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謝謝主席 請部長好 有請邱部長那署長也併上來吧來 署長劉昭偉好部長好剛剛主席有聽到一些部長還有署長的回應有點替你感到擔心幾件事情 第一件事情 急診的事情"},{"start":28.651,"end":47.362,"text":"應該部長還在當委員的時候就那個時候當下部長應該還有一個記憶嘛齁就是林口長庚醫院曾經爆發出急診醫師的離職草逃離草那個時候好像是部長剛當委員的前段那個階段嘛對不對應該是頭一年部長記得是什麼時候吧"},{"start":49.845,"end":56.569,"text":"確定的年份我不確定,因為那個時候林署長跟葉的確是有相當的人事問題署長好像當時是市長,市長你記得什麼時候嗎?105年105嗎?2016,178"},{"start":71.831,"end":100.013,"text":"2016 部長就...部長有沒有當委員2017 當2016啦2016 好 那就當了嘛那所以應該你們對這事情的掌握應該非常清楚嘛但是當時林口長跟急診醫師的狀況跟現在的狀況你們有沒有比對過 雷同 不雷同一樣 不一樣差異在什麼地方人數的多寡 差很多比例 增加的N倍"},{"start":101.823,"end":127.146,"text":"有嗎當時林口長庚醫院的話會比較屬於個別醫院的問題那現在急診的問題會比較屬於全國性的問題好 但是今天發出來的聲音也是來自長庚系統的急診醫師嘛對不對沒有錯嗎不只嘛不是不是 嘉義長庚是那個神經內科神經內科那個如果是急診的話是由急診醫學會的一個同仁"},{"start":129.388,"end":142.923,"text":"是我只是希望提醒部長跟署長不要再有2017年那個狀況再發生了而且如果現在再發生之前已經特別提到過現在community又再起來然後醫療緊繃這種狀況那我真的怕"},{"start":145.997,"end":174.587,"text":"會不會有所謂的急診的醫療的崩壞的情況發生甚至有達到那種裡面一花不可收拾的這樣的一個相關因應的地步這部分可能你們要特別去小心一定要小心一定要小心真的不要在部長任內跟署長任內去發生這種事情所以我再度提出不要有急診醫師的這個集體的暴走暴走潮還是我們一花不可收拾的這樣的一個局面"},{"start":175.107,"end":191.847,"text":"的情況發生我們會努力改善好 謝謝那不敢看嘛台灣這個健保這個開辦已經從1995年到現在這個是獨步世界先進的政策同時在健保的制度下民眾的就診資料庫也是全球難得的這個醫療保庫嘛沒有錯"},{"start":193.869,"end":213.262,"text":"但現在醫學要進步就必須要有龐大的醫療資料庫當作依據醫學的技術才能持續的不斷的去演進然後在2022年這個憲法的法庭憲判制第13號的判決命令健保資料被用於原本目的以外的用途我剛剛有宣讀一次的不應內容違憲"},{"start":214.443,"end":227.662,"text":"所以不需要在判決宣告上面沒有完成修法或訂定專法來確保民眾個人資料受到保護個人資料受到保護也因此才有今天本席排審的這個全民健康保險資料管理條例的這個草案"},{"start":230.225,"end":252.087,"text":"沒有錯嘛,對不對?個人資料受到保障,個人資料受到保障,個人資料受到保障,這個很重要,所以我特別再練了三次。但今天這個法例如果可以順利的完成,去維繪,那就代表它真正的叫做個人資料,健保的個人資料可以受到完整的保護嗎?"},{"start":253.248,"end":268.144,"text":"部長可以答覆我嗎 簡單的一句話就好一定要 這是基本要做的啊 一定要做到但是過去 剛剛很多委員垂詢嘛對不對過去發生什麼事情我就不再贅述嘛那甚至於 甚至於現在很多機關都被滲透這個滲透裡面有在你的這個草案裡面做相關的防治嗎"},{"start":277.698,"end":300.509,"text":"這滲透應該是另外我們有資訊的一個保護這個也做得很周全那這一個部分你確定很周全?部長你確定可以很周全?我們已經找到全世界最厲害的我們的處長理事長處長在做全國防範處長確定是全世界最厲害的嗎?"},{"start":301.409,"end":328.897,"text":"在醫療部的部長對他這個做篩驗保證他是全世界最厲害的我相信是應該是他不一定要到全世界最厲害不過他可以做到相關預防的這些讓資料外露然後資料流失資料被吸資料被吸出的情況之下甚至也可以做到預防相關滲透的情況我就覺得他就是一個很厲害的人他不一定全世界最厲害部長可以這麼跟我保證嗎"},{"start":331.311,"end":359.305,"text":"我相信他是非常厲害的人而且到他的經驗也到WHA我們這五月的時候到達他的厲害我無意挑戰啦他的厲害我也可以敬佩也展現給全世界的很多國家來看啦但是剛剛我擔心的事情部長能答覆我嗎就我們這個處長都可以一念而解都可以相當的預防都會到位包含未修這個未訂這個法之前跟訂這個法之後我擔心的事情都不會發生能不能簡單跟我說明一下"},{"start":360.945,"end":377.532,"text":"那這樣我才能夠認證他確定是非常厲害在資訊安全這個部分齁是整體性尤其是醫院的這個醫療系統的一個保護齁這個部分你處長這邊一直在進行是會跟委員報告一下好 處長簡單就好好不好"},{"start":378.172,"end":406.738,"text":"那我知道你的厲害這個不敢就是說我們這個資訊都一直在學習第一個就是說跟委員講的就是說第一個有關於擔心這個下載大量個資被吸出的部分我們現在都有全面的施行所謂的USB還有硬碟下載的管控所以只要他在不當的時間不當的地點跟下載不當的一個資料的時候每個月都會去把這個東西排出來給各位這個所謂的主管去自打每個月都會排出來"},{"start":407.818,"end":434.657,"text":"我們沒有時間預防的相關機制存在要等到盤出來的時候我們才會發覺到是問題所在這個是指我們指公務內的人他有權限使用的人那至於第二個就是說這個資料我們事實上是在內網裡那他必須在這個所謂的規定的中心才能去做相關的工作然後他是屬於A級的機構所以這些相關的資防範我們都是定期的有去做相關的一個處理"},{"start":436.419,"end":456.398,"text":"這個出場之前有打呼過我啦就A級的防範嘛對不對那A級的防範防範嘛可以達到預防的效果嘛就是這個事件可能要發生了我們不會等到發生之後經過每個月盤整的時候才發覺到我們是在被吸出嘛會不會有這種情況發生你保證一下嘛你跟我講一下程序吧"},{"start":458.337,"end":476.816,"text":"這個就是要分兩個部分來講一個就是如果說是有對外聯的資料的時候現在都有一種叫做主動防禦的軟體主動防禦就是它偵測到這些不正常的行為的時候這個就是所謂委員講的防範那它就會主動的去試鏡然後去做隔離"},{"start":477.977,"end":499.295,"text":"那健保只要更安全他在這個內網裡面沒有對外去連的所以別人是沒有辦法任意的進來的所以在這一塊部分的話他比現在這種主動防範還要更安全因為我只有問這個時間就已經快差不多了其實坦白講我剛剛提出的問題我也希望部長跟處長再思考一下可能我的擔心應該是對的"},{"start":501.517,"end":524.817,"text":"也希望說你們在整個因應相關的其實作為除了定這個法律之外還有更積極的更有效的預防我擔心會發生的事情這樣人民百姓才會信任嘛對不對也才會相信衛福部要展現出來的相關的一些政策的推行因為我為什麼要講這個啦你看啦我們是要跟實驗室來跑8月12日就完成三讀"},{"start":525.718,"end":552.693,"text":"那不願意這個自己的健保資料被作為研究用途的民眾他可以有法規的依循申請出這個退出權嘛對不對但是呢但是部長你看一下這個報導這個聯絡報報導我們這個社保社代師長講說初步書採書面讓民眾申請退出未來會考量這個變名作業會研究提供上網申請這個未來是指什麼時候22世紀"},{"start":555.987,"end":584.333,"text":"民國兩百年市長當然第一階段我們還是比較謹慎啦剛開始做的時候謹慎然後再逐步再用到其他更方便的方式啦不是啦 署長這講這個用笑嘛你只要講一個未來 你的未來什麼時候嘛未來是十年後一年後我們就再檢討一年後你就講一年內嘛你講一年後也怪怪一年後也算二十二世紀啊"},{"start":585.458,"end":607.535,"text":"一年後也是十年後啊我們也是電腦王國咧然後AI的世代了好 我們是 劍保主動還有劍保快易通的APP了啊怎麼這個書面改為線上的需要在未來你未來不一定就成為部長了啊是不是要等到你當部長的時候才處理我不是在虧你啦"},{"start":609.167,"end":629.342,"text":"因為你講這個未來我就覺得讓我有一點擔心說連這個書面改為線上的申請都會有個未來而且不曉得未來什麼時候那你如果去保障民眾的這些大量的這些健保相關的一些資料我會擔心嘛我本來要先提出來嘛所以我希望這個可能要講清楚啦我們盡快一年內可以吧"},{"start":632.764,"end":633.725,"text":"八月十二 八月十二後"},{"start":642.711,"end":670.591,"text":"會有大量民眾要來提出這個退出嗎?也不一定嘛對不對然後反而社會一部應該是告訴民眾自己的健保資料作為研究的用途是有什麼樣的貢獻有什麼樣的這個益處嘛例如像以前COVID-19的時候疫情的防患、疫苗、健保資料也絕對提供非常重要的數據支持嘛所以不會太多人去提出行情嘛但是我們記得說未來未來才能提出最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最"},{"start":671.551,"end":697.403,"text":"而且我們利用這個健保資料數據台灣在國際期間已經發表了9000多筆的論文對台灣的醫學領域的發展是絕對有關鍵性的影響所以衛福部應該把這些資訊告訴民眾讓民眾知道自己資料除了在健保庫很安全而且還可以作為疾病的預防治療做出貢獻我想民眾還是會相信衛福部所以今天部長講說我們聘了一個世界最厲害的資訊專家"},{"start":700.006,"end":719.29,"text":"這個當然有強化這個民眾對衛部的信任嘛對不對但是如果說一個線上的申請你需要你講的沒有一個缺缺時間那民眾就會覺得怪怪的嘛那另外一個我到現在也沒有看到你們有什麼積極作為114年度的沒宣會用我們一倍360%應該剩下1000多嘛1700左右嘛 對吧"},{"start":724.323,"end":736.613,"text":"所以你們的媒體義務辦理應該是非常吃力嘛部長署長可能要展智慧吧因為這個健保資料庫對疾病的預防還有治療是至關重要嘛"},{"start":738.179,"end":754.21,"text":"所以你先要告訴我有多少齋讓全民知道我想我們現在不只包括健保是包括整個所有的衛生防疫各方面的資訊都需要好 請署長回去來 請署長回去部長最後一個問題謝謝主席的體諒"},{"start":758.188,"end":783.039,"text":"周四有安排一個議程就是要到北市聯醫 考察這個病人自處施行的狀況以及這個近期傳染病疫情的防治作為這一次的疫情好像有點死灰復燃因為那天CDC的書長在這邊打呼FDA的書長在這邊打呼相關的數據六月底七月初一個禮拜就將近有全台二十萬人確診六月初到七月底應該是一七一如果到八月初可能一百八十萬我講這個數據應該"},{"start":784.659,"end":810.335,"text":"應該目前為止都是這個樣子對不對 這個預估沒有落差現在看起來沒有比這個高啦好 相關的這個預防的這個疫情的整備都已經到位了嘛都已經到位嘛 這上上禮拜裡面都有講過但是很奇怪勒 我覺得奇怪這個到目前為止立法院就講我們立法院 已經喔要延會到7月31號我們看到已經很多的助理都確診了"},{"start":811.704,"end":827.017,"text":"而且交叉感染,有掌握嗎?因為像綠碗業這種上千流動的場域,我有沒有看到你們提高任何防疫的積極作為?沒有啊,以前都還會噴一噴啊,都會噴一噴啊。"},{"start":829.839,"end":843.235,"text":"現在通通沒有所以你跟全國的百姓講說令月底七月初令月初到七月底台灣的疫情會一直上來喔我們相關事情都準備好了喔但是相關的預防的積極作為通通沒有"},{"start":844.304,"end":872.142,"text":"所以那一天在上個禮拜我才會跟部長面前跟CDC的署長要求說你如何降低確診的人數一個星期內提供給委員會來做相關的一些參考但是這個一個禮拜已經過了也沒有看到這其一嘛那其二就以本院本院來講也沒有看到有相關的機制要如何降低COVID-19確診的這樣的一個作為沒看到這邊都沒有了你全國怎麼做"},{"start":874.437,"end":890.903,"text":"全國怎麼做也沒有所以你們把相關的防疫的物資準備好了疫苗準備好了口罩準備好了消毒水準備好了這個事情就到此結束了這樣就可以降低原有你們預估的確診人數是這樣嗎"},{"start":892.842,"end":901.312,"text":"如果是這樣我會有意見但是部長你就要公開答覆說那這樣就有搞了所以我們也不用煩惱醫療崩壞我們也不用怕急診室的醫師又有離職潮我們也不用怕這個神經相關科技的這些醫師他們有接受到什麼樣的這樣的一個狀況都不用擔心是這樣嗎"},{"start":913.424,"end":932.329,"text":"包委員我們CDC一直在注意國內外疫情的監測跟分析它有注意我們有伙覺啦WHO現在還是把它定於常規監測的一個層次那我們當然尤其在端午節之前包括行政院長也都希望大家能夠我們有先導能夠"},{"start":934.33,"end":956.423,"text":"那個落實個人的衛生自主戴口罩那當然還很重要要盡量你有確定在宣導或想透過什麼方式宣導我們有做圖卡而且每一次在我們的譬如說羅一金副組長在接受訪問的時候每一次一定或開記者會的時候一定有先一定有宣導大家能夠在人口用"},{"start":957.083,"end":973.768,"text":"密集的地方能夠戴口罩有比較自主性那等一下就請部長要求幕僚把相關的宣導都積極做在這一星期就好了提供給委員會做參考嘛好的沒問題我提醒部長一下啦應該是沒有啦然後我也請部長看一則新聞2020年台灣成為亞洲首個通過公衛法的國家2021年開始招考第一屆公衛師迄今已經五屆了但是通過的這些考試的公衛師"},{"start":986.272,"end":1009.358,"text":"至今沒有人進入到公務體系這個是相關的一些報導給部長做參考這種情況還是令人回憶所思國家通過了公衛司法在疫情期間我們確認到公衛司的重要性但是到目前沒有任何公衛司在公務體系裡面協助疫情的管控我們對在美國政府當時公部門引進的公務人才光是領導起的就要求到五千人"},{"start":1010.643,"end":1032.572,"text":"預算至少變了快20億美金但是我們這個法通過6年了到現在是這種成果是不曉得有沒有什麼樣的一個思考公共衛生人才是非常重要的啦我們會那個未來會盡量來考慮把他們的專能讓這些有專長的人來發揮那其實我們在衛福部的體系裡面"},{"start":1033.712,"end":1056.618,"text":"背景是公共衛生的可以說是非常的多是沒有錯我當然知道很多那未來是不是有執照的我們應該給他更多的機會來發揮所長我想這個是未來應該要做的方向部長一樣還是回答我未來那未來是22世紀還是部長變院長了所以我覺得有時候有些事情我們還是講一個時間點會比較正確好不好"},{"start":1059.699,"end":1075.844,"text":"如果覺得這個方向是正確的讓公衛師可以進到公務體系裡面來協助降低相關的這種流行性的這些狀況扮演著非常重要的角色我也請講美國的狀況來給部長做參考我們是不是有這個機會嘛有沒有這個機會因為這個法已經通過六年了"},{"start":1081.681,"end":1094.151,"text":"所以我的意思就是增加這方面的現在是這樣子因為如果說不是我的意思啦就是你覺得拼國企來因為公衛師可以進到公衛體系來做相關的因為這些疫情的防治因為公衛師"},{"start":1096.813,"end":1117.05,"text":"現在通過的是比較屬於專業的啦不是公務員嘛如果是公務員的那當然就是我沒有說他一定變成公務員我是說公務衛師進到公務體系來協助相關的疫情的防範那沒問題我們當然是盡量的只要有機會我們會盡量聘請有公衛背景的尤其是特別有這樣的一個專業執照的"},{"start":1118.351,"end":1131.701,"text":"好 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{"start":1938.291,"end":1948.465,"text":"八委會初席委員失任 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1949.505,"end":1969.421,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十五次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年六月四日星期三九十二分至十二時五十一分地點群憲樓八零一會議室出席委員陳委員昭之等十五人列席委員林委員德夫等十一人列席官員勞動部部長洪生翰等相關人員"},{"start":1970.402,"end":1982.613,"text":"主席蘇躁及委員清泉報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請勞動部部長就勞工退休金制度改革含勞保勞退執行現況進行專題報告並被質詢本日會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等16人提出質詢"},{"start":1989.159,"end":2010.871,"text":"均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆委員林德福及圖權及所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定宣讀完畢好謝謝請委員會上市議事部有錯誤或疑慮之處"},{"start":2013.53,"end":2024.825,"text":"如果沒有,那我們依次的確定。好,本日會議議程為,行政院函請審議,委員營業請等21人,擬拒絕名健康保險資料管理條例查案等2案。好,請。可以啊,可以。"},{"start":2034.656,"end":2050.86,"text":"今天衛環委員會安排這個全民健保資料管理條例我必須要請召委三司也要請所有衛環的委員支持將本條例退回行政院在2022年憲法法庭他作出憲判第3號的判決之後我們看到今年行政院分別提出個人資料保護法的修正草案還有個人資料保護委員會的組織法草案今天我們排審的全民健保"},{"start":2058.663,"end":2071.591,"text":"這個資料管理這個草例這三個都有一個非常重要的議題要處理就是個人資料的利用跟管理根據大法官的判決必須要獨立監督機關獨立監督機關去監督公務機關對個人的資料的這個使用處理對外傳輸以及對外利用等等事項而個人資料保護委員會就是這個獨立"},{"start":2080.596,"end":2086.818,"text":"監督機關但這個組織法都還沒有立法完成啊那我們委員會今天就要急著處理這個健保資料庫條例嗎再來整個健保資料把個人資料保護委員會這樣的一個獨立機關都架空了他只是隸屬在衛福部裡面的一個保護資料這個資議會健保資料這樣有獨立性嗎"},{"start":2102.263,"end":2110.411,"text":"事實上是完全沒有這是一個被外部部所控制的一個資議會所以沒有任何獨立性可言所以今天台灣有很多問題包括憲法判決的當中認為很重要對外傳輸對外提供利用的主體目的要件範圍"},{"start":2116.917,"end":2138.01,"text":"等等方式都不在這個查案裡面有加以處理我不知道衛福部是沒有看懂或是沒注意還是要迴避這個大法官的判決意旨但無論如何今天這個法案應該要停下來退回請衛福部重新提出核心的版本否則我們如果按照衛福部的版本去審議三讀恐怕又是一個違憲的法律誕生好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員的程序花言那我想"},{"start":2146.345,"end":2163.827,"text":"我講這一個是衛福委員會,然後是我排的啦,那我排的公告的議程一定是在上個禮拜會公告也會寄出給各個辦公室嘛那基本上如果當時焦志文有意見,那個時候是可以提醒我嘛,也可以打電話跟我講"},{"start":2164.808,"end":2168.394,"text":"那畢竟已經當時沒有聽到有這樣的聲音啦有這樣的意見那現在當然 蔣志文表示意見我也表示尊重不過這個我想應該是這個樣子啦是在2022年憲法法庭憲判制"},{"start":2180.851,"end":2205.356,"text":"第13號的判決他主要是認定健保資料被用於原本目的以外的用途好那部分內容有違憲所以衛護部需在判決宣告三年內完成修法或訂定專法來確保這個民眾個人資料受到保障這個部分就是趙志遠特別擔心的部分所以現在法庭這樣判決"},{"start":2206.141,"end":2235.343,"text":"也符合張志偉剛剛的這樣的一個疑慮所以今天才會有排審這個全民健康保險資料管理條例的草案的一個相關修正那最主要是因為這樣我們必須要跟時間賽跑在8月12日前要完成法案的刪讀讓不願意自己健保資料被作為這個研究用途的民眾可以有法規依循來申請這個退出權等等等"},{"start":2236.364,"end":2250.74,"text":"我的補充在這邊我不曉得趙志偉能不能接受認同那我再請是不是請這個衛部也來做一個簡單的說明像這個事情成為趙志偉的單右部分"},{"start":2257.281,"end":2280.158,"text":"我想謝謝昭智委員的指教,還有昭緯也提出了我們這次立法的一個緣由我想我們這個是為了憲判的一個後續來做,為了落實憲法跟對人民"},{"start":2281.585,"end":2296.337,"text":"資訊領事權的保護且為符合法律保障者所以才擬住這樣的一個草案經過了大家很多很多的討論那趙志偉的擔心是不是那個時事長可以跟人報告"},{"start":2296.897,"end":2312.648,"text":"那麼至於說在憲判裡面另外有一個獨立的監理機關那個是由行政院另外再處理那我們今天只先針對這個全民健康保險資料在這個憲判裡面的另外兩個點"},{"start":2313.649,"end":2335.301,"text":"一個就是退出權的行使以及法律明確授權先就處理那麼也可以讓所有的學術界需要使用的健保資料能夠合法的合規的使用那也讓民眾可以盡快的有依據來做出退出權的行使"},{"start":2339.5,"end":2365.156,"text":"那個是另外一個在行政院層級的獨立機關,那個不可能由衛福部來處理一個獨立機關他就是因為很急,剛剛張偉也特別提到因為現判在8月12號之後那麼在這個之前,要這個主管機關要完成這個法律的授權跟退出權的行使的一些法律依據"},{"start":2371.216,"end":2393.745,"text":"委員我補充我們送出來的27條的條文裡頭第4條跟第5條就是在講我們要設一個自議會那個是我們知道是是是按那委員所提的獨立性那個是審判主文2裡面所提到的要針對整體的資料去做那那塊是在行政院各自委員會籌備處那邊會去做處理嘿"},{"start":2403.386,"end":2415.472,"text":"因為今天質詢是可以禁止,但是今天的實質審查會有很大的問題好,我想我們行政院各部門分口進行,各自完成各自的一個責任的話,我想就會把這件事情做得完美,就會水到七成了已經通過了什麼上面沒有下面如何?你是對大原則沒有遵守?憲法判決當時的主要的意志就是在這個獨立性嗎?"},{"start":2427.307,"end":2445.972,"text":"這個法律,剛剛時事長也有提的,這個管理條例其實就是很有獨立性來管理沒有沒有,你們要訂這個法,你們自己來監督,那叫獨立性嗎?這個是大家來監督啦"},{"start":2449.212,"end":2471.156,"text":"我們的一個製衣會的組成也非常的完整,有各界的代表絕對是可以代表社會的聲音,不管是研究者、學術者當然衛福部要來推,我們衛福部有很多這樣在審議獨立監督機構,這是法官示現的時候當時最重要的一點"},{"start":2484.631,"end":2485.992,"text":"現在在進行程序案中"},{"start":2502.126,"end":2523.348,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛詹事委員提出一個非常重要的問題就是獨立審查機制的要求不過依照憲判制他們的判斷需要的是成立一個相關的我們稱為獨立監督的機制他不是說要求要成立一個獨立"},{"start":2524.629,"end":2545.802,"text":"監督的機關我想這個差別非常非常的大我想在一個部裡面在成立一個機關應該是在法制上或是在體制上是有它的問題那如果它要求是要獨立監督的機制那我們應該在法條裡面如何能夠讓這樣的精神跟這樣的要求可以來落實"},{"start":2546.562,"end":2567.469,"text":"那等一下本席也會針對這個部分來跟大家一起討論所以這部分我想也麻煩這個昭芝委員這邊也先了解一下我們的大法官到底是用什麼樣的要求來讓這部法律未來更符合民眾的期待以上好 謝謝王委員的這樣的一個說明來誰"},{"start":2574.915,"end":2578.237,"text":"好來請這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處法制事務組的組長李玉佳組長來做一個說明好不好"},{"start":2588.052,"end":2616.952,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那我先說明一下就是說因為其實剛剛委員有提到這個憲判13他其實在主文2裡面有提到就是欠缺獨立個人資料保護的獨立監督機制然後有違憲之餘那這個部分其實就是我們現在行政院各自籌備處要去籌設一個個人資料保護委員會那目前這個組織法是已經有經過這個司法法制委員會跟經濟委員會聯席審查已經出委員會了"},{"start":2617.872,"end":2638.566,"text":"那在就主文三的部分他這邊是提到說就個人健保資料要由這個衛福部以資料部儲存處理對外傳輸及對外提供利用的主體目的要件範圍等等的這些重要事項要依專法來做一個規範才符合法律保有原則那這裡面有提到這個所謂"},{"start":2640.266,"end":2666.912,"text":"組織上及程序上的監督防護機制那這個部分在主文三它是屬於一個在衛福部的這個健保資料庫的一個這個專法裡面的一個組織上程序上的監督防護機制也就是我們現在這個條例的第四條草案第四條所規定的資議會它其實是在現判的這個主文三並沒有要求這個獨立性這個獨立性是在主文二"},{"start":2667.472,"end":2690.895,"text":"主文二他這邊是要求一個整體性的各自的獨立監督機制那也就是我們現在未來要成立的這個各自保護委員會以上說明就是現在就是已經在審議中那已經出委員會已經出委員會了嘛已經出司法法治委員會了"},{"start":2696.013,"end":2719.84,"text":"那應該這樣說明 趙志偉應該能夠諒解啦好不好因為畢竟剛剛這個組長特別提到在司法法治委員會已經都主要你擔心的這個法案的進度都已經出了委會那我們這邊進行詢答然後委會做這個處理嘛那處理還是要聆聽所有委員的意見也不如說在處理就一定今天會一定有辦法處理完成這個總共是27條好不好"},{"start":2724.381,"end":2747.005,"text":"然後我也事先把議程有傳,我也不是今天熊熊變更議程的啦好不好,請趙主席能夠點亮前面好,好,謝謝,謝謝好,各位請回好不好,謝謝,好那我們就會持續進行齁現在來介紹在場的委員及列席官員那第一位是陳昭慈陳委員好,那第二位是林月琦林委員"},{"start":2753.51,"end":2764.434,"text":"第三位是我們王振旭 王委員第四位是黃秀芬 黃委員黃秀芳 黃委員 抱歉 抱歉 黃秀芳 黃委員這個陳委員力量很大我以為是兩個不曉得誰先進來蘇清璇 蘇昭惟"},{"start":2775.373,"end":2791.159,"text":"好謝謝好現在列席的官員好衛務部我們邱大遠邱部長好這個因為有有一些時間的抵動了所以其他衛務部相關的這個官員我就不再介紹然後這個"},{"start":2792.929,"end":2814.064,"text":"呃個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組組長林玉佳林組長謝謝數位發展部法治處專門委員陳明宏好謝謝法務部參事汪蘭君謝謝好啊現在請提案人林蔚請林蔚請委員來說明提案料子請"},{"start":2825.286,"end":2844.498,"text":"本席針對全民健康保險資料使用專法立法提出如下意見跟重點敬請各位委員公見全民健康保險署為執行健保業務依健保法收集儲存大量個人的健康資料"},{"start":2845.248,"end":2864.677,"text":"此等資料關乎人民的隱私依法應受到高度的保護為近年因公務或學術研究需求保險人也提供了資料於外部單位使用重金去識別處理 仍有交叉比對重識別的風險如果僅靠行政命令跟內部規範以難保障資訊的隱私權"},{"start":2874.386,"end":2895.426,"text":"宪法法庭于110年宪判第13号判决明确指出为保障宪法第22条的资讯隐私权并符合第23条的法律保留原则健保资料的收集处理传输跟利用需有法律明文规定包括储存使用目的"},{"start":2895.888,"end":2910.468,"text":"申請者資格資料範圍提供方式跟監督機制跟被保險的權利等皆應以專法來規範基於此本期提出立法的一些重點第一個 明訂特定目的外利用限於"},{"start":2910.968,"end":2939.909,"text":"非營利使用不得將全民繳費所累積資料轉為私人牟利第二禁止外國中國大陸香港澳門實體直接或間接取得資料防止外泄跟國安風險第三強化當事人的知情跟事前同意跟隨時退出權不得與繁瑣的程序架空人民資訊自主權第四個建立資料價值回饋機制申請者若自申請日"},{"start":2941.189,"end":2965.798,"text":"起第15年內獲利的話應提撥一定比例作為回饋第五重罰販售資料盈利使用或隱匿於境外及中澳中港澳地區設立機構者展現法治決心所以本席認為唯有專法的立法才能夠平和學術研究跟人民基本基本權的保障重建社會信任守住資料自主權謝謝"},{"start":2968.769,"end":2974.001,"text":"好 謝謝林委員的提案說明那接下來我們就請部長來做相關的說明好 謝謝"},{"start":2981.4,"end":3004.63,"text":"主席、各位委員先生、女士先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十六次全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸之就行政院函請審議全民健康保險資料管理條例草案及委員林烈勤等二十一人擬計全民健康保險資料管理條例草案二案"},{"start":3005.31,"end":3025.65,"text":"提出本部意見 敬請各位委員不吝會議指教一 行政院提案版本 因111年宪判制第13號判決就個人健保資料得由健保署以資料庫儲存處理對外傳輸及對外提供利用之主體目的要件"},{"start":3026.491,"end":3039.385,"text":"換取及方式及相關組織上及程序上之監督防護機制等重要事項以及當事人當事人得請求停止利用例外不許不許停止利用之相關規定"},{"start":3040.307,"end":3068.94,"text":"自判決宣誓制度期三年內修正健保法及其他相關法例或制定專法明定之為落實憲法對人民資訊隱私權之保障且為符合法律保留原則擬計全民健康保險資料管理條例草案共27條就健保資料特定目的外是利用與管理規範提供及使用健保資料應遵循法定要件"},{"start":3069.6,"end":3088.986,"text":"正當程序及監督防護機制等事項以及當事人都請求停止利用之相關規定確保個人健保資料經依法定程序處理後可兼顧研究應用個人資訊隱私及自主權益重點包括依立法目的為規範"},{"start":3090.626,"end":3118.468,"text":"健保資料以特定目的之外利用及管理以保障人民知識理事權並提升醫療品質、公共衛生、社會福利促進協助研究發展及提供政府機關執行法定職務增進全民健康福祉二、建立組織上及城市上之監督防護機制確保健保資料特定目的外利用之安全性與合理性包括組成健保資料"},{"start":3119.608,"end":3128.213,"text":"執意會完善健保資料等相關資料庫管理保險人將健保資料傳輸於主管機關等相關規定"},{"start":3129.777,"end":3156.976,"text":"並明確規範申請目的申請者資格申請方式審查成績及申請者對與審核結果不符之救濟程序以及申請者經核准利用後製執行方式安全作業環境及規範並訂明申請者執行健保資料所得利用結果之規範以所得結果產生產業利益者智慧會機制三 原定退出權機制"},{"start":3158.357,"end":3177.829,"text":"定名請求停止利用及例外不喜停止利用主體、室友、程序及停止之效力4.違反本條例相關規定是罰則2.執救委員林業勤等21人提案版本與原版差異本部說明"},{"start":3178.871,"end":3208.311,"text":"一 草案第八條及第九條就申請目的及申請者資格增內禁止營利使用非為中華民國境內登記設立之大學法人機構不得申請等規定一致應本條例為國內法本實上為規範境內之機關構學校等並有規範申請者不得為特定目的外利用企劃以外之利用且定有法則建議維持院版"},{"start":3210.192,"end":3233.752,"text":"2.草案第10條及第14條針類事前同意規定一解案憲法主文4.須要求須定名退出權機制,會以當事人事後控制權判定理由第69章提及個資法第6條第1項但書第4款規定,其合憲性經憲法法庭肯認"},{"start":3234.793,"end":3263.325,"text":"又第70條產名該規定會以當事人同意為前提故應為個資法第3條之特別規定應優先適用並會要求現有之健保資料庫其健保資料特定目的外利用須經當事人事前同意若特定目的外利用健保資料應及時告知當事人該資料之使用方式、目的、期間等"},{"start":3264.695,"end":3289.444,"text":"實務上每年約300多件申請案主案通知可能會造成當事人不堪其勞建議維持原版3.草案第15條定明申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所得結果產生產業利益者其利益回饋法定期限自申請日起15年內一截考量實務上如藥品研發、檢驗技術開發等相當費時"},{"start":3292.256,"end":3294.589,"text":"其衍生產業利益時程不易服務點"},{"start":3295.549,"end":3321.646,"text":"且可於涉嫌犯法嚴厲 建議維持現版結語 健保資料涵蓋全民健康資訊因應人口老化、慢性病人口攀升以及醫療財政負擔等其資料利用為增進公共利益所必要對政策制定與醫藥發展集聚助益 攸關全民健康福祉本條例 條案系一宪判意旨制定"},{"start":3322.646,"end":3343.073,"text":"將在保障個人資訊、隱私權及自治權的基礎上完善法律規範推動健保資料之合理利用懇請大院予以支持進速通過本條例立法本部呈大院各委員資質教育監督在此靜置謝陳並請各位委員繼續予以支持以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3348.253,"end":3370.408,"text":"好 謝謝邱部長報告那有關本次會議各項隨便資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始做詢問 做以下宣告本會議委員宣達時間6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記 委員如果有隨便質詢 請一三位請提出 一舉不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘 本會不處理臨時提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭之委員來做詢問"},{"start":3375.441,"end":3379.27,"text":"我先請食藥署江署長謝謝主席好請江署長"},{"start":3387.964,"end":3416.586,"text":"好 署長早COVID快篩的證照是你在管理的那羅一鈞副署長對這個媒體表示部分醫事藥師認為國內對於開篩效期的建立比較嚴格生產後一年半到兩年就被界定為介效日期但是像美國等國家都有展延的效期甚至到兩三年所以如果國內快篩已經過期但在半年到一年當中其可信度還是可以參考的我想請教江署長你對羅副署長這段發言的評論是支持還是不支持"},{"start":3417.307,"end":3439.081,"text":"就請你不要講他就支持還不支持換委員那個義軍他很認真講他說官方很難請說要快篩過期講官方應該是講食藥署食藥署針對所有的醫療器材使用你支持他這個說法嗎就是他覺得再過半年到一年可以嗎醫療器材的使用都有他使用期限這是第一個要跟委員報告 當然是這樣子"},{"start":3440.401,"end":3450.025,"text":"第二個部分其實特別要去做說明的地方是因為缺效這件事情大概都有已經有科學定下來的那是吧 你先開始講不科學的東西好了 請停一下署長 我相信連美國這個延長兩三年這個都是要經過審查確認的藥劑不是 你要寫著日期在那個地方你要再繼續確認是OK的有一個審查的過程才是準不是說你直接說過期了可以繼續使用"},{"start":3468.293,"end":3483.539,"text":"這個如果副署長如報媒體所講的這個言論是有問題的但你身為主管機關你不用出來糾正羅署長這種不合乎醫藥安全及法規的發言嗎你可以自由發言說這個效期過了半年一年都還有效嗎你沒有出來糾正嗎你不用公開再補充說明嗎"},{"start":3485.86,"end":3494.746,"text":"跟委員稍微補充一下我現在一個禮拜159萬已經補滿了所以現在都會是合格的但是缺貨基本上也還在遵守科科學的道理很簡單你沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK對不對醫學的倫理就這樣沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK而不是說你沒有證明它不OK就當作OK這個是Alpha error跟Beta error你懂的啊"},{"start":3510.923,"end":3518.089,"text":"以後還是請指要署要出來發言不是直接讓他過期然後就說好可以繼續用可以繼續用好嗎 確認就承認嘛確實承認大家先用也許之後再來補一次也是可以嘛謝謝委員 謝謝麻煩部長"},{"start":3529.005,"end":3536.652,"text":"部長前署密涉嫌將健保個資包括勤職人員販售給中國13年洗錢超過10億這件事情是非常的嚴重那代表不是說只有個人犯罪而且是健保資料查詢全線的控管異常的偵測治安安全制度全線失守所以這次立法我確實應該要把這個制度要補起來"},{"start":3550.725,"end":3564.356,"text":"在目前你送出來的法案版本第20條跟21條就是說牽涉這樣的犯罪處罰才一年以上七年以下如果涉有危害國家安全是三年以上十年以下我先請教部長你認為這樣的刑罰夠嗎我想這個罰則都是有經過你一定同意的吧因為這個不然你不會送出來吧"},{"start":3575.492,"end":3604.37,"text":"你覺得這樣罰則夠嗎?共點!他把資料賣到中國去耶!這個...這個...等一下我們好好來想這個罰則夠不夠好這個都可以我根據查案他有根據的不是,我要請教你有關退出權的問題退出權這個應該要有很明確而且容易操作的機制目前是說書面那未來是會有規劃那個線上處理嗎?線上申請退出權嗎?有或沒有就可以,就是目前是書面嘛"},{"start":3605.604,"end":3606.367,"text":"目前這個方向當然是在"},{"start":3609.71,"end":3616.192,"text":"在整個操作上面我們當然往這個方向來但是現在目前還是輸入而已我知道 我再問我再問說你這個退出權很重要嘛退出權就是讓他能夠方便嘛不是成了這個障礙這是第一個希望未來會規劃更方便的方式第二個這個範圍退出範圍的選項你夠不夠細緻譬如說民眾可不可以說我只選擇要退出住院那我門診我OK有沒有辦法做這樣的選擇"},{"start":3637.959,"end":3643.262,"text":"這個我們在授權的辦法會去詳細來處理請署長稍微進一步說明一下如果你有稍微細緻一點對不對退出的部分我可以挑嗎跟委員報告我們在第17條有一個授權法規就那個退出的資料的類別範圍都可以做那個執法的規範所以我們可以去區分那監保署會不會主動通知這是最重要主動通知民眾說你有退出權可行時你會告訴他們嗎"},{"start":3666.937,"end":3684.18,"text":"我們是這個原則上是這個法規通過之後的那個實施日期啦大家看報紙嗎?看媒體嗎?那當然我們會正式有一些公告那如果委員覺得需要有一定的時間讓民眾都理解的話立法的精神在這裡嘛"},{"start":3684.56,"end":3703.828,"text":"可以有一個冷凍期來做為讓大家來行使權利那請署長再思考這個部分那另外對於部長對查詢行為的監控跟異常預警的機制業主命能夠三人如入無人之境他調取資料然後轉存然後帶出去那表示說健保署內部根本查不到誰查了這個資料事後也無從這個集合"},{"start":3707.93,"end":3728.447,"text":"那你將來你要怎麼去避免呢 你一個健保資料諮議會 就是剛剛我談到的這個第一個諮議會是任務編組 諮詢編組 請問諮議會有沒有資料調查權跟他的建議權有沒有約束力有沒有 你目前的 他是個諮詢慶祝任務編組有沒有約束力 他有沒有資料調查權"},{"start":3729.929,"end":3736.014,"text":"你現在的設計呢?我想我們在這申請資料進來就有審查小組,這個審查小組就比較屬於專業那有爭議的部分才到執議會去解決,但是前面的審議小組就很嚴格它有裡面的24個專家、學者,包括一些…大家都會認真工作,但是還是要有一個相對的監督機制嘛請問執議會的運作是不是透明?"