":236.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.34846875000002,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.44346875000002,"end":250.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.37159375000002,"end":258.74159375},{"speake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我們請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長麻煩副秘 麻煩部長跟衛福部的次長 請次長委員長"},{"start":27.126,"end":54.057,"text":"最近這個關於這個小朋友被虐待致死很多家長表達了意見那也去進行相關的不管是集會遊行抗議或是表達他們的訴求你們三位都有看到這件事情他們的訴求有沒有人沒有看到都看到嗎那都看到你們有沒有你們三位有沒有人反對他們的訴求"},{"start":61.494,"end":85.012,"text":"應該就來檢討可不可以再重拾可以完備法治來更保護兒童我們對兒童少的這些的被被凌虐被被強害我們認為是零容忍的所以我們我聽到他們的聲音聽到他們的聲音然後也趕快積極的想辦法補上不管是政策或者法令這部分我們那個以最"},{"start":86.198,"end":103.599,"text":"最嚴格的一個態度我們修法來保障兒童那他們的訴求有哪一點你們還是保留了這部分我想各界的聲音我們都會參採會講那各界一見像那個以零唸的這部分兒童"},{"start":104.219,"end":123.026,"text":"兒童這一部分我們立法方向我們是認為這是一個非常不可原諒的犯罪所以上次委員會這次我在座重申我們希望能夠考慮能夠研修把它列入到270或272條加重室友像未滿7歲的零列的這些用殺人的時候零列也有可能用殺人零列來殺人這種我們認為"},{"start":125.447,"end":140.33,"text":"是不是可以更更更重就是比一般的殺人罪更重他是屬於特別的殺人的一個一個加重判刑是不是可以到死刑或無期徒刑把那個十年以上那個拿掉直接就直接判無期徒刑或者死刑那這些不得不得假釋"},{"start":140.811,"end":167.928,"text":"好那另外那個286這部分我們也是考慮是不是把他認為因為我們認為說這個林立智此這部分是不是可以實行這部分我們也是納入我們這個討論的修法這個你剛剛有提到昨天有相關的會議這兩天以後會有相關的會議那明天呢要再開一次會那剛剛這個部長提的這個內容是你的看法還是內部這個討論過程中提出的主張我們提交的一個討論的一個修法的一個方向部裡頭提交的"},{"start":168.368,"end":175.01,"text":"提交給行修小組的一個修法的一個意見第二個我請教衛福部剛剛這個我們召委提到這個相關虐童的這一些統計這個數字"},{"start":188.584,"end":206.966,"text":"你們的認知也是這樣嗎報告委員我們確實是這樣就這幾年其實老實說大家對於兒童那你覺得這個數字是低估還高估報告委員我們現在目前我們就如此來做呈現這數字一定是低估嘛"},{"start":207.426,"end":225.748,"text":"因為這個是法務部統計的嘛有進到法務部系統的進到司法系統的才會出現嘛對不對那在台灣各個角落這些虐童的這些事情嘛那這些事情未必會進到司法的系統嘛可能會有一些黑數好"},{"start":227.25,"end":245.36,"text":"那這個衛福部怎麼處理呢報告委員我們現在目前有幾個部分現在其實最主要大概就是說前端的預防怎麼預防來我跟委員報告我們現在目前就是說在各個結合各個林裡我們都有推出一些所謂的這個零暴力零容忍的這些社區"},{"start":246.42,"end":270.735,"text":"鄰里協助對沒錯鄰里協助我想另外一個方面就是說來加強對於社會各界還有其實最重要事實上大家還是鄰里之間的互助我想還是最重要的那現在執行的狀況怎麼樣包委員我們現在目前就是這主要是社會安全網的這一個部件那這個部分也非常感謝這個立法院對我們相關預算的一個支持"},{"start":271.075,"end":295.284,"text":"那我想這裡面最主要落實的一個問題其實最主要過去大概都有一個所謂法不入家門啦就是認為就是說這個所謂的家暴啦好這一塊你們就繼續努力這個事前的預防還是要放在最前面啦這個衛福部該做因為事情發生啊基本上進到司法的體系裡頭啦那接下來我請問這個司法院的這個副秘書長"},{"start":297.421,"end":322.185,"text":"複必請教一下我們經常在媒體上看到不管是這種虐待小朋友虐待完全沒辦法有行為能力的老人他可能躺在床上然後被虐待被打不管他在家裡或者是在其他的什麼安養中心諸如此類的反正就是後來那個影像發現他被虐待或者是怎麼樣或者說他就被殺害了諸如此類"},{"start":324.037,"end":339.363,"text":"經常啊 我們後面就會看到那個 兇手啊就有精神障礙 他有心智缺陷每次啊 一般人看到這個 後面加這幾個字啊大家的 整個都唸講啊 又再來啊"},{"start":340.356,"end":370.019,"text":"就是說幹了這些事的人然後呢就又被可能是當這個加害者就是這個被告的這個律師啊就拿出來說我這個當事人有精神障礙有心智缺陷所以所以所以一般如果看到這個大家都會理解站在法院的立場就是說這個在做相關的這個判決的時候啊這一些在實務上你們到底怎麼把它納進去考量的"},{"start":370.831,"end":400.391,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想這是現代那個就是文明國家就是法治上就是一定會規定如果說他的責任能力有欠缺的時候他能不能對他的這個形式上這個責任就是扛起這個責任這個事實上法律都有那個規定也就是說他如果是完全欠缺責任能力的時候那他當然就沒有辦法就是讓他負擔這個刑責那另外到了那個程序上的時候呢就是說他可不可以"},{"start":401.131,"end":417.989,"text":"有沒有足夠的這個去就是辯護的這個能力這個也是要有足夠的辯護的能力因為我們今天去包括蔣介石委員提出來的這個虐童這個現在新的這個提案叫做死刑或無期徒刑就兩種而已啦,沒辦法所以如果剛剛提到這種"},{"start":424.255,"end":449.122,"text":"他人虐待,你還要說發呱呱,因為精神障礙、心智缺陷也有強烈的證據,他過去也有就醫紀錄,都有他最後還是會判死刑跟無期徒刑,就沒有別的路可以走了是不是這要看那個個案,就是要回到刑法總則第19條就是說有沒有那個減刑的規定所以他還是有可能被減刑?是"},{"start":450.914,"end":471.749,"text":"結果大家看他很恐慌很恐慌然後那個影像大家看起來說這張的要死結果大家一般人的邏輯說這張的不怕死刑那會痛結果法官判的時候又回到說因為他精神障礙因為他心智缺陷因為怎麼樣怎麼樣所以沒有把他判無期也沒有把他判死刑你們認為呢?全世界都這樣嗎?還是像我們台灣這樣而已?就是"},{"start":480.925,"end":484.247,"text":"這是全世界都是這樣的規定,另外還有身心障礙者權利公約,就是這裡頭也有相關規定所以這個是,民眾如果看到這個,雖然說不爽,怎麼可以這樣,整庭全世界都是這樣"},{"start":503.103,"end":525.199,"text":"對 而且他跟委員報告就是說在法律那個設計上除了刑罰之外他還有一個保安處分如果說他那個精神障礙有狀況的話沒有辦法負完全的這個責任的時候他還要保安處分譬如說讓他到什麼機構去去就醫或者是在一個地方有儲遇對 他是兩條軌道的一個儲遇方式"},{"start":526.444,"end":542.719,"text":"最後請部長部長 這個修法大家都很重視很多委員也提了相關的版本包括國民黨的黨團 黨團都提版本這事情說實在的也不能太拖今天討論 您說您長的長有討論 還有這兩天也討論所以您的版本要加速我們會盡快提出來"},{"start":553.772,"end":569.902,"text":"社會期待,你這樣又拖下去,因為我知道去年是有修了一個加重基礎,那可是這一段期間大家對這些案子,也是都吃不乾,希望說,這個,我們的政府啊,能夠拿出態度來"},{"start":571.039,"end":581.867,"text":"所以不能再拖,如果整天都有開會討論,就盡快有版本就盡快納進來討論,反正李範圍6月、7月都有回6月、7月都有回,大家趕快把這事情做一個改革,下回到我就接受了不然這個事情拖拖刷刷,這個過程當中你如果再拖下去這個過程當中如果還有發生不幸的事情,這沒人擋下去啦"},{"start":600.925,"end":605.851,"text":"這沒人擔心所以這可能法務部要加油好不好謝謝委員我們要加速"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時48分）謝謝主席。請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長及衛福部次長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘、麻煩部長及衛福部次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["王委員義川：最近很多家長對兒虐致死案件表達很多意見，也透過集會、遊行、抗議表達訴求，你們三位應該都有看到這件事情及他們的訴求，有沒有人沒有看到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有看到。"],["王委員義川：都看到了。你們三位有沒有人反對他們的訴求？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為對兒童的照顧與保護應該就法律來檢討，看可不可以再充實並完備法制來保護兒童。對兒少被凌虐，甚至被戕害，我們是零容忍的，所以我們有聽到他們的聲音。"],["王委員義川：有聽到他們的聲音？那就要積極想辦法補上，不管是政策或者法令嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會以最嚴格的態度，透過修法來保障兒童。"],["王委員義川：他們的訴求有哪一點你們還是保留了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對於各界的聲音，我們都會參採，會廣納各界的意見，像凌虐兒童的部分，我們的立法方向認為這是非常不可原諒的犯罪，所以除了上一次委員會之外，這一次我再做重申，我們希望能夠研修，把它列入到第二百七十條或第二百七十二條的加重事由，像對未滿七歲的凌虐，事後又殺人的話，因為也有可能用凌虐作為殺人的手段，這一種我們認為是不是可以更重，就是比一般殺人罪更重，它是屬於特別殺人的加重犯行，是不是可以到死刑或無期徒刑，把十年以上拿掉，就直接判無期徒刑或者死刑，然後這些也不得假釋。"],["王委員義川：好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，在第二百八十六條的部分，我們也考慮是不是把它加重，就是對於凌虐致死罪的部分是不是可以判處死刑的部分，我們也會納入修法討論時的其中一條……"],["王委員義川：你剛剛提到昨天有相關的會議，這兩天也會有相關的會議嘛……"],["鄭部長銘謙：明天也要再開一次會確定……"],["王委員義川：剛剛部長提到的內容是你的看法，還是內部討論過程中提出的主張？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們提交討論的修法方向。"],["王委員義川：部裡頭提交的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：提交給刑修小組的修法意見。"],["王委員義川：就是你剛剛講的那一段？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們修法的意見。"],["王委員義川：好。接下來我要請教衛福部。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["王委員義川：剛剛我們召委提到相關虐童的一些統計數字，你們的認知也是這樣嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，確實是這樣，這幾年老實說，大家對於兒童……"],["王委員義川：你覺得這個數字是低估還是高估？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們目前就如實的來做呈現……"],["王委員義川：這個數字一定是低估嘛，因為這個是法務部統計的，有進到法務部系統、進到司法系統的才會出現嘛，對不對？但是在臺灣各個角落還是會有一些虐童的事件未必會進到司法系統嘛！"],["呂次長建德：可能會有一些黑數存在。"],["王委員義川：這個部分衛福部怎麼處理呢？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在有幾個部分，最主要大概就是前端的預防……"],["王委員義川：怎麼預防？"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，我們目前就是結合各個鄰里，我們有推出一些所謂零暴力、零容忍的這些社區……"],["王委員義川：鄰里協助？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，鄰里協助。另外一方面，就是加強對於社會各界及……其實最重要的，事實上，鄰里之間的互助我想才是最重要的。"],["王委員義川：現在執行的狀況怎麼樣？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前最主要就是社會安全網的布建，這個部分也非常感謝立法院對我們相關預算的支持，我想這裡面最主要是落實的問題，過去大概都有所謂「法不入家門」的觀念，就是認為所謂的家暴啦……"],["王委員義川：好，這一塊你們就繼續努力……"],["呂次長建德：是，我們會持續……"],["王委員義川：事前的預防還是要放在最前面，這是衛福部該做的，因為等到事情發生後就進到司法體系裡頭了。"],["呂次長建德：對的，感謝委員。"],["王委員義川：接下來要請問司法院副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：副秘，請教一下，我們經常在媒體上看到，不管是虐待小朋友、虐待完全沒有行為能力的老人，他可能躺在床上，然後被虐待、被打，不管在家裡或者是在其他什麼安養中心，諸如此類的，反正就是後來從影像中看到他被虐待或者是就被殺害了，諸如此類的。經常我們後面就會看到那個兇手有精神障礙、有心智缺陷，每次一般人看到後面出現這幾個字，大家就整個都抓狂了，認為又來了，結果幹了這些事的人，可能加害者（被告）的律師就會出來說他的當事人有精神障礙、心智缺陷，所以、所以、所以，但一般人看到這個結果，大家都會抓狂。副秘，站在法院的立場，法官做相關判決的時候，在實務上這一些你們到底是怎麼納進去考量的？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，我想這是現代文明國家在法制上一定會規定的，如果他的責任能力有欠缺的時候，他能不能在刑事上扛起責任？這個事實上法律都有規定，也就是說，他如果是完全欠缺責任能力的時候，那當然就沒有辦法讓他負擔刑責。另外，到了程序上的時候，他可不可以、有沒有足夠的辯護能力，這也是要有足夠的辯護能力才能……"],["王委員義川：因為今天包括很多委員提出來有關虐童的部分，現在新的提案是要處死刑或無期徒刑，就這兩種刑度而已，沒有別的了，所以如果是剛剛提到的這種，加害人在凌虐他人之後，最後法官判決時認為他有精神障礙、心智缺陷，也有強烈的證據，包括他過去的就醫紀錄等等都有，他最後還是會被判死刑或無期徒刑，就沒有別的路可以走了，是不是？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這要看那個個案，就是要回到刑法總則第十九條來看有沒有減刑規定的適用。"],["王委員義川：所以他還是有可能被減刑？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：這種是大家看了之後認為很可惡、很可惡的，看了影像後，大家都會覺得這種人應該要被判死刑，大概一般人的邏輯都認為這種人沒有被判死刑怎麼可以，結果法官判的時候又回到了因為他有精神障礙、因為他有心智缺陷，因為怎麼樣又怎麼樣，所以沒有判無期徒刑，也沒有判死刑，你們認為呢？全世界都這樣嗎？還是只有我們臺灣這樣而已？"],["王副秘書長梅英：全世界都是這樣子的規定，另外還有身心障礙者權利公約裡頭也有相關規定。"],["王委員義川：OK，所以這個就是說，民眾如果看到這種狀況，雖然感到很不爽、抓狂，質疑為什麼可以這樣，但這種規定是全世界都有的，是嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，而且跟委員報告，在法律的設計上，除了刑罰之外，還有保安處分，如果他的精神障礙狀況導致沒有辦法負完全責任的時候，還會有保安處分的部分，譬如讓他到什麼機構去就醫或者是在某個地方做處遇，這是兩條軌道的處遇方式。"],["王委員義川：最後請教法務部部長。部長，這個修法大家都很重視，很多委員也提了相關的版本，包括國民黨黨團都提版本了，這個事情說實在的也不能再拖了，你說你們昨天有討論，這兩天也有討論……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一週內會討論完畢。"],["王委員義川：所以你們的版本要加速啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會儘快提出來。"],["王委員義川：這是社會的期待，你們不能再這樣拖下去了，我知道去年是有修了一個加重其刑，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二百八十六條第五項。"],["王委員義川：可是這一段期間，大家對這些案子的被害者也都覺得很不捨，希望我們的政府能夠拿出態度來，所以不要再拖了。如果你們這幾天都有在開會討論，只要有版本就儘快提出來，可以納進來討論，反正立法院在6月、7月都還會開會，你們就趕快把修正案送進來，大家趕快把這件事情做一個解決，社會才能接受啦，不然這個事情拖拖拉拉，再拖下去，在這個過程當中如果再度發生不幸的事情，這個責任沒有人承擔得起，所以可能要請法務部多加油，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員，我們會加速，謝謝。