{"total":{"value":76,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-06-05"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"162295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564ff840afd7c6ab9bdbbacbcf4f939c22c46063d171e8badfa1ca84830d9e0e02a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:41:35 - 11:51:29","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:41:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:51:29+08:00","duration":594,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.4990937500000001,"end":5.0934687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.39721875,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.79534375,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.504093750000003,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.65159375,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.03096875,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.39346875,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.97534375,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.19346875,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.43721875,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.74096875,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.90971875,"end":51.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.65971875,"end":53.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.24159375,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.924718750000004,"end":59.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.67534375,"end":62.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.51909375,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.78471875,"end":64.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.18096875,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.49284375,"end":68.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.14659375000001,"end":71.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.26846875000001,"end":76.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.68596875,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.26784375000001,"end":87.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.83159375000001,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.97596875,"end":108.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.02659375,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.73534375000001,"end":109.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.27096875000001,"end":111.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.30471875,"end":121.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.62534375000001,"end":111.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.83909375,"end":160.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.96096875,"end":125.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.54596875000001,"end":170.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.57971875,"end":161.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.12659375,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.34971875000002,"end":179.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.85096875000002,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.06596875000002,"end":181.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.60596875000002,"end":183.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.34409375,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.43659375000001,"end":185.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.47034375,"end":185.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.79284375,"end":201.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.41284375,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.23034375,"end":212.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.89221875,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.76721875,"end":252.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.26159375,"end":252.27846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.27846875000003,"end":267.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.98909375,"end":289.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.19346875,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.28534375000004,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.37659375000004,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.66346875,"end":331.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.49534375,"end":323.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.51534375,"end":329.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.51909375,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.10971875,"end":338.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.26909375,"end":342.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.80034375,"end":342.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.86346875000004,"end":349.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.63471875000005,"end":350.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.72721875,"end":353.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.91659375,"end":358.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.92846875000004,"end":360.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.37534375,"end":361.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.03346875,"end":362.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.94471875000005,"end":365.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.86409375000005,"end":368.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.86784375,"end":376.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.46159375,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.21659375,"end":387.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.20659375,"end":393.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.91034375000004,"end":394.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.92284375,"end":399.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.31034375,"end":400.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.23409375,"end":407.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.35971875,"end":407.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.15284375000005,"end":410.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.57034375,"end":422.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.99471875,"end":424.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.19659375000003,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.00221875000005,"end":434.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.79846875000004,"end":437.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.89971875000003,"end":436.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.59971875,"end":437.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.76846875,"end":437.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.83596875,"end":437.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.88659375000003,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.90346875,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.03846875000005,"end":482.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.80784375,"end":484.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.61346875000004,"end":486.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.70596875,"end":487.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.29659375000006,"end":491.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.34659375,"end":491.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.49846875000003,"end":497.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.94471875000005,"end":503.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.30659375000005,"end":509.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.23409375000006,"end":514.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.4990937499999,"end":524.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.23159375,"end":525.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.46346875,"end":526.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.1047187500001,"end":528.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.3703437500001,"end":529.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.6865937499999,"end":533.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.39909375,"end":534.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.95159375,"end":542.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.4778437500001,"end":546.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.13534375,"end":548.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.26596875,"end":549.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.6497187500001,"end":576.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.72284375,"end":568.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.43034375,"end":580.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":576.6159687500001,"end":576.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.24034375,"end":578.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":579.4509687500001,"end":587.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.92221875,"end":593.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.96846875,"end":589.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.6897187500001,"end":593.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.57534375,"end":594.14909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.57,"end":17.316,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位列席 各位大家早我在這邊先聲明有關疫情需求的部分預算的部分我們請衛福部儘早送到立法院來我們會全力來協助主席 謝謝有請衛福部邱部長"},{"start":23.73,"end":48.361,"text":"部長早部長現在疫情升溫的現在在升溫是那很多人都在網路上面謠傳說是因為藍白的立委刪了疫苗的預算那我想要在這邊跟部長請你做一下說明就是說疫苗採購的預算是編列在基金目前根本就沒有所謂的刪減跟凍結那會不會要趁這個機會來告訴民眾不要誤信謠言是不是這樣子 部長"},{"start":56.442,"end":70.511,"text":"當然基金的財產也是公務預算補助啦其實都有互動但是這一次的基金的購買是沒有刪除的對就是疫苗防疫的部分但是在凍結剛剛你有提到1000萬的那個吼那個是業務費"},{"start":71.451,"end":87,"text":"那個部分有影響到我們對 你剛剛說的是另外一部分我現在問的部長已經解凍了啦我們要很明確不是解凍歸解凍那是另外一件事我們要說的就是疫苗採購這些部分不管是這個包括我們"},{"start":88.642,"end":105.482,"text":"審計部的這個部分也是在1213114年的也都是這個都是在這個疫苗基金裡面所以這個部分也都沒有所謂的刪減或凍結所以要在這個機會讓衛福部來說明就是說疫苗的基金"},{"start":106.623,"end":134.746,"text":"預算完全沒有凍結跟刪減對不對部長是不是那個署長要不要先回答一下我再報告一下就是有關那個公務基金公務預算補這個疫苗基金的部分原來有凍結1000萬疫苗的部分有凍結不過已經解凍了不是你剛剛提到凍結就是剛剛業務費的部分對業務費那除了之外所以應該這麼講就是說目前這個也還沒有二三讀所以根本就沒有凍結買疫苗的錢一文未減這是很明確的"},{"start":135.126,"end":155.797,"text":"那第二個就是2021年6月7號到2023年的5月1號期間因為為了要鼓勵醫療院所協助執行大規模的新冠疫苗接種作業所以政府提供每人這個公費疫苗100元的處置費另外100元額外加碼的這個獎勵金這個獎勵就是要作為醫療院所不收掛號費的一個補貼這是明確的這是對的嘛"},{"start":162.161,"end":176.509,"text":"所以現在短少的100元獎勵金的部分是因為我們衛福部這邊沒有編列這100元的獎勵金對不對那個是用特別預算 現在沒有特別預算對 所以是因為我們衛福部這邊沒有編列這100元的獎勵金對不對"},{"start":181.738,"end":192.842,"text":"因為那個要有特別預算才有啦沒有這個預算所以沒有編嘛所以不是因為預算刪減的問題是因為沒有這個預算沒有這個特別預算所以沒有編所以這樣很明確我們是在這邊要澄清這些謠言謝謝部長這部分我想還回歸正題因為"},{"start":202.452,"end":229.213,"text":"都有廉價我們的急診數你剛剛有報告上升了許多像這個是急診就診人數45.9%然後這個住院人數較前一週上漲了18.6%那所以我想在這麼高的一個就診人數的一個情況趨勢這往上升那我們衛福部會不會再一次把新冠升級為法定傳染病會不會有沒有這個"},{"start":230.073,"end":251.804,"text":"因為它本來就第四類傳染病 新委員的執行那傳染病其實是依照致死率 發生率 還有傳播速度等危害程度來分類那現在因為整個國際間 包括WHO也把這樣的新冠變成一個常規監測的方面所以目前來講還沒有到達需要去升級的地步"},{"start":252.344,"end":269.12,"text":"就是說如果有這個必要我們就會來做這樣子的一個裁判定那另外我再請教就是說我還是要提醒衛福部就快篩用藥還有邊境的檢疫事後後續的這些醫療處理這個部分我們因為你們推估從6月到7月初是疫情的高峰嘛"},{"start":270.561,"end":297.876,"text":"從五月底到八月初整體染疫人數將會上達高達170萬人次所以現在民眾都很關注我們的所有的防疫作為尤其像快篩試劑現在不足嘛馬上會補足我知道剛剛我聽到你的報告那包括這個抗毒抗病毒的藥物等等這些要讓他盡快的充足那另外我們警官署最近也跟這些我們醫界的團體舉行過會議"},{"start":299.717,"end":324.052,"text":"整個研疫的研疫新冠病情的這些防疫作為都聚焦在這個快篩試劑還有抗病毒的藥物那你剛剛都說了很多也說得很完整那我是要提醒就是說我們還是要告訴民眾要告訴民眾說如果出現了新冠疫情的病狀我們還是要如果是比較輕的病狀還是要在診所就醫診所就醫那如果像"},{"start":325.372,"end":349.886,"text":"這種症狀嚴重的還有長者跟小孩的部分才建議到醫院那確實是因為說我們現在目前COVID-19的施打情形你剛剛也有報告了所以你現在也是鼓勵民眾要盡速的來施打COVID-19對不對是這樣子的我們10月1號還沒有打的現在6個月以上就可以打最好是大家有一個問題就是美國的CDC"},{"start":353.968,"end":367.779,"text":"他說如果家長和醫生同意有必要新冠疫苗仍是健康兒童的接種選項但是他這個觀點跟美國的衛生部長他日前的宣布不同調"},{"start":368.922,"end":393.077,"text":"美國的這個衛福部長在社群媒體上面發布影片說他非常高興的宣布從今天起針對健康兒童健康孕婦的新冠疫苗已從疾病管制預防中心CDC預防接種建議時程中移除所以我要請教部長說那現在我們國內在施打的疫苗都是美國的莫德納"},{"start":394.98,"end":406.638,"text":"他是一家美國的部長跟他們的CDC有不同的看法那他們連美國衛福部部長都對於他們的疫苗都有疑慮那我們衛福部"},{"start":407.441,"end":421.906,"text":"要的指引是什麼我們有堅強的防疫專家我們的任何怎麼施打包括騎乘換尾其實都有經過ACIP請教說為什麼他們的衛福部長會要求"},{"start":427.068,"end":443.584,"text":"等於是說跟他們的CDC不同調然後認為說健康的兒童跟健康的孕婦不適合施打他們的疫苗主要是因為本身美國的部長他本身也是一個反疫苗的一個人士"},{"start":444.204,"end":471.091,"text":"那再加上說他是希望說FDA美國FDA在今年10月的時候的那個就是有關健康有關兒童跟孕婦的這一塊能有更多的證據來提供所以他是希望說可以進行一些理想試驗主要是因為他是認為過去的這個很多人感染很多人這個也打了疫苗那這個評估很難做一個建議不過這個部分我們事實上"},{"start":472.352,"end":496.426,"text":"會 其實各國有各有不同的意見那我們會在收集之後在ACIP的一個我們國內ACIP的委員在做一個討論來做一個建議 以上好 謝謝署長那我再請教病床的問題部長你是醫界出身那我非常尊敬你但是像急診擁塞沒有病床這個部分我看到你們的報告書裡面是寫是"},{"start":498.027,"end":524.554,"text":"告訴我們說病床是充裕的但是我們實際知道的情況這個從這個健保署重度急救責任醫院急診及時查詢結果到6月2日子林口禪更有147人台大醫院有119人等待住院那隨著這次疫情的升溫我們醫師職業工會也都跳出來講說一切的窘境都往這個"},{"start":526.694,"end":545.168,"text":"惡化的方向演進那家屋病房人力不足人力流失而縮緊人手關閉病床那不同的醫院之間也依靠電話逐床逐院問床總是問不到願意接手的醫院那急診醫師只能感嘆的說不要生重病不要生重病那外部在這邊"},{"start":547.169,"end":575.885,"text":"有什麼不就措施我們在過年那一波其實已經建立好有三大策略兩大方向第一個就是分級分流要做好院內的病房的病床的調控要配合急診的需求還有當然提高提高相關的給付這個其實都有幫忙我相信都有幫忙那剛剛您提的這個是大概是不是禮拜一的狀況台大醫院大概禮拜一都會大概一百二十個"},{"start":576.605,"end":580.47,"text":"我們在講重症病床是比較充裕那當然就職的人士是比較多一點是有這樣子我們不要讓第一線的醫務人員我們一定會努力"}]}},{"id":"162290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56480ddbf6da10ff2d1bbacbcf4f939c22c46063d171e8badfa0688a33c2524b26f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:22:36 - 11:31:23","影片長度":"00:08:47","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:22:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:31:23+08:00","duration":527,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.38096875,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.25846875,"end":3.6590937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.26659375,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.185968750000001,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.04659375,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.20221875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.94346875,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.15846875,"end":27.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.53721875,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.53659375,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.57846875,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.09284375,"end":43.416593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.517843750000004,"end":47.534093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.56784375,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.12346875,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.07159375,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.48846875000001,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.39409375000001,"end":79.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.86471875000001,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.99971875,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.59846875000001,"end":94.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.98659375000001,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.95659375000001,"end":98.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.90159375,"end":100.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.77909375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.63971875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.02784375,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.65221875,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.66909375,"end":101.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.82096875,"end":104.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.20034375,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.90409375,"end":127.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.61096875000001,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.29784375,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.20471875,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.47471875000002,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.65159375000002,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.60471875000002,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.75221875,"end":150.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.76471875000001,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.48846875,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.79409375,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.99534375000002,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.35346875000002,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.16284375,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.87096875,"end":190.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.47409375,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.17846875,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.62534375,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.62909375,"end":210.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.31159375000001,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.62721875000003,"end":210.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.90096875,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.36846875,"end":221.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.44346875000002,"end":225.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.07159375,"end":246.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.65909375,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.02034375,"end":261.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.42471875,"end":267.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.70221875000004,"end":275.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.03846875,"end":278.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.58659375,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":291.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.28909375,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.92596875000004,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.05034375,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.46721875000003,"end":319.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.00659375000004,"end":318.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.01909375,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.83221875000004,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.30034375,"end":331.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.79721875,"end":336.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.60659375,"end":340.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.66534375000003,"end":345.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.71534375000005,"end":361.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.24909375000004,"end":362.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.47221875,"end":369.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.72471875,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.24284375,"end":405.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.85846875000004,"end":402.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.83721875000003,"end":414.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.80159375000005,"end":482.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.22346875000005,"end":442.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.55971875,"end":451.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.30596875000003,"end":490.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.55346875000004,"end":495.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.50221875000005,"end":496.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.56534375,"end":507.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.27284375000005,"end":504.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.04034375000003,"end":513.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.9128437500001,"end":514.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.39784375,"end":514.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.93784375,"end":516.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.82784375,"end":520.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.29159375,"end":519.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.0634687500001,"end":521.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.55284375,"end":523.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.1728437500001,"end":527.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.07971875,"end":525.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.77159375,"end":526.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.9697187500001,"end":527.05409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.69,"end":3.414,"text":"還有我們莊仁祥署長中署長委員好是 署長好"},{"start":11.209,"end":32.688,"text":"部長署長還有所有我們衛福部的同仁謝謝你們從2019年COVID-19開始到現在其實之前我在衛環委員會其實都很深刻的感受到大家其實在這個疫情發生的期間你們所付出的一個辛勞真的要非常謝謝你們"},{"start":33.689,"end":63.032,"text":"那在這一段時間就是說我們很多防疫的一個措施那雖然目前我們防疫已經降級了那這個COVID也轉為第四類的傳染病可是在近期我們好像看到又不斷的有這個疫情的一個上升為什麼因為病毒不斷的這個演化可是我們的疫苗有沒有持續的就是說在進進那甚至就是說在"},{"start":64.973,"end":88.634,"text":"這個本土的一個死亡的病例我們可以看這個資料裡頭看看就是說在最近這幾個幾週裡頭很明顯很明顯就是說他們一直上來那在這裡要請教部長部長 是有沒有特別比較好的一個防疫的一個措施現在其實一定在進行中那你的總預算你的總預算是3700億"},{"start":91.957,"end":92.738,"text":"維護部的總預算是3700億那就是我們機關署呢"},{"start":99.302,"end":127.123,"text":"機關署你的預算多少120億來 那個機關署你是不是那個今年應該好像500億左右啦那明年是100 爭取120億明年爭取120億那好 在這個機關署裡頭這個120億有95億是用來做防疫的一個計畫可是你這個防疫的計畫其實你還防艾滋啊 防很多流感那你放在COVID裡頭 你放了多少錢"},{"start":129.465,"end":150.06,"text":"38億左右肺炎的一個防疫95億裡頭你放了38億39億那這39億在執行的情況之下現在已經進到6月了那你覺得在未來如果有這個疫情的一個增加你有沒有辦法去應付"},{"start":150.56,"end":174.526,"text":"應該是說面對這一波的疫情應該是比較大雖然我們這個抗病毒藥物大概還有43萬人份但是我們可能要到8月的時候看一下它使用的狀況那如果因為秋冬可能還有一波啦所以我們雖然還有大概10萬人份的那個貝拉維的部分也會考慮進去但是不是還需要再增加這個抗病毒藥物"},{"start":175.126,"end":186.603,"text":"所以你隨時準備要增加嘛就是說我們的公會疫苗一直傳說就是在大S那一波已經用掉了"},{"start":186.929,"end":209.532,"text":"那是流感疫苗的部分這個是新冠疫苗不一樣那你的公會疫苗現在還有多少目前大概還有300萬劑新冠疫苗的部分300萬劑那我們在上個禮拜看到的你的庫存是308萬7千那你幾乎是一個星期打掉了3萬劑我們現在看到的是上個禮拜大概6萬7"},{"start":210.973,"end":224.96,"text":"六萬七千劑左右那目前每一天大概都一萬多劑是啊那這樣子的話你顯然你有沒有辦法去應付就是就是後續的這些大爆發的狀況"},{"start":226.381,"end":246.107,"text":"應該是說目前因為它整個疫情其實很快啦就是大概只有一個月之內大概就到高峰了所以我們現在也在鼓勵民眾在打疫苗但是就是說目前其實我們在各個縣市的一個診所其實都只要民眾願意打我們都可以提供沒有問題"},{"start":246.907,"end":251.509,"text":"那在這裡我再特別請教部長怎麼樣改善公會疫苗的採購跟庫存的一個評估那我們從衛福部裡頭那個的資料我們認為就是說你寫得很清楚喔這個2024年是550萬劑的COVID的一個採購那使用的情況"},{"start":267.795,"end":286.725,"text":"我們看不到比較明確的一個公開的一個數據可是在流感疫苗的採購裡頭就寫得非常的清楚反而是流感寫得很清楚COVID寫得不是那麼的一個清楚那相較於過去你在最近這一期你做了多少的一個調整"},{"start":289.291,"end":306.767,"text":"你說使用量嗎使用量沒有關係你就講使用量我們當然是希望宣導該施打的對象要趕快來盡量施打盡量把這個採購的用盡量把它使用"},{"start":308.12,"end":325.149,"text":"所以就顯然就是說這些都是在你的準備當中都是在你的掌握裡頭所以我們會隨著疫情說實在那種先導的強度會更需要啦可是你的預算被砍了那個就是先導會被砍了六成啊那你現在到底夠不夠錢啊"},{"start":326.874,"end":338.789,"text":"那當然做需要花錢的先導就可能會影響但是我們所以你看羅一金副書長整天在寫臉書 整天在開記者會寫臉書開記者會 那錢啊 錢怎麼辦啊"},{"start":345.837,"end":368.706,"text":"所以說主計處在這個地方你要挨啊 你要講啊今天其實就是換了一個場景到這個地方來在九樓就是財政委員會的地方我覺得你應該就是也有所準備真的很謝謝財政委員會的關心啦這個要謝謝我們耐斯堡召委他特別排了一個這個案子讓我們大家都說 現在是要造成景象了解以前的狀況"},{"start":372.327,"end":388.155,"text":"是啊所以就是說非常清楚因為經過討論嘛大家會看到就是說整個衛福部的一個困境那如何如何來補上來這個也是要跟部長就是也鼓勵也請你那個提出來就是說"},{"start":388.875,"end":404.3,"text":"是不是有趕快提出最佳預算來補強防疫的一個宣導的一個需求你光是這個宣傳費用就被捅三了六成這個多嚴重啊這個是非常嚴重的所以我知道你的困難我已經請那個機關署在超前部署來估算那我相信政府一定會來支持我們防疫所有的預算跟資源"},{"start":414.864,"end":443.503,"text":"好那部長跟你提到的基層醫療院所目前的這個疫苗處置費用100塊那這個100塊當然是不夠的我們從那個兒科醫學會裡頭他有特別講到了就是說光是基層的醫療院所他們要儲存一個疫苗他們需要相關的專業冷藏的冰箱還要需要不斷電的系統還有溫度的一個監控這施打的經過還要經過"},{"start":445.024,"end":465.123,"text":"就是我們醫護人員的三讀五對一定要打得很正確人要施打也都是要校對的很清楚光是這些冷鏈的設備人力的一個行政還有就是物流的一個運輸那如果像他們這樣換算一個疫苗一支就要410塊"},{"start":467.085,"end":488.024,"text":"那在醫學中心平均要到592塊那有沒有機會我們重新再來就是說考慮提高這個疫苗處置費用的補助的金額呢那個是不是請那個我先補充一下我還是在這邊謝謝賴委員在過去幾年尤其在防疫COVID防疫當中對於疫苗處置費的爭取"},{"start":491.386,"end":519.273,"text":"讓基層醫療院所一定打疫苗所以鎖住了疫情幫助非常大那有關於這個要提升這個部分我們已經有在可能的範圍來爭取明年有更多的預算那能爭取多少我們會再繼續努力所以說部長就是我們會提升那我們提升這個補貼我們一定往這方面來努力對 那就是說這阿舊娘是不是這樣說可以這樣講"},{"start":521.769,"end":522.491,"text":"應該是這樣子可以這樣講好 謝謝部長也謝謝我們謝謝那周圍的資訊"}]}},{"id":"162287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564eee684b6007fe7d0bbacbcf4f939c22c46063d171e8badfa1b9d0562b452a15f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:13:02 - 11:22:27","影片長度":"00:09:25","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:13:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:22:27+08:00","duration":565,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.08096875,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.29909375,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.05409375,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.32784375,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.42909375,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.10409375,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.60096875,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.02284375,"end":29.984093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.06846875,"end":32.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.34221875,"end":35.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.09284375,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.78034375,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.99534375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.08346875,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.61471875,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.81721875,"end":44.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.06596875,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.16284375,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.548468750000005,"end":67.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.14284375,"end":67.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.64909375,"end":67.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.98659375,"end":72.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.88034375000001,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.61846875,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.12846875000001,"end":87.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.00034375,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.55221875000001,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.97784375,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.32784375,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.16284375000001,"end":107.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.57534375,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.36784375,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.03409375000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.05096875000001,"end":118.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.71721875,"end":120.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.53534375000001,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.59284375000001,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.23784375,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.78596875,"end":141.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.73034375,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.28721875000002,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.31659375,"end":148.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.32284375,"end":158.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.47034375,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.25909375,"end":163.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.29659375,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.95034375,"end":170.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.62034375000002,"end":173.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.06284375,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.02034375000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.52221875,"end":179.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.63159375,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.65221875,"end":184.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.74471875,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.19159375,"end":189.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.38534375,"end":193.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.67159375,"end":195.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.84846875000002,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.88221875000002,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.26784375000003,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.02284375000002,"end":214.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.25909375,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.34721875000002,"end":220.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.22846875000002,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.69221875000002,"end":224.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.62034375000002,"end":226.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.44284375,"end":228.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.90659375,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.09596875000003,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.93096875,"end":237.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.90096875,"end":237.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.18784375,"end":246.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.33534375000002,"end":240.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.35971875,"end":245.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.16971875000002,"end":246.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.28784375,"end":252.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.42284375000003,"end":246.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.27846875000003,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.86909375000002,"end":259.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.18909375000004,"end":258.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.31534375,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.36596875000004,"end":260.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.82159375000003,"end":267.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.39471875000004,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.87096875000003,"end":271.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.53721875,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.16034375000004,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.85909375,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.80409375,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.53784375000004,"end":294.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.51221875000005,"end":297.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.50346875,"end":299.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.57471875000005,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.33784375000005,"end":306.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.72596875,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.32909375,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.48909375,"end":309.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.14284375,"end":313.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.29409375,"end":316.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.74096875000004,"end":319.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.22971875,"end":321.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.46596875,"end":321.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.22534375000004,"end":327.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.52409375,"end":330.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.39721875000004,"end":331.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.99596875000003,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":334.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.12221875,"end":334.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.13909375000003,"end":334.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.96159375,"end":340.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.24784375,"end":342.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.82971875000004,"end":345.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.20909375,"end":345.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.46221875000003,"end":349.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.49096875000004,"end":351.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.95909375,"end":357.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.04284375000003,"end":361.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.45971875000004,"end":366.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.01159375000003,"end":370.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.82159375000003,"end":368.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.03221875,"end":372.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.04909375,"end":371.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.29346875000005,"end":375.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.68096875000003,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.54159375,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.55846875000003,"end":378.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.79846875000004,"end":383.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.17346875000004,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.27846875,"end":387.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.40346875,"end":398.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.61846875000003,"end":399.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.18784375,"end":404.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.06471875000005,"end":411.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.62909375000004,"end":416.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.11346875000004,"end":425.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.21346875,"end":427.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.94721875000005,"end":430.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.76534375,"end":431.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.92971875,"end":434.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.25846875,"end":434.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.68034375,"end":434.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.96721875000003,"end":438.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.62534375,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.63784375,"end":436.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.96659375,"end":455.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.14784375000005,"end":440.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.15971875,"end":447.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.33534375000005,"end":459.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.06034375,"end":463.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.81096875000003,"end":463.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.41846875000005,"end":463.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.45221875000004,"end":463.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.77284375000005,"end":463.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.94159375000004,"end":463.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.97534375000004,"end":464.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.02596875,"end":469.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.54471875,"end":465.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.76409375000003,"end":466.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.74659375000005,"end":472.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.81784375,"end":480.51284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.17971875,"end":481.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.62659375000004,"end":481.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.71096875,"end":482.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.96409375,"end":483.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.80784375,"end":483.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.55034375,"end":486.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.09034375000005,"end":486.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.30096875000004,"end":486.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.79034375000003,"end":491.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.40971875,"end":495.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.18971875000005,"end":496.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.45534375000005,"end":500.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.10034375000004,"end":502.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.68659375000004,"end":506.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.09096875000006,"end":509.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.57159375000003,"end":522.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.7859687499999,"end":518.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.02534375,"end":522.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.97034375,"end":523.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.0378437500001,"end":523.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.38784375,"end":530.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.9440937500001,"end":536.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.8078437500001,"end":539.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.5078437500001,"end":539.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.57534375,"end":539.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.59221875,"end":539.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.60909375,"end":540.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.7609687500001,"end":540.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.3178437500001,"end":552.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.92346875,"end":562.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.9353437500001,"end":559.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.0615937499999,"end":560.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.0065937500001,"end":564.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.9640937500001,"end":564.8034687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.27,"end":32.291,"text":"主席在場委員先進列席的政府局長長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生我看到我們部長迫不及待請邱部長邱部長請謝謝部長好部長 讓你先講我們來看一下幾位委員關心的第一個議題就是今天大家看到報紙就跳起來了我的主張是先宣導再裁罰啦我們當然支持無接觸點餐但是目前我們看到的呢是說"},{"start":33.516,"end":55.061,"text":"衛福部說要禁止早前在碰食物,感覺到要先裁罰你過去有沒有用過這種在日本啊去拉麵,點個拉麵這樣按鍵,然後前方進去有沒有有沒有用過這種機器有,用過這種機器比現在一些大型的速食連鎖店簡單多了也便宜多了你支不支持我們行政院來幫助這些小店家安裝這種"},{"start":56.621,"end":73.394,"text":"取代人工點餐找零的這樣的設備 知不支持不是叫你出錢 你知不支持行政院做這個事我支持可以往這方面來 因為現在人力也是一個問題是的 所以我要說的是說過去在疫情期間 我分別諮詢過經濟部也諮詢過財政部我希望財政部應該給予租稅的寬免"},{"start":78.358,"end":99.992,"text":"願意採用餐飲店願意採用這種免接觸的點餐設備免棗磷的不用去手工接觸棗磷的如果有裝設這樣的機器這樣的小店家應該給予租稅商的快免你會支持嗎就是說如果小店家改用這種設備你會支持嗎還是你不支持這不是符合你的政策嗎"},{"start":102.073,"end":112.92,"text":"如果經濟部說那你們小店家裝這種設備我給你補助你會贊成嗎當然不是衛福部的意義介入啦應該是支持對嘛所以如果說經濟部為了配合衛福部的政策我們先宣導鼓勵經濟部給小店家這樣的補助優惠讓他裝設這樣的免接觸的點餐找零的器材"},{"start":130.712,"end":156.614,"text":"然後呢財政部也給這樣的店家給他租稅的優勉那這樣做起來是不是衛福部就很省事就不用再寄到最後端的財閥大家都皆大歡喜你同意嗎我同意好謝謝所以呢我們現在進入來現在是疫情新冠疫情大家急診篩報對不對這不用講平常沒有新冠疫情大家都覺得我們民醫代表經常受到民眾的請託關懷我們都做好我們看一下急診室的醫生怎麼講"},{"start":157.415,"end":173.004,"text":"最近這位急診醫師的投注告白他說不是教學醫院沒有住院醫累死了急診醫而且第二個這些我們每年訓練的急診醫師呢有兩成沒有去職業另外呢已經有66名已經去離職了"},{"start":174.144,"end":195.139,"text":"那現在大醫院還會支援然後呢現在呢小醫院現在也得不到大醫院的支援還有我們的這些其他的隱形工作很多日夜班的轉換有困難縱使我們把急診急護提高但是還是追不上做醫美的收入那麼包括護理師的人員也離開造成第一線醫師更累部長怎麼辦 這些事情怎麼辦"},{"start":195.939,"end":222.507,"text":"我們每一樣問題都非常積極在解決包括提高集富尤其重症急診集富我們也盡量追求更好的一個職業環境那調班各方面盡量讓更加能夠符合我想部長對這些問題都了然於胸但是有句話說 原水救不了靜火原水還是要準備對不對但是靜火在哪裡往下看這是去年的高峰啊"},{"start":223.752,"end":237.179,"text":"今年呢到現在這是週別去年的25週到達高峰今年的25週就快來了喔快來了喔所以還剩兩三週就要面對到個高峰了根據去年的經驗我們今年有辦法應對嗎"},{"start":238.36,"end":258.093,"text":"報告委員我們過去COVID-19的三年的防疫當中我們建立了分流分級的體系很好分流分級所以才不要讓那個急診當時台北市一天一萬個infected但是如果只要其中一小部分到急診急診一定老所以急診醫療發揮社區醫療發揮對社區醫療社區醫療就像是洪水來的滯洪池"},{"start":264.457,"end":290.146,"text":"不要讓洪峰一下子衝破我們的醫院的急診是不是這樣子所以我們現在一直宣導說有任何問題到不是只有宣導到急診不是只有宣導到診所啦我們在疫情之前怎麼做往下看在疫情期間我們診所是不是有特別預算支持是是不是所以呢他們診所多收治輕症不會影響到他的點子不會稀釋對不對現在我們傳染病降級了有沒有這個特別預算沒有嘛"},{"start":291.328,"end":319.148,"text":"所以診所如果說多收一些把這些洪峰吸收在診所不要讓他進入醫院但是沒有後面的支持啊怎麼辦我們有一些風險健保總額裡面有一些風險基金你還是要用健保總額嗎沒有其他的錢可以用嗎我問你我們這次下一個我們過去我們今年的中央政府總預算被藍白亂刪這些有沒有包含刪到我們這些做我們救命前的這些預算有沒有"},{"start":321.277,"end":349.432,"text":"是不是被刪了之後還有辦法挹注我們健保來幫助我們度過疫情的難關嗎 有沒有健保是自己他本身的總部是嗎 那我們預算刪了什麼大概是在業務會26億主要是業務會部長現在行政院已經釋出善意未來如果朝野有這樣共識我們事實上可以透過追加預算的方式解決從中央到地方遇到因為藍白亂三預算的困境你知不知此"},{"start":350.56,"end":375.711,"text":"如果有這個機會你支不支持如果有這個機會我們站在人品的健康的立場當然是希望能夠補充那如果有機會追加預算要不要把過去疫情期間透過這樣的方式讓診所來幫忙吸納洪峰的這樣的作為也考慮進去會不會考慮這是一個很好的方向你說很好就可以了 往下看所以接下來我們談一個就是健康台灣深耕計畫這是不是賴總統的政策"},{"start":379.665,"end":396.454,"text":"這個會很重要的一個政策第一年變成60億嘛對不對是的好往下看但是我們看申請模式你們分成ABCD是的對不對有醫療機構有社區醫療群有專科醫師學會還有工會對不對是的這裡面的大概是以A12 A3這樣為主來提供是不是這樣"},{"start":397.455,"end":411.034,"text":"以這個前A向為大宗嘛A向比較大宗對好那我們來看一下A向的情況怎麼樣來我們屏東啊在A向的醫療機構當中我們地區有15家區醫院4家沒有準醫學中心也沒有醫中"},{"start":411.67,"end":429.359,"text":"但是台北市有八個醫中一個準醫中十家區醫院跟地區醫院如果按照我們現在要做健康台灣的計畫我們這個資源顯然的對於我們偏鄉治療機構照少的比較不足因為你們的審查原則標準有沒有辦法確保在不同級數的"},{"start":430.816,"end":452.655,"text":"地區跟類型都可以得到總經費當中適當比例的補助當然可以因為我們ABC就是都考慮到當時的狀況其實醫學中心要接這個他必須要去做好一個垂直整合也是非常重要的 辛苦那我們很多 如果以屏東來講這四家區醫院都可以"},{"start":453.716,"end":479.849,"text":"都可以主情來申請我往上跳 來世家學院怎麼做我們看非醫學中心可以獨立申請或者用工會來整合該縣市的醫療機構其他A2嘛A2就是其他醫療政策也可以整合我看過你們的資料往下跳其實我要說的是說這是一個不同的六都跟非都各地方的一個差別就算是醫師工會我們屏東醫師工會的量能也不能跟高雄跟其他六都來比你了解嗎所以才需要申更計畫"},{"start":484.012,"end":509.311,"text":"更弱勢的縣市應該更需要這些來挹注所以我這邊就要跟您 如果要確保我們看下一頁所以你看看我們撰寫計畫 檢報 呈現 審查機制這些其實規模越大的醫療機構它越有能力去因應它的分工系但是我們醫療機構缺乏了我們人力無法負荷有沒有辦法可以額外的協助分量級給予額外的支持可不可以"},{"start":509.611,"end":537.87,"text":"好 我們有分區啦所以大概不會忽視到弱勢的區那如果需要額外的協助在公平的審查之下我們當然是樂於協助我其實說不是只有公平的審查在撰寫計畫的這個過程那麼額外的給一些人力或一些能量其實我在這邊要跟全國的醫療院所講不要覺得自己沒有能力寫你只要寫出你的特色我們這個不是在申請國科會計畫啦"},{"start":539.711,"end":562.993,"text":"OK 了解 不用寫得很整齊我做了三十年的國二計畫每次都要寫很多這個你只要提出你的idea你的重點 你的當地的重要性其實就會受到重視好 我們屏東的議事公會我們屏東的議事公會就給部長拍拍手希望你要說到做到我們要把機會提出來你要給我們公平的機會讓我們有適當的我們一向很重視屏東的議事公會好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162284","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162284","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564160f66e01cd374f6bbacbcf4f939c22c46063d171e8badfa11aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:03:09 - 11:12:52","影片長度":"00:09:43","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:03:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:12:52+08:00","duration":583,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.384093750000002,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.771593750000001,"end":15.387218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.73721875,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.00284375,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.15034375,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.44534375,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.246593750000002,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.39409375,"end":65.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.35409375,"end":86.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.30846875,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.07159375,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.45471875000001,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.95659375000001,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.64284375000001,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.22909375,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.97159375000001,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.50846875000002,"end":132.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.52909375000002,"end":133.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.67221875,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.20784375,"end":140.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.96284375000002,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.19034375,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.49784375000002,"end":148.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.27784375000002,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.11721875,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.17596875,"end":153.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.46221875,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.12721875,"end":168.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.77221875,"end":173.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.89409375000002,"end":174.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.07534375,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.34471875,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.25596875000002,"end":186.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.60096875000002,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.59221875,"end":190.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.51596875,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.46909375,"end":202.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.85221875000002,"end":198.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.86909375000002,"end":199.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.05471875,"end":199.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.37534375,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.12596875000003,"end":202.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.37909375,"end":202.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.39596875,"end":202.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.46346875,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.56034375000002,"end":233.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.00596875000002,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.17659375000002,"end":229.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.96096875,"end":239.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.97721875000002,"end":237.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.25534375,"end":246.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.34284375000001,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.73909375000002,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.46721875000003,"end":259.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.34346875,"end":278.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.69221875,"end":285.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.99971875,"end":284.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.47159375,"end":291.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.58471875000004,"end":291.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.42409375,"end":292.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.44096875,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.55471875,"end":304.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.29971875,"end":306.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.63284375,"end":308.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.66659375,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.21909375,"end":308.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.64096875,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.80971875,"end":308.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.86034375,"end":308.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.92784375,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.08346875,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.10034375000004,"end":312.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.11721875,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.13409375000003,"end":312.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.18471875,"end":312.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.20159375000003,"end":312.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.28596875,"end":312.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.31971875,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.65721875,"end":313.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.80034375,"end":334.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.62159375000005,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.17721875,"end":337.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.18534375,"end":336.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.41284375000004,"end":360.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.16284375000004,"end":344.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.90096875,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.03596875,"end":346.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.23846875000004,"end":346.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.95471875000004,"end":356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.02596875,"end":358.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.42596875000004,"end":367.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.88909375000003,"end":376.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.47846875000005,"end":384.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.28721875,"end":389.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.86034375,"end":391.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.40846875,"end":414.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.00409375000004,"end":419.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":420.20159375000003,"end":421.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.01159375000003,"end":422.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":422.37846875,"end":445.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.93596875000003,"end":450.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":449.12534375,"end":449.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":451.16721875,"end":451.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.90971875,"end":471.23159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.63659375000003,"end":477.98159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":478.53846875000005,"end":485.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.92159375000006,"end":500.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.02534375000005,"end":495.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.04221875,"end":496.12221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":500.56034375,"end":502.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.72471875,"end":504.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":504.69471875000005,"end":507.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":508.17096875000004,"end":508.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.11596875000004,"end":513.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.6047187500001,"end":522.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.3584687499999,"end":532.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.6228437500001,"end":539.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.1615937500001,"end":543.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":541.1784687500001,"end":541.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.62534375,"end":545.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":543.6928437500001,"end":544.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.5659687500001,"end":547.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.47284375,"end":566.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.9128437500001,"end":568.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.5790937500001,"end":573.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":572.1440937500001,"end":576.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.5359687499999,"end":582.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":578.7422187500001,"end":579.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":580.37909375,"end":582.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":582.62346875,"end":582.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.6909687500001,"end":582.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":582.72471875,"end":582.9778437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":8.46,"text":"好 謝謝主席請衛福部邱部長還有我們審計部邱部長陳審計長陳審計長還有我們這個主計處主計處那個陳淑芝"},{"start":17.024,"end":44.101,"text":"陳副主席長副主席長是嗎OK好好OK謝謝那個邱部長好是我想部長疫情再起政府號稱防疫戰備充足啦我想剛才很多委員大家都對不管是快篩試劑啦或者是疫苗你剛才講說疫苗是充足的啦藥品那個沉默中足那個診所協會的理事長講說這個"},{"start":45.842,"end":64.636,"text":"防疫抗病毒的藥物也是不足結果我們看到的似乎是口號超前但是部署落後所以部長你剛才講說我們會超前部署但是我們看到現在的情況感覺整個防疫的能量是不夠充裕的"},{"start":65.436,"end":94.335,"text":"那賴總統講說防疫能量充裕國人無需驚慌當然這個是安慰國人啦但是我們實際看到的情況在我們這個三個禮拜部長你自己也講你還出來道歉你說又針對這個快篩撲破延遲基層缺藥缺快篩你也道歉了啦所以我在這邊我要想請問的就是說疾管署你們到底是什麼時候有掌握到疫情升溫的徵兆"},{"start":96.497,"end":100.26,"text":"上次我在媒體接受訪問的時候我只是說明說因為快篩因為你又要工廠做又要鋪貨你平常沒有用的時候要工廠做"},{"start":117.455,"end":128.191,"text":"存貨下來也是很麻煩所以這個過程當中其實我們不管食藥署 機關署是非常努力啦我只是說站在同理心的立場說等幾天 馬上會報所以六月中以後我們所以你有道歉嗎我沒有說道歉啦"},{"start":135.18,"end":142.226,"text":"那是媒體看的啊你關心國人的健康你這樣是對的我是很關心國人只要一點點延遲一分一秒我們就覺得需要努力了你這樣的回答是沒有問題我們在緊肯定啦你有在積極的希望趕快的把它補起來我補充一下我們的藥物跟疫苗是絕對沒有問題"},{"start":160.563,"end":177.929,"text":"那快篩現在在六月底 六月中以後會散量到預期就會量的兩倍就會足夠嘛應該都 不能用快篩一定夠現在重要是讓醫院診所看怎麼樣能夠發揮最大的功能因為會有這種疑慮就是快篩會大家一直會認為說這個快篩的不足不夠因為大家都買不到"},{"start":188.669,"end":200.26,"text":"大家都在基層買不到啊所以你預估是在六月中旬就一定有啊大家不會再空跑藥局了是跟委員報告其實快篩我們從"},{"start":206.225,"end":222.638,"text":"5月20號統計到昨天為止家用快餐的部分已經工廠都製造超過91萬劑那也撲貨出去到82萬劑那目前14個通路包含連鎖藥局超商藥妝店等他們目前都是全力在撲貨那會有一些順序差別是因為"},{"start":223.939,"end":243.231,"text":"這些製劑商基本上每天生產完這物流就會帶走但是訂單下的時間不一樣所以這一波事實上是連鎖藥局的訂單下的比較早不是啦我的重點是說你大概六月大概什麼時候就缺因為到六月中旬 人們去買就不會買不到是跟委員報告到六月中旬家用快篩的總共生產量會超過210萬劑那這個已經超過在疾管署預估家用快篩需要的你知道生產量這麼多你整個鋪貨的流程你這個SOP都有建議嗎"},{"start":250.916,"end":267.699,"text":"所以目前鋪貨大概只會差十萬劑的量左右就是生產的多然後鋪貨大概會晚一天就差十萬劑這樣所以也會有大概兩百萬劑鋪到各市場上那我們今天其實昨天有我們再去抽測目前國內大概這些連鎖藥局跟超商"},{"start":268.44,"end":282.953,"text":"超過一半以上其實都有存貨那民眾會去有的時候買不到是因為他可能進了貨那之前的民眾他已經買走了所以他再去的時候他就必須等下一波的進貨所以你預估大概在我還是回到了六月中旬應該就沒有問題了應該全部都會到貨接下來請那個我們主席沈記長沈記長請"},{"start":294.14,"end":307.192,"text":"市長,對於這一波的整個疫情升溫,好像有廠商趁機來搭便車,造成政策操作的空間與利益的輸送,你有調查到嗎?有沒有這種情況發生?這一波我們還沒有進行調查。"},{"start":312.248,"end":336.311,"text":"還沒有調查 還沒有啟動飢餓機制對 因為這一波是最近起來嘛 是那我們的損失有很多事要做所以我們剛剛查完那個特別結算的一些規定所以這一波 因為大家剛剛查完回來還沒有開始啟動嘛 但是我還是要建議你喔"},{"start":337.532,"end":347.541,"text":"我們希望說整個這個防疫的整個這個程序我們不要有人趁機去撈一筆這發生國難財所以請陳議長就是對針對快篩藥物採購的程序啟動專案的集合這個集合機制還是要趕快啟動啦好 趙委員我們先異訪再請那個我們"},{"start":361.654,"end":388.211,"text":"主計處我也好我想這一次的地方就是剛才部長也講說我們中央這一次整個防疫的預算是足夠的中央是足夠的但是地方我們現在看到因為這一次行政院統三以列為法律支出的地方性的地方的一般性補助款地方首長昨天也集體到行政院來訴願"},{"start":389.972,"end":419.111,"text":"所以我想了解說中央這個主席處這一次你統三地方的一般性補助款地方很多都反映說這個防疫的預算地方的防疫的預算會受到影響會受到影響所以主席總處你這一次統三地方的一般性補助款你們是否有事前去了解到說你這個是否會影響地方的一個防疫的一個預算"},{"start":420.272,"end":444.352,"text":"我們有做過評估嗎我們中央防疫預算也是先以緩計及那地方基本上往年的模式也是都有障礙防救法以緩計及那這一次所謂刪減一般性補助款概念上對應地方是他的稅路所以對地方來講是影響他的資金調度那這個部分資金調度的部分我們會來協助"},{"start":446.033,"end":471.113,"text":"所以你認為這個不會衝擊到地方的防疫的一個防疫的資源都不會 都不會這是你的說法 因為地方確實有挨挨叫喔你講說尤其衛生局整個一個地方衛生局整個一個防疫的一個預算因為這一次的一般性補助官被刪除而影響到他們這個防疫預算的一個準備啦的籌措啦"},{"start":471.873,"end":500.349,"text":"這些資金有受影響喔所以你事前完全沒有去跟這些地方政府來做一個溝通一般性補助款的部分我們有先行在3月發函先用控留的方式發函我知道 但是我是說你們在評估的時候根本就沒有評估到說是不是未來可能疫情會起來啊疫情起來你這個地方的這個防疫預算會不會受影響所以你無差別的去這個統三整個一般性補助啊"},{"start":501.591,"end":507.6,"text":"已經影響到整個包含防疫預算有評估地方政府有資金調度的能力"},{"start":510.596,"end":525.642,"text":"我想最後還是要問主席總書因為我想昨天整個六都或者其他縣市我們很多的首長已經到行政院提訴員昨天主席長也講了目前針對114年度的一般性補助款的3.636億會提出辦法解決"},{"start":532.685,"end":539.406,"text":"主計總署後續將聽取各方意見來研議相關的方案請問這相關的方案是什麼"},{"start":541.189,"end":568.25,"text":"你要連相關方案已經演繹出來沒有現在很緊急不要再拖了目前有提到的是追加預算所以你的方案就是追加預算所以我最後一個問題就是你現在你要用追加預算方式但是你追加預算的方式是你一個相關的方案你是不是在這個追加預算這個方案演繹的過程中你應該盡速的補足我們地方的一般性補助款你不應該去停止執行"},{"start":569.639,"end":581.149,"text":"我想這個請主席總書你真的要去好好地思考一下因為類似苗栗這種資金調度困難了我們會來協助不是現在不是那種資金你現在你既然要研議相關方案嘛就趕快補足嘛 好不好好 謝謝另外一個資訊"}]}},{"id":"162293","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162293","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5640a272b24345c7a36bbacbcf4f939c22c46063d171e8badfa187439edd53ab6c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:31:34 - 11:41:26","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:31:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:41:26+08:00","duration":592,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.16596875,"end":1.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.93784375,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.810343750000001,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.497218750000002,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.78409375,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.43284375,"end":60.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.83159375,"end":64.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.57346875,"end":66.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.33284375000001,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.36659375,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":68.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.34534375,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.44221875000001,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.75409375000001,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.86346875000001,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.20096875,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.44096875000001,"end":81.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.45784375000001,"end":76.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.70596875000001,"end":82.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.58346875000001,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.73534375,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.34284375,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.36784375,"end":90.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.41346875,"end":96.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.23534375000001,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":102.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.59346875,"end":100.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.83346875000001,"end":102.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.85034375000001,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.02721875,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.42346875000001,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.06471875000001,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.12346875,"end":112.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.99221875,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.09346875000001,"end":113.11034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.11034375000001,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.26221875,"end":113.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.38034375000001,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.39721875000001,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.25784375,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.27471875,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.94971875,"end":120.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.83909375,"end":147.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.70409375,"end":149.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.48846875,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.24721875,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.16659375,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.24096875,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.66846875000002,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.76034375,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.40534375000001,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.80471875,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.28534375,"end":210.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.08659375000002,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.31846875000002,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.33909375000002,"end":216.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.16596875000002,"end":218.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.24596875,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.68034375000002,"end":219.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.06846875000002,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.10221875000002,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.22034375,"end":219.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.77721875,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.79409375,"end":220.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.14409375000002,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.13096875000002,"end":225.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.02096875,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.24409375000002,"end":229.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.99471875,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.17596875,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.22596875000002,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.19971875000002,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.93784375,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.60409375,"end":253.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.78096875000003,"end":250.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.68346875,"end":277.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.36721875,"end":286.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.05034375,"end":282.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.26909375,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.50096875,"end":288.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.94784375,"end":295.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.97659375,"end":300.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.56284375,"end":296.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.55346875000004,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.32971875000004,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.37471875,"end":329.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.50971875000005,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.82596875,"end":313.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.25534375,"end":319.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.33971875000003,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.90034375000005,"end":325.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.07659375000003,"end":332.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.48971875,"end":336.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.58596875,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.15034375000005,"end":356.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.51971875000004,"end":357.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.98346875000004,"end":360.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.34596875,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.96534375000005,"end":369.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.46721875000003,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.50909375000003,"end":371.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.02784375000005,"end":379.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.36409375000005,"end":379.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.90409375,"end":380.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.64659375,"end":380.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.28784375000004,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.33846875,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.97534375000004,"end":388.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.61159375,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.78784375000004,"end":398.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.17096875000004,"end":400.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.82471875000005,"end":403.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.85409375,"end":417.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.18096875000003,"end":419.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.25659375000004,"end":437.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.34721875,"end":433.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.93721875000006,"end":442.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.21909375,"end":443.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.11346875000004,"end":449.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.54721875,"end":450.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.63159375000004,"end":454.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.04471875,"end":452.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.48721875,"end":470.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.16409375,"end":473.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.03721875,"end":474.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.60659375000006,"end":475.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.02846875000006,"end":479.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.41221875,"end":477.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.53409375,"end":486.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.24159375000005,"end":496.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.03346875000005,"end":499.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.69971875000005,"end":528.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.90909375,"end":510.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":521.5190937500001,"end":521.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.90659375,"end":526.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.21846875,"end":539.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.6384687500001,"end":544.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.82409375,"end":541.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.2922187500001,"end":560.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.02971875,"end":548.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.56971875,"end":548.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.3484687499999,"end":570.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.91221875,"end":573.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.15659375,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.02534375,"end":576.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":576.2278437500001,"end":580.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.5990937500001,"end":578.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.7209687500001,"end":591.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.3015937499999,"end":591.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.29721875,"end":591.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.4153437500001,"end":592.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.71909375,"end":592.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.9509687500001,"end":592.9678437499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.956,"end":2.54,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請邱部長邱部長"},{"start":7.833,"end":35.473,"text":"委員好部長好這個難得可以在我們財政委員會可以有時間留那麼久我第一屆進來的時候就到財政委會當委員所以這裡很熟悉很熟悉那請教一下部長因為今天我看到有報紙的頭版有提到是說我們食藥署昨天有發布食品良好衛生規範準則那明定的攤販不能碰完前再處理食物那同時也把外送納管在內"},{"start":36.494,"end":59.451,"text":"然後呢這個當然有一些正反的意見當然對民眾來講如果那個食品安全衛生是最重要的但是對於這些小吃業者來講會覺得說這個規範似乎有點老民尤其現在很多是一個人的或是兩個人的像遇到這種情況之下我想先請問一下這個規範準則預告多久了我請王副市長是113年預告的"},{"start":65.674,"end":69.819,"text":"那預告時間有沒有什麼樣的一個反應大家有不同的意見有關於這個小吃攤洗手這個部分其實在我們預告期間並沒有收到任何回應"},{"start":81.769,"end":106.188,"text":"蛤 真的是大家不知道有這個預告嗎因為這個一定會有人反映嘛我就說大家不知道有這個預告是不是但怎麼會沒有人反映呢針對這一點報告委員我們剛剛有確實在回顧一下確實在這個部分上是沒有收到回應沒有收到回應所以你們這個預告是公告告你的網站就對了是我們是從中心隊員的預告中心去做預告所以所謂什麼攤商協會什麼他們知道這個預告嗎我們會同時會通知工協會"},{"start":110.148,"end":125.11,"text":"通知哪裡通知相關的工協會都會通知都有通知就對了所以理論上各個類似這一種什麼攤販攤商協會的他們都知道這一個規定報告委員攤商協會是不是確實知道這個可能我們要查詢一下再跟委員回覆"},{"start":125.53,"end":154.367,"text":"但是跟委員報告就是有關這個部分的GHP我們現在雖然昨天正式公告實施但是在執行面就像剛剛部長所提的一定是先輔導優先那另外跟委員補充即便是輔導期過了之後在正式實施衛生局如果查到攤商有相關違反的部分因為他是GHP的規定所以他是要優先讓他改正他只要能夠改正並不會受罰好那我先問一下輔導期有多久報委員這個應該是輔導到大家都有辦法能夠配合辦理"},{"start":155.47,"end":172.414,"text":"輔導到大家都有能夠配合辦理對就是因為目前各攤商的回應是說就像剛剛委員所提的藝人的攤商可能在同時又要做這個料理食材又要收錢這方面很困難那事實上我們也會去推廣說當然這個手部保持清潔很重要"},{"start":172.774,"end":194.76,"text":"那也會建議攤商是不是嘗試使用這個用食物的食夾來夾取食物這樣他的手就不會直接接觸食材或者是戴手套脫手套或者是像其實目前也有一些小的攤商他在找零的部分他是讓客人自請找零這個都有所以我們會再去找相關的工協會來討論看怎麼樣來有一個好的一個做法來讓各個攤商都能夠去能夠達成我們在這個目標"},{"start":196.445,"end":225.539,"text":"我覺得你們真的要去做一個宣導啦因為這個是對於這一個攤商來講很多是一人或兩個人的那你可以跟我示範講解一下如果一個人的攤商他要怎麼去做處理咧剛剛跟委員報告就是說比如說一個是處理食材的時候比如說他準備好這一個手搖飲好了是然後咧然後他要收錢的時候他就脫掉手套然後收錢所以這是一種方式"},{"start":226.107,"end":242.084,"text":"或者是像比如說我今天要油炸甜甜圈啊這些東西我在炸的時候我是可以用這個夾子去做相關的處置就是不會讓我的手跟這個食材直接接觸或者有些我們也看過有些技術蠻厲害的這些攤商的師傅他可以一手處理食材一手收錢"},{"start":243.24,"end":263.012,"text":"可以這樣子嗎只要那隻手不要同時碰到食物跟錢就可以了就是手部要保持清潔衛生不要直接接觸錢所以接觸後如果大家能夠這個出發點是好的啦對於這個消費者來講他當然希望說這個我們拿到的食物是乾淨的那對於這個攤商來講我就是說因為現在就是很多是一個人兩個人的"},{"start":263.932,"end":277.643,"text":"它很難啊就是說會同時這一個你說這一個接觸到食材之後呢然後比如說除了一個手套或是說間隔多久然後才能碰到食物那這樣才是符合規定的"},{"start":278.607,"end":300.695,"text":"包委員就是不要摸了錢以後再摸起來不要連續性的動作嗎他中間如果有經過一個清潔的程序洗過手以後那這個程序怎麼走我們會再找這些相關協會或者直接找我們攤商的夥伴一起來我覺得要加強宣導啦真的要加強宣導那就像是副署長嘛就是說宣導期有多久"},{"start":302.383,"end":322.552,"text":"報告委員我們目前沒有去強調這個宣導期就是目標當然就是希望所有的業者都能配合一起共同維護食安好那就是我請教一下部長我們的宣導期就是到大家都能夠來適應這樣的作法因為你們這個也不是說而且這是一個應該是一個比較保持食安的一個方向"},{"start":323.572,"end":346.761,"text":"有一個方向在那邊,大家一起來努力,就會讓國家,也許在食安方面可以更進步這其實方向我支持,但我也希望說福島到大家都可以來試驗來做對啊,因為你說這個預告人時間超過一年,結果沒有任何的反應,我是覺得說那一定是大家不知道這件事情你看今天如果報紙寫出來之後,大家一定知道這件事情,一定會有不同的反應出來啦"},{"start":347.341,"end":355.713,"text":"至少我們自己有覺得說那這樣子這個政策方向是好的但是這個手段可能在這個過程當中會有點擾民啊"},{"start":358.155,"end":380.479,"text":"我們會輔導 往這個方向那所以也不是說這個抓到 就是輔導期輔導期就是說你抓到之後也不會馬上發言就對了跟他建議跟他宣導教育這樣子的 先做這樣子那你們有沒有一些相關的一些文宣物資出來啊好 我們會來研議 跟相關的工協會來研議那現在還沒有吧一起努力現在還沒有"},{"start":381.565,"end":397.99,"text":"那多久的時間可以報告委員 這個我們會有回覆因為我不是負責食品的這個部分所以我會確認以後跟委員報告好 那問一下這個部長現在COVID-19疫情有上升的這個情況那我請問一下這個變化連假的這幾天這個疫情還有在上升嗎"},{"start":403.885,"end":425.084,"text":"有關重症的部分目前因為它屬於落後指標所以目前還在上升至於急診的部分目前上升的幅度有比較緩一點還是在上升但是我們會密切監視那你們預期的高峰期是到哪時候原來預期大概是在6月底、7月初"},{"start":425.965,"end":427.426,"text":"疫苗接種率太低了?"},{"start":444.424,"end":470.246,"text":"對就是說有關新冠疫苗因為它是一個在疫情期間大家很多人接種很多劑那也有很多人感染過所以導致一些民眾甚至醫師他們都不認為說還需要再打啦但事實上就是說這個疫苗事實上對於一些比較屬於65歲以上或是高危險族群還是需要的這個部分那一般的民眾如果你有接種的話也是會對於預防重症還是有重要性"},{"start":471.189,"end":482.04,"text":"那現在這一個有關於這一個疫苗還是免費的嗎目前還是公費沒有問題還是公費沒有問題供應商還是沒有問題就對了好那我再請教一下現在之前有人在說這個快篩試劑不夠的問題有這個問題嗎"},{"start":488.288,"end":511.454,"text":"快餐四季如果是家用的話的確我們疫情起來我們會要求我們就要求廠商趕快來做然後一直跟通路包括連鎖藥局四大超商通路一直在鋪貨那到六月剛開始的確會可能沒有辦法百分之百買得到那目前我相信是大概一半那到六月中我們"},{"start":513.775,"end":539.202,"text":"產貨會比那個疾管署一級的量需求量的兩倍以上所以那個時候在我想每一天都在努力鋪路所以是六月中六月中量一定超過需求的兩倍所以那個是應該大家都在就近就可以來找那我想請問一下現在使用快篩的這一個時間點因為一定是跟高峰期的那時候不一樣嘛所以大概什麼樣的時間點上會需要一般人也需要使用到快篩"},{"start":540.683,"end":559.312,"text":"因為我們以前使用快勝有可能是說因為我醫療我用醫療來講我也帶過醫師公會前面會開過一百次的全國防疫會議所以大概知道現在的專家也有提議說真的是比較可能會重症的才塞"},{"start":560.453,"end":582.886,"text":"那我覺得這個各種專家都有他不同的意見那我認為民眾如果覺得不要去囤貨但是如果覺得需要篩還是可以篩這樣子以前篩是有比如說他可以請假啦或是說怎麼樣的現在沒有了嘛就是說一般人現在因為有一個好處啦因為篩了以後他把"},{"start":583.788,"end":590.487,"text":"這個數據弄好也許給醫師去看醫師可以做一個更快的判斷也有幫助啦OK 謝謝李委員"}]}},{"id":"16737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16737","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e1c393f606ce94321d659d651327d024bfdab1a38f0d348c0ddc7a81679bb1b0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:41:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T13:01:00+08:00","duration":11980,"影片長度":"03:19:40","委員發言時間":"09:41:20 - 13:01:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1156.4409687500001,"end":1157.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1159.1409687500002,"end":1159.3097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1162.0772187500002,"end":1164.9290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1165.4522187500002,"end":1168.0340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1168.7259687500002,"end":1171.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1171.4934687500001,"end":1173.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1173.70409375,"end":1174.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1174.0247187500001,"end":1175.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1175.64471875,"end":1175.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1176.5728437500002,"end":1187.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1187.62596875,"end":1192.3172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1192.82346875,"end":1203.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1204.75409375,"end":1209.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1210.37346875,"end":1223.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1224.17721875,"end":1229.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1229.8809687500002,"end":1235.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1235.31471875,"end":1236.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1237.42409375,"end":1242.3853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1242.5372187500002,"end":1244.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1245.2034687500002,"end":1250.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1250.8228437500002,"end":1251.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1252.13909375,"end":1256.7628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1257.06659375,"end":1260.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1260.99846875,"end":1266.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1266.49971875,"end":1274.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1275.08909375,"end":1278.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1279.0884687500002,"end":1284.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1284.65721875,"end":1292.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1294.8665937500002,"end":1308.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1308.43409375,"end":1320.3140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1320.5840937500002,"end":1322.8453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1323.3515937500001,"end":1334.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1335.3328437500002,"end":1357.5909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1357.89471875,"end":1364.5940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1364.67846875,"end":1365.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1366.23096875,"end":1372.2047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1372.52534375,"end":1374.9890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1375.4615937500002,"end":1378.9715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1379.3597187500002,"end":1381.6040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1381.84034375,"end":1386.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1386.88596875,"end":1391.8809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1392.23534375,"end":1394.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1394.9690937500002,"end":1401.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1401.2972187500002,"end":1402.5965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1402.61346875,"end":1404.6722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1406.0559687500001,"end":1406.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1407.3215937500001,"end":1411.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1412.4515937500003,"end":1413.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1414.6959687500002,"end":1417.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1418.6109687500002,"end":1434.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1435.0134687500001,"end":1435.7559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1437.1734687500002,"end":1441.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1442.2528437500002,"end":1444.1934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1445.7459687500002,"end":1447.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1449.01971875,"end":1451.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1452.5297187500003,"end":1454.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1455.9047187500003,"end":1457.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1458.73971875,"end":1460.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1461.97971875,"end":1463.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1466.2997187500002,"end":1468.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1470.26534375,"end":1472.1553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1472.3240937500002,"end":1473.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1474.6865937500002,"end":1477.7915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1478.41596875,"end":1479.3778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1481.26784375,"end":1483.5965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1485.2334687500002,"end":1487.9672187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1488.5915937500001,"end":1489.1822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1490.2959687500002,"end":1490.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1492.4053437500002,"end":1495.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1495.6790937500002,"end":1501.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1501.6865937500002,"end":1502.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1502.9522187500002,"end":1505.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1506.0234687500001,"end":1508.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1508.5040937500003,"end":1512.2840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1512.8578437500003,"end":1515.0853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1515.5072187500002,"end":1518.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1518.4772187500002,"end":1523.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1524.0290937500001,"end":1526.3072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1534.0865937500002,"end":1548.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1548.8522187500002,"end":1556.5472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1556.9690937500002,"end":1557.6947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1557.9478437500002,"end":1570.7728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1571.39721875,"end":1579.6322187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1580.3072187500002,"end":1588.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1589.3522187500002,"end":1606.0753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1606.2272187500002,"end":1622.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1622.3934687500002,"end":1636.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1637.0915937500001,"end":1687.8853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1688.5940937500002,"end":1714.7503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1715.0203437500002,"end":1736.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1736.62034375,"end":1754.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1754.5922187500003,"end":1757.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1757.5115937500002,"end":1787.1609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1787.7178437500002,"end":1789.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1789.7259687500002,"end":1791.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1791.90284375,"end":1800.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1800.6778437500002,"end":1803.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1804.3059687500001,"end":1826.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1827.1040937500002,"end":1827.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1829.58471875,"end":1831.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1831.9134687500002,"end":1832.6222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1833.3309687500002,"end":1835.7440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1846.86471875,"end":1846.9490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1846.9659687500002,"end":1847.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1849.96971875,"end":1876.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1877.0203437500002,"end":1940.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1940.3184687500002,"end":1952.5359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1952.7047187500002,"end":1987.8722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1988.4459687500002,"end":2007.5315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2008.0547187500001,"end":2009.9953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2010.2653437500003,"end":2021.3184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2021.5547187500001,"end":2032.8440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2033.0128437500002,"end":2042.4797187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2043.5765937500003,"end":2047.5253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2048.04846875,"end":2049.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2050.37721875,"end":2051.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2052.06471875,"end":2052.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2052.90846875,"end":2053.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2054.3428437500006,"end":2055.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2057.5322187500005,"end":2059.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2060.1140937500004,"end":2061.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2062.3584687500006,"end":2066.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2066.5772187500006,"end":2067.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2067.4715937500005,"end":2067.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2068.0790937500005,"end":2069.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2070.03659375,"end":2072.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2072.68596875,"end":2074.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2075.40284375,"end":2077.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2078.96346875,"end":2079.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2080.1953437500006,"end":2080.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2081.24159375,"end":2084.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2098.9434687500006,"end":2100.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2101.6940937500003,"end":2104.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2104.39409375,"end":2109.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2110.11471875,"end":2112.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2113.3209687500002,"end":2113.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2114.5359687500004,"end":2115.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2116.56096875,"end":2119.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2120.17221875,"end":2120.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2121.2184687500003,"end":2122.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2122.29846875,"end":2124.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2124.44159375,"end":2126.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2127.3272187500006,"end":2129.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2129.3522187500002,"end":2130.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2130.41534375,"end":2134.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2134.75221875,"end":2135.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2136.37221875,"end":2137.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2137.94159375,"end":2140.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2140.91159375,"end":2141.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2141.5359687500004,"end":2175.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2176.0622187500003,"end":2195.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2195.9747187500006,"end":2196.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2197.7803437500006,"end":2201.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2201.3747187500003,"end":2202.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2202.85971875,"end":2211.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2211.6178437500002,"end":2211.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2211.9890937500004,"end":2215.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2215.26284375,"end":2216.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2216.91659375,"end":2222.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2223.3290937500005,"end":2223.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2223.34596875,"end":2223.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2223.6834687500004,"end":2223.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2223.6834687500004,"end":2224.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2223.97034375,"end":2229.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2230.33221875,"end":2231.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2232.2390937500004,"end":2235.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2234.7197187500005,"end":2247.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2247.40971875,"end":2286.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2286.13784375,"end":2286.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2287.11659375,"end":2288.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2288.0615937500006,"end":2289.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2288.24721875,"end":2289.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2290.01909375,"end":2305.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2305.5947187500005,"end":2305.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2305.7634687500004,"end":2313.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2313.94784375,"end":2314.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2314.3190937500003,"end":2325.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2325.01784375,"end":2325.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2325.20346875,"end":2337.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2325.22034375,"end":2325.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2334.23159375,"end":2334.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2337.38721875,"end":2337.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2337.57284375,"end":2344.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2344.77846875,"end":2354.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2354.14409375,"end":2354.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2355.4434687500006,"end":2358.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2358.8015937500004,"end":2365.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2365.65284375,"end":2368.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2368.16721875,"end":2400.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2371.35659375,"end":2372.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2378.79846875,"end":2379.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2389.75034375,"end":2390.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2390.96534375,"end":2391.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2391.7584687500002,"end":2391.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2392.83846875,"end":2392.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2392.9734687500004,"end":2393.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2393.37846875,"end":2393.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2400.6347187500005,"end":2421.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2403.3347187500003,"end":2408.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2421.62721875,"end":2421.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2421.99846875,"end":2424.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2425.4578437500004,"end":2429.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2427.43221875,"end":2437.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2433.69284375,"end":2434.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2438.01284375,"end":2488.3340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2488.9753437500003,"end":2490.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2491.01721875,"end":2516.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2516.49846875,"end":2517.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2517.71346875,"end":2526.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2524.51409375,"end":2527.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2527.4334687500004,"end":2531.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2531.2303437500004,"end":2534.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2531.4665937500004,"end":2531.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2531.5340937500005,"end":2531.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2533.18784375,"end":2544.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2535.0778437500003,"end":2535.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2543.75159375,"end":2544.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2544.20721875,"end":2553.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2553.99471875,"end":2572.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2556.4247187500005,"end":2556.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2572.00034375,"end":2588.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2587.5084687500002,"end":2587.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2588.7740937500002,"end":2593.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2593.56659375,"end":2600.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2600.56971875,"end":2610.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2609.1590937500005,"end":2609.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2611.1503437500005,"end":2624.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2624.2115937500002,"end":2626.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2626.9284687500003,"end":2627.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2627.09721875,"end":2628.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2627.14784375,"end":2627.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2627.99159375,"end":2628.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2629.08846875,"end":2629.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2629.1053437500004,"end":2631.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2639.9053437500006,"end":2641.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2641.98096875,"end":2642.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2647.75221875,"end":2648.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2648.54534375,"end":2648.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2648.5622187500003,"end":2648.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2648.96721875,"end":2649.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2649.03471875,"end":2649.7940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2650.16534375,"end":2650.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2651.73471875,"end":2653.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2653.3884687500004,"end":2653.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2654.1815937500005,"end":2655.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2656.4765937500006,"end":2659.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2659.81784375,"end":2660.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2660.40846875,"end":2661.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2661.3365937500002,"end":2663.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2665.1503437500005,"end":2665.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2665.8759687500005,"end":2667.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2667.6815937500005,"end":2669.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2669.7740937500002,"end":2673.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2673.18284375,"end":2675.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2678.19471875,"end":2678.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2679.3084687500004,"end":2681.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2682.0253437500005,"end":2684.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2685.48471875,"end":2685.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2685.50159375,"end":2686.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2687.00346875,"end":2687.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2688.1172187500006,"end":2690.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2690.6315937500003,"end":2691.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2691.2897187500002,"end":2691.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2691.39096875,"end":2691.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2691.45846875,"end":2692.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2691.4753437500003,"end":2691.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2693.26409375,"end":2694.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2693.7028437500003,"end":2694.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2695.72784375,"end":2696.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2696.80784375,"end":2697.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2699.3897187500006,"end":2700.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2701.22909375,"end":2701.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2702.73096875,"end":2703.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2704.16534375,"end":2704.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2705.2284687500005,"end":2705.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2706.57846875,"end":2707.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2707.84409375,"end":2709.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2709.5653437500005,"end":2709.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2709.64971875,"end":2711.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2711.7928437500004,"end":2713.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2714.3240937500004,"end":2715.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2715.8428437500006,"end":2717.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2718.0703437500006,"end":2719.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2720.07846875,"end":2720.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2720.14596875,"end":2721.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2722.06971875,"end":2722.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2722.44096875,"end":2723.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2725.51221875,"end":2725.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2725.56284375,"end":2725.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2725.69784375,"end":2726.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2726.0184687500005,"end":2726.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2726.64284375,"end":2728.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2730.15284375,"end":2735.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2735.08034375,"end":2736.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2735.9072187500005,"end":2736.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2737.44284375,"end":2740.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2740.7165937500004,"end":2742.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2742.9440937500003,"end":2747.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2747.2472187500007,"end":2752.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2754.06471875,"end":2757.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2757.45659375,"end":2758.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2759.49846875,"end":2760.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2760.69659375,"end":2762.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2762.5865937500002,"end":2764.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2765.26971875,"end":2774.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2775.1922187500004,"end":2776.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2776.84596875,"end":2778.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2778.5672187500004,"end":2779.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2780.17034375,"end":2784.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2785.4353437500004,"end":2786.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2787.9159687500005,"end":2802.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2802.71534375,"end":2803.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2803.9472187500005,"end":2804.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2804.82471875,"end":2806.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2807.10284375,"end":2808.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2808.9590937500006,"end":2809.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2809.4147187500002,"end":2809.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2810.5284687500007,"end":2810.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2810.71409375,"end":2813.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2813.92034375,"end":2815.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2815.96221875,"end":2824.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2823.99471875,"end":2830.3903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2829.47909375,"end":2830.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2831.4197187500004,"end":2832.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2833.2253437500003,"end":2834.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2835.4528437500003,"end":2837.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2837.37659375,"end":2839.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2840.4815937500007,"end":2842.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2843.2490937500006,"end":2847.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2847.72096875,"end":2848.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2849.3409687500007,"end":2851.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2853.0028437500005,"end":2853.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2854.84221875,"end":2856.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2856.78284375,"end":2857.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2859.3309687500005,"end":2860.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2862.4022187500004,"end":2865.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2869.0340937500005,"end":2869.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2869.37159375,"end":2870.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2871.9872187500005,"end":2873.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2873.1853437500004,"end":2875.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2875.8515937500006,"end":2882.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2882.93909375,"end":2883.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2883.6815937500005,"end":2885.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2886.6178437500002,"end":2889.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2889.5372187500006,"end":2892.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2892.97971875,"end":2894.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2895.34221875,"end":2895.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2895.9159687500005,"end":2899.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2899.30784375,"end":2905.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2906.0409687500005,"end":2906.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2906.96909375,"end":2907.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2907.94784375,"end":2909.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2907.9647187500004,"end":2908.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2909.6015937500006,"end":2919.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2918.9503437500007,"end":2920.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2920.5534687500003,"end":2928.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2927.6072187500004,"end":2929.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2929.3115937500006,"end":2941.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2941.69784375,"end":2943.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2944.46534375,"end":2946.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2946.7940937500007,"end":2947.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2948.2959687500006,"end":2954.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2955.2315937500007,"end":2956.0584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2956.4803437500004,"end":2957.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2958.3365937500002,"end":2969.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2969.59221875,"end":2979.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2979.9197187500004,"end":2981.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2982.1640937500006,"end":2982.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2982.19784375,"end":2982.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2982.29909375,"end":2987.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2982.31596875,"end":2982.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2987.90159375,"end":2995.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2992.60971875,"end":2996.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2997.4528437500003,"end":3001.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3001.51971875,"end":3001.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3001.53659375,"end":3001.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3001.5534687500003,"end":3001.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3002.66721875,"end":3005.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3006.29534375,"end":3008.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3010.56471875,"end":3011.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3011.96534375,"end":3012.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3012.5390937500006,"end":3012.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3012.67409375,"end":3012.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3014.12534375,"end":3022.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3023.3053437500002,"end":3033.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3033.8690937500005,"end":3043.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3043.42034375,"end":3044.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3044.7872187500006,"end":3045.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3045.41159375,"end":3045.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3046.23846875,"end":3049.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3049.69784375,"end":3053.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3053.59596875,"end":3056.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3057.4434687500006,"end":3059.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3059.45159375,"end":3063.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3064.14284375,"end":3071.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3071.6522187500004,"end":3074.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3073.96409375,"end":3076.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3077.28846875,"end":3079.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3079.87034375,"end":3080.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3081.1697187500004,"end":3082.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3083.2790937500004,"end":3086.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3087.41346875,"end":3090.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3090.73784375,"end":3093.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3094.23096875,"end":3096.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3096.7959687500006,"end":3099.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3100.23846875,"end":3101.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3101.94284375,"end":3103.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3104.0859687500006,"end":3105.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3106.39784375,"end":3112.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3112.5909687500007,"end":3112.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3112.91159375,"end":3116.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3116.9109687500004,"end":3117.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3117.0459687500006,"end":3120.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3120.3534687500005,"end":3120.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3120.8934687500005,"end":3122.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3122.68221875,"end":3125.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3126.41159375,"end":3128.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3128.89221875,"end":3130.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3131.1534687500007,"end":3136.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3137.0934687500003,"end":3137.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3137.36346875,"end":3140.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3140.4178437500004,"end":3144.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3140.80596875,"end":3140.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3140.82284375,"end":3142.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3142.9659687500007,"end":3144.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3144.31596875,"end":3144.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3144.8222187500005,"end":3144.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3145.1934687500006,"end":3147.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3147.31971875,"end":3149.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3156.2634687500004,"end":3158.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3158.5584687500004,"end":3160.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3161.1572187500005,"end":3166.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3166.91159375,"end":3170.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3170.9109687500004,"end":3170.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3170.99534375,"end":3171.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3171.4003437500005,"end":3171.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3171.43409375,"end":3171.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3171.4678437500006,"end":3171.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3171.48471875,"end":3171.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3171.55221875,"end":3171.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3171.6365937500004,"end":3172.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3171.7547187500004,"end":3172.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3172.02471875,"end":3172.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3172.46346875,"end":3172.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3172.9697187500005,"end":3173.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3173.23971875,"end":3177.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3179.85471875,"end":3181.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3181.9978437500004,"end":3182.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3182.0147187500006,"end":3182.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3182.8584687500006,"end":3186.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3186.5372187500006,"end":3187.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3188.37659375,"end":3189.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3189.7097187500003,"end":3191.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3192.0215937500006,"end":3193.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3193.6415937500005,"end":3194.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3195.0253437500005,"end":3195.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3196.02096875,"end":3196.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3198.1134687500007,"end":3199.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3200.05409375,"end":3201.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3202.29846875,"end":3207.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3207.27659375,"end":3208.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3208.49159375,"end":3210.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3210.5165937500005,"end":3212.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3213.1490937500002,"end":3214.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3213.2840937500005,"end":3213.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3214.4990937500006,"end":3214.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3214.51596875,"end":3214.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3215.24159375,"end":3234.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3233.85471875,"end":3234.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3235.6434687500005,"end":3236.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3236.4197187500004,"end":3237.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3238.6472187500003,"end":3239.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3240.68909375,"end":3240.7228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3240.7228437500007,"end":3240.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3240.73971875,"end":3241.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3241.4315937500005,"end":3241.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3241.44846875,"end":3241.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3241.46534375,"end":3241.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3242.00534375,"end":3243.2540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3244.28346875,"end":3244.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3245.2115937500002,"end":3247.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3248.75534375,"end":3251.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3252.4003437500005,"end":3254.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3255.01596875,"end":3256.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3256.6865937500006,"end":3257.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3258.4922187500006,"end":3259.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3260.1290937500007,"end":3260.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3261.7322187500004,"end":3262.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3263.33534375,"end":3265.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3265.5965937500005,"end":3266.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3267.9928437500002,"end":3269.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3269.00534375,"end":3269.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3269.1403437500003,"end":3269.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3269.24159375,"end":3269.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3269.8153437500005,"end":3271.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3271.2497187500003,"end":3272.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3272.6503437500005,"end":3278.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3274.13534375,"end":3276.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3278.16846875,"end":3279.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3278.28659375,"end":3278.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3278.8097187500007,"end":3279.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3280.2440937500005,"end":3284.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3284.6315937500003,"end":3285.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3284.7497187500003,"end":3285.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3286.30221875,"end":3287.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3287.80409375,"end":3296.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3294.48659375,"end":3298.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3297.4059687500003,"end":3297.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3297.45659375,"end":3297.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3298.2665937500005,"end":3299.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3298.90784375,"end":3299.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3299.2284687500005,"end":3299.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3299.8359687500006,"end":3303.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3300.29159375,"end":3301.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3301.77659375,"end":3301.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3302.56971875,"end":3302.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3302.6540937500004,"end":3302.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3303.1603437500007,"end":3304.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3304.02096875,"end":3311.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3311.2772187500004,"end":3313.5215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3311.85096875,"end":3312.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3314.26409375,"end":3314.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3315.10784375,"end":3317.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3318.1622187500006,"end":3319.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3319.57971875,"end":3321.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3322.4315937500005,"end":3330.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3330.29534375,"end":3347.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3347.9972187500007,"end":3349.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3350.2247187500006,"end":3353.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3354.6628437500003,"end":3380.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3374.47409375,"end":3375.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3377.19096875,"end":3377.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3377.2078437500004,"end":3377.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3380.3972187500003,"end":3389.6953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3389.94846875,"end":3391.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3391.7540937500007,"end":3394.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3394.4372187500003,"end":3394.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3394.47096875,"end":3394.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3394.5047187500004,"end":3394.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3397.5084687500002,"end":3408.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3408.9665937500004,"end":3420.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3416.84721875,"end":3419.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3421.25159375,"end":3424.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3421.77471875,"end":3421.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3424.54221875,"end":3425.9259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3426.31409375,"end":3427.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3428.05221875,"end":3428.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3428.8790937500007,"end":3430.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3430.51596875,"end":3431.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3432.2878437500003,"end":3433.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3434.0934687500003,"end":3435.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3436.25346875,"end":3437.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3437.9072187500005,"end":3438.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3438.71721875,"end":3439.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3439.72971875,"end":3440.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3442.46346875,"end":3442.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3442.51409375,"end":3443.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3444.0665937500007,"end":3444.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3444.67409375,"end":3452.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3448.2853437500007,"end":3450.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3452.6222187500007,"end":3452.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3453.24659375,"end":3457.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3454.02284375,"end":3454.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3456.4022187500004,"end":3456.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3457.4990937500006,"end":3476.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3477.0909687500007,"end":3499.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3496.7840937500005,"end":3498.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3499.7540937500007,"end":3514.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3514.0978437500007,"end":3515.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3515.9372187500003,"end":3515.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3516.4434687500006,"end":3516.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3516.4772187500002,"end":3516.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3517.00034375,"end":3519.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3521.15159375,"end":3523.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3521.35409375,"end":3521.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3523.93596875,"end":3525.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3524.35784375,"end":3525.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3525.31971875,"end":3525.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3525.6403437500003,"end":3535.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3534.1622187500006,"end":3535.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3535.3434687500003,"end":3537.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3535.5459687500006,"end":3536.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3539.47784375,"end":3541.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3540.33846875,"end":3540.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3540.9628437500005,"end":3542.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3542.12721875,"end":3542.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3542.75159375,"end":3542.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3542.80221875,"end":3542.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3542.9034687500007,"end":3544.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3543.34221875,"end":3543.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3544.1522187500004,"end":3553.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3548.3878437500007,"end":3550.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3552.3028437500006,"end":3552.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3553.72034375,"end":3554.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3555.93096875,"end":3567.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3567.43971875,"end":3567.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3568.18221875,"end":3577.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3574.72971875,"end":3575.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3577.1934687500006,"end":3586.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3586.37346875,"end":3587.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3587.99346875,"end":3604.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3603.18096875,"end":3603.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3604.1090937500003,"end":3605.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3607.72034375,"end":3610.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3611.6690937500007,"end":3614.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3615.06096875,"end":3617.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3617.35596875,"end":3618.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3618.9422187500004,"end":3621.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3622.04721875,"end":3623.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3624.39284375,"end":3624.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3624.88221875,"end":3624.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3625.1690937500007,"end":3626.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3626.09721875,"end":3627.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3627.48096875,"end":3629.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3629.4890937500004,"end":3630.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3634.2647187500006,"end":3634.7540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3634.82159375,"end":3640.2384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3640.55909375,"end":3642.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3642.6347187500005,"end":3644.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3646.6678437500004,"end":3649.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3649.9753437500003,"end":3654.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3654.0253437500005,"end":3655.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3656.16846875,"end":3658.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3658.7840937500005,"end":3660.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3661.77096875,"end":3671.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3662.0240937500002,"end":3663.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3672.31784375,"end":3675.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3675.8953437500004,"end":3678.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3678.8484687500004,"end":3679.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3680.1309687500006,"end":3683.2697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3683.82659375,"end":3685.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3685.5478437500005,"end":3686.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3686.66159375,"end":3687.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3687.4884687500007,"end":3688.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3689.49659375,"end":3690.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3691.0828437500004,"end":3694.2384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3694.2890937500006,"end":3695.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3696.6347187500005,"end":3700.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3698.9972187500007,"end":3710.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3706.7090937500006,"end":3709.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3710.7422187500006,"end":3711.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3711.8222187500005,"end":3711.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3711.83909375,"end":3714.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3711.8728437500004,"end":3711.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3711.90659375,"end":3712.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3712.9022187500004,"end":3717.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3715.1803437500002,"end":3716.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3717.81284375,"end":3722.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3722.9597187500003,"end":3722.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3722.99346875,"end":3723.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3723.17909375,"end":3724.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3723.8878437500007,"end":3724.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3724.6134687500007,"end":3724.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3724.7822187500005,"end":3734.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3724.8497187500006,"end":3725.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3728.4609687500006,"end":3729.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3729.0515937500004,"end":3729.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3729.5409687500005,"end":3729.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3729.9628437500005,"end":3730.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3730.2665937500005,"end":3730.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3734.02971875,"end":3735.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3735.41346875,"end":3738.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3749.0822187500007,"end":3751.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3751.68096875,"end":3753.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3754.63409375,"end":3754.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3754.65096875,"end":3755.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3760.06784375,"end":3760.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3760.96221875,"end":3761.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3761.2322187500004,"end":3795.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3796.93971875,"end":3799.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3799.79159375,"end":3802.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3801.6140937500004,"end":3802.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3802.0359687500004,"end":3821.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3802.06971875,"end":3802.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3812.9540937500005,"end":3813.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3821.2734687500006,"end":3822.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3822.2353437500005,"end":3830.0822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3830.0822187500007,"end":3830.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3830.26784375,"end":3867.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3841.1690937500007,"end":3841.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3868.42221875,"end":3879.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3872.9784687500005,"end":3873.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3875.23971875,"end":3876.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3880.1334687500002,"end":3892.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3881.75346875,"end":3881.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3882.83346875,"end":3884.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3886.4278437500006,"end":3887.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3889.2965937500003,"end":3889.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3890.0390937500006,"end":3890.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3892.53659375,"end":3903.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3894.34221875,"end":3895.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3905.37846875,"end":3906.8634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3905.5978437500007,"end":3907.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3907.3865937500004,"end":3911.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3909.4284687500003,"end":3910.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3911.3522187500002,"end":3913.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3914.6765937500004,"end":3915.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3915.1490937500002,"end":3915.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3915.55409375,"end":3915.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3915.79034375,"end":3916.0265937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3916.0265937500008,"end":3916.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3916.7353437500005,"end":3916.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3917.35971875,"end":3917.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3917.47784375,"end":3917.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3917.49471875,"end":3917.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3917.59596875,"end":3920.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3920.3634687500007,"end":3925.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3925.37534375,"end":3928.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3929.1553437500006,"end":3929.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3930.0497187500005,"end":3933.0197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3933.45846875,"end":3936.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3937.1540937500004,"end":3937.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3939.0440937500007,"end":3939.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3939.2128437500005,"end":3939.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3939.53346875,"end":3946.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3947.2959687500006,"end":3948.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3948.15659375,"end":3948.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3948.71346875,"end":3954.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3953.10096875,"end":3963.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3964.4578437500004,"end":3968.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3969.4697187500005,"end":3974.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3973.7559687500006,"end":3976.0509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3975.7303437500004,"end":3981.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3978.2784687500007,"end":3978.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3982.32846875,"end":3982.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3983.18909375,"end":3983.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3983.72909375,"end":3983.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3983.96534375,"end":3984.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3984.31971875,"end":3984.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3984.74159375,"end":3984.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3984.7753437500005,"end":3985.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3985.5009687500005,"end":3985.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3985.6190937500005,"end":3985.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3986.3953437500004,"end":3992.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3991.62659375,"end":4004.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3998.91659375,"end":4000.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4004.9747187500006,"end":4021.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4010.4928437500002,"end":4010.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4010.5097187500005,"end":4012.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4014.2559687500006,"end":4014.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4020.60096875,"end":4030.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4022.11971875,"end":4023.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4027.6209687500004,"end":4027.9415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4030.96221875,"end":4033.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4034.3034687500003,"end":4039.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4040.0240937500002,"end":4052.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4052.9334687500004,"end":4092.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4093.2478437500004,"end":4118.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4099.255343750001,"end":4099.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4107.72659375,"end":4108.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4108.435343749999,"end":4108.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4110.595343749999,"end":4110.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4118.07096875,"end":4120.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4120.12971875,"end":4125.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4120.247843749999,"end":4120.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4121.479718750001,"end":4121.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4123.167218750001,"end":4123.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4125.749093750001,"end":4143.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4135.485968749999,"end":4135.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4142.0165937500005,"end":4142.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4142.91096875,"end":4169.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4169.96159375,"end":4172.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4172.25659375,"end":4175.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4174.19721875,"end":4177.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4175.3447187500005,"end":4175.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4176.8465937500005,"end":4184.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4183.731593750001,"end":4208.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4209.4490937499995,"end":4218.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4214.68034375,"end":4214.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4214.91659375,"end":4214.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4218.038468750001,"end":4233.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4233.782843749999,"end":4255.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4256.3447187500005,"end":4269.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4269.54096875,"end":4270.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4270.587218750001,"end":4274.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4272.44346875,"end":4272.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4272.49409375,"end":4272.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4272.510968750001,"end":4272.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4272.696593750001,"end":4272.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4272.780968749999,"end":4272.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4273.50659375,"end":4275.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4275.66659375,"end":4278.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4288.03596875,"end":4291.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4295.899718750001,"end":4296.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4296.8447187500005,"end":4317.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4301.95784375,"end":4303.206593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4311.036593750001,"end":4311.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4311.05346875,"end":4311.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4317.786593750001,"end":4319.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4320.081593749999,"end":4327.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4328.4178437499995,"end":4328.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4332.2147187499995,"end":4337.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4338.07034375,"end":4341.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4341.462218750001,"end":4341.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4342.2215937500005,"end":4345.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4347.01409375,"end":4349.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4349.68034375,"end":4356.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4356.61596875,"end":4357.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4358.708468750001,"end":4367.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4367.5340937500005,"end":4370.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4368.76596875,"end":4379.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4379.8865937499995,"end":4388.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4386.38346875,"end":4386.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4389.640343749999,"end":4397.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4397.807843750001,"end":4443.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4444.0115937499995,"end":4460.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4449.00659375,"end":4450.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4458.642218749999,"end":4462.253468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4461.02159375,"end":4476.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4477.66034375,"end":4491.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4492.358468750001,"end":4493.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4493.387843750001,"end":4494.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4495.00784375,"end":4499.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4498.956593749999,"end":4506.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4502.82096875,"end":4505.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4506.34784375,"end":4553.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4553.86784375,"end":4575.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4556.77034375,"end":4558.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4575.231593750001,"end":4584.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4580.850968750001,"end":4582.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4583.247218750001,"end":4586.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4586.048468749999,"end":4588.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4587.364718750001,"end":4588.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4588.022843750001,"end":4596.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4588.66409375,"end":4588.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4588.74846875,"end":4588.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4588.84971875,"end":4588.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4588.866593750001,"end":4588.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4588.90034375,"end":4588.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4595.717843750001,"end":4595.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4595.97096875,"end":4596.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4596.510968750001,"end":4596.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4597.13534375,"end":4597.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4598.26596875,"end":4601.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4601.26971875,"end":4602.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4603.632218750001,"end":4604.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4603.682843750001,"end":4604.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4605.8934687500005,"end":4615.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4607.3447187500005,"end":4607.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4609.33596875,"end":4610.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4613.55471875,"end":4616.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4616.59221875,"end":4617.925343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4617.790343750001,"end":4620.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4620.743468750001,"end":4622.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4621.013468749999,"end":4621.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4621.73909375,"end":4633.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4626.970343749999,"end":4630.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4633.46721875,"end":4633.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4633.484093749999,"end":4633.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4633.5009687500005,"end":4636.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4633.9228437500005,"end":4634.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4635.323468750001,"end":4637.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4636.55534375,"end":4638.175343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4637.905343750001,"end":4642.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4642.27596875,"end":4642.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4642.495343750001,"end":4642.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4642.529093749999,"end":4643.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4643.32221875,"end":4643.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4643.372843749999,"end":4643.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4643.474093750001,"end":4646.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4644.317843750001,"end":4648.907843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4647.642218749999,"end":4653.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4650.15659375,"end":4651.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4651.08471875,"end":4651.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4651.169093750001,"end":4651.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4651.42221875,"end":4652.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4652.02971875,"end":4652.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4653.02534375,"end":4653.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4653.075968749999,"end":4653.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4653.126593749999,"end":4653.362843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4653.362843749999,"end":4654.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4654.206593749999,"end":4668.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4669.5965937500005,"end":4694.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4690.75784375,"end":4691.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4691.31471875,"end":4691.331593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4692.934718750001,"end":4695.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4695.82034375,"end":4714.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4714.720343749999,"end":4715.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4715.59784375,"end":4740.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4739.35784375,"end":4746.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4744.42034375,"end":4748.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4746.968468749999,"end":4750.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4749.19596875,"end":4801.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4802.6053437499995,"end":4803.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4803.43221875,"end":4805.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4803.499718749999,"end":4803.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4803.600968750001,"end":4803.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4803.972218750001,"end":4804.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4804.967843750001,"end":4805.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4805.845343749999,"end":4805.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4805.9803437499995,"end":4821.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4813.1522187499995,"end":4815.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4815.02534375,"end":4818.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4821.505343750001,"end":4845.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4821.52221875,"end":4821.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4845.95721875,"end":4854.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4855.069718750001,"end":4866.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4858.05659375,"end":4858.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4858.61346875,"end":4858.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4858.630343750001,"end":4858.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4866.747218750001,"end":4871.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4870.66221875,"end":4871.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4872.839093750001,"end":4874.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4873.32846875,"end":4875.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4875.1678437499995,"end":4876.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4876.97346875,"end":4888.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4877.850968750001,"end":4878.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4879.36971875,"end":4883.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4885.394093750001,"end":4885.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4885.579718749999,"end":4885.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4886.64284375,"end":4886.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4888.920968750001,"end":4891.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4892.0428437499995,"end":4896.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4896.81846875,"end":4898.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4900.075343750001,"end":4900.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4903.585343750001,"end":4904.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4904.46284375,"end":4904.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4904.54721875,"end":4904.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4905.25596875,"end":4905.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4906.589093750001,"end":4906.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4907.17971875,"end":4918.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4913.760968750001,"end":4913.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4915.212218750001,"end":4915.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4915.33034375,"end":4915.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4919.68409375,"end":4922.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4923.6834687499995,"end":4924.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4924.89846875,"end":4927.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4926.06284375,"end":4927.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4928.35784375,"end":4931.985968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4931.17596875,"end":4931.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4931.749718749999,"end":4931.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4932.28971875,"end":4972.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4972.28346875,"end":4993.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4994.237843750001,"end":4997.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4998.0009687500005,"end":5002.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5003.36721875,"end":5014.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5004.86909375,"end":5005.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5005.27409375,"end":5005.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5005.628468750001,"end":5005.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5005.679093750001,"end":5005.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5005.74659375,"end":5005.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5005.79721875,"end":5005.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5005.8309687500005,"end":5006.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5014.538468750001,"end":5043.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5016.124718749999,"end":5016.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5016.1415937500005,"end":5016.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5016.968468749999,"end":5017.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5037.43784375,"end":5039.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5040.5428437499995,"end":5040.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5042.58471875,"end":5054.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5044.13721875,"end":5047.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5048.08596875,"end":5049.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5051.41034375,"end":5054.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5055.139718750001,"end":5060.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5057.02971875,"end":5064.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5063.3915937500005,"end":5076.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5074.03971875,"end":5075.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5076.655343750001,"end":5081.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5077.6678437499995,"end":5080.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5080.36784375,"end":5080.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5080.80659375,"end":5081.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5081.987843750001,"end":5086.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5086.29096875,"end":5086.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5087.185343749999,"end":5093.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5093.530343750001,"end":5094.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5095.52159375,"end":5097.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5097.44534375,"end":5103.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5100.364718750001,"end":5108.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5105.73096875,"end":5105.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5105.747843749999,"end":5105.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5105.764718750001,"end":5105.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5105.798468749999,"end":5106.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5106.11909375,"end":5106.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5106.169718749999,"end":5110.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5108.751593749999,"end":5109.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5109.122843749999,"end":5109.173468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5109.173468749999,"end":5109.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5109.359093749999,"end":5109.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5110.489718750001,"end":5140.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5120.96909375,"end":5121.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5121.036593750001,"end":5121.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5121.15471875,"end":5121.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5136.139718750001,"end":5136.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5138.87346875,"end":5146.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5143.0584687499995,"end":5144.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5145.1678437499995,"end":5153.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5152.27221875,"end":5158.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5154.685343749999,"end":5163.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5161.215968750001,"end":5161.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5163.15659375,"end":5174.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5166.44721875,"end":5166.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5175.25596875,"end":5185.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5184.604718750001,"end":5192.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5187.929093750001,"end":5191.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5192.45159375,"end":5198.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5197.530968749999,"end":5197.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5197.85159375,"end":5197.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5199.35346875,"end":5199.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5199.370343750001,"end":5199.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5199.38721875,"end":5199.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5199.52221875,"end":5200.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5200.534718750001,"end":5211.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5212.212218750001,"end":5213.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5213.54534375,"end":5215.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5213.59596875,"end":5213.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5215.09784375,"end":5215.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5215.114718750001,"end":5215.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5215.435343749999,"end":5216.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5216.515343749999,"end":5218.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5218.18596875,"end":5218.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5218.2197187500005,"end":5218.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5219.012843750001,"end":5219.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5219.02971875,"end":5221.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5219.63721875,"end":5220.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5221.71284375,"end":5228.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5228.850968750001,"end":5241.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5231.5340937500005,"end":5231.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5231.58471875,"end":5231.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5231.702843749999,"end":5231.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5240.0897187499995,"end":5244.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5242.114718750001,"end":5243.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5244.325343750001,"end":5267.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5251.075343750001,"end":5251.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5252.8134687500005,"end":5253.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5259.85034375,"end":5262.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5262.972218750001,"end":5263.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5263.022843750001,"end":5265.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5268.33846875,"end":5274.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5274.80159375,"end":5283.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5283.44159375,"end":5291.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5292.216593749999,"end":5296.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5296.78971875,"end":5298.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5299.33784375,"end":5321.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5321.950343750001,"end":5326.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5327.13096875,"end":5328.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5327.92409375,"end":5329.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5329.29096875,"end":5352.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5352.84846875,"end":5357.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5356.05471875,"end":5356.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5358.0965937500005,"end":5358.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5358.82221875,"end":5378.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5378.58284375,"end":5384.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5385.450968749999,"end":5392.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5390.83409375,"end":5407.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5401.98846875,"end":5402.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5402.02221875,"end":5402.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5407.47284375,"end":5409.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5408.620343750001,"end":5411.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5411.607218749999,"end":5414.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5415.10034375,"end":5415.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5416.04534375,"end":5420.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5420.5340937500005,"end":5429.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5430.270968750001,"end":5438.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5439.552218750001,"end":5446.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5448.090968750001,"end":5450.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5448.10784375,"end":5448.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5450.55471875,"end":5452.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5450.6053437499995,"end":5451.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5452.47846875,"end":5454.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5454.38534375,"end":5473.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5473.825343750001,"end":5475.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5476.50846875,"end":5480.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5479.09034375,"end":5483.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5482.448468750001,"end":5489.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5485.70534375,"end":5486.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5487.3084687499995,"end":5489.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5489.654093749999,"end":5491.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5504.571593750001,"end":5512.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5512.78971875,"end":5513.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5513.059718750001,"end":5513.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5513.5322187500005,"end":5513.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5514.561593750001,"end":5514.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5517.835343750001,"end":5518.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5517.919718749999,"end":5518.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5518.577843749999,"end":5524.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5525.108468750001,"end":5525.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5525.513468749999,"end":5533.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5533.84971875,"end":5536.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5536.60034375,"end":5537.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5538.28784375,"end":5539.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5539.51971875,"end":5544.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5545.122218750001,"end":5546.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5545.29096875,"end":5545.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5546.573468750001,"end":5547.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5547.653468750001,"end":5564.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5564.055968750001,"end":5567.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5567.59971875,"end":5568.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5568.49409375,"end":5572.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5573.387843750001,"end":5574.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5575.14284375,"end":5578.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5578.635968750001,"end":5588.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5588.474093750001,"end":5592.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5594.059718750001,"end":5596.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5597.4853437500005,"end":5597.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5597.97471875,"end":5597.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5597.991593750001,"end":5598.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5598.835343750001,"end":5600.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5601.653468750001,"end":5608.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5608.08284375,"end":5612.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5612.858468750001,"end":5613.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5615.524718750001,"end":5617.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5615.5584687499995,"end":5616.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5616.25034375,"end":5618.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5618.22471875,"end":5620.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5621.059718750001,"end":5630.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5631.10034375,"end":5634.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5634.72846875,"end":5637.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5637.327218750001,"end":5641.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5642.22096875,"end":5642.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5642.794718749999,"end":5643.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5643.80721875,"end":5648.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5649.089093750001,"end":5657.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5657.8134687500005,"end":5658.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5658.96096875,"end":5660.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5660.749718749999,"end":5663.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5663.77034375,"end":5665.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5665.440968750001,"end":5670.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5671.110968749999,"end":5674.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5674.536593750001,"end":5676.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5676.49409375,"end":5677.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5678.02971875,"end":5679.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5680.13909375,"end":5683.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5683.14284375,"end":5684.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5685.25221875,"end":5687.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5687.68221875,"end":5689.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5689.8759687500005,"end":5693.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5694.14534375,"end":5696.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5696.339093750001,"end":5713.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5713.46721875,"end":5713.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5713.51784375,"end":5713.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5713.65284375,"end":5713.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5713.821593750001,"end":5714.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5714.02409375,"end":5714.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5714.530343750001,"end":5714.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5714.749718749999,"end":5717.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5717.854718750001,"end":5720.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5721.71909375,"end":5723.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5724.19971875,"end":5724.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5725.1278437500005,"end":5726.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5726.950343750001,"end":5729.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5729.39721875,"end":5732.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5732.58659375,"end":5735.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5735.421593749999,"end":5738.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5738.3915937500005,"end":5738.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5738.69534375,"end":5739.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5739.032843749999,"end":5740.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5739.85971875,"end":5740.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5740.56846875,"end":5740.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5740.585343750001,"end":5752.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5745.95159375,"end":5746.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5752.769093750001,"end":5753.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5753.140343749999,"end":5753.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5753.376593749999,"end":5761.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5757.696593750001,"end":5759.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5760.34596875,"end":5768.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5764.919093750001,"end":5765.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5768.39534375,"end":5772.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5771.061593750001,"end":5779.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5779.65096875,"end":5789.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5790.366593750001,"end":5790.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5791.311593750001,"end":5793.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5794.04534375,"end":5795.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5796.0028437500005,"end":5800.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5801.0653437500005,"end":5804.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5804.82846875,"end":5806.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5805.182843750001,"end":5805.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5806.83659375,"end":5808.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5808.979718750001,"end":5810.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5810.63346875,"end":5814.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5814.80159375,"end":5816.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5817.231593750001,"end":5819.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5821.7372187500005,"end":5822.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5822.715968750001,"end":5828.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5828.97659375,"end":5829.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5829.90471875,"end":5831.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5829.921593749999,"end":5830.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5832.52034375,"end":5832.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5832.975968750001,"end":5833.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5833.026593750001,"end":5834.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5836.452218750001,"end":5845.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5845.716593749999,"end":5845.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5845.75034375,"end":5845.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5845.767218750001,"end":5845.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5845.868468750001,"end":5845.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5845.93596875,"end":5850.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5845.9697187500005,"end":5846.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5851.015343749999,"end":5852.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5852.466593749999,"end":5857.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5856.550343750001,"end":5861.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5861.950343750001,"end":5866.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5867.50221875,"end":5870.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5868.3290937500005,"end":5868.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5870.522843750001,"end":5872.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5870.53971875,"end":5871.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5872.7840937500005,"end":5876.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5877.171593749999,"end":5877.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5878.0322187500005,"end":5879.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5878.04909375,"end":5881.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5881.28909375,"end":5884.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5881.305968750001,"end":5881.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5884.66409375,"end":5897.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5887.769093750001,"end":5887.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5887.78596875,"end":5887.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5897.894093750001,"end":5898.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5899.1259687500005,"end":5900.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5900.69534375,"end":5903.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5903.985968750001,"end":5905.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5905.57221875,"end":5911.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5912.11971875,"end":5917.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5917.6209687499995,"end":5924.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5924.337218750001,"end":5925.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5925.72096875,"end":5928.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5928.454718750001,"end":5930.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5931.272843750001,"end":5932.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5932.4540937500005,"end":5934.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5935.170968750001,"end":5936.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5936.08221875,"end":5936.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5936.11596875,"end":5936.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5936.2509687500005,"end":5936.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5936.858468750001,"end":5936.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5936.942843750001,"end":5937.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5936.95971875,"end":5936.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5937.14534375,"end":5939.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5939.45721875,"end":5956.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5940.655343750001,"end":5941.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5945.667218750001,"end":5947.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5955.825968749999,"end":5960.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5960.55096875,"end":5963.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5963.30159375,"end":5963.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5963.858468750001,"end":5966.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5966.03534375,"end":5970.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5966.06909375,"end":5966.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5966.25471875,"end":5966.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5970.270968750001,"end":5973.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5973.325343750001,"end":5981.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5979.7040937500005,"end":5982.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5982.15096875,"end":5982.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5982.218468749999,"end":5982.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5982.25221875,"end":5982.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5982.269093750001,"end":5982.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5982.43784375,"end":5987.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5982.48846875,"end":5982.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5983.33221875,"end":5983.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5984.564093750001,"end":5986.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5987.02784375,"end":5987.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5987.432843750001,"end":5987.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5987.44971875,"end":5987.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5987.50034375,"end":5987.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5987.5340937500005,"end":5992.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5992.917218750001,"end":5996.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5996.69721875,"end":5997.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5997.96284375,"end":6001.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6001.60784375,"end":6002.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6003.19409375,"end":6005.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6005.55659375,"end":6007.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6007.61534375,"end":6009.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6010.062218749999,"end":6023.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6015.29346875,"end":6018.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6023.91659375,"end":6024.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6024.89534375,"end":6030.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6029.468468749999,"end":6037.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6037.298468750001,"end":6040.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6040.0322187500005,"end":6053.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6040.251593750001,"end":6040.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6040.825343750001,"end":6040.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6053.430968750001,"end":6062.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6058.392218750001,"end":6059.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6060.552218750001,"end":6061.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6061.64909375,"end":6064.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6063.454718750001,"end":6065.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6064.028468750001,"end":6069.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6071.35221875,"end":6076.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6076.33034375,"end":6077.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6078.321593750001,"end":6079.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6081.25784375,"end":6081.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6082.118468750001,"end":6084.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6085.257218750001,"end":6093.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6093.981593750001,"end":6094.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6095.2303437499995,"end":6101.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6101.59221875,"end":6105.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6105.591593749999,"end":6107.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6107.63346875,"end":6109.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6110.147843750001,"end":6117.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6117.555968750001,"end":6123.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6123.10784375,"end":6129.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6130.212218750001,"end":6137.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6138.126593750001,"end":6143.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6143.526593750001,"end":6164.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6153.465968750001,"end":6153.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6153.499718749999,"end":6153.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6165.95346875,"end":6166.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6166.03784375,"end":6171.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6166.392218750001,"end":6166.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6168.653468750001,"end":6168.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6168.7040937500005,"end":6168.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6171.99471875,"end":6172.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6172.97346875,"end":6174.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6173.86784375,"end":6174.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6174.9647187499995,"end":6175.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6175.0322187500005,"end":6175.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6175.89284375,"end":6178.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6178.27221875,"end":6185.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6183.975968750001,"end":6192.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6192.5653437500005,"end":6192.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6192.95346875,"end":6201.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6196.69971875,"end":6197.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6202.36971875,"end":6204.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6204.276593750001,"end":6205.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6204.546593749999,"end":6207.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6206.72346875,"end":6210.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6209.67659375,"end":6211.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6210.840968750001,"end":6224.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6211.83659375,"end":6212.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6224.560343749999,"end":6249.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6239.88284375,"end":6240.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6248.06721875,"end":6255.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6251.40846875,"end":6251.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6251.425343750001,"end":6252.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6252.876593750001,"end":6252.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6253.04534375,"end":6253.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6256.23471875,"end":6260.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6260.95971875,"end":6264.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6262.545968750001,"end":6263.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6264.25034375,"end":6267.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6266.69721875,"end":6269.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6269.68409375,"end":6283.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6276.40034375,"end":6278.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6281.68221875,"end":6284.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6284.97284375,"end":6290.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6290.4403437500005,"end":6295.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6296.49846875,"end":6299.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6300.1434687500005,"end":6320.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6320.714093750001,"end":6330.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6320.96721875,"end":6321.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6331.075343750001,"end":6335.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6335.49659375,"end":6341.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6341.79096875,"end":6349.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6350.093468749999,"end":6352.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6352.675343750001,"end":6355.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6355.61159375,"end":6361.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6363.1884687500005,"end":6365.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6366.3778437500005,"end":6369.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6367.98096875,"end":6381.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6382.1053437499995,"end":6389.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6387.52221875,"end":6393.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6392.061593750001,"end":6392.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6393.0740937499995,"end":6399.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6400.88721875,"end":6415.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6402.3553437499995,"end":6405.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6408.86909375,"end":6410.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6413.67846875,"end":6414.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6415.484093749999,"end":6415.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6415.75409375,"end":6419.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6419.804093750001,"end":6435.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6433.32096875,"end":6436.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6436.56096875,"end":6443.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6440.796593749999,"end":6440.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6440.8134687500005,"end":6446.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6446.31471875,"end":6479.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6475.93034375,"end":6476.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6476.79096875,"end":6488.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6488.890343749999,"end":6556.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6516.362843750001,"end":6516.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6524.68221875,"end":6524.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6555.3778437500005,"end":6564.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6564.608468750001,"end":6569.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6568.55721875,"end":6570.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6569.63721875,"end":6581.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6578.36159375,"end":6578.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6581.1122187500005,"end":6587.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6586.98471875,"end":6588.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6588.4697187500005,"end":6588.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6589.09409375,"end":6590.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6590.899718750001,"end":6594.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6593.3465937500005,"end":6593.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6595.1522187499995,"end":6595.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6595.590968750001,"end":6597.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6597.278468750001,"end":6601.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6598.999718749999,"end":6601.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6601.395968750001,"end":6602.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6602.054093750001,"end":6603.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6602.27346875,"end":6602.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6603.977843750001,"end":6604.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6611.79096875,"end":6613.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6613.545968750001,"end":6614.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6614.92971875,"end":6615.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6619.435343749999,"end":6625.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6625.122218750001,"end":6625.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6625.42596875,"end":6632.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6630.640343749999,"end":6631.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6632.02409375,"end":6671.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6672.43971875,"end":6673.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6673.030343750001,"end":6676.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6677.198468750001,"end":6677.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6677.940968750001,"end":6677.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6677.97471875,"end":6680.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6678.970343750001,"end":6679.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6680.0165937500005,"end":6680.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6680.06721875,"end":6681.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6682.395968750001,"end":6684.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6684.505343750001,"end":6684.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6684.842843750001,"end":6688.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6688.08284375,"end":6692.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6693.3309687500005,"end":6694.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6694.19159375,"end":6694.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6694.394093750001,"end":6694.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6694.967843750001,"end":6696.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6696.99284375,"end":6701.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6702.038468750001,"end":6707.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6707.8603437500005,"end":6710.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6710.72909375,"end":6711.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6711.20159375,"end":6711.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6711.28596875,"end":6714.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6711.30284375,"end":6712.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6714.458468750001,"end":6714.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6714.47534375,"end":6717.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6717.02346875,"end":6718.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6719.03159375,"end":6719.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6719.68971875,"end":6721.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6721.74846875,"end":6724.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6724.684718750001,"end":6724.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6724.70159375,"end":6725.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6725.663468750001,"end":6725.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6725.86596875,"end":6725.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6725.96721875,"end":6726.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6726.557843750001,"end":6726.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6726.57471875,"end":6732.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6732.48096875,"end":6759.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6759.3290937500005,"end":6761.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6762.0965937500005,"end":6766.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6766.8553437499995,"end":6771.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6769.8084687499995,"end":6804.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6779.86596875,"end":6780.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6798.276593750001,"end":6798.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6804.38534375,"end":6807.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6808.030343750001,"end":6817.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6817.32846875,"end":6819.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6819.91034375,"end":6821.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6822.71159375,"end":6826.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6823.94346875,"end":6824.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6826.964093750001,"end":6828.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6827.807843750001,"end":6830.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6828.85409375,"end":6829.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6830.30534375,"end":6830.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6830.575343750001,"end":6831.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6831.419093750001,"end":6832.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6832.769093750001,"end":6837.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6837.645968750001,"end":6848.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6840.86909375,"end":6841.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6843.61971875,"end":6843.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6844.80096875,"end":6845.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6848.86784375,"end":6854.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6854.82471875,"end":6859.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6856.47846875,"end":6858.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6858.33471875,"end":6858.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6859.22909375,"end":6865.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6861.43971875,"end":6861.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6864.3084687499995,"end":6889.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6889.99221875,"end":6898.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6892.69221875,"end":6894.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6896.91096875,"end":6897.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6898.109093749999,"end":6900.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6900.57284375,"end":6906.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6905.60159375,"end":6912.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6907.120343750001,"end":6908.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6913.17846875,"end":6913.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6913.93784375,"end":6923.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6923.050343750001,"end":6923.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6923.08409375,"end":6923.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6923.100968750001,"end":6941.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6923.69159375,"end":6923.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6924.48471875,"end":6924.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6930.8465937500005,"end":6931.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6934.52534375,"end":6936.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6940.70159375,"end":6944.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6943.165343750001,"end":6948.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6948.19409375,"end":6962.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6962.97659375,"end":6968.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6967.1278437500005,"end":6968.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6968.714093750001,"end":6968.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6969.62534375,"end":6969.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6969.6590937500005,"end":6969.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6969.96284375,"end":6971.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6971.903468750001,"end":6978.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6977.607218749999,"end":6981.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6979.159718750001,"end":6979.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6981.11721875,"end":6984.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6984.9647187499995,"end":6989.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6989.03159375,"end":6989.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6989.97659375,"end":6990.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6990.0272187499995,"end":6991.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6991.529093749999,"end":6992.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6992.92971875,"end":6995.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6994.60034375,"end":7000.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7000.23659375,"end":7006.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7006.41284375,"end":7007.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7007.59409375,"end":7009.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7011.81284375,"end":7012.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7013.44971875,"end":7015.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7014.47909375,"end":7029.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7029.02534375,"end":7030.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7030.93221875,"end":7054.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7045.05659375,"end":7045.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7054.860968750001,"end":7055.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7055.73846875,"end":7061.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7061.07096875,"end":7061.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7061.138468749999,"end":7062.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7061.290343750001,"end":7066.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7063.686593750001,"end":7063.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7067.1122187500005,"end":7082.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7082.78909375,"end":7084.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7084.03784375,"end":7085.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7086.24846875,"end":7086.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7086.29909375,"end":7086.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7086.315968750001,"end":7086.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7086.38346875,"end":7086.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7086.467843750001,"end":7090.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7087.93596875,"end":7087.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7087.9697187500005,"end":7088.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7088.69534375,"end":7088.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7091.1590937500005,"end":7098.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7099.88346875,"end":7108.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7107.25784375,"end":7107.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7108.69221875,"end":7111.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7111.32471875,"end":7121.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7121.26409375,"end":7121.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7121.5340937500005,"end":7140.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7133.144093750001,"end":7133.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7137.53159375,"end":7137.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7139.843468750001,"end":7151.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7152.263468749999,"end":7155.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7152.415343750001,"end":7152.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7153.93409375,"end":7175.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7159.671593750001,"end":7160.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7160.245343750001,"end":7160.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7175.905343750001,"end":7176.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7176.4959687499995,"end":7182.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7179.95534375,"end":7179.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7182.53721875,"end":7184.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7184.764718750001,"end":7192.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7188.224093750001,"end":7190.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7191.29534375,"end":7202.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7201.92659375,"end":7203.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7203.10784375,"end":7204.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7203.39471875,"end":7205.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7205.92596875,"end":7208.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7208.87909375,"end":7211.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7214.717843750001,"end":7215.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7216.13534375,"end":7218.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7218.599093750001,"end":7231.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7236.030968750001,"end":7236.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7236.72284375,"end":7237.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7237.88721875,"end":7239.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7240.2665937500005,"end":7241.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7242.62909375,"end":7252.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7253.41221875,"end":7259.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7259.6728437500005,"end":7259.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7259.97659375,"end":7259.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7259.993468750001,"end":7260.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7260.044093750001,"end":7260.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7260.128468750001,"end":7264.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7266.89534375,"end":7266.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7269.460343750001,"end":7274.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7272.278468750001,"end":7272.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7274.91096875,"end":7275.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7275.737843750001,"end":7277.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7277.02034375,"end":7279.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7279.399718750001,"end":7287.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7281.71159375,"end":7281.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7283.39909375,"end":7284.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7286.50409375,"end":7289.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7287.95534375,"end":7290.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7290.4697187500005,"end":7300.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7290.48659375,"end":7290.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7301.03346875,"end":7319.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7319.528468750001,"end":7322.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7322.194718750001,"end":7324.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7322.937218750001,"end":7322.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7324.52346875,"end":7324.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7324.540343750001,"end":7324.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7324.75971875,"end":7324.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7324.962218750001,"end":7334.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7334.07471875,"end":7373.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7337.196593750001,"end":7338.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7373.747843749999,"end":7383.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7373.798468750001,"end":7374.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7384.345343750001,"end":7387.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7387.56846875,"end":7392.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7393.08659375,"end":7393.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7394.31846875,"end":7394.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7394.82471875,"end":7396.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7396.579718750001,"end":7413.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7414.028468750001,"end":7414.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7415.63159375,"end":7421.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7422.465968750001,"end":7425.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7426.110968750001,"end":7442.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7442.985968750001,"end":7465.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7465.22721875,"end":7465.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7465.4803437499995,"end":7481.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7481.22471875,"end":7502.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7496.41221875,"end":7498.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7502.520968750001,"end":7512.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7512.57846875,"end":7512.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7512.86534375,"end":7524.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7524.779093749999,"end":7544.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7535.73096875,"end":7536.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7542.76784375,"end":7542.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7545.737843750001,"end":7546.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7546.27784375,"end":7552.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7552.50471875,"end":7555.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7555.03596875,"end":7555.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7556.0653437500005,"end":7562.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7559.03534375,"end":7559.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7561.870343750001,"end":7563.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7563.91221875,"end":7566.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7567.13534375,"end":7571.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7572.11346875,"end":7574.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7574.59409375,"end":7574.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7575.269093750001,"end":7576.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7576.12971875,"end":7578.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7579.08284375,"end":7581.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7582.08659375,"end":7589.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7589.73096875,"end":7591.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7591.452218750001,"end":7593.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7593.460343750001,"end":7594.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7594.439093750001,"end":7600.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7601.44221875,"end":7606.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7607.1122187500005,"end":7607.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7608.1415937500005,"end":7612.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7612.51221875,"end":7613.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7614.4697187500005,"end":7620.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7620.595343750001,"end":7621.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7621.388468749999,"end":7623.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7622.77221875,"end":7635.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7634.21346875,"end":7638.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7638.43221875,"end":7639.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7640.22096875,"end":7648.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7648.0340937500005,"end":7650.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7648.05096875,"end":7649.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7650.734093750001,"end":7650.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7650.7509687500005,"end":7650.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7650.784718750001,"end":7651.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7651.020968750001,"end":7651.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7651.071593750001,"end":7651.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7651.122218750001,"end":7651.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7651.206593750001,"end":7651.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7651.27409375,"end":7651.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7651.29096875,"end":7696.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7696.026593750001,"end":7697.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7697.83221875,"end":7699.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7699.94159375,"end":7710.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7704.548468750001,"end":7704.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7704.71721875,"end":7704.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7704.919718749999,"end":7704.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7711.18034375,"end":7716.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7717.542218750001,"end":7722.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7722.4697187500005,"end":7727.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7727.717843750001,"end":7738.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7738.46721875,"end":7738.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7739.68221875,"end":7740.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7740.34034375,"end":7741.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7741.60596875,"end":7746.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7746.61784375,"end":7755.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7755.67971875,"end":7756.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7756.92846875,"end":7759.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7759.122218750001,"end":7759.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7760.35409375,"end":7762.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7761.48471875,"end":7762.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7762.9022187499995,"end":7789.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7780.958468750001,"end":7781.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7789.59846875,"end":7794.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7789.767218750001,"end":7790.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7790.44221875,"end":7791.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7792.70346875,"end":7801.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7801.1747187500005,"end":7806.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7802.187218750001,"end":7802.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7803.8915937500005,"end":7805.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7805.96721875,"end":7806.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7806.54096875,"end":7806.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7806.6590937500005,"end":7806.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7806.794093750001,"end":7806.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7806.86159375,"end":7806.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7806.878468750001,"end":7809.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7819.8553437499995,"end":7821.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7821.593468750001,"end":7823.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8418.47909375,"end":8420.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8421.38159375,"end":8422.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8422.42784375,"end":8423.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8424.030968750001,"end":8424.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8429.464718750001,"end":8432.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8432.29971875,"end":8432.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8432.316593750002,"end":8434.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8433.49784375,"end":8433.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8436.09659375,"end":8436.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8436.13034375,"end":8436.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8436.14721875,"end":8436.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8436.46784375,"end":8436.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8436.754718750002,"end":8437.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8437.71659375,"end":8437.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8437.969718750002,"end":8438.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8439.10034375,"end":8440.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8441.05784375,"end":8441.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8442.188468750002,"end":8443.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8443.36971875,"end":8444.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8446.980968750002,"end":8447.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8447.774093750002,"end":8448.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8448.28034375,"end":8448.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8448.297218750002,"end":8448.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8448.31409375,"end":8480.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8449.680968750003,"end":8450.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8453.17409375,"end":8453.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8456.86971875,"end":8457.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8464.73346875,"end":8464.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8475.246593750002,"end":8475.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8475.347843750002,"end":8475.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8480.950343750003,"end":8497.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8497.437218750001,"end":8499.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8500.25534375,"end":8506.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8506.97159375,"end":8578.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8579.16284375,"end":8586.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8587.043468750002,"end":8590.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8590.28346875,"end":8599.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8599.83471875,"end":8603.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8601.606593750003,"end":8601.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8601.62346875,"end":8602.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8603.73284375,"end":8605.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8604.812843750002,"end":8608.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8607.00659375,"end":8611.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8610.870968750001,"end":8629.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8627.425343750001,"end":8628.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8628.606593750003,"end":8634.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8634.917843750001,"end":8638.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8635.305968750003,"end":8635.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8637.449093750001,"end":8647.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8639.929718750001,"end":8640.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8646.07221875,"end":8649.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8648.70471875,"end":8652.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8652.19784375,"end":8703.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8658.863468750002,"end":8663.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8704.071593750003,"end":8704.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8705.320343750001,"end":8708.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8707.176593750002,"end":8709.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8708.695343750001,"end":8708.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8709.03284375,"end":8709.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8709.066593750002,"end":8709.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8709.134093750003,"end":8709.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8710.703468750002,"end":8710.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8710.99034375,"end":8711.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8711.04096875,"end":8711.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8711.445968750002,"end":8711.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8711.969093750002,"end":8719.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8719.815968750001,"end":8720.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8719.90034375,"end":8720.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8721.11534375,"end":8727.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8725.03034375,"end":8725.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8728.169093750003,"end":8730.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8730.76784375,"end":8793.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8753.633468750002,"end":8754.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8768.06159375,"end":8768.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8769.917843750001,"end":8770.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8794.352843750003,"end":8827.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8802.149093750002,"end":8802.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8812.965968750003,"end":8814.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8827.95096875,"end":8844.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8843.695343750001,"end":8853.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8850.79971875,"end":8859.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8858.42721875,"end":8861.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8860.587218750003,"end":8874.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8861.66721875,"end":8862.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8864.097218750001,"end":8864.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8874.67784375,"end":8877.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8875.20096875,"end":8877.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8877.90096875,"end":8880.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8882.254718750002,"end":8882.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8884.38096875,"end":8884.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8885.37659375,"end":8937.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8937.503468750001,"end":8939.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8939.81534375,"end":8956.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8956.63971875,"end":8960.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8961.027218750001,"end":8966.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8966.309093750002,"end":8972.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8972.586593750002,"end":8973.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8974.206593750001,"end":8988.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8988.921593750001,"end":8990.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8990.81159375,"end":8994.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8991.33471875,"end":8991.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8994.55784375,"end":9000.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9000.09284375,"end":9009.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9011.88846875,"end":9013.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9014.149718750003,"end":9015.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9024.39284375,"end":9026.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9027.312218750001,"end":9027.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9032.05409375,"end":9032.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9034.332218750002,"end":9034.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9035.344718750002,"end":9035.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9036.492218750001,"end":9037.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9037.808468750001,"end":9038.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9038.702843750001,"end":9039.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9040.289093750001,"end":9041.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9042.17909375,"end":9042.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9044.237843750001,"end":9045.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9045.75659375,"end":9046.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9047.27534375,"end":9048.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9049.06409375,"end":9051.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9052.270343750002,"end":9060.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9061.079093750002,"end":9061.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9062.277218750001,"end":9062.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9062.56409375,"end":9063.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9063.30659375,"end":9064.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9065.09534375,"end":9066.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9067.32284375,"end":9067.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9068.082218750002,"end":9070.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9070.680968750003,"end":9073.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9073.85346875,"end":9074.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9075.304718750001,"end":9079.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9079.793468750002,"end":9081.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9082.274093750002,"end":9088.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9088.922843750002,"end":9095.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9096.077843750001,"end":9098.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9098.59221875,"end":9102.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9103.55346875,"end":9106.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9107.384093750003,"end":9108.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9109.206593750001,"end":9118.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9119.46659375,"end":9124.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9124.562843750002,"end":9131.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9132.86534375,"end":9135.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9135.46409375,"end":9139.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9140.66159375,"end":9142.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9143.19284375,"end":9143.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9144.863468750002,"end":9152.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9153.047843750002,"end":9153.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9155.258468750002,"end":9162.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9163.797218750002,"end":9167.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9168.285968750002,"end":9171.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9172.62284375,"end":9173.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9174.614093750002,"end":9175.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9176.63909375,"end":9180.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9181.043468750002,"end":9201.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9202.52534375,"end":9213.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9214.202843750001,"end":9216.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9217.78034375,"end":9219.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9220.26096875,"end":9232.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9233.254718750002,"end":9234.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9235.785968750002,"end":9238.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9238.941593750002,"end":9239.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9240.07221875,"end":9245.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9246.46784375,"end":9256.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9256.812218750001,"end":9260.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9261.38534375,"end":9277.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9278.445968750002,"end":9279.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9280.504718750002,"end":9281.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9281.78721875,"end":9301.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9302.25659375,"end":9305.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9305.749718750001,"end":9306.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9306.644093750001,"end":9314.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9315.55409375,"end":9323.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9324.83534375,"end":9332.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9333.10409375,"end":9336.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9337.356593750003,"end":9337.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9338.250968750002,"end":9341.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9342.28409375,"end":9346.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9346.33409375,"end":9357.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9357.82596875,"end":9362.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9362.601593750001,"end":9368.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9369.63846875,"end":9370.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9371.44409375,"end":9372.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9373.06409375,"end":9374.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9375.93284375,"end":9378.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9378.56534375,"end":9379.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9380.117843750002,"end":9381.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9382.598468750002,"end":9384.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9384.47159375,"end":9392.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9392.875343750002,"end":9396.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9395.355968750002,"end":9398.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9398.49471875,"end":9398.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9399.102218750002,"end":9401.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9401.44784375,"end":9401.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9401.49846875,"end":9401.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9401.54909375,"end":9413.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9404.02971875,"end":9404.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9406.949093750001,"end":9407.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9407.70846875,"end":9407.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9407.792843750001,"end":9407.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9409.800968750002,"end":9410.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9412.93971875,"end":9413.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9413.78346875,"end":9418.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9417.32721875,"end":9419.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9419.01471875,"end":9419.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9419.132843750001,"end":9419.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9419.554718750001,"end":9446.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9419.89221875,"end":9421.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9423.48659375,"end":9424.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9429.02159375,"end":9429.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9429.46034375,"end":9429.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9429.679718750001,"end":9430.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9430.06784375,"end":9430.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9445.980968750002,"end":9449.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9450.250343750002,"end":9464.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9453.60846875,"end":9456.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9456.19034375,"end":9456.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9456.44346875,"end":9456.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9456.848468750002,"end":9456.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9465.99471875,"end":9469.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9469.335968750001,"end":9481.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9474.887843750003,"end":9475.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9475.96784375,"end":9480.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9481.992218750001,"end":9482.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9482.363468750002,"end":9515.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9516.265343750001,"end":9536.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9537.22409375,"end":9538.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9538.86096875,"end":9539.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9540.19409375,"end":9553.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9545.10471875,"end":9546.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9546.977843750003,"end":9549.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9553.238468750002,"end":9553.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9553.390343750001,"end":9555.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9553.609718750002,"end":9553.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9554.031593750002,"end":9558.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9557.28846875,"end":9558.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9559.195343750001,"end":9560.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9559.27971875,"end":9592.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9566.367218750001,"end":9567.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9593.097218750001,"end":9623.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9594.210968750001,"end":9594.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9594.97034375,"end":9595.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9595.03784375,"end":9595.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9595.34159375,"end":9595.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9610.512218750002,"end":9612.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9612.60471875,"end":9612.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9615.574718750002,"end":9617.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9617.02596875,"end":9618.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9618.055343750002,"end":9618.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9618.07221875,"end":9618.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9618.12284375,"end":9618.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9618.24096875,"end":9618.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9618.257843750001,"end":9618.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9618.409718750001,"end":9618.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9620.02971875,"end":9620.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9620.856593750003,"end":9620.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9620.890343750001,"end":9625.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9623.97846875,"end":9624.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9624.012218750002,"end":9624.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9624.07971875,"end":9624.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9624.09659375,"end":9624.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9624.46784375,"end":9624.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9624.97409375,"end":9625.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9625.21034375,"end":9629.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9629.51346875,"end":9630.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9640.33034375,"end":9644.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9648.86909375,"end":9649.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9649.71284375,"end":9751.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9751.941593750002,"end":9765.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9760.24409375,"end":9760.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9765.188468750002,"end":9766.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9766.67346875,"end":9772.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9768.175343750001,"end":9768.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9772.10721875,"end":9804.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9804.60846875,"end":9847.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9847.62284375,"end":9865.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9855.68909375,"end":9855.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9855.97596875,"end":9856.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9857.22471875,"end":9857.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9865.476593750001,"end":9865.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9865.76346875,"end":9865.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9865.847843750002,"end":9865.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9865.93221875,"end":9889.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9889.793468750002,"end":9900.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9899.98596875,"end":9900.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9900.69471875,"end":9904.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9901.47096875,"end":9901.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9903.614093750002,"end":9909.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9906.70221875,"end":9920.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9911.22471875,"end":9911.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9920.62409375,"end":9923.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9922.39596875,"end":9922.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9922.581593750001,"end":9923.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9923.070968750002,"end":9924.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9923.25659375,"end":9923.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9923.324093750001,"end":9924.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9924.57284375,"end":9924.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9924.72471875,"end":9924.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9924.74159375,"end":9924.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9924.79221875,"end":9924.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9924.89346875,"end":9924.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9924.99471875,"end":9925.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9925.24784375,"end":9925.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9925.29846875,"end":9925.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9925.450343750003,"end":9925.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9925.973468750002,"end":9927.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9936.16596875,"end":9937.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9937.785968750002,"end":9940.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9938.24159375,"end":9938.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9940.38471875,"end":9940.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9944.485343750002,"end":9944.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9944.957843750002,"end":9945.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9945.34596875,"end":9955.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9948.45096875,"end":9948.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9955.72409375,"end":9961.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9961.52909375,"end":9964.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9965.07284375,"end":9970.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9970.101593750001,"end":9973.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9970.30409375,"end":9971.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9973.105343750001,"end":9977.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9978.50534375,"end":9979.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9979.956593750001,"end":9983.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9983.972843750002,"end":9984.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9985.137218750002,"end":9986.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9986.976593750001,"end":10002.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10002.535343750002,"end":10003.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10004.08784375,"end":10014.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10014.28034375,"end":10018.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10018.53284375,"end":10022.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10022.160968750002,"end":10022.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10022.937218750001,"end":10023.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10023.91596875,"end":10025.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10025.012843750003,"end":10030.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10030.800968750002,"end":10031.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10032.285968750002,"end":10041.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10038.090968750003,"end":10038.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10039.829093750002,"end":10050.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10046.59596875,"end":10046.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10046.730968750002,"end":10046.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10050.848468750002,"end":10053.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10054.30784375,"end":10060.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10057.851593750001,"end":10058.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10060.73721875,"end":10063.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10063.30221875,"end":10063.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10063.808468750001,"end":10064.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10064.11221875,"end":10068.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10069.22534375,"end":10069.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10069.42784375,"end":10070.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10071.58784375,"end":10074.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10073.528468750003,"end":10075.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10074.60846875,"end":10079.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10076.937218750001,"end":10079.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10079.957843750002,"end":10080.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10080.109718750002,"end":10096.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10092.614093750002,"end":10092.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10092.63096875,"end":10092.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10092.64784375,"end":10092.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10092.917843750001,"end":10092.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10096.64721875,"end":10097.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10097.96346875,"end":10099.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10098.43596875,"end":10103.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10104.19034375,"end":10113.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10113.555968750003,"end":10122.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10122.972218750001,"end":10133.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10132.202843750001,"end":10134.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10133.856593750003,"end":10140.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10137.77159375,"end":10137.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10141.011593750001,"end":10144.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10145.348468750002,"end":10146.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10146.664718750002,"end":10150.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10150.90034375,"end":10156.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10156.55346875,"end":10160.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10160.40096875,"end":10165.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10166.003468750001,"end":10169.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10169.547218750002,"end":10188.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10170.137843750003,"end":10170.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10177.52909375,"end":10178.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10188.734093750001,"end":10192.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10191.87284375,"end":10192.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10192.699718750002,"end":10211.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10192.98659375,"end":10194.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10211.76846875,"end":10212.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10212.96659375,"end":10221.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10213.03409375,"end":10213.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10215.12659375,"end":10217.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10220.20596875,"end":10220.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10221.67409375,"end":10226.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10222.56846875,"end":10225.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10225.84221875,"end":10232.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10226.129093750002,"end":10226.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10231.17471875,"end":10231.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10231.59659375,"end":10231.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10231.613468750002,"end":10231.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10232.22096875,"end":10256.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10257.550343750001,"end":10270.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10269.71721875,"end":10276.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10270.98284375,"end":10272.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10272.653468750003,"end":10273.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10275.589718750001,"end":10286.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10285.191593750002,"end":10292.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10286.71034375,"end":10290.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10292.07659375,"end":10301.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10294.169093750003,"end":10294.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10295.468468750001,"end":10297.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10300.125968750002,"end":10306.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10303.382843750001,"end":10312.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10311.567218750002,"end":10315.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10317.55784375,"end":10318.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10320.949718750002,"end":10321.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10321.82721875,"end":10324.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10324.324718750002,"end":10325.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10325.50596875,"end":10339.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10340.237843750001,"end":10342.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10343.34284375,"end":10364.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10365.145343750002,"end":10367.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10368.55409375,"end":10372.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10373.110343750002,"end":10373.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10374.34221875,"end":10375.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10376.45159375,"end":10377.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10378.155968750001,"end":10379.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10379.20221875,"end":10379.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10379.25284375,"end":10379.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10379.742218750001,"end":10379.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10379.99534375,"end":10382.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10382.35784375,"end":10385.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10386.03659375,"end":10386.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10386.120968750001,"end":10386.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10386.188468750002,"end":10386.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10386.40784375,"end":10386.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10386.492218750001,"end":10386.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10386.52596875,"end":10386.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10386.542843750001,"end":10386.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10386.559718750003,"end":10386.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10386.593468750001,"end":10386.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10386.644093750001,"end":10388.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10388.04471875,"end":10390.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10388.078468750002,"end":10388.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10389.79971875,"end":10391.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10390.74471875,"end":10392.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10392.972218750001,"end":10393.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10393.680968750003,"end":10394.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10394.86221875,"end":10396.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10395.047843750002,"end":10396.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10396.212218750003,"end":10396.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10396.97159375,"end":10405.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10402.86096875,"end":10407.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10406.117843750002,"end":10406.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10408.56471875,"end":10412.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10413.120968750001,"end":10422.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10423.54971875,"end":10430.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10431.91971875,"end":10440.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10432.695968750002,"end":10435.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10436.847218750001,"end":10443.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10443.563468750002,"end":10444.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10444.91346875,"end":10447.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10447.47846875,"end":10447.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10448.102843750003,"end":10449.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10449.23346875,"end":10459.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10460.45534375,"end":10461.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10462.04159375,"end":10462.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10462.649093750002,"end":10464.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10465.04534375,"end":10467.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10466.95221875,"end":10474.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10474.64721875,"end":10475.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10475.22096875,"end":10475.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10475.879093750002,"end":10476.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10476.790343750003,"end":10479.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10479.55784375,"end":10483.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10483.77659375,"end":10485.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10494.914093750001,"end":10500.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10501.562843750002,"end":10503.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10505.207843750002,"end":10549.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10525.64346875,"end":10526.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10528.259093750003,"end":10528.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10530.149093750002,"end":10530.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10538.70471875,"end":10538.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10549.67346875,"end":10562.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10562.71784375,"end":10563.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10564.253468750001,"end":10567.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10567.93221875,"end":10577.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10577.93909375,"end":10586.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10587.38909375,"end":10588.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10589.093468750001,"end":10591.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10591.945343750001,"end":10593.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10593.430343750002,"end":10593.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10594.24034375,"end":10594.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10594.83096875,"end":10636.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10638.18284375,"end":10640.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10640.81534375,"end":10648.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10648.864718750003,"end":10651.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10652.543468750002,"end":10687.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10687.59284375,"end":10689.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10690.47846875,"end":10698.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10699.35471875,"end":10702.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10703.219093750002,"end":10753.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10753.28721875,"end":10782.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10782.784718750001,"end":10787.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10789.58534375,"end":10790.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10791.74534375,"end":10791.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10791.762218750002,"end":10791.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10791.880343750003,"end":10792.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10792.032218750002,"end":10792.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10792.184093750002,"end":10792.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10792.335968750001,"end":10792.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10792.69034375,"end":10792.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10793.652218750001,"end":10794.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10793.669093750003,"end":10795.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10795.019093750001,"end":10795.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10795.727843750003,"end":10798.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10799.052218750003,"end":10801.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10801.70159375,"end":10803.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10808.24909375,"end":10810.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10811.55659375,"end":10812.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10815.99471875,"end":10816.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10817.41221875,"end":10819.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10819.707218750002,"end":10820.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10820.922218750002,"end":10822.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10823.605343750001,"end":10829.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10829.477843750003,"end":10832.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10832.71784375,"end":10834.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10834.77659375,"end":10836.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10838.539718750002,"end":10839.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10840.868468750003,"end":10842.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10842.910343750002,"end":10843.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10844.78346875,"end":10846.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10848.20909375,"end":10850.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10850.79096875,"end":10855.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10855.667843750001,"end":10857.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10858.18221875,"end":10859.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10860.004718750002,"end":10864.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10864.628468750001,"end":10866.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10867.26096875,"end":10870.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10870.51784375,"end":10874.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10875.141593750002,"end":10878.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10879.039718750002,"end":10882.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10883.66346875,"end":10885.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10885.90784375,"end":10888.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10889.907218750002,"end":10890.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10891.88159375,"end":10893.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10895.003468750001,"end":10896.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10897.062218750001,"end":10899.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10900.16721875,"end":10901.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10902.833468750003,"end":10905.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10905.38159375,"end":10907.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10907.86221875,"end":10911.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10911.33846875,"end":10914.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10914.29159375,"end":10919.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10919.92784375,"end":10923.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10924.72034375,"end":10928.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10929.715343750002,"end":10936.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10936.70159375,"end":10937.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10938.55784375,"end":10944.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10944.582218750002,"end":10947.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10948.176593750002,"end":10950.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10951.349093750003,"end":10954.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10955.230343750001,"end":10958.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10960.191593750002,"end":10967.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10968.797843750002,"end":10975.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10977.62346875,"end":10980.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10980.84659375,"end":10984.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10985.774093750002,"end":10987.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10987.242218750001,"end":10993.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10993.840343750002,"end":10994.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10994.633468750002,"end":10997.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10998.362843750001,"end":11016.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11008.69034375,"end":11008.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11016.030968750001,"end":11016.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11016.18284375,"end":11016.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11016.48659375,"end":11024.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11024.55284375,"end":11026.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11026.78034375,"end":11028.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11028.906593750002,"end":11032.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11033.395343750002,"end":11037.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11038.339718750001,"end":11042.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11044.44846875,"end":11047.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11048.19471875,"end":11048.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11050.08471875,"end":11050.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11051.67096875,"end":11053.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11053.61159375,"end":11055.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11056.51409375,"end":11061.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11061.863468750002,"end":11062.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11063.618468750003,"end":11065.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11065.980968750002,"end":11066.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11067.63471875,"end":11069.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11070.28409375,"end":11073.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11073.92909375,"end":11073.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11074.671593750001,"end":11074.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11074.688468750002,"end":11079.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11079.97034375,"end":11084.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11085.235343750002,"end":11086.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11087.10846875,"end":11088.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11088.036593750003,"end":11089.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11089.555343750002,"end":11089.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11089.57221875,"end":11091.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11091.69846875,"end":11092.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11093.402843750002,"end":11100.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11101.300343750001,"end":11103.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11103.730343750001,"end":11105.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11105.67096875,"end":11106.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11106.700343750003,"end":11108.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11109.87284375,"end":11111.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11111.695343750001,"end":11113.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11114.47971875,"end":11117.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11118.27659375,"end":11126.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11126.055968750003,"end":11127.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11128.418468750002,"end":11129.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11129.71784375,"end":11132.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11132.97471875,"end":11135.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11135.99534375,"end":11136.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11136.332843750002,"end":11137.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11137.109093750001,"end":11137.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11137.78409375,"end":11138.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11138.03721875,"end":11138.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11138.18909375,"end":11138.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11138.52659375,"end":11145.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11145.95159375,"end":11148.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11158.962218750003,"end":11167.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11167.61909375,"end":11168.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11169.05346875,"end":11169.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11169.20534375,"end":11169.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11170.285343750002,"end":11172.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11173.086593750002,"end":11174.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11174.655968750001,"end":11175.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11179.17846875,"end":11180.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11182.43534375,"end":11183.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11183.937218750001,"end":11185.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11186.50221875,"end":11189.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11189.961593750002,"end":11192.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11192.62784375,"end":11193.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11194.450343750003,"end":11196.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11197.065968750001,"end":11197.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11198.922218750002,"end":11199.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11200.187843750002,"end":11200.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11201.099093750003,"end":11202.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11204.102843750003,"end":11204.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11205.030968750001,"end":11206.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11206.769093750001,"end":11208.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11209.28346875,"end":11210.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11211.49409375,"end":11212.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11212.40534375,"end":11219.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11220.015968750002,"end":11221.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11222.024093750002,"end":11243.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11228.63909375,"end":11231.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11231.28846875,"end":11231.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11243.60721875,"end":11245.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11245.919093750003,"end":11247.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11247.690968750001,"end":11250.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11250.42471875,"end":11251.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11251.63971875,"end":11252.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11252.04471875,"end":11253.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11253.00659375,"end":11255.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11254.710968750001,"end":11260.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11260.262843750003,"end":11263.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11263.300343750001,"end":11269.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11270.910968750002,"end":11273.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11274.47159375,"end":11275.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11275.450343750003,"end":11276.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11277.458468750003,"end":11278.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11278.58909375,"end":11279.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11279.88846875,"end":11280.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11280.833468750003,"end":11282.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11283.246593750002,"end":11284.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11285.524718750003,"end":11286.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11287.06034375,"end":11288.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11290.958468750003,"end":11291.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11292.257843750001,"end":11292.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11294.519093750001,"end":11295.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11296.847843750002,"end":11297.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11298.332843750002,"end":11299.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11299.919093750003,"end":11301.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11301.437843750002,"end":11301.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11303.09159375,"end":11304.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11304.644093750001,"end":11316.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11316.355343750001,"end":11318.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11318.76846875,"end":11319.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11319.629093750002,"end":11321.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11321.687843750002,"end":11322.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11323.76346875,"end":11324.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11326.024718750003,"end":11328.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11329.36596875,"end":11331.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11332.21784375,"end":11332.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11333.027843750002,"end":11333.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11333.80409375,"end":11334.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11334.614093750002,"end":11335.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11335.305968750003,"end":11335.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11335.96409375,"end":11339.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11340.18284375,"end":11340.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11340.53721875,"end":11341.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11343.794093750003,"end":11344.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11344.890968750002,"end":11346.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11346.747218750003,"end":11348.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11350.40909375,"end":11350.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11351.050343750001,"end":11351.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11352.113468750002,"end":11352.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11353.36221875,"end":11353.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11354.05409375,"end":11355.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11356.21409375,"end":11357.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11358.05346875,"end":11359.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11360.26409375,"end":11361.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11361.95159375,"end":11363.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11364.73596875,"end":11365.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11366.052218750003,"end":11366.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11367.21659375,"end":11368.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11368.937843750002,"end":11369.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11369.64659375,"end":11371.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11373.07221875,"end":11373.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11373.81471875,"end":11375.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11376.19409375,"end":11377.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11378.843468750001,"end":11386.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11387.58471875,"end":11389.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11391.449093750001,"end":11392.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11393.86221875,"end":11395.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11396.258468750002,"end":11397.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11397.743468750003,"end":11400.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11404.155968750001,"end":11405.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11405.60721875,"end":11406.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11406.50159375,"end":11412.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11413.53846875,"end":11415.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11414.36534375,"end":11424.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11423.64659375,"end":11425.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11426.27909375,"end":11429.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11429.40096875,"end":11430.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11430.379718750002,"end":11430.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11430.49784375,"end":11430.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11430.531593750002,"end":11432.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11432.08409375,"end":11432.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11432.809718750003,"end":11433.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11434.024718750003,"end":11436.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11436.47159375,"end":11439.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11439.239093750002,"end":11439.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11440.21784375,"end":11441.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11441.399093750002,"end":11443.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11443.89659375,"end":11444.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11444.90909375,"end":11445.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11446.69784375,"end":11449.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11449.92096875,"end":11454.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11454.07221875,"end":11455.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11456.45159375,"end":11460.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11461.04159375,"end":11461.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11462.03721875,"end":11464.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11464.58534375,"end":11465.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11465.969093750002,"end":11466.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11467.15034375,"end":11468.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11468.719718750002,"end":11474.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11476.17846875,"end":11481.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11482.70909375,"end":11485.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11485.122218750003,"end":11485.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11486.20221875,"end":11496.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11497.00221875,"end":11498.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11498.976593750001,"end":11509.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11509.472843750002,"end":11512.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11513.99534375,"end":11514.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11514.974093750003,"end":11521.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11516.762843750003,"end":11517.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11522.04471875,"end":11524.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11525.06534375,"end":11526.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11525.149718750003,"end":11525.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11526.921593750001,"end":11530.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11530.296593750001,"end":11533.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11533.75596875,"end":11534.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11534.684093750002,"end":11535.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11534.70096875,"end":11536.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11536.50659375,"end":11543.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11543.965343750002,"end":11544.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11544.03284375,"end":11544.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11544.977843750003,"end":11545.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11545.028468750003,"end":11545.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11545.973468750002,"end":11546.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11546.024093750002,"end":11546.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11546.969093750002,"end":11547.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11547.036593750003,"end":11547.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11547.964718750001,"end":11548.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11548.032218750002,"end":11549.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11549.399093750002,"end":11550.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11551.137218750002,"end":11552.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11553.01034375,"end":11554.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11556.047843750002,"end":11557.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11557.667843750001,"end":11558.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11559.33846875,"end":11559.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11560.249718750001,"end":11562.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11563.23659375,"end":11563.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11564.02971875,"end":11564.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11566.24034375,"end":11566.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11568.40034375,"end":11570.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11570.52659375,"end":11571.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11571.606593750003,"end":11574.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11574.35721875,"end":11575.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11575.96034375,"end":11578.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11578.52534375,"end":11580.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11581.731593750003,"end":11585.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11585.612843750001,"end":11589.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11590.50659375,"end":11591.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11592.49784375,"end":11596.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11596.61534375,"end":11599.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11599.804718750001,"end":11601.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11602.082843750002,"end":11603.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11604.597218750001,"end":11605.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11606.04846875,"end":11606.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11607.28034375,"end":11608.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11608.91721875,"end":11609.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11610.149093750002,"end":11611.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11612.781593750002,"end":11613.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11615.937218750001,"end":11625.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11624.45909375,"end":11625.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11626.41659375,"end":11631.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11631.462218750003,"end":11633.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11633.31846875,"end":11638.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11639.106593750003,"end":11640.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11640.794093750003,"end":11642.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11643.59534375,"end":11646.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11646.14346875,"end":11646.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11646.160343750002,"end":11661.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11661.398468750001,"end":11668.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11668.03034375,"end":11668.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11668.35096875,"end":11677.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11668.469093750002,"end":11668.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11677.581593750001,"end":11677.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11678.25659375,"end":11680.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11680.821593750003,"end":11681.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11681.83409375,"end":11682.