},{"start":3755.111,"end":3762.896,"text":"他會不會公開會議記錄議題的審查因為這些都攸關整個社會對於這項制度的一個信任度啊那製衣會將來要怎麼做你們有擬出這些辦法嗎"},{"start":3770.011,"end":3787.244,"text":"我們這位授權法規來編組他現在就是任務編組嘛,他就是諮詢性質嘛,我也參加過很多這種諮詢委員會嘛到最後決定的就是健保署嘛,衛福部嘛所以這個東西為什麼剛剛我在指裡讀一遍,就是基本上你這個東西都要寫清楚,法庭都要直播"},{"start":3789.786,"end":3794.991,"text":"因為申請的案很多啦所以不可能之後一直開一直開沒足案的話那可能真的是會開不完啦"},{"start":3806.668,"end":3832.886,"text":"審查小組就會扮演他的審查的責任那質疑在這裡是比較困難比較有矛盾或者是審查的結果需要去確認為什麼我認為質疑會沒有獨立性當初法院的這個違憲的判決就憲法法庭說主管機關對人民各自的使用應該要建立獨立監督機制但目前草案中的監保資料質疑會的設計根本就沒有獨立性更不要說監督的效能"},{"start":3833.326,"end":3844.739,"text":"那部長這個草案中的自衣位它是隸屬於主管機關啊是衛福部跟健保署啊根本沒有獨立性啊所以我才會說它是送一個違憲的一個版本到立法院啊屬於你它有什麼獨立性啊就聽你的啊"},{"start":3850.066,"end":3866.851,"text":"我跟你講署長我也要跟你講這個健保商包括製衣小組我們開會也不是逐字稿會後怎麼整理也是由聖保署來處理我常常覺得討論的氛圍跟最後的會議紀錄是不一樣的名單也不敢公佈因為就是專家為名單也不敢公佈"},{"start":3867.871,"end":3878.242,"text":"那這個包括這個醫療科技評估你很多的這個財務衝擊多少人數官方也不一樣官方是這樣子然後藥廠是這樣然後學會是這樣都不一樣但是還是官方說了算嘛為什麼它隸屬於你嘛我是舉例給大家聽這個沒有獨立性啦這個東西我在裡面太久了我要告訴大家我看到的是這個問題那不用說你們今天送來才會整個內部都在處理"},{"start":3890.134,"end":3899.32,"text":"目的外的利用跟管理這跟憲法判決的主義違背大法官2020就告訴你們說這個現在的規定對於健保資料庫存處理對外傳輸以及對外這個提供利用的主體目的要件範圍等都沒有明確的規定這是你送來的草案也沒有處理這個問題嘛所以我才想到說這是一個違憲的版本嘛所以我剛剛也才提到說在個人資料保護法"},{"start":3917.353,"end":3926.938,"text":"以及個人資料保護委員會,這兩大法都沒有處理確定之前,你現在立這個法是根本就不該嘛,還是違憲嘛,不然為什麼勞動大法官來釋憲呢?我們就是因為這個憲判他說不明確,所以我們這個法就讓他明確"},{"start":3936.082,"end":3956.764,"text":"所以來解決這個宪判的問題請你們也想想看我今天談的話我們都可以在後續提供寶貴的意見我想要講的醫藥品查驗中心、健康資訊跟醫療科技評估中心過去長期都在使用健保資料庫那你覺得現在是合理合法的嗎?合法使用嗎?"},{"start":3957.384,"end":3977.005,"text":"這個是合法使用 第一個我們目前在健保法裡面就有醫療科技評估這個要求那第二個它所使用的都是去識別化的資料因為它主要是在流行病學上那我想請問2022年既然憲法法庭做出了這個判決之後你有做任何修正嗎"},{"start":3979.169,"end":3987.969,"text":"您說的是哪一方面的修改我不知道你要怎麼管理啊因為你以前是健保法現在有個憲法的敘現在這個地方啊"},{"start":3989.446,"end":4009.092,"text":"第一個是這個管理條例這是一個方面第二個我們也提出了行政法人讓HTA由國家的科技評估中心的條例的草案我們現在也在行政院審查中"},{"start":4009.292,"end":4030.464,"text":"在制度當中你知道這個問題很大嘛已經進行了這麼多年嘛我今天真的是就法論法啦那根據我們辦公室部長根據我們辦公室掌握資料健保署跟部分的這個企業簽訂MOU其中涉及健保資料的研究運用合作有的還提到資料分析跟某些疾病的成效我要請問這些MOU是否已經涉及實質上的提供"},{"start":4031.104,"end":4046.103,"text":"分析或協助使用健保資料庫的內容如果是健保署這樣行為合法嗎有什麼依據部長根據我們了解健保署跟藥廠簽的MOU有送到衛福部衛福部都退回了部長你覺得這個事情"},{"start":4048.203,"end":4057.271,"text":"跟委員報告目前沒有涉及到健保資料的使用是提供技術的資料在我們的健保署裡面在分析我們是在內部的使用並沒有對外提供"},{"start":4070.121,"end":4076.67,"text":"你跟人家簽MOU啊 一再的退回MOU的內容非常的廣泛我會跟你要MOU的內容你還在持續跟不同人簽為什麼有這麼急嗎就是你先有這個法座依據才開始去簽啊我知道你的個性我知道你做事很認真就是說基本上這個很注重效率"},{"start":4087.685,"end":4111.105,"text":"但是這樣子的做法等於說根據這次我們要審的全民健保的資料管理條例本來是為了落實憲法法庭的判決才來回應社會對這個個資的期待但從目前健保署的做法來看當然產生質疑你先跟產業界建立合作架構然後釋出已經釋出健保資料沒有釋出健保資料再次跟委員沒有沒有"},{"start":4115.01,"end":4125.398,"text":"我想署長已經講得很清楚了,絕對我們部裡面也會...你沒有法律依據在做這個info處理,我要講一下real world data這個資料庫我有四部,最後我要講四部,這個國人的資料,它不屬於國家"},{"start":4131.482,"end":4157.48,"text":"不屬於衛福部不屬於健保署也不是任何人可以使用的這個就是一個非常重要一個個人資料權的建立這是個旅程碑是個非常重要的旅程碑所以我今天這個談的東西也請兩位首長要好好思考然後我需要看那個MOU請送到那個看委員會或辦公室來我們所有MOU都展示公開展示在我們的健保的公開空間隨時歡迎那個委員來辦公室查閱"},{"start":4158.44,"end":4175.644,"text":"為什麼到辦公室 你不能送過來嗎今天沒有這個法我們現在都公開所有的人都可以看到而不是只有委員可以看得到那為什麼外服部一再退回呢外服部一直退回啊沒有 只是修正文字而已啊一直退回啊 但是你還是照跑啊"},{"start":4177.645,"end":4192.093,"text":"是修正文字啦 問不問不還有很多問問 針對這個把它處理得更文字上更好不是退回 而是補充意見 但是該堅守的一個規定還是一定堅守的我是希望你們不要先設限在畫榜 就是今天你要做一些"},{"start":4192.973,"end":4213.424,"text":"資料的運用但是今天我們對這個資料利用的這個法由憲法判決之後我們要做的一個精神還沒有立好還沒有處理好不要先去跑我知道這個當然工作效率等等未來的使用我自己都非常支持這個資料的分析跟聊一下這個很重要這對於我們這個醫療的創新非常重要但是這個法還是要守還是要守好謝謝兩位署長謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":4218.803,"end":4238.194,"text":"那請部長跟署長有空間再跟陳委員說明一下獨立性獨立性獨立性很重要練三次那個資料不能出去不能出去不能出去一出去署長就要移送我辦了好接下來請林月請委員來做詢問好麻煩我們的邱部長來請部長"},{"start":4253.156,"end":4268.274,"text":"民國111年憲判制第13號判決已經指出現行的健保資料基於醫療衛生或犯罪預防還有國家的公共利益目的來做使用"},{"start":4269.921,"end":4294.735,"text":"且資料要經過去識別化所以事實上是合憲的可是至於我們的欠缺個資保護的獨立監督跟欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制跟欠缺當事人的請求停止使用的相關規定看起來事實上是違憲的而且要在三年內 也就是今年的8月11號"},{"start":4295.615,"end":4322.305,"text":"之前要立法補強這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在所以部長依據公務機關依法行政的習慣在立法之前資料申請許可上勢必相對保守因為沒有人負得起責任可以一旦通過立法則意味開放因此立法必須要謹慎尤其在保護制度上"},{"start":4323.072,"end":4343.832,"text":"据宪判制第13号判决与个人资料保护法的第6条第1项第4款去识别化的规定本席认为健保的资料使用必须以国家公共利益为原利益目的原则为基础并在这个原则底下去制定管理规则这个部长应该同意吧"},{"start":4345.634,"end":4369.962,"text":"那現行有衛福部衛生資料科學中心跟健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用那衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌症資料的申請可串聯其他系統一年三百件那健保署的資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像檢驗的"},{"start":4373.063,"end":4373.083,"text":"請問部長這邊"},{"start":4392.825,"end":4393.185,"text":"教育局長"},{"start":4410.888,"end":4414.93,"text":"開放的對象跟現在相同,因為這是國內法所以一樣嗎?學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎?想得到一個確確的答案醫院跟學術研究這兩個嗎?"},{"start":4432.685,"end":4458.054,"text":"那可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益因為特定的政策所提出的研究價容易認定跟政策沒有直接關係的研究案你們的審查標準是什麼當然是要對醫藥的發展公共衛生我們第六條已經有明定它的一個目的"},{"start":4459.446,"end":4461.948,"text":"有講清楚說明白嗎"},{"start":4472.573,"end":4491.383,"text":"我們在第八條有明訂 那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質 公共衛生 社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關 那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用"},{"start":4494.384,"end":4519.444,"text":"那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個臺灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據checkpoint research的統計2024年臺灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊"},{"start":4522.467,"end":4542.069,"text":"2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得"},{"start":4544.076,"end":4561.787,"text":"會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情"},{"start":4564.128,"end":4579.647,"text":"跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心"},{"start":4584.451,"end":4604.734,"text":"那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":4605.454,"end":4630.842,"text":"並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍"},{"start":4632.182,"end":4639.568,"text":"你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告 剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題"},{"start":4653.089,"end":4677.134,"text":"所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理"},{"start":4679.578,"end":4707.628,"text":"這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查 他都同樣某一個大學的 可是事實上是在中國侵入這個部分 我想我們會做好最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全棄屍白化屍 只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格 這個我們這些人來做對 我說他都同樣是這個學校的 可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分 當然我們"},{"start":4708.387,"end":4708.788,"text":"因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請"},{"start":4717.473,"end":4745.405,"text":"可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為"},{"start":4745.965,"end":4750.352,"text":"你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎"},{"start":4755.155,"end":4778.384,"text":"醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來"},{"start":4779.946,"end":4801.059,"text":"沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益"},{"start":4802.541,"end":4816.853,"text":"歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金"},{"start":4818.314,"end":4839.114,"text":"有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查的資格"},{"start":4841.896,"end":4867.628,"text":"產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過"},{"start":4869.645,"end":4886.776,"text":"包括資金的 經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到"},{"start":4888.477,"end":4912.08,"text":"幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是"},{"start":4913.081,"end":4936.787,"text":"因為它有牽涉到比較複雜那第四五條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有的方比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來定辦法由主管機關來定好最後吼但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的"},{"start":4940.19,"end":4966.202,"text":"補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在國邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數"},{"start":4969.244,"end":4984.894,"text":"也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候"},{"start":4985.174,"end":5003.081,"text":"他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法在就是如果需要是串"},{"start":5003.701,"end":5025.515,"text":"串接製藥的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始製藥的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已可是罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛所以還是希望是需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要它就是罕病你要知道它的這個"},{"start":5027.095,"end":5048.945,"text":"這個效果怎麼樣它的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最最這個所以在這邊我還是要強調一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話我覺得要有被保險人應該要有這樣一個權利以上 謝謝應該是這樣 謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹 謝謝"},{"start":5054.791,"end":5067.378,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝林委員的宣達接下來請陳情惠委員來做宣達謝謝主席 還有各位委員 我請邱部長來 請部長委員長 部長好"},{"start":5074.568,"end":5102.577,"text":"去年7月你還記得我們有一個朝野協商當時你說今年6月30以前要達成平均點值1.95元可是您在今年1月的時候受訪有一點沒信心那當然今天已經6月9號了所以大家都很關心你6月30號以前有沒有辦法達到平均點值1.0.95元我想我們第一季的成果已經出來了那可不可以請署長跟委員報告一下"},{"start":5105.419,"end":5119.033,"text":"總額裡面主要有五個總額分別是醫院總額、西醫基層總額、牙醫、中醫以及透析總額目前看起來是在西醫基層的部分平均點值是0.946其餘的話都達到0.95以上"},{"start":5124.018,"end":5133.606,"text":"好 這邊我幫你做出來了也是要幫你鼓勵一下因為除了台北區0.936南區跟東區每一點都超過1元有一些事情做對了比如說開源你們增加了712億實質成長率突破8%加大投資另外把一些醫療項目移出健保總額積極爭取有一些用公務預算來挹注所以本席很關心的是你們今年"},{"start":5151.421,"end":5168.721,"text":"還是一樣要用8%這個成長率來規劃嗎還是更多 這個是醫護人員期待的因為最終我們還是希望點只是1點1元我們現在衛福部建議的最高推估是跟去年 跟今年是一樣的明年是一樣的不要5.5啦"},{"start":5171.124,"end":5196.702,"text":"那其他為什麼要到十字成長8%是因為我們把一些項目移出來那這個部分我們會再繼續來溝通來看看哪些項目可以再陸續來移出來那政府應該還會在一些計畫裡面就像我們補治今年補治的寒病原來在健保總委也有保障再多了另外多了二十億那所以這個政府還會有"},{"start":5199.911,"end":5215.442,"text":"癌藥基金也會再增加所以我想增加從公務預算以及我們增加的量應該跟今年一樣公務預算或移出來的這個部分補起來我想規模也會"},{"start":5217.944,"end":5233.341,"text":"那其中你還有一個政策是比較關乎於節流是穩定點植有幫助 您認為個別醫院總額目前你有沒有遇到什麼瓶頸好 我想個別醫院總額是希望能夠"},{"start":5235.218,"end":5257.177,"text":"以區域來講特別當然是我們希望有分級醫療能夠落實那也希望醫院能夠財務自己管理那我們也不是說只有醫院管理我們應該有區域的我們很希望只六個分區能夠所有的醫院自行來管理以病人的健康為中心因為就是那些錢"},{"start":5258.274,"end":5268.749,"text":"那你怎麼樣讓病人更健康那我先給你看現在遇到什麼問題上禮拜大家這邊非常多委員啊官員都一起去觀摩這個中榮做得非常好的AI智能醫院那但是他卻被斷頭三億"},{"start":5274.717,"end":5302.132,"text":"所以現在我們用這個三階段折付制度逐漸的去打折一旦報大量超過三階段就完全不予給付那你把大家一起承受這個系統性的風險轉到個別醫院去承擔就是說你們醫院服務量大你們就自己來扛我有很多同學現在在不同的醫院有醫學中心有地區醫院有區域醫院結果他們被柔性勸導"},{"start":5303.172,"end":5329.425,"text":"第三劑 第四劑說 縮減一點門診門診 有一些門診要關起來這個你們有聽說這個狀況嗎因為現在個別醫院是各自為政自己去做控管嘛那我是認為如果你剛剛講的 以病人為中心以醫療服務為中心有一些醫院他就是沒有辦法因為區醫院 地區醫院他自己在控管所以全部塞到像中榮這樣子的大醫院去"},{"start":5330.225,"end":5351.226,"text":"他自然就會爆量啊這個爆量也不是他能夠控制的嘛那你全國不同調最後受害的還是人民服務量降不下來的狀況你有沒有一個統一的規範可以去調整不然每一個醫院絕對是亂成一團現在有人是限制門診限制門診等一下我告訴你另外一個問題限制門診病人就擠到急診去"},{"start":5353.542,"end":5374.601,"text":"好 報告委員我想我剛剛已經提到了我們要從根來解決由根本來解決醫療體系的問題怎麼樣讓人民更健康使用然後該盡量不要生病一生小病是有一個社區就可以得到一個很好的照顧讓他小病不要變大病那大病應該有分級的"},{"start":5375.061,"end":5390.218,"text":"各種 不管是大小病或重大病或重病那是不是有不同的不管從醫學中心去醫院甚至地區醫院都應該做好他的角色這個才是根本之道那我想也拜託民眾能夠了解到我們一直在推分級醫療也需要"},{"start":5390.678,"end":5418.753,"text":"全國的民眾大家來瞭解來配合我們市級包括基層醫療的醫師都是非常優秀都是從教學醫院的主治醫師出來的他願意到社區服務就是願意貼近民眾請大家多多利用那這樣的制度是能夠解決未來的問題那個別財務的管理是一個促使達到這樣目標的一個一個手段啦那至於說台中農總這樣我們真的這些好朋友們真的很辛苦"},{"start":5421.254,"end":5434.898,"text":"民眾也對他們很有信任 所以他們的成長率真的比較高但是憲保署方面也給他的最平均與中區6.6%之下 他給他7.9%的成長所以他實質上的收入比去年的同期是增加了2.5億元"},{"start":5442.601,"end":5463.862,"text":"不管怎麼樣我還是要補充一下我們希望醫學中心真的扮演他急重症的角色我再來要跟你討論急重症現在遇到什麼問題我們不想要看到很優秀的醫院被懲罰畢竟你說實際收入增加2.5億可是他還是有部分的醫療服務他什麼東西都沒有拿到這也是事實"},{"start":5465.274,"end":5477.159,"text":"這也是事實所以我們不想要第三劑 第四劑又遇到同樣的問題因為我是在市井你剛剛講得很好要分幾醫療 急重症等等我給你看一下急診你遇到什麼大問題急診到現在66個醫師流失離職了"},{"start":5482.961,"end":5500.691,"text":"根據急診醫學會內部的統計還有40到50位醫生正在離職的路上所以他們推估今年有可能上看120位要離職那你知道今年通過專科醫師考試的只有92位耶只有92位這一些很有經驗的人離職新進來的心血還遠低於離職的人數"},{"start":5505.748,"end":5521.266,"text":"有一個記者跑去台中榮民總醫院嘉義分院擔任急診醫師的人去做採訪他是中榮最大的分院他們統計起來他們至少需要五個急診醫師可是他們只有四個人真人啟示貼了五年都還沒有來那"},{"start":5523.504,"end":5535.553,"text":"上次我想到說 你二月的時候有用這個特別預算去做一些解決啦但是也有人提到說 是不是把醫師的診療費 診察費分出了護理費來挖東牆 補西牆請問這個42億到底錢用到哪裡去 實際作為是什麼為什麼我們現在的急診人力還在不斷的流失中"},{"start":5548.618,"end":5571.652,"text":"好,世事貿易的事情等一下請業務單位監保署報告我還是要講整體醫療體系的事情那我想急診醫師我們不能量數目是一件事情但是每一個急診醫師都是一個每一個人都是一個非常優秀而且面臨很大壓力一個一個都是我們所想要照顧也很心疼的"},{"start":5572.412,"end":5600.713,"text":"每一位議事人力那我最近剛好回台大碰到急診部主任那也是我的學生我就問他說你們流失的狀況怎麼樣他說有一位退休一位想要到分院去我說為什麼要到分院去我可能總院壓力比較大但是已經欠說之下他是留下來所以台大主治醫師好像就是一個退休一個本來要走後來沒有離開這是大概三天前我問的事情"},{"start":5601.273,"end":5629.672,"text":"但是當然我也希望所有的醫院真的要了解到我們急診尤其大概每一顆啦其實每一顆都可能會有這種問題所以我們必須要整體來思考這件事情我不能說哪一顆就比較嚴重你可以整體思考但現在真的有一點危急因為我五月的時候就提過臨時提案面臨這個急診人力荒到現在都還沒回我難道你們是想不出解決方案了跟你講一個更嚴重的"},{"start":5631.173,"end":5641.95,"text":"除了急診雲嘉南地區最近發生了一些網路上很大的事情神經內科的醫生他們除了面臨這些我剛講的是急診醫生喔急診醫生還會出來講話"},{"start":5644.537,"end":5662.244,"text":"重症醫生有些是默默的默默的就離開職場了他們處理的是最多醫療糾紛的事情他們除了面臨職場的壓力還要面臨網路上的網路霸凌有一位神內醫師他在網路上嚴重的被霸凌後來醫院經過了幾天站出來幫他講話結果呢我們來看一下"},{"start":5666.906,"end":5686.038,"text":"另外一位醫師他請大家認真歡迎的轉發並且鼓勵投書的Lancet真的很丟臉你以前人家說台灣醫療崩壞不准寫到的Lancet硬把這篇文章拉下來還有一大堆側翼去攻擊寫文章的醫生現在又有一個醫生站出來了"},{"start":5686.798,"end":5707.564,"text":"他說家常身為雲嘉南最後的後送中心因為本院神內嚴重的崩盤為了保存本院重症人力即日起實施第一個非適應症勿在此群組發文二無神經科人力無法收治腦中風請直接聯絡他院急診轉院勿在此群組發文三"},{"start":5711.085,"end":5736.507,"text":"重症人力需用在刀口上10pm到7am不再收治無明顯效應之轉診以上非常抱歉這是重症醫療崩盤的下下之策感佩還願意留在最前線的各位也希望帶回給各醫院高層與政府高層正式腦中風醫療崩壞善待願意留下來的各位歡迎轉發鼓勵推出The Lancet"},{"start":5741.482,"end":5756.936,"text":"你剛講得很好 落實分級醫療希望集中症的人都可以留任你撥了42億 說要鼓勵這些人留任這些人現在直接在網路上說拜託大家轉發 鼓勵投書的Lancet你還要再把Lancet文章拉下來嗎"},{"start":5758.929,"end":5784.426,"text":"包委員我想這個要分幾個方面來講我剛剛有提過醫療體系真的要從根來就其那當然第二個健保的一個我們台灣健保三十年是讓我們台灣窮人能夠得到很好的醫療所以我們要珍惜那健保現在的總額就是這樣子我們已經盡量做好幾乎所有的科都會覺得當然比其他國家幾乎都是"},{"start":5785.327,"end":5801.404,"text":"第一我們真的要想辦法,我想政府也一直,所以今年才會補助這麼多的公務的預算也希望未來立法院這邊也能夠多多幫忙,讓健保的資源能夠更加的充沛那我相信對於各級戶"},{"start":5802.985,"end":5817.456,"text":"畢竟在疫還是很重要的事情我知道像署長本人也是急診科醫師出身嘛所以我真的希望你們好好的去盤點現在急重症的人力因為他們已經在預警已經在示警了我不希望你們第三劑第四劑又遇到相同的問題最後一個您出國的時候"},{"start":5820.959,"end":5848.455,"text":"大家知道說我們最大的教學醫院的聖堂某一個科別從最基層的醫師到大教授都出了性侵害性騷擾等等事件所以針對醫師法第25條在這邊希望要求你們可以具體的把違背醫學倫理做含釋請問可以答應嗎最後公佈在你們的法規檢索系統因為上次次長來報告他說正在跟每一個團體做討論跟研擬"},{"start":5851.004,"end":5866.016,"text":"我想我們醫生就是不能違背醫療倫理這是天經地義不變的真理我跟你說你出國的時候就是因為沒關係這個不管我出國不出國你出國的時候就是因為他沒有根據醫師法這25條把他送懲戒我們還是關心國內的任何的事情就是因為沒有根據25條去送懲戒因為他沒有寫寫清楚哪些狀況有含釋違反醫療醫學倫理"},{"start":5879.605,"end":5907.225,"text":"所以之後你們可不可以 我會追這個進度會趕快的把它記起來 回應委員的詢問好 謝謝好謝謝 詢問的宣達那接下來請王育民委員來做詢答那我們委員會這邊公告蘇清泉召委詢達結束後休息10分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":5908.834,"end":5913.055,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我們是不是有請邱部長來請部長委員長部長好部長我想剛剛很多人都提到了現在我們醫療現場急重症這個人力不足的問題那再加上從昨天到今天陸續有急診科的醫師他去提到說這個"},{"start":5937.881,"end":5952.645,"text":"急診科醫師想要離開沒有表態的離職人數 我看到這個數字有點嚇到上看120人 我不曉得這位醫師講的是真實的還是是他有推估比較多 如果是這樣一個數據的話"},{"start":5954.426,"end":5975.179,"text":"那我覺得面對未來還有新冠疫情的升溫這是讓人家會非常擔心的就是可能連急診的第一現場要去救治病患這個人手都嚴重的不足第二個是重症的部分剛剛也這個陳俊輝醫師有提到這個新聞也引發大家的關注就是"},{"start":5976.039,"end":5980.084,"text":"這位長庚醫院的這位醫師他發出的這個訊息 簡訊我覺得是一個求救的訊息就是他在現場他可能已經看到這樣的狀況的惡化如果再不告訴醫院的高層跟政府的高層"},{"start":5995.601,"end":6011.828,"text":"他認為這樣的一個醫療的崩壞真的是我想他站在現場第一位真的是非常的擔心所以我個人會覺得這樣的簡訊是是一種求救性啦就覺得現場的狀況真的很糟了那我就要問一下部長你們有沒有實際"},{"start":6013.329,"end":6033.242,"text":"去了解去關心或者去找這一些疾重症的這一些醫師們真的坐下來稍微焦點團體一下他們現在最最需要政府伸出援手的到底是什麼看了讓人家很心疼啊就是感覺他們是願意蹭在第一線的但是感覺快要倒下了然後希望說是不是趕快有人可以來協助他們我看到這樣的訊息是有這樣子的一個感受"},{"start":6042.828,"end":6055.334,"text":"那我現在要問的就是說作為中央部會主管機關到底衛福部在緊急當然分階段剛剛部長你有說有一些是長期根本的問題但是現況就已經很糟了那現在這麼糟怎麼樣去穩住他們然後讓這個醫療現場不要有更多的這個醫師離開我覺得這個是我們處理事情分階段這個是第一要務可能要做的請問衛福部可以做什麼他們已經發出這樣一個訊息請問衛福部可以做什麼"},{"start":6072.079,"end":6097.188,"text":"好 謝謝委員的詢問我想分幾個來報告第一個急診方面有建議在過年那段期間的游泳賽我們除了對護理方面的盡量來給他照顧、鼓勵、改善以外當然相對的對醫師也會好因為整個是團隊的事情在這個部分也有提高給付第二個我們也希望能夠分級醫療減少"},{"start":6099.702,"end":6106.666,"text":"減少那個急診醫師的部分輕重那個急診醫師是這樣子我們一年大概像113年的急診醫師是102個通過那112年在前年是109個大概都100出頭那當然我們我剛剛有報告過"},{"start":6118.652,"end":6137.758,"text":"有些醫院可能離開的比較嚴重,有些醫院像台大我剛剛就只有一個退休其他目前是還沒有動對,那我想問的就是說比較嚴重的你們有沒有特別去關注我想我們如果以這種訊息出來,我們當然想要來了解整個很快來了解急重症我們這兩天在討論,部隊在討論就一直說要去注意到各個科裡面的一個"},{"start":6146.08,"end":6166.13,"text":"現在的流線 我懂 但是急診是第一線他講120人 我覺得這個數據 你覺得有高估嗎現場是不是大概是這樣子因為120人 上百位要離職 他說沒表猜想離職有這麼高 這個上百位其實對第一線現場 我覺得是一個很大的衝擊因為說實在的啦 長這段這些年來的確我們當醫師也很辛苦"},{"start":6173.221,"end":6189.932,"text":"像我一輩子在醫院打扮我也買不到一間房子台北市還在貸款所以你就知道說年輕的醫師是不是更加的困難所以他們當然會牽涉我這個改變就牽涉到你的各種給付工作環境這個是長久以來累積的一個很大的當然我們很感佩"},{"start":6200.939,"end":6215.789,"text":"立法院這一屆的委員真的都很用心在幫忙解決這個問題我們的政府我們都願意支持啊也是日夜在解決這個問題醫療方面被立法院全力支持以我當一個醫學院教授這麼多年我總是希望我的學生出來"},{"start":6216.73,"end":6244.404,"text":"能夠好我做 不能給他遭遇 不然我就死了對啊 所以那個環境很重要嘛可能就不是去做他的專科了所以部長 因為我還有下一個要問的如果能夠跑到蘇昭偉那邊去服務還可以得到很好的奮鬥環境因為現在現場無論是急診或是重症他們都已經發出這樣的求救訊息那我覺得作為中央主管機關你們有責任要提出方案"},{"start":6245.024,"end":6259.509,"text":"到底怎麼去解決跟改善那這個部分我覺得你們應該要去回應就是基層的問題我們知道長期來問題我們知道但是眼下是這樣一個問題因為接下來我就要問新冠的高峰"},{"start":6260.882,"end":6284.875,"text":"還要面對這樣的挑戰如果前面的急診量能都不足了醫師要離開那過去的新冠疫情我們已經看到了急診現場亂成一團全部擁捨到那邊去恐怕是雪上加霜啊所以我們應該要看一下這一個部分你如果沒有解決未來這一些再增加新的疫情的人進到急診來"},{"start":6285.595,"end":6302.543,"text":"那這個真的是會很可怕的一件事情所以我這邊希望你們針對之前的就是在新冠疫情高峰的時候所有的這個配套方案你們要超前部署是的我們有超前部署那接下來我要問的是今天這個委員會要審的"},{"start":6305.144,"end":6311.946,"text":"有關於整個健保資料庫的這個管理怎麼去加強它的監督管理因為之前的外洩事件的確對於個人來講這個是一個個資被倒賣那我想這個是一個很嚴重的這個侵害"},{"start":6320.749,"end":6336.721,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況底下你們這一次的修法就是你們好像是就用退出權而不是同意權這樣的概念也就是說我的健保資料要不要要不要提供學術研究是我要去申請退出"},{"start":6338.004,"end":6360.446,"text":"然後他才不會在上面而不是像金融機構說我可不可以應用你的資料他是問你的同意為什麼是這樣的差別因為現在也有民間團體說那為什麼是我要記得去講的時候我的資料才不會被應用就是一下子好像政府就幫我做決定你只要在我資料庫裡面呢我就是通通都可以用那我就問你像這些未成年人的資料"},{"start":6361.067,"end":6382.577,"text":"他自己可能也沒有敏感這個議題他也不會去退出啊那他的資料就是大批的從0到18歲通通都是政府使用那有一些年紀比較大的這些老人他可能不太知道這件事啊所以他的資料就整個在資料庫裡面就是沒有經過同意情況底下只是因為他沒有退出所以就被大量的使用我不知道你們有沒有思考過這個問題"},{"start":6383.757,"end":6398.017,"text":"因為到民間團體這樣子質疑的時候這的確是一個我們在如果同時要保護各自的話不是應該是他同意的情況底下使用嗎那你們現在是說你退出我就不用這有沒有有點便宜形式啊"},{"start":6399.059,"end":6413.564,"text":"好 我想同意不同意這件事 等一下再請那個負責健保的主管來報告那我先跟兩件事情報告 第一件事情就是資安系統我們被攻擊了以後 我們衛福部立即啟動"},{"start":6414.984,"end":6440.209,"text":"各種防衛的機制現在應該都攻不進去了醫院方面不是健保局裡面健保署裡面那健保署裡面的資料早就這些年來可能有十幾年了吧是非常的嚴格一定要到一個房間然後你什麼都不能帶喔那有人幫你輔導你要的資料就跑完跑完之後拿出結果完全都氣勢白話所以這個部分其實在"},{"start":6441.449,"end":6459.676,"text":"個資方面是絕對沒有問題我想請署長也可以再confirm一下跟委員報告我們採取這個所謂的退出權的行使主要是第一個我們這個資料的使用有相當的限縮它是以公益目的使用第二個資料都在特定的空間裡面"},{"start":6460.836,"end":6488.191,"text":"那麼經過去識別化之後的資料來跑所以理論上它已經這個相當的安全那麼使用的時候已經很安全再者呢也不可以有資料的吸出最後只拿出的是統計的結果所以在安全性還有各自的保護上已經達到最高的程度那當時呢保護是一回事啊那我是在問說為什麼不是取得個人的同意權而是用退出權"},{"start":6488.931,"end":6509.632,"text":"其實所有的資料的使用它也是按照它的程度的不同有所謂的OP IN OP OUT就是說事前告知同意或者是事後退出都可以就是假設同意事後退出或事前同意那麼事後退出或事前同意這有三種的不同的方式那我們這個資料因為已經這個"},{"start":6512.094,"end":6537.423,"text":"基本上都已經是經過去各自的方式去處理過所以我們採用的是用那個假設同意事後退出然後經過專法的管理我想這個問題我們還會回到主條的討論但是我也希望主管機關去思考就是說運用他的這些資料然後如果是他同意就是作為研究使用在這個"},{"start":6538.903,"end":6545.685,"text":"民眾他有同意的情況底下我想你們使用起來是更放心但是我們現在的模式是有點覺得說我既然都已經去識別化了然後我也保護得很安全所以不用經過你的同意這個你沒有反對再出聲這樣子會變成是有點倒過來這個跟現在就是我們有個資法之後的這個潮流坦白講他不是一致性很高的就是說你看連金融機構他們現在都被要求說要勾很多的同意書"},{"start":6568.68,"end":6588.248,"text":"他才可以這樣子所以我希望這個問題呢你們也好好思考在相關修法的時候我有相關的修正動作大家再討論好我們希望這個條例能夠創造三贏的局面是是好謝謝委員好謝謝翁委員的宣達謝謝部長謝謝接下來請蘇清泉蘇委員來做宣達蘇昭維來有請"},{"start":6594.827,"end":6621.552,"text":"那個急診要小心啦 王遠提醒了 謝謝謝謝趙偉 阿信部長 還有施署長來 署長施座會好剛才大家都在講急診 我跟你講屏東的情況是 謝謝屏東 屏東市有一間省重度嘛 屏東 屏濟嘛"},{"start":6622.611,"end":6646.063,"text":"他的腦神因為腎中毒後他就要腦神經內科要二十四休息所以大家都在等他跟他的四個神經內科醫生交叉的現在只剩一個,一個要來我那裡我說不行啦,你不可以把他修,我告訴你一定說你不可以把他修那修了他就斑斑"},{"start":6647.301,"end":6652.543,"text":"很嚴重,有三個醫生,五個早上到早上兩個,兩個都早上,早上兩個都早上,當天另外一間,早上兩個有三個醫生,一個八十幾歲,一個六十幾歲,署長還沒要放,所以我現在跟他們說,不然就做區域聯防啦,區域聯防,這是一個步啦,所以還是要想辦法啦,"},{"start":6675.231,"end":6696.688,"text":"那這所以平基任何跑掉的就就給他引導 再去府營 婦產科啦不然要怎樣所以我們在地方上我們都很努力的在讓他能夠維持好的運作雖然要保證知道事情真的可能不是跟他鬥氣而已身高也很嚴重因為現在婦產科醫生平均五六十歲"},{"start":6702.065,"end":6704.049,"text":"所以現在生小孩在加麻煩,非常麻煩"},{"start":6706.673,"end":6728.622,"text":"那像兒科我們那邊現在維持七個兒科醫師都是刺磚科那是硬要拿的每個都撩錢撩得好好的所以這個要怎麼去補償署長你可能要研究看看要怎麼樣每一次看到你們我都很疼惜他還要疼惜我們這個年輕醫生現在整個社會的觀念都變了現在年輕人沒有在聽這套"},{"start":6735.316,"end":6751.807,"text":"現在因為科技業者晶片業者他們太好找工作了而且只要你願意值班我們的住院醫師在值班人家在晶片的施工的也在值班但是人家只要值班年薪就250萬起跳"},{"start":6756.773,"end":6779.335,"text":"我去竹科那邊看 八八八 三班另外一個班是on call那on call就是不能離開新竹縣市call你的時候40分鐘要到那就四班在亂每一個都是250起跳 隔年就可以到300萬了我院長的小孩是念志工碩士"},{"start":6780.816,"end":6792.527,"text":"他現在在日夜光我說你現在年薪多少他就說80幾萬年薪沒有就上白班而已如果說他要值班就260"},{"start":6794.719,"end":6818.726,"text":"所以現在年輕人你跟他講說 喔 當公務人員多好當警察多好 當醫生多好他不會信到以前的公務人員 社會地位都很高現在公務人員要搞一個什麼退休用你自己提撥的錢 加政府提撥的錢這一筆基金 發完就沒了現在聽說變成這樣 這樣還得了我覺得這以後搞不搞就沒有人要考啦"},{"start":6823.323,"end":6825.587,"text":"整個都崩盤了嘛所以整個價值觀都變啦"},{"start":6827.946,"end":6853.332,"text":"這醫生這麼多年都沒薪水、沒什麼提高,所以還是要籌多一點錢,待遇還是很重要啦一位醫生住到台北,做醫生、做到老,沒有一間房子,要照死人人家在國外是薪水月薪,月薪差不多18個月就可以買一個房子"},{"start":6856.305,"end":6878.628,"text":"四個月也可以買一部車子這是當統計所以部長還有署長你們責任重大好 今天講今天的健保的東西這十幾年來偶爾就會出現一個官員用CME拿資料出去了然後被判刑了"},{"start":6879.81,"end":6890.957,"text":"好像都一直來那你現在的那個內部要拿資料的前線現在到底有沒有加強部長我們有要求健保署一定要去查清楚整個機制要加強請署長回答"},{"start":6899.978,"end":6915.717,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子當然還在檢調偵查中不過我們在這個事件之後已經重新檢討過在內積的部分去強化包含資料使用權限的限縮還有可取得的這個"},{"start":6917.098,"end":6934.126,"text":"資料的那個欄位就是最少原則那如果需要到大筆資料還要簽核所以都加強了這個內控的機制所有的使用紀錄都會被留下來就是你只要經過就有對 另外還導入外機的機制包含這個ISO27001的標準CNS27001的標準還有外機所以我們是強化內機之外也導入外機的機制"},{"start":6945.171,"end":6962.424,"text":"好那出皮肉都是健保署那國健署都沒問題喔國健署的資料也沒救捏我們這三高我們這什麼癌症病人都害得了所以國健署這邊有沒有洩露出去有沒有出事跟蘇昭偉報告一下這兩件事情這個是形勢問題這是他自己這是職員那個怕我們這個話齁"},{"start":6967.327,"end":6968.688,"text":"這是兩件事情,這個我們當然需要去檢討"},{"start":6984.379,"end":7006.243,"text":"但是今天討論的是因為我們本來就已經在做後來是因為宣判所以我們把他弄得更能夠讓大家安心病人隱私的一個保護跟安全這有兩個這個法案過了會比較清澈規範說要怎麼贏要先讓人家拿資料去贏我希望未竟開始的20年我的資料可以贏沒有你的資料可以贏你也不知道"},{"start":7013.164,"end":7022.733,"text":"說什麼去名字都去掉就用了搞不好你已經被用了一百次了我被用了一千次了論文就有六千篇了嘛對不對所以你這個法通過你也不知道你繼續也不知道你到底有沒有用說你可以退出還是不同意我不知道要發一個問求你跟政府說我的資料都沒有用"},{"start":7039.953,"end":7060.919,"text":"有這個我們社權法規委來處理這個而且會更細膩來看他不能釋出哪些資料那基本上如果去識別化的話像我個人的話我覺得只要識別化對公共衛生對國家的一個醫藥發展提升我覺得應該是沒有啦我們的資料被用去識別化名字都遮起來這樣這樣"},{"start":7062.816,"end":7081.944,"text":"那如果用之後這樣那當然安心啦對社會也有貢獻人家捐大體都在捐的大體老師都是這樣捐的嘛所以我們是可以理解但是一般百姓會不會理解我不知道好你這個法通過之後跟另外一件事就是倒賣個資倒賣資料出去這是兩回事"},{"start":7083.484,"end":7102.095,"text":"所以倒賣這一塊你們有什麼防患的措施剛剛署長講的以外有加強嗎 還是現在都不可能發生啊從此以後不會發生的對 我們都強化了就是剛剛講的都是在那個事件之後我們重新檢討過強化到目前的話都維持得很好我們一定要強化到絕對不可能再發生"},{"start":7107.956,"end":7115.183,"text":"現在這個法案提出來 願版的出來是要迎合這個憲法法庭的判決那跟我們資料會被盜賣這是兩回事所以這個要怎麼加強"},{"start":7122.315,"end":7150.22,"text":"你要回答?