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162190","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162190","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98284203dff1f5230e4b69516374867620cef0976ba27860ef1202c9b1c5cbfb041b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"09:43:06 - 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那勞保的部分我們是確定給複製所以基金收益的波動是不會影響到勞保給付的金額我想這部分是我們一定會來跟社會來講清楚剛剛委員在講說市面上面在流傳的這個說法我想它是不正確的對啊 所以你們就是站在勞動部的這個立場一定要儘早把這事情說明清楚不然好像2000多一起處理2300萬人平均每一個人要賠1萬多這種算法實在是"},{"start":94.705,"end":110.454,"text":"實在是有在勞動民心我覺得是很不正確原本投資是有起有落那我們有設定所謂的保障機制基本上就不可能有這種事情發生所以這必須要盡快的說明清楚是其一但是美國關稅90天期間將至在7月8號前或許我們會朝向"},{"start":117.077,"end":139.383,"text":"好的方向去發展也或許會朝向不是好的方向去發展萊頓部這邊針對相關的基金運用上有沒有什麼因應的作為跟基本的方針因為當川普大力宣布這樣的事情的情況之下確實造成很大的市場上的波動那我們現在不曉得萊頓部的因應作為是什麼"},{"start":140.66,"end":163.602,"text":"我想因為現在台灣的我們的國家的談判團隊正在跟美國在做這個關稅的談判但是我想勞動部有可能就像剛剛文說有可能比較好往好的狀況方也有可能往比較這個嚴峻的狀況那從勞動部角度我們當然一定會把情境設定是比較嚴峻的狀況來去做相關的準備"},{"start":164.022,"end":192.359,"text":"因為如果嚴峻的狀況你過得了的話好的狀況其實當然就也比較能夠過所以我們包括現在在這個現在的這個特別條例裡面其實已經有規劃了150億的這個經費那如果150億來協助來支持我們勞動朋友度過關稅的這樣子的衝擊還不夠的話其實我們也還有包括我們的救保或者是救安的基金其實可以來支應不是不是不是部長我的問題focus是在這個"},{"start":194.04,"end":215.465,"text":"勞動基金的運用這些相關的基金有沒有一個具體的方針然後避免這樣的這個基金的虧損持續擴大對不對跟委員報告我們勞動基金的運用我們一向就是從長期來看市場的波動一定有我當然說是從長期來看啦不是看短暫的這個我非常清楚嘛對不對但是因為"},{"start":216.545,"end":240.555,"text":"因為川普大帝的這樣的一個震撼力有時候真的你必須要去有一些具體的因應方針來做處理我們會持續關我們一向本來就是會關注市場的變化隨時來調整那在市場整個大跌的時候我們的基金的運用絕對不會像市場所說的全部殺出認賠出來這個反而對我們基金不利"},{"start":244.577,"end":254.402,"text":"那我要補充說明 你要不要出言你不用在委會講你只要跟我講說因為這個美國對你關稅而且7月8日到期有沒有任何的你們有評估過的相關研擬的具體方針"},{"start":257.878,"end":278.669,"text":"可以來做這樣的較好的營運 避免基金的虧損擴大 就這樣而已委員跟您報告 這個投資本來每天就要看市場所以我們內部隨時都在調整我們的策略我們基本上我們每年有一個大策略但是我們每季也有 我們隨時都在"},{"start":280.37,"end":299.586,"text":"你們每年都有大策略我知道但是你們每年大策略沒有包含到川普的這種個性的死難嘛所以他是一個很突破狀況他是一個很不確定的狀況他是一個從頭到尾我們不可預知的一個狀態情況之下劉謙許有沒有相關的因應的具體方針這樣就好了啦你簡單回應我就好了好不好"},{"start":301.13,"end":319.609,"text":"有沒有啦有有好謝謝這樣就好了不要再講下去了對你又說到時候是因為你的一些講話造成一些波動這樣不好對不對好那我們接著請請我回報請部長你再看一下因為是受到美國人關稅這樣的一個影響嘛目前這個全台實務薪假"},{"start":320.089,"end":331.576,"text":"已經達到155家所以影響的勞工高達2800多人無薪假當然是直接影響勞工的大議題未來七八個月會不會有更多企業、廠家提出無薪假通報我們不能去預估"},{"start":334.96,"end":359.069,"text":"未來這幾個月到底可能會有在多少家提出來然後我們針對這幾家可能受到衝擊是怎麼樣有沒有去做相關的一些預估各位報告其實我們一直在密切的監測跟關注現在這個我們會講減班休息因為它並不是真的無薪OK對那這個減班休息的加速那確實現在是大概其實是有微幅的緩步的上升"},{"start":359.989,"end":384.817,"text":"那但是17月8號之後會不會原有的直接衝擊變成間接衝擊這個影響會不會更大我們現在其實我們也做好相關的準備了這個準備其實就包括我們的僱用安定措施包括我們這個充電再觸發的措施都是如果接下來這個無薪假確實有擴大的話怎麼樣來支持我們可能會受影響的勞工在收入上面的這個減損那我們怎麼樣來協助"},{"start":387.578,"end":414.79,"text":"所以這幾個我們都做包括剛才在講到就是說透過特別條例的150億那也包括我們的救保的基金其實就是來做這方面的因應好 我只是要提醒部長因為我還是特別強調剛剛上個題目問題是一樣的因為你面對川普的狀況很多事情你是很難預估的然後我們或許跟美國談的後來可能會朝向很好的方向去發展那有些事情就一定能解嘛那萬一不是呢 相反之"},{"start":415.45,"end":433.219,"text":"那勞動部可能要辦起更重大的這樣的一個應變的能力跟責任嘛現在確實減班休息裡面目前看起來是在比較多那有幾個特定的產業其實增加的幅度會多一點可是我們其實很密切在監測也主動的跟這些相關的工會或者產業在做座談來提供我們協助我知道你都有在做啦"},{"start":433.339,"end":462.091,"text":"不過我是針對點的這一個現在我們遇到這個狀況真的是跟以前完全不一樣那如果我用兩千零八兩千我還下了對比當時全國持是無薪假高達五百八十幾家啦受到影響的勞工將近快到二十四萬嘛對不對那我們我們新任的調兵師我們黃師長宋永是這麼講嘛齁目前對等對美的這個對等關稅能有高度的不確定性台灣也正與美國談判中政府採取謹慎態度密切掌握通報的事業單位狀況"},{"start":463.451,"end":485.203,"text":"會主動聯繫通報事業單位進行輔導方式提供勞動部勞動力發展署如充電載出發訓練計畫僱用安定措施等支援以保障勞工權利對不對OK沒問題我請教一下目前155家有提出充電載出發訓練計畫還有僱用安定措施有幾家"},{"start":486.567,"end":513.049,"text":"現在是比較少的 目前有提出為什麼會比較少因為不好用因為不知道怎麼用應該是確實有些僱主我們其實有問他說你要不要提出比方說充電材出發可是僱主目前是說他沒有意願你們要去鼓勵他們要提出嘛對不對當然而且我們現在其實在甚至檢討因為過去其實是要透過僱主才能夠申請我們現在新的設計勞工直接就可以申請不然你能不能直接導入我150家目前"},{"start":513.729,"end":523.877,"text":"提出是幾家啦 簡單就好這兩個計畫 充電站目前是七家七家 七家這樣不到一趴多 對啊僱用呢 僱用安定措施"},{"start":524.799,"end":549.162,"text":"顧問安定措施現在是大概30家30家兩成多合理嗎合不合理嗎我們確實覺得要再提高所以這也是為什麼我們現在是設計我們自己包括勞動部跟地方政府我們會主動的來聯繫已經放這個減班休息的勞工你們的計畫到底是不是沒有吸引力"},{"start":553.26,"end":572.106,"text":"我自己覺得當很多的雇主他聽完完整的了解我們計劃的設計以後他們是覺得這是不錯的有吸引力的可是確實現在是有很多的企業他對我們相關的企業聽完之後覺得有吸引力然後又不提出然後提出又是一層多有一些聽完他就有來表達155家目前為止執行有聽完的幾家"},{"start":576.221,"end":593.251,"text":"我們其實都沒有主動聯繫啦沒有主動聯繫不然你怎麼會講說有幾家聽起來覺得還不錯是幾家嘛我們一個電台資料基本上要有個基本的數額嘛對不對155家如果是有一家兩家聽到覺得還不錯這兩家又不提出來那這真的還不錯了"},{"start":597.765,"end":600.752,"text":"監察院這個報告裡面這當然不是新的署長的任內也不是部長任內"},{"start":608.601,"end":633.407,"text":"老化署青年自來發展中心運作長達12年能為訂定服務基線均與產出型指標衡量績效至達成旅超標200%甚至破千以上能夠提升青年就業資成效為敏因為優先對就業不利的青年族群建構差異性自來輔導模式服務內容高度重疊交易部門導致相關經費預算乃至專職專業人力長期低度投資已發展"},{"start":638.428,"end":665.095,"text":"我要一次講這兩件事情啦這是監察院剛剛糾正的5月21號糾正的沒有錯嘛對不對好那我再回歸到頭這裡面還有很多洋洋灑灑寫的一大堆東西啦齁我再回歸到頭就是說你的充電債出發你的職癌你的僱用安定措施到底陳如妮說的好不好用聽了大家都覺得還不錯但是大家都不提出申請還是提出申請的比例非常低"},{"start":666.994,"end":671.481,"text":"應該就是有檢討的必要的空間了嘛對不對對當然當然都有精進的空間"},{"start":674.338,"end":698.134,"text":"什麼時候可以檢討盤整完成 提出修正相關的計畫因為7月8號快到了到時候還是這個計畫一層多 那個計畫兩層多根本說明關於充電災出發的部分我們其實近期我們已經都取得了這些可能放減班休息勞工的聯繫方式我們會直接聯繫這個勞工本人不一定非得要透過僱主"},{"start":698.954,"end":712.875,"text":"因為過去就是僱主他覺得他他沒有意願可是這可能會影響了勞工來舉舉的自願的權利變化就是說原有僱主提出申請現在勞工可以提出申請嘛對不對好這個應變的措施我OK我接受但是實質的內容"},{"start":715.461,"end":738.096,"text":"真的有幫助嗎真的覺得不錯嗎還是部長你個人認為不錯他其實能夠獲得的訓練的津貼那其實是對於勞工在收入上面的影響是有幫助的我們就要檢視現在才六月初而已嘛我們六月底來檢視嘛反正我們這是研會到七月底了呀對不對這一個月內如果這兩個計畫你都沒有辦法因為一個一成多實在很難去幫你訂這個KPI啦你都沒有辦法超過五成"},{"start":745.97,"end":749.169,"text":"那你這兩個計畫要不要大幅的去修正?要不要?"},{"start":750.356,"end":777.631,"text":"要不要?我們會強化的來執行但是你不能逼人家執行啊你不能在我那邊說大家聽起來都不錯啊但是我們就不要申請啊結果你如果說我怎樣怎樣他就給你打出來申請結果那個還是假的就像監察院糾正的狀況狀況的事情會持續發生我不好意思再唸下去的這幾項再唸下去真的這個老花鼠新來的署長可能你要有相關的因應作為"},{"start":779.144,"end":796.936,"text":"因為監察院已經提出糾正你不要未來又這兩個計畫又被糾正不好我只是提醒一個月內相關的調整計畫成立委員會然後提高申請的比例當然破50%OK謝謝好 謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝各位辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（9時43分）謝謝主席。部長就不用再坐下去了，請部長上來。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：部長，根據勞金局公布的最新資料，目前勞動基金總規模是七兆一千多億，在今年美國對等關稅影響下，已經虧損了將近一千九百多億，如果再加上委託管理的國民年金保險基金，還有農民的退休基金，總虧損應該高達兩千多億。民間有個說法，就是平均每人賠一萬多，你覺得這樣的說法正確嗎？如果不正確，請趕快更正，說明清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：我想這個說法當然是不對的，勞工朋友提繳的年金，是絕對不會減少的，尤其在我們的勞退機制裡面，其實就有保障的收益制度。過去一段時間因為美國關稅的原因，所以它在收益上面雖然看起來是有些波動，但是我們在這個勞退的保障收益機制裡面，其實是有確保累積的收益一定不會低於銀行兩年期的定存利率，這是勞退的部分。","勞保的部分，我們是確定給付制，所以基金收益的波動不會影響到勞保給付的金額，我想這部分我們一定會跟社會講清楚。至於剛才委員說市面上在流傳的這個說法，我想它是不正確的。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以站在勞動部的立場，你們一定要儘早把這件事情說明清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：不然兩千多億去除以兩千三百萬人，平均每一個人要賠一萬多，這種算法實在是擾動民心，我覺得這是很不正確的。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["劉委員建國：原本投資就是有起有落，你們有設定所謂的保障機制，基本上就不可能有這種事情發生。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以這必須要儘快說明清楚，這是其一。其二，美國關稅的90天寬期將至，在7月8號前，或許我們會朝向好的方向去發展，也或許會朝向不是好的方向去發展，勞動部這邊針對相關基金的運用有沒有什麼因應作為跟基本方針？因為當川普大帝宣布這個事情之後，確實造成很大的市場波動嘛，我們現在不曉得勞動部的因應作為是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在我們國家的談判團隊正在跟美國做關稅的談判，就像剛剛委員所說的，有可能往好的狀況發展，也有可能會是比較嚴峻的狀況，從勞動部角度，我們當然一定會把情境設定為比較嚴峻的狀況去做相關的準備，因為如果嚴峻的狀況過得了的話，好的狀況當然也比較能夠過，所以包括在現在的這個特別條例裡面，其實已經有規劃了150億的經費，如果150億來協助、支持我們勞工朋友度過關稅的衝擊還不夠的話，其實我們也還有包括就保或是就安的基金可以來支應。"],["劉委員建國：不是、不是、不是！部長，我的問題是focus在勞金局運用這些相關的基金有沒有一個具體的方針，然後避免基金的虧損持續擴大嘛，對不對？"],["蘇局長郁卿：跟委員報告，我們勞動基金的運用一向就是從長期來看，市場的波動一定有，尤其……"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道是從長期來看，不是看短暫的，這個我非常清楚嘛！但是因為川普大帝這樣的一個震撼力啦，有時候真的你必須要有一些具體的因應方針來做處理。"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，我們會持續關注，其實我們本來就會關注市場的變化隨時來調整，在市場大跌的時候，我們的基金運用絕對不會像市場所說的全部殺出、認賠出來，這個反而對我們的基金不利。我要補充說明……"],["劉委員建國：要不要出來你不用在委員會講，你只要跟我講，因應美國對我們的關稅，而且寬限期在7月8號到期，有沒有任何你們有評估過的、相關研擬的具體方針可以來做較好的因應，避免基金的虧損擴大，就這樣而已。"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，委員，跟您報告，投資本來就要每天看市場，所以我們內部隨時都在調整我們的策略，基本上我們每年有一個大策略，但是我們隨時都在……"],["劉委員建國：你們每年都有大策略，這個我知道，但是你們每年的大策略沒有包含到川普的這種個性的使然嘛！"],["蘇局長郁卿：是。"],["劉委員建國：他是一個很突發的狀況，他是一個很不確定的狀況，他是一個從頭到尾我們不可預知的狀況，在這樣的情況之下，勞金局有沒有相關因應的具體方針？回答這個就好了啦，你簡單回應我就好，好不好？"],["蘇局長郁卿：跟委員報告……"],["劉委員建國：有沒有啦？"],["蘇局長郁卿：有。"],["劉委員建國：有？好，OK，謝謝，這樣就好了，不要再講下去了。"],["蘇局長郁卿：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：你再說下去，到時候市場因為你的一些講法而造成一些波動，這樣也不好，對不對？好，請回吧。","部長，你再看一下，因為受到美國對等關稅的影響，目前全臺實施無薪假的家數已經達到155家，受影響的勞工人數高達兩千八百多人，無薪假當然是直接影響勞工的大議題，未來七、八個月會不會有更多企業、廠家提出無薪假通報，部裡有沒有去預估未來這幾個月到底可能會有多少家再提出來？你們針對這幾家可能受到的衝擊是怎麼樣？有沒有去做相關的一些預估？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，其實我們一直在密切的監測跟關注這個部分，我們會講減班休息啦，因為他並不是真的無薪。"],["劉委員建國：OK。"],["洪部長申翰：這個減班休息的家數，確實現在是有微幅的緩步上升，但是……"],["劉委員建國：在7月8號之後，會不會原有的直接衝擊變成間接衝擊，這個影響會不會更大？會不會？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在其實也做好相關的準備了，這個準備就包括我們的僱用安定措施，包括充電再出發的措施，都是如果接下來這個無薪假確實有擴大的話，怎麼樣支持、協助可能會受影響的勞工在收入上面的減損，所以這幾個我們都做，包括剛才講到的透過特別條例的150億，也包括我們的就保基金，其實就是來做這方面的因應。"],["劉委員建國：好，我只是要提醒部長，我還是特別強調，跟剛剛上個題目的問題是一樣的，因為你面對川普的狀況，很多事情是很難預估啦，我們或許跟美國談到後來可能會朝向很好的方向去發展，有些事情就可以迎刃而解嘛，但萬一不是呢？