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11682.99846875,"end":11685.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11685.495968750001,"end":11687.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11688.297218750002,"end":11692.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11692.00971875,"end":11699.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11699.535968750002,"end":11725.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11713.930343750002,"end":11715.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11717.558468750001,"end":11717.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11724.105968750002,"end":11724.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11725.540343750003,"end":11728.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11729.40471875,"end":11730.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11729.489093750002,"end":11732.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11731.125968750002,"end":11734.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11735.074718750002,"end":11738.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11737.352843750003,"end":11743.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11744.32221875,"end":11744.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11744.457218750002,"end":11744.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11744.76096875,"end":11753.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11753.789093750001,"end":11753.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11754.109718750002,"end":11754.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11754.12659375,"end":11755.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11755.03784375,"end":11757.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11757.61971875,"end":11765.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11757.653468750003,"end":11758.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11759.374718750001,"end":11759.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11759.864093750002,"end":11760.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11760.927218750003,"end":11761.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11764.977218750002,"end":11771.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11767.47471875,"end":11769.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11769.58409375,"end":11769.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11769.90471875,"end":11769.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11769.972218750001,"end":11771.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11771.01846875,"end":11771.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11771.54159375,"end":11772.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11771.659718750001,"end":11772.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11772.739718750003,"end":11778.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11772.874718750001,"end":11773.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11778.308468750001,"end":11783.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11783.708468750003,"end":11784.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11783.809718750003,"end":11785.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11784.535343750002,"end":11784.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11785.88534375,"end":11787.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11786.13846875,"end":11792.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11792.247218750003,"end":11810.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11810.489093750002,"end":11812.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11813.35784375,"end":11814.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11814.74159375,"end":11816.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11817.120968750001,"end":11817.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11817.509093750003,"end":11820.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11818.52159375,"end":11818.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11820.15846875,"end":11823.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11822.16659375,"end":11824.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11824.42784375,"end":11825.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11824.461593750002,"end":11824.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11826.16596875,"end":11828.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11828.899718750003,"end":11828.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11828.91659375,"end":11829.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11829.01784375,"end":11830.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11831.32971875,"end":11832.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11831.59971875,"end":11832.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11832.679718750001,"end":11833.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11832.797843750002,"end":11839.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11835.599093750003,"end":11843.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11839.800968750002,"end":11840.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11843.41221875,"end":11848.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11845.454093750002,"end":11845.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11846.26409375,"end":11849.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11850.077843750001,"end":11850.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11850.719093750002,"end":11851.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11851.42784375,"end":11851.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11851.630343750003,"end":11851.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11852.37284375,"end":11854.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11853.16596875,"end":11854.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11854.97159375,"end":11855.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11855.39346875,"end":11855.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11856.33846875,"end":11859.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11858.160968750002,"end":11862.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11860.202843750001,"end":11860.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11863.172843750002,"end":11863.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11864.08409375,"end":11864.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11865.41721875,"end":11868.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11866.530968750001,"end":11866.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11868.690968750001,"end":11870.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11870.83409375,"end":11872.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11872.926593750002,"end":11873.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11873.770343750002,"end":11875.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11875.47471875,"end":11876.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11876.79096875,"end":11879.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11876.84159375,"end":11876.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11877.617843750002,"end":11878.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11879.96346875,"end":11883.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11883.405968750001,"end":11884.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11885.160968750002,"end":11886.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11886.17346875,"end":11886.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11888.063468750002,"end":11888.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11888.097218750001,"end":11888.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11888.87346875,"end":11889.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11889.329093750002,"end":11889.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11889.66659375,"end":11890.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11891.18534375,"end":11892.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11892.24846875,"end":11892.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11892.906593750002,"end":11893.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11895.10034375,"end":11898.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11898.812843750002,"end":11902.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11903.06534375,"end":11910.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11910.895343750002,"end":11915.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11916.210968750001,"end":11918.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11919.130343750003,"end":11920.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11920.78409375,"end":11929.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11929.99784375,"end":11938.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11939.532218750002,"end":11940.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11940.98346875,"end":11943.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11943.93659375,"end":11944.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11944.72971875,"end":11945.15159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1162.588,"end":1174.455,"text":"請主任秘書報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數好 我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議的一書"},{"start":1176.618,"end":1203.447,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第十五次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年六月四日星期三九時四分至十四時三十分地點群選樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十四人列席委員黃國昌委員等二十一人列席官員行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝公務預算處處長徐永毅財政部長莊翠雲內政部長次吳唐安紀其"},{"start":1204.967,"end":1222.964,"text":"單位相關人員 法務部立法院預算中心及法治局及全國各縣市府局處各機關單位代表 主席賴昭吉文事保報告事項依循如常會議事錄決定議事錄確定 散會動議議案委員吳秉瑞等提出散會動議提案人吳秉瑞 郭國文"},{"start":1224.225,"end":1243.914,"text":"代會員李坤誠、鍾嘉斌等委員,表決結果,贊成者5人,反對者7人,贊成者少數本案不通過,而邀請行政院主計總署陳主計長淑芝財政部長崔雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就近10年中央政府依《財政收支劃分法》、《地方制度法》等地方"},{"start":1245.254,"end":1274.153,"text":"政府制補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展的成效進行專案報告並被質詢報告及討論事項和並詢問臺灣民眾黨黨團黃三三說明提案要旨行政院主計總處主計長陳淑芝財政部莊部長崔雲分別提出報告及回應委員提案後紀委員林德福等二十人提出質詢均經臺北市政府劉副市長台中市政府鄭副市長主計總處陳主計長臺北市政府林副市長財政部莊部長"},{"start":1275.134,"end":1292.768,"text":"台南市政府葉副市長、苗栗縣政府邱副縣長、桃園市政府溫秘書長、連江縣政府張秘書長、新竹市政府張秘書長、內政部吳長志、新竹縣政府黃局長、雲林縣政府曾秘書長、宜蘭縣政府吳秘書長、法務部洪司長及鄉後人員李達富"},{"start":1294.932,"end":1322.559,"text":"及說明報告決定一報告說明及拿完畢二委員質詢及未及答覆或請補充資訊請相互會議周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三委員邱正均與施民出侵權王美惠陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相互會議書面答覆討論事項本院台灣民眾黨有建議行政院主席走出行為各縣市政府將召喚便利給地方政府的一般性補助款至一百一十四年度五月"},{"start":1323.959,"end":1352.751,"text":"5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為分配分配數以嚴重影響立法院通案三檢促進政府資源有效配置之決議新省中央政府預算編列腐爛原編列3兆1千億元立法院通案三檢後仍有2兆9千億元之數為中華民國史上最高制中央政府總預算本月本月職權省業預算以督促中央政府增進財務效能減少不當經濟支出"},{"start":1353.291,"end":1374.805,"text":"甚至浪費之目的,中央政府不思檢討如何有效節用分配資源,卻亦圖抗地方政府之慨。請說一般性補助款補助事項,將指甲式準用指甲式規定之極限式基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育社會福利及基本設施等未改為未分配數,此舉不但違反"},{"start":1375.625,"end":1404.357,"text":"此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨更將嚴重影響地方財政局運作對地方長期建設造成劇烈衝擊原建請院會作成決議行政院主席總書院醫理法院審議中華民國114年入庄政府總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整並立即將一般性補助款逐額撥付地方政府請供決案決議令則其繼續審查 宣布完畢"},{"start":1406.127,"end":1432.606,"text":"好向各位報告請問對上一次的議事錄有疑沒有我們議事錄確定那麼請議事錄人員宣讀今日的議程邀請省紀部陳省紀長瑞敏行政院主計總處陳主紀長淑芝衛生福利部就最近疫情再起有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑疫苗各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施進行專題報告宣讀完畢"},{"start":1437.216,"end":1463.632,"text":"好 我們原例介紹委員跟議會的官員首先介紹吳秉樂委員林德輔委員省紀部的陳省紀長以及第三廳的周廳長衛護部的邱部長疾管署的莊署長食藥署的王滬署長"},{"start":1466.348,"end":1468.31,"text":"健保署的陳副署長中醫藥師的蘇書長護署醫療及社會福利機構管理委員會王副執行長醫術師的郭忠文委員還有現在在場的我們的陳蘇之主席長好 歡迎"},{"start":1492.458,"end":1511.504,"text":"今日議程安排邀請省紀部陳省紀長若明行政院主計總署陳主紀長署之衛生福利部邱太元部長就最近疫苗再起有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩"},{"start":1512.944,"end":1525.91,"text":"疫苗各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施進行專題報告我想這個順序因為今天衛福部長來我們就先請衛福部長給我們做報告好不好請"},{"start":1534.664,"end":1556.076,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生今天大案第11屆第三會期財政委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸持久近期新患疫情再起本部針對快篩試劑、疫苗、貴士藥品的整備與相關醫療機構應用措施提出專欄報告敬請各位委員不吝"},{"start":1557.045,"end":1578.914,"text":"不應指教那我們在114年COVID的第22週COVID的一個門舊診人次的確都有比上禮拜上升的42%住院也上升了18所以我們也會延進持續的來監測後續疫情的發展即時採用策略那我們在本部也持有"},{"start":1580.576,"end":1605.471,"text":"持續透過多元管道來宣導民眾要注意的防疫的一個作為同時也鼓勵大家合乎條件的應該趕快去打疫苗所以大概疫苗的一個施打力的確是有提高那在快篩試劑的供應及通路方面那基本上"},{"start":1607.346,"end":1627.207,"text":"我們已經在出貨量在出貨量未來的兩週會業者的預估生產量家用快篩試劑可以達140萬劑專用快篩試劑可達21萬劑這高於目前預估的需求那也跟那個快篩的通路部件方面"},{"start":1628.188,"end":1654.44,"text":"建立了親族,那也請藥師公會、藝材公會、聯手藥局超商、聯手藥莊每天我們都會來督導他們的一個跟他們互動,這個鋪路的一個匹配性讓我們的民眾能夠就近就買得到快篩那在醫療整備方面,的確是我們每日都監測集中症的一個量能目前來講,顯示集中症的量能尚屬足夠"},{"start":1655.68,"end":1665.302,"text":"我們也為了在5月26號提醒各縣市衛生局注意轄區裡面的呆床狀況跟強化院內調度狀況我們5月29號也發函給全國的醫療機構、醫師公會、診所協會等來把疫情的現況、趨勢跟我們應該注意事項希望衛生局能夠強化我們轄線、轄內的病床調度等等"},{"start":1682.826,"end":1700.852,"text":"那也呼籲民眾如果有就醫需求先到基層診所來就醫那好像到六月底到七月初是高峰可能會急診會用篩所以我們也啟動了六區的應變中心協助轉診分流那以外呢我們六月五號今天也會跟"},{"start":1701.947,"end":1717.866,"text":"地方政府衛生局六區的應變中心還有各個14個集中症的網路召開會議來確認一個分流的一個系統那本部的21家部立醫院因為它分部在前骨所以我們也啟動加開COVID的特別門診醫院診希望能夠"},{"start":1719.087,"end":1743.237,"text":"減輕醫學中心的一個成效這個效果也很好健保署也積極促進基層醫療讓落實分級醫療的一個制度讓民眾能夠在社區就可以得到初步的照顧這樣減緩醫院的一個壓力目前新冠的一個檢驗健保指數是150點如果醫療院所有相關的一個建議"},{"start":1748.579,"end":1772.907,"text":"我們都可以行政的整首項目流程來向健保署來申請那在醫院在藥物方面我們現在目前的藥物瑞德西韋還有庫存20萬劑口服抗病毒藥物庫存有43萬劑其實在每一波上面的經驗每一波大概一波疫情大概18萬劑所以我們40萬個"},{"start":1777.25,"end":1790.982,"text":"那另外我們還有留有10萬人份的開口合約莫拉皮拉維還有庫存8000多那有新進的一個Zocoma這個跟莫拉皮拉維是一樣的"},{"start":1792.664,"end":1809.396,"text":"藥物作用,這個也有5000人份上有1.5萬人合一,僅足以應付目前疫情的狀況那為了妥善的應用此波的疫情,本部也以6月2號邀請相關的醫療醫事團體召開應用策略"},{"start":1810.317,"end":1826.66,"text":"聆聽實務的建言,持續公私協力,結合醫界的力量推動各項防治策略,共同守護國人健康安全本部曾大院各委員指教及監督,在此敬致謝審,並請各位委員繼續予以支持,謝謝"},{"start":1840.93,"end":1842.033,"text":"請站起來 請站一旁邊"},{"start":1850.777,"end":1868.963,"text":"所準備的快篩試劑疫苗各式藥品及相關醫療機構應應措施深感榮幸諸檢要報告之下 正為應應嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎疫情編列肺炎特別預算 預算規模為8,393億結算審核結果 其中房住經費審定實現是2,269億餘元肺炎特別預算結束後 疾管屬於"},{"start":1877.385,"end":1900.043,"text":"各公務預算編列的相關繁殖預算用以補充疫苗基金辦理疫苗採購及接種業務採購及準備抗病毒藥物及防疫預支等及其國內疫情除息升溫及疾管時預估疫情將於6月底至7月初達高峰"},{"start":1900.743,"end":1908.727,"text":"珠江衛福部整備情形說明如處疫苗截至114年5月底至採購聯同受證疫苗合計9,287萬一劑已到後8,873萬一劑剩餘307萬一劑截至114年6月1日至疫苗累計接種"},{"start":1922.093,"end":1939.624,"text":"兩千兩百萬一億人次 全國接種百分之九點一二快篩試劑 機關值前離一百一十四年四月初本土疫情 辦理家用快篩試劑的採購及徵用以前是配花完盡"},{"start":1940.504,"end":1961.208,"text":"近期國內疫情除夕升溫食藥署已請相關業者擴大產能另於食藥署官網公布將快篩機換色通路資訊連結供各界查詢篩看病毒藥物機關署除夕整備抗病毒藥物截至114年5月抵止累計採購口服藥物280萬人份"},{"start":1969.349,"end":1987.683,"text":"自設藥物105萬一劑,上一庫存貝維拉45萬一人次,最多稀有20萬一劑。即集管室說明,藥物均定定開口,合約可交貨補充,並將4個配置點使用情形調度管理。"},{"start":1989.945,"end":2001.89,"text":"4.醫療機構因應措施國內疫情 近期國內疫情疫情激增 病患人數直徑增加 衛福部以免入監測及準就診人數等集中症醫療量能指標將加強醫院內調傳機制及集中"},{"start":2008.432,"end":2029.667,"text":"正轉轉與分流是本部查核情形本部歷年除夕針對政府的房住及私困振興相關施政作為辦理查核並於109-11年度總結算審核報告會員特別結算審核報告分別提出54項及18項的重要審核意見本部當"},{"start":2033.409,"end":2048.364,"text":"梗系治癒衛福部因應疫情相關環促作為自辦理情形以上報告請請主席 各位委員 女士 先生 主教 謝謝好 謝謝陳審計長的報告下一位請請這院主計總書的陳 陳主計長沒有報告沒有好那我們現在就"},{"start":2057.828,"end":2084.201,"text":"開始詢答做一下的宣告每位出席委員發言六分鐘 必要的時候延長兩分鐘因為今天我們前面做了其他議程列席委員四分鐘今天早上十一點十點半好了 十點半來截止登記現在依要登記的順序請登記立委的林德烏委員自選"},{"start":2100.075,"end":2106.063,"text":"謝謝主席是不是來邀請衛福部邱部長還有食藥署王副署長部長你好"},{"start":2117.319,"end":2140.078,"text":"還有食藥署我想今天早上報紙有頭版餐飲人員盡早前在碰食而且整個食安新制從六萬可以滑到兩億小吃攤商怨說政策憑空想像"},{"start":2141.7,"end":2157.256,"text":"那我想我幾個問題要請教第一個我想國人是重視食安的問題民眾在小吃攤、早餐、消費時常發現店家早前食早前後晚沒有洗手就直接接觸食物"},{"start":2158.377,"end":2174.631,"text":"那衛福部食藥署昨天發布修正食品良好衛生規範的準則特別針對夜市小吃攤還有摸前後再摸食物等這些行為做一些處罰"},{"start":2176.172,"end":2194.741,"text":"由於未洗手繼續處理食物容易造成汙染那違法者可處新台幣六萬元到兩億以下的罰款那我要請問高額罰金引起民眾熱議那我請問衛福部新規範有沒有宣導期"},{"start":2199.031,"end":2219.268,"text":"好 謝謝委員的隨行 我想我們希望跟業者一起來維護我們人們的食安有沒有宣討期我們以輔導先行一定以輔導先行 請大家安心法令檢討時有沒有徵詢過相關這些攤販職業工會他們的看法跟意見"},{"start":2224.674,"end":2246.356,"text":"這個部分請王副市長報告委員這個都有經過相關預告程序那你有沒有跟他們溝通過這個我們都有收到意見以後都有做相關的收納意見而已沒有溝通就對了因為很多攤商攤販他是只有一個人你像夜市裡面有很多就是一個人在作業那其實"},{"start":2247.617,"end":2275.074,"text":"我認為事前的溝通很重要不是說我們不是反對問題就是說今天這是現實的問題你很多夜市的攤商甚至於有很多都是一人在處理一人也要找錢那你當然做一些告示讓他知道說要提醒找錢的時候要洗手甚至要把手擦乾淨再做食物等等"},{"start":2275.894,"end":2288.898,"text":"我是不反對問題是你一定要有一個緩衝期而且要經過溝通協調才來實施我認為這才是正道部長你認不認同我認同我認為不是我們講實施就做因為你要有點緩衝而且讓這些業者知道"},{"start":2298.001,"end":2323.81,"text":"而且告訴他們說這是食安問題老百姓大家都重視我們不是反對只不過是你一定要有一個宣導緩衝然後提醒大家就這個東西要注意部長因為媒體報導新冠疫情升溫快篩抗病毒藥物等等這些防疫的物資出現供貨不及的這些問題"},{"start":2325.29,"end":2343.38,"text":"那疾管署副署長羅益君日前也表示說目前的疫苗與藥物供應這個是穩定的但藥事公會理事長黃清順呼籲政府應穩定快篩與藥品的供應那我請問會務部"},{"start":2345.482,"end":2363.618,"text":"這個端午連假後防疫物資抗病毒這些藥劑是否都已經陸續補足順利的撲霍到基層喔有沒有好 是的我們的庫存量是絕對沒有問題庫存量那你有沒有撲到基層嘛因為很多人要是到這些第一線去買買不到"},{"start":2365.954,"end":2376.179,"text":"這個才是問題啊不是你們庫存量的問題啊委員所提到的是快篩啦加用快篩的問題對啊疫苗跟那個藥物是沒有問題比如說我們的藥物它可能還有45萬人次"},{"start":2384.102,"end":2390.947,"text":"一波疫情過去大概用了18萬人次所以這個部藥物是沒有問題疫苗還有300萬劑還一直希望大家能夠趕快來打那自己說快篩這個部因為過去"},{"start":2400.993,"end":2424.446,"text":"說實在廠商都很多我知道啊 到最後囤積很多到最後變廢掉 我知道啊廠商一直趕快生產然後我們一直努力做鋪路這個幾乎每一天都在做所以請委員放心大概在六月中我們就會達到所需求量的兩倍對啦 因為你要到最基層有的人他有"},{"start":2425.526,"end":2448.486,"text":"疑惑到底他有沒有感染到我們建議就到基層診所因為現在的病毒實在是太多種了我們希望能夠到診所去做判斷這個應該是比較安全部長過去因為新冠疫苗接種讓疫苗救濟申請案件暴增連帶也影響到其他疫苗救濟的案件審議"},{"start":2449.867,"end":2465.625,"text":"的進度比如說流感疫苗卡介苗的疫苗等近年來多次在立法院引起立委關心疫苗救濟案件的審議速度那觀察受害救濟申請案件統計"},{"start":2466.986,"end":2472.01,"text":"以111年為例一共有4813件112年降到820件113年降到594案件那我請問衛福部的衛福部預防接種受害救濟審議小組案件塞車的狀況有沒有改善"},{"start":2489.448,"end":2516.664,"text":"那個請莊書長回來報告委員那其實我們現在這個每天就是每個月就是會召開兩次的VICP的委員會那每一次大概就是有大概有三百件一直都在改所以理論上應該是大概六七月左右這個新冠的期間所有的這個案件幾乎都可以都審查啦那目前還在加速當中因為齁是"},{"start":2518.065,"end":2535.353,"text":"過去12年平均每案件審查的時間他高達243.6天喔8個月喔我們現在已經減少了那我請問現在平均專案審查的時間有多少這個我不清楚我可以再回應你這個很重要啊"},{"start":2537.233,"end":2552.959,"text":"因為醫師認為說新冠疫情使嚴格的感染管制措施所留下的免疫負債造成我們對各種傳染疾病的免疫力都下降過去夏天"},{"start":2554.096,"end":2571.405,"text":"流感病病例比較少但有醫師認為現在的病毒流行已經沒有按時序來走使流感不再是只有秋冬的限定而出現這個流感全年化的這種現象是不是這樣子"},{"start":2572.085,"end":2591.844,"text":"台灣因為是說如果是屬於溫帶它比較才會有這個就是秋冬季的一個流行就是有很明顯的流行啦但是我們是屬於熱帶亞熱帶地區所以本來一年到頭就會有流感的流行只是說比較不明顯那我請問對於流感全年化的這種現象請問衛福部"},{"start":2593.746,"end":2609.322,"text":"流感疫苗接種時程是不是會提早到九月啊不一定一定要會在十月以後才開打應該是說我們其實這個是不是九月開打其實都有都有討論過啦你如果太早打那事實上剛剛您說的全年都流行那就會比較"},{"start":2611.304,"end":2626.532,"text":"也會比較容易就是就是你的保護力會趕快會比較快消掉所以我們現在還是希望說還是大概十月開始打至少到隔年的這個六七月之前都還有一定的保護力好啦我希望你們考慮考慮啦謝謝好謝謝林委員的資訊現在請吳秉瑞委員資訊請"},{"start":2639.929,"end":2642.851,"text":"主席麻煩請衛福部邱部長來邱部長請委員好部長早今天講的這個是整備那我要問你相關的問題今年度的這個114年度的預算貴部被山被凍的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":2666.049,"end":2683.062,"text":"如果以機關署的預算 防疫這個部分沒有一定要以機關署為限 我是問你衛福部衛福部3減11億 凍結26億3減11億是3減在哪裡 主要3減在哪裡就是在業務費業務費 業務費裡面的宣傳預算 是 有是不是被刪了60% 是 3減多少錢"},{"start":2701.386,"end":2723.892,"text":"四千多萬那你這個費用本來是要跟國人溝通當有重大疫情的時候或是有什麼重大突發事件的時候你需要這筆經費然後趕快把你的這個業務上面希望國人配合去做一個宣傳嘛是的那這個被刪掉之後你要怎麼用呢"},{"start":2726.807,"end":2752.359,"text":"這個業務是不是就被影響啦當然是會影響所以我們為了還是要守護全民健康所以那怎麼辦呢 你沒有錢可以用啊你少了這個宣傳的部分你又不能留用你也不能從其他預算科目來你的宣傳費用少了60%少了幾千萬所以你衛福部要跟國人做這一些意見溝通的時候你要如何處理"},{"start":2754.428,"end":2763.846,"text":"這個都會再再影響到我們每一個國人的權益是不是那你是不是就是你跟社會的溝通就少60%啊"},{"start":2765.339,"end":2786.813,"text":"以後本來應該要宣傳 比如說現在哪一個疾病哪一個流行性疾病 應該要怎麼樣處置這方面的information沒有辦法透過這些各種媒體讓國人能了解難道國人自己每天要去FB排隊問嗎那你到底要如何處理呢"},{"start":2787.95,"end":2807.952,"text":"我想河山這方面的預算的確會影響到我們在做一些可能需要不管是防疫或是健康訊息的傳遞但是我想我們會努力努力來你這個是要跟藍白立委溝通的希望明年不要這樣亂砍"},{"start":2810.763,"end":2834.397,"text":"原因在哪裡他們都誤會說你這個宣傳預算是拿來做政治攻防的啦他們都是做這樣的設想所以一刀就被砍掉60%他不知道部會需要跟國人溝通的事情很多我們衛福部都是以健康跟守護民眾的一個安全這個我相信問題是不相信的人就會拿來亂砍利用多數就隨便亂砍所以今天在這邊談說整備"},{"start":2840.541,"end":2851.59,"text":"各式各樣的東西的整備一方面給你大砍預算一方面光這方面跟國人溝通就有很大的影響第二個你的業務費被凍結了多少錢業務費整個衛福部嘛是啊凍結是26億凍結26億那總共業務費本來總共是多少"},{"start":2869.713,"end":2889.099,"text":"凍結了30%是不是?業務費凍結了30%是不是現在有在提出解凍?報告委員,我們未還的委員會已經在上禮拜前述解凍解凍,那原來叫凍這個是什麼意思?預算的審查一月通過,然後現在凍這麼多讓你的業務費這樣為難你,讓你難用"},{"start":2895.973,"end":2913.225,"text":"不行 不能夠又要馬而跑 又要馬而不吃草好 那現在再來機關署 機關署你的經費這跟今天最直接相關的 你的經費被刪減了多少今天3.1億5千萬主要刪減在哪裡主要還是就是國內外的旅費 教育訓練 水電費還有媒體宣導跟設備費"},{"start":2917.328,"end":2940.283,"text":"這除了是在業務範圍嗎?對對對,業務範圍那這個對你有什麼影響呢?應該是說,我目前大概盡量利用我們署內的預算來挪用來部分,但是不是不能喔,被刪減的不能留用喔有一些像國內旅費沒有辦法留用,這個部分就會比較麻煩就是說如果一旦未來,比如說南部有登革熱,那我們去就沒辦法跨區支援啦,這個會比較傷腦筋一點"},{"start":2941.724,"end":2969.02,"text":"那到底如果真的發生了你要如何處理呢?難道要我們所屬同仁自己掏腰包自己出這個旅運費用自己去處理嗎?當然我相信如果他對這個業務有非常崇高的理想跟奉獻精神的人或許叫他自己要出一點這個交通費用叫他自己去他都還有可能可是這不是一個國家的制度啊"},{"start":2969.902,"end":2996.037,"text":"對 因為我們通常去支援這個登革的防疫通常要待一個禮拜啦如果從外面調去還有住宿費這個餐飲費這個部分都需要一些解決那你這件事情如何處理這都已經 刪減這項業務會影響到你很大的你的業務的這個推動啊對 所以這個部分我們當然就是盡量南部不要有登革疫情這樣發生啦這不是你 這我也希望大家都希望 但是問題是"},{"start":2997.746,"end":3021.123,"text":"這個光靠希望 那乾脆就去拜拜好了這有可能是這樣嗎所以你不能夠寄望於說希望它不要發生那這個到底你要如何解決呢沒有辦法解決 現在看起來是沒有能力我們可能就是再看一下我們的傳染病防治法跟災害防救法這邊看有沒有什麼空間可以在這個預算下去爭取"},{"start":3023.376,"end":3043.794,"text":"那至於今天談到的這些什麼快篩啊 疫苗啊 藥物啊還有跟醫師之間的這些的費用在疾管署這邊有沒有被動到的這部分倒是 主要是那個疫苗的費用一開始有動了一千萬 不過也解動了其他的部分倒還好 倒沒有"},{"start":3047.187,"end":3054.16,"text":"這個鑰匙工會的全國性的理事長所談到的說他是他有一些complain這間部長你知道這個訊息吧"},{"start":3057.789,"end":3080.148,"text":"哪一方 不曉得哪一方 防疫方面嗎剛剛不是前一個委員才剛問你他說黃金順怎麼樣怎麼樣我想任何一個團體他就好像藝界團體 藥界團體能夠超前部署來提醒我覺得我們都但是大家話說在前面你要你準備 要你準備我贊成"},{"start":3081.212,"end":3098.777,"text":"站在我中央政府這個立法我立法院我個人委員的角度我也贊成可是叫你準備如果過剩之後將來會再回過頭來說你為什麼準備這麼多呢以前他們都是用這樣的雙重手法一開始疫苗不夠趕快進疫苗"},{"start":3100.27,"end":3127.488,"text":"再來疫苗 大家施打的意願不高就怪你說怎麼浪費那麼多你記不記得 你以前在我們本院當委員的時候我們同事過嘛 這個是 印象應該是很深刻啊所以我的意思是說 你提早準備 我很贊成但是你要謹防這些人 會浪費這麼多你知道嗎他換了一個時空環境會回過頭來指責說 為什麼你浪費這麼多因為你提早準備"},{"start":3128.942,"end":3145.961,"text":"你當然就是要有一個安全的量那安全的量萬一將來使用不夠有剩餘的時候他會回過頭來指責你喔這一點大家話先說在前面你要有以待之喔加油 全力支持你 希望加油 謝謝好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員接下來請賴世寶委員發言"},{"start":3156.597,"end":3168.726,"text":"謝謝主席 以及各位先進有請我們的外務部的邱部長以及我們的審計部的審計長還有主計總署的陳主計長請邱部長 陳審計長 陳主計長"},{"start":3179.858,"end":3194.775,"text":"我先請教邱部長啦是的是剛才本來不想問這個題目但是有人起個頭我就根據你想請問你啊你剛剛說那個那個凍結都解凍了嘛是是是謝謝請問對於"},{"start":3198.657,"end":3211.585,"text":"長照有沒有這個山長照的預算有沒有長照的部分有的確有山到有一個有山到嗎有山了500萬講清楚講清楚旁邊講清楚長照有沒有山來"},{"start":3216.447,"end":3237.274,"text":"有一個長照社區共生互製計畫這個是針對鼓勵93區原民偏鄉離島長照資源比較不足的長照家庭使用日間照顧那這個呢被原來是3000萬被3減500萬這樣子那個育兒津貼有沒有刪育兒津貼沒有育兒津貼沒有育兒津貼沒有刪"},{"start":3245.29,"end":3265.003,"text":"照顧老的 照顧小的這基本上 都應該盡量照顧啦齁那麼 特別要強調的是今天我就拍這個啦 其實你要感謝我啊你可以跟組計長要錢啦因為我知道你現在你現在不需要錢了我剛剛聽你報告 你不用錢了"},{"start":3268.616,"end":3284.994,"text":"你都不缺錢我沒有那個我們當然在防疫嘛對啊現在因為防疫現在疫情起來了啊防疫的方面如果疫情你錢夠不夠啊我聽你著想的啊現階段我們因為準備的都充分所以很悶"},{"start":3286.363,"end":3313.346,"text":"所以目前是目前都還可以來支應譬如說我們疫苗採購我們會由疫苗基金來支應疫苗採購是疫苗基金不是從預算裡面的喔對不對所以沒有那種什麼三疫苗的事情喔沒有三疫苗的喔當時凍結1000萬那個時候的確有造成一點點困擾啦但是這個已經解決了但是基本上疫苗從疫苗基金出來的"},{"start":3315.155,"end":3336.543,"text":"那我現在就問你就是說如果你錢不夠了跟組織總組要什麼科目的錢我們目前來講的盤點是還夠如果有本部裡面機關署以及我們衛福部來支應不管是疫苗要採購那如果真的有"},{"start":3337.731,"end":3346.738,"text":"有疫情我們會很密切的來看看國際間還有我們國內的變化我們會早做安排那如果有必要的話我們會請行政院來幫忙那那個主計長啊這個他們如果要跟你邀請要從什麼科目"},{"start":3355.508,"end":3379.87,"text":"如果是防疫經費的話這如果疫情起來的時候他可以從他的經費先移緩季節那我們他如果不夠報到行政院來我們也可以從行政院來移緩季節那就是所以各部會都可以做調整那再者也是有災準金第二預備金來做支應可以用第二預備金嗎可以第二預備金也可以啊你不是說可以要用災害準配金"},{"start":3380.49,"end":3405.386,"text":"在原則上先用災害準備金因為防疫經費他是放在那個救災法裡面的一個規範就先用災害準備金請教邱部長啊你有沒有準備要用你的第二倍金現在不需要我們部沒有第二倍金我們部是沒有第二倍金但是我們現在我們一直在盤點除了我們預計這個疫情應該到8月應該這一波是可以"},{"start":3409.025,"end":3419.334,"text":"可以來足夠來應應但是我們一定要很小心我們會去看國際間WHO方面的一個訊息我請教你喔我們還是會超前部署我請教你喔現在美國的衛生部長他不相信疫苗是"},{"start":3428.905,"end":3453.441,"text":"他規定他突然宣布啊這個三個月突然宣布對健康懊悚跟孕婦啊不要打這個新冠病毒的疫苗我們不能這麼看因為那是個人發表的一個意見他是部長欸但是美國的其他專家有意見啦CDC的立場可不可以"},{"start":3459.005,"end":3475.941,"text":"那應該說美國有關疫苗的接種的建議通常都是由CDC的一個就是類似像我們台灣一個ACIP的委員會他們做成專家決議之後再建議啦那這次比較怪異的就是由他們的衛生部長跟FDA就直接說出來然後跳過"},{"start":3477.613,"end":3498.376,"text":"就是美國CDC後來美國CDC他們的發表是說如果說是這個民眾的這個跟醫師共同決定說他們的小孩跟那個健康孕婦跟孕婦是不是還要再施打啦那這個部分在台灣的部分我們還會再徵詢我們台灣的ACIP的委員那還有根據我們我們是不是要強調一下台灣還是要打"},{"start":3500.233,"end":3519.649,"text":"這個部分就是我們目前的部分依照目前是可以打但是未來這個流感未來這個十月的時候這一季的話我們會還會再尊重這個跟ACIP的委員這邊來尋求一個共識好 我再回到邱部長這裡了快篩疫苗藥品都不缺 目前都不缺"},{"start":3521.431,"end":3537.647,"text":"因為有人說高峰啊 高峰可能到七八月會高峰喔我們在六月中以前會備足到我們疾管署所預計的需求量的快篩的需求量已經預計在高峰是什麼時候2.5倍 六月中"},{"start":3539.682,"end":3550.916,"text":"7月初告布到什麼時候?6月底7月初量大概多少?量大概多少?大概前一個禮拜算大概20萬左右20萬?現在我們目前現在是6萬嘛對不對?對對現在是6萬多所以這個通告是不是?"},{"start":3556.476,"end":3570.063,"text":"應該是說我們的抗病毒藥物的部分事實上因為它是大概只有兩成的長者跟慢性病的病人才需要所以它並沒有說需要到那麼大的量170萬人就是說如果說整個高峰整個到8月初的時候170萬人那就是多34萬人要吃藥"},{"start":3577.367,"end":3603.612,"text":"要是要找我就不用擺今天那個專案報告啊因為是有醫生跟我反應都不夠基層的醫生跟我講不夠所以我才排這個基層的應該是說就有關這一波那我們也沒有要針對這個有關基層的醫師醫療院所還有這個核心要求的部分我們可以在這個部分來針對給他們的一些獎勵金的部分來做增加好 部長請教你"},{"start":3608.363,"end":3628.679,"text":"這個 民進黨總召柯俊明說啊7月26可能罷免 要在7月26號7月26是有國考咧 跟你有關的啊副理事啦 心理事啦 法醫啊 你們要不要講個話這個 印象中 你相關人員他們的憲法給他的權利喔"},{"start":3635.021,"end":3644.746,"text":"我想這個相關的日期應該相關的單位會做好處理不是不是 這跟你有關係啊因為他如果真的排7號6號就會影響到嗎據我了解那只是易估的啦誰 日期 日期你不跟老闆那日期有有你不跟老闆討論一下啊 跟你的科總要討論一下這樣說你這樣我的人 我的人要怎麼"},{"start":3661.82,"end":3689.678,"text":"我相信這個日期應該是可以達到一個大家都可以安排自己事情的一個時日期這個我覺得你們的考試看起來都沒你關心最後一個還是回到剛才有提到的啦剛才那個林德偉提到錢是病毒傳染的這個媒介可是"},{"start":3691.107,"end":3695.399,"text":"你們有沒有想過 你們知道嗎 我們很多小台灣都是一個人而已啊 這是怎麼辦呢"},{"start":3697.09,"end":3713.594,"text":"這個我覺得還是需要先宣導我們一定先宣導請大家放心我也是來自鄉下基層我們也了解到這個文化但是食安還是要共同一步一步往前走但是這個一定是先胡搗胡搗先行你對於這個一邊做一邊那個制你馬上開法是有意見的法很高欸六萬起跳欸"},{"start":3725.42,"end":3738.477,"text":"我們的各種小吃店都是辛苦經營我們完全了解他們的辛苦我們會輔導 謝謝好 謝謝賴司保委員接下來請郭國文委員發言"},{"start":3749.133,"end":3755.154,"text":"謝謝主席,有請沈記長,還有王副部長沈長,其實我看到今天的這個題目,其實相當的熟悉因為在一百一十年的時候,十月的時候,十一月的時候我們有接連兩次找了審計部來做專案報告主要也是針對這個衛福部的整個採購的流程"},{"start":3776.518,"end":3795.664,"text":"當初你就提出這個採購流程預算執行的建議當中有八個審核意見後來衛福部有一定程度的改善即便是在非常緊急的情況底下衛福部會做這些改善現在相對沒有那麼緊急的情況底下就你所知的部分衛福部其他的問題還沒有進行改善的"},{"start":3797.011,"end":3820.693,"text":"目前我們提出來一件 衛護部都有回應都有嘛 所以今天的主題其實基本上應該審計這邊應該沒有什麼太大的問題嘛那既然如此的話 我覺得不是缺貨的問題可能是缺人打的問題比較多啦那個部長 區部長我去查過JN1的這個疫苗呢 去年交貨是550萬劑你知道目前剩下還有多少劑嗎"},{"start":3821.354,"end":3842.501,"text":"三百萬劑左右我看到是三百零五萬劑之所以會剩下這麼多主要是第一劑的接種的部分只有九點二九點一二第二劑的部分更只有零點二五高危險成員部分六十五歲以上是十八點八五我覺得去年你們有一個口號還不錯左流右心我聽你們口號我還去打"},{"start":3844.002,"end":3867.543,"text":"打完之後我以為你這口號很成功結果想不到這個比例差這麼多流感的部分還有破五成為什麼大家對流感接收這麼高然後呢對這個新冠疫苗的這個部分的接種差這麼多是不是有可能第一個這個有一些這個感冒當然有即時性有壓迫性的問題或第二個聽說要分兩次吃打第二次就沒吃打會不會這樣子 邱部長"},{"start":3868.479,"end":3883.863,"text":"好 我想這個的確是需要先導啦 謝謝委員的關心那因為變異株還是不一樣 可是很多人都覺得他以前已經打過好多劑了啦或者甚至有的有打斬過了 但是其實還是有變異株的問題啦像我大概打了八九次了吧 那10月1號走的右心也是有打的"},{"start":3892.705,"end":3902.876,"text":"對啊 我也都有打咧但是問題不是我們有沒有打問題是很多民眾都沒有打這才是會讓我們緊張的一個原因嘛你305劑我就問嘛你的Daylight到什麼時候保存實現啊到9月底到今年9月底到9月底 對350萬劑價值多少錢 採購金額多少"},{"start":3915.182,"end":3936.079,"text":"阿赫 你居然不曉得大概三四十億 三十億左右三十億左右 三十億左右就打水漂欸 拜託要加緊宣傳 宣傳發言人有被刪掉嗎 有被刪掉嗎沒有沒有被刪掉 你們要加緊宣傳啊 必要的時候找一下院長出來打一下嘛 院長打了沒有部長"},{"start":3938.482,"end":3961.91,"text":"有 前一陣子有聽到院長在安排前一陣子我講你就說前一陣子有安排我沒有講就沒有安排那副總統打了沒有副總統打了沒有這個第一個就是要有一定的條件當時就是65歲或者慢性病部長你不要偏差去了嘛我現在告訴你 我現在想說如何讓你的業務能夠提升嘛你就要把這一種代表性的人物請出來"},{"start":3964.502,"end":3985.148,"text":"拜託說你三百零五萬劑在那邊打水漂三十億耶拜託到時候詐約長就拿人家出來攻擊你這施打率實在是差太多了嘛我們全力在先導用盡各種方法在九月之前目標是多少會不會超過五十自我挑戰一下"},{"start":3986.588,"end":4014.345,"text":"因為這個疫苗它本身就是很多人都感染過跟他會覺得你不要跟我講這個啦你竟然設定這個五百你竟然買了五百五十萬就是代表這個需要施打的數目嘛我們全力以赴我們全力以赴不要跟我講那些例外的嘛這就是你要的目標啊不然就不要買那麼多啊應該是說我們現在除了這個全體的國民的接種另外一個比較順遂是高危險群啦我們希望能夠超過20%以上蛤 20%"},{"start":4015.626,"end":4032.965,"text":"高危險群的65歲以上20%20%以上現在是18.85啦因為他剩下只有到六七月只有一個月的時間你下去你下去我不要跟你討論了那個部長那個我再跟你講一下那個癌友的這個復原道路我們現在有健康台灣"},{"start":4035.067,"end":4048.195,"text":"賴總統非常有心 健康台灣深耕計畫100億用多少補多少但是我看了結果我們心要的引進 老實講過去10年平均全球460個只有16%在一年內拖29%納入這個醫療給付第一個 時間拖了很長"},{"start":4052.998,"end":4072.405,"text":"第二個呢 因為價格的問題 進來之後呢你們限縮對象 限縮療程 限縮時間不得替代 不同替用 等等連這個限縮對象的部分來 化療無效才能用化療的無效啊 八個月啊還有晚期的這個患者才能用用這個有什麼意義 這第一個嘛"},{"start":4072.705,"end":4092.507,"text":"那之所以會這樣子就是因為你價格來限制了這個耽誤時間嘛第三個呢到了這個健保署的時候又限縮一次用適應證來做限縮縮縮縮不外乎就是錢錢錢的問題嘛那現在錢錢錢已經拿了一百億用多少可以補多少你這個問題要什麼時候可以改善部長請回答"},{"start":4093.391,"end":4120.577,"text":"報告委員我想我們政府尤其是賴總統非常重視癌症的一個防治除了在預防方面投入很多的經費以外在治療的這個部分也給我們癌症百益基金這個是對癌症的病人非常的有幫助這個我剛剛有講那這當中當然會讓我們現在健保署一直在開放就是希望需要的人癌症需要的人就馬上可以但是感覺上還是慢慢啊對不對你們快快快"},{"start":4122.958,"end":4145.343,"text":"陳副署長要不要說我們現在已經縮短到謝謝委員的推詢我們今年在健康台灣裡面的這個癌症新藥基金如同國員剛剛所說的是100億那我們的總額增加是8.13%712億那關於所謂新藥引進的時間我們在去年新藥引進的時間已經大幅度縮短到一年以內那未來我們會持續一年以內了嗎因為去以前是787天喔"},{"start":4147.223,"end":4168.948,"text":"你說了一年一年就代表你進步了然後再說一個例子好了最近我接到一個什麼寡速塗膠之流兩都已經 主治醫生都幫他申請了兩次都沒有過他說不符合適應症就我剛剛講的嘛就用盡各種方法來限縮嘛明明一種藥可以治六種癌症你就把它說 喔這只有這一種比較好而已"},{"start":4170.392,"end":4185.632,"text":"這 我這個個案你拿回去檢討一下好不好 副書長是是 我們會回去身子檢討民怨一大堆啦 從台南打到台北來啦跟委員報告 我們的新藥引進事實上是有個審議委員會那事實上是在審議委員會沒有通過所以我們會回去再盤點這個流程對啦 你要好好的判讀一下啦 要"},{"start":4187.074,"end":4208.726,"text":"苦民所苦啦那最後問一下那個部長現在到七月的時候高峰嘛要二十萬人嘛那這樣的情況底下你已經啟動了這一個我們的部那個衛福部的所屬的醫院加開門診 夜間門診啦那一般的醫療院所有開始溝通了沒有SOP出來了沒有你剛剛有提到超前部署你會不會稍微講一下"},{"start":4209.502,"end":4232.696,"text":"包委員我們在COVID那幾年當中可以說是做好分級分流的一個體系所以我們要再啟動這樣的一個體系是沒有問題的我相信你這個沒有問題還有包括口罩的部分的宣傳我相信都沒有問題我最後一題問你現在台日之間的水產您也是東大畢業的我們之前花了八年的時間讓石斑魚能夠去日本"},{"start":4233.877,"end":4255.019,"text":"那現在問題對方也花了6年的時間申請讓河豚來到台灣那我問了農業部說卡在衛福部啊那衛福部在去年12月也去實地查核過了那我就問一個簡單的原因到底要等多久有沒有可能年底有沒有可能無毒養殖的先進口"},{"start":4256.757,"end":4277.447,"text":"這個現在就一直在請專家在會議研議沒有沒有目標值嘛如果說沒有讀了沒有讀了就讓他進來大家就知道怕河豚你們一定有進度啦不要講那個啦我們會努力讓他盡快盡快我們年底試看看好不好好我們再努力好謝謝好謝謝郭委員的諮詢下一位請李燕秀委員諮詢"},{"start":4288.095,"end":4291.717,"text":"好 是不是可以請衛福部初部長初部長委員好謝謝部長你今天親自來我蠻驚訝的不過我覺得非常感謝你代表你對我們財務會這個議題的重視當然疫情在一起國人也都非常關心到底我們準備的狀況到底如何但是部長我要先請問你一個問題周一部長跟醫療團體開會討論整個防疫的準備狀況"},{"start":4317.913,"end":4327.496,"text":"會後醫界有一個反應啊疫苗費被砍了我想請問醫界所謂的疫苗費用被砍到底是被誰砍掉部長過去我們疫情期間疫苗接種的費用是有一個儲值費100塊對不對還有一個獎勵的費用100塊對不對那疫情過後衛福部其實就沒有編列"},{"start":4347.465,"end":4355.271,"text":"獎勵費了一百塊 我有沒有講錯對 你自己沒有編嘛所以外界在這一段時間一直有在講說國民黨砍了"},{"start":4358.755,"end":4377.005,"text":"一百塊的這個這個這個疫苗費的預算事實上是沒有是根本沒有編因為我們疫情過後已經沒有所謂的獎勵費因為疫情中心那個已經特別但是不是國民黨砍的啦是你們這獎勵費是疫情過本來就沒有編列我想我的邏輯我沒有講錯你應該懂好來那"},{"start":4379.967,"end":4395.686,"text":"意見還是一直在提我想疫苗儲蓄費的增加你非常清楚我們看一下後面下一張圖部長我在總質詢的時候我就提到我們目前近年我們包括癌症篩檢的費用的調整"},{"start":4397.955,"end":4402.037,"text":"成癌的健檢從520調到880口腔癌的篩檢從130調到250大腸癌的篩檢從200調漲到400塊都成長了69% 92%大腸癌的篩檢更成長了一倍"},{"start":4414.765,"end":4419.407,"text":"所以呢為什麼在這一段時間我們在爭取疫苗的費用的時候醫界就反而就一直搖頭探頭疫情過後呢這個包括疫苗處置費呢是不增反減因為我們沒有那個100塊醫界就最後自嘲說我們的疫苗接種不如一坨大便我説不如一坨大便是大腸癌的篩檢人家還有從200塊增加到400塊"},{"start":4442.657,"end":4449.879,"text":"我想這個聲音你應該跟我在很多場合都有聽到醫界聲音對不對部長我這樣講沒錯了醫界搖頭說他們的處置費用不如一坨大便就是大腸癌篩檢所有的篩檢都成長了50%以上我們兩個共同參加很多次我們再看下一張表格"},{"start":4466.062,"end":4491.403,"text":"日本的疫苗處置費從一千一到一六五零一千六百五十塊韓國的處置費是五百到一千塊我們的疫苗處置費多少呢只有一百塊顯然的為什麼人家會編從一千一到一六五零五百到一千塊因為裡面有行政管理疫苗的保存需要冰箱衛教的宣導這些成本部長你同不同意他都不止一百塊你同不同意"},{"start":4493.965,"end":4504.991,"text":"我同意對啊 沒人日本跟韓國就是亂編啊 對不對人家為什麼編從一百五百到一千我們機關署其實也是非常的努力啦所以第一線 部長也提出方案來提升部長 你是真正醫界出身所以我覺得第一線的醫事人員心灰意冷"},{"start":4514.216,"end":4528.526,"text":"那我們現在為不只能苦要求說不要太世俗啦我們一起做功德心中難道默念的賴總統的這個健康台灣那持續的要一介做功德我覺得這不合理啦這不合理"},{"start":4529.386,"end":4552.823,"text":"所以 部長 我要請問你 我們到底每一季 目前你的想法到底有沒有要調因為總諮詢的時候你也同意 你也認為應該要調在兒科醫學會的時候 很多場合 我們每次在開會的時候每一區 中區 北區 南區 東區 每次去開會的時候醫界都說 你們都說要調到底每一季 你們有沒有準備要調多少錢那什麼時候要準備調整 會不會編列在明年的預算裡面"},{"start":4554.005,"end":4574.341,"text":"報告委員我想我還是要說明因為在推行健康台灣的過程當中其實只要需要什麼經費對人民健康有幫助的我覺得政府都一直在努力那這個部分的疫苗處置費我們的集團署也提出了相對的方案因為他要從疫苗基金"},{"start":4575.402,"end":4604.531,"text":"沒關係 部長你直接回應我到底什麼時候要調會不會編入明年的預算當中你目前的想法應該調到多少你該做多少的Range才是一個合理的Range那我請集團署組長回答一下好 簡答就好了 好不好因為我今天時間不多 後面還有幾個問題五月上旬有跟行政院來爭取預算當中目前還在程序爭取多少錢應該說這個部分我也不方便回答好 那你告訴我Range好不好範圍大概多少"},{"start":4605.936,"end":4621.132,"text":"你覺得多少跟多少你爭取的預算是多少到多少沒關係你告訴我你爭取的預算一季應該是多少到多少才合理如果砍掉就是我們一定盡量爭取啦一定盡量爭取你不跟他說就對了因為這是預算的事情要看看 看 看"},{"start":4622.694,"end":4641.126,"text":"我想當時在我當任立委的時候也是跟委員一樣在爭取我們兩個都一樣都關心醫界都關心病人因為我們覺得基層真的是很辛苦是 部長所以你的意思是說你已經爭取了你希望不要用明年的預算一個小孩在打針有時候真的很難打"},{"start":4642.026,"end":4666.044,"text":"所以好沒關係部長因為我時間有限我後面還有其他快篩完全了解完全了解也會完全來好你有送上去的就對了你有送上去的就對了有爭取的就對了有是不是有齁有有所以不能講不敢講好反正最後你有爭取那我就當作院長部長有爭取砍掉或沒給就是卓院長不肯給好那我聽懂了好來那接下來五月初我們說要"},{"start":4669.662,"end":4693.963,"text":"我希望我們不要玩兩手策略一邊因為健保署上次又說保持開放的心情然後後面又叫醫院要做公德然後又叫醫界寫什麼協議合作跟健保署提案我覺得不要玩兩手策略部長你這樣講我就很清楚你們有上簽了到行政院去了給不給就是行政院給不給我這樣理解沒有錯吧我們在疫苗基金裡面有去"},{"start":4696.665,"end":4713.304,"text":"這個部分就是有關疫苗接種儲施費的部分的確在五月五月上旬有向行政院來爭取擴大公務預算的一個波及到疫苗基金裡面那如果要實施的話也會先實施到這個也會在明年明年的部分希望爭取到明年編列預算進去"},{"start":4714.775,"end":4737.966,"text":"部長署長因為從過去他目前是150點希望增加到300點那我們疫情期間事實上有規劃到300點我們這300塊300塊事實上就早就已經做過成本的評估不然你疫情期間不會亂給到300塊所以這是當時你們預估過在疫情期間衛福部所有當時評估規劃你當時就是規劃300塊"},{"start":4742.188,"end":4750.393,"text":"用第一個有特別預算第二個不管特別預算你沒有規劃到四百五百沒有說掛號費啦所以當時沒有掛號費但是我的意思是說你當時規劃三百塊你一定有算出它的成本是三百塊是符合成本我要提醒你三百塊那個數字當時是這樣訂出來的從一百五十點到三百塊是有理由的你不會亂編嘛你疫情期間就是給三百塊嘛我提醒你所以快篩的這是第一件事情"},{"start":4771.747,"end":4785.978,"text":"那第二件事情就是部長那個我們現在的整個快篩的進度到底是怎麼樣到底夠不夠我們當時的反應現在的從112年快篩當時改靠健保給付從150點到現在300點嘛那現在300塊才能滿足服務成本大家都知道所以快篩給付的調整能不能在這個月之內處理完成"},{"start":4802.659,"end":4821.473,"text":"有沒有打算給有沒有打算實施健保署跟委員報告那這個快篩給付現在是健保給付那健保它有一定的程序包含要過專家執意會還要過公理會我叫你不要跟我講那麼多主席已經站起來了你不要告訴我快篩給付的集體促成我們還是要依照健保的一個程序以上"},{"start":4821.613,"end":4844.447,"text":"我知道程序但是現在六七月已經是高峰了你現在快篩幾副你沒有大家那個量診所的配合意願度都不高因為你只有給150點的話他就不敷成本使用他就不愛用我就不要用快篩我就不要用醫藥快篩我就不幫你篩你進來有可能你就是得到COVID嘛我就不給你篩因為我做一個賠一個嘛"},{"start":4846.008,"end":4853.554,"text":"因為你當時的疫情成本上次疫情成本是300塊嘛他現在醫界診所他就不愛用啊我做一個賠一個啊部長我有沒有講錯你聽懂我在講什麼嗎所以你們不能不食肉迷不食人間煙火你們食藥署竟然告訴人家說我們有撲霍啦什麼體感溫度不同這種話不要說這種話說真的是傷害食藥署部長不是你謝謝"},{"start":4872.915,"end":4896.494,"text":"好 我們會努力 你了解我的話完全了解 我們會努力趕快修正吧 這個月趕快想辦法好 現在為我們請民事委員會主席等一下 我最後一句啦就是快再幾個月要想辦法實施啦好不好部長你了解我的意思 謝謝我們再努力他能比較是說你一直沒有回答你報告寫150點 你不能回到300點啦這樣啦對啊 我要學習來努力"},{"start":4903.714,"end":4906.775,"text":"謝謝主席請衛福部邱部長還有我們審計部陳審計長還有我們這個主計處主計處那個陳淑芝"},{"start":4923.952,"end":4950.997,"text":"陳副主主席長副主席長是嗎OK好OK謝謝那個邱部長好是我想部長疫情再起政府號稱防疫戰備充足啦我想剛才很多委員大家都對不管是快篩試劑啦或者是疫苗你剛才講說疫苗是充足的啦藥品那個沉默中足那個診所協會的理事長講說這個"},{"start":4952.777,"end":4971.57,"text":"防疫抗病毒的藥物也是不足結果我們看到的似乎是口號超前但是部署落後所以部長你剛才講說我們會超前部署但是我們看到現在的情況感覺整個防疫的能量是不夠充裕的"},{"start":4973.593,"end":5001.274,"text":"賴總統講說防疫能量充裕國人無需驚慌當然這個是安慰國人但是我們實際看到的情況在我們這個三個禮拜部長你自己也講你還出來道歉你說又針對這個快篩撲破延遲基層缺藥缺快篩你也道歉了所以我在這邊我要想請問的就是說疾管署你們到底是什麼時候有掌握到疫情升溫的徵兆"},{"start":5003.85,"end":5007.173,"text":"我先回答一下,謝謝委員的隨行上次我在媒體接受訪問的時候,我只是說明說因為快篩,因為你又要工廠做又要鋪貨,你平常沒有用的時候要工廠做"},{"start":5024.369,"end":5039.028,"text":"存貨下來也是很麻煩所以這個過程當中其實我們不管食藥署 機關署是非常努力啦我只是說站在同理心的立場說等幾天 馬上會報所以六月中以後我們所以你有道歉嗎我沒有說道歉啦"},{"start":5041.19,"end":5046.251,"text":"我是很關心國人只要一點點延遲一分一秒我們就覺得需要努力了你這樣的回答是沒有問題我們在緊肯定啦你有在積極的希望趕快的把它補給我補充一下我們的藥物跟疫苗是絕對沒有問題"},{"start":5067.475,"end":5090.703,"text":"那快篩現在在六月底 六月中以後會散亮到預期就會亮的兩倍就會足夠嘛齁應該都 加用快篩一定夠現在重要是讓醫院診所看怎麼樣能夠發揮最大的功能因為會有這種疑慮就是快篩會大家一直會認為說這個快篩的不足不夠因為大家都買不到"},{"start":5095.578,"end":5102.144,"text":"大家都在基層買不到啊所以你預估是在六月中旬就一定有啊大家不會再空跑藥局了是跟委員報告其實快篩我們從"},{"start":5113.153,"end":5129.569,"text":"5月20號統計到昨天為止家用快餐的部分已經工廠都製造超過91萬劑那也鋪貨出去到82萬劑那目前14個通路包含連鎖藥局超商藥妝店等他們目前都是全力在鋪貨那會有一些順序差別是因為"},{"start":5130.87,"end":5153.265,"text":"這些製劑商基本上每天生產完這物流就會帶走但是訂單下的時間不一樣所以這一波事實上是連鎖藥局的訂單下的比較早我的重點是說你大概六月大概什麼時候就缺因為到六月中旬人民去買就不會買不到跟委員報告到六月中旬家用快篩的總共生產量會超過210萬劑那這個已經超過在疾管署預估我們知道生產量這麼多你整個鋪貨的流程你這個SOP都有建議嗎"},{"start":5157.848,"end":5174.627,"text":"現在目前鋪貨大概只會差十萬劑的量左右就是生產的多然後鋪貨大概會晚一天就差十萬劑這樣所以也會有大概兩百萬劑鋪到各市場上那我們今天其實昨天有我們再去抽測目前國內大概這些連鎖藥局跟超商"},{"start":5175.368,"end":5196.607,"text":"超過一半以上其實都有存貨那民眾會去有的時候買不到是因為他可能進了貨那之前的民眾他已經買走了所以他再去的時候他就必須等下一波的進貨所以你預估大概在我還是回到了六月中旬應該就沒有問題了應該全部都會到貨好那接下來請那個我們主席沈記長沈記長請"},{"start":5201.191,"end":5211.061,"text":"對於這一波的整個這個疫情升溫好像有廠商趁機來搭便車造成政策操作的空間與利益的輸送"},{"start":5212.267,"end":5240.928,"text":"你有沒有調查到有沒有有沒有這種情況發生這一波我們還沒有進行調查還沒有調查還沒有集合還沒有開始啟動集合機制對因為這一波是最近起來嘛是那我們的損失有很多事要做所以我們剛查完那個特別結算的一些規定所以這一波因為都剛大家剛查完回來還沒有開啟"},{"start":5242.169,"end":5254.178,"text":"但是我還是要建議你喔我們希望說整個這個防疫的整個這個程序我們不要有人趁機去撈一筆就發這種國難財所以請陳議長就是針對快篩藥物採購的程序啟動專案的集合還是要趕快啟動啦再請那個我們"},{"start":5268.573,"end":5295.12,"text":"主計處我想這一次的地方就是剛才部長也講說我們中央這一次整個防疫的預算是足夠的中央是足夠的但是地方我們現在看到因為這一次行政院統三以列為法律支出的地方性的地方的一般性補助款地方首長昨天也集體到行政院來訴願"},{"start":5296.9,"end":5298.266,"text":"所以我想了解說中央"},{"start":5300.781,"end":5326.451,"text":"這個主席處這一次你統三地方的一般性補助款地方很多都反映說這個防疫的預算地方的防疫的預算會受到影響會受到影響所以主席總處你這一次統三地方的一般性補助款你們是否有事前去了解到說你這個是否會影響地方的一個防疫的一個預算"},{"start":5327.539,"end":5351.264,"text":"我們有做過評估嗎我們中央防疫預算也是先以緩計及那地方基本上往年的模式也是都有障礙防救法以緩計及那這一次所謂刪減一般性補助款概念上對應地方是他的稅路所以對地方來講是影響他的資金調度那這個部分資金調度的部分我們會來協助"},{"start":5352.944,"end":5378.021,"text":"所以你認為這個不會衝擊到地方的防疫的一個防疫的資源都不會 都不會這是你的說法 因為地方確實有挨挨叫喔你講說尤其衛生局整個一個地方衛生局整個一個防疫的一個預算因為這一次的一般性補助管被刪除而影響到他們這個防疫預算的一個準備啦的籌措啦"},{"start":5378.801,"end":5407.257,"text":"這些資金有受影響喔所以你事前完全沒有去跟這些地方政府來做一個溝通一般性補助款的部分我們有先行在3月發函先用控留的方式 發函我知道但是我是說你們在評估的時候根本就沒有評估到說是不是未來可能疫情會起來啊疫情起來你這個地方的這個防疫預算會不會受影響所以你無差別的去這個統三整個一般性補助啊"},{"start":5407.557,"end":5414.531,"text":"跟委員包括我們平均過已經影響到整個這個包含防疫預算有平均過地方政府有資金調度的能力"},{"start":5417.525,"end":5432.735,"text":"我想最後還是要問主席總書因為我想昨天整個六都或者其他縣市我們很多的首長已經到行政院提訴員昨天主席長也講了目前針對114年度的一般性補助款的3.636億會提出辦法解決"},{"start":5439.62,"end":5446.314,"text":"主計總署後續將聽取各方意見來研議相關的方案請問這相關的方案是什麼"},{"start":5448.6,"end":5475.179,"text":"相關方案已經演繹出來沒有現在很緊急不要再拖了目前有提到的是追加預算所以你的方案就是追加預算所以我最後一個問題就是你現在你要用追加預算方式但是你追加預算的方式是你一個相關的方案你是不是在這個追加預算這個方案演繹的過程中你應該盡速的補足我們地方的一般性補助款你不應該去停止執行"},{"start":5476.567,"end":5488.664,"text":"我想這個請主席總書你真的要去好好地思考一下這個類似苗栗這種資金調度困難了我們會來協助不是 現在不是那種資金你現在 你既然要研議相關方案嘛就趕快補足嘛 好不好好 謝謝林委員的資訊現在有請鍾嘉斌委員資訊"},{"start":5504.602,"end":5532.769,"text":"好 主席在場的委員先進列席的政府局長長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生我看到我們部長迫不及待請邱部長邱部長請謝謝委員好部長 讓你先講我們來看一下幾位委員關心的第一個議題就是今天大家看到報紙就跳起來了我的主張是先圈倒再裁罰啦我們當然支持無接觸點餐但是目前我們看到的呢是說"},{"start":5533.891,"end":5555.572,"text":"衛福部說要禁止早前在碰食物感覺到要先裁罰保庭有請教一下你過去有沒有用過這種在日本去拉麵點個拉麵這樣按鍵要前方進去有沒有有沒有用過這種機器有用過這種機器比現在一些大型的速食連鎖店簡單多了也便宜多了你支不支持我們行政院來幫助這些小店家安裝這種"},{"start":5557.133,"end":5573.886,"text":"取代人工點餐找零的這樣的設備 知不支持不是叫你出錢 你知不支持行政院做這個事我支持可以往這方面來 因為現在人力也是一個問題是的 所以我要說的是說過去在疫情期間 我分別諮詢過經濟部也諮詢過財政部我希望財政部應該給予租稅的寬免"},{"start":5578.87,"end":5600.504,"text":"願意採用餐飲店願意採用這種免接觸的點餐設備免找零的不用去手工接觸找零的如果有裝設這樣的機器這樣的小店家應該給予租稅商的快免你會支持嗎就是說如果小店家改用這種設備你會支持嗎還是你不支持這不是符合你的政策嗎"},{"start":5603.267,"end":5630.556,"text":"在國瓊的引起之下當然是支持那如果經濟部說那你們小店家裝這種設備我給你補助你會贊成嗎當然不是衛福部的意見應該是支持對嘛所以如果說經濟部為了配合衛福部的政策我們先宣導鼓勵經濟部給小店家這樣的補助優惠讓他裝設這樣的免接觸的點餐找零的器材"},{"start":5631.229,"end":5657.109,"text":"然後呢財政部也給這樣的店家給他租稅的優勉那這樣做起來是不是衛福部就很省事就不用再寄到最後端的財閥大家都皆大歡喜你同意嗎我同意好謝謝所以呢我們現在進入來現在是疫情新冠疫情大家急診篩報對不對這不用講平常沒有新冠疫情大家都覺得我們民醫代表經常受到民眾的請託關懷我們都做好我們看一下急診室的醫生怎麼講"},{"start":5657.91,"end":5673.493,"text":"最近這位急診醫師投訴告白他說不是教學醫院沒有住院醫類似的急診醫而且第二個這些我們每年訓練的急診醫師呢有兩成沒有去職業另外呢已經有66名已經去離職了"},{"start":5674.639,"end":5695.654,"text":"那現在大醫院還會支援然後呢現在呢小醫院現在也得不到大醫院的支援還有我們的這些其他的隱形工作很多日夜班的轉換有困難縱使我們把急診急護提高但是還是追不上做醫美的收入那麼包括護理師的人員也離開造成第一線醫師更累部長怎麼辦 這些事情怎麼辦"},{"start":5696.434,"end":5723.008,"text":"我們每一樣問題都非常積極在解決包括提高集富尤其重症急診集富我們也盡量追求更好的一個職業環境那調班各方面 盡量讓更加能夠符合我想部長對這些問題都了然於胸但是有句話說 原水救不了進火原水還是要準備對不對 但是進火在哪裡往下看這是去年的高峰啊"},{"start":5724.246,"end":5737.692,"text":"今年呢到現在這是週別去年的25週到達高峰今年的25週就快來了喔快來了喔所以還剩兩三週就要面對這個高峰了根據去年的經驗我們今年有辦法應對嗎"},{"start":5738.855,"end":5758.408,"text":"報告委員我們過去COVID-19的三年的防疫當中我們建立了分流分集的體系很好分流分集所以才不要讓那個急診當時台北市一天一萬個infected但是如果只要其中一小部分到急診急診一定老所以急診醫療發揮社區醫療發揮對社區醫療社區醫療就像是洪水來的滯洪池"},{"start":5764.952,"end":5790.641,"text":"不要讓洪峰一下子衝破我們的醫院的急診是不是這樣子所以我們現在一直宣導說有任何問題到不是只有宣導到急診不是只有宣導到診所啦我們在疫情之前怎麼做往下看在疫情期間我們診所是不是有特別預算支持是是不是所以呢他們診所多收治輕症不會影響到他的點子不會稀釋對不對現在我們傳染病降級了有沒有這個特別預算沒有嘛"},{"start":5791.84,"end":5819.66,"text":"所以診所如果說多收一些把這些洪峰吸收在診所不要讓他進入醫院但是沒有後面的支持啊怎麼辦我們有一些風險健保總額裡面有一些風險基金你還是要用健保總額嗎沒有其他的錢可以用嗎我問你我們這次下一個我們過去我們今年的中央政府總預算被藍白亂刪這些有沒有包含刪到我們這些做我們救命前的這些預算有沒有"},{"start":5821.792,"end":5849.921,"text":"是不是被刪了之後還有辦法挹注我們健保來幫助我們度過疫情的難關嗎有沒有健保是自己他本身的總部是嗎那我們刪了預算刪了什麼大概是在業務會26億主要是業務會部長現在行政院已經釋出善意未來如果朝野有這樣共識我們事實上可以透過追加預算的方式解決從中央到地方遇到因為藍白亂三預算的困境你知不知此"},{"start":5851.055,"end":5876.206,"text":"如果有這個機會你支不支持如果有這個機會我們站在人品的健康的立場當然是希望能夠補充那如果有機會追加預算要不要把過去疫情期間透過這樣的方式讓診所來幫忙吸納洪峰的這樣的作為也考慮進去會不會考慮這是一個很好的方向你說很好就可以了 往下看所以接下來我們談一個健康台灣深耕計畫這是不是賴總統的政策"},{"start":5877.239,"end":5897.049,"text":"是會不會是權力推動這個會很重要的一個政策第一年變成60億嘛對不對是的好往下看但是我們看申請模式你們分成ABCD是的對不對有醫療機構有社區醫療群有專科醫師學會還有工會對不對是的這裡面呢大概是以A12 A3這樣為主來提供是不是這樣"},{"start":5897.95,"end":5911.533,"text":"以這個前A向為大中嘛A向比較大中對好那我們來看一下A向的情況怎麼樣來我們屏東啊在A向的醫療機構當中我們地區有15家區域院4家沒有準醫學中心也沒有醫中"},{"start":5912.182,"end":5929.991,"text":"但是台北市有八個醫中一個準醫中十家區醫院跟地區醫院如果按照我們現在要做健康台灣的計畫我們這個資源顯然的對於我們偏鄉治療機構照少的比較不足因為你們的審查原則標準有沒有辦法確保在不同級數的"},{"start":5931.328,"end":5953.147,"text":"地區跟類型都可以得到總經會當中適當比例的補助當然可以因為我們ABC就是都考慮到當時的狀況其實醫學中心要接這個他必須要去做好一個垂直整合也是非常非常重要 辛苦那我們很多 如果以屏東來講這四家區醫院都可以"},{"start":5954.228,"end":5980.361,"text":"都可以主情來申請我往上跳來世家學院怎麼做我們看非醫學中心可以獨立申請或者用工會來整合該縣市的醫療機構其他A2嘛A2就是其他醫療政策我看過你們的資料往下跳其實我要說的是說這是一個不同的六都跟非都各地方的一個差別就算是醫師工會我們屏東醫師工會的量能也不能跟高雄跟其他六都來比你了解嗎所以才需要申請計畫"},{"start":5982.542,"end":5994.132,"text":"對 那深耕計畫說你們是不是在更弱勢的縣市應該更需要這些來挹注是的 所以我這邊就要跟您如果要確保我們看下一頁所以你看看我們撰寫計畫檢報陳顯審查機制"},{"start":5997.138,"end":6024.093,"text":"這些其實規模越大的醫療機構它越有能力去因應它的分工系但是我們醫療機構缺乏說我們人力無法負荷有沒有辦法可以額外的協助分量級可以額外的支持可不可以好 我們有分區啦所以大概不會忽視到弱勢的區那如果需要額外的協助在公平的審查之下我們當然是樂於協助我意思說不是只有公平的審查在"},{"start":6024.973,"end":6052.964,"text":"撰寫計畫的這個過程那麼額外的給一些人力或一些能量的協助其實我在這邊要跟全國的醫療院所講不要覺得自己沒有能力寫你只要寫出你的特色我們這個不是在申請國科會計畫啦OK 了解不然就要寫到整堆了是我做了三十年的國科會計畫每次都要寫很多這個你只要提出你的idea你的重點你的當地的重要性其實就會受到重視"},{"start":6053.464,"end":6067.615,"text":"好 我們屏東的醫師公會 我們屏東的醫療機構給部長拍拍手希望你要說到做到 我們要把序列提出來你要給我們公平的機會 讓我們有適當的我們一向很重視屏東的醫療機構好 謝謝謝謝周委員的諮詢 現在有請賴慧如委員諮詢請好 謝謝主席 有請我們的衛福部部長還有我們莊仁祥署長莊署長"},{"start":6081.277,"end":6107.134,"text":"委員好是 部長 署長好部長 署長還有所有我們衛福部的同仁謝謝你們從2019年COVID-19開始到現在其實之前我在衛環委員會其實都很深刻的感受到大家其實在這個疫情發生的期間你們所付出的一個辛勞真的要非常謝謝你們"},{"start":6107.754,"end":6137.094,"text":"那在這一段時間就是說我們很多防疫的一個措施那雖然目前我們防疫已經降級了那這個COVID也轉為第四類的傳染病可是在近期我們好像看到又不斷的有這個疫情的一個上升為什麼因為病毒不斷的這個演化可是我們的疫苗有沒有持續的就是說在進進那甚至就是說在"},{"start":6139.035,"end":6162.687,"text":"這個本土的一個死亡的病例我們可以看這個資料裡頭看看就是說在最近這幾個幾週裡頭很明顯很明顯就是說他們一直上來那在這裡要請教部長部長 是有沒有特別比較好的一個防疫的一個措施現在其實一定在進行中那你的總預算你的總預算是3700億"},{"start":6166.01,"end":6166.812,"text":"維護部的總預算是3700億那就是我們機關署呢"},{"start":6173.36,"end":6201.182,"text":"機關署你的預算多少?120億來 那個機關署你是不是那個?今年應該好像500億左右啦那明年是100 爭取120億明年爭取120億那好 在這個機關署裡頭這個120億有95億是用來做防疫的一個計畫可是你這個防疫的計畫其實你還防艾滋啊 防很多流感那你放在COVID裡頭 你放了多少錢?"},{"start":6203.524,"end":6224.119,"text":"38億左右肺炎的一個防疫95億裡頭你放了38億39億那這39億在執行的情況之下現在已經進到6月了那你覺得在未來如果有這個疫情的一個增加你有沒有辦法去應付"},{"start":6224.619,"end":6248.59,"text":"應該是說面對這一波的疫情應該是比較大雖然我們這個抗病毒藥物大概還有43萬人份但是我們可能要到8月的時候看一下它使用的狀況那如果因為秋冬可能還有一波啦所以我們雖然還有大概10萬人份的那個貝拉維的部分也會考慮進去應該是不是還需要再增加這個抗病毒藥物"},{"start":6249.19,"end":6260.662,"text":"所以你隨時準備要增加嗎就是說我們的公會疫苗一直傳說就是在大S那一波已經用掉了"},{"start":6260.99,"end":6283.593,"text":"那是流感疫苗的部分這個是新冠疫苗不一樣那你的公會疫苗現在還有多少目前大概還有300萬劑新冠疫苗的部分300萬劑那我們在上個禮拜看到的你的庫存是308萬7千那你幾乎是一個星期打掉了3萬劑我們現在看到的是上個禮拜大概6萬7"},{"start":6285.054,"end":6299.035,"text":"六萬七千劑左右那目前每一天大概都一萬多劑是啊那這樣子的話你顯然你有沒有辦法去應付就是就是後續的這些大爆發的狀況"},{"start":6300.457,"end":6320.185,"text":"應該是說目前因為它整個疫情其實很快啦就是大概只有一個月之內大概就到高峰了所以我們現在也在鼓勵民眾在打疫苗但是就是說目前其實我們在各個縣市的一個診所其實都只要民眾願意打我們都可以提供沒有問題"},{"start":6322.786,"end":6337.211,"text":"那在這裡我再特別請教部長怎麼樣改善公會疫苗的採購跟庫存的一個評估那我們從衛福部裡頭那個的資料我們認為就是說你寫得很清楚喔這個2024年是550萬劑的COVID的一個採購那使用的情況"},{"start":6341.873,"end":6360.806,"text":"我們看不到比較明確的一個公開的一個數據可是在流感疫苗的採購裡頭就寫得非常的清楚反而是流感寫得很清楚COVID寫得不是那麼的一個清楚那相較於過去你在最近這一期你做了多少的一個調整"},{"start":6363.372,"end":6380.825,"text":"你說使用量嗎使用量沒有關係你就講使用量我們當然是希望那個宣導該施打的對象要趕快來盡量施打盡量把這個採購的用盡量把它使用"},{"start":6382.182,"end":6399.208,"text":"所以就顯然就是說這些都是在你的準備當中都是在你的掌握裡頭所以你不至於說我們會隨著疫情說實在那個先導的強度會更需要啦可是你的預算被砍了那個就是先導會被砍了六成啊那你現在到底夠不夠錢啊"},{"start":6400.936,"end":6412.868,"text":"那當然做需要花錢的先導就可能會影響但是我們所以你看羅一金副書長整天在寫臉書 整天在開記者會寫臉書開記者會 那錢啊 錢怎麼辦啊"},{"start":6419.895,"end":6443.026,"text":"所以說主計處在這個地方你要哀啊你要講啊今天其實就是換了一個場景到這個地方來在九樓就是財政委員會的地方我覺得你應該就是也有所準備真的很謝謝財政委員會的關心這個要謝謝我們耐斯堡召委他特別排了一個這個案子讓我們大家都說過因為耐斯堡召委也是醫療中人是很了解醫界的狀況"},{"start":6446.408,"end":6453.793,"text":"是啊所以就是說非常清楚因為經過討論嘛大家會看到就是說整個衛福部的一個困境那如何如何來補上來這個也是要跟部長就是也鼓勵也請你那個提出來就是說是不是有趕快那個提出最佳預算來補強防疫的一個宣導的一個需求你光是這個宣傳費用就被捅三個六成這個多嚴重啊"},{"start":6476.028,"end":6494.846,"text":"這個是非常嚴重的謝謝委員 我已經請那個機關署在超前部署來估算那我相信政府一定會來支持我們防疫所有的預算跟資源好 那部長跟你提到的基層醫療院所目前的這個疫苗處置費用100塊"},{"start":6496.508,"end":6517.085,"text":"那這個100塊當然是不夠的我們從那個兒科醫學會裡頭他有特別講到了就是說光是基層的醫療院所他們要儲存一個疫苗他們需要相關的專業冷藏的冰箱還要需要不斷電的系統還有溫度的一個監控這施打的經過還要經過"},{"start":6519.107,"end":6539.183,"text":"就是我們醫護人員的三讀五對一定要打得很正確人要施打也都是要校對的很清楚光是這些冷鏈的設備人力的一個行政還有就是物流的一個運輸那如果像他們這樣換算一個疫苗一支就要410塊"},{"start":6541.164,"end":6562.103,"text":"那在醫學中心平均要到592塊那有沒有機會我們重新再來就是說考慮提高這個疫苗處置費用的補助的金額呢那個是不是請那個我先補充一下我還是在這邊謝謝賴委員在過去幾年尤其在防疫COVID防疫當中對於疫苗處置費的爭取"},{"start":6565.445,"end":6592.533,"text":"讓基層醫療院所謂的打疫苗所以鎖住了疫情是幫助非常大那有關於這個要提升這個部分我們已經有在可能的話來爭取明年有更多的預算那能爭取多少我們會再繼續努力所以說部長就是我們會提升那我們提升這個補貼我們一定往這方面來努力對那就是說這阿舊娘是不是這樣說可以這樣講"},{"start":6596.089,"end":6602.356,"text":"應該是這樣子,可以這樣講好,謝謝部長,也謝謝周圍的資訊好,謝謝下一位請李坤成委員資訊請謝謝主席,我們請邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":6619.454,"end":6647.091,"text":"委員好部長好這個難得可以在我們財政委員會可以有時間留那麼久我第一屆進來的時候就到財政委會當委員所以這裡很熟悉很熟悉那請教一下部長因為今天我看到有報紙的頭版有提到是說我們食藥署昨天有發布食品良好衛生規範準則那明定的攤販不能碰完前再處理食物那同時也把外送納管在內"},{"start":6648.112,"end":6671.056,"text":"然後呢 這個當然有一些正反的意見當然民眾對民眾來講如果那個食品安全衛生是最重要的但是對於這些小吃業者來講會覺得說這個規範似乎有點老民尤其現在很多是一個人的或是兩個人的像遇到這種情況之下我想先請問一下這個規範準則預告多久了我請王副市長是113年預告的"},{"start":6677.278,"end":6681.442,"text":"那預告時間有沒有什麼樣的反應大家有不同的意見有關於這個小吃攤洗手這個部分其實在我們預告期間並沒有收到任何回應"},{"start":6693.41,"end":6717.807,"text":"蛤?真的?是大家不知道有這個預告嗎?因為這個一定會有人反映嘛我就說大家不知道有這個預告是不是?但怎麼會沒有人反映呢?針對這一點報告委員我們剛剛有確實在回顧一下確實在這個部分上是沒有收到回應沒有收到回應所以你們這個預告是公告告你的網站就對了?是我們是從中心隊員的預告中心去做預告所以所謂什麼攤商協會什麼他們知道這個預告嗎?我們會同時會通知工協會"},{"start":6721.766,"end":6744.519,"text":"通知哪裡通知相關的工協會都會通知都有通知就對了所以理論上各個類似這一種什麼攤販攤商協會的他們都知道這一個規定報告委員攤商協會是不是確實知道這個可能我們要查詢一下再跟委員回覆但是跟委員報告就是有關這個部分的GHP我們現在雖然昨天正式公告實施但是在執行面就像剛剛部長所提的一定是先輔導優先"},{"start":6745.66,"end":6765.991,"text":"那另外跟委員補充即便是輔導期過了之後在正式實施衛生局如果查到攤商有相關違反的部分因為他是GHP的規定所以他是要優先讓他改正他只要能夠改正並不會受罰好那我先問一下輔導期有多久報委員這個應該是輔導到大家都有辦法能夠配合辦理"},{"start":6767.089,"end":6784.026,"text":"輔導到大家都有能夠配合辦理對就是因為目前各攤商的回應是說就像剛剛委員所提的藝人的攤商可能在同時又要做這個料理食材又要收錢這方面很困難那事實上我們也會去推廣說當然這個手部保持清潔很重要"},{"start":6784.406,"end":6807.221,"text":"那也會建議攤商是不是嘗試使用這個用食物的食夾來夾取食物這樣他的手就不會直接接觸食材或者是戴手套脫手套或者是像其實目前也有一些小的攤商他在找零的部分他是讓客人自請找零這個都有所以我們會再去找相關的工協會來討論看怎麼樣來有一個好的一個做法來讓各個攤商都能夠去能夠達成我們的這個目標"},{"start":6808.066,"end":6837.168,"text":"我覺得你們真的要去做一個宣導啦因為這個是對於這一個攤商來講很多是一人或兩個人的那你可以跟我示範講解一下如果一個人的攤商他要怎麼去做處理咧剛剛跟委員報告就是說比如說一個是處理食材的時候比如說他準備好這一個手搖飲好了是然後咧然後他要收錢的時候他就脫掉手套然後收錢所以這是一種方式"},{"start":6837.728,"end":6853.708,"text":"或者是像比如說我今天要油炸甜甜圈啊這些東西我在炸的時候我是可以用這個夾子去做相關的處置就是不會讓我的手跟這個食材直接接觸或者有些我們也看過有些技術蠻厲害的這些攤商的師傅他可以一手處理食材一手收錢"},{"start":6854.861,"end":6874.64,"text":"可以這樣子嗎只要那隻手不要同時碰到食物跟錢就可以了就是手部要保持清潔衛生不要直接接觸錢所以接觸後如果大家能夠這個出發點是好的啦對於這個消費者來講他當然希望說這個我們拿到的食物是乾淨的那對於這個攤商來講我就是說因為現在就是很多是一個人兩個人的"},{"start":6875.561,"end":6889.283,"text":"它很難啊就是說會同時這一個你說這一個接觸到食材之後呢然後比如說除了一個手套或是說間隔多久然後才能碰到食物那這樣才是符合規定的"},{"start":6890.246,"end":6912.336,"text":"包委員就是不要摸了錢以後再摸起來不要連續性的動作嗎他中間如果有經過一個清潔的程序洗過手以後那這個程序怎麼走我們會再找這些相關協會或者直接找我們攤商的夥伴一起來我覺得要加強宣導啦真的要加強宣導那就像是副署長嘛就是說宣導期有多久"},{"start":6914.025,"end":6934.171,"text":"報告委員我們目前沒有去強調這個宣導期就是目標當然就是希望所有的業者都能配合一起共同維護食安好那就是我請教一下部長我們的宣導期就是到大家都能夠來適應這樣的作法因為你們這個也不是說而且這是一個應該是一個比較保持食安的一個方向"},{"start":6935.191,"end":6958.382,"text":"有一個方向在那邊 大家一起來努力 就會讓國家也許在食安方面可以更進步這其實方向我支持 但我也希望說所以不是輔導到大家都可以來試驗 來做對啊 因為你說這個預告人時間超過一年 結果沒有任何的反應我是覺得說 那一定是大家不知道這件事情你看今天如果報紙寫出來的時候 大家一定知道這件事情一定會有不同的反應出來啦"},{"start":6958.982,"end":6966.956,"text":"至少我們自己有覺得說那這樣子這個政策方向是好的但是這個手段可能在這個過程當中會有點擾民"},{"start":6969.776,"end":6992.118,"text":"我們會輔導 往這個方向那所以也不是說這個抓到 就是輔導期輔導期就是說你抓到之後也不會馬上發言就對了建議跟他宣導教育這樣子的 先做這樣子那你們有沒有一些相關的一些文宣物資出來啊好 我們會來研議 跟相關的工協會來研議那現在還沒有吧一起努力現在還沒有"},{"start":6993.187,"end":7009.63,"text":"那多久的時間可以報告委員 這個我們會後回覆因為我不是負責食品的這個部分所以我會去確認以後跟委員報告好 那問一下這個部長現在COVID-19疫情有上升的這個情況那我請問一下這個變化連假的這幾天這個疫情還有在上升嗎"},{"start":7015.523,"end":7036.679,"text":"有關重症的部分目前因為它屬於落後指標所以目前還在上升至於急診的部分目前上升的幅度有比較緩一點還是在上升但是我們會密切監視那你們預期的高峰期是到哪時候原來預期大概是在6月底、7月初"},{"start":7037.6,"end":7039.061,"text":"疫苗接種率太低了?"},{"start":7056.062,"end":7081.857,"text":"對就是說有關新冠疫苗因為它是一個在疫情期間大家很多人接種很多劑那也有很多人感染過所以導致一些民眾甚至醫師他們都不認為說還需要再打啦但事實上就是說這個疫苗事實上對於一些比較屬於65歲以上或是高危險族群還是需要的這個部分那一般的民眾如果你有接種的話也是會對於預防重症還是有重要性"},{"start":7082.83,"end":7093.663,"text":"那現在這一個有關於這一個疫苗還是免費的嗎目前還是公費沒有問題還是公費沒有問題供應上還是沒有問題就對了好 那我要請教一下現在之前有人在說這個快篩試劑不夠的問題有這個問題嗎"},{"start":7099.909,"end":7123.095,"text":"快餐四季如果是家用的話的確我們疫情起來我們會要求我們就要求廠商趕快來做然後一直跟通路包括連鎖藥局四大超商通路一直在鋪貨那到六月半開始的確會可能沒有辦法百分之百買得到那目前我相信是大概一半那到六月中我們"},{"start":7125.416,"end":7150.843,"text":"產貨會比集管署一級的需求量的兩倍以上所以那個時候在 我想每一天都在努力鋪路所以是六月中六月中量一定超過需求的兩倍所以那個是應該大家都在就近就可以來得到那我想請問一下現在使用快篩的這一個時間點因為一定是跟高峰期的那時候不一樣嘛所以大概什麼樣的時間點上會需要一般人也需要使用到快篩"},{"start":7152.304,"end":7170.967,"text":"因為我們以前使用快餐有可能是說因為我醫療我用醫療來講我也帶過醫師公會前面會開過一百次的全國防疫會議所以大概知道現在的專家也有提議說真的是比較可能會重症的才塞"},{"start":7172.088,"end":7194.51,"text":"那我覺得這個各種專家都有他不同的意見那我認為民眾如果覺得不要去囤貨但是如果覺得需要篩還是可以篩這樣子以前篩是有比如說他可以請假啦或是說怎麼樣的現在沒有了嘛就是說一般人現在因為有一個好處啦因為篩了以後他把"},{"start":7195.41,"end":7205.114,"text":"這個數據弄好也許給醫師去看醫師可以做一個當時就更快的判斷也有幫助啦OK謝謝李委員好謝謝好謝謝李委員我們現在會請游國文諮詢幫我們游國文諮詢完畢以後休息十分鐘"},{"start":7214.761,"end":7230.563,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位烈士官 大家早我在這邊先聲明有關疫情需求的部分 預算的部分我們請衛福部儘早送到立法院來我們會全力來協助主席 謝謝有請衛福部邱部長"},{"start":7236.055,"end":7261.584,"text":"林委員好部長早部長現在疫情升溫的現在在升溫是那很多人都在網路上面謠傳說是因為藍白的立委刪了疫苗的預算那我想要在這邊跟部長請你做一下說明就是說疫苗採購的預算是編列在基金目前根本就沒有所謂的刪減跟凍結那會不會要趁這個機會來告訴民眾不要誤信謠言是不是這樣子 部長"},{"start":7269.671,"end":7283.74,"text":"當然基金的財產也是公務預算補助啦其實都有互動但是這一次的基金的購買是沒有刪除的對 就是疫苗防疫的部分但是在凍結剛剛你有提到1000萬的那個那個是業務費"},{"start":7284.68,"end":7300.227,"text":"那個部分有影響到我們對 你剛剛說的是另外一部分我現在問的部長已經解凍了啦我們要很明確不是解凍歸解凍那是另外一件事我們要說的就是疫苗採購這些部分不管是這個包括我們"},{"start":7301.848,"end":7318.704,"text":"審計部的這個部分也是在1213114年的也都是這個都是在這個疫苗基金裡面所以這個部分也都沒有所謂的刪減或凍結所以要在這個機會讓衛福部來說明就是說疫苗的基金"},{"start":7319.845,"end":7347.951,"text":"預算完全沒有凍結跟刪減對不對部長是不是那個署長要不要先回答一下我再報告一下就是有關那個公務基金公務預算補這個疫苗基金的部分原來有凍結1000萬疫苗的部分有凍結不過已經解凍了不是你剛剛提到凍結就是剛剛業務費的部分對業務費那除了之外所以應該這麼講就是說目前這個也還沒有二三讀所以根本就沒有凍結買疫苗的錢一文未減這是很明確的"},{"start":7348.351,"end":7370.844,"text":"那第二個就是2021年6月7號到2023年的5月1號期間因為為了要鼓勵醫療院所協助執行大規模的新冠疫苗接種作業所以政府提供每人這個公費疫苗100元的處置費另外100元額外加碼的這個獎勵金這個獎勵就是要作為醫療院所不收掛號費的一個補貼這是明確的這是對的嘛"},{"start":7375.387,"end":7389.734,"text":"所以現在短少的100元獎勵金的部分是因為我們衛福部這邊沒有編列這100元的獎勵金對不對那個是用特別預算 現在沒有特別預算對 所以是因為我們衛福部這邊沒有編列這100元的獎勵金對不對"},{"start":7395.084,"end":7406.077,"text":"因為那個要有特別預算才有啦沒有這個預算所以沒有編嘛所以不是因為預算刪減的問題是因為沒有這個預算沒有這個特別預算所以沒有編所以這樣很明確我們是在這邊要澄清這些謠言謝謝部長這部分我想還回歸正題因為"},{"start":7415.677,"end":7442.441,"text":"都有廉價我們的急診數你剛剛有報告上升了許多像這個是急診就診人數45.9%然後這個住院人數較前一週上漲了18.6%那所以我想在這麼高的一個就診人數的一個情況趨勢這往上升那我們外部會不會再一次把新冠升級為法定傳染病會不會有沒有這個"},{"start":7443.301,"end":7468.409,"text":"因為他本來就第四類傳染病 新委員的執行那傳染病其實是依照致死率 發生率還有傳播速度等危害程度來分類那現在因為整個國際間包括WHO也把這樣的新冠變成一個常規監測的方面所以目前來講還沒有到達需要去升級的地步就是說如果有這個必要我們就會來做這樣子的一個判定"},{"start":7469.929,"end":7495.917,"text":"那另外我再請教就是說我還是要提醒衛福部就快篩用藥還有邊境的檢疫事後後續的這些醫療處理這個部分我們因為你們推估從6月到7月初是疫情的高峰嘛對不對從5月底到8月初整體染疫人數將會上達高達170萬人次170萬人所以現在民眾都很關注我們的所有的防疫作為尤其像快篩試劑現在不足嘛"},{"start":7496.437,"end":7511.082,"text":"現在不足 馬上會補對 你有提到 我知道剛剛我聽到你的報告那包括這個抗毒 抗病毒的藥物等等這些要讓它盡快的充足那另外我們警官署最近也跟這些我們醫界的團體舉行過會議"},{"start":7512.942,"end":7537.274,"text":"整個研疫的研疫新冠病情的這些防疫作為都聚焦在這個快篩試劑還有抗病毒的藥物那你剛剛都說了很多也說得很完整那我是要提醒就是說我們還是要告訴民眾要告訴民眾說如果出現了新冠疫情的病狀我們還是要如果是比較輕的病狀還是要在診所就醫診所就醫是的那如果像"},{"start":7538.594,"end":7566.152,"text":"這種症狀嚴重的還有長者跟小孩的部分才建議到醫院那確實是因為說我們現在目前Common Lighting的施打情形你剛剛有報告了所以你現在也是鼓勵民眾要盡速的來施打Common Lighting對不對是這樣子的我們10月1號還沒有打的現在6個月以上就會打最好是大家有一個問題就是美國的CDC"},{"start":7567.193,"end":7581.007,"text":"他說如果家長和醫生同意有必要新冠疫苗仍是健康兒童的接種選項但是他這個觀點跟美國的衛生部長他日前的宣布不同調"},{"start":7582.148,"end":7606.303,"text":"美國的這個衛福部長在社群媒體上面發布影片說他非常高興的宣布從今天起針對健康兒童健康孕婦的新冠疫苗已從疾病管制預防中心CDC預防接種建議時程中移除所以我要請教部長說那現在我們國內在施打的疫苗都是美國的莫德納"},{"start":7608.206,"end":7619.869,"text":"他是一家美國的部長跟他們的CDC有不同的看法那他們連美國衛福部部長都對於他們的疫苗都有疑慮那我們衛福部"},{"start":7620.683,"end":7635.13,"text":"要的指引是什麼我們有堅強的防疫專家我們的任何怎麼施打包括騎乘換尾其實都有經過ACIP請教說為什麼他們的衛福部長會要求"},{"start":7640.293,"end":7656.809,"text":"等於是說跟他們的CDC不同調然後認為說健康的兒童跟健康的孕婦不適合施打他們的疫苗主要是因為本身美國的部長他本身也是一個反疫苗的一個人士"},{"start":7657.429,"end":7681.265,"text":"那再加上說他是希望說FDA美國FDA在今年10月的時候的那個就是有關健康有關兒童跟孕婦的這一塊能有更多的證據來提供所以他是希望說可以進行一些臨床試驗主要是因為他是認為過去的這個很多人感染很多人這個也打了疫苗那這個評估很難做一個建議不過這個部分我們事實上"},{"start":7685.567,"end":7710.372,"text":"會 其實各國有各有不同的意見那我們會在收集之後在ACIP的一個我們國內ACIP的委員在做一個討論來做一個建議 以上好 謝謝署長那我再請教病床的問題部長你是醫界出身那我非常尊敬你但是像急診擁塞沒有病床這個部分我看到你們的報告書裡面是寫是"},{"start":7711.252,"end":7737.799,"text":"告訴我們說病床是充裕的但是我們實際知道的情況這個從這個健保署重度急救責任醫院急診及時查詢結果到6月2日子林口長庚有147人台大醫院有119人等待住院那隨著這次疫情的升溫我們醫師職業工會也都跳出來講說一切的窘境都往這個"},{"start":7739.919,"end":7758.393,"text":"惡化的方向演進那家屋病房人力不足人力流失而縮緊人手關閉病床那不同的醫院之間也依靠電話逐床逐院問床總是問不到願意接手的醫院那急診醫師只能感嘆的說不要生重病不要生重病那外部在這邊"},{"start":7760.414,"end":7789.108,"text":"有什麼不就措施我們在過年那一波其實已經建立好有三大策略兩大方向第一個就是分級分流要做好院內的病房的病床的調控要配合急診的需求還有當然提高提高相關的給付這個其實都有幫忙我相信都有幫忙那剛剛您提的這個是大概是禮拜一的狀況台大醫院大概禮拜一都會大概一百二十個"},{"start":7789.848,"end":7793.932,"text":"我們在講重症病床是比較充裕那當然就職的人士是比較多一點是有這樣子我們不要讓第一線的醫護人員我們一定會努力醫護人員的諮詢我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7819.892,"end":7823.468,"text":"那麼現在可以發變動的各位如果需要可以用站的"},{"start":8418.51,"end":8424.835,"text":"好 向委員會報告我們繼續質詢我們請陳立軍委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請這個沈記長沈記長 陳沈記長請 洗手間那邊請部長那我們先請那個衛福部好了好 請 請部長 請"},{"start":8447.829,"end":8470.789,"text":"委員好部長好 辛苦了我知道你也相當關心我們金門的醫療可是我們金門醫療有三大問題想跟你在這邊探究一下第一個就是醫事人員不足還有第二個就是癌症治療中心我們一直希望可以做這個癌症的治療中心也反映很多次第三個就是住宿型長照機構的問題各個署如果聽到 自己上來協助一下"},{"start":8471.69,"end":8479.673,"text":"第一個醫事人員不足的部分您看一下這個表格平均每萬人的職業醫師數112年的時候我們就比金馬鵬離島我們的每萬人是6.1個醫生鵬戶跟我們人口差不多他們是11.42快要我們的兩倍牙醫師也快我們的兩倍藥師我們1.18他們3.06我們說護理師15.47他們30.44幾乎都是他們的一半護士也是那尤其最近一陣子以來"},{"start":8500.582,"end":8515.005,"text":"前一陣子有一段的離職潮在金門醫院金門醫院以前很少遇到病床很缺但是最近我們接到相當多的民眾反映就是沒有病床沒有病床的原因並不是沒有床而是開不了床"},{"start":8515.646,"end":8531.088,"text":"因為沒有足夠的護理師包括還有一些專業的比如說麻醉的這個還有民眾跟我反映喔就麻醉的這個麻糊也沒有造成想要生產都沒辦法晚上沒辦法只要等白天那這樣生小孩是沒有辦法等嘛所以真的是這樣子"},{"start":8531.568,"end":8547.248,"text":"這是實際發生的情形所以這個醫事人員不足的部分我想我們在之前我在衛環委員會的時候那時候還是陳時中那個部長擔任部長的時候那時候我就有跟他提過他提過這個醫事人員不足的時候我們衛福部是有一個健康台灣生根計畫嗎有一個這個"},{"start":8549.491,"end":8578.561,"text":"深耕計畫那四大範疇裡頭其中有的是優化醫療工作條件那就是說對金門這個我想請求您對金門醫事人員及護理人員每月加發一萬元津貼還有外來對金門服務的護理師提供交通和住宿補助這個部分你們這個金門醫院事實上也提出來了也有選這個衛福這個系統在開會的時候提出來那現在您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":8579.641,"end":8601.013,"text":"謝謝委員對金門醫療的支持跟關心那對金門醫療的資源或人力的一個津貼的補助我相信是衛福部非常重要的一個考慮點所以以現在目前來講我們金門在籍的公會醫師其實我們培育的"},{"start":8603.934,"end":8622.304,"text":"回不去 公會醫師培育蠻多的 沒錯那護理人員當然我們也努力在鼓勵回不去的原因是因為我們的這個職缺不足所以相對的 前一陣子已經去年已經增加一些職缺 但是還是不夠你看我們萬能人口的職業醫師數還是遠遠低於澎湖"},{"start":8625.286,"end":8638.113,"text":"就是說他們回不去是因為沒有這個缺欸不是說我們醫生夠這是兩件事可能是不是說要用那個他生活在金門的你是要用生活在金門的人來講金門福利不錯嘛可能"},{"start":8641.499,"end":8668.88,"text":"有些長期住台灣他還是使用台灣的資源但是長期住台灣的金門鄉親也是來來回回的現在因為這個房屋稅的關係很多人事實上把戶籍都遷回去了最近就遷了幾千個人走了所以有房屋稅嘛要自住嘛所以很多人遷走所以事實上我們的人員還是不夠你剛剛說回不去就是因為沒有缺嘛"},{"start":8669.76,"end":8695.829,"text":"衛福部的醫院 金門醫院它的缺不足嘛並不是說我們醫生夠 而是缺不足讓公費培養的醫生回不去好 反正不管是醫師也好 護士 護士也是不足嘛這個問題 護理師也是不夠這個問題 當然待遇啦離島也比較遠 可能離鄉背井不容易我知道剛剛有一個 你們的副市長有在講就是說 好像說待遇還可以對不對 但是其中你看看你們那個 我們金門當地的這個金門醫院的"},{"start":8696.829,"end":8707.477,"text":"人員組成的就是醫師啊護理師醫事人員的這些組成的待遇裡頭其中有一個是金門縣政府出的錢耶有沒有看到是不是那個旁邊的那個請副市長那個"},{"start":8712.071,"end":8729.796,"text":"報告委員我們這個金門就像剛剛部長講的在籍的人口的確是有14萬但是其實實際住在金門本島到深一點聽不到實際住在金門本島是不到涉及14萬的一半這樣子差不多一半對我們目前那個金門醫院是光是自己聘的醫師就有59位"},{"start":8730.776,"end":8752.903,"text":"我知道我都知道醫師人數我的意思就是說我的意思就是說現在的確面臨的跟以前不一樣的就是說最近一陣子以來這個床都開不出來民眾反應很多那就是護理人員留不住護理師留不住留不住的原因床開不起來就因為醫護比嘛1比15那開不起來嘛開不起來開不起來結果就造成民眾的這個不方便跟困擾嘛"},{"start":8753.843,"end":8782.989,"text":"那造成大家還要有的還要往台灣就醫事實上非常的不便利所以這個部分請你們回去看怎麼做像照說你看說當帶一根差不多的時候還是因為金門縣政府貼錢金門衛生局貼錢進去留任獎金給他們金門縣地方政府出錢所以這個部分你們回去想看怎麼做應該這個東西應該中央來做回去那個還有癌症治療中心也一樣現在只有化療嘛很多患者都要來回這中央要機票住宿陪病很多開銷事實上很多"},{"start":8783.729,"end":8812.291,"text":"我們政府也要做一些補貼嘛 對不對那這樣子事實上這個已經文明直覺很多次金門縣政府也反映很多次啊所以設置金門的放射治療中心還有這個還沒有這個事實上反映很多你們這個也去研究一下具體告訴我們說是不是可行怎麼做你整個數字統計一下好多人過來中間政府也是要花錢啊那這還沒有放射治療前研議是不是給他一些補助方案是不是再提高還是怎麼樣你們算一下做一個報告給我"},{"start":8813.232,"end":8825.646,"text":"好的好的然後還有長照的這個部分住宿室長照您看一下這個表金門的住宿室長照是零比起澎湖6家8家8家我們是零那這個你看全國這個比例的這個表格裡頭你看金門縣的這個"},{"start":8828.129,"end":8829.09,"text":"我們現在其實整體社區的"},{"start":8846.559,"end":8874.327,"text":"整體照顧體系已經佈建58次兩個A 35個B 21個C我知道我知道我的意思是說我是在跟澎湖比啦因為澎湖跟我們的人口各方面相當又是離島那這個部分就我剛提的這三點醫事人員對醫事人員癌症中心就是這個放療的這個癌症中心還有這個長照的住宿場的這個部分是你們回去把這個相關的這個整理一下然後大概一個月內可以給我吧"},{"start":8874.747,"end":8879.451,"text":"好的好的 一個月給我這三項的報告那我們要請一下那個審計部審計長 謝謝審計長 這個有吹哨者向我舉發說有協會領補助款但是在偷渡是在罵在野黨在高中辦這個228活動但是是在罵在野黨領的還是文化部的補助"},{"start":8899.85,"end":8903.433,"text":"媒體也有相關的報導而且除了這個以外財務上還不尋常經費上比如說媒體有做相關報導有人調查桌長時薪高達一千元海報設計四萬攝影師六萬這樣的這些都是來自文化部來自納稅人的錢就是說有一些協會"},{"start":8922.11,"end":8939.049,"text":"有文化部給一些協會做相關的這個補助但他補助的這個核銷這個過程中有一些費用相當的這個不合理我們有提了相關的這個表格那我提供給您看就參考就是其中有兩個我看過這個有一個您看一下在這個表格裡頭有一個"},{"start":8939.91,"end":8953.098,"text":"台中文化行動協會之前媒體還報導他們出錢出高鐵票錢這是政府的補助活動讓民眾上台北來清涼就是在立法院前面抗議他們來出錢那這補助的錢來自文化部媒體有報導我也有相關的截圖還有這個剛剛說的熊中是哪一個協會"},{"start":8964.164,"end":8989.882,"text":"高雄市228關懷協會歷來抵抗外來入侵故事的這個在這個過程中都在批評如果你講的是一個很正常的如果你要都要批評國民黨你讓民進黨去補助你拿文化部的錢就要很公平的來做事情而且主要是經費的核銷也有問題所以我請你們依法進行專案查核這兩個多久可以給我報告"},{"start":8991.328,"end":8993.59,"text":"謝謝陳委員的諮詢 下一位請王世堅委員"},{"start":9024.74,"end":9051.147,"text":"謝謝主席 我請衛福部邱部長邱部長請委員好邱部長 我今天三個問題第一個大的問題 波波牙醫就是說 我認為台灣價值最重要的就是我們 尤其是對待我們的下一代"},{"start":9052.355,"end":9081.232,"text":"我們要對下一代 要讓他們有平等的教育權平等的受教權 平等的工作權這才對嘛那波波牙醫就是幫很多家庭富裕的小孩那他們在國內考不上牙醫學系所以幫他們開了一條中南捷徑到波蘭西班牙去"},{"start":9082.338,"end":9096.892,"text":"那麼這不但造成對我們國內的學子們不公平而且現在還嚴重的會影響到我們國內的醫療品質我簡單列這幾項 第一點波波牙醫他們的學歷審核我們在國內要經過 你要"},{"start":9107.438,"end":9129.548,"text":"大學考試那通過那麼窄的窄門都是最優秀的才會到醫學系啊醫學系去啊這你身為台大醫學系畢業你是大學長你非常清楚這非常嚴格的一道窄門那麼進去了以後還要接受嚴格的教學跟訓練實習等等"},{"start":9132.895,"end":9153.564,"text":"他們波波牙伊只要對方國外的這個政府或他們的團體他們承認的就可以天啊現在我們所知道的波蘭西班牙這些地方波波牙伊來自的國家們他們都還為了我們台灣要去"},{"start":9155.702,"end":9173.674,"text":"當波波牙醫畢業的學生他們為了我們台灣的這些學子還開了專班你看這樣的專班會是什麼樣的品質那我們國內還有這樣特定在辦這個禁"},{"start":9176.924,"end":9201.405,"text":"國外 波蘭西班牙醫學系 牙醫學系的這樣子的仲介天啊 這已經形成一道新的產業鏈其實波波牙醫他們還可以遠距教學本來是因為COVID-19遠距教學 現在他們不是他們繼續 他們說重大變故就可以繼續遠距教學我請問啊 在台灣我們可以這樣嗎"},{"start":9202.966,"end":9216.351,"text":"然後我們新的醫師法還規定表面上說我們國內所有學生見習實習啊都可以啦混在一起其實我們國內的醫學系啊醫學系學生人家不必"},{"start":9217.833,"end":9244.942,"text":"人家實習就是實習見習只是在旁邊看欸實習才是動手做啊結果這個也是為波波牙醫大開方便之門然後另外最扯的是OSCE啦臨床技能測驗在這一個部分我們本土的牙醫系醫學系都必須要考欸只有波波不用考天啊"},{"start":9246.513,"end":9255.64,"text":"那另外你們還開了有幾道啦你們有說有啦116年以後以後要全面實施這個Qualified的考試資格考那也就是說117年之前"},{"start":9261.708,"end":9279.401,"text":"總共推估會有1600位1600位波波牙醫是沒有經過我們台灣國內的這個資格考天啊 這對我們國內的學子們公平嗎對我們全體國人他們的健康"},{"start":9280.563,"end":9299.841,"text":"有保障嗎你看國外人家美國 加拿大 英國 日本你看他們如何嚴格我想我想你非常清楚嘛邱部長你非常清楚啊美國他們還要通過他們有特定的機關ESMFD證書喔 他們除了住院醫師培訓醫師執照考試以外還這麼嚴格喔所以在國外的評定學習認證的這個"},{"start":9307.127,"end":9332.025,"text":"難度美國加拿大英國都列為五星企業五星企業加拿大他們要通過MCCOE英國他們也有很多這一方面的測驗臨床實習的要求那日本更不用講日本這個我們太知道日本人他們的規模他們的要求更嚴那更直接的啦"},{"start":9333.154,"end":9361.936,"text":"我講更直接的我們鄰國 韓國跟新加坡人家他們直接就認定波蘭 西班牙 這不行他直接名列天啊 我們台灣不是我們台灣為他們大開方便之門所以我請問你啦現在我們已經退回了這一個部分你們另外幫他開了一條路說啊 這個叫做偏鄉醫療計畫要讓波波來加入 可以漂白"},{"start":9362.697,"end":9391.725,"text":"好啊 現在這個民意大反彈 退回你們再重修我請問 現在修了以後是不是這個臨床 欸不是臨床喔 你氣到說不下去這個偏鄉的計畫 是不是要修正 要取消 你的看法好 謝謝委員的關心第一個 我就做回應第一個 偏鄉這個計畫 絕對沒有一定要本土醫學系畢業"},{"start":9393.19,"end":9418.465,"text":"才能到片鄉 而且是他這個計劃裡面是要補足還是要開方便之門就對了你就是還是要開方便之門沒有沒有沒有 完全一定要台灣的牙醫學系畢業所以波波是沒有機會的好難得 你說的喔就是這樣做的就這麼樣做的喔而且都已經在行政院那個都已經處理了 好 就是取消波波"},{"start":9419.005,"end":9423.789,"text":"因為那個偏鄉那個計畫沒有破破的任何機會都是本土醫學就是國內台灣牙醫系畢業的才有資格當然要考過醫師執照第二個就是說還是跟委員報告一下這個問題其實是長久以來的問題我們現在是怎麼樣去把它好好的解決但是至少有一個鎖住點就是每年不會超過50名"},{"start":9445.825,"end":9464.739,"text":"我跟你講喔 50名都太多 我們照說欸 你知道嗎 台大牙醫學系跟成大牙醫學系就是包括全世界各國啦對 成大 台大 20名 加起來49名也不到你說的50名啊等於我們啊 外包了一個醫學院在"},{"start":9466.155,"end":9477.319,"text":"在波蘭 在西班牙一樣可以這樣子做嗎我認為這個名額 我有提案當然這個提案我拖了一年成門大家不支持我認為應該要根據我們國內牙醫學系一年畢業的學生的一成"},{"start":9482.821,"end":9495.169,"text":"我們全一年畢業才入局才350位那一層35位我認為以一層為限啦我因為時間有限我另外請教你兩個問題就是說在5月30號上個禮拜那麼醫用快篩庫存食藥署盤點也就是說剩15000劑但是我們全國光是基層診所就12200家啦"},{"start":9506.576,"end":9513.922,"text":"請問啊 就一家只有一劑嗎然後其他的大型醫院那怎麼辦呢那診所一家一劑這夠嗎 你的看法"},{"start":9516.311,"end":9539.516,"text":"包委員我想一萬多所診所其實也不是每一家都是看感冒的啦當然有復健診所各種診所包括起來是一萬多家那其實有在看的的確像基層醫療協會林立南理事長有表達說要注意到醫用快篩的一個量能那這個部分不管是家用或者是醫用"},{"start":9540.456,"end":9555.784,"text":"我們因為過去如果不用那麼多的時候你也很難要廠商去做那麼多啦我們現在一個禮拜才四萬五千元才四萬五千元而已啊跟六月 保證 跟委員保證六月中的時候六月中我們家用 醫用都會超過都會超過需求"},{"start":9559.405,"end":9566.81,"text":"主席抱歉我一分鐘問這句很重要的一件事情我們這次4100億的特別預算裡面有1670億是社會支持這裡面社會支持的這個部分有170億是剝交衛福部來針對弱勢以及獨居老人他們做照顧那我盤算了這個總金額以後我認為170億還會有剩所以我希望把這一"},{"start":9587.462,"end":9601.959,"text":"這個部份加入就是加入我們對於殘障朋友身障朋友他們的自立生活這個部份做幫忙為什麼因為自立生活讓身障朋友們他們可以去就學"},{"start":9603.24,"end":9630.238,"text":"就業可以去參與藝文活動甚至去參與娛樂活動這些都是需要謝謝委員的支持可不可以把這170億剩餘的部分我們來演繹我們來演繹成長朋友們讓他們去自立生活我們來演繹好不好好 謝謝委員的支持謝謝委員 謝謝現在麥玉珍麥玉珍 麥玉珍委員不在王玉民委員請"},{"start":9640.373,"end":9644.554,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請部長有請部長 邱部長委員好部長好 部長我先請教你就是今天新聞報得蠻大的就是食藥署它修正了衛生規範準則那就是這些小吃攤如果它先碰了錢再去碰食物的話那你們現在是要罰六萬到兩億"},{"start":9668.2,"end":9680.33,"text":"坦白講這個金額聽起來是蠻高的就是說一般人的印象就會覺得小吃店這個有沒有不符合比例原則那第一個我想要問你的就是說事實上這個我們相關的衛生規範"},{"start":9683.573,"end":9698.129,"text":"就是往前進然後保障消費者食的安心我覺得這個方向性是對的但是你們在公告之前我想問你們說你們有沒有仔細去了解這些小攤商他的樣態"},{"start":9699.29,"end":9721.631,"text":"還有就是說他是不是能達到有沒有辦法透過輔導機制先行去協助大家譬如說他一人作業的時候也是可以怎麼樣不接觸食物但是又可以達到服務的功能因為事實上我也看過有些小吃攤他是一人他還是可以這樣做譬如說他就是用刀具跟夾子"},{"start":9722.532,"end":9751.011,"text":"然後加上手套就他還是可以完成這個工作但是可能有的人他是過去已經習慣用手接觸但是他不知道怎麼樣有個更好的方法其實可以來落實那我第一個我想請教就是說在政策實施之前規範實施之前你們有沒有先行輔導先去宣導或是找這一些夜市攤商小吃攤大家來開個會議演繹一下說我們打算怎麼做聽聽大家的想法有沒有"},{"start":9751.977,"end":9771.545,"text":"報告委員剛剛16時有回應這個是有預告期一段時間沒有沒有 也有跟攤商協會溝通這個請那個王副市長來來負責的承辦人講一下有跟攤商溝通嗎因為今天媒體報出來是攤商大反彈"},{"start":9772.485,"end":9789.418,"text":"跟委員報告我們在去年預告之後是有跟攤商協會有進行過溝通也有發文那目前也有在準備宣導文獻那如剛剛部長所提示我們這個之後還是會以輔導優先那另外跟委員報告有關死案法的規定如果違反GHP的話其實不會立即開法"},{"start":9791.5,"end":9803.054,"text":"我們衛生局會先給予限期輔導限期改善所以通常是在限期改善之後預期沒改才會考慮是不是要採取行政裁罰所以並不會馬上就有罰則這個事情"},{"start":9804.673,"end":9827.652,"text":"我覺得這件事情就是你們在執行的過程不夠細膩啦雖然你說你有預告期然後也找了攤商協會但你要知道我們台灣的這個小吃攤何其多我們號稱美食王國我們的夜市的攤商非常多那你現在找了一個代表來他不見得把所有的資訊真的都讓他們了解要不然就不會有今天一上報之後"},{"start":9828.512,"end":9846.437,"text":"可能這個攤商的情緒反應是感覺好像從來沒有被溝通然後一知道之後他甚至不知道說是先行輔導然後不改善連續多次不改善再開罰他一聽到六萬到兩億元真的是嚇壞了所以我覺得這個好的政策也要有好的配套這個"},{"start":9848.057,"end":9864.531,"text":"執行的過程當中一定是要很細膩所以我要求你們這個部分應該是要先去溝通然後先去輔導那開法的部分我覺得這個部分你們在行政財兩方面這個部分不應該先行就是你自己應該在增訂有一個輔導期"},{"start":9866.112,"end":9888.798,"text":"就是輔導多久然後讓大家適應然後也接受新的方法因為這件事情要多重配套嘛一個就是說你們怎麼樣去輔導另外一個就是說我們的這個電子化的交易別的部會也有相對責任就是說盡快去達成那的確就可以讓我們這個消費者時的更安心但是同樣也沒有造成這一些要做生意者的困擾這個才是雙贏啊"},{"start":9889.818,"end":9896.541,"text":"我們一定是全力去溝通跟福島那特別是福島先行福島旗就是要到福島到他們都可以做到為大概一個目標我覺得這樣子才是真正的雙贏我們並不是要懲罰攤商我們並不是要懲罰他只是希望說他有更好的貴賓習慣共同邁向食安的更進一步這樣子所以這是"},{"start":9912.749,"end":9924.254,"text":"大家往正面的來想,也許是對國家是好那我們絕對是用輔導到大家都可以做到為止好,就是一定要先輔導,好不好好,謝謝榮委員的執行現在要請黃珊珊委員執行,請謝謝主席,我請邱部長邱部長還有是有莊署長莊署長"},{"start":9944.522,"end":9969.584,"text":"委員長是 部長好我想很難得在財政委員會看到你但是今天的題目很重要就是最近的疫情的確讓國人都很憂心尤其在COVID-19當那幾年的過程中也謝謝部長我們當時打了一場美好的仗雖然我們政黨不同或者是有不同的立場但是當時的台北市政府跟中央的確是完成了艱困的工作"},{"start":9971.286,"end":9985.745,"text":"謝謝委員當時的支持您那時候是醫事公會理事長那署長也都非常努力但是這個新冠肺炎特別條例在112年已經廢止了那新的"},{"start":9987.006,"end":10001.814,"text":"疫情起來不管它發生什麼事那當時在去年的3月11號其實賴政府上任之前薛瑞元部長任內其實曾經預告過傳染病防治法的部分條文修正案"},{"start":10002.674,"end":10030.175,"text":"也就是說因為COVID-19的關係所以我們發現了非常多以前傳染病防治法裡面缺漏的東西第一個要怎麼樣做防疫隔離侵害人民權利當時都是靠著指揮中心的行政命令但事實上有很多東西是應該要入法的是部長同意嗎是的是的署長你當時也在把這個傳染病防治法是要把所有的防疫期間的經驗都入法不是嗎應該是說會"},{"start":10032.756,"end":10053.458,"text":"當時我們有這個修法的部分是有針對在疫情期間有碰到一些問題因為所有的疫情發生的時候都沒有人知道要怎麼辦所以做了很多很多的行政調整但是疫情過後這個法為什麼公告以後到現在沒有送到立法院來"},{"start":10055.189,"end":10067.955,"text":"應該是說我們有送到行政院行政院沒有通過應該說還在審查當中部長你知道這個事嗎你也不知道你接任以後你什麼時候要送來呢還是你什麼時候要跟行政院溝通這件事呢你覺得重不重要"},{"start":10071.636,"end":10097.344,"text":"當然很重要 我也覺得很重要我們在COVID的時候我們不知道什麼叫做強制隔離我要把人搬走的時候民眾會跟你抗議第二個侵害人民權利 這個電藥官 那個電藥官這些東西都是用行政命令它的確是疫情期間不得已的做法但是必須要有法律的授權這個大家同意嗎"},{"start":10098.544,"end":10122.012,"text":"是第二個我們當時甚至不知道要關到哪裡去所以搞了一個叫做防疫旅館防疫旅館給他什麼權利義務也不知道也沒有SOP這都是一個一個摸索過來的所以部長今天你難得在裁委會我希望傳染病防治法正式已經公告部分調整修正案行政院快一年了上任一年多了到今天沒有下文"},{"start":10123.012,"end":10144.426,"text":"您身為部長尤其是經過這麼重要的COVID我覺得這個修正案有必要盡速的快速的進到立法院來討論因為這裡面還有牽涉到各個部會必須配合當時我們就發現了一個問題因為是衛福部在主導整個防疫過程所以教育部國防部都是"},{"start":10145.307,"end":10164.892,"text":"不知道自己要幹嘛如果指揮中心沒有教他幹嘛他也不知道自己要幹嘛所以整個過程非常非常的凌亂這不能怪任何人但是因為我們的法治不夠完備部長那你能不能答應我你要什麼時候把這個案子至少在行政院有個初步的方向送到立法院來呢"},{"start":10166.015,"end":10180.06,"text":"好 我想我們立即來立即來處理 這個修正案都在 不是不在您上任後 這個應該成為我們應該說中華民國最重要一件事不是等現在疫情再起的時候 又來兵荒馬亂又來再開始討論各部會要幹什麼"},{"start":10183.661,"end":10211.34,"text":"是當時的確是混亂的但是當時有非常多的經驗我想署長在這邊您也在這裡好 我們要直接以過去的經驗趕快把這個是這裡面包括各司的揭露到底這個能不能公佈那個人在哪裡能不能公佈我要去那邊傾銷還被人家罵說為什麼告訴人家我的傳染病在這邊都是問題第二個 名利怎麼調度民眾跟相關的機關怎麼參與這些都需要法源依據"},{"start":10211.82,"end":10230.888,"text":"好的 好不好 部長你可以一個月給我一個初步的書面回覆 好的 好的時程表 然後行政院你要怎麼去努力然後爭取行政院盡快的通過 好的 好的 好不好這個我覺得是比什麼都重要啦 這個很重要比你現在買疫苗什麼那是眼前的事 但是這個是長治久安的事 是的"},{"start":10232.509,"end":10249.016,"text":"5月20號WHA它其實有決意通過一個大流行病協定我們不在WHO所以WHA通過了這個它將來會各會員國建立病原體的共享機制加速疫苗藥物的開發還要提供20%的產量給開發中國家我們會不會因為不是相關的會員國而被拋棄在這個機制之外"},{"start":10258.211,"end":10275.759,"text":"好 謝謝委員隨行這一個重要的問題其實我們過去也不是在WA WHO的會議裡面也沒有在大流行性的草擬當中但是我們台灣真的是我們很認真的履行我們的義務但是我們享受不到權利這才是我們的問題嘛"},{"start":10276.559,"end":10280.722,"text":"其實那個權利現在目前在WHO這些國家也是非常爭議啦有的也不願意按照裡面的嫌疑去做連美國都不想去了嘛所以我的意思是說國際上有這樣的創新我們不希望台灣是孤兒"},{"start":10292.11,"end":10311.937,"text":"但是台灣絕對不會是孤兒因為我們的醫療很強各個專業組織我們都有國際的交流這個是我們要做到的啦不要成為孤兒弄到我們還要自己研發疫苗一定要讓我們台灣的人民絕對不會因為政治的因素受到影響我們會努力時間暫停我請一下沈機長兩位請回沈機長請"},{"start":10325.649,"end":10342.307,"text":"我們審計部是要針對行政相關的政府預算要提出審計這是中華民國憲法的規定但是審計部因為我們憲法的依據是挾在所謂的監察院底下現在我就有一個比較好奇的地方"},{"start":10343.408,"end":10372.118,"text":"立法委員是用選舉產生所以他有每四年做一次檢驗那很多的行政機關由監察院來做糾正跟彈劾那現在發生的好像是監察院自己發生了監察委員行為不當或者是在預算上面使用有瑕疵可是我查了一下沈議長我們從頭到尾這幾年對於行政機關違反法令的不當支出其實你們是可以剔除的對吧"},{"start":10374.404,"end":10375.168,"text":"對那你們有剔除過嗎有"},{"start":10378.366,"end":10407.566,"text":"這三年有嗎有這三年有剔除嗎可是我查了這三年的中央政府總決算被剔除的數字是零大概地方政府還有因為地方政府有 中央政府沒有中央政府沒有你有沒有剔除過監察院的預算沒有沒有 為什麼是不敢剔除還是他們都沒有問題他現在是這樣每個中央機關每個都有那個內部審核人員是有的意思是說我們就以現在這個案例來好了現在這個案例"},{"start":10408.986,"end":10429.678,"text":"審計部是監察院的下屬機關第二個你們要跟監察院跟審計部跟業務協調匯報你們要去討論相關審計的業務但是監察委員也是你們討論的對象但是他們發生問題的時候請問審計部要做什麼事情因為監察委員沒有人可以彈劾他"},{"start":10432.493,"end":10447.165,"text":"檢查機關他有一個自律委員會自律而已 只能自律但是你審計可以做相關的查核報告不是嗎這個我們會了解所以就這個部分我希望你做專案查核"},{"start":10448.387,"end":10461.007,"text":"專案審計監察院的預算刮別人的鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨不要讓監察院背負這樣的惡名如果只是幾個人的行為不當就把它檢查清楚"},{"start":10462.076,"end":10484.354,"text":"我們會了解 審計部可以給我一個這樣的報告嗎好一個月之內至少就這個預算的執行至少在審計方面你們可以做一個初步的討論初步的結果可以嗎可以好謝謝好謝謝黃委員的質詢下一位何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在王振興委員請質詢"},{"start":10495.65,"end":10502.642,"text":"謝謝主席 賴昭偉有請邱部長還有莊署長兩位總統請是"},{"start":10505.239,"end":10527.207,"text":"委員好部長好還有署長好今天的主題就是最近疫情再起有關於相關的因應措施不過我先針對剛剛黃珊珊委員的意見我非常的同意傳染病防治法的修正應該要儘速處理所以我在未完委員會也會持續的針對這個案子的修正的部分持續來請部長這邊來加油"},{"start":10530.348,"end":10548.849,"text":"那今天要有三個問題來直接請教部長那我就把所有的問題都處理好以後再麻煩部長跟署長來做回應包括這個快篩鋪貨還有抗病毒的儲備跟用量的預估還有強化疫苗施打跟落實長照機構防疫的部分我們也知道"},{"start":10550.09,"end":10576.906,"text":"預判這個最近的疫情會到六月底七月初才會達到高峰就是距離現在還有一個月那現在這個速度已經讓大家都非常非常的擔心了所以有關於快篩的撲霍還是有一些民眾認為這個要取得不太容易所以在這部分目前到底它的現況如何等一下請部長來回答第二個就是有關於最近的這個重症新冠合併重症的部分"},{"start":10578.007,"end":10592.331,"text":"去上個禮拜就132例這麼樣的多那這些個案裡面大部分都是65歲以上的長者還有他可能都會合併一些多種慢性疾病最重要的就是他們沒有打過這個沒有接種過J1"},{"start":10594.292,"end":10618.841,"text":"Zen.1就是Zen.1的這個疫苗所以很顯見我們這個疫苗的施打尤其在這些高風險族群是有所不足的所以針對這部分我們如何能夠強化疫苗的施打有沒有機會去outreach到相關的這個單位比如說長照或者是有比較高風險的地方怎麼去強化這個施打疫苗的這個處理措施"},{"start":10619.321,"end":10647.895,"text":"那最後一項就是到底我們抗病毒的藥物夠不夠因為這些高風險族群如果能夠提早用藥物減少通常變成重症的話相信對整個醫療體系尤其在急診跟這個加護單位的這個壓力是可以減輕很多那以上三個問題麻煩部長好 有關於快篩的鋪後部分我想我們都很清楚在去年還加用快篩"},{"start":10649.042,"end":10677.37,"text":"剩一堆然後都一直在送表示說的確是有時候要廠商來生產是必須要有隨著疫情來來變動那他可能有需要生產的時間還有鋪貨的時間所以不能在很快馬上我們覺得疫情已經起來的時候就馬上鋪得很均勻但是到現在為止我們相信我們經過了產量的提升還有鋪路的努力"},{"start":10680.292,"end":10698.611,"text":"應該有一半以上的通路都是藥局都會處理都會買得到然後另外就是在六月中以後我們就再跟家用跟醫用的快篩它的產量就會超過我們預期需要量兩倍"},{"start":10699.597,"end":10718.283,"text":"所以那個時候更加的充裕這部分我想跟委員做報告那至於強化疫苗的施打疫苗現在還有300萬劑那我們也希望65歲以上剛剛委員有關心到這其中很多都是沒有打疫苗的"},{"start":10719.023,"end":10748.063,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓65歲以及多重慢性病的優先來打這是我們真的要拜託我們除了先導以外政府的先導以外我們幾乎每天都是在先導然後也希望所有的醫療院所能夠配合來施打我們知道基層醫療院所來打疫苗的確是辛苦的一件事情但是也希望我們一樣發揮COVID"},{"start":10748.903,"end":10769.725,"text":"那幾年奮鬥的精神我們醫院跟基層一起合作那至於說長照機構這個防疫那更是我們過去的很好的經驗我相信我們只要啟動過去的一個COVID防疫的經驗應該在長照方面包括譬如說台北市我們當時所有的長照機構我們都去跟他打疫苗"},{"start":10770.285,"end":10787.42,"text":"都可以做相關的一個診療甚至到疫情比較嚴重的時候我們也用視訊對長照機構來處理這個部分大概沒有問題那病毒藥物因為我們還有45萬人次所以一個波動的時候大概頂多是18萬人次所以應該是足夠 請放心以上報告"},{"start":10791.809,"end":10796.731,"text":"謝謝謝謝蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉我們不在有號有號有號我們不在黃國昌委員請質詢謝謝主席麻煩有請沈機長沈機長請"},{"start":10816.024,"end":10843.207,"text":"委員好沈記長好針對有關我們公務機關錢亂花不依照規定亂花這件事情沈記長應該很清楚是我長期追蹤的一個議題而且我只要開始追沒有一個結果出來以前我一定會問下去在整個監察院如此頹敗"},{"start":10845.224,"end":10865.931,"text":"監察院如此頹敗的現狀下審計部可以說是從過去到現在國人相對而言比較肯定的一個單位我希望審計部能夠繼續努力繼續加油下去因為當初您上任審計長的時候我是第一次擔任立委"},{"start":10867.281,"end":10882.031,"text":"你那次審計長的投票我投了贊成票我也一直在觀察你當了審計長以後的表現希望審計部的同仁繼續加油開場做了這樣子的勉勵以後我們接下來進入實質的問題針對有關於我們的圓明會竟然一個計畫早就結束了"},{"start":10895.329,"end":10922.847,"text":"結果騙立法院計畫結束了還繼續編預算膽大妄為騙立法院說還有這個計畫這個計畫早就game over了繼續編預算編預算拿來幹嘛出原民會主委的個人專刊一本專刊裡面一半以上全部都是他個人的寫真集我看了那本專刊我是痛心疾首"},{"start":10925.035,"end":10946.643,"text":"我們這些器官首長是把納稅人當什麼 當盤子喔用已經停止的計畫騙立法院騙到預算以後拿去出主委的個人專刊莫名其妙不要以為他下台這件事情就結束我的原則很簡單 錢要追回來這件事情我之前也請"},{"start":10948.24,"end":10975.266,"text":"我們的審計部去做處理最後原民會新任的主委也終於承認了說他們這個有問題再接著下來原民會承認有錯了他用疏失啦好啦沒關係啦給他面子就用疏失啦你如果要我一個比較精準的描述啊根本是違法濫權胡搞瞎搞膽大妄為啊他要說疏失也沒有關係啦"},{"start":10977.699,"end":10996.693,"text":"疏失歸疏失啊 錢要回來啊然後他表示說他要跟審計部請求免檢列 你同意嗎謝謝委員提出這個案子那我們這個案子已經在113年把它檢列100萬"},{"start":10998.447,"end":11025.34,"text":"所以檢列了嗎?對,我們沒有同意園民會的要求他們錢弄回來沒有?因為我一檢列,他們就會處理什麼時候要處理完?一檢列的話,我們會一直追他的把這個錢最新啦,園民會處理的狀況怎麼樣?您會後回去跟同仁了解一下書面回覆給我好不好?可以任何一塊錢"},{"start":11026.821,"end":11055.109,"text":"更何況是上百萬拿去出主委的個人專刊啊莫名其妙啊這種事情我們立法委員沒有盯到底啊我們對不起納稅人啊等於是跟所有的機關首長講什麼大家胡搞瞎搞沒關係啊書做出來的拍拍屁股走人就好啦第二個救安基金你們審出來的結果是七千兩百二十四萬"},{"start":11057.988,"end":11082.321,"text":"6254元沒有符合基金用途的規模接下來的問題結果我們的勞動部竟然說好啦我濫用救安基金的錢我編預算把它補回來沈記長可以這樣幹嗎我們這個案子我們在沈記的立場已經把它檢列作為應收款要勞動部收回"},{"start":11085.65,"end":11107.917,"text":"他什麼時候該收回他現在在盤 整個在盤他整個在談嘛一樣 會後的時候把他們最新處理的狀況你回去跟同仁了解一下書面回覆給我我再一次表明我的立場喔浪花就業安定基金辦演唱會啊擺個人沙龍照啊"},{"start":11110.269,"end":11136.527,"text":"這個錢我一定追回來審計部做到審計部該做的該檢列的你們也檢列了接下來我們就一起把這個該還給納稅人的錢追回來最後一件事情因為主席站起來最後一件事情我不在乎大家的時間等一下我提一個書面檢舉給審計長那審計長看了我的書面檢舉就知道我檢舉什麼事情再麻煩審計部的同仁好好下去查可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":11137.808,"end":11144.834,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員的執行下一位葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在下一位羅明財委員請執行好 謝謝主席 二位人出列習慣人大家好"},{"start":11165.765,"end":11175.512,"text":"主席可不可以請陳審計長審計長請待會麻煩一下也請衛福部的邱部長邱部長請委員好兩位好辛苦喔我想審計長這幾年來應該也做了不少事情那因為"},{"start":11194.502,"end":11220.894,"text":"中華民國相關的有一些推動的預算應該是要花在刀口上那請問一下沈議長你這幾年的努力啊有因為你的努力然後覺得發現比如說有什麼蚊子管啊有什麼浪費的啊你追回來的大概有多少"},{"start":11222.076,"end":11250.845,"text":"我們文書館像這種文書館剛剛講的我們插了五百多件五百多件文字館那五百多件文字館現在慢慢都活化好了還有一兩件還在活化這個部分我們也會繼續的在做第二次明年今年會做在做在整個盤整一下這種還有沒有這種文書館那五百個文字館大概是多少金額三百多億"},{"start":11251.69,"end":11278.939,"text":"三百多億三百多億的閒置在那邊現在已經都要工程會專案整個都活化的差不多了那現在中華民國到底有錢還是沒有錢應該現在的財政狀況應該會逐步中央也逐步轉好地方也逐步轉好因為去年稅收是超徵五千兩百八十億所以其實我覺得"},{"start":11279.926,"end":11301.741,"text":"大概我從政三十年來,國庫是很充裕的錢很多啊,每年稅收也都超徵啊所以現在中央在刪減地方的一般性的補助"},{"start":11303.12,"end":11330.149,"text":"大概是多少錢六百多億因為大院結議中間有一個不明確的地方有六百多億在我的了解他們就做一個刪減可是再怎麼苦也不能苦這些老弱成長啊就給民眾最基本的社會福利不過你剛剛講的幾億嘛"},{"start":11336.291,"end":11354.095,"text":"600多億你蚊子館省下來就有300億了還有很多很多公器私用的很多可以省的所以麻煩沈記長你再盤點一下"},{"start":11356.257,"end":11377.615,"text":"因為匪夷所思,明明中華民國有錢,這挨那挨,然後沒有衛生紙然後,主席啊,說什麼沒衛生紙,還有什麼,啊拜拜沒有乖乖是不是就說好像很可憐這樣子,也不至於那麼可憐嘛"},{"start":11378.888,"end":11399.585,"text":"然後講了說 哇 好像三個幾億會痛 痛得不得了可是我們發現中華民國其他地方可以省得更多啊剛剛文資館就講了就三百億啊還有很多啦你比如說光電好了太陽光電從頭到現在多花了幾兆"},{"start":11404.421,"end":11431.827,"text":"有沒有資料我們這一方面沒有我們知道我們有查過一些光電的案子都移送解掉有什麼案子就台南那幾個案子啊台南有一個斜甲那邊有一些光電的案子那個彰化那個彰冰的地方啊也有一些台南那個案子是多少億這些都牽涉到不少的錢都不少錢齁還有彰化也很多吧幾億"},{"start":11434.702,"end":11459.899,"text":"對 差不多這樣的一個情況都是好幾億嘛 豬麵都是好幾億好幾億所以我覺得開源節流啦那開源的部分歷年來這十年稅收超徵多少這十年來差不多有一兆多有一兆九千億這十幾年來 不然下面那個資料你可以補充一下"},{"start":11461.127,"end":11480.899,"text":"所以在國庫充裕的時候,要去刪減地方的一般性的補助最重要的是補助的這些都是最辛苦的一群小朋友要營養午餐,我們國家未來的主人翁"},{"start":11482.765,"end":11495.926,"text":"所以,沈教麻煩你整理一下然後給我們相關單位了解一下我們的情況該省的省,該花的預算不能砍嘛好不好,謝謝那接著請教一下"},{"start":11497.079,"end":11512.312,"text":"邱部長 也是我們立法院的老同事我請教一下部長最近現在疫情飆升我搞不懂不是已經過去了嗎怎麼又重新再來一次"},{"start":11514.242,"end":11532.455,"text":"這個新冠那個新冠永遠存在永遠會在就是說一直存在一直存在變異株變異株可能會有的比較強所以疫情就會比較嚴重那現在的疫情大概什麼時候會進入高峰期大概六月底到七月"},{"start":11533.84,"end":11561.097,"text":"中這樣子 七月初那你這段時間有一些什麼考試啊 國考很多啊你們就要加強圈導一下一定一定一定我們希望大家都盡量做好預防的動作要多預防啦然後你看看現在還搞一個大罷免大罷免要花多少錢我不太清楚沈記長知道啊大罷免要花12億"},{"start":11563.371,"end":11590.589,"text":"對不對 沈紀長來 沈紀長你又跌個頭就好了 你還要站著說這個因為中選會還沒有整個盤出來它這個部分還要凍住第一二一我還要解開十二億你說罷免 那罷免應該少數才是罷免嘛它變成說普遍的每一個都罷免那勞民傷財啊"},{"start":11593.094,"end":11613.602,"text":"一次花要花我收到的是12億你再算一下看要花多少錢這個錢都亂花剛剛就講這個到了高峰期你要鼓勵大家如果去罷免這個會不會又造成一些防疫上的漏洞"},{"start":11615.973,"end":11642.598,"text":"我們希望所有的活動包括社會活動、教育活動各種活動都要盡量要保護好自己這樣子自主戴口罩那譬如說在比較擁擠的地方到醫院盡量能夠戴口罩那部長現在的這次的疫情會不會比上次那個新冠還要來得兇狠然後更強大"},{"start":11643.649,"end":11672.91,"text":"我是不是請我們專家莊書長回應一下好 謝謝跟羅委員報告那這次的這個新的變異株叫NB.1.8.1是最近這幾個月才剛出現的那它的傳染力比較高一點不過它的致重症的率並沒有特別高就是說跟其他的這個先前的變異株都差不多跟上次比起來比較弱是不是對 看起來是差不多或是比較弱一點對 但是它傳染力比較強"},{"start":11673.55,"end":11686.646,"text":"再加上我們有一年沒有感染了那你們現在那個食藥署推出說攤販找錢就是要可能再摸食物就要被罰六萬到兩億啊"},{"start":11689.036,"end":11702.784,"text":"這個有沒有宣導期還是已經馬上要開始實施今天早上已經在這邊宣布幾次了這需要再更多的溝通然後輔導期我們是有按照法定的程序做啦但是我們體諒到這個"},{"start":11704.985,"end":11716.509,"text":"攤販一定要 我們都來自基層嘛 知道說實際上的狀況很需要大家來調適但是方向是對的啦 對食安比較乾淨啦其實他也做得到啦 還是說沒有習慣我們就輔導 輔導期是直到他們都能做到為止輔導期要多久沒有 他們沒辦法做"},{"start":11729.574,"end":11729.914,"text":"免費的快篩要到哪邊"},{"start":11745.586,"end":11768.455,"text":"那是醫用的快篩啦 現在沒辦法 現在是家用都要去賣一雞八粒你現在去藥局賣都要一雞八粒藥局藥局喔藥局要賣喔超商也有多加強宣導啦 不要變成集體的又感染又散播開不會不會 我們會多元化來防止這是人民的健康"},{"start":11771.596,"end":11791.887,"text":"那個邱部長啊 你話講清楚 你今天這件事情整天下來 我聽你的感覺是那個數鈔票的事情好像一直要輔導下去不發是不是這個意思你剛才也是這樣講喔你剛才意思就是一直輔導下去喔跟委員補充 那一定是輔導先行啦"},{"start":11792.307,"end":11815.838,"text":"那後我們在執法的階段剛剛也跟委員報告事實上在違反GHP的部分它是限期改正所以我們輔導先行那之後如果被發現還有違規的時候那也是先要求他能夠修正修正到正軌就好那如果說多次的這樣的違反他都不配合的話才會開罰這個就很重要你前面說了半天前面的委員聽聽都覺得好像要開罰了"},{"start":11817.139,"end":11820.54,"text":"結果你們到後來才要昏迴所以現在是輔導期所以大家不用怕我們這個邱部長永遠都笑嘻嘻的不會向你口袋要錢朝著食安的方向大家努力但是輔導期可以輔導到"},{"start":11839.468,"end":11848.317,"text":"六萬很多錢耶 六萬到兩億的怕死人我想胡道奇是不會到參法的地方胡道奇就是Forever一直胡道Endless你講好的時間好 你講清楚"},{"start":11856.38,"end":11882.841,"text":"一定要到前立福島跟郭峰你現在當部長的部門跟你前立委一樣啊你跟郭委員都這樣跳舞不能這樣子啊 清楚嗎我剛才就跳舞 我就聽到感覺是福島區就Endless了永遠沒有停止一直福島下去就是這樣我想很快大家都會適應啦不是 你講說一直福島下去直到大家通通結束為止才開始開發這樣這股天要爽"},{"start":11885.163,"end":11885.383,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝所有人"},{"start":11895.671,"end":11920.062,"text":"報告委員會今日登記發言的委員經已詢答完畢本次會議作為如下是決定一 也報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":11920.882,"end":11944.255,"text":"委員麥議員所提的書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面討伐第四 最後一點本次會議議程已進行完畢假如有不在場的委員不提書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並且請議事人員協助處理三位 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162314","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162314","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56414cad2a9554a1471bbacbcf4f939c22c9b36adcf2fc01751c77db01c455e67005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:47:22 - 12:57:42","影片長度":"00:10:20","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:47:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:57:42+08:00","duration":620,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.92534375,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.46846875,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.88596875,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.020968750000002,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.10096875,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.93596875,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.01096875,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.250968750000002,"end":24.347843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.78659375,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.57971875,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.33471875,"end":30.625343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.74346875,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.46034375,"end":34.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.282843750000005,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.89846875,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.75471875,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.02034375,"end":41.712218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.931593750000005,"end":43.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.95221875,"end":45.306593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.88034375,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.60159375,"end":49.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.09909375,"end":51.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.32659375,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.220968750000004,"end":60.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.84846875,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.87346875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.43784375,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.45659375000001,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.73471875,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.52346875,"end":91.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.25721875,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.47221875000001,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.87721875000001,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.82221875,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.56034375,"end":101.09534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.09534375000001,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.13284375,"end":110.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.74346875,"end":114.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.30409375,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.29971875000001,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.27409375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.42159375000001,"end":120.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.73784375000001,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.64909375,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.07909375000001,"end":125.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.37409375000001,"end":127.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.89284375000001,"end":129.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.77409375000002,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.07346875000002,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.35159375,"end":136.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.66346875000002,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.16534375,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.76846875,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.25346875,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.92409375,"end":144.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.47659375,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.18784375,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.60096875000002,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.44471875000002,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.52034375000002,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.57909375,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.85721875000002,"end":169.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.18159375000002,"end":171.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.03346875,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.86034375,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.63659375,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.46346875,"end":176.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.13846875000002,"end":176.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.79659375,"end":177.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.64034375,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.01534375,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.36971875,"end":182.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.62659375,"end":185.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.72346875000002,"end":187.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.56284375,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.22471875000002,"end":191.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.88284375,"end":192.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.94596875000002,"end":193.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.21159375000002,"end":194.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.88659375,"end":196.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.06346875,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.88596875000002,"end":200.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.09659375,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.76721875,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.56846875000002,"end":206.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.88471875000002,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.04909375000003,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.77034375000002,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.39471875,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.90471875,"end":214.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.64721875,"end":216.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.02659375000002,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.67596875,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.41721875000002,"end":230.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.28159375,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.69471875000002,"end":235.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.09096875,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.57596875000002,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.80784375000002,"end":240.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.98846875,"end":245.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.43971875000003,"end":247.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.35096875000002,"end":253.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.38784375000003,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.19784375,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.47909375,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.11159375,"end":270.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.23346875000004,"end":272.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.21221875000003,"end":271.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.91659375,"end":273.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.65909375,"end":274.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.85721875,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.30409375,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.03784375000004,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.05034375,"end":282.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.26534375,"end":283.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.72909375,"end":285.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.74159375,"end":286.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.53034375000004,"end":289.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.75346875,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.90471875000003,"end":296.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.28409375,"end":301.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.87409375000004,"end":302.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.88659375000003,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.41784375000003,"end":305.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.78471875,"end":307.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.98284375000003,"end":308.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.53534375000004,"end":315.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.01096875,"end":322.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.55846875000003,"end":325.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.97159375,"end":326.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.01784375,"end":337.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.83471875000004,"end":339.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.80909375000005,"end":348.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.97221875,"end":349.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.28846875000005,"end":353.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.56221875,"end":353.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.81096875000003,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.03034375000004,"end":362.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.57846875,"end":358.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.87721875,"end":365.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.89784375000005,"end":367.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.03284375000004,"end":366.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.78784375000004,"end":371.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.14596875,"end":373.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.57159375000003,"end":377.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.53346875,"end":376.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.32221875000005,"end":381.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.72659375,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.03846875000005,"end":389.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.35409375,"end":389.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.87721875,"end":389.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.21471875000003,"end":390.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.24846875000003,"end":391.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.96971875,"end":393.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.84284375000004,"end":395.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.89721875000004,"end":397.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.50034375,"end":399.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.17096875000004,"end":400.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.08221875000004,"end":402.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.06909375000004,"end":404.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.84534375000004,"end":405.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.07284375,"end":407.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.23284375000003,"end":411.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.34221875000003,"end":412.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.43909375000004,"end":415.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.20659375,"end":416.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.77596875,"end":419.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.35784375000003,"end":420.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.58096875,"end":426.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.42846875000004,"end":430.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.33909375,"end":432.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.34721875,"end":435.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.37221875,"end":436.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.46471875000003,"end":439.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.63721875000005,"end":441.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.91534375000003,"end":444.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.42971875,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.88096875,"end":447.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.11284375,"end":449.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.73284375000003,"end":450.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.98159375,"end":452.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.63096875,"end":454.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.75284375,"end":466.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.27471875000003,"end":465.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.29159375,"end":465.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.24909375000004,"end":471.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.29471875,"end":474.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.23534375,"end":474.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.77534375000005,"end":474.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.97784375000003,"end":479.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.93909375000004,"end":481.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.66034375000004,"end":483.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":484.41096875000005,"end":487.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.97596875000005,"end":501.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.19721875000005,"end":518.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.28471875,"end":509.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.44784375,"end":518.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.0890937500001,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.9665937500001,"end":521.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.6540937500001,"end":522.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.68346875,"end":523.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.81409375,"end":526.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.34534375,"end":528.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.14659375,"end":533.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.84221875,"end":545.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.2959687499999,"end":566.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.76284375,"end":556.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.3572187500001,"end":558.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.9384687500001,"end":565.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.3728437500001,"end":569.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.22034375,"end":571.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.2709687500001,"end":573.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.94159375,"end":575.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.9072187500001,"end":579.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.1684687500001,"end":583.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.17159375,"end":585.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.6103437500001,"end":594.6553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.9253437500001,"end":596.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.3259687500001,"end":598.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":598.4353437500001,"end":598.4522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.4522187499999,"end":606.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":598.48596875,"end":599.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.1228437500001,"end":600.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.49409375,"end":601.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":601.75971875,"end":602.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":605.80971875,"end":612.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.30721875,"end":610.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.48409375,"end":610.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.9565937500001,"end":610.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.9734687499999,"end":610.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.99034375,"end":611.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.02409375,"end":611.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.2434687500001,"end":611.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.44596875,"end":611.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.8003437500001,"end":611.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.3740937499999,"end":613.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":612.4753437500001,"end":613.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.55534375,"end":618.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.65659375,"end":614.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.15784375,"end":620.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.87909375,"end":620.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.66,"end":25.067,"text":"謝謝主席 二委員出列習慣人大家好主席可不可以請陳審計長審計長請那待會麻煩一下也請衛福部的邱部長邱部長請大家委員好兩位好辛苦喔我想審計長"},{"start":28.491,"end":43.572,"text":"這幾年來應該也做了不少事情因為中華民國相關的有一些推動的預算應該是要花在刀口上"},{"start":44.977,"end":61.73,"text":"那請問一下沈議長,你這幾年的努力啊,有因為你的努力,然後覺得發現比如說有什麼蚊子管啊,有什麼浪費的啊,你追回來的大概有多少?"},{"start":62.915,"end":91.698,"text":"我們文書館像這種文書館剛剛講的我們查了五百多件五百多件文書館那五百多件文書館現在慢慢都活化好了還有一兩件還在活化這個部分我們也會繼續的在做第二次明年今年會做在做在整個盤整一下這種還有沒有這種文書館那五百個文書館大概是多少金額三百多億"},{"start":92.526,"end":115.565,"text":"三百多億三百多億的閒置在那邊現在已經都要工程會專案整個都活化的差不多了那現在中華民國到底有錢還是沒有錢應該現在的財政狀況應該會逐步中央也逐步轉好地方也逐步轉好因為去年稅收是超徵5280億所以其實我覺得"},{"start":120.762,"end":142.548,"text":"大概我從政三十年來,國庫是很充裕的錢很多啊,要每年稅收都超徵啊所以現在中央在刪減地方的一般性的補助"},{"start":143.956,"end":170.99,"text":"大概是多少錢六百多億因為大院結議中間有一個不明確的地方有六百多億在我的了解他們就做一個刪減可是再怎麼苦也不能苦這些老弱成長啊就給民眾最基本的社會福利不過你剛剛講的幾億嘛"},{"start":177.127,"end":194.954,"text":"600多億你蚊子館省下來就有300億了還有很多很多公器私用的很多可以省的所以麻煩沈記長你再盤點一下"},{"start":197.093,"end":218.438,"text":"因為匪夷所思,明明中華民國有錢,這麼矮這麼矮,然後沒有衛生紙然後,主席啊,說什麼沒衛生紙,還有什麼,拜拜沒有乖乖是不是就說好像很可憐這樣子,也不至於那麼可憐嘛"},{"start":219.724,"end":240.401,"text":"然後講了說 哇 好像三個幾億會痛 痛得不得了可是我們發現 中華民國其他地方可以省得更多啊剛剛文資館講的就三百億啊還有很多啦你比如說光電好了太陽光電 從頭到現在多花了幾兆"},{"start":245.257,"end":272.664,"text":"有沒有資料我們這一方面沒有我們知道我們有查過一些光電的案子都移送解掉有什麼案子就台南那幾個案子啊台南有一個斜甲那邊有一些光電的案子那個彰化那個彰冰的地方啊也有一些台南那個案子是多少億這些都牽涉到不少的錢都不少錢齁還有彰化也很多吧幾億"},{"start":275.538,"end":300.711,"text":"對 差不多這樣的一個情況都是好幾億嘛 出面都是好幾億好幾億所以我覺得開源節流啦那開源的部分歷年來這十年稅收超徵多少這十年來差不多有一兆多有一兆九千億這十幾年來 不然下面那個資料你可以補充一下"},{"start":301.963,"end":321.738,"text":"所以在國庫充裕的時候,要去刪減地方的一般性的補助最重要的是補助的這些都是最辛苦的一群小朋友要營養午餐,我們國家未來的主人翁"},{"start":323.601,"end":336.759,"text":"所以省教麻煩你整理一下然後給我們相關單位了解一下我們的情況該省的省 該花的預算不能砍嘛好不好 謝謝那接著請教一下"},{"start":337.915,"end":353.15,"text":"邱部長 也是我們立法院的老同事我請教一下部長最近現在疫情飆升我搞不懂不是已經過去了嗎怎麼又重新再來一次"},{"start":355.078,"end":373.284,"text":"這個新冠那個新冠永遠存在永遠會在就是說一直存在一直存在變異株變異株可能會有的比較強所以疫情就會比較嚴重那現在的疫情大概什麼時候會進入高峰期大概六月底到七月"},{"start":374.676,"end":401.936,"text":"中這樣子 七月初那你這段時間有一些什麼考試啊 國考很多啊你們就要加強圈導一下一定一定一定我們希望大家都盡量做好預防的動作要多預防啦然後你看看現在還搞一個大罷免大罷免要花多少錢我不太清楚沈記長知道啊大罷免要花12億"},{"start":404.207,"end":431.42,"text":"對不對 沈紀長來 沈紀長你又跌個頭就好了 你還要站著說這個因為中選會還沒有整個盤出來它這個部分還要凍住地域要給開10億你說罷免 那罷免應該少數才是罷免嘛它變成說普遍的每一個都罷免那勞民傷財啊"},{"start":433.93,"end":454.438,"text":"一次花要花我收到的是12億你再算一下看要花多少錢這個錢都亂花剛剛就講這個到了高峰期你又變要鼓勵大家如果去罷免這個會不會又造成一些防疫上的漏洞"},{"start":456.769,"end":483.437,"text":"我們希望所有的活動包括社會活動、教育活動各種活動都要盡量要保護好自己這樣子自主戴口罩比如說在比較擁擠的地方到醫院盡量能夠戴口罩那部長現在的這次的疫情會不會比上次那個新冠還要來得兇狠然後更強大"},{"start":484.485,"end":513.743,"text":"我是不是請我們專家莊書長回應一下好 謝謝跟劉委員報告那這次這個新的變異株叫NB.1.8.1是最近這幾個月才剛出現的那它的傳染力比較高一點不過它的致重症的率並沒有特別高就是說跟其他的這個先前的變異株都差不多跟上次比起來比較弱是不是對 看起來是差不多或是比較弱一點對 但是它傳染力比較強"},{"start":514.383,"end":527.452,"text":"再加上我們有一年沒有感染了那你們現在那個食藥署推出說攤販找錢就是要可能再摸食物就要被罰六萬到兩億"},{"start":529.852,"end":543.6,"text":"這個有沒有宣導期還是已經馬上要開始實施今天早上已經在這邊宣布幾次了這需要再更多的溝通然後輔導期我們是有按照法定的程序做啦但是我們體諒到這個"},{"start":545.821,"end":557.323,"text":"攤販一定要 我們來自基層嘛 你知道說實際上的狀況很需要大家來調適但是方向是對的啦 對食安比較乾淨啦其實他也做得到啦 還是說沒有習慣我們就輔導 輔導期是直到他們都能做到為止輔導期要多久他們有辦法做"},{"start":570.407,"end":570.747,"text":"免費的快篩要到哪邊"},{"start":586.423,"end":610.683,"text":"那是醫用的快篩啦 現在沒辦法 現在是家用都要去賣一雞八粒你現在去藥局賣都要一雞八粒藥局在賣啦 藥局藥局在賣超商也有多加強宣導啦 不要變成集體的又感染又散播開不會不會 我們會多元化來防止這是人民的健康 非常重要謝謝委員"},{"start":612.424,"end":620.503,"text":"那個邱部長啊,你話講清楚,你現在這事情整天下來,我聽你的感覺是那個數鈔票的事情"}]}},{"id":"162309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5644d9a259145e9fd2dbbacbcf4f939c22c9b36adcf2fc01751f08deeda106faf485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:26:58 - 12:35:59","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:26:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:35:59+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.19971875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.535968750000002,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.99159375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.379718750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.74096875,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.57971875,"end":28.684718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.140343750000003,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.10159375,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.337843750000005,"end":35.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.15596875,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.555968750000005,"end":43.298468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.99034375,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.02346875,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.187843750000006,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.60284375,"end":67.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.12159375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.29721875,"end":82.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":86.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.21159375,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.97096875000001,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.96659375,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.06346875,"end":94.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.83471875000001,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.86846875,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.33659375,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.15846875000001,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.87971875000001,"end":112.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.66346875,"end":110.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.75596875000001,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.32534375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.88221875,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.35846875000001,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.88534375,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.77096875000001,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.33596875,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.80846875,"end":128.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.14596875,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.27596875,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.47846875000002,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.63846875000002,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.91659375,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.60846875000001,"end":143.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.65909375,"end":139.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.97096875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.19409375,"end":160.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.64784375000002,"end":157.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.66409375,"end":161.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.99721875,"end":163.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.50346875,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.24096875,"end":177.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.58971875,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.02284375000002,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.25346875000002,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.90721875,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.53534375,"end":201.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.82221875000002,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.04534375,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.78346875000003,"end":208.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.39909375000002,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.71534375000002,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.93409375000002,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.58721875,"end":224.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.40096875,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.03721875000002,"end":233.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.63159375,"end":247.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.17159375000003,"end":234.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.57971875,"end":242.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.63784375,"end":247.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.70534375000003,"end":247.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.72221875000002,"end":252.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.78471875000002,"end":256.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.92346875,"end":256.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.73346875000004,"end":275.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.03721875,"end":258.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.80221875,"end":276.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.79784375,"end":276.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.83159375,"end":276.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.96659375,"end":285.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.17721875,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.32409375000003,"end":284.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.64034375,"end":290.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.61909375,"end":289.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.89284375,"end":296.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.28096875,"end":290.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.20846875,"end":295.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.25471875,"end":320.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.58409375,"end":334.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.76784375,"end":340.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.98284375000003,"end":337.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.60659375,"end":350.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.24221875,"end":356.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.74409375000005,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.11034375,"end":365.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.20284375,"end":358.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.51909375,"end":361.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.17659375000005,"end":370.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.38284375,"end":376.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.56721875000005,"end":379.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.59159375,"end":382.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.98346875000004,"end":385.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.87784375,"end":388.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.34159375,"end":389.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.52284375000005,"end":403.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.27159375,"end":406.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.39346875,"end":428.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.17909375000005,"end":431.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.58784375000005,"end":436.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":437.16096875000005,"end":437.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.37596875,"end":439.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":440.50221875000005,"end":441.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.20659375,"end":443.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.25284375,"end":443.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":443.28659375,"end":443.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.79284375000003,"end":443.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.02909375,"end":446.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.40846875000005,"end":449.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.07034375,"end":450.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":450.47534375000004,"end":450.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.49221875,"end":450.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":450.52596875,"end":452.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.09534375000004,"end":454.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":452.11221875,"end":452.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":453.85034375000004,"end":455.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.81221875000006,"end":457.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":457.00596875,"end":457.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.71471875000003,"end":458.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":458.86221875,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.09846875000005,"end":460.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.39784375000005,"end":460.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":460.78596875000005,"end":469.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.96221875000003,"end":471.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":470.06721875000005,"end":470.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.59846875000005,"end":476.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.17159375000006,"end":487.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.60034375000004,"end":494.04659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.97034375000004,"end":504.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.74659375000005,"end":498.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.61971875,"end":499.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.88096875,"end":507.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":507.59721875,"end":508.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.93034375,"end":511.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":511.51221875000005,"end":511.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.15346875,"end":523.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.4890937499999,"end":525.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":526.07534375,"end":526.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.6828437500001,"end":528.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":529.0790937500001,"end":531.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.98596875,"end":538.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.6640937500001,"end":539.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.27159375,"end":539.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":539.30534375,"end":539.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.9297187500001,"end":540.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.84096875,"end":541.7522187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":3.753,"text":"現在主席我請邱部長邱部長還有是有莊署長莊署長吳彥騰"},{"start":9.474,"end":34.754,"text":"是 部長好我想很難得在財政委員會看到你但是今天的題目很重要就是最近的疫情的確讓國人都很憂心尤其在COVID-19當那幾年的過程中也謝謝部長我們當時打了一場美好的仗雖然我們政黨不同或者是有不同的立場但是當時的台北市政府跟中央的確是完成了艱困的工作謝謝委員當時的支持是"},{"start":37.256,"end":65.864,"text":"您那時候是醫事公會理事長那署長也都非常努力但是這個新冠肺炎特別條例在112年就已經廢止了那新的疫情起來不管它發生什麼事那當時在去年的3月11號其實賴政府上任之前薛瑞元部長任內其實曾經預告過傳染病防治法的部分條文修正案"},{"start":66.704,"end":94.218,"text":"也就是說因為COVID-19的關係所以我們發現了非常多以前傳染病防治法裡面缺漏的東西第一個要怎麼樣做防疫隔離侵害人民權利當時都是靠著指揮中心的行政命令但事實上有很多東西是應該要入法的是部長同意嗎是的是的署長你當時也在把這個傳染病防治法是要把所有的防疫期間的經驗都入法不是嗎"},{"start":96.82,"end":117.499,"text":"應該說當時我們有修法的部分是有針對在疫情期間有碰到一些問題因為所有的疫情發生的時候都沒有人知道要怎麼辦所以做了很多很多的行政調整但是疫情過後這個法為什麼公告以後到現在沒有送到立法院來"},{"start":119.237,"end":131.872,"text":"應該是說我們有送到行政院行政院沒有通過應該說還在審查當中部長你知道這個事嗎你也不知道你接任以後你什麼時候要送來還是你什麼時候要跟行政院溝通這件事呢你覺得重不重要"},{"start":135.68,"end":161.389,"text":"當然很重要 我也覺得很重要我們在COVID的時候我們不知道什麼叫做強制隔離我要把人搬走的時候民眾會跟你抗議第二個侵害人民權利 這個電藥官 那個電藥官這些東西都是用行政命令它的確是疫情期間不得已的做法但是必須要有法律的授權這個大家同意嗎"},{"start":162.589,"end":186.04,"text":"是第二個我們當時甚至不知道要關到哪裡去所以搞了一個叫做防疫旅館防疫旅館給他什麼權利義務也不知道也沒有SOP這都是一個一個摸索過來的所以部長今天你難得在裁委會我希望傳染病防治法正式已經公告部分調整修正案行政院快一年了 上任一年多了到今天沒有下文"},{"start":187.06,"end":208.454,"text":"您身為部長尤其是經過這麼重要的COVID我覺得這個修正案有必要盡速的快速的進到立法院來討論你同意嗎因為這裡面還有牽涉到各個部會必須配合當時我們就發現了一個問題因為是衛福部在主導整個防疫過程所以教育部國防部都是"},{"start":209.355,"end":228.931,"text":"不知道自己要幹嘛如果指揮中心沒有教他幹嘛他也不知道自己要幹嘛所以整個過程非常非常的凌亂這不能怪任何人但是因為我們的法治不夠完備部長那你能不能答應我你要什麼時候把這個案子至少在行政院有個初步的方向送到立法院來呢"},{"start":230.063,"end":244.121,"text":"好 我想我們立即來 立即來處理 這個修正案都在 不是不在您上任後 這個應該成為我們 應該說中華民國最重要一件事不是等現在疫情再起的時候 又來兵荒馬亂又來再開始討論各部會要幹什麼"},{"start":247.705,"end":275.388,"text":"是 當時的確是混亂的但是當時有非常多的經驗我想署長在這邊您也在這裡好 我們要直接以過去的經驗趕快把這個是 這裡面包括各司的揭露到底這個能不能公佈那個人在哪裡能不能公佈我要去那邊傾銷還被人家罵說為什麼告訴人家我的傳染病在這邊都是問題第二個 名利怎麼調度民眾跟相關的機關怎麼參與這些都需要法源依據"},{"start":275.868,"end":294.944,"text":"好的 好不好 部長你可以一個月給我一個初步的書面回覆你的時程表 然後行政院你要怎麼去努力 能夠爭取行政院盡快的通過好的 好不好 這個我覺得是比什麼都重要啦比你現在買疫苗什麼那是眼前的事 但這個是長治久安的事是的"},{"start":296.565,"end":313.076,"text":"5月20號WHA它其實有決意通過一個大流行病協定我們不在WHO所以WHA通過了這個它將來會各會員國建立病原體的共享機制加速疫苗藥物的開發還要提供20%的產量給開發中國家我們會不會因為不是相關的會員國而被拋棄在這個機制之外"},{"start":322.256,"end":339.786,"text":"好 謝謝委員隨行這一個重要的問題其實我們過去也不是在WA WHO的會議裡面也沒有在大流行性的草擬當中但是我們台灣真的是我們很認真的履行我們的義務但是我們享受不到權利這才是我們的問題嘛"},{"start":340.606,"end":353.331,"text":"其實那個權利現在目前在WHO這些國家也是非常爭議有的也不願意按照裡面的協議去做連美國都不想去了嘛所以我的意思是說國際上有這樣的東西我們不希望台灣是孤兒"},{"start":356.152,"end":375.983,"text":"但是台灣絕對不會是孤兒因為我們的醫療很強各個專業組織我們都有國際的交流請委員放心這個是我們要做到的啦不要成為孤兒弄到我們還要自己研發疫苗一定要讓我們台灣的人民絕對不會因為政治的因素受到影響我們會努力時間暫停我請一下沈機長兩位請回沈機長請"},{"start":389.695,"end":406.351,"text":"我們審計部是要針對行政相關的政府預算要提出審計這是中華民國憲法的規定但是審計部因為我們憲法的依據是挾在所謂的監察院底下現在我就有一個比較好奇的地方"},{"start":407.452,"end":436.171,"text":"立法委員是用選舉產生所以他有每四年做一次檢驗那很多的行政機關由監察院來做糾正跟彈劾那現在發生的好像是監察院自己發生了監察委員行為不當或者是在預算上面使用有瑕疵可是我查了一下沈議長我們從頭到尾這幾年對於行政機關違反法令的不當支出其實你們是可以剔除的對吧"},{"start":438.43,"end":438.812,"text":"對那你們有剔除過嗎有"},{"start":442.41,"end":471.61,"text":"這三年有嗎有這三年有剔除嗎可是我查了這三年的中央政府總決算被剔除的數字是零大概地方政府還有因為地方政府有中央政府沒有中央政府沒有你有沒有剔除過監察院的預算沒有沒有為什麼是不敢剔除還是他們都沒有問題他現在是這樣每個中央機關每個都有那個內部審核人員是我的意思是說我們就以現在這個案例來好了現在這個案例"},{"start":473.031,"end":493.726,"text":"審計部是監察院的下屬機關第二個你們要跟監察院跟審計部跟業務協調匯報你們要去討論相關審計的業務但是監察委員也是你們討論的對象但是他們發生問題的時候請問審計部要做什麼事情因為監察委員沒有人可以彈劾他"},{"start":496.53,"end":511.229,"text":"檢查機關他有一個助力委員會但是你審計可以做相關的查核報告不是嗎這個我們會了解所以就這個部分我希望你做專案查核"},{"start":512.41,"end":536.477,"text":"專案審計監察院的預算掛別人的護職之前先把自己的護職掛乾淨不要讓監察院背負這樣的惡名如果只是幾個人的行為不當就把它檢查清楚我們會了解審計部可以給我一個這樣的報告嗎好 我們會給各位一個月之內至少就這個預算的執行至少在審計方面你們可以做一個初步的討論初步的結果可以嗎可以好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162307","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162307","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564b4be42145004e58ebbacbcf4f939c22c9b36adcf2fc01751183e890e354bbf0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"12:21:59 - 12:26:48","影片長度":"00:04:49","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:21:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:26:48+08:00","duration":289,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.69284375,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.28721875000001,"end":128.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.60659375,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.55096875,"end":129.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.01909375,"end":135.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.52096875,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.55471875,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.45284375,"end":167.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.95409375,"end":210.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.98534375000003,"end":229.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.57034375,"end":220.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.82221875000002,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.31159375000001,"end":252.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.13909375000003,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.33159375,"end":263.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.02346875,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.81659375000004,"end":265.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.97659375,"end":273.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.03096875,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.58721875000003,"end":275.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.95284375,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.87659375000004,"end":287.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.97346875,"end":287.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.08721875000003,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.96034375,"end":289.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.715,"end":7.899,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請部長有請部長 邱部長委員好部長好 部長我先請教你就是今天新聞報得蠻大的就是食藥署它修正了衛生規範準則那就是這些小吃攤如果它先碰了錢再去碰食物的話那你們現在是要罰六萬到兩億"},{"start":31.539,"end":44.139,"text":"坦白講這個金額聽起來是蠻高的就是說一般人的印象就會覺得小吃店這個有沒有不符合比例原則那第一個我想要問你的就是說事實上我們相關的衛生規範"},{"start":46.923,"end":61.485,"text":"就是往前進然後保障消費者食的安心我覺得這個方向性是對的但是你們在公告之前我想問你們說你們有沒有仔細去了解這些小攤商他的樣態"},{"start":62.626,"end":84.967,"text":"還有就是說他是不是能達到有沒有辦法透過輔導機制先行去協助大家譬如說他一人作業的時候也是可以怎麼樣不接觸食物但是又可以達到服務的功能因為事實上我也看過有些小吃攤他是一人他還是可以這樣做譬如說他就是用刀具跟夾子"},{"start":85.868,"end":114.358,"text":"然後加上手套就他還是可以完成這個工作但是可能有的人他是過去已經習慣用手接觸但是他不知道怎麼樣有個更好的方法其實可以來落實那我第一個我想請教就是說在政策實施之前規範實施之前你們有沒有先行輔導先去宣導或是找這一些夜市攤商小吃攤大家來開個會議演繹一下說我們打算怎麼做聽聽大家的想法有沒有"},{"start":115.322,"end":134.925,"text":"報告委員剛剛石宥史有回應這個是有預告期一段時間沒有跟攤商協會溝通這個請王副市長來來負責的承辦人講一下有跟攤商溝通嗎因為今天媒體報出來是攤商大反彈"},{"start":135.846,"end":152.751,"text":"跟委員報告我們在去年預告之後是有跟攤商協會有進行過溝通也有發文那目前也在準備宣導文件那如剛剛部長所提示我們這個之後還是會以輔導優先那另外跟委員報告有關死案法的規定如果違反GHP的話其實不會立即開法"},{"start":154.853,"end":166.405,"text":"我們衛生局會先給予這個限期輔導限期改善所以通常是在限期改善之後預期沒改才會考慮是不是要採取行政裁罰所以並不會馬上就有罰則這個事情"},{"start":168.018,"end":190.664,"text":"我覺得這件事情就是你們在執行的過程不夠細膩啦雖然你說你有預告期然後也找了攤商協會但你要知道我們台灣的這個小吃攤何其多我們號稱美食王國我們夜市的攤商非常多那你現在找了一個代表來他不見得把所有的資訊真的都讓他們了解要不然就不會有今天一上報之後"},{"start":191.864,"end":209.795,"text":"可能這個攤商的情緒反應是感覺好像從來沒有被溝通然後一知道之後他甚至不知道說是先行輔導然後不改善連續多次不改善再開罰他一聽到六萬到兩億元真的是嚇壞了所以我覺得這個好的政策也要有好的配套這個"},{"start":211.417,"end":228.193,"text":"執行的過程當中一定是要很細膩所以我要求你們這個部分應該是要先去溝通然後先去輔導那開法的部分我覺得這個部分你們在行政財兩方面這個部分不應該先行就是你自己應該在增訂有一個輔導期"},{"start":229.454,"end":252.16,"text":"就是輔導多久然後讓大家適應然後也接受新的方法因為這件事情要多重配套嘛一個就是說你們怎麼樣去輔導另外一個就是說我們的這個電子化的交易別的部會也有相對責任就是說盡快去達成那的確就可以讓我們這個消費者時的更安心但是同樣也沒有造成這一些要做生意者的困擾這個才是雙贏啊"},{"start":253.16,"end":256.842,"text":"我們要全力去溝通跟福島那特別是福島先行福島旗就是要到福島到他們都可以做到為大概一個目標我覺得這樣子才是真正的雙贏我們並不是要懲罰炭商只是希望說他有更好的衛生習慣共同邁向食安的更進一步"},{"start":275.934,"end":276.054,"text":"黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"162311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162311","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564f26c4d688772ff32bbacbcf4f939c22c9b36adcf2fc0175176d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:36:10 - 12:41:25","影片長度":"00:05:15","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:36:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:41:25+08:00","duration":315,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.40534375,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.05409375,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.11784375,"end":38.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.75034375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.62346875,"end":43.416593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.14784375000001,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.20909375000001,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.72784375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.38971875,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.41346875,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.88034375000001,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.41971875,"end":105.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.92159375,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.73159375,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.32221875,"end":149.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.69096875,"end":152.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.28971875000002,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.35596875000002,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.05159375000002,"end":199.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.05034375000002,"end":202.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.96971875000003,"end":211.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.82909375000003,"end":215.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.71034375000002,"end":265.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.79534375000003,"end":295.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.27596875,"end":300.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.07659375000003,"end":302.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.25346875,"end":304.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.27034375,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.37159375000005,"end":304.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.87784375,"end":304.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.94534375,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.96221875000003,"end":305.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.06346875,"end":305.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.16034375000004,"end":307.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.16034375000004,"end":307.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.21909375,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.50971875000005,"end":313.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.02409375,"end":315.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.94784375,"end":315.96471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.142,"end":15.134,"text":"謝謝主席 賴昭偉有請邱部長還有莊署長兩位總統請是"},{"start":17.731,"end":39.678,"text":"委員好部長好還有署長好今天的主題就是最近疫情再起有關於相關的因應措施不過我先針對剛剛黃珊珊委員的意見我非常的同意傳染病防治法的修正應該要儘速處理所以我在未完委員會也會持續的針對這個案子的修正的部分持續來請部長這邊來加油"},{"start":42.839,"end":61.341,"text":"那今天要有三個問題來直接請教部長那我就把所有的問題都處理好以後再麻煩部長跟署長來做回應包括這個快篩鋪貨還有抗病毒的儲備跟用量的預估還有強化疫苗施打跟落實長照機構防疫的部分我們也知道"},{"start":62.582,"end":84.02,"text":"預判這個最近的疫情會到六月底七月初才會達到高峰就是距離現在還有一個月那現在這個速度已經讓大家都非常非常的擔心了所以有關於快篩的撲霍還是有一些民眾認為這個要取得不太容易所以在這部分目前到底它的現況如何等一下請部長來回答"},{"start":84.46,"end":103.861,"text":"第二個就是有關於最近的這個重症新冠合併重症的部分去上個禮拜就132例這麼樣的多那這些個案裡面大部分都是65歲以上的長者還有他可能都會合併一些多種的慢性疾病最重要的就是他們沒有打過這個沒有接種過"},{"start":106.784,"end":131.332,"text":"Zen.1就是Zen.1的這個疫苗所以很顯見我們這個疫苗的施打尤其在這些高風險族群是有所不足的所以針對這部分我們如何能夠強化疫苗的施打有沒有機會去outreach到相關的這個單位比如說長照或者是有比較高風險的地方怎麼去強化這個施打疫苗的這個處理措施"},{"start":131.812,"end":148.319,"text":"那最後一項就是到底我們抗病毒的藥物夠不夠因為這些高風險族群如果能夠提早用藥物減少通常變成重症的話相信對整個醫療體系尤其在急診跟這個加護單位的這些壓力是可以減輕很多那以上三個問題麻煩部長"},{"start":150.82,"end":178.746,"text":"好 有關於快篩的鋪後部分我想我們都很清楚在去年還家用快篩剩一堆然後都一直在送表示說的確是有時候要廠商來生產是必須要有隨時疫情來變動那它可能有需要生產的時間還有鋪後的時間所以不能在很快馬上"},{"start":179.526,"end":201.934,"text":"我們覺得疫情已經起來的時候就馬上鋪得很均勻但是到現在為止我們相信我們經過了產量的提升還有鋪路的努力應該大概應該有一半以上的通路都是藥局都會處理都會買得到然後另外就是在六月中"},{"start":203.035,"end":230.789,"text":"以後我們就再跟家用跟醫用的快篩它的產量就會超過我們預期需要量兩倍所以那個時候更加的充裕這部分我想跟委員所做報告那至於強化疫苗的施打疫苗現在還有300萬劑那我們也希望65歲以上剛剛委員有關心到這其中很多都是沒有打疫苗的"},{"start":231.509,"end":253.617,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓65歲以及多重慢性病的優先來打這是我們真的要拜託我們除了先導以外政府的先導以外我們幾乎每天都是在先導然後也希望所有的醫療院所能夠配合來施打我們知道基層醫療院所來打疫苗的確是"},{"start":254.497,"end":282.197,"text":"辛苦的一件事情但是也希望我們一樣發揮COVID那幾年奮鬥的精神我們醫院跟基層一起合作那至於說長照機構這個防疫那更是我們過去的很好的經驗我相信我們只要啟動過去的一個COVID防疫的經驗應該在長照方面包括譬如說台北市我們當時所有的長照機構我們都去跟他打疫苗"},{"start":282.777,"end":299.91,"text":"都可以做相關的一個診療甚至到疫情比較嚴重的時候我們也用視訊對長照機構來處理這個部分大概沒有問題那病毒藥物因為我們還有45萬人次所以一個波動的時候大概頂多是18萬人次所以應該是足夠 請放心以上報告"},{"start":304.301,"end":306.523,"text":"蘇青群我們不在有號我們不在黃國昌委員請質詢"}]}},{"id":"162313","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162313","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564691eaaed2409397dbbacbcf4f939c22c9b36adcf2fc017510ad873e55dcd76e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:41:30 - 12:47:08","影片長度":"00:05:38","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:41:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:47:08+08:00","duration":338,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.45284375,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7772187500000003,"end":4.418468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.19846875,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.664718750000002,"end":24.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.92159375,"end":26.575343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.94659375,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.726593750000003,"end":31.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.072218750000005,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.11409375,"end":36.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.987218750000004,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.39596875,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.87159375,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.369093750000005,"end":51.735968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.20846875,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":58.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.447843750000004,"end":62.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.721593750000004,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.32846875,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.22659375,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.86721875,"end":77.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.09471875,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.09409375,"end":82.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.06846875000001,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.19034375000001,"end":88.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.26596875,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.35409375,"end":93.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.02034375000001,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.55159375000001,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.04909375000001,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.57596875,"end":106.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.51221875,"end":111.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.11471875000001,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.90721875000001,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.91909375,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.92221875,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.76159375,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.76909375,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.36346875,"end":143.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.53596875,"end":147.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.41721875000002,"end":150.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.37846875,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.00159375,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.81034375000002,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.03346875,"end":177.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.96096875,"end":179.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.41221875000002,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.02721875,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.56659375,"end":208.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.79159375,"end":208.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.73971875,"end":218.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.96721875,"end":220.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.09346875000003,"end":224.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.59909375,"end":229.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.54346875000002,"end":235.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.63534375,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.39846875,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.27159375000002,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.85784375000003,"end":245.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.81534375,"end":247.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.71784375000001,"end":253.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.08409375000002,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.80534375000002,"end":257.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.16784375000003,"end":258.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.83846875,"end":261.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.48784375,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.96409375,"end":266.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.85846875000004,"end":266.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.87534375,"end":272.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.24159375,"end":276.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.42221875,"end":279.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.31221875,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.03346875,"end":281.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.75909375000003,"end":281.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.77596875,"end":283.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.90221875000003,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.60659375,"end":292.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.50409375000004,"end":295.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.91721875,"end":297.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.85784375000003,"end":298.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.88721875000005,"end":300.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.05971875,"end":303.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.88221875,"end":305.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.66659375,"end":310.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.49721875,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.19221875,"end":320.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.60534375000003,"end":321.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.90471875000003,"end":324.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.17846875000004,"end":327.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.18221875,"end":328.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.53659375,"end":329.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.29596875000004,"end":329.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.97096875,"end":330.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.59534375000004,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.12159375000005,"end":338.67846875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.435,"end":4.478,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請沈記長沈記長請委員好沈記長好針對有關我們公務機關錢亂花不依照規定亂花這件事情沈記長應該很清楚是我長期追蹤的一個議題而且我只要開始追沒有一個結果出來以前"},{"start":30.762,"end":58.113,"text":"我一定會問下去在整個監察院如此頹敗監察院如此頹敗的現狀下審計部可以說是從過去到現在國人相對而言比較肯定的一個單位我希望審計部能夠繼續努力繼續加油下去因為當初您上任審計長的時候我是第一次擔任立委"},{"start":59.482,"end":74.212,"text":"你那次審計長的投票我投了贊成票我也一直在觀察你當了審計長以後的表現希望審計部的同仁繼續加油開場做了這樣子的勉勵以後我們接下來進入實質的問題針對有關於我們的圓明會竟然一個計畫早就結束了"},{"start":87.513,"end":114.952,"text":"結果騙立法院計畫結束了還繼續編預算膽大妄為騙立法院說還有這個計畫這個計畫早就game over了繼續編預算編預算拿來幹嘛出原民會主委的個人專刊一本專刊裡面一半以上全部都是他個人的寫真集我看了那本專刊我是痛心疾首"},{"start":117.22,"end":138.85,"text":"我們這些機關首長是把納稅人當什麼 當盤子喔用已經停止的計畫騙立法院騙到預算以後拿去出主委的個人專刊莫名其妙不要以為他下台這件事情就結束我的原則很簡單 錢要追回來這件事情我之前也請"},{"start":140.441,"end":167.45,"text":"我們的審計部啊去做處理那最後原民會新任的主委也終於承認了說他們這個有問題再接著下來原民會承認有錯了他用疏失啦好啦沒關係啦給他面子就用疏失啦你如果要我一個比較精準的描述啊根本是違法濫權胡搞瞎搞膽大妄為啊他要說疏失也沒有關係啦"},{"start":169.881,"end":194.76,"text":"疏失歸疏失啊 錢要回來啊然後他表示說他要跟審計部請求免檢列 你同意嗎謝謝委員提出這個案子那我們這個案子已經在113年把它檢列100萬所以檢列了嘛對 我們沒有同意人民會的要求"},{"start":195.171,"end":224.31,"text":"阿他們錢弄回來沒有因為我一檢列阿他們就會處理什麼時候要處理完一檢列的話他大概我們會一直追他的把這個錢最新阿原民會處理的狀況怎麼樣您會後回去跟同仁了解一下書面回覆給我好不好可以任何一塊錢更何況是上百萬拿去出主委的個人專刊阿莫名其妙"},{"start":225.992,"end":245.964,"text":"這種事情我們立法委員沒有盯到底啊我們對不起納稅人啊等於是跟所有的機關首長講什麼大家胡搞瞎搞沒關係啊書做出來的拍拍屁股走人就好啦第二個救安基金你們審出來的結果是7224萬"},{"start":250.17,"end":274.523,"text":"6254元沒有符合基金用途的規模接下來的問題結果我們的勞動部竟然說好啦我濫用救安基金的錢我編預算 把它補回來沈記長可以這樣幹嗎我們這個案子我們在沈記的立場已經把它檢列作為應收款要勞動部收回"},{"start":277.855,"end":300.118,"text":"他什麼時候該收回他現在在盤 整個在盤他整個在談嘛 一樣會後的時候把他們最新處理的狀況你回去跟同仁了解一下書面回覆給我我再一次表明我的立場喔浪花就業安定基金辦演唱會啊擺個人沙龍照啊"},{"start":302.473,"end":328.728,"text":"這個錢我一定追回來審計部做到審計部該做的該檢列的你們也檢列了接下來我們就一起把這個該還給納稅人的錢追回來最後一件事情因為主席站起來最後一件事情我不再用大家的時間等一下我提一個書面檢舉給審計長那審計長看了我的書面檢舉就知道我檢舉什麼事情再麻煩審計部的同仁好好下去查可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":330.43,"end":338.448,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員的執行下一位葉元之 葉元之 葉元之委員不在下一位"}]}},{"id":"162306","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162306","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564e8759484e4a4d007bbacbcf4f939c22c9b36adcf2fc0175171a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:11:43 - 12:21:48","影片長度":"00:10:05","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:11:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:21:48+08:00","duration":605,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.84909375,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.3890937500000002,"end":5.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.308468750000001,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.328468750000003,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.340968750000002,"end":14.931593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.78784375,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":18.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.28534375,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.15846875,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.21721875,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.73596875,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.254718750000002,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.043468750000002,"end":30.304718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.249718750000003,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.05846875,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.27346875,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.56034375,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.30284375,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.09159375,"end":45.812843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.30221875,"end":46.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.078468750000006,"end":49.086593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.67721875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.83284375,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.30096875,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.77284375000001,"end":60.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.27034375,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.90221875,"end":74.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.05721875,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.57159375,"end":81.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.38034375000001,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.20284375,"end":97.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.46284375,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.86159375000001,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.44346875000001,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.64096875000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.17221875000001,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.84284375000001,"end":131.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.04409375,"end":132.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.23784375,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.79346875000002,"end":146.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.26534375,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.60221875000002,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.59346875,"end":154.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.63534375,"end":159.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.00596875000002,"end":160.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.47846875000002,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.88659375,"end":180.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.52159375000002,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.16534375,"end":195.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.75971875000002,"end":198.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.24034375000002,"end":211.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.25096875000003,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.76534375,"end":217.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.92096875000001,"end":218.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.08534375000002,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.46409375000002,"end":235.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.79159375,"end":239.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.38159375,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.44221875,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.48409375,"end":260.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.78346875,"end":280.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.23596875000004,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.74596875000003,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.64034375,"end":293.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.55034375,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.81471875,"end":311.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.10034375000004,"end":313.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.41659375,"end":315.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.35284375000003,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.24721875,"end":320.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.28034375000004,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.31346875,"end":336.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.78846875000005,"end":341.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.54721875,"end":347.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.61784375,"end":349.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.42346875000004,"end":351.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.04346875000005,"end":353.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.91221875,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.54471875,"end":358.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.11409375,"end":360.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.59471875,"end":363.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.46784375000004,"end":371.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.85471875,"end":375.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.35221875,"end":377.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.49096875000004,"end":377.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.08159375,"end":380.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.32596875,"end":380.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.39346875,"end":380.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.41034375000004,"end":387.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.47784375000003,"end":380.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.00909375000003,"end":383.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.96221875000003,"end":386.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.64971875000003,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.86909375000005,"end":392.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.78034375000004,"end":389.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.95284375,"end":392.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.76284375,"end":397.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.30659375000005,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.97721875,"end":425.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.90534375000004,"end":400.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.48284375000003,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.59159375,"end":409.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.96034375000005,"end":428.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.24659375000005,"end":443.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.58784375000005,"end":435.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.97409375,"end":448.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.29846875000004,"end":460.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.88409375000003,"end":459.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.97159375,"end":461.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.34284375000004,"end":494.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.24471875,"end":515.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.1865937499999,"end":517.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.8572187500001,"end":518.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.17346875,"end":534.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.08409375,"end":528.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.65659375,"end":532.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.9265937499999,"end":537.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.2847187500001,"end":537.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.17471875,"end":539.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.2590937500001,"end":571.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.2959687499999,"end":545.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.07659375,"end":605.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.2240937500001,"end":574.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.35659375,"end":591.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.57096875,"end":597.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.02596875,"end":599.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.8528437500001,"end":604.84784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.721,"end":30.131,"text":"謝謝主席我請衛福部邱部長邱部長請委員好邱部長我今天三個問題第一個大的問題波波牙醫就是說我認為台灣價值最重要的就是我們尤其是對待我們的下一代"},{"start":31.328,"end":60.195,"text":"我們要對下一代要讓他們有平等的教育權平等的受教權平等的工作權這才對嘛那波波牙醫就是幫很多家庭富裕的小孩那他們在國內考不上牙醫學系所以幫他們開了一條中南捷徑到波蘭西班牙去"},{"start":61.331,"end":75.885,"text":"那麼這不但造成對我們國內的學子們不公平而且現在還嚴重的會影響到我們國內的醫療品質我簡單列這幾項 第一點波波牙醫他們的學歷審核我們在國內要經過 你要"},{"start":86.411,"end":108.566,"text":"大學考試那通過那麼窄的窄門都是最優秀的才會到醫學系啊醫學系去啊這你身為台大醫學系畢業你是大學長你非常清楚這非常嚴格的一道窄門那麼進去了以後還要接受嚴格的教學跟訓練實習等等而"},{"start":111.889,"end":132.54,"text":"他們波波牙伊只要對方國外的這個政府或他們的團體他們承認的就可以天啊現在我們所知道的波蘭西班牙這些地方波波牙伊來自的國家們他們都還為了我們台灣要去"},{"start":134.698,"end":148.353,"text":"當波波牙醫畢業的學生他們為了我們台灣的這些學子還開了專班你看這樣的專班會是什麼樣的品質那我們國內還有這樣特定在辦這個禁"},{"start":155.917,"end":180.382,"text":"國外波蘭西班牙醫學系 牙醫學系的這樣子的仲介天啊 這已經形成一道新的產業鏈其實波波牙醫他們還可以遠距教學本來是因為COVID-19遠距教學 現在他們不是他們繼續 他們說重大變故就可以繼續遠距教學我請問啊 在台灣我們可以這樣嗎"},{"start":181.963,"end":195.335,"text":"然後我們新的醫師法還規定表面上說我們國內所有學生見習實習啊都可以啦混在一起其實我們國內的醫學系啊醫學系學生人家不必"},{"start":196.806,"end":223.938,"text":"人家實習就是實習訓習只是在旁邊看欸實習才是動手做啊結果這個也是為波波牙醫大開方便之門然後另外最扯的是OSCE啦臨床技能測驗在這一個部分我們本土的牙醫系醫學系都必須要考只有波波不用考天啊"},{"start":225.509,"end":234.714,"text":"那另外你們還開了有幾道啦你們有說有啦116年以後以後要全面實施這個Qualified的考試資格考那也就是說117年之前"},{"start":240.701,"end":258.394,"text":"總共推估會有1600位1600位波波牙醫是沒有經過我們台灣國內的這個資格考天啊 這對我們國內的學子們公平嗎對我們全體國人他們的健康"},{"start":259.557,"end":278.834,"text":"有保障嗎 你看國外人家美國 加拿大 英國 日本 你看他們如何嚴格我想你非常清楚嘛 邱部長你非常清楚啊 美國他們還要通過他們有特定的機關 ESMFD 證書他們除了住院醫師培訓 醫師執照考試以外還這麼嚴格喔所以在國外的評定 學習認證的這個"},{"start":286.1,"end":311.003,"text":"難度美國加拿大英國都列為五星企業五星企業加拿大他們要通過MCCOE英國他們也有很多這一方面的測驗臨床實習的要求那日本更不用想我們太知道日本人他們的規模他們的要求更嚴那更直接的啦"},{"start":312.148,"end":340.913,"text":"我講更直接的我們鄰國 韓國跟新加坡人家他們直接就認定波蘭 西班牙 這不行他直接名列天啊 我們台灣不是我們台灣為他們大開方便之門所以我請問你啦現在我們已經退回了這一個部分你們另外幫他開了一條路說啊 這個叫做偏鄉醫療計畫要讓波波來加入 可以漂白"},{"start":341.693,"end":370.718,"text":"好啊 現在這個民意大反彈 退回你們再重修我請問 現在修了以後是不是這個臨床 欸不是臨床喔 你氣到說不下去這個偏鄉的計畫 是不是要修正 要取消 你的看法好 謝謝委員的關心第一個 我就做回應第一個 偏鄉這個計畫 絕對沒有一定要本土ECCPA"},{"start":372.166,"end":397.441,"text":"才能到片鄉 而且是他這個計畫理念上是要補足還是要開方便之門就對了你就是還是要開方便之門沒有沒有沒有 完全一定要台灣的牙醫學系畢業所以波波是沒有機會的好 過難得 你說的喔就是這樣做的就這樣做的喔而且都已經在行政院那個都已經處理了 好 這是取消波波"},{"start":397.961,"end":402.764,"text":"因為那個偏鄉那個計畫沒有破破的任何機會都是本土醫學就是國內台灣牙醫系畢業的才有資格當然要考過醫師執照第二個就是說還是跟委員報告一下這個問題其實是長久以來的問題我們現在是怎麼樣去把它好好的解決但是至少有一個鎖住點就是每年不會超過50名"},{"start":425.035,"end":443.735,"text":"我跟你講喔 50名都太多 我們照說欸 你知道嗎台大牙醫學系跟成大牙醫學系就是包括全世界各國啦對 成大 台大 加起來49名也不到你說的50名啊等於我們啊 外包了一個醫學院在"},{"start":445.129,"end":456.554,"text":"在波蘭 在西班牙一樣可以這樣子做嗎我認為這個名額 我有提案當然這個提案我拖了一年成門大家不支持我認為不該要根據我們國內牙醫學系一年畢業的學生的一成"},{"start":461.817,"end":470.903,"text":"我們一年畢業才入局才350位那一層35位我認為以一層為限啦因為時間有限我另外請教你兩個問題就是說在5月30號 上個禮拜那麼醫用快篩庫診食藥署盤點也有說剩15000劑但是我們全國光是基層診所就12200家啦"},{"start":484.972,"end":492.736,"text":"所以請問啊 就一家只有一劑嗎然後其他的大型醫院 那怎麼辦呢那診所一家一劑 這夠嗎你的看法"},{"start":495.285,"end":518.512,"text":"包委員我想一萬多所診所其實也不是每一家都是看感冒的啦當然有復健診所各種診所包括起來是一萬多家那其實有在看的的確像基層醫療協會林立南理事長有表達說要注意到醫用快篩的一個量能那這個部分不管是家用或者是醫用"},{"start":519.452,"end":534.451,"text":"我們因為過去如果不用那麼多的時候你也很難要廠商去做那麼多啦我們現在一個禮拜才四萬五千只四萬五千支而已啊跟六月 保證 跟委員保證六月中的時候六月中我們家用 醫用都會超過都會超過需求"},{"start":538.395,"end":545.801,"text":"主席抱歉我一分鐘問這句很重要的一件事情我們這次4100億的特別預算裡面有1670億是社會支持這裡面社會支持的這個部分有170億是剝交衛福部來針對弱勢以及獨居老人他們做照顧那我盤算了這個總金額以後我認為170億還會有剩所以我希望把這一"},{"start":566.438,"end":590.044,"text":"這個部份加入就是加入我們對於殘障朋友 身障朋友他們的自立生活這個部份做幫忙為什麼 因為自立生活讓身障朋友們他們可以去就學 就業可以去參與藝文活動 甚至去參與娛樂活動這些都是需要這個部份的幫忙"},{"start":592.025,"end":596.031,"text":"這可不可以把這一百七十億剩餘的部分我們來演繹成長朋友們讓他們去自立生活就醫就學好不好好 謝謝委員的資訊謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564e76f22cd16150128bbacbcf4f939c22c9b36adcf2fc01751970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:01:51 - 12:11:35","影片長度":"00:09:44","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:01:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:11:35+08:00","duration":584,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.00971875,"end":3.8278437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.941593750000001,"end":5.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.658468750000001,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.02971875,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.602843750000002,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.716593750000001,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.931593750000001,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.606593750000002,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.62346875,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.31909375,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.85909375,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.22596875,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.70221875,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.38096875,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.774718750000005,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.875968750000006,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.10034375000001,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.78346875,"end":78.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.51659375,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.69096875,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.57159375,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.36284375000002,"end":177.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.13471875000002,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.35784375,"end":179.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.53471875000002,"end":182.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.41596875000002,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.98721875,"end":199.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.21909375,"end":206.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.61471875,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.85096875000002,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.99409375000002,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.47471875000002,"end":211.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.60034375,"end":221.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.23284375,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.74284375000002,"end":275.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.39159375000003,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.61659375,"end":276.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.84846875,"end":280.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.70471875000004,"end":280.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.32471875000005,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.24846875000003,"end":282.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.97409375,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.51409375000003,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.36096875000004,"end":292.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.41159375,"end":292.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.64346875,"end":299.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.45721875000004,"end":296.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.33471875000004,"end":297.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.71409375,"end":302.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.29596875000004,"end":365.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.24596875000003,"end":325.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.60659375,"end":339.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.37846875,"end":341.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.56409375000004,"end":341.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.63159375000004,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.88096875,"end":399.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.64346875,"end":373.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.49409375000005,"end":385.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":415.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.22346875000005,"end":424.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.34471875,"end":431.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.93846875,"end":432.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.13221875000005,"end":445.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.19534375,"end":433.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.60846875000004,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.23971875,"end":449.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.74596875000003,"end":449.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.44596875,"end":452.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.79971875,"end":454.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.92596875000004,"end":456.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.92159375000006,"end":508.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.01471875000004,"end":510.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.34346875000006,"end":527.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.18471875,"end":532.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.55534375,"end":537.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.8034687500001,"end":543.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.1315937500001,"end":545.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.75159375,"end":559.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.4497187500001,"end":561.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.35659375,"end":566.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.8797187499999,"end":563.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.1028437500001,"end":581.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.46721875,"end":584.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.5178437500001,"end":583.9734687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.218,"end":5.202,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請這個沈記長沈記長 陳沈記長好 那我們先請那個衛福部好了好 請 全部人請"},{"start":18.581,"end":45.424,"text":"那個委員好部長好 辛苦了我知道你也相當關心我們金門的醫療可是我們金門醫療有三大問題想跟你在這邊探究一下第一個就是醫事人員不足還有第二個就是癌症治療中心我們一直希望可以做這個癌症的治療中心也反映很多次第三個就是住宿型長照機構的問題那各個署如果聽到 那自己上來協助一下第一個醫事人員不足的部分您看一下這個表格"},{"start":47.025,"end":55.669,"text":"平均每萬人的職業醫師數112年的時候我們就比金馬鵬離島我們的每萬人是6.1個醫生鵬悟跟我們人口差不多他們是11.42快要我們的兩倍牙醫師也快我們的兩倍藥師我們1.18他們3.06我們說護理師15.47他們30.44幾乎都是他們的一半護士也是那尤其最近一陣子以來前一陣子有一段的離職潮在金門"},{"start":75.157,"end":102.638,"text":"金門醫院金門醫院以前很少遇到說什麼病床就是很缺但是最近我們接到相當多的民眾反映就是沒有病床沒有病床並不是沒有床而是開不了床因為沒有足夠的護理師包括還有一些專業的比如說麻醉的這個還有民眾跟我反映就麻醉的這個麻糊也沒有造成想要生產都沒辦法晚上沒辦法只要等白天那這樣生小孩是沒有辦法等所以真的是這樣子"},{"start":103.098,"end":118.763,"text":"這是實際發生的情形所以這個醫事人員不足的部分呢我想我們在之前我在衛環委員會的時候那時候還是陳時中那個部長當部長的時候那時候我就有跟他提過他提過這個醫事人員不足的時候我們衛福部是有一個健康台灣深耕計畫嗎有一個這個"},{"start":121.024,"end":150.094,"text":"深耕計畫那四大範疇裡頭其中有的是優化醫療工作條件那就是說對金門這個我想請求您對金門醫事人員及護理人員每月加發一萬元津貼還有外來對金門服務的護理師提供交通和住宿補助這個部分你們這個金門醫院事實上也提出來了也有選這個衛福這個系統在開會的時候提出來那現在您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":151.194,"end":172.568,"text":"謝謝委員對金門醫療的支持跟關心那對金門醫療的資源或人力的一個津貼的補助我相信是衛福部非常重要的一個考慮點所以以現在目前來講我們金門在籍的公會醫師其實我們培育的"},{"start":175.47,"end":191.756,"text":"回不去 公會醫師培育蠻多的 沒錯護理人員當然我們也努力在鼓勵回不去的原因是因為我們的職缺不足所以相對的 前一陣子已經去年增加一些職缺 但是還是不夠你看我們萬能人口的職業醫師數還是遠遠低於澎湖"},{"start":196.818,"end":209.646,"text":"就是說他們回不去是因為沒有這個缺不是說我們醫生夠這是兩件事可能是不是說要用那個他生活在金門的你是要用生活在金門的人來講金門福利不錯嘛可能"},{"start":213.035,"end":240.412,"text":"有些長期住台灣 他還是使用台灣的資源但是長期住台灣的金門鄉親也是來來回回的現在因為這個房屋稅的關係 很多人事實上把戶籍都遷回去了最近就遷了幾千個人走啦沒有房屋稅嘛 要自住嘛所以很多人遷走 所以事實上事實上我們的人員還是不夠你剛剛說回不去 就是因為沒有缺嘛"},{"start":241.312,"end":267.625,"text":"衛福部的醫院 金門醫院它的缺不足嘛並不是說我們醫生夠 而是缺不足讓公費培養的醫生回不去反正不管是醫師也好 護士 護士也是不足嘛這個問題 護理師也是不夠這個問題當然待遇啦 離島也比較遠可能離鄉背井不容易我知道剛剛有一個你們的這個市長 副市長有在講就是說 好像說待遇還可以對不對但是 其中你看看你們那個我們金門當地的這個金門醫院的"},{"start":268.365,"end":278.771,"text":"人員組成的就是醫師啊護理師醫事人員的這些組成的待遇裡頭其中有一個是金門縣政府出的錢耶有沒有看到是不是那個旁邊的幕僚"},{"start":282.387,"end":301.332,"text":"報告委員我們這個金門就像剛剛部長講的在籍的人口的確是有14萬但是其實實際住在金門本島的到深一點聽不懂實際住在金門本島的是不到涉及14萬的一半這樣子差不多一半對我們目前那個金門醫院是光是自己聘的醫師就有59位"},{"start":302.312,"end":324.459,"text":"我知道我都知道醫師人數我的意思就是說我的意思就是說現在的確面臨的跟以前不一樣的就是說最近一陣子以來這個床都開不出來民眾反應很多那就是護理人員留不住護理師留不住留不住的原因床開不起來就因為醫護比嘛1比15那開不起來嘛開不起來開不起來結果就造成民眾的這個不方便跟困擾嘛"},{"start":325.399,"end":354.562,"text":"那造成大家還要有的還要往台灣就醫事實上非常的不便利所以這個部分請你們回去看怎麼做像照說你看說當帶一根差不多的時候還是因為金門縣政府貼錢金門衛生局貼錢進去留任獎金給他們金門縣地方政府出錢所以這個部分你們回去想看怎麼做應該這個東西應該中央來做回去那個還有癌症治療中心也一樣現在只有化療嘛很多患者都要來回這中央要機票住宿陪病很多開銷事實上很多"},{"start":355.282,"end":383.808,"text":"我們政府也要做一些補貼嘛 對不對那這樣子事實上這個已經我們資訊很多次金門縣政府也反映很多次啊所以設置金門的放射治療中心還有這個還沒有這個事實上反映很多你們這個也去研究一下具體告訴我們說是不是可行怎麼做你整個數字統計一下好多人過來中間政府也是要花錢啊那這還沒有放射治療前研議是不是給他一些補助方案是不是再提高還是怎麼樣你們算一下做一個報告給我"},{"start":384.788,"end":397.242,"text":"好的好的然後還有長照的這個部分住宿室長照您看一下這個表金門的住宿室長照是零比起澎湖6家8家8家我們是零那這個你看全國這個比例的這個表格裡頭你看金門縣的這個"},{"start":399.885,"end":417.45,"text":"長照 住宿市長照機構吼是涵蓋率吼是不到五成吼全國幾乎快最低了吼那這個部分也我是建議說吼我們是不是用活化現有的空間吼趕快的來提供那這個部分請你也具體提出一個具體的措施吼發委我們現在其實吼整體社區的"},{"start":418.11,"end":445.883,"text":"整體照顧體系已經佈建58次兩個A 35個B 21個C我知道我知道我的意思是說我是在跟澎湖比因為澎湖跟我們的人口各方面相當又是離島那這個部分就我剛提的這三點醫事人員對 醫事人員癌症中心就是這個放療的這個癌症中心還有這個長照的住宿場的這個部分是不是你們回去把這個相關的這個整理一下然後大概一個月內可以給我吧"},{"start":446.283,"end":450.987,"text":"好的好的 一個月給我這三項的報告那我們要請一下審計部審計長 謝謝審計長 這個有吹哨者向我舉發說有協會領補助款 但是在偷渡是在罵在野黨在高中辦228活動 但是是在罵在野黨 領的還是文化部的補助"},{"start":470.265,"end":474.648,"text":"媒體也有相關的報導而且除了這個以外財務上還不尋常經費上比如說媒體有做相關報導有人調查桌長時薪高達一千元海報設計四萬攝影師六萬這樣的這些都是來自文化部來自納稅人的錢就是說有一些協會"},{"start":493.803,"end":510.602,"text":"文化部給一些協會做相關的補助但它補助的這個核銷過程中有一些費用相當的不合理我們有提到相關的這個表格我提供給您看就參考其中有兩個我看過這個有一個您看一下在這個表格裡頭有一個"},{"start":511.443,"end":525.695,"text":"台中文化行動協會 之前媒體還報導 他們出錢 出高鐵票錢這是政府的補助活動 讓民眾上台北來清涼 就是在立法院前面抗議他們來出錢 那補助的錢來自文化部媒體有報導 我也有相關的截圖還有這個 剛剛說的熊中是哪一個協會"},{"start":535.723,"end":554.578,"text":"高雄市228關懷協會歷來抵抗外來入侵故事的這個在這個過程中都在批評如果你講的是一個很正常的如果你要都要批評國民黨你讓民進黨去補助你拿文化部的錢就要很公平的來做事情而且主要是經費的核銷也有問題所以我請你們依法進行專案查核這兩個多久可以給我報告"},{"start":562.783,"end":575.917,"text":"我有具體舉報大概6月底會給6月底齁就是這兩個案子我剛有具體說出來這兩個案子這樣的協會還有人家說他那個哪裡用的不對的地方有人具體舉有來舉發了啦齁所以請你6月底這樣給我們報 專案報告好嗎好好 謝謝謝謝陳委員"}]}},{"id":"162263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162263","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5649a3eec07f78177a9bbacbcf4f939c22ce7f061fc5ac7c7dcea8a73a6fda787c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:16:18 - 10:25:11","影片長度":"00:08:53","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:16:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:25:11+08:00","duration":533,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.84471875,"end":5.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.59534375,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.329093750000002,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.015968750000003,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.22221875,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.43721875,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.46221875,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.05659375,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.11971875,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.199718750000002,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.309093750000002,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.228468750000005,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.25346875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.31659375,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.65346875,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.27346875,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.80909375,"end":45.306593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.79596875,"end":46.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.43721875,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.91284375000001,"end":100.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.84221875,"end":101.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.68159375,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.27596875,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.76096875,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.51909375000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.97471875000001,"end":120.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.16409375,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.81784375000001,"end":127.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.21346875,"end":128.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.23034375,"end":134.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.58471875,"end":129.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.21659375000002,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.14034375,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.62096875,"end":152.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.32784375,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.03909375,"end":191.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.98409375,"end":192.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.97971875000002,"end":194.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.14846875,"end":194.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.92034375,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.47909375,"end":210.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.64784375000002,"end":218.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.86596875,"end":219.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.18659375000001,"end":229.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.90221875,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.12159375000002,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.13284375,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.40659375,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.44034375,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.45721875,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.67971875,"end":251.85659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.94096875000002,"end":259.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.34471875,"end":263.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.71971875,"end":269.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.53721875,"end":273.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.06846875,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.25784375,"end":277.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.20284375,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.69971875000005,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.96971875,"end":284.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.65159375,"end":296.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.72284375000004,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.75659375000004,"end":298.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.27971875000003,"end":298.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.53596875,"end":326.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.23596875000004,"end":313.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.52846875,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.96721875000003,"end":329.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.35909375,"end":334.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.33346875,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.54346875000005,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.91409375,"end":393.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.85971875,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.02409375,"end":395.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.53034375000004,"end":395.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.54721875,"end":395.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.93534375,"end":421.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.39971875000003,"end":422.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.04096875000005,"end":422.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.22659375,"end":422.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.26034375,"end":422.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.27721875000003,"end":422.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.63159375000004,"end":429.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.41534375000003,"end":432.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.63471875000005,"end":431.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.33471875000004,"end":436.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.13159375000004,"end":439.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.08909375,"end":458.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.99596875000003,"end":440.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.02971875000003,"end":440.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.65284375000005,"end":448.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.91284375000004,"end":477.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.32596875,"end":461.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.39346875,"end":461.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.03659375,"end":493.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":492.42659375000005,"end":492.74721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.67534375,"end":498.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.46784375000004,"end":505.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.47096875000005,"end":515.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.0772187499999,"end":514.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.0347187500001,"end":529.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.0959687500001,"end":531.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.81284375,"end":532.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.82971875,"end":531.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.98159375,"end":533.7534687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.975,"end":20.29,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是來邀請衛福部邱部長來邱部長去還有食藥署食藥署王副署長王副署長委員好部長你好"},{"start":22.217,"end":44.975,"text":"還有食藥署我想今天早上報紙有頭版餐飲人員盡早前在碰食而且整個食安新制從六萬可以滑到兩億小吃攤商怨說政策憑空想像"},{"start":46.597,"end":62.151,"text":"那我想我幾個問題要請教第一個我想國人是重視食安的問題民眾在小吃攤早餐消費時常發現店家早前食早前後晚沒有洗手就直接接觸食物"},{"start":63.272,"end":79.529,"text":"那衛福部食藥署昨天發布修正食品良好衛生規範的準則特別針對夜市小吃攤還有摸前後再摸食物等這些行為做一些處罰"},{"start":81.07,"end":99.641,"text":"由於未洗手繼續處理食物容易造成汙染那違法者可處新台幣六萬元到兩億以下的罰款那我要請問高額罰金引起民眾熱議那我請問衛福部新規範有沒有宣導期"},{"start":103.929,"end":124.166,"text":"好 謝謝委員的隨行 我想我們希望跟業者一起來維護我們人們的食安有沒有宣討期我們以輔導先行一定以輔導先行 請大家安心法令檢討時有沒有徵詢過相關這些攤販職業工會他們的看法跟意見"},{"start":129.572,"end":151.254,"text":"這個部分請王副市長報告委員這個都有經過相關預告程序那你有沒有跟他們溝通過這個我們都有收到意見以後都有做相關的收納意見而已沒有溝通就對了因為很多攤商攤販他是只有一個人啦你像夜市裡面有很多就是一個人在作業那其實"},{"start":152.515,"end":179.971,"text":"我認為事前的溝通很重要不是說我們不是反對問題就是說今天這是現實的問題你很多夜市的攤商甚至於有很多都是一人在處理一人也要找錢那你當然做一些告示讓他知道說要提醒找錢的時候要洗手甚至要把手擦乾淨再做食物等等"},{"start":180.791,"end":201.678,"text":"我是不反對問題是你一定要有一個緩衝期而且要經過溝通協調才來實施我認為這才是正道部長你認不認同我認同我認為不是我們講實施就做因為你要有點緩衝而且讓這些業者知道"},{"start":202.898,"end":228.688,"text":"而且告訴他們說這是食安問題老百姓大家都重視我們不是反對只不過是你一定要有一個宣導緩衝然後提醒大家就這個東西要注意部長因為媒體報導新冠疫情升溫快篩抗病毒藥物等等這些防疫的物資出現供貨不及的這些問題"},{"start":230.168,"end":248.277,"text":"那疾管署副署長羅益君日前也表示說目前的疫苗與藥物供應這個是穩定的但藥事公會理事長黃清順呼籲政府應穩定快篩與藥品的供應那我請問會務部"},{"start":250.379,"end":268.519,"text":"這個端午連假後防疫物資抗病毒這些藥劑是否都已經陸續補足順利的撲霍到基層喔有沒有是的我們的庫存量是絕對沒有問題庫存量那你有沒有撲到基層嘛因為很多人要是到這些第一線去買買不到"},{"start":270.852,"end":286.518,"text":"這個才是問題啊不是你們庫存量的問題啊委員所提到的是快篩啦加用快篩的問題對啊疫苗 跟委員報告疫苗跟那個藥物是沒有問題譬如說我們的藥物它可能還有45萬人次"},{"start":288.979,"end":295.845,"text":"一波疫情過去大概用了18萬人次所以這個部藥物是沒有問題疫苗還有300萬劑還一直希望大家能夠趕快來打那自己說快篩這個部因為過去"},{"start":305.893,"end":329.34,"text":"說實在廠商都很多我知道啊 到最後囤積很多到最後變廢掉所以我們現在就要廠商一直趕快生產然後我們一直努力做鋪路這個幾乎每一天都在做所以我也很放心大概在六月中我們就會達到所需求量的兩倍對啦 因為你要到最基層有的人他有"},{"start":330.424,"end":353.383,"text":"疑惑到底他有沒有感染到我們建議就到基層診所因為現在的病毒實在是太多種了我們希望能夠到診所去做判斷這個應該是比較安全部長過去因為新冠疫苗接種讓疫苗救濟申請案件暴增連帶也影響到其他疫苗救濟的案件審議"},{"start":354.764,"end":373.059,"text":"的進度比如說流感疫苗卡介苗的疫苗等近年來多次在立法院引起立委關心疫苗救濟案件的審議速度那觀察受害救濟申請案件統計以111年為例一共有4813件112年降到820"},{"start":379.946,"end":392.983,"text":"820件113年降到594案件那我請問衛福部的衛福部預防接種受害救濟審議小組案件塞車的狀況是有沒有改善"},{"start":394.345,"end":421.561,"text":"那個請莊書長回來報告委員那其實我們現在這個每天就是每個月就是會召開兩次的VICP的委員會那每一次大概就是有大概有三百件一直都在改所以理論上應該是大概六七月左右這個新冠的期間所有的這個案件幾乎都可以都審查啦那目前還在加速當中因為齁是"},{"start":422.962,"end":440.25,"text":"過去12年平均每案件審查的時間它高達243.6天喔8個月喔我們現在已經減少了那我請問現在平均專案每案審查的時間有多少這個我不清楚我可以再回應你這個很重要啊"},{"start":442.131,"end":457.86,"text":"因為醫師認為說新冠疫情使嚴格的感染管制措施所留下的免疫負債造成我們對各種傳染疾病的免疫力都下降過去夏天"},{"start":458.993,"end":476.306,"text":"流感病病例比較少但有醫師認為現在的病毒流行已經沒有按時序來走使流感不再是只有秋冬的限定而出現這個流感全年化的這種現象是不是這樣子"},{"start":476.986,"end":496.743,"text":"台灣因為是說如果是屬於溫帶它比較才會有這個就是秋冬季的一個流行就是有很明顯的流行啦但是我們是屬於熱帶亞熱帶地區所以本來一年到頭就會有流感的流行只是說比較不明顯那我請問對於流感全年化的這種現象請問衛福部"},{"start":498.624,"end":514.21,"text":"流感疫苗接種時程是不是會提早到九月啊不一定一定要會在十月以後才開打應該是說我們其實這個是不是九月開打其實都有都有討論過啦你如果太早打那事實上剛剛您說的全年都流行對啊就會比較"},{"start":516.191,"end":531.045,"text":"也會比較容易就是就是你的保護力會趕快會比較快消掉所以我們現在還是希望說還是大概十月開始打至少到隔年的這個六七月之前都還有一定的保護力好啦我希望你們考慮考慮啦謝謝好謝謝林委員的資訊"}]}},{"id":"162280","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162280","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564c2fa3d8bc6824dc1bbacbcf4f939c22c46063d171e8badfa63521e5656016d285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:52:51 - 11:02:44","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:52:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:02:44+08:00","duration":593,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.59534375,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.69846875,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.74909375,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.44846875,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.76034375,"end":38.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.096593750000004,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.893468750000004,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.74909375,"end":51.854093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.140968750000006,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.91721875,"end":56.595968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.69284375,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.375968750000006,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.27784375,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.38721875,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.21284375,"end":80.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.42784375000001,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.56534375000001,"end":99.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.06221875,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.31909375000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.50346875000001,"end":170.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.66846875000002,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.73596875,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.97221875,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.74846875,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.30409375000002,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.70034375,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.33909375000002,"end":198.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.46409375000002,"end":202.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.02034375000002,"end":203.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.04971875,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.68659375000001,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.65221875,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.49971875,"end":215.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.02659375000002,"end":263.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.54659375,"end":286.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.41534375000003,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.91034375000004,"end":295.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.47909375,"end":293.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.75721875,"end":296.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.71034375,"end":299.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.52034375,"end":297.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.94221875,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.99284375,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.02659375,"end":307.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.39659375,"end":307.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.81409375000004,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.94471875,"end":312.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.94846875,"end":313.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.29409375,"end":315.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.36159375,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.57221875000005,"end":326.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.00659375000004,"end":318.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.44534375,"end":318.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.01471875000004,"end":321.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.23346875000004,"end":327.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.27096875,"end":328.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.46909375,"end":331.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.42221875,"end":333.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.64159375,"end":331.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.43471875,"end":344.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.63221875000005,"end":341.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.16284375000004,"end":346.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.60159375,"end":345.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.00221875,"end":348.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.21721875000003,"end":348.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.38159375000004,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.80284375,"end":357.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.99659375000005,"end":359.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.28721875,"end":364.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.85221875,"end":365.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.88534375,"end":379.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.25846875,"end":404.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.45346875,"end":401.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.57971875000004,"end":406.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.51596875,"end":419.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.76284375,"end":421.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.55159375000005,"end":425.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.39909375,"end":425.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.27659375,"end":451.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.03659375,"end":456.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.08221875000004,"end":458.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.63034375,"end":460.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.89159375,"end":512.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.03534375,"end":512.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.28409375,"end":513.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.3178437500001,"end":514.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.12784375,"end":516.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.1615937500001,"end":514.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.53284375,"end":516.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.08534375,"end":516.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.2878437500001,"end":516.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.54096875,"end":516.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.64221875,"end":532.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.84784375,"end":529.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.1840937500001,"end":556.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.6359687500001,"end":564.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.74846875,"end":577.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.7353437500001,"end":569.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.42596875,"end":582.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.32409375,"end":582.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":583.5178437500001,"end":585.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.00721875,"end":585.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.86346875,"end":587.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.63534375,"end":592.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.49596875,"end":589.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.03159375,"end":592.8159687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.39,"text":"謝謝部長你今天親自來我蠻驚訝的不過我覺得非常感謝你代表對我們財務會這個議題的重視當然疫情再起國人也都非常關心到底我們準備的狀況到底如何但是部長我要先請問你一個問題周一部長跟醫療團體開會討論整個防疫的準備狀況"},{"start":28.599,"end":38.163,"text":"會後醫界有一個反應啊疫苗費被砍了我想請問醫界所謂的疫苗費用被砍到底是被誰砍掉?部長過去我們疫情期間疫苗接種的費用是有一個儲值費100塊對不對還有一個獎勵的費用100塊對不對那疫情過後衛福部其實就沒有編列"},{"start":58.151,"end":65.959,"text":"獎勵費的一百塊 我有沒有講錯對 你自己沒有編嘛所以外界在這一段時間一直有在講說國民黨砍了"},{"start":69.42,"end":87.688,"text":"一百塊的這個疫苗費的預算事實上是沒有是根本沒有編因為我們疫情過後已經沒有所謂的獎勵費因為疫情中心那個已經解散特別但是不是國民黨砍的啦你們這個獎勵費是疫情過後本來就沒有編列我想我的邏輯我沒有講錯你應該懂好來 那"},{"start":90.649,"end":106.35,"text":"意見還是一直在提我想疫苗儲備費的增加你非常清楚我們看一下後面下一張圖部長我在總質詢的時候我就提到我們目前近年我們包括癌症篩檢的費用的調整"},{"start":108.618,"end":112.04,"text":"成人的健檢從520調到880口腸癌的篩檢從130調到250大腸癌的篩檢從200調漲到400塊都成長69% 92%大腸癌的篩檢更成長了一倍"},{"start":125.447,"end":149.979,"text":"所以呢為什麼在這一段時間我們在爭取疫苗的費用的時候醫界就反而就一直搖頭探頭疫情過後呢這個包括疫苗處置費呢是不增反減因為我們沒有了那一百塊醫界就最後自嘲說我們的疫苗接種不如一坨大便我說不如一坨大便是大腸癌的篩檢人家還有從兩百塊增加到四百塊"},{"start":153.34,"end":160.563,"text":"我想這個聲音你應該跟我在很多場合都有聽到醫界聲音對不對部長我這樣講沒錯了醫界搖頭說他們的處置費用不如一坨大便就是大腸癌篩檢所有的篩檢都成長了50%以上我們兩個共同參加很多次我們再看下一張表格"},{"start":176.728,"end":201.824,"text":"日本的疫苗處置費從一千一到一六五零一千六百五十塊韓國的處置費是五百到一千塊我們的疫苗處置費多少呢只有一百塊顯然的為什麼人家會編從一千一到一六五零五百到一千塊因為裡面有行政管理疫苗的保存需要冰箱衛教的宣導這些成本部長你同不同意他都不止一百塊你同不同意"},{"start":204.645,"end":207.787,"text":"我們機關署其實也是非常的努力也提出方案來提升部長你是真正醫界出身所以我覺得第一線的醫事人員心灰意冷"},{"start":224.898,"end":228,"text":"那我們現在為不只能苦要求說不要太世俗啦我們一起做功德心中難道默念的賴總統的這個健康台灣那持續的要一切做功德我覺得這不合理啦這不合理"},{"start":240.066,"end":263.505,"text":"所以部長 我要請問你 就是我們到底每一季 目前你的想法到底有沒有要調因為總諮詢的時候你也同意 你也認為應該要調在兒科醫學會的時候 很多場合 我們每次在開會的時候每一區 中區 北區 南區 東區 每次去開會的時候 醫界都說你們都說要調到底每一季 你們有沒有準備要調多少錢那什麼時候要準備調整 會不會編列在明年的預算裡面"},{"start":264.688,"end":291.955,"text":"報告委員我想我還是要說明因為在推行健康台灣的過程當中其實只要需要什麼經費對人民健康有幫助的我覺得政府都一直在努力啦那這一個部分的疫苗處置費我們的機關室也提出了相對的方案因為他要從疫苗基金沒關係部長你直接回應我到底什麼時候要調會不會編入明年的預算當中你目前的想法應該多少你該做多少的認証"},{"start":294.857,"end":315.218,"text":"那我請集團署組長回答一下目前五月上旬有跟行政院來爭取預算當中目前還在程序爭取多少錢應該說這個部分我也不方便回答那你告訴我Range好不好範圍大概多少"},{"start":316.618,"end":330.178,"text":"你覺得多少跟多少你爭取的預算是多少到多少沒關係你告訴我你爭取的預算一季應該是多少到多少才合理如果砍掉就行我們一定盡量爭取啦一定盡量爭取你跟他說就對了因為這以上的事情要看"},{"start":333.362,"end":351.792,"text":"我想當時在我擔任立委的時候也是跟委員一樣在爭取對嘛我們兩個都一樣都關心醫界都關心病人因為我們覺得基層真的是很辛苦是 部長所以你的意思說你已經爭取了你希望別用明年的預算一個小孩在打針有時候真的很難打"},{"start":352.712,"end":376.756,"text":"所以好沒關係部長因為我時間有限我後面還有其他快篩完全了解完全了解也會完全來好你有送上去的就對了你有送上去的就對了有爭取的就對了有是不是有齁有所以不能講不敢講好反正最後你有爭取那我就當作院長部長有爭取砍掉或沒給就是卓院長不肯給好那我聽懂了好來那接下來五月初我們說要"},{"start":380.337,"end":406.068,"text":"我希望我們不要玩兩手策略一邊因為健保署上次又說保持開放的心情然後後面又叫醫院要做功德然後又叫醫界寫什麼協議合作跟健保署提案我覺得不要玩兩手策略部長你這樣講我就很清楚你們有上簽了到行政院去了給不給就是行政院給不給我這樣理解沒有錯吧我們在疫苗基金裡面有去"},{"start":407.348,"end":423.986,"text":"這個部分就是有關疫苗接種儲施費的部分的確在五月五月上旬有向行政院來爭取擴大公務預算的一個波及到疫苗基金裡面那如果要實施的話也會先實施到這個也會在明年明年的部分希望爭取到明年編列預算進去"},{"start":425.438,"end":448.652,"text":"部長署長因為從過去他目前是150點希望增加到300點那我們疫情期間事實上有規劃到300點我們這300塊300塊事實上就早就已經做過成本的評估不然你疫情期間不會亂給到300塊所以這是當時你們預估過在疫情期間衛福部所有當時評估規劃你當時就是規劃300塊"},{"start":452.874,"end":469.14,"text":"用第一個有特別預算第二個不管特別預算你沒有規劃要四百五百沒有說掛號費啦所以當時沒有說掛號費但是我的意思是說你當時規劃三百塊你一定有算出它的成本是三百塊是符合成本我要提醒你三百塊那個數字當時是這樣訂出來的從一百五十點到三百塊是有理由的你不會亂編嘛"},{"start":474.062,"end":491.57,"text":"你疫情其實就是給300塊嘛我提醒你所以快篩的這是第一件事情那第二件事情就是部長我們現在的整個快篩的進度到底是怎麼樣到底夠不夠我們當時的反應現在的從112年快篩當時改而健保給付從150點到現在300點嘛"},{"start":502.034,"end":511.732,"text":"那現在300塊才能滿足服務成本大家都知道所以快篩幾步的調整能不能在這個月之內處理完成"},{"start":513.322,"end":532.152,"text":"有沒有打算給 有沒有打算實施健保署跟委員報告那這個快篩給付現在是健保給付那健保它有一定的程序包含要過專家之意會還要過公理會我叫你不要跟我講那麼多主席已經站起來了你不要告訴我快篩給付的調整我們還是要依照健保的一個程序以上"},{"start":532.312,"end":555.129,"text":"我知道程序但是現在六七月已經是高峰了你現在快篩幾副你沒有大家那個量診所的配合意願度都不高因為你只有給150點的話他就不敷成本使用他就不愛用我就不要用快篩我就不要用醫藥快篩我就不幫你篩你進來有可能你就是得到COVID嘛我就不給你篩因為我做一個賠一個嘛"},{"start":556.69,"end":564.231,"text":"因為你當時的疫情成本上次疫情成本是三百塊嘛他現在一切整數他就不愛用啊我做一個賠一個啊部長我有沒有講錯你聽懂我在講什麼嗎所以你們不能不食肉迷不食人間煙火你們食藥署竟然告訴人家說我們有撲霍啦什麼體感溫度不同這種話不要說這種話說真的是傷害食藥署部長我是你謝謝"},{"start":583.918,"end":590.164,"text":"我們會努力 你了解我的話完全了解 我們會努力趕快修正吧 這個月趕快想辦法"}]}},{"id":"162275","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162275","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564d490a426e4b35a41bbacbcf4f939c22ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc19d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:33:57 - 10:43:39","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:33:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:43:39+08:00","duration":582,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.11096875,"end":2.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.40596875,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.00471875,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.742218750000003,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.758468750000002,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.31534375,"end":16.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.33221875,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.34909375,"end":16.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.36596875,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.48409375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.922843750000002,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.95659375,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.344718750000002,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.445968750000002,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.61471875,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.07034375,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.70221875,"end":26.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.91284375,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.70596875,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.38471875,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.20721875,"end":33.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.557218750000004,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.869093750000005,"end":38.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.47221875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.87284375,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.868468750000005,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.96096875,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.90159375,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.14596875,"end":52.242218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.10721875,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.33909375,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.34721875,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.962843750000005,"end":59.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.148468750000006,"end":58.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":59.36346875,"end":59.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":60.10596875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.49159375,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.70221875,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.82034375,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.47409375000001,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.25034375,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.49471875,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.53659375000001,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.29596875,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.85284375,"end":88.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.11409375000001,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.05909375,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.60284375,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.24784375,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.86346875000001,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.33971875,"end":104.47034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.95971875000001,"end":105.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.56284375000001,"end":107.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.19971875,"end":110.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.44409375000001,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.84034375,"end":114.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.05534375,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.66284375000001,"end":115.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":116.09721875000001,"end":117.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.49784375,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.03346875000001,"end":121.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.10034375000001,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.79221875,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.09159375,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.47909375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.59721875,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.13284375,"end":132.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":132.66846875000002,"end":140.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.35096875000002,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":141.98346875000001,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.11409375,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.78909375,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.71721875,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":147.28221875,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.09221875,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":148.81784375,"end":156.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.12471875,"end":158.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.09471875,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.93846875,"end":162.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.99284375000002,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.39346875,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.27909375000002,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.97409375,"end":192.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.84471875,"end":194.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.05534375000002,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.49346875,"end":216.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.82409375,"end":225.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.30471875,"end":220.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.75596875000002,"end":220.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.03846875000002,"end":222.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.24471875,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.82971875,"end":236.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.61846875,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.28471875000002,"end":239.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":239.30159375000002,"end":239.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.33534375000002,"end":239.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.35596875000002,"end":253.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":253.78034375000001,"end":265.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.71159375,"end":262.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.42034375000003,"end":264.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.09909375,"end":269.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.35596875000005,"end":270.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.16159375,"end":272.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.88284375,"end":273.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.70971875000004,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.13534375,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.95784375,"end":280.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.10096875,"end":282.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.75471875,"end":283.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.54784375,"end":284.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.56034375,"end":285.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.31096875000003,"end":287.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":287.36159375,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":288.91409375,"end":289.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.53846875,"end":293.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.13284375,"end":293.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":293.95971875000004,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.97659375,"end":295.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":297.46971875,"end":297.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":298.04346875000005,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.26659375,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.45221875000004,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.02596875,"end":302.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.14409375,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.39721875000004,"end":302.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.68409375000005,"end":321.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.93846875,"end":343.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.59784375000004,"end":343.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.58471875000004,"end":358.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.97909375,"end":360.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.73409375,"end":360.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.29096875000005,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.84784375000004,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.98221875,"end":365.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.99909375000004,"end":366.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":366.15096875,"end":366.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.20159375000003,"end":370.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":369.27284375000005,"end":369.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":370.50471875000005,"end":380.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.85909375,"end":371.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.00971875000005,"end":379.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":380.29221875,"end":382.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.42721875,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.34221875000003,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.25346875,"end":387.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.99159375000005,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.76784375,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.15596875,"end":388.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.91534375000003,"end":397.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.23534375,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.11659375000005,"end":397.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.85909375,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.02784375000005,"end":398.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.14596875,"end":398.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.21346875,"end":398.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.53409375,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.77846875,"end":412.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.13534375,"end":412.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.25346875,"end":412.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.37159375000005,"end":412.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.43909375000004,"end":412.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.48971875,"end":412.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.01284375,"end":422.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.61096875000004,"end":420.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.04096875000005,"end":430.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.22096875000005,"end":432.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.84096875,"end":449.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.02846875,"end":448.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.97346875000005,"end":450.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.56784375,"end":455.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.51659375,"end":459.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.90846875000005,"end":461.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.18659375000004,"end":463.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.78971875,"end":466.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.89471875000004,"end":468.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.24034375,"end":469.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.99971875000006,"end":470.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.92784375,"end":472.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.32846875,"end":473.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.33659375,"end":475.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":479.11221875,"end":479.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":479.66909375000006,"end":482.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":482.95971875000004,"end":485.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.40659375,"end":487.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.51596875,"end":489.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":491.51534375000006,"end":494.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":494.82284375,"end":500.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.03721875,"end":500.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.06659375000004,"end":503.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.63159375000004,"end":505.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":506.61846875000003,"end":516.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.85471875,"end":508.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.1484687500001,"end":520.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.74284375,"end":523.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.69596875,"end":524.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.97846875,"end":528.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.6740937500001,"end":530.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.3953437499999,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.5090937500001,"end":532.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.3359687500001,"end":533.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.3272187499999,"end":534.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.93034375,"end":539.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.13659375,"end":540.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.4653437500001,"end":545.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":543.8447187500001,"end":555.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.5734687500001,"end":553.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.58971875,"end":556.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.6697187500001,"end":556.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":556.6865937499999,"end":559.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.8047187500001,"end":562.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":559.99409375,"end":561.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.64346875,"end":567.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":567.80721875,"end":567.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.85784375,"end":567.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":567.99284375,"end":569.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.7522187500001,"end":569.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.49471875,"end":569.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":569.5790937500001,"end":569.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.6128437500001,"end":569.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":569.6297187499999,"end":579.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.79846875,"end":570.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.32534375,"end":573.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.20284375,"end":574.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.2534687500001,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.97471875,"end":576.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":579.95721875,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":580.21034375,"end":581.6953437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.441,"end":13.573,"text":"謝謝主席 以及各位先進有請我們的務務部的邱部長以及我們的審計部的審計長還有主計總署的陳主計長請邱部長 陳審計長 陳主計長"},{"start":24.704,"end":39.624,"text":"我先請教邱部長啦是的是剛才本來不想問這個題目但是有人起個頭我就根據你想請問你啊你剛剛說那個那個凍結都解凍了嘛是是是謝謝請問對於"},{"start":43.484,"end":56.992,"text":"長照有沒有這個山長照的預算有沒有長照的部分有的確有山到有一個有山到嗎有山了五百萬講清楚講清楚旁邊講清楚長照有沒有山來"},{"start":61.294,"end":82.42,"text":"有一個長照社區共生互製計畫這個是針對鼓勵93區原民偏鄉離島長照資源比較不足的長照家庭使用日間照顧那這個被原來是三千萬被三減五百萬這樣子那個育兒津貼有沒有刪育兒津貼育兒津貼沒有育兒津貼沒有刪"},{"start":90.136,"end":110.753,"text":"照顧老的 照顧小的基本上都應該盡量照顧特別要強調的是今天我就拍這個其實你要感謝我你可以跟組計長要錢因為我知道你現在你現在不需要錢我剛剛提你報告你不用錢"},{"start":113.458,"end":129.824,"text":"你都不缺錢我沒有那個我們當然在防疫嘛對啊現在因為疫情起來了啊防疫的方面如果疫情你錢夠不夠啊我聽你著想的啊現階段我們因為準備的都充分所以很悶"},{"start":131.212,"end":158.168,"text":"所以目前是目前都還可以來支應譬如說我們疫苗採購我們會由疫苗基金來支應疫苗採購是疫苗基金不是總預算裡面的喔對不對所以沒有那種什麼三疫苗的事情喔沒有三疫苗的喔當時凍結1000萬那個時候的確有造成一點點困擾啦但是這個已經解決了但是基本上疫苗從疫苗基金出來的"},{"start":159.989,"end":181.409,"text":"那我現在就問你 就是說如果你錢不夠了跟組織總組要什麼科目的錢我們目前來講的盤點是還夠如果有本部裡面 機關署以及我們衛福部來支援不管是疫苗要採購那如果真的有"},{"start":182.577,"end":191.443,"text":"有疫情我們會很密切的來看看國際間還有我們國內的變化我們會早做安排那如果有必要的話我們會請行政院來幫忙主計長啊他們如果要跟你邀請要從什麼科目"},{"start":200.358,"end":224.719,"text":"如果是防疫經費的話這如果疫情起來的時候他可以從他的經費先移緩季節那我們他如果不夠報到行政院來我們也可以從行政院來移緩季節那就是所以各部會都可以做調整那再者也是有災準金第二預備金來做支應那最最可以用第二預備金嗎可以第二預備金也可那你不是說可以要用災害準配金"},{"start":225.319,"end":240.983,"text":"在原則上先用災害準備金因為防疫經費他是放在那個救災法裡面的一個規範就先用災害準備金請教邱部長啊你有沒有準備要用你的第二倍金現在不需要我們部沒有第二倍金"},{"start":242.383,"end":263.342,"text":"我們不是沒有DLA別金,但是我們一直在盤點除非我們預計這個疫情應該到8月,應該這一波是可以足夠來因應但是我們一定要很小心,我們會去看國際間WHO方面的一個訊息我請教你我們還是會超前部署"},{"start":266.138,"end":285.537,"text":"我請教你喔,現在美國的衛生部長小蘿蔔跟內地啊,他不相信疫苗,他規定他突然宣布啊,這個上個月突然宣布對健康兒童跟孕婦啊,不要打這個新冠病毒的疫苗。"},{"start":287.335,"end":298.707,"text":"我們不能這麼看因為那是個人發表的一個意見但是美國的其他專家有意見啦CDC的立場可不可以跟專家講一下"},{"start":303.852,"end":320.791,"text":"那應該說美國有關疫苗的接種的建議通常都是由CDC的一個就是類似像我們台灣一個ACIP的委員會他們做成專家決議之後再建議啦那這次比較怪異的就是由他們的衛生部長跟FDA就直接說出來然後跳過"},{"start":322.459,"end":343.214,"text":"就是美國CDC後來美國CDC他們的發表是說如果說是這個民眾的這個跟醫師共同決定說他們的小孩跟那個健康孕婦跟孕婦是不是還要再施打啦那這個部分在台灣的部分我們還會再徵詢我們台灣的ACIP的委員那還有根據我們我們是不是要強調一下台灣還是要打"},{"start":345.079,"end":364.475,"text":"這個部分就是我們目前的部分依照目前是可以打但是未來這個流感未來這個十月的時候這一季的話我們會還會再尊重這個跟ACIP的委員這邊來尋求一個共識好 我再回到邱部長這裡快篩疫苗藥品都不缺 目前都不缺"},{"start":366.269,"end":382.51,"text":"因為有人說高峰啊 高峰可能到七八月會高峰喔我們在六月中以前會備足到我們疾管署所預計的需求量的快篩的需求量已經預計在高峰是什麼時候2.5倍 六月中"},{"start":384.529,"end":396.483,"text":"7月初高峰開始的時候6月底7月初6月底量大概多少量大概多少大概前一個禮拜算大概20萬左右20萬現在我們目前現在是6萬嘛對不對對對現在是6萬多現在是6萬所以這個通告是不是"},{"start":401.322,"end":414.909,"text":"應該是說我們的抗病毒藥物的部分事實上因為它是大概只有兩成的長者跟慢性病的病人才需要所以它並沒有說需要到那麼大的量所以170萬人如果說整個高峰整個到8月初的時候170萬人那就是最多34萬人要吃藥"},{"start":422.213,"end":448.453,"text":"如果要拆我就不用擺今天那個專案報告了因為是有醫生跟我反應都不夠基層的醫生跟我講不夠所以我才排這個基層的應該是說就有關這一波那我們有沒有要針對這個有關基層的醫師醫療院所還有這個核心藥局的部分我們可以在這個部分來針對給他們的一些獎勵金的部分來做增加好 部長請教你"},{"start":453.209,"end":475.448,"text":"這個民進黨總召柯俊明說啊7月26可能罷免 要在7月26號7月26是有國考的 跟你有關的啊副理事啦 新理事啦 法醫啊 你們要不要講個話印象中你相關人員在他們的憲法給他的權利喔"},{"start":479.87,"end":489.493,"text":"我想這個相關的日期應該相關的單位會做好處理不是不是 這跟你有關係啊因為他如果真的排7號6號就會影響到嗎據我了解那只是易估的啦你沒有跟老闆討論一下跟你的科總要討論一下說你這樣我的人要怎麼"},{"start":506.67,"end":534.525,"text":"我相信這個日期應該是可以達到一個大家都可以安排自己事情的一個時日期這個我覺得你們的考試看起來都不太關心最後一個還是回到回到剛才有提到的啦剛才那個林德偉提到錢是病毒傳染的這個媒介可是"},{"start":535.953,"end":540.253,"text":"你有沒有想過,你自己也知道嗎,我們很多小台灣都是一個人而已啊,那怎麼辦呢?"},{"start":541.936,"end":566.236,"text":"這個我覺得還是需要先宣導我們一定先宣導請大家放心我也是來自鄉下基層我們也了解到這個文化但是食安還是要共同一步一步往前走但是這個一定是先胡搗胡搗先行你對於這個一邊走一邊那個字你馬上開法是有意見的法很高欸六萬起跳欸"},{"start":570.261,"end":578.372,"text":"我們的各種小吃店都是辛苦經營我們完全了解他們的辛苦我們會輔導 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564583f376c294dc9e7bbacbcf4f939c22ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc6f56bf4e46f5f0685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"10:25:19 - 10:33:48","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:25:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:33:48+08:00","duration":509,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.34659375,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.084093750000001,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.68721875,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.771593750000001,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.497218750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.04971875,"end":16.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.72034375,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.51346875,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.80846875,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.16659375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.402843750000002,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.723468750000002,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.65159375,"end":26.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.48221875,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.97971875,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.08909375,"end":36.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.51471875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.657218750000006,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.35721875,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.799718750000004,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.33534375,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.44909375,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.946593750000005,"end":55.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.790343750000005,"end":56.258468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.595968750000004,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.03471875,"end":58.080968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.05971875,"end":59.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.970968750000004,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.190343750000004,"end":61.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.721593750000004,"end":63.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.56096875,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.06284375,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.49721875,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.56034375,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.89346875000001,"end":70.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.15909375000001,"end":72.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.89721875000001,"end":72.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.06596875000001,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.12471875,"end":77.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.63909375,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.17471875000001,"end":81.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.38534375,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.39346875000001,"end":83.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.51159375,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.38471875,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.75596875000001,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.84409375,"end":88.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.86096875000001,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.97471875000001,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.48471875,"end":98.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.39534375000001,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":99.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.77471875,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.04846875000001,"end":105.93846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.25909375,"end":115.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.39659375000001,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.80534375,"end":121.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.83034375000001,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.02846875,"end":125.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":128.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.60159375,"end":138.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.50721875000002,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":141.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.89909375000002,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.48534375,"end":147.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.76721875,"end":150.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.23096875000002,"end":165.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.04721875,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.27909375000002,"end":167.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.15659375,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.43471875,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.27409375000002,"end":172.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.74659375000002,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.87721875,"end":174.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.04596875000001,"end":177.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.26909375000002,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.27721875,"end":187.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.27596875,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.81096875,"end":194.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.82784375,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.71784375000001,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.54034375,"end":198.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.78471875000002,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.70846875,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.81346875000003,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.56409375,"end":210.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.05284375000002,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.65596875,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.33471875,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.15721875000003,"end":219.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.11471875,"end":220.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.66284375,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.73409375000003,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.33221875,"end":233.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.70346875,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.31909375,"end":236.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.51721875,"end":238.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.20034375,"end":246.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.25409375,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.96284375000002,"end":248.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":249.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.94971875000002,"end":252.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.85221875000002,"end":255.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.31159375000004,"end":257.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.67409375,"end":258.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.23096875000005,"end":270.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.16596875,"end":271.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.27971875000003,"end":271.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.53284375000004,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.91659375,"end":272.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.93346875000003,"end":282.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.28221875,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.71659375,"end":283.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.86846875000003,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.95596875,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.66034375000004,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.01284375,"end":307.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.78034375000004,"end":309.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.10909375,"end":311.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.61096875000004,"end":317.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.54659375,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.77846875,"end":321.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.65159375,"end":332.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.90721875,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.23471875,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.47909375,"end":345.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.54659375,"end":345.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.58034375,"end":351.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.64784375000005,"end":345.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.21659375,"end":358.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.92471875,"end":359.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.78471875,"end":364.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.83471875000004,"end":364.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.86846875000003,"end":364.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.93596875000003,"end":364.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.99909375000004,"end":368.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.62721875,"end":371.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.89659375,"end":376.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.02284375000005,"end":376.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.45721875000004,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.63721875000005,"end":396.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.20096875,"end":406.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.73534375,"end":407.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.11909375000005,"end":408.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.72659375,"end":409.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.57034375,"end":412.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.06346875,"end":416.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.99534375,"end":419.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.77534375000005,"end":423.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.76659375,"end":427.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.45784375000005,"end":434.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.96721875000003,"end":437.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.27909375,"end":440.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.62034375,"end":442.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.20221875000004,"end":443.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.50159375000004,"end":446.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.61096875000004,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.76221875000005,"end":453.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.05284375,"end":456.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.54596875000004,"end":459.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.14471875000004,"end":462.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.57034375,"end":464.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.27471875000003,"end":466.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.43471875000006,"end":468.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.72971875,"end":475.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.92284375,"end":476.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.22659375,"end":479.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.25971875000005,"end":480.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.37784375,"end":483.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.68534375,"end":483.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.75284375,"end":483.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.20846875,"end":485.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.03096875000006,"end":488.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.74346875000003,"end":491.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.22409375,"end":494.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.48534375,"end":500.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.42534375,"end":500.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.45909375,"end":500.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.69534375,"end":503.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.74971875000006,"end":508.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.17159375000006,"end":507.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.49159375000005,"end":509.52096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.257,"end":6.178,"text":"主席麻煩請衛福部邱部長來邱部長請委員好部長早今天講的這個是整備那我要問你相關的問題今年度的這個114年度的預算貴部被山被凍的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":29.377,"end":46.389,"text":"如果以機關署的預算 防疫這個部分沒有一定要以機關署為限 我是問你衛福部衛福部3減11億 凍結26億3減11億是3減在哪裡 主要3減在哪裡就是在業務費業務費 業務費裡面的宣傳預算 是 有是不是被刪了60% 是 3減多少錢"},{"start":64.714,"end":87.22,"text":"四千多萬那你這個費用本來是要跟國人溝通當有重大疫情的時候或是有什麼重大突發事件的時候你需要這筆經費然後趕快把你的這個業務上面希望國人配合去做一個宣傳嘛是的那這個被刪掉之後你要怎麼用呢"},{"start":90.135,"end":115.687,"text":"這個業務是不是就被影響了當然是會影響所以我們為了還是要守護全民健康那怎麼辦呢 你沒有錢可以用啊你少了這個宣傳的部分你又不能留用你也不能從其他預算科目來你的宣傳費用少了60%少了幾千萬所以你衛福部要跟國人做這些意見溝通的時候你要如何處理"},{"start":117.756,"end":127.176,"text":"這個都會再再影響到我們每一個國人的權益是不是那你是不是就是你跟社會的溝通就少60%啊"},{"start":128.649,"end":147.139,"text":"以後本來應該要宣傳比如說現在哪一個疾病哪一個流行性疾病應該要怎麼樣處置這方面的information沒有辦法透過這些各種媒體讓國人能了解難道國人自己每天要去FB排隊問嗎那你到底要如何處理呢"},{"start":151.277,"end":171.263,"text":"我想河山這方面的預算的確會影響到我們在做一些可能需要不管是防疫或是健康訊息的傳遞但是我想我們會努力努力來你這個是要跟藍白立委溝通的希望明年不要這樣亂砍"},{"start":174.091,"end":197.725,"text":"原因在哪裡他們都誤會說你這個宣傳預算是拿來做政治攻防的啦他們都是做這樣的設想所以一刀就被砍掉60%他不知道部會需要跟國人溝通的事情很多我們衛福部都是以健康跟守護民眾的一個安全這個我相信問題是不相信的人就會拿來亂砍利用多數就隨便亂砍所以今天在這邊談說整備"},{"start":203.869,"end":214.918,"text":"各式各樣的東西的整備一方面給你大砍預算一方面光這方面跟國人溝通就有很大的影響第二個你的業務費被凍結了多少錢業務費整個衛福部嘛是啊凍結是26億凍結26億那總共業務費本來總共是多少"},{"start":233.042,"end":252.44,"text":"凍結了30%是不是?月月凍結了30%是不是現在有在提出解凍?報告委員,我們未完的委員會已經在上禮拜前述解凍解凍,那原來叫凍這個是什麼意思?預算的審查一月通過,然後現在凍這麼多讓你的業務費這樣為難你,讓你難用"},{"start":259.3,"end":277.094,"text":"不行 不能夠又要馬而跑 又要馬而不吃草好 那現在再來機關署 機關署你的經費這跟今天的最直接相關的 你的經費被刪減了多少今天3.1億5千萬主要刪減在哪裡主要還是就是國內外的旅費 教育訓練 水電費還有媒體宣導跟設備費"},{"start":280.656,"end":303.61,"text":"這除了是在業務範圍嗎?對對對,業務範圍那這個對你有什麼影響呢?應該是說,我目前大概盡量用我們署內的預算來挪用來部分,但是...不是不能喔,被刪減的不能留用喔有一些像國內旅費沒有辦法留用,這個部分就會比較麻煩就是說如果一旦未來,比如說南部有登革熱,那我們去...就沒辦法跨區支援啦,這個會比較傷腦筋一點"},{"start":305.051,"end":332.348,"text":"那到底如果真的發生了 你要如何處理呢這個難道要我們所屬同仁自己掏腰包自己出這個旅運費用 自己去處理嗎當然我相信如果他對這個業務有非常崇高的理想跟奉獻精神的人或許叫他自己要出一點這個交通費用 叫他自己去他都還有可能可是這不是一個國家的制度啊"},{"start":333.23,"end":359.362,"text":"對 因為我們通常去支援這個登革的防疫通常要待一個禮拜啦如果從外面調去還有住宿費這個餐飲費這個部分都需要一些解決那你這件事情如何處理這都已經 刪減這項業務會影響到你很大的你的業務的這個推動啊對 所以這個部分我們當然就是盡量南部不要有登革疫情這樣發生啦這不是你 這我也希望大家都希望 但是問題是"},{"start":361.071,"end":384.45,"text":"這個光靠希望 那乾脆就去拜拜好了這有可能是這樣嗎所以你不能夠寄望於說希望它不要發生那這個到底你要如何解決呢沒有辦法解決 現在看起來是沒有能力我們可能就是再看一下我們的傳染病防治法跟災害防救法這邊看有沒有什麼空間可以在這個預算下去爭取"},{"start":386.704,"end":407.122,"text":"那至於今天談到的這些什麼快篩啊 疫苗啊 藥物啊還有跟醫師之間的這些的費用在疾管署這邊有沒有被動到的這部分倒是 主要是那個疫苗的費用一開始有動了一千萬 不過也解動了其他的部分倒還好 倒沒有"},{"start":410.515,"end":417.49,"text":"這個鑰匙工會的全國性的理事長所談到的說他有一些抱怨這間部長你知道這個訊息吧"},{"start":421.116,"end":443.463,"text":"哪一方 不曉得哪一方 防疫方面嗎剛剛不是前一個委員才剛問你他說黃金順怎麼樣怎麼樣我想任何一個團體他就好像藝界團體 藥界團體能夠超前部署來提醒我覺得我們都但是大家話說在前面你要你準備 要你準備我贊成"},{"start":444.54,"end":462.117,"text":"站在我中央政府這個立法我立法院我個人委員的角度我也贊成可是叫你準備如果過剩之後將來會再回過頭來說你為什麼準備這麼多呢以前他們都是用這樣的雙重手法一開始疫苗不夠趕快進疫苗"},{"start":463.598,"end":490.81,"text":"再來疫苗 大家施打的意願不高就怪你說怎麼浪費那麼多你記不記得你以前在我們本院當委員的時候我們同事過嘛 這個是 印象應該是很深刻啊所以我的意思是說你提早準備 我很贊成但是你要謹防這些人會浪費這麼多你知道嗎他換了一個時空環境會回過頭來指責說 為什麼你浪費這麼多因為你提早準備"},{"start":492.27,"end":507.188,"text":"你當然就是要有一個安全的量那安全的量萬一將來使用不夠有剩餘的時候他會回過頭來指責你喔是這一點大家話先說在前面你要有以待之齁我們很小心加油好 謝謝全力支持你 希望加油謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162277","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162277","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5641f7bdbf6e5840c27bbacbcf4f939c22ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc4c7f6e4539bc04505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:43:47 - 10:52:37","影片長度":"00:08:50","會議時間":"2025-06-05T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、衛生福利部就「最近疫情再起，有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑、疫苗、各式藥品及相關醫療機構因應措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:43:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:52:37+08:00","duration":530,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.31721875,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.915968750000001,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.869093750000001,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.285968750000002,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.46721875,"end":51.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.157843750000005,"end":54.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.73971875,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.75659375,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.68471875,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.70159375,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.735343750000006,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.853468750000005,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.90409375,"end":55.937843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.937843750000006,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.971593750000004,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.76471875,"end":57.625343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.18909375,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.49159375,"end":77.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.47034375,"end":123.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.48596875000001,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.70534375000001,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.38721875,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":96.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.72471875000001,"end":96.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.74159375,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.65721875000001,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.21346875,"end":128.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.47471875000002,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.36846875,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.03909375,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.06846875000002,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.66284375,"end":141.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.67971875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.53159375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.25721875000002,"end":145.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.77159375000002,"end":158.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.59409375,"end":151.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.61346875,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.84971875000002,"end":162.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.60471875000002,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.66346875000002,"end":165.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.57034375,"end":168.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.38409375,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.80596875,"end":170.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.05909375000002,"end":171.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.10971875,"end":171.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.14346875,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.59471875,"end":172.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.69596875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.71284375000002,"end":172.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.88159375,"end":175.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.58159375000002,"end":184.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.39034375,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.25096875,"end":188.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.71034375000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.38909375,"end":192.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.27909375000002,"end":201.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.53096875,"end":203.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.39159375000003,"end":203.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.94846875000002,"end":209.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.33596875,"end":218.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.69284375,"end":223.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.70471875,"end":230.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.99096875,"end":231.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.96534375000002,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.49659375000002,"end":233.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.58034375000003,"end":238.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.44096875000002,"end":238.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.98096875000002,"end":239.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.47034375,"end":239.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.52096875,"end":240.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.87096875,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.17471875,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.63034375,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.89534375000002,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.15159375000002,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.97346875,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.76159375000003,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.77846875,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.97659375,"end":267.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.49096875000004,"end":269.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.63846875,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.83596875,"end":277.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.32096875,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.35471875,"end":285.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.83909375,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.87284375,"end":283.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.18034375,"end":288.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.52159375,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.24221875,"end":307.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.16846875000005,"end":347.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.46596875,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.47346875,"end":354.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.97846875000005,"end":363.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.84721875,"end":366.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.30596875000003,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.03159375,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.44909375000003,"end":376.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.66409375,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.43596875000003,"end":378.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.98409375,"end":398.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.70409375,"end":391.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.16721875,"end":397.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.12909375000004,"end":424.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.19659375000003,"end":427.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.47471875,"end":430.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.41534375000003,"end":432.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.61346875000004,"end":430.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.98034375000003,"end":439.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.96659375,"end":464.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.68409375000005,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.91534375000003,"end":470.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.16846875000005,"end":470.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.96534375000005,"end":488.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":488.98409375000006,"end":510.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.57971875000004,"end":524.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.79284375,"end":525.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.8390937500001,"end":527.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.2397187500001,"end":527.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.5772187499999,"end":529.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.6615937500001,"end":528.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.74159375,"end":530.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.46721875,"end":529.48409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.616,"end":10.208,"text":"謝謝主席 有請沈記長還有安修部長安修部長"},{"start":17.301,"end":36.195,"text":"其實我看到今天的這個題目其實相當的熟悉因為在一百一十年的時候十月的時候十一月的時候我們有接連兩次找了審計部來做專案報告主要也是針對這個衛福部的整個採購流程那當初你就提出這個採購流程預算執行的建議當中有八個審核意見"},{"start":37.136,"end":50.883,"text":"那後來衛福部有一定程度的這個改善即便是在非常緊急的情況底下衛福部會做這些改善那現在相對沒有那麼緊急的情況底下就你所吃的部分衛福部還沒有其他的問題還沒有進行改善的"},{"start":52.23,"end":68.894,"text":"目前我們提出了一件 衛福部都有回應都有嘛 所以今天的主題其實基本上應該審計這邊應該沒有什麼太大的問題嘛那既然如此的話 我覺得不是缺貨的問題可能是缺人打的問題比較多啦那個部長 區部長我去查過JN1的這個疫苗呢 去年交貨是550萬劑你知道目前剩下還有多少劑嗎"},{"start":76.576,"end":97.76,"text":"三百萬劑左右我看到的是三百零五萬劑之所以會剩下這麼多主要是第一劑的接種的部分只有九點二九點一二第二劑的部分更只有零點二五高危險成員部分六十五歲以上是十八點八五我覺得去年你們有一個口號還不錯左流右心我聽你們口號我還去打"},{"start":99.021,"end":122.779,"text":"就打完之後我以為你這口號很成功結果想不到這個比例差那麼多流感的部分還有破五成為什麼大家對流感接受這麼高然後呢對這個新冠疫苗的這個部分的接種差這麼多是不是有可能第一個這個有一些這個感冒當然有即時性有壓迫性的問題或第二個聽說要分兩次吃打第二次就沒吃打會不會這樣子 邱部長"},{"start":124.397,"end":140.588,"text":"我想這個的確是需要先導啦 謝謝委員的關心因為變異株還是不一樣 可是很多人都覺得他以前已經打過好多劑了啦或者甚至有的感染過了醫生只要打一次而已嘛 但是其實還是有變異株的問題啦像我大概打了八九次了吧那10月1號走的又新也是有打了"},{"start":147.953,"end":158.12,"text":"對啊 我也都有打咧但是問題不是我們有沒有打問題是很多民眾都沒有打這才是會讓我們緊張的一個原因嘛你305劑我就問嘛你的Daylight到什麼時候保存實現啊到9月底到今年9月底到9月底 對350萬劑價值多少錢 採購金的多少"},{"start":170.421,"end":191.296,"text":"阿賀 你居然不曉得大概三四十億 三十億左右三十億左右 三十億左右就打水漂欸 拜託要加緊宣傳 宣傳發言人有被刪掉嗎 有被刪掉嗎沒有沒有被刪掉 你們加緊宣傳啊 必要的時候找一下院長出來打一下嘛 院長打了沒有部長"},{"start":193.72,"end":217.152,"text":"有 前一陣子有聽到院長在安排前一陣子 我講你就說前一陣子有安排我沒有講就沒有安排那副總統打了沒有副總統打了沒有這個第一個就是要有一定的條件啦當時就是65歲或者慢性病部長你不要偏插去了嘛我現在告訴你 我現在想說如何讓你的業務能夠提升嘛你就要把這一種代表性的人物請出來"},{"start":219.744,"end":236.519,"text":"拜託你三百零五萬劑在那邊打水漂三十億耶拜託到時候詐約長就拿人家出來攻擊你這施打率實在是差太多了嘛我們全力在先導全力在先導用盡各種方法在九月之前目標是多少會不會超過五十"},{"start":239.022,"end":262.808,"text":"包委員自我挑戰一下是因為這個疫苗它本身就是很多人都感染過跟他會覺得你不要跟我講這個啦你竟然設定這個五百你竟然買了五百五十萬就是代表這個需要施打的數目嘛我們全力以赴我們全力以赴不要跟我講那些例外的嘛這就是你要的目標啊不然就不要買那麼多啊應該是說我們現在除了這個全 就是"},{"start":263.488,"end":288.184,"text":"全體的國民的接種另外一個比較順遂是高危險群我們希望能夠超過20%以上20%高危險群的65歲以上20%20%以上現在是18.85因為他剩下只有到六七月只有一個月的時間你下去你下去我不要跟你討論了部長我再跟你講一下癌友的這個復原道路我們現在有健康台灣"},{"start":290.286,"end":303.436,"text":"賴總統非常有心 健康台灣深耕計畫100億用多少補多少但是我看了結果我們心要的引進 老實講過去10年平均全球460個只有16%在一年內拖29%納入這個醫療給付第一個 時間拖了很長"},{"start":308.24,"end":327.627,"text":"第二個呢 因為價格的問題進來之後呢你們限縮對象 限縮療程 限縮時間不得替代 不同替用 等等連這個限縮對象的部分發療無效才能用發療的無效啊 八個月啊還有晚期的這個患者才能用你在用這個有什麼意義這第一個嘛"},{"start":327.947,"end":347.726,"text":"那之所以會這樣子就是因為你價格來限制了這個耽誤時間嘛第三個呢到了這個健保署的時候又限縮一次用適應證來做限縮縮縮縮不外乎就是錢錢錢的問題嘛那現在錢錢錢已經拿了一百億用多少可以補多少你這個問題要什麼時候可以改善部長請回答"},{"start":348.63,"end":377.457,"text":"報告委員我想我們政府尤其是賴總統非常重視癌症的一個防治除了在預防方面投入很多的經費以外在治療的這個部分也給我們癌症百益基金這個是對癌症的病人非常的有幫助這當中當然會讓我們現在健保署一直在開放一直在開放就是希望需要的人癌症需要的人就馬上可以但是感覺上還是慢慢啊對不對你們快快快"},{"start":378.297,"end":400.584,"text":"陳副署長要不要說我們現在已經縮短到謝謝委員的槌詢我們今年在健康台灣裡面的這個癌症新藥基金如同國員剛所說的是100億那我們的總額增加是8.13%712億那關於所謂新藥引進的時間我們在去年新藥引進的時間已經大幅度縮短到一年以內那未來我們會持續一年以內了嗎因為去以前是787天喔"},{"start":402.265,"end":424.204,"text":"你說了一年一年就代表你進步了我再說一個例子好了最近我接到一個什麼寡宿塗膠之流兩都已經 主治醫生都幫他申請了兩次都沒有過他說不符合適應症就我剛剛講的嘛就用盡各種方法來限縮嘛明明一種藥可以治六種癌症你就把它說 喔這只有這一種比較好而已"},{"start":425.631,"end":441.652,"text":"這 我這個個案你拿回去檢討一下好不好 副書長是是 我們會回去身子檢討民怨一大堆啦 從台南打到台北來啦各位委員報告 我們的新藥引進事實上是有個審議委員會那事實上是在審議委員會沒有通過所以我們會回去再盤點這個流程對啦 你要好好地判讀一下啦 要提 要"},{"start":442.293,"end":463.965,"text":"苦民所苦啦那最後問一下那個部長現在到七月的時候高峰嘛要二十萬人嘛那這樣的情況底下你已經啟動了這一個我們的部那個衛福部的所屬的醫院加開門診 夜間門診啦那一般的醫療院所有開始溝通了沒有SOP出來了沒有你剛剛有提到超前部署你可不可以稍微講一下"},{"start":464.721,"end":487.918,"text":"包委員我們在COVID那幾年當中可以說是做好分級分流的一個體系所以我們要再啟動這樣的一個體系是沒有問題的好我相信你這個沒有問題還有包括口罩的部分的宣傳我相信都沒有問題我這條退後過我最後一題問你現在台日之間的水產您也是東大畢業的這個我們之前花了八年的時間讓石斑魚能夠去日本"},{"start":489.099,"end":510.258,"text":"那現在問題對方也花了6年的時間申請讓河豚來到台灣那我問了農業部說卡在衛福部啊那衛福部在去年12月也去實地查核過了那我就問一個簡單的原因到底要等多久有沒有可能年底有沒有可能無毒養殖的先進口"},{"start":511.996,"end":528.513,"text":"這個現在就一直在請專家在會議研議有沒有目標值嘛如果說沒有讀了就讓他進來大家就知道怕河豚你們一定有進度啦不要講那個啦我們會努力讓他盡快盡快我們年底試看看好不好好 我們再努力好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564e22c56cb0e9ca88a060ab8db497a762146063d171e8badfa103f035c999116f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:09:14 - 11:15:43","影片長度":"00:06:29","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:09:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:15:43+08:00","duration":389,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","id":"公聽會-2025052933","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.52284375,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.95659375,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.85096875,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.85471875,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.16784375,"end":69.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.91034375000001,"end":125.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.83409375000001,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.15784375,"end":135.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.89159375,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.02409375000002,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.54409375,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.76034375,"end":331.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.96221875000003,"end":361.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.30346875000004,"end":365.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.66159375,"end":378.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.04721875,"end":389.97846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":1.39,"text":"各位專家學者,還有衛福部跟債務部的"},{"start":17.918,"end":40.997,"text":"我是立法委員林月琴我覺得源自於制度所發生的爭議當然要用制度來解決因為今天針對國外牙醫跟醫學學歷的那個認證制度我覺得聚焦在制度是不是完善是不是能夠跟國際接軌同時也要回應社會普遍關心的一個問題就是說我們能不能給民眾足夠的"},{"start":42.118,"end":67.019,"text":"健康保障是否提供學生清楚合理的升學跟職業入境而且能不能消弭家長跟學生的錯誤期待我覺得這件事情是要來解決的過去我們台灣的學生取得國外醫科跟亞裔的學歷管道包括美國加大這邊列了蠻多學校澳洲紐西蘭南非新加坡跟香港"},{"start":69.901,"end":93.332,"text":"不只是今年飽受爭議的中歐跟東歐國家在現行規定下每一年開放50個實習名額給這些學生排隊人數超過600人至少要12年才排得到那中歐東歐特別事實上是波瀾之所以飽受爭議我剛才也很贊成說我們不可以把這全部的國外的這個亞裔留學都成為這樣子波波亞裔這樣似乎有一點"},{"start":93.868,"end":111.04,"text":"不太恰當因為有來自不同的一些國家不過的確過去波蘭之所以飽受爭議是原因在當地的部分學校學歷門檻非常的寬鬆實習的時數不足而且台灣硬硬的學歷考試也很寬鬆那面對這個爭議政府以嚴格的學歷審查限制實習的名額"},{"start":115.743,"end":132.228,"text":"提高國考的門檻為管理制度的建立方向那台灣的牙醫系的確門檻非常非常的高與醫科並列醫學院的榜首入局率只有千分之三2025年招生大概人數只有391位可是課程時數6960小時加上實習超過8000小時才能畢業"},{"start":140.411,"end":161.43,"text":"畢業後通過國考得以執業國考的入取率就是7.4%相較於國外如果國內的學費是相對比較低的那當然競爭非常激烈可是相較之下呢近年飽受爭議的當中東歐的那個亞裔學系入學的資格呢比較缺乏公信力的鑑別制度然後沒有名額的限制"},{"start":161.85,"end":176.423,"text":"所以部分的學校台籍學生比例高達到六成那課程的實習時數也不一定也不一致那有些部分學校才兩千小時那學歷審查不一定事實上是符合台灣普遍的標準返國後可申請國考跟實習"},{"start":179.666,"end":199.023,"text":"那问题的根本在于台湾过去缺乏一套制度性的标准让出国留学的学生有所依循造成不论学生在国外学了什么回国只要通过实习国考就可以职业的结果所以这样子的一个争议具体来说就是过去"},{"start":199.744,"end":216.873,"text":"我們的制度缺乏課程實習授課方式學歷驗證這四項確定學歷真假的鑑別制度是沒有做的所以單靠國家考試來鑑別專業能力尤其是台灣補教業比較發達民眾普遍有"},{"start":217.413,"end":242.854,"text":"透過補習來準備考試的經驗這當然也會使得歸國學生受到一些質疑那我個人認為是我們應該要制度的合理化不應該事實上不要去擋人家求學而是要建立一套能夠兼顧公平專業透明的審查制度我們國人如果出去國外求學難道回來不能"},{"start":245.33,"end":260.495,"text":"職業嗎所以可是反而事實上那當然也要符合水準因為畢竟醫學事實上是要救人的或者是要維護國人的健康的所以我認為要建立一套能夠兼顧公平專業透明的審查制度也要考慮這些學生畢業後的就業學習跟醫療責任的接軌機制"},{"start":266.537,"end":293.857,"text":"这是要去做的先进国家像美国英国澳洲新加坡都有明确的医学院的认可名单并搭配考试语言鉴定跟学历的检核的制度相较于台湾真的事实上我们的制度非常的落后所以去年11月25号公布的医师法施行细则就是要去建立制度也试图要跟社会沟通用具体的政策尽可能拉近"},{"start":294.557,"end":297.662,"text":"我們跟社會期待之間的距離所以目前大概"},{"start":303.055,"end":328.162,"text":"已經開始在做不過當然我想回應民眾的一些疑慮政策還有一些進步的空間就是說所以首先施行細則的第10條的規定應盡速公佈那個認定名單進一步我們的期待是未來能夠以正面的表列方式提出認定的學校名單第二個是國考還是要以筆試為主的話那筆試通常無法體現專業技術應該偵測數科"},{"start":332.023,"end":353.019,"text":"模擬病例的考試題目第三英文能力不能只用來排除中文課程而應該要求醫學生具有一定以上的英文能力跟好跟那個國際接軌喔第四我們的學歷審查不能夠依靠教育部跟衛福部應該委託專業機構成立全國性的醫學學歷"},{"start":353.9,"end":378.44,"text":"审查的机构那第五建立职业前先试用或限制职业范围的实习机构在通过国考后第二层的能力把关建立制度所以最终的目标还是希望能够建立与国际接轨的台湾版本的制度而不是全盘照抄我们要保障的是医疗品质学生的权益制度公平这三者缺一不可以上谢谢"},{"start":383.086,"end":385.268,"text":"謝謝 謝謝林委員那最後一個是吳國志議員"}]}},{"id":"16733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16733","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6851c393f606ce943214d503f9c4523e571fdab1a38f0d348c0874044244e0432da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-05T08:29:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:49:00+08:00","duration":11942,"影片長度":"03:19:02","委員發言時間":"08:29:58 - 11:49:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","id":"公聽會-2025052933","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":466.65846875000005,"end":469.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2072.1797187500006,"end":2076.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2073.8672187500006,"end":2078.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2077.07346875,"end":2077.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2084.78534375,"end":2085.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2085.7303437500004,"end":2086.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2088.58221875,"end":2113.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2115.1940937500003,"end":2116.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2116.96596875,"end":2120.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2121.92721875,"end":2128.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2128.6434687500005,"end":2138.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2138.12721875,"end":2140.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2140.2703437500004,"end":2141.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2144.5059687500006,"end":2146.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2146.6490937500002,"end":2149.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2149.4840937500003,"end":2153.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2154.59721875,"end":2161.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2161.70159375,"end":2162.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2163.27096875,"end":2166.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2166.71346875,"end":2168.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2170.1053437500004,"end":2171.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2172.2653437500003,"end":2177.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2177.7497187500003,"end":2178.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2180.68596875,"end":2188.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2189.8659687500003,"end":2190.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2192.9540937500005,"end":2195.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2196.9365937500006,"end":2201.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2201.7965937500003,"end":2202.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2206.0828437500004,"end":2211.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2211.24659375,"end":2216.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2217.5409687500005,"end":2220.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2221.7428437500002,"end":2222.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2223.4303437500002,"end":2224.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2226.29909375,"end":2229.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2231.3447187500005,"end":2231.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2232.1715937500003,"end":2233.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2235.88409375,"end":2239.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2240.45721875,"end":2241.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2242.4990937500006,"end":2243.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2244.57471875,"end":2251.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2251.62846875,"end":2255.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2256.5897187500004,"end":2257.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2262.1247187500003,"end":2266.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2266.37721875,"end":2267.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2268.30096875,"end":2269.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2270.54534375,"end":2273.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2275.43909375,"end":2276.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2277.4978437500004,"end":2279.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2279.5059687500006,"end":2281.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2281.7840937500005,"end":2281.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2281.86846875,"end":2281.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2281.98659375,"end":2283.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2285.36159375,"end":2290.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2294.05221875,"end":2297.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2298.8447187500005,"end":2299.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2300.2115937500002,"end":2302.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2303.1140937500004,"end":2303.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2304.58221875,"end":2307.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2308.39596875,"end":2309.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2310.5897187500004,"end":2312.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2313.5428437500004,"end":2313.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2316.47909375,"end":2318.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2320.7147187500004,"end":2323.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2326.3678437500002,"end":2330.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2331.4978437500004,"end":2337.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2339.37846875,"end":2342.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2342.24721875,"end":2344.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2345.08221875,"end":2345.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2346.85409375,"end":2350.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2350.56659375,"end":2351.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2352.4734687500004,"end":2357.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2358.12659375,"end":2360.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2360.9109687500004,"end":2362.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2362.86846875,"end":2363.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2366.17596875,"end":2367.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2368.9772187500002,"end":2375.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2380.95846875,"end":2521.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2413.12221875,"end":2415.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2522.21909375,"end":2532.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2533.2890937500006,"end":2551.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2554.65284375,"end":2554.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2554.6697187500004,"end":2554.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2554.77096875,"end":2554.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2554.9734687500004,"end":2555.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2557.3865937500004,"end":2566.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2568.8953437500004,"end":2573.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2573.5865937500002,"end":2578.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2581.87221875,"end":2582.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2584.0153437500003,"end":2596.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2597.3465937500005,"end":2625.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2626.11846875,"end":2631.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2642.3015937500004,"end":2692.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2693.5847187500003,"end":2714.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2715.6572187500005,"end":2768.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2768.94846875,"end":2807.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2807.35596875,"end":2849.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2850.15096875,"end":2863.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2863.95471875,"end":2938.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2940.1622187500006,"end":2942.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2942.76096875,"end":2946.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2955.50159375,"end":3003.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3003.46034375,"end":3011.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3013.34909375,"end":3019.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3020.3015937500004,"end":3021.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3021.6178437500002,"end":3024.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3024.68909375,"end":3046.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3046.1709687500006,"end":3047.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3048.36471875,"end":3055.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3056.75159375,"end":3059.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3059.6034687500005,"end":3065.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3066.1678437500004,"end":3067.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3068.54721875,"end":3073.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3073.96409375,"end":3087.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3087.8015937500004,"end":3091.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3092.0878437500005,"end":3094.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3094.1803437500002,"end":3095.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3095.78346875,"end":3096.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3097.4372187500003,"end":3097.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3098.2472187500007,"end":3101.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3101.1159687500003,"end":3104.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3105.31784375,"end":3112.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3113.70471875,"end":3115.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3116.52284375,"end":3129.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3130.2928437500004,"end":3144.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3145.2272187500002,"end":3155.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3155.99346875,"end":3191.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3192.4772187500002,"end":3205.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3205.60596875,"end":3223.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3224.1347187500005,"end":3228.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3229.4840937500003,"end":3241.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3242.5115937500004,"end":3253.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3253.5984687500004,"end":3261.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3262.54221875,"end":3262.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3263.3184687500006,"end":3265.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3265.93409375,"end":3267.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3267.9590937500006,"end":3268.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3269.30909375,"end":3280.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3280.46346875,"end":3283.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3283.6190937500005,"end":3288.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3289.32284375,"end":3308.3240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3308.94846875,"end":3310.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3311.26034375,"end":3316.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3316.9472187500005,"end":3325.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3326.7684687500005,"end":3328.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3328.7428437500002,"end":3334.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3335.4422187500004,"end":3337.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3337.5009687500005,"end":3342.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3343.30596875,"end":3355.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3356.2997187500005,"end":3359.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3359.87721875,"end":3373.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3374.3222187500005,"end":3375.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3375.80721875,"end":3377.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3377.9503437500007,"end":3382.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3383.1309687500006,"end":3385.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3385.30784375,"end":3389.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3392.2772187500004,"end":3393.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3393.39096875,"end":3394.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3395.26409375,"end":3396.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3397.4072187500005,"end":3399.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3399.55034375,"end":3401.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3401.7440937500005,"end":3419.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3419.4628437500005,"end":3420.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3420.57659375,"end":3420.8634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3423.3103437500004,"end":3425.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3425.3522187500002,"end":3426.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3427.98471875,"end":3429.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3429.68909375,"end":3430.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3430.76909375,"end":3453.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3453.4997187500003,"end":3455.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3455.2547187500004,"end":3456.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3456.7228437500007,"end":3457.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3458.37659375,"end":3459.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3460.58721875,"end":3462.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3462.93284375,"end":3465.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3466.0547187500006,"end":3473.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3473.9353437500004,"end":3488.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3488.85284375,"end":3492.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3493.1728437500005,"end":3501.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3501.88034375,"end":3503.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3503.5847187500003,"end":3505.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3505.4747187500006,"end":3507.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3508.2422187500006,"end":3511.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3512.4609687500006,"end":3515.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3516.83159375,"end":3527.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3528.1378437500007,"end":3533.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3534.60096875,"end":3535.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3535.4109687500004,"end":3536.8790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3537.1490937500002,"end":3538.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3538.6172187500006,"end":3539.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3540.1190937500005,"end":3544.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3545.1140937500004,"end":3563.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3563.0859687500006,"end":3566.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3566.66346875,"end":3567.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3567.9122187500006,"end":3569.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3569.7009687500004,"end":3572.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3580.5515937500004,"end":3581.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3581.96909375,"end":3587.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3587.7740937500002,"end":3590.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3590.28846875,"end":3591.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3591.4528437500003,"end":3593.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3594.64221875,"end":3613.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3614.2003437500007,"end":3615.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3616.09034375,"end":3617.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3617.76096875,"end":3621.6759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3622.2497187500003,"end":3635.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3635.2940937500007,"end":3640.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3640.3903437500003,"end":3651.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3651.5447187500004,"end":3801.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3802.1540937500004,"end":3828.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3828.88409375,"end":3830.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3830.7740937500002,"end":3872.5734687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3872.77596875,"end":3878.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3879.50909375,"end":3933.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3933.7959687500006,"end":3938.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3938.6559687500003,"end":3944.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3945.15284375,"end":3946.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3946.0303437500006,"end":3946.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3946.0978437500007,"end":3946.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3946.16534375,"end":3949.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3949.84409375,"end":3950.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3951.17721875,"end":3951.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3952.5947187500005,"end":3956.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3965.2509687500005,"end":3993.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3994.4784687500005,"end":4003.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4003.7428437500002,"end":4008.6534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4009.0078437500006,"end":4015.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4015.8590937500003,"end":4044.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4045.3397187500004,"end":4066.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4067.31096875,"end":4070.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4070.4328437500008,"end":4074.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4074.85409375,"end":4080.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4080.4228437500005,"end":4095.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4096.065968749999,"end":4112.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4112.8397187499995,"end":4114.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4114.5947187500005,"end":4115.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4115.522843750001,"end":4118.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4118.982218749999,"end":4132.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4132.482218749999,"end":4138.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4139.012843750001,"end":4149.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4149.779093749999,"end":4153.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4153.45784375,"end":4159.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4159.93784375,"end":4168.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4169.26971875,"end":4169.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4170.58596875,"end":4175.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4175.63159375,"end":4177.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4178.5340937500005,"end":4181.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4182.128468749999,"end":4186.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4186.88721875,"end":4187.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4188.135968750001,"end":4203.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4203.94784375,"end":4235.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4235.419718749999,"end":4238.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4239.30096875,"end":4239.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4240.482218749999,"end":4242.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4242.94596875,"end":4245.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4245.94971875,"end":4247.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4247.77221875,"end":4249.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4250.100968750001,"end":4250.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4251.366593750001,"end":4254.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4254.927218750001,"end":4255.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4255.7372187500005,"end":4275.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4275.835343750001,"end":4290.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4290.600968750001,"end":4291.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4291.42784375,"end":4292.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4293.67221875,"end":4300.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4300.962218750001,"end":4303.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4304.185343749999,"end":4332.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4332.5184687500005,"end":4333.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4333.497218750001,"end":4335.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4337.749718749999,"end":4339.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4340.145968750001,"end":4343.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4359.75471875,"end":4360.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4362.269093749999,"end":4375.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4376.54534375,"end":4379.144093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4379.63346875,"end":4395.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4396.170968750001,"end":4425.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4426.41096875,"end":4451.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4451.942843750001,"end":4463.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4463.92409375,"end":4472.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4473.01971875,"end":4481.659718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4481.997218750001,"end":4527.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4527.559718750001,"end":4532.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4532.58846875,"end":4551.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4551.876593749999,"end":4591.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4591.684718750001,"end":4594.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4594.215968750001,"end":4594.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4594.28346875,"end":4609.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4609.8084687499995,"end":4616.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4616.92971875,"end":4621.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4621.84034375,"end":4624.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4624.33784375,"end":4625.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4625.620343750001,"end":4646.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4646.35971875,"end":4647.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4647.99659375,"end":4648.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4649.07659375,"end":4653.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4653.649718750001,"end":4660.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4661.12534375,"end":4705.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4705.47284375,"end":4707.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4707.80159375,"end":4710.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4710.77159375,"end":4721.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4722.465968750001,"end":4729.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4729.70534375,"end":4750.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4753.85346875,"end":4757.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4757.565968750001,"end":4763.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4764.9403437500005,"end":4767.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4767.825968749999,"end":4773.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4774.069718750001,"end":4780.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4781.427218750001,"end":4782.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4782.7772187499995,"end":4788.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4789.03784375,"end":4790.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4790.72534375,"end":4794.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4796.6990937499995,"end":4798.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4799.517218749999,"end":4800.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4800.71534375,"end":4801.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4802.79096875,"end":4803.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4804.545968750001,"end":4810.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4810.907843749999,"end":4814.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4814.2997187500005,"end":4814.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4815.10971875,"end":4823.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4823.513468749999,"end":4827.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4827.52971875,"end":4829.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4830.01034375,"end":4856.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4856.757218750001,"end":4871.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4881.276593750001,"end":4908.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4910.099093750001,"end":4910.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4911.48284375,"end":4912.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4912.56284375,"end":4916.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4916.30909375,"end":4917.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4918.97534375,"end":4921.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4921.28721875,"end":4928.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4928.982218749999,"end":4941.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4942.026593750001,"end":4951.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4952.16846875,"end":4958.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4959.171593749999,"end":4983.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4983.77534375,"end":4985.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4987.36971875,"end":4993.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4993.866593750001,"end":5007.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5007.417218750001,"end":5012.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5012.901593750001,"end":5015.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5015.7197187500005,"end":5017.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5018.470343749999,"end":5036.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5036.50971875,"end":5040.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5041.28534375,"end":5054.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5055.038468750001,"end":5056.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5056.97909375,"end":5061.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5062.0584687499995,"end":5067.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5068.167218750001,"end":5075.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5076.452843749999,"end":5080.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5080.36784375,"end":5080.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5082.91596875,"end":5084.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5084.991593750001,"end":5092.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5101.27596875,"end":5120.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5120.513468749999,"end":5135.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5135.78534375,"end":5141.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5142.24846875,"end":5149.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5149.97721875,"end":5151.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5152.13721875,"end":5152.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5153.520968750001,"end":5157.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5158.3134687500005,"end":5158.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5159.1572187500005,"end":5159.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5159.849093750001,"end":5161.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5162.245343750001,"end":5165.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5165.82284375,"end":5181.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5181.3309687500005,"end":5182.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5182.343468749999,"end":5183.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5184.19971875,"end":5187.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5187.94596875,"end":5221.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5222.08409375,"end":5248.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5248.493468750001,"end":5248.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5249.32034375,"end":5259.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5260.575968749999,"end":5270.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5271.07221875,"end":5271.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5272.6415937500005,"end":5273.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5273.7215937500005,"end":5303.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5303.45534375,"end":5308.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5308.720343749999,"end":5310.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5311.36971875,"end":5314.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5315.40284375,"end":5317.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5318.187218749999,"end":5320.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5321.9334687499995,"end":5322.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5322.321593750001,"end":5373.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5374.43159375,"end":5395.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5396.0653437500005,"end":5407.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5407.9959687499995,"end":5408.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5408.2997187500005,"end":5428.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5428.78596875,"end":5443.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5444.02409375,"end":5445.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5445.880343750001,"end":5446.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5447.07846875,"end":5453.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5454.233468750001,"end":5467.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5470.19721875,"end":5471.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5471.429093750001,"end":5474.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5475.19221875,"end":5475.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5475.90096875,"end":5477.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5478.600968750001,"end":5479.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5480.288468750001,"end":5481.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5482.7353437500005,"end":5484.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5484.62534375,"end":5489.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5497.41659375,"end":5520.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5520.417218750001,"end":5520.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5523.977843750001,"end":5884.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5887.482218749999,"end":5892.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5892.7978437500005,"end":5896.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5901.91034375,"end":5902.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5903.057843750001,"end":5919.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5919.3759687500005,"end":5945.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5945.81909375,"end":5949.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5949.9872187500005,"end":5983.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5984.54721875,"end":5986.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5988.25971875,"end":6004.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6004.915343750001,"end":6010.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6010.635968750001,"end":6017.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6017.2509687500005,"end":6020.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6020.474093750001,"end":6022.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6024.06846875,"end":6026.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6026.22846875,"end":6032.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6033.2147187499995,"end":6043.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6043.491593750001,"end":6049.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6050.1572187500005,"end":6073.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6073.37721875,"end":6077.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6078.38909375,"end":6079.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6079.73909375,"end":6080.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6081.57846875,"end":6089.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6090.75846875,"end":6097.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6097.727843750001,"end":6098.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6099.16221875,"end":6103.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6103.65096875,"end":6118.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6118.70346875,"end":6126.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6127.343468749999,"end":6135.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6135.510968750001,"end":6137.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6137.95784375,"end":6153.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6153.685343749999,"end":6166.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6166.66221875,"end":6168.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6169.24409375,"end":6176.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6176.753468750001,"end":6185.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6185.22471875,"end":6193.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6194.45534375,"end":6196.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6196.83471875,"end":6212.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6213.47346875,"end":6217.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6218.11409375,"end":6238.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6238.33034375,"end":6241.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6241.73909375,"end":6252.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6253.4334687499995,"end":6270.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6270.1903437500005,"end":6271.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6271.388468749999,"end":6272.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6272.63721875,"end":6272.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6272.654093749999,"end":6272.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6272.73846875,"end":6273.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6273.514718750001,"end":6274.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6275.97846875,"end":6278.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6279.96096875,"end":6281.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6281.800343750001,"end":6283.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6283.50471875,"end":6287.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6296.81909375,"end":6300.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6300.86909375,"end":6303.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6303.33284375,"end":6307.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6308.327843749999,"end":6325.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6326.620343750001,"end":6331.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6331.69971875,"end":6343.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6343.529093749999,"end":6348.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6349.51971875,"end":6368.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6368.4872187500005,"end":6381.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6381.599093750001,"end":6386.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6386.610968750001,"end":6397.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6397.83284375,"end":6401.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6402.25409375,"end":6403.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6404.565968750001,"end":6407.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6407.4853437500005,"end":6415.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6416.192843750001,"end":6423.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6424.1747187500005,"end":6448.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6450.29721875,"end":6466.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6466.98659375,"end":6469.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6475.08659375,"end":6476.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6476.655968749999,"end":6492.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6492.9403437500005,"end":6498.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6498.779093749999,"end":6507.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6509.190968750001,"end":6520.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6521.897843750001,"end":6542.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6542.7215937500005,"end":6544.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6545.30346875,"end":6550.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6550.669718749999,"end":6552.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6552.8465937500005,"end":6579.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6579.99846875,"end":6587.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6587.74409375,"end":6591.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6591.878468750001,"end":6594.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6595.18596875,"end":6596.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6596.384093750001,"end":6617.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6618.70971875,"end":6637.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6637.87971875,"end":6641.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6642.53721875,"end":6646.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6646.73909375,"end":6646.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6646.78971875,"end":6660.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6662.78721875,"end":6663.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6663.44534375,"end":6666.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6669.233468750001,"end":6671.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6672.94596875,"end":6674.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6675.81471875,"end":6678.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6687.25596875,"end":6695.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6695.4403437500005,"end":6703.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6703.33784375,"end":6732.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6733.814093750001,"end":6762.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6762.417218750001,"end":6803.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6804.8915937500005,"end":6806.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6806.984093749999,"end":6812.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6812.7215937500005,"end":6832.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6833.292218750001,"end":6844.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6845.104718750001,"end":6860.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6860.427218750001,"end":6861.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6861.608468750001,"end":6886.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6886.75221875,"end":6890.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6890.616593750001,"end":6900.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6901.23096875,"end":6941.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6941.714093750001,"end":6943.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6943.5028437500005,"end":6968.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6969.28784375,"end":6975.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6975.63284375,"end":6979.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6979.767218750001,"end":6981.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6982.51784375,"end":6997.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6997.33409375,"end":7004.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7004.944718750001,"end":7016.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7016.4872187500005,"end":7023.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7024.300343750001,"end":7036.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7036.669718749999,"end":7042.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7043.55471875,"end":7045.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7046.659718750001,"end":7083.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7086.77159375,"end":7090.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7091.12534375,"end":7095.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7101.317843750001,"end":7121.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7122.546593750001,"end":7123.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7124.2509687500005,"end":7141.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7142.44221875,"end":7144.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7145.429093750001,"end":7146.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7146.10409375,"end":7147.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7147.23471875,"end":7152.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7148.58471875,"end":7150.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7151.1834687499995,"end":7154.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7153.680968750001,"end":7155.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7156.060343749999,"end":7177.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7178.284718750001,"end":7206.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7206.90471875,"end":7252.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7255.589093750001,"end":7298.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7299.312218750001,"end":7329.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7329.839093750001,"end":7335.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7335.745343750001,"end":7337.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7337.7197187500005,"end":7340.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7343.474093750001,"end":7344.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7345.36409375,"end":7347.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7349.717843750001,"end":7392.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7393.6434687500005,"end":7407.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7408.8309687500005,"end":7413.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7415.20971875,"end":7441.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7441.60221875,"end":7442.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7442.530343750001,"end":7445.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7446.63096875,"end":7449.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7450.46159375,"end":7452.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7452.655343750001,"end":7454.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7454.88284375,"end":7476.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7479.33471875,"end":7482.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7482.76034375,"end":7483.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7483.857218749999,"end":7487.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7494.690968750001,"end":7499.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7500.39471875,"end":7529.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7529.55471875,"end":7534.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7535.02221875,"end":7537.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7538.63346875,"end":7539.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7539.62909375,"end":7549.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7549.75409375,"end":7553.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7553.5340937500005,"end":7583.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7583.385968750001,"end":7588.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7589.07284375,"end":7614.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7615.110968750001,"end":7618.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7618.587218750001,"end":7621.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7622.21534375,"end":7624.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7625.202218750001,"end":7626.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7626.11346875,"end":7626.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7627.51409375,"end":7627.