來,你來回答我來,我問李處長大量資料被下載所以我們已經從去年開始就進行一個管理每個月每個單位他只要有哪一個人在不對的時間、不對的地點、不對的量去下載資料,我們全部都有掌握然後都會給各個主管所以這個在USB跟硬碟現在都有這些管理跟委員報告好,OK"},{"start":7151.209,"end":7173.126,"text":"那我們健保這樣說30年來我們的就醫資料有680幾億筆有這麼多那怎麼用你們現在有已經apply來申請你們IRB通過之外你們這邊有一個委員會在審查在核准嗎我們有專案小組有專案小組這裡面有24個委員在做審查"},{"start":7178.43,"end":7203.125,"text":"那現在的設計如果經過審查以後當然沒有爭議就就看看後續怎麼樣我們會再來演繹但是如果有困難矛盾的話我們會有執議會來處理所以這個審查委員會上面還有一個執議會那這個執議會是這個因為他不可能主案審查那可能會受不了啦不可能啦不可能啦所以這個委員會先"},{"start":7204.286,"end":7210.618,"text":"先審查小組 過了就過了 沒有過的再送到執委會有爭議的到執委會"},{"start":7215.253,"end":7227.828,"text":"好那最後一個問題現在疫苗現在有還有三百多萬劑那現在你不是真的鼓勵大家要煮我有我自己煮六支我這個如果標準的就讓童弟我就煮但是我煮到現在我會嚇到不然你在煮嗎"},{"start":7234.801,"end":7249.294,"text":"我十月初一做一支,四月初一又做一支我現在有很多老人家或是鄉長、鎮長的人跟我說要不要做啊?要做的話怎麼辦?我說,我想說你不做可能會被罵要說要做會被罵嗎?我說也不一定做疫苗出現事情的規矩啊但是你不做疫苗應該是越來越危險"},{"start":7261.136,"end":7284.556,"text":"越來越重症,重症會跳起來因為我在民間看到的反正,有的年輕人,有的年輕人在過去的這個コミュニティ,做疫苗要有心理不整的有肉膜積水,心包膜積水,咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕�"},{"start":7289.68,"end":7297.107,"text":"我想大家都會說有可能有可能但是他們去請的那些要害沒有一件過的因為都不會死但是就都有症狀有的真的主要病心理不整真的有所以我在新浪溝這邊碰到一大堆所以我越看越擔心"},{"start":7312.02,"end":7316.424,"text":"所以呢你現在叫我打我還是會去打啦反正我怕會被打掉但是如果有人問我我真的會保留不然你宣示一下市長可不可以請我們專家跟大家宣導一下打疫苗是不是會有一個過去專家的"},{"start":7331.084,"end":7333.806,"text":"因為我們目前都還是有在針對就是所有的這個"},{"start":7347.416,"end":7371.335,"text":"疫苗的接種之後有如果不良反應其實是都可以通報所以我們一直有在收集這方面的數據然後在這個食藥署這邊有去做定期的這個統計那另外像委員提到就是說有這種接種之後疑似是因為疫苗造成的其實我們在這個不管在第一層衛生局這邊也都會去做調查然後如果這個真的是可能跟疫苗有關的也都會跟他說有這個救濟的這個管道"},{"start":7371.795,"end":7392.356,"text":"也就是可以提這個疫苗接種預防接種受害救濟這個部分那我們有一個獨立的這個專家委員會去做審議去判斷這個相關性因為疫苗本身一直在突變突變突變到現在跟原來的以前三年前的完全不太一樣了嘛那所以你現在新的疫苗是最新的這個病毒的突變那應該都有cover到"},{"start":7395.006,"end":7413.678,"text":"至少自主會後,如果中就中不中重鎮嘛重鎮的死亡率高嘛,所以有老三高的人所以還是鼓勵要打啦個人覺得也是要鼓勵啦所以你們要宣導要講清楚啦現在老人家最大的疑慮就是剛剛我講的無主會死,自然不會死,不會"},{"start":7419.013,"end":7441.546,"text":"所以現在針對這個疫苗接種的利弊得失的話我們當然還是會最建議的就是在這個高風險的族群像是這65歲以上的長者或者是這個有這個慢性病的患者他們如果得到這個新冠之後病發重症跟死亡的風險都很高所以在這個族群我們是一直大力的推廣要接種好 謝謝好 謝謝蘇長 謝謝 謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝好 我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7465.945,"end":7469.692,"text":"這裡有很多不同的東西"},{"start":8167.776,"end":8181.101,"text":"好 現在我們請邱政軍委員發言主席好 我們請邱部長好 有請邱部長部長好"},{"start":8189.004,"end":8211.26,"text":"根據2022年憲法法庭作出的憲法第13號判決我們這次針對健保資料使用明白指出三個違憲的問題第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定"},{"start":8213.018,"end":8231.756,"text":"那憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己的這個健保資料的資訊自主權也就是說我們人民應該要可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用 對吧市長對嗎不好意思 那剛剛那個市市長跟我講"},{"start":8238.256,"end":8253.456,"text":"我說憲法 憲判十三的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保這個資料的資訊自主權也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與問題外的使用嘛那我今天以一個"},{"start":8254.677,"end":8275.796,"text":"曾經看過病打針住院使用健保的人病人問最簡單直接的問題這算是保護資料的這個新法但這部新法上路之後我可以做什麼我的權利在哪裡那我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用怎麼用用了幾次這個有通知機制嗎"},{"start":8282.486,"end":8297.985,"text":"當然他是有退出權啦就是我你怎麼退出我們可以用書面來退出嘛所以我們這個法如果通過我們應該預計會有一個所謂冷凍期讓大家要退出的退出"},{"start":8299.831,"end":8318.712,"text":"不退出的話就當成說使用他退出之後就永久退出我們這個是從過去這些年來在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的他是要到研究者要到一個房間裡面去所以不然我的意思是說他退出在他退出之後就永久退出了是這樣嗎"},{"start":8320.854,"end":8345.133,"text":"所以在之前就要申請嗎目前的設計是這樣子你在實施之前他可以申請或者說實施之後他申請他申請之後就完全退出法律公告以後就有一個冷凍期這個時候我們會讓全民那冷凍期過後呢他如果要退出咧隨時還是可以隨時可以退出啊隨時可以退出行為就可以"},{"start":8345.994,"end":8351.458,"text":"申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申請申"},{"start":8375.795,"end":8391.952,"text":"這是例外嘛什麼是不是還是健康大數據還是跟美國交換資料如果有衝突到這個或者是這個算不算維護國家安全或算不算免除人們的生命你這個很難懂啊會在執議會我們有個執議會去討論"},{"start":8394.554,"end":8415.419,"text":"我希望這個東西要講清楚如果有模糊矛盾的話一定到執議會去討論那執議會的指程是非常完整的因為如果沒有法律條文沒有細節也沒有邊界的話那這些例外就是這個會變成說政府想要用資料的一個萬用開關你想用就用啊不能你們說了算嘛對不對"},{"start":8417.679,"end":8436.776,"text":"政府當然有它政策上的需要對 如果這個條例不能無限上綱啦那退出權就是假的嘛對不對 那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民"},{"start":8438.177,"end":8457.915,"text":"推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個"},{"start":8459.016,"end":8472.948,"text":"全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎 對吧"},{"start":8475.35,"end":8494.526,"text":"成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好 這個署長要不要回應一下"},{"start":8495.22,"end":8519.818,"text":"跟委員報告這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在有國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料"},{"start":8520.478,"end":8548.435,"text":"做目的外使用的時候的一些規範 制定 政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對 它是全國性的"},{"start":8550.442,"end":8571.061,"text":"如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議"},{"start":8574.983,"end":8593.989,"text":"我這樣講今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個資料時代的國家權利當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責要讓人民知道也要讓人民能夠選擇"},{"start":8595.709,"end":8619.028,"text":"因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎"},{"start":8621.605,"end":8639.73,"text":"我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是"},{"start":8642.762,"end":8670.362,"text":"我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去"},{"start":8671.042,"end":8700.075,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好"},{"start":8701.576,"end":8729.61,"text":"那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付"},{"start":8730.754,"end":8754.18,"text":"新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然要罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的啊我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也爭取大家的意見然後這因為總是要把"},{"start":8755.08,"end":8778.275,"text":"食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整個對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有它要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的輔導期是無限期"},{"start":8782.258,"end":8797.516,"text":"那你什麼叫無限期那你上去就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一"},{"start":8798.377,"end":8813.9,"text":"這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂良益一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長"},{"start":8814.781,"end":8831.499,"text":"那麼我這樣看現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心我們一定是用福島這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量我這樣舉例"},{"start":8837.105,"end":8854.557,"text":"我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎"},{"start":8857.67,"end":8874.438,"text":"詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是 這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個 這個真的是要考量 這是最基層的一個修正是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況"},{"start":8875.818,"end":8891.376,"text":"跟委員報告其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法定的法則但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢然後又摸了食物真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定他首先我們會給予他限期改正"},{"start":8891.596,"end":8918.674,"text":"對 因為你這個罰則定下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是是誰該罰 是誰來罰 怎麼罰包委 這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局了解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長 時間也到了啦"},{"start":8919.494,"end":8947.306,"text":"你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇喔那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚好我一直溝通謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝邱委員的好發言那接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":8957.932,"end":8961.637,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們這個邱部長有請邱部長"},{"start":8967.182,"end":8973.447,"text":"今天一個大新聞史上最大中國40億筆各資不設房全外洩然後精簡疑似台灣資料庫的檔案那我想起了這個內政部戶籍資料全外洩連上至總統副總統下至一般的官員老百姓所有的戶籍資料看光光這事發生在台灣也是事實只是不知道到底是誰把他外洩掉"},{"start":8996.986,"end":9003.389,"text":"那當然我們今天的健保資料的利用跟這個是不相關的但是我的意思是說光是這樣子在政府手上的而且是有資訊保護強度最高的然後就這樣子就被"},{"start":9015.073,"end":9022.221,"text":"被拿走了看光光了還在網路上販賣那我就想到我個人資料其實最常被販賣掉的就是車貸中心我在玉龍辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知玉龍最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩"},{"start":9038.537,"end":9042.659,"text":"肯定外卸那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外卸我們衛福部當時的衛生署委託國衛院"},{"start":9055.083,"end":9074.189,"text":"用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構賣光碟賣出去把每一個人的個資賣光光也是一樣健保資料庫所以才會有今天這一個憲法法庭的這個判決也才會有今天的立法"},{"start":9075.222,"end":9098.079,"text":"我們想像不到政府認為把我們的個人的名字出生年月日拿掉了然後就覺得說這種資料就可以賣給學術機關大家都知道賣給學術機關就賣給全台灣了 全世界了那個就好像是在說欸 有一個笑話 部長當你全部裸體 然後被看到的時候你要遮哪裡你裸體的時候 然後被大家看到了你要先遮哪裡 部長"},{"start":9105.711,"end":9129.62,"text":"蛤 遮哪裡當你全身脫光光然後被人家闖進來看到了你優先要遮哪裡遮臉這個要看當時的狀況大家都知道遮臉啦遮臉啦那跟你們這個去辨識話有沒有很像欸 把你的臉遮起來"},{"start":9131.041,"end":9152.213,"text":"然後呢 就全部都別人就看到也沒關係因為人家不知道你是誰可是不是欸 不是欸因為大家都知道 譬如說有心人士 某一個學者我對某個人好奇 我做一個學術研究我知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所"},{"start":9153.234,"end":9155.897,"text":"然後他看什麼診 勾跡得出來耶不是臉遮住了就看不出來我至少知道我在這個地方 這個地點 這個幾樓我看到一個男生 我也勾跡得出來你遮臉沒有用啦"},{"start":9170.141,"end":9181.716,"text":"這個是政府曾經做過的錯誤而且未來方法上稍微精進一點但基本上還是有點像只是說我們這個"},{"start":9186.361,"end":9210.36,"text":"還有一些配套的機制所以現在要來討論這種配套的機制到底可不可以合不合理這樣好不好所以憲法法庭的憲判制第13號的判決第一個大家都覺得說要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用第二個要給當事人請求利用這個停止大家都說不管是同意權或者是退出權這兩點"},{"start":9213.607,"end":9230.772,"text":"但是呢憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究這樣子是合憲的但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用它是違反我們剛剛講的說法律保留原則那也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲這個有做出了一個限制這樣子"},{"start":9239.415,"end":9252.212,"text":"那行政院 我們看行政院的版本因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本嘛那有 月請委員有版本啦那行政院的版本裡面我們就看到就是說"},{"start":9256.195,"end":9271.989,"text":"我們要這樣講好了就是說雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制收集個資健保個資依法有據然後讓當事人事前行使同意"},{"start":9273.13,"end":9290.148,"text":"然後呢符合特別重要公義和法律保留原則下也並不是絕對不允許啦但是他一直要求我們說國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除停止利用或限制利用各自的事後控制權所以我們在看"},{"start":9292.811,"end":9302.135,"text":"我們我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情所以就是說當事人可以請求停止利用然後我們不想要被目的以外利用然後行政院的版本就透過兩個程序不曉得講架空呢或者是說來實踐憲法法庭對我們這個要利用的要求第一個"},{"start":9319.702,"end":9323.565,"text":"就是缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期雖然草案就是說你可以請求停止利用但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前要公開目的外利用的規劃"},{"start":9340.276,"end":9352.583,"text":"然後讓當事人取得退出的這個訊息知道這個訊息也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前他根本連資訊都沒有"},{"start":9356.365,"end":9372.238,"text":"他可以有退出權但我不會告訴你我要給你利用了所以你根本不知道你也沒有辦法去申請退出所以這種狀況很多人都是你的健保資料可能被利用很久了很久了以後你才知道然後你才要去請求利用的停止"},{"start":9375.141,"end":9395.562,"text":"那在這種狀況會發生第二個狀況就是你去請求利用停止的時候已經之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響意思是說當你去請求我不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候那你之前被看光的就不算了還是要繼續被看啦"},{"start":9397.161,"end":9401.164,"text":"但從你請求開始不溯及既往然後只能從你請求開始不再被人家看這樣子所以我們的修正動議就是要求說其實在整部法施行以前我們類似事前同意的這個機制類似那我們需要加一個冷凍期讓我們可以有一個冷凍期我們要一個完整的同意權就是事前就必須要"},{"start":9425.302,"end":9425.965,"text":"請求讓我們退出這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎我們支持"},{"start":9432.942,"end":9459.145,"text":"你可以支持的這件事情很重要然後呢我們現在講還要討論如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權停止利用然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前公開目的外利用的規劃和當事人可以推出的訊息應該要能夠滿足最低的程序的保障所以請問部長"},{"start":9460.206,"end":9466.689,"text":"以現在這種規劃用哪種方法你會告訴人家說未來冷凍期之外我每做一個請求要利用的時候然後人家別人來跟你申請的時候那他們要怎麼樣告訴大家有人要來申請用大家的這個資訊了然後你如果有意見的話趕快去請求退出那你們要用什麼方法"},{"start":9487.625,"end":9509.286,"text":"我不是講我不是講冷凍期的我是說我們其實目前已經非常的非常的嚴謹那這個如果說我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生醫療的提升所以也必須要有一些善用但是過去多年來不是啦我在跟你講憲法判制"},{"start":9510.807,"end":9523.772,"text":"第13號判決 憲判是說你要給當事人請求利用我要退出的這一個規定啊所以整部法律很核心就是說可以退出啊除了冷凍期以外他隨時可以請求退出"},{"start":9531.961,"end":9543.726,"text":"他可以隨時請求退出但是那也要對這部法律有認知啊那他要去哪裡請求你們架設的網頁還是要資本申請那現在架設的網頁會在哪裡或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關這個要研究的政府機關要研究的他每跟你們申請一次要不要克責跟你們申請的人要告訴大家我現在要要去跟健保署申請這個個"},{"start":9561.192,"end":9568.897,"text":"個人資料利用囉 那讓大家可以看得到 看得到當事人才會說 我想要去停止被利用"},{"start":9571.133,"end":9594.168,"text":"這個 如果申請一年大概有三百案齁如果是不是每一案都要公告出去說不是叫你們 叫你們也可以啦或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以 申請機關 譬如說台大醫院因為否則 其實是 平常我都不知道有什麼事情這弟弟與我有何干 你要去理容跟我有什麼關係因為你在理容他也不知道 他什麼都不知道 他要去請求說我要退出他什麼都不知道啊"},{"start":9600.072,"end":9620.722,"text":"這是我們現在就有權利意識的人就知道因為我們有足夠的文化資本所以我們知道我健保的個資會被這樣子利用所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人他根本就什麼都不知道什麼都不知道欸"},{"start":9621.642,"end":9636.499,"text":"我們怎麼樣想辦法要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意你也隨時可以申請退出這樣子喔 OK好那我現在要再談的就是說我們要談霸王條款"},{"start":9637.691,"end":9647.844,"text":"看起來好像法律保留原則定了法律了然後你有同意權 退出權然後但是呢我們這裡面有一個霸王條款第19條就是第19條你們的草案裡面那三款規定的"},{"start":9653.872,"end":9674.884,"text":"你想要退出都不能退出喔那我們就要解釋你19條的這三款依其他法律主管機關或保險人員有提供的醫務為維護國家安全為免除人民的生命身體自由或財產上的急迫危險這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出這個叫霸王條款但是我們現在就討論說這樣才合理"},{"start":9678.846,"end":9701.873,"text":"第一個這個目的外利用的審核流與刑事人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理有舉出幾個原因第一個你們向你們的目的外利用你們衛福部的機關裡面有可能國健署要要要去申請啊跟你們健保署申請啊目的外利用嘛那你們自己衛福部機關內部申請然後你們衛福部自己機關內部核准然後呢"},{"start":9707.014,"end":9716.653,"text":"自己核准自己 機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定都是你們自己說了算 自己申請自己核准人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧"},{"start":9720.291,"end":9731.865,"text":"這個所有的詢問部門都是還是要依他的依法規來人家會認為你們都是你們自己申請跟自己申請自己核准啦特別是你們內部你們內部申請自己申請目的外利用的機會還可能要比別人大呢"},{"start":9737.824,"end":9739.306,"text":"但是如果有腐爛的話你們的把關機制不完全的話他會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障啊整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的這個自主權各自自主權他要有事後控制權"},{"start":9756.349,"end":9761.815,"text":"這個東西是很重要的但你如果你的把關機制都是你自己球員兼裁判人家會太鬆散人家會認為你這種的會贏的雖然你們有健保資料的這個執意會"},{"start":9772.386,"end":9789.69,"text":"但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們成員組成過就是關鍵要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有"},{"start":9797.045,"end":9813.802,"text":"有意見的啦我們都這個可以來討論讓他更周全那另外一個就是說以為了維護國家安全或者是要免除人民的生命生理自由財產危險這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔在這種狀況裡面大家會懷疑譬如說啦"},{"start":9820.308,"end":9835.184,"text":"主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告法制上如果用這樣子國家安全為由然後為了保護人民生命財產安全然後就公告了說你們都不准退出但是呢依照外國的經驗"},{"start":9837.026,"end":9851.361,"text":"以這個英國為例 他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需在這種狀況裡面他允許例外的限制當事人的時候控制權但是是講當事人 你們的條文是寫人民"},{"start":9860.02,"end":9862.323,"text":"所以人民你們保護的對象到底是當事人然後把它現在變成人民以人民為由所以你沒有去針對隨遇免除的人民的生命這個安全威脅"},{"start":9875.299,"end":9880.641,"text":"是不是真的存在這個危險是不是急迫性那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做所以這個也是榮譽腐爛在這種狀況裡面英國是說你應該要克責以正當程序對於特定事態的認定和公告到底有沒有真的是國家安全的疑慮到底有沒有真的是人民生命"},{"start":9904.469,"end":9907.971,"text":"這個身體自由財產權的威脅真的在你要對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和克責的基礎而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民免除人民受到危害這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的這個權利讓當事人的所謂的事後控制權就沒了"},{"start":9934.079,"end":9937.923,"text":"要設計一個把關的機制用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護真的是人民的生命財產權身體的安全受到威脅這個就是很重要的"},{"start":9957.461,"end":9968.712,"text":"那最核心有一個就是說第三個就是說用其他法律請求機關提供然後作為限制你不能退出大家都沒有退出權的這個依據在這裡喔這個規定學者認為說混淆了請求和義務權限的分別倘若說"},{"start":9979.483,"end":9996.679,"text":"因為其他法律說可以依照其他法律然後就要來請求了其他法律到底是什麼法律其他法律你定的有清楚嗎你其他的法律依據的這個法律當初立法的時候有界定了你這個法律要"},{"start":9997.419,"end":10025.118,"text":"利用的目的限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面克責於我們健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務而賦予這個他這個請求的機關或第三人強制收集我們健保資料的權限然後則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎那這樣講還有道理"},{"start":10027.459,"end":10042.232,"text":"你的法律有規定你這個為什麼必須要這樣做為什麼我們人民都有義務為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了才能夠到我們這裡來請求"},{"start":10046.155,"end":10067.184,"text":"你不可以你的法律什麼都不講你就不請求如果你們這種法律譬如說癌症防治法舉你們自己裡面的癌症防治法就好了你們癌症防治法裡面規定國家應提供充分資料致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究"},{"start":10068.565,"end":10077.814,"text":"與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作好 講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供個人都沒有退出權喔"},{"start":10079.008,"end":10102.244,"text":"沒有你這麼空泛沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段然後一般的學術上就是說我用癌症防治法當這個民使金牌霸王條款然後請求你們全部都有提供大家都不能退出然後空泛的用我為了要建立癌症資料庫作為這個當事人適合控制權來剝奪掉的最最好的理由"},{"start":10109.628,"end":10134.24,"text":"所以這樣整個手段工具整個健行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他這樣子是不行的所以在你們的行政院版本的草案裡面以籠統的依其他法律請求機關提供的其他法律用其他法律任何一部法律都可以"},{"start":10135.598,"end":10152.665,"text":"那這會大開任意的限制當事人退出權的方便之門所以我過去在立法上我們這些立委在對於這個提供義務和收集權限上你在操作上你必須細緻然後你要收集的法制程序要完備"},{"start":10159.434,"end":10172.82,"text":"要去正本清源在他們的其他法律裡面要規範清楚而不是便宜形式的 我就要請求了就請求健保署全部提供"},{"start":10174.295,"end":10180.639,"text":"然後這樣子就規避掉了法律保留原則的拘束也剝奪掉了這個當事人的這個同意權這個憲判裡面這兩個核心就以其他法律這麼籠統和空泛就全部都剝奪掉了所以這幾個字就免除了所有的這個"},{"start":10195.388,"end":10210.92,"text":"這個就等於是罷網條款當中的罪罷網了這不會贏的這不會贏的所以其他法律其他法律講的是什麼我們要界定清楚所以啊我們這個在第10條有清楚的在"},{"start":10213.141,"end":10237.488,"text":"來係數來規定沒有啦我們現在建議就是說要限縮啦要限縮在第十條第一項規定的才可以啦這是我們現在討論我們認為可能比較限縮嚴謹一點的啦你不可以用其他法律四個字就要來全部請求走了不行啦我們用第十條那等於對啦我們有修正版本來我們再"},{"start":10238.368,"end":10266.906,"text":"要限縮不可以照你們行政院的版本最後一個就是說以重大公共的利益的為名你們現在是說只有學術研究案機關研究可以來申請資料可是你們硬是在後面又講說如果這個有產生商業利益者要提撥一定比例回饋金納入全民健保的基金所以你們到底是要要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要"},{"start":10268.749,"end":10294.07,"text":"你們明的是說只允許學術做研究 機關做研究暗的是說不小心有商業利潤的產出要交回課金 到底是怎樣因為大家都知道醫藥界都一樣啦 全世界都一樣產業界常以包裝產學合作在內的各種商業導向的研究課題"},{"start":10295.551,"end":10319.833,"text":"包裝成特別重要的公益性的學術研究啦事實上學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上也免除不了要商業利用啊如果說你不要在這裡扭扭捏捏在這裡犧牲我沒有要商業利用喔啊你裡面這裡什麼你如果商業利用你會叫錢"},{"start":10321.144,"end":10348.284,"text":"不如你是不是要考慮你的商業利用要更嚴謹的把關要設定的資格要更嚴謹不能腐爛然後納管好好的納管既然你們都其實有一個繳納回饋金的機制顯然你們是允許他再利用的為什麼不光明正大的把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障"},{"start":10349.085,"end":10362.417,"text":"對不對 你讓我們資訊自主的保障的措施 規範的更嚴謹那他的公共重要的公益性把關的更嚴謹大方的接受人民來檢驗 不要遮遮掩掩 然後放鬆了因為一般學術研究 