相反之，那勞動部可能要有更重大的應變能力跟責任嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：現在確實減班休息的部分看起來是稍微比較多，有幾個特定的產業增加的幅度會多一點，可是我們很密切在監測，也主動的跟這些相關工會或者產業在做座談，來提供我們的協助。"],["劉委員建國：我知道你都有在做了，不過我針對的是，現在我們遇到的這個狀況真的是跟以前完全不一樣，如果我用2008年的金融海嘯來對比，當時全國實施無薪假的高達五百八十幾家，受到影響的勞工將近快24萬人嘛，對不對？我們新任的條平司黃司長受訪時也是這麼講嘛，他說：目前美對等關稅仍有高度不確定性，臺灣也正與美國談判中，政府會採取謹慎態度，密切掌握通報的事業單位狀況，會主動聯繫通報的事業單位，進行輔導訪視，提供勞動部勞動力發展署如「充電再出發訓練計畫」和「僱用安定措施」等資源，以保障勞工權益。對不對？OK，沒問題。我請教一下，目前155家有提出充電再出發訓練計畫或僱用安定措施的有幾家？"],["洪部長申翰：現在是比較少的，目前有提出……"],["劉委員建國：為什麼會比較少？因為不好用還是不知道怎麼用？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們有檢討，確實有些雇主，我們其實有問他說要不要提出充電再出發，可是雇主目前是說沒有意願。"],["劉委員建國：你們還去鼓勵他們要提出嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，而且我們現在其實也在檢討，因為過去是要透過雇主才能夠申請，我們現在新的設計是勞工直接就可以申請。"],["劉委員建國：OK。部長，你能不能直接答復我，這155家目前提出的有幾家？簡單就好，這兩個計畫。"],["洪部長申翰：充電再出發目前是7家。"],["劉委員建國：7家，這樣不到一成。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：僱用安定措施呢？"],["洪部長申翰：僱用安定措施現在是大概30家。"],["劉委員建國：30家大概二成，合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：合不合理嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我們確實覺得要再提高，所以這也是為什麼我們現在是設計，我們自己……"],["劉委員建國：你們的計畫是不是有問題？"],["洪部長申翰：包括勞動部跟地方政府，我們會主動的來聯繫已經在減班休息的勞工，不然等……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你們的計畫到底是不是沒有吸引力？"],["洪部長申翰：我自己覺得，當很多的雇主聽完且完整了解我們的計畫設計以後是覺得這是不錯的、有吸引力的，可是確實現在有很多企業對我們相關的計畫跟協助……"],["劉委員建國：聽完之後覺得有吸引力，但是又不提出？提出的還不到一成，你還覺得有吸引力？"],["洪部長申翰：有一些聽完後就有表達提出了。"],["劉委員建國：155家到目前為止，執行有聽完的幾家？這樣來算可能會比較精準。"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實有主動聯繫啦。"],["劉委員建國：有主動聯繫，不然你怎麼會講有幾家聽了之後覺得還不錯，是幾家？我們的data資料基本上要有一個基本數額嘛，對不對？155家中如果只有一家、兩家聽過覺得還不錯，但這一、兩家又不提出來，那這真的還不錯了！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們會再……"],["劉委員建國：監察院的報告，這當然不是新署長的任內，然後也不是部長任內，調查報告提到「勞發署青年職涯發展中心運作長達12年仍未訂定服務基線，均以『產出型』指標衡量績效，致達成率屢超標200%甚至破千以上，能否提升青年就業力之成效未明；又未優先針對就業不利青年族群建構差異化職涯輔導模式，服務內容高度重疊教育部門，致相關經費預算乃至專職專業人力長期低度投資與發展。」我要一次講這兩個事情啦，這是監察院在5月21號提出的糾正，沒有錯嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，這個調查報告裡面還有很多，洋洋灑灑寫了一大堆東西，我再回歸到你的充電再出發、你的僱用安定措施到底好不好用？誠如你所說的，聽了之後大家都覺得還不錯，但是大家都不提出申請，還是提出申請的比率非常低？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說……"],["劉委員建國：這就有檢討的必要空間了嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，當然都有精進的空間。"],["劉委員建國：什麼時候可以檢討盤整完成，提出相關的修正計畫？因為7月8號快到了，如果到時候這個計畫績效還不到一成、那個計畫二成，這樣緩不濟急嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，關於充電再出發的部分，其實近期我們已經都取得了這些可能放減班休息勞工的聯繫方式，我們會直接聯繫勞工本人，不一定非得要透過雇主，因為過去就是雇主覺得沒有意願，可是這可能會影響勞工取得資源的權利。"],["劉委員建國：你現在只是變化，原來是雇主提出申請，現在勞工也可以提出申請嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，這個應變的措施OK，我接受，但是實質的內容真的有幫助嗎？真的覺得不錯嗎？還是部長你個人認為不錯？"],["洪部長申翰：他其實能夠獲得訓練的津貼，那其實是對於……"],["劉委員建國：我們就這樣來檢視嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對於勞工在收入上面的影響是有幫助的。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我們就來檢視，現在才6月初而已嘛，我們6月底來檢視嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：反正我們這次延會到7月底，對不對？這一個月內，如果這兩個計畫你都沒有辦法……只有一成多，我實在很難去幫你定這個KPI啦……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：你都沒有辦法超過五成，那你這兩個計畫要不要大幅的去修正，要不要？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會強化的來……"],["劉委員建國：你在委員會做個承諾嘛，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會強化的來執行……"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道你會強化來執行，但是你不能逼人家執行啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：你不能在委員會說，大家聽了都說不錯啊，但是人家就不申請啊，結果你跟他說我怎樣、怎樣、怎樣，然後就多出好幾個出來申請，結果那個還是假的，就像監察院糾正的事情會持續發生，我不好意思再唸下去了，就是這幾項啦，再唸下去真的……勞發署新來的署長，可能你要有相關的因應作為，因為監察院已經提出糾正，你不要未來這兩個計畫又被糾正，不好，我只是提醒。一個月內相關的調整計畫呈給委員會，然後提高申請的比例……"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["劉委員建國：破百分之五十，OK？謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝主席，謝謝部長，謝謝。各位辛苦了。"],["主席（王委員育敏代）：謝謝劉建國召委。","接下來請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162189","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162189","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982886daa94b115b0947b8fa27110b4cf3b3f0976ba27860ef12ef4531da6df9367e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:31:37 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部長 還有衛福部次長委員早安"},{"start":16.547,"end":44.667,"text":"我先請教部長以及複密延續綱的問題很簡單的問題啦因為之前有某一位民進黨的委員說我們講說這個世界上沒有一個國家法律的體力是要求所有省級包括是法律省一致決沒有這樣的體力那這位立委在國會的殿堂欺騙全國人民拿著他法律的專業的外衣來欺騙全國人民說"},{"start":45.888,"end":58.64,"text":"什麼美國陪審團就有這樣子的做法但是我現在請問的問題是有沒有哪一個國家的法律體力是要求事實審以及法律審所有法官對於死刑判決要一致決來 複密"},{"start":72.458,"end":100.869,"text":"你們不要再跟我聚焦什麼陪審團怎麼樣不用再講那個啦我們就講個最簡單事實審法律審的法官要一致決哪一個國家要求全部的那個體力是要這樣就了解那個歐洲的部分似乎沒有這樣子的就是要求一致決那但是美國就是有一些那個那美國聯邦的最高法院呢我現在講的是事實審加法律審喔你不要再給我聚焦在哪一個因為我覺得有一些人現在都會偷換概念"},{"start":102.725,"end":116.802,"text":"好 那我跟你講喔 之前那個張大法官喔他也講得很清楚啦 他是留學美國的 他講得非常清楚在美國的法律省並沒有這樣的要求所以剛黃國昌委員才會在這邊跟你們說"},{"start":118.203,"end":133.19,"text":"之前他有來詢問過你們這個世界上有沒有哪一個體力是要求所有的市市審法律審都要一致決那我們這邊得到的是沒有那當時你們回覆也是沒有那張大法官他說的也是沒有"},{"start":133.67,"end":155.433,"text":"所以我這邊可能先跟你們說明一下那這就是我們一直覺得說政治人物實在不應該隨便的誤導那我們也很希望說找到是不是有某一個很小國家或怎麼樣他們有自己特殊的體力但是目前為止是沒有那比較世界比較大的或法律較先進的國家我們從制度上面來看並沒有說要求所有的省級"},{"start":156.353,"end":183.37,"text":"全部都要法官一致決我想這個部分我們想說先說明一下好那再來我請教一下那個司法院黃凌凱被判死刑然後定宴再進行槍決這個變成是現在很多政客拿出來講說我國沒有廢除死刑啊所以有一個人被槍決了我想請問一下這個被判處死刑槍決這件事情跟憲判8有沒有任何關聯性"},{"start":186.377,"end":210.854,"text":"好 沒有嘛 因為他這個是很早年就被判死刑 這跟去年的憲判八這個是沒有關聯性嘛那第二個就是 他其實是對於確定判決的死刑加以執行嘛他並不是說 這個東西就是 欸 他說有執行一個死刑啊所以這個法官說的以自決 這個並不會影響到死刑的判決啊其實我跟你講 這個也是政客在誤導人民嘛那個 複蜜是不是這樣"},{"start":212.125,"end":221.014,"text":"死刑確定判決的執行跟法官能不能夠一致決判死刑這應該是兩回事吧或是部長我講的有沒有錯"},{"start":223.456,"end":249.331,"text":"現在那個像黃定愷他那個執行的話那是有一致決那現在一致決的話目前都還是有陸續對所以沒有關聯性謝謝部長謝謝複密所以沒有任何關聯性請政客不要再拿這個東西來說一致決這兩個完全無關一個是執行判決確定判決的執行一個是判決兩個是完全不一樣的東西我有時候覺得很辛苦就是為什麼"},{"start":251.313,"end":274.268,"text":"這些政客不是不懂 但是他們很喜歡誤導人民拿一些錯誤的觀念來誤導人民那這一次其實我覺得我自己對中選會他去沒收的這個公投當然我們心裡是不滿啦但是現在的中選會他到底是不是當初法律設計要他當作是一個獨立機關他還獨不獨立 以及主委的個性我想社會自有公斷啦"},{"start":276.496,"end":287.929,"text":"他沒收了人民的罷免權也沒收了人民的公投權這是我看到現在的中選會而且他的沒收是莫名其妙完全違法他也照幹我們現在"},{"start":289.656,"end":318.148,"text":"人民要求政府依法行政已經變成是一個很奢侈的請求了現在我看到這些行政機關一個一個變成這樣好那這一次呢中選會他為了要沒收立法院所提出來這個公投法案他甚至在他的新聞稿還寫了什麼他認為大法官的憲判制裡面的一字訣他這個是對於法院組織法的修正一個立法原則的創制行為"},{"start":319.813,"end":346.678,"text":"所以現在連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權啊連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權啊 複密你們現在大法官的作為已經取代了立法權的功能了耶那這樣子五權分立不是含假的嗎那現在大法官明明是在解釋違憲啊怎麼自己帶頭違憲這是我要跟複密報告那再來我請教複密還有部長"},{"start":348.186,"end":374.47,"text":"因為我們今天有兩個重要的議題一個是什麼叫最嚴重犯罪的情節那我們先談最嚴重犯罪情節因為目前我們要判死刑我們在判決階段有兩大關卡三大啦 剛剛我們講的是一字決就算了再來什麼叫做最嚴重犯罪到目前還是非常的空洞請問複密對於法官已經有一個標準出來了嗎什麼叫最嚴重犯罪"},{"start":381.405,"end":393.698,"text":"這個在憲判八裡頭其實它有非常多具體的例事對 它是例事而已嘛它不是一個原則告訴你要怎麼做它只是什麼例子什麼例子嘛那超過那個例子呢"},{"start":395.017,"end":423.573,"text":"那變成說我大法官只能想到五個例子的話那就只有這五個例子嗎他不是一個原則那法官要怎麼判斷什麼叫最嚴重這是如此的空洞還涉及人命那再來另外一個有無教化可能性這也完全空洞啊所以你光是這兩個東西什麼叫做最嚴重什麼叫做有無教化可能性請問一下部長以及複密這兩個東西你要法官們要檢察官們怎麼去判斷"},{"start":429.049,"end":445.24,"text":"沒關係沒辦法回答就一樣我也說真的我也不知道該怎麼回答這兩個東西有沒有辦法提出一個標準那這個也是現在這麼多的人民團體一直來跟我們澄清的主因那我我之前在幾次公開的"},{"start":445.92,"end":466.492,"text":"我以前講過一個就是過去我自己擔任檢察官我們擔任司法官的時候我們只聚焦在構成要件所以我只重視去了解這個人怎麼死的我卻忘記了去思考他們當年是怎麼活的他們在被打死之前他是怎麼樣要求別人饒他一條命"},{"start":467.772,"end":491.087,"text":"這個法官檢察官都不在乎這些事情但是對這些家屬而言他們最重視的是這個這些人在當年活著的時候他是怎麼樣孝順自己的父母我們講幾個啦像台南的那兩位被殺死的警官那個土警官跟草警官他們在被殺死之前他們想的是怎麼樣把這些可疑的人或脫逃的人犯把他逮捕歸案他為的是社會安全"},{"start":492.308,"end":503.062,"text":"土城的劉警官他在被毒品人口撞死之前他想的是怎麼樣維護那個地方的晚上的"},{"start":504.045,"end":525.882,"text":"治安 安全那你再說那個 像那個 士多講的那個陳老師他被殺之前他是想說去菜市場買個菜回家煮飯給家裡面的人吃所以他們 我們今天當司法官當久了我們覺得我只在乎他是被殺了幾刀 被開了幾槍我只在乎他怎麼死我們完全忘記他當初怎麼活下來的"},{"start":527.003,"end":549.626,"text":"他當時活著的時候怎麼樣孝順自己的家人父母然後怎麼樣對家庭的重要性所以有人被死了以後有那個父母跟我講啊他說那一槍不是打死一個人啊他那一槍打死三個因為這個人是他的獨子他說那一槍打下去之後他跟他先生兩個七十幾歲了人生也無望了所以我常常覺得啦我們都太著重於構成要件的"},{"start":550.527,"end":563.91,"text":"限縮在那一塊裡面我們忘了忘記去思考這個行為對於社會以及對於家族他造成的危害有多大所以然後我們今天再加上這幾個完全沒有標準的教化可能性以及"},{"start":565.086,"end":584.904,"text":"什麼叫最嚴重之罪這已經讓死刑已經變成是不知道法官不知道怎麼判決然後再加上這個憲判扒下去我覺得所以我們一直說啦這個叫實質廢死雖然民進黨一直說沒有什麼我們沒廢死也沒有實質廢死這個名詞但是我想走過司法審判實務的人都會很清楚這個要判死刑我覺得"},{"start":586.185,"end":609.378,"text":"難如登天啦 這也是回應現在很多民團的一些想法那我們再講啦 就是說 像譬如說這次有一個張介忠 他殺害三個婦人 還把他分屍了或是馬大女學生的姦殺案件就算你認為是最嚴重的犯罪 可是他還是被認為是不是還有教化可能性然後就不停地發回根審 發回根審"},{"start":610.899,"end":626.798,"text":"所以我覺得目前我看到的還是用過於空洞的東西來去要求法官下判決這個規範 這個門檻其實根本就跨越不了那也請大家想一想"},{"start":627.819,"end":640.812,"text":"就是你們要知道這些被告你們一直保護他可是其實他當時在現場是多麼堅決一定要要被害人死亡他那個一定要他死還有很多像那個新北戈侯案"},{"start":642.349,"end":669.235,"text":"同學都已經制止叫那個行為人不要再殺了他還是繼續砍殺那個小朋友然後他說我今天就是要給他死這個是我們知道的事實我想說大家不要忘記了這一塊我想要再提一個東西就是說我們這段時間虐童的案件其實一直在上升而且上升的很多我想我們今天既然是討論這個"},{"start":671.011,"end":699.587,"text":"類同致死的這個法案我想有三個再麻煩你們能夠思考就是說其實我們這個社會還是要多跟民眾對話司法人要多跟民眾對話不要在那個框架裡面但我們一直在框架裡面認為後面是過失致死啊這個不是殺人罪啊所以這個不該有死刑那我們是不是過於被限制在那個框架中那還有就是刑法強盜致死其實還是有死刑的規範這很多委員都有講嘛"},{"start":700.78,"end":721.494,"text":"那所以 