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7628.054093750001,"end":7629.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7629.57284375,"end":7646.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7647.274718750001,"end":7654.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7654.919093750001,"end":7655.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7656.10034375,"end":7666.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7666.950968749999,"end":7667.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7667.92971875,"end":7676.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7677.63284375,"end":7678.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7679.235968750001,"end":7694.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7695.7059687500005,"end":7695.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7696.2459687499995,"end":7717.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7718.807843750001,"end":7726.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7727.059718750001,"end":7749.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7749.267218750001,"end":7757.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7757.704718750001,"end":7758.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7759.577843750001,"end":7761.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7761.501593750001,"end":7769.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7770.310343749999,"end":7774.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7775.49096875,"end":7780.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7780.38471875,"end":7783.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7783.60784375,"end":7785.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7786.1053437499995,"end":7788.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7789.37909375,"end":7790.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7791.77534375,"end":7792.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7792.51784375,"end":7808.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7808.667218750001,"end":7812.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7812.497843749999,"end":7814.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7814.45534375,"end":7817.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7817.96534375,"end":7823.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7824.02346875,"end":7824.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7824.90096875,"end":7836.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7836.561593750001,"end":7837.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7838.78909375,"end":7840.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7840.37534375,"end":7845.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7846.83846875,"end":7847.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7848.0028437500005,"end":7848.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7848.91409375,"end":7850.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7850.73659375,"end":7864.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7865.198468750001,"end":7865.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7866.092843750001,"end":7872.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7873.75409375,"end":7890.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7893.53159375,"end":7899.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7900.75409375,"end":7907.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7908.415343750001,"end":7920.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7921.341593749999,"end":7922.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7923.33284375,"end":7925.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7926.825968749999,"end":7942.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7944.460343750001,"end":7954.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7955.429093750001,"end":7966.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7967.477843750001,"end":7968.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7969.2665937500005,"end":7970.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7972.810343749999,"end":7975.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7976.48909375,"end":7978.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7978.66596875,"end":7982.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7983.62721875,"end":7986.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7987.2215937500005,"end":7987.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7988.385968750001,"end":7989.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7989.499718750001,"end":7995.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7995.642218750001,"end":7996.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7997.009093750001,"end":8002.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8003.202218750001,"end":8011.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8011.42034375,"end":8015.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8015.68971875,"end":8019.216593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8019.57096875,"end":8022.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8022.94596875,"end":8025.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8025.359093750001,"end":8026.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8027.0634687500005,"end":8028.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8029.29096875,"end":8035.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8035.99034375,"end":8037.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8038.89284375,"end":8042.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8043.58409375,"end":8052.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8052.696593750001,"end":8056.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8056.69596875,"end":8060.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8060.577218750001,"end":8061.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8062.56846875,"end":8068.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8068.8290937500005,"end":8073.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8073.975968750001,"end":8074.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8079.76409375,"end":8084.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8085.045968750001,"end":8093.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8094.63096875,"end":8120.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8121.1415937500005,"end":8129.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8129.899718750001,"end":8134.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8134.354718750001,"end":8146.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8146.2684687500005,"end":8147.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8147.41596875,"end":8161.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8161.354718750001,"end":8179.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8179.88346875,"end":8181.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8182.46534375,"end":8195.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8195.57721875,"end":8202.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8202.614093750002,"end":8210.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8210.511593750001,"end":8211.743468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8212.13159375,"end":8220.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8221.598468750002,"end":8227.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8228.11221875,"end":8237.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8237.899718749999,"end":8246.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8247.214718750001,"end":8255.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8255.31471875,"end":8258.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8259.22971875,"end":8259.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8259.516593750002,"end":8263.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8264.22471875,"end":8265.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8265.794093750003,"end":8267.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8268.59534375,"end":8270.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8271.07596875,"end":8274.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8274.94034375,"end":8278.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8278.78784375,"end":8279.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8280.10409375,"end":8285.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8285.90909375,"end":8286.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8286.820343750001,"end":8289.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8289.520343750002,"end":8293.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8293.890968750002,"end":8296.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8296.91159375,"end":8297.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8297.60346875,"end":8298.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8298.81846875,"end":8301.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8302.31159375,"end":8309.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8309.68596875,"end":8312.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8313.17909375,"end":8323.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8324.13096875,"end":8338.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8338.37346875,"end":8341.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8341.44471875,"end":8343.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8343.790343750003,"end":8352.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8353.071593750003,"end":8364.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8364.765968750002,"end":8377.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8377.844093750002,"end":8380.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8381.03346875,"end":8388.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8388.74534375,"end":8393.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8394.17909375,"end":8409.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8409.855968750002,"end":8414.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8414.749718750001,"end":8418.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8418.344093750002,"end":8424.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8425.00971875,"end":8425.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8425.347218750001,"end":8433.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8433.19409375,"end":8434.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8434.527218750001,"end":8437.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8437.969718750002,"end":8439.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8439.910343750002,"end":8457.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8457.629093750002,"end":8457.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8457.949718750002,"end":8461.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8461.45971875,"end":8466.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8466.555968750003,"end":8469.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8469.930968750003,"end":8474.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8474.723468750002,"end":8485.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8485.92846875,"end":8487.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8487.734093750001,"end":8488.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8491.800968750002,"end":8497.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8497.72409375,"end":8499.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8507.66346875,"end":8509.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8510.70096875,"end":8514.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8515.81409375,"end":8519.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8519.45909375,"end":8520.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8521.332218750002,"end":8522.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8522.63159375,"end":8524.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8525.63534375,"end":8534.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8535.59159375,"end":8541.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8541.54846875,"end":8544.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8544.653468750003,"end":8546.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8548.14659375,"end":8558.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8558.659718750001,"end":8564.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8565.08909375,"end":8565.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8566.624718750001,"end":8568.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8568.480968750002,"end":8571.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8571.82221875,"end":8573.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8574.167843750001,"end":8576.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8577.15471875,"end":8578.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8580.15846875,"end":8582.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8582.38596875,"end":8582.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8583.33096875,"end":8586.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8586.73971875,"end":8589.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8590.941593750002,"end":8595.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8595.480968750002,"end":8614.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8614.70159375,"end":8615.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8615.96721875,"end":8627.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8627.57721875,"end":8648.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8649.261593750001,"end":8649.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8649.953468750002,"end":8651.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8652.41721875,"end":8654.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8654.813468750002,"end":8659.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8659.707218750002,"end":8659.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8660.449718750002,"end":8661.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8661.344093750002,"end":8661.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8662.457843750002,"end":8664.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8665.090343750002,"end":8666.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8666.676593750002,"end":8667.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8667.824093750001,"end":8668.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8668.92096875,"end":8671.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8671.85721875,"end":8672.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8672.80221875,"end":8673.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8674.219718750002,"end":8688.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8689.06971875,"end":8709.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8710.281593750002,"end":8711.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8711.83409375,"end":8727.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8728.118468750003,"end":8730.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8730.430343750002,"end":8747.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8747.997218750003,"end":8753.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8754.055343750002,"end":8759.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8760.55221875,"end":8766.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8766.542843750001,"end":8777.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8777.460968750001,"end":8781.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8779.01346875,"end":8779.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8782.523468750001,"end":8789.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8789.98221875,"end":8790.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8791.230968750002,"end":8793.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8793.57659375,"end":8796.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8796.79971875,"end":8798.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8799.11159375,"end":8807.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8807.97096875,"end":8821.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8821.67346875,"end":8825.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8826.48284375,"end":8827.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8827.96784375,"end":8829.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8830.43159375,"end":8832.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8833.620968750001,"end":8836.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8836.675343750001,"end":8839.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8841.55221875,"end":8847.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8847.964718750001,"end":8851.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8851.22159375,"end":8851.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8852.21721875,"end":8853.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8854.22534375,"end":8872.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8872.61909375,"end":8884.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8884.988468750002,"end":8886.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8887.48596875,"end":8891.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8891.33346875,"end":8892.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8892.66659375,"end":8909.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8910.368468750003,"end":8912.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8913.43971875,"end":8921.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8922.09659375,"end":8942.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8944.472843750002,"end":8945.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8945.67096875,"end":8948.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8948.55659375,"end":8957.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8958.462218750003,"end":8964.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8965.17846875,"end":8967.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8967.996593750002,"end":8972.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8973.953468750002,"end":8974.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8974.695968750002,"end":8975.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8976.113468750002,"end":8976.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8976.585968750001,"end":8977.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8977.598468750002,"end":8978.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8979.269093750001,"end":8981.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8981.41221875,"end":8982.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8983.57221875,"end":8984.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8985.242843750002,"end":8986.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8987.200343750003,"end":8988.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8988.58409375,"end":8989.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8989.731593750003,"end":9006.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9006.606593750003,"end":9009.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9009.509093750003,"end":9010.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9010.79159375,"end":9011.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9012.192218750002,"end":9012.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9012.22596875,"end":9013.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9013.00221875,"end":9013.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9016.259093750003,"end":9017.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9017.54159375,"end":9018.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9018.97596875,"end":9019.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9019.49909375,"end":9019.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9019.684718750003,"end":9019.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9019.81971875,"end":9020.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9020.39346875,"end":9020.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9022.300343750001,"end":9022.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9022.722218750001,"end":9024.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9022.75596875,"end":9023.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9026.164718750002,"end":9027.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9028.797218750002,"end":9028.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9028.81409375,"end":9029.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9029.10096875,"end":9030.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9030.484718750002,"end":9030.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9030.72096875,"end":9031.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9031.024718750003,"end":9032.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9032.273468750001,"end":9032.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9044.91284375,"end":9047.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9049.317218750002,"end":9049.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9049.45221875,"end":9051.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9050.582843750002,"end":9070.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9059.340968750003,"end":9062.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9070.410968750002,"end":9076.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9077.464718750001,"end":9077.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9077.734718750002,"end":9077.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9077.835968750001,"end":9078.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9079.01721875,"end":9080.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9080.92409375,"end":9088.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9084.07971875,"end":9087.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9088.04534375,"end":9093.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9093.83346875,"end":9099.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9097.54596875,"end":9099.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9099.85784375,"end":9102.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9101.477843750003,"end":9101.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9102.43971875,"end":9104.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9105.64596875,"end":9110.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9106.06784375,"end":9106.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9109.999718750001,"end":9110.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9112.14284375,"end":9115.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9112.34534375,"end":9114.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9118.94346875,"end":9122.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9118.977218750002,"end":9124.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9122.95971875,"end":9124.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9124.714718750001,"end":9126.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9124.782218750002,"end":9125.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9127.245968750001,"end":9128.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9128.039093750001,"end":9129.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9129.945968750002,"end":9132.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9132.13971875,"end":9132.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9132.17346875,"end":9135.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9135.61596875,"end":9138.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9139.41284375,"end":9139.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9139.46346875,"end":9142.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9141.657218750002,"end":9143.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9142.56846875,"end":9143.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9143.125343750002,"end":9145.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9145.437218750001,"end":9145.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9145.58909375,"end":9145.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9145.63971875,"end":9145.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9151.79909375,"end":9153.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9153.621593750002,"end":9154.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9156.08534375,"end":9156.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9163.67909375,"end":9164.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9166.26096875,"end":9167.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9166.36221875,"end":9166.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9167.93159375,"end":9168.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9169.63596875,"end":9169.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9169.703468750002,"end":9169.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9169.973468750002,"end":9170.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9175.27221875,"end":9176.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9185.464718750001,"end":9186.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9187.945343750001,"end":9190.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9190.44284375,"end":9190.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9191.539718750002,"end":9194.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9194.762843750003,"end":9196.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9195.30284375,"end":9195.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9197.46284375,"end":9203.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9198.03659375,"end":9198.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9203.89221875,"end":9207.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9207.722843750002,"end":9211.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9211.77284375,"end":9212.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9217.98284375,"end":9218.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9219.82221875,"end":9221.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9221.94846875,"end":9224.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9224.597843750002,"end":9225.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9227.63534375,"end":9228.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9242.97471875,"end":9244.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9245.219093750002,"end":9257.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9249.08346875,"end":9249.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9249.977843750003,"end":9251.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9254.78721875,"end":9255.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9256.390343750001,"end":9257.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9257.824718750002,"end":9257.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9257.94284375,"end":9257.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9257.976593750001,"end":9258.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9258.06096875,"end":9258.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9258.499718750001,"end":9258.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9258.516593750002,"end":9258.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9258.972218750001,"end":9260.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9268.75971875,"end":9292.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9280.825343750003,"end":9281.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9285.870968750001,"end":9286.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9293.27909375,"end":9323.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9294.730343750001,"end":9295.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9303.45471875,"end":9304.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9305.699093750001,"end":9306.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9309.445343750001,"end":9309.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9309.83346875,"end":9310.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9310.17096875,"end":9310.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9324.34596875,"end":9328.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9328.480343750001,"end":9328.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9328.61534375,"end":9328.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9329.08784375,"end":9350.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9335.399093750002,"end":9336.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9339.668468750002,"end":9339.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9339.70221875,"end":9339.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9339.972218750001,"end":9341.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9341.49096875,"end":9341.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9341.659718750001,"end":9341.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9344.612843750001,"end":9347.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9347.684093750002,"end":9348.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9350.890343750001,"end":9357.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9351.02534375,"end":9351.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9351.14346875,"end":9351.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9351.430343750002,"end":9351.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9357.015968750002,"end":9358.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9357.89346875,"end":9357.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9358.72034375,"end":9368.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9368.929718750001,"end":9371.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9369.63846875,"end":9369.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9369.722843750002,"end":9370.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9370.043468750002,"end":9370.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9370.17846875,"end":9370.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9371.02221875,"end":9371.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9372.996593750002,"end":9375.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9375.831593750001,"end":9375.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9375.899093750002,"end":9376.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9376.152218750001,"end":9376.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9376.18596875,"end":9376.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9376.45596875,"end":9377.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9377.97471875,"end":9378.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9386.445968750002,"end":9390.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9390.192218750002,"end":9391.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9392.38596875,"end":9396.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9396.55409375,"end":9396.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9397.27971875,"end":9400.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9402.61221875,"end":9402.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9402.730343750001,"end":9402.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9402.98346875,"end":9403.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9403.08471875,"end":9406.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9408.45096875,"end":9409.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9409.09221875,"end":9418.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9419.352218750002,"end":9420.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9428.32971875,"end":9429.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9430.202843750001,"end":9430.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9430.82721875,"end":9433.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9434.320343750001,"end":9436.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9437.05409375,"end":9437.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9437.10471875,"end":9445.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9441.40784375,"end":9442.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9443.21346875,"end":9444.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9445.980968750002,"end":9446.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9448.832843750002,"end":9451.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9451.97159375,"end":9452.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9457.118468750003,"end":9457.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9457.152218750001,"end":9458.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9458.13096875,"end":9458.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9483.96659375,"end":9484.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9484.38846875,"end":9484.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9490.429718750001,"end":9492.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9492.977843750003,"end":9493.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9493.72034375,"end":9499.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9499.812218750001,"end":9501.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9501.65159375,"end":9502.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9503.524718750003,"end":9504.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9505.43159375,"end":9509.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9505.95471875,"end":9506.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9507.13596875,"end":9508.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9508.97534375,"end":9509.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9509.160968750002,"end":9509.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9511.01721875,"end":9513.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9513.07596875,"end":9513.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9513.34596875,"end":9513.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9514.965968750003,"end":9515.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9515.62409375,"end":9515.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9516.315968750001,"end":9516.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9516.41721875,"end":9516.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9516.61971875,"end":9520.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9522.812843750002,"end":9522.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9522.964718750001,"end":9523.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9533.190968750001,"end":9534.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9535.620968750001,"end":9536.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9537.12284375,"end":9540.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9547.804718750001,"end":9550.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9552.32721875,"end":9555.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9565.101593750001,"end":9569.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9570.535343750002,"end":9570.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9571.41284375,"end":9573.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9574.433468750001,"end":9588.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9588.91221875,"end":9622.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9622.746593750002,"end":9623.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9623.50596875,"end":9679.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9679.46346875,"end":9686.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9686.719718750002,"end":9732.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9732.61971875,"end":9753.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9753.13971875,"end":9753.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9753.19034375,"end":9851.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9854.32221875,"end":9884.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9885.54096875,"end":9898.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9898.34909375,"end":9915.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9915.86534375,"end":9918.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9919.24034375,"end":9932.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9935.625968750002,"end":9947.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9948.88971875,"end":9948.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9948.94034375,"end":9978.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9978.84284375,"end":9980.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9980.969093750002,"end":10019.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10019.49471875,"end":10019.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10020.355343750001,"end":10023.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10025.45159375,"end":10027.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10028.35409375,"end":10028.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10029.07971875,"end":10054.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10054.78034375,"end":10055.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10056.55221875,"end":10065.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10065.765968750002,"end":10068.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10069.191593750002,"end":10070.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10070.659718750001,"end":10072.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10072.85346875,"end":10073.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10073.933468750001,"end":10075.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10075.13159375,"end":10076.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10077.08909375,"end":10118.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10118.93909375,"end":10129.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10122.246593750002,"end":10122.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10129.80659375,"end":10136.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10136.860343750002,"end":10144.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10145.36534375,"end":10147.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10147.64346875,"end":10148.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10148.95971875,"end":10150.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10150.815968750001,"end":10210.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10211.75159375,"end":10213.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10214.789093750001,"end":10217.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10218.012218750002,"end":10220.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10220.543468750002,"end":10221.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10222.180343750002,"end":10223.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10223.766593750002,"end":10224.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10225.57221875,"end":10226.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10226.83784375,"end":10228.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10228.62659375,"end":10230.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10230.938468750002,"end":10232.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10233.840968750003,"end":10235.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10235.64659375,"end":10236.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10237.148468750001,"end":10237.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10238.042843750001,"end":10240.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10241.265968750002,"end":10250.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10250.547218750002,"end":10253.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10254.41159375,"end":10260.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10261.43159375,"end":10264.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10264.65471875,"end":10266.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10266.66284375,"end":10284.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10285.44471875,"end":10330.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10330.905968750001,"end":10331.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10331.445968750002,"end":10333.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10334.230343750001,"end":10364.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10368.21659375,"end":10370.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10371.06846875,"end":10375.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10375.962218750003,"end":10376.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10376.08034375,"end":10381.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10383.42096875,"end":10388.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10394.06909375,"end":10407.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10408.109093750001,"end":10412.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10412.378468750001,"end":10454.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10454.312843750002,"end":10455.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10455.81471875,"end":10459.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10459.746593750002,"end":10483.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10483.45596875,"end":10485.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10489.04159375,"end":10495.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10495.47096875,"end":10532.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10533.16971875,"end":10533.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10534.317218750002,"end":10550.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10550.73659375,"end":10557.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10559.76471875,"end":10591.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10591.742843750002,"end":10594.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10597.98659375,"end":10614.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10614.996593750002,"end":10615.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10615.48596875,"end":10633.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10634.63909375,"end":10635.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10636.140968750002,"end":10636.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10637.28846875,"end":10637.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10639.53284375,"end":10644.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10645.050968750002,"end":10646.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10646.87346875,"end":10647.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10650.45096875,"end":10673.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10674.160343750002,"end":10677.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10678.227218750002,"end":10696.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10696.958468750003,"end":10704.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10706.425343750001,"end":10706.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10706.442218750002,"end":10706.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10708.399718750003,"end":10709.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10710.10409375,"end":10712.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10717.84971875,"end":10735.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10736.10846875,"end":10759.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10759.497218750003,"end":10767.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10761.03284375,"end":10761.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10767.765968750002,"end":10793.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10793.550968750002,"end":10794.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10794.968468750001,"end":10799.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10800.300968750002,"end":10829.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10829.32596875,"end":10884.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10885.50284375,"end":10962.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10965.38909375,"end":10966.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10966.60409375,"end":10969.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10977.40409375,"end":11047.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11050.253468750001,"end":11064.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11065.17096875,"end":11067.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11068.17471875,"end":11073.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11073.945968750002,"end":11081.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11081.97846875,"end":11082.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11082.282218750002,"end":11084.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11085.134093750003,"end":11086.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11088.10409375,"end":11089.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11089.909718750001,"end":11091.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11092.289093750001,"end":11093.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11094.80346875,"end":11095.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11096.42346875,"end":11097.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11098.245968750001,"end":11108.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11109.265343750001,"end":11110.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11111.18909375,"end":11114.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11114.969093750002,"end":11117.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11119.20471875,"end":11123.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11123.777843750002,"end":11136.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11137.56471875,"end":11142.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11154.01784375,"end":11154.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11154.844718750002,"end":11162.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11163.29909375,"end":11165.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11166.083468750003,"end":11166.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11167.821593750003,"end":11168.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11169.120968750001,"end":11172.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11172.917843750001,"end":11177.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11177.37284375,"end":11178.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11178.098468750002,"end":11184.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11184.17346875,"end":11190.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11190.77159375,"end":11197.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11197.36971875,"end":11199.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11200.187843750002,"end":11201.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11203.343468750001,"end":11204.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11204.929718750001,"end":11205.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11205.891593750002,"end":11207.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11208.372218750003,"end":11208.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11208.54096875,"end":11208.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11209.367843750002,"end":11210.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11210.532218750002,"end":11212.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11212.43909375,"end":11214.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11215.25721875,"end":11217.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11217.484718750002,"end":11218.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11219.391593750002,"end":11220.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11221.21409375,"end":11224.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11225.230343750001,"end":11227.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11228.250968750002,"end":11230.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11230.984718750002,"end":11233.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11234.140343750001,"end":11238.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11238.86534375,"end":11240.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11241.531593750002,"end":11243.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11244.40034375,"end":11249.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11249.648468750001,"end":11252.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11252.36534375,"end":11254.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11255.26784375,"end":11258.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11258.727218750002,"end":11259.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11260.39784375,"end":11262.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11262.996593750002,"end":11263.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11265.88221875,"end":11268.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11269.122218750003,"end":11273.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11274.10034375,"end":11275.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11275.602218750002,"end":11279.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11279.48346875,"end":11279.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11279.567843750003,"end":11281.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11282.234093750001,"end":11284.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11284.91721875,"end":11286.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11287.02659375,"end":11288.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11289.203468750002,"end":11289.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11289.97971875,"end":11302.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11302.872218750003,"end":11303.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11303.665343750003,"end":11308.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11308.862843750001,"end":11310.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11310.820343750001,"end":11312.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11313.300968750002,"end":11318.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11318.70096875,"end":11319.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11319.780968750001,"end":11320.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11320.75971875,"end":11321.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11322.12659375,"end":11324.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11325.231593750003,"end":11326.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11326.497218750003,"end":11327.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11327.172218750002,"end":11327.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11327.965343750002,"end":11332.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11332.58909375,"end":11334.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11334.512843750003,"end":11336.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11336.453468750002,"end":11338.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11339.254718750002,"end":11339.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11339.54159375,"end":11340.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11340.942218750002,"end":11341.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11342.29221875,"end":11344.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11345.29596875,"end":11346.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11346.61221875,"end":11346.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11347.253468750001,"end":11348.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11349.261593750001,"end":11351.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11352.19784375,"end":11352.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11353.21034375,"end":11355.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11356.26471875,"end":11361.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11361.85034375,"end":11364.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11364.938468750002,"end":11369.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11369.64659375,"end":11393.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11393.22096875,"end":11396.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11397.102218750002,"end":11401.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11402.215343750002,"end":11406.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11406.974093750003,"end":11412.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11412.74534375,"end":11414.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11414.31471875,"end":11419.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11419.64721875,"end":11419.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11419.79909375,"end":11429.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11429.738468750002,"end":11437.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11438.56409375,"end":11446.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11446.191593750002,"end":11452.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11447.17034375,"end":11447.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11447.187218750001,"end":11447.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11447.27159375,"end":11447.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11450.37659375,"end":11451.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11452.992218750001,"end":11464.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11464.78784375,"end":11471.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11473.00596875,"end":11475.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11475.63846875,"end":11477.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11478.33846875,"end":11491.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11492.95221875,"end":11495.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11496.69846875,"end":11501.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11501.997218750003,"end":11509.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11509.641593750002,"end":11519.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11519.93534375,"end":11522.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11523.141593750002,"end":11523.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11524.94721875,"end":11526.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11526.22971875,"end":11526.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11529.38534375,"end":11533.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11540.067218750002,"end":11580.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11580.75284375,"end":11590.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11590.50659375,"end":11727.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11728.274093750002,"end":11734.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11736.10409375,"end":11738.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11738.297843750002,"end":11740.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11741.68971875,"end":11744.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11756.640968750002,"end":11761.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11762.024093750002,"end":11767.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11767.390343750001,"end":11771.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11771.676593750002,"end":11777.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11777.852843750003,"end":11780.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11781.210968750001,"end":11806.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11806.23659375,"end":11808.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11809.39221875,"end":11809.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11810.20221875,"end":11815.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11815.973468750002,"end":11817.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11817.67784375,"end":11819.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11819.871593750002,"end":11825.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11825.305343750002,"end":11828.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11828.157218750002,"end":11837.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11837.472218750001,"end":11838.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11839.71659375,"end":11841.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11843.14221875,"end":11849.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11849.520968750003,"end":11854.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11854.33034375,"end":11855.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11857.38471875,"end":11858.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11860.60784375,"end":11869.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11869.78784375,"end":11871.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11871.914093750001,"end":11873.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11874.68159375,"end":11888.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11888.789093750001,"end":11893.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11894.020343750002,"end":11897.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11897.749718750001,"end":11902.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11903.082218750002,"end":11909.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11909.359718750002,"end":11909.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11910.422843750002,"end":11919.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11938.519718750002,"end":11939.144093750001}],"whisperx":[{"start":466.79,"end":468.195,"text":"至少只能一倍招票"},{"start":2072.507,"end":2074.648,"text":"好,各位就定位"},{"start":2088.632,"end":2115.709,"text":"我們現在公聽會會議開始我們的程序第一個我們現在開始開會各位知道這個是正式的立法院的公聽會所以是錄音錄影的各位講的每一句話十年後都還可以調出來看所以大家花眼謹慎一點不要做人生的攻擊這個是一點意義都沒有我們今天"},{"start":2116.994,"end":2141.223,"text":"本會舉行依司法實行細則公聽會謝謝各位寫者專家及各政府機關代表蒞臨指教本次公聽會探討的議題以提綱為準請自行參議那我們現在先介紹在場的委員我們陳昭志委員"},{"start":2144.557,"end":2162.128,"text":"王振旭委員學者專家我從簽到的先後比較尊重第一位台北醫學大學公衛學系教授邱鴻毅"},{"start":2164.065,"end":2190.138,"text":"好 謝謝歡迎 那也是我們國會院的第一位是簡志成醫師好 歡迎第三位是中華牙醫學會理事長張玉超教授第四位是中華民國醫師公會全國聯合會醫療政策委員會召委吳國志理事長"},{"start":2192.981,"end":2200.626,"text":"第五位是台灣牙醫學教育學會理事長杜哲光再來是台灣醫院學會法規委員會委員吳敏燕歡迎歡迎她也是我們私立醫療院所學會的秘書長第七位是新北市牙醫師公會"},{"start":2222.346,"end":2227.328,"text":"張彬璇醫師中華民國醫療醫師公會全聯會法治副主委盧彥成"},{"start":2242.603,"end":2256.791,"text":"好 歡迎 歡迎我在高鐵上的牙醫師全聯會的人跟我談齁我 糟糕了喔 大家都用別的本土小牙醫人盟召集人黃應齊好 歡迎還 再來是"},{"start":2264.369,"end":2290.296,"text":"林宮凱醫師台灣基層牙醫師協會理事長姚欣儀歡迎 歡迎國立延民交通大學牙醫學系教授林延敏 歡迎"},{"start":2294.093,"end":2321.824,"text":"高雄牙醫師公會理事長蔡正峰好繼續介紹等一下來的我們再補介紹介紹我們行政官員衛生福利部常務次長周志浩醫事師師長劉業平口腔健康師師長張永敏"},{"start":2326.411,"end":2349.984,"text":"考選部專技考試師師長黃慶章歡迎 歡迎等一下還有一個醫事人員的考試篇地要找你討論我們考選部參議參研室研究委員黃立賢歡迎教育部高教師師長廖高賢歡迎"},{"start":2352.543,"end":2362.171,"text":"外交部領事事務局文件證明組副組長史詩惠謝謝 歡迎 歡迎好請衛務部先報告接下來這個是請衛務部要先報告報告五分鐘 來 市長請"},{"start":2381.284,"end":2397.635,"text":"召集人兩位委員以及各位專家那接下來由衛福部請就今天的公聽會做一個口頭的簡要的一個報告那這裡面我們還是依照這裡面公聽會的三個提綱來進行摘要的說明首先是醫事證書合法與學歷財政的部分"},{"start":2398.956,"end":2410.671,"text":"這裡面我們從民國91年開始陸續來修訂醫師法等等我們現在主要的作業是依照醫師法裡面110年修訂的醫師法第四條之一的規定來這些的辦理其後我們也在113年11月25號的時候發布修正醫師法實行細則"},{"start":2416.197,"end":2438.918,"text":"總共25條全文修正了那這裡面修正的主要內容是主要把國外大學或學院醫學系科學歷採認原則納到醫師法的提升位階納到醫師法的施行細則當中提升它的法律位階至於說外界對這醫師法施行細則裡面有很多的一些的指導跟不太了解的地方"},{"start":2439.338,"end":2463.248,"text":"那我們都透過多方的管道來解釋說明那直接面對的就至少四次五次那新聞稿那同時也發布新聞稿那盡量的來做一個說明那這新聞稿各位可以上衛福部的網站來做這進一步的了解那另外有關於實習名額及偏鄉醫療計畫的部分那國外牙醫系的這些的畢業臨床實作訓練的分發名額從103年開始到114年每年都是維持50名"},{"start":2469.29,"end":2498.87,"text":"我們並沒有來提高另外因為還有一些地區的醫療資源並不足所以說我們提出了優化偏鄉醫療精進計畫第二期它原先所提的計畫在行政院請我們暫緩實施之外也要求我們做計畫的一個修正現在我們已經把修正計畫送到行政院行政院還正在審議當中至於有關於醫療人力供需的部分的話我們每一年都會委託國務院來進行醫事人員的供需的評估"},{"start":2499.39,"end":2519.518,"text":"目前的結果顯示護理人員、營養師、心理師、語言治療師及聽力師五類的醫師人力是比較不夠的醫師、牙醫師等10個人力雖然是充足但是它的分布存在不均的一個問題此外為了提升醫療人力與穩定的這些服務量我們也提出了健康台灣生根的計畫鼓勵醫療機構"},{"start":2522.579,"end":2551.523,"text":"優化工作的條件 制定人力留任的策略然後促進跨域領域合作 希望藉以維護甚至是提升醫療的品質我們承蒙委員會的這些 以及各位委員跟我們很多的監督以及指教在此盡致謝誠同時今天我們也會虛心的聆聽各界給予關於醫師法施行細則這方面的一個指導我們也會仔細的聆聽加以評估 謝謝大家"},{"start":2554.856,"end":2578.055,"text":"謝謝市長那本次會議部會及學者專家所提供之相關書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那在發言之前先宣告以下事項學者專家及本院委員每位發言時間6分鐘"},{"start":2584.896,"end":2612.143,"text":"為簡報方便學者專家發言請至主席台右邊就這邊這邊的發言台原則上學者專家依簽到順序發言如言如要發言請到主席台登記這邊可以登記全部人員發言完畢後請在行政機關做整體的回應讓我們暫定10點半左右休息10分鐘"},{"start":2613.263,"end":2631.347,"text":"那各位有要直播的我建議不要做因為我們立法院本身現在就在做直播那你個人在發言的時候你要怎麼錄影那是尊重好我們現在請登記第一位邱鴻毅教授發言"},{"start":2643.067,"end":2656.907,"text":"主席委員還有各位學術專家還有師俗的長官們大家早我今天的身份我是有兩個身份一個是台北醫學大學的國衛系教授另外一位我也是國衛院的群建所的所長"},{"start":2657.908,"end":2680.574,"text":"所以剛剛次長所報告的一些人力的這些數據的分析這樣來講的話基本上台灣的醫事人力特別來講的話大致上如次長所說的那幾個部分是有它的不足的部分那大部分還是在比較是不均的部分那我舉像牙醫師的例子為例我們牙醫師的話整體"},{"start":2683.095,"end":2711.876,"text":"overall到2030年來講我們現在的推估有10年就是10年為一起那我們推估的方法就是以每一年我們可以畢業的學生以及他考取資照的比例以及考取之後的這樣的他的這個所謂的他去執行的這個部分當作是供給那當然有些會退休離開所以好像一個大水口這樣就是每年有水進來但是會有一些退休出去那"},{"start":2712.256,"end":2734.691,"text":"另外一個就是我們怎麼去看需求就是從健保可以提供的我們包括醫牙藥它每年有多少民眾需要看這些數據看這些需要的需求此外有些項目是健保拿不到比如說自費有些比較細節的美港那這個就是很謝謝各位醫師公會還有牙醫師公會裡面所提供的問卷調查之後去看看"},{"start":2735.231,"end":2758.87,"text":"那我們把這樣的一個需求以及每一個醫師可以provide他的每一週他能夠提供的這個工時我們做了平均之後舉例來講比如說一個醫師一週可以有30多個小時平均來看的話這叫做一個所謂的等量工時單位所以我不是用人次我是用等量工時單位來估這時候你就知道說我的需求這麼大我的供給這麼大"},{"start":2759.571,"end":2779.303,"text":"我去看那我們就看說不同的區域裡面他的缺額或者他有足額來看那一般來分析裡面會把醫院層級分成醫中地區區域以及診所那舉個例子來講像亞醫師的話overall來看的話跟醫事人員一樣我們可以普遍看得到就是"},{"start":2780.043,"end":2806.312,"text":"像醫療人員的critical care因為他有身兼以及很多工作的方式在越高等級的醫中的等級裡面他確實隨著這2030年的到來他的整個人力的需求是慢慢缺口變大的變大的可是到診所的部分來講反而是現在略微有一點點缺口大概這一兩三年可是在未來的五到十年他是增長也就是都老過幾次for example 比如說像亞醫師的話大概九成都在診所"},{"start":2807.452,"end":2828.722,"text":"他都到診所去那這是普遍的現象就是從比較需要重症治療的這個高level的醫院他會慢慢到這個primary care那邊去那當然這個有很多原因另外在醫中的部分也因為任務因為升遷還有現在很多大家討論這些不同的因素的牽扯拉過去了那第二件事情就是"},{"start":2829.662,"end":2849.441,"text":"台灣現在看起來就是我們的那個醫療還是不均為主也就是雖然overall是夠可是呢就是不換寡而換不均就是偏鄉的部分確實有很多地區它的你如果用這個需求跟供給去退的話它是不足的就在偏鄉這一塊確實是需要用政策上面來做一些調整那"},{"start":2850.282,"end":2878.348,"text":"特別我們有做過一些研究就是越年輕的人他如果要離職的話大概在醫中醫院離職率的醫院高高遠他說他要到診所去而診所要離職的大部分都是我要退休了要退休那我們這樣的需求基本上也有考慮到譬如說在五六十歲以前的他的基本上的在職率都八九成以醫事人員來看可是年紀變大之後呢他的這個在職率就逐漸下降那"},{"start":2879.068,"end":2902.723,"text":"男生跟女生來講男生的在職率是比較長的女生在職率是比較短的所以我們綜合考量這些因素裡面overall的整體結論來看就是臺灣的除了像醫護這些人員來講他的人力是不足的還是有些不足的部分就剛剛次長講的那幾個那其他有充足的部分他是不均的那像牙醫師的人力也是一樣就是他確實現在"},{"start":2904.184,"end":2926.241,"text":"overall來看它是夠 可是就是偏向大家知道在就醫治療的情況之下你可能需要用政策上面的協調才有可能讓那些不均的地區它能夠有一些亞伊斯的幫忙所以我想這個醫師法的修正裡面應該是在策略上面能夠讓這個不均的現象能夠有效的改善"},{"start":2927.021,"end":2938.284,"text":"這才是最重要的目的那所以從我們做研究跟實證的立場來看的話目前所做的目前的數據大概是這樣子也跟主席跟大家做一個報告以上 謝謝謝謝 謝謝邱教授那繼續我們請簡志成醫師發言"},{"start":2955.76,"end":2981.562,"text":"主席 各位與會的貴賓大家好我是簡志成那目前我講可以講出來的身份應該是我是29屆的醫療奉獻獎得主所以說基本上來講我在偏鄉、深藏這一塊的領域是都有在從事我從大概93、94年我們健保開始有偏鄉跟深藏的專案我們就一直從事在這裡面所以這個部分會有些了解"},{"start":2982.122,"end":3011.622,"text":"那的確這是依司法實行細則的一些修改造成了很多的討論我想我們在網路上也知道了很多那我這就針對就我了解的牙醫的部分稍微做一個說明是說我想第一點就是大家都一直對說原細則沒有的就所謂的新增當地政府認證這條在講嘛但是我想這個一些東西應該是要整體來看因為這個部分並不是只是指加這個而是說他還要回歸到我們的"},{"start":3013.504,"end":3019.53,"text":"國外財政認證辦法12條還有第4條第9條規定裡面就已經有這些東西都是要教育部認可的"},{"start":3020.502,"end":3047.441,"text":"並不是只有一個當地政府認可就可以還要回歸到母法去我想細則還是要回歸到母法去這樣的一個情況所以這個只是把它的認可的情況把它更符合現狀的去做一個說明這樣而已並不是說大家擔心的單純只要國外認證我們就可以認同這樣的一個情況這些是必須要跟大家報告一下這樣的一個情況而且長征也有寫到一些落日條款這樣的一個狀況那再來就是"},{"start":3048.442,"end":3064.29,"text":"他們有說有把遠距教學這些納進去我想這個不是針對牙科而是針對前幾年大家都知道的COVID-19我想這個重大變故不是只有台灣全世界都這樣我想那時候才會有所謂的以往我們大家的開會都是面對面實體開會"},{"start":3066.209,"end":3095.091,"text":"但是那時候才開始有視訊會議才可以有視訊教學才可以有這個因為那個的確是沒有辦法有適當的人與人的接觸所以只是把這個東西寫進去而且不是針對說牙科才可以遠距教學其他都不行也不是這樣是所有的遇到這種情況那在這個情況當然是要主管機關認定也不是我們單方面說我今天說我今天可能身體不是或得了重大疾病或者說我就不能去我這就叫重這也不是也是要政府主管機關來認定的而且它也不是"},{"start":3095.991,"end":3115.765,"text":"所有的學分都可以當見習就是遠距就可以這樣的情況但是我規定有些像我們以牙科來講有些還是要實作嘛總不能看病人我還遠距看因為就像之前我們在健保我們常常在抱怨的是一顆都遠距可以看著牙科不行啊牙科即使你牙痛我看了你一眼你也不會好"},{"start":3116.724,"end":3127.936,"text":"還是要實際操作所以牙科那時候看診都要全副武裝這樣的一個情況所以我想說有些實際上要操作的層面還是沒有辦法用類似遠距等等這樣來取代的一個狀況跟大家報告一下"},{"start":3130.373,"end":3155.195,"text":"那再來大家有會覺得見習是不是寫進去我想以牙科的訓練來講不管國內外不管哪裡大家都知道見習絕對不會是牙科訓練的一部就它是可能是一部分但不是唯一牙醫還是必須要實作我想不管在任何的地方不管是任何的國家任何的場域牙科還是必須要實作而且我們的法面也寫臨床門也寫講我們就是要實際去操作"},{"start":3156.036,"end":3178.315,"text":"那才叫實習並不是這樣的一個情況這樣子跟大家講一下那另外還要討論到我想牙科界討論很久的OSCE臨床實際技能操作我想目前在一階國考二階國考都沒有這個項目目前有的是國內生在大五要升大六要去實習之前因為他還沒有接觸到患者接觸到進入臨床的時候有做一個這部分的測驗"},{"start":3179.176,"end":3190.869,"text":"那至於這個OSCE以後要不要列入國家考試我想這是另外的一個層面 另外一個問題並不是這樣的一個情況那國際生回來的話 基本上他們跟國內生比較不一樣的是他們說國外已經畢業了"},{"start":3192.603,"end":3207.312,"text":"甚至領有當地的執照所以他們是國外已經實習了那他們回來做的是臨床適應訓練因為可能不知道台灣的生活環境包括健保體系包括這些情況所以他們必須要一年的臨床適應訓練我想現在在排的叫做臨床適應訓練不是實習是臨床適應訓練"},{"start":3210.515,"end":3228.076,"text":"所以這個部分來講是不是跟這個的情況有相同我想這個是必須要這樣的一個情況而且我記得那年在我們大家牙科常在講的關門條件講已經講了112年之後入學的他就是一定要回來教考那個學歷增次"},{"start":3229.694,"end":3239.278,"text":"這已經寫好不管你從哪邊來不管你有什麼東西不管你領有執照沒有領有執照都要考學歷增試所以這個部分已經有一個這樣的一個情況112年1月1號以後回來不管你從哪邊回來的"},{"start":3242.574,"end":3268.421,"text":"都要考學歷增試 我想這是已經都已經明文寫好了這樣的一個情況我想這是針對今天事情修行細則的一個說明這樣的一個概況另外這裡我也要呼籲一下之前我有領巨名在那個國發會的平台發起的那個偏鄉精進專案的連署超過了一萬兩千個認同理論上我們超過五千就要執行了啦但一萬二我不知道夠不夠啦"},{"start":3269.406,"end":3288.016,"text":"以目前來講 不管是各個場所 不管是公聽會 不管是遊行 不管是連署 不管是什麼我想這一萬二的名義是最高的一個名義啦不管你是上街度 或者這一萬二 大家願意 而且是郡民按照這應該是這樣的情況我想會建議去落實這樣的情況 因為"},{"start":3289.38,"end":3309.974,"text":"不好意思跟主席報告一下本來今天是沒有在這邊因為今天是我們牙醫總額健保的參訪現在應該是準備要去烏來的衛生所然後明天要去宜蘭的身障機構因為有這個會議必須要來開等一下開完還需要趕去烏來跟宜蘭但我們每年在講偏鄉人力不夠身障人力不夠這個是牙醫碰到的一個問題"},{"start":3311.468,"end":3325.173,"text":"之前已經在很多場合都提過了我們全國大概目前有1萬6千名牙醫師大概統計這是最精準我先不要講說來上過我們的課或怎樣的有多少人直接實際在操作身心障礙的大概11%偏鄉800多位所以以我桃園來講復興鄉旁邊就大溪觀光很多進去的復興鄉是零牙醫"},{"start":3335.689,"end":3358.565,"text":"對 所以山上看診要山下來然後還有我們上山去做這些情況我想這些東西都是反映現在的確有醫療不平均的情況我想我們秉持的一個狀況就是病人優先 弱勢優先 品質優先是我們一直在寵醫一直要求的這些情況那是不是也應該去照顧到這些人他們這些人也同樣皆有健保費 同樣也有平權"},{"start":3359.943,"end":3389.635,"text":"那是不是現在我們要去照顧到大家但是我們也不能說影響到大家的就業意願嘛因為我們常講就那個不是對不起就業意願他願意在哪職業願意在哪那些東西所以我們需要一些方案去誘使這些來參加今天我們當然很歡迎我們台灣畢業本土人的一起來但這從92 93到現在這麼多年我們的努力之下可能還未真人意努力在做曾經在南投有醫師就講十年前他是最年輕的十年後還是最年輕的"},{"start":3392.535,"end":3419.994,"text":"代表什麼人力並沒有流到那邊去難道附近沒有台中大台中彰化這些地方嗎但是還是還是流不過去我想這些都是需要去我們努力的地方那當然這也我必須講我們在從事任何推動任何計畫的時候一定要符合法規這是一定的所以不管在推動任何方案包括之前我們在推動偏鄉精英方案很多人在講是不是替國外牙醫國際生去做這些事情我想並不是"},{"start":3423.519,"end":3428.624,"text":"我小朋友在西班牙讀書這個一直以都是這樣子但是不好意思"},{"start":3430.834,"end":3459.717,"text":"但是不好意思我這主席不好意思可以讓我說明一下因為今天我問了我就說明一下我小朋友是去西班牙讀沒有錯他當初在大學聯考那年108課綱他錄取的是成大機械後來他考慮了一下他說他還是想要跟我唸因為他國中就被我帶去菲律賓做譯者他覺得他想跟我一樣但是兩個選擇補習班或出去我想這在當時都是符合政府規定的那這時候他覺得他"},{"start":3460.638,"end":3488.021,"text":"可能不適應補習班的生活所以他決定他即使註冊他還是決定他要出去念那時候去西班牙念書我想這都知道甚至我想也謝謝大家替我宣傳網路上現在大概沒有人不知道我小孩叫什麼名字我只是不知道一個在學生的名字被公布到這麼徹底是好還是不好啦這樣的一個情況那再來就是他現在還沒有回來他現在才大四所以我很多在講我推動他也不是在排隊的waiting list講白一點他以後會不會回來我也不知道"},{"start":3489.059,"end":3515.451,"text":"因為這個東西是小孩的志 我想很多家長都是一樣不管是醫科 牙科 或者是其他各科出國讀書的都有選擇在外地直接或回來的情況現在我們只想說這些都是台灣出生的 領有中華民國身份證的遵照政府指令去讀政府核可學校的現在只是要一條他們可以合法回來的路那為什麼自己人要迫害自己人"},{"start":3516.854,"end":3531.662,"text":"大家都是為這些人在服務啊我們並沒有再去做一些其他的情況對不對那大家想到的辦法是說偏鄉如果努力二十幾年本土的醫師不去那我們是不是可以開放讓有意願合格的醫師我正在強調合格的牙醫師"},{"start":3534.659,"end":3552.588,"text":"前往我想這是大家所鼓勵的政策不外乎獎勵或者一些規定這樣的一個情況我想在這很多各行各業都有像一些教師也是你需要一些積分你就要去下鄉服務我想這在各行各業都有這樣的一個情況我們只是提供這些東西出來讓大家知道"},{"start":3553.348,"end":3566.237,"text":"另外這裡我也要真正說明一下我這裡只敢用醫療奉獻獎來講我沒有任何其他的職務來講就是我並不是用我其他的身份來做這件事情以上 不好意思耽誤大家時間 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝簡醫師那繼續由陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":3580.84,"end":3607.699,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝蘇昭偉今天願意舉辦這個公聽會讓各界有機會針對醫師法實行細則的修正案再一次進行對話跟釐清我知道這幾年關於這個國外醫學生的這個爭議在社群跟輿論間不斷的升高這個爭議不斷的升高我可以理解國內醫療學生的焦慮"},{"start":3608.779,"end":3613.182,"text":"當然我也看到國外ER學生面對制度的變動面對資格的不確定這樣的無力感那我要先提醒大家就是今天這些對立的現象其實是制度缺陷的一個產物它不是任何人的錯"},{"start":3629.83,"end":3648.558,"text":"這是制度缺陷的一個產物那我覺得唯一不能躲的就是政府政府是責無旁貸尤其是這個衛福部當你的規範比較曖昧當你的審查標準不清楚的時候當你的資訊揭露不完整的時候很容易造成大家的誤解"},{"start":3649.258,"end":3654.999,"text":"甚至演變成貼標籤跟群體的攻擊我覺得這不是我們台灣社會所樂見的啦這樣也沒辦法幫助有助於這個台灣這個醫療體系的一個健全那這一次衛福部希望能夠提升規範的這個衛接這本來是一件好事情就政策面來說那修法的內容有一些會讓各界產生疑慮啦那我是希望衛福部能夠好好是正式面對"},{"start":3677.825,"end":3682.506,"text":"不是不能修法但是這些疑慮必須好好的去正式面對剛剛也有專家學者有提到因為大家第一個就是會問你採認的標準是不是透明一致我覺得透明跟一致這兩個字兩個字詞是一樣的重要那目前條文是把這個教育部參考名冊跟"},{"start":3698.45,"end":3702.874,"text":"當地政府或教育評鑑團體也是當地的教育評鑑團體認可可以並列作為學校認定的依據但是社會大眾就會比較好奇說那這些認定機關因為國家現在很多那認定機關當中是不是有具備跟台灣跟我國相當的一個公信力跟審查制度如果這個是比較相當的那大家的信服力就會比較高"},{"start":3725.191,"end":3728.693,"text":"這個是第一個很重要的這個疑點就是加上當地政府跟當地的教育評鑑團體所認可這個部分是這個爭議點之一我也向衛福部好好正式面對那第二個剛剛也有人提到這個遠距教學跟實習品質的監督的這個問題機制我們知道在防疫或是面對重大災難的時候這個部分允許"},{"start":3749.306,"end":3775.185,"text":"部分遠距教學這個是一定可以理解的但是因為我們今天面臨的是醫學醫學是一個尤其是臨床醫學它是一個實作的環境那是不是包括遠距教學是不是可以包括臨床實作那有沒有配套的一些補救不是不行但是你有沒有配套的補救機制這個衛福部也是要講清楚"},{"start":3776.105,"end":3780.448,"text":"因為這個提出來那就是說要正視這樣的一個問題那第三個剛剛也有人提到就是說見習跟實習我們過去的定義是clugship一個是internship一個是part一個是看一個是實作那這個部分如果說我們把這個實習的時數合併計算的時候那我們只是要問就是說那這樣有沒有確保他的這個臨床的"},{"start":3802.262,"end":3809.026,"text":"能力維持臨床能力的這個標準是不是有達到那這個部分也要請主管機關是不是能夠清楚說明就是你怎麼去當他合併的時候你怎麼去評估學習成果跟實際操作能力你要有這樣的一個證明標準我想這幾點的這個質疑基本上就是說是存在的那我也要提醒在座的委員們我們是有責任來確保整個制度的設計能夠經得起考驗"},{"start":3830.879,"end":3856.916,"text":"制度要經得起考驗就是說它不是只保障國人的健康安全當然我們要保障所有學生在一個比較公平競爭下取得的一個職業資格的正當程序那很遺憾這一年多來我看到醫藥界衛福部責任重大醫藥界整個困境醫師人力分布不均其實整個醫療人力也是這樣子性騷醜聞頻繁連最基本的生理食鹽水都需要從國外專案進口沒有執照沒有茶廠的這個產品"},{"start":3860.759,"end":3878.466,"text":"那雖然我們今天是討論這個醫師法的實行細則但是我覺得衛福部真的要多加油啊而且很多事你要溝通你要說明你要檢討你要面對那當然我們要導致這個情況就是要繼續往前走建立一套涵蓋入學"},{"start":3880.315,"end":3896.835,"text":"訓練考核到職業的品質是不是能夠很完整的評估的制度那不只是醫師牙醫師取得執照之後就覺得他們一輩子我們從來沒有這種想包括我自己是藥師就是好醫師好藥師那目前是只靠的繼續教育的學分可能是不夠的"},{"start":3898.136,"end":3920.066,"text":"因為雖然我們很驕傲醫學是台灣第一個領域有繼續學分的這樣不會說照考試就是終身適用但是現在顯然是不太足夠了因為對於隨著醫學的進步然後隨著人民的期待這個部分可能衛福部也要討論也要好好的檢討衛福部真的有責任有義務跟大家好好去對話建立合理的制度"},{"start":3920.586,"end":3943.044,"text":"所以我也期盼這個主管機關今天在座還有其他主管機關能夠在聽取各方的意見之後對於我們關切的一些爭議點爭議點要提出明確的解釋說明還有你改善的方向這個就是法公佈之後大家要做的事情我們希望讓學歷採任制度能夠是公平透明的方向來前進好 謝謝"},{"start":3945.507,"end":3955.968,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員很用心來 接續我們請張玉超中華牙醫學會理事長發言"},{"start":3965.685,"end":3992.418,"text":"召委兩位立委還有那個那個政府的那個長官還有各位與會的大家好那我是張玉超那目前是中華亞醫學會理事長那另外本身也是在那個中山醫學大學亞醫系服務那也歷任過系主任還有那個口腔醫學院院長等行政職務所以說今天想就"},{"start":3994.783,"end":4002.422,"text":"三個提綱分別做個報告那首先的話就是針對在那個"},{"start":4003.803,"end":4025.788,"text":"那個整個牙醫養成教育的話事實上在台灣醫師職類的養成教育事實上是非常完整的從以前的教考用現在在很早以前都已經變成一個教考訓用這打造了一個那個台灣在醫療上面這是一個不容忽視的一股力量"},{"start":4026.748,"end":4043.478,"text":"至於說在一些學歷採證的方面事實上今天我們召委非常夠力把相關的部會的長官都邀請到這個公聽會上面來因為學歷認證的採證基本上是在教育部裡面"},{"start":4046.619,"end":4066.371,"text":"醫師跟醫事職類在台灣的教育裡面他在實習那一年 事實上他上面有很多公公婆婆我們才有辦法拿到一個所謂的那個醫師的職業的證照那首先必須要教育部認可他是一個具有Qualified的然後還要經過到考選部"},{"start":4067.953,"end":4094.076,"text":"來做那個考試拿到那個牙醫師或是醫師證書之後再跟衛福部然後去換證這個是整個目前台灣的那個現況流程所以說一個完整的醫師或牙醫師的養成教育目前來講都是所謂6加2那個醫學系的學制是6年牙醫系的學制也是6年那後面兩年的PGY"},{"start":4094.896,"end":4099.479,"text":"就是等於是讓他變成一個負責醫師的一個完整的訓練所以這是在台灣一個完整的養成訓練的過程"},{"start":4104.622,"end":4131.859,"text":"那至於說在有關於外國的學歷採證的話那事實上教育部也都有背上一些法規來做一些辦理就會依據教育部的那個學歷採證辦法那不符合那個學歷採證標準的話他會去做一個學歷的那個檢核考試那這一塊當然是由那個教育部上面去做一個負責那做個把關那教育部"},{"start":4132.579,"end":4159.394,"text":"大家可以看到事實上教育部每年都based on這一個然後請大概都是所謂的公立的一些老師們來負責這些學歷認證的業務那完了之後他當然就會就可以進入到台灣的那個國考系統那這時候我們的那個考試院這時候就一樣也會有一些專家學者大概大部分也都是一定都是國立的老師啦"},{"start":4160.434,"end":4185.776,"text":"然後做一些學歷認證的考核的辦法看這個學生到底是不是Qualify那Qualify之後大概就是可以進入所謂的第一階段的國考然後在考過了之後然後進入所謂的適應訓練因為那個整個醫師的養成跟其他可能比較不一樣因為這個要"},{"start":4188.298,"end":4211.934,"text":"相對的那個一人五還是文化的背景是不一樣的所以說就會有一年的所謂的實習訓練的這個運作那當然外交部也扮演一個很重要的立場在這些學歷認證的話都要外管去幫忙做一些認證那包括說像我們在聘請國外教員的時候也會去調外交部的出入境紀錄"},{"start":4212.714,"end":4238.315,"text":"那適不適合符合台灣Qualified的標準他會看他的實際的出入境的紀錄時間來看那這個是有關於目前國內我國在那個學歷採證還有一些ER的養成教育大概是這個樣子那第二個我們談到所謂的實習名額那以目前實習名額來跟各位報告的話以"},{"start":4240.543,"end":4241.926,"text":"教學院的評鑑條文來講目前的實習容額是夠的因為5.4教學院評鑑條文5.4實習"},{"start":4251.397,"end":4275.235,"text":"等於是那個intern的部分比例是1比4那當然這幾年會更加優化在醫學中心我們要拉到所謂的優良的階段你的那個生死比要拉到1比2那PGY的話當然就是1比1專訓的話是1比0.5那這個是目前我們在實習容額上面看到的"},{"start":4275.885,"end":4292.406,"text":"那至於說在那個偏鄉的部分那事實上整個台灣的話亞伊斯人力事實上是沒有說不足的現象那大概都是在一個分配不均的一個過程那至於說如何"},{"start":4293.737,"end":4321.407,"text":"如何改善偏鄉醫療資源的缺乏那事實上政府各單位也都有一些政策來做一些相對的因應可能目前的現況還是不足譬如說那個部裡面會有一些在地或是公費生的養成那甚至教育部也會offer一些離島還有一些那一些等於外加的名額讓這些原鄉子弟也有機會去進入這個門檻那"},{"start":4323.288,"end":4342.114,"text":"但是如何讓他們日後能夠留鄉繼續做服務那這可能大家要再進一步的規範制定那以上就這些跟各位報告 謝謝謝謝張理事長那接下來我們請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":4360.058,"end":4375.593,"text":"謝謝主席各位專家學者還有趙志偉委員首先真的很樂見今天蘇趙偉特別安排了這個依司法施行細則修正草案的公聽會讓我們可以公開透明"},{"start":4376.567,"end":4395.428,"text":"纳入公民的参与广纳意见进行充分的讨论跟社会沟通刚刚也听了很多专家学者针对于在这个过程里面希望能够提供建言给我们的主管机关做重要的参考那本次医师法的施行细则的修正"},{"start":4396.289,"end":4425.561,"text":"是針對近年來持外國醫學跟牙醫學歷回國參加考試的人數啊真的是在攀升當中融合好像是會受到一些影響那基於維持國內醫師人力培育制度及規劃的完整性將相關的審查機制明確提升到法律位階這就是我們透過今天在這個修正過程當中希望能夠持續去探討的地方那在方向上入法"},{"start":4426.482,"end":4445.671,"text":"規範就是強化醫療品質跟病人安全並回應全球醫學教育流動性重要的一步啊所以我們也知道其實這是希望能夠讓整體的制度可以更為完整不過招式委員剛才提到如果讓透明啊一致性也要從此來維持"},{"start":4446.872,"end":4462.632,"text":"那其實醫療不是考試制度的產物醫療本身的重點絕對不是考試本身而是要信任跟訓練的成果這樣才有辦法對台灣民眾的健康跟他的醫療的成果可以得到一個好的呈現"},{"start":4465.115,"end":4481.307,"text":"從這個維持醫療品質出發相關制度的設計必須要有重要的三點第一個就是醫療人力的穩定發展那第二個就是要品質的安全保障第三個就是一定要有病患的信任反正若不相信你還要亂搞也沒用"},{"start":4482.308,"end":4502.617,"text":"所以一定要把自己做好同時也要取得這個變化的信任那這個三者之間要取得平衡所以本席期待相關的修法都可以同步往這個三個目標來持續的邁進那這份細則草案可以看到衛護在制度上強化的努力剛剛我們次長也跟大家做了報告那如果從維護穩定醫療品質的根本出發"},{"start":4506.379,"end":4526.653,"text":"還是要回歸到原本醫師的總量管制醫療本身其實是成本很高的一個訓練過程當中的產物所以這個總量管制還是它有一個重要的一個部分那這樣才能作為長遠規劃的起點所以以下我們提出一些補充意見"},{"start":4527.614,"end":4550.843,"text":"跟提醒能夠引發社會各界進一步的思考跟討論第一點就是總量管制的一致性首先我們希望提醒衛福部這邊就是臨床訓練的資源真的很珍貴也很有限包括師資、設備、儀器以及病例數等所以才會有醫師人力的這個總量管控的機制"},{"start":4552.023,"end":4576.035,"text":"以免訓練的量能不足而危害到未來的醫療品質那以目前的牙醫系為例的話目前國內每一年招生名額是391名這391名裡面就包括一般招生371名國防醫學20名那歷年來都是依照這個臨床訓練資源病患數量及教學醫院的容量等條件來進行細緻的這個總額總量規劃那像在108年的時候那成大"},{"start":4581.218,"end":4604.975,"text":"的醫學政策的這個牙醫學系也就是在其他學校檢照之下才能夠成立確保總額的不變這個大家都很清楚那不僅是醫療資源的分配問題就是對醫學生訓練品質的基本保障那可是近年來因為國外牙醫學歷返台人數快速的攀升遠遠超過這個實習的容量才會造成這個排隊的難題這也是大家目前共同面對的問題那當實習資源面臨擠壓不僅衝擊整體的訓練品質"},{"start":4610.158,"end":4628.245,"text":"同時也使本土醫學生跟國外學歷反台人員之間出現了國內總量嚴格控管跟國外未明確設限的落差這種制度的不一致性除了公平性以外更可能對整體醫療訓練體系造成長遠的影響剛剛很多專家學者也都有提出這樣的問題跟質疑"},{"start":4634.708,"end":4650.945,"text":"第二個部分的是名額的控管要非常的嚴謹98年由衛生署教育部考選部跟醫界專家所做的這個會議結論裡面就有提到決議這個國外醫學系當然包括這個亞醫學系的畢業生實質融合為國內醫學生"},{"start":4653.727,"end":4664.792,"text":"的這個人額的10%就是說是十分之一那以亞裔為例的話是剛剛講過391人的總額所以現在是39位那103年將國外學歷亞科實習名額就從30名提高到50名這50個名額比例不僅超過共識的十分之一甚多"},{"start":4676.917,"end":4696.133,"text":"而且事實上也比國內現在其他的八所牙醫學系當中的五所包括台大29名陽明的38名成大20名中國46名國防20名的招生名額還要多所以當前50人的名額已經超過這個標準如果再一次擴大的話將會進一步壓縮到教學空間影響到整體的醫療品質"},{"start":4697.654,"end":4720.477,"text":"那在今天的這個書面報告裡面衛生部已經明確的表示要將國外亞醫學系的畢業生迄今維持在每年50名不會再提高所以本席這些方面的方向表示肯定並呼籲這樣的限額應該持續的嚴格執行且不得再隨意擴張就是50名不希望會借用任何的名義來增加"},{"start":4722.539,"end":4750.641,"text":"或者將會對過去本國醫學生所建立的總額管制嚴謹的限制失去的基礎那總額管制不是形式而是基於台灣訓練量所做出的謹慎安排來維護穩定台灣醫療相關的品質所以我想期待透過這樣的說明也讓大家透過所有專家學者的這些意見讓我們主管機關做一個慎重的參考以上"},{"start":4754.474,"end":4779.766,"text":"好 謝謝王振旭委員他是總留科的非常的投入謝謝他我跟大家報告我們立法院通過的叫法例法例通過之後因為法例的規範有時候比較大方向所以各部會行政機關就必須要根據這個法例去訂定施行細則"},{"start":4782.039,"end":4801.288,"text":"議事法議事法是立法院通過的但是議事法的實行細則就是委員會要去訂定那這個案子已經在去年的2月6號公告過嘛對不對公告有60天11月好那在"},{"start":4803.03,"end":4829.128,"text":"預告啦一般預告或者公告有人有意見的話就會再討論現在今年3月上來立法院施行細則一般都會送到立法院再來複合一次立法院會的大院會就把它唸過唸過就算通過了通過這個施行細則本身就變成準法律採用法律的位階是一樣的"},{"start":4830.049,"end":4850.429,"text":"然後再根據這個實行細則去訂立一些辦法規範這個是部裡面自己訂的所以實行細則如果在立法院通過之後是等於約束法律的慰藉所以跟大家報告所以才會造成這麼大的一些意見那今天我們就大家發表好好的講"},{"start":4851.11,"end":4871.349,"text":"那我再跟大家報導這個在立法院只有立法委員講話是免責欠所以其他的人我們現在是錄音錄影就變成呈堂公務了所以大家不要做人生的攻擊再講一次我很討厭在這邊做人生攻擊好那接續我們請杜澤光理事長"},{"start":4881.454,"end":4907.985,"text":"主席 各位與會的貴賓 大家早安那我是台灣牙醫教育學會的理事長那今天來參加這個公聽會我們大概剛剛前面幾位學者專家都已經有把目前的現況跟各位做陳述了那我再補充兩個方向第一個方向就是所謂的牙醫的臨床技能測驗那目前牙醫的臨床技能測驗在大大院校裡面是把它列入在課程裡面的範圍而不是一個"},{"start":4910.563,"end":4917.437,"text":"不是不是一個考試的就是一個取得證照的一個必要的項目而且目前我們的"},{"start":4919.039,"end":4941.268,"text":"牙科的臨床技能測驗只做一半因為如果正常要像醫學系他們拿到的證照的取得必須要臨床技能測驗他們是要考12題但是我目前我目前限於經費的部分我們大概各校在諮詢舉辦大概只能做到3題到4題這是我目前的困難那所以這塊其實目前要再推到國家級的一個"},{"start":4942.108,"end":4958.343,"text":"一個取得證照的標準的話基本上還很長的一段路要走而且這一塊其實他所耗的經費非常的多據我所知一學系他一個學生大概要講大概要一萬塊的一個考試的費用可是我們研究學系完全沒有我們都是自己來做"},{"start":4959.384,"end":4985.692,"text":"所以這一塊其實是我們目前碰到雅醫學教育一個非常大的困難而且目前真的沒有把它跟國考取得證照的資格做連結我這塊完全是各學校它的一個教學的一個項目之一這是我必須要再做一次說明的那第二個部分我們要知道的就是目前台灣八大院校的雅醫學系可以教的老師不到一百位"},{"start":4987.418,"end":4992.363,"text":"不到100位這個這個數目大概就只有一個美國的哈佛大學的養育學院的老師的數量"},{"start":4994.159,"end":5017.51,"text":"這是我們現在目前我們牙醫學教育碰到的一個很大的一個瓶頸那也是要跟各位五位委員做報告那所以其實我們剛剛前面很多的委員講到的我們的值跟量事實上我們都要兼顧再來就是說我們還要考慮到的是目前我們我一直講不均不均的部分不是只有在城鄉的差距包括開業跟醫學中心我目前也是中華民國醫院牙科協會的理事長"},{"start":5018.87,"end":5040.517,"text":"那目前也是其實我們的流向也是都是在開業醫比較多 反而開業醫跟醫學中心去醫院的比例非常的懸殊啦所以這一塊其實我們要考慮的人力的資源的分配不是只有在城鄉的差距 甚至在各級的教學醫院甚至還有學校的教學單位 這一塊其實我們必須要去考慮的"},{"start":5041.957,"end":5060.562,"text":"這是我們必須要去想的一個很大的問題你必須要從底層去做這些相關的打造相關的改造才有機會把我們的牙醫學教育推到更好的部分讓我們人民享受更好的牙醫服務的品質這是我必須要補充提醒各位與會專家必須要討論清楚的"},{"start":5062.202,"end":5079.447,"text":"就是最基本的你前面你上後面的部分再怎麼做其實也是一個亡羊補牢的措施重點是我們自己本身我們有沒有辦法把這個牙醫學的基礎教育或包括我們醫師的養成教育做好這個是我們可能要再續申施的以上就是我兩點的補充 謝謝"},{"start":5083.696,"end":5091.766,"text":"謝謝杜理事長那接下來我們請台灣醫院協會法規委員吳明彥也是我們師協的秘書長"},{"start":5101.534,"end":5124.567,"text":"主席謝謝蘇立召開這個公聽會首先這個法案當然是引起社會上很大的一個癢疾但是我覺得如果照蘇立剛才的解釋是說議員法案大概已經練過了練過就視同法例了那再來因為其實這就是一個平衡點我們做醫院管理者每天在做結社都是一個平衡點"},{"start":5126.078,"end":5152.402,"text":"有爭議的論點也是在社會上的兩極那大家一起討論最後一個平衡點那我覺得這個平衡點要達到其實也不難因為大家已經起了一個共識了嘛大概台灣以台灣現在的國力你沒辦法不承認這些先進國家那我們想一想30年前我們的國力跟美國差多大美國有沒有承認我們台灣的協力有啊"},{"start":5153.544,"end":5165.181,"text":"那你如果照這樣講,美國那時候為什麼三十年前要成立台灣協定呢?你那時候國力跟美國差那麼多啊美國也沒有說因為歧視你,就不承認你的協力啊"},{"start":5166.579,"end":5187.307,"text":"台灣現在外交的困境你有辦法不承認歐盟或美國或這些學校的協力嗎我覺得大環境很難這是一個你在做這個結稅第一個面對的困境第二個你承認了你必須承認承認之後最後的平衡點就是管理"},{"start":5188.027,"end":5204.086,"text":"哎呀這個以前我們有什麼叫廣資配額就是只能從數量去管之外就是我每年開放幾個給你幾個而已嘛就是大概大家努力的目標就是這樣子而已啊那現在如果50個訓練的名額就是好好從這50個裡面好好給他訓練好好給他考試"},{"start":5208.792,"end":5220.145,"text":"很嚴格的那也許可以要求多一點就是說你因為這一群人他在外國看的不是台灣人啊那你可以要求他多看一點病人啊你可以要求說他訓練的時間多一點"},{"start":5222.13,"end":5247.688,"text":"那沒關係啊 考試甚至可以嚴格一點也許我們可以要求我們這些老師我們的老師以後出考題 嚴格一點啊或者是 就是從這方面訓練加上嚴格的訓練 嚴格的訓練case多一點 那應該經過的考試就是嚴格一點那如果你有本事 你如果有本事就給他課過那當然我覺得可以給你證詩啊甚至專科醫師也一樣啊"},{"start":5249.609,"end":5269.688,"text":"那我是覺得大概只能從這一點去考量那另外一點的話我是覺得如果這些醫生願意去台灣的醫生不去的偏遠地區這就沒辦法你自己的醫生就不要去,人家要去你一定要給他一個優惠就是他去偏遠地區或者去離島地區他的受限時間少一點這個是"},{"start":5272.894,"end":5290.117,"text":"這個沒辦法每個國家對於偏遠地區都有鼓勵啊這是全世界都一樣啊日本吳亦村他甚至薪水一樣給他一個月薪水很高的保障薪水啊那你為什麼說為什麼吳亦村的薪水要給我比我們一般的人多兩倍或三倍"},{"start":5290.918,"end":5314.439,"text":"這個是國家政策沒辦法本來就不需要去的地方你就是要用政策鼓勵嘛以前我們醫院在這些主管在設計愛滋病房的時候沒人去的時候怎麼做很簡單我下個月馬上公告愛滋病房一個月津貼五千塊多五千塊有沒有人去沒人去一萬塊馬上就有人報名了這個很簡單就是管理手段你就加到有人去嘛"},{"start":5315.438,"end":5328.171,"text":"就是一定的道理 加一萬塊就有護理人員去愛滋病房照顧了那我是覺得這個部分要就是大概偏領地區一定要給他一點鼓勵再來"},{"start":5330.075,"end":5355.317,"text":"視訊教學大概會躲不掉因為這是全世界技術了那事實上這個教學的技術也會進步那這個部分避忍不掉後面就是加管理嘛給他考試考試嚴格一點或者你實作的你上完這課你也要有實作啊你實作過你有辦法通過我的考試很嚴格我的實作也很嚴格那視訊教學那當然你也可以啊但是就是後面要加管理手段"},{"start":5356.138,"end":5373.536,"text":"那關於這個細則因為我現在同時負責國際醫療的工作小組的執行長我倒是有一點要一直對國際醫療對國外這些好的醫生特別是在美國、加拿大這種先進國家的主治醫師的認證我是有一點"},{"start":5374.497,"end":5397.679,"text":"不同意 我覺得應該更鬆一點因為台灣從小英那時候當行政院副院長就開始推動國際醫療的旗艦機構 到現在因為國際醫療是一個國家的一個競爭力的象徵國際醫療做得好 代表你這個國家醫療水準很好人家 國外的人 你花大錢來你台灣就醫代表你的技術很好"},{"start":5398.88,"end":5424.994,"text":"那我是覺得我們台灣的華人在前世有很多好的醫生這些好的醫生如果他願意退休回來貢獻這個對我們台灣的本土醫生有沒有本土的民眾有沒有好處當然有啊你如果以後要看一個好醫師以前是要到美國你是要花機票要花什麼都才可以看到好醫師那這個醫生如果願意回歸來台灣救醫來台灣幫我們看醫生看國際病人為什麼不好呢"},{"start":5426.235,"end":5453.444,"text":"那甚至我們將來國際醫療的產值越好的話我們全民健保的壓力就越少啊醫院對全民健保的依賴越少我們民眾腳的保衛越少這個已經 寫者都已經認證說國際醫療是一個重點那這些好的醫生如果在國外好的醫生比如說他已經是我工作小組的醫院可以去申請這些醫師那這些醫師只能限制在這些國際醫療的醫院做出那他在國外拿到好的"},{"start":5454.444,"end":5466.99,"text":"醫院或者學校裡面主治醫師已經擔任10年了那又有臨床的表現好的那我覺得政府馬上就直接給他換照不要再考試啦不要再那這樣子才可以提升我們的國籍量好謝謝"},{"start":5478.746,"end":5486.05,"text":"醫院行政 我也說他打個噴嚏好 繼續我們請新北市醫事工會張斌璇醫師"},{"start":5498.664,"end":5519.522,"text":"各位主席各位委員還有各位與會的先進還有長官們大家好我是張明璇醫師那首先的話我今天是代表新北市醫師公會來參加這個公聽會那我們新北市醫師公會因為就是說內部討論也很熱烈那有兩位個人的醫師有提供書面的意見不知道方不方便呈給主席一併作為記錄"},{"start":5524.042,"end":5542.515,"text":"那我這邊的話大概就總體的一個方向的話其實我們是醫師啦所以我們大概就是分享過去的一些經驗那我也依照就是說今天的一個提綱大概從三個方向來做一個分享第一個是學歷採認第二個是偏鄉第三個是從醫療人力的一個方向"},{"start":5543.075,"end":5562.971,"text":"那首先在學歷採認上面其實在整體的這樣子一個方向上面我們其實醫師不管從各個工會以及到過去全聯會一直以來的一個想法都是病人的權益一定是要優先的一個考量再來的話就是要顧及所有的一個就醫平權其實同樣生活在台灣這個島上大家不應該有任何的一個差異"},{"start":5563.852,"end":5581.153,"text":"所以從學歷採認上面來講第一個我們就是說一樣是支持本國優先這樣子的一個想法但是這個不代表說我們反對就是說或是要排擠其他的一個國家本國優先這樣子的一個想法主要還是在於一個我們自己的一個學生以及我們"},{"start":5581.854,"end":5595.513,"text":"就是說這些不管是醫師牙醫師中醫師這個公平性的一個問題畢竟大家經過這麼長的一條路的一個努力那取得這樣一個證照那這其實是一個公平性的一個問題這當然是一個考量可是還是"},{"start":5596.815,"end":5612.612,"text":"那個總量管制有沒有他的一個必要性其實在政策上絕對有必要性因為從公共衛生的一個角度如果你今天太多的一個競爭會發生一個供給者誘發需求的一個問題其實可能會引發更多不必要的一個醫療存在可是"},{"start":5613.372,"end":5629.48,"text":"就是說就一些就是說已經取得國外學歷的這樣子的一些畢業生來講那他們是不是絕對的沒有能力來從事這樣子的一個工作呢我想學歷不見得是完完全全等於能力的所以就是說外國他"},{"start":5630.12,"end":5651.193,"text":"外國各個九大國家以現在醫師法上面的這個九大國家是不是都能夠齊平的這樣子去看待其實這也是一個我想是大家的一個問號啦那而且就算是同一個國家這個國家裡面可能也有不同的一個學校那這個也就是為什麼我們要去做一些學歷認證的這樣子的一個想法"},{"start":5651.753,"end":5678.002,"text":"所以我們今天就是說等於是在國外的這個學歷我們進行一個人員的一個管制我想這個其實是包括我們本國也會有這樣子的醫師人員的一個人數的一個管制這是同樣的一個脈絡那如果國外的一個學歷我們既然已經給予認證而缺乏了某些的一個訓練項目他的可能他的學能力不會比較差只是在我們的一個本國的一個標準之下可能某些項目需要補足的話"},{"start":5678.502,"end":5707.101,"text":"那這確實就是我們需要去思考有沒有辦法幫助他們來做一個補足所以我們基本上在能力上面來講可能把關以現在的一個機制上面一個是從學歷的一個角度只是這個學歷的一個角度現在是以國家的一個層次那是不是要更細緻的來認定這樣子的一個學歷那這可能是一個第二個的話就是從證照的一個角度證照的話包括訓練之後考到這樣子一個執照如果我們連考到醫師執照都還否認"},{"start":5708.922,"end":5736.908,"text":"這樣子的一個能力的時候那可能這個我們表示我們自己政道制度是需要去修改的所以我們發生爭議以後我們第一個在這一個認證的一個機制上面去做一個加強第二個的話就是在醫師法修正以後那他有一個落日條款如果我們覺得說這發生不公平的話那在過去已經信任這樣的一個法規制度的這些人我們可能保障他們同某一種程度的權利可是在某一定的一個時間之後我們可能要"},{"start":5737.488,"end":5756.211,"text":"設定說既然你已經知道這發生爭議而且在法規上不允許你就不要再去踩這條紅線我想這樣子的一個機制的一個轉變去保障原本對於法律上的一個信賴保護那我覺得這個是可能是有必要的那第二個是在於偏鄉的部分那我本身是一個小兒身上的科醫師"},{"start":5757.052,"end":5775.195,"text":"那我也很慚愧就是說其實在某些縣市其實是整個縣市可能是沒有任何小兒四專科的一個醫師只有一般的小兒科醫師那這個其實就是說我自己是在城市長大的然後當然我們可能就會對於去偏鄉長期的雖然我參加過議診參加過去住院醫師也分配也曾經輪調到偏鄉可是長期的一個職業這確實對我們來講大部分的一個醫師可能都會有一些猶豫"},{"start":5784.777,"end":5801.249,"text":"那所以在這樣子一個情況之下過去可能增加了公費生醫師那公費生醫師從105年到現在其實第一屆都還沒有畢業為了偏鄉去增加所以可能需要有一些其他的一些方式來保障這些偏鄉的一些那個"},{"start":5802.85,"end":5825.662,"text":"醫療資源因為這些人他一樣是台灣人一樣生活在同樣的地方可是他沒有辦法得到同樣的一些醫療的資源的一個保障所以他涉及到的其實就是一個人權的一個保障那在這個部分的話我們如果說他對於一些我們可能就是說其他以一個偏鄉的一個方式來做一個工作上的一個限制"},{"start":5826.883,"end":5845.741,"text":"來保障也不能說保障就是說等於是來保障這些偏鄉的一個權益的話這可能是一個可以考慮的一個方式但是對於這些醫師如果我只限制你永遠都只能在偏鄉這可能或許也有一些憲法上的一個工作權保障的一個思考這可能是我們必須要小心的"},{"start":5846.261,"end":5859.957,"text":"那最後就是醫療人力啦那因為這就是說醫療人力以目前來講醫師來講就是說等於是不斷流向非救命科然後流向一些就不留在醫院裡面那這確實也會造成整體的台灣的醫療水準的一個隱憂"},{"start":5862.6,"end":5883.799,"text":"所以就是說在維持醫療水準充實醫療人力的這樣子一個思維之下怎麼樣能夠就是說讓整個那個醫療環境能夠更好而且讓整個醫療人員的一個福利能夠有充分的一個保障那我想這個其實就是能夠滿足我們這一個維護病人安全然後也維護就醫的一個平權這樣子的一個想法謝謝"},{"start":5889.393,"end":5895.577,"text":"謝謝張醫師那接續我們請牙醫師全聯會法治護足委盧彥成醫師"},{"start":5903.106,"end":5930.857,"text":"主席各位先生早安那我是代表全聯會牙醫全聯會來這裡跟各位做個報告一下在報告之前我先說明一下就是我自己個人的話第一個是我小孩是台灣本土的牙醫師在張玉超的前輩的指導下完成學業然後也在台灣完成完整的"},{"start":5932.478,"end":5949.034,"text":"PGY訓練那也完整的拿到專科醫師所以很多人誤解說全人會的代表的角色好像很模糊那我只是說其實全人會代表的是很多人共同的聲音當然也有一點點的意見存在"},{"start":5950.031,"end":5973.691,"text":"第二個是我在闡述我個人的經歷第二個是陳書商來講的其實我三十年前在美國我是拿到了美國的國家考試那我只用四個月時間考到美國實際考試可是我拿的學歷是台北醫學院大學的畢業證書我直接就去apply了他的國家考試那他也讓我考了我在四個月內完成part1 part2"},{"start":5974.532,"end":6003.47,"text":"那這也是我個人的經驗我只是僅於報告我剛剛前面啟惠先進講的一個經歷就我個人的一個經歷來跟各位做一個簡單的報告第三個是醫療人員的分佈其實醫療人員的佈軍其實真的不只限於城鄉差異其實就算在台北市來講不同的醫療院所也存在了很明顯的醫療人員的分配佈軍因為請我個人代表我以前是"},{"start":6004.98,"end":6022.237,"text":"以前SARS的時候和平醫院的牙科主任然後我被關了21天那之後我現在還是聯合醫院的兼任處置醫師順便帶了intern跟PGY可是在我們是屬於區域醫院可是我們招不到正規的"},{"start":6024.907,"end":6049.417,"text":"我們本土的亞裔的學生畢業因為他們都到了醫學中心去了然後第二個是可能都到診所去了所以我們這20年來就是在十幾年不敢說20年這十幾年我們在醫院裡面主要帶的intern大部分都是國外生我們留在醫院裡面做了PGY的醫生也很多是國外生"},{"start":6050.393,"end":6077.63,"text":"那這個代表的意思是說就算是在一個很明顯的醫療資源很充沛的都會區裡面也存在了一些醫療分配不均的現象那這是我可能提供一個大家思索的一個方向那在這個過程中間這幾年來講我帶過的所謂的internship就是國外的實習生裡面"},{"start":6078.47,"end":6089.583,"text":"有美國有日本當然有現在所謂的婆婆生那也有西班牙有歐盟的國家甚至也有菲律賓還有阿根廷的"},{"start":6090.799,"end":6117.39,"text":"那這些阿根廷跟菲律賓的學生他是很明顯的接受台灣的學歷檢測考試考完以後再參加正式的國家考試Part 1之後再根據我們的規定來到醫院做Internship的一年Training之後再去考第二年的Part 2的國家考試當然他也順利的拿到了台灣的亞歷史執照"},{"start":6118.895,"end":6124.7,"text":"那我只是簡單的敘述我這幾年來我的一個經歷那當然就是根據這樣的話我們就說"},{"start":6127.403,"end":6152.303,"text":"全年會的對象當然我們很關心本土的牙醫系學生因為他未來絕對是我們牙醫師的主幹未來我們的牙醫系的生態整個的牙醫醫療體系絕對是靠我們這些年輕學子來支撐的所以我們也很關心他們未來的走向然後他們怎麼樣如何在台灣這個"},{"start":6154.595,"end":6168.113,"text":"這個大家都喜愛的國土上能夠發揮對於醫療上面的一個努力的大業我們都很期待也希望給予很好的協助那可是當然"},{"start":6169.312,"end":6194.767,"text":"同樣來講就是全聯會的對象相對也是牙醫師這個牙醫師的對象不一定僅止於只要是拿到執照的醫生都應該是全聯會應該要照顧的對象所以這個時候我們就會希望說我們在一個政策面上的話是會普及到各個層面的一個牙醫師"},{"start":6196.929,"end":6212.302,"text":"所以說在這個地方的話就是當然今天的會議的重點簡單來講就是一個學歷的認證然後醫療偏鄉的分布那就學歷認證這件事來講的話全能會的有一些小意見就是說"},{"start":6213.55,"end":6240.642,"text":"在某些體育上說見習跟實習的話我們在條文上可能就是會建議一下就是說應該是比照國內牙醫系的時數我想這是一個公平的一個出發點可能如果大家嫌說可能在條文上越顯不足的話我們會建議說加注這一點可能會比較消弭到大家對於實習或見習上面的一些疑慮"},{"start":6241.969,"end":6261.816,"text":"第二個意見就是說對於遠距教學這件事情的話當然在條文上只有寫遠距教學我們的意見是說也許基於蕭敏各方對於遠距教學疑慮的話是不是遠距教學後面加速是由我國認定的相關遠距教學我們才採用"},{"start":6263.596,"end":6286.848,"text":"那當然這個東西就給予大家一個比較大的一個討論空間好 以上 結束 謝謝謝謝大家講得很好等一下再由行政單位來回答齁那接續我們請黃應齊我們本土小牙醫聯盟召集人 歡迎"},{"start":6297.22,"end":6325.077,"text":"主席各位出席的貴賓大家好還有各位部會的長官大家好那很高興今天可以跟很多的部會直接的溝通我是本土小阿姨你們的召集人我們非常關心這個議題那我先自我介紹介紹一下我本身是在海邊的農村出生的孩子我是靠著公平的教育的考試制度才能夠翻身當上牙醫"},{"start":6326.676,"end":6348.281,"text":"在我的家鄉像我這樣的孩子要不然就是當女工要不然就是嫁人那我透過一個公平的考試機制沒有補習的狀況下靠著苦讀當上醫生從事我可以服務生命大將的志業那我的職場我現在是在三邊的國園旁邊的診所服務"},{"start":6349.574,"end":6367.649,"text":"根據WHO裡面的研究報告也指示出生鄉村的孩子最會願意回到鄉村而我就是一個實際的案例我今天來看波波爭議我為什麼站出來因為這個議題我們要從兩個角度來看第一個是教育的公平正義"},{"start":6368.69,"end":6385.729,"text":"像我這樣的孩子有沒有一個機會可以苦讀翻身還是以後都要靠錢才能夠來鋪路當醫生呢我想這是一個很重要的社會的價值而這樣的價值也是台灣進步的動力所以我們不能夠破壞它"},{"start":6386.75,"end":6402.901,"text":"第二個我們要從醫療的品質來看因為這是一個重要的公共利益這也是我身為職業裡面在維護的一個價值我的病人他是一個隔代教養的小孩子他的阿嬤帶他來"},{"start":6404.602,"end":6423.125,"text":"沒有什麼很好的教育的知識然後呢 他是帶著一罐煙催眉來感謝我我非常珍視我的職業我希望這樣子的醫療 這是公共的價值我們希望這樣的價值也可以傳承下去喔"},{"start":6424.292,"end":6446.851,"text":"所以我今天也要在場就是呼籲對於這個政策有所權利您有修改權利您有決策權利您可以讓它通過的人要從這兩個方面來整身的思考因為當這個法定下去這一個施行性下去它是影響非常廣非常遠而要修改我想也是非常困難要不然我們今天也不會倡議了一兩年還在這裡"},{"start":6450.319,"end":6466.097,"text":"那我這次也要懇請說我們非常感謝蘇召委召開這樣的公聽會當然也希望說立法院可以繼續召委可以繼續推動排審然後把這樣有爭議的法案把它擋下來我們的意見就是逐條審查退回重寫沒有討論沒有正義就跟服貿一樣"},{"start":6475.134,"end":6492.324,"text":"我們的訴求至少不管你怎麼修你至少要維持舊的醫師法施行細則還有106年學歷採認的標準不能放寬我們沒有要加嚴加深我們只希望政府維持你最基本最原始的價值而已"},{"start":6493.544,"end":6520.314,"text":"再來我們要感謝趙薇那請趙薇做台灣醫療的守門人那如果衛福部堅持要這樣做我們希望呢立委們可以發揮守護台灣醫療的權限和責任把他擋下來因為今天的時間有限我的換單片非常多那有機會再跟大家二次報告那這個爭議裡面有五大爭議第一個就是畢業學校的認證"},{"start":6521.963,"end":6542.021,"text":"原本的施行細則裡面原本的裁認原則裡面只有教育部的認測裁認而台灣教育部的認測學校其實網站都有他已經是非常的包山包海甚至連語言學校都包含在內我想我們大家想一想醫學系科怎麼可以用這樣子的標準呢"},{"start":6542.862,"end":6570.93,"text":"等一下我也會跟大家報告新加坡在怎麼樣採任國外學校他們是正面表列他們有一個專門的Dental Council或者Medical Council在審核他們國外的這個學歷的認證而且是每隔幾年就重新檢討一次他們會依他們國內的供需狀況我國內土生培養的醫生人數夠不夠來決定我要採任幾所國外大學"},{"start":6571.75,"end":6594.228,"text":"而這個採任的國外大學還不是全部包山包寒都承認即使是美國英國他也給他砍掉一半以上因為然後台灣呢所有的牙醫系他都不承認醫學系他只承認台大醫學系我想一個國家如果要保護他國民的健康除了好好培養自己本土的孩子"},{"start":6595.239,"end":6617.01,"text":"你要對你開放讓國外學歷進來大家沒有意見但你要嚴格的把關不可以在這上面隨便放寬而我要強調原本的106連採認原則的標準比現在還高私刑細則放得更寬喔再來遠距教學難道衛福部容許實習也可以遠距教學嗎"},{"start":6618.826,"end":6641.638,"text":"上次跟貴部溝通的時候您說這個法定好以後要交給考選部去執行那麼我就非常想要請問考選部了請問貴部有什麼有足夠的人和物力去審核國外學歷在遠距教學這一塊嗎是不是實習當初是不是疫病那什麼叫做重大事故"},{"start":6642.628,"end":6660.681,"text":"如果是疫病那就要回到考選部的認定了嘛那請問考選就要回到衛福部的認定了嘛那衛福部說他訂好這個法要交給考選部來執行請問考選部如何執行是不是跟大家說明一下讓大家放心要不然這個就不能夠放寬好其他有機會我再跟大家報告謝謝謝謝黃召集人"},{"start":6673.004,"end":6676.311,"text":"很感佩你的精神繼續我們請林公愷醫師歡迎"},{"start":6687.601,"end":6702.282,"text":"主席 那個各位貴賓好像來這裡都要自我利益揭露啦我說我小孩沒有念一牙腰本身是醫事公會全聯會的副秘書長但是我不敢代表他那我目前是高雄市醫事公會"},{"start":6703.524,"end":6731.684,"text":"那大概重點在修正醫師法實行細則其實明顯看得出修正重點在法治上是讓這個要求跟標準得到法律的明確授權應該是符合授權明確性跟法律明確性的原則那大家的爭執點在於認定的學校是否實質放寬是否要包含OSCE等等以及疫情期間是否能夠透過遠距教學來取代這些的問題"},{"start":6733.851,"end":6761.165,"text":"那第一個點就是說認定學校問題台灣醫學教育都是接近美國美國的模式大家也都很熟悉那我們這些做法都是要其實是為了確保醫療品質的目的然後也幫助確保學校培養出具備必要專業能力的醫師也強化醫師執照的把關然後就是以一個普遍性的考試來作為個別醫師是否符合職業資格的"},{"start":6762.566,"end":6783.099,"text":"所以在學校的採任,在美國其實它是可能會有另外一個組織來做認證所以在學校的採任,我們要追求國際化的標準,然後透過嚴格的考試跟持續的評鑑機制來保障"},{"start":6784.94,"end":6806.138,"text":"條文當中寫的當地國政府學校權責機關或認定的教育專業評鑑團體對學校的認可如果有團體有疑慮建議可以請衛福部舉例說明看這樣子的文語解釋一方面有沒有哪個國家的例子因為有些國家不是由他的權責的行政機關去直接認可"},{"start":6807.065,"end":6831.732,"text":"那另外一方面就是說對這樣認可的這個強度啦跟這個比如說他們有什麼衛福部或他們類似的選擇中央行政機關認可強度會不會一樣這樣可以去適宜那我是自己去查了那個波波事件當中那個波茲南醫科大學的英文班以他為例那這個學校的學位也其實也獲得波蘭跟歐盟的相關認證"},{"start":6833.359,"end":6860.878,"text":"那話說回來我們其實也不要歧視波瀾因為我們的很多醫療的指標跟他差不多然後我不知道教育如何那對美國來說他那個美國在看這個對招收國外的這個的這種學醫學生然後他們會確認申請者所畢業的醫學院在世界醫學院名錄就是Word Director of Medical School裡面有"},{"start":6861.698,"end":6886.003,"text":"民視然後符合美國ECFMG的資格要求所以波茲南醫科大學這個畢業生他具備申請美國考試然後進入住院醫師訓練的資格那這個世界醫學名錄其實是一個國際組織他所發展的所以這個學校可能不是美國官方認可是不是可以用這個例子來讓大家示意等等"},{"start":6886.883,"end":6912.379,"text":"那第二個包含OSCE的這個議題條文修正的第二條其實整個修正文是醫學系課已經把醫學、中醫、牙醫統整在裡頭那要不要OSCE的話請其實衛福部找牙醫他們去統一標準就可以這個我們其他的比如說西醫或中醫其實也沒什麼特別意見"},{"start":6913.9,"end":6941.014,"text":"那當然我們的問題表面上是不是要包含什麼東西什麼標準這個東西就是其實是衛福部去找各個團體來整合這不難解決我們的問題實際上是人數需要控管以免對現行醫事人力的職業狀況衝擊太大那這部分必須提到醫師壓醫師的人數重點不在於總數多少而在於分布不均"},{"start":6941.934,"end":6966.696,"text":"分布不均不是說這個不是說這個大家前面的各位先進都講過他其實還是可以透過制度的設計政策長期對個人的補助或獎勵的方式來讓人家有誘因來解決偏鄉醫療醫缺的地區因為醫師或牙醫師在那邊職業就面臨教育、交通、小孩教育這些問題還有經濟上的問題"},{"start":6969.358,"end":6980.981,"text":"那如果怎麼樣去設計偏向服務其實有很多的設計方式不一定要讓菜鳥去啊這個就要各個團體去善用指揮去思考跟折衝再來像當事人者"},{"start":6982.554,"end":7009.088,"text":"再往下行政機關或許利用韓式的方式來舉例來明確化體現這些相當性原則像第二條的通則有這個相當的這個字眼那裁判方式第13條的入學管帶有這個字眼那我們之前如果怕說拿錢就可以私下考試啦或者隨便一個名義簡單考一考就入學那比如說像之前有查到40個人不符合裁判原則就不能考嘛"},{"start":7009.648,"end":7035.266,"text":"可以透過這些舉例或者說經過有這些情勢可以查訪可以視為不符合標準或不相當的入學方式讓外界瞭解然後減少他的疑慮其實醫學專業教育的資格各國寬載不一我們是入學難 畢業比較寬但是別的國家可能不一定但世界各國都會用一個關卡去做把關"},{"start":7036.747,"end":7045.284,"text":"那像是看實習名額還是考照難度等等不然還是會造成後續的問題那至於疫情跟遠距交學"},{"start":7046.744,"end":7069.772,"text":"其實我也有看到這個中大變故的解釋當然我們不能夠要求國外學校的教學做法但是我們對於教學品質跟內容不要有過多的妥協比如說有些情節要去實地審查或實質審查看有沒有補修措施如果有時候需要補修或者額外的要求等等的這其實都可以再進一步去做"},{"start":7070.632,"end":7083.917,"text":"那總結就是說我們是希望社會各界不管是牙醫師各個團體其實都會不同立場那是怎麼樣讓大家取得一個中間點跟平衡點來減少社會上的對立 以上謝謝好 謝謝林醫師那繼續我們請姚欣宇台灣基層牙醫師協會理事長發言"},{"start":7101.323,"end":7119.61,"text":"好首先非常謝謝蘇清泉委員為我們安排這個公聽會讓很多學者專家可以來一起討論這個很有爭議的這個醫師法師型細則那既然今天這個衛生福利部有很多長官來到這邊不知道可不可以請教一下衛生福利部的醫事師師長還在嗎請問"},{"start":7125.033,"end":7141.011,"text":"醫師司副司長受媒體採訪的時候他表示說這個醫師法新的施行細則他是把原本的規定原本對於學歷國外學歷審核的規定他照搬到條文裡面都沒有修改請問這是醫師司的立場嗎還是衛福部整理的立場"},{"start":7142.655,"end":7164.396,"text":"衛福部方便回答嗎等一下才回答是嗎這個不是執行不能問問題發表你的問題發表我的問題不要問問題對嗎不好意思你先選立委選上可以啦不好意思謝謝立委大人指教我第一次參加公聽會我什麼都不懂非常抱歉好那我就不詢問那"},{"start":7166.218,"end":7170.522,"text":"因為我是有點疑惑啦144的副司長接受媒體訪問的時候說這個是照搬完全沒有變但是像蘇清泉委員上禮拜有質詢這個衛福部的邱太元部長他是說變越來越嚴格啦"},{"start":7181.755,"end":7204.222,"text":"那這兩個不是互相矛盾嗎 對不對那那個蘇清泉在委員在質詢的時候也有說這個可能醫師法是一細則他爭議很多會需要延期審查這樣子那不知道蘇清泉委員這邊有沒有計畫要把他排案審查因為劉建國委員今天沒有來不好意思我只能向你提出這個意見這樣 謝謝"},{"start":7207.003,"end":7229.521,"text":"那剛剛有許多先進都有提到這個醫治法施行細則那其實前面有蠻多人說錯我可能要再稍微糾正一下啦像這個裡面有醫科也有牙科但是其實有一些蠻奇怪的規定是只有牙科才有的像是牙科可以用見習時數ID實習時數這是蠻奇怪的"},{"start":7232.763,"end":7251.577,"text":"醫科沒有這樣子喔那牙科的話他都有很多的操作戒息只是在旁邊看而已用戒息時數來取代實習時數對於這個醫師的養成品質真的是非常的令人感到害怕那還有臨床技能測驗的部分我可能稍微說明一下現在的制度齁"},{"start":7255.849,"end":7277.321,"text":"現在的牙醫的國外跟本國的他們都是考國考但是國考是只有單選的中文選擇題並沒有考這個所謂的實作操作操作的部分本國的牙醫系是另外考這個所謂的臨床技能測驗我們叫做OSCE但是在新版的醫師法施行細則裡面它規定醫學系要考這個"},{"start":7280.983,"end":7295.471,"text":"臨床操作但是國外的這個所謂波波牙醫是不用考的變成說本國牙醫系學生需要考實作他才會取得執照但是波波牙醫卻不用但是這兩者拿的是一樣的醫師執照我想這對於民眾來說是非常沒有保障的"},{"start":7299.352,"end":7305.278,"text":"然後再來這個我們上上禮拜其實有跟衛福部開過協調會感謝陳昭之委員他我們應該有蠻充分的跟衛福部表達我們認為這個醫師法施行細則他是放寬的最好的證據就是這法條裡面有涉及既往條款也就是說"},{"start":7318.671,"end":7339.542,"text":"這個伊斯法斯林細則在去年的11月他公告之後就立即生效但是在去年11月之前的這些國外學歷他也是適用這個新的規定那在法律上如果是越修越遠的法律他是沒有辦法溯及既往的這有可能會有違憲的問題所以這個溯及既往的規定本身就是他放寬的最佳的證據"},{"start":7343.482,"end":7371.31,"text":"好 那我們說明一下這個醫事法師體系到底是幹什麼那我們國外的學生我們很難去查核他們在國外的教學品質到底是如何所以說我們一般來說每個國家都會幫他們設另外的關卡來檢驗他們的程度那我們現在本國應該是有兩道關卡第一道就是學歷審核審查這些人的學歷有沒有資格回來參加我們的"},{"start":7372.97,"end":7390.761,"text":"醫師國考這個就是現在這醫師法適應系的規定的部分但是他卻遭到了放寬那第二道關卡是學歷真實這個是有考操作的但是現在已經回來的伯伯跟未來三五年回來的伯伯他們都不用考這個考試也就是說他們唯一要考的就只有那個單學的選擇體"},{"start":7393.666,"end":7412.591,"text":"那這個醫師法施行系的就是把這樣很多人放寬之後他們回來可能會經常龐大的人數的壓力那我們現在一年都是50名的這個國外的學歷的名額那他們人數壓力的話可能就會一直要求政府要放寬這個名額"},{"start":7415.252,"end":7440.302,"text":"那我們這邊必須強調並不是說我們歧視波蘭是波蘭的政府他們自己就公告說這些波波他們在國外在波蘭當地是沒有辦法執業的他們必須要再實習一年然後再考國家考試然後再考波蘭語的測驗他們才有辦法在波蘭實習在波蘭當的當醫生齁那這個是留學代辦公室他自己的廣告他自己就說波蘭跟西班牙這些波波他們的"},{"start":7442.923,"end":7466.117,"text":"實習要求是遠遠不夠英國的職業資格這都是他們自己說的 並不是說我們歧視他們那我也想問說 像這個遊學的招生廣告撥欄上面就直接寫說使用Skype視訊入學考試 不用考筆試就可以入學請問我們現在新的衣食法施行細則有任何一條可以把這種"},{"start":7466.977,"end":7487.115,"text":"方便的入選方式擋下來嗎希望等一下官員不管是衛福部還是考選部可以回答一下我的疑惑這樣謝謝好謝謝姚欣怡理事長那接續我們請林延敏教授發言"},{"start":7494.801,"end":7515.722,"text":"大家好,我是陽明交通大學牙醫系李元敏教授我會掛這個title是因為我們在2022年醫師法條文修正的時候我們陽明交通大學,我們整個學院就發表聲明反對這個醫師法修正的附帶決議那其實不只陽明交通大學啦,八大院校、中華牙醫學院"},{"start":7516.983,"end":7537.289,"text":"中華牙醫學會都有發表相關類似的聲明就是關於這個總量被打破 要被打破這一次那好險到後來我們政府選來論嘛這個總量部分還沒有被打破但是我不知道未來會不會這樣子好 我現在就要利益衝突聲明啦為什麼我要講這個事情 就是說當初呢 這個醫師法修法就是因為"},{"start":7538.643,"end":7548.857,"text":"什麼 因為賴會員委員沒有進行這個利益迴避產生那麼多的大量的這個社會紛擾賴委員今天應該過來這邊道歉才對應該過來這邊道歉 我是這樣說那個可以記錄到公報裡面"},{"start":7553.823,"end":7582.043,"text":"我覺得一個民主國家你任何的會議你任何的發言你先告訴我們你代表的是什麼你不要是假中立發言全部都是為了自己的利益所以我沒有三等輕之內就如亞裔系或是亞裔師我現在自己本身在學校當教授做研究其實我自己也沒有在看診了所以說應該是這個不會有跟我利益有衝突我現在講到是這個第13條"},{"start":7583.984,"end":7598.116,"text":"經過遠距教學方式但是發生傳染病我想這邊指的是COVID-19這個取得的部分學分不再此現其實我們之前跟衛福部有開會然後我們希望說你把某些條文加上去就是說你的"},{"start":7601.138,"end":7625.587,"text":"實習 見習 跟你的實驗不得以不得以遠距方式去取得我想大家同意吧實驗課 見習 實習不得以遠距方式取得那衛福部是跟我們說那這個東西之後由考選部去認定就好啦我就說那考選部就說我們知道衛福部的規定到時候這種條例一定下去到時候就會推來推去 保證保證推來推去"},{"start":7627.554,"end":7646.126,"text":"好 我先看一下這昨天有一個高中生申請陽明交通大學醫學系他因為他在他的這個學習歷程裡面有一點不符合 1.2點不符合事實就被取消資格所以說我們台灣對於亞醫系醫學系的入學資格非常嚴格我想在場大家都同意吧在場大家都同意 好"},{"start":7647.338,"end":7666.076,"text":"但是為什麼我們嚴審台灣的學子我沒有說這是錯的這是對的嚴審是對的所以我們卻重放潑潑學歷考選部你要不要想一下你們在審查這資格過程中有沒有好好的去審查所以其實我們這邊其實並不是要持續任何人我們只是說我們要公平"},{"start":7667.984,"end":7694.142,"text":"我們要嚴格去審核這些人因為他們治療是病人很多牙科治療 牙科是外科系統很多牙科治療之後是回不去的所以我們要求公平跟建立完成的監管機制建立完的監管機制真的是非常重要因為以目前的監管機制從這些波蘭醫學生從入學到取得醫師執照我們唯一能做的監管就是兩次國考單選題"},{"start":7696.356,"end":7717.063,"text":"他們的實作怎麼樣不知道他們在做適應訓練的時候能不能退訓我想待會請衛福部的長官說有沒有數據這些波蘭、西班牙或是這些國外的ER的學生回台灣進行所謂的適應訓練我覺得是實習啦因為我覺得他們在國外根本沒實習進行這個適應訓練他們到底被退訓的比例是多少"},{"start":7719.074,"end":7741.094,"text":"要講出來嘛 台灣學生會被退訓喔 你擺爛 什麼不出現 退訓明年再來 國外有沒有 據我所知現在是沒有大家仔細看一下這個 我們在大一到大六總共六年 我們第六年是實習 大一到大五大一到大四全部都是實驗課跟lecture然後紅色的部分是我們現在各個八大院校做的臨床技能測試 這不是國考的必考"},{"start":7743.552,"end":7768.672,"text":"但是這個是我們讓學生進醫院之前我們各個學校會先在內部把關然後藍色部分 淺藍色的部分是見習所以台灣基本上就是六年我們先看到國外 大家看一下大一到大五Lecture加Lab大五還有見習大五還有臨床前測試這是各個學校自己開個學分你沒過 你學分拿不到 你就不能進醫院大六是實習 我們看國外的"},{"start":7770.353,"end":7788.24,"text":"他們自己號稱 台灣是亞裔系列國外唸五年差一年差在哪裡我覺得是台灣實習 但是他們自己號稱自己號稱喔 沒有證據喔他們號稱他們的實習課是打上來各個課程大一幾歲 大一19歲你在醫院 你會給一個19歲的人看診嗎會的 願意的舉手嗎"},{"start":7792.597,"end":7807.876,"text":"所以說呢 他們說他們實習課程打三個大一到大五那請問一下實習 見習 臨床技能測試 實驗課這東西能遠距嗎 不能嘛所以說 代表說什麼 由邏輯推想代表過去三年四年之間有任何遠距教學的課程"},{"start":7808.757,"end":7836.194,"text":"有研究教學的事實 你們去查這些出入記的記錄有研究教學的事實 這些人根本就不符合考國考資格因為你根本就沒有做實驗課 國考有要求實驗喔根本沒有見習 你根本就沒有實習這是他們自己說的 不是我說的那搞選部麻煩一下 待會解釋一下或者是我在這邊 我用我的實名 雅明交通大學不要說實在 林元敏教授 我在這邊檢舉這些人不符合國考資格請大家去回去 去徹查"},{"start":7839.534,"end":7863.925,"text":"所以說呢 這個是他們國考他們現在怎麼樣去檢查國考的時候就是請這些國外的親切結束親切結束喔你們有沒有去發文過去的這個波波爭議有十年了你們有沒有去發文去國外的學校 國外的外交部確認說他們這些入學是不是正常招生入學嘛好 這是我的建議一生是要停還是兩生 兩生嗎"},{"start":7865.25,"end":7871.775,"text":"然後 見習實習 我建議在條文中加入實驗課見習實習不得以遠距方式實施第二條 過去有因為這些在COVID-19引起的這些在台灣 我們沒有說他以後一輩子不能考你回去你原本就讀學校 把這些學分補齊 你再來考我建議過去有這些因為審核疏失 沒有讓 就是讓他之前透過人取消他資格"},{"start":7893.821,"end":7898.363,"text":"你要回你原本的國家補修相關的實驗 見習 實習課程我覺得這是很合理的吧然後在做審查的時候 據我所知今年牙醫系200多個人考審查時間是20分鐘"},{"start":7908.919,"end":7925.067,"text":"那個大家可以請專機室市長黃市長來解釋一下是不是20分鐘請提供這些委員這些委員其實很多都不知道內情的你不能說以前就是這樣今年沒改變然後就讓大家通過絕對不可以這樣你要提供相關的法規嚴禁國外的課程設計相關的法院判例"},{"start":7927.092,"end":7942.178,"text":"退訓機制據我們所知現在目前國外亞裔學生在台灣實習沒有退訓機制你擺爛我們也奈何不了你沒有辦法退訓沒有辦法在明年再來我覺得這個是先例所以其實我們從頭到尾都沒有要歧視他們我們從頭到尾都說我們現在的把關機制根本就遠遠不足"},{"start":7944.862,"end":7966.047,"text":"還有現在有一個條文就是請問一下台灣畢業的抑壓學生我能不能去波蘭、西班牙、日本職業假設我不行的話這個很簡單外交部發個公文去問就可以了假如不行的話我們應該有兩國各有原則我們國家要有國格我們不能矮化人家目前為止這十年來外交部從來沒有做過這件事情我覺得外交部應該要做好 這是我的發言 謝謝不好意思 耽誤大家時間"},{"start":7973.37,"end":7995.798,"text":"謝謝林教授,我補充一下我2013年第八屆立委的時候,去WHA去了好多次那是正式經濟開會,我有去日內瓦就是日內瓦大學醫學院、輻射醫院,去那邊實地的拜會"},{"start":7997.222,"end":8018.761,"text":"在醫學院、副社醫院裡面就有看到我們台灣去的學生我們台灣去的,我們的孩子,在做醫生他們有病棟的、有高雄的,也有急診室的醫生他們都是在整個歐盟念書,有的在西班牙的、在波蘭等等"},{"start":8019.653,"end":8042.607,"text":"然後要回來台灣路人坎坷啦,所以呢他們就,他們是瑞士都承認了然後在那邊考,考過指導,現在就在那邊當正式的,有的當住院醫師,有的當老祖宗醫師我都很關心他們的受訓的過程,他們的residence"},{"start":8043.666,"end":8060.983,"text":"所以我看得很清楚有一些我看到的跟實際的劉大使也跟著我們一起去所以有時候你們在講的是有一點出入今天我不想發言因為發言又會被罵所以"},{"start":8062.642,"end":8073.091,"text":"這就亂講,大家都亂講了,請蔡公公來應該是實地看完再回來講好,繼續我們請高雄亞裔市公衛理事長蔡振峰"},{"start":8080.314,"end":8093.529,"text":"蘇昭偉,我們算鄰居,因為東港安太運我常常去了我小朋友是在成大牙醫系,這沒有錯,不過他是權貴之子他的未來完全不用煩惱所以我不是為了他"},{"start":8095.334,"end":8108.963,"text":"那我就練稿好了,這樣控制時間其實法,我們說法律,法律今天主要重點是在立法院,所以我們要討論法律那法就是依照情理而生,那也就是符合人民的需求和福祉"},{"start":8109.984,"end":8131.017,"text":"但是我這邊要跟大家分享一個就是因為我常常都在研究牙科經濟學牙科醫療市場它存在一個高度供應誘導需求的現象你嘴巴有多少顆蛀牙你自己不知道我們跟你講有幾顆你就有幾顆所以越多的供應者就會創造更多的疾病這個在台灣都會區的牙科健保數據已經很明顯的呈現"},{"start":8131.897,"end":8160.059,"text":"所以全世界的先進國家都會針對醫療人員的人數做限制及品質管控那我們中華民國當然也是如此那今年學測的IC分數已經超越醫科背後其實還有很多的大環境因素也聽到很多我高中的同學醫師醫科同學在跟我抱怨那這個東西產生的產業消長也代表更多的新興學子想要進入這個超級載門"},{"start":8161.88,"end":8181.431,"text":"但是我們發現說過去10年我們國內誕生了4000位左右的牙醫系畢業生來取得牙醫師國考資格但透過我們現行的學歷採證制度卻也誕生了將近2000位海外的各種管道的畢業生他們也同樣取得牙醫師的國考資格"},{"start":8182.572,"end":8205.747,"text":"那如果不是每年50位慈禧民流的限制讓部分學員打退堂鼓或滋留在海外那上面這個數量因為更多這樣子合理嗎這邊我們是公聽會那我在地方公會擔任理事已經超過20年那現在當然是理事長但我也擔任過中華牙醫學會的監事會召集人還有牙醫師公會全國聯合會的理監事"},{"start":8207.068,"end":8226.625,"text":"所以我對牙科的生態非常的清楚也可以理解為什麼目前牙醫師公會的全聯會還有基層的會會跟我們基層的會員名義會有如此大落差這個議題在只要只要是做問卷調查基層的牙醫師會員的問卷通常都是九成對這個議題是有意見的"},{"start":8228.146,"end":8243.201,"text":"但是這也或許是當初執政者訊息錯誤的來源因為你們都跟工會的那些人在一起那導致一些政策上的不周全那高雄的第一個偏鄉醫療站是在甲仙那個是我在23年前建立的"},{"start":8243.982,"end":8267.736,"text":"到今天仍然是無牙一箱那為什麼健保都已經實施30年了牙科做六分區小總而言27年了偏鄉和弱勢醫療仍然沒有解決其實問題一直都是一個那就是缺乏長期的經濟誘因同儕制約一開始很好用但是到後來弱勢族群跟地區就會變成民主暴力下的犧牲者"},{"start":8269.014,"end":8273.973,"text":"會員在都會區占絕大多數怎麼可能會讓對自己收入減少的方案"},{"start":8275.68,"end":8301.346,"text":"會通過呢所以同台制約其實我認為是有疑慮的所以這個時候公權力介入資源分配是最好的方法更何況牙科還有自費醫療這個族群地區差異性非常大的因素我們看台北市牙醫師的人數就知道了有3000多位大安區的牙醫診所數量比7-11還多"},{"start":8302.643,"end":8322.776,"text":"那健跑資源分配應該要考慮的是醫療經濟因素尤其是自費醫療市場弱勢地區和弱勢族群和地區必須要公權力介入讓這個地區職業的醫療人員有等同於甚至高於都會區的收入才能夠有長期的經濟誘因讓醫事人員往偏鄉流動"},{"start":8324.495,"end":8352.517,"text":"公務預算直接預注在弱勢族群及地區例如醫療站設置、設備、耗材、醫療人員、輔助人員的薪資透過直接預算的重分配或者是弱勢醫療加成加成就是我們健保點子的加成這樣子才有辦法減少都會區醫師人力過剩所產生的創造醫療現象我一直在強調創造醫療因為只要人力過多就會創造更多的蛀牙"},{"start":8353.217,"end":8377.133,"text":"那最忌諱的就是什麼短期的公費牙醫短期讓大量的菜鳥牙醫師去從事所謂的偏鄉醫療本質上就是背離醫療貧權偏鄉及弱勢不是吃冷公民他們應該要透過制度面來獲得資深的好醫師而不是這種快閃的菜鳥公費醫這樣子短期的公費醫他們時間到了還是會離開那這一波來了下一波在哪裡"},{"start":8381.529,"end":8409.084,"text":"我在医院担任牙科部主任在区域教学院担任牙科部主任超过20年也指导过数十位海外的牙医师习海外的牙医师实习课程那我必须坦承我的机构是缺乏各科的专科组织医师所以我并没有提供好完整的训练那我相信其他跟我同级一样的训练机构也是如此所以我们国内是否有足够的量能可以训练大量的海外牙医令人质疑"},{"start":8409.924,"end":8424.398,"text":"海外牙醫認證正義已經不是兩年了它是20年16年前就已經爆發第一次的醫學院學生大遊行那考選部2010年在業務報告也指出外國學歷回國的畢業生逐年攀升"},{"start":8426.48,"end":8440.052,"text":"2017年我們在外部的144的新聞資料也說各國的學制分歧所以他們也在2016年就公布了我們現行的國外大學及學院醫學系科學歷採認原則"},{"start":8442.114,"end":8457.254,"text":"那這個就是我們現行今天的一個爭議所在我想這個問題的核心並不是法而是要思考一下如果過去四十年誕生四千個本國卻有兩千個外國海外的學生這樣子是不是合理"},{"start":8458.055,"end":8486.725,"text":"那如果大家覺得不合理那就要修法讓他去合理其實我們人民並不懂這些修法的繁文褥解那如果說一個問題會爭議這麼久那是不是有行政怠惰或者是讓外界認為是有意而為之獨立特定權貴人士之嫌人民真的不太懂那些東西我們希望說立法院好好思考這或許也是執政者展現照顧弱勢實現公平正義核心價值的一個最好的機會"},{"start":8492.126,"end":8499.968,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝蔡理事長那繼續我們請蕭小林女士是學生的家長代表委員各位在座的各位大家好"},{"start":8510.768,"end":8533.434,"text":"我今天來這邊我先講一下我的小孩我的小孩是日本然後我在這邊要先跟大家講一件很重要的事情大家講波波波蘭出了一個居立夫人尼亞德的諾貝爾獎每一個整個本土小牙跟我們的媒體用波波兩個字來污蔑所有在國海外念書的牙醫師們"},{"start":8535.769,"end":8545.854,"text":"為什麼要用這種歧視的方式然後你們知道嗎當你們用撥撥這個字眼在媒體上面發言的時候國外是怎麼看你們的身為那種所謂的頂級的所謂的精英的明明教授說他是經過學測通過的那個才是真正的精英百分之一的精英的人用這種發言用這種羞辱性的字眼來羞辱所有在海外念書的"},{"start":8566.655,"end":8588.432,"text":"好 那我要再講一下我要再加下來 我要講一件很重要的事情今天我自來立法院立法院是全國最高的立法機構我不知道你們今天開這個會的法源依據在哪裡 為什麼因為 請看一看我給的資料看我給的資料 首先這邊是"},{"start":8591.17,"end":8597.194,"text":"麻煩給我那個立法院公報的資料來我練給大家聽立法院公報111卷第51期第81期這個是當年111年的時候5月份的時候5月底的時候通過的三讀通過的附帶決議的修正案裡面來我練給大家聽我怕大家看不懂字"},{"start":8616.227,"end":8633.2,"text":"國外學歷通過國考牙醫師階段第一階段等待臨床實作選配分發的人數逐年提升然而近年來每年公告的名額僅50人現行等待分發者需等待之時程最長恐怕超過10年"},{"start":8634.581,"end":8649.352,"text":"實不利社會專業人士有效運用衛福部本與亞伊斯人力管理職責應規劃適當之人力彈性運用選用機制例如投入偏遠鄉鎮服務"},{"start":8652.712,"end":8667.406,"text":"這個上面白紙黑字寫在這邊當年吳玉琴是衛環委員會的召委她親口在立法院的時候詢問陳時中前衛福部長我也不想說對對對我們應該要這樣讓他們等10點實在是不應該再來後面第二頁"},{"start":8674.758,"end":8681.842,"text":"那個立法院的那個 再來第二頁的說有關於司法四之一條修正案第一項第二款括號落入條款請選為民國111年12月31日以前已於該國家或地區之一原則"},{"start":8692.208,"end":8709.008,"text":"然後基於信賴管理原則信賴保護原則要求衛福部與修法通過後應邀集教育部及考選部盡速修正依司法施行細則並於您規定該落日期限所指之入學包括取得入學許可"},{"start":8710.316,"end":8728.736,"text":"大家聽好了111年以前入學的人都可以我們都符合落日條款我的小孩子111年考過了現在排名當初他跟我講邱玉婷跟我說媽媽你的兒子排名483名我要等10年以上因為一年只給50個"},{"start":8730.538,"end":8747.101,"text":"再來 鑑於國人於中華民國102年1月1日後赴九大地區國家就讀獨立醫學院系 牙醫系學系畢業 因反國醫師牙醫師考試資格認定的爭議聽清楚爭議即已經通過第一階國家考試後等待實習分發時間過長等問題敬請衛福部與本法修正通過後順利解決實習問題"},{"start":8760.815,"end":8788.878,"text":"請問一下四連六解決事情為什麼因為當初吳益晴有問陳時中說現在111年以前符合這個落日條款的人總共有多少人包括考過一階等還有將回來要考過一階等111年以前通過回來的人總共只有一千人我再講一遍只有一千人到今年七月還在考過的人在今年七月考過的人大概要等到八百多名"},{"start":8790.011,"end":8807.388,"text":"那請問一下你們這個三讀通過的附帶決議你們可以不實施更好笑的事情是我看到這個你們今天寫的什麼因施法施行細則上面寫說來最後來大家手上都有這一份請看一下"},{"start":8808.169,"end":8820.218,"text":"第二 實習名額偏鄉基調計畫 國外牙醫系畢業生與臨床實作訓練選配分化名額 自103年至114年 每年為死50名請問一下 你們的附帶決議通過的東西 申讀通過的東西 你們都可以不實施你們現在跟我講這個 違法違到底 立法委你們幹嘛選既然這樣子 你們就宣佈獨裁好了吧"},{"start":8833.686,"end":8839.468,"text":"你們逼著我們去打行政訴訟打完行政訴訟你們現在還要開這種會是在幹嘛再來你們知道你們是怎麼激怒我們的來看一下許書祥那個考試院的負責提名人這個他說那個許書祥說他說你看一開始他說波波醫生引發正反論戰考試院副院長被提名許書祥竟然表示如果本國"},{"start":8863.536,"end":8884.174,"text":"醫師足夠優先考量但也不要因為個案全盤否定相信能通過國家考試後面衛福部有專業人士再來我這一句講完就好了再來許醫師想說因為亞醫師通過第一階段之後回來你也有辦法實習如果等五年資格就會廢掉因此也有人直接在國外就"},{"start":8885.431,"end":8909.621,"text":"醫師法裡面規定六年如果大家在座是醫師 牙醫師都在醫師法裡面那是民法規定六年之後如果沒有考過一階第二階段就是作廢請問一下你讓我等十年今天是民進黨執政你們可以違法到底哪一天換國民黨執政的時候他只要跟我講一句說我是醫法行政我的這些資格全部都沒了我不打行政事務我要幹嘛你們今天不要講在這裡講的這些冠冕堂堂的話"},{"start":8913.642,"end":8922.388,"text":"當一個立法委員 你在座蘇清泉委員你當過多少屆了 立法委員你很清楚這個東西是違法違憲到底的再來 陳時中跟這些本土小孩一他為了要選台北市長 他怎麼跟他們說我跟你們說 那個決議 附帶決議是最沒用的是反對人做最沒用的啦我跟你們說 那個行政院有一百項的可以有一百項的理由 不要實行附帶決議你們不要在乎這個東西 關號門比較重要"},{"start":8944.52,"end":8959.566,"text":"我再講一遍 一個衛福部長可以名著在會議裡面跟全國牙醫師聯合會 跟本土小孩醫這是台加州圖利特定團體 我們等於權貴我們很可憐 我們是弱勢啦我們的小孩子 欸 這是我的國家考試欸我們第一階段考完之後我要考第二階段欸怎麼會有這麼無良的政府 通過了附帶決議你不要跟我講這些 我的小孩子不是波波 給他甘皮"},{"start":8973.991,"end":8986.615,"text":"你給我閉嘴我再講一遍這是我的權益你憑什麼剝奪我的考試權我的第一階段我的第二階段笑死人了你不要講那個有的不要的話"},{"start":8988.649,"end":9011.497,"text":"我再講一遍今天你們在公園一點都不合法你們憑什麼來跟我交息是知行細則醫師法和母法你們都不實施的復道決議可以說 公開的說我終於懂了 為什麼因為民進黨當年是全面執政嘛立法員都是他們的嘛啊現在呢 啊輸了啊就要倒大罷免笑死人了我從來沒看到這種幹政府好 好 好"},{"start":9022.856,"end":9023.999,"text":"我們現在休息六分鐘"},{"start":9050.96,"end":9069.232,"text":"唉唷 你們這些啊 人家你說你說 一個百分之一的人通過學測 他們才是最真實的在座各位 啊 風火力量實驗 唉唷 在座他還說 這個活考 人家都通過 他們說 凱琳大學考照律是百分之百"},{"start":9071.314,"end":9092.207,"text":"你們這些都是 他們頭腦沒有憲法你們通過頭腦都沒有憲法因為你們都不看上 是他們要跑後補牌生產生產穩定我們沒有嗆別人不是台大的喔 請不要抹開我們喔你違法成這樣子 現在還在開什麼公民會公民會是合法的"},{"start":9100.692,"end":9125.679,"text":"我不是甜貴 我很弱智很可憐在日本留學要一千萬 一千萬一千萬的諾貞喔一千萬的諾貞回法發展庇護 要來這在建成的水庫有財就夠了他老婆爸爸"},{"start":9128.904,"end":9153.984,"text":"華族家族你都不認識 你們看我這種 這種爛的政治你們應該對戴拜崇禮很好啊 他們也不懂我們這個角色戴拜崇禮怎麼出戴拜崇禮 日本人 戴拜崇禮 你看這樣啊沒有戴拜崇禮 你看這樣啊我拿 我拿那個花屎戴拜崇禮 我一起來罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你 罵你"},{"start":9160.825,"end":9186.184,"text":"什麼世界?欺負人欺負人總是欺負人記者定義是理論我的雜誌裡面是不是破了嗎?"},{"start":9187.95,"end":9211.009,"text":"你們那麼厲害 你們都不要去指泰國人啦 不准考試說中文 沒關係 大家考英文就這樣就有鑑別度了沒有鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別度 鑑別"},{"start":9218.064,"end":9225.65,"text":"開始通過,從頭到尾馬上,開始通過,都可以,都可以,都可以,都可以,都可以,都可以,"},{"start":9240.499,"end":9248.941,"text":"其實有時候要幫你取膜或是口腔檢查這個東西我覺得可以有自身治療的"},{"start":9268.829,"end":9278.773,"text":"所以我才覺得 其實我們從頭到尾都沒有支持說你把監管機制做出來也不要說有些東西放太對台灣人那麼嚴"},{"start":9289.398,"end":9298.305,"text":"我記得他們大學的確是會有些學院去看病的但是其實他們應該說他們的量是足以跟台灣去相比然後重點是說假設你這些東西這一整年遠距"},{"start":9313.115,"end":9328.702,"text":"那你OD好了,他算是OD那也不行啦對,所以其實我們就是說你把你遠距放掉的部分你回去補一下你不要回來之後你不會,我們還用醫院的資源去勸你你遇到的那種對啊對啊這遠距這好遠距,我們不能承受我剛剛說認命的標準"},{"start":9332.523,"end":9339.067,"text":"因為太多他們一定會稍微顧問規定 因為他們剛打交道開車 他們教育部長大家都不講規定"},{"start":9351.354,"end":9355.336,"text":"然後你六一天後再做最最最最最最最最最最最最最"},{"start":9380.485,"end":9390.107,"text":"我們學藝很強,我們可以確保他有一個人能慢慢跟我們一起因為你可能靠天才會考驗他,可能他還是要提到東西這些人他也需要他肯定的這個"},{"start":9408.291,"end":9422.084,"text":"這過程吧 我們畢業之後 當一些同學就有課啊 或是一些學分啊 這些東西都要努力 要培訓一下這個北京大驗室 因為我們每次考的 他們都已經很熟悉了所以我們也要感恩 而且不要太多故事"},{"start":9430.231,"end":9438.755,"text":"所以我覺得說 假設我們不給你詳細的監管不考的資產一定來讓你他們要主持所以說變得很難主持超額發布這種內閣不正義 內部不正義 內部不正義"},{"start":9456.342,"end":9459.785,"text":"這張圖是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,"},{"start":9475.174,"end":9475.194,"text":"這個茶館"},{"start":9504.018,"end":9504.838,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":9533.24,"end":9550.575,"text":"好好好,大家歸位我們要繼續開會啦不錯,今天大家都很坑憤齁繼續我們請葉勤委員發言"},{"start":9565.468,"end":9593.003,"text":"各位專家學者還有衛福部跟教育部的我是立法委員林月琴我覺得源自於制度所發生的爭議當然要用制度來解決因為今天針對國外牙醫跟醫學學歷的那個認證制度我覺得聚焦在制度是不是完善是不是能夠跟國際接軌同時也要回應社會普遍關心的一個問題就是說我們能不能給"},{"start":9593.843,"end":9612.311,"text":"民眾足夠的健康保障是否提供學生清楚合理的升學跟職業入境而且能不能消弭家長跟學生的錯誤期待我覺得這件事情是要來解決的過去我們台灣的學生取得國外"},{"start":9612.991,"end":9627.937,"text":"醫科跟牙醫的學歷管道包括美國、加大這邊列了蠻多學校澳洲、紐西蘭、南非、新加坡跟香港不只是今年飽受爭議的中歐跟東歐國家在現行規定下"},{"start":9628.547,"end":9646.916,"text":"每一年開放50個實習名額給這些學生排隊人數超過600人至少要12年才排得到那中歐東歐特別事實上是波瀾之所以飽受爭議我剛才也很贊成說我們不可以把這全部的國外的這個亞裔留學都成為這樣子波波亞裔這樣似乎有一點"},{"start":9647.452,"end":9673.246,"text":"不太恰當因為有來自不同的一些國家不過的確過去波蘭之所以飽受爭議是原因在當地的部分學校學歷門檻非常的寬鬆實習的時數不足而且台灣因應的學歷考試也很寬鬆那面對這個爭議政府以嚴格的學歷審查限制實習的名額提高國考的門檻為管理制度的建立方向"},{"start":9674.146,"end":9685.813,"text":"那台灣的牙醫系的確門檻非常非常的高與醫科並列醫學院的榜首入局率只有千分之三2025年招生大概人數只有391位可是課程時數6960小時加上實習超過8000小時才能畢業"},{"start":9693.997,"end":9715.013,"text":"畢業後通過國考得以執業國考的入取率就是7.4%相較於國外如果國內的學費是相對比較低的那當然競爭非常激烈可是相較之下呢近年飽受爭議的當中東歐的那個牙醫學系入學的資格呢比較缺乏公信力的鑑別制度然後沒有名額的限制"},{"start":9715.433,"end":9730.778,"text":"所以部分的學校台籍學生比例高達到6成那課程的實習時數也不一定也不一致那有些部分學校才2000小時那學歷審查不一定事實上是符合台灣普遍的標準返國後可申請國考跟實習"},{"start":9733.258,"end":9751.327,"text":"那問題的根本在於台灣過去缺乏一套制度性的標準讓出國學生留學的學生有所依循造成不論學生在國外學了什麼回國只要通過實習國考就可以執業的結果所以這樣子的一個爭議具體來說就是過去"},{"start":9753.328,"end":9770.437,"text":"我們的制度缺乏課程實習授課方式學歷驗證這四項確定學歷真假的鑑別制度是沒有做的所以單靠國家考試來鑑別專業能力尤其是台灣補教業比較發達民眾普遍有"},{"start":9770.997,"end":9796.44,"text":"透過補習來準備考試的經驗這當然也會使得歸國學生受到一些質疑那我個人認為是我們應該要制度的合理化不應該事實上不要去擋人家求學而是要建立一套能夠兼顧公平專業透明的審查制度我們國人如果出去國外求學難道回來不能"},{"start":9798.914,"end":9814.258,"text":"職業嗎所以可是反而事實上那當然也要符合水準因為畢竟醫學事實上是要救人的或者是要維護國人的健康的所以我認為要建立一套能夠兼顧公平專業透明的審查制度也要考慮這些學生畢業後的就業學習跟醫療責任的接軌機制"},{"start":9820.12,"end":9847.429,"text":"这是要去做的先进国家好像美国英国澳洲新加坡都有明确的医学院的认可名单并搭配考试语言鉴定跟学历的检核的制度相较于台湾真的事实上我们的制度非常的落后所以去年11月25号公布的医师法施行细则就是要去建立制度也试图要跟社会沟通用具体的政策尽可能拉近"},{"start":9848.129,"end":9851.572,"text":"我們跟社會期待之間的距離所以目前大概"},{"start":9856.618,"end":9881.748,"text":"已經開始在做不過大家我想回應民眾的一些疑慮政策還有一些進步的空間就是說所以首先施行細則的第10條的規定應盡速公佈那個認定名單進一步我們的期待是未來能夠以正面的表列方式提出認定的學校名單第二個是國考還是要以筆試為主的話那筆試通常無法體現專業技術應該偵測數科"},{"start":9885.609,"end":9905.123,"text":"模擬病例的考試題目 第三英文能力不能只用來排除中文課程而應該要求醫學生具有一定以上的英文能力跟好跟那個國際接軌 第四我們的學歷審查不能夠依靠教育部跟衛福部應該委託專業機構成立全國性的醫學學歷"},{"start":9907.764,"end":9931.806,"text":"審查的機構那第五建立職業前先適用或限制職業範圍的實習機構在通過國考後第二層的能力把關建立制度所以最終的目標還是希望能夠建立與國際接軌的台灣版本的制度而不是全盤照抄我們要保障的是醫療品質學生的權益制度公平這三者缺一不可以上謝謝"},{"start":9935.572,"end":9937.873,"text":"謝謝林委員最後一個是吳國志議員吳國志醫師是我們醫師全聯會政策會的召集人"},{"start":9949.909,"end":9964.93,"text":"趙偉好還有各位先進大家好我是醫師公會全國聯合會醫療政策委員會的趙偉我國是醫師我是所以拜託趙偉把我排在後面其實我是要講一個其他方面的問題"},{"start":9966.372,"end":9989.684,"text":"那對於我會有三個一個是我要對於這個醫療法這個那個實境系統的修正做一個建議第二個是就是我要做一個提醒第三個我要做一個要求建議的部分在這一次的修法第17條上面第17條這邊有提到就是說因為那個現在已經放寬了這個我們醫師的職登"},{"start":9991.825,"end":10018.673,"text":"有在這個長照號服務機構跟精神復健機構這些非醫療機構做直燈所以17條這邊也做了一些修改不過我們決定會這邊還是希望放寬直燈其實對於民眾健康照護是好的我們是樂見可是現在因為分級醫療做得不夠徹底而且常常會被利用就像之前我們也是提到的比如說學校的醫務室"},{"start":10020.473,"end":10027.71,"text":"拿來開了一個診所對外營業他已經失去他醫護室設立的功能"},{"start":10029.192,"end":10054.051,"text":"那另外還有一些所以我們是希望能夠直登在這些非醫療機構的時候他應該線索他所能夠做的事情做他應該做的事情而不是就算他要附帶去看一些外面的病人也應該要以直登的場所的你的功能取向來照顧你應該要照顧的這些對象這是我們希望能夠擺在這個法裡面的第二個我是要做一個提醒因為"},{"start":10056.598,"end":10069.926,"text":"大家知道這個之前清大中興中山三個學系設立的所謂的公費學士後的醫學系那當時撥的名額是由外部的這個公費的計畫撥容額給他的當時"},{"start":10077.51,"end":10106.131,"text":"當時設立的時候其實醫界是反對的因為我們的醫療人力其實都有一個很科學的實證就是在國會院那邊都有做之前熊昭教授提出來的一個一個證據來做的基礎其實我有去參與那個當時的規劃其實做的具體名義包括本地的這個勞基法怎麼樣限制怎麼樣規定什麼這些通通的擺進去那個工時這些弄出來的發現醫師的人力其實是"},{"start":10107.272,"end":10128.705,"text":"夠的只是換不均而已不換寡換不均所以當時在設立這三個醫學系的時候醫界已經提醒了而且教育部那邊其實那時候是在疫情的時候其實我得到的訊息是T-MEC的專犯說其實在這整個過程中也受到很大的委屈"},{"start":10129.861,"end":10144.238,"text":"他甚至透過醫學院系校長的一個會議當中提出來他的報告所以當時一定有一些壓力存在不過過了就過了可是當時我記得部裡也非常"},{"start":10145.407,"end":10169.977,"text":"很明白的告訴這三個學校這個計畫是短期的計畫要close的我知道今年的招生已經把這計畫已經用完了我只是要做第二個就是這要一個提醒這三個院校的容額以後怎麼來這個要好好的去深思我們並不希望不要再夾帶其他的容額進來"},{"start":10171.357,"end":10195.095,"text":"如果真的你要讓這三個系一直永續存在的話那可能要從其他的醫學系這邊把融合撥過去因為當時我們一直提醒 可是當時又有各種的理由什麼我們是這個高科技的 可是當時高科技的派到變相去服務這就有點矛盾了嘛 當時是這樣 當時是為了要過而過的這是我第二個是要跟大家做一個提醒的"},{"start":10195.575,"end":10224.303,"text":"那第三個就是我要做一個建議因為大家都知道現在醫師人力醫療人員的人力其實是非常的不足不是只有藥師喔包括檢驗師、放射師通通不足可是我們發現一個現象他們的考照率是非常非常的低的那我們這個教育到底出了什麼問題呢教育部管這個招生的名額考選部管考試"},{"start":10225.629,"end":10253.262,"text":"可是大辦學辦得好不好他教出來學生考照率這麼低我看關門算了那是不是應該把這個考照率高的系所讓把融合儀給他好好教育我們的子弟大家去看看那個那個網路上的像那個醫檢師的醫劑系的同學都在那邊抽乾膠他說我來考這個做什麼"},{"start":10254.485,"end":10259.07,"text":"考照率這麼低 我要好幾年所以這個事情其實應該要重視"},{"start":10261.562,"end":10284.43,"text":"所有東西都要按照這個我們的科學的實證我們需要多少人力而且另外一個我要提醒就是說很多的常用國外的一個例子其實台灣有台灣的生態台灣的醫療環境是不一樣的就像國外比如說美國好了一個很大的偏遠地區你開車看個病兩個鐘頭所以你要做視訊那台灣呢"},{"start":10285.51,"end":10306.273,"text":"基層醫療的部件非常的多你不能說我這個醫學中心我用視訊視訊到可是那個病人的旁邊就有一個診所在了你不叫他去看這是這個本末倒置的所以這還是要提醒在做醫療評估的時候其實這台灣的國情也是要好好的考慮的那這是提醒大家的"},{"start":10306.593,"end":10324.888,"text":"那另外我也很感佩這個其實從意志法47條修正之後其實就是從一個往趨延的方向在做的那這一次的修改我不曉得這個法令上面是怎麼解釋的因為我看起來其實是變嚴的剛剛有提到就是說當地國政府的學校權責機關及認定這個東西是"},{"start":10330.976,"end":10357.249,"text":"是頓號然後這是AND所以我不曉得這邊有沒有法律的這個專家在這個意思就是說其實認定的醫學系科入學資格要與國內同級相當畢業學校要與國內同級相當休業期限要與國內相當休息課程要與國內同級學校相當當地國認證的這個全學校認證的教育也要與國內的相當那如果是這些的再加進去"},{"start":10358.289,"end":10364.115,"text":"感覺是比較嚴那這個是不是由法律的人來跟我們做一項解釋那這以上是前面的意見 以上謝謝好 謝謝吳國志醫師那我們學者專家跟委員花言都完畢了請行政機關做整體的回應我想"},{"start":10383.496,"end":10387.737,"text":"今天有來的都發言一下先請次長來回應首先還是要謝謝趙偉安排今天的會議讓我們有機會來聆聽大家不同的意見那作為我們整個在實施的裡面參考那以下就簡單的摺要那跟大家做一些簡單的回應有關於偏鄉平權的部分這是我們很關心的部分因為"},{"start":10412.645,"end":10433.784,"text":"剛才簡志成委員有特別的提到偏鄉的這些的平權的部分那偏鄉民眾是我們心裡面一直放不下的這一塊那這一塊的話我們會在一個努力的追求一個大家比較可以接受而且能夠照顧到偏鄉民眾的這個制度方法來做那我們現在的這裡面的一個偏鄉計畫也送到行政院裡頭也是往這方面來努力"},{"start":10435.726,"end":10458.719,"text":"等行政院核定下來之後我們就會具以實施另外陳昭之委員所提到一個透明透明性與一致性的這部分的話我們完全認同那在這部分的話我們也會來思考以後我們在整個相關的作業或審查的這部分的話是不是能夠盡量往這方面來進行那另外一個所另外委員還有另外還各位專家學者提到說"},{"start":10460.093,"end":10484.833,"text":"這裡面總量管制的部分我們當然還是會總量管制因為醫療人力的確是珍貴的一個人力社會要投出很多的資源那總量管制的部分我們也會非常訓練非常注意那同時對於臨床訓練資源是不是充足這部分我們會特別加以留心因為臨床訓練的充足的時候這時候才可以訓練出好的醫師那這裡面另外還有一個"},{"start":10489.076,"end":10517.837,"text":"大家所提到這醫師的養成的部分的話要把它做好這部分我們也會來尊重那另外剛才那個吳委員有提到說相關的這裡面相關的一些措施我們要做好一些的管理的措施管理的管理的一些的配套措施的話這部分謝謝提醒這部分我們會持續來做努力那也歡迎大家如果說覺得說有哪些地方我們似乎是有超出我們管理範圍的部分那各位也可以反映給我們知道那拜託一下還是要具體因為我們不可能"},{"start":10518.257,"end":10532.094,"text":"每一個講的一個很籠統的一個對象的時候我們要來做了解是不是說有失序的現象的話是有點困難因此呢不管是各位是在檢舉或反應的時候能夠更具體更聚焦這樣子會更好那另外"},{"start":10534.366,"end":10556.482,"text":"病人權利的部分是我們最關心的部分那病人權利也是我們整個做醫師人力裡面的一個核心那這部分的話這病人的我們所做的這些的還是會以病人權利來作為一個出發點來做考量那保障偏鄉的這資源的部分我們也會努力的往這方面盡量資源往這方面來移住"},{"start":10559.83,"end":10577.43,"text":"另外一個有關於大家關心一個遠距的部分的話那這部分的話我們會還是會考量我們國內的一個特殊的特殊的一個國情來做裡面的一個來做裡面的一個分配跟來做裡面的一個相關的相關的規範那至於說大家所提到遠距教學的部分的話"},{"start":10578.471,"end":10593.791,"text":"遠距教學的部分的話這幾門其實還是要審查的這裡面不是他講說遠距我們就來買單不是這樣子的因為其實這些其實所規範的這些東西其實都還有審查的一個機制那當然另外還有其實"},{"start":10598.015,"end":10613.453,"text":"另外大家所提到的書籍既往的時候應該是還不至於因為我們這裡面主要是按照舊的這裡面把它做一個更完整的一個規範做一個更完整的規範那盡量想辦法把它用個清楚的字眼把它表達給清楚那當然是有些地方可能還是不夠不夠"},{"start":10615.995,"end":10636.654,"text":"不夠理想那這部分我們會持續的來來傾聽大家的意見看看怎麼樣把它改的一個更好那另外一個教學品質的部分的話那這部分的話我想不是只有我們關心而已教育部也是會非常關心這裡面的品質我們會跟教育部這部分共同來來注意這個現象另外一個"},{"start":10639.571,"end":10646.272,"text":"照顧弱勢的部分的話那這個尤其是偏向照顧弱勢的部分這同樣的我們也會來特別的加以注意"},{"start":10650.492,"end":10676.568,"text":"另外一個剛才林月琴委員所提到的要制度的合理公平專業還有透明的這些的制度的話那這部分的確是我們也是我們追尋的一個對象那施行細則的部分我們跟各位報告一下施行細則就是我們往這方面來努力的一個開始那這裡面的話當然是裡面有一些的可以改善的空間的話我想我們是敞開心胸來聽聽大家的意見那至於說最後面所提到的"},{"start":10678.334,"end":10703.98,"text":"修改的這部分的話其實憑良心講修改的部分的話這裡面其實是一個重點是一個明確化是一個明確化最主要的是在明確化而且把法律的位階為什麼要提升就是要讓確認大家都是依照往這方面來做靠攏那我簡單的做一個補充那因為大家所提到的意見我都有詳細記下來那沒有辦法一一回應的部分各位放心我們還是會仔細的來做檢討以上報告謝謝好"},{"start":10708.487,"end":10712.649,"text":"謝謝次長那接下來我們請劉業平市長報告剛剛我們周次大概大方向的論述了布裡面的政策讓我大概就執行細節部分回應三點第一點是說其實在持國外學歷回來的學生要來考醫師執照在"},{"start":10736.161,"end":10758.684,"text":"中華民國政府裡面我們有三個部會要去做處理第一個是考選部他要處理的是醫師國考考試所以在要取得這個你要來考這個試之前你要先確認有這個學歷所以第二個部會其實就是教育部他要來確認這個學歷所以那經過我們三個部會因為用人單位叫做衛福部"},{"start":10759.565,"end":10766.771,"text":"考出來的人我要用所以經過我們這個三個部會教育部考選部跟會服部結果就說那"},{"start":10768.124,"end":10792.554,"text":"學歷確認的原則要在哪裡然後三方溝通的結果是修在醫師法施行細則所以今天的所有的為什麼今天連開會三個部會都要來的主要原因會在這裡然後醫師法施行細則其實誠如剛剛有很多的先進在指教我就就裡面的東西來說明第二點第二點的部分的話其實有的爭議是說"},{"start":10795.075,"end":10815.972,"text":"在原本我們叫做那個國外大學或醫學院醫學系科學歷裁認原則這個裁認原則的部分的話是因為之前的修法所以從106年的1月1號開始這個原則在法律的位階其實就是比不算不算法律"},{"start":10816.673,"end":10836.694,"text":"他只是一個行政指導而為了提升位階的部分我們就拉到醫師法師行系這也是為什麼我們邱部長講說修法之後變嚴因為在法律的效力裡面他提升了那第二件事情也就是我第三點在講的是說大家在針對裡面的內容產生了一些異議譬如說什麼譬如說"},{"start":10838.455,"end":10864.602,"text":"我們原本就把106年的這個原則把它放到我們的施行細則的第13條裡面主要改了兩款第一款其實我講的不是按照那個順序的第一款第二款我在講的改變的主要改變有兩款然後第一個主要的改變其實是原本的那個裁判員的第五條的第九款說非經一般常態招生或入血管道"},{"start":10865.542,"end":10884.556,"text":"這個部分也就是剛剛蕭女士在那裡就是很生氣的在講是說他們去走了行政訴訟跟救濟在行政法庭裡面一直問我們說什麼叫做非經一般常態招審或入學管道那因為這產生了困擾所以我們就避其功於一役在這次修正裡面我們把第十款"},{"start":10885.56,"end":10912.014,"text":"我們修正成未有對外公開招生即由公開招生即由公開考試真實推薦或其他相當之方式入學以這樣的概念來處理一個法律不確定的原則然後第二點我們在修改的其實是原本的第五條的第七款他在講的就是遠距教學遠距教學就承如他第一件事情是全程的遠距本來就不行"},{"start":10912.774,"end":10934.322,"text":"部分學分的採認必須由考選部這邊再做一個原則的確認個案所以他們本來就會組成委員會個案來做審查然後個案的部分的話我們其實是109年到113年大家都很知道全球都是疫情全球疫情這邊其實是WHO有宣布全球的公衛緊急狀況"},{"start":10936.523,"end":10962.395,"text":"這個是既存的事實既存的事實在那時候去上學的學生其實也不會知道當時發生的狀況由國家來發動說其實在這個時間點暫停用視訊的這件事情本來就可以提出相關的資料來做佐證然後由個案來申請要回來考試的時候本來就會予以審查我簡單的做這三點回應以上"},{"start":10965.745,"end":10968.637,"text":"好 謝謝市長那接下來我們請口腔健康師張市長"},{"start":10977.743,"end":10995.736,"text":"朝偉及各位與會的代表午安我想就針對今天的公聽會的部分有關牙科的部分我就說明兩點首先第一點的話就是有關見習實習的部分其實事實上就是有關見習實習我們都是經過105年當時有開一個會就是國內牙醫院校及牙醫專業團體大家一起來開會這個是共事所以當時是將牙醫學系的課程內容及畢業學分數"},{"start":11007.324,"end":11024.178,"text":"民定債我就簡稱說當時的裁認原則那是民國105年定的那本次呢我們只是將學歷裁認原則的文字原封不動把它移到施行細則提升法律慰藉這是第一點那再來第二點的話大家非常關心有關"},{"start":11024.958,"end":11047.383,"text":"歐斯基的事情 其實牙醫師考試是考選部的全責我們依照考選部 那個名字很長所以我就簡稱考試規則它的副表一有列的應考資格今天不論是台灣本國的學歷或是持國外學歷的畢業生參加我國牙醫師的國考歐斯基並非現行的考試資格之一好 以上補充 謝謝"},{"start":11050.587,"end":11065.867,"text":"我們醫師法,所謂醫師是三個,西醫、中醫、亞醫,都是在醫師法的規範。那看起來西醫是沒什麼問題,中醫也沒什麼問題。那現在是亞醫學系這一邊,會很多的爭議。"},{"start":11068.403,"end":11095.225,"text":"我跟大家報告一個data現在台灣總共亞裔師現在現在一萬六千五百多位現在在職業然後國外回來的八百四十六位中山三千七高一三千六北一三千五國防醫學院的七百多個"},{"start":11096.468,"end":11117.12,"text":"中國一千多台大一千多所以國外回來的現在是八百四十幾個那現在開始一年抓五十個十年五百個二十年一千個那這邊會有人死掉啦這邊會淘汰嘛所以再怎麼弄三十年後"},{"start":11119.412,"end":11134.278,"text":"頂多是兩千個左右啦 三十年後所以會不會中招我不知道啦所以今天這個爭議 大家一起來面對不要講那些太偏激的都沒有用 我們好好來處理來 考選部專技考試師 師長你很中了 黃師長"},{"start":11150.113,"end":11150.915,"text":"謝謝謝謝召集委員我們開辦部對今天公聽會做簡單的說明"},{"start":11167.884,"end":11194.181,"text":"第一个就是刚刚很多在谈到才认学校是不是教育部参考名册这里我要说明一下就是医师法实行细则去年修正发布之后事实上并没有任何一个国外学历是教育部参考名册以外的学校"},{"start":11194.941,"end":11206.527,"text":"沒有那個後面說什麼那個當地政府才都沒有這個其實很簡單因為我們國外學藝採任原則106年開始實施一直到111年然後我們醫師法修正"},{"start":11216.646,"end":11239.224,"text":"然後一直到去年預施法施行細則才正式在修正那這個這段期間呢都是適用採認原則適用採認原則他就只有教育部的參考名字這個規定其實我個人會比較支持目前修法因為這個沒有擋到"},{"start":11241.824,"end":11263.645,"text":"完全擋不到有些民眾會關心的比如說東歐因為他們會完全照這個規定這個限制的話會擋到我們美國、日本這些國家"},{"start":11265.959,"end":11282.874,"text":"其實是在這段時間拉出來的,主要是Don't Order,全部都是在參考明確所以這次修正施行細則基本上可能會比較符合我們希望說"},{"start":11287.117,"end":11311.833,"text":"除了党泼泼之外是不是我们连其他国家都党有一些疑义的问题那第二个是远距礁学目前我们考验部开审议会受理的我们其实不是远距礁学的案子我们受理的是在疫情期间因为没有办法"},{"start":11313.394,"end":11338.114,"text":"如果回來台灣沒有辦法再回到當地學校是那段時間對方那個學校他認定這個課程他們可以採認只有這種案子其他都沒有了那個法源的依據其實在教育部109年他對全國各大學然後各機關做了一個函詩"},{"start":11339.655,"end":11354.124,"text":"在疫情期間是這樣子採認的目前有的狀況也只有那段時間的情況第三個要說明是說目前我們醫師牙醫師的應考資格"},{"start":11356.365,"end":11374.35,"text":"都是在醫師法還有施行細則裡面規定我們考驗部在審查應考資格都是依照醫師法施行細則還有我們衛生福利部的法院解釋我們從很嚴謹的來審查應考資格"},{"start":11377.891,"end":11400.484,"text":"包括剛剛有提到入血關刀其實現在施行系者也已經把入血關刀很明確的界定了那我們請考生在報名的時候他提出的證明文件就是要符合施行系者的那個規定逐每一個案子詳細來審查"},{"start":11402.321,"end":11430.251,"text":"那在最後就是我們環環部要說明是說整個醫師牙醫師國外學歷應考資格的審查我們隨時都會跟衛生福利部保持密切聯繫對於法律的適用我們也都是會隨時都請衛生福利部幫我們指導然後我們會配合來執行所以以上的報告請大家參考謝謝等一下等一下"},{"start":11430.891,"end":11445.393,"text":"那個剛剛有懷疑是醫師以外像藥師檢驗放射這些尤其是OTPT現在長照開始長照3.0開始需要很大的人力"},{"start":11446.374,"end":11471.696,"text":"那你要考科技的及格,你都十幾%怕死人,你救這些孩子去死喔?謝謝趙紀偉,這個案子我們有收到趙偉這邊的一個函我們很重視這個案子,那個統計數字我先說明,那個統計數字因為累積了很多年沒有及格的人"},{"start":11473.409,"end":11494.996,"text":"那個母數會一直在增加所以他的及格率就會比較低而是統計數字我要先這樣子做說明如果是以應屆畢業生來講的話只要你能夠從藥學系畢業基本上就可以卡上藥師他的及格率大概會到百分之百"},{"start":11496.952,"end":11522.815,"text":"沒有,因為我是說他剩下的那個母數,其實是過去幾年沒有及格的但是我們,我只是現在先就這個及格率的部分先做一個簡單的說明我們對於召集委員您的那個剛剛的指示呢我們不裡面很慎重所以我不會在這個時候就隨便給你答覆"},{"start":11529.473,"end":11532.762,"text":"謝謝我們請教育部高調司廖高璇市長"},{"start":11540.363,"end":11557.845,"text":"召委還有各位先進那教育部針對這次公聽會做兩點的一個回應第一點就是有關於我們辦理國外學歷裁認的一些相關的一個原則當中我們根據大學法第28條的一個授權部裡頭定有所謂的大學辦理國外學歷裁認辦法"},{"start":11560.127,"end":11587.708,"text":"這個辦法當中有提到參考名冊那剛才黃師長有提到為什麼學生都是拿參考名冊內所持有的一個學校所認列的一個學歷來申請國考最主要的原因參考名冊我們有兩個作用第一個作用是讓學生出國的時候的一個參考第二個就是大學在辦理招生或者是大學在辦理教師資格審定的時候的一個參考那我們參考名冊所收錄的"},{"start":11588.829,"end":11614.338,"text":"學校就是該國教育主管機關或專業團體認可的學校才會收到我們的參考名冊那為什麼我們在我們的規定裡頭有把參考名冊跟當地國教育主管機關或專業團體認可這兩個部分並列的原因是因為國外的學制也經常在改變就連國內也有相關診病的狀況所以不可能在收入"},{"start":11615.258,"end":11624.907,"text":"就是滾動式的收入不可能說馬上及時反映在參考名冊之列所以我們有列了這個所謂的當地國教育主管機關或專業團體認可的一個狀況來補充就是參考名冊如果當時這個學生入學時他的"},{"start":11632.794,"end":11652.68,"text":"學校的名稱沒有在這個參考名冊之上的話他只要經過我們外館認證說這個學校是當地國教育主管機關或專業團體認可的情形也可以作為他學歷得以採認的依據之一但是更實質的要去審認的是他的休業期限跟休息的課程"},{"start":11653.08,"end":11670.734,"text":"這也是在我們衣食法實行細則裡頭為什麼它的休業期限跟休息的課程要跟國內同類同級學校相當的最主要的一個原因所以這個部分可能要跟各位來做說明那當地國教育主管機關為什麼我會這樣子去陳述這樣的一個語詞因為像"},{"start":11672.836,"end":11690.46,"text":"法國它的大學主管學校有包括教育部、外交部、體育部那各國的狀況不一樣所以我們就寫學校權責機關那在美國它不是由聯邦的教育部來認可它是由當地的所謂的專業的評鑑團體來認可只要他們專業評鑑團體沒有認可的話學生是沒有辦法申請到就學貸款的"},{"start":11696.081,"end":11724.829,"text":"所以這個也是作為我們認可這個學校的依據之一第二個部分是要跟各位報告的是有關於我們學歷增試的部分我們學歷增試一直在配合醫師法的這個部分針對我們本來是叫做伊亞增試那後來在110年的時候我們也把中醫師這個部分納入到我們的伊亞增試國外大學學歷的伊亞增試的一個部分那目前舉辦的方式是採兩階段的一個增試方式"},{"start":11725.209,"end":11734.173,"text":"第一階段是鄙視 第二階段就是隱藏的一個真實那以上是我們教育部針對今天公聽會的簡要回應 謝謝"},{"start":11757.308,"end":11773.02,"text":"各位先進 大家好 那我們外交部的話 僅針對剛才有張理事長還有林委員提出的兩點 我們來做回應那第一點的話 張理事長有提到說 我們在驗證的時候會再看所謂的"},{"start":11774.281,"end":11802.254,"text":"出入境紀錄那這部分的話我們首先要澄清的是我們驗證的時候是主要是做形式上的驗證那就是以比對簽章的方式來確認說是否有經當地的權責機關有蓋章然後比對他的簽章是否屬實那對於他的實質的效力我們並不會做實質審查所以就是我們也不會說有看調閱他的出入境紀錄而且這出入境紀錄其實是由我們的內政部移民署那邊來做權責的"},{"start":11803.815,"end":11807.622,"text":"那这部分我们先做澄清然后第二部分的话"},{"start":11810.236,"end":11837.986,"text":"我們駐外管處除了做驗證以外呢也會依據大學辦理國外學歷財政辦法的第五以及第十二條規定來做相關的查證那只要有受理機關呢有做相關的查證的我們外管就會協助協查那過去一直以來我們也有接受外管接受到衛福部或者是各級大學有來做查證的工作那並不會說有所謂的過去十年來從來沒有查證的情形以上請做報告謝謝"},{"start":11841.523,"end":11858.278,"text":"好謝謝謝謝組長那委員陳清輝所提書面資料列入公報記錄那剛剛有兩位醫師的提出的意見我們也給他列入記錄這一本要不要這個放進去好"},{"start":11860.986,"end":11887.352,"text":"我們做以下結論依據立法院職權行使法再講一次立法院職權行使法所以不是亂搞的是雜雜實實的委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院前提委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考"},{"start":11888.852,"end":11908.566,"text":"我們會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料匯編成冊分送給全院的全體委員以及與會的政府機關代表學者專家來參與看起來爭議還是很大我們會請衛務部這邊再好好的來研議"},{"start":11910.487,"end":11919.49,"text":"那要怎麼做 再跟大家報告今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次公聽會到此結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"16735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16735","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd1c393f606ce943218bd03a951da4504bfdab1a38f0d348c0d35422f41642500a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-05T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:54:00+08:00","duration":12226,"影片長度":"03:23:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 - 11:54:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1943.6765937500002,"end":1947.2034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1947.42284375,"end":1950.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1953.3122187500003,"end":1974.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1974.3890937500003,"end":1980.0253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1980.1097187500002,"end":1983.6534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1983.9740937500003,"end":2003.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2003.4815937500002,"end":2008.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2008.3922187500002,"end":2011.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2013.80909375,"end":2023.9847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2024.22096875,"end":2024.8284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2024.91284375,"end":2037.3497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2037.72096875,"end":2043.3065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2043.6440937500001,"end":2046.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2046.6478437500002,"end":2070.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2070.20534375,"end":2075.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2076.34784375,"end":2078.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2078.87909375,"end":2080.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2080.6172187500006,"end":2081.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2081.8828437500006,"end":2087.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2087.85659375,"end":2089.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2089.74659375,"end":2090.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2090.35409375,"end":2098.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2098.72409375,"end":2104.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2105.1872187500003,"end":2114.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2115.2615937500004,"end":2126.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2126.19659375,"end":2128.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2128.25534375,"end":2128.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2128.8797187500004,"end":2129.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2129.7234687500004,"end":2137.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2137.51971875,"end":2140.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2141.0465937500003,"end":2144.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2148.5222187500003,"end":2149.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2149.16346875,"end":2149.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2149.1972187500005,"end":2149.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2149.3153437500005,"end":2149.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2149.4334687500004,"end":2152.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2149.5684687500006,"end":2149.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2155.9303437500002,"end":2160.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2160.6553437500006,"end":2164.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2167.1015937500006,"end":2168.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2171.28659375,"end":2172.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2174.9990937500006,"end":2176.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2178.7115937500002,"end":2181.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2183.16659375,"end":2186.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2188.5497187500005,"end":2192.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2195.1140937500004,"end":2198.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2200.7840937500005,"end":2203.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2205.69471875,"end":2208.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2211.1622187500006,"end":2215.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2218.09784375,"end":2221.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2223.8522187500002,"end":2225.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2228.2734687500006,"end":2229.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2231.26034375,"end":2234.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2236.8290937500005,"end":2238.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2238.7528437500005,"end":2242.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2243.3259687500004,"end":2245.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2247.1228437500004,"end":2247.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2249.51909375,"end":2250.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2251.7634687500004,"end":2256.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2258.66534375,"end":2261.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2262.6309687500006,"end":2264.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2265.12846875,"end":2265.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2265.9890937500004,"end":2268.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2268.92534375,"end":2271.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2280.97409375,"end":2284.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2284.7878437500003,"end":2285.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2285.98596875,"end":2304.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2305.7803437500006,"end":2305.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2306.69159375,"end":2326.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2326.7559687500006,"end":2328.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2328.7303437500004,"end":2364.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2364.91034375,"end":2385.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2385.64971875,"end":2391.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2392.5684687500006,"end":2394.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2395.18409375,"end":2397.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2398.18784375,"end":2422.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2423.0447187500004,"end":2427.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2427.78659375,"end":2435.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2435.5997187500006,"end":2443.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2443.2440937500005,"end":2462.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2462.32971875,"end":2464.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2464.3378437500005,"end":2466.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2467.25721875,"end":2468.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2468.9278437500006,"end":2477.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2477.97284375,"end":2480.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2480.82471875,"end":2481.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2482.32659375,"end":2521.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2521.32471875,"end":2532.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2536.3434687500003,"end":2537.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2537.6090937500003,"end":2541.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2542.46909375,"end":2547.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2548.8984687500006,"end":2551.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2552.47596875,"end":2560.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2561.6053437500004,"end":2565.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2566.0097187500005,"end":2571.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2571.4772187500002,"end":2573.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2574.12659375,"end":2579.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2588.3184687500006,"end":2591.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2598.4772187500002,"end":2615.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2615.58846875,"end":2616.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2616.83721875,"end":2619.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2619.43596875,"end":2628.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2621.9840937500003,"end":2622.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2623.7559687500006,"end":2624.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2628.9872187500005,"end":2629.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2629.1559687500003,"end":2632.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2633.29034375,"end":2637.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2637.6609687500004,"end":2647.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2648.17409375,"end":2651.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2651.3465937500005,"end":2664.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2658.48471875,"end":2659.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2659.51409375,"end":2660.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2665.8253437500007,"end":2666.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2667.2597187500005,"end":2673.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2673.4190937500007,"end":2682.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2683.13909375,"end":2695.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2696.70659375,"end":2698.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2699.1872187500003,"end":2700.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2701.2965937500003,"end":2710.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2710.93221875,"end":2712.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2713.8515937500006,"end":2715.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2717.2940937500007,"end":2720.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2718.0028437500005,"end":2718.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2720.33159375,"end":2727.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2727.5203437500004,"end":2731.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2731.60409375,"end":2738.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2737.7128437500005,"end":2738.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2738.28659375,"end":2738.3878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2738.3878437500007,"end":2738.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2738.9784687500005,"end":2739.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2739.95721875,"end":2743.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2740.46346875,"end":2740.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2743.28159375,"end":2743.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2744.8340937500006,"end":2755.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2756.37659375,"end":2765.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2765.75909375,"end":2767.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2768.89784375,"end":2778.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2780.17034375,"end":2781.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2782.09409375,"end":2784.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2784.03471875,"end":2794.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2792.40471875,"end":2793.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2794.0753437500007,"end":2794.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2794.2272187500002,"end":2797.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2798.31096875,"end":2828.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2805.9215937500003,"end":2806.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2810.59596875,"end":2812.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2815.2197187500005,"end":2815.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2828.55096875,"end":2831.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2828.5847187500003,"end":2829.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2832.36471875,"end":2838.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2839.1990937500004,"end":2845.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2840.66721875,"end":2842.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2846.1178437500002,"end":2857.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2857.3903437500003,"end":2865.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2866.48596875,"end":2873.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2873.77596875,"end":2877.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2878.82159375,"end":2884.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2884.86284375,"end":2893.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2894.36346875,"end":2901.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2901.0290937500004,"end":2901.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2902.6659687500005,"end":2914.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2907.50909375,"end":2907.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2907.9647187500004,"end":2909.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2909.26409375,"end":2909.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2909.6522187500004,"end":2909.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2913.41534375,"end":2914.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2914.98471875,"end":2919.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2920.6209687500004,"end":2922.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2921.85284375,"end":2924.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2924.1815937500005,"end":2928.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2928.8053437500002,"end":2929.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2929.02471875,"end":2929.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2929.4297187500006,"end":2929.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2929.7165937500004,"end":2936.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2936.97284375,"end":2951.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2952.0253437500005,"end":2952.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2954.2022187500006,"end":2958.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2957.12159375,"end":2959.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2960.4628437500005,"end":2982.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2982.7040937500005,"end":2993.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2993.03159375,"end":2996.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2996.3728437500004,"end":3007.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3007.0378437500003,"end":3007.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3007.62846875,"end":3007.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3007.7128437500005,"end":3007.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3008.03346875,"end":3008.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3008.05034375,"end":3030.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3029.2790937500004,"end":3030.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3030.6797187500006,"end":3030.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3030.9665937500004,"end":3031.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3031.48971875,"end":3031.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3031.7428437500002,"end":3034.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3034.4090937500005,"end":3034.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3034.5272187500004,"end":3035.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3034.5440937500007,"end":3037.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3037.5984687500004,"end":3037.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3037.9022187500004,"end":3076.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3055.06409375,"end":3055.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3076.9678437500006,"end":3081.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3082.82346875,"end":3100.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3098.3484687500004,"end":3098.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3100.8122187500003,"end":3100.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3102.55034375,"end":3102.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3102.5672187500004,"end":3138.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3139.18596875,"end":3149.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3141.10971875,"end":3142.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3144.72096875,"end":3145.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3145.02471875,"end":3146.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3149.90159375,"end":3150.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3150.0703437500006,"end":3153.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3153.52971875,"end":3153.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3154.6940937500003,"end":3155.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3155.92596875,"end":3157.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3157.4278437500006,"end":3158.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3158.8622187500005,"end":3166.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3166.5065937500003,"end":3179.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3180.7490937500006,"end":3180.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3182.4197187500004,"end":3184.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3184.5965937500005,"end":3190.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3191.24534375,"end":3192.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3193.2028437500003,"end":3195.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3193.60784375,"end":3193.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3195.83534375,"end":3203.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3201.13409375,"end":3202.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3203.91846875,"end":3208.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3208.8965937500006,"end":3213.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3213.55409375,"end":3218.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3217.40159375,"end":3220.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3220.0340937500005,"end":3226.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3226.4297187500006,"end":3229.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3229.0115937500004,"end":3229.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3230.2772187500004,"end":3230.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3230.31096875,"end":3232.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3233.61846875,"end":3235.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3235.84596875,"end":3264.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3264.97221875,"end":3275.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3270.01784375,"end":3270.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3273.8484687500004,"end":3289.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3276.1603437500007,"end":3278.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3282.97784375,"end":3283.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3283.0115937500004,"end":3283.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3283.5684687500006,"end":3283.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3284.36159375,"end":3284.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3284.3953437500004,"end":3284.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3289.60971875,"end":3293.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3292.9509687500004,"end":3307.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3308.52659375,"end":3309.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3309.8259687500004,"end":3312.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3313.25159375,"end":3315.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3315.05721875,"end":3315.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3323.30909375,"end":3325.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3334.34534375,"end":3335.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3336.15096875,"end":3337.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3337.3153437500005,"end":3337.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3337.82159375,"end":3338.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3344.33534375,"end":3344.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3344.9765937500006,"end":3346.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3346.63034375,"end":3347.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3348.4190937500007,"end":3349.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3349.22909375,"end":3350.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3351.38909375,"end":3352.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3353.0934687500003,"end":3354.2072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3355.00034375,"end":3356.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3357.5147187500006,"end":3359.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3360.1134687500007,"end":3362.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3362.7459687500004,"end":3364.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3364.6022187500002,"end":3367.7072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3368.8209687500002,"end":3370.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3370.91346875,"end":3372.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3373.0397187500002,"end":3377.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3377.66346875,"end":3384.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3385.9490937500004,"end":3387.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3388.09221875,"end":3388.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3389.5772187500006,"end":3390.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3391.1972187500005,"end":3392.4628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3393.2897187500002,"end":3397.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3397.49159375,"end":3399.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3399.41534375,"end":3400.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3400.69784375,"end":3404.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3404.7647187500006,"end":3406.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3406.82346875,"end":3417.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3418.16346875,"end":3419.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3420.1715937500003,"end":3438.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3438.7509687500005,"end":3440.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3440.8434687500003,"end":3446.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3446.68221875,"end":3454.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3455.2040937500005,"end":3476.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3478.2384687500007,"end":3486.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3487.5703437500006,"end":3489.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3492.41346875,"end":3516.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3517.5740937500004,"end":3561.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3561.8034687500003,"end":3570.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3571.0340937500005,"end":3581.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3582.1715937500003,"end":3597.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3597.83159375,"end":3609.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3609.3740937500006,"end":3641.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3641.82471875,"end":3641.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3642.1622187500006,"end":3643.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3643.74846875,"end":3667.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3665.9728437500007,"end":3668.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3667.79534375,"end":3668.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3668.14971875,"end":3670.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3668.16659375,"end":3668.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3669.43221875,"end":3679.4728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3679.7597187500005,"end":3680.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3680.6034687500005,"end":3728.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3728.79846875,"end":3734.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3734.80596875,"end":3756.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3756.3553437500004,"end":3757.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3758.5828437500004,"end":3762.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3763.13909375,"end":3766.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3767.3915937500005,"end":3813.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3814.18596875,"end":3833.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3833.94659375,"end":3840.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3840.52784375,"end":3843.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3843.64971875,"end":3844.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3844.6453437500004,"end":3845.1515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3846.01221875,"end":3848.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3849.4040937500004,"end":3856.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3857.0653437500005,"end":3860.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3860.82846875,"end":3865.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3865.3678437500002,"end":3910.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3911.09909375,"end":3913.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3914.00159375,"end":3919.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3919.9415937500007,"end":3923.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3923.45159375,"end":3932.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3933.03659375,"end":3937.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3937.37346875,"end":3941.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3942.2165937500004,"end":3942.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3943.22909375,"end":3945.7940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3946.35096875,"end":3946.4015937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3946.6378437500007,"end":3949.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3950.1984687500008,"end":3967.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3960.64409375,"end":3960.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3960.9815937500007,"end":3960.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3967.69784375,"end":3995.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3967.8834687500002,"end":3968.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3996.4022187500004,"end":4012.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4019.6728437500005,"end":4022.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4028.49846875,"end":4033.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4038.7247187500006,"end":4042.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4042.6228437500004,"end":4145.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4146.184718750001,"end":4146.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4147.19721875,"end":4151.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4151.989718750001,"end":4174.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4163.3465937500005,"end":4163.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4174.09596875,"end":4196.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4198.530968749999,"end":4205.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4206.05721875,"end":4224.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4223.2528437500005,"end":4223.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4223.286593750001,"end":4223.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4223.607218749999,"end":4223.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4224.974093750001,"end":4266.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4266.48659375,"end":4289.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4290.61784375,"end":4312.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4312.437218749999,"end":4331.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4331.421593749999,"end":4332.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4332.29909375,"end":4336.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4336.821593750001,"end":4350.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4350.70971875,"end":4351.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4352.21159375,"end":4375.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4376.106593750001,"end":4378.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4378.65471875,"end":4406.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4407.49409375,"end":4424.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4424.2509687500005,"end":4470.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4470.977843750001,"end":4479.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4479.465968750001,"end":4492.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4492.89846875,"end":4513.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4514.565968749999,"end":4519.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4520.235968749999,"end":4520.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4521.14721875,"end":4537.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4537.026593750001,"end":4537.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4537.22909375,"end":4537.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4538.03909375,"end":4538.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4538.055968750001,"end":4542.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4542.42659375,"end":4563.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4562.659718749999,"end":4571.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4571.468468749999,"end":4608.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4608.34034375,"end":4608.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4608.39096875,"end":4608.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4608.407843749999,"end":4608.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4608.9647187499995,"end":4610.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4615.495343750001,"end":4617.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4628.92784375,"end":4630.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4630.919093750001,"end":4634.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4634.54721875,"end":4635.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4640.6728437500005,"end":4642.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4642.61346875,"end":4644.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4645.3134687500005,"end":4655.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4655.809718750001,"end":4657.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4658.03721875,"end":4663.487843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4663.487843749999,"end":4663.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4663.909718749999,"end":4669.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4669.47846875,"end":4670.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4670.25471875,"end":4670.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4670.77784375,"end":4671.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4671.19971875,"end":4671.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4671.77346875,"end":4671.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4671.975968750001,"end":4675.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4675.722218749999,"end":4678.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4678.92846875,"end":4682.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4683.56909375,"end":4699.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4700.140343749999,"end":4707.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4707.514718750001,"end":4717.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4717.8084687499995,"end":4719.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4719.833468750001,"end":4720.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4721.45346875,"end":4723.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4724.35596875,"end":4731.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4731.224093750001,"end":4733.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4733.87346875,"end":4734.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4735.206593750001,"end":4739.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4740.48846875,"end":4740.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4741.09596875,"end":4741.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4742.39534375,"end":4744.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4744.42034375,"end":4750.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4750.866593750001,"end":4751.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4752.2840937500005,"end":4764.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4764.82221875,"end":4765.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4767.67409375,"end":4767.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4768.028468750001,"end":4771.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4771.94346875,"end":4773.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4774.120343750001,"end":4777.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4777.83284375,"end":4783.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4783.5028437500005,"end":4787.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4787.468468749999,"end":4788.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4788.86909375,"end":4789.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4789.780343750001,"end":4791.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4791.366593750001,"end":4792.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4793.07096875,"end":4797.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4797.559718750001,"end":4802.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4803.53346875,"end":4805.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4806.14909375,"end":4808.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4809.0009687500005,"end":4811.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4811.97096875,"end":4812.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4813.540343750001,"end":4816.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4816.66221875,"end":4819.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4820.560343749999,"end":4820.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4821.0497187500005,"end":4824.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4824.644093750001,"end":4827.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4827.934718750001,"end":4829.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4829.26784375,"end":4830.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4831.05659375,"end":4834.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4834.60034375,"end":4839.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4839.47721875,"end":4842.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4843.071593750001,"end":4844.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4844.185343749999,"end":4845.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4845.552218750001,"end":4847.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4847.982218749999,"end":4848.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4849.55159375,"end":4850.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4851.28971875,"end":4853.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4854.42846875,"end":4855.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4856.72346875,"end":4857.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4857.499718749999,"end":4861.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4861.583468750001,"end":4863.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4863.692843750001,"end":4864.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4865.245343750001,"end":4866.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4866.544718749999,"end":4867.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4867.05096875,"end":4867.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4868.53596875,"end":4871.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4871.72534375,"end":4872.079718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4872.19784375,"end":4873.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4874.50971875,"end":4878.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4878.323468750001,"end":4879.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4879.84221875,"end":4880.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4880.97284375,"end":4887.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4888.33034375,"end":4888.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4889.54534375,"end":4895.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4895.55284375,"end":4896.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4897.442843750001,"end":4900.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4900.22721875,"end":4902.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4902.80909375,"end":4906.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4906.57221875,"end":4914.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4915.262843750001,"end":4916.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4918.04721875,"end":4918.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4918.958468750001,"end":4918.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4919.07659375,"end":4935.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4927.17659375,"end":4927.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4937.31846875,"end":4937.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4937.97659375,"end":4938.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4939.495343750001,"end":4939.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4939.51221875,"end":4942.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4943.950343750001,"end":4946.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4946.92034375,"end":4948.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4949.16471875,"end":4950.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4950.919718749999,"end":4953.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4953.43409375,"end":4954.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4955.69534375,"end":4956.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4956.792218750001,"end":4960.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4961.618468750001,"end":4966.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4967.64284375,"end":4970.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4971.085343750001,"end":4971.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4972.452218750001,"end":4974.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4974.94971875,"end":4975.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4976.232218749999,"end":4978.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4979.337218750001,"end":4980.079718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4980.67034375,"end":4983.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4985.142218749999,"end":4985.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4986.222218750001,"end":4987.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4988.483468750001,"end":4989.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4989.782843749999,"end":4990.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4991.436593750001,"end":4992.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4992.685343749999,"end":4993.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4994.22096875,"end":4995.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4996.212218750001,"end":4997.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4997.849093750001,"end":4999.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5000.36346875,"end":5002.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5002.74284375,"end":5003.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5004.075968749999,"end":5008.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5009.374718749999,"end":5011.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5012.44596875,"end":5013.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5014.0322187500005,"end":5015.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5016.20909375,"end":5018.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5019.465968750001,"end":5020.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5021.30534375,"end":5022.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5023.04346875,"end":5024.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5024.41034375,"end":5027.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5027.987843750001,"end":5034.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5036.155343750001,"end":5042.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5043.44534375,"end":5046.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5048.1365937499995,"end":5057.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5057.82284375,"end":5058.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5058.497843749999,"end":5060.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5060.03346875,"end":5061.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5061.80534375,"end":5074.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5074.579718749999,"end":5082.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5082.7303437499995,"end":5084.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5084.147843750001,"end":5093.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5093.091593749999,"end":5096.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5097.647843750001,"end":5099.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5099.6728437500005,"end":5108.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5106.642218749999,"end":5107.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5108.329718749999,"end":5109.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5108.44784375,"end":5108.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5110.202843749999,"end":5110.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5110.253468750001,"end":5110.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5110.32096875,"end":5114.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5114.7928437499995,"end":5116.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5117.560343749999,"end":5118.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5118.032843749999,"end":5128.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5125.626593749999,"end":5126.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5128.74846875,"end":5137.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5137.962218750001,"end":5141.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5147.614718750001,"end":5150.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5161.55346875,"end":5163.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5164.13534375,"end":5164.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5169.7040937500005,"end":5171.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5171.762843750001,"end":5172.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5174.96909375,"end":5181.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5181.82034375,"end":5188.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5188.5028437500005,"end":5189.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5189.73471875,"end":5209.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5209.32659375,"end":5219.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5219.73846875,"end":5220.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5221.66221875,"end":5228.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5228.68221875,"end":5230.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5230.167218750001,"end":5232.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5233.491593750001,"end":5249.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5249.92784375,"end":5250.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5251.210343750001,"end":5255.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5256.137843750001,"end":5261.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5262.280343750001,"end":5271.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5271.47721875,"end":5271.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5271.544718749999,"end":5271.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5271.696593750001,"end":5272.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5273.468468749999,"end":5286.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5286.749093750001,"end":5321.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5321.899718750001,"end":5323.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5323.9247187500005,"end":5324.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5323.97534375,"end":5344.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5345.11971875,"end":5353.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5353.810343749999,"end":5358.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5359.19346875,"end":5366.517218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5366.9559687500005,"end":5383.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5383.89846875,"end":5388.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5388.6572187500005,"end":5389.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5390.1590937500005,"end":5391.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5391.28971875,"end":5392.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5393.1122187500005,"end":5396.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5397.465968750001,"end":5403.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5404.2665937500005,"end":5404.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5405.26221875,"end":5405.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5406.089093750001,"end":5407.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5407.489718750001,"end":5411.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5411.4384687500005,"end":5414.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5414.425343750001,"end":5417.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5418.036593750001,"end":5425.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5425.765343749999,"end":5428.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5428.41471875,"end":5432.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5432.12721875,"end":5440.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5440.024718750001,"end":5441.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5441.93159375,"end":5469.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5469.94409375,"end":5470.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5470.78784375,"end":5483.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5483.292218750001,"end":5489.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5489.36721875,"end":5491.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5491.45971875,"end":5505.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5505.921593749999,"end":5517.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5517.649718750001,"end":5517.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5518.206593750001,"end":5518.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5519.96159375,"end":5520.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5521.00784375,"end":5522.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5522.88096875,"end":5524.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5524.5009687500005,"end":5525.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5525.2772187499995,"end":5525.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5526.1884687500005,"end":5526.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5527.217843750001,"end":5527.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5528.2303437499995,"end":5530.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5530.8290937500005,"end":5532.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5532.53346875,"end":5532.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5533.69784375,"end":5534.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5535.503468750001,"end":5535.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5536.36409375,"end":5536.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5537.46096875,"end":5540.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5541.34221875,"end":5546.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5546.657843749999,"end":5550.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5551.0790937500005,"end":5555.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5555.39909375,"end":5565.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5565.6590937500005,"end":5584.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5584.50846875,"end":5623.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5624.16471875,"end":5625.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5625.61596875,"end":5625.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5626.392218749999,"end":5626.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5626.965968750001,"end":5636.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5637.20909375,"end":5642.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5643.216593749999,"end":5645.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5646.28784375,"end":5647.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5647.587218750001,"end":5654.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5654.708468750001,"end":5673.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5673.70971875,"end":5678.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5678.704718749999,"end":5681.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5681.387843750001,"end":5690.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5691.44534375,"end":5711.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5711.49284375,"end":5713.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5714.02409375,"end":5714.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5715.745343750001,"end":5718.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5718.732218749999,"end":5719.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5720.6053437499995,"end":5721.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5722.00596875,"end":5744.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5744.83784375,"end":5745.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5746.87971875,"end":5747.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5747.655968749999,"end":5757.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5758.118468750001,"end":5760.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5760.784718750001,"end":5764.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5764.80096875,"end":5765.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5765.59409375,"end":5767.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5768.192843750001,"end":5783.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5783.44784375,"end":5805.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5805.33471875,"end":5806.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5806.684718750001,"end":5814.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5814.497843749999,"end":5825.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5826.00659375,"end":5831.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5833.43159375,"end":5839.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5839.725968750001,"end":5844.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5845.19346875,"end":5854.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5854.66034375,"end":5864.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5864.63346875,"end":5868.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5868.90284375,"end":5871.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5871.29909375,"end":5881.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5881.592843750001,"end":5887.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5887.347218750001,"end":5895.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5895.90284375,"end":5896.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5896.915343750001,"end":5899.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5899.19346875,"end":5899.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5909.13284375,"end":5911.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5924.40471875,"end":5926.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5926.767218750001,"end":5927.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5933.26409375,"end":5933.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5934.15846875,"end":5935.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5935.6434687500005,"end":5941.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5942.005343750001,"end":5952.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5952.872843749999,"end":5956.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5956.298468750001,"end":5958.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5959.217843750001,"end":5962.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5962.356593750001,"end":5964.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5965.073468750001,"end":5966.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5967.25034375,"end":5989.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5989.204718750001,"end":5996.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5996.69721875,"end":5999.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5999.430968750001,"end":6011.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6011.81721875,"end":6016.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6016.356593750001,"end":6018.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6018.66846875,"end":6024.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6024.49034375,"end":6026.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6027.1903437500005,"end":6030.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6030.34596875,"end":6034.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6034.868468750001,"end":6047.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6047.524718750001,"end":6052.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6056.569718750001,"end":6059.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6059.21909375,"end":6071.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6070.727843750001,"end":6092.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6071.97659375,"end":6072.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6090.35346875,"end":6090.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6093.20534375,"end":6093.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6094.13346875,"end":6104.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6097.03596875,"end":6097.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6104.950343750001,"end":6107.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6106.89096875,"end":6107.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6107.16096875,"end":6113.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6113.64096875,"end":6114.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6113.91096875,"end":6130.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6131.59596875,"end":6161.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6161.26221875,"end":6165.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6164.16471875,"end":6167.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6167.97846875,"end":6171.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6170.45909375,"end":6171.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6171.28596875,"end":6172.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6172.12971875,"end":6179.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6179.55471875,"end":6194.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6194.387843750001,"end":6197.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6198.1678437499995,"end":6198.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6199.19721875,"end":6201.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6201.67784375,"end":6204.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6203.34846875,"end":6203.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6203.36534375,"end":6203.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6203.7197187500005,"end":6203.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6204.76596875,"end":6207.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6207.39846875,"end":6212.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6212.86596875,"end":6222.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6213.169718749999,"end":6215.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6216.10596875,"end":6216.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6220.74659375,"end":6227.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6227.665343750001,"end":6242.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6240.743468750001,"end":6244.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6243.882218750001,"end":6244.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6244.118468750001,"end":6251.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6246.00846875,"end":6246.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6252.52221875,"end":6253.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6254.243468750001,"end":6256.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6256.4540937500005,"end":6263.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6263.87909375,"end":6269.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6270.173468750001,"end":6282.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6283.116593750001,"end":6283.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6284.17971875,"end":6286.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6287.622218750001,"end":6305.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6306.0497187500005,"end":6316.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6318.132218750001,"end":6318.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6319.347218750001,"end":6362.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6327.413468750001,"end":6327.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6362.985968750001,"end":6365.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6365.68596875,"end":6410.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6366.647843750001,"end":6367.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6369.651593750001,"end":6370.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6370.05659375,"end":6370.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6410.421593749999,"end":6411.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6412.497218750001,"end":6418.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6419.196593750001,"end":6424.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6424.79909375,"end":6425.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6425.87909375,"end":6426.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6426.01409375,"end":6440.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6426.030968749999,"end":6426.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6427.61721875,"end":6428.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6440.27346875,"end":6445.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6444.795968750001,"end":6457.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6457.671593749999,"end":6463.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6463.74659375,"end":6465.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6466.210343750001,"end":6473.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6473.466593749999,"end":6475.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6475.2215937500005,"end":6476.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6475.27221875,"end":6491.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6481.14471875,"end":6481.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6481.51596875,"end":6481.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6486.10596875,"end":6486.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6491.8603437500005,"end":6495.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6495.30284375,"end":6495.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6495.319718750001,"end":6505.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6496.3153437500005,"end":6497.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6505.731593750001,"end":6509.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6509.376593750001,"end":6512.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6513.62909375,"end":6514.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6514.860968750001,"end":6527.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6515.4178437499995,"end":6517.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6519.2822187500005,"end":6519.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6537.52409375,"end":6540.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6541.5740937499995,"end":6542.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6551.44596875,"end":6553.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6553.724093750001,"end":6554.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6560.237843750001,"end":6579.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6579.81284375,"end":6581.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6582.124718749999,"end":6582.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6583.27221875,"end":6584.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6583.862843750001,"end":6586.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6585.3309687500005,"end":6585.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6585.85409375,"end":6587.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6587.69346875,"end":6609.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6622.32096875,"end":6624.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6625.679093750001,"end":6627.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6631.214093750001,"end":6642.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6635.16284375,"end":6635.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6642.655343750001,"end":6642.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6642.790343750001,"end":6642.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6642.874718749999,"end":6642.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6642.8915937500005,"end":6642.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6642.925343750001,"end":6642.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6642.99284375,"end":6695.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6695.760968750001,"end":6710.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6711.15096875,"end":6719.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6719.622218750001,"end":6721.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6721.7147187499995,"end":6724.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6725.20784375,"end":6728.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6726.94596875,"end":6728.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6728.68409375,"end":6735.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6729.544718749999,"end":6730.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6732.00846875,"end":6732.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6735.19784375,"end":6740.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6741.087218750001,"end":6741.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6741.458468750001,"end":6750.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6750.38534375,"end":6752.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6753.15284375,"end":6770.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6772.10346875,"end":6773.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6773.03159375,"end":6774.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6774.735968750001,"end":6774.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6775.51221875,"end":6782.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6778.93784375,"end":6781.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6782.802218750001,"end":6785.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6786.02534375,"end":6786.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6787.74659375,"end":6791.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6791.577218750001,"end":6802.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6799.154093749999,"end":6799.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6799.3397187499995,"end":6799.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6802.7147187499995,"end":6809.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6807.7772187499995,"end":6808.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6808.637843750001,"end":6813.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6811.1522187499995,"end":6814.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6815.708468750001,"end":6818.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6819.99471875,"end":6844.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6846.30284375,"end":6847.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6849.6103437500005,"end":6852.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6851.60159375,"end":6853.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6853.47471875,"end":6857.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6857.153468750001,"end":6866.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6866.55284375,"end":6868.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6869.48909375,"end":6873.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6874.93971875,"end":6881.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6881.014718750001,"end":6881.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6882.364718750001,"end":6924.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6924.56909375,"end":6928.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6929.04096875,"end":6931.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6932.44971875,"end":6937.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6938.237843750001,"end":6941.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6941.528468750001,"end":6942.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6942.20346875,"end":6948.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6949.13909375,"end":6952.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6953.3915937500005,"end":6955.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6955.97346875,"end":6963.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6963.972218750001,"end":6969.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6969.4228437500005,"end":6973.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6973.827218750001,"end":6980.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6980.796593750001,"end":6989.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6990.43221875,"end":7001.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7001.670968750001,"end":7002.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7003.071593750001,"end":7004.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7004.91096875,"end":7006.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7006.345343750001,"end":7041.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7041.175343750001,"end":7048.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7048.98846875,"end":7055.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7055.333468750001,"end":7078.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7085.69159375,"end":7088.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7088.72909375,"end":7095.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7104.3553437499995,"end":7107.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7108.118468750001,"end":7108.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7114.952843750001,"end":7115.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7115.7459687499995,"end":7116.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7116.5897187499995,"end":7118.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7119.57659375,"end":7122.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7123.542218750001,"end":7128.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7128.419093750001,"end":7130.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7130.88284375,"end":7137.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7138.1053437499995,"end":7141.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7141.817843750001,"end":7146.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7147.538468750001,"end":7149.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7150.18784375,"end":7150.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7151.335343750001,"end":7152.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7153.022843750001,"end":7156.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7156.718468750001,"end":7157.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7158.321593750001,"end":7161.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7162.05096875,"end":7163.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7163.991593750001,"end":7165.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7165.763468749999,"end":7166.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7168.024718750001,"end":7168.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7169.03721875,"end":7174.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7174.673468750001,"end":7175.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7180.3603437500005,"end":7181.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7181.001593750001,"end":7185.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7181.0184687500005,"end":7185.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7185.692843750001,"end":7185.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7185.70971875,"end":7185.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7187.22846875,"end":7194.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7194.75471875,"end":7196.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7197.52221875,"end":7204.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7204.89659375,"end":7205.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7205.92596875,"end":7210.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7210.870343750001,"end":7215.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7215.71346875,"end":7219.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7220.69159375,"end":7222.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7223.25659375,"end":7224.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7225.062218750001,"end":7228.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7228.89284375,"end":7235.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7235.845343750001,"end":7236.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7237.482218749999,"end":7240.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7240.73909375,"end":7241.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7242.038468750001,"end":7247.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7245.970343750001,"end":7250.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7251.15096875,"end":7255.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7255.825343750001,"end":7265.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7266.01784375,"end":7269.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7269.966593749999,"end":7275.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7276.14284375,"end":7285.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7280.192843750001,"end":7280.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7281.76221875,"end":7282.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7282.538468750001,"end":7282.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7283.804093750001,"end":7283.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7283.83784375,"end":7284.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7285.10346875,"end":7285.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7285.575968749999,"end":7285.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7286.11596875,"end":7288.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7288.61346875,"end":7298.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7298.55284375,"end":7306.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7306.97346875,"end":7311.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7311.90096875,"end":7313.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7314.364718750001,"end":7315.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7315.444718750001,"end":7326.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7326.700343750001,"end":7334.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7334.952218750001,"end":7338.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7338.68159375,"end":7340.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7340.97659375,"end":7344.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7344.8915937500005,"end":7352.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7353.3290937500005,"end":7363.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7364.247218750001,"end":7368.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7369.09034375,"end":7370.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7370.760968750001,"end":7372.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7373.190968750001,"end":7374.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7375.452218750001,"end":7382.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7383.079718750001,"end":7391.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7392.66471875,"end":7398.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7397.524718750001,"end":7397.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7397.6259687500005,"end":7397.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7398.14909375,"end":7400.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7400.62971875,"end":7402.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7402.350968750001,"end":7421.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7422.01034375,"end":7424.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7425.030968750001,"end":7427.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7427.69721875,"end":7431.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7432.202843750001,"end":7436.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7436.72534375,"end":7439.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7439.69534375,"end":7442.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7443.39096875,"end":7451.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7451.67659375,"end":7452.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7452.48659375,"end":7456.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7457.07659375,"end":7457.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7458.57846875,"end":7461.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7462.341593749999,"end":7466.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7466.88096875,"end":7468.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7468.5009687500005,"end":7469.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7469.91846875,"end":7477.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7477.680968750001,"end":7480.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7481.376593750001,"end":7483.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7483.350968750001,"end":7485.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7485.595343750001,"end":7488.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7489.155968750001,"end":7490.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7490.87721875,"end":7496.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7497.087218750001,"end":7504.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7505.17034375,"end":7506.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7507.14471875,"end":7515.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7516.257218750001,"end":7518.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7519.27784375,"end":7530.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7530.66846875,"end":7541.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7542.02534375,"end":7547.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7547.610968750001,"end":7547.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7547.712218750001,"end":7547.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7547.762843750001,"end":7549.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7550.26034375,"end":7550.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7551.30659375,"end":7555.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7555.491593750001,"end":7572.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7572.80534375,"end":7574.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7574.8134687500005,"end":7579.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7579.15034375,"end":7581.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7581.782843750001,"end":7582.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7583.335343750001,"end":7583.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7584.280343750001,"end":7607.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7608.175343750001,"end":7608.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7608.934718750001,"end":7609.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7609.87971875,"end":7614.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7614.53721875,"end":7621.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7622.198468750001,"end":7632.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7633.09971875,"end":7638.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7638.685343749999,"end":7641.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7640.895968750001,"end":7643.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7643.849093750001,"end":7644.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7651.98284375,"end":7652.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7653.0965937500005,"end":7655.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7673.0428437499995,"end":7676.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7676.8397187499995,"end":7677.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7683.6572187500005,"end":7683.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7683.67409375,"end":7684.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7684.60221875,"end":7745.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7746.280343750001,"end":7749.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7749.452843750001,"end":7777.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7778.46096875,"end":7784.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7784.95784375,"end":7786.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7785.7509687500005,"end":7788.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7788.029093749999,"end":7800.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7794.23909375,"end":7796.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7796.21346875,"end":7796.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7800.4490937499995,"end":7822.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7823.382218750001,"end":7824.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7824.05721875,"end":7825.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7825.08659375,"end":7825.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7825.8290937500005,"end":7825.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7826.6053437499995,"end":7827.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7827.550343750001,"end":7827.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7827.837218750001,"end":7827.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7828.394093750001,"end":7838.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7832.5115937499995,"end":7832.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7832.54534375,"end":7832.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7832.88284375,"end":7832.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7832.9334687499995,"end":7832.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7834.80659375,"end":7834.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7834.874093750001,"end":7835.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7838.82284375,"end":7841.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7841.151593750001,"end":7848.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7848.89721875,"end":7857.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7857.8915937500005,"end":7866.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7866.919718749999,"end":7875.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7875.745343750001,"end":7885.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7885.78596875,"end":7888.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7890.02159375,"end":7898.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7898.40846875,"end":7906.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7906.60971875,"end":7907.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7907.63909375,"end":7916.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7918.0340937500005,"end":7920.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7922.0165937500005,"end":7927.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7925.59409375,"end":7927.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7927.5009687500005,"end":7955.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7955.952218750001,"end":7965.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7966.70159375,"end":7975.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7975.814093750001,"end":7983.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7984.167218750001,"end":7997.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7999.067843750001,"end":8006.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8007.269093750001,"end":8007.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8008.264718750001,"end":8009.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8010.66096875,"end":8011.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8011.724093750001,"end":8012.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8013.00659375,"end":8017.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8017.7822187500005,"end":8024.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8022.169718750001,"end":8025.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8025.561593750001,"end":8041.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8041.862843750001,"end":8048.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8049.70971875,"end":8074.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8075.106593750001,"end":8076.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8076.81096875,"end":8083.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8084.995343750001,"end":8086.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8087.17221875,"end":8087.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8088.20159375,"end":8090.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8090.3447187500005,"end":8094.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8095.00221875,"end":8102.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8101.7353437500005,"end":8103.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8103.3553437499995,"end":8104.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8103.86159375,"end":8119.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8119.79159375,"end":8121.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8121.71534375,"end":8129.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8129.612843750001,"end":8129.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8129.9334687499995,"end":8131.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8130.4228437500005,"end":8153.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8153.575343750001,"end":8153.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8154.132218750001,"end":8181.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8182.98846875,"end":8190.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8192.590343750002,"end":8193.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8194.429718750001,"end":8196.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8196.92721875,"end":8198.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8199.45846875,"end":8210.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8211.355343750001,"end":8220.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8221.159718750001,"end":8221.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8222.50971875,"end":8227.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8228.06159375,"end":8229.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8229.968468750001,"end":8235.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8235.68909375,"end":8238.743468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8238.827843750001,"end":8239.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8239.85721875,"end":8247.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8247.77159375,"end":8259.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8260.47846875,"end":8261.946593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8262.63846875,"end":8269.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8269.91159375,"end":8272.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8273.337218749999,"end":8280.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8279.88471875,"end":8306.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8307.188468750002,"end":8324.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8324.56971875,"end":8344.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8335.352843750003,"end":8335.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8335.36971875,"end":8335.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8335.57221875,"end":8336.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8344.53284375,"end":8346.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8346.70971875,"end":8349.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8347.739093750002,"end":8355.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8355.46784375,"end":8360.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8360.378468750001,"end":8363.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8361.914093750001,"end":8390.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8391.20909375,"end":8414.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8415.610343750002,"end":8432.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8433.480968750002,"end":8434.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8435.640968750002,"end":8437.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8438.020343750002,"end":8443.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8444.36534375,"end":8445.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8445.597218750001,"end":8447.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8449.27596875,"end":8450.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8450.74409375,"end":8451.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8452.245968750001,"end":8455.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8456.02596875,"end":8460.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8461.08846875,"end":8462.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8464.379093750002,"end":8472.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8473.91346875,"end":8480.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8480.96721875,"end":8495.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8496.10409375,"end":8507.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8508.49034375,"end":8508.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8509.418468750002,"end":8512.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8512.87784375,"end":8524.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8525.297843750002,"end":8542.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8542.628468750001,"end":8544.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8544.231593750003,"end":8544.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8545.547843750002,"end":8546.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8547.589718750001,"end":8548.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8548.399718750003,"end":8553.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8554.17096875,"end":8556.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8557.10721875,"end":8563.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8564.65034375,"end":8564.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8564.70096875,"end":8564.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8564.92034375,"end":8567.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8568.19409375,"end":8568.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8569.105343750001,"end":8573.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8573.99909375,"end":8574.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8574.57284375,"end":8576.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8575.112843750001,"end":8581.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8581.187843750002,"end":8581.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8581.339718750001,"end":8584.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8584.96784375,"end":8590.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8588.832218750002,"end":8591.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8590.722218750001,"end":8591.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8592.257843750001,"end":8597.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8597.894093750001,"end":8598.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8598.180968750003,"end":8602.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8603.648468750001,"end":8607.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8606.78721875,"end":8612.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8613.469718750002,"end":8614.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8615.17409375,"end":8624.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8624.55659375,"end":8645.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8645.565968750001,"end":8670.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8669.309093750002,"end":8690.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8674.23659375,"end":8674.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8684.344718750002,"end":8685.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8691.246593750002,"end":8708.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8701.60784375,"end":8701.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8704.88159375,"end":8705.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8706.45096875,"end":8709.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8723.84909375,"end":8726.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8732.40471875,"end":8733.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8734.058468750001,"end":8735.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8736.47159375,"end":8737.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8741.93909375,"end":8742.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8745.128468750001,"end":8756.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8757.19409375,"end":8763.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8763.539093750001,"end":8763.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8764.63596875,"end":8765.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8765.969093750002,"end":8770.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8771.082218750002,"end":8771.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8771.655968750001,"end":8774.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8774.879093750002,"end":8777.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8778.304718750001,"end":8779.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8779.300343750001,"end":8780.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8781.61221875,"end":8784.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8785.206593750001,"end":8785.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8785.86471875,"end":8787.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8787.906593750002,"end":8794.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8795.16284375,"end":8797.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8797.96409375,"end":8798.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8799.36471875,"end":8799.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8801.035343750002,"end":8807.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8808.44346875,"end":8812.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8813.050343750001,"end":8813.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8814.164093750001,"end":8815.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8816.50971875,"end":8816.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8817.184718750003,"end":8818.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8819.243468750003,"end":8823.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8823.968468750001,"end":8825.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8826.617843750002,"end":8827.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8828.59221875,"end":8831.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8832.33846875,"end":8835.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8836.50659375,"end":8839.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8839.40909375,"end":8839.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8839.67909375,"end":8841.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8841.737843750001,"end":8844.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8844.35346875,"end":8846.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8845.51784375,"end":8846.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8847.019718750002,"end":8853.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8854.02284375,"end":8860.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8859.574718750002,"end":8862.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8862.59534375,"end":8885.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8863.995968750001,"end":8864.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8865.227843750003,"end":8866.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8870.45909375,"end":8870.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8885.562218750001,"end":8888.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8886.76034375,"end":8887.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8888.19471875,"end":8888.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8888.38034375,"end":8895.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8890.641593750002,"end":8891.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8893.35846875,"end":8893.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8893.375343750002,"end":8893.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8893.78034375,"end":8893.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8893.797218750002,"end":8893.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8896.24409375,"end":8897.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8897.47596875,"end":8897.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8897.56034375,"end":8897.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8898.79221875,"end":8903.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8903.14596875,"end":8904.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8903.702843750001,"end":8904.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8904.63096875,"end":8905.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8904.64784375,"end":8904.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8906.234093750001,"end":8914.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8909.89596875,"end":8910.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8910.43596875,"end":8910.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8911.313468750002,"end":8914.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8915.582843750002,"end":8924.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8922.602843750003,"end":8923.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8924.594093750002,"end":8925.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8926.04534375,"end":8929.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8929.656593750002,"end":8936.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8936.44034375,"end":8942.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8942.66721875,"end":8943.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8942.86971875,"end":8949.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8950.09221875,"end":8958.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8959.035968750002,"end":8960.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8960.63909375,"end":8965.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8965.566593750002,"end":8971.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8972.29971875,"end":8979.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8979.57284375,"end":8982.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8982.40784375,"end":9017.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9017.929718750001,"end":9017.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9017.96346875,"end":9025.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9025.70909375,"end":9035.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9035.73284375,"end":9045.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9046.44846875,"end":9048.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9049.50284375,"end":9049.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9050.312843750002,"end":9051.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9052.03409375,"end":9053.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9054.852218750002,"end":9057.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9058.19346875,"end":9060.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9060.52221875,"end":9070.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9070.140968750002,"end":9090.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9091.352843750003,"end":9103.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9104.093468750001,"end":9105.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9106.152218750001,"end":9109.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9109.45971875,"end":9112.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9111.97409375,"end":9116.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9117.25596875,"end":9117.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9118.63971875,"end":9121.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9122.53784375,"end":9124.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9125.237843750001,"end":9127.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9127.49909375,"end":9128.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9129.49034375,"end":9132.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9132.81471875,"end":9137.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9138.61971875,"end":9140.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9141.218468750001,"end":9141.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9141.707843750002,"end":9143.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9144.441593750002,"end":9152.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9153.503468750001,"end":9158.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9159.24096875,"end":9161.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9161.50221875,"end":9164.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9165.77159375,"end":9167.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9168.269093750001,"end":9170.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9171.35721875,"end":9182.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9174.58034375,"end":9175.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9177.094718750002,"end":9177.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9179.102843750003,"end":9179.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9179.136593750001,"end":9179.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9182.680343750002,"end":9189.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9189.12659375,"end":9189.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9189.14346875,"end":9189.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9190.03784375,"end":9202.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9201.445343750001,"end":9207.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9207.53721875,"end":9212.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9211.70534375,"end":9213.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9213.004718750002,"end":9217.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9214.35471875,"end":9214.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9217.98284375,"end":9218.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9218.691593750002,"end":9220.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9218.72534375,"end":9218.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9222.42096875,"end":9242.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9227.449718750002,"end":9227.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9227.820968750002,"end":9227.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9227.85471875,"end":9227.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9240.93284375,"end":9241.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9242.164718750002,"end":9250.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9250.332218750002,"end":9252.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9252.77909375,"end":9254.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9254.399093750002,"end":9256.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9257.41971875,"end":9259.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9260.254718750002,"end":9262.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9262.735343750002,"end":9263.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9264.01784375,"end":9265.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9265.55346875,"end":9266.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9267.96659375,"end":9273.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9274.61534375,"end":9276.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9276.707843750002,"end":9289.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9290.02221875,"end":9294.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9295.050968750002,"end":9299.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9301.446593750003,"end":9305.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9305.699093750001,"end":9315.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9314.49096875,"end":9316.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9316.296593750001,"end":9320.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9318.64221875,"end":9318.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9320.852843750003,"end":9345.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9325.98284375,"end":9328.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9328.480343750001,"end":9328.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9329.003468750001,"end":9329.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9329.020343750002,"end":9331.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9331.73721875,"end":9331.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9335.179718750001,"end":9335.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9335.58471875,"end":9335.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9335.618468750003,"end":9335.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9336.512843750003,"end":9336.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9336.968468750001,"end":9336.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9342.18284375,"end":9342.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9345.844718750002,"end":9353.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9354.265343750001,"end":9357.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9358.062218750001,"end":9360.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9360.964718750001,"end":9366.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9366.499718750001,"end":9367.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9367.84971875,"end":9377.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9378.04221875,"end":9383.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9390.124718750001,"end":9391.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9390.95159375,"end":9393.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9391.812218750001,"end":9392.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10018.684718750003,"end":10021.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10029.315968750001,"end":10032.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10033.14659375,"end":10033.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10039.47471875,"end":10039.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10039.67721875,"end":10040.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10040.04846875,"end":10072.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10072.836593750002,"end":10081.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10081.577843750001,"end":10087.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10087.821593750003,"end":10092.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10092.664718750002,"end":10094.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10095.398468750001,"end":10096.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10098.18284375,"end":10098.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10098.90846875,"end":10099.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10099.75221875,"end":10104.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10100.680343750002,"end":10100.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10100.69721875,"end":10100.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10103.61659375,"end":10103.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10106.417843750001,"end":10154.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10114.88909375,"end":10114.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10115.024093750002,"end":10115.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10115.09159375,"end":10115.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10154.477843750003,"end":10188.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10160.18159375,"end":10161.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10188.93659375,"end":10189.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10189.274093750002,"end":10189.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10189.965968750003,"end":10205.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10205.507843750001,"end":10208.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10208.528468750003,"end":10212.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10208.629718750002,"end":10208.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10212.76409375,"end":10228.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10228.74471875,"end":10229.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10229.11596875,"end":10232.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10232.69346875,"end":10232.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10232.79471875,"end":10232.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10232.96346875,"end":10233.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10233.520343750002,"end":10233.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10233.63846875,"end":10233.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10233.672218750002,"end":10233.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10233.68909375,"end":10235.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10236.321593750003,"end":10257.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10258.12409375,"end":10260.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10260.368468750003,"end":10277.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10278.89721875,"end":10279.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10284.499718750001,"end":10329.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10285.613468750002,"end":10285.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10329.977843750003,"end":10335.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10336.54221875,"end":10341.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10342.144718750002,"end":10344.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10345.739093750002,"end":10365.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10366.54596875,"end":10382.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10367.42346875,"end":10367.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10382.94846875,"end":10383.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10383.488468750002,"end":10383.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10383.52221875,"end":10392.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10392.297218750002,"end":10397.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10398.33846875,"end":10398.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10399.01346875,"end":10406.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10406.860343750002,"end":10421.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10421.676593750002,"end":10425.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10426.33409375,"end":10427.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10428.004718750002,"end":10429.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10431.008468750002,"end":10439.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10439.665343750003,"end":10443.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10444.22159375,"end":10450.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10451.562218750001,"end":10453.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10453.33409375,"end":10453.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10453.890968750002,"end":10460.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10460.894093750001,"end":10463.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10464.20159375,"end":10467.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10467.812843750002,"end":10469.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10469.31471875,"end":10482.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10475.91284375,"end":10476.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10483.050968750002,"end":10483.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10484.08034375,"end":10486.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10486.35846875,"end":10488.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10486.44284375,"end":10486.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10488.214718750001,"end":10492.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10493.00721875,"end":10500.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10500.837218750003,"end":10523.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10523.669093750003,"end":10527.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10527.516593750002,"end":10547.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10549.74096875,"end":10559.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10559.32596875,"end":10563.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10563.156593750002,"end":10572.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10573.19721875,"end":10584.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10578.31034375,"end":10578.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10581.617843750002,"end":10582.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10584.55409375,"end":10624.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10591.641593750002,"end":10591.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10624.969718750002,"end":10634.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10634.41971875,"end":10635.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10635.820343750001,"end":10644.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10644.88221875,"end":10648.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10648.29096875,"end":10649.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10656.84659375,"end":10663.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10671.02159375,"end":10674.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10675.13909375,"end":10675.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10682.15909375,"end":10682.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10682.175968750002,"end":10682.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10682.88471875,"end":10707.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10707.539093750001,"end":10709.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10710.10409375,"end":10712.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10715.706593750001,"end":10725.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10722.16971875,"end":10722.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10722.625343750002,"end":10722.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10726.08471875,"end":10729.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10729.577843750001,"end":10730.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10730.168468750002,"end":10732.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10732.98659375,"end":10738.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10738.79159375,"end":10747.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10748.32596875,"end":10753.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10754.45159375,"end":10759.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10757.860343750002,"end":10759.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10759.058468750001,"end":10759.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10759.98659375,"end":10760.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10761.35346875,"end":10763.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10763.90159375,"end":10766.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10766.753468750001,"end":10773.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10774.313468750002,"end":10779.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10782.329093750002,"end":10785.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10786.649093750002,"end":10786.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10788.31971875,"end":10789.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10795.137218750002,"end":10803.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10803.945968750002,"end":10808.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10816.534718750001,"end":10819.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10817.51346875,"end":10831.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10831.97534375,"end":10849.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10851.38159375,"end":10854.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10854.16596875,"end":10854.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10854.48659375,"end":10854.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10855.583468750003,"end":10866.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10864.324718750002,"end":10864.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10866.636593750001,"end":10869.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10869.15096875,"end":10871.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10870.14659375,"end":10870.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10872.239093750002,"end":10878.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10877.925968750002,"end":10884.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10885.317218750002,"end":10891.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10891.442843750003,"end":10892.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10894.699718750002,"end":10906.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10907.22096875,"end":10913.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10913.835968750001,"end":10961.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10962.28409375,"end":10964.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10965.034718750001,"end":10966.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10967.414093750001,"end":10978.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10972.493468750003,"end":10974.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10979.05784375,"end":10979.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10979.98596875,"end":10985.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10986.73596875,"end":10994.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10994.785343750002,"end":10994.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10995.274718750003,"end":10995.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10995.308468750001,"end":11006.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11007.711593750002,"end":11010.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11011.64346875,"end":11014.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11014.64721875,"end":11016.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11017.00971875,"end":11021.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11022.51096875,"end":11022.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11022.96659375,"end":11028.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11029.04159375,"end":11032.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11029.058468750001,"end":11029.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11032.78784375,"end":11035.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11035.977218750002,"end":11040.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11041.15784375,"end":11048.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11049.12284375,"end":11055.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11055.14721875,"end":11055.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11055.24846875,"end":11061.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11062.58909375,"end":11070.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11070.722843750002,"end":11083.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11083.21034375,"end":11093.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11093.11596875,"end":11095.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11102.937218750001,"end":11105.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11107.628468750001,"end":11107.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11121.516593750002,"end":11126.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11126.81534375,"end":11128.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11128.890968750002,"end":11129.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11130.56159375,"end":11134.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11136.754718750002,"end":11139.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11140.433468750001,"end":11153.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11154.60846875,"end":11159.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11160.71721875,"end":11164.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11165.15534375,"end":11165.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11166.30284375,"end":11172.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11172.546593750001,"end":11174.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11175.246593750002,"end":11177.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11178.047843750002,"end":11179.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11179.87034375,"end":11192.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11193.690968750001,"end":11195.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11196.019718750002,"end":11198.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11200.94721875,"end":11202.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11202.75284375,"end":11211.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11211.696593750003,"end":11220.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11221.04534375,"end":11230.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11230.79909375,"end":11234.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11238.308468750001,"end":11241.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11238.71346875,"end":11239.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11239.38846875,"end":11240.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11241.02534375,"end":11241.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11241.76784375,"end":11241.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11241.83534375,"end":11241.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11241.86909375,"end":11242.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11241.97034375,"end":11277.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11243.50596875,"end":11243.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11248.78784375,"end":11249.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11254.238468750002,"end":11254.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11260.27971875,"end":11260.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11276.42909375,"end":11283.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11278.487843750001,"end":11279.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11279.01096875,"end":11279.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11279.68596875,"end":11281.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11283.550343750001,"end":11283.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11283.887843750003,"end":11283.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11283.95534375,"end":11286.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11286.874718750001,"end":11292.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11292.359093750001,"end":11293.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11294.35034375,"end":11298.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11298.737843750001,"end":11300.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11300.83034375,"end":11304.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11304.52596875,"end":11305.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11306.078468750002,"end":11307.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11308.37346875,"end":11311.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11311.410968750002,"end":11312.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11313.63846875,"end":11315.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11315.54534375,"end":11319.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11316.625343750002,"end":11317.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11319.03846875,"end":11320.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11319.76409375,"end":11321.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11322.07596875,"end":11327.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11327.847218750001,"end":11328.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11329.19721875,"end":11329.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11331.610343750002,"end":11334.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11334.90096875,"end":11337.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11338.410968750002,"end":11338.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11339.237843750001,"end":11341.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11341.364093750002,"end":11342.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11343.28784375,"end":11345.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11349.81846875,"end":11351.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11351.860343750002,"end":11356.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11358.89721875,"end":11362.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11363.655968750001,"end":11364.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11364.31409375,"end":11370.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11370.422843750002,"end":11371.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11371.92471875,"end":11373.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11373.325343750003,"end":11375.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11379.012218750002,"end":11379.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11380.176593750002,"end":11388.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11388.394718750002,"end":11395.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11396.140343750001,"end":11396.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11397.051593750002,"end":11397.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11398.114718750003,"end":11410.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11410.29846875,"end":11412.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11412.52596875,"end":11413.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11413.724093750003,"end":11415.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11416.390343750001,"end":11417.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11417.63909375,"end":11419.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11425.418468750002,"end":11426.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11426.92034375,"end":11433.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11433.653468750003,"end":11435.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11435.745968750001,"end":11442.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11440.082843750002,"end":11440.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11442.124718750001,"end":11443.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11444.31846875,"end":11449.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11449.97159375,"end":11453.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11454.207218750002,"end":11459.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11459.40471875,"end":11463.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11464.028468750003,"end":11477.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11477.984093750001,"end":11480.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11481.03846875,"end":11482.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11483.14784375,"end":11485.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11485.66221875,"end":11487.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11487.552218750003,"end":11489.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11489.94846875,"end":11491.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11492.04096875,"end":11493.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11493.30659375,"end":11496.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11497.238468750002,"end":11497.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11498.520968750003,"end":11500.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11501.237843750001,"end":11503.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11503.49909375,"end":11504.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11505.08534375,"end":11511.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11512.03784375,"end":11516.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11517.167843750001,"end":11523.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11523.90096875,"end":11528.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11529.098468750002,"end":11532.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11532.321593750003,"end":11533.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11534.734718750002,"end":11536.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11537.164718750002,"end":11537.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11538.160343750002,"end":11541.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11541.46784375,"end":11546.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11546.83409375,"end":11549.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11549.36534375,"end":11551.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11551.660343750002,"end":11553.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11553.68534375,"end":11555.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11555.71034375,"end":11569.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11569.395968750003,"end":11569.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11571.31971875,"end":11578.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11578.84596875,"end":11615.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11615.532218750002,"end":11619.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11619.599093750003,"end":11626.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11626.88909375,"end":11630.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11630.922218750002,"end":11684.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11684.770343750002,"end":11689.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11689.343468750001,"end":11695.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11696.414093750001,"end":11697.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11697.56159375,"end":11698.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11704.159718750001,"end":11706.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11714.520968750003,"end":11718.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11715.60096875,"end":11715.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11725.60784375,"end":11829.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11763.610343750002,"end":11764.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11794.660343750002,"end":11794.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11795.082218750002,"end":11795.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11830.75596875,"end":11832.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11832.629093750002,"end":11832.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11832.645968750003,"end":11893.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11896.551593750002,"end":11901.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11901.917843750001,"end":11902.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11903.21721875,"end":11905.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11905.984718750002,"end":11906.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11906.32221875,"end":11907.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11907.773468750001,"end":11914.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11914.270343750002,"end":11932.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11916.953468750002,"end":11917.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11932.02284375,"end":11932.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11933.102843750003,"end":11942.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11941.13534375,"end":11942.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11942.789093750001,"end":11989.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11965.215968750003,"end":11965.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11965.43534375,"end":11965.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11990.96721875,"end":12014.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12015.26721875,"end":12045.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12046.55346875,"end":12048.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12048.29159375,"end":12048.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12048.359093750001,"end":12048.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12048.46034375,"end":12048.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12048.96659375,"end":12051.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12050.92409375,"end":12052.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12052.645343750002,"end":12062.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12059.125343750002,"end":12060.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12060.880343750003,"end":12065.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12064.15409375,"end":12065.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12065.672843750002,"end":12065.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12065.68971875,"end":12077.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12076.70909375,"end":12108.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12110.847218750001,"end":12120.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12120.65159375,"end":12157.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12157.18596875,"end":12159.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12160.915343750003,"end":12161.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12171.05721875,"end":12176.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12177.722843750002,"end":12194.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12196.96034375,"end":12204.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12206.37659375,"end":12207.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12208.77284375,"end":12209.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12219.387218750002,"end":12221.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12223.437218750001,"end":12227.74034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1943.98,"end":1949.504,"text":"現在出席委員已達法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1953.359,"end":1978.614,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期交通委員會第十三次全體委員會議事錄時間一百一四年五月二十八日星期三上午九十至中午十二時十八分五月二十九日星期四上午九十至十一時二十八分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員林國成等十五人列席委員黃婕等十九人列席官員五月二十八日國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳重樹等"},{"start":1979.094,"end":2001.737,"text":"5月29日國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德等主席林召集委員國程5月28日報告四項一宣布上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二處理113年度附屬單位預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算凍結案計15案決定個案順便報告以送達均與以備查提報院會"},{"start":2002.878,"end":2011.403,"text":"討論四項一審查一百一四年度國家通訊川普委員會預算凍結案及二案二繼續審查電信管理法修正草案"},{"start":2013.854,"end":2037.172,"text":"本日會議由國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹報告後紀委員洪孟凱等15人提出質詢均經代理主任委員陳崇樹及相關人員分別予以答覆決議一報告及詢答完畢二委員游浩等二人所提書面質詢均列入記錄並刊登公報三委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請國家通訊傳播委員會盡數以書面答覆"},{"start":2038.473,"end":2046.301,"text":"4 審查結果以114年度國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結案及二案以政務人員待遇預算凍結七分之四案"},{"start":2046.772,"end":2075.368,"text":"一通過提案一項二本案提報院會是國家通訊傳播委員會人事同意案送達立法院並經立法院院會完成審查程序後及同意動資二業務費預算凍結10%案本案同意動資提報院會二電信管理法修認草案等五案一第五條趙委員黃建豪等五人及委員許智傑等三人所提修認動議通過二第八條第九條第四十條及第七十五條均"},{"start":2076.388,"end":2097.243,"text":"不予修正 維持現行條文三 徵定第八條之一 不予徵定四 第七十九條 趙委員 黃建豪等五人及委員徐志傑等三人所提修運動議通過五 通過附帶決議以下六 病案審查完略 拟據審查報告提報院會討論 院會討論前不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由林召集委員國層補充說明"},{"start":2098.864,"end":2122.181,"text":"5月29日報告四項處理一百一四年度國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計五案決定個案書面報告已送達均已被查提報院會討論四項處理國家運輸安全調查委員會涵為一百一四年度中央政府總預算決議預算凍結案本人會議由國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德報告後經由委員洪孟凱等13人提出質詢"},{"start":2123.381,"end":2144.14,"text":"軍監主任委員連憲德及相關人員分別予以答覆決議一報告及詢談完畢二委員廖新祥等上任所提書面質詢均列入記錄並刊登公報三委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或會及答覆部分請國家運輸安全調查委員會盡數以書面答覆四本案同意通知提報院會散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2149.727,"end":2176.153,"text":"先介紹在場委員我們林國成 趙偉介紹列席官員我們行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委陳偉祥副主委李怡德副主委羅天健主秘"},{"start":2178.757,"end":2189.725,"text":"技術處曾鈞敏處長工程管理處陳春錦處長採購申訴審議委員會張明珠執行秘書中央採購集合小組蔡承平記政法官會陳韻時執密資訊推動小組沈恒光執密"},{"start":2211.366,"end":2225.331,"text":"衛福部心理健康師李秉璋基站護理及健康照護師蔡明翰科長曾淑芬專門委員社會家庭署劉芝琳視察"},{"start":2236.977,"end":2264.166,"text":"內政部國土署建築管理組盧昭宏兼任政工程師本日會議審查計時法修正草案公三案僅進行宣達程序請委員說明提案要旨沒有委員在這邊好"},{"start":2267.456,"end":2270.986,"text":"請機關代表報告請工程會曾經的主委報告"},{"start":2281.247,"end":2304.1,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生有關委員徐欣寧等18人 委員陳俊尼等20人分別凝聚祭司法第11條條文修正草案委員武立法等19人凝聚祭司法第11條及第42條條文修正草案 計3案提出本會延期意見如下 敬請指教"},{"start":2305.779,"end":2325.201,"text":"一 委員徐信霖等18人 委員陳俊霖等20人 委員吳立華等19人 凝聚祭司法第11條修正草案部分修正重點為依第11條第一項第4款 建立違反身心障礙者權利公約刪除罹患精神疾病或身心狀況為常用語"},{"start":2326.943,"end":2348.665,"text":"但依客觀事實認定技師不能執行業務情形 仍有限制其職業資格之必要研究認定方式 民電有狀況主管機關邀請相關專科醫師 技師公會代表及學者專家組成小組認定以兼顧公共安全 公共利益及技師權利二"},{"start":2349.286,"end":2363.76,"text":"委員習信義等18人另增訂第11條第三項明定不能執行業務之認定小組組織與運作辦法授權中央主管機關訂定以符授權明確化原則"},{"start":2364.963,"end":2391.46,"text":"第二工程會延續意見有關各委員提案版本以本會114年5月20日函報行政院祭司法第11條修正草案內容相近包括本次委員提案刪除罹患精神疾病或身心狀況違常之歧視性文字另訂明有客觀事實認定祭司不能執行業務限制祭司"},{"start":2393.142,"end":2419.979,"text":"職業職格之認定方式並授權訂定認定機制外此外報行政院版考量依消費者債務清理條例所定程序清理債務者於回復其債信及財產行為能力前類似受破產宣告確定尚未付權者有債信不良及財產行為能力受限制之情形於第十一條第一項第三款"},{"start":2423.322,"end":2442.395,"text":"執照之要件原建議支持本會修正內容第二委員武力法等19人凝聚祭司法第42條條文修正草案部分修正重點為就利害關係人報請祭司懲戒涉及祭司辦理鑑定事務時建立出篩機制"},{"start":2443.716,"end":2463.06,"text":"與第12條徵定第二項及第三項利害關係人報請處理之情勢及涉及技師辦理鑑定事務者應先經目的事業主管機關直轄市縣市主管機關或技師工會審核後轉送技師懲戒委員會處理並與專要主管機關訂定審核轉送原則等之規則"},{"start":2467.301,"end":2481.417,"text":"工程會延續意見有關委員提案修正方向本會認同為經考量現行利害關係人得直接報請懲戒機制不限於技師辦理鑑定事務有被利用"},{"start":2482.418,"end":2499.769,"text":"成為解決失權爭執手段之可能或作為影響調解或訴訟程序之手段並參考會計司法第六三條建築司法第五十條等規定與第四十二條刪除利害關係人得直接交付懲戒之規定"},{"start":2500.669,"end":2520.774,"text":"增訂第二項 利害關係員發現技師有為師情事時的類舉事實並提出證據報請目的事業主管機關、直轄市縣市主管機關或技師所屬技師工會審核後轉送技師懲戒委員會處理是規定已為作妥"},{"start":2521.474,"end":2549.433,"text":"那中整本市各委員所提及本會建立之計施法第11條及第42條修正條文如附件以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教 謝謝好 謝謝其餘機關書面包括列入記錄並刊登公報那現在再議決議事錄 現在請問各位委員對議事錄有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 那我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2552.52,"end":2579.239,"text":"好 現在進行詢問 先宣告以下事項詢問時間 出席委員6加1分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘委員登記發言於10點半截止各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出 以便疑似人員會診暫定10點半休息10分鐘 中午休息時間再另行宣布現在請登記第一位 洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":2588.362,"end":2615.697,"text":"主席謝謝 請陳主委請主委委員長主委好 本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是"},{"start":2616.874,"end":2632.562,"text":"因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就"},{"start":2633.422,"end":2655.575,"text":"先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通道安匯報每個月開一次好 主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績"},{"start":2656.576,"end":2680.827,"text":"跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊"},{"start":2683.328,"end":2712.584,"text":"是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有致愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這些管理那現在一年多了公司化"},{"start":2713.905,"end":2714.876,"text":"主委 您自己感覺"},{"start":2717.352,"end":2743.534,"text":"公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以它進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北已經一年多了耶因為它這個不是一個新公司耶機關已經很久很久了主委"},{"start":2745.077,"end":2767.492,"text":"我們這樣子請教我比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本的要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":2768.956,"end":2796.958,"text":"今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以它本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎"},{"start":2799.363,"end":2825.702,"text":"已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故"},{"start":2827.183,"end":2844.034,"text":"的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要徵處還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在治理組織來講這很重要"},{"start":2847.436,"end":2865.527,"text":"杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸得緊啊"},{"start":2866.548,"end":2893.653,"text":"那螺絲栓緊 最直接的即便你是工程會主委 即便你是政務委員 官大 學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話 怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會 可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊"},{"start":2894.414,"end":2918.106,"text":"那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重"},{"start":2920.657,"end":2928.995,"text":"他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話 那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦不是嗎"},{"start":2930.181,"end":2959.276,"text":"這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧我想這個部長會會綜合各種情況來 主委那我另外請教喔"},{"start":2960.543,"end":2981.342,"text":"我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標"},{"start":2982.776,"end":3007.372,"text":"那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄"},{"start":3009.032,"end":3037.424,"text":"來包委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那有關要還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管"},{"start":3038.611,"end":3055.65,"text":"現在確實是有各種意見我們會往 剛剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個也納進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變"},{"start":3057.612,"end":3081.332,"text":"那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力的認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依 不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些"},{"start":3083.524,"end":3100.09,"text":"狀況來去做調整嗎實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件"},{"start":3103.188,"end":3126.723,"text":"泰伍克豪事件這樣的一個狀況 跟我們報告就是說環境配件這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台"},{"start":3127.563,"end":3156.402,"text":"就是說這一些有採購防彈變心的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來 主委我再簡單確認兩個不婚啦主委我第一話說如果連"},{"start":3157.526,"end":3179.576,"text":"負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣"},{"start":3182.489,"end":3192.217,"text":"劣跡斑斑的負責人 劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想"},{"start":3193.28,"end":3212.803,"text":"工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎"},{"start":3213.924,"end":3220.092,"text":"原則上可以 下個會期可以 這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期雖然現在延長到7月31嘛 但也有可能比較難好 我們就遵照委員的意見 下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊 你們會有加嚴"},{"start":3234.889,"end":3254.816,"text":"會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審"},{"start":3256.877,"end":3275.126,"text":"的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點"},{"start":3278.428,"end":3307.404,"text":"都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一謝謝主委 謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來不要讓國人認為是說什麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標"},{"start":3308.778,"end":3315.545,"text":"這是任何機關 不管立法部門 行政部門 都不應該被看到的事情好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝我們請林國成召來"},{"start":3334.583,"end":3358.594,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我要請陳金德主委請主委委員早好 主委早我想當然啦 還沒有執行以前啦我特別提一個良心話啦我今天看到報紙也就是宜蘭險情"},{"start":3360.188,"end":3384.754,"text":"在我的看法因為我把你當成除了是一個監督單位主管之外我是把你當成好朋友所以我是覺得這樣報紙看完以後一喜則一憂一喜就是我們敬重的陳主委在整個宜蘭險情方面少一個勁敵那一憂就覺得"},{"start":3389.707,"end":3390.358,"text":"奇怪了"},{"start":3391.923,"end":3418.368,"text":"民進黨的過去的官員都是這樣這個就是意義有的但是我還是要勉勵陳主委從你在工程會跟過去的表現我對你是有信心啦那所以雖然這跟今天主題無關但是多少是跟感情有關所以我還要祈勉你再接再厲但是千萬千萬"},{"start":3420.648,"end":3445.941,"text":"當一天和尚敲一天鐘我也相信你兩位副主委是很強但是不要忘了你現在就是政務委員你現在就是工程會的主任委員因為一向我對工程會期待很高的我對工程會的寄望我是希望的我到處從當立委以後我都替你們叫屈"},{"start":3446.801,"end":3463.728,"text":"也就是在你們組織法過程當中我都替你們伸冤為什麼因為公共工程太多了陳天德跟工程會不能缺少的所以基本上我是蠻支持工程會的所以但是我還要祈勉陳主委"},{"start":3466.289,"end":3476.615,"text":"雖然機會真大但是不要忘了當一天和尚敲一天鐘工程會的事該做的一定要做我想主委你同意我這種說法吧謝謝委員的勉勵不過就我個人的生涯規劃我是"},{"start":3487.639,"end":3515.862,"text":"準備在工程會做滿四年好啦好啦這個反正光化跟真心話這個我會不會去計較啦但是我還是要其免當然因為我對你的行事風格跟做事情的這些貫徹我還是蠻期待的主委所以工程會該做的還是要做好那我現在還是回歸主題啦也就是碳排這個問題"},{"start":3517.623,"end":3541.572,"text":"看牌這個問題當然啦主管機關是環境部但是我們是工程單位的一個制定合約一個機關可是現在民主社會合約是非常重要所以我為什麼一開始非常支持你們單位就是這樣有統一的規劃合約總比"},{"start":3544.713,"end":3559.937,"text":"沒有好啦好 沒有好你知道為什麼過去公共工程在整個合約部分會有一點雜亂可是經過你們啊把它統合以外現在已經把雜亂縮短到"},{"start":3562.423,"end":3581.248,"text":"極端的少了所以我還是期待啦就是碳排這個問題我們要位以籌謀可是現在啊這個網路雖有啊但是內容空洞就會變成了文池館的意味所以主委"},{"start":3582.228,"end":3596.913,"text":"我是要拜託你碳排未來是一個歧視所以在整個網路的這些你要開始未以籌謀先有一個規劃那我相信在整個廠商"},{"start":3597.933,"end":3624.675,"text":"未來他在整個登錄方面他會有習慣性所以我建議現在應該要有假設性的這些操作不要說白在那裡不要說未來事情發生的你才來做這個事所以我還是期許工程會是主管整個合約裡面的主要的規範單位所以我還是希望針對這個"},{"start":3626.556,"end":3641.662,"text":"碳排的問題要稍微磨練那個演練一下以後大家會駕輕就熟所以主委你針對本席對於這些的建言你的看法是如何"},{"start":3642.242,"end":3663.749,"text":"建議委員這個意見非常好那我們陸續在建制的相關的包括碳排氣數的建立或者是範本等等我們會要求我們處裡面來根據委員的建立來試操作就一段時間試著操作才能夠發現哪些操作是"},{"start":3665.069,"end":3675.697,"text":"比較順的有些操作是不可行的所以我們就用模擬的方式去做這種操作那未來廠商你們規劃出來一我們單位會鎖洗二"},{"start":3680.86,"end":3700.129,"text":"這些廠商會更熟悉如果是做到這樣就不會以現在情況我們只有設有這些網路設有這些機制但是你現在沒有啊所以它無法無法去做到盡善盡美這個部分"},{"start":3700.609,"end":3726.739,"text":"所以雖然啊因為你們已經有做這些網路已經在準備運作但是我認為啊效果是不髒的因為沒有演練就不會有熟悉所以我也希望啊這個理副主委應該要因為主委會比較忙這個你要去專責啊去做這些演練你看一回聲二回首你之後擺在那邊等到事情發生了以後再來做我認為這個"},{"start":3729.58,"end":3757.412,"text":"嚴目求疑所以這些東西啊就會變成你們不熟悉然後廠商也不熟悉所以這個部分我是蠻建議主委督促之下副主委要去把它執行好那另外一個就是這些資訊公開真的要很重要啦好不好所以主委這是我我還蠻期待的好那接下來我還是特別啊要跟主委"},{"start":3758.93,"end":3762.178,"text":"談一些我非常重視的這些勞務的這些採購的規範"},{"start":3767.438,"end":3790.597,"text":"我非常重視不管是公安也好不管是勞工他的權利也好甚至於說我一直每一次執行我都擔心你在這裡忘記所以我不斷的提醒也就是勞工薪資的部分不能沒有勞工的權益也不能剝奪這是我希望你們在整個"},{"start":3792.599,"end":3813.157,"text":"規範裡面要把它寫得清清楚楚也就是不以違反勞工有關權利跟薪資基金的問題如果是這樣你們要用最嚴厲的方式不管是這些計分啊或者不准投標啊這等等東西廠商沒有什麼"},{"start":3814.298,"end":3832.518,"text":"不怕花錢但是怕的就是他不能去招標所以這點你要抓住廠商的弱點所以你要招標我也不要刻意去找你麻煩但是最起碼的話你一定廠商最怕的就是喪失招標資格"},{"start":3834.059,"end":3842.83,"text":"上司燒他這個 所以這點我要建議主委就像現在 今天這個北捷欸 人家在抗議欸 來 下張圖片你看 對不對他們為什麼這樣 因為他的權力剝奪啦"},{"start":3849.588,"end":3877.548,"text":"但是我們只有去歸換一部分但是他的權益我們沒有放下去所以主委因為我每一次你可以去發現我對你的建言就是勞工的部分公安的部分權力的部分薪資的部分我非常重視所以像北捷這個問題我不曉得主委你看過以後你有因為我要強調就是說"},{"start":3879.349,"end":3898.869,"text":"他們特休只要做他們的工程不能特休這個就剝奪他的權利啊所以主委你看完這些他們的抗議你有什麼感想那想在工程會在這裡同不同意把這些也列入進去我也知道陳副主委跟你都有氣"},{"start":3899.89,"end":3910.133,"text":"委員建議的各項你們在六月份以前都會提到行政院去那我也希望這個部分也把它納進去所以主委你有什麼看法"},{"start":3911.481,"end":3932.386,"text":"這個是採購單位並沒有依照工程會2019年修正的勞務採購企業範本的規定來納入我們目前修正了政務採購法會將類似的企業範本修正成剛性的企業範本"},{"start":3933.166,"end":3949.344,"text":"那剛性的企業換本之後各採購機關他就必須遵行工程會的企業換本我們會在企業換本裡面要求各比方說這個相關的勞務在勞務採購裡面的所有人他必須心思要"},{"start":3951.046,"end":3967.182,"text":"最低薪的1.1倍以上甚至更高的時候我們有利於他將來在進行其他標範採購的時候會有加分的機制這個也是一種社會企業責任有鼓勵有懲罰那我們會修正成剛性的企業範圍"},{"start":3968.843,"end":3995.554,"text":"這樣的話對勞工才會有所幫助啦就像他現在其他他薪水他都有公安他都有重視但是勞工的權利他就負累啦因為我們沒有寫清楚所以要拜託城府主委在這個部分因為你們都寫法律的你們都比我們還懂但是我們發現問題提供給你我相信你們也會把他納進去這樣的話也就是統一換本他就"},{"start":3996.494,"end":4011.938,"text":"無法去逃避啦所以這樣的話我認為對於整個勞工對於合約的完整性會更圓滿更完整這樣好不好好所以拜託陳主委拜託陳副主委一下好不好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請李坤澤委員"},{"start":4029.048,"end":4033.212,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑召委請一下陳主委請主委"},{"start":4039.015,"end":4067.236,"text":"主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題"},{"start":4068.317,"end":4083.584,"text":"那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2"},{"start":4085.606,"end":4100.104,"text":"資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上"},{"start":4102.307,"end":4124.115,"text":"那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等"},{"start":4125.575,"end":4144.588,"text":"那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我一直認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":4146.209,"end":4173.884,"text":"包委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞"},{"start":4174.805,"end":4191.62,"text":"這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":4198.681,"end":4227.541,"text":"剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止資安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議"},{"start":4228.041,"end":4254.368,"text":"第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員"},{"start":4256.348,"end":4282.456,"text":"他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了"},{"start":4283.476,"end":4311.511,"text":"那另外的部分我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業勞動環境保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中"},{"start":4312.732,"end":4319.439,"text":"製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年"},{"start":4331.471,"end":4348.956,"text":"台灣是將近七成 67.3 韓國53英國45 日本41 新加坡28那其實在2018年的時候 新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範 現在已經下降到28.6那"},{"start":4352.25,"end":4377.751,"text":"我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60% 70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高 對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下"},{"start":4378.732,"end":4405.881,"text":"委員如果是職業安全的部分那目的社會主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作為環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個"},{"start":4407.543,"end":4431.879,"text":"部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以以此來督導這公共工程這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職災因為是公共工程這部分"},{"start":4432.679,"end":4449.086,"text":"有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件"},{"start":4451.872,"end":4478.721,"text":"那到2024年 植栽的件數也沒有減少 也是32件死亡32人 受傷2人 沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失 遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善 主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型"},{"start":4479.554,"end":4491.844,"text":"就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊"},{"start":4492.97,"end":4519.158,"text":"最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善"},{"start":4520.287,"end":4535.762,"text":"能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下"},{"start":4537.964,"end":4539.285,"text":"所以我們都非常明確啦 主委"},{"start":4565.023,"end":4590.382,"text":"我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山"},{"start":4591.543,"end":4609.409,"text":"這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善謝謝我們現在請林俊憲委員"},{"start":4628.979,"end":4635.584,"text":"好 感謝主席本席邀請我們工程會陳金德陳主委請主委委員長主委好主委你剛有提到啊就是因為北捷這個特修小偷的事件啊你剛有說到那工程會要對於所頒布的採購契約範本啊"},{"start":4655.851,"end":4682.389,"text":"要把它調為剛性讓採購機關執行的採購機關能夠遵循是不是應該這樣子這要修正政府採購法明定這個契約範本是機關必須遵循第一個 其實由這個個案但實際上它是普遍存在這種狀況就我們工程會頒布的採購契約範本那實際上執行採購的單位很多都沒有依照這個來"},{"start":4683.79,"end":4699.201,"text":"甚至有很多是違反了這種採購報告就影響到勞權影響到勞工的權益這案件非常多其實北捷的案件2018年早在2018年監察院就提出了調查報告"},{"start":4700.422,"end":4711.412,"text":"說北捷啊他利用他集團下面的公司輪流承攬這種清潔的標案但是勞工如果留任那他的年資兩年一標換個公司換個老闆年資歸零這種狀況2018年"},{"start":4717.887,"end":4730.306,"text":"監察院就提出報告然後呢我們再來看看一直拖拖拖拖到最近啊爆發出來了那北捷才承認然後他要回歸到我們政府所頒布的勞動這種契約的一個範本"},{"start":4733.916,"end":4748.888,"text":"那過去啦就是說你北捷沒有依照工程會所訂的勞務採購契約範本啦那這個狀況其實所在都有啦那通常都是由各採購單位他自己有一個所謂的採購機油小組"},{"start":4750.936,"end":4765.778,"text":"在集合他的各項採購有沒有合法啦有沒有違反人權啊違反勞權等等那實際上因為這種集合小組都是機關就採購單位自己組的啦球員兼裁判啦"},{"start":4768.157,"end":4791.907,"text":"你工程會是有你工程會的 但是他本身也有一個集合小組嘛他不可能去抓自己的啦 我覺得那個都虛設的啦你同意自己的集合小組很少會抓到自己的一個狀況啦否則你看北捷這個2018年存在到現在 抓不出來所以我們政府呢"},{"start":4793.417,"end":4819.531,"text":"你剛提到要把它轉為剛性啦應該是按照採購法第63條啦各類的採購契約應該以採用主管機關訂定的範本為原則對 你訂的是原則嘛所以它很多它就不遵守啊所以基本上它並沒有一個強制力啦那實際上啦這一點啦 你轉為剛性啦主委你是有道理的啦因為我們採用一個法院判決的範本"},{"start":4821.175,"end":4848.676,"text":"法院的一個民事裁決範本它就明定啦機關你要有正當的合理性還有一個理由以及必要性你才可以例外的不採用契約範本實際上法院已經做出有利於你工程會就像主委你剛講的你要轉回剛性的過去就有這樣的一個判例了換言之也有說啦你一國機關喔你若沒有提出正當的理由跟必要性"},{"start":4849.608,"end":4867.223,"text":"李毅平要按照主管機關 就是我們工程會頒布的契約範本所以你說要把它調整 現在也來得及啦我認為這種狀況 不會只有北捷一個個案應該是存在很多有這種狀況的 主委您的看法"},{"start":4868.864,"end":4886.769,"text":"因為不只是這個案例其他相關的這個採購跟採購對象之間是否有公平或要求這個得票廠商多做其他事情的要求等等存在很多很多個這個"},{"start":4889.597,"end":4915.676,"text":"不適合這個採購的這些樣態都會透過我們將來修訂這種採購的這個企業換本改為剛性之後呢那希望所有機關就遵循工程會頒布的企業換本來做這個採購的行為就是除非你有事先提出特別的理由以及必要性是有以外 否則就應該要按照我們的企業換本是不是這個意思嗎"},{"start":4920.087,"end":4942.654,"text":"我們目前修正的方向就如委員剛剛的指示但是我們當然會例外因為有些特殊的採購確實嘛所以原則上我們要求他要報到上級機關來核准他才能例外不採用好 謝謝主委另外我們最近在討論那個祭司法的修正草案"},{"start":4944.542,"end":4971.352,"text":"為什麼要提祭司法修正草案呢我們來看一下 最近幾年各類的祭司被移送懲戒的人數統計大概有50件後來有做出懲戒處分的大概有30個人受懲戒處分的比例是60%左右實際上大概移送案件有4成都是"},{"start":4972.503,"end":4998.921,"text":"等於說都沒有達成懲戒的必要那為什麼會有那麼多的懲戒案件呢我認為我們祭司法有一個必須要修正的地方就是現在是由利害關係人他可以引用法條尤其是第19條他只要有那些行為他就可以直接把祭司給移送了"},{"start":5000.407,"end":5020.285,"text":"那其中啊 我看案件最多的都是鑑定的技術版鑑定喔 這可能是有時候一般普遍的業務啦那你辦鑑定一定會有一個 兩個對照嘛或者是說 我業壓關係量 我覺得你的鑑定對我不利他如果不滿"},{"start":5021.345,"end":5046.813,"text":"他如果就可以引用這個計時法裡面的條文就把你給移送懲戒所以造成你看最後符合懲戒的比例其實六成其實很低啦表示有四成案件是根本不需要的那我們現在應該要在移送懲戒就關係人就是說你即使在被移送懲戒之前應該要有一個初步篩檢的一個機制啦"},{"start":5048.713,"end":5056.834,"text":"所謂的出塞的機制那到底這個祭司有沒有違反相關法律規定才必要達到移送懲戒"},{"start":5058.602,"end":5081.661,"text":"那這個修法方向主委你要幹嘛因為非常正確那我們目前修法方向是說希望透過主管機關縣市或這個直轄市主管機關或者是他那個工會工會如果來審核之後由工會來移送那這樣會篩掉很多是利害關係人之間的"},{"start":5083.623,"end":5096.891,"text":"糾紛然後利用這個提起懲戒來做這個必要的要求所以我們目前會這個祭司法是朝這個方向來修正那如果主委認同的話那為什麼我們工程會沒有自己的版本"},{"start":5097.737,"end":5116.783,"text":"行政沒有院本送出來因為是5月24號才送到行政院那這個版本大概大概是兩年前就有提到上一屆就有提到那因為屆期不連續所以現在這個我們這一屆的立法院現在也有很多立委在關心這個事情"},{"start":5117.951,"end":5141.338,"text":"那我覺得應該要有願本我們5月20日送到行政會竣訴不過我們相對跟委員提案的條文內容大同小異所以我們今天有提出工程會的主張那稍微有修正部分委員的提案那方向都是一致的好那我們應該就往這個方向來努力好不好好 謝謝主委好 謝謝主席"},{"start":5147.677,"end":5172.606,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請魯明哲委員謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委請主委陳主委早好首先請教一下"},{"start":5175.174,"end":5202.112,"text":"這其實三令五申啦尤其在你採購法裡面就規定我們這個不管是公家的一個採購尤其這樣的機敏的一些產品根本不能用中國大陸的一些相關的一些產品但是事實上三不五時就聽到而且有時候弄很久才搞清楚那我覺得這算最嚴重的所以我舉這個例子就是說同樣的一個監視系統放在比如說你這放在家裡面"},{"start":5203.633,"end":5231.823,"text":"監管幼稚園看孩童的安全你也可以講在風景區看看我們人流的進出我覺得那個都不是最嚴重你就直接裝到軍方下面聯合報這邊寫在軍方954部這個也是前一陣子的才出來的一個新聞那我也說真的有些東西不知道裝到營區裝到一些機敏的一些單位不知道已經好一陣子了可是我在想這到底出了什麼樣一些問題"},{"start":5233.567,"end":5260.73,"text":"然後再來譬如說像降德的一個企業未來在採購法裡面會怎麼處理你先講第二個好不好那這個事情已經發生了那我們也看到了這家公司呢從109年總共標公共工程64個標案這是我們在工程會的一個網站查到的公共工程我不知道你們查的如何啦那我覺得在軍方這種最嚴重的一個樣態"},{"start":5262.355,"end":5286.195,"text":"罪重的樣態發生了現在還未來現在還在還是繼續可以招標嗎是什麼情況說明一下跟委員說明委員好我們統計的是還包括他的子公司所以我們這邊統計出來的這10年大概總共有71件那韓國的這個"},{"start":5291.639,"end":5313.284,"text":"這個採購的機關大概有30幾個機關那目前我們是請通行請所有的機關全面去徹查那這個因為他這個要不要停權要不要沒收押標金要不要這個取消他的得標資格這都必須有廠商有機關他來決定那我們會給他一些指導的原則"},{"start":5314.204,"end":5319.863,"text":"那因為它有一些是屬於比較是隱匿性的那我們也會請他可能必要的時候要拆開來檢驗"},{"start":5322.229,"end":5344.545,"text":"因為我現在看到很多的案子因為我今天沒有提包括中科院 因為它行政法人不見得跟你採購法有最直接的相關可是更機敏的採購法管不到所以現在很多奇奇怪怪的事情持續的發生而且同樣的人或同樣的一個集團同樣的模式不斷在做"},{"start":5345.265,"end":5365.854,"text":"所以這個部分對於我們公務工程明文規定後面又發現我們原本規定不行的樣態持續的不斷的發生啦是大剌剌的等於無所謂的這種大量的在那邊弄那我就覺得這個的部分如果你沒有立竿見影啊他可能在這一兩年沒事嘛繼續招標"},{"start":5367.054,"end":5395.662,"text":"所以這個部分我是希望能夠要快好不好 由於軍方這件事應該相關的證據力夠那如果這樣子說真的就是都沒有什麼事會有一個學習效應學習效應沒問題啊 怕什麼先弄進來再說我覺得這個你們去思考那我必須要提醒現在看到很多一些問題我是覺得驗收者的能力在目前這些電子產品 高科技產品"},{"start":5397.509,"end":5416.999,"text":"出現了很大的弱勢就是說我們是工人員考上工人員我有這樣的執照我有這種身分所以我也通過採購法所以我就會看得懂這些電子產品嘛完全不相關所以我們在招標的時候有很多專家協助介入幫我們希望來評選這些廠商的一個能力"},{"start":5418.209,"end":5440.551,"text":"但是我們在驗收的時候經常就是承辦業管單位那些人在獨立面對我覺得這個部分是給你們做一個思考像這樣的一個產品如果不斷的去做的話那這些針對的問題的可以去處理的這些專家業者怎麼樣去來協助這個政府的一個機構你們有沒有想法"},{"start":5443.877,"end":5468.843,"text":"這個當然機關它本身的判別能力要有嘛那我們會希望說機關這做採購評審的時候那就針對工程會本身已有的專家學者部分來做挑選不過既然是軍方的這些機敏的設備一而再再而三的採購大陸的相關的產品我想這個機關本身要檢討是否有涉及國安的問題"},{"start":5470.904,"end":5486.947,"text":"或別是他不見得是不清楚有的是清楚的採購那這部分這個相關機關除了採購法之外有沒有涉及其他國安問題我想可以請機關一併調查好主委啊因為你也是政委啦我覺得可以去協調一些事情啦"},{"start":5487.347,"end":5511.083,"text":"我覺得很多事情採購法現在的規定反正也已經在市場上實驗這麼久了我覺得該管的尤其有些機敏的機構機敏的功能那就當然要最嚴啦但我覺得你分類分級是一定要的因為你會另外一方面會管到那很無聊的我跟你講那個上次大概幾個月前我看待在某某處的火災救災救災的一個情況那是消防員那個志工旁邊那個很生氣的在那邊留言"},{"start":5518.568,"end":5544.586,"text":"採購吧消防隊大飛機無人機不敢飛下雨不能飛狀況不行不能飛很貴幾十萬因為我們只能買這個大家組一組就弄怕飛上去淋到雨會壞那後面怎麼弄結果這些不要講誰啦後面他沒辦法要飛進去那個大工廠他就弄了一台你們禁止的DJI小型的為什麼燒掉兩萬塊"},{"start":5547.102,"end":5563.883,"text":"燒掉大概兩三萬他就飛進去拍好了消防隊就用得很好所以他很深情在那邊所以我在想這些救災的像有一些山區救難有些這個部分你政府機構在做的但你這次規定讓他覺得弄得非常辛苦他花了30萬 50萬"},{"start":5565.805,"end":5583.861,"text":"他買的飛機 下一天要救災不能用我覺得這個的部分我們希望你能夠找真的去把它能不能分級分類沒有機敏的這個的部分我覺得應該要適度救災救難民生的這個部分你要適度的考量 可以嗎"},{"start":5584.982,"end":5610.557,"text":"對於所有的無人載具那政府部門採購的無人機無人艇之類的我們現在已經請行政院的財政部跟主計總處修改相關的財產規定這個不能視為是財產而是一種消耗品所以各機關有了這些無人機之後他才能夠放心的去使用否則會不小心摔掉或者是說在那個財產"},{"start":5611.838,"end":5625.357,"text":"期限內損耗的話那當事人也擔心是不是要負相關的責任所以目前我們是請主總跟財政部再修改相關的財產管理的規定好 這個主委"},{"start":5626.774,"end":5641.838,"text":"這個我是覺得因為我們有時候你們也是呕心瀝血了在想辦法去防範但你要知道我們現在看到了很多的這個少數少數的一些業者他也是呕心瀝血在繞道規避"},{"start":5646.351,"end":5660.73,"text":"在隱藏那怎麼樣用這樣剛剛講很多的方式去做處理那我再講一個就是營造業缺供的問題我是覺得這次從108年開始 事實上在疫情之前就已經有"},{"start":5661.591,"end":5683.426,"text":"這整體營造業這是從國土署的資料所以包括了公家的工程私人工程都有但整體營造業缺工的一個情況疫情這邊是爆量爆量那到112年統計了適當到比108年就恢復到還是缺工的一個情況依舊那我們特別看一下我這邊這個來做結論在112年當這個缺工情況總共營造業缺工了52000多人"},{"start":5691.511,"end":5719.794,"text":"那其中承攬政府工程的承攬政府工程的國土組織的資料大概佔百分之一半百分之五十兩萬六千多人是做政府工程的那你再看下面的表格呢那這些承攬政府工程兩萬六千人的缺工呢缺工那先看普通工我們只看合計就好了普通工四千多人技術性的勞工就要技術性的大概佔百分之六十"},{"start":5722.21,"end":5744.142,"text":"60.8%大概一萬將近一萬六千人其他工地主任稍微管理階級的話大概五千八百人所以我希望你們不管是在國內補足這些勞工的能力人力或者從國外移工因為已經談了好久了不知道最具體的落實的策略是什麼但是我是覺得有個很重要的不是來這裡"},{"start":5746.929,"end":5763.986,"text":"然後都在補普通工啊就我要抱歉我都不太會我要焊接我要把我都不太會所以這技術性的一個勞工是一個最大的基層的一個缺口未來不管是在討論外國的移工要來支援那在外國如何去培訓"},{"start":5765.668,"end":5782.503,"text":"或者還要在國內怎麼樣去培訓那這要到納入思考那國內的很多的培訓的一個機制這些培訓出來的人到底有沒有到這些的位置上針對去工作我倒是覺得給你一個政策上面的思考好不好那你做個結論你來說明一下"},{"start":5783.964,"end":5806.035,"text":"的確是公共工程缺工嚴重那如果是針對公共工程如果說特定的需求那工程會會專案那麼來協調勞動部准許他引進移工我們現在有的引進的移工在國內還會受訓在台灣甚至電焊已經交到可以考取檢定的執照"},{"start":5806.815,"end":5830.967,"text":"那這部分很多企業事實上有在進行不過移工有時候他移動性快就是說他學會執照之後也許會跳或者是被這個聘走了所以目前是有這樣的機制針對公共工程的專案引進那我也知道有些業者他直接就訓練開班訓練訓練甚至指導他去考取檢定考試"},{"start":5833.459,"end":5854.04,"text":"好 我這樣講的是因為缺工的一個議題壓力對產業界是非常非常大的其實這是公共工程私人的部分也是非常非常大所以其實真的有時候是蠻慘的我們也聽說了很多具有規模品牌的公司很多也被逼著你知道嗎"},{"start":5854.821,"end":5879.967,"text":"大家想要申請合法的移工嘛或者引進國內這個優先嘛可是就是真的沒有辦法所以呢想要這個合法的移工跟合法的一個國內的專業勞工是求之不到啊沒辦法求到所以現在很多工地啊就是都在工地一進去都是那種違法的一個陰影在那邊不然怎麼辦反正不是這個這條違法不是"},{"start":5881.787,"end":5899.443,"text":"移工的違法就是違約的違法 哪一條多 哪一條少所以我要拜託這個整體的一個營造業勞工的情況我也拜託啦 因為你這麼能不能多跟這個我們勞動部真的要多溝通一下好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5909.161,"end":5926.454,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請陳舒悅委員謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長"},{"start":5934.535,"end":5940.06,"text":"主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭司法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭司一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是"},{"start":5953.231,"end":5979.12,"text":"有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆"},{"start":5980.28,"end":5995.96,"text":"第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條"},{"start":5996.801,"end":6017.689,"text":"的一個修正的精神當然就是說要落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權"},{"start":6019.009,"end":6041.178,"text":"因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第11條第4款"},{"start":6043.46,"end":6052.405,"text":"被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格 即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好 就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會報告委員"},{"start":6071.838,"end":6089.996,"text":"就是說這個是技師懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係的人來移送"},{"start":6090.596,"end":6113.486,"text":"那麼依照目前祭司法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對祭司不盡公平因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了"},{"start":6114.046,"end":6122.629,"text":"所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位"},{"start":6131.73,"end":6157.893,"text":"是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的"},{"start":6159.054,"end":6178.185,"text":"包括土木水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補助要國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個層次等級的不同可能這是一般的技術性的比如說工地的這個"},{"start":6179.826,"end":6197.32,"text":"主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障"},{"start":6199.469,"end":6227.379,"text":"因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對 因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少"},{"start":6227.799,"end":6251.028,"text":"是 那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些"},{"start":6253.23,"end":6268.722,"text":"專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前也在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個"},{"start":6270.383,"end":6286.276,"text":"資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是"},{"start":6287.917,"end":6316.444,"text":"內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何"},{"start":6319.696,"end":6335.675,"text":"好這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用"},{"start":6336.695,"end":6360.686,"text":"這個入資的產品或品牌那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮樂過程裡面你不能因為禮樂事項去使用這一些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機敏的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範"},{"start":6363.672,"end":6373.736,"text":"採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個"},{"start":6392.243,"end":6418.335,"text":"大陸監視器貼牌然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開所以這部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全"},{"start":6421.447,"end":6444.732,"text":"確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊又就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業"},{"start":6445.813,"end":6465.134,"text":"這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範"},{"start":6466.803,"end":6490.355,"text":"報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業那主委是政委啊所以我們跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間"},{"start":6491.963,"end":6511.579,"text":"是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間"},{"start":6514.993,"end":6527.765,"text":"坦白講這個資訊這部分我也是外行那我不知道這個從我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請許富奎委員"},{"start":6551.842,"end":6580.671,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們陳主委陳主委主委早主委我想今天我們交委會是審查祭祀法我想這個是一個落實對這個性障礙族群的一個尊重那我們會來支持不過今天還是有幾個我們實際面上的一些問題來請教一下主委主委,您看這個投影片上面主委不知道這是什麼地方"},{"start":6587.986,"end":6609.603,"text":"主委我想今年恆春建成邁入150週年我們過去也一直積極跟文化部我們也積極爭取恆春古城的一個修復跟整建文化部今年也特別編了3億多的經費目前這個案子是送到我們工程會進行審查不曉得主委知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":6622.372,"end":6641.763,"text":"就是基本設計的審查是不是目前審查的進度好那目前的進度是還在計畫寫審就是他會送國外會之前會請各機關表示意見那工程會在寫審當中目前在進行中"},{"start":6644.015,"end":6664.452,"text":"主委因為我過去我也跟著我們潘孟安縣長我們也在縣政府服務那我們都很關心這個恆春古城的一個整個整建的因為這是我們現在不像台灣保留最完整的一個古城牆我們也希望能夠做一個未來對一個觀光發展的一個整建之後對觀光發展有一個很正面的注意我想我們這個李一德副主委我們過去"},{"start":6665.553,"end":6682.146,"text":"在政府同時的時候我們一直在努力做這個事情那但是因為現在考量到整個工程的經費還有這個城牆有些緊鄰私人地的一些問題所以變成這個工程的確實有一些難度存在那所以文化部我們接觸到文化部的"},{"start":6683.086,"end":6709.568,"text":"他們在規劃設計上有要採取一個分段發包的一個策略我個人是覺得這樣分段發包會讓整個恆春的這個市鎮的周邊會變成長期的一個工地化的一個現象或是反而會影響到交通跟一個混光的一個發展那主委這部分依你的尊嚴有沒有辦法協助做怎麼樣的一個規劃可以讓工程能夠一次到位一次來做處理"},{"start":6711.312,"end":6740.224,"text":"這部分我們是請李德副主委來跟文化部來會商看用什麼方式既能夠完成這個修復然後也避免這個同時間周圍都在進行工地施工的狀況那李副主委在屏東待過嘛所以我請李德副主委來跟文化部來協商副主委那我們就找個時間我們約大家一起來討論一下好不好好"},{"start":6742.804,"end":6748.332,"text":"因為古城的部分還有面臨一個問題就是我們很多身障的朋友以過去古城是有階梯的一個狀況要被撈出去這樣子的一個"},{"start":6753.617,"end":6774.029,"text":"銜接的一個波度又很陡所以造成這個有些做輪椅的朋友他想要站在街上有一些困難點那如果針對這樣的一個行動不便的長者或是輪椅族的部分像這樣的一個設施部分主委能不能提供什麼樣的一個建議來做改善是歷史建築吧"},{"start":6775.546,"end":6779.85,"text":"那我可能要尊重文化部的意見整個修復的設計整個都會有文化部的神意"},{"start":6787.759,"end":6808.995,"text":"好 那我們也會來理解啦來跟文化部看看有沒有可能做這樣的設施那這樣設施會不會有沒有違反原來它國定普及的相關的規定文字法裡面有些是規定的因格對 所以就是因為有困難所以才要請主委用個想辦法看怎麼來協助啦好像請理事會一併納出這個對啦 讓我們的長者還是一些腎臟的朋友也能夠"},{"start":6815.8,"end":6841.731,"text":"趁現在看到整個高雄的情形主委我想我們現在大家也都很關心美國關稅的風暴經濟部這邊有宣布我們要擴大公共建設的投資從200億到2500億的增加維持GDP佔比跟去年水準相同主委你目前知道我們有哪些部會進行擴大公共設施的規劃嗎"},{"start":6846.985,"end":6873.271,"text":"經濟部的設施是不是公共建設目前目前預算今年114年的法定預算已經審議了那這個是在還沒有關稅充其之前編訂的經過大院來審議所以各部僅能針對114年度的法定預算那麼去做施作"},{"start":6875.203,"end":6903.741,"text":"並沒有特別的預算來增加擴大公共建設這件事情據我了解應該沒有沒有啦主委我想那我們還是要回歸到我們現在目前的整個公共工程跟營進業這個缺工缺料的一個問題啦那目前依據我們國土署發布的一個營進業的一個經濟概況目前缺工的人數高達五萬三千人那一年增加四千多將近四千三百人的人數在增加主委"},{"start":6904.401,"end":6931.118,"text":"這沒有人,這工程是怎麼進行,尤其我們自己在,看到我們像過去我一直在請主委幫忙,尤其殯董關我們有偏鄉有離島,這個很多工程發包,經費要比其他的地方要更高,才會在這裡衝上來,那這個衝上來,他們也擔心工人找不到,這都很多的一個結構性的一些問題,那主委這邊有沒有什麼好的一個想法?"