半個金三半個金寬"},{"start":10370.905,"end":10396.517,"text":"然後讓他通過然後再偷偷拿去商業利用然後反而不利於我們人民的權利的保障也不利於在有沒有腐爛的在使用我們這個個資健保資料庫的這個有沒有腐爛不利於把關嘛但事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的這個健全發展所以在這種狀況裡面啊"},{"start":10399.929,"end":10417.855,"text":"包委員我簡單回報一下因為這個在所有的研究裡面其實臨床試驗也是一種研究而你去看那個各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢就是說癌症的病人錢需要臨床試驗其實能夠幫這跟我講的有什麼相關那臨床試驗裡面後續就有產生可能會有產生3A的"},{"start":10425.277,"end":10430.119,"text":"所以我就叫你說納管啊所以這個法很周全嘛我是要講納管啊你今天明的是不允許啊你明的是不允許 暗的是允許他允許他暗的你明的是寬寬的寬鬆的把關學術研究然後你就允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去商業利用那為什麼不讓這些廠商嚴謹的商業利用"},{"start":10453.71,"end":10478.507,"text":"嚴格的把關 讓人民有這個退出權 更資訊權然後你對他的學術研究讓他更嚴謹 這個我們贊成可以來說清楚沒關係 那我再來再次問你 你們現在最這個觸及率最大的APP是健保快遺通嘛 對不對 因為疫情的使用那我們來講退出權 你們有沒有可能在那個健保快遺通的APP上面建置一個退出權的機制這樣比較方便"},{"start":10481.833,"end":10510.221,"text":"這個聽聽健保署跟委員報告因為我們的健保的APP是綁人那所以這個剛剛委員的方向是可以研議但是那個代理的部分可能因為我們現在那個APP未成年的APP是可以代理由他的那個監護人來代理查詢所以那個代理的部分是不是也從APP就可以使用還是需要所以原則上你們是同意的可以朝這個方向好 謝謝"},{"start":10512.349,"end":10514.812,"text":"那接下來請王振旭委員發言好 謝謝主席我們還是請邱部長好 有請邱部長"},{"start":10534.844,"end":10560.596,"text":"委員好部長好今天我們要來審查健保資料管理條例所以這邊有三個重點來跟部長一起討論一下第一個重點就是其實當初是用衛生福利資料整合的部分來想要做探討所以如何能夠針對法制化相關的衛生福利資料整合部分也希望能夠有機會來稍微討論一下"},{"start":10562.097,"end":10588.143,"text":"那第二部分就是健保資料管理條例我們有一些修改的建議等一下也跟大家一起來討論是請部長這邊先了解一下那第三個就是改善現行資料可進性的問題有關於這個衛生福利資料的直接法制法的形成其實我們也知道在113年3月份的時候預告是要制定"},{"start":10588.963,"end":10609.535,"text":"衛生福利資料的一些管理條例送到行政院以後行政院就根據當初憲判制的一些要求來做相關的限縮不過我們也知道其實這麼多好的數據如何能夠讓全民來使用"},{"start":10610.815,"end":10629.108,"text":"來增進全民的健康福利是非常非常的重要那如果我們今天討論的是有關於這個健保的相關資料的話這是比較相對可惜的因為我們從之前資科中心的架構裡面就可以發現基本上是有包括基礎資料庫"},{"start":10630.609,"end":10646.803,"text":"健保署 健康署 機關署 還有社家署很多很多的資料事實上是可以經過統計處的處理以後讓資訊處能夠在法規跟治安相關的這些處理之下能夠讓他做一個很好的統計應用"},{"start":10648.004,"end":10674.179,"text":"那當然這裡面還必須要有一個應用管理的審議會這邊是用一個審議會的方式來讓這個資料的應用過程當中是可以讓民眾很安心讓這個資料可以發揮最大的作用所以針對這一部分未來如果衛生福利資料整合的過程當中如果能夠讓主管機關資料的使用者還有資料提供者都更有保障"},{"start":10675.236,"end":10679.128,"text":"那這邊不知道部長有沒有法制化的時程列入規劃"},{"start":10680.766,"end":10704.171,"text":"我想謝謝委員因為剛開始光靠衛生福利資料後來經過多次的討論覺得還是先說在健保資料來應用上次的宪判另外有很多的健康的衛生福利相關的資料的確我們都是有一個引擎的方式在這個部分後續"},{"start":10705.831,"end":10732.979,"text":"後續可能還是持續以這樣的方式來先以這樣的方式來管理那如果委員你有什麼建議我想我們都可以來改善的更周全好因為我們在經過下午的討論主條討論以後我們會提供一個附帶決議也希望能夠提供相關的法源作為以後討論的基礎好這個是第一個部分第二個部分就是有關於這個條例的一些"},{"start":10735.78,"end":10756.589,"text":"修法的建議包括說剛剛也討論過蠻多執議會那剛剛也知道之前其實就有審議會這樣的架構所以我們希望在執議跟審議當中可以有一個更好針對於這次大法官認為他必須要有一個獨立審查的機制那這個審議會這樣的"},{"start":10759.89,"end":10774.803,"text":"名稱或者是它的架構應該更有機會去得到社會的認同這是第一個部分那第二個部分我們也希望在這個審議會的組成裡面要有並有團體的代表那第三個部分就是將來"},{"start":10776.744,"end":10792.191,"text":"當然會有一個審查小組來做一個相關的審查的流程還有依據SOP來執行那這個部分我們希望外部專家裡面要有醫界的代表來協助讓整個審查更周全"},{"start":10792.851,"end":10811.269,"text":"那最後就是有關於申請目的外利用的這個資料應該要盡量的來公開那第一部分就是有關於為什麼我們要把這個自議會建議改成為審議會我們也知道其實剛剛有提到我目前的這個執行過程裡面已經有應用管理的審議會所以"},{"start":10814.851,"end":10832.135,"text":"這個審議會其實就是一個既有可以執行的部分所以如果能夠用審議會這樣的組成跟名稱的話期待就是更能夠符合憲法法庭對獨立監督機制的要求這部分部長不知道認不認同這個可以來討論第一個就是剛剛非常謝謝王委員在剛剛討論"},{"start":10841.959,"end":10860.051,"text":"提案說明的時候方面有提到或者幫忙解答就是說它是獨立監督機制所以要有這種機制那機制這個部分在衛福部上面當然有一個現在要成立一個個資保護委員會這個部分剛剛"},{"start":10861.872,"end":10888.768,"text":"那個主管機關也有報告過已經送到出去司法法治委員會那個的部分那我們這一本身衛福部本身就會有一個剛剛您提到的那個審查等一下有提到的審查小組那審查小組就有審查的功能那如果有矛盾的話有比較需要討論的話再送到自議會來大家討論"},{"start":10891.254,"end":10915.564,"text":"所以也是有審議的兩個合起來就有審議的成分在裡面但是就是說是不是會更Critical一點因為案子很多不可能執意會一直審是由審查小組然後我們審查小組的委員有24個專家寫者當然也有來自醫界我們會按照他的那個屬性"},{"start":10916.804,"end":10938.639,"text":"去分配幾位專家去審這個就是審查的如果有疑惑的話就會到諮詢委員會大概這樣的模式請委員參考了解 因為我們也知道其實在邱部長上任之前也在教學醫院"},{"start":10939.58,"end":10965.867,"text":"醫學中心擔任很多重要職務包括很多IRB的申請案件其實相關的部分在執行的時候我們施請辦法希望能夠把這些什麼情形下需要一般審查什麼情形下可以用簡易審查的這些量能的方式來調控我想我們會利用下午時間再來討論不過我想大家可以再多考量有關於這個名稱的部分"},{"start":10966.607,"end":10991.555,"text":"那下一個問題就是有關於病友團體我們目前看到這個院版部分是沒有明定病友團體的代表那這個相對比較可惜因為其實我們是指健康資料就是健保資料所有健保我們關心的群眾都是病友所以我們也很期待能夠把這個病友團體的代表也能夠納進來"},{"start":10993.175,"end":11016.59,"text":"因為我們知道他們就是非常重要的這些關係人如果能夠把他們納進來的話也更能夠符合大眾的期待那其實現行的健保會委裡面也有病友團體代表這部分也麻煩部長是不是也能夠來加一步考量讓這個病友代表能夠靈魂進到這個這個我們基本上是支持"},{"start":11017.37,"end":11043.852,"text":"因為本源就是用人選團體代表來包含那如果要明文定的話我們也支持好 謝謝那下一個問題就是有關於如何能夠讓我們這個結果公開還有審議以後的案件都能夠有機會透過目前的方式讓民眾多了解除了已經有"},{"start":11044.853,"end":11069.569,"text":"做了研究也把這個成果公開的系統的同時當案件經過了審查或審議或質疑以後他們還沒有執行之前已經得到同意可以執行的這些內容就有計劃來做適當的公開讓民眾也知道說未來有哪一些案子會透過"},{"start":11070.69,"end":11086.967,"text":"目前可以核准的方式来执行我相信对民众的这种安全感或者是对于他们如何配合会有更好的一个可行性所以我们也期待能够有这个方式来做修订或者是再来补强那这部分部长"},{"start":11088.308,"end":11108.681,"text":"我想讓民眾安心是政府應該做的責任我們會在這方面把它做得更周全剛剛提的審查小組這個部分我們本來就有議界的代表這沒有問題第二個就是公開這個也一直公開不管是最新的計畫剛剛看到的那個螢幕還有最新的成果都是公開透明"},{"start":11109.502,"end":11129.857,"text":"好 因為我們目前看到行政院版的第14條的第三項裡面是有相關的這個要求不過針對公開的部分將來在做施行辦法的制定的時候也能夠把這些這個我們可以來修正文字好 再麻煩你再來就是有關於現行資料的可進性的這個部分"},{"start":11130.678,"end":11149.877,"text":"因為我們知道現在很多在不管是透過已經核准的研究計畫要執行的時候他都很辛苦只在一個很有限的空間裡面去做相關資料統整以後才能夠吸出來做處理"},{"start":11151.098,"end":11171.297,"text":"那我們也了解這個是不得已的措施因為我們要讓這個資訊能夠在最安全的情形下做後續的處理不過其實我們很多的這個使用者的心聲大家也應該都聽過那其實整體科技跟資訊資通訊的技術發展的非常快"},{"start":11172.097,"end":11191.838,"text":"所以我們這部條例如果通過的話希望將來在資訊隱私與安全還有資料的可用性的部分呢可不可以有更好的資料使用的可進性能夠更平衡的做法這個未來也期待我們有一些作為可以做整體的改善"},{"start":11193.049,"end":11221.215,"text":"好 這個是應該來一直來精進的是怎麼樣平衡的做法好 那很期待我們今天下午經過討論以後可以讓整部的這個法案可以順利的去得到大家的同意當然最期待就是透過這個法律的處置以後讓民眾非常安心的知道在促進所有台灣人民的健康的照護的過程當中這些資訊是被非常"},{"start":11223.475,"end":11237.142,"text":"堅實的去守護大家資訊的安全那我們就下午繼續來討論 謝謝謝謝委員的指教 謝謝好 謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長有請邱部長"},{"start":11252.85,"end":11277.763,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長這個新冠病毒在這幾週內就是說整個大家感覺說新冠病毒這個疫情好像有點升溫那我知道說衛福部針對這一部分你們應該也有做一些評估那確實每一週的這個確診的病例都一直在增加當中那我今天針對就是說我們確診的這個患者有的可能"},{"start":11282.825,"end":11300.152,"text":"如果求助這個西醫的話可能就會給這個抗病毒的藥那有一些是不適合吃這種抗病毒藥或者是可能也許他就是不適應或者不適合嘛那原本我們在那個這個新冠疫情"},{"start":11301.852,"end":11324.083,"text":"當時我們就有提供這個清罐一號那我想請教就是說衛福部這邊有沒有針對就是說我們這個疫情升溫然後我們清罐一號是由公費來支付是的我想當時的情況是因為有特別預算那特別預算就會針對所有防疫的相關的"},{"start":11325.827,"end":11349.826,"text":"措施作為 給他補物資 或者是應該給的鼓勵作為 那現在這個部分我也非常同意委員所提的這個民眾真的有他的需要性是不是我們就來研議他的可能從經費來源 他的必要性跟經費來源來研議"},{"start":11352.228,"end":11379.676,"text":"其實民眾如果像現在的這個他如果確診之後其實他的症狀有的就是類似感冒可是他可能就是真的確診了那有的他可能吃西藥的話可能會有一些副作用他就求助於中醫那中醫的話其實西醫抗病毒的藥我們有幾副那中醫的這個新冠新冠1號是不是也可以"},{"start":11380.456,"end":11393.823,"text":"公費這邊來支付因為我認為就是說如果用公費來支付的話其實他的費用其實他的預算應該不會很多那有的現在得到這個"},{"start":11395.824,"end":11410.396,"text":"病毒如果確定之後有的就把它當成一般的感冒有的就真的如果不舒服的話就求助西醫或中醫有的是給抗病毒的藥抗病毒的藥我們現在是有公費支付"},{"start":11411.417,"end":11433.025,"text":"中藥的部分中醫的部分清冠1號是不是也可以由這個公費這邊來支付我覺得這樣因為有的民眾他就是不適合吃這個這個西藥抗病毒抗病毒的這種西藥嘛所以我希望就是說部長針對這部分你們是不是也要去研議那因為如果說"},{"start":11434.145,"end":11462.447,"text":"這個每一週這個確診的病例都一直在增加我是希望就是說部長能夠盡速將這一部分既然大家覺得說新冠1號這個對於這個新冠病毒是有用的那是不是也可以納入我們公費的支付公費的支付當然就是要有預算的來源那我們來看看預算還有沒有這種第一個我們當然請專家來評估是不是要仿照"},{"start":11464.079,"end":11479.221,"text":"過去在疫情期間這樣的一個處理方式我們當然要站在人民的需要的立場來考量這個情況要得到國際間很多的肯定國人也是"},{"start":11480.342,"end":11495.259,"text":"也是對這個相當的認同所以在沒有你剛剛講的沒有用達到那個用抗病毒藥這個標準裡面是不是在有它的需要性那這個部分我們會從專業考量跟經費的考量"},{"start":11497.121,"end":11517.981,"text":"我馬上立即來研議我請部長就盡數啦因為不要讓這個疫情這樣子再一直燒下去之後然後我們現在又擔心整個醫療量能又不足因為部長我剛剛有看到你回應就是說有委員有特別質詢你有關急診醫師的事情那部長有特別提到就是說我們又要投入42億"},{"start":11519.362,"end":11547.171,"text":"就是投入這個從5月1號開始5月1號嘛那我想請教就是說如果既然投入這個經費有效的話那當然我們就是要多投入這個經費更多 改善整個工作環境是啊是啊所以就像之前我們一直在講說那個護理人員一直在流失那護理人員不夠那關病床那現在變成說我們的第一線的這個急診醫師這個"},{"start":11549.792,"end":11568.292,"text":"從年初到現在離職了60幾位那預計到年底可能會有100多位就是從這個急診這邊就離開那如果是這樣子的話真的是非常可怕另外今天又有人跟我說因為急診醫師的不夠所以有的醫院他不收轉診的患者那會這樣子嗎"},{"start":11572.406,"end":11594.801,"text":"我想區域聯訪是很重要的啦我們第一個當然不希望我們希望各科的醫師都能夠在他的崗位上發揮專業政府也絕對用最大的力量來創造改善更好的一個環境不管是醫護、醫事人員都一樣那當然有這樣的趨勢我們會非常的警惕"},{"start":11595.421,"end":11600.442,"text":"沒有現在大家是擔心整個醫療崩壞所以真的我希望部長從之前我們講到的這個護理師的這個缺護理師那現在又急診醫師又離開那其實有很多的專科醫師譬如說大家會覺得說兒科醫師也不足那現在看到急診醫師也離開大家會擔心所以如果部長"},{"start":11621.747,"end":11637.281,"text":"照你講的我們投入經費是有用的話那當然我們就是要投入更多把這些人留在原本的工作崗位上那如果只是投入經費那沒有改善整個工作環境的話其實我覺得你投入更多的經費是"},{"start":11638.442,"end":11665.195,"text":"當然當然都要做啊這個要多元化多成當然我們也希望他的負擔不要太重所以我們才會一直推推展這個分級醫療就好像COVID新冠的話如果你是一般感冒的我們有分嘛有即使急關水一直發很多的圖片如果你是一般的感冒那當然希望還是到基層診所不要就衝到急診那真的是會造成急診的壓力很大那當然如果你有"},{"start":11665.715,"end":11688.615,"text":"重症或你是危險的比較具有危險性高的那當然還是到急診OK啦如果只要有分流一定可以做得更好這個我們在去前面三年的防疫期間是已經建立一個很好的分流分級部長我想請教就是說你這個我是看新聞就是說你要投入42億嘛那你們預計會有什麼樣的效果"},{"start":11691.277,"end":11709.403,"text":"應該要有效果你才會想說要投入這個經費下去嗎那你們預計會有什麼樣的效果可以把這個急診醫師留在原本的這個急診室我是希望你聽到你就是說投入經費是有成效的我想"},{"start":11714.423,"end":11728.292,"text":"其實也不只急診啦 急診科其他科我們都要留住人力啦這是我必須要講的因為各科都很重要那當然集中症 所當其衝這個我們要做那我們提供的經費我們健保署會"},{"start":11730.874,"end":11741.661,"text":"一定會特別的綁他的待遇的提升啦不是說拖下去給醫院可是有的就直接給醫院醫院不一定會發到這個我們一定監測而且是因為現在五月嘛可能要到六七月才這個署長講解跟委員報告剛剛提到說這個轉診的問題事實上是不會拒絕轉診不過呢"},{"start":11758.241,"end":11782.158,"text":"這個早上那個新聞我去特別了解在嘉義地區他們是希望呢這個有要做取酸素的符合適應症的再轉不要是中風就轉這樣會讓那個醫院的那個嘉義長庚的急診會崩壞啦所以其實是大家要有區域聯防各自有必要的才轉診而不是中風就轉因為他主要是做取血酸這樣也會讓這個那個"},{"start":11785.34,"end":11811.083,"text":"這個核心醫院的這個神經科醫師疲於奔命所以這個其實是需要大家一起合作那至於我們所投入的這個今年會投入42億的急重症它不是只解決那個急診的待遇問題它連那個加護病房啦還有這個一般的急性一般病床的護理費都提升就是希望這個後端的這個收床要能夠暢通才能夠"},{"start":11811.724,"end":11825.229,"text":"改善這個第一線的急診的環境因為急診擔心的就是沒辦法住院自留當然也有一部分是提升急診的護理人員的這個支付標準還有這個醫師的診察費那這個我們會去監督要落實到人員薪資的調整"},{"start":11829.83,"end":11846.094,"text":"好那我希望就是說衛福部真的針對這一部分你們要嚴格管控因為很多其實他們會覺得說即使衛福部錢下去了可是不一定到所有的醫護手上這個我們希望說你們要真的確實去做到"},{"start":11846.494,"end":11869.265,"text":"另外部長我想請教就是說韓國在今年四月份就有針對國人非常喜歡到日本購買這個陳藥就是止痛藥那這個韓國他們在四月份就有全面禁止攜帶含有鎮定劑的藥品入境"},{"start":11870.405,"end":11888.938,"text":"那這個東西這個止痛藥也是國人到日本非常喜歡買的非常喜歡購買那當然就是說這個自己用這個沒問題自己使用因為我們有規定數量自己使用沒有問題那現在我們就看到在網路上也有在販賣"},{"start":11891.187,"end":11906.433,"text":"當然就是說網路上的販賣你看不出來他是在賣這樣子的1V1的這個止痛藥那他就是用這個兔子來做代表那這個熟門熟路的人就知道說他到底在賣什麼東西啦那這個網站在販賣這樣的一個止痛藥也賣了這個10年左右那我想請教部長因為"},{"start":11916.357,"end":11939.506,"text":"既然我們覺得說這個含有鎮定劑或者是含有這個Codein的這樣的一個藥品是禁止的那自己用沒有問題那如果說在網路上販賣的話因為它如果是用代號的話你根本也抓不到說實在的啦那我不知道說部長你們有沒有針對這一部分你們有沒有什麼樣的因應方式我想現在目前這個藥EVE的確"},{"start":11945.243,"end":11968.554,"text":"有些民眾是很習慣使用那它的成分當然韓國因為禁止它其中裡面的一個成分所以就禁止帶進去那台灣在它的成分裡面都還不是在管制藥品所以基本上是可以讓它帶進來那至於說是不是網路上各方面這個部分食藥署要不要幫忙回答一下"},{"start":11970.092,"end":11992.169,"text":"跟委員報告那如果說民眾自行攜帶進來的話有相關海關的規定但是自行攜帶自用是可以但是自行攜帶的藥不可以到網路上販售如果拿去網路上販售的話違反藥事法27條的部分那會涉及到處分大概13萬元以上200萬元以下的罰款那另外有可能涉及因為這些藥都沒有在國內申請產業登記所以它也涉及到意圖販賣或販賣這個"},{"start":11994.27,"end":12021.902,"text":"偽劣禁藥的部分那可以要是法83條的話除以7年以下有期徒刑或者是併科5千萬以下的罰金那另外有關於委員剛所提到這個非法在網路上販售的部分那食藥署這邊會跟衛生局每年都有例行有計畫去巡查這些網站還有這些平台那如果已經查獲的話我們會進行相關的採取所以你們曾經有查獲這樣的一個在網路上販賣我們認為就是說不可以在網路上販賣的藥品嗎"},{"start":12023.243,"end":12032.929,"text":"報告保援有 有這樣的記錄那我們都會以適當的這個藥食法 或者要移送 或者是以相關以這個非法藥商的方式來處分 以上好 那如果類似這樣的一個狀況 你們怎麼處理"},{"start":12035.351,"end":12059.22,"text":"報委員如果說我們查獲到確實他是有販售行為的話第一個他違反鑰匙法27條因為他不是藥商他是個人的方式那另外就看到他賣的藥品如果是非經我國辦理財產登記的話就違反鑰匙法20條或22條這未經許可而輸入這個部分就剛跟委員報告他是以涉及鑰匙法83條的部分會移送那他最終的話是以這個判處7年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":12059.56,"end":12084.062,"text":"那部長我今天要跟你講的就是說我們在網路隨時都可以看到在網路上販賣藥品那我們知道說這是不可以的那確實就是有這樣的一個狀況發生嘛那我希望就是說因為如果讓這些藥品隨時可以在網路上購買得到其實我覺得這樣子"},{"start":12086.063,"end":12109.732,"text":"對我們衛福部來講就已經明文規定就是說不行藥品不可以在網路上販賣那他還是有其他的方式在網路上販賣的話我覺得你們應該要有要有方式來處理這樣的一個網路販賣藥品的這種事實確實就是在網路蝦皮上面就是有在賣嘛所以我希望就是說針對這部分你們真的要確實積極去處理"},{"start":12116.595,"end":12136.909,"text":"這個是真的事實就是擺在眼前隨時你在網路上面就可以查得到我們還是建立民眾能夠身體不舒服還是能夠救治對就是說國人真的到日本非常喜歡買成藥這個應該衛福部應該你都知道可能到那個"},{"start":12138.57,"end":12163.96,"text":"那個超市或者是藥局大量的購買這個止痛藥還是什麼藥品可能都買的非常多那當然我們就是要讓所有的民眾要有一些正確的觀念如果說真的身體不舒服你就是要到醫院或診所去看醫生啦那而不是只有吃陳藥所以有的陳藥是會上癮的所以我們希望衛福部針對這部分也要給國人有一些正確的一個知識好不好來查辦好好謝謝"},{"start":12168.542,"end":12172.484,"text":"好 謝謝黃秀芳委員發言 接下來請盧憲伊委員發言這是有請部長有請邱部長"},{"start":12191.465,"end":12207.983,"text":"今天就針對我們原住民的知情同意這個部分再跟你多商討一下原建法我一直在說每次都看到你還會強調說我們原住民健康法已經再過幾天就會公布兩年了112年的6月21號"},{"start":12210.666,"end":12239.65,"text":"那它的第二條的第二項有說要有專責單位那其實我們在講這個知情同意的時候其實專責單位就很重要因為我們常常都說其實我們是國與國的關係陳水扁總統說過因為我們每一個種族是一個國家所以其實你到任何一個種族的時候如果你完全不知道他們的文化的時候你要怎麼去知情同意呢這是一個基本的概念在這裡所以為了不要讓你疲於奔命我覺得專責單位應該要早一點出來"},{"start":12240.33,"end":12263.031,"text":"我一直說希望能夠有10級以上的成績讓這個原住民健康是要未來或是或許有更好的一個名詞的話部長這邊可以去想一下那就針對這幾年還沒有之前同意這些法規還沒有來的時候我們曾經遭遇到什麼樣的問題我們來review一下在2007年我們馬街醫院有做一個口水的檢體"},{"start":12264.352,"end":12279.241,"text":"後來被認定是他違反醫學倫理那2010年有加拿大的人權組織發現不是台灣人發現是加拿大人權組織發現我們高一有去販賣所謂的痛風基因的專利再下一個"},{"start":12281.069,"end":12309.591,"text":"那後來也看到一些報導是說甚至有一些國外已經我們原住民的基因庫應該有阿美、泰雅、布農、盧凱、排灣這些我們都不知道的事情國外已經有這些資料所以我覺得今天這個議題所謂的知情同意其實那個層級要拉得很高部長你心裡面要有一些心理建設這樣我們才有往下談的一個所謂的標準那所以這次我有提了三個修正案"},{"start":12310.311,"end":12335.232,"text":"可是我們因為我們這次的練習單位沒有原民會所以我希望以後我的表如果今天沒有辦法審到的話我的條文可以保留讓我們再行協商大概第5條所謂的健保諮詢議會我希望有原住民主代表第7條的部分就是說特定的管理辦法裡面如果是研究原住民民主為目的的應該取得原住民主同意之外呢"},{"start":12335.892,"end":12356.872,"text":"應該由中央原住民委員會的會同本條例的主管機關來訂定第15條也就是說它產生的善意利益呢應該納入原住民主綜合發展基金這樣的一個原則啦那我想先知道說部長你對FPIC所謂的自請同意這個部分你了解多少"},{"start":12358.775,"end":12386.914,"text":"知情同意的精神無論在哪一個地方都是應該要堅守的原則第一個我們先講到F就是Free我們一直在想我們先講到一個基本的層面就是說這個Free我們常常都是想起來像是免費 其實不是它是一個所謂的它不是被強迫的希望是這個民主能夠自己決定的所以我想"},{"start":12388.415,"end":12398.18,"text":"這個FPIC有一個最主要的原則就是希望這是個民主自覺所以這個部分應該在我們在之前同意的時候應該納入的最重要的概念因為我們常常會"},{"start":12400.97,"end":12430.232,"text":"沒有一個文化的概念的時候會不自主的會陷入那個偏見那其實我最常見的看到的一些錯誤是什麼呢你在做決定的時候常常就是說會把原住民主當作是一個他只是一個參與者他並不是一個所謂的決定者所以這個部分要去規避第二個就是說真正在做結論的時候常常是政府在做決定可是並不是原住民自己本身所以這個部分應該也要把它納入進去"},{"start":12431.073,"end":12450.916,"text":"然後呢在現在我們在做一些健康政策的議題的時候原住民常常都是只是被告知而不是所謂的參與所以我又回到前面那個也就是說我們我們沒有一個專責機構的時候我會覺得部長你會疲於奔命我們我們的官員也會很辛苦在做這個部分"},{"start":12451.477,"end":12478.491,"text":"因為他根本就不理解所謂的文化的細膩在哪裡那所以常常在講說inform的時候知情同意的時候其實有兩個最主要的關鍵也就是你所使用的語言跟文化的那個導入在哪裡比如說我自己本身是排灣族、陸海族的族群我要去阿美族的時候其實我會特別小心因為他是屬於母系社會我講了什麼話會發生什麼樣的錯誤那我在知情同意的時候我是要規避"},{"start":12479.671,"end":12506.772,"text":"要去規避哪些文字讓他們覺得沒有受到尊重其實這個部分其實是很瑣碎而且是很細膩的所以我希望部長這邊你可能要去上所謂的文化課程其實每次都要講文化敏感度到底文化敏感度是什麼有沒有一個所謂的平易的一個標準在哪裡所以這是我要跟你說的知情統一裡面就是要"},{"start":12507.552,"end":12524.665,"text":"使用正確的語言跟文化導入那其實最常發現過敏的是在哪裡呢就在諮商的時候比如說諮商你會認為諮商它是一個end goal就是它是最主要的一個所謂的我們大家認為我只要有諮商就夠了其實"},{"start":12525.525,"end":12546.601,"text":"不是 其實真正的 你要把它當諮商當作是一個複雜的一個文化的一個process所以你當進入這樣一個領域的時候你才會知道說你到底在諮商什麼你到底要 你要的諮商同意 知情同意是什麼所以每一個族群 甚至新入到16個族的時候可能以後那個表格啊"},{"start":12547.341,"end":12558.194,"text":"可能都會不太一樣 會有一些些微的差距我希望部長這邊要有一些概念以後在處理原住民議題的時候就會有一些基本的認識這樣我是給部長這樣建議 可以嗎"},{"start":12565.144,"end":12583.092,"text":"我們會注重這樣的一個建議最後就是我之前跟你講過我們原住民公費生就是有一些就是大概有一兩百個就是大概還沒有考上醫師執照的這些我之前有提過波波醫師的這個部分就是"},{"start":12584.873,"end":12598.72,"text":"我們會認為國家很重視波波的醫師的這些以後在台灣執業的這些問題可是這些養成計畫的這些醫學生畢業了以後或者是沒有考上執照或者是在訓練當中可是沒有人"},{"start":12599.58,"end":12618.854,"text":"進一步去關心他們所以我覺得如果現在已經造成比如說我們的急診醫學那一課四大課都四大接控的時候其實這些你曾經被國家訓練的這些醫生你是不是應該定期的比如說每班你是每幾個月一季一季的來跟他們做個座談會看他們在考試的"},{"start":12620.015,"end":12646.517,"text":"資格取得上面他有遇到什麼樣的困難然後給你協助而不是一直看到說你們都是只有在討論波波醫師的問題就是養成計畫這些我們所有各個族群的醫學生畢業的學生呢也是需要國家的幫忙所以我就說又再回到那個問題就是沒有專責機構所以沒有去專人在處理這些問題的時候這些醫學生畢業的學生呢就會很像就在平壤中的大海沒有人去care"},{"start":12647.859,"end":12666.543,"text":"包委員這個你提的這些養成的醫師我們真的非常關心因為如果能夠他養成出來能夠服務的話一般他們都會在當地服務的比較久所以這個部分我還是希望我們解決所以我想我們應該來關心應該來關心而且一定會積極去關心好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝陸先生與委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":12689.551,"end":12702.556,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席在場的委員先進列席的政務機關總統 官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體 記者 女士先生有請我們邱部長請邱部長也請統計處的李處長統計處李處長委員好部長好 那今天因為有一個個人資料保護完理委員會的事務組的組長直接請他過來請組長好 很快 來我們馬上看今天最新最新的"},{"start":12720.549,"end":12743.522,"text":"史上最大中國失事一筆個資不設防權外洩還有看到台灣的資料庫他們爆料者說從可以建立所有中國公民的行為社會經濟資料其中TWDB是台灣小款資料庫部長有沒有看到這樣的新聞爆料有今天有大家有討論過有討論過了你們的結論是什麼這跟你們之前有一位前主秘涉及泄密有沒有關係"},{"start":12746.246,"end":12774.174,"text":"有沒有 這個可能要再查證喔你們預定多少才會查目前剪掉 還在偵辦中目前剪掉偵辦中 這個在剪掉偵辦中那這個咧上面今天才爆料的咧有沒有開始啟動了有沒有兩個單位在處理了有沒有去查一查可能是從哪裡出去的這個資料庫不見得是從衛福部不見得是從健保資料庫出去的但是因為前面發生的這個健保資料庫外洩所以我們也很疑惑說現在中國的"},{"start":12775.373,"end":12795.967,"text":"人民他們的各自外洩還包含了包含台灣的資料庫是不是趕快查部長要責任哪個單位你們目前這個檢調在查嘛對不對你們是主動的趕快去看看說這個資料跟他們所說的台灣資料庫有沒有關聯有沒有人可以來處理這檢調應該會調查"},{"start":12800.901,"end":12811.15,"text":"你們自己要趕快去查說現在今天爆料的這個台灣資料庫會不會跟你們之前的電寶資料庫有關聯是不是這樣子我們是不是資訊處這邊了解嗎這個我們可以去協同速發部我們資訊處協同速發部好 那麼就拜託部長責成資訊處協同速發部趕快去查一下"},{"start":12823.38,"end":12850.027,"text":"到底這裡面的資料庫是什麼會不會跟你們之前洩出去的健保資料庫有關聯好不好謝謝好那今天呢我們資料庫先問到這來往下看介師今天有關於貧窮線的檢討雖然不是今天的主題但是我看了一下其實呢目前說有女性在擔任低收跟中低收的有三成是單親媽媽按照目前的算法我就不再贅述這個所謂的可自備所得的中位數的六成為最低生活費"},{"start":12850.748,"end":12871.802,"text":"那其中就是低收那麼如果是1.5倍的就是中低收其實呢有很多單親媽媽困在什麼譬如說娘家有一棟房子我常常在處理20年前我在屏東縣政府我就在處理這個事情了那麼現在民團說貧窮人口目前實際可以符合的只有2%實際上要6% 部長你覺得呢我們目前國家的貧窮人口是2%還是6%沒有辦法判斷我們那個"},{"start":12878.635,"end":12897.285,"text":"我跟那個委員報告一下所謂的話平均人口佔2%的話他是已經經過那一種資產的然後6%的話呢是主計處公布的主計處公布的我們這個收入的是6%但是取掉你們有資產能力的就只剩2%所以這6%跟2%這樣來的好來部長我跟您講你知不知道現在我們國家有多少人在繳稅所得稅你有繳吧"},{"start":12908.547,"end":12932.455,"text":"你覺得你是在比較多的那一邊還是比較少的那一邊有繳稅的有繳所得稅的比較多還是沒有繳所得稅的比較多你猜猜看應該我是算一般啦過去我不是說你所得高不高啦我說台灣有人不用繳所得稅的有要繳所得稅的你是屬於要繳所得的那一邊你就你這邊的人比較多還是比較少要繳所得稅的"},{"start":12935.602,"end":12949.781,"text":"比較多曾經在108年要繳所得稅的不繳所得稅的超過一半現在大概維持在四成七八左右不繳所得稅的從過去的26.51 94年的26年免繳所得稅的比拉到這麼高這說明什麼"},{"start":12952.076,"end":12972.829,"text":"台灣的所得分配 財務分配在惡化所得分配比資產惡化的更快所以為什麼我們查出來所得它是屬於中低收可能低收的有6%但是拿掉資產之後只剩2%我們台灣的所得分配的惡化程度比資產分布的惡化程度更快"},{"start":12973.689,"end":12995.99,"text":"那請問你今天我要維持生活我是靠我的資產而生活還是靠我的所得而生活是靠所得嘛所以我才說如果按照目前這個規定算出來目前如果要走足跡種畜的我們的中低收跟低收的標準的遠高於目前我們核定的標準人數啦就是因為你們把資產算進去之後我們就排除了"},{"start":12996.721,"end":13014.911,"text":"但是就像我說的很多的單親媽媽她沒有辦法靠娘家的移動房子的遺產繼承權她來養孩子啊所以我們的貧窮線造成我們的社會福利的給予啊就有問題往下看所以到底要先推估貧窮人口的比例還先畫定貧窮線先有蛋還是先有雞你們要先推估我們多少貧窮人口再來畫這條貧窮線還是先畫出貧窮線自然貧窮人口的比例又出來是先有蛋還是先有雞"},{"start":13025.595,"end":13042.884,"text":"很難回答對不對按照我們公共機關要依法兩個都要考量說得很好但是目前我們法律的規定寫在條文裡面的你先必須劃出貧窮線的定義然後呢再推出貧窮線的人口但是當你發現這已經跟現實脫離很遠的時候你要不要定期的檢討要不要定期檢討會不會要重新檢討你貧窮線的定義為什麼我們貧窮定義是用什麼是用可自備所得的六成作為"},{"start":13055.89,"end":13075.735,"text":"貧窮線的標準 這個有沒有道理有沒有道理 寫在法律裡面可不可以改 部長可不可以改我們貧窮線的定義可不可以討論可不可以檢討 當然可以嘛我們很多社會福利的 包括我們現在的調整都有一個根據我們的通膨的指數每四年檢討一次 有沒有"},{"start":13077.008,"end":13094.165,"text":"有沒有 有嘛 對不對所以未來我請衛務部趕快檢討我們貧窮縣的法定定義它的機制要不要訂入一個定期檢討譬如說每四年還是每多少年我們檢討一次每四年檢討一次或者說通貨膨脹超過4%的時候我們就檢討一次不要讓這個貧窮縣變成造成我們真的貧窮人口陷於絕境部長可以嗎"},{"start":13103.059,"end":13124.481,"text":"往這方面來修法好不好我們立法院我們也會寫出我們的版本但是我們認為過去以來我長期在地方政府遇到的這些想要救救不了的人就是定在我們的貧窮性的定義數十年來如一日啊從我在地方縣政府20年前當副縣長那個一倍1.5倍到現在還是一倍1.5倍資產調查排除哪些限制有做一些調整"},{"start":13125.422,"end":13153.823,"text":"像現在我們要求什麼要把資產從五百萬提高到七百萬類似這樣的問題好趕快我現在問比較重要的問題更重要的問題來個別醫院總額制的薪資隱憂有人提到遇到了總額制在加拿大就會遇到手術延期那我們國內也會產生這個情況那最近有提到說會不會排擠兒科病人因為譬如說因為分科嘛我醫院總額了我可能就拿兒科開刀限制悶診人數轉給其他的成人兒科別醫院的精英者會不會這樣做"},{"start":13155.521,"end":13177.663,"text":"醫院總和制會不會這樣做我們這個有一些剛性需求我們要保護的是的 所以要趕快的會不會造成非緊急手術被延後或者排擠到類似像比較冷門的科 兒科的門診的這些解決方案有沒有開始在實施考量如果這樣的個別總和可以讓我們的分級醫療做得更好我支持那他們可以更有時間來開刀"},{"start":13179.204,"end":13203.854,"text":"是這樣子好那你們要把這些短過渡時期的這些這些泳射這些負面現象要趕快盤點出來好不好好的往下站好那我們來看一下上游政策下游對策你醫院的個別總和制之後你看我們怎樣中小型醫院跟診所他就等一下他少收住院病患也少收門診大家就跑到大醫院會不會這樣子因為大醫院不能拒收嘛所以台灣台中籠統就變成被擠爆嘛是不是這樣子"},{"start":13205.086,"end":13222.482,"text":"所以這個過渡時期的現象還發生在哪裡還往那看發生在我之前也在那天在財政委員會跟你問過了會這樣急診爆量可能會被斷頭醫院會被斷頭現場醫護呢待遇提升慢但是呢負荷量增加很快馬上產生離職離職之後就惡性循環部長上週我不是問過你這個問題"},{"start":13225.154,"end":13251.213,"text":"是不是有問過這個問題是所以我們在遇到一個要往理想制度過渡的過程當中會遇到哪些過渡的現象我們同時要因應解方這個問題你說你打算怎麼解了你上次已經回答過我了我就不再細問往下看所以我們來想一下我們來看一下我屏東個別的情況屏東農總希望未來成為準一中是不是這樣他這有宣布嘛院長支不支持屏東農總往準一中去邁進他定在一一八年"},{"start":13253.581,"end":13266.284,"text":"院長知不知此地方屏東目前沒有醫學中心喔不是每個縣市都有醫學中心那我們很感恩我們有個屏東農總他也立志要成為準醫中您知不知此"},{"start":13267.628,"end":13287.055,"text":"我想如果屏東農總評估他們當地的醫療需求需要發展成準醫學中心那當然是我們會樂觀其成好 但是上週公布了最賠錢的醫院有沒有包括屏東農總有 屏東農總跟他的農全分院前五名屏東佔了兩名我們有沒有很光榮啊"},{"start":13288.5,"end":13310.423,"text":"這個是凸顯出一個我們醫療資源在都跟非都分布不均的情況這個不能規則於任何單一個人 單一機關 制度要想辦法去改變我希望我們努力去改變 但是另外一個問題往下看現在是這樣 現在我們的醫院總和智慧造成什麼呢假設我一個家庭 有牢 有小 有幼 有壯"},{"start":13312.008,"end":13331.02,"text":"主持加計程被要求每年的伙食費只能增加4%所以就分配去了每個成員的伙食費都只能每年增加4%你問問看這個正在長大的他每年需要的伙食費難道只能成長4%嗎這些已經不再長大的還需要成長4%嗎你了解我的意思沒有"},{"start":13332.236,"end":13358.064,"text":"所以在我們地區的總額制 你用個別醫院去算的時候要考慮到每個醫院的發展階段現在屏東農總在什麼階段 往上看 屏東農總在幼兒階段如果這整個高屏地區的總額固定成長4%你只給屏東農總按照去年的門診量 診療量來增加4%他才剛開啊 他每一年要成長的幅度是很大的如果只能幹到前一年成長4%你覺得他活得 養得活嗎 部長你怎麼看"},{"start":13362.791,"end":13380.249,"text":"剛剛您報的數據是這樣子是他的剛開的醫院折舊率會比較快比較大所以會感覺上看起來比較虧損很多但是他的現金收入是一直是有增加的是但是也受到你們區域總額的影響的分配嗎"},{"start":13381.07,"end":13409.922,"text":"所以你們不會說每個醫院都齊頭式的分配嗎你們會按照每個醫院的發展狀況給嗎是不是這樣我們署長點頭了啊你要不要讓署長講一下特別的考量跟委員報告當然在這個區域的總和下高頻的表現是很好他們的點值是趨近一點一塊錢那當然這個有些醫院它的成長會比較高於這個整體的區域成長那我們會實質上去看看它成長的情形"},{"start":13410.782,"end":13427.502,"text":"後面再做一些適度的調整這樣所以目前我們平總統遇到這個情況他要做的很多事但是他按照什麼他是按照去年的同期的量能為基準點如果按照醫院個別總和制他又不能拒收看的越多住的越多虧越多是不是這樣那是惡性循環部長可以救嗎有辦法改有辦法解決"},{"start":13430.461,"end":13442.256,"text":"我們再找院長來討論一下看看他整個是善意的找他來討論不是找他說為什麼中原幫你講話是不是這樣南區實施健保個別醫院的總額三年多屏東榮總去年虧了快1.66億"},{"start":13443.55,"end":13467.251,"text":"怎麼樣朝準一中怎麼辦為了避免屏東病患如果屏東龍口不能成為準一中跑到高雄讓高雄的一中更嚴重這不是我們所熱見的所以我們希望部長可以承諾在未來我們推動醫院總額的制度之下考慮到在區域內的不同醫院的不同發展階段的不同定位給予一些不同的一些安排好不好好 