俄國法制也有這個東西 不是沒有啊所以可不可以就是說 隨便拿一個這個道理就是說我拒絕跟你們溝通像法務部那時候對於人民的這個要求就是說我們就免談那這個也是不對的邏輯這個委員呈現我們沒有免談 我們這個就是那個是勾選是勾錯了"},{"start":723.155,"end":742.029,"text":"那你內文我們是有研修我們要納入研修那個內文只是大廈是沒有去看內文不管怎麼樣勾對勾錯但是人民的心裡的而且這次我們也把立法方向上是在委會我也已經報告了嘛謝謝部長後面有改變謝謝部長但至少在第一時間讓人民的感覺是你不願意溝通好那我想喔"},{"start":743.823,"end":761.794,"text":"虐童的統計這個東西 其實我在去年4月17號我在本委員會 我已經要求了法務部要趕快去統計虐童的件數然後受理件數 案件來源 還有被害的年齡分布等等因為這些東西跟我們修法有很大關聯性但是換了部長之後"},{"start":762.995,"end":782.558,"text":"我上一次問 結果上一次次長跟我說 沒有這個統計數字所以 你們不能這樣啦 你們不能說 人民或我們要求你們提法案然後你們跟我說 虐童致死 要判刑 這不符合比例原則結果跟你要犯罪的數據的時候呢 你又跟我說 兩手一攤 你說我沒數據"},{"start":783.319,"end":785.501,"text":"行政機關是這樣在做的嗎我們回去後我們趕緊統計就是刑罰286的案件這個從109人到113人有328件"},{"start":794.403,"end":816.855,"text":"那個從那個案件的一個數字好沒關係我跟你講齁你數字好你數字要給我但是我上上週在這邊開會的時候我當時跟次長要他說沒有統計警政署也沒有統計但是我在去年四月我就有要求要做這些統計因為我們要趕快修法嘛所以我需要這些數據啦齁好那我跟你講我在最後在跟那個衛福部"},{"start":817.495,"end":834.023,"text":"一分鐘跟衛福部提一下目前我國兒童的政策還有資源非常非常的混亂所以0到2歲的托育這個是社家屬對不對2到6歲是教育部然後0到2歲的兒童安置是社家屬就2到6歲是保護師"},{"start":836.664,"end":855.523,"text":"然後0到2歲他是內政部有一個少婦會然後2到6歲是警政署有婦幼隊就是說他管理是非常的混亂啦但是你們去看一下上次那個凱凱案發生之後就他竟然是教育部管轄的文教單位他在主管"},{"start":856.224,"end":879.212,"text":"所以變成說大家各做各的然後橫向聯繫也斷裂是不是說我們應該去思考你像日本在2023年他有成立那個兒童家庭廳嘛韓國也有類似的那個兒童權力保護院他也有類似的規範那所以說我們是不是要趕快處理否則目前台灣的社家屬他的兒少福利組人數只有17人"},{"start":880.973,"end":887.227,"text":"他要負責台灣海量的案件所以這個東西我想請教一下我們這邊有幾個"},{"start":889.586,"end":917.95,"text":"問題啦就是我希望你們回覆給我而且這個也都是民團希望我們一定要問清楚的也請各位一定要給我們時程就是設立兒童部或兒少保護部的期程還有期限那能不能夠在今年的12月24號如期的揭牌再來出收養的媒合機構還有管理辦法這個草案目前的進度還有能不能夠在今年6月完成法治的這個程序我希望趕快回覆給我們這個那我們會公開"},{"start":918.45,"end":936.857,"text":"你們也可以公開因為非常多的民團現在一直來找我們承認這件事情因為他們發現他們找某些政黨無效了沒有用了因為他們的黨綱把他們綁住很多委員很有心要幫但是現階段不知道該怎麼幫所以我們必須我們站出來要為這些民團講講話這些被害人家屬"},{"start":940.518,"end":955.133,"text":"有太多被害人家有在我辦公室哭的完全克制不了自己他們想到家人被殺想到小孩子被殺他完全克制不了自己然後一直在那邊痛哭然後說我們司法把他們當作司法的孤兒這部分太麻煩了"},{"start":960.161,"end":962.582,"text":"這個什麼時候可以給我們我簡單兩個回應第一個就是有關於說出養媒合的這個辦法我們現在目前已經在外面我們現在目前已經送到"},{"start":974.026,"end":995.31,"text":"相關來announce另外第二個委員跟各界都非常關心我們兒少專責機構那跟委員報告我們現在目前也已經提到一個已經也研擬相關的辦法那現在就是說到底要成立私屬或者您剛剛說不這個我想現在到組織的部分這個部分我們都會趕快來研議那我們相關的進度也會趕快跟委員來報告那這個問題可不可以兩個禮拜先回給我這幾個問題的答覆那有一些沒辦法解決我們可以再趕快來討論"},{"start":1002.993,"end":1003.556,"text":"好 那謝謝市長 謝謝部長 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時31分）我們請副秘書長、部長還有衛福部次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["吳委員宗憲：我先請教部長以及副秘。延續剛剛的問題，很簡單的問題，因為之前有某一位民進黨的委員說，我們說這個世界上沒有一個國家法律體例是要求所有審級，包括事實審、法律審一致決，沒有這樣的體例，這位立委在國會的殿堂欺騙全國人民！拿著他法律專業的外衣來欺騙全國人民說什麼美國陪審團就有這樣子的作法，但是我現在要請問的問題是，有沒有哪一個國家的法律體例是要求事實審以及法律審所有法官對於死刑判決要一致決？副秘，你們不要再跟我聚焦什麼陪審團怎麼樣，不用再講那個啦！我們就講個最簡單的，事實審、法律審的法官要一致決，哪一個國家的體例是要這樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：據了解，歐洲的部分似乎沒有這樣子要求一致決，但是美國有一些……"],["吳委員宗憲：那美國的聯邦最高法院呢？我現在講的是事實審加法律審喔！你不要再給我聚焦在哪一個，因為我覺得有一些人現在都會偷換概念。我跟你講，之前張大法官也講得很清楚，他是留學美國，他講得非常清楚，美國的法律審並沒有這樣的要求，所以剛剛黃國昌委員才會在這邊跟你們說，之前他有來詢問過，這個世界上有沒有哪一個體例是要求所有的事實審、法律審都要一致決，我們這邊得到的是沒有，當時你們回復也是沒有，張大法官說的也是沒有，所以我這邊可能要先跟你們說明一下。","我們一直覺得政治人物實在不應該隨便的誤導，我們也很希望找到是不是有某一個很小的國家或怎麼樣，他們有自己特殊的體例，但是目前為止是沒有，現在比較大的或法律較先進的國家，我們從制度上面來看並沒有要求所有的審級全部都要法官一致決，我想這個部分我們先說明一下。","再來我請教一下司法院，黃麟凱被判死刑定讞再進行槍決，這個現在很多政客拿出來講我國沒有廢除死刑，所以有一個人被槍決了，我想請問一下，這個被判處死刑槍決這件事情跟憲判字第8號有沒有任何關聯性？沒有嘛！因為他是很早年就被判死刑，這跟去年的憲判字第8號沒有關聯性。","第二個，他其實是對於確定判決的死刑加以執行，他並不是說這個東西就是……他說有執行一個死刑，所以法官一致決並不會影響到死刑的判決，我想這個也是政客在誤導人民，副秘，是不是這樣？死刑確定判決的執行跟法官能不能夠一致決判死刑，這應該是兩回事吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我講的有沒有錯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：像黃麟凱執行死刑的部分是有一致決，現在以一致決的話，目前實務上陸續都還是有發生……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以沒有關聯性，謝謝部長、謝謝副秘，所以沒有任何關聯性，請政客不要再拿這個東西來說一致決，這兩個完全無關，一個是死刑確定判決的執行，一個是判決，兩個是完全不一樣的東西，我有時候覺得很辛苦！因為這些政客不是不懂，但他們很喜歡誤導人民，拿一些錯誤的觀念來誤導人民。","這一次我覺得我自己對中選會去沒收了這個公投，當然我們心裡是不滿啦！但是現在的中選會，當初法律設計到底是不是要把它當作是一個獨立機關，它還獨不獨立以及主委的個性，我想社會自有公斷，它沒收了人民的罷免權，也沒收了人民的公投權，這是我看到現在的中選會，而且它的沒收是莫名其妙，完全違法，它也照幹！現在人民要求政府依法行政已經變成是一個很奢侈的請求了，我現在看到這些行政機關一個一個變成這樣。","這一次中選會為了要沒收立法院所提出來的公投法案，甚至在它的新聞稿還寫了什麼？它認為大法官憲判字裡面的一致決，它說這是對於法院組織法的修正，一個具立法原則的創制行為，所以現在連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權！連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權！副秘，你們現在大法官的作為已經取代了立法權的功能了，那這樣子五權分立不是喊假的嗎？大法官明明是在解釋違憲，怎麼自己帶頭違憲？這是我要跟副秘報告的。","再來我請教副秘還有部長，因為我們今天有兩個重要的議題，一個是什麼叫最嚴重犯罪的情節，我們先談最嚴重犯罪情節。因為目前我們要判死刑，在判決階段有兩大關卡，三大啦！剛剛我們講的一致決就算了，再來，什麼叫做最嚴重犯罪，到目前還是非常的空洞。請問副秘，對於什麼叫最嚴重犯罪，法官已經有一個標準出來了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這個在憲判字第8號裡頭，其實有非常多具體的例示。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，它是例示而已嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，有例示。"],["吳委員宗憲：它不是一個原則，告訴你要怎麼做，它只是什麼例子、什麼例子，那超過那個例子呢？變成大法官只能想到5個例子的話，那就只有這5個例子嗎？它不是一個原則，那法官要怎麼判斷什麼叫最嚴重？這是如此的空洞，還涉及人命。","再來，另外一個是有無教化可能性，這也完全空洞啊！所以你光是這兩個東西，什麼叫做最嚴重，什麼叫做有無教化可能性，請問一下部長以及副秘，這兩個東西，你要法官們、檢察官們怎麼去判斷？","沒關係，沒辦法回答，就一樣，說真的，我也不知道該怎麼回答這兩個東西，有沒有辦法提出一個標準，這個也是現在這麼多人民團體一直來跟我們陳情的主因，我之前在幾次公開的地方曾經講過，過去我自己擔任檢察官、我們擔任司法官的時候，我們只聚焦在構成要件，所以我只重視去了解這個人怎麼死的，我卻忘記去思考他們當年是怎麼活的，他們在被打死之前，他是怎麼樣央求別人饒他一條命，法官、檢察官都不在乎這些事情，但是對這些家屬而言，他們最重視的是這個！這些人當年活著的時候，他是怎麼樣孝順自己的父母，我們講幾個啦！像臺南那兩位被殺死的警官，凃警官跟曹警官他們在被殺死之前，他們想的是怎麼樣把這些可疑的人或脫逃的人犯逮捕歸案，他為的是社會安全，而土城的劉警官，他在被吸食毒品的人撞死之前，他想的是怎麼樣維護那個地方晚上的治安與安全。再說得師鐸獎的陳老師在被殺之前，想的是去菜市場買菜，回家煮飯給家人吃。今天我們當司法官當久了，我覺得我們只在乎被害人被殺了幾刀、被開了幾槍，只在乎他怎麼死的，卻完全忘記當初他是怎麼活下來的，忘記當他活著的時候，是怎麼樣孝順自己的父母以及他對家庭的重要性。所以有人被害死後，被害者父母跟我講，那一槍不是打死一個人，那一槍是打死三個，因為被害的是他的獨子！他說那一槍打下去之後，他跟先生兩個都七十幾歲了，覺得人生也無望了！我常常覺得我們都太著重於構成要件，並限縮在那一塊裡面，忘記去思考這個行為對社會、對家屬所造成的危害有多大！然後再加上這幾個完全沒有標準的教化可能性，以及什麼叫最嚴重之罪？這樣的死刑讓法官不知道怎麼判決，再加上憲判字第8號，所以我們才會一直說這是實質廢死！雖然民進黨一直說沒廢死，也沒有實質廢死這個名詞，但凡走過司法審判實務的人都很清楚，想據此來判死刑難如登天，這也是回應現在很多民團的想法。","再者，像張介宗殺害三個婦人，還分屍了，或是馬國女大生被姦殺案件，就算認為這是最嚴重的犯罪，卻還是被認為是不是有教化可能性？於是就不停的發回更審。因此，目前我所看到的，還是用過於空洞的東西要求法官下判決，所以這個規範、這個門檻根本就跨越不了！也請大家想一想，你們一直保護這些被告，但其實當時在殺人現場，他是多麼堅決一定要被害人死亡，是一定要他死！像新北國中校園割喉案，同學都已經制止，叫行為人不要再殺了，他還是繼續砍殺被害小朋友，甚至說我今天就是要他死！這是我們知道的一些事實，也希望大家不要忘記這一塊。","另外，我要再提一點，也就是這段時間虐童案件一直在上升，而且上升了很多。既然我們今天討論的是虐童致死法案，那麼有三件事麻煩你們思考。","首先，其實在這個社會，司法人還是要多跟民眾對話，不要陷於框架裡面。因為一直在框架裡，所以會認為那是過失致死，不是殺人罪，所以不該有死刑，如此是不是過於被框架所限制？","其次，刑法強盜致死還是有死刑規範，這點很多委員都有講到。所以我國法制是有這個東西，不是沒有，因此，不能隨便拿一點道理就說拒絕跟你們溝通？像法務部對人民的要求竟然說免談？這是不對的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：向委員澄清，我們沒有說免談，那是勾選勾錯了，我們有研修，我們要納入研修，只是大家沒有看內文……"],["吳委員宗憲：不管勾對、勾錯，在人民心裡……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且我們上次在委員會也報告了立法方向……"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長你們後面有改變，不過在第一時間人民的感覺是你們不願意溝通！","有關虐童統計，其實去年4月17日，我就已經在本委員會要求法務部趕快統計虐童件數、受理件數、案件來源及被害人年齡分布等等，因為這些跟修法有很大的關聯性。換了部長之後，我上一次有問，結果次長跟我說沒有這個統計數字！你們不能這樣！人民或我們要求你們提法案，你們卻跟我說虐童致死要判死刑不符合比例原則！我跟你要犯罪數據，你又兩手一攤說沒數據！行政機關是這樣在做的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，回去後我們已經統計了觸犯刑法第二百八十六條的案件，從109年到113年共328件，這是案件數字。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係。我跟你講……"],["鄭部長銘謙：至於終結為519人……"],["吳委員宗憲：數字給我。我上上週在這邊開會時，次長說沒有統計，警政署也沒有統計，其實我在去年4月就要求你們做這些統計，因為我們要趕快修法，所以我需要這些數據。","最後我利用一分鐘時間跟衛福部提一下。目前我國兒童政策及資源非常、非常混亂！零到兩歲的托育是社家署業務，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩到六歲是教育部，至於零到二歲的兒童安置又是社家署，而兩到六歲則是保護司。不僅如此，內政部少輔會也管零到二歲兒童，但二到六歲又歸警政署婦幼隊，管理非常混亂！你們去看一下剴剴案，竟然是教育部管轄的文教單位所主管，大家各做各的，橫向聯繫也斷裂，這些問題我們是不是應該思考一下？日本在2023年成立兒童家庭廳，韓國也有類似的兒童權利保護院，有類似的規範，所以我們是不是應該趕快處理？因為目前社家署的兒少福利組人數只有十七人，卻要負責臺灣海量的案件！","我這邊有幾個問題，希望你們給我回復，這也是民團希望我們一定要問清楚的，也請各位一定要給我們時程。首先是設立兒童部或兒少保護部的期程還有期限，能否於今年12月24日如期揭牌？再來，出收養媒合機構及管理辦法草案進度為何？能否於今年6月完成法制程序？我希望你們趕快回復，這件事我們會公開，你們也可以公開，因為有非常多民團一直來找我們陳情，他們發現找某些政黨無效了，沒用了，因為黨綱把他們綁住。雖然有很多委員有心要幫，但現階段不知道該怎麼幫！所以我們必須站出來為這些民團講講話，有太多被害人家屬在我辦公室哭到完全克制不了自己！他們想到家人被殺，想到小孩子被殺，完全克制不了自己，只能一直痛哭說他們是司法孤兒！這部分再麻煩了，什麼時候可以給我們？"],["呂次長建德：我簡單回應兩點：第一，關於收出養媒合辦法，我們現在已經對外預告，進行相關程序；第二，委員跟各界都非常關心兒少專責機構一事，跟委員報告，我們現在已經在研擬相關辦法，至於到底要成立司、署，或如同委員所說的部，由於牽涉到組織，我們會趕快研議，相關進度也會儘快跟委員報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：這幾個問題可否於兩個禮拜內先答復我？至於一些沒辦法解決的，我們可以趕快再來討論。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝次長、謝謝部長、謝謝副秘。