},{"start":6932.632,"end":6958.098,"text":"報告委員如果是公共工程的話有必要的話可以專案來協助那麼引進移工那另外呢工程會目前也跟考試院或其他大學在討論如何在偏鄉來協助培訓相關營建管理的人才跟大學合作落地取材"},{"start":6958.878,"end":6980.108,"text":"對這就是比方說設在屏東或是在花蓮我們現在目前是東部是很缺啦東部很缺所以我們就是特別要跟大學合作那麼來讓大學招生他有學分班但公共工程委員會也會針對我們原來的課程培訓也會加進去那麼希望就地取材讓就地的"},{"start":6980.868,"end":7003.915,"text":"居民他有這個一技之長然後投入當地的營建業或者相關的管理是我們目前在規劃這樣的事情是就陳儒剛剛我們有幾位委員特別提到包含過去我也接受過代替像我們現在很多我們的住在屏東高雄的鄉親因科企分發到東部或到北部調不回來是因為"},{"start":7004.955,"end":7020.12,"text":"我們台鐵的招考東部跟北部招考都不順利因為我們的新制結構的問題那我過去有跟他們溝通說就像主委剛提的你應該就東部或北部在地的主體去增加怎麼樣一個誘因給他們可以科技留在那個地方做服務"},{"start":7021.54,"end":7040.599,"text":"讓我們這個大家都能夠有機會可以調回自己的家鄉來做好不然這因為這整個人力的結構調來調去都不是好就跟這個狀況一樣沒有在地就地取材的這個培訓這因為我們都面臨很多的問題包含剛剛講的縣政府的這個土木的"},{"start":7041.42,"end":7063.543,"text":"這少年給扣住了,過不幾年兩年,他有那個技師牌,他就自己處理開業了他不會想要留在公家機關啦我們也都很擔心這樣一個問題的產生啦所以主委我想這個是我們未來要一起再努力的一個方向那最後我想就是針對未來這個營建工程的物價指數的調整的部分那我想我們也擔心許多的"},{"start":7064.744,"end":7091.814,"text":"重大的公共建設的流標的情形越來越嚴重我想這個部分是不是請主委我們在兩個月之內針對這樣的一個缺工缺料的部分給本席一個報告好不好要怎麼來做改善好謝謝好謝謝等一下蔡其昌何欣淳許智傑質詢完休息十分鐘"},{"start":7093.168,"end":7107.664,"text":"好 現在我們請蔡奇昌副院長謝謝主席 請工程會陳主委請主委"},{"start":7115.781,"end":7137.159,"text":"主委今天針對祭司法有幾個版本在進行相關的修法但這個本席對這個版本的內容我是沒有太大的意見要請教但是我對這個祭司法這個法令我就很有興趣來請教就教一下主委"},{"start":7138.3,"end":7157.575,"text":"這個我們祭司法裡面規範的科別祭司的科別總共有32科主委這個你應該很清楚那我把它做了一個統計這個有一些科別我隨便舉個例子因為我的選區是海濱亞我們有一個漁撈業的祭司這個85旁邊農役121"},{"start":7168.209,"end":7196.383,"text":"主委這個85跟121是有這個科別以來到今天的數字還是一年的數字我請這個有這個法 請我們同仁來幫忙回答包委那是全部的數字好 所以副主委那你當副主委時間也不是很長所以你會不會覺得很奇怪我們祭司法"},{"start":7197.814,"end":7213.747,"text":"這個法規存在 然後要來考這32項類別裡面 有一些類別從有這個法 有這個祭司執照的法 有這個祭司法開始到今天只有85張 就發了85張的祭司嘛 對不對有些發100多張 紡織工程65張"},{"start":7221.326,"end":7225.83,"text":"這個冶金工程35這個更低那礦業安全32請問一下這個像這些數量極低從開始到現在都連100張都達不到的他是"},{"start":7237.78,"end":7254.515,"text":"這個行業根本不需要這個專業執照還是說根本很難考所以沒有人考得上他到底有沒有檢討過這個原因是什麼這個整個企業環境在改變啦然後所有的企業的內容都改變比方說以前魚撈"},{"start":7255.896,"end":7275.234,"text":"那可能有些輪機長啊或者是大副啊他是需要考這個執照的那是不是已經減少需求了,比方說冶金那冶金過去是有,冶金科的大概有成大跟過去的台北工專"},{"start":7276.195,"end":7297.85,"text":"可是現在都轉型成材料因為材料都已經進入這個高科技啊到台積電去啦所以液晶會比較少都到材料科學去了所以就整個需求有改變啦是是是所以主委我其實你這個你點出了本席其實疑問的地方啊就是說第一個會不會是我們當時在立這個法的時候啊"},{"start":7298.61,"end":7313.225,"text":"的確有這樣的一個要求跟需求那後來產業形態的改變這個產業沒落所以這種需求就減少第二種會不會是這種需求市場上所需要的人他根本不需要技師執照"},{"start":7314.426,"end":7333.883,"text":"第三種我們政府相關在這方面的人才的規定譬如說土木技師你就有規定這個行業哪一種行業他要做什麼必須要簽證要有土木技師合格的簽證他才可以所以有一些行業根本沒有任何的需要簽證所以他幹嘛去考"},{"start":7334.977,"end":7363.375,"text":"那我的意思是說所以不管他哪一個原因或理由主委你有沒有覺得有沒有必要把這一部祭司法重新好好的來調整而不是只有我們在講這個罹患精神疾病身心障礙啦等等這些地方要不要審查啦等等會不會應該要回歸到這一部祭司法裡面隨著時代的演進到今天為止立了這個法結果有一些項目32個項目裡面根本"},{"start":7364.678,"end":7391.366,"text":"我是常這是總共嘛或許有可能有一些科別可能已經五年了可能沒比多少年一個人來報考都沒有所以主委你覺得這應不應該好好的來把這一部技師法這種核心問題好好的來檢討一下那這個謝謝委員的這個意見我們再跟考試院來協商有些考試科目是否"},{"start":7392.714,"end":7418.861,"text":"的確如果長年沒有人報考那麼還是不是有必要檢討或者社會根本沒有這種需求這必須要跟考試院來一下就是各個行業也了解一下然後考試院詢問一下然後實際在產業運作的需求面再清楚的認知一下我們就可以好好的把這個祭司法這個法令核心的問題我們好好來做一個檢討這第一個"},{"start":7422.142,"end":7448.722,"text":"第二個針對這些科別裡面這個大地工程技師這個歷年報考跟錄取人數我們把它做一個統計我們就可以發現從110年開始我們改了一個考試方法叫做兩階段考試就是考兩次的意思那你看可以從過去大概都250人以上甚至高達390人"},{"start":7451.741,"end":7454.646,"text":"的報考人數一下驟減成15跟22那"},{"start":7458.909,"end":7486.988,"text":"這個倒考人數更低只有11跟12那入取人數當然相對比例上沒有低因為他等於有一半考上了有一半考上不會比你一階段考的時候不會比那個雙軌制考的時候來的入取率來的比例來的低好那112年開始我覺得可能我們發現這個一下子人數不合理不正常的驟減所以我們又恢復這個雙軌制"},{"start":7489.21,"end":7506.032,"text":"那主委你對於這個這個驟減啊導致可能業界人才的需求不足或者是工會好像也有提出一些看法嘛那主委你覺得這個大地工程技師到底這個出了什麼問題"},{"start":7507.179,"end":7529.242,"text":"很有的人程度比較好他認為分兩階段考試太麻煩了但是也有說如果分兩階段考試那麼有的人可以充分的準備這個也是很好的一個概念那到明年開始到底要恢復兩階段還是雙軌"},{"start":7530.703,"end":7546.699,"text":"我們正在跟考試院在商議當中這個必須由這個商議妥適之後他們再來決定到底是兩階段或者是維持一階段或者是雙軌同步那我們也會跟工會來討論OK這個市場"},{"start":7551.363,"end":7571.192,"text":"大力工程技師市場有需求大家才會關心如果他跟其他業別一樣根本沒有人在考那這個其實就不需要在這裡討論他討論方向應該是這個要不要要存費但看起來他大家很關心所以他數字不合理不明顯數字不合理非常明顯的驟降"},{"start":7573.614,"end":7580.686,"text":"從那個比例縮減可能是九成啦所以那個比例是非常不合理的驟降所以這裡面一定有一些"},{"start":7582.477,"end":7607.268,"text":"問題存在那站在立法院監督的立場我們一定希望執照不可以亂發嘛這個祭司一定要學有專精要合格要怎麼樣啊但是呢市場也有他的需求面嘛就市場他你連續好幾年都大地工程祭司都沒人扣得掉或者錄取的比例很低的情況底下那可能在引起市場供需的問題上面也會出問題"},{"start":7608.268,"end":7620.893,"text":"所以我覺得這個數字它不合理它會驟降八九成以上的它背後一定有一個原因所以我還是會希望工程會跟考試院"},{"start":7623.714,"end":7643.929,"text":"會後針對這個問題 恐怕要好好研究因為數字 如果說你說就減個10% 20%甚至30% 我們都還可以理解但是一下子這個報名人數這個少了大概九成有這個其實我覺得就不合理啦所以主委 這應該可以來了解一下立即跟考試院來商量好 OK 謝謝"},{"start":7653.135,"end":7654.935,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請何欣竹委員好 謝謝趙偉 我們請陳清德主委請主委"},{"start":7683.703,"end":7705.56,"text":"委員長主委長 政委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安 對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作"},{"start":7706.701,"end":7722.511,"text":"那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢 轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦 品質啦還有呢 他的安全啦 協調等等啦那還有 當然還有一個原則性的"},{"start":7726.753,"end":7744.955,"text":"有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢"},{"start":7746.357,"end":7772.427,"text":"很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善"},{"start":7773.667,"end":7794.442,"text":"但是呢 越改越不安全 這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部 一個是內政部國土署對 他們提出來 內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些"},{"start":7800.566,"end":7822.251,"text":"改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4"},{"start":7828.447,"end":7838.094,"text":"交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要"},{"start":7839.094,"end":7857.141,"text":"國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委"},{"start":7858.502,"end":7874.703,"text":"我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範"},{"start":7875.945,"end":7888.788,"text":"而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本"},{"start":7890.363,"end":7915.101,"text":"交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準"},{"start":7918.069,"end":7937.254,"text":"主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術"},{"start":7940.135,"end":7965.193,"text":"標準對不對那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁"},{"start":7966.935,"end":7981.643,"text":"我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有我們的自行車還有機車"},{"start":7984.244,"end":8009.404,"text":"同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦主委"},{"start":8013.119,"end":8040.317,"text":"地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質"},{"start":8042.038,"end":8069.009,"text":"還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公"},{"start":8070.009,"end":8081.082,"text":"我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的"},{"start":8085.051,"end":8103.199,"text":"建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地質疑的地方"},{"start":8104.24,"end":8119.481,"text":"我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕"},{"start":8119.861,"end":8145.978,"text":"不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求或是我們怎麼樣的來希望"},{"start":8150.101,"end":8161.209,"text":"第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改"},{"start":8175.558,"end":8190.734,"text":"好 又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是"},{"start":8199.502,"end":8221.35,"text":"大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們"},{"start":8222.817,"end":8238.252,"text":"覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟"},{"start":8239.013,"end":8261.787,"text":"都內 那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路 又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼 產業道路走走走 也會變做市區道路啊各位以前五分的車走路 走走走 現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊"},{"start":8262.677,"end":8285.194,"text":"那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好 我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個"},{"start":8288.937,"end":8305.609,"text":"行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些"},{"start":8307.75,"end":8322.699,"text":"改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府的內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少"},{"start":8325.321,"end":8346.036,"text":"那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助"},{"start":8346.958,"end":8368.224,"text":"交通部跟內政部這些 因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜啦 是啦你也來自宜蘭縣所以你也知道嘛要有些是該有因地制宜的狀況"},{"start":8369.304,"end":8389.782,"text":"那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢如果我們的公共工程要做得好"},{"start":8391.26,"end":8414.122,"text":"那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失"},{"start":8415.9,"end":8443.523,"text":"你去問了一下 我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程"},{"start":8444.437,"end":8461.859,"text":"你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足"},{"start":8464.46,"end":8480.187,"text":"所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好"},{"start":8481.467,"end":8506.832,"text":"這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段"},{"start":8508.547,"end":8523.222,"text":"那媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人"},{"start":8525.402,"end":8537.049,"text":"我剛剛我所知道的谷關公務段那是其中一個單位 那個也很艱難的單位啦因為為什麼 要去到國關嘛 國關是雷山台八線嘛那三點半也沒有人要去 年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢 再加上它的危險性相對的高 風險相對的高所以呢 人撈不住啦大概喔 就算被分發到那裡待了三年滿可以走的一定都走人啦"},{"start":8554.232,"end":8572.975,"text":"那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了"},{"start":8575.34,"end":8602.258,"text":"基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資"},{"start":8606.898,"end":8623.896,"text":"所謂值等的部分事實上是對地方政府的值等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高值等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員"},{"start":8624.725,"end":8644.702,"text":"對啦 我是希望提供這一個點 這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段 或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下 大概普遍從中央到地方政府 只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務"},{"start":8645.723,"end":8667.771,"text":"人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦"},{"start":8669.332,"end":8690.383,"text":"我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後"},{"start":8691.283,"end":8706.729,"text":"可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中"},{"start":8723.902,"end":8742.225,"text":"好 接下來質詢是我們許智傑召委謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好"},{"start":8746.252,"end":8770.312,"text":"辛苦了 主委 我想其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師 包括工程人員 包括薪資這些是很膨脹的 要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是 我們可以盡量去想 盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度"},{"start":8771.772,"end":8799.463,"text":"就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為"},{"start":8801.107,"end":8811.932,"text":"最低標的缺點就是低價強標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是"},{"start":8828.629,"end":8851.685,"text":"要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票"},{"start":8854.23,"end":8871.886,"text":"還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦"},{"start":8872.918,"end":8897.057,"text":"那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場我們會修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說"},{"start":8898.806,"end":8913.207,"text":"我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場我們會改成陰啦就是現在是德嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改"},{"start":8915.995,"end":8941.274,"text":"那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦"},{"start":8942.862,"end":8970.99,"text":"所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利 變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識"},{"start":8972.37,"end":8994.336,"text":"所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅說的那樣你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大"},{"start":9000.077,"end":9016.506,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實"},{"start":9018.187,"end":9045.65,"text":"很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主機都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主機在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說"},{"start":9046.711,"end":9057.107,"text":"資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則"},{"start":9058.46,"end":9085.171,"text":"我請副主委來跟您說 包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做我意思是我們政府民意要注意的 因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式 買一樣的衣服要再倒或是要修補的那種有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能 也有這種可能性"},{"start":9085.931,"end":9108.398,"text":"我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對"},{"start":9110.265,"end":9136.09,"text":"因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問一下落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了"},{"start":9138.646,"end":9167.209,"text":"我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊"},{"start":9171.829,"end":9189.528,"text":"它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道"},{"start":9190.109,"end":9206.223,"text":"那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救"},{"start":9207.994,"end":9212.637,"text":"後面的後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係"},{"start":9222.455,"end":9243.806,"text":"他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT只想要建所以他會走公司生產採購那建完以後那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分他也可以採用政府採購他也可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意了解"},{"start":9251.43,"end":9255.872,"text":"醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設再工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼"},{"start":9268.478,"end":9294.164,"text":"這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想了所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候假設我現在要不去也要注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好"},{"start":9295.12,"end":9318.373,"text":"就是在畜餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始"},{"start":9320.954,"end":9328.62,"text":"甚至有的是 比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦 高鐵 我舉例高鐵的經營鐵道局在做的時候 一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛"},{"start":9336.807,"end":9356.572,"text":"那他一定有他的想法 但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了 是比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小 就是信職主委 我們熟考一下啦他要回到 你也有可能要再後退的那個B案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導"},{"start":9358.297,"end":9380.582,"text":"或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦就說醫療這個地方如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不只是我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好 謝謝"},{"start":9391.324,"end":9392.725,"text":"休息,休息十分鐘"},{"start":10018.732,"end":10031.925,"text":"好 現在開始開會 我們請黃建豪委員好 謝謝主席 主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委"},{"start":10039.485,"end":10068.063,"text":"好 委員好主委好 主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合訂說從6月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠留才的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微有陳情就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎"},{"start":10069.124,"end":10091.851,"text":"他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公募買來的高嘛那我也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向"},{"start":10092.671,"end":10093.773,"text":"請副主委來說明 因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了"},{"start":10106.956,"end":10123.514,"text":"行政機關土木工程人員人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年行政局已經有做過檢討已經有建立了一些9任的獎金制度"},{"start":10126.917,"end":10153.834,"text":"那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啊他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能"},{"start":10154.754,"end":10169.847,"text":"覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高但是我們也這部分有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫的也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方"},{"start":10170.888,"end":10187.969,"text":"所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理"},{"start":10189.33,"end":10207.031,"text":"好 謝謝我想 既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦 就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承 能夠留才我想這對公務機關 對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩 好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照"},{"start":10209.153,"end":10228.005,"text":"可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照"},{"start":10229.326,"end":10256.827,"text":"所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個最有利標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個最有利標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我想就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致"},{"start":10258.248,"end":10277.183,"text":"好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這個事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼這麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好"},{"start":10284.862,"end":10300.948,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為他是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情"},{"start":10301.508,"end":10329.818,"text":"那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分"},{"start":10330.598,"end":10344.18,"text":"每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是110年120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼"},{"start":10347.2,"end":10362.486,"text":"這應該是說 集合的啟動 實際上我們一個是移送集合 另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8%"},{"start":10367.565,"end":10381.875,"text":"6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個"},{"start":10383.596,"end":10405.936,"text":"既然有這樣的數據喔 剛才也提到了 包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚 因為其實就我所說 因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有續定跟考照的啊 他才能去辦採購嘛 對吧那這考試內容有問題呢 還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是想知道說到底是什麼原因 你如果說"},{"start":10406.937,"end":10428.655,"text":"前兩年假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但我想採購法上路那麼多年每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦前面幾年數據高大家可以理解後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決"},{"start":10431.058,"end":10450.458,"text":"那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得"},{"start":10451.784,"end":10470.89,"text":"會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定"},{"start":10471.63,"end":10491.898,"text":"那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實"},{"start":10493.338,"end":10513.444,"text":"過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講說黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞嘛一個是公司停權"},{"start":10514.424,"end":10526.581,"text":"但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包就這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法"},{"start":10532.188,"end":10547.276,"text":"那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來"},{"start":10549.975,"end":10568.29,"text":"報告委員,整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商,不只是得標廠商嗎?可能包括它的供應商,包括它的分包商,原則上我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員,會一併來檢討"},{"start":10573.26,"end":10597.437,"text":"那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險"},{"start":10599.238,"end":10621.574,"text":"那我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據"},{"start":10623.655,"end":10649.207,"text":"所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝"},{"start":10657.438,"end":10675.698,"text":"謝謝我們請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請邱若驊委員好謝謝主席主席請工程會主委請主委"},{"start":10682.259,"end":10708.171,"text":"委員好主委好主委本席在今年的3月17日曾經就新北市的捷運山陰線延伸到桃園巴德這一岸就是向您提出質詢那當時也特別提醒主委因為國際原物料價格持續上漲那會直接影響到工程的預算那延遲確定只會讓成本越來越高那本席當時也舉了三個國內公共工程的案例嘛因為原物料波動而調漲的預算"},{"start":10710.272,"end":10737.391,"text":"預算的案例 那主委請問您還有印象嗎工程會本身針對物條的部分讓廠商能夠 就是執行中的啦能夠物條的一些原則跟法規有在檢討啦有在檢討 那委員提的這個個案如果是因為的確是這樣的事情它的方向是應該是走修正計畫"},{"start":10738.852,"end":10753.417,"text":"是 本席當時也有向主委提出希望您能向院長反映那請行政院技術核定捷運山陰線延伸到桃園八德那距離上次質詢後剛好80天主委請問這段時間您有沒有跟院長提起這個案子"},{"start":10754.745,"end":10779.247,"text":"我們是整體性的跟院長提了很多案那有包含這一案嗎 有可以可以這段時間內有沒有向院長提出這一案我記憶所提是個案沒有跟院長個案沒有提出那OK好那本期還建議還是要就三一線延伸到八德這一案還有他相關的公共工程的問題就叫主委主委您知道目前三一線主體工程的進度到哪裡了嗎"},{"start":10782.352,"end":10801.382,"text":"我是不是我們有去查核工程會有沒有掌握主委沒關係因為時間因為時間的關係那根據最新的資料到今年4月他進度是83.19%沒錯那預計何時完工預計何時正式營運那工程會這邊知道嗎"},{"start":10816.587,"end":10835.675,"text":"我們會安排一個時間去視察這條捷運線它預計今年會年底會完工然後明年正式營運那主委那這樣看下來你應該也不知道那今年4月21日的時候新北市長也都有帶人親自去試乘然後還有視察看無人駕駛的測試那整體的工程進度已經到了最後的階段了"},{"start":10836.155,"end":10849.569,"text":"那我們看到捷運三星線延伸到巴德這個案子從去年9月30號交通部他送交行政院到今天為止已經拖258天都還沒有通過核定主委你知道這件事拖那麼久這樣的行政效率您認為合理嗎"},{"start":10851.414,"end":10865.249,"text":"原委員報告不只是這個個案有很多案在核定過程也因為種種因素啊那麼有重新再檢討那麼再審議啦並不會是針對這個個案說258天沒有核定那這樣的行政效應您認為合理嗎"},{"start":10872.284,"end":10892.541,"text":"不是行政效率 有的大概基於整體的考量或是經費 或者是相關的因為時間的延宕 它會影響到工程的經費那它已經卡在行政院258天那它這個計畫 它的基電後擴期限也從去年的6月19號延到今年的6月19號那主委 您知道這個嚴重性嗎"},{"start":10894.901,"end":10913.796,"text":"當然這個整個計畫能夠如期如子來解決民眾的需求是行政院一向的目標如果說有一些狀況不允許不只這個山陰縣還有其他重大建設整個進度也都"},{"start":10914.436,"end":10938.644,"text":"本期今天要和主委討論的是經費的問題因為是時間上面行政效率的問題那我這邊要舉我們桃園綠線延伸到中立的後擴經費大漲的案例嘛那這個計劃原本是在2017年後擴他預算編列90億2018年呢決標調整到97億那沒有想到當時呢隨著COVID-19還有烏鴉戰爭還有缺工缺料等因素加上美國關稅"},{"start":10940.024,"end":10965.254,"text":"等種種因素影響下那最後在2025年也就是今年他調漲到了220億從原先編列的90億調漲到了221億他的漲幅呢非常驚人高達144%那本是不希望捷運三陰線他變成下一個代價高昂的拖延那所以這部分您能來協助嗎我想這個"},{"start":10967.458,"end":10980.986,"text":"增為220億的部分不單純是物條不單純是物價那會有改良的新因素請主委說明我印象所及這個縣應該有一些涉戰的涉戰或設計的改變的問題那"},{"start":10986.83,"end":11005.068,"text":"其他的重大建設我想行政院會整體來考量優先次序然後盡量滿足地方的需求是 那本席剛剛也有提到這條三陰線延伸到桃園八德它如果沒有辦法在今年6月19號獲得核定那它一定接下來也會經費也會實質的暴增"},{"start":11007.728,"end":11020.797,"text":"那這個經費到時候又是由地方政府來負擔那主委你也擔任過宜蘭縣的代理縣長沒有錯吧那你知道對這個這個費用的保證對地方政府的財政"},{"start":11023.064,"end":11040.099,"text":"會帶來什麼樣的影響這個同樣對中央政府的主管機關也帶來很大的壓力啦是很大的壓力那既然是地方除了地方的這個經費之外中央也會補助嘛所以同樣都會有壓力啦"},{"start":11041.252,"end":11061.031,"text":"是 那本席要跟主委這邊反映就是說過去行政院他以LB12A跟LB13這兩站他的出站人數還有運量不足的問題他遲遲不肯核定那本席也有向桃園市政府提出多次協調提出對策那對於這兩站市府認為有涉站的必要性建議保留"},{"start":11062.632,"end":11082.891,"text":"另外LB12A站市政府則是暫時站不設立那如果對來都市發展有需求的話他可以再後續再進行擴充設站那您是工程會的主委也是政務委員您認為地方政府都已經做出務實的妥協跟回應了那行政院還有什麼理由再來卡關呢"},{"start":11083.58,"end":11094.963,"text":"好 這個我會跟交通部來瞭解是 那什麼時候可以有得到主委的回覆我跟交通部瞭解整個狀況之後再跟委員報告OK 好 再請主委協助 謝謝好 謝謝 我們請中交兵委員"},{"start":11121.69,"end":11133.861,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政務機關長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們陳主任委員請主委跟公共工程採購的部分的主管也可以請上來"},{"start":11137.73,"end":11159.562,"text":"主委好 其他的主管好我想今天來請教不只是您是主委 您也是政委我提到川普的關稅政策重視非紅供應鏈那麼政府採購是不是要排除特定地區來保查任性 我們往下看川普政策大家都了解其實在上個月 4月到5月我們在經濟委員會在關心一題"},{"start":11160.765,"end":11176.652,"text":"在台灣的汽車因為美國他的關稅的關係他認為只要是有中國成本35%的修飾為中國車要刻意非常高的關稅甚至禁止進口但是在我們台灣經濟部的規定"},{"start":11178.123,"end":11198.99,"text":"我們的整車產業它事實上它的自治率要逐年調高到35%今年8月以後才到30%甚至我們知道台灣的整車廠它的很多零組件是來自於對岸因此就有委員質疑說那這樣的車子能符合美國對於非紅供應鏈的要求嗎主委你認為可不可以通得過這可能要請教美國吧"},{"start":11203.433,"end":11230.062,"text":"是 你要請教一下 打電話給您但是呢 我得到進步的答案是說台灣的整車業沒有在賣美國市場的啦因為台灣的整車業在美國市場沒有競爭力所以我們這樣的設置雖然跟美國認定標準不一樣但是呢 不受影響好了 但是呢台灣的供應鏈有很多來自中國或者是中國以外的第三地那這樣的一個組成的產品"},{"start":11230.882,"end":11234.183,"text":"甚至來到台灣組裝 可以供應給台灣的本國市場嗎這四位是 副主委好 李陳副主委對不起喂你好 那個我想公共產品是只有在主管在有關政府採購的部分是的 這有交問你的下一題對 所以我們的理解應該是從政府採購的部分那因為我們有加入GPA嘛"},{"start":11257.228,"end":11285.526,"text":"那原則上它有一個原產地的原則啦那這種非成員國的這個產品到底它經過什麼樣的一個資質轉換才會改變成是它產地別啊那這個這部分的主管機關據我所知應該是在財政部它有一個認定的辦法那是稅的問題海關的認定問題這我知道我在財政委員會好我們看下一題既然你說政府採購我就要問政府採購其實政府採購呢它其實"},{"start":11286.929,"end":11312.799,"text":"美方關鍵的是飛鴻但是我發現我們政府關鍵的是台制 國制譬如說政府補助如果是經濟部關鍵的領主件你要符合滿足我對這個產業關鍵的領主件的我才給你補助 這合理嘛對不對 我政府要給你的錢必須你滿足我的政策要求主委是不是這樣子所以政府補助要求要參與的業者你必須滿足我的正面表列我才給你 同不同意"},{"start":11313.649,"end":11329.494,"text":"我想這是經濟部的業務啦他如果符合經濟部的相關規定我現在要問的是政府採購但是政府採購我們可以在採購合約要求供應商是限本國國產製品嗎可不可以可以限嗎"},{"start":11331.63,"end":11345.758,"text":"啊你怎麼認定它是國產製品就是你說的財政部的只要財政部認定是就是是你們是這樣的標準嘛對不對好但是主委現在開始進入深水區了我們可以要求自製率嗎你的公共採購可以要求自製率嗎非GPS的也可以要求自製率好那我可以要求你的供應的產品關鍵零組件必須是國產的嗎"},{"start":11358.919,"end":11375.253,"text":"好 那我先問一個有關於資安的晶片你們是把它放在哪個資安資訊產品是要求自製力還是要求國產製品還是要求你的這些有含有晶片的工程機具必須不得有中國的零組件的晶片可以要求嗎好"},{"start":11380.202,"end":11397.402,"text":"部長其實我今天要來談的是什麼呢就是在公共工程的採購當中啊其實我們的合約因為有其他的WTO的一些規範我們不能製造一些非關稅的障礙因此呢我們必須對有能力的全世界的廠商提供開放但是"},{"start":11398.183,"end":11419.192,"text":"有正當理由的時候我們還是可以限定譬如說我們的採購的財貨如果說有屬於供應鏈韌性的問題譬如說這個產品是中國供應的這個零組件是中國供應的但是一旦它不供應了我就買不到了那因此一開始我就不跟你買可不可以這樣子供應鏈韌性的部分 副主委完全沒有關係"},{"start":11426.98,"end":11453.438,"text":"所以我們的公共工程採購合約可以明明白白的把各種的要求都排除中國的產製的零組件可以嗎那就是看那個目的世界主管機關他採購機關的需求合約上面都可以限都可以要求所以要拜託主委也拜託政委現在我們很多公共工程的採購合約他其實是一個標準的套裝但是在因應著各個機關我上次有問過要有一個減核表"},{"start":11454.278,"end":11476.889,"text":"有些不同的機敏設施有些不同的勞務採購我們要嚴防治安的風險嚴防紅色供應鏈對我們的服務的一些威脅所以我希望未來公共工程委員會在提供這些契約的模組的時候請你們先幫這些可能應用到的機關先設想好有哪些模組"},{"start":11478.05,"end":11495.976,"text":"或者你可以要求他全部限定是國產製品或者你要求他要有一定的自製率或者你要求他在關鍵零組件不得是哪些特定產地的或者是必須用本國產地的尤其是像晶片像資安甚至是一些會影響我們供應鏈韌性的舉例來講"},{"start":11499.018,"end":11514.075,"text":"電動車電動車目前我們的政府採購合約裡面並沒有要求電池不能使用中國製造我們都知道電動車的市場裡面電池中國是個最大的可能也是做得最多最好的也有可能所以要用有競爭力的電動車多半會採用中國的電池"},{"start":11517.239,"end":11531.216,"text":"但是因為採購合約裡面沒有限制因此得標廠商得標之後往往面臨一個困局他能得標 表示他的CP值很高他可能必須使用最有競爭力的零組件來構成但是一旦沒有得標廠商來檢舉說他怎麼用綜合電池"},{"start":11534.755,"end":11552.342,"text":"工程會能夠裁說這個合約無效嗎不行啊但是使用機關會產生什麼很大的困擾你買了電動車結果裡面電子是中國製的這個輿論披露還得了嗎這個不見得是我們的契約精神但是是社會上的常識認知會衝突"},{"start":11553.823,"end":11563.406,"text":"所以我要請主委也請政委這個部分拜託工程會開始去做我們所有公共政府採購相關合約不管是勞務採購還是設備採購還是工程採購可以將這些模組研發出來"},{"start":11571.345,"end":11596.196,"text":"政府採購法是提供給政府機關進行各種採購的依據那至於機關他需要什麼不需要什麼機關他會記恆佐那關於是不是中資產品中資等等採購法以及相關規定或者是機敏的國安採購對相關的管制跟規定那我們也正這個在修正相關的來"},{"start":11597.617,"end":11612.526,"text":"工程會本身無法替每個機關想到他需要什麼就把它建立一個模組說你可以要這個不要那個我們在採購法是提供給大家採購就我們就法律的修正原則性的來修正是可以能夠達到委員"},{"start":11613.787,"end":11640.246,"text":"這個希望的這樣的要求啦謝謝主委因為我在地方政府過去也是擔任屬於政府採購當中的一個參與者我了解工程會有提供這些資源服務包括所謂的評審名單啊等等等所以我這要求的也不是說我們幫使用機關的政府做決定而是說我們幫他讓他提醒他有個檢核的表對於採購契約的限制條款有哪些是可以他們去應用去思考的"},{"start":11640.586,"end":11656.492,"text":"不是幫他們訂定採購合約而是建議他們再有一個指引我希望公共工程委員會可以訂一個指引然後呢在這個指引當中特別重視到我們現在要求的供應鏈的韌性所謂的供應鏈的韌性是對我們有安全妨礙的或是會不時的斷貨"},{"start":11659.333,"end":11684.395,"text":"就是說任意斷貨不符合契約精神但是造成我們使用方的困擾的類似這種狀況的條款我們給他充實或者提供指引那幫助很多地方政府並沒有能力去研發他也不曉得買這個東西會有這個地雷所以我是不是可以請工程會基於這樣的供應鏈韌性這個理由之一來對我們政府採購契約的限制條款提供一個指南或一個指引可以嗎 就像剛剛副主委所講的"},{"start":11684.775,"end":11697.959,"text":"必要的時候就再補充相關的解釋然後函班給各機關好謝謝主委那是不是這樣的一個一個作為可以提供給本席這邊來瞭解我們的進度或作為可以嗎謝謝主席也謝謝主席好謝謝我們請永浩委員"},{"start":11715.238,"end":11717.2,"text":"謝謝曹偉 謝謝主席 有請陳金德主委請主委"},{"start":11725.709,"end":11743.981,"text":"委員好主委好那延續剛才鍾嘉賓委員所提到的這個部分那當然說目前來講在工程委員會在許多企業的部分模組的部分那有一個指導跟包括法規的主委機關的一個角色但是剛才所提到這蠻有趣的就是"},{"start":11744.801,"end":11762.524,"text":"川普的這個衝擊之下那到底是是要排路還是要針對這個我們的產業來去進行這個扶植啊那我覺得說國防從委員會雖然是在政府採購法跟包括的政府的採購契約上面是主管機關但是"},{"start":11763.525,"end":11777.591,"text":"有些的一個是不是能夠扶植像你剛才講到電動汽車的這個電型電池到底是陸資還是在我們國內來講是不是有扶植相關的一些產業它能夠有這些補貼措施那我是覺得說"},{"start":11778.891,"end":11794.337,"text":"就是主委因為您雖然是說工程委員會的主委他不用去對其他的部會做相關的一個指導因為你們就依法規來去辦理這個事務跟做法律的解釋但是因為曾經的主委您是身兼行政院的政務委員"},{"start":11795.177,"end":11817.085,"text":"那所以說在這個許多的部會的業務推行推展的話您是非常清楚的所以我會建議說主委針對這個目前包括像剛才所電動車的這個電信電池還是不是能夠扶持相關產業除了在是否為陸資的一個認定跟契約採購的這個解釋之外我覺得其實可以更有更大的一個"},{"start":11818.085,"end":11829.319,"text":"這就是責任是說如果是相關的這培育我們國內的產業啊那能夠具有競爭力啊那您有曾委員的身份應該也可以給有更多的建議啊好不好"},{"start":11831.236,"end":11859.005,"text":"經濟部來了解好那再來的話針對5月11號您在宜蘭這邊有提到工地放領的政策那當然說你是去特別針對宜蘭蘇澳的台拓的土地80公頃在未來來講3月要完成放領那甚至是內政部跟財政部以及宜蘭縣政府還不得超過8月底那當然說在網路跟媒體的討論當然是好壞都有"},{"start":11859.505,"end":11873.057,"text":"但是我是覺得當然只要還地於民還對於我們農民的一個就是相關的權益能夠獲得提升那絕對是一個正向的事情那但是在後續來講的話其實整個"},{"start":11875.399,"end":11892.785,"text":"在全台的相關公定放領的一個政策我相信這個議題其實主委也主導了許久那除了宜蘭之外後續全台灣的一個公定放領包括台拓或是其他的一個國土地放領的一個方向上是不是可以趁這個機會再說明一下"},{"start":11896.619,"end":11910.596,"text":"南澳台拓地的部分主要是因為它是平地耕地20年前就審查通過要放民20年前就經過內政部的公立放民審議委內審議原則通過放民"},{"start":11914.48,"end":11942.644,"text":"那後來因為其他的因素這個放臨就停下來停下來20年所以這次是重新檢視當年已經審查通過的個案來試辦那事實上準備了很久將近一年的時間我說三個月是因為都已經進行的相關都已經有名冊照冊什麼都有了所以現在只是要進行相關的分割等等所以三個月是OK的"},{"start":11942.884,"end":11962.279,"text":"我今天來講對這個政策我是樂觀其成因為從921討治颱風之後從2002年到2008年工地放領其實是陸續的停辦到現在所以就像你剛才所提到這20年那在宜蘭的話我坦白講這個先不說是否是因為選舉或是政策的一個特別的一個"},{"start":11963.94,"end":11989.375,"text":"一個選舉的規劃那我是說像南投縣的話其實有許多還期待著就是公立放嶺政策或者像是相關的林場或是像是竹山的瑞竹鼎林大安合作社台中南投至少有11000公頃將近8000餘戶那我想知道在規劃上在未來南投公立放嶺的一個規劃跟啟程或是相關的計畫如何因為我不希望是只有宜蘭而已"},{"start":11991.004,"end":12014.104,"text":"報告委員我剛剛講說是事辦事辦是挑以前已經核准的那這裡放零的部分包括平地耕地還有山坡地還有養殖用地甚至園墾農各式各樣的樣態不同那我想這個主辦機關是內政部那內政部自然他們會根據他們的規劃那麼去考量我想這個是內政部會有所討論"},{"start":12015.686,"end":12030.883,"text":"那沒關係因為其實您是政務委員那其實對於這個議題你也關心許久啊那所以說不要說是在宜蘭那我也希望說同樣在您在督導的業務來講在南投縣那其實許多的農民他們也在期待的看到"},{"start":12031.503,"end":12044.044,"text":"宜蘭縣的這個政策出來的時候事辦政策出來的時候就有許多的民眾農民來問我因為我地方的區域立委啊那他們就會說那南投的相關的工地放零什麼時候會開始來進行那我們同時也必須要對民眾來進行回應說明"},{"start":12046.604,"end":12065.095,"text":"因為是適用不同的法規他每個機關每個用地是不同的法規平地是平地那所以說目前來講的話這工地放棄就只有宜蘭蘇澳的這一件有他的法規的就已經可以來進行那未來有沒有第二階段其他法規可能要再去中整所以所以針對宜蘭"},{"start":12065.775,"end":12082.093,"text":"不會內政部是針對這件事辦之後他會他的衡量是不是有一些法規要修正等等才進一步我想可能你可以向內政部去了解那我還是要麻煩陳主委因為你對南投也有幫忙啦那個開閉颱風"},{"start":12083.174,"end":12108.611,"text":"那我也希望說您是政務委員的身份也能夠幫忙南投農民而不只是在宜蘭那因為內政部的話他們現在的話整個心思都在是不是改中正路中山路連我的母校中正大學都可能都有受到波及的可能性啊所以我坦白講工地範圍的話也是內政部主管的業務那如果可以的話麻煩您用政務委員的身份能夠盡量的來協助讓我們南投能夠早日有工地範圍的一個示範或好成績啊"},{"start":12111.151,"end":12127.42,"text":"繼續去了解相關的法規目前的適用的狀況那有需要調整有需要修正有需要整理的我會督促內政部來辦理好 謝謝那最後的話這時間我再補充就是公共風險採購案的話在目前來講碳排係數跟管理規範"},{"start":12128.4,"end":12144.406,"text":"是不是能夠有針對各縣市來去做一個連結或是包括各縣市能夠做配合以及包括是否規定廠商要提供碳排的報告那目前所做的這個提供報告的比例 產業的比例以及說碳足跡是否納入評選的標準跟時程"},{"start":12146.187,"end":12160.976,"text":"那同時碳足跡的一個資料庫的建置還有綠色材料優先採購以及對中小企業的輔導及補助機制因為時間有限所以再麻煩工程會能夠用書面的方式再提供一個本席好 謝謝"},{"start":12171.089,"end":12194.176,"text":"好 謝謝 現在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定報告諮詢到完畢委員廖先祥所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請行政院公共工程委員會儘速以書面答覆"},{"start":12196.991,"end":12199.613,"text":"本日會議做以下結論討論事項個案均另定期繼續審查本日會議結束 散會"},{"start":12223.793,"end":12224.854,"text":"這裏是建築中心"}]}},{"id":"16732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16732","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e1c393f606ce943215e5a7d9476abbdb3fdab1a38f0d348c0902f9ed9561df3a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院財政委員會報告併案審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人、委員鍾佳濱等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等27人、委員柯志恩等16人、委員廖先翔等17人、委員李彥秀等17人、委員賴惠員等25人、委員王美惠等18人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」及委員賴士葆等27人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之五條文修正草案」案。二、委員張智倫等19人、委員林倩綺等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員蔡易餘等17人及委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等5案。三、行政院函請審議、委員邱若華等17人及委員陳俊宇等21人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等3案。四、委員游顥等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-05T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:35:00+08:00","duration":3855,"影片長度":"01:04:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 - 09:35:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2025060353","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1991.01096875,"end":1991.8378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1991.9728437500003,"end":1994.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2002.6378437500002,"end":2006.5359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2007.6497187500001,"end":2011.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2011.6828437500003,"end":2013.3534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2013.8259687500001,"end":2015.1759687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2015.7159687500002,"end":2017.2347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2017.5047187500002,"end":2018.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2018.5509687500003,"end":2019.3609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2019.9009687500002,"end":2020.2553437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2020.6097187500002,"end":2022.3647187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2022.51659375,"end":2024.5753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2025.2840937500002,"end":2026.5159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2026.6340937500001,"end":2027.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2027.9672187500003,"end":2029.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2030.3465937500002,"end":2031.7134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2033.48534375,"end":2043.0197187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2044.9434687500002,"end":2045.1122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2046.2259687500002,"end":2047.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2051.03534375,"end":2064.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2065.1934687499997,"end":2067.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2068.77096875,"end":2071.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2071.70721875,"end":2073.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2074.18784375,"end":2088.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2088.6834687500004,"end":2090.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2091.01221875,"end":2093.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2094.3365937500002,"end":2096.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2097.03659375,"end":2099.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2100.4453437500006,"end":2104.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2105.22096875,"end":2110.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2110.70534375,"end":2122.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2122.3659687500003,"end":2123.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2124.6778437500006,"end":2126.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2126.3484687500004,"end":2128.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2127.58034375,"end":2128.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2129.14971875,"end":2130.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2131.68096875,"end":2132.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2137.5028437500005,"end":2138.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2138.14409375,"end":2138.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2138.1609687500004,"end":2139.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2138.2115937500002,"end":2139.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2139.1228437500004,"end":2139.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2141.4684687500003,"end":2142.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2144.0672187500004,"end":2146.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2146.6490937500002,"end":2149.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2149.88909375,"end":2176.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2176.70346875,"end":2177.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2177.2265937500006,"end":2196.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2196.76784375,"end":2198.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2198.59034375,"end":2198.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2199.7715937500006,"end":2200.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2202.69096875,"end":2216.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2217.0684687500006,"end":2227.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2228.52659375,"end":2229.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2229.37034375,"end":2239.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2239.4278437500006,"end":2239.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2240.54159375,"end":2243.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2244.4228437500005,"end":2248.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2248.4053437500006,"end":2250.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2251.2740937500002,"end":2265.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2265.7528437500005,"end":2267.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2266.7147187500004,"end":2267.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2267.4403437500005,"end":2268.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2268.18284375,"end":2268.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2268.80721875,"end":2268.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2268.8240937500004,"end":2269.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2269.02659375,"end":2269.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2270.59596875,"end":2300.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2301.1228437500004,"end":2304.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2304.90284375,"end":2306.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2306.9784687500005,"end":2309.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2309.3240937500004,"end":2318.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2321.0859687500006,"end":2324.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2324.2753437500005,"end":2325.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2326.21596875,"end":2328.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2326.4522187500006,"end":2326.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2327.48159375,"end":2365.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2366.68221875,"end":2367.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2367.9647187500004,"end":2368.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2368.96034375,"end":2370.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2370.0234687500006,"end":2370.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2371.6940937500003,"end":2415.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2415.3328437500004,"end":2472.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2473.0790937500005,"end":2478.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2479.00221875,"end":2484.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2484.06471875,"end":2485.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2485.2459687500004,"end":2487.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2487.2372187500005,"end":2513.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2496.65346875,"end":2498.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2498.94846875,"end":2504.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2507.7909687500005,"end":2510.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2512.1278437500005,"end":2513.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2513.4609687500006,"end":2513.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2513.49471875,"end":2513.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2514.0009687500005,"end":2519.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2517.71346875,"end":2518.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2520.1434687500005,"end":2521.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2522.28659375,"end":2524.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2522.4384687500005,"end":2531.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2527.53471875,"end":2531.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2532.04034375,"end":2536.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2532.27659375,"end":2533.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2535.78659375,"end":2538.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2537.23784375,"end":2539.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2538.9928437500002,"end":2544.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2542.23284375,"end":2544.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2544.29159375,"end":2544.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2544.3084687500004,"end":2544.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2544.6797187500006,"end":2551.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2547.5653437500005,"end":2547.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2547.9872187500005,"end":2548.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2552.40846875,"end":2572.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2561.62221875,"end":2563.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2563.9678437500006,"end":2564.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2564.7440937500005,"end":2565.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2565.0309687500003,"end":2566.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2567.7647187500006,"end":2567.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2567.78159375,"end":2570.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2570.1103437500005,"end":2570.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2570.43096875,"end":2570.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2570.49846875,"end":2572.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2572.6922187500004,"end":2575.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2579.29034375,"end":2580.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2580.6572187500005,"end":2612.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2613.0740937500004,"end":2616.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2616.3309687500005,"end":2618.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2618.6765937500004,"end":2632.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2633.0709687500002,"end":2652.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2652.8653437500006,"end":2684.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2684.64096875,"end":2687.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2687.8134687500005,"end":2688.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2689.4840937500003,"end":2700.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2701.6003437500003,"end":2721.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2721.69846875,"end":2725.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2726.7947187500004,"end":2728.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2729.5284687500007,"end":2732.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2733.3253437500007,"end":2735.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2735.87346875,"end":2748.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2749.25534375,"end":2787.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2787.4265937500004,"end":2805.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2806.74846875,"end":2819.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2819.75909375,"end":2828.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2829.41159375,"end":2831.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2831.2340937500003,"end":2832.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2833.7147187500004,"end":2917.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2917.63409375,"end":2927.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2927.3034687500003,"end":2929.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2930.1384687500004,"end":2940.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2940.41534375,"end":2945.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2946.22034375,"end":2948.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2949.27471875,"end":2952.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2952.9197187500004,"end":2959.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2959.4334687500004,"end":2964.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2964.3778437500005,"end":2967.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2967.95534375,"end":2973.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2974.04721875,"end":2978.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2978.6540937500004,"end":2979.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2979.3797187500004,"end":2981.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2981.94471875,"end":3018.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3019.1034687500005,"end":3023.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3023.35596875,"end":3023.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3023.6934687500006,"end":3023.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3023.9972187500007,"end":3024.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3024.2840937500005,"end":3024.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3024.97596875,"end":3058.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3058.35471875,"end":3067.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3068.0915937500004,"end":3069.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3069.9815937500007,"end":3072.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3073.37346875,"end":3073.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3074.0653437500005,"end":3075.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3076.2928437500004,"end":3076.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3077.10284375,"end":3077.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3080.12346875,"end":3081.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3083.19471875,"end":3091.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3091.26096875,"end":3097.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3097.9772187500002,"end":3103.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3104.11971875,"end":3104.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3104.8622187500005,"end":3105.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3107.2753437500005,"end":3108.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3108.69284375,"end":3110.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3111.1228437500004,"end":3111.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3112.5065937500003,"end":3113.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3114.34596875,"end":3114.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3114.90284375,"end":3116.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3116.23596875,"end":3117.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3117.31596875,"end":3117.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3118.37909375,"end":3120.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3120.6403437500003,"end":3121.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3122.7159687500007,"end":3125.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3125.4665937500004,"end":3126.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3127.4072187500005,"end":3128.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3128.87534375,"end":3130.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3130.37721875,"end":3130.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3130.8497187500006,"end":3131.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3131.94659375,"end":3133.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3134.29221875,"end":3138.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3134.5790937500005,"end":3135.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3139.79346875,"end":3141.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3142.2740937500002,"end":3144.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3144.8222187500005,"end":3145.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3146.05409375,"end":3157.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3155.21721875,"end":3155.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3157.7315937500007,"end":3164.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3164.3465937500005,"end":3165.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3166.13534375,"end":3167.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3167.87346875,"end":3168.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3168.0084687500002,"end":3168.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3168.6159687500003,"end":3170.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3170.03346875,"end":3170.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3170.0840937500006,"end":3170.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3170.47221875,"end":3170.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3170.52284375,"end":3171.6534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3171.6534687500007,"end":3171.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3171.73784375,"end":3173.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3173.84721875,"end":3175.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3178.2178437500006,"end":3179.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3179.2978437500005,"end":3179.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3179.61846875,"end":3179.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3179.6690937500007,"end":3179.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3179.68596875,"end":3180.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3179.7872187500006,"end":3179.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3180.2597187500005,"end":3180.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3180.34409375,"end":3180.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3180.88409375,"end":3195.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3188.49471875,"end":3188.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3188.96721875,"end":3189.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3193.4728437500007,"end":3198.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3198.7715937500006,"end":3202.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3199.21034375,"end":3199.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3200.3409687500007,"end":3200.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3200.42534375,"end":3201.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3202.51784375,"end":3212.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3214.76909375,"end":3220.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3221.38409375,"end":3222.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3222.66659375,"end":3224.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3224.8097187500007,"end":3227.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3227.35784375,"end":3229.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3230.49659375,"end":3231.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3231.20534375,"end":3232.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3232.84221875,"end":3233.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3234.05721875,"end":3234.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3235.1034687500005,"end":3235.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3235.96409375,"end":3237.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3237.97221875,"end":3239.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3239.7947187500004,"end":3240.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3240.73971875,"end":3241.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3241.3640937500004,"end":3243.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3242.4103437500007,"end":3243.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3243.38909375,"end":3249.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3244.46909375,"end":3244.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3250.02096875,"end":3252.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3251.6240937500006,"end":3252.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3252.8897187500006,"end":3257.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3258.6103437500005,"end":3265.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3263.6053437500004,"end":3266.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3266.7947187500004,"end":3268.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3269.2078437500004,"end":3269.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3270.1190937500005,"end":3271.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3272.0597187500007,"end":3273.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3273.52784375,"end":3273.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3273.5447187500004,"end":3275.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3276.4472187500005,"end":3278.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3279.83909375,"end":3281.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3281.7459687500004,"end":3282.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3284.1759687500007,"end":3284.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3284.47971875,"end":3289.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3287.02784375,"end":3287.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3288.71534375,"end":3289.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3289.91346875,"end":3294.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3292.57971875,"end":3297.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3297.4734687500004,"end":3297.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3297.8278437500003,"end":3301.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3299.75159375,"end":3300.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3301.30409375,"end":3304.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3302.2322187500004,"end":3303.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3303.12659375,"end":3303.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3303.2109687500006,"end":3303.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3303.97034375,"end":3304.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3304.0378437500003,"end":3304.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3304.2234687500004,"end":3304.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3304.6622187500006,"end":3304.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3305.5059687500006,"end":3308.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3308.1553437500006,"end":3311.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3308.54346875,"end":3309.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3309.3028437500006,"end":3309.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3309.4884687500007,"end":3309.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3310.63596875,"end":3311.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3311.91846875,"end":3314.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3314.8884687500004,"end":3315.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3316.01909375,"end":3316.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3316.0528437500006,"end":3316.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3319.1240937500006,"end":3321.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3322.6172187500006,"end":3328.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3329.3672187500006,"end":3333.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3334.8009687500007,"end":3343.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3340.5215937500006,"end":3341.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3342.90096875,"end":3349.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3349.39784375,"end":3350.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3353.6334687500002,"end":3355.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3354.17346875,"end":3354.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3354.34221875,"end":3354.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3354.81471875,"end":3354.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3355.2872187500006,"end":3356.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3356.08034375,"end":3356.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3356.4853437500005,"end":3356.6540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3356.6540937500004,"end":3356.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3356.9578437500004,"end":3357.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3357.0253437500005,"end":3358.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3357.53159375,"end":3357.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3357.5653437500005,"end":3357.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3358.02096875,"end":3358.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3358.5272187500004,"end":3360.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3361.1934687500006,"end":3362.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3362.7459687500004,"end":3363.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3364.1465937500006,"end":3365.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3365.8340937500006,"end":3366.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3367.04909375,"end":3367.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3368.6690937500007,"end":3369.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3369.8165937500007,"end":3370.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3371.5378437500003,"end":3371.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3371.58846875,"end":3371.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3371.6053437500004,"end":3371.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3372.0778437500003,"end":3376.1447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3374.11971875,"end":3375.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3376.95471875,"end":3378.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3377.42721875,"end":3377.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3378.3553437500004,"end":3378.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3378.4228437500005,"end":3380.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3378.4903437500006,"end":3379.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3379.46909375,"end":3382.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3381.2409687500003,"end":3384.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3385.5440937500007,"end":3386.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3387.4003437500005,"end":3389.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3388.9190937500007,"end":3389.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3389.84721875,"end":3390.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3390.67409375,"end":3390.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3390.7753437500005,"end":3392.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3392.8340937500006,"end":3394.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3394.4540937500005,"end":3395.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3395.5340937500005,"end":3395.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3396.3103437500004,"end":3397.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3398.7403437500006,"end":3399.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3399.95534375,"end":3401.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3402.3515937500006,"end":3403.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3405.03471875,"end":3407.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3407.26221875,"end":3407.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3408.71346875,"end":3409.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3409.5909687500007,"end":3410.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3410.4853437500005,"end":3411.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3411.41346875,"end":3411.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3412.4090937500005,"end":3412.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3413.10096875,"end":3414.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3414.5859687500006,"end":3414.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3415.5984687500004,"end":3417.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3417.0665937500007,"end":3417.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3417.26909375,"end":3418.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3418.0284687500007,"end":3418.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3418.5684687500006,"end":3418.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3418.83846875,"end":3418.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3418.8722187500007,"end":3423.3947187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3419.0240937500002,"end":3419.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3419.8678437500002,"end":3420.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3420.1378437500007,"end":3420.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3420.27284375,"end":3420.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3420.39096875,"end":3421.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3421.42034375,"end":3421.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3421.5047187500004,"end":3421.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3421.9772187500002,"end":3423.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3423.3947187500007,"end":3423.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3423.6815937500005,"end":3423.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3423.69846875,"end":3423.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3423.71534375,"end":3437.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3423.7490937500006,"end":3424.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3426.83721875,"end":3426.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3426.95534375,"end":3427.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3427.02284375,"end":3427.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3427.56284375,"end":3427.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3427.6134687500007,"end":3427.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3429.1490937500002,"end":3429.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3429.55409375,"end":3429.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3429.67221875,"end":3429.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3435.1903437500005,"end":3435.6290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3437.38409375,"end":3438.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3438.05909375,"end":3438.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3438.7003437500007,"end":3441.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3441.5353437500007,"end":3446.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3448.4540937500005,"end":3449.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3450.3947187500007,"end":3451.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3451.2215937500005,"end":3451.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3451.8290937500005,"end":3452.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3453.0272187500004,"end":3454.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3454.4278437500006,"end":3455.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3456.4022187500004,"end":3458.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3458.79846875,"end":3459.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3459.8953437500004,"end":3460.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3460.72221875,"end":3462.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3463.0847187500003,"end":3463.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3463.96221875,"end":3465.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3464.0465937500003,"end":3468.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3468.5353437500007,"end":3469.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3469.1765937500004,"end":3471.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3472.8047187500006,"end":3474.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3477.22596875,"end":3478.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3479.03159375,"end":3481.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3479.3184687500006,"end":3485.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3486.03471875,"end":3487.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3487.35096875,"end":3488.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3489.08909375,"end":3489.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3489.15659375,"end":3489.2072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3489.2072187500007,"end":3489.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3489.5615937500006,"end":3489.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3489.57846875,"end":3489.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3489.7809687500003,"end":3489.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3489.94971875,"end":3490.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3490.0847187500003,"end":3495.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3492.4472187500005,"end":3496.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3498.6403437500003,"end":3498.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3498.67409375,"end":3498.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3498.80909375,"end":3499.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3500.36159375,"end":3500.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3500.37846875,"end":3513.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3500.61471875,"end":3501.0197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3501.03659375,"end":3501.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3501.1715937500003,"end":3501.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3506.9765937500006,"end":3509.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3509.0859687500006,"end":3509.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3515.3465937500005,"end":3517.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3517.5909687500007,"end":3519.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3519.76784375,"end":3522.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3523.14284375,"end":3526.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3528.0197187500007,"end":3530.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3530.7197187500005,"end":3531.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3532.0528437500006,"end":3535.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3536.0353437500007,"end":3539.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3539.84909375,"end":3540.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3541.2497187500003,"end":3543.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3544.43909375,"end":3545.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3545.7722187500003,"end":3546.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3547.0378437500003,"end":3548.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3548.82659375,"end":3549.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3550.7840937500005,"end":3551.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3551.83034375,"end":3552.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3552.9609687500006,"end":3553.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3553.9903437500006,"end":3554.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3554.6990937500004,"end":3555.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3556.0997187500006,"end":3557.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3558.41159375,"end":3559.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3560.63909375,"end":3561.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3561.3815937500003,"end":3562.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3562.93409375,"end":3563.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3564.2840937500005,"end":3565.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3565.51596875,"end":3567.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3568.0809687500005,"end":3568.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3569.56596875,"end":3569.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3570.52784375,"end":3570.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3571.06784375,"end":3571.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3571.8778437500005,"end":3574.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3574.62846875,"end":3574.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3574.6453437500004,"end":3575.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3575.1853437500004,"end":3575.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3576.2315937500007,"end":3576.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3576.50159375,"end":3576.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3576.83909375,"end":3578.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3578.42534375,"end":3578.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3578.59409375,"end":3578.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3578.9822187500004,"end":3579.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3579.03284375,"end":3579.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3579.08346875,"end":3579.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3579.4040937500004,"end":3579.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3579.97784375,"end":3580.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3580.0790937500005,"end":3580.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3580.9734687500004,"end":3581.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3581.37846875,"end":3581.4628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3581.6484687500006,"end":3590.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3591.4022187500004,"end":3594.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3595.04721875,"end":3596.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3596.5997187500006,"end":3597.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3597.03846875,"end":3597.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3597.0553437500002,"end":3597.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3597.1228437500004,"end":3599.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3599.5528437500006,"end":3606.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3606.74159375,"end":3608.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3609.1209687500004,"end":3611.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3612.0065937500003,"end":3616.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3616.9003437500005,"end":3618.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3619.2965937500003,"end":3619.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3619.3134687500005,"end":3620.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3619.33034375,"end":3620.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3620.0390937500006,"end":3620.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3620.12346875,"end":3620.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3620.3259687500004,"end":3620.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3620.3259687500004,"end":3621.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3620.54534375,"end":3620.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3622.3172187500004,"end":3625.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3625.79346875,"end":3626.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3627.0253437500005,"end":3627.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3627.10971875,"end":3629.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3629.0672187500004,"end":3629.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3629.4384687500005,"end":3631.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3631.02471875,"end":3632.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3632.96534375,"end":3633.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3633.4040937500004,"end":3638.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3636.9140937500006,"end":3637.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3638.9559687500005,"end":3641.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3641.28471875,"end":3642.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3642.06096875,"end":3646.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3642.17909375,"end":3642.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3642.1959687500002,"end":3643.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3643.02284375,"end":3644.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3646.9715937500005,"end":3649.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3647.9334687500004,"end":3648.2540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3649.3678437500002,"end":3653.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3652.4559687500005,"end":3653.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3653.38409375,"end":3657.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3654.3290937500005,"end":3659.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3658.5984687500004,"end":3662.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3661.5684687500006,"end":3664.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3662.6315937500003,"end":3663.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3664.48784375,"end":3668.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3664.96034375,"end":3664.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3665.0447187500004,"end":3666.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3666.8672187500006,"end":3666.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3667.25534375,"end":3667.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3667.30596875,"end":3668.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3668.2003437500007,"end":3668.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3668.47034375,"end":3668.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3668.9765937500006,"end":3677.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3672.4022187500004,"end":3672.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3672.43596875,"end":3672.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3674.2247187500006,"end":3674.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3674.2584687500002,"end":3674.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3674.79846875,"end":3674.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3675.7772187500004,"end":3676.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3677.14409375,"end":3677.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3677.2790937500004,"end":3677.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3677.4140937500006,"end":3680.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3678.6628437500003,"end":3680.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3680.0465937500003,"end":3680.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3680.3503437500003,"end":3680.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3697.3097187500007,"end":3697.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3697.86659375,"end":3698.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3698.3053437500002,"end":3698.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3699.19971875,"end":3700.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3718.72409375,"end":3718.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3722.68971875,"end":3724.6640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3724.68096875,"end":3726.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3764.9278437500006,"end":3765.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3765.19784375,"end":3765.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3765.55221875,"end":3765.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3765.97409375,"end":3766.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3766.02471875,"end":3766.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3774.9853437500005,"end":3776.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3776.9765937500006,"end":3777.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3777.3984687500006,"end":3777.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3778.3097187500007,"end":3779.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3789.0084687500002,"end":3790.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3790.9659687500007,"end":3791.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3791.10096875,"end":3791.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3791.1515937500008,"end":3796.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3795.31971875,"end":3796.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3804.95534375,"end":3804.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3805.7315937500007,"end":3808.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3807.80721875,"end":3807.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3817.7128437500005,"end":3817.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3817.93221875,"end":3818.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3818.2697187500007,"end":3818.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3818.9784687500005,"end":3819.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3819.1134687500007,"end":3819.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3820.4803437500004,"end":3820.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3820.81784375,"end":3821.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3821.3409687500007,"end":3821.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3822.87659375,"end":3822.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3822.9440937500003,"end":3823.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3823.09596875,"end":3823.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3825.5597187500007,"end":3825.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3842.0465937500003,"end":3842.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3842.5865937500002,"end":3845.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3846.1134687500007,"end":3847.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3848.18909375,"end":3848.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3849.31971875,"end":3850.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3852.20534375,"end":3853.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3853.2853437500007,"end":3854.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3855.22596875,"end":3855.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3856.5084687500002,"end":3856.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3856.5253437500005,"end":3857.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3857.03159375,"end":3857.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3857.94284375,"end":3861.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3861.9422187500004,"end":3866.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3865.11471875,"end":3866.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3866.49846875,"end":3866.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3866.56596875,"end":3866.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3866.97096875,"end":3868.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3867.0553437500002,"end":3867.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3868.60784375,"end":3868.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3879.9140937500006,"end":3881.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3880.4372187500003,"end":3880.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3887.5753437500007,"end":3888.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3888.4697187500005,"end":3888.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3888.5203437500004,"end":3888.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3905.96909375,"end":3906.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3907.9772187500002,"end":3909.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3910.1203437500008,"end":3913.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3913.9678437500006,"end":3915.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3915.19971875,"end":3915.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3917.0222187500003,"end":3918.5578437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3923.02971875,"end":3923.6203437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3925.0378437500003,"end":3927.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3927.0290937500004,"end":3927.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3927.97409375,"end":3928.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3928.6153437500006,"end":3945.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3929.42534375,"end":3930.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3934.3865937500004,"end":3934.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3936.0234687500006,"end":3939.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3940.39409375,"end":3940.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3941.5584687500004,"end":3941.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3941.59221875,"end":3944.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3947.56596875,"end":3955.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3956.2059687500005,"end":3957.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4013.68221875,"end":4014.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4014.9647187500004,"end":4016.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4032.76784375,"end":4033.4090937500005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1991.047,"end":1992.808,"text":"來這個部長啊以及各位委員我們就趕快"},{"start":2008.551,"end":2031.18,"text":"來討論一下 這三次已經討論過一次了我們再一次今天無論如何也把他送出去了因為不要影響到這個相關的一個議程部長你不能講一下你三次討論過了連兩次了你有沒有你最後的堅持還是說最後的你希望是什麼判斷這樣"},{"start":2034.051,"end":2042.746,"text":"謝謝趙委還有各位委員大家找我們當然希望是按照院版的版本是不是請各位委員能夠支持"},{"start":2051.656,"end":2066.594,"text":"謝謝主席這個原本就是說是到156年然後再給你們行政授權再延長一次兩年違憲是不是那我的提案是說"},{"start":2068.837,"end":2088.052,"text":"就直接是到188年其實是最後的結果有可能會是一樣的我在想啦因為我覺得你不可能說你到了這一個116年的時候你就覺得說這個效果不好或者說已經沒有需要再這個減稅了然後呢 所以你就不做了"},{"start":2088.752,"end":2099.125,"text":"那我是覺得說那既然最後的結果有可能是一樣的話那我覺得就直接延長到118年12月31號就好啦"},{"start":2100.795,"end":2120.694,"text":"而且你這個是實際的狀況實際推轉的情況這個其實是蠻抽象的啦什麼叫做實際推轉的情況這個其實就變成說不明確的一個概念性那另外我本來還有提一個啦這個是關於這一個我看看喔15的啦"},{"start":2124.724,"end":2138.617,"text":"沒有 我們現在只有討論十一之一好 那就先講這一條好了先講這一條這條比較急來 我們周委員有沒有意見當然有 委員是張先生 張委員嗎不然你講你講周委員先講來"},{"start":2144.11,"end":2160.462,"text":"就只限在11條之一好不好因為11條好謝謝主席署長各位委員大家好我們認為就是針對經濟部這個有關於節能加電比如說電冰箱冷氣機主持機等等過去以來這樣子的政策"},{"start":2161.283,"end":2172.953,"text":"其實讓很多的這個消費者可以享受到這個節能家電的一些優惠所以我們當然是希望說在這114年6月15號要截止希望可以延長到116年的12月31號那麼也樂見財政部說"},{"start":2177.476,"end":2178.096,"text":"好 最後一題"},{"start":2202.708,"end":2227.524,"text":"好 謝謝張委的安排我們看到今天要討論的十一條之一呢有清楚的 謝謝整理出一個非常清楚的表我剛剛聆聽了昆城委員他是落在一二三四五六 第六第六欄 如果第一欄是行政院的話那他是在第七欄那張志倫委員呢是在第四欄那我是在第"},{"start":2228.604,"end":2250.595,"text":"三藍那看起來呢行政院的提案會是落在張委員跟李委員之間張委員是直接到116年的年底那麼李委員的是到118年的年底那行政院的是取兩者之間先是到116年年底那事情況可以到118年年底"},{"start":2251.328,"end":2269.057,"text":"那因為我的條件都比上面三個案都還嚴格不過聽起來我可以支持行政院版的提案就是到116年年底那必要時延長到118年年底那這樣子剛好介乎張委員跟李委員的提案之前 以上好我們請黃珊珊委員請就位"},{"start":2270.629,"end":2292.846,"text":"好 謝謝家瑋 我想台灣民眾黨也有一個貨物稅的版本那主要是耗電 高耗電的部分我們同意延長那第二個部分比較特別可能也是各黨團體有提到的就是有關已經不合時宜而且可能也納課不到稅的一些小家電比如錄影機這種根本就不可能再有的東西或者是說"},{"start":2293.627,"end":2317.837,"text":"他在跟其他的同樣3C產品上面的有所謂的課稅上面的差距我們認為直接應該廢除啦所以就是說延長的部分高耗能我們同意但是我們希望能夠增加廢除部分我們已經不合時宜甚至已經課不到什麼稅的這些小家電那這個部分的那個條文麻煩請大家參酌我們也希望大家能夠支持民眾黨辦謝謝"},{"start":2321.138,"end":2345.578,"text":"我現在這兩個 一個是同意他延長 第二個希望廢除第二個廢除的部分就是電唱機 電視機 音響組合 錄音機 錄音機 電烤箱你看現在錄音機 錄音機幾乎已經沒有了那電視機他現在跟所謂的液晶顯示器 液晶顯示器完全不用克水那電視機的部分要克水 這是一個很不公平的狀況"},{"start":2346.519,"end":2369.477,"text":"那這些相關的設備其實都已經是人民生活的必需並不是所謂的奢侈用品那它本身目前也不列為所謂的耗電高耗電的商品所以我認為說我們黨團的立場我們會蠻堅持說是不是應該要先廢除另外就是節能家電的部分我們希望延長到2030這部分那個部長要不要講一下有沒有在這條裡面"},{"start":2371.798,"end":2383.904,"text":"是我先就民眾黨團的建議那個是在第11條並沒有院版裡面沒有提那第11條的所規定的是電器類的課稅項目及稅率所以還有羅列9款課稅項目那這個部分呢我們是建議是這一次我們並沒有納入修正而未來貨物稅條例裡面有關相關要課稅項目的部分我們也準備要委託"},{"start":2399.392,"end":2404.237,"text":"委外來做一個研究看是不是要就整個貨物稅條例來做一次檢視我想這個部分是不是未來再來做討論那至於第十一條之一剛剛各委員所提的一個建議版本第一個謝謝各委員都支持有關耗能的一個家電"},{"start":2415.827,"end":2420.148,"text":"能夠鼓勵民眾去買節能家電然後給予貨物稅的退還那就是其一點在於延長的期間那有委員建議到116年的12月底那也有委員建議直接延長到118年的12月底"},{"start":2433.172,"end":2444.216,"text":"那這個部分院版為什麼會建議的條文是到16年的12月底然後必要時由行政院再來延長兩年主要是因為節能家電這樣的一個我們現在的條文是所謂的一級跟二級那未來我們這個電器設備因為隨著科技的進步它的節能的"},{"start":2455.279,"end":2472.723,"text":"未來的標章會不會只是所謂的一級二級會有更先進的一個方式我們會認為說也許這個科技的進步以及家電用品它是屬於消費型的也許進步的會更快使用的年限也會短那所以我們是不是認為說到兩年的時候我們如果有更新的"},{"start":2473.423,"end":2496.141,"text":"節能家電出來而它又不是所謂一級二級的話那到那個時候我們應該更鼓勵消費者去買更高的一個節能效能的一個家電所以我們認為到先到1160的12月底然後到那個時候我們再檢討如果有更高效能的出來的話應該更鼓勵往那邊去那這個時候我們的內容也許可以做一些修正然後再"},{"start":2496.701,"end":2513.308,"text":"如果沒有變的話 照你這樣講就贏兩年就好了啊兩年以後再來就好 對啊 如果這樣就贏兩年了但是如果沒有變的話 那就可以由行政授權不可以行政授權這麼長的啦 哪有這樣子的 租稅法定主義 這個稅法絕對是定名定的啦你要傲驕傲 我絕對反對 我給你事都可以"},{"start":2522.518,"end":2550.847,"text":"我一會去給你試給試的話那如果在這個當中有一個更進步的你再提啊 你再提啊再提方案就好啦要修啊 再來修啊為什麼你要有一個行政授權給你兩年呢那你就這樣子 不可以的啦行政授權的話行政授權的話是在於就是說沒有行政授權給你可以減稅 行政授權呢沒有 那其他的條文也是有我們大概檢視在第九條之一"},{"start":2553.709,"end":2566.294,"text":"同樣是貨物稅條例裡面在9條之1跟12條之3也都有相關就是說行政院得釋實際情形延長免徵稅的行政院不能用行政院自己來決定沒有這回事了來我們要公開問問 還沒講完來請"},{"start":2579.692,"end":2595.765,"text":"謝謝主席我剛剛聽部長的說法分兩階段有授權的兩年半的條款的調整我記得行政院原來版本是直接延長四年半到一億八年年底"},{"start":2596.425,"end":2617.38,"text":"然後後來分階段是因為品項的關係嘛如果更節能的這個項目來做一個彈性調整那我要第一個要問的問題是說所以原則上所謂的這個第二階段還是會執行到這個1180年底嘛只是差別品項而已嘛 是不是應該是 還是嘛那現在就是說呢"},{"start":2618.755,"end":2633.294,"text":"你有沒有去看過過去它的產品週期當中那幾年當中有類似你說的新的更加節能的這個產品的出現才會有你這個條文存在的理由我是覺得我要問的是第一點是這個就是說"},{"start":2633.755,"end":2652.29,"text":"你之所以會用兩年兩年半的條款來做分階段的授權那你因為有擔你會希望說將來如果有更加節能的你可能會品相做一個調整嘛那你要跟我們講說那之前是不是這兩年或兩年半的週期當中有更加節能的這個項目你們有遺珠之憾的"},{"start":2653.13,"end":2682.436,"text":"所以說你們才有這個條款的設立嘛 對不對你要一個事實依據嘛那否則的話以授權條款來說 老實講以前也都有存在嘛就條文內容也都存在嘛所以我要問的是說你為什麼要特別增設這個授權條款這是第一個第二個你剛剛回答黃珊珊委員的一個問題其實是我們委員會一直長期來關心有關於獲出稅哪些項目要減免這從我們第一次來到財政委員會到現在已經搞了不知道幾年了五六年 不知道也問了幾次 不知道幾個委員問了那次數加起來不知道多少了"},{"start":2682.856,"end":2699.848,"text":"你現在告訴我們說你要做一個研究報告,你們以前沒有研究報告過嗎?沒有嗎?對啊,我才不相信你們以前沒有研究報告,而且研究報告老師說很多東西大家已經成為眾所皆知,接近於嘗試的階段,你們還要委外給學者來做研究。"},{"start":2701.73,"end":2725.181,"text":"是拖延還是不願面對還是真的有基本的立場的存在或者有保持可能性的修法你要講清楚啊你不要隨便講一個說我以後接下來要做研究那研究哪些項目那哪些項目是必要的研究項目那些項目有可能會做修改你才來做研究嘛不然你不要一句話跟我們講說接下來再來做研究這根本要呼嚨整個委員會嘛我看法輪候 黃委員你有沒有認同"},{"start":2726.786,"end":2731.152,"text":"好 我們郭偉文講完就先請黃偉先講然後再來信聖部門好 我同意焦偉說的"},{"start":2736.262,"end":2762.709,"text":"稅制還是要法定主義所以還是應該很明確如果是就是不是就不是如果你要來的話兩年後再來不是行政授權當然你說之前有但是我覺得貨物稅這個真的就像郭工委員講的已經質詢太多次每個委員都講了一遍而且過去財政部的行政院的覆改會也多次建議要檢討貨物稅條例而且要整併綠色稅制還有健康稅就碳稅跟糖稅"},{"start":2763.889,"end":2787.117,"text":"這些都已經講了N年了所以現在已經不是再找個藉口說要再拖這些小家電請問現在有誰在買錄音機啊手機就可以錄了然後電唱機音響組合這是人民基本生活需求而已那電烤箱還要電烤箱要另外課稅我實在是不太懂那麼多的家電包括尤其是電視機最不公平"},{"start":2788.137,"end":2805.027,"text":"電視機要課貨物稅液晶顯示器不用現在哪個家庭你家裡的電視機是電視機它大部分都是液晶顯示器可以上網的只要能上網的就叫它3C這個國家不去面對科技的進步而是直接想說我不要把這個稅拿掉那整個貨物稅"},{"start":2806.789,"end":2831.492,"text":"到現在金額電氣類徵收是71億那這取消的話大概是10億左右其實這些真的課徵的必要性是不是真的很高我是覺得真的可以廢了第二個就是你以前的綠色稅是健康稅都不檢討到今天還在講說要去委外我是覺得真的不需要了我們直接把它廢掉他們就不用再研究了好那就請那個署長"},{"start":2834.352,"end":2859.538,"text":"跟委員稍微報告一下其實以前我們電器的節能加電的減增退還減增的貨物稅一般都是兩年那每次又兩年到了那又再修法再延兩年這樣以前都是兩年到期再修法再延那因為委員就會講到說因為這樣好像一直修法延期好像感覺有一點立法上比較複雜"},{"start":2860.598,"end":2884.646,"text":"所以我們這次經濟部跟我們會同研商的結果就是說因為究竟電氣類這個節能效率尤其我國現在又實施碳費明年要報今年的碳費了然後有很多節能減碳的政策會改變必須與時俱進電氣類它本身它是消費性產品它周期很短所以它的革新會更快"},{"start":2885.206,"end":2909.633,"text":"所以我們才會建議說又兼顧了每兩年都要修法一次好像感覺上好像對立法院也是一種困擾所以我們這一次才改變的方法是說也是金融並報就說好那我就延到116年底然後再由立法授權是經過立法授權甚至吳秉瑞也有提到這叫立法院同意我行政院有權實施的狀況"},{"start":2911.613,"end":2926.364,"text":"那所謂實施狀況就是包含譬如有沒有新的產品出來類似這樣好 這個因為我們等一下這個會我們下一個要開另外一個會好不好所以最後一個我都做結論了好不好結論之後我請大家表達意見我跟昭緯做個建議結論就是採取張志倫委員的提案"},{"start":2933.61,"end":2945.177,"text":"因為為什麼會說就延兩年因為剛剛立法行政機關的說明是說貨物稅的調整基本上都是為了優惠延長而要求立法院來做修改"},{"start":2946.26,"end":2966.983,"text":"那立法院好像感覺上呢 不想動一次來就兩年 一次兩年好煩喔 乾脆一次給你四年但是聽起來大部分的委員各黨團意思不是這樣子啊是覺得貨物稅要做根本性的檢討啊剛剛黃珊珊委員就說的嘛要根本性的檢討嘛 電氣類 油氣類 非油氣類要做個根本性的檢討所以不是立法"},{"start":2968.725,"end":2991.423,"text":"機關想要輕鬆給你們比較長的授權或者給你們2加2讓你們自己看著辦而是希望行政機關積極的提出對貨物稅的根本檢討所以 稍微我這邊建議聽起來就是給兩年那如果你們本來想是情況要延長那下次就沒有提延長這樣的一個單一目的了整套的檢討拿出來如果還要延長的話 整套檢討拿出來"},{"start":2992.003,"end":3018.458,"text":"那如果要延長是經濟部這邊會有壓力那財政部呢是不想要動聽起來就像只要提到減稅財政部就不想但是經濟部呢對優惠延長是有需求因為產業發展那既然這樣我們透過經濟部要延長產業需求的動機來要求財政部做整個貨物稅的檢討那我是建議給兩年沒有再多兩年的一個立法上的授權那到時候兩年出來你們把貨物稅檢討一時拿出來由我們本院來審查"},{"start":3019.558,"end":3046.704,"text":"最後一位因為黃委員還是有一點意見我們就不再發言了好不好我才是強調如果還要再等他檢討不如真的這次就直接幫他廢了因為這個東西不是特殊的這已經討論很多年了那這些相關的電唱機電視機音響組合其實都是人民生活必需品它已經不是單純的消費品它以前是把它當成奧奢侈品"},{"start":3047.344,"end":3070.426,"text":"那因為耗能但這些東西都已經我是認為說與其再叫他們再去檢討兩年後再來又跟今天一樣啦這些都已經幾年前都講過了所以我是我們黨團的意思是這一次就直接把這些項目先廢掉另外節能家電給他兩年甚至我們同意給他到2030都可以但是該廢的要先廢這樣子好不好我做結論好不好"},{"start":3073.43,"end":3075.133,"text":"這個先請經濟部經濟部長官你們希望兩年的市民"},{"start":3083.84,"end":3105.455,"text":"從產業發展的角度當然是長一點是比較好不過我們還是要按照願板跟財政部的意見沒有 是要按照願板就我們委員大家做決定我建議啦 我建議 我這樣建議喔幾個方案他各位要去哪一個我們就尊重這裡沒有辦法表決的第一個就是兩個人"},{"start":3107.335,"end":3126.318,"text":"沒有那種什麼兩年授權這東西就是兩年第二個四年就一次給你十年四年一次給你十年經濟部產業發展然後對那個黃委員剛才的我們加一個附帶決議附帶決議對於你剛剛寫的那一些我們是不是叫他"},{"start":3127.455,"end":3141.364,"text":"你看怎麼寫比較好我們負責決議看他脫鍋這樣我們負責決議因為今天沒有討論到十一條你們能不能保留因為這個是黨團的建議黨團蠻堅持的而且這我們已經提案很久了"},{"start":3158.043,"end":3163.454,"text":"飲料類要檢討啊非油氣類的要檢討啊怎麼只有這個電器類的檢討呢我認為電器類的檢討不夠不過電器類是規範11條但是其他非油氣類的"},{"start":3168.666,"end":3176.471,"text":"如果現在全案保留了就全案保留出去我除了擔心他們有時間的問題來不及喔來不及喔"},{"start":3199.106,"end":3223.397,"text":"這個已經是黨團政策很重要的意見黃委員 那個出去朝野協商的時候不一定會比我們現在這裡的協商更有那個效果 是不是如果這樣子 黃委員再因為我是站在一個社會需要的角度就是 兩人是你們在說"},{"start":3224.878,"end":3252.131,"text":"我們先給他說大家有沒有意見可以去讀兩年或者四年然後 你的題目我們馬上審第十一條馬上 下次給你排 下次審第十一條因為其實黃委員民眾黨版本對於兩年四年其實他們沒有特別的意見那我覺得 但是沒有意見就先讓他通過好不好"},{"start":3258.653,"end":3282.53,"text":"我是支持趙偉說我們趕快十一條之一以外的趕快後續再排馬上排好不好我在這裡承諾就下一次排你案子十一條十一條好不好可不可以這樣子那這個先給他出去這樣因為這十一條所以你到底是兩年還是四年我建議四年我們的版本"},{"start":3284.591,"end":3285.618,"text":"我們的版本是到2030嘛"},{"start":3287.928,"end":3309.022,"text":"我們給的更長因為他們要二就要二嘛我覺得一次就給四年啦那你後面的貨物稅要排嗎 什麼時候排就現在兩週後排啊兩週後排排十一條十一條 十一條 十一條還有幾條的 我不知道只有幾條我們一併啦 一併討論啦 好不好十一條以及相關的條文啦"},{"start":3319.582,"end":3332.939,"text":"主席聽起來是時間上的壓力,兩年讓他先過再附帶決議啦主席不能再,但是我們重提就好了啦不能再我們重提啦"},{"start":3334.864,"end":3350.607,"text":"如果按照這樣的話 我們黨團應該是會比較支持四年啦四年好不好 四年齁可是現在那個黃委員現在有個問題是 你的十一條是跟十一條之一放一起沒有單獨一個案子"},{"start":3353.672,"end":3375.738,"text":"同題能不能夠 趕快同題同題要去 院會你下禮拜 我們不要黨了下禮拜二就進程序下禮拜五一讀然後大家不呼籲大家不呼籲下禮拜五就排了好不好這個各黨團都要玩 都要同意大家簽字 大家簽字可以嗎"},{"start":3376.96,"end":3403.768,"text":"我再講一遍喔 我的結論我全部打下 寫在寫商結論裡面寫商結論 第一個四年一次到 第一個這個是送出去了齁我建議四年半啦四年半 四年半 四年半 四年半到118的年底了齁 第一條第二條 請這個民眾黨團你就趕快提案 去連署幹什麼 就快蓋章"},{"start":3405.157,"end":3413.577,"text":"下個禮拜二 程旭下個禮拜五 金淵威通過 我們就 我就排大家不呼籲 大家不呼籲"},{"start":3419.349,"end":3427.713,"text":"今天會整案 整個案子 協商的案子還有11 12-5 12-6 37要維持現行條例對 就是等一下他要讀就是包括11-1之外還有讀11 12-5 12-6"},{"start":3448.522,"end":3470.94,"text":"三十七這個現在控補三十七這他們要讀讀了就維持維持現行條例維持現行條例然後就是請民進黨下禮拜要記得送程序好不好下禮拜我派不是只有我們嗎別的委員還有十一條的版本所以十一條的版本全部都被丟包了嗎今天還是大家都要下禮拜提"},{"start":3479.117,"end":3495.906,"text":"所以那其他人還有很多包啊委員會還有一包在委員會裡面這一包出去另外還有一包在委員會裡面那我的已經不見啦沒有 你可以用修正動議進來不要啦 這黨團提案跟修正動議那個不行啦 我們有黨團版本所以我們要再審黨團版本"},{"start":3498.866,"end":3526.662,"text":"現在還有一包啦下下禮拜還有一包下下禮拜還有一包好不好那我們就提新啊不複議你們就要提啦你們就要提一下麻煩寫在協商結論裡好嗎請黨團不要複議就完成我再講一遍今天本台宣讀完畢以後我們就按照這樣通過就是11.41一次元4年半延到11.18年的底"},{"start":3528.312,"end":3539.259,"text":"12月31號就第一個結論第二個結論行政院的 行政院條文的第四項不予修正嗎就沒有了嘛 我們結論這個 不可能然後第11條第12條之5第12條之6第37條等一下宣讀要不要宣讀"},{"start":3551.014,"end":3578.332,"text":"兒子現行條文 那就不用讀啦不要讀了 不要讀了 好不好那第三點就請這個民眾黨團在下禮拜二這個就送進慈禧委員會禮拜五進委員會大家不複一下下禮拜五排十一條跟相關的條文就這樣子 好不好已經相關條文了 有綱領 好不好綱領就這樣好啦請大家簽字喔 先不要走喔"},{"start":3581.701,"end":3587.184,"text":"其實能源署這邊對這個條文的是非常支持因為對這個不管是產業發展 節能減碳都有正面的功效特別是我們現在在做家電補助"},{"start":3609.195,"end":3616.22,"text":"加點補助再加這個兩千誘因就會更大那至於是延長兩年跟四年我們尊重大院的一個決議以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":3633.473,"end":3648.883,"text":"所以意思就是說申請期已經結束了可是還是繼續會補貼那這個還會再延長嗎?原則上應該會是在115年合併會延到115年合併對 有新集成的機會已經開始了114開始了它這個是修法還是它是自動"},{"start":3649.803,"end":3668.36,"text":"沒有那是行政院給專款然後我們有一個補助的要領那是用補助要領不是條例的要申請再跟我們講一下也是兩千塊三千一台都是三千不管大小三千加兩三是害舊換舊害舊換新舊是要多久"},{"start":3669.101,"end":3669.121,"text":"謝謝韋恩 謝謝"},{"start":3694.837,"end":3707.643,"text":"因為他今天來我們才是願意整潭的大家一起到處照顧我們今天來的老人家我們會一直拉著他們的腰包但是我們還是可以經過我們我們來訪問他們的家庭做過的事情我們就這樣子"},{"start":3716.09,"end":3719.933,"text":"不是只有能源,不是只有碳"},{"start":3739.639,"end":3750.123,"text":"對玻璃很燙 輪胎很燙就存在 汽車很燙有機類很燙 電梯類很燙水瓶類很燙飲料那邊很燙 重大型那邊就很燙我已經接受了對不對"},{"start":3763.817,"end":3765.559,"text":"我們決定呢不要說兩個星期後又來說現在會怎麼樣"},{"start":3782.897,"end":3783.417,"text":"我要簽名"},{"start":3803.329,"end":3803.349,"text":"國產化"},{"start":3842.742,"end":3843.683,"text":"本來是通知他們10點來"},{"start":3856.536,"end":3866.322,"text":"阿這個是想要結論 都簽好了 因為他是照行政院版修正的照行政院版 行政院版不知道116 阿修正阿修正 對對對這個都簽好了 可以拍一張嗎可以可以謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":3883.277,"end":3884.078,"text":"所以我們都會講說"},{"start":3915.372,"end":3925.619,"text":"美国在这个时候,那次到我以后大概还是这样,那是把我给收回来,把我给收回来,都走了,大家不失联以后才会来。"},{"start":3934.964,"end":3939.708,"text":"不好意思那下次我們講清楚了解 了解 了解好好好 不好意思"},{"start":3961.705,"end":3964.629,"text":"這個是公報 公報是公報 公報是公報"},{"start":4014.032,"end":4016.336,"text":"喔 你們沒拿到喔剛簽名的時候"},{"start":4032.955,"end":4033.117,"text":"小柯"}]}},{"id":"162310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162310","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564f1be6dd86b3528d233769fbc08eef2e99b36adcf2fc01751bd9c4a74a059f27d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:29:27 - 12:37:46","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:29:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:37:46+08:00","duration":499,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.00721875,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.04096875,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.23534375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.14659375000002,"end":211.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.16659375,"end":212.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.48721875,"end":232.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.83409375000002,"end":245.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.10659375,"end":305.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.83159375000002,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.45971875000004,"end":385.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.41784375000003,"end":386.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.65409375,"end":386.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.90721875,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.43409375000005,"end":414.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.22784375000003,"end":417.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.60284375000003,"end":418.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.95284375,"end":435.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.98471875,"end":440.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.43971875000005,"end":436.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.51534375000006,"end":437.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.80596875000003,"end":473.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.77159375,"end":475.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.77971875000003,"end":475.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.34909375,"end":475.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.41659375,"end":475.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.45034375000006,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.02409375,"end":476.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.66534375000003,"end":477.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.81721875000005,"end":478.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.56784375,"end":487.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.94909375000003,"end":499.64909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":26.182,"text":"上個禮拜五月二十八中國舉辦了第二屆海峽兩岸中華文化峰會文學論壇出席的作家我就不再一一的念他們的名字了我們認為他們是被叫去北京訓話怎麼說呢這個論壇其實這個峰會他從去年開始是第一屆其實統戰意味非常的濃厚他甚至說而且當時是宋濤到場發表致詞他說兩岸民眾共同堅決反對態度我就不再細講了"},{"start":28.783,"end":35.469,"text":"那這是去年那當然我們台灣現在國內的氛圍我們對於像這樣的統戰我們非常的不屑而且我們認為這確實是一個嚴重影響台灣團結的一個類似像這樣一系列的活動所以他們今年的言論言辭稍微有比較收斂但是我們還是要跟文化部討論一件事情其實事實上在兩岸人民關係條例裡面本來就有明確的規範"},{"start":54.326,"end":57.089,"text":"也就是說台灣人沒有經過主管機關許可不得與中國的政治性機關團體從事對台政治工作的合作行為而且我們也有相關罰則那前一陣子我們看到文化部的態度非常明確的表示相關藝人如果有相關的言論或者是行為或是轉發的貼文"},{"start":76.567,"end":103.481,"text":"都有可能違反兩岸人民關係條例我認為我們這樣的態度非常的明確非常的重要但為什麼我要從這些作家說起我認為目前所有的文化工作者前一張我們所有的文化工作者可能都有這個疑慮他們需要文化部需要我們台灣政府部會給予明確的法令跟規範甚至有更多的宣導跟台灣社會的溝通讓他們知道台灣政府可以做他們的靠山"},{"start":104.682,"end":124.218,"text":"他們再到中國去分享他們的文學創作也好歌曲創作也好他們還是可以自由的去發表可是不應該要配合中國做這樣的統戰言論我想後續要拜託文化部持續做更多社會溝通跟討論也許也可以傾聽他們到中國去到底遇到什麼樣的困境好不好"},{"start":125.166,"end":149.547,"text":"好 謝謝次長那我們來看一下這可能也是文化部過去所忽略事實上在體育署這邊過往我們從中華奧會開始每年都有所謂的六來六往的活動這個是在2020年左右就是比較早期的台灣的狀態那個時候可能大家覺得沒有什麼但是隨著中國對台灣的敵意越來越深包含最近林昀如"},{"start":150.328,"end":174.937,"text":"被戴紅領巾 被安排而這一切 當然 雲儒後來的解釋大家都聽明白 但關鍵是他這個經紀人而這個經紀人不管他是來自於什麼樣的系統我要說的是 體育界過往可能對像這樣的行為大家覺得是一種技術交流 體育交流好像體育不涉政治 但事實上不論是文化 文學 藝術 體育從來都跟政治有關"},{"start":175.957,"end":197.567,"text":"這個部分我們可不可以拜託文化部有沒有機會在三個月內我們來招提預署開會因為如果這一次是相關經紀人的問題那經紀人的相關業務範圍有沒有跟文化部有關文化部如何協助把我剛剛說的你們在協助藝人也好協助文學工作者也好到中國去工作去必須要有的心理認知跟遇到後續的狀況應該要怎麼辦"},{"start":199.648,"end":211.262,"text":"有沒有機會協助體育署以協助所謂這些文學創作者的角色來協助所謂體育經紀人這一塊或者是更多到中國去做交流的人必須要小心被統戰這件事情"},{"start":212.565,"end":232.488,"text":"我想體育署在教育部教育部這邊如果體育署有需要我們去分享一些經紀人如何跟選手或者藝人之間的關係這個我們可以去跟他們做分享至於說文化藝術工作者文化部這邊其實真的一直公開的呼籲我們"},{"start":233.889,"end":260.749,"text":"不反對文化交流我們也支持文化交流可是我們必須提醒我們的文化人對岸其實是充滿了統戰充滿了一個政治上面他們充滿了敵意充滿了統戰他們從來都沒有真的認為文化只是文化體育只是體育這個話甚至是台灣島內很多人也是拿來自欺欺人的所以我想我要再一次拜託文化部不管是在文化工作者或是後續我們如何協助"},{"start":261.469,"end":274.162,"text":"從教育部到體育署各式各樣這些工作者他們有這個意識並且有這個能力甚至遇到相關困難的時候他們知道可以回家來求救好不好好另外一個想跟您討論關於駐村藝術家的問題我們看到最近有人權館公開徵件邀請藝術家去景美人權園區還有去綠島駐村我們看到相關的"},{"start":281.89,"end":305.048,"text":"案子另外呢有非常非常多其實在台灣的公家機關裡面有非常多這個住村的案子可是我們看到相關給藝術家的福利也好你們說是福利你們說是補助你們說是支持方案我們都認為其實真的還有再改進的地方喔怎麼看包含台灣館的案例啊很多很多我就不再贅述了可是我想要說這些非常"},{"start":307.54,"end":325.26,"text":"不優的補助也好支持方案也好我們如果來看日本跟韓國我們怎麼看來我們的人均GDP已經超過日本了對嗎可是我們來看日本給予藝術家進駐給出的條件非常非常的好包含機票生活補助然後創作的諮詢公開的工作室交流"},{"start":325.62,"end":351.267,"text":"這些資料你們可以帶回去看我們辦公室很願意提供是日本的部分那我們來看韓國韓國也是你看住村的經費住宿的空間來回的機票其他的協助也就是他們對於所謂住村這件事情他們其實有更多的配套跟想像他們甚至在想的是雖然你的短期住村可能是最長對轉三個月最長十二個月而在這之前跟之後它可能都還有其他延伸的效應讓藝術跟日常的生活更可以結合"},{"start":353.968,"end":373.741,"text":"那我相信其實在文化部轄下有非常多國立的機關跟機構單位是有心想要推這個住村但我們可能過往對於住村的想像比較單薄比較單一沒有機會想得更多那我這邊就提出我個人的建議可不可以拜託文化部跟轄下各個管所召開藝術家住村諮詢會議同時我們把地方政府拉進來文化藝術工作者來共同討論藝術家住村到底實際上我們還可以怎麼樣"},{"start":382.607,"end":399.035,"text":"讓這些方案變得更好我想聽聽看市長您的意見謝謝委員的提問關於藝術村的部分在文化部來講有兩種方式一種是我們支持我們的藝術家到國外去住村另外一個是我們自己文化部或者是我們的所屬機關辦理"},{"start":400.876,"end":418.554,"text":"住村的邀集然後又是補助縣市政府來經營他們縣市政府層級的一個藝術村甚至有民間的藝術村這個文化部也會給予支持那只是說今天委員提到的是一個住村的條件到底要怎麼樣訂定會比較好那因為當然如果說用"},{"start":419.195,"end":435.8,"text":"用現在現有的狀況去做解釋的話是我們文化部所屬機關在做這個住村的目的上並不是在做一種老物採購而是一個給予一個資源有空間的資源沒錯我知道次長會講這個但是時間有限可是怎麼樣提高這個補助我們來想一想我舉一個例子給您做參考"},{"start":440.888,"end":451.337,"text":"那個部長上任之後做了一個很棒的鼓勵就是給繪本創作者一個月五萬塊我不確定你們在部內是不是用勞務採購還是用所謂創作補助這件事情我不確定但我的意思是說其實部長當時開出這個非常好的條件連很多年輕創作者跟我們說部長真的是有想到給年輕創作者的支持"},{"start":462.406,"end":474.958,"text":"那我想藝術家住村這件事情不管是中央政府還是地方政府他一定有機會讓相關的支持變得更好好不好我就說我們來研議我們再努力來籌村讓他們的住村條件可以更好開會討論 謝謝謝謝次長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員 謝謝好 我們次長請回我們接下來請林月琴委員"},{"start":497.575,"end":498.843,"text":"主席麻煩我們的次長臨機"}]}},{"id":"162251","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162251","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5649f12011b628677029f0f8eeb1de8c89c47c2ef1f362baa4a452ba7b18f0a76fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:04:34 - 09:08:04","影片長度":"00:03:30","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:04:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:08:04+08:00","duration":210,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.49471875,"end":4.7897187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.07034375,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.79159375,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.249718750000003,"end":37.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.06721875,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.657218750000006,"end":43.416593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.78784375,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.17534375,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.02284375,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.06596875000001,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.96846875,"end":96.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.48409375,"end":101.29784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.43284375,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.01409375,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.49846875,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.19284375000001,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.14909375000002,"end":145.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.69159375,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.11471875,"end":208.15034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.963,"end":26.514,"text":"謝謝主席 本會委員喔公務員在職場當中必須要得到安全衛生最基本的防護這是任何一個民主法治國家當中都應該要給公務員基本的保障非常不幸的我國有關於公務員保障的安慰辦法從2014年到目前為止歷經了11年的時間當中從來沒有做修訂"},{"start":31.271,"end":50.172,"text":"第一次到立法院服務的時候我曾在2018年針對這件事情提出質詢那個時候得到要盡速修訂的承諾沒想到等我2024年回到立法院來原地踏步 一事無成 毫無進展"},{"start":52.059,"end":71.77,"text":"台灣民眾黨立法院黨團從過去這一年不斷的催促我們的考試院提出相關的辦法以及母法公務人員保障法的修訂為什麼公務人員保障法的修訂很重要因為沒有母法的授權執法的安慰辦法根本無從定法則"},{"start":73.137,"end":96.21,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子從去年台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們針對公務員保障法必須要有授權處罰的規定我們率先提出了提案而且在考試院正副院長以及考試委員的尋答過程當中要求新任的考試院院長具體明確的提出承諾"},{"start":97.523,"end":124.25,"text":"而這件事情跟去年所不幸發生的在勞動部職場霸凌事件不幸往生的工程師另外一個緊密連結的是有關於職場霸凌的處理台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們本來希望的立法形式是通過職場霸凌的專法也就是公司部門一律的納管"},{"start":125.233,"end":145.492,"text":"那只不過說目前我們的行政單位似乎是希望針對有關於私部門交由勞動部處理的霸凌法針對公部門放在公務人員保障法當中對立法形式的不同我們沒有太強烈的堅持最重要的事情是"},{"start":146.758,"end":164.375,"text":"重塑趕快提供我們所有在公部門服務的同仁一個安全衛生的環境以及有法律強制力作為保障的一個機制那因此在今天的整個公務員保障法的審議過程當中"},{"start":166.375,"end":185.734,"text":"對於公司部門要分流這樣子的處理方式我們不會堅持一定要用一部專法予以涵蓋那但是對於今天考試院所提出來的版本除了我們本來就已經提出來的條文之外針對考試院的版本我們認為有所不足"},{"start":186.374,"end":207.485,"text":"那我也感謝我們的召委吳宗憲召委那今天在委員會審議的時候我跟吳宗憲召委會共同提出一版修正動議那希望能夠對於目前公務人員保障法的規範模式能夠更完整的更有實效性的來加以保障敬請各位委員支持 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564b1893af10139b0129f0f8eeb1de8c89c47c2ef1f362baa4af7f6ec901b7cd90e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:01:32 - 09:04:24","影片長度":"00:02:52","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:01:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:04:24+08:00","duration":172,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.42909375,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.98659375,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.44159375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.83971875,"end":171.97034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.854,"end":5.948,"text":"我們補充介紹道場委員黃國昌委員"},{"start":17.732,"end":45.521,"text":"本席今天要針對公務人員職場霸凌這個嚴肅的議題來說明目前制度上的一些問題跟修法的必要性行政院隨之108年起即訂定了相關的指導原則並於112年進一步要求上級機關處理首長涉案事件但面對首長涉案該制度能難自愛難行現行複審再申訴跟行政訴訟程序複雜"},{"start":47.262,"end":74.927,"text":"基層人員難以有效運用那實際救濟成效有限所以113年北基已花分屬無姓同仁不姓親生經調查確定跟職場霸凌跟管理不當有因果關係凸顯制度防線失守本席認為若制度明確程序友善或能挽回一條生命所以目前的安全與衛生防護的法律規範事實上是模糊的"},{"start":75.327,"end":93.177,"text":"無法有效涵蓋職場霸凌等非肢體的傷害多數案件處在不是明顯犯罪卻構成長期傷害的灰色地帶常被誤認為單純的管理問題而未妥善處理因此本席提出修法建議希望透過以下幾點"},{"start":94.497,"end":114.863,"text":"來建立一個能夠保護工人員的制度第一 明確把職場霸凌管理不當導致的身心傷害納入安全與衛生防護的範圍並授權考試院跟行政院共同訂定相關的辦法包括預防 申訴 調查 處理 輔導等措施讓制度更完善"},{"start":115.823,"end":138.677,"text":"第二 各機關要建立內部跟外部的申訴跟通報制度當加害人士 人事主管 單位主管或機關首長申訴可以往上提或由外部第三方來處理 避免利益衝突第三 要求各機關成立防治審議會負責調查處理這類事件 必要時也可以移送司法機關"},{"start":140.078,"end":163.759,"text":"確保處理有力量第四 明定申訴期限避免因時間拖延讓受害者失去救濟的機會所以本席認為保障公務人員的身心健康是國家的最基本責任那公務員每天面對到龐大業務跟壓力不該再承受不合理的職場對待這不是制度的問題更是職場文化跟人權保障的四金石所以"},{"start":164.119,"end":169.516,"text":"敬請各位支持本案修法讓我們一起建立一個安全尊重公平的公務環境以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16734","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d1c393f606ce94321b761654f0ebe352dfdab1a38f0d348c0b58f0b1e1a5a291d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-05T08:31:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T13:19:00+08:00","duration":17265,"影片長度":"04:47:45","委員發言時間":"08:31:15 - 13:19:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1959.1847187500002,"end":1969.2928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1970.2715937500002,"end":2005.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2006.1140937500002,"end":2014.4672187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2015.5640937500002,"end":2029.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2030.26221875,"end":2054.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2056.51971875,"end":2057.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2057.2115937500002,"end":2084.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2087.92409375,"end":2092.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2094.7584687500002,"end":2098.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2099.7197187500005,"end":2105.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2112.0215937500006,"end":2129.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2130.55034375,"end":2137.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2138.2284687500005,"end":2146.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2146.58159375,"end":2150.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2151.10409375,"end":2152.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2152.70721875,"end":2189.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2189.7478437500004,"end":2207.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2208.27659375,"end":2215.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2216.2247187500006,"end":2240.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2241.1659687500005,"end":2296.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2298.9122187500006,"end":2310.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2311.23096875,"end":2313.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2313.6609687500004,"end":2322.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2322.55409375,"end":2324.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2324.3934687500005,"end":2330.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2331.05909375,"end":2340.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2341.28534375,"end":2342.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2342.56784375,"end":2362.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2363.2565937500003,"end":2374.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2374.9678437500006,"end":2386.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2386.84784375,"end":2390.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2391.0497187500005,"end":2399.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2399.6053437500004,"end":2402.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2402.89596875,"end":2408.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2408.85284375,"end":2413.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2413.7128437500005,"end":2419.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2419.8047187500006,"end":2438.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2439.3122187500003,"end":2458.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2459.00534375,"end":2470.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2470.9022187500004,"end":2472.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2472.4715937500005,"end":2516.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2517.2578437500006,"end":2522.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2522.8434687500003,"end":2525.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2525.6278437500005,"end":2530.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2530.8590937500003,"end":2534.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2535.3984687500006,"end":2540.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2540.12346875,"end":2587.3903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2588.16659375,"end":2597.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2597.92034375,"end":2598.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2598.9665937500004,"end":2608.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2609.2772187500004,"end":2650.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2650.3172187500004,"end":2657.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2657.70846875,"end":2658.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2658.92346875,"end":2671.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2672.2547187500004,"end":2676.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2676.8278437500003,"end":2681.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2681.6540937500004,"end":2693.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2699.2547187500004,"end":2744.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2749.55909375,"end":2752.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2757.1022187500002,"end":2758.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2759.0597187500007,"end":2760.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2760.9665937500004,"end":2767.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2768.2734687500006,"end":2774.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2774.97284375,"end":2817.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2819.15159375,"end":2824.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2824.9734687500004,"end":2864.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2865.1697187500004,"end":2871.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2872.7634687500004,"end":2873.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2873.7422187500006,"end":2875.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2877.55596875,"end":2879.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2878.53471875,"end":2878.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2878.6190937500005,"end":2878.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2878.82159375,"end":2879.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2879.4459687500002,"end":2880.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2880.9815937500007,"end":2881.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2881.5553437500002,"end":2881.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2881.5722187500005,"end":2900.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2901.3834687500002,"end":2906.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2907.7959687500006,"end":2908.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2908.7409687500003,"end":2911.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2912.2340937500003,"end":2933.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2935.04909375,"end":2935.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2936.3484687500004,"end":2937.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2937.4453437500006,"end":2937.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2938.12034375,"end":2939.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2939.45346875,"end":2940.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2941.74846875,"end":2960.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2961.20534375,"end":2966.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2966.3522187500002,"end":3006.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2967.01034375,"end":2967.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2967.4490937500004,"end":2967.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2967.5165937500005,"end":2967.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2967.66846875,"end":2967.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3006.7340937500003,"end":3031.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3031.3884687500004,"end":3031.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3032.09721875,"end":3054.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3054.7265937500006,"end":3079.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3081.1697187500004,"end":3082.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3082.51971875,"end":3141.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3082.58721875,"end":3084.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3141.90284375,"end":3141.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3141.97034375,"end":3147.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3146.00346875,"end":3206.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3207.0909687500007,"end":3231.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3231.62721875,"end":3258.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3259.3865937500004,"end":3269.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3268.93784375,"end":3318.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3318.3815937500003,"end":3337.7540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3325.8740937500006,"end":3326.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3334.4297187500006,"end":3334.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3337.7540937500007,"end":3345.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3337.88909375,"end":3338.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3345.8034687500003,"end":3387.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3388.4297187500006,"end":3391.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3390.20159375,"end":3396.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3397.44096875,"end":3403.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3402.4022187500004,"end":3404.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3404.0222187500003,"end":3404.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3404.0390937500006,"end":3404.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3404.05596875,"end":3404.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3404.96721875,"end":3407.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3407.2284687500005,"end":3409.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3407.9540937500005,"end":3433.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3420.3065937500005,"end":3420.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3433.8740937500006,"end":3452.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3453.73596875,"end":3462.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3462.7809687500003,"end":3462.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3462.8990937500002,"end":3463.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3463.0340937500005,"end":3463.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3463.84409375,"end":3464.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3464.99159375,"end":3474.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3470.35784375,"end":3482.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3482.4909687500003,"end":3510.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3511.46534375,"end":3517.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3517.84409375,"end":3524.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3519.7509687500005,"end":3521.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3524.12159375,"end":3533.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3524.2228437500007,"end":3525.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3532.0865937500002,"end":3538.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3538.9715937500005,"end":3572.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3573.10971875,"end":3573.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3573.97034375,"end":3574.0040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3574.0040937500007,"end":3574.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3575.0672187500004,"end":3577.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3578.5772187500006,"end":3580.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3591.38534375,"end":3592.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3592.9884687500007,"end":3594.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3599.9747187500006,"end":3599.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3599.99159375,"end":3600.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3600.2109687500006,"end":3601.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3601.98284375,"end":3609.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3610.6903437500005,"end":3614.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3615.3815937500003,"end":3678.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3679.30409375,"end":3686.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3687.20159375,"end":3687.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3687.8259687500004,"end":3692.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3692.2472187500007,"end":3692.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3693.8503437500003,"end":3694.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3694.79534375,"end":3705.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3705.8990937500002,"end":3748.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3749.3522187500002,"end":3758.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3758.7684687500005,"end":3763.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3763.93221875,"end":3776.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3777.55034375,"end":3805.3097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3804.8203437500006,"end":3817.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3817.3415937500004,"end":3829.2384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3817.5778437500003,"end":3818.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3829.6434687500005,"end":3831.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3830.3859687500008,"end":3859.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3859.3434687500003,"end":3862.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3859.4953437500008,"end":3859.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3862.34721875,"end":3868.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3868.54034375,"end":3878.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3875.9990937500006,"end":3878.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3878.96909375,"end":3880.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3880.89284375,"end":3972.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3881.87159375,"end":3882.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3909.2428437500002,"end":3909.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3973.0134687500004,"end":3973.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3974.2284687500005,"end":3982.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3982.9528437500003,"end":3986.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3987.88034375,"end":3992.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3993.8878437500007,"end":4005.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4005.71721875,"end":4010.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4011.08346875,"end":4027.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4026.7772187500004,"end":4028.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4029.0553437500002,"end":4071.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4073.70659375,"end":4074.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4074.01034375,"end":4075.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4075.2422187500006,"end":4075.3097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4075.6472187500003,"end":4076.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4076.3728437500004,"end":4079.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4080.32159375,"end":4083.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4083.52784375,"end":4132.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4133.25846875,"end":4157.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4149.644093749999,"end":4149.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4149.67784375,"end":4155.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4156.47846875,"end":4157.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4157.8622187500005,"end":4167.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4166.991593750001,"end":4167.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4167.919718749999,"end":4167.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4167.970343749999,"end":4174.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4172.712218750001,"end":4190.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4175.26034375,"end":4176.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4179.95159375,"end":4180.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4190.49846875,"end":4190.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4190.63346875,"end":4210.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4212.48659375,"end":4230.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4231.0322187500005,"end":4238.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4238.03534375,"end":4280.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4280.03721875,"end":4284.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4286.669093750001,"end":4289.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4303.51034375,"end":4306.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4306.817843750001,"end":4307.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4314.20909375,"end":4433.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4433.903468750001,"end":4441.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4441.0584687499995,"end":4461.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4442.54346875,"end":4444.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4444.720343749999,"end":4444.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4461.81471875,"end":4468.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4468.09221875,"end":4489.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4489.69221875,"end":4577.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4577.49284375,"end":4594.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4594.823468750001,"end":4622.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4620.7772187499995,"end":4622.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4622.65034375,"end":4623.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4622.667218750001,"end":4650.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4638.02346875,"end":4639.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4639.37346875,"end":4641.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4651.23659375,"end":4661.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4661.44596875,"end":4671.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4661.479718750001,"end":4662.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4668.80346875,"end":4669.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4670.22096875,"end":4697.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4698.14909375,"end":4703.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4703.802218750001,"end":4703.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4703.852843750001,"end":4703.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4703.86971875,"end":4703.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4703.8865937499995,"end":4754.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4704.42659375,"end":4705.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4713.33659375,"end":4714.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4714.38284375,"end":4714.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4755.321593750001,"end":4768.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4767.319718750001,"end":4769.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4769.07471875,"end":4772.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4771.065968750001,"end":4772.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4772.9559687500005,"end":4799.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4773.86721875,"end":4775.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4798.302218750001,"end":4803.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4799.854718750001,"end":4799.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4805.474093750001,"end":4805.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4805.49096875,"end":4805.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4805.5584687499995,"end":4805.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4805.760968750001,"end":4821.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4812.038468750001,"end":4812.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4815.53159375,"end":4816.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4819.109093749999,"end":4820.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4821.032843749999,"end":4821.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4822.14659375,"end":4822.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4822.163468750001,"end":4823.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4823.007218750001,"end":4823.142218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4823.17596875,"end":4823.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4823.749718749999,"end":4823.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4823.91846875,"end":4827.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4825.116593750001,"end":4853.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4856.08221875,"end":4863.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4862.46096875,"end":4936.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4937.706593750001,"end":4940.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4940.96346875,"end":4999.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5000.279093749999,"end":5006.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5003.434718750001,"end":5015.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5017.05284375,"end":5018.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5018.419718749999,"end":5025.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5022.604718750001,"end":5063.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5025.929093750001,"end":5026.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5027.02596875,"end":5027.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5063.25659375,"end":5063.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5063.67846875,"end":5086.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5072.234093749999,"end":5072.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5086.999718749999,"end":5093.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5093.378468750001,"end":5102.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5099.622218750001,"end":5099.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5101.444718750001,"end":5130.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5102.6259687500005,"end":5103.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5130.975968750001,"end":5134.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5134.28346875,"end":5168.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5167.79721875,"end":5176.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5176.0322187500005,"end":5176.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5176.50471875,"end":5176.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5178.00659375,"end":5181.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5185.583468750001,"end":5188.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5195.607218749999,"end":5197.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5198.25659375,"end":5199.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5204.567843750001,"end":5224.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5224.64909375,"end":5326.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5261.95971875,"end":5262.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5326.79346875,"end":5353.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5353.354718750001,"end":5356.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5356.679093750001,"end":5358.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5359.59846875,"end":5360.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5360.03721875,"end":5373.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5372.27159375,"end":5373.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5373.90846875,"end":5376.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5376.01784375,"end":5376.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5376.8447187500005,"end":5376.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5377.401593750001,"end":5382.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5383.79721875,"end":5385.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5385.99096875,"end":5464.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5464.729718750001,"end":5467.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5467.767218749999,"end":5472.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5473.251593749999,"end":5474.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5475.44534375,"end":5482.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5482.920968750001,"end":5490.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5491.577843749999,"end":5511.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5512.0809687500005,"end":5555.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5555.68596875,"end":5559.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5559.9384687500005,"end":5576.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5574.75471875,"end":5576.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5576.762843750001,"end":5576.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5576.96534375,"end":5682.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5610.884093750001,"end":5610.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5610.90096875,"end":5612.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5682.467843750001,"end":5685.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5686.5009687500005,"end":5692.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5693.655968749999,"end":5702.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5703.274718750001,"end":5703.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5703.29159375,"end":5703.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5703.7303437499995,"end":5703.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5703.91596875,"end":5703.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5703.932843750001,"end":5705.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5705.73846875,"end":5705.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5705.95784375,"end":5706.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5706.02534375,"end":5706.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5706.16034375,"end":5706.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5706.19409375,"end":5706.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5706.24471875,"end":5706.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5706.2615937499995,"end":5706.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5706.86909375,"end":5706.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5706.885968750001,"end":5718.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5718.597218750001,"end":5734.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5734.88159375,"end":5742.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5742.374093750001,"end":5758.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5745.29346875,"end":5747.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5748.24659375,"end":5748.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5754.11909375,"end":5754.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5754.135968750001,"end":5754.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5758.37159375,"end":5773.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5774.08221875,"end":5775.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5775.837218750001,"end":5783.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5784.10596875,"end":5785.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5785.540343750001,"end":5785.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5785.55721875,"end":5785.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5785.5740937499995,"end":5785.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5785.827218750001,"end":5786.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5786.02971875,"end":5786.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5786.82284375,"end":5786.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5786.92409375,"end":5786.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5789.8603437500005,"end":5795.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5795.96909375,"end":5803.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5796.07034375,"end":5796.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5803.107218749999,"end":5803.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5806.00971875,"end":5806.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5806.026593750001,"end":5807.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5809.401593750001,"end":5810.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5811.460343750001,"end":5813.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5822.88471875,"end":5822.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5822.901593750001,"end":5824.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5825.2978437500005,"end":5826.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5826.47909375,"end":5826.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5832.267218750001,"end":5832.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5832.30096875,"end":5835.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5836.31721875,"end":5877.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5878.18409375,"end":5888.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5888.54534375,"end":5889.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5889.67596875,"end":5892.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5893.08471875,"end":5901.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5901.06659375,"end":5915.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5917.14846875,"end":5933.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5933.44971875,"end":5945.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5944.33409375,"end":5946.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5946.57846875,"end":5947.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5946.7303437499995,"end":6001.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6002.4853437500005,"end":6033.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6033.67034375,"end":6159.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6160.536593750001,"end":6161.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6160.65471875,"end":6160.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6162.05534375,"end":6194.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6193.341593749999,"end":6246.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6246.58221875,"end":6255.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6254.749718749999,"end":6261.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6261.465968750001,"end":6286.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6288.58409375,"end":6288.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6288.651593750001,"end":6288.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6288.702218750001,"end":6288.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6288.972218750001,"end":6298.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6299.232218749999,"end":6299.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6300.497843749999,"end":6300.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6301.47659375,"end":6303.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6303.839093750001,"end":6307.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6308.057843750001,"end":6360.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6360.505343750001,"end":6384.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6385.00784375,"end":6385.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6385.04159375,"end":6393.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6396.06096875,"end":6398.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6399.01409375,"end":6399.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6399.030968749999,"end":6420.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6399.0478437500005,"end":6401.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6402.33846875,"end":6403.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6421.170968750001,"end":6421.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6421.255343750001,"end":6421.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6421.440968750001,"end":6421.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6421.89659375,"end":6421.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6421.93034375,"end":6422.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6422.03159375,"end":6422.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6422.11596875,"end":6422.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6422.149718750001,"end":6423.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6423.0272187499995,"end":6425.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6424.69784375,"end":6425.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6425.0184687500005,"end":6425.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6425.87909375,"end":6425.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6425.895968750001,"end":6427.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6425.96346875,"end":6426.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6427.93784375,"end":6429.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6429.6590937500005,"end":6430.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6431.21159375,"end":6436.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6435.24471875,"end":6446.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6436.61159375,"end":6437.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6440.054093750001,"end":6441.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6446.82096875,"end":6446.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6446.83784375,"end":6478.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6479.423468750001,"end":6533.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6488.02971875,"end":6489.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6534.216593749999,"end":6536.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6534.233468750001,"end":6534.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6536.03909375,"end":6536.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6536.292218750001,"end":6536.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6536.342843750001,"end":6538.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6536.3934687500005,"end":6536.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6536.54534375,"end":6536.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6539.54909375,"end":6542.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6543.885968750001,"end":6546.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6552.05346875,"end":6556.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6561.4022187499995,"end":6635.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6638.16659375,"end":6638.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6638.72346875,"end":6640.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6640.64721875,"end":6646.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6646.97534375,"end":6656.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6656.96534375,"end":6710.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6710.30721875,"end":6734.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6734.87721875,"end":6789.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6790.0584687499995,"end":6793.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6793.821593750001,"end":6805.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6806.41034375,"end":6837.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6839.434718750001,"end":6839.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6839.654093749999,"end":6869.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6859.78596875,"end":6859.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6859.80284375,"end":6859.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6859.819718750001,"end":6860.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6860.899718750001,"end":6860.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6862.09784375,"end":6862.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6864.1903437500005,"end":6865.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6865.0340937500005,"end":6865.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6869.97846875,"end":6876.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6876.57659375,"end":6878.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6879.85034375,"end":6881.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6881.74034375,"end":6904.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6904.0322187500005,"end":6913.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6904.065968750001,"end":6905.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6914.27534375,"end":6936.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6936.0272187499995,"end":6937.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6938.06909375,"end":6938.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6938.08596875,"end":6942.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6938.102843750001,"end":6939.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6943.064093750001,"end":6950.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6949.257218750001,"end":6974.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6965.794718749999,"end":6965.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6965.82846875,"end":6965.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6965.92971875,"end":6966.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6966.2840937500005,"end":6967.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6967.448468750001,"end":6967.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6967.482218749999,"end":6968.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6975.835343750001,"end":6983.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6984.66096875,"end":6989.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6985.825343750001,"end":6986.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6989.97659375,"end":7056.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7057.45971875,"end":7057.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7057.47659375,"end":7060.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7061.999093750001,"end":7070.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7070.40284375,"end":7077.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7076.376593750001,"end":7077.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7077.96284375,"end":7087.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7086.2822187500005,"end":7101.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7101.975968750001,"end":7103.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7104.220343750001,"end":7104.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7104.3553437499995,"end":7104.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7104.827843750001,"end":7105.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7105.09784375,"end":7110.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7110.514718750001,"end":7110.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7110.81846875,"end":7122.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7123.00221875,"end":7128.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7128.62159375,"end":7129.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7129.026593750001,"end":7130.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7130.12346875,"end":7130.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7130.9334687499995,"end":7131.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7131.81096875,"end":7137.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7137.075968749999,"end":7186.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7137.092843750001,"end":7139.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7186.36784375,"end":7190.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7190.87346875,"end":7192.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7192.729718750001,"end":7193.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7192.88159375,"end":7193.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7193.91096875,"end":7194.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7194.552218750001,"end":7194.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7194.872843749999,"end":7199.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7200.72846875,"end":7202.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7214.279093749999,"end":7216.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7216.33784375,"end":7216.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7216.4559687500005,"end":7216.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7216.962218750001,"end":7217.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7222.7840937500005,"end":7236.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7237.00971875,"end":7278.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7279.04534375,"end":7300.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7300.89846875,"end":7309.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7309.99409375,"end":7336.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7337.804093750001,"end":7346.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7347.11909375,"end":7358.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7356.045968750001,"end":7356.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7357.9022187499995,"end":7375.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7358.577218750001,"end":7358.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7376.515343750001,"end":7379.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7379.856593750001,"end":7380.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7381.08846875,"end":7385.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7384.83471875,"end":7397.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7386.94409375,"end":7387.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7398.25034375,"end":7398.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7399.56659375,"end":7417.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7417.639718750001,"end":7424.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7424.87909375,"end":7427.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7427.44409375,"end":7435.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7435.5947187500005,"end":7436.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7436.809718750001,"end":7437.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7439.40846875,"end":7464.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7450.124093750001,"end":7450.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7450.14096875,"end":7454.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7454.35971875,"end":7454.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7454.528468750001,"end":7454.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7454.663468750001,"end":7454.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7454.96721875,"end":7455.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7455.0009687500005,"end":7455.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7468.484093750001,"end":7469.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7469.12534375,"end":7469.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7469.243468750001,"end":7469.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7469.31096875,"end":7469.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7469.96909375,"end":7470.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7470.036593750001,"end":7471.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7470.10409375,"end":7485.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7486.540343750001,"end":7487.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7487.63721875,"end":7490.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7492.260968750001,"end":7497.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7499.2978437500005,"end":7499.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7500.39471875,"end":7506.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7506.8915937500005,"end":7511.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7511.81909375,"end":7515.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7511.903468750001,"end":7513.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7513.489718750001,"end":7526.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7517.235968750001,"end":7518.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7526.73659375,"end":7531.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7532.72721875,"end":7534.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7536.608468750001,"end":7537.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7540.70909375,"end":7542.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7542.936593750001,"end":7569.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7570.4090937500005,"end":7570.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7570.729718750001,"end":7570.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7570.93221875,"end":7572.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7572.0965937500005,"end":7573.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7573.868468750001,"end":7590.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7591.51971875,"end":7607.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7600.109093750001,"end":7600.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7607.2303437499995,"end":7610.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7610.841593749999,"end":7625.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7625.97846875,"end":7626.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7626.029093749999,"end":7626.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7626.231593750001,"end":7626.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7626.417218750001,"end":7626.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7626.467843750001,"end":7635.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7636.10346875,"end":7639.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7639.05659375,"end":7656.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7656.977843750001,"end":7661.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7662.86721875,"end":7670.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7670.54534375,"end":7675.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7676.468468750001,"end":7714.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7715.9559687500005,"end":7744.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7745.50409375,"end":7745.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7745.841593749999,"end":7812.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7800.499718750001,"end":7801.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7813.22346875,"end":7816.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7814.7928437499995,"end":7815.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7815.90659375,"end":7873.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7877.9559687500005,"end":7886.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7894.61159375,"end":7896.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7897.83471875,"end":7900.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7901.715968750001,"end":7902.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7906.7615937499995,"end":7906.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7906.997843749999,"end":7907.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7907.03159375,"end":7908.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7909.19159375,"end":8019.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8020.296593750001,"end":8084.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8084.7928437499995,"end":8084.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8085.366593750001,"end":8104.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8093.280968750001,"end":8093.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8096.95971875,"end":8097.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8097.80346875,"end":8098.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8104.31721875,"end":8106.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8107.13534375,"end":8112.872843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8113.27784375,"end":8125.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8125.79909375,"end":8128.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8128.6678437499995,"end":8129.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8129.03909375,"end":8143.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8137.05471875,"end":8137.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8143.534718750001,"end":8168.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8149.677218750001,"end":8150.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8152.69784375,"end":8153.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8167.497218750001,"end":8167.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8169.01596875,"end":8179.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8179.51221875,"end":8193.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8181.554093750001,"end":8181.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8181.604718750001,"end":8181.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8181.72284375,"end":8181.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8181.77346875,"end":8181.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8181.80721875,"end":8181.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8181.874718750001,"end":8181.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8192.759093749999,"end":8192.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8193.484718750002,"end":8194.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8194.851593750001,"end":8196.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8197.399718749999,"end":8199.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8200.31909375,"end":8230.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8204.48721875,"end":8204.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8216.586593750002,"end":8216.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8216.637218750002,"end":8216.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8216.97471875,"end":8217.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8230.69409375,"end":8237.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8238.13596875,"end":8252.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8242.43909375,"end":8242.962218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8242.962218749999,"end":8243.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8244.46409375,"end":8244.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8244.531593750002,"end":8244.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8244.86909375,"end":8244.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8253.593468750001,"end":8337.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8338.727843750003,"end":8339.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8340.465968750003,"end":8340.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8340.972218750001,"end":8342.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8343.68909375,"end":8366.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8361.72846875,"end":8362.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8366.875343750002,"end":8368.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8368.984718750002,"end":8380.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8370.06471875,"end":8370.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8372.32596875,"end":8372.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8380.274093750002,"end":8434.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8382.282218750002,"end":8382.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8422.883468750002,"end":8423.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8424.60471875,"end":8425.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8434.83096875,"end":8443.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8436.77159375,"end":8436.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8436.83909375,"end":8436.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8436.97409375,"end":8437.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8437.024718750003,"end":8437.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8437.649093750002,"end":8437.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8444.196593750003,"end":8483.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8446.356593750003,"end":8446.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8449.360343750002,"end":8449.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8461.577843750001,"end":8462.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8468.41221875,"end":8468.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8480.528468750003,"end":8481.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8483.86971875,"end":8586.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8587.85346875,"end":8599.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8599.919093750003,"end":8601.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8601.89346875,"end":8601.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8604.03659375,"end":8604.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8611.664093750001,"end":8613.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8621.738468750002,"end":8624.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8631.660968750002,"end":8784.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8632.082843750002,"end":8632.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8784.801593750002,"end":8895.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8896.007843750001,"end":8897.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8896.379093750002,"end":8896.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8896.969718750002,"end":8920.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8918.586593750002,"end":9016.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9017.558468750001,"end":9019.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9019.90409375,"end":9020.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9020.71409375,"end":9020.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9020.730968750002,"end":9020.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9020.76471875,"end":9022.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9020.832218750002,"end":9049.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9025.320968750002,"end":9025.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9036.120968750001,"end":9036.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9037.774718750003,"end":9038.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9046.465343750002,"end":9049.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9049.70534375,"end":9051.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9049.722218750001,"end":9052.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9052.43909375,"end":9057.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9058.969718750002,"end":9059.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9059.77971875,"end":9062.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9062.53034375,"end":9075.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9066.32721875,"end":9066.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9076.38471875,"end":9085.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9084.87284375,"end":9110.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9110.60721875,"end":9112.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9112.024718750003,"end":9118.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9116.817218750002,"end":9117.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9118.25159375,"end":9198.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9198.087218750003,"end":9198.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9199.21784375,"end":9208.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9208.02659375,"end":9216.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9216.02534375,"end":9223.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9220.851593750001,"end":9235.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9236.69721875,"end":9241.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9237.60846875,"end":9238.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9240.03846875,"end":9240.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9242.33346875,"end":9246.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9573.74159375,"end":9580.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9582.21284375,"end":9582.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9582.550343750001,"end":9585.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9585.33471875,"end":9586.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9590.937218750001,"end":9591.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9591.696593750003,"end":9592.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9593.08034375,"end":9621.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9621.46409375,"end":9622.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9622.425968750002,"end":9630.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9630.914093750001,"end":9715.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9716.774093750002,"end":9826.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9826.562843750002,"end":9853.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9853.259093750003,"end":9912.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9913.80659375,"end":9962.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9963.33471875,"end":9974.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9974.30346875,"end":10023.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10024.894718750002,"end":10040.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10040.47034375,"end":10058.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10058.83034375,"end":10066.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10066.96409375,"end":10105.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10105.995968750001,"end":10109.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10109.387843750003,"end":10110.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10114.129718750002,"end":10117.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10119.27659375,"end":10125.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10126.80284375,"end":10155.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10156.199093750001,"end":10158.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10158.831593750001,"end":10227.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10228.407218750002,"end":10229.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10229.90909375,"end":10230.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10230.516593750002,"end":10232.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10233.58784375,"end":10233.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10233.97596875,"end":10234.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10234.27971875,"end":10235.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10235.055968750003,"end":10235.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10236.16971875,"end":10236.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10236.945968750002,"end":10294.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10296.14346875,"end":10296.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10296.97034375,"end":10297.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10297.61159375,"end":10298.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10299.41721875,"end":10315.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10315.02659375,"end":10331.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10340.102843750003,"end":10341.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10342.53284375,"end":10344.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10344.794093750003,"end":10346.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10351.898468750001,"end":10351.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10351.915343750003,"end":10351.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10351.965968750003,"end":10352.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10352.35409375,"end":10353.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10353.585968750001,"end":10430.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10430.99159375,"end":10432.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10433.961593750002,"end":10450.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10439.42909375,"end":10439.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10439.445968750002,"end":10439.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10439.648468750001,"end":10439.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10442.618468750003,"end":10443.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10450.195343750001,"end":10475.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10475.659718750001,"end":10496.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10498.761593750001,"end":10502.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10502.777843750002,"end":10527.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10506.473468750002,"end":10507.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10525.47471875,"end":10530.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10530.28409375,"end":10530.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10530.38534375,"end":10530.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10530.503468750001,"end":10530.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10530.672218750002,"end":10547.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10548.340343750002,"end":10549.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10550.078468750002,"end":10551.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10551.68159375,"end":10553.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10553.605343750001,"end":10575.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10575.69471875,"end":10578.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10577.196593750003,"end":10580.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10580.21721875,"end":10596.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10597.24409375,"end":10610.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10597.68284375,"end":10598.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10610.777843750002,"end":10640.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10641.304718750001,"end":10642.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10644.274718750003,"end":10656.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10646.856593750003,"end":10647.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10654.63596875,"end":10727.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10727.687843750002,"end":10761.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10731.164093750001,"end":10731.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10761.859718750002,"end":10764.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10764.812843750002,"end":10771.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10771.00596875,"end":10771.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10771.42784375,"end":10771.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10771.512218750002,"end":10774.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10775.17409375,"end":10776.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10776.878468750001,"end":10778.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10785.04596875,"end":10788.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10793.871593750002,"end":10795.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10793.90534375,"end":10794.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10794.42846875,"end":10794.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10796.04846875,"end":10799.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10800.43596875,"end":10802.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10802.258468750002,"end":10802.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10802.86596875,"end":10814.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10816.349093750003,"end":10830.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10816.46721875,"end":10816.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10822.84596875,"end":10822.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10822.862843750001,"end":10823.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10823.099093750003,"end":10823.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10829.12346875,"end":10829.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10830.574718750002,"end":10831.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10830.60846875,"end":10831.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10831.249718750001,"end":10831.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10831.519718750002,"end":10837.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10832.27909375,"end":10832.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10837.78034375,"end":10838.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10838.117843750002,"end":10859.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10847.73659375,"end":10847.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10847.753468750001,"end":10848.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10859.59971875,"end":10863.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10863.34596875,"end":10867.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10867.530968750001,"end":10881.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10881.368468750003,"end":10881.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10881.419093750003,"end":10881.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10881.503468750001,"end":10892.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10893.36659375,"end":10894.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10895.796593750001,"end":10897.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10897.04534375,"end":10897.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10897.062218750001,"end":10897.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10897.73721875,"end":10897.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10898.547218750002,"end":10909.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10900.825343750003,"end":10901.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10901.26409375,"end":10901.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10903.15409375,"end":10903.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10907.727218750002,"end":10909.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10909.22909375,"end":10910.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10910.460968750001,"end":10910.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10910.832218750002,"end":10922.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10923.336593750002,"end":10924.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10927.94346875,"end":10927.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10927.977218750002,"end":10930.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10928.90534375,"end":10932.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10931.89221875,"end":10941.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10935.58784375,"end":10935.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10941.426593750002,"end":10944.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10945.004093750002,"end":10945.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10946.50596875,"end":10978.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10978.29846875,"end":10987.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10987.74846875,"end":11012.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11012.89221875,"end":11014.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11016.317843750003,"end":11021.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11022.207218750002,"end":11026.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11026.61159375,"end":11030.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11031.117218750001,"end":11047.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11047.77284375,"end":11051.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11052.14346875,"end":11053.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11053.61159375,"end":11056.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11057.50971875,"end":11065.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11066.36909375,"end":11073.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11073.827843750001,"end":11076.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11077.067843750003,"end":11083.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11084.813468750002,"end":11094.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11095.140968750002,"end":11101.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11101.85721875,"end":11124.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11125.347218750001,"end":11130.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11130.66284375,"end":11141.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11141.395343750002,"end":11155.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11156.24534375,"end":11160.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11161.81409375,"end":11162.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11163.164093750001,"end":11233.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11235.91221875,"end":11238.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11238.797843750002,"end":11245.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11244.94034375,"end":11247.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11248.079093750002,"end":11258.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11258.609093750001,"end":11258.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11258.64284375,"end":11258.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11258.74409375,"end":11258.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11258.91284375,"end":11259.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11259.18284375,"end":11286.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11272.497218750003,"end":11273.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11286.098468750002,"end":11292.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11292.81471875,"end":11311.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11313.368468750003,"end":11315.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11314.988468750002,"end":11316.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11316.895343750002,"end":11373.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11373.780968750001,"end":11383.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11384.83409375,"end":11395.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11396.055968750003,"end":11399.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11399.81909375,"end":11401.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11404.594718750002,"end":11450.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11420.37284375,"end":11420.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11448.85784375,"end":11449.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11450.17409375,"end":11495.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11495.027843750002,"end":11502.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11495.500343750002,"end":11495.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11497.79534375,"end":11497.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11501.355968750002,"end":11501.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11502.098468750002,"end":11502.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11502.97596875,"end":11503.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11503.02659375,"end":11504.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11503.33034375,"end":11504.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11504.039093750001,"end":11504.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11505.827843750001,"end":11511.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11518.04534375,"end":11519.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11520.05346875,"end":11521.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11526.80346875,"end":11527.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11527.208468750003,"end":11527.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11527.47846875,"end":11585.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11586.524093750002,"end":11589.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11589.56159375,"end":11643.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11643.831593750001,"end":11680.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11680.956593750001,"end":11683.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11682.542843750001,"end":11683.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11683.859093750001,"end":11683.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11683.94346875,"end":11684.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11684.567843750003,"end":11685.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11684.58471875,"end":11684.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11684.601593750001,"end":11684.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11684.972843750002,"end":11685.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11685.023468750001,"end":11685.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11685.05721875,"end":11685.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11685.141593750002,"end":11686.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11686.710968750001,"end":11686.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11686.727843750003,"end":11689.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11686.96409375,"end":11689.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11689.140968750002,"end":11689.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11689.765343750001,"end":11829.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11830.92471875,"end":11868.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11868.387218750002,"end":11894.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11883.034718750001,"end":11883.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11883.051593750002,"end":11884.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11885.380343750003,"end":11886.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11886.780968750001,"end":11888.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11893.075343750003,"end":11893.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11894.03721875,"end":11937.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11938.23284375,"end":11939.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11939.464718750001,"end":11960.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11961.06471875,"end":11966.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11966.211593750002,"end":11967.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11967.696593750003,"end":11979.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11979.036593750003,"end":12003.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11979.57659375,"end":11980.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12004.534718750001,"end":12020.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12019.958468750003,"end":12020.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12021.207218750002,"end":12030.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12030.47159375,"end":12030.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12030.505343750003,"end":12030.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12030.52221875,"end":12030.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12030.977843750003,"end":12031.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12031.028468750003,"end":12056.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12057.657218750002,"end":12062.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12063.47909375,"end":12071.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12071.258468750002,"end":12071.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12071.309093750002,"end":12071.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12071.37659375,"end":12112.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12071.410343750002,"end":12072.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12114.812843750002,"end":12118.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12119.250968750002,"end":12119.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12119.284718750001,"end":12119.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12119.672843750002,"end":12145.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12139.180343750002,"end":12139.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12146.53784375,"end":12153.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12154.40159375,"end":12157.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12158.535968750002,"end":12166.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12166.028468750003,"end":12176.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12176.727218750002,"end":12177.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12177.030968750001,"end":12178.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12179.055968750003,"end":12182.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12183.156593750002,"end":12186.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12187.206593750001,"end":12187.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12188.438468750002,"end":12188.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12188.97846875,"end":12189.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12189.51846875,"end":12189.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12192.235343750002,"end":12197.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12198.58034375,"end":12199.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12202.815968750001,"end":12206.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12206.96721875,"end":12223.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12224.90534375,"end":12248.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12248.83409375,"end":12333.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12334.17096875,"end":12337.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12337.91721875,"end":12347.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12348.177218750003,"end":12362.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12363.01034375,"end":12422.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12422.832218750002,"end":12442.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12442.930343750002,"end":12453.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12453.86534375,"end":12457.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12458.08409375,"end":12461.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12462.285968750002,"end":12494.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12495.69846875,"end":12553.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12553.84971875,"end":12555.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12556.60034375,"end":12575.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12566.50596875,"end":12567.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12570.82596875,"end":12571.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12572.20971875,"end":12572.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12572.496593750002,"end":12573.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12575.972843750002,"end":12577.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12578.33534375,"end":12617.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12617.586593750002,"end":12618.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12619.071593750003,"end":12628.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12628.62284375,"end":12648.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12649.09221875,"end":12701.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12701.759093750003,"end":12705.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12706.04534375,"end":12709.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12710.31471875,"end":12718.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12719.511593750001,"end":12721.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12721.40159375,"end":12722.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12722.44784375,"end":12754.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12754.594718750002,"end":12754.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12755.219093750002,"end":12772.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12759.15096875,"end":12761.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12762.593468750001,"end":12762.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12762.964718750001,"end":12762.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12762.981593750003,"end":12763.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12763.52159375,"end":12763.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12763.57221875,"end":12763.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12764.247218750003,"end":12764.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12764.280968750001,"end":12764.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12764.36534375,"end":12764.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12764.449718750002,"end":12764.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12772.43159375,"end":12817.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12772.566593750002,"end":12773.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12785.47596875,"end":12785.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12794.132843750001,"end":12794.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12816.829718750003,"end":12818.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12817.032218750002,"end":12817.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12819.040343750003,"end":12824.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12831.91596875,"end":12833.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12834.126593750003,"end":12835.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12839.914718750002,"end":12840.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12840.336593750002,"end":12861.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12861.734093750001,"end":12863.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12863.52284375,"end":12883.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12883.485968750003,"end":12886.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12887.265968750002,"end":12893.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12894.10034375,"end":12896.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12897.509093750003,"end":12898.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12898.21784375,"end":12900.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12900.52971875,"end":12910.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12905.980343750001,"end":12906.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12910.519718750002,"end":12910.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12910.587218750003,"end":12919.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12910.620968750001,"end":12910.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12919.56471875,"end":12933.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12925.234718750002,"end":12925.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12925.251593750003,"end":12925.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12931.664093750001,"end":12932.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12932.59221875,"end":12941.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12942.683468750001,"end":12967.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12967.55721875,"end":12970.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12970.999718750001,"end":12981.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12982.356593750003,"end":12982.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12982.84596875,"end":12992.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12992.954093750002,"end":13026.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13027.04159375,"end":13032.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13032.964718750001,"end":13041.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13041.874718750001,"end":13050.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13050.24471875,"end":13056.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13056.67409375,"end":13057.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13058.00721875,"end":13060.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13060.99409375,"end":13061.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13061.53409375,"end":13062.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13063.390343750001,"end":13080.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13080.67034375,"end":13093.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13094.01846875,"end":13096.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13096.836593750002,"end":13103.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13103.114093750002,"end":13103.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13103.24909375,"end":13105.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13104.04221875,"end":13105.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13105.24034375,"end":13106.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13106.03346875,"end":13111.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13111.19721875,"end":13138.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13139.26034375,"end":13141.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13141.774718750003,"end":13156.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13157.097218750001,"end":13158.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13158.09284375,"end":13158.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13159.375343750002,"end":13165.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13165.973468750002,"end":13167.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13168.62284375,"end":13168.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13168.977218750002,"end":13170.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13170.985343750002,"end":13173.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13175.558468750001,"end":13178.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13178.91659375,"end":13181.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13184.08034375,"end":13184.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13184.265968750002,"end":13185.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13185.548468750003,"end":13187.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13187.809718750003,"end":13201.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13196.095343750003,"end":13196.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13201.512218750002,"end":13205.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13205.190968750001,"end":13209.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13209.02159375,"end":13209.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13209.375968750002,"end":13216.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13212.91971875,"end":13212.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13212.93659375,"end":13213.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13216.581593750001,"end":13218.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13218.657218750002,"end":13218.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13218.79221875,"end":13219.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13219.382843750001,"end":13221.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13223.95596875,"end":13225.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13226.352218750002,"end":13227.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13226.48721875,"end":13226.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13226.993468750003,"end":13229.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13229.32221875,"end":13237.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13237.692218750002,"end":13238.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13238.35034375,"end":13239.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13239.91971875,"end":13240.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13240.56096875,"end":13243.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13243.125968750002,"end":13245.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13245.25221875,"end":13245.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13245.488468750002,"end":13247.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13248.222218750001,"end":13250.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13250.78721875,"end":13252.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13252.339718750001,"end":13259.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13271.52659375,"end":13274.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13275.087218750003,"end":13276.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13281.567218750002,"end":13282.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13281.837218750003,"end":13282.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13283.035343750002,"end":13286.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13286.562218750001,"end":13291.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13292.164718750002,"end":13297.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13298.172218750002,"end":13299.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13300.26471875,"end":13303.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13304.26409375,"end":13305.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13306.289093750001,"end":13311.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13312.667843750001,"end":13314.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13315.45221875,"end":13319.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13319.97471875,"end":13325.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13325.72909375,"end":13328.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13328.665343750003,"end":13332.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13333.238468750002,"end":13337.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13338.030968750001,"end":13342.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13343.312843750002,"end":13347.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13348.155968750001,"end":13353.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13353.505343750003,"end":13357.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13358.753468750001,"end":13359.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13359.816593750002,"end":13360.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13360.812218750001,"end":13362.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13363.208468750003,"end":13364.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13365.402218750001,"end":13366.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13366.718468750001,"end":13369.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13370.481593750003,"end":13371.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13373.097218750001,"end":13374.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13374.582218750002,"end":13384.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13381.703468750002,"end":13382.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13384.673468750003,"end":13386.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13388.200343750003,"end":13389.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13389.719093750002,"end":13391.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13391.254718750002,"end":13392.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13392.925343750001,"end":13394.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13395.65909375,"end":13396.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13397.86971875,"end":13399.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13400.535968750002,"end":13402.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13401.02534375,"end":13401.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13401.548468750003,"end":13402.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13402.864718750003,"end":13404.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13405.075343750003,"end":13406.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13407.25221875,"end":13407.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13408.703468750002,"end":13411.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13412.78721875,"end":13414.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13414.609718750002,"end":13415.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13416.364718750003,"end":13417.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13418.879093750002,"end":13419.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13419.503468750001,"end":13420.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13420.532843750003,"end":13421.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13421.59596875,"end":13429.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13429.020968750003,"end":13430.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13429.25721875,"end":13430.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13430.82659375,"end":13433.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13434.657218750002,"end":13435.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13435.450343750003,"end":13436.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13436.395343750002,"end":13437.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13438.133468750002,"end":13438.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13438.977218750002,"end":13439.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13441.47471875,"end":13441.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13442.082218750002,"end":13445.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13446.01409375,"end":13446.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13446.85784375,"end":13449.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13450.13159375,"end":13451.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13452.24096875,"end":13453.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13454.890343750001,"end":13455.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13455.683468750001,"end":13456.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13456.746593750002,"end":13458.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13458.67034375,"end":13461.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13462.399718750003,"end":13463.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13464.188468750002,"end":13466.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13467.394718750002,"end":13468.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13469.43659375,"end":13472.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13472.845343750003,"end":13474.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13475.69721875,"end":13481.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13481.890343750001,"end":13483.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13484.286593750003,"end":13485.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13485.737843750001,"end":13486.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13486.78409375,"end":13493.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13494.074093750001,"end":13495.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13495.59284375,"end":13495.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13496.723468750002,"end":13498.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13498.731593750003,"end":13500.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13500.75659375,"end":13501.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13501.937843750002,"end":13502.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13502.984093750001,"end":13508.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13509.312218750001,"end":13512.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13512.585968750001,"end":13516.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13515.74159375,"end":13517.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13518.05346875,"end":13521.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13521.968468750001,"end":13524.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13525.208468750003,"end":13529.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13529.66346875,"end":13536.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13537.67909375,"end":13539.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13540.649093750002,"end":13561.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13562.097218750001,"end":13562.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13563.210968750001,"end":13571.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13572.32346875,"end":13572.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13573.47096875,"end":13574.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13574.601593750001,"end":13578.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13578.820343750001,"end":13599.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13600.21784375,"end":13603.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13603.508468750002,"end":13606.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13606.59659375,"end":13614.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13615.60784375,"end":13617.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13617.88596875,"end":13620.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13621.109093750001,"end":13624.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13625.766593750002,"end":13629.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13625.969093750002,"end":13626.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13628.027843750002,"end":13639.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13631.520968750003,"end":13631.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13640.042843750001,"end":13643.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13644.88596875,"end":13645.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13646.269718750002,"end":13648.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13649.340968750003,"end":13650.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13651.551593750002,"end":13653.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13673.77596875,"end":13675.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13676.72909375,"end":13677.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13682.196593750003,"end":13682.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13682.230343750001,"end":13683.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13684.187843750002,"end":13685.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13685.875343750002,"end":13696.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13696.860968750003,"end":13697.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13698.227843750003,"end":13702.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13702.46346875,"end":13703.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13704.47159375,"end":13707.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13708.16721875,"end":13709.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13710.411593750003,"end":13712.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13714.52909375,"end":13715.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13716.65534375,"end":13717.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13718.49471875,"end":13719.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13720.840343750002,"end":13721.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13722.96659375,"end":13724.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13725.46409375,"end":13726.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13727.13471875,"end":13728.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13728.40034375,"end":13729.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13730.661593750003,"end":13731.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13732.872218750003,"end":13733.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13736.41596875,"end":13737.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13738.22159375,"end":13741.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13742.96346875,"end":13745.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13746.355343750001,"end":13747.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13747.80659375,"end":13748.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13751.940968750001,"end":13752.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13753.999718750001,"end":13755.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13755.61971875,"end":13756.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13757.425343750001,"end":13759.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13760.648468750001,"end":13761.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13762.707218750002,"end":13763.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13764.833468750003,"end":13767.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13768.90034375,"end":13769.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13771.515968750002,"end":13772.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13773.54096875,"end":13775.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13777.574093750001,"end":13779.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13780.206593750001,"end":13784.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13785.285968750002,"end":13787.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13789.15034375,"end":13790.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13791.192218750002,"end":13792.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13792.812218750001,"end":13792.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13792.96409375,"end":13808.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13809.062843750002,"end":13811.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13813.16346875,"end":13814.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13815.340343750002,"end":13820.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13821.33096875,"end":13823.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13823.929718750001,"end":13824.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13825.81971875,"end":13826.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13828.45221875,"end":13834.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13835.45534375,"end":13835.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13836.231593750003,"end":13839.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13839.84284375,"end":13841.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13842.30659375,"end":13844.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13844.41596875,"end":13846.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13849.815968750001,"end":13850.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13851.18284375,"end":13851.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13851.199718750002,"end":13852.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13852.60034375,"end":13856.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13852.617218750001,"end":13852.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13852.785968750002,"end":13852.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13852.887218750002,"end":13853.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13857.29159375,"end":13860.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13862.843468750001,"end":13865.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13866.657218750002,"end":13868.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13869.390968750002,"end":13875.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13875.465968750003,"end":13877.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13878.75659375,"end":13879.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13880.933468750001,"end":13882.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13882.148468750001,"end":13883.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13884.207218750002,"end":13886.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13886.519093750001,"end":13886.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13886.55284375,"end":13892.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13893.117218750001,"end":13893.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13893.134093750003,"end":13894.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13893.15096875,"end":13895.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13896.087218750003,"end":13896.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13897.015343750001,"end":13897.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13897.09971875,"end":13897.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13897.875968750002,"end":13897.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13897.94346875,"end":13898.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13898.500343750002,"end":13899.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13899.023468750001,"end":13906.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13899.95159375,"end":13903.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13903.090343750002,"end":13903.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13903.883468750002,"end":13903.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13904.22096875,"end":13904.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13904.27159375,"end":13904.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13907.96721875,"end":13908.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13908.97971875,"end":13911.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13912.017218750003,"end":13913.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13914.46409375,"end":13915.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13916.18534375,"end":13917.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13918.88534375,"end":13920.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13921.905968750001,"end":13922.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13922.766593750002,"end":13923.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13925.078468750002,"end":13926.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13928.11596875,"end":13931.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13932.16596875,"end":13955.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13954.289093750001,"end":13954.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13955.402843750002,"end":13958.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13959.469718750002,"end":13966.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13966.945343750001,"end":13968.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13969.172843750002,"end":13983.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13983.16221875,"end":13985.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13983.735968750003,"end":13989.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13989.96284375,"end":13990.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13991.380343750003,"end":13992.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13992.780968750001,"end":13993.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13996.61159375,"end":14004.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14004.79596875,"end":14010.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14006.38221875,"end":14006.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14012.777843750002,"end":14013.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14014.12784375,"end":14020.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14021.18159375,"end":14024.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14024.961593750002,"end":14028.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14028.505343750003,"end":14041.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14043.034718750001,"end":14043.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14044.165343750003,"end":14045.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14046.207218750002,"end":14047.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14047.624718750001,"end":14049.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14049.29534375,"end":14054.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14055.083468750003,"end":14070.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14070.878468750001,"end":14073.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14074.18596875,"end":14081.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14082.184718750003,"end":14090.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14090.976593750001,"end":14096.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14096.29221875,"end":14102.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14097.034718750001,"end":14103.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14104.020968750003,"end":14115.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14116.660343750002,"end":14122.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14121.11534375,"end":14122.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14122.718468750001,"end":14122.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14122.97159375,"end":14149.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14150.44409375,"end":14152.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14153.009093750003,"end":14155.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14155.70909375,"end":14156.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14156.97471875,"end":14165.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14166.019718750002,"end":14168.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14169.495968750001,"end":14175.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14176.262843750003,"end":14188.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14188.699718750002,"end":14188.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14188.71659375,"end":14190.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14190.910343750002,"end":14209.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14209.962218750003,"end":14214.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14214.78846875,"end":14220.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14220.407843750003,"end":14224.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14224.980968750002,"end":14232.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14233.739093750002,"end":14243.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14240.77596875,"end":14244.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14244.67409375,"end":14245.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14244.910343750002,"end":14245.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14247.441593750002,"end":14247.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14247.812843750002,"end":14249.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14249.46659375,"end":14250.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14250.411593750003,"end":14252.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14251.339718750001,"end":14260.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14253.364718750003,"end":14255.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14256.469718750002,"end":14257.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14257.97159375,"end":14259.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14259.50721875,"end":14266.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14272.382843750001,"end":14274.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14274.914093750001,"end":14276.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14279.993468750003,"end":14283.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14282.136593750001,"end":14282.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14283.942218750002,"end":14285.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14286.203468750002,"end":14286.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14286.625343750002,"end":14394.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14394.91221875,"end":14414.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14415.28034375,"end":14415.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14415.314093750003,"end":14440.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14415.33096875,"end":14416.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14440.52534375,"end":14440.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14441.453468750002,"end":14501.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14502.456593750001,"end":14502.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14502.81096875,"end":14523.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14524.140968750002,"end":14536.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14535.41346875,"end":14595.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14540.10471875,"end":14541.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14597.766593750002,"end":14676.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14676.72471875,"end":14677.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14677.011593750001,"end":14677.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14677.09596875,"end":14680.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14680.74096875,"end":14704.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14704.551593750002,"end":14707.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14707.96034375,"end":14709.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14709.411593750003,"end":14725.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14721.274718750003,"end":14730.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14725.746593750002,"end":14726.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14727.754718750002,"end":14727.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14731.112843750001,"end":14763.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14762.078468750002,"end":14765.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14764.086593750002,"end":14766.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14765.672843750002,"end":14765.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14766.972218750001,"end":14768.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14767.07346875,"end":14767.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14767.84971875,"end":14767.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14767.883468750002,"end":14767.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14769.874718750001,"end":14777.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14787.30659375,"end":14790.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14791.17096875,"end":14792.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14792.031593750002,"end":14792.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14792.048468750003,"end":14792.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14792.16659375,"end":14792.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14792.41971875,"end":14792.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14792.470343750003,"end":14792.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14792.48721875,"end":14792.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14797.769093750001,"end":14798.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14798.511593750001,"end":14816.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14817.141593750002,"end":14820.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14820.85409375,"end":14838.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14839.99034375,"end":14850.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14850.992843750002,"end":14862.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14863.345343750003,"end":14863.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14863.969718750002,"end":14938.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14939.097218750001,"end":14941.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14941.25721875,"end":14942.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14943.923468750003,"end":14943.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14943.94034375,"end":14953.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14953.64346875,"end":14986.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14953.74471875,"end":14954.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14986.988468750002,"end":15012.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15012.48659375,"end":15022.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15023.691593750002,"end":15024.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15024.484718750002,"end":15026.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15027.31971875,"end":15036.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15036.314093750003,"end":15044.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15044.02596875,"end":15046.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15046.574093750001,"end":15068.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15069.13596875,"end":15127.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15128.434718750003,"end":15159.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15159.09659375,"end":15162.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15163.230968750002,"end":15163.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15164.024093750002,"end":15183.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15173.01846875,"end":15173.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15184.61159375,"end":15184.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15184.645343750002,"end":15194.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15184.797218750002,"end":15185.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15195.782843750003,"end":15207.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15207.105968750002,"end":15207.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15207.780968750001,"end":15211.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15211.577843750001,"end":15213.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15213.805343750002,"end":15216.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15216.690968750001,"end":15239.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15239.03346875,"end":15249.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15250.37346875,"end":15292.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15293.489093750002,"end":15347.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15348.501593750003,"end":15355.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15355.99409375,"end":15359.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15356.027843750002,"end":15356.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15359.504093750002,"end":15365.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15364.060343750003,"end":15365.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15366.18659375,"end":15368.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15366.97971875,"end":15368.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15369.848468750002,"end":15375.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15384.22596875,"end":15384.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15385.930343750002,"end":15387.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15387.617843750002,"end":15388.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15389.22096875,"end":15389.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15395.009093750003,"end":15487.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15489.762218750002,"end":15541.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15541.83846875,"end":15542.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15542.83409375,"end":15548.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15549.347843750002,"end":15556.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15554.07284375,"end":15557.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15557.65034375,"end":15558.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15558.51096875,"end":15572.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15573.782843750003,"end":15580.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15580.22909375,"end":15583.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15584.684093750002,"end":15593.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15593.94846875,"end":15607.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15596.547218750002,"end":15598.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15603.145343750002,"end":15603.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15604.44471875,"end":15606.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15606.80721875,"end":15651.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15652.26846875,"end":15654.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15654.42846875,"end":15674.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15656.85846875,"end":15658.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15663.625343750002,"end":15665.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15666.24096875,"end":15668.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15673.345343750003,"end":15676.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15676.905968750001,"end":15677.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15678.610343750002,"end":15684.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15682.609718750002,"end":15684.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15685.32659375,"end":15688.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15689.562218750001,"end":15690.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15690.692843750003,"end":15690.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15690.76034375,"end":15693.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15690.794093750003,"end":15691.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15694.75971875,"end":15695.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15697.020968750003,"end":15704.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15702.015968750002,"end":15702.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15702.04971875,"end":15702.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15702.42096875,"end":15702.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15702.437843750002,"end":15702.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15704.46284375,"end":15710.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15708.360968750003,"end":15768.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15712.090343750002,"end":15713.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15770.69721875,"end":15790.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15790.609718750002,"end":15796.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15797.832218750002,"end":15809.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15808.31159375,"end":15810.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15810.77534375,"end":15813.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15814.53846875,"end":15825.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15819.685343750003,"end":15819.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15819.70221875,"end":15820.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15825.895343750002,"end":15829.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15829.30409375,"end":15838.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15829.860968750003,"end":15830.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15833.370968750001,"end":15859.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15860.35409375,"end":15862.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15862.919093750003,"end":15868.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15869.129093750002,"end":15876.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15876.030968750001,"end":15900.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15901.630343750003,"end":15902.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15903.13221875,"end":15906.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15906.456593750001,"end":15906.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15906.827843750001,"end":15921.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15921.137843750003,"end":15931.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15931.887218750002,"end":15963.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15964.439093750003,"end":15966.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15967.56096875,"end":15974.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15974.226593750001,"end":15976.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15977.01096875,"end":15987.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15987.60846875,"end":16001.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16001.26034375,"end":16013.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16014.54096875,"end":16046.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16046.856593750003,"end":16048.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16048.965968750003,"end":16078.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16078.817843750003,"end":16081.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16081.855343750001,"end":16174.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16175.055968750003,"end":16176.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16176.13596875,"end":16178.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16177.958468750003,"end":16189.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16178.49846875,"end":16183.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16184.016593750002,"end":16185.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16188.269093750001,"end":16189.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16189.534718750001,"end":16196.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16193.95596875,"end":16193.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16193.972843750002,"end":16196.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16197.769718750002,"end":16199.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16201.12784375,"end":16204.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16210.577843750001,"end":16211.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16212.029093750003,"end":16213.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16218.84659375,"end":16219.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16219.36971875,"end":16220.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16221.023468750001,"end":16262.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16262.704718750003,"end":16275.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16276.086593750002,"end":16278.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16278.80346875,"end":16280.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16280.372843750003,"end":16285.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16282.566593750002,"end":16282.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16285.536593750003,"end":16296.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16292.961593750002,"end":16293.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16296.437843750002,"end":16459.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16461.10409375,"end":16463.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16463.027843750002,"end":16465.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16466.234093749998,"end":16486.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16499.57909375,"end":16501.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16501.840343750002,"end":16503.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16508.505968750003,"end":16510.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16508.57346875,"end":16508.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16508.67471875,"end":16508.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16508.843468749998,"end":16508.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16508.87721875,"end":16508.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16508.927843750003,"end":16508.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16510.395968750003,"end":16550.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16539.26909375,"end":16539.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16550.811593749997,"end":16569.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16571.51721875,"end":16573.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16574.18346875,"end":16591.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16578.14909375,"end":16578.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16589.590343750002,"end":16601.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16595.90159375,"end":16596.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16602.87096875,"end":16605.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16603.61346875,"end":16603.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16604.710343749997,"end":16610.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16610.819093750004,"end":16610.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16610.85284375,"end":16645.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16610.903468750003,"end":16612.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16632.756593750004,"end":16633.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16644.974093750003,"end":16650.272843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16650.458468750003,"end":16652.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16652.63534375,"end":16681.069718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16681.44096875,"end":16706.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16706.75346875,"end":16709.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16710.85409375,"end":16721.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16721.451593750004,"end":16738.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16738.832843750002,"end":16740.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16740.959093750003,"end":16744.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16745.46471875,"end":16750.257218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16750.864718750003,"end":16751.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16752.28221875,"end":16755.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16756.146593750003,"end":16761.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16761.91784375,"end":16763.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16764.43221875,"end":16767.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16768.482218750003,"end":16768.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16768.95471875,"end":16769.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16769.427218750003,"end":16777.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16776.109718749998,"end":16780.952843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16778.084093750003,"end":16780.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16781.594093749998,"end":16807.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16806.18096875,"end":16816.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16817.318468750003,"end":16829.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16829.552843750003,"end":16833.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16833.771593750003,"end":16835.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16835.18909375,"end":16841.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16842.49596875,"end":16843.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16843.795343750004,"end":16851.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16851.490343750003,"end":16853.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16854.19034375,"end":16859.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16859.79284375,"end":16862.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16860.31596875,"end":16860.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16861.176593750002,"end":16862.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16862.965343750002,"end":16870.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16871.858468749997,"end":16875.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16875.554093749997,"end":16880.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16880.63346875,"end":16885.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16885.72971875,"end":16886.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16887.434093750002,"end":16902.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16902.840968750003,"end":16904.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16905.270968750003,"end":16909.388468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16910.147843749997,"end":16911.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16911.64971875,"end":16913.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16914.51846875,"end":16923.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16924.12034375,"end":16936.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16937.16471875,"end":16946.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16947.54284375,"end":16957.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16957.56659375,"end":16962.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16962.61221875,"end":16963.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16963.725968749997,"end":16971.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16972.551593750002,"end":16973.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16974.42471875,"end":16981.444718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16981.832843750002,"end":16989.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16990.624718749998,"end":16991.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16990.945343749998,"end":16993.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16993.94909375,"end":17006.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16994.45534375,"end":16995.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16996.952843749998,"end":16996.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16996.96971875,"end":16997.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16997.39159375,"end":16997.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17006.520968750003,"end":17015.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17015.160968750002,"end":17030.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17030.787218750003,"end":17045.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17045.856593750003,"end":17049.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17049.80534375,"end":17051.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17052.15096875,"end":17053.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17054.24346875,"end":17064.452843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17064.655343749997,"end":17064.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17065.22909375,"end":17074.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17065.24596875,"end":17066.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17069.63346875,"end":17070.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17072.51909375,"end":17079.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17080.41659375,"end":17086.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17083.03221875,"end":17085.225968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17085.445343749998,"end":17085.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17086.32284375,"end":17094.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17095.18221875,"end":17098.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17099.029718750004,"end":17101.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17102.505968750003,"end":17102.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17103.231593750003,"end":17105.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17107.703468749998,"end":17136.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17107.85534375,"end":17108.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17134.062218749998,"end":17142.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17136.61034375,"end":17136.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17142.803468750004,"end":17149.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17144.52471875,"end":17144.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17144.54159375,"end":17147.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17148.94596875,"end":17150.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17149.654718750004,"end":17154.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17151.544718750003,"end":17152.523468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17152.86096875,"end":17153.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17153.50221875,"end":17153.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17154.480968750002,"end":17157.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17156.910968750002,"end":17156.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17156.927843750003,"end":17156.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17156.944718749997,"end":17161.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17158.44659375,"end":17163.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17163.54284375,"end":17167.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17166.25971875,"end":17168.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17168.67284375,"end":17178.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17169.75284375,"end":17170.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17177.14409375,"end":17180.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17181.109718749998,"end":17187.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17187.707843750002,"end":17189.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17190.374093749997,"end":17191.217843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17190.795968749997,"end":17192.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17192.12909375,"end":17192.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17192.348468750002,"end":17192.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17192.365343750003,"end":17193.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17195.77409375,"end":17199.014093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17201.663468749997,"end":17235.092843749997}],"whisperx":[{"start":1959.264,"end":1968.313,"text":"報告委員會初期委員12人已足法定人數現在開會首先我們進行報告事項請議事委員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1970.322,"end":1996.835,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期教育及文化委員會第十四次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一一四年五月二十九日上午九時至下午一十六分地點本案群憲樓101會議室出席委員、客製人委員等十五人列席委員、防國娼委員等六人列席人員、國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文、率同有關人員、主席可召集委員如均報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定"},{"start":1998.496,"end":2014.214,"text":"二 處理一一四年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍書面報告案十七案討論事項 處理一一四年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍專案報告案五案"},{"start":2015.609,"end":2034.795,"text":"本次議程採綜合詢答由委員柯志恩等14人提出質詢均經國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文及相關人員及其答覆說明另有委員謝龍介提出書面質詢決議一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列出記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":2035.655,"end":2054.253,"text":"三對委員諮詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關建樹與書面答覆四一四年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及基礎委員會主管預算解凍案二十二案審查完略均准以動之提報院會通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢"},{"start":2056.604,"end":2084.053,"text":"好 由於在場委員為議答一決人數三人我們議事錄就暫不確定然後今天的議程是邀請文化部次長李靚蕙列席就台灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況既欲求升登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存進行專題報告並備質詢首先先來介紹在場的委員柯志恩委員"},{"start":2087.915,"end":2103.769,"text":"好 那我們與會的官員文化部政務次長李敬慧 李政次那其餘我們就不介紹因為我們都來過太多次了好 那我們現在就請文化部理事長進行報告報告時間八分鐘"},{"start":2112.411,"end":2137.205,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天應大院教育及文化委員會之邀就台灣世界遺產潛力點推供現況即欲求升登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存提出報告並備質詢在此感謝各位委員對文化施政的鼎力協助與支持以下報告內容亦請各位委員指教"},{"start":2138.494,"end":2153.578,"text":"聯合國教科文組織鑒於世界各地的文化和自然遺產受到各種自然與人為的破壞威脅,透過《保護世界文化和自然遺產公約》的推行,呼籲文化遺產在我國是稱為文化資產的重要性,並推動國際合作以保護人類共有的遺產。"},{"start":2160.04,"end":2188.898,"text":"不过因为台湾不是联合国教科文组织UNESCO的会员而且我们也不是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以我们比较难以实际的申请世界遗产登录而且如果要跨国联合申请世界遗产的话要所跨的各国也都需具备缔约国的身份才能够符合资格所以我们到目前为止还没有办法实际的申请事宜或者是跨国来做申请动作"},{"start":2189.878,"end":2207.336,"text":"虽然我们因为国际的现实无法成为保护世界文化和自然遗产公约的缔约国本部仍积极参与UNESCO相关的国际组织与活动并持续引介国际观念与世界遗产相关的组织及活动做实务的连结"},{"start":2208.337,"end":2232.053,"text":"那接下來我們就對目前台灣在世界遺產潛力點的一個推動的情況跟各位做一個說明跟報告本部依據世界遺產公約指南我們成立了台灣世界遺產推動會並持續與潛力點的主政機關縣市政府來協力推動調查研究保存維護還有文本篆擬以及國際交流活動"},{"start":2232.793,"end":2239.893,"text":"同时我们引介了国际观念进行跨部会的协作,来务实地宣扬台湾文化价值。"},{"start":2241.243,"end":2267.662,"text":"首先针对中央的推动的历程部分先跟各位做一个简介本部在民国92年开始那时候还是文件会时期征询国内外的学者专家并含请县市政府及地方文史工作室来提报跟推荐也邀请了国内外专家一起去献刊依照世界遗产登录的标准我们总共领选出了12处世界遗产的潜力点"},{"start":2268.342,"end":2294.948,"text":"在民國98年的時候成立了第一屆的世界遺產推動會並召開了第一次的會議在這個會議當中增加了五處的潛力點這個總共有17處到了民國99年的時候第一屆第四次的推動會決議將原版潛力點裡面的金馬戰地文化分別列為金門戰地文化還有馬祖戰地文化兩處潛力點所以整個統計的數字來到了18處"},{"start":2298.973,"end":2315.456,"text":"之後本部在111年10月份完成修訂了台灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點並成立了第五屆台灣世界遺產推動會推動會的委員任期是兩年邀集了跨部會的機關代表"},{"start":2315.896,"end":2327.47,"text":"各領域專家學者針對推動潛力點業務相關重大事件進行討論及審議並進行跨部會的協作第五屆跟第六屆推動會有一些重要的討論及結論我再錄下"},{"start":2331.087,"end":2353.164,"text":"在113年10月份所召开的第五届台湾世界遗产推动会的第二次会议邀请了外交部的吴志忠政务次长与会推动会的委员依据世界遗产登陆标准还有我们18处的潜力点历年调研还有管理维护的情形做一个综合考量之后"},{"start":2353.664,"end":2372.794,"text":"一致同意以阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀作為我國參與國際組織還有運作的優先推動案例另對於各潛力點每年度就文本專利還有國際合作及推廣部分都提供的縣市政府還有中央等主政機關的相關資源與協助"},{"start":2375.015,"end":2398.702,"text":"在114年的1月份我們召開了第六屆台灣世界遺產推動會的第一次會議這個推動委員建議我們朝向廣泛的經營國際人脈多元國際的推廣及內外部資源整合推動並針對潛力點阿里山林業及鐵道文化景觀還有跟相關部會跟民間團體來合作推廣"},{"start":2399.662,"end":2419.143,"text":"本部就上开推动会的结论事项,办理后续跨部会工作会议,筹备国际论坛活动,以及链接国际组织,并持续协助潜力点主政机关完备相关工作。接下来报告我们关于辅助县市政府办理潜力点的一些计划。"},{"start":2419.884,"end":2437.523,"text":"我們推動相關作業是依照文化資產保存法還有台灣世界遺產潛力點的領選及除名作業要點這兩項法令的規定在潛力點的部分必須至少符合一項世界遺產公約執行作業指南所列出來的"},{"start":2439.369,"end":2457.932,"text":"注入普世價值的標準而且要符合真實性及完整性的條件在潛力點的範圍內必須要含有文資法或者是國家公園法或森林法還有野生動物保護法令等法令的規定獲得法定身份後或受到相關機制保護的區域"},{"start":2459.133,"end":2488.576,"text":"那潜力点的主政机关就所辖的范围的文化资产必须持续的执行保护管理监测跟灾害防救还有文本传理及国际交流推广等工作本部依据到前述的作业要点还有补助的机制提供了相关的资源在111年到112年我们补助了8个县市办理了9个案子在113年到114年我们补助了11个县市办理了12个案子"},{"start":2489.176,"end":2509.529,"text":"截至113年我們18處潛力點當中已經完成了11處的文本並持續督請還有鼓勵為完成潛力點的所在縣市政府與中央等單位盡快的篆擬及補充114年起本部為了強化潛力點特殊價值的論述還有因應國際文化遺產保存的趨勢強調面對氣候變遷的永續及韌性"},{"start":2517.372,"end":2534.328,"text":"所以针对了提案办理适宜文本转移或更新还有补充的潜力点的主政机关列为优先的重点补助接下来第三个重要的工作是建立国际组织伙伴关系本部透过国际参与国际合作还有邀请UNESCO"},{"start":2535.441,"end":2538.064,"text":"相關國際組織,然後來徵詢,然後也辦理國際論壇跟工作坊等等那在辦理國際論壇的部分,從2023年開始,2024我們都辦理了也邀請到了包括了蘭頓組織,還有ICOMS或者是ECOMOS這幾個國際組織的專家學者能夠到國內來"},{"start":2555.945,"end":2575.88,"text":"那今年度我們也會辦理一個國際論壇主題是靈動創新堅韌前行那會邀請到的是IGMOS的主席還有國際自然保護聯盟的代表還有包括澳洲資質型鐵路執行長的一個重要代表來台灣的分享跟諮詢那另外的部分我們也是積極的參與國際組織在國際組織的部分我們除了要求國際"},{"start":2580.743,"end":2607.877,"text":"邀請國際專家來參加我們的論壇又或者透過視訊或者是其他的合作方式可以邀請這些專家來進行交流跟座談然後定期的辦理線上的講座還有跟國際組織的一個人才脈絡的一個心情請問我可以不好意思謝謝那最後的部分我想針對在完善潛力點保存事項的部分做一個說明我們要推動這個"},{"start":2609.372,"end":2632.807,"text":"世界潛力點的主要目的是要引入國際文化資產的保存觀念也要檢視我們自己的文資保存的現況能夠適時的調整整個操作模式讓我們的保存跟推廣工作能夠跟世界接軌然後能夠讓提升國人保存跟維護文化資產的一個視野那這些保存事項裡面其實無非就還是積極的拓展國際關係然後能夠參與國際的重要文化資產的相關會議跟活動"},{"start":2638.291,"end":2656.138,"text":"然後辦理跟世界潛力點保存有關的這些維護事項那完備最重要的是要完備這個指標潛力點相關的申請文件然後跟外交部農業部還有交通部這邊等等合作在國際場合上極力的去宣揚我國文化遺產的價值"},{"start":2659.357,"end":2668.971,"text":"所以呈上本部將致力於國際文化遺產相關公約的措施然後能夠落實到潛力點的保存工作也要透過邀請國際專家的諮詢辦理國際論壇跟交流活動然後以會議作為平台"},{"start":2674.279,"end":2693.222,"text":"進行跨部會的合作跟策略的研擬那也就有補助的計畫來輔助相關潛力點的主政機關落實文化保存的一個維護工作以上報告期盼各位委員能夠指正四教並懇請繼續的鼎力支持來提升我們文化施政的動能謝謝大家"},{"start":2699.278,"end":2716.816,"text":"好 謝謝李次長的報告那我們現在先來確認議事錄那議事錄有無錯誤跟遺漏之處好 沒有好 那議事錄確定那我們今天進行詢答那每位出席委員只需6分鐘"},{"start":2717.577,"end":2744.237,"text":"必要时延长两分钟例行委员质询时间为四分钟发言登记截止时间为十点三十分委员若有临时提案也请于上午十点三十分前提出并以本会委员林沛翔委员质询结束后即立即处理处理提案时若提案委员及联署委员均不在场原例不予处理首先我们请发言登记第一位柯志恩委员质询"},{"start":2749.585,"end":2752.967,"text":"好 谢谢赵伟我们是不是请李次长好 有请李次长嗨 次长好今天为什么部长不出席有比这个备询更重要的事情吗还是他认为这个议题不是太重要所以请次长出来就可以了"},{"start":2768.768,"end":2777.953,"text":"這我不清楚因為我一開始接到的就是由我來出席因為當然文資的業務是由我來做當然如果說這個議題非常重要的話還是應該請部長親自出席我們來看一下書面報告92年開始推動98年我們就選出了17處的潛力點然後我們在99年的時候又把一處變成兩處然後共1899年"},{"start":2792.68,"end":2816.958,"text":"已经做了这件事情之后又过了15年感觉其他好像都在原地踏步没有什么进展更不要说是突破那说实在的申报世界遗产我们必须要做足功课依据申遗的指标就要提出文本传理18处的潜力点当中文本传理进度目前是完成11个还有7处没有完成那这个进度次长你满意吗"},{"start":2819.8,"end":2840.739,"text":"當然就覺得有點可惜啦 那就希望還是 因為現在七處主要都是我們所以說顯然起來還是覺得有很大空間嘛 不是太滿意嘛 但可以接受嘛但是我說實在 我今天看了你十頁的報告 字數三千多一點點啦最重要的是我看不到預期的目標 執行的策略 法制面怎麼樣來研修"},{"start":2841.84,"end":2856.523,"text":"大部會又是如何如何有效管理我們推動了22年目前為止到底有沒有評估跟檢討困難在哪裡怎麼解決這才是今天最大的重點我們希望把這些完全發揚光大概是我們到底做了什麼22年來我們做的什麼我們要問一個比較務實的問題世界遺產潛力點是業務是歸哪一科我們文資局的國際交流科用於潛力點的一年預算是多少"},{"start":2872.956,"end":2898.848,"text":"這個部分有一個數字嗎多少你們應該知道預算多少一年預算多少大概五千萬五千萬上下補助那個地方縣市辦理我這邊資料我們要看對一下到時候弄清楚平均每一年一千五百萬到兩千萬一個點補助大概是一百五十到兩百萬這應該才是正確的數字台灣世界遺產推動會多久開會一次"},{"start":2901.812,"end":2910.826,"text":"要看 我們大概一年會開兩次的會議文化部的官員出席的層級部長部長一年有開到一到兩次會嗎"},{"start":2912.304,"end":2932.412,"text":"小野部長上任之後的兩次都是他親自主持好 那我們來看一下喔你說你說一月就開始有第六屆的台灣世界遺產推動會我們開會就決定針對潛力點特別是我們今天的主軸阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀那你們說要跟相關的民間團體來做合作推廣請問次長要跟哪一個民間團體合作民間機關哪一個民間團體"},{"start":2941.892,"end":2943.093,"text":"那我想請問文化部給這些年輕人什麼樣的鼓勵或什麼樣的支持支援"},{"start":2961.243,"end":2988.163,"text":"我们每一年都会支持就是主席高中的这个青年大使的团体所以你们给予经费给予非常多好那这个部分里面来说我们来看一下世界遗产推动会所做的决议以本席的立场来去看其实蛮担保的我看不出到底要怎么样其实科长很认真说实在但以他一个科去对国外来推展阿里山林业这个潜力点我觉得真的是对他来说太沉重"},{"start":2989.244,"end":3005.863,"text":"老实说从民国92年就是我们2003年文建会就把阿里山这样的部分列为辅导重点准备向全世界来做推广22年之后我们文建会已经变成文化部了你有什么具体的成果跟具体的绩效吗"},{"start":3006.784,"end":3029.366,"text":"而且我跟次長說 你說要跟大家來去開籌備國際會等等之類的說實在是蠻空泛你要如何跨部會 主政的機關寫的農業部理業署寫的嘉義縣政府 寫的嘉義市政府還要不要再找交通部觀光署 國際聯繫要不要找外交部鐵道是位於阿里山國家公園鏈 要不要找內政部國家公園署這些都有沒有找 會議紀錄有沒有找這些人 有"},{"start":3032.168,"end":3053.798,"text":"外交部內政部都有找是不是好到時候把這些資料給本席來看一下而且還有很重要108年2019年7月你們文資局以這個阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀你把阿里山林業鐵路登陸為第一個國家級的重要文化景觀對不起注意你們只有登陸"},{"start":3054.858,"end":3079.72,"text":"除了登陆文化部做的就是登陆还能做什么因为为什么为什么要谈到这个部分因为你们现在目前来说是一个很重要的国宝级的文化资产那文化部只能说一下登陆一下宣传一下但你有没有管理的权限你光是要整合这么多单位就很多行政的程序也非常的融常很重要的一点世界遗产的潜力点有没有法律依据法律依据有没有"},{"start":3081.172,"end":3106.773,"text":"目前就是刚刚讲的这个没有你们22年来没有修过任何一条法只有一个要点这么重要今天赵伟排的一个这么重要我们来反观22年来没有法源只有一个要点你告诉我22年来我们有很在乎我们文化世界文化疑点的这样子的盘点然后把它发扬光大吗我们光是这么样的一个具体没有法源这个要点22年"},{"start":3108.795,"end":3129.312,"text":"然后呢我说实在的以法治层面来说规范不足经费不足政府要设多少人力你才能够让阿里山林业跟铁道永续的经营我们要保存啊但是呢林业署要多少的经费可以让整个养护整个车辆的维持农业部的一个署的人力物力专业能力有没有办法"},{"start":3129.972,"end":3134.194,"text":"然後如果像你們報告裡面所提到的你們還要做條例這麼多我想請問文化部有辦法來接手或是主導嗎以這個方案來說文化部可以主導來接手嗎文化部跟林業署的一直維持非常"},{"start":3146.098,"end":3151.579,"text":"我告訴你很現實的問題啦阿里山鐵路基本的維修每年平均要六千萬如果不幸遇到颱風或石灘部分中斷還要額外經費而且呢十年阿里山談的十多年的民營化都很難以實現如果文化部承擔不起的話我告訴你五年十年一樣在原部塌地我們要找出解方這個報告三千字多一點點沒有解方也沒有預期的目標"},{"start":3173.385,"end":3183.169,"text":"所以你要以阿里山的鐵道絕對支持但是你們寫這個報告我看不出任何的前瞻性而且你還要砸更多的錢那文化部如果這樣子的話你們說把經費用於舉辦國際會議二零二個二零二三一場國際會議三百五十萬然後呢加起來今年編三百三十萬三年來一千多萬"},{"start":3192.412,"end":3206.511,"text":"绩效成果到底是如何二十二年代从过去文件化到文化部一三年花了一千多万到底我们对于这个所谓世界我们要真的把他这个世界遗产的这个潜力点我们到底的绩效跟成果我们还是要问嘛对不对"},{"start":3207.893,"end":3230.747,"text":"这介绍成果到底如何我真的没有看到你们刚刚所讲的对我来说都是一般一般的一个流程而且刚刚次长也很诚实的提到了我们向目前为止世界这个这个申报这个遗产的啊世界遗迹的这部分我们是要联合国的会员吗我们是要联合国的会员那你们现在做的事情我们像今天在做的事情就好像是我们要准备"},{"start":3232.288,"end":3258.05,"text":"练习模拟考好像全部都把他准备很好但是对不起我们还是没有办法真正的拿到报考资格我们没有办法拿到报考资格我们一直在模拟考我们没有报考资格因为我们不是联合国的会员所以我们目前的整个世界遗产我们的联系的窗口我们到底如何这个是我们未来最终的目的那我就是针对今天这样的一个题目我请问次长你认为申请世界遗产的成功率有多大"},{"start":3260.581,"end":3285.132,"text":"當然你剛剛講了委員很清楚知道我們要是申請事宜的最主要都是需要有會員國聯合國的會員國或者是締約所以我們會不會要把我們的目標稍微能夠既然我們都已經知道這個現實的環境我們知道我們國境的處境那我們今天把一個名稱叫做世界好不好台灣世界一起來成立一點的保存跟推動我們可以把我們的目標就是我在"},{"start":3285.872,"end":3309.632,"text":"3000多的资源我们看不到目标我们要把目标放在一个什么样大家可以更具体看到的台湾可以被看到我们觉得这个潜力点我们被看到我们后续的步骤是怎么样但是呢我们把当世界遗产那个是在这个地方可以当作是一个遥远的但这个过程你告诉我模拟考考了半天没有这个入这个没有办法连报考资格都没有那我们的目标该怎么样来设定好"},{"start":3309.912,"end":3321.667,"text":"目標是在這個地方我們才知道該怎麼樣一步來推動你設立一個完全沒有報告連一個資格都沒有辦法進去那我們怎麼辦我們要不要務實一點跟委員報告所以我們採取的策略就是要辦幾國際論壇跟國際鏈接然後去參加國際組織"},{"start":3326.093,"end":3344.935,"text":"让这些考试委员让这些负责考试的人他都知道我们达到那个水准了我们拥有那个潜力资格虽然我们现在没有报考资格可是至少让这一些所以我们永远都是潜力资格跟WHAWHA可能还有机会因为是世界性的这个部分但是"},{"start":3345.936,"end":3370.466,"text":"UNESCO裡面你就不是會員所以我們一直讓國際認為我們有這個資格我們有這個資格也可以啊 你就大膽的講我們就是讓大家知道我們有這個資格就把我們的部分放在資格的這個部分但是要到那個層級上面那你就在你的三千多個字裡面大膽去寫反而否則的話我們今天剛來說所有的委員都要問我們世界遺產的這個部分第一個懷疑那我們到底最終的目標是什麼如果最終目標是放在讓世界看到我們有這個資格就把它調列出來"},{"start":3374.548,"end":3396.402,"text":"如果是剩下这个资格的话那下面我们该怎么样去做可是现在连你们这个部分里面也没有写出来这对我来说是最最了剩下一分钟的时间我是会问一个大家蛮多关心的问题今年金曲奖入围有没有对岸的歌手歌手的部分其实有了李荣浩了好吧那你上次的金曲奖你大陆有26个艺人获准来台今年呢"},{"start":3397.398,"end":3416.368,"text":"我們還是看那個入選者他有沒有提出申請如果有的話主辦單位還是會讓入圍的歌手都還是會過來嘛對不對其實問題是目前來說去年有我們今年不知道然後呢文化部今天說你還是鼓勵兩岸音樂跟影視交流嗎"},{"start":3417.048,"end":3432.816,"text":"文化部还是这个样子吗是的没错是这样子是不是对好那我们来看那我说实在的目前来说因为我们很多的艺人因为牵涉到一些的问题然后呢我们的陆委会的邱全正是特别提到的就说我们会依法来查处我们最后来看一下啊"},{"start":3433.917,"end":3450.936,"text":"到底我們比較好奇這個目前為止其實很多的藝人他們真的覺得對他們來說真的很難表不表態都會被罵好不好這個是我們現在藝人只不過好想想工作可是呢要嘛就是要被要求表態然後表也不對不表也是不對然後呢我個人覺得下面這一個"},{"start":3453.806,"end":3481.723,"text":"这个到底要文化部会不会打算修法对于他们艺人的言论做出法则文化部会不会对这一块面做出法则上面的处理文化部目前对于两岸人民的只有两岸人民条例可以处理这件事情所以文化部不会打算针对你们的艺人来做这个部分文化部目前没有最后一个就是我也觉得说邱水正说文化部会积极辅导艺人回台来发展你觉得他这句话如何"},{"start":3482.623,"end":3509.839,"text":"邱卓正这个主委已经替你们回答文化部会积极辅导艺人同台你把这个大陆这些不管是哪一位怎么样如何回台来发展你如何辅导艺人回台来发展整个的市场的取向整个市场的金额整个市场的规模所以你对于邱卓正主委讲这句话文化部的回应是什么文化部应该是会积极辅导所有的创作者文化的创作者那这些已经成名在大陆已经成名的艺人你如何辅导他回台来发展"},{"start":3511.742,"end":3537.931,"text":"這還是由藝人他的自己的評斷跟你的文化部要積極輔導啊我們如果他們想要回臺發展你可以幫他們找到更好的市場嗎我們還是要把整體的環境給做好所以你們會做這件事提出你們可以給臺灣更友善的一個所謂的表演商業市場各方面你們文化部都會做這些這是文化部應該做的努力讓所有的文化創作者都能夠有很好的發展機會當然是"},{"start":3538.831,"end":3562.665,"text":"但是我觉得以邱主委讲这句话文化部积极辅导下一次我们就来问你们如何让这些已经在大陆成名的这些艺人在因为局势上面让他们真的是表态很困难他们愿意回来的时候你们的辅导的策略到底是什么我讲的是对于已经在大陆已经是做非常多的商业市场的这些人文化部所提出的方法当然根据很有善反击我们都支持但是"},{"start":3563.345,"end":3580.442,"text":"还是跟世界遗产一样目标定在那个地方执行的做法如何的执行做法我觉得这才是我们应该在这边彻底检讨的好不好好 接到 谢谢好 谢谢柯志恩委员次长请回我们接下来请刘淑彬委员"},{"start":3591.594,"end":3594.055,"text":"有請次長再進入到申請世界遺產文化遺產的這個部分"},{"start":3610.751,"end":3633.94,"text":"次長來討論一個問題齁這個跟文化部是有相關的下一頁我們看到的是在這個叫做避拒原則喔避拒原則呢就是因為在文化的這個多元發展當中呢他非常的重要他要維護他的文化的自主跟文化的這樣子的一個一個特殊性齁那這部分他特別要排除掉一個屬於"},{"start":3636.201,"end":3639.702,"text":"正式上面的干擾我們看到文化紀編法當中就提到在第21條當中有這些相關的條文文化不能再做相關的機構委託的時候必須要做到所謂的避拒原則是非常重要的我們看到的是政前部長他在"},{"start":3655.466,"end":3669.99,"text":"這個在107年也提到是說這個在有行政法人成立出來的時候呢避拒原則是非常重要的是能夠讓這樣子的一個文化的治理呢常擁有這個政治跟這個在文化當中呢必須要有它的一個專業支持體系那在這地方的話文創原則院的條例當中也呈現出這個部分必須要多元的這樣子的一個發展那我們再繼續看下一頁"},{"start":3679.332,"end":3686.075,"text":"那這個時候呢我們看到的是今年的這部分我們先問一下文策院是否也適應這個必具原則呢當然啊當然適用嘛對不對所以主要人事任命是否應該跟政治保持距離呢"},{"start":3694.934,"end":3718.665,"text":"跟政治保持距離可是必須跟政策能夠維持一個相同的聯繫或者是一個溝通的一個管道這個本身你們自己在文策院當中就有文化部的代表文化部的這個理事在裡面的這部分就可以呈現出來那我們現在看過去的歷史經驗照您所說的部分過去曾經有"},{"start":3719.585,"end":3747.957,"text":"三位的三位的但是在兩個任期當中的這個文策院的歷任董事長可是我們看到的是丁曉金他後來是在正式完之後才卸任之後才轉任的彭俊亨他是曾任文化部的次長那後來的話因為被這部分呢他是有文化經歷但是我們看看蔡佳俊這部分剛剛的五月份卸任的這個情況他是業界的人士但是今年五月份上任的董事長呢"},{"start":3749.418,"end":3775.711,"text":"文化部發布的命令是在這邊是文化部的政治王實施來兼任那這個部分當中跟過去的經歷是很不一樣的我們看到這個過去的經歷那文化部當時也遵守這樣的一個原則我們就往下看那這個時候我們現在看到跟過去的這個相比的時候呢王實施市長他在做這樣子的兼任到文策院的這個新任董事長你覺得他有更符合必具原則的法律要求嗎"},{"start":3777.691,"end":3803.846,"text":"當然還是符合啦因為他現在是兼任他並不是去專任這個董事會的董事長他是以兼任的方式而且這個兼任最主要的目的是因為我們文策院的投資的這個基金是來自於國發會那國發會他撥了這個基金過來的時候他還是會有些很政策上面的一個要求跟我們在審慎每一個投資案的時候他希望我們要一個很完備的一個程序"},{"start":3804.947,"end":3828.68,"text":"但你的意思是說過去的前面的兩任有三位的董事長在文化部任命的這個董事長中他們就沒有具備所謂文化政策的這個立函是嗎所以他們都曾經擔任過文化部的政務次長所以他們了解文化政策跟政策方向跟整個文策院的"},{"start":3830.19,"end":3856.749,"text":"這個投資裡面該怎麼處理本身就有一個理事在裡面喔那重點 董事在裡面那我們現在重要的是難道台灣文化界就沒有其他合乎必具原則的非政務人員的人選嗎例如說像好名藝人先生啊這部分你事實上這樣子一個任命就是在踐踏可能說是忽略 我剛剛說回忽略到其他部分在文化界當中而且文策院當中本身就是一個行政法人的這個地位當中就是要比較重視到讓他的獨立性能夠呈現出來"},{"start":3859.491,"end":3879.257,"text":"這邊政治的應該排除,意思在這裡這部分當然是非常尊重委員的一個建議跟發言因為這個董事長不是我們想要他擔任他就願意,也要看對方,尤其業界人士因為這個承擔這個地方我不去講,因為那個任期是固定的"},{"start":3881.038,"end":3901.7,"text":"都是到五月的部分所以你們早就知道任期到這一屆的時候就會停止早就可以好好的物色了這部分尤其是那個林遠部長的時候他去年就已經就任了有一年多的時間他可以去好好物色人才我想如果有文化界的人士他願意到這個文策院當董事長的話應該是非常樂意他能夠把文化界的這樣部分的意見呈現出來"},{"start":3902.921,"end":3906.503,"text":"好那下面我們再繼續看下去我就這部分我們好那我就再好我再還是講我這邊部分好了啦文創的這個投資產業我們看到過去的這個一個態度的過去的集中這部分看到在103年的時候呢也是國發基金在投資您說的這也沒錯我們看到103年的時候"},{"start":3922.79,"end":3929.594,"text":"監察院111年的審計部跟110年預算中心他都呈現出來了過度集中在電影產業影視音的這部分那你們後來的時候呢這邊你自己國發會的黑潮企劃也提出來這樣的一個需求就是說應該要捐助到文字出版動漫跟傳統戲劇等等的那我現在最重要的再問的是說你們後來在自己的114年的文策院的營運目標當中也把它放進去但是才放到實案"},{"start":3952.068,"end":3972.514,"text":"非影視的部分才放實案這樣的情況那我們繼續往下看的時候那這樣的情況指標114年才做了這樣的一個部分那114年才做那個指標那你變更的原因我知道應該是也是被其他單位做了很多的一個糾正或是說要修訂的那我們繼續往下看的情況就是說"},{"start":3974.295,"end":3992.677,"text":"你們真的對於這些部分的時候,有沒有的,如果他針對這個影視業的產業的話,不要過分集中在這個影視音樂部分的時候,那你們的這個標準是什麼?往下看。就是說,他們長期偏見,那你們現在已經造成這個結果,那要什麼樣的具體策略去達成?"},{"start":3994.079,"end":4009.608,"text":"跟委員做一個說明影視其實文策院它不只在投資影視業它其實各個產業都會投資只是影視業它本來的投資成本就是它的製作成本就是比較高所以那個金額你會用金額來做"},{"start":4011.144,"end":4027.263,"text":"母數來做比例的話你會覺得它佔了很高的比例可是如果真的從案件數或者是整個比例上來講影視並沒有那麼樣的傾斜那當然我們現在也一直在跟文策院溝通也一直鼓勵我們其他產業能夠努力的來接受投資的概念"},{"start":4029.185,"end":4035.947,"text":"具體我希望我到下一次的時候在真的部分跟我一年之後來去做這個檢討檢討然後現在我們再繼續往下看就是世界遺產這部分剛才柯市問委員有提到這部分就說我們沒有個應考資格這一部分的確是你怎麼繼續再說這個準備其實是沒有問題我覺得剛剛也聽到一個很重要的點在於說您說你們跟外交部這些其他的教育部等等的或都有在做這個做推展"},{"start":4056.954,"end":4070.896,"text":"那這個部分想到的是說那外交部你們應該知道我們沒辦法變成UNESCO的最重要條約的簽約國、締約國等等最重要的原因是不是因為我們不是聯合國的會員國是的那你知道我們要成為聯合國的最重要的原因是什麼呢"},{"start":4074.496,"end":4088.675,"text":"國際間的阻礙是什麼中國啊是中國對不對那中國這部分的時候如果是在這個情況之下這個部分所以必須國家的部分應該必須在這邊要做很大的一個很多的部分的調整啦那在正中央"},{"start":4089.435,"end":4103.5,"text":"我們剛才有聽到柯市委委員說如果外交部或是我們國家沒有把說怎麼樣去改善中國的關係的話這邊的話這是一個很重要的原因剛才也說了所以我想國家應該以這邊的中國關係的改善作為重點另外剛才也說了缺乏法律的依據我們看到在這個100年的時候朱明賢教授他有提到這邊就是說缺乏法律的一個依據"},{"start":4115.905,"end":4132.567,"text":"那這部份教授他提出來的應該建議是世界文化及自然遺產保護法必須要訂定的另外的呢這部份請問市長有沒有要求有沒有可以承諾在什麼時候應該要把一個願板提出來或是至少你們的布板要提到願板裡面去"},{"start":4133.508,"end":4149.356,"text":"跟委員做說明因為我們其實你要成為潛力點要成為我們這個潛力點他第一個他必須要先有文資法或者是剛剛講國家森林法他都一定要先有另外一個法定的資格之後他才能夠談第二步的"},{"start":4151.097,"end":4171.529,"text":"請問現在的文化資產保存法有嗎已經在裡面已經有修法了已經放進去內容了是嗎對啊 就像剛剛我們森林鐵路它就是文化景觀它就是我們的文化資產法裡面所保護的也有法令地位的一個文化景觀但是這個景觀有跟世界文化生產遺址的部分有做連結的嗎"},{"start":4173.03,"end":4176.291,"text":"還是在所謂的文化資產保存法的條件當中對 我們文資法裡面就是參考這個國企世界遺產的這個組織的類別來訂了所謂有文化景觀這樣的一個類別然後裡面要達到的標準會要求我們也都是參考了國企的一個規格在處理的好"},{"start":4191.215,"end":4210.049,"text":"希望說剛才也問到財務的狀況,包括我們說人員財務還有環境這邊,因為依照這個條件上面說,環境的規劃當中,如果你們現在已經有這些的規劃的點這部分,它是說在這個規劃點的至少往外擴一公里的地方,它必須要做一些開始做保護了,你們開始已經往這邊方向在進行的嗎?"