那因為主委在看我們我趕快下來把他截住掉 往下看"},{"start":13467.671,"end":13489.797,"text":"好那接下來最後一個問題就是說現在我們地方的醫院跟我們公共部門的衛生所以前我在當副醫長的時候我們有33個衛生所我們的護理人員還包括校護我們要做什麼要不要做預防保健是衛生所要不要做宣導當然要有的衛生所有群醫他要做醫療是有的要打預防注射對不對是的醫院是不是也做這些事情是不是醫院也會做這些事情公共部門的衛生所也會做這些事情"},{"start":13495.697,"end":13511.809,"text":"但是經費從哪裡來 有從國健署來的 從衛福部來的 從機關署來的 從地方署來的 還有從健保署來的請問做這些事情上面都有錢進入到給這些單位去申請但是畢竟健保支出的比例對象跟公共預算支出的是不是要區分部長是不是要區分我總不能都拿健保的錢來做預防保健跟宣導吧"},{"start":13519.144,"end":13532.767,"text":"比重啦我不是說完全沒有啦所以現在我們健保總的不夠用醫療院所挨挨救啊他說我要做很多事情啊但是你都從健保署錢去挖啊那公務預算要不要出公務預算要出一些啊"},{"start":13533.632,"end":13561.961,"text":"是不是 署長你同不同意同意講得很大聲 你看這個馬上同意署長當然同意那報告委員其實政府這年來真的是從很多防治預防保健方面的確是付出更多的公務預算對啦 所以我這邊就幫你寫全盲健康保險法它是以醫療服務為主疾病傷害生育事故所以它的健保支出是應該做在這些醫療為主的"},{"start":13563.121,"end":13588.737,"text":"其他的一件事情像傳染病的防治我上週才問過你一次像COVID-19期間我們有特別預算去預註那現在不是COVID-19已經不是那個法定傳染病的最高級了那我們要降下來公務預算還支不支持要不要支持醫院做這些傳染這些季節性的好發的我們要不要支持用公務預算幫忙你要說要啊那我說我一定幫你忙啊這樣我才有私利的餘地啊"},{"start":13591.367,"end":13616.463,"text":"這個就是我們要依據健保法啦或實際上當相關的法規來制定當然我們希望說相當公衛啦或者不在原來不在健保法裡面的的確是要用公務醫生很好 最後一句話結論就來了所以全面檢討全民健康保險基金中預防保健及傳染病防治相關的幾副不符合健康保險法幾副的項目改為公務預算支付可不可以"},{"start":13617.692,"end":13629.582,"text":"應該要朝著這個方向來那這兩個標準我就不再重念了可不可以這兩個報告給本席好謝謝也謝謝主席的容忍謝謝兩位謝謝宗嘉賓委員發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席請邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":13649.69,"end":13664.344,"text":"委員好部長好那我延續這個中委員問的跟從這個全民對從我們的健保費這個部分開始是全民健保法的第60條規定那健保總額由主管機關於年度開始"},{"start":13664.784,"end":13687.496,"text":"六個月前你訂它的範圍是請問衛福部目前啊日前所提的明年的健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有給國發會了有沒有報國發會了我們今天已經送出去了今天送出去是好那如果採高推估值的話準備金可能會低於一個月那這個是不是也代表說你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論請教部長那明年你們會啟動這個調漲保費嗎"},{"start":13696.018,"end":13711.811,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分以我們的推估是不需要調漲保惠因為這個部分第一個我們補充保惠的狀況還有基本工資會提升這個還有部分負擔的一個實現這個都可以挹注到"},{"start":13713.853,"end":13727.83,"text":"呃 健保來 齁 謝謝部長 但是你們陳時中政委卻說如果是 另外還有一個是我們 呃 不是現在在的那個增加的稅收 齁 對 以政府 以行政院的規劃是有兩百億會到"},{"start":13728.911,"end":13756.925,"text":"安全準備基金這邊來所以我們算5.5的時候其實只有少了大概30多億好部長那我想請教一下因為很容易可以補過來因為陳時中政委卻說漲保費這個事是代商協商的事情啦也就是換句話說好像沒有把這件事情縮死所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣或者是不夠有共識你們這部分有沒有溝通過我想陳政委他是考慮的更"},{"start":13758.106,"end":13777.74,"text":"更多的一個情況我們是衛福部是在執行我們更加的來計算部長所以我們是比較擔心就是說這個結構上是不是會有困難那尤其說這個醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足恐怕還需要一兩年採取這個高退估值才能夠將這個國民醫療"},{"start":13779.941,"end":13799.817,"text":"保健的支出拉到當年度的GDP的8%所以如果明年沒有採這個所謂高推估值的話是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額移到公務預算之中所以我剛剛說延續剛剛中委員的所以請教部長這部分是不是已經檢討出來了"},{"start":13801.479,"end":13823.717,"text":"例如說癌症型藥基金今年是50億那明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億或獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億跟提升這個保險服務成效計畫的5億我意思就是說這個部分你們有沒有會擴大去檢討"},{"start":13826.176,"end":13851.842,"text":"這個部分其實我們感謝行政院在預算編的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點其實也認為這是對民眾是很需要的醫療品質很需要所以編進去那我相信以這樣的精神明年的也會照樣明年的公務預算還是就是說應該有公務預算的這個部分我們會積極地爭取我相信行政院會支持"},{"start":13855.544,"end":13874.297,"text":"這個會增加整個健保的一個額度非常謝謝委員的關心好謝謝那這個部分請這個我們部長和署長是不是你們大概什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告好謝謝那另外回來到今天的這個草案喔"},{"start":13875.057,"end":13892.402,"text":"部長今天討論這個法案我們先討論一下說這個專案立專法必要性的問題啦那當然憲判制第13號的主文第三點就是說就個人的健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健保署的這個資料庫的儲存處理對外傳輸及對外利用"},{"start":13896.123,"end":13923.884,"text":"這個之主體目的要件範圍等等等的這種重要的事項於全民健康保險法的第79條第80條及相關的法律中均欠缺明確的規定那在這個此範圍內是不符合憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求也違反這個憲法第22條的保障人民資訊的隱私權之意旨那相關機關應該自本判決宣示之日起"},{"start":13924.444,"end":13948.724,"text":"三年內修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律或制定專法明定之那這個部分我只想要請教一下部長為何不是採取修健保法的方式或者是採取而是採取設立專法的方式請教部長有關於設立專法或在原本法條中設立專章或者是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法的79條80條"},{"start":13950.385,"end":13973.059,"text":"我只是想要請教一下部長 你們這個修法的判定依據跟標準是什麼就是說採取設立專法這件事情好 這個從上一任政府的期間就針對這個憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全所以那個時候是用衛生福利整個資料相關的都一直在討論到我們上任以後其實也是衛福部一個大工程"},{"start":13979.322,"end":13995.233,"text":"一直在跟一直在研議然後因為這牽涉到人民的權益嘛怎麼樣又符合憲判的一個部分好 所以部長換句話說就是你們希望更完善的立法對不對更完善的詳細的後來覺得還是先說在全民健保資料"},{"start":13996.573,"end":14024.563,"text":"它有獨特性所以就是會來名字就變成全民健保的一個資料這樣子好 部長所以憲判13號是說在111年的時候就宣判了而且揭示說三年內應該要修法但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議那這中間其實也拖了延宕了三年所以這個原因是什麼會不會這個會不會檢討了太久其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕因為很多修法"},{"start":14025.643,"end":14034.019,"text":"像我們過去很多法也都是NE的很多年那這個我們很小心可是因為三年的時間快到了嘛"},{"start":14035.8,"end":14061.362,"text":"那我想要再進一步問啦其實簡單來講就是這個時間點好像現在才是很緊急很倉促喔第一個再來就問說行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步的明確揭示說實質這個審核標準跟行政透明機制所以是僅讓我們看起來是僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量喔就會淪為這個形式上合憲可是實際上是否違反比例原則導致"},{"start":14062.583,"end":14080.59,"text":"原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護換句話說就是你們行政院的版本的草案雖然回應了憲判第13號的相關的要求但是他的條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督跟問責制度"},{"start":14081.35,"end":14106.671,"text":"還是讓人感覺相當的薄弱或者是其他裁量的空間過大的嫌疑那還有很多的問題就是我其實剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題就是說他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者是不明確其實這還是顯現了這個立法的倉促所以本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權那針對這類的敏感資料"},{"start":14109.193,"end":14123.273,"text":"在本草案中雖然設有這個16到19條提說請求停止跟例外不許停止但是沒有對於所謂例外情況進行實質的界定那所謂何謂是重大公益跟"},{"start":14123.737,"end":14144.292,"text":"無可替代的學術必要性其實在這上面模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損所以例如說所謂的疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的那從這個基礎學術研究藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而主"},{"start":14145.362,"end":14172.354,"text":"所以那如果行政機關一律認定所謂的疫苗研究就是等於重大公益的話那這會不會導致這個條這個導致例外條款過度的膨脹幾乎可以說我只要這樣子宣稱那都可以包山包海大家都可以去這樣用那就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞所以在這部分部長為何這個行政院版本針對當事人使行使這個請求停止"},{"start":14173.174,"end":14197.103,"text":"利用權的程序跟審查標準的規範不足是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於這個資訊不對等的劣勢因為包含剛剛其實我也有注意到也有委員問的就是這個東西的實力比如說你在請求使用這些資料的時候是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道說我這個東西要準備被使用我可以趕快去停止被使用"},{"start":14198.788,"end":14224.764,"text":"所以這個配套顯然是很不足嘛 對不對 部長好 謝謝委員的關心提出非常精闢的一個建議那有關於你現在列出的第19條這個部分其實它都有做好配套措施比如說依其他法律 主管機關及保險人員有提供之義務那這個也不是霸王條例 而是說就是有說真的是國家的需要"},{"start":14226.164,"end":14243.875,"text":"所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就會不會很模糊這是在第十條就有很清楚的寫清楚那第二個跟第三個基本上是基本上還算是蠻容易定義的但是這個部分我們還有審查小組當然他要按照一定的規定以外還有審查小組還有諮議會"},{"start":14246.544,"end":14273.201,"text":"來審查 是不是真的是合乎到第二項 第三好 部長 那我再進一步問草案第15條 即申請者若產生產業的利益應該提撥回饋金但是也沒有明確規範說產業利益的認定跟比率那這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制會形同虛設或者是模糊不清那例如假設產學合作的時候如果定義產業利益何時發生"},{"start":14274.202,"end":14289.949,"text":"那這部分的這個界定到底你們會怎麼處理這個部分是這樣子因為只是想讓我個人覺得說健保署在研議的當中是有考慮到實際上的情況比如說我剛剛講過有那個"},{"start":14291.149,"end":14307.435,"text":"我們癌症醫院齁癌症病人很需要臨床試驗因為臨床試驗齁可以省下他們很多很高昂貴的藥物所以你去問那個癌症醫院的院長他都說希望政府爭取更多的國外的藥廠來我們台灣做臨床試驗這樣可以"},{"start":14312.217,"end":14333.972,"text":"在台灣不但當然協助也有幫助讓真的病人沒有錢的可以來進臨床試驗而這個研究以後就有可能會有成就如果他的結果非常好可能他就可以到治療更多的病人以外當然這公司就有"},{"start":14336.014,"end":14356.262,"text":"有利益嘛那這其實是三領的局面但是這個時候我們也要訂一些所以部長我想要講的就是說這個機制好像目前看起來這個草案都還很模糊我們會好好的討論但是現在討論都還不夠詳細所以我擔心的就是這個啦現在看起來就是還是太模糊所有的東西都還是很模糊所以我剛剛講的時間嘛這個是因為是我們把它佈置的完整就好了所以剛剛有問配套啦"},{"start":14362.464,"end":14378.418,"text":"涉嫌辦法來處理那我進一步問你這個像健保資料的諮議會雖然在草案的第四條內有依法設置但它是否僅是諮詢的角色所以是只是諮詢的角色嗎其實在它之前有一個審查小組"},{"start":14379.839,"end":14402.65,"text":"這個都運轉的相當的好這運轉小組有24個專家委員會依據他不同的申請案來調配專家這已經有審查的機制然後到執議會就是如果有比較困難決定的那當或者比較需要討論的爭議的那就到執議會來討論不然的話你不可能讓審議會一個案一個案"},{"start":14403.971,"end":14415.571,"text":"在審那可能部長那我再進一步問這個諮詢會議目前是規定需要納入不同領域的專家還有人權團體但是並沒有強制揭露議事紀錄跟決策過程"},{"start":14417.898,"end":14430.59,"text":"好像並沒有在這上面說要怎麼樣的透明機制其實我前面有提到所以其實我們之前包含我跟本席跟部長我們有很多的質詢都都跟這有關係包含這疫苗審查等等的問題嗎我想要請問這衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料"},{"start":14435.634,"end":14458.813,"text":"這個會議的意識公開然後決議的結果書面揭露然後還有再來就是是否要考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向讓這些制度可以讓民眾可以更安心自己的資料安心被使用因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡啊好 謝謝我想會議紀錄應該是公開是沒有問題"},{"start":14462.455,"end":14483.433,"text":"另外他的成果其實我們已經在網站裡面有把最新計畫還有計畫的...這樣開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明?可以,蘇長說可以嗎?好,那你答應我們,希望在這個部分這個配套要這樣做可是其實我整段這樣問下來,我其實也想要表達一個概念總結來說,其實剛剛這麼多的細節的問題"},{"start":14487.386,"end":14502.416,"text":"都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個"},{"start":14517.578,"end":14545.529,"text":"所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊"},{"start":14546.209,"end":14561.292,"text":"所以這樣子的法案的推行跟審議的程序還有沒有足夠的社會溝通我覺得這樣的情況就會讓剛剛我來的過程我說連立法院的同仁裡面的同仁都有各種疑慮啊 部長"},{"start":14562.355,"end":14578.183,"text":"所以這部分你們要怎麼完善從今天的委員的一個執行我覺得委員都很瞭解都已經聽到很多很多的民意所以我想對於等一下如果要討論的時候會有很大的幫助我們也希望"},{"start":14579.984,"end":14606.118,"text":"也會希望委員大家多多討論把它弄得更周全創造一個三年的法案所以我剛剛就說嘛就是不是真的到這裡這樣子逐條叫做真的周全啦真的是這個可能還需要部長這邊要再更加大的力道怎麼樣做出社會溝通讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心以及剛剛說的如何確保每一個人在被使用資料之前他是知道的然後他也可以趕快"},{"start":14607.603,"end":14615.91,"text":"請求停止我們一定讓人民安心而且食物上創造三養的生活謝謝好謝謝廖偉強委員發言接下來請劉建國委員發言好謝謝主席請部長好有請邱部長那署長也併上來吧來署長"},{"start":14635.293,"end":14660.445,"text":"柳政委好 部長好剛剛當主席的時候聽到一些部長還有署長的回應有點替您感到擔心幾件事情 第一件事情 急診的事情應該部長還在當委員的時候就那個時候當下部長應該還有一個記憶嘛就是林口長庚醫院曾經爆發出急診醫師的離職潮"},{"start":14663.14,"end":14670.084,"text":"桃梨草那個時候好像是部長剛當委員的前段那個階段應該是頭一年部長記得是什麼時候吧確定的年份我不確定因為那個時候林署長跟葉的確是有相當的一個人事問題那個署長好像當時是市長啦對不對議事市長市長你記得什麼時候嗎105年105嗎2016啦啊2016178"},{"start":14694.476,"end":14722.655,"text":"2016 部長就...部長還沒有當委員2017 當2016啦2016 好 那就當了嘛那所以應該你們對這事情的掌握應該非常清楚嘛但是當時林口長跟急診醫師的狀況跟現在的狀況你們有沒有比對過 雷同 不雷同 一樣 不一樣差異在什麼地方 人數有多寡 差很多比例 增加了N倍"},{"start":14724.471,"end":14749.771,"text":"有嗎當時林口長庸醫院的話會比較屬於個別醫院的問題那現在急診的問題會比較屬於全國性的問題好 但是今天發出來的聲音也是來自長庚系統的急診醫師嘛對不對家喻長庚不是不是家喻長庚是那個神經內科神經內科那個如果是急診的話是由急診醫學會的一個同仁"},{"start":14752.013,"end":14765.547,"text":"是我只是希望提醒部長跟署長不要再有2017年那個狀況再發生了而且如果現在如果再發生之前已經特別提到過現在community又再起來然後醫療緊繃這種狀況那我真的怕"},{"start":14768.625,"end":14797.232,"text":"會不會有所謂的急診的醫療的崩壞的情況發生甚至有達到那種裡面一花不可收拾的這樣的一個相關因應的地步這部分可能你們要特別去小心一定要小心一定要小心不要在部長任內跟署長任內去發生這種事情所以我再度提出不要有急診醫師的這個集體的暴走暴走潮還是我們一花不可收拾的這樣的一個局面"},{"start":14797.732,"end":14814.472,"text":"的情況發生我們會努力改善好 謝謝那不然你看嘛台灣這個健保這個開辦已經從1995年到現在這個是獨步世界先進的政策同時在健保的制度下民眾的就診資料庫也是全球難得的這個醫療保庫嘛沒有錯"},{"start":14816.514,"end":14835.23,"text":"但現在醫學要進步就必須要有龐大的醫療資料庫當作依據醫學的技術才能持續的不斷的去演進然後在2022年這個憲法的法庭憲判制第13號的判決命令健保資料被用於原本目的以外的用途我剛剛有宣讀一次的"},{"start":14835.871,"end":14861.829,"text":"不內容違憲所以不需要在判決宣告三年內完成修法或訂定專法來確保民眾個人資料受到保護個人資料受到保護也因此才有今天本席排審的這個全民健康保險資料管理條例的這個草案沒有錯嘛對不對個人資料受到保障個人資料受到保障個人資料受到保障這個很重要所以我特別再列印了三次"},{"start":14862.85,"end":14890.888,"text":"但今天這個法律如果可以順利的完成崔委員會那就代表他真正的叫做個人資料健保的個人資料可以受到完整的保護嗎部長可以打呼我嗎簡單一句話就好一定要 這是基本要做的一定要做到但是過去剛剛有很多委員槌尋嘛對不對過去發生什麼事情我就不再贅述嘛那甚至於甚至於現在很多機關都被滲透"},{"start":14892.701,"end":14896.517,"text":"這個申託裡面有在你的草案裡面做相關的防治嗎"},{"start":14900.323,"end":14923.132,"text":"這滲透應該是另外我們有資訊的一個保護這個也做得很周全那這一個部分你確定很周全?部長你確定可以很周全?我們已經找到全世界最厲害的我們的處長理事長處長在做全國防範處長確定是全世界最厲害的嗎?"},{"start":14924.032,"end":14951.547,"text":"在醫療部的部長對他這個做篩驗保證他是全世界最厲害的我相信是應該是他不一定要到全世界最厲害不過他可以做到相關預防的這些讓資料外露然後資料流失資料被吸資料被吸出的情況之下甚至也可以做到預防相關滲透的情況我就覺得他就是一個很厲害的人他不一定全世界最厲害部長可以這麼跟我保證嗎"},{"start":14953.939,"end":14981.956,"text":"我相信他是非常厲害的人而且到他的經驗也到WHA我們這五月的時候到達他的厲害我無意挑戰啦他的厲害我也可以敬佩也展現給全世界的很多國家來看啦但是剛剛我擔心的事情部長能答覆我嗎就我們這個處長都可以一念而解都可以相當的預防都會到位包含未修這個未訂這個法之前跟訂這個法之後我擔心的事情都不會發生能不能簡單跟我說明一下"},{"start":14983.396,"end":14998.046,"text":"那這樣我才能夠認證他確定是非常厲害在資訊安全這個部分齁是整體性尤其是醫院的這個醫療系統的一個保護齁這個部分理事長這邊一直在進行是會跟委員報告一下"},{"start":14999.707,"end":15025.024,"text":"好 組長簡單就好好不好 讓我知道你的厲害沒有沒有 這個 不敢就是說我們這個資訊都一直在學習第一個就是說跟委員講的就是說第一個有關於擔心這個下載大量個資被吸出的部分我們現在都有全面的施行所謂的USB還有硬碟下載的管控所以只要他在不當的時間 不當的地點跟下載不當的資料的時候 每個月都會去"},{"start":15025.584,"end":15047.737,"text":"把這個東西排出來給各位這個所謂的主管去知道每個月都排出來我們沒有時間預防的相關機制存在要等到排出來的時候我們才會發覺到是問題所在這個是指我們指公務內的人他有權限使用的人那至於第二個就是說這個資料我們事實上是在內網裡那他必須在這個所謂的規定這個中心"},{"start":15048.277,"end":15075.397,"text":"才能去做相關的工作然後它是屬於A級的機構所以這些相關的資防防範我們都是定期的有去做相關的一個處理所以這些就是這個處長之前有打呼過我啦就A級的防範嘛對不對那A級的防範防範嘛可以達到預防的效果嘛就是這個事件可能要發生了我們不會等到發生之後經過每個月盤整的時候才發覺到我們是在被吸出嘛會不會有這種情況發生"},{"start":15076.894,"end":15099.445,"text":"你保證一下嘛你跟我講一下程序吧這個就是要分兩個部分來講一個就是如果說是有對外聯的一個資料的時候呢現在都有一種叫做主動防禦的一個軟體主動防禦就是他偵測到這些不正常的行為的時候不是這個就是所謂委員講的防範那他就會主動的去試鏡然後去做隔離"},{"start":15100.605,"end":15121.91,"text":"那健保只要更安全他在這個內網裡面沒有對外去連的所以別人是沒有辦法任意的進來的所以在這一塊部分的話他比現在這種主動防範還要更安全因為我只有問這個時間就已經快差不多了其實坦白講我剛剛提出的問題我也希望部長跟處長再思考一下可能我的擔心應該是對的"},{"start":15124.15,"end":15147.686,"text":"也希望說你們在整個因應相關的其實作為除了定這個法律之外還有更積極的更有效的預防我擔心會發生的事情嘛這樣人民百姓才會信任嘛對不對也才會相信衛福部要展現出來的相關的一些政策的推行嘛因為我為什麼要講這個啦你看啦我們是要跟實驗室來跑8月12日就完成三堵"},{"start":15148.346,"end":15175.325,"text":"那不願意這個自己的健保資料被作為研究用途的民眾他可以有法規的依循申請出這個退出權嘛對不對但是喔但是部長你看一下這個報導這個聯絡報報導我們這個社保社代師長講說初步採書面讓民眾申請退出未來會考量這個便民作業會研究提供上網申請這個未來是指什麼時候22世紀"},{"start":15178.635,"end":15206.604,"text":"民國兩百年市長當然第一階段我們還是比較謹慎啦剛開始做的時候謹慎然後再逐步再用到其他更方便的方式不是啦 市長這講這個用笑嘛你只要講一個未來 你的未來什麼時候未來是三年後一年後我們就再檢討一年後你就講一年內嘛你講一年後也怪怪一年後也是22世紀啊"},{"start":15208.086,"end":15230.163,"text":"一年後也是十年後啊我們也是電腦王國咧然後AI的世代了建保署都還有建保快移通的APP了怎麼這個書面改為線上的需要在未來你未來不一定就成為部長了是不是要等到你當部長的時候才處理我不是要虧你啦"},{"start":15231.813,"end":15254.372,"text":"因為你講這個未來就覺得讓我有一點擔心說你們連這個書面改為線上的申請都會有個未來而且不曉得未來什麼時候那你如果去保障民眾的這些大量的這些健保的相關的一些資料我會擔心嘛我會把擔心提出來嘛所以我希望這個可能要講清楚啦一年內我們盡快一年內可以吧"},{"start":15255.392,"end":15255.893,"text":"八月十二後"},{"start":15265.339,"end":15293.138,"text":"會有大量民眾要來提出這個退出嗎也不一定嘛 對不對然後反而社會一部應該是告訴民眾自己的健保資料作為研究的用途是有什麼樣的貢獻有什麼樣的這個益處嘛反而例如像以前COVID-19的時候疫情的防患 疫苗 健保資料也絕對提供非常重要的數據支持嘛所以不會太多人去提出行情嘛但是我們記得說未來未來才可以提出最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最最"},{"start":15294.179,"end":15320.211,"text":"而且我們利用這個健保資料數據台灣在國際期間已經發表了9000多筆的論文對台灣的醫學領域的發展是絕對有關鍵性的影響所以衛福部應該把這些資訊告訴民眾讓民眾知道自己資料除了在健保庫很安全而且還可以作為疾病的預防治療做出貢獻我想民眾還是會相信衛福部所以今天部長講說我們聘了一個世界最厲害的資訊專家"},{"start":15322.632,"end":15342.461,"text":"這個當然有強化這個民眾對衛部的信任嘛對不對但是如果說一個線上的申請你需要你講的沒有一個缺缺時間那民眾就會覺得怪怪的嘛齁那另外一個齁但是我到現在也沒有看到你們有什麼積極作為114年度的沒宣會用我們變成368應該剩下1000多嘛1700左右嘛對不對是"},{"start":15346.949,"end":15359.238,"text":"所以你們的一些媒體義務的辦理應該是非常吃力嘛當然就是部長署長可能要展智慧吧因為這個健保資料庫對疾病的預防還有這個治療是至關重要嘛"},{"start":15360.824,"end":15375.494,"text":"所以你先要讓全民知道我想我們現在不只包括健保是包括整個所有的衛生防疫各方面的資訊都需要好 請署長回去最後一個問題謝謝主席的體諒"},{"start":15380.836,"end":15405.884,"text":"周四有安排一個議程 就是要到北市聯醫 考察這個病人自處施行的狀況 以及這個近期傳染病疫情的防治作為這一次的疫情好像有點死灰復燃因為那天CDC的書長在這邊打呼FDA的書長也在這邊打呼 相關的數據六月底七月初一個禮拜就將近有全台二十萬人確診六月初到七月底應該是一七一如果到八月初可能一百八十萬 我想這些數據應該"},{"start":15407.285,"end":15432.985,"text":"應該目前為止都是這個樣子對不對 這個預估沒有落差現在看起來沒有比這個高啦好 相關的這個預防的這個疫情的整備都已經到位了嘛都已經到位嘛 這上上禮拜裡面都有講過但是很奇怪勒 我覺得奇怪這個到目前為止立法院 就講我們立法院已經喔 要延會到7月31號我們看到已經很多的助理都確診了"},{"start":15434.329,"end":15446.736,"text":"而且交叉感染,有掌握嗎?因為像綠碗業這種上千流動的場域我也沒有看到你們提高任何防疫的積極作為"},{"start":15447.87,"end":15465.866,"text":"沒有啊以前都還會噴一噴啊都會噴一噴啊現在通通沒有所以你跟全國的百姓講說令月底七月初令月初到七月底台灣的疫情會一直上來喔我們相關事情都準備好了喔但是相關的預防的積極作為通通沒有"},{"start":15466.929,"end":15494.793,"text":"所以那一天在上個禮拜我才會跟部長面前跟CDC的署長要求說你如何降低確診的人數一個星期內提供給委員會來做相關的一些參考但是這個一個禮拜已經過了也沒有看到這其一嘛那其二就以本院本院來講也沒有看到有相關的積極要如何降低COVID-19確診的這樣的一個作為沒看到這邊都沒有了你全國怎麼做"},{"start":15497.065,"end":15513.567,"text":"全國怎麼做也沒有所以你們把相關的防疫的物資準備好了疫苗準備好了口罩準備好了消毒水準備好了這個事情就到此結束了這樣就可以降低原有你們預估的確診人數是這樣嗎"},{"start":15515.37,"end":15524.059,"text":"如果是這樣我有意見但是部長你就要公開答覆說那這樣就有搞了所以我們也不用煩惱醫療崩壞我們也不用怕急診室的醫師又有離職潮我們也不用怕這個神經相關科技的這些醫師他們有接受到什麼樣的這樣的一個狀況都不用擔心是這樣嗎"},{"start":15536.052,"end":15554.973,"text":"包委員我們CDC一直在注意國內外疫情的監測跟分析他有注意我們有伙覺啦BHO現在還是把它定於常規監測的一個層次那我們當然尤其在端午節之前包括行政院長也都希望大家能夠我們有先導能夠"},{"start":15556.955,"end":15577.942,"text":"那個落實個人的衛生自主戴口罩那當然還很重要要盡量你有確定在宣導或想透過什麼方式宣導在什麼地方宣導而且每一次在我們的譬如說羅一金副組長在接受訪問的時候每一次一定或開記者會的時候一定有先一定有宣導大家能夠在"},{"start":15578.722,"end":15593.479,"text":"人口用密集的地方能夠戴口罩有比較自主性那等一下就請部長要求幕僚把相關的宣導都積極做在這一星期就好了提供給委員會做參考好的沒問題我提醒部長一下"},{"start":15594.179,"end":15615.4,"text":"應該是沒有啦然後我也請部長看一則新聞2020年台灣成為亞洲首個通過公衛法的國家2021年開始招考第一屆公衛師迄今已經五屆了但是通過的這些考試的公衛師至今沒有人進入到公務體系這個是相關的一些報導給部長做參考這種情況還是令人回憶所思"},{"start":15616.021,"end":15631.995,"text":"通過了公衛司法在疫情期間我們確認到公衛司的重要性但是到目前沒有任何公衛司在公務體系裡面協助疫情的管控我們對在美國政府當時公部門引進的公務人才公司領導企業就要求到五千人"},{"start":15633.288,"end":15655.217,"text":"預算至少變了快20億美金但是我們這個法通過6年了到現在是這種成果是不曉得有沒有什麼樣的異國思考公共衛生人才是非常重要的啦我們會那個未來會盡量來考慮把他們的專能讓這些有專長的人來發揮那其實我們在衛福部的體系裡面"},{"start":15656.337,"end":15675.985,"text":"背景是公共衛生的可以說是非常的多是沒有錯我當然知道很多那未來是不是有執照的我們應該給他更多的機會來發揮所長我想這個是未來應該要做的方向部長一樣還是回答我未來那未來是22世紀還是部長變院長了所以我覺得有時候有些事情我們還是講一個時間點會比較正確好不好"},{"start":15682.327,"end":15698.485,"text":"如果覺得這個方向是正確的讓公衛師可以進到公務體系裡面來協助降低相關的這種流行性的這些狀況扮演著非常重要的角色我也請講美國的狀況來給部長做參考我們是不是有這個機會嘛有沒有這個機會因為這個法已經通過六年了"},{"start":15704.326,"end":15717.276,"text":"所以我的意思就是增加這方面的現在是這樣子因為如果說不是我的意思啦就是你覺得蘋果起來因為公衛師可以進到公衛體系來做相關的因為這些疫情的防治包括公衛師"},{"start":15719.438,"end":15733.263,"text":"現在通過的是比較屬於專業的啦不是公務員嘛如果是公務員的那當然就是我沒有說他一定變成公務員我是說公務衛師進到公務體系來協助相關的疫情的防範那沒問題我們當然是盡量的只要有機會我們會盡量"},{"start":15736.764,"end":15754.333,"text":"聘請有公衛背景的尤其是特別有這樣的一個專業執照的好 謝謝啦 就請部長儘快啦是不是可以有一些相關的一些規劃原理跟部門盡量公衛實能力這些國家的人才好 謝謝 一個月可以吧可以可以 把那個規劃跟委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員發言"},{"start":15770.572,"end":15777.201,"text":"接下來請圖權己委員圖權己委員圖權己委員不在請翁曉林委員翁曉林委員翁曉林委員不在"},{"start":15780.182,"end":15781.103,"text":"那我們就來處理法案了"},{"start":15805.499,"end":15832.598,"text":"他在宣讀的時候還是各位還是可以用餐好不好這樣好好現在請宣讀提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀全民健康保險資料管理條例草案行政院提案委員林月琴等21人提案條文對照表行政院提案委員林月琴等21人提案法案名稱全民健康保險資料管理條例第一條未規範全民健康保險資料與特定目的外之利用及管理"},{"start":15833.058,"end":15861.263,"text":"以保障人民資訊隱私權並提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利促進學術研究發展及提供政府機關執行法定職務增進全民健康福祉特制定本條例第二條本條例之主管機關為衛生福利部第三條本條例用詞定義如下依全民健康保險資料以下簡稱健保資料指全民健康保險保險人以下簡稱保險人未辦理保險業務依全民健康保險法所蒐集處理之資料二特定目的"},{"start":15862.023,"end":15882.017,"text":"指主管機關及保險人蒐集個人健保資料之法律規定目的3.當事人指個人健保資料之本人4.