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：我們下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":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包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},{"id":"162188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982873c599e853ef091269516374867620cef0976ba27860ef1281c57b7438d7776a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:30:20 - 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洪部長請部長部長早日本那個社會學者"},{"start":27.691,"end":56.765,"text":"藤田校典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那臺灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度事實上比我們更早所以想問也就是說今天下流老人的問題在於經濟安全"},{"start":57.679,"end":81.258,"text":"所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份是 特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊 零工啊"},{"start":81.838,"end":89.991,"text":"在老退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人"},{"start":90.987,"end":112.081,"text":"我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們"},{"start":113.542,"end":128.694,"text":"藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持"},{"start":132.028,"end":148.711,"text":"那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括"},{"start":149.252,"end":169.648,"text":"我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元"},{"start":171.79,"end":193.365,"text":"一個月這樣看起來可以領兩萬三千四百四十元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活基本需求他大概要撫養其他的譬如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保"},{"start":194.437,"end":213.698,"text":"劳退钱是不够用的那是不是应该要提醒劳工所以部长您觉得因为我们现在看到的事实上是我觉得劳动部对这个问题好像一直是避重就轻没有做好社会沟通所以部长是不是可以去负起这样的传递真实讯息的责任"},{"start":215.915,"end":241.781,"text":"第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到"},{"start":242.661,"end":261.937,"text":"這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子"},{"start":262.637,"end":284.49,"text":"所以在退休收入不足的狀況下勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們老公透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了是當然就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做"},{"start":286.311,"end":302.027,"text":"那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的"},{"start":302.507,"end":328.02,"text":"投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是远的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领"},{"start":329.876,"end":340.667,"text":"4616元的勞退基金來說的話自提6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講"},{"start":345.132,"end":358.991,"text":"因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資私利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以呢"},{"start":360.172,"end":371.249,"text":"這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎"},{"start":376.127,"end":404.157,"text":"我想這就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的"},{"start":405.057,"end":418.716,"text":"年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎"},{"start":421.557,"end":448.144,"text":"報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講"},{"start":450.986,"end":470.711,"text":"來講的話投報的那個效高那可是勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾說交代清楚再表達你們的"},{"start":471.638,"end":485.754,"text":"反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險"},{"start":487.813,"end":504.956,"text":"那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高"},{"start":516.738,"end":521.582,"text":"勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何"},{"start":533.097,"end":560.102,"text":"確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通"},{"start":561.202,"end":585.003,"text":"其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比方像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些"},{"start":585.943,"end":612.201,"text":"這裡面會有一些挑戰但我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製程的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用"},{"start":616.103,"end":633.412,"text":"所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时只缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做"},{"start":633.885,"end":649.225,"text":"因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他做整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他"},{"start":650.025,"end":679.425,"text":"他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二個剛剛在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已"},{"start":680.286,"end":699.7,"text":"我們會來把植物栽設計在各個產業或各種職類上面再推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物栽設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助"},{"start":699.98,"end":721.514,"text":"那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲借齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何"},{"start":722.493,"end":740.703,"text":"跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題吼那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告好最後就期待吼我剛剛今天質詢的這四點吼麻煩"},{"start":741.547,"end":753.42,"text":"我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時30分）有請勞動部洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。日本社會學者藤田孝典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念，指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者，要是下流老人人數比例過高的話，社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出。臺灣於今年進入超高齡社會，當然日本的老化程度事實上比我們更早，現今下流老人的問題在於經濟安全，想問部長，預防老人貧窮問題的根本是在勞動部主管的勞退、勞保、高齡就業業務，這個概念你同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我同意，我們當然要避免剛剛委員說的狀況，我想我們也是各部會裡面很重要的一份子。"],["林委員月琴：特別是低薪、非典就業者，就像派遣工、零工，在勞退制度當中的制度性是弱勢的，勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流老人？"],["洪部長申翰：我想除了委員剛才講到的勞退或者是老年年金相關的制度以外，其實我們也持續落實在中高齡就業的專法上面，也因為這個專法，目前看起來整體的老年勞參率是有提高的，也包括我們藉由這個法也發布了中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫，這都是希望促進更多的老年人能夠再一次的參與就業，去確保他們在經濟生活的維持。"],["林委員月琴：從法院審理民事案件的實務當中，我們以參考資料來看的話，臺灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間，可是如果撫養一個人，則費用就會增加一倍。高齡者退休後的收入包括勞工退休金、過去工資的存款、勞保年金及資產的投資等四大項，到2023年為止，勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到1萬8,824元，加上勞退新制平均每月大概可以領到4,616元，這樣看起來一個月可以領2萬3,440元。可是高齡者如果退休後沒有其他收入的話，表示這兩筆社會保險的錢最多只能打平其生活基本需求，若他要撫養其他的親屬，比如妻子或其他，大概就不太可能了。","想問一下，退休後光靠勞保、勞退，錢是不夠用的，是不是應該要提醒勞工？部長，因為事實上我們現在看到……我覺得勞動部對這個問題好像一直是避重就輕，沒有做好社會溝通，所以部長是不是可以負起傳遞真實訊息的責任？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，當然我們會一直鼓勵勞工在勞退上面的自提，因為如果在工作過程裡面就逐步有一定自提比例的話，對於退休以後能夠領到的退休金是有蠻顯著的幫助，這部分我們會盡力來做。另外當然就是剛才說到的，確實我們也看到，也因為社會的高齡化，所以有蠻多的高齡者其實是還有工作能力的，這也是為什麼我剛才講到中高齡及高齡者的就業專法裡面去協助大家還有他們可以發揮所長的地方，一方面他們也可以有再多一點的老年生活收入。"],["林委員月琴：在退休收入不足的狀況下，我認為勞動部是有義務去提醒他們的，勞工透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃，以確保他們的生活，甚至要不要自提6%，也是一種方式，所以我覺得這件事應該要儘快來進行。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["林委員月琴：就麻煩勞動部。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這個部分我們會來做。"],["林委員月琴：社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資，確保基本生活，可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求，在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談，我覺得相當危險。目前勞退基金的投保率在2.96%到4.04%，比定存高一點，為穩健保本的投資策略，反過來說，自提自選感受上好像勞工會賺大錢，可是其實搞不好賺不多，反而要承擔投資失敗的風險。從2023年勞工平均每月可以領4,616元的勞退基金來說的話，自提6%可以加倍領取到9,232元，可是自提自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話，的確可以領到1萬3,848元。對勞工來講，由於投入的資本小，順利的話事實上每個月也僅能增加4,616元的收入，可是如果投資失利的話，這個自提的6%可能就全部都賠光了，所以這才是贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點。勞動部在整個討論過程當中，我認為還是在避重就輕，沒有好好說給勞工聽。部長，你會積極向社會說明嗎？否則就會有一個誤解，認為他就是會賺大錢。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，社會上一直有人在提自選的這個問題，但其實我們目前的政策是沒有開放自選的。當然，第一個最大的考量其實就是關於風險承受的問題，所以我想我們還是會讓基金的操作儘量穩健成長，來保障勞工年金的收益，或者是經濟上的收益。"],["林委員月琴：可是他們現在也會有一個這樣的誤解，所以我說如果政府也保證，自選的人最終也是能有一個合理的給付，你覺得這樣子有道理嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，因為自選的話，其實就有相當的風險，當勞工選擇高風險的，政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益，這是一個問題，這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的處理。"],["林委員月琴：是，所以我說連帶也要說清楚的是，對於操作基金的投資公司，拿全體勞工自提的錢去做，操作金額大、操作費跟利息高，而且不用承擔風險的話，對財團來講，投報率高，與勞工自選單薄的利潤相比差異極大，可是風險要由勞工承擔，利益的話卻是累積在財團，這一點勞動部應該要跟我們的社會大眾交代清楚，再表達你們反對的理由，這樣可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想在相關政策的選擇上，其實都是風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題，我們當然也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通，這裡面應該怎麼認知這些相關的風險。"],["林委員月琴：務實的來看，普遍能夠增加高齡者收入，彌補年金、退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率，可是現實是45歲到49歲的人口，退休前勞動參與率就已經到85.56%了，並且逐年下降，到65歲勞動參與率只剩9.97%。跟國際相比，65歲以上的勞動參與率差人家更多。所以勞動部在提高勞參率這件事情上，應採取45歲到54歲「留在職場」，55歲到64歲「延緩退出職場」，65歲以上「彈性再就業」的分齡策略。勞動部目前規劃的狀況如何？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實，目前臺灣在高齡者勞參率的部分，還是比一些國家來得低，這個事情我們也很清楚，所以我們現在是很積極地，也透過剛才說的中高齡就業專法來推動，這幾年下來是有看到成果的，我們還會再持續地針對這個部分努力。","另外一方面，我們也一直在跟企業溝通，包括怎麼樣去克服企業聘僱高齡者可能會遇到的一些問題，比方說如果企業擔心怎麼樣設計強度，高齡者在身體上才有辦法支撐，我們現在其實也透過像職務再設計等等方法，來消除企業聘僱中高齡或高齡者的時候可能會有的一些挑戰。我想政府是非常非常願意大力地來協助，我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識，接下來恐怕在就業市場上面，高齡者、中高齡者的重要性會大幅地提升，我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作。"],["林委員月琴：確實，我們現在已經進入到超高齡社會，不過部長剛剛提到職務再設計的這個概念，真的也很努力，可是一直侷限在製程的變更、輔具及輔助設備上的應用，所以儘管中高齡及高齡者就業促進法已經明定將部分工時作為促進的手段，可是這種職務再設計沒有去考慮到部分工時職缺開發跟媒合的策略。