},{"start":4212.703,"end":4237.025,"text":"關於整個就是受文資法保護的那個類似定著區的範圍要多大這個都靠審議委員會他們來做一個實地的勘查以後看這個狀況並不是在法令裡面直接去規定說你隨時你要怎麼如果他們有需要擴充範圍的話他只要提出申請在我們的審議委員會裡面通過的話我們就會重新公告他的保護範圍"},{"start":4238.126,"end":4241.71,"text":"好這部分因為是根據這個世界遺產保護法裡面的這個這個條例這邊有提到這些內容啦希望是說依照國際你剛才講說有一個意涵是說讓我們知道國家有想要往這邊方向去做文化的資產的保護包括自然景觀的保護所以跟內政部跟這個"},{"start":4256.764,"end":4274.999,"text":"其他的我剛才有說的外交部這邊甚至我們整個國家的立場上面這部分整個都必須要以整體的說當然這個目標是很好的但是針對怎麼樣透過文化來去提升我們的遺產的這個保護呢去提升我們國際地位這是應該繼續再加強的包括未來我希望說我當然會繼續針對財務還有環境證包括篩房等等如果再做繼續的一個監督好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝劉淑冰委員次長請回"},{"start":4286.718,"end":4307.614,"text":"好 我們接下來請葛如君召委質詢謝謝主席 有請文化部李靜惠理事長好 有請理事長"},{"start":4314.544,"end":4329.274,"text":"次長早 第36屆金曲獎即將在本月底舉行頒獎典禮這次有最佳華語女歌手入圍者魏如萱小姐入圍當然希望大家都可以順利得獎"},{"start":4330.074,"end":4341.142,"text":"他的入圍專輯裡面就有一首歌指黏土的MV裡面有描繪當下流行的AI話題由此可見其實藝術與AI還有文化之間的關係日漸緊密除了AI成為了創作的主題之外也可能成為創作工具的角色之一和文化藝術之間的交集可能會越來越密切本席曾經在質詢的時候速度的來關切"},{"start":4354.952,"end":4383.47,"text":"文化艺术跟AI之间的竞合关系那近期艺文界有关注的焦点呢则是在于文化部组举办的各种奖项啊奖补助的计划到底能不能接受AI协作甚至是直接由AI生成的作品来参加那我们特别检视了金曲奖奖励要点跟报名须知我们发现呢完全没有注明到底AI协作或AI生成的作品可不可以报名参加"},{"start":4384.71,"end":4412.711,"text":"那我们也觉得很奇怪啊报名须知完全也没有提啊是怎么样欢迎大家用AI来写作还是不欢迎可以不可以完全没有但是我们也回去查了发现第35届的时候讲得很清楚哦就说参考葛莱美奖等国际奖项AI技术可以辅助但如果你完全使用的话可能就不行"},{"start":4413.462,"end":4433.169,"text":"那我想因為有非常多人在關心嘛接下來可能講像這個出來了有人哭人笑可能這個問題會更嚴重請問次長第36屆金女獎的報名作品我們是不是依循第35屆新聞稿提到的原則可以使用AI作為輔助但不可以完全使用AI技術生成作品是不是這樣"},{"start":4434.159,"end":4445.683,"text":"對 一樣維持這樣的原則就當作工具可以可是因為他沒有所謂的著作權人格所以這個完全是 聯席35屆嘛對不對謝謝你確定來說明但是如果這個原則已經確定了你們為什麼遲遲不修改獎勵要點跟報名須知呢你們為什麼不把這個規定明確化呢讓大家可以有規範可以質詢為什麼為什麼不修改進去啊"},{"start":4461.829,"end":4488.251,"text":"好那這部分我想如果有這個樣的需求我們還是可以在下一次的要點裡面這有點可惜因為都已經快要頒獎了6月28號那我們來看其實我幫市長跟文化部的同仁做了一點功課其實金曲獎只是其中一個案例我想文化部為了鼓勵文化產業這個我們也支持有很多的獎項補助但是對於AI生成或者是AI的創作"},{"start":4489.744,"end":4505.683,"text":"大家的這個相關的規範可以說是十分不一致啦那我這邊請次長看一下文化黑潮的台灣圖像角色IP品牌發展真案要點就宰明的非常清楚說AI技術可以作為輔助創作"},{"start":4507.245,"end":4533.184,"text":"製作流程的工具完全使用AI技術生成的話他還想得很棒他還說不是本真案支持的對象他還說你可以用但是我們不是要支持這個所以你如果有用這個技術的話你要主動揭露你要提出這個技術跟範圍你使用的這個做得不錯因為為什麼現在按一個鈕就可以生出一堆IP按一個鈕可以生出那個LINE的貼圖一整套"},{"start":4534.385,"end":4562.221,"text":"那第二个文化黑潮的T-Comics这个中长篇漫画产制真爱要点呢完全的表明呢不受理用生成式AI作为创作工具的计划金曼奖呢奖励要点没有注明但是报名文件需减负拒绝书说要使用AI自动生成软体的创作情况但是金曼奖呢直接禁止使用生成式AI创作的作品来比赛"},{"start":4562.961,"end":4568.607,"text":"文化部的繪本圖書創作呢則是在民不受理深圳市的AI作為創作工具的計畫很不一樣啊我這邊也直接把輕慢講的拿出來我覺得對年輕人實在很不公平"},{"start":4577.754,"end":4587.007,"text":"你們在裡面呢直接就寫了說不能用AI輔助也不行奇怪為什麼年輕人不行大人就可以是這樣嗎我想請教次長為什麼同樣類型的補強補助案對AI創作會有不一樣的接受標準你們考量因素是什麼"},{"start":4595.344,"end":4601.77,"text":"先跟委員做說明是這每一項計畫這個要點裡面要不要接受AI這件事情我們都先經過相對這些專業團體的諮詢讓他們跟他們討論要不要接受那這兩個最基本的差別如果是比較是屬於補助計畫類的它會比較寬鬆因為它並不是獎項的競爭沒有名次沒有的所以它是一種"},{"start":4618.084,"end":4634.946,"text":"就像我們的精神是如果你做AI創作是我們的優先對象謝謝次長但我們也看到裡面有一個地方您可能細細的沒看到新漫講的部分要點就沒有載明我理解每一個可能有不一樣的但是有的根本沒寫"},{"start":4636.687,"end":4648.074,"text":"這個我想不能這樣吧我想請教一下次長那你有不一樣的接受度你就應該講清楚啊其實我們這還只是冰山一角啊我想文化部還有很多的補助獎補助獎項計畫都沒有載明的話"},{"start":4651.454,"end":4659.903,"text":"這次長這是什麼原因你說不一樣說不一樣的理由我這個我理解有的根本沒寫啊像我們今年36屆就沒講啊這個是不是這個部分我想我們再來做一個全面的檢視把AI的深層到底接受或不接受接受到什麼程度裡面"},{"start":4669.352,"end":4682.12,"text":"能夠在要點裡面進行說明很好 謝謝我們不用把AI妖魔化可是我覺得要講清楚本席具體要求文化部一個月內可不可以通盤檢討各項獎補助計畫跟獎項應該要在增建要點報名須知當中明文的規定對於AI創作的接受度讓藝文創作者台灣現在很多AI高手藝文創作者很多AI高手他們有明確的規範可以依循不然其實這之後可能有爭議你們也會很麻煩結果可不可以用書面方式來提供給本席"},{"start":4698.411,"end":4717.039,"text":"好 謝謝我們來做檢視可不可以延了三個月因為我們的補助要點真的很多各司都有兩個月好不好因為我們是怕創作者一邊在創作不知道到底能不能用到時候用了又不能參加比賽搞不清楚狀況好不好早一點可以嗎好 再來我想到判別方式"},{"start":4717.879,"end":4721.801,"text":"那無論你接不接受其實評審或者是這個這個評議的過程可能也會需要什麼呢你會需要判別嘛你在這裡有人說有講判別方式有的用拒絕書有的是沒寫清楚那請問次長判別"},{"start":4737.348,"end":4741.573,"text":"這個使用AI創作的過程如果出現爭議要如何處理有部分獎項是不接受完全使用那請問100%跟90% 99%使用AI創作要如何分辨這個要如何判定呢這個次長有沒有看法"},{"start":4755.793,"end":4771.509,"text":"這個部分我們跟這個領域的專家討論的是我們看現在可以接受AI的部分都是它作為背景的創作像剛剛那個金曼獎裡頭它可以用AI的時候可以畫背景 不能畫角色這樣啊對 主要主創的部分金曼獎上面沒寫啊"},{"start":4774.311,"end":4791.763,"text":"所以我們在討論的裡頭因為季曼講我們沒有規定不能用AI可是我們在審判裁判們或者是評審委員們在審查的時候用這樣的準則所以每一次到底要用100%還是90%還是幾%這個事情還是由審查委員就當前的作品來做一個討論"},{"start":4799.728,"end":4820.961,"text":"我想想現在AI已經人眼分不出來啦評審要怎麼分啊所以這個部分我還是得請教因為我們像這次那個會本的新秀獎有沒有AI生成創作所以我們就請了兩位在學校裡面用人眼看嗎我不知道他們的辨識方式是什麼啦可是我們的確是有請專家用什麼方法看"},{"start":4822.205,"end":4847.932,"text":"用人眼看我們就請兩位我覺得文化部要知道好不好文化部要知道為什麼因為我們很關注有沒有工具你們可以來合法而且值得性愛的判斷不然他用眼睛看我喜歡這個作品我說他不是AI我不喜歡這個作品我說他是AI那這樣子變成完全沒有依循標準所以我想文化部115年有沒有編列相關預算要進行採購"},{"start":4850.413,"end":4853.614,"text":"相關的AI判別的工具編列多少金額不好意思我真的不知道現在已經有這樣子的工具如果有的請委員能夠提供我們這方面的資訊網路相關同仁我想跨部會也可以來合作一下蘇發部 國科會同仁真的要努力因為我們這個AI的創作議題從"},{"start":4872.219,"end":4894.85,"text":"去年2月1號我上任我就開始不斷的問所以再拜託各位真的不能這個不然民眾會很困擾像我們剛剛提到甚至有你提到這個金半獎還有這種隱歸者趕快來更新那其實呢我們覺得現在是在預算編列的情況我們也希望之後的爭議減少啦所以我們也是在提說第一工具的採購趕快來研議第二其實國際上有一個趨勢既然你AI的創作可能會有很多的這種"},{"start":4901.753,"end":4907.194,"text":"這個是或不是百分百還是百分之九十其實國際趨勢是說乾脆設立一個AI專屬的獎項啦那我是比較瘋狂一點我說要不要來一個AI精創作獎啊其實台灣有很好的條件啊說不定把他們都導到這裡來你在其他獎項上也比較不會有爭議那譬如說這個AI快速發展洛杉磯即將要誕生第一個AI藝術博物館我請教一下市長"},{"start":4928.798,"end":4933.601,"text":"這些東西都逐漸的提高啦能不能研議新增專屬AI藝術的獎項有沒有這個可能性啊"},{"start":4938.065,"end":4953.613,"text":"再請委員給我們一點時間我們來研究一下好嗎好 我想當然我們還是注意主流國家相關著作權法對於人工智慧的技術在沒有人類參與的情況之下很可能會有不受著作權保護的問題但是有人類參與的情況之下其實是比較寬鬆的所以我想我們希望有一條康莊大道"},{"start":4958.916,"end":4961.659,"text":"讓台灣的文藝創作者可以結合科技我們台灣科技之島嘛我們又要做主權AI嘛我們應該要把他們導引到一個很棒的地方甚至全世界AI創作者都來我們的這個金AI文化創作獎不是很好嗎還可以鼓勵他們用本土的資料來訓練AI來創作"},{"start":4976.658,"end":4998.172,"text":"那我想這個只是一個大的方向我跟主席再爭取一點時間不好意思喔這個文化藝術應用深層式AI的指引其實一直有聽說你們六月下旬好像要公告那具體有沒有現在已經六月了六月五號了上旬了想請次長能不能簡要說明一下六月下旬是不是會公告什麼時候有沒有具體日期"},{"start":5000.285,"end":5015.695,"text":"具體是 其實就確定六月下旬一定會公告啦那日期再看我們中文的流程好 加油那我想問一下因為現在還沒看到我想先了解一下就是說會不會有定期檢視跟修改的機制因為AI跑得很快嘛預計多久檢視一次啊"},{"start":5017.096,"end":5035.107,"text":"有沒有這個機制我們通常所有的法令它都是會有逐年我們逐年都會做一個AI跑得很快我有點懷疑逐年可能會有點太慢請你們再研議一下那第二個問題呢是我想這個AI訓練資料其實很重要沒有資料沒有AI"},{"start":5035.407,"end":5046.937,"text":"沒有AI就沒有主權這是這個大家都認同的所以AI訓練資料庫目前速發部主責辦理請問最後兩個問題不好意思請問文化部是不是有受邀相關的會議有沒有站在藝文工作者的立場表達提供AI來用他們的資料來訓練會不會有合理的分論或講注的機制來幫助文化人提供他們的資料讓我們AI更有台灣價值有沒有這方面的討論政策上"},{"start":5063.931,"end":5088.104,"text":"首先我們有參加這樣的會議那會議裡面我們現在目前提供的資料都以文化部以取得著作權的這樣的資料文字圖像都是那至於說其他還沒有著作權的這部分如何參與主權AI的訓練這部分我們還在繼續研議當中因為剛剛您提到了到底是要先談分潤還是要談以後創作出來的這個預計研議多久"},{"start":5088.464,"end":5113.601,"text":"現在日本已經開放了老久了吉卜利已經擴散到全世界了因為目前速發布的政策他們編列預算只做我們已經有著作權的他還沒有辦法進行下一步的討論積極爭取好不好我想藝文人才是需要一點鼓勵那最後一個問題就是因為這個AI指引我有看到你們的會議記錄上其實很多的藝文人士都覺得予以鼓勵但是呢"},{"start":5114.261,"end":5129.768,"text":"怕看不懂或不太理解能不能製作懶人包和圖解或者用Podcast來宣傳一下甚至能不能建立未來有一個平台或專線讓藝文工作者在使用這些AI的時候遇到的疑問可以直接來詢問有沒有這個機會"},{"start":5131.018,"end":5156.457,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指導這個我們也都會來進行規劃好 謝謝我想AI科技對藝文創作真的不是洪水猛獸很可能反而是台灣價值在藝文世界可以發光的機會我們希望我們的文化部可以更積極主動啦幫助AI科技去融入文化藝術的領域幫助藝文工作者更加專注的把時間跟資源投注在需要人類表達情感灌注我們台灣價值我們中華民國的歷史"},{"start":5159.019,"end":5176.244,"text":"文化發揮創意的項目上希望文化部可以順應潮流我們一起運用科技的力量讓台灣在這個相關的文化藝術可以在國際上發光謝謝委員的指導我們文資局也真的依照委員的那個建議我們文資局也多項的引用AI的技術好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝葛如君 趙偉次長請回好 我們接下來請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":5195.989,"end":5199.591,"text":"謝謝主席我請文化部次長好有請李次長委員早安次長好昨天呢我們教文有安排了考察就是到我們中正區一共是我們有三個場館包括了我們台灣文學館在台北的台灣文學基地以及即將啟用的台灣文學糧倉還有有我們台博館要"},{"start":5225.104,"end":5235.768,"text":"進行規劃再利用的昭和樓也就是未來可能是台博館的分館這三個文化的地景那我自己覺得對於即將要啟用的台灣文學糧倉是非常的期待那這個我說這是我昨天在台灣文學基地做的這個預手嘛"},{"start":5243.59,"end":5253.375,"text":"它是用回收再利用的材質然後裡面是放進了你可以自己挑選你喜歡的一段台灣文學的其中的一句話那我覺得這個設計是跟我們在地社區的互動是非常良好的覺得很肯定那即將要啟用的這個文學糧倉我想它的主要的服務對象是我們台灣的新興的文學創作者"},{"start":5271.943,"end":5277.764,"text":"然後甚至我們也鼓勵跨領域的創作例如說你的空間裡面它如果是戲劇的影音的相關的創作都可以來這裡來使用你的空間所以我想我們未來這個影運勢必在我們台灣文學社群界裡面會形成一個聯誼"},{"start":5292.908,"end":5297.152,"text":"也許有很多還是還在潛力猩猩在進入到我們的文學糧倉裡面的文學沙盒以後會遇到已經在市場上面已經比較能夠站起來的文學作家大家可以一起來相互的交會交流"},{"start":5311.664,"end":5325.896,"text":"所以我們相當的期待不過我想要提醒的是目前看起來你們的營運其實會有一點吃力因為台灣文學館在台北的兩個基地你們總共的人力工作人員是十位那"},{"start":5326.957,"end":5352.828,"text":"要去經營兩個據點所以你的文學兩章目前預計開放的時間是週末是閉館的有開館的時間是平日2到5早上10點到下午6點所以這個時間上對一般的民眾其實相當不友善那即便是對我們的創作者那可能時間也不一定配合得上或者是時間的長度不一定充足你們現在這兩個據點"},{"start":5356.75,"end":5381.96,"text":"每年的經費是多少大概是一千八百萬左右一千八百萬是文學糧倉對有加上文學基地嗎文學基地的話大概也是差不多的金額所以兩個加起來大概三千多萬對所以你一個基地的營運經費一年是一千多萬我是認為真的不夠"},{"start":5386.095,"end":5392.378,"text":"那既然好不容易我們眾所期待像我是國立台灣文學館開幕的時候我們是全家一起跑到台南去看然後我看了一次不夠之後再自己跟同學約了再特別搭車到台南去看所以對台北人來講這個我們稍微在現場我們是很羨慕台南我好不容易台北也有文學館的分館了所以呢我們希望你們可以"},{"start":5411.866,"end":5427.39,"text":"開幕以後營運在營運上面發現倘若我們需要來增加資源我們未來應該要讓他逐步來到位請你們持續來關注那至於昭和樓我今天要給個具體的建議因為昭和樓是2020年我擔任市議員的期間當時感謝衛視工作者林宗奎跟蕭文傑老師提供了一些關於這個場所的新市政"},{"start":5436.733,"end":5440.815,"text":"所以我是這一個文資的提報人當時是我到台北市這個文資審議會現場去報告的那後來也順利的通過歷史建物的審定那後面在我們中央的產權一度從審計部可能一度要交換給國產署那最後我非常的慶幸 歡慶聽到它現在是交到了我們台博館的手上目前也在進行規劃在利用的這個審定對不對"},{"start":5464.787,"end":5469.389,"text":"我想要給一個具體的建議因為我們昨天去看的台灣文學糧倉它就在華山文化園區步行大概兩分鐘那昭和樓台博館未來這個分館更是緊鄰華山文創園區所以這可能是全台灣各縣市裡面相當罕見的很密集的藝文聚落"},{"start":5491.656,"end":5511.388,"text":"在一個步行五分鐘之內我們有你們文化部的華山應文園區有我們台灣文學館的分館有台博館的分館所以我認為未來這個台博館的分館昭和樓在做規劃的時候務必要去考量它跟周邊聚落"},{"start":5512.168,"end":5537.117,"text":"的聚合性例如說華山園區裡面有這個音樂展演廳它裡面有電影院那你文學糧商有文學沙盒那這個昭和樓它有沒有可能未來成為一個音樂沙盒就是培養潛力新星因為能夠到華山裡面Legacy去表演專場的都是一定具有一定的市場性"},{"start":5537.757,"end":5558.58,"text":"所以我想這個因為都還在討論當中啦我想未來希望你們可以邀請相關的年輕世代的藝文社群大家可以一起來討論這個絕對會是未來我們百年難得一見很重要的藝文聚落好不好邀請藝文社群來一起來討論它未來的可能性謝謝委員的建議那這個邀請"},{"start":5559.981,"end":5573.777,"text":"周遭或者是藝文團體文化人士的共同討論這一定會做那只是先初步跟部長因為台博的它是台博的分館可是台博現在業務裡面還真是沒有涉及到音樂這一塊"},{"start":5574.858,"end":5601.971,"text":"沒有錯所以我就是要提醒你們文化部的角色是因為如果是從台博的本位思考的話一定是以台博在中正區台北好幾個分館一定是以台博各個分館之間的搭配來做設置但是我提醒你們必須要以揭霍文化聚落的角度來去思考這個據點竟然花了那麼多資源把它變成歷史兼務花那麼多錢重新修復要去活化使用了它應該要"},{"start":5604.312,"end":5607.214,"text":"對這個聚落的整體藝文發展我覺得他要有提出他的貢獻所以這個請你們也納入來討論好 最後是有關於我們今天的世界文化遺產潛力點首先我要說台灣因為中國的因素"},{"start":5619.62,"end":5643.988,"text":"平平對台灣打壓所以無法加入聯合國組織但是台灣沒有因此減少在世界上面的影響力以醫療來說台灣沒有加入WHO但是台灣在國際的醫療貢獻是大家都肯定的尤其在防疫期間之後世界各國包括北美包括歐洲包括亞太各個地區都是很多國際組織"},{"start":5645.689,"end":5647.712,"text":"科研單位來到台灣要跟我們一起來去學習我們的防疫經驗而台灣的文化也一樣即便我們沒有加入聯合國教科文組織但是台灣的文化在世界上的影響一點也不會因此減少所以呢我們現在要討論的"},{"start":5664.813,"end":5679.916,"text":"是我們對於我們自己的執行計畫有沒有可以再精進的地方我們台灣是在92年文建會實行的世界文化已知潛力點開始推動由專家學者跟地方政府來推薦然後你們領選總共是18處嘛18處裡面到今天114年有7處還沒有完成你們的文本"},{"start":5693.683,"end":5698.985,"text":"15年的時間沒有辦法完成因為這個部分都還是有那個潛力點的主管機關我瞭解所以這15年的期間你們跟潛力點的主管機關斷線了嗎"},{"start":5718.903,"end":5748.415,"text":"应该讲说目前比较难完成的是像大屯火山群然后这个是内政部还有因为他又不是只有内政部主管因为还跨了新北市政府还有台北市政府这种跨单位的就是一个潜力点跨了两三个单位的通常在文本的传理上会跨单位我们都了解但我想15年的时间这个协调沟通总是应该串上线的赶快把它补上好不好"},{"start":5748.915,"end":5772.856,"text":"哪一個地方政府不願意配合你們也可以提出來我們大家一起來協助溝通所以這個是第一點那第二個是我們現在的網站因為我們還是要邁向國際嘛你的網站這第一頁首頁是全英文可是除了左邊的第一個標籤以外從第二個標籤開始點進去裡面通通是中文"},{"start":5774.827,"end":5781.892,"text":"這個市長你們恐怕也蠻久沒看這個網頁我知道你們有在陸續更新沒有完成所以趕快好不好我知道之前慢了多有時間可以把它完成更新目前在改版中就剛好在改版中所以那個只有維持封面是18個點這15年來一個點都沒有增加所以這些基礎資料早就應該要完成盡速去改善好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5806.055,"end":5813.621,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩奕委員好 次長請回我們接下來請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席 請次長好 有請次長次長早委員早安次長"},{"start":5836.383,"end":5857.219,"text":"近日这个新闻上近日又频频传出中国对台湾进行各种认知作战例如说在社群平台上散播假讯息等其中影响最广最多的就是让负重发展的台湾艺人配合散播相关的资讯还有邀请艺人负重拍摄呼吁两岸统一的剧情电影要求艺人配合转发"},{"start":5857.739,"end":5873.435,"text":"台灣不是一個國家台灣唯一稱為就是中國台灣省這種貶低台灣踐踏台灣主權的帖文還有藝人為求發展直接認同自己就是中國人而不斷地貶低台灣次長您覺得說藝人附中是為求發展但是卻陸續發出這樣子傷害台灣主權的言論文化部認為這樣子是合適的嗎"},{"start":5878.306,"end":5904.088,"text":"當然我們還是要譴責中國的這種做法這種統戰的做法然後去利用我們的藝人或者是文化界人士強迫他們去做這樣子的表態我們真的希望中國可以不要用統戰或政治的手腕來逼迫藝人跟文化人做任何的表態所以其實文化部這邊的立場也覺得這是非常不適合不恰當的"},{"start":5904.969,"end":5915.432,"text":"那陸委會日前也明確的表示說針對這些邁臺藝人會有相關規範的訂定並且會協同文化部來召開專案會議想要次長說目前你們進度如何"},{"start":5917.159,"end":5917.299,"text":"行政院在開會協調"},{"start":5948.08,"end":5966.423,"text":"因為我會表示說藝人如果有在特定的時間轉發中共訊息會視為說是一個合作的性質也會同文化部進行行政查核按照他的頻率及嚴重性用客觀的標準來檢視本席相信說文化部不會一律的就是禁止藝人負重發展"},{"start":5966.863,"end":5982.425,"text":"但是在台灣發揮在台灣孕育成長的這些藝人腹中發展之後數點忘祖為求發展不斷的配合共產黨進行任職作戰我想這是台灣民眾沒有辦法接受的他們根本是忘了自己的國家也不要自己的家忘了自己的國"},{"start":5983.226,"end":6001.666,"text":"那文化部這邊呢是不是會針對說調查後之後有確實有邁達行為的相關藝人有一些因應的這個處罰機制例如說是不是追討曾經補助過的計畫經費或是規定之後有相關文化部這邊的補助案他們不能申請會不會朝這個方向"},{"start":6002.826,"end":6014.015,"text":"目前就我所知啦我們跟陸委會這邊協調是他這個反應就如果有確切的一個接受對方的補助或者是而去發了這樣子傷害我們國權踐踏台灣地位的這樣的言論的時候是會有罰環那可是這個罰環"},{"start":6022.381,"end":6034.175,"text":"是不是要涉及說我們用其他的追討前面曾經補助過或者是限制他未來的補助資格這件事情我們會一併的加以討論跟研議好嗎希望說你們去研議朝這個方向因為我們不能讓他有恃無恐"},{"start":6038.26,"end":6043.681,"text":"不能覺得說我在這邊講了什麼 我配合中共 配合共產黨所發的言論文化部這邊拿我沒皮條這個部分我希望說我們有一個比較嚴格的 嚴謹的一個規範希望說我們文化部跟陸委會這邊盡速將相關的規範制定完成讓藝人附中發展他們有所因應 有所依循 也景氣"},{"start":6062.245,"end":6067.488,"text":"他們就說有這樣子的規範在 謹慶他們不能這樣子無底線的配合共產黨來傷害台灣的主權 傷害台灣民眾的心這個部分希望你們可以盡快有一個規範來制定那接下來我這邊要先感謝次長您在今年魯班公宴代表文化部到鹿港參加魯班公宴的這個祭典並且擔任主祭官"},{"start":6085.419,"end":6101.057,"text":"我相信說次長您在盧班公演的時候也看到說許多令人讚嘆令人驚豔的這個公益作品那本席選區鹿港也是說是算是公益古鎮那本席也一直非常關心公益人才以及匠師的這個培育以及育成"},{"start":6101.858,"end":6129.253,"text":"工藝技衣之所以重要是因為工藝存在於我們的生活之中小到所做的這小東西大到裝飾品或是裝置藝術工藝是無所不在的那工藝也是需要紀念需要傳承以及推廣本席鄉事務次長也是認同的那國立台灣工藝研究發展中心推出2025台灣工藝祭那五號部長李遠部長在致詞的時候有表示說工藝就在生活之中也是最認得"},{"start":6130.233,"end":6159.193,"text":"可以最讓人喚醒這個生活的熱情那今年有台灣公益祭未來台灣也會是公益島顯現我們台灣公益祭是受到大家的肯定不論是文化部還是民間的這個公益人才都是認同台灣公益的優秀與創新那台灣有如此優秀的公益祭以及這麼多的公益人才文化部一直以來也都在研擬這個設置台灣公益節那本席這邊想請教目前研擬的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":6160.874,"end":6180.166,"text":"對台灣公益節?台灣公益節的部分我們現在是透過活動我們每年在6月5號的時候其實都會有一系列的活動來凸顯我們公益在生活中的一個重要性那至於能不能訂一個節日的部分因為要有提案單位所以這部分就我所知我們好像一個公益總會它現在也有一些提案"},{"start":6180.706,"end":6185.111,"text":"那我想民間的那個能量如果那個提議到一定能量的時候我們會適時的去轉達給內政部然後看讓內政部來研議是不是能夠定為一個所謂的假日或是節日"},{"start":6195.623,"end":6196.323,"text":"那我今天也有相關的臨時提案"},{"start":6216.491,"end":6236.656,"text":"網部竟然沒有方向有規劃就應該讓台灣公益節可以成真我們來表彰就是對台灣公益的肯定跟支持公益其實一直是一個很沉默但是又一直在不斷的在付出不斷的在默默的做他們自己創新這個公益的這樣手作的這樣一個群體但是"},{"start":6238.496,"end":6258.021,"text":"有我們文化部這邊如果你們可以提報到內政部對他們的肯定我想這個對所有的公益人來講也是一個很大的鼓舞我希望說你們這邊可以盡快來做相關的這個規劃謝謝委員提醒我們會再跟公益中心這邊做討論看什麼時候可以有進一步的動作"},{"start":6261.522,"end":6264.803,"text":"好 謝謝次長那現在進入今天這個專報的主題網部這邊我們為了呼籲聯合國家科文組織推動國際合作保護人類共有遺產從92年開始就辦理台灣世界遺產潛力點的遴選那從99年確定有18處的潛力點之後都沒有再新增那這十幾年來都沒有合適新增的潛力點嗎"},{"start":6289.543,"end":6296.836,"text":"應該是說我們一年在討論的時候包括在112年的第五屆的最後一次討論其實有談到說因為"},{"start":6300.523,"end":6320.069,"text":"我們剛剛講預算大概就是五千萬如果說潛力點不斷的增加的話其實勢多利分就是會我們對於潛力點的保護或者是力量就會被均分掉了所以才會希望集中所以為什麼後來台討論說我們可能用"},{"start":6322.31,"end":6348.55,"text":"阿里山林業鐵路作為一個集中的一個保護點把利器稍微集中一些不然我們邀請來的這些國外的專家來他也很難一口氣看18個點那我們才會有這樣子一個逐步的討論可是並不是說我們只做阿里山其他17處就放棄掉也不能這樣子我們要繼續保溫繼續支持他們所以如果要不要再增加新的潛力點這個部分就我們的要點來講我們並沒有禁止"},{"start":6350.211,"end":6374.859,"text":"地方政府如果提出那我們還是會經過審議委員會這樣一個去討論那只是跟委員做說明的是審議委員不免會考慮到說現有的18個點都還沒有做好甚至還有7處連那個潛力的文本都還沒有完成那是覺得說是不是在此時此刻要增加新的潛力點這個部分委員們會去做另外的考量"},{"start":6375.259,"end":6392.632,"text":"那只是說只要有縣政府提報的話我們其實基本上都還是會盡量的挪出經費來支持縣市政府做初期的一個研究跟文本的鑽明但是其實根據作業議要點的規定除了縣市政府提報之外文資局也可以自行提報文資局這邊你們有自行提報過嗎"},{"start":6396.089,"end":6418.782,"text":"這是剛剛的提問就是已經有18處了所以有一點是因為礙於預算還有人力這其實這樣聽起來覺得有點遺憾那本席這邊也問過文資局我們彰化縣政府在111年有提出文資局的補助50萬來進行前立點的撰寫及評估計畫但是後來沒有正式的提報是中間有什麼問題嗎為什麼後來就無疾而終"},{"start":6421.954,"end":6421.994,"text":"張嬅縣政府"},{"start":6447.178,"end":6461.112,"text":"應該這樣講就是說我們他現在做完一個評估報告之後所以理論上他如果要進到我們的審議大會裡頭他還是得先有他地方層級的世界遺產推動會去他地方層級先通過他然後還有另外一個他必須要講講公聽會因為"},{"start":6463.234,"end":6478.602,"text":"一旦被劃定是歷史結局就是他有文化資產的身份以後對於當地的居民的土地建物都會有相對程度的一種限制所以他必須透過公聽會得到民眾的支持了以後我們才有辦法進行下一步"},{"start":6479.488,"end":6492.485,"text":"所以他申請補助來撰寫這個評估計畫之後他自己彰化縣政府並沒有進行後面後續的相關目前還沒有目前還沒有本席希望說文化部我們辦理這個世界遺產潛力點要"},{"start":6494.468,"end":6499.031,"text":"希望可以更積極雖然說剛有提到說可能礙於經費跟人力但是我們在補助縣市政府完成相關計畫之後希望也要持續追蹤我們至少要掌握後續的狀況是如何希望可以讓縣市政府順利的完成就像剛剛配議委員講的不要斷線這個中間有怎樣的問題產生我們都應該要去了解跟掌握"},{"start":6518.604,"end":6537.936,"text":"我們是希望說讓我們台灣有更多具有世界遺產潛力的這個文化景點可以妥善的保存而且可以讓我們國人一起甚至讓外國的遊客更多人來領略台灣之美所以這個部分也希望文化部可以更積極謝謝委員的提醒 我們會繼續努力好 以上謝謝 謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳秀寶委員 次長請回我們接下來請郭鈺晴委員"},{"start":6552.093,"end":6555.682,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請李次長"},{"start":6561.537,"end":6585.254,"text":"委員早非常早今天部長沒來所以我的第一題跟時事相關的如果您知道多少就回答多少好了那我想近期尤其是接下來可能暑假到了就有很多的海外的不管是韓團也好或者是一些偶像團體也好他們可能就會來台灣辦一些相關的不管是粉絲見面會也好或者是簽唱會等等"},{"start":6585.874,"end":6610.316,"text":"那我們知道這個韓國的普寶英來台的活動喔那就是主辦方他們片面的就說要來延期那這件事情我不曉得這個文化部這邊知道他們延期的一個原因到底是什麼嗎那因為上次其實在這個泰國的這個偶像他們要來台灣喔但是呢之後就查到就是超級娛樂公司他們是有一個中資的一個背景喔"},{"start":6610.876,"end":6635.562,"text":"那當然這個所謂的這個見面會當然也就取消了那但是接著下來其實我們也可能會面臨到有一些類似像這樣子的一個偶像的主辦方他們可能也會有所謂的這個中資的一個跨境的資金那我想這個會影響到的就是粉絲的權益還有我們的國安的一些警訊那這個部分不知道文化部這邊掌握有多少"},{"start":6638.1,"end":6653.916,"text":"好 剛剛謝謝委員的垂詢剛剛提到了幾個這種比較是韓團或韓星他們的見面會為什麼會延期或是取消這件事情應該判斷起來都還是商業上面的考慮是好"},{"start":6657.94,"end":6684.231,"text":"當然我們後來也去求證了就是他們可能是因為內部也許是這個票房不好或者是票賣的不好是他們自己內部的延期的取消但是我想要提醒文化部的就是我們建議就是之後如果有類似的像這樣子海外的偶像團體要來到台灣它是另外一種不同的形式的一個文化上的一個表演尤其是影視文化上的表演它所接觸的可能都會是很多的年輕人"},{"start":6685.231,"end":6711.357,"text":"但是在這個主辦商的誠信登錄的一個制度其實我們是可以來做這樣子的一個比較外資深報透明的一個機制來掌握就是說它背後的這個資金的就是有沒有中字的一個背景這提醒給文化部好那我們進入今天的這個主題我想今天大家在討論的是我們台灣的世界遺產但是看得到的跟看不到的其實看不到的也很重要"},{"start":6712.417,"end":6734.196,"text":"那我们今天来聚焦一下就我的部分我们来聚焦一下这些看不到的一些遗产我想这个为了衔接国际的一个制度我们是在2014年是看得到的台湾世界遗产的一个不管是点名领选或者是我们的一个除名的一个要点是2014年我们就已经定定了但是我在这个地方要来说的是"},{"start":6735.057,"end":6756.133,"text":"非宜的部分 尤其是我們的潛力名錄的領選一個出名的這個作業的要點跟非宜的一個推動會是直到2022年整整是晚了8年左右但是這個非宜的部分其實也非常重要那尤其今天其實文化部雖然我們聚焦的這個專案報告是在所謂的這個看得到的"},{"start":6756.934,"end":6770.129,"text":"這些就是看得到的這些世界遺產的部分但是呢反映在非裔在整體上的我們在政策上可能還是面臨這個可見度以及這個主流化不足的一個挑戰那我想呢這個無形當中的這些非裔的一個資產"},{"start":6774.113,"end":6777.155,"text":"那特別是我們要再爭取這個國際文化話語權跟提升這個辨識度識別度的部分我們更仰賴所謂的這個科學的研究還有整個制度的一個結合還有政策的一個支持啦不然其實我們也很擔心喔非儀的部分會慢慢的被邊緣化"},{"start":6793.948,"end":6803.321,"text":"那麼尤其是現在我們看得到的包含中國的部分他們其實也是蠢蠢欲動的要往這個非裔的部分尤其是台灣的非裔的部分要來這個驚吞蠶食應該可以這麼說"},{"start":6806.482,"end":6813.986,"text":"那我們像這個文化部來所知這個近三年非疑的這個調研還有保存的維護還有建立這個國際組織的夥伴的關係這樣子的一個經費其實是遠遠超過所謂的示疑的一個經費但是從制度面來講我覺得我們並沒有明確的一個規劃那我想問一下的就是問一下文化部這邊如果針對所謂這被遴選的12項的這個非疑的部分的潛力的項目"},{"start":6834.156,"end":6836.727,"text":"我們有沒有一些重點投入的一些項目"},{"start":6839.312,"end":6860.146,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問那這邊先跟委員說明一下對非宜這項工作其實它的起步是一樣在民國98年2009年就開始只是那時候我們並沒有分開來我們是把看得見的跟看不見的都同在一個推動委員會裡面去執行是一直到了但說要點是到2022年才設立的啊對對對 才把這兩個"},{"start":6864.409,"end":6866.471,"text":"事情分開來然後現在也有兩個不同的推動會在處理那現在我們有哪一些我剛剛講的這個12項的這個非移的這個項目我們是有投入在哪一個部分嗎應該講我們這12項都"},{"start":6879.892,"end":6903.402,"text":"比較是平均的只要有民間單位或是地方縣市政府有提出申請的時候我們都會盡量的寬於補助那只是他並沒有像剛剛講的在市移的部分我們有明確的去討論出來說只推集中力量去推那個阿里山森林鐵路在非移的部分因為每一項委員會看起來就每一下都很重要都捨不得"},{"start":6904.202,"end":6929.117,"text":"所以有沒有一個比較確定的一些進程我比方說像我們現在畫面當中看到南島民族的一個論壇六年計畫其實到今年為止可能我們就要結束囉那這個部分已經要結束的話那有沒有可能再把這個部分的不管是轉化到它的戰略的一個格局轉化成所謂的非疑的一個國際論述的一個基礎來強化我們自己在文化上的一個主權跟國際的一個影響力"},{"start":6929.757,"end":6942.126,"text":"如果像這個計畫今年要結束那接著下來有沒有要繼續延續還有沒有要繼續加強這個部分我們跟原民會來討論好不好所以還要討論因為南島民族論壇本來就是原民會的案子"},{"start":6943.117,"end":6962.395,"text":"它並不是文化部的那可是這件事情南島民族的確是我們非議裡面一個重要的項目但還記得嗎我們文化部跟外交部日前才強調就是我們部部都是外交部的一個概念而且要重視所謂的這個價值外交跟這個總和外交所以不是我應該是說要跨部會啦好"},{"start":6963.375,"end":6983.026,"text":"應該是跨部會不是推給我們的原民會就沒事了因為這個文化的部分其實這個範圍是很大的包含外交部文化部原民會還有中研院甚至教育部我們其實都應該要來跨部會來做合作才對啊好那接下來我想問的就是那這個部分如果有更快的一個進程可以多久之後可以提供給我們"},{"start":6985.177,"end":6999.926,"text":"兩個月好嗎兩個月我們跟委員會來討論一下怎麼樣進行下一個階段的這個論壇好為什麼我說非疑非常的重要今天是因為時間的關係所以我們就挑重點講為什麼說非疑非常重要是因為中國文化他們在整合戰略上的其實已經對我們的所謂的"},{"start":7002.008,"end":7014.702,"text":"這個本土包含我們這個南島語系的這個文化的遺跡那麼他們也把它要列入是中國世界文化遺跡的預備名單當中這其實已經是被他們登錄而且我們的這個項目當中已經有兩項是被他成功登錄變成是他們的"},{"start":7021.71,"end":7033.709,"text":"世界非夷的部分那我們在這個部分我們有做什麼樣的一個防範的措施我們怎麼樣針對他們搶住他國文化資產的部分像之前他們也搶韓國的那當然引起這個韓國非常大的一個反彈啦"},{"start":7037.133,"end":7056.662,"text":"包含他們講說什麼不管是食鍋拌飯也好 泡菜也好那當然也被韓國他們批評說這個是完全在扭曲歷史但是我們知道這個中國他們是無孔不入啊他現在是連飛移的部分都有可能會入侵都有可能要搶先登陸這個部分我們有沒有因應的對策這個部分大家真的要協助那個尋求國際的"},{"start":7062.308,"end":7084.263,"text":"這些專家學者或是國際組織的協助因為他這個整個審查的時候他送審我們因為我們沒有那個報考資格所以而且現在中國就一向主張他把我們發生在台灣今天他一次自己就把他以為是我們已經有領選優先推動的一些潛力的名錄了嘛那我們自己本身怎麼樣來防範這個部分我們還要經過跟國際來討論才能保護"},{"start":7086.084,"end":7109.722,"text":"我是說防範中國把台灣的包括南島或者是去登陸為他的飛儀這個部分我們必須要國際的力量可是在國內上來講我們當然要持續的加強力道來輔助要怎麼加強力道有沒有一些具體的實際的做法要加強力道不是嘴巴講啊那加強力道其實要有一些實際的作為啊"},{"start":7111.005,"end":7129.888,"text":"當然我們知道其實我們如果缺乏跟飛儀整合跟國際的一個布局的一個機制我們的所謂的這些飛儀有可能就會被挪用了尤其是被中國挪用欸對啊 這個不是只有靠國外 靠國際我們自己本身怎麼守護啊有沒有一些具體的做法"},{"start":7131.911,"end":7149.233,"text":"政府能做的角色就是基本上積極的努力的去補助或協助我給你們一個方向給你們一個建議好不好我們是不是可以考慮成立建立南島文化國際協作的一個機制我們可以來加強比方說我們可以跟帛琉跟我們的友邦"},{"start":7149.693,"end":7176.825,"text":"我們跟我們的帛琉跟這個土瓦魯友邦一起來共同推動所謂的南島語系的飛移的申請我們一起來做好嗎那這個部分其實真的要快因為我們都知道其實中國對我們不是只有飛機派來在那邊飛而已啊不是只有天天在我們的這個附近的海域在那邊演習而已啊他現在是蠶食驚吞不管是用統戰的工具也好或者是他用任志作戰也好或者是他用"},{"start":7177.185,"end":7198.717,"text":"非儀連文化的部分都有可能會被他們拿去做挪用這個部分真的要靠大家一起努力文化部加油好嗎好因為今天時間的關係喔那如果有更新的一些進程麻煩提供給我們辦公室好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝市長謝謝主席好謝謝郭玉琴委員市長請回我們接下來請張雅玲委員"},{"start":7214.258,"end":7215.602,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請次長好有請次長"},{"start":7222.83,"end":7246.29,"text":"委員早好 次長早今天其實主要是想要來跟次長來討論有關於我們世界遺產的一個從行銷 從文化統戰這件事情來做一些討論就是說我們現在這幾年我們非常清楚的知道說中國其實一直不停的試圖用各個面向來去對世界說台灣是中國的 對不對"},{"start":7246.67,"end":7273.335,"text":"因為這幾年 這很多很多年來這是他們的敘事的方式其實我自己以前念書的時候或是我們碰到一些外國人的時候大家其實也並沒有辦法分得那麼清楚華人世界裡面台灣跟中國到底實質上的差別在哪裡所以我覺得其實世界文化我們這個世界遺產的潛力點就會是一個非常好的機會來去敘述我們兩者之間的差異透過文化的方式來讓大家更能夠去"},{"start":7273.775,"end":7299.109,"text":"通過大家來看這個文化遺產的這個方式來更了解那我們現在呢其實是有這18個潛力點那其實都有不同的一個文化標籤也都非常可以清楚的說明台灣跟中國不同的地方可是我發現我們好像在使用這18個遺產的時候呢並沒有很強化的來去做一些宣傳跟曝光就簡單來說"},{"start":7300.973,"end":7314.073,"text":"像我們這幾年其實是在做阿里山森林鐵路這好像是你們跟外交部之前開會的時候覺得這是一個非常有吸引力的景點所以這是你們強推的所以你們不僅有做一些宣傳然後你們也會開國際研討會等等"},{"start":7316.437,"end":7335.988,"text":"那我覺得這當然我也非常的支持但是我覺得有一件現實還是要考量就是阿里山鐵路這件事情這兩年來雖然去年要復本來要開始恢復但是後來遇到颱風種種種種的狀況所以變成說我們可能吸引他來台灣他並沒有辦法真正的去這裡所以我們是不是有一些備案呢準備要來去接著上去呢有沒有"},{"start":7337.847,"end":7359.17,"text":"目前還沒有 因為兩次那個推動會討論都是希望以阿里山森林鐵路當作一個主推的一個計畫因為他這個案子之所以會被選上是因為目前在日本還有澳洲還有歐洲都還有一些高山鐵路的存在或是直直行鐵路的存在他有一個跨國性的一個理解基本上我覺得這個"},{"start":7360.952,"end":7378.885,"text":"這個推翻阿里山森林鐵路我是沒有任何意見但是我覺得我們應該要準備來第二個備案就是說因為大家可能吸引了大家來可是事實上這個地方現在就是因為鐵路啊有時候一些狀況他就是沒有辦法去嘛所以我們是不是應該要準備一個第二個備案來去做更多的讓大家來的時候他是有機會可以去看見的對"},{"start":7381.107,"end":7396.981,"text":"部分我們也來進行一個討論選出後面的一個順序我覺得我們應該要來準備啦那這樣子的話大家來說除了阿里山不能來的話它至少還有個點它也可以去因為我們的重點還是希望可以建立台灣跟中國的不同所以再來就是說我們現在呢"},{"start":7399.639,"end":7416.307,"text":"我們可以看到這個是日本的世界文化遺產的網頁那其實日本針對他們自己的世界遺產宣傳不遺餘力然後拍出來的照片都非常之美那我自己會認為說世界文化遺產其實對於很多國家來說都把它當作一個文化觀光財"},{"start":7417.688,"end":7433.601,"text":"的定位所以呢我們來看看我們自己的部分這是我們自己我看我們選了我們其中的一個點我覺得我們的照片好像整個畫素也都沒有那麼有吸引力呈現上面我們的圖片好像也稍微都有一點小"},{"start":7434.721,"end":7461.749,"text":"這個可能在敘述上面次長懂我意思我們努力改善同仁是講說那個照片可以點開放大對 點開放大但是它其實跟這個比起來還是有落差我都有點開我們努力的學習然後我們的影音的畫素似乎也都有一點低因為好像我不太確定上次更新是什麼時候這些影片"},{"start":7463.149,"end":7464.971,"text":"照片更新是什麼時候啊?很多年前了如果我們今天要來做宣傳跟觀光的話我想照片是一個非常重要的重點那再接下一些細節就是說我們今天進去的時候呢市長就可以看到這就是點進去的大照片就長這樣子啦"},{"start":7492.695,"end":7519.257,"text":"適應力還是有待加強但是我們這是日文介面可是我們右邊這邊怎麼會出現這個部分因為最近剛好也在改版當中所以一些版面都有一個不對稱或者是說點了英文版進去就後來又還是跳出都是中文的資料所以這個部分我們會改善所以這個部分我們現在是已經有在做這個更新了是嗎改版更新是的"},{"start":7519.978,"end":7534.034,"text":"那大概是什麼時候會更新完成呢是預計今年一定會完成今年年底是不是今年年底嗎好的那我想這部分是不是也可以一併的來改善因為這是台灣的世界文化遺產我們怎麼放了一個金字塔"},{"start":7540.714,"end":7567.83,"text":"好 抱歉 這我們來改善因為我還是要再強調我一開始講的一個主題這個是我們台灣跟中國不同的地方我們一定要在這個畫面我們讓別人接觸到的這個這是我們唯一的網站啦 坦白說啦這是我們唯一的網站我們應該要非常的確保它是呈現台灣世界文化遺產相關的資訊才對好 那這個部分請次長還有文資局局長一定要確實的來去監督 好嗎"},{"start":7570.438,"end":7590.09,"text":"可以嗎可以可以謝謝委員的指導那再來就是說聯合國教科文組織其實還有另外一個叫做世界非物質文化遺產的認證我們現在也有12項那我們接下來是否會開始針對這些非文化遺產的潛力名錄呢來去做一些盤點跟新增呢我們有沒有這個計畫"},{"start":7591.81,"end":7607.186,"text":"這個一直有在持續討論中像上一次的會議裡面談到的就是客家的部分是不是要納入客家八音那這個議題因為要納入它還是要有一個一定的程序這部分在上次的委員會裡面有委員提出了所以我們也在"},{"start":7607.666,"end":7634.203,"text":"這個它還是多久會更新一次呢一般你們的規劃是因為我們這個推動會大概都是一年會開兩次的會議每次在會議當中就會針對這些名錄或者是名錄的因為這個委員會就是要名錄的增加或者是排除除名都是在這個委員會裡面會去處理那你們會有一些相關的宣傳嗎因為非物質文化遺產如果沒有做任何的一些活動其實坦白來說它也很難讓人民有一些記憶"},{"start":7636.324,"end":7661.347,"text":"我們是有一些相關的宣傳計畫嗎並沒有專門針對非移的由文資局來主動做宣傳而是我們各項補助計畫出去的時候當然都希望他們能夠自己宣導可是委員的提醒我想我們也可以來努力研議一下看怎麼樣在經費中挪移去讓大家知道台灣的非移有哪些對 我還是要回到重點嘛我們的差異在這裡啦好 那再來就是說"},{"start":7662.918,"end":7682.727,"text":"因為其實我們今天做的這些所有事情都是會想要去強調我們的文化的一個差異那我希望就是說文化部接下來雖然面臨到了一些這個才化法的挑戰我們還是可能要來想辦法怎麼樣去支持那接下來當然還是要問到才化法"},{"start":7683.707,"end":7704.733,"text":"那才化法就是說因為我算了一下我們的文資預算預計將會跟114年相比新的才化法會少掉10.6億這是我目前的估算那我相信文化部應該自己也已經有個心理有底了嘛那我想知道說因為我們雖然說現在我們主管的文化資產大部分都是古物對於地方通常都是"},{"start":7705.633,"end":7711.76,"text":"就是我們相關的預算只能優先用於文化部主管的一些文化資產那對於地方的一些補助可能就會受到影響我的理解是這樣這是正確的嗎"},{"start":7716.404,"end":7743.935,"text":"是的 好 那像最近我看到兩個新聞就是都在講說是地方其實有一些還帶預算修繕的文資像是這個湖口的中嘉園環窯然後還有這個龜山這個張腦寮協和專場這兩個地方其實都地方都說要跟中央來申請經費那我想要知道說接下來我們在地方的補助上面刷財化法的影響我們大概目前的一個因應做法會是什麼呢"},{"start":7746.005,"end":7761.742,"text":"跟委員做報告因為行政院那邊還沒有做最後的確認那只是先提醒了文化部有一個準則就是我們文資法本來在補助上面來講縣市政府負擔的比例是譬如說除了台北市是50以外"},{"start":7762.182,"end":7790.133,"text":"那其他的都是文字局這邊補助的上限大概70到90不等那可是因應財化法之後我們或許這個補助的比例必須要下降就是地方的自籌管必須要拉高因為這只是一個移轉就是總經費應該還是在那裡那以前因為會撥到文字局文字局去發給然後地方只要配合10%到30不等那未來的話就變成是我們要降低因為我們的金額會被拿走了"},{"start":7790.413,"end":7812.165,"text":"所以我們降低我們的補助比例可是地方縣市政府他應該在他們拿到的透過財化法拿到的經費裡面他要自己補足拉高他的自籌款那這樣的話對於文資的工作就不會有太大的影響所以這個前提就是地方政府要能夠體認到他們透過財化法拿到的經費裡頭他依然要適度的去"},{"start":7813.306,"end":7838.315,"text":"加强我们这些地方文资的一个保存了解了解但是因为地方其实都团体都有些担心啊就是说我们虽然钱好像整包不变嘛只是从中央到了地方嘛但是地方到底会不会把钱放到文资的修缮这是大家非常担心的所以其实事实上我们现在有任何的工具可以去监督地方拿走这笔钱之后确实的如果用在这些文资的修复嘛我们有任何的工具可以来监督吗"},{"start":7839.495,"end":7865.661,"text":"目前沒有目前是沒有嘛 對不對所以我想喔因為最近大家非常關心我們的才化法拿走了這些錢到底會怎麼樣去使用那我還是要跟我們線上關心的一些公民團體來講今天這個錢呢之所以會造成我們到的地方可能沒辦法監督都還是因為國民黨跟民眾黨惡修了才化法造成了這些古物 文物 文資的一些我們的建物呢可能沒有辦法得到修繕"},{"start":7866.641,"end":7873.863,"text":"好 這個我希望大家還是要搞清楚 冤有頭債有主今天造成這個結果的就是國民黨跟民眾黨 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 次長請回等一下等到范雲委員質詢後 我們休息五分鐘好 我們有請林怡瑾"},{"start":7897.875,"end":7900.042,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長有請次長"},{"start":7909.313,"end":7929.838,"text":"我想本席今天會排這個專報那主要核心目標有三個第一個就是想要請文化部說明登錄世界遺產的相關策略跟啟程第二個也想請文化部說明的是要保存及升登世界遺產明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立"},{"start":7930.718,"end":7953.24,"text":"那第三也是要請文化部說明無論是透過修正文化資產保存法又或者啟動其他的立法機制就是說針對世界遺產顯利點本身文化部願意提供怎麼樣的國家層級的保護這是我今天的三大排這個案子的重點"},{"start":7954.301,"end":7960.405,"text":"好 那台灣不是聯合國的會員國那可是為了因應這項的問題我們多年來世界社會各界就一直在倡議說是不是透過日本等這種友好國家來進行跨國聯合生育的這種策略那就連文字局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國家根本組織這個ICOMOS"},{"start":7981.617,"end":8000.839,"text":"這個前副主席西村信夫他的說法他表示說台灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請在將台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一或是一種解套的方式"},{"start":8001.54,"end":8018.71,"text":"那西村幸福局的案例就是樂生療養院那他說 患生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗那審查委員不會因為國家的這個定位而拒絕受理我們看日本 特別是馬來西亞"},{"start":8020.653,"end":8048.396,"text":"馬來西亞在2019年曾經登入教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的"},{"start":8050.377,"end":8065.891,"text":"實際上台灣國際處境的艱難我們都很清楚那也正因為如此才更突顯這個跨國聯合生意的這個重要性那我想在此時此刻這個世界高度認同台灣那所以我們"},{"start":8067.092,"end":8084.349,"text":"並且啦 大家都同聲譴責中國惡行的這個時候我覺得我們更應該把握的這個關鍵時刻對外發生所以真的要請次長來說明一下就是說我們日後升登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何"},{"start":8086.051,"end":8105.327,"text":"首先跟委員報告,其實我第一次聽到西村幸福老師講的這個話的時候,我真的也非常興奮所以你看我們的森林鐵路可以跟日本怎麼樣聯合去做申請,我們的火車頭,這個是我們可異動物產,它是美國生產,目前是全世界只剩下那一台了,想了半天就很興奮"},{"start":8107.208,"end":8134.033,"text":"同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現它即使是聯合申請每一個申請國它依然要具有會員國或者是公約的締約組織之一才有辦法作為聯合申請那不然的話就是即使是聯合申請裡面我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭沒有辦法有獨立的說我這個位置是一個我們自己的主權申請"},{"start":8134.973,"end":8150.434,"text":"這個是同仁去了解的細節對西村老師的提醒因為他有提的案例我們也去查了有沒有別的不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請的方式得到的目前查到為止是沒有辦法"},{"start":8151.254,"end":8164.068,"text":"有一個是庫克群島可是庫克群島它本身是紐西蘭怎麼講它跟紐西蘭之間的關係紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一所以它有那個締約國它是那個公約的締約國之一"},{"start":8169.693,"end":8196.347,"text":"虽然他不是联合国的会员国可是他是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以他依然可以他就可以跟别的国家联合去申请世界遗产的所以这个部分其实同仁是有努力的在观察国际上面的用什么样的形式来申请或者是有没有什么机会有没有任何的变化我们持续的关注所以目前为止查到的是说"},{"start":8197.815,"end":8214.663,"text":"反正三種身份中你要有一個那只是現在比較麻煩的是我們三種身份都拿不到那就會除非我們要放棄掉我們台灣的一個國家的一個標示然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主體裡面"},{"start":8214.923,"end":8237.054,"text":"我想這也不是國人所樂見所以才會講說在整個策略上來講我們還是持續的讓我們的雖然我們沒有報名資格可是讓國際人知道他們來親眼看到台灣的每一項這些世界遺產這些文化資產都非常具有它的保存或者是它的"},{"start":8238.208,"end":8252.169,"text":"文化價值都有具有世界遺產這樣的一個能量我們一直跟他們說模擬考我們考得很好我考試我真的能過那只是讓委員們知道這些考生委員知道是我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已"},{"start":8253.629,"end":8267.738,"text":"因為其實像在醫療發展上就好台灣CanHelp已經是一個響徹這個國際的口號那也是全球公認的事實喔所以我們如果用WHO這個"},{"start":8269.239,"end":8280.407,"text":"就是說WHA用WHO我們用這個例子來看我們就很清楚是要即便中國一直在阻撓我們其實也在2009年被納入這個WHA的邀請對象那所以好 那我想"},{"start":8291.255,"end":8320.269,"text":"不管是今年的這個G7或者目前來講有50多個國家不管是行政立法部門啦 歐盟啦 歐洲議會或者跟台灣理念相近的一些這個駐台的機構其實都一直很具體的行動在表達對台灣的國際支持或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持所以我想如果在醫療發展上看到是衛福部跟外交部的攜手的決心"},{"start":8321.289,"end":8337.644,"text":"所以我想說在文化發展上那台灣的態度當然我想也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部的攜手所以說這部分是不是說在升登世界遺產這件事情上怎麼有效的跨部會的再去努力市長好 謝謝委員其實"},{"start":8343.789,"end":8367.737,"text":"如何跟外交部第一個我們如果要踏出國際的話跟外交部的合作真的非常非常的重要所以我們曾經也提議過就像WHA我們雖然不能夠進去開會可是就是會有很多的醫師團體或者是醫療團體到門口去拿牌子那部門委員說我也曾經外交部講說我們去那個"},{"start":8369.059,"end":8385.628,"text":"ICOMOS開會或是ICOM開會門口我們也去掛牌子那這個部分外交部有他的考量因為目前我們在國際組織上要努力的去加入他們有六個一定要維持住的好像航空警察警政這一部分"},{"start":8386.028,"end":8404.117,"text":"那文化這個能不能擠進去也納入外交部一個積極申請國際單位的這樣一個單位內這個部分外交部還有他的考量我們沒有放棄我們繼續在支持所以包括說剛剛我們在報告裡面特別提到外交部的政務次長他是第一次"},{"start":8404.657,"end":8424.426,"text":"外交部有這麼高層級的委員來參加我們的這個推動會那其實部長也李遠部長也保持非常大的一個信心跟期待我們會持續跟外交部來溝通如何發聲讓人家知道我們準備好了我們可以然後剛剛委員我這邊站一分鐘我上次去捷克的時候"},{"start":8425.106,"end":8443.248,"text":"是捷克的他跟我們講因為捷克有一個世界遺產的那個橋樑然後他就講說當時這個橋樑修復的時候是台灣台灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋樑那他就說捷克非常感謝台灣這件事情所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛"},{"start":8444.769,"end":8466.683,"text":"台灣Can Help這件事情口罩的我們那時候協助大家來提供口罩所以我們在文資修復上面我們的確有那樣的能力我們有那樣的觀念所以或許我們暫時之間雖然我們自己申請勢宜拿不到可是別的國家的勢宜如果有需要修復或保存上技術上的交流或者是提供或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做"},{"start":8468.484,"end":8482.962,"text":"那只是這個部分當然我想說我要回來跟我們文資局講說我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資如果國外有這些文資的需求的時候我們也可以提供這樣透過這樣國際的連結讓大家更努力的看到台灣"},{"start":8484.663,"end":8502.927,"text":"最後再三十秒跟次長討論的是我們現在除了這個所謂台灣世界遺產潛力點遴選跟除名的作業要點以外我想進一步透過說文資法的修正又或者是專法的訂定來進一步賦予我國這個世界遺產潛力點更高的國家層級的保護"},{"start":8508.248,"end":8525.249,"text":"本席現在手邊是有朝你一份文資法的修正案那新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章那近期就會來連署並送進委員會那本席的修正及新增條文有14條我想這是 除了更進一步喔"},{"start":8525.649,"end":8548.641,"text":"要接軌國際文化遺產保護體系那也直接賦予我國現在這個世界遺產潛力點文資法鎖定的這個最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身份那並且我也要求說未來新增這些潛力點也必須符合這些身份那之所以要做出這樣的規範第一個我想說當然要保護我們台灣的這些世界遺產的潛力點"},{"start":8549.622,"end":8573.181,"text":"第二個就是要透過要反映現行體系的矛盾以及這個潛力點保護工作的欠缺因為我們是想如果連台灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級的文資或者這個自然地景的身份那我們如何去說服國際讓我們升登世界遺產"},{"start":8574.282,"end":8601.699,"text":"那又如何要在這個法律的這個明確規範下來好好保護我們的世界遺產請你一點所以我的意思是說這樣的一個規範是必然必須要處理的那次長您怎麼看謝謝委員因為我們正在也在討論文資法的修正是那委員的這個修正的方向或者是用利專賬的方式也請委員可以提供給我們我們來一併演繹好嗎好啊OK好謝謝喔謝謝次長謝謝主席"},{"start":8604.079,"end":8613.426,"text":"好,我們現在請范雲委員好,謝謝昭緯,有請次長好,有請李次長"},{"start":8631.647,"end":8635.01,"text":"市長早我想首先要謝謝昭緯排了一個這麼非常有意義的這個世界文化遺產的這個潛力點那我覺得重新來看這個部分覺得比較遺憾的是從我剛剛聽到的就是文化部似乎不夠重視那自己在2002年沒錯吧就已經選出的18個台灣世界遺產潛力點"},{"start":8658.51,"end":8667.677,"text":"一方面除了預算太少因為剛剛有委員說能不能增加結果只有五千萬五千萬除了給現在十八個潛力點平均起來一個只有多少五千除以十八一個三百餘萬那連要做一個相關的歷史研究可能都不夠了更何況就是要更積極地做點什麼而且就態度上剛剛次長一直講說這個地方政府可以來申請"},{"start":8686.71,"end":8694.999,"text":"地方政府如果什麼都不做的話那我們好像看你們今天給的報告除了邀請一些國際專家來協助說我們如何跟世界遺產群力據說UNESCO 據說如何爭取之外沒有具體可以做的事情"},{"start":8703.408,"end":8719.02,"text":"那以我看到這上面的這個樂生療養院那剛剛朝偉也有講到其實這整個的推動過程我們看到的是青年學生的努力沒有看到文化部曾經出來為他捍衛那跟交通之間的衝突怎麼解決"},{"start":8719.901,"end":8741.142,"text":"所以我真的覺得據說我們現在做很多新興的文化鼓勵可是已經有的文化潛力點卻相當消極那這是我覺得最遺憾的部分那我希望藉著朝偉重視這個部分我以淡水紅毛城及其周遭歷史建築是你們今天名列第二的"},{"start":8741.562,"end":8761.802,"text":"因為它涉及到剛剛張雅玲委員講說我們這個講出來會讓大家看到台灣跟中國不一樣台灣不是中國的一部分那如果自然景觀很難的話其實人文社會是最有意義的不管是原住民金馬戰地或者像淡水這個它就展現了我們的殖民歷史"},{"start":8763.563,"end":8782.532,"text":"西方文化進入台灣是非常早的又具有戰略位置裡面的城堡包含人文藝術自然景觀我們的世界級畫家陳承波多次以淡水名畫這部分就是紅毛城及其旁邊的歷史建築"},{"start":8784.873,"end":8788.318,"text":"你看2020年我當時質詢文化部鄭麗君前部長的時候就已經提到她當時面臨著文化保存跟輕軌開發的衝突2021年淡水的歷史文史專家請我一起出來呼籲反對"},{"start":8803.777,"end":8826.306,"text":"輕軌進入破壞這整個相關的水岸跟歷史建築老街等那很遺憾的據說新北市政府還是執意要這樣子開發所以輕軌就是目前在規劃中非常多淡水的文史工作者擔心怕周遭的生態被破壞了從水岸到相關的交通"},{"start":8826.846,"end":8841.576,"text":"所以我以這個為例顯現遺產起立地也因為我們過於消極整個周遭的環境很可能因為地方政府不夠重視面臨破壞的危機所以文化部如何應對以輕軌對淡水紅毛城這個開發案"},{"start":8844.378,"end":8847.642,"text":"周圍的生態環境的影響這是個案那整體上我覺得就通案上我們有18個已經選出來景點在新增加之前他目前如果地方政府過於消極的話文化部似乎就放任這些潛力點"},{"start":8863.38,"end":8883.633,"text":"繼續沒有做好的維護我以我們的台灣的性別平權我們永遠在聯合國裡面進不去可是我們自己就以聯合國的標準自我努力的話別人會幫我們宣傳如果我們現在結合UNESCO就是說本級那最有的就是觀光跟歷史文化的價值我們都做不好的話"},{"start":8884.474,"end":8899.2,"text":"那別人也不會看到它的價值啊這個文化部是不是可以因為時間的緣故還有一題是不是可以在兩個月內給我一個書面報告如何改善好不好從個案到通案可是跟委員稍等一下"},{"start":8900.24,"end":8906.564,"text":"紅毛城這個案例上來講我們在去年7月份的時候有正式的韓赴交通部跟國發會我們要求這個輕軌案輕軌運輸計畫它的規劃設計相關書圖還有文化資產的監測計畫都必須要送文化部來審查所以我們還有這個機制可以去那問題是"},{"start":8919.591,"end":8946.412,"text":"她這整個的從開發當時交通部核准的時候文化部根本就好像是就是說不相干的一個第三者到現在一定要開發了你當然做這個部分是洋網補勞但是我還是覺得太消極了好不好一個韓式真的還是太消極了如果能夠積極邀請地方文史工作者的話我覺得才會有更積極的效果那這相關的報告是不是也可以給我辦公室一個好不好"},{"start":8947.692,"end":8968.384,"text":"那再來就是也是一題我追蹤過的題目就是關於狼屍透過課台外包節目接觸學生那今年三月我跟郭益勤委員我們就開記者會揭露吸取學生的一個重大性暴力事件的狼屍透過課台節目學校都解聘了還繼續接觸學生"},{"start":8969.665,"end":8988.096,"text":"柯台當時居然在記者會上說劉導演沒有直接把重要的工作委請給理師也沒有帶大隊的人到理師家後來謝謝公視有去做調查證明團隊導演助理柯台口徑一致"},{"start":8988.916,"end":9016.314,"text":"不知道是说谎还是被蒙蔽现在的调查报告已经出来就是完全当时课台只采取黎原的说法不仅不采认学生的说法没有问过学生甚至连我们两位立委都觉得我们好像是听了片面之词我想问的是为什么课台可以完全没有调查就下定论"},{"start":9017.649,"end":9019.703,"text":"那個次長不知道有沒有關心這個案子"},{"start":9020.768,"end":9048.156,"text":"为什么课台可以这么做当然课台他实在是太大意了太大意了所以针对这个事项其实我想应该是上礼拜课台有重新发了一个声明去谴责这件事情课台谴责别人那他们也自己做了处分课台没有责任吗他们也做了处分包括他们的戏曲组长还有节目部的经理都有遭到申诫或者是口头警告这样的一个处分所以就是课台都是谴责别人"},{"start":9049.916,"end":9074.383,"text":"就是相關的人也有自己有處分那次長你覺得課台這樣子的一個救責方式你滿意嗎這個事情我很難還是尊重由公視他們來處理那可是我想文化部能夠努力的就是再去提醒我們所有的相關單位在性品這件事情上在對於有這樣"},{"start":9076.434,"end":9085.256,"text":"很明確的一個犯罪的前提之下如何防範不要讓這一些性犯罪者再去接觸我們的尤其是學生我真的覺得整個課台性平意識不足所以等到我們開記者會的時候他在我們邀請他還以為會有個正面的結果當場還可以講出那樣子的話我們非常的驚嚇所以我希望次長再監督課台的究責夠不夠好嗎不能都說是別人的錯"},{"start":9105.62,"end":9120.974,"text":"自己不夠警覺 從台長到相關的人我覺得都是問題好不好這次次長可以答應喔對我們在跟客台跟公視這邊來討論他們的這個究責的部分是足夠那我想我最後簡單把就是這兩個"},{"start":9122.115,"end":9149.59,"text":"這裡面我們看到一個問題就是從頭到尾大家都在包庇這個重大一對多的性別暴力的狼屍案而且都被調查都已經被解聘的教授了那我覺得文化部我們還是應該要對他要求更高應該更高規格重視性暴力防治杜絕我們藝文界的性暴力不能夠讓青年學子當場到狼屍家才驚覺的自己沒有被保護"},{"start":9150.31,"end":9176.418,"text":"所以我提了兩個建議第一個這次發現切結書就是這個劇團只要跟他說我是在沒有領你們補助的活動邀郎師就OK所以是不是能以切結書杜絕重大性暴力加害者那增訂違約要求長的機制這是我的第一個建議第二個建議那所有的拿文化不自由的團體他有沒有做好性暴力防治應該成為審理跟評估的指標"},{"start":9180.059,"end":9197.224,"text":"譬如說如果有個人或團隊平凡跟重大確定的性暴力加害人合作不是應該扣分嗎不是說他那個單項活動沒有領你們的補助就OK那這部分文化部是不是次長認同我這兩項建議的策略嗎"},{"start":9199.364,"end":9215.792,"text":"當然跟表示認同我們還是要積極的努力在合法在法令允許的範圍內怎麼樣去加注然後要求提醒法律有法律的給受害人的正義今天是你的資源補助不是非給不可所以這完全在你們的行政權範圍就是文字上面"},{"start":9217.233,"end":9240.667,"text":"看怎麼樣 我剛剛講文字上面的弱字我們需要合法我們這個是亡羊補牢啦不知道大家追了這麼久的案子還可以在文化部下面就是說課台有這種大漏洞那文化部多久可以把這兩項建議策略如何納入你們的既有的規範可以給本席報告兩個月齁 那一起加油齁好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝范雲委員次長請回那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9573.783,"end":9580.347,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會我們接下來請有點好久不見 但很想念的林佩祥委員好 朱熹有請林部長 新理事長好 有請理事長委員早"},{"start":9591.718,"end":9620.225,"text":"好 理事長首先本席要在這邊特別感謝理事長在上禮拜一的時候到了基隆來參觀來這邊考察有關這個和平島的那個西班牙古蹟的事情那未來在於這個西班牙古蹟基隆四百年的案子裡面是站很重要的一塊那這邊特地感謝李部長特地來基隆一趟也瞭解了說基隆這個和平島的西班牙古蹟未來的走向然後也是確認說未來會部裡面會繼續大力支持我們這一塊"},{"start":9621.645,"end":9650.352,"text":"而今天我們講到這個UNESCO的事情那我自己個人以前在15年前曾經在外交部任職的時候去過波蘭也就是波蘭的時候去過看過兩個UNESCO看過兩個這個世界遺跡一個是這個奧斯維辛的這個集中營另外一個是他們的一個記憶力很深刻是一個地下的鹽礦所做出來的教堂"},{"start":9651.132,"end":9676.882,"text":"那他們這個教堂裡面甚至可以大道說我記得沒錯的話當時我在那邊有聽了一場交響樂而且在那邊有等於是一個國賓上面的一個款待所以我會認為說我們未來如果我們這個所謂的世界遺產的這個申請我們可以朝那個方向讓整個我們台灣的這世界遺產讓全世界都看到不過"},{"start":9677.942,"end":9696.007,"text":"中間來講我記得以前在清華大學任教的時候曾經有一句話我記得好像是黃義農院士有提出一個想法就是所謂的文化是一群人的共同記憶那這一點來講我認為跟我們現在要做的事情應該有些在價值上的一致"},{"start":9699.948,"end":9712.797,"text":"我們臺灣雖然擁有豐富跟集聚世界遺產的自然文化跟資產但是我們現在不是聯合國的議員所以我們在申請上面一向都遇到一些狀況可是我也在這邊要提醒說我們的潛力點第一個就是說"},{"start":9717.343,"end":9744.483,"text":"像是波蘭因為他們過去的地理跟歷史的原因所以他們有許多的已經成功申請成為世界遺產的一些景點那未來的時候那是不是省部裡面也可以好好去考慮說不是單純是把這個文化價值把它體現出來而是用故事甚至用觀光的方式繼續去把這個潛力點提早讓世界上的人知道"},{"start":9745.063,"end":9761.253,"text":"因為像是奧西維茲這個集中營當然裡面記載的是二次世界大戰的慘狀跟包括納粹當初怎麼樣對待猶太人很多不人道的作風裡面的細節我心生看到我就不想再提那個慘狀"},{"start":9762.233,"end":9785.171,"text":"但是另外一個像是說我剛剛提到他們的地下鹽礦裡面甚至有一個教堂在裡面而且足夠大到說裡面可以用交響樂跟一些餐敘的方式來去讓各國的嘉賓讓各國的旅遊觀光人口願意進來這邊來去一方面是了解這天然的美景另外一方面也是說製造一個差不多我記得沒錯"},{"start":9786.051,"end":9814.284,"text":"奧西維茲那次的集中營整個故事的講解跟他們所有的整個side scene就是整個景點的觀光有差不多要到150分鐘以上那同樣的在如果說我們在裡面聽一場交響樂而且在裡面參觀了整個所謂的這個地下鹽礦的教堂的話我記得也是差不多兩個多小時是不是可以請部裡面在未來這些潛力點推動的時候也把觀光的元素放進去"},{"start":9814.884,"end":9825.344,"text":"因為我會認為沒有行銷的話對於說整個故事的詮釋對於說這個實質上的應用我會覺得很可惜那不知道李市長是不是認同我現在這樣講的想法"},{"start":9826.938,"end":9852.851,"text":"真的非常謝謝委員的提醒跟建議我想這是一個非常好的方向怎麼樣在我們能夠拿到考試資格之前我們先把我們這個準備那準備的方式不是只有做一個很硬式的文本而是能夠從用故事的敘述然後先用觀光的方式讓更多人能夠理解到我們有這麼樣的一個珍貴的文化資產然後再來去講我們的硬式資格這個部分我們會努力"},{"start":9853.331,"end":9867.307,"text":"好 謝謝理事長那第二點本期想特地提醒就是說我記得看到好像有18個潛力點那18個潛力點我會認為如果真的我們要推進讓全世界知道甚至盡快的進入世界遺產"},{"start":9868.268,"end":9894.613,"text":"中的景點的話是不是我們可以集中活力或集中資源來去推廣特技幾個景點像是說我當然部裡面有當然有各方面的考量可是如果一同一時間直接18個點一起推進去的話我認為讓這個聯合國他們的系統能夠很快來審查甚至說他讓這個景點有名到說全世界的人都覺得台灣這個景點是非常值得我們去我們去看的"},{"start":9894.833,"end":9912.74,"text":"是非常值得紀念而且有價值那變成是世界上獲不可缺的一點那是不是可以請部裡面針對未來這18個景點是不是能夠想辦法去集中集中到說假設4個到3個那這樣去推廣的時候這樣去推進的時候我會認為是不是比較有比較有可行性呢"},{"start":9914.248,"end":9941.983,"text":"真的謝謝委員我們推動委員會的委員的想法跟林委員你一樣所以我們其實在前兩年的推動會裡面有討論出說就是要集中火力那目前為止我們是先集中火力在阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀這個案子那剛剛我們那個也有其他委員提醒我們說因為只有一個案因為阿里山鐵路它其實它非常有特殊性可是它的維持也非常非常的困難"},{"start":9942.603,"end":9958.914,"text":"所以颱風來他可能就斷線所以有時候如果我們邀請一些國外的具有這些世界遺產審查資格的這些委員們來台灣看的時候他不一定能夠看到阿里山所以我們的確也可能就是會選二到三個備選的名單這樣成為一個領先群我們比較"},{"start":9963.397,"end":9980.457,"text":"把我們的資源集中活力在三到四個潛力點上面去做好他們的準備工作跟對外宣揚的工作這個部分我們正在朝這方向來努力好 謝謝理事長因為我認為說這個資源的集中能夠把這景點做出來這是很重要的一塊"},{"start":9981.098,"end":10010.303,"text":"那另外一方面就是當然是正面來講就支援其中到兩到三個可是我們現在18個景點可能未來會更多但是如果說短期之間無法讓它在國際之間能夠發光能夠曝光度能夠提高而且讓它發光發熱的話我也想請教說我們的文化部有沒有所謂的就是不是說現在不是說就永遠不推而是說暫時性的退場機制是不是我們有考慮到這一點也就是說重點集中在某些地方"},{"start":10010.663,"end":10022.911,"text":"但是有些地方目前甚至說經費太過大而這個價值或者說整個景點吸引度不夠的時候是不是可以開始考慮說集中火力而且避免浪費資源呢"},{"start":10024.966,"end":10042.069,"text":"所以我們所擬定的是一個叫做臺灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點我們的確有想到說如果有一些地方他可能在保存上面地方政府或是主管機關不夠積極的時候或許我們可以放棄"},{"start":10042.569,"end":10066.383,"text":"可是目前為止我們每一次在推動委員會在討論這目前的18個潛力點都覺得還是有可以努力的地方那主管機關也還在努力中所以我們目前並我們有這樣的要點只是還沒有選出來因為他還是要透過這些委員們共同決定說要做除名了我們才會有一個議法的程序"},{"start":10067.025,"end":10087.982,"text":"好 謝謝市長那主要今天本期的質詢主要針對三點就第一個我們應該要我們應該試著要把觀光的元素放進去讓更多人知道這樣子的話價值會提高那第二個來講也是很簡單的就是說集中火力 集中資源把一件事與其說什麼都做倒不如把一兩件事做好那第三點當然是可能有必要當然每一個"},{"start":10088.843,"end":10110.018,"text":"列為現在的推動點列為現在的潛力點都是很珍貴的存在但是或許在這個時候在這個增多增多周少的情況之下或許我們可以先考慮一下暫時哪些先不要推或許對於說未來整個整個計畫推動會有更好的更好的效果謝謝委員的提醒跟建議我們會照這個方向來處理好謝謝次長好謝謝林沛翔委員次長請回"},{"start":10119.298,"end":10123.783,"text":"那我們現在就先來處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案 記憶案請宣讀"},{"start":10126.84,"end":10154.695,"text":"建議我國工藝技術發展迅速並且在地工藝、原民工藝及生活工藝等繼續融入民眾生活也因重視台灣工藝發展文化部將台灣工藝之父鹽水龍創意之南投縣工藝研究班改制為國立台灣工藝研究發展中心下稱工藝中心工藝中心過去除培育多位國保及工藝大師亦積極推動台灣工藝文化產業發展"},{"start":10156.26,"end":10172.909,"text":"致力於培育台灣工藝記憶人才以推動弱勢工藝生活美學顯現文化部以及民間工藝人才對於台灣工藝記憶日漸重視2025年工藝中心舉辦台灣工藝祭等活動"},{"start":10173.749,"end":10190.56,"text":"文化部理演部長致詞時表示台灣終將成為公益島而公益可讓人傳遞感情勞動與生活更指出剛上任時參加鹿港魯班公演對於各式公益品更是感動不已顯示公益就在生活之中"},{"start":10191.3,"end":10211.686,"text":"也最能讓人喚醒生活熱情文化部應積極向我國民眾推廣台灣優秀公益技藝並落實公益生活原此 建請文化部評估將6月5日公益日設為台灣公益節將台灣公益節提升至國家紀念日及節日層級以表文化部對於我國公益之重視"},{"start":10212.786,"end":10228.789,"text":"並延續配合台灣公益節舉辦公益週及公益月等相關紀念活動請文化部於兩個月內提出具體做法以為我國公益記憶精神之傳承提案人陳秀寶、郭益晴、林怡謹、范雲宣讀完畢"},{"start":10237.104,"end":10256.708,"text":"今天是6月5號我先在這邊祝福各位公益師公益節快樂其實公益是一個很沉默的當沒有作品呈現的時候我們都感受不到說他們在作品後面默默的付出那一件很精彩絕艷的讓大家感動的作品"},{"start":10257.328,"end":10277.839,"text":"是公益人多少时日他们不只从学艺从创作都是他们对这个公益的热爱及坚持那我在这边提案是希望说我们呼应今天6月5号是国际永续议题的世界环境日那也寓意就是说我们一起关注公益跟自然共生的这个永续精神"},{"start":10278.539,"end":10294.571,"text":"希望说公益日不只是公益人的公益日也是我们一起支持肯定公益师的公益节能够提升到国定节日的层级我们一起支持公益也肯定公益人的付出以上"},{"start":10296.141,"end":10317.853,"text":"好 那次長有沒有補充的真的謝謝委員的提醒啦我想照顧公益師然後讓公益師在社會上有地位讓大家意識到公益是我們生活的一部分這是文化部非常積極努力也是我們應該做的事情所以對於這個案子我們就遵照辦理好 那這樣子我們這個案子就照案通過"},{"start":10320.915,"end":10322.036,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們次長好 有請李次長"},{"start":10351.923,"end":10374.74,"text":"委員長市長好市長首先要感謝文化部那過去對於這個我們屏東的文化資產的一個保存給予我們屏東縣很大的一個支持所以包含我們的勝利新村也好現在平年一九三六現在變成全國知名的一個官方的一個點也是一個文化保存的一個典範但是今天還是有幾個問題還是要繼續請文化部來支持"},{"start":10378.143,"end":10403.357,"text":"那我想今年我們恆春建成150週年那誠如這個次長從這個照片上看到的我們這個南門我們今年也得到文化部的支持我們今年會有增加一個光雕秀的一個演出那這個光雕秀的演出也帶動了一個整個恆春的觀光的一個發展跟一個人潮那但是現在我知道我們文化部現在以"},{"start":10403.937,"end":10432.424,"text":"也有在進行我們一個恆春古城的一個修復計畫那恆春古城是我們目前全台唯一有四個城門完整保存的一個國定古蹟那我們文化部啟動了這個恆春古城保存活化的一個專案計畫那地方對於這個整體的進度也好預算的執行也好還有我們中央跟地方一個協力的模式還是有一些的期待那我想這部分次長知道這個案子的進度嗎"},{"start":10434.851,"end":10458.88,"text":"我了解這個案子那我想因為這也由文資局代主政直接來執行這個修復保存計畫目前進度上應該是還在進化中進度中在執行中並沒有沒有嚴重的延遲因為剛剛我知道這個案子也我們也送到工程會在審查當中我剛剛也有特別拜託我們的主委我們一起共同來努力因為這個"},{"start":10460.56,"end":10474.968,"text":"我知道我們目前我們大概規劃上面因為有考慮到一些私有土地還有一個施工的問題我們要規劃一個分段分期進行的一個模式但是次長我比較擔心這個恆春古城如果這樣分段進行"},{"start":10476.028,"end":10496.565,"text":"會把這個工企拉得很長而且整個這個尤其它又靠近我們整個橫村比較市中心的一個聚落我擔心會變成一個工地化的一個現象那長期的這個圍裏圍起來之後也不利於一個觀光發展跟交通的一個動線那這部分有沒有辦法做一個比較有效的一個整合能夠一次到位一次施工"},{"start":10500.607,"end":10525.078,"text":"當然謝謝委員的提醒對於做工程的來講我們都希望最好是一次到位我整個封起來一次施工會比較單純可是這個地方上有地方的考量他們因為原本像它西門都還是維持這個交通動線所以我們現在會盡量去做到分區那雖然是用分區分段來執行可是對於交通的影響或者是對周遭生活的影響我們會努力的降到最低"},{"start":10526.079,"end":10547.302,"text":"這個一定要列入評估不能造成這樣一個交通的黑暗期尤其我覺得有一些地段的部分有些公法的試作上面也必須考慮到這個整體的一個我們要保存的一個美意不要太多的人為化的一個過程裡面把那個古城的味道不見了也不好啦"},{"start":10548.57,"end":10575.076,"text":"這個我們會小心不會造成這樣的現象是那尤其我想過去我們期待的這個一個整個景觀的一個優化跟人情的動線我想我們應該要求要同步來進行那尤其是我們景林的這個一個觀光的一個熱帶包含我們北門廣場還有西門周邊的一個步道東門的入口一向我想這部分應該是優先來做處理把那個工序稍微調整一下"},{"start":10576.016,"end":10594.636,"text":"這部分應該是來做 趕快做一個規劃進行這部分我們會依照委員的建議來做一個調整最近我也會找時間約你們跟約工程會因為我知道你們七月份就要開始去做一些的進度一個採購的案子我想在採購之前我們還是要把整體的狀況趕快做一個討論"},{"start":10597.519,"end":10621.019,"text":"那我想因為我前陣子我們的教育委員會我們有到屏東來考察那也特別感謝我們林怡景召委還有吳立華委員我想我們屏東橫村有發現了這個第一具全長超過15公尺的鯨魚化石那目前放在我們的科博館裡面那我們在上次考察我們有特別期待未來"},{"start":10621.84,"end":10642.208,"text":"在恆春能夠建立一個地質資源館或是透過文化部我們把國立史前文化博物館能夠來增設一個鵝卵筆的分館我們整合科博館跟海神館的資源打造一個具有展示研究教育跟觀光功能的一個基地我想這個部分次長能夠支持這個案子嗎"},{"start":10644.312,"end":10669.02,"text":"不好意思因為我今天第一次知道這個案子這個提議我想我們會去部裡面會跟我們的文資司博物館的管理單位來做演繹我想這個要加快進行尤其這幾年整個恆春半島的觀光只限下滑我們也期待能夠有新的一個教育文化跟一個觀光景點的一個設施能夠帶動我們地方的觀光發展那最後我想"},{"start":10669.74,"end":10692.086,"text":"我們除了這個要做一個硬體的建設那最重要的是我們也發現了目前這個化石的部分也暴露了我們台灣在化石保護上面的一個法制的一個空白化的一個狀況我們目前沒有一個化石的一個專法所以造成這個不管是文資保存法自然資源法還有國有財產法都沒辦法保護這些化石的資產造成"},{"start":10693.286,"end":10702.517,"text":"挖到的化石沒有人管或是被蓄意迫害沒有法則甚至我們政府對這樣的一個保存有出現一個管理上的一些狀況那我想我們也會趕快著手來進行這個專法的一個討論跟規劃那在這邊我想也再特別感謝我們這個"},{"start":10710.627,"end":10727.468,"text":"林秦召委還有我們吳立委員希望未來我們趕快把這個專法訂定完之後然後趕快也把我們的這個展示館能夠開起來我想這就是對我們這個屏東縣是一個大事情我們都期待這個往這個正向的方向來努力也請文化部給我們大力的支持"},{"start":10728.569,"end":10744.16,"text":"我想這一定要跨部會的一個協調跟努力因為如果挖出來的化石是屬於人類生活遺跡的話這個會是在我們文資法文化警官保護的裡面的範疇我們的史前博物館也可以介入那如果是純粹是生物的"},{"start":10744.6,"end":10763.96,"text":"就是像鯨魚這樣子它其實比較可能是就是剛剛講的柯博館或是海生館他們這個這是教育部的業館範圍那我想兩個部會怎麼樣努力來合作對於這樣子的一個挖出來的化石能夠給予保存然後甚至後面的展示計畫這個我們一起來努力好嗎就我們私下了解那個地理下"},{"start":10764.941,"end":10775.864,"text":"至少還有好幾隻鯨魚的化石在裡面所以這個是很重要的一個資產我們大家一起來努力好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝徐富奎委員好 次長請回我們接下來請伍麗華委員謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":10794.885,"end":10813.815,"text":"市長好我們的世界遺產的潛力點目前是有18個嘛那如果說18個當中挑個兩個市長您覺得哪兩個最有機會去升登參與這個世界遺產的評選"},{"start":10816.36,"end":10829.654,"text":"您個人我個人不敢挑只是我們推動會裡面的委員們曾經討論過這個議題目前大家是希望先推阿里山的林業暨鐵道文化景觀理由是"},{"start":10831.616,"end":10858.125,"text":"理由啊那當然一方面是高山鐵路這個是它有一個世界的共通性那可是這個共通性因為世界的這個高山鐵路也幾乎都在沒落的需要保存的地體所以這還有一個國際連結的部分那我們阿里山的鐵路一方面它的施工的工法跟它使用的火車頭目前來講都已經是在世界保存上是剩下唯一的一個所以我們認為那個"},{"start":10859.705,"end":10880.985,"text":"我們也邀集了一些國外的委員包括UNESCO的專門負責世界遺產的我們請他私底下來看過我們所有的案子之後其實都是建議說可能先以阿里山這個作為推動的主要目標可是我們其他的潛力點並沒有放棄都還是做基礎工作都還是一直在持續努力的好"},{"start":10881.545,"end":10897.391,"text":"那我想再請教次長就是如果我們來看全世界各地的世界遺產就是最容易出現在你腦海中的會是哪一個或者你去過哪裡又或者你最嚮往去哪裡"},{"start":10899.021,"end":10920.52,"text":"當然比較知道這個吳哥窟嘛然後又或者是金字塔這一些就是在觀光上面它其實是一個非常有名的一個世界遺產的距離那也就是說如果我們能夠爭取到有所謂的世界遺產其實對我們的整個觀光也是有很大的一個幫助那我請次長您來看一下這顆石頭您有沒有看過"},{"start":10928.488,"end":10932.712,"text":"這是泰雅族的SvayamSvayam就是公認泰雅民族的起源地"},{"start":10945.066,"end":10960.548,"text":"這很特別喔因為泰雅族就是根據研究他至少在這個地方起源是六千年前這是共同的歷史記憶而且更特別的是目前泰雅族分散在"},{"start":10961.189,"end":10977.46,"text":"台灣我們七個縣市但是他們就是公認共同的起源地就是這個地方這個跟我們一般的其他族群以我們排灣魯凱族來講可能隔壁的部落我們的起源神話就不一樣"},{"start":10978.407,"end":11000.859,"text":"但是泰雅族分散在七個縣市卻有共同的一個起源地我覺得這個很不容易那我也曾經很關心這個案子在五年前我也特別跟文資局那個地方就是有幫忙他們去申請泰雅族的遷徙路徑再造歷史場域計畫"},{"start":11001.98,"end":11030.021,"text":"還有泰雅起源地劑但是說實在申請這些都我感受到地方感受到有一些些的困擾就是大家很難理解就是他就覺得他就一顆石頭然後跟泰雅自己族人原住民自己的感受完全不一樣那很高興的就是好不容易爭取了十多年終於在今年的年初"},{"start":11031.209,"end":11056.416,"text":"一月他已經申請到國家重要文資的一個身份那我們也會很希望說像這樣的一個有六千年歷史然後大家認為這個就是我們的起源地發散地而且呢他也正好位在台灣的整個心臟所以這個是一個如果說我們要拿來論述做文本"},{"start":11057.554,"end":11083.142,"text":"它其實是一個很棒的一個論述很棒的一個文本但是我會提到這個的原因是因為我覺得即便我們覺得多珍貴可能跟我們所制定的這些規範法律其實蠻辛苦的要爭取經費蠻辛苦的那我知道的是台灣世界遺產潛力點的遴選及除名作業要點"},{"start":11084.878,"end":11100.707,"text":"有很重要的就是提到管理 維護 監測 防救這也是各國世界遺產它面臨的一個保存危機那在這個地方我就很想要講的就是我們的這個保存"},{"start":11101.926,"end":11129.681,"text":"很重要那以我們目前這18處的潛力點我看到第17個第18個以排灣族盧凱族的石板屋來講屏東縣政府的提案跟台東縣政府的蘭嶼聚落與自然景觀那會提到說石板屋文本篆理的進度完成這個先期調研那蘭嶼的是文本篆理進度是已完成"},{"start":11130.711,"end":11154.834,"text":"那其實這個部分我們來看一下因為我也很關心舉個例子像我們的這個屏東縣政府的排灣族及盧凱族的石板屋聚落那我之前也希望說他能夠有一個用文資局這邊的保存維護計畫像我們看一下老七家以這個老七家來講他在2022年他有發生火災"},{"start":11156.315,"end":11180.125,"text":"那很高興有申請到一筆經費2023年的7月就修復然後呢2024年5月又申請到兩棟的一個搶修加固那實際上老七家石板屋或者是舊排灣石板屋它是一個很漂亮的一個聚落都還看得到那些石板屋如果要加那些斷元"},{"start":11180.765,"end":11186.547,"text":"蠶幣的 像那些老的 舊的 萊裔的舊石板屋群其實我們可以建構一個南部山區可以去恢復一個非常美麗的很多的石板屋聚落但是很辛苦的就是我們要透過重重的關卡什麼取得文資身份啊 要加什麼計畫但實際上這一些 你看這個是目前我們生活的部落"},{"start":11208.015,"end":11225.979,"text":"原本他可能在二三十年前還在部落當中的這些石板屋可是他也已經清皮毀壞那我們也不懂說還要按照國家的規矩去申請文資才能夠有修復的錢有的沒的其實蠻辛苦的我想在這個地方先請教一下次長我講這樣的時候您有什麼樣的想法可以去搶救這一些東西"},{"start":11236.296,"end":11257.231,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想怎麼樣搶救這個部落裡頭的包括鮮明的智慧這是文化遺產這件事情這是很美麗的遺產但是很辛苦每次一想到那些計畫 核銷還要先申請文資身份這樣那樣很辛苦我們明明就是在跟時間賽跑"},{"start":11258.712,"end":11272.118,"text":"是 我想文化部文資局能做的事情還是盡量我們在現有法院因為每一筆預算的支出都必須要有法源也有根據 也有計劃書那當然我們希望但是我們可以把規則弄得簡單一點快速一點吧怎麼樣更快速"},{"start":11275.76,"end":11291.747,"text":"所以我想這件事情如何讓申請的程序更簡化或是用實刊來代替文字用這些事情來怎麼取代我們來努力演繹一下這很多都是千年古城都非常的美麗在我看來非常具有潛力"},{"start":11292.907,"end":11310.544,"text":"好 那我再舉一個例子 你們的第18項 蘭嶼那蘭嶼呢 你們有提到了 就是平板舟 然後他們的地下屋好 那我們來看一下齁 那個蘭嶼巴丹島的航行計畫齁今年秋天要開始 次長你有聽說過這個計畫嗎"},{"start":11315.095,"end":11328.491,"text":"文總有補助文化總會有補助那園民會也有補助那這個他們走的這個航道您看到的這個箭頭雙箭頭他就是三百年"},{"start":11329.332,"end":11355.244,"text":"的一個海洋谷 他們已經有300年這是一個海洋谷到300年已經沒有航行了那這一次是恢復首航用拼板舟 然後60個人一班次20個人 三班次這樣子要航行到三天的時間 三天兩夜要從蘭嶼要航行到巴丹島那這是300年的一個首航"},{"start":11356.485,"end":11383.275,"text":"他們目前還有百分之六十的語言可以相通但是他們巴丹島的地下屋啊已經消失兩百年因為被西班牙統治過殖民過所以呢蘭嶼還有地下屋也需要搶救那我是要這樣子說關於這個蘭嶼巴丹島的航行計畫我們來看一下絲綢之路已經是世界遺產"},{"start":11385.195,"end":11400.476,"text":"鄭和下西洋 泉州到南洋的海上思路也準備申請世界遺產我就不曉得說 我們文化部有沒有這個感動蘭嶼 巴丹島 這個海洋古道有沒有計畫要來申請啊"},{"start":11404.602,"end":11422.381,"text":"跟委員說明一下的確我就是透過文化總會來跟我們提這個案子那文化總會當時希望文化部能夠協助的就是說如果這一條行我們怎麼樣給予一些宣傳讓大家知道有要做這樣子一件偉大的事情那就是"},{"start":11422.981,"end":11446.933,"text":"不巧的今年度文化部的所有文化宣傳行銷費用被刪到零所以在這一塊目前為止我們沒有辦法協助文化總會去做這件事情可是剛剛以委員跟我們的一個建議的說明我發現說如果這一條古道他或許我們在文資的身份上我們來考慮用什麼方法讓他可以在文資上面獲得一定的"},{"start":11448.294,"end":11451.077,"text":"那我想你們也有講這個遺產力的計畫就是建制跨國合作的機制是很重要的所以我特別就是希望說請文資局能夠針對世界遺產潛力點的這些現況整合盤點那加速我們講的這些很重要的它的文本的一個篆擬"},{"start":11470.354,"end":11475.279,"text":"然後強化更重要的是他的保存維護計畫希望可以更簡便更快速不要讓大家覺得要等很久很複雜那也希望對於申請這種世界遺產國際合作的可能也能夠積極的來協助辦理"},{"start":11488.651,"end":11504.465,"text":"那次長我提出這樣的訴求那希望呢我們能夠很積極的態度來協助好嗎好謝謝委員那只是說報告的部分我們一定會做好時間能不能稍微給多一點的時間給兩個月好嗎OK好謝謝次長謝謝您謝謝局長謝謝好謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員次長請回我們接下來請問美玲委員"},{"start":11518.324,"end":11521.018,"text":"好 謝謝莊委 有請次長好 有請理事長"},{"start":11529.731,"end":11548.024,"text":"我想我們的歷史建物古蹟遺址等文化資產都具有公共財的一個屬性是台灣所有人民共同的瑰寶我相信你認同嘛那我們在前年我們看到文資法的修正我們配合大法官813號解釋歷史建築土地為第三人所有"},{"start":11548.704,"end":11572.562,"text":"為以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償不符憲法第15條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲所以本院修法保障歷史建築及紀念建築座落土地的所有權人得申請容積以轉及享有免徵地價稅房屋稅的優惠我想這個次長都知道嘛 對嗎 好"},{"start":11573.944,"end":11585.022,"text":"但是同樣在文化資產的保存針對開發單位不管是公司部門在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候您知道清楚是怎麼樣處理嗎"},{"start":11590.481,"end":11609.977,"text":"所以處理的流程程序您很清楚對嗎好那我們就繼續來討論根據文化資產保存法第57條第二款規定如果營建工程或者是開發行為發現考古遺址時就必須要停止工程並且要通報我們地方的主管機關"},{"start":11611.158,"end":11628.482,"text":"那主管機關就應該要立即的進行調查跟審議而且要採取相關的措施同時在完成審議之前開發單位是不得復工的這也沒有錯 對嗎好 那我們審議其實需要有的時候需要蠻長一段時間的那不管是公司部門的開發計畫開發單位都要去承擔這個停工的相關成本"},{"start":11633.763,"end":11658.515,"text":"那我想請教一下次長我們目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話我們國家是不是有任何的補償相關措施報告委員 目前沒有好 目前沒有但是依照現行法規來看如果開發單位挖到了遺址不僅他必須要獨自去承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外"},{"start":11659.315,"end":11679.631,"text":"如果他現在要繼續開發復工還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫那麼再依照審議的面積來先行視覺還有保存那這當中其實除了耗費很多時間相關的成本之外還有很多的費用而這一切都必須由開發單位來自行承擔這些您都知道嗎"},{"start":11681.301,"end":11698.053,"text":"對 目前的狀況是這樣子是這樣 所以您清楚嗎其實我們的主要目的是希望說我了解 我們繼續往下看所以台積電其實在這個南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝結果挖到遺址 它必須停工"},{"start":11699.913,"end":11726.4,"text":"這個應該這個次長也曉得那在本席的選區裡面桃園捷運綠線在109年的時候在G07站也挖到了考古遺址所以呢也造成了停工然後延宕了一個工程的進度其實還蠻嚴重的那直到上一週文資的審查才完成那今年我們看到在桃園一樣我們桃園這個台鐵新站桃園新站好不容易才動工馬上又挖到了考古遺址"},{"start":11727.7,"end":11747.296,"text":"那其中這個保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資來承擔的但是這樣的問題其實不斷在發生除了剛剛本席舉的三個例子之外我們其實很難保未來其實在相關的重大的這些公司的這些建設重大的國家建設都會發生這樣的一個問題所以我想今天拿出來討論我們必須要提到說"},{"start":11748.918,"end":11765.735,"text":"這個相關的這些考古遺址我們剛剛有提到是全民的公共財而且我們要知道如果說剛好沒有這個工程沒有開發單位的開發挖掘恐怕這些文物跟遺址會沒有重建天子的一天所以我想其實政府要去想一想就是說"},{"start":11767.056,"end":11775.744,"text":"發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們是不是應該有一些相關的這些補償的一個方式有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做會比較好因為這個問題它會一直都存在那我們要看如果說開發的行為挖到了這個寶可是它沒有通寶"},{"start":11781.67,"end":11802.423,"text":"甚至於在我們不知道或者知道的情況之下文化資產去受損了那其實他也要處罰那是不是有一點好像我們這個有功沒有賞就是打破還要賠所以我想這樣是有點不合理的也不利於未來遺址的保存那再來也跟次長再來談到我想全國的商業總會也曾經提出過"},{"start":11803.483,"end":11827.424,"text":"這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家、學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考"},{"start":11831.056,"end":11850.093,"text":"市長 依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會"},{"start":11854.317,"end":11866.891,"text":"擔憂說如果有了補償機制會讓任何開發單位就無後顧之憂的就隨便開發就變相鼓勵開發的一個情形所以這是他們憂慮的建議我們不要有補償機制可是委員剛剛說到的"},{"start":11868.473,"end":11883.206,"text":"如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話它就一直被埋在地底下可能也永無見天日那這是另外一種議題另外一種思考模式或許我們在這個方向上我們也會再來跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者來進一步討論這是第一個剛剛講到這個"},{"start":11886.929,"end":11895.612,"text":"市挖掘人才戶這個部分我們可以來去建立一個建議名單我想這兩個問題都非常重要我希望會後市長文化部這邊好好討論一下那接下來我再提到我想我國當前世界遺產的潛力點當中有包含了水晶酒礦業遺址還有悲難遺址都蘭山"},{"start":11909.716,"end":11937.319,"text":"那這個地面下其實可能還有一些這個極具潛力的遺址如果按照現在的制度下去其實我們很擔憂未來我們具有潛力的遺址會不會因此而被這個掩埋掉所以我想我們可以就是參考各專家學者過去的我們的經驗碰到的困難那我希望我們回去想一想之後那能夠在什麼樣的時間之內我想把這個報告來給我們那不曉得次長覺得如果一個月的時間有夠嗎"},{"start":11938.3,"end":11965.778,"text":"可以两个月吗两个月好如果两个月的时间希望能够就是更仔细更严谨一点好不好好接下来我们再来讨论今天赵伟牌的这个案子今天都有提到我们目前台湾有18个世界遗产潜力点那到目前为止还没有任何一个申请成世界遗产对不对好那据了解这个原因是为什么到现在我们都还没有任何一个点可以申请成功"},{"start":11966.48,"end":11995.271,"text":"因為我們沒有不具備申請的資格它必須是聯合國的會員國或者是UNESCO的會員國又或者是這個世界遺產保護血公約的一個簽約國是要符合以上條件對嗎但是我想我們有看到其實有簽署世界遺產公約的國家除了聯合國193個會員國以外還有兩個觀察會員國就包括教廷巴勒斯坦以及還有兩個非會員國包括庫克群島跟紐埃"},{"start":11995.731,"end":12020.421,"text":"其實他們都已經簽署了公約那我想文化部你有沒有去了解一下那為什麼庫克群島跟紐埃這個例子他們是可以的呢謝謝委員的詢問我們也去查了庫克群島它最主要是聯合國的秘書處它在1992年的時候它承認庫克群島可以有締約能力所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一那紐埃呢"},{"start":12021.942,"end":12042.142,"text":"應該是類似 就是一樣的狀況那可是目前就是 聯合國秘書處並不願意承認台灣是具有締約的能力好 我想我們繼續努力啦因為這兩個例子本期看到以後覺得很奇怪啊其實它也不是會員國那有去了解那我們就知道原因是什麼那另外我想我們再來提到一個就是說"},{"start":12042.962,"end":12056.137,"text":"文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站市長知道嘛 對嗎那這裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料也包含當前世界遺產的數量那市長這個官網你都看過嗎那官網架設起來你自己都不看要給誰看"},{"start":12063.647,"end":12084.094,"text":"這很抱歉我會改進然後這邊同事有說明我們現在這個網站正在改版當中所以目前的資料所以就是因為你看你們自己都不重視自己都不去了解難怪裡面都會有很多的問題那我希望這些問題其實盡量不要說我們點出來你才去看自己架設的慣忘對你身為次長當然需要去了解"},{"start":12084.574,"end":12111.847,"text":"那文化部近三年总共编列了114万来维护这个网站还更新资料但是本席啊帮您从这个网站上面去看这个世界遗产的数量时候我们发现网站的上半部写着952处文化遗产231处自然遗产以及40处的复合遗产一共是1223处世界遗产但是网站的下方介绍到却写到世界遗产只有1202处这个落差是为什么"},{"start":12115.164,"end":12138.967,"text":"這資料不夠準確的地方我們都一併來做更正次長我必須要講其實這很糟糕欸因為這個是你們的官網第一個呢官網下設出來你們毫不重視資料亂七八糟甚至有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤然後次長自己不看我相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看那這樣子的官網還編了預算我覺得這個預算編給你不是很糟蹋嗎對不對而且官網還要花人力下去"},{"start":12139.287,"end":12157.581,"text":"你是糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力我覺得這個是要嚴正的譴責喔多久時間可以改正好這個改版中我們今年年底一定會完全改版完成之後這一併的資料的面目之質多久的時間可以改完我們就是今年年底會全部改好還要到今年年底喔"},{"start":12158.941,"end":12178.008,"text":"數字的部分我們會馬上去做修正然後只是說改版的部分還有包括語言的版本的部分我想你要整個重大改版我沒有意見但是就現在你的官網上面不管你的數字還是內容應該要更新還是要封戶我想一個禮拜之內把它完成可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝萬美玲委員次長請回好 我們接下來請吳思瑤委員"},{"start":12187.247,"end":12199.298,"text":"回娘家四分鐘回娘家應該多看一下女兒啊四分鐘太短了謝謝朝偉好請次長好有請次長"},{"start":12203.107,"end":12223.619,"text":"首先非常非常感谢易经委员赵伟今天排的这个专案报告我相信易经委员一路也关心也知道我们从上一届开始在教文会就开始倡议了台湾的遗产就是世界的遗产深列世界遗产然后努力闯关加入UNESCO这是我们长城的行动下一页"},{"start":12225.02,"end":12247.015,"text":"私謠是這個議題從上一屆開始催生倡議所以我2022年5月25號第一槍來質詢當時的文化部長李永德那李部長say yes所以呢就重組了重新啟動了這個推動會因為在阿扁總統任內陳玉秀文件會前主委開始"},{"start":12249.128,"end":12273.456,"text":"運作的這個委員會其實已經Pending暫緩一段時間所以在2022年541的要求之下重啟這個推動會我謝謝文化部重新動起來而2023年我持續的質詢陳建仁前院長以及當時的文化部長變成史哲了我謝謝史哲部長他不只Say Yes他還同步除了"},{"start":12274.256,"end":12279.259,"text":"有形文化遗产的委员会他还新设了一个非物质文化遗产的委员会"},{"start":12304.236,"end":12332.989,"text":"也列定了12個非夷來納入潛力推動而我也不放棄我一直說文化跟外交兩個部要強強聯手所以我再一次到外交委員會質詢外交部長林佳龍他也同意要一起納入外交部的力量讓文化部不會孤軍奮戰所以一路走來重啟深列世界文化遺產我們是ING進行式下一頁"},{"start":12334.229,"end":12362.005,"text":"而現在是最好的時機我當時在2022重啟倡議的時候那時候國際對於台灣的支持還沒有現在這個當下那麼的強大所以搭配著其實我們現在沒有辦法升列是因為我們不是聯合國的成員也不是締約國嘛所以說這當然是我們眼前政治的困難也是中國一再打壓之下我們的"},{"start":12363.206,"end":12374.436,"text":"受壓力受阻可是當聯合國這麼多國家越來越多國家甚至美國在安理會裡頭鬥地台灣發聲要重新針對2758號決議為台灣平反所以鍛煉了很久的政治議題我們要用文化來縫合現在就是最好的時機下頁"},{"start":12387.688,"end":12391.149,"text":"所以說萬事俱備只欠東風我們的主觀條件做好準備客觀的國際情勢有利於我們的時候我們就能夠因為我們Ready了所以我一直在倡議台灣即使不是聯合國的會員可是我們參與國際組織跟聯合國的各個轄下機構我們都不遺餘力"},{"start":12412.057,"end":12435.847,"text":"世界衛生組織每年都在倡議國際民航組織聯合國氣候變化綱要公約我們即便不是聯合國成員我們也宣示了我們跟進氣候變化公約我們的所有的國際法規國內法我們來推動還包括要加入國際刑警組織所以文化不是outside整個前因後果"},{"start":12436.647,"end":12461.047,"text":"UNESCO 我們要努力 我們也可以努力而現在是最好的時機 夏業文化就是最好的外交 更是最強的國防我認為我們的步驟就是用深列世界文化遺產讓世界看到台灣做好功課後面再逐步的向UNESCO來叩關好 這是我們共同的策略跟願景"},{"start":12462.529,"end":12478.343,"text":"這有很多的好處我都不再贅述了強化文化保存推動文化外交落實遺產的教育實踐聯合國SDGS的精神深化台灣的文化認同而且可以促進文化觀光我們都可以不落人後好 下來"},{"start":12479.364,"end":12483.806,"text":"重點來了現在有形跟無形我們要雙軌並進而且文化跟外交部強強聯手就是最好的一個安排跟籌備下一頁我就問具體的進展我看到你們有進展"},{"start":12495.808,"end":12503.57,"text":"在有形文化遺產的部分我們開了第五屆第二次會議那時候就訂定說我們要透過在國外設置一個文化據點譬如說在法國巴黎讓我們可以透過這個文化據點跟我們強化內部的整備工作去建立國際的人脈跟NGO跟UNESCO的相關外圍組織來串聯然後跨部會一起來下一頁"},{"start":12520.914,"end":12537.732,"text":"而這個文化據點在巴黎非常有意義因為UNESCO總部就在巴黎我們的台法文化獎是現在我們跟世界串聯獎項辦得雄驕文的我們有很好的文化歷史跟法國包括我們"},{"start":12538.553,"end":12555.13,"text":"去年的巴黎文化奧運台灣的文化奧運受到巴黎法國人很高的推崇所以我們是不是可以要設一個這個國際的據點而他就設在巴黎這件事情好像沒有下文了耶 市長"},{"start":12556.816,"end":12576.646,"text":"跟委員報告的確這個決議在巴黎社據點就是去年十月份然後小野部長第一次主持這個推動會吳志忠政策也提出來的他提出這個建議所以我們原本就是希望在今年開始去現在是因為我們今年一一四年都被刪了交流司的預算"},{"start":12578.393,"end":12580.694,"text":"我們希望就讓台灣的國人來看看文化外交就因為藍白二侃二山預算我們不只要在巴黎設一個國際文化的據點來向UNESCO叩關來深列世界文化遺產"},{"start":12593.76,"end":12616.857,"text":"都因为没有预算没有办法进行但是我们如果预算得宜我们还是这个计划还是要持续的规划好很好继续努力下一页第二个我要问的是外交部必须配合协助你们去串联NGO跟UNESCO的外围组织下一页是不是同样也因为你们的"},{"start":12617.714,"end":12645.169,"text":"旅費國際的媒宣旅費國際交流的廢物都被刪了也受了影響是不是這樣是的那計劃都在只是沒錢對Keep計劃我們想辦法想方設法不能讓計劃因為預算斷垂而整個終止好嗎所以那個計劃我認為也是必要的我們強化用外圍組織的力量來前進給UNESCO更大的助力也"},{"start":12645.489,"end":12672.791,"text":"也是給他們壓力好那最後一個下一個有形文化遺產我非常同意台灣不能再走回過去我們有18個遺遺潛力點18個都來或者是說地方政府不斷的來提報我們在深列世界文化遺產有形或文化跟無形都應當是用國家對之力來打世界盃所以應當是選出最強的所以現在優先選阿里山"},{"start":12673.692,"end":12700.631,"text":"的鐵道文化景觀我非常同意當然我像我的選區有這個大屯火山的這個自然景觀我也很希望但是我認為這是不是把它當作個人的政績而是這是國家對所以有形文化遺產的部分繼續來推動以阿里山的這個方案無形文化遺產我知道我們有很多原住民的這個塞夏萊林紀這些東西持續做可是無形文化遺產我們最有潛力的就是實文化"},{"start":12701.803,"end":12714.799,"text":"我們看看日本的和食韓國的泡菜法國的法棍麵包這個義大利的披薩都因為食文化食文化不是只有食物這麼簡單它是背後的歷史脈絡社會"},{"start":12719.565,"end":12738.383,"text":"的整個story還有記憶傳承食物的烹煮各種的方式所以說以食文化來深列非物質文化遺產台灣很有潛力我們是美食的國家譬如說你讓夜市的美食變成一整個大團隊戰的概念"},{"start":12739.204,"end":12754.253,"text":"我相信你們也有在這個準備導入國際準則就學習別人怎麼去深列的然後也在這個部分還是可以接受地方提報但是是打世界盃是國家隊你們實文化的部分現在進展到哪裡了"},{"start":12755.534,"end":12772.231,"text":"石文化的部分我們在113年的時候有先委託了北藝大對 我知道黃珍燕教授那現在好像計畫結案了吧對 4月8號我們這個案子結案了那我們就會把這個陳柏報告提到我們下一次的"},{"start":12772.591,"end":12798.437,"text":"讨论会那是不是也可以给我这样一个期末报告黄正燕教授是我的老师是我博士班老师而且我非常期待这个报告我真的期待我们就是很难的路我们要做好准备主观条件做足准备万事俱备只限东风当国际的氛围起来支持台湾的力道大了我们就在那个时候可以大量的迸发我们的所有的准备工作"},{"start":12798.877,"end":12803.56,"text":"好嗎不要放棄不要放棄我們可以做到的也請在野黨的委員不要砍預算不要砍預算不要砍預算我們用文化讓世界認識台灣讓世界跟台灣交朋友在野黨還要再惡砍文化預算嗎好我們繼續加油謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝委員的支持好謝謝吳思耀委員來次郎請回我們接下來請李坤誠委員"},{"start":12831.943,"end":12835.044,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請次長好 有請次長你好次長好 接續一下剛剛市長委員對於有形資產和無形資產的問題我想請問一下目前在台灣你們選定了有18項世界遺產的潛力點其中算三個半在我新北市在我們新北市裡面有樂生療養院"},{"start":12861.872,"end":12883.653,"text":"水晶酒礦業遺產淡水紅茅城及周遭歷史建築群我說一半是在大屯火山群因為這個是新北台北包含這個國家公園那我想請教一下你們這個18個裡面你們有挑選了一個阿里山林業鐵道文化景觀把它列入就是說要去強力去推動的一個台灣的這個世界遺產的潛力點"},{"start":12887.316,"end":12896.231,"text":"你們這個要怎麼去強力的去推動它是代表台灣的一個世界的一個遺產的一個潛力點或是說它就是一個世界遺產"},{"start":12898.317,"end":12922.942,"text":"當然策略上面就是跟地方縣市政府就嘉義市嘉義縣還有地方的文史團體合作好來做進一步的一個文本的準備然後或是故事的一個敘述那另外國際的部分我們也會透過每一次在辦國際論壇的時候邀請了包括ICOMOS或是ICOM的這一些國際組織裡面的重要成員那當他們到台灣來參加國際會議的時候我們也會安排"},{"start":12925.322,"end":12941.681,"text":"他們去實地的去理解我們阿里山森林鐵路的一個保存的狀況跟它的文化價值大概是用這樣內外的我覺得這個東西就是說第一個在台灣你讓台灣人知道說這就是我們有可能是世界遺產情侶的一點但是我們也希望"},{"start":12943.422,"end":12963.235,"text":"讓全世界的人知道所以也要走出去我的意思是說我們要走出去那但是因為我們被中國打壓我們不是聯合國會員我們也不是這個UNESCO的會員我們就沒有辦法去登陸這個世界賽但怎麼去走出去我剛剛聽到就是說我們除了外交部的努力之外然後在交通部這部分呢觀光署的部分呢"},{"start":12963.795,"end":12981.34,"text":"有把這個我們的這個世界遺產潛力點有把它跟大家講說你來台灣來觀光那你可以來看我們的這一個這個世界遺產的潛力點包含這個有形的或是無形的我們有在做這方面的跟交通部觀光署的做一個合作嗎"},{"start":12983.662,"end":12995.67,"text":"18個潛力點並沒有每一個可是至少阿里山林業鐵路這個事情是有跟觀光署還有林業署的他們的保存處是有一起在合作的可是我們既然列了18個我們當然希望說這18個都讓外國的朋友們知道說這個是我們的世界遺產潛力點我們也希望說來到台灣的時候能夠到我們這些這個潛力點去走走去看一看所以應該不是只有"},{"start":13012.302,"end":13027.14,"text":"在阿里山竟然列了18個嘛我也很希望說來到我們這個新北市啊來到這個紅毛城啊來到這個樂生養養院啊或是來到這個我們的這個水晶酒啊等等"},{"start":13028.061,"end":13049.004,"text":"那你們這方面的宣傳我這樣聽起來那就是沒有跟觀光署配合的很好啊這部分我們再來努力跟觀光署聯繫看其他的這17處怎麼樣在觀光署的部分可以做一個聯合的宣傳這我們會努力對啊我覺得這方面要加強嘛就是外交是一部分讓世界看見台灣但是我們也希望說觀光客來到這邊的時候"},{"start":13050.365,"end":13078.164,"text":"能夠去參觀我們這些這個世界遺產潛力點我覺得這部分看你們要怎麼去做那再給本席一個說明跟報告好嗎那另外一個就是說我是希望說他在台灣他不是就是說我們設一個潛力點就在那邊然後呢他就只在那邊你們有沒有一些還是說這是地方政府的就是跟他們協助配合或是說指導就是說讓這些點"},{"start":13080.725,"end":13096.201,"text":"能夠有更多的我們的 比如說我們的下一代我們的孩子們能夠來親近 能夠知道說為什麼這個地方是設立這個會列為我們這個世界遺產的潛力點它的特殊的地理環境 人文環境在哪裡 有沒有這方面的一些協助"},{"start":13097.037,"end":13115.775,"text":"我們一直持續在補助各縣市主管機關,能夠做一些教育推廣的計畫我們每一年,所以這個都有嗎?有,都有你新北市的計畫給我看一下好嗎?我印象中,在當市議員的時候,感受不到有這方面關於我們這一個世界遺產的活化"},{"start":13118.137,"end":13140.653,"text":"那這方面麻煩給我一下資料那最後一個我再問就是說你們現在希望就是說這些潛力點能夠完成這個文本篆擬的一個報告那我看了一下水晶酒礦業遺產還有大屯山群這兩處的這個潛力點都還沒有完成這個文本篆擬的程序是不是這個是地方政府的問題嗎"},{"start":13142.56,"end":13166.97,"text":"因為它最主要像水晶酒或是大屯山它都跨了主管機關大屯山的話主要還是內政部國家公園署還有陽明山的國家管理處然後還有一部分也是在台北市政府那誰要來寫大屯山依照我們的規定的話就是他們要聯合應該是由內政部這邊來主題啦那內政部沒有寫喔"},{"start":13169.347,"end":13180.921,"text":"已經有來申請了哪時候?你們有規定的期限嗎?過去一直沒有來申請那它列入我們的世界遺產潛力點多久了?15年以上了15年以上了沒有來寫"},{"start":13188.301,"end":13204.751,"text":"所以我們最近就是鼓勵協調以後啊我們就最近的推動會我們特別就是有請各縣市這些主管機關啊來找這方面的奴隸所以他們已經提計畫來了我們會來協助補助他們去進行那水晶酒呢他就在新北市應該沒有跨什麼其他單位啊"},{"start":13205.493,"end":13224.88,"text":"所以目前他已經完成了一個研究資料的盤點可是他因為還得提出一個所謂的再生計畫這部分是他正在申請當中所以我們會給他經費上面補助嗎是的有給他補助他動作還這麼慢那有沒有一個期限"},{"start":13226.52,"end":13246.73,"text":"這沒有 鼓勵而已我是希望說 既然已經被列入了我想新北市他也很樂意說我們在新北市有被列入這個潛力點那如果中央有補助那還是要督促一下這個報告能夠趕快交出來 好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝市長"},{"start":13248.251,"end":13259.836,"text":"好 謝謝李坤城委員次長請回我們接下來請何欣淳何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在我們請鄭天才委員好 主席 各位委員 有請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":13281.801,"end":13302.978,"text":"市長好今天的專題報告是針對台灣世界遺產權利點推動的現況還有相關這個升登世界遺產的一些相關的一個專題報告我們看這個保護世界文化和自然遺產公約很明確的這個"},{"start":13306.397,"end":13331.874,"text":"列了相關的這些文化和自然遺產的這些定義我們看這個今天這專報裡面你們的報告裡面提到的這個附一18處台灣世界遺產權利點總共列了這個18個像馬祖戰地文化淡水紅樓城"},{"start":13334.131,"end":13361.897,"text":"還有台鐵舊山縣、熱身療養院、烏山頭水庫、金門戰地文化、澎湖這些然後也有提到這個大屯山像悲難遺址、台東的蘭嶼、紀錄、台灣竹、盧凱這些都有列,它有個國家公園這個基本上你們都是"},{"start":13363.257,"end":13386.133,"text":"跟這個世界剛講的保護世界文化和自然遺產公約都有密切的符合嗎對 我們就是依照這個不論是文化遺產或是自然遺產它都有一些準則然後這些準則裡面我們有一個分數的評分 然後來加總好 這個我都建議了"},{"start":13388.44,"end":13416.751,"text":"還是要因為要升登嘛希望能夠升登雖然我們還不是這個會員不是會員可以升登嗎?不行但是我們要做到可以升登的那樣的一個要符合升登而且能夠被升登你有這樣的一個相關這些"},{"start":13420.603,"end":13445.051,"text":"遺產的話你再爭取才有更好的理由所以這個部分是所以我是希望往這方向去努力因為我目前這樣初步這樣看都很都是這個都要做沒有錯但是會不會是太最近幾十年的事情很多都是最近幾十年的"},{"start":13446.976,"end":13473.832,"text":"所以這個部分是一個我們需要去思考的何況我們要去連結的話台灣就原住民族啊南島以畜的民族而言美國的這個專家都說南島以畜的民族的發源地是在台灣如果我們能夠去連結這個"},{"start":13475.748,"end":13500.883,"text":"那機會會是不是論述各方面爭取的理由會更多所以我們要去盡量 盡可能要跟南島乙系這個部分也要做都要做沒有錯 這個你們列的這18處也要做但是能夠更強化就是去做那個跟"},{"start":13503.552,"end":13528.455,"text":"南島民族這個有關的這些遺址或是這些遺產去把它連結可能會更有論述的基礎好不好這做的這樣的建議我們會注意的努力好這個談到這個以原住民族來講像花蓮的崇德遺址它就是一個很重要的像這個"},{"start":13529.764,"end":13539.157,"text":"水蓮移植在花蓮塑蜂箱跟浸浦那些都有關聯事實上如果列這個"},{"start":13540.66,"end":13560.847,"text":"花蓮的考古遺址這都是民間做的有一部分是這個相關過去的文件會文化部也都有支持所以這裡面光花蓮就這麼多還有台東所以這個部分是一個需要文化部來勉勵希望文化部能夠加油的地方"},{"start":13562.145,"end":13577.575,"text":"好,這個無話資產保存法第三條,這特別提到無話資產,這些列了好幾項。好,這個另外就是無話資產保存法第十三條。"},{"start":13579.812,"end":13599.472,"text":"這個在第八屆的時候我在第八屆當立委的時候也特別修增加了這個原住民的條文原住民族文化資產首設事項及處理辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定制列了這些規定所以"},{"start":13600.994,"end":13624.234,"text":"這個後來這個辦法也定了也定了當然這個111年是修正的之前是更早修正不過是一些一些比較細微的部分很重要就是說這個106年之後這個執行的一個狀況一些成果可以提出素面報告了"},{"start":13625.796,"end":13652.049,"text":"好 可以 我們在兩個月內跟委員提出報告提出書面的成果資料給本席所以這個部分是我們要繼續努力的地方所以這個部分這個是讓文化部能夠有更好的一個方向以上 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝曾天才委員好 次長請回我們接下來請張祺凱委員"},{"start":13673.817,"end":13677.378,"text":"你們文化部主辦這個台北時裝週這對我們台灣的這個時裝啊對很多很優秀的這個設計師非常重要可是"},{"start":13698.294,"end":13712.797,"text":"最近不止有網友 很多很優秀的設計師爆料他們非常憤慨今年啊 走秀的時候 台北時裝週走秀竟然爆出說有用中國的成衣才去淘寶買的直接用貼牌印上自己的圖案大家看一下這個圖案左邊這個淘寶上面在賣的 你看"},{"start":13725.489,"end":13731.333,"text":"一件啦人民幣26塊在台幣應該半碗蝴蝶這是走秀的照片這是不是貼牌直接買了淘寶上面的衣服100多塊的衣服貼牌竟然就可以在我們台北時裝中這麼重要的場合上去走秀更可惡的"},{"start":13754.028,"end":13766.972,"text":"不是只有今年耶 它是累犯耶 古年2024年的秋冬會出現一樣 你看 也是一樣 淘寶上面清清楚楚的一個圖案然後 貼牌以後 就上了我們的台北時裝週走秀"},{"start":13777.588,"end":13784.432,"text":"台北時裝桌對我們整個時尚產業這多重要對我們那些很努力很優秀的設計師多麼重要對於我們的創造國際聲量多重要出大問題"},{"start":13791.526,"end":13818.745,"text":"這不是蠻丟臉的一件事嗎所以跟委員報告所以針對這個案子我們已經組成了委員會來進行調查當中那如果調查結果屬實是有網友所指稱的這樣的現象的時候我們其實就是會追究處理取消他的資格這樣子來看一下這傷害有多大來我們看下一張下一張下一張我們很優秀的這個設計師啊如果要去參加台北時裝桌從設計"},{"start":13821.34,"end":13824.563,"text":"選材 到打板 裁剪 印刷 刺繡大概啊 時間大概用掉 最起碼喔 至少兩個禮拜以上喔有時候要上個 超過一個月 對不對成本大概 至少不要說兩千塊 有時候都要上萬塊欸就你去淘寶去買中國貨買了以後就貼牌就貼上去 今天可能身份是四八個"},{"start":13850.064,"end":13857.97,"text":"這傷害太大了吧對我們的創作對我們跨上國際品牌傷害有多大好 你們一直在講說你們怎麼處理來 我看一下你們的處理面對這樣的野犯對我們傷害這麼大你們說針對社群上面對本次台北時裝桌品牌秀某一個廠牌這個就是我現在最有意見的很多有名的設計師來抗議"},{"start":13878.763,"end":13906.127,"text":"他是獵犯啊你為什麼連他的品牌都沒有公佈為什麼是寫了一個某一品牌我想說在調查中如果調查結束後我們一定會公佈我們的處理方式你們還要調查多久 一個多月了餒市長 其實創立台北時裝這是很多設計師現在來吹哨來抗議來爆料第一個你明明知道是哪個廠牌的對不對"},{"start":13907.998,"end":13917.525,"text":"第一個 那為什麼你還要這樣保護他 這是一個第二個 我剛剛執行前喔我還請我辦公室上去看這個台北時裝座的官網品牌資料庫啊這個壘犯啊 品牌掛在那裡你們這是在處理嗎市長 是不是馬上去把他拿下來"},{"start":13932.215,"end":13958.29,"text":"我想我們整個徵求廠商然後參與廠商誰能夠掛到這個聯合品牌上面都有它一定的規則我們就依照我們公告的這個要點來處理在它沒有被證明有實質的違法或者是違反要點之前我們就會讓它或者是說我們也來研議是不是在有疑慮的狀況下我們先來下架能夠上我們台北時裝中走秀是一個很大的榮耀"},{"start":13959.511,"end":13965.634,"text":"對不對 結果他是獵犯他拿中國後來貼牌你們是這樣處理的現在要追究的是什麼你要調查 你還要追究責任"},{"start":13969.833,"end":13988.293,"text":"當初你們的徵選委員會到底是怎麼徵選的我看那個名單很多都很有名啊很專業啊我們要肯定他要去查到底是什麼有人推薦他還是有沒有徵選過程出什麼問題而且是累犯兩次再去查清楚好不好好我們一併來討論一併來檢討而且裡面對新銳的這個品牌你們要提供20萬的補助對不對"},{"start":13990.157,"end":14005.645,"text":"這個品牌有沒有被你們補助其實這樣這一類的品牌秀的部分我們沒有提供補助只是提供這樣子的一個平台機會讓他們可以上台走秀所以我們做個主席先站起來我簡單做個"},{"start":14012.81,"end":14041.593,"text":"第一個這個問題已經嚴重到很多有名的設計師專業的設計師整個都砸鍋了他們有做了很多的意見回饋我請利用這個場合我跟次長還有大家共享一下說參加展會之後效益是不是低落的訂單請問沒有像如期那麼高第二個如果以後是不是開始正式收費的時候有多少國內設計師會願意去報名你看本來大家爭著要來的"},{"start":14043.187,"end":14044.272,"text":"結果你看 出現這個問題"},{"start":14046.243,"end":14073.251,"text":"一顆老鼠鼠啊壞了一整鍋粥這個問題要趕快處理 好不好大家對台北我們對你們這個活動是老講本來是非常非常重視的整個時尚的產業 設計的產業已經第八年了大家都在拍手的時候突然出現連兩次連兩年出現這個問題好 他們還回饋了一個意見說曾經努力向文化部申請補助可是發現啊申請到的補助的人永遠都是那些人"},{"start":14074.269,"end":14099.65,"text":"只是交差拿補助幾乎很多都是內定的對努力在國際上曝光的台灣品牌很不公平當某媒體公司拿到標案的時候其他陣營的媒體不可能用力去報導其他努力應酬才開始有機會可以去參加的才可以加入這個群體這可能都是很多意見好不好去查清楚有沒有這些問題好 這我們會來深刻解討最後我們做五個具體的我們提五個具體的訴求第一個 以後啊"},{"start":14103.933,"end":14105.774,"text":"請參加的作品要跟主辦方要切結好不好要簽署切結你來參加我們的時裝桌你參展不能夠用現成的成單用成一再去貼牌可不可以"},{"start":14117.124,"end":14145.504,"text":"这部分的诉求跟要求我们都会来研议看怎么样那以后的要点明定而且要落实以后他一定要签这个切结第二个参展这个产品的审查跟指导这个过程要兼备到商业性才能够让我们以后展期结束以后有能够收到订单避免为了消化预算变成一个过场活动第三我们要多鼓励品牌要多跟我们台湾的厂商要合作让他可以跟流台湾第四个"},{"start":14146.064,"end":14168.654,"text":"未來展會結束以後的訂單啦效益這個統計表要公開透明我今天沒有時間啦雖然我有去調你們那個整個那個收益跟整個後來那個訂單看起來這個要加油啦你一個月內給我一份好不好就是你們辦完這八年以後成效到底有多大好不好最後一個這個最重要這是一個行動方案我們的設計師受的委屈了因為他們非常努力啊"},{"start":14169.54,"end":14189.37,"text":"可能在國際上很多都邀請我們很專業的很多設計師去可是你出了這個事情能不能在一個月內召開一個公聽會邀請我們台灣設計師共商我們台北時裝桌要如何去改進好不好一方面請聽他們的聲音一方面把這些弊病趕快做一個檢討然後請聽他們的聲音我們共同往前走可以嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":14191.256,"end":14209.55,"text":"辦理台北時裝周跟我們辦理台北書展都是一樣的都是希望對這個產業能夠耕留台灣能夠有商業性能夠走出台灣都是一樣的目的那如果過程中我們的執行有什麼缺點這我們會持續來檢討跟改進好 能夠有語言說明"},{"start":14209.997,"end":14227.891,"text":"我現在具體的 對不對所以我們目標是一樣的嘛 對不對我們也心疼我們的設計師心疼的設計師啦我們要肯定他們的努力嘛 對不對事實上你辦這個台北時裝搜你本來是對我們的時尚產業這個很大一個交流平台啊所以趕快去補破網嘛所以我的具體要求是一個月內召開一個公聽會你邀請他們一起來討論請聽他們的聲音然後共同來解決看怎麼樣可以做得更好可不可以"},{"start":14234.243,"end":14245.29,"text":"就是邀集業界或者是產學那邊一起來檢討我們台北時裝周的辦理方式或者如果更進步這個我們會更注意一個月內辦可以嗎一個月你要多少時間辦"},{"start":14247.932,"end":14261.757,"text":"能不能兩個月內 好嗎 好不好兩個月內你要辦喔 好不好那 跟我們講 我們一定會召開邀集邀集他們來討論或是什麼 就不一定是所謂的公聽會啦好不好 OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝張熙楷委員 次長請回我們接下來請陳培宇委員好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":14280.011,"end":14301.137,"text":"好 次長午安 辛苦了午安我很久我很常回來教文 謝謝主席好 我想跟次長討論關於這個文化統戰的部分其實上個禮拜五月二十八中國舉辦了第二屆海峽兩岸中華文化峰會文學論壇出席的作家我就不再一一的念他們的名字了我們認為他們是被叫去北京訓話怎麼說呢這個論壇其實這個峰會它從去年開始是第一屆"},{"start":14307.159,"end":14318.148,"text":"其實統戰意味非常的濃厚他甚至說而且當時是宋濤到場發表致詞他說兩岸民眾共同堅決反對台獨就不再細講了那這是去年那當然我們台灣現在國內的氛圍我們對於像這樣的統戰我們非常的不屑而且我們認為這確實是一個嚴重影響台灣團結的一個"},{"start":14331.418,"end":14338.742,"text":"一個類似像這樣一系列的活動所以他們今年的言論言詞稍微有比較收斂但是我們還是要跟文化部討論一件事情其實事實上在兩岸人民關係條例裡面本來就有明確的規範也就是說台灣人沒有經過主管機關許可不得與中國的政治性機關團體從事對台政治工作的合作行為而且我們也有相關罰則那"},{"start":14358.212,"end":14365.22,"text":"前一陣子我們看到文化部的態度非常明確的表示相關藝人如果有相關的言論或者是行為或是轉發的貼文都有可能違反兩岸人民關係條例我認為我們這樣的態度非常的明確非常的重要但為什麼我要從這些作家說起我認為"},{"start":14376.853,"end":14393.769,"text":"目前所有的文化工作者 前一張 我們所有的文化工作者可能都有這個疑慮他們需要文化部 需要我們台灣政府部會給予明確的法令跟規範甚至有更多的宣導跟台灣社會的溝通讓他們知道台灣政府可以做他們的靠山"},{"start":14394.99,"end":14414.523,"text":"他們再到中國去分享他們的文學創作也好歌曲創作也好他們還是可以自由的去發表可是不應該要配合中國做這樣的統戰言論我想後續要拜託文化部持續做更多社會溝通跟討論也許也可以傾聽他們到中國去到底遇到什麼樣的困境好不好"},{"start":14415.473,"end":14439.846,"text":"好 謝謝次長那我們來看一下這可能也是文化部過去所忽略事實上在體育署這邊過往我們從中華奧會開始每年都有所謂的六來六往的活動這個是在2020年左右就是比較早期的台灣的狀態那個時候可能大家覺得沒有什麼但是隨著中國對台灣的敵意越來越深包含最近林昀如"},{"start":14440.626,"end":14465.261,"text":"被戴紅領巾 被安排而這一切當然 雲儒後來的解釋大家都聽明白但關鍵是他這個經紀人而這個經紀人不管他是來自於什麼樣的系統我要說的是體育界過往可能對像這樣的行為大家覺得是一種技術交流 體育交流好像體育不涉政治但事實上不論是文化 文學 藝術 體育從來都跟政治有關"},{"start":14466.261,"end":14487.874,"text":"這個部分我們可不可以拜託文化部有沒有機會在三個月內我們來招提預署開會因為如果這一次是相關經紀人的問題那經紀人的相關業務範圍有沒有跟文化部有關文化部如何協助把我剛剛說的你們在協助藝人也好協助文學工作者也好到中國去工作去必須要有的心理認知跟遇到後續的狀況應該要怎麼辦"},{"start":14489.955,"end":14501.569,"text":"有沒有機會協助體育署以協助所謂這些文學創作者的角色來協助所謂體育經紀人這一塊或者是更多到中國去做交流的人必須要小心被統戰這件事情"},{"start":14502.872,"end":14522.324,"text":"我想體育署在教育部教育部這邊如果體育署有需要我們去分享一些經紀人如何跟選手或者藝人之間的關係這個我們可以去跟他們做分享至於說文化藝術工作者文化部這邊其實真的一直公開的呼籲"},{"start":14524.185,"end":14541.344,"text":"不反對文化交流我們也支持文化交流可是我們必須提醒我們的文化人對岸其實是充滿了統戰充滿了一個政治上面的企圖他們充滿了敵意充滿了統戰他們從來都沒有真的認為文化只是文化體育只是體育"},{"start":14542.705,"end":14560.232,"text":"這個話甚至是台灣島內很多人也是拿來自欺欺人的所以我想我要再次拜託文化部不管是在文化工作者或是後續我們如何協助從教育部到體育署各式各樣這些工作者他們有這個意識並且有這個能力甚至遇到相關困難的時候他們知道可以回家來求救好不好"},{"start":14560.632,"end":14579.069,"text":"好另外一個想跟您討論關於駐村藝術家的問題我們看到最近有人權館公開徵件邀請藝術家去景美人權園區還有去綠島駐村我們看到相關的案子另外呢有非常非常多其實在台灣的公家機關裡面有非常多這個駐村的案子可是我們看到相關"},{"start":14580.631,"end":14595.351,"text":"給藝術家的福利也好你們說是福利你們說是補助你們說是支持方案我們都認為其實真的還有再改進的地方怎麼看包含台灣館的案例很多很多我就不再贅述了可是我想要說這些非常"},{"start":14597.83,"end":14605.578,"text":"不優的補助也好支持方案也好我們如果來看日本跟韓國我們怎麼看來我們的人均GDP已經超過日本了對嗎可是我們來看日本給予藝術家進駐給出的條件非常非常的好包含機票生活補助然後創作的諮詢公開的工作室交流"},{"start":14615.928,"end":14641.574,"text":"這些資料你們可以帶回去看我們辦公室很願意提供日本的部分那我們來看韓國韓國也是你看住村的經費住宿的空間來回的機票其他的協助也就是他們對於所謂住村這件事情他們其實有更多的配套跟想像他們甚至在想的是雖然你的短期住村可能是最長最短三個月最長12個月而在這之前跟之後他可能都還有其他延伸的效應讓藝術跟日常的生活更可以結合"},{"start":14644.255,"end":14664.046,"text":"那我相信其實在文化部轄下有非常多國立的機關跟機構單位是有心想要推這個住村但我們可能過往對於住村的想像比較單薄比較單一沒有機會想得更多那我這邊就提出我個人的建議可不可以拜託文化部跟轄下各個管所召開藝術家住村諮詢會議同時我們把地方政府拉進來文化藝術工作者來共同討論藝術家住村到底實際上我們還可以怎麼樣"},{"start":14672.911,"end":14689.34,"text":"讓這些方案變得更好我想聽聽看次長您的意見謝謝委員的提問關於藝術村的部分在文化部來講有兩種方式一種是我們支持我們的藝術家到國外去住村另外一個是我們自己文化部或者是我們的所屬機關辦理"},{"start":14691.181,"end":14708.864,"text":"住村的邀集然後又是補助縣市政府來經營他們縣市政府層級的一個藝術村甚至有民間的藝術村這個文化部也會給予支持那只是說今天委員提到的是一個住村的條件到底要怎麼樣訂定會比較好那因為當然如果說用"},{"start":14709.505,"end":14726.11,"text":"用現在現有的狀況去做解釋的話是我們文化部所屬機關在做這個住村的目的上並不是在做一種老物採購而是一個給予一個資源有空間的資源我知道次長會講這個但是時間有限我舉個例子我們來想一想我舉一個例子給您做參考"},{"start":14731.195,"end":14750.184,"text":"那個部長上任之後做了一個很棒的鼓勵就是給繪本創作者一個月五萬塊我不確定你們在部內是不是用勞務採購還是用所謂創作補助這件事情我不確定但我的意思是說其實部長當時開出這個非常好的條件連很多年輕創作者跟我們說部長真的是有想到給年輕創作者"},{"start":14751.985,"end":14756.307,"text":"這部分的經濟我們在努力來籌存讓他的住村條件可以更好好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員 謝謝好 我們次長請回我們接下來請林月琴委員"},{"start":14787.318,"end":14792.17,"text":"好 主席麻煩我們的次長領域李靜惠好 有請李次長"},{"start":14799.131,"end":14819.29,"text":"市長我們看到我們的世界遺產潛力點大多是在2000年的時候初期就陸續納進去文化部在去年2月才修訂潛力點零選籍除名的作業要點"},{"start":14820.931,"end":14838.569,"text":"明定了優先順序跟退場機制那當然要點都修訂一年了我沒有看到太多新的變化所以請問目前這套機制運作的怎麼樣有沒有新的項目準備列入又有沒有哪些點是被要除名的"},{"start":14840.391,"end":14861.679,"text":"跟委員報告這個要點我們目前根據這個要點在召開推動會那推動會裡面是有在討論要增加客家的部分客家八音那至於除名的部分目前這十二項委員是認為都還是具有潛力沒有打算有除名的一個計畫"},{"start":14864.1,"end":14878.856,"text":"你好像料到我要講什麼因為我身為一個客家人真的要問你為什麼這麼多年來客家的巴音 米食 茶文化 竹編這些很珍貴的文化記憶"},{"start":14879.717,"end":14896.156,"text":"就從來沒有列入台灣世界遺產潛力點的名單剛剛很高興聽到你說即將我們的客家的巴音要列入原來總統也指出客家六件的政策已有成效要讓台灣的客家文化成為全球多元文化的珍寶所以你們"},{"start":14896.897,"end":14924.434,"text":"要把台灣的文化推向世界的時候一定要考量到我們客家文化把它列為潛力點那世界文化遺產的推動不是只有國內文化保存還有呢要被國際看到的一個重要面向你們的遴選要點提報單位可以是文資局也可以是地方政府但如果他們地方政府沒有提那中央的文資局為什麼這麼多年有沒有主動去提報一些有相關的那這"},{"start":14926.315,"end":14941.713,"text":"也想問次長說讓我知道有沒有什麼特別原因因為我說剛剛前面講沒針沒剪的狀態裡邊有沒有有一些你現在即將要增加客家八音那是如果地方地方沒有提的話你們自己會提嗎"},{"start":14943.976,"end":14964.532,"text":"目前剛剛跟委員做說明的就是客家八音這個是在我們推動委員會因為這次的邀集的委員裡面有一位是客家音樂的專業那老師們就提出說覺得在我們五行文化遺產的部分其實可以增列客家八音那這個在委員會裡面得到大家的同意可是它的程序上即使說"},{"start":14965.433,"end":14986.471,"text":"我們有委員這樣提那我們還是得去找到一個所謂的地方縣市政府他得先得到地方縣市政府的一個文資身份之後那再來逐步的提報所以這個部分我們還在跟地方政府研議中看是要有哪一個縣市政府有這個意願願意提報出來的時候那我們就會讓他按照程序來走那進入我們的潛力名單"},{"start":14987.031,"end":15011.342,"text":"不過剛剛你提的這有點特別就是說要有一個你們剛好有委員有事實上是客家人然後才有提所以我的意思說如果從你們角度上來看你們自己到底有沒有去solo整個的我們台灣的一些相關的文化裡面來設為你們的潛力點還是因為有一個委員有在你們才有提然後其他的都沒有去這麼多年來沒有特別去提出這個東西"},{"start":15012.963,"end":15022.248,"text":"應該是講我們這個不論是有形或無形這些潛力點的提報都是透過專家委員或者是地方縣市政府還有那個"},{"start":15024.816,"end":15045.895,"text":"就是以專要委來提報然後他們提出來了一個潛力名單之後我們再跟他的主管機關能夠去溝通所以這件事情文資局並不是主動每一年在自己做這樣的研究調查可是只要有人提醒文資局就會找到適當的單位請他們來做研議跟後面的提報的一個動作"},{"start":15046.636,"end":15067.906,"text":"不過我覺得主動性還要有否則的話很被動等待如果有些人不特別會去提或地方政府沒提的話我認為大概很多東西都不會被你們社會是潛力點或者應該講反過來講說你們有沒有去做宣傳為什麼因為我覺得要讓台灣文化走向世界最近大家讀到知道全世界的客家莊"},{"start":15070.047,"end":15089.073,"text":"連東非洲都有我認為透過文化部的努力的話台灣完全可以成為全球認識客家文化的一個關鍵基地那說到世界文化遺產申請的基礎的文化行銷我不得不佩服我們的韓國鄰近國家我也報說韓國事實上是全球"},{"start":15089.833,"end":15116.909,"text":"最佳的飲食軟實力的行銷典範所以他們在2013年把泡菜製作現在叫興起列入聯合國非物質文化遺產甚至一部黑白大廚的韓國廚藝的競賽的影集都能夠在全世界引起掀起我們的韓食的熱潮所以想問次長我們自己到底有沒有決心也要做出世界看的"},{"start":15117.469,"end":15121.731,"text":"成如委員所提醒的其實除了潛力點被提報了以後他其實要做一個相當一個文本的一個準備那這個文本以後他其實就是那個故事性還有他未來要怎麼行銷怎麼教育推廣"},{"start":15143.584,"end":15162.202,"text":"這些都是一個一連串的那這部分文化部或者是文資局可以學習的真的還很多像韓國的這些做法我們真的也都看在眼裡我們也很急著希望能夠協助我們這些很珍貴的文化資產能夠被看見那這些事情我們目前"},{"start":15163.423,"end":15183.388,"text":"當然以中央部會來講通常是一種被動的就是補助我們比較少能夠自己主動去開委託案或是什麼那可是這個補助我們會積極的來跟地方政府或者是民間團體來鼓勵他們能夠提出申請那我們藉由這個款項的補助能夠讓"},{"start":15184.788,"end":15212.437,"text":"我覺得文化部還是有個導引的角色在因為你補助還是會有個方向所以我反過來問是說立法院又可以從哪些法規跟預算面來幫文化部當然預算的支持是一個非常重要的事情而且不只是我剛剛講講說我們今年只有補助款還算有一點保留我們的業務費其實是被被砍得蠻兇的所以要做委託案要主動出擊必須要業務費可是我們現在"},{"start":15213.837,"end":15231.733,"text":"文字局的90%都是補助款所以這也是我們在預算結構上面的一個先天性的限制那如果說委員這邊可以同意的話我們也希望教文會的委員其實我覺得教文會委員真的很支持文化部了在預算上面其實給我們蠻多的一個支持的力道"},{"start":15232.654,"end":15248.672,"text":"未來我們就是會在這個力道在做事的方法上面更積極更主動一點這個事情我們會來努力最後就是說市長你今天報告主題之一是完善的潛力點保存那你過去也坦承推動困難是因為民眾認識不足可是我要講的是文化"},{"start":15250.784,"end":15266.929,"text":"問題是文化部對維護的方式上可能有些問題像這張左邊這張照片呢是像是文化部列為潛力點的桃園台地的那個皮堂你們說它事實上是完整的地景聚落這張照片事實上是公有地的皮堂可是現場"},{"start":15268.169,"end":15292.003,"text":"右手邊現場事實上是雜草重生有民眾丟棄垃圾堆積魚苗死亡夏天還會飄出惡臭也沒有好好的維護如果你今天要去推說我們的桃園台地皮糖那你只有一個點可是整個桃園的台地皮糖是很多點的那這時候就連桃園人自己都會覺得說他們這個皮糖根本也不是一個很好"},{"start":15293.544,"end":15318.721,"text":"放出來的點是八德皮堂有生態休閒的功能就很漂亮所以有沒有要整體要去做維護去做調整否則今天觀光客來看到你推薦的桃園皮、台地皮堂結果看到的不是八德的話那他也會誤會說這樣子的一個狀態根本不是你文資局或者是文化部提出來的所以想問市長說這樣的落差問題點你們是不是可以去做跨部會"},{"start":15319.942,"end":15347.637,"text":"甚至就是中央跟地方的合作让他们去做一个比较好的完备的否则的话这保存就没有意义结果你们推出来的东西就跟现场事实上有一些事实上是落差的所以我也希望说接下来我觉得请文化部可不可以优先演绎将客家文化纳入到台湾世界遗产潜力的点的推动项目不是只有客家巴音客家美食这些都是一个可去考量的点"},{"start":15348.49,"end":15365.222,"text":"好 委員的提醒我們包括剛剛皮糖的養護的狀況我們會跟桃園市政府再來那這個月內是不是提供相關的報告給我這邊然後客家文化納入世界遺產潛力點的部分我們也會來進行可以兩個月嗎好 謝謝市長 謝謝好 謝謝林玉琴委員 市長請回我們接下來請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":15384.244,"end":15389.431,"text":"好主席有請次長好有請理事長"},{"start":15395.046,"end":15415.284,"text":"好 次長好就書面報告的內容今天我們有幾項來跟大家一起來探討那前面有許多的委員呢其實也都專注在這些點上但是我覺得有些問題我們還是想再繼續探究來跟你詢問民國92年開始我們推動世界遺產的潛力點作業至今已經納入了阿里山森林鐵道"},{"start":15415.945,"end":15436.218,"text":"太魯閣國家公園玉山 排灣族以及盧凱族石板屋的一個聚落金門戰地的文化景觀澎湖玄武岩的一個自然保護區碑南遺址以及都蘭山區那我們目前看到這些都是台灣珍貴的資產這些潛力點呢無論是在歷史意義生態價值"},{"start":15437.779,"end":15460.561,"text":"甚至是文化代表上都皆具國際的一個水準但是目前因為國際政治的一個環境因素使然台灣並非聯合國教科文組的一個會員那也不是世界遺產公約的締約國那我們現在難以實際申請世界遺產的一個登錄想先請問一下次長在現有的這個國際環境之下"},{"start":15462.362,"end":15487.312,"text":"除了持續的參與國際組織辦理國際的論壇甚至邀請國際專家學者交流是否還有沒有突破性的一個策略規劃我們例如我們建議上國際民間的組織或者是非官方的一個機構的合作提升台灣文化資產的國際能見度的認同在國際上也能夠曝光這部分上你們有沒有規劃"},{"start":15490.311,"end":15509.17,"text":"謝謝委員的提問就像您說的因為陷於政治的一個難題所以我們不能夠正式提出申請可是如何讓這些潛力點能夠被國際看見我們它的文化價值或者是我們民眾對它的一個支持跟努力的觀光價值這個部分其實就是我們的工作重點"},{"start":15509.73,"end":15519.974,"text":"那這個工作的方式包括除了用國際論壇的時候能夠邀集一些在ICOM或者是ECOMOS或UNESCO的重要的一些評審的委員們能夠到台灣來實際看我們的一個執行的狀況以外那我們也會透過一個國際的宣導的部分我們的會員"},{"start":15529.318,"end":15548.459,"text":"如果台灣有一些專家學者或是文字局本身去參加國際會議的時候也會主動的把我們這些準備好的資料我們準備的情形帶到國際上去跟國際社會做一個說明以上所以你們目前有沒有具體的跟國際民間組織跟非官方的機構合作的期程"},{"start":15549.84,"end":15570.361,"text":"我們一直都有在努力合作我們也參加了好幾個國際的組織後續如果有相關的這些具體期程可不可以資料給我們一下好 沒有問題好嗎 謝謝那我們想了解一下這個相關的時間期程表那截至113年18處的潛力點已有11處完成文本還有7處未完成 次長這個進度你滿意嗎"},{"start":15573.937,"end":15583.442,"text":"當然我知道大家都不滿意那我們也努力在協調這些主管機關請他們盡快的提出計畫是有什麼困境然後這個沒辦法期數會完成"},{"start":15585.021,"end":15605.398,"text":"因為現在看起來主管救援主要都是比較屬於自然遺產的就是內政部國家公園的這一塊那當然內政部可能就覺得他們不善於沒有申請文化遺產的不善於還是覺得他們覺得不重要不是不是不是他們沒有申請過文化遺產的這一方面的經驗啦所以我們也一直在所以你要加強協助輔導囉對好不好"},{"start":15607.62,"end":15627.876,"text":"那這個部分上我們還是希望這個進度今天很多的委員都有在關心我們希望說這個部分上能夠有所突破跨部會的協調甚至從行政院院長這個部分的院會我想內部的一些院會報告我想你們應該也要提出一些更具體的建議要求跨部會應該要趕快完成"},{"start":15628.556,"end":15651.007,"text":"那這個部分上我再問針對尚未完成的文本潛力點我們看到吳山頭水庫、嘉南大郡、大屯火山群、水晶酒礦業遺址、太武閣國家公園、玉山國家公園文本何時的完成?我想你們目前有沒有一個具體的期程?"},{"start":15652.332,"end":15668.285,"text":"有沒有相關要推動的一個計畫我們是以鼓勵的方式並沒有直接的要求一定要什麼時候完成那目前至少那個內政部看起來這個鼓勵已經有提案了內政部已經有提案我們會盡快的補助他們然後請他們在一兩年的時間內兩年的時間內那你的鼓勵有鼓勵的計畫嗎"},{"start":15678.823,"end":15695.558,"text":"就是補助費用看怎麼樣提升然後我們也是透過我們剛剛我們在那你要不要檢討一下是不是誘因不夠還是他們完全就是覺得不一定想做所以這個部分這樣的檢討我是想說是不是了解一下好那當然"},{"start":15697.099,"end":15724.33,"text":"應該要誘因如何要夠因為文化部的預算真的不多然後要我們提出以內政部來講我們可以給他的預算但是跟他自己的本預算有很大的差距因為內政部的預算是非常龐大的所以我想說還是要跟行政院在院會裡面的時候在討論跨部會的部分多多溝通尤其是可能還要更高層級的長官多關心這個部分上我覺得這個還要再加強"},{"start":15725.53,"end":15742.11,"text":"那我們希望說這個對於18處的前提點要如何確保其保存的一個維護及管理策略跟國際的標準接軌剛剛也有委員提到我們實際所登錄的點跟看到具體的現況有一點差距我想這個部分上"},{"start":15742.771,"end":15768.167,"text":"我覺得就像今天我們所提到18處的前點阿里山生鐵為例如何因應氣候極端的一個問題對文化資產的一個潛在的威脅這個也是我們要去好好的去深究的那針對世界遺產的人才培育以及是否已經規劃長期的工作坊實地的參訪跟國際的合作這個部分呢"},{"start":15770.968,"end":15796.71,"text":"這個部分我們每一年都在做除了縣市針對他們自己主管的這些潛力點可以推出各種教育推廣或是宣傳計畫以外那我們文資局也會透過國際論壇辦理的時間同步的辦理了一些人才培育或者是工作方的這樣子的方式所以目前推動潛力點的教育宣導跟社區參與的成效如何"},{"start":15798.538,"end":15824.915,"text":"各縣市政府都有提報了一些案子啦那我們就是持續的補助那因為有的縣市就報過一次以後就沒有再往下繼續做了那這個事情我們還是用不明的方式補助有用完嗎 這一部分的補助有啊 就是先前來提報的除了做文本的篆理之外其實都有附加了一個推廣教育的計畫那其實他們都結案了啦但只是說怎麼樣年度上鼓勵縣市政府持續的提案"},{"start":15825.973,"end":15828.743,"text":"因為你剛剛說就申請一次後續就沒再申請了嘛"},{"start":15830.086,"end":15857.522,"text":"對啊因為我們都有保溫界就是我們那個藥品都在那可是問題現實政府自己不來申請就沒辦法所以我沒有說就責於你我是說為什麼他只申請一次是覺得他覺得一次就夠了嗎還是他覺得說後續不需要再繼續推廣這是不是可以再幫我們追蹤一下因為你有設立這個補助嘛你也了解一下他們使用的程度還有他的具體的成效有沒有什麼幫助或者是他覺得"},{"start":15858.903,"end":15868.359,"text":"民眾的回應是不是對於這個部分他覺得不需要再辦怎麼會有設立補助讓他們覺得只申請一次這個我們也想去探究一下可以嗎"},{"start":15869.608,"end":15883,"text":"我們再把各縣市申請的情形跟他們執行的計劃內容把這些資料再整理好這也是我剛剛所想去探討所以報告裡面有提到111到112補助8個縣市辦理9案的計劃113到114補助11個縣市辦理12案的計劃"},{"start":15891.528,"end":15900.28,"text":"我都很想請問說次長你覺得這些不管是剛剛所提到九案計劃十二案計劃這些補助計劃的執行成效你滿意嗎你有大概了解嗎"},{"start":15903.171,"end":15930.753,"text":"以參與的人數上來講當然都還是偏少參與的人數上那我想說如何讓這些計畫這些教育計畫或是人才培育計畫能夠再有更有效的進行這文資局會的同仁會跟地方縣市政府一起再來研究因為我是覺得說你的這些補助計畫我覺得都是利益良善的支持可是為什麼他們的一些人數上的推廣"},{"start":15931.954,"end":15955.331,"text":"不夠更有成效那這個部分上我是覺得說尤其這18個點潛力點我覺得他們都是一個很棒的點那為什麼地方政府在配合上在具體的推廣說沒有辦法這麼達到有效所以我們還可以再進一步的去了解計畫上是不是可以再更加精進可能也要協助他們精進他們的計畫不是只是單一的補助"},{"start":15956.491,"end":15966.397,"text":"那讓他們的計畫能夠更完善或是更具吸引力我覺得這個部分上可能也有要仰賴主管機關你們再加油一下我們會跟地方政府一起來努力"},{"start":15967.608,"end":15984.885,"text":"好那另外我想請問一下就是我們現在呢身心障礙者權益保障法相關的問題跟你請教一下依據身心障礙權益保障法第二條文化部負責身心障礙者精神生活之充實與藝文活動參與之規劃"},{"start":15987.668,"end":16013.257,"text":"推動及監督具體的包括推動文化平權促進無障礙藝文活動完善文化設施無障礙的環境協助資訊取得的無障礙等那還有這個文化資訊展覽啊出版品啊無障礙格式的一個推動現況維和未來如何提升數位及無障礙服務的覆蓋率這個部分您可以回答一下嗎"},{"start":16014.582,"end":16030.897,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問對於無障礙的部分我想這個像硬體的部分我們在所有的管社或者是不論是表演或者是展覽的場館裡頭管社一定都會做到無障礙的一個相關的設施坡道或是廁所這些都有符合"},{"start":16031.357,"end":16047.844,"text":"那至於藝文活動的提供方面其實在票卷上依照身心障礙法必須要提供免費的票卷或是半價的票卷這個部分也都在票卷管理辦法裡面都有提到了所以簡單來講就是在基礎面"},{"start":16049.325,"end":16076.776,"text":"環境面的部分大概都做到可是如果更積極的像每一次的特展的時候那這個特展裡面我們怎麼樣讓各種不同障礙別的朋友可以得到這些展覽的形式或者是說剛剛講的表演啦電影啦怎麼樣可以讓各種不同障礙別的人可以去欣賞到我們這些文化創作這個事情我們會逐步的還是用補助的方式然後希望創作單位他可以來對"},{"start":16078.937,"end":16094.356,"text":"各種不同障礙別的朋友提供各這樣的服務無障礙的部分我是蠻關心的那我一剛上任的時候我也去處理我們的這個國慢館無障礙的一些脅迫到的一些問題這個部分我希望你們要再多加注意但是我也要提醒 障別啊"},{"start":16094.776,"end":16110.091,"text":"有很多種視障也是一種障別有很多視障的朋友向我們反映在文化部在身心障礙權益保護的這一個區塊視障是做得比較差根本不及格像是藝文活動的語音導覽"},{"start":16111.232,"end":16137.283,"text":"嚴重不足不是每一場藝文活動都有語音導覽迫使視障者只能去看去被選擇有語音導覽的展覽無法自由選擇想參加的展覽還有表演只能被動配合嚴重影響了文化平權我希望這個文化部應該要精進那今天我就不再讓你再說怎麼精進啊 找我又站起來但是我要提出就是我遇到了這樣的狀況"},{"start":16138.383,"end":16162.35,"text":"也實際遇到的確並不是每一個展覽都一定有語音刀爛這部分真的要想辦法再精進再者市帳之外也有不少深帳朋友向我反映許多展演特別是給外包廠商來執行的部分毫無無障礙的概念說就以購票好了啦有些售票櫃台做的跟成人一樣高輪椅族怎麼購買"},{"start":16163.89,"end":16174.218,"text":"這個部分上 針對現行售票櫃台高度的不符標準我希望你們有一些普查 了解 然後看經濟方案 限期改善這部分可以嗎 你可以答應我嗎一個月給我回應可以嗎"},{"start":16178.641,"end":16195.989,"text":"你後面搖頭很快 我想一個月馬上搖頭兩個月好不好兩個月我們來做一個普查你後面那個搖頭的很快 我有看到啦可以體諒 兩個月這樣可以嗎可以點頭嗎 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員次郎請回好 我們接下來請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":16210.578,"end":16213.519,"text":"你好 我們請次長好 有請次長委員好次長好 次長我國早自2006年就已經在推動這個世界潛力點跟非物質文化遺產潛力點的認列那推動的過程其實是經過了數次的政黨輪替那有一時候會有政策中斷資源分散或者是整體推動缺乏這個穩定性跟延續性"},{"start":16240.465,"end":16260.432,"text":"所以我在上個會期我已經提了文資保存法增訂第十一條之一第十一條之一的修正案是要求政府應該持續推動我國的世界遺產潛力點還有非物質文化遺產的潛力分路分別論列在聯合國的這個教文組織的世界遺產或者是非物質文化遺產的名單"},{"start":16262.833,"end":16279.845,"text":"那目前文化部應該已經盤點我剛剛看很多委員有在問類似的問題18處的潛力點跟12項無形文化潛力點的保存現狀那也有擬定這個優先順序跟這個中央局推動的行程了嗎優先順序的部分的話"},{"start":16280.461,"end":16296.021,"text":"在有形文化資產就是世界遺產部分我們有一個現在主要離推是阿里山那至於無形這部分因為委員們的討論是目前還暫時沒有要排序或者是只集中資源"},{"start":16296.502,"end":16312.332,"text":"那我比較私心因為我們的選區來自嘉義那阿里山它不僅僅是我們嘉義的榮耀它真的其實是全國的一個重要的資產那阿里山的林業鐵道我要特別講這件事情的原因是因為它不僅僅可以"},{"start":16312.992,"end":16332.466,"text":"被我國列入世界遺產的前立點的重要場域它是可以跨國的因為它是橫跨日本的時代到我們現在的民主化的時代它的重要的文化遺產它不僅是我國可以努力去推動它其實是可以跟日本一起努力去推動"},{"start":16333.106,"end":16359.793,"text":"那這就可以把我們現在的外交困境來去打出一個新局就開拓一個新的可能性所以我必須要請這個文化部也好或者是其他部會特別是可以跟外交部一起來聯繫來討論因為它見證的是台灣的山林的開發的歷史那它見證的是包含我們的原住民族鐵道文化還有生態的記憶在所以"},{"start":16360.413,"end":16381.865,"text":"我強烈要求可以跟幾個部會合作第一個就剛剛提到的外交部來去共同來去申請那跟日本的部分其實在上個月我也跟我們蔡議員那共同到日本去把這個相關的概念跟日本國的這個國會議員有做深入的討論"},{"start":16382.845,"end":16405.972,"text":"那我現在除了外交部之外我希望有一個比較大的一個平台跟教育部來合作把這一些阿里山生鐵的這些潛入點的內容也系統性的去融入我們這些高中啊 技高啊或者是大學的地方文化教材那鄉土文化教材或者是公民的素養課程因為只有融入教育的話那可以讓我們所有的民眾有一個榮譽感"},{"start":16406.832,"end":16422.841,"text":"那我們去推動的話就不再只是一個政府的在推動而已是來自民間由下而上由上而下共同來去努力的推動那甚至我剛剛提到外交部之外我還是會要求甚至文化部可以跟僑委會討論因為我們現在要申請的是世界的文化的遺產"},{"start":16424.241,"end":16452.458,"text":"我們包含我們的華語文的課程教會的合作的這些課程都可以把這樣子的文化潛力的這些點納入我們的課程也就是說未來不僅僅是我們國民本身對自己國家的這些重要的遺產是可以去推廣的來台學習華文的或者是在世界各地由我們由台灣的這個華文教育的都能夠同時有這樣子的概念知道說他們的學習語言的時候同時理解我們的文化"},{"start":16452.938,"end":16465.116,"text":"那當他們有機會來到台灣來去觀光的時候他們就知道這是理解而非走過好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 我們會依照建議來好 謝謝 謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":16466.274,"end":16486.055,"text":"好 次長請回我們接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在我們請麥玉珍 麥玉珍 麥玉珍委員不在我們請蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在我們請葉元芝委員"},{"start":16499.612,"end":16502.349,"text":"主席 要不然請文化部次長好 有請次長"},{"start":16508.793,"end":16534.592,"text":"市長好 今天我們在講世界遺產其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個我看到像之前那個呂秀蓮的前副總統有說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去的經濟援助外交模式透過協助友邦維持文化遺產然後一方面鞏固邦誼另一方面也讓台灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作"},{"start":16536.033,"end":16549.849,"text":"那朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似呼籲啦他說要希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂森療養院的連結然後保障樂森院的完整性其實類似的蠻多的但是其實你有發現"},{"start":16552.191,"end":16569.486,"text":"這個已經是2004年或是朱議員當縣長的時候大概都20年前左右所以代表這個東西已經推展很久了市長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼"},{"start":16572.293,"end":16599.325,"text":"當然那個跑步通常我們練跑要有一個終點線那你達到那個終點線的時候是一個截然完成那在推動世界遺產這件事情來講就是因為國際上的生育的這個標準那個終點線我們沒有辦法劃出來的時候所以其實你們報告也有寫啦因為我們不是聯合國的會員沒辦法申請那所以你在沒有辦法達到那個終點線前"},{"start":16600.708,"end":16601.441,"text":"你的目標是什麼"},{"start":16602.932,"end":16611.655,"text":"我們的目標就是希望比如說那個終點縣市假設是一個遠程目標的話那你的進程目標跟中程目標是什麼當然我們這個潛力點每一個潛力點它的該有的文本或它該有的符合世界遺產的那種審核標準的這個事情這個我們要先準備好這是第一階段那接下來當然就是因為適宜在所謂的檢核的時候他們除了這些資料它的監測或者是維護的狀況"},{"start":16632.441,"end":16652.139,"text":"也是他們的重點所以這18個潛力點他必須要一直在一個維護好的狀態下他才有機會如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格我們有機會參加資格考的時候所以你的意思是說反正我們都全部準備好等到有一天我們可以申請就趕快就是給出去機會是留給準備好的人嘛"},{"start":16652.719,"end":16680.461,"text":"但所以這就不能夠成為一個就是說二十多年來好像感覺大家沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦那我實際上文化部也一直在推動我們都知道譬如說文化部有一個你們有成立一個台灣世界遺產的推動會嘛那這上面是委員的名單有文化部長市長本人也在裡面啦還有國防部外交部農業部內政部還有一些專家學者等等有非常多人大家也是定期開會"},{"start":16682.163,"end":16709.583,"text":"所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮"},{"start":16710.882,"end":16738.26,"text":"他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛"},{"start":16738.98,"end":16767.099,"text":"那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那太五個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎"},{"start":16770.054,"end":16780.299,"text":"市長謝謝委員我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢了沿路大家一直檢討起來的確他們的沒有啦你們外部也一樣啦你們是主政機關嘛我問你這是正常現象嗎"},{"start":16781.636,"end":16807.652,"text":"我們不認為這是正常的現象我們也努力想要改善推進度所以其實透過這最近這三次的推動會召開的時候就不斷的提醒然後也拜託內政部可以加速他們這個文本傳禮的一個進度那內政部當然他們有解說是因為他們沒有申請過這個世界遺產的這類的經驗所以他們希望文化部能夠給予新的我想是這樣子因為如果說"},{"start":16808.533,"end":16828.476,"text":"我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情我覺得大家也沒有不會有什麼意見但是陳如我剛剛講的這已經二十多年了嘛然後到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有嘛然後你講說哎呀萬一機會來了我們要準備好就沒有準備好嘛所以就會讓大家覺得這個這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛"},{"start":16829.605,"end":16852.679,"text":"對不對 地方政府也會覺得說你這個玩真的嗎連你們內政部你們委員之一的文本都沒有 你是玩真的嗎你們自己中央都玩假的 你要我配合你幹嘛對不對 所以我真的覺得這個很多指標大家檢驗下去會不會認為說文化部有把這個當一回事在看我是希望說下一次如果還有機會"},{"start":16854.229,"end":16870.39,"text":"你們要報告這個內容的話應該要把大家認為原本要有的就補起來這是第一件事情第二件事情我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情"},{"start":16872.029,"end":16886.422,"text":"還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院它被個人提報為歷史建築因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報"},{"start":16887.506,"end":16912.82,"text":"然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會刊結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個"},{"start":16914.591,"end":16935.718,"text":"那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權的人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛"},{"start":16937.473,"end":16961.43,"text":"對 你先確定有或沒有假設你認為有 你再來通知我們嘛在沒有的情況之下把他們叫來就第一個老民第二個其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築他其實是反對的嘛因為只要一旦他的鄰近的建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關的單位被列為文化資產"},{"start":16962.651,"end":16988.953,"text":"他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響所以他們都是反彈的所以這個事情等於是老民而且沒有效益那為什麼按照規定主辦單位要這個應該是新北市文化局主辦單位因為我們法律就是這樣規定的我們法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定然後私刑細則也是這樣規定所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":16991.594,"end":17015.127,"text":"市長這應該是您主管的業務我們做一個溝通跟討論剛剛講的兩個意見一個是說你們先審了之後可是第二個意見馬上表示其實有很多的居民是反對他們的這個所有裡面被列為歷史建築所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話他們就沒有機會去表達他的反對"},{"start":17015.327,"end":17029.782,"text":"也不見得喔你可以專家學者先做初步的認定嘛假設沒有文資價值就排除了嘛那有文資價值再去邀請所有權人來做開會嘛你就可以不用老民了嘛"},{"start":17031.008,"end":17045.281,"text":"對 所以這我剛講那個沒有矛盾跟衝突嘛這個是這主要是因為法規寫死在這裡所以主辦機關必須這樣子做基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改或者是文化部如果認為需要修法"},{"start":17045.942,"end":17064.148,"text":"那就可以解決這個問題就是說你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定覺得有潛力有必要召開做全能的會議的時候再召開沒有的話就不要召開就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨"},{"start":17065.808,"end":17094.154,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我想這真的是一個蠻特殊的案例啦所有權人達到六百多位那這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上面來解釋你今天也不是說六百多位問題啊你今天就算是只有五位十位他也是一樣我覺得老民啊因為這是關係到他們的權益的問題是沒有錯所以我的意思是說希望能夠由他們來表達意見沒錯所以我的意思是說你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候你找他來嘛表達意見嘛那如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響譬如說"},{"start":17095.613,"end":17105.601,"text":"專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值那對他就沒有影響嘛就不用找他來嘛所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關嘛"},{"start":17108.889,"end":17135.426,"text":"因為文資法必須要我們必須滿足民眾的權益然後可是也有文資團體之所以有人會提報一定認為他有文資上面的一個價值所以這個文資價值如何透過一個公眾的參與討論過程去確認那如果只有專家學者我們比較擔心是專家學者一旦確認說他有文資價值的時候我坦白講在目前的法規裡面民眾要反對就來不及他就會被限制"},{"start":17138.128,"end":17162.838,"text":"文資價值就是潛在或什麼的或你可以訂標準嘛我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況一定有我剛剛可以排除是你願不願意做的問題嘛你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受嘛不能說什麼事情都以這個官僚的想法為主嘛所以你有考慮說要修法或修改施行細則嗎"},{"start":17163.818,"end":17189.695,"text":"文資法修法我們是一直在進行當中所以這一條目前我們本來是沒有打算要修啦那委員這個提醒我們再來跟各方討論一下看有沒有什麼樣我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了因為這個主管機關邀請專家學者場刊必須通知所有權人這是規定在施行細則裡面所以應該是修改施行細則就可以了"},{"start":17190.447,"end":17192.553,"text":"我們研究一下 我們來研議檢討好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員 次長請回"},{"start":17201.684,"end":17221.834,"text":"我們今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有萬美玲委員謝榮介委員林建啟委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":17222.814,"end":17234.827,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆之部分請相關機關盡速書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"162255","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162255","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5643200b4c75efe5c13060ab8db497a762147c2ef1f362baa4aa28f55c24be561275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"09:42:22 - 09:49:12","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:42:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:49:12+08:00","duration":410,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","id":"公聽會-2025052933","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.395343750000002,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.90971875,"end":33.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.18596875,"end":36.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.25721875,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.828468750000006,"end":60.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.612218750000004,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.05159375000001,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.82471875,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.56471875000001,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.66034375,"end":139.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.63784375,"end":163.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.73534375,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.20034375,"end":209.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.56784375,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.35909375000003,"end":267.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.51659375,"end":272.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.46096875,"end":274.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.57034375,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.48096875000005,"end":281.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.99534375,"end":283.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.29471875,"end":304.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.01721875000004,"end":304.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.63721875000005,"end":306.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.73409375,"end":310.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.29034375000003,"end":318.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.73221875,"end":362.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.91096875,"end":363.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.07971875000004,"end":365.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.42534375,"end":368.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.42909375000005,"end":379.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.10659375,"end":383.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.13971875000004,"end":387.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.37971875000005,"end":408.45659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.289,"end":0.689,"text":"謝謝主席啊"},{"start":20.326,"end":35.423,"text":"各位專家學者還有招致委員首先真的很樂見今天訴詔委特別安排了這個依司法施行細則修正草案的公聽會讓我們可以公開透明納入公民的參與廣納意見"},{"start":37.345,"end":53.054,"text":"进行充分的讨论跟社会沟通刚刚也听了很多专家学者针对于在这个过程里面希望能够提供建言给我们的主管机关做重要的参考那本次医师法的施行细则的修正"},{"start":53.934,"end":83.214,"text":"是針對近年來持外國醫學跟牙醫學歷回國參加考試的人數啊真的是在攀升當中融合好像是會受到一些影響那基於維持國內醫師人力培育制度及規劃的完整性將相關的審查機制明確提升到法律位階這就是我們透過今天在這個修正過程當中希望能夠持續去探討的地方在方向上入法"},{"start":84.127,"end":103.216,"text":"規範就是強化醫療品質跟病人安全並回應全球醫學教育流動性重要的一步所以我們也知道其實這是希望能夠讓整體的制度可以更為完整不過張志偉剛才提到如果讓透明一致性也要同時來維持"},{"start":104.517,"end":120.275,"text":"那其實醫療不是考試制度的產物醫療本身的重點絕對不是考試本身而是要信任跟訓練的成果這樣才有辦法對台灣民眾的健康跟他的醫療的成果可以得到一個好的呈現"},{"start":122.757,"end":138.372,"text":"從這個維持醫療品質出發相關制度的設計必須要有重要的三點第一個就是醫療人力的穩定發展第二個就是要品質的安全保障第三個就是一定要有病患的信任反正若不相信,你會落後或沒用"},{"start":139.953,"end":160.663,"text":"所以一定要把自己做好同時也要取得這個變化的信任那這個三者之間要取得平衡所以本席期待相關的修法都可以同步往這個三個目標來持續的邁進那這份細則草案可以看到衛護部在制度上強化的努力剛剛我們次長也跟大家做了報告那如果從維護穩定醫療品質的根本出發"},{"start":164.024,"end":184.298,"text":"還是要回歸到原本醫師的總量管制醫療本身其實是成本很高的一個訓練過程當中的產物所以這個總量管制還是他有一個重要的一個部分那這樣才能作為長遠規劃的起點所以以下我們提出一些補充意見"},{"start":185.259,"end":208.485,"text":"跟提醒能夠引發社會各界進一步的思考跟討論第一點就是總量管制的一致性首先我們希望提醒衛福部這邊就是臨床訓練的資源真的很珍貴也很有限包括師資、設備、儀器以及病例數等所以才會有醫師人力的這個總量管控的機制"},{"start":209.665,"end":232.777,"text":"以免訓練的量能不足而危害到未來的醫療品質那以目前的牙醫系為例的話目前國內每一年招生名額是391名這391名裡面就包括一般招生371名國防醫學20名那歷年來都是依照這個臨床訓練資源病患數量及教學醫院的容量等條件來進行細緻的這個總額總量規劃"},{"start":235.859,"end":251.371,"text":"那像在108年的時候那成大的醫學政策的這個亞醫學系也就是在其他學校檢照之下才能夠成立確保總額的不變這個大家都很清楚那就不僅是醫療資源的分配問題就是對醫學生訓練品質的基本保障"},{"start":252.051,"end":262.581,"text":"那可是近年來因為國外牙醫學歷返台人數快速的攀升遠遠超過這個實習的容量才會造成這個排隊的難題這也是大家目前共同面對的問題那當實習資源面臨擠壓不僅衝擊整體的訓練品質"},{"start":267.806,"end":294.537,"text":"同時也使本土醫學生跟國外學歷反台人員之間出現了國內總量嚴格控管跟國外未明確設限的落差這種制度的不一致性除了公平性以外更可能對整體醫療訓練體系造成長遠的影響剛剛很多專家學者也都有提出這樣的問題跟質疑第二個部分是名額的控管要非常的嚴謹"},{"start":296.438,"end":308.595,"text":"98年由衛生署教育部考選部跟醫界專家所做的這個會議結論裡面就有提到決議這個國外醫學系當然包括這個亞醫學系的畢業生實質融合為國內醫學生"},{"start":311.378,"end":333.781,"text":"的這個人額的10%就是說是十分之一那以亞裔為例的話是剛剛講過391人的總額所以現在是39位那103年將國外學歷、雅科實習名額就從30名又提高到50名這50個名額比例不僅超過共識的十分之一甚多"},{"start":334.542,"end":353.775,"text":"而且事實上也比國內現在其他的八所牙醫學系當中的五所包括台大29名陽明的38名成大20名中國46名國防20名的招生名額還要多所以當前50人的名額已經超過這個標準如果再一次擴大的話將會進一步壓縮到教學空間影響到整體的醫療品質"},{"start":355.296,"end":378.112,"text":"那在今天的這個書面報告裡面衛生部已經明確的表示要將國外亞醫學系的畢業生迄今維持在每年50名不會再提高所以本席這些方面的方向表示肯定並呼籲這樣的限額應該持續的嚴格執行且不得再隨意擴張就是50名不希望會借用任何的名義來增加"},{"start":380.173,"end":408.269,"text":"或者將會對過去本國醫學生所建立的總額管制嚴謹的限制失去的基礎那總額管制不是形式而是基於台灣訓練量所做出的謹慎安排來維護穩定台灣醫療相關的品質所以我想期待透過這樣的說明也讓大家透過所有專家學者的這些意見讓我們主管機關做一個慎重的參考以上"}]}},{"id":"162253","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162253","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5649898100b43bc289f060ab8db497a762147c2ef1f362baa4a1b3ed4d2a5df194e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:29:32 - 09:35:48","影片長度":"00:06:16","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:29:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:35:48+08:00","duration":376,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「醫師法施行細則」公聽會）","id":"公聽會-2025052933","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.45971875,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.69471875,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.04846875,"end":41.813468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.62346875,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.53034375,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.18409375,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.81346875,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.96784375,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.57721875000001,"end":251.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.35034375,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.34096875,"end":258.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.18034375,"end":301.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.13159375000004,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.91534375000003,"end":361.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.20221875000004,"end":366.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.09596875,"end":373.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.54221875,"end":376.51221875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.13,"end":0.854,"text":"委員 花言"},{"start":9.253,"end":36.132,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝蘇昭偉今天願意舉辦這個公聽會讓各界有機會針對醫師法實行細則的修正案再一次進行對話跟釐清我知道這幾年關於這個國外醫學生的這個爭議在社群跟輿論間不斷的升高這個爭議不斷的這個升高我可以理解國內醫療學生的焦慮"},{"start":37.192,"end":41.595,"text":"當然我也看到國外ER學生面對制度的變動面對資格的不確定這樣的無力感那我要先提醒大家就是今天這些對立的現象其實是制度缺陷的一個產物它不是任何人的錯"},{"start":58.243,"end":77.311,"text":"這是制度缺陷的一個產物那我覺得唯一不能躲的就是政府政府是責無旁貸尤其是這個衛福部當你的規範比較曖昧當你的審查標準不清楚的時候當你的資訊揭露不完整的時候很容易造成大家的誤解"},{"start":78.492,"end":86.679,"text":"甚至演變成貼標籤跟群體的攻擊我覺得這不是我們台灣社會所樂見的啦這樣也沒辦法幫助有助於這個台灣這個醫療體系的一個健全那這一次衛福部希望能夠提升規範的這個衛接這本來是一件好事情就政策面來說那修法的內容有一些會讓各界產生疑慮啦那我是希望衛福部能夠好好是正式面對"},{"start":106.235,"end":110.079,"text":"不是不能修法但是這些疑慮必須好好的去正式面對剛剛也有專家學者有提到因為大家第一個就是會問你採認的標準是不是透明一致我覺得透明跟一致這兩個字兩個字詞是一樣的重要"},{"start":123.152,"end":125.114,"text":"那目前條文是把這個教育部參考名冊跟當地政府或教育評鑑團體也是當地的教育評鑑團體認可可以並列作為學校認定的依據但是社會大眾就會比較好奇說那這些認定機關因為國家現在很多"},{"start":141.727,"end":144.369,"text":"那認定機關當中是不是有具備跟台灣跟我國相當的一個公信力跟審查制度如果這個是比較相當的那大家的信服力就會比較高這個是第一個很重要的這個疑點就是加上當地政府跟當地的教育評鑑團體所認可"},{"start":161.499,"end":165.282,"text":"這個部分是這個爭議點之一我也向衛福部好好正式面對那第二個剛剛也有人提到這個遠距教學跟實習品質的監督的這個問題機制我們知道在防疫或是面對重大災難的時候這個部分允許部分遠距教學"},{"start":179.615,"end":203.755,"text":"這個是一定可以理解的但是因為這個我們今天面臨的是這個醫學醫學是一個尤其是臨床醫學它是一個實作的一個環境那是不是包括遠距教學是不是可以包括臨床這個實作那有沒有配套的一些補救不是不行但是你有沒有配套的補救機制這個衛福部也是要講清楚啊"},{"start":204.535,"end":223.129,"text":"因為這個提出來那就是說要正視這樣的一個問題那第三個剛剛也有人提到就是說見習跟實習我們過去的定義是clockship一個是internship一個是part一個是看一個是實作那這個部分如果說我們把這個實習的時數合併計算的時候那我們只是要問就是說那這樣有沒有確保他的這個臨床的"},{"start":230.675,"end":237.439,"text":"能力維持臨床能力的這個標準是不是有達到那這個部分也要請主管機關是不是能夠清楚說明就是你怎麼去當他合併的時候你怎麼去評估學習成果跟實際操作能力你要有這樣的一個證明標準我想這幾點的這個質疑基本上就是說是存在的那我也要提醒在座的委員們我們是有責任來確保整個制度的設計能夠經得起考驗"},{"start":259.292,"end":285.329,"text":"制度要經得起考驗就是說它不是只保障國人的健康安全當然我們要保障所有學生在一個比較公平競爭下取得的一個職業資格的正當程序那很遺憾這一年多來我看到醫藥界衛福部責任重大醫藥界整個困境醫師人力分布不均其實整個醫療人力也是這樣子性騷醜聞頻繁連最基本的生理食鹽水都需要從國外專案進口沒有執照沒有茶廠的這個產品"},{"start":289.833,"end":306.892,"text":"雖然我們今天是討論醫師法的實行細則但是我覺得衛福部真的要多加油而且很多事你要溝通你要說明你要檢討你要面對當然我們要導致這個情況就是要繼續往前走建立一套涵蓋入學"},{"start":308.728,"end":325.108,"text":"訓練考核到職業的品質是不是能夠很完整的評估的制度那不只是醫師牙醫師取得執照之後就覺得他們一輩子我們從來沒有這麼想包括我自己是藥師就是好醫師好藥師那目前是只靠的繼續教育的學分可能是不夠的"},{"start":326.569,"end":348.496,"text":"因為雖然我們很驕傲醫學是台灣第一個領域有繼續學分的這樣不會說照考試就是終身適用但是現在顯然是不太足夠了因為對於隨著醫學的進步然後隨著人民的期待這個部分可能衛福部也要討論也要好好的檢討衛福部真的有責任有義務跟大家好好去對話建立合理的制度"},{"start":348.996,"end":372.246,"text":"所以我也期盼這個主管機關今天在座還有其他主管機關能夠在聽取各方的意見之後對於我們關切的一些爭議點爭議點要提出明確的解釋說明還有你改善的方向這個就是法公佈之後大家要做的事情我們希望讓學歷裁任制度能夠是公平透明的方向來前進好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162270","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162270","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564a660d047321fdadacd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dc42e813f5a017db975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"09:56:17 - 10:08:37","影片長度":"00:12:20","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:56:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:08:37+08:00","duration":740,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.38534375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.16159375,"end":2.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.9672187500000002,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.03471875,"end":3.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.76034375,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.594718750000002,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.61846875,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.250343750000003,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.58346875,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.97284375,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.55346875,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.494093750000005,"end":67.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.53096875,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.06659375000001,"end":71.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.32346875,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.74284375,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.00846875,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.95284375,"end":100.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.11221875000001,"end":109.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.32596875,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.35971875000001,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.47784375,"end":111.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.30034375000001,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.59784375000001,"end":159.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.73159375,"end":183.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.79034375,"end":162.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.00971875000002,"end":163.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.62534375,"end":197.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.00846875000002,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.78784375,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.76409375,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.50596875000002,"end":228.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.99096875,"end":229.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.05409375000002,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.91034375,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.28096875000003,"end":242.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.08159375000002,"end":243.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.07721875000001,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.90409375000002,"end":245.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.32159375,"end":249.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.27034375000002,"end":252.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.24034375000002,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.85159375,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.56346875,"end":279.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.54846875000004,"end":279.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.76346875,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.77596875,"end":309.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.61971875,"end":321.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.10721875,"end":329.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.25784375,"end":338.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.91471875,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.75346875,"end":355.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.48159375,"end":356.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.02159375,"end":357.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.79346875000005,"end":359.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.83971875000003,"end":361.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.69596875,"end":362.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.33284375000005,"end":364.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.10909375,"end":364.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.00346875,"end":365.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.03284375000004,"end":366.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.06221875,"end":369.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.66096875000005,"end":371.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.36534375,"end":371.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.52971875000003,"end":373.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.33534375000005,"end":374.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.19596875,"end":375.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.27596875,"end":379.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.17409375,"end":384.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.48971875,"end":389.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.91096875000005,"end":393.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.23096875000005,"end":404.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.52471875000003,"end":422.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.32346875,"end":450.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.45846875,"end":462.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.99659375000005,"end":464.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.41409375,"end":464.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.20721875000004,"end":465.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.22409375,"end":475.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.04096875000005,"end":481.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.04846875000004,"end":483.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.11971875,"end":485.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.41909375000006,"end":493.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.52346875,"end":495.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.37971875000005,"end":517.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.5534687500001,"end":519.8147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.2197187500001,"end":529.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.27721875,"end":549.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.3415937500001,"end":552.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.8559687500001,"end":553.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.59409375,"end":557.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.58096875,"end":558.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.43721875,"end":560.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.95596875,"end":561.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.81659375,"end":582.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.6697187500001,"end":584.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.71159375,"end":586.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.4878437500001,"end":596.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.91659375,"end":599.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.63346875,"end":603.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.6328437500001,"end":603.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.42596875,"end":606.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.04159375,"end":621.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.27971875,"end":645.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.5165937500001,"end":652.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.31284375,"end":664.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.8215937500001,"end":670.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.2634687500001,"end":678.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.54096875,"end":683.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.02534375,"end":691.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.3490937500001,"end":693.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.52596875,"end":702.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.4653437500001,"end":707.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.75159375,"end":709.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.16471875,"end":720.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.25596875,"end":720.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.3403437500001,"end":726.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.1284687500001,"end":733.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.73471875,"end":735.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.74721875,"end":737.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.02534375,"end":738.71721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.67,"end":11.448,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們工程會陳主委陳主委陳主委早,首先請教一下"},{"start":13.997,"end":37.117,"text":"這其實三令五申啦尤其在你採購法裡面就規定我們這個不管是公家的一個採購尤其這樣的機敏的一些產品根本不能用中國大陸的一些相關的一些產品但是事實上三不五時就聽到而且有時候弄很久才搞清楚那我覺得這算最嚴重的所以我舉這個例子就是說"},{"start":37.677,"end":59.424,"text":"同樣的一個監視系統放在比如說你放在家裡面監管幼稚園看孩童的安全你也可以講在風景區看看我們人流的進出我覺得那個都不是最嚴重就直接裝到軍方下面聯合報這邊寫在軍方954部這個也是前一陣子的才出來的一個新聞那我也說真的"},{"start":60.564,"end":70.663,"text":"有些東西不知道裝到那個營區裝到一些居民的一些單位不知道已經好一陣子了可是我在想這到底出了什麼樣一些問題"},{"start":72.406,"end":99.551,"text":"然後再來譬如說像薑德的一個企業未來在採購法裡面會怎麼處理你先講第二個好不好那這個事情已經發生了那我們也看到了這家公司呢從109年總共標公共工程64個標案這是我們在工程會的一個網站查到的公共工程我不知道你們查的如何啦那我覺得在軍方這種最嚴重的一個樣態"},{"start":101.198,"end":125.009,"text":"罪重的樣態發生了現在還未來現在還在還是繼續可以招標嗎是什麼情況說明一下跟委員說明委員好我們統計的是還包括他的子公司所以我們這邊統計出來的這10年大概總共有71件那韓國的這個"},{"start":130.473,"end":152.126,"text":"這個採購的機關大概有30幾個機關那目前我們是請通行請所有的機關全面去徹查那這個因為他這個要不要停權要不要沒收押標金要不要這個取消他的得標資格這都必須有廠商有機關他來決定那我們會給他一些指導的原則"},{"start":153.027,"end":158.694,"text":"那因為他有一些是屬於比較是隱匿性的那我們也會請他可能必要的時候要拆開來檢驗"},{"start":160.757,"end":183.368,"text":"因為我現在看到很多的案子因為我今天沒有提包括中科院因為它行政法人不見得跟你採購法有最直接的相關可是更機敏的採購法管不到所以現在很多奇奇怪怪的事情持續的發生而且同樣的人或同樣的一個集團同樣的模式不斷在做"},{"start":184.088,"end":204.694,"text":"所以這個部分對於我們公共城市民文規定後面又發現我們原本規定不行的樣態持續的不斷的發生啦是大剌剌的等於無所謂的這種大量的在那邊弄那我就覺得這個的部分如果你沒有立竿見影啊他可能在這一兩年沒事嘛繼續招標"},{"start":205.874,"end":234.485,"text":"所以這個部分我是希望能夠要快好不好 由於軍方這件事應該相關的證據力夠那如果這樣子說真的就是都沒有什麼事會有一個學習效應學習效應 沒問題啊 怕什麼先弄進來再說我覺得這個你們去思考那我必須要提醒啊現在看到很多一些問題啊我是覺得驗收者的能力在目前這些電子產品 高科技產品"},{"start":236.348,"end":255.845,"text":"出現了很大的弱勢就說我們是工人員考上工人員我有這樣的執照我有這種身份所以我也通過採購法所以我就會看得懂這些電子產品嘛完全不相關所以我們在招標的時候有很多專家協助介入幫我們希望來評選這些廠商的一個能力"},{"start":257.032,"end":279.36,"text":"但是我們在驗收的時候經常就是承辦業管單位那些人在獨立面對我覺得這個部分是給你們做一個思考像這樣的一個產品如果不斷的去做的話那這些針對的問題的可以去處理的這些專家業者怎麼樣去來協助這個政府的一個機構你們有沒有想法"},{"start":282.719,"end":307.665,"text":"這個當然機關他本身的判別能力要有嘛那我們會希望說機關這做採購評審的時候那就針對工程會本身已有的專家學者部分來做挑選不過既然是軍方的這些機敏的設備一而再再而三的採購大陸的相關的產品我想這個機關本身要檢討是否有涉及國安的問題"},{"start":309.725,"end":325.784,"text":"或別是他不見得是不清楚有的是清楚的採購那這部分這個相關機關除了採購法之外有沒有涉及其他國安問題我想可以請機關一併調查好主委啊因為你也是政委啦我覺得可以去協調一些事情啦"},{"start":326.184,"end":355.544,"text":"我覺得很多事情採購法現在的規定反正也已經在市場上實驗這麼久了我覺得該管的尤其有些機敏的機構機敏的功能那就當然要最嚴啦但我覺得你分類分級是一定要的因為你會另外一方面會管到那很無聊的我跟你講那個上次大概幾個月前我看待在某次某處的火災救災救災的一個情況那是消防員那個志工旁邊那個很生氣的在那邊留言"},{"start":357.405,"end":383.405,"text":"採購吧消防隊大飛機無人機不敢飛下雨不能飛狀況不行不能飛很貴幾十萬因為我們只能買這個大家組一組就弄怕飛上去淋到雨會壞那後面怎麼弄結果這些不要講誰啦後面他沒辦法要飛進去那個大工廠他就弄了一台你們禁止的DJI小型的為什麼燒掉兩萬塊"},{"start":385.923,"end":402.703,"text":"燒掉大概兩三萬他就飛進去拍好了哇消防隊就用得很好所以他很深情在那邊所以我在想這些救災的像有些山區救難有些這個部分你政府機構在做的但你這次規定讓他覺得弄得非常辛苦他花了30萬 50萬"},{"start":404.625,"end":422.704,"text":"他買的飛機下一天要救災不能用我覺得這個的部分我們希望你能夠找真的去把它能不能分級分類沒有機敏的這個的部分我覺得應該要適度救災救難民生的這個部分你要適度的考量可以嗎"},{"start":423.805,"end":449.395,"text":"對於所有的無人載具那政府部門採購的無人機無人艇之類的我們現在已經請行政院的財政部跟主計總署修改相關的財產規定這個不能視為是財產而是一種消耗品所以各機關有了這些無人機之後他才能夠放心的去使用否則會不小心摔掉或者是說在那個財產"},{"start":450.555,"end":450.855,"text":"好 這個主委"},{"start":465.613,"end":480.687,"text":"這個我是覺得因為我們有時候你們也是呕心瀝血在想辦法去防範但你要知道我們現在看到了很多的少數少數的一些業者他也是呕心瀝血"},{"start":482.116,"end":499.553,"text":"再繞道 規避再隱藏那怎麼樣用這樣剛剛講很多的方式去做處理那我再講一個就是營造業缺供的問題我是覺得這次從108年開始 事實上在疫情之前就已經有"},{"start":500.414,"end":522.929,"text":"這整體營造業這是從國土署的資料所以包括了公家的工程私人工程都有但整體營造業缺工的一個情況那疫情這邊是爆量爆量那到112年統計了適當到比108年就恢復到還是缺工的一個情況依舊那我們特別看一下我這邊這個來做結論在112年當這個缺工情況總共營造業缺工了五萬兩千多人"},{"start":530.334,"end":558.601,"text":"那其中承攬政府工程的 承攬政府工程的國土組織的資料大概佔百分之一半啊 百分之五十啊兩萬六千多人是做政府工程的那你再看下面的表格呢那這些承攬政府工程兩萬六千人的缺工呢缺工 那先看普通工我們只看合計就好了普通工四千多人技術性的勞工 就要技術性的大概佔百分之六十"},{"start":561.032,"end":582.967,"text":"60.8%大概一萬將近一萬六千人其他工地主任稍微管理階級的話大概五千八百人所以我希望你們不管是在國內補足這些勞工的能力人力或者從國外移工因為已經談了好久了不知道最具體的落實的策略是什麼但是我是覺得有個很重要的不是來這裡"},{"start":585.751,"end":602.799,"text":"然後都在補普通工啊就我要抱歉我都不太會我要焊接我要把我都不太會所以這技術性的一個勞工是一個最大的基層的一個缺口未來不管是在討論外國的移工要來支援那在外國如何去培訓"},{"start":604.5,"end":621.067,"text":"或者還要在國內怎麼樣去培訓那這要到納入思考那國內的很多的培訓的一個機制這些培訓出來的人到底有沒有到這些的位置上針對去工作我倒是覺得給你一個政策上面的思考好不好那你做個結論你來說明一下"},{"start":622.787,"end":644.858,"text":"的確是公共工程缺工嚴重那如果是針對公共工程如果說特定的需求那工程會會專案那麼來協調勞動部准許他引進移工我們現在有的引進的移工在國內還會受訓在臺灣甚至電焊已經交到可以考取檢定的執照"},{"start":645.638,"end":669.81,"text":"那這部分很多企業事實上有在進行不過移工有時候他移動性壞就是說他學會執照之後也許會跳或者是被這個聘走了所以目前是有這樣的機制針對公共工程的專案引進那我也知道有些業者他直接就訓練開班訓練訓練甚至指導他去考取檢定考試"},{"start":672.301,"end":692.863,"text":"好 我這樣講的是因為缺工的一個議題壓力對產業界是非常非常大的其實這是公共工程私人的部分也是非常非常大所以其實真的有時候是蠻慘的我們也聽說了很多具有規模品牌的公司很多也被逼著你知道嗎"},{"start":693.644,"end":702.565,"text":"大家想要申請合法的移工嘛或者引進國內這個優先嘛可是就是真沒有辦法所以想要"},{"start":704.271,"end":725.228,"text":"這個合法的移工跟合法的一個國內的專業勞工是求之不到啊沒辦法求到所以現在很多工地啊就是都在工地一進去都是那種違法的一個陰影在那邊不然怎麼辦反正不是這個這一條違法不是移工的違法就是違約的違法哪一條多 哪一條少所以我要拜託"},{"start":726.709,"end":738.26,"text":"這個整體的一個營造業勞工的情況我也拜託啦 因為你這麼能不能多跟多跟這個我們勞動部啊真的要多溝通一下了好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16736","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc1c393f606ce9432199e01fa654b13793fdab1a38f0d348c0b195566b938eae215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-05T08:30:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T13:48:00+08:00","duration":19051,"影片長度":"05:17:31","委員發言時間":"08:30:29 - 13:48:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1784.4778437500001,"end":1788.0722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1789.2703437500002,"end":1792.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1793.2359687500002,"end":1794.4003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1796.4928437500002,"end":1798.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1799.5640937500002,"end":1800.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1800.2728437500002,"end":1802.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1803.2259687500002,"end":1804.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1804.5759687500001,"end":1806.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1809.31784375,"end":1818.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1819.17284375,"end":1824.1678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1825.4334687500002,"end":1830.9178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1831.1540937500001,"end":1850.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1853.2265937500001,"end":1857.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1857.98534375,"end":1860.7359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1864.6847187500002,"end":1867.9078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1878.3028437500002,"end":1934.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1934.1084687500002,"end":1934.1928437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1934.34471875,"end":2009.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2009.86034375,"end":2013.9103437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2014.2984687500002,"end":2030.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2031.6965937500001,"end":2037.9065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2038.3453437500002,"end":2039.7459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2045.5340937500002,"end":2047.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2048.6728437500005,"end":2060.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2061.10971875,"end":2062.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2062.84784375,"end":2073.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2074.30596875,"end":2080.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2081.10659375,"end":2085.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2085.69659375,"end":2086.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2086.84409375,"end":2089.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2089.54409375,"end":2091.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2091.23159375,"end":2093.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2095.0790937500005,"end":2115.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2116.12221875,"end":2118.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2119.0584687500004,"end":2139.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2140.54034375,"end":2144.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2144.45534375,"end":2147.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2147.77971875,"end":2150.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2151.0703437500006,"end":2156.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2156.5547187500006,"end":2167.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2168.2490937500006,"end":2177.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2178.1884687500005,"end":2188.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2189.73096875,"end":2208.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2209.1540937500004,"end":2251.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2253.55221875,"end":2254.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2255.61096875,"end":2272.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2276.38409375,"end":2320.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2320.8497187500006,"end":2324.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2324.49471875,"end":2329.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2330.26596875,"end":2332.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2332.9490937500004,"end":2335.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2335.34534375,"end":2337.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2337.92721875,"end":2339.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2340.10409375,"end":2342.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2343.09096875,"end":2350.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2351.5115937500004,"end":2357.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2357.62034375,"end":2370.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2370.41159375,"end":2373.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2373.95534375,"end":2380.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2380.46909375,"end":2417.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2418.20159375,"end":2439.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2439.59909375,"end":2469.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2473.4840937500003,"end":2476.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2486.78159375,"end":2509.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2509.93409375,"end":2512.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2512.68471875,"end":2522.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2522.69159375,"end":2531.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2531.7703437500004,"end":2535.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2535.48284375,"end":2543.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2543.5322187500005,"end":2570.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2571.46034375,"end":2583.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2583.99846875,"end":2594.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2595.4059687500003,"end":2604.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2605.68284375,"end":2616.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2617.1072187500004,"end":2617.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2618.00159375,"end":2643.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2644.20846875,"end":2646.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2647.1953437500006,"end":2675.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2678.0428437500004,"end":2680.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2682.10971875,"end":2682.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2686.4128437500003,"end":2787.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2789.50221875,"end":2790.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2791.79721875,"end":2795.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2797.1803437500002,"end":2797.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2797.8722187500007,"end":2815.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2815.8272187500006,"end":2819.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2819.0840937500006,"end":2820.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2821.0078437500006,"end":2825.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2831.6559687500003,"end":2839.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2838.3047187500006,"end":2839.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2840.26221875,"end":2840.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2840.9372187500003,"end":2841.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2841.34221875,"end":2841.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2845.9997187500003,"end":2849.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2850.2859687500004,"end":2854.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2855.33159375,"end":2857.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2858.4872187500005,"end":2859.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2860.7147187500004,"end":2862.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2863.56659375,"end":2865.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2866.95846875,"end":2869.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2870.1309687500006,"end":2871.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2871.97034375,"end":2872.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2873.6240937500006,"end":2874.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2875.98659375,"end":2879.1084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2879.5134687500004,"end":2880.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2882.1628437500003,"end":2883.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2884.25534375,"end":2885.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2886.65159375,"end":2888.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2889.0478437500005,"end":2892.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2893.46909375,"end":2896.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2897.26596875,"end":2899.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2900.1178437500002,"end":2902.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2904.97784375,"end":2905.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2905.70346875,"end":2910.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2910.9347187500007,"end":2918.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2919.38909375,"end":2921.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2922.1228437500004,"end":2928.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2928.8728437500004,"end":2930.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2930.4590937500006,"end":2932.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2932.9734687500004,"end":2942.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2942.9972187500007,"end":2944.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2944.46534375,"end":2949.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2949.6628437500003,"end":2950.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2950.23659375,"end":2950.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2950.25346875,"end":2950.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2950.2703437500004,"end":2950.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2950.48971875,"end":2961.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2951.2490937500006,"end":2951.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2954.9784687500005,"end":2955.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2955.01221875,"end":2955.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2955.0290937500004,"end":2956.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2958.01596875,"end":2959.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2960.80034375,"end":2965.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2966.16659375,"end":2966.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2966.21721875,"end":2966.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2966.2509687500005,"end":2966.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2966.3690937500005,"end":2966.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2966.58846875,"end":2968.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2967.34784375,"end":2967.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2968.4784687500005,"end":2973.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2973.8953437500004,"end":2977.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2978.1647187500002,"end":2980.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2979.2615937500004,"end":2979.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2979.34596875,"end":2979.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2979.8184687500006,"end":2979.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2980.0378437500003,"end":2980.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2981.1853437500004,"end":2981.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2981.2022187500006,"end":2983.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2983.44659375,"end":2995.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2986.5684687500006,"end":2987.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2987.66534375,"end":2987.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2994.55034375,"end":2995.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2995.68096875,"end":3000.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2998.6172187500006,"end":3000.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3001.1484687500006,"end":3005.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3002.2115937500002,"end":3002.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3005.2322187500004,"end":3005.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3005.9747187500006,"end":3006.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3006.0253437500005,"end":3006.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3006.97034375,"end":3007.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3007.0378437500003,"end":3025.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3008.87721875,"end":3009.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3023.6765937500004,"end":3029.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3029.6334687500002,"end":3039.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3035.57346875,"end":3035.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3039.6572187500005,"end":3039.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3039.9609687500006,"end":3041.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3041.68221875,"end":3041.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3041.96909375,"end":3048.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3048.31409375,"end":3048.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3048.4490937500004,"end":3048.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3048.8203437500006,"end":3053.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3054.38909375,"end":3054.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3055.8572187500004,"end":3064.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3064.6659687500005,"end":3065.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3066.7078437500004,"end":3074.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3074.2003437500007,"end":3074.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3074.5547187500006,"end":3079.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3078.4697187500005,"end":3079.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3079.58346875,"end":3083.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3081.7940937500007,"end":3082.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3082.0303437500006,"end":3082.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3083.3465937500005,"end":3091.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3083.36346875,"end":3083.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3084.03846875,"end":3084.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3090.8053437500002,"end":3097.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3096.8465937500005,"end":3097.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3097.28534375,"end":3098.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3098.80409375,"end":3099.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3099.81659375,"end":3099.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3100.25534375,"end":3100.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3100.2722187500003,"end":3102.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3101.94284375,"end":3101.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3101.9765937500006,"end":3113.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3114.3122187500003,"end":3119.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3120.4209687500006,"end":3121.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3121.34909375,"end":3122.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3122.78346875,"end":3124.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3124.4034687500007,"end":3126.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3126.5465937500003,"end":3129.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3130.09034375,"end":3131.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3131.8622187500005,"end":3132.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3133.21221875,"end":3136.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3137.1103437500005,"end":3139.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3140.7722187500003,"end":3161.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3162.0684687500006,"end":3164.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3163.06409375,"end":3165.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3165.7978437500005,"end":3166.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3166.65846875,"end":3179.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3179.2978437500005,"end":3193.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3194.0128437500007,"end":3195.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3195.48096875,"end":3196.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3197.35409375,"end":3198.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3198.72096875,"end":3199.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3199.98659375,"end":3201.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3201.97784375,"end":3202.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3202.0622187500003,"end":3216.6759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3216.69284375,"end":3219.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3219.52784375,"end":3228.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3228.26909375,"end":3228.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3228.5390937500006,"end":3228.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3228.5897187500004,"end":3230.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3233.02784375,"end":3234.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3234.1922187500004,"end":3235.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3235.5253437500005,"end":3240.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3240.01409375,"end":3245.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3242.7647187500006,"end":3243.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3246.46034375,"end":3256.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3255.9440937500003,"end":3258.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3258.74534375,"end":3261.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3261.04034375,"end":3261.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3261.05721875,"end":3261.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3261.0740937500004,"end":3261.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3261.8672187500006,"end":3268.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3269.0897187500004,"end":3275.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3275.56971875,"end":3275.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3278.47221875,"end":3282.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3282.03284375,"end":3282.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3282.3365937500002,"end":3282.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3282.9440937500003,"end":3282.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3282.97784375,"end":3285.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3286.67346875,"end":3289.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3289.74471875,"end":3290.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3290.4365937500006,"end":3290.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3297.57471875,"end":3298.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3299.5153437500003,"end":3300.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3307.68284375,"end":3307.8009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3307.8009687500007,"end":3307.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3307.9022187500004,"end":3309.6065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3309.7078437500004,"end":3310.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3311.73284375,"end":3316.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3317.1834687500004,"end":3320.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3321.0984687500004,"end":3323.8322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3323.96721875,"end":3325.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3325.90784375,"end":3327.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3345.1959687500002,"end":3345.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3346.37721875,"end":3350.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3366.64409375,"end":3366.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3366.9647187500004,"end":3367.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3367.0322187500005,"end":3367.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3367.23471875,"end":3367.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3367.9772187500002,"end":3368.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3368.02784375,"end":3368.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3370.32284375,"end":3376.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3377.3259687500004,"end":3377.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3377.3428437500006,"end":3378.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3403.2965937500003,"end":3409.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3409.1522187500004,"end":3410.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3411.04221875,"end":3412.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3413.03346875,"end":3413.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3414.7040937500005,"end":3420.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3493.2403437500006,"end":3496.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3494.6072187500004,"end":3494.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3496.4128437500003,"end":3497.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3507.06096875,"end":3510.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3510.43596875,"end":3510.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3510.68909375,"end":3510.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3560.4872187500005,"end":3562.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3562.3434687500003,"end":3591.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3574.8309687500005,"end":3575.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3575.03346875,"end":3575.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3578.2228437500007,"end":3580.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3580.2647187500006,"end":3580.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3589.02284375,"end":3591.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3591.6384687500004,"end":3591.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3597.4434687500006,"end":3599.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3599.99159375,"end":3603.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3603.1640937500006,"end":3609.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3607.7372187500005,"end":3608.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3610.53846875,"end":3616.1915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3616.79909375,"end":3624.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3624.81471875,"end":3629.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3630.07971875,"end":3638.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3632.0709687500002,"end":3633.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3634.8722187500007,"end":3635.9353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3636.64409375,"end":3637.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3638.43284375,"end":3638.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3638.5509687500007,"end":3641.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3641.6222187500007,"end":3644.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3645.3009687500007,"end":3646.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3647.4440937500003,"end":3649.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3649.8740937500006,"end":3651.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3652.9284687500003,"end":3658.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3659.00346875,"end":3661.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3661.7878437500003,"end":3663.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3663.69471875,"end":3665.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3666.27659375,"end":3667.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3668.3015937500004,"end":3669.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3670.98471875,"end":3679.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3681.3290937500005,"end":3683.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3683.9784687500005,"end":3684.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3684.07971875,"end":3685.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3686.05409375,"end":3692.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3693.22596875,"end":3704.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3705.40971875,"end":3709.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3710.16846875,"end":3723.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3723.06096875,"end":3728.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3728.42721875,"end":3749.9259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3750.4490937500004,"end":3763.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3763.4259687500007,"end":3764.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3764.9784687500005,"end":3777.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3778.37721875,"end":3786.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3786.69659375,"end":3790.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3791.59034375,"end":3793.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3794.0709687500002,"end":3795.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3795.7247187500006,"end":3828.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3802.3397187500004,"end":3802.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3818.8434687500003,"end":3819.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3828.8503437500003,"end":3828.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3828.9347187500007,"end":3828.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3828.9684687500003,"end":3830.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3830.14971875,"end":3843.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3835.51596875,"end":3835.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3838.9922187500006,"end":3839.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3840.9665937500004,"end":3841.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3842.8565937500007,"end":3848.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3847.5478437500005,"end":3864.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3853.4034687500007,"end":3853.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3859.25909375,"end":3860.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3860.9297187500006,"end":3862.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3862.3809687500006,"end":3863.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3863.5284687500007,"end":3865.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3865.3847187500005,"end":3865.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3865.70534375,"end":3867.5109687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3866.2284687500005,"end":3873.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3869.1140937500004,"end":3869.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3872.4215937500003,"end":3873.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3873.3834687500002,"end":3873.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3873.55221875,"end":3876.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3876.3703437500008,"end":3876.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3877.04534375,"end":3894.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3888.8240937500004,"end":3889.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3890.0390937500006,"end":3890.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3890.07284375,"end":3891.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3892.7559687500006,"end":3901.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3896.56971875,"end":3896.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3897.12659375,"end":3898.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3901.9528437500003,"end":3908.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3908.31471875,"end":3909.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3910.06971875,"end":3911.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3911.5378437500003,"end":3913.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3914.0690937500003,"end":3919.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3919.90784375,"end":3925.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3925.98284375,"end":3935.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3936.0740937500004,"end":3944.8322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3944.96721875,"end":3948.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3947.98784375,"end":3948.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3948.0553437500002,"end":3948.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3948.6122187500005,"end":3948.6290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3948.6290937500007,"end":3948.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3950.40096875,"end":3953.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3969.31784375,"end":3971.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3971.6465937500006,"end":3977.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3978.0084687500002,"end":3980.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3981.4003437500005,"end":3997.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3998.0222187500003,"end":3999.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4000.5534687500003,"end":4015.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4015.7409687500003,"end":4017.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4017.4284687500003,"end":4018.1203437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4018.1203437500008,"end":4018.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4018.3565937500007,"end":4019.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4019.63909375,"end":4019.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4021.6472187500003,"end":4032.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4033.0378437500003,"end":4059.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4060.62846875,"end":4067.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4067.14221875,"end":4082.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4082.97096875,"end":4092.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4093.51784375,"end":4107.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4108.114718750001,"end":4109.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4109.36346875,"end":4128.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4128.415343750001,"end":4145.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4146.370343750001,"end":4158.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4157.72721875,"end":4165.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4165.354718750001,"end":4188.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4173.792218750001,"end":4174.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4189.09784375,"end":4199.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4199.54346875,"end":4207.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4207.592843750001,"end":4207.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4208.13284375,"end":4208.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4208.97659375,"end":4212.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4212.30096875,"end":4228.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4229.294093750001,"end":4264.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4237.79909375,"end":4237.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4237.815968749999,"end":4238.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4264.66409375,"end":4265.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4265.64284375,"end":4268.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4268.899718750001,"end":4269.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4269.91221875,"end":4276.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4277.387843750001,"end":4282.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4282.36596875,"end":4286.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4286.44971875,"end":4286.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4286.50034375,"end":4287.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4287.44534375,"end":4310.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4310.81721875,"end":4352.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4351.907843749999,"end":4355.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4356.497843749999,"end":4376.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4361.948468750001,"end":4361.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4361.982218749999,"end":4362.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4362.67409375,"end":4362.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4377.33846875,"end":4378.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4378.97534375,"end":4380.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4380.983468750001,"end":4418.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4418.20971875,"end":4434.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4420.31909375,"end":4420.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4434.20721875,"end":4455.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4456.026593750001,"end":4457.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4457.96721875,"end":4465.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4465.79721875,"end":4479.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4479.5165937500005,"end":4491.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4492.24034375,"end":4510.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4510.65096875,"end":4510.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4510.769093749999,"end":4511.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4510.78596875,"end":4516.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4514.5322187500005,"end":4514.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4516.0340937500005,"end":4518.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4517.4178437499995,"end":4532.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4521.38346875,"end":4522.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4532.40284375,"end":4532.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4532.68971875,"end":4532.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4532.74034375,"end":4532.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4532.82471875,"end":4533.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4533.0272187499995,"end":4533.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4533.06096875,"end":4533.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4533.98909375,"end":4537.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4553.73284375,"end":4560.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4561.259093750001,"end":4561.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4561.967843750001,"end":4566.878468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4568.02596875,"end":4569.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4570.37159375,"end":4574.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4574.92784375,"end":4601.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4583.17971875,"end":4583.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4601.30346875,"end":4606.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4607.02409375,"end":4611.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4611.81659375,"end":4644.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4622.63346875,"end":4623.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4623.544718749999,"end":4623.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4644.655343750001,"end":4644.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4644.95909375,"end":4647.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4647.47346875,"end":4664.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4647.62534375,"end":4648.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4651.118468750001,"end":4651.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4658.93159375,"end":4658.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4658.948468750001,"end":4659.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4659.032843749999,"end":4659.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4664.331593749999,"end":4667.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4666.677218750001,"end":4670.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4669.394093749999,"end":4675.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4675.772843750001,"end":4686.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4680.835343750001,"end":4681.206593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4686.33659375,"end":4693.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4688.12534375,"end":4688.142218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4688.142218749999,"end":4688.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4693.542218750001,"end":4697.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4696.630343750001,"end":4700.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4699.36409375,"end":4702.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4702.350968750001,"end":4706.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4705.624718749999,"end":4708.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4706.468468749999,"end":4709.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4709.2528437500005,"end":4775.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4710.265343749999,"end":4710.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4775.706593750001,"end":4793.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4791.974093750001,"end":4792.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4793.49284375,"end":4798.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4798.08284375,"end":4798.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4798.42034375,"end":4846.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4798.47096875,"end":4798.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4840.28721875,"end":4840.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4840.37159375,"end":4840.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4840.439093749999,"end":4840.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4847.762843750001,"end":4856.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4850.73284375,"end":4850.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4850.96909375,"end":4851.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4851.036593750001,"end":4851.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4851.407843749999,"end":4851.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4856.6728437500005,"end":4863.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4862.5115937499995,"end":4921.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4921.4559687500005,"end":4953.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4953.974093750001,"end":4981.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4978.22346875,"end":4979.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4981.56471875,"end":4995.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4995.58784375,"end":5023.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5023.3134687500005,"end":5023.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5023.78596875,"end":5024.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5024.8153437500005,"end":5024.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5025.507218750001,"end":5025.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5025.52409375,"end":5035.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5036.12159375,"end":5038.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5038.28159375,"end":5038.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5039.17596875,"end":5045.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5045.74034375,"end":5077.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5078.562218749999,"end":5087.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5088.53534375,"end":5117.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5118.15096875,"end":5136.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5136.57846875,"end":5137.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5137.0340937500005,"end":5166.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5137.28721875,"end":5137.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5166.5653437500005,"end":5183.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5184.317843750001,"end":5189.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5189.44784375,"end":5199.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5193.936593750001,"end":5194.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5199.72471875,"end":5204.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5205.411593750001,"end":5220.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5220.362843750001,"end":5221.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5222.69159375,"end":5224.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5224.9697187500005,"end":5230.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5229.94784375,"end":5230.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5230.47096875,"end":5234.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5230.8759687500005,"end":5231.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5233.45784375,"end":5236.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5235.11159375,"end":5239.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5237.92971875,"end":5238.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5239.448468750001,"end":5239.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5239.482218749999,"end":5240.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5240.241593750001,"end":5246.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5240.25846875,"end":5240.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5242.722218750001,"end":5243.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5247.19409375,"end":5249.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5261.099093750001,"end":5263.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5267.005343750001,"end":5272.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5273.384093750001,"end":5279.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5280.134093750001,"end":5283.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5284.04909375,"end":5286.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5286.7997187500005,"end":5292.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5292.90846875,"end":5294.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5294.899718750001,"end":5296.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5299.118468750001,"end":5309.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5311.74096875,"end":5311.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5312.669093750001,"end":5319.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5314.812218749999,"end":5315.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5319.216593749999,"end":5327.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5328.227843750001,"end":5333.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5333.340968750001,"end":5353.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5355.16034375,"end":5355.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5356.206593750001,"end":5356.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5357.08409375,"end":5358.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5358.5184687500005,"end":5361.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5361.8934687500005,"end":5362.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5362.61909375,"end":5362.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5362.635968750001,"end":5364.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5364.8465937500005,"end":5384.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5385.06284375,"end":5388.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5389.585343750001,"end":5392.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5392.859093749999,"end":5396.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5396.706593750001,"end":5400.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5403.06846875,"end":5403.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5403.2372187500005,"end":5434.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5433.561593750001,"end":5433.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5434.540343750001,"end":5444.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5444.5809687500005,"end":5449.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5449.94721875,"end":5458.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5458.587218750001,"end":5474.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5475.175343750001,"end":5475.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5476.05284375,"end":5485.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5488.08471875,"end":5490.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5490.58221875,"end":5490.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5490.61596875,"end":5493.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5490.63284375,"end":5500.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5500.960343750001,"end":5500.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5501.36534375,"end":5503.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5503.79534375,"end":5503.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5505.702218750001,"end":5507.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5507.45721875,"end":5524.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5524.28159375,"end":5535.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5537.07284375,"end":5559.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5560.022843750001,"end":5560.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5560.90034375,"end":5561.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5562.25034375,"end":5614.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5614.967843750001,"end":5633.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5633.985968749999,"end":5635.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5636.31471875,"end":5663.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5664.10784375,"end":5665.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5666.149718750001,"end":5670.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5671.09409375,"end":5684.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5684.239718750001,"end":5684.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5684.6278437500005,"end":5699.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5690.12909375,"end":5690.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5690.55096875,"end":5690.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5694.550343750001,"end":5694.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5698.026593750001,"end":5698.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5699.64659375,"end":5699.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5699.69721875,"end":5699.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5699.747843749999,"end":5703.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5703.81471875,"end":5712.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5712.75846875,"end":5728.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5729.17784375,"end":5740.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5741.2772187499995,"end":5742.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5742.28971875,"end":5742.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5742.829718749999,"end":5743.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5743.04909375,"end":5751.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5752.161593750001,"end":5761.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5752.19534375,"end":5752.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5761.965968750001,"end":5787.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5787.02534375,"end":5787.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5787.85221875,"end":5787.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5787.90284375,"end":5787.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5787.919718749999,"end":5788.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5788.00409375,"end":5801.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5788.544093750001,"end":5788.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5792.07096875,"end":5792.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5793.96096875,"end":5796.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5800.305968750001,"end":5800.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5801.0653437500005,"end":5805.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5805.874718749999,"end":5836.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5815.341593749999,"end":5816.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5822.5809687500005,"end":5822.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5836.6209687499995,"end":5840.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5841.16034375,"end":5849.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5849.63159375,"end":5859.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5859.452843749999,"end":5869.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5868.599093750001,"end":5868.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5868.835343750001,"end":5869.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5869.1728437500005,"end":5870.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5870.894093750001,"end":5883.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5883.98909375,"end":5894.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5895.39659375,"end":5934.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5933.7197187500005,"end":5934.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5934.3778437500005,"end":5990.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5991.06096875,"end":6011.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6012.30659375,"end":6044.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6045.263468749999,"end":6047.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6047.372843749999,"end":6047.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6047.524718750001,"end":6047.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6047.575343750001,"end":6049.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6049.38096875,"end":6049.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6049.397843750001,"end":6049.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6050.27534375,"end":6058.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6058.965968750001,"end":6081.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6063.555968750001,"end":6063.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6074.49096875,"end":6074.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6081.089093750001,"end":6090.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6090.606593750001,"end":6102.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6099.263468749999,"end":6100.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6100.022843750001,"end":6100.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6100.107218749999,"end":6100.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6100.19159375,"end":6100.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6100.88346875,"end":6100.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6103.98846875,"end":6109.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6109.32096875,"end":6109.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6109.70909375,"end":6122.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6126.95534375,"end":6131.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6132.270968750001,"end":6138.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6138.5653437500005,"end":6144.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6144.876593750001,"end":6170.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6170.796593749999,"end":6177.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6177.25971875,"end":6193.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6190.405343750001,"end":6190.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6191.18159375,"end":6191.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6193.79721875,"end":6194.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6203.2978437500005,"end":6204.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6205.47471875,"end":6207.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6208.259093750001,"end":6209.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6209.760968750001,"end":6213.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6214.09784375,"end":6216.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6216.645968750001,"end":6220.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6220.84784375,"end":6221.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6222.315968750001,"end":6231.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6231.90096875,"end":6239.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6240.372218750001,"end":6241.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6242.12721875,"end":6252.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6253.04534375,"end":6253.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6253.93971875,"end":6254.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6255.07034375,"end":6265.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6266.3934687500005,"end":6279.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6279.75846875,"end":6312.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6312.66471875,"end":6318.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6319.482218749999,"end":6337.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6338.280968749999,"end":6339.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6339.782843750001,"end":6341.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6342.550343750001,"end":6351.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6352.067843750001,"end":6352.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6353.13096875,"end":6365.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6366.42846875,"end":6408.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6408.63284375,"end":6409.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6409.5272187499995,"end":6411.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6413.2059687500005,"end":6421.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6422.45346875,"end":6425.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6426.4022187499995,"end":6433.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6433.74284375,"end":6437.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6438.77159375,"end":6445.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6446.2978437500005,"end":6447.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6448.2215937500005,"end":6449.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6450.19596875,"end":6457.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6458.059718750001,"end":6458.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6458.903468750001,"end":6459.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6459.91596875,"end":6466.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6467.77971875,"end":6468.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6469.298468750001,"end":6470.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6471.4247187500005,"end":6474.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6475.6434687500005,"end":6477.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6478.61346875,"end":6485.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6485.63346875,"end":6487.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6487.69221875,"end":6506.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6504.21284375,"end":6511.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6507.33471875,"end":6507.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6512.81909375,"end":6517.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6518.2528437500005,"end":6518.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6518.30346875,"end":6518.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6519.14721875,"end":6519.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6519.19784375,"end":6529.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6521.72909375,"end":6522.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6528.5634687500005,"end":6538.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6539.21159375,"end":6540.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6541.1522187499995,"end":6542.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6542.2997187500005,"end":6548.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6549.555968750001,"end":6550.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6551.142218750001,"end":6568.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6562.026593750001,"end":6562.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6562.718468749999,"end":6563.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6568.810343749999,"end":6576.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6576.792218750001,"end":6579.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6579.745343750001,"end":6581.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6582.0740937499995,"end":6583.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6584.03159375,"end":6584.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6585.0947187500005,"end":6585.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6586.22534375,"end":6587.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6587.6259687500005,"end":6595.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6595.60784375,"end":6600.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6601.41284375,"end":6604.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6605.007218750001,"end":6607.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6608.2978437500005,"end":6610.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6610.626593750001,"end":6619.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6621.173468750001,"end":6622.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6622.47284375,"end":6625.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6626.995343750001,"end":6627.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6629.7459687499995,"end":6631.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6631.75409375,"end":6635.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6632.91846875,"end":6632.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6632.96909375,"end":6633.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6635.31471875,"end":6635.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6635.6522187499995,"end":6635.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6635.669093750001,"end":6635.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6636.25971875,"end":6637.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6637.3397187499995,"end":6638.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6638.706593750001,"end":6640.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6640.64721875,"end":6646.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6646.84034375,"end":6651.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6651.885968750001,"end":6655.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6655.817843750001,"end":6663.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6662.60159375,"end":6668.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6664.626593750001,"end":6671.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6669.2840937500005,"end":6669.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6671.30909375,"end":6671.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6671.477843750001,"end":6673.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6671.49471875,"end":6671.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6672.38909375,"end":6673.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6673.38471875,"end":6673.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6673.823468750001,"end":6675.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6673.958468750001,"end":6684.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6679.358468750001,"end":6679.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6679.51034375,"end":6679.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6679.5947187500005,"end":6679.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6683.239718750001,"end":6683.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6684.33659375,"end":6684.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6685.99034375,"end":6686.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6687.15471875,"end":6691.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6692.45346875,"end":6693.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6694.967843750001,"end":6696.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6698.73096875,"end":6701.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6701.86971875,"end":6702.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6703.388468749999,"end":6711.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6711.57284375,"end":6728.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6728.68409375,"end":6729.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6730.47284375,"end":6731.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6731.92409375,"end":6734.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6735.0965937500005,"end":6736.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6737.189093750001,"end":6739.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6740.73284375,"end":6745.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6746.30159375,"end":6747.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6748.1747187500005,"end":6752.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6752.9334687499995,"end":6753.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6753.86159375,"end":6761.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6761.6747187500005,"end":6767.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6767.83409375,"end":6768.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6769.589093750001,"end":6779.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6779.342843750001,"end":6781.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6781.958468750001,"end":6782.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6783.038468750001,"end":6799.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6799.87971875,"end":6801.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6801.415343750001,"end":6802.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6803.17034375,"end":6805.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6807.20346875,"end":6808.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6809.54909375,"end":6810.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6811.253468750001,"end":6811.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6811.79346875,"end":6813.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6813.95346875,"end":6814.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6814.780343750001,"end":6819.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6820.14659375,"end":6822.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6822.981593750001,"end":6828.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6829.88346875,"end":6830.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6832.212218750001,"end":6838.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6840.177218750001,"end":6845.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6846.370343750001,"end":6853.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6854.21721875,"end":6859.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6859.85346875,"end":6863.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6864.139718750001,"end":6872.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6873.083468750001,"end":6875.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6876.52596875,"end":6876.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6876.9647187499995,"end":6877.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6880.32284375,"end":6883.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6895.88159375,"end":6897.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6897.80534375,"end":6901.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6900.404093749999,"end":6901.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6901.56846875,"end":6907.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6907.66034375,"end":6910.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6910.866593750001,"end":6912.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6911.153468750001,"end":6916.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6917.0428437499995,"end":6922.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6922.79721875,"end":6949.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6949.544093750001,"end":6973.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6973.79346875,"end":6978.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6978.839093750001,"end":6981.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6981.876593750001,"end":6992.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6992.2040937500005,"end":6992.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6992.811593750001,"end":7010.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7000.405343750001,"end":7001.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7002.413468750001,"end":7002.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7004.69159375,"end":7004.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7004.708468750001,"end":7005.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7010.78346875,"end":7012.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7012.97721875,"end":7042.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7043.014718750001,"end":7077.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7077.54096875,"end":7087.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7089.28596875,"end":7091.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7092.07034375,"end":7103.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7104.135968750001,"end":7108.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7108.6415937500005,"end":7123.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7125.39846875,"end":7149.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7125.550343750001,"end":7126.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7149.81659375,"end":7154.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7154.794718749999,"end":7158.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7159.350968750001,"end":7191.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7191.497843749999,"end":7208.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7204.2215937500005,"end":7205.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7207.41096875,"end":7207.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7207.444718750001,"end":7207.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7208.06909375,"end":7218.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7210.00971875,"end":7210.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7213.28346875,"end":7213.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7213.57034375,"end":7213.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7214.987843750001,"end":7215.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7215.510968750001,"end":7215.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7218.21096875,"end":7245.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7246.1728437500005,"end":7246.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7246.9490937499995,"end":7261.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7261.259093750001,"end":7265.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7264.85346875,"end":7266.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7266.96284375,"end":7270.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7269.932843750001,"end":7293.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7294.14846875,"end":7299.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7300.08846875,"end":7334.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7334.02409375,"end":7334.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7336.04909375,"end":7347.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7347.67596875,"end":7360.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7349.802218750001,"end":7350.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7350.038468750001,"end":7350.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7350.05534375,"end":7350.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7350.20721875,"end":7350.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7350.44346875,"end":7350.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7350.460343750001,"end":7350.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7350.510968750001,"end":7350.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7350.6122187500005,"end":7351.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7351.202843750001,"end":7351.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7361.04096875,"end":7367.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7362.10409375,"end":7362.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7362.66096875,"end":7364.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7364.82096875,"end":7367.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7367.149718750001,"end":7367.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7368.06096875,"end":7400.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7376.31284375,"end":7376.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7382.843468750001,"end":7384.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7398.267218750001,"end":7398.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7401.0009687500005,"end":7419.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7405.810343749999,"end":7407.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7412.340968750001,"end":7413.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7414.51784375,"end":7415.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7415.935343749999,"end":7416.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7416.8465937500005,"end":7416.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7416.880343750001,"end":7417.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7417.33596875,"end":7418.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7419.647843750001,"end":7446.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7447.13721875,"end":7447.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7447.93034375,"end":7460.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7460.82284375,"end":7462.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7462.544093750001,"end":7470.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7465.260968750001,"end":7465.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7465.27784375,"end":7466.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7467.555968750001,"end":7469.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7469.479718750001,"end":7471.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7471.2684687500005,"end":7488.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7473.00659375,"end":7473.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7486.60784375,"end":7623.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7488.71721875,"end":7489.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7624.206593750001,"end":7644.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7645.55346875,"end":7649.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7649.856593750001,"end":7652.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7653.231593750001,"end":7656.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7656.62346875,"end":7681.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7682.22284375,"end":7693.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7693.42784375,"end":7719.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7720.545968750001,"end":7728.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7721.794718749999,"end":7722.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7722.975968750001,"end":7723.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7731.919718749999,"end":7734.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7751.292218750001,"end":7796.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7798.47471875,"end":7801.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7801.343468750001,"end":7801.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7801.545968750001,"end":7801.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7801.56284375,"end":7801.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7801.866593750001,"end":7804.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7804.026593750001,"end":7804.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7806.33846875,"end":7813.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7813.341593749999,"end":7818.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7818.62346875,"end":7835.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7824.29346875,"end":7824.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7824.968468750001,"end":7825.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7829.895968750001,"end":7830.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7835.852843750001,"end":7840.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7840.05471875,"end":7840.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7840.307843750001,"end":7923.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7925.44221875,"end":7932.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7932.85034375,"end":7935.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7933.32284375,"end":7934.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7934.79096875,"end":7934.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7935.24659375,"end":7935.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7936.05659375,"end":7938.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7938.8915937500005,"end":7946.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7945.37159375,"end":7945.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7945.405343750001,"end":7945.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7945.962218750001,"end":7946.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7946.02971875,"end":7946.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7946.95784375,"end":7958.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7948.358468750001,"end":7949.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7949.0165937500005,"end":7949.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7958.63534375,"end":7959.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7959.968468750001,"end":7967.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7961.79096875,"end":7962.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7964.237843750001,"end":7964.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7965.419093750001,"end":7993.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7994.342843750001,"end":8082.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8084.35409375,"end":8133.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8133.94971875,"end":8141.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8142.184718750001,"end":8180.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8181.2840937500005,"end":8181.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8182.60034375,"end":8191.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8185.823468750001,"end":8186.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8191.493468750001,"end":8236.634093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8237.02221875,"end":8266.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8267.66721875,"end":8269.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8271.29534375,"end":8273.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8273.65784375,"end":8273.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8273.809718750003,"end":8273.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8273.97846875,"end":8274.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8274.012218750002,"end":8274.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8274.02909375,"end":8274.180968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8274.180968749999,"end":8274.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8274.19784375,"end":8274.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8274.214718750001,"end":8274.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8274.40034375,"end":8275.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8275.159718750001,"end":8276.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8276.965343750002,"end":8277.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8277.03284375,"end":8277.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8277.35346875,"end":8327.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8285.21721875,"end":8285.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8292.034718750001,"end":8292.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8325.953468750002,"end":8329.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8329.379093750002,"end":8331.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8330.712218750003,"end":8333.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8332.230968750002,"end":8333.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8333.26034375,"end":8364.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8338.710968750001,"end":8339.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8365.407218750002,"end":8427.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8414.496593750002,"end":8415.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8424.722843750002,"end":8436.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8428.519718750002,"end":8428.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8430.578468750002,"end":8431.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8432.637218750002,"end":8432.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8434.425968750002,"end":8434.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8435.87721875,"end":8437.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8441.344718750002,"end":8443.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8445.192218750002,"end":8455.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8456.39721875,"end":8527.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8528.89221875,"end":8528.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8528.925968750002,"end":8529.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8529.01034375,"end":8529.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8529.027218750001,"end":8529.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8529.70221875,"end":8529.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8529.719093750002,"end":8529.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8529.73596875,"end":8552.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8552.972843750002,"end":8562.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8562.405968750001,"end":8576.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8577.188468750002,"end":8601.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8601.910343750002,"end":8608.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8608.20471875,"end":8626.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8629.180343750002,"end":8630.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8632.082843750002,"end":8636.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8633.36534375,"end":8633.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8634.242843750002,"end":8687.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8689.407218750002,"end":8690.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8690.993468750003,"end":8719.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8720.102843750003,"end":8756.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8757.02534375,"end":8758.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8758.898468750001,"end":8760.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8761.058468750001,"end":8800.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8801.05221875,"end":8802.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8802.75659375,"end":8808.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8808.780968750001,"end":8811.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8811.59909375,"end":8820.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8814.012218750002,"end":8814.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8820.964718750001,"end":8852.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8855.946593750003,"end":8857.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8858.730968750002,"end":8861.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8861.414093750001,"end":8874.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8866.34159375,"end":8868.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8874.25596875,"end":8874.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8874.99846875,"end":8877.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8876.46659375,"end":8877.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8877.68159375,"end":8877.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8877.715343750002,"end":8877.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8878.32284375,"end":8882.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8880.33096875,"end":8880.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8882.946593750003,"end":8885.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8887.418468750002,"end":8910.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8891.29971875,"end":8891.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8910.75659375,"end":8911.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8911.212218750003,"end":8916.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8916.61221875,"end":8972.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8973.17721875,"end":8996.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8997.375968750002,"end":9019.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9022.215968750003,"end":9029.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9038.972843750002,"end":9040.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9041.234093750001,"end":9041.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9041.453468750002,"end":9041.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9041.90909375,"end":9041.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9041.976593750001,"end":9042.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9042.90471875,"end":9048.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9048.473468750002,"end":9048.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9050.92034375,"end":9051.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9051.96659375,"end":9052.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9052.03409375,"end":9052.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9052.101593750001,"end":9052.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9052.118468750003,"end":9052.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9539.75534375,"end":9542.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9549.99846875,"end":9553.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9554.622218750003,"end":9555.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9557.54159375,"end":9558.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9559.144718750002,"end":9563.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9568.13909375,"end":9574.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9575.05784375,"end":9579.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9580.457843750002,"end":9580.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9581.21721875,"end":9581.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9583.343468750001,"end":9585.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9587.00534375,"end":9587.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9588.102218750002,"end":9594.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9594.93659375,"end":9595.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9596.87721875,"end":9597.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9597.97409375,"end":9623.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9623.843468750001,"end":9643.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9644.160968750002,"end":9680.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9680.72909375,"end":9689.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9690.094718750002,"end":9691.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9692.204093750002,"end":9693.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9694.195343750001,"end":9744.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9745.59659375,"end":9745.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9745.613468750002,"end":9790.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9791.226593750001,"end":9809.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9809.67096875,"end":9816.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9817.112843750001,"end":9825.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9826.090343750002,"end":9833.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9833.76846875,"end":9883.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9883.988468750002,"end":9886.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9887.38034375,"end":9898.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9898.77096875,"end":9912.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9913.03034375,"end":9915.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9915.156593750002,"end":9915.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9915.477218750002,"end":9915.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9916.000343750002,"end":9917.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9916.675343750001,"end":9921.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9918.24471875,"end":9918.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9921.88971875,"end":9923.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9923.99909375,"end":9925.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9925.36596875,"end":9927.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9927.82971875,"end":9927.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9928.403468750003,"end":9930.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9930.47909375,"end":9931.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9931.508468750002,"end":9932.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9932.571593750003,"end":9934.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9934.714718750001,"end":9936.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9936.73971875,"end":9938.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9938.410343750002,"end":9947.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9947.472218750001,"end":9958.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9958.74471875,"end":9995.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9996.359093750001,"end":10000.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10000.797218750002,"end":10003.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10003.61534375,"end":10037.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10038.42846875,"end":10049.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10050.274718750003,"end":10060.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10060.68659375,"end":10073.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10074.81096875,"end":10080.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10082.10096875,"end":10090.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10091.68596875,"end":10092.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10093.84596875,"end":10104.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10104.81471875,"end":10111.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10112.324093750001,"end":10120.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10120.57596875,"end":10126.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10126.65096875,"end":10162.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10162.544093750003,"end":10190.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10190.97846875,"end":10202.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10202.90909375,"end":10203.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10203.95534375,"end":10203.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10206.11534375,"end":10206.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10206.13221875,"end":10206.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10208.089718750001,"end":10213.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10222.382843750001,"end":10223.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10224.711593750002,"end":10226.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10227.74909375,"end":10230.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10230.921593750001,"end":10232.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10232.69346875,"end":10233.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10234.11096875,"end":10238.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10239.22409375,"end":10244.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10244.759093750003,"end":10245.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10246.21034375,"end":10249.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10249.112843750001,"end":10252.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10252.825343750003,"end":10253.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10254.394718750002,"end":10261.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10262.359718750002,"end":10263.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10264.48596875,"end":10272.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10272.737843750001,"end":10274.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10275.15096875,"end":10281.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10282.609718750002,"end":10283.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10284.044093750003,"end":10285.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10286.187218750001,"end":10294.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10294.169093750003,"end":10295.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10296.852218750002,"end":10306.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10306.335968750001,"end":10334.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10334.56784375,"end":10336.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10337.655968750001,"end":10348.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10349.384093750003,"end":10349.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10350.04221875,"end":10366.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10364.58846875,"end":10365.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10366.54596875,"end":10368.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10368.55409375,"end":10376.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10376.82284375,"end":10387.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10387.504718750002,"end":10395.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10393.63034375,"end":10393.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10395.16596875,"end":10399.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10400.49846875,"end":10401.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10401.780968750001,"end":10403.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10403.856593750003,"end":10408.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10410.10034375,"end":10412.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10413.390968750002,"end":10413.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10414.99409375,"end":10417.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10417.25534375,"end":10417.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10417.660343750002,"end":10417.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10419.128468750001,"end":10419.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10419.769718750002,"end":10424.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10425.13596875,"end":10427.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10427.954093750002,"end":10447.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10448.27159375,"end":10459.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10460.15159375,"end":10461.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10460.55659375,"end":10461.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10461.653468750003,"end":10462.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10463.391593750002,"end":10464.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10465.36596875,"end":10466.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10466.969093750002,"end":10468.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10470.25971875,"end":10477.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10478.02221875,"end":10491.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10491.62346875,"end":10495.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10496.21346875,"end":10498.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10498.99784375,"end":10500.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10501.309718750003,"end":10502.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10502.609093750001,"end":10507.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10508.481593750003,"end":10520.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10517.03721875,"end":10520.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10520.68221875,"end":10520.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10520.98596875,"end":10530.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10530.58784375,"end":10531.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10530.621593750002,"end":10535.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10536.578468750002,"end":10536.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10539.34596875,"end":10540.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10540.03784375,"end":10540.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10540.628468750001,"end":10541.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10540.66221875,"end":10554.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10554.38159375,"end":10555.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10555.37721875,"end":10568.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10569.19784375,"end":10572.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10574.15909375,"end":10575.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10576.47096875,"end":10578.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10579.00221875,"end":10581.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10582.309718750003,"end":10585.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10586.44409375,"end":10587.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10587.945968750002,"end":10589.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10590.59534375,"end":10590.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10590.61221875,"end":10622.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10622.708468750003,"end":10640.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10638.722843750002,"end":10647.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10647.953468750002,"end":10649.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10649.97846875,"end":10650.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10651.88534375,"end":10652.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10653.35346875,"end":10662.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10662.769718750002,"end":10669.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10670.262218750002,"end":10671.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10671.477218750002,"end":10673.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10673.114093750002,"end":10673.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10673.164718750002,"end":10673.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10673.265968750002,"end":10674.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10681.29846875,"end":10683.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10683.390968750002,"end":10684.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10685.51721875,"end":10686.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10687.62659375,"end":10688.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10690.039718750002,"end":10693.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10709.68221875,"end":10716.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10719.70596875,"end":10728.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10728.261593750001,"end":10766.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10766.601593750001,"end":10766.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10768.57596875,"end":10769.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10770.43221875,"end":10800.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10785.29909375,"end":10785.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10785.383468750002,"end":10785.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10785.50159375,"end":10785.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10785.51846875,"end":10785.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10785.585968750001,"end":10785.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10800.60471875,"end":10815.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10815.555968750003,"end":10826.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10828.043468750002,"end":10828.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10828.92096875,"end":10828.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10828.95471875,"end":10829.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10829.039093750001,"end":10830.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10831.33409375,"end":10832.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10832.86971875,"end":10846.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10846.96034375,"end":10851.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10852.410968750002,"end":10855.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10855.48221875,"end":10938.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10918.39221875,"end":10918.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10918.965968750003,"end":10921.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10933.731593750003,"end":10933.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10933.96784375,"end":10934.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10934.035343750002,"end":10934.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10938.06846875,"end":10938.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10938.13596875,"end":10938.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10938.203468750002,"end":10953.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10957.035968750002,"end":10967.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10967.34659375,"end":10981.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10981.21784375,"end":10982.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10983.411593750003,"end":11010.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11010.968468750001,"end":11029.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11031.45471875,"end":11031.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11031.47159375,"end":11032.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11032.922843750002,"end":11078.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11078.957843750002,"end":11084.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11085.57284375,"end":11087.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11087.024093750002,"end":11103.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11103.56159375,"end":11103.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11106.430343750002,"end":11117.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11117.618468750003,"end":11120.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11121.972218750001,"end":11122.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11122.613468750002,"end":11135.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11135.286593750003,"end":11137.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11137.76721875,"end":11137.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11137.817843750003,"end":11137.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11137.868468750003,"end":11140.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11137.902218750001,"end":11138.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11140.93971875,"end":11144.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11144.80409375,"end":11145.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11145.22596875,"end":11155.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11153.39346875,"end":11179.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11180.579093750002,"end":11186.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11187.109718750002,"end":11191.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11191.24409375,"end":11197.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11197.47096875,"end":11201.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11202.68534375,"end":11217.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11219.172218750002,"end":11220.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11220.03284375,"end":11220.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11220.657218750002,"end":11221.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11221.26471875,"end":11221.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11222.344718750002,"end":11259.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11259.63846875,"end":11259.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11259.95909375,"end":11259.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11259.97596875,"end":11260.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11260.70159375,"end":11260.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11260.81971875,"end":11260.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11260.85346875,"end":11260.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11260.887218750002,"end":11273.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11273.20596875,"end":11305.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11306.31471875,"end":11307.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11308.20471875,"end":11308.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11308.356593750003,"end":11308.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11308.390343750001,"end":11308.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11308.879718750002,"end":11308.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11311.613468750002,"end":11314.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11324.421593750001,"end":11325.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11325.82221875,"end":11354.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11354.914718750002,"end":11356.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11355.690968750001,"end":11360.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11356.602218750002,"end":11356.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11358.00284375,"end":11359.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11361.344093750002,"end":11366.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11366.609093750001,"end":11368.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11368.634093750003,"end":11369.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11370.33846875,"end":11372.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11372.27909375,"end":11378.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11377.45971875,"end":11379.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11380.109093750001,"end":11385.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11384.00721875,"end":11391.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11386.555343750002,"end":11386.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11392.12409375,"end":11422.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11423.86596875,"end":11423.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11423.882843750001,"end":11435.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11430.86909375,"end":11430.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11435.72909375,"end":11436.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11436.134093750003,"end":11436.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11436.25221875,"end":11437.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11437.028468750003,"end":11440.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11438.63159375,"end":11439.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11440.62284375,"end":11445.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11446.22534375,"end":11449.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11449.97159375,"end":11470.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11475.621593750002,"end":11481.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11480.44784375,"end":11486.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11487.50159375,"end":11490.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11487.94034375,"end":11487.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11487.99096875,"end":11488.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11488.41284375,"end":11488.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11490.707843750002,"end":11505.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11505.524093750002,"end":11511.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11505.675968750002,"end":11507.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11511.51471875,"end":11521.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11521.082843750002,"end":11529.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11530.65096875,"end":11532.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11532.65909375,"end":11533.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11534.363468750002,"end":11536.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11537.164718750002,"end":11539.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11537.45159375,"end":11540.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11540.62409375,"end":11545.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11545.855343750001,"end":11545.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11545.872218750003,"end":11546.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11546.00721875,"end":11546.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11546.05784375,"end":11546.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11546.26034375,"end":11548.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11550.614093750002,"end":11620.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11555.305343750002,"end":11555.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11620.78034375,"end":11649.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11649.41721875,"end":11664.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11664.790343750003,"end":11677.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11677.395968750003,"end":11685.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11681.547218750002,"end":11681.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11681.73284375,"end":11681.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11686.255343750003,"end":11688.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11688.989093750002,"end":11689.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11689.00596875,"end":11689.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11689.05659375,"end":11694.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11689.07346875,"end":11690.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11690.035343750002,"end":11691.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11692.27971875,"end":11692.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11694.50721875,"end":11698.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11698.28721875,"end":11703.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11699.434718750003,"end":11699.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11703.974093750003,"end":11704.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11704.19346875,"end":11758.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11758.952843750001,"end":11760.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11760.809093750002,"end":11786.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11787.235343750002,"end":11793.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11794.339718750001,"end":11820.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11822.250968750002,"end":11827.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11827.988468750002,"end":11833.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11833.86096875,"end":11861.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11862.19409375,"end":11887.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11887.793468750002,"end":11920.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11921.121593750002,"end":11926.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11926.74096875,"end":11936.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11934.23346875,"end":11935.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11936.359718750002,"end":11963.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11961.452843750001,"end":11970.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11970.210968750001,"end":11972.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11973.383468750002,"end":11985.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11983.59284375,"end":12023.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12024.734093750001,"end":12026.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12026.03346875,"end":12050.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12026.843468750001,"end":12027.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12048.76409375,"end":12048.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12048.899093750002,"end":12049.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12049.169093750003,"end":12050.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12050.02971875,"end":12050.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12050.97471875,"end":12087.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12087.711593750002,"end":12087.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12087.930968750003,"end":12087.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12087.981593750003,"end":12087.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12087.99846875,"end":12089.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12089.027843750002,"end":12089.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12090.175343750001,"end":12106.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12107.40471875,"end":12111.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12109.379093750002,"end":12116.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12116.247218750003,"end":12152.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12123.419093750003,"end":12123.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12124.54971875,"end":12124.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12124.70159375,"end":12124.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12124.97159375,"end":12125.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12125.39346875,"end":12125.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12125.54534375,"end":12125.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12125.612843750001,"end":12125.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12125.629718750002,"end":12125.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12153.254093750002,"end":12155.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12155.481593750003,"end":12158.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12159.362843750001,"end":12160.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12160.61159375,"end":12164.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12165.15096875,"end":12172.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12172.59284375,"end":12179.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12182.380343750003,"end":12182.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12183.29159375,"end":12196.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12196.825343750003,"end":12199.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12199.407218750002,"end":12202.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12202.95096875,"end":12204.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12205.195343750001,"end":12209.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12210.71346875,"end":12218.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12219.67409375,"end":12240.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12240.801593750002,"end":12267.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12267.88596875,"end":12296.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12297.265343750001,"end":12329.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12330.762218750002,"end":12337.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12338.96346875,"end":12349.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12349.594718750002,"end":12368.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12369.102218750002,"end":12405.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12405.50159375,"end":12412.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12412.875968750002,"end":12468.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12469.27221875,"end":12471.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12471.786593750003,"end":12569.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12569.594093750002,"end":12577.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12578.149718750003,"end":12582.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12582.60471875,"end":12609.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12611.190968750001,"end":12620.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12621.77159375,"end":12635.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12635.828468750002,"end":12673.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12673.476593750001,"end":12704.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12704.83034375,"end":12798.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12799.00971875,"end":12818.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12819.20909375,"end":12842.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12842.985968750003,"end":12923.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12923.969093750002,"end":12935.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12936.844718750002,"end":12938.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12938.34659375,"end":12939.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12939.527843750002,"end":12945.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12946.31159375,"end":12947.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12947.94846875,"end":12950.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12950.597843750002,"end":12966.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12967.33784375,"end":12978.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12981.344093750002,"end":12981.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12982.204718750003,"end":12983.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12983.38596875,"end":12985.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12985.360343750002,"end":12988.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12989.730968750002,"end":12993.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12994.962218750003,"end":12997.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12997.61159375,"end":12999.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12999.687218750001,"end":13012.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13012.883468750002,"end":13018.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13018.43534375,"end":13026.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13026.737843750001,"end":13028.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13029.032843750003,"end":13029.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13033.58909375,"end":13034.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13035.05721875,"end":13035.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13035.68159375,"end":13037.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13038.077843750001,"end":13039.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13039.64721875,"end":13040.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13040.625968750002,"end":13046.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13046.65034375,"end":13048.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13048.75971875,"end":13049.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13050.109718750002,"end":13052.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13053.062843750002,"end":13055.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13056.184718750003,"end":13057.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13058.10846875,"end":13060.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13062.124718750001,"end":13066.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13067.187218750001,"end":13068.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13069.937843750002,"end":13071.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13071.70971875,"end":13073.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13073.49846875,"end":13075.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13075.472843750002,"end":13077.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13077.61596875,"end":13085.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13085.715968750003,"end":13088.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13088.753468750001,"end":13090.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13090.89659375,"end":13092.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13094.997218750003,"end":13095.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13096.07721875,"end":13096.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13097.07284375,"end":13098.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13098.50721875,"end":13098.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13099.418468750002,"end":13100.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13101.61221875,"end":13102.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13104.177218750003,"end":13106.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13106.55659375,"end":13115.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13115.43284375,"end":13120.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13121.59221875,"end":13127.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13127.903468750003,"end":13135.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13136.020343750002,"end":13139.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13139.665343750003,"end":13142.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13143.192218750002,"end":13144.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13144.778468750003,"end":13146.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13147.579718750003,"end":13148.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13149.11534375,"end":13151.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13152.034718750001,"end":13153.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13153.941593750002,"end":13155.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13156.371593750002,"end":13158.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13161.653468750003,"end":13166.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13166.83409375,"end":13170.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13170.462218750003,"end":13173.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13173.70221875,"end":13175.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13175.49096875,"end":13180.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13180.671593750001,"end":13181.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13181.86971875,"end":13183.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13184.485343750002,"end":13188.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13189.497218750003,"end":13192.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13193.53034375,"end":13194.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13194.99846875,"end":13196.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13197.192218750002,"end":13198.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13198.84596875,"end":13198.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13199.183468750001,"end":13200.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13200.60096875,"end":13201.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13202.575343750003,"end":13203.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13204.634093750003,"end":13207.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13208.44784375,"end":13208.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13210.35471875,"end":13213.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13214.421593750001,"end":13218.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13218.555968750003,"end":13218.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13219.09596875,"end":13221.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13222.454093750002,"end":13223.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13223.517218750003,"end":13225.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13225.91346875,"end":13229.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13229.085968750001,"end":13232.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13232.730968750002,"end":13237.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13237.860968750003,"end":13239.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13239.700343750003,"end":13240.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13241.235968750003,"end":13244.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13244.30721875,"end":13245.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13246.349093750003,"end":13246.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13247.344718750002,"end":13249.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13250.280968750001,"end":13252.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13254.22971875,"end":13254.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13255.360343750002,"end":13256.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13256.81159375,"end":13257.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13257.773468750001,"end":13259.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13259.309093750002,"end":13261.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13266.278468750003,"end":13273.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13273.500968750002,"end":13276.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13277.989718750003,"end":13279.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13279.54221875,"end":13280.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13281.786593750003,"end":13284.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13286.477843750003,"end":13290.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13291.03409375,"end":13292.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13292.789093750001,"end":13293.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13295.82659375,"end":13296.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13298.594093750002,"end":13308.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13308.85409375,"end":13311.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13313.055968750003,"end":13314.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13317.899093750002,"end":13319.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13321.898468750001,"end":13325.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13325.695343750001,"end":13333.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13334.048468750003,"end":13340.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13338.689093750003,"end":13341.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13341.642218750003,"end":13341.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13341.895343750002,"end":13343.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13343.312843750002,"end":13344.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13344.19034375,"end":13357.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13348.172843750002,"end":13349.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13357.555343750002,"end":13364.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13364.609093750001,"end":13365.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13366.48221875,"end":13369.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13370.954093750002,"end":13372.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13372.03409375,"end":13373.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13373.755343750003,"end":13374.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13376.168468750002,"end":13387.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13388.06534375,"end":13389.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13389.68534375,"end":13398.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13396.958468750003,"end":13405.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13405.800968750002,"end":13406.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13406.391593750002,"end":13409.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13406.77971875,"end":13406.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13409.63159375,"end":13412.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13409.918468750002,"end":13416.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13417.680968750003,"end":13422.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13423.485968750003,"end":13428.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13429.898468750001,"end":13430.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13431.214718750001,"end":13437.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13438.15034375,"end":13438.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13438.977218750002,"end":13439.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13439.78721875,"end":13442.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13443.246593750002,"end":13444.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13445.37284375,"end":13464.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13447.347218750001,"end":13447.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13464.188468750002,"end":13469.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13471.292843750001,"end":13478.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13479.88221875,"end":13481.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13482.04221875,"end":13493.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13493.331593750001,"end":13519.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13521.15846875,"end":13527.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13527.43596875,"end":13537.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13537.30784375,"end":13552.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13552.664093750001,"end":13554.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13554.689093750003,"end":13559.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13560.224093750003,"end":13562.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13562.40096875,"end":13564.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13564.67909375,"end":13565.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13565.421593750001,"end":13565.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13566.14721875,"end":13568.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13568.374718750001,"end":13573.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13573.36971875,"end":13575.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13576.559093750002,"end":13579.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13580.609093750001,"end":13585.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13586.110343750002,"end":13589.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13589.957843750002,"end":13591.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13591.442843750003,"end":13594.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13595.83034375,"end":13596.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13596.74159375,"end":13601.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13602.141593750002,"end":13603.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13603.99784375,"end":13605.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13605.550343750001,"end":13605.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13606.52909375,"end":13608.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13609.110968750003,"end":13613.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13614.780968750001,"end":13619.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13619.92784375,"end":13621.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13621.598468750002,"end":13622.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13623.269093750001,"end":13629.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13630.00221875,"end":13636.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13636.937843750002,"end":13653.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13654.11659375,"end":13659.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13660.360343750002,"end":13668.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13669.472843750002,"end":13672.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13673.45534375,"end":13705.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13706.327843750001,"end":13715.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13716.047843750002,"end":13739.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13740.48284375,"end":13743.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13743.85784375,"end":13745.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13745.54534375,"end":13750.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13751.535968750002,"end":13752.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13753.324718750002,"end":13756.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13756.547843750002,"end":13765.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13765.508468750002,"end":13767.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13768.410968750002,"end":13772.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13773.642218750003,"end":13785.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13786.24784375,"end":13789.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13789.42034375,"end":13795.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13795.79909375,"end":13825.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13825.769093750001,"end":13839.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13840.500968750002,"end":13841.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13841.78346875,"end":13842.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13842.644093750001,"end":13858.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13858.945343750001,"end":13860.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13861.71284375,"end":13901.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13903.69784375,"end":13905.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13906.07721875,"end":13911.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13913.265968750002,"end":13913.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13914.008468750002,"end":13915.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13916.30346875,"end":13923.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13923.593468750001,"end":13938.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13939.23659375,"end":13941.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13941.46409375,"end":13951.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13951.94346875,"end":13952.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13952.48346875,"end":13955.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13956.90471875,"end":13965.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13965.98346875,"end":13968.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13969.493468750003,"end":13972.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13973.020343750002,"end":13980.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13981.59284375,"end":13986.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13988.005343750003,"end":13991.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13991.39721875,"end":14000.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14001.31971875,"end":14006.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14006.702843750001,"end":14013.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14013.53721875,"end":14018.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14018.363468750002,"end":14020.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14021.333468750003,"end":14025.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14028.269093750001,"end":14028.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14029.872218750003,"end":14033.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14033.348468750002,"end":14054.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14054.391593750002,"end":14056.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14056.281593750002,"end":14064.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14064.887843750003,"end":14066.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14067.300968750002,"end":14077.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14078.13471875,"end":14080.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14080.969718750002,"end":14083.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14083.99034375,"end":14084.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14085.84659375,"end":14086.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14086.825343750003,"end":14088.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14088.85034375,"end":14091.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14093.474093750003,"end":14102.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14103.109718750002,"end":14109.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14110.129718750002,"end":14112.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14113.251593750003,"end":14115.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14116.06971875,"end":14116.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14116.710968750001,"end":14121.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14121.48659375,"end":14128.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14128.60784375,"end":14131.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14131.476593750001,"end":14135.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14136.74159375,"end":14138.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14139.593468750001,"end":14141.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14141.939093750003,"end":14144.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14145.094718750002,"end":14168.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14168.517218750003,"end":14172.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14172.921593750001,"end":14175.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14175.925343750001,"end":14188.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14189.340968750003,"end":14190.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14192.074718750002,"end":14193.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14194.36971875,"end":14194.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14194.386593750001,"end":14197.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14197.035968750002,"end":14202.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14203.667843750001,"end":14208.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14209.45596875,"end":14211.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14212.594718750002,"end":14213.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14213.97846875,"end":14216.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14216.796593750001,"end":14221.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14221.926593750002,"end":14226.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14227.090343750002,"end":14236.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14237.164718750002,"end":14240.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14240.72534375,"end":14255.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14255.659718750001,"end":14256.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14256.70596875,"end":14257.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14257.81971875,"end":14259.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14259.28784375,"end":14261.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14261.363468750002,"end":14262.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14262.747218750003,"end":14283.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14283.75659375,"end":14285.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14286.000968750002,"end":14293.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14293.847843750002,"end":14304.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14305.727843750003,"end":14318.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14318.957843750002,"end":14340.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14340.38909375,"end":14351.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14351.712218750003,"end":14354.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14354.918468750002,"end":14356.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14357.21346875,"end":14370.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14370.76409375,"end":14381.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14381.648468750001,"end":14391.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14391.18284375,"end":14402.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14402.97846875,"end":14424.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14425.540343750003,"end":14427.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14428.66221875,"end":14430.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14431.14284375,"end":14432.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14433.40409375,"end":14438.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14439.242843750002,"end":14440.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14440.761593750001,"end":14442.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14442.195968750002,"end":14442.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14442.989093750002,"end":14448.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14448.625343750002,"end":14452.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14452.911593750003,"end":14454.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14454.24471875,"end":14462.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14462.749718750001,"end":14465.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14466.37784375,"end":14467.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14468.63909375,"end":14472.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14472.250343750002,"end":14478.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14478.91596875,"end":14485.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14485.63221875,"end":14498.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14499.351593750001,"end":14499.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14500.617218750001,"end":14513.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14514.79221875,"end":14521.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14521.47471875,"end":14524.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14525.27159375,"end":14527.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14527.954718750003,"end":14531.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14532.34221875,"end":14537.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14537.759093750003,"end":14544.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14545.52159375,"end":14557.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14557.266593750002,"end":14567.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14567.47596875,"end":14595.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14596.112843750001,"end":14610.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14611.01346875,"end":14663.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14663.882843750001,"end":14702.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14704.720343750003,"end":14709.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14709.023468750001,"end":14709.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14709.715343750002,"end":14709.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14709.985343750002,"end":14713.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14713.934093750002,"end":14716.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14716.70159375,"end":14725.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14725.915343750003,"end":14726.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14727.079718750003,"end":14728.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14729.40846875,"end":14734.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14734.724093750003,"end":14736.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14737.15409375,"end":14738.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14739.195968750002,"end":14750.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14751.227843750003,"end":14752.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14752.864718750003,"end":14760.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14760.74534375,"end":14762.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14762.68596875,"end":14787.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14788.335968750001,"end":14789.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14790.242843750002,"end":14807.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14807.94471875,"end":14814.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14815.352843750003,"end":14817.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14818.035968750002,"end":14821.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14822.355968750002,"end":14823.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14824.313468750002,"end":14824.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14824.988468750002,"end":14826.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14826.33846875,"end":14829.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14830.067843750003,"end":14836.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14837.121593750002,"end":14837.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14838.82596875,"end":14841.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14841.35721875,"end":14848.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14848.714718750001,"end":14849.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14850.874718750001,"end":14883.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14884.13534375,"end":14896.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14896.79159375,"end":14898.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14898.765968750002,"end":14899.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14900.132843750001,"end":14901.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14902.47846875,"end":14912.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14912.384093750003,"end":14913.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14913.750968750002,"end":14921.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14921.90159375,"end":14922.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14923.16721875,"end":14926.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14926.94721875,"end":14948.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14948.648468750001,"end":14955.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14955.516593750002,"end":14958.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14959.39784375,"end":14962.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14962.435343750003,"end":14964.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14964.93284375,"end":14976.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14976.357218750003,"end":14979.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14979.782843750003,"end":14980.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14979.985343750002,"end":14988.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14981.976593750001,"end":14983.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14988.945968750002,"end":14989.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14989.857218750003,"end":14989.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14991.51096875,"end":14999.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14999.57721875,"end":15001.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15002.20971875,"end":15004.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15005.618468750003,"end":15007.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15008.36909375,"end":15012.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15012.70596875,"end":15017.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15017.903468750003,"end":15018.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15019.28721875,"end":15032.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15033.85034375,"end":15035.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15038.828468750002,"end":15040.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15049.67909375,"end":15053.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15050.185343750003,"end":15050.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15054.032843750003,"end":15058.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15059.38221875,"end":15065.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15066.33471875,"end":15068.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15068.96721875,"end":15075.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15075.56534375,"end":15078.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15078.94034375,"end":15080.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15080.864093750002,"end":15081.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15082.281593750002,"end":15083.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15083.378468750001,"end":15095.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15095.325968750003,"end":15098.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15098.39721875,"end":15105.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15105.687218750001,"end":15111.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15112.11659375,"end":15120.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15121.245968750001,"end":15122.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15122.629718750002,"end":15141.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15142.22159375,"end":15142.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15143.284718750001,"end":15145.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15145.630343750003,"end":15154.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15155.097218750001,"end":15155.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15156.278468750003,"end":15159.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15159.83909375,"end":15196.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15197.11596875,"end":15199.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15200.136593750001,"end":15209.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15210.582218750002,"end":15218.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15218.867843750002,"end":15221.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15221.145968750003,"end":15221.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15221.753468750001,"end":15222.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15222.023468750001,"end":15222.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15222.917843750001,"end":15225.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15226.090343750002,"end":15229.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15229.937843750002,"end":15240.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15240.535343750002,"end":15246.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15247.403468750003,"end":15266.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15266.62409375,"end":15267.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15268.024718750003,"end":15269.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15270.083468750003,"end":15272.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15274.96034375,"end":15276.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15276.411593750003,"end":15293.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15294.40034375,"end":15294.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15295.159718750001,"end":15300.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15300.441593750002,"end":15302.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15304.019093750001,"end":15305.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15306.33096875,"end":15307.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15308.01846875,"end":15311.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15308.96346875,"end":15309.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15312.726593750001,"end":15316.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15318.02534375,"end":15323.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15324.134093750003,"end":15340.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15341.59971875,"end":15346.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15351.74159375,"end":15353.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15355.504718750002,"end":15356.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15355.79159375,"end":15357.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15357.192218750002,"end":15357.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15357.58034375,"end":15357.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15357.63096875,"end":15357.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15358.17096875,"end":15360.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15360.58409375,"end":15362.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15361.680968750003,"end":15362.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15362.895968750003,"end":15363.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15363.503468750001,"end":15364.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15363.672218750002,"end":15371.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15364.02659375,"end":15364.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15371.012843750003,"end":15371.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15371.316593750002,"end":15372.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15371.367218750001,"end":15371.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15373.004093750002,"end":15384.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15384.833468750003,"end":15384.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15384.85034375,"end":15385.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15385.727843750003,"end":15388.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15389.355968750002,"end":15390.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15391.364093750002,"end":15392.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15393.81096875,"end":15397.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15398.417843750001,"end":15407.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15407.175968750002,"end":15408.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15409.11659375,"end":15409.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15411.074093750001,"end":15418.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15418.02659375,"end":15420.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15426.61596875,"end":15431.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15433.09596875,"end":15437.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15437.43284375,"end":15440.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15440.63909375,"end":15444.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15444.840968750003,"end":15445.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15446.91659375,"end":15446.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15446.950343750003,"end":15449.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15451.675343750001,"end":15454.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15455.35409375,"end":15455.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15455.370968750001,"end":15455.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15455.387843750003,"end":15457.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15456.029093750003,"end":15457.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15457.969718750002,"end":15462.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15462.57659375,"end":15466.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15467.723468750002,"end":15468.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15470.01846875,"end":15470.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15470.17034375,"end":15475.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15476.363468750002,"end":15477.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15478.202843750001,"end":15484.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15488.47971875,"end":15492.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15495.21284375,"end":15495.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15496.613468750002,"end":15496.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15496.96784375,"end":15496.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15497.879093750002,"end":15500.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15499.97159375,"end":15512.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15505.624718750001,"end":15505.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15512.745968750001,"end":15513.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15514.332218750002,"end":15517.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15517.977218750002,"end":15520.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15521.082218750002,"end":15524.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15524.33909375,"end":15528.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15529.114718750003,"end":15531.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15531.325343750003,"end":15533.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15533.637218750002,"end":15539.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15537.855968750002,"end":15537.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15537.957218750002,"end":15538.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15538.125968750002,"end":15538.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15539.543468750002,"end":15542.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15542.715968750003,"end":15547.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15547.980968750002,"end":15550.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15550.292843750001,"end":15552.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15553.954718750003,"end":15555.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15555.76034375,"end":15563.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15564.04596875,"end":15567.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15567.79221875,"end":15569.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15569.024093750002,"end":15570.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15570.30659375,"end":15578.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15579.53721875,"end":15580.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15581.089718750001,"end":15581.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15581.579093750002,"end":15583.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15583.82346875,"end":15591.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15592.21034375,"end":15598.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15598.69034375,"end":15601.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15601.54221875,"end":15603.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15605.32221875,"end":15606.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15606.992843750002,"end":15613.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15610.958468750003,"end":15611.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15614.40096875,"end":15625.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15614.654093750003,"end":15614.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15627.20909375,"end":15628.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15629.06534375,"end":15635.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15634.583468750003,"end":15634.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15634.684718750003,"end":15634.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15635.899718750003,"end":15636.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15636.96284375,"end":15649.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15649.754093750002,"end":15650.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15650.46284375,"end":15658.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15658.731593750003,"end":15661.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15663.11909375,"end":15664.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15665.29596875,"end":15669.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15671.657843750003,"end":15671.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15671.691593750002,"end":15678.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15672.14721875,"end":15672.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15678.542843750001,"end":15679.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15679.403468750003,"end":15680.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15681.58034375,"end":15688.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15688.836593750002,"end":15690.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15690.49034375,"end":15692.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15693.679718750001,"end":15698.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15698.52284375,"end":15703.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15703.720343750003,"end":15708.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15708.42846875,"end":15708.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15708.462218750003,"end":15708.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15708.715343750002,"end":15708.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15710.75721875,"end":15720.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15721.101593750001,"end":15729.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15730.31534375,"end":15731.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15731.817218750002,"end":15732.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15734.044718750003,"end":15734.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15734.348468750002,"end":15734.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15735.512843750003,"end":15746.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15746.66721875,"end":15753.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15746.903468750003,"end":15747.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15754.41284375,"end":15760.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15760.74096875,"end":15763.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15763.609718750002,"end":15765.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15765.550343750001,"end":15767.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15768.06471875,"end":15769.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15769.81971875,"end":15770.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15770.427218750003,"end":15770.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15772.840343750002,"end":15772.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15772.857218750003,"end":15781.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15782.340968750003,"end":15784.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15784.83846875,"end":15785.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15785.83409375,"end":15787.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15787.89284375,"end":15788.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15789.15846875,"end":15790.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15790.407218750002,"end":15790.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15791.723468750002,"end":15793.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15793.37721875,"end":15796.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15796.97159375,"end":15797.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15797.64659375,"end":15799.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15799.97534375,"end":15803.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15804.632843750001,"end":15811.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15811.500968750002,"end":15811.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15811.821593750003,"end":15811.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15814.032218750002,"end":15815.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15815.972843750002,"end":15816.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15818.301593750002,"end":15818.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15818.36909375,"end":15818.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15818.58846875,"end":15818.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15818.63909375,"end":15824.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15825.43971875,"end":15826.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15832.66221875,"end":15843.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15843.917843750001,"end":15851.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15851.96721875,"end":15855.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15856.810343750003,"end":15860.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15859.25721875,"end":15859.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15860.691593750002,"end":15860.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15862.227218750002,"end":15863.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15865.247843750003,"end":15867.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15867.52596875,"end":15867.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15867.914093750001,"end":15872.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15874.782218750002,"end":15881.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15882.08909375,"end":15886.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15887.657843750003,"end":15889.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15890.070968750002,"end":15894.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15894.981593750003,"end":15895.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15896.196593750003,"end":15897.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15897.64784375,"end":15899.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15899.875343750002,"end":15904.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15904.347218750001,"end":15906.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15907.65471875,"end":15910.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15910.489718750003,"end":15913.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15914.657843750003,"end":15917.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15918.825968750003,"end":15922.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15929.406593750002,"end":15951.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15951.715343750002,"end":15976.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15952.89659375,"end":15953.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15976.84221875,"end":15985.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15976.859093750001,"end":15976.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15976.977218750002,"end":15977.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15977.21346875,"end":15977.