假名化指健保資料經處理或加工後非透過其他資訊對照不能識別其身份且該其他資訊應分開存放並採取技術上或組織上保護措施之程序"},{"start":15882.717,"end":15906.863,"text":"第四條主管機關應組成健保資料諮議會以下簡稱諮議會其任務如下一健保資料特定目的外利用之管理及監督政策法令擬定之建議二健保資料特定目的外利用安全維護措施監督防護之諮詢三申請特定目的外利用健保資料爭議之處理四健保資料經當事人提出停止特定目的外利用或停止"},{"start":15907.583,"end":15925.912,"text":"提供特定目的外利用争议之处理五协助主管机关就健保资料之特定目的外利用处管理委托办理之辅导评估及监督六其他健保资料相关事项之建议第五条自议会设委员若干人由主管机关就依视公共卫生法律与资安"},{"start":15927.192,"end":15954.363,"text":"與資通安全之專家學者人權團體代表社會公正人士及政府機關構代表聘派兼之其中專家學者人數不得少於委員總數二分之一任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一委員任期二年期滿得續聘自議會委員之名額主席產生方式會議之召集出席決議與議事運作及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第六條主管機關及保險人應備制電腦"},{"start":15956.424,"end":15978.172,"text":"資通系統與資通服務及必要之相關設施設備建置健保資料之相關資料庫並指定專責單位及專人管理之主管機關建置前向資料庫需用之健保資料由保險能將該等資料假名化後傳輸與主管機關前向健保資料假名化之程序作業方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":15978.832,"end":16006.476,"text":"主管机关应定期或不定期考核第一项资料库之管理及运用发现有应改善事项时应改善或通知保险人立即或限期改善第七条健保资料之特定目的外利用及管理由主管机关及保险人为之并得委托专业机构或法人以下并称受托机构办理前项受托机构之资格条件委托事项行政契约制定令终止及其他相关事项之办法由主管机关定之"},{"start":16007.156,"end":16028.566,"text":"行政院提案第八條申請特定目的外利用健保資料因以提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利促進學術研究發展與提供政府機關構及行政法人執行法定職務之目的違憲委員林月琴等二十一人提案第八條第一項同院版第二項如下前項申請不得為營利使用"},{"start":16030.205,"end":16052.43,"text":"行政院提案第九條前條申請者以政府機關購行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構為限委員林月琴等21人提案第九條第一項同院版第二項及第三項如下非為中華民國境內登記設立之大學法人機構不得為前項之申請"},{"start":16053.07,"end":16076.062,"text":"同時於中華民國境內及外國大陸地區香港或澳門登記設立之大學法人機構或位於外國大陸地區香港或澳門登記設立但設有分支機構辦事處隸屬關係單位之大學法人機構不得為第一項之申請行政院提案第十條政府機關構計行政法人執行法定職務申請特定目的外利用健保資料"},{"start":16076.622,"end":16096.634,"text":"應以書面向保險人提出其取得健保資料之運用及管理依各該機關構及行政法人所依據之法律辦理前項申請程序應檢附之文件健保資料之提供方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之司法機關應偵查審判或執行之法定職務調取健保資料應依訴訟法規辦理"},{"start":16098.495,"end":16114.471,"text":"監察機關執行法定職務調取健保資料應依監察法規辦理委員林月琴等21人提案第10條第一項及第二項同院版第三項如下未經被保險人與事前同意者不得為第一項資料之提供第四項與院版第三項同"},{"start":16115.171,"end":16136.381,"text":"行政院與委員林月琴等21人提案第11條至第13條如下第11條政府機關構行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構申請特定目的外利用健保資料除屬前條規定情形外應填具申請書並檢附特定目的外利用計畫經主管機關或保險人審查核准後"},{"start":16139.082,"end":16155.112,"text":"以书面通知申请者申请者就经核准之特定目的外利用计划有修正变更或展延之需要时应依前项规定提出申请并经主管机关或保险人审查核准后使得之心前二项申请之资格条件与程序"},{"start":16155.492,"end":16182.247,"text":"申請書與特定目的外利用計劃應記載內容審查程序與基準廢紙核准收費及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之第十二條申請者不服主管機關或保險人依前條第一項或第二項規定所為之審核結果者應自收受書面通知之一日起算三十日內向主管機關或保險人提出申付與其不予受理不服申付結果者得依法提起訴願及行政訴訟"},{"start":16183.147,"end":16208.899,"text":"前項申付應檢據之文件與資料補正審查作業申付決定作成期限及其他應遵行事項是辦法由主管機關定之第十三條第十一條第一項申請者經核准特定目的外利用健保資料及繳費後其利用應依主管機關或保險人指定之方式時間及場所執行主管機關與保險人應於其指定之場所建置安全作業環境及規範"},{"start":16209.939,"end":16237.82,"text":"前項指定之方式時間場所作業方式禁止吸出項目違規處理資通安全維護措施與安全作業環境規範及其他應遵行事項之辦法由主管機關定之行政院提案第十四條第一條第一項申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所得結果不得含有可識別個人身份之資料前項利用結果申請者不得為第十一條第一項及第二項經核准特定目的外利用計劃以外之利用"},{"start":16238.5,"end":16265.426,"text":"申请者于特定目的外利用计划执行完毕后应将其利用结果报告提供与主管机关或保险人委员林月琴等21人提案第14条第一项同源版第一项第二项如下前项资料之使用除第10条第三项规定被保险人事前同意之外特定目的外利用健保资料之使用应及告知被保险人该资料之使用方式目的期间申请人及拒绝提供之方法"},{"start":16265.866,"end":16291.386,"text":"第三項及第四項同院版第二項及第三項行政院提案第十五條第十一條第一項申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所得結果產生產業利益者應提撥一定比率回饋金納入全民健康保險基金前項產業利益之認定提撥回饋金之一定比率方式及其他相關事項接辦法由主管機關定之委員林月琴等二十一人提案第十五條"},{"start":16292.006,"end":16310.804,"text":"第一項如下第十一條第一項申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所得結果自申請日期十五年內產生產業利益者應提撥一定比率回饋金納入全民健康保險基金第二項同院版行政院委員林月琴等二十一人提案第十六條至第十九條如下"},{"start":16311.284,"end":16339.879,"text":"第十六條 主管機關及保險人依個人資料保護法第十七條公開其持有健保資料之有關事項時應以並公開下列事項一 當事人得就其健保資料之全部或一部請求停止他人為特定目的外之利用二 簽款請求之方式受理機關及其他相關事項第十七條 當事人得填據申請書請求保險人停止其健保資料之全部或一部之特定目的外使用目的外利用"},{"start":16340.519,"end":16369.331,"text":"前向當事人未滿7歲或受監護宣告者應由其法定代理人或監護人申請滿7歲至未滿18歲或受輔助宣告者應經當事人本人或輔助人同意並由其法定代理人或受輔助宣告之本人申請保險人受理第一項申請後經查由當事人健保資料者應自申請日之1日起算30日內註記不得提供特定目的外利用並將同意註記及註記日期通知當事人"},{"start":16370.171,"end":16395.106,"text":"第一項停止特定目的外利用健保資料之種類但為註記與通知之內容及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第十八條當事人健保資料經註記停止特定目的外利用後除保險人依第六條第二項規定將該等資料傳輸於主管機關外主管機關及保險人均不得在對外提供特定目的外之利用其停止利用"},{"start":16395.786,"end":16413.267,"text":"其停止特定目的外利用之效力不溯及既往第十九條當事人請求停止特定目的外利用其健保資料並經註記後有下列情形之一者主管機關或保險人仍得對外提供特定目的外利用一其他法律主管機關或保險人有提供之義務"},{"start":16414.068,"end":16436.949,"text":"二为维护国家安全三为免除人民之生命身体或财产上之极为危险行政院提案第20条以窃取毁坏或其他非法方法危害主管机关或保险人一第六条第一项所建制资料库之核心自动系统设备或电脑机房之功能正常运作者处一年以上七年以下有期徒刑得并科新台币一千万元以下罚金"},{"start":16437.509,"end":16466.235,"text":"意图危害国家安全或社会安定而犯前项之罪者处三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得并科新台币五千万元以下罚金前二项之未遂犯罚之委员宁愿请等二十一人提案第二十条第一项同源版第一项第二项如下意图盈利而犯前项之罪者处三年以上十年以下有期徒刑犯罪所得应全数没收得并科新台币五千万元以下罚金第三项同源版第二项第四项如下"},{"start":16466.815,"end":16495.212,"text":"第一項及第三項之未遂法之行政院委員林月琴等21人提案第21條對主管機關或保險人一第六條第一項所建置資料庫之核心資通系統以下列方法之一危害其功能正常運作者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金一無故輸入其帳號密碼破解使用電腦之保護措施或利用電腦系統之漏洞而入侵其電腦或相關設備"},{"start":16496.753,"end":16521.676,"text":"二 无故以电脑程式或其他电磁方式干扰其电脑或相关设备三 无故取得删除或变更其电脑或相关设备之电磁记录制作专攻犯前项之罪之电脑程式而供自己或他人犯前项之罪者一同意图危害国家安全或社会安定而犯前二项之罪者处三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得并科新台币五千万元以下罚金前三项之未遂犯罚之"},{"start":16523.12,"end":16549.019,"text":"委員林月琴等21人提案第22條違反第8條第二項健保資料為營利使用者處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑委員林月琴等21人提案第23條大學法人或機構違反第9條第三項營利於外國大陸地區香港或澳門另有登記設立或有未設立登記之分之機構辦事處隸屬關係單位而取得健保資料者大學法人或機構之負責人"},{"start":16549.94,"end":16575.329,"text":"三位管理人資料申請人處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三千萬元以下罰金行政院提案第22條違反第11條第一項規定未經主管機關或保險人核准擅自就健保資料為特定目的外利用者由主管機關或保險人處新台幣二百萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還並自處分送達至日期一年內不准其申請特定目的外利用"},{"start":16575.789,"end":16603.952,"text":"其取得之健保資料應與銷毀委員林月琴等21人提案第24條同院版第22條行政院提案第23條有下列情形之一者由主管機關或保險人處新台幣50萬元以上250萬元以下罰還並限期令其停止執行停止利用或改正藉其未停止執行停止利用或改正者按次處罰並得自罰還處分送達至日期一年內不准其申請特定目的外利用"},{"start":16604.412,"end":16620.02,"text":"一 未依第11條第1項或第2項核准之計畫內容執行二 違反第11條第2項或第25條准用第11條第2項規定修正變更或展現經核准之特定目的外利用計畫未經申請核准及與執行"},{"start":16621.761,"end":16643.249,"text":"3.違反第13條第1項或第25條準用第13條第1項規定為依主管機關或保險人指定之方式、時間或場所執行健保資料之特定目的外利用4.違反第13條第2項或第25條準用第13條第2項所定辦法中有關禁止吸出項目或自動安全維護措施規定5.違反第14條第1項"},{"start":16644.529,"end":16670.428,"text":"或第25條準用第14條第一項規定執行健保資料特定目的外利用所得結果含有可識別個人身份之資料六違反第14條第二項或第25條準用第14條第二項規定將利用結果為原申請目的以外之利用七違反第15條第一項或第25條準用第15條第一項規定未提撥一定比率回饋金納入全民健康保險基金"},{"start":16671.519,"end":16690.392,"text":"委員零月清等21人提案第25條同院版第23條行政院提案第24條經依前2條規定處罰者由主管機關或保險人處其實際違行為之人薪台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰款前項行為人具醫事人員資格且違反醫事人員專門職業法律規定者"},{"start":16692.593,"end":16715.844,"text":"並依各該法律懲處之委員林月琴等21人提案第26條同院版第24條行政院提案第25條本條例施行前經核准特定目的外利用健保資料與本條例施行後能繼續利用者其繼續利用准用第11條第二項與第三項及第12條之第15條規定委員林月琴等21人提案第27條同院版第25條"},{"start":16717.405,"end":16734.359,"text":"行政院提案第26條本條例施行細則由主管機關定之委員林月琴等21人提案第28條同院版第26條行政院提案第27條本條例施行日期由行政院定之委員林月琴等21人提案第29條同院版第27條繼續宣讀修正動議"},{"start":16737.521,"end":16752.997,"text":"第一案第三條第四款如下四資料隱私強化措施指全民健康保險資料經處理或加工使其以通常方法不能識別其身份之技術上或組織上之保護措施第四條序文如下"},{"start":16753.477,"end":16766.813,"text":"主管機關應組成健保資料審議會以下簡稱審議會其任務如下第二款默二字為查核第三款如下三申請特定目的外利用健保資料之事案件審查與爭議處理"},{"start":16771.107,"end":16783.504,"text":"第五條修正文字自議會為審議會第一項倒數第二句為人權及並有團體代表第六條修正文字假名化為隱私強化"},{"start":16786.004,"end":16802.662,"text":"第十一條第三項如下第一項申請書內容應在名下列四項一申請者名稱地址代表人姓名等資訊二執行資料特定目的外利用之相關人員資訊三所申請之資料範圍類型及期間四申請之法規依據"},{"start":16803.463,"end":16822.194,"text":"五 资料利用之特定目的必要性及预期效益六 资料处理方式预期可能风险风险管控与安全维护措施第四项前三句如下第一项及第二项申请之资格条件与程序其他主管机关公告申请书与特定目的外利用计划应记载内容"},{"start":16822.814,"end":16827.597,"text":"第五項如下申請人申請書審議會審查結果主管機關或保險人合可決定等相關內容除涉及國家安全個人隱私與商業秘密經申請人主管機關或保險人要求及審議會認定者外均應對外公開"},{"start":16840.56,"end":16861.351,"text":"第十四條第四項如下主管機關及保險人應定期公佈使用健保資料之目的外利用情形及其他相關資訊提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴黃秀芳第二項第二案第五條於第一項人權團體代表後面增列頓號援助民族代表第七條"},{"start":16863.735,"end":16890.758,"text":"增列第三項如下前兩項有關健保資料特定目的外之利用管理辦法若涉及以研究原住民族為目的者除應取得各該原住民族同意以外應由中央原住民族主管機關會同本條例主管機關定之第十五條增列第一項後段文字如下但其因研究原住民族健保資料所深知產業利益"},{"start":16891.458,"end":16913.431,"text":"應納入原住民族綜合發展基金增列第二項文字如下但有關原住民族健康資料所生產業利益之認定及回饋事項由中央原住民族主管機關會同本條例主管機關定之提案人委員盧憲一連署人委員蘇清泉圖全及以上"},{"start":16916.897,"end":16941.083,"text":"第三案修正動議第六條第三項修改為主管機關應會同數位發展主管機關其餘同行政院版第四案第三項修改為主管機關及保險人應會同數位發展主管機關對受託機構考核第一項之利用及管理操縣有應改善事項時應通知受託機構立即獻起改善"},{"start":16942.881,"end":16970.744,"text":"第五案第一項修改為當事人與保險人締結全民健康保險契約時其契約條款應納入是否同意主管機關或保險人一第七條委託機構利用及管理健保資料或政府機關構行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託這大學法人機構一第十條第十一條申請特定目的外利用其餘同行政院版"},{"start":16972.912,"end":17001.665,"text":"提案委員 王玉敏 蘇清泉連署委員 陳昭芝 陳金輝 盧憲一 邱振軍第六案 修正動議增列第二項符合前項情形者除第七款外其取得之健保資料應與銷毀其餘同行政院版提案委員 王玉敏連署委員 陳昭芝 陳金輝 盧憲一 邱振軍 蘇清泉"},{"start":17007.39,"end":17035.83,"text":"第七案修正第四款假名化指健保資料經處理或加工後使其以通常方法不能識別其身份其餘同行證願版第五條第一項第五行增列並有團體代表及政府機關構其餘同行證願版第十一條"},{"start":17037.881,"end":17058.913,"text":"增列第四项,第一项及第二项申请由主管机关保险人分别邀集相关专家学者公民团体保险对象并有团体社会工作人士及政府机关各代表共同参与审查。第五项,前项专家学者公民团体并有团体及社会工作人士不得少于总数二分之一,任一性别不得少于总数三分之一。"},{"start":17060.174,"end":17088.636,"text":"第十四條 增列第三項 主管機關及保險人應定期公佈使用健保資料使用及目的外利用情形及其他相關資料第十七條 第一項 第二行改為以零貴郵寄或以網路線上方式其餘同行證券版 提案委員劉建國 聯署委員林淑芬王振旭第八案 第五條"},{"start":17091.667,"end":17103.576,"text":"第四行增列并有团体代表各至少二人以及其余同行政院版提案委员林淑芬联署委员王振旭刘建国林月琴第九案"},{"start":17105.39,"end":17131.903,"text":"第六條 增列第四項主管機關應指派副首長兼任健保資料保護長負責前項考核與資料保護相關事務並指派適當人員擔任健保資料保護集合人員協助辦理保護長及健保資料保護集合人員依法執行職務而予以不利之處分或管理措施辦理績效優良者應予獎勵提案委員林淑芬 聯署委員王振旭 劉建國 林月琴"},{"start":17135.974,"end":17136.323,"text":"第十案"},{"start":17138.427,"end":17166.929,"text":"第十條增列第四項第一項申請應用大量健保資料申請者應訂定使用管理規範其內容如下一資料使用目的及方式二資料接觸人員安全管理規範三資料事件預防通報及應變作業程序四資料收集之特定目的消失或期限屆滿時刪除停止處理或利用之程序提案委員林曙芬聯署委員王振旭劉建國林月琴"},{"start":17169.707,"end":17194.313,"text":"第十一案第十一条增列第四项第一项及第二项申请由主管机关保险人分别邀集相关专家学者公民团体保险对象社会公正人士及政府机关购代表共同参与审查前项专家学者公民团体及社会公正人士不得少于总数二分之一任意性别不得少于总数三分之一提案委员林淑芬联署委员王振旭刘建国林月琴"},{"start":17200.472,"end":17221.568,"text":"第十二案第十四條增列第四項主管機關或保險人對於一第十一條第一項申請利用應公開核准案件數與清澈及利用結果報告其餘同行政院版提案委員林淑芬聯署委員王正旭劉建國林月琴第十三案第十七條"},{"start":17223.171,"end":17249.517,"text":"增列第五項 第六項本條例實行期一個月內主管機關或保險人因停止健保資料一第十一條鎖定特定目的外利用當事人位於前項期間內請求停止利用視為同意其健保資料為特定目的外利用期間屆滿後當事人人得依第一項規定請求停止其健保資料之特定目的外利用提案委員林淑芬 聯署委員王振旭 盧憲一 林月琴"},{"start":17254.977,"end":17281.362,"text":"第十四案第十九條第一款修正為依第十條第一項規定主管機關或保險人有提供之義務其餘同行證券版提案委員林淑芬林淑芬王振旭劉建國林月琴第十五案第一條第一行第二行修正為為規範全民健康保險資料之儲存處理其餘同行證券版第二條"},{"start":17283.816,"end":17304.631,"text":"2.全民健康保险资料就储存处理利用及管理由个人资料保护委员会监督3.主管机关应会同个人资料保护委员会组成健保资料审议委员会以下简称审议会其任务如下1.审议主管机关及保险人为办理全民健康保险业务进行储存处理利用"},{"start":17305.572,"end":17332.394,"text":"及管理之目的要件範圍及方式二审议健保资料特定目的外利用之管理及监督政策法令拟定三审议健保资料特定目的外利用安全维护措施监督防护作为四申请特定目的外利用健保资料争议之处理五健保资料经当事人同意特定目的外利用或同意提供特定目的外利用争议之受理要件及审议方式六"},{"start":17333.274,"end":17357.455,"text":"协助主管机关就健保资料之特定目的外利用管理委托办理之辅导评估及监督期其他健保资料相关事项之审议第五条第一项修正为审议会至委员若干人由主管机关及个人资料保护委员会就医事等其余同行政院板第三项是修改为审议会之委员"},{"start":17360.902,"end":17379.468,"text":"名稱主席產生方式會議之召集出席決議議事運作其他相關事項是辦法由主管機關會同個人資料保護委員會定之第六條修正第四項主管機關應會同個人資料保護委員會定期其餘同行證券版第七條"},{"start":17381.482,"end":17405.367,"text":"增列第三項主管機關及保險人應會同個人資料保護委員會對第一項受託機構之利用及管理進行考核發現有應改善事項時應通知受託機構終止利用及管理並立即或限其改善藉其不改正者而終止其利用及管理第八條第一行修正申請經當事人同意特定其餘同行政院版第十六條"},{"start":17407.247,"end":17417.474,"text":"第一款 當事人得就其健保資料之全部或一部同意他人為特定目的外之利用第二款 前項同意之方式受理機關及其他相關事項"},{"start":17419.52,"end":17448.154,"text":"及同行政院版第十七條第一項修正第一項修正為保險人與當事人締結全民健康保險契約之條款應取得當事人同意使得由主管機關或保險人一第七條委託機構利用及管理健保資料或政府機關購行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構一第十條第十一條申請特定目的外使用第二項修正為當事人得隨時"},{"start":17451.192,"end":17477.357,"text":"第四項保險人受理第二項申請後第五項增列一個第二項停止特定目的外利用健保資料之種類範圍註記與通知之內容及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之其餘同行證券版第19條第一項第三行修正為非經個人資料保護委員會審查同意不得對外提供其餘同行證券版第20條"},{"start":17485.103,"end":17497.248,"text":"第二項修正為意圖危害國家安全或社會安定而犯前項之罪者處3年以上15年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣5000萬以下罰金其餘同行證頁滿第21條"},{"start":17502.898,"end":17529.096,"text":"第一项修正为对主管机关或保险人一第六条第一项所建置资料库之核心自通系统以下列方法之一危害其功能正常运作者处面以上十年以下有期徒刑得并克薪台币一千万以下罚金与同第三项修正意图危害国家安全或社会安定而犯前二项之罪者处三年以上十五年以下有期徒刑得并克薪台币五千万元以下罚金"},{"start":17530.077,"end":17535.018,"text":"其余同行政院版提案委员陈昭之联署委员陈金辉调为详宣读完毕"},{"start":17580.571,"end":17585.396,"text":"現在進行全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等兩案之主條審查"},{"start":17588.953,"end":17605.605,"text":"那審查室與法案無關的相關的行政官員可以先請離席這邊做一個宣告那每個條文每條條文先請行政單位來做說明那接著會請委員表示意見我們從華民生來開始討論來好全民健康保險資料管理條例"},{"start":17621.039,"end":17636.006,"text":"審查流程第一由本案條次將授權議事人員來做整理現在進行本案法案名稱條文的審查行政院的第一個條文的這個法案名稱來進行審查"},{"start":17647.134,"end":17658.428,"text":"現在有行政院的版本還有委員理念請等21人提案那法案名稱接同就是全民健康保險資料管理條例那這一題應該大家沒有意見吧"},{"start":17661.069,"end":17686.662,"text":"好有意見請問委員是曾卿發言針對第一條基本上這個名稱的部分是沒有什麼特別的意見不過早上也提過我這邊有提過附帶決議因為基本上這個名稱跟之前衛生福利資料是有一些蠻大的落差所以可以請主席同時來處理一下我們所提出來附帶決議"},{"start":17687.862,"end":17704.002,"text":"附帶決議的部分就是要建請衛生福利部在本法三讀通過以後持續來研議整體衛生福利資料管理法制法的可能性及時程並請於本法實施一年以後向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":17705.003,"end":17721.622,"text":"提交衛生福利資料管理法制法可行性與立法實審規劃書面報告以上的相關的這個附帶決議也請主席還有跟這個官員大家一起來確認一下這個附帶決議是不是可以通過以上"},{"start":17723.922,"end":17746.788,"text":"我跟王委員報告一下,基本上負債局應該是在最後才處理的啦,應該是這樣法案名稱來請陳委員,最後晚之後再請另外的陳委員好不好先讓他講嘛好不好,再等下再問你,謝謝主席不好意思,今天沒有大體討論嗎?就直接進入主條嗎?我們早上就是大體討論啊你昨天早上就進行大體討論了"},{"start":17747.847,"end":17753.235,"text":"沒有 早上執行就是啦 抱歉好 謝謝陳教授委員那接下來請陳營委員來做相關的詢問 詢答"},{"start":17760.322,"end":17787.056,"text":"那個我想接下來我是要請教那個部長跟我們的時署長因為今天我們召委安排的這個草案的這個有提到這個資料應用我想可以凸顯這個健康不平等的問題那因為署長過去也擔任過這個我們衛福部的文官長就是常務次長那我想要說先請教一下就是說"},{"start":17788.236,"end":17801.861,"text":"本期看了這個衛福部的網站在2025年的這個衛生福利政策白皮書署名是蔣秉煌部長提敘105年1月核定那因為明明現在是邱部長那怎麼會是這樣子那"},{"start":17806.163,"end":17824.682,"text":"這個是你們的慣例嗎就是說我們先畫一個十年的大餅然後做不到也不用負責任那所以如果現在邱部長就是說你現在做你們的政策白皮書是就是說是2035年才需要被檢驗的吧對不對如果說我們這樣往後推十年"},{"start":17825.262,"end":17842.391,"text":"那就是說這個蔣前部長核定的計畫指標那如果做不好邱部長是願意來擔這個責任嗎好我就先拋出這樣子一個還是部長有要做什麼回應部長來簡單來回應一下好不好"},{"start":17848.035,"end":17876.922,"text":"我想政策當然是延續的那所以好的政策我們繼續來做那覺得已經比較超過時宜的那我們當然就可能就不一定要做所以那個不好的就是部長就不願意來負這個責任我們就要把他換掉這樣子把他改掉其實我們已經從2016年開始就有很多各種不同的政策我們就按照新的政府他所"},{"start":17877.842,"end":17897.727,"text":"尊行的政策好那我想我今天把這個比較有趣的現象我拋出來因為大家沒有以前沒有去思考過那當然白皮書的訓練裡面有講到就是促進健康平等性延長國人健康與命是衛福部政策的重點那國人健康與命最低健康不平等性最高的族群應該就是我們"},{"start":17898.567,"end":17920.414,"text":"原住民的這個同胞啦齁那在這個2025年政策白皮書的內容看起來最後面確實是這個原住民的專章但是卻是107年7月核定的那這個時間上為什麼會有這樣落差這我們是慢了兩年多放進去喔那"},{"start":17921.315,"end":17938.892,"text":"這是不是也等於是一種健康不平等因為明明都是同樣2025年的白皮書核定時間差了兩年多我想這個重要的是說因為這已經是前後這個不同的這個執政黨那這樣的白皮書應該只有你們衛福部會出現我想過去你們都沒有發現這個問題吧"},{"start":17942.264,"end":17967.064,"text":"對不對我想這是一種進步啦那個107年它除了是一種進步也是一種奇特的現象啦我想重點是在後面啦就是我們2025年原住民專章的這個數據都是10年前的資料那唯一2025年跟2025年有關係的就是你們的長城目標值是定在2025年那現在6月了那我再麻煩部長給這個每一項的"},{"start":17967.805,"end":17989.745,"text":"指標的目標達成率你們這個禮拜提供給我們辦公室其實前面我提到的就是說還只是行政責任的不平等我比較關切的是你們現在規劃有沒有涉及到民眾健康不平等還有任何有關醫事行為的專業醫療服務人員有沒有受到不平等的問題"},{"start":17990.766,"end":18012.36,"text":"因為在先前呢我又有質詢過就是醫事放射師薪資過低的問題以及你們解釋他們說可以去打顯影劑的問題那今天呢我繼續從這個藥物過敏病人的權益來凸顯這裡面的健康不平等的問題那在2017年林口腸跟分析健保資料庫發表在這個"},{"start":18014.461,"end":18035.995,"text":"發表在這個Shark雜誌的這個研究顯示台灣每年大概有300名過敏性的休克案例其中高達八成是藥物過敏性休克嚴重的病例會死亡那關鍵在於出現了相關症狀如何緊急處理結果你們衛福部卻擴全顯影劑可以由醫事放射師來打因為我問過"},{"start":18037.076,"end":18054.262,"text":"他們的專業人員打顯影劑其實不困難但是關鍵在於藥物過敏生理反應的辨識跟緊急的處置因為在你們的這個法律依據是醫師法28條的第一項第二款那我想請教一下那個時署長"},{"start":18057.244,"end":18073.422,"text":"這個因為是想要請問一下前任的次長因為不具醫師資格而執行醫療業務所定的法則可以擴大解釋為只要醫師不願執行的業務都可以根據這條法律來授權出去嗎"},{"start":18074.443,"end":18094.481,"text":"好因為這條法律的這個目的明明就是任何非醫師資格的醫事人員去侵犯到醫師業務的執行權所這個應該接受懲罰的規定這裡面除了就是裡面排除了在醫師的監督下然後協助執行業務的其他醫事人員可以免罰但"},{"start":18095.282,"end":18116.127,"text":"目的是要免罰不是要擴權我必須要在這裡強調那因為責任還是在醫師結果你們把它就是說解釋成任何你們認定的醫療業務都可以交由非醫師來執行我想這樣子也算就不就是也是侵犯到民眾的健康的平等權嗎還有這個醫師的這個業務執行權"},{"start":18121.088,"end":18136.954,"text":"難道只是因為他們給付過低所以只好要求就要求這個最低薪的這個醫事放射師去做我想這樣子的解釋真的就是說有這個曲解法令草菅人命的感覺但是署長我要問署長如果萬一你要打顯影劑"},{"start":18138.794,"end":18160.17,"text":"你想要由醫師打還是醫師放射師打而且如果你知道這位醫師放射師告訴你說他沒有接受過打顯影技的養成教育訓練的時候也沒有打顯影技的經驗的時候你願意放心讓這樣的人去打嗎你放心嗎"},{"start":18163.315,"end":18192.444,"text":"你看如果有一點疑慮了那就證明健康不平等的一個真實存在因為你的身份我相信說今天一定會有醫師為你服務可是一般民眾應該沒有這樣的資源也不知道自己會不會對顯影劑過敏那萬一出現了這個過敏反應的時候那醫師方則是有能力處理嗎那有醫師的緊急跟照護治療是不是會更安全那這樣子就是說比較不會造成嚴重的後果"},{"start":18193.545,"end":18211.365,"text":"那我很快就是說我們看一下簡報這是中華民國放射科醫學會的專業手冊陳委員是不是請他們明確答覆你之後我們可能就要進行法條的處理好不好"},{"start":18213.627,"end":18237.685,"text":"好那是不是給他們回應一下快速回應好不好我想醫療是一個團隊剛剛您我們可以看前面那一張絕對沒有說所有的醫療業務都可以委託由非醫師來做不可能這麼擴淺這個都是有他哪些可以給不可能一個團隊全部都是所有的照護行為"},{"start":18238.766,"end":18263.086,"text":"都是醫師做 那我覺得醫師可能先做我想那個重點我們不是我們體恤醫師的辛勞現在這個重點在於說在於說這個有沒有但是醫師其實是要負責任如果是你監督之下做的醫師還是要負責任 不是由譬如說放射線師或是來做這個打針打進去這個動作"},{"start":18266.249,"end":18295.251,"text":"大概醫師是在監督下的那個醫師的監督我可以理解啦齁但是我現在重點講了嘛就是說如果你們堅持我也沒有說一定不行要反對怎麼樣齁因為剛剛有跟石署長請教石署長你說那個那個要打腺炎劑之前那個要請護理師都會軟管軟針都是護理師打都是護理師打嘛阿現在不是嘛"},{"start":18298.081,"end":18305.585,"text":"對啦我現在講的狀況就不是啦不是不是在打那個SET那個IV不是那個那個軟管軟管是護理師好啦事實上躺在那邊的時候就開始說不是啦"},{"start":18315.151,"end":18325.926,"text":"你都說嘛護理師打這個軟針的時候但是現在是放射是要去打嗎要去打那個藥進去那為什麼要打那個藥進去連那個軟針都是他們啦我現在講實際案例給你聽啦你不要"},{"start":18331.674,"end":18350.26,"text":"你不要抗拒 我在跟你說有其中一種情況沒有啦 那沒有關係如果真的人力缺乏怎麼樣那都沒有關係你們都可以看你們要怎麼調整就是說你們堅持就是說醫視放射師可以打血飲劑然後可以去"},{"start":18351.58,"end":18378.146,"text":"做到前面那些動作我是建議這樣子你們提高薪資及注射給付然後第二個實施養成教育訓練之後由國家發起證照然後最後修訂那個醫事放射師的業務職權這樣子才不會有健康不平等的問題我想就是以上這樣的訴求我簡單再回應一下就是其實我們已經跟放射線師跟市的協會已經有工會已經有討論過也請他們建議他們的一個"},{"start":18382.828,"end":18405.579,"text":"我們建議來我們會再跟相關的團隊再討論總是維護民眾品質但是又能夠運作的一個醫療對我現在講你們想要怎麼處理我都沒有意見那管這個環境跟薪資我們當然都會注重兩兆是不是這樣好不好你們不處之處是用書面的方式來做答覆好不好好謝謝兩兆謝謝"},{"start":18408.8,"end":18429.054,"text":"好 我們第一個法案名稱 各位委員有沒有其他意見那沒有 我們就照這個行政院對不起 陳委員現在是法案的名稱法案名稱沒有意見 好 謝謝那我們就依照行政院聯席人等委員所提的提案來通過來接下來處理第一條 請行政機關先來做說明"},{"start":18439.035,"end":18465.968,"text":"第一條我訂定的是為了落實憲判然後就健保資料就特定目的外的利用與疾管理制定來訂定本這個規範完備對人民資訊的隱私權保障所以呢這一條呢陳昭之委員有提出了一個修正動議把特定目的外改為儲存儲存處理利用啦那行政機關的建議是希望採用院版以上說明"},{"start":18467.865,"end":18486.85,"text":"好請陳委員說明來謝謝我想先跟大家說明今天早上程序發言我一再提醒衛福部跟健保署健保資料就是個人資料保護法要保護的國人隱私資料依照個人資料保護法第六條第一項但書第四款規定有關病歷醫療基因健康檢查"},{"start":18487.09,"end":18487.67,"text":"那憲法法庭在憲判制第13號判決主文就講明了"},{"start":18508.8,"end":18531.278,"text":"大法官認為這個規定這個規定跟法律是明確性的原則比喻原則尚屬無違不抵觸憲法第22條保障人民隱私的這個權之意旨這樣填寫一下我要說明說健保資料作為個人資料是需要受到嚴格保護的態度我相信衛福部自己也清楚但是早上我聽衛福部的跟這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處的組長說"},{"start":18534.178,"end":18537.061,"text":"大法官在限制判第13號的主文第三項的理由並沒有要求健保之下必須要有獨立監督機制所以目前草案的自議會就夠了坦白說我真的是驚呆了嚇呆了這個解讀很有問題"},{"start":18550.114,"end":18552.956,"text":"因為大法官要求的獨立監獄決定機構是在這個因為我要求做大體親民主張我親民不要資深委員欺負資全委員現在我們在講第一條跟你現在講的內容就不相干所以我要求大體發言那請你這真的不是大體發言了啊"},{"start":18569.489,"end":18576.313,"text":"你的條文版本跟院版的差異拿出來講啊監督機制要不要我們到後面可以來討論嗎現在是在討論這個法律的那個目的和宗旨立法的目的和宗旨你要獨立機制也可以到後面再討論"},{"start":18591.121,"end":18596.784,"text":"大法官講得很清楚大法官說的就是國人在各個機關內個人資料的利用跟管理需要設獨立監督機制因為它整個的架構是有問題的而這個機制是可以統籌性的獨立監督或是專業領域的獨立監督機制但我們今天審的法案裡面所設的議會設計上就不獨立"},{"start":18612.572,"end":18621.946,"text":"為什麼不獨立因為委員是兼任的而且有機關代表有機關代表請問要怎麼獨立你自己的版本裡面有獨立監督機制嗎你自己的版本現在裡面有獨立監督機制嗎陳委員你自己也有提版本你的版本裡面有獨立監督機制嗎"},{"start":18629.075,"end":18635.421,"text":"你自己的版本都沒有獨立監督機制了你去提一個修正動議來我們就跟年輕的委員跟年輕之聲無關啦就是論事這麼難嗎就是論事這麼難嗎你自己的版本都沒有獨立監督機制獨立監督機制怎麼設你拿你的修正動議拿出來看啊現在第一條在談立法的旨意終止任務"},{"start":18652.455,"end":18659.56,"text":"第一條你的版本裡面有沒有獨立監督機制的精神在裡面你的版本都沒有你今天沒有他這樣"},{"start":18660.703,"end":18684.563,"text":"你現在無限上綱我們怎麼討論我們的條文怎麼聚焦呢我現在每一條都要求保留但是我現在把我的精神要把我的精神告訴他希望有機會做選擇你把你的獨立監督機制的條文擬出來目前台灣完全沒有這個你現在把你的獨立監督機制的條文擬出來再說退出才是典型的國家霸權規定再說退出以前不是說我先用你你有意見再退出而是我要先徵求你的同意"},{"start":18685.083,"end":18701.943,"text":"你要先終求這個後面的第十條第十一條後面來討論你在第一條人家講立法的宗旨你在講熱帶秋歡講得很清楚我們現在是主條討論欸第二條在討論立法的宗旨剛剛就有人質詢了不要再跟我說了我們在討論第一條你在跟我們討論第十條"},{"start":18704.366,"end":18708.407,"text":"我們在討論第一條你要見後面我們怎麼討論主席 這樣怎麼聚焦怎麼討論大法官判決對於欠缺健保法79條80的相反的欠缺明確規定 這是犯法的不符現大法官處以說這個健保法79辦法是不符現的違反第22條 保障人民隱私權"},{"start":18729.653,"end":18742.391,"text":"第十九條是天花亂墜在講第一條個人事業保護第六條對敏感性真正本來就有限制用途所以這整個法的架構是出了問題這整個法的品質跟架構是出了問題那哪裏的版本來啊"},{"start":18746.392,"end":18757.821,"text":"這個行政院的版本我也不滿意啊我也認為有問題啊那你拿你的修正動議或拿你的正式條文你的版本來你的版本跟行政院架構跟版本幾乎都一模一樣欸你的修正動議跟行政院的版本架構都一樣欸你拿不出你"},{"start":18765.146,"end":18781.213,"text":"剛才電話亂墜講的那一個版本啦主席你剛才電話亂墜扯了一堆你自己版本拿不出來啦謝謝兩位委員能我能我處理一下好不好對不起啦給我講話人家在討論第一條他在跟人家討論第十條第十二條第十四條"},{"start":18782.478,"end":18784.5,"text":"我們是要主條審查好不好主條審查他還在做質詢還在大體詢答我們一開始立法的旨意就是要在第一條講清楚今天前頭開始"},{"start":18797.609,"end":18803.674,"text":"那請教陳委員你的意見要怎麼修才對你會不會唸出來因為你的修正動議跟你剛才講的內容完全不一樣請問陳大委員你的修正動議你認為怎麼立你的文字可不可以拿出來分享給我們知道和我們比拼一下可以嗎你的高見拿出來和我們比拼一下可以嗎"},{"start":18823.642,"end":18838.36,"text":"來 陳委員是有第一條修正動議他是跟有別語行政院他的內容跟他剛剛講的不一樣對啦 條文是只有差異要多增加儲存跟處理那行政機關的意見是希望可以照院版那我們是就這個部分來做討論好不好"},{"start":18839.762,"end":18862.817,"text":"陳委員我具體給你建議因為你自己說的嘛資料處理各自保護法開宗明義宣誓的就是在談資料的收集處理和利用所以你這個儲存也不用因為不可能儲存所以你若要修正也要說為了規範全民健保資料的收集處理利用及管理這樣放也比較合理你給一個什麼儲存什麼是儲存我們不允許儲存啊"},{"start":18866.319,"end":18881.533,"text":"主席我們是因為把特定目的之外那幾個字拿掉我們是拿掉了特定目的外拿掉所以我們就比較清楚的去說明法條的第一條我們的修正的這個建議是現在的那你的儲存要不要儲存處理利用及管理我建議要加收集收集處理利用及管理"},{"start":18893.951,"end":18914.144,"text":"要放你的儲存不如人各自保護法就是說收集那個我是不是說明一下因為這個健保的資料在墓地內那其實都是依法職權法定職權所以健保資料的收集"},{"start":18915.204,"end":18938.877,"text":"處理在健保法的規範裡面它其實早有法律的依據那現在在處理的是屬於目的外的利用這個也就是憲判裡面的重點所以我們是建議在這個範圍就是呼應這個憲判的要求所以把這個第一條的立法目的那麼規範在目的外之利用"},{"start":18939.957,"end":18966.851,"text":"那至於那個是沒有收集的這個法不會涉及到另外再去收集儲存都不會有那個收集儲存是健保署本於健保法去收集儲存的收集儲存是你們目的內使用的時候本來就允許了但我們現在規範的是目的外使用目的外使用就不允許儲存和收集了對就是這個意思"},{"start":18970.875,"end":18985.133,"text":"第13號理由他的負責審議不僅是特定目的外利用也要審議目前衛福部跟健保署為了辦理全民健保業務所進行的儲存處理利用及管理的目的要件範圍及方式"},{"start":18985.994,"end":19004.749,"text":"這個在釋憲裡面沒有啦 陳委員我再跟你建議一下那你這樣要放進去也可以可是你整部法律的後面每一條條文都沒有在規範目的內使用你整部法的條文都是在規你第一條以外26條都在規範目的目的外使用啊你沒有半條在規範目的內來對啊我真的本來我也不需要對你個別來回覆啦但是第四條啦第四條請你看一下"},{"start":19015.898,"end":19027.085,"text":"第四條以外名詞定義下面都有寫啦第四條的第一項啦你的第四條還是不好意思是我的修正案啦修正動議這邊有個修正動議你第四條是要怎麼規範目的內"},{"start":19032.782,"end":19059.28,"text":"如果你想了解就是這裡啦不是啦 因為我們第一次看到你的版本啊所以你講給我們聽嘛你剛才解說給我們聽啊主管機關應會同個人資料保護委員會組成這個剛剛因為我強調的組成這個審議委員會其任務如下第一個 第一條就提到了審議主管機關機保險人為辦理全民健保業務進行儲存 處理 利用及管理之目的要進行範圍及方式就是在第四條我的修正動議第四條就有對應的這個文字"},{"start":19066.7,"end":19079.32,"text":"這個審議會是要審目的外利用的審議目的內的審議他們自己健保會就有自己的審議組織了但是這是這個 這種步伐 憲判制這一次要求的是是這樣子做的"},{"start":19084.126,"end":19097.096,"text":"目的內使用現在既有的體制就有很多規範了啊但是不符合健保法裡面現在執行的才會有這條的宣判嘛就管理的架構應該是如果現在目的"},{"start":19098.436,"end":19126.623,"text":"內使用的話不合理的不完備的應該放到這個墓地內使用的那個法律去規範完備它去修正這一部法就是專門規範墓地外使用的所以架構應該是這樣子比較清楚是不是可以允許可以允許對於墓地內使用的如果有不足的現行法規有不夠的我們回到原來的健保法裡面去修正它不要在這裡"},{"start":19127.503,"end":19132.108,"text":"我覺得如果是剛剛衛福部署長講的那你的名稱定為全民健康保險資料管理條例這樣也是有問題"},{"start":19144.561,"end":19165.517,"text":"因為你的你剛剛特別去區分說目的內跟目的外但你的名稱是全民健康保險資料管理條例這一看名稱就會覺得是偷偷的所有資料的管理那你們這樣子訂的好像不可以修正譬如說將它修正成全民健康保險資料目的外使用管理條例"},{"start":19167.237,"end":19183.912,"text":"這樣子就是把那個名稱改成我們專門就是for目的外使用的可以啦那名稱改一下啦這樣陳委員就可以比較具體了那謝謝你了我就主席我可以再發言因為我要強調今天我們會有這個討論就是因為大法官做了一些判決"},{"start":19184.673,"end":19213.416,"text":"那大法官判決理由寫得很清楚建保法第79條第80條這個等等的欠缺明確的規定在這範圍內不符憲法第23條的法律保障原則是要分而且也違反憲法第22條所以我的重點在於說你建保法用這個大法官的判決它已經有一些是違憲跟不符合憲法的情況下所以是因為我們根據這個今天才要來處理這個管理條例就總許我這樣說明"},{"start":19215.154,"end":19234.902,"text":"我這邊跟各位做一個補充跟建議基本上這一個法案的名稱我相信衛福部也應該跟行政院有所溝通嘛那當時為什麼會這樣的名稱現在因一個目的外之後你就必須要再去修正名稱這個有時候這個不是簡單的問題這代表你有保釋"},{"start":19238.891,"end":19263.896,"text":"是你偷懶是嗎?