所以想問一下部長，對此，未來你要怎麼做？因為不是只有輔具而已，或是說他去把那個流程……或是用機器來減少，可是問題是他做整天搞不好也沒有辦法。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實剛才委員有講到幾個重要的概念，第一個是部分工時，因為確實滿多高齡者就是表達他比較沒有辦法做全職的工作，他可能就做部分工時的工作，其實現在也越來越多的企業意識到這件事情，所以我們也跟很多企業在討論，甚至在輔導企業，怎麼把相關的工作做一個有效的拆解，或者是在這個職務上面可以做一定程度的拆解，但是拆解的同時還是要符合勞動法規，這部分我們會來輔導。","第二個，剛才講到職務再設計，其實我想也不只是單純請他們用輔具而已，我們會把職務再設計在各個產業或各種職類上面，再推動得更細膩，因為不同的產業或者是不同的職務，所需要的職務再設計可能是不太一樣的，我們在這部分的分眾會做得更細膩，能夠對企業或者是高齡者的工作有更多的幫助。"],["林委員月琴：再麻煩勞動部，因為我們現在已經進入到超高齡社會，人力需求又這麼高。本席日前提出由勞動部制定政策推動退休前的1到2年，勞工提前跟原雇主或新雇主議定65歲屆齡退休後的新勞動契約，這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何？"],["洪部長申翰：因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題，我們當然也在檢討，但現有的一些跟雇主協商的機制，我們也希望能夠再更優化，所以再給我們一點時間，我們再來跟委員做一個報告。"],["林委員月琴：好，最後，我今天質詢的這四點，麻煩勞動部能夠面對超高齡社會，避免下流老人的事件發生，針對勞工退休金、勞保年金、就業、理財，要四管齊下，正視這個問題。以上。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162187","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162187","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b98287f1aa436386b55ac69516374867620cef0976ba27860ef12116f54e65665532f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:16:11 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麻煩部長"},{"start":14.74,"end":43.735,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白您的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障"},{"start":44.395,"end":54.402,"text":"但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆"},{"start":63.248,"end":83.583,"text":"上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說"},{"start":86.345,"end":103.979,"text":"撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是駝鳥心態就是一年拖過一年我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來持續燒燒人民納稅錢其實部長我並沒有反對撥補但是政府不應該把這個撥補當作唯一的"},{"start":110.965,"end":114.747,"text":"解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長時發跡他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕"},{"start":129.295,"end":156.564,"text":"他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎"},{"start":159.002,"end":172.922,"text":"我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行"},{"start":175.039,"end":197.177,"text":"各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年11月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費"},{"start":202.802,"end":221.37,"text":"如果財富基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的"},{"start":222.21,"end":239.831,"text":"他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎"},{"start":240.578,"end":265.053,"text":"我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢?我的重點還是入法啊?入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎?我也簽你也簽啊就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重啊"},{"start":265.543,"end":285.52,"text":"那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅息剩餘的財源其實我們就視這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補"},{"start":289.964,"end":312.55,"text":"所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法"},{"start":313.61,"end":317.835,"text":"入法是白紙黑紙他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了"},{"start":328.607,"end":351.299,"text":"市長您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在任會的資訊其實我想行政院跟院長其實也都表達是持開放的態度覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個"},{"start":353.38,"end":378.745,"text":"我們就等著主決議的修正的內容看怎麼開始動手部長今天我在報告中沒有看到台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然你說勞保有70幾年歷史我們台灣的照護產業跟基層製造業非常高度仰賴移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞"},{"start":379.885,"end":405.567,"text":"那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那台灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限"},{"start":407.829,"end":428.527,"text":"雖然看護工可以再滿足這個評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限 還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工 使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的"},{"start":434.912,"end":450.301,"text":"沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容"},{"start":454.619,"end":459.443,"text":"就是你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主"},{"start":474.033,"end":496.012,"text":"那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂"},{"start":496.693,"end":524.48,"text":"不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是"},{"start":526.3,"end":548.859,"text":"第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介"},{"start":549.94,"end":569.336,"text":"那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的"},{"start":574.294,"end":593.872,"text":"你今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年"},{"start":594.392,"end":609.754,"text":"所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是"},{"start":610.535,"end":627.244,"text":"我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介"},{"start":628.705,"end":651.054,"text":"讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實委員在講的我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合"},{"start":652.154,"end":670.16,"text":"產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的"},{"start":670.72,"end":685.686,"text":"部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用"},{"start":686.346,"end":711.247,"text":"那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘僱過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊委員並不是新的來源國不做我跟委員說我還是要強調"},{"start":712.908,"end":732.331,"text":"就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升"},{"start":732.831,"end":747.545,"text":"我另外再提一點許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利"},{"start":748.866,"end":775.725,"text":"那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一局為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎"},{"start":776.83,"end":792.729,"text":"我當然同 我現在還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士亮表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的前頭我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套"},{"start":793.93,"end":808.823,"text":"現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況"},{"start":809.363,"end":826.131,"text":"那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來"},{"start":829.132,"end":837.858,"text":"過去我們有一些惡名這也是不爭之事實希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，上次我們在處理解凍案的時候，我要求勞動部修改勞保條例，把最終給付責任入法，雖然當時附帶決議是修正後通過了，但我並不是很滿意，因為當時部長您一直把責任先推給主計總處，但我也明白您的難處，不過我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清。勞保本來就是勞工老年之後的經濟保障，但是現在卻成為不定時炸彈，為什麼我這樣說呢？根據勞動部最新的精算報告，勞保基金財務用罄的時間是2028年後到2031年之間，潛藏負債仍然從10.29兆上升到13.23兆，目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持，但是隨著人口的老化跟萎縮，我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大。部長，你看第一會期勞動部回答楊曜委員的書面報告，當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示，撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助，未來將視財務狀況持續撥補。我覺得這些話就是鴕鳥心態，一年拖過一年，反正就是不斷繼續撥補，所以一直沒有去處理與面對的政策，只是持續在燒人民的納稅錢。其實我並沒有反對撥補，但是政府不應該把撥補當作唯一的解決方法，請部長參考前勞保局局長石發基在3月受訪時表示，年金按通膨調高給付，造成勞保財務的洞實在太大了，問題很嚴重，撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕。他過去也主張以撥補來代替勞保改革，但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重，加上川普上任後，整個世界經濟動盪，前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高，但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道，勞保財務要永續其實是很困難。我還是要請教部長一樣的問題，對於健全勞保財務，難道只有讓人民不斷掏錢的手段嗎？只能不斷地撥補嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們對於勞保基金維持的作法與政策，其實並不是只有撥補，撥補很重要，但也不是只有撥補，各種方式我們也都在進行。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們還是等待專題報告啦！上次我們修正主決議之後，去年10月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會，不知道部長知不知道？這是針對勞保財務政府最終支付責任入法的公聽會，我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長參考，全國職業工會理事長楊芸蘋說，勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續繳納保費，如果基金財務出了問題，卻沒有人來負責的話，受害的將是最需要保障的這群弱勢族群。全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林恩豪也說，政府從上到下包括勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任，但是勞工最擔心的是會不會只聞樓梯響卻沒有落實？其實勞工朋友最關心的是他們年年繳納保費，但會不會終將化為烏有？所以我要請教部長，您是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢？您還支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想現在整個政策就是政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任。"],["陳委員昭姿：那入法呢？我的重點還是入法啊！"],["洪部長申翰：關於入法的問題，不管有入法或沒入法，政府都會負最終支付責任。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你看這張你當初有簽啊！我也簽，你也簽啊！就是入法啊！"],["洪部長申翰：所以我說對於相關的政策……對於委員的提案我們都還是會尊重。"],["陳委員昭姿：在野黨為什麼要再提入法你知道嗎？