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15986.29221875,"end":15990.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15990.207218750002,"end":15995.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15995.860343750002,"end":15996.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15996.82221875,"end":16000.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16001.327843750001,"end":16007.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16001.969093750002,"end":16001.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16001.985968750003,"end":16002.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16008.921593750001,"end":16011.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16010.27159375,"end":16010.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16010.575343750003,"end":16032.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16032.15846875,"end":16032.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16033.12034375,"end":16037.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16038.23346875,"end":16039.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16040.29221875,"end":16040.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16040.325968750003,"end":16042.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16042.722218750001,"end":16044.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16044.91596875,"end":16057.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16057.454093750002,"end":16061.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16061.183468750001,"end":16067.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16073.586593750002,"end":16074.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16074.075968750003,"end":16078.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16078.919093750003,"end":16082.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16082.85096875,"end":16097.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16098.07221875,"end":16103.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16103.185343750003,"end":16104.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16104.164093750001,"end":16104.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16104.855968750002,"end":16109.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16110.222218750001,"end":16113.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16113.664718750002,"end":16114.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16115.419718750003,"end":16126.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16127.012843750003,"end":16127.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16127.02971875,"end":16134.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16134.977843750003,"end":16135.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16135.230968750002,"end":16136.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16137.239093750002,"end":16145.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16145.406593750002,"end":16150.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16150.890968750002,"end":16153.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16157.219093750002,"end":16160.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16161.72471875,"end":16162.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16166.11221875,"end":16166.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16166.466593750003,"end":16178.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16166.63534375,"end":16166.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16166.669093750003,"end":16168.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16168.154093750003,"end":16168.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16168.17096875,"end":16168.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16178.49846875,"end":16185.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16185.737843750001,"end":16186.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16186.868468750003,"end":16188.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16189.58534375,"end":16197.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16198.140968750002,"end":16198.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16199.06909375,"end":16202.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16201.465343750002,"end":16205.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16204.671593750001,"end":16205.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16205.92034375,"end":16219.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16220.31471875,"end":16227.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16226.96346875,"end":16232.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16232.34659375,"end":16240.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16240.73346875,"end":16244.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16244.85096875,"end":16259.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16260.224093750003,"end":16282.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16283.27534375,"end":16296.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16296.79221875,"end":16296.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16296.927218750003,"end":16297.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16298.344718750002,"end":16299.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16300.16721875,"end":16302.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16302.95159375,"end":16305.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16305.685343750003,"end":16310.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16311.220343750003,"end":16312.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16312.587218750003,"end":16322.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16323.539093750001,"end":16330.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16331.200343750003,"end":16333.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16334.372843750003,"end":16335.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16336.00971875,"end":16337.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16337.680343750002,"end":16337.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16338.220343750003,"end":16344.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16339.013468750003,"end":16340.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16343.92409375,"end":16344.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16344.548468750003,"end":16348.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16348.78409375,"end":16350.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16351.011593750001,"end":16354.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16354.724093750003,"end":16355.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16355.48346875,"end":16358.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16358.90909375,"end":16360.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16360.714718750001,"end":16361.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16361.01846875,"end":16362.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16363.00971875,"end":16367.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16367.532218750002,"end":16373.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16374.40034375,"end":16374.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16374.974093750003,"end":16374.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16374.99096875,"end":16378.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16375.007843750001,"end":16375.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16380.087218750003,"end":16406.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16406.749718749998,"end":16418.882843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16419.23721875,"end":16420.469093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16420.469093749998,"end":16421.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16422.29159375,"end":16424.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16425.632843749998,"end":16426.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16427.168468750002,"end":16433.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16428.63659375,"end":16429.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16433.86784375,"end":16435.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16436.770343750002,"end":16439.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16439.234093749998,"end":16439.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16442.912843750004,"end":16442.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16442.929718749998,"end":16443.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16443.89159375,"end":16443.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16444.73534375,"end":16446.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16446.929093749997,"end":16451.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16451.772218750004,"end":16452.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16452.98721875,"end":16453.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16453.08846875,"end":16453.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16453.40909375,"end":16454.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16458.47159375,"end":16458.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16458.606593750003,"end":16458.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16458.724718750003,"end":16461.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16458.741593749997,"end":16458.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16461.32346875,"end":16461.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16462.437218749998,"end":16465.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16465.879718750002,"end":16466.875343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16467.077843749998,"end":16468.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16468.27596875,"end":16468.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16468.36034375,"end":16470.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16470.537218750003,"end":16472.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16472.05596875,"end":16473.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16473.03471875,"end":16474.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16474.975343750004,"end":16475.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16475.00909375,"end":16475.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16475.312843749998,"end":16478.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16486.770968750003,"end":16488.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16759.656593749998,"end":16761.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16767.18284375,"end":16767.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16768.21221875,"end":16769.224718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16769.342843749997,"end":16770.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16772.059718750003,"end":16774.405343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16776.86909375,"end":16777.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16779.50159375,"end":16782.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16782.859718749998,"end":16785.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16786.234718749998,"end":16790.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16791.668468750002,"end":16796.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16796.646593750003,"end":16797.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16797.94596875,"end":16799.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16799.903468750003,"end":16800.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16800.848468750002,"end":16801.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16802.38409375,"end":16802.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16802.82284375,"end":16803.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16804.61159375,"end":16805.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16807.68284375,"end":16808.155343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16809.015968749998,"end":16819.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16820.052218750003,"end":16822.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16822.98846875,"end":16825.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16826.21159375,"end":16827.780968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16828.74284375,"end":16830.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16830.801593750002,"end":16837.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16843.896593750003,"end":16847.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16847.828468749998,"end":16852.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16853.44784375,"end":16855.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16855.270343750002,"end":16856.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16856.552843750003,"end":16857.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16857.632843749998,"end":16858.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16858.898468749998,"end":16860.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16861.12596875,"end":16862.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16863.16784375,"end":16866.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16867.015343749998,"end":16867.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16867.04909375,"end":16867.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16868.31471875,"end":16870.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16870.33971875,"end":16872.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16878.085343749997,"end":16878.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16880.95409375,"end":16881.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16882.11846875,"end":16886.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16886.96159375,"end":16886.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16888.15971875,"end":16899.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16899.044093750003,"end":16899.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16899.85409375,"end":16903.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16904.19096875,"end":16910.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16910.72159375,"end":16912.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16913.607218750003,"end":16914.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16915.02471875,"end":16915.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16919.091593750003,"end":16920.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16920.272843749997,"end":16923.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16923.968468749998,"end":16924.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16924.154093750003,"end":16924.170968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16924.170968749997,"end":16924.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16924.20471875,"end":16924.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16927.225343750004,"end":16927.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16927.242218749998,"end":16937.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16937.333468750003,"end":16938.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16938.210968749998,"end":16940.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16941.28221875,"end":16968.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16968.484718749998,"end":16972.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16972.669718750003,"end":16974.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16974.82971875,"end":16985.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16985.545343750004,"end":16997.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16997.91471875,"end":16999.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16999.484093749998,"end":17017.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17017.75971875,"end":17028.374093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17028.897218750004,"end":17034.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17034.33096875,"end":17036.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17037.92534375,"end":17040.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17040.77721875,"end":17042.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17043.62909375,"end":17055.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17055.812843749998,"end":17065.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17065.85346875,"end":17083.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17083.538468749997,"end":17083.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17084.483468749997,"end":17095.469093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17096.78534375,"end":17109.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17109.340343750002,"end":17111.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17112.14159375,"end":17113.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17114.554718749998,"end":17132.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17132.72909375,"end":17133.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17134.83846875,"end":17148.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17148.64221875,"end":17149.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17150.802218750003,"end":17155.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17155.07159375,"end":17155.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17155.881593750004,"end":17159.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17159.999093749997,"end":17161.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17161.75409375,"end":17169.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17170.630343750003,"end":17170.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17170.68096875,"end":17170.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17170.849718750003,"end":17170.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17170.88346875,"end":17170.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17170.984718749998,"end":17171.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17171.052218750003,"end":17171.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17171.33909375,"end":17171.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17171.406593749998,"end":17171.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17171.592218750004,"end":17171.710343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17172.92534375,"end":17184.687218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17185.598468750002,"end":17187.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17187.47159375,"end":17195.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17195.723468750002,"end":17201.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17202.43971875,"end":17205.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17205.62909375,"end":17211.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17211.771593750003,"end":17225.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17226.30096875,"end":17235.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17236.442843750003,"end":17241.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17241.57284375,"end":17251.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17253.672218749998,"end":17259.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17260.489718750003,"end":17268.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17268.23534375,"end":17270.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17270.918468750002,"end":17272.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17271.340343750002,"end":17277.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17278.25909375,"end":17284.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17284.637843750003,"end":17284.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17284.975343750004,"end":17285.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17285.414093749998,"end":17287.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17286.93284375,"end":17287.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17287.97909375,"end":17288.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17288.029718750004,"end":17291.100968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17288.215343750002,"end":17288.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17288.451593750004,"end":17288.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17289.075968750003,"end":17289.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17290.037843750004,"end":17294.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17294.459093750003,"end":17294.779718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17294.84721875,"end":17294.897843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17294.94846875,"end":17294.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17294.999093749997,"end":17295.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17295.47159375,"end":17295.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17295.741593749997,"end":17297.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17301.647843749997,"end":17302.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17302.609718749998,"end":17321.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17321.94846875,"end":17332.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17457.97784375,"end":17459.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17464.457843750002,"end":17465.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17466.73596875,"end":17468.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17469.99284375,"end":17470.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17470.75221875,"end":17471.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17472.169718750003,"end":17477.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17477.333468750003,"end":17480.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17481.147218750004,"end":17481.788468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17483.982218750003,"end":17484.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17485.264718749997,"end":17487.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17488.217843749997,"end":17494.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17494.91721875,"end":17497.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17498.022218750004,"end":17499.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17499.591593750003,"end":17504.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17504.130968750003,"end":17506.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17507.05034375,"end":17510.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17510.897843749997,"end":17513.530343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17513.86784375,"end":17514.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17515.25159375,"end":17517.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17520.280343749997,"end":17521.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17522.676593750002,"end":17522.710343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17767.397843749997,"end":17769.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17791.49534375,"end":17792.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17794.21221875,"end":17795.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17796.01784375,"end":17798.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17798.76846875,"end":17805.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17807.52659375,"end":17808.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17809.028468750003,"end":17810.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17810.834093750003,"end":17814.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17815.08659375,"end":17828.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17829.295343750004,"end":17834.594093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17835.15096875,"end":17835.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17841.15846875,"end":17843.757218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17850.22034375,"end":17850.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17852.076593750004,"end":17854.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17855.333468750003,"end":17857.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17857.982843750004,"end":17859.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17860.514093750004,"end":17864.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17864.69909375,"end":17865.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17865.795968749997,"end":17870.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17872.05659375,"end":17877.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17877.43971875,"end":17882.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17883.075968750003,"end":17886.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17887.109093749998,"end":17899.545968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17900.153468750003,"end":17901.132218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17902.161593750003,"end":17902.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17903.039093749998,"end":17904.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17904.591593750003,"end":17906.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17908.827218749997,"end":17909.569718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17909.856593750003,"end":17911.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17912.387843750003,"end":17915.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17916.15096875,"end":17916.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17917.230968750002,"end":17919.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17920.06596875,"end":17923.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17923.592843749997,"end":17928.132218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17928.48659375,"end":17930.764718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17932.38471875,"end":17934.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17937.75096875,"end":17938.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17946.914093749998,"end":17955.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17955.68909375,"end":17960.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17961.19034375,"end":17962.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17963.434718750003,"end":17966.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17968.497218750003,"end":17968.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17968.98659375,"end":17970.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17972.80034375,"end":17974.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17975.53409375,"end":17978.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17979.044093750003,"end":17980.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17983.21221875,"end":17991.531593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17992.139093750004,"end":17997.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17998.01159375,"end":17998.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17998.75409375,"end":18006.077843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18007.78221875,"end":18010.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18011.08971875,"end":18012.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18013.975343750004,"end":18014.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18017.215343750002,"end":18019.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18020.45534375,"end":18026.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18027.94784375,"end":18029.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18030.124718749998,"end":18031.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18032.08221875,"end":18033.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18040.78971875,"end":18047.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18048.670343750004,"end":18051.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18054.914093749998,"end":18056.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18056.685968750004,"end":18060.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18060.719093749998,"end":18064.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18065.882843749998,"end":18066.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18071.265968749998,"end":18071.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18072.059093750002,"end":18073.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18073.40909375,"end":18073.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18073.52721875,"end":18073.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18073.544093750003,"end":18073.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18073.59471875,"end":18073.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18073.763468750003,"end":18073.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":18078.404093750003,"end":18078.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":18078.437843749998,"end":18079.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18079.50096875,"end":18080.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":18080.17596875,"end":18080.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18080.192843750003,"end":18080.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":18080.34471875,"end":18080.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18080.918468750002,"end":18080.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18081.86346875,"end":18081.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18081.914093749998,"end":18082.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18081.93096875,"end":18083.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18083.027843750002,"end":18083.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18083.09534375,"end":18083.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18083.145968750003,"end":18086.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18087.584093750003,"end":18087.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18088.19159375,"end":18089.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18090.520343750002,"end":18090.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18091.077218749997,"end":18095.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18096.359093749998,"end":18109.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18110.95596875,"end":18118.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18119.27534375,"end":18121.671593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18122.599718750003,"end":18125.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18125.58659375,"end":18128.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18130.04159375,"end":18137.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18137.65221875,"end":18142.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18144.199718750002,"end":18183.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18176.04284375,"end":18176.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18183.130343750003,"end":18188.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18188.02409375,"end":18253.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18253.75221875,"end":18258.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18259.35471875,"end":18260.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18260.09721875,"end":18260.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18260.82284375,"end":18261.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18263.202218749997,"end":18265.733468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18267.91034375,"end":18273.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18273.630968750003,"end":18278.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18279.435968750004,"end":18304.545968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18304.630343750003,"end":18311.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18311.481593750003,"end":18312.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18313.64159375,"end":18316.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18316.52721875,"end":18320.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18320.39159375,"end":18333.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18333.50346875,"end":18337.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18337.671593749998,"end":18342.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18343.020968750003,"end":18346.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18347.39159375,"end":18349.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18349.804718749998,"end":18351.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18351.44159375,"end":18353.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18353.85471875,"end":18387.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18388.24596875,"end":18390.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18391.16534375,"end":18396.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18396.86909375,"end":18417.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18399.248468750004,"end":18402.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18417.794093750003,"end":18420.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18420.61221875,"end":18422.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18421.000343749998,"end":18425.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18425.67471875,"end":18425.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18425.708468750003,"end":18425.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18425.725343750004,"end":18425.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18425.742218749998,"end":18428.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18426.484718749998,"end":18432.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18428.594093749998,"end":18430.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18431.547218749998,"end":18433.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18434.500343749998,"end":18435.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18436.272218750004,"end":18438.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18436.896593750003,"end":18440.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18438.83721875,"end":18438.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18438.887843750003,"end":18438.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18438.904718750004,"end":18464.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18440.86221875,"end":18440.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18441.030968749998,"end":18441.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18441.06471875,"end":18442.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18442.094093749998,"end":18442.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18464.25096875,"end":18469.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18469.56659375,"end":18478.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18472.16534375,"end":18479.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18480.70409375,"end":18486.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18480.94034375,"end":18482.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18482.64471875,"end":18482.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18484.129718750002,"end":18484.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18485.24346875,"end":18490.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18491.48721875,"end":18492.702218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18492.702218749997,"end":18493.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18493.022843749997,"end":18494.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18494.777843750002,"end":18495.655343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18494.86221875,"end":18494.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18494.929718749998,"end":18496.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18496.296593749998,"end":18496.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18496.31346875,"end":18498.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18499.030343749997,"end":18501.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18501.949718750002,"end":18501.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18501.966593750003,"end":18503.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18502.590968750003,"end":18512.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18512.37846875,"end":18513.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18514.79159375,"end":18516.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18516.25971875,"end":18517.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18517.08659375,"end":18547.427843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18549.840968750003,"end":18549.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18550.22909375,"end":18551.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18551.61284375,"end":18613.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18552.01784375,"end":18552.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18553.840343750002,"end":18557.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18558.278468750003,"end":18558.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18558.56534375,"end":18558.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18558.58221875,"end":18558.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18613.358468749997,"end":18615.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18614.43846875,"end":18627.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18616.02471875,"end":18616.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18628.78221875,"end":18639.936593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18631.785968750002,"end":18633.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18633.54096875,"end":18637.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18638.451593750004,"end":18653.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18654.76971875,"end":18686.663468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18686.207843750002,"end":18693.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18693.599093750003,"end":18697.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18694.679093749997,"end":18727.905968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18727.973468750002,"end":18728.007218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18728.46284375,"end":18735.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18736.15784375,"end":18744.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18736.27596875,"end":18737.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18745.101593749998,"end":18779.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18751.68284375,"end":18754.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18779.273468749998,"end":18807.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18805.02471875,"end":18806.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":18806.037218750003,"end":18807.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":18820.02659375,"end":18820.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18820.043468750002,"end":18837.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18825.156593749998,"end":18825.983468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18826.422218749998,"end":18827.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":18827.29971875,"end":18827.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18827.31659375,"end":18827.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18833.037218750003,"end":18834.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18836.817218750002,"end":18839.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18838.89284375,"end":18844.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18841.694093750004,"end":18842.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18844.225343750004,"end":18844.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18844.427843750003,"end":18849.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18849.895343750002,"end":18850.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18862.652843750002,"end":18863.850968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18863.952218750004,"end":18864.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18864.96471875,"end":18869.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18869.335343749997,"end":18869.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18869.520968750003,"end":18869.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18870.33096875,"end":18878.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18878.34659375,"end":18959.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18960.021593750003,"end":18961.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18962.856593750003,"end":18966.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18967.64909375,"end":18968.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18968.779718750004,"end":18968.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18968.796593749998,"end":18982.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":18982.65096875,"end":18983.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18983.967218750004,"end":18987.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18987.59534375,"end":18988.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18989.16471875,"end":18989.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18990.22784375,"end":18995.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18996.117218749998,"end":18997.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18999.239093750002,"end":19000.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19001.31471875,"end":19008.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19009.44846875,"end":19015.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19015.810343750003,"end":19021.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19022.340968750003,"end":19024.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19024.973468750002,"end":19026.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19026.93096875,"end":19028.29784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1784.862,"end":1806.173,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在繼續開會 我們先介紹到場委員 林月琴委員應邀列席官員考試院祕書長 劉祕書長保訓會主委 蔡主委全序部政次 懷政次"},{"start":1809.543,"end":1823.948,"text":"其議會及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不在逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本日會議討論事項兩案分別為一 病案審查公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":1825.872,"end":1849.96,"text":"然後繼續併案審查公務人員任用法第36條之一條文修正草案由於第二案是前113年12月5日本屆第二會期司法及法治委員會第18次全體委員會議審查決議報告及詢答完畢令定期繼續審查因此現在進行第一案公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案之提案說明及報告"},{"start":1853.271,"end":1866.802,"text":"好 我們現在進行委員提案說明 發言時間3分鐘我們請林月琴委員進行提案說明我們補充介紹道場委員 黃國昌委員"},{"start":1878.605,"end":1906.392,"text":"本席今天要針對公務人員職場霸凌這個嚴肅的議題來說明目前制度上的一些問題跟修法的必要性行政院隨之108年起即訂定了相關的指導原則並於112年進一步要求上級機關處理首長涉案事件但面對首長涉案該制度能難自愛難行現行複審再申訴跟行政訴訟程序複雜"},{"start":1908.132,"end":1935.815,"text":"基層人員難以有效運用那實際救濟成效有限所以113年北基已花分屬無姓同仁不姓親生經調查確定跟職場霸凌跟管理不當有因果關係凸顯制度防線失守本席認為若制度明確程序友善或能挽回一條生命所以目前的安全與衛生防護的法律規範事實上是模糊的"},{"start":1936.195,"end":1954.047,"text":"無法有效涵蓋職場霸凌等非肢體的傷害多數案件處在不是明顯犯罪卻構成長期傷害的灰色地帶常被誤認為單純的管理問題而未妥善處理因此本行提出修法建議希望透過以下幾點"},{"start":1955.368,"end":1975.747,"text":"來建立一個能夠保護工人員的制度第一明確把職場霸凌管理不當導致的身心傷害納入安全與衛生防護的範圍並授權考試院跟行政院共同訂定相關的辦法包括預防申訴調查處理輔導等措施讓制度更完善"},{"start":1976.688,"end":1999.546,"text":"第二 各機關要建立內部跟外部的申訴跟通報制度當加害人士 人事主管 單位主管或機關首長申訴可以往上提或由外部第三方來處理 避免利益衝突第三 要求各機關成立防治審議會負責調查處理這類事件 必要時也可以移送司法機關"},{"start":2000.928,"end":2024.609,"text":"確保處理有力量第四 明定申訴期限避免因時間拖延讓受害者失去救濟的機會所以本席認為保障公務人員的身心健康是國家的最基本責任那公務員每天面對到龐大業務跟壓力不該再承受不合理的職場對待這不是制度的問題更是職場文化跟人權保障的四金石所以"},{"start":2024.969,"end":2047.232,"text":"敬請各位支持本案修法讓我們一起建立一個安全尊重公平的公務環境以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那請問民眾黨的代表黃委員有沒有要進行民眾黨提案說明好 那麻煩黃委員謝謝主席 本會委員"},{"start":2048.7,"end":2069.592,"text":"公務員在職場當中必須要得到安全衛生最基本的防護這是任何一個民主法治國家當中都應該要給公務員基本的保障非常不幸的我國有關於公務員保障的安慰辦法從2014年到目前為止歷經了11年的時間當中從來沒有做修訂"},{"start":2074.329,"end":2093.209,"text":"第一次到立法院服務的時候我曾在2018年針對這件事情提出質詢那個時候得到要盡速修訂的承諾沒想到等我2024年回到立法院來原地踏步一事無成毫無進展"},{"start":2095.114,"end":2114.81,"text":"台灣民眾黨立法院黨團從過去這一年不斷的催促我們的考試院提出相關的辦法以及母法公務人員保障法的修訂為什麼公務人員保障法的修訂很重要因為沒有母法的授權執法的安慰辦法根本無從定法則"},{"start":2116.192,"end":2139.245,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子從去年台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們針對公務員保障法必須要有授權處罰的規定我們率先提出了提案而且在考試院正副院長以及考試委員的尋答過程當中要求新任的考試院院長具體明確的提出承諾"},{"start":2140.578,"end":2167.318,"text":"而這件事情跟去年所不幸發生的在勞動部職場霸凌事件不幸往生的工程師另外一個緊密連結的是有關於職場霸凌的處理台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們本來希望的立法形式是通過職場霸凌的專法也就是公司部門一律的納管"},{"start":2168.291,"end":2188.55,"text":"那只不過說目前我們的行政單位似乎是希望針對有關於私部門交由勞動部處理的霸凌法針對公部門放在公務人員保障法當中對立法形式的不同我們沒有太強烈的堅持最重要的事情是"},{"start":2189.793,"end":2207.371,"text":"重塑趕快提供我們所有在公部門服務的同仁一個安全衛生的環境以及有法律強制力作為保障的一個機制那因此在今天的整個公務員保障法的審議過程當中"},{"start":2209.429,"end":2228.788,"text":"對於公司部門要分流這樣子的處理方式我們不會堅持一定要用一部專法予以涵蓋那但是對於今天考試院所提出來的版本除了我們本來就已經提出來的條文之外針對考試院的版本我們認為有所不足"},{"start":2229.409,"end":2250.801,"text":"那我也感謝我們的召委吳宗憲召委那今天在委員會審議的時候我跟吳宗憲召委會共同提出一版修正動議那希望能夠對於目前公務人員保障法的規範模式能夠更完整的更有實效性的來加以保障敬請各位委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2255.589,"end":2270.949,"text":"好 我們接著進行機關代表報告 每位發言時間3分鐘我們待會就依序由考試院劉秘書長還有保訓會的蔡主委 然後詮釋部的懷政次我們待會依序就這樣報告好 那我們首先先請劉秘書長報告"},{"start":2276.951,"end":2295.239,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天很榮幸能夠列席貴委員會來參與保障法部分條文修正草案的審查就在去年底在貴院行使第十四屆考試院人事同意權的時候總統院院長有主動的具體承諾公部門"},{"start":2296.479,"end":2323.779,"text":"有關霸凌防治跟安全衛生等等相關法令的修正將列為本屆考試院的優先施政重點並競速在本會期來提出相關的草案在上個月考試院實現了這項承諾5月1號我們的院會通過了保障法還有安慰辦法跟考機法的三部修正的草案分別函送立法院來審議還有函請行政院會嫌這三部法案跟辦法的配套修正"},{"start":2324.84,"end":2350.375,"text":"有兩個重點一個就是霸凌防治一個就是公務員執行職務的安全健康那相較於現在的規定這個修法之後會帶來幾個具體的改變第一個就是提升了法治位階第二是規範更加具體周延第三是強化了各個主管機關的權責第四個是強化了上級機關跟保訓會監督跟檢查的權責第五是增訂了法則包含行政罰款"},{"start":2351.756,"end":2379.523,"text":"這裡面就職場霸凌方面保障法的修正把相關的未接從現在的指引提升到法律也明確定義了這個霸凌的定義還有機關防治責任明定申訴期限增訂了相關的罰則我們搭配安慰辦法的修正在當中我們有一個職場霸凌申訴處理的專節來完善了申訴處理機制而且對機關可以責任除了要迅速處理採取補救措施也不可以對申訴人有不利的對待或不合理的處置"},{"start":2380.703,"end":2401.273,"text":"此外還有考機法第十二條修正案把霸凌行為甄列為得一次計兩大過免職的情勢所以我們希望透過這三管齊下完整的配套以最快的速度來建立公部門霸凌防治的法制規範有效防範相關事件的再次發生另外就公務人員職場安全健康的方面我們除了在安慰辦法當中"},{"start":2402.273,"end":2417.403,"text":"有提升了各機關的防護機制同時我們也有針對高風險職務訂定了專節的規範增加了監督與檢查的專章要求各機關對所屬進行定期的抽查跟專案檢查但是"},{"start":2418.423,"end":2437.88,"text":"為了不要使安慰辦法只是無牙老虎所以今天我們審查的保障法草案就非常重要因為它納入了相關的法則也賦予了保訓會行政法環的審議跟採取權責所以如果這個法案都能夠順利的通過的話就能夠確保安慰辦法的規定在各公務機關被貫徹落實"},{"start":2439.682,"end":2468.688,"text":"在這邊要感謝吳釗偉跟貴委員會對相關法案過去多次的指證以及最快速度來排審今天保障法的修正草案由於安慰辦法也即將要完成兩院的會嫌程序所以我們會盡快的發布實施並且還請貴院備查我們期盼在保障法跟考記法的修正草案都能夠在本會期來完成審議這樣相關的法治基礎就可以完備以上有種感謝也請各位批評指教謝謝"},{"start":2473.49,"end":2476.471,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生女士大家早安今天很榮幸列席貴會在就公務人員保障法的部分條文修正草案的審議提出報告那這次修法主要是在回應這個大院各位委員還有政府公務人員以及社會大眾"},{"start":2502.92,"end":2530.952,"text":"對於政府部門職場霸凌防治以及安全衛生事項法制層面的周延性及有效性的關注那政府部門呢現行有關安全衛生及職場霸凌的制度最主要就是由考試院保訓會目前所掌理的公務人員保障法還有公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法作為基礎所架構起來的那現行的法制呢這個過去呢被認為這個法律位階不足然後呢"},{"start":2531.852,"end":2555.814,"text":"有一些具體應該要更明確克責以及具體落法的處理機制並沒有在這個相關的辦法裡面有相對應的罰則所以這一次我們的保障法修法重點主要就是賦予這個安全及衛生防護辦法重要的法源那特別是在有關於職場霸凌的部分我們直接把它明確的入法"},{"start":2556.334,"end":2569.739,"text":"那這個相關的定義呢除了一般的所謂我們講持續性以外那參酌了很多的這個機關團體還有這個法治法學的專家我們也增加了一個部分就是這個"},{"start":2571.536,"end":2594.363,"text":"如果一次性的造成了這個公務人員的身心受創那我們也把它列入是所謂的職場霸凌的一個定義裡面那第二個部分呢就是有關於這個依照這個行為人他是不是屬於具有權勢地位所謂權勢地位指的就是說對於被霸凌人他是屬於機關的各級主管"},{"start":2595.441,"end":2615.41,"text":"或者是這個具有監督管理的權限的這一種跟一般的是屬於這個植物上機會所造成的職場霸凌分別規劃屬於叫全市性霸凌或一般性霸凌而有不同的這個申訴的這個期限分別是三年跟五年再來機關的應負責"},{"start":2617.205,"end":2644.926,"text":"人及機關首長如果違反安慰辦法那我們新增的罰還跟處罰涉及刑事責任就移送檢查機關再來明確的定義保訓會作為安全衛生事故審議的這個機關那會組成這個調查小組那裁罰跟外部機關我們也納入那再來就是公務人員因機關未提供安全衛生防護措施導致生命身心健康受損得以國家賠償法請求賠償"},{"start":2647.273,"end":2674.873,"text":"此外呢為了讓程序一致目前呢很多的這個沒有納入這個安慰辦法的那我們為了讓機關裡面的人員程序一致所以我們也用准用的方式那麼最後呢就是非常的感謝大院還有這個我們這次召委跟委員會還有很多的委員給我們這個很強力的督促還有很大的期許讓我們這次的修法可以這個希望能夠達成這個各位委員的期待謝謝"},{"start":2678.342,"end":2680.601,"text":"好謝謝那下一位我們請懷政次"},{"start":2686.571,"end":2711.117,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安那本部對於那個公務員保障法的修正這部分是屬於保訓會執掌事項那也經過考試院會通過送到大院審議本部並表尊重那另外配合保障法的修正考試院已經在今年5月6號把公務員考計法第12條修正草案含送大院來審議那主要是對於一次兩大過部分我們增加關於職場霸凌、性騷擾、酒後駕車"},{"start":2712.597,"end":2727.882,"text":"跟性侵害等等相關的規範,予以更明確的規範那這部分有待大院來審議那另外根據第二案,就是案於二的部分那有關於李願秀委員提案對於公園任用法第36條之一的修正草案那本部看完以後"},{"start":2729.022,"end":2756.241,"text":"我想我們有一些文字上修正那也符合那個李燕秀委員他所提案的內容那等到具體條文討論的時候我們再提出意見那這個我們本部的建議修正意見在我們的書面報告的附件那另外那個翁委員小林所提的公園任用法第28條之一的修正草案那我們看了翁委員草案的修正他主要的目的是要把御孫這個部分加進去那我們看"},{"start":2756.741,"end":2777.693,"text":"他主要是希望我們公園那個留職停薪辦法能夠把後面單數修掉那我們部裡面初步的建議是建議第28條之一事實上事務可以不用修正如本部直接依照翁曉林委員的意見直接來修把那個公園留職停薪辦法翁曉林委員所提的後面那個單數部我們直接把它以行政"},{"start":2778.353,"end":2779.414,"text":"其餘提出書面報告的機關有沒有口頭補充"},{"start":2797.932,"end":2824.607,"text":"那沒有的話機關報告機關代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位穿越並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答由於詢答後接續進行法案審查所以我們伊利本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2832.21,"end":2859.162,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請考試院秘書長保訓會主任委員 蔡主任委員還有選區部的懷疑政策懷疑政策委員長三位早 時間的關係不易問候最近監察院濫用公務車的狀況引爆全國人民的怒火昨天有立法委員檢舉所接到檢舉"},{"start":2860.785,"end":2887.619,"text":"有監委濫用公務車啊結果那個監委啊大嗆說他沒有公務車大家很慘啊下雨天要坐捷運又要走路我看到這樣的發言啊我簡直是瞠目結舌啊何不食肉糜啊全國的公務人員哪一個不是這樣上班的啊監委有比較忙嗎"},{"start":2889.093,"end":2918.353,"text":"但是他講了一句啊 很有啟發性的話他說什麼他說不是只有監察院有公務車啊要查全面都要查啊來 先請秘書長 贊不贊成他這樣的呼籲跟委員報告 就是我想所有的機關在使用公務車的時候都應該遵守相當的規定OK 好 來 我們來看一下考試院目前有12部首長專用車 1部副首長專用車我指的是院本部喔"},{"start":2919.474,"end":2931.125,"text":"其他的 選序部 考選部以及保訓會的我還沒有算保訓會的在下一張考選部 選序部 保訓會總共有九部政府首長專用車"},{"start":2933.015,"end":2948.453,"text":"院本部有12部首長專用車啊現在這12部首長專用車是怎麼使用的啊可不可以簡單跟大家說明一下我們有一個院長副院長嘛他們都是首長嗎首長專用車的話現在就是院長副院長秘書長跟副秘書長"},{"start":2950.576,"end":2977.256,"text":"四台這個就是那其他的考試委員呢六個考試委員嘛對不對我們有六位考試委員十二部扣掉四部正副院長正副秘書長還有八部嘛然後有六個考試委員我們六位考試委員他們現在考試委員的那個載送他們的車輛他們的使用方法也是一樣要提出拍車單"},{"start":2978.237,"end":3000.404,"text":"一樣要提出派車單所以不是專用車有沒有固定的司機跟我們報告其實慣例上面以前都是專用車在很多屆前是那在幾屆以前有立法院做成決議是就認為烤尾不應該是專用車有沒有落實有這個部分有因為烤尾的車輛都要所以司機跟烤尾"},{"start":3001.204,"end":3025.814,"text":"不是專屬的關係但是他還是會有一個對應關係沒有專屬的關係有對應關係我的意思就是說那你還敢講有落實喔因為這樣考委的車輛也要接受公務車的調度所以也就是說如果因為我們就是如果公務車需要量比較多的時候那我們的單位會調配沒有啦不要講這些雜七雜八的我現在只有問首長專用車嘛是"},{"start":3029.776,"end":3052.888,"text":"在你們給立法院公務車的車輛明細表裡面有12輛首長專用車嘛扣掉正副院長、正副秘書長還有8輛嘛然後考試委員有6名嘛所以呢首長專用車的數量大於所有院本部的正副首長這樣講沒有錯吧對 因為這次考試委員提名人數就沒有到9位"},{"start":3055.896,"end":3082.853,"text":"我再問我最關鍵的問題以前啦是上一屆國會的時候秘書長應該很清楚啊你有被檢舉過啊搭公務車然後出入清平台基金會大樓那個時候潘孟安姚立民也有一起與會這個事情你還記得吧對 這個是我是去拜會清平台的鄭麗君董事長所以這是公務我去拜會他這個部分是公務是公務"},{"start":3083.453,"end":3096.873,"text":"晚上九點是公務應該說我們在拜會相關民間智庫的話這個其實也是都做這是民間智庫還是賴清德的民間競選總部因為這個部分我沒有參與啦你確定沒有參與"},{"start":3098.837,"end":3119.366,"text":"真的沒有參與上一屆啊立法委員問這一題問得很溫和啊那時候我人不在立法院啊我也想說算了就尊重那一屆啊立委的職責我只是要喚起你的記憶啊喚起你的記憶啊同時讓所有考試院的正副院長啊大家"},{"start":3120.455,"end":3139.375,"text":"一起共同勉力共同警惕公務車是不是可以這樣用現在事情風波變成這個樣子那既然既然有監委呼籲要查全面就要查那沒關係那我們就來全面的清查"},{"start":3140.836,"end":3164.799,"text":"是不是可以請考試院包括所屬的兩部還有保訓會針對今年考試委員以及你們正副首長使用公務車的情況派車單的影本以及公務車司機加班的情況每個月加班的時數以及加班費會後把資料送給全體司法法治委員會的委員可以嗎需要多久 三天之內"},{"start":3165.919,"end":3192.982,"text":"好 我們盡快好 三天之內喔 今年所有的狀況提到社會法治委員會然後我們說到狀況以後有沒有必要排專案報告我再請我們的召委來加以斟酌來進入今天的主題中憲院長當初在考試院院長提名權的時候我事實上在跟他詢問 他有跟我承諾說他一定會提出公務員保障法的修正草案這件事情有做到"},{"start":3194.376,"end":3218.279,"text":"周院長說到做到說到做到我沒有後悔當初投他一個贊成票但是現在我們今天要進入整個法規範細部的討論逐條的時候我們可以再交換意見但有幾個大的原則性的問題來我先請教一下保健會的主委裡面有說啦 就針對"},{"start":3219.62,"end":3230.508,"text":"霸凌的狀況 機關首長經認定職場霸凌成立處一萬元以上 一百萬元以下的罰款這是考試員的提案嘛好 那這個機關首長怎麼定義啊機關 不好意思機關首長指的就是 我們是相對於這個治安法裡面他講的是民間的部署是啦 是啦 那治安法是民間的嘛在公務機關的機關首長如何定義"},{"start":3246.459,"end":3264.843,"text":"他在整個組織法裡面呢 他明定就是掌理跟負責整個機關政務的推動的那一個負責人 最主要負責人那我們稱他為機關首長 依照就是中央行政機關組織法的規定我們的機關首長有四級嘛有一級機關 二級機關 三級機關 四級機關嘛四級到第四級的機關首長全部都算是嗎是好來 我們下一個 司長算嗎"},{"start":3278.467,"end":3288.132,"text":"他算單位主管 他不算機關首長那現在問題就來啦單位主管 師長就很大啦我們先休息 先休息"},{"start":3317.354,"end":3326.876,"text":"民主黨你先坐著休息沒事喔沒有沒有沒有這個不是任何人的問題就民主黨先休息"},{"start":3346.656,"end":3348.278,"text":"立法院這邊有義務室我們再請他們過來一下"},{"start":3368.142,"end":3368.423,"text":"那個那個"},{"start":3403.728,"end":3419.664,"text":"各位委員,如果我們讓他們到巡打的位置,大家可以接受嗎?好,那我們就...就主委,我們就到那個官員的位置那邊去接受巡打,對對對,欸這個台子壞掉了"},{"start":3431.433,"end":3445.737,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":3458.814,"end":3463.029,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":3493.07,"end":3494.893,"text":"桌幕的這個螢幕我們會裝上去"},{"start":3560.52,"end":3579.025,"text":"好 那民主黨等一下如果你有任何需要或不舒服你都隨時跟我們說不用擔心 耽誤會議的進行就隨時跟我講那我們需要停止或是你有什麼需求就直接跟我們說好 以身體健康為第一優先抱歉個人身體狀況妨礙這個進程這個身體的問題絕對不是任何人有什麼不對的地方"},{"start":3584.207,"end":3608.44,"text":"所以只要有什麼問題你隨時跟我說以您的身體健康為我的第一考量是 謝謝不好意思那我們就會議繼續謝謝主席其實我是歉意啦看是不是直接讓秘書長先離席我剛剛有跟秘書長說就是秘書長如果需要請假可以先請假回去我們這邊沒問題沒有關係 謝謝委員讓我坐著"},{"start":3610.758,"end":3627.799,"text":"那請民主黨隨時注意一下身體狀況或有沒有撞傷或什麼一定要講好 謝謝民主黨OK 好 那就繼續下去就麻煩保訓會的主委回答就好了所以我們先從法條的定義開始司長不在你們這次所提出法案的機關首長的範圍當中對不對"},{"start":3630.611,"end":3651.813,"text":"她不算機關首長,但是她算是負責人之一,因為如果說在現場當中她是實際指揮監督者。我就具體的講我的法律意見,從過去衛福部所發生的案子清楚的呈現出來,不用到機關首長,部門主管的權勢就很大了。"},{"start":3652.984,"end":3677.883,"text":"部門主管的權勢就很大了就問一問一般的公務員 師長大不大師長講的話敢不敢違逆為什麼會有師長叫人家在那邊要深蹲做福利挺身還叫下屬自殺這個應該都是落入你們這一次保訓會所提出的公務員職場霸凌的定義範圍內沒有錯吧"},{"start":3681.385,"end":3707.381,"text":"你要按麥克風是對嘛那現在問題就來了屬於你們所定義的職場霸凌範疇但因為他不符合機關首長的定義那導致沒有辦法對他進行行政上面的罰還而他現實上是什麼現實上公務體系裡面公務員隨便問一問就知道權勢很大了啦那要不然在衛福部怎麼會出現這樣令人髮指的狀況"},{"start":3710.253,"end":3738.584,"text":"沒有關係啊 我質詢就是要把這個point把它講出來那具體法條啊討論的時候 我跟其他的委員包括吳宗憲委員 羅志強委員等等我們所提出來的修正動議到具體條文的時候我們再來進一步討論希望到時候考試院保訓會的心胸能夠放寬一點全部把它嚴格限定在機關首長保護的範圍是不是足夠這件事情可能要討論一下"},{"start":3739.904,"end":3749.698,"text":"我的時間到了 我最後只問一題跟今天所提的法律案有關係的我們都到主條再來處理我最後一個問題 請教一下全序部的"},{"start":3750.529,"end":3777.26,"text":"我們之前啊 就那個警察人員人事條例啊台灣民眾黨團的立場是我們要保護我們警消的同仁他們非常的辛苦 非常的辛苦在政策上 權序部有不一樣的看法我理解 因為你們要面對所有的公務員那警消特別處理你們權序部一直有不一樣的看法這個我都理解但問題是這個法律案現在已經三讀通過了"},{"start":3778.462,"end":3793.315,"text":"那我得到一些基層我們警消退休的人員他們的反應是說三讀通過了到底什麼時候要做然後我找警政署來說現在跟你們好像有一些意見不一樣需要多久來請玄虛部"},{"start":3794.327,"end":3819.557,"text":"我跟委員報告一下第一個這個法律已經在今年4月25日總統公布生效這是一個有效法律我們本部一定會執行這個大家不用擔心另外因為在這個法通過以後事實上實際執行上面我們事實上在4月29日、5月16日跟5月28日兩部的內政部跟本部的政務次長都有召開會議因為有些執行上細節並不是還需要多久"},{"start":3820.938,"end":3838.07,"text":"目前大概警政署他必須要研修一個警察條例的適應細則那因為現在的這個所以現在是警政署那邊的問題對因為我們這個有很多討論因為很多細節這我跟委員報告我也是繼承公園出身的這個法律通過不是我們想像說好像訂貼"},{"start":3839.591,"end":3860.22,"text":"尤其這個裡面大概沒有退休人就跟沒有退休你把要做的工作還有需要多久清楚的讓大家知道讓所有基層的同仁可以知道就好這個我們現在大概後續還要再進行一個叫做電腦系統的一個需求處理那那個部分我們跟專業單位討論過大概需要三個月時間三個月時間對對對沒有關係就等你三個月因為今天你時間講出來了嘛"},{"start":3865.982,"end":3893.394,"text":"那大家就等你三個月三個月要完成電腦系統以後我們才可以開始作業不是說三個月就把這個事情做好所以總共需要多久我們是預計因為我們要考慮到不好意思我們要考慮到我們部裡面同仁的工作複合大概電腦如果很順利能夠三個月把它完成的話我們大概預判應該在年底以前應該都可以把它完成年底以前對 把四萬多年前完成沒有關係啦而且這個都會追溯你們需要時間喔"},{"start":3894.474,"end":3918.977,"text":"一定給你們時間那只是全責要理清楚那你要給大家一個清楚心裡的預期嘛這些基層的公務人員他們退休了以後知道你們辛苦需要時間處理這大家都可以理解那我也肯定今天選區部表現了一個態度立法院三讀通過了法律你們會遵守 會執行這個態度非常的好"},{"start":3920.338,"end":3947.048,"text":"這個態度真的非常的好比現在行政院院長卓榮浩的套度啊好太多了那只是在具體執行的時間上你們說希望年底以前完成那就拜託選區部的同仁跟我們警政署的同仁加把勁因為對於這些退休警銷給他們保障這件事情他們期待了非常久法律完成三讀的盡量能夠趕快真正的施行謝謝"},{"start":3951.442,"end":3953.703,"text":"謝謝 下一位我們請王逸川委員發言謝謝主席請教一下保訓會的主委"},{"start":3978.635,"end":3999.627,"text":"要修這個法 過去當然有一些爭議 希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的 如果我的理解沒有錯 目的就是加速"},{"start":4000.809,"end":4019.516,"text":"趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢"},{"start":4021.67,"end":4041.612,"text":"因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個資產霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來"},{"start":4042.173,"end":4059.678,"text":"就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障"},{"start":4060.839,"end":4077.541,"text":"處理程序 課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好 那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有做相關的修正"},{"start":4078.301,"end":4092.235,"text":"對不對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好 謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法這次的修正是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是"},{"start":4093.556,"end":4108.399,"text":"在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟"},{"start":4109.66,"end":4137.28,"text":"辦公場所執行職務的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢"},{"start":4138.02,"end":4154.905,"text":"從主管機關開始他設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個各機關必須設安全防護委員會那這裡面呢不管是性別或是外部人員呢都要"},{"start":4155.725,"end":4174.015,"text":"達到這個不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制啊經常保訓會啊會被質疑一件事情我們也會街道陳情叫做官官相護這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮啊就是說"},{"start":4175.176,"end":4187.634,"text":"反正送保訓會也沒有用,保訓會就是光光相護,負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭,進行相關的申訴、救濟的時候,也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的,我說了也都假說的"},{"start":4189.458,"end":4207.214,"text":"這個事情現在保訓會你們應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護"},{"start":4210.347,"end":4228.156,"text":"這個官官相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個這個所謂的官官相護其實是不會發生的因為"},{"start":4230.152,"end":4251.263,"text":"這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況"},{"start":4251.843,"end":4269.245,"text":"但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年"},{"start":4270.357,"end":4285.925,"text":"彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查"},{"start":4286.513,"end":4306.811,"text":"好那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告"},{"start":4311.295,"end":4324.841,"text":"保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是 他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法"},{"start":4328.643,"end":4354.624,"text":"有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘 聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請 聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好 那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎"},{"start":4357.342,"end":4370.387,"text":"資料庫 人才庫是公開的 實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊"},{"start":4377.546,"end":4393.707,"text":"報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後"},{"start":4394.932,"end":4412.28,"text":"在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的"},{"start":4412.74,"end":4433.804,"text":"所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫"},{"start":4434.284,"end":4453.415,"text":"好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就是說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定"},{"start":4456.178,"end":4479.125,"text":"是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢"},{"start":4480.085,"end":4495.012,"text":"兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制那一個機關不就要有兩套制度是吧"},{"start":4495.778,"end":4525.095,"text":"目前機關裡面就是這樣因為它的身分別還有跟機關的這個關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是呢我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的那個機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的這個路徑如果我們這個先弄了"},{"start":4525.578,"end":4536.509,"text":"那勞動部那邊相關的法規也跟上來了是那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好 謝謝你謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":4553.749,"end":4566.22,"text":"好 劉秘書長辛苦了這個雖然說我待會有第一個問題我就要先請教您然後之後呢還會再請教蔡主委保証會蔡主委以及權事部的懷懷恤懷次長"},{"start":4570.438,"end":4593.287,"text":"好那麼首先呢我想這個先請教劉秘書長因為本席其實一直都很關心有關於在國家考試裡面的出題委員和命題委員他們的費用調漲的問題就是能夠提高的問題那麼所以我在去年的時候其實就已經詢問過考試院那麼有沒有考慮要把"},{"start":4595.107,"end":4622.314,"text":"這個隨著物價的調整而且我們這是十幾年來都沒有調整過的命廷委員還有月券委員的費用進行合理的調整請問就是考試院現在有在做這方面的規劃了嗎是 謝謝委員長期以來對這個議題的關心剛好跟委員報告就是現在正在進行的考試院的院會其實就已經把這個案子排上去"},{"start":4622.834,"end":4646.938,"text":"那我們預計目前的方案應該是用未來兩年時間逐步的把審題命題月卷等等還有事務人員的費用分兩年的順序把它調高那這個案子今天通過之後我們暫時還不會公佈因為依照相關的法規這個要送到行政院去核准"},{"start":4647.566,"end":4663.761,"text":"是 那可以先透露一下大概會調高的幅度是多少嗎因為我們看到就是從明年開始的國考的報名費是調漲25.8%嘛是那麼所以接下來像生命體育費 月券費呢調整的比例"},{"start":4664.903,"end":4693.118,"text":"這個比例我查一下會後我再提供給委員請問為什麼要兩年才能夠達到你們所謂的要求他應該是分批調整啦然後他希望說不要一下造成考選基金太大的負擔所以他先就委員關心的像命題月卷這個部分會先做調整那有一些市場的事務人員的部分會第二階段會再跟上來所以我們就是說一下調整可能增加的支出會對考選基金造成比較大的負擔"},{"start":4693.658,"end":4718.135,"text":"是所以現在還不知道說你明年已經有方案了嗎對我們應該是預定應該明年就會上路了然後隨便提費呢要調漲多少%這個我數字要踩因為我今天資料沒有帶過來好那就麻煩我會後再提供我請考卷部提供給委員好的好的謝謝秘書長然後另外就是說有關於這個預算價的問題因為本席在這個這次我有特別提"},{"start":4719.036,"end":4742.425,"text":"提案要修法公務人員任用法第28條之一然後將原來只有育嬰假請育嬰可以留置庭薪那麼也可以增加就是由育孫也可以留置庭薪我剛其實進來的時候有聽到環區次長有說這個部分似乎不需要修法直接修辦法就可以了"},{"start":4742.785,"end":4765.247,"text":"可是呢本席的看法是認為說其實我們應該要把這件事情提升它法律位階但在法律裡面明定那麼未來這個就是這個主管機關的責任你們就應該要依法律來訂定相關的辦法那麼我認為這樣的法律有這樣的法律授權依據那未來行政機關也比較好辦事否則可能"},{"start":4766.148,"end":4792.956,"text":"不知道會不會換了一個政黨然後又換了一套做法那麼同時這個事實上就算是我們現在明定在法律裡面有預算有預算價相關的事情細則還是由權序部這裡去擬定相關的辦法是考試院還是權序部要去擬定相關的辦法所以我個人認為說這樣的修法還是有必要的那請問次長您的看法您是否同意我的見解"},{"start":4793.636,"end":4808.019,"text":"跟委員報告就是說那個委員的提案方向我們都支持只是說我們在看這個文字的時候覺得因為嬰就是小孩子的意思就是幼兒的意思那我們也仔細就看過您提案的這個文字內容"},{"start":4808.8,"end":4821.718,"text":"因為委員是在意的是我們目前留職聽信辦法上面因為留職聽信辦法也是它的法源依據也是來自於公園任用法的法源依據是它已經有法源依據那您這邊是比較認為說我們有給它設的但書條件覺得這不OK所以我們部裡面也認為"},{"start":4826.864,"end":4846.5,"text":"這個方向是可以尊重的所以我們就認為說或許呢如果在這種情況下這個本法可以不用修正但是我們會把您所在意的這個部分因為那是行政規則我們就直接把它修掉了那這樣就不會那個所謂那個但書那部分就整個拿掉未來它就是完全跟那個"},{"start":4847.816,"end":4862.496,"text":"就是育嬰的概念 嬰就是發繁孫當然我們還尊重最後因為這是立法政策的問題就是說基本上方向我們都認為可以去做只是說技術上我們認為我們很快就可以把它促進"},{"start":4862.756,"end":4866.358,"text":"其實次長說明我想就說我們修法的部分因為今天提案了接下來可能也會排審那麼我還是非常希望我們這個案子能夠三讀通過那當然我也很希望全序部就能夠趕快加緊腳步了如果說您說修現在的辦法就可以做的話那就可以趕快來檢討相關的辦法是不是可以放寬那個遇孫的條件那也希望全序部能夠盡速的提出相關辦法的修正案"},{"start":4890.049,"end":4899.157,"text":"好 那麼接下來有關於職場霸凌的部分呢我想要幾個問題就叫這個保訓會主委不好意思 先任總 先是任總喔那麼因為其實從去年以來我們看到有好多機關接連發生主管霸凌公務人員的案件那麼所以呢 任總在去年其實也成立了職場霸凌案件的通報平台那麼本席曾經有函詢任總有關於現在這個通報"},{"start":4918.933,"end":4926.894,"text":"平台的通報以及處理情形就霸凌平台的通報及處理情形的狀況為何那麼任總在3月27號的時候有回覆給我目前所收到的案件數那麼以及進入調查程序的數量那麼總共有327件收到327件進入調查程序71件然後只有3件是成立職場霸凌案還有138件在處理那本席想問的就是說又三個月過去了"},{"start":4948.658,"end":4952.955,"text":"那麼到目前為止有多少件就是你們已經有收了多少件"},{"start":4954.331,"end":4980.572,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前統計到5月31號就是說從我們霸凌平台成立去年12月13號到5月31號我們收件收了485件那目前已經結案的案件有358件那處理中的有79件測案的有48件那成立的呢成立霸凌案件有20件"},{"start":4981.613,"end":5002.585,"text":"已經從3件跳到20件所以代表說你們現在成立這個霸凌通報平台我認為其實是有發揮一些作用的畢竟可以從這個通報平台當中知道到底有多少的公務員覺得說他在職場上面受到霸凌那這個部分的話我也希望說人種能夠儘速的將霸凌"},{"start":5005.626,"end":5022.517,"text":"平台處理的結果要做適當的公佈那麼甚至之後成立的案件它的態樣是怎麼樣你可以去識別化但是可以把這些案件可以公佈出來然後讓各機關各公務員都知道如果說有遇到這種職長霸凌的情況是要如何這應該是保訊會的業務嗎還是任總報告委員 對這個其實我們只要審議結果確定以後那"},{"start":5032.704,"end":5036.757,"text":"都會公告在這個我們的這個公開資訊裡面是"},{"start":5039.255,"end":5056.568,"text":"所以這個是就像委員說這是後續的分析什麼的是目前是我們都有在做好的OK好那就希望你們都再努力那麼接下來就是有關於在這次的草案裡面其實有看到不管是19條之一19條之二其實都有針對所謂機關首長經過任地職場霸凌的話那會處罰還那麼當然剛剛黃國昌委員有提到在這草案裡面看起來其實對於機關首長的定義不是很清楚"},{"start":5068.817,"end":5086.923,"text":"那不仅是机关首长定义不清楚之外还有对于所谓负责人员你负责人员跟机关首长到底有什么区别请问负责人员跟机关首长有什么区别以及负责人员以及机关首长他的涵盖范围到哪边像科长啊局长司长算不算"},{"start":5088.561,"end":5117.521,"text":"跟委員說明機關首長就是 誠如我剛剛這邊所講依照中央機關組織基準法首長他就是明定在這個各機關的組織法裡面的那個只有一個但是負責人他就是是現場的這個狀況所以他可能是從科長他可能到司長他也可能是到可能是主任或者是次長那主要就是負責人是指在公務人員執行職務的現場他有比較"},{"start":5118.257,"end":5144.133,"text":"高度的關係性然後他代替機關首長在行使這個監督管理的這個角色跟功能的人所以呢這個兩者的差異是不一樣那當然機關首長在特殊的在一些情況底下他也可能就是負責人是順便說未來按照這個主委的意思就是說可能負責人他會有不同層級的而且也可能會有多重的負責人"},{"start":5144.893,"end":5164.303,"text":"那麼是不是未來可以就是定立一個類似XOP的這種做法到底在什麼樣的業務底下他的負責人是誰然後他的首長是誰否則的話其實對於很多的這個可能有就是總是公務員裡面有高低階的這樣的一個職等那會不會高職等就認為說我其實"},{"start":5166.724,"end":5188.799,"text":"很莫名其妙的就被視為是負責人到底所謂的監督關係我覺得這都不是很清楚那麼因此呢本席也希望就是說保訊會在這個部分可以把它定的更清楚或是說未來能夠提供一些相關的案例標準然後可以讓大家有所參考有所依循"},{"start":5189.902,"end":5217.395,"text":"跟委員報告就是各機關都有分層負責明細表那當然機關首長這個如果從這個最廣義來講他就是他可能會被苛責的範圍很多但是呢基本上各機關的這個授權或是這個什麼時候是屬於誰是負責人這件事情都有這個分層負責明細表就會列不過非常謝謝委員的提醒就是說未來我們在指引跟通韓的裡面我們會特別的去強化"},{"start":5218.215,"end":5245.918,"text":"請各機關要注意這一點 謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝翁委員 好 欸那個欸 劉秘書長 因為我看你臉色真的沒有很好你是不是考慮請假 因為我知道沒關係 委員會讓我把這個任務完成 謝謝對嗎 因為我們都知道你真的很有心希望我等一下不申請我再跟委員報告 我再跟您告假好了好 好 好 因為我看你臉色我希望說你都真的應該有慢慢恢復好 好 好 謝謝秘書長"},{"start":5247.267,"end":5261.721,"text":"那接下來我們請翁曉琳委員代理主席好 現在有請吳宗憲委員發這個諮詢"},{"start":5267.042,"end":5295.888,"text":"好首先我是因為昨天我們國民黨有許曉欣委員他有提到一個問題就是陳菊院長的問題那我想說這邊就順便剛好今天我們在討論這有關公務員的部分那我想先也把一些問題提出來問一下那當然我也是希望說那個陳菊院長能夠早日康復我想請教一下就是"},{"start":5299.184,"end":5327.026,"text":"人事 人總這邊我想請問一下就是像院長級別的像這種政務官他這個人事的問題這個是由誰來主管監察 以監察院來講的話這個監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權對對 任命那我是說他一些相關的一些公務體系上面他有關人事的部分這個是由誰來主管"},{"start":5329.695,"end":5352.675,"text":"目前現行來講的話 應該還是在考試院考試院 好 謝謝秘書長我想請教一下就是因為昨天我們有委員提出來說這個院長他已經請病假五個月了我想了解一下這過往有沒有主觀因病請病假到五個月這麼久的紀錄"},{"start":5357.169,"end":5380.603,"text":"所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那"},{"start":5385.106,"end":5399.175,"text":"好 那沒關係喔 那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說 擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長 有沒有這個規範"},{"start":5404.882,"end":5417.595,"text":"我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假是有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假"},{"start":5418.095,"end":5434.162,"text":"那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告"},{"start":5434.622,"end":5448.508,"text":"好的 這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好 謝謝"},{"start":5449.989,"end":5473.442,"text":"好 那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個 最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第六條或是刑法129條"},{"start":5475.223,"end":5503.313,"text":"那如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看看請全序部跟排斥來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎"},{"start":5506.552,"end":5535.194,"text":"會啊 會影響啊這邊我想說 這邊就是做一個論述 一個確定就是說 因為我之前有對一個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話 那將來判決確定假設判有罪 萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這個部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下"},{"start":5537.525,"end":5558.703,"text":"那我再來請問一下 就我們這次修法我們這次修法 我想請教秘書長這次修法 其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到 就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的"},{"start":5560.993,"end":5576.46,"text":"是不是社會因為其實在這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善"},{"start":5576.98,"end":5593.816,"text":"那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員啦都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼那我的意思是"},{"start":5594.617,"end":5612.113,"text":"像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單嘛就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解啦所以說"},{"start":5615.034,"end":5635.243,"text":"既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利的對待的時候"},{"start":5636.343,"end":5665.375,"text":"他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下"},{"start":5666.235,"end":5682.617,"text":"民主黨您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任"},{"start":5685.439,"end":5711.928,"text":"這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民進黨報告因為我們保障草案十九之一條啦其實我看了一下那個十九之一條草案他還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部"},{"start":5713.068,"end":5742.068,"text":"機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案"},{"start":5745.85,"end":5760.041,"text":"其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊"},{"start":5761.302,"end":5787.827,"text":"好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對於勞工"},{"start":5788.587,"end":5800.991,"text":"但是如果是勞工的話他的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠"},{"start":5805.993,"end":5834.988,"text":"把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是 謝謝方教練否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧"},{"start":5837.151,"end":5839.798,"text":"那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下"},{"start":5841.326,"end":5869.834,"text":"當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來寫出說明麻煩主委"},{"start":5871.076,"end":5890.96,"text":"跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性"},{"start":5891.772,"end":5911.239,"text":"更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢"},{"start":5911.915,"end":5926.922,"text":"過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面"},{"start":5929.721,"end":5949.1,"text":"不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好 那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國它不像歐洲它有一個遺忘權的這個法制概念所以說歐洲它有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西"},{"start":5949.58,"end":5968.548,"text":"但因為我國目前沒有所以我如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到"},{"start":5969.028,"end":5990.235,"text":"那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是"},{"start":5991.835,"end":6010.76,"text":"呃 不是說持續性不重要 而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是即成犯 直接就做完了但是呢 他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再 可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這部分主委報告謝謝委員是 好 那那個 最後我想說齁"},{"start":6012.509,"end":6027.658,"text":"我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的"},{"start":6028.138,"end":6049.572,"text":"那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌 主委"},{"start":6050.622,"end":6072.201,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像"},{"start":6072.711,"end":6102.251,"text":"符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好 以上謝謝是 不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告 機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢 基本上呢"},{"start":6104.352,"end":6122.745,"text":"這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下記錄以上好那沒問題那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再忙主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好謝謝各位各位辛苦了好謝謝吳宗憲委員剛剛吳宗憲委員有提到有關於那個員工職場80"},{"start":6132.864,"end":6150.633,"text":"處理小組或者在安慰辦法裡面所講的調查小組因為調查小組裡面它有一定的比例外部的成員比例要大於二分之一可是事實上我們有看到有些機關裡面的員工職場霸凌處理小組裡面的成員"},{"start":6153.354,"end":6164.981,"text":"外部委員的比例其實是沒有大於二分之一的或者是說根本沒有明定那麼這個部分的話我也希望考試院或者是保訓會這裡可以去先通盤盤點一下各個部會機關裡面他們自己本身所定的員工職場霸凌處理小組裡面"},{"start":6170.925,"end":6191.856,"text":"他們的外部委員的比例以及人數是多少譬如說以我這邊有看到就是像司法院他根本也沒有定所謂的外部委員那麼這個部分的話可能要都了解整個機關的情況之後我們再來這個細緻化討論相關的這個外部成員比例會比較妥當好麻煩好那接下來請審發會委員發言謝謝"},{"start":6203.588,"end":6231.121,"text":"主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個目前這個在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的一個共識希望能夠盡速的完善立法"},{"start":6232.391,"end":6252.111,"text":"來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善我看今天雖然我們要審的草案非常多包括考試院、貓民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案"},{"start":6253.151,"end":6280.288,"text":"那我想大概這些修正草案大概大家這個除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多最主要就是第一個要提升這個這個讓這個機關讓這國家附有這個防止公務人員這個免受不法侵害霸凌不法侵害的這樣的要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務"},{"start":6282.169,"end":6302.951,"text":"這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點"},{"start":6303.812,"end":6317.873,"text":"另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條"},{"start":6320.392,"end":6325.078,"text":"這個也是第19條的規定裡面那接下來相關配套的這些懲處啦19條之一懲處啦那這個罰緩啦那還有這個機關責任等等這些相關強化這個機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文"},{"start":6338.342,"end":6364.779,"text":"那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條"},{"start":6366.822,"end":6382.614,"text":"剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說"},{"start":6384.135,"end":6405.63,"text":"這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個"},{"start":6413.24,"end":6436.398,"text":"我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們又以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個霸淫的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會"},{"start":6440.361,"end":6466.702,"text":"這邊來是不是我們這個法條的內容是是嗎 這個持續性那我除了這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是"},{"start":6467.85,"end":6477.417,"text":"情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟我們報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去"},{"start":6493.863,"end":6511.624,"text":"先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌"},{"start":6512.864,"end":6531.669,"text":"到底是不是情節重大 因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對 所以那個情節重大 因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大 舉證責任對 舉證責任 就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組 外部機關他就會去決定 我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證 還是這個"},{"start":6541.175,"end":6548.596,"text":"霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方"},{"start":6549.628,"end":6575.742,"text":"是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證?是好,這個明明就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大,對不對?是不是這樣?是好,這是第一個啦那第二個接下來我們在這個有關這個職場霸凌的這個申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種"},{"start":6576.883,"end":6603.309,"text":"一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分一個是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者他的申訴的期限是不一樣的"},{"start":6605.271,"end":6625.22,"text":"權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有一點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的"},{"start":6631.823,"end":6658.648,"text":"好這部分我們等一下逐條的時候我需要逐條之前說明清楚是好請跟委員報告這個就是權勢的跟非權勢呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關他本身這個人呢他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟"},{"start":6660.046,"end":6669.531,"text":"這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更"},{"start":6687.639,"end":6700.17,"text":"關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關"},{"start":6703.427,"end":6729.298,"text":"有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重一公元懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇"},{"start":6730.658,"end":6747.671,"text":"說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處的責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。"},{"start":6753.924,"end":6780.969,"text":"我們要知道我們的公務人員相關的法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確性原則有所抵觸"},{"start":6783.306,"end":6801.682,"text":"這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在"},{"start":6807.23,"end":6829.96,"text":"第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為"},{"start":6832.267,"end":6858.969,"text":"你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要"},{"start":6860.072,"end":6874.955,"text":"等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個秘書長我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好 以上謝謝委員好 接下來請吳思堯委員"},{"start":6895.902,"end":6909.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席建信秘書長你現在的狀況真的要保重身體喔真的平常忙於公務也要關心自己的健康真的很不捨我們剛剛都嚇壞了"},{"start":6911.282,"end":6928.036,"text":"你應該也要沒有吃早餐的我也沒吃早餐會貧血我們要吃點早餐再上工那今天我們在討論職場反霸凌而且是公務體系的法制化事實上如果要問我們的公務體系而且有來立法院備詢的"},{"start":6929.497,"end":6948.847,"text":"其實立法委員我們也真的要自我檢視我們恐怕往往成為造成公務部門同仁身心靈壓力很大的一個厄緣我們希望問政大家都能夠專業理性然後一起來彼此尊重那今天回到我們的主題下一頁"},{"start":6949.767,"end":6958.73,"text":"我在整理資訊的時候我赫然發現考選部有一個統計從2014到2024這10年來公務人員報考的人數從354308位一直下降到2014年只剩下166000位來報考等於是10年報考公務人員的人數遭腰斬所以鐵飯碗不再熱門鐵飯碗不再是鐵飯碗了嗎"},{"start":6978.908,"end":7006.349,"text":"那考試員有沒有觀察到這樣子的狀況跟委員報告就是說的確有這樣的一個狀況那也跟委員說明就是大概公務員報考人數他如果長期來看的話大概在民國100年左右是一個高峰前面比較低後面也比較低那但是現在當然有各種因素包含少子化包含民間的就業機會增加因為經濟發展的狀況那民間薪資的誘因等等選擇也更多了有更多的選擇"},{"start":7007.31,"end":7036.673,"text":"所以這個的確有這樣的現象我們也有一直在注意跟觀察但我們還是需要下一頁持續的招募人才而且要留住人才再加上打造一個友善的職場缺一不可這就是我們在面對我們無論如何我們看到台灣的人才多元願意往私部門服務也都是好事但是我們也希望能夠有更多有志於公眾事務的朋友們願意投入公務體系的工作"},{"start":7037.273,"end":7062.579,"text":"那這幾年來我們流財攬財友善職場做了很多加薪減壓打造職場的更friendly這個缺一不可那我特別要肯定賴清德總統提出來的6年50億的全民心理健康任性計畫要強化支持現在公務體系的EAP的支持方案我們要持續做下一頁"},{"start":7063.419,"end":7086.694,"text":"而加薪我們這幾年來從蔡總統到賴總統四度為公務體系加薪加薪14%反觀馬英九前總統只加薪了一次3%那現在因為立法院在刪減總預算以至於我們的薪水加薪3%今年遭到延宕目前應當都陸續發放了吧"},{"start":7092.098,"end":7107.274,"text":"那加薪14%我們如果經濟發展好稅收增加我們持續的為公務同仁來增加薪水增加大家投入公務體系的誘因下一頁好剛剛講的加薪之外第二個就是減壓"},{"start":7108.815,"end":7122.48,"text":"那我也在利用這一次的機會我謝謝考試院謝謝全序部思堯一路倡議的公務體系的新理假從校園然後開始延伸到公務體系你們現在正在修正請假規則嗎"},{"start":7125.524,"end":7148.87,"text":"好我做出提醒我谢谢你们回应了我的倡议现在给予公务体系的身心调试假公务同仁是每年三日我支持但是在公务人员请假规则第三条的第三项我希望你们再回去听一下因为你们现在这个条文的写法是意思是说还是先去请试假啦"},{"start":7149.91,"end":7176.318,"text":"然後呢如果市價請滿了那身心價再來說啦好像還是這個方向我非常在乎的是身心調市價它不是只是一個價可以放幾天是我們國家藉由這個價別能夠去掌握公務體系的同仁們我們可以follow可以追蹤誰去請了身心調市價可能他的家庭他的情感"},{"start":7176.898,"end":7191.095,"text":"他的交友狀況或是工作壓力產生了我們需要協助的部分所以在請假規則第三條第三項的部分是不是可以請詮釋從詮釋部再思考斟酌一下好嗎"},{"start":7191.696,"end":7205.847,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們基本上請身心架是不需要要先請其他架作為前提但是因為委員您剛剛這樣講就是說我想您的質詢我們去檢視一下那文字會不會產生這個問題謝謝您我們會去再看一下會不會產生誤解否則一般就會覺得它是一個最後最後然後請滿了之後再額外我想這個意義上就不對了好嗎我們對於身心調適的支持"},{"start":7218.416,"end":7245.246,"text":"反映在你們的請假規則的修訂好我都尊重也感謝但希望能夠做到更好不要為德不足好下一頁那今天的主題就是霸凌防治的三支箭今天我希望保障法可以快速的大家有共識能夠送出委員會那之後還有考機法針對霸凌加害者這個記過的這些懲處是第二關考機法什麼時候可以送"},{"start":7246.189,"end":7260.668,"text":"我們已經送了已經送了好那希望我們下週中瑞雄招委可以儘速來排審那安慰辦法其實是整個公務體系的霸凌防治的執行面向都在安慰辦法目前的進度"},{"start":7261.449,"end":7269.174,"text":"行政院會選送回來考試院應該在昨天送回來所以目標7月1號應該沒有問題嗎目標我們目前暫定應該定於7月1號發布因為也公告一段時間我也希望立法院的委員們我們這麼投入霸凌防治在公務體系如果對於安慰辦法有任何具體的建議都可以在這段時間趕快提供給我們的考試部門能夠有正向的意見就採納"},{"start":7287.967,"end":7311.523,"text":"那基本上缺一不可 保障法 考機法 安慰辦法我們都希望在這個會期 七月底之前都能夠完備這是我們共同的目標 下一頁萬事起頭難 再難也要做五大面向的保障法 民進黨團 包括吳斯堯本人我都全力支持 我都全力支持 下一頁但是呢 有幾個問題垂詢一下"},{"start":7313.524,"end":7333.512,"text":"霸凌防護不破網人力的量能要補足啊以後保訓會你的責任重大一個是人才一個是人力我先講人力喔你們保訓會的員額有沒有因應新的霸凌防治保障法的修訂之後因為你們大量的投入員額有沒有給你們"},{"start":7336.067,"end":7346.644,"text":"跟委員報告 足夠的人力跟委員報告 謝謝委員這麼關心這個很重要的這個量能問題那我們之前有去這個跟"},{"start":7347.942,"end":7375.892,"text":"人事總署有去跟人事總署蘇仁市長提這個問題我們也有給了一個很合理的暫時提出你們也不敢自己大開口嗎因為現在是給你們幾個給我們幾個希望爭取幾位因為我們自己也盤點我們內部有一些同仁本來就是具勞動背景"},{"start":7376.952,"end":7385.455,"text":"所以呢再加上我們的處也會我們先行整併啦這是一般機關在申請原額的時候一定要做的所以呢經過盤點以後呢我們是去跟這個蘇仁市長說我們希望能夠有這個20位但是當然這個是我們很理想的狀態所以呢當然蘇仁市長他基於這個中央原額基準法還有要恪守這個立法院"},{"start":7401.762,"end":7419.281,"text":"對於員額的這個控管嘛這是立法院過去以前的決議所以他目前給了我們覺得現階段我們剛開始上路應該是可以啦先給十位進員額十位先求有再求好十位好這是有關人力的部分好"},{"start":7419.701,"end":7445.405,"text":"那我覺得以後如果上路之後可能大家也在這個制度的運行更有經驗可能人力的量能那一來可能是大家上手了人力可能不需要那麼多但也有可能因為相關的案例暴增顯現更需要人力我們都希望人事總署可以來支持那第二個是人才因為我們都要建置很多的專家委員會要增加霸凌防制的專業人才你的專家學者資料庫要協助各級政府啊各公務機關你們怎麼進行跟委員報告"},{"start":7448.846,"end":7460.152,"text":"就是目前我們已經有在鑽你那個人就是專家學者人才庫的設置要點好那這個部分呢我們也會去這個跟"},{"start":7462.679,"end":7485.885,"text":"教育部 衛福部 還有勞動部因為他們本來也有一些專業的部分其實校園也很多對 就是校園霸凌的部分所以這是主要三大部會他們的人才庫已經有建置而且是建置得很完整那我們會去跟他們請益同時因為這當中很多的專家學者他的性質是一樣的"},{"start":7486.705,"end":7502.836,"text":"所以我們會藉由這個部分然後跨部會來協力所以人力是重要人才是重要的這才能夠讓真正的執行能夠穩健然後最後剛剛我聽到夏業最後希望說今天委員會能夠來支持民進黨團會提出幾個修正動議"},{"start":7505.337,"end":7511.882,"text":"第一個修正動議就是回應剛剛審發會委員一直在垂詢的要明定應負責人員的定義要來落實明確性所以說民進黨團會提出是9條之一第二項對於所謂的應負責人員細指機關首長或於該工作場所中代表機關首長實質執行管理"},{"start":7527.654,"end":7530.275,"text":"指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之人好盡可能用這個條文來補強讓他更明確第二個呢第102條第三項在申訴適用的範圍也要明確化也希望委員會能夠支持民進黨團的修正動力好最後一頁"},{"start":7543.82,"end":7546.161,"text":"那針對整個安全衛生事故審議小組的這個建制民進黨團提出兩個修正動議一個是授權給保訓會去訂定相關的規範針對後續的審任採取的原則審閱的程序跟組成由保訓會定之我希望在條文裡頭增列這個讓你們好做事有法源那19條之二的第三項呢"},{"start":7569.17,"end":7571.533,"text":"強化調查權跟裁罰權也就是未來你們要去強化真的要走到公務機關去進行這個反霸凌的防治也就是所謂的檢查檢查工作要落實我希望能夠入法這個部分我想我們考試院應該都支持吧"},{"start":7588.73,"end":7603.558,"text":"協助你們把法更完備好最後有一點點這個心聲想要表達一下我跟培餘過去都是在教育文化委員會思堯是從2016年上任我們優先從校園法辦反霸凌上手"},{"start":7604.298,"end":7623.246,"text":"因為我們非常的遺憾校園的霸凌事件平仁當我們檢視了法規才發現校園欠缺反霸凌的處理的機制所以我們循過去在校園建置這個性騷性侵害相關的性平"},{"start":7624.566,"end":7651.847,"text":"機制的整個制度的運作我們好不容易好不容易在校園催生了全國一體試用各級學校的校園反霸凌防治準則這是我們努力從2016大概努力到前兩年剛剛完備但是也有人在倡議校園是不需要反霸凌的專法但這個恐怕如果"},{"start":7653.331,"end":7681.188,"text":"如果要等一個反霸凌的專法才能夠去執行校園的反霸凌那恐怕要等很久的時間所以我們都compromise先用一個霸凌防治準則在校園那同樣的在公務體系因為一個遺憾的事件讓我們更正視了公務體系要能夠有明確的公務體系反霸凌的作為那我絕對支持從保障法先行"},{"start":7682.287,"end":7701.921,"text":"保障法先行,也許有人認為要一個專法,或有人認為要適用職安法,跟私部門一起管理,但是那就是賣戶期啦,那就是我們要抓漏,再來搞都更,先抓漏,所以我希望今天朝野各黨都能夠有高度的共識,讓"},{"start":7703.382,"end":7727.598,"text":"保障法今天完成審議我也希望不需要送協商也不需要去表決我們可以理性的正向的來討論法案然後讓他在這個會期完成立法趕快上路讓公務體系反霸凌可以做得更好好 建新秘書長身體健康一切平安這是對您的提醒也是對我自己的提醒我們下次一起吃完早餐再上工好 謝謝"},{"start":7732.419,"end":7734.026,"text":"接下來請陳培宇委員"},{"start":7751.325,"end":7766.679,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好剛剛思瑤跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力"},{"start":7767.199,"end":7796.381,"text":"不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法安慰辦法他跟職安法各自做了保護如同思瑤剛剛說的我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題是不是今天我們就往這樣方向修"},{"start":7798.807,"end":7803.891,"text":"謝謝委員 這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部"},{"start":7821.844,"end":7834.88,"text":"是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的"},{"start":7835.939,"end":7853.089,"text":"去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明 謝謝沒問題 好 那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造局所以我們後續往這裡努力好 我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況"},{"start":7854.17,"end":7871.687,"text":"不管是已經成案的撤案的或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那"},{"start":7873.468,"end":7894.626,"text":"這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程讓所有有關事涉的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒喔"},{"start":7895.426,"end":7921.193,"text":"處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前我們開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程"},{"start":7925.475,"end":7954.394,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前呢這個是我們目前還在進行規劃中的一個部分但是當然還沒有規劃到這麼仔細那我們會這個遵照這個委員所提供的教育部的這個調查的這個這個看起來非常非常整密因為場域可能不同對象不同但是我們會盡可能的讓他整個的這個申報還有包含整個調查是盡可能的"},{"start":7954.864,"end":7958.965,"text":"周延、縝密然後呢外部監督的這個比重"},{"start":7960.031,"end":7974.556,"text":"高一點還有那個公開透明那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外"},{"start":7985.76,"end":8004.905,"text":"那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後"},{"start":8007.626,"end":8023.127,"text":"有一些學校的案件可能就固定習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是"},{"start":8024.028,"end":8046.839,"text":"受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子"},{"start":8047.359,"end":8057.769,"text":"那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊"},{"start":8064.074,"end":8082.221,"text":"那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防備非常非常的重要好不好"},{"start":8084.403,"end":8102.404,"text":"好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署"},{"start":8103.986,"end":8132.685,"text":"還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位"},{"start":8134.086,"end":8160.232,"text":"那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性"},{"start":8160.772,"end":8179.925,"text":"然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個職缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎?"},{"start":8182.682,"end":8210.836,"text":"是的 如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個工作他沒錯 他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷"},{"start":8211.576,"end":8233.681,"text":"那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法"},{"start":8236.142,"end":8257.383,"text":"這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動"},{"start":8258.985,"end":8269.514,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8271.371,"end":8276.396,"text":"所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面"},{"start":8293.092,"end":8308.898,"text":"那我們會提醒那個運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的那個履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去了解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有"},{"start":8310.019,"end":8318.905,"text":"這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管同仁我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了是"},{"start":8339.179,"end":8363.635,"text":"那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去"},{"start":8365.827,"end":8385.301,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、平野地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的"},{"start":8386.502,"end":8414.184,"text":"的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在機關中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同人需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對"},{"start":8414.924,"end":8436.449,"text":"所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對 所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席好 接下來就請羅志強委員"},{"start":8445.379,"end":8454.007,"text":"那麼我在這邊先做一個會議程序的宣告在羅志祥委員詢答完畢之後我們就先休息五分鐘然後之後再請莊越雄委員請"},{"start":8456.871,"end":8478.221,"text":"主席 我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委"},{"start":8479.562,"end":8494.916,"text":"那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義嘛那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說"},{"start":8496.237,"end":8523.829,"text":"職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以"},{"start":8524.309,"end":8548.38,"text":"成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案"},{"start":8548.905,"end":8567.524,"text":"那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來"},{"start":8568.157,"end":8593.682,"text":"那歧視、侮辱、言行或其他方式、敵意、脅迫、冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立"},{"start":8596.687,"end":8608.273,"text":"不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好 謝謝"},{"start":8609.52,"end":8626.473,"text":"那我還是要說以目前定義來看 我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委 你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼 您知道嗎"},{"start":8632.116,"end":8660.152,"text":"我沒有很清楚 那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異"},{"start":8661.593,"end":8686.603,"text":"定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告"},{"start":8691.129,"end":8719.518,"text":"情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某"},{"start":8720.673,"end":8737.61,"text":"這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的"},{"start":8738.17,"end":8759.717,"text":"這一次 就即使一次 但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢 他可能開始這個失眠然後害怕去上班 然後等等的那造成很多很多的身心症 甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節 這個重大者以上跟委員報告"},{"start":8761.069,"end":8780.698,"text":"我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個"},{"start":8781.658,"end":8810.903,"text":"例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧"},{"start":8811.673,"end":8834.86,"text":"就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施"},{"start":8835.6,"end":8849.145,"text":"否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字"},{"start":8858.749,"end":8885.59,"text":"跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的啦這是指過去有成案的呢不到十件啦應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低啊"},{"start":8887.711,"end":8915.557,"text":"每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訓會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訓會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定"},{"start":8916.636,"end":8934.851,"text":"我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場與其來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛,"},{"start":8935.592,"end":8956.979,"text":"那這個過程當中 公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這是為什麼今天我們會有這個所謂的討論 也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例 那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛那第一時間根據調查小組的回報"},{"start":8957.739,"end":8972.508,"text":"他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌"},{"start":8973.257,"end":8995.798,"text":"那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說"},{"start":8997.492,"end":9018.949,"text":"我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上 謝謝"},{"start":9022.267,"end":9028.098,"text":"好 謝謝盧委員那麼我們就先依先前的宣告現在休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續開會詢答"},{"start":9036.494,"end":9039.738,"text":"OK 等一等 等一下"},{"start":9056.349,"end":9056.389,"text":"謝謝各位觀眾"},{"start":9079.9,"end":9080.901,"text":"好了,好了,好了"},{"start":9103.373,"end":9104.355,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":9114.751,"end":9115.151,"text":"好,我們來試試"},{"start":9140.613,"end":9142.815,"text":"謝謝大家收看"},{"start":9166.67,"end":9166.85,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":9539.807,"end":9562.217,"text":"好 請各位就座我們現在要繼續開會好 那我們先請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不到那就接下來請莊月熊委員質詢"},{"start":9569.218,"end":9577.122,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天審這個新增的草案裡面整個職場霸凌不好意思秘書長有效果嗎秘書長不讓他離開的話審這個霸凌有點怪怪好像委員會在霸凌他一樣"},{"start":9598.479,"end":9622.51,"text":"這個雖然在司法法律委員會裡面常常一提這個劍拔弩張但是涉及到這個基本的健康人權的官員這也來是要監督但是也都是公務人員 尤其是高級文官這些都是國家好不容易栽培出來的那我想今天這個針對公務人員保障法跟公務人員安全衛生防護辦法新增的這個職權霸凌的專章"},{"start":9623.931,"end":9642.848,"text":"我們來看看這個制度到底有沒有缺口那針對公務人員保障法草案授權安慰辦法裡面新增的這個職場的一個霸凌這個專節裡面來幾個問題來救教我相信今天早上聽了以後大家針對這些修法的一個方向"},{"start":9644.309,"end":9649.891,"text":"朝野其實都表達正面的一個態度畢竟在公務體系裡面不乏層級明確然後權責非常集中你這個升遷仰賴評比制度的一個設計所以這個權勢的霸凌它不但是真實的存在而且你很難去揭露"},{"start":9667.417,"end":9688.075,"text":"這過去在公務機關尤其公務人員身份是在法制還沒有那麼健全的時候還在一個特別權利關係底下那很多很多的存在的這些不為外界所知道的這些職權的一個霸凌那我看在現在社會也高度的去做一個重視那在"},{"start":9692.387,"end":9713.388,"text":"這一次的一個草案裡面我也發現了幾個問題就是說你如果說霸凌者是權責的上級是一個上級的話那你申訴的一個程序如何真正的一個保障這個申訴人也就是說客觀性那個客觀性那以現在你草案的一個設計你遭遇這場霸凌的攻略你可以像所屬的"},{"start":9714.248,"end":9743.451,"text":"機關的防護委員會做申訴由委員會來決定是否來受理但我要請教一個簡單的保証一個簡單的問題就是說如果說疑似霸凌者跟委員會成員之間大家的家學生都家學生 熟識同單位甚至於平常就存在上下階層這個就是公務機關的一個常態那請問這樣的制度設計怎樣去保障這個申訴的人能夠很安心的去做申訴這個是不是可以先做一個"},{"start":9746.392,"end":9767.759,"text":"謝謝委員的指教跟委員報告就是說這個就是這一次我們會希望能夠擴大外部成員的專家學者外部人員進來的主要原因我們希望透過外部然後還有就是機關它如果有成立公務人員協會至少要有一名公務人員協會的代表"},{"start":9768.539,"end":9788.449,"text":"那這個希望就是能夠透過這樣的機制確保這個案子簡單講不會被吃掉不會被戳掉這是第一點第二點就是說除了這個安全衛生防護委員會以外目前各機關都有很多就是他就有首長信箱然後他也可以向上級機關去"},{"start":9791.357,"end":9816.569,"text":"向上級機關去申訴就是說他去投書等等那這些呢目前的機制呢各院跟各機關也都有在運作那當然第三點就是說因為整個政府組織他的層級節制的特性他是雙面任他可以是去為了讓這些機關首長還有各級主管負起責任還有就是他如果"},{"start":9817.77,"end":9832.951,"text":"這個知曦有霸凌他卻沒有處理他是要受到很多的處罰的那這個是他的一個好處那這是我們新加入的但是當然也沒有錯像委員講的那個就是我跟你認識嘛我一輩子"},{"start":9833.812,"end":9857.117,"text":"都跟你同一個機關那萬一剛好80的那個人呢是機關的副首長因為我們現在是明定副首長或者是幕僚長那這個可能案情會不會真的吃掉所以我們目前當然我們現在想的就是說透過更多元他一個人要吃案子其實他要經過很多的部分第一個人事單位因為組成裡面一定有人事人員"},{"start":9857.864,"end":9886.05,"text":"第二個外部學者第三個裡面會有陣風所以呢如果這樣他還能夠把那個案子吃掉實在應該我們判斷在實務上現在應該是不太可能另外一個就是有個數字就是說現在這個大家其實越年輕的世代他越勇於敢來揭發機關裡面他受到的不合理的對待而過去的幾年裡面我們"},{"start":9887.438,"end":9897.67,"text":"接到的霸凌案件還有就是做成的案件以去年來講是36件但是從就是從去年底到現在我們接到的再申訴"},{"start":9899.634,"end":9927.259,"text":"就光霸凌已經有超過90件表示說這個文化大家逐漸敢來再申訴啦所以委員擔心的問題呢我想我們目前在他通過以後我們會持續觀察是透過比較多的機制啦這個我在想 寶勳這個也特別這大家不用受騙你知道嗎機關裡面第一個上下第二個剛剛我們講的熟悉"},{"start":9928.479,"end":9946.273,"text":"最怕的工人最怕的是事後在那個職場裡面後面那種報復提出申訴以後常常伴隨著以後對整個他以後的升遷當事人會感到壓力我們其實不能去忽視的狀況"},{"start":9947.634,"end":9970.272,"text":"就是說你現在在防務委員會裡面 你由副首長跟幕僚擔任召集人 成員立功5到23 外部人員不得少於三分之一那其實你申訴對象如果是機關首長 雖然規定說要迴避啊但你整個機關的文化裡面 那種層級的壓力其實還是存在啦那如果是加害只是副首長或者處長 科室主管 委員會成員關係 大家可能性喔"},{"start":9971.332,"end":9982.92,"text":"這個關係密切的可能性那個更高啦所以導致委員是不是會受理或者說可能被牽制在關係的一個網路當中這個都必須要再去慎重那你在整個保訓會其實如果去確保如何去確保當霸凌者本身是機關權力核心的時候這個委員會裡面的客觀獨立的一個程序的一個啟動"},{"start":9996.628,"end":10018.314,"text":"這個都要特別特別的去關注 尤其這個常常到最後那有時候被標籤化的差不多大家機關內部會形成一種同仇敵愾這個都不是沒有發生過了那整個接下來要就教的就是說調查小組裡面你雖然納了外部成員但是你最後還是回到機關委員會裡面做這個定奪"},{"start":10020.555,"end":10048.914,"text":"那所以說這個公平性以現在草案的一個設計的話你說兩個月內完成報告然後外部成員不得少於二分之一這個都值得肯定但你調查結論又回到機關內部的防護委員會裡面來確認是否成立這個我就要問啦就是說你如果判斷最後還是委員會來做勢必也由他來做那你這個委員會又跟涉案的主管關係又這麼的密切"},{"start":10053.059,"end":10073.419,"text":"這樣的制度設計之下 基層人員他畢竟還是弱勢面對上次這樣一個霸凌 不敢說申訴無門但如何再更一步的一個確保 讓這個申訴的公務人員讓他去感受到 他有真正的一個保護傘"},{"start":10074.878,"end":10102.255,"text":"我覺得這是很重要的尤其啊尤其啊那你碰到這種權勢霸凌的問題的時候申訴對象通常都是丁詩啦通常都是丁詩啦那這樣的申訴到底困不困難大家都可想而知啦大家都可想而知但是整個法制的一個建立當然是一件好事啦尤其是你說要全面的讓它完備那"},{"start":10104.915,"end":10117.654,"text":"方向是對的啦但至少先讓他去啟動啦那但是呢我也在特別來做一個叮嚀啦就這個制度喔你也必須要去正視他的一個風險啦你說說從申訴的階段"},{"start":10121.56,"end":10144.327,"text":"環務委員會開始那就必須要去恪守必要的一個匿名性跟它的一個保密性如果不開始 一個申訴之後全部全部都拆掉這個部分是我們整個設計必須要去更完善的一個地方那我們更期待就是說訂這一部法律是要讓公務員遭遇到霸凌的時候不用在"},{"start":10146.347,"end":10154.555,"text":"很多都是隱忍到退休隱忍到退休然後呢讓申訴人這樣到最後還受到惡度的傷害這個程序我們就認為應該讓他更"},{"start":10163.364,"end":10190.246,"text":"對這個申訴人士更溫暖的所以本席也特別來提醒啦你安慰辦法裡面要求的是每一年去一次的定期主動的去做一個查核各機關的防護委員會的一個運作這個是最基本的一個要求啦最基本的要求不然搞不好你就搞不好都關關相護申訴調查沒有下文到最後變成形同具文啦那這個制度就會讓受害人越來越沉默"},{"start":10191.087,"end":10203.938,"text":"你受害人去申訴的人越來越沉默的話就形同你讓霸凌者就越來越猖狂我相信這個部分我們要特別去著墨的地方好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝鍾委員那接下來請鄭天才委員"},{"start":10222.621,"end":10242.774,"text":"主席 各位委員首先針對今天所要討論的郭蓮保障法要請教我們保訓會的主任委員這次的一個修正特別重要"},{"start":10244.904,"end":10262.907,"text":"因為前一陣子真的是這種職場的霸凌真的是非常的嚴重所以裡面現在特別增加在第19條病死公務員免於遭受職場霸凌等行為那第二項裡面"},{"start":10264.897,"end":10285.174,"text":"特別寫持續,這個持續這兩個定義未來怎麼樣去怎麼樣才算持續,這個時間到底是多久還是怎麼樣然後要造成這個敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性"},{"start":10286.523,"end":10305.714,"text":"之不友善工作環境這個都是需要釐清的部分所以這個部分這個要不要請主委說明一下跟委員報告就是有關於這個定義持續 脅迫或是敵意等等那這個是這整個的定義是我們"},{"start":10306.817,"end":10324.904,"text":"這個透過多場的這個法治徵詢然後呢也參考了整個職安法草案那所共同訂定下來一致性的這樣子的一個處理方式那所謂的持續呢基本上呢就是陳如委員講的那對於持續這個概念呢就是指說它可能"},{"start":10325.504,"end":10347.574,"text":"如果是這個整個要一起看因為後面有一個就是如果是情節重大但是如果今天舉例來講他是每天都比如說有一個主管他每天都就是習慣性的罵他的同仁說你豬頭我沒有要口出諱言我是舉例來講然後呢這個每天大概就這樣子就一段時間那"},{"start":10350.949,"end":10367.366,"text":"這個久了當然就會造成這個當事人他會自己開始去懷疑起自己那這個就是有持續性那敵意的話呢基本上當然我們知道說這種話是不應該說的嘛雖然可能他口頭禪可是這都不應該是這個就是要讓"},{"start":10368.737,"end":10386.174,"text":"怎麼樣讓公務人員了解所以你們除了條文是這樣規定之外相關未來通過之後相關的這些說明對相關的公務人員了解的部分是怎麼樣能夠把它做比較詳細的說明"},{"start":10387.837,"end":10412.388,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們已經開始著手這些相關的指引跟案例還有判準謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那現在就是這個第19條之一這條條文裡面這個因案情節輕重依公務員懲戒法公務人員考機法或其他相關法規這個如果是政務官"},{"start":10415.332,"end":10426.172,"text":"有適用到這幾個法會就是在我們目前的安慰辦法裡面好那這個只要是這一個"},{"start":10429.495,"end":10447.321,"text":"我們處理霸凌者他現在是明定有很多的機制可以用一個部分就是這邊我們所列舉的包含公務人員服務法、考機法、任用法這些都一定所有人事法制都可以用此外本來公務人員就有懲戒然後行政懲處這是考機法"},{"start":10448.325,"end":10477.168,"text":"那以我們現在的版本如果它還有涉及到行政法環的部分或是刑事通通都是總共至少有五個機制可以同時並用而且它沒有互相排斥的現象好 謝謝那接下來這個第21條特別增加公務員因機關未提供安全及衛生防護措施"},{"start":10478.414,"end":10507.076,"text":"增加這個然後還把這個還有修著這個致其生命身心健康受損失得以國家賠償法請求賠償那因為今天這個負責國家賠償法的我不知道他有沒有了解請問一下當初有沒有去跟保護部負責國家賠償的主管的部門有去他們有參與嗎"},{"start":10508.516,"end":10534.882,"text":"跟我們報告這一條是現行條文就是這樣所以在過去的這個立法過程裡面已經有跟他們有討論過那這一次這次只有增加新啦國賠法本來就是在的這一條本來就是現行條文只是我們增加一個新這件事而已就是讓執法的部分可以你們還增加這個未提供安全及衛生防護措施這個部分"},{"start":10542.871,"end":10553.759,"text":"這個部分他本來就是有但是我們這次寫得更清楚因為整部安慰辦法本來就是包含了安全及衛生的防護"},{"start":10555.78,"end":10572.545,"text":"這個因為國家培養法第三條本來就有規定了本來就有規定那現在這個做修正怎麼樣去做能夠能夠相互搭配合是一個很重要的好最後這個要請教那個前序部前序部這個針對"},{"start":10576.519,"end":10589.074,"text":"警察人員人事條例在114年4月25號已經公布施行這個修正的條文那現在這個開始適用了嗎"},{"start":10590.669,"end":10619.998,"text":"是跟那個委員報告那個因為法律已經生效了所以後續那個怎麼處理我們已經有跟內政部大概在4月29號6月5月16號跟5月28號那個有本部的政務次長跟內政部的次長有召開過後因為這個法律條文通過我想您我們大家也做公務員出身嘛那不是法律條文通過就可以馬上可以做出很多事出來那有一些程序性的積極性的技術性的問題都需要處理那這三次會議大概都有擬清清楚"},{"start":10620.518,"end":10643.551,"text":"那未來那個警政署這邊會再修正那個施行細則那因為他目前的這個退伍的作業程序是跟現行法律是不一樣的現行的退伍法不一樣那我們的資訊系統也是不一樣的所以這部分都需要再重新再做一些處理第一個您把後續需要做的事情"},{"start":10644.451,"end":10650.719,"text":"提個素面資料給我這第一個第二個要請前序部協助"},{"start":10653.784,"end":10672.378,"text":"請證書因為這個畢竟他們過去沒有自己負責過這樣的一個規定那私刑細則的部分請刑事部能夠來協助他們來把這個私刑細則能夠趕快的發布可以嗎這個我們都會一直有保持密切聯繫謝謝"},{"start":10681.343,"end":10692.861,"text":"好那接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在那接下來有請林月琴委員"},{"start":10709.721,"end":10714.718,"text":"好 等下就拜託我們的就是保訓會的主委"},{"start":10720.041,"end":10747.275,"text":"職場霸凌案件都是行為不法以上犯罪未滿多數案件很難以刑法規範因此要以行政法來處理實務上常以不當管理為不法行為開脫可是卻造成被害者的傷害所以想問主委這邊本法草案考試院定義職場霸凌把權勢關係跟冒犯行為抵抗環境等造成被害者身心傷害事實等因素都列入"},{"start":10748.215,"end":10766.34,"text":"並以持續性為要件在這個定義裡邊那我們的公務機關呢公務機關主管EQ不好不定期或不經意的用笨啊無能啊指特定的公務員是否構成"},{"start":10770.475,"end":10798.594,"text":"跟委員報告如果按照我們的定義這是構成的只是說目前因為很多的機關的文化或當事人甚至被霸凌者我們假定他是構成的他都不知道說這個其實是職場霸凌所以我們現在從6月中開始就會大量的開始去進行宣導輔導讓所有的公務人員跟各級主管知道其實你這樣子一般常用的就像剛剛委員舉的這個已經是很"},{"start":10800.715,"end":10826.503,"text":"很斯文很含蓄的了其實他如果說當事人他自己他感覺到他身心受創或是長期導致了我們講到他的一個信心不足了或等等這都構成那另外一個就是如果公務機關常發生事實上是公務員申請調職可是原單位卻主管卻押注案子導致公務員調不成這是不是也是屬於職場霸凌"},{"start":10829.01,"end":10854.687,"text":"呃 有關這一題呢 目前的這個就是在機關就主管的他的這個用人權跟這個當事人他要調離的權益之間呢他要怎麼橫評呢 目前是一個大家都在討論中的那這個部分呢 是不是請這個我們人事法規主管機關 懷次長來跟委員說明會比較清楚好 謝謝委員提問喔 那有關於這個部分"},{"start":10856.167,"end":10873.902,"text":"有關這部分我們目前本部要修改那個公務人員任用法適應細則大概過去機關所長有絕對的否準權那未來我們的修正是這樣大致跟您報告一下第一個就是說你收到商調公文你最遲一個月內就要同意商調"},{"start":10874.762,"end":10888.488,"text":"那你最長只能給他就是三個月內如果你不同意或怎樣他就自動生效三個月就會離開那麼如果經過三番譬如說當事人跟本機關還有去介紹機關有同意一個協調的實踐的話"},{"start":10890.049,"end":10918.024,"text":"那就尊重他們三環協調時間但這個也有一個天花板最多也就是只能延長三個月那因為我們也考慮到那個很多就在我們我們中央這種跟地方這種有些偏遠地區就花東啦或者是像台中啊或者是那個像這些偏遠地區他們很多機關也反映說那如果說是屬於在這種地方的機關你頂多就是只能在三個月所以就是都是三加三最多就是"},{"start":10918.464,"end":10947.632,"text":"所有其層上對我們已經把天花板設置就是機關已經沒有絕對否準權那我們也兼顧到說機關能力的因為畢竟不在地方政府或者還是實際在推動業務的那也考考慮到我們公務員自己的需求那我們在這兩者之間取得一個橫幅那目前在公告中在遵循各方意見中公務員報告好那主委一樣問你喔公務員本人或配偶因工作不愉快如果在臉書上發牢騷受到長官的當面關切是否構成"},{"start":10948.152,"end":10972.962,"text":"好那如果受到質問或嚴厲的質問的話這些是不是也構成跟委員報告就是說他如果是就是說如果是當事人的話呢那他受到長官的這個嚴厲的指責如果涉及到這個已經符合我們職場霸凌的這裡面的定義那甚至於影響了他"},{"start":10973.615,"end":10989.234,"text":"的這個工作譬如說威脅說你繼續再這樣的話那就怎樣怎樣怎樣那這個當然是構成職場霸凌是好 謝謝那在下一頁如果主管及霸凌者公務員如何內部申訴那為什麼不去建立外部的機制"},{"start":10990.315,"end":11009.702,"text":"有時候職長霸凌大概是職位高者對下屬做出一些冒犯的所謂的權勢霸凌公務員員以服從為天職的話面對機關的首長或主管公務員員要考慮到日後日整難過、深情無望、官官相互被刺案或是被反"},{"start":11011.038,"end":11029.654,"text":"反指誣告要不是就是忍耐多半是不敢申訴所以我很擔心是沒有有些空有法律可是實際上還是自愛難行所以想問在機關的立場上會不會因為家走不可外揚而要求公務員對機構內部發生的霸凌事件保密"},{"start":11031.499,"end":11054.389,"text":"跟我們報告外界的確會有這樣的擔心但是以目前特別是去年的一整波的職場霸凌的這些案件看起來這樣的機率會越來越少因為如果機關裡面有人要求所謂的家醜不可外揚其實它會造成更多的反彈這是第一點"},{"start":11054.989,"end":11077.18,"text":"第二點就是說其實他現在有非常非常多可以申訴或者是去爆料的管道那反而呢會讓機關陷於更大的困境所以機關只要知悉的話就是不一定要機關首長他可能告訴任何一位他比較信任的長官或者是同事那或者是人事單位或是政風人員"},{"start":11079.028,"end":11103.432,"text":"只要機關有人窒息那機關就必須這是法定要求他就必須開始去處理這個案件對啊當然話是這麼講可是桃園市政府去年便發生某處長指責下屬把內部醜事告訴配偶的新聞然後涉及到長官首長眼面時那申訴人要怎麼去相信申訴的過程是安全的調查是客觀的結果是公正的"},{"start":11106.948,"end":11134.675,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這一件案這個case呢基本上他就是他有去申訴了就我所知因為他是主管機關這個目前也有代表在這邊那這個他在這個調查過程就是說他不足但是我想其實當事人他也有一些證據顯示他其實是應該構成的所以這地方"},{"start":11135.667,"end":11163.496,"text":"這個因為他涉及個案所以我們保訓會就不清楚那目前這個如果這將來這個因為他是可以再提再申訴的那如果他再提他可以當事人他可以再提再申訴那到時候我們可能就會比較清楚這個過程是怎麼樣子的判斷我覺得主要是申訴人他感受到安全而且這樣的一個機制事實上是客觀他才能夠確保他會去做申訴好下一頁"},{"start":11164.376,"end":11179.152,"text":"就有時候情節重大案件當然應該進入到司法審判可是情節輕微的案件有時候會沒有辦法成立那個刑事的犯罪則要透過內部的處分來做處理可是如果兩照任一方不服處分的結果都是會"},{"start":11180.632,"end":11200.584,"text":"去複審再申述的救濟權唯有調解才能夠節省兩方的耗費心力可是台灣的公務體制的科程關係太強了公務員不太容易相信自己內部調查能不能夠公平除非有重大的改革所以想問主委說為了想調解有效而不是應付程序"},{"start":11202.785,"end":11217.777,"text":"希望要設立審議會讓程序公正第二是審議會的成員要能夠應對我們的民間團體成員是不是可以納入民間團體跟外部專家 您的看法是什麼"},{"start":11219.212,"end":11247.695,"text":"跟我們報告這個政府就是以我們目前的保障法加安慰辦法我們那個叫做調查小組那審議會指的是說如果是今天機關首長他是職場霸凌人那保訓會就會組成審議會那目前的在安慰辦法的規定裡面外部的人員就很多那這個外部的專家學者他有很多本身他就是一些公益性或是法律團體或是像"},{"start":11248.717,"end":11249.761,"text":"這個您目前所舉的這個譬如說法服的"},{"start":11252.799,"end":11277.412,"text":"裡面重要的的代表人所以目前的機制裡面其實就包含了這個部分是好因為有時候我覺得法條有時候想講專家學者很常就還是學者而沒有外部的其他的一些比較在執行這些相關處理這些事情的所謂的民間團體最後當然是期待這次的修法裡面能夠"},{"start":11279.614,"end":11304.831,"text":"就是擴大保護對象就是納入不當管理跟我們的職場霸凌跟其他語言的一些不法侵害然後建立內部的一個跟外部的並行機制希望我們還是把民間團體可以納入到我們的審議會的成員還有我們也希望說明確我們的申訴期間要有一個期限在我覺得保障公務人員的心心健康是國家的基本責任以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11308.49,"end":11311.703,"text":"王洪威委員"},{"start":11324.431,"end":11324.471,"text":"麥美娟議員"},{"start":11355.252,"end":11369.481,"text":"他已經先回去了我也是補充一下因為我覺得剛剛我們也是有一直希望秘書長先回但是秘書長就是認為說這是他的職務他堅持留下來所以我們是非常感謝秘書長"},{"start":11370.382,"end":11391.593,"text":"那因為我這段時間我的感覺是說有很多位祕書長有的我們請他來他不來有的我們請他回去休息他不願意這個差距真的差距太大所以我覺得今天我覺得也很那個應該是真的肯定他非常感動就是劉祕書長真的我剛好多次請他說真的回去休息然後他就說一定要留下來把植物做完"},{"start":11392.617,"end":11417.806,"text":"是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官是不是用"},{"start":11423.905,"end":11441.354,"text":"跟委員報告 政務官呢 他是 職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢 他是 現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用 是那我請問一下 那如果我們派駐 執法申訴的部分而已就是說我們的102條 就委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分"},{"start":11446.397,"end":11455.181,"text":"是執罷申訴的部分 它是準用的準用 好 所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用"},{"start":11475.639,"end":11486.406,"text":"她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊"},{"start":11488.06,"end":11510.756,"text":"我們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委 他也許是音樂家 他也許是歌手也許是某一位長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面 准用也都准用對 因為他們是屬於政務官好 那請問一下軍人准不准用"},{"start":11511.576,"end":11529.014,"text":"跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正就是我們目前不包含軍人"},{"start":11530.737,"end":11548.159,"text":"是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長"},{"start":11551.386,"end":11579.883,"text":"也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下 釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外"},{"start":11580.623,"end":11601.812,"text":"那麼過去我也有曾經質詢過因為我們考試院也曾經研修要修正公務人員考機法那我自己本人呢也提出了公務人員考機法的修正這個部分呢是使得在公務人員的他的獎懲裡面"},{"start":11604.174,"end":11619.673,"text":"有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷"},{"start":11620.894,"end":11634.977,"text":"跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何"},{"start":11649.451,"end":11677.252,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是說有關於公園就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公園考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公園考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸 性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來"},{"start":11677.452,"end":11687.882,"text":"所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好 那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷 姓騷有沒有"},{"start":11689.233,"end":11700.078,"text":"欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有 獨駕有沒有有 我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文了真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好 來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分"},{"start":11715.666,"end":11742.764,"text":"那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法"},{"start":11743.704,"end":11749.126,"text":"那像今天在修法裡面 比如說同樣的 這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面 它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法 它就有刑法了"},{"start":11760.931,"end":11767.757,"text":"那所以職安法認為很多對勞工來講是保障對基層公務人員也認為這樣對他的保障是比較全面的那我所了解的是其實你們也有在跟一些我們的這些公務人員的這些團體事實上他們也已經跟你們陳情然後你們也有跟他們開會所以我想了解一下"},{"start":11787.674,"end":11792.399,"text":"讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法 剛才也講"},{"start":11795.306,"end":11809.934,"text":"這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了 對不對那所以同樣的 所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講 就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度 還有你們目前的態度是什麼"},{"start":11822.264,"end":11832.011,"text":"公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案"},{"start":11833.919,"end":11856.995,"text":"安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院申請條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法"},{"start":11857.575,"end":11886.538,"text":"的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面"},{"start":11887.844,"end":11915.515,"text":"安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於"},{"start":11916.574,"end":11925.674,"text":"這一個我們自己該做的事情先把它完成那如果說未來 未來那大家覺得"},{"start":11927.274,"end":11951.255,"text":"這個不只是這三 這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對 沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們徵詢了很多的不只是這三個團體 很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說"},{"start":11951.929,"end":11972.424,"text":"要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好 你講了那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能"},{"start":11973.444,"end":11989.514,"text":"沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題"},{"start":11990.575,"end":12005.559,"text":"那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件"},{"start":12011.46,"end":12027.259,"text":"相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也沒有說就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個"},{"start":12029.181,"end":12047.847,"text":"我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢它比較是屬於未來式那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人員各類公務人員"},{"start":12048.427,"end":12053.232,"text":"這樣好不好 因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不定支持列入職安法"},{"start":12066.687,"end":12085.999,"text":"那你可不可以把你們 既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見 正反意見嘛 你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持 可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對 或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎 提供給我們辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":12090.219,"end":12106.115,"text":"跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以它這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並"},{"start":12107.455,"end":12122.745,"text":"不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態 好不好沒關係 你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛 對不對"},{"start":12124.286,"end":12125.726,"text":"我們現在修正這個公務人員保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢"},{"start":12143.391,"end":12156.984,"text":"會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會面臨的這些問題好不好好 以上謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":12160.766,"end":12179.251,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢那訓導結束委員執行時要提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請訴訟交個別委員及本會我們先處理會議時間的問題我們中午不休息上午會議時間持續進行到議程所列事項"},{"start":12182.381,"end":12209.218,"text":"好那我們現在進行討論事項處理前先宣讀條文由於第二案提案條文前已宣讀完畢其次人員宣讀第一案提案條文預估宣讀時間12分鐘如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出請緊述將書面報告送交主席台以立應發現場進行討論審查法案時請主要列席機關代表一致主席台後方"},{"start":12211.125,"end":12215.708,"text":"那宣讀時 如果已經有收到的修正動議也一併宣讀 宣讀後期進行討論好 請宣讀條文"},{"start":12219.827,"end":12239.647,"text":"殯案審查公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案等其案請參閱條文對照表委員蔡其章等18人提案第一條除將手續修正為為保障公務人員權益及提供合理工作環境其餘同性情條文委員徐欣盈等提案第18條各機關應提供公務人員執行職務必要之機具設備"},{"start":12241.368,"end":12263.334,"text":"裝備及良好工作環境考試院提案第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應予保障各機關對於公務人員執行職務應提供安全及衛生之防護措施並使公務人員免於遭受職場霸凌等行為有關辦法由考試院會同行政院定之前項所稱職場霸凌指本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會欲約職務上正當合理範圍持續與其事"},{"start":12268.455,"end":12295.731,"text":"侮辱言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性之不友善工作環境至公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要公務人員遭受職場霸凌得依第一項鎖定辦法提起申訴其提起申訴之期限應依下列規定辦理一被申訴人屬非具權勢地位者自職場霸凌行為終了時期欲三年者不予受理二被申訴人屬具"},{"start":12297.652,"end":12318.546,"text":"全市地位者自職場霸凌行為終了時期,逾五年者不予受理。文徐信義等提案第十九條,第一項同先行條文,增列第二項,總統府各院各中央一級及二級機關、直轄市政府及縣市政府等應於某年某月某日前完成各該機關前項之安全及衛生"},{"start":12319.366,"end":12336.92,"text":"防護辦法委員蔡吉昌等提案第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應與保障並使公務人員不受任何職場霸凌行為造成先行之侵害前項各機關對於公務人員執行職務應提供安全及衛生之防護措施以及"},{"start":12339.411,"end":12368.531,"text":"職場霸凌行為防制機制處理程序及其他應遵行事項之準則其有關辦法由考試院會同行政院定之職場霸凌申訴職場霸凌事件申訴調查偵查或審理程序中為申訴告訴告發提起訴訟作證提供協助或其他參與行為之人機關不得為不當之差別待遇違反者準用第21條第一項之規定委員林月琴等提案第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應與保障"},{"start":12369.231,"end":12394.449,"text":"各機關對於公務人員執行職務應提供安全及衛生之防護措施前項安全及衛生之防護措施包括工作不當管理職場霸凌與其他公務人員執行職務應他人言語或行為所致身體或精神不法侵害之防護第一項安全及衛生之防護措施有關預防申訴通報調查處理治療輔導與其他必要處置事項之辦法由考試院會同行政院定之"},{"start":12395.129,"end":12410.985,"text":"委員李昆澤等提案第十九條第一項同性情條文並增列第二項機關首長附有確保業務執行場域友善及避免敵意環境之責任委員黃秀芳等提案第十九條第一項同性情條文並增列第二項機關首長應確保機關"},{"start":12413.487,"end":12433.324,"text":"業務執行常遇友善之責任考試院提案第四條是第十九條之一各機關違反前條鎖定辦法之規定有下列情形之一者及應負責人員應按情節輕重依公務員懲戒法公務人員考記法或其他相關法規予以懲戒或懲處一對於提出安全及衛生防護措施"},{"start":12433.804,"end":12440.528,"text":"事項之建議者或對提出職場霸凌申訴者予以不利對待或不合理處置2."},{"start":12440.528,"end":12445.472,"text":"致其職場霸凌之情形未採取具體有效措施3."},{"start":12445.472,"end":12452.696,"text":"未提供符合規定之必要安全及衛生防護措施前向第一款情形應處負責人員新台幣2萬元以上20萬元以下罰款並得按次處罰"},{"start":12455.478,"end":12467.445,"text":"第一項 第二款及第三款行情經上級機關通知興起改善或無上級機關經保訊會通知興起改善 借其為改善者應主負責人員新台幣3萬元以上30萬元以下罰還"},{"start":12469.312,"end":12494.268,"text":"第一項第三款情形至身重大災害者應處負責人員新台幣三萬以上五萬五十萬元以下罰還至身死亡事故者應處新台幣五十五十萬元以上一百五十萬元以下罰還但如有不可規則之事由或應負責人員對災害之發生或以三進防止義務者不在此限前項情形涉及刑事責任者機關應移送檢查機關"},{"start":12495.809,"end":12521.031,"text":"機關首長應經認定職場霸凌成立者處新台幣一萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還第四項所稱重大災害指發生災害之離災人數在三人以上或發生災害之離災人數在一人以上且輸住院治療者台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十九條之一由下列情形之一者處新台幣三萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還一公務人員違反前條鎖定辦法"},{"start":12522.292,"end":12544.614,"text":"對提出安全及衛生防護措施事項之嫌疑者與不禮義對待或不合理處置二 公務人員違反前條鎖定辦法未提供符合規定之必要安全及衛生防護措施前項第二款情形致發生死亡災害者處三年以下有期徒刑據義貨客或併客新台幣30萬元以下罰金致發生重傷災害者處一年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":12545.194,"end":12568.685,"text":"具役或科或併科新台幣18萬元以下罰金委員寧願請等提案第19條之一各機關應設立下列單位或人員受理第19條第一項安全及衛生事件之申訴或通報一人事處事單位主管或機關長官二以法律為宗旨之財團法人或公益社團法人公務人員執行職務遭受安全及衛生事件侵害或有"},{"start":12569.765,"end":12597.944,"text":"會有遭受侵害之餘的依據前項第一款提出申訴或通報人事處事單位主管機關所長為行為人得項具有管轄權是上級機關或前項第二款為之第一項第二款裁判法人或公益社團法人受理申訴通報應以被害人利益為考量指派律師陪同被害人依據第二項規定為申訴與通報並為第十九條第三項辦法規定之申訴通報調查處理與其他程序"},{"start":12600.025,"end":12619.591,"text":"被害人委任提起附審再申訴或行政訴訟第一項第二款財團法人財團法人或公益社團法人之遴選與委任辦法由考試院會同行政院定之考試院提案第十九條之二前條第二項至第四項及第六項之法環由保訓會裁處之裁處權時效因三年期間經過而消滅"},{"start":12621.84,"end":12642.876,"text":"前條第四項就重大災害或死亡事故因果關係之認定及採取由保訓會延聘學者專家五人至七人組成安全衛生事故審議小組審認之任性別比例不得少於三分之一職場霸凌申訴受理機關應將前條第六項職場霸凌成立與否之決定及調查事證含送保訓會該決定之調查程序與"},{"start":12645.538,"end":12672.67,"text":"人員組成有衛福第19條鎖定辦法之規定者保訓會得依職權要求機關重新調查前條第二項之採取全時效自公務人員就機關因其提出職場霸凌申訴或安全及衛生建議所為不利所為不利對待或不合理處置提起就計之日起算前條第三項之採取全時效自上級機關就機關借其為改善情形通報保訓會之日起算"},{"start":12673.61,"end":12701.379,"text":"前條第四項採除全時效自機關向保訓會通報重大災害或死亡事故之日起算前條第六項採除全時效自職場霸凌申訴受理機關將職場霸凌成立與否自決定及調查實證函報保訓會之日起算如今保訓會要求重新調查因自職場霸凌申訴受理機關重新調查後在函送保訓會之日起算不符保訓會所為第一項採除處分有關其權益之究極"},{"start":12702.239,"end":12719.749,"text":"依訴願法之規定行之委員林業勤等提案第19條之二各機關為處理公務人員執行職務遭受第19條第一項安全及衛生事件侵害或有遭受侵害之餘應組成公務人員執行職務遭受安全及衛生事件侵害防治審議會以下簡稱審議會"},{"start":12722.811,"end":12736.93,"text":"辦理、調查、審議、調解及移送司法機關事項請向審議會致召集人一人由機關構首長或副首長兼任並因聆聘派有關機關高級職員、社會公正人士、民間團體代表、學者專家為委員"},{"start":12737.911,"end":12761.935,"text":"其中社會公正人士民間團體代表選擇專家不得少於總數二分之一委員應有一人為被害人所屬公務人員協會制代表女性代表不得少於總數二分之一單一性別不得少於三分之一第十九條之三公務人員於知悉第十九條第二項事件發生日起而連念提出申訴但自發生之日起欲無年者不得提出"},{"start":12762.595,"end":12781.244,"text":"五 延續信應等提案第二十條除第三具修正為除為維護中大公共利益所必要者外應暫時停止執行其餘同現行條文考試院提案第二十一條除第一項修正為公務人員應機關為提供安全及衛生防護措施或提供自安全"},{"start":12781.724,"end":12798.38,"text":"及衛生防護措施有瑕疵致其生命身心健康受損失得依國家賠償法請求賠償其餘同先行條文委員許新英等提案第21條對照考試院提案主將第一項中的身心修正為身體其餘同考試院提案"},{"start":12799.181,"end":12817.847,"text":"委員蔡琪昌等提案第21條除將第一項修正為機工提供至安全及衛生防護措施有瑕疵違反職場霸凌行為防治機制處理程序及其他應遵行事項致公務人員生命身體或健康受損失依國家賠償法請求賠償其餘同性情條文"},{"start":12819.281,"end":12842.199,"text":"第22條 處將第二項第二句修正為 其設送系因公務人員之故意 重大過失或職場霸凌所致者其餘同現行條文 文學性等提案第24條 公務人員執行職務電資之費用 服務機關應償還資第24條之一 刪除現行條文第一項第二款第三目文字之外 其餘同現行條文"},{"start":12843.14,"end":12871.419,"text":"第八十四條之一保訓會知有服務機關管理措施或有關工作條件處置不當時得依本法主動進行調查其調查程序準用本章規定第八十九條處將第二項第五句修正為保訓會原處分機關或服務機關得依職權或依當事人之申請就原行政處分管理措施或有關工作條件之處置全部或一部停止執行外其餘同性情條文考試運提案第102條"},{"start":12873.34,"end":12889.644,"text":"第一項第二項同先行條文並增列第三項各機關構學校非屬第三條及第一項鎖定人員而有依法令從事於公務者其提起致償霸凌制申訴準用第十九條至第十九條之二及依第十九條規定鎖定辦法等相關規定"},{"start":12892.465,"end":12916.805,"text":"委員徐欣盈等提案第102條除將第一項第四款修正為是各機關依法聘用、派用、聘用、聘任、僱用、留用人員及勞務承攬之工作人員外其與同現行條文委員蔡奇章等提案第102條除將第一項第四款修正為是各機關依法令派用、聘用、聘任、僱用、留用或約僱人員其與同現行條文"},{"start":12917.666,"end":12935.051,"text":"考試院提言第104條本法自公佈日施行本法中華民國110某年某月某日修正之第19條第19條之一第19條之二第21條及第102條施行日期由考試院定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":12937.132,"end":12951.799,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議部分先宣讀討論事項第一案公務人員保障法部分修正動議共識件修正動議一對照考試員提案第十九條處第二項修正為"},{"start":12952.679,"end":12978.405,"text":"形象所稱職場霸凌指本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會與在職務上必要合理範圍持續以威脅、冒犯、歧視、侮辱或孤立言行或其他方式造成敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性之不友善工作環境致公務人員身心健康遭受危害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要"},{"start":12982.258,"end":12993.216,"text":"第三項墨具修正為處應負責人員新台幣3萬元以上150萬元以下罰還第四項前段修正為"},{"start":12995.014,"end":13012.017,"text":"第一項第三款情形自身重大災害者應處應負責人員三年以下有期徒刑拘獄或科或併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金自身死亡事故者處七年以下有期徒刑拘獄或科"},{"start":13012.958,"end":13029.572,"text":"或併科新台幣兩百萬元以下罰金第六項修正為機關首長或主管人員經認定職場霸凌成立者處新台幣五萬元以上一百萬元以下罰款外與未修正"},{"start":13033.652,"end":13053.219,"text":"第104條除增訂第二項為本法中華民國111年5月30日修正之第23條施行日期由考試院定之原第二項已列至第三項並於後段修正為102條條文自公佈後6個月施行隨陣動議二對照考試院提案第19條之一"},{"start":13062.165,"end":13081.2,"text":"除序文手續與各機關違反前條後 增列第一項等制增訂第七項為第一項至第四項 所稱應負責人員細指機關首長於該工作場所代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之任"},{"start":13085.802,"end":13102.248,"text":"原第七項以列為第八項令立法說明修正部分詳如書面資料提案人 吳思瑤 莊瑞雄 沈發慧 陳培宇 孫振東一三"},{"start":13104.349,"end":13120.33,"text":"對照考試院第十九條之二第二項後段增列有關因果關係之審認或採取原則審議程序及組成等事項由保訓會定之增訂第三項保訓會對於各機關安全及衛生防護措施或"},{"start":13121.618,"end":13146.512,"text":"防免職場霸凌行為得實施檢查或通知其上級機關實施檢查其有不合規定者應告之違反法令條款並通知借其改善借其未改善案為私情節輕重依相關規定處理原第三項至第五項一列為第四項第六項令立法說明修正部分詳如書面資料"},{"start":13147.622,"end":13157.728,"text":"提案人審發會伍時堯、莊瑞雄、陳培宇修正動議4對照考試院提案除第三項修正為"},{"start":13161.684,"end":13188.166,"text":"法定機關構非屬第三條及第一項所定人員而有依法令從事於公務者其提起職場霸凌之申訴準用第十九條至第十九條之二及依第十九條規定所定辦法等相關規定但不含醫療機構及公立學校令立法說明修正部分詳如書面資料"},{"start":13189.551,"end":13212.783,"text":"提案人 吳思堯 鍾瑞雄 沈發慧 陳培宇現在宣讀討論事項第二案有關公務人員任用法第36條之一部分修正動議一對照現行條文第36條之一除第一項第一款第二目修正為"},{"start":13214.468,"end":13236.676,"text":"瓜五二未具所需官職等任用資格者一與派用條例廢止之日起九年內的適用原派用條例及其他及其實行細則繼續派用二派用條例廢止滿九年之一日起的分別於派用條例廢止滿九年之日任職"},{"start":13238.295,"end":13261.468,"text":"隸屬之中央三級與所屬機關間或隸屬之直轄市政府所屬一級機關與所屬機關間適用原派用條例及其實行細則繼續派用與未修正提案人 翁曉琳 黃鴻輝 吳宗憲 李燕秀 全讀完畢"},{"start":13266.888,"end":13293.006,"text":"條文已經宣讀完畢我們現在進行討論事項第一案公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案請問各位委員是否要進行大體討論不用那我們就直接進入主條審查那邊緣審查考試院函請審議公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案先進行"},{"start":13298.609,"end":13314.758,"text":"好那我們就進行逐條討論本案是部分修正繼續處理15條那我們現在先處理排序一第一條有委員蔡其昌等18人提案那請問各位委員有意見好來吳委員"},{"start":13322.163,"end":13343.969,"text":"想跟那個主席來確認一下這個程序齁那這個因為蔡其昌委員不到場沒在場我們可以討論他的案子還是您會像之前的案子就是不在場不討論沒有如果不在場齁那之前如果供題的人有有希望做提案說明也可以或是發表意見那供題的人這裡沒有供題的沒有供題的"},{"start":13344.249,"end":13372.848,"text":"那沒關係 那我幫忙說明一下因為這個都沒有政治爭議啦那我只是想問一下因為那個蔡其昌委員所提的是增加了提供合理工作環境的這幾句話那我想就問一下我基本上方向支持只是說在用字上合理工作環境是什麼樣子的定義或者是說友善職場啊所謂合理是什麼這樣的文字你們覺得如何"},{"start":13376.212,"end":13405.083,"text":"合理當然就是一個大家想像中應該是共同的一個通年那有關於這個文字的部分呢我們這個就尊重委員會的這個審查結果所以其他的因為公務人員的這個相關法規裡面有合理工作環境這樣子的用法嗎或只是說比較學習比較少啦因為這種屬於形容詞然後屬於不確定法律概念的通常在法律文書裡面會盡量不出現"},{"start":13406.582,"end":13424.771,"text":"所以如果說蔡委員她沒有來也沒有說沒有堅持的話我是覺得因為定義有點不太清楚這一條是不是就照原條文這我的建議看看行政機關這邊有沒有辦法接受蔡委員的提案還是行政機關認為說應該維持現行條文就請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":13431.828,"end":13443.798,"text":"呃這個加上提供合理工作環境他作為一個宣示性的一個用語呢我們可以接受對好那如果他們接受我我放置入我也沒有意見可以OK那翁委員"},{"start":13445.424,"end":13468.765,"text":"我個人是建議就是公務員員保障法因為它這是本來就有的法那其實沒有必要為修而修啦原來就是為保障公務員員權益本來就包含了工作權等等相關權益所以其實我倒是認為說這個條文就不需要再特別強調就是提供合理工作環境因為這個本來就涵蓋在公務員員的權益的範圍之內"},{"start":13471.683,"end":13486.578,"text":"我再問一下行政機關因為剛剛吳委員也有說其實這個沒有修的必要那是說行政機關因為這樣變得我有點尷尬那我們尊重委員意見因為有兩位委員都有提到就是說那我們就是請"},{"start":13487.406,"end":13515.709,"text":"就是希望用現行草案的條文不要再加上這個提供合理工作環境好我懂了謝謝那請問各位委員行政機關的意見是希望說不以修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意同意好那就維持現行條文好那接下來我們審查排序二第18條那委員徐欣穎等27人提案因為提案人沒有來那請問一下"},{"start":13516.369,"end":13519.574,"text":"行政機關就提案的部分有沒有要補充跟主席報告就是許委員這一條他加上裝備那當然這個"},{"start":13527.54,"end":13553.807,"text":"基本上各機關提供的這個機具設備裡面呢也本來也就會有包含裝備啦所以也建議還是維持我們原草案的條文謝謝好那請問各位委員那行政機關的意見是本條不予修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意同意好那就不予修正維持現行條文那我們現在審查排序三第十九條那"},{"start":13554.887,"end":13577.788,"text":"有考試院提案以及徐欣盈等27人提案 蔡其昌等18人提案李月琴等31人提案李坤喆等29人提案黃秀芳等21人提案黃國昌等3人所提修正動議那先請問在場的提案委員是否要做提案說明或提修正動議的提案說明 黃委員"},{"start":13581.106,"end":13604.996,"text":"謝謝主席在有關於職場霸凌這件事情上面因為這個是牽涉到在目前19條要去處理主要要承軚的規範功能我們基本上對於職場霸凌的這件事情分成兩個部分一個是構成要件一個是法律效果"},{"start":13606.587,"end":13613.723,"text":"那在整個立法的技術上面陳如我今天早上在做提案說明的時候已經表達得非常清楚"},{"start":13614.827,"end":13636.062,"text":"到底公司部門是要一部專法來處理還是拆解勞工的部分到治安法處理公務員的部分放在公務員保障法裡面處理大家有不一樣的立法技術那台灣民眾黨黨團我們雖然是有提出了專法希望公司部門都納進去但是"},{"start":13637.243,"end":13653.092,"text":"為了儘速的提供我們的公務同仁必要的保障要讓整件事情可以往前走我們並不堅持一定要用專法公司部門放上去你要用分立規範的方式我們是可以接受的 這個是第一點"},{"start":13654.173,"end":13668.528,"text":"那第二點重要的事情是雖然是分立的規範我們還是希望在有關於公務人員保障法跟有關於在治安法的部分兩個部分的規範基本上"},{"start":13669.557,"end":13687.678,"text":"我分兩個部分第一個部分構成要件的部分就構成要件的部分我希望盡量盡量沒有區別對待理由的時候就盡量把它一致化我再說一次沒有區別對待理由的時候就把它盡量一致化"},{"start":13688.379,"end":13705.39,"text":"那第二個針對有關於霸凌這個行為因為某個程度上面他必須要透過其他法規範的概念把霸凌的行為他的法律上面的意涵更為具體化因此"},{"start":13706.411,"end":13735.037,"text":"在有關於必須要透過其他具體的行為把霸凌行為的法律概念更具體化的這個規範目標上面對於什麼樣子的行為在一定的要件下面會構成霸凌我們希望在可能的程度範圍內盡量的把他的行為太樣能夠做更清楚的擄獵那導致到後面其他要解釋概括性的條款的時候"},{"start":13735.717,"end":13739.067,"text":"能夠有一個更清楚的指引因此"},{"start":13740.543,"end":13767.61,"text":"在這個規範的目標上面配合我們目前勞動部他們針對職安法裡面所公布的修正草案我們建議就今天我也感謝吳宗憲委員跟羅志強委員有一起連署這樣子的一個修正動議所以我會建議說第一個針對19條第二項的部分"},{"start":13768.49,"end":13793.015,"text":"我們針對考試院的提案提出的修正動議第一個是逾越職務上必要合理範圍盡量不要用正當合理這樣的用詞跟治安法那邊他們所選擇的用詞是一樣要不然的話以後法院在審查的時候頭會很大我們的立法者非常的高深莫測這裡寫正當合理"},{"start":13795.868,"end":13824.86,"text":"就是治安法寫必要合理這裡寫正當合理到底是不是有區別對待的必要但是我們回到事情的本質上面來看是沒有區別對待的必要那相對的我反而會認為說治安法那邊的必要合理比這邊的正當合理在概念上面會更好掌握那第二個針對於考試院所提出來的歧視侮辱言行或其他方式歧視侮辱言行我並沒有"},{"start":13825.851,"end":13840.938,"text":"反對的意見但我希望在歧視侮辱之外其他的行為太陽目前出現在治安法裡面他們的修煉草案當中出現的太陽除了歧視侮辱包括了威脅冒犯"},{"start":13841.838,"end":13857.366,"text":"孤立也能夠一併的把它納入那當然我知道你們說啊這個其實我們這邊只要寫歧視侮辱或其他方式那那個或其他方式一個概括條款就全部把它含掛在裡面但是你如果仔細的想一想會發現說為什麼會去增加"},{"start":13861.775,"end":13883.315,"text":"威脅、冒犯、孤立因為他在概念的外援射程範圍上面跟你們所講的歧視跟侮辱還是有所不同這個是在構成要件上面那對於考試院所提出來的但書說情節重大不以持續發生為必要這個我們也競表同意這個是首先"},{"start":13884.136,"end":13911.037,"text":"就針對構成要件的部分所提出來的那第二個部分呢是針對那個法律效果是下一條所以我就先就第19條所提出來的修正動議就代表其他一同提案的委員說明如上好 謝謝那我們現在進行處理那請問各位委員就第19條的部分有沒有意見要補充"},{"start":13913.288,"end":13931.856,"text":"沒有 好 翁委員因為我們剛剛在討論的時候其實大家有針對第二項理念的持續以歧視侮辱言行或其他方式等等的所造成的不法傷害大家對於持續的這個概念基本上認為它挺抽象的又不確定"},{"start":13932.376,"end":13954.982,"text":"雖然說是你們在第二項後面有個但書但情節重大則不以持續發生為必要那麼如果說今天我們把持續兩個字刪除就是未來其實只要是有歧視侮辱言行的等等的因為實際上進入調查之後還是會看它的情節的態樣來評定到底有沒有構成職場霸凌"},{"start":13956.943,"end":13980.691,"text":"這樣的話不曉得是不是可行然後你們可以把有關於持續反覆性的這樣的一個條件或是一次性的造成重大的冒犯的態樣可以寫在這個立法說明裡面我看你們立法說明裡面也有寫就是在法條文字上面如果說是刪除持續會不會讓大家不會認為說這樣子的一個霸凌"},{"start":13981.653,"end":14010.74,"text":"基本上他處罰的只是持續性的一個霸凌的這個行為好跟委員說明持續呢我們行政機關還是強烈的希望能夠維持因為目前法院的判決啦他在決定他是不是構成職場霸凌都是以持續啦所以這個就像剛剛這個委員有提到就是說這個"},{"start":14011.519,"end":14024.472,"text":"如果我們這邊把它刪除那而且會跟執安法那邊的定義就不一致那可能之後會兩邊會比較麻煩所以我們還是希望委員能夠支持我們在持續這兩個字還是留著那"},{"start":14030.187,"end":14050.544,"text":"剛剛我提的建議你們接不接受可不可以表示一下不好意思我想說那個我們接受那非常謝謝這個黃委員的這個幫我們把它更一致化那因為我們當時在修這個法的時候我們的是比較快的但是他們當時還沒有很確定的文字那非常謝謝委員幫我們看得這麼仔細那這些我們都"},{"start":14054.537,"end":14082.885,"text":"非常感謝我們全部接受那是不是第十九條的部分就依據黃國昌等三人所提的修正動議通過請問各位委員有沒有同意好同意謝謝好那我現在審查排序是增訂第十九條之一有考試院提案台灣民眾黨黨人提案委員李月琴等三十一人提案為黃國昌等三人所提修正動議委員吳思耀等四人所提修正動議"},{"start":14085.89,"end":14091.123,"text":"好 那請問各位委員有意見 那好 吳委員"},{"start":14093.973,"end":14114.027,"text":"謝謝主席請大家可以參閱民進黨團所提的修正動議資料已經發放到大家的手上那第一項的部分就是更明確的把違反前條第一項的那個部分明確化然後我們增訂的是123456應該第七項對不對"},{"start":14118.8,"end":14135.385,"text":"大家可以看這個第二頁的部分主要是讓他更明確性所謂大家都很關心會不會有權勢霸凌就是你的主觀管到底是誰所以說這原本的第19條之一所提的"},{"start":14137.413,"end":14154.707,"text":"應負責人員是什麼應負責人員我就增訂了民進黨團提的是前四項所稱應負責人員細指機關首長或於該工作場所中代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之人"},{"start":14162.253,"end":14190.056,"text":"好讓他定義明確我看今天早上審判會委員在質詢的時候也多次的提出要有效的去防治這個權勢的霸凌對於應負責人員的定義要有一個專門的相次所以我們視擬了這樣的文字希望爭取大家的支持那第一項就是更明確漏掉了第一項我們也修正為各機關違反前條第一項所定辦法我想這個應該是沒有問題請就教於大家"},{"start":14192.416,"end":14214.583,"text":"好 黃委員好 謝謝了 延續剛剛第19條的討論第19條我們在處理的有關於是構成要件的問題邁入了第19條之一 我們接下來就要處理法律效果的問題在法律效果上面 因為公務員他面對有關於職場"},{"start":14216.843,"end":14239.98,"text":"工作安全環境的提供以及職場霸凌的防止他所應該肩負的公法上義務程度絕對不應該低於僱主在勞動場所要提供這樣的環境以及防止職法霸凌的公法上義務我想這樣說應該大家是可以接受的"},{"start":14240.802,"end":14256.995,"text":"在公共體系當中所應該肩負的公法上義務既然不應該低於在職場上面雇主所肩負的義務的話就相對應法律效果的違反就不宜低於"},{"start":14257.876,"end":14284.434,"text":"在治安法裡面法律效果的安排因此在剛剛所講的那個法規範基本上價值跟邏輯的安排上我先請我們的主管機關來看一下我們第19條之一針對你們的第二項所提出來的修正你們訂的是2萬元以上20萬以下的罰款"},{"start":14287.615,"end":14302.059,"text":"針對相同的一個行為的態樣就是人家出來建議出來吹哨還給他不利對待的話在職安法那邊我如果沒有理解錯誤的話應該是3萬以上75萬以下"},{"start":14305.779,"end":14332.251,"text":"那你們是不是可以考慮如果行政機關的公法上義務不應該較低的話違反的法律效果比較低 這個很奇怪這個是我們做的第一點的修正建議那第二點的修正建議的部分就牽涉到刑事責任的部分刑事責任的部分今天在保訓會所提出來的書面資料當中 意思是說"},{"start":14333.571,"end":14356.356,"text":"違反這個公法上面的義務釀成所謂災害的結果的話你們希望回到刑法過失致死罪或者是過失致重傷罪來加以處理你們的書面報告我都有詳細的拜讀但是我先分兩個部分說我們為什麼認為在這裡還是要跟治安法一樣"},{"start":14357.737,"end":14372.09,"text":"訪時安法的條文去放有關於刑事責任的處罰容我說明一下我們首先針對大家比較關心的自人與死這樣的狀況自人與死這樣子的狀況按照我們目前法院實際上面所出現的判決"},{"start":14380.718,"end":14401.997,"text":"因為有相同規範模式的是目前為止是職安法在職安法裡面我們的法院目前所出現的判決我想我就先把具體的判決字號都把它放進去這樣立法院公報會比較清楚未來大家要解釋所計的時候會比較清楚譬如說"},{"start":14403.078,"end":14427.486,"text":"在台北立法院113年度勞安數字第一號的刑事判決當中他非常清楚的說明了什麼他非常清楚的說明的是說在職安法裡面違反職安法的義務釀成所謂死亡的結果他跟刑法276條的過世致死罪他的構成要件是不一樣的"},{"start":14428.917,"end":14438.204,"text":"構成要件是不一樣 那既然構成要件是不一樣的它就沒有所謂法規禁核或是想像禁核的問題"},{"start":14439.581,"end":14467.577,"text":"這個是第一步要先確立的事情好那我們要回到這個法律的規範來講當構成要件不一致的時候哪一個構成要件對於提供對於提供它安全必要的保護的違反的處罰更有效我們就必須要從這個角度去切入思考那比較麻煩的事情是什麼比較麻煩的事情是你如果要用"},{"start":14468.723,"end":14484.419,"text":"刑法276條過失致死的話你必須要什麼你必須要在現場參與指揮同時有管理監督的疏失自發生被害人死亡的災害結果"},{"start":14485.72,"end":14513.551,"text":"才會什麼才會有276條的適用也就是依照我國最高法院89年度台上6396號判決的意旨276的適用是窄的是窄的當276的適用是窄的時候你就會凸顯出來了在治安法在治安法另外去做不同規範構成要件的規定它所存在的特殊意義"},{"start":14514.844,"end":14530.184,"text":"因為他是除了一般通常的法律的注意義務跟保護義務之外在治安法的層級有給僱主更高的義務所以相對的他在構成要件上面比回到普通刑法276條的構成要件"},{"start":14532.387,"end":14559.037,"text":"要更為寬鬆或是更能夠去落實這一個僱主的保護義務它的規範的條文是有存在的必要性那當院知道這件事情的時候恐怕就不是單純的一句說回到刑法276條過世致死就可以處理的因為他們兩個在構成要件的射程範圍上面寬窄是不一的那以慈安法會稍微大一點"},{"start":14560.197,"end":14585.944,"text":"所以再加上如果說我們回到我剛剛所講在制定法律效果的第二個原則我們公務機關所承擔的公法上面的注意義務跟照顧保護義務不應該低於雇主這樣的規範要件上面的話我們還是會建議在治安法那一邊就有關於刑事責任的特別構成要件"},{"start":14586.664,"end":14595.132,"text":"在這一個公務人員保障法裡面必須要把它寫進去這樣才可以落實我剛剛所講的那一個價值的原則"},{"start":14596.352,"end":14620.998,"text":"最後一個我們在跟治安法那邊有做差別待遇的部分請大家看一下治安法那邊自身死亡事故他是處五年以下有期徒刑就跟刑法那邊是一致但是為了要去彰顯我們在公務機關必須要負有更高的公法上面義務相對的違反就應該有更高的法律效果"},{"start":14621.818,"end":14640.171,"text":"我們又希望能夠保留給法官在個案裁量上面的空間所以我們把它定為七年以下的郵寄徒刑那我並沒有去定最低的刑度喔因為你只要不管是五年以下還是七年以下最低的刑度都是從兩個月以上"},{"start":14641.091,"end":14663.208,"text":"開始算 所以大家也不用擔心說這樣子我們的公務的同仁會不會一下子被判得太重不用做這樣擔心但是我覺得在法定型上面去反映出來說我們在公務機關所應該承擔的公法上的義務是比雇主的義務要來得高這件事情是具有重大的意義"},{"start":14664.096,"end":14688.385,"text":"那第三個部分也是我今天早上在跟主委在討論的時候交換過意見你們針對有關於職場罷免科處罰款的對象的機關手帳我們如果按照中央機關組織基準法裡面的規定即使到第四級的話恐怕那個範圍都有一點太窄回應到我們現在在實際上面發生的案子"},{"start":14688.945,"end":14715.934,"text":"那所以我們所提出來的建議是說只要有主管職位的主管人員就把他列入在這個設整範圍之內以上是我們針對19條之一所提出的三項修正動議好 謝謝 那行政機關這邊有沒有意見補充跟委員報告首先是有關於這個吳思堯委員們的提案這個我們完全接受"},{"start":14716.806,"end":14735.66,"text":"也非常謝謝這個吳委員讓我們再次可以有審視讓他更明確化第二部分有關於黃國昌委員的部分呢這個部分呢原則上我們也都是完全接受因為本來以為是說這個草案跟後面的說明"},{"start":14737.253,"end":14759.922,"text":"七年三五年是還有一百五十萬兩百萬好像是對不起來但是剛剛委員有提到就是這個是經過你思考過的讓這個沒有設最低但是直接設了一個比較高的這樣子在審議的過程當中呢可能就不會讓我們大量的優秀公務人員會很害怕然後趕快就"},{"start":14760.799,"end":14768.08,"text":"因為當主管壓力真的很大那這個前面的部分我們都接受那有個部分想懇請委員是不是可以"},{"start":14768.981,"end":14792.26,"text":"我們來把文字稍微再改一下 就是機關首長或一級單位主管因為剛剛委員您在質詢的時候 司長他是屬於一級單位主管那如果一般的政府機關裡面 其實包含縣市政府的股長啦 課長啦 然後科長他們雖然也是主管 可是基本上大概所有的主要涉及到重要的決定"},{"start":14792.76,"end":14821.469,"text":"不會是這些層級的人自己就可以決掉或決定所以如果說黃委員還有在座所有委員可以支持我們把他改成一級單位主管的話也能達到原來的您修正的這個效果以上說明那這樣行政機關這邊可不可以你們現在趕快擬一下然後如果說就綜合吳委員跟黃委員的這個提案然後趕快綜合我們提出來的文字如果大家都覺得OK那其實就"},{"start":14822.629,"end":14848.969,"text":"就沒有問題了還是黃委員剛剛那個主委這樣講我同意有時候科法環我們關就是有權力夠大的真的要被處罰但你剛剛講你要怕一個科長一個股長就這樣可能有的時候可能也太重了所以一級單位主管您提的這樣子的修正建議我們是欣然同意那翁委員"},{"start":14852.242,"end":14877.908,"text":"請教主委因為我們今天在質詢的時候其實您有提到就是說未來所謂的負責人員會依照分層負責表事務機關的分層負責表裡面來定可是如果說按照現在吳斯堯委員他們所提出的版本的話負責人員是指機關首長或於該工作場所中等於說實質上具有指揮監督的那麼其實如果說按照您剛先前的說法其實是不是也可以再把就是說所謂的機關負責人員除了機關首長"},{"start":14880.909,"end":14905.692,"text":"之後還有依照這個什麼分層負責表裡面具有什麼指揮監督權的也是屬於這個範圍裡面還是說您覺得說現在吳思瑤委員所寫的這個部分就已經涵蓋到您之前講的分層負責表裡面的那些幹部跟委員報告目前吳思瑤委員所提的這個版本他已經可以含過我們這個機關裡面"},{"start":14907.489,"end":14929.73,"text":"分層負責明細表裡面會談到的那些所謂的應負責人員因為這樣子的規定它可以涵蓋住而且也很清楚的知道就是說代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮監督執行職務之人那因為分層負責明細表每個機關長得不太一樣而且也會即使同一機關它也會因為這個公務"},{"start":14931.584,"end":14958.057,"text":"跟這個目標的這個會隨著環境修正所以那個分層負責明細表它其實是會需要經常性的去修正以符合學區的所以那個部分不一定在這個裡面那希望對我說在文字上面細指機關首長或依分層負責表或於工作場所中等等代表機關首長您說是多加了一個"},{"start":14959.431,"end":14988.523,"text":"一個是機關首長嘛另外一個就是或者是依照這個機關的分層負責明細表或者是與該工作場所中他可能不是屬於分層負責明細表但是呢仍然是在場所當中他是工作場所當中是具有代表實際的這個這個主管他有指揮監督權的你們可以就提供給你們做思考因為待會如果說還要有一個請你們要在你相關的條文的話可以一定參考"},{"start":14989.253,"end":15007.198,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 那是不是你們這邊趁現在我們這邊可以暫時先保留這一個條我們往下去去審查然後你們現在趕快綜合一下我想這個兩位委員的提案已經幾乎都差不多了"},{"start":15008.424,"end":15034.537,"text":"好那我們就先暫時的這個保留第19之1那我們現在審查第19之2那有司法院有考試院提案還有委員林月琴等31人提案委員審發會等4人所提修正動議好那請問一下在場的提案人是否要做提案發言好那沒有的話"},{"start":15049.697,"end":15053.039,"text":"好謝謝主席不好意思我可以謝謝主席"},{"start":15054.342,"end":15072.294,"text":"民進黨團有增列第二項的後半段也就是所謂的重大災害死亡事故因果關係之認定或裁處我們也是就讓它明確化所謂的我們的文字是這樣有關因果關係之審認與裁處原則審議程序及組成等事項"},{"start":15078.999,"end":15091.705,"text":"由保訓會定之也就是授權保訓會把這個整個事件因為每個事件總是而且它是涉及因果關係的話一定有必要的調查認定然後才會進駐裁處那相關的這些原則作業"},{"start":15095.467,"end":15111.258,"text":"然后审查的程序然后谁来审授权给保宣会来进行这样子补正这一项会更为完整更为明确民进党团提出第三项的增列就是一个更进步的做法"},{"start":15112.179,"end":15141.198,"text":"也說除了發生事情之後然後你們去做事實認定裁處我們更強化要對於職場霸凌的事前的防治那事前的防治就比照職安法所賦予的我們對於一些勞檢安檢這些東西是不是也把這樣的機制可以納入我們公務體系所以民進黨團增列了第三項文字是這樣的保訓會對於各機關安全及衛生防護措施"},{"start":15142.359,"end":15155.374,"text":"或防免职场霸凌行为得实施检查所以赋予一个得就是要实施检查的意思或通知其上级机关实施检查句号"},{"start":15156.363,"end":15170.711,"text":"那後半段是這樣,檢查之後怎麼樣呢?其有不合規定者,應告知違反法令條款,並通知借其改善。借其未改善,按違失情節輕重,皆依相關規定處理。這大概都是適用職安法裡面對於安全檢查、勞檢的意義。"},{"start":15177.054,"end":15204.558,"text":"一般的这个既定的程序所以治安法里面有好的经验运行的经验我们可以纳入我们的保障法里头所以请行政机关可以表达一下你们的立场那也恳请在党委员大家一起来支持事后的裁处要有明确性的让保训会去授权调查的原则程序而事前的防范要透过一个绵密的安全检测"},{"start":15205.158,"end":15233.762,"text":"防治霸凌的這些巡查來落實 謝謝好 請問其他提案委員還有沒有要補充提案說明好 沒有的話 那請問行政機關這邊喔有沒有意見要補充是否可以接受謝謝委員那這個民進黨團的這個版本呢讓我們有兩個較現行的草案更好的部分第一個就是給了我們一個很清楚的"},{"start":15234.226,"end":15258.125,"text":"法規的授權才不會說我們原來地方其實是沒有的也沒法源也是空白授權那這樣子對行政機關來講也不好第二點就是說有關於這個第二個部分這個增加了這個保訓會與對各機關的這個實施檢查的一個法源那我想這個也相當程度的回應了很多基層的公務人員跟外部覺得"},{"start":15258.615,"end":15272.446,"text":"保訓會應該要扮演更積極主動角色的一個進步的做法所以有關於這個提案這個修正動議保訓會全部都接受非常感謝"},{"start":15274.96,"end":15302.21,"text":"好那好補充一下對不起謝謝提醒我剛剛漏掉了因為我們19條之一的第一項有增加那個嗎各機關違反前條第一項所定辦法對不對那現在在第19條之二的1234第四項的後半段有未符第19條第一項所定辦法之規定是不是要加這個"},{"start":15304.039,"end":15315.709,"text":"好報告召委我漏掉了好沒問題就是1234第4項的後半段有衛福第19條第1項OK請確認一下因為這也是行政部門提醒我的謝謝"},{"start":15318.029,"end":15345.885,"text":"那待會就麻煩行政機關這邊也把這一條也一起把文字提出來好那其他如果沒有別的意見我們這條也同時暫時保留那我們接下來審排序六增訂第19條之三由委員林月琴等31人提案請問各位委員有沒有要補充的好那沒有的話請問行政機關就19條之三行政機關有沒有意見"},{"start":15352.07,"end":15353.473,"text":"對 排序六 19條之三19條之三"},{"start":15360.846,"end":15387.88,"text":"就是不予增訂嗎 行政機關的意思不予增訂好 謝謝各位委員是否同意第19條之3不予增訂同意那接下來我們審查排序7第20條有委員徐欣盈等27人提案那請問行政機關有沒有意見要補充不予增訂 建議維持草案版本 謝謝"},{"start":15389.414,"end":15408.236,"text":"好那各位委員是否同意同意好那就第20條就不予徵訂不予修正不好意思那個排序8好第21條有考試院提案還有許新穎等27人提案還有蔡其昌等18人提案"},{"start":15411.249,"end":15431.781,"text":"因為都沒有到場 請問行政機關有沒有意見要補充建議維持原草案的內容 謝謝本條就照考試院提案通過 請問各位委員是否同意"},{"start":15433.131,"end":15452.027,"text":"好同意好那我們現在審查排序9第22條有委員蔡吉昌等18人提案好那因為蔡委員不在場那請問行政機關有沒有有什麼意見建議維持這個草案版本謝謝條文現行條文現行條文"},{"start":15455.37,"end":15484.383,"text":"好 就不予修正的意思嗎 不予修訂好 那第22條不予修訂 請問不予修正 請問各位有沒有不同意 或是否同意好 翁委員我剛剛仔細看了就是蔡啟昌委員這裡所提的提案是說如果未來是因為職場霸凌所射送的是不是也可以申請補助對不對 他的意思是這樣"},{"start":15488.59,"end":15517.089,"text":"是那所以但是那你們你們是反反對嗯他是把他把職霸的這個部分列入說應不予補助是應不予補助但是因為現行本來就不會去補助職霸所以我們建議就是就維持現行條文因為現行條文本來就已經是"},{"start":15518.075,"end":15528.36,"text":"符合了這個蔡委員的這個部分故意因為他這個基本上整個的內容就是跟我們原來的條文是一致的內容是一樣的"},{"start":15529.232,"end":15552.395,"text":"只是他特別有加了一個或職場霸凌那這個部分不用特別去寫他本來就不會包含在因公社總輔助裡面這是我們覺得維持原條文的主要理由謝謝委員提出 謝謝所以先進觀的意思是第二十二條的部分不予修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意"},{"start":15553.968,"end":15559.009,"text":"建議不要修訂因為維持電資費用的必要條件必要還是很重要如果把必要拿掉的話會變得很腐爛"},{"start":15581.647,"end":15595.771,"text":"建議不修訂 謝謝第二四條部分 行政機關的意見為不予修正維持現行條文 請問各位委員是否同意 好 翁委員不好意思 我還是想請教 因為這裡是公務員員執行職務電資的費用那電資的費用就代表他是幫服務機關帶電的費用對不對 對"},{"start":15607.028,"end":15635.2,"text":"那可是你們原來的條文是說帶電的必要費用是才可以請服務機關償還是那這個必要費用變成說有服務機關自己去認定是不是必要可是他明明就是幫公務人員幫機關帶電的不管是不是必要他就是幫機關帶電的不是嗎他這個所謂的我們為什麼這個條文現行條文一路執行下來都有必要兩個字是因為"},{"start":15637.214,"end":15657.535,"text":"雖然委員認為說那個每一個都是他可能對當公務人員來講他認為是都是必要但是呢這個必要他有可能分成說現在是符合可以了或是他用了更高的費用所以我們會堅持就是說蠻強烈請委員支持啦那個必要兩個字還是要留著不然的話呢可能會"},{"start":15658.806,"end":15669.547,"text":"造成這個公帑也許因為當事人他沒有是必要的但他帶電了那這個時候其實就會可能會有腐爛的現象造成"},{"start":15672.187,"end":15692.06,"text":"而且他有一些相關的 主總有一些相關的規定啦那些都是叫做必要所以主委剛剛的意思是說有些情況 譬如說我可能因為假設慶齡需要我買一支筆假設一支圓子筆就可以了 但他買了一支鋼筆"},{"start":15693.737,"end":15696.679,"text":"第二四條的部分行政機關的意思是不予修正然後維持現行條例請問各位委員是否同意"},{"start":15721.121,"end":15732.231,"text":"同意好那24條不予修正維持現行調溫我們現在審查排序11第24條之一有文許信等27人提案那請問行政機關有意見補充"},{"start":15735.557,"end":15753.506,"text":"跟會上報告,這個非常的強烈歉意不修訂,因為請求權消滅時效是必須法律明定的,而且是屬於憲法保留的事項請問各位委員,就24條之一,行政機關的意見是希望不予修正,維持現已條文,是否同意?"},{"start":15754.448,"end":15782.779,"text":"好 那就本條文不予修正 維持現行條文那我們現在審查第12排序12 增訂第84條之一 由委員許馨等27人提案請問行政機關有意見跟會上報告 我們建議不增訂因為這個剛剛吳委員的那個修正動議裡面我們已經就是已經會有這個部分了 謝謝"},{"start":15786.259,"end":15811.132,"text":"在19條之二已經有放了是是是是是一的部分是要主動調查對他的文字就增訂第84條之一行政機關建議不予修正維持限定條不予增訂請問各位委員是否同意"},{"start":15814.09,"end":15842.217,"text":"嗯 翁委員有 是否同意好啦 是永涵幹嘛 因為我剛正在看你說19條第一的 之一的第幾項 他們說正動議19條之二我沒有看到你們是講說哪裡有說他要主動 主動調查 因為因為84條之一的徐欣怡委員的提案 他的意思是說保訓會"},{"start":15844.033,"end":15870.563,"text":"知道有發生有類似霸凌的情況的時候就要依法要主動進行調查在這個修正動議這一張的第二段黑黑的這裡面已經有這個文字了就這一張但是他是得實施檢查是但是就缺了這個所謂的要主動進行調查"},{"start":15875.004,"end":15903.961,"text":"對 如果說按照你們原來持久條之二的一二三第三項保訓會對於各機關安全及防衛措施等等的行為得實施檢查跟委員報告因為我們實施檢查當然基本上就是由保訓會主動所以如果說原來的剛剛大家委員們通過的這個修正動議三十九之二的這部分"},{"start":15904.522,"end":15922.51,"text":"就已經不用特別去強調說主動或者是非主動因為保訓會去實施檢查一定是我們主動所以建議這個維持剛剛已經修正動議三大家各位委員同意通過的部分"},{"start":15929.551,"end":15951.038,"text":"如果說是維持增加84條之一的話會有什麼困難嗎因為你其實你19條之二的地方只是說它好類似像是例行性的你們去檢查但是84條之一它的重點是強調如果說有人檢舉或是通報一個什麼事情那你們這時候知道了這樣子有處置不當的狀況就要依本法要主動進行調查我覺得概念還是不一樣"},{"start":15951.778,"end":15976.517,"text":"跟委員報告齁 文字可能不一樣 可是它的概念跟它實際執行會一樣所以在19-2我們已經 因為它很重要所以已經剛剛委員們通過了 先提到前面去了那如果在這邊84條之一又出現一段跟19-2剛剛通過的那些文字很類似的話那這整個法的這個一致性跟邏輯性就顯得很 比較奇怪一點啦"},{"start":15976.957,"end":16000.138,"text":"好那這樣的話我提個具體建議啦就是你的第三項裡面的構成要件看能不能再加上徐姓委員這裡所提的當知有當這個知悉有這個相關的服務機關管理措施或有關工作條件處置不當的時候然後就得實施檢查好不好就是可以把那個構成那個條件再放進去啊"},{"start":16001.864,"end":16007.331,"text":"就除了一個例行性之外另外就是當你知悉了立刻知悉了這件事情的時候就知有什麼什麼"},{"start":16008.936,"end":16037.136,"text":"我覺得應該是可以啦可以放在一起好謝謝委員那84條之一我想說就跟前面那個19之一之二我們先暫時保留那麻煩行政機關這邊把文字處理好之後那我們就一併處理那我們現在暫時先保留排序12的84條之一那我們現在先審查排序13的第89條有委員徐信義等27人提案請問行政機關有沒有意見補充"},{"start":16039.117,"end":16067.131,"text":"跟各位委員報告我們建議不修訂因為這個如果是依許委員這個依當事人之申請這當事人呢是範圍是非常廣的那這個而且會影響到整個的這個處理當事人也這個範圍太廣了建議請各位委員能夠支持我們原來的這個現行條文 謝謝行政機關的意思是不予修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意"},{"start":16073.929,"end":16102.783,"text":"所以如果說從保障公務人員的角度來講那當事人當然是只處分當事人啊他不可能說是你的當事人的範圍涵蓋太廣會把什麼第三人利害關係的人都是納在當事人的這個概念裡他這條的規定的積極性就在於說除了主管機關他一直權做行政處分之外另外可以當事人申請好我希望你們在實務上面能夠做到只要有人提的時候你們就可以"},{"start":16104.404,"end":16113.931,"text":"沒有啦 我簡單講啦我覺得應該是主委剛剛比較緊張口誤啦依照現在的規定 當事人本來就可以申請嘛然後"},{"start":16115.478,"end":16134.521,"text":"加上當事人你反而要去思考另外一個問題是只有當事人可以申請嗎所以不是太廣是太窄啦不過我聽得懂主委剛剛講什麼啦應該是比較緊張口誤啦謝謝委員這樣是不是我們就維持不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":16135.362,"end":16159.819,"text":"好 各位是否同意好 同意的話 那我們現在審查第102條有考試院提案委員徐信穎等27人提案委員蔡其昌等18人提案委員吳思瑤等4人所提修正動議請問在場提案人是否要說明不用齁 不用 那請行政機關表示意見102條"},{"start":16166.976,"end":16187.774,"text":"大家可以參照我們所發下來的資料我就是在最後一項有更明確化跟治安法之間的適用機關有不同所以把醫療機關跟公立學校來做最後一項增訂文字的排除請大家支持 謝謝"},{"start":16189.599,"end":16202.562,"text":"好 那請問行政機關吳委員的修正動議你們可以接受嗎可以 謝謝那我們就102條的部分還有 對不起我漏掉了對不起吳委員我一樣的問題我剛剛就是說102條的最後一項還有就是倒數"},{"start":16214.065,"end":16239.684,"text":"倒數第五行 第六行 一樣准用第十九條第一項 要加一個第一項剛剛這個要以一併的完整 謝謝主席那這個是請行政機關這邊趕快把那個文字稍微擬一下好 那我們現在審查第104條有考試院提案及委員黃國昌等三人所提修正動議"},{"start":16242.226,"end":16259.118,"text":"那請提案人黃國昌委員那個104條的最後一項我們不要略人之美啦因為那個鍾憲兄有跟我講嘛說考試院他們剛在提的時候那個施行日期的部分漏未規範希望我們這邊"},{"start":16260.499,"end":16282.185,"text":"幫忙處理嘛那中線其實也就幫依照考試院這邊的請求幫忙處理的最後一項那只不過說我們修正動議所提的最後一項跟考試院給我們的條文希望我們提的最後一項有一點不一樣因為考試院本來是希望說施行日期給你們定嘛但我必須要老實講"},{"start":16283.545,"end":16296.037,"text":"那個施行日期給行政機關訂這件事情我作為一個立法委員我真的是怕了嚇壞了因為本來以為好意你們需要準備給你們訂結果呢給你們"},{"start":16300.325,"end":16322.676,"text":"方便就當隨意一變要搞到天荒地老搞到天荒地老都不施行的所以我們這邊就直接壓就是你們六個月夠不夠如果六個月不夠更短可以要改成三個月我們也很樂意但我要請那個保訓會的主委要能夠諒解我們不可能"},{"start":16323.818,"end":16349.803,"text":"真的讓你們訂 我現在押的是六個月六個月你會不會覺得不用這麼多時間我們三個月就可以 押三個月我們也OK 以上說明請問行政機關不好意思 我是說剛剛補充那個就是國常委員公布後六個月內六個月內會變成沒有確定日期六個月內施行"},{"start":16351.158,"end":16378.496,"text":"但是六個月施行的話,是公布後六個月內但是我的意思是,你那個cutting point我權利沒有給行政機關嘛那你如果把人六個月內,那你就搞不清楚就是說那到底什麼時候就是六個月中間這段時間,可能兩個月、三個月一定要施行我先讓主委他們表示意見好了"},{"start":16380.811,"end":16404.659,"text":"黃委員這個版本當然是對保訓會非常的nice就是說公佈後六個月了那也的確這個我們當時寫考試院定日其實我們不是要自己來定日期是因為照過去的版本就把它寫出來完全沒有去想因為我們現在考試院跟保訓會想的就是這個不管是安慰辦法或者是保障法我們在還"},{"start":16406.863,"end":16434.679,"text":"在還沒有通過這個保障法還沒有通過這個貴文會審議之前其實我們已經開始在準備了所以這個六個月當然讓我們可以更加的寬裕那這個六個月我們沒有問題三個月好不好這個可能要問一下秘書長三個月太六個月啦 六個月啦就委員一開始的六個月就是很好的這樣子同仁也不用加班啦好好好 OK就六個月 謝謝"},{"start":16436.786,"end":16454.111,"text":"好 六個月 主席我們六個月嗎好那我們這個也是先暫時保留你們要修那個 他要修文字吧不用嗎這個應該有連動吧對 所以說暫時保留 因為有連動 跟前面有連動"},{"start":16470.593,"end":16487.908,"text":"十九之一跟十九之二還沒有還沒有還在暫時保留中好那十九之一"},{"start":16759.721,"end":16784.856,"text":"好我們請議事人員宣讀宣讀討論四項第一案修正動議五對照考試院提案第四九條之一序文第一項序文各機關違反前條後面加第一項等字"},{"start":16786.274,"end":16804.923,"text":"然後第二項修正為前項第一款進行處應負責人員新台幣3萬元以上75萬元以下罰款的案次處罰第三項後段修正為處"},{"start":16809.299,"end":16837.452,"text":"應負責人員新台幣三萬元以上一百五十萬元以下罰款第四項修正為第一項第三款刑刑致生重大災害者處應負責人員三年以下有期徒刑拘獲科或病科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金致生死亡事故者處七年以下有期徒刑拘獲科或病科新台幣兩百萬元以下罰金"},{"start":16843.939,"end":16866.827,"text":"第七項修正為機關首長或一級單位主管人員經認定職場霸凌成立者處薪台幣一萬元以上一百萬元以下罰款第八項修正為第一項至第四項所稱應負責人員細指機關首長或與該工作場所代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之任"},{"start":16878.273,"end":16885.355,"text":"與未修正提案人黃國昌、吳思瑤、莊瑞雄、陳培宇審發會吳宗憲宣讀完畢"},{"start":16888.446,"end":16913.86,"text":"那我們審查排序是增訂第19條之一那我們經過跟行政機關討論那由行政機關依據剛委員的建議有修正那我們是否第19條之一就依據委員黃國昌等6人所提的修正動議通過請問各位委員是否同意同意齁"},{"start":16927.458,"end":16938.842,"text":"主席各位委員因為19條之一涉及到新增刑事處罰的條款所以我想提供一點意見供大院參考那新增了這個規範類型"},{"start":16941.345,"end":16962.974,"text":"在相同的這個類似的立法例在職安法上第40條跟41條有這個明文的規定所以本條是不是徵定這個刑事責任的處罰這個部分我們尊重主管機關的意見跟大院的決定那如果要尊重因為目前是以黃委員的這個修正動議為藍本"},{"start":16964.855,"end":16987.033,"text":"那關於這個部分,我想有兩點提出來,供大院參酌一下第一個就是說,構成要件的部分那構成要件的部分,我們這一條的第四項它規範的大概就違反第一項第三款情形兩種結果,一個是自身重大災害那第二種是死亡嘛"},{"start":16987.748,"end":17012.708,"text":"那重大災害的部分在第七項做立法定義它指的是兩種情形一種情形是罹災人數在三人以上那第二種是發生災害罹災人數一人以上且需住院治療那關於死亡還有罹災人數三人以上的這兩種類型跟治安法40條41條規範是一模一樣那第三種的這個"},{"start":17018.207,"end":17041.232,"text":"離災人數一人以上且需住院治療者尤其是後段的這一句且需住院治療者我想在文藝解釋上他的可能性會有不明確的疑慮比如說他到底是不是有住院治療是由誰來判定那你應該要住院他沒有去住院因為這個涉及到"},{"start":17043.886,"end":17063.012,"text":"這一條涉及到行者有三年以下的有期徒刑我想在法律明確性的原則下建議大院能夠再審酌另外我也參考到這一個一人以上且需住院治療者這個在"},{"start":17066.133,"end":17095.175,"text":"職安法37條第一項第三款就有這個類型不過剛剛我查閱了一下職安法的這個規定這種類型並沒有處刑事責任他的刑事責任只有死亡跟罹災人數三年以上那這一個部分是不是要列入刑者的這個構成要件我想這個敬請大院能夠再斟酌那另外就是說刑度的部分"},{"start":17096.837,"end":17112.884,"text":"目前我們的這個動議就是刑度是採三年以下跟七年以下那這個立法類型的參佐的是職安法的規定目前職安法的規定是一年以下跟三年以下那如果是勞動部"},{"start":17114.605,"end":17133.285,"text":"公告的這個修正草案他是修成三年以下跟五年以下那我們的目前現在在討論的這個動議是三年以下跟七年以下大概刑度又比勞動部公告的草案來得高那我想"},{"start":17135.393,"end":17149.533,"text":"這兩部法就說這個條文的規定所保護的法益同樣是生命法益只是他在不同的這個法規上出現而已那是不是在刑度上要跟"},{"start":17150.831,"end":17168.65,"text":"老安法這邊做脫鉤處理這個部分我也想提供請大院能夠再斟酌那當然最後怎麼樣的決定我想在政策上或者是立法裁量上這個我們尊重主管機關最終的意見跟大院的決定以上說明黃委員"},{"start":17172.95,"end":17184.327,"text":"那個第二點先直接回應我剛剛一開始在講我們針對有關於90條之一法律效果界定的時候我就已經說明過了雖然保護的都是"},{"start":17185.703,"end":17210.786,"text":"生命法義沒有錯那但是呢在刑法可規則性上面行為人他自己本身所應該負擔的義務的輕重伴隨著他的身份會有不一樣形式上面的評價這個是為什麼我特意在公務人員的部分跟治安法脫鉤那從五年以上到七年以下我剛前面就已經有清楚的說明過了"},{"start":17211.806,"end":17235.176,"text":"那第二個部分針對有關於重大災害的範圍就重大災害的範圍是只發生災害的罹災人數在3人以上沒有錯這個部分是治安法的本來想說希望擴大如果即使在1人以上住院治療也可以涵掛在裡面那不過你剛剛所提出來的建議我覺得有道理所以我同意"},{"start":17236.477,"end":17259.434,"text":"那個三人以上後面就直接就句號了直接跟治安法37條第一項第二款的規定來直接向扣棄然後後面或一人以上住院治療的那個部分就把它給刪除掉那我不曉得說其他剛剛有連署的委員是不是也都同意就把後面或那個全部到最後給刪除掉"},{"start":17260.523,"end":17285.618,"text":"可以嗎?那那個法務部就這個部分有要堅持什麼?因為如果說要堅持,變成說我們今天好多條都要保留然後讓他們自己去跟...剛剛沒有說,我只是說最後還是尊重主管機關跟大院的決定那就這樣嘛,就再做一次修改嘛,文字上面趕快處理啊"},{"start":17290.104,"end":17296.837,"text":"對,這樣子是比較快啊好,那我們現在趕快處理"},{"start":17301.687,"end":17321.506,"text":"代務委員那個藉由這個會議空檔跟大家報告一下那個劉建新秘書長謝謝大家的關心那他有去醫院做了檢查那一切都還無礙啦那也請他強制請他要回去休息那謝謝今天召委讓他提早離開謝謝所有委員對他的通融"},{"start":17322.062,"end":17331.58,"text":"理解然後我們大家都請他好好休息你們要盯好他今天不准再上班好嗎謝謝大家關心是要代表那個他報告給大家謝謝"},{"start":17458.083,"end":17486.218,"text":"好 起議事人員宣讀請說修正動議對照修正動議五第十九條之一第八項修正為第四項所稱重大災害只發生災害之離災人數在三人以上者宣讀完畢好 那請問各位委員"},{"start":17488.294,"end":17517.025,"text":"增訂第十九條之一就按照委員黃國昌等六人所提修正動議修正通過各位是否同意好那就依照修正通過那另外因應第十九條之一條文修正後需配合一併調整的立法說明部分請考試院依據委員修正意見你依據的內容緊述備文函送審查會那以列入審查報告"},{"start":17520.345,"end":17520.727,"text":"他們知道了"},{"start":17767.492,"end":17794.492,"text":"那請議事人員再次宣讀修正動議五再修正第五項"},{"start":17796.072,"end":17814,"text":"就證為機關首長或一級單位主管應認定職場霸凌成立者處新台幣五萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還提案人黃國昌、吳思堯、莊瑞雄、陳培宇、沈發慧、吳宗憲、翁曉琳"},{"start":17815.114,"end":17842.722,"text":"好那這部分我們更正剛剛的宣告那我們是否就第19條之一就依據剛剛所宣讀的修正通過各位委員是否同意同意好那就依據剛剛的修正通過好那19之2可以嗎好請議事人員宣讀19之2"},{"start":17850.253,"end":17870.305,"text":"宣讀修正動議六對照稿書原提案第十九條之二第二項後段增列有關因果關係之審認與處原者審議程序及組成等事項由保訓會定之"},{"start":17872.093,"end":17900.602,"text":"申令第三項保訓會知悉各機關安全及衛生防護措施或防免職長霸凌行為有不當或違法得主動實施檢查或通知其上級機關實施檢查其有不合規定者應告知違反法令條款並通知藉其改善藉其未改善案為失清重依相關規定處理第三項"},{"start":17902.196,"end":17930.595,"text":"後段修正為由衛府第十九條第一項與未修正提案人黃國昌、翁曉琳、吳思瑤、莊瑞雄、沈發慧、吳宗憲、陳北宇修正完畢請問各位委員本條增訂第十九條之二依據委員黃國昌等七人所提修正動議通過請問各位委員是否同意"},{"start":17932.398,"end":17934.363,"text":"同意 好 那就依據修正通過"},{"start":17947.884,"end":17965.196,"text":"我們現在審查排序第12 剛剛暫時保留的增訂第84條之一本條的增訂不予增訂 各位委員是否同意本條就不予增訂現在審查排序14 第102條請議事人員宣讀宣讀修正動議期"},{"start":17975.718,"end":17976.98,"text":"對照考試院提案第102條除第三項"},{"start":17983.277,"end":18011.636,"text":"修正為法定機關構非屬第三條及第一項鎖定人員而有依法令從事與公職務者及提起職場霸凌之申訴準用第十九條至第十九條之二及依第十九條第一項鎖定辦法等相關規定但不含醫療機構及公立學校提案人吳思瑤 陳培宇 翁曉琳 沈發慧 莊瑞雄 選舉完畢"},{"start":18017.723,"end":18032.907,"text":"好第102條部分我們依據委員吳世耀等5人所提修正動議通過請問各位委員是否同意好同意的話就依據修正動議通過那現在審查第104條"},{"start":18040.828,"end":18064.173,"text":"好 那請問104條的部分 我們依據黃國昌等三人所提的修正動議通過 請問各位委員是否同意好 那就依據修正動議通過本案逐條 據審查處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提起院會公決"},{"start":18083.456,"end":18084.317,"text":"本案是否要交由黨團協商?請問各位表示意見"},{"start":18096.394,"end":18121.082,"text":"不用 那不需要 本案不需交由黨團協商議員會討論時候由吳昭紀委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理好那我們接著討論事項第二案我們現在進行討論事項第二案公務人員任用法部分條文修正草案那請問要不要進行大力討論"},{"start":18122.639,"end":18142.065,"text":"不用 好 那請問在場委員我們就直接進入逐條審查現在我們先審查排序一第28條之一有委員翁曉琳等22人提案請問行政機關 請問翁曉琳委員是否要做提案說明"},{"start":18144.686,"end":18166.299,"text":"最後再重申就是說因為在現行的工人員任用法28條裡面雖然就定有育嬰假但是呢這個育嬰假的概念其實對於很多人誤解他不會認為說只是還包含的這個孫兒而且現在我們看到其他一些像月餅等於先進國家已經有把名定育孫假所以在此本席也很希望能夠獲得"},{"start":18167.159,"end":18182.576,"text":"各個委員還有這個徐區部的這邊支持我們就在法律條文裡面就是明定多增加兩個字育孫但是它具有指標性的意義喔那麼可以讓所有的公務人員都知道未來如果說要照顧孫兒的話也可以請這個育孫假以上說明"},{"start":18183.157,"end":18199.688,"text":"好 請問行政機關鳩翁小林委員的提案有沒有辦法接受是 我們那個 全局部報告就是說那個在育嬰的概念裡面我們認為說要不要特別凸顯說另外育孫這件事情在立法技術上似乎可以不必增訂"},{"start":18200.729,"end":18217.019,"text":"那剛剛那個包括我們後面有釋清價我們釋清也不會去說他是是什麼樣等級的清那在事實上我們的公務人員請教公務員留職提供辦法就第二項的法律授權的部分那我們也看也"},{"start":18217.679,"end":18239.69,"text":"那個看了翁曉琳委員的提案我想翁曉琳委員提案裡面有提到說希望我們遇孫的就是祖父母遇孫的部分把這個但書拿掉那這部分我們都競表同意那我們是認為說在立法技術上面我們可以直接把這後面把它就是由我們行政院有考試院會同行政院就把它修掉"},{"start":18240.33,"end":18260.935,"text":"那也達到翁曉琳委員立法的這個提案的這個意旨那當然因為這是屬於立法政策的部分當然我們最後都尊重那個大院審議的結果那我們行政部門就表達以上的意見 以上報告 謝謝所以就 所以行政機關這邊是可以接受翁委員的提案嗎剛行政機關的議事長 來好 沈委員"},{"start":18267.972,"end":18287.76,"text":"行政機關的意思應該是說你們認為在立法基礎上最好是不要把把這個預算價再單獨列出來應該是這樣他不是說同意啦齁那這個部分我個人是是我也是肯定翁小林委員這個提案齁目前台灣這個很多事實上高齡社會很多"},{"start":18289.18,"end":18305.249,"text":"這個孩童都是由祖父母照顧啦但是這樣子的立法技術確實會有點問題因為它原本不是育兒假如果是育兒假,那就是育兒再加育孫、兒孫都加上去那原本是育嬰假它規範的是對於這個嬰兒的養育至於誰可以請育嬰假你們有規則有規則來規定"},{"start":18313.726,"end":18340.841,"text":"父母可以,祖父母現在也可以這個原本就有預孫架在育嬰架裡面那你現在單獨把預孫架列出來第一個在立法體力上變得很奇怪就是好像說例如說刑法說針對直系血清真心屬傷害加一個直系血清真心屬及阿公阿嬤傷害這個就變成立法上面體力變得很奇怪"},{"start":18343.123,"end":18352.876,"text":"第二個他會造成問題就是本來育嬰家這個以嬰兒為對象你要育孫 你要育曾孫都可以但是你現在把這個育孫之後曾孫就不行了"},{"start":18353.905,"end":18373.384,"text":"以後要育曾孫就不行就被排除掉了不行不行不行我會講我翻出不好意思我不是真的我翻出翻出這個安寧安寧緩和醫療條例裡面他這個這個第四項裡面他這就把配成年子女孫子女曾孫子女這個都是分開要分開並列你不能寫一個育孫就包括曾孫"},{"start":18374.105,"end":18396.07,"text":"包括曾曾曾孫都不行了他這個在法律用語裡面都要單獨列出的所以我個人是覺得說這可以這個我們還是從長計議我們在立法技術上面要一個育嬰之後再多一個育孫那這個就文字上也蠻奇怪的說實在我覺得我請教一下翁委員你是有孫女啦"},{"start":18397.549,"end":18419.895,"text":"但是我是為廣大的祖父母還有廣大的父母來爭取權益啦因為我就說這個是一個指標性的意義而且請問一下你們現在在法條上面寫的育嬰價過去有多少的祖父母看到這個育嬰就是過去你們的案例曾經有申請過祖父母申請育嬰價的人比例高嗎"},{"start":18420.675,"end":18421.917,"text":"你簡單講一下啦 嬰兒沒有八卦孫"},{"start":18436.258,"end":18441.581,"text":"有 我們現在有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦"},{"start":18464.392,"end":18492.395,"text":"那立法理由不著橫擊講一下啦你把那個孫放進去真的就會很奇怪我們修改的理由跟修改的不是也是一樣沒有啦 綠營應該要給人家育孫就好像因為你這樣就變成你這樣曾孫沒講到囉會不會好歹要曾孫的部分以後就是可以讓全巡捕這個還是說還是說時間機關可不可以做一個附帶決議的方式處理啊主席我剛剛有出手"},{"start":18494.833,"end":18511.688,"text":"主席主席來來主席我有舉手所以我的意思是說就不要變動就是行政機關他做一個這個論述出來這樣子一個比較折衝我的意思是折衝啦"},{"start":18517.611,"end":18542.247,"text":"我覺得我明白翁委員的利益良善我也知道你說現在這個社會的境況但因為一個好的立法技巧應該真的不是這樣寫嘛因為孫跟英到底是誰包含於誰我相信大家都很清楚但是為了考慮到翁委員的利益良善是不是可以在立法說明裡面說清楚然後或者是後續在很多社會溝通或者是相關部門你們在跟公務人員宣導的時候其實加強宣導"},{"start":18543.208,"end":18547.102,"text":"不斷的Promote這件事情它其實就是可以合理的成立這樣 以上"},{"start":18552.608,"end":18572.734,"text":"我們是擔心愛知是足以害知從立法技術的角度來看我認為這樣的明顯是更明確我們講法律明確性育嬰的嬰的概念對一般人來講會認為只有生小孩的父母親申請育嬰假"},{"start":18573.314,"end":18579.22,"text":"大部分的這個祖父母不會認為說他們可以來申請育嬰假更何況我就說其實在這個條文裡面修了這樣子的育孫假這個是讓未來現在的父母親還會鼓勵他的子女趕快去生小孩那以後他們沒有時間照顧但是還可以申請育孫假"},{"start":18594.376,"end":18610.933,"text":"這個是對於所有的民眾來講我覺得這都是一個利益良善的條文這跟立法技術沒有關係我說如果談到立法技術來講的話那麼這樣子的一個寫法反而更有助於讓更多的民眾知道他就有權利"},{"start":18611.994,"end":18626.599,"text":"可以去申請育孫獎那我請問啦主席我請問那我就問沒關係歐委員我就請問如果我今天是有增孫的狀態我18歲18歲18歲依序往下升那我看到這個法條我會覺得我可以申請嗎"},{"start":18628.889,"end":18637.753,"text":"不是你不能,不是你現在說可以就可以啦上一次,上一次我們在修法,上一次那個東西是要給法律系的學生看的你不能你現在說可以就可以啊我知道可以啦齁但是這樣講啦齁,我們就把它講白話一點,我知道翁維你的意思但是你這個翁氏法學邏輯就比較奇怪你那個孫齁,你這樣弄下去孫他絕對不會包含曾孫啦"},{"start":18654.827,"end":18658.449,"text":"你就這把曾孫給排除掉了 這不行 你那個只要是嬰喔只要是嬰兒都應該要受到這一個法律的利益良善的一個保護嘛你現在孫 你把他加一個孫之後 你曾孫之後好像可以去做一個排除這等於是講說 你弄一個說 我們的保護祖母你把它特定為祖母之後 祖母不會去包 不會去涵蓋到"},{"start":18681.182,"end":18694.491,"text":"那個曾祖父母一樣啊你列進去反而產生反效果不會啦 莊委員你如果說你說我的中文的這個解讀有問題我也才覺得您的對於這個孫的概念太狹隘了"},{"start":18711.062,"end":18713.663,"text":"誰會認為孫和曾孫是一樣的我再問一次 誰會認為孫和曾孫是一樣的"},{"start":18736.192,"end":18754.928,"text":"你不要管法律,我是在與一般人的社會共事我今天為了孫跟我有一個孫孫是理由的嗎?育嬰的範圍更大就包括兒女,包括孫子,包括曾孫育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰育嬰,育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育�"},{"start":18762.875,"end":18763.676,"text":"你們反對你們要反對"},{"start":18779.815,"end":18806.423,"text":"就应该要明定在法律里面这是你们反对你们反对祖父母有权利不要乱提标签我们没有反对绝对就是法律小学生不是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生"},{"start":18820.069,"end":18821.13,"text":"真的這是好事不要亂貼標籤"},{"start":18845.441,"end":18866.627,"text":"簡單的條文你們竟然反對你們竟然反對法律條文怎麼寫條文怎麼寫我們就保留在討論跟說法是一樣的嗎跟泡泡泡泡是一樣的嗎所以我說你們不要講對你們也失誤我現在指責我我要討論但是不要亂貼標籤不要亂貼標籤你們沒有反對"},{"start":18870.428,"end":18896.764,"text":"李燕秀等四人所提的修正動議那請問在場的李燕秀委員或翁小林委員是否要做提案說明好我簡單說明一下我36條之一是針對於全國人力的公共單位人力老化植物久任其實是不利於機關人力的發展跟人力的栽培那我們58年的時候就已經把派用人力的部分已經開始但是104年的時候當時廢止的時候"},{"start":18898.385,"end":18920.126,"text":"只有九年的過渡條款也就是說在今年這個過渡條款其實就要截止我以台北市政府捷運局為例目前有二十位未滿六十歲的佔了百分之六十一點九五在捷運局裡面有四十六個人所以他的人比例非常的高在那個位置但是他也升不上去"},{"start":18921.347,"end":18936.532,"text":"那他要離到他退休年齡至少還有十年所以在這些位置其實新人或有年輕人他就沒有辦法在他位階上慢慢的往上走所以我覺得這個部分對於公務單位人力的老化也好"},{"start":18936.892,"end":18959.094,"text":"包括植物久任對於未來人力的栽培跟發展都不是正面的所以我才提出36條之一的修正那交通部我知道他們也對於有同樣的看法所以他們的也放寬了那我的修正動議也就是配合交通部的修正動議來去做處理希望委員會的委員能夠支持 以上 謝謝好 謝謝喔"},{"start":18963.358,"end":18981.716,"text":"請問行政機關這邊有沒有辦法接受修正動議是 報告委員會李委員所提的修正動議跟我們全序部今天在書面報告上所建議的再修正條文內容是一致的所以我們竟表同意"},{"start":18982.725,"end":18996.158,"text":"好那就那本條的部分我們就依據這個修正就依據委員翁曉琳李彥秀等事人所提的修正通過請問各位是否同意好謝謝"},{"start":18999.261,"end":19028.047,"text":"好 那本案主條均已審查完畢 做以下宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決那本案須交由黨團學商院會討論時由吳釗及委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理好 那本次會議所列事項均已處理完畢到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"162319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5645bbc15f4fcf96e6acd8722aad0b92e7f1b1487921b64df4a31947d3c5364f5145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:38:03 - 10:55:24","影片長度":"00:17:21","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:38:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:55:24+08:00","duration":1041,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.047218750000001,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.606593750000002,"end":76.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.28471875000001,"end":80.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.49096875000001,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.48221875,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.97909375,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.20221875000001,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.24346875,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.45346875,"end":153.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.40346875,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.06159375000001,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.09096875,"end":156.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.60971875,"end":158.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.55471875,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.38159375,"end":169.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.53284375,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.81096875,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.84409375,"end":172.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.17284375,"end":179.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.90159375000002,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.91284375,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.90721875,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.69909375,"end":216.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.79034375,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.02596875,"end":229.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.37909375,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.61409375000002,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.66034375,"end":247.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.02159375000002,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.02096875,"end":258.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.59846875,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.52221875000004,"end":271.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.68471875,"end":286.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.97346875,"end":296.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.70596875,"end":306.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.81846875,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.43846875,"end":314.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.17159375,"end":328.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.07221875000005,"end":337.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.27346875,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.26909375,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.68221875,"end":342.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.74534375,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.01096875,"end":348.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.78659375,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.17409375,"end":372.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.85034375000004,"end":379.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.69721875000005,"end":405.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.11096875000004,"end":407.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.83221875000004,"end":415.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.99971875,"end":417.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.15971875,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.20596875,"end":421.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.33221875000004,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.04034375000003,"end":433.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.73971875,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.37659375000004,"end":435.40596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.88284375,"end":450.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.79596875000004,"end":452.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.73659375000005,"end":460.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.65096875,"end":460.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.93784375,"end":462.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.44409375000004,"end":484.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.57971875000004,"end":484.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.13659375000003,"end":512.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.99284375,"end":521.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.5947187500001,"end":524.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.4509687500001,"end":527.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.93159375,"end":529.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.46284375,"end":541.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.35971875,"end":551.9109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.1472187500001,"end":552.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.51409375,"end":558.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.0659687500001,"end":560.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.97284375,"end":566.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.6765937499999,"end":569.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.8828437500001,"end":570.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.8615937500001,"end":578.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.77596875,"end":590.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.48284375,"end":592.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.6428437500001,"end":600.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.91596875,"end":603.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.3584687499999,"end":611.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.88909375,"end":637.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.0915937500001,"end":655.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.57409375,"end":675.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.3740937500002,"end":666.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.55971875,"end":667.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.53721875,"end":677.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.7140937500001,"end":680.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.7434687500001,"end":686.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.4722187500001,"end":691.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.3828437500001,"end":694.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.9184687500001,"end":721.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.23034375,"end":745.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.6315937500001,"end":763.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.4853437500001,"end":765.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.66221875,"end":768.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.0247187500001,"end":774.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.36971875,"end":776.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.6015937500001,"end":778.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.2803437500002,"end":781.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.74846875,"end":782.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.25034375,"end":786.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.0303437500002,"end":791.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.0928437500002,"end":793.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.38346875,"end":803.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.91784375,"end":811.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.97159375,"end":826.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.1084687500002,"end":838.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":839.49471875,"end":839.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.4228437500001,"end":843.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.91596875,"end":845.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.56971875,"end":855.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.3022187500001,"end":873.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.6328437500001,"end":875.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":875.23596875,"end":875.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":876.5522187500001,"end":877.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.59409375,"end":879.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.48846875,"end":884.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.1753437500001,"end":887.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.0947187500001,"end":894.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.6884687500001,"end":895.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.90784375,"end":898.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.18159375,"end":899.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":900.12659375,"end":904.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":905.0034687500001,"end":905.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.5772187500002,"end":907.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":906.1172187500001,"end":915.5672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":912.1584687500001,"end":912.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":915.9722187500001,"end":921.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.81971875,"end":921.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.7265937500001,"end":922.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":923.2622187500001,"end":928.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.93221875,"end":929.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":929.2022187500002,"end":933.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":934.6528437500001,"end":938.2134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":937.7915937500002,"end":943.8328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":944.4740937500001,"end":945.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":946.1784687500001,"end":955.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":955.56096875,"end":976.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":976.5365937500001,"end":1001.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1000.3134687500001,"end":1021.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1005.2409687500001,"end":1005.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1015.3490937500001,"end":1016.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1022.2509687500001,"end":1039.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1032.5953437500002,"end":1033.0003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1035.88596875,"end":1036.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1037.43846875,"end":1040.6278437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.073,"end":5.454,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 我們請陳清德主委請主委委員長"},{"start":15.906,"end":36.567,"text":"主委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作"},{"start":37.708,"end":56.338,"text":"那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢 轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦 品質啦還有呢 他的安全啦 協調等等啦那還有當然還有一個原則性的"},{"start":57.759,"end":76.024,"text":"有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢"},{"start":77.364,"end":103.436,"text":"很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善"},{"start":104.677,"end":125.472,"text":"但是呢 越改越不安全 這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部 一個是內政部國土署對 他們提出來 內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些"},{"start":131.576,"end":153.271,"text":"改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4"},{"start":159.452,"end":169.1,"text":"交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要"},{"start":170.101,"end":188.148,"text":"國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委"},{"start":189.509,"end":205.71,"text":"我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範"},{"start":206.952,"end":219.779,"text":"而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本"},{"start":221.369,"end":246.11,"text":"交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本那我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引那我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準"},{"start":249.073,"end":268.269,"text":"主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術標準"},{"start":271.892,"end":296.289,"text":"對不對 那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁"},{"start":297.762,"end":313.59,"text":"我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有呢在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有呢我們的自行車還有呢機車"},{"start":315.251,"end":340.433,"text":"同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦 主委"},{"start":344.126,"end":371.324,"text":"地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質"},{"start":373.045,"end":400.042,"text":"還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公"},{"start":401.002,"end":412.093,"text":"我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的"},{"start":416.078,"end":434.234,"text":"建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地置於的地方"},{"start":435.255,"end":450.491,"text":"我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕"},{"start":450.951,"end":478.166,"text":"不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事嘛那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求嘛"},{"start":478.646,"end":492.213,"text":"或是我們怎麼樣的來希望第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改"},{"start":506.561,"end":521.764,"text":"好 到了又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是"},{"start":530.509,"end":552.357,"text":"大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們"},{"start":553.824,"end":569.259,"text":"覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟"},{"start":570.04,"end":592.797,"text":"都內那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼 產業道路走走走 也會變做市區道路啊還有什麼 以前五分的車走路走走走 現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊"},{"start":593.683,"end":616.201,"text":"那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好 我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個"},{"start":619.944,"end":636.613,"text":"行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些"},{"start":638.754,"end":653.725,"text":"改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少"},{"start":656.327,"end":677.043,"text":"那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助"},{"start":678.946,"end":692.612,"text":"所以你先溝通好了因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜"},{"start":693.252,"end":720.795,"text":"是啦 是啦 你也來自宜蘭縣 所以你也知道嘛有些是該有因地制宜的狀況那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢 我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說 這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢 如果我們的公共工程要做得好"},{"start":722.287,"end":745.112,"text":"那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失"},{"start":746.907,"end":774.513,"text":"你去問了一下我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程"},{"start":775.441,"end":792.863,"text":"你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足"},{"start":795.467,"end":811.174,"text":"所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好"},{"start":812.474,"end":838.02,"text":"這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段那"},{"start":840.475,"end":854.229,"text":"媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人"},{"start":856.428,"end":869.856,"text":"我剛剛 我所知道的谷關公務段 那是其中一個單位那也很艱苦的單位啦 因為為什麼 要去國關嘛國關是雷山台八線嘛 那沙町外流也沒人要去 年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢 再加上它的危險性相對的高 風險相對的高所以呢 人撈不住啦大概喔 就算被分發到那裡 待了三年滿可以走的 一定都走人啦"},{"start":885.236,"end":903.971,"text":"那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了"},{"start":906.347,"end":933.265,"text":"基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資"},{"start":934.721,"end":954.899,"text":"配的方面之外我們有什麼其他的誘因所謂質等的部分事實上是對地方政府的質等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高質等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員"},{"start":955.732,"end":975.709,"text":"對啦 我是希望提供這一個點 這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下大概普遍從中央到地方政府只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務"},{"start":976.73,"end":998.778,"text":"人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦"},{"start":1000.339,"end":1021.39,"text":"我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後"},{"start":1022.29,"end":1037.77,"text":"可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時38分）謝謝召委，請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["何委員欣純：主委早、召委早。我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設最重要的一環，尤其在現在，我看到你也曾經在行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候，在臉書上說接著要持續改善道安，對不對？大家要跨部會一起來合作，為什麼今天要特別就這一件事情來詢問主委？是因為公共工程委員會轄管全臺灣各大大小小的公共工程，不管是督導、品質，還有安全及協調等等，當然還有一個原則性管理。我最近在地方基層走動，很多議員在表示，媒體也曾經報導過，現在各縣市在針對易肇事路口進行改善，中央有補助，地方也有自籌款，同時在進行，不過很多人會有一個疑問，會不會越改越不安全？這個媒體是寫，議員指出有24個路口越改越不安全，事故反增逾六成，認為要重新檢討。主委，我們希望改善交通安全，所以我們大力的投注資源、預算要來改善，但是越改越不安全，請問主委是否知道這個問題出在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前改善的項目都是交通部相關的……"],["何委員欣純：一個是交通部，一個是內政部國土署。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，內政部跟交通部提出來的，都應該有經過專業的評估啦！不過有時候有些改善的確不能達到預期的效果，比方說大家都對庇護島都有一些意見，但在易肇事路段或相關設施的改善，大家都很努力，各鄉鎮公所都在進行了，這部分中央也寬列預算，交通部應該有一個四年……"],["何委員欣純：主委，應該這樣講，交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算，我們大力的支持要改善，這個方向是對的，但是國人期待是要越改越好，當然這中間我們國人自己的交通安全、駕駛的習慣、觀念等等也要跟著要改變，但是我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環，我接下來就要告訴主委，我發現到幾個問題，也許不是公共工程委員會的問題，但是我覺得跨部會是不是可以溝通、協調？我們所有的公共工程在設計之初、規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範，而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定，但是現行在政府體制內的道路工程規範起碼就有三個版本，交通部公路局有公路局的版本，內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本，我們現在又有一個統一道路標準，交通部又有一個改版的規劃指引。在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範，不同的道路設計有不同的施工標準及審認標準，主委，這件事你應該也知道啦？"],["陳主任委員金德：的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關。"],["何委員欣純：每一個目的事業主管機關都告訴我，他們都有所謂的專業的人士，不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論，所以訂了這些技術標準。那這個技師還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境，或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口？我覺得公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點，來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為？","我們認為道路要改善，第一個要提升行人安全，還有在道路上的人車，車子還包含汽車、大型車，還有自行車、機車，這些車輛同時在道路行駛的時候，道路的改善、交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求、人民的需求，但是我們現在不是只有設計規範不一樣而已，是連地方政府在做這個計畫送給中央審的時候都有不同的審查標準，主委，標準不一樣該怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：地方政府可能有分都市計畫內的，或者是屬交通部管的，它分屬各直屬的目的機關去申請。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以我現在就要跟主委來談，公共工程委員會針對不同的標準、不同的計畫審查、不同的施工、不同的執行，你們雖然是有督導之責，還有要去管它的品質、相關專業證照的設計、規範、監工等等，因為今天在審技師法，剛剛很多委員都在談技師，那麼這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡？專業人士嘛！學者專家嘛！公共工程委員會有相關技師的人才庫或者是學者專家的人才庫，供中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌、來聘任，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們的名單是屬於採購評選的專家學者，不過剛才委員的建議很好，我們會請交通部和內政部，甚至其他的機關，共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準，有沒有共通性的地方或差異性的地方，我們可以做一個……"],["何委員欣純：或者因地制宜的地方。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，我們會……"],["何委員欣純：我們剛剛看到臺中市的路口改善，我們補助了那麼多經費、投資了那麼多錢在做路口改善，但是讓國人感受不到，而且民眾認為越改越糟糕？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，車禍或者是嚴重的車禍，有時候除了道路之外，跟交通的管理也有關係。"],["何委員欣純：交通管理又是另外一件事，當然地方政府要去負起責任，它的交通管理措施該怎麼做，但是我們現在只能就公共工程委員會裡面，對於硬體設施、土木工程怎麼樣來要求，或是希望怎麼樣來做。第一個，道路計畫審查標準，你知道嗎？我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說，第一次送來的時候，評審委員說可能還要再修改，我又回去修了，第二次送來換了不同的評審委員，第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好，還有什麼、什麼要改，改了之後再送第三次，第三次的評審委員、審查委員又不一樣了，這個計畫因為審查的過程修修改改，每一次要求的都不一樣，可以改6、7次以上，問題出在哪裡？如果是越改越好那很好啊！但是問題是大家不知道有沒有越改越好，因為不同的審查委員看的重點不一樣，所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣。現行對於路口改善或者交通公共工程的這些相關安全改善，我們覺得標準到底是什麼，還有我剛剛提到的，以臺中市來講，臺中市有都市計畫區，原臺中市是全區都是都市計畫區，原臺中縣有非都和都內，不同的道路系統又有既成道路，又有傳統的鄉村道路變成市區道路，鄉村的路叫產業道路，然後走走走也會變成市區道路，還有以前五分車走的路，走到現在已經沒有五分車了，但是現在它叫做市區道路。如果是重大路口的交通安全改善到底要怎麼改，不是在臺北的審查委員看了說要調整什麼就調整什麼、要改什麼就改什麼，我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事。"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，這可能是地方政府要尋求中央政府補助的計畫，現在已經有行人交通安全設施條例，政府採購法也通過了，所以將來，第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢。第二個，根據行人交通安全設施條例，關於易肇事路口或相關道路的一些改善，本來就是地方政府的權責，所以它應該去調查、規劃、設計、施工，中央政府的內政部或交通部會看縣市政府是不是做得很好、改善得很好，必要的時候再補助，將來補助會減少。"],["何委員欣純：政委，我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部、內政部先溝通好，因為現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣，現行的程序是地方政府提出案子之後，要經過交通部和內政部的審查委員審查通過，才會予以補助。"],["陳主任委員金德：交通部和內政部……"],["何委員欣純：所以你要先溝通好，因為你的高度夠，我希望交通安全、這些設施、標誌、標線等等，這些路口改善要做得好、要安全。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以有的要因地制宜。"],["何委員欣純：是啦！因為你來自宜蘭縣，所以你也知道有些該有因地制宜的狀況，有些又是一定要要求的標準，但是我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性，或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性，我覺得這個就是我們政府單位要做的。也許你會說這不是公共工程委員會的事，但是公共工程要做得好，這些細節是不是能夠去盤點、瞭解清楚，能夠跨部會大家來協調看看，這是我提出來給主委、給政委的一個建議。第二個，為什麼會有這些差異性？包括剛剛有很多委員提到現在技師以及土木工程人員人才的流失，你去問一下，我相信公共工程委員會也知道，不管上到中央，下到地方政府，所有公務體系在辦理公共工程的土木技師、土木相關的承辦人員永遠都缺。","我舉一個例子，我每年都要上梨山去關心農民，去看看山上的交通還有水保工程，你知道交通部公路局的谷關工務段永遠在找人，每年都有人要離開，土木相關的公務人員永遠不足。所以我必須要提醒主委，人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進，不管是安全也好、品質也好、永續也好，方方面面，人是最重要的，我相信你在行政院、在總統那邊也都說得上話，我們要如何去解決相關的人員問題？我提供你幾個數字，因為我的時間不夠了，媒體也都曾經講過，全臺灣公務人員近年來離職率增加，尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯，我剛剛講的是谷關工務段，媒體報導是地方政府的相關工程處，在過去每年大概有20個人報到，但是最近這三年，每年報到數只有3人，平均離職率都高達19人。我所知道的谷關工務段是其中一個單位，那也是很辛苦的單位，因為它要進到谷關，管的是梨山台8線，它在山的最尾巴，所以沒有人要去，年輕人也待不住，而且再加上危險性相對地高，風險相對地高，所以人都留不住，就算被分發到那裡待了三年，期滿可以走的都一定走人。我們能夠用什麼樣的方式增加誘因來留住這些技師、土木工程人才？主委，這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，在外面的公司做事，薪水比公務機關高多了。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們要增加其他什麼誘因？"],["陳主任委員金德：基本上，能夠考進公務機關的土木高考大概都會有技師執照，所以他有技師執照在外面也可以受聘，工作的薪水也高。"],["何委員欣純：是，這我們都理解。"],["陳主任委員金德：公務機關不但是普遍低薪，縣市政府、鄉鎮公所的職等又低。"],["何委員欣純：我們要怎麼樣增加誘因？這個誘因除了薪資方面之外，我們有什麼其他的誘因？"],["陳主任委員金德：所以職等的部分，事實上，地方政府有些職等配置應該有機會能夠提升，高職等的員額能夠增加，這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程公務員。"],["何委員欣純：我希望提供這一個點，這是我看到、我的憂心，不是只有我說的谷關工務段，或者是地方政府的新工處等等，你去調查一下，從中央到地方政府，只要是跟土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務人員離職率都普遍的高，流動性也高。所以流動性高的話，對於公共工程的品質，或者是對於公共工程設計的相關處理經驗的傳承，都是問題，我想這也是公共工程委員會的職責，你們要好好去盤點，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們跟考試院已經開過三次的會議了，我們會針對偏鄉，跟大學合作來設置營建管理或土木人才的在地培訓，讓在地的比方說比較東部的，經過在地培訓取得執照之後，可以留在當地服務或在當地的機關做事，至少留得住，不然，有的地方的確高考及格之後連報到都不會去報到，這的確是一個很嚴重的問題，這個我們也知道，我們正在進行檢討中。"],["何委員欣純：再拜託，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席（何委員欣純代）：接下來質詢的是許智傑召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162318","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162318","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5641548e80bc2777f5033769fbc08eef2e91b1487921b64df4a092caf3064e3a5735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:20:24 - 10:31:12","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:20:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:31:12+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.24909375,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.80596875,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.72971875,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.05784375,"end":108.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.97596875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.44034375,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.10721875000002,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.95471875,"end":256.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.52659375,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.51721875000004,"end":290.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.71971875,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.85159375,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.19721875000005,"end":313.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.28971875,"end":316.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.97659375,"end":327.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.64221875000004,"end":329.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.94971875000005,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.82284375,"end":356.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.16534375000003,"end":364.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.37471875,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.02971875000003,"end":388.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.16846875000005,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.18534375,"end":390.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.14659375,"end":401.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.45784375000005,"end":401.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.43659375000004,"end":401.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.52096875,"end":401.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.97659375,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.96159375,"end":419.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.93471875,"end":434.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.74346875000003,"end":441.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.87409375000004,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.97034375000004,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.55909375000005,"end":511.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.0984687499999,"end":521.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.5022187500001,"end":529.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.47596875,"end":528.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.9734687499999,"end":538.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.3815937500001,"end":553.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.9697187500001,"end":554.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.8472187500001,"end":554.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.33659375,"end":556.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.19721875,"end":556.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.2140937500001,"end":561.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.5803437500001,"end":561.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.90096875,"end":573.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.1015937500001,"end":579.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.0290937500001,"end":579.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.38346875,"end":579.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.7209687500001,"end":579.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.8390937500001,"end":581.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.01596875,"end":582.4209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.89346875,"end":590.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.1753437500001,"end":590.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.6728437500001,"end":590.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.77409375,"end":637.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.48409375,"end":641.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.95596875,"end":643.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.79534375,"end":646.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.9809687500001,"end":644.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.9765937500001,"end":645.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.9340937500001,"end":647.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.6765937499999,"end":647.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.69346875,"end":648.0647187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.183,"end":6.779,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請李次長"},{"start":12.726,"end":36.145,"text":"非常早 今天部長沒來所以我的第一題跟時事相關的如果您知道多少就回答多少好了我想近期尤其是接下來可能暑假到了就有很多的海外的不管是韓團也好或者是一些偶像團體也好他們可能就會來台灣辦一些相關的不管是粉絲見面會也好或者是簽唱會等等"},{"start":36.966,"end":61.406,"text":"那我們知道這個韓國的普寶英來台的活動喔那就是主辦方他們片面的就說要來延期那這件事情我不曉得這個文化部這邊知道他們延期的一個原因到底是什麼嗎那因為上次其實在這個泰國的這個偶像他們要來台灣喔但是呢之後就查到就是超級娛樂公司他們是有一個中資的一個背景喔"},{"start":61.986,"end":86.657,"text":"那當然這個所謂的這個見面會當然也就取消了那但是接著下來其實我們也可能會面臨到有一些類似像這樣子的一個偶像的主辦方他們可能也會有所謂的這個中資的一個跨境的資金那我想這個會影響到的就是粉絲的權益還有我們的國安的一些警訊那這個部分不知道文化部這邊掌握有多少"},{"start":89.192,"end":105.229,"text":"好 剛剛謝謝委員的垂詢剛剛提到了幾個這種比較是韓團或韓星他們的見面會為什麼會延期或是取消這件事情應該判斷起來都還是商業上面的考慮是好"},{"start":109.032,"end":127.187,"text":"當然我們後來也去求證了啦就是他們可能是因為內部也許是這個票房不好或者是票賣的不好是他們自己內部的延期的取消啦但是我想要提醒文化部的就是喔就是我們建議喔就是之後如果有類似的像這樣子的海外的偶像團體要來到台灣"},{"start":128.308,"end":150.369,"text":"它是另外一種不同的形式的一個文化上的一個表演尤其是影視文化上的表演它所接觸的可能都會是很多的年輕人但是在這個主辦商的誠信登錄的一個制度其實我們是可以來做這樣子的一個比較外資深報透明的一個機制來掌握就是說它背後的這個資金的就是有沒有中資的一個背景"},{"start":151.109,"end":168.879,"text":"這提醒給文化部好那我們進入今天的這個主題我想今天大家在討論的是我們台灣的世界遺產但是呢看得到的跟看不到的其實看不到的也很重要那我們今天來聚焦一下就我的部分我們來聚焦一下這些看不到的一些遺產我想這個為了銜接國際的一個制度我們是在2014年"},{"start":173.681,"end":194.693,"text":"是看得到的台灣世界遺產的一個不管是點名領選或者是我們的一個除名的一個要點是2014年我們就已經訂定了但是呢我在這個地方要來說的是非遺的部分尤其是我們的潛力名錄的領選一個除名的這個作業的要點跟非遺的一個推動會是直到2022年"},{"start":196.354,"end":211.117,"text":"整整是晚了八年左右但是這個非裔的部分其實也非常重要那尤其今天其實文化部雖然我們聚焦的專案報告是在所謂的這個看得到的這些就是看得到的這些世界遺產的部分"},{"start":211.678,"end":223.388,"text":"但是呢反映在非裔在整體上的我們在政策上可能還是面臨這個可見度以及這個主流化不足的一個挑戰那我想呢這個無形當中的這些非裔的一個資產那特別是我們要再爭取這個國際文化話語權跟提升這個辨識度識別度的部分我們更仰賴所謂的這個科學的研究還有整個制度的一個結合還有政策的一個支持"},{"start":238.92,"end":253.754,"text":"不然其實我們也很擔心飛移的部分會慢慢的被邊緣化那麼尤其是現在我們看得到的包含中國的部分他們其實也是蠢蠢欲動的要往這個飛移的部分尤其是台灣的飛移的部分要來這個驚吞蠶食應該可以這麼說"},{"start":257.714,"end":266.2,"text":"我們向文化部來所知近三年非疑的調研還有保存的維護還有建立國際組織的夥伴的關係這樣子的經費其實是遠遠超過所謂的示疑的經費但是從制度面來講我覺得我們並沒有明確的一個規劃我想問一下文化部這邊"},{"start":279.449,"end":281.132,"text":"如果針對所謂這被遴選的12項的這個非移的部分的潛力的項目我們有沒有一些重點投入的一些項目"},{"start":290.418,"end":314.973,"text":"好,謝謝委員的提問那這邊先跟委員說明一下,對非宜這項工作其實它的起步是一樣在民國98年,好,2009年就開始只是那時候我們並沒有分開來,我們是把看得見的跟看不見的都同在一個推動委員會裡面去執行是一直到了一百一十一、二十一、二十一、三十一、四十一、五十一、六十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、六十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十一、五十"},{"start":315.493,"end":327.187,"text":"事情分開來然後現在也有兩個不同的推動會在處理那現在我們有哪一些我剛剛講的這個12項的這個非移的這個項目我們是有投入在哪一個部分嗎應該講我們這12項都"},{"start":330.984,"end":354.491,"text":"比較是平均的只要有民間單位或是地方縣市政府有提出申請的時候我們都會盡量的寬於補助那只是他並沒有像剛剛講的在市移的部分我們有明確的去討論出來說只推集中力量去推那個阿里山森林鐵路在非移的部分因為每一項委員會看起來就每一下都很重要都捨不得"},{"start":355.291,"end":372.712,"text":"所以有沒有一個比較確定的一些進程我比方說像我們現在畫面當中看到的南島民族的一個論壇六年計畫其實到今年為止可能我們就要結束囉那這個部分已經要結束的話那有沒有可能再把這個部分的不管是轉化到他的戰略的一個格局"},{"start":373.292,"end":393.222,"text":"轉化成所謂的非疑的一個國際論述的一個基礎來強化我們自己在文化上的一個主權跟國際的一個影響力如果像這個計畫今年要結束那接著下來有沒有要繼續延續還有沒有要繼續加強這個部分我們跟原民會來討論好不好所以還要討論因為南島民族論壇本來就是原民會的案子"},{"start":394.209,"end":413.49,"text":"它並不是文化部的那可是這件事情南島民族的確是我們非議裡面一個重要的項目但還記得嗎我們文化部跟外交部日前才強調就是我們部部都是外交部的一個概念而且要重視所謂的這個價值外交跟這個總和外交所以不是我應該是說要跨部會啦好"},{"start":414.471,"end":434.118,"text":"應該是跨部會不是推給我們的原民會就沒事了因為這個文化的部分其實這個範圍是很大的包含外交部文化部原民會還有中研院甚至教育部我們其實都應該要來跨部會來做合作才對啊好那接下來我想問的就是那這個部分如果有更快的一個進程可以多久之後可以提供給我們"},{"start":436.269,"end":456.061,"text":"兩個月會來討論一下怎麼樣進行下一個階段的論壇為什麼我說非移非常的重要今天是因為時間的關係所以我們就挑重點講為什麼說非移非常重要是因為中國文化他們在整合戰略上的其實已經對我們的所謂的本土包含我們這個南島語系的文化的遺跡"},{"start":457.162,"end":479.597,"text":"那麼他們也把它要列入是中國世界文化遺跡的預備名單當中這其實已經是被他們登錄而且我們的這個項目當中已經有兩項是被他成功登錄變成是他們的世界非遺的部分那我們在這個部分我們有做什麼樣的一個防範的措施我們怎麼樣針對他們搶住他國文化資產的部分像之前他們也搶韓國的"},{"start":488.223,"end":507.754,"text":"包含他們講說什麼不管是食鍋拌飯也好 泡菜也好那當然也被韓國他們批評說這個是完全在扭曲歷史但是我們知道這個中國他們是無孔不入啊他現在是連飛移的部分都有可能會入侵都有可能要搶先登陸這個部分我們有沒有因應的對策這個部分大家真的要協助那個尋求國際的"},{"start":513.52,"end":535.346,"text":"這些專家學者或是國際組織的協助因為他這個整個審查的時候他送審我們因為我們沒有那個報考資格所以而且現在中國就一向主張他把我們發生在台灣今天他一次自己就把他以為是我們已經有領選優先推動的一些潛力的名錄了嘛那我們自己本身怎麼樣來防範這個部分我們還要經過跟國際來討論才能保護我們"},{"start":537.586,"end":554.601,"text":"我是說防範中國把台灣的 包括南島或者是去登陸為他的飛役這個部分我們必須要國際的力量可是在國內上來講我們當然要持續的加強力道來輔助要怎麼加強力道 有沒有一些具體的實際的做法"},{"start":556.231,"end":580.972,"text":"我們要加強力道不是嘴巴講啦要加強力道其實要有一些實際的作為啊當然我們知道其實我們如果缺乏跟非裔整合跟國際的一個佈局的一個機制我們的所謂的這些非裔有可能就會被挪用了尤其是被中國挪用欸對啊 這個不是只有靠國外 靠國際我們自己本身怎麼守護啊有沒有一些具體的做法"},{"start":583.002,"end":602.572,"text":"政府能做的角色就是基本上積極的努力的去補助我給你們一個方向給你們一個建議好不好我們是不是可以考慮成立建立南島文化國際協作的一個機制我們可以來加強比方說我們可以跟帛琉我們跟我們的友邦嘛我們跟我們的帛琉跟這個土瓦魯"},{"start":603.092,"end":627.934,"text":"友邦一起來共同推動所謂的南島語系的飛移的申請我們一起來做好嗎那這個部分其實真的要快因為我們都知道其實中國對我們不是只有飛機派來在那邊飛而已啊不是只有天天在我們的這個附近的海域在那邊演習而已啊他現在是蠶食精吞不管是用統戰的工具也好或者是他用任志作戰也好或者是他用"},{"start":628.274,"end":647.063,"text":"菲夷連文化的部分都有可能會被他們拿去做挪用這個部分真的要靠大家一起努力文化部加油好嗎好因為今天時間的關係那如果有更新的一些進程麻煩提供給我們辦公室好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝市長謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時20分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長早。今天部長沒來，我的第一題是跟時事相關，您知道多少就回答多少好了。近期，尤其是接下來暑假到了，就有很多海外的不管是韓團也好，或者是一些偶像團體也好，他們可能會來臺灣辦相關的粉絲見面會或者是簽唱會等等。我們知道韓國朴寶英預計來臺的活動，主辦方片面表示要延期，針對這件事情，文化部是否知道他們延期的原因是什麼？上次泰國的偶像要來臺灣，但是之後就查到超奇娛樂公司有中資的背景，當然這個所謂的見面會也就取消了。但是接著下來，我們也可能會面臨類似像這樣的情況，就是偶像的主辦方可能也會有中資的跨境資金，我想這個會影響到的就是粉絲的權益，還有我們國安的一些警訊，這個部分不知道文化部掌握多少？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的垂詢，剛剛提到幾個韓團或韓星的見面會為什麼會延期或是取消，這件事情判斷起來應該都還是商業上面的考慮啦。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然，我們後來也去求證了，他們可能是因為內部的因素，也許是票房不好、票賣得不好，是他們自己內部決定延期、取消啦。但是我想要提醒文化部的就是，我們建議之後如果有類似像這樣的海外偶像團體要來到臺灣，它是另外一種不同形式的文化上的表演，尤其是影視文化上的表演，所接觸的可能都會是很多的年輕人，對於主辦商誠信登錄的制度，其實我們可以做一個讓外資申報透明的機制予以掌握，也就是說，背後的資金有沒有中資的背景，這個提醒給文化部。","好，我們進入今天的主題，今天大家在討論的是臺灣的世界遺產，這個有看得到的跟看不到的，其實看不到的也很重要，今天我的部分就是我們來聚焦一些看不到的遺產。","為了銜接國際的制度，我們是在2014年對於看得到的世界遺產公布實施了「臺灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點」，但是我在這個地方要說的是非遺的部分，尤其是我們的潛力名錄遴選及除名作業要點跟非遺的推動會直到2022年才發布與成立，整整晚了8年左右，但是非遺的部分其實也非常重要。今天雖然文化部的專案報告是聚焦在所謂看得到的這些世界遺產，但是非遺在整體的政策上，可能還是面臨可見度以及主流化不足的一個挑戰。","我想無形的非遺資產，特別是我們要爭取國際文化話語權跟提升識別度的部分，我們更仰賴所謂的科學研究，還有整個制度的結合及政策的支持，不然其實我們也很擔心非遺的部分會慢慢的被邊緣化。尤其是現在我們看到包含中國其實也是蠢蠢欲動，要往非遺的部分，特別是臺灣的非遺部分，要來鯨吞蠶食，應該可以這麼說。我們向文化部索資近三年非遺調研及保存、維護，還有建立國際組織夥伴關係的相關經費明細，發現其實遠遠超過世遺的經費。但是從制度面來講，我覺得我們並沒有明確的一個規劃。我想問一下文化部，針對這被遴選的12項非遺部分的潛力項目，我們有沒有一些重點投入的項目？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提問，這邊先跟委員說明一下，對非遺這項工作，其實它的起步一樣是在民國98年（2009年）就開始，只是那時候我們並沒有分開來，我們是把看得見的跟看不見的都同在一個推動委員會裡面執行，一直到了112年……"],["郭委員昱晴：但作業要點是到2022年才設立的。"],["李次長靜慧：對，才把這兩個事情分開來，然後現在也有兩個不同的推動會在處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：那現在我們有哪一些？我剛剛講的，這12項非遺的項目，我們有投入在哪一個部分嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：應該這樣講，我們這12項都是比較平均的，只要有民間單位或是地方縣市政府提出申請的時候，我們都會儘量寬予補助，只是它並沒有像剛剛講的，在世遺的部分，我們有明確的討論出說集中力量去推阿里山森林鐵路；在非遺的部分，因為委員們看起來每一項都很重要、都捨不得，只有一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以有沒有一個比較確定的進程？"],["李次長靜慧：沒有。"],["郭委員昱晴：比方說像我們現在畫面當中看到的南島民族論壇6年計畫，其實到今年為止可能就要結束了，這個部分已經要結束的話，有沒有可能再把這個部分的，不管是將它的戰略格局轉化成非遺的一個國際論述基礎，強化我們自己在文化上的主權跟國際的影響力？如果這個計畫今年要結束，接著下來有沒有要繼續延續？還有沒有要繼續加強？"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分我們跟原民會討論，好不好？"],["郭委員昱晴：所以還要討論？"],["李次長靜慧：因為南島民族論壇本來就是原民會的案子，它並不是文化部的，可是這件事情，南島民族的確是我們非遺裡面一個重要的項目。"],["郭委員昱晴：但還記得嗎？我們文化部跟外交部日前才強調，就是我們部部都是外交部的一個概念，而且要重視所謂的價值外交跟總合外交，所以我們應該說要跨部會啦！"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：應該是跨部會，不是推給我們的原民會就沒事了，因為這個文化的部分，其實範圍是很大的，包含外交部、文化部、原民會，還有中研院，甚至教育部，我們其實都應該要跨部會合作才對啊！"],["李次長靜慧：好，我們會努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來我想問的……這個部分如果有更快的進程，多久之後可以提供給我們？"],["李次長靜慧：兩個月好嗎？我們跟原民會討論一下怎麼樣進行下一個階段的論壇。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。為什麼我說非遺非常的重要？今天是因為時間的關係，所以我們就挑重點講，為什麼說非遺非常重要？因為中國文化他們在整合戰略上，其實已經對我們所謂的本土，包含我們南島語系的文化遺跡，也把它列入中國世界文化遺跡的預備名單當中，這其實已經被他們登錄，而且這個項目當中，已經有兩項被他成功登錄，變成他們的世界非遺。我們在這個部分有做什麼樣的防範措施？我們怎麼樣針對他們搶他國文化資產？像之前他們也搶韓國的，那當然引起韓國非常大的反彈，包含他們就講不管是石鍋拌飯也好，泡菜也好，當然也被韓國批評，說這個完全在扭曲歷史，但是我們知道中國無孔不入，現在連非遺的部分都有可能會入侵，都有可能要搶先登錄。這個部分我們有沒有因應的對策？"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分真的要尋求國際的這些專家學者或是國際組織的協助，因為整個審查的時候，他送審，而我們沒有報考資格，而且現在中國一向主張發生在臺灣境內的東西，他自己就把他移為是他自己國內的。"],["郭委員昱晴：不是，我們已經有遴選優先推動的一些潛力名錄了嘛！我們自己本身怎麼樣防範這個部分？我們還要經過跟國際討論，才能保護我們自己本身？"],["李次長靜慧：沒有，我是說防範中國把臺灣的，包括南島或者是登錄為他的非遺，這個部分我們必須要國際的力量，可是在國內來講，我們當然要持續加強力道輔助或者是……"],["郭委員昱晴：要怎麼加強力道？有沒有一些具體的、實際的作法？要加強力道不是嘴巴講，要加強力道其實要有一些實際的作為。當然我們知道，如果缺乏非遺整合跟國際布局的一個機制，我們的這些非遺有可能就會被挪用，尤其是被中國挪用耶！對啊！這個不是只有靠國外、靠國際，我們自己本身怎麼守護，有沒有一些具體的作法？"],["李次長靜慧：政府能做的角色，真的基本上就是積極的、努力的補助或協助……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，給你們一個方向，給你們一個建議，好不好？我們是不是可以考慮成立、建立南島文化國際協作的一個機制，我們可以加強，比方說我們可以跟帛琉，我們跟我們的友邦，我們跟帛琉、吐瓦魯等友邦一起共同推動南島語系的非遺申請，我們一起來做好嗎？這個部分真的要快，因為我們都知道，其實中國對我們不是只有飛機派來在那邊飛而已，不是只有天天在我們附近的海域演習而已，他現在是蠶食鯨吞，不管是用統戰的工具也好，或者是他用認知作戰也好，或者是他用非遺，連文化的部分都有可能被他們拿挪用。這個部分真的要靠大家一起努力，文化部加油好嗎？因為今天時間的關係，如果有更新的一些進程，麻煩提供給我們辦公室，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝、謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162317","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162317","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564b00022929ce8655a33769fbc08eef2e91b1487921b64df4a8cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:06:04 - 13:17:51","影片長度":"00:11:47","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T13:06:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T13:17:51+08:00","duration":707,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.062843750000003,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.324093750000003,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.98971875,"end":22.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.79534375,"end":63.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.752843750000004,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.26159375,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.01784375000001,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.68409375,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.63284375,"end":91.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.07409375,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":108.68909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.35471875,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.09721875000001,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.19409375000001,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.35346875,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.38721875,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.25721875000002,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.47471875000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.94221875000002,"end":164.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.05159375000002,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.94159375,"end":218.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.23721875,"end":222.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.33784375000002,"end":250.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.31659375,"end":253.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.45971875,"end":257.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.96534375,"end":262.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.36534375,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.74909375000004,"end":268.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.64721875000004,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.40159375,"end":275.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.91596875,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.96596875,"end":281.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.47221875,"end":281.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.92784375,"end":289.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.61034375,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.53409375,"end":293.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.07784375,"end":320.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.74909375000004,"end":329.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.81909375000004,"end":337.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.34534375000004,"end":341.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.03659375,"end":345.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.25534375,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.97971875,"end":355.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.27909375,"end":363.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.97409375,"end":365.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.67409375,"end":371.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.27659375,"end":374.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.79971875,"end":373.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.67721875,"end":375.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.46596875,"end":383.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.34221875000003,"end":387.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.03784375000004,"end":392.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.13409375000003,"end":397.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.23034375000003,"end":399.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.93471875,"end":414.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.34159375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.75471875000005,"end":421.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.63159375000004,"end":426.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.01909375,"end":435.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.62096875000003,"end":448.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.64846875,"end":455.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.94284375,"end":459.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.04346875000005,"end":469.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.06721875000005,"end":474.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.11284375,"end":475.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.22659375,"end":484.30971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.03534375000004,"end":486.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.92534375,"end":493.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.33346875,"end":502.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.12534375,"end":504.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.42909375000005,"end":506.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.41596875000005,"end":528.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.93909375000004,"end":507.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.45346875,"end":509.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.64471875,"end":532.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.6059687500001,"end":542.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.2709687500001,"end":558.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.3572187500001,"end":562.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.22159375,"end":564.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.63471875,"end":566.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.72721875,"end":576.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.13909375,"end":577.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.7297187500001,"end":587.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.7465937500001,"end":578.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.1340937500001,"end":582.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.00284375,"end":592.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.9172187500001,"end":599.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.51596875,"end":597.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.92909375,"end":598.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.80659375,"end":607.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.6828437500001,"end":610.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.5134687500001,"end":614.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.9897187500001,"end":615.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.7153437500001,"end":618.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.2040937500001,"end":649.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.3390937500001,"end":621.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.5459687499999,"end":654.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.2534687500001,"end":661.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.02534375,"end":659.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.4297187500001,"end":663.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.07096875,"end":666.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.02846875,"end":665.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.32784375,"end":665.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.94784375,"end":670.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.37784375,"end":673.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.93034375,"end":676.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.0265937500001,"end":680.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.7434687500001,"end":681.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.17346875,"end":690.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.2534687500001,"end":682.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.64471875,"end":699.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.2084687500001,"end":702.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.85784375,"end":703.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.26284375,"end":704.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.6128437500001,"end":705.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.6297187499999,"end":704.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.8659687500001,"end":706.36784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.099,"end":14.824,"text":"主席 麻煩請文化部次長好 有請次長"},{"start":23.043,"end":47.083,"text":"今天我們在講世界遺產其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個我看到像之前那個呂秀蓮的前副總統有說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去的經濟援助外交博士透過協助友邦維持文化遺產然後一方面鞏固邦誼另外一方面也讓台灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作"},{"start":48.524,"end":62.341,"text":"那朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似呼籲啦他說要希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂森療養院的連結然後保障樂森院的完整性其實類似的蠻多的但是其實你有發現"},{"start":63.422,"end":65.985,"text":"市長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼"},{"start":84.785,"end":111.796,"text":"當然那個跑步通常我們練跑要有一個終點線那你達到那個終點線的時候是一個截然完成那在推動世界遺產這件事情來講就是因為國際上的生育的這個標準那個終點線我們沒有辦法劃出來的時候所以其實你們報告也有寫啦因為我們不是聯合國的會員沒辦法申請那所以你在沒有辦法達到那個終點線前"},{"start":113.199,"end":113.932,"text":"你的目標是什麼"},{"start":115.404,"end":142.951,"text":"我們的目標就是希望比如說那個終點縣市假設是一個遠程目標的話那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼近程目標當然我們這個潛力點每一個潛力點它的該有的文本或它該有的符合世界遺產的那種審核標準的這個事情這個我們要先準備好這是第一階段那接下來當然就是因為適宜在所謂的檢核的時候他們除了這些資料它的監測或者是維護的狀況"},{"start":144.932,"end":164.628,"text":"也是他們的重點所以這18個潛力點他必須要一直在一個維護好的狀態下他才有機會如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格我們有機會參加資格考的時候所以你的意思是說反正我們都全部準備好等到有一天我們可以申請就趕快就是給出去機會是留給準備好的人嘛"},{"start":165.208,"end":192.933,"text":"但所以這就不能夠成為一個就是說二十多年來好像感覺大家沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦那我實際上文化部也一直在推動我們都知道譬如說文化部有一個你們有成立一個台灣世界遺產的推動會嘛那這上面是委員的名單有文化部長市長本人也在裡面啦還有國防部外交部農業部內政部還有一些專家學者等等有非常多人大家也是定期開會"},{"start":194.654,"end":222.074,"text":"所以理論上來講這個世界遺產的現在叫潛力點它不管怎麼樣都還是要有日漸有功有一些成果出來可是我們又發現說好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有我這邊舉個例子譬如說我們總共有18個潛力點但其中四項的文本到現在都還沒有完備譬如說烏山頭水庫及江南大鎮"},{"start":223.373,"end":250.751,"text":"他這邊就寫了文本鑽泥進度更新補充說中我不知道要更新多久啦大屯火山群文本的鑽泥進度未完成然後太魯閣國家公園這個文本鑽泥進度也是未完成玉山國家公園也一樣未完成那這四個文本沒有完成的潛力點呢有的主政機關就是單一的比如說像玉山國家公園他就是內政部嘛內政部嘛"},{"start":251.471,"end":279.59,"text":"那內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一啊他自己常常去開那個會然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成這就很奇怪啊那他有個國家公園除了內政部當然還包括地方政府啦所以請問一下這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成這是正常的嗎還是二十多年來二十多年來文本沒有完成這正常嗎"},{"start":282.525,"end":292.789,"text":"市長謝謝委員我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢了沿路大家一直檢討起來的確他們的沒有啦你們外部也一樣啦你們是主政機關嘛我問你這是正常現象嗎"},{"start":294.127,"end":320.136,"text":"我們不認為這是正常的現象我們也努力想要改善推進度所以其實透過這最近這三次的推動會召開的時候就不斷的提醒也拜託內政部可以加速他們這個文本傳禮的一個進度那內政部當然他們有解說是因為他們沒有申請過這個世界遺產的這類的經驗所以他們希望文化部能夠給予新的不想是這樣子因為如果說"},{"start":321.036,"end":340.951,"text":"我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情我覺得大家也沒有 不會有什麼意見但是陳如我剛剛講的這已經二十多年了嘛然後到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有嘛然後你講說 哎呀萬一機會來了我們要準備好就沒有準備好嘛所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛"},{"start":342.316,"end":365.166,"text":"地方政府也會覺得說你這個玩真的嗎連你們內政部你們委員之一的文本都沒有你是玩真的嗎你們自己中央都玩假的你要我配合你幹嘛所以我真的覺得這個很多指標大家檢驗下去會不會認為說文化部有把這個當一回事在看我是希望說下一次如果還有機會"},{"start":366.721,"end":382.879,"text":"你們要報告這個內容的話應該要把大家認為原本要有的就補起來這是第一件事情第二件事情我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情"},{"start":384.52,"end":398.908,"text":"還有在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院然後他被提報為被個人吧提報為歷史建築然後那因為按照文化資產保存法的規定任何人都可以提報"},{"start":399.989,"end":425.312,"text":"然後但是一旦經過提報那主辦的機關呢他在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候為了要保障所有權人的權益就必須要通知所有的所有權人土地的所有權人一起來參與會談結果市長你知道發生什麼事嗎因為他這個林園電影院他是在一個社區型的集合住宅那土地沒有分割所以所有權人高達600多個"},{"start":427.082,"end":448.21,"text":"那現場一堆人到了現場之後最後的結果是這個林園電影院也沒有什麼文資的價值可是問題是這麼上百個人所有土地所有權人在現場參與這個會議就已經怨聲載道第一個他們覺得老民啊他們認為說為什麼你不能主辦機關先做第一階段的篩選嘛"},{"start":449.967,"end":473.908,"text":"對 你先確定有或沒有 假設你認為有你再來通知我們嘛在沒有的情況之下把他們叫來就第一個老民第二個其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築他其實是反對的嘛因為只要一旦他的鄰近的建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關的單位被列為文化資產"},{"start":475.151,"end":501.44,"text":"他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響所以他們都是反彈的所以這個事情等於是老民而且沒有效益那為什麼按照規定主辦單位要這個應該是新北市文化局主辦單位因為我們法律就是這樣規定的我們法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定然後私刑細則也是這樣規定所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":504.089,"end":532.108,"text":"這個市長這應該是您主管的業務啊是我們做一個溝通跟討論剛剛講的兩個意見一個是說你們先審了之後可是第二個意見馬上表示其實有很多的居民是反對他們的這個所有的裡面被列為歷史建築的所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話他們就沒有機會去表達他們反對的意見也不見得喔你可以專家學者先做初步的認定嘛"},{"start":532.768,"end":542.277,"text":"假設沒有文資價值就排除了嘛那有文資價值再去邀請所有權人來做開會嘛你就可以不用老民了嘛"},{"start":543.339,"end":564.816,"text":"對 所以這 我剛講這個沒有矛盾跟衝突嘛這個是 這主要是因為法規寫死在這裡所以 主辦機關必須這樣子做基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改或者是文化部如果認為需要修法那就可以解決這個問題就是說 你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定覺得 有 有潛力"},{"start":566.798,"end":592.114,"text":"有必要召開所有全人的會議的時候再召開沒有的話就不要召開就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨謝謝委員的提醒我想這真的是一個蠻特殊的案例啦所有全人達到600多位那這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上你今天也不是說600多位問題啊你今天就算是只有5位10位他也是一樣我覺得老民啊"},{"start":593.587,"end":617.853,"text":"因為這是關係到他們的權益的問題所以我們還是希望能夠由他們來表達意見沒錯 所以我的意思是說你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候你找他來嘛 表達意見嘛那如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響 譬如說專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值那對他就沒有影響嘛 就不用找他來嘛所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關嘛"},{"start":621.38,"end":647.917,"text":"因為文資法必須要我們必須滿足民眾的權益然後可是也有文資團體之所以有人會提報一定認為他有文資上面的一個價值所以這個文資價值如何透過一個公眾的參與討論過程去確認那如果只有專家學者我們比較擔心是專家學者一旦確認說他有文資價值的時候我坦白講在目前的法規裡面民眾要反對就來不及了他就會被限制"},{"start":650.619,"end":675.329,"text":"文資價值就是潛在或什麼的或你可以訂標準嘛我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況一定有可以排除是你願不願意做的問題你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受嘛不能說什麼事情都以這個官僚的想法為主嘛所以你有考慮說要修法或修改施行細則嗎"},{"start":676.309,"end":702.183,"text":"文資法修法我們是一直在進行當中所以這一條目前我們本來是沒有打算要修啦那委員這個提醒我們再來跟各方討論一下看有沒有什麼樣我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了因為這個主管機關邀請專家學者場刊必須通知所有權人這是規定在施行細則裡面所以應該是修改施行細則就可以了"},{"start":702.938,"end":704.3,"text":"我們研究一下 我們來研議檢討好嗎好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時6分）主席好，麻煩請文化部次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。今天我們在講世界遺產，其實不分黨派的人都還蠻支持這個，我看到像之前呂秀蓮前副總統，他說希望這個東西可以構思用文化援助取代過去經濟援助的外交模式，透過協助友邦維持文化遺產，一方面鞏固邦誼，另外一方面也讓臺灣可以參與世界文化遺產維護工作。朱立倫在當桃園縣長的時候也有類似的呼籲，他說希望能夠推動捷運路線與樂生療養院的連結，保障樂生院的完整性。其實類似的蠻多的，但是你有沒有發現這都已經是2004年，或者是朱立倫當縣長的時候，大概都二十年前左右，代表這個東西已經推展很久了。我不曉得次長現在你們在推展這個業務的時候，你覺得你遇到最大的困難是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：比如跑步，通常我們練跑要有一個終點線，你達到終點線的時候，這是一個階段的完成。在推動世界遺產這件事情來講，就是因為國際上申遺的標準，那個終點線我們沒有辦法畫出來的時候，對跑道上的……"],["葉委員元之：其實你們報告有寫，因為我們不是聯合國的會員，沒辦法申請。你在沒有辦法達到終點線前，你的目標是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：我們的目標就是希望能夠把所有的……"],["葉委員元之：終點線假設是一個遠程目標的話，那你的近程目標跟中程目標是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：近程當然我們每一個潛力點它該有的文本，或者它該有的符合世界遺產審核標準的這個事情，我們要先準備好，這是第一階段。接下來當然就是因為世遺在所謂檢核的時候，除了這些資料，它的監測或者是維護的狀況也是他們的重點，所以這18個潛力點必須一直要在被維護好的狀態下，它才有機會。如果萬一有一天我們可以申請資格，我們有機會參加資格考的時候，它才能夠有包裝……"],["葉委員元之：所以你的意思是反正我們都全部準備好，等到有一天我們可以申請，趕快就是給出去，機會是留給準備好的人嘛！所以這就不能夠成為二十多年來大家感覺沒有什麼進展的一個理由啦！","實際上文化部也一直在推動，我們都知道，譬如文化部有成立一個臺灣世界遺產推動會嘛！這上面是委員的名單，有文化部長，次長本人也在裡面，還有國防部、外交部、農業部、內政部，還有一些專家學者等等，有非常多人，大家也是定期開會，所以理論上來講，世界遺產潛力點不管怎麼樣都還是要日漸有功啦！有一些成果出來，可是我們又發現好像有一些該有的東西到現在都一直沒有，我這邊舉一個例子，譬如我們總共18個潛力點，但其中4項的文本到現在都還沒有完備，譬如烏山頭水庫及嘉南大圳，這邊就寫了文本撰擬進度是更新補充中，我不知道要更新多久啦！大屯火山群的文本撰擬進度未完成，太魯閣國家公園的文本撰擬進度也是未完成，玉山國家公園也一樣未完成。這4個文本沒有完成的潛力點，有的主政機關是單一的，譬如玉山國家公園就是內政部，內政部國家公園署也是剛剛那個世界遺產的委員之一，他自己常常去開那個會，然後自己管的國家公園文本都沒有完成，這就很奇怪啊！太魯閣國家公園除了內政部，當然還包括地方政府。請問一下，這個文本到現在都沒有辦法完成，這是正常的嗎？二十多年來文本沒有完成，這正常嗎？次長。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，我想今天內政部的耳朵應該很癢，沿路大家檢討起來，的確他們的……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！文化部也一樣，你們是主政機關嘛！我問你這是正常現象嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我們不認為這是正常的現象，我們也努力想要改善、推進度，所以其實透過最近這三次推動會召開的時候就不斷地提醒，然後也拜託內政部可以加速他們文本撰擬的進度。內政部當然有解釋說，因為他們沒有申請過世界遺產的這類經驗，所以希望文化部能夠給予協助。這部分……"],["葉委員元之：次長，是這樣子啦！如果我們政府是剛開始推動這件事情，我覺得大家也不會有什麼意見，但是誠如我剛剛講的，這已經二十多年了，到現在連一個最基本的文本都沒有，然後你說萬一機會來了，我們要準備好，就沒有準備好嘛！所以就會讓大家覺得這個裡面有很多空的東西在這邊嘛！對不對？地方政府也會覺得你是玩真的嗎？連內政部是委員之一，文本都沒有，你是玩真的嗎？你們自己中央都玩假的，你要我配合你幹嘛，對不對？我真的覺得很多指標大家檢驗下去，不會認為文化部有把這個當一回事在看啦！我是希望下一次如果還有機會你們要報告這個內容的話，應該要把大家認為原本要有的補起來，這是第一件事情。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員的指教。"],["葉委員元之：第二件事情，我想問一下有關於文化資產保存的相關規定，因為在我們板橋有發生一件事情，在林家花園附近有一個林園電影院，它被個人提報為歷史建築，按照文化資產保存法的規定，任何人都可以提報，但是一旦經過提報，主辦的機關在邀請專家學者現場勘查的時候，為了要保障所有權人的權益，必須要通知所有的土地所有權人一起來參與會勘，結果次長知道發生什麼事嗎？因為林園電影院是在一個社區型的集合住宅內，土地沒有分割，所以所有權人高達六百多個，一堆人到了現場，最後的結果是這個林園電影院沒有什麼文資的價值，可是問題是，這上百個土地所有權人來現場參與這個會議已經怨聲載道，第一個是他們覺得擾民，他們認為為什麼主辦機關不能先做第一階段的篩選，對不對？你先確定有或沒有，假設你認為有，你再來通知我們嘛！在沒有的情況之下把我們叫來，就是擾民嘛！第二個，其實民眾對於他們的建築物裡面有幾層樓被列為文化歷史建築，他其實是反對的，因為一旦他的鄰近建物或者是他們建築物裡面有相關單位被列為文化資產，他在所有權的轉移或各方面都會受到影響，所以他們都是反彈的，這個事情等於是擾民，而且沒有效益。按照規定主辦單位要通知所有權人，這個的主辦單位應該是新北市文化局，因為我們法律就是這樣規定的，我們的法律文化資產保存法就是這樣規定，施行細則也是這樣規定，所以依法行政就會造成這樣的結果。次長，這應該是你主管的業務吧？"],["李次長靜慧：是，我們會溝通跟討論，您剛剛講的兩個意見，一個是你們先審了之後，可是第二個意見馬上表示，其實有很多居民反對他們的建築物被列為歷史建築，所以如果沒有在這個會議中邀集他們來的話，他們就沒有機會表達他們的反對意見。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，也不見得喔！可以由專家學者先做初步的認定，假設沒有文資價值就排除了，有文資價值，再去邀請所有權人來開會，你就不用擾民了嘛！所以我剛剛講的那個沒有矛盾跟衝突，最主要是因為法規寫死在這裡，所以主辦機關必須這樣子做。基本上我覺得透過施行細則的修改，或者是文化部如果認為需要修法，那就可以解決這個問題。你可以讓地方政府文化局先做初步認定，覺得有有潛力，有必要召開所有權人會議的時候再召開，沒有的話就不要召開，就不會出現我剛剛講的那個狀況，因為這個在我們當地造成很大的民怨。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提醒，我想這真的是一個滿特殊的案例，所有權人達到六百多位，這個狀況怎麼樣靠法令上面……"],["葉委員元之：今天也不是六百多位的問題，今天就算是只有5位、10位，也是一樣會覺得擾民啊！"],["李次長靜慧：因為這是關係到他們的權益問題，所以我們還是希望由他們來表達意見。"],["葉委員元之：是，沒有錯，所以我的意思是你要等到這個事情確實對他有影響的時候，你再找他來表達意見嘛！如果這個事情對他根本沒有影響，譬如專家學者初步鑑定就是沒有文資價值，對他就沒有影響，就不用找他來嘛！所以主辦機關可以做第一層的把關，懂我的意思嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：應該是講因為文資法必須要……我們必須滿足民眾的權益，可是也有文資團體。之所以有人會提報，一定是認為它有文資上面的價值，這個文資價值如何透過公眾的參與討論過程去確認，如果只有專家學者，我們比較擔心的是，專家學者一旦確認它有文資價值的時候，我坦白講，在目前的法規裡面，民眾要反對就來不及，他就被限制住了。"],["葉委員元之：不是啊！你也可以說這個有文資價值，就是潛在或什麼的，或是你可以定標準，我覺得一定有方法可以排除我剛剛講的狀況。"],["李次長靜慧：這部分我們來研究看看好不好？我們來研究一下。"],["葉委員元之：一定可以排除，是你願不願意做的問題。"],["李次長靜慧：我們來研究一下如何不要擾民。"],["葉委員元之：你要兼顧文化保存跟在地民眾的感受，不能什麼事情都以官僚的想法為主。"],["李次長靜慧：不會、不會，委員的提醒我們會來考慮一下怎麼處理。"],["葉委員元之：你有考慮要修法或修改施行細則嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：文資法的修法我們一直在進行當中。"],["葉委員元之：我要講的是這一條，第十四條之一啦！"],["李次長靜慧：這一條我們本來沒有打算要修，委員的這個提醒，我們再來跟各方討論一下，看有什麼樣的……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得應該是修改施行細則就可以了，因為主管機關邀請專家學者場勘必須通知所有權人，這是規定在施行細則裡面，所以應該是修改施行細則就可以，你們研究一下。"],["李次長靜慧：我們來研議檢討，好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，次長請回。","我們今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有萬美玲委員、謝龍介委員、林倩綺委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復之部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56420c6be6f5447b06033769fbc08eef2e91b1487921b64df4a9eca1244ea1315045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:01:22 - 13:05:40","影片長度":"00:04:18","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T13:01:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T13:05:40+08:00","duration":258,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.34659375,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.814718750000001,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.15534375,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":57.203468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.47346875,"end":70.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.87221875,"end":72.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.57221875,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.14159375,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.31846875000001,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.32221875,"end":91.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.76409375,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.22346875000001,"end":254.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.88971875000001,"end":258.30284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.356,"end":7.857,"text":"你好 請次長好 有請次長委員好次長好 次長我國早自2002年就已經在推動這個世界潛力點跟非物質文化遺產潛力點的認列那推動的過程其實是經過了數次的政黨輪替那有一時候會有政策中斷資源分散或者是整體推動缺乏這個穩定性跟延續性"},{"start":35.223,"end":55.193,"text":"所以我在上個會期我已經提了文資保存法增訂第十一條之一第十一條之一的修正案是要求政府應該持續推動我國的世界遺產潛力點還有非物質文化遺產的潛力分路分別論列在聯合國的這個教文組織的世界遺產或者是非物質文化遺產的名單"},{"start":57.614,"end":74.623,"text":"那目前文化部應該已經盤點我剛剛看很多委員有在問類似的問題18處的潛力點跟12項無形文化潛力點的保存現狀了嘛那也有擬定這個優先順序跟這個中央局推動的行程了嗎優先順序的部分的話"},{"start":75.239,"end":90.802,"text":"在有形文化資產就是世界遺產部分我們有一個現在主要離推是阿里山那至於無形這部分因為委員們的討論是目前還暫時沒有要排序或者是只集中資源"},{"start":91.283,"end":107.114,"text":"那我比較私心因為我們的選區來自嘉義那阿里山它不僅僅是我們嘉義的榮耀它真的其實是全國的一個重要的資產那阿里山的林業鐵道我要特別講這件事情的原因是因為它不僅僅可以"},{"start":107.754,"end":134.276,"text":"被我國列入世界遺產的前立點的重要場域它是可以跨國的因為它是橫跨術史橫跨日本的時代到我們現在的民主化的時代它的重要的文化遺產它不僅是我國可以努力去推動它其實是可以跟日本一起努力去推動這就可以把我們現在的外交困境來去打出一個新局就開拓一個新的可能性所以"},{"start":135.577,"end":154.574,"text":"我必須要請這個文化部也好或者是其他部會特別是可以跟外交部一起來聯繫來討論因為他見證的是台灣的山林的開發的這個歷史那他見證的是包含我們的這個原住民族鐵道文化還有生態的記憶在所以"},{"start":155.174,"end":174.134,"text":"我強烈要求可以跟幾個部會合作第一個就剛剛提到的外交部來去共同來去申請那跟日本的部分其實在上個月我也跟我們蔡議員那共同到日本去把這個相關的概念跟日本"},{"start":174.694,"end":200.75,"text":"國的這個國會議員有做深入的討論那我現在除了外交部之外我希望有一個比較大的一個平台跟教育部來合作把這一些阿里山生鐵的這些潛入點的內容也系統性的去融入我們這些高中啊 技高啊或者是大學的地方文化教材那鄉土文化教材或者是公民的素養課程因為只有融入教育的話那可以讓我們所有的民眾有一個榮譽感"},{"start":201.59,"end":217.599,"text":"那我們去推動的話就不再只是一個政府的在推動而已是來自民間由下而上由上而下共同來去努力的推動那甚至我剛剛提到外交部之外我還是會要求甚至文化部可以跟僑委會討論因為我們現在要申請的是世界的文化的遺產"},{"start":219.019,"end":247.237,"text":"我們包含我們的華語文的課程教會的合作的這些課程都可以把這樣子的文化潛力的這些點納入我們的課程也就是說未來不僅僅是我們國民本身對自己國家的這些重要的遺產是可以去推廣的來台學習華文的或者是在世界各地由我們由台灣的這個華文教育的都能夠同時有這樣子的概念知道說他們的學習語言的時候同時理解我們的文化"},{"start":247.717,"end":257.907,"text":"那當他們有機會來到台灣來去觀光的時候他們就知道這是理解而非走過好 謝謝好 謝謝委員我們會依照建議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時1分）你好，請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長好。次長，我國早自2002年就已經在推動世界潛力點跟非物質文化遺產潛力點的認列，推動過程其實是經過了數次政黨輪替，有些時候會有政策中斷、資源分散，或者是整體推動缺乏穩定性及延續性。所以在上個會期我已經提了文資保存法增訂第十一條之一，第十一條之一的修正案是要求政府應該持續推動我國世界遺產潛力點、非物質文化遺產潛力名錄分別認列在聯合國教科文組織的世界遺產或者是非物質文化遺產名單。目前文化部應該已經盤點，我剛剛看很多委員有在問類似的問題，18處的潛力點跟12項無形文化潛力點的保存現狀，也有擬定優先順序及中長期推動期程了嗎？優先順序的部分。"],["李次長靜慧：在有形文化資產，就是世界遺產部分，我們現在主要的一推是阿里山。至於無形這部分，委員們的討論是目前還暫時沒有要排序或者是集中資源。"],["陳委員冠廷：那我比較私心，因為我們的選區來自嘉義，阿里山不僅僅是我們嘉義的榮耀，它真的是全國的一個重要資產。阿里山的林業鐵道，我要特別講這件事情的原因，是因為它不僅僅可以被我國列入世界遺產潛力點的重要場域，它是可以跨國的，因為它是橫跨日本時代到我們現在民主化時代，它的重要文化遺產不僅僅是我國可以努力去推動，它其實可以跟日本一起努力去推動，這就可以把我們現在的外交困境打出一個新局，就是開拓一個新的可能性。","所以我必須要請文化部也好，或者是其他部會，特別是可以跟外交部一起聯繫討論，因為它見證的是臺灣的山林開發歷史，它見證的是包含原住民族、鐵道文化，還有生態的記憶在，所以我強烈要求可以跟幾個部會合作，第一個，剛剛提到的外交部共同去申請，跟日本的部分，其實在上個月我也跟蔡易餘委員共同到日本，把相關的概念跟日本國的國會議員做深入的討論。現在除了外交部之外，我希望有一個比較大的平臺，跟教育部合作把阿里山森鐵這些潛力點的內容也系統性地融入高中、技高或者是大學的地方文化教材、鄉土文化教材，或者是公民素養課程，因為有融入教育的話，可以讓所有民眾有一個榮譽感，我們去推動就不再只是一個政府在推動而已，是來自民間，由下而上，由上而下，共同努力推動。我剛剛提到外交部之外，我還是會要求，甚至文化部可以跟僑委會討論，因為我們現在要申請的是世界文化遺產，包含我們的華語文課程、僑委會合作的這些課程都可以把這樣子的文化潛力點納入課程，也就是說未來不僅僅是我們國民本身可以去推廣自己國家這些重要的遺產，來臺學習華文的或者是在世界各地有臺灣華文教育的，都能夠同時有這樣子的概念，他們學習語言的時候，同時理解我們的文化，當他們有機會來到臺灣觀光的時候，他們就知道這是理解而非走過，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，我們會依照建議來做。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，次長請回。","接下來請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","請麥玉珍，麥玉珍，麥玉珍委員不在。","請蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162315","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162315","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564fd1e74061d8574fa33769fbc08eef2e91b1487921b64df4a59671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:47:43 - 13:01:16","影片長度":"00:13:33","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:47:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T13:01:16+08:00","duration":813,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.24596875,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.35659375,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.53909375,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.43284375000002,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.42846875,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.92534375,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.65034375000002,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.22784375,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.10534375,"end":185.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.37721875000003,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.82346875000002,"end":197.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.27846875,"end":207.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.49221875,"end":220.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.14159375000003,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.72284375,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.03909375,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.38471875000002,"end":265.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.86284375,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.02284375,"end":288.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.43596875000003,"end":271.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.21971875,"end":279.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.85221875,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.93971875,"end":289.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.48346875000004,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.18784375,"end":298.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.18721875,"end":298.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.93784375,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.15659375,"end":307.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.37159375000005,"end":305.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.33721875000003,"end":309.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.59846875,"end":317.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.61034375,"end":316.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.07409375000003,"end":324.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.95534375,"end":381.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.66784375000003,"end":327.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.30846875000003,"end":404.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.22096875000005,"end":410.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.42659375000005,"end":422.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.90596875,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.36971875,"end":427.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.11596875000004,"end":438.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.27971875000003,"end":433.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.48971875,"end":442.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.89846875,"end":443.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.35409375,"end":451.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.45534375000005,"end":443.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.96534375000005,"end":473.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.94846875,"end":476.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.47971875,"end":476.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.51346875,"end":482.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.77409375,"end":490.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.60846875000004,"end":514.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.22471875,"end":516.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.7265937500001,"end":520.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.1015937500001,"end":520.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.3884687500001,"end":531.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.42221875,"end":520.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.59346875,"end":534.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.7490937499999,"end":544.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.46471875,"end":577.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.0334687500001,"end":580.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.1553437499999,"end":587.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.83784375,"end":590.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.60534375,"end":600.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.18596875,"end":614.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.83784375,"end":627.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.13534375,"end":659.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.4340937500001,"end":662.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.5603437500001,"end":691.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.42909375,"end":695.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.4497187500001,"end":776.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.97284375,"end":788.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.63346875,"end":790.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.73034375,"end":791.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.55284375,"end":803.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.0759687500001,"end":797.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.64471875,"end":798.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.86346875,"end":803.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.12909375,"end":810.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.5503437500001,"end":809.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.3472187500001,"end":813.11909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.369,"end":28.888,"text":"次長好 有請理事長好 次長好就書面報告的內容今天我們有幾項來跟大家一起來探討那前面有許多的委員呢其實也都專注在這些點上但是我覺得有些問題我們還是想再繼續探究來跟你詢問民國92年開始我們推動世界遺產的潛力點作業至今已經納入了阿里山森林鐵道"},{"start":29.528,"end":50.84,"text":"泰鲁格国家公园玉山台湾族以及鲁凯族石板屋的一个聚落金门战地的文化景观澎湖玄武岩的一个自然保护区悲难遗址以及都兰山区那我们目前看到这些都是台湾珍贵的资产这些潜力点无论是在历史意义生态价值"},{"start":51.36,"end":65.351,"text":"甚至是文化代表上都皆具國際的一個水準但是目前因為國際政治的一個環境因素使然台灣並非聯合國教科文組的一個會員那也不是世界遺產公約的締約國"},{"start":67.893,"end":85.48,"text":"那我們現在難以實際申請世界遺產的一個登錄想先請問一下次長在現有的這個國際環境之下除了持續的參與國際組織辦理國際的論壇甚至邀請國際專家學者交流是否還有沒有突破性的一個策略規劃"},{"start":86.801,"end":100.915,"text":"我們例如我們建議上國際民間的組織或者是非官方的一個機構的合作提升台灣文化資產的國際能見度的認同在國際上也能夠曝光這部分上你們有沒有規劃"},{"start":103.911,"end":122.753,"text":"謝謝委員的提問就像您說說因為陷於政治的一個難題所以我們不能夠正式提出申請可是如何讓這些潛力點能夠被國際看見我們它的文化價值或者是我們民眾對它的一個支持跟努力的觀光價值這個部分其實就是我們的工作重點"},{"start":123.334,"end":133.607,"text":"那這個工作的方式包括除了用國際論壇的時候能夠邀集一些在ICOM或者是ECOMOS或UNESCO的重要的一些評審的委員們能夠到台灣來實際看我們的一個執行的一個狀況以外那我們也會透過一個國際的宣導的部分我們的會員"},{"start":142.898,"end":162.043,"text":"如果台灣有一些專家學者或是文字局本身去參加國際會議的時候也會主動的把我們這些準備好的資料我們準備的情形帶到國際上去跟國際社會做一個說明以上所以你們目前有沒有具體的跟國際民間組織跟非官方的機構合作的期程"},{"start":163.441,"end":184.282,"text":"我們一直都有在努力合作我們也參加了好幾個國際的組織後續如果有相關的這些具體期程可不可以資料給我們一下好 沒有問題好嗎 謝謝那我們想了解一下這個相關的時間期程表那截至113年18處的潛力點已有11處完成文本還有7處未完成 次長這個進度你滿意嗎"},{"start":187.538,"end":197.023,"text":"當然我知道大家都不滿意那我們也努力在協調這些主管機關請他們盡快的提出計畫市有什麼困境然後這個沒辦法期數為完成"},{"start":198.622,"end":218.999,"text":"因為現在看起來主管救援主要都是比較屬於自然遺產的就是內政部國家公園的這一塊那當然內政部可能就覺得他們不善於沒有申請文化遺產的不重要不是不是他們沒有申請過文化遺產的這一方面的經驗啦所以我們也一直在所以你要加強協助輔導囉對好不好"},{"start":221.221,"end":241.484,"text":"那這個部分上我們還是希望這個進度今天很多的委員都有在關心我們希望說這個部分上能夠有所突破跨部會的協調甚至從行政院院長這個部分的院會我想內部的一些院會報告我想你們應該也要提出一些更具體的建議要求跨部會應該要趕快完成"},{"start":242.145,"end":264.59,"text":"那這個部分上我在問 針對尚未完成的文本潛力點我們看到 烏山頭水庫 嘉南大郡 大屯火山群 水晶酒礦業遺址 太武閣國家公園 玉山國家公園文本何時的完成 我想你們目前有沒有一個具體的期程"},{"start":265.936,"end":281.866,"text":"有沒有相關要推動的一個計畫我們是以鼓勵的方式並沒有直接的要求一定要什麼時候完成那目前至少那個內政部看起來這個鼓勵已經有提案了內政部已經有提案我們會盡快的補助他們然後請他們在一兩年的時間內兩年的時間內那你的鼓勵有鼓勵的計畫嗎"},{"start":292.407,"end":309.138,"text":"就是補助費用看怎麼樣提升然後我們也是透過我們剛剛我們在那你要不要檢討一下是不是誘因不夠還是他們完全就是覺得不一定想做所以這個部分上的檢討我是想說是不是了解一下好那當然"},{"start":310.68,"end":337.911,"text":"應該要誘因如何要夠因為文化部的預算真的不多然後要我們提出以內政部來講我們可以給他的預算但是跟他自己的本預算我知道也有限因為內政部的預算是非常龐大的但是我想說還是要跟行政院在院會裡面的時候在討論跨部會的部分多多溝通尤其是可能還要更高層級的長官多關心這個部分上我覺得這個還要再加強"},{"start":339.111,"end":355.713,"text":"那我們希望說這個對於18處的前提點要如何確保其保存的一個維護及管理策略跟國際的標準接軌剛剛也有委員提到我們實際所登錄的點跟看到具體的現況有一點差距我想這個部分上"},{"start":356.374,"end":381.748,"text":"我覺得就像今天我們所提到18處的前點阿里山生鐵為例如何因應氣候極端的一個問題對文化資產的一個潛在的威脅這個也是我們要去好好的去深究的那針對世界遺產的人才培育以及是否已經規劃長期的工作坊實地的參訪跟國際的合作這個部分呢"},{"start":384.569,"end":410.311,"text":"這個部分我們每一年都在做除了縣市針對他們自己主管的這些潛力點可以推出各種教育推廣或是宣傳計畫以外那我們文資局也會透過國際論壇辦理的時間同步的辦理了一些人才培育或者是工作方的這樣子的方式所以目前推動潛力點的教育宣導跟社區參與的成效如何"},{"start":412.139,"end":438.499,"text":"各縣市政府都有提報了一些案子啦那我們就是持續的補助那因為有的縣市就報過一次以後就沒有再往下繼續做了那這個事情我們還是補助有用完嗎這一部分的補助有啊就是先前來提報的除了做文本的篆擬之外其實都有附加了一個推廣教育的計畫那其實他們都結案了啦但只是說怎麼樣年度上鼓勵縣市政府持續的提案"},{"start":439.554,"end":442.349,"text":"因為你剛剛說就申請一次後續就沒再申請了嘛"},{"start":443.687,"end":470.922,"text":"對啊因為我們都有保溫界就是我們那個藥品都在那可是問題縣市政府自己不來申請就沒辦法所以我沒有說就責於你我是說為什麼他只申請一次是覺得他覺得一次就夠了嗎還是他覺得說後續不需要再繼續推廣這是不是可以再幫我們追蹤一下因為你有設立這個補助嘛你也了解一下他們使用的程度還有他的具體的成效有沒有什麼幫助或者是他覺得"},{"start":472.483,"end":481.96,"text":"民眾的回應是不是對於這個部分他覺得不需要再辦怎麼會有設立補助那他們覺得只申請一次這個我們也想去探究一下可以嗎"},{"start":483.049,"end":496.563,"text":"所以我們再把各縣市申請的情形跟他們執行的計畫內容把這些資料再整理好這也是我剛剛所想去探討所以報告裡面有提到111到112補助8個縣市辦理9案的計畫113到114補助11個縣市辦理12案的計畫"},{"start":505.111,"end":513.884,"text":"我都很想請問說市長你覺得這些不管是剛剛所提到9案計劃12案計劃這些補助計劃的執行成效你滿意嗎你有大概了解嗎"},{"start":516.755,"end":544.337,"text":"以參與的人數上來講當然都還是偏少參與的人數上那我想說如何讓這些計畫這些教育計畫或是人才培育計畫能夠再有更有效的進行這文資局會的同仁會跟地方縣市政府一起再來研究因為我是覺得說你的這些補助計畫我覺得都是利益良善的支持可是為什麼他們的一些人數上的推廣"},{"start":545.538,"end":568.917,"text":"不夠更有成效那這個部分上我是覺得說尤其這18個點潛力點我覺得他們都是一個很棒的點那為什麼地方政府在配合上在具體的推廣說沒有辦法這麼達到有效所以我們還可以再進一步的去了解計畫上是不是可以再更加精進可能也要協助他們精進他們的計畫不是只是單一的補助"},{"start":570.298,"end":580.004,"text":"讓他們的計畫能夠更完善或是更具吸引力我覺得這個部分上可能也有要仰賴主管機關你們再加油一下我們會跟地方政府一起來努力"},{"start":581.189,"end":598.486,"text":"好那另外我想請問一下就是我們現在呢身心障礙者權益保障法相關的問題跟你請教一下依據身心障礙權益保障法第二條文化部負責身心障礙者精神生活之充實與藝文活動參與之規劃"},{"start":601.269,"end":626.838,"text":"推動及監督具體的包括推動文化平權促進無障礙藝文活動完善文化設施無障礙的環境協助資訊取得的無障礙等那還有這個文化資訊展覽啊出版品啊無障礙格式的一個推動現況維和未來如何提升數位及無障礙服務的覆蓋率這個部分您可以回答一下嗎"},{"start":628.543,"end":644.501,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問對於無障礙的部分我想第一個像硬體的部分我們在所有的管社或者是不論是表演或者是展覽的場館裡頭管社一定都會做到無障礙的一個相關的設施坡道或是廁所這些都有符合"},{"start":645.081,"end":661.748,"text":"至於藝文活動的提供方面其實在票卷上依照身心障礙法必須要提供免費的票卷或是半價的票卷這個部分也都在票卷管理辦法裡面都有提到了所以簡單來講就是在基礎面"},{"start":662.908,"end":690.38,"text":"環境面的部分大概都做到可是如果更積極的像每一次的特展的時候那這個特展裡面我們怎麼樣讓各種不同障礙別的朋友可以得到這些展覽的形式或者是說剛剛講的表演啦電影啦怎麼樣可以讓各種不同障礙別的人可以去欣賞到我們這些文化創作這個事情我們會逐步的還是用補助的方式然後希望創作單位他可以來對"},{"start":692.521,"end":709.022,"text":"各種不同障礙別的朋友提供各項的服務無障礙的部分我是蠻關心的那我一剛上任的時候我也去處理我們的這個國慢館無障礙的一些脅迫到的一些問題這個部分我希望你們要再多加注意但是我要提醒障別啊有很多種"},{"start":710.403,"end":723.847,"text":"視障也是一種障別有很多視障的朋友向我們反映在文化部在身心障礙權益保護的這一個區塊視障是做得比較差根本不及格像是藝文活動的語音導覽嚴重不足"},{"start":726.008,"end":750.86,"text":"不是每一場藝文活動都有語音導覽迫使視障者只能去看去被選擇有語音導覽的展覽無法自由選擇想參加的展覽還有表演只能被動配合嚴重影響了文化平權我希望這個文化部應該要精進那今天我就不再讓你再說怎麼精進啊 朝偉又站起來但是我要提出就是我遇到了這樣的狀況"},{"start":751.98,"end":775.95,"text":"也實際遇到的確並不是每一個展覽都一定有語音刀爛這部分真的要想辦法再精進再者市帳之外也有不少身帳朋友向我反映許多展演特別是給外包廠商來執行的部分毫無無障礙的概念說就以購票好了啦有些售票櫃台做的跟成人一樣高輪椅族怎麼購買"},{"start":777.49,"end":788.139,"text":"這個部分上 針對現行售票櫃台高度的不符標準我希望你們有一些普查 了解 然後看經濟方案 限期改善這部分可以嗎 你可以答應我嗎一個月給我回應可以嗎"},{"start":792.222,"end":808.469,"text":"你後面搖頭很快 我想一個月馬上搖頭兩個月好不好兩個月我們來做一個普查你後面搖頭的很快 我有看到啦可以體諒 兩個月這樣可以嗎 可以點頭嗎好 謝謝羅庭瑋委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":842,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時47分）主席，有請次長。"],["主席：好，有請李次長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長好。就書面報告的內容，今天我們有幾項跟大家一起探討，前面有許多的委員也都專注在這些點上，但是我覺得有些問題，我們還是想再繼續探究跟你詢問。民國92年開始，我們推動世界遺產潛力點的作業，至今已經納入了阿里山森林鐵道、太魯閣國家公園、玉山、排灣族以及魯凱族石板屋聚落、金門戰地文化景觀、澎湖玄武岩自然保護區、卑南遺址以及都蘭山區。我們目前看到這些都是臺灣珍貴的資產，這些潛力點無論是在歷史、意義、生態、價值，甚至是文化代表上，皆具國際水準。但是，目前因為國際政治的環境因素使然，臺灣並非聯合國教科文組織會員，也不是世界遺產公約的締約國，我們現在難以實際申請世界遺產的登錄。本席想先請問一下次長，在現有的國際環境之下，除了持續參與國際組織、辦理國際論壇，甚至邀請國際專家學者交流，還有沒有突破性的策略規劃？例如我們建議國際民間組織或者是非官方機構的合作，提升臺灣文化資產國際能見度的認同，在國際上也能夠曝光，這部分你們有沒有規劃？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提問。就像您說的，因為限於政治難題，所以我們不能夠正式提出申請，可是如何讓這些潛力點能夠被國際看見，其文化價值或者是民眾對它的支持跟努力，即觀光價值的部分，其實就是我們的工作重點。而工作的方式除了在國際論壇的時候，能夠邀集一些在ICOM、ICOMOS或UNESCO重要的評審委員們到臺灣，實際看我們執行的狀況以外，也會透過國際宣導，如果臺灣有些專家學者或是文資局本身去參加國際會議的時候，也會主動把我們準備好的資料、我們準備的情形帶到國際上，去跟國際社會做一個說明，以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們目前有沒有具體跟國際民間組織、跟非官方機構合作的期程？"],["李次長靜慧：我們一直都有在努力合作，我們也有參加好幾個國際組織，所以每一年的年會，我們都會去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：後續如果有相關的具體期程，可不可以將資料提供給我們？"],["李次長靜慧：好，沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好嗎？謝謝。我們想了解一下相關的時間、期程表。截至113年，18處的潛力點，已有11處完成文本，還有7處未完成。次長，這個進度你滿意嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：當然我知道大家都不滿意，我們也努力在協調這些主管機關，請他們儘快地提出計畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是有什麼困境，讓7處未完成？"],["李次長靜慧：現在看起來，主管機關主要都是比較屬於自然遺產的，就是內政部國家公園這一塊，當然內政部可能覺得他們不擅於此，沒有申請文化遺產的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不擅於，還是他們覺得不重要？"],["李次長靜慧：不是、不是。他們沒有申請過文化遺產這一方面的經驗，所以我們也一直在找尋……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以你要加強協助、輔導，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天很多的委員都有在關心，我們希望這個部分能夠有所突破，能進行跨部會的協調，甚至從行政院院長的院會，我想內部的一些院會報告，你們應該也要提出一些更具體的建議，要求跨部會應該要趕快完成。針對尚未完成的文本潛力點，我們看到烏山頭水庫、嘉南大圳、大屯火山群、水金九礦業遺址、太魯閣國家公園、玉山國家公園等文本何時完成，你們目前有沒有一個具體的期程？有沒有相關推動的計畫？"],["李次長靜慧：我們是鼓勵的方式，並沒有直接的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：鼓勵的方式？"],["李次長靜慧：對、對，並沒有直接要求一定要什麼時候完成。目前至少內政部已經有……"],["羅委員廷瑋：看起來這個鼓勵有困難？"],["李次長靜慧：內政部已經有提案了……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那個提案的計畫……"],["李次長靜慧：我們會儘快地補助他們，請他們在兩年的時間內完成這個部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你的鼓勵，有鼓勵的計畫嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：就是補助費用看怎麼樣提升，我們也是透過我們在世界遺產……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你要不要檢討一下是不是誘因不夠，還是他們完全就是覺得不一定想做？這個部分上的檢討，我想是不是了解一下？"],["李次長靜慧：好，如何讓誘因足夠，因為文化部的預算真的不多，以內政部來講，我們可以給他們的預算，大概跟他們自己的本預算也有很大的差距。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道也有限啦！因為內政部的預算是非常龐大的。"],["李次長靜慧：對、對，所以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想還是要在行政院院會討論跨部會的議題時，多多溝通，尤其可能還要更高層級的長官多關心，對這個部分，我覺得還要再加強。我們希望對於18處的潛力點，如何確保其保存的維護及管理策略跟國際標準接軌，剛剛也有委員提到，我們實際登錄的點跟看到具體的現況有一點差距。我覺得就像今天我們提到18處的景點，以阿里山森鐵為例，如何因應氣候極端的問題，對文化資產潛在的威脅，這也是我們要好好深究的。針對世界遺產人才培育，以及是否已經規劃長期工作坊、實地參訪跟國際合作這個部分呢？"],["李次長靜慧：這部分我們每一年都在做，除了縣市針對自己主管的潛力點可以推出各種教育推廣或宣傳計畫以外，文資局也會透過國際論壇辦理的時間，同步辦理一些人才培育或工作坊，採這樣的方式。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前推動潛力點教育宣導跟社區參與的成效如何？"],["李次長靜慧：各縣市政府都提報了一些案子，我們就是持續補助。對於有的縣市報過一次之後就沒有再往下繼續做，我們還是用鼓勵的模式。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這部分的補助有用完嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：有啊！就是先前提報的，除了文本撰擬之外，其實都有附加推廣教育計畫。其實大部分都結案了，只是要研究怎麼樣鼓勵縣市政府按年度持續提案。"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是如你剛剛說的，申請一次，後續就沒有再申請了，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：對啊！我們都有把文件準備好、要點都在那兒，問題是縣市政府自己不申請就沒辦法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，你們都有補助啦！是他們不來申請，對不對？所以我沒有究責於你，而是問為什麼他們只申請一次？是因為他們覺得一次就夠了嗎？還是覺得後續不需要再繼續推廣？這部分可不可以再幫我追蹤一下？因為你有設立這項補助嘛！所以也應該了解一下他們的使用程度。"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還有具體的成效、有沒有什麼幫助，或者是不是民眾的回應讓他們覺得這部分不需要再辦？怎麼會設立了補助，他們卻只申請1次？這點我也想探究一下，可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，我們再把各縣市申請的情形跟執行的計畫內容等資料整理好，交給委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，這也是我剛剛想探討的。報告裡面也提到，111年到112年補助8個縣市辦理9案計畫，113年到114年補助11個縣市辦理12案計畫，我想請問次長，不管是剛剛提到的9案計畫還是12案計畫，對於這些補助計畫的執行成效，你滿意嗎？你大概了解嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：以參與的人數來講，當然都還是偏少。我想如何讓這些計畫，包括教育計畫或人才培育計畫能更有效地進行，文資局同仁會再跟地方縣市政府一起研究。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我覺得你們這些補助計畫都立意良善，我都支持啊！可是為什麼人數上、推廣上無法更有成效？尤其這18個潛力點，我覺得都是很棒的點，為什麼地方政府在配合上、在具體推廣時沒有辦法這麼有效？我們還可以進一步了解計畫上是不是可以更加精進，可能也要協助精進他們的計畫，而不只有單一的補助。如何讓他們的計畫更完善或更具吸引力，我覺得這部分可能也要仰賴你們主管機關再加油。"],["李次長靜慧：我們會跟地方政府一起努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。","另外，我想就現在身心障礙者權益保障法的相關問題向你請教一下，依據身心障礙者權益保障法第二條，文化部負責身心障礙者精神生活之充實與藝文活動參與之規劃、推動及監督，具體內容包括文化平權、促進無障礙藝文活動、完善文化設施無障礙的環境、協助資訊取得的無障礙等。文化資訊、展覽、出版品無障礙格式的推動現況為何？未來如何提升數位及無障礙服務的覆蓋率？這個部分您可以回答嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員的提問。對於無障礙部分，在硬體方面，我們在所有館舍，不論是表演或展覽場館都一定會做無障礙的相關設施，包括坡道或廁所都有符合；至於提供藝文活動方面，依照身心障礙法必須提供免費票券或半價票券，這部分在票券管理辦法裡面也都提到了。簡單來講，就是在基礎面、環境面大概都做到了。可是如果是更積極的，像是每一次特展的時候，在該特展裡面怎麼樣讓不同障礙別的朋友都可以體驗到展覽的形式，或者像剛剛講的表演、電影，怎麼樣讓各種不同障礙別人士可以欣賞到這些文化創作，這件事我們還是會以補助的方式逐步推動，希望創作單位可以對各種不同障礙別的朋友提供各項服務。"],["羅委員廷瑋：無障礙的部分我是滿關心的，我剛上任時也處理了國漫館無障礙斜坡道的問題，希望你們在這部分要多加注意。我也要提醒障別有很多種，視障也是一種障別，但是有很多視障朋友向我們反映，文化部在身心障礙權益保護這一個區塊上，對視障做得比較差，根本不及格。像是藝文活動的語音導覽嚴重不足，不是每一場藝文活動都有語音導覽，迫使視障者只能去看、去被選擇有語音導覽的展覽，無法自由選擇想參加的展覽還有表演，只能被動配合，嚴重影響了文化平權，我希望這個文化部應該要精進。今天我就不再讓你說怎麼精進，召委又站起來，但是我要提出的就是，我遇到了這樣的狀況，也實際遇到的確並不是每一個展覽都一定有語音導覽，這部分真的要想辦法再精進。再者，視障之外，也有不少身障朋友向我反映許多展演，特別是給外包廠商執行的部分，毫無無障礙的概念，就以購票好了，有些售票櫃檯做得跟成人一樣高，輪椅族怎麼購買？這個部分針對現行售票櫃檯高度不符標準，我希望你們有一些普查了解，然後提精進方案，限期改善，這部分可以嗎？你可以答應我嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，沒有問題，我們再來做……"],["羅委員廷瑋：1個月給我回應可以嗎？您後面搖頭很快。"],["李次長靜慧：做個調查，因為比較……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我講1個月，他馬上搖頭，2個月好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：不知道委員希望的範圍，那2個月我們來做一個普查，然後提個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好啦！你後面那位搖頭得很快，我有看到，可以體諒，2個月這樣可以嗎？可以點頭嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝你，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，次長請回。","接下來請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162312","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162312","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564e182f1ecd2060dac33769fbc08eef2e99b36adcf2fc0175109889872e64f964c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:37:51 - 12:47:34","影片長度":"00:09:43","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:37:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:47:34+08:00","duration":583,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.64221875,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.01721875,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.33971875,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.085968750000003,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.205343750000004,"end":55.532843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.20784375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.52659375,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.20159375,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.32909375,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.47221875,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.13846875000002,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.87534375,"end":178.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.94284375,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.18034375000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.18659375000001,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.68471875,"end":227.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.88971875000001,"end":229.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.66596875000002,"end":232.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.43346875,"end":241.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.52909375000002,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.77221875,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":273.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.36784375,"end":277.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.21971875,"end":332.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.64971875000003,"end":364.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.34534375000004,"end":367.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.42909375000005,"end":368.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.23909375000005,"end":389.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.80971875,"end":390.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.92784375,"end":400.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.98096875000005,"end":412.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.30409375000005,"end":412.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.97909375,"end":416.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.86034375,"end":418.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.00346875,"end":421.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.85534375000003,"end":425.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.93909375000004,"end":427.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.82909375,"end":444.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.36659375000005,"end":454.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.57159375000003,"end":498.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.70409375,"end":553.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.6997187500001,"end":560.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.39909375,"end":560.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.4834687499999,"end":560.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.20909375,"end":561.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.22596875,"end":564.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.24284375,"end":561.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.71909375,"end":571.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.27534375,"end":570.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.38471875,"end":573.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.17784375,"end":573.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.0634687500001,"end":580.36221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.336,"end":24.491,"text":"市長我們看到我們的世界遺產潛力點大多是在2000年的時候初期就陸續納進去文化部在去年2月才修訂潛力點零選籍除名的作業要點"},{"start":26.132,"end":43.771,"text":"明定了優先順序跟退場機制那當然要點都修訂一年了我沒有看到太多新的變化所以請問目前這套機制運作的怎麼樣有沒有新的項目準備列入又有沒有哪些點是被要除名的"},{"start":45.596,"end":66.894,"text":"跟委員報告這個要點我們目前根據這個要點在召開推動會那推動會裡面是有在討論要增加客家的部分客家八音那至於除名的部分目前這十二項委員是認為都還是具有潛力沒有打算有除名的一個計畫"},{"start":69.285,"end":93.782,"text":"你好像料到我要講什麼因為我身為一個客家人真的要問你為什麼這麼多年來客家的巴音、米食、茶文化、竹編這些很珍貴的文化記憶就從來沒有列入台灣世界遺產潛力點的名單剛才很高興聽到你說即將我們的客家的巴音要列入原來總統也指出"},{"start":94.182,"end":119.686,"text":"客家六建的政策已有成效要讓台灣的客家文化成為全球多元文化的珍寶所以你們要把台灣的文化推向世界的時候一定要考量到我們客家文化把它列為潛力點那世界文化遺產的推動不是只有國內文化保存還有要被國際看到的一個重要面向你們的遴選要點提報單位可以是文資局"},{"start":120.186,"end":146.922,"text":"也可以是地方政府但如果他們地方政府沒有提那中央的文資局為什麼這麼多年有沒有主動去提報一些有相關的那這也想問次長說讓我知道有沒有什麼特別原因因為我說剛剛前面講沒針沒剪的狀態裡面有沒有有一些你現在即將要增加客家巴音那是如果地方沒有提的話你們自己會提嗎"},{"start":149.181,"end":173.129,"text":"目前剛剛跟委員做說明的就是客家八音這個是在我們推動委員會因為這次的邀集的委員裡面有一位是客家的音樂的專業那老師們就提出說覺得在我們五行文化遺產的部分其實可以增列客家八音那這個在委員會裡面得到大家的同意可是他的程序上即使說我們有委員這樣提那我們還是得去找到一個"},{"start":173.849,"end":191.659,"text":"所謂的地方縣市政府他得先得到地方縣市政府的一個文資身份之後然後再來逐步的提報所以這個部分我們還在跟地方政府研議中看是要有哪一個縣市政府有這個意願願意提報出來的時候那我們就會讓他按照程序來走進入我們的潛力名單"},{"start":192.239,"end":216.562,"text":"不過剛剛你提的這有點特別就是說要有一個你們剛好有委員有事實上是客家人然後才有提所以我的意思說如果從你們角度上來看你們自己到底有沒有去solo整個的我們台灣的一些相關的文化裡面來設為你們的潛力點還是因為有一個委員有在你們才有提然後其他的都沒有去這麼多年來沒有特別去提出這個東西"},{"start":218.168,"end":227.453,"text":"應該是講我們這個不論是有形或無形這些潛力點的提報都是透過專家委員或者是地方縣市政府還有那個"},{"start":230.02,"end":250.437,"text":"就是以專要委來提報他們提出了一個潛力名單之後我們再跟他的主管機關能夠去溝通所以這件事情文資局並不是主動每一年在自己做這樣的研究調查可是只要有人提醒文資局就會找到適當的單位請他們來做研議跟後面提報的動作"},{"start":251.838,"end":273.128,"text":"不過我覺得主動性還要有否則的話很被動等待如果有些人不特別會去提或地方政府沒提的話我認為大概很多東西都不會被你們社會是潛力點或者應該反過來講說你們有沒有去做宣傳為什麼因為我覺得要讓台灣文化走向世界最近大家讀到知道全世界的客家莊"},{"start":275.249,"end":294.277,"text":"連東非洲都有我認為透過文化部的努力的話台灣完全可以成為全球認識客家文化的一個關鍵基地那說到世界文化遺產申請的基礎的文化行銷我不得不佩服我們的韓國鄰近國家我也報說韓國事實上是全球"},{"start":295.037,"end":322.111,"text":"最佳的飲食軟實力的行銷典範所以他們在2013年把泡菜製作現在叫興起列入聯合國非物質文化遺產甚至一部黑白大廚的韓國廚藝的競賽的影集都能夠在全世界引起掀起我們的韓食的熱潮所以想問次長我們自己到底有沒有決心也要做出世界看的"},{"start":322.671,"end":330.814,"text":"成如委員所提醒的其實除了潛力點被提報了以後他其實要做一個相當一個文本的一個準備那這個文本以後他其實就是那個故事性還有他未來要怎麼行銷怎麼教育推廣這些字都是一個一連串的那這部分"},{"start":351.783,"end":367.39,"text":"文化部或者是文資局可以學習的真的還很多像韓國的這些做法我們真的也都看在眼裡我們也很急著希望能夠協助我們這些很珍貴的文化資產能夠被看見那這些事情我們目前"},{"start":368.63,"end":388.612,"text":"當然以中央部會來講通常是一種被動的就是補助我們比較少能夠自己主動去開委託案或是什麼那可是這個補助我們會積極的來跟地方政府或者是民間團體來鼓勵他們能夠提出申請那我們藉由這個款項的補助能夠讓"},{"start":389.993,"end":417.642,"text":"我覺得文化部還是有個導引的角色在啦因為你補助還是會有個方向所以反過來問是說立法院又可以從哪些法規跟預算面來幫文化部當然預算的支持是一個非常重要的事情那而且不只是我剛剛講講說我們今年只有補助款還算有一點保留我們的業務費其實是被被砍得蠻兇的啦所以要做委託案要主動出擊必須要業務費可是我們現在"},{"start":419.042,"end":436.935,"text":"文字局的90%都是補助款所以這也是我們在預算結構上面的一個先天性的限制那如果說委員這邊可以同意的話我們也希望教文會的委員其實我覺得教文會委員真的很支持文化部了在預算上面其實給我們蠻多的一個支持的力道"},{"start":437.856,"end":453.876,"text":"未來我們就是會在這個力道在做事的方法上面更積極更主動一點這個事情我們會來努力最後就是說市長你今天報告主題之一是完善的潛力點保存那你過去也坦承推動困難是因為民眾認識不足可是我要講的是文化"},{"start":455.989,"end":472.15,"text":"問題是文化部對維護的方式上可能有些問題像這張左邊這張照片呢是像是文化部列為潛力點的桃園台地的那個皮堂你們說它事實上是完整的地景聚落這張照片事實上是公有地的皮堂可是現場"},{"start":473.371,"end":497.208,"text":"右手邊事實上現場是雜草叢生有民眾丟棄垃圾堆積雲苗死亡夏天還會飄出惡臭也沒有好好的維護如果你今天要去推說我們的桃園台地皮糖那你只有一個點可是整個桃園的台地皮糖是很多點的那這時候就連桃園人自己都會覺得說他們這個皮糖根本也不是一個很好"},{"start":498.749,"end":523.922,"text":"放出來的點是八德皮堂有生態休閒的功能就很漂亮所以有沒有要整體要去做維護去做調整否則今天觀光客來看到你推薦的桃園皮、台地皮堂結果看到的不是八德的話那他也會誤會說這樣子的一個狀態根本不是你文資局或者是文化部提出來的所以想問市長說這樣的落差問題點你們是不是可以去做跨部會"},{"start":525.143,"end":552.722,"text":"甚至就是中央跟地方的合作讓他們去做一個比較好的完備的否則的話這保存就沒有意義結果你們推出來的東西就跟現場事實上有一些事實上是落差的所以我也希望說接下來我覺得請文化部可不可以優先研議將客家文化納入到台灣世界遺產潛力的點的推動項目不是只有客家巴音客家美食這些都是一個可去考量的點"},{"start":553.695,"end":570.426,"text":"好 委員的提醒 這個我們包括剛剛皮糖的那個養護的狀況我們會跟桃園市政府再來那這個月內是不是提供相關的那個報告給我這邊好 然後那個客家文化納入世界遺產潛力點的部分我們也會來進行可以兩個月嗎好 謝謝市長 謝謝好 謝謝林玉琴委員 市長請回我們接下來請羅廷偉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時37分）主席，麻煩請李靜慧次長。"],["主席：好，有請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員，你好。"],["林委員月琴：次長午安。我們看到我們的世界遺產潛力點大都是2000年的時候在初期就陸續納進去，文化部在去年2月才修訂潛力點遴選及除名作業要點，裡面也明定了優先順序跟退場機制，但是這個要點都修訂1年了，我沒有看到太多新的變化，請問目前這套機制運作得怎麼樣？有沒有新的項目準備列入？有沒有哪些點是要被除名的？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，我們目前根據這個要點召開推動會，在推動會裡面有在討論要增加客家的部分，就是客家八音。至於除名的部分，目前委員對這12項都還是認為具有潛力，並沒有除名的計畫。"],["林委員月琴：你好像已經料到我講什麼，我身為一個客家人，我真的要問你，為什麼這麼多年來客家八音、米食、茶文化、竹編這些很珍貴的文化記憶從來沒有列入臺灣世界遺產潛力點的名單？我剛才很高興聽到你說我們客家八音即將要列入。賴總統也指出「客家六箭」的政策已有成效，要讓臺灣的客家文化成為全球多元文化的珍寶，所以你們在把臺灣的文化推向世界的時候，一定要考量到我們客家文化，把它列為潛力點，世界文化遺產的推動不是只有國內文化保存，還有要被國際看到的這個重要面向。你們遴選要點的提報單位可以是文資局，也可以是地方政府，但如果地方政府沒有提，中央的文資局這麼多年來有沒有主動提報一些相關的部分？我也想問次長，因為我想知道有沒有什麼特別的原因。我剛剛前面講到沒增沒減的狀態，你現在即將要增加客家八音，如果地方沒有提的話，你們自己會提嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：剛剛有跟委員說明客家八音，這一次在我們推動委員會所邀集的委員裡面，有一位有客家音樂的專業，老師們就覺得在我們無形文化遺產的部分其實可以增列客家八音，這個在委員會裡面也得到大家的同意，可是在程序上，即使有委員這樣提，我們還是必須找到一個地方縣市政府，因為要先得到地方縣市政府認定的文資身分，之後再來逐步提報，這個部分我們還在跟地方政府研議中，看哪一個縣市政府有這個意願提報出來，然後我們就會按照程序走，讓它進入我們的潛力點名單。"],["林委員月琴：剛剛你提的有一點很特別，就是剛好有委員是客家人，然後才有提，我的意思是說，從你們的角度上來看，你們自己到底有沒有去搜羅臺灣的相關文化設為你們的潛力點？還是因為有一個委員在裡面，你們才有提，然後其他的部分這麼多年來都沒有特別去提出來？"],["李次長靜慧：不論是有形或無形，這些潛力點的提報都是透過專家委員或者是地方縣市政府，就是由專家委員提報，在他們提出一個潛力名單之後，我們再跟主管機關溝通，所以對這件事情，文資局並不是每一年自己主動做這樣的研究調查，可是只要有人提醒，文資局就會找到適當的單位，然後請他們研議跟進行後面的提報動作。"],["林委員月琴：不過我覺得還是要有主動性，否則只是很被動地等待。如果沒有人特別去提或地方政府沒有提的話，我認為大概很多東西都不會被你們設為潛力點。我應該反過來問你們有沒有去宣傳，為什麼？因為我覺得要讓臺灣文化走向世界。最近大家知道全世界的客家庄連在東非洲都有，我認為透過文化部的努力，臺灣完全可以成為全球認識客家文化的關鍵基地。說到世界文化遺產之申請基礎的文化行銷，我不得不佩服鄰近我們的韓國，衛報說韓國事實上是全球最佳飲食軟實力的行銷典範。他們在2013年把泡菜（現在叫辛奇）的製作列入聯合國非物質文化遺產，甚至一部名為「黑白大廚」的韓國廚藝競賽影集都能夠在全世界掀起韓食的熱潮。所以我想問次長，我們自己到底有沒有決心做出世界看得見的文化實力？臺灣的客家美食也不輸韓國，我們的潛力點計畫還有哪些地方事實上應該可以更努力的？"],["李次長靜慧：誠如委員所提醒的，在潛力點被提報了以後，其實要做一個文本的準備，在這個文本裡面其實就是包括故事性還有未來要怎麼行銷、怎麼教育推廣，這些都是一連串的。這部分文化部或文資局可以學習的真的還有很多，像韓國的這些作法，我們真的都有看在眼裡，我們也很急著希望能夠協助這些很珍貴的文化資產被看見。目前這些事情，當然以中央部會來講，通常是一種被動的方式，就是補助，我們比較少能夠自己主動去開委託案或是什麼，可是這個補助，我們會積極地鼓勵地方政府或民間團體能夠提出申請，藉由款項的補助能夠讓臺灣的文化被保存。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得文化部還是有個導引的角色，因為你補助還是會有個方向，所以我反過來提問，立法院又可以從哪些法規跟預算面幫文化部？"],["李次長靜慧：當然預算的支持是一個非常重要的事情，不只是我剛剛講的，今年的補助款還算有一點保留，我們的業務費其實被砍得滿兇的，要做委託案、要主動出擊必須要有業務費，可是我們現在文資局90%以上都是補助款，這也是我們在預算結構上面的先天性限制。如果委員可以同意的話，我們也希望教文會的委員……其實我覺得教文會的委員真的很支持文化部了，在預算上面，其實給予我們滿多支持的力道，未來我們會在做事的方法上面更積極、更主動一點，這個事情我們會努力。"],["林委員月琴：好。最後，次長，今天報告的主題之一是完善潛力點的保存，過去也坦承推動困難，是因為民眾認識不足，可是我要講，問題是文化部對於維護的方式可能有些問題。像左邊這張照片，是文化部列為潛力點的桃園臺地陂塘，你們說它事實上是完整的地景與聚落，這張照片是公有地的陂塘；右手邊照片是現場的狀況，事實上雜草叢生，有民眾丟棄垃圾，堆積魚苗死亡，夏天還會飄出惡臭，也沒有好好地維護。如果你今天要去推動桃園臺地陂塘，那你只有一個點，可是整個桃園臺地陂塘是很多點的，連桃園人自己都會覺得，他們這個陂塘根本也不是一個很好的地方。你現在放出來的點是八德陂塘，有生態休閒的功能就很漂亮，你們有沒有要整體去維護、調整？否則今天觀光客來，看到你推薦的桃園臺地陂塘，結果看到的不是八德的話，他也會誤會這樣的狀態根本不是文資局或文化部提出來的。所以想問次長這樣的落差問題，你們是不是可以跨部會，甚至是中央跟地方合作，讓他們去進行比較好的、完備的維護？否則的話，保存就沒有意義，結果你們推出來的東西就跟現場有落差。我也希望接下來請文化部可不可以優先研議，將客家文化納入臺灣世界遺產潛力點的推動項目，不是只有客家八音，客家美食這些都是可以考量的點。"],["李次長靜慧：好，對於委員的提醒，包括剛剛陂塘養護的狀況，我們會跟桃園市政府再來……"],["林委員月琴：是不是一個月內提供相關的報告給我？"],["李次長靜慧：好。關於客家文化納入世界遺產潛力點的部分，我們也會繼續研議。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩。"],["李次長靜慧：可以兩個月嗎？"],["林委員月琴：好、好，謝謝次長。"],["李次長靜慧：OK，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162308","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162308","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564b4984a329ee5501e33769fbc08eef2e99b36adcf2fc017514318f82bdde02a7a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:18:53 - 12:29:08","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:18:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:29:08+08:00","duration":615,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.12534375,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.06159375,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.52909375,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.53721875,"end":28.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.207843750000002,"end":39.704093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.21034375,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.56034375,"end":45.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.79596875,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.80409375,"end":52.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.87846875,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.98784375,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.844093750000006,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.18971875,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.28221875,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.79659375,"end":69.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.46721875,"end":71.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.74971875,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.99409375,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.22159375000001,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.76534375,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.57096875,"end":84.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.29596875,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.68784375,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.15596875,"end":92.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.27346875,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.33221875000001,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.96909375,"end":99.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.75784375,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.98096875,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.03971875,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.16596875,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.24971875000001,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.86534375000001,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.87346875,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.90659375000001,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.53909375,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.61846875,"end":131.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.49971875,"end":133.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.76534375,"end":133.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.50784375,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.64284375,"end":134.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.03096875,"end":151.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.41221875000002,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.49596875,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.68971875,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.26221875000002,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.16909375,"end":170.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.80159375000002,"end":177.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.78784375,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.54721875,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.17534375000002,"end":184.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.63909375,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.74846875,"end":189.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.16534375,"end":194.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.51534375,"end":196.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.94971875000002,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.64096875,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.17596875,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.55971875,"end":208.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.00659375,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.72346875000002,"end":218.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.79846875,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.08909375000002,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.26596875,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.55659375000002,"end":229.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.86846875,"end":235.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.46659375000002,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.48346875000001,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.40721875000003,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.41971875000002,"end":239.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.36471875,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.51659375000003,"end":241.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.27596875,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.73159375,"end":243.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.18284375000002,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.25034375,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.50284375,"end":247.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.57034375,"end":247.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.29971875,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.32909375000003,"end":254.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.34971875000002,"end":256.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.81346875,"end":258.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.51784375,"end":260.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.21784375000004,"end":263.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.25534375,"end":266.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.11596875000004,"end":267.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.41096875,"end":269.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.44846875,"end":274.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.49846875000003,"end":298.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.63846875,"end":298.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.75221875,"end":302.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.81909375000004,"end":309.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.27784375000005,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.52221875000004,"end":326.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.51159375000003,"end":329.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.06846875,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.29534375000003,"end":334.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.72971875,"end":335.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.11346875000004,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.94409375000004,"end":348.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.16221875,"end":354.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.69784375,"end":349.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.11034375,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.49409375000005,"end":363.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.53096875,"end":367.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.29409375,"end":371.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.83784375000005,"end":385.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.38409375000003,"end":386.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.49784375,"end":388.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.53971875,"end":390.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.97409375,"end":392.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.64471875000004,"end":397.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.43284375,"end":413.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.19409375000004,"end":416.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.51846875,"end":425.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.50034375,"end":433.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.32596875,"end":437.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.68409375000005,"end":439.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.62471875000006,"end":445.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.36721875,"end":446.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.35346875000005,"end":458.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.99284375,"end":466.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.46471875000003,"end":465.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.37159375000005,"end":493.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.79346875000005,"end":496.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.30784375,"end":498.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.04159375,"end":508.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.38596875,"end":512.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.82846875,"end":518.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.61221875,"end":531.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.0322187500001,"end":533.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.25971875,"end":553.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.2947187500001,"end":557.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.13784375,"end":563.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.5378437500001,"end":563.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.63909375,"end":567.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.3134687500001,"end":576.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.08846875,"end":586.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.0915937500001,"end":587.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.4540937500001,"end":586.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.0065937500001,"end":588.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.24284375,"end":589.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.79096875,"end":591.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.1115937500001,"end":592.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.8159687500001,"end":593.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.32221875,"end":593.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.5078437500001,"end":593.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.74409375,"end":595.4990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.68909375,"end":610.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.69721875,"end":598.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.8190937500001,"end":602.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.82284375,"end":604.3584687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":17.145,"end":20.708,"text":"你們文化部主辦這個台北時裝週這對我們台灣的這個時裝啊對很多很優秀的這個設計師非常重要今年特別年嘛可是"},{"start":41.638,"end":56.123,"text":"最近不只有網友 很多很優秀的設計師爆料他們非常憤慨今年啊 走秀的時候 台北時裝週走秀竟然爆出說有用中國的成衣 才去淘寶買的直接用貼牌印上自己的圖案大家看一下這個圖案左邊這個淘寶上面在賣的 你看"},{"start":68.834,"end":74.657,"text":"一件啦人民幣26塊在台幣應該半碗苦娘這是走秀的照片這是不是貼牌直接買了淘寶上面的衣服100多塊的衣服貼牌竟然就可以在我們台北時裝桌這麼重要的場合上去走秀更可惡的"},{"start":97.369,"end":110.317,"text":"不是只有今年耶 它是累犯耶 古年2024年的秋冬會出現一樣 你看 也是一樣 淘寶上面清清楚楚的一個圖案然後 貼牌以後 就上了我們的台北時裝週走秀"},{"start":120.933,"end":127.778,"text":"台北時裝桌對我們整個時尚產業這多重要對我們那些很努力很優秀的設計師多麼重要對於我們的創造國際聲量多重要出大問題"},{"start":134.854,"end":154.926,"text":"這不是蠻丟臉的一件事嗎所以跟委員報告所以針對這個案子我們已經組成了委員會來進行調查當中那如果調查結果屬實是有網友所指稱的這樣的現象的時候我們其實就是會追究處理取消他的資格這樣子來看一下這傷害有多大來我們看下一張下一張下一張我們很優秀的這個設計師啊如果要去參加台北時裝桌從設計"},{"start":164.684,"end":167.907,"text":"選材 到打板 裁剪 印刷 刺繡大概啊 時間大概用掉 最起碼喔 至少兩個禮拜以上喔有時候要上個 超過一個月 對不對成本大概 至少不要說兩千塊 有時候都要上萬塊耶就你去淘寶去買中國貨 買來以後就貼牌就貼上去真的可能身份是四八個"},{"start":193.408,"end":201.075,"text":"這傷害太大了吧對我們的創作對我們跨上國際品牌傷害有多大好 你們一直在講說你們怎麼處理來 我看一下你們的處理面對這樣的野犯對我們傷害這麼大你們說針對社群上面對本次台北時裝桌品牌秀某一個廠牌這個就是我現在最有意見的很多有名的設計師來抗議"},{"start":222.108,"end":249.454,"text":"他是獵犯啊你為什麼連他的品牌都沒有公佈為什麼是寫了一個某一品牌我想說在調查中如果調查結束後我們一定會公佈我們的處理方式你們還要調查多久 一個多月了餒市長 我想我們其實創立台北時裝這個是很多設計師現在來吹哨來抗議來爆料第一個你明明知道是哪個廠牌的對不對"},{"start":251.343,"end":263.315,"text":"第一個 那為什麼你還要這樣保護他 這是一個第二個 我剛剛執行前喔我還請我辦公室上去 看這個台北時鐘週的官網品牌資料庫啊 這個壘犯啊 品牌掛在那裡你們在這裡處理嗎 市長 是不是馬上去把他拿下來"},{"start":275.543,"end":301.615,"text":"我想我們整個徵求廠商然後參與廠商誰能夠掛到這個聯合品牌上面都有它一定的規則我們就依照我們公告的這個要點來處理在它沒有被證明有實質的違法或者是違反要點之前我們就會讓它或者是說我們也來研議是不是在有疑慮的狀況下我們先來下架能夠上我們台北時裝中走秀是一個很大的榮耀"},{"start":302.856,"end":308.986,"text":"對不對 結果他是獵犯 他拿中國後來貼牌你們是這樣處理的 現在要追究的是什麼你在調查 你還要追究責任"},{"start":313.178,"end":331.636,"text":"當初你們的甄選委員會到底是怎麼甄選的我看那個名單很多都很有名啊很專業啊我們要肯定他要去查到底是怎麼有人推薦他還是有甄選過程出什麼問題而且是累犯兩次再去查清楚好不好好我們一併來討論一併來檢討而且裡面對新銳的這個品牌你們要提供20萬的補助對不對"},{"start":333.482,"end":348.992,"text":"這個品牌有沒有這個有沒有配品補助其實這樣這一類的品牌秀的部分我們沒有提供補助只是提供這樣子的一個平台機會讓他們可以上台走秀所以我們做個主席先站起來我簡單做個"},{"start":356.155,"end":384.918,"text":"第一個這個問題已經嚴重到很多有名的設計師專業的設計師整個都砸鍋了他們有做了很多的意見回饋我請利用這個場合我跟次長還有大家共享一下說參加展會之後效益是不是低落的訂單行為沒有像如期那麼高第二個如果以後是不是開始正式收費的時候有多少國內設計師會願意去報名你看本來大家爭著要來的"},{"start":386.512,"end":387.62,"text":"結果你看 出現這個問題"},{"start":389.588,"end":416.608,"text":"一顆老鼠死了壞了一整鍋粥這個問題要趕快處理 好不好大家對台北我們對你們這個活動是老蔣本來是非常非常重視的整個時尚的產業 設計的產業已經第八年了大家都在拍手的時候突然出現連兩次連兩年出現這個問題好 他們還回饋了一個意見說曾經努力向文化部申請補助可是發現啊申請到的補助的人永遠都是那些人"},{"start":417.614,"end":442.995,"text":"只是交差拿補助幾乎很多都是內定的對努力在國際上曝光的台灣品牌很不公平當某媒體公司拿到標案的時候其他陣營的媒體不可能用力去報導其他努力應酬才開始有機會可以去參加的才可以加入這個群體這可能都是很多意見好不好去查清楚有沒有這些問題好 這我們會來深刻檢討最後我們做五個具體的我們提五個具體的訴求第一個 以後啊"},{"start":447.278,"end":448.779,"text":"請參加的作品要跟主辦方要切結好不好要簽署切結你來參加我們的時裝桌你參展不能夠用縣省的成單用成一再去貼牌可不可以"},{"start":460.589,"end":488.698,"text":"這部分的訴求跟要求我們都會來研議看怎麼樣這一定要落實喔好不好好明定而且要落實以後他一定要簽這個切結好不好第二個參展這個產品的審查跟指導這個過程要兼備到商業性才能夠讓我們以後展期結束以後有能夠收到訂單避免為了消化預算變成一個過場活動第三我們要多鼓勵品牌要多跟我們台灣的廠商要合作讓他可以跟流台灣第四個"},{"start":489.398,"end":511.988,"text":"未來展會結束以後的訂單啦效益這個統計表要公開透明我今天沒有時間啦雖然我有去調你們那個整個那個收益跟整個後來那個訂單看起來這個要加油啦你一個月內給我一份好不好就是你們辦完這八年以後成效到底有多大好不好最後一個這個最重要這是一個行動方案我們的設計師受的委屈了因為他們非常努力啊"},{"start":512.884,"end":532.712,"text":"可能在國際上很多都邀請我們很專業的很多設計師去可是你出了這個事情能不能在一個月內召開一個公聽會邀請我們台灣設計師共商我們台北時裝桌要如何去改進好不好一方面請聽他們的聲音一方面把這些弊病趕快做一個檢討然後請聽他們的聲音我們共同往前走可以嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":534.581,"end":549.431,"text":"辦理台北時裝周跟我們辦理台北書展都是一樣的都是希望對這個產業能夠跟留台灣能夠有商業性能夠走出台灣都是一樣的目的那如果過程中我們的執行有什麼缺點這我們會持續來檢討跟改進"},{"start":553.342,"end":571.238,"text":"我現在具體的 對不對所以我們目標是一樣的嘛 對不對我們也心疼我們的設計師心疼的設計師啦我們要肯定他們的努力嘛 對不對事實上你辦這個台北時裝說你本來是對我們的時尚產業這個很大一個交流平台啊所以趕快去補破網嘛所以我的具體要求是一個月內召開一個公聽會你邀請他們一起來討論請聽他們的聲音然後共同來解決看怎麼樣可以做得更好可不可以"},{"start":577.57,"end":588.615,"text":"就是邀集業界或者是產學那邊一起來檢討我們台北時裝周的辦理方式或如果更進步這個我們會更注意一個月內辦可以嗎一個月內辦你要多少時間辦"},{"start":591.276,"end":609.967,"text":"能不能两个月内好不好两个月内你要办那跟我们讲我们一定会召开邀集他们来讨论或是什么就不一定是所谓的公听会好不好谢谢张其凯委员次郎请回我们接下来请陈培宇委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時19分）主席，請次長。"],["主席：好，有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你們文化部主辦臺北時裝週，這對我們臺灣的時裝、對很多很優秀的設計師非常重要，今年第8年了嘛！可是最近不只是網友，很多很優秀的設計師爆料，他們非常憤慨。今年臺北時裝週走秀的時候，竟然爆出說有用中國的成衣，他去淘寶買的，直接用貼牌印上自己的圖案，大家看一下這個圖案，左邊這個淘寶上面在賣的，你看一件人民幣26塊，臺幣應該一百多塊而已，這是走秀的照片，這是不是貼牌？直接買了淘寶上面一百多塊的衣服貼牌，竟然就可以在我們臺北時裝週這麼重要的場合上去走秀。更可惡的不是只有今年，他是累犯，去年2024年的秋冬也有出現，你看也是一樣，淘寶上面清清楚楚的一個圖案，貼牌以後就上了我們的臺北時裝週走秀。臺北時裝週對我們整個時尚產業多重要，對我們那些很努力、很優秀的設計師多麼重要，對於我們創造國際聲量多重要，怎麼出這麼大的問題？這不是蠻丟臉的一件事嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，針對這個案子，我們已經組成了委員會進行調查當中，如果調查結果屬實，有網友所指稱的現象，我們就會追究處理並取消他的資格。"],["張委員啓楷：來，看一下這傷害有多大，我們看下一張簡報，很優秀的設計師如果要去參加臺北時裝週，從設計、選材到打版、裁剪、印刷、刺繡，時間大概最起碼要用掉至少兩個禮拜以上，有時候要超過一個月，對不對？成本至少不要說兩千塊，有時候都要上萬塊，結果去淘寶買中國貨，買來以後就貼牌貼上去，一件成本可能是400塊，這傷害太大了吧？"],["李次長靜慧：是的，所以委員，您剛剛也提到……"],["張委員啓楷：對我們的創作、對我們掛上國際品牌傷害有多大？你們一直在講怎麼處理，來，我看一下你們的處理，面對這樣的累犯，對我們傷害這麼大。你們說，針對社群上指出本次臺北時裝週品牌秀的「某一品牌」，這個就是我現在最有意見的，很多有名的設計師來抗議，他是累犯，你為什麼連品牌都沒有公布？為什麼是寫「某一品牌」？"],["李次長靜慧：我想說是在調查中，如果調查結束後，我們一定會公布我們的處理方式，因為還在調查中。"],["張委員啓楷：你們還要調查多久？一個多月了，次長，你們調查一個多月了，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：其實創立臺北時裝週的目的，我們希望保護設計師……"],["張委員啓楷：很多設計師現在來吹哨、來抗議、來爆料，第一個，你明明知道是哪個廠牌的，為什麼你還要這樣保護它？第二個，我剛剛質詢前還請我辦公室上去看臺北時裝週官網的品牌資料庫，這個累犯的品牌還掛在那裡，你們這樣叫處理嗎？次長，是不是馬上把它拿下來？"],["李次長靜慧：好，我們整個在徵求廠商以及參與的廠商，誰能夠掛到聯合品牌上面都有一定的規則，我們會依照公告的要點處理，在它沒有被證明有實質違法或者是違反要點之前，我們會讓他……或者是說我們也來研議是不是在有疑慮的狀況下先下架。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，能夠上我們臺北時裝週走秀是一個很大的榮耀，對不對？他是累犯，他拿中國貨來貼牌，結果你們是這樣處理的！現在要追究的是什麼？除了要調查，你還要追究責任！"],["李次長靜慧：沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：當初你們甄選委員會到底是怎麼甄選的，我看了那個名單，很多都很有名、很專業，我們要予以肯定，所以要去查到底是什麼原因，是有人推薦他還是甄選過程出了什麼問題？而且是累犯兩次，要去查清楚，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好，我們一併討論、一併檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：而且對於新銳品牌，你們要提供20萬的補助，對不對？這個品牌有沒有被你們補助？有查到嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：其實像這一類品牌秀的部分，我們沒有提供補助，只是提供這樣一個平臺的機會，讓他們可以上臺走秀。"],["張委員啓楷：如果有補助就要去追回來。"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["張委員啓楷：因為主席已經站起來，我簡單做個結論，第一個，這個問題已經嚴重到很多有名的、專業的設計師，整個都炸鍋了，他們有做了很多的意見回饋，利用這個場合，我跟次長還有大家共享一下，比方他們說參加展會之後，效益是低落的，訂單詢問沒有預期那麼高；第二個，以後如果開始正式收費，有多少國內設計師願意去報名？你看本來大家是爭著要來，結果出現了這個問題，一顆老鼠屎壞了一整鍋粥，這個問題要趕快處理，好不好？大家對你們這個活動本來是非常非常重視的，這攸關整個時尚的產業、設計的產業，且已經辦到第8年了，大家都在拍手的時候，突然連兩年出現這個問題。","此外，他們回饋的意見還包括，曾經努力向文化部申請補助，可是發現申請到補助的人，永遠都是那些人；只是交差然後拿補助，幾乎很多都是內定的，對努力在國際曝光的臺灣品牌很不公平；當某媒體公司拿到標案的時候，其他陣營媒體不可能用力去報導；需要努力應酬才開始有機會去參加，可以加入這個群體。總之，這都有很多的意見，請去查清楚有沒有這些問題。"],["李次長靜慧：好，我們會來深刻檢討，而且我們一定用公平、公開的方式辦理臺北時裝週。"],["張委員啓楷：最後，我要提五個具體的訴求，第一個，以後請參展作品要跟主辦方簽署切結，即來參加我們的時裝週參展不能夠用現成單品、用成衣再去貼牌，可不可以？"],["李次長靜慧：好，這部分的訴求跟要求，我們都會研議看怎麼樣要求。"],["張委員啓楷：這一定要明定，而且要落實，以後他一定要簽這個切結，好不好？","第二個，參展產品的審查跟指導等過程要兼顧商業性，以期展期結束以後能夠收到訂單；避免為了消化預算，變成一個過場活動。","第三個，我們要鼓勵品牌多跟我們臺灣廠商合作，讓它可以根留臺灣。","第四個，未來展會結束以後的訂單、效益統計表要公開、透明，我今天沒有時間再談，雖然我有去調你們整個收益跟後來的訂單等資料，看起來這個要再加油，請你1個月內給我一份相關資料，好不好？就是你們辦完這8年以後，成效到底有多大，好不好？","最後一個最重要，這是一個行動方案，我們的設計師受了委屈了，因為他們非常努力，在國際上很多都有邀請我們很專業的設計師過去參展，可是卻出了這個事情，所以能不能在1個月內召開一個公聽會，邀請我們臺灣的設計師，共商我們臺北時裝週要如何改進，一方面傾聽他們的聲音，一方面把這些弊病趕快做一個檢討，然後傾聽他們的聲音？我們共同往前走，可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，辦理臺北時裝週跟我們辦理像臺北書展或者其他活動都是一樣的，都是希望這個產業能夠根留臺灣、能夠有商業性、能夠走出臺灣，都是一樣的目的。如果在過程中、在執行上有什麼缺點，我們都會持續檢討跟改進。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們目標是一樣的，對不對？我們也心疼我們的設計師，我們也要肯定他們的努力。事實上，你辦這個臺北時裝週，本來是讓我們的時尚產業有一個很大的交流平臺，所以請趕快去補破網。","最後，我的具體要求是1個月內召開一個公聽會，你邀集他們一起來討論，傾聽他們的聲音，然後共同解決，看怎麼樣可以做得更好，可不可以？"],["李次長靜慧：就是邀集業界或者是產學，一起檢討我們臺北時裝週的辦理方式，或者如何更進步，這個我們會做。"],["張委員啓楷：最重要的是傾聽他們的聲音，請你們1個月內辦理，可以嗎？你要多少時間辦理？"],["李次長靜慧：能不能兩個月內？"],["張委員啓楷：兩個月內你要辦，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好。我們一定會召開，邀集他們來討論或是什麼的，就不一定是所謂的公聽會，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：就是傾聽跟討論，OK，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162305","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162305","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56492093164a2df2ba333769fbc08eef2e99b36adcf2fc0175194885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:12:16 - 12:18:47","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:12:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:18:47+08:00","duration":391,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.24846875,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.825968750000001,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.559093750000002,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.79096875,"end":26.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.23346875,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.90346875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.89409375,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.986593750000004,"end":44.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.03659375,"end":46.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.02784375,"end":52.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.406593750000006,"end":55.532843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.19096875,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.713468750000004,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.45096875,"end":68.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.40409375,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.96034375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.76971875000001,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.05159375000001,"end":88.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.87784375000001,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.22721875,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.49221875,"end":100.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.53846875,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.55096875000001,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.94721875,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.12409375,"end":106.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.95096875,"end":107.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.44034375000001,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.22034375000001,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.83596875,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.32096875,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.44221875000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.41221875000001,"end":127.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.95596875,"end":129.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.45784375,"end":131.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.64721875,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.39784375000002,"end":137.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.60846875000001,"end":140.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.27471875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.74721875,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.28721875000002,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.60346875000002,"end":145.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.81409375,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.00784375,"end":148.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.44221875000002,"end":151.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.52596875,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.34846875000002,"end":156.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.10346875000002,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.61784375000002,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.22534375,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.25471875000002,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.33471875,"end":169.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.75971875000002,"end":171.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.99596875,"end":171.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.56534375,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.39596875,"end":176.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.17221875,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.13409375,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.87221875,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.71596875,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.21346875,"end":182.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.80409375000002,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.75284375,"end":187.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.59659375,"end":190.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.87034375000002,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.97971875000002,"end":194.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.62909375,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.43909375,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.50221875000003,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.40909375,"end":202.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.13846875000002,"end":204.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.89346875,"end":207.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.13346875000002,"end":209.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.17534375000002,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.58409375000002,"end":215.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.43596875,"end":222.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.61221875,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.00846875000002,"end":226.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.47659375,"end":227.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.52284375000002,"end":235.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.33159375000002,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.46221875,"end":238.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.45346875,"end":240.92159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.49534375000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.67659375000002,"end":242.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.72284375,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.05096875,"end":253.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.32471875000002,"end":257.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.48034375000003,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.79221875,"end":262.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.87596875,"end":265.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.96409375,"end":268.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.74846875000003,"end":269.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.40221875000003,"end":277.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.41784375000003,"end":280.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.37096875000003,"end":302.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.81909375000004,"end":303.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.94971875000005,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.06221875,"end":313.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.19284375,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.34034375000005,"end":318.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.55909375000005,"end":328.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.26659375,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.95659375,"end":343.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.24721875,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.36909375000005,"end":354.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.34659375,"end":361.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.83096875,"end":365.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.50534375,"end":370.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.69096875,"end":366.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.76659375,"end":380.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.27659375,"end":372.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.61284375,"end":384.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.60784375000003,"end":386.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.94096875,"end":388.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.07971875000004,"end":391.09221875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.474,"end":16.556,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":22.532,"end":43.431,"text":"市長好今天的專題報告是針對台灣世界遺產權利點推動的現況還有相關這個升登世界遺產的一些相關的一個專題報告我們看這個保護世界文化和自然遺產公約很明確的這個"},{"start":47.13,"end":72.602,"text":"列了相關的這些文化和自然遺產的這些定義我們看這個今天這專報裡面你們的報告裡面提到的這個附一18處台灣世界遺產權利點總共列了這個18個像馬祖戰地文化淡水紅樓城"},{"start":74.865,"end":102.64,"text":"這個還有台鐵舊山線,熱身療養院烏山頭水庫金門戰地文化,澎湖這些然後也有提到這個大屯山像卑南遺址,台東的台東的蘭嶼巨肉,台灣竹蘆楷這些都有類,它有個國家公園這個基本上你們都是"},{"start":103.991,"end":123.265,"text":"跟這個世界剛講的保護世界文化和自然遺產公約都有密切的符合嗎對 我們就是依照這個不論是文化遺產或是自然遺產它都有一些準則然後這些準則裡面我們有一個分數的評分來加總好 這個我都建議了"},{"start":129.171,"end":157.48,"text":"還是要因為要升登嘛希望能夠升登雖然我們還不是這個會員不是會員可以升登嗎不行但是我們要做到可以升登的那樣的一個要符合升登而且能夠被升登你有這樣的一個相關這些"},{"start":161.334,"end":185.79,"text":"遺產的話你再爭取才有更好的理由所以這個部分是所以我是希望往這方向去努力因為我目前這樣初步這樣看都很都是這個都要做沒有錯但是會不會是太最近幾十年的事情很多都是最近幾十年的"},{"start":187.69,"end":214.566,"text":"所以這個部分是一個我們需要去思考的何況我們要去連結的話台灣就原住民族南島以西的民族而言美國的這個專家都說南島以西的民族的發源地是在台灣如果我們能夠去連結這個"},{"start":216.482,"end":241.62,"text":"那機會會 是不是論述各方面爭取的理由會更多所以我們要去盡量 盡可能要跟南島乙系這個部分也要做都要做沒有錯 這個你們列的這18處也要做但是能夠更強化就是去做那個跟"},{"start":244.286,"end":269.189,"text":"南島民族這個有關的這些遺址或是這些遺產去把它連結可能會更有論述的基礎好不好這做的這樣的建議我們會注意的努力好這個談到這個以原住民族來講像花蓮的崇德遺址它就是一個很重要的像這個"},{"start":270.495,"end":279.893,"text":"水蓮移植,在花蓮授蜂箱,跟進樸那些都有關聯事實上,如果列這個"},{"start":281.394,"end":301.597,"text":"花蓮的考古遺址這都是民間做的有一部分是這個相關過去的文件會文化部也都有支持所以這裡面關花蓮就這麼多還有台東所以這個部分是一個需要文化部來勉勵希望文化部能夠加油的地方"},{"start":302.878,"end":318.314,"text":"好,這個無話資產保存法第三條,這特別提到無話資產,這些列了好幾項。好,這個另外就是無話資產保存法第十三條。"},{"start":320.543,"end":340.223,"text":"這個在第八屆的時候我在第八屆當立委的時候也特別修增加了這個原住民的條文原住民族文化資產首設事項及處理辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之列了這些規定所以"},{"start":341.725,"end":364.967,"text":"這個後來這個辦法也定了也定了當然這個111年是修正的之前是更早修正不過是一些一些比較細微的部分很重要就是說這個106年之後這個執行的一個狀況一些成果可以提出素面報告了"},{"start":366.51,"end":387.516,"text":"好 可以 我們在兩個月內跟委員提出報告提出書面的成果資料給本席所以這個部分是我們要繼續努力的地方所以這個部分這個是讓文化部能夠有更好的一個方向以上 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝曾天才委員好 次長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時12分）主席、各位委員。有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天的主題是針對臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，還有申登世界遺產相關的專題報告。我們看保護世界文化和自然遺產公約，很明確列了文化和自然遺產的定義，今天你們報告的「附錄一、18處臺灣世界遺產潛力點」，總共列了18個，像馬祖戰地文化、淡水紅毛城，還有臺鐵舊山線、樂生療養院、烏山頭水庫、金門戰地文化、澎湖等，也有提到大屯山，像臺東的卑南遺址、蘭嶼聚落、排灣族及魯凱族石板屋，這些都有列，包括太魯閣國家公園，基本上你們跟剛剛講的「保護世界文化和自然遺產公約」都有密切符合嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對，我們就是依照不論是文化遺產或是自然遺產，它都有一些準則，這些準則裡面，我們有一個分數評分加總。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我的建議啦，因為希望能夠申登，雖然我們還不是會員。不是會員可以申登嗎？不行。但是我們要做到可以申登、要符合申登，而且能夠被申登，有相關這些遺產的話，你再爭取才有更好的理由，所以這部分我希望往這個方向去。"],["李次長靜慧：是的，我們會依照這個標準。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為我目前初步這樣看，這個都要做，沒有錯，但是會不會是最近幾十年的事情？很多都是最近幾十年的，所以這個部分是我們需要去思考的。何況我們要去連結的話，臺灣就原住民南島語系的民族而言，美國的專家都說南島語系民族的發源地是在臺灣，如果我們能夠去連結這部分，是不是在論述各方面爭取的理由和機會會更多？所以我們儘量、儘可能跟南島語系這個部分，都要做，沒有錯啦，你們列了這18處也要做，但是要能夠更強化，就是去做跟南島民族有關的這些遺址或是這些遺產，去把它連結，可能會更有論述的基礎，好不好？我做這樣的建議。"],["李次長靜慧：我們會注意來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，談到原住民族，像花蓮的崇德遺址就是很重要的，像在花蓮壽豐鄉的水璉遺址跟靜浦那些都有關聯。事實上，如果列出花蓮的考古遺址，這都是民間做的，有一部分相關，過去的文建會、文化部也都有支持，這裡面光花蓮就這麼多，還有臺東，所以這部分需要文化部來勉勵，也希望文化部能夠加油。","有關文化資產保存法第三條特別提到文化資產，列了好幾項，另外就是文化資產保存法第十三條，我在當第8屆立委時，也特別增加了原住民的條文：「原住民族文化資產所涉以下事項，其處理辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之」，有列了這些規定，所以後來這個辦法也訂了，111年是修正，之前更早，這個修正不過是一些比較細微的部分，很重要。對於在106年之後執行的狀況和一些成果，可以提出書面報告嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，可以，我們在兩個月內跟委員提一個報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請提出書面成果資料給本席。這個部分是我們要繼續努力的地方，這是讓文化部能夠有更好的一個方向，以上，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162304","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162304","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564a3cd6a060798193233769fbc08eef2e99b36adcf2fc0175146d6c6507aabb8eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:05:06 - 12:12:04","影片長度":"00:06:58","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T12:05:06+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:12:04+08:00","duration":418,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.30034375,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.08846875,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.890968750000003,"end":33.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.67971875,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.642843750000004,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.439718750000004,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.27409375,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.66596875,"end":68.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.39159375,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.73721875000001,"end":89.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.15409375,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.72159375000001,"end":103.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.40846875000001,"end":95.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.85471875,"end":102.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.76596875000001,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.87409375,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.73096875000002,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.17346875,"end":151.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.53034375000001,"end":152.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":163.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.14471875,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.21534375000002,"end":202.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.12159375000002,"end":211.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.04846875,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.40159375000002,"end":226.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.88159375,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.19784375,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.18471875,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.72471875000002,"end":232.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.58096875,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.18284375000002,"end":250.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.86096875,"end":263.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.20909375,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.99346875000003,"end":273.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.23721875,"end":273.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.32159375000003,"end":273.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.38909375000003,"end":275.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.21596875,"end":275.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.38034375,"end":275.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.43096875000003,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.22409375,"end":281.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.37096875000003,"end":305.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.92409375,"end":308.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.45096875,"end":311.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.96534375000005,"end":317.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.83784375000005,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.27096875,"end":328.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.26659375,"end":328.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.54909375,"end":335.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.16409375,"end":337.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.79659375,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.16784375000003,"end":339.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.43784375,"end":340.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.19284375,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.73221875,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.09034375000005,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.23721875,"end":354.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.32159375000003,"end":355.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.72221875,"end":357.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.01721875000004,"end":371.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.30284375,"end":366.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.31971875000005,"end":366.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.70284375,"end":375.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.36471875,"end":379.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.19534375,"end":379.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.54971875,"end":386.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.09346875,"end":383.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.75534375,"end":388.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.83096875,"end":389.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.57346875,"end":391.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.12971875000005,"end":395.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.52596875,"end":397.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.66096875000005,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.13346875,"end":399.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":407.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.84909375,"end":408.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.49034375,"end":410.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.71784375000004,"end":411.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.96659375,"end":413.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.33346875,"end":415.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.66221875,"end":417.77159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.31,"end":5.211,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請次長好 有請次長你好次長好 接續一下剛剛飼料委員對於有形資產和無形資產的問題我想請問一下目前在台灣你們選定了有18項世界遺產的潛力點其中算三個半在我新北市在我們新北市裡面有樂生療養院"},{"start":32.043,"end":53.823,"text":"水晶酒礦業遺產淡水紅茅城及周遭歷史建築群我說一半是在大屯火山群因為這是新北台北包含這個國家公園那我想請教一下你們這個18個裡面你們有挑選了一個阿里山林業鐵道文化景觀把它列入就是說要去強力去推動的一個台灣的這個世界遺產的潛力點"},{"start":57.486,"end":66.404,"text":"你們這個要怎麼去強力的去推動它是代表台灣的一個世界的一個遺產的一個潛力點或是說它就是一個世界遺產"},{"start":68.489,"end":93.13,"text":"當然策略上面就是跟地方縣市政府就嘉義市嘉義縣還有地方的文史團體合作好來做進一步的一個文本的準備然後或是故事的一個敘述那另外國際的部分我們也會透過每一次在辦國際論壇的時候邀請了包括ICOMOS或是ICOM的這一些國際組織裡面的重要成員那當他們到台灣來參加國際會議的時候我們也會安排"},{"start":95.512,"end":111.849,"text":"他們去實地的去理解我們阿里山森林鐵路的一個保存的狀況跟它的文化價值大概是用這樣內外的我覺得這個東西就是說第一個在台灣你讓台灣人知道說這就是我們有可能是世界遺產情侶的但是我們也希望"},{"start":113.592,"end":133.405,"text":"讓全世界的人知道所以也要走出去我的意思是說我們要走出去那但是因為我們被中國打壓我們不是聯合國會員我們也不是這個UNESCO的會員我們都沒有辦法去登陸這個世界賽但怎麼去走出去我剛剛聽到就是說我們除了外交部的努力之外然後在交通部這部分呢觀光署的部分呢"},{"start":133.965,"end":151.527,"text":"有把這個我們的這個世界遺產潛力點有把它跟大家講說你來台灣來觀光那你可以來看我們的這一個這個世界遺產的潛力點包含這個有形的或是無形的我們有在做這方面的跟交通部觀光署的做一個合作嗎"},{"start":153.851,"end":181.801,"text":"18個潛力點並沒有每一個可是至少阿里山林業鐵路這個事情是有跟觀光署還有林業署的他們的保存處是有一起在合作的可是我們既然列了18個我們當然希望說這18個都讓外國的朋友們知道說這個是我們的世界遺產潛力點我們也希望說來到台灣的時候能夠到我們這些這個潛力點去走走去看一看所以應該不是只有"},{"start":182.481,"end":197.31,"text":"在阿里山 竟然列了18個嘛我也很希望說 來到我們這個新北市啊來到這個紅毛城啊 來到這個樂生養養院啊或是來到這個我們的這個水晶酒啊等等"},{"start":198.231,"end":219.174,"text":"那你們這方面的宣傳我這樣聽起來那就是沒有跟觀光署配合的很好啊這部分我們再來努力跟觀光署聯繫看其他的這17處怎麼樣在觀光署的部分可以做一個聯合的宣傳這我們會努力對啊我覺得這方面要加強嘛就是外交是一部分讓世界看見台灣但是我們也希望說觀光客來到這邊的時候"},{"start":220.535,"end":249.174,"text":"能夠去參觀我們這些這個世界遺產潛力點嗎我覺得這部分看你們要怎麼去做那再給本席一個說明跟報告好嗎那另外一個就是說我是希望說他在台灣他不是就是說我們設一個潛力點就在那邊然後呢他就是在那邊你們有沒有一些還是說這是地方政府的就是跟他們協助配合或是說指導就是說讓這些點"},{"start":250.895,"end":266.392,"text":"能夠有更多的 我們的 比如說我們的下一代我們的孩子們能夠來親近 能夠知道說為什麼這個地方是設路 這個會列為我們這個世界遺產的潛力點它的特殊的地理環境 人文環境在哪裡 有沒有這方面的一些協助"},{"start":267.205,"end":285.905,"text":"我們一直持續在補助各縣市主管機關,能夠做一些教育推廣的計畫我們每一年,所以這個都有嗎?有,都有你新北市的計畫給我看一下好嗎?我印象中,在當市議員的時候,感受不到有這方面關於我們這一個世界遺產的活化"},{"start":288.307,"end":310.818,"text":"那這方面麻煩給我一下資料那最後一個我再問就是說你們現在希望就是說這些潛力點能夠完成這個文本鑽擬的一個報告那我看了一下水晶酒礦業遺產還有大屯山群這兩處的這個潛力點都還沒有完成這個文本鑽擬的程序是不是這個是地方政府的問題嗎"},{"start":312.751,"end":337.147,"text":"因為它最主要像水晶酒或是大屯山它都跨了主管機關大屯山的話主要還是內政部國家公園署還有陽明山的國家管理處然後還有一部分也是在台北市政府那誰要來寫大屯山依照我們的規定的話就是他們要聯合應該是由內政部這邊來主題啦那內政部沒有寫喔"},{"start":339.514,"end":351.08,"text":"已經有來申請了哪時候?你們有規定的期限嗎?過去一直沒有來申請那它列入我們的世界遺產潛力點多久了?15年以上了15年以上了沒有來寫"},{"start":358.469,"end":374.936,"text":"所以我們最近就是鼓勵協調以後啊我們就最近的推動會我們特別就是有請各縣市這些主管機關啊都來找這方面的努力所以他們已經提計畫來了我們會來協助補助他們去進行那水晶酒呢他就在新北市應該沒有跨什麼其他單位啊"},{"start":375.676,"end":395.073,"text":"所以目前他已經完成了一個研究資料的盤點可是他因為還得提出一個所謂的再生計畫這部分是他正在申請當中所以我們會給他經費上面補助嗎是的有給他補助他動作還這麼慢那有沒有一個期限"},{"start":396.69,"end":417.52,"text":"這沒有 鼓勵而已我是希望說 既然已經被列入了我想新北市他也很樂意說我們在新北市有被列入這個潛力點因為我們中央也有補助那還是要督促一下這個報告能夠趕快交出來 好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝市長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時5分）謝謝主席。請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。接續剛剛思瑤委員對於有形資產跟無形資產的問題，我想請問一下，目前在臺灣你們選定了18項世界遺產潛力點，其中算三個半在新北市，在新北市裡面的有樂生療養院、水金九礦業遺產、淡水紅毛城及其周遭歷史建築群，我說一半是在大屯火山群，因為這個是跨新北、臺北，包含國家公園。我想請教一下，這18個裡面你們挑選了阿里山林業鐵道文化景觀，把它列入要強力推動的臺灣世界遺產潛力點，你們要怎麼強力推動它是代表臺灣的世界遺產潛力點？或是它就是一個世界遺產？"],["李次長靜慧：當然策略上就是跟地方縣市政府合作，即嘉義市、嘉義縣還有地方的文史團體，來做進一步的文本準備或是故事的敘述。另外，國際的部分，我們也會透過每一次辦國際論壇，邀請包括ICOMOS或是ICOM這一些國際組織裡面的重要成員，當他們到臺灣參加國際會議的時候，我們也會安排他們實地理解阿里山森林鐵路的保存狀況跟文化價值，大概是用這樣內外……"],["李委員坤城：我覺得這個東西就是，第一個、在臺灣要讓臺灣人知道，這有可能是世界遺產潛力點，但是我們也希望讓全世界的人知道，所以也要走出去。我的意思是我們要走出去，因為我們被中國打壓，我們不是聯合國委員，也不是UNESCO的委員，所以沒辦法登錄世界遺產，但怎麼走出去？我剛才聽到的是，除了外交部的努力之外，交通部觀光署有把我們的世界遺產潛力點跟大家說，你來臺灣觀光，可以來看我們的世界遺產潛力點，包含有形的或無形的，你們在這方面有跟交通部觀光署合作嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：18個潛力點並沒有每一個都這麼做，可是至少阿里山林業鐵路有跟觀光署還有林業署一起合作。"],["李委員坤城：既然列了18個，我們當然希望讓外國的朋友們知道，這18個是我們的世界遺產潛力點，也希望他們來到臺灣的時候，能夠到這些潛力點去走走、看看，所以應該不是只有阿里山。既然列了18個，我也很希望他們來新北市的紅毛城、樂生療養院或是水金九等等，這樣聽起來你們在這方面的宣傳就是沒有跟觀光署配合得很好。"],["李次長靜慧：這部分我們再來努力跟觀光署聯繫，看其他17處觀光署可以怎麼聯合宣傳，我們會努力。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得這方面要加強，讓世界看見臺灣，外交是一部分，但是我們也希望觀光客來到這邊的時候，能夠去參觀這些世界遺產潛力點，這部分看你們要怎麼去做，再給本席說明跟報告，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：沒有問題。"],["李委員坤城：另外一個，我希望在臺灣不是我們就設一個潛力點在那邊，然後它就是在那邊，你們有沒有跟一些地方政府協助、配合或是指導，讓這些點能夠有更多的比如我們的下一代、孩子們來親近？能夠知道為什麼這個地方會列為世界遺產潛力點，它的地理環境、人文環境特殊在哪裡，有沒有這方面的一些協助？"],["李次長靜慧：有，我們一直持續在補助各縣市主管機關能夠做一些教育推廣的計畫，所以每一年……"],["李委員坤城：這個都有嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：有，都有。"],["李委員坤城：新北市的計畫給我看一下，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["李委員坤城：我印象中，我在當市議員的時候感受不到有關世界遺產活化，麻煩給我這方面的資料。"],["李次長靜慧：沒有問題。"],["李委員坤城：我再問最後一個，你們現在希望這些潛力點能夠完成文本撰擬的報告，我看了一下水金九礦業遺產還有大屯山群這兩處潛力點，是不是都還沒有完成文本撰擬的程序？這個是地方政府的問題嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：不是。因為最主要像水金九或者大屯山都是跨主管機關，大屯山主要是內政部國家公園署、陽明山國家管理處，還有一部分也是在臺北市政府。"],["李委員坤城：那誰要來寫？"],["李次長靜慧：依照我們的規定，就是他們要聯合，應該是由內政部來主提。"],["李委員坤城：內政部沒有寫嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：已經有來申請了。"],["李委員坤城：哪時候？你們有規定期限嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：過去一直沒有來申請。"],["李委員坤城：它列入世界遺產潛力點多久了？"],["陳局長濟民：15年以上。"],["李委員坤城：15年以上都沒有來寫？"],["陳局長濟民：是，我們在最近的推動會鼓勵協調以後，特別請各縣市的這些主管機關朝這方面努力，所以他們已經提計畫來了，我們會協助、補助他們去進行。"],["李委員坤城：水金九就在新北市，應該沒有跨什麼其他單位啊？"],["李次長靜慧：對，所以目前他已經完成了研究資料的盤點，可是還得提出所謂的再生計畫，這部分正在申請當中，我們會來處理。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們會給他經費上的補助嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["李委員坤城：有給他補助，他動作還這麼慢！有沒有期限？沒有？鼓勵而已？"],["李次長靜慧：鼓勵而已。對，我們並沒有要求機關……"],["李委員坤城：既然已經被列入了，我想新北市很樂意有被列入潛力點，中央也有補助，還是要督促一下，讓這個報告能夠趕快交出來，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。次長，請回。","接下來請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162302","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162302","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56470fc66548ecfe8b033769fbc08eef2e99b36adcf2fc017513c0b16c68b9325bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:54:23 - 12:05:00","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:54:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T12:05:00+08:00","duration":637,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.27971875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.29221875,"end":2.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.076593750000001,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.42159375,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.62346875,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.72971875,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":146.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.99534375000002,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.77534375000002,"end":160.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.00159375,"end":175.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.83471875,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.67346875,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.75471875000002,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.68971875,"end":270.