還是你自己在中?沒有啦 這沒什麼想到沒想到你要去思考一件事情啦因為這個法案已經通過院會之後然後再經過一讀然後再進到委員會來審查你們現在把法案的名稱就這樣去做修改你們要站得住腳 這第一點那第二點全民健康保險資料管理條例"},{"start":19265.177,"end":19277.776,"text":"所謂的應該管理條例是講total不是講當然你的第一條就要變成所謂的這個特定目的之外對不對那當時為什麼你們沒有去思考到法案名稱這樣是不對的"},{"start":19286.523,"end":19302.458,"text":"趙偉跟委員報告其實我們本來在布裡面的條文法規會的建議也是用目的外利用有這幾個字但是在行政院討論的時候怕對外界一般的民眾不理解所以讓這個法規的名稱比較容易理解"},{"start":19302.998,"end":19322.13,"text":"那他真正的目的呢寫在第一條裡面去明定他所以當時候在行政院討論的時候是有這個過程啦OK好這個就對了因為對不起我只是補充一點很少有那個法案的名稱什麼叫做目的外什麼什麼之外"},{"start":19322.83,"end":19347.595,"text":"我是要提醒各位 是這個樣子不是說可以改或不可以改 或是大家在這裡有經驗的話 跟大家做參觀而已來請 請各位人來有其他的補救措施 因為剛剛委員提到說大法官判決79 第80條是不符合憲法的 那也違反第22條憲法然後他有講到一點 相關機關因自本判決宣示日期三年內修正全民健康保險法"},{"start":19349.255,"end":19373.641,"text":"或其他相關法例或制定專法名字就是說你這個地方要怎麼處理但我們沒有同步看到這個東西啊原來就不合法但我們今天如果大家認為要討論特定我們怎麼知道他會修或處理呢"},{"start":19375.977,"end":19391.628,"text":"大法官是兩邊都談到啦大法官說是叫體制內 目的內的就是修建保法蔣委員你講的是對 他們現在在進行也對其實你們並不衝突 但是可能理解上的落差啦那睡十分鐘好不好 好我講一下啦"},{"start":19392.068,"end":19401.76,"text":"好不好 有一些委員有可能跟我們 其實目標是一樣的但是可能倫理上有落差是不是說不清楚 我覺得這樣要寫會比較好寫啦 好不好好 謝謝啦 抱歉 休個十分鐘好不好 謝謝"},{"start":19412.003,"end":19413.464,"text":"第一點講的是說我們提供這個"},{"start":19428.032,"end":19456.403,"text":"就是要去做陸地外的使用五用各支法第六條第一項但書第四環這個不當作違憲他說這個OK啦這個沒有違憲他是根據的法是那個各支法的第六條的但書第四環OK啦這沒問題啦沒問題但是第二個是說個人資料保護法或其他法律是有缺乏獨立的這個人家跟我說"},{"start":19457.645,"end":19468.087,"text":"監督機制不夠啦獨立監督機制不夠啦這個是全部資料是針對健保資料在這個下面所以這個是另外一個所以這一次要處理的是第三點跟第四點的指紋"},{"start":19486.65,"end":19503.396,"text":"第三點是說你這個缺乏法律明確原則所以沒有一個專法所以我們才定這個這個就是要對外提供但是你發明那個治癒機關你又來那個治癒機關就是你在管的啊不不不 那個治癒機關只是審查而已"},{"start":19504.456,"end":19520.368,"text":"稅刑這一個對外提供的主體目的要件範圍方式等等的監督機制所以這要下在這個法律裡頭第四個才是匯出權因為你們原本按照7.9條法律要去撤退"},{"start":19529.614,"end":19546.188,"text":"所以才有這個法出來嘛 就是說不足啦79條80條的規範不足啦 符這個法律保留原則所以才叫我們要嘛你去修法 要嘛你去專法後來就決定專法如果這樣有跟什麼目的外"},{"start":19555.035,"end":19563.142,"text":"是在對外提供啊要看後面理由就是健保組對於健保資料的儲存處理對外產生對外產生的問題你要看後面這個啊是主理啊這樣傳出你在第七條就有寫了"},{"start":19581.079,"end":19590.028,"text":"要見範圍及方式都在這裡對外提供也不只是目的目的內或目的外我們有依法提供其他單位"},{"start":19599.598,"end":19614.496,"text":"法務部要來跟我們調監察院要來跟我們這個都是對外提供所以我們才會在第10條是對其他的政府機關要求健保提供資料的我們有一個規範第11條是目的外利用"},{"start":19615.217,"end":19631.845,"text":"研究各種的學術單位啊 醫院那個是第11條規範所以都是在處理家啊 有啊我們會在第6條也寫清楚因為儲存雖然是在健保署所以我們在第6條條文都有寫那是知科中心啊那個有一些規範後面條文都有寫第5條第6條大法官一個檢視 你把它切開來"},{"start":19645.011,"end":19668.482,"text":"沒有這種大法官的解釋一起三選一啦大法官也三選一啊那你這些資料你這些資料你這些資料為什麼你今天我要一個獨立監獄獨立監獄就是在這邊啊就是我們做智慧的早上就是你回到好像一部都不像你是不是這個什麼籌備處的對對對對對 做資保護保護委員會啊看不到獨立制"},{"start":19670.323,"end":19696.086,"text":"獨立機制 建築機制的東西出來 完全沒有啊現在行政院那邊 我們設籌備處就是在籌設各組委員會我們早上有提到組資法的部分就是資法保護委員會跟經濟委員會有聯繫目前已經是組委員會了那其實還沒有成立 就論你們這個 因為那個都沒有 你這個要考這個委員這裡面有一個所謂退出選當然很急啊 退出選就比較可怕我們沒辦法執行啊"},{"start":19697.114,"end":19723.982,"text":"退出權的部分本來就沒有影響那一個體制那你還沒來 我也沒帶老闆你到最後關頭你才要處理啊時間的考慮時間的考慮 大家都會用比較品質不好的你對我良知過不去啊我的專業良知過不去啊就是在委員會大家去討論討論討論這個退出權的機制還有這個授權的法規把它弄清楚這個是全國性的各自保護這個是另外一個"},{"start":19725.702,"end":19725.863,"text":"這個獨立機關的組織條例"},{"start":19745.863,"end":19751.926,"text":"現在我們已經決定要做統籌他有兩個選項 貨 還有個貨所以他這個是統籌 只是獨立就是現在選擇貨的前面這個 選擇貨的後面"},{"start":19768.635,"end":19775.699,"text":"現在行政院的政策是分開的那那個運鏡什麼時候要完成?希望法治委員會已經通過了送到立院了嗎?已經送出委員會"},{"start":19790.786,"end":19812.792,"text":"我也一直在提這個 你們要跟他各自保護人員因為我們各自會他是一個獨立監督機關那如果說這邊我們進來自己跳下去管這個資料庫他其實全世界沒有一個各自的獨立監督機關是自己下去管個別的資料庫他其實會變成是"},{"start":19813.472,"end":19837.294,"text":"現在是要去做監督就是我們的角色不一樣 那個執事會它是它的組織內的一個監督保護組織在祖文山那邊 它其實大法官沒有針對署上的監督保護組織說要阻力而是說祖文鶴要整體性的一個獨立監督機制 這個就是我們各執委那我們各執委它本來在做監督 它不會自己跳下去管各個資料"},{"start":19839.015,"end":19859.421,"text":"我們除了去監督未來的公務機關 比如說現在大家很關心這個內政部門的故意政系統我們不可能說每一個 就是因為我們本來就要去做監督所以各自法裡面就要去針對公務機關我們不讓他管啊就是公務機關我們本來 未來各自會就會全部都要去做監督你這邊 如果把他問你們 你們為什麼搞這麼久啊"},{"start":19867.524,"end":19881.481,"text":"這個你搞這麼久啊 現在下面再跑了我當然 你就我 憑我的良知我也是很每天都很拼很快很多資料你從頭到尾那個問題都還沒有解決你下面就要開始跑了那我 我怎麼 你要我怎麼做你怎麼信任 我怎麼處理"},{"start":19882.902,"end":19901.917,"text":"對嘛 你也承認嘛根本還沒有上面那個蓋的那個鋼那你下面那個繩子就要開始跑了那你說叫我怎麼去面對這件事這個法案應該主要是針對健保服務員的用但是我們各執法跟各智慧組織法它是另外一塊那個端子我覺得還是可以討論"},{"start":19903.078,"end":19931.225,"text":"因為沒有那麼充足那因為委員陸續還有一些想法加進來但是也不要開太快的快程就是我建議今天討論之後還是要再寫上好不好那委員再回去思考之後有一些東西讓它更完整對 然後又可以符合你們原來的期程我覺得這樣是最好好不好就是我們可以邊討論然後邊走但是也不是今天就喔 沒辦法 沒辦法然後大家都不要討論就過去了這樣子 對"},{"start":19932.586,"end":19939.192,"text":"對 然後還要再教學長好不好去年3月1號就有衛生會知道預告版本"},{"start":19949.241,"end":19951.242,"text":"那你們是脫鉤其他就是另外要再處理嗎"},{"start":19969.65,"end":19981.345,"text":"所以剛剛王正希委員才提啊說一年內要去檢討衛生系的資料對啊 因為憲判裡面也有提到你們其他資料的關係啊如果來這幾招我是覺得可以不用那麼急"},{"start":19984.825,"end":19987.227,"text":"讓大家還有時間再討論該討論的還是討論的但是不要開快車"},{"start":20017.809,"end":20023.715,"text":"還要開到半夜的"},{"start":20031.301,"end":20047.078,"text":"好 謝謝很多委員很懷念過去的時段當然我們審查法案尤其是制定新法我相信各位委員都有一定程度這樣的經驗大家都很清楚這個審查法案"},{"start":20048.74,"end":20065.33,"text":"不一定法案通過之後會萬事流亡但是我們絕對不能因為有所散失造成遺臭萬年所以審查法案我們要保持清醒然後情緒要一定程度的這樣的一個穩定然後我們法案也不會急救張"},{"start":20066.49,"end":20088.819,"text":"也不會出操所以要很慎重的了解法案的本質是什麼我們來修這個法案才可以為人民百姓創造更好的制度我想這個大家都很清楚所以各位不用擔心會開什麼快車還是說會急救張把這個法案去做處理但是可能大家對為什麼今天行政院"},{"start":20089.779,"end":20113.755,"text":"迫切的需要提這個法案然後排入委員來做審查確實有現辦法庭的這樣一個時間上的問題這個請各位也可以多加的理解跟體諒那我們還是一條一條來主條討論討論到大家有共識我們才會通過嘛如果有意見我們一樣還是會保留甚至我們可以處理兩輪的這個法案的討論的這樣的一個程序"},{"start":20116.092,"end":20145.135,"text":"所以各位可以尽所的表达各位对这个法案的一个各个法条的这样的一个见解啦好那现在我们一样是处理回归兜头就是处理第一条嘛对不对那第一条是这样有没有沟通达成一定程度的共识还是怎样请丑委员好第一条丑委员建立保留各位有没有其他意见没有好那我们就接续第二条请行政机关先表达意见问候部表决意见"},{"start":20146.158,"end":20173.817,"text":"第二條明訂的是本條例的主管機關委員會服務那陳昭之委員裡面又有在第二項增加了健保資料的儲存處理利用及管理由個人資料保護委員監督那這個部分我們剛好跟委員說明是不是是不是因為那個個資保安會那個是主文二裡面去成立對所有資料的監督機制所以是不是這個條"},{"start":20175.099,"end":20180.628,"text":"第一條開宗明義就保留第二條怎麼可能就這樣又過開宗明義的第一條就是"},{"start":20181.867,"end":20208.515,"text":"所以我這邊補充一下啦剛剛為什麼要休10分鐘希望衛務部健保署可以跟趙志偉做一個這樣的一個說明跟溝通啦因為第一條含保留是大家沒有意見嘛我當然也不會主席不一定就會遵循大家的意見為意見嘛但是你的第一條會延續下來是每一個條文都會有牽動到所以如果第一條保留你可能你要去通過你的版本的任何一條可能就會有困難度"},{"start":20210.296,"end":20234.636,"text":"所以才會讓石文聰給你們溝通啊如果溝通這樣就顯然無效喔好請林委員這個我們還是持不同的意見就是說特定目的內的目的內使用的去修建保法就憲判是這樣子講的也是建議去修建保法那我們這裡就這部法這整部法的架構就是專心於規範讓未來要人民"},{"start":20238.019,"end":20248.267,"text":"看一個法律的可敬性要高嘛可敬性要高那你就是讓人民很輕易的理解到這部法律純粹規範的就是健保資料原始目的外的利用的規範就是在這一部法律你把這一部法律又有"},{"start":20255.553,"end":20274.825,"text":"又有墓地內使用的規範又有墓地外的使用的規範那麼會造成幾個法律分散 士權不同一然後會讓使用人民要看這個法律的時候他會搞不清楚我要研究墓地內使用又要符合健保法還要去符合這個"},{"start":20277.566,"end":20301.058,"text":"目的外使用的這個為主的全民健康保險資料管理條例反而讓事權分散法律分散這個不利於人民使用法律的可敬性啊這個是製造了讓人民更搞不清楚因為人民以為目的內使用就專心focus在健保法就好了我把健保法搞通了大概法律的規範就通了"},{"start":20302.179,"end":20327.951,"text":"沒想到還有分散在這個地方的而且就只有那一兩條或兩三條這樣子是不合理的架構 老實說所以我們才說 憲判這個要求我們一定要對既有的健保法對墓地內使用這個墓地內使用也管理得稀稀烙烙法制面也沒搞這個我們同意但是是請修在健保法的架構是這樣子啦"},{"start":20331.055,"end":20338.098,"text":"好 我簡單補充說明一下其實第二條很清楚就是說這個條例的主管機關是誰就只有這樣 簡單講是這樣當然陳委員有增加一項其實這個就是應對你的第一條"},{"start":20346.642,"end":20363.326,"text":"但是其實這個是不是在法律的文字上有需要做這樣的處理嗎這個就請你思考一下好來請你委員剛剛主席又點了一個很清楚就是說通常這裡在講的是目的事業主管機關是誰主管機關是衛福部那我們立法的體力來講立法的體力沒有人在講主管機關的時候又塞了一個"},{"start":20378.43,"end":20406.536,"text":"要做什麼啦這一個監督會還是叫什麼保護會的這個東西這個算是一個組織啦老實說由個人資料保護委員會監督齁這個這是作用法的文字內容那也涉及到組織那跟我們第二條的宗旨第二條的條文要規範的就是誰主管這個地方啦誰主管這部法律啦啊就是衛福部啊你娘"},{"start":20407.796,"end":20414.739,"text":"你再給一個這個出來,他不是主管這部法律的,你把這個組織放在這裡,立法體力顯有不妥啦好,來請陳委員"},{"start":20421.212,"end":20446.711,"text":"主席第二條我不只如此我還加了個人資料保護委員會的這個有這個來監督啦我雖然有人要笑我但是我也請教過我也很認真請教過一個個資法的專家啦他不是跟你請教啦 他是跟你提出說立法裡面的這個法律的架構沒有人塞在這裡你可以設置但也不是塞在這一條"},{"start":20447.572,"end":20461.438,"text":"要塞也應該是要看要塞在第四條後面看要再長第五條應該是塞在第四條第五條如果你真的堅持的話而不是放在說人家在說這個畫下來主觀機關是什麼這個畫下來主觀機關是衛福部但是我要設一個什麼東西"},{"start":20467.301,"end":20470.345,"text":"不是只設一個委員會 還有其他知議會也有設其他知議會要從下嗎 難道還要寫在第二條嗎我第二條 照你們的邏輯 我應該講說啊這個要目的外使用的審查 應該要設置一個知議會那照你的邏輯也應該寫在這裡啊"},{"start":20486.485,"end":20502.2,"text":"所以你這個邏輯應該塞在第四條或第五條第二條就合一規這樣比較合邏輯今天我們有一個就是大家我個人跟大家有一些就是強調早上我質詢也講得非常清楚因為我一直強調那個大法官才是一個獨立的監督機制"},{"start":20505.022,"end":20522.418,"text":"我是希望說能夠把這個最高那個最高國家現在跑到就是在二讀的這個地方個人資料保護委員會來監督啦所以我覺得這次如果沒有機會把他這個放進去那我覺得未來我也沒有沒有信心啦沒有信心就是說這個就停留在衛福部的這個這個層次那這樣所有的那個獨立機構就大法官才是個重點就不會再進來了啦但沒有機會再進來了"},{"start":20530.865,"end":20560.354,"text":"所以我其實是有我的一致性就是說我是希望如此如果真的沒有我還是不好意思還是保留主席委員各支會籌備處我這邊說明一下因為我們各支會他本來就是在依照各支會組織法以及各支法部分條件修正草案他其實未來他會去監督所有的公務機關包含這邊的全民健保的資料以及大家目前也很關心比如說像內政部的戶籍資料"},{"start":20560.774,"end":20585.875,"text":"那如果說我們在這個健保條例這個第二條第二項去規定全民健保資料由各自會監督他這個其實會有點就是說好像民事其一排除其他的誤解啦其實我們未來各自會本來他就是會去統籌去監督管理所有的公務機關的這個各自保護的事務所以這個部分應該是不需要在這邊去定以免造成誤解以上說明"},{"start":20586.195,"end":20603.306,"text":"如果這裡不寫的話剛剛林委員提到的那個觀念就你自己說的各自保護的那委員監督你放在第四條嗎第四條我自己也放囉主管機關應該會同各自保護會組成這個健保資料審議委員會"},{"start":20605.207,"end":20625.078,"text":"是因為就我剛剛說明了就是說我們未來會有各支會的組織法跟各支法那各支會他就是會是各支法的主管機關他包含他會去監督這個公務機關跟非公務機關我們目前各支法的這個部分條例修正法案都有明確的這樣的規定所以是不需要在個別的每一個"},{"start":20625.778,"end":20639.634,"text":"有關個資的這些法律都特別再去訂說個資會要去監督因為這樣其實會訂不完所以我們這邊如果去訂反而會讓人家覺得好像我們只管健保而不是管所有的公務機關那這邊第4條跟第5條"},{"start":20640.955,"end":20657.442,"text":"因為他這邊主要是涉及到這個健保資料庫的這個相關的一些管理那因為我們剛剛講了個資會他是一個獨立監督機關他是獨立機關他主要是做監督而不是自己跳下去做資料庫的管理"},{"start":20657.842,"end":20676.896,"text":"如果他自己跳下去做資料庫的管理那反而會變成是有利害衝突他沒辦法獨立監督所以全世界沒有一個個資的獨立監督機關他自己跳下去去管個別的資料庫所以這個部分可能還要再請委員再斟酌謝謝你的個資保護委員這個位置在哪個地方"},{"start":20677.816,"end":20699.156,"text":"是空的嗎是想的嗎是想當然而嗎就是我剛剛講就是在個資法裡面我們都有去規定說個資會他的他是主管機關他會去就公務機關比如說他會去做集合他會去做行政檢查他如果說發現有公務機關有缺失他會去命他改善等等的他會有相關的職權在個資法裡面"},{"start":20701.278,"end":20717.382,"text":"那你這次對判決主文就是選擇性的來處理就對了不是不是因為判決主文二它本來就是一個就我們全國的這個個資保護獨立監督它是一個整體性的它不是單獨就健保資料它其實它是更廣的"},{"start":20718.721,"end":20743.81,"text":"我來試著說明好不好 總委因為早上你在大體巡討的時候我有特別聽到你有對部長做這樣的推詢就是說你這個要針對各自的保護的部分然後醫護在你衛護部還是聽你衛護部的話你有講這句話對不對 好那現在林組長答呼你的其實各自的管理基本上會成立一個你期待的叫做獨立機關來督促所有各部會"},{"start":20744.81,"end":20764.401,"text":"相關的法律相關的個人資料的這樣的一個權責產生這反而是符合你早上垂涎的期待嘛那你現在硬要把它放在這裡面基本上反而會落入你早上尋塔的這樣的衝突喔我是做這樣提醒啦早上我問的自議會的功能什麼他們沒有人敢回答喔"},{"start":20765.001,"end":20773.59,"text":"知議會是不是諮詢機關是詢問機關他有沒有調閱權他有沒有對於他的建議有沒有約束權等等沒有人敢回答知議的定義諮詢"},{"start":20775.819,"end":20796.677,"text":"然後後面那個是什麼 你裡面的資議的定義是什麼因為資議委員基本上就不是對嘛 它是諮詢建議嘛所以不是所謂打不打的問題是你第一個你是要管好這些個人各自的這樣的一個範疇那資議的部分基本上是在跟這個範疇裡面是不太一樣的一個範圍啦應該這麼解釋才對啦"},{"start":20799.659,"end":20820.351,"text":"早上部長好像說因為東西很多啦這個資義委員會就是說我一聽其實更快昏倒了他說因為案件會很多資料很多那先有一個第一步的什麼做法然後才會送到這個資義委員會來我覺得這個今天我們在處理這個法案因為很多所以我們沒辦法處理沒關係啦你剛才你的煩惱跟你的祈禱我是這樣說明給你聽你再說多一下好不好來請王委員王委員謝謝主席讓我有機會也針對第二條來做發言"},{"start":20829.837,"end":20849.087,"text":"剛剛那個郁佳組長嘛郁佳組長是個人保護資料保護委員會的那個組長林郁佳林組長他有提到就是如果包括剛剛趙助委員所提到全民健康保險資料的儲存處理利用與管理"},{"start":20850.947,"end":20874.775,"text":"將來如果我們透過剛剛講的個人資料保護委員會裡面能夠把這些內容也同時處理的話事實上是可以不用在第二條裡面再明定第二項因為這些內容事實上都有其他的單位來做必要的保護跟處理所以我想如果衛福部這邊我們"},{"start":20876.155,"end":20894.88,"text":"明定為本條例的主管機關為衛生福利部可是剛剛趙志偉所擔心的那些內容是不是能夠被有效的來監督來保護我們已經有另外個人資料保護委員會來處理的話事實上是不需要跌闖架屋做不必要的這些增加跟規範為什麼憲法法庭會說你統籌的獨立監督機構你也可以是有一個統籌的有個個別的都可以選擇"},{"start":20902.842,"end":20920.139,"text":"但他並不是說有一個統籌的個人資料保衛人會就不用有個別的喔但那個憲法的那個判決不是這樣說的喔那健保資料這麼重要那我們現在這麼急就只能用院版去做微調他的意思寫得很清楚喔那個判決說得很清楚非常清楚喔"},{"start":20921.121,"end":20931.452,"text":"陳委員我可以跟你建議你看一下我們修正版本的第六條就是說如果照行政院或者是整個未來個人資料保護的這個組織的架構裡面"},{"start":20935.857,"end":20958.082,"text":"顯然憲法法庭是講一個就是說你在統籌全部的政府機關然後設置一個獨立的組織然後來做所有法制面的整理那我們就配套在這個裡面第六條修正動力就是增設一個健保資料保護長然後要負責去考核跟資料保護相關的事務當然它的架構就是在"},{"start":20963.183,"end":20983.401,"text":"在這個衛福部之下主管機關之下不過如果是這樣子的話至少有一個類似你的你說的那一種那一種以健保資料保護集合然後為核心的一個人員在那裡有可以克責的對象"},{"start":20985.792,"end":21004.446,"text":"謝謝林委員但是主管機關指派那就是衛福部指派對啦所以我就跟你講說他的問題就是他是在衛福部之下對啊但是你要在他之上那就是在行政院的層級啦那你要在他之上行政院的層級就是我們那個各支委員會啦"},{"start":21006.906,"end":21034.365,"text":"他們到時候各支委員會一定會依據這個相關的法律然後一定會苛責各部會要去進行叫各支委員會從要出的人出來講這我再補充一下陳委員這個你倒不用擔心沒有所謂之上之下就一定衛務部可以去一定要全部百分之百聽衛務部的像勞動部底下勞金局他要去投資任何的股票不是部長可以決定怎麼樣就怎麼樣的"},{"start":21036.192,"end":21061.038,"text":"那個機制如果得到的話建保署我知道很多人不曉得我講這個但那麼久我建保署所有的委員會之一委員會都最後做主的就是建保署本身啦我都很清楚他的之一委員會所有就是建保署就是說那我們被建保署永遠的執政黨永遠的執政黨做起來的確看起來是那樣子沒有錯最後都是你們決定的啦哪些案子是怎麼樣就都你們決定啦"},{"start":21063.712,"end":21086.252,"text":"沒有啦我現在也不是因為他是被蓋瓜承受嘛他也是擔了兩年多的就是說但是事實就是如此嘛健保署就是健保署同管嘛就是同管啊不是那我們回到第二條來講就是說理論上從立法的架構法律的架構也不要把這一段塞在第二條裡面那讓第二條先通過"},{"start":21087.974,"end":21114.434,"text":"這應該不是一件難事你可以想要塞在哪裡不是說我們就反對你的看法你的看法我們也支持但是立法的架構它就不適當不應該塞在第二條現在我們在主條討論是討論這樣子的問題並不是反對你的看法或不支持憲法法庭所認為的不是而是法律要立"},{"start":21115.675,"end":21141.974,"text":"要立也有一些法律的整個架構的問題啊法律的架構怎麼書寫是有一定的邏輯和一定的規則的啊那跟第二條那李委員你這樣講那第二條我裡面談的東西如果我在別的地方在其他的在其他條裡面寫出這樣的做法你是不是在後面幾條裡面可以保留你第二條可以先通過"},{"start":21146.465,"end":21155.82,"text":"第二條主要還是要講主管機關而已啦,基本上就這樣而已,這個不會有什麼爭執、爭議啦好啦,那至少過一條,第一條就保留,第四條要遇到囉"},{"start":21160.647,"end":21176.533,"text":"法律名稱剛剛已經通過了但是我們第二條的時候如果有意見你們要再抽出來我們再抽出來好不好剛剛是這樣我們第一條是保留那第二條是不是造型證件及理業請委員的版本來通過好不好好 第二條就照這樣通過來 第三條"},{"start":21179.195,"end":21202.447,"text":"第三條的部分是針對本條例裡面所提出來的一些用詞我們予以明確的定義那第一個定義就會針對什麼叫做全民健康保險資料這個簡稱健保資料然後第二個是特定目的所以這裡要提到因為我原來的第一條是明定特定目的外的利用所以我們這一條在解釋說什麼叫做特定目的"},{"start":21203.007,"end":21228.938,"text":"然後第三個定義名詞是指當事人也就是說這個是指個人健保資料的本人針對當事人的定義那另外有一個第四個是假名化的定義就是因為健保資料經過處理或加工後那不能識別其身份而且其他資訊應該分開存放並採取技術上或組織上的保護措施那針對這個名詞定義的這個條文呢"},{"start":21230.999,"end":21252.426,"text":"王振旭委員有提出來定義4的部分我們原來是寫假名化那王振旭委員是希望把它改成資料隱私強化措施那我們這邊的建議行政單位的建議是希望能夠維持假名化因為假名化本身它有加密還有就是有匿名化等等那種"},{"start":21254.287,"end":21265.365,"text":"所以我們是建議用假名化這樣會比較明確那這也參考國外歐盟的定義方式予以訂定以上說明"},{"start":21267.595,"end":21290.721,"text":"他還沒有回應,我也有修正同意,你只有回王委員,你對我有一點不敬公平不好意思,趙委員你既然把我漏掉了,那我們就拭目以待好,請說跟趙委員說抱歉,我們手上還沒看到趙委員的版本好,議事組"},{"start":21296.351,"end":21321.267,"text":"大家都看到,只有我的版本你看不到署長交代了署長姓史史定了他回應完之後就請剛剛有舉手委員就請你們發言有回王委員的修正動議啦在第七頁啦,給我們看一下,拜託一下"},{"start":21326.969,"end":21350.196,"text":"使其以通常方法不能識別其身分跟你們這個會透過其他資訊對照不能識別其身分差異在什麼地方?你們能不能接受?OK啊,請王委員來"},{"start":21353.908,"end":21355.51,"text":"那剛剛有提到修正動議裡面的第四款"},{"start":21373.109,"end":21399.067,"text":"就是有關於假民化的部分我們期待是用資料隱私強化措施來代替假民化給大家的印象那當然假民化它有一定的定義還有一定的操作那個都很可以理解那我們期待是用資料隱私強化措施事實上就是包括假民化或可以實行了一些相關的內容這樣的話可以讓這個立法本身可以更寬廣"},{"start":21400.228,"end":21426.997,"text":"那未來在執行的時候也有一些比較聚焦的做法不過我們當然不會說一定要把這個假名化改成為我們想要期待的這個部分不過因為我們不管是從人體生物資料庫管理條例裡面有關加密去連結的部分其實也都有相關的一些處理方法那為了要讓未來的假名化可以更為"},{"start":21428.578,"end":21437.875,"text":"符合期待的話那我們希望在立法說明裡面同時在有關於立法說明裡面的"},{"start":21439.44,"end":21459.822,"text":"倒數第三行再加假名化後面的再一個加密還有一個頓號去識別化這樣的方式讓將來在執行的時候假名化加密跟去識別化等等的一些具體措施可以透過立法說明來補強這部分以上"},{"start":21462.013,"end":21486.518,"text":"這是王委員提供的意見 首長要先回一下我先來說明一下 像國際上對這個資料隱私的保護的處理方式大概可以有兩種一種叫做假名化 它英文叫做 pseudonymization那另外一種是叫做匿名化 匿名化叫做anonymization"},{"start":21486.938,"end":21503.258,"text":"匿名跟假名是不一樣所謂的假名就是我們給他一個代碼換成另外一個代號或代碼所以他透過這個代號去比對之後他就可以還原他本來的個資所以這個叫做假名化"},{"start":21503.979,"end":21530.859,"text":"但是匿名化的話就會像很多委員用的他把它做過特殊的加密方式處理之後去任何連結一般的方法是不能夠把它恢復的所以我們現在用的這個叫做通常方法那個是匿名化的處理方式那個會很複雜那個就不是我們現在所做的那個就是你根本就是"},{"start":21532.099,"end":21554.595,"text":"沒有辦法回復的概念就是無法回復的啦不知道這個資料是誰的那個才是用叫做通常方法不能辨識那我們一般講的假名化就是比對我們那個是按照這個歐盟的GDPR的定義他的假名化的定義就是用這樣就是你給他一個方式處理之後"},{"start":21555.476,"end":21565.69,"text":"明顯無法辨識身份要經過其他的資訊對照之後才能辨識所以這個概念是這樣來 請王委員 王一鳴委員"},{"start":21567.4,"end":21596.059,"text":"這個也是我想請教的部分因為你寫假名話事實上在直觀上面大家就會覺得那只是一個代碼但是如果他的其他資訊再強加比對的時候有可能這個人的身份還是會被知道就是萬一這一個個資其實是外洩的話就是因為你其他並沒有做太多的你剛剛講的匿名化或去識別化的處理的時候事實上他只是不知"},{"start":21597.34,"end":21619.277,"text":"你可能是名字沒有顯現出來對不對但是他其他的這些特性什麼都是一樣的但是如果有人可能是他親近的朋友或什麼你沒有告訴他名字這一些特徵都這麼明顯他還是知道了他的個資那這個就是因為我們今天是在訂這個資料管理辦法"},{"start":21619.757,"end":21641.802,"text":"也是要著重个人这个资料的保护所以在这样的情况底下如果你的资料库的处理原则是这样那会不会其实对于个资的保护事实上还是相对比较弱的因为假名化很容易会造成一种你刚刚在讲假名化跟匿名化的差别那事实上匿名化它是"},{"start":21642.582,"end":21665.804,"text":"去更多的个资更不容易被辨识出来那一般人其实是希望去识别化而不是去识别化就是我们现在说的就是假名化的处理方式都有吗我觉得你现在可能要讲更清楚一点因为假名化的直观你翻译成中文之后大家觉得你可能去识别化的强度是不强"},{"start":21668.597,"end":21685.629,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們資料的處理是這樣就是說你在這個在跑資料啦在閱覽這個資料的時候是在一個指定時間的指定地點所以你是不可能把資料吸出所以沒有這個恢復的問題去辨識的問題沒有辦法"},{"start":21688.231,"end":21708.336,"text":"那但是第二種情況是說在這個條文裡面有講保險人資料收集的叫保險人但是主管機關我們在衛福部裡面有一個資料科學中心我們需要把這個資料給他給他之後呢他要去串接癌症資料所以如果我們把它做匿名化之後他無法串接"},{"start":21709.52,"end":21725.797,"text":"我們提供匿名化的處理再給了衛福部之後衛福部他就沒有辦法換那個癌症資料了所以我們要用假名化處理然後到了這個衛福部的時候我們再把這個假名處理的這個對照資料檔再給這個"},{"start":21732.003,"end":21747.48,"text":"這個統計處他再去串接其他的資料如果是用匿名化處理的話是沒有辦法串資料的所以差別在這個地方那這個串接的工作就是只有由主管機關去執行他不是把資料直接釋出"},{"start":21748.201,"end":21775.409,"text":"現在都沒有釋出資料然後他對他串接完之後因為我們這個是假名化所以他有辦法再串恢復之後再串串好之後他再做第二次的假名化處理再萃取出那個研究者所需要的資料也是在指定時間指定地點去跑資料資料也只能帶出統計的結果不會把這些個別的資料吸出"},{"start":21775.629,"end":21796.509,"text":"所以現在你們即使你們同意的研究案就是這些研究單位拿到的資料都會是統計結果統計結果的資料絕對不會有說A病患什麼幾歲什麼性別然後什麼什麼不會不會沒有這樣一筆一筆的他都是完全都沒有不會不會完全就只有統計資料統計結果的資料"},{"start":21798.991,"end":21823.318,"text":"對 因為現在大家外界最擔心的是說有些研究他就會要講個別的情況那個別的情況你如果只是你所謂的假名化的話那就很容易他描述得最詳細大家就知道他是誰不會不會不會統計起來就告訴你說所有的病人女性多少幾例占比多少統計統計統計結果"},{"start":21827.511,"end":21833.666,"text":"裡面沒有性別這種有提供的時候有我是說研究者的吸出的資料是統計結果不會有個別"},{"start":21841.285,"end":21863.571,"text":"我這邊大概對於第三就當事人這一個名詞法律上當事人一般指的事實上是告訴人被告那這裡用當事人就很難區別是個人健保資料的本人雖然大家後面有解釋還是申請人另外本人的資料被收在政府當中政府到底是不是當事人嗎所以會混淆"},{"start":21864.191,"end":21888.697,"text":"所以如果跟健保條例的進口關係可不可以用被保險人這第一個第二個是這假名化我不知道就是說我們自己通題比較在習慣用語事實上是去識別化可是你現在有個假名化會不會這個我剛剛淑芬委員有講說這些東西是不是要讓民眾一般能夠可瞭解的時候我趕快來啟動我有些資料要不要讓政府使用那是不是越"},{"start":21890.297,"end":21917.847,"text":"能夠清楚讓人家知道因為我不知道這不是翻譯的名詞說一定要假名化可是我們自己通常慣用的還是去識別化那我不知道這兩者你有我剛剛聽王正旭委員說有強度上的差異那我也想問說那假名化反而是最粗淺的最粗淺的話那是不是那這樣去識別化反而會是更讓那個保護隱私以上 謝謝"},{"start":21922.513,"end":21941.206,"text":"說明那個我們的名詞定義當事人其實我們定義寫很清楚是指個人健保資料的本人所以因為我們這個條例是在規範全民健康保險資料所以我們就明定說那個利害關係人就是屬於個人健保資料的個人是指那個本人"},{"start":21942.086,"end":21956.591,"text":"然後第二個呢我這邊再補充剛剛王玉敏委員還有就依我們所謂的去識別化其實在國外的文獻裡頭去識別化他可以分兩種他會依照資料加工的程度不同分為"},{"start":21957.951,"end":21984.586,"text":"匿名化跟假名化那剛剛石署長已經說明的非常清楚因為我們現在採用假名化的部分是當我們健保資料傳輸傳到我們主管機關衛福部的時候到資格中心他才可以去做串聯串聯以後的完成的資料提供給學術機關但是提供給學術機關的時候呢就會把一些就是那個個人的ID或什麼他就會去掉了"},{"start":21984.986,"end":22006.357,"text":"所以呢這裡如果委員我們可以在立法說明的點因為請各位人看一下我們的立法說明的第四點寫得很清楚就是歐盟參考GTBR呢他對於假名化的定義是經過假名化的個人資料非透過其他資訊的對照不能再識別出特定資料的"},{"start":22007.738,"end":22025.973,"text":"資料主體的資料那還有一句很重要的同時其他的資訊與應該以假名化的資料分開存放所以我們現在規範的健保資料呢我們會做假名化假名化的處理但是如果是屬於非健保的資料可能比如說像國健署的癌燈"},{"start":22026.954,"end":22041.834,"text":"還有那個死亡者的資料等等那些就是指其他資料我們這兩個會分開存放所以呢最後呢只有我們的資科中心他因為要串聯起來提供給學術研究去做學術研究之用那所以這裡我們針對的這個"},{"start":22043.836,"end":22072.786,"text":"定義呢是參考這個部分我們可以再補強再把剛剛我所講的大家認知上的去識別化的定義是指依資料加工的程度高低可分為匿名化跟假名化那麼我們這個條例我們採用的是假名化那個是去做連結是因為方便方便最後可以提供那個完整的資訊可以給學術研究機關去做研究以上說明我就可以再立法立法說明再去強化這個部分"},{"start":22074.164,"end":22082.271,"text":"好 請林淑雯委員好 因為大家辛苦了所以我想講一個笑話給大家聽我們笑完了"},{"start":22083.476,"end":22085.658,"text":"這個笑話就是我早上問部長的當你全身都沒穿衣服的時候然後有人進來看到你裸體的時候你要先遮哪裡第一個叫做遮自己的臉那第二個呢現在有另外一個選項叫做把進來的那個人的眼睛遮起來"},{"start":22104.292,"end":22107.454,"text":"好 我為什麼要講這個笑話呢因為這自己的臉還是有可能會比對出來當你串接的時候或者是什麼時候方便然後這別人的眼其實是匿名化就完全都比對不出來他也看不到了"},{"start":22120.981,"end":22122.962,"text":"其實是我們選擇的問題啦就我們要選擇讓他在利用的時候是要全部都去識別化了全部都看不見了還是要保留到另外一個部門的時候可以串接這個是我們立法者在這裡要做選擇的"},{"start":22140.814,"end":22156.674,"text":"那你說完全都不要了那他沒有辦法串接比如說疾病要研究因果或相關高度相關或因果那他需要串接因為他那個東西就不是放在健保資料庫裡面的所以這個地方就是我們自己的要選擇的"},{"start":22158.797,"end":22174.684,"text":"那我們要給他們到什麼程度第一個第二個就是說就我個人來講法律的可敬性很重要對於使用者而使用法律的人其實是一般人民那為什麼我講這個因為以前我們在修都更條例的時候別說我了現在做律師要討法律"},{"start":22177.945,"end":22180.067,"text":"這渡江條例裡面這名詞是在說什麼我都聽不懂看不懂但要研究一半步我個人的看法也是一樣就是說你的名詞定義越簡單讓人民一看就明瞭這是最重要的"},{"start":22193.32,"end":22201.142,"text":"但是你說假名化他還是要他還是要定義清楚啦那去識別化其實有剛剛講有兩種強度嘛一個是高強度的完全匿名化了一個是你還是可以適當的比對還比對了出來的這個假名化所以理論上我對不起王醫師我不太贊成你個人那麼那麼完整的名詞因為那個名詞太文綜綜了我覺得對使用者來講可能"},{"start":22222.446,"end":22227.249,"text":"不是那麼容易一看就知道這樣子啦這個是我個人的意見好謝謝好來請文委員謝謝謝謝十分委員提供這個笑話讓我們精神為之一振不過其實我是同意就是我們用資料隱私強化措施的確讓大家會"},{"start":22251.764,"end":22273.811,"text":"會 