因為這個問題實在放太久了，因為沒有人想要解決，就只是把它放著。"],["洪部長申翰：我要強調我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響，其實現在政府亦有包括歲計賸餘的財源，我們就視財政的狀況來規劃撥補，其實這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補，包括特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補，所以我們是很努力在落實政府對於勞保基金財務責任的問題，並不是只聞樓梯響，我們不會這樣子。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持基金的水位，我想你也是有心來解決問題，但是針對入法，入法是白紙黑字，它確立政府的責任，讓政府能夠誠實地面對這個問題，也讓撥補可以正常化，這樣勞工就不用整天提心吊膽，因為看到報紙寫說快要破產了！部長你要記得立法的初衷啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對於現在委員在這部分的法案提案，我們第一個尊重，第二個是行政院確實也在整體……之前林國成委員在院會的質詢……"],["陳委員昭姿：是啊，這個案子就是林國成委員提的。"],["洪部長申翰：行政院院長也表達持開放的態度，覺得我們可以來研議，其實這就是我們對於勞保最終支付責任的態度。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，那我們就等著主決議修正的內容，看看你們怎麼開始動手。","另外，今天我在報告中沒有看到，臺灣開放移工已經有36年了，雖然你說勞保有七十幾年歷史。臺灣的照護產業及基層製造業高度仰賴移工的付出，但目前勞保及勞退制度改革大部分都集中在本勞，移工的處境其實也應該納入討論。5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求，部長知道這件事嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有，我知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：台灣照顧勞動產業工會指出，就業服務法從1992年就開始實施到現在，已經三十幾年了，仍然保留對移工不合理的制度，譬如對於藍領的移工，現行法設有12年的工作上限年限，雖然看護工可以在滿足評點制度的情況下延後到14年，但還是有上限，雖然有推出「留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫」作為延長工作許可的方法，但這個制度卻使移工陷入更深層的剝削，我告訴部長為什麼？因為中階的配額跟認定方法完全是由雇主主導，移工本身沒有談判權，而它所設的條件也足以讓以營利為目的的私營企業人力仲介公司有機可乘，收取高額費用，使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的負擔，部長，你知道這個狀況嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我知道這場記者會，也知道這裡面訴求的內容。"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道狀況是這樣，好。其實團體們有表示，計畫出發點是好的，你想要留才、久用，但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的，現在的制度無法客觀評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內的真才實幹，因為現在把評價責任外包給雇主，同時這個制度在相關過程當中創造許多工人更不可能參與的行政手續，等於給了人力仲介上下其手賺取違法收入的空間。我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長：第一個是工資被操控，為了能留在臺灣繼續工作，不少移工不得不配合雇主跟仲介簽訂不符合事實的勞動契約，接受低於中階制度規定的工資，這是第一個，也就是工資是被操控的。第二個，家庭看護工因為本身缺乏休假，資訊比較封閉，也因為中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中，他們常常淪為辦理中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象，通常被騙了好幾萬的臺幣來取得證照，可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿，甚至不要錢，這是第二個點，這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔，今年家事工跟正式部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%。第三個問題點是中階移工返國後想再回來臺灣很困難，因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到臺灣，必須透過母國的仲介，就會遇到一些困難，臺灣的仲介也不肯幫忙，為什麼呢？因為中階移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費，仲介無利可圖，這一切都在證明目前的中階制度裡面真正受益的不是移工，而是仲介受益。部長，這個部分……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：您今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分，但我們又仰賴很多……"],["洪部長申翰：因為今天的報告主題不是這個。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們過去很多的提案是要增加移工，但您都說有困難，表示臺灣沒有競爭力，沒有競爭力當然是很大的問題，有很多種原因，但是我想他們也貢獻了三十幾年。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們會有幾個事情，確實相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間，我們會從幾個部分來進行：第一個，我們會再更明確地去確保中階技術人力、藍領相關在臺灣的權益，這是第一個。第二個，我們現在已經交代發展署，會強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能，也就是說，的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介，讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮得更大，所以剛剛委員在講的，我們確實接下來是希望未來有更多的移工或雇主，他們在臺灣的聘僱、招聘過程裡面不一定非得要透過仲介……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我知道，你有講到重點了。"],["洪部長申翰：包括直聘的制度、轉換的制度我們現在都在檢討，甚至會做進一步的整合。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，產業工會三點訴求很清楚：第一個，廢除藍領移工的工作年限限制；第二個，修正中階制度，也就是剛剛提到的，使其公平、透明，並保障移工的權利；第三個，廢除仲介制度，全面用直接聘僱機制取代。剛剛你講了一些點，這些東西部內有在處理嗎？有在規劃嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就像剛才跟委員說明的……"],["陳委員昭姿：這才是重點啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們的確現在就是想要提高在直聘上面的量能及功能，能夠讓移工、雇主更好用，能更直接用政府的機制就順利完成移工聘僱過程所需要的相關權利保護，而不一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成，這是我們接下來希望盡力來做的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：這已經連續好幾任部長我都一直在質詢，但是……"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜，有新的來源國也都不做啊！部長，你有開始嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，並不是新的來源國不做，我還是要強調，就像在5月的時候，我們已經說接下來會在中南部再增設直聘中心的點。"],["陳委員昭姿：直聘中心的部分我再跟你討論，那個非常複雜。"],["洪部長申翰：直聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心……我們希望能夠做相關的整合，也就是我們都希望能對移工相關權益的服務有更大程度的提升。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我另外再提一點，許多家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重，制度沒有提供足夠的支持，導致移工跟雇主的關係很緊繃，這不是雇主的錯，而是政府還是要插手來管理這件事。部長，你在當立委的時候也非常關心移工的權利，你也理解移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢，你也知道需求越高，我們修了好幾部法，到現在都還沒有辦法進行，處境也較本國勞工辛苦些，我想政府如果真的希望看到一個永續、具包容性的退休制度，除了我們要照顧本勞的未來，也應該正視這群為臺灣經濟、製造業及照顧體系付出的移工。部長，您認同這樣的作法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我當然認同，我現在也還是很關心移工的權利。"],["陳委員昭姿：像巴氏量表等等的放寬到現在都沒有動靜，你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源之類的，那麼你就要從競爭……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要強調，並不是沒有動靜，我們發展署的同仁非常非常努力在準備相關的配套……"],["陳委員昭姿：很多人問喔！"],["洪部長申翰：現在的配套準備，其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套，就是希望降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊，因為確實現在有一些棄重擇輕的狀況已經開始在發生了，這是我們不願意見到的情況。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，勞動部的責任真的重大，我想讓部長知道，你身為部長的位階，臺灣是一個注重人權的國家，不論國籍跟膚色，我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要的是，除了其經濟力要很強之外，人權的議題也是非常重要，我也希望勞動部要將這個責任擔起來。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為過去我們有一些惡名，這也是不爭之事實，所以希望你把人權的部分、包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：勞動部請加油，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：謝謝。","接下來請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},{"id":"162186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162186","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b982867a362b9857a8edcb8fa27110b4cf3b3f0976ba27860ef12a7050ee30736cb025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:18:42 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馬上有請法務部部長 司法院副秘書長好 馬上部長 副秘書長委員長安兩位好 今天 召會所排的這個主題我相信兩位都不陌生 針對"},{"start":25.097,"end":52.599,"text":"沒有辦法有保護自我能力的小朋友遭到虐待並進一步發生死亡或者是重傷的結果社會上面以凱凱案發出了非常強烈的怒吼這不是今天才發生的事情過去這段時間我相信社會各界很多NGO團體甚至非常多的媽媽"},{"start":54.096,"end":60.903,"text":"站出來齊聚在台北地方法院的門口為了要關心凱凱案"},{"start":62.557,"end":87.826,"text":"大家都站出來發聲怒吼也有立法委員跑到台北地方法院加入這個抗議的行列表達人民的憤怒我覺得這都是公民表達意見健康的行為但重要的是當這些悲劇發生了以後我們的主管機關應對到底是什麼第一時間"},{"start":89.79,"end":104.037,"text":"民眾超過13萬將近14萬的公民在政策平台提出這樣的建議法務部第一時間是不予採納應該沒錯吧這公共政策的平台有寫錯法務部的意見嗎部長"},{"start":106.967,"end":125.126,"text":"呃的確是有勾到那個不予採納的現象但是我們的內文我們是有把各那個廣納社會意見今天還是不予採納嗎我們現在是採納我們有今天採納了沒有我們就是尊重我們各委員的一個提案所謂法務部沒有立場我們有自己的版本我們有在哪裡"},{"start":125.786,"end":146.426,"text":"我們在那個昨天跟明天會做一個研修的一個會議昨天跟明天會做研修的會議對 昨天有提到刑法的修正小組的一個會議那今天有在一個延伸的一個什麼時候版本要提出來我們盡速提出來什麼叫盡速提出來 今天就要審啊要等你們嗎那另外因為我們那個修法的一個要等你們嗎"},{"start":147.833,"end":170.326,"text":"需要等你們嗎 請針對問題回答 今天要不要等你們是不是可以 我們可以提出我們一個法案來當然可以 大家都在等啊 東西在哪裡那另外因為我們有在不好意思啊 請你針對問題回答好不好我問你東西在哪裡 然後你跟我講另外明天還要開會嘛 明天有那個所以今天要不要等你們今天要等你們嗎"},{"start":173.919,"end":199.019,"text":"如果委員的話我們會提出我們一個版本因為我想這個經過今天會提出來是不是明天有一個研修會對嘛所以我在一直問你今天要不要等你們嘛我剛才一直在講說5號明天有研修會所以今天要不要等你們今天就要審啦然後你跟我說你明天要開會昨天就開跟明天有兩次的一個會議是嘛所以今天要不要等你們要審檢變選嘛是今天要不要等你們"},{"start":201.018,"end":229.745,"text":"你還是沒有回答問題啊請問我的問題有很刁鑽嗎你說你昨天有開會明天要開會我們今天要審法案我說今天要不要等你們部長沒有立場喔委員如果要等我們那個法務部的一個研修的一個草案的意見那當然我們是很樂見這是拖多久啦這是拖多久啦從公共政策平台開始到現在多久啦"},{"start":232.523,"end":259.381,"text":"明天要開會那今天要不要等你們今天我再問一個問題所有委員這麼多委員的提案有沒有哪一個版本是法務部贊成的因為我看你們的書面報告我看了半天啊每一個版本你們全部都有批評那我看完了以後就剩下一個問題每一個版本法務部全部都有意見全部都批評那大家再問那法務部的版本在哪裡"},{"start":260.754,"end":275.126,"text":"今天委員提案的版本有沒有任何一個版本法務部是贊成的有還是沒有各委員的一個版本你們都尊重嘛我們會當作你們研議的嘛有沒有任何一個版本是你們贊成的有還是沒有有還是沒有我們會重整各委員的一個版本是是是啊東西在哪裡現在在還在研議嗎"},{"start":290.589,"end":304.803,"text":"我聽你講這種話講很多次了啦大家聽不下去了啦你的立法方向就是要嚴懲重罰你的立法方向嚴懲重罰你的版本在哪裡我一直問你版本在哪裡所以繼續研議嘛公共政策平台到現在多久啦"},{"start":310.506,"end":323.315,"text":"你今天在這邊還在打官腔我沒有打官腔齁這個委員我們也就在你身上你沒有打官腔把東西交出來嘛對那你把東西交出來嘛你講形容詞講空洞的"},{"start":324.352,"end":327.734,"text":"每一個委員的版本你全部都罵叫你自己拿版本出來沒有關係啦 今天你在這邊講的大家聽得下去 聽不下去每一個公民自己有自己的判斷啦好 來 下一個請示法院"},{"start":349.924,"end":355.385,"text":"請你先停一下好不好主席請他先停一下好不好現在是我的質詢時間欸我問的問題他不回答然後他在那邊故事的講你要開記者會請你等下後法務部你出去開記者會跟全民交代"},{"start":372.95,"end":387.295,"text":"我問的問題你有沒有回答還是在浪費我的時間透過直播大家都有一把尺可以看啦我們時間先暫停所以大家先冷靜下來那我們現在再繼續開始沒有主席我只要求一個最基本的規則"},{"start":388.735,"end":407.443,"text":"現在是尋答捏我問問題他不回答在那邊自顧自講他自己的部長麻煩一下因為是備詢麻煩就委員的問題去你找我部長要開記者會看你要講多久隨便你啦在那邊浪費我的質詢時間來請司法院我收到一個澄清喔是凱凱的網路爸媽澄清書阿他們有提出很具體修法的建議"},{"start":419.704,"end":435.396,"text":"但是第二點 請你看一下他們現在訴求啊廢除死刑一字決現在該怎麼辦 從司法院的觀點台灣是一個憲政民主的國家嘛現在人民發出怒吼啦"},{"start":437.842,"end":466.041,"text":"這些爸媽團體要求要廢除死刑一字決啊來 