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.95909375,"end":274.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.09346875,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.01909375,"end":307.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.52284375,"end":366.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.67409375,"end":368.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.40784375000004,"end":369.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.42471875,"end":388.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.31346875,"end":379.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.63346875,"end":384.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.01721875000004,"end":385.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.03784375000004,"end":390.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.15971875,"end":430.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.39409375,"end":431.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.91284375000004,"end":441.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.44721875000005,"end":461.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.89971875000003,"end":513.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.56659375,"end":518.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.86971875,"end":522.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.13909375,"end":531.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.3359687500001,"end":534.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.1415937500001,"end":535.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.2722187500001,"end":567.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.0434687500001,"end":585.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.9753437500001,"end":574.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.41784375,"end":576.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.0378437500001,"end":577.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.0365937500001,"end":630.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3740937499999,"end":586.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.6709687499999,"end":631.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.8647187500001,"end":636.9778437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":12.114,"text":"回娘家 四分鐘回娘家應該多看一下女兒啊四分鐘太短了 謝謝朝偉好 請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":15.923,"end":36.432,"text":"首先非常非常感谢易经委员赵伟今天排的这个专案报告我相信易经委员一路也关心也知道我们从上一届开始在教文会就开始倡议了台湾的遗产就是世界的遗产深列世界遗产然后努力闯关加入UNESCO这是我们长城的行动下一页"},{"start":37.832,"end":59.833,"text":"私謠是這個議題從上一屆開始催生倡議所以我2022年5月25號第一槍來質詢當時的文化部長李永德那李部長say yes所以呢就重組了重新啟動了這個推動會因為在阿扁總統任內陳玉秀文件會前主委開始"},{"start":61.941,"end":86.283,"text":"運作的這個委員會其實已經Pending暫緩一段時間所以在2022年541的要求之下重啟這個推動會我謝謝文化部重新動起來而2023年我持續的質詢陳建仁前院長以及當時的文化部長變成史哲了我謝謝史哲部長他不只Say Yes他還同步除了"},{"start":87.083,"end":111.159,"text":"有形文化遗产的委员会他还新设了一个非物质文化遗产的委员会也就是有形无形我们要双轨并进一直到新的届期行政院长换成了卓龙泰然后李远李部长上任之后我们更进一步的召开了两个推动会而且有高度的共识有形文化遗产的部分以阿里山的森林铁路"},{"start":117.063,"end":145.822,"text":"也列定了12個非夷來納入潛力推動而我也不放棄我一直說文化跟外交兩個部要強強聯手所以我再一次到外交委員會質詢外交部長林佳龍他也同意要一起納入外交部的力量讓文化部不會孤軍奮戰所以一路走來重啟深列世界文化一戰我們是ING進行式下一頁"},{"start":147.045,"end":174.821,"text":"而現在是最好的時機我當時在2022重啟倡議的時候那時候國際對於台灣的支持還沒有現在這個當下那麼的強大所以搭配著其實我們現在沒有辦法升列是因為我們不是聯合國的成員也不是締約國嘛所以說這當然是我們眼前政治的困難也是中國一再打壓之下我們的"},{"start":176.042,"end":187.272,"text":"受壓力受阻可是當聯合國這麼多國家越來越多國家甚至美國在安理會裡頭鬥地台灣發聲要重新針對2758號決議為台灣平反所以鍛煉了很久的政治議題我們要用文化來縫合現在就是最好的時機下頁"},{"start":200.524,"end":216.808,"text":"所以說萬事俱備只欠東風我們的主觀條件做好準備客觀的國際情勢有利於我們的時候我們就能夠因為我們Ready了所以我一直在倡議台灣即使不是聯合國的會員可是我們參與國際組織跟聯合國的各個轄下機構我們都不遺餘力"},{"start":224.87,"end":248.66,"text":"世界衛生組織每年都在倡議國際民航組織聯合國氣候變化綱要公約我們即便不是聯合國成員我們也宣示了我們跟進氣候變化公約我們的所有的國際法規國內法我們來推動還包括要加入國際刑警組織所以文化不是outside的整個前因後果"},{"start":249.48,"end":273.867,"text":"UNESCO 我們要努力 我們也可以努力而現在是最好的時機 夏業文化就是最好的外交 更是最強的國防我認為我們的步驟就是用深列世界文化遺產讓世界看到台灣做好功課後面再逐步地向UNESCO來叩關好 這是我們共同的策略跟願景"},{"start":275.362,"end":291.155,"text":"這有很多的好處我都不再贅述了強化文化保存推動文化外交落實遺產的教育實踐聯合國SDGS的精神深化台灣的文化認同而且可以促進文化觀光我們都可以不落人後好 下來"},{"start":292.176,"end":304.948,"text":"重點來了現在有形跟無形我們要雙軌並進而且文化跟外交部強強聯手就是最好的一個安排跟籌備下一頁我就問具體的進展我看到你們有進展"},{"start":308.621,"end":318.789,"text":"在有形文化遺產的部分我們開了第五屆第二次會議那時候就訂定說我們要透過在國外設置一個文化據點譬如說在法國巴黎讓我們可以透過這個文化據點跟我們強化內部的整備工作去建立國際的人脈跟NGO跟UNESCO的相關外圍組織來串聯然後跨部會一起來下一頁"},{"start":333.72,"end":350.548,"text":"而這個文化據點在巴黎非常有意義因為UNESCO總部就在巴黎我們的台法文化獎是現在我們跟世界串聯獎項辦得最佳的我們有很好的文化歷史跟法國包括我們"},{"start":351.368,"end":367.946,"text":"去年的巴黎文化奧運台灣的文化奧運受到巴黎法國人很高的推崇所以我們是不是可以要設一個這個國際的據點而他就設在巴黎這件事情好像沒有下文了耶 市長"},{"start":369.631,"end":389.462,"text":"跟委員報告的確這個決議在巴黎社據點就是去年十月份然後小野部長第一次主持這個推動會吳志忠政策也提出來的他提出這個建議所以我們原本就是希望在今年開始去現在呢因為我們今年一一四年都被刪了交流司的預算"},{"start":391.209,"end":405.556,"text":"我们希望就让台湾的国人来看看文化外交就因为蓝白二侃二山预算我们不只要在巴黎设一个国际文化的据点来向UNESCO扣关来深列世界文化遗产"},{"start":406.596,"end":429.69,"text":"都因為沒有預算沒有辦法進行但是我們如果預算得宜我們還是這個計畫還是要持續的規劃好很好繼續努力下一頁第二個我要問的是外交部必須配合協助你們去串聯NGO跟UNESCO的外圍組織下一頁是不是同樣也因為你們的"},{"start":430.526,"end":458.619,"text":"旅費國際的媒宣旅費國際交流的廢物都被刪了也受了影響是不是這樣是的那計劃都在只是沒錢對Keep計劃我們想辦法想方設法不能讓計劃因為預算斷垂而整個終止好嗎所以那個計劃我認為也是必要的我們強化用外圍組織的力量來前進給UNESCO更大的助力也是給他們壓力好"},{"start":460.02,"end":485.585,"text":"那最後一個下一個有形文化遺產我非常同意台灣不能再走回過去我們有18個遺遺潛力點18個都來或者是說地方政府不斷的來提報我們在深列世界文化遺產有形或文化跟無形都應當是用國家對之力來打世界盃所以應當是選出最強的所以現在優先選阿里山"},{"start":486.505,"end":513.461,"text":"的鐵道文化景觀我非常同意當然我像我的選區有這個大屯火山的這個自然景觀我也很希望但是我認為這是不是把它當作個人的政績而是這是國家對所以有形文化遺產的部分繼續來推動以阿里山的這個方案無形文化遺產我知道我們有很多原住民的這個塞夏乃琳紀這些東西持續做可是無形文化遺產我們最有潛力的就是實文化"},{"start":514.639,"end":527.355,"text":"我們看看日本的和食 韓國的泡菜法國的法棍麵包這個義大利的披薩都因為食文化食文化不是只有食物這麼簡單它是背後的歷史脈絡 社會"},{"start":532.381,"end":551.196,"text":"的整個story還有記憶傳承食物的烹煮各種的方式所以說以食文化來深列非物質文化遺產台灣很有潛力我們是美食的國家譬如說你讓夜市的美食變成一整個大團隊戰的概念"},{"start":552.017,"end":567.086,"text":"我相信你們也有在這個準備導入國際準則就學習別人怎麼去深列的然後也在這個部分還是可以接受地方提報但是是打世界盃是國家隊你們時文化的部分現在進展到哪裡了"},{"start":568.368,"end":585.047,"text":"石文化的部分我們在113年的時候有先委託了北藝大來做一個石文化那現在好像計畫結案了吧對 4月8號我們這個案子結案了那我們就會把這個成果報告提到我們下一次的"},{"start":585.607,"end":608.272,"text":"討論會那是不是也可以給我這樣一個期末報告黃正燕教授是我的老師是我博士班老師而且我非常期待這個報告我真的期待我們就是很難的路我們要做好準備主觀條件做足準備萬事俱備只欠東風當國際的氛圍起來支持台灣的力道大了我們就在那個時候可以大量的迸發我們的所有的準備工作"},{"start":611.693,"end":616.515,"text":"好嗎不要放棄不要放棄我們可以做到的也請在野黨的委員不要砍預算不要砍預算不要砍預算我們用文化讓世界認識台灣讓世界跟台灣交朋友在野黨還要再惡砍文化預算嗎好我們繼續加油謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝委員的支持好謝謝吳思耀委員來次郎請回我們接下來請李坤昌"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時54分）回娘家，應該多看一下女兒，4分鐘太短了。","謝謝召委。請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：吳委員好！"],["吳委員思瑤：首先非常、非常感謝宜瑾召委今天安排這個專案報告，我相信宜瑾委員一路也關心，也知道我們從上一屆在教文會就開始倡議，臺灣的遺產就是世界的遺產，申列世界遺產，努力闖關，加入UNESCO，這是我們長程的行動。","思瑤是從上一屆開始催生、倡議這個議題。我2022年5月25日第一槍來質詢當時的文化部長李永得，李部長say yes，所以就重新啟動了這個推動會，因為在阿扁總統任內，前文建會主委陳郁秀開始運作的這個推動會其實已經pending（暫緩）一段時間，2022年在吳思瑤的要求之下，重啟這個推動會，我謝謝文化部重新動起來。2023年我持續質詢陳建仁前院長以及當時的文化部長史哲，我謝謝史哲部長，他不只say yes，除了有形文化遺產的推動會，他還同步新設了一個非物質文化遺產的推動會，也就是有形無形要雙軌並進。一直到新的屆期，行政院長換成了卓榮泰，李遠部長上任之後，更進一步召開了兩個推動會，而且有高度的共識。有形文化遺產的部分，以阿里山森林鐵路暨鐵道文化景觀優先推動；非物質文化遺產的部分，當時也列定了12個非遺，納入潛力推動。我也不放棄，我一直說，文化與外交兩個部要強強聯手，所以我再一次到外交委員會質詢外交部長林佳龍，他也同意要一起納入外交部的力量，讓文化部不會孤軍奮戰。所以一路走來，重啟申列世界文化遺產，我們是ING進行式。","而現在是最好的時機，我在2022當時重啟倡議的時候，國際對於臺灣的支持還沒有現在這個當下那麼的強大，所以可以搭配著。其實我們現在沒有辦法申列，是因為我們不是聯合國的成員，也不是締約國，這當然是我們眼前的政治困難，也是中國一再打壓之下，讓我們受阻，可是當聯合國這麼多國家、越來越多國家表態支持臺灣，甚至美國在安理會裡頭都替臺灣發聲，說要重新針對2758號決議為臺灣平反。斷鏈了很久的政治議題，我們要用文化來縫合，現在就是最好的時機。萬事俱備，只欠東風，當我們的主觀條件做好準備，客觀的國際情勢有利於我們的時候，我們就能夠進行，因為我們ready了。我一直在倡議臺灣即使不是聯合國的會員，可是參與國際組織及聯合國各個轄下機構，我們都不遺餘力，包括世界衛生組織，我們每年都在倡議，以及國際民航組織、聯合國氣候變化綱要公約，即便不是聯合國成員，我們也宣示跟進氣候變化綱要公約，將所有國際法規國內法化，我們來推動，還包括要加入國際刑警組織。文化不是outsider，加入UNESCO，我們要努力，我們也可以努力，而現在是最好的時機！","文化就是最好的外交，更是最強的國防。我認為我們的步驟就是先申列世界文化遺產，讓世界看到臺灣做好功課了，後面再逐步向UNESCO叩關，這是我們共同的策略及願景。這有很多的好處，我都不再贅述了，包括強化文化保存、推動文化外交、落實遺產教育、實踐聯合國SDGs的精神、深化臺灣的文化認同，而且可以促進文化觀光，我們都可以不落人後。","重點來了，現在有形與無形要雙軌並進，而且文化部與外交部要強強強聯手，這是最好的安排及籌備。我就問具體的進展，我看到你們有進展，在有形文化遺產的部分，第5屆第2次會議那時候就訂定我們要在國外設置一個文化據點，譬如在法國巴黎，讓我們可以透過這個文化據點，強化我們內部的整備工作，去建立國際的人脈，跟NGO、跟UNESCO的相關外圍組織串聯，然後跨部會一起來。這個文化據點在巴黎非常有意義，因為UNESCO總部就在巴黎，臺法文化獎是現在我們跟世界串聯獎項辦得最「齊勻」的，我們和法國文化交流有很好的利基，還包括去年的巴黎文化奧運，當時臺灣的文化奧運受到法國巴黎人很高的推崇。所以我們是不是要設一個國際據點，而且就設在巴黎？這件事情好像沒有下文了，次長。"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，的確在巴黎設據點這個決議，是去年10月小野部長第一次主持這個推動會，吳志中政次代表……"],["吳委員思瑤：提出來的。"],["李次長靜慧：他提出這個建議，我們原本就是希望在今年開始去……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，原本，現在呢？"],["李次長靜慧：對，可是因為我們今年（114年）……"],["吳委員思瑤：預算都被刪了。"],["李次長靜慧：交流司的預算。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們就讓臺灣的國人看看，文化外交就因為藍白惡砍、惡刪預算，我們原本要在巴黎設一個國際文化的據點，向UNESCO叩關，申列世界文化遺產，都因為沒有預算，沒有辦法進行。但是我們如果預算得宜，這個計畫還是要持續規劃。"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，很好，繼續努力！","第二個，我要問的是外交部必須配合協助你們去串聯NGO及UNESCO的外圍組織，是不是同樣也因為你們的國際旅費、媒宣、國際交流的費用都被刪而受到影響？是不是這樣？"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：計畫都在，只是沒錢。"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：keep計畫，我們想辦法、想方設法，不能讓計畫因為預算斷炊而整個終止，好嗎？那個計畫我認為也是必要的，我們強化鏈結外圍組織，用外圍組織的力量前進，給UNESCO更大的助力，也是給他們壓力。","下一個，有形文化遺產，我非常同意臺灣不能再走回過去，我們有18個潛力點，18個都來，或者是地方政府不斷來提報，我們申列世界文化遺產有形文化及無形文化都應當是用國家隊之力來打世界盃，所以應當是選出最強的。現在是優先選阿里山的鐵道文化景觀，我非常同意，當然像我的選區有大屯火山的自然景觀區，我也很希望可以，但是我認為不是把這個當作個人的政績，而是這是國家隊，所以有形文化遺產的部分繼續推動，以阿里山的這個方案。","無形文化遺產，我知道我們有很多，像原住民的賽夏族矮靈祭這些東西，持續做，可是我們最有潛力的就是食文化。我們看看日本的和食、韓國的泡菜、法國的長棍麵包、義大利的披薩都因為食文化列為非遺。食文化不是只有食物這麼簡單，它有背後的歷史脈絡、整個社會的story，還有記憶傳承、食物烹煮的各種方式，所以以食文化申列非物質文化遺產，臺灣很有潛力，因為我們是美食的國家，譬如讓夜市的美食變成打團隊戰的概念。我相信你們也有在做這個準備，導入國際準則，學習別人怎麼去申列的。這個部分還是可以接受地方提報，但是是打世界盃，是國家隊。食文化的部分，現在你們進展到哪裡了？"],["李次長靜慧：食文化的部分，我們在113年有先委託了北藝大來做一個食文化……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，我知道黃貞燕教授。"],["李次長靜慧：對，這部分……"],["吳委員思瑤：現在計畫好像結案了吧？"],["李次長靜慧：對，4月8號這個案子結案了，我們會把成果報告提到我們下一次的討論會。"],["吳委員思瑤：是不是也可以給我期末報告？黃貞燕教授是我的老師，是我的博士班老師。"],["李次長靜慧：OK，沒問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且我非常期待這個報告，我真的期待。很難的路，我們要做好準備，主觀條件做足準備，萬事俱備只欠東風。當國際的氛圍起來，支持臺灣的力道大了，我們就在那個時候可以大量迸發所有的準備工作，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：不要放棄！我們可以做到的，也請在野黨的委員不要砍預算！我們用文化讓世界認識臺灣，讓世界跟臺灣交朋友，在野黨還要再惡砍文化預算嗎？我們繼續加油，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，謝謝委員的支持。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。次長，請回。","接下來請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5641b636b3114d223dc33769fbc08eef2e946063d171e8badfa8b3fff8fa9bcc6865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"11:43:21 - 11:54:18","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:43:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:54:18+08:00","duration":657,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.34284375,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.99596875,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.26971875000001,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.30346875000001,"end":155.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.42846875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.03159375,"end":159.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.05659375000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.13221875000002,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.14909375000002,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.16596875000002,"end":164.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.03471875000002,"end":165.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.22034375,"end":304.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.39659375,"end":327.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.72659375,"end":328.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.90784375000004,"end":343.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.85909375,"end":369.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.52346875,"end":360.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.85221875,"end":362.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.48909375,"end":363.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.49659375000005,"end":369.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.25596875,"end":413.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.72159375,"end":414.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.95346875,"end":436.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.58721875000003,"end":441.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.68346875000003,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.18534375,"end":454.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.03596875000005,"end":455.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.04846875000004,"end":455.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.08221875000004,"end":478.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.00659375000004,"end":496.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.44721875000005,"end":495.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.67909375000005,"end":505.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.97721875,"end":506.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.01096875,"end":506.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.44971875000005,"end":506.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.51721875000004,"end":532.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.12909375,"end":538.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.9678437499999,"end":548.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.91596875,"end":587.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.3015937499999,"end":593.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.72284375,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.0265937500001,"end":621.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.66909375,"end":615.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.00971875,"end":629.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.87346875,"end":633.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.0078437500001,"end":642.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.0234687500001,"end":652.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.1653437500001,"end":653.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.5365937500001,"end":652.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.5278437500001,"end":656.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.5359687499999,"end":657.0759687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.209,"end":23.502,"text":"我想我們的歷史建物古蹟遺址等文化資產都具有公共財的一個屬性是台灣所有人民共同的瑰寶我相信你認同嘛那我們在前年我們看到文資法的修正我們配合大法官813號解釋歷史建築土地為第三人所有"},{"start":24.202,"end":48.043,"text":"為以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償不符憲法第15條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲所以本院修法保障歷史建築及紀念建築座落土地的所有權人得申請容積以轉及享有免徵地價稅房屋稅的優惠我想這個次長都知道嘛 對嗎 好"},{"start":49.424,"end":60.4,"text":"但是同樣在文化資產的保存針對開發單位不管是公司部門在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候您知道清楚是怎麼樣處理嗎"},{"start":65.941,"end":85.45,"text":"所以處理的流程程序您很清楚 對嗎好 那我們就繼續來討論根據文化資產保存法第57條第二款規定如果營建工程或者是開發行為發現考古遺址時就必須要停止工程並且要通報我們地方的主管機關"},{"start":86.63,"end":103.956,"text":"那主管機關就應該要立即的進行調查跟審議而且要採取相關的措施同時在完成審議之前開發單位是不得復工的這也沒有錯 對嗎好 那我們審議其實需要有的時候需要蠻長一段時間的那不管是公司部門的開發計畫開發單位都要去承擔這個停工的相關成本"},{"start":109.418,"end":134.036,"text":"我想請教一下次長我們目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話我們國家是不是有任何的補償相關措施報告委員 目前沒有好 目前沒有但是依照現行法規來看如果開發單位挖到了遺址不僅他必須要獨自去承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外"},{"start":134.796,"end":155.109,"text":"如果他現在要繼續開發復工還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫那麼再依照審議的面積來先行視覺還有保存那這當中其實除了耗費很多時間相關的成本之外還有很多的費用而這一切都必須由開發單位來自行承擔這些您都知道嗎"},{"start":156.779,"end":173.53,"text":"對 目前的狀況是這樣子所以您清楚嗎其實我們的主要目的是希望說我瞭解 我們繼續往下看所以台積電其實在這個南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝結果挖到遺址他必須停工這個應該"},{"start":175.391,"end":201.894,"text":"這個次長也曉得那在本席的選區裡面桃園捷運綠線在109年的時候在G07站也挖到了考古遺址所以呢也造成了停工然後延宕了一個工程的進度其實還蠻嚴重的那直到上一週文資的審查才完成那今年我們看到在桃園一樣我們桃園的台鐵新站桃園新站好不容易才動工馬上又挖到了考古遺址"},{"start":203.175,"end":222.774,"text":"那其中這個保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資來承擔的但是這樣的問題其實不斷在發生除了剛剛本席舉的三個例子之外我們其實很難保未來其實在相關的重大的這些公司的這些建設重大的國家建設都會發生這樣的一個問題所以我想今天拿出來討論我們必須要提到說"},{"start":224.396,"end":241.21,"text":"這個相關的這些考古遺址我們剛剛有提到是全民的公共財而且我們要知道如果說剛好沒有這個工程沒有開發單位的開發挖掘恐怕這些文物跟遺址會沒有重建天子的一天所以我想其實政府要去想一想就是說"},{"start":242.531,"end":251.218,"text":"發現這樣的一個狀況的時候我們是不是應該有一些相關的這些補償的一個方式有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做會比較好因為這個問題它會一直都存在那我們要看如果說開發的行為挖到了這個寶可是它沒有通寶"},{"start":257.162,"end":274.048,"text":"甚至於在我們不知道或者知道的情況之下文化資產去受損了那接著他也要處罰那是不是有一點好像我們這個有功沒有賞結果打破還要賠所以我想這樣是有點不合理的也不利於未來遺址的保存那再來也跟次長再來談到我想全國的商業總會也曾經提出過"},{"start":278.969,"end":302.906,"text":"這個有開發單位也跟他們陳情挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用其實有的時候這是沒有行情的一個天價沒有一個行情在那目前文化部針對剛剛相關的這些問題我想待會請市長解答一下並且提出來文化部現在有沒有去研議來建立相關的評估人才庫來供開發單位做參考"},{"start":306.534,"end":325.57,"text":"市長 依序回答一下委員的一個提問目前對開發單位來講如果他挖到有這些考古遺址的時候的確目前的法令上就是要求停工然後要等審議委員會那這中間沒有任何的補償機制那為什麼不給補償機制這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者有討論過那專家學者會"},{"start":329.794,"end":342.369,"text":"擔憂說如果有了補償機制會讓任何開發單位就無後顧之憂的就隨便開發就變相鼓勵開發的一個情形所以這是他們憂慮的建議我們不要有補償機制可是委員剛剛說到的"},{"start":343.951,"end":358.681,"text":"如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話它就一直被埋在地底下可能也永無見天日那這是另外一種議題另外一種思考模式或許我們在這個方向上我們也會再來跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者來進一步討論這是第一個那剛剛講到這個"},{"start":362.404,"end":370.31,"text":"市挖掘人才戶這個部分我們可以來去建立一個建議名單我想這兩個問題都非常重要我希望會後市長文化部這邊好好討論一下接下來我再提到我想我國當前世界遺產的潛力點當中"},{"start":379.657,"end":404.807,"text":"有包含了这个水晶酒矿业遗址还有这个悲难遗址这个都兰山那这个地面下其实可能还有一些这个极具潜力的遗址如果按照现在的制度下去其实我们很担忧未来我们具有潜力的遗址会不会因此而被这个掩埋掉所以我想我们可以就是参考各专家学者过去的我们的经验碰到的困难那我希望我们回去想一想之后"},{"start":405.347,"end":433.504,"text":"那能够在什么样的时间之内我想把这个报告来给我们那不晓得次长觉得如果一个月的时间有够吗可以两个月吗两个月好如果两个月的时间希望能够就是更仔细更严谨一点好不好好接下来我们再来讨论今天赵伟牌的这个案子今天都有提到我们目前台湾有18个世界遗产潜力点那到目前为止还没有任何一个申请成世界遗产对不对"},{"start":435.346,"end":441.257,"text":"據了解這個原因是為什麼到現在我們都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功"},{"start":441.958,"end":470.752,"text":"因為我們沒有不具備申請的資格它必須是聯合國的會員國或者是UNESCO的會員國又或者是這個世界遺產保護血公約的一個簽約國是要符合以上條件對嗎但是我想我們有看到其實有簽署世界遺產公約的國家除了聯合國193個會員國以外還有兩個觀察會員國就包括教廷巴勒斯坦以及還有兩個非會員國包括庫克群島跟紐埃"},{"start":471.212,"end":495.398,"text":"其實他們都已經簽署了公約那我想文化部你有沒有去了解一下那為什麼庫克群島跟紐愛這個例子他們是可以的呢這樣謝謝委員的詢問我們也去查了庫克群島它最主要是聯合國的秘書處它在1992年的時候它承認庫克群島可以有締約能力所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一那紐愛呢"},{"start":497.418,"end":517.583,"text":"應該是類似 就是一樣的狀況那可是目前就是 聯合國秘書處並不願意承認台灣是具有締約的能力好 我想我們繼續努力啦因為這兩個例子本期看到以後覺得很奇怪啊其實它也不是會員國那有去了解那我們就知道原因是什麼那另外我想我們再來提到一個就是說"},{"start":518.443,"end":537.484,"text":"文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站市長知道嘛 對嗎好 那這裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料也包含當前世界遺產的數量那市長這個官網你都看過嗎抱歉 我沒有真的看過那官網架設起來你自己都不看要給誰看"},{"start":539.125,"end":559.574,"text":"這很抱歉我會改進然後這邊同事有說明我們現在這個網站正在改版當中所以目前的資料所以就是因為你看你們自己都不重視自己都不去了解難怪裡面都會有很多的問題那我希望這些問題其實盡量不要說我們點出來你才去看自己架設的慣忘對你身為次長當然需要去了解"},{"start":560.054,"end":566.797,"text":"那文化部近三年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站還更新資料但是本席幫您從這個網站上面去看這個世界遺產的數量的時候我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產231處自然遺產以及40處的複合遺產一共是1223處世界遺產但是網站的下方介紹到卻寫到世界遺產只有1202處這個落差是為什麼"},{"start":590.642,"end":614.438,"text":"這資料不夠準確的地方我們都一併來做更正次長我必須要講其實這很糟糕欸因為這個是你們的官網第一個呢官網下設出來你們毫不重視資料亂七八糟甚至有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤然後次長自己不看我相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看那這樣子的官網還編了預算我覺得這個預算編給你不是很糟蹋嗎對不對而且官網還要花人力下去"},{"start":614.718,"end":633.062,"text":"妳是糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力我覺得這個是要嚴正的譴責喔多久時間可以改正好這個改版中我們今年年底一定會完全改版完成之後這一併的資料的密務支持多久的時間可以改完我們就是今年年底會全部改好還要到今年年底喔"},{"start":634.096,"end":634.436,"text":"好 謝謝萬美玲委員 次長請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時43分）謝謝召委。有請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：次長好。我想我們的歷史、建物、古蹟、遺址等文化資產，都具有公共財的屬性，是臺灣所有人民共同的瑰寶，我相信你認同嘛。我們在前年看到文資法修正，我們配合大法官釋字第813號解釋，歷史建築土地為第三人所有，未以金錢或其他適當方式給予相當之補償，不符憲法第十五條保障人民財產權而宣告部分違憲，所以本院修法「保障歷史建築及紀念建築其坐落土地的所有權人，得申請容積移轉及享有免徵地價稅、房屋稅優惠」，我想這個次長都知道，對嗎？但是同樣在文化資產的保存上，針對開發單位，不管是公私部門，在開發時挖掘到古蹟遺址的時候，您知道清除是怎麼處理的嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：通常是先不能動，先保存。"],["萬委員美玲：處理的流程、程序您很清楚，對嗎？好，那我們就繼續來討論。根據文化資產保存法第五十七條第二款規定，「營建工程或其他開發行為進行中，發見疑似考古遺址時，應即停止工程或開發行為之進行，並通知所在地直轄市、縣（市）主管機關……主管機關應即進行調查，並送審議會審議，以採取相關措施，完成審議程序前，開發單位不得復工」，這也沒有錯，對嗎？","好，審議有的時候需要滿長的一段時間，不管是公私部門的開發計畫，開發單位都要去承擔停工的相關成本，我想請教一下次長，目前如果因為文資審議程序而停工的話，國家是不是有任何補償的相關措施？"],["李次長靜慧：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：目前沒有，但是依照現行法規來看，如果開發單位挖到遺址，不僅必須獨自承擔被迫停工造成的許多損失之外，如果它現在要繼續開發復工，還要進一步向文資審議會提出保存計畫，再依照審議的面積先行試掘還有保存。這當中除了耗費很多時間相關成本之外，還有很多費用，而這一切都必須由開發單位自行承擔。這些您都知道嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對，目前的狀況是這樣子。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您是清楚的嘛！"],["李次長靜慧：對，其實我們的主要目的是希望，它在開發之前先有一個調查。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我瞭解，我們繼續往下看。台積電在南科的嘉義園區要設置一個先進封裝廠，結果挖到遺址而必須停工，這個次長應該也曉得。在本席的選區裡面有桃園捷運綠線，在109年的時候G07站也挖到考古遺址，所以也造成停工，延宕工程進度其實還滿嚴重的，直到上一週文資的審查才完成。","今年我們看到在桃園一樣，桃園的臺鐵新站好不容易才動工，馬上又挖到考古遺址，其中保存的方式都是由開發單位自行出資承擔。這樣的問題其實不斷在發生，除了剛剛本席舉的3個例子之外，我們其實很難保……未來在相關重大的這些公私建設、重大國家建設都會發生這樣的問題，所以我想今天拿出來討論時就必須提到，我們剛剛有提到相關的這些考古遺址是全民的公共財，而且我們要知道，如果剛好沒有這個工程，沒有開發單位的開發、挖掘，恐怕這些文物跟遺址就沒有重見天日的一天。所以我想政府要去想一想，發現這樣一個狀況的時候，我們是不是應該要有一些相關的補償方式？有沒有想一想我們應該要怎麼去做比較好？因為這個問題會一直存在。","我們要看，如果開發的行為挖到這個寶，可是卻沒有通報，甚至在我們不知道或者是知道的情況之下，文化資產受損了，其實它也要被處罰。這樣是不是就有一點有功沒有賞、打破卻還要賠？我想這樣就有一點不合理，也不利於未來遺址的保存。","再來要跟次長談的是，全國商業總會也曾經提出過，有開發單位也跟他們陳情，挖到遺址要請專家學者還有試挖掘的費用，其實有時候這是沒有行情的天價，沒有一個行情在。目前文化部針對剛剛相關的問題，我想待會就請次長簡答一下，並且提出文化部現在有沒有研議去建立相關的評估人才庫，以供開發單位作參考。次長。"],["李次長靜慧：依序回答一下委員的提問，剛剛講到目前對開發單位來講，如果它挖到有這些考古遺址的時候，目前的法令的確是要求停工，然後要等審議委員會，這中間沒有任何的補償機制。為什麼不給補償機制？這個部分其實我們也跟專家學者討論過，專家學者是擔憂如果有了補償機制，會讓任何開發單位無後顧之憂地隨便開發，這樣就有變相鼓勵開發的情形，這是他們的憂慮，所以建議我們不要有補償機制。","可是委員剛剛說到，如果這些東西都沒有人開發的話，它就一直被埋在地底下，可能也永無天日可見，這是另外一種議題、另外一種思考模式，或許我們在這個方向上，可以再跟文資團體或者是我們的專家學者……"],["萬委員美玲：再討論好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：會進一步討論，這是第一個。"],["萬委員美玲：剛剛講到試挖掘的行情呢？"],["李次長靜慧：試挖掘的人才庫，這個部分我們可以去建立，然後提出一個建議名單。這個我們可以……"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想這兩個問題都非常重要，希望會後次長在文化部可以好好討論一下。","接下來我要再提到，我想我國在當前世界遺產的潛力點當中，有包含水金九礦業遺址，還有卑南遺址、都蘭山，地面下其實可能還有一些極具潛力的遺址。如果按照現在的制度下去做，我們其實很擔憂，未來具有潛力的遺址會不會因此而被掩埋掉？我們可以參考各專家學者過去的經驗、碰到的困難，希望你們回去想一想之後，能夠在什麼樣的時間之內把這個報告提供給我們？不曉得次長覺得一個月的時間夠嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：可以兩個月嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：兩個月？好。如果有兩個月的時間，我希望能更仔細、更嚴謹一點，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來我們再來討論，今天召委排的這個案子，今天都有提到目前臺灣有18個世界遺產潛力點，到目前為止還沒有任何一個申請成世界遺產，對不對？據瞭解……為什麼我們到現在都還沒有任何一個點可以申請成功？"],["李次長靜慧：因為我們不具備申請的資格，它必須是聯合國的會員國，或者是UNESCO的會員國，又或者是世界遺產保護公約的簽約國。"],["萬委員美玲：要符合以上條件，對嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對，要有這三個條件。"],["萬委員美玲：其實我們也看到，有簽署世界遺產保護公約的國家，除了聯合國那193個會員國以外，還有兩個觀察會員國，包括教廷跟巴勒斯坦，還有兩個非會員國，包括庫克群島跟紐埃，其實他們都已經簽署了這個公約。文化部有沒有去瞭解一下，為什麼庫克群島跟紐埃這個例子是可以的呢？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的詢問，我們也去查了，庫克群島最主要是聯合國秘書處在1992年的時候，承認庫克群島可以有締約能力，所以它可以是那個公約的締約國之一。"],["萬委員美玲：那紐埃呢？"],["李次長靜慧：應該是類似、一樣的狀況，可是目前就是聯合國秘書處不願意承認臺灣具有締約的能力。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想我們繼續努力，因為這兩個例子本席看到以後也覺得很奇怪，其實它們也不是會員國，也有去瞭解，我們就知道原因是什麼。","另外我要再提到一個，文資局針對世界遺產潛力點也架設了一個網站，次長知道，對嗎？裡面有我國世界遺產潛力點的資料，也包含當前世界遺產的數量，次長，這個官網你都看過嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：抱歉，我沒有真的看過，但是我知道……"],["萬委員美玲：官網架設起來，你自己都不看是要給誰看？"],["李次長靜慧：真的很抱歉，我會改進。我們同事有說明，現在這個網站正在改版當中，所以目前的資料還有文字上……"],["萬委員美玲：所以就是因為你們自己都不重視、自己都不去瞭解，難怪裡面都會有很多問題。我希望這些問題儘量不是我們點出來才去看，對於自己架設的官網，你身為次長當然須要去瞭解。","文化部近3年總共編列了114萬來維護這個網站並更新資料，但是本席幫你們從這個網站上去看這個世界遺產的數量時，我們發現網站的上半部寫著952處文化遺產，231處自然遺產，以及40處的複合遺產，一共是1,223處的世界遺產，但是網站的下方的介紹卻寫道，世界遺產只有1,202處，這個落差是為什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：這個資料不夠準確的地方，我們都會一併更正。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我必須要講，其實這個很糟糕，因為這個是你們官網。第一個，官網架設出來，你們毫不重視，資料亂七八糟，甚至還有這麼多的謬誤跟錯誤，然後次長自己不看，相信文化部裡面很多人都沒有看，這樣的官網還編了預算，我覺得這個預算編給你們不是很糟蹋嗎？對不對？而且官網還要花人力下去，你既糟蹋了財力也糟蹋了人力……"],["李次長靜慧：非常抱歉，我們來檢討。"],["萬委員美玲：我覺得這個要嚴正地譴責。多久的時間可以改正好？"],["李次長靜慧：這個在改版中，我們今年年底一定會完全改版，完成之後這些資料的謬誤會一併……"],["萬委員美玲：多久的時間可以改完？"],["李次長靜慧：我們就是今年年底會全部改好。"],["萬委員美玲：還要到今年年底喔！"],["李次長靜慧：數字的部分，我們會馬上修正，只是改版的部分，還有包括語言版本的部分，在今年年底會完成。"],["萬委員美玲：你要整個重大改版，我沒有意見，但是就現在你的官網上面，不管數字還是內容，應該要更新還是要豐富，一個禮拜之內完成，可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，次長請回。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。回娘家，4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5645f0935382a512d049f0f8eeb1de8c89c46063d171e8badfa8b866b73984518a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:39:08 - 11:53:12","影片長度":"00:14:04","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:39:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:53:12+08:00","duration":844,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.101593750000001,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.50221875,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.62846875,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.30346875,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.282218750000006,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.00721875,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.322843750000004,"end":51.111593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.28034375,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.001593750000005,"end":54.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.97596875,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.13971875,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.789093750000006,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.68721875,"end":74.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.20159375,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.78721875000001,"end":104.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.52909375,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.54596875,"end":118.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.38034375000001,"end":113.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.37534375000001,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":123.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.25221875000001,"end":128.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.88846875000002,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.97221875,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.28471875,"end":164.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.12784375,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.16471875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.58659375000002,"end":171.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.38784375,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.15346875,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.33909375000002,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.59596875000003,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.62096875,"end":193.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.17784375000002,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.74596875,"end":211.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.31409375,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.30534375000002,"end":216.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.02659375000002,"end":219.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.82784375000003,"end":219.84471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.84471875000003,"end":219.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.97971875000002,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.04721875,"end":220.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.08096875,"end":222.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.11471875,"end":223.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.27034375000002,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.53534375,"end":228.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.99096875,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.29409375,"end":303.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.98534375000003,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.42659375,"end":331.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.08034375,"end":347.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.33534375000005,"end":360.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.04221875,"end":368.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.21034375000005,"end":364.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.24409375000005,"end":364.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.39596875,"end":364.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.95221875000004,"end":371.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.68596875000003,"end":377.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.73659375,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.02346875,"end":374.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.94284375,"end":375.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.13659375000003,"end":381.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.93346875000003,"end":441.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.28346875,"end":382.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.50221875,"end":386.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.85659375,"end":387.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.63284375,"end":443.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.52284375000005,"end":469.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.88159375000004,"end":475.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.00284375,"end":502.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.91409375,"end":510.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.70221875000004,"end":515.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.52409375,"end":544.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.8572187500001,"end":569.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.4565937500001,"end":603.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.7678437500001,"end":618.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.89659375,"end":617.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.88784375,"end":645.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.1328437500001,"end":652.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.9753437500001,"end":655.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.04659375,"end":668.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.25596875,"end":706.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.3972187500001,"end":709.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.18596875,"end":709.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.4053437500002,"end":709.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.47284375,"end":710.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.5065937500001,"end":710.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.55284375,"end":733.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.8828437500001,"end":732.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.9753437500001,"end":770.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.4084687500001,"end":770.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.5772187500002,"end":770.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.61096875,"end":771.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.9272187500001,"end":771.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.83846875,"end":772.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.85534375,"end":789.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.0678437500001,"end":794.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.02534375,"end":835.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.08221875,"end":806.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.21284375,"end":808.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.9172187500001,"end":837.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":838.12784375,"end":840.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":842.0090937500001,"end":842.7178437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.11,"end":7.13,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":37.911,"end":59.127,"text":"他已經先回去了 我覺得也是補充一下因為我覺得剛剛我們也是有一直希望秘書長先回但是秘書長就是認為說這是他的職務 他堅持留下來所以我們是非常感謝秘書長那因為這段時間我的感覺是說有很多位秘書長有的我們請他來 他不來有的我們請他回去休息 他不願意"},{"start":59.847,"end":74.255,"text":"真的差距太大所以我覺得今天我覺得也很應該是真的肯定他非常感動就是劉秘書長真的我剛好多事情他說真的回去休息然後他就說一定要留下來把植物做完"},{"start":75.299,"end":100.47,"text":"是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官適不適用"},{"start":106.567,"end":122.48,"text":"跟委員報告 政務官呢 他是 職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢 它是 現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用那我請問一下 那如果我們派駐海外的就是說我們的102條 委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分"},{"start":129.065,"end":137.954,"text":"是執罷申訴的部分 它是準用的準用 好 所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用"},{"start":158.322,"end":169.081,"text":"她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊"},{"start":170.222,"end":193.418,"text":"他們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委他也許是音樂家他也許是歌手也許是某一位這個長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面 準用也都準用對 因為他們是屬於政務官好 那請問一下軍人準不準用"},{"start":194.238,"end":211.696,"text":"跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正我們目前不包含軍人"},{"start":213.399,"end":230.838,"text":"是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長"},{"start":234.048,"end":262.543,"text":"也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下 釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外"},{"start":263.283,"end":285.26,"text":"那么过去我也有曾经质询过因为我们考试院也曾经研修要修正公务人员考机法那我自己本人也提出了公务人员考机法的修正这个部分是使得在公务人员的他的讲诚里面"},{"start":286.842,"end":302.335,"text":"有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷"},{"start":303.556,"end":317.608,"text":"跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何"},{"start":332.29,"end":359.911,"text":"跟委員報告就是說有關於公務員就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公務員考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公務員考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來"},{"start":360.111,"end":370.827,"text":"所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好 那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷 姓騷有沒有"},{"start":371.892,"end":382.739,"text":"欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有 獨駕有沒有有 我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好 來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分"},{"start":398.328,"end":425.428,"text":"那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法"},{"start":426.369,"end":431.797,"text":"那像今天在修法裡面 比如說同樣的 這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面 它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法 它就有刑法了"},{"start":443.593,"end":469.051,"text":"那所以职安法认为很多对劳工来讲是保障对基层公务人员也认为这样对他的保障是比较全面的那我所了解的是其实你们也有在跟一些我们的这些公务人员的这些团体事实上他们也已经跟你们成情然后你们也有跟他们开会所以我想了解一下"},{"start":470.513,"end":475.061,"text":"讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法 剛才也講"},{"start":477.985,"end":492.593,"text":"這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了 對不對那所以同樣的 所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講 就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度 還有你們目前的態度是什麼"},{"start":504.926,"end":514.673,"text":"公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案"},{"start":516.581,"end":539.677,"text":"安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院徵收條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法"},{"start":540.237,"end":569.2,"text":"的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面"},{"start":570.506,"end":598.357,"text":"安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於"},{"start":599.233,"end":608.338,"text":"這一個我們自己該做的事情 先把它完成如果說未來 大家覺得"},{"start":609.937,"end":633.917,"text":"這個不只是這三 這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對 沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們爭取了很多的不只是這三個團體 很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說"},{"start":634.588,"end":655.086,"text":"要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好 你講那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能"},{"start":656.107,"end":672.196,"text":"沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求我們都說就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題"},{"start":673.257,"end":688.232,"text":"那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件"},{"start":694.117,"end":719.708,"text":"相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也也沒有說不就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢他比較是屬於未來式"},{"start":721.249,"end":732.757,"text":"那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人各類公務人員大家可以一起來討論的事情因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不一定支持列入職安法"},{"start":749.349,"end":768.456,"text":"那你可不可以把你們 既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見 正反意見嘛 你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持 可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對 或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎 提供給我們辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":772.901,"end":788.774,"text":"跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以他這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並"},{"start":790.134,"end":805.368,"text":"不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態 好不好沒關係 你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛 對不對"},{"start":806.949,"end":808.39,"text":"我們現在修正工人保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢"},{"start":826.056,"end":839.669,"text":"會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會辨明的這些問題好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時39分）在發言之前，我想先講一下，因為今天考試院秘書長身體不適，尤其我們經歷過這麼多，包含總統府秘書長、監察院秘書長、國安會秘書長都藐視立法院，今天考試院秘書長抱病還到我們這邊來備詢，而且還滿長的時間，我覺得這一點，我們真的應該予以肯定，也希望他的身體都沒有什麼事情。"],["主席：好，因為他已經先回去了，我這邊也是補充一下，剛剛我們也是一直希望秘書長先回，但秘書長就是認為這是他的職務，堅持留下來，所以我們非常感謝秘書長。這段時間有很多位秘書長，有的我們請他來，他不來，有的我們請他回去休息，他不願意，我的感覺是這個差距其實滿大的。"],["王委員鴻薇：真的差距太大，所以我覺得今天真的是肯定他。"],["主席：非常感動，我剛剛好多次請劉秘書長回去休息，他就說一定要留下來，把職務做完。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。秘書長先回去休息，我覺得沒有什麼問題，因為本來就是身體不適，不用在這邊硬撐著，但是我們還是非常謝謝他。","我想先請教一下保訓會主委，我們今天修正公務人員保障法，關於適用範圍，第一、請問政務官適不適用？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，政務官是職安法有公告部分適用職安法，但是在我們這邊，現在是變成準用的部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，如果派駐海外的……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：職霸申訴的部分而已，就是第一百零二條，委員在問的應該是第一百零二條，針對職霸申訴的部分，它是準用的。"],["王委員鴻薇：有關霸凌的部分，事實上，我們派駐海外的單位像代表處，時不時就會傳來外館霸凌事件，請問外館從大使、公使以下是不是也都準用？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：如果是公務人員任用法的，他都適用。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是現在很多大使都是空降啊！很多大使沒有任何公務人員身分啊！包括很多公使也是如此。他沒有公務人員身分，他也許是立委、他也許是音樂家、他也許是歌手、他也許是某一位長官的好朋友，我不曉得這種大使、公使包不包含在裡面？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：在裡面，準用，因為他們屬於政務官。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，請問一下軍人準不準用？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，軍人有國防部他們自己一整套的安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以現在我們修正公務人員保障法，不包含軍人？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，不包含軍人。當然教職人員也包括在內，所以現在看起來講到現在……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：公立學校的沒有包括，公立學校老師是適用職安法。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，公立學校的校長呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：職安法。"],["王委員鴻薇：也是職安法，待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分，我想確定一下、釐清一下。","另外，我想請教銓敘部次長，我們從勞動部發生嚴重的霸凌事件之後，就全面檢討相關法律，除了我們今天修正公務人員保障法，讓霸凌防制能夠更加完善之外，過去我也曾經質詢過，考試院也曾經研修公務人員考績法，我自己也提出了公務人員考績法的修正，這個部分是要把職場霸凌納入公務人員的獎懲裡面。現在社會大眾高度重視譬如我們今天討論的霸凌，或者是之前大家也非常關心的性騷、跟騷、酒駕甚至毒駕，我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件，這些都是社會高度關注，尤其公務人員不應該發生的事情，我們應該把它納入公務人員考績法裡面的獎懲項目。我想請問一下銓敘部，你們現在修法的進度為何？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，您剛剛垂詢的這部分是屬於我們公務人員考績法第十二條的部分，考試院已經在今年的5月6日把公務人員考績法的修正案送到大院來了，主要是修改一次記兩大過的專案考績，包括職霸、性騷或性侵等等規範，我們都完整的檢視這個法並送到大院來。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以已經送到立法院來了，5月6日的時候，是不是？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是霸凌的部分已經納入，跟騷、性騷、性侵有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：這次我們都整體的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下酒駕有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：毒駕有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：有，目前大概都在條文裡面……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，都已經在條文裡，真的這樣的話，我們也會加速來修法。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為本來各項的法律就應該齊頭並進。","另外，我想請問一下保訓會主委，剛才談到職安法，我們再怎麼樣的去保障公務人員的勞動環境跟勞動條件，但是廣大的基層公務人員認為，如果僅僅是修正公務人員保障法不足以那麼全面的照顧到，所以基層公務人員一直都有一個聲音，就是讓公務人員能夠全面適用職安法。像今天的修法，同樣的比如霸凌，在原本你們的版本裡面就沒有相關的刑法懲處，可是在職安法就有刑法。所以職安法對勞工來講是保障，同時基層公務人員也認為對他們的保障是比較全面的。就我所了解，其實你們也有跟一些公務人員團體接觸，他們也跟你們陳情，然後你們也有跟他們開會，所以我想了解一下，讓公務人員全面適用職安法，剛才也講公立學校教職員已經適用職安法了，同樣是公教人員，為什麼公立學校教職員可以適用職安法，而公家機關的基層公務人員就不能適用職安法呢？請問現在要推動公務人員全面適用職安法，你們目前的進度還有你們目前的態度是什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，現階段我們提出公務人員保障法的修正草案，以及安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性修正，基本上是憲法增修條文第六條對於考試院職掌上的要求，再來就是大院在行使這一屆考試院長周弘憲院長同意權的時候，要求我們儘速提出公務人員保障法的修正跟安衛辦法，以完備整個公務體系的安全衛生及職場霸凌防治，所以這點我們責無旁貸，而且面對大院及貴委員會期待迅速的要求，現階段就是把大院對我們的要求儘速完成。除了速度以外，其實最重要的是在整個法制的建置上，安衛辦法、保障法與職安法等相關規範是要拉齊的，讓我們的法規就職霸部分規範得更為詳細。現階段各界的共識是希望儘速讓公務人員職場安全這套制度完備或是更加健全，所以我們目前先把自己該做的事完成。如果未來大家覺得不只委員列出的這三類代表，也應包含社會各界還有各式各樣公務人員……"],["王委員鴻薇：對！沒錯。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：如果未來不只這三個團體而已，因為我們也徵詢了很多其他團體。委員所提及這三個團體立場是一致的，但其他團體並沒有提出要全面適用職安法這樣的要求，所以對於這個部分，我們目前沒有思考這個方向，就是把我們該做的部分做好。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你講了那麼久，意思就是你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：委員這樣的說法可能沒有很……我們沒有表示贊成與不贊成，而是現階段考試院及我們保訓會是做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待與要求。"],["王委員鴻薇：這些你剛剛都講過，包含今天就是要加速推動修法，這都沒有問題，只是對於很多基層公務人員──如同剛剛講到的醫院或學校已經適用職安法，大家總覺得一國不要兩制、一國不要三制、不要那麼多制，所以確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在勞動條件及環境的相關部分，他們應該可以適用職安法，因為他們覺得有更好的保障，因此我剛才問你們的態度。你們的態度怎麼樣？是不贊成也沒有反對？沒有贊成也沒有反對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，我們過去這幾個月非常努力地完成大院對於我們的要求跟期待，而委員這一題屬於未來式，未來如果整個社會氛圍以及大家都覺得可以，那就是社會上各行各業、包含各類公務人員，大家可以一起討論的事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣好不好？待會留一些時間，進入法條時再討論。","你剛剛講，除了這三個基層公務人員團體之外，還有很多團體不一定支持納入職安法，既然你說你們跟那麼多單位溝通，你可不可以提供正反意見？是正反意見，一定有人支持嘛！但照你的意思，雖然有人支持，可是不是所有人都支持，也有人反對，或是有人不支持也不反對，你把這些正反意見提供給我們委員，可以嗎？提供給我們辦公室，可以嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這個資料我們是可以提供，但是那天主要是針對之前的草案作討論，這個議題不是當天的議題，所以有些團體以及很多機關代表並不會直接對這一題有所表態。"],["王委員鴻薇：他們可能沒有表態，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒關係，你就把你們跟所有團體討論職安法相關議題時有表態的提供給我嘛！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：可以。"],["王委員鴻薇：好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：可以，沒有問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣我們可以作為參考嘛！因為你可能怕這樣會以偏概全，搞不好其他團體沒有說需要啊！","我一再地講，基本立場就是修正公務人員保障法是現在正在做的工作，但是會有愈來愈多基層公務人員覺得需要更多保障，所以我覺得這些本來就是……不要說未來啦！而是現在就會面臨到這些問題，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：以上，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","先處理會議時間問題。中午不休息，上午會議持續進行處理議程所列事項。","現在進行討論事項，處理前先宣讀條文。由於第二案提案條文已宣讀完畢，請議事人員宣讀第一案提案條文，預估宣讀時間12分鐘。如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出，請儘速將書面資料送交主席臺以利印發現場、進行討論。","審查法案時，請主要列席機關代表移至主席臺後方。宣讀時已經收到的修正動議也一併宣讀，宣讀後即進行討論。","請宣讀條文。","INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_01.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_02.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_03.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_04.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_05.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_06.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_07.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_08.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_09.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_10.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_11.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_12.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_13.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_14.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_15.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_16.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_17.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_18.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_19.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_20.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_21.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_22.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_23.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_24.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_25.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_26.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_27.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_28.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n\n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK4200GF4\\\\Desktop\\\\JPG\\\\司法_公務人員保障法條文對照表_頁面_29.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","二、討論事項第一案修正動議：","1.","2.","INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\36_頁面_2.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\36_頁面_3.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\36_頁面_4.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","3.","INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_2.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","4.","INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_4.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_5.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"d:\\\\users\\\\2TK42201XK\\\\Desktop\\\\114057\\\\37\\\\c37_頁面_6.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT","三、討論事項第二案修正動議：","INCLUDEPICTURE \"\\\\\\\\10.21.31.211\\\\snp\\\\dpc17\\\\38_頁面_2.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT \n            \n\n INCLUDEPICTURE \"\\\\\\\\10.21.31.211\\\\snp\\\\dpc17\\\\38_頁面_3.jpg\" \\* MERGEFORMAT"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564fc124caad5919fb9cd8722aad0b92e7f46063d171e8badfa3857f2a2ef1560d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:45:26 - 11:52:59","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:45:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:52:59+08:00","duration":453,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8109687500000002,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.890968750000001,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.880968750000001,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.86659375,"end":53.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.93346875,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.04596875000001,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.91909375,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.32409375,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.37471875000001,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.89784375,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.96534375,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.84159375000002,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.19096875000002,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.00096875,"end":192.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.49034375000002,"end":194.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.27471875,"end":195.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.61221875,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.04659375,"end":203.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.62784375,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.26034375,"end":206.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.14846875,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.31284375,"end":221.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.39284375000003,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.40846875000003,"end":231.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":278.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.47221875000002,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.25721875,"end":304.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.54034375000003,"end":334.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.82659375000003,"end":337.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.25659375000004,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.19721875000005,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.93534375,"end":351.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.39846875,"end":349.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.13659375000003,"end":353.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.22471875,"end":354.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.44409375000004,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.96284375000005,"end":366.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.98221875,"end":398.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.15409375,"end":409.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.94159375000004,"end":448.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.18846875,"end":450.79596875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.522,"end":6.485,"text":"謝謝召委 謝謝主席 有請陳建特主委請主委"},{"start":14.992,"end":33.267,"text":"委員好主委好那延續剛才鍾嘉賓委員所提到的這個部分那當然說目前來講在工程委員會在許多企業的部分模組的部分那有一個指導跟包括法規的主委機關的一個角色但是剛才所提到這蠻有趣的就是"},{"start":34.088,"end":51.807,"text":"川普的這個衝擊之下那到底是是要排路還是要針對這個我們的產業來去進行這個扶植啊那我覺得說光誠委員會雖然是在政府採購法跟包括的政府的採購契約上面是主管機關但是"},{"start":52.808,"end":66.813,"text":"有些的一個是不是能夠扶植像你剛才講到電動汽車的這個電型電池到底是陸資還是在我們國內來講是不是有扶植相關的一些產業它能夠有這些補貼措施那我是覺得說"},{"start":68.154,"end":83.624,"text":"就是主委因為您雖然是說工程委員會的主委他不用去對其他的部會做相關的一個指導因為你們就依法規來去辦理這個事務跟做法律的解釋但是因為曾經的主委您是身兼行政院的政務委員"},{"start":84.444,"end":106.384,"text":"那所以說在這個許多的部會的業務推行推展的話您是非常清楚的所以我會建議說主委針對這個目前包括像剛才所電動車的這個電信電池還是不是能夠複製相關產業除了在是否為陸資的一個認定跟契約採購的這個解釋之外我覺得其實可以更有更大的一個"},{"start":107.365,"end":118.599,"text":"這就是責任是說如果是相關的這培育我們國內的產業啊那能夠具有競爭力啊那您有曾委員的身份應該也可以給有更多的建議啊好不好"},{"start":120.52,"end":148.289,"text":"經濟部來了解好那再來的話針對5月11號您在宜蘭這邊有提到工地放領的政策那當然說你是去特別針對宜蘭蘇澳的台拓的土地80公頃在未來來講3月要完成放領那甚至是內政部跟財政部以及宜蘭縣政府還不得超過8月底那當然說在網路跟媒體的討論當然是好壞都有"},{"start":148.789,"end":162.34,"text":"但是我是覺得當然只要還地於民還對於我們農民的一個就是相關的權益能夠獲得提升那絕對是一個正向的事情那但是在後續來講的話其實整個"},{"start":164.682,"end":182.97,"text":"在全台的相關公定放領的一個政策我相信這個議題其實主委也主導了許久那除了宜蘭之外後續全台灣的一個公定放領包括台拓或是其他的一個國土地放領的一個方向上是不是可以趁這個機會再說明一下"},{"start":185.902,"end":199.868,"text":"南澳台拓地的部分主要是因為它是平地耕地20年前就審查通過要放民20年前就經過內政部的公立放民審議委內審議原則通過放民"},{"start":203.749,"end":231.93,"text":"那後來因為其他的因素這個放臨就停下來停下來20年所以這次是重新檢視當年已經審查通過的個案來試辦那事實上準備了很久將近一年的時間我說三個月是因為都已經進行的相關都已經有名冊照冊什麼都有了所以現在只是要進行相關的分割等等所以三個月是OK的"},{"start":232.17,"end":251.542,"text":"我今天來講對這個政策我是樂觀其成因為從921討治颱風之後從2002年到2008年工地放飲其實是陸續的停辦到現在所以就像你剛才所提到這20年那在宜蘭的話我坦白講這個先不說是否是因為選舉或是政策的一個特別的一個"},{"start":252.423,"end":278.659,"text":"一個選舉的規劃那我是說像南投縣的話其實有許多還期待著就是公立放嶺政策或者像是相關的林場或是像是竹山的瑞竹鼎林大安合作社台中南投至少有11000公頃將近8000餘戶那我想知道在規劃上在未來南投公立放嶺的一個規劃跟啟程或是相關的計畫如何因為我不希望是只有宜蘭而已"},{"start":280.287,"end":303.384,"text":"報告委員我剛剛講說是事辦事辦是挑以前已經核准的那這裡放零的部分包括平地耕地還有山坡地還有養殖用地甚至園墾農各式各樣的樣態不同那我想這個主辦機關是內政部那內政部自然他們會根據他們的規劃去考量我想這個是內政部會有所討論"},{"start":304.966,"end":320.162,"text":"那沒關係因為其實您是政務委員那其實對於這個議題你也關心許久啊那所以說不要說是在宜蘭那我也希望說同樣在您在督導的業務來講在南投縣那其實許多的農民他們也在期待的看到"},{"start":320.783,"end":333.309,"text":"宜蘭縣的這個政策出來的時候事辦政策出來的時候就有許多的民眾農民來問我因為我地方的區域立委啊那他們就會說那南投的相關的工地放零什麼時候會開始來進行那我們同時也必須要對民眾來進行回應說明"},{"start":335.888,"end":354.378,"text":"因為是適用不同的法規他每個機關每個用地是不同的法規平地是平地那所以說目前來講的話這公立放棄就只有宜蘭說好的這一件有他的法規的就已經可以來進行那未來有沒有第二階段其他法規可能要再去中整所以所以只有針對宜蘭"},{"start":355.058,"end":371.377,"text":"不會內政部是針對這件事辦之後他會他的衡量是不是有一些法規要修正等等才進一步我想可能你可以向內政部去了解那我還是要麻煩陳主委因為你對南投也有幫忙啦那個開閉颱風"},{"start":372.438,"end":397.894,"text":"那我也希望說您是政務委員的身份也能夠幫忙南投農民而不只是在宜蘭那因為內政部的話他們現在的話整個心思都在是不是改中正路中山路來您我的母校中正大學都可能都有受到波及的可能性啊所以我坦白講工地販領的話也是內政部主管的業務那如果可以的話麻煩您用政務委員的身份能夠盡量的來協助讓我們南投能夠早日有工地販領的一個示範或好成績啊"},{"start":400.234,"end":416.736,"text":"繼續去了解相關的法規目前的適用的狀況那有需要調整有需要修正有需要整理的我會督促內政部來辦理好 謝謝那最後的話這時間我再補充就是公共工程採購案的話在目前來講碳排係數跟管理規範"},{"start":417.677,"end":433.692,"text":"是不是能夠有針對各縣市來去做一個連結或是包括各縣市能夠做配合以及包括是否規定廠商要提供碳排的報告那目前所做的這個提供報告的比例參與的比例以及說碳足跡是否納入評選的標準跟時程"},{"start":435.473,"end":450.272,"text":"那同時碳足跡的一個資料庫的建置還有綠色材料優先採購以及對中小企業的輔導及補助機制因為時間有限所以再麻煩工程會能夠用書面的方式再提供一個分析好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時45分）謝謝召委，有請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["游委員顥：主委好。延續剛才鍾佳濱委員所提到的部分，目前來講，在公共工程委員會許多契約的模組，有一個指導跟包括法規主管機關的角色，但是剛才所提到……這滿有趣的是在川普關稅衝擊之下，到底是要排陸，還是要針對我們的產業進行扶植，我覺得公共工程委員會雖然是政府採購法及政府採購契約的主管機關，但是有些產業是不是能夠扶植？像是剛才提到電動汽車的電芯電池，到底是陸製，還是在我們國內來講，是不是有扶植相關的產業有這些補貼措施，我覺得雖然你是公共工程委員會的主委，不用去對其他的部會做相關的指導，你們是依法規辦理執掌事務跟做法令的解釋，也因為主委曾經是身兼行政院的政務委員，所以在許多部會的業務推行及推展，您是非常清楚的，所以我建議主委針對目前像剛才提到電動車的電芯電池，是不是能夠扶植相關的產業，除了在是否為陸製的認定及契約採購的解釋之外，我覺得可以有更大的責任培育我們國內的相關產業，能具有競爭力，您有政務委員的身分，應該也可以給更多的建議，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：我會跟經濟部一起來了解。"],["游委員顥：好。再來，針對您5月11日在宜蘭公地放領說明會上有提到公地放領的政策，您是特別針對宜蘭蘇澳80公頃的台拓土地，目標在未來3個月要完成放領，甚至協調內政部、財政部，以及宜蘭縣政府，不得超過8月底。在網路跟媒體的討論好壞都有，但是我覺得只要還地於民，對於我們農民相關的權益能獲得提升，絕對是一個正向的事情；對於後續來講，全臺公地放領的政策，我相信這個議題，主委也主導了許久，除了宜蘭之外，後續全臺灣的公地放領，包括台拓或是其他國有土地放領的方向上，是不是可以趁這個機會再說明一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：南澳台拓地的部分，主要是因為它是平地耕地，20年前就經過內政部的公地放領審議委員會審議原則通過放領，後來因為其他的因素，這個放領就停下來20年，所以這次是重新檢視當年已經審查通過的個案來試辦，事實上準備了很久，將近一年的時間，我說的3個月是都已經在進行的，都已經有相關名冊及造冊的，所以現在只是進行相關的分割等等，所以3個月是OK的。"],["游委員顥：今天我對這個政策是樂觀其成，因為從921桃芝颱風之後，從2002年到2008年公地放領其實陸續停辦到現在，所以就像你剛才所提到停辦了20年；在宜蘭的話，坦白講，先不論是否是因為政策或是特別為了選舉的規劃，像南投縣有許多民眾還期待著公地放領政策，像是相關的林場，包含竹山的瑞竹、頂林、大鞍林業生產合作社，臺中及南投至少有1萬1,000公頃，將近八千餘戶，我想知道未來在南投公地放領的規劃跟期程，或是相關的計畫，是如何？因為我不希望只有宜蘭而已。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我剛才講的是試辦，試辦主要是挑以前已經核准的，這裡放領的部分包括平地、耕地、山坡地，還有養殖用地，甚至原墾農，各式各樣的樣態不同，這部分的主辦機關是內政部，內政部會根據他們的規劃去考量，我想內政部會針對這部分會有所討論。"],["游委員顥：沒關係。因為您是政務委員，對於這個議題你也關心許久，所以不要只有在宜蘭，我也希望同樣在您督導的業務來講，在南投縣其實許多的農民也在期待看到宜蘭縣的試辦政策出來的時候，因為我是地方的區域立委，就許多的民眾跟農民來問我南投相關的公地放領什麼時候會開始進行？我們同時也必須要對民眾來進行回應說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為是適用不同的法規……"],["游委員顥：每個機關、每個用地是不同的法規？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。平地是平地、山坡地是山坡地。"],["游委員顥：所以以目前來講，公地放領就只有宜蘭蘇澳的這一件，有法規可以就近來進行，未來有沒有第二階段其他縣市的計畫？"],["陳主任委員金德：其他法規可能還要再去綜整，所以內政部會……"],["游委員顥：所有只有針對宜蘭？"],["陳主任委員金德：不會。內政部是針對這件試辦之後，他們會再去衡量，是不是有一些法規要修正等等，才會再進一步規劃，我想可能您可以向內政部去了解。"],["游委員顥：我還是一樣要麻煩陳主委，因為在凱米颱風時你對南投也有幫忙，我也希望以您是政務委員的身分，也能幫忙南投農民，而不只是在宜蘭。因為現在整個內政部的心思都在是不是要改中正路、中山路，連我的母校中正大學都有受到波及的可能性，所以我坦白講公地放領也是內政部主管的業務，如果可以的話，麻煩你用政務委員的身分能夠儘量的協助，讓我們南投能夠早日有公地放領的試辦或好成績。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會繼續去了解相關法規目前的適用的狀況，有需要調整、修正、整理的，我會督促內政部來辦理。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。最後，我再補充一下，目前來講公共工程採購案的碳排係數跟管理規範，是不是能夠針對各縣市做一個連結？或是包括各縣市能夠配合，以及包括是否規定廠商要提供碳排報告？目前所做的提供碳排報告的比例、參與的比例，以及碳足跡是否納入評選標準的時程與方向？同時是否能完善碳足跡資料庫的建置，還有綠色材料優先採購，以及對中小企業的輔導及補助機制？因為時間有限，所以再麻煩工程會用書面的方式再提供給本席。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、委員廖先翔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報；三、委員於質詢要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請行政院公共工程委員會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56471f3d746baf7040acd8722aad0b92e7f46063d171e8badfacd7ea65aa09343765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:35:37 - 11:45:15","影片長度":"00:09:38","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:35:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:45:15+08:00","duration":578,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.36846875,"end":5.2790937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.684093750000001,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.77659375,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.396593750000001,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.606593750000002,"end":18.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.26846875,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.46034375,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.56909375,"end":43.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.99034375,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.17159375,"end":50.875343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.398468750000006,"end":53.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.08159375,"end":56.258468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.899718750000005,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.73909375,"end":71.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.54284375,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.87159375,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.79909375000001,"end":81.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.60471875,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.56534375000001,"end":99.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.93096875,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.63409375,"end":113.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.14346875000001,"end":119.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.53159375000001,"end":119.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.45534375000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.53971875,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.86034375000001,"end":120.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.72096875000001,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.77159375000001,"end":152.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.35784375,"end":122.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.69034375000001,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.75784375,"end":128.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.02284375000002,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.11471875,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.26659375,"end":139.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.29409375,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.28096875,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.32284375,"end":157.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.50409375,"end":160.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.40221875,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.68909375,"end":162.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.70596875,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.82409375,"end":164.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.72659375,"end":170.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.17721875,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.20221875000001,"end":177.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.57284375,"end":179.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.66534375,"end":183.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.41159375,"end":184.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.93034375000002,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.20846875,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.26284375,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.49034375000002,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.41409375,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.47721875000002,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.08471875,"end":199.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.61596875,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.92784375000002,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.71596875,"end":207.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.03221875000003,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.46221875,"end":213.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.73596875,"end":216.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.26284375,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.07284375,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.21596875,"end":221.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.12284375000002,"end":224.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.67034375,"end":230.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.69534375,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.73221875000002,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.50784375,"end":242.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.18284375000002,"end":249.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.29159375,"end":250.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.75971875000002,"end":252.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.19409375,"end":254.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.86409375,"end":258.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.01159375000003,"end":261.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.45846875,"end":267.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.24659375000005,"end":274.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.99221875,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.92034375000003,"end":276.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.96659375,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.11659375,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.37784375,"end":292.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.55909375000005,"end":294.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.22534375000004,"end":295.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.49096875000004,"end":298.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.27034375,"end":305.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.77221875000004,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.52221875000004,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.58096875,"end":321.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.86721875,"end":319.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.95971875000004,"end":322.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.15346875,"end":328.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.85721875,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.04221875,"end":338.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.23971875,"end":342.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.91409375,"end":356.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.83596875,"end":359.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.89034375,"end":361.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.96596875,"end":364.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.51409375000003,"end":366.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.37034375,"end":368.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.88471875000005,"end":370.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.89284375,"end":371.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.14159375,"end":375.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.07346875,"end":376.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.37284375,"end":379.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.08971875000003,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.35096875000005,"end":383.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.95409375,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.88971875000004,"end":395.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.98596875000004,"end":407.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.93346875000003,"end":410.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.17346875000004,"end":412.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.58659375,"end":415.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.98284375000003,"end":416.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.01221875000005,"end":420.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.33659375,"end":425.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.68596875000003,"end":427.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.21721875000003,"end":430.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.52909375,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.50346875,"end":434.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.56221875000006,"end":448.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.24784375,"end":448.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.17159375000006,"end":457.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.69784375,"end":494.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.38409375000003,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.46784375000004,"end":509.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.70659375,"end":563.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.60534375,"end":568.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.1784687500001,"end":574.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.2322187500001,"end":577.08846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.53,"end":12.721,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政務機關所長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們陳主任委員請主委跟公共工程採購的部分的主管也可以請上來"},{"start":16.589,"end":38.415,"text":"主委好 其他的主管好我想今天來請教不只是您是主委 您也是政委我提到川普的關稅政策重視飛鴻供應鏈那麼政府採購是不是要排除特定地區來保查韌性我們現在看川普政策大家都了解其實在上個月4月到5月我們在經濟委員會在關心一題"},{"start":39.605,"end":55.07,"text":"在台灣的汽車因為美國他的關稅的關係他認為只要是有中國成本35%的修飾為中國車要刻意非常高的關稅甚至禁止進口但是在我們台灣經濟部的規定"},{"start":56.98,"end":77.846,"text":"我們的整車產業它事實上它的自治率要逐年調高到35%今年8月以後才到30%甚至我們知道台灣的整車廠它的很多零組件是來自於對岸因此就有委員質疑說那這樣的車子能符合美國對於飛鴻供應鏈的要求嗎主委你認為可不可以通得過這可能要請教美國吧"},{"start":82.293,"end":108.922,"text":"是 你要請教一下 打電話給您但是呢 我得到進步的答案是說台灣的整車業沒有在賣美國市場的啦因為台灣的整車業在美國市場沒有競爭力所以我們這樣的設置雖然跟美國認定標準不一樣但是呢 不受影響好了 但是呢台灣的供應鏈有很多來自中國或者是中國以外的第三地那這樣的一個組成的產品"},{"start":109.722,"end":113.043,"text":"甚至來到台灣組裝 可以供應給台灣的本國市場嗎這四位是 副主委好 陳副主委對不起喂你好 那個我想公共工程是只有在主管在有關政府採購的部分是的 這有些要問你的下一題對 所以我們的理解應該是從政府採購的部分那因為我們有加入GPA嘛"},{"start":136.073,"end":164.363,"text":"那原則上它有一個原產地的原則啦那這種非成員國的這個產品到底它經過什麼樣的一個資質轉換才會改變成是它產地別啊那這個這部分的主管機關據我所知應該是在財政部它有一個認定的辦法那是稅的問題海關的認定問題這我知道我在財政委員會好我們看下一題既然你說政府採購我就要問政府採購其實政府採購呢它其實"},{"start":165.765,"end":191.633,"text":"美方關鍵的是飛鴻但是我發現我們政府關鍵的是台製 國製譬如說政府補助如果是經濟部關鍵的領主件你要符合滿足我對這產業關鍵的領主件的我才給你補助 這合理嘛對不對 我政府要給你的錢必須你滿足我的政策要求主委是不是這樣子所以政府補助要求要參與的業者你必須滿足我的正面表列我才給你 同不同意"},{"start":192.489,"end":208.35,"text":"我想這是經濟部的業務啦那他如果符合經濟部的相關規定我現在要問的是政府採購但是政府採購我們可以在採購合約要求供應商是限本國國產製品嗎可不可以可以限嗎"},{"start":210.489,"end":224.616,"text":"啊你怎麼認定它是國產製品就是你說的財政部的只要財政部認定是就是是你們是這樣的標準嘛對不對好但是主委現在開始進入深水區了我們可以要求自治率嗎你的公共採購可以要求自治率嗎非GPS的也可以要求自治率好那我可以要求你的供應的產品關鍵零組件必須是國產的嗎"},{"start":237.776,"end":254.008,"text":"好那我先問一個有關於資安的晶片你們是把它放在哪個資安資訊產品是要求自製力還是要求國產製品還是要求你的這些有含有晶片的工程機具必須不得有中國的零組件的晶片可以要求嗎"},{"start":257.861,"end":276.239,"text":"好部長其實我今天要來談的是什麼呢就是在公共工程的採購當中啊其實我們的合約因為有其他的WTO的一些規範我們不能製造一些非關稅的障礙因此呢我們必須對有能力的全世界的廠商提供開放但是"},{"start":277.02,"end":298.004,"text":"有正當理由的時候我們還是可以限定譬如說我們的採購的財貨如果說有屬於供應鏈韌性的問題譬如說這個產品是中國供應的這個零組件是中國供應的但是呢一旦他不供應了我就買不到了那因此一開始我就不跟你買可不可以這樣子供應鏈韌性的部分 副主委完全沒有關係"},{"start":305.839,"end":332.278,"text":"所以我們的公共工程採購合約可以明明白白的把各種的要求都排除中國的產製的零組件可以嗎那就是看那個目的世界主管機關他採購機關的需求那合約上面都可以限都可以要求所以要拜託主委也拜託政委現在我們很多公共工程的採購合約他其實是一個標準的套裝但是在因應著各個機關我上次有問過要有一個減核表"},{"start":333.118,"end":355.746,"text":"有些不同的機敏設施有些不同的勞務採購我們要嚴防治安的風險嚴防紅色供應鏈對我們的服務的一些威脅所以我希望未來公共工程委員會在提供這些契約的模組的時候請你們先幫這些可能應用到的機關先設想好有哪些模組"},{"start":356.906,"end":374.812,"text":"或者你可以要求他全部限定是國產製品或者你要求他要有一定的自製率或者你要求他在關鍵零組件不得是哪些特定產地的或者是必須用本國產地的尤其是像晶片像資安甚至是一些會影響到我們供應鏈韌性的舉例來講"},{"start":377.873,"end":392.917,"text":"電動車電動車目前我們的政府採購合約裡面並沒有要求電池不能使用中國製造我們都知道電動車的市場裡面電池中國是個最大的可能也是做得最多最好的也有可能所以要用有競爭力的電動車多半會採用中國的電池"},{"start":396.098,"end":412.298,"text":"但是因為採購合約裡面沒有限制因此得標廠商得標之後往往面臨一個困局他能得標表示他的CP值很高他可能必須使用最有競爭力的零組件來構成但是一旦沒有得標廠商來檢舉說他怎麼用重核電池"},{"start":413.612,"end":431.181,"text":"工程會能夠裁說這個合約無效嗎不行啊但是使用機關會產生什麼很大的困擾你買了電動車結果裡面電子是中國製的這個輿論披露還得了嗎這個不見得是我們的契約精神但是是社會上的常識認知會衝突"},{"start":432.662,"end":442.316,"text":"所以我要請主委也請政委這個部分拜託工程會開始去做我們所有公共政府採購相關合約不管是勞務採購還是設備採購還是工程採購可以將這些模組研發出來"},{"start":450.202,"end":475.052,"text":"政府採購法是提供給政府機關進行各種採購的依據那至於機關他需要什麼不需要什麼機關他會記恆佐那關於是不是中置產品中資等等採購法以及相關規定或者是機敏的國安採購對相關的管制跟規定那我們也正在修正相關的來"},{"start":476.472,"end":497.652,"text":"工程會本身無法替每個機關想到他需要什麼去把它建立一個模組說你可以要這個不要那個我們在採購法是提供給大家來採購就我們就法律的修正原則性的來修正是可以能夠達到委員這個希望的這樣的要求啦謝謝主委因為我在地方政府過去也是擔任屬於"},{"start":498.533,"end":523.55,"text":"政府採購當中的一個參與者我了解工程會有提供這些資源服務包括評審名單等等等所以我要求的也不是說我們幫使用機關的政府做決定而是說我們幫他讓他提醒他有個檢核的表對於採購契約的限制條款有哪些是可以他們去應用去思考的不是幫他們訂定採購合約而是建議他們再有一個指引"},{"start":524.27,"end":536.919,"text":"我希望公共工程委員會可以訂一個指引然後呢在這個指引當中特別重視到我們現在要求的供應鏈的韌性所謂的供應鏈的韌性是對我們有安全妨礙的或是會不時的斷貨就是說任意斷貨不符合契約精神但是造成我們使用方的困擾的類似這種狀況的條款我們給它充實或者提供指引那幫助很多地方政府並沒有能力去研發他也不曉得買這個東西會有這個地雷"},{"start":552.671,"end":574.181,"text":"所以我是不是可以請工程會基於這樣的供應鏈韌性這個理由之一來對我們政府採購契約的限制條款提供一個指南或一個指引可以嗎就像副主委所講的必要的時候就再補充相關的解釋然後函班給各機關好謝謝主委那是不是這樣的一個作為可以提供給本席這邊來了解我們的進度或作為可以嗎謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時35分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關長官、委員會的工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生。有請陳主任委員。"],["主席：請主委。"],["鍾委員佳濱：跟公共工程採購業務有關的主管也請上來。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，其他的主管好。我想今天來請教，不只你是主委、你也是政委，我提到川普的關稅政策重視非紅供應鏈，政府採購是不是要排除特定地區來確保產地韌性，川普政策大家都了解，其實在4月到5月我們在經濟委員會關心一題，因為美國關稅的關係，他認為臺灣的汽車只要有中國成分35%，就視為中國車，要課以非常高的關稅，甚至禁止進口。但是在臺灣經濟部的規定，我們的整車產業，事實上，它的自製率要逐年調高到35%，今年8月以後才到30%，甚至我們知道臺灣的整車廠很多零組件是來自於對岸，因此就有委員質疑說，那這樣的車子，能符合美國對於非紅供應鏈的要求嗎？主委，你認為可不可以通過？"],["陳主任委員金德：這可能要請教美國吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要請教他，川普有沒有打電話給你？但是我得到進一步的答案是，臺灣的整車業沒有在賣美國市場，因為臺灣的整車業在美國市場沒有競爭力，所以我們這樣的設置，雖然跟美國認定標準不一樣，但是不受影響。臺灣供應鏈有很多來自中國，或是中國以外的第三地，這樣一個組成的產品，甚至來到臺灣組裝，可以供應給臺灣的本國市場嗎？"],["主席：這位是副主委？是陳副主委，對不起。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員你好，我想公共工程只有主管有關政府採購的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，這也是我要問你的下一題。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：所以我們的理解，應該是從政府採購的部分，因為我們有加入GPA，原則上它有一個原產地的原則，非成員國的產品，到底經過什麼樣的實質轉換，才會改變它的產地別？這部分的主管機關，據我所知，應該是在財政部有一個認定的辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是稅的問題，海關的認定問題，我在財政委員會，這我知道。好，既然你說政府採購，我就要問政府採購，其實美方關切的是非紅，但是我發現我們政府關切的是臺製、國製，譬如政府補助，如果是經濟部關鍵零組件，要符合、滿足我對這產業關鍵零組件，我才給你補助，這合理嘛！我政府要給你的錢，你必須滿足我的政策要求，主委，是不是這樣子？所以政府補助要求參與的業者，必須滿足政府的正面表列，我才給你補助，你同不同意？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想這是經濟部的業務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["陳主任委員金德：它如果符合經濟部的相關規定，我想應該就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在要問的是政府採購，但是政府採購我們可以在採購合約要求供應商限國產製品嗎？可不可以限制？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：可以，招標文件有寫就可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以限嘛！你怎麼認定它是國產製品？就是你說的，只要財政部認定是就是，你們是這樣的標準，對不對？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是主委，現在開始進入深水區了，我們公共採購可以要求自製率嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：非GPA的可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：非GPA的也可以要求自製率，好，那我可以要求供應產品的關鍵零組件必須是國產的嗎？我先問一個有關於資安的晶片，你們是把資訊產品要求自製率，還是要求國產製品，還是要求這些含有晶片的工程機具，必須不得有中國的零組件晶片？可以要求嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我們現在已經在契約範本裡面有要求了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，其實我今天要來談的是在公共工程的採購當中，因為我們的合約有其他WTO的一些規範，我們不能製造一些非關稅障礙，因此我們必須對全世界有能力的廠商提供開放，但是有正當理由的時候，我們還是可以限定，譬如我們採購的財貨，如果有屬於供應鏈韌性的問題，譬如這個產品或零組件是中國供應的，一旦它不供應了，我就買不到，因此我一開始就不跟你買，可不可以這樣？供應鏈韌性的部分，請教副主委。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，因為中國本來就不是GPA的會員，我們限制他們的產品是沒有問題的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全沒有關係。所以我們的公共工程採購合約可以明明白白地把各種要求都排除中國產製的零組件，可以嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：要看目的事業主管機關他們採購機關的需求，合約上面都可以要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以要拜託主委、也拜託政委，現在我們很多公共工程的採購合約，其實是一個標準的套裝，但是因應各個機關，我上次有問過，這要有一個檢核表，有些不同的機敏設施、不同的勞務採購，我們要嚴防資安風險，嚴防紅色供應鏈對我們服務的一些威脅，所以我希望未來公共工程委員會在提供這些契約模組的時候，請你們先幫這些可能應用到的機關先設想好有哪些模組，或者你們可以要求它全部限定是國產製品，或者你們要求它要有一定的自製率，或者你們要求它在關鍵零組件不得是哪些特定產地的，或是必須用本國產地的，尤其是像晶片、資安，甚至是一些會影響到我們供應鏈韌性的產品。","舉例來講，電動車在目前我們的政府採購合約裡面，並沒有要求電池不能使用中國製造的，我們都知道電動車市場裡面的電池，中國是最大的市場，可能也是做得最多、最好的。所以要用有競爭力的電動車，多半會採用中國的電池，但因為採購合約裡面沒有限制，因此得標廠商得標之後，往往面臨一個困局，他們能得標表示他們的CP值很高，他們可能必須使用最有競爭力的零組件來構成，但是一旦沒有得標的廠商來檢舉說：他們怎麼可以使用中國電池？請問工程會能夠裁定這個合約無效嗎？不行啊！但是使用機關會產生什麼很大的困擾？你買的電動車，結果裡面電池是中國製的，這個輿論披露還得了嗎？這個不見得是我們的契約精神，但是是社會上的常識認知會衝突，所以我要請主委及政委，拜託工程會針對這部分開始去做你們所有公共工程採購相關合約，不管是勞務採購、設備採購，還是工程採購，可以將這些模組研發出來。"],["陳主任委員金德：政府採購法是提供給政府機關進行各種採購的依據，至於機關他們需要什麼，不需要什麼，機關會去衡酌。關於是不是中製產品、中資等等，或是機敏的國安採購，在採購法都有相關的管制及規定，我們也正在修正相關的條款。","工程會本身無法替每個機關想到他們需要什麼，把它建立一個模組，要求你們可以要這個、不要那個。採購法是提供給大家來採購，我們就法條原則性的來修正，是可以能夠達到委員希望的要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委。因為我在地方政府過去也是擔任屬於政府採購當中的參與者，我了解工程會有提供這些資源服務，包括評審名單等等，所以我要求的也不是幫使用機關做決定，而是我們幫忙提醒他們有個檢核的表，對於採購契約的限制條款，有哪些是他們可以去應用、去思考的，不是幫他們訂定採購合約，而是我希望公共工程委員會可以訂一個指引，在這個指引當中，特別重視到我們現在要求的供應鏈韌性。","所謂供應鏈的韌性是對我們有安全妨礙的，或是會不時的斷貨，就是任意斷貨不符合契約精神，造成我們使用方困擾類似這種狀況的條款，我們給他們充實，或者提供指引，很多地方政府並沒有能力去研發，他們也不曉得買這個東西會有地雷，所以我是不是可以請工程會，基於這樣的供應鏈韌性，這是理由之一，來對我們政府採購契約的限制條款，提供一個指南或一個指引，可以嗎？就像剛副主委所提到的。"],["陳主任委員金德：必要的時候，會再補充相關的解釋，並函頒給各機關。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委。是不是這樣的作為，可以提供給本席這邊來了解你們的進度或作為，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564667e7323e2c874accd8722aad0b92e7f46063d171e8badfa857439106b1a09b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:28:07 - 11:35:12","影片長度":"00:07:05","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:28:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:35:12+08:00","duration":425,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.30096875,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.469093750000001,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.90284375,"end":38.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.43409375,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.03659375,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.49971875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.39784375,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.642218750000005,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.890968750000006,"end":59.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.51534375000001,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.299718750000004,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.03284375,"end":77.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.62221875,"end":82.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.76471875,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.19034375000001,"end":88.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.31659375000001,"end":90.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.66659375,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.21471875,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.08346875000001,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.62659375000001,"end":108.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.65909375000001,"end":114.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.97909375,"end":116.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.64971875,"end":118.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.46721875,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.25909375,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.89846875,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.82659375,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.32221875000002,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.69471875000002,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.47909375,"end":183.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.93034375000002,"end":195.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.63784375,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.86534375000002,"end":198.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.48096875000002,"end":200.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.47659375,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.56909375,"end":207.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.25596875000002,"end":214.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.66409375,"end":220.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.72221875000002,"end":222.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.02971875,"end":236.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.55096875,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.18284375000002,"end":290.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.61409375,"end":293.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.36471875,"end":295.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.72721875,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.82346875,"end":303.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.37096875000003,"end":309.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.29909375,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.04909375,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.58784375000005,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.02659375,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.02471875000003,"end":340.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.97346875,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.97721875,"end":345.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.33971875000003,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.87471875,"end":351.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.89159375,"end":351.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.90846875,"end":351.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.94221875,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.95909375,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.97596875000005,"end":357.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.35471875,"end":361.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.38846875,"end":358.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.13471875000005,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.29034375000003,"end":369.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.50471875000005,"end":378.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.45284375,"end":384.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.59534375000004,"end":387.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.29534375000003,"end":391.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.90221875000003,"end":399.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.05284375,"end":412.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.50659375000004,"end":412.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.52346875,"end":422.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.46284375000005,"end":423.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.86784375,"end":423.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.10409375,"end":423.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.96471875000003,"end":424.47096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.373,"end":5.055,"text":"好謝謝主席主席請工程會主委請主委"},{"start":11.576,"end":37.491,"text":"委員好主委好主委本席在今年的3月17日曾經就新北市的捷運山陰縣延伸到桃園巴的這一岸就是向您提出質詢那當時也特別提醒主委因為國際原物料價格持續上漲那會直接影響到工程的預算那延遲確定只會讓成本越來越高那本席當時也舉了三個國內公共工程的案例因為原物料波動而調漲的預算"},{"start":39.592,"end":66.708,"text":"預算的案例 那主委請問您還有印象嗎工程會本身針對物條的部分讓廠商能夠 就是執行中的啦如果物條的一些原則跟法規有在檢討啦有在檢討 那委員提的這個個案如果是因為的確是這樣的事情它的方向是應該是走修正計畫"},{"start":68.169,"end":82.75,"text":"是 本席當時也有向主委提出希望您能向院長反映那請行政院技術核定捷運31線延伸到桃園八德那距離上次質詢後剛好80天主委請問這段時間您有沒有跟院長提起這個案子"},{"start":84.083,"end":108.55,"text":"我們是整體性的跟院長提了很多案啦那有包含這一案嗎 有可以可以有沒有當這段時間你有沒有向院長提出這一案我記憶所提是個案沒有跟院長個案沒有提出那OK好那本期還今天還是要就三一線延伸到巴德這一案還有他相關的公共工程的問題就叫主委主委您知道目前三一線主體工程的進度到哪裡了嗎"},{"start":111.67,"end":130.699,"text":"我是不是我們有去查核工程會有沒有掌握主委沒關係因為時間因為時間的關係那根據最新的資料到今年4月他進度是83.19%沒錯那預計何時完工預計何時正式營運那工程會這邊知道嗎"},{"start":145.905,"end":165.016,"text":"我們會安排這條捷運線它預計今年會年底會完工然後明年正式營運那主委那這樣看下來你應該也不知道那今年4月21日的時候新北市長也都有帶人親自去市城然後還有視察看無人駕駛的測試那整體的工程進度已經到了最後的階段了"},{"start":165.476,"end":178.883,"text":"那我們看到捷運三星線延伸到巴德這個案子從去年9月30號交通部他送交行政院到今天為止已經拖258天都還沒有通過核定主委你知道這件事拖那麼久這樣的行政效率您認為合理嗎"},{"start":180.731,"end":194.567,"text":"原委員報告,不只是這個個案,有很多案在核定過程也因為種種因素,那麼有重新再檢討,那麼再審議,並不會是針對這個個案說258天沒有核定那這樣的行政效應您認為合理嗎?"},{"start":201.598,"end":221.855,"text":"不是行政效率有的大概基於整體的考量或是經費或者是相關因為時間的延宕他會影響到工程的經費那他已經卡在行政院258天那他這個計畫他的基電後擴期限也從去年的6月19號延到今年的6月19號那所以您知道這個嚴重性嗎"},{"start":224.219,"end":243.116,"text":"當然這個整個計劃能夠如期如止來解決民眾的需求是行政院一向的目標如果說有一些狀況不允許不只這個山陰縣還有其他重大建設整個進度也都"},{"start":243.756,"end":270.582,"text":"本期今天要和主委討論的是經費的問題因為是時間上面行政效率的問題那我這邊要舉我們桃園綠線延伸到中壢的後擴經費大漲的案例嘛那這個計畫原本是在2017年後擴它預算編列90億2018年呢決標調整到97億那沒有想到當時呢隨著COVID-19還有烏鴉戰爭還有缺工缺料等因素加上美國關稅等種種因素影響下"},{"start":271.542,"end":293.211,"text":"那最後在2025年也就是今年他調漲到了220億從原先編列的90億調漲到了221億他的漲幅呢非常驚人高達144%那本不希望捷運三陰線他變成下一個代價高昂的拖延那書偉這部分您能來協助嗎我想這個"},{"start":296.772,"end":310.467,"text":"增為220億的部分不單純是物條不單純是物價那會有怎樣的新因素 請主委說明我印象所及這個縣應該有一些涉戰的涉戰或設計的改變的問題那"},{"start":316.153,"end":334.389,"text":"其他的重大建設我想行政院會整體來考量優先次序然後盡量滿足地方的需求是 那本席剛剛也有提到這條三陰線延伸到桃園八德它如果沒有辦法在今年6月19號獲得核定那它一定接下來也會經費也會實質的暴增"},{"start":337.062,"end":350.135,"text":"那這個經費到時候又是由地方政府來負擔那主委你也擔任過宜蘭縣的代理縣長沒有錯吧那你知道對這個這個費用的保證對地方政府的財政"},{"start":352.378,"end":369.23,"text":"會帶來什麼樣的影響這個同樣對中央政府的主管機關也帶來很大的壓力是很大的壓力那既然是地方除了地方的這個經費之外中央也會補助所以同樣都會有壓力"},{"start":370.569,"end":390.345,"text":"是 那本席要跟主委這邊反映嘛就是說過去行政院他以LB12A跟LB13這兩戰他的出戰人數還有運量不足的問題他遲遲不肯核定那本席也有向桃園市政府提出多次協調提出對策嘛那對於這兩戰市府認為有涉戰的必要性建議保留"},{"start":391.966,"end":412.226,"text":"另外LB12A站市政府則是暫時從站不設立那如果對都市發展有需求的話他可以再後續再進行擴充設站那您是工程會的主委也是政務委員您認為地方政府都已經做出務實的妥協跟回應了那行政院還有什麼理由再來卡關呢"},{"start":412.757,"end":424.028,"text":"好 這個我會跟交通部來瞭解是 那什麼時候可以有得到主委的回覆我跟交通部瞭解整個狀況之後再跟委員報告OK 好 再請主委協助 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時28分）謝謝主席，請工程會主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。主委，本席在今年3月17日曾經就新北市的捷運三鶯線延伸到桃園八德這案向您提出質詢，當時也特別提醒主委，因為國際原物料價格持續上漲會直接影響到工程的預算，延遲核定只會讓成本越來越高，本席當時也舉了3個國內公共工程因為原物料波動而調漲預算的案例，請問您還有印象嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會本身針對物調的部分，對執行中的案子，即讓廠商能夠物調的一些原則跟法規有在檢討。委員提的個案，這樣的事情，它的方向應該是走修正計畫。"],["邱委員若華：是，本席當時也有向主委提出，希望您能向院長反映請行政院儘速核定捷運三鶯線延伸到桃園八德，距離上次質詢後剛好80天，主委，請問這段時間，您有沒有跟院長提起這個案子？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們是整體性的跟院長提了很多案啦！"],["邱委員若華：是，有包含這一案嗎？這段時間內有沒有向院長提出這一案？"],["陳主任委員金德：我記憶所及就個案沒有跟院長……"],["邱委員若華：個案沒有提，OK，好，本席今天還是要就三鶯線延伸到八德這一案，還有相關公共工程的問題，就教主委。主委，您知道目前三鶯線主體工程的進度到哪裡嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們有去查核。"],["邱委員若華：工程會有沒有掌握？主委，沒關係，因為時間的關係，根據最新的資料到今年4月它的進度是83.49%，預計何時完工？預計何時正式營運？工程會知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會安排時間去查核。"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，這條捷運線預計今年年底會完工，明年正式營運，主委這樣看下來，你應該也不知道，今年4月21日的時候，新北市長都有帶人親自試乘，還有視察無人駕駛的測試，整體的工程進度已經到最後的階段，我們看到捷運三鶯線延伸到八德案，從去年9月30號交通部送交行政院，到今天為止已經拖了258天，都還沒有通過核定。主委，這件事拖那麼久，這樣的行政效率，您認為合理嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，不只是這個個案，有很多案在核定過程因為種種因素，有重新再檢討、再審議，並不會針對這個個案已經258天沒有核定。"],["邱委員若華：這樣的行政效率，您認為合理嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是行政效率，有的大概基於整體的考量，或是經費、相關問題……"],["邱委員若華：因為時間的延宕會影響到工程的經費，它已經卡在行政院258天，這個計畫的機電後擴期限也從去年6月19號延到今年6月19號，主委，您知道這個嚴重性嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：整個計畫能夠如期來完成，解決民眾的需求，這是行政院一向的目標。"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果有一些狀況不允許，不止三鶯線，還有其他重大建設，整個進度也都……"],["邱委員若華：本席今天要和主委討論的是經費問題，因為是時間上行政效率的問題，我這邊要舉我們桃園綠線延伸到中壢的後擴經費大漲案例，這個計畫原本是在2017年後擴，預算編列90億，2018年決標調整到97億，沒有想到當時隨著COVID-19、烏俄戰爭，缺工、缺料等因素，加上美國關稅等種種因素影響下，最後在2025（今）年從原先編列的90億調漲到220億，它的漲幅非常驚人，高達144%，本席不希望捷運三鶯線變成下一個代價高昂的拖延案子，主委，這部分您能協助嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想增為220億的部分，不單純是物價調整……"],["邱委員若華：那會有什麼樣的新因素？請主委說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：我印象所及，桃園捷運綠線應該有一些設站或設計改變的問題，其他的重大建設，我想行政院會整體來考量優先次序，儘量滿足地方的需求。"],["邱委員若華：是，本席剛剛也有提到這條三鶯線延伸到桃園八德，如果沒有辦法在今年6月19號獲得核定，它接下來一定經費會實質的暴增，這個經費到時候又是由地方政府來負擔。主委，你也擔任過宜蘭縣代理縣長，沒有錯吧？那你知道費用的暴增，對地方政府的財政會帶來什麼樣的影響？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個同樣會對中央政府主管機關也帶來很大的壓力，除了地方的經費之外，中央也會補助，所以同樣都會有壓力。"],["邱委員若華：是，本席要跟主委反映，過去行政院以LB12a跟LB13這兩站的出站人數，還有運量不足的問題，遲遲不肯核定，本席也有向桃園市政府多次協調、提出對策，對於這兩站，市府認為有設站的必要性，建議保留，另外LB12a站市政府則暫不設立，如果對未來都市發展有需求的話，它可以後續再進行擴充設站。您是工程會的主委也是政務委員，您認為地方政府都已經做出務實的妥協跟回應了，行政院還有什麼理由卡關呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我會跟交通部了解。"],["邱委員若華：是，什麼時候可以得到主委的回復？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟交通部了解整個狀況之後，再跟委員報告。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，再請主委協助，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564dda062b9669fbeb3cd8722aad0b92e7f46063d171e8badfad3df1470de2396d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:17:24 - 11:27:49","影片長度":"00:10:25","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:17:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:27:49+08:00","duration":625,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.27971875,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.127218750000001,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.438468750000002,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.80034375,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.55846875,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.78534375,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.64534375000001,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.37909375000001,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.14659375000001,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.87221875,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.71596875,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.64409375000001,"end":72.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.72846875,"end":72.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.38159375000001,"end":126.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.45846875000001,"end":160.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.12846875,"end":133.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.90034375000002,"end":177.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.47159375,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.49221875,"end":184.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.59346875,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.71096875,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.70846875,"end":200.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.84346875,"end":201.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.13034375,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.03284375,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.28534375,"end":229.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.10471875000002,"end":232.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.33221875,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.93971875000003,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.86096875,"end":251.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.46346875,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.49284375,"end":257.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.50596875,"end":313.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.12534375,"end":316.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.70284375,"end":337.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.50971875000005,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.40409375,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.03471875,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.43534375,"end":355.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.48596875000004,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.29471875,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.31909375000004,"end":370.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.97721875,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.84096875,"end":392.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.65721875,"end":397.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.29784375,"end":399.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.98534375,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.97221875,"end":411.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.59534375000004,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.15159375,"end":422.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.54284375000003,"end":425.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.61846875000003,"end":425.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.85471875,"end":432.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.84096875,"end":435.82784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.16534375000003,"end":439.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.70909375,"end":441.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.31221875000006,"end":454.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.01471875000004,"end":455.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.02721875000003,"end":458.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.32221875000005,"end":460.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.38971875000004,"end":458.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.16159375,"end":464.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.97096875000005,"end":472.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.80096875000004,"end":495.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.64971875000003,"end":499.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.51409375000003,"end":519.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":521.72159375,"end":535.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.10346875,"end":544.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.17784375,"end":556.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.29096875,"end":550.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.5815937500001,"end":554.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.5347187500001,"end":596.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.65596875,"end":563.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.0390937500001,"end":606.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.38346875,"end":607.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.78409375,"end":616.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.8459687500001,"end":620.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.2378437500001,"end":620.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.3390937500001,"end":621.6047187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.308,"end":3.878,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委"},{"start":11.448,"end":38,"text":"好委員好主委好主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合併說從六月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠流採的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微就澄清就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎"},{"start":41.101,"end":66.242,"text":"他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公墓買來的高嘛那我們也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向您會支持嗎還是說您會怎麼樣考慮我們"},{"start":72.011,"end":98.357,"text":"請副主委來說明因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了那麼有關行政機關土木工程人員的這個人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年那麼行政局已經有做過檢討那麼已經有這個建立了一些譬如說9任的一個獎金的一個制度啦"},{"start":98.897,"end":125.816,"text":"那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啦他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能"},{"start":126.736,"end":141.816,"text":"覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高啦確實是這樣子這部會有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫啦也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方"},{"start":142.837,"end":159.937,"text":"所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理"},{"start":161.298,"end":179.174,"text":"好 謝謝我想 既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦 就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承 能夠留才我想這對公務機關 對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩 好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照"},{"start":181.115,"end":199.965,"text":"可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照"},{"start":201.286,"end":228.807,"text":"所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個罪有力標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個罪有力標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我要講就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致"},{"start":230.208,"end":249.093,"text":"好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼那麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好"},{"start":256.822,"end":272.927,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為它是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情"},{"start":273.467,"end":301.806,"text":"那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分"},{"start":302.566,"end":316.143,"text":"每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是114件 120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼"},{"start":319.162,"end":334.466,"text":"這應該是說 集合的啟動 實際上我們一個是移送集合 另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8%"},{"start":339.528,"end":353.837,"text":"6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個"},{"start":355.558,"end":377.896,"text":"既然有這樣的數據喔 因為剛才也提到了 包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚 因為其實就我所說 因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照的啊 他才能去辦採購嘛 對吧那這考試內容有問題呢 還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是很想知道說到底是什麼原因 你如果說"},{"start":378.917,"end":400.737,"text":"前兩年 假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年 當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但是我想 採購法上路那麼多年那每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦那前面幾年數據高 大家可以理解那後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決啊"},{"start":403.018,"end":422.421,"text":"那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得"},{"start":423.767,"end":442.862,"text":"會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定"},{"start":443.602,"end":463.876,"text":"那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實"},{"start":465.297,"end":485.403,"text":"過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞一個是公私停權"},{"start":486.383,"end":497.126,"text":"但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法"},{"start":504.168,"end":519.241,"text":"那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來"},{"start":523.58,"end":540.253,"text":"這個有關整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商不只是得標廠商可能包括它的供應商包括它的分包商原則上面我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員會一併來檢討"},{"start":545.222,"end":569.389,"text":"那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險"},{"start":571.73,"end":593.517,"text":"我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據"},{"start":595.638,"end":621.169,"text":"所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致的啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時17分）謝謝主席，請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：主委好。我想今天大家都想要為土木技師來稍微發點聲，我提一個案例，當然，今年行政院核定從6月開始，像公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金，希望能夠達到公務機關留才的目的。當然，前面有委員提到，包含我們也收到一些陳情，就是在土木技師這個行業類別裡面，他去業界開業的收入、待遇，相對來講會比留在公部門來得高，但是我們也期待工程會，或是各單位的土木技師的工作經驗能夠傳承。所以想問一下主委，對於土木技師這個類別的公務人員，如果也編列不開業獎金，這個方向你會支持嗎？還是你有什麼樣的考慮？"],["陳主任委員金德：請副主委來說明，因為這個已經有相關的獎金，已經在執行了。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員好。有關行政機關的土木工程人員人才流失，確實是一個全面性的問題，所以大概在去年行政院就已經有做過檢討，已經有建立了一些，譬如久任獎金的制度。當然，目前可能還要看看實行的成效，但是同時也要搭配整體制度，譬如要不要去檢討考試的制度、要不要特別針對他們的職等、權責調整。我們也有去統計這些離開公務體系的人，他們最care的點，包括他們覺得風險很高，因為他們可能覺得在專業上執行業務的時候，很有可能會被認為是違法。"],["黃委員健豪：訴訟風險很高，確實是這樣。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：所以我們這部分有跟法務部討論，也希望建立聯繫，讓他們了解這些專業人員在執行職務的時候是有他們特別的地方，所以是雙向做溝通。至於要不要再有所謂的不開業獎金，聽起來目前是有比較大的意見，可能還相當保留，但是我想看目前這幾個措施執行的狀況，再看看後面要不要再繼續處理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝，我想既然工程會有在準備，我們還是希望把這樣的考量列進去啦，就是怎樣讓經驗能夠傳承、能夠留才，我想這對公務機關，對整個國家都是好事，不然所有人都跑去業界了，對政府也是很麻煩，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為到業界他還有技師執照可以被聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛，他在公務機關就不能兼任職務，所以證照對他來講是沒有用的，但是像土木、營建、大地工程、結構技師，有時候一個人會考取3、4張執照，所以執行起來也要稍微評估看看。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委謝謝。接下來，我們討論這個數據，我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候，以最有利標異常案件來看，這幾年來每年最有利標異常案件都數十到上百件，但真的移送稽核的案件外傳就是個位數，當然每年檢討的報告大部分都是所謂的「誤繕決標公告」或「誤解法規」所致。我想問，因為採購是有證照的，要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這個業務都很熟悉，那第一個，為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性、不斷在發生的最有利標異常案件？以及移送稽核案件為什麼這麼少？這個問題到底出在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請主秘來說。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟委員報告，有關於誤繕決標公告或不了解法規部分，因為採購法是比較細緻的規定，所以有一些細節上要注意的事情。這部分我們是從源頭開始去處理，第一個，在辦採購的時候，我們是要求一定金額以上的採購案要有採購專業人員來參與；第二個，我們會持續去強化採購人員和在職人員的訓練，就委員指導的異常案件比率，我們會再去加強，讓異常案件能夠降低。"],["黃委員健豪：關於移送的部分，因為每年都幾十件，當然最嚴重是110年的120件嘛，我們就不管具體原因是什麼，我想光是移送稽核案件的比例也偏低，為什麼移送稽核的比例這麼低，原因是什麼？"],["羅主任秘書天健：應該說稽核的啟動，實際上我們一個是移送稽核，另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動稽核的目標，所以我們每年去稽核的比例我記得有6%，我們是有設定目標值，縱使沒有其他狀況，各機關的稽核小組或工程會的稽核小組都會去稽核，所以可能實際的稽核件數會比這個還多。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主秘，既然有這樣的數據，剛才也提到了，包含你說要去要求第一線採購人員把法規弄清楚，其實就我所知，政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有訓練跟考照才能去辦採購嘛，對吧？是考試內容有問題呢？還是他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況？因為我只是想知道到底是什麼原因，你如果說前2年或是說一開始時，假設採購法剛上路，所以前面有幾年當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題，但是我想採購法上路那麼多年，每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購，各地方政府、各機關都有在辦。前面幾年數據高，大家可以理解，但後面幾年數據還是很高，這到底要怎麼解決？"],["羅主任秘書天健：我們會再去確實的了解發生問題的原因，針對問題去處理。"],["黃委員健豪：這個拜託一下，你們檢討完之後，是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告，讓大家知道到底原因出在哪，不然每年的比例這麼高，我想對政府機關的形象或委員在看會覺得很奇怪啦，主委，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們也正在修訂政府採購法，原政府採購法或者相關的子法有的部分或是其他相關的規定，的確文字比較不清楚，這也是列入我們再重新檢討的地方，我們儘量讓採購法的法律或相關子法、相關規定都很清楚，讓主辦採購機關比較不會誤解法規，這也是我們要做的部分。"],["黃委員健豪：好。主委，講到採購法，我再多問一下，其實過去常常很多新聞事件，不管像之前講的防彈衣等等，採購的一些狀況都會講到黑心廠商屢次得標，當然依法來講，如果是廠商有問題就不能來投標，但現在問題是廠商跟負責人好像是分開，有兩個漏洞，一個是公司停權，但負責人沒有被停權，所以他另外去處理就可以來投；另外一個可能就是自己被停權，就跟得標廠商去簽約分包，類似這樣的樣態，業界也確實都這樣處理啦！我不知道假設你們要檢討採購法，這個部分的漏洞也要補起來嘛！因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情，但後來多數委員考量當時的情況、環境背景下就沒有做了，但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生，我不知道工程委員的立場怎麼樣？你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，有關整個履約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商，不只是得標廠商，可能包括它的供應商、它的分包商，原則上我們是會就整個全面性有參與政府採購系統接觸的人員會一併來檢討啦！譬如說他被停權了，可能另外設了其他新的公司，或者他已經有在經營其他的公司，目前採購法沒有就這部分處理，我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果及於……因為他在經營嘛，所以他潛在就會產生很大將來可能違約的風險，我們有往這方面來修正，可能到時候到大院，要請大院來支持這樣的作法。目前我們採用一個過渡性的作法，假設是在最有利標的話，這個停權廠商的負責人，當他的其他廠商來投標，我們會把他列到實績不良裡面，讓機關在評選的時候有參考的依據。"],["黃委員健豪：所以方向上看起來是一致啦，最後還是要追到自然人，不能只用公司當作標的嘛，最後標的是自然人為主，主委是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我想這個漏洞有機會補起來，我們就期待你們趕快把這個漏洞補起來，然後趕快提出相關的版本，我想多數委員應該會支持啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：下個會期會送到大院來審議。"],["黃委員健豪：好，OK，主委謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5643dc098d755ccc67e33769fbc08eef2e946063d171e8badfac5eb4435e8f3c8585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:30:59 - 11:43:06","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:30:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:43:06+08:00","duration":727,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.25409375,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.079718750000001,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.09659375,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.113468750000003,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.660968750000002,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.500343750000003,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.04034375,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.57409375,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.69221875,"end":35.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.05409375,"end":41.290343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.34846875,"end":48.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.83346875,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.727843750000005,"end":77.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.50409375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.30909375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.94471875,"end":66.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.79096875,"end":81.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.55409375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.59159375,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.00471875000001,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.96221875,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.77221875000001,"end":116.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.36221875000001,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.95221875000001,"end":140.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.56159375000001,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.16846875000002,"end":159.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.02909375000002,"end":148.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.13409375,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.79596875000001,"end":153.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.61784375000002,"end":162.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.21221875,"end":164.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.73096875000002,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.54034375,"end":200.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.45534375000003,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.06659375,"end":233.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.52596875,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.43221875,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.81971875000002,"end":248.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.32534375,"end":265.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.99784375,"end":269.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.36846875000003,"end":271.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.80284375,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.73471875,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.59409375,"end":291.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.03596875,"end":294.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.27596875,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.02159375,"end":312.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.34909375,"end":319.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.08221875000004,"end":343.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.55534375,"end":348.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.88784375,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.62034375,"end":373.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.47034375000004,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.02221875000004,"end":381.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.38909375000003,"end":451.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.12034375,"end":456.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.02284375000005,"end":463.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.14846875,"end":465.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.28721875,"end":476.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.83409375,"end":476.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.85096875000005,"end":476.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.90159375,"end":477.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.28971875,"end":478.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.39096875,"end":504.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.70534375000005,"end":492.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.25596875,"end":510.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.02284375000005,"end":530.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.6103437500001,"end":533.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.1965937500001,"end":534.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.1203437500001,"end":591.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.9890937499999,"end":602.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.0590937500001,"end":613.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.2978437500001,"end":617.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.06096875,"end":619.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.80284375,"end":669.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.6653437500001,"end":638.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.0659687500001,"end":667.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.39909375,"end":713.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.67471875,"end":720.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.7084687500001,"end":713.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.9865937500001,"end":716.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.58096875,"end":720.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.27284375,"end":720.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.94784375,"end":721.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.4878437500001,"end":723.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.57221875,"end":722.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.05284375,"end":727.9678437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.611,"end":6.273,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請次長次長好我們的世界遺產的潛力點目前是有18個嘛那如果說18個當中挑個兩個次長您覺得哪兩個最有機會去升登參與這個世界遺產的評選"},{"start":34.585,"end":47.459,"text":"您個人我個人不敢挑只是我們推動會裡面的委員們曾經討論過這個議題目前大家是希望先推阿里山的林業暨鐵道文化景觀李鴻"},{"start":49.841,"end":76.358,"text":"理由啊那當然一方面是高山鐵路這個是它有一個世界的共通性那可是這個共通性因為世界的這個高山鐵路也幾乎都在沒落都需要保存的地體所以這還有一個國際連結的部分那我們阿里山的鐵路一方面它的施工的工法跟它使用的火車頭目前來講都已經是在世界保存上是剩下唯一的一個所以我們認為那個"},{"start":77.919,"end":98.933,"text":"我們也邀集了一些國外的委員包括UNESCO專門負責世界遺產的我們請他私底下來看過我們所有的案子之後其實都是建議說可能先以阿里山這個作為推動的主要目標可是我們其他的潛力點並沒有放棄基礎工作都還是一直在持續努力的"},{"start":99.753,"end":115.604,"text":"那我想再請教次長就是如果我們來看全世界各地的世界遺產就是最容易出現在你腦海中的會是哪一個或者你去過哪裡又或者你最嚮往去哪裡"},{"start":117.246,"end":138.724,"text":"當然比較知道這個吳哥窟嘛然後又或者是金字塔這一些就是在觀光上面它其實是一個非常有名的一個世界遺產的據點那也就是說如果我們能夠爭取到有所謂的世界遺產其實對我們的整個觀光也是有很大的一個幫助那我請次長您來看一下這顆石頭您有沒有看過"},{"start":146.592,"end":150.937,"text":"這是泰雅族的SvayamSvayam就是公認泰雅民族的起源地"},{"start":163.271,"end":178.74,"text":"這很特別喔因為泰雅族就是根據研究他至少在這個地方起源是六千年前這是共同的歷史記憶而且更特別的是目前泰雅族分散在"},{"start":179.4,"end":195.691,"text":"台灣我們七個縣市但是他們就是公認共同的起源地就是這個地方這個跟我們一般的其他族群以我們排灣魯凱族來講可能隔壁的部落我們的起源神話就不一樣"},{"start":196.636,"end":218.693,"text":"但是泰雅族分散在七個縣市卻有共同的一個起源地我覺得這個很不容易那我也曾經很關心這個案子在五年前我也特別跟文資局那個地方就是有幫忙他們去申請泰雅族的遷徙路徑再造歷史場域計畫"},{"start":220.194,"end":248.225,"text":"還有泰雅起源地境但是說實在 山景這些都我感受到地方感受到有一些些的困擾就是大家很難理解就是他就覺得他就一顆石頭然後跟泰雅自己族人原住民自己的感受完全不一樣那很高興的就是好不容易爭取了十多年終於在今年的年初"},{"start":249.417,"end":274.645,"text":"一月他已經申請到國家重要文資的一個身份那我們也會很希望說像這樣的一個有六千年歷史然後大家認為這個就是我們的起源地發散地而且呢他也正好位在台灣的整個心臟所以這個是一個如果說我們要拿來論述做文本"},{"start":275.779,"end":301.367,"text":"它其實是一個很棒的一個論述很棒的一個文本但是我會提到這個的原因是因為我覺得即便我們覺得多珍貴可能跟我們所制定的這些規範法律其實蠻辛苦的要爭取經費蠻辛苦的那我知道的是台灣世界遺產潛力點的遴選及除名作業要點"},{"start":303.103,"end":318.933,"text":"有很重要的就是提到管理 維護 監測 防救這也是各國世界遺產它面臨的一個保存危機那在這個地方我就很想要講的就是我們的這個保存"},{"start":320.151,"end":347.914,"text":"很重要那以我們目前這18處的潛力點我看到第17個第18個以排灣族盧凱族的石板屋來講屏東縣政府的提案跟台東縣政府的蘭嶼聚落與自然景觀那會提到說石板屋文本篆理的進度完成這個先期調研那蘭嶼的是文本篆理進度是已完成"},{"start":348.936,"end":373.039,"text":"那其實這個部分我們來看一下因為我也很關心舉個例子像我們的這個屏東縣政府的排灣族及盧凱族的石板屋聚落那我之前也希望說他能夠有一個用文資局這邊的保存維護計畫像我們看一下老七家以這個老七家來講他在2022年他有發生火災"},{"start":374.52,"end":398.093,"text":"那很高興有申請到一筆經費2023年的7月就修復然後呢2024年5月又申請到兩棟的一個搶修加固那實際上老七家石板屋或者是舊排灣石板屋它是一個很漂亮的一個聚落都還看得到那些石板屋如果要加那些斷元"},{"start":399.614,"end":415.349,"text":"蠶幣的像那些老的、舊的、來亦的舊石板屋群其實我們可以建構一個南部山區可以去恢復一個非常美麗的很多的石板屋聚落但是很辛苦的就是我們要透過重重的關卡什麼取得文資身份啊要加什麼計畫"},{"start":421.155,"end":429.741,"text":"但實際上這一些你看這個是目前我們生活的部落原本他可能在二三十年前還在部落當中的這些石板屋可是他也已經清皮毀壞那我們也不懂說還要按照國家的規矩去申請文資才能夠有修復的錢有的沒的其實蠻辛苦的我想在這個地方先請教一下次長"},{"start":445.091,"end":445.833,"text":"我講這樣的時候 您有什麼樣的想法可以去搶救這一些東西"},{"start":454.524,"end":475.414,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想怎麼樣搶救這個部落裡頭的 包括鮮明的智慧這是文化遺產這件事情這是很美麗的遺產但是很辛苦每次一想到那些計畫 核銷還要先申請文資身份這樣那樣很辛苦我們明明就是在跟時間賽跑"},{"start":477.455,"end":490.163,"text":"很辛苦我想文化部文思局能做的事情還是盡量我們在現有法因為每一筆預算的支出都必須要有法源也有根據也有計劃書那當然我們希望但是我們可以把規則弄得簡單一點快速一點吧怎麼樣更快速"},{"start":493.985,"end":509.952,"text":"所以我想這件事情如何讓申請的程序更簡化或是用實刊來代替文字用這些事情來怎麼取代我們來努力演繹一下這很多都是千年古城都非常的美麗在我看來非常具有潛力"},{"start":511.132,"end":528.751,"text":"好 那我再舉一個例子 你們的第18項 蘭嶼那蘭嶼呢 你們有提到了 就是平板舟然後他們的地下屋好 那我們來看一下齁 那個蘭嶼巴丹島的航行計畫齁今年秋天要開始 次長你有聽說過這個計畫嗎"},{"start":533.319,"end":546.688,"text":"文總有補助文化總會有補助原民會也有補助那這個他們走的這個航道您看到的這個箭頭雙箭頭他就是三百年"},{"start":547.549,"end":573.469,"text":"的一個海洋谷 他們已經有300年這是一個海洋谷到300年已經沒有航行了那這一次是恢復首航用拼板舟 然後60個人一班次20個人 三班次這樣子要航行到三天的時間 三天兩夜要從蘭嶼要航行到巴丹島那這是300年的一個首航"},{"start":574.69,"end":601.513,"text":"他們目前還有百分之六十的語言可以相通但是他們巴丹島的地下屋啊已經消失兩百年因為被西班牙統治過殖民過所以呢蘭嶼還有地下屋也需要搶救那我是要這樣子說關於這個蘭嶼巴丹島的航行計畫我們來看一下絲綢之路已經是世界遺產"},{"start":603.403,"end":618.702,"text":"鄭和下西洋 泉州到南洋的海上絲路也準備申請世界遺產我就不曉得說 我們文化部有沒有這個感動蘭嶼 巴丹島 這個海洋古道有沒有計畫要來申請啊"},{"start":622.827,"end":640.572,"text":"跟委員說明一下的確我就是透過文化總會來跟我們提這個案子那文化總會當時希望文化部能夠協助的就是說如果這一條行這樣我們怎麼樣給予一些宣傳讓大家知道有要做這樣子一件偉大的事情那就是"},{"start":641.192,"end":665.139,"text":"不巧的今年度文化部的所有文化宣傳行銷費用被刪到零所以在這一塊目前為止我們沒有辦法協助文化總會去做這件事情可是剛剛以委員跟我們的一個建議的說明我發現說如果這一條古道他或許我們在文資的身份上我們來考慮用什麼方法讓他可以在文資上面獲得一定的"},{"start":666.539,"end":669.522,"text":"所謂法定的身份 然後我們來給予協助那我想你們也有講這個遺產力的計畫就是建制跨國合作的機制是很重要的所以我特別就是希望說請文資局能夠針對世界遺產潛力點的這些現況整合盤點那加速我們講的這些很重要的它的文本的一個篆擬"},{"start":688.562,"end":693.506,"text":"然後強化更重要的是他的保存維護計畫希望可以更簡便更快速不要讓大家覺得要等很久很複雜那也希望對於申請這種世界遺產國際合作的可能也能夠積極的來協助辦理"},{"start":706.856,"end":722.957,"text":"那次長我提出這樣的訴求那希望呢我們能夠很積極的態度來協助好嗎好謝謝委員那只是說報告的部分我們一定會做好時間能不能稍微給多一點的時間給兩個月好嗎OK好謝謝次長謝謝您謝謝局長謝謝好謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員次長請回我們接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。我們的世界遺產潛力點目前是有18個嘛！"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果說18個當中挑2個，次長，您個人覺得哪2個最有機會去申登參與世界遺產評選？"],["李次長靜慧：我個人不敢挑，只是我們推動會裡面的委員們曾經討論過這個議題，目前大家是希望先推阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：理由是？"],["李次長靜慧：理由啊？當然一方面是高山鐵路有一個世界的共通性，這個共通性，因為世界的高山鐵路也幾乎都在沒落，都需要保存，所以它有一個國際連結的部分。我們阿里山的鐵路一方面施工工法跟使用的火車頭，目前來講在世界保存上已經是剩下唯一的一個。我們也邀集了一些國外的委員，包括UNESCO專門負責世界遺產的，我們私底下請他來看過我們所有案子之後，就是建議可能先以阿里山這個作為推動的主要目標，可是我們其他的潛力點並沒有放棄，基礎工作都還是一直在持續努力的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我想再請教次長，如果我們看全世界各地的世界遺產，最容易出現在你腦海中的會是哪一個？或者你去過哪裡？又或者你最嚮往去哪裡？"],["李次長靜慧：當然比較知道的就是吳哥窟，又或者是金字塔，這些在觀光上面其實是非常有名的世界遺產據點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。也就是說如果我們能夠爭取到有所謂的世界遺產，其實對我們整個觀光也是有很大的幫助。我請次長，您來看一下這顆石頭，您有沒有看過？"],["李次長靜慧：抱歉，我不知道，局長應該知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：局長可能看過。"],["陳局長濟民：這應該是Sbayan。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，謝謝文資局長。對，這是泰雅族的Sbayan，Sbayan就是公認泰雅民族的一個起源地。這很特別，根據研究，泰雅族至少在這個地方起源是六千年前，這是共同的歷史記憶，而且更特別的是目前泰雅族分散在臺灣7個縣市，但是公認他們共同的起源地就是這個地方，這跟我們一般其他族群，以排灣族、魯凱族來講，可能隔壁部落的起源神話就不一樣。泰雅族分散在7個縣市，卻有共同起源地，我覺得這很不容易。我也曾經很關心這個案子，在五年前我也特別跟文資局一起針對那個地方，幫忙他們申請泰雅族遷徙路徑再造歷史現場計畫，還有泰雅起源地計畫，但是說實在申請這些計畫，我感受到地方有一些困擾，因為大家很難理解，覺得它就是一顆石頭，然後跟泰雅族人自己的感受完全不一樣。很高興的是爭取了十多年，好不容易終於在今年年初，1月已經申請到國家重要文資的身分。","我們也會很希望像這樣有6,000年歷史，大家認為這個就是我們的起源地、發散地，而且它也正好位在臺灣的心臟，如果我們要拿來論述、做文本，它其實是一個很棒的論述、很棒的文本。我會提到這個的原因，是因為我覺得即便我們覺得多珍貴，可能跟我們所制定的這些規範、法律，其實要爭取經費蠻辛苦的，我知道的是臺灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點，有提到很重要的管理、維護、監測、防救，這也是各國世界遺產面臨的保存危機。在此，我很想要講我們的保存很重要，以我們目前這18處的潛力點，我看到第17、18個，屏東縣政府的提案是排灣族及魯凱族的石板屋聚落，跟臺東縣政府的蘭嶼聚落與自然景觀，第17個提到石板屋文本撰擬的進度已完成先期調研作業；第18個蘭嶼的案子文本撰擬進度是已完成。","這部分我也很關心，我們來看一下，舉個例子，像屏東縣政府的排灣族及魯凱族的石板屋聚落，我之前也希望它能夠用文資局的保存維護計畫。像以老七佳來講，它在2022年有發生火災，很高興有申請到一筆經費，2023年7月就完成修復，2024年5月又申請到2棟搶修加固，實際上老七佳石板屋或是舊排灣石板屋，它是很漂亮的聚落，都還看得到那些石板屋。如果要加斷垣殘壁，像那些老的、舊的來義鄉石板屋群，其實我們可以建構一個南部山區，去恢復非常美麗很多的石板屋聚落，但是很辛苦的是我們要透過重重關卡，例如取得文資身分、加什麼計畫。但實際上，你看這是目前我們生活的部落，原本它二、三十年前可能還在部落當中的這些石板屋，可是也已經傾圮毀壞，我們也不懂還要按照國家的規矩去申請文資才能有修復的錢等等，其實蠻辛苦的。我想先請教一下次長，我講這些的時候，您有什麼想法可以去搶救這一些東西？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提問，我想怎麼搶救部落裡頭，包含先民的智慧，這些文化遺產這件事情……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這是很美麗的遺產，但是很辛苦，每次一想到那些計畫、核銷，還要先申請文資身分等等，這很辛苦。我們明明就是在跟時間賽跑。"],["李次長靜慧：文化部文資局能做的事情，因為每一筆預算的支出都必須要有法源、要有根據、要有計畫書，當然我們希望……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我們可以把規則弄得簡單一點、快速一點。"],["李次長靜慧：我想這件事情如何讓申請的程序更簡化，或是用實勘代替文字，用這些事情怎麼取代的方式，這我們來努力研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這很多都是千年古城，都非常的美麗，在我看來非常具有潛力。我再舉一個例子，第18項蘭嶼，你們有提到拼板舟、他們的地下屋。我們來看一下蘭嶼巴丹島的航行計畫，今年秋天要開始，次長，你有聽說過這個計畫嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我有看過這個計畫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：文化總會有補助，原民會也有補助。他們走的這個航道，您看這個雙箭頭，它是一個海洋古道，已經300年沒有航行了，這一次是恢復首航，用拼板舟從蘭嶼航行到巴丹島，一班次20個人，總共三班次共60個人，要航行三天兩夜的時間，這是300年的首航。他們目前還有60%的語言可以相通，但是巴丹島的地下屋已經消失200年，因為被西班牙統治殖民過，所以蘭嶼還有地下屋也需要搶救。我要說關於蘭嶼巴丹島的航行計畫，我們來看一下，絲綢之路已經是世界遺產，鄭和下西洋泉州到南洋的海上絲路也準備申請世界遺產，我不曉得文化部有沒有這種感動，蘭嶼巴丹島海洋古道有沒有計畫要申請世界遺產？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員說明，的確我就是透過文化總會來跟我們提這個案子，文化總會當時希望文化部能夠協助的是，這一條航線我們怎麼給予一些宣傳，讓大家知道有要做這樣一件偉大的事情。那就是不巧的，今年度文化部的所有文化宣傳行銷費用被刪到零，所以在這一塊目前為止，我們沒有辦法協助文化總會去做這件事情。可是剛剛委員給我們的建議跟說明，我發現如果這一條古道，或許我們在文資的身分上，我們來考慮用什麼方法，讓它可以在文資上面獲得所謂的法定身分，然後我們給予協助，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們也有講遺產潛力點的計畫，建置跨國合作的機制是很重要的，所以我特別希望請文資局能夠針對世界遺產潛力點的現況整合盤點，加速我們講的這些很重要的文本撰擬。更重要的是它的保存維護計畫希望可以更簡便、更快速，不要讓大家覺得要等很久、很複雜，也希望對於申請世界遺產國際合作的可能性，能積極地來協助辦理。次長，我提出這樣的訴求，希望我們能用積極的態度協助，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員。報告的部分我們一定會做，只是能不能稍微給多一點時間，給2個月好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，好。謝謝次長。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。次長請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5643ad9e3e4274fd4269f0f8eeb1de8c89c46063d171e8badfa8eb383f3b572de745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:28:45 - 11:39:00","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:28:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:39:00+08:00","duration":615,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.977843750000002,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.984718750000003,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.88034375000001,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.85471875,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.72784375,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.57784375,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.88346875,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.99284375,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.80096875000001,"end":132.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.32221875000002,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.21659375000002,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.02659375000002,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":138.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.14846875,"end":152.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.25596875000002,"end":157.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.68971875,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.76096875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.67096875000001,"end":227.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.02721875,"end":240.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.97159375,"end":260.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.31471875,"end":273.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.59159375,"end":279.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.70034375,"end":287.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.47971875,"end":289.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.70721875000004,"end":316.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.26409375000003,"end":336.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.14721875000004,"end":336.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.73346875000004,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.75034375,"end":338.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.20159375000003,"end":384.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.23659375,"end":391.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.85159375,"end":393.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.28596875000005,"end":405.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.30284375,"end":393.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.18284375,"end":409.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.84034375000005,"end":409.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.70909375,"end":423.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.89721875000004,"end":427.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.25096875,"end":428.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.89221875000004,"end":441.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.56534375,"end":446.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.02909375,"end":444.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.18096875000003,"end":444.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.21846875000006,"end":461.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.67221875,"end":486.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.87471875000006,"end":493.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.37159375000005,"end":497.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.50596875,"end":503.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.74971875000006,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.96409375,"end":524.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.4509687500001,"end":526.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.0247187500001,"end":526.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.95284375,"end":527.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.62346875,"end":565.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.90034375,"end":566.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.3559687500001,"end":611.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.6103437500001,"end":613.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.70284375,"end":615.09096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.021,"end":21.016,"text":"好 等下就拜託我們的就是保訓會的主委"},{"start":26.341,"end":53.555,"text":"職場霸凌案件都是行為不法以上犯罪未滿多數案件很難以刑法規範因此要以行政法來處理那實務上常以不當管理為不法行為開脫可是卻造成被害者的傷害所以想問主委這邊本法草案考試院定義職場霸凌把權勢關係跟冒犯行為 敵意環境等造成被害者身心傷害事實的因素都列入"},{"start":54.495,"end":72.65,"text":"並以持續性為要件在這個定義裡邊那我們的公務機關呢公務機關主管EQ不好不定期或不經意的用笨啊無能啊指特定的公務員是否構成"},{"start":76.755,"end":104.823,"text":"跟委員報告如果按照我們的定義這是構成的只是說目前因為很多的機關的文化或當事人甚至被霸凌者我們假定他是構成的他都不知道說這個其實是職場霸凌所以我們現在從6月中開始就會大量的開始去進行宣導輔導讓所有的公務人員跟各級主管知道其實你這樣子一般常用的就像剛剛委員舉的這個已經是很"},{"start":107.004,"end":132.777,"text":"很斯文很含蓄的了其實他如果說當事人他自己他感覺到他身心受創或是長期導致了我們講到他的一個信心不足了或等等這都構成對那另外一個就是說如果公務機關常發生事實上是公務員申請調職可是原單位卻主管卻押注案子導致公務員調不成這是不是也是屬於職場霸凌"},{"start":135.289,"end":160.959,"text":"有關這一題呢 目前的這個就是在機關就主管的他的這個用人權跟這個當事人他調離的權益之間呢他要怎麼橫評呢 目前是一個大家都在討論中的那這個部分呢 是不是請這個我們人事法規主管機關 懷次長來跟委員說明會比較清楚好 謝謝委員提問喔 那有關於這個部分"},{"start":162.447,"end":180.182,"text":"有關這部分我們目前本部要修改那個公務人員任用法適應細則大概過去機關所長有絕對的否準權那未來我們的修正是這樣大致跟您報告一下第一個就是說你收到商調公文你最遲一個月內就要同意商調"},{"start":181.042,"end":194.773,"text":"那你最長只能給他就是三個月內如果你不同意或怎樣他就自動生效三個月就會離開那麼如果經過三番譬如說當事人跟本機關還有去介紹機關有同意一個協調的實踐的話"},{"start":196.334,"end":224.316,"text":"那就尊重他們三環協調時間但這個也有一個天花板最多也就是只能延長三個月那因為我們也考慮到那個很多譬如在我們中央這種跟地方這種有些偏遠地區譬如說花東啦或者是像台中啊或者是那個像這些偏遠地區他們很多機關也反映說那如果說是屬於在這種地方的機關你頂多就是只能在三個月所以就是都是三加三最多就是"},{"start":224.736,"end":253.932,"text":"所以有其層上的一個配額就是機關已經沒有絕對扶準權那我們也兼顧到說機關能力的因為畢竟不在地方政府或者它是實際在推動業務的那也考慮到我們公務員自己的需求那我們在這兩者之間取得一個橫幅那目前在公告中在遵循各方意見中 跟國務院報告好 那主委一樣問你喔公務員本人或配偶因工作不愉快或在臉書上發牢騷受到長官的當面關切是否構成"},{"start":254.432,"end":279.242,"text":"好那如果受到質問或嚴厲的質問的話這些是不是也構成跟委員報告就是說他如果是就是說如果是當事人的話呢那他受到長官的這個嚴厲的指責如果涉及到這個已經符合我們職場霸凌的這裡面的定義那甚至於影響了他"},{"start":279.895,"end":298.549,"text":"的這個工作譬如說威脅說你繼續再這樣的話那就怎樣怎樣怎樣那這個當然是構成職場霸凌是好謝謝那在下一頁如果主管及霸凌者公務員如何內部申訴那為什麼不去建立外部的機制為什麼有時候職場霸凌有時候是大概是"},{"start":299.99,"end":315.996,"text":"職位高者對下屬做出一些冒犯的那個所謂的權勢霸凌那公務員員以服從為天職的話面對機關的首長或主管那公務員員要考慮到日後日子很難過深情無望官官相互被刺案或是被反"},{"start":317.318,"end":335.94,"text":"反指誣告要不是就是忍耐多半是不敢申訴所以我很擔心是沒有有些空有法律可是實際上還是自愛難行所以想問在機關的立場上會不會因為家走不可外揚而要求公務員對機構內部發生的霸凌事件保密"},{"start":337.779,"end":360.666,"text":"跟委員報告外界的確會有這樣的擔心但是以目前特別是去年的一整波的職場霸凌的這些案件看起來這樣的機率會越來越少因為如果機關裡面有人要求所謂的家醜不可外揚其實它會造成更多的反彈這是第一點"},{"start":361.266,"end":383.466,"text":"第二點就是說其實他現在有非常非常多可以申訴或者是去爆料的管道那反而呢會讓機關陷於更大的困境所以機關只要知悉的話就是不一定要機關首長他可能告訴任何一位他比較信任的長官或者是同事那或者是人事單位或是政風人員"},{"start":385.305,"end":409.712,"text":"只要機關有人窒息那機關就必須這是法定要求他就必須開始去處理這個案件當然話是這麼講可是桃園市政府去年便發生某處長指責下屬把內部醜事告訴配偶的新聞然後涉及到長官首長也面時那申訴人要怎麼去相信申訴過程是安全的調查是客觀的結果是公正的"},{"start":413.228,"end":440.972,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這件案這個case呢基本上他就是他有去申訴了就我所知因為這個他是主管機關這個目前也有代表在這邊那這個他在這個調查過程就是說他不足但是我想其實當事人他也有一些證據顯示他其實是應該構成的所以這地方"},{"start":441.947,"end":469.79,"text":"這個因為他涉及個案所以我們訊會就不清楚那目前這個如果這將來這個因為他是可以再提再申訴的那如果他再提他可以當事人他可以再提再申訴那到時候我們可能就會比較清楚這個過程是怎麼樣子的判斷我覺得主要是申訴人他感受到安全而且這樣的一個機制事實上是客觀他才能夠確保他會去做申訴好下一頁"},{"start":470.65,"end":485.437,"text":"就有時候情節重大案件當然應該進入到司法審判可是情節輕微的案件有時候會沒有辦法成立那個刑事的犯罪則要透過內部的處分來做處理可是如果兩照任一方不服處分的結果都是會"},{"start":486.932,"end":506.869,"text":"去複審再申述的救濟權唯有調解才能夠節省兩方的耗費心力可是台灣的公務體制的科程關係太強了公務員不太容易相信自己內部調查能不能夠公平除非有重大的改革所以想問主委說為了想調解有效而不是應付程序"},{"start":509.085,"end":524.054,"text":"希望就是要設立審議會讓程序公正第二是讓審議會的成員要能夠應對我們的民間團體成員是不是可以納入民間團體跟外部專家 您的看法是什麼"},{"start":525.492,"end":553.958,"text":"跟我們報告這個政府就是以我們目前的保障法加安慰辦法我們那個叫做調查小組那審議會指的是說如果是今天機關首長他是職場霸凌人那保訓會就會組成審議會那目前的在安慰辦法的規定裡面外部的人員就很多那這個外部的專家學者他有很多本身他就是一些公益性或是法律團體或是像"},{"start":554.999,"end":582.457,"text":"這個您目前所舉的這個譬如說法服的裡面重要的的代表人所以目前的機制裡面其實就包含了這個部分是好 因為有時候我覺得法條有時候想講專家學者很常就還是學者而沒有外部的其他的一些比較在執行這些相關處理這些事情的所謂的民間團體最後當然是期待這次的修法裡面"},{"start":583.658,"end":611.109,"text":"能夠納入就是擴大保護對象就是納入不當管理跟我們的職場霸凌跟其他語言的一些不法侵害然後建立內部的一個跟外部的並行機制希望我們還是把民間團體可以納入到我們的審議會的成員還有我們也希望說明確我們的申訴期間要有一個期限在我覺得保障公務人員的心心健康是國家的基本責任以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":614.787,"end":615.043,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":651,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時29分）職場霸凌案件都是「行為不法以上，犯罪未滿」，多數案件很難以刑法規範，因此要以行政法來處理。實務上常以不當管理為不法行為開脫，可是卻造成被害者的傷害，請問主委，本法草案考試院定義職場霸凌，把權勢關係、冒犯行為、敵意環境等造成被害者身心傷害事實的因素都列入，並以持續性為要件。在這個定義裡，公務機關主管EQ不好，不定期或不經意地用「笨啊！」、「無能啊！」指特定的公務員，這樣是否構成？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，如果按照我們的定義，這是構成的。假定這是構成的，目前很多機關的機關文化，當事人甚至被霸凌者，都不知道這個其實是職場霸凌。所以我們從6月中開始，就會大量地開始進行宣導和輔導，讓所有的公務人員跟各級主管知道，其實這樣一般常用的，就像剛剛委員所舉的已經算是很斯文、很含蓄的用語，但如果當事人自己感覺到身心受創，或是長期導致了信心不足等等，這都是構成的。"],["林委員月琴：另外一個在公務機關常發生的是公務人員申請調職，可是原單位主管卻壓住案子，導致公務員調職不成，這是不是也是屬於職場霸凌？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有關這一題，在機關主管的用人權跟當事人調離權益之間要怎麼衡平？是目前大家都在討論的，這個部分是不是請人事法規主管機關懷次長來跟委員說明會比較清楚？"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員提問。有關這一部分，目前本部要修改公務人員任用法施行細則，過去機關首長有絕對的否准權，未來的修正我大致跟您報告：第一個就是收到商調公文，最遲1個月內就要同意商調，最長3個月內，如果不同意就自動生效，3個月就能離開。如果是經過三方，譬如當事人、本機關還有借調機關，有同意一個協調時間的話，就尊重三方協調的時間，但這個也有一個天花板，最多只能延長3個月。因為我們也考慮到中央政府跟地方政府有些偏遠地區的單位，譬如說花東、臺中等等，像這些偏遠地區的很多機關也有反映，如果是屬於這種地方的機關，頂多就是只能再延長3個月，所以最多就是3加3……"],["林委員月琴：所以有期程上的配合。"],["懷次長敍：對，我們已經把天花板設好，機關已經沒有絕對否准權，我們也兼顧到機關人力，畢竟地方政府是實際在推動業務的，並且也考慮到公務員自身的需求，在這兩者之間取得一個衡平，目前公告徵詢各方意見中，以上跟委員報告。"],["林委員月琴：請問主委，如果公務員本人或配偶因工作不愉快，在臉書上發牢騷而受到長官的當面關切，是否構成？如果受到質問或嚴厲質問的話，是不是也構成？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，當事人受到長官的嚴厲指責，如果涉及已經符合職場霸凌的定義，甚至於影響了他的工作，比如威脅說再繼續這樣的話就怎樣，這個當然是構成職場霸凌。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。關於主管及霸凌者，公務員如何內部申訴？為什麼不建立外部的機制？職場霸凌大概是職位高者對下屬做出一些所謂權勢霸凌的冒犯。公務人員以服從為天職，面對機關首長或主管，公務人員要考慮到日後日子很難過、升遷無望、官官相護、被吃案或是被反指誣告，要不就是忍耐且多半是不敢申訴，所以我很擔心是空有法律實際上還是喪失相關申訴權利，造成窒礙難行。請問站在機關的立場上，會不會因為家醜不可外揚，而要求公務員對機構內部發生的霸凌事件保密？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，外界的確會有這樣的擔心，但是特別以去年一整波的職場霸凌案件看起來，這樣的機率會越來越少，因為如果機關裡面有人要求所謂的家醜不可外揚，其實會造成更多的反彈，這是第一點；第二點，現在有非常多可以申訴或者是爆料的管道，反而會讓機關陷於更大的困境，所以機關只要知悉的話，也就是不一定要告訴機關首長，可能告訴任何一位比較信任的長官、同事、人事單位，或者政風人員，只要機關有人知悉，這是法定要求，機關就必須開始去處理這個案件。"],["林委員月琴：對啦！當然話是這麼講。可是桃園市政府去年便發生某處長指責下屬把內部醜事告訴配偶的新聞，關於涉及到長官、首長顏面時，申訴人要怎麼去相信申訴的過程是安全的？調查是客觀的？結果是公正的？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，就我所知，這個case基本上有去申訴了，主管機關目前也有代表在這邊。在這個調查過程就是說他證據不足，但是我想當事人也有一些證據，顯示他其實是應該構成的，因為涉及個案，所以我們保訓會就不清楚。因為將來他是可以提再申訴的，如果當事人提出，到時候我們可能就會比較清楚這個過程是怎樣判斷。"],["林委員月琴：我會這樣講主要是因為申訴人要感受到安全，而且這樣的機制事實上是要客觀的，才能確保他會去申訴。有時候情節重大案件當然應該進入司法審判，可是情節輕微的案件，有時候沒有辦法成立刑事犯罪，而要透過內部的處分來處理。可是如果兩造任一方不服處分的結果，都是會行使復審、再申訴的救濟權，唯有調解才能夠節省兩方耗費的心力。可是臺灣公務體制的科層關係太強，公務員不太容易相信內部調查能夠公平，除非有重大的改革。所以想問主委，為了調解有效而不是應付程序，我希望要設立審議會讓程序公正；第二，事實上審議會的成員要能夠應對民間團體，就是成員是不是可以納入民間團體跟外部專家，你的看法是什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，依目前的保障法和安衛辦法所成立的叫做調查小組，審議會指的是如果機關首長是職場霸凌人，保訓會就會組成審議會。目前在安衛辦法的規定裡面，這些外部的專家學者，有很多本身就是一些公益性或法律團體，或是像您目前所舉的比如法扶裡面重要的代表人，所以目前的機制其實就包含了這個部分。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得法條有時候講專家學者在實務上常常就還是僅有學者，而沒有外部其他一些比較在執行、處理這些相關事情的民間團體。","最後，當然是期待這次的修法能夠擴大保護對象，就是納入不當管理、職場霸凌及其他語言的不法侵害，在內部建立一個跟外部並行的機制，希望還是可以把民間團體納入審議會的成員；我們也希望明確申訴期間，要有個期限在，我覺得保障公務人員身心健康是國家的基本責任，以上，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162291","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162291","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56458abc7da9d7664e533769fbc08eef2e946063d171e8badfa5cf1e4e0c14f3c535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:23:28 - 11:30:54","影片長度":"00:07:26","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:23:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:30:54+08:00","duration":446,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.185343750000001,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.56784375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.98971875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.28909375,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.64409375000001,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.59721875000001,"end":117.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.08159375000001,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.25409375000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.14346875000001,"end":118.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.86471875000001,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.34596875,"end":165.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.39721875,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.41346875000002,"end":195.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.10909375,"end":175.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.14409375000002,"end":199.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.35846875000001,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.99284375000002,"end":218.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.73096875000002,"end":220.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.31721875000002,"end":221.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.27471875,"end":244.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.41471875000002,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.84909375,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.86971875,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.87971875,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.33534375,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.41346875,"end":309.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.97409375,"end":311.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.92721875,"end":325.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.50909375000003,"end":315.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.27159375,"end":324.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.97596875,"end":396.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.34034375000005,"end":430.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.79971875,"end":400.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.51221875000005,"end":432.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.46534375000005,"end":439.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.21971875,"end":439.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.35471875,"end":440.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.65846875000005,"end":443.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.82659375000003,"end":445.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.63221875000005,"end":446.50971875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.496,"end":14.347,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們次長好 有請理事長"},{"start":20.578,"end":43.395,"text":"委員長市長好市長首先要感謝文化部那過去對於這個我們屏東的文化資產的一個保存給予我們屏東縣很大的一個支持所以包含我們的勝利仙村也好現在平野1936現在變成全國知名的一個觀光的一個點也是一個文化保存的一個典範但是今天還是有幾個問題還是要繼續請文化部來支持"},{"start":46.798,"end":73.397,"text":"那我想今年我們恆春建成150週年那誠如這個次長從這個照片上看到的我們這個南門我們今年也得到文化部的支持我們今年會有增加一個光雕秀的一個演出那這個光雕秀的演出也帶動了一個整個恆春的觀光的一個發展跟一個人潮但是現在我知道我們文化部現在也有在進行我們一個"},{"start":74.137,"end":101.096,"text":"恆春古城的一個修復計畫那恆春古城是我們目前全台唯一有四個城門完整保存的一個國定古蹟那我們文化部啟動了這個恆春古城保存活化的一個專案計畫那地方對於這個整體的進度也好預算的執行也好還有我們中央跟地方一個協力的模式還是有一些的期待那我想這部分次長知道這個案子的進度嗎"},{"start":103.502,"end":118.309,"text":"我了解這個案子那我想因為這也由文資局代主政直接來執行這個修復保存計畫目前進度上應該是還在進化中進度中在執行中並沒有沒有嚴重的延遲"},{"start":119.369,"end":143.34,"text":"因為剛剛我知道這個案子我們也送到工程會在審查當中我剛剛也有特別拜託我們的主委我們一起共同來努力因為這個我知道我們目前我們大概規劃上面因為有考慮到一些私有土地還有一個施工的問題我們要規劃一個分段分期進行的一個模式但是次長我比較擔心這個恆春古城如果這樣分段進行"},{"start":144.68,"end":165.223,"text":"會把這個工企拉得很長而且整個這個尤其它又靠近我們整個橫村比較市中心的一個聚落我擔心會變成一個工地化的一個現象那長期的這個圍裏圍起來之後也不利於一個觀光發展跟交通的一個動線那這部分有沒有辦法做一個比較有效的一個整合能夠一次到位一次施工"},{"start":169.262,"end":193.732,"text":"當然謝謝委員的提醒對於做工程的來講我們都希望最好是一次到位整個封起來一次施工會比較單純可是這個地方上有地方的考量他們因為原本像它西門都還是維持這個交通動線所以我們現在會盡量去做到分區那雖然是用分區分段來執行可是對於交通的影響或者是對周遭生活的影響我們會努力的降到最低"},{"start":194.712,"end":215.777,"text":"這個一定要列入評估不能造成這樣一個交通的黑暗期尤其我覺得有一些地段的部分有些公法的試作上面也必須考慮到這個整體的一個我們要保存的一個美意不要太多的人為化的一個過程裡面把那個古城的味道不見了也不好"},{"start":217.222,"end":243.728,"text":"這個我們會小心不會造成這樣的現象是那尤其我想過去我們期待的這個一個整個景觀的一個優化跟人情的動線我想我們應該要求要同步來進行那尤其是我們景林的這個一個觀光的一個熱帶包含我們北門廣場還有西門周邊的一個步道東門的入口一向我想這部分應該是優先來做處理把那個工序稍微調整一下"},{"start":244.668,"end":263.153,"text":"這部分應該是來做 趕快做一個規劃進行這部分我們會依照委員的建議來做一個調整這樣 我最近我也會找時間約你們跟約工程會因為我知道你們七月份就要開始去做一些的進度 一個採購的案子我想在採購之前 我們還是要把整體的狀況趕快做一個討論"},{"start":266.174,"end":289.654,"text":"那我想因為我前陣子我們的教育委員會我們有到屏東來考察那也特別感謝我們林怡景召委還有吳立華委員我想我們屏東橫村有發現了這個第一具全長超過15公尺的鯨魚化石那目前放在我們的科博館裡面那我們在上次考察我們有特別期待未來"},{"start":290.495,"end":310.876,"text":"在恆春能夠建立一個地質資源館或是透過文化部我們把國立史前文化博物館能夠來增設一個鵝卵筆的分館我們整合科博館跟海神館的資源打造一個具有展示研究教育跟觀光功能的一個基地我想這個部分次長能夠支持這個案子嗎"},{"start":312.964,"end":337.688,"text":"不好意思因為我今天第一次知道這個案子這個提議我想我們會去部裡面會跟我們的文資司博物館的管理單位來做演繹我想這個要加快進行尤其這幾年這個整個恆春半島的觀光這個直線下滑我們也期待能夠有新的一個教育文化跟一個觀光景點的一個設施能夠帶動我們地方的觀光發展那最後我想"},{"start":338.388,"end":360.415,"text":"我們除了這個要做一個硬體的建設那最重要的是我們也發現了目前這個化石的部分也暴露了我們台灣在化石保護上面的一個法制的一個空白化的一個狀況我們目前沒有一個化石的一個專法所以造成這個不管是文資保存法自然資源法還有國有財產法都沒辦法保護這些化石的資產"},{"start":361.255,"end":370.406,"text":"造成挖到的化石沒有人管或是被蓄意迫害沒有法則甚至我們政府對這樣的一個保存有出現一個管理上的一些狀況那我想我們也會趕快著手來進行這個專法的一個討論跟規劃那在這邊我想"},{"start":376.152,"end":396.097,"text":"也再特別感謝我們這個林井召委還有我們吳立委員希望未來我們趕快把這個專法訂定完之後然後趕快也把我們的這個展示館能夠開起來我想這就是對我們這個屏東縣是一個大事情我們都期待這個往這個正向的方向來努力也請文化部給我們大力的支持"},{"start":397.218,"end":412.808,"text":"我想這一定要跨部會的一個協調跟努力因為如果挖出來的化石是屬於人類生活遺跡的話這個會是在我們文資法文化警官保護的裡面的範疇我們的史前博物館也可以介入那如果是純粹是生物的"},{"start":413.268,"end":432.596,"text":"就像鯨魚這樣子它其實比較可能是就是剛剛講科博館或是海生館他們這個那這是教育部的業館範圍那我想兩個部會怎麼樣努力來合作對於這樣子的一個挖出來的化石能夠給予保存然後甚至後面的展示計畫這個我們一起來努力好嗎就我們私下了解那個地理下"},{"start":433.596,"end":446.078,"text":"至少還有好幾隻金魚的化石在裡面所以這個是很重要的一個資產我們大家一起來努力好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝徐副葵委員好 次長請回我們接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時23分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：次長好。次長，首先要感謝文化部過去對屏東文化資產的保存，給予屏東縣很大的支持，包含勝利星村、屏菸1936，現在變成全國知名的觀光點，也是一個文化保存典範，但是今天還是有幾個問題要繼續請文化部支持。","今年恆春建城150週年，誠如次長從照片上看到的，南門今年也得到文化部的支持，會增加一個光雕秀演出，這個光雕秀的演出也帶動整個恆春的觀光發展和人潮。我知道文化部現在也有在進行一個恆春古城的修復計畫，恆春古城是目前全臺唯一有4個城門完整保存的國定古蹟，文化部啟動了恆春古城保存活化的專案計畫，地方對於整體的進度也好、預算的執行也好，還有中央跟地方的協力模式，還是有一些期待。請問次長知道這個案子的進度嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我了解這個案子，因為這由文資局主政，直接執行這個修復保存計畫，目前進度上應該是還在執行中，並沒有嚴重延遲。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我知道這個案子也送到工程會在審查當中，我剛剛也有特別拜託主委一起共同努力。我知道目前規劃上因為有考慮到一些私有土地，還有施工的問題，我們要規劃一個分段、分期進行的模式。但是，次長，我比較擔心恆春古城如果分段進行會把工期拉得很長，尤其它又靠近整個恆春比較市中心的聚落，我擔心會變成一個工地化的現象，長期用圍籬圍起來之後，會不利於觀光發展跟交通動線。這部分有沒有辦法做比較有效的整合，能夠一次到位、一次施工？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提醒，對於做工程的來講，我們都希望最好是一次到位，整個封起來一次施工會比較單純，可是這個地方有地方上的考量，像西門都還是維持交通動線。我們現在會儘量做到分區，雖然是分區、分段執行，可是對於交通的影響或者是對周遭生活的影響，我們會努力降到最低，也會跟地方保持溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：這個一定要列入評估，不能造成交通的黑暗期。尤其我覺得有一些地段的部分、有一些工法的施作上，也必須考量到整體我們要保存的美意，不要有太多人為化的過程，卻讓古城的味道不見了，也不好啦！"],["李次長靜慧：這個我們會小心，不會造成這樣的現象。"],["徐委員富癸：是。尤其過去我們期待的整個景觀優化跟人行動線，我想我們應該要求要同步進行，尤其是我們緊鄰了觀光的熱帶，包含北門廣場，還有西門周邊的步道、東門的入口意象，這部分應該優先處理，把工序稍微調整一下，這部分應該要趕快規劃進行。"],["李次長靜慧：好，這部分我們會依照委員的建議調整。"],["徐委員富癸：最近我也會找時間約你們跟工程會，因為我知道你們7月份就要開始一些進度，有一個採購的案子，我想在採購之前，還是要把整體狀況趕快做一個討論。"],["李次長靜慧：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員富癸：前陣子教文委員會有到屏東考察，特別感謝林宜瑾召委，還有伍麗華委員。我們屏東恆春發現了第一具全長超過15公尺的鯨魚化石，目前放在我們的科博館裡面。在上一次考察，我們特別期待未來在恆春能夠建立一個地質資源館，或是透過文化部，鼓勵史前文化博物館能夠增設一個鵝鑾鼻分館。我們整合科博館跟海生館的資源，打造一個具有展示、研究、教育跟觀光功能的基地。這個部分次長能夠支持這個案子嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：不好意思，我今天第一次知道這個提議，我想我們回去部裡面，會跟我們的文資司，就是博物館的管理單位研議，看怎麼樣協助這個進行。"],["徐委員富癸：對，尤其這幾年整個恆春半島的觀光直線下滑，我們也期待能夠有一個新的教育文化跟觀光景點的設施，帶動我們地方的觀光發展。","最後我們除了要做一個硬體的建設，最重要的是我們也發現，目前化石的部分也暴露了臺灣在化石保護上面法制空白化的狀況。我們沒有一個化石的專法，所以造成不管是文資保存法、自然資源法，還有國有財產法都沒辦法保護這些化石的資產，造成挖到的化石沒有人管，或是被蓄意破壞沒有罰則，甚至我們政府對這樣的保存出現管理上的一些狀況。我想我們也會趕快著手進行專法的討論跟規劃，在這邊再特別感謝林宜瑾召委，還有伍麗華委員，希望未來我們趕快把這個專法訂定完之後，趕快幫我們的展示館能夠蓋起來，我想這對我們屏東縣是一件大事情。我們都期待往正向的方向努力，也請文化部給我們大力的支持。"],["李次長靜慧：我想這一定要跨部會的協調跟努力，因為如果挖出來的化石是屬於人類生活遺跡的話，這個會是在我們文資法、文化景觀保護裡面的範疇，我們的史前博物館也可以介入；如果純粹是生物的，就像鯨魚這樣的，它其實就比較是剛剛講的科博館或是海生館的範疇，這是教育部的業館範圍；我想兩個部會怎麼樣努力合作，對於這樣一個挖出來的化石能夠給予保存，甚至後面的展示計畫，這個我們一起努力，好嗎？"],["徐委員富癸：就我們私下了解，地底下至少還有好幾隻鯨魚化石在裡面，所以這是很重要的一個資產，我們大家一起來努力。謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。次長請回。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162289","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56415fd7b953e4986749f0f8eeb1de8c89c46063d171e8badfa8225e6885a7027b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:20:48 - 11:28:29","影片長度":"00:07:41","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:20:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:28:29+08:00","duration":461,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.177843750000001,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.699718750000002,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.88909375,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.01909375,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.53721875,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.97534375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.62034375,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.172843750000006,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.13784375,"end":46.572218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.26409375,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.515968750000006,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.945968750000006,"end":64.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.38784375,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.98221875,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.88034375000001,"end":75.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.51284375,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.93034375,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.96409375,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.63034375000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.26159375,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.45096875,"end":131.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.14534375,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.87096875,"end":149.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.38346875000002,"end":148.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.34096875,"end":151.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.33221875,"end":170.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.28284375,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.40846875,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.94409375,"end":182.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.27659375000002,"end":184.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.57596875000002,"end":186.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.63471875000002,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.87846875000002,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.20284375,"end":196.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.78909375,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.45534375000003,"end":200.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.90659375,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.54784375000003,"end":207.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.91409375,"end":210.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.73221875000002,"end":230.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.04971875,"end":242.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.92971875,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.33471875,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.43159375000002,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.13596875000002,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.14409375000002,"end":249.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.79784375000003,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.05471875,"end":260.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.83409375,"end":273.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.41846875000005,"end":278.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.02534375,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.79284375000003,"end":283.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.08784375,"end":284.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.38721875000005,"end":290.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.25971875,"end":303.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.56221875,"end":303.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.46034375,"end":303.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.51096875,"end":303.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.52784375000005,"end":303.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.74721875,"end":313.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.34909375,"end":314.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.41659375,"end":317.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.35659375,"end":319.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.12409375000004,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.40659375,"end":324.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.42346875000004,"end":337.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.15971875,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.20596875,"end":351.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.95909375,"end":355.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.95409375,"end":358.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.24909375000004,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.79721875,"end":364.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.08784375000005,"end":368.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.23909375000005,"end":370.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.72409375,"end":372.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.39034375,"end":391.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.63221875000005,"end":405.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.50346875,"end":423.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.48409375,"end":430.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.73159375,"end":433.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.66346875000005,"end":435.40596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.14846875,"end":445.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.54784375,"end":452.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.05721875,"end":457.47846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.402,"end":25.561,"text":"主席 各位委員首先針對今天所要討論的郭汶蓮保障法要請教我們保訓會的主任委員這次的一個修正特別重要"},{"start":27.685,"end":45.672,"text":"因為前一陣子真的是這種職場的霸凌真的是非常的嚴重所以裡面現在特別增加在第19條病死公務員免於遭受職場霸凌等行為在第二項裡面"},{"start":47.678,"end":67.956,"text":"特別寫持續,這個持續這兩個定義未來怎麼樣去怎麼樣才算持續,這個時間到底是多久還是怎麼樣然後要造成這個敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性"},{"start":69.305,"end":88.499,"text":"之不友善工作環境這個都是需要釐清的部分所以這個部分這個要不要請主委說明一下跟委員報告就是有關於這個定義持續 脅迫或是敵意等等那這個是這整個的定義是我們"},{"start":89.618,"end":107.688,"text":"這個透過多場的這個法治徵詢然後呢也參考了整個職安法草案那所共同訂定下來一致性的這樣子的一個處理方式那所謂的持續呢基本上呢就是陳如委員講的那對於持續這個概念呢就是指說它可能"},{"start":108.288,"end":130.36,"text":"如果是這個整個要一起看因為後面有一個就是如果是情節重大但是如果今天舉例來講他是每天都比如說有一個主管他每天都就是習慣性的罵他的同仁說你豬頭我沒有要口出諱言我是舉例來講然後呢這個每天大概就這樣子就一段時間那這個"},{"start":133.72,"end":150.13,"text":"久了當然就會造成這個當事人他會自己開始去懷疑起自己那這個就是有持續性那敵意的話呢 基本上當然我們知道說這種話是不應該說的嘛雖然可能他口頭禪 可是這都不應該是這個就是要讓"},{"start":151.531,"end":168.957,"text":"怎麼樣讓公務人員了解所以你們除了條文是這樣規定之外相關未來通過之後相關的這些說明對相關的公務人員了解的部分是怎麼樣能夠把它做比較詳細的說明"},{"start":170.619,"end":195.167,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們已經開始著手這些相關的指引跟案例還有判準謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那現在就是這個第19條之一這條條文裡面這個因案情節輕重依公務員懲戒法公務人員考機法或其他相關法規這個如果是政務官"},{"start":198.117,"end":208.957,"text":"有適用到這幾個法會就是在我們目前的安慰辦法裡面好那這個只要是這一個"},{"start":212.298,"end":230.116,"text":"我們處理霸凌者他現在是明定有很多的機制可以用一個部分就是這邊我們所列舉的包含公務人員服務法、考機法、任用法這些都一定所有人事法制都可以用此外本來公務人員就有懲戒然後行政懲處這是考機法"},{"start":231.107,"end":244.971,"text":"那以我們現在的版本如果它還有涉及到行政法環的部分或是刑事通通都是總共至少有五個機制可以同時並用而且它沒有互相排斥的現象好 謝謝接下來這個第21條"},{"start":253.103,"end":275.196,"text":"特別增加公務員因機關未提供安全及衛生防護措施增加這個然後還有修正治其生命身心健康受損失得以國家賠償法請求賠償那因為今天這個負責國家賠償法的"},{"start":279.307,"end":289.868,"text":"我不知道他有沒有了解請問一下當初有沒有去跟保護部負責國家賠償的主管的部門有去他們有參與嗎"},{"start":291.297,"end":317.763,"text":"跟我們報告這一條是現行條文就是這樣所以在過去的這個立法過程裡面已經有跟他們有討論過那這一次這次只有增加新啦國賠法本來就是在的這一條本來就是現行條文只是我們增加一個新這件事而已就是讓執法的部分可以你們還增加這個未提供安全及衛生防護措施這個部分"},{"start":325.653,"end":336.548,"text":"這個部分他本來就是有但是我們這次寫得更清楚因為整個安慰辦法本來就是包含了安全及衛生的防護"},{"start":338.565,"end":355.334,"text":"這個因為國家培養法第三條本來就有規定了本來就有規定那現在這個做修正怎麼樣去做能夠能夠相互搭配合是一個很重要的好最後這個要請教那個前序部前序部這個針對"},{"start":359.301,"end":371.856,"text":"警察人員人事條例在114年4月25號已經公布施行這個修正的條文那現在這個開始適用了嗎"},{"start":373.447,"end":402.78,"text":"是跟那個委員報告那個因為法律已經生效了所以後續那個怎麼處理我們已經有跟內政部大概在4月29號5月16號跟5月28號那個由本部的政府次長跟內政部的次長有召開過後因為這個法律條文通過我想您我們大家也說公務員出身嘛那不是法律條文通過就可以馬上可以做出很多事出來那有一些程序性的積極性的技術性的問題都需要處理那這三次會議大概都有擬清清楚"},{"start":403.3,"end":426.333,"text":"那未來那個警政署這邊會再修正那個施行細則那因為他目前的這個退伏的作業程序是跟現行法律是不一樣的現行的退伏法不一樣那我們的資訊系統也是不一樣的所以這部分都需要再重新再做一些處理第一個您把後續需要做的事情"},{"start":427.233,"end":433.499,"text":"提個素面資料給我這第一個第二個要請前序部協助"},{"start":436.565,"end":455.157,"text":"請證書因為這個畢竟他們過去沒有自己負責過這樣的一個規定那施行細則的部分請行政部能夠來協助他們來把這個施行細則能夠趕快的發布可以嗎這個我們都一直有保持密切聯繫謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時20分）主席、各位委員。首先，針對今天討論的公務員保障法，請教保訓會主任委員。這次的修正特別重要，因為前一陣子職場霸凌情況真的非常嚴重，所以特別在第十九條增列「並使公務員免於遭受職場霸凌等行為」。第二項特別寫到「持續」，但「持續」這兩個字未來到底該怎麼定義？怎麼樣才算持續？時間到底多久？還是怎麼樣？還有要「造成敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性之不友善工作環境」，這些都是需要釐清的部分。就此，主委要不要說明一下？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，有關持續、脅迫或敵意等等之定義，其實是我們透過多場的法制徵詢，也參考職安法草案，所共同訂定下來的一致性處理方式。","所謂的「持續」，基本上誠如委員所說，持續的概念可能指……其實這要整個一起看，因為後面還涉及「情節重大」。舉例來講，有一個主管每天都習慣性地罵同仁說「你豬頭啊！」……我沒有口出穢言的意思，只是舉例說明。然後每天都這樣子一段時間，久了之後會造成當事人開始懷疑起自己，這就是有持續性。至於「敵意」，基本上我們知道這種話是不應該說的，雖然可能是口頭禪，但都是不應該的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，所以怎麼讓公務人員了解？除了條文是這樣規定外，未來通過後，相關說明要讓公務人員了解的話，我想要做比較詳細的說明。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員提醒！我們已經開始著手蒐集相關的指引、案例及判準，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：第十九條之一條文提到，「應按情節輕重，依公務員懲戒法、公務人員考績法或其他相關法規」，政務官也適用這幾個法嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：會，目前在安衛辦法裡，只要是霸凌者，我們在處理霸凌者時，明定了很多機制可以用。一個是這邊所列舉的，包含公務人員服務法、考績法、任用法，這些所有人事法制都可以用。此外，本來公務人員就有懲戒，至於行政懲處則屬於考績法。以我們現在的版本來說，如果還涉及行政罰鍰或刑事，總共至少有五個機制可同時並用，且沒有互相排斥。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來，第二十一條特別增加「公務人員因機關未提供安全及衛生防護措施……致其生命、身心健康受損失時，得依國家賠償法請求賠償。」但我不知道負責國家賠償法的主管機關有沒有了解這項規定，請問當初有沒有跟法務部或負責國家賠償的主管部門……他們有參與嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這條是現行條文，就是這樣！過去在立法過程中已經跟他們有討論過……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我是說增加的條文……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這次只增加「心」，國賠法本來就是在的，這一條本來就是現行條文，我們只是增加「心」這件事而已。也就是讓職霸的部分可以納入……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你們還增加「未提供安全及衛生防護措施」！沒關係，這個我要……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這部分本來就有，只是這次寫得更清楚，因為整部安衛辦法本來就包含安全及衛生防護。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：國家賠償法第三條本來就有規定。現在這邊做了修正，所以怎麼樣來相互配合是很重要的。","最後，請教銓敘部，警察人員人事條例修正條文已經在114年4月25號公布施行，現在開始適用了嗎？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，法律已經生效了，所以後續該怎麼處理，我們已經跟內政部大概在4月29號、5月16號及5月28號，由本部政務次長跟內政部次長召開過會議，因為法律條文通過後……大家都是公務員出身，都知道並非法律條文通過就可以馬上做很多事，有一些程序性的、枝節性的、技術性的問題都需要處理。這三次會議大概都有釐清清楚，未來警政署會再修正施行細則。由於目前退撫的作業程序跟現行法律並不一樣，和現行的退撫法不一樣，資訊系統也不一樣，所以這些都需要再重新作業，我們都會處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：第一個，您把後續需要做的事情，提個書面資料給我，這是第一個；第二個，請銓敘部協助警政署，畢竟他們過去沒有自己負責過這樣的規定，施行細則的部分，請銓敘部能夠來協助他們把施行細則趕快發布，可以嗎？"],["懷次長敍：這個部分我們一直都有保持很密切的聯繫，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來有請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564f31fd773731c4a949f0f8eeb1de8c89c46063d171e8badfa101d8e2190a533195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:09:55 - 11:20:37","影片長度":"00:10:42","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:09:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:20:37+08:00","duration":642,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.489093750000002,"end":14.172218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.442218750000002,"end":16.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.88909375,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.79159375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.41971875,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.516593750000002,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.367843750000002,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.32534375,"end":34.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.42221875,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.274718750000005,"end":80.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.60909375,"end":116.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.14346875000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.54284375,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.65221875,"end":130.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.60971875,"end":180.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.04471875000002,"end":226.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.65784375,"end":245.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.08534375000002,"end":262.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.53846875,"end":269.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.14909375,"end":320.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.43659375000004,"end":322.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.81159375000004,"end":334.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.21909375,"end":349.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.49534375,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.43159375000005,"end":354.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.10659375,"end":357.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.69284375,"end":354.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.28721875,"end":359.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.43034375,"end":361.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.79721875,"end":364.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.22721875,"end":364.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.83471875000004,"end":366.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.92721875,"end":367.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.97346875000005,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.98596875000004,"end":370.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.14596875,"end":372.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.17096875000004,"end":374.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.82471875000005,"end":383.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.93721875,"end":394.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.17596875000004,"end":432.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.80721875,"end":436.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.24534375,"end":439.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.13096875,"end":474.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.87659375000004,"end":485.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.72284375000004,"end":510.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.25909375000003,"end":517.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5322187500001,"end":527.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.1340937500001,"end":529.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.27721875,"end":540.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.24596875,"end":547.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.7722187500001,"end":556.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.00721875,"end":562.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.0990937500001,"end":598.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.9753437500001,"end":627.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.4097187500001,"end":639.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.3234687500001,"end":639.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.3403437500001,"end":640.43721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.649,"end":13.554,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天審這個新增的草案裡面整個職場霸凌不好意思秘書長有休息嗎秘書長不讓他離開的話審這個霸凌有點怪怪好像委員會在霸凌他一樣"},{"start":34.913,"end":58.944,"text":"這個雖然在司法法律委員會裡面這樣一提這個劍拔弩張但是涉及到這個基本的健康人權的官員這也來是要監督但是也都是公務人員尤其是高級文官這些都是國家好不容易栽培出來的那我想今天這個針對公務人員保障法跟公務人員安全衛生防護辦法新增的這個職權霸凌的專章"},{"start":60.365,"end":79.282,"text":"我們來看看這個制度到底有沒有缺口那針對公務人員保障法草案授權安慰辦法裡面新增的這個職場的一個霸凌這個專節裡面來幾個問題來救教我相信今天早上聽了以後大家針對這些修法的一個方向"},{"start":80.763,"end":86.326,"text":"朝野其實都表達正面的一個態度畢竟在公務體系裡面不乏層級明確然後權責非常集中你這個升遷仰賴評比制度的一個設計所以這個權勢的霸凌它不但是真實的存在而且你很難去揭露"},{"start":103.853,"end":124.511,"text":"這過去在公務機關尤其公務人員身份是在法制還沒有那麼健全的時候還在一個特別權利關係底下那很多很多的存在的這些不為外界所知道的這些職權的一個霸凌那我看在現在社會也高度的去做一個重視那在"},{"start":128.82,"end":155.158,"text":"這一次的一個草案裡面我也發現了幾個問題就是說你如果說霸凌者是權責的上級是一個上級的話那你申訴的一個程序如何真正的一個保障這個申訴人也就是說客觀性 那個客觀性那以現在你草案的一個設計你遭遇職場霸凌的攻略你可以向所屬的機關的防務委員會做申訴由委員會來決定是否來受理"},{"start":155.939,"end":180.52,"text":"但我要請教一個簡單的保証一個簡單的問題就是說如果說疑似霸凌者跟委員會成員之間大家都家食塞都家食塞 熟視同單位甚至於平常就存在上下階層這個就是公務機關的一個常態那請問這樣的制度設計怎樣去保障這個申訴的人能夠很安心的去做申訴這個是不是可以先做一個回答"},{"start":182.834,"end":204.194,"text":"謝謝委員的指教跟委員報告就是說這個就是這一次我們會希望能夠擴大外部成員的專家學者外部人員進來的主要原因我們希望透過外部然後還有就是機關它如果有成立工人員協會至少要有一名工人員協會的代表"},{"start":204.975,"end":224.888,"text":"那這個希望就是能夠透過這樣的機制確保這個案子簡單講不會被吃掉不會被戳掉這是第一點第二點就是說除了這個安全衛生防護委員會以外目前各機關都有很多就是他就有首長信箱然後他也可以向上級機關去"},{"start":228.091,"end":253,"text":"向上級機關去申訴就是說他去投書等等那這些呢目前的機制呢各院跟各機關也都有在運作那當然第三點就是說因為整個政府組織他的層級節制的特性他是雙面任他可以是去為了讓這些機關首長還有各級主管負起責任還有就是他如果"},{"start":254.2,"end":271.104,"text":"這個知悉有霸凌他卻沒有處理他是要受到很多的處罰的那這個是他的一個好處那這是我們新加入的但是當然也沒有錯像委員講的那個就是我跟你認識嘛我一輩子都跟你同一個機關那萬一剛好霸凌的那個人呢"},{"start":274.625,"end":296.025,"text":"是機關的副首長因為我們現在是明定副首長或者是幕僚長那這個可能案情會不會真的吃掉所以我們目前當然我們現在想的就是說透過更多元他一個人要吃案子其實他要經過很多的部分第一個人事單位因為組成裡面一定有人事人員第二個外部學者第三個"},{"start":296.96,"end":325.081,"text":"裡面會有陣風所以呢如果這樣他還能夠把那個案子吃掉實在應該我們判斷在實務上現在應該是不太可能另外一個就是有個數字就是說現在這個大家其實越年輕的世代他越勇於敢來揭發機關裡面他受到的不合理的對待而過去的幾年裡面我們接到的霸凌案件"},{"start":326.042,"end":334.124,"text":"還有就是做成的案件以去年來講是36件但是從就是從去年底到現在我們接到的再申訴"},{"start":335.547,"end":363.729,"text":"霸凌就光霸凌已經有超過90件表示說這個文化大家逐漸敢來再申訴所以委員擔心的問題我想我們目前在他通過以後我們會持續觀察是透過比較多的機制這個我在想寶俊榮這大家不用受騙機關裡面第一個上下第二個跟我們講的熟悉"},{"start":364.91,"end":382.707,"text":"最怕的工人最怕的是什麼事後在那個職場裡面那種後面那種報復提出申訴以後常常伴隨著以後對整個他以後的一個升遷當事人會感到壓力我們其實不能去忽視的狀況"},{"start":384.068,"end":406.702,"text":"就是說你現在在防務委員會裡面 你由副首長跟幕僚擔任召集人成員力工5到23 外部人員不得少於三分之一那其實你申訴對象如果是機關首長 雖然規定說要迴避啊但你整個機關的文化裡面 那種層級的壓力其實還是存在啦那如果這加害只是副首長或者處長 科室主管 委員會成員關係 大家可能性喔"},{"start":407.763,"end":419.352,"text":"這個關係密切的可能性那個更高啦所以導致委員是不是會受理或者說可能被牽制在關係的一個網路當中這個都必須要再去慎重那你在整個保訓會其實如果去確保如何去確保當霸凌者本身是機關權力核心的時候這個委員會裡面的客觀獨立的一個程序的一個啟動"},{"start":433.062,"end":454.748,"text":"這個都要特別特別的去關注,尤其這個常常到最後,有時候被標籤化的差不多大家機關內部會形成一種同仇敵愾,這個都不是沒有發生過那整個接下來要就教的就是說,調查小組裡面你雖然納了外部成員但是你最後還是回到機關委員會裡面做這個定奪"},{"start":457.009,"end":485.35,"text":"那所以說這個公平性以現在草案的一個設計的話你說兩個月內完成報告然後外部成員不得少於二分之一這個都值得肯定但你調查結論又回到機關內部的防護委員會裡面來確認是否成立這個我就要問啦就是說你如果判斷最後還是委員會來做勢必也由他來做那你這個委員會又跟涉案的主管關係又這麼的密切"},{"start":486.789,"end":509.859,"text":"不要說整個站在端端 這樣的制度設計之下 基層人員他畢竟還是弱勢面對上次這樣的一個霸凌 不敢說申訴無門但如何再更一步的一個確保 讓這個申訴的公務人員 讓他去感受到他有真正的一個保護傘"},{"start":511.311,"end":539.102,"text":"我覺得這是很重要的尤其啊尤其啊那你碰到這種權勢霸凌的問題的時候申訴對象通通是一個典型啦通通是典型啦那這樣的申訴到底困不困難大家都可想而知啦大家都可想而知但是整個法制的一個建立啊當然是一件好事啦尤其是你說要全面的讓它完備那"},{"start":541.368,"end":554.084,"text":"方向是對的啦但至少先讓它去啟動啦那但是呢我也在特別來做一個叮嚀啦就這個制度喔你也必須要去正視它的一個風險啦你說說從申訴的階段"},{"start":557.993,"end":580.842,"text":"環務委員會開始那就必須要去恪守必要的一個匿名性跟它的一個保密性如果不開始 一個申訴之後全部全部都拆掉這個部分是我們整個設計要必須要去更完善的一個地方那我們更期待就是說訂這一部法律是要讓公務員遭遇到霸凌的時候不用在"},{"start":582.783,"end":590.99,"text":"很多都是隱忍到退休隱忍到退休然後呢讓申訴人這樣到最後還受到惡度的傷害這個程序我們就認為應該讓他更"},{"start":599.796,"end":626.661,"text":"對這個申訴人士更溫暖的所以本席也特別來提醒啦你安慰辦法裡面要求的是每一年去一次的定期主動的去做一個查核各機關的防護委員會的一個運作這個是最基本的一個要求啦最基本的要求不然搞不好你就搞不好都關關相護申訴調查沒有下文到最後變成形同具聞啦那這個制度就會讓受害人越來越沉默"},{"start":627.521,"end":640.259,"text":"你受害人去申訴的人越來越沉默的話就形同你讓大齡者就越來越猖狂我相信這個部分我們要特別去著墨的地方好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時9分）謝謝主席，大家就不用打招呼了，官員都坐在那邊。我們今天審這個新增草案為針對職場霸凌。秘書長有去休息了吧？不讓秘書長離開的話，好像審這個霸凌有點怪怪的，好像我們委員會在霸凌他一樣。雖然在司法及法制委員會裡面的議題常常劍拔弩張，但是涉及到基本健康、人權，雖要監督官員，但也都是公務人員，尤其是高級文官，這些都是國家好不容易栽培出來的。","今天針對公務人員保障法跟公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法新增的職權霸凌專章，我們來看看這個制度到底有沒有缺口？針對公務人員保障法草案授權安衛辦法新增職場霸凌專節，有幾個問題就教，我相信今天早上聽了以後，對於修法方向，其實朝野都表達正面的態度，畢竟在公務體系裡面不乏層級明確、權責非常集中、升遷仰賴評比制度的設計，所以權勢霸凌不但是真實的存在，而且很難揭露。過去在公務機關，尤其公務人員身分在法制上沒有那麼健全的時候，還在特別權力關係底下，存在很多不為外界所知的職權霸凌，現在社會也高度重視。","在這一次草案裡面，我發現了幾個問題，如果霸凌者的權責是上級的話，申訴程序如何真正保障申訴人，也就是客觀性。現在草案的設計，遭遇職場霸凌的公務人員可以向所屬機關的防護委員會申訴，由委員會來決定是否受理。那我要請教保訓會一個簡單的問題，如果疑似霸凌者跟委員會成員之間都很熟識、又是同單位，甚至平常就存在上下階層，這就是公務機關的常態，請問這樣的制度設計怎樣保障申訴人能夠很安心的去做申訴？這是不是可以先回答？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員的指教。跟委員報告，這一次我們會希望能夠擴大外部成員的專家學者，讓外部人員進來的主要原因是機關如果有成立公務人員協會，至少要有一名公務人員協會的代表，希望透過這樣的機制確保案子不會被吃掉、不會被搓掉，這是第一點；第二點，除了安全衛生防護委員會以外，目前各機關都有很多管道，像有首長信箱，他也可以向上級機關申訴、投書等等，目前各院跟各機關也都有在運作這些機制；第三點，因為整個政府組織層級節制的特性，它是雙面刃，它可以讓這些機關首長還有各級主管負起責任，如果他知悉有霸凌卻沒有處理，他是要受到很多處罰的，這個是它的一個好處，這是我們新加入的。當然也沒有錯，就像委員講的：我認識你，我一輩子都跟你在同一個機關。萬一剛好霸凌的那個人是機關的副首長，因為我們現在明定是副首長或者是幕僚長，那這個案情會不會真的被吃掉？所以我們現在想透過更多元的方式，他一個人要吃案子，其實他要經過很多關卡，第一個是人事單位，因為組成裡面一定有人事人員；第二個是外部學者；第三個是政風，如果這樣他還能夠把那個案子吃掉，就我們的判斷，現在實務上應該是不太可能。","另外有一個統計數字是，其實越年輕的世代越勇於揭發在機關裡面受到不合理的對待；過去幾年裡面，我們接到霸凌案件還有做成的案件，以去年來講是36件，但是光從去年底到現在，我們接到的再申訴，光是霸凌案件就已經超過90件，表示這個文化是大家逐漸敢來再申訴，所以對於委員擔心的問題，我們會在它通過以後持續觀察，會透過比較多的機制。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我在想，保訓會對於這個也不用互相欺騙。機關裡面，第一個是「上下」；第二個是我們剛才講的「熟悉」，公務人員最怕的是什麼？事後在那個職場裡面的報復，提出申訴以後，常常伴隨著他以後的升遷，當事人會感到壓力，這其實是我們不能忽視的狀況。現在防護委員會裡面由副首長跟幕僚長擔任召集人，成員5到23人，外部人員不得少於三分之一，如果申訴對象是機關首長，雖然規定要迴避，整個機關文化裡面的層級壓力其實還是存在。如果加害者是副首長、處長或者課室主管，委員會成員關係密切的可能性更高了，導致委員會是不是會受理，或者可能被箝制在關係的網絡當中，這個都必須要再慎重。當霸凌者本身是機關權力核心時，保訓會如何確保委員會裡面客觀獨立程序的啟動，這都要特別特別的去關注。尤其常常到最後會被標籤化，機關內部會形成一種同仇敵愾，這個都不是沒有發生過。","接下來要就教的是，調查小組裡面雖然納入了外部成員，但最後還是回到機關委員會裡面做定奪，所以這個公平性，以現在草案的設計，你說兩個月內完成報告，外部成員不得少於二分之一，這都值得肯定，但調查結論又回到機關內部的防護委員會來確認是否成立？這我就要問了，如果最後判斷還是由委員會來做，也勢必是由他們來做，但委員會又跟涉案主管關係這麼密切，我不說這是「請鬼拿藥單」，在這樣的制度設計下，基層人員畢竟還是弱勢！面對上級的霸凌雖不敢說申訴無門，但如何再更進一步確保，讓該名申訴的公務人員可以感受到有真正的保護傘？我覺得這點非常重要。","在碰到權勢霸凌問題時，申訴對象往往是上司，所以這樣的申訴到底困不困難？我想大家可想而知。就整個法制建立來說，這當然是一件好事，尤其往全面完備的方向是對的，但至少要先啟動。不過我要特別叮嚀，那就是要正視這項制度的風險，從申訴階段的防護委員會開始，就必須恪守必要的「匿名性」及「保密性」，否則開始申訴之後，大家就全知道了，這部分是整個設計必須要更完善的地方。我們更期待的是，訂這部法律可以讓公務人員在遭遇霸凌時無須隱忍到退休！很多人都隱忍到退休，甚至在申訴的最後還受到二度傷害，所以我們認為程序上應該對申訴人是更溫暖的。為此本席特別提醒，安衛辦法要求每年定期主動查核一次各機關防護委員會的運作，這是最基本的要求，否則都官官相護，致申訴調查沒有下文，到最後形同具文，如此這個制度就會讓受害人越來越沉默！當受害人、申訴的人越來越沉默，形同讓霸凌者越來越猖狂，我想這部分是我們要特別著墨的地方，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162286","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5647187b723749df34433769fbc08eef2e946063d171e8badfa0b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"11:11:02 - 11:19:55","影片長度":"00:08:53","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T11:11:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:19:55+08:00","duration":533,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.34659375,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.122843750000001,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.50659375,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.87346875,"end":36.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.289718750000006,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.20034375,"end":240.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.97221875000002,"end":267.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.68534375,"end":327.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.23284375000003,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.76096875,"end":388.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.71284375000005,"end":437.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.30409375000005,"end":454.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.91346875000005,"end":472.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.25659375000004,"end":481.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.39034375000006,"end":519.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.42221875,"end":523.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.81409375,"end":524.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.5222187500001,"end":531.67784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":5.981,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6.118,"end":34.725,"text":"好 理事長首先本席要在這邊特別感謝理事長在上禮拜一的時候到了基隆來參觀來這邊考察有關這個和平島的那個西班牙古蹟的事情那未來在於這個西班牙古蹟基隆四百年的案子裡面是站很重要的一塊那這邊特地感謝李部長特地來基隆一趟也瞭解了說基隆這個和平島的西班牙古蹟未來的走向然後也是確認說未來會部裡面會繼續大力支持我們這一塊"},{"start":36.065,"end":64.775,"text":"而今天我們講到這個UNESCO的事情那我自己個人以前在15年前曾經在外交部任職的時候去過波蘭也就是波蘭的時候去過看過兩個UNESCO看過兩個這個世界遺跡一個是這個奧斯維辛的這個集中營另外一個是他們的一個記憶力很深刻是一個地下的鹽礦所做出來的教堂"},{"start":65.555,"end":91.302,"text":"那他們這個教堂裡面甚至可以大道說我記得沒錯的話當時我在那邊有聽了一場交響樂而且在那邊有等於是一個國賓上面的一個款待所以我會認為說我們未來如果我們這個所謂的世界遺產的這個申請我們可以朝那個方向讓整個我們台灣的這世界遺產讓全世界都看到不過"},{"start":92.362,"end":110.487,"text":"中間來講我記得以前在清華大學任教的時候曾經有一句話我記得好像是黃義農院士有提出一個想法就是所謂的文化是一群人的共同記憶那這一點來講我認為跟我們現在要做的事情應該有些在價值上的一致"},{"start":114.048,"end":127.224,"text":"那我們臺灣雖然擁有豐富跟集聚世界遺產的自然文化跟資產但是我們現在不是聯合國的議員所以我們在申請上面一向都遇到一些狀況可是我也在這邊要提醒說我們的潛力點第一個就是說"},{"start":131.763,"end":158.892,"text":"像是波蘭因為他們過去的地理跟歷史的原因所以他們有許多的已經成功申請成為世界遺產的一些景點那未來的時候那是不是省部裡面也可以好好去考慮說不是單純是把這個文化價值把它體現出來而是用故事甚至用觀光的方式繼續去把這個潛力點提早讓世界上的人知道"},{"start":159.492,"end":175.689,"text":"因為像是奧西維茲這個集中營當然裡面記載的是二次世界大戰的慘狀跟包括納粹當初怎麼樣對待猶太人很多不人道的作風裡面的細節我心生看到我就不想再提那個慘狀"},{"start":176.65,"end":199.589,"text":"但是另外一個像是說我剛剛提到他們的地下鹽礦裡面甚至有一個教堂在裡面而且足夠大到說裡面可以用交響樂跟一些餐敘的方式來去讓各國的嘉賓讓各國的旅遊觀光人口願意進來這邊來去一方面是了解這天然的美景另外一方面也是說製造一個差不多我記得沒錯"},{"start":200.47,"end":228.71,"text":"奧西維茲那次的集中營整個故事的講解跟他們所有的整個side scene就是整個景點的觀光有差不多要到150分鐘以上那同樣的在如果說我們在裡面聽一場交響樂而且在裡面參觀了整個所謂的這個地下鹽礦的教堂的話我記得也是差不多兩個多小時是不是可以請部裡面在未來這些潛力點推動的時候也把觀光的元素放進去"},{"start":229.31,"end":240.266,"text":"因為我會認為沒有行銷的話對於說整個故事的詮釋對於說這個實質上的應用我會覺得很可惜那不知道李市長是不是認同我現在這樣的想法"},{"start":241.358,"end":267.268,"text":"真的非常謝謝委員的提醒跟建議我想這是一個非常好的方向怎麼樣在我們能夠拿到考試資格之前我們先把我們這個準備那準備的方式不是只有做一個很硬式的文本而是能夠從用故事的敘述然後先用觀光的方式讓更多人能夠理解到我們有這麼樣的一個珍貴的文化資產然後再來去講我們的硬式資格這個部分我們會努力"},{"start":267.768,"end":281.724,"text":"好 謝謝理事長那第二點本期想特地提醒就是說我記得看到好像有18個潛力點那18個潛力點我會認為如果真的我們要推進讓全世界知道甚至盡快的進入世界遺產"},{"start":282.705,"end":305.287,"text":"中的景點的話是不是我們可以集中活力或集中資源來去推廣特技幾個景點像是說我當然部裡面有個當然有各方面的考量可是如果一同一時間直接18個點一起推進去的話我認為讓這個聯合國他們的系統能夠很快來審查甚至說他讓這個景點有名到說全世界的人都覺得台灣這個景點"},{"start":306.428,"end":327.18,"text":"是非常值得我們去看的是非常值得紀念而且有價值那變成是世界上獲不可缺的一點那是不是可以請部裡面針對未來這18個景點是不是能夠想辦法去集中集中到說假設4個到3個那這樣去推廣的時候這樣去推進的時候我會認為是不是比較有可行性呢"},{"start":328.307,"end":346.347,"text":"好 真的謝謝委員我們推動委員會的委員的想法跟林委員您一樣所以我們其實在前兩年的推動會裡面有討論出說就是要集中火力那目前為止我們是先集中火力在阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀這個案子那剛剛我們那個"},{"start":347.889,"end":352.351,"text":"有其他委員提醒我們說因為阿里山鐵路它其實非常有特殊性可是它的維持也非常非常的困難所以颱風來它可能就斷線所以有時候如果我們邀請一些國外的具有這些世界遺產審查資格的委員們來台灣看的時候他不一定能夠看到阿里山所以我們的確也可能就是會選二到三個備選的名單這樣成為一個領先群"},{"start":377.809,"end":394.887,"text":"把我們的資源集中活力在三到四個潛力點上面去做好他們的準備工作跟對外宣揚的工作這個部分我們正在朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝理事長因為我認為說這個資源的集中能夠把這景點做出來這是很重要的一塊"},{"start":395.527,"end":424.746,"text":"那另外一方面就是當然是正面來講就支援其中到兩到三個可是我們現在18個景點可能未來會更多但是如果說短期之間無法讓它在國際之間能夠發光能夠曝光度能夠提高而且讓它發光發熱的話我也想請教說我們的文化部有沒有所謂的就是不是說現在不不是說就永遠不推而是說暫時性的退場機制是不是我們有考慮到這一點也就是說重點集中在某些地方"},{"start":425.086,"end":437.331,"text":"但是有些地方目前甚至說經費太過大而這個價值或者說整個景點吸引度不夠的時候是不是可以開始考慮說集中火力而且避免浪費資源呢"},{"start":439.389,"end":456.483,"text":"所以我們所擬定的是一個叫做臺灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點我們的確有想到說如果有一些地方他可能在保存上面地方政府或是主管機關不夠積極的時候或許我們可以放棄"},{"start":456.983,"end":480.803,"text":"可是目前為止我們每一次在推動委員會在討論這目前的18個潛力點都覺得還是有可以努力的地方那主管機關也還在努力中所以我們目前並我們有這樣的要點只是還沒有選出來因為他還是要透過這些委員們共同決定說要做除名了我們才會有一個議法的程序"},{"start":481.445,"end":502.405,"text":"好 謝謝市長那主要今天本期的資訊主要針對三點就第一個我們應該要我們應該試著要把觀光的元素放進去讓更多人知道這樣子的話價值會提高那第二個來講也是很簡單的就是說集中火力 集中資源把一件事與其說什麼都做倒不如把一兩件事做好那第三點當然是可能有必要當然每一個"},{"start":503.266,"end":524.43,"text":"列為現在的推動點列為現在的潛力點都是很珍貴的存在但是或許在這個時候在這個增多增多周少的情況之下或許我們可以先考慮一下暫時哪些先不要推或許對於說未來整個整個計畫推動會有更好的更好的效果謝謝委員的提醒跟建議我們會照這個方向來處理好謝謝次長好謝謝林沛翔委員次長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時11分）主席，有請李次長。"],["主席：好，有請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：李次長。首先本席要在這邊特別感謝李次長在上禮拜一的時候到基隆參觀，來這邊考察有關和平島西班牙古蹟的事情，這個西班牙古蹟在基隆400年的案子裡面占了很重要的一塊。這邊特別感謝李次長特地來基隆一趟，也了解基隆和平島的西班牙古蹟未來的走向，也確認了未來部裡面會繼續大力支持我們這一塊。","而今天我們講到UNESCO的事情，我個人在15年前曾經在外交部任職，當時曾經去過波蘭。在波蘭的時候，有去看過兩個被列入的UNESCO世界遺跡，一個是奧斯威辛的集中營，另外記憶很深刻的是一個地下鹽礦所做出來的教堂，這個教堂裡面甚至可以大到……我記得沒錯的話，當時我在那邊有聽了一場交響樂，等於是一個國賓上面的款待。我認為未來世界遺產的申請，我們可以朝那個方向，讓臺灣的世界遺產被全世界都看到。","不過我記得以前在清華大學任教的時候，曾經有一句話，我記得好像是黃一農院士有提出一個想法，就是所謂的文化是一群人的共同記憶。這一點來講，我認為跟我們現在要做的事情，在方向、在價值上應該有些一致。臺灣雖然擁有豐富跟極具世界遺產的自然文化跟資產，但是我們現在不是聯合國的一員，所以我們在申請上面一向都遇到一些狀況，可是我也在這邊要提醒我們的潛力點，第一個，像波蘭因為他們過去歷史、地理的原因，所以他們有許多已經成功申請成為世界遺產的一些景點。未來是不是部裡面也可以好好去考慮，不是單純的把這個文化價值體現出來而已，而是用故事，甚至用觀光的方式，把這個潛力點提早讓世界上的人知道？像奧斯威辛這一個集中營，裡面記載的是二次世界大戰的慘狀，包括納粹當初怎麼樣對待猶太人，很多不人道的作風，裡面的細節我親眼看到，我就不想再提那個慘狀。但是另外一個像是我剛剛提到他們的地下鹽礦，裡面甚至有一個教堂，而且大到足夠可以用交響樂跟一些餐敘的方式，讓各國的嘉賓、各國的旅遊觀光人口願意進來，一方面是了解這天然的美景，另外一方面也製造一個……我記得沒錯的話，奧斯威辛那一次的集中營，整個故事的講解跟他們所有整個景點的觀光差不多要到150分鐘以上。同樣的，如果我們在裡面聽一場交響樂，而且在裡面參觀整個地下鹽礦的教堂，我記得也是差不多兩個多小時。是不是可以請部裡面在未來推動這些潛力點的時候，也把觀光的元素放進去？因為沒有行銷的話，對於整個故事的詮釋、對於實質上的應用，我會覺得很可惜。不知道李次長是不是認同我這樣的想法？"],["李次長靜慧：真的非常謝謝委員的提醒跟建議，我想這是一個非常好的方向，怎麼樣在我們能夠拿到考試資格之前先把這個準備好，準備的方式不是只有做一個很硬式的文本，而是能夠用故事的敘述，先用觀光的方式，讓更多人能夠理解我們有這麼樣一個珍貴的文化資產，再去講我們的應試資格，這個部分我們會努力。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝李次長。第二點，本席想特地提醒，我記得看到好像有18個潛力點，我認為如果我們真的要推進讓全世界知道，甚至儘快進入世界遺產之中的景點的話，是不是我們可以集中火力或集中資源，推廣特定的幾個景點？部裡面當然有各方面的考量，可是如果同一時間直接18個點一起推進的話，我認為能夠讓聯合國的系統很快來審查，甚至讓這個景點有名到全世界的人都覺得，臺灣這個景點是非常值得他們去看的，是非常值得紀念而且有價值，變成世界上不可缺的一點。是不是可以請部裡面針對未來這18個景點，能夠想辦法集中到假設4個到3個？這樣去推廣、推進的時候，是不是比較有可行性呢？"],["李次長靜慧：真的謝謝委員，我們推動委員會委員的想法跟林委員一樣，我們其實在前兩年的推動會裡面有討論出要集中火力。目前為止，我們是先集中火力在阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀這個案子。剛剛也有其他委員提醒我們，因為阿里山鐵路其實非常有特殊性，可是它的維持也非常非常的困難，颱風來它可能就斷線，如果我們邀請一些國外具有世界遺產審查資格的委員們來臺灣看的時候，他們不一定能夠看到阿里山。因此我們的確也可能會選2到3個備選名單，這樣成為一個領先群，把我們的資源集中火力在3到4個潛力點上面，去做好他們的準備工作跟對外宣揚的工作，我們正在朝這個方向努力。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝李次長。我認為資源的集中能夠把這些景點做出來，這是很重要的一塊。另外一方面，當然以正面來講，就是資源集中到2到3個，可是我們現在18個景點可能未來會更多，如果短期之間無法讓它在國際間提高曝光度、發光發熱的話，我也想請教，文化部有沒有所謂的……不是就永遠不推，而是暫時性的退場機制，是不是你們有考慮到這一點？也就是說，重點集中在某些地方，但是有些地方目前或甚至經費過大，而價值或者整個景點吸引度不夠的時候，是不是可以開始考慮集中火力而且避免浪費資源呢？"],["李次長靜慧：我們所擬定的是一個叫做「臺灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點」，我們的確有想到，如果有一些地方可能在保存上面，地方政府或是主管機關不夠積極的時候，或許我們可以放棄。只是目前為止，每一次推動委員會在討論目前18個潛力點時都覺得還是有可以努力的地方，主管機關也還在努力中。我們有這樣的要點，只是還沒有選出來，因為還是要透過這些委員們共同決定要除名，我們才會有一個依法的程序。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝次長。今天本席的質詢主要是在那三點。第一個，我們應該試著要把觀光的元素放進去，讓更多人知道，這樣子的話價值會提高；第二個，也是很簡單的，就是集中火力、集中資源，與其什麼都做，倒不如把一、兩件事做好；第三個，當然每一個列為現在的推動點、潛力點都是很珍貴的存在，但是在這個僧多粥少的情況之下，或許我們可以先考慮哪些暫時先不要推，也許對於未來整個計畫的推動會有更好的效果。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提醒跟建議，我們會照這個方向處理。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝次長。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員，次長請回。","現在先處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案計1案，請宣讀。（參閱附錄）","鑒於我國工藝技術發展迅速，並且在地工藝、原民工藝及生活工藝等繼續融入民眾生活，也因重視台灣工藝發展，文化部將「臺灣工藝之父」顏水龍創立之「南投縣工藝研究班」改制為國立臺灣工藝研究發展中心（下稱為工藝中心），工藝中心過去除培育多位國寶級工藝大師，亦積極推動臺灣工藝文化產業發展，致力於培育臺灣工藝技藝人才與推動落實工藝生活美學，顯見文化部以及民間工藝人才對於台灣工藝技藝日漸重視。","2025年工藝中心舉辦台灣工藝季等活動，文化部李遠部長致詞時表示台灣終將成為工藝島而工藝可以讓人傳遞感情、勞動與生活，更指出剛上任時參加鹿港魯班公宴，對於各式工藝品更是感動不已，顯示工藝就在生活之中，也最能讓人喚醒生活熱情，文化部應積極向我國民眾推廣台灣優秀工藝技藝，並落實工藝生活。","爰此，建請文化部評估將6月5日工藝日設為台灣工藝節，將台灣工藝節提升至國家紀念日及節日層級，以表文化部對於我國工藝之重視，並研議配合台灣工藝節舉辦工藝週及工藝月等相關紀念活動，請文化部於兩個月內提出具體作法，以維我國工藝技藝精神之傳承。","提案人：陳秀寳　　郭昱晴　　林宜瑾","連署人：范　雲　　"],["主席：提案委員有沒有要補充說明？"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主席。今天是6月5號，我在這邊祝福各位工藝師工藝節快樂。其實工藝是很沉默的，當沒有作品呈現的時候，我們都感受不到他們在作品後面默默地付出，一件很精彩絕艷讓大家感動的作品是工藝人多少時日的付出，不只從學藝、從創作，都是他們對工藝的熱愛及堅持。我在這邊提案是希望我們呼應今天6月5號是國際永續議題的世界環境日，也寓意我們一起關注工藝跟自然共生的永續精神，希望工藝日不只是工藝人的工藝日，也是我們一起支持、肯定工藝師的工藝節，能夠提升到國定節日的層級，我們一起支持工藝，也肯定工藝人的付出，以上。"],["主席：次長，有沒有要補充的？"],["李次長靜慧：真的謝謝委員的提醒，我想照顧工藝師，讓工藝師在社會上有地位，讓大家意識到工藝是我們生活的一部分，這是文化部非常積極努力也應該做的事情，所以對於這個案子，我們遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，這個案子就照案通過，OK。提案如果有委員要補簽，請到我的左手方找議事人員，議事人員會詳細登載在議事錄。","接著進行質詢，接下來請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564784a2cfd51dfbcfa9f0f8eeb1de8c89c46063d171e8badfa854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:51:25 - 11:00:53","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:51:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:00:53+08:00","duration":568,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.93784375,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.41596875,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.43284375,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.60159375,"end":74.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.71971875,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.20909375000001,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.22596875,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.47971875,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.91284375000001,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.69534375,"end":146.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.41721875000002,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.69471875000002,"end":172.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.68721875,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.58971875,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.79221875000002,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.88909375,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.76659375,"end":232.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.93096875,"end":236.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.53409375,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.62659375000004,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.53221875,"end":303.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.40534375000004,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.58221875000004,"end":345.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.57596875,"end":348.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.26346875,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.28784375000004,"end":356.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.12284375,"end":366.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.51909375,"end":359.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.65409375,"end":359.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.03284375000004,"end":398.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.47034375000004,"end":402.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.23784375,"end":419.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.86534375,"end":413.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.79659375,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.52221875000004,"end":423.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.97346875000005,"end":423.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.82971875000004,"end":428.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.85471875,"end":426.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.45346875,"end":431.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.94221875000005,"end":456.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.78971875,"end":437.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.29721875,"end":456.49971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.73596875000004,"end":461.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.11909375000005,"end":518.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.6840937500001,"end":542.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.8828437500001,"end":565.1240937499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.386,"end":23.754,"text":"主席 我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委"},{"start":25.074,"end":40.431,"text":"那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說"},{"start":41.752,"end":69.338,"text":"職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以"},{"start":69.838,"end":93.921,"text":"成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案"},{"start":94.417,"end":113.033,"text":"那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來"},{"start":113.666,"end":139.371,"text":"那歧視侮辱言行或其他方式敵意脅迫冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立"},{"start":142.196,"end":153.782,"text":"不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好 謝謝"},{"start":155.031,"end":172.503,"text":"那我還是要說以目前定義來看我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼我來告訴 您知道嗎"},{"start":177.628,"end":205.664,"text":"我沒有很清楚 那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異"},{"start":207.105,"end":232.121,"text":"定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告"},{"start":236.641,"end":265.027,"text":"情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某"},{"start":266.185,"end":283.142,"text":"這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的"},{"start":283.682,"end":305.239,"text":"這一次 就即使一次 但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢 他可能開始這個失眠 然後害怕去上班然後等等的 要造成很多很多的身心症 甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節 這個重大者以上跟委員報告"},{"start":306.601,"end":326.21,"text":"我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個"},{"start":327.17,"end":356.415,"text":"例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧"},{"start":357.185,"end":380.375,"text":"就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施"},{"start":381.115,"end":394.665,"text":"否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字"},{"start":404.261,"end":430.942,"text":"跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的這是指過去有成案的不到十件應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低"},{"start":433.22,"end":461.092,"text":"每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訊會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訊會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定"},{"start":462.148,"end":480.368,"text":"我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場,尤其是來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛,"},{"start":481.109,"end":500.138,"text":"那這個過程當中 公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這就是今天我們會有這個所謂的討論 也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例 那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛"},{"start":500.598,"end":518.016,"text":"那第一時間根據調查小組的回報他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌"},{"start":518.777,"end":541.313,"text":"那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說"},{"start":543.004,"end":564.464,"text":"我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時51分）主席、在場的委員跟官員。首先，還是先跟劉秘書長致意一下，身體還是最重要的，所以我待會的質詢主要會問保訓會主委，但是如果秘書長在您許可的範圍內要補充的話，也歡迎，我大概主要是問保訓會主委。","本次公務人員保障法修法，預計要比照職業安全衛生法，正式納入職場霸凌的定義。因此，我首先想請教主委，現在定義為「職場霸凌指本機關人員於職務上假藉權勢或機會，逾越職務上正當合理範圍，持續以歧視、侮辱言行或其他方式，造成敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性之不友善工作環境，致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害。但情節重大者，不以持續發生為必要。」，你覺得這個定義是否足夠明確，可以讓公家機關職場霸凌申訴成案，而且消除舉證上的困難呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。跟委員報告，有關職場霸凌的定義其實非常多，且不太一樣，我們整理了、經過很多法制徵詢、也參採了勞動部的草案。以目前來講，如果要說能不能夠具體為機關參採，我想在這些部分中，逾越職務上正當合理範圍這點在公務現場可以判斷出來，對於以歧視、侮辱言行或其他方式造成敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性等情況，其實有通念，顯示也是可以的。當然，我想委員要提醒我們的是在不同案例當中會不會造成機關判讀上的困難，那我跟委員報告，我們目前已經在著手建立機制，也就是根據過去職場霸凌的成立跟不成立案件加以分析，而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引。以上兩點跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝。但我還是要說，以目前定義來看，我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在啦！","那我想請教主委，你可知道在國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約中，對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼？您知道嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：我沒有很清楚，請委員教導。"],["羅委員智強：好，沒問題。公約載明，職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為、作法或威脅，無論是一次或持續發生，但是草案第一段主要是把職場霸凌要件定義為持續，這個部分跟國際標準有差異。當然，第一段也講了一句：「情節重大者，不以持續發生為必要」，這是例外條款嘛！可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大？標準是什麼？我想請教一下主委，可以概略說明一下什麼叫情節重大嗎？怎麼在不同情節當中做出判斷？我在講的是不明確的問題啦！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，情節重大當然是透過申訴當事人舉證造成他什麼樣的身心傷害，基本上，他在提申訴的時候一定會有醫生證明等相關資料，這是第一。第二就是什麼叫做情節重大？舉個例子來講，如果今天某甲是主管，對某乙做出一次性或一連串辱罵、甚至用摔公文等方式導致一次性的創傷，也就是僅此一次、但已經是超乎常人可以接受，也就是我們所講通念可以接受的，導致這個人開始失眠、害怕上班等等，造成很多身心症，甚至開始懷疑自己的能力，這當然就屬於這種情節重大者。以上跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛主委講了很多啦！但我覺得實際判準上就有很多狀況滿主觀的，也不容易做客觀的判準，這就是為什麼公約裡面直接原則性地強調不論是一次還是持續發生，而不以所謂的情節重大作為例外事例的規範，其實我覺得這一點在立法例上還是可以參考。","另外想請教一下，在過去5年：2020年到2024年，根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計，總共有83件職場霸凌通報嘛！對不對？我得到的數據是這樣。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，83件是指我們已經做成的決定。"],["羅委員智強：霸凌通報啦！沒錯吧！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：那是再申訴部分，也就是機關端認定不符以後，當事人到保訓會進行再申訴的案件。"],["羅委員智強：我大概列舉一下，其實樣態包括威脅考績乙等、遭機關懲處、同仁肢體攻擊、語言霸凌、不當工作指派或威脅調動、不准請假、不當管理措施、否准加班申請、積壓公文、刁難請假、退公文等等，其中以言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多，這是我們將所看到的資料大概整理出來的態樣。請問在這83件裡面，最後成案幾件？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，更詳細的資料請容我們會後提供給您。"],["羅委員智強：我昨天其實有跟你們調了啦！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前成案的─這是指過去成案的不到10件，應該在6件左右。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯，我這邊的數字是8件啦！比例是連一成都不到。秘書長，為什麼成案比例這麼低啊？"],["劉秘書長建忻：每個個案都應該照實際狀況處理啦！會到保訓會申訴者，有時候是霸凌申訴人，也可能是被認定霸凌成立的另一方當事人，他們不服這個決定都可以來救濟。而在救濟部分，保訓會這邊當然是先看程序面有沒有不完備之處，如果機關已經做了適當處理的話，通常也不一定要推翻那個決定。"],["羅委員智強：我跟秘書長和主委說，我自己也當過公務員，基層公務員做過2年，所以滿了解公務員所面臨來自職場、尤其來自上司的壓力是什麼，因為公務員這輩子的升遷主導權其實就在上級長官嘛！所以在這個過程當中、很多公務員文化裡面，他們面對霸凌的抵抗力相對是比較弱的，我們今天會有這番討論也是來自這個部分。","我就舉一個小案例。去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌，根據調查小組第一時間的回報，認為謝宜容的管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當，導致其他同仁有被職場霸凌的感受，認定管理不當不是主因，後來重新調查才認定為霸凌，顯見第二次調查之所以成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理，而是外部公眾的監督，那時候社會輿論壓力非常大。你也可以想像，不是每一個霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會公共關注度，因此今天建立制度才會變得非常重要。","最後我還是要講，我們其實非常不樂見公務同仁在為國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到惡劣霸凌的環境，法制化怎麼讓公務員可以安心的工作，這是我們大家共同要努力的部分。所以今天尤其是關於「持續」跟「重大」的認定，我還是希望主管機關能夠再持續審酌一下，以上。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。我們就依先前的宣告，現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續開會詢答。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","我們先請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不到。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162282","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162282","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564d2c3a20c517486ebcd8722aad0b92e7f46063d171e8badfa8c3f6bbd0a8feaf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:55:46 - 11:06:40","影片長度":"00:10:54","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:55:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:06:40+08:00","duration":654,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.68034375,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.35096875,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.764093750000001,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.452843750000003,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.78096875,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.91159375,"end":35.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.244718750000004,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.37471875,"end":41.712218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.931593750000005,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.15471875,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.580343750000004,"end":49.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.57596875,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.87096875,"end":55.009718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.48221875,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.157218750000006,"end":57.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.45534375,"end":67.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.22284375000001,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.64034375,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.31096875,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.70221875,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.30909375,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.43971875000001,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.78534375000001,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.46034375,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.51909375000001,"end":93.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.21034375,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.89346875000001,"end":97.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.85096875,"end":100.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.21784375,"end":101.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.61409375000001,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.78221875000001,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.68471875,"end":109.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.95471875000001,"end":111.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.01346875,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.64596875000001,"end":117.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.79346875,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.24471875,"end":123.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.28159375000001,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.86721875,"end":133.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.87096875,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.23784375,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.50346875,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.71784375000001,"end":141.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.85471875000002,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.03596875000002,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.70659375,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.93409375000002,"end":161.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.63409375,"end":164.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.51971875,"end":167.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.80221875,"end":167.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.06784375,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.40471875,"end":174.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.97846875000002,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.88971875000001,"end":176.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.54346875000002,"end":184.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.13784375,"end":180.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.17159375,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.55534375000002,"end":184.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.87534375,"end":190.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.98846875,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.87846875000002,"end":192.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.89534375000002,"end":193.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.30409375000002,"end":200.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.93221875,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.71596875,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.95971875,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.14534375000002,"end":213.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.36784375000002,"end":229.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.31159375000001,"end":230.37471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.89784375000002,"end":235.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.84221875000003,"end":241.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.55846875,"end":249.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.83159375000002,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.23909375,"end":295.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.96784375000004,"end":305.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.99159375,"end":316.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.72409375,"end":318.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.77846875,"end":320.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.58846875,"end":321.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.29284375000003,"end":324.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.11096875000004,"end":327.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.45221875000004,"end":330.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.78096875,"end":330.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.81471875,"end":340.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.43346875000003,"end":360.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.62846875,"end":373.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.38596875,"end":375.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.41096875000005,"end":379.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.71846875,"end":382.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.23284375000003,"end":386.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.53159375,"end":387.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.91534375000003,"end":391.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.81346875,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.51346875,"end":397.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.77471875000003,"end":398.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.74909375000004,"end":402.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.09034375000005,"end":407.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.89534375000005,"end":410.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.49409375000005,"end":411.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.96659375,"end":413.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.71721875000003,"end":422.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.77909375,"end":428.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.49971875,"end":431.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.84534375000004,"end":433.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.48221875,"end":435.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.04721875,"end":437.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.54471875,"end":440.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.63284375,"end":452.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.85596875000005,"end":445.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.37034375,"end":447.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.37846875,"end":449.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.11221875,"end":452.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.95596875,"end":459.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.40221875000003,"end":460.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.41909375,"end":459.45284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.31346875,"end":472.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.70409375,"end":475.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.82159375000003,"end":477.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.79596875000004,"end":482.65596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.01471875000004,"end":483.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.26346875,"end":491.09346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.57971875000004,"end":484.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.01784375000005,"end":489.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.69659375000003,"end":512.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.72534375000004,"end":498.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.17471875,"end":511.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.42346875,"end":520.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.60784375,"end":522.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.0715937500001,"end":524.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.65784375,"end":526.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.6953437500001,"end":529.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.5303437499999,"end":532.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.0109687500001,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.2934687500001,"end":535.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.8290937500001,"end":537.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.2422187500001,"end":544.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.8740937499999,"end":546.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.9834687499999,"end":559.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.28096875,"end":564.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.30971875,"end":569.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.7390937499999,"end":575.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.00846875,"end":586.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.7665937500001,"end":586.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.57221875,"end":590.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.91784375,"end":589.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.1284687500001,"end":616.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.24159375,"end":598.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.2453437500001,"end":602.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.4553437500001,"end":605.9109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.78846875,"end":607.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.44159375,"end":612.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.10346875,"end":624.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.52409375,"end":627.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.33784375,"end":636.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.72471875,"end":637.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.12534375,"end":647.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.3178437500001,"end":653.2959687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.691,"end":12.498,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好"},{"start":16.525,"end":40.583,"text":"辛苦了 主委 我想齁 其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師 包括工程人員 包括薪資這些是很膨脹的啦 要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是齁 我們可以盡量去想啦 盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度"},{"start":42.042,"end":69.756,"text":"就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為"},{"start":71.38,"end":82.205,"text":"最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是"},{"start":98.905,"end":121.875,"text":"要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票"},{"start":124.503,"end":142.159,"text":"還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦"},{"start":143.191,"end":167.317,"text":"那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說"},{"start":169.079,"end":183.475,"text":"我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場嘛我們會改成陰啦就是現在就是現在是得嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改"},{"start":186.268,"end":211.6,"text":"那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦"},{"start":213.135,"end":241.266,"text":"所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利 變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識"},{"start":242.646,"end":264.612,"text":"所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅講的那種你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大"},{"start":270.333,"end":286.775,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實"},{"start":288.457,"end":315.907,"text":"很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主義都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主義在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說"},{"start":316.967,"end":327.38,"text":"資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則"},{"start":328.753,"end":355.641,"text":"我請副主委來跟您說 包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做對 我想 我意思是我們政府民意要注意的 因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式 買一樣的衣服要再倒還是要修補的 那種的有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能 也有這種可能性啦"},{"start":356.201,"end":378.671,"text":"我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對"},{"start":380.538,"end":407.186,"text":"因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了"},{"start":408.919,"end":437.468,"text":"我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊"},{"start":442.102,"end":459.801,"text":"它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道"},{"start":460.362,"end":476.505,"text":"那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速所以這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救"},{"start":477.987,"end":490.534,"text":"這一點 拜託工程會跟我們合作一下後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係"},{"start":492.728,"end":513.837,"text":"他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT,只想要建所以他會走公共餐館採購那建完以後,那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分,他還可以採用政府採購他還可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意、了解"},{"start":521.701,"end":526.143,"text":"醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事啦所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設在工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼"},{"start":538.751,"end":559.422,"text":"這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想法所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候"},{"start":561.025,"end":569.35,"text":"假設我現在要不去 請注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好就是在促餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合"},{"start":572.199,"end":588.626,"text":"這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始"},{"start":591.227,"end":598.895,"text":"甚至有的是 比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦 我舉例高鐵的經營那鐵道局在做的時候一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛"},{"start":607.063,"end":626.855,"text":"那他一定有他的想法 但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候 也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了 這比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小 就希望主委 我們熟悉一下啦你要回到你以後有可能要再後退的結筆案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導"},{"start":628.57,"end":651.398,"text":"或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦 就是說醫療這個所在如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不是只有我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好 再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：辛苦了！主委。其實剛剛何欣純委員提到的，包括技師、工程人員和薪資，實在是非常龐雜，要叫你解決所有國家的問題，很困難，但是我們可以儘量去想有什麼比較好的制度，就像我要求了很多年，本來是兩億以上的工程儘量用最有利標，現在達到的比例已經升高了，當時其實我會拜託工程採最有利標的方向之外，就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列，為什麼呢？因為最低標的缺點就是低價搶標會降低品質，最有利標的優點當然就是會比較好，但是比較容易作弊，所以這很傷腦筋。現在我們的公共工程從10萬調到15萬元，這個部分一般幾千萬的工程要用最低標，還是用最有利標比較好？"],["陳主任委員金德：委員講的15萬以下的是小額採購，小額採購如果太低的話，是製造公務人員的困擾。"],["許委員智傑：對，沒錯。"],["陳主任委員金德：比如說買一張機票要比價的話，那就很麻煩，真的有人因此而觸法，買機票還要三家比價嗎？小額採購我們是希望提升到……"],["許委員智傑：主委，這個更改我還蠻認同的啦。"],["陳主任委員金德：提高到15萬啦，15萬事實上也不多啦，但是總是不要讓公務人員不小心就觸法，而且增加很多麻煩。我也認同剛才委員的建議，就是在開標的時候如果是用評選的，最有利標，那我們希望……"],["許委員智傑：怎麼去分？"],["陳主任委員金德：主計、政風應到場，我們會按照委員的意見修改相關的作業辦法。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在就是我們的最有利標，都有希望他們應到場。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會改成「應」。"],["許委員智傑：就是現在是「得」，對不對？我們會改成「應」到場，什麼時候可以改？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委來說明。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員，我們這個辦法已經改成「應」通知政風、主計派人，是已經修改，所以目前看起來派員的比例在持續增加當中。"],["許委員智傑：好，這個對政風、主計比較不好意思，會增加很多的工作，但是這個會讓公務員做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦，所以我覺得這可以繼續推動。今天其實公務員不敢擔當，最怕就是剛剛主委講到的，如果我比價沒有做好，就變圖利、變貪污，製造困擾，公務員如果這樣子，檢察官又不特別明察，就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於任事，所以我們也會要求法務部那邊，就像剛剛有委員講到懲戒之前要先有一個內部的審核，不要隨便就送懲戒，因為你要保護技師，有時候他考上很不簡單，跟素月講的一樣，你一下就把他送懲戒，這對他們傷害很大，所以我的意思就是，你們要送檢察官起訴之前儘量要先明察。我們其實要求法務部好幾年有關檢察官的起訴定罪比，但這部分都還是沒改善。","就公務員的部分來講，其實很多公務員希望有擔當，但是很多公務員很無奈的就是，他如果不注意就被起訴，吃不完兜著走，所以如果有政風、主計的參與，事實上對他們來講，他敢有擔當嘛，同時也有政風、主計在現場，他也不怕被亂想。有的想要亂來的，看到政風、主計在現場，他們就比較不敢亂來了，所以這部分，我希望能夠繼續推動。另外還有比如資格標加最低標、最有利標、純粹的最低標，這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟委員說明。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，就最有利標到底應該評選什麼項目，我們法規上面有做指引。"],["許委員智傑：我的意思是這方面你們再注意一下。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：因為你們要訂的時候，買新衣服可能有多種款式，買一樣的衣服，買好幾套，還是要修補，那種有可能等於是你用最低標跟用最有利標之間，可能也會有這種可能性。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：我意思就是工程會多想一些這種概略性的問題，在減少弊病跟保持品質的部分去找到一個平衡點，這個部分再拜託工程會思考一下。","最後，我再簡單拜託一下，BOT跟ROT的部分，促參法就現在工程會的角度來說，是財政部負責，對嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為這個業務已經移到財政部了。"],["許委員智傑：對嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["許委員智傑：鳳山車站就是落入這個問題，B（公共工程建設）是工程會的，對吧？B之後要OT的時候，發現不夠用，或是不好用，所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想，就像鳳山車站流標兩次，現在要標第三次了，我一直擔心這個標不出去。有一個問題就是，他們如果要符合本來的功能規範，現在可能要再花7、8億，從裡面再改建。所以B跟OT如果沒有一起思考，現在公共工程在工程會，促參法在財政部，但B是在工程會，OT才去財政部，結果OT的時候有問題要怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：它應該是整個計畫是同一個案。"],["許委員智傑：是的。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個計畫會經過行政院審查、核定，這是同時核定的，屬於BOT案。"],["許委員智傑：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：至於它的建造部分，它有基本設計，基本設計才是工程會審查的。"],["許委員智傑：我知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果機關招標有困難，我們也樂意來共同協調，或者提供一些意見來加速它以後……"],["許委員智傑：所以這就有兩個方向，一個方向就是鳳山車站要怎麼補救，這是一個，拜託工程會再協助我們一下。第二就是……"],["陳主任委員金德：已經完工了吧？"],["許委員智傑：對啊！完工了，所以後面它可能要變成ROT，ROT跟工程會有沒有關係？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我跟委員報告，它應該是一開始建的時候就沒有想要BOT，只想要建，所以它會走公共工程採購。"],["許委員智傑：是啊！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：等到建完以後，它就有兩種選擇，一個是有關經營管理的部分，它可以採用政府採購，也可以走促參，所以它後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能。"],["許委員智傑：其實我是凸顯這個問題，我們除了要解決這個問題之外，也讓主委了解，以後公共工程有可能BOT的，其實你一開始就要一起想了。現在公共建設在工程會，促參法又在財政部，要統合的時候，我建議每一個單位對未來有可能採OT的部分，都要在B的時候就一起想了。所以工程會這個部分是不是再思考一下、建議一下怎麼去把這個關係結合在一起？也就是說，全國很多的重大公共建設在要建的時候，以後有可能要OT，假設現在還沒蓋，主委你覺得要怎麼處理比較好？就是在促參跟公共工程的部分要怎麼樣去整合？"],["陳主任委員金德：這還是回到它的原案，原案在做可行性評估或是綜規的時候，它應該都要想到了，最好是原案就準備做BOT……"],["許委員智傑：原案就有打算以後要OT了。"],["陳主任委員金德：以後做什麼規劃，應該一開始就要考量，甚至潛在廠商就要進來討論了。"],["許委員智傑：對，潛在廠商現在……"],["陳主任委員金德：我舉例，像高鐵的經營……"],["許委員智傑：我是都鼓勵他們這麼做，但到最後都怕圖利。"],["陳主任委員金德：鐵道局在做的時候，一開始跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了，營運有它的想法，鐵道局在興建高鐵的時候也有它的想法，所以它一開始就要進來了，比較大的公共工程案是這樣。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在無論大案或小案，就是希望主委思考一下，以後遇到有可能要再做OT的那種BOT案，你們應該用什麼角度去宣導，或是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂，我們再來研究，以後這個地方如果有可能B要再OT的，就不要再分工程會跟財政部，看要怎麼整合，對臺灣以後所有的建設來做一個整體思考，不是只有我們鳳山車站而已，好不好？再拜託主委幫我研究一下，我們再討論，謝謝。"],["主席：休息10分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席（許委員智傑）：現在開始開會。","請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162281","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564d5ce1f85a70270b633769fbc08eef2e946063d171e8badfa6511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:54:50 - 11:05:20","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:54:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T11:05:20+08:00","duration":630,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.126593750000001,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.04909375,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.47096875,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.18971875,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.02471875000003,"end":283.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.41284375000004,"end":307.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.78409375,"end":285.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.99159375,"end":307.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.96596875,"end":367.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.53471875,"end":403.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.96346875,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.02659375,"end":407.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.10221875,"end":436.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.27096875,"end":409.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.82721875000004,"end":413.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.54284375000003,"end":423.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.16284375000004,"end":426.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.87034375,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.09346875000006,"end":439.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.11034375,"end":438.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.86096875000004,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.02471875000003,"end":445.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.35784375000003,"end":446.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.15096875,"end":449.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.91846875000005,"end":462.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.71534375000005,"end":454.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.77284375000005,"end":472.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.26096875,"end":497.80971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.99534375,"end":498.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.04596875000004,"end":505.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.18846875,"end":504.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.60596875000005,"end":584.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.62284375,"end":505.82534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.02409375,"end":585.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.0365937500001,"end":585.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3572187500001,"end":585.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.4922187500001,"end":585.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.9140937500001,"end":585.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.6228437500001,"end":596.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.96721875,"end":602.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.55284375,"end":611.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.41346875,"end":604.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.2397187500001,"end":622.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.08534375,"end":627.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.9797187500001,"end":625.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.30846875,"end":627.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.6965937500001,"end":628.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.18596875,"end":628.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.33784375,"end":628.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.73846875,"end":631.39221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":10.541,"text":"有請范雲委員好,謝謝昭緯,有請次長好,有請李次長"},{"start":19.056,"end":23.16,"text":"市長早我想首先要謝謝昭緯排了一個這麼非常有意義的這個世界文化遺產的這個潛力點那我覺得重新來看這個部分覺得比較遺憾的是從我剛剛聽到的就是文化部似乎不夠重視那自己在2002年沒錯吧就已經選出的18個台灣世界遺產潛力點"},{"start":45.899,"end":63.01,"text":"一方面除了預算太少因為剛剛有委員說能不能增加結果只有五千萬五千萬除了給現在十八個起立點平均起來一個只有多少五千除以十八一個三百餘萬那連要做一個相關的歷史研究"},{"start":63.53,"end":75.658,"text":"可能都不夠了更何況就是要更積極的做點什麼而且就態度上剛剛次長一直講說這個地方政府可以來申請地方政府如果什麼都不做的話那我們好像看你們今天給的報告除了邀請一些國際專家來協助說我們如何跟世界遺產群力據說UNESCO 據說如何爭取之外沒有具體可以做的事情"},{"start":90.808,"end":106.629,"text":"那以我看到這上面的這個樂生療養院那剛剛朝偉也有講到其實這整個的推動過程我們看到的是青年學生的努力沒有看到文化部曾經出來為他捍衛那跟交通之間的衝突怎麼解決"},{"start":107.33,"end":128.528,"text":"所以我真的覺得據說我們現在做很多新興的文化鼓勵可是已經有的文化潛力點卻相當消極那這是我覺得最遺憾的部分那我希望藉著朝偉重視這個部分我以淡水紅毛城及其周遭歷史建築是你們今天名列第二的"},{"start":128.948,"end":151.363,"text":"因為它涉及到剛剛張雅玲委員講說我們這個講出來會讓大家看到台灣跟中國不一樣台灣不是中國的一部分那如果自然景觀很難的話其實人文社會是最有意義的不管是原住民金馬戰地或者像淡水這個它就展現了我們的殖民歷史就是說西方文化"},{"start":152.324,"end":171.241,"text":"就是說進入台灣是非常早的那又具有戰略位置裡面的城堡那包含人文藝術自然景觀我們的世界級畫家陳承波多次以淡水名畫這部分就是紅毛城及其旁邊的歷史建築那在"},{"start":172.282,"end":176.046,"text":"你看2020年我當時質詢文化部鄭麗君前部長的時候就已經提到她當時面臨著文化保存跟輕軌開發的衝突2021年淡水的歷史文史專家"},{"start":187.837,"end":205.388,"text":"請我一起出來呼籲反對輕軌進入破壞這整個相關的水岸跟歷史建築老街等那很遺憾的據說新北市政府還是執意要這樣子開發所以輕軌就是目前在規劃中非常多淡水的"},{"start":205.768,"end":228.044,"text":"文史工作者擔心怕周遭的生態被破壞了從水案到相關的交通所以我以這個為例顯現遺產起立地也因為我們過於消極整個周遭的環境很可能因為地方政府不夠重視面臨破壞的危機所以文化部如何應對以輕軌對淡水紅毛城這個開發案"},{"start":231.787,"end":248.219,"text":"周圍的生態環境的影響這是個案那整體上我覺得就通案上我們有18個已經選出來景點在新增加之前他目前如果地方政府過於消極的話文化部似乎就放任這些潛力點"},{"start":250.781,"end":271.039,"text":"繼續沒有做好的維護我以我們的台灣的性別平權我們永遠在聯合國裡面進不去可是我們自己就以聯合國的標準自我努力的話別人會幫我們宣傳如果我們現在結合UNESCO就是說等級那最有的就是觀光跟歷史文化的價值我們都做不好的話"},{"start":271.86,"end":286.586,"text":"那別人也不會看到它的價值啊這個文化部是不是可以因為時間的緣故還有一題是不是可以在兩個月內給我一個書面報告如何改善好不好從個案到通案可是跟委員稍等一下"},{"start":287.626,"end":294.67,"text":"紅毛城這個案例上來講我們在去年7月份的時候有正式的韓赴交通部跟國發會我們要求這個輕軌案輕軌運輸計畫它的規劃設計相關書圖還有文化資產的監測計畫都必須要送文化部來審查所以我們還有這個機制可以去那問題是"},{"start":306.997,"end":333.798,"text":"她這整個的從開發當時交通部核准的時候文化部根本就好像是就是說不相干的一個第三者到現在一定要開發了你當然做這個部分是洋網補但是我還是覺得太消極了好不好一個韓式真的還是太消極了如果能夠積極邀請地方文史工作者的話我覺得才會有更積極的效果那這相關的報告是不是也可以給我辦公室一個好不好好"},{"start":335.079,"end":356.357,"text":"那再来就是也是一题我追踪过的题目就是关于狼狮透过课台外包节目接触学生那今年三月我跟郭玉琴委员我们就开记者会揭露吸取学生的一个重大性暴力事件的狼狮透过课台节目学校都解聘了还继续接触学生"},{"start":357.057,"end":375.485,"text":"柯台當時居然在記者會上說劉導演沒有直接把重要的工作委請給理師也沒有帶大隊的人到理師家後來謝謝公視有去做調查證明團隊導演助理柯台口徑一致"},{"start":376.305,"end":403.468,"text":"不知道是說謊還是被蒙蔽那現在的調查報告已經出來就是就是完全當時課台只採取立員的說法不僅不採認學生的說法沒有問過學生甚至連我們兩位立委都覺得我們好像是聽了片面之詞那我想問的是為什麼課台可以完全沒有調查就下定論"},{"start":405.034,"end":407.084,"text":"那個次長不知道有沒有關心這個案子"},{"start":408.157,"end":435.55,"text":"为什么课台可以这么做当然课台他实在是太大意了太大意了所以针对这个事项其实我想应该是上礼拜课台有重新发了一个声明去谴责这件事情课台谴责别人那他们也自己做了处分课台没有责任吗他们也做了处分包括他们的戏曲组长还有节目部的经理都有遭到申诫或者是口头警告这样的一个处分所以就是课台都是谴责别人"},{"start":437.311,"end":461.788,"text":"就是相關的人也有自己有處分那次長你覺得課台這樣子的一個究責方式你滿意嗎這個事情我很難還是尊重由公視他們來處理那可是我想文化部能夠努力的就是在去提醒我們所有的相關單位在性品這件事情上在對於有這樣"},{"start":463.843,"end":472.645,"text":"很明確的一個犯罪的前提之下如何防範不要讓這一些性犯罪者再去接觸我們的尤其是學生我覺得整個課台喔性平意識不足所以等到我們開記者會的時候他在我們邀請他還以為會有個正面的結果當場還可以講出那樣子的話我們非常的驚嚇所以我希望次長再監督課台的究責夠不夠好嗎不能都說是別人的錯"},{"start":493.01,"end":508.366,"text":"自己不夠警覺 從台長到相關的人我覺得都是問題 好不好這次次長可以答應喔對 我們再跟客台 跟公視這邊來討論他們的這個究責的部分 是不是足夠那我想我最後 簡單把就是這兩個"},{"start":509.507,"end":536.977,"text":"這裡面我們看到一個問題就是從頭到尾大家都在包庇這個重大一對多的性別暴力的狼屍案而且都被調查都已經被解聘的教授了我覺得文化部我們還是應該要對他要求更高應該更高規格重視性暴力防治杜絕我們藝文界的性暴力不能夠讓青年學子當場到狼屍家才驚覺的自己沒有被保護"},{"start":537.717,"end":563.807,"text":"所以我提了兩個建議第一個這次發現切結書就是這個劇團只要跟他說我是在沒有領你們補助的活動邀郎師就OK所以是不是能以切結書杜絕重大性暴力加害者那增訂違約要求強的機制這是我的第一個建議第二個建議那所有的拿文化不自由的團體他有沒有做好性暴力防治應該成為審理跟評估的指標"},{"start":567.448,"end":584.625,"text":"譬如說如果有個人或團隊平凡跟重大確定的性暴力加害人合作不是應該扣分嗎不是說他那個單項活動沒有領你們的補助就OK那這部分文化部是不是次長認同我這兩項建議的策略嗎"},{"start":586.767,"end":604.299,"text":"當然跟表示認同我們還是要積極的努力在合法在法令允許的範圍內怎麼樣去加注然後要求提醒法律有法律的給受害人的正義今天是你的資源補助不是非給不可所以這完全在你們的行政權範圍就是文字上面"},{"start":604.639,"end":627.217,"text":"看怎麼樣文字上面的弱勢我們需要合法我們這個是亡羊補牢啦不知道大家追了這麼久的案子還可以在文化部下面就是課台有這種大漏洞那文化部多久可以把這兩項建議策略如何納入你們的既有的規範可以給本席報告兩個月齁那一起加油齁好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝單雲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時54分）謝謝召委，有請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長早。首先要謝謝召委，排了一個非常有意義、關於世界文化遺產潛力點的會議。重新來看這部分，我覺得比較遺憾的是，從我剛剛聽到文化部似乎不夠重視，自己在2002年就已經選出的18個臺灣世界遺產潛力點，一方面除了預算太少，剛剛有委員說能不能增加，結果只有5,000萬，5,000萬給現在18個潛力點，平均起來一個只有二百餘萬，連要做一個相關歷史研究可能都不夠了，更何況要更積極做點什麼，而且就態度上，剛剛次長一直說地方政府可以來申請，地方政府如果什麼都不做的話，我們看你們今天給的報告，除了邀請一些國際專家來協助我們如何跟UNESCO爭取世界遺產之外，就沒有具體可以做的事情。","我看到這上面的樂生療養院，剛剛召委也有講到，其實這整個的推動過程，我們看到的是青年學生的努力，沒有看到文化部曾經出來為它捍衛，跟交通之間的衝突怎麼解決，所以我真的覺得我們現在做很多新興的文化鼓勵，可是已經有的文化潛力點卻相當消極，這是我覺得最遺憾的部分。我希望藉著召委重視這個部分，我以淡水紅毛城及其周遭歷史建築為例，它是你們今天名列第2的，因為它涉及剛剛張雅琳委員講到，我們這個講出來會讓大家看到臺灣跟中國不一樣，臺灣不是中國的一部分。如果自然景觀很難的話，其實人文社會是最有意義的，不管是原住民、金馬戰地或者像淡水這個，它就展現了我們的殖民歷史，西方文化進入臺灣非常早，又具有戰略位置，裡面的城堡包含人文藝術、自然景觀，我們的世界級畫家陳澄波多次以淡水名畫就是紅毛城及其旁邊的歷史建築。","2020年我質詢文化部鄭麗君前部長的時候，就已經提到他當時面臨著文化保存跟輕軌開發的衝突。2021年，淡水的歷史文史專家請我一起出來呼籲，反對輕軌進入破壞整個水岸跟歷史建築、老街等。很遺憾的，新北市政府還是執意要開發，輕軌目前在規劃中，非常多淡水的文史工作者擔心周遭的生態從水岸到交通被破壞了。我以這個為例顯現遺產潛力點，我們過於消極，周遭的環境很可能因為地方政府不夠重視而面臨破壞的危機，文化部如何應對輕軌對淡水紅毛城開發案周圍生態環境的影響？這是個案，整體就通案上，我們有18個已經選出來的景點，在新增加之前，如果地方政府過於消極的話，文化部目前似乎就放任這些潛力點，繼續沒有做好該有的維護。我以臺灣的性別平權為例，我們永遠在聯合國裡面進不去，可是我們自己就以聯合國的標準自我努力的話，別人會幫我們宣傳。如果我們現在結合UNESCO等級，最有可能的就是觀光跟歷史文化的價值，我們都做不好的話，別人也不會看到它的價值。因為時間的緣故，我還有一題要請教，文化部是不是可以在2個月內給我一個從個案到通案如何改善的書面報告，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好，這部分我們會交報告。可是跟委員報告，在紅毛城這個案例上來講，我們在去年7月份的時候，有正式函復交通部跟國發會，我們要求這個輕軌運輸計畫，它的規劃、設計、相關書圖，還有文化資產的監測計畫，都必須要送文化部來審查，所以我們還有這個機制可以對於這個運輸案表達相關意見。"],["范委員雲：問題是它這整個的，從當時交通部核准的時候，文化部就好像是不相干的第三者，到現在一定要開發了，你再做這個部分當然是亡羊補牢，但是我還是覺得太消極了，好不好？一個函釋真的還是太消極了，如果能夠積極邀請地方文史工作者的話，我覺得才會有更積極的效果，這相關的報告是不是也可以給我辦公室一個，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好，可以。"],["范委員雲：再來，這一題也是我追蹤過的題目，就是關於狼師透過客台外包節目接觸學生。今年3月我跟郭昱晴委員就開記者會，揭露戲曲學生的一個重大性暴力事件，學校都解聘了，狼師還透過客台節目繼續接觸學生。客台當時居然在記者會上說，劉導演沒有直接把重要的工作委請給李師，也沒有帶大隊的人到李師家，後來謝謝公視有去調查，證明團隊、導演、助理、客台口徑一致，不知道是說謊還是被蒙蔽。現在調查報告已經出來，就是當時客台只採認梨園的說法，不僅不採認學生的說法，沒有問過學生，甚至連我們兩位立委都覺得我們好像是聽了片面之詞。我想問的是，為什麼客台可以完全沒有調查就下定論？次長，不知道有沒有關心這個案子？為什麼客台可以這麼做？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員做說明，當然客台實在是太大意了！沒有……"],["范委員雲：太大意了！"],["李次長靜慧：針對這個事項，我想應該是上禮拜，客台有重新發了一個聲明譴責這件事情……"],["范委員雲：客台譴責別人？"],["李次長靜慧：他們自己也做了處分……"],["范委員雲：客台沒有責任嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員說明，他們也做了處分，包括他們的戲曲組長還有節目部的經理，都有遭到申誡或者是口頭警告這樣的處分。我們會記取教訓……"],["范委員雲：所以客台都是譴責別人？都是相關的人。"],["李次長靜慧：有啦！他們自己也有處分。"],["范委員雲：次長，你覺得客台這樣子的究責方式，你滿意嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：這個事情我很難……還是尊重，由公視處理，可是我想文化部能夠努力的是，再去提醒我們所有的相關單位在性平這件事情上，對於有很明確的犯罪前提之下，要如何防範，不要讓這些性犯罪者再去接觸我們的……尤其是學生。"],["范委員雲：我真的覺得整個客台的性平意識不足，等到我們開記者會的時候，我們邀請他，還以為會有個正面的結果，結果他當場還可以講出那樣子的話，我們非常的驚嚇。所以我希望次長再監督客台的究責夠不夠，好嗎？不能都說是別人的錯，自己不夠警覺，從台長到相關的人，我覺得都是問題，好不好？次長可以答應嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對，我們再跟公視討論客台的究責部分是不是足夠。"],["范委員雲：好。最後，這裡面我們看到的一個問題，就是從頭到尾，大家都在包庇這個重大、一對多性別暴力的狼師案，而且是被調查，都已經被解聘的教授。我覺得文化部對他的要求應該要更高、應該更高規格重視性暴力防治，我們藝文界的性暴力不能夠讓青年學子到狼師家，才當場驚覺自己沒有被保護。所以我提了兩個建議，第一個，這次發現劇團只要跟他說，他是在沒有領你們補助的活動下邀狼師就OK，所以是不是能以切結書來杜絕重大性暴力加害者，增訂違約要求償的機制？這是我的第一個建議；第二個建議，所有拿文化部資源的團體，有沒有做好性暴力防治，應該成為審理跟評估的指標。譬如說，如果有個人或團隊頻繁的跟重大、確定的性暴力加害人合作，不是應該扣分嗎？不是他那個單項活動沒有領你們的補助就OK，這部分文化部是不是……次長認同我這兩項建議的策略嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：當然表示認同，我們還是要積極的努力，在法令允許的範圍內，怎麼樣去加註然後要求、提醒我們的評審……"],["范委員雲：由法律給受害人正義，今天你的資源補助不是非給不可，所以這完全在你們的行政權範圍，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：就是文字上面看要怎麼樣，我剛剛講文字上面的落字，我們需要合法，可是在執行上面我們會努力……"],["范委員雲：我們這個是亡羊補牢啦！大家追了這麼久的案子，在文化部下面，客台還可以有這種大漏洞。文化部多久可以給本席，把這兩項建議策略如何納入你們既有規範的報告？"],["李次長靜慧：兩個月。"],["范委員雲：好，那一起加油，謝謝！"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，次長請回。","我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來請有點好久不見、大家很想念的林沛祥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564a193dcabff4a2e8e9f0f8eeb1de8c89ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc8ef0204c35ffc9fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:39:28 - 10:51:09","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:39:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:51:09+08:00","duration":701,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.72596875000001,"end":65.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.84784375000001,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.02471875,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.60659375,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.88909375,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.57596875,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.52784375,"end":88.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":93.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":103.62659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.30596875,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.62659375000001,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.67659375000002,"end":195.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.08471875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.57409375,"end":198.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.49784375000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.32471875000002,"end":201.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.14284375000003,"end":209.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.62284375000002,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.62659375,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.86971875,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.21971875000003,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.05909375000002,"end":225.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.48909375000002,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.67034375,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.61096875000004,"end":346.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.60534375000003,"end":396.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.21784375000004,"end":405.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.38534375,"end":443.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.53534375000004,"end":445.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.86846875000003,"end":455.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.09159375,"end":449.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.74471875,"end":499.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.27346875,"end":529.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.9184687500001,"end":532.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.52971875,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.0265937500001,"end":590.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.46846875,"end":548.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.4853437500001,"end":548.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.9072187500001,"end":548.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.2522187500001,"end":555.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.20471875,"end":593.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.59659375,"end":594.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.96346875,"end":596.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.6172187500001,"end":596.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.4778437500001,"end":627.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.9622187500001,"end":602.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.6753437500001,"end":690.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.7478437500001,"end":678.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.9740937500001,"end":700.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.7878437500001,"end":691.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.84659375,"end":694.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.6772187500001,"end":697.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":699.19596875,"end":700.44471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.765,"end":37.578,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好 剛剛司堯跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法 安慰辦法它跟職安法"},{"start":37.978,"end":59.454,"text":"各自做了保護,如同思瑤剛剛說的,我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分,公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題,是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修"},{"start":61.749,"end":66.251,"text":"謝謝委員 這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部"},{"start":92.177,"end":94.999,"text":"討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的"},{"start":99.181,"end":122.185,"text":"去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明 謝謝沒問題 好 那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造句喔所以我們後續往這裡努力好 我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況不管是已經成案的 撤案的 或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中"},{"start":122.665,"end":142.528,"text":"其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程"},{"start":143.53,"end":157.189,"text":"讓所有有關市社的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒"},{"start":158.671,"end":185.893,"text":"處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程"},{"start":188.735,"end":189.155,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":219.079,"end":247.875,"text":"整密然後呢外部監督的這個比重高一點還有那個公開透明好那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外"},{"start":249.016,"end":273.426,"text":"那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後有一些學校的案件可能就固定"},{"start":274.547,"end":289.697,"text":"習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴"},{"start":290.758,"end":310.098,"text":"就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子"},{"start":310.618,"end":321.031,"text":"那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊"},{"start":327.319,"end":345.469,"text":"那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防弊非常非常的重要好不好"},{"start":347.662,"end":365.648,"text":"好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署"},{"start":367.248,"end":395.927,"text":"還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位"},{"start":397.348,"end":423.511,"text":"那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性"},{"start":424.011,"end":443.164,"text":"然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個詞缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎?"},{"start":445.942,"end":474.09,"text":"是的 如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個公務人員他沒錯 他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷"},{"start":474.83,"end":496.94,"text":"那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法"},{"start":499.401,"end":520.612,"text":"這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動"},{"start":522.193,"end":532.739,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":534.631,"end":539.636,"text":"所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面"},{"start":556.351,"end":572.157,"text":"那我們會提醒運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去瞭解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有"},{"start":573.278,"end":582.164,"text":"這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了好"},{"start":602.418,"end":627.187,"text":"那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去"},{"start":629.086,"end":648.553,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、偏遠地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的"},{"start":649.753,"end":677.441,"text":"的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在中國中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對"},{"start":678.181,"end":699.299,"text":"所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時39分）謝謝主席。我就先跟保訓會對話，剛剛思瑤幹事長有先提了關於我們的修正動議，其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分。因為剛剛你已經說明，我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力。不過我覺得今天非常重要的事情是，我們看到相關的公務人員保障法、安衛辦法跟職安法各自做了保護，如同思瑤剛剛說的，我們先抓漏，很希望今天後續的審查可以非常順利往這裡一起努力。關於學校的部分，公立學校尤其是這樣，接下來是醫療機構的部分，如果這個修正動議沒有問題，是不是今天我們就往這樣的方向修？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。這個沒有問題，這樣更清楚、明確，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK，這個也跟教育部或者衛福部討論過嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這個有跟勞動部討論過。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：當時第一百零二條請相關單位來，衛福部跟教育部沒有特別提出來，但是在兩天前我們有特別跟教育部討論這件事情，他們也希望在第一百零二條這個地方能夠很清楚地顯示出來，他們是適用職安法的。以上說明，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒問題。既然各個部會都討論過，我想那就不會只是我們閉門造車，所以我們後續往這裡努力。稍早也有委員提到關於人事總處統計霸凌案通報平臺的執行狀況，不管是已經成案的、撤案的或者是已經結案的，又或者是後續調查之中，其實我在上一次的質詢當中，也跟你們討論到關於所謂外聘人員這件事情的重要性，我猜想你們應該已經做了相關研究。剛剛思瑤也有提到，這個是教育部霸凌防制準則所做的經驗，他們甚至做了通報平臺的流程，讓所有有關、事涉的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去通報。我知道你們在外部人才資料庫這邊會跟教育部或衛福部合作，但是我要順便一併提醒，處理流程的建置也很重要，因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的，我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組，相關委員也會有外聘，同時會確保他們的專業知能，真的可以協助處理公務人員職場霸凌，但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下，目前有沒有開始往這個方向規劃，也就是專屬於公務人員申報平臺的流程？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這是我們目前還在進行規劃中的一個部分，但是當然還沒有規劃到這麼仔細……"],["陳委員培瑜：這麼仔細，是。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，我們會遵照委員所提供的教育部調查流程，這個看起來非常、非常縝密，然後再去把它……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為場域可能不同、對象不同，但是我們會讓整個申報，還有包含整個調查，盡可能周延、縝密，讓外部監督的比重高一點，還有公開透明。謝謝委員提供這一張，我們回去會把它拿來看一看。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以再跟教育部討論，但是我剛剛已經提醒大家，因為職場的樣態不一樣、生態也不一樣，所以這個流程絕對不會長得一樣，而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣，所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰，除了建置外部委員資料庫之外。另外也想跟保訓會分享，我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境，目前教育單位已經在處理了，我們跟國教署討論過，是什麼樣態呢？就是當外部委員專業化並且資料庫化之後，有一些學校的案件可能就固定習慣找某些外部委員配合，結果就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈，也就是說，開始有現場被指稱為加害者，或者是受害者，他們會開始提出另外一個控訴，就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案，或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案，甚至還有人開始打廣告，標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子。因為在調查過程當中、撰寫報告過程當中，或者是其他過程當中，都會產生費用，確實現場開始出現這樣的廣告，就開始有人擔心會不會有這個調查產業鏈，我們要怎麼防弊？關於教育部那邊的狀況，我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部，教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查，我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向，這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會，我想作為未來的防弊也非常非常地重要，好不好？","接下來我要請銓敘部，辛苦了！我想跟您討論一下，目前9月份運動部成立在即，我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少，目前在運動部的業務當中，跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署，還有適應運動司，甚至它跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡，本席想要跟銓敘部這邊討論，我就是先做一個友善的提醒，目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員，我們看到目前網站上已經開了80個職缺，80個，非常非常多，未來他們要逐年增加到400位；目前的體育署只有100位，再考80位，然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位。我們非常擔心一件事情，我剛剛講了這麼多，因為它會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中，我們知道現在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因，可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情，或是他有不適任的各種可能性，於是他就被迫離開公務機關，甚至還有犯了相關兒少法，可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔！他可能只是暫時停聘幾年，或者是暫時多久多久，他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這個職缺，對嗎？銓敘部，我的擔心是對的嗎？"],["懷次長敍：是的，如果他本來就有公務人員任用資格，因為某些原因離開，事實上他是還有權利來應徵工作。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，他有權利，我們當然要保障他的工作權。如果我們希望進到運動部，為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員，他們在相關的認知上，必須對兒少建立正確的認知，導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷，我們有沒有機會參考教師法，因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理，其實是有相關比較積極的條件設計，例如犯了學校性平的問題，或者是受到兒少性剝削防制條例犯罪的可能性，還有曾經有體罰、霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法，它被放在教師法裡面積極的設定，這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域，跟兒童、跟青少年一起工作，我先說我不確定，銓敘部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定？我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論，但是因為時間有限，我想這個提醒是針對運動部未來兒少業務的友善提醒，但實質上，如何落實這件事情，也需要您的專業意見，好不好？"],["懷次長敍：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們可以做相關的研議嗎？"],["懷次長敍：對不起！我以為就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：提醒啦！你們有機會做相關的研議嗎？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告一下，公務員都有他的履歷資料表，過去他的行為因為某些原因，譬如說被懲戒、懲處，事跡都會寫在上面，我們會提醒運動部的人事單位，未來在進用這些人的時候，仔細審閱他的履歷表，尤其是剛剛委員提到，他如果是離職再任的，要去了解他當年離職再任的原因是什麼，因為這個事實上都有人事資料的歷程軌跡。謝謝委員的提醒，因為他們目前都還在進行中，我們會特別跟運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管同仁，特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細篩選。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，因為這個未來其實沒有太未來，他們目前已經開缺80個。"],["懷次長敍：是、是，我理解。是，了解。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就拜託銓敘部。"],["懷次長敍：我們會提醒他們處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極討論，當然，我們也已經提醒運動部了。"],["懷次長敍：是、是。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則，你們已經做了預告，這個版本其實跟2月的版本有一些差異，有些基層同仁的反映，我想你們應該是清楚跟知道的，對於預告細則出來，他們可能有一些疑慮，他們認為很多聲音沒有被採納，但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒，希望後續你們再搭配修法的時候，可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去。"],["懷次長敍：好，謝謝委員的提醒。因為事實上，我們目前在修正的方向跟原來最早的方向是一致的，因為我們在草案出來的時候，很多的機關，特別我們必須要考量的，例如花東地區、偏遠地區，他們也都有強烈建議。事實上我們目前的版本跟原來設計方式是一樣，即三個月加三個月，原來本身就是這樣，只是最後如果因為有偏遠地區等等這些，最多也就是三個月，還是跟原來的總時數是一樣。這部分我們也理解，希望中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同仁需求之間，我們要有一個平衡。因為這是法令公告，還在公告中嘛……"],["陳委員培瑜：對！沒錯、沒錯。"],["懷次長敍：所以我們也是在收集各方意見，最後我們會儘量朝大家認為都可以的方向進行處理，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善提醒。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝您。"],["陳委員培瑜：不過聽到您很正向的回應，就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音，而且考慮到臺灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態差異。"],["懷次長敍：有，是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，以上，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來有請羅智強委員。","我在這邊先做一個會議程序的宣告：在羅智強委員詢答完畢之後，先休息5分鐘，之後再請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564b68b34edef180ac133769fbc08eef2e9e7f061fc5ac7c7dc7cf64100f1aa8a575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:42:52 - 10:54:45","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:42:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:54:45+08:00","duration":713,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.19971875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.97596875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.79784375,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.39534375000001,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.85784375,"end":189.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.46534375000002,"end":190.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.63409375,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.36284375000002,"end":198.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.05846875,"end":202.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.88534375,"end":203.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.41596875000002,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.23409375,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.32596875000002,"end":230.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.88096875000002,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.76659375000003,"end":233.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.13784375,"end":234.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.13659375,"end":242.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.59971875000002,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.75909375,"end":255.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.88096875,"end":258.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.20534375,"end":273.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.57909375,"end":272.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.09784375000004,"end":284.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.61096875000004,"end":298.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.63596875,"end":286.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.82409375000003,"end":298.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.56659375000004,"end":299.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.93346875000003,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.48159375,"end":304.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.40096875,"end":335.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.58596875,"end":309.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.68534375,"end":322.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.79284375000003,"end":342.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.21784375000004,"end":357.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.53784375000004,"end":348.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.56284375,"end":350.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.69659375000003,"end":357.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.69221875,"end":442.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.80971875,"end":444.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.38346875,"end":444.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.54784375,"end":445.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.96971875,"end":447.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.77096875,"end":471.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.82721875000004,"end":467.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.97409375,"end":473.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.08346875,"end":539.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.14659375,"end":475.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.42471875,"end":477.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.36409375000005,"end":487.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9653437500001,"end":528.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.70346875,"end":530.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.9297187500001,"end":548.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.85346875,"end":542.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.26159375,"end":588.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.4553437500001,"end":551.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.4422187499999,"end":554.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.6765937499999,"end":567.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.5109687500001,"end":573.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.6103437500001,"end":586.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.95159375,"end":691.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.9353437500001,"end":692.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.9522187500002,"end":706.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.1184687500001,"end":709.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.15221875,"end":709.89471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":5.113,"text":"我們有請林怡瑾好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":14.399,"end":34.959,"text":"我想本席今天會排這個專報那主要核心目標有三個第一個就是想要請文化部說明登錄世界遺產的相關策略跟啟程第二個也想請文化部說明的是要保存及升登世界遺產明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立"},{"start":35.8,"end":58.323,"text":"那第三也是要請文化部說明無論是透過修正文化資產保存法又或者啟動其他的立法機制就是說針對世界遺產顯利點本身文化部願意提供怎麼樣的國家層級的保護這是我今天的三大排這個案子的重點"},{"start":59.384,"end":84.479,"text":"好 那台灣不是聯合國的會員國那可是為了因應這項的問題我們多年來世界社會各界就一直在倡議說是不是透過日本等這種友好國家來進行跨國聯合生育的這種策略那就連文字局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國家根本組織這個ICOMOS"},{"start":86.7,"end":105.918,"text":"前副主席西村信夫他的說法他表示說台灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請再將台灣納入跨國申請的地址之一會是一種解套的方式"},{"start":106.639,"end":123.795,"text":"那西村幸福局的案例就是樂生療養院那他說患生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗那審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理我們看日本特別是馬來西亞"},{"start":125.738,"end":153.47,"text":"馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織的世界遺產暫時名單過希望之谷可是文化部今天的報告卻有直接否定跨國聯合生育的可能性那這是不是也是在跟國人表示說刊登在文資局的網站上西村幸夫的論述是錯的"},{"start":155.471,"end":170.957,"text":"實際上台灣國際處境的艱難我們都很清楚那也正因為如此才更突顯這個跨國聯合生意的這個重要性那我想在此時此刻這個世界高度認同台灣那所以我們"},{"start":172.177,"end":189.452,"text":"並且啦 大家都同聲譴責中國惡行的這個時候我覺得我們更應該把握的這個關鍵時刻對外發生所以真的要請次長來說明一下就是說我們日後升登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何"},{"start":191.154,"end":211.352,"text":"首先跟委員報告其實我第一次聽到西村幸福老師講了這個話的時候我真的也非常興奮所以你看我們的森林鐵路可以跟日本怎麼樣聯合去做申請我們的火車頭這個是我們可異動物產它是美國生產目前是全世界只剩下那一台了想了半天就很興奮可是"},{"start":212.293,"end":238.878,"text":"同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現它即使是聯合申請每一個申請國它依然要具有會員國或者是公約的締約組織之一才有辦法作為聯合申請那不然的話就是即使是聯合申請裡面我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭沒有辦法有獨立的說我這個位置是一個我們自己的主權申請"},{"start":240.058,"end":255.158,"text":"這個是同仁去了解的細節對西村老師的提醒因為他有提的案例我們也去查了有沒有別的不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請的方式得到的目前查到為止就是不可取得"},{"start":256.34,"end":271.476,"text":"有一個是庫克群島可是庫克群島它本身是紐西蘭怎麼講它跟紐西蘭之間的關係紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一所以它有那個締約國它是那個公約的締約國之一"},{"start":274.779,"end":301.449,"text":"虽然它不是联合国的会员国可是它是世界遗产公约的缔约国所以它依然可以它就可以跟别的国家联合去申请世界遗产的所以这个部分其实同仁是有努力的在观察国际上面的用什么样的形式来申请或者是有没有什么机会有没有任何的变化我们持续的关注所以目前为止查到的是说"},{"start":302.9,"end":321.301,"text":"反正三種身份中你要有一個那只是現在比較麻煩的是我們三種身份都拿不到那就會除非我們要放棄掉我們台灣的一個國家的一個標示然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主題裡面我想這也不是國人所樂見"},{"start":322.182,"end":342.164,"text":"所以才會講說在整個策略上來講我們還是持續的讓我們的雖然我們沒有報名資格可是讓國際人知道他們來親眼看到台灣的每一項這些世界遺產這些文化資產都非常具有它的保存或者是它的"},{"start":343.291,"end":357.251,"text":"文化價值都有具有世界遺產這樣的一個能量我們一直在說模擬考我們考得很好我考試我真的能過那只是讓委員們知道這些考生委員知道是我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已"},{"start":358.735,"end":366.461,"text":"因為其實像在醫療發展上就好台灣Can't help已經是一個響徹這個國際的口號那也是全球公認的事實喔所以我們如果用WHO這個就是說WHA跟WHO我們用這個例子來看我們就很清楚是要即便中國一直在阻撓"},{"start":383.795,"end":408.827,"text":"我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象我想不管是今年的G7或者目前來講有50多個國家不管是行政立法部門 歐盟 歐洲議會或者跟台灣理念相近的一些"},{"start":410.328,"end":425.688,"text":"這個駐台的機構其實都一直很具體的行動在表達對台灣的國際支持或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持所以我想如果在醫療發展上看到是衛福部跟外交部的攜手的決心"},{"start":426.369,"end":442.72,"text":"所以我想說在文化發展上那台灣的態度當然我想也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部的攜手所以說這部分是不是說在升登世界遺產這件事情上怎麼有效的跨部會的再去努力市長好 謝謝委員其實"},{"start":448.874,"end":472.82,"text":"如何跟外交部第一個我們要踏出國際的話跟外交部的合作真的非常非常的重要所以我們曾經也提議過就像WHA我們雖然不能夠進去開會可是就是會有很多的醫師團體或者是醫療團體到門口去拿牌子那部門委員說我也曾經跟外交部講說我們去那個"},{"start":474.244,"end":495.69,"text":"Ecomos開會或是ICOM開會門口我們也去掛牌子那這個部分外交部有他的考量因為目前我們在國際組織上要努力的去加入他們有六個一定要維持住的好像航空、警察、警政這一部分那文化這個能不能擠進去也納入外交部一個積極申請國際單位的這樣一個單位內"},{"start":499.731,"end":527.656,"text":"這個部分外交部還有他的考量我們沒有放棄我們繼續在支持所以包括說剛剛我們在報告裡面特別提到外交部的政務次長他是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的來參加我們的這個推動會那其實部長也李委員部長也保持非常大的一個信心跟期待我們會持續跟外交部來溝通如何發聲讓人家知道我們準備好了我們可以然後剛剛委員我這邊站一分鐘"},{"start":528.396,"end":548.334,"text":"我上次去捷克的時候是是捷克的他跟我們講因為捷克有一個世界遺產的那個橋樑然後他就講說當時這個橋樑修復的時候是台灣台灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋樑那他就說捷克非常感謝台灣這件事情所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛"},{"start":549.855,"end":571.769,"text":"台灣Can Help這件事情口罩的我們那時候協助大家來提供口罩所以我們在文資修復上面我們的確有那樣的能力我們有那樣的觀念所以或許我們暫時之間雖然我們自己申請勢宜拿不到可是別的國家的勢宜如果有需要修復或保存上技術上的交流或者是提供或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做"},{"start":573.57,"end":588.044,"text":"那只是這個部分當然我想說我要回來跟我們文資局講說我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資如果國外有這些文資的需求的時候我們也可以提供這樣透過這樣國際的鏈接讓大家更努力的看到台灣"},{"start":589.765,"end":607.712,"text":"最後再三十秒跟次長討論的是我們現在除了這個所謂台灣世界遺產潛力點離選跟除名的作業要點以外我想進一步透過說文資法的修正又或者是專法的訂定來進一步賦予我國這個世界遺產潛力點更高的國家層級的保護"},{"start":613.334,"end":630.128,"text":"本席現在手邊是有草擬一份文資法的修正案那新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章那近期就會來連署並送進委員會那本席的修正及新增條文有14條我想這是 除了更進一步"},{"start":630.728,"end":653.663,"text":"要接軌國際文化遺產保護體系那也直接賦予我國現在這個世界遺產潛力點文資法所定的這個最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身份那並且我也要求說未來新增這些潛力點也必須符合這些身份那之所以要做出這樣的規範第一個我想說當然要保護我們台灣的這些世界遺產的潛力點"},{"start":654.704,"end":678.266,"text":"第二個就是要透過要反映現行體系的矛盾以及這個潛力點保護工作的欠缺因為我們是想如果連台灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級的文資或者這個自然地景的身份那我們如何去說服國際讓我們升登世界遺產"},{"start":679.367,"end":706.782,"text":"那又如何要在這個法律的這個明確規範下來好好保護我們的世界遺產請你一點所以我的意思是說這樣的一個規範是必然必須要處理的那次長您怎麼看謝謝委員因為我們正在也在討論文資法的修正是那委員的這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式也請委員可以提供給我們我們來一併演繹好嗎好啊OK好謝謝喔謝謝次長謝謝主席"},{"start":709.185,"end":709.205,"text":"謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時43分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：召委早。"],["林委員宜瑾：次長好。本席今天會排這個專報，主要的核心目標有三個：第一個就是想請文化部說明，登錄世界遺產的相關策略和期程；第二個也想請文化部說明的是，保存及申登世界遺產，明確且有效的跨部會合作模式要如何建立；第三也是要請文化部說明，無論是透過修正文化資產保存法，又或者是啟動其他的立法機制，針對世界遺產潛力點本身，文化部願意提供怎麼樣國家層級的保護？這是我今天排這個案子的三大重點。","臺灣不是聯合國的會員國，可是為了因應這項問題，多年來社會各界就一直在倡議，是不是能透過日本等友好國家進行跨國聯合申遺這種策略？就連文資局的網站上也有明確引用聯合國教科文組織ICOMOS前副主席西村幸夫的說法，他表示臺灣雖然不是聯合國的會員國，但是由國際組織發動世界遺產的申請，再將臺灣納入跨國申請的地址之一，會是一種解套的方式。","西村幸夫舉的案例就是樂生療養院，他說漢生病受到歧視跟隔離的歷史是一個普世的經驗，審查委員不會因為國家的定位而拒絕受理。我們看日本，特別是馬來西亞，馬來西亞在2019年曾經登錄教科文組織世界遺產的暫時名單過，就是這個希望之谷。可是文化部今天的報告卻直接否定跨國聯合申遺的可能性，這是不是也是在跟國人表示，刊登在文資局網站上的西村幸夫的這個論述是錯的？實際上，我們都很清楚臺灣國際處境的艱難，也正因為如此，才更凸顯跨國聯合申遺的重要性。我想此時此刻世界高度認同臺灣，並且大家都同聲譴責中國的惡行，我覺得我們在這個時候，更應該把握這個關鍵時刻對外發聲，所以真的要請次長來說明一下，我們日後申登世界遺產相關的策略跟期程到底是如何？"],["李次長靜慧：首先跟委員報告，其實我第一次聽到西村幸夫老師講這個話的時候，我真的也非常興奮，我想我們的森林鐵路可以看要怎麼樣跟日本聯合申請，還有我們的火車頭，這個是我們可移動的遺產，它是美國生產，目前在全世界只剩下那一臺了。我很興奮的想了半天，可是同仁去仔細查了相關規定之後發現，即使是聯合申請，每一個申請國依然必須是會員國或那個公約的締約組織之一，才有辦法聯合申請，不然的話，即使是聯合申請，我們就會被併在某一個國家裡頭，沒有辦法獨立以我們自己的主權申請，這個是同仁去了解的細節。對於西村老師的提醒，因為他有提到案例，我們也去查了，看有沒有不是聯合國會員國可是用聯合申請方式得到的情形，目前查到的唯一資料就是庫克群島。"],["林委員宜瑾：還是沒有辦法？"],["李次長靜慧：有一個是庫克群島，但庫克群島跟紐西蘭之間有一定的關係，紐西蘭同意它可以自己去成為締約國之一，所以它就是那個公約的締約國之一。雖然它不是聯合國的會員國，可是它是那個世界遺產公約的締約國，所以它就可以跟別的國家聯合去申請世界遺產。對這個部分其實同仁有努力觀察國際上是用什麼樣的形式申請，或者是有沒有什麼機會、有沒有任何的變化，我們都持續關注。到目前為止，我們查到的是反正在三種身分中一定要有一個，現在比較麻煩的就是我們這三種身分都拿不到，除非我們要放棄我們臺灣的國家標示，然後完全被併在另外一個國家的主體裡面，我想這也不是是國人所樂見的。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["李次長靜慧：所以在整個策略上來講，雖然我們沒有報名資格，可是要持續讓國際上的人知道，讓他們來親眼看臺灣每一項文化資產的保存或文化價值都非常具有世界遺產這樣的能量。我們一直跟他們說，我們模擬考都考得很好，我考試真的能過，就是讓這些考試委員們知道，我們就是缺一個考試的資格而已。"],["林委員宜瑾：像在醫療發展上，我們「Taiwan Can Help」已經是一個響徹國際的口號，也是全球公認的事實，我們如果用WHA這個例子來看，我們就很清楚的知道，即便中國一直在阻撓，我們其實也在2009年被納入WHA的邀請對象。像今年的G7或者是目前有五十多個國家，不管是行政、立法部門、歐盟、歐洲議會還有跟臺灣理念相近的一些駐臺機構，其實都一直以很具體的行動，表達對臺灣的國際支持，或者是參與世界衛生大會的強力支持。我們既然在醫療發展上看到衛福部跟外交部攜手的決心，我想在文化發展上，臺灣的態度當然也一定不能輸衛福部跟外交部攜手。次長，在申登世界遺產這件事情上，要怎麼有效的跨部會再去努力？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員，第一個，我們如果要踏出國際的話，跟外交部的合作真的非常、非常的重要。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["李次長靜慧：所以我們也曾經提議過，就像WHA，我們雖然不能夠進去開會，可是會有很多的醫師團體或醫療團體到門口去拿牌子。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["李次長靜慧：不瞞委員說，我也曾經跟外交部講過，在ICOMOS或者ICOM開會時，我們也可以去會場門口掛牌子，可是對這個部分外交部有它的考量，因為目前我們要努力地加入國際組織，他們有6個一定要維持住的，像航空、警政這些部分，文化能不能擠進去，也納入外交部積極申請國際單位這樣的範圍內，這個部分外交部還有它的考量，我們沒有放棄，我們繼續在支持。剛剛我們在報告裡面也特別提到外交部的政務次長，這是第一次外交部有這麼高層級的官員來參加我們的這個推動會。其實李遠部長也抱持非常大的信心跟期待，我們會持續跟外交部溝通要如何發聲，讓人家知道我們準備好了，我們可以了。","委員，我再用1分鐘向委員說明。在我上次去捷克的時候，他們跟我們講捷克有一個世界遺產的橋梁，他說在當時修復這個橋梁的時候，是臺灣這邊的匠師去協助他們做這樣的橋梁修復，他說捷克非常感謝臺灣這件事情，所以或許我們可以比照像剛剛講的「Taiwan Can Help」，像我們那時候協助大家提供口罩，我們在文資修復上面的確有那樣的能力、有那樣的觀念，所以雖然我們自己申請世遺拿不到，可是其他國家的世遺如果需要修復、保存技術上的交流或提供，或許我們也可以透過這個管道漸漸去做。關於這個部分，我當時想我回來要跟文資局講，我們或許以後不是只有修我們自己的文資，在國外文資有這些需求的時候，我們也可以提供，透過這樣跟國際的鏈結，更努力的讓大家看到臺灣。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後要再用30秒跟次長討論，我們現在除了臺灣世界遺產潛力點遴選及除名作業要點以外，我想可以透過文資法的修正或專法的訂定，進一步賦予我國世界遺產潛力點更高國家層級的保護。本席現在有草擬一份文資法的修正案，新增了世界遺產潛力點的專章，近期就會連署並送進委員會。本席的修正及新增條文有14條，除了要更進一步接軌國際文化遺產保護體系，也直接賦予我國現在世界遺產潛力點，文資法所訂最高等級文化資產及自然地景的身分，並且我也要求未來新增的這些潛力點必須符合這些身分。我之所以要做出這樣的規範，第一個，我想當然要保護我們臺灣的這些世界遺產潛力點；第二個就是要反映現行體系的矛盾以及潛力點保護工作的欠缺。我們試想，如果連臺灣自己都不能承認自己列出來的世界遺產潛力點具備這種最高等級文資或自然地景的身分，那我們如何去說服國際讓我們申登世界遺產？又如何在法律的明確規範下，好好保護我們的世界遺產潛力點？所以我的意思是這樣的規範是必須要處理的。次長，請問您怎麼看？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，我們也正在討論文資法的修正案，委員提出這個修正的方向或者是用立專章的方式，也請委員可以提供給我們，我們一併來研議，好嗎？"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162276","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162276","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5640ee2302cb5ce5bbe9f0f8eeb1de8c89ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc608b7010f5f8dc8a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:25:17 - 10:39:22","影片長度":"00:14:05","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:25:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:39:22+08:00","duration":845,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.98721875,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.910968750000002,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.509718750000001,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.52659375,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.67409375,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.765968750000003,"end":24.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.989093750000002,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.25909375,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.148468750000003,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.90284375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.89909375,"end":92.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.94471875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.98221875,"end":124.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.30971875,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.52784375,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.10159375,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.53596875000001,"end":116.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.56971875,"end":116.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.80596875,"end":116.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.81409375000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.88909375,"end":126.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.06596875000001,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.08659375000002,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.66346875000002,"end":201.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.40846875000003,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.19284375,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.24159375000002,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.50409375,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.65596875000003,"end":239.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.68971875000003,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.93909375000004,"end":268.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.88346875,"end":272.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.45659375,"end":305.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.60346875000005,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.32721875000004,"end":319.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.51659375,"end":321.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.17471875,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.08159375,"end":324.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.38909375000003,"end":327.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.14409375,"end":329.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.38409375000003,"end":341.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.44596875,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.27846875,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.03784375000004,"end":375.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.36471875,"end":379.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.95909375,"end":381.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.08534375000005,"end":384.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.03846875000005,"end":407.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.25409375000004,"end":413.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.21096875,"end":448.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.78784375000004,"end":448.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.82159375000003,"end":448.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.15471875000003,"end":450.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.17159375000006,"end":461.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.78159375,"end":474.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.92471875,"end":465.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.16346875000005,"end":481.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.22659375,"end":478.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.89284375000005,"end":481.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.18346875000003,"end":515.0559687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.41846875000005,"end":490.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.45221875000004,"end":490.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.94909375000003,"end":498.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.3897187499999,"end":513.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.07284375,"end":533.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.9328437500001,"end":521.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.4465937500001,"end":526.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.46346875,"end":527.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.62346875,"end":529.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.04096875,"end":530.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.9353437500001,"end":531.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.4584687500001,"end":532.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.4665937500001,"end":533.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.6015937500001,"end":533.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.7365937500001,"end":560.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.24284375,"end":561.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.25971875,"end":574.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.9453437500001,"end":576.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.68346875,"end":584.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.3159687500001,"end":580.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.6784687500001,"end":583.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.5347187500001,"end":585.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.39096875,"end":602.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.11221875,"end":587.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.71346875,"end":737.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.83971875,"end":603.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.3459687500001,"end":758.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.67596875,"end":763.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.9453437500001,"end":766.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.35409375,"end":770.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.74596875,"end":795.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":796.32846875,"end":806.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":806.5547187500001,"end":833.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.6515937500001,"end":842.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.9340937500001,"end":836.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.55846875,"end":837.25034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.011,"end":23.349,"text":"好 謝謝主席建信秘書長 你現在狀況真的要保重身體喔真的 平常忙於公務也要關心自己的健康真的很不捨 我們剛剛都嚇壞了"},{"start":25.391,"end":42.169,"text":"你應該也要沒有吃早餐的我也沒吃早餐會貧血我們要吃點早餐再上工那今天我們在討論職場反霸凌而且是公務體系的法制化事實上如果要問我們的公務體系而且有來立法院備詢的"},{"start":43.61,"end":62.96,"text":"其實立法委員我們也真的要自我檢視我們恐怕往往成為造成公務部門同仁身心靈壓力很大的一個厄緣我們希望問政大家都能夠專業理性然後一起來彼此尊重那今天回到我們的主題下一頁"},{"start":63.88,"end":73.908,"text":"我在整理資訊的時候我赫然發現考選部有一個統計從2014到2024這10年來公務人員報考的人數從354308位一直下降到2014年只剩下166000位來報考等於是10年報考公務人員的人數遭腰斬所以鐵飯碗不再熱門鐵飯碗不再是鐵飯碗了嗎"},{"start":93.021,"end":108.919,"text":"那考試員有沒有觀察到這樣子的狀況跟委員報告就是說的確有這樣的一個狀況那也跟委員說明就是大概公務員報考人數他如果長期來看的話大概在民國100年左右是一個高峰前面比較低後面也比較低"},{"start":109.66,"end":126.285,"text":"但是現在當然有各種因素包含少子化包含民間的就業機會增加因為經濟發展的狀況民間薪資的誘因等等選擇也更多了有更多的選擇所以的確有這樣的現象我們也有一直在注意跟觀察但我們還是需要下一頁"},{"start":127.285,"end":151.924,"text":"持續的招募人才而且要留住人才再加上打造一個友善的職場缺一不可這就是我們在面對我們無論如何我們看到台灣的人才多元願意往私部門服務也都是好事但是我們也希望能夠有更多有志於公眾事務的朋友們願意投入公務體系的工作那這幾年來我們留財攬財友善職場做了很多"},{"start":157.288,"end":176.711,"text":"加薪 減壓 打造職場的更friendly這個缺一不可那我特別要肯定賴清德總統提出來的6年50億的全民心理健康任性計畫要強化支持現在公務體系的EAP的支持方案我們要持續做 下一頁"},{"start":177.532,"end":201.22,"text":"而加薪我們這幾年來從蔡總統到賴總統四度為公務體系加薪加薪14%反觀馬英九前總統只加薪了一次3%那現在因為立法院在刪減總預算以至於我們的薪水加薪3%今年遭到延宕目前應當都陸續發放了吧應當是嗎 人事總署點頭 好"},{"start":206.209,"end":221.383,"text":"那加薪14%我們如果經濟發展好稅收增加我們持續的為公務同仁來增加薪水增加大家投入公務體系的誘因下一頁好剛剛講的加薪之外第二個就是減壓"},{"start":222.924,"end":236.593,"text":"那我也在利用這一次的機會我謝謝考試院謝謝全序部思堯一路倡議的公務體系的新理假從校園然後開始延伸到公務體系你們現在正在修正請假規則嗎"},{"start":239.637,"end":262.985,"text":"好我做出提醒我谢谢你们回应了我的倡议现在给予公务体系的身心调试假公务同仁是每年三日我支持但是在公务人员请假规则第三条的第三项我希望你们再回去听一下因为你们现在这个条文的写法是意思是说还是先去请试假啦"},{"start":264.025,"end":287.886,"text":"然後呢如果市價請滿了那身心價再來說啦好像還是這個方向我非常在乎的是身心調適價它不是只是一個價可以放幾天是我們國家藉由這個價別能夠去掌握公務體系的同仁們我們可以follow可以追蹤誰去請了身心調適價可能他的家庭他的情感"},{"start":291.008,"end":305.204,"text":"他的交友狀況或是工作壓力產生了我們需要協助的部分所以在請假規則第三條第三項的部分是不是可以請詮釋從詮釋部再思考斟酌一下好嗎"},{"start":305.805,"end":329.391,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們基本上請升薪假是不需要要先請其他假作為前提但是因為委員您剛剛這樣講就是說我想您的質詢我們去檢視一下那文字會不會產生這個問題謝謝您我們會去再看一下會不會產生誤解否則一般就會覺得它是一個最後最後然後請滿了之後再額外我想這個意義上就不對了好嗎我們對於升薪調適的支持"},{"start":332.532,"end":359.375,"text":"反映在你們的請假規則的修訂好我都尊重也感謝但希望能夠做到更好不要為德不足好下一頁那今天的主題就是霸凌防治的三支箭今天我希望保障法可以快速的大家有共識能夠送出委員會那之後還有考機法針對霸凌加害者這個記過的這些懲處是第二關考機法什麼時候可以送"},{"start":360.282,"end":374.781,"text":"我們已經送了已經送了好那希望我們下週中瑞雄招委可以儘速來排審那安慰辦法其實是整個公務體系的霸凌防治的執行面向都在安慰辦法目前的進度"},{"start":375.562,"end":383.288,"text":"行政院會選送回來考試院應該在昨天送回來所以目標7月1號應該沒有問題嗎目標我們目前暫定應該定於7月1號發布因為也公告一段時間我也希望立法院的委員們我們這麼投入霸凌防治在公務體系如果對於安慰辦法有任何具體的建議都可以在這段時間趕快提供給我們的考試部門能夠有正向的意見就採納"},{"start":402.082,"end":425.641,"text":"那基本上缺一不可 保障法 烤雞法 安慰辦法我們都希望在這個會期七月底之前 都能夠完備這是我們共同的目標 下一頁萬事起頭難 再難也要做五大面向的保障法 民進黨團 包括吳斯堯本人我都全力支持 我都全力支持 下一頁但是呢 有幾個問題垂詢一下"},{"start":427.623,"end":447.941,"text":"霸凌防護補破網人力的量能要補足啊以後保訓會你的責任重大一個是人才一個是人力我先講人力喔你們保訓會的員額有沒有因應新的霸凌防治保障法的修訂之後因為你們要大量的投入員額有沒有給你們"},{"start":450.182,"end":460.765,"text":"跟委員報告 不夠的人力跟委員報告 謝謝委員這麼關心這個很重要的這個量能問題那我們之前有去這個跟"},{"start":462.054,"end":490.008,"text":"人事總署有去跟人事總署蘇仁市長提這個問題我們也有給了一個很合理的暫時提出你們也不敢自己大開口嗎要多一點 因為現在是給你們幾個給我們幾個希望爭取幾位因為我們自己也盤點我們內部有一些同仁本來就是具勞動背景"},{"start":491.068,"end":514.474,"text":"所以呢再加上我們的處也會我們先行整併啦這是一般機關在申請原額的時候一定要做的所以呢經過盤點以後呢我們是去跟這個蘇仁市長說我們希望能夠有這個20位但是當然這個是我們很理想的狀態所以呢當然蘇仁市長他基於這個中央原額基準法還有要恪守這個立法院"},{"start":515.875,"end":533.056,"text":"對於員額的這個控管嘛這是立法院過去以前的決議所以他目前給了我們覺得現階段我們剛開始上路應該是可以啦先給十位 進員額十位先求有再求好 十位這是有關人力的部分"},{"start":533.797,"end":559.497,"text":"那我覺得以後如果上路之後可能大家也在這個制度的運行更有經驗可能人力的量能那一來可能是大家上手了人力可能不需要那麼多但也有可能因為相關的案例暴增顯現更需要人力我們都希望人事總署可以來支持那第二個是人才因為我們都要建置很多的專家委員會要增加霸凌防制的專業人才你的專家學者資料庫要協助各級政府各公務機關你們怎麼進行公文報告"},{"start":562.959,"end":575.886,"text":"就是目前我們已經有在鑽你那個人就是專家學者人才庫的設置要點那這個部分呢我們也會去這個跟"},{"start":576.792,"end":600.014,"text":"教育部 衛福部 還有勞動部因為他們本來也有一些專業的部份其實校園也很多對 就是校園霸凌的部份所以這是主要三大部會他們的人才庫已經有建置而且是建置得很完整那我們會去跟他們請益同時因為這當中很多的專家學者他的性質是一樣的"},{"start":600.815,"end":616.947,"text":"所以我們會藉由這個部分然後跨部會來協力所以人力是重要人才是重要的這才能夠讓真正的執行能夠穩健然後最後剛剛我聽到夏業最後希望說今天委員會能夠來支持民進黨團會提出幾個修正動議"},{"start":619.449,"end":631.037,"text":"第一個修正動議就是回應剛剛審發會委員一直在垂詢的要明定應負責人員的定義要來落實明確性所以說民進黨團會提出是9條之一第二項對於所謂的應負責人員細指機關首長或於該工作場所中代表機關首長實質執行管理"},{"start":641.744,"end":644.386,"text":"指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之人好盡可能用這個條文來補強讓他更明確第二個呢第102條第三項在申訴適用的範圍也要明確化也希望委員會能夠支持民進黨團的修正動力好最後一頁"},{"start":657.916,"end":660.277,"text":"那針對整個安全衛生事故審議小組的這個建制民進黨團提出兩個修正動議一個是授權給保訓會去訂定相關的規範針對後續的審任採取的原則審閱的程序跟組成由保訓會定之我希望在條文裡頭增列這個讓你們好做事有法源那19條之二的第三項呢"},{"start":683.283,"end":685.644,"text":"強化調查權跟裁法權也就是未來你們要去強化真的要走到公務機關去進行這個反霸凌的防治也就是所謂的檢查檢查工作要落實我希望能夠入法這個部分我想我們考試院應該都支持吧"},{"start":702.829,"end":717.68,"text":"協助你們把法更完備好最後有一點點這個心聲想要表達一下我跟培餘過去都是在教育文化委員會思堯是從2016年上任我們優先從校園法辦反霸凌上手"},{"start":718.42,"end":737.361,"text":"因為我們非常的遺憾校園的霸凌事件平仁當我們檢視了法規才發現校園欠缺反霸凌的處理的機制所以我們循過去在校園建制這個性騷性侵害相關的性平"},{"start":738.682,"end":765.965,"text":"機制的整個制度的運作我們好不容易好不容易在校園催生了全國一體試用各級學校的校園反霸凌防治準則這是我們努力從2016大概努力到前兩年剛剛完備但是也有人在倡議校園是不需要反霸凌的專法但這個恐怕如果"},{"start":767.443,"end":795.303,"text":"如果要等一個反霸凌的專法才能夠去執行校園的反霸凌那恐怕要等很久的時間所以我們都compromise先用一個霸凌防治準則在校園那同樣的在公務體系因為一個遺憾的事件讓我們更正視了公務體系要能夠有明確的公務體系反霸凌的作為那我絕對支持從保障法先行"},{"start":796.4,"end":816.034,"text":"保障法先行,也許有人認為要一個專法,或有人認為要適用職安法,跟私部門一起管理,但是那就是賣戶期啦,那就是我們要抓漏,再來搞都更,先抓漏,所以我希望今天朝野各黨都能夠有高度的共識,讓"},{"start":817.495,"end":841.705,"text":"保障法今天完成審議我也希望不需要送協商也不需要去表決我們可以理性的正向的來討論法案然後讓他在這個會期完成立法趕快上路讓公務體系反霸凌可以做得更好好 建新秘書長身體健康一切平安這是對您的提醒也是對我自己的提醒我們下次一起吃完早餐再上工好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":490,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時25分）謝謝主席。建忻秘書長，你現在狀況……"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：真的要保重身體，平常忙於公務，也要關心自己的健康，真的很不捨，我們剛剛都嚇壞了！"],["劉秘書長建忻：抱歉，驚擾大家。"],["吳委員思瑤：你應該一樣沒有吃早餐，我也沒吃早餐，會貧血，我們要吃點早餐再上工。","今天我們在討論職場反霸凌，而且是公務體系的法制化，事實上如果要問我們的公務體系，而且有來立法院備詢的，其實立法委員也真的要自我檢視，我們恐怕往往成為造成公務部門同仁身心靈壓力一個很大的惡源，我們希望大家問政能夠專業、理性，然後一起來彼此尊重。","回到我們今天的主題，我在整理資訊的時候，赫然發現考選部有一個統計，從2014年到2024年這十年來，公務人員報考人數從35萬4,308位一直下降到2024年只剩下16萬6,000位來報考，等於是10年間報考公務人員的人數遭腰斬。所以鐵飯碗不再熱門，鐵飯碗不再是鐵飯碗了嗎？考試院有沒有觀察到這樣子的狀況？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，的確有這樣的狀況，也跟委員說明，公務人員報考人數如果長期來看的話，大概在民國100年左右是高峰，前面比較低，後面也比較低，但是現在當然有各種因素，包含少子化，包含民間的就業機會增加，因為經濟發展的狀況，民間薪資的誘因等等……"],["吳委員思瑤：選擇也更多了。"],["劉秘書長建忻：的確有更多的選擇，所以的確有這樣的現象，我們有一直在注意跟觀察。"],["吳委員思瑤：但我們還是需要持續的招募人才，而且要留住人才，再加上打造一個友善的職場，缺一不可，這就是我們在面對的。無論如何，我們看到臺灣的人才多元，願意往私部門服務，也都是好事，但是我們也希望能夠有更多有志於公眾事務的朋友們願意投入公務體系的工作。這幾年來，我們留才、攬才、友善職場做了很多，加薪、減壓、打造職場更friendly，這些缺一不可。","我特別要肯定賴清德總統提出來的6年50億的全民心理健康韌性計畫，要強化支持現在公務體系的EAP支持方案，我們要持續做。而加薪方面，這幾年來，從蔡總統到賴總統，四度為公務體系加薪，加薪14%，反觀馬英九前總統只加薪了一次3%。現在因為立法院在刪減總預算，以致於我們加薪3%的薪水今年遭到延宕，目前應當都陸續發放了吧？應當是嘛！人事總處點頭。加薪14%，我們如果經濟發展好，稅收增加，我們持續的為公務同仁來增加薪水，增加大家投入公務體系的誘因。","剛剛講的加薪之外，第二個就是減壓。我也利用這一次的機會來謝謝考試院、謝謝銓敘部，思瑤一路倡議的公務體系的心理假，從校園開始延伸到公務體系，你們現在正在修正請假規則嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，目前還在作業中。"],["吳委員思瑤：我做出提醒，謝謝你們回應了我的倡議，現在給予公務體系的身心調適假，公務同仁是每年3日，我支持。但是關於公務人員請假規則第三條第三項，我希望你們再回去停看聽一下，因為你們現在條文的寫法意思是，還是先去請事假，如果事假請滿了，身心假再來說，好像還是這個方向。我非常在乎的是，身心調適假不只是一個假可以放幾天，而是我們國家能夠藉由假別來去掌握公務體系的同仁們，我們可以follow、可以追蹤誰去請了身心調適假，可能他的家庭、他的情感、他的交友狀況或是工作壓力產生了我們需要協助的部分。所以在請假規則第三條第三項的部分，是不是可以請銓敘部再思考、斟酌一下，好嗎？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，基本上請身心假是不需要先請其他假作為前提，但是因為委員您剛剛這樣講，對於您的質詢，我們去檢視一下那文字會不會產生……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，文字的用法。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝您，我們會再去看一下會不會產生誤解。"],["吳委員思瑤：否則一般就會覺得它是一個最後、最後，請滿了之後再額外的假，我想這個意義上就不對了，好嗎？"],["懷次長敍：是的，好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們對於身心調適的支持反映在你們請假規則的修訂，我都尊重也感謝，但希望能夠做到更好，不要為德不卒。","今天的主題就是霸凌防治的三支箭，今天我希望保障法可以大家有共識，然後快速的送出委員會。之後還有考績法，針對霸凌加害者記過的懲處是第二關，考績法什麼時候可以送？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們已經送了。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，希望下週莊瑞雄召委可以儘速來排審。關於安衛辦法，其實整個公務體系霸凌防治的執行面向都在安衛辦法，目前的進度如何？"],["劉秘書長建忻：行政院會銜送回來考試院，應該是昨天送回來的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以目標7月1日應該沒有問題嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們目前暫訂7月1日發布生效。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為也公告一段時間了，我希望立法院的委員們，我們這麼投入霸凌防治在公務體系，如果對於安衛辦法有任何具體的建議，都可以在這段時間趕快提供給考試部門，能夠有正向的意見就採納。基本上，保障法、考績法及安衛辦法缺一不可，我們都希望在這個會期、7月底之前都能夠完備，這是我們共同的目標。","萬事起頭難，再難也要做，五大面向的保障法，民進黨團包括吳思瑤本人都全力支持，但是有幾個問題垂詢一下，霸凌防護補破網，人力的量能要補足，以後保訓會的責任重大，一個是人才，另一個是人力。我先講人力，保訓會的員額有沒有因應新的霸凌防制……因為保障法修訂之後，你們要大量投入，有沒有給你們員額、足夠的人力？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員這麼關心很重要的量能問題。我們之前有跟人事總處……"],["吳委員思瑤：跟人事總處爭取？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，有跟人事總處蘇人事長提這個問題，我們也有給了一個很合理的員額……"],["吳委員思瑤：暫時提出，你們也不敢實質大開口嘛？要多一點人……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，畢竟才剛開始。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在給你們幾個？希望爭取幾位？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為我們自己也盤點我們內部有一些同仁本來就是具勞動背景，再加上我們先行整併，這是一般機關在申請員額的時候基本要做的。"],["吳委員思瑤：一定要先做的。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：經過盤點以後，我們跟蘇人事長說，希望能夠有20位，當然這是很理想的狀態。蘇人事長基於中央員額基準法，還有恪守立法院對於員額的控管，這是立法院過去以前的決議……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以先給你多少位？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：所以他目前給了我們覺得……現階段剛開始上路應該是可以……"],["吳委員思瑤：先給幾位？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：就是淨員額10位。"],["吳委員思瑤：先求有、再求好，10位？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，這是有關人力的部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：我覺得上路之後大家在這個制度運行也更有經驗，可能人力的量能……一來可能是上手的人力不需要那麼多，但也有可能因為相關的案類暴增，顯現更需要人力，我們都希望人事總處可以來支持。第二個是人才，因為要建置很多的專家委員會，要增加霸凌防制的專業人才，你的專家學者資料庫要協助各級政府、各公務機關，你們怎麼進行？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前我們已經有在撰擬專家學者人才庫的設置要點，這個部分我們也會跟教育部、衛福部，還有勞動部……"],["吳委員思瑤：他們現有的人才庫。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為他們本來也有一些專業的部分……"],["吳委員思瑤：其實校園也很多。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，就校園霸凌的部分。主要三大部會的人才庫已經有建置而且建置得很完整，所以我們會跟他們請益。同時，因為這當中很多專家學者的性質是一樣的，所以我們會藉由這個部分……"],["吳委員思瑤：你們趕快延攬、擴大，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後跨部會來協力。人力是重要的，人才是重要的，這才能讓真正的執行能夠穩健。","最後希望今天委員會能夠支持民進黨團會提出的幾個修正動議，第一個修正動議就是回應剛剛沈發惠委員一直在垂詢的，要明定應負責人員的定義來落實明確性，所以民進黨團會提出第十九條之一第二項，對於所謂的應負責人員，係指機關首長或於該工作場所中，代表機關首長實際執行管理、指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之人，儘可能用這個條文來補強，讓它更明確。","第二個、第一百零二條第三項的申訴適用範圍也要明確化，也希望委員會能夠支持民進黨團的修正動議。針對整個安全衛生事故審議小組的建置，民進黨團提出兩個修正動議，一個是授權給保訓會訂定相關規範，針對後續的審認、裁處原則、審議程序跟組成，由保訓會定之。我希望在條文裡頭增列這個，讓你們好做事、有法源。","第十九條之二第三項是強化調查權跟裁罰權，也就是未來你們要去強化，真的要走到公務機關進行反霸凌的防制，也就是所謂的檢查，檢查工作要落實，我希望能夠入法。這個部分我想考試院應當都支持吧？協助你們把法更完備。","最後有一點點心聲想要表達一下，我跟培瑜過去都是在教育及文化委員會，思瑤是從2016年上任，我們優先從校園反霸凌上手，因為我們非常遺憾，校園霸凌事件頻仍，當我們檢視了法規才發現校園欠缺反霸凌的處理機制，所以我們循過去在校園建置性騷、性侵害相關性平機制的整個制度運作，好不容易在校園催生了全國一體適用的各級學校校園反霸凌防制準則。這是我們從2016努力到前兩年才剛剛完備，但是也有人在倡議校園需要反霸凌的專法，如果要等有一個反霸凌的專法才能夠執行校園的反霸凌，恐怕要等很久的時間，所以我們都compromise先用一個霸凌防制準則在校園。","同樣的，在公務體系，因為一個遺憾的事件，讓我們更正視了公務體系要能夠有明確的公務體系反霸凌作為，我絕對支持從保障法先行。也許有人認為要專法，或有人認為要適用職安法跟私部門一起管理，但是那就來不及了。我們要抓漏，再來搞都更，所以我希望今天朝野各黨都能夠有高度共識，讓保障法完成審議，我也希望不需要送協商，也不需要表決，我們可以理性、正向的來討論法案，讓它在這個會期完成立法趕快上路，讓公務體系反霸凌可以做得更好。","建忻秘書長，身體健康、一切平安。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是對您的提醒，也是對我自己的提醒。我們下次一起吃完早餐再上工，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162274","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162274","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56460db7fb95c416d4c33769fbc08eef2e9e7f061fc5ac7c7dc905b1f1929327f535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:31:31 - 10:42:37","影片長度":"00:11:06","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:31:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:42:37+08:00","duration":666,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":1.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.15721875,"end":3.3553437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.586593750000002,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.20534375,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.829093750000002,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.83096875000001,"end":85.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.68409375,"end":95.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.77971875,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.60659375,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.88784375,"end":144.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.83159375,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.68784375,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.34596875,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.37971875,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.39659375000002,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.26721875,"end":165.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.64221875,"end":166.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.87409375000001,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.60346875000002,"end":183.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.66221875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.03596875000002,"end":184.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.36909375000002,"end":202.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.42534375000002,"end":210.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.68159375000002,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.21284375000002,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.38034375,"end":222.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.61221875,"end":223.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.19409375,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.97784375,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.92659375000002,"end":240.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.19596875000002,"end":240.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.78534375,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.28659375,"end":271.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.11346875,"end":257.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.30909375000005,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.43971875,"end":276.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.06346875,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.08346875,"end":285.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.21409375,"end":292.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.66034375000004,"end":297.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.60471875,"end":301.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.73971875,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.25846875,"end":312.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.03846875,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.55596875000003,"end":317.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.52971875000003,"end":319.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.39409375,"end":323.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.49471875,"end":346.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.54221875,"end":355.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.19471875000005,"end":356.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.53221875,"end":356.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.68409375000005,"end":358.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.93284375,"end":359.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.65409375,"end":376.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.30534375,"end":393.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.92846875000004,"end":386.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.01596875,"end":396.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.67784375,"end":411.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.96659375,"end":412.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.11846875000003,"end":412.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.28721875,"end":421.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.88909375000003,"end":424.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.89284375000005,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.96596875,"end":447.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.66971875,"end":456.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.36471875,"end":461.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.25409375000004,"end":500.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.75846875,"end":529.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.27284375,"end":598.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.28534375,"end":586.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.0090937500001,"end":601.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.57846875,"end":601.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.6584687500001,"end":659.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.74159375,"end":666.72846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.09,"end":1.399,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請次長好 有請次長"},{"start":8.632,"end":32.072,"text":"委員早好 次長早今天其實主要是想來跟次長來討論有關於我們世界遺產的一個從行銷 從文化統戰這件事情來做一些討論就是說我們現在這幾年我們非常清楚的知道說中國其實一直不停的試圖用各個面向來去對世界說台灣是中國的 對不對"},{"start":32.472,"end":59.12,"text":"因為這幾年 這很多很多年來這是他們的敘事的方式其實我自己以前念書的時候或是我們碰到一些外國人的時候大家其實也並沒有辦法分得那麼清楚華人世界裡面台灣跟中國到底實質上的差別在哪裡所以我覺得其實世界文化我們這個世界遺產的潛力點就會是一個非常好的機會來去敘述我們兩者之間的差異透過文化的方式來讓大家更能夠去"},{"start":59.58,"end":84.909,"text":"通過大家來看這個文化遺產的這個方式來更了解那我們現在呢其實是有這18個潛力點那其實都有不同的一個文化標籤也都非常可以清楚的說明台灣跟中國不同的地方可是我發現我們好像在使用這18個遺產的時候呢並沒有很強化的來去做一些宣傳跟曝光就簡單來說"},{"start":86.775,"end":108.98,"text":"像我們這幾年其實是在做阿里山森林鐵路這好像是你們跟外交部之前開會的時候覺得這是一個非常有吸引力的一個景點所以呢這是你們強推的所以你們不僅有做一些宣傳啦然後你們也會開國際研討會等等去講這件事情那我覺得這當然我也非常的支持但是我覺得有一件現實還是要考量就是阿里山鐵路這件事情這兩年來雖然去年又"},{"start":109.58,"end":121.79,"text":"本來要開始恢復但是後來遇到颱風種種種種的狀況所以變成說我們可能吸引他來台灣他並沒有辦法真正的去這裡所以我們是不是有一些備案呢準備要來去接著上去呢有沒有"},{"start":123.632,"end":144.939,"text":"目前還沒有 目前因為兩次那個推動會討論都是希望以阿里山森林鐵路當作一個主推的一個計劃因為他這個案子之所以會被選上是因為目前在日本還有澳洲還有歐洲都還有一些高山鐵路的存在或是自治型鐵路的存在他有一個跨國性的一個理解基本上我覺得這個這個"},{"start":146.74,"end":164.671,"text":"這個推廣阿里山森林鐵路我是沒有任何意見但是我覺得我們應該要準備來第二個備案就是說因為大家可能吸引了大家來可是事實上這個地方現在就是因為鐵路啊有時候一些狀況他就是沒有辦法去嘛所以我們是不是應該要準備一個第二個備案來去做更多的讓大家來的時候他是有機會可以去看見的對"},{"start":166.912,"end":182.766,"text":"部分我們也來進行一個討論選出後面的一個順序我覺得我們應該要來準備啦那這樣子的話大家來說除了阿里山不能來的話它至少還有個點它也可以去那因為我們的重點還是希望可以建立台灣跟中國的不同嘛所以再來就是說我們現在呢"},{"start":185.424,"end":202.11,"text":"我們可以看到這個是日本的世界文化遺產的網頁那其實日本針對他們自己的世界遺產宣傳不遺餘力然後拍出來的照片都非常之美那我自己會認為說世界文化遺產其實對於很多國家來說都把它當作一個文化觀光財"},{"start":203.49,"end":219.385,"text":"的定位所以呢我們來看看我們自己的部分這是我們自己我看我們選了我們其中的一個點我覺得我們的照片好像整個畫素也都沒有那麼有吸引力呈現上面我們的圖片好像也稍微都有一點小"},{"start":220.526,"end":247.531,"text":"這個可能在敘述上面次長懂我意思我們努力改善同仁是講說那個照片可以點開放大點開放大但是它其實跟這個比起來還是有落差我都有點開我們努力的學習然後我們的影音的畫素似乎也都有一點低因為好像我不太確定上次更新是什麼時候這些影片"},{"start":248.931,"end":250.753,"text":"照片更新是什麼時候啊?很多年前了如果我們今天要來做宣傳跟觀光的話我想照片是一個非常重要的重點那再接下一些細節就是說我們今天進去的時候呢市長就可以看到這就是點進去的大照片就長這樣子啦"},{"start":278.26,"end":305.036,"text":"吸引力還是有待加強但是我們這是日文介面可是我們右邊這邊怎麼會出現這個部分因為最近剛好也在改版當中所以一些版面都有一個不對稱或者是說點了英文版進去就後來又還是跳出都是中文字所以這個部分我們會改善所以這個部分我們現在是已經有在做這個在改版更新是的"},{"start":305.456,"end":319.836,"text":"喔 那大概是什麼時候會更新完成呢是預計今年一定會完成今年年底是不是今年年 今年年底嗎好的 那我想這部分是不是也可以一併的來改善因為這是台灣的世界文化遺產我們怎麼放了一個金字塔"},{"start":326.516,"end":353.612,"text":"好 抱歉 這我們來改善因為我還是要再強調我一開始講的一個主題這個是我們台灣跟中國不同的地方我們一定要在這個畫面我們讓別人接觸到的這個這是我們唯一的網站啦 坦白說啦這是我們唯一的網站我們應該要非常的確保它是呈現台灣世界文化遺產相關的資訊才對好 那這個部分請次長還有文資局局長一定要確實的來去監督 好嗎"},{"start":356.223,"end":375.87,"text":"可以嗎可以可以謝謝委員的指導那再來就是說聯合國教科文組織其實還有另外一個叫做世界非物質文化遺產的認證我們現在也有12項那我們接下來是否會開始針對這些非文化遺產的潛力名錄呢來去做一些盤點跟新增呢我們有沒有這個計畫"},{"start":377.61,"end":396.012,"text":"這個一直有在持續討論中像上一次的會議裡面談到的就是客家的部分是不是要納入客家八音那這個議題因為要納入他還是要有一個一定的程序這部分在上次的委員會裡面有委員提出了所以我們這個他還是多久會更新一次呢一般你們的規劃是"},{"start":396.733,"end":419.985,"text":"因為我們這個推動會大概都是一年會開兩次的會議每次在會議當中就會針對這些名錄或者是名錄的因為這個委員會就是要名錄的增加或者是排除除名都是在這個委員會裡面會去處理那你們會有一些相關的宣傳嗎因為非物質文化遺產如果沒有做任何的一些活動其實坦白來說它也很難讓人民有一些記憶"},{"start":422.126,"end":447.113,"text":"我們是有一些相關的宣傳計畫嗎並沒有專門針對非移的由文資局來主動做宣傳而是我們各項補助計畫出去的時候當然都希望他們能夠自己宣導可是委員的提醒我想我們也可以來努力研議一下看怎麼樣在經費中挪移去讓大家知道台灣的非移有哪些對 我還是要回到重點嘛我們的差異在這裡啦好 那再來就是說"},{"start":448.72,"end":468.509,"text":"因為其實我們今天做的這些所有事情都是會想要去強調我們的文化的一個差異那我希望就是說文化部接下來雖然面臨到了一些這個才化法的挑戰我們還是可能要來想辦法怎麼樣去支持那接下來當然還是要問到才化法"},{"start":469.489,"end":490.538,"text":"那才化法就是說因為我算了一下我們的文資預算預計將會跟114年相比新的才化法會少掉10.6億這是我目前的估算那我相信文化部應該自己已經有個心理有底的嘛那我想知道說因為我們雖然說現在我們主管的文化資產大部分都是古物對於地方通常都是"},{"start":491.438,"end":499.504,"text":"就是我們相關的預算只能優先用於文化部主管的一些文化資產那對於地方的一些補助可能就會受到影響我的理解是這樣這是正確的嗎"},{"start":502.206,"end":529.74,"text":"是的 好 那像最近我看到兩個新聞就是都在講說是地方其實有一些還帶預算修繕的文資像是這個湖口的中嘉園環搖然後還有這個龜山這個張腦寮協和專場這兩個地方其實都 地方都說要跟中央來申請經費那我想要知道說接下來我們在地方的補助上面刷財化法的影響我們大概目前的一個因應做法會是什麼呢"},{"start":531.789,"end":547.521,"text":"跟委員做報告因為行政院那邊還沒有做最後的確認那只是先提醒了文化部有一個準則就是我們文資法本來在補助上面來講縣市政府負擔的比例是譬如說除了台北市是50以外"},{"start":547.981,"end":562.517,"text":"那其他的都是文資局這邊補助的上限大概70到90不等那可是因應財化法之後我們或許這個補助的比例必須要下降就是地方的自籌管必須要拉高因為這只是一個移轉就是"},{"start":564.319,"end":585.407,"text":"總經費應該還是在那裡那以前因為會撥到文字局文字局去發給然後地方只要配合百分之十到三十不等那未來的話就變成是我們要降低因為我們的金額會被拿走了所以我們降低我們的補助比例可是地方縣市政府他應該在他們拿到的透過財化法拿到的經費裡面他要自己補足拉高他的自籌款"},{"start":586.127,"end":601.709,"text":"那這樣的話對於文資的工作就不會有太大的影響所以這個前提就是地方政府要能夠體認到他們透過財化法拿到的經費裡頭他依然要適度的去加強我們這些地方文資的一個抱存"},{"start":602.369,"end":623.481,"text":"但是因為地方其實團體都有些擔心就是說我們雖然錢好像整包不變只是從中央到了地方但是地方到底會不會把錢放到文資的修繕這是大家非常擔心的所以其實事實上我們現在有任何的工具可以去監督地方拿走這筆錢之後確實的如果用在這些文資的修復我們有任何的工具可以來監督嗎"},{"start":625.283,"end":651.465,"text":"目前沒有目前是沒有嘛 對不對所以我想喔因為最近大家非常關心我們的才化法拿走的這些錢到底會怎麼樣去使用那我還是要跟我們線上關心的一些公民團體來講今天這個錢呢之所以會造成我們到的地方可能沒辦法監督都還是因為國民黨跟民眾黨惡修了才化法造成了這些古物 文物 文資的一些我們的建物呢可能沒有辦法得到修繕"},{"start":652.426,"end":659.135,"text":"好 這個我希望大家還是要搞清楚 冤有頭債有主今天造成這個結果的就是國民黨跟民眾黨 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 次長請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":406,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時31分）謝謝主席，我們請次長。"],["主席：好，有請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早。"],["張委員雅琳：次長早。今天其實主要是想跟次長討論有關我們的世界遺產，從行銷、從文化統戰這件事情做一些討論。現在這幾年，我們非常清楚的知道，中國其實一直不停的試圖用各個面向，對世界說臺灣是中國的，對不對？因為這很多很多年來是他們敘事的方式。其實我自己以前唸書的時候，或是我們碰到一些外國人的時候，大家也並沒有辦法分得那麼清楚，在華人世界裡面臺灣跟中國到底實質上的差別在哪裡。我覺得其實我們這個世界遺產的潛力點就會是一個非常好的機會，來敘述我們兩者之間的差異，透過文化的方式，讓大家更能夠去……透過大家來看這個文化遺產的方式更了解。","我們現在有這18個潛力點，其實都有不同的文化標籤，也都可以清楚的說明臺灣跟中國不同的地方，可是我發現，我們好像在使用這18個遺產的時候，並沒有很強化的做一些宣傳跟曝光。簡單來說，像我們這幾年其實是在做阿里山森林鐵路，這好像是你們跟外交部之前開會的時候，覺得這是一個非常有吸引力的景點，所以這是你們強推的，你們不僅有做一些宣傳，你們也會開國際研討會去講這件事情，當然我也非常的支持。但是我覺得有一件現實還是要考量，阿里山鐵路這兩年來，雖然去年本來要開始恢復，可是後來遇到颱風等種種的狀況，變成我們可能吸引他們來臺灣，但他們並沒有辦法真正的去這裡。我們是不是有一些備案準備要接著上去呢？有沒有？"],["李次長靜慧：目前還沒有。兩次推動會討論的都是希望以阿里山森林鐵路當作一個主推的計畫，這個案子之所以會被選上，是因為目前在日本、澳洲、歐洲都還有一些高山鐵路或是之字形鐵路存在，它有跨國性的一個……"],["張委員雅琳：理解，基本上推動阿里山森林鐵路，我是沒有任何意見，但是我覺得我們應該要準備第二個備案，因為可能吸引了大家來，可是事實上這個鐵路現在就是因為各種狀況，他就是沒有辦法去，所以我們是不是應該要準備第二個備案，做更多的……讓大家來的時候，他是有機會可以去看見的。"],["李次長靜慧：這部分我們也來進行討論，選出後面的順序。"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得我們應該要準備，這樣子的話，大家來的時候，除了阿里山不能來的話，至少還有個點他也可以去，因為我們的重點還是希望可以建立臺灣跟中國的不同。","再來，我們可以看到這個是日本世界文化遺產的網頁，其實日本針對他們自己的世界遺產宣傳不遺餘力，然後拍出來的照片都非常之美。我自己會認為世界文化遺產其實對於很多國家來說，都把它當作文化觀光財的定位。我們來看看我們自己的部分，這是我們自己的，我選了其中的一個點，我覺得我們的照片好像整個畫素都沒那麼有吸引力，在呈現上，我們的圖片好像也稍微都有一點小，這個可能在敘述上面……次長，懂我的意思吧？"],["李次長靜慧：我們努力改善，剛剛同仁是說，那個照片可以點開、放大。"],["張委員雅琳：對，可以點開、放大，但是它跟這個比起來還是有落差喔！我都有點開。"],["李次長靜慧：我們努力地學習、改進。"],["張委員雅琳：然後我們影音的畫素似乎也都有一點低，我不太確定上次更新是什麼時候耶！這些影片、照片的更新是什麼時候啊？"],["李次長靜慧：好多年前了，我們來努力改善。"],["張委員雅琳：好多年前了嘛！如果我們今天要拿來做宣傳或觀光的話，我想照片是一個非常重要的重點。再來，在接下來的一些細節，我們今天進去的時候，次長應該可以看到，這就是點進去之後的大照片，就是長這個樣子啦！吸引力還是有待加強，但是這是日文介面，可是右邊怎麼會出現……"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分因為最近剛好在改版當中，所以有一些版面都有一些不對稱，或者是點了英文版，進去還是都跳出中文字……"],["張委員雅琳：是中文的資料。"],["李次長靜慧：所以這個部分我們會改善，今年會完成。"],["張委員雅琳：我們現在是不是已經有在做改版更新了？"],["李次長靜慧：正在改版中，是的。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候會更新完成？"],["李次長靜慧：預計今年一定會完成。"],["張委員雅琳：今年年底是不是？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["張委員雅琳：是今年年底嗎？好的，這個部分是不是可以一併改善？這是臺灣的世界文化遺產耶，我們怎麼放了一個金字塔？"],["李次長靜慧：抱歉，這個我們來改善。"],["張委員雅琳：我還是要再強調我一開始講的一個主題，這個是我們臺灣跟中國不同的地方，我們一定要在這個畫面，讓別人接觸到的這個……坦白說，這是我們唯一的網站，我們應該要非常確保它呈現的是臺灣世界文化遺產的相關資訊才對。這個部分請次長，還有文資局局長一定要確實去監督好嗎？可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：可以，謝謝委員的指導。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，聯合國教科文組織其實還有另外一個叫做世界非物質文化遺產的認證，我們現在也有12項，接下來我們是否會開始針對這些非物質文化遺產的潛力名錄盤點跟新增呢？我們有沒有這個計畫？"],["李次長靜慧：這個一直有在持續討論中，像在上一次的會議裡面談到的就是客家的部分是不是要納入客家八音，因為這個議題要納入還是要有一定的程序，這在上次的委員會裡面也有委員提出，所以我們也正在處理中。"],["張委員雅琳：這個大概是多久會更新一次呢？一般你們的規劃是……"],["李次長靜慧：因為我們的推動會大概都是一年開兩次會議，每次在會議當中就會針對這些名錄，或者是名錄的……這個委員會就是要做名錄的增加或者是排除、除名，這些都是在這個委員會裡面處理的。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。你們會有一些相關的宣傳嗎？因為非物質文化遺產如果沒有做任何的活動，其實坦白說，它也很難讓人民有一些記憶。你們有一些相關的宣傳計畫嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：文資局並沒有專門針對非遺主動去宣傳，而是我們各項補助計畫出去的時候，當然都希望他們能夠自行宣導，可是對於委員的提醒，我想我們也可以努力研議一下，看要怎麼在經費上面挪移，讓大家知道臺灣的非遺有哪一些。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我還是要回到重點，我們的差異就在這裡。再來就是，我們今天做的所有事情，都是為了想要強調我們的文化差異，我希望文化部接下來雖然面臨一些財劃法的挑戰，我們可能還是要想辦法怎麼樣去支持。","接下來當然還是要問到財劃法，我算了一下，我們的文資預算跟114年相比，預計新的財劃法將會少掉10.6億，這是我目前的估算，相信文化部自己應該已經心裡有底了。我想知道的是，雖然我們現在主管的文化資產大部分都是古物，對於地方通常都是……相關的預算只能優先用於文化部主管的一些文化資產，對於地方的一些補助可能就會受到影響，我的理解是這樣，這是正確的嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：最近我看到兩則新聞都在講地方其實有一些還待預算修繕的文資，像是這個湖口的鍾家圓環窯，然後還有龜山樟腦寮協和磚廠，這兩個地方其實地方都說要跟中央爭取經費。我想要知道的是，接下來我們在地方的補助上面，受到財劃法的影響，你們目前的因應作法大概會是什麼呢？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，因為行政院還沒有做最後的確認，只是先提醒文化部有一個準則，就是文資法本來在補助上，縣市政府負擔的比例譬如說，除了臺北市是50%以外，文資局對其他地方補助的上限大概在70%到90%不等，可是因應財劃法修正之後，或許這個補助的比例就必須要下降，就是地方的自籌款必須拉高。這只是一個移轉，總經費應該還是在那裡，以前因為會撥到文資局，由文資局去發給，然後地方只要配合出10%到30%不等，未來的話就變成是我們要降低，因為我們的金額被拿走了，所以我們會降低我們的補助比例，可是地方的縣市政府應該要從透過財劃法拿到的經費裡面自行補足，拉高它的自籌款，這樣對於文資的工作就不會有太大的影響。所以這個前提是，地方政府要能夠體認他們透過財劃法拿到的經費，它依然要適度加強這些地方文資的保存。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，但是地方團體其實都有一些擔心，雖然錢好像是整包不變，只是從中央到了地方，但是地方到底會不會把錢放到文資的修繕，這是大家非常擔心的。我們事實上現在有任何工具可以監督地方拿走這筆錢之後，確實有用在這些文資的修復上嗎？我們有任何工具可以監督嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：目前沒有。"],["張委員雅琳：目前是沒有的嘛，對不對？所以我想，最近大家非常關心財劃法拿走了，這些錢到底會怎麼樣使用，我還是要跟線上關心的公民團體來講，今天這個錢之所以會造成到了地方可能沒有辦法監督，都還是因為國民黨跟民眾黨惡修了財劃法，造成這些古物、文物、文資等建物可能沒有辦法得到修繕。這個我還是希望大家可以搞清楚，冤有頭、債有主，今天造成這個結果的就是國民黨跟民眾黨，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，次長請回。","等一下等到范雲委員質詢後，我們休息5分鐘。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：我們有請林宜瑾。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5643b20a951ee2e368dcd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dcad8eac70585468305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:28:40 - 10:37:42","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:28:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:37:42+08:00","duration":542,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.99659375,"end":4.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.657843750000001,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.26346875,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.74409375,"end":33.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.98346875,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.712843750000005,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.416593750000004,"end":45.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.08284375,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.196593750000005,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.900968750000004,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.579718750000005,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.19971875,"end":57.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.945968750000006,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.869718750000004,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.88596875,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.91534375,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.55159375000001,"end":71.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.22159375000001,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.87971875000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.10659375,"end":90.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.63284375,"end":92.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.40034375,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.77471875,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.78721875000001,"end":106.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.76534375,"end":111.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.59159375,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.56971875,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.11784375,"end":120.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.94034375000001,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.77096875000001,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.72346875,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.34346875,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.61721875,"end":137.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.91659375,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.83159375,"end":146.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.02909375000002,"end":151.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.70346875,"end":161.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.91284375,"end":165.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.84471875,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.02096875,"end":181.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.07096875000002,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.64034375,"end":178.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.63159375,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.98159375,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.01096875000002,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.41409375,"end":202.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.86846875,"end":207.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.77909375000002,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.24284375000002,"end":210.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.32284375,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.82846875,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.83034375000003,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.55971875,"end":236.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.82096875000002,"end":248.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.20721875,"end":259.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.10846875000004,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.96846875,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.62221875,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.05221875,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.31346875,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.95784375,"end":287.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.52596875,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.38596875,"end":293.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.06096875000003,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.50784375,"end":298.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.22909375,"end":317.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.92221875,"end":320.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.90909375,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.57534375,"end":327.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.06409375000004,"end":332.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.58659375,"end":335.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.57346875,"end":338.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.25221875,"end":346.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.53784375000004,"end":347.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.33096875,"end":352.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.95471875000004,"end":353.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.43971875,"end":357.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.20284375,"end":362.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.75909375000003,"end":363.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.37909375000004,"end":365.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.77971875000003,"end":373.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.55909375000005,"end":376.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.25471875000005,"end":378.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.22909375,"end":381.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.43971875,"end":384.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.01721875000004,"end":386.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.73846875000004,"end":392.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.96534375000005,"end":400.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.01471875000004,"end":402.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.02284375000005,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.11846875000003,"end":414.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.17284375,"end":426.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.52971875000003,"end":437.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.88659375000003,"end":443.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.70846875,"end":445.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.13846875,"end":446.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.18471875,"end":451.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.35284375000003,"end":468.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.66659375,"end":470.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.69159375000004,"end":474.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.02846875000006,"end":476.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.66096875000005,"end":478.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.17971875,"end":479.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.14159375,"end":503.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.03659375,"end":504.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.84659375,"end":505.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.72409375,"end":510.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.41534375000003,"end":517.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.05971875,"end":528.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.9778437500001,"end":534.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.54659375,"end":537.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.77409375,"end":539.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.54159375,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.6428437500001,"end":539.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.69346875,"end":540.45284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.155,"end":3.527,"text":"謝謝主席 請工程會陳主委請主委"},{"start":11.669,"end":33.03,"text":"主委今天針對祭司法有幾個版本在進行相關的修法但這個本席對這個版本的內容我是沒有太大的意見要請教但是我對這個祭司法這個法令我就很有興趣來請教就教一下主委"},{"start":34.171,"end":53.445,"text":"這個我們祭司法裡面規範的科別祭司的科別總共有32科主委這個你應該很清楚那我把它做了一個統計這個有一些科別我隨便舉個例子因為我的選區是海濱亞我們有一個漁撈業的祭司這個85旁邊農役121"},{"start":64.079,"end":92.251,"text":"主委這個85跟121是有這個科別以來到今天的數字還是一年的數字有這個法 請我們後面來幫忙回答那是全部的數字好 所以副主委那你當副主委時間也不是很長所以你會不會覺得很奇怪 我們祭司法"},{"start":93.684,"end":109.617,"text":"這個法規存在 然後要來考這32項類別裡面 有一些類別從有這個法 有這個祭司執照的法 有這個祭司法開始到今天只有85張 就發了85張的祭司嘛 對不對有些發100多張 紡織工程65張"},{"start":117.196,"end":121.7,"text":"這個冶金工程35這個更低那礦業安全32請問一下這個像這些數量極低從開始到現在都連100張都達不到的他是"},{"start":133.63,"end":150.386,"text":"這個行業根本不需要這個專業執照還是說根本很難考所以沒有人考得上他到底有沒有檢討過這個原因是什麼這個整個企業環境在改變啦然後所有的企業的內容都改變比方說以前魚撈"},{"start":151.787,"end":164.727,"text":"那可能有些輪機長啊或者是大副啊他是需要考這個執照的那是不是已經減少需求了,比方說冶金"},{"start":165.905,"end":193.72,"text":"那冶金過去是有有冶金科的大概有成大跟過去的台北工專可是現在都轉型成材料因為材料都已經進入這個高科技啊到台積電去啦所以冶金會比較少都到材料科學去了所以這整個需求有改變啦是是是所以主委我其實你這個你點出了本席其實疑問的地方啦就是說第一個會不會是我們當時在立這個法的時候啊"},{"start":194.48,"end":209.095,"text":"的確有這樣的一個要求跟需求那後來產業形態的改變這個產業沒落所以這種需求就減少第二種會不會是這種需求市場上所需要的人他根本不需要技師執照"},{"start":210.296,"end":229.75,"text":"第三種我們政府相關在這方面的人才的規定譬如說土木技師你就有規定這個行業哪一種行業他要做什麼必須要簽證要有土木技師合格的簽證他才可以所以有一些行業根本沒有任何的需要簽證所以他幹嘛去考"},{"start":230.868,"end":259.242,"text":"那我的意思是說所以不管他哪一個原因或理由主委你有沒有覺得有沒有必要把這一部祭司法重新好好的來調整而不是只有我們在講這個罹患精神疾病身心障礙啦等等這些地方要不要審查啊等等會不會應該要回歸到這一部祭司法裡面隨著時代的演進到今天為止立了這個法結果有一些項目32個項目裡面根本"},{"start":260.548,"end":287.234,"text":"我是常 這是總共嘛或許有可能有一些科別可能已經五年了可能Maybe多少年一個人來報考都沒有所以主委你覺得這應不應該好好的來把這一部技師法這種核心問題好好的來檢討一下那這個謝謝委員的這個意見我們再跟考試院來協商有些考試科目是否"},{"start":288.584,"end":314.749,"text":"的確如果長年沒有人報考那麼還是不是有必要檢討或者社會根本沒有這種需求這必須要跟考試院來一下就是各個行業也了解一下然後考試院詢問一下然後實際在產業運作的需求面再清楚的認知一下我們就可以好好的把這個祭司法這個法令核心的問題我們好好來做一個檢討這第一個"},{"start":318.01,"end":344.575,"text":"第二個針對這些科別裡面這個大地工程技師這個歷年報考跟錄取人數我們把它做一個統計我們就可以發現從110年開始我們改了一個考試方法叫做兩階段考試就是考兩次的意思那你看可以從過去大概都250人以上甚至高達390人"},{"start":347.611,"end":350.516,"text":"的報考人數一下驟減成15跟22那"},{"start":354.78,"end":382.859,"text":"這個倒考人數更低只有11跟12那入取人數當然相對比例上沒有低因為他等於有一半考上了有一半考上不會比你一階段考的時候不會比那個雙軌制考的時候來的入取率來的比例來的低好那112年開始我覺得可能我們發現這個一下子人數不合理不正常的驟減所以我們又恢復這個雙軌制"},{"start":385.081,"end":401.899,"text":"那主委你對於這個這個驟減啊導致可能業界人才的需求不足或者是工會好像也有提出一些看法嘛那主委你覺得這個大地工程技師到底這個出了什麼問題"},{"start":403.049,"end":425.096,"text":"很有的人程度比較好他認為分兩階段考試太麻煩了但是也有說如果分兩階段考試那麼有的人可以充分的準備嘛這個也是很好的一個概念那到明年開始到底要恢復兩階段還是雙軌"},{"start":426.576,"end":442.57,"text":"我們正在跟考試院在商議當中這個必須由這個商議妥適之後他們再來決定到底是兩階段或者是維持一階段或者是雙軌同步那我們也會跟工會來討論OK這個市場"},{"start":447.23,"end":467.062,"text":"大力工程技師市場有需求大家才會關心如果他跟其他業別一樣根本沒有人在考那這個其實就不需要在這裡討論他討論方向應該是這個要不要要存費但看起來他大家很關心所以他數字不合理不明顯數字不合理非常明顯的驟降"},{"start":469.485,"end":476.559,"text":"從那個比例縮減可能是九成啦所以那個比例是非常不合理的驟降所以這裡面一定有一些"},{"start":478.348,"end":503.139,"text":"問題存在那站在立法院監督的立場我們一定希望執照不可以亂發嘛這個祭司一定要學有專精要合格要怎麼樣啊但是呢市場也有他的需求面嘛就市場他你連續好幾年都大地工程祭司都沒人扣得掉或者錄取的比例很低的情況底下那可能在引起市場供需的問題上面也會出問題"},{"start":504.139,"end":516.768,"text":"所以呢這個我覺得這個數字啊它不合理它會驟降八九成以上的原因它背後一定有一個原因啦所以我還是會希望工程會跟考試院"},{"start":519.581,"end":539.789,"text":"會後針對這個問題 恐怕要好好研究因為數字 如果說你說就減個10% 20%甚至30% 我們都還可以理解但是一下子這個報名人數這個少了大概九成有這個其實我覺得就不合理啦所以主委 這應該可以來了解一下利齊跟考試院來商量好 OK 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":338,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時28分）謝謝主席，請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早！"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早！主委，今天針對技師法有幾個版本要進行相關的修法，本席對各個版本的內容是沒有太大的意見要請教，但是對技師法這個法令，我就很有興趣來就教一下主委。","技師法裡面規範的技師科別總共有32科，主委，這個你應該很清楚，我把它做了一個統計，隨便舉個例子，因為我的選區是在海邊，我們有漁撈技師，這個證照數是85，旁邊的農藝技師是121。主委，這個85和121是從有這個科別以來到今天的數字，還是1年的數字？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請我們副主委跟您說明。"],["蔡委員其昌：請副主委來幫忙回答，好。"],["李副主任委員怡德：報告委員，那是全部的數字。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，副主委，你當副主委的時間也不是很長，你會不會覺得很奇怪，有技師法這個法規存在，大家要來考這32項類別，裡面有一些類別從有技師法開始到今天只有85張，就是只發了85張技師證照，對不對？有些發一百多張，紡織工程65張，冶金工程35張，這個更低，礦業安全32張。請問一下，像這些數量極低的，從開始到現在連100張都達不到的，是這個行業根本不需要這個專業證照，還是根本很難考，所以沒有人考得上，你們到底有沒有檢討過這個原因是什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為整個企業環境在改變，所有企業的內容都在改變。比方漁撈，以前可能有些輪機長或者大副是需要考這個證照的，現在是不是已經減少需求了。比方冶金，過去是有，有冶金科的大概有成大及過去的臺北工專，可是現在都轉型成材料，因為材料都進入高科技行業……"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對。"],["陳主任委員金德：到台積電去了……"],["蔡委員其昌：是、是、是。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以冶金會比較少……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯。"],["陳主任委員金德：都到材料科學去了，所以這整個需求有改變。"],["蔡委員其昌：是、是、是。主委，其實你點出了本席疑問的地方，就是第一種、會不會是我們當時在立這個法的時候的確有這樣的要求及需求，後來產業型態改變，這個產業沒落，所以這種需求就減少。第二種、會不會是這種市場上所需要的人根本不需要技師證照？第三種、政府在這方面人才的相關規定，譬如土木技師，政府就有規定哪一種行業要做什麼必須要有土木技師的合格簽證才可以，但有一些行業根本沒有需要任何簽證，所以他幹嘛去考？","我的意思是不管哪一個原因或理由，主委，你覺得有沒有必要把這一部技師法重新好好的來調整，而不是只有調整現在我們在講的罹患精神疾病或身心障礙等等這些、地方要不要審查等等？會不會應該要回歸到這一部技師法裡面，隨著時代演進，當時立了這個法，到今天為止，總共32個科別裡面，結果有一些科別或許根本已經5年或者多少年1個來報考的都沒有。主委，你覺得應不應該把這一部技師法的這種核心問題好好的來檢討一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝委員的這個意見，我們再跟考試院來協商……"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["陳主任委員金德：有些考試科目如果長遠沒有人報考，是不是有必要檢討，我們來……"],["蔡委員其昌：或者社會根本沒有這種需求。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，這必須要跟考試院來協商。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，就是就各個行業別了解一下、跟考試院詢問一下，還有就實際的產業運作需求面，再清楚的認知一下，我們就可以把技師法這個法令的核心問題好好來做一個檢討。"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，這是第一個。","第二個、針對這些科別裡面的大地工程技師歷年報考及錄取人數，我們做一個統計，就可以發現，從110年開始，我們改了考試方法，叫做二階段考試，就是考二次的意思，你看報考人數從過去大概都250人以上，甚至高達390人，一下驟減成15、22，到考人數更低，只有11、12，錄取人數的比率上沒有低，因為等於有一半考上了，不會比雙軌制時候的錄取率來得低，112年開始，我覺得可能我們發現人數一下子不合理、不正常的驟減，所以又恢復雙軌制。對於這一個驟減導致業界人才的需求可能不足，或者是公會好像也有提出一些看法，主委，你覺得大地工程技師到底出了什麼問題？"],["陳主任委員金德：可能有的人程度比較好，他認為分兩階段考試太麻煩了，但是也有人認為，如果分兩階段考試，讓有的人可以充分的準備，這個也是很好的一個概念。到明年開始，到底要恢復兩階段，還是雙軌，我們正在跟考試院商議當中，這個必須等商議妥適之後，再來決定到底是兩階段，或者是維持一階段，或者是雙軌同步，我們也會跟公會來討論。"],["蔡委員其昌：市場對於大地工程技師有需求，大家才會關心，如果它跟其他業別一樣，根本沒有人在考，那這個就不需要在這裡討論，討論的方向應該是這個的存廢，但看起來大家很關心，所以它的數字不合理、非常明顯的驟降，縮減比例可能是九成，是非常不合理的驟降，所以這裡面一定有一些問題存在。站在立法院監督的立場，我們一定希望執照不可以亂發，技師一定要學有專精、要合格，但是市場也有需求面，在連續好幾年大地工程技師都沒人考得上，或是錄取的比例很低的情況底下，可能在市場的供需上面也會出問題。我覺得這個數字會驟降八、九成以上的背後一定有一個原因，所以我還是希望工程會跟考試院會後針對這個問題恐怕要好好研究，如果說你說數字驟減個10%、20%，甚至30%，我們都還可以理解，但是一下子報名人數少了大概九成，這個我覺得就不合理，所以主委應該可以來了解一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會立即跟考試院來商量。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162272","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162272","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564d859a3e5b904bdf6cd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dcd074087a6b2f41335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:19:26 - 10:28:16","影片長度":"00:08:50","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:19:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:28:16+08:00","duration":530,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.87471875,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.18659375,"end":3.8278437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.66659375,"end":28.667843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.24159375,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.55346875,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.58721875,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.90784375,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.70096875,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.291593750000004,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.759718750000005,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.299718750000004,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.13909375,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.74971875,"end":74.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.10784375,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.64284375000001,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.64221875000001,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.44284375000001,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.45971875000001,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.47659375,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.08409375000001,"end":159.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.56284375,"end":168.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.05096875,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.19409375,"end":174.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.61971875,"end":177.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.35784375,"end":178.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.12971875000002,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.99034375000002,"end":179.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.43721875,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.62659375,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.53284375,"end":190.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.87034375000002,"end":199.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.84784375,"end":201.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.58159375000002,"end":220.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.54909375000003,"end":221.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.97096875000003,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.92409375000003,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.36659375000002,"end":230.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.23096875000002,"end":235.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.47096875000003,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.15846875000003,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.98909375000002,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.41409375,"end":248.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.16034375,"end":258.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.20596875,"end":257.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.04971875,"end":262.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.58096875,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.10346875,"end":268.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.42346875000004,"end":294.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.73159375,"end":297.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.02221875000004,"end":301.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":303.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.90346875,"end":315.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.99846875000003,"end":318.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.93471875,"end":323.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.36846875000003,"end":330.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.40971875,"end":331.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.79346875000005,"end":373.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.98096875000005,"end":378.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.46971875,"end":380.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.86159375,"end":387.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.63284375,"end":391.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.95721875000004,"end":391.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.61534375,"end":398.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.55096875000004,"end":402.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.80346875000004,"end":405.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.36846875000003,"end":418.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.83471875000004,"end":423.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.35721875,"end":429.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.20846875,"end":439.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.86096875000004,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.51721875000004,"end":453.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.33971875000003,"end":498.23159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.46784375000004,"end":504.55971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.77909375,"end":526.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.24409375,"end":526.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.61534375,"end":527.59409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.259,"end":29.934,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們陳主委陳主委主委早主委我想今天我們交委會是審查祭司法我想這個是一個落實對這個性障礙族群的一個尊重那我們會來支持那不過今天還是有幾個我們實際面上的一些問題那來請教一下主委主委那個您看這個投影片上面主委跟我們講這個什麼地方"},{"start":37.423,"end":59.022,"text":"主委我想今年恆春建成邁入150週年我們過去也一直積極跟文化部我們也積極爭取恆春古城的一個修復跟整建文化部今年也特別編了3億多的經費目前這個案子是送到我們工程會再進行審查不曉得主委知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":71.809,"end":91.177,"text":"就是基本設計的審查是不是目前審查的進度好那目前的進度是還在計畫寫審就是他會送國安會之前會請各機關表示意見那工程會在寫審當中目前在進行中"},{"start":93.454,"end":113.886,"text":"主委因為我過去我也跟著我們潘孟安縣長我們也在縣政府服務那我們都很關心這個恆春古城的一個整個整建的因為這是我們現在不像台灣保留最完整的一個古城牆我們也希望能夠做一個未來對一個觀光發展的一個整建之後對觀光發展有一個很正面的注意我想我們李一德副主委我們過去"},{"start":114.967,"end":131.554,"text":"在縣府同事的時候我們都一直在努力做這個事情那但是因為現在考量到整個工程的經費還有這個城牆有些緊鄰私人地的一些問題所以變成這個工程的確實有一些難度存在那所以文化部我們接觸到文化部的"},{"start":132.514,"end":158.988,"text":"他們在規劃設計上有要採取一個分段發包的一個策略我個人是覺得這樣分段發包會讓整個恆春的這個市鎮的周邊會變成長期的一個工地化的一個現象或是反而會影響到交通跟一個混光的一個發展那主委這部分依你的尊嚴有沒有辦法協助做怎麼樣的一個規劃可以讓工程能夠一次到位一次來做處理"},{"start":160.749,"end":189.201,"text":"這部分我們是請李德副主委來跟文化部來會商看用什麼方式既能夠完成這個修復然後也避免這個同時間周圍都在進行工地施工的狀況工地化的一個狀況那李副主委在屏東待過嘛所以我請李德副主委來跟文化部來協商副主委那我們就找個時間我們約大家一起來討論一下好不好好"},{"start":192.243,"end":200.639,"text":"因為古城的部分還有面臨一個問題就是我們很多身上的朋友以過去古城是有階梯的一個狀況被人家推掉這樣子的一個"},{"start":203.054,"end":223.439,"text":"銜接的一個波度又很陡所以造成這個有些做爐膩的朋友,他想要站在街上有一些困難點那如果針對這樣的一個行動不便的長者或是爐膩族的部分像這樣的一個設施部分,主委能不能提供什麼樣的建議來做改善是,是粒子建築吧"},{"start":224.983,"end":229.266,"text":"那肯定古蹟那我可能要尊重文化部的意見整個修復的設計整個都會有文化部的神意"},{"start":237.176,"end":263.596,"text":"好 那我們也會來理解啦 來跟文化部看看有沒有可能做這樣的設施那這樣設施會不會有沒有違反原來它國定普及的相關的規定文字法裡面有些是規定的因格對 所以就是因為有困難所以才要請主委用個想辦法 看怎麼來協助啦好像請理副主委一併這個讓我們的長者還是一些腎臟的朋友也能夠"},{"start":265.217,"end":292.888,"text":"趁現在看一看整個高雄的情形主委我想我們現在大家也都很關心美國關稅的風暴經濟部這邊有宣布我們要擴大公共建設的投資從200億到2500億的增加維持GDP佔比跟去年水準相同主委你目前知道我們有哪些部會會進行擴大公共設施的規劃嗎"},{"start":296.422,"end":322.711,"text":"經濟部的的設施是不是公共建設目前目前預算今年114年的法定預算已經審議了那這個是在還沒有關稅衝擊之前編訂的經過大院來審議所以各部僅能針對114年度的法定預算那麼去做施作"},{"start":324.64,"end":347.876,"text":"並沒有特別的預算來增加擴大公共建設這件事情據我了解應該沒有沒有啦主委我想我們還是要回歸到我們現在目前的整個公共工程跟營進業這個缺工缺料的一個問題那目前依據我們國土署發布的一個營進業的一個經濟概況目前缺工的人數高達五萬三千人"},{"start":348.436,"end":370.444,"text":"那一年增加四千多 將近四千三百人人數在增加主委 這沒有人 這工程是怎麼進行尤其我們自己在 看到我們像過去我一直在請主委幫忙尤其冰凍關我們有偏鄉有離島這個很多公共城的發包經費又要比其他的地方要更高才會在這裡衝上來那這個衝上來他們也擔心"},{"start":375.668,"end":380.557,"text":"這都很多的一個結構性的一些問題那主委這邊有沒有什麼好的一個想法"},{"start":382.069,"end":407.518,"text":"報告委員如果是公共工程的話有必要的話可以專案來協助那麼引進移工那另外呢工程會目前也跟考試院或其他大學在討論如何在偏鄉來協助培訓相關營建管理的人才跟大學合作落地取材"},{"start":408.318,"end":429.547,"text":"就是比方說設在屏東或是在花蓮我們現在目前是東部是很缺東部很缺所以我們就是特別要跟大學合作那麼來讓大學招生他有學分班但公共工程委員會也會針對我們原來的課程培訓也會加進去那麼希望就地取材讓就地的"},{"start":430.287,"end":453.332,"text":"居民他有這個一技之長然後投入當地的營建業或者相關的管理是我們目前在規劃這樣的事情是就陳儒剛剛我們有幾位委員特別提到包含過去我也接受過的代替像我們現在很多我們的住在屏東高雄的鄉親因科企分發到東部或到北部調不回來是因為"},{"start":454.392,"end":476.446,"text":"我們台鐵的招考東部跟北部招考都不順利因為我們的新制結構的問題那我過去有跟他們溝通說就像主委剛剛提的你應該就東部或北部在地的主體去增加怎麼樣一個誘因讓他們可以科技留在那個地方做服務讓我們這個大家都能夠有機會可以調回自己的家鄉來做服務不然這因為這整個"},{"start":478.047,"end":504.161,"text":"人力的結構掉來掉去都不是套路就跟這個狀況一樣沒有在地就地取材的這個培訓因為我們都面臨很多的問題包含剛剛講的縣政府的這個土木的少年給扣掉了幾十年兩年他有那個祭祀白他就給你處理開業了他不會想留在公家機關我們也都很擔心這樣一個問題的產生所以主委我想這個是我們未來要一起在努力的一個方向"},{"start":505.301,"end":526.452,"text":"那最後我想就是針對未來這個營建工程的物價指數的調整的部分那我想我們也擔心許多的重大的公共建設的流標的情形越來越嚴重那我想這個部分是不是請主委我們在兩個月之內針對這樣的一個缺工缺料的部分給本市一個報告好不好 要怎麼來做改善好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時19分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早。主委，今天我們交委會審查技師法，這是落實對身心障礙族群的尊重，我們會支持，不過今天還是有幾個實際面上的問題要請教一下主委。主委，請您看投影片，主委，你知道這是什麼地方嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是在屏東的恆春。"],["徐委員富癸：這是我們的恆春古城。主委，今年恆春建城邁入150週年，我自己過去也一直積極地跟文化部爭取恆春古城的修復跟整建，文化部今年也特別編三億多的經費，目前這個案子已送到工程會在進行審查，不曉得主委知道這個案子嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前的進度還在計畫協審，就是在送國發會之前會請各機關表示意見，工程會在協審當中，目前在進行中。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，過去我也跟著我們潘孟安縣長在縣政府服務，我們都很關心恆春古城的整建，因為這是目前我們臺灣保留最完整的古城牆。我們也希望未來整建之後，能夠對觀光發展有很正面的助益，我想李怡德副主委過去和我們在縣府同事的時候，我們一直在努力做這個事情。但是現在因為考量到整個工程的經費，還有城牆有部分緊鄰私人地的問題，變成這個工程確實有一些難度存在，所以我們接觸到文化部，他們在規劃設計上要採取分段發包的策略。我個人覺得，這樣分段發包下去，會讓整個恆春市鎮周邊變成長期工地化的現象，我比較擔心這樣反而會影響到交通跟觀光的發展。主委，依你的專業，這部分有沒有辦法協助做怎麼樣的規劃，能夠讓工程一次到位、一次性做處理？"],["陳主任委員金德：這部分我是不是請李怡德副主委跟文化部會商，看用什麼方式，既能夠完成修復，然後也能避免同時間周圍都在進行工地施工的狀況。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊，就是不斷地工地化的狀況。"],["陳主任委員金德：李副主委也在屏東待過嘛，所以我請李怡德副主委來跟文化部協商。"],["徐委員富癸：副主委，那我們就找個時間大家一起來討論一下，好不好？好。","主委，古城的部分還面臨一個問題，就是很多身障的朋友，因過去古城是有階梯的，要爬樓梯上去，銜接的坡度又很陡，所以造成有些坐輪椅的朋友想上去有困難，針對行動不便的長者或是輪椅族，像這樣的設施部分，主委能不能提供什麼樣的改善建議？"],["陳主任委員金德：是歷史建築？"],["徐委員富癸：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：國定古蹟的部分，我們可能要尊重文化部的意見，它整個修復的設計都會有文化部的審議。好，那我們也會跟文化部來看看，有沒有可能做這樣的設施，這樣的設施有沒有違反原來它國定古蹟的相關規定，文資法裡面有些規定得很嚴格。"],["徐委員富癸：對，就是因為有困難，所以才要請諸位趕快想辦法看要如何來協助。"],["陳主任委員金德：我會請李副主委一併納入跟文化部協商……"],["徐委員富癸：對，讓我們的長者還是一些身障的朋友也能夠上去城牆上面，看一下整個古城的情形。","主委，現在大家都很關心美國的關稅風暴，經濟部宣布我們要擴大公共建設投資，從200億增加到2,500億，以維持GDP占比跟去年水準相同。主委，就你目前所知，我們有哪些部會會擴大公共設施的規劃嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：是經濟部的公共建設是不是？"],["徐委員富癸：除了經濟部之外，其他部會有嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：今年114年的法定預算已經審議了，這是在還沒有關稅衝擊之前編定的，也經過大院審議，所以各部會僅能針對114年度的法定預算去施作，並沒有特別預算要增加擴大公共建設這件事情，據我了解應該沒有。"],["徐委員富癸：沒有啦！主委，我們還是要回歸到現在整個公共工程及營造業缺工缺料的問題，依據國土署發布的營造業經濟概況，目前缺工的人數高達5萬3,000人，1年以將近4,300人的人數在增加。主委，缺工的話，工程是要怎麼進行？尤其屏東縣，過去我一直請主委幫忙，屏東縣有偏鄉、有離島，很多公共工程發包，經費又要比其他地方更高才招得到廠商，招到廠商之後，他們也擔心找不到工人，這都有很多結構性的問題。主委有沒有什麼好的想法？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，如果是公共工程，有必要的話，可以專案來協助引進移工。另外，工程會目前也跟考試院、大學討論如何在偏鄉來協助培訓相關營建管理人才，跟大學合作……"],["徐委員富癸：就地取材啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：對，比方設在屏東或設在花蓮，目前東部是很缺，所以我們特別要跟大學合作，讓大學招生，他有學分班，當然公共工程委員會針對原來的課程培訓也會加進去，希望就地取材，讓當地的居民有一技之長，能夠投入當地的營建業或者相關管理，我們目前是在規劃這樣的事情。"],["徐委員富癸：是，就誠如剛剛有幾位委員特別提到，過去我也質詢過臺鐵，像現在有很多住在屏東、高雄的鄉親考試分發到東部或到北部調不回來，是因為臺鐵東部及北部的招考都不順利，因為薪資結構的問題。我過去有跟他們溝通，就像主委剛剛提的，應該就東部或北部的在地子弟去增加誘因，讓他們可以考試分發留在那個地方來服務，讓大家都能夠有機會調回自己的家鄉來服務，不然整個人力結構永遠都調來調去，都不是頭路。就跟現在這個狀況一樣，主委說的，沒有就地取材的培訓，我們永遠都面臨很多問題，包含剛剛講的，年輕人考上縣政府的土木工程人員，做沒1、2年，他有技師執照之後，就自己出去開業了，他不會想要留在公家機關，我們也都很擔心這樣的問題產生。主委，所以我想這個是未來我們要一起再努力的方向。","最後，針對未來營造工程物價指數的調整部分，我們也擔心許多重大公共建設的流標情形越來越嚴重，這個部分是不是請主委在2個月之內針對這樣缺工缺料的部分給本席一個報告，好不好？看要怎麼來改善。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。稍後於蔡其昌、何欣純、許智傑質詢完，休息10分鐘。","現在請蔡其昌副院長。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564f91045d51965f7f6cd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dcc918614e2a6c40d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:08:59 - 10:19:05","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:08:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:19:05+08:00","duration":606,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":3.6759687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.341593750000001,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.754718750000002,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.96471875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.89971875,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.27846875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.41721875,"end":41.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.11721875,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.29409375,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.23159375,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.75784375,"end":76.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.47471875000001,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.86096875000001,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.41721875,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.72909375,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.60159375,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.25096875000001,"end":107.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.40659375000001,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.94596875,"end":124.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.60221875,"end":129.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.63034375,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.26284375,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.77159375000002,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.02034375000002,"end":149.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.38034375,"end":167.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.80221875,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.26596875,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.17721875,"end":181.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.09659375,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.01096875000002,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.93471875,"end":184.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.20471875,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.68471875,"end":190.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.95471875,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.97159375,"end":191.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.65659375,"end":238.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.30596875,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.22534375,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.02221875,"end":248.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.51971875,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.51534375000003,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.73471875,"end":248.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.78534375,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.93721875000003,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.63221875,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.61846875000003,"end":271.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.43159375,"end":274.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.24534375,"end":275.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.24096875000004,"end":278.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.73846875000004,"end":281.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.40909375,"end":280.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.82659375000003,"end":284.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.47596875,"end":289.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.90971875,"end":299.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.23034375000003,"end":292.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.14971875000003,"end":293.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.80721875,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.72596875,"end":319.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.73659375,"end":321.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.94284375,"end":321.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.16221875,"end":328.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.05221875,"end":323.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.58284375,"end":330.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.28721875,"end":333.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.49784375,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.93971875,"end":346.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.21721875000003,"end":360.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.12659375000004,"end":360.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.24034375,"end":363.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.68284375,"end":382.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.09346875,"end":393.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.19284375,"end":395.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.40784375000004,"end":439.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.47409375,"end":404.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.06346875,"end":442.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.76346875,"end":470.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.72534375000004,"end":444.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.71221875000003,"end":447.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.38784375000006,"end":489.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.54096875000005,"end":495.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.25721875000005,"end":501.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.85971875,"end":502.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.92284375,"end":503.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.09159375,"end":517.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.67784375,"end":505.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.35096875,"end":522.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.87346875,"end":534.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.7490937499999,"end":540.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.7565937500001,"end":542.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.25409375,"end":550.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.51034375,"end":552.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.26534375,"end":553.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.3328437499999,"end":568.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.2053437500001,"end":558.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.1497187500001,"end":563.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.9209687499999,"end":572.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.36346875,"end":582.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.34221875,"end":574.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.7922187500001,"end":586.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.43721875,"end":589.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.6728437500001,"end":591.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.90471875,"end":604.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.47846875,"end":594.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.3428437499999,"end":596.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.73409375,"end":603.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.97034375,"end":604.08846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.519,"end":4.401,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭祀法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭祀一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是"},{"start":30.299,"end":56.19,"text":"有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆"},{"start":57.33,"end":76.074,"text":"第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條的一個修正的精神當然就是說要"},{"start":76.634,"end":94.75,"text":"落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的一個精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權"},{"start":96.071,"end":119.221,"text":"因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第十一條第四款"},{"start":120.522,"end":129.189,"text":"被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格 即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好 就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會"},{"start":149.505,"end":167.041,"text":"這個是祭司懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係來移送"},{"start":167.661,"end":190.556,"text":"那麼依照目前技師法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了"},{"start":191.096,"end":199.466,"text":"所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位"},{"start":208.795,"end":219.722,"text":"是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然又有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足"},{"start":231.169,"end":247.83,"text":"可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的包括土木啊水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補足要有國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個"},{"start":249.671,"end":274.38,"text":"層次等級的不同可能就是一般的技術性的比如說工地的主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障"},{"start":276.537,"end":304.424,"text":"因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對 因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少"},{"start":304.864,"end":328.099,"text":"是 那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些"},{"start":330.28,"end":345.789,"text":"專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個"},{"start":347.43,"end":363.321,"text":"資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是"},{"start":364.982,"end":393.512,"text":"內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候啊有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何"},{"start":397.303,"end":416.293,"text":"這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用這個入資的產品或品牌啦"},{"start":416.673,"end":437.752,"text":"那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮約過程裡面你不能因為禮約事項去使用這些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機靈的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範"},{"start":440.077,"end":445.921,"text":"採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個"},{"start":469.299,"end":495.379,"text":"大陸監視器 貼牌 然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開耶所以這個部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全"},{"start":497.015,"end":521.797,"text":"報告委員就是說確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業"},{"start":522.877,"end":542.186,"text":"這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範"},{"start":543.868,"end":567.403,"text":"報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業主委是政委啊跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間"},{"start":569.028,"end":588.647,"text":"是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間"},{"start":592.058,"end":604.49,"text":"呃坦白講我這個資訊資訊這部分我也是外行啊那我不知道這個我容我我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好OK好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":276,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時9分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["陳委員素月：主委早安。今天委員會是在討論技師法第十一條條文修正草案，我們知道現在營造業大缺工，然後專業技師一樣很難找，因為最近本席跟營造業者針對陳情案在做討論的時候，他們有反映包括甲級、乙級、丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員，也就是專業的技師，可是這方面的人才真的非常難找。我們今天討論技師法第十一條條文的修正草案，這個草案事實上從第9屆到第10屆都有委員提出，但後來都沒有進行處理，因為屆期不連續，所以現在第11屆陳俊宇委員又再針對這一條提出修正草案，本席也有連署啦。關於這一條條文的修正精神，當然就是要落實聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神，當然這是一個主要的精神。不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個重要的部分，就是應該也是要保障專業技師的工作權。因為事實上剛剛林俊憲委員也有提到，有關技師被移送懲處的部分，也有可能或許會因為利害關係，或者是私人恩怨的部分，可能被檢舉、被移送，如果說他因為第十一條第四款被人家用這種理由，主張要撤銷他的技師資格的時候，他是不是沒有申訴的機會？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟你說明申訴的部分。"],["陳委員素月：就是說，如果用第四款是不是就會，如果因為現行條文的這種狀況被人家檢舉的話，是不是他就沒有一個申訴、補救的機會？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，這是技師懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方，通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師，他們的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業公會移送，不會由一個利害關係人來移送。依照目前技師法的規定，一旦這個利害關係人提出主張的話，基本上就已經進入到懲戒，他本身不能再進行訴願了，只能進行他有沒有懲戒事由的處理。我們也是覺得這樣對技師不盡公平啦，因為專業人士一旦進入被懲戒的程序，不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣，對他都已經是一個傷害了，所以我們也是認同委員的提案，這個利害關係人所提的一些訴求，要經過主管機關或者專業公會的篩選以後，是把移送權給主管機關跟專業單位。"],["陳委員素月：所以目前專業技師培訓不易，然後人才也是非常欠缺啦，因為根據營造業他們的反映，他們要去聘任一個專業的技師，真的也是非常的難找。當然剛剛也有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足，可是就這部分，我們應該沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧？就是說，專業的技師，包括土木、水力、測量，或者是建築師，這個部分不可能從國外移工來補足。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，要有國內的證照。"],["陳委員素月：對啊，所以這部分是……因為這是有一個層次、等級的不同嘛，可能就是一般技術性的，比如說，工地的主任，就是屬於比較管理階層的，或許可以，可是這種專業性的，我相信還是沒有辦法嘛，所以就這部分，我們也希望讓專業技師的工作權能夠得到比較妥善的保障。"],["陳主任委員金德：專業技師的確是很熱門啦，所以導致現在連公家機關相關的公務人員，比方說土木類的報到率都很低，因為全部都到……"],["陳委員素月：對，甚至有的人在公務機關服務個兩、三年，他就出去自己開業當建築師了，所以這種人才真的滿欠缺的。"],["陳主任委員金德：就是機關裡面的土木相關人才、相關的人也都非常缺少。"],["陳委員素月：我們也希望工程會就這部分可以有其他的妥善政策，針對這方面的人才，能夠來增加人才的培訓，這是另外一個問題啦。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們有跟考試院在商量考試的方式啦，還有就是在比較偏遠的地區，能夠有一些專設的，讓當地的人能夠有學習或培訓的機制啦，目前我們跟考試院也在商量相關的作法。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。","接下來，我要再關心一個議題，就是有關資安的問題，應該是在兩、三個禮拜前，本委員會在討論資通安全管理法修正草案有關資通安全產品問題的時候，資通安全管理法第十一條的內容是公務機關不得下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品，當時在討論這個條文的時候，有委員主張要把採購列進去，就是說公務機關不得採購、下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品，當時我們在討論的時候，數發部次長主張採購應該要回到採購法，不曉得主委您的看法如何？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，有關採購上的資安問題，目前是透過契約範本去規範，只要涉及國安或機敏性採購，原則上我們一律禁止採用陸資的產品或品牌。甚至目前我們也針對一些有關的AI，譬如說DeepSeek，我們也會要求廠商在履約的過程中，不能因為履約事項去使用這些AI，因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機敏的資訊，所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範。"],["陳委員素月：可是採購範本好像沒有辦法確實防範這樣的資安問題，因為中國的產品確實存在資安的疑慮，這是很明確的。我們從過去很多中國的產品，不管是監視器，或者氣炸鍋，或是掃地機器人，他們都可以植入後門，所以資安問題確實非常嚴重。包括剛剛魯明哲委員關心的，大陸監視器貼牌後就可以流入我們臺灣，對於這種狀況，我們應該真的要去想辦法，要確實有能力去防止，不然我覺得我們國家的資安真的是門戶大開。所以，就資安這部分，採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去落實資通安全？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，確實我們應就整個紅色供應鏈，包括人、物、資本要一起來看，目前確實比較散落在各處，我們目前內部也在研議，就整個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分，有一個比較系統性的法規化的作業，目前正在進行這樣的作業。"],["陳委員素月：是，這個跟我的想法不謀而合，我正要詢問，既然你提到了，這部分的研議多久時間可以完成？就是你們針對紅色供應鏈，不管是人、物等等，你們多久可以提出一個妥善的規範？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分，因為畢竟不是工程會的專業……"],["陳委員素月：但主委是政委，政委可以統籌啊。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：對，所以我們必須跟數發部有所溝通，所以這部分的時間比較不容易掌握，如果光我們自己的部分比較容易掌握，跟數發部的協商可能要有一點時間。"],["陳委員素月：是，主委，你也是政委，你應該要來督促這件事？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們會跟數發部或相關部會共同來研議，儘速完成剛才副主委所提的，比較系統性的防杜。"],["陳委員素月：是。好，那要儘速，不曉得主委可不可以給個時間？至少要給個時間才有壓力。"],["陳主任委員金德：坦白講，資訊這部分我也是外行，容我們跟數發部開過一次會之後，再跟委員報告，好不好？"],["陳委員素月：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162269","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162269","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56448b7de3026ec7f53cd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dc76d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"09:47:26 - 09:55:58","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:47:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:55:58+08:00","duration":512,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.16596875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.890968750000001,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.05034375,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.69096875,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.17034375,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.34721875,"end":33.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.86534375,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.28721875,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.87284375,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.13846875,"end":41.610968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.610968750000005,"end":41.627843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.150968750000004,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.977843750000005,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.08284375,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.28909375,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.929718750000006,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.53471875000001,"end":77.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.89221875,"end":87.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.18596875,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.21096875,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.79721875,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.73346875,"end":95.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.71221875,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.58471875000001,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.23409375,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.58409375000001,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.84909375000001,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.45659375000001,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.77284375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.79784375000001,"end":120.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.24409375,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.64471875000001,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.19971875000002,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.03471875,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.40596875,"end":141.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.30409375000002,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.49784375000002,"end":147.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.19346875000002,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.96471875,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.84596875,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.24659375000002,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.14096875,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.71034375000002,"end":162.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.44846875000002,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.93721875,"end":172.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.91096875000002,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.37909375,"end":175.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.52659375000002,"end":178.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.36159375,"end":181.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.33159375000002,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.91784375,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.00596875000002,"end":190.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.93784375,"end":191.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.39346875,"end":193.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.43534375000002,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.02159375000002,"end":197.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.27846875,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.64534375000002,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.43409375000002,"end":204.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.96096875,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.85471875000002,"end":212.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.44909375,"end":214.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.52909375000002,"end":215.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.92971875,"end":218.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.34284375000001,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.92909375000002,"end":220.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.66721875000002,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.78909375,"end":225.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.10096875000002,"end":227.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.86034375000003,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.05346875,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.58909375000002,"end":236.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.88846875000002,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.02346875,"end":237.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.05721875,"end":237.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.14159375000003,"end":237.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.15846875000003,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.17534375000002,"end":237.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.91346875000002,"end":242.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.10284375,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.55846875,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.88721875000002,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.21971875000003,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.31659375,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.69096875,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.92284375,"end":261.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.20534375,"end":265.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.93034375,"end":267.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.80346875000004,"end":270.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.58784375,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.18659375000004,"end":276.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.91596875,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.64034375,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.39096875,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.42471875,"end":289.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.50471875,"end":306.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.55409375,"end":297.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.29534375000003,"end":306.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.67909375,"end":307.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.96596875,"end":309.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.85596875000005,"end":313.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.32784375,"end":316.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.29784375,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.54221875,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.28034375000004,"end":323.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.74409375000005,"end":325.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.05596875000003,"end":326.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.15284375000005,"end":330.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.99596875000003,"end":337.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.00346875,"end":341.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.44596875,"end":341.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.82971875000004,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.29346875000005,"end":345.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.59284375000004,"end":348.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.69784375,"end":350.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.03096875,"end":354.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.50284375,"end":355.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.58284375,"end":358.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.84409375,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.16034375000004,"end":360.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.79721875,"end":362.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.04596875000004,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.58159375,"end":365.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.58971875000003,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.22659375,"end":369.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.74096875000004,"end":373.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.45346875,"end":378.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.73534375,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.80659375000005,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.39284375,"end":385.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.56971875000005,"end":389.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.84346875,"end":390.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.66596875000005,"end":392.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.42096875000004,"end":394.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.75409375000004,"end":397.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.34846875000005,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.51596875,"end":413.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.80596875000003,"end":417.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.51409375000003,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.20034375,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.87534375,"end":430.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.02284375000005,"end":431.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.16596875000005,"end":444.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.94034375,"end":452.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.09096875,"end":463.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.46909375,"end":467.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.02534375000005,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.03346875000005,"end":477.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.00284375,"end":478.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.50471875000005,"end":478.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.70721875000004,"end":480.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.80846875000003,"end":479.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.58034375000005,"end":480.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.59721875,"end":480.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.79971875,"end":484.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.17034375000003,"end":487.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.92096875000004,"end":488.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.32596875,"end":498.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.00409375000004,"end":496.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.40909375,"end":496.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.12596875,"end":508.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.57596875,"end":508.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.60971875,"end":508.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.82909375,"end":509.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.63909375000003,"end":509.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.95971875000004,"end":510.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.73596875000004,"end":511.91721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.205,"end":5.907,"text":"感謝主席 本席邀請我們工程會陳金德 陳主委請主委委員長主委好 主委你剛剛有提到就是因為北捷這個特休小偷的事件你剛剛有說到工程會要對於所頒布的採購契約範本"},{"start":26.209,"end":52.744,"text":"要把它調回剛性讓採購機關執行的採購機關能夠遵循是不是應該這樣子這要修正政府採購法明定這個契約範本是機關必須遵循第一個其實由這個個案但實際上它是普遍存在這種狀況就我們工程會頒布的採購契約範本那實際上執行採購的單位很多都沒有依照這個來"},{"start":54.165,"end":69.579,"text":"甚至有很多是違反了這種採購報告就影響到勞權影響到勞工的權益這案件非常多其實北捷的案件2018年早在2018年監察院就提出了調查報告"},{"start":70.78,"end":81.846,"text":"說北捷啊他利用他集團下面的公司輪流承攬這種清潔的標案但是勞工如果留任那他的年資兩年一標換個公司換個老闆年資歸零這種狀況2018年"},{"start":88.423,"end":102.902,"text":"監察院就提出報告然後呢我們再來看看一直拖拖拖拖到最近啊爆發出來了那北捷才承認然後他要回歸到我們政府所頒布的勞動這種契約的一個範本"},{"start":104.469,"end":119.346,"text":"那過去啦就是說你北捷沒有依照工程會所訂的勞務採購區的範本啦那這個狀況其實所在都有啦那通常都是由各採購單位他自己有一個所謂的採購機油小組"},{"start":121.314,"end":136.128,"text":"在集合他的各項採購有沒有合法啦有沒有違反人權啊違反勞權等等那實際上因為這種集合小組都是機關就採購單位自己組的啦球員兼裁判啊"},{"start":139.516,"end":158.647,"text":"你工程會是有你工程會的 但是他本身也有一個集合小組嘛他不可能去抓自己的啦 我覺得那個都虛設的啦你等於自己的集合小組很少會抓到自己的一個狀況啦否則你看北捷這個2018年存在到現在 抓不出來所以我們政府呢"},{"start":163.49,"end":189.428,"text":"你剛提到要把它轉為剛性啦 應該是按照採購法第63條啦各類的採購契約應該以採用主管機關訂定的範本為原則對 你訂的是原則嘛所以他很多他就不遵守啊所以基本上他並沒有一個強制力啦那實際上啊這一點啦 你轉為剛性啦 主委你是有道理的啦因為我們採用一個法院判決的範本"},{"start":191.55,"end":218.838,"text":"法院的一個民事裁決範本它就明定啦機關你要有正當的合理性還有一個理由以及必要性你才可以例外的不採用契約範本實際上法院已經做出有利於你工程會就是主委你剛講的你要轉回剛性的過去就有這樣的一個判例啦換言之也有說啦你一個機關喔你若沒有提出正當的理由還要被要請"},{"start":219.983,"end":237.585,"text":"你一定要按照主管機關就是我們工程會頒布的契約範本所以你說要把它調整現在也來得及啦我認為這種狀況不會只有北捷一個個案應該是存在很多有這種狀況的主委您的看法"},{"start":239.219,"end":257.144,"text":"因為不只是這個案例其他相關的這個採購跟採購對象之間是否有公平或要求這個得票廠商多做其他事情的要求等等存在很多很多個這個"},{"start":258.732,"end":286.235,"text":"不適合這個採購的這些樣態都會透過我們將來修訂這個採購的這個企業換本改為剛性之後呢那希望所有機關就遵循工程會頒布的企業換本來做這個採購的行為就是除非你有事先提出特別的理由以及必要性是有以外 否則就應該要按照我們的企業換本是不是這個意思嗎"},{"start":290.443,"end":313.013,"text":"我們目前修正的方向就如委員剛剛的指示但是我們當然會例外因為有些特殊的採購確實嘛所以原則上我們要求他要報到上級機關來核准他才能例外不採用好 謝謝主委另外我們最近在討論那個祭司法的修動草案"},{"start":314.92,"end":341.736,"text":"為什麼要提祭司法修正草案呢我們來看一下 最近幾年各類的祭司被移送懲戒的人數統計大概有50件後來有做出懲戒處分的大概有30個人受懲戒處分的比例是60%左右實際上大概移送案件有4成都是"},{"start":342.878,"end":369.313,"text":"等於說都沒有達成懲戒的必要那為什麼會有那麼多的懲戒案件呢我認為我們祭司法有一個必須要修正的地方就是現在是由利害關係人他可以引用法條尤其是第19條他只要有那些行為他就可以直接把祭司給移送了"},{"start":370.782,"end":388.827,"text":"那其中啊 我看案件最多的都是鑑定的 技術版鑑定喔 這可能是有時候一般普遍的業務啦那有時你辦鑑定一定會有一個 兩個對照嘛 或者是說 我業壓關係 我覺得你的鑑定對我不利"},{"start":389.895,"end":417.031,"text":"他如果不滿他如果就可以引用這個計時法裡面的條文就把你給移送懲戒所以造成你看最後符合懲戒的比例其實六成其實很低表示有四成案件是根本不需要的那我們現在應該要在移送懲戒就關係人就是說你即使在被移送懲戒之前應該要有一個初步篩檢的一個機制"},{"start":419.091,"end":426.981,"text":"所謂的出塞的機制那到底這個技師有沒有違反相關法律規定才必要達到移送懲戒"},{"start":428.981,"end":452.016,"text":"那這個修法方向主委你要幹嘛因為非常正確那我們目前修法方向是說希望透過主管機關縣市或這個直轄市主管機關或者是他那個工會工會如果來審核之後由工會來移送那這樣會篩掉很多是利害關係人之間的"},{"start":453.997,"end":479.569,"text":"糾紛然後利用這個提起懲戒來做這個必要的要求所以我們目前會這個祭司法是朝這個方向來修正那如果主委認同的話那為什麼我們工程會沒有自己的版本行政院沒有院本送出來因為是5月20號才送到行政院那這個版本大概大概是兩年前就有提到上一屆就有提到那因為屆期不連續"},{"start":480.91,"end":487.144,"text":"所以現在我們這一屆的立法院現在也有很多立委在關心這個事情"},{"start":488.33,"end":511.705,"text":"那我覺得應該要有願本我們5月20送到行政會竣訴不過我們相對跟委員提案的條文內容大同小異所以我們今天有提出工程會的主張那稍微有修正部分委員的提案那方向都是一致的好那我們應該就往這個方向來努力好不好好 謝謝主委好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（9時47分）感謝主席，本席邀請工程會陳金德主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：主委好。因為北捷這個特休小偷的事件，你剛有說工程會要把所頒布的採購契約範本調為剛性，讓執行的採購機關能夠遵循，是不是應該這樣子？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們要修正政府採購法，明定契約範本是機關必須遵循。"],["林委員俊憲：第一個，其實這個個案實際上是普遍存在的狀況，就工程會頒布的採購契約範本，實際上執行採購的單位很多都沒有依照辦理，甚至有很多是違反採購法，就會影響到勞工的權益，這種案件非常多。其實北捷的案件，早在2018年監察院就提出調查報告，說北捷利用集團下面的公司，輪流承攬清潔的標案，這是兩年一標，換個公司、換個老闆，但是如果勞工留任，他的年資歸零，有這種狀況，在2018年監察院就提出報告了。但一直拖拖拖，拖到最近爆發出來，北捷才承認，然後才回歸到政府所頒布的勞務契約範本，過去北捷沒有依照工程會所訂的勞務採購契約範本，這個狀況其實所在多有，通常都是由各採購單位自己有一個所謂的採購稽核小組，在稽核各項採購有沒有合法、有沒有違反人權、違反勞權等等。實際上，因為這種稽核小組都是機關採購單位自己組的，球員兼裁判。工程會是有工程會的，機關本身也有一個稽核小組，但他們不可能去抓自己的問題，我覺得那個都虛設的，單位自己的稽核小組，很少會抓到自己的狀況，否則，北捷的狀況從2018年存在到現在都抓不出來。你剛剛提到要把它轉為剛性，應該是按照採購法第六十三條，各類的採購契約應該採用主管機關訂定的範本為原則。"],["陳主任委員金德：這會新增。"],["林委員俊憲：對！你訂的是原則，所以很多他就不遵守啊！基本上，它並沒有強制力。實際上，這一點你轉為剛性，主委，你是有道理的，法院的一個民事裁決就明定機關要有正當合理之事由以及必要性，才可以例外不採用契約範本，實際上，法院已經做出有利於工程會的判決，就主委剛剛講的，你要轉為剛性的規定，過去就有這樣的判例，機關如果沒有提出正當理由跟必要性，一定要按照主管機關工程會頒布的契約範本，所以你說要把它調整，現在來得及啦！我認為這種狀況不會只有北捷一個個案，應該很多都存在這種狀況。主委，你的看法呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為不只是這個案例，其他相關的採購跟採購對象之間是否有公平或要求得標廠商多做其他事情等等，存在很多不適合的採購樣態，都會透過我們將來修訂採購法的契約範本，改為剛性之後，希望所有機關就遵循工程會頒布的契約範本來進行採購行為。"],["林委員俊憲：對，除非你有事先提出特別的理由以及必要性以外，否則就應該要按照契約範本，是不是這個意思？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，我們目前修正的方向，就如委員剛剛的指示，但是我們當然會有例外，因為確實有些特殊的採購，所以原則上，我們會要求他要報到上級機關核准，才能例外不採用。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委。另外，我們最近在討論技師法的修正草案，為什麼要提技師法的修正草案呢？我們來看一下，最近幾年各類技師被移送懲戒的人數統計大概有50件，後來有做出懲戒處分的大概有30個人，受懲戒處分的比例是60%左右，實際上大概移送案件有四成等於是沒有懲戒的必要，為什麼會有那麼多的懲戒案件呢？我認為技師法有一個必須要修正的地方，現在是由利害關係人可以引用法條，尤其是第十九條，他只要有那些行為，就可以直接把技師移送。其中，我看案件最多的都是鑑定，技師在辦理鑑定可能是很普遍的業務，辦鑑定一定會有兩個對造，或者是利害關係人覺得你的鑑定對我不利，如果他不滿，就可以引用技師法裡面的條文把你移送懲戒，造成最後符合懲戒的比例很低，六成其實很低，表示有四成案件是根本不需要的。在技師被移送懲戒之前，應該要有一個初步篩檢機制，即所謂的初篩機制，到底這個技師有沒有違反相關法律規定而有必要達到移送懲戒？對這個修法方向，主委的看法呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個非常正確。我們目前修法方向是希望透過縣市或直轄市主管機關，或者是他們的公會，如果公會來審核之後，由公會來移送，這樣會篩掉很多利害關係人之間的糾紛，然後利用提起懲戒來做必要的要求，所以我們目前技師法是朝這個方向來修正。"],["林委員俊憲：如果主委也認同的話，為什麼工程會沒有自己的版本呢？行政院沒有送院版出來呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為是5月20日才送到行政院，這個版本大概是兩年前就有提到。"],["林委員俊憲：上一屆就有提到。"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["林委員俊憲：因為屆期不連續，我們這屆立法院現在也有很多立委在關心這個事情，我覺得應該要有院版。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們5月20日送到行政院會儘速，不過相對我們跟委員提案的條文內容大同小異，所以我們今天有提出工程會的主張，稍微有修正部分委員的提案，方向都是一致的。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那我們就往這個方向來努力，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162268","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564de1ca2e07bd27f78cd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dc48bf7fb5696d4c0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:37:24 - 09:47:07","影片長度":"00:09:43","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:37:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:47:07+08:00","duration":583,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.695968750000002,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.293468750000002,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.15596875000001,"end":118.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.16846875,"end":123.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.97784375,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.31784375,"end":135.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.05034375,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.50221875,"end":177.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.97784375,"end":183.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.47909375,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.20721875,"end":195.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.59096875,"end":196.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.75971875000002,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.45784375000002,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.58909375,"end":284.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.40846875,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.37596875,"end":304.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.25346875,"end":308.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.80971875,"end":322.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.66409375,"end":323.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.16596875000005,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.07784375,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.60909375,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.62596875,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.44846875,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.22221875,"end":423.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.64409375,"end":442.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.94909375000003,"end":451.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.43721875000006,"end":464.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.85284375000003,"end":468.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.63284375,"end":485.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.53721875,"end":491.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.19034375,"end":492.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.11846875000003,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.03159375,"end":509.20034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.20034375000006,"end":509.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.01034375000006,"end":510.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.02721875000003,"end":514.2122187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.41471875,"end":535.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.63096875,"end":536.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.89221875,"end":543.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.4397187500001,"end":580.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.1428437500001,"end":580.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.91909375,"end":582.16784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.187,"end":4.312,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑召委請一下陳主委請主委"},{"start":10.974,"end":39.195,"text":"主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題"},{"start":40.296,"end":55.574,"text":"那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2"},{"start":57.556,"end":72.348,"text":"資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上"},{"start":74.269,"end":96.111,"text":"那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等"},{"start":97.552,"end":116.568,"text":"那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我只認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":118.331,"end":145.846,"text":"報告委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞"},{"start":146.786,"end":163.59,"text":"這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":170.643,"end":199.52,"text":"剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止治安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議"},{"start":200,"end":226.327,"text":"第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員"},{"start":228.328,"end":254.442,"text":"他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了"},{"start":255.442,"end":283.471,"text":"那另外的部分 我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業 勞動環境 保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會 一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中"},{"start":284.691,"end":292.379,"text":"製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年"},{"start":303.45,"end":320.336,"text":"台灣是將近七成 67.3% 韓國53%英國45% 日本41% 新加坡28%其實在2018年的時候 新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範 現在已經下降到28.6%"},{"start":324.232,"end":349.711,"text":"我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60% 70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高 對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下"},{"start":350.686,"end":377.84,"text":"委員如果是職業安全的部分但目的是因為主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個"},{"start":379.502,"end":403.841,"text":"部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以依此來督導這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職在於是公共工程這部分"},{"start":404.662,"end":421.046,"text":"有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件"},{"start":423.854,"end":450.707,"text":"那到2024年 職災的件數也沒有減少 也是32件死亡32人 受傷2人 沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失 遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善 主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型"},{"start":451.513,"end":463.821,"text":"就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊"},{"start":464.949,"end":491.12,"text":"最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善"},{"start":492.25,"end":507.724,"text":"能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下"},{"start":510.066,"end":511.247,"text":"我們都非常明確啦 主委"},{"start":536.986,"end":562.345,"text":"我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山"},{"start":563.526,"end":579.544,"text":"這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時37分）謝謝許智傑召委，請一下陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["李委員昆澤：主委好。我想主委也很清楚，我國是資安被攻擊的中心，是全球最嚴重的一個地方，不管是資料被竊取或者是資安被入侵攻擊，其實是持續的增加，對於公共採購來說，相關的資安保護也逐漸成為一個重要的議題。2024年數發部的國家資通安全情勢報告顯示，我們面臨資安威脅的統計，不管是民間或是政府機關，在資訊蒐集部分是43.2%，資訊的蒐集主要是他們用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府資訊，另外，入侵攻擊跟入侵嘗試是高達36%以上，入侵攻擊或者是入侵嘗試主要是針對系統進行入侵或者是攻擊，來竊取、獲得非法的資訊，或者是破壞、竊取等等，利用取得非法的權限來獲得相關的資訊。","政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存，或是民間人民個資的保護，都是重要的議題，我一直認為我們政府部門的公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護，工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎？來說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，關於資安的部分，工程會跟數發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊（服務）採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表，這個在112年9月25日已經公布，協助機關落實採購資安。接著，我們會把這個一覽表納為採購契約範本，納入採購契約範本之後，可以指引機關作為採購資安工作，避免發生漏洞。"],["李委員昆澤：在2023年的時候我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善作為，剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況。設計新的契約範本，進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題，這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我剛才也有說明，將來我們希望這個契約範本是剛性的，過去機關是將契約範本作為原則參考，這個剛性範本修正之後，數發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入契約範本裡面，所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後，所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表，來做防止資安的問題。"],["李委員昆澤：這也是我對工程會相關的建議，第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式開發合約範本，這也是軟體開發中常見的一種合約形式，就是要確保合約在固定的時間、固定的成本之下來進行，但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性。長期來說，我認為工程會要跟數位部合作，針對採購人員的資安專業跟技能要進行培訓，尤其是在地方政府及偏鄉地區，這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少，因為你知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務，對他們來說，他們認為資安的保護是比較不重要的一環，這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導。","另外，我們還是來討論一下職災的部分，我國製造業勞動環境保障是普遍不足，過去我在交通委員會也一再質詢，公共工程委員會針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範，我們看到重大職業災害之中，製造業始終是占多數，而且是持續的上升，2017年有43.5%，2024年升到51.7%。其實勞動部有統計各國營造業墜落致死的比例，2022年臺灣是將近七成、67.3%，韓國53%，英國45%，日本41%，新加坡28%，其實在2018年的時候新加坡也有將近50%，但他們努力去規範，現在已經下降到28.6%。但我們臺灣這麼多年墜落致死的比例都一直偏高，在60%、70%，對勞工的保障實在是不足，我現在要請教主委，我們營造業普遍存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況，這個部分的作為請主委說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果是職業安全的部分，目的事業主管機關他們會經常性的去查核，工程會會針對公共工程，在查核的時候，職業安全作業環境也是列為重要的查核項目之一。除此之外，如果這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安事故，比方說致死，如果這個採購機關曾經得到金質獎，那有可能連金質獎都要收回，甚至它將來在採購另外一個案子的時候，在評分裡面會列為嚴重扣分，以此來督導公共工程。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，這些相關的作為我也清楚，公共工程委員會針對勞工職災，尤其是公共工程這部分有在努力，但是我要不客氣的跟你說，真的是沒有明顯的改善。我們來看，2020年職災的件數32件、死亡35人、受傷4人，工程查核中發現缺失遭扣點的232件；到2024年，職災的件數也沒有減少，也是32件、死亡32人、受傷2人，沒有明顯的改善，工程查核中發現缺失遭到扣點的171件，也沒有明顯改善，主委，我必須要明確提醒你。","我們營造業的勞動環境保障普遍不足，其實我們要考量公共工程的類型，它多數都是交通建設、環境或是進行各種管線的建設，這是重大職災之中最具危險性的營建類型。工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規，作為表率，保護勞工的安全，其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的問題，未來要如何進行改善，剛才你有說初步的作為，但是沒有明顯改善啊！能有更強而有力的政策推動，尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下，這種翻滾、跌落的死傷有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬，請簡單說明一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們會遵照委員的意見，跟勞動部來進行檢討，或者是我們本身內部的查核機制，看要不要針對特定的廠商比較密集查核，或者是扣分的分數要提高，我們再檢討內部的作業，希望職災致死的比例能夠降低，我們內部會檢討。"],["李委員昆澤：這都非常明確，主委，我們看到從2020年到2024年沒有明顯改善，跟社會大眾說明你們有相關的作為，這是毫無說服力的，因為沒有成績，因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來，對於勞工的安全，你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的經濟靠山，主委必須強力地督促公共工程委員會，針對公共工程勞工職業安全環境的基本保障，必須要加強地監督跟落實，以後我會再跟陳主委進行相關的討論。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們來改善。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564ff13f7cf3b690769cd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dc672f50a45871b9275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:25:50 - 09:37:09","影片長度":"00:11:19","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:25:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:37:09+08:00","duration":679,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.83659375,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9672187500000002,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.03471875,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.06846875,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.49034375,"end":4.097843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.970343750000001,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.282218750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.05409375,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.024093750000002,"end":18.340343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.72846875,"end":19.825343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.65221875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.14971875,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.76534375,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.39784375,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.23721875,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.47284375,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.565343750000004,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.69159375,"end":42.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.28159375,"end":50.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.58409375,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.212218750000005,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.84909375,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.94159375,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.143468750000004,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.08409375000001,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.34971875000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.39971875,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.49221875,"end":83.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.81534375000001,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.84034375,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.40284375,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.46159375,"end":111.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.28346875000001,"end":120.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.85596875,"end":142.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.87346875,"end":152.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.22221875,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.03159375,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.20909375000002,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.45534375000003,"end":236.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.66909375,"end":247.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.82346875000002,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.48346875000004,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.00909375000003,"end":307.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.45971875000004,"end":307.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.81409375000004,"end":308.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.40034375000005,"end":332.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.60784375000003,"end":334.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.51471875000004,"end":333.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.81846875,"end":335.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.05034375,"end":343.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.11659375000005,"end":345.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.42846875000004,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.23846875000004,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.45034375,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.44096875,"end":421.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.00721875000005,"end":423.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.21784375000004,"end":427.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.77409375,"end":432.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.02659375,"end":479.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.82096875,"end":499.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.58159375,"end":505.82534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.16284375000004,"end":508.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.28471875,"end":509.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.28034375000004,"end":510.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.64721875000004,"end":514.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.0390937500001,"end":522.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.70034375,"end":526.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.48034375,"end":530.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.00284375,"end":544.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.8403437500001,"end":550.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.79721875,"end":575.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.73409375,"end":585.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.6103437500001,"end":588.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.08659375,"end":598.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.6884687500001,"end":602.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.99159375,"end":607.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.8684687500001,"end":608.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.89784375,"end":611.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.27284375,"end":615.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.8334687500001,"end":633.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.2959687499999,"end":626.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.4678437499999,"end":633.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.51846875,"end":633.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.8728437500001,"end":633.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.9740937500001,"end":661.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.05409375,"end":678.0347187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":3.91,"text":"主席我請陳金德主委請主委主委早我想當然還沒有執行以前我特別提一個良心話我今天看到報紙也就是宜蘭險情"},{"start":25.816,"end":50.412,"text":"在我的看法因為我把你當成除了是一個監督單位主管之外我是把你當成好朋友所以我是覺得這樣啊報紙看完以後一喜則一憂一喜就是我們敬重的陳主委在整個宜蘭險情方面少一個勁敵那一憂啊就覺得"},{"start":55.373,"end":69.312,"text":"奇怪了民進黨的過去的官員都是這樣這個就是意義有的但是我還是要勉勵陳主委從你在工程會跟過去的表現"},{"start":70.475,"end":84.374,"text":"我對你是有信心啦那所以雖然這跟今天主題無關但是多少是跟感情有關所以我還要祈勉你再接再厲但是千萬千萬"},{"start":86.296,"end":111.569,"text":"當一天和尚敲一天鐘我也相信你兩位副主委是很強但是不要忘了你現在就是政務委員你現在就是工程會的主任委員因為一向我對工程會期待很高的我對工程會的寄望我是希望的我到處從當立委以後我都替你們叫屈"},{"start":112.429,"end":130.458,"text":"也就是在你們組織法過程當中我都替你們伸冤為什麼因為公共工程太多了陳天德跟工程會不能缺少的所以基本上我是蠻支持工程會的所以但是我還要祈勉陳主委"},{"start":131.938,"end":142.262,"text":"雖然機會真大但是不要忘了當一天和尚敲一天鐘工程會的事該做的一定要做我想主委你同意我這種說法吧謝謝委員的勉勵不過就我個人的生涯規劃我是"},{"start":153.291,"end":181.51,"text":"準備在工程會做滿四年好啦好啦這個反正光化跟真心話這個我會不會去計較啦但是我還是要其免當然因為我對你的行事風格跟做事情的這些貫徹我還是蠻期待的啦主委所以工程會該做的還是要做好那我現在還是回歸主題啦也就是碳排這個問題"},{"start":183.271,"end":207.243,"text":"碳排這個問題當然啦主管機關是環境部但是我們是工程單位的一個制定合約一個機關可是現在民主社會合約是非常重要所以我為什麼一開始非常支持你們單位就是這樣有統一的規劃合約總比"},{"start":210.345,"end":225.604,"text":"沒有好啦好 沒有好你知道為什麼過去公共工程在整個合約部分會有一點雜亂可是經過你們啊把它統合以外現在已經把雜亂縮短到"},{"start":228.074,"end":246.902,"text":"極端的少了所以我還是期待啦就是碳排這個問題我們要未雨綢繆可是現在啊這個網路雖有啊但是內容空洞就會變成了文池館的意味所以主委"},{"start":247.862,"end":262.561,"text":"我是要拜託你 碳排未來是一個歧視所以在整個網路的這些你要開始為以籌謀 先有一個規劃那我相信在整個廠商"},{"start":263.562,"end":290.324,"text":"未來他在整個登錄方面他會有習慣性所以我建議現在應該要有假設性的這些操作不要說白在那裡不要說未來事情發生的你才來做這個事所以我還是期許工程會是主管整個合約裡面的主要的規範單位所以我還是希望針對這個"},{"start":292.205,"end":307.313,"text":"碳排的問題要稍微磨練那個演練一下以後大家會駕輕就熟所以主委你針對本席對於這些的建言你的看法是如何"},{"start":307.873,"end":329.4,"text":"建議委員這個意見非常好那我們陸續在建制的相關的包括碳排氣數的建立或者是範本等等我們會要求我們處裡面來根據委員的建立來試操作就一段時間試著操作才能夠發現哪些操作是"},{"start":330.7,"end":341.484,"text":"比較順的有些操作是不可能順的所以我們就用模擬的方式去做這種操作那未來廠商你們規劃出來一我們單位會鎖洗二"},{"start":346.506,"end":365.778,"text":"這些廠商會更熟悉如果是做到這樣就不會以現在情況我們只有設有這些網路設有這些機制但是你現在沒有啊所以它無法無法去做到盡善盡美這個部分"},{"start":366.238,"end":392.398,"text":"所以雖然啊因為你們已經有做這些網路已經在準備運作但是我認為啊效果是不髒的因為沒有演練就不會有熟悉所以我也希望啊這個理副主委應該要因為主委會比較忙這個你要去專責啊去做這些演練你一回聲二回首你之後擺在那邊等到事情發生了以後再來做我認為這個"},{"start":394.74,"end":423.063,"text":"嚴目求疑所以這些東西啊就會變成你們不熟悉然後廠商也不熟悉所以這個部分我是蠻建議主委督促之下副主委要去把它執行好那另外一個就是這些資訊公開真的要很重要啦好不好所以主委這是我我還蠻期待的好那接下來我還是特別啊要跟主委"},{"start":424.559,"end":428.686,"text":"談一些我非常重視的這些勞務的這些採購的規範"},{"start":433.069,"end":456.226,"text":"我非常重視不管是公安也好不管是勞工他的權利也好甚至於說我一直每一次執行我都擔心你在這裡忘記所以我不斷的提醒也就是勞工薪資的部分不能沒有勞工的權益也不能剝奪這是我希望你們在整個"},{"start":458.228,"end":478.789,"text":"規範裡面要把它寫得清清楚楚也就是不以違反勞工有關權利跟薪資基金的問題如果是這樣你們要用最嚴厲的方式不管是這些計分啊或者不准投標啊這等等東西廠商沒有什麼"},{"start":479.95,"end":498.17,"text":"不怕花錢但是怕的就是他不能去招標所以這點你要抓住廠商的弱點所以你要招標我也不要刻意去找你麻煩但是最起碼的話你一定廠商最怕的就是喪失招標資格"},{"start":499.691,"end":508.48,"text":"上司燒他這個所以這點我要建議主委就像現在今天這個北捷人家在抗議耶來 下張圖片你看 對不對他們為什麼這樣因為他的權力剝奪啦"},{"start":515.237,"end":543.179,"text":"但是我們只有去歸換一部分但是他的權益我們沒有放下去所以主委因為我每一次你可以去發現我對你的建言就是勞工的部分公安的部分權力的部分薪資的部分我非常重視所以像北捷這個問題我不曉得主委你看過以後你有因為我要強調就是說"},{"start":545,"end":564.52,"text":"他們特休只要做他們的工程不能特休這個就剝奪他的權利啊所以主委你看完這些他們的抗議你有什麼感想那想在工程會在這裡同不同意把這些也列入進去我也知道陳副主委跟你多有氣"},{"start":565.541,"end":575.768,"text":"委員建議的各項你們在六月份以前都會提到行政院去那我也希望這個部分也把它納進去所以主委你有什麼看法"},{"start":577.129,"end":598.035,"text":"這個是採購單位並沒有依照工程會2019年修正的勞務採購企業範本的這個規定來納入那我目前修正了政務採購法會將類似的企業範本修正成剛性的企業範本"},{"start":598.795,"end":614.453,"text":"那剛性的企業換本之後各採購機關他就必須遵行工程會的企業換本我們會在企業換本裡面要求各比方說這個相關的勞務在勞務採購裡面的所有人他必須薪資要"},{"start":616.675,"end":632.827,"text":"最低薪的1.1倍以上甚至更高的時候我們有利於他將來在進行其他標案採購的時候會有加分的機制這個也是一種社會企業責任有鼓勵有懲罰那我們會修正成剛性的企業範圍"},{"start":634.488,"end":661.202,"text":"這樣的話對勞工才會有所幫助啦就像他現在其他他薪水他都有公安他都有重視但是勞工的權利他就負累啦因為我們沒有寫清楚所以要拜託城府主委在這個部分因為你們都寫法律的你們都比我們還懂但是我們發現問題提供給你我相信你們也會把他納進去這樣的話也就是統一換本他就"},{"start":662.142,"end":677.008,"text":"無法去逃避啦所以這樣的話我認為對於整個勞工對於合約的完整性會更圓滿更完整這樣好不好好所以拜託陳主委拜託陳副主委一下好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時25分）謝謝主席，我請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早！"],["林委員國成：主委早！還沒有質詢以前我特別提一個良心話。我今天看到報紙，也就是宜蘭的選情，在我的看法，因為我除了把你當成是一個監督的單位主管之外，還把你當成好朋友，所以我是覺得看完報紙以後，一則以喜，一則以憂。一喜就是我們敬重的陳主委在整個宜蘭選情方面少一個勁敵，一憂就是覺得奇怪，民進黨過去的官員都是這樣，這個是一憂的。","我還是要勉勵陳主委，從你在工程會及過去的表現，我對你是有信心，雖然這跟今天的主題無關，但是多少跟感情有關，所以我還要期勉你再接再厲！但是千萬、千萬當一天和尚敲一天鐘，我也相信你的兩位副主委很強，但是不要忘了，你現在就是政務委員，你現在就是工程會的主任委員。","我一向對工程會期待很高的，我對工程會是寄望的，我從當立委以後，都到處替你們叫屈，也就是在你們組織法的修法過程當中，我都替你們申冤，為什麼？因為公共工程太多了，陳金德和工程會都不能缺少，所以基本上我是蠻支持工程會的。我還要期勉陳主委，雖然機會增大，但是不要忘了當一天和尚敲一天鐘，工程會的事，該做的一定要做。主委，你同意我這種說法吧！"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員的勉勵，不過就我個人的生涯規劃，我是準備在工程會做滿4年。"],["林委員國成：好啦！反正官話或真心話，我都不會去計較，但是我還是要期勉，因為我對你的行事風格及做事情的貫徹還是蠻期待的，主委，所以工程會該做的還是要做。","我現在還是回歸主題，也就是碳排這個問題，碳排這個問題當然主管機關是環境部，但是你們是一個制訂工程合約規範的機關，現在民主社會合約是非常重要，所以我為什麼一開始就非常支持你們單位就是這樣，有規劃統一的合約，總比沒有好。過去公共工程在整個合約部分有一點雜亂，可是經過你們統合以後，現在已經把雜亂縮到極端的少了，所以我還是期待針對碳排這個問題你們要未雨綢繆。現在相關的網路雖有，但是內容空洞，就會變成蚊子館的意味，主委，所以我是要跟你拜託，未來碳排是一個趨勢，所以在整個網路的部分，你要開始未雨綢繆，先有一個規劃，我相信未來廠商在整個登錄方面會有習慣性，所以我建議現在應該要有假設性的這些操作，不要只有擺在那裡，不要未來事情發生了，你才來做這個事。工程會是主管整個合約規範的主要單位，我還是希望針對這個碳排的問題你們要稍微演練一下，以後大家會駕輕就熟。主委，針對本席對於這些的建言，你的看法是如何？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，這個意見非常好。現在我們陸續在建置相關的，包括碳排係數或者是範本等等，我們會要求處裡面根據委員的建議來試著操作，就一段時間試著操作，才能夠發現哪些操作是比較順的，哪些操作是不可行的……"],["林委員國成：對啦！一回生二回熟，所以……"],["陳主任委員金德：對，我們試著操作一段時間之後……"],["林委員國成：所以我們就用模擬的方式去做這種操作。未來你們規劃出來，一、我們單位會熟悉，二、這些廠商會更熟悉。現在的情況是你們只是設有這些網路、設有這些機制，但是沒有演練，所以這個部分無法做到盡善盡美，雖然你們已經有做這些網路、已經在準備運作，但是我認為效果是不彰的，因為沒有演練，就不會熟悉，所以我希望李副主委應該要專責去做這些演練，因為主委會比較忙。一回生二回熟，只是擺在那邊，等到事情發生以後再來做，我認為這個是緣木求魚，這些東西就會變成你們不熟悉，廠商也不熟悉，所以這個部分我是滿建議在主委的督促之下，副主委要去執行好。另外一個，這些資訊公開真的很重要，好不好？主委，這是我還滿期待的。","接下來我還是要特別跟主委談我非常重視的勞務採購規範，我非常重視，不管是工安也好，不管是勞工的權利也好，甚至於我每次質詢，都擔心你在這裡忘記，所以我不斷的提醒，也就是勞工薪資的部分不能沒有、勞工的權益也不能剝奪，這是我希望你們在整個規範裡面要寫得清清楚楚的，也就是不得有違反勞工有關權利及薪資積欠的問題。如果有，你們要用最嚴厲的方式，不管是影響計分或者不准投標等等東西，廠商不怕花錢，怕的就是他不能投標，你要抓住廠商的這一個弱點。他要投標，你也不要刻意找麻煩，但是最起碼廠商最怕的就是喪失投標資格，所以我要建議主委這一點。","就像今天人家在抗議北捷，他們為什麼這樣？因為他的權利被剝奪了！你們只有去規範一部分，但是他的權益你們沒有放下去。主委，你可以發現，我對你的建言，就是勞工的部分、工安的部分、權利的部分、薪資的部分，我非常重視。像北捷這個問題，我不曉得主委看過以後有什麼感想？我為什麼要強調？因為他們只要做他們的工作，不能特休，這個就剝奪他的權利啊！所以主委，你看完他們這些抗議有什麼感想？工程會在這裡同不同意把這些也列入進去？我也知道，副主委跟你都有去，委員建議的各項你們6月份以前都會提到行政院去，我希望也把這個部分納進去，主委，你有什麼看法？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是採購單位並沒有依照工程會2019年修正的勞務採購契約範本的規定來納入，目前修正的政府採購法會將類似的契約範本修正成剛性的契約範本，修正成剛性的契約範本之後，各採購機關就必須遵循工程會的契約範本，我們會在契約範本裡面要求，比方說，在勞務採購裡面的所有人，薪資必須要在最低薪資的1.1倍以上，甚至更高的時候，將來在它進行其他標案採購的時候，會有加分的機制，這個也是一種社會企業責任。"],["林委員國成：對，有鼓勵、有懲罰。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會修正成剛性的契約範本。"],["林委員國成：這樣的話對勞工才會有所幫助，就像它現在其他的部分都有做到，薪水、工安都有重視，但是勞工的權利它就忽略了，就是因為我們沒有寫清楚，所以要拜託陳主委，因為你們都是學法律的，你們都比我們還懂，但是我們發現問題提供給你，我相信你們也會把它納進去，統一範本的話，它就無法去逃避，我認為這樣對於整個合約的完整性會更圓滿、更完整，這樣好不好？拜託陳主委、拜託副主委，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請李昆澤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5644d2256c5319b709dcd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dc73901da7dcf6c21b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:13:23 - 09:25:32","影片長度":"00:12:09","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:13:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:25:32+08:00","duration":729,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.70596875,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.88159375,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.97596875,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.80659375,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.37159375,"end":34.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.126593750000005,"end":36.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.408468750000004,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.56034375,"end":45.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.67784375,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.01471875,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.578468750000006,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.56096875,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.76284375,"end":77.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.90596875,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.21284375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.64721875000001,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.56034375,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.09409375000001,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.59159375,"end":112.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.68409375,"end":122.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.31971875,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.23909375000001,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.69846875000002,"end":132.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.40721875,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.78659375,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.90784375,"end":143.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.02534375000002,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.13409375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.68596875,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.02346875,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.10784375,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.15846875,"end":156.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.22159375,"end":168.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.76409375,"end":178.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.11284375000002,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.28534375,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.57471875000002,"end":194.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.46471875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":206.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.79221875000002,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.42909375000002,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.96909375,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.71534375000002,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.29221875000002,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.00034375,"end":224.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.60721875000002,"end":227.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.95534375000003,"end":244.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.75221875000003,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.58659375000002,"end":257.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.15596875000003,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.52221875000004,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.77784375000005,"end":278.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.89034375,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.28159375,"end":290.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.22596875,"end":296.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.25034375,"end":306.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.76784375,"end":314.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.17596875000004,"end":314.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.05346875000004,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.89659375,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.81971875,"end":327.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.96284375000005,"end":327.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.99659375000005,"end":328.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.26659375,"end":328.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.30034375,"end":328.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.31721875,"end":328.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.40159375,"end":328.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.45221875000004,"end":328.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.60409375,"end":328.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.65471875000003,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.00846875,"end":335.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.32471875000005,"end":336.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.56909375000004,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.19284375,"end":341.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.22659375,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.80034375,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.05346875000004,"end":342.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.08721875000003,"end":342.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.10409375,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.96784375000004,"end":363.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.41284375000004,"end":364.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.58971875000003,"end":370.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.50909375000003,"end":371.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.86721875,"end":394.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.10846875000004,"end":405.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.90846875000005,"end":409.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.72659375,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.03721875,"end":420.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.43784375,"end":420.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.45471875000004,"end":442.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.66659375,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.96596875,"end":444.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.14721875000004,"end":446.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.79659375000006,"end":447.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.94846875,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.96909375,"end":450.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.28971875,"end":490.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.45159375000003,"end":467.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.97534375000004,"end":494.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.21096875,"end":513.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.1828437500001,"end":513.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.95471875,"end":515.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.0390937500001,"end":550.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.5734687500001,"end":562.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.49721875,"end":555.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.02409375,"end":559.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.2722187500001,"end":562.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.4240937500001,"end":565.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.9340937500001,"end":566.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.0815937500001,"end":567.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.3303437500001,"end":569.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.81534375,"end":570.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.2665937500001,"end":578.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.8940937500001,"end":592.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.15346875,"end":593.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.80721875,"end":596.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.0009687500001,"end":603.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.5990937500001,"end":604.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.5903437500001,"end":608.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.7590937500001,"end":606.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.22284375,"end":616.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.52159375,"end":614.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.32284375,"end":621.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.28409375,"end":625.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.9753437500001,"end":631.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.8059687500001,"end":632.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.4553437500001,"end":638.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.8172187499999,"end":641.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.66471875,"end":642.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.96846875,"end":645.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.00596875,"end":677.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.96721875,"end":687.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.23596875,"end":697.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.5815937500001,"end":690.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.38221875,"end":695.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.95596875,"end":695.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.7490937500002,"end":696.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.78284375,"end":697.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.8628437500001,"end":701.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.01409375,"end":705.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.35534375,"end":720.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.9140937500001,"end":721.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.21346875,"end":727.9340937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.769,"end":28.1,"text":"主席謝謝 請陳主委請主委委員長主委好 本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是"},{"start":29.264,"end":44.987,"text":"因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計啦是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就"},{"start":45.828,"end":67.981,"text":"先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通大安匯報每個月開一次好 主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績"},{"start":68.982,"end":94.878,"text":"跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及相關的主管代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊"},{"start":95.718,"end":124.97,"text":"是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有看你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有摯愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這一些管理那現在一年多了公司化"},{"start":126.312,"end":127.264,"text":"主委 您自己感覺"},{"start":129.738,"end":155.916,"text":"公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以他進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北 已經一年多了耶這個不是一個新公司耶這個機關已經很久很久了 主委"},{"start":157.476,"end":179.882,"text":"我們這樣子請教比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":181.343,"end":209.345,"text":"今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以他本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎"},{"start":211.749,"end":238.111,"text":"已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故"},{"start":239.392,"end":256.423,"text":"好的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要爭取啊還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在在治理組織來講這很重要"},{"start":259.825,"end":277.916,"text":"杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸的緊啊"},{"start":278.937,"end":306.025,"text":"那螺絲栓緊 最直接的即便你是工程會主委 即便你是政務委員 官大 學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話 怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊"},{"start":306.823,"end":330.496,"text":"那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重"},{"start":333.063,"end":340.281,"text":"他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話 那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦"},{"start":341.243,"end":364.663,"text":"不是嗎這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理 代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧"},{"start":366.636,"end":393.732,"text":"我想這個部長會綜合各種情況來 主委那我另外請教我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來 那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標"},{"start":395.185,"end":419.778,"text":"那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄"},{"start":421.439,"end":449.813,"text":"來報告委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管"},{"start":451,"end":468.036,"text":"現在確實是有各種意見是那我們會往剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司那可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個人那進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變"},{"start":470.017,"end":493.732,"text":"那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力啦認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依 不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些"},{"start":495.914,"end":512.495,"text":"狀況來去做調整嗎我實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件"},{"start":515.577,"end":539.11,"text":"泰魯卡事件這樣的一個狀況 跟我們報告就是說黃湯沛先生這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台"},{"start":539.97,"end":565.223,"text":"就是說這一些有採購防彈變形的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來 主委我就簡單確認兩個撥分啦主委我第一個說如果連"},{"start":569.935,"end":591.985,"text":"負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣"},{"start":594.898,"end":604.606,"text":"劣跡斑斑的負責人 劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想"},{"start":605.669,"end":625.192,"text":"工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎"},{"start":626.333,"end":640.95,"text":"原則上可以 下個會期可以 這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期算現在延長到7月31嘛 但你有可能比較難好 我們就遵照委員的意見 下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊 你們會有加嚴"},{"start":647.278,"end":667.203,"text":"會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審"},{"start":669.284,"end":687.533,"text":"的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點"},{"start":690.814,"end":719.793,"text":"都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引啦他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一啦好 謝謝主委 謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來補起來不要讓國人認為是說怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標"},{"start":721.167,"end":726.94,"text":"這是任何機關 不管立法部門 行政部門都不應該被看到的事情 好嗎 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":132,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時13分）主席謝謝，請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。本席有看到這幾天您是以政務委員的身分，跟臺鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議，新聞也有看到臺鐵事故頻傳，政院要求比照道安會報每月檢討，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為我負責臺鐵安全檢討的會議，本來是每季開會，後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高，要求先試試看每個月將發生的事故詳細的來做報告並檢討相關責任歸屬，所以想比照交通道安會報每個月開一次。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，請教主委，臺鐵派來跟你開會的是什麼層級？"],["陳主任委員金德：董事長、總經理以及相關的主管。"],["洪委員孟楷：董事長？代理董事長？"],["陳主任委員金德：對，代理董事長。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，臺鐵現在是公司，為什麼會公司化？在2024年1月的時候正式公司化，掛牌至今也已經一年多了，當時我們國人最大的要求，在這個交通委員會的會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候，也講是要把相關的缺失、相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進。主委在臉書提到調車錯誤、駕駛疏失、行車安全疑慮，哪一個是新問題？都還是老問題，2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做臺鐵局，所以有窒礙難行之處、有沈痾，沒有辦法去做這些管理，那現在公司化一年多了，主委，您自己感覺公司化之後比較有改善的空間嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為從機關變成公司，公司有董事會，那董事會有各界的……等於是外部董事也都有，所以目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的制度，那因為是臺鐵……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經一年多了，這個不是一個新公司。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為機關已經很久很久了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我講比較實在話，因為我不希望疊床架屋，公務員最怕做什麼事情？開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會。現在你願意跳下來比照道安會報檢討安全，你講說安全跟準點是臺鐵最基本要求，我認同，但是有沒有辦法做到？每個月比照道安會報開一次檢討會議，以工程會主委與政委的身分，把臺鐵公司的人找來，會不會疊床架屋？"],["陳主任委員金德：不會……"],["洪委員孟楷：有內部的管理，有外部的管理，再來工程會，結果問題還是一樣。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為我是受命負責臺鐵的安全督導，它本來就是一個專案，本來就固定在開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，主委，臺鐵公司化一年多，安全你滿意嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：比過去經常的一些重大事故是有進步啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：但你滿意嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們當然還不滿意，所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因並改善，我們在逐步的一件一件檢討，這次是月臺，這次是平交道，每一次事故都一定有原因，那每個原因解決了之後，我們希望透過這個方式，讓公司上下都重視事故的改善是非常重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，立意良善啦，但是我想請教什麼時候代理董事長要真除？還是什麼時候臺鐵可以有一個新的董事長？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是我的權責範圍。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是你決定，可是你會不會覺得在治理組織來講這很重要？杜微前董事長3月20號離職，他申請退休，到現在快三個月過去了，還是代理董事長，如果你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節做好，其實有些時候是螺絲拴不拴得緊的問題，螺絲拴緊，最直接的即便你是工程會主委，即便你是政務委員，官大學問大，但是公務體系也常常有一句話：「怕管不怕官。」你每個月可以跟他們開一次會，可是如果連董事長都是代理的，就代表這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人，或是沒有人在那邊24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全做好，那是不是應該要建議專業任命，該派就要派，而不是用代理的方式？主委，你怎麼看？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前伍次長代理董事長，他本身也是鐵道局出身，相當專業。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯，所以我理解啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：對臺鐵的整個制度、管理、機械等等，他都非常……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是代理，就變成他有交通部次長的業務，又有臺鐵的業務，那孰輕孰重？"],["陳主任委員金德：本來次長就督導鐵道局。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果真的這樣的話，那這樣交通部部長或次長都代理就好了，不是嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我們會尊重委員的意見，不過畢竟還是部長的權責。"],["洪委員孟楷：該建議要建議啦，我覺得這是釜底抽薪。我今天沒有幫任何人講話，我今天講的是制度面，就是組織裡面，如果代理久了，他的權責難免就會不相符，是吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想部長會綜合各種情況來……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我們還是要看之後臺鐵的安全，本席還是期待以安全、專業、準點為出發點，好不好？","現在有本院委員踢爆全臺警用的防彈背心有瑕疵，相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單，但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標，其實我們之前也有討論過，就是希望能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三振條款，因為現在最主要的漏洞在於管公司、不管負責人，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前在修法中，我是不是請陳副主委來跟你簡單說明一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：簡單說明一下，因為這是國人很關心的事情，不管是之前的太魯閣號事件，還是現在的防彈背心，連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵，我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警消弟兄？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，最近我們在跟各界檢討整個停權的制度，當然有各種的意見，有的認為管得太鬆，有的認為管得太嚴，那原則上我們會往一個比較中間的方向，有關要不要納入……"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要去看網友所說的？還有很多人在網路上討論有沒有管啊！你說管得太鬆或管得太嚴，還有人問說到底有沒有在管。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：現在確實是有各種意見啦，剛剛委員也提到，可能會有同一個負責人有好幾家公司的情況，在這個部分我們會做一個處理，但是如果這個也納進來，因為公司畢竟是一個法人，不是自然人，它經營的階層可能會改變，如果要納入三振條款，那麼又把由他擔任負責人的其他所有廠商都納進來，我們是有聽到有一些疑慮，認為這個會不會太過擴及了，所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以依情節輕重或依相關的狀況去做調整，講實在話，情節輕重，如果連警用防彈背心都可以造假，都可以有瑕疵，都可以說驗收完畢之後還可以不符合相關標準，如同之前太魯閣號事件這樣的狀況。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，防彈背心確實讓我們注意到它其實是因為停權，這個採購沒有搭配最有利標，而是用最低標，所以現在我們指導的原則是希望都能夠採用最有利標，那就會把它之前的實績納進來，況且我們現在有成立一個平台，就是這一些有採購防彈背心的機關，如果發現廠商履約有問題，就會通報平台，我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在講這些制度是不是都已經在做了？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：已經在做了。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那為什麼還會弊案層出不窮？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：那是因為弊案發生之後我們才做……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就代表這樣一個制度沒有辦法防範這樣的弊案。主委，我只簡單確認兩個部分，第一，如果連你要鎖定負責人，都很有可能上有政策下有對策，他找人頭來開公司，也可能規避，如果你連負責人都沒有辦法去做警示、限制的話，一個負責人開了A、B、C、D、E五家公司，A公司被你停權了，B公司、C公司再來投標，一樣，那劣跡斑斑的負責人、劣跡斑斑的公司一而再、再而三的有辦法得到政府採購標案，國人作何感想？工程會身為中央主管機關，作何感想？"],["陳主任委員金德：所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂，我想近期內就會報……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會報出來？"],["陳主任委員金德：6月至7月我們綜整之後會報行政院來審。"],["洪委員孟楷：有辦法在下個會期送到立法院，讓我們做修法討論嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：原則上可以，下個會期可以，這個會期恐怕會比較難。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個會期現在延長到7月31日……"],["陳主任委員金德：下個會期……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有可能比較難。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們就遵照委員的意見，下個會期送到大院來審議。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對所謂的三振條款，你們會加嚴？"],["陳主任委員金德：會有一些方式來排除惡劣的廠商用換負責人的方式、開新公司的方式來得標，就像剛才副主委解釋的，個人或相關公司過去的劣跡，會作為將來評審的扣分方式之一，我們會想盡辦法來防杜，這個是修法的最主要重點之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：劣跡如果真的情節重大，是連投標資格都不應該有，是應該停權三年、五年，甚至連投標資格都不應該有。"],["陳主任委員金德：那是看機關，機關採購的條件，他可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這一點都應該要放進去。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會對機關有相關的一些合約指引，然後機關可以參考這個指引，作為它招商的條件之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝主委，謝謝副主委，本席也會提出本席的修法版本，我們期待下個會期共同討論，真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來的補起來，不要讓國人認為怎麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再、再而三投標，這是任何機關（不管立法部門、行政部門）都不應該被看到的事情，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。請林國成召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-14","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","黃健豪","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","廖先翔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」\n及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145701_00003"}}},{"id":"162264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5645f6033c7007d598c9f0f8eeb1de8c89ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc8561d87bf4e94c8c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:13:46 - 10:25:10","影片長度":"00:11:24","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:13:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:25:10+08:00","duration":684,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.075968750000001,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.25284375,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.52221875,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.875968750000002,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.42409375,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.59221875,"end":27.351593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.094093750000003,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.712843750000005,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.150343750000005,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.82346875,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.71784375,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.86534375,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.17159375,"end":85.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.55346875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.45971875000001,"end":124.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.27721875,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.05909375000002,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.56096875,"end":147.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.32846875,"end":157.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.84596875,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.92596875,"end":171.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.20659375000002,"end":179.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.47971875000002,"end":213.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.41096875000002,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.30534375000002,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.87471875000003,"end":217.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.00096875000003,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.23159375,"end":231.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.16346875000002,"end":239.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.53784375,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.54971875,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.05909375000002,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.96596875000003,"end":255.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.92346875,"end":263.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.93909375000004,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.68159375,"end":265.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.67721875,"end":272.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.55784375,"end":274.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.07659375000003,"end":276.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.21971875,"end":280.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.42159375,"end":283.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.39159375,"end":290.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.41159375,"end":293.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.47034375000004,"end":311.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.00784375,"end":317.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.12971875,"end":313.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.59721875,"end":323.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.03096875,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.08159375,"end":324.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.95909375,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.50721875,"end":328.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.32471875000005,"end":344.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.98971875,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.93034375,"end":347.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.09471875,"end":354.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.35096875000005,"end":356.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.93721875,"end":374.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.78784375000004,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.58846875,"end":382.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.58721875000003,"end":385.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.57409375000003,"end":387.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.83534375000005,"end":389.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.82659375000003,"end":390.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.88971875000004,"end":391.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.00346875,"end":392.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.42096875000004,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.40284375000005,"end":406.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.19096875,"end":409.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.78534375000004,"end":413.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.09284375000004,"end":415.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.40471875000003,"end":422.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.27721875000003,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.33596875,"end":425.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.95159375000003,"end":427.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.26784375000005,"end":431.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.77346875,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.52409375,"end":437.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.54909375000005,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.73034375000003,"end":439.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.09284375000004,"end":441.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.46409375,"end":441.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.03784375000004,"end":443.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.11784375,"end":446.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.44221875000005,"end":452.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.61846875000003,"end":457.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.63034375,"end":469.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.37971875000005,"end":473.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.40471875000003,"end":477.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.06221875000006,"end":475.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.08721875000003,"end":477.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.18846875,"end":479.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.30659375000005,"end":477.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.16721875,"end":479.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.41596875000005,"end":479.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.48346875000004,"end":479.70284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.70284375000006,"end":489.79409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.71971875,"end":480.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.15346875000006,"end":485.57534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.03471875,"end":489.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.11471875,"end":490.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.76846875,"end":492.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.96659375,"end":497.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.23159375000006,"end":499.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.76284375000006,"end":502.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.50909375000003,"end":507.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.64784375000005,"end":508.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.16659375000006,"end":517.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.36784375,"end":534.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.49596875,"end":535.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.2509687500001,"end":537.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.7022187499999,"end":540.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.87471875,"end":542.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.96721875,"end":545.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.5278437500001,"end":551.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.07971875,"end":553.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.9697187500001,"end":557.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.71159375,"end":559.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.65659375,"end":566.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.45284375,"end":574.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.3840937500001,"end":584.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.13784375,"end":587.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.7365937500001,"end":588.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.81659375,"end":604.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.65784375,"end":607.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.21034375,"end":611.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.98159375,"end":614.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.3272187499999,"end":616.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.03159375,"end":617.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.58846875,"end":619.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.71471875,"end":620.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.55846875,"end":625.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.92471875,"end":628.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.7765937500001,"end":634.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.6615937500001,"end":636.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.00721875,"end":644.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.9553437500001,"end":651.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.1484687500001,"end":659.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.9953437500001,"end":664.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.6315937500001,"end":669.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.96846875,"end":678.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.81096875,"end":680.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.30409375,"end":683.04659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.189,"text":"主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個"},{"start":28.294,"end":46.243,"text":"目前在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的公司希望能夠盡速的完善立法來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善那這個"},{"start":47.967,"end":70.763,"text":"我看今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常的多包括考試院、包括民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案我想大概這些修正草案大家除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多"},{"start":72.233,"end":86.072,"text":"最主要就是第一個要提升機關讓國家附有防止公務人員免受不法侵害 霸凌不法侵害要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務"},{"start":87.934,"end":108.71,"text":"這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點"},{"start":109.591,"end":123.636,"text":"另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條"},{"start":126.176,"end":129.678,"text":"也是第19條的規定裡面接下來相關配套的這些懲處19條之一懲處罰緩還有機關責任等等這些相關強化機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文"},{"start":144.127,"end":170.567,"text":"那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條"},{"start":172.604,"end":188.399,"text":"剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說"},{"start":189.92,"end":211.693,"text":"這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個"},{"start":219.025,"end":238.02,"text":"我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會"},{"start":246.146,"end":272.467,"text":"這邊來 是不是我們這個法條的內容是 是嘛 這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是"},{"start":273.615,"end":283.182,"text":"情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟委員報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去"},{"start":299.648,"end":317.395,"text":"先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌"},{"start":318.649,"end":337.459,"text":"到底是不是情節重大 因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對 所以那個情節重大 因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大 舉證責任對 舉證責任 就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組外部機關 他就會去決定 我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證 還是還是這個"},{"start":346.96,"end":370.52,"text":"霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證是好這個名字就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大對不對是不是這樣是好這是第一個"},{"start":371.461,"end":392.332,"text":"第二接下來我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三下"},{"start":393.493,"end":409.674,"text":"第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分是對不對他這個一個是是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是權勢者具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者這個他的申訴的期限是不一樣的那"},{"start":411.056,"end":431.481,"text":"權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的啦"},{"start":437.591,"end":464.436,"text":"好 這部分我們等一下逐條的時候 說明清楚啦是好 請跟委員報告這個就是詮釋的跟非詮釋呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關它本身這個人呢 他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢 他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟"},{"start":465.831,"end":491.879,"text":"這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更"},{"start":493.424,"end":505.617,"text":"關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關"},{"start":509.212,"end":535.085,"text":"有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重義工人員懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇"},{"start":536.446,"end":553.637,"text":"說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。"},{"start":559.712,"end":586.742,"text":"我們要知道我們的公務人員的相關法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確行政原則有所抵觸"},{"start":589.091,"end":607.47,"text":"這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在"},{"start":613.015,"end":635.748,"text":"第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為"},{"start":638.052,"end":664.738,"text":"你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要"},{"start":665.857,"end":680.742,"text":"等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個民主黨我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好 以上謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時13分）主席、各位同仁，我們也是非常高興今天能夠安排公務人員保障法部分條文的修正，我想目前在公務體系的公務人員，以及包括朝野、各政黨大家的共識，都希望能夠儘速完善立法來防治公務體系裡相關的職場霸凌問題並有所改善。今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常多，包括考試院、民眾黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案，這些修正草案大概除了兩條比較特別以外，其他整個結構大部分都是差不多。最主要就是第一個，要提升法位階讓機關、國家負有防止公務人員免受霸凌不法侵害，並賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務，這個是今天修法最大、最主要的核心精神，也體現在第十九條的修法條文裡面，就是把國家防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的義務提升到法律的位階，這個是今天修法的第一個重點。另外也將過去規定在行政規則裡面的霸凌構成要件，提升到法律上來定義，這也是第十九條的相關規定，接下來相關配套的懲處規定在第十九條之一，包括懲處、罰鍰還有機關責任等等相關強化機關的防治責任，這部分就是規定在後面的條文。","關於我今天的質詢，基本上包括考試院所提出的草案我是肯定的，但是裡面有幾個部分我個人覺得可以再討論，現在大概先瞭解一下，在法案逐條審查的時候，也可以再進一步討論。第一個，關於第十九條是提升機關負有防護霸凌、避免霸凌的義務且把它提升到法律的位階，剛才吳宗憲委員也有提到，而我比較關心的是第十九條第二項所謂霸凌的完整定義，這裡面有一個重要的概念是持續性，就是逾越職務上正當合理範圍，持續以歧視、侮辱言行及其他方式，造成敵意性、脅迫性。這個持續性的規定是以持續性為原則，但是在後段又有例外規定，就是不必有持續性可是要件為情節重大，對不對？如果情節重大的話，即使不是持續性的行為，也必須包含在霸凌的範圍內，我直接請保訓會回應是否為這個法條的內容？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是，就是這個持續性。這個持續性的概念到底是不是持續，就像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣，傷害是一次性，但是凌虐是持續性的。重點是現在這個例外條款把持續性排除的要件是情節重大，請問情節重大的舉證責任在哪一方？誰來舉證這個狀況是不是情節重大？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，關於舉證，通常申訴人跟再申訴人會先主訴受到什麼樣的狀態，然後機關受理調查開始成立小組後，會就所謂的專業上因果關係去……"],["沈委員發惠：現在我是說持續性的，他可能只有一次的行為，但是這個一次性的霸凌行為到底是不是情節重大？如果不是情節重大，就不在這個霸凌的規範裡面。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，所以那個情節重大，因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大……"],["沈委員發惠：舉證責任。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，舉證責任。就是只要他有申訴了，就會有調查小組、外部機關，就會去決定……"],["沈委員發惠：舉證責任不會在外部機關的，我是說外部機關調查的過程裡面，誰來舉證？是由申訴人來舉證？霸凌者來舉證？舉證責任之所在，敗訴之所在，這個部分我要瞭解情節重大的舉證責任到底在哪一方？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是由申訴人舉證。"],["沈委員發惠：由申訴人舉證？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這就由申訴人來舉證，舉證說雖然是一次沒有持續，但是要申訴必須舉證是情節重大，是不是這樣？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這是第一個。接下來第二個，我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限，申訴期限區分成兩種，一種是非權勢地位者，一種是具權勢地位者，對不對？在第三項第一款跟第二款做這個區分，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：它申訴的期限是不一樣的，具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者的申訴的期限是不一樣的。那權勢是如何認定？什麼叫做具權勢地位？什麼叫做不具權勢地位？這地方跟法律明確性原則我個人覺得有一點疑慮，這部分要怎樣認定是不是具有權勢者？等一下在逐條討論時你們要說明清楚。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。跟委員報告，權勢跟非權勢在我們的定義上面是指機關中這個人的地位對於被霸凌人可能是主管，具有監督管理的角色跟責任，這是我們定義他具有權勢的概念。"],["沈委員發惠：你們在立法說明裡面第五項是這樣寫，我覺得……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，在這上面是這樣寫，但是委員所說的確是正確的，我們討論權勢跟非權勢是需要再……"],["沈委員發惠：對，這個定義的認定會是值得討論的，在未來到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則？這是一個重要的地方。關於法律明確性原則，在這次修法草案裡面，我覺得有一個更嚴重的地方，在第十九條之一，「各機關……有下列情形之一者，其應負責人員，應按情節輕重，依公務員懲戒法……」，「其應負責人員」不是一個明確的法律概念。這東西不是我在這裡提而已，我看今天的書面報告，包括立法院法制局，包括法務部今天的書面報告，大家桌上有，大家可以翻一翻，包括司法院，司法院的書面報告寫得最兇、說得最兇，他說你們所謂「應負責人員」違反法律明確性原則，誰是應負責人員？它是一個行政法人懲處責任的主體，你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員，這個會有點問題喔！","公務人員相關法令是聲請釋憲比例最高的，幾乎所有公務人員相關規範法令在聲請釋憲裡面是比例最高的，而這一條法令，各個相關機關都直接點出第十九條之一的「應負責人員」與法律明確性原則有所牴觸。關於這部分，你們雖然在立法說明第三點有提到，所謂應負責人員係指什麼、什麼、什麼，但這是你們的立法說明，這跟在法律條文上面的應負責人員……因為你們這裡寫「應負責人員」，但是你們在第十九條之一第六項卻是規範「機關首長」，機關首長就很明確是機關首長，但在前面你們就用應負責人員，我覺得在立法體系上面，第一個，也有前後不一致的地方。第二個，應負責人員的部分，我認為等一下在逐條討論的時候，你們應該要設法把它明確化，不然我個人除了說……其實不只我個人，包括立法院法制局、包括法務部、包括司法院都認為這個有違反法律明確性原則，說得更兇一點，就是它有違憲的疑慮，違反明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮。所以我希望我們在立法時，請考試院秘書長等一下在逐條之前，能夠就條文中所謂「應負責人員」的部分做個考慮、做個文字上的斟酌，好不好？以上。"],["蔡主任秘書秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162262","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162262","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56418c237d2852dc0f833769fbc08eef2e9e7f061fc5ac7c7dcb61b70df70fb98815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:08:12 - 10:20:22","影片長度":"00:12:10","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T10:08:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:20:22+08:00","duration":730,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.447218750000001,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.43346875,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.48346875,"end":61.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.33346875,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.69471875,"end":73.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.80846875,"end":76.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.25096875,"end":85.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.21596875,"end":99.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.29784375000001,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.59909375000001,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.48346875000001,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.79534375,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.86284375,"end":186.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.87971875,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.61784375000002,"end":217.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.83659375000002,"end":343.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.66909375,"end":345.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.85471875,"end":344.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.22159375,"end":378.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.50784375,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.89909375,"end":445.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.59846875000005,"end":471.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.73346875000004,"end":472.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.75034375,"end":472.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.76721875000004,"end":472.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.78409375,"end":482.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.39846875,"end":483.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.63034375,"end":485.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.60909375000006,"end":487.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.97159375,"end":491.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.19034375,"end":544.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.8572187500001,"end":568.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.1572187500001,"end":569.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.1740937500001,"end":577.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.19346875,"end":582.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.18034375,"end":585.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.19721875,"end":604.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.4709687500001,"end":587.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.3372187500001,"end":605.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.0459687499999,"end":606.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.06284375,"end":606.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.1640937500001,"end":606.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.24846875,"end":606.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.2990937500001,"end":607.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.9697187500001,"end":610.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.8472187500001,"end":609.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.01159375,"end":611.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.02846875,"end":611.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.0872187500001,"end":613.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.80846875,"end":614.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.36096875,"end":620.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.44471875,"end":630.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.74409375,"end":621.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.1697187500001,"end":626.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.97034375,"end":663.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.57284375,"end":717.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.16221875,"end":673.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.3659687500001,"end":719.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.3828437500001,"end":720.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.5090937500001,"end":722.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.54284375,"end":720.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.9140937500001,"end":720.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.6984687500001,"end":726.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.03534375,"end":729.97596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.119,"end":7.139,"text":"次長"},{"start":20.529,"end":41.043,"text":"近日這個新聞上近日又頻頻傳出中國對台灣進行各種認知作戰例如說在社群平台上散播假訊息等其中影響最廣最多的就是讓附中發展的台灣藝人配合散播相關的這個資訊還有邀請藝人附中拍攝呼籲兩岸統一的這個劇情電影要求藝人配合轉發"},{"start":41.883,"end":60.579,"text":"台灣不是一個國家台灣唯一稱為就是中國台灣省這種貶低台灣踐踏台灣主權的帖文還有藝人為求發展直接認同自己就是中國人而不斷地貶低台灣次長您覺得說藝人附中是為求發展但是卻陸續發出這樣子傷害台灣主權的言論文化部認為這樣子是合適的嗎"},{"start":62.472,"end":88.219,"text":"當然我們還是要譴責中國的這種做法這種統戰的做法然後去利用我們的藝人或者是文化界人士強迫他們去做這樣子的表態我們真的希望中國可以不要用統戰或政治的手腕來逼迫藝人跟文化人做任何的表態所以其實文化部這邊的立場也覺得這是非常不適合不恰當的"},{"start":89.119,"end":93.569,"text":"那陸委會日前也明確的表示說針對這些邁臺藝人會有相關規範的訂定並且會協同文化部來召開專案會議想要市長說目前你們進度如何"},{"start":101.305,"end":101.445,"text":"行政院在開會協調"},{"start":131.485,"end":150.573,"text":"因為我會表示說藝人如果有在特定的時間轉發中共訊息會視為說是一個合作的性質也會同文化部進行行政查核按照他的頻率及嚴重性用客觀的標準來檢視本席相信說文化部不會一律的就是禁止藝人負重發展"},{"start":151.013,"end":166.571,"text":"但是在台灣發揮在台灣願意成長的這些藝人腹中發展之後數點忘祖為求發展不斷的配合共產黨進行任職作戰我想這是台灣民眾沒有辦法接受的他們根本是忘了自己的國家也不要自己的家忘了自己的國"},{"start":167.392,"end":185.8,"text":"那文化部這邊呢是不是會針對說調查後之後有確實有邁達行為的相關藝人有一些因應的這個處罰機制例如說是不是追討曾經補助過的計畫經費或是規定之後有相關文化部這邊的補助案他們不能申請會不會朝這個方向"},{"start":186.993,"end":198.802,"text":"目前就我所知我們跟陸委會這邊協調是他這個反應就如果有確切的一個接受對方的補助或者是而去發了這樣子傷害我們國權踐踏台灣地位的這樣的言論的時候是會有罰環可是這個罰環"},{"start":206.528,"end":218.321,"text":"是不是要涉及說我們用其他的追討前面曾經補助過或者是限制他未來的補助資格這件事情我們會一併的加以討論跟研議好嗎希望說你們去研議朝這個方向因為我們不能讓他有恃無恐"},{"start":222.406,"end":227.831,"text":"不能覺得說我在這邊講了什麼 我配合中共 配合共產黨所發的言論文化部這邊拿我沒皮條這個部分我希望說我們有一個比較嚴格的 嚴謹的一個規範希望說我們文化部跟陸委會這邊盡速將相關的規範制定完成讓藝人附中發展他們有所因應 有所依循 也景氣"},{"start":246.389,"end":251.571,"text":"他們就說有這樣子的規範在 謹慶他們不能這樣子無底線的配合共產黨來傷害台灣的主權 傷害台灣民眾的心這個部分希望你們可以盡快有一個規範來制定接下來我這邊要先感謝次長您在今年魯班公宴代表文化部到鹿港參加魯班公宴的祭典並且擔任主祭官"},{"start":269.557,"end":285.185,"text":"我相信說次長您在盧班公演的時候也看到說許多令人讚嘆令人驚豔的這個公益作品那本席選區鹿港也是說是算是公益古鎮那本席也一直非常關心公益人才以及匠師的這個培育以及育成"},{"start":286.005,"end":313.419,"text":"工藝技衣之所以重要是因為工藝存在於我們的生活之中小到所做的這小東西大到裝飾品或是裝置藝術工藝是無所不在的那工藝也是需要紀念需要傳承以及推廣本席鄉事務次長也是認同的那國立台灣工藝研究發展中心推出2025台灣工藝祭那五號部長李遠部長在致詞的時候有表示說工藝就在生活之中也是最認能"},{"start":314.379,"end":343.339,"text":"可以最讓人喚醒這個生活的熱情那今年有台灣公益祭未來台灣也會是公益島顯現我們台灣公益祭是受到大家的肯定不論是文化部還是民間的這個公益人才都是認同台灣公益的優秀與創新那台灣有如此優秀的公益祭以及這麼多的公益人才文化部一直以來也都在研擬這個設置台灣公益節那本席這邊想請教目前研擬的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":345.321,"end":364.321,"text":"對臺灣公益節臺灣公益節的部分我們現在是透過活動我們每年在6月5號的時候其實都會有一系列的活動來凸顯我們公益在生活中的一個重要性那至於能不能訂一個節日的部分因為要有提案單位所以這部分就我所知我們好像一個公益總會它現在也有一些提案"},{"start":364.861,"end":370.825,"text":"那我想民間的那個能量如果那個提議到一定能量的時候我們會適時的去轉達給內政部然後看讓內政部來研議是不是能夠定為一個所謂的假日或是紀念日根據紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條第28款其他由中央目的事業主管機關核定之旅就是說"},{"start":386.095,"end":414.334,"text":"文化部這邊只要你們認定有其必要合訂之後我們你們呈報內政部就可以那本席是非常的支持設置台灣公益節並且可以提高到國家紀念日的層級那我今天也有相關的臨時提案喔因為文化部既然沒有方向有規劃就應該讓台灣公益節可以成真我們來表彰就是對台灣公益的肯定跟支持公益其實一直是一個很沉默但是又一直在不斷的在付出"},{"start":415.134,"end":435.266,"text":"不算的在默默的做他們自己創新這個公益的這樣手作的這樣一個群體但是有我們內政有我們那個文化部這邊如果你們可以提報到內政部對他們的肯定我想這個對所有的公益人來講也是一個很大的鼓舞我希望說你們這邊可以盡快來做相關的這個規劃"},{"start":438.888,"end":441.79,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們會再跟公益中心這邊做討論看什麼時候可以有進一步的動作好 謝謝次長那現在進入今天這個專報的主題外部這邊我們為了呼籲聯合國家科文組織推動國際合作保護人類共有遺產從92年開始就辦理台灣世界遺產潛力點的遴選"},{"start":461.283,"end":470.786,"text":"那從99年確定有18處的潛力點之後都沒有再新增那這十幾年來都沒有合適新增的潛力點嗎應該是說我們一年在討論的時候包括在112年第五屆的最後一次討論其實有談到說因為"},{"start":484.69,"end":504.23,"text":"我們剛剛講預算大概就是五千萬如果說潛力點不斷的增加的話其實勢多利分就是會我們對於潛力點的保護或者是力量就會被均分掉了所以才會希望集中所以為什麼後來台討論說我們可能用"},{"start":504.73,"end":530.347,"text":"把阿里山林業鐵路作為一個集中的一個保護點把利器稍微集中一些不然我們邀請來的這些國外的專家來他也很難一口氣看18個點那我們才會有這樣子一個逐步的討論可是並不是說我們只做阿里山其他17處就放棄掉也不能這樣子我們要繼續保溫繼續支持他們所以如果要不要再增加新的潛力點"},{"start":531.347,"end":559.029,"text":"這個部分就我們的要點來講我們並沒有禁止地方政府如果提出那我們還是會經過審議委員會這樣一個去討論那只是跟委員做說明的是審議委員不免會考慮到說現有的18個點都還沒有做好甚至還有7處連那個潛力的文本都還沒有完成那是覺得說是不是在此時此刻要增加新的潛力點這個部分委員們會去做另外的考量"},{"start":559.409,"end":576.779,"text":"那只是說只要有縣政府提報的話我們其實基本上都還是會盡量的挪出經費來支持縣市政府做初期的一個研究跟文本的鑽明但是其實根據作業議要點的規定除了縣市政府提報之外文資局也可以自行提報文資局這邊你們有自行提報過嗎"},{"start":580.576,"end":602.662,"text":"剛剛的提問就是已經有18處了所以有一點是因為礙於預算還有人力這其實這樣聽起來覺得有點遺憾那本席這邊也問過文資局我們彰化縣政府在111年有提出文資局的補助50萬來進行前立點的撰寫及評估計畫但是後來沒有正式的提報是中間有什麼問題嗎為什麼後來就無疾而終"},{"start":606.376,"end":629.702,"text":"可能要問一下彰化縣政府你們沒有去了解嗎他已經完成了然後可是我不知道說可能在提案自己做的他可能覺得還不錯就是說他申請這個50萬來補助他們寫相關的計畫他們是有完成的只是到最後沒有提報所以是彰化縣政府的問題"},{"start":630.862,"end":633.785,"text":"應該這樣講就是說我們他現在做完一個評估報告之後所以理論上他如果要進到我們的審議大會裡頭他還是得先有他地方層級的世界遺產推動會去他地方層級先通過他然後還有另外一個他必須要講的公聽會因為"},{"start":647.378,"end":662.746,"text":"一旦被劃定是歷史結局就是他有文化資產的身份以後對於當地的居民的土地建物都會有相對程度的一種限制所以他必須透過公聽會得到民眾的支持了以後我們才有辦法進行下一步"},{"start":663.635,"end":676.632,"text":"所以他申請補助來撰寫這個評估計畫之後他自己彰化縣政府並沒有進行後面後續的相關目前還沒有目前還沒有本席希望說文化部我們辦理這個世界遺產潛力點要"},{"start":678.615,"end":683.176,"text":"希望可以更積極雖然說剛有提到說可能礙於經費跟人力但是我們在補助縣市政府完成相關計畫之後希望也要持續追蹤我們至少要掌握後續的狀況是如何希望可以讓縣市政府順利的完成就像剛剛配議委員講的不要斷線這個中間有怎樣的問題產生我們都應該要去了解跟掌握"},{"start":702.74,"end":716.925,"text":"我們是希望說讓我們台灣有更多具有世界遺產潛力的這個文化景點可以妥善的保存而且可以讓我們國人一起甚至讓外國的遊客更多人來領略台灣之美所以這個部分也希望文化部可以更積極"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時8分）謝謝主席。請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長早。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早安。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，近日新聞上又頻頻傳出中國對臺灣進行各種認知作戰，例如在社群平臺上散播假訊息等，其中影響最廣、最多的，就是讓赴中發展的臺灣藝人配合散播相關資訊，還邀請藝人赴中拍攝，呼籲兩岸統一的劇情電影，並要求藝人配合轉發「臺灣不是一個國家，臺灣唯一稱謂就是中國臺灣省」這種貶低臺灣、踐踏臺灣主權的貼文。甚至還有藝人為求發展，直接認同自己就是中國人，且不斷貶低臺灣。次長，藝人赴中是為求發展，卻陸續發出如此傷害臺灣主權的言論，文化部認為合適嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我們當然要譴責中國這種作法，這種統戰的作法，利用我們的藝人或文化界人士，強迫他們做這樣的表態，我們真的希望中國可以不要用統戰或政治的手腕，逼迫藝人跟文化人做任何表態。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以文化部的立場也覺得非常不適合、不恰當！陸委會日前明確表示，針對賣臺藝人會訂定相關規範，並且會協同文化部召開專案會議。請問次長，目前進度如何？"],["李次長靜慧：其實行政院一直有對這部分開會協調，我們現在唯一能夠使用的法令就是兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條，其相關規定正由陸委會做特別的研議，之後再轉請文化部……因為陸委會是兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關，而文化部會配合陸委會的要點去修正……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以現在還在討論當中？"],["李次長靜慧：是的，還沒有定案。"],["陳委員秀寳：陸委會表示，藝人如在特定時間轉發中共訊息，將視為合作性質，並會同文化部進行行政查核，按照其頻率及嚴重性，用客觀標準檢視。本席相信文化部不會一律禁止藝人赴中發展，但在臺灣發跡、在臺灣孕育成長的藝人赴中發展之後，數典忘祖，為求發展不斷配合共產黨進行認知作戰，我想這是臺灣民眾沒有辦法接受的！他們根本就忘了自己的國，也不要自己的家！文化部在調查後，針對確實有賣臺行為的相關藝人，是否會有因應的處罰機制？例如追討曾經補助過的計畫經費？或規定之後與相關文化部的補助案，他們不能申請？會不會朝這個方向？"],["李次長靜慧：目前就我所知，我們跟陸委會的協調，如果確信有接受對方補助而轉發傷害我們國權、踐踏臺灣地位的言論，是會有罰鍰。至於罰鍰，是否追討前面曾經補助過的費用，或限制其未來的補助資格？這些我們會一併加以討論跟研議。"],["陳委員秀寳：希望你們能朝這個方向研議，因為不能讓他有恃無恐！不能讓他覺得不管在那邊講了什麼，或配合共產黨去轉發言論，文化部都拿他沒皮條！我希望這部分我們能有一個比較嚴格的、嚴謹的規範，所以文化部跟陸委會要儘速將相關規範制定完成，讓赴中發展的藝人有所因應，有所依循，同時也警惕他們有這樣的規範，不能再無底線配合共產黨傷害臺灣主權，傷害臺灣民眾的心！這部分希望你們可以儘快制訂規範。","接下來我要先感謝次長，您在今年代表文化部到鹿港參加魯班公宴祭典，並擔任主祭官，相信次長在魯班公宴上也看到許多令人讚嘆、令人驚豔的工藝作品。本席選區鹿港也算是工藝古鎮，本席也一直非常關心工藝人才以及匠師的培育和育成。工藝技藝之所以重要，是因為工藝存在於我們的生活之中，小到所做的小東西，大到裝飾品或裝置藝術，工藝是無所不在的。但工藝也需要紀念，需要傳承以及推廣，本席相信次長也認同這點。國立臺灣工藝研究發展中心推出2025臺灣工藝季，文化部長李遠在致詞時表示，工藝就在生活之中，也最可以喚醒人對生活的熱情。今年有臺灣工藝季，未來臺灣也會是工藝島，顯見臺灣工藝季受到大家的肯定！不論文化部還是民間的工藝人才，都認同臺灣工藝的優秀與創新。鑑於臺灣有如此優秀的工藝技藝及這麼多的工藝人才，所以文化部一直以來都在研擬設置臺灣工藝節。本席想請教，目前研擬的進度怎麼樣？"],["李次長靜慧：針對臺灣工藝節，我們現在是透過活動，每年在6月5日都會有一系列的活動凸顯工藝在生活中的重要性。至於能不能訂定節日？因為要有提案單位，就我所知，工藝總會好像有提案，在民間提議到一定能量時，我們會適時轉達給內政部，由內政部研議看是否定為假日或是紀念日……"],["陳委員秀寳：節日。根據紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條第二十八款，其他由中央目的事業主管機關核定之日，也就是說只要文化部認定有其必要，核定之後呈報內政部就可以了。本席非常支持設置臺灣工藝節，甚至認為可以提高到國家紀念日層級，所以我今天有提出相關的臨時提案，因為文化部既然有方向、有規劃，就應該讓臺灣工藝節可以成真，我們來表彰對臺灣工藝的肯定跟支持。工藝其實一直是個很沉默但又不斷地在付出、不斷默默地創新工藝手作的一個群體，如果文化部可以提報到內政部，這是對他們的肯定，我想這對所有工藝人來講也是一個很大的鼓舞，我希望你們可以儘快做相關的規劃跟進度。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會跟工藝中心討論，看什麼時候可以有進一步的動作。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝次長。","現在進入今天專報的主題，文化部為了呼應聯合國教科文組織推動國際合作保護人類共有遺產，從92年開始就辦理臺灣世界遺產潛力點的遴選，從99年確定有18處的潛力點之後都沒有再新增，這十幾年來都沒有合適新增的潛力點嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：應該是說，我們在討論的時候，包括112年第5屆的最後一次討論，其實是有談到的。剛剛有講到這個部分的預算大概就是5,000萬，如果潛力點不斷增加的話，其實事多力分，就是我們對於潛力點的保護或者力量就會被均分掉了，所以才會希望集中。這就是為什麼後來討論說我們可能用阿里山林業鐵路作為一個集中的保護點，把力氣稍微集中一些，不然我們邀請這些國外的專家來，他也很難一口氣看18個點，所以我們才會有這樣逐步的討論，可是並不是說我們只做阿里山，其他17處就放棄掉，也不能這樣，我們要繼續保溫、繼續支持他們。所以要不要再增加新的潛力點，這個部分就我們的要點來講，我們並沒有禁止，地方政府如果提出，我們還是會經過審議委員會去討論。只是要跟委員說明的是，審議委員不免會考慮到現有的18個點都還沒有做好，甚至還有7處連潛力的文本都還沒有完成，所以是不是要在此時此刻增加新的潛力點，這個部分委員們會去做另外的考量。只是只要有縣政府提報，我們基本上都還是會儘量挪出經費，支持縣市政府做初期的研究跟文本的撰擬。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是根據作業要點的規定，除了縣市政府提報之外，文資局也可以自行提報，文資局這邊有自行提報過嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：這就跟剛剛的提問一樣，已經有18處了，我們照顧這18處就已經有點……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以有一點是因為礙於預算及人力……"],["李次長靜慧：預算跟人力。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實這樣聽起來覺得有點遺憾。","本席也問過文資局，我們彰化縣政府在111年曾向文資局申請補助50萬，進行潛力點的文本撰寫及評估計畫，但是後來沒有正式提報，是中間有什麼問題嗎？為什麼後來就無疾而終？"],["李次長靜慧：這可能要問一下彰化縣政府，因為他們結案……"],["陳委員秀寳：你們沒有去了解嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：他已經完成了，可是我不知道，可能是提案方自己做了之後可能覺得還不夠、無足以提出。"],["陳委員秀寳：就是他們申請這50萬的補助撰寫相關計畫是有完成的，只是到最後沒有提報，所以是彰化縣政府的問題？"],["李次長靜慧：應該這樣講，他現在做完一個評估報告之後，理論上，如果要進到我們的審議大會裡頭，還是要先有地方層級的世界遺產推動會，地方層級先通過，然後還必須要有公聽會，因為一旦被劃定是歷史街區，就是有文化資產的身分以後，對於當地居民的土地、建物都會有相對程度的限制，所以必須過公聽會得到民眾的支持以後，我們才有辦法進行下一步。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以在申請補助撰寫文本及評估計畫之後，彰化縣政府並沒有進行後續相關的這些……"],["李次長靜慧：對，目前還沒有。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。本席希望文化部辦理世界遺產潛力點可以更積極。雖然剛剛有提到可能礙於經費跟人力，但是我們在補助縣市政府完成相關計畫之後，希望也要持續追蹤，至少要掌握後續的狀況是如何，希望可以讓縣市政府順利地完成，就像剛剛沛憶委員講的不要斷線，這個中間有怎樣的問題產生，你們都應該要去了解跟掌握。我們是希望讓臺灣有更多具有世界遺產潛力的文化景點可以妥善地保存，而且可以讓我們國人，甚至讓外國遊客、讓更多人來領略臺灣之美，所以這個部分也希望文化部可以更積極。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會繼續努力。謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，以上，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳秀寳委員，次長請回。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564a615519bacd2b5319f0f8eeb1de8c89ce7f061fc5ac7c7dca584b8aae4e4ec475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:58:14 - 10:12:36","影片長度":"00:14:22","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:58:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:12:36+08:00","duration":862,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.21659375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.10534375,"end":16.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.88909375,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.871593750000002,"end":23.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.554718750000003,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.612843750000003,"end":31.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.53659375,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.83971875,"end":46.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.479093750000004,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.39034375,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.516593750000006,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.954718750000005,"end":63.953468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.96596875,"end":70.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.06221875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.89846875,"end":92.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.96159375,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.80534375,"end":94.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.96971875000001,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.23971875000001,"end":98.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.20971875000001,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.59784375000001,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.34034375,"end":99.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.35721875,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.56784375000001,"end":102.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.37784375000001,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.78409375000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.32346875,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.58034375,"end":132.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.44471875000002,"end":136.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.78971875000002,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.95846875,"end":171.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.31659375,"end":170.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.29534375,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.31909375,"end":186.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.68534375000002,"end":194.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.29159375,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.91346875000002,"end":212.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.79096875000002,"end":221.95409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.75534375,"end":227.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.30346875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.32034375,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.37096875,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.08659375000002,"end":240.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.40659375,"end":244.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.21221875,"end":260.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.98596875000004,"end":272.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.81096875000003,"end":296.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.74409375000005,"end":297.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.62159375000005,"end":298.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.97159375,"end":324.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.45284375,"end":350.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.68909375000004,"end":370.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.74096875000004,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.03596875000005,"end":400.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.81221875,"end":402.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.88784375,"end":407.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.83221875000004,"end":421.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.96096875,"end":436.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.86721875,"end":427.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.25534375,"end":427.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.25471875000005,"end":431.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.76471875000004,"end":435.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.33409375,"end":440.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.56971875000005,"end":448.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.47971875,"end":465.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.89909375,"end":477.59346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.99846875000003,"end":479.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.56784375,"end":480.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.77034375000005,"end":488.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.89971875000003,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.93346875000003,"end":489.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.02909375,"end":525.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.26534375,"end":538.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.2822187500001,"end":525.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.91034375,"end":528.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.6147187500001,"end":533.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.01034375,"end":537.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.8203437500001,"end":542.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.6128437500001,"end":572.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.0459687499999,"end":552.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.1840937500001,"end":559.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.23471875,"end":559.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.35909375,"end":576.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.8815937500001,"end":585.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.3359687500001,"end":596.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.5790937500001,"end":606.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.6240937499999,"end":605.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":605.65784375,"end":606.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":607.63221875,"end":620.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":620.71034375,"end":631.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":632.11784375,"end":666.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":666.3234687500001,"end":670.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.0359687499999,"end":670.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":670.23846875,"end":670.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.32284375,"end":727.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":670.4578437499999,"end":670.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.7990937500001,"end":748.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.0447187500001,"end":781.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.98471875,"end":785.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.08534375,"end":786.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":786.4228437500001,"end":786.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.9965937500001,"end":787.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":787.0134687500001,"end":818.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.29409375,"end":800.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.6315937500001,"end":800.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.2122187500001,"end":811.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.8272187500002,"end":827.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":827.32784375,"end":839.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.00159375,"end":836.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.96346875,"end":837.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":840.7265937500001,"end":845.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":846.0590937500001,"end":846.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.44721875,"end":859.6772187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.766,"end":32.648,"text":"好首先我是因為昨天我們國民黨有許曉欣委員他有提到一個問題就是陳菊院長的問題那我想說這邊就順便剛好今天我們在討論這有關公務員的部分那我想先也把一些問題提出來問一下那當然我也是希望說那個陳菊院長能夠早日康復我想請教一下就是"},{"start":35.912,"end":45.985,"text":"人種這邊我想請問一下就是像院長級別的這種政務官他這個人事的問題這個是由誰來主管"},{"start":50.698,"end":63.727,"text":"監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權那我是說他一些相關的一些公務體系上面他有關人事的部分這個是由誰來主管"},{"start":66.415,"end":89.808,"text":"目前現行來講的話 應該還是在考試院考試院 好 謝謝秘書長我想請教一下就是因為昨天我們有委員提出來說這個院長他已經請病假五個月了我想了解一下這過往有沒有主觀因病請病假到五個月這麼久的紀錄沒有"},{"start":93.897,"end":117.327,"text":"所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那"},{"start":121.849,"end":136.098,"text":"好 那沒關係喔 那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說 擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長 有沒有這個規範"},{"start":141.61,"end":154.318,"text":"我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假只有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假"},{"start":154.818,"end":170.885,"text":"那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告"},{"start":171.345,"end":185.232,"text":"好的 這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好 謝謝"},{"start":186.713,"end":210.172,"text":"好 那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個 最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第6條或是刑法129條"},{"start":213.133,"end":240.04,"text":"如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看請全序部跟排次來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎"},{"start":243.272,"end":271.898,"text":"會啊會影響啊好那這邊我想說這邊就是做一個一個論述一個確定就是說因為我之前有對一個那個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話那將來判決確定假設判有罪萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下"},{"start":274.245,"end":295.231,"text":"那我再來請問一下 就我們這次修法我們這次修法 我想請教秘書長這次修法 其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到 就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的"},{"start":297.717,"end":321.301,"text":"是不是社會 因為其實這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦"},{"start":322.101,"end":348.828,"text":"這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼我的意思是像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解所以說"},{"start":351.758,"end":371.967,"text":"既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利益的對待的時候"},{"start":373.087,"end":402.095,"text":"他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下"},{"start":402.955,"end":419.325,"text":"秘書長您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任"},{"start":422.167,"end":448.667,"text":"這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民主黨報告因為我們保障草案19-1條啦其實我看了一下那個19-1條草案它還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部"},{"start":449.788,"end":478.788,"text":"機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案"},{"start":482.57,"end":496.761,"text":"其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊"},{"start":498.022,"end":524.779,"text":"好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對勞工的保障"},{"start":525.299,"end":537.712,"text":"但是如果是勞工的話它的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠"},{"start":542.717,"end":571.708,"text":"把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是 謝謝方導演否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧"},{"start":572.628,"end":576.54,"text":"好 那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下"},{"start":578.05,"end":606.586,"text":"當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來好那麻煩主委"},{"start":607.819,"end":627.683,"text":"跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性"},{"start":628.496,"end":647.963,"text":"更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢"},{"start":648.639,"end":663.646,"text":"過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面"},{"start":666.462,"end":685.843,"text":"不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國他不像歐洲他有一個遺忘權的這個法治概念所以說歐洲他有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西"},{"start":686.303,"end":705.306,"text":"但因為我國目前沒有 所以如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到"},{"start":705.746,"end":726.956,"text":"那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是"},{"start":728.556,"end":747.501,"text":"不是說持續性不重要 而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是集成犯 直接就做完了但是呢 他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這跟主委報告謝謝委員是 好 那那個最後我想說"},{"start":749.233,"end":764.381,"text":"我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的"},{"start":764.861,"end":786.293,"text":"那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌 主委"},{"start":787.345,"end":808.924,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像"},{"start":809.434,"end":838.974,"text":"符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好 以上謝謝是 不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告 機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢 基本上呢"},{"start":841.075,"end":859.604,"text":"這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下紀錄以上好 那沒問題 那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再麻煩主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好 謝謝各位 各位辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時58分）首先，昨天我們國民黨徐巧芯委員有提到一個陳菊院長的問題，剛好今天我們在討論有關公務員的部分，我也把一些問題提出來問一下，當然我也希望陳菊院長能夠早日康復。","我想請教一下人總這邊，像院長級別政務官的人事問題是由誰來主管？"],["陳處長月春：以監察院來講的話，監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，任命，那我是指他在一些相關的公務體系上面還有關於人事的部分是由誰來主管。"],["陳處長月春：現行來講，應該還是在考試院。"],["吳委員宗憲：考試院，謝謝。","秘書長，我想請教一下，昨天有委員提出來院長已經請病假5個月了，我想了解一下，過往有沒有主官因病請病假5個月這麼久的紀錄？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我沒有這個印象，但是……"],["吳委員宗憲：政次知道嗎？好，沒有。","因為現在有人提出這個問題，因為他畢竟是主官，主官已經請病假5個月了，這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反復問，但因為我自己對這塊的法規也不了解，所以我今天才會來請教這個問題。沒關係，如果大家不是那麼清楚，那有沒有規定擔任主官、院長級的請病假時限能夠多長，有沒有這個規範？請政次。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝，我跟委員報告，依照公務員請假規則，病假有28天，如果請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復、還沒辦法來上班的話，就可以申請延長病假。而延長病假時間是2年可以請1年的時間，如果身體好了、有醫師證明可以回來上班，那就可以回來上班，目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用。以上報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的，我自己擔任過公務員，我也了解這個制度，但是在五院裡面，一個院的主官有這個狀況的時候，所以我們今天才要來請教一下，看看有沒有不同的規定，謝謝。","接下來，我們就回到本日的主題，我想請教一下秘書長，最近我們在討論一個抑留剋扣的問題，那我想請教一下秘書長，有關抑留剋扣可能涉犯的是貪污治罪條例第六條或是刑法第一百二十九條，如果公務員因為這樣而被判有罪的話，這個會不會影響到他將來的公務員或是退休金的請領？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個部分我請銓敘部懷次來回答。"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，依照公務人員任用法的規定，如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話，這是會喪失公務員身分，以上報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：那會影響到退休金的請領嗎？"],["懷次長敍：會啊，會影響。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我想我這邊就是做一個論述、一個確定，因為我之前有對一個抑留剋扣罪告發，我這邊也是要敬告所有的公務員，如果涉犯抑留剋扣罪的話，將來判決確定，假設判有罪、萬一判有罪，這會影響到官職還有退休金，而且這個追訴權時效還滿長的，這個部分我先在這邊跟各位報告一下。","再請問一下，關於我們這次修法，我想請教秘書長，這次修法其實我在意的就是外部監督的問題，我想我去年11月、12月那個時候一直提到我們現在的公務員，為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少？這是數字上就可以顯現出來的，是不是社會上在這段時間，我覺得政治上的運作有點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲、退休公務員更是米蟲，很多人是在營造這樣的觀感，所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善。像我們都是公務體系出來的，我們就很清楚，達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實看的是政治傾向，這個早就凌駕於文官的專業。我想大家都任公務員、都在公務體系，也都能夠心領神會我今天在說什麼。我的意思是，像這段時間這個樣子，到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員？還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單，就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素，我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解。既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工，而我們對於勞工，我們對於私人企業是這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話，那對於公務員，我想也是要去重視他的權利。","其次，公部門一直以來有一個問題，就是當他受到一些不利益對待的時候，他的申訴管道通常就是在部門內部或是向長官，但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌、長官的要求，這時候他該怎麼辦？這個就是我們有意見的地方，所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望公務員乾脆一併適用職安法好了，他覺得職安法反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整。我想請教一下秘書長您是否認同，有關我們草案第十九條的處罰，還有安衛辦法草案第五條的防護委員會等等，你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任委員？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個方向跟我們現在安衛辦法的修法方向也是一致的，所以為什麼在調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上的外部成員，在防護委員會這部分有三分之一是學者專家。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我現在跟秘書長報告，關於我們保障法草案第十九條之一，我看了一下第十九條之一草案還是由上級機關來監督，而不是由獨立的外部機制來監督，這到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員？這是我懷疑的一個點。當然您剛剛有提到安衛辦法，外部的學者不得少於三分之一，但是他主要受理的還是由副首長所召集、機關的副首長所召集，這是不是真的能夠有效的獨立？我想這部分再提供給秘書長參考一下，就是這個草案……"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實我們公務員都有一個救濟機制就是保訓會，例如霸凌如果申訴不成、如果不服的話，再申訴會在保訓會這邊。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的、好的。但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛，而第一層，如果我們能夠的話，當然是給予他完整的保護，因為我自己看了一下，我們對於勞工的保護就是越來越完整，譬如說有勞安問題的時候，勞動部有勞安署，而且有勞安署跟地方政府，甚至是一些民間團體組成的外部監督機制，所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工，對於勞工……"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果是勞工的話，他的第一層還是在企業內部，但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門，現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內，救濟的部分是到保訓會，其實是同樣的結構。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，至少我們機關內部在審查的時候能夠引入外部的監督者、外部學者或他機關的代表，能夠引入更多的代表，我覺得這樣才能更能保障公務員。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：否則真的很多職場霸凌等等是來自於自己內部或者是長官，我想這是現在實務上偶爾會發生的。","另外，我再請教一下關於職場霸凌的定義問題，我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性？我們有個定義是要持續性，對吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：關於這個持續性，現在有一個問題，我想請教一下，當然過往有很多判決，以前的判例現在是改成判決，很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念，但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人，在網路上po上去之後，我們又沒有權力叫他下架，這是不是屬於持續性的霸凌？"],["劉秘書長建忻：關於持續性，其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準，定義的部分主委比較了解，是不是請主委來說明？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那麻煩主委。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題，我們陸陸續續開了這麼多場各方的代表跟法制的徵詢，到底要不要只限於這個持續性？或者是說一次，但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人持續性更大的傷害？最後基於各方的代表還有包含……我們的代表裡面不只是法學者，還有很多很多是基層的公務人員，他們認為應該要把這種一次性的納入。重點就是霸凌，過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的，都是以持續性，但是現在霸凌的型態有越來越多種，所以如果一次就已經造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害，那也應該要入法，這就是後來為什麼我們在這個定義裡面，不是只有持續性，把一次性也納入的原因。以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，主委，我這邊再補充一下，因為我國不像歐洲有一個遺忘權這個法治概念，歐洲有遺忘權，你可以主張自己的遺忘權，要求網路上面或是新聞上面下架某些過往的東西，但因為我國目前沒有，所以如果在我們網路上po一個東西，它的影響可能是5年、10年、20年，甚至當時這個記者下的這個標題可能只是當時的社會風氣，可能三個月後大家發現狀況不是這樣，但是這個東西會持續在網路上讓大家搜尋得到。有時候有些刻意的人就會拿這個當作武器來修理他的同事，或是譬如說政治對手等等，會有這個問題，所以是不是在所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以例示或是列舉等等的方式去做一個補充？不是說持續性不重要，而是有某些狀況，他的行為雖然是一次性，他是即成犯，直接就做完了，但是他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠，可能麻煩用例示或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊，在此跟主委報告。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後我想說的是，還是一個重點，我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加，因為只有強大的公務員、好的人才來，國家才會越來越強大，因為今天不管誰執政，我都希望國家是強大的。這幾年公務員的錄取，其實來報考的人越來越少，我認為這其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂。","最後請教，如果機關違反的話，這個機關如果被裁罰，請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾？如果不公開，我們要怎麼落實，避免公務員被霸凌？主委。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，因為各機關還有我們保訓會自己會去調查，所以這個報告在安衛辦法裡面其實就有明白寫明這個必須要上網，保訓會目前的規劃也是，當然也會傾向是把他公開，因為這樣才能真的符合委員所提到的，那種效果才會擴散，大家才會更加的警惕，以上，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：在不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下，我們還是希望資訊能夠透明。如果機關首長被開罰，會不會影響到未來升遷？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，機關首長如果是政務人員，政治責任應該就是看社會輿論跟其任用者的判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是一般常任文官？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：一般常任文官基本上以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的，因為會留下紀錄。以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那沒問題，謝謝主委。如果有什麼問題，我們再麻煩主委日後能夠多溝通，我們還是希望公務員的保障非常重要，希望人才都來為國家服務。好，謝謝各位，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。剛剛吳宗憲委員有提到關於員工職場霸凌處理小組，或者在安衛辦法裡面所講的調查小組。因為調查小組裡面有訂一定的比例，外部成員的比例要大於二分之一，事實上，我們看到有些機關裡面的員工職場霸凌處理小組的成員，外部委員的比例其實是沒有大於二分之一，或者是根本沒有明定。這個部分我也希望考試院或者是保訓會，可以先通盤盤點各個部會機關裡面，自身所訂的員工職場霸凌處理小組中外部委員的比例及人數是多少。譬如我看到司法院根本也沒有訂所謂的外部委員，這個部分可能要在瞭解整個機關的情況之後，再來細緻化討論相關的外部成員比例會比較妥當，麻煩了，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564e1503cfbef2725d933769fbc08eef2e9e7f061fc5ac7c7dce4ab110b5714ccc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:57:48 - 10:08:07","影片長度":"00:10:19","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:57:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T10:08:07+08:00","duration":619,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.40159375,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.03409375,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.40096875,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.42659375,"end":135.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.75409375000001,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.58784375000002,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.21659375000002,"end":165.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.45659375000002,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.03034375000001,"end":167.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.37596875,"end":182.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.01534375,"end":182.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.55096875,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.58471875,"end":182.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.73659375000003,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.72784375,"end":184.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.65596875,"end":185.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.19596875000002,"end":191.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.59159375000002,"end":194.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.78534375,"end":273.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.50721875,"end":276.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.51096875,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.04596875000004,"end":283.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.23971875,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.59721875,"end":299.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.35534375000003,"end":320.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.85846875000004,"end":364.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.37909375000004,"end":367.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.71596875,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.54909375,"end":385.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.96221875000003,"end":490.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.66159375,"end":420.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.26221875000005,"end":494.04659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.29534375000003,"end":500.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.45034375000006,"end":510.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.0522187500001,"end":512.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.5078437500001,"end":512.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.6597187500001,"end":512.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.6765937499999,"end":514.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.0265937500001,"end":515.0559687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.66346875,"end":527.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.55284375,"end":521.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.1047187500001,"end":527.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.4253437500001,"end":543.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.67596875,"end":550.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.96596875,"end":581.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.08784375,"end":555.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.0915937500001,"end":557.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.93034375,"end":563.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.85971875,"end":584.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.6315937500001,"end":592.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.88346875,"end":594.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.53721875,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.0265937500001,"end":595.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.65471875,"end":604.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.8647187500001,"end":604.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.96596875,"end":605.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.0165937500001,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.0334687500001,"end":605.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.11784375,"end":605.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.97846875,"end":612.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.88471875,"end":611.9522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.96909375,"end":612.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.78721875,"end":616.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.17909375,"end":619.27596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.777,"end":8.38,"text":"謝謝主席 我請文化部次長好 有請李次長委員早安次長好昨天呢 我們教文有安排了考察就是到我們中正區一共是我們有三個場館包括了我們台灣文學館在台北的台灣文學基地以及即將啟用的台灣文學糧倉還有有我們台博館要"},{"start":33.876,"end":44.569,"text":"進行規劃再利用的昭和樓也就是未來可能是台博館的分館這三個文化的地景那我自己覺得對於即將要啟用的台灣文學糧倉是非常的期待那這個我說這是我昨天在台灣文學基地做的這個預手嘛"},{"start":52.378,"end":60.282,"text":"它是用回收再利用的材質然後裡面是放進了你可以自己挑選你喜歡的一段台灣文學的其中的一句話那我覺得這個設計是跟我們在地社區的互動是非常良好的覺得很肯定那即將要啟用的這個文學糧倉我想它的主要的服務對象是我們台灣的新興的文學創作者"},{"start":80.732,"end":86.697,"text":"然後甚至我們也鼓勵跨領域的創作例如說你的空間裡面它如果是戲劇的影音的相關的創作都可以來這裡來使用你的空間所以我想我們未來這個影運勢必在我們台灣文學社群界裡面會形成一個聯誼"},{"start":101.688,"end":107.415,"text":"也許有很多還是還在潛力猩猩在進入到我們的文學兩倉裡面的文學沙盒以後會遇到已經在市場上面已經比較能夠站起來的文學作家大家可以一起來相互的交會交流"},{"start":120.47,"end":134.685,"text":"所以我們相當的期待不過我想要提醒的是目前看起來你們的營運其實會有一點吃力因為台灣文學館在台北的兩個基地你們總共的人力工作人員是十位那"},{"start":135.746,"end":161.614,"text":"要去經營兩個據點所以你的文學兩章目前預計開放的時間是週末是閉館的有開館的時間是平日2到5早上10點到下午6點所以這個時間上對一般的民眾其實相當不友善那即便是對我們的創作者那可能時間也不一定配合得上或者是時間的長度不一定充足你們現在這兩個據點"},{"start":165.535,"end":191.02,"text":"每年的經費是多少大概是一千八百萬左右一千八百萬是文學糧倉對有加上文學基地嗎文學基地的話大概也是差不多的金額所以兩個所以加起來大概三千多萬對所以你一個基地的營運經費一年是一千多萬我是認為真的不夠"},{"start":194.884,"end":200.846,"text":"那既然好不容易我們眾所期待像我是國立台灣文學館開幕的時候我們是全家一起跑到台南去看然後我看了一次不夠之後再自己跟同學約了再特別搭車到台南去看所以對台北人來講這個我們稍微在現場我們是很羨慕台南我好不容易台北也有文學館的分館了所以呢"},{"start":218.072,"end":232.063,"text":"我們希望你們可以開幕以後營運在營運上面發現倘若我們需要來增加資源我們未來應該要讓他逐步來到位好請你們持續來關注那至於昭和樓我今天要給個具體的建議"},{"start":233.744,"end":239.027,"text":"因為昭和樓是2020年我擔任市議員的期間當時感謝文史工作者林宗奎跟蕭文傑老師提供了一些關於這個場所的新市政所以我是這一個文資的提報人當時是我到台北市文資審議會現場去報告的那後來也順利的通過歷史建物的審定"},{"start":256.636,"end":283.314,"text":"那后面在我们中央的产权一度从审计部可能一度要归还给国产署那最后我非常的庆幸欢庆听到它现在是交到了我们台博馆的手上目前也在进行规划在利用的这个审定对不对我想要给一个具体的建议因为我们昨天去看的台湾文学粮仓它就在华山文化园区步行大概两分钟"},{"start":284.315,"end":299.296,"text":"那昭和樓台婆館未來這個分館更是緊鄰華山文創園區所以這可能是全台灣各縣市裡面相當罕見的很密集的藝文聚落"},{"start":300.444,"end":320.176,"text":"在一個步行五分鐘之內我們有你們文化部的華山應文園區有我們台灣文學館的分館有台博館的分館所以我認為未來這個台博館的分館昭和樓在做規劃的時候務必要去考量它跟周邊聚落"},{"start":320.956,"end":345.914,"text":"的聚合性例如說華山園區裡面有這個音樂展演廳它裡面有電影院那你文學糧商有文學沙盒那這個昭和樓它有沒有可能未來成為一個音樂沙盒就是培養潛力新星因為能夠到華山裡面Legacy去表演專場的都是一定具有一定的市場性"},{"start":346.554,"end":367.348,"text":"所以我想這個因為都還在討論當中我想未來希望你們可以邀請相關的年輕世代的藝文社群大家可以一起來討論這個絕對會是未來我們百年難得一見很重要的藝文聚落好不好邀請藝文社群來一起來討論它未來的可能性謝謝委員的建議那這個邀請"},{"start":368.769,"end":382.565,"text":"周遭或者是藝文團體文化人士的共同討論這一定會做那只是先初步跟部長因為台博的它是台博的分館可是台博現在業務裡面還真是沒有涉及到音樂這一塊"},{"start":383.646,"end":394.108,"text":"沒有錯所以我就是要提醒你們文化部的角色是因為如果是從台博的本位思考的話一定是以台博在中正區台北好幾個分館一定是以台博各個分館之間的搭配來做設置但是我提醒你們必須要以揭霍文化聚落的角度來去思考這一個據點竟然花了那麼多資源把它變成歷史兼務花那麼多錢重新修復要去活化使用了"},{"start":411.112,"end":414.473,"text":"他應該要對這個聚落的整體藝文發展我覺得他要有提出他的貢獻所以這個請你們也納入來討論好 最後是有關於我們今天的世界文化遺產潛力點首先我要說台灣因為中國的因素"},{"start":428.399,"end":452.793,"text":"平平對台灣打壓所以無法加入聯合國組織但是台灣沒有因此減少在世界上面的影響力以醫療來說台灣沒有加入WHO但是台灣在國際的醫療貢獻是大家都肯定的尤其在防疫期間之後世界各國包括北美包括歐洲包括亞太各個地區都是很多國際組織"},{"start":454.494,"end":469.322,"text":"科研单位来到台湾要跟我们一起来去学习我们的防疫经验而台湾的文化也一样即便我们没有加入联合国教科文组织但是台湾的文化在世界上的影响一点也不会因此减少所以呢我们现在要讨论的"},{"start":473.604,"end":489.629,"text":"是我們對於我們自己的執行計畫有沒有可以再精進的地方我們台灣是在92年文建會實行的世界文化已知潛力點開始推動由專家學者跟地方政府來推薦然後你們領選總共是18處嘛18處裡面到今天114年有7處還沒有完成你們的文本"},{"start":503.873,"end":525.735,"text":"文本的亂寫嗎?這個已經算非常非常基礎的資料,所以我不知道怎麼說,怎麼回事啊?15年的時間沒有辦法完成因為這個部分都還是有那個潛力點的主管機關我了解,所以這15年的期間你們跟潛力點的主管機關斷線了嗎?"},{"start":528.831,"end":542.29,"text":"應該講說目前比較難完成的是像大屯火山群然後這個是內政部還有因為他又不是只有內政部主管因為還跨了新北市政府還有台北市政府這種跨單位的"},{"start":543.772,"end":566.048,"text":"就是一個潛力點跨了兩三個單位的通常在文本的篆理上會跨單位我們都了解但我想15年的時間這個協調溝通總是應該串上線的趕快把它補上好不好哪一個地方政府不願意配合你們也可以提出來我們大家一起來協助溝通所以這個是第一點那第二個是"},{"start":567.27,"end":575.472,"text":"我們現在的網站因為我們還是要邁向國際你的網站這第一頁首頁是全英文可是除了左邊的第一個標籤以外從第二個標籤開始點進去裡面通通是中文這個市長你們恐怕也蠻久沒看這個網頁我知道你們有在陸續更新沒有完成所以趕快好不好我知道之前慢了多有時間可以把它完成更新"},{"start":598.686,"end":612.198,"text":"目前在改版中啦就剛好在改版中所以那個只有維持封面是18個點啦這15年來一個點都沒有增加所以這些基礎資料早就應該要完成盡速去改善好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝吳佩奕委員好 次長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我請文化部次長。"],["主席：有請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早安。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長好。昨天我們教文有安排考察，到中正區一共有三個場館，包括臺灣文學館在臺北的臺灣文學基地，以及即將要啟用的臺灣文學糧倉，還有由臺博館進行規劃再利用的昭和樓，也就是未來的臺博館分館，這三個文化地景。我自己對於即將要啟用的臺灣文學糧倉非常的期待，這是我昨天在臺灣文學基地做的御守，它是用回收再利用的材質，裡面你可以放進自己挑選喜歡的臺灣文學的其中一句話，這個設計跟我們在地社區的互動是非常良好的，我覺得很肯定。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：即將要啟用的文學糧倉，它主要的服務對象是我們臺灣的新興文學創作者，甚至我們也鼓勵跨領域的創作。例如，你的空間裡面如果是戲劇的、影音的相關創作，都可以來這裡使用空間。我想未來的營運勢必會在我們臺灣文學社群界裡面形成一個漣漪，也許有很多還在潛力新星，在進入文學糧倉裡面的文學沙盒以後，會遇到已經在市場上面比較能夠站起來的文學作家，大家可以一起相互的交會、交流，所以我們相當的期待。","不過我想要提醒的是，目前看起來，你們的營運其實會有一點吃力，因為臺灣文學館在臺北的兩個基地，你們總共的人力、工作人員是10位，要去經營兩個據點，所以文學糧倉目前預計開放的時間，週末是閉館的，開館時間是平日二到五早上10點到下午6點。這個時間對一般民眾其實相當不友善，即便是對我們的創作者，可能時間也不一定配合得上，或者是時間的長度不一定充足。你們現在這兩個據點每年的經費是多少？"],["李次長靜慧：大概是1,800萬左右。"],["吳委員沛憶：1,800萬是文學糧倉？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：有加上文學基地嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：文學基地大概也是差不多的金額，1,500到1,800萬。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以兩個加起來大概三千多萬，一個基地的營運經費一年是一千多萬，我認為真的不夠，既然好不容易我們眾所期待，像國立臺灣文學館開幕的時候，我們是全家一起跑到臺南去看，我看了一次不夠，之後再自己跟同學約了，再特別搭車到臺南去看。對臺北人來講，召委在現場，我們很羨慕臺南，好不容易臺北也有文學館的分館了，所以我們希望開幕以後，在營運上面倘若發現需要增加資源，未來應該要讓它逐步到位，請你們持續關注。","至於昭和樓，我今天要給一個具體的建議，昭和樓是在2020年，我擔任市議員的期間，當時感謝文史工作者凌宗魁和蕭文杰老師提供了一些關於這個場所的新事證，我是這個文資的提報人，當時是我到臺北市文資審議會現場報告的，後來也順利地通過歷史建物的審定。後面在我們中央的產權從審計部可能一度要歸還給國產署，最後我非常的慶幸、歡慶聽到它現在交到了臺博館的手上，目前也在進行規劃再利用的審定，對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：對，沒錯。"],["吳委員沛憶：我想要給一個具體的建議，因為我們昨天去看的臺灣文學糧倉就在華山文創園區步行大概2分鐘，昭和樓、臺博館未來的分館更是緊鄰華山文創園區，這可能是全臺灣各縣市裡面相當罕見的、很密集的藝文聚落。在步行5分鐘之內，我們有文化部的華山藝文園區、有臺灣文學館的分館、有臺博館的分館，所以我認為未來臺博館的分館昭和樓在做規劃的時候，務必要去考量它跟周邊聚落的聚合性。例如，華山園區裡面有音樂展演廳、電影院，文學糧倉有文學沙盒，昭和樓未來有沒有可能成為一個音樂沙盒，培養潛力新星？因為能夠到華山裡面Legacy表演專場的都具有一定的市場性，這都還在討論當中，未來希望你們可以邀請相關的年輕世代藝文社群，大家可以一起來討論，這個絕對會是百年難得一見很重要的藝文聚落，邀請藝文社群一起來討論它未來的可能性，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的建議，邀請週遭或者是藝文團體、文化人士共同討論，這一定會做，只是先初步跟委員報告，因為它是臺博的分館，可是臺博現在的業務裡面還真是沒有涉及到音樂這一塊，所以這個我們可能要再討論一下。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，我就是要提醒文化部的角色，因為如果是從臺博的本位思考的話，臺博在中正區臺北好幾個分館，一定是以臺博各個分館之間的搭配設置，但是我提醒你們必須要以街廓、文化聚落的角度思考，這個據點既然花了那麼多資源，把它變成歷史建物，花那麼多錢重新修復，要去活化使用時，對這個聚落的整體藝文發展，我覺得它應該要提出它的貢獻，所以這個請你們也納入討論。"],["李次長靜慧：好，收到，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後，有關今天討論的世界文化遺產潛力點，首先我要說，臺灣因為中國因素，因為頻頻對臺灣打壓，所以無法加入聯合國組織，但臺灣並沒有因此減少在世界上的影響力。以醫療來說，臺灣沒有加入WHO，但臺灣在國際的醫療貢獻是大家都肯定的。尤其在防疫期間、防疫之後，世界各國包括北美、包括歐洲、包括亞太各地區，都有很多國際組織、科研單位來到臺灣，要學習我們的防疫經驗。臺灣的文化也一樣，即便我們沒有加入聯合國教科文組織，但臺灣文化在世界上的影響一點也不會因此減少。所以我們現在要討論的是，我們自己的執行計畫有沒有可以再精進的地方？臺灣從92年，由文建會實行的世界文化遺址潛力點開始推動，由專家學者跟地方政府推薦，經你們遴選總共有18處。這18處到今天114年，有7處還沒有完成你們的文本……是文本的撰寫嗎？這是非常、非常基礎的資料，所以我不知道該怎麼說。怎麼回事？十五年的時間沒有辦法完成？"],["李次長靜慧：因為這部分還是由該潛力點的主管機關……"],["吳委員沛憶：我了解，所以這十五年你們跟潛力點的主管機關斷線了嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：目前比較難完成的，像大屯火山群由內政部主管，但並不只有內政部主管，因為還跨了新北市政府、臺北市政府。這種一個潛力點跨了兩、三個單位的，通常在文本的撰寫上……"],["吳委員沛憶：跨單位我們都了解，但十五年的時間，協調溝通總應該要串上線……"],["李次長靜慧：我們會繼續努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：趕快把它補上，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：哪個地方政府不願意配合，你們也可以提出來，讓我們大家一起來協助溝通。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：這是第一點。第二，現在的網站……因為我們還是要邁向國際，你的網站首頁是全英文，可是除了左邊的第一個標籤外，從第二個標籤開始點進去，裡面通通是中文！次長，你們恐怕也滿久沒看網頁。我知道你們有在陸續更新，但還沒完成，所以趕快，好不好？我知道之前慢了！多少時間可以完成更新？"],["李次長靜慧：目前在改版中，剛好在改版中，所以只維持封面……"],["吳委員沛憶：18個點，這十五年來一個點都沒有增加！這些基礎資料早就應該要完成，儘速去改善，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，次長請回。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5644af4eba83264c1459f0f8eeb1de8c89ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc3ff16b6b2a727ff65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:46:12 - 09:57:39","影片長度":"00:11:27","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:46:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:57:39+08:00","duration":687,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.176593750000002,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.70284375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.394718750000003,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.469718750000002,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.832218750000003,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.38846875,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.64034375,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.713468750000004,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.789093750000006,"end":65.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.48471875,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.27721875,"end":104.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.07721875,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.11596875000001,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.41971875,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.93409375,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.08596875,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.56221875000001,"end":110.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.39221875000001,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.79221875,"end":126.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.12096875,"end":129.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.85471875000002,"end":129.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.01909375,"end":135.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.18284375000002,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.29596875000001,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.76346875000002,"end":152.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.58596875,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.00284375,"end":157.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.09096875,"end":160.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.82471875000002,"end":161.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.81159375000001,"end":165.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.06846875000002,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.92909375000002,"end":168.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.71346875,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.72596875000002,"end":170.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.16721875000002,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.41784375,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":252.93659375000001,"end":257.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.52659375,"end":257.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":257.91471875,"end":306.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.93159375,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.69721875000005,"end":299.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.83221875000004,"end":299.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.86596875000004,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":307.20659375,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.17659375,"end":311.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.22284375000004,"end":311.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":316.20096875,"end":323.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.97221875,"end":380.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.88284375,"end":412.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.41784375000003,"end":440.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.68409375000005,"end":439.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.02534375000005,"end":483.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.24659375000005,"end":484.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.29284375000003,"end":484.30971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":484.96784375000004,"end":484.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.98471875,"end":495.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.53159375,"end":498.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.74221875,"end":497.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.75909375000003,"end":497.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.63659375000003,"end":505.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.18409375000005,"end":536.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.02284375,"end":546.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.99596875,"end":577.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.6115937500001,"end":595.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.0390937500001,"end":596.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":596.4778437500001,"end":643.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.7478437500001,"end":597.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":643.77846875,"end":648.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.9084687500001,"end":658.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":653.3972187500001,"end":653.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.1853437500001,"end":664.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.87221875,"end":679.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.8234687500001,"end":680.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":682.15221875,"end":682.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.16909375,"end":682.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":682.18596875,"end":684.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":684.5990937500001,"end":687.2822187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.48,"end":33.14,"text":"劉秘書長辛苦了雖然說我待會有第一個問題我就要先請教您之後還會再請教蔡主委保証會蔡主委以及權事部的懷恤懷次長首先我想先請教"},{"start":34.597,"end":63.181,"text":"劉秘書長因為本席其實一直都很關心有關於在國家考試裡面的出題委員和命題委員他們的費用調漲的問題就是能夠提高的問題那麼所以我在去年的時候其實就已經詢問過考試院那麼有沒有考慮要把這個隨著物價的調整而且我們這是十幾年來都沒有調整過的命題委員還有月券委員的費用"},{"start":63.981,"end":91.024,"text":"進行合理的調整請問就是考試院現在的有在做這方面的規劃了嗎是謝謝委員長期來對這個議題的關心那跟也剛好跟委員報告就是現在正在進行的考試院的院會其實就已經把這個案子排上去那我們預計目前的方案應該是用未來兩年時間逐步的把審題命題月卷等等還有事務"},{"start":92.826,"end":106.38,"text":"人員的費用分兩年的順序把它調高那這個案子今天通過之後我們暫時還不會公佈因為依照相關的法規這個要送到行政院去核准"},{"start":107.017,"end":123.214,"text":"是 那可以先透露一下大概會調高的幅度是多少嗎因為我們看到就是從明年開始的國考的報名費是調漲25.8%嘛是那麼所以接下來像生命體育費 月券費呢調整的比例"},{"start":124.357,"end":152.572,"text":"這個比例我查一下會後我再提供給委員請問為什麼要兩年才能夠達到你們所謂的要求他應該是分批調整啦然後他希望說不要一下造成考選基金太大的負擔所以他先就委員關心的像命題月卷這個部分會先做調整那有一些市場的事務人員的部分會第二階段會再跟上來所以我們就是說一下調整可能增加的支出會對考選基金造成比較大的負擔"},{"start":153.112,"end":177.589,"text":"是 所以現在還不知道說你明年已經有方案了嘛對 我們應該是預定應該明年就會上路啦然後隨便提費呢 要調漲多少%這個我數字要踩 因為我今天資料沒有帶過來好 那就麻煩請我會後再提供我請考卷部提供給委員好的好的 謝謝秘書長然後另外就是說有關於這個預算價的問題因為本席在這個這次我有特別提"},{"start":178.49,"end":201.879,"text":"提案要修法公務人員任用法第28條之一然後將原來只有育嬰假請育嬰可以留置庭薪那麼也可以增加就是由育孫也可以留置庭薪我剛其實進來的時候有聽到黃旭次長有說這個部分似乎不需要修法直接修辦法就可以了"},{"start":202.259,"end":224.701,"text":"可是呢本席的看法是認為說其實我們應該要把這件事情提升它法律位階但在法律裡面明定那麼未來這個就是這個主管機關的責任你們就應該要依法律來訂定相關的辦法那麼我認為這樣的法律有這樣的法律授權依據那未來行政機關也比較好辦事否則可能"},{"start":225.602,"end":252.41,"text":"不知道會不會換了一個政黨然後又換了一套做法那麼同時這個事實上就算是我們現在明定在法律裡面有預算有預算價相關的事情細則還是由權序部這裡去擬定相關的辦法是考試院還是權序部要去擬定相關的辦法所以我個人認為說這樣的修法還是有必要的那請問次長您的看法您是否同意我的見解"},{"start":253.09,"end":267.693,"text":"跟委員報告就是說那個委員的提案方向我們都支持只是說後來我們在看這個文字的時候覺得因為嬰就是小孩子的意思就是幼兒的意思那我們也仔細就看過您提案的這個文字內容"},{"start":268.254,"end":281.172,"text":"因為委員是在意的是我們目前留職庭新辦法上面因為留職庭新辦法也是它的法源依據也是來自於公園任用法的法源依據是它已經有法源依據那您這邊是比較認為說我們有給它設的但書條件覺得這不OK所以我們部裡面也認為"},{"start":286.318,"end":305.954,"text":"這個方向是可以尊重的所以我們就認為說或許呢如果在這種情況下這個本法可以不用修正但是我們會把您所在意的這個部分因為那是行政規則我們就直接把它修掉了那這樣就不會那個所謂那個但書那部分就整個拿掉未來它就是完全跟那個"},{"start":307.27,"end":321.947,"text":"就是育嬰的概念 嬰就是發繁孫當然我們還尊重最後因為這是立法政策的問題就是說基本上方向我們都認為可以去做只是說技術上我們認為我們很快就可以把它出來"},{"start":322.227,"end":325.929,"text":"其實市長說明我想就說我們修法的部分因為今年提案了接下來可能也會排審那麼我還是非常希望我們這個案子能夠三讀通過那當然我也很希望全序部就能夠趕快加緊腳步了如果說您說修現在的辦法就可以做的話那就可以趕快來檢討相關的辦法是不是可以放寬那個遇孫的條件那麼這個也希望全序部能夠盡速的提出相關辦法的修正案"},{"start":349.5,"end":357.622,"text":"好 那麼接下來有關於職場霸凌的部分呢我想要幾個問題想要就叫這個保訓會主委不好意思 但是先仁總 先是仁總那麼因為其實從去年以來我們看到有好多機關接連發生主管霸凌公務人員的案件那麼所以呢仁總在去年其實也成立了職場霸凌案件的通報平台那麼本席曾經有函詢仁總有關於現在這個通報"},{"start":378.387,"end":395.62,"text":"平台的通報以及處理情形就霸凌平台的通報及處理情形的狀況為何那麼任總在3月27號的時候有回覆給我目前所收到的案件數那麼以及進入調查程序的數量那麼總共有327件收到327件進入調查程序71件然後只有3件是成立職場霸凌案還有138件在處理那本席想問的就是說又三個月過去了"},{"start":408.109,"end":412.428,"text":"那么到目前为止有多少件就是你们已经有收了多少件"},{"start":413.784,"end":440.026,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前統計到5月31號就是說從我們霸凌平台成立去年12月13號到5月31號我們收件收了485件那目前已經結案的案件有358件那處理中的有79件測案的有48件那成立的呢成立霸凌案件有20件"},{"start":441.067,"end":462.036,"text":"已經從3件跳到20件所以代表說你們現在成立這個霸凌通報平台我認為其實是有發揮一些作用的畢竟可以從這個通報平台當中知道到底有多少的公務員覺得說他在職場上面受到霸凌那這部分的話我也希望說人種能夠儘速的將霸凌"},{"start":465.077,"end":481.97,"text":"平台處理的結果要做適當的公布那麼甚至之後成立的案件他的態樣是怎麼樣你可以去識別化但是可以把這些案件可以公布出來然後讓各機關各公務員都知道如果說有遇到這種職長霸凌的情況是要如何這應該是保訓會的業務嗎還是任總對這個其實我們只要審議結果確定以後那"},{"start":492.158,"end":496.211,"text":"都會公告在這個我們的這個公開資訊裡面是"},{"start":498.709,"end":516.02,"text":"所以這個是就像委員說這是後續的分析什麼的目前是我們都有在做好的OK好那就希望你們都再努力那麼接下來就是有關於在這次的草案裡面其實有看到不管是19條之一19條之二其實都有針對所謂機關首長經過任地職場霸凌的話那會處罰還那麼當然剛剛黃國昌委員有提到在這草案裡面看起來其實對於機關首長的定義不是很清楚"},{"start":528.288,"end":546.374,"text":"那不仅是机关首长定义不清楚之外,还有对于所谓负责人员,你负责人员跟机关首长到底有什么区别?请问负责人员跟机关首长有什么区别?以及负责人员以及机关首长他的涵盖范围到哪边?像科长啊,局长,司长算不算?"},{"start":548.015,"end":576.966,"text":"跟委員說明機關首長就是 誠如我剛剛這邊所講依照中央機關組織基準法首長他就是明定在這個各機關的組織法裡面的那個只有一個但是負責人他就是是現場的這個狀況所以他可能是從科長他可能到司長他也可能是到可能是主任或者是次長那主要就是負責人是指在公務人員執行職務的現場他有比較"},{"start":577.726,"end":603.588,"text":"高度的關係性然後他代替機關首長在行使這個監督管理的這個角色跟功能的人所以呢這個兩者的差異是不一樣那當然機關首長在特殊的在一些情況底下他也可能就是負責人是順便說未來按照這個主委的意思就是說可能負責人他會有不同層級的而且也可能會有多重的負責人"},{"start":604.349,"end":623.754,"text":"那麼是不是未來可以就是定立一個類似SPOP的這種做法到底在什麼樣的業務底下他的負責人是誰然後他的首長是誰否則的話其實對於很多的這個可能有就是總是公務員裡面有高低階的這樣的一個職等那會不會高職等就認為說我其實"},{"start":626.175,"end":648.25,"text":"很莫名其妙的就被視為是負責人到底所謂的監督關係我覺得這都不是很清楚那麼因此呢本席也希望就是說保訊會在這個部分可以把它定的更清楚或是說未來能夠提供一些相關的案例標準然後可以讓大家有所參考有所依循"},{"start":649.356,"end":676.849,"text":"跟委員報告就是各機關都有分層負責明細表那當然機關首長這個如果從這個最廣義來講他就是他可能會被苛責的範圍很多但是呢基本上各機關的這個授權或是這個什麼時候是屬於誰是負責人這件事情都有這個分層負責明細表就會列不過非常謝謝委員的提醒就是說未來我們在指引跟通韓的裡面我們會特別的去強化"},{"start":677.69,"end":679.334,"text":"請各機關要注意這一點 謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝翁委員那個 劉秘長 因為我看你臉色真的沒有"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":373,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（9時46分）劉秘書長辛苦了，雖然待會第一個問題我就要先請教您，之後還會再請教保訓會蔡主委以及銓敘部的懷敍次長。","首先，我想先請教劉秘書長，因為本席一直都很關心有關於國家考試的出題委員和命題委員的費用是否調漲、提高的問題，所以我在去年就已經詢問過考試院，有沒有考慮隨著物價的調整，而且這是十幾年來都沒有調整過的，將命題委員及閱卷委員的費用進行合理的調整，請問考試院現在有在做這方面的規劃了嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員長期以來對這個議題的關心，也剛好跟委員報告，現在正在進行的考試院院會，其實就已經把這個案子排上去，我們預計目前的方案應該是用未來兩年時間逐步地把審題、命題、閱卷等等，以及試務人員的費用，分兩年的順序把它調高。這個案子今天通過之後，我們暫時還不會公布，因為依照相關的法規，這個要送到行政院核准。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。可以先透露一下大概會調高的幅度是多少嗎？因為我們看到從明年開始的國考報名費是調漲25.8%，所以接下來像是命題費、閱卷費調整的比例會是如何？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個比例我查一下，會後我再提供給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問為什麼要兩年才能夠達到你們所謂的調整目標？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這應該是分批調整啦，他希望不要一下造成考選基金太大的負擔，像是委員關心的命題、閱卷等等，他們會先就這個部分做調整，有一些試場事務人員的部分，第二階段會再跟上來，也就是說一下就全部調整，可能增加的支出會對考選基金造成比較大的負擔。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，你應該已經有方案了嘛，預計……"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，我們預定應該明年就會上路了。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以命題費要調漲多少percent？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個數字我要查，因為我今天資料沒有帶過來。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就麻煩請會後再提供給我。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我會後請考選部再提供給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的、好的，謝謝秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：另外就是有關於育孫假的問題，本席這次有特別提案要修公務人員任用法第二十八條之一，將原來只有育嬰假可以請育嬰留職停薪，增加育孫也可以留職停薪。我剛剛進來時有聽到懷敍次長說這個部分似乎不需要修法，直接修辦法就可以了，可是本席的看法是認為我們應該把這件事情提升至法律位階。在法律裡面明定，那麼未來這就是主管機關的責任，你們就應該要依法律來訂定相關的辦法，我認為有這樣的法律授權依據，未來行政機關也比較好辦事，否則不知道會不會換了一個政黨又換了一套作法。事實上，就算是我們現在明定在法律裡面有育孫假，相關的施行細則還是由銓敘部去擬定相關的辦法，是考試院或是銓敘部要去擬定相關的辦法，所以我個人認為這樣的修法還是有必要的。請問次長，您的看法如何？您是否同意我的見解？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，委員的提案方向我們都支持，只是我們在看這個文字的時候，因為「嬰」就是小孩子的意思，就是幼兒的意思，我們也仔細看過您提案的文字內容，因為委員在意的是目前留職停薪辦法的法源依據也是來自於公務人員任用法，已經有法源依據，而您這邊是比較認為我們設的但書條件不OK，我們部裡面也認為委員的這個方向是可以尊重的，所以我們就認為，或許在這種情況下，本法可以不用修正。但是我們會把您所在意的部分直接修掉，這樣所謂的但書部分就整個拿掉，未來就是育嬰的概念，因為「嬰」就是包含「孫」……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。"],["懷次長敍：當然如果大院，我們還是尊重最後的……因為這是立法政策的問題，基本上這個方向我們都認為可以去做，只是在技術上，我們認為很快就可以把它……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝次長的說明。我想我們修法的部分，因為今年提案了，接下來可能也會排審，我還是非常希望這個案子能夠三讀通過，當然我也很希望銓敘部能夠趕快加緊腳步了，如果您說修現在的辦法就可以做的話，那就可以趕快來檢討相關的辦法是不是可以放寬育孫的條件，也希望銓敘部能夠儘速地提出相關辦法的修正案。","接下來有關於職場霸凌的部分，我有幾個問題想要就教保訓會主委，不好意思，應該先是人總。去年以來，我們看到有好多機關接連發生主管霸凌公務人員的案件，所以人總在去年也成立了職場霸凌案件的通報平臺，本席曾經函詢人總關於通報平臺的通報以及處理情形，就是霸凌平臺的通報及處理情形的狀況為何？人總在3月27號有回復給我目前所收到的案件數以及進入調查程序的數量，總共收到327件，進入調查程序71件，只有3件是成立職場霸凌案，還有138件在處理。本席想問的是，又3個月過去了，到目前為止你們已經收了多少件？"],["陳處長月春：跟委員報告，我們目前統計到5月31號，就是從我們霸凌平臺成立，自去年12月13號到5月31號，我們收件收了485件，目前已經結案的案件有358件，處理中的有79件，撤案的有48件。"],["翁委員曉玲：成立霸凌的案件呢？"],["陳處長月春：成立霸凌的案件有20件。"],["翁委員曉玲：已經從3件跳到20件？"],["陳處長月春：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以代表你們成立這個霸凌通報平臺其實有發揮一些作用，畢竟可以從通報平臺當中知道，到底有多少的公務員覺得他在職場上面受到霸凌。這個部分我也希望人總能夠儘速將霸凌平臺處理的結果做適當的公布，甚至關於成立案件的態樣是怎麼樣，你可以去識別化，並且可以把這些案件公布出來，然後讓各機關公務員都知道如果遇到這種職場霸凌情況的時候要如何處理，這應該是保訓會的業務嗎？還是人總？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：報告委員，對，其實只要審議結果確定以後都會公告在我們的公開資訊裡面，就像委員說的，後續的分析等等目前我們都有在做。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，希望你們能夠再努力。","接下來，在這次的草案裡面有看到，不管是第十九條之一、第十九條之二，其實都有針對機關首長經過認定職場霸凌的話會處罰鍰，不過剛剛黃國昌委員也有提到，在這個草案裡面對於機關首長的定義不是很清楚，不僅是機關首長定義不清楚之外，還有所謂的負責人員，請問負責人員跟機關首長有什麼區別？以及負責人員、機關首長的涵蓋範圍到哪邊，像科長、局長、司長算不算？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員說明，機關首長誠如我剛剛在這邊所講，依照中央機關組織基準法，首長明定在各機關的組織法裡面，這只有一個；但負責人就是視現場的狀況，所以他可能是從科長、到司長，也可能到主秘或者是次長，主要來說，負責人是指在公務人員執行職務的現場有比較高度的關係性，並代替機關首長行使監督管理角色跟功能的人，所以兩者的差異是不一樣。當然，機關首長在一些特殊的情況底下也可能就是負責人。"],["翁委員曉玲：按照主委的意思就是，負責人可能會有不同層級的，而且也可能會有多重的負責人。那麼未來是不是可以訂立一個類似SOP的作法，關於到底在什麼樣業務底下的負責人是誰、首長是誰？否則的話，因為公務員裡面有高低階的職等，會不會高職等就莫名其妙地被視為是負責人？所謂的監督關係我覺得都不是很清楚，因此，本席也希望保訓會在這部分可以把它訂得更清楚，或是未來能夠提供一些相關的案例、標準讓大家有所參考、有所依循。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，各機關都有分層負責明細表，而機關首長如果從最廣義來講，他可能會被課責的範圍很多，但是基本上，各機關的授權或者什麼時候誰是負責人的這件事情都有分層負責明細表會明列。不過非常謝謝委員的提醒，未來我們在指引跟通函裡面會特別去強化，請各機關要注意這一點，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員。","劉秘書長，因為我看你臉色真的沒有很好，你是不是考慮請假？我們知道因為……"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒關係，委員，讓我把這個任務完成，謝謝。"],["主席：真的嗎？因為我們都知道你真的很有心希望完成……"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果我等一下不舒服再跟委員報告，我再跟您告假好了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，因為我看你的臉色，希望你如果真的……"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該有慢慢恢復。"],["主席：好，謝謝秘書長。","接下來我們請翁曉玲委員代理主席。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：現在有請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162258","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162258","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5641d07678d555c75f533769fbc08eef2e947c2ef1f362baa4af9a50da7f8c86c4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:42:45 - 09:57:42","影片長度":"00:14:57","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:42:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:57:42+08:00","duration":897,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.218468750000003,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.50909375,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.91721875,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.96346875,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.61159375,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.25159375,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.03346875,"end":173.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.05034375000002,"end":173.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.08409375000002,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.10096875000002,"end":173.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.13471875000002,"end":173.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.16846875000002,"end":173.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.18534375000002,"end":173.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.52284375000002,"end":180.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.40784375,"end":200.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.38346875000002,"end":288.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.20096875,"end":305.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.51471875000004,"end":334.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.48534375,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.37534375,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.68096875000003,"end":350.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.09846875,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.96159375,"end":373.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.01909375,"end":382.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.10346875000005,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.47784375000003,"end":380.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.91221875,"end":409.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.85721875,"end":415.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.51034375,"end":415.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.59471875,"end":466.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.13471875000005,"end":417.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.04471875,"end":426.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.03409375,"end":466.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.02971875000003,"end":480.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.01096875,"end":480.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.74909375000004,"end":484.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.76596875,"end":481.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.77409375,"end":483.92159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.66409375,"end":510.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.55846875000003,"end":487.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.02721875000003,"end":515.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.59659375,"end":511.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.19909375,"end":517.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.3003437500001,"end":517.4522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.4522187499999,"end":532.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.7297187500001,"end":523.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.2397187500001,"end":528.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.83409375,"end":532.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.7578437500001,"end":532.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.79159375,"end":532.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.9097187500001,"end":532.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.97721875,"end":532.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.8547187500001,"end":533.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.97284375,"end":534.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.34409375,"end":534.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.64784375,"end":534.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.66471875,"end":534.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.4240937500001,"end":539.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.8415937500001,"end":565.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.7734687500001,"end":575.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.18596875,"end":648.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.41471875,"end":652.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.67159375,"end":711.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.98721875,"end":717.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.1428437500001,"end":727.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.74409375,"end":729.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.12784375,"end":736.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.4140937500001,"end":775.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.03409375,"end":736.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.7722187500001,"end":738.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.98721875,"end":739.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.94784375,"end":798.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.80721875,"end":784.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":798.6909687500001,"end":805.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.06971875,"end":815.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.3303437500001,"end":811.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.1359687500001,"end":842.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":842.6840937500001,"end":846.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.97471875,"end":879.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":879.5053437500001,"end":888.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.71471875,"end":892.85346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.799,"end":19.321,"text":"謝謝主席,有請文化部李靜慧理事長好,有請理事長"},{"start":26.253,"end":40.986,"text":"次長早第36屆金曲獎即將在本月底舉行頒獎典禮這次有最佳華語女歌手入圍者魏如萱小姐入圍當然希望大家都可以順利得獎"},{"start":41.767,"end":52.832,"text":"他的入圍專輯裡面就有一首歌指黏土的MV裡面有描繪當下流行的AI話題由此可見其實藝術與AI還有文化之間的關係日漸緊密除了AI成為了創作的主題之外也可能成為創作工具的角色之一和文化藝術之間的交集可能會越來越密切本席曾經在質詢的時候速度的來關切"},{"start":66.658,"end":95.176,"text":"文化艺术跟AI之间的竞合关系那近期艺文界有关注的焦点呢则是在于文化部组举办的各种奖项啊奖补助的计划到底能不能接受AI协作甚至是直接由AI生成的作品来参加那我们特别检视了金曲奖奖励要点跟报名须知我们发现呢完全没有注明到底AI协作或AI生成的作品可不可以报名参加"},{"start":96.416,"end":124.414,"text":"那我们也觉得很奇怪报名须知完全也没有提是怎么样欢迎大家用AI来写作还是不欢迎可以不可以完全没有但是我们也回去查了发现第35届的时候讲得很清楚就说参考葛莱美奖等国际奖项AI技术可以辅助但如果你完全使用的话可能就不行"},{"start":125.168,"end":144.875,"text":"那我想因為有非常多人在關心嘛接下來可能講像這個出來了有人哭人笑可能這個問題會更嚴重請問次長第36屆金女獎的報名作品我們是不是依循第35屆新聞稿提到的原則可以使用AI作為輔助但不可以完全使用AI技術生成作品是不是這樣"},{"start":145.866,"end":157.39,"text":"對 一樣維持這樣的原則就當作工具可以可是因為他沒有所謂的著作權人格所以這完全是 聯席35屆嘛對不對謝謝你確定來說明但是如果這個原則已經確定了你們為什麼遲遲不修改獎勵要點跟報名須知呢你們為什麼不把這個規定明確化呢讓大家可以有規範可以質詢為什麼為什麼不修改進去啊"},{"start":173.516,"end":199.957,"text":"好那這部分我想如果有這個樣的需求我們還是可以在下一次的要點裡面這有點可惜因為都已經快要頒獎了6月28號那我們來看其實我幫市長跟文化部的同仁做了一點功課其實金曲獎只是其中一個案例我想文化部為了鼓勵文化產業這個我們也支持有很多的獎項補助但是對於AI生成或者是AI的創作"},{"start":201.448,"end":217.39,"text":"大家的這個相關的規範可以說是十分不一致啦那我這邊請次長看一下文化黑潮的台灣圖像角色IP品牌發展真案要點就宰明得非常清楚說AI技術可以作為輔助創作"},{"start":218.952,"end":244.868,"text":"製作流程的工具完全使用AI技術生成的話他還想得很棒他還說不是本真案支持的對象他還說你可以用但是我們不是要支持這個所以你如果有用這個技術的話你要主動揭露你要提出這個技術跟範圍你使用的這個做得不錯因為為什麼現在按一個鈕就可以生出一堆IP按一個鈕可以生出那個LINE的貼圖一整套"},{"start":246.088,"end":259.698,"text":"那第二個文化黑潮的T-Comics這個中長篇漫畫產製真愛要點呢完全的表明呢不受理用生成式AI作為創作工具的計畫金曼講呢獎勵要點沒有註明但是報名文件需檢附拒絕書說要使用AI自動生成軟體的創作情況但是金曼講呢直接禁止使用生成式AI創作的作品來比賽"},{"start":274.648,"end":279.955,"text":"文化部的繪本圖書創作呢 則是在民不受理深圳市的AI作為創作工具的計畫欸 很不一樣啊我這邊也直接把輕慢講的拿出來我覺得對年輕人實在很不公平啊"},{"start":289.441,"end":298.714,"text":"你們在裡面呢直接就寫了說不能用AI輔助也不行奇怪為什麼年輕人不行大人就可以是這樣嗎我想請教次長為什麼同樣類型的補強補助案對AI創作會有不一樣的接受標準你們考量因素是什麼"},{"start":307.03,"end":314.175,"text":"先跟委員做說明是這每一項計畫這個要點裡面要不要接受AI這件事情我們都先經過相對這些專業團體的諮詢讓他們跟他們討論要不要接受那這兩個最基本的差別如果是比較是屬於補助計畫類的它會比較寬鬆因為它並不是獎項的競爭沒有名次沒有的所以它是一種就像我們的精神是如果你做AI創作是我們的優先對象謝謝次長"},{"start":335.45,"end":359.781,"text":"但我們也看到裡面有一個地方您可能細細的沒看到金曼獎的部分要點就沒有載明我理解每一個可能有不一樣的但是有的根本沒寫這個我想不能這樣我想請教一下次長金曼獎有經過討論你有不一樣的接受度你就應該講清楚其實我們這還只是冰山一角我想文化部還有很多的補助獎補助獎項計畫都沒有載明的話"},{"start":363.164,"end":371.571,"text":"這次長這是什麼原因你說不一樣說不一樣的理由我這個我理解有個根本沒寫啊像我們今年36屆你就沒講啊這個是不是這個部分我想我們再來做一個全面的檢視把AI的深層到底接受或不接受接受到什麼程度裡面"},{"start":381.058,"end":409.358,"text":"能夠在要點裡面進行說明我們不用把AI妖魔化可是我覺得要講清楚本席具體要求文化部一個月內可不可以通盤檢討各項獎補助計畫跟獎項應該要在增建要點報名須知當中明文的規定對於AI創作的接受度讓藝文創作者台灣現在很多AI高手藝文創作者很多AI高手他們有明確的規範可以依循不然其實這之後可能有爭議你們也會很麻煩結果可不可以用書面方式來提供給本席"},{"start":410.118,"end":425.889,"text":"好 謝謝我們來做檢視可不可以延了三個月因為我們的補助要點真的很多各司都有兩個月好不好因為我們是怕創作者一邊在創作不知道到底能不能用到時候用了又不能參加比賽搞不清楚狀況好不好早一點可以嗎好 再來我想到判別方式無論你接不接受其實評審或者是評議的過程可能也會需要什麼呢你會需要判別"},{"start":440.178,"end":445.162,"text":"在這裡有人說有講判別方式有的用拒絕書有的是沒寫清楚那請問次長判別這個使用AI創作的過程如果出現爭議要如何處理有部分講像是不接受完全使用那請問100%跟90% 99%使用AI創作要如何分辨這個要如何判定呢這個次長有沒有看法"},{"start":467.482,"end":484.037,"text":"這個部分我們跟這個領域的專家討論的是我們看現在可以接受AI的部分都是它作為背景的創作像剛剛那個金曼講裡頭它可以用AI的時候可以畫背景 不能畫角色這樣啊對 主要主創的部分金曼講上面沒寫啊"},{"start":486.098,"end":503.552,"text":"所以我們在討論的裡頭因為季曼講我們沒有規定不能用AI可是我們在審判裁判們或者是評審委員們在審查的時候用這樣的準則所以每一次到底要用你剛講的是100%還是90%還是幾%這個事情還是由審查委員就當前的作品來做一個通談的討論"},{"start":511.258,"end":532.847,"text":"我想想現在AI已經人眼分不出來啦評審要怎麼分啊所以這個部分我還是得請教因為我們像這次那個繪本的新秀獎有沒有AI生成創作所以我們就請了兩位在學校裡面用人眼看嗎我不知道他們的辨識方式是什麼啦可是我們的確是有請專家用什麼方法看啊"},{"start":533.914,"end":559.479,"text":"用人眼看我們就請兩位我覺得文化部要知道好不好文化部要知道為什麼因為我們很關注有沒有工具你們可以來合法而且值得性愛的判斷不然他用眼睛看我喜歡這個作品我說他不是AI我不喜歡這個作品我說他是AI那這樣子變成完全沒有依循標準所以我想文化部115年有沒有編列相關預算要進行採購"},{"start":562.099,"end":565.3,"text":"相關的AI判別的工具編列多少金額不好意思我真的不知道現在已經有這樣子的工具如果有的請委員能夠提供我們這方面的資訊文化部相關同仁我想跨部會也可以來合作一下書發部 國科會同仁真的要努力因為我們這個AI的創作議題從"},{"start":583.928,"end":606.537,"text":"去年2月1號我上任我就開始不斷的問所以再拜託各位真的不能這個不然民眾會很困擾像我們剛剛提到甚至有你提到這個金半獎還有這種隱歸者趕快來更新那其實呢我們覺得現在是在預算編列的情況我們也希望之後的爭議減少啦所以我們也是在提說第一工具的採購趕快來研議第二其實國際上有一個趨勢既然你AI的創作可能會有很多的這種"},{"start":613.46,"end":618.904,"text":"這個是或不是百分百還是百分之九十其實國際趨勢是說乾脆設立一個AI專屬的獎項啦那我是比較瘋狂一點我說要不要來一個AI精創作獎啊其實台灣有很好的條件啊說不定把他們都導到這裡來你在其他獎項上也比較不會有爭議那譬如說這個AI快速發展洛杉磯即將要誕生第一個AI藝術博物館我請教一下市長"},{"start":640.502,"end":645.669,"text":"這些東西都逐漸的提高了能不能研議新增專屬AI藝術的獎項有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":649.771,"end":654.974,"text":"再請委員給我們一點時間我們來研究一下好嗎好 我想當然我們還是注意主流國家相關著作權法對於人工智慧的技術在沒有人類參與的情況之下很可能會有不受著作權保護的問題但是有人類參與的情況之下其實是比較寬鬆的所以我想我們希望有一條康莊大道"},{"start":670.623,"end":673.364,"text":"讓台灣的文藝創作者可以結合科技我們台灣科技之島嘛我們又要做主權AI嘛我們應該要把他們導引到一個很棒的地方甚至全世界AI創作者都來我們的這個金AI文化創作獎不是很好嗎還可以鼓勵他們用本土的資料來訓練AI來創作"},{"start":688.368,"end":709.262,"text":"那我想這個只是一個大的方向我跟主席再爭取一點時間不好意思喔這個文化藝術應用深層式AI的指引其實一直有聽說你們六月下旬好像要公告那具體有沒有現在已經六月了六月五號了上旬了想請次長能不能簡要說明一下六月下旬是不是會公告什麼時候有沒有具體日期"},{"start":711.988,"end":714.21,"text":"會不會有定期檢視跟修改的機制因為AI跑得很快嘛預計多久檢視一次啊"},{"start":728.806,"end":746.693,"text":"有沒有這個機制我們通常所有的法令它都是會有逐年我們逐年都會做一個AI跑得很快我有點懷疑逐年可能會有點太慢請你們再研議一下那第二個問題呢是我想這個AI訓練資料其實很重要沒有資料沒有AI"},{"start":747.113,"end":758.695,"text":"沒有AI就沒有主權喔這是這個大家都認同的所以AI訓練資料庫目前速發部主責辦理請問最後兩個問題不好意思請問文化部是不是有受邀相關的會議有沒有站在藝文工作者的立場表達提供AI來用他們的資料來訓練會不會有合理的分論或講注的機制來幫助文化人提供他們的資料讓我們AI更有台灣價值有沒有這方面的討論政策上"},{"start":775.618,"end":799.811,"text":"首先我們有參加這樣的會議那在會議裡面我們現在目前提供的資料都以文化部以取得著作權的這樣的資料文字圖像都是那至於說其他還沒有著作權的這部分如何參與主權AI的訓練這部分我們還在繼續研議當中因為剛剛您提到了到底是要先談分潤還是要談以後創作出來的這個預計研議多久"},{"start":800.171,"end":821.72,"text":"現在日本已經開放了老久了吉普利已經擴散到全世界了因為目前速發部的政策他們編列預算只做我們已經有著作權的他還沒有辦法進行下一步的討論積極爭取好不好我想藝文人才是需要一點鼓勵那最後一個問題就是因為這個AI指引我有看到你們的會議記錄上其實很多的藝文人士都覺得予以鼓勵但是怕看不懂或不太理解"},{"start":828.183,"end":841.474,"text":"能不能製作懶人包和圖解或者用Podcast來宣傳一下甚至能不能建立未來有一個平台或專線讓藝文工作者在使用這些AI的時候遇到的疑問可以直接來詢問有沒有這個機會"},{"start":842.708,"end":868.682,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指導這個我們也都會來進行規劃好 謝謝我想AI科技對藝文創作真的不是洪水猛獸很可能反而是台灣價值在藝文世界可以發光的機會我們希望我們的文化部可以更積極主動啦幫助AI科技去融入文化藝術的領域幫助藝文工作者更加專注的把時間跟資源投注在需要人類表達情感灌注我們台灣價值我們中華民國的歷史"},{"start":870.703,"end":887.91,"text":"文化發揮創意的項目上希望文化部可以順應潮流我們一起運用科技的力量讓台灣在這個相關的文化藝術可以在國際上發光謝謝委員的指導我們文資局也真的依照委員的那個建議我們文資局也多項的引用AI的技術好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝葛如君 昭偉次郎請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":235,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時43分）謝謝主席，有請文化部李靜慧李次長。"],["主席：好，有請李次長。"],["葛委員如鈞：次長早。第36屆金曲獎即將在本月底舉行頒獎典禮，這次最佳華語女歌手的入圍者有魏如萱小姐，當然希望大家都可以順利得獎。在他的入圍專輯裡面就有一首歌──紙黏土，其MV裡面就有描繪當下流行的AI話題，由此可見藝術、AI與文化之間的關係日漸緊密。除了AI成為創作的主題之外，也可能成為創作工具的角色之一，和文化藝術之間的交集可能會愈來愈密切。","本席質詢的時候曾經數度關切文化藝術跟AI之間的競合關係，近期藝文界關注的焦點則是在文化部所舉辦的各種獎項、獎補助的計畫，到底能不能接受AI協作，甚至是直接讓AI生成的作品參加？我們特別檢視金曲獎獎勵要點跟報名須知，我們發現完全沒有註明到底AI協作或AI生成的作品可不可以報名參加。我們也覺得很奇怪，報名須知完全都沒有提，是怎麼樣？是歡迎大家用AI來寫作，還是不歡迎？對於可以、不可以完全沒有規定，但是我們也回去查了，發現在第35屆的時候講得很清楚，就是參考葛萊美獎等國際獎項，AI技術可以輔助，但若要完全使用的話可能就不行。","我想因為有非常多人在關心，接下來可能獎項出來了，有人哭，有人笑，可能這個問題會更嚴重。請問次長，第36屆金曲獎的報名作品我們是不是依循第35屆新聞稿提到的原則，可以使用AI作為輔助，但不可以完全使用AI技術生成作品，是不是這樣？"],["李次長靜慧：對，一樣維持這樣的原則，就是當作工具可以，可是因為它沒有所謂的著作權人格，所以這個完全是……"],["葛委員如鈞：沿襲第35屆對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：對，沒錯。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝你，你有確定的說明，但是如果這個原則已經確定了，你們為什麼遲遲不修改獎勵要點跟報名須知呢？你們為什麼不把這個規定明確化，讓大家有規範可以遵循？為什麼不修改然後放進去？"],["李次長靜慧：好，這部分我想如果有這樣的需求，我們還是可以在下一次的要點裡面做……"],["葛委員如鈞：這有一點可惜，因為都已經快要頒獎了，就是在6月28號。那我們來看，我幫次長跟文化部的同仁做了一點功課，其實金曲獎只是其中一個案例，我想文化部為了鼓勵文化產業，這個我們也支持啦，有很多的獎項補助，但是對於AI生成或者是AI的創作，大家的相關規範可以說是十分不一致。請次長看一下，文化黑潮──臺灣圖像角色IP品牌發展計畫的徵案要點就載明得非常清楚，AI技術可以作為輔助創作、製作流程的工具，完全使用AI技術生成的話，他還講得很棒，他還說不是本徵案支持的對象，他還說你可以用，但是我們不是要支持這個，所以你如果有用這個技術的話，你要主動揭露，你要提出你使用的這個技術跟範圍，這個做得不錯，為什麼？因為現在只要按一個鈕就可以生出一堆IP，按一個鈕可以生出一整套LINE的貼圖。第二個是文化黑潮──T-Comics臺灣中長篇漫畫產製計畫的徵案要點，完全表明不受理用生成式AI作為創作工具的計畫。金漫獎的獎勵要點沒有註明，但是報名文件需檢附具結書，說要使用AI自動生成軟體的創作情況；但是青漫獎直接禁止使用生成式AI創作的作品來比賽；文化部的繪本、圖書創作則是載明不受理生成式AI作為創作工具的計畫。所以真的很不一樣，我在這邊也直接把青漫獎拿出來，因為我覺得對年輕人實在很不公平，你們在裡面直接就寫了不能用AI，輔助也不行，奇怪。為什麼年輕人不行，大人就可以，是這樣嗎？我想請教次長，為什麼同樣類型的獎補助案對AI創作會有不一樣的接受標準？你們考量的因素是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：先跟委員做說明，在每一項計畫的要點裡面要不要接受AI這件事情，我們都先經過對這些專業團體的諮詢，跟他們討論要不要接受，這兩個最基本的差別，如果是比較屬於補助計畫類的，它會比較寬鬆，因為它並不是獎項的競爭，沒有名次，所以我們的精神是如果你做AI創作可以，可是不是我們的優先對象。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝次長，但我們也看到裡面有一個地方，可能太細所以你沒看到，金漫獎的要點就沒有載明啊！我理解每一個可能有不一樣的內容，但是有的根本沒寫這個啊！我想不能這樣嘛！"],["李次長靜慧：金漫獎也是有經過討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想跟次長講，如果有不一樣的接受度，你就應該要講清楚，其實這還只是冰山一角，我想文化部還有很多的獎補助、獎項的計畫都沒有載明，次長，這是什麼原因？你說不一樣有不一樣的理由，這個我理解，可是有的根本沒寫啊！像我們今年第36屆金曲獎就沒講啊！"],["李次長靜慧：好，對這個部分我想我們再來做全面的檢視，關於AI的生成到底接受或不接受、接受到什麼程度，能夠在要點裡面儘量去說明。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，謝謝。我們不用把AI妖魔化，可是我覺得要講清楚。本席具體要求文化部1個月內通盤檢討各項獎補助計畫跟獎項，應該要在徵件要點、報名須知當中明文的規定對於AI創作的接受度。臺灣現在有很多AI高手，藝文創作者有很多AI高手，要讓藝文創作者有明確的規範可以依循，不然這個之後可能會有爭議，其實你們也會很麻煩。可不可以用書面的方式，提供本席你們檢討的結果？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝，我們來檢視。可不可以延成3個月？因為我們的補助要點真的很多，各司都有。"],["葛委員如鈞：2個月好不好？因為我們是怕創作者一邊在創作，一邊又擔心到底能不能用，到時候用了又不能參加比賽，會搞不清楚狀況，早一點可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：再來我想談判別方式，無論你接不接受，其實評審或者是評議的過程可能也會需要什麼呢？就是會需要判別嘛！在這裡有的有講到判別方式，有的是用具結書，有的是沒寫清楚。請問次長，判別使用AI創作的過程如果出現爭議，要如何處理？有部分獎項是不接受完全使用，那請問100%跟90%、99%使用AI創作要如何分辨，要如何判定呢？次長有沒有看法？"],["李次長靜慧：關於這個部分，我們跟這個領域的專家學者有討論過，我們看到現在可以接受AI的部分都是以它作為背景的創作，像剛剛講的那個金漫獎裡頭，它可以用AI……"],["葛委員如鈞：就是可以畫背景、不能畫角色這樣啦！"],["李次長靜慧：對，主要主創的部分我們還是要維持。"],["葛委員如鈞：金漫獎上面沒寫啊！"],["李次長靜慧：對，所以我們剛剛講的那個是……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們是隱規則是不是？"],["李次長靜慧：對，我們有討論，因為我們在金漫獎裡面沒有規定不能用AI，可是裁判們或者是評審委員們在審查的時候是用這樣的準則，所以你剛剛講的是100%、90%還是百分之幾，這個事情還是由審查委員就當前的作品通盤討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，次長，我想現在AI用人眼已經分不出來了，評審要怎麼分？"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分我還是得請教……像這次繪本的新秀獎有沒有AI生成創作，我們就有請兩位在學校裡面……"],["葛委員如鈞：是用人眼看嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我不知道他們的辨識方式是什麼，可是我們的確是有請專家……"],["葛委員如鈞：用什麼方法看？用人眼看嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：不知道，我們就請兩位老師幫我們指導。"],["葛委員如鈞：我覺得文化部要知道好不好？文化部要知道，為什麼？因為我們很關注有沒有工具讓你們可以做合法而且值得信賴的判斷，不然只用眼睛看，因為我喜歡這個作品，我說它不是AI，如果我不喜歡這個作品，我就說它是AI，這樣子會變成完全沒有依循的標準。文化部115年有沒有編列預算採購相關的AI判別工具？編列多少金額？"],["李次長靜慧：不好意思，我真的不知道現在已經有這樣子的工具，請委員能夠提供我們這方面的資訊。"],["葛委員如鈞：除了文化部相關的同仁，我想可以跨部會來合作一下，包括數發部、國科會。同仁真的要努力，因為我對這個AI的創作議題，從去年2月1號我上任以後就開始不斷地問，所以再拜託各位，不然民眾真的會很困擾，像剛剛你甚至有提到金漫獎還有這種隱規則，要趕快更新。其實我們覺得現在是在預算編列的情況，我們也希望之後的爭議減少，所以我們也正在提出，第一，趕快研議工具的採購；第二，其實在國際上有一個趨勢，既然AI的創作可能會有很多這種是或不是、有100%還是90%，其實國際趨勢是說乾脆設立一個AI專屬的獎項。我是比較瘋狂一點，我說要不要來一個AI金創作獎？其實臺灣有很好的條件，說不定把他們都導到這裡來，你在其他獎項上也比較不會有爭議。譬如說，AI快速發展，洛杉磯即將要誕生第一個AI藝術博物館。我請教一下次長，這些東西都逐漸地提高，能不能研議新增專屬AI藝術的獎項？有沒有這個可能性？"],["李次長靜慧：請委員給我們一點時間，我們來研究一下。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想當然我們還是要注意一個問題，就是主流國家相關著作權法對於人工智慧的技術在沒有人類參與的情況之下，很可能會不受著作權保護，但是在有人類參與的情況之下，其實是比較寬鬆的，所以我們希望有一條康莊大道，讓臺灣的文藝創作者可以結合科技。我們臺灣是科技之島，我們要做主權AI，我們應該要把他們導引到一個很棒的地方，甚至全世界AI創作者都來我們這個金AI文化創作獎，這樣不是很好嗎？還可以鼓勵他們用本土的資料訓練AI來創作，我想這個只是一個大的方向。","關於文化藝術應用生成式AI的指引，其實一直有聽說你們好像要在6月下旬公告，今天是6月5號，已經是上旬了，次長能不能簡要說明一下，在6月下旬是不是會公告？有沒有具體的日期？"],["李次長靜慧：其實就是確定在6月下旬一定會公告，那日期就要看我們公文的流程……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以不會延後？"],["李次長靜慧：不會。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，加油。我想問一下，因為現在還沒看到，我想先了解一下，就是會不會有定期檢視跟修改的機制？因為AI跑得很快，預計多久檢視一次？有沒有這個機制？"],["李次長靜慧：我們通常所有的法令都會逐年修正。"],["葛委員如鈞：AI跑得很快，我有點懷疑逐年可能會有點太慢，請你們再研議一下。"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：第二個問題，AI訓練資料其實很重要，沒有資料就沒有AI，沒有AI就沒有主權，這個是大家都認同的。AI訓練資料庫目前是數發部主責辦理，最後兩個問題，請問文化部是不是有受邀相關的會議？有沒有站在藝文工作者的立場，表達提供AI用他們的資料訓練會不會有合理的分潤或獎助機制，幫助文化人提供他們的資料，讓我們的AI更有臺灣價值？在政策上有沒有這方面的討論？"],["李次長靜慧：首先，我們有參加這樣的會議，在會議裡面我們目前提供的資料都是文化部已取得著作權的資料，文字、圖像都是，至於其他還沒有取得著作權的部分，如何參與主權AI的訓練，這部分我們還在繼續研議當中。因為剛剛委員也提到了，到底是要先談分潤，還是要談以後創作出來的……"],["葛委員如鈞：預計研議多久？現在日本已經開放好久了，吉卜力已經擴散到全世界了。"],["李次長靜慧：因為目前數發部的政策，他們編列預算只做我們已經有著作權的部分，還沒有辦法進行下一步的討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：積極爭取，好不好？我想藝文人才是需要一點鼓勵。"],["李次長靜慧：好，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後一個問題，這個AI指引，我有看到你們的會議紀錄，其實很多的藝文人士都予以鼓勵，但是怕看不懂或不太理解。能不能製作懶人包和圖解或者用Podcast宣傳一下，甚至未來能不能建立一個平臺或專線，讓藝文工作者在使用這些AI遇到疑問的時候可以直接詢問？有沒有這個機會？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員的指導，這個我們也都會來進行規劃。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，AI科技對藝文創作真的不是洪水猛獸，很可能反而是臺灣價值在藝文世界可以發光的機會。我們希望文化部可以更積極主動，幫助AI科技融入文化藝術的領域，幫助藝文工作者更加專注地把時間和資源投注在需要人類表達情感的地方，灌注在我們臺灣價值、我們中華民國的歷史文化、發揮創意的項目上。希望文化部可以順應潮流，我們一起運用科技的力量，讓臺灣相關的文化藝術可以在國際上發光，好嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的指導，我們文資局也真的依照委員的建議，文資局也多項引用了AI的技術。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞召委，次長請回。","接下來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564877e8b0565f8781c9f0f8eeb1de8c89c47c2ef1f362baa4a9149460bbc69c5a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:36:34 - 09:46:06","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:36:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:46:06+08:00","duration":572,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.04971875,"end":17.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.44159375,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.13096875,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.594718750000006,"end":38.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.50596875,"end":52.242218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.799093750000004,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.486593750000004,"end":55.127843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.127843750000004,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.431593750000005,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.67159375000001,"end":69.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.12971875000001,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.65284375,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.14971875,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":121.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.90221875,"end":129.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.54221875000002,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.12221875,"end":146.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.38784375,"end":165.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.43971875,"end":182.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.39471875,"end":195.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.75159375,"end":202.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.34534375,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.83346875,"end":211.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.13909375,"end":236.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.56784375,"end":244.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.61721875,"end":244.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.17409375000003,"end":249.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.22409375,"end":265.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.31846875,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.06096875000003,"end":301.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.87409375000004,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.70534375,"end":305.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.92409375,"end":306.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.93659375000004,"end":313.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.42909375,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.39034375,"end":323.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.49096875000004,"end":323.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.96346875,"end":324.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.48659375,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.03159375,"end":389.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.94909375000003,"end":392.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.53909375,"end":413.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.98971875,"end":399.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.36284375,"end":415.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.03784375000004,"end":416.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.07971875000004,"end":417.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.02471875000003,"end":471.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.36034375,"end":457.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.97409375,"end":492.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.06784375,"end":494.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.02971875000003,"end":502.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.85534375000003,"end":528.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.28159375,"end":547.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.6584687500001,"end":547.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.7934687500001,"end":548.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.8272187499999,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.5734687500001,"end":551.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.05846875,"end":555.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.45909375,"end":569.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.42471875,"end":560.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4609687500001,"end":569.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.83221875,"end":570.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.04721875,"end":571.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.9753437500001,"end":572.3803437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.38,"end":15.23,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個請教一下保訓會的主委你坐得好沒關係 坐得好記得開麥克風"},{"start":18.459,"end":36.674,"text":"那這個要修這個法過去當然有一些爭議希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理那這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的如果我的理解沒有錯目的就是加速"},{"start":37.859,"end":56.557,"text":"趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢"},{"start":58.706,"end":78.644,"text":"因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個市場霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來"},{"start":79.204,"end":96.709,"text":"就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障"},{"start":97.89,"end":114.592,"text":"處理程序 課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好 那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正"},{"start":115.332,"end":129.285,"text":"對不對 對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好 謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法呢這次的修正呢是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是"},{"start":130.606,"end":157.909,"text":"在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟辦公場所執行植物的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了"},{"start":158.289,"end":180.123,"text":"一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢從主管機關開始它設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個"},{"start":183.465,"end":201.617,"text":"各機關必須設安全防護委員會這裡面不管是性別或是外部人員都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制經常保訓會會被質疑一件事情我們也會接到陳情"},{"start":202.538,"end":223.628,"text":"叫做官官相護 這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用 保訓會就是官官相護 負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭 進行相關的申訴救濟的時候 也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的 我說說的也會給說的"},{"start":226.489,"end":244.25,"text":"這個事情現在保訓會你們也應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護"},{"start":245.236,"end":265.182,"text":"那委員報告 這個關關相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個 這個所謂的關關相護其實是不會發生的 因為"},{"start":267.183,"end":288.291,"text":"這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況"},{"start":288.891,"end":306.278,"text":"但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年"},{"start":307.388,"end":322.964,"text":"彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查"},{"start":323.544,"end":343.848,"text":"好 那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告"},{"start":348.329,"end":361.877,"text":"保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是 他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法"},{"start":365.679,"end":391.655,"text":"有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘 聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請 聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好 那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎"},{"start":394.372,"end":407.44,"text":"資料庫 人才庫是公開的 實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊"},{"start":414.577,"end":430.755,"text":"報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後"},{"start":431.96,"end":449.314,"text":"在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的"},{"start":449.774,"end":470.834,"text":"所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫"},{"start":471.314,"end":490.448,"text":"好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定"},{"start":493.208,"end":516.153,"text":"是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢"},{"start":517.134,"end":528.569,"text":"兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制"},{"start":529.369,"end":547.222,"text":"那一個機關不就要有兩套制度目前機關裡面就是這樣因為他的身分別還有跟機關的關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致"},{"start":548.322,"end":571.635,"text":"有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的路徑如果我們這個先弄了那勞動部那一邊相關的法規也跟上來了那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好 謝謝你謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時36分）謝謝主席。請教一下保訓會主委，要修這個法，過去當然有一些爭議，希望是不是跟職安法一起來處理。這一次特別把它拉到公務人員保障法來處理，如果我的理解沒有錯，目的就是加速、趕快把公務體系比如霸凌這些課題，能夠有一些懲戒的機制，甚至有相關的救濟機制。我的理解是對的嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：沒有錯。"],["王委員義川：勞動部的看法呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為勞動部目前也有將職場霸凌的部分納入，但整個保障法是基於院長在大院行使同意權的時候所做出的承諾。此外，憲法增修條文第六條規定，考試院所掌理的保障本來就是考試院應該要很積極、當責去做的事情，所以我們在這個修法的過程當中，跟勞動部主要的互動就是儘可能讓雙方的……有關於……他們是對私部門的勞工，我們是對政府部門公務人員相關的保障、處理程序、課責，還有包含相關的罰則等等，都儘可能的一致。"],["王委員義川：除了保障法，院裡也有一個安衛辦法嘛？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員義川：我的理解是你們也有在做相關的修正，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["王委員義川：可不可以大概講一下修正的主要內容涵蓋哪些？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。安全及衛生防護辦法這次的修正是相當大幅度的，第一個是前年跟去年有關消防法的部分，雖然已經納入了消防法專章，但是我們也一併把高風險職務以一個專節特別在處理。這個部分主要就是屬於安檢跟辦公場所執行職務相關的設備等等。第二個部分當然就是這次大家最關心的不法侵害，不法侵害這一章特別做了一個有關職場霸凌的專節，在這個專節裡面我們完成了整個架構，因為行政機關最重要的特色就是逐級高密度的監督，所以從主管機關開始設安全及衛生防護諮詢會。再來，各機關必須設安全防護委員會，這裡面不管是性別或者外部人員，都要達到不低於二分之一或三分之一。"],["王委員義川：可是針對你剛剛講的這些機制，保訓會經常會被質疑一件事情，我們也會接到陳情，叫做官官相護。在這個機制上，現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以杜絕外面這樣的疑慮？就是說反正送保訓會也沒有用，保訓會就是官官相護，護著我的長官，所以我進來這裡進行相關申訴、救濟也沒用，保訓會沒什麼聽我說，我說一說都是多說的。保訓會也應該有聽過這樣的說法。接下來像公務人員保障法的修法，怎麼樣在這樣的機制能夠防範，譬如被霸凌最後還是出現官官相護？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：官官相護就目前的機制不會有，因為這是信任問題，為了解決這個信任問題，所以我們在這一次保障法跟安衛辦法的修法，第一個、所謂的官官相護其實不會發生，因為被霸凌的人對機關申訴，或者被機關首長霸凌必須向上級機關申訴，他不服以後到了保訓會再申訴，保訓會整個審議是非常公正、客觀的，所以並不會出現所謂官官相護的情況。但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加放心，所以我們有在安衛辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督這兩章裡面特別設計，保訓會會要求各主管機關每年彙整安衛跟霸凌的案件數，如果有異常，我們會再去抽查；此外，如果保訓會接獲申訴，我們自己也可以主動進行調查。"],["王委員義川：好，你們後續會成立相關的委員會嘛，剛剛有提到外部專家。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員義川：我想請問一下，這是一個專家庫的概念？還是一聘一年，就是這幾個人？還是每一次案子就由保訓會去處理專家的部分？比如說一次5個專家、幾個專家進來，現在的設計會是什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，保訓會將來在調查這些因果關係的審議小組會依照案件性質，還有這個公務人員是屬於什麼職系，因為這會涉及到有沒有違反職場霸凌及安衛辦法的界定，所以他不是像委員所講的是專任的、一聘聘多久，不是，我們會用的是人才庫的概念，每一次根據不同的案件需求，會邀請、聘請不同的專業，這樣比較能夠符合當事人真正的現場了解。"],["王委員義川：好，那這些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎？資料庫也就是人才庫是公開資訊嗎？就是實際上審議未必要公開，可是這個部分，外界總會覺得說你們到底聘的是不是專家、是否能符合實際的狀況，所以這個人才資料庫會是公開資訊嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：報告委員，目前我們規劃會是公開資訊，因為不只是保訓會在組成審議小組調查案件時需要，其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來安衛辦法上路以後，在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會時，也需要大量的外部專家學者，而且這個範圍包含很多領域，心理的、法律的、治理的，還有諮商的。我們現在正在擬人才庫設置辦法當中，未來這些願意成為我們專家人才庫的，當然我們會經過訓練、挑選，這會是一個公開的，因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫。"],["王委員義川：好。最後請教一下，有關這個保障法，我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員，他們是勞保，也在這個規範裡頭嗎？還是一個單位、一個機關裡面就是有兩組人，這一組人是適用這個，另外一組則適用勞動部相關的環安衛的規定？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，跟委員報告，這就是這次我們跟勞動部的共同默契，我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要讓任何一個人被漏掉，所以本來政府機關裡面適用職安法的這些人，在霸凌的申訴程序，申訴的部分以及調查的部分，兩邊的制度、程序就是一套，所以我們在第一百零二條就會加上準用，但因為他的身分別不同，後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制。"],["王委員義川：那一個機關不就要有兩套制度？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前機關裡面就是這樣，因為他的身分別還有跟機關的契約關係是不一樣的，現況也是這樣進行，但我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致，有往前走了一大步。"],["王委員義川：OK。就是最開始的那一段，也就是申訴的機制……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，申訴、防治都是一致的。"],["王委員義川：是一致的，只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：救濟不一樣。"],["王委員義川：如果這個救濟的路徑先擬定了，勞動部的相關法規也跟上來了，這樣整個就會比較完整。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5647214d65befcd60ad9f0f8eeb1de8c89c47c2ef1f362baa4a0804d8b80b32b3635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:17:36 - 09:36:24","影片長度":"00:18:48","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:17:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:36:24+08:00","duration":1128,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.80221875,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.450968750000001,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.40846875,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.10034375,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.12909375,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.43221875,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.47784375,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.63346875,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.877843750000004,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.712843750000005,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.10471875,"end":43.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.27721875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.11659375,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.75346875,"end":48.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.149718750000005,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.625968750000006,"end":54.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.29221875,"end":57.743468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.40159375,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.797843750000006,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.210968750000006,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.61534375000001,"end":70.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.41221875000001,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.28096875,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.10721875,"end":79.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.83284375000001,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.06409375000001,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.53534375000001,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.28596875000001,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.71596875,"end":102.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.00221875000001,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.10284375,"end":116.68784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.16034375000001,"end":118.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.61159375000001,"end":123.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.79221875,"end":124.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.41659375,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.63596875,"end":135.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.39534375000001,"end":125.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.12471875,"end":130.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.14534375,"end":134.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.91284375,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.70096875000002,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.44346875000002,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.62471875,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.04159375,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.31096875,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.52596875,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.61034375,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.03221875,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.31471875,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.59284375000001,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.71471875,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.79471875000002,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.67971875,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.81034375000002,"end":174.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.76346875000002,"end":174.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.29471875000002,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.47596875000002,"end":176.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.36159375,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.00659375,"end":183.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.82284375,"end":203.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.77971875,"end":213.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.75346875000002,"end":209.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.82034375,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.97221875000002,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.02284375000002,"end":214.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.15784375,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.82846875,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.47721875000002,"end":222.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.61221875,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.96659375000002,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.53534375,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.00346875000002,"end":238.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.77846875,"end":239.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.85409375,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.36346875,"end":248.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.68409375000002,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.59909375,"end":253.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.78034375000001,"end":257.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.94034375,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.47596875,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.50971875,"end":258.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.96846875,"end":265.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.96409375,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.03159375,"end":272.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.00971875,"end":271.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.95034375,"end":274.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.40159375,"end":276.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.10596875000005,"end":288.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.44346875,"end":276.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.45846875,"end":293.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.56721875,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.51221875000005,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.92971875,"end":298.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.54971875,"end":300.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.70971875000004,"end":303.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.23659375,"end":305.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.00846875,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.37534375,"end":313.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.91846875000005,"end":335.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.23159375,"end":338.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.22721875,"end":339.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.94409375000004,"end":340.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.82159375000003,"end":353.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.44409375000004,"end":367.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.14221875000004,"end":370.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.50034375,"end":372.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.85034375000004,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.11596875000004,"end":393.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.67409375,"end":402.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":402.44909375000003,"end":402.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.55034375,"end":402.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.75284375,"end":404.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":407.17409375000005,"end":409.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":409.67159375,"end":415.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.16034375000004,"end":419.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":416.91096875000005,"end":416.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":416.97846875000005,"end":417.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":420.58971875000003,"end":431.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.09034375000005,"end":432.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.89159375,"end":435.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.16971875,"end":435.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":435.18659375000004,"end":435.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.01346875,"end":442.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.20221875000004,"end":449.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.61846875000003,"end":452.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":452.97284375000004,"end":455.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.25096875,"end":456.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.07346875,"end":459.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.81971875000005,"end":463.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.89096875,"end":464.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.58284375000005,"end":464.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.72096875000005,"end":472.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.64471875000004,"end":474.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.04846875000004,"end":483.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.91284375000004,"end":491.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":491.34659375,"end":494.43471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.24471875,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.06284375,"end":499.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":500.03721875,"end":501.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.34221875,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.45596875,"end":524.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.97596875,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.50284375,"end":550.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.4890937499999,"end":552.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.4428437500001,"end":584.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.1884687500001,"end":586.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":587.1797187500001,"end":587.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.8503437500001,"end":595.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":667.42034375,"end":671.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.7703437499999,"end":668.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":681.2747187500001,"end":685.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":734.61659375,"end":736.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.45596875,"end":752.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.97721875,"end":750.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.03159375,"end":752.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":752.31846875,"end":765.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.35221875,"end":754.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.18596875,"end":763.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.55721875,"end":763.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.9622187500001,"end":765.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":765.7678437500001,"end":765.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.58971875,"end":777.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":777.2934687500001,"end":784.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.88346875,"end":782.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":784.68471875,"end":790.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.9453437500001,"end":798.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":798.9778437500001,"end":803.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":804.22596875,"end":812.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.21721875,"end":807.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.01846875,"end":810.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.7734687500001,"end":811.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.5959687500001,"end":812.6297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.69721875,"end":815.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.75159375,"end":818.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.44721875,"end":820.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.5903437500001,"end":823.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.0203437500002,"end":826.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.0578437500001,"end":832.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.1497187500001,"end":835.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.9509687500001,"end":837.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.84096875,"end":839.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.4228437500001,"end":841.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.44784375,"end":843.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.13096875,"end":847.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.39221875,"end":853.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.4753437500001,"end":858.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":858.1584687500001,"end":858.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":858.20909375,"end":859.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":860.20034375,"end":866.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":867.37221875,"end":878.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.5559687500001,"end":883.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.96034375,"end":883.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.3147187500001,"end":897.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.29159375,"end":899.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.31659375,"end":902.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.6240937500002,"end":924.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":924.61221875,"end":937.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":937.55534375,"end":938.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":939.12471875,"end":952.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":952.5403437500001,"end":960.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":960.8428437500002,"end":964.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":965.7365937500001,"end":967.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":968.23409375,"end":969.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":969.88784375,"end":1003.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":976.4353437500001,"end":976.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":992.9897187500001,"end":993.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1002.77721875,"end":1002.8953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1003.0134687500001,"end":1004.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1004.31284375,"end":1017.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1009.6284687500001,"end":1009.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1013.2903437500001,"end":1013.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1015.1128437500001,"end":1015.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1017.00284375,"end":1022.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1021.81221875,"end":1022.1665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1022.4197187500001,"end":1038.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1027.4990937500002,"end":1027.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1033.37159375,"end":1034.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1035.0759687500001,"end":1035.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1035.9534687500002,"end":1035.9703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1036.02096875,"end":1036.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1036.1053437500002,"end":1036.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1036.6453437500002,"end":1037.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1037.6747187500002,"end":1039.7672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1039.53096875,"end":1039.9190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1039.9190937500002,"end":1041.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1040.2734687500001,"end":1047.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1043.2603437500002,"end":1043.6990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1046.56784375,"end":1047.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1047.8840937500001,"end":1050.1790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1050.51659375,"end":1051.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1051.19159375,"end":1068.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1062.9534687500002,"end":1064.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1064.2022187500002,"end":1066.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1066.9022187500002,"end":1075.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1070.61471875,"end":1072.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1075.96409375,"end":1082.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1082.4778437500001,"end":1083.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1084.23284375,"end":1085.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1085.66721875,"end":1087.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1088.2490937500002,"end":1093.4634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1094.0540937500002,"end":1099.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1100.12909375,"end":1110.0515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1110.1697187500001,"end":1122.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1122.20159375,"end":1122.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1124.5472187500002,"end":1127.1797187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.356,"end":33.308,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請考試院秘書長保訓會主任委員 蔡主任委員還有選舉部的懷疑政策懷疑政策委員長三位早 時間的關係不易問候最近監察院濫用公務車的狀況引爆全國人民的怒火昨天有立法委員檢舉所接到檢舉"},{"start":34.912,"end":61.748,"text":"有監委濫用公務車啊結果那個監委啊大嗆說他沒有公務車大家很慘啊下雨天要坐捷運又要走路我看到這樣的發言啊我簡直是瞠目結舌啊何不食肉糜啊全國的公務人員哪一個不是這樣上班的啊監委有比較忙嗎"},{"start":63.24,"end":92.5,"text":"但是他講了一句啊 很有啟發性的話他說什麼他說不是只有監察院有公務車啊要查全面都要查啊來 先請秘書長 贊不贊成他這樣的呼籲跟委員報告 就是我想所有的機關在使用公務車的時候都應該遵守相當的規定OK 好 來 我們來看一下考試院目前有12部首長專用車 1部副首長專用車我指的是院本部喔"},{"start":93.601,"end":117.693,"text":"其他的 選序部 考選部以及保訓會的我還沒有算保訓會的在下一張考選部 選序部 保訓會總共有九部正部首長專用車院本部有十二部首長專用車現在這十二部首長專用車是怎麼使用的可不可以簡單跟大家說明一下我有一個院長 副院長嘛他們都是首長嗎"},{"start":118.592,"end":120.013,"text":"12部扣掉4部 正副院長 正副秘書長還有8部"},{"start":140.789,"end":151.383,"text":"然後有六個考試委員我們六位考試委員他們現在考試委員的那個載送他們的車輛他們的使用方法也是一樣要提出拍車單"},{"start":152.375,"end":174.55,"text":"一樣要提出派車單所以不是專用車有沒有固定的司機?跟委員報告其實慣例上面以前都是專用車在很多屆前那在幾屆以前有立法院做成決議就認為烤尾不應該是專用車有沒有落實?有 這個部分有因為烤尾的車輛都要接受公務車的調排所以司機跟烤尾"},{"start":175.35,"end":199.961,"text":"不是專屬的關係但是他還是會有一個對應關係沒有專屬的關係有對應關係我的意思就是說那你還敢講有落實喔因為這樣考委的車輛也要接受公務車的調度所以也就是說如果因為我們就是如果公務車需要量比較多的時候那我們的單位會調配沒有啦不要講這些雜七雜八的我現在只有問首長專用車嘛是"},{"start":203.923,"end":227.038,"text":"在你們給立法院公務車的車輛明細表裡面有12輛首長專用車嘛扣掉正副院長、正副秘書長還有8輛嘛然後考試委員有6名嘛所以呢首長專用車的數量大於所有院本部的正副首長這樣講沒有錯吧對 因為這次考試委員提名人數就沒有到9位"},{"start":230.5,"end":257.003,"text":"在問我最關鍵的問題以前啦是 上一屆國會的時候秘書長應該很清楚啊你有被檢舉過啊搭公務車然後出入清平台基金會大樓那個時候潘孟安 姚立民也有一起與會這個事情你還記得吧對 這個是我是去拜會清平台的鄭麗君董事長所以這是公務我去拜會他這個部分是公務是公務"},{"start":257.603,"end":273.372,"text":"晚上九點是公務應該說我們在拜會相關民間智庫的話這個其實也是都做這是民間智庫還是賴清德的民間競選總部因為這個部分我沒有參與但是你確定沒有參與真的沒有參與"},{"start":274.831,"end":301.608,"text":"我是去拜會那個...上一屆啊立法委員問這一題問得很溫和啊那時候我人不在立法院啊我也想說算了就尊重那一屆啊立委的職責我只是要喚起你的記憶啊喚起你的記憶啊同時讓所有考試院的正副院長啊大家一起共同勉勵共同警惕啊公務車是不是可以這樣用啊現在事情風波變成這個樣子啊"},{"start":304.315,"end":313.522,"text":"那既然有監委呼籲要查全面就要查那沒關係那我們就來全面的清查"},{"start":314.983,"end":338.922,"text":"是不是可以請考試院包括所屬的兩部還有保訓會針對今年考試委員以及你們正副首長使用公務車的情況派車單的影本以及公務車司機加班的情況每個月加班的時數以及加班費會後把資料送給全體司法法治委員會的委員可以嗎需要多久 三天之內"},{"start":340.066,"end":367.125,"text":"好 我們盡快好 三天之內喔 今年所有的狀況提到司法法治委員會然後我們說到狀況以後有沒有必要排狀案報告我再請我們的召委啊來加以斟酌來進入啊 今天的主題啊中憲院長當初啊 在考試院院長提名權的時候我事實上在跟他詢問 他有跟我承諾說他一定會提出公務員保障法的修正草案這件事情有做到"},{"start":368.526,"end":392.428,"text":"周院長說到做到說到做到我沒有後悔當初投他一個贊成票但是現在我們今天要進入整個法規範細部的討論逐條的時候我們可以再交換意見但有幾個大的原則性的問題來我先請教一下保育訓會的主委裡面有說啦 就針對"},{"start":393.769,"end":404.498,"text":"霸凌的狀況 機關首長經認定職場霸凌成立處一萬元以上 一百萬元以下的罰款這是考試員的提案嘛好 那這個機關首長怎麼定義啊機關 不好意思機關首長指的就是 我們是相對於這個治安法裡面他講的是民間的部署是啦 是啦 那治安法是民間的嘛在公務機關的機關首長如何定義"},{"start":420.606,"end":440.152,"text":"他在整個組織法裡面呢 他明定就是長理跟負責整個機關政務的推動的那一個負責人 最主要負責人 那我們稱為他就是機關首長依照啊 就是中央行政機關組織法的規定我們的機關首長有四級嘛有一級機關 二級機關 三級機關 四級機關嘛四級到第四級的機關首長全部都算是嗎是好來 我們下一個 司長算嗎"},{"start":452.617,"end":462.844,"text":"他算單位主管 他不算機關首長那現在問題就來啦單位主管 師長就很大啦哎唷哎唷 謝禮喔 謝禮 謝禮 謝禮我們先休息 先休息 好"},{"start":491.501,"end":501.025,"text":"民主黨你先坐著休息沒事齁沒有沒有沒有這個不是任何人的問題就民主黨先休息"},{"start":520.621,"end":522.882,"text":"那個立法院這邊有義務室啊那我們再請他們過來一下"},{"start":541.334,"end":541.755,"text":"那個那個"},{"start":577.876,"end":593.494,"text":"各位委員 如果我們讓他們到巡打的位置 大家可以接受嗎好 那我們就 主委 我們就到那個官員的位置那邊去接受巡打這個台子壞掉"},{"start":605.744,"end":605.944,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":632.619,"end":637.193,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":667.214,"end":667.234,"text":"這個螢幕"},{"start":734.667,"end":753.175,"text":"好那民主黨等一下如果你有任何需要或不舒服你都隨時跟我們說不用擔心擔入會議的進行就隨時跟我講那我們需要停止或是你有什麼需求就直接跟我們說好謝謝委員關心以身體健康為第一優先抱歉個人身體狀況這個身體的問題絕對不是任何人有什麼不對的地方"},{"start":758.357,"end":782.09,"text":"所以只要有什麼問題你隨時跟我說以您的身體健康為我的第一考量是 謝謝 不好意思那我們就會議繼續謝謝主席其實我是歉意啦看是不是直接讓秘書長先離席我剛剛有跟秘書長說就是秘書長如果需要請假可以先請假回去沒有關係 謝謝委員讓我坐著 謝謝"},{"start":784.904,"end":801.946,"text":"那請秘書長隨時注意一下身體狀況或有沒有撞傷或什麼一定要講好謝謝秘書長OK好那就繼續下去就麻煩保訓會的主委回答就好了所以我們先從法條的定義開始司長不在你們這次所提出法案的機關首長的範圍當中對不對"},{"start":804.762,"end":825.963,"text":"他不算機關首長,但是他算是負責人之一,因為如果說在現場當中他是實際指揮監督者。我就具體的講我的法律意見,從過去衛福部所發生的案子,清楚的呈現出來,不用到機關首長,部門主管的權勢就很大了。"},{"start":827.13,"end":852.01,"text":"部門主管的權勢就很大了就問一問一般的公務員 司長大不大司長講的話敢不敢違逆為什麼會有司長叫人家在那邊要深蹲做福利挺身還叫下屬自殺這個應該都是落入你們這一次保訓會所提出的公務員職場霸凌的定義範圍內沒有錯吧"},{"start":855.532,"end":881.531,"text":"你要按麥克風是對嘛那現在問題就來啦屬於你們所定義的職場霸凌範疇但因為他不符合機關首長的定義那導致沒有辦法對他進行行政上面的罰環而他現實上是什麼現實上公務體系裡面公務員隨便問一問就知道詮釋很大了啦那要不然在衛福部怎麼會出現這樣令人髮指的狀況"},{"start":884.38,"end":912.712,"text":"沒有關係 我質詢就是要把這個point把它講出來那具體法條討論的時候我跟其他的委員包括吳宗憲委員 羅志強委員等等我們所提出來的修正動議到具體條文的時候我們再來進一步討論希望到時候考試院保訓會的心胸能夠放寬一點全部把它嚴格限定在機關首長保護的範圍是不是足夠這件事情可能要討論一下"},{"start":914.053,"end":923.844,"text":"我的時間到了 我最後只問一題跟今天所提的法律案有關係的我們都到主條再來處理我最後一個問題 請教一下全序部的"},{"start":924.676,"end":951.397,"text":"我們之前啊 就那個警察人員人事條例啊台灣民眾黨團的立場是我們要保護我們警消的同仁他們非常的辛苦 非常的辛苦在政策上 權序部有不一樣的看法我理解 因為你們要面對所有的公務員那警消特別處理你們權序部一直有不一樣的看法這個我都理解但問題是這個法律案現在已經三讀通過了"},{"start":952.608,"end":967.461,"text":"那我得到一些基層我們警消退休的人員他們的反應是說三讀通過了到底什麼時候要做然後我找警政署來說現在跟你們好像有一些意見不一樣需要多久來請玄虛部"},{"start":968.474,"end":993.701,"text":"我跟委員報告一下第一個這個法律已經在今年4月25日那個總統公布生效這是一個有效法律我們本部一定會執行這個大家不用擔心那另外因為在這個法通過以後事實上那個實際執行上面我們事實上在4月29號5月16號跟5月28號兩部的就內政部跟本部的政務次長都有召開會議因為有些執行上細節並不是還需要多久"},{"start":995.062,"end":1012.219,"text":"我目前大概警政署他必須要研修一個警察條例的適應細則那因為現在的這個所以現在是警政署那邊的問題對因為我們這個有很多討論因為很多細節這我跟委員報告我也是繼承公園出身的是這法律通過不是我們想像說好像訂貼貼"},{"start":1013.74,"end":1035.191,"text":"尤其這個裡面大概沒有退休人就跟沒有退休人你把要做的工作還有需要多久清楚的讓大家知道讓所有基層的同仁可以知道就好這個我們現在大概後續還要再進行一個叫做電腦系統的一個需求處理那那個部分我們跟專業單位討論過大概需要三個月時間因為這是三個月時間對對對因為這是沒有關係就等你三個月那我也跟委員因為今天你時間講出來了嘛對對"},{"start":1040.134,"end":1067.813,"text":"那大家就等你三個月三個月要完成電腦系統以後我們才可以開始作業不是說三個月就把這個事情做好所以總共需要多久我們是預計因為我們考慮到我們也考慮到我們部裡面同仁的工作複合喔大概電腦如果很順利能夠三個月把它完成的話我們大概預判應該在年底以前應該都可以把它完成年底以前對 把四萬多年前完成沒有關係啦而且這個都會追溯你們需要時間喔一定給你們時間"},{"start":1070.394,"end":1099.176,"text":"那只是全責要理清楚那你要給大家一個清楚心理的預期嘛這些基層的公務人員他們退休了以後知道你們辛苦需要時間處理這大家都可以理解那我也肯定今天選區部表現了一個態度立法院三讀通過了法律你們會遵守 會執行這個態度非常的好啊這個態度真的非常的好啊比現在行政院院長卓榮他的態度啊好太多了"},{"start":1100.185,"end":1121.209,"text":"那只是在具體執行的時間上你們說希望年底以前完成那就拜託學區部的同仁跟我們警政署的同仁加把勁因為對於這些退休警囂給他們保障這件事情他們期待了非常久法律完成三讀的盡量能夠趕快真正的施行謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時17分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請考試院秘書長、保訓會蔡主任委員，還有銓敘部的懷政次。"],["主席：請劉秘書長、蔡主任委員、懷政次。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：三位早。時間的關係，不一一問候。","最近監察院濫用公務車的狀況引爆全國人民的怒火，昨天有立法委員檢舉，說接到檢舉，有監委濫用公務車，結果那個監委大嗆，說他沒有公務車搭很慘，下雨天要坐捷運、還要走路。我看到這樣的發言，簡直是瞠目結舌，覺得何不食肉糜？全國的公務人員哪一個不是這樣上班的？監委有比較忙嗎？但是他講了一句很有啟發性的話，他說什麼？他說不是只有監察院有公務車，要查全面都要查！","先請問秘書長贊不贊成他這樣的呼籲？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，我想所有機關在使用公務車的時候都應該遵守相關的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下，考試院目前有12部首長專用車、1部副首長專用車，我指的是院本部喔！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：其他銓敘部、考選部以及保訓會的，我還沒有算。保訓會的資料在本席的下一張PPT，考選部、銓敘部、保訓會總共有9部正副首長專用車，院本部有12部首長專用車，現在這12部首長專用車是怎麼使用的？可不可以簡單跟大家說明一下？院長、副院長都是首長嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：首長專用車現在就是院長、副院長、秘書長和副秘書長……"],["黃委員國昌：4台？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這4台就是定義上……"],["黃委員國昌：其他考試委員呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其他考試委員的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：6個考試委員嘛！對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們有6位考試委員。"],["黃委員國昌：12部扣掉4部正副院長、正副秘書長，還有8部嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：然後有6個考試委員？"],["劉秘書長建忻：現在載送我們6位考試委員的車輛，他們的使用方法也是一樣要提出派車單。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣要提出派車單，所以不是專用車？有沒有固定的司機？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，其實慣例上以前都是專用車，在很多屆前，不過在幾屆以前立法院有做成決議，認為考委不應該是專用車……"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有落實？"],["劉秘書長建忻：有，這個部分有，因為考委的車輛都要接受公務車的調派。"],["黃委員國昌：所以司機跟考委不是專屬的關係？"],["劉秘書長建忻：但是他還是會有一個對應關係，只是他……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有專屬的關係，有對應關係喔？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我的意思是，考委的車輛……"],["黃委員國昌：那你還敢講有落實喔？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為考委的車輛也要接受公務車的調度，也就是說，如果公務車需要量比較多的時候，我們單位會調配載送考委上下班的用車。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，不要講這些雜七雜八的，我現在只有問首長專用車。在你們給立法院公務車的車輛明細表裡面，有12輛首長專用車，扣掉正副院長、正副秘書長後還有8輛，考試委員有6名，所以首長專用車的數量大於所有院本部的正副首長，這樣講沒有錯吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，因為這次考試委員提名人數沒有到9位。"],["黃委員國昌：我在問最關鍵的問題以前，上一屆國會的時候，秘書長應該很清楚，你有被檢舉過搭公務車出入青平台基金會大樓，那時候潘孟安、姚立明也有一起與會，這件事情你還記得吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，那一次我是去拜會青平台的鄭麗君董事長。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是公務？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我去拜會他這個部分……"],["黃委員國昌：是公務？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是公務。"],["黃委員國昌：晚上9點是公務？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該說我們在拜會相關民間智庫的話，這個其實也是都做一些……"],["黃委員國昌：這是民間智庫，還是賴清德的民間競選總部？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個部分我沒有參與，但是我……"],["黃委員國昌：你確定沒有參與？真的沒有參與？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是去拜會鄭麗君董事長。"],["黃委員國昌：上一屆立法委員問這一題問得很溫和，那時候我人不在立法院，我也想說算了，就尊重那一屆立委的職責。我只是要喚起你的記憶，同時讓所有考試院的正副院長大家一起共同勉勵、共同警惕，公務車是不是可以這樣用？現在風波變成這個樣子，既然有監委呼籲要查就要全面查，沒關係！那我們就來全面清查。是不是可以請考試院，包括所屬的兩部，還有保訓會，針對今年考試委員以及你們正副首長使用公務車的情況、派車單影本以及公務車司機加班的情況（每個月加班的時數以及加班費），會後把資料送給全體司法及法制委員會的委員？可以嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，我回去來蒐整資料。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？3天之內？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，我們儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：3天之內喔！把今年所有的狀況提到司法及法制委員會，然後我們收到狀況以後，有沒有必要排專案報告，我再請召委來加以斟酌。","進入今天的主題，周弘憲院長當初在進行考試院院長同意權的時候，我在跟他詢答時，他有跟我承諾，他一定會提出公務人員保障法的修正草案，這件事情有做到，周院長說到做到，我沒有後悔當初投他一個贊成票。但是我們今天要進入整個法規範細部的討論，逐條的時候，我們可以再交換意見，但有幾個大的原則性的問題，我先請教保訓會主委。法裡面有說，針對霸凌的狀況，機關首長經認定職場霸凌成立者，處一萬元以上一百萬元以下罰鍰。這是考試院的提案嘛？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這個機關首長怎麼定義？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：機關首長指的就是，我們是相對於職安法裡面它講的是民間的雇主……"],["黃委員國昌：是啦，職安法是民間的嘛！在公務機關的機關首長如何定義？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：在整個組織法裡面明定，掌理跟負責整個機關政務推動的那一個最主要負責人，我們稱他為機關首長。"],["黃委員國昌：依照中央行政機關組織法的規定，我們的機關有四級，有一級機關、二級機關，三級機關、四級機關，到第四級的機關首長全部都算，是嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那司長算嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：他算單位主管，不算機關首長。"],["黃委員國昌：現在問題就來了，單位主管司長就很大啦……","小心喔！小心、小心！"],["主席：我們先休息。","秘書長，你先坐著休息，沒事吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：抱歉、抱歉！"],["主席：沒有、沒有，這個不是任何人的問題，秘書長先休息。","立法院這邊有醫務室，我們再請他們過來一下。","各位委員，如果我們讓官員坐到詢答的位置，大家可以接受嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：可以啊。"],["主席：好，主委，我們就到官員的位置那邊去接受詢答，因為這個台子壞掉了。","秘書長，等一下如果你有任何需要或不舒服，你隨時跟我們說，不用擔心耽誤會議的進行，就隨時跟我講，我們需要停止或是你有什麼需求，就直接跟我們說。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：身體健康為第一優先。"],["劉秘書長建忻：抱歉，個人身體狀況妨礙會議進行……"],["主席：不要抱歉，身體的問題絕對不是任何人有什麼不對的地方，所以只要有什麼問題，你隨時跟我說，以您的身體健康為我的第一考量。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，謝謝，不好意思！"],["主席：謝謝秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：抱歉！感謝委員。"],["主席：我們會議就繼續。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席，其實我是建議啦！看是不是直接讓秘書長先離席？"],["主席：有，我剛剛有跟秘書長說，秘書長如果需要請假，可以先請假回去，我們這邊沒關係。"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有關係，謝謝委員讓我坐著，謝謝。"],["主席：請秘書長要隨時注意身體狀況，看有沒有撞傷或什麼，一定要講。謝謝秘書長。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那就繼續下去了，就麻煩保訓會的主委回答就好了。所以我們先從法條的定義開始，司長不在你們這次所提出法案的機關首長的範圍當中，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：他不算機關首長，但是他算是負責人之一，因為如果在現場當中，他是實際指揮監督者。"],["黃委員國昌：我就具體的講我的法律意見，從過去衛福部所發生的案子可以清楚的呈現出來，不用到機關首長，部門主管的權勢就很大了，如果去問一般的公務員，司長大不大？司長講的話敢不敢違逆？為什麼有司長叫人家在那邊要深蹲、做伏地挺身，還叫下屬自殺，這個應該都是落入這一次保訓會所提出的公務員職場霸凌的定義範圍內，沒有錯吧？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！現在問題就來了，屬於你們所定義的職場霸凌範疇，但因為他不符合機關首長的定義，導致沒有辦法對他處以行政上的罰鍰，而現實上是什麼？現實上在公務體系裡面，隨便問一問公務員就知道，他的權勢很大了！要不然在衛福部怎麼會出現這樣令人髮指的狀況？沒有關係，我質詢就是要把這個point講出來。我跟其他委員，包括吳宗憲委員、羅智強委員等等，所提出來的修正動議，到處理具體條文的時候，我們再來進一步討論，希望到時候考試院、保訓會的心胸能夠放寬一點，全部嚴格限定在機關首長，保護的範圍是不是足夠？這件事情可能要討論一下。我的時間到了，跟今天所提的法律案有關係的，我們都到逐條再來處理。","我最後一個問題請教一下銓敘部，之前就警察人員人事條例，台灣民眾黨團的立場是我們要保護警消同仁，因為他們非常辛苦。在政策上，銓敘部有不一樣的看法，我理解，因為你們要面對所有的公務員，針對警消特別處理，銓敘部一直有不一樣的看法，我都理解。但問題是這個法律案現在已經三讀通過，一些基層警消退休人員反映，三讀通過了，到底什麼時候要做？我找警政署來，說現在跟你們好像有一些意見不一樣，需要多久？請銓敘部。"],["懷次長敍：第一個、這個法律已經在今年4月25日經總統公布生效，這是一個有效法律，本部一定會執行，大家不用擔心。另外，這個法通過以後的實際執行，事實上在4月29號、5月16號跟5月28號內政部跟本部政務次長都有召開會議，因為有些執行上的細節並不是……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？"],["懷次長敍：目前警政署必須要研修警察人員人事條例的施行細則，因為現在的這個情況……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在是警政署的問題？"],["懷次長敍：對，這有很多討論，因為有很多細節。我也是基層公務員出身的，這個法律通過不是我們想像的好像明訂一些……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。"],["懷次長敍：尤其這個裡面已經退休的人就跟沒有退休的人超過4萬人。"],["黃委員國昌：你把要做的工作還有需要多久清楚地讓大家知道，讓所有基層的同仁可以知道就好。"],["懷次長敍：沒問題。我們後續還要再進行電腦系統的需求處理，那個部分我們跟專業單位討論過，大概需要三個月的時間，因為這涉及到……"],["黃委員國昌：三個月時間？"],["懷次長敍：對，因為這涉及到需求……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，就等你三個月。"],["懷次長敍：我也跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：因為今天你時間講出來了，大家就等你三個月。"],["懷次長敍：對，三個月要完成電腦系統以後，我們才可以開始作業，不是三個月就把這個事情做完。"],["黃委員國昌：所以總共需要多久？"],["懷次長敍：我們是預計，因為我們也要考慮到部裡同仁的工作負荷，如果很順利能夠三個月把電腦系統完成，預判應該在年底以前可以把四萬多件都完成。"],["黃委員國昌：年底以前？"],["懷次長敍：對，把四萬多件都完成。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。"],["懷次長敍：但是這個都會追溯。"],["黃委員國昌：你們需要時間，一定給你們時間，只是權責要釐清。"],["懷次長敍：會。"],["黃委員國昌：你要給大家一個清楚的心理預期，這些基層的公務人員退休了以後，知道你們辛苦、需要時間處理，大家都可以理解。我也肯定今天銓敘部表現了一個態度，立法院三讀通過的法律，你們會遵守、會執行，這個態度非常好，這個態度真的非常的好！比現在行政院院長卓榮泰的態度好太多了，只是在具體執行的時間上，你們說希望年底以前完成，那就拜託銓敘部的同仁跟警政署的同仁加把勁，因為對於給這些退休警消保障這件事情，他們期待了非常久。既然法律完成三讀了，儘量能夠趕快真正的施行。謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":502,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","林月琴","黃國昌","翁曉玲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","羅智強","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","李彥秀"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨\n團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人\n員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員李昆澤\n等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人\n員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員\n任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十\n八條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00006"}}},{"id":"162254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56402191e5c3e3421a233769fbc08eef2e947c2ef1f362baa4a7307c4a423e313cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:30:59 - 09:42:39","影片長度":"00:11:40","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:30:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:42:39+08:00","duration":700,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.78909375,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.395343750000002,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.63159375,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.38659375,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.094093750000003,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.78534375,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.70784375000001,"end":103.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.27096875000001,"end":111.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.19909375,"end":123.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.37034375,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.43784375000001,"end":123.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.57284375,"end":123.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.69096875000001,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.97784375,"end":165.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.75596875000002,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.18909375,"end":180.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.33596875,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.95409375,"end":222.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.19034375,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":234.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.50909375,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.72846875000002,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.04721875,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.84034375000002,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.15909375,"end":276.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.73034375000003,"end":279.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.86534375,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.81846875,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.91034375000004,"end":296.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.40284375000005,"end":296.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.96346875,"end":298.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.27971875000003,"end":391.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.39346875,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.66346875,"end":326.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.64909375,"end":400.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.35659375,"end":404.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.28409375,"end":410.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.29159375,"end":422.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.13784375,"end":427.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.48721875,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.18096875000003,"end":446.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.45909375,"end":446.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.50971875000005,"end":488.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.11034375,"end":492.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.41409375,"end":492.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.69659375000003,"end":492.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.05096875000004,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.72596875000005,"end":497.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.72534375000004,"end":500.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.99909375000004,"end":550.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.66221875,"end":575.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.0647187500001,"end":572.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.86534375,"end":575.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.0803437500001,"end":575.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.2490937499999,"end":585.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.41221875,"end":585.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.96471875,"end":591.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.1328437500001,"end":607.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.6640937500001,"end":593.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.37221875,"end":597.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.95284375,"end":607.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.9697187500001,"end":607.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.9865937500001,"end":608.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.0034687500001,"end":627.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.89034375,"end":648.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.43596875,"end":655.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.9284687500001,"end":698.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.4028437500001,"end":699.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.88784375,"end":699.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.003,"end":11.464,"text":"有請次長再進入到申請世界遺產文化遺產的部分"},{"start":28.737,"end":51.346,"text":"市長來討論一個問題這個跟文化部是有相關的 下一頁我們看到的是在這個叫做避拒原則避拒原則就是因為在文化的多元發展當中它非常的重要它要維護它的文化的自主跟文化的這樣子的一個特殊性那這部分它特別要排除掉一個屬於"},{"start":53.607,"end":59.389,"text":"正式上面的干擾我們看到文化紀編法當中就提到在第21條當中有這些相關的條文比如說在文化部門在做相關的機構委託的時候必須要做到所謂的避拒原則是非常重要的那我們看到的是政前部長他在"},{"start":72.873,"end":87.396,"text":"這個在107年也提到是說這個在有行政法人成立出來的時候呢必具原則是非常重要是能夠讓這樣子的一個文化的治理呢常擁有這個政治跟這個在文化當中呢必須要有它的一個專業知識體系那在這地方的話文創原則院的條例當中也呈現出這個部分必須要多元的這樣子的一個發展那我們再繼續看下一頁"},{"start":96.958,"end":103.483,"text":"那這個時候呢我們看到的是今年的這一部分我們先問一下文策院是否也適應這個必具原則呢當然啊當然適用嘛對不對所以主要人事任命是否應該跟政治保持距離呢"},{"start":112.341,"end":136.072,"text":"跟政治保持距離可是必須跟政策能夠維持一個相同的聯繫或者是一個溝通的一個管道這個本身你們自己在文策院當中就有文化部的代表文化部的這個理事在裡面的這部分就可以呈現出來那我們現在看過去的歷史經驗照您所說的部分過去曾經有"},{"start":136.992,"end":165.444,"text":"三位的三位的但是在兩個任期當中的這個文策院的歷任董事長可是我們看到的是丁曉慶他後來是在正式完之後才卸任之後才轉任的彭俊亨他是曾任文化部的次長那後來的話因為被這部分呢他是有文化經歷但是我們看看蔡佳慶這部分剛剛的五月份卸任的這個情況他是業界的人士但是今年五月份上任的董事長呢"},{"start":166.824,"end":192.997,"text":"文化部發布的命令是在這邊是文化部的政治王實施來兼任那這個部分當中跟過去的經歷是很不一樣的我們看到這個過去的經歷那文化部當時也遵守這樣的一個原則我們就往下看那這個時候我們現在看到跟過去的這個相比的時候呢王實施市長他在做這樣子的兼任到文策院的這個新任董事長你覺得他有更符合必具原則的法律要求嗎"},{"start":195.097,"end":221.252,"text":"當然還是符合啦因為他現在是兼任他並不是去專任這個董事會的董事長他是以兼任的方式而且這個兼任最主要的目的是因為我們文策院的投資的這個基金是來自於國發會那國發會他撥了這個基金過來的時候他還是會有些很政策上面的一個要求跟我們在審慎每一個投資案的時候他希望我們要一個很完備的一個程序"},{"start":222.373,"end":246.086,"text":"但你的意思是說過去的前面的兩任有三位的董事長在文化部任命的這個董事長中他們就沒有具備所謂文化政策的這個立函是嗎所以他們都曾經擔任過文化部的政務次長所以他們了解文化政策跟政策方向跟整個文策院的"},{"start":247.596,"end":272.99,"text":"這個投資裡面該怎麼處理 可是你本身就有一個理事在裡面喔那重點 董事在裡面 那我們現在重要的是難道台灣文化界就沒有其他合乎必具原則的非政務人員的人選嗎例如說像好名藝人先生啊這部分你事實上這樣子一個任命就是在踐踏 可能說是忽略我剛剛說回 說忽略到其他部分在文化界當中而且文策院當中本身就是一個行政法人的這個地位當中就是要比較重視到讓他的獨立性能夠呈現出來"},{"start":280.574,"end":296.683,"text":"這部分當然是非常尊重委員的一個建議跟發言因為這個董事長不是我們想要他擔任他就願意也要看對方尤其業界人士因為這個承擔這個地方我不去講因為那個任期是固定的"},{"start":298.444,"end":315.135,"text":"都是到五月的部分所以你們早就知道任期到這一屆的時候就會停止早就可以好好的物色了這部分尤其是那個理院部長的時候他去年就已經就任了有一年多的時間他可以去好好物色人才我想如果有文化界的人士他願意到這個文策院當董事長的話應該是非常樂意他能夠把文化界的這樣部分的意見呈現出來"},{"start":320.319,"end":323.923,"text":"好那下面我們再繼續看下去我就這部分我們好那我就再我再還是講我這邊部分好了文創的這個投資產業我們看到過去的這個一個態度的過去的集中這部分看到在103年的時候也是國發基金在投資您說的這也沒錯我們看到103年的時候"},{"start":340.562,"end":368.404,"text":"監察院111年的審計部跟110年預算中心他都呈現出來了過度集中在電影產業影視音的這部分那你們後來的時候呢這邊你自己國發會的黑潮企劃也提出來這樣的一個需求就是說應該要捐助到文字出版動漫跟傳統戲劇等等的那我現在最重要的再問的是說你們後來在自己的114年的文社院的營運目標當中也把它放進去但是才放到實案"},{"start":369.465,"end":389.937,"text":"非影視的部分才放實案這樣的情況那我們繼續往下看的時候那這樣的情況指標114年才做了這樣的一個部分那114年在做那個指標那你變更的原因我知道應該是也是被其他單位做了很多的一個糾正或是說要修訂的那我們繼續往下看的情況就是說"},{"start":391.698,"end":410.083,"text":"你們真的對於這些部分的時候有沒有的如果他針對這個影視業的產業的話不要過分集中在這個影視音樂部分的時候那你們的這個標準是什麼往下看就是說他們長期偏見那你們現在已經造成這個結果那要什麼樣的具體策略去達成"},{"start":411.485,"end":427.014,"text":"跟委員做一個說明影視其實文策院他不只在投資影視業他其實各個產業都會投資只是影視業他本來的投資成本就是他的製作成本就是比較高所以那個金額你會用金額來做"},{"start":428.55,"end":444.664,"text":"母數來做比例的話你會覺得它佔了很高的比例可是如果真的從案件數或者是比例上來講影視並沒有那麼樣的傾斜那當然我們現在也一直在跟文策院溝通也一直鼓勵我們其他產業能夠努力的來接受投資的概念"},{"start":446.605,"end":453.991,"text":"具體我希望我到下一次的時候在這個部分跟我一年之後來去做這個檢討然後現在我們再繼續往下看就是世界遺產這部分剛才柯市問委員有提到這部分就是說我們沒有個應考資格這一部分的確是你怎麼繼續再說這個準備其實是沒有問題我覺得剛才也聽到一個很重要的點在於說您說你們跟外交部這些其他的教育部等等的都有在做這個推展"},{"start":474.366,"end":488.302,"text":"那這個部分想到的是說,那外交部,你們應該知道我們沒辦法變成UNESCO的最重要條約的簽約國、締約國等等最重要的原因是不是因為我們不是聯合國的會員國是的,那你知道我們要成為聯合國的最重要原因是什麼呢?"},{"start":491.902,"end":506.081,"text":"國際間的阻礙是什麼中國啊是中國對不對那中國這部分的時候如果是在這個情況之下這個部分所以必須國家的部分應該必須在這邊要做很大的一個很多的部分的調整啦那在正中央"},{"start":506.121,"end":511.123,"text":"我們剛才有聽到柯市委委員說如果外交部或是我們國家沒有把說怎麼樣去改善中國的關係的話這邊的話這是一個很重要的原因剛才也說了所以我想國家應該以這邊的中國關係的改善作為重點另外剛才也說了缺乏法律的依據我們看到在這個100年的時候朱明賢教授他有提到這邊就是說缺乏法律的一個依據"},{"start":533.311,"end":549.956,"text":"那這部份教授他提出來了應該建議是世界文化及自然遺產保護法必須要訂定的另外的呢這部份請問市長有沒有要求有沒有可以承諾在什麼時候應該要把一個願板提出來或是至少你們的布板要提到願板裡面去"},{"start":550.914,"end":566.765,"text":"跟委員做說明因為我們其實你要成為潛力點要成為我們這個潛力點他第一個他必須要先有文資法或者是剛剛講國家森林法他都一定要先有另外一個法定的資格之後他才能夠談第二步的"},{"start":568.506,"end":588.944,"text":"請問現在的文化資產保存法有嗎已經在這邊已經有修法了已經放進去內容了是嗎對啊 就像剛剛我們森林鐵路它就是文化景觀它就是我們的文化資產法裡面所保護的也有法令地位的一個文化景觀但是這個景觀有跟這個世界文化生產遺址的部分有做連結的嗎"},{"start":590.425,"end":596.37,"text":"還是在所謂的文化資產保存法的條件當中對 我們文資法裡面就是參考這個國際世界遺產的這個組織的類別來訂了所謂有文化景觀這樣的一個類別然後裡面要達到的標準會要求我們也都是參考了國際的一個規格在處理的好"},{"start":608.619,"end":627.475,"text":"希望剛才也問到財務的狀況包括我們說人員財務還有環境這邊因為一定要在條件上面說環境的規劃當中如果你們現在已經有這些的規劃的點這部分它是說在這個規劃點的至少往外擴一公里的地方它必須要做一些開始做保護了你們開始已經往這邊方向進行了嗎"},{"start":630.106,"end":654.412,"text":"關於整個就是受文資法保護的那個類似定著區的範圍要多大這個都靠審議委員會他們來做一個實地的勘查以後看這個狀況並不是在法令裡面直接去確定說你隨時你要怎麼如果他們有需要擴充範圍的話他只要提出申請在我們的審議委員會裡面通過的話我們就會重新公告他的保護範圍"},{"start":655.532,"end":659.196,"text":"好這部分因為是根據這個世界遺產保護法裡面的這個這個條例這邊有提到這些內容啦希望是說依照國際你剛才講說有一個意涵是說讓我們知道國家有想要往這邊方向去做文化的資產的保護包括自然景觀的保護所以跟內政部跟這個"},{"start":674.17,"end":689.56,"text":"其他的我剛才有說的外交部這邊甚至我們整個國家的立場上面這部分整個都必須要以整體的說當這個目標是最很好的但是針對怎麼樣透過文化來去提升我們的遺產的這個保護呢去提升我們國際地位這是應該繼續再加強的包括未來我希望說我當然會繼續針對財務還有環境證包括篩房等等都有在做繼續的一個監督好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝劉淑冰委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（9時31分）有請次長。"],["主席：有請李次長。"],["李次長靜慧：委員早。"],["劉委員書彬：次長好。在進入申請世界文化遺產這部分，我先跟次長討論一個問題，這跟文化部是相關的。我們看到臂距原則，臂距原則在文化多元發展當中非常重要，要維護文化自主跟文化的特殊性，這部分大家特別要排除掉屬於政治上面的干擾。我們可以看到文化基本法第二十一條有這些相關條文，文化部在做相關的機構委託時，必須要做到所謂的臂距原則，這是非常重要的。","我們看到鄭前部長在107年也提到，在行政法人成立之後，臂距原則是非常重要的，透過文化治理，讓政治跟文化中必須要有它的專業支持體系。在這個地方，文策院的條例當中也呈現出這個部分，需要這樣子的多元發展。這時候我們看到今年這部分……先問一下，文策院是否也適用臂距原則呢？"],["李次長靜慧：當然。"],["劉委員書彬：當然適用，對不對，所以主要人事任命是否應該要跟政治保持距離呢？"],["李次長靜慧：跟政治保持距離，可是必須跟政策能夠維持一個相同的聯繫或者是一個溝通的管道。"],["劉委員書彬：你們本身在文策院當中就有文化部的代表、文化部的理事在裡面了，這部分就可以呈現出來。我們看一下過去的歷史經驗，照您所說的部分，過去曾經有三位在兩個任期當中的文策院歷任董事長，可是我們看到丁曉菁後來是政次卸任才轉任的；彭俊亨是曾任文化部次長，後來因為被……這部分他有文化經歷；我們看蔡嘉駿5月份卸任，他是業界人士；但是今年5月份上任的董事長，文化部發布的命令是文化部政次王時思來兼任，這與過去的經歷是很不一樣的。我們看過去的經歷，文化部當時也遵守這個原則，我們看到跟過去相比，王時思次長兼任文策院的新任董事長，你覺得他有更符合臂距原則的法律要求嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：當然還是符合，因為他現在是兼任，並不是去專任董事長，是以兼任的方式，而且這個兼任最主要的目的是文策院投資基金來自國發會，國發會撥基金過來時，還是會有些很政策上面的要求。我們在審慎審查每一個投資案時，它希望我們要有很完備的投資程序。"],["劉委員書彬：你的意思是說，過去前面兩任有三位由文化部任命的董事長中，他們就沒有具備文化政策的義涵，是嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：當然有，他們都曾經擔任過文化部的政務次長，所以他們瞭解文化政策方向跟整個文策院的投資該怎麼處理。"],["劉委員書彬：表示你們本身就有一個董事在裡面，今天重要的是，難道臺灣文化界就沒有其他合乎臂距原則的非政務人員人選嗎，譬如像郝明義先生？事實上，這樣的任命就是在踐踏，或者是忽略……我剛剛的收回，忽略其他部分在文化界當中，而且文策院當中本身就是行政法人的地位，就是要比較重視，讓它的獨立性能夠呈現出來，這邊的政治任命應該要排除，意思就是在這裡。"],["李次長靜慧：這個部分，我們當然非常尊重委員的建議跟發言，因為這個董事長不是我們想要他擔任他就願意，也要看對方，尤其是業界人士，因為承擔這個責任，業界人士不一定願意擔任……"],["劉委員書彬：這個地方我必須講，因為他們的任期是固定的，都是到5月，所以你們早就知道他們的任期到這一屆就會停止，早就可以好好物色了。這部分尤其是在李遠部長的時候，他去年就已經就任了，有一年多的時間可以去好好物色人才。我想如果有文化界的人士願意到文策院當董事長的話，應該是非常樂意，因為這樣才能把文化界這部分的意見呈現出來。","下面我們再繼續看下去，這部分我們……我還是講這部分好了，有關文創的投資產業，我們看到過去的態度是過度集中。可以看到103年的時候，也是國發基金在投資，您說的沒錯。我們看103年的監察院、111年的審計部跟114年的預算中心都呈現出過度集中在電影產業、影視音的這個部分。你們後來的時候，他也……這邊有國發會的查核，對黑潮計畫也提出這樣的需求，應該要兼顧文字出版、動漫跟傳統戲劇等等。","我現在最重要的問題是，你們後來自己在114年文策院的營運目標當中也把它放進去，但非影視的部分也才放了10案。這樣的情況我們繼續往下看，114年才做了這樣的指標，你們變更的原因，我不知道是不是被其他單位做了很多的糾正，或者是要修訂。我們再繼續往下看這個情況，你們真的對這些部分有沒有……如果要針對影視產業……不要過分集中在影視音的部分，你們的標準是什麼？也就是說，他們長期偏斜，現在你們已經造成這個結果，要用什麼具體的策略去達成？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員做個說明，其實文策院不只投資在影視業，其實各個產業都會投資，只是影視業本來的投資成本、製作成本就是比較高，所以那個金額……你用金額作母數、作比例的話，你會覺得它占了很高的比例，可是如果真的從案件數，或者是從整個比例上來講，影視並沒有那麼樣地傾斜。當然，我們現在也一直在跟文策院溝通，也一直鼓勵其他產業能夠努力地接受「投資」這個概念。"],["劉委員書彬：好，如果是往這個方向發展的話，具體的部分希望我下一次再到這邊，一年之後再就這個部分檢討。","現在我們再繼續往下看，有關世界遺產這個部分，剛才柯志恩委員有提到，我們沒有應考資格，這部分的確是……繼續做這個準備其實是沒有問題的，我剛剛也聽到一個很重要的點在於，您說你們跟外交部、教育部等等都有在做推展，這個部分讓我想到，外交部……你應該知道我們沒有辦法變成UNESCO最重要的條約締約國，最重要的原因是不是我們不是聯合國的會員國？是的，那你知不知道我們沒辦法加入聯合國最大的原因是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：我們不能夠……"],["劉委員書彬：國際間的阻礙是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：中國啊！"],["劉委員書彬：是中國對不對？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["劉委員書彬：中國在這部分的時候……如果是在這個情況之下，國家必須在這邊做出很大的、很多部分的調整。在這種情況下，我們剛才聽到柯志恩委員說，如果外交部或我們國家沒有去改善與中國的關係的話，這邊……這是一個很重要的原理，剛才你也說了，所以我想國家應該要以與中國改善關係作為一個重點。","另外剛才也說了缺乏法律的依據，我們看到在100年的時候朱敏賢教授有提到，缺乏法律的依據，這部分是教授提出來的，應該建議世界文化及自然遺產保護法必須訂定。另外這部分，請問次長有沒有要求或可不可以承諾什麼時候應該要把一個院版提出來，或是至少把你們的部版提到院版裡面去？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員說明，因為我們其實整個……你要成為潛力點、要成為我們的潛力點，第一個它必須要先有文資法或者是剛剛講的國家森林的那個法，都一定要先有另外一個法定的資格之後，才能夠談第二步的那個潛力點。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這部分……"],["李次長靜慧：所以我們文資法其實有做了一個妥善的……"],["劉委員書彬：請問現在的文化資產保存法有嗎？已經在那邊有修法了？已經放進內容了是嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對啊！就像剛剛說的森林鐵路，它就是文化景觀，就是我們文化資產保存法中所保護的，也有法律地位的文化景觀。"],["劉委員書彬：但是這個景觀有跟申請世界文化遺產連結了嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：這個……"],["劉委員書彬：還是只存在於我們文化資產保存法的條件當中？"],["李次長靜慧：對，在我們的文資法裡面，就是參考國際世界文化遺產組織的類別而定出文化景觀的類別，裡面要達到的標準或要求，我們也都是參考國際的規格在處理。"],["劉委員書彬：好。剛才也問到財務的狀況，包括我們說的人員、財務還有環境這邊，就像上面說到的條件。在環境的規劃當中，如果你們現在已經有這些規劃的點，至少在這些規劃點往外擴1公里的地方必須開始做保護了，你們已經開始往這個方向進行了嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：關於整個受文資法保護類似定著區的範圍要多大，這個都靠審議委員會實地勘察以後看狀況，並不是在法律裡面直接去規定，你隨時要怎麼……如果他們有需要擴充範圍的話，只要提出申請，在我們的審議委員會裡面通過的話，我們就會重新公告它的保護範圍。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這部分因為是根據世界遺產保護法裡面的這個締約國……條例這邊有提到這些內容，希望移到國際……你剛才講，有一個意涵是說，讓我們知道國家想要往這邊發展，去做文化資產的保護，包括對自然景觀的保護，所以跟內政部，還有我剛剛說到的外交部，站在我們整個國家的立場上面，這部分整個都必須以整體的……把這個作為目標是很好的，但是針對怎麼透過文化提升我們對遺產的保護、提升我們的國際地位？這是應該要繼續加強的，包括未來我希望，當然我也會繼續針對財務還有環境，包括災防等等繼續監督，謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員，次長請回。","接下來請葛如鈞召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}},{"id":"162252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae564492f6fed20b818b633769fbc08eef2e947c2ef1f362baa4a76b3930739f4ced85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:17:00 - 09:30:53","影片長度":"00:13:53","會議時間":"2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-05","start_time":"2025-06-05T09:17:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-05T09:30:53+08:00","duration":833,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.785343750000001,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":16.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.516593750000002,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":73.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.36096875,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.03096875,"end":120.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.41284375000001,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.97284375,"end":129.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.96846875,"end":131.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.79909375,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.74409375000002,"end":137.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.79846875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.03034375000001,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.11471875,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.43534375000002,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.97534375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.02596875,"end":156.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.60971875,"end":163.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.02221875,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.96721875,"end":167.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.46034375000002,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.29221875000002,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.92909375000002,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.11471875,"end":193.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.36346875,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.67971875,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.99159375000002,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.44846875000002,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.59534375,"end":262.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.27034375000002,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.74284375000002,"end":224.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.97721875,"end":287.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.61471875,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.34034375000005,"end":310.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.96971875,"end":336.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.41284375000004,"end":337.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.42971875,"end":397.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.81346875,"end":340.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.09534375000004,"end":398.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.97284375000004,"end":403.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.22971875,"end":463.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.35096875000005,"end":487.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.85346875000005,"end":514.4990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.6128437500001,"end":525.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.11346875,"end":574.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6922187499999,"end":593.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.1172187500001,"end":582.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.87534375,"end":590.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.03534375,"end":601.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.2165937500001,"end":594.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.04659375,"end":643.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.6728437500001,"end":647.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.4953437500001,"end":652.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.6840937500001,"end":660.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.6453437499999,"end":660.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.1303437500001,"end":661.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.0247187500001,"end":663.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.45471875,"end":665.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.18034375,"end":689.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.54971875,"end":676.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.1003437500001,"end":709.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.97909375,"end":719.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.1928437500001,"end":720.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.0534687500001,"end":720.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.2178437500002,"end":731.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.61784375,"end":738.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.73409375,"end":766.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.69159375,"end":773.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.0872187500001,"end":780.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.99409375,"end":777.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.02721875,"end":789.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.5503437500001,"end":781.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.31284375,"end":789.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.30846875,"end":795.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.0290937500001,"end":829.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.38659375,"end":830.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.3103437500001,"end":831.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.96846875,"end":832.81221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.813,"end":23.104,"text":"好 谢谢赵伟 我们是不是请李次长好 有请李次长嗨 次长好今天为什么部长不出席有比这个备询更重要的事情吗还是他认为这个议题不是太重要所以请次长出来就可以了"},{"start":24.997,"end":33.182,"text":"這我不清楚因為我一開始接到的就是由我來出席因為當然文資的業務是由我來做當然如果說這個議題非常重要的話還是應該請部長親自出席我們來看一下書面報告92年開始推動98年我們就選出了17處的潛力點然後呢我們在99年的時候又把一處變成兩處然後共1899年"},{"start":48.912,"end":73.187,"text":"已经做了这件事情之后又过了15年感觉其他好像都在原地踏步没有什么进展更不要说是突破那说实在的申报世界遗产我们必须要做足功课依据申遗的指标就要提出文本篆拟18处的潜力点当中文本篆拟进度目前是完成11个还有7处没有完成那这个进度次长你满意吗"},{"start":76.025,"end":96.977,"text":"當然就覺得有點可惜啦就希望還是因為現在七處主要都是我們內政部所以說顯然起來還是覺得有很大空間嘛不是太滿意嘛但可以接受嘛但是我說實在我今天看了你十頁的報告字數三千多一點點最重要的是我看不到預期的目標執行的策略法制面怎麼樣來研修"},{"start":98.178,"end":127.399,"text":"跨部会又是如何如何有效管理我们推动了22年目前为止到底有没有评估跟检讨困难在哪里怎么解决这才是今天最大的重点我们希望把这些完全发扬光大但是我们到底做了什么22年来我们做的什么我们要问一个比较务实的问题世界遗产潜力点是业务是归哪一科我们文资局的国际交流科用于潜力点的一年预算是多少"},{"start":129.202,"end":156.497,"text":"這個部分有一個數字嗎多少你們應該知道預算多少一年預算多少大概五千萬五千萬上下不會吧就是補助那個地方縣市辦理我這邊資料我們要看對一下到時候弄清楚平均每一年一千五百萬到兩千萬一個點補助大概是一百五十到兩百萬這應該才是正確的數字喔台灣世界遺產推動會多久開會一次"},{"start":158.06,"end":167.078,"text":"要看 我們大概一年會開兩次的會議文化部的官員出席的層級部長部長一年有開到一到兩次會嗎"},{"start":168.533,"end":188.637,"text":"小野部長上任之後的兩次都是他親自主持好那我們來看一下喔你說你說一月就開始有第六屆的台灣世界遺產推動會我們開會就決定針對前一點特別是我們今天的主軸阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀那你們說要跟相關的民間團體來做合作推廣請問次長要跟哪一個民間團體合作民間機關哪一個民間團體"},{"start":198.001,"end":198.882,"text":"那我想請問文化部給這些年輕人什麼樣的鼓勵或什麼樣的支持支援"},{"start":217.492,"end":244.572,"text":"我们每一年都会支持就是主席高中的这个青年大使的团体所以你们给予经费给予非常多好那这个部分里面来说我们来看一下世界遗产推动会所做的决议以本席的立场来去看其实蛮担保的我看不出到底要怎么样其实科长很认真说实在但以他一个科去对国外来推展阿里山林业这个潜力点我觉得真的是对他来说太沉重"},{"start":245.473,"end":262.094,"text":"老实说从民国92年就是我们2003年文建会就把阿里山这样的部分列为辅导重点准备向全世界来做推广22年之后我们文建会已经变成文化部了你有什么具体的成果跟具体的绩效吗"},{"start":263.015,"end":286.59,"text":"而且我跟次長說 你說要跟大家來去開籌備國際會等等之類的說實在是蠻空泛 你要如何跨部會主政的機關寫的農業部理業署 寫的嘉義縣政府 寫的嘉義市政府還要不要再找交通部觀光署 國際聯繫要不要找外交部鐵道是位於阿里山國家公園鏈 要不要找內政部國家公園署這些都有沒有找 會議紀錄有沒有找這些人 有"},{"start":288.411,"end":310.244,"text":"外交部 内政部都有找是不是好 到时候把这些资料给本席来看一下而且还有很重要108年2019年7月你们文资局以这个阿里山林业纪铁道文艺化景观你把阿里山林业铁路登陆为第一个国家级的重要文化景观对不起 注意你们只有登陆"},{"start":311.104,"end":335.945,"text":"除了登陆文化部做的就是登陆还能做什么因为为什么为什么要谈到这个部分因为你们现在目前来说是一个很重要的国宝级的文化资产那文化部只能说一下登陆一下宣传一下但你有没有管理的权限你光是要整合这么多单位就很多行政的程序也非常的融常很重要的一点世界遗产的潜力点有没有法律依据法律依据有没有"},{"start":337.421,"end":363.006,"text":"目前就是刚刚讲的这个没有你们22年来没有修过任何一条法只有一个要点这么重要今天召委排的一个这么重要我们来反观22年来没有法源只有一个要点你告诉我22年来我们有很在乎我们文化世界文化疑点的这样子的盘点然后把它发扬光大吗我们光是这么样的一个具体没有法源这个要点22年"},{"start":365.026,"end":394.386,"text":"然后呢我说实在的以法治层面来说规范不足经费不足政府要设多少人力你才能够让阿里山林业跟铁道永续的经营我们要保存啊但是呢林业署要多少的经费可以让整个养护整个车辆的维持农业部的一个署的人力物力专业能力有没有办法然后如果像你们报告里面所提到的你们还要做调列这么多我想请问文化部有办法来接手或是主导吗"},{"start":395.066,"end":404.133,"text":"以這個方案來說 文化部可以主導來接手嗎文化部跟林業署的一直維持非常密切的合作關係我告訴你喔 很現實的問題啦阿里山鐵路基本的維修每年平均要六千萬如果不幸遇到颱風或石灘部分中斷還要額外經費"},{"start":412.839,"end":424.429,"text":"而且呢十年來阿里山談的十多年的民營化都很難以實現如果文化不承擔不起的話我告訴你五年十年一樣在原部塌地我們現在要找出解方這個報告三千字多一點點沒有解方也沒有預期的目標"},{"start":429.614,"end":432.915,"text":"所以你要以阿里山的鐵道絕對支持但是你們寫這個報告我看不出任何的前瞻性而且你還要砸更多的錢那文化部如果這樣子的話你們說把經費用於舉辦國際會議2022跟2023一場國際會議350萬然後呢加起來今年編330萬三年來1000多萬"},{"start":448.641,"end":462.863,"text":"绩效成果到底是如何二十二年代从过去文件化到文化部一三年花了一千多万到底我们对于这个所谓世界我们要真的把他这个世界遗产的这个前提点我们到底的绩效跟成果我们还是要问嘛对不对"},{"start":464.125,"end":486.976,"text":"这介绍成果到底如何我真的没有看到你们刚刚所讲的对我来说都是一般一般的一个流程而且刚刚次长也很诚实的提到了我们向目前为止世界这个这个申报这个遗产的啊世界遗迹的这部分我们是要联合国的会员吗我们是要联合国的会员那你们现在做的事情我们像今天在做的事情就好像是我们要准备"},{"start":488.517,"end":514.279,"text":"练习模拟考好像叫什么都把它准备很好但是对不起我们还是没有办法真正的拿到报考资格我们没有办法拿到报考资格我们一直在模拟考我们没有报考资格因为我们不是联合国的会员所以我们目前的整个世界遗产我们的联系的窗口我们到底如何这个是我们未来最终的目的那我就是针对今天这样的一个题目我请问次长你认为申请世界遗产的成功率有多大"},{"start":516.807,"end":532.695,"text":"當然你剛剛講了委員很清楚知道我們要是申請適宜的最主要都是需要有會員國聯合國的會員國或者是締約所以我們會不會要把我們的目標稍微能夠既然我們都已經知道這個現實的環境我們知道我們國境的處境那我們今天"},{"start":533.215,"end":542.886,"text":"把一個名稱叫做世界台灣世界一起來成立點的保存跟推動我們可以把我們的目標在三千多的資源我們看不到目標我們要把目標放在一個什麼樣大家可以更具體看到的台灣可以被看到我們覺得這個前立點我們被看到我們後續的步驟是怎麼樣"},{"start":553.138,"end":556.701,"text":"但是呢我們把當世界遺產那個是在這個地方可以當作是一個遙遠的但這個過程你告訴我Monica考了半天沒有辦法連報考資格都沒有那我們目標該怎麼樣來設定目標是在這個地方我們才知道該怎麼樣一步來推動你設立一個完全沒有報考連一個資格都沒有辦法進去那我們怎麼辦我們要不要務實一點"},{"start":574.813,"end":601.162,"text":"跟委員報告所以我們採取的策略就是要辦幾國際論壇跟國際鏈接然後去參加國際組織讓這些考試委員讓這些負責考試的人他都知道我們達到那個水準了我們擁有那個潛力資格雖然我們現在沒有報考資格可是至少讓這一些所以我們永遠都是潛力資格跟WHAWHA可能還有機會因為是世界性的這個部分但是"},{"start":602.162,"end":620.77,"text":"UNESCO裡面你就不是會員所以我們一直讓國際認為我們有這個資格我們有這個資格也可以啊你都大膽的講我們就是讓大家知道我們有這個資格就把我們的部分放在資格的這個部分但是要到那個層級上面那你就在你的三千多個字裡面大膽去寫反而否則的話我們今天剛來說所有的委員都要問我們世界遺產的這個部分第一個懷疑那我們到底最終的目標是什麼如果最終目標是放在"},{"start":627.233,"end":652.642,"text":"让世界看到我们有这个资格就把它调列出来如果是世界这个资格的话那下面我们该怎么样去做可是现在连你们这个部分你们也没有写出来这对我来说是最最了剩下一分钟的时间我是会问给大家蛮多关心的问题今年金曲奖入围有没有对岸的歌手歌手的部分其实有了李荣浩了好吧那你上次的金曲奖你大陆有26个艺人获准来台今年呢"},{"start":653.626,"end":672.625,"text":"我們還是看那個入選者他有沒有提出申請如果有的話主辦單位還是會讓入圍的歌手都還是會過來嘛對不對其實問題是目前來說去年有我們今年不知道然後呢文化部今天說你還是鼓勵兩岸音樂跟影視交流嗎"},{"start":673.286,"end":689.062,"text":"文化部还是这个样子吗是的没错是这样子是不是对好那我们来看那我说实在的目前来说因为我们很多的艺人因为牵涉到一些的问题然后呢我们的陆委会的邱全正是特别提到的就说我们会依法来查处我们最后来看一下啊"},{"start":690.163,"end":708.903,"text":"到底我們比較好奇這個目前為止其實很多的藝人他們真的覺得對他們來說真的很難表不表態都會被罵好不好這個是我們現在藝人只不過好想想工作可是呢要嘛就是要被要求表態然後表也不對不表也是不對然後呢我個人覺得下面這一個"},{"start":710.594,"end":735.39,"text":"這個到底要文化部會不會打算修法對於他們藝人的言論做出法則文化部會不會對這一塊面做出法則上面的處理文化部目前對於兩岸人民的只有兩岸人民條例可以處理這件事情所以文化部不會打算針對你們的藝人來做這個部分文化部目前沒有最後一個就是我也覺得說邱學正說文化部會積極輔導藝人回來來發展你覺得他這句話如何"},{"start":738.852,"end":766.085,"text":"邱卓正这个主委已经替你们回答文化部会积极辅导艺人同台你把这个大陆这些不管是哪一位怎么样如何回台来发展你如何辅导艺人回台来发展整个的市场的取向整个市场的金额整个市场的规模所以你对于邱卓正主委讲这句话文化部的回应是什么文化部应该是会积极辅导所有的创作者文化的创作者那这些已经成名在大陆已经成名的艺人你如何辅导他回台来发展"},{"start":767.971,"end":794.16,"text":"這還是由藝人她自己的評斷跟你的文化部要積極輔導啊我們如果他們想要回台發展的時候你可以幫他們找到更好的市場嗎我們還是要把整體的環境給做好所以你們會做這件事提出你們可以給台灣更友善的一個所謂的表演商業市場各方面你們文化部都會做這些這是文化部應該做的努力讓所有的文化創作者都能夠有很好的發展機會當然是"},{"start":795.06,"end":818.894,"text":"但是我觉得以邱主委讲这句话文化部积极辅导下一次我们就来问你们如何让这些已经在大陆成名的这些艺人在因为局势上面让他们真的是表态很困难他们愿意回来的时候你们的辅导的策略到底是什么我讲的是对于已经在大陆已经是做非常多的商业市场的这些人文化部所提出的方法当然根源很有善反击我们都支持但是"},{"start":819.574,"end":832.572,"text":"还是跟世界遗产一样目标定在那个地方执行的做法如何的执行做法我觉得这才是我们应该在这边彻底检讨的好不好好 接到 谢谢好 谢谢克之恩委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":116,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時17分）好，謝謝召委。請李次長。"],["主席：好，有請李次長。"],["柯委員志恩：次長好。今天為什麼部長不出席？有比這個備詢更重要的事情嗎？還是他認為這個議題不是太重要，所以請次長出來就可以了？"],["李次長靜慧：這我不清楚，我一開始接到的訊息就是由我來出席，當然文資的業務是由我督導的。"],["柯委員志恩：如果這個議題非常重要的話，還是應該請部長親自出席。","我們來看一下書面報告，你們在92年開始推動臺灣世界遺產計畫，98年就選出了17處的潛力點，在99年的時候又把1處變成2處、總共18處，之後又過了15年，感覺起來好像都在原地踏步，沒有什麼進展，更不要說是突破喔！說實在，我們要申報世界遺產必須要做足功課。依據申遺的指標是要提出「文本撰擬」，在18處潛力點當中「文本撰擬」的進度目前已完成11個，還有7處沒有完成，這樣的進度次長滿意嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：當然覺得有點可惜啦！希望還是……因為現在這7處主要都是內政部掌管的國家公園，我們還在努力。"],["柯委員志恩：所以顯然還是有很大的改進空間，不是太滿意，但可以接受嘛！但是說實在，今天看了你們10頁的報告，字數三千多一點點，最重要的是我看不到預期的目標、執行的策略及法制面要怎麼樣研修？跨部會又是如何？如何有效管理？我們推動了22年，目前為止到底有沒有評估跟檢討？困難在哪裡？要怎麼解決？這才是今天最大的重點，我們希望把這些潛力點完全發揚光大，但是你們到底做了什麼？22年來你們做了什麼？問一個比較務實的問題，世界遺產潛力點的業務是歸哪一科負責？"],["李次長靜慧：我們文資局的國際交流科。"],["柯委員志恩：好，用於遺產潛力點的一年預算是多少？你們應該知道預算多少吧！"],["李次長靜慧：大概5,000萬元上下。"],["柯委員志恩：不會吧！"],["李次長靜慧：就是補助給地方縣市辦理。"],["柯委員志恩：我們來核對一下我這邊的資料，要弄清楚，平均每一年1,500萬到2,000萬元，一個點補助大概是150萬到200萬元，這應該才是正確的數字喔！臺灣世界遺產推動委員會多久開會一次？"],["李次長靜慧：我們大概一年會開2次的會議。"],["柯委員志恩：請問文化部官員出席的層級？"],["李次長靜慧：部長。"],["柯委員志恩：部長一年有開到1到2次會嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：小野部長上任之後的兩次會議都是由他親自主持。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我們來看一下，你說1月就開始有第六屆的臺灣世界遺產推動委員會，你們開會就決定針對潛力點，特別是我們今天的主軸，有關「阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀」，你們說要跟相關的民間團體合作推廣，請問次長要跟哪一個民間團體合作？哪一個民間團體？顯然你們對這個業務都不是太熟。"],["李次長靜慧：阿里山文化協會。抱歉，因為這個案子比較新。"],["柯委員志恩：所以是跟阿里山文化協會，我不曉得你知不知道致力推廣阿里山世界遺產的嘉義竹崎高中，已經努力了10年了，請問文化部給這些年輕人什麼樣的鼓勵或什麼樣的支持及支援？"],["李次長靜慧：我們每一年都會支持竹崎高中的這個青年大使團體的預算。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你們給予經費，給予非常多。"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我們來看一下世界遺產推動委員會所做的決議，以本席的立場來看，其實滿單薄的，我看不出到底要怎麼樣。說實在科長很認真，當他們以一個科去對國外推展阿里山林業這個潛力點，我覺得對他來說真的是太沉重。老實說，從民國92年、就是2003年，文建會已經把阿里山鐵道及林場列為輔導重點，準備向全世界推廣，22年之後，文建會已經變成文化部了，你們有什麼具體的成果跟具體的績效嗎？而且我跟次長說，你們說要跟大家去開籌備國際論壇等等的會議，說實在滿空泛的，你們要如何跨部會？主政的機關寫的是農業部林業署、嘉義縣政府及嘉義市市政府，還要不要再找交通部觀光署？國際聯繫要不要找外交部？鐵道是位於阿里山國家公園內，要不要找內政部國家公園署？工作會議有沒有找這些機關？"],["李次長靜慧：有，外交部、內政部、交通部都是我們推動委員會的成員。"],["柯委員志恩：都有找是不是？好，到時候把這些資料提供給本席。"],["李次長靜慧：好。"],["柯委員志恩：而且還有很重要的，108年也就是2019年7月，你們文資局以「阿里山林業暨鐵道文化景觀」把阿里山林業鐵路登錄為第一個國家級的重要文化景觀，對不起，注意！你們只有登錄，文化部除了登錄還能做什麼？為什麼我會要提到這個部分？因為目前來說，這是一個很重要國寶級的文化資產，文化部只能說一下、登錄一下及宣傳一下，但你們有沒有管理的權限？你們光是要整合這麼多的單位，行政程序也非常的冗長，很重要的一點是世界遺產的潛力點，有沒有法律依據？法律依據有沒有？"],["李次長靜慧：目前就是剛剛講的登錄及……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有。22年來你們沒有修過任何一條法，只有一個要點。今天召委排了一個這麼重要的議題，我們來反觀，22年來沒有法源，只有一個要點。你告訴我，22年來我們有很在乎世界文化遺產，經過這樣的盤點後把它們發揚光大嗎？我們光是這麼樣的一個具體，沒有法源，只有一個要點，「22年」，實在的以法制層面來說，規範不足、經費不足，政府要設多少人力，你們才能夠讓阿里山林業跟鐵道永續經營？我們要保存，但是林業署要花多少經費才可以讓整個養護、整個車輛維持？農業部一個署的人力、物力、專業能力有沒有辦法？如果像你們報告裡面所提到的，你們條列這麼多的工作事項，請問文化部有辦法接手或是主導嗎？以這個方案來說，文化部可以主導接手嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：文化部跟林業署都有一直維持非常密切的合作關係。"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴你很現實的問題，阿里山鐵路基本的維修費用每年平均要6,000萬元，如果不幸遇到颱風或是其他因素導致中斷，還要額外的經費，而且阿里山談了十多年的民營化都很難實現。如果文化部承擔不起的話，我告訴你，5年、10年一樣在原地踏步。我們是要找出解方，這個報告三千字多一點點，沒有解方也沒有預期的目標，所以你們要以阿里山的鐵道，絕對支持，但是你們寫這份報告，我看不出任何的前瞻性，而且你們還要砸更多的錢。","文化部如果這樣的話，你們說把經費用於舉辦國際會議，2023年及2024年一場國際會議要花費350萬元，然後今年編330萬元，3年加起來一千多萬元，績效、成果到底是如何？22年來，從過去文建會到現在文化部，3年花了一千多萬，到底你們對於世界遺產潛力點的績效跟成果是如何，我們還是要問嘛，對不對？這績效成果到底是如何？我真的沒有看到，你們剛剛所講的，對我來說都是一般的流程，而且剛剛次長也很誠實地提到了，我們現在目前為止，申報遺產、世界遺跡這部分，我們必須是聯合國的會員。你們現在做的事情、今天在做的事情，就好像要準備練習模擬考，什麼都把它準備得很好，但是對不起，我們還是沒辦法真正地拿到報考資格，我們一直在模擬考，可是我們沒有報考資格，因為我們不是聯合國的會員。","所以目前整個世界遺產的聯繫窗口到底如何？這個是我們未來的最終目的，針對今天這樣的一個題目，我請問次長，你認為申請世界遺產的成功率有多大？"],["李次長靜慧：您剛剛講的，委員很清楚知道我們申請世遺，最主要都需要有聯合國會員國或是締約的組織……"],["柯委員志恩：所以我們會不會把目標稍微能夠……既然我們都已經知道現實環境、我們的國際處境，今天名稱叫做「臺灣世界遺產潛力點」的保存跟推動，這三千多個字裡面我們看不到目標，我們要把目標放在大家可以更具體看到的，讓臺灣可以被看到。","這個潛力點被看到的後續步驟是怎麼樣？我們把世界遺產放在這個地方，可以當作是遙遠的目標，但是這個過程，你告訴我，模擬考考了半天，結果沒有辦法，連報考資格都沒有，我們的目標該怎麼樣設定？目標設置在這個地方，我們才知道該怎麼樣一步步推動，你設立一個完全沒有辦法報考、連個資格都沒有辦法進去的，怎麼辦？要不要務實一點？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，所以我們採取的策略就是辦理國際論壇跟國際鏈結，然後去參加國際組織……"],["柯委員志恩：就跟WH……"],["李次長靜慧：讓這些考試委員、讓這些負責考試的人都知道我們達到水準了，我們擁有潛力資格……"],["柯委員志恩：然後呢？"],["李次長靜慧：雖然我們現在沒有報考資格，可是至少讓這些有權的……"],["柯委員志恩：所以我們永遠都是潛力資格，跟WHA……WHA可能還有機會，因為是世界性的，但是UNESCO裡面我們就不是會員，所以你說讓國際知道我們有這個資格，也可以，你就大膽地講，就是讓大家知道我們有這個資格，就把我們的重點放在「資格」這個部分，但是要到那個層級上面，你就在三千多個字裡面大膽地去寫，否則的話，今天剛來的時候，所有委員問我們世界遺產這個部分，第一個懷疑是我們到底最終目標是什麼。如果最終目標是放在讓世界看到我們有這個資格，就把它條列出來；如果具備這個資格的話，下面我們該怎麼樣去做，結果這部分你們也沒有寫出來。這對我來說是最……","剩下1分鐘，我問一下大家滿關心的問題，今年金曲獎入圍有沒有對岸歌手？"],["李次長靜慧：歌手的部分……"],["柯委員志恩：其實有啦，李榮浩，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：有兩位……"],["柯委員志恩：上次金曲獎大陸有26個藝人獲准來臺，今年呢？"],["李次長靜慧：我們還是看入選者有沒有提出申請……"],["柯委員志恩：如果有的話，主辦單位都還是會讓入圍歌手過來嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對，我們就授權給移民署處理……"],["柯委員志恩：其實問題是目前來說，去年有，今年不知道，文化部今天說還是鼓勵兩岸音樂跟影視交流，文化部還是這個樣子嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：是的，沒錯。"],["柯委員志恩：是這樣子，是不是？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["柯委員志恩：那我們來看，我說實在的，因為很多藝人牽涉到一些問題，陸委會邱垂正特別提到會依法查處。最後來看一下，我們比較好奇，目前為止其實很多藝人覺得對他們來說真的很難，表不表態都會被罵。只不過想好好工作，結果要嘛被要求表態，表不對，不表也是不對。我個人覺得下面這個……到底文化部會不會打算修法，對於藝人的言論做出罰則？文化部會不會對這塊做出罰則上的處理？"],["李次長靜慧：目前對於兩岸人民的問題，只有兩岸人民條例可以處理這件事情……"],["柯委員志恩：所以文化部不會打算針對藝人做這個部分……"],["李次長靜慧：我們就依照……我們沒有要另外……"],["柯委員志恩：所以文化部目前沒有。最後一個，邱垂正說文化部會積極輔導藝人回臺發展，你覺得他這句話如何？邱垂正主委已經替你們回答，文化部會積極輔導藝人回臺。大陸這些不管哪一位，包括如何回臺發展、如何輔導藝人回臺發展、整個市場的取向、整個市場的金額、整個市場的規模，對於邱垂正主委講的這句話，文化部的回應是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：文化部應該會積極輔導所有的創作者、文化的創作者，讓他能夠有好的發展。"],["柯委員志恩：這些在大陸已經成名的藝人如何輔導他回臺來發展？"],["李次長靜慧：這還是由藝人他自己的評斷跟……"],["柯委員志恩：你們文化部要積極輔導啊！"],["李次長靜慧：如果他們想要回臺發展……"],["柯委員志恩：你可以幫他找到更好的市場嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：我們還是要把整體環境做好，讓大家……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你們會做這件事，你們可以給臺灣更友善的表演、商業市場各方面？你們文化部會做這些？"],["李次長靜慧：這是文化部應該做的努力，讓所有文化創作者都能夠有很好的發展計畫。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是，但是我覺得以邱主委講這句話──「文化部積極輔導」，下次我們就來問你們，如何讓這些已經在大陸成名的藝人，因為局勢上面讓他們真的是表態很困難，他們願意回來的時候，你們的輔導策略到底是什麼？我講的是對於已經在大陸做非常多商業市場的這些人，文化部所提出來的方法。當然給予友善環境，我們很支持，但還是跟世界遺產一樣，目標訂在那個地方，如何執行的作法，我覺得這才是我們在這邊應該澈底檢討的，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好，接到了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員。次長請回。","接下來請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","劉書彬","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","張雅琳","范雲","林沛祥","徐富癸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","萬美玲","吳思瑤","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林月琴","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","葉元之","謝龍介","林倩綺"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長李靜慧列席，就「臺灣世界遺產潛力點推動現況，暨欲求申登世界遺產必先完善\n我國潛力點保存」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145701_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}