司法院可不可以告訴全體台灣的公民憲法法庭說死刑各審期一定要一字決那現在人民發出怒吼說要廢除該怎麼做告訴大家該怎麼做因為這些爸爸媽媽大家很痛心看不下去大法官的這個要求提出了這樣的訴求"},{"start":467.338,"end":488.756,"text":"台灣的人民有權利知道面對這種自己擴權的大法官現在人民能夠怎麼辦還是沒有辦法大法官說了算你們都拿我沒皮條立法院乖乖聽話人民不滿你們也沒有任何的手段可以做來 請教司法院"},{"start":490.014,"end":501.754,"text":"那個報告委員齁那個因為委員所垂詢的這個問題已經涉及到我國那個憲政各機關職權這個部分司法院呃 尊重 奇怪憲法法庭不就在司法院嗎"},{"start":503.98,"end":529.388,"text":"如果司法院沒有辦法回答那是誰要回答 行政院回答嗎還是總統賴清德出來回答這跟考試院監察院絕對沒關係啦因為有關於大法官所做的這一個判決呢就是依照我國上來的那個釋字185還有那個645的那個解釋它是有一定的那個效力的所以就是說"},{"start":530.748,"end":544.691,"text":"呃 委員所垂詢的就是說這個不是我垂詢的啊是這一群爸媽垂詢的啊他們沒有機會站在這邊請教司法院所以我們作為民意代表有機會站在這邊請教所以我幫他們請教現在該怎麼辦誰能夠怎麼辦誰拿這些大法官有皮條請教司法院我接到陳情我一定要幫他們問啦這不是一兩個人欸"},{"start":560.669,"end":587.779,"text":"是一群憤怒的爸媽他們提出這樣的訴求要我們立法委員想辦法我也在想辦法該怎麼辦現在把法庭在司法院這沒有問題嘛所以我今天拜託司法院給這些陳情的爸媽示意該怎麼辦他們能夠做什麼還是回家抱著棉被哭就可以了來請司法院"},{"start":592.052,"end":620.454,"text":"委員這剛剛已經回覆過了因為你沒有回覆啊我請教的是司法院說這些憤怒的人民該怎麼辦回家抱著棉被哭嗎司法院的立場就是尊重那個大法官所做的那個解釋啊對嘛但是人民憤怒嘛人民無法接受嘛也不想接受嘛大家都在問啊我國憲法什麼時候給大法官這麼高的權利啊手伸得這麼深啊"},{"start":623.732,"end":644.47,"text":"我之前已經請教過司法院了全世界有哪一個國家要求死刑一字決要各省級全部都要一字決你講個立法例出來給大家聽嘛大家看不懂啊不要說他們看不懂連我都看不懂啊這個判決出來第一時間我就問這個問題啦現在是他們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣"},{"start":650.956,"end":655.318,"text":"立法院拿他們沒皮條這些憤怒的爸媽也拿他們沒皮條他們現在是以為他們是台灣民主憲政的太上皇人家提這樣的陳情出來了現在我們這些掌握權力的人怎麼面對怎麼面對我該怎麼回答這些爸媽"},{"start":682.894,"end":691.179,"text":"對不起 你的陳情完全沒道理 大法官說了算我們立法委員沒有辦法 司法院也不知道該怎麼辦就是他們說了算我希望喔今天在這邊的質詢這一些爸媽所提出來的疑問所有參與這個憲判制8號的憲法法庭的大法官我希望他們都能看到"},{"start":710.888,"end":720.939,"text":"我也希望他們能夠發揮所謂憲法守護者的精神勇敢的站出來告訴這些爸媽你們能夠怎麼辦你們能夠拿我們怎麼辦今天的法律案我不知道趙薇等不等"},{"start":733.939,"end":739.608,"text":"但我代表台灣民眾黨黨團表達立場我們支持如果今天要出委員會就要出委員會好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時18分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請法務部部長、司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，早安。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。今天召委所排的這個主題，我相信兩位都不陌生，針對沒有辦法有自我保護能力的小朋友，遭到虐待並進一步發生死亡或者是重傷的結果，社會上以剴剴案發出了非常強烈的怒吼。這不是今天才發生的事情，過去這段時間，我相信社會各界、很多NGO團體，甚至非常多的媽媽站出來，齊聚在臺北地方法院的門口，為了要關心剴剴案，大家都站出來發聲怒吼，也有立法委員跑到臺北地方法院加入抗議的行列，表達人民的憤怒，我覺得這都是公民表達意見的健康行為。但重要的是，當這些悲劇發生了以後，我們主管機關的應對到底是什麼？第一時間，超過13萬、將近14萬的公民在政策平臺提出這樣的建議，法務部第一時間是不予採納，應該沒錯吧？這個公共政策平臺有寫錯法務部的意見嗎，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確是有勾到不予採納的選項，但是我們的內文有廣納社會意見……"],["黃委員國昌：今天還是不予採納嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在是採納，我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：今天採納了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我們就是尊重各委員的提案……"],["黃委員國昌：所以法務部沒有立場？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有自己的版本，我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在昨天跟明天會做研修的會議……"],["黃委員國昌：昨天跟明天會做研修的會議？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，昨天有提到刑法修正小組的會議，那今天有在一個研商的……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候版本要提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘速提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫儘速提出來？今天就要審了，要等你們嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，因為我們修法的方向……"],["黃委員國昌：要等你們嗎？需要等你們嗎？請針對問題回答，今天要不要等你們？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是可以讓我們提出一個法案來……"],["黃委員國昌：當然可以，大家都在等啊！東西在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，因為我們有在……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請你針對問題回答，好不好？我問你東西在哪裡，然後你跟我講：另外！"],["鄭部長銘謙：明天還要開會，明天有研商會議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以今天要不要等你們？今天要等你們嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會提出我們的版本，因為這個經過……"],["黃委員國昌：今天會提出來，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：明天有一個研修會議。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我一直問你今天要不要等你們嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我剛才一直講說，5號、明天有研修會議……"],["黃委員國昌：所以今天要不要等你們？今天就要審了，然後你跟我說你明天要開會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天就開以及明天，總共有2次會議。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，所以今天要不要等你們？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要審檢辯學……"],["黃委員國昌：是，今天要不要等你們？你還是沒有回答問題啊！奇怪，我的問題有很刁鑽嗎？你說：你昨天有開會、明天要開會。可是我們今天要審法案，我說：今天要不要等你們？部長沒有立場喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果委員要等我們法務部的研修草案意見，當然我們很樂見。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事拖多久啦？從公共政策平臺開始到現在多久啦？明天要開會……"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天……"],["黃委員國昌：那今天要不要等你們？","今天我再問一個問題，有這麼多委員的提案，有沒有哪一個版本是法務部贊成的？因為我看你們的書面報告看了半天，每一個版本你們都有批評，那我看完以後就剩下一個問題，每一個版本法務部都有意見、全部都批評，大家在問：法務部的版本在哪裡？今天委員提案的版本中有沒有任何一個版本是法務部贊成的？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：各委員的版本我們……"],["黃委員國昌：你們都尊重嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也會當作我們研議……因為現在還在開會，我們當作修法參考。"],["黃委員國昌：是，都當作你們研議的嘛。有沒有任何一個版本是你們贊成的，有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會綜整各委員的版本來做修法的參考。"],["黃委員國昌：是！東西在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還在……"],["黃委員國昌：還在研議嘛，我聽你講這種話講很多次了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我想我們一個立法方向……"],["黃委員國昌：大家聽不下去了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的立法方向就是要嚴懲重罰，我想我上次……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，你的立法方向是嚴懲重罰，你的版本在哪裡？我一直問你版本在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，我們會把它列入第二百七十二條的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：所以繼續研議嘛，公共政策平臺到現在多久啦，你今天還在這邊打官腔。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有打官腔，委員，我們也真的很慎重……"],["黃委員國昌：你沒有打官腔，那把東西交出來嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們對這部分就是嚴懲重罰嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對，那你把東西交出來嘛！你講形容詞、講空洞的，每一個委員的版本你全部都罵……"],["鄭部長銘謙：上次的詢答我已經有報告過了……"],["黃委員國昌：叫你自己拿版本出來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們也是會嚴懲重罰，如果以凌虐為殺人手段，我們認為是一個殺人的特別加重事由……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，今天你在這邊講的，大家聽得下去、聽不下去，每一個公民自己有自己的判斷啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：尤其對未滿7歲的兒童，我們都嚴懲重罰……致死這部分我們也尊重委員的提案，我們納入修法的參考……但是我們納入第二百七十二條……"],["黃委員國昌：下一個請司法院。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，請不要誤會我們的意見……"],["黃委員國昌：請你先停一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們……"],["黃委員國昌：主席！請他先停一下，好不好？"],["主席：大家先冷靜……"],["黃委員國昌：現在是我的質詢時間，我問的問題他不回答，然後他在那邊自顧自地講，你要開記者會，請你等一下會後法務部出去開記者會跟全民交代！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我有回答……未滿7歲的這些兒童以凌虐的方式的話……我們認為……"],["主席：部長，先等一下，委員，先都冷靜……"],["黃委員國昌：我問的問題你有沒有回答，還是在浪費我的時間？透過直播大家都有一把尺可以看！"],["主席：我們時間先暫停，大家先冷靜下來。我們現在再繼續開始。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，我只要求一個最基本的規則，現在是詢答，我問問題他不回答，在那邊自顧自講他自己的。"],["主席：部長，麻煩一下，因為是備詢，麻煩你就委員的問題回答就好。"],["黃委員國昌：你法務部部長要開記者會，看你要講多久隨便你啦，在那邊浪費我的質詢時間！","請司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我收到一個陳情，是剴剴的網路爸媽陳情書，他們有提出很具體的修法建議，但是第二點請你看一下，他們現在訴求廢除死刑一致決，從司法院的觀點來看，現在該怎麼辦？臺灣是一個憲政民主的國家，現在人民發出怒吼，這些爸媽團體要求廢除死刑一致決！司法院可不可以告訴全體臺灣的公民，憲法法庭說死刑各審級一定要一致決，但現在人民發出怒吼、說要廢除，告訴大家該怎麼做？因為這些爸爸媽媽很痛心，看不下去大法官的這個要求、提出了這樣的訴求，臺灣的人民有權利知道，面對這種自己擴權的大法官，現在人民能夠怎麼辦還是沒有辦法？大法官說了算，你們都拿我沒皮條，立法院乖乖聽話，人民不滿，你們也沒有任何的手段可以做，請教司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為委員所垂詢的這個問題已經涉及到我國憲政的各機關職權，這個部分司法院尊重……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，憲法法庭不就在司法院嗎？如果司法院沒有辦法回答，那是誰要回答？行政院回答嗎？還是總統賴清德出來回答？這跟考試院、監察院絕對沒關係。"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為有關於大法官所做的這一個判決，依照我國過去的釋字第185號還有釋字第645號解釋，它是有一定效力的。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["王副秘書長梅英：也就是說，委員所垂詢的……"],["黃委員國昌：不是我垂詢的，是這群爸媽垂詢的，他們沒有機會站在這邊請教司法院，我們做為民意代表有機會站在這邊請教，所以我幫他們請教，現在該怎麼辦？誰能夠怎麼辦？誰拿這些大法官有皮條？請教司法院，我接到陳情我一定要幫他們問，這不是一、兩個人，是一群憤怒的爸媽提出這樣的訴求，要我們立法委員想辦法，我也在想辦法，該怎麼辦？憲法法庭在司法院，這沒有問題嘛，所以我今天拜託司法院給這些陳情的爸媽釋疑，該怎麼辦？他們能夠做什麼？還是回家抱著棉被哭就可以了？請司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，這剛剛已經回復過了，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：你沒有回復啊，我是請教司法院，這些憤怒的人民該怎麼辦？回家抱著棉被哭嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：司法院的立場就是尊重大法官所做的解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是人民憤怒嘛，人民無法接受、也不想接受嘛！大家都在問，我國憲法什麼時候給大法官這麼高的權力？手伸得這麼深！我之前已經請教過司法院，全世界有哪一個國家要求死刑一致決、要各審級全部都要一致決？你講個立法例出來給大家聽，大家看不懂，不要說他們看不懂，連我都看不懂啊！這個判決出來，第一時間我就問這個問題。現在是他們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣，立法院拿他們沒皮條，這些憤怒的爸媽也拿他們沒皮條！他們現在是以為他們是臺灣民主憲政的太上皇，人家提這樣的陳情出來了，現在我們這些掌握權力的人要怎麼面對？怎麼面對？我該怎麼回答這些爸媽？對不起！你的陳情完全沒道理，大法官說了算，我們立法委員沒有辦法，司法院也不知道該怎麼辦，就是他們說了算！","我希望今天在這邊的質詢，這些爸媽所提出來的疑問，所有參與這個憲判字第8號的憲法法庭大法官，我希望他們都能看到，我也希望他們能夠發揮所謂憲法守護者的精神，勇敢的站出來，告訴這些爸媽你們能夠怎麼辦，你們能夠拿我們怎麼辦！今天的法律案我不知道召委等不等，但我代表台灣民眾黨黨團表達立場，我們支持，如果今天要出委員會，就讓它出委員會，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請黃國昌委員代理主席。"],["黃委員國昌：你要不要請王委員？"],["主席：請問王委員有空嗎？可以代理主席？"],["王委員鴻薇：可以啊！"],["黃委員國昌：我想你們的委員在，這樣比較有禮貌。"],["主席：好，再麻煩王委員代理主席。"],["主席（王委員鴻薇代）：請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}