會 這樣覺得沒辦法馬上理解不過我們才會希望說在立法說明裡面除了針對假名化的定義來處理以外那同時也在那個倒數立法說明倒數第三行把加密跟去識別化一起規範進來這樣大家就會比較清楚說我們在保護這個過程裡面除了"},{"start":22274.951,"end":22297.204,"text":"現有的這個各種技術跟組織方式以外如何能夠把假名化我們擔心規範不到的地方能夠用加密啊用去識別化讓他更完整沒有問題我們會在立法說明裡面的第4點我們再去補強我剛剛提到的然後在還包含王委員所提到的加密等等的你還是一樣忽略我"},{"start":22305.538,"end":22315.35,"text":"我是沒有講笑話所以你就忽略我所以你們就是要堅持你們的版本覺得王委員跟我的那個修制鬥役就是不切實際"},{"start":22317.876,"end":22336.409,"text":"不合乎你未來執行的這個意思因為昭偉您上面寫的是使其以通常方法不能識別其身分那這裡的通常方法那我們就想說我們是不是在還是請昭偉可以同意我們用院版的文字然後我在立法說明那個地方"},{"start":22336.909,"end":22361.806,"text":"再去補強我剛剛說明的部分就是去識別化有匿名化跟假名化然後呢 那匿名化跟假名化其實它還有一個細部的比如說它可以用加密等等的處理方式因為這個會比用寫通常方法會來得更好 沒關係啦 因為你把那個說明弄出來我們到時候跟王委員來討論好不好好 那這一條我們就先保留好 那現在進入第四條"},{"start":22363.459,"end":22377.698,"text":"還是請 其實有修正動議是這個王委員的版本還有我提醒王委員有王委員的版本還有陳昭志委員的版本分別在第一頁跟第十五頁第一頁跟第十五頁來請行政機關再先說說明"},{"start":22378.821,"end":22405.09,"text":"第四條的部分我們是一線判的役職我要訂定組織上的監督防護機制所以我定名由主管機關組成任務編組的性質那我們現在是稱之為諮議會那諮議會的任務我們如列了有六項那陳昭之委員的部分的修正動議是還要將個人資料保護委員會給加進來"},{"start":22408.391,"end":22433.644,"text":"那另外就是王政訓委員的部分呢因為我們現在的條文是寫資議會那王委員希望能夠把它改成審議會另外還有多加入那個案件審查那我們早上在那個那個大體質詢的時候呢有提到我們還是建議維持資議會然後案件審查的部分呢我們會在第11條的部分再去說明說審查小組"},{"start":22435.345,"end":22435.545,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":22447.768,"end":22454.69,"text":"那個第四條因為也會回到一點我第一個要強調說這個地方不好意思大家看第15頁就這個成立成立這個執議會當然我也同意等一下就是用審議的概念我覺得議員還是要會同個人資料保護委員會會同他不是說叫他來開會是會同他有點像他認同竟然他是比較高的一個位階的委員會"},{"start":22476.696,"end":22486.984,"text":"那大家都說這個委員會反正要過了那就是基本上也要會同這個委員會來建立下面這個委員會你叫執議委員會叫審議委員會那我是主張還是要改成這個審議委員會那我們今天為什麼要這樣因為在整個執議會在設計上我一直強調他是不獨立的"},{"start":22496.912,"end":22512.961,"text":"他是拜建保署所管轄的所以他不算兼任還有機關代表真的要獨立他根本不能有行政機關代表有行政機關代表要怎麼要去獨立呢所以這個要請這個就是會同他等於有點讓他認證或是讓他來這個同意了解這個做法是ok的所以這裡我"},{"start":22519.585,"end":22530.833,"text":"我是堅持要加入個人各自這個保護委員會是會同他們來成立那至於任務我們因為剛剛我第一點提到的部分我還是把它加進來了就然後它是審議的性質因為審議它要負起責任那質疑的話又回到那個健保署就是自己來做主啦為什麼自己來做主啦質疑反正聽一聽就過去啦就是審議就是我的重點在這幾個地方啦謝謝"},{"start":22546.274,"end":22568.201,"text":"好 再請王振旭委員 完了之後再請林淑媛委員然後再請郭文貴一併答覆 好 謝謝林委員等一下會講第二個笑話 我先講一下關於這個第四條 我呼籲一下剛剛的趙師傅委員就是其實審議本身比較能夠真的監督到整體 而且諮議就是諮詢商議嘛"},{"start":22571.102,"end":22587.905,"text":"最後決定的是誰可能就是衛護部本身如果勝過審議的話他其實是可以提供在衛護部參考的過程裡面其實他有更強的力度來針對於他們想要做目的外使用的時候一個更好的"},{"start":22588.766,"end":22603.318,"text":"更讓民眾或者是各方面都可以信賴的一個審查過程這就是第一點那第二點就是之前的科家職科中心的架構圖裡面衛福部事實上也是用衛生福利資料統計應用管理審議會"},{"start":22606.04,"end":22628.139,"text":"所以這已經有潛力可循啦所以我們相信審議會本身他一定會比執議會更能夠進行這個把關進行讓民眾可以放心的一個會議的過程跟那個流程那去年我們在審雙罰的時候就是"},{"start":22629.7,"end":22651.541,"text":"在爭雙法的時候其實裡面也有一些討論到底要用執議會還是用審議那大家最後也認為審議的確是有它的重要性跟必要性所以在這邊就是我們也很希望能夠針對這個名稱用審議會會比較更符合實際也更符合當初大法官的要求"},{"start":22652.302,"end":22673.199,"text":"那針對於另外有關於第四條的第二款要不要主案審查查核這個早上部長有提到我們一年將近300個案子那當然我們也希望說未來再執行小組針對於到底什麼樣的案子需要透過審議會來主案審查"},{"start":22677.623,"end":22689.716,"text":"這個這個有些是相對比較沒有那麼樣影響到的當然就不一定要有那麼強的這個審查的一個密度或者是他的強度那有一些可能就是真的需要到審議會來審查的話"},{"start":22692.138,"end":22710.831,"text":"我相信查核本身當然他帶著強度是比較高如果維持諮詢的話是可以接受的那另外案件的審查等等我相信如果我們在執行的過程裡面將來會定施行細則或執行的這個小組功能的話這部分我們就可以讓這個審議會發揮它該有的作用以上的補充"},{"start":22715.256,"end":22719.14,"text":"其實我對於陳委員這個版本我覺得你們可能要再思考一個問題就是說因為你這裡突然長出一個叫做抱歉你問你的條文"},{"start":22738.115,"end":22756.926,"text":"主管機關要會同個人資料保護委員會可是你的條文 你的修正動議裡面沒有談到這個個人資料保護委員會誰組成然後這個個人資料保護委員會這個任務是要做什麼"},{"start":22758.047,"end":22776.337,"text":"然後要怎麼運作你通通都沒有然後呢就突然就說我們要跟這些保護委員會的人一起組成審議委員會那你們要審議的內容就是如果照行政院的這個版本就把它全部都改成要審議"},{"start":22777.338,"end":22791.617,"text":"把他們的資議會的委員的任務通通改成審議但我個人架構不一樣我提的修正案的概念不一樣我意思是說要審議的東西是什麼我們的概念是"},{"start":22794.139,"end":22815.936,"text":"當機關或學術團體要來申請健保資料說他要去做研究 那需不需要審議誰曉得你是真研究還是假研究還是要各自而已 誰知道呢所以只有在學術機關或政府機關要來申請做研究的時候我們要不要審議 當然要審議"},{"start":22818.138,"end":22843.204,"text":"所以這裡就是說你的研究的計畫拿出來大家來看看給專業的人員來看看給人權團體來看看那我們一定要來審議這個才有價值我每一個一年300件我每一件一年500件我也一樣每一件我都要審查看看你來申請這個健保資料的研究要資料去研究合不合理適不適當符不符合公義"},{"start":22844.364,"end":22845.445,"text":"所以在這時候再來審議嘛你平常沒事你要去審議政府機關的政策幹嘛審議政府機關它的那個內部的制度要幹嘛我們要審議的是來申請要討資料的人這群人有正經嗎 有公義嗎"},{"start":22861.056,"end":22867.398,"text":"所以我的版本我們的版本才是說好那我同意你這裡資議會那資議會的功能就是要監督這個政府機關的這一些這個第五條第四條第四條的任務監督他"},{"start":22879.261,"end":22898.754,"text":"那我們還要在另外組成一個審議會而這個審議會就是我剛剛講的人家要來申請每一件我都要申請那再由另外一個審議會再來執行所以這個是我跟大家分享說我們的版本的地方重點是人家要來討資料要來申請資料的時候我們這裡來申請就好了不是在這裡申請負是申要來討資料的人的價位是這樣子的架構這個是以上兩點跟大家分享"},{"start":22909.881,"end":22932.53,"text":"好再請陳委員主席我也一方面回應林委員的一個建議那個我這裡跑出這個個人資料保護委員會是因為第二條我本來要放那我也尊重大家的意見說那裡就不放所以我不是突然冒出來的那這個不是啦委員陳委員你第二條也沒有定出你的任務是什麼第二條你有沒有講你的保護會的組織誰組成怎麼組成"},{"start":22934.551,"end":22954.722,"text":"因為那個是行政院下組織下最高的一個就具有獨立性的機構而且他們說這個法已經在司法法制委員會在那邊跑了司法法是怎麼有可能是各支法的主管機關他已經改成國發會了你們說他跑一半的那個委員會組織法是國發會啊那保護法還是那個對啊啊那各支法"},{"start":22962.233,"end":22977.429,"text":"在經濟委員會啊所以那個也都還沒過就是因為沒過我剛剛才很擔心說你上面的沒有過下面我們今天要跑所以上面的東西都還沒確定上面的架構都還沒確定那我們這裡要來塞一個"},{"start":22979.031,"end":22997.188,"text":"這個也是你會了解我的擔憂在哪我們都認同你的擔憂而且我們認為這個事情也很重要但是有時候立法的時候就不是這樣子處理因為這裡就是還是要法律要我們就盡量把請大家就是說能夠思考的點你這部法律裡面你也是沒有講"},{"start":22998.325,"end":23002.889,"text":"第二個就是說剛剛早上那個衛福部長就說因為一年有300件所以你們要等於要挑選這個挑選我就很擔心了你們挑的東西那就是黑箱作業啊"},{"start":23014.454,"end":23023.038,"text":"現在的作業是這樣子啦原來的設計是審查小組我們有24個專家學者在審查那其實現在也都很順暢啦那我再問下去了那這個審查小組你的名單要不要公開你的會議記錄結果是什麼你要讓大家今天我們就是談一個大概一個里程碑嘛國家各自保護個人權這個各自權嘛"},{"start":23048.558,"end":23068.711,"text":"好 那個 王委員你要問就是這幾個點 然後你你質疑我剛剛講過那個質疑我參加多了衛福部質疑我參加多了從來都不是我們做主最後還是衛福部跟以健保所來說食藥所來說都是他們做主的啊我的決議 我當主席決議都可以翻掉的啊就我經歷太多了 所以"},{"start":23069.571,"end":23077.02,"text":"就是這個東西為什麼我一直強調說有一個監督獨立集團那這也是大法官有提到的啦齁那所以你看看我現在一聽就擔心了300件是多啦齁是多啦但是你要怎麼挑我怎麼知道你挑的是公平是對的是應該被挑出來呢"},{"start":23084.488,"end":23099.15,"text":"那些委員是不是公開的你會議紀錄要不要透明現在法庭都要直播了現在還擔心那個問題嗎所以基本上是不是說那個透明可預測性或透明尤其是透明的這個處理名單等等等等早上我質詢也有提到這些點啦"},{"start":23100.812,"end":23123.725,"text":"是不是都要公開啊我們要進來討論大家的權利報告委員我早上也有在講報告啦第一個就是說今天會來申請這個他有一定的條件嘛對象嘛就是醫療機構跟學術嘛那其實他們要送出來之前會拿到其實就IRB這IRB是非常現在是非常嚴格的那也因為案件"},{"start":23124.645,"end":23137.689,"text":"太多了所以連醫院都受不了所以才有檢藥的如果你沒有清單到人體的或怎麼樣就會比有不同的今天王證據委員也有提到我想他也經歷很多IRB那個所以層層關關我們"},{"start":23140.35,"end":23161.04,"text":"可能不用那透明度呢就是說我們可不可以知道是哪些被塞出來哪些沒有被塞出來對啊你如果既然透明大家就沒有話講啦我們當初在討論政經藥法也很多的觀點就是說這些就算先不先去哪個醫院讓民眾知道我要花這麼多錢結果我得到的東西會是什麼"},{"start":23161.34,"end":23165.468,"text":"我們這個計畫來申請的計畫以及計畫的成果這個都在資訊上我們今天又秀出來都可以查得到衛福部"},{"start":23175.359,"end":23177.7,"text":"我想討論到第四條這邊提到是執議會但剛剛很多人都提到了選議會"},{"start":23191.887,"end":23200.069,"text":"所以重新的修法我覺得就是在那個審查的過程希望可以是一方面是預防個人資料的外洩第二方面就是希望這個整個是更嚴謹的我想這個憲判他大概是希望用一個更嚴謹的制度來管理全民健保的資料"},{"start":23212.012,"end":23216.916,"text":"那我建議這個衛福部你們剛剛特別提到說你們審議現在都在做了你們有一個審查小組怎麼做然後有需要什麼樣的資格要見我覺得這個資料必須提供給委員要不然委員有很大的疑慮因為你只是質疑不審議的話大家會覺得那你審議過程現在到底怎麼回事大家其實是會有存在質疑這個也正常"},{"start":23235.09,"end":23256.578,"text":"那所以你们第一个你们应该要提供这样的资料第二个就是资议那个你们的那个条件第九条其实有提到你们的版本有提到说申请者是政府机关行政法人医疗机构学术研究机构大学及受政府机关委托之大学法人机构为限"},{"start":23257.418,"end":23282.204,"text":"那現在我覺得這裡面可能有一個問題就是譬如說有的大學那會不會是因為有些藥廠或廠商什麼他就跟大學合作然後就用大學的名義就來了但他背後的目的其實是對我要講的是這個部分就是說這樣子做了之後他是為了廠商個別的利益"},{"start":23283.985,"end":23304.245,"text":"他并不符合我们所谓的因为在宪判里面讲得非常清楚事实上全民健保资料他只是用在公益目的是公益如果今天有人取巧就是哎呀这个大学很好拜托拜托然后就来这边申请proposal写得非常漂亮然后就过了"},{"start":23305.026,"end":23334.311,"text":"那他最后其实是为了盈利为目的不是公益为目的那这一类的我要问的就是他怎么样去防堵他来滥用这个全民健保资料我想宪判的精神已经再次提醒主管机关了是一定要以公益为目的那我想现在委员提出为什么审议机制必须强化就是避免这种商业性的个人的以公益之名然后进到这边来"},{"start":23335.368,"end":23338.094,"text":"來取得全民健保的資料我覺得這個才是我們應該要去防堵的部分所以主管機關應該要更清楚的說明"},{"start":23345.84,"end":23373.822,"text":"这个机制应该要怎么样来防备要不然你这个资议会坦白讲很多资议会真的是没有什么功能很多法里面过去食安法也有资议会有在开吗我看也是没有在开就是素质高格资议会就是资议会就是参考而已那今天大家在意的是审议的过程你有没有严格的把关然后不要让有人鱼目混珠来滥用全民健保资料库我想这个才是我们这次再一次修法"},{"start":23374.344,"end":23376.413,"text":"應該要去防堵的目的好 請立書委員"},{"start":23379.65,"end":23401.648,"text":"好我想再救教一下那個陳委員的版本因為你這個版本長的的確是很特別的所以我必須要再問清楚因為這裡條文叫做說會同各支保護委員會組成健保審議委員會那我問那個各支中心的那個叫什麼主長你你就這個各支保護委員會的誰"},{"start":23410.205,"end":23424.04,"text":"是可以來組成這個健保審議委員會各支保護委員就行政院架構是五到七人而且都是兼的比如說可能主委副主委是專的其他都是兼的"},{"start":23425.441,"end":23444.851,"text":"那這種狀況裡面讓他們又是獨立機關要來監督各個部會的然後又讓他們到這個部會裡面來就實際的作用的要來管制這部又來involve到這部法律裡面來涉入到這樣獨立機關還叫做獨立嗎這個是不是這樣設計有沒有問題請組長討論一下"},{"start":23449.854,"end":23477.389,"text":"謝謝委員就如同剛剛有說明就是說因為我們各支會成立以後他對於所有的公務機關各支的這個收集處理用他都會去納入監督那這邊就如同剛剛林主任委員提到就是說因為我們第4條這邊他要主管機關會同各支會組成這個審議委員會他在第5條又說要由這個主管機關跟各支會去就這些相關領域的這個學者專家人權團體代表去做"},{"start":23478.59,"end":23496.402,"text":"聘派間對所以看起來好像是要讓主管局跟各自會一起去聘這些外部的這些學者專家人權團體的代表當這個審議會或是執議會的委員那因為我如同剛剛我們說的因為我們各自會它是一個獨立的機關獨立監督機關"},{"start":23498.343,"end":23513.103,"text":"那如果说变成是变成把我们各自会连同卫福部就拉进去一起去就这个健保资料库去做一些实质上的管理他其实会形同他是球员兼裁判他会变成是说他自己下去管"},{"start":23513.584,"end":23527.037,"text":"然後他又要去做監督他其實會被外界質疑他其實是沒有獨立性這個監督是無效的所以就是會希望說因為我們個資法裡面他就會去就那個主管機關個資會"},{"start":23528.918,"end":23554.191,"text":"最公務機關的這個事前的這個監督集合事後的一些行政檢查包含各自有外洩所有的一些通報的機制等等都有做相關的規範所以各自法裡面其實就已經會就所有公務機關的這些事項做規範可能建議說不要在我們這個條例裡面又把各自會拉進去變成是一個球員那他會變成是會被外界質疑他的獨立性以上"},{"start":23554.951,"end":23577.316,"text":"就是說是不是就是說因為一個獨立機關你現在又要involve到這個不管是執議會或審議會裡面來一起制定遊戲規則制定制度你就是變成一個制度和遊戲規則的制定者可是你又說你是管理各部會的超然獨立機關這樣的角色是會混淆的啦"},{"start":23580.993,"end":23595.212,"text":"好 這個喔 請說剛剛我也一致強調說本來我是主張是各自保護委員會就是這個組織當成立之後我們再來討論今天的法案但今天沒有辦法大家就覺得要效率要提高所以這個各自保護委員會其實是"},{"start":23596.293,"end":23617.089,"text":"不是說請他來開會我們這裡這個就是說是會同他我覺得有一點因為他是這個目前最高嘛這個最高的一個獨立的這個監督機構就是說那這個情況下好像我們人民很多都要跟內政部報名內政部也是隨時可以負監督之責任所以這裡我是覺得如果不把這個放進來那真的是健保署自己在玩"},{"start":23618.01,"end":23641.915,"text":"建保署就自己在玩這些資義委員會啦我完全沒有用什麼方式我也可以尊重大家用什麼方式把這個帶進來我的基本的這個精神是在這個地方啦因為我見識過太多建保署的包括食藥衛福部所有的資義委員會啦那公共的我們都不尊崇啦都不尊崇啦也沒人監督嘛那也可以少數為很dominant嘛這個都是事實啊這個都是事實啊"},{"start":23645.152,"end":23662.808,"text":"好來再請林委員我再跟大家舉一個例子就像NCC好了NCC進來到各地方政府然後一起制定說我費率要定多少或是到對於這個什麼東西要怎麼樣怎麼樣都介入了那你還能做一個獨立機關嗎那"},{"start":23665.734,"end":23676.627,"text":"那這種狀況的話其實是真的不是很適當但我們可以理解陳委員的擔心但我覺得重點還不是在這裡重點應該是我剛才講的另外一個架構每一個學術機關或大學然後王玉明委員講的"},{"start":23683.115,"end":23702.65,"text":"他就是假公益致命啊明明就是有錢叫他來 要來行情研究啊 要來拿資料啊我也可以說那個 我舉一個例子好了我就是只說整個疫苗 要去PV疫苗啦全世界普遍所有的女人都有打的資料最齊全的就到台灣來健保資料庫撈檔案就好了"},{"start":23705.979,"end":23711.086,"text":"那你去做 打到底HPV疫苗效果有多好未來連男生 全體男性都有打 幾乎都有打的資料最齊全就台灣的健保資料庫有錢不用花錢去做後市場"},{"start":23721.458,"end":23735.987,"text":"還是第四期的臨床都不用啦來撈我們的健保資料庫就好了請問一下這個東西他是不是他不會直接說我是要來做臨床第四期他會包裝一個學術研究啊那在這種狀況裡面要不要具體審議他的計畫"},{"start":23738.008,"end":23744.689,"text":"那請問這個審議這個計畫我認為不是這個諮議會如大家所說諮議會的諮詢的功能比較大啦那我們的確需要一個審議會但那個審議會不是放在這個諮議會這個諮議會是另外一個組織所以我才個人才我們才主張再架構一個審議會來審查每一個學術研究以學術研究之名來的計畫"},{"start":23762.893,"end":23777.409,"text":"到底符不符合公義到底有沒有是變相的藥廠來的然後變成不小心獲利了然後再繳基金政府會不會放水這個就請大家再看一下我們的修正動議就後面再有一個審議會然後這個審議會的組成大家再來討論嘛是不是這樣子這裡才是重點啦"},{"start":23785.114,"end":23804.39,"text":"好 翁委員再補充補充我們就做一個處理好 請說是是 我想第四條經過這麼隆長的討論如果針對於執議會能夠改成審議會那剛剛您所謂委員也好這個參謀委員也好所提到的一些內容看起來"},{"start":23805.812,"end":23817.509,"text":"目前的條文的內容事實上是沒有太大的一些處理上的問題所以我的建議是說是不是可以就把執議會改成審議會那其他內容就為此願辦"},{"start":23822.812,"end":23847.59,"text":"應該這麼說我想這樣我解釋一下各位再思考靜一下我們情緒要穩定一下第一個第四條跟第五條是連動的第二個第四條跟第五條基本上都是在講質疑林署委員又有另外的修正動議是在講審議兩位委員提出來的陳委員跟王委員也是希望把院版的質疑改為審議"},{"start":23849.633,"end":23855.186,"text":"然後我一直很擔心就是說這個資益給你們就好像金毛鼠自己在玩所以他才會同這個個這個"},{"start":23858.346,"end":23878.871,"text":"個人資料保護委員會但是這樣會進來就不會他擔心會發生我相信還是會發生所以真的好不好因為我們可能要調整一些要去做一些調整跟溝通休息個三分鐘你們好好再說明一下不然你等一下第四條第五條都一樣的有連動"},{"start":23880.546,"end":23896.772,"text":"你是不是不能收到給他們再說明一下怎麼看大家都希望是神意啦但是你們這裡是沒有嘛你們這第四條第五條是你說的知意嘛林鄉委員這個表有說這東西是神意喔現在陳委員跟歐委員都是希望知改為神喔好 謝謝"},{"start":23903.68,"end":23916.069,"text":"這個要叫審議會或執議會要當看他的任務他底下的任務來看看名稱用什麼比較合適那以現在的任務來看的話並沒有審查的功能啦"},{"start":23916.849,"end":23938.252,"text":"那如果有的話就是說如果你要把它硬加進去說要審查個案申請的個案那才就是審查那但是待會呢是希望在11條申請這些陸地外利用的時候的那個後面再加上一個審議的這個組織審查的流程會比較好那至於說"},{"start":23940.073,"end":23955.121,"text":"陳委員一直擔心我們健保署字義亂為啦不會因為這個字義會是設在主管機關不是保險人他是設在主管機關也就是設在衛福部並不是設在健保署"},{"start":23956.301,"end":23983.441,"text":"我們把它弄清楚了到了第11條這個申請資料的時候有兩個對象一個是直接向保險人申請一個是向衛福部也就是主管機關申請就是現在的資料科學中心所以在各自有審查的機制在第11條的時候我們再來討論那個修正所以我是建議說是不是能按照原本的第4條的行政院版本來通過"},{"start":23985.646,"end":23995.208,"text":"我知道 好 還是休息個三分鐘啦因為陳委員跟王委員對不對還有林委員的後面的審議的部分是不是大家溝通一下五分鐘啦 五分鐘 好 我們先溝通一下"},{"start":24453.567,"end":24480.843,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 請各位回座應該 休個分鐘大家應該比較有共識齁還是有一些效果有勾應該有通啦齁通了部長通完了齁 謝謝那第四條我們是不是可以依照行政院的版本"},{"start":24482.188,"end":24500.017,"text":"我的個資委員會沒有進去妳的個資委員會再進去就沒有跟第一條啊第一條是會同他建立這個東西啊因為等於是要最高的主管機關一直在知道他們整個成立的過程不是 蔣委你到底是或是在審議嗎"},{"start":24502.281,"end":24511.825,"text":"你應該是focus在審議我的修正綜藝裡面就一直有這個我畫underline的我畫那個底線的全部都有主管機關會從個人資料保衛組成這個審議但審議之一他們現在用兩接來做也可以兩接這個ok的但是這個內容就會涉及剛剛我一開始你們說儲存處理那個不要又不要然後那個個人資料保衛也不進來"},{"start":24525.211,"end":24549.896,"text":"那這樣這條我就變成只好保留啊因為我兩個重點都沒有辦法收啊但是那個兩階的做法我們至少那個地方大概不會再吵了我是不是要再說明一下你的你最主要跟剛剛跟王委員的意思就是希望資益改為審議嘛那等一下11條的時候我們會處理到這個審議的部分就會你的版本就應該就可以納入一併大家一起再討論嘛那現在院本的第四條是要講資益嘛是這樣"},{"start":24554.582,"end":24574.814,"text":"各支保委員會的監督下來成立這樣子的一個我還是尊重大法官的判決啊各支委員會的監督下是你是要強調質疑還是強調審議他就是類似他報備准許下成立這個委員會的組成成立審議還是質疑審議跟質疑剛剛我們的討論是說兩階啦對兩階你的各支委員會就是要要處理審議跟質疑都要處理"},{"start":24584.309,"end":24589.954,"text":"不是吧,你是要處理審議嘛審議?高階的那個現在第一次聊天要討論是資議嘛但是我那個個人資格保護委員會他就是跟審議的學生來處理任務一也沒有進去任務一就在審議的時候處理"},{"start":24603.001,"end":24619.277,"text":"不是在質疑啊現在我的版本就不一樣了沒有啦 你的版本可以到時候現在你還是要回去調整看你我調整一個版本出來不然就是你還是要做選擇說你要放棄你這個價格還是什麼至少我們討論是有一定的某個程度的共識但是這個沒有辦法確認"},{"start":24621.879,"end":24635.329,"text":"現在我再補充一下就是說我大體上看行政院這個架構就是說這個執議會基本上就是在行政行政和政策方向上還有在個案爭議審議的時候要來處理他們他們才出現這個任務就是當政策方向然後還有這個個案爭議或審議的爭議的時候來協助主管機關做一些評估或監督這樣子"},{"start":24649.76,"end":24674.333,"text":"這個是執議會的功能那我們剛剛講說審議的話進行實質審議的話就放到後面再架設一個每個個案來申請的審議委員會這樣子所以基本上這個執議會理論上其實就真的是執議的成分比較大啦那是不同層次的啦它基本上是協助行政機關就政策方向還有這個個案爭議或審議的時候的爭議"},{"start":24678.635,"end":24693.984,"text":"來做這個最後的仲裁這個角色對這個是任務啊就是第四條執議會的任務啊但是就是事實上這個執議會的作用其實就是這樣子而已那真正實質我們講重點是實質把關是在審議會對在駕駛部審議會對剛剛大家有共識就是審議挪到11條嘛那第四條這邊原本他在第四款有提到說"},{"start":24708.366,"end":24734.544,"text":"或停止提供特定目的外利用爭議之處理那剛剛也有提到就是說如果審議會那邊有一些爭議的案件他是不是要提到執議會來如果要你原來的文字是不是可以涵蓋還是應該要再略做修正所以我建議我建議第四條有些文字就保留因為十一條隨著要更動嘛所以就是一起保留然後文字再修得更適當好不好 謝謝"},{"start":24737.062,"end":24759.344,"text":"好 請 王政訓委員好 是 因為當初我們會一直希望把知意會改成審議會大家都已經很清楚嘛那 既然我們後面未來在第11條那邊會針對相關的審查必要的這些案件還有它的重點所以 基本上第4條就可以維持原來"},{"start":24761.066,"end":24771.276,"text":"院版的資議會那至於內容是不是還在微調我們就再請大家做最後的確認好 謝謝那我們第四條就先保留啦好"},{"start":24773.021,"end":24796.199,"text":"那接續我們來審查這個第五條請行政機關先做說明那第四第五應該是您慣性的啦主要是那個審議委員的組成嘛對不對是然後第五條是針對自醫會委員的組成那院版的條文呢寫的是由主管機關就醫事公共衛生法律與自通安全之專家學者"},{"start":24797.02,"end":24819.726,"text":"人權團體代表社會工作人士及政府機關構代表聘兼職那這個部分呢林淑芬委員還有那個昭偉還有昭偉有提出來以及那個王正旭委員他們都有提到說希望在多家"},{"start":24820.826,"end":24836.058,"text":"並有團體希望多加並有團體那林淑芬委員的版本寫得還更清楚就是並有團體代表他希望各自少兩人也就是他指的團體 抱歉 並不是這樣子應該是說"},{"start":24839.1,"end":24851.744,"text":"醫事人員、公共衛生、法律的和資通的還有人權團體至少要兩名社會公正人士也要兩名病友團體要兩名這樣子你懂嗎醫事至少要兩名2、4、6、8、10、12、14至少這樣子"},{"start":24858.886,"end":24876.494,"text":"就是說各類的團體通通都要至少兩名所以如果加入並有團體的話基本上我們行政單位是可以接受的啦如果大家並有團體我們是希望代表病患的病患代表啦其實就是希望有病患代表"},{"start":24877.034,"end":24894.675,"text":"那另外因為召委提出來也是多家的那個並有團體的代表那另外如縣議委員他有希望將原住民族的代表也放進來那基本上行政單位這邊補充說明因為我們這個是在做資義性質我們會比較針對"},{"start":24896.136,"end":24918.792,"text":"不會特別去針對各個族群的代表而是針對對於健保資料庫特定目的外利用的一些情形去做給那個政府機關來做決議作為我們的決定的參考啦所以這裡行政單位比較比較傾向說不特別再去名列原住民代表以上說明"},{"start":24921.142,"end":24947.394,"text":"來先請王玉敏文再請陳昭志委員這邊我想請教一下那個速發部的角色因為你有一個是政府機關代表嘛你的政府機關代表主要是誰因為事實上這一個資料庫一個除了是各自的保護之外那個整個自通的安全也是很重要的一塊所以我在第六條才會說你們如果去有關於資料庫的管理運用的話你應該"},{"start":24948.574,"end":24972.343,"text":"可以會同書發部主要就是衛福部其實你們以自己的能量你們現在明定是主管機關但以你們自己的量我覺得有限那就資訊安全的部分或硬體管理的部分我覺得在主管機關政府機關裡面書發部應該算是一個我們已經新成立而且很重要的單位所以第一個提醒是第五條裡面有沒有書發部的角色那我第六條呢也特別提到書發部"},{"start":24973.323,"end":24989.836,"text":"在這裡面可以共同跟你們一起來做這樣的一個治安的一個管理跟委員說明因為我們第三項有寫知議會委員的名額還有主席產生方式還有委員召集等等"},{"start":24990.556,"end":25009.348,"text":"這個部分的委員名單因為既然我們有包括資通安全的專家學者還有包括公共衛生法律所以那個部分在我們資育會委員裡面當然我們會把那個數位部或者是各自籌備處就是跟我們這邊有相關的部分我們會把他納進來主持人網委員的意見放在"},{"start":25021.049,"end":25037.722,"text":"或是王玉敏委員的意見為了確保你們未來在執行面真的不會這麼公公的回去就這樣做所以在立法說明欄裡面把書發布的或相關政府機關應該喊什麼給他立法說明欄放進去這樣就不會被你騙了"},{"start":25040.793,"end":25061.294,"text":"來陳昭秀委員就是為什麼我在第四條會議一開始就是說為什麼我要盡量在要符合大法官的這個憲法判決意旨就是為什麼一定我還是會同那個個人資料保護委員會那是最高的一個獨立的監督的這個機構所以這邊我為什麼也再寫一次就是說由這個個人資料保護委員會跟衛福部一起決定怎麼設置"},{"start":25062.715,"end":25083.426,"text":"委員人數運作方式等等我的目的是是這樣當然大家討論的東西都是某個程度都可以接受但是我還是希望說我念茲在茲的那個就是這個獨立的機構可以要進來那另外我對於召委跟林淑芬委員提出的加入病友團體代表這個是完全支持好就先這樣發言好還有其他委員有意見嗎那沒有"},{"start":25089.366,"end":25101.205,"text":"沒有所以最後行政會不是要依照因為還是沒有第四條的那個我原來的那個啊那個那個等"},{"start":25102.979,"end":25116.176,"text":"我們其他的因為我們今天不會只有今天就把它處理完嘛就是那些重點我們最後還是要再來回顧一次嘛但是討論過後的大家同意的部分就就不會再去有不同的意見行政機關這邊說明針對第五條的部分我們建議"},{"start":25120.12,"end":25140.586,"text":"趙玲淑芬的修正電影我再念一次自衣會智委員若干人逗點由主管機關就醫事頓豪公共衛生頓豪法律與資通安全專家學者頓豪人權團體代表頓豪社會公正人士頓豪並有團體代表各至少兩人逗點以及政府機關構代表聘派兼職"},{"start":25141.866,"end":25168.144,"text":"分號其中專家學者人數逗點不得少於委員總數二分之一分號任意性別委員逗點不得少於委員總數三分之一第二項委員任期兩年期滿得續聘第三項知育會委員之名額主席產生方式頓好會議之召集頓好出席頓好決議與議事運作及其他相關事項"},{"start":25169.906,"end":25187.366,"text":"這個應該是相對相關事項是辦法由主管機關定之至於剛剛呃陳昭之委員所提到的我們會在知議會裡面的組成剛剛有承諾說我在說明欄我們會呃政府機關構的代表我們會把樹花部各自籌備處給加進來以上說明"},{"start":25189.568,"end":25218.161,"text":"我的重點還是今天我們就是為了那個憲法判決我們才會來好好處理這個法條但我一直講的都同一件事啊就是說這裡還是少一個個人資料保護委員會啊我們希望會同就你知道你要報備他他在會他在了解或監督這個這樣子一個成立是符合的是符合是個人資料保護委員會的他們的基本的精神原則我大概一為什麼要保留四為什麼保留我那個點就在這個地方啊"},{"start":25218.621,"end":25239.955,"text":"跟委員說明齁 因為剛剛各自籌備處的代表說得很清楚各自籌備委員會它是站在一個對所有資料的監督管理機制我們現在訂的這個條例只是針對健保資料那健保資料裡面因為我們設立了一個監督的機制就是自益會那我們自益會的成員也把這個加進來我們在處理再生醫療法的時候我要求第一條就要發論醫學論除了病人權益之外"},{"start":25241.696,"end":25270.943,"text":"那也有醫生說醫生本來就有醫學倫理所以我們不用再填最後還是放進去了因為對每一個法他也有一個基本的精神在那個地方那我今天就是我們根據就是大法官的這個判決憲法判決一直來啊但我發現強調要有一個獨立監督的機制啊因為這是個人的權利我剛剛講這個那個病人的資料也不是國家的不是國家不是衛福部不是健保署也不是任何人可以任意使用所以基本上我就一直的我講的話就一直在同一個這個地方"},{"start":25271.403,"end":25285.591,"text":"主席就說就這一點啦這一點其他的東西我覺得怎麼運作我都接受但這一點我希望還是保留到最後把那個放進來因為如果委員在跑說不定如果可以跑得快就可以放進來啦個人在保護委員會的那些組織啊"},{"start":25286.656,"end":25307.619,"text":"因為他是最高的一個獨立機構啊我試著這樣溝通啦陳委員你的幕僚應該也提供一些比較好的意見個人資料委員會如果照你這樣的處理方式所有機要牽涉到各支法的法案的調整"},{"start":25308.735,"end":25318.38,"text":"各支委會全部都要放入不是只有衛福部其他的部會都必須要放入那簡單的一個邏輯這些需要有"},{"start":25319.645,"end":25338.037,"text":"有行政院處理的事情行政院都必須要放入這樣才會客觀公正獨立主席容許我回應一下主席抱歉我反對你的意見因為各支會就是要監督各部會各機關的每個法律都叫他都要會同每個地方都要各支會來參加現在是要獨立機關變成"},{"start":25342.64,"end":25367.026,"text":"涉入到每個部會去制定規則了真的 球員兼裁判所以我們本來就反對各自會還跳下來制定規則 制定法律的都亂起來 怎麼叫獨立機關啊主席我今天不說不離譜所以你說的說全部都要改全部在這裡拿這樣已經很離譜了全部都改成招經期我告訴你 我告訴你 我告訴你我告訴你 我告訴你我告訴你 我告訴你我告訴你 我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你我告訴你"},{"start":25370.387,"end":25376.09,"text":"個人資料保護委員會全部放在每一個法條裡面嘛不可能這樣處理 電話不啦 我們的法是非常關鍵的一個里程碑啦他是要獨立監督"},{"start":25386.704,"end":25404.944,"text":"然後老實說啦這個資料來得蠻晚的啦如果叫我們寫這個整個會不會重寫啦我今天是就衛福部的行政院的版本就是想辦法去符合這個憲法的判決去微調啦所以就是很努力的這個去年那個版本很有問題啦一直在處理最後正式的版本既然"},{"start":25409.631,"end":25420.891,"text":"主席我因為第一條第四條保留而且就是在同一個point上就是這樣你們也通過保留我也沒有意見但是我只是提醒這樣處理方式"},{"start":25424.214,"end":25450.289,"text":"這樣修訂法條不是一個正確的方式啦其實健保的個資是全台灣所有個資最完整的他不是只有健康史病史還有投保單位投保金額所有的所以才會被賣到中國去賣了13年獲利幾十億才出事啊就是這樣啊健保法就這樣健保裡面就是這樣出事啊所以今天然後就經過那個大法官為什麼特別來示現"},{"start":25451.38,"end":25479.683,"text":"好 蔡委我是是善意的提醒沒關係好不好謝謝主席啦我是說我想盡量表達我們這個重點啦沒有啦 不關安坐我重視做主席嘛是有這個義務 把他們拿走嘛 也黑困兩敗就跟你們說 如果你們要繼續這樣就特地保留 我也沒差怎麼會差 對不對這就不是討論慷慨啊來 保留啦 保留來"},{"start":25482.133,"end":25506.804,"text":"繼續審查第六條請行政機關說明完之後如果有意見我們就進行保留行政機關說明第六條是民定主管機關及保險人應該備制電腦相關設備設施等然後建設健保資料庫同時要指定專責單位及專人管理那麼所以呢我的第六條的部分呢"},{"start":25508.205,"end":25526.801,"text":"總共有四項第一項就是要指定專責單位來管理然後第二項有針對剛剛所提到的因為健保的資料是在健保署所以主管機關在建制前項資料所需要的健保資料是由保險人將該等資料假名化後"},{"start":25528.362,"end":25551.612,"text":"傳輸給主管機關那至於前項所提到的健保資料講明化的程序作業方式及其他相關事項的辦法會由主管機關定之最後一項會提到主管機關應該定期或不定期考核定向資料庫的管理及運用發現有應改善事項時應改善或通知保險人立即或限期改善那針對這一條呢"},{"start":25552.913,"end":25580.061,"text":"有陳昭芝委員還有王正旭委員及林淑芬委員還有王育民委員分別有提一些修正的部分那林淑芬委員的部分呢他是有特別強調說在陣列了兩項就是我們主管機關要指派副首長接任健保資料保護長這個部分待會可以討論那至於王育民委員有提到說我們第四項原來寫的是主管機關要"},{"start":25581.061,"end":25597.746,"text":"要定期不定期考核嗎那王玉明委員希望能夠再多加會同數位發展主管機關那剛剛我們有提到說我的資義會成員裡面會有加所以這個部分再提供給王玉明委員做參考那至於王振旭委員的部分因為"},{"start":25598.126,"end":25614.755,"text":"他改的字呢是針對我第三條假名化的那個定義他把它改成那個隱私強化所以這個部分我若維持假名化的那個部分這裡其實是可以不用調的那陳昭志委員還是一樣要會同個人資料保護委員會以上說明"},{"start":25617.723,"end":25630.029,"text":"這樣還要同路嗎一樣要會同我簡單說明一下我們的概念就是說我們其實也不一定要指派是副所長但是因為一開始就講要專人專責所以當然一定要設定一個所以我們才發明一個叫做這個各自保護長因為你還是要專人那專責那看要指定誰所以我覺得這個是比較具體不會淪於形式這樣子要設一個保護長"},{"start":25645.797,"end":25657.523,"text":"然後他要去考核管理什麼東西 考核什麼東西就是才有我們新增加的修正動議好 謝謝 本期也是建議保留接下來請王育民委員 來"},{"start":25659.204,"end":25686.509,"text":"我這邊有提修正動議主要是因為這個是要針對資料庫的管理跟運用去考核那我剛剛前面已經講過就是說在政府機關裡面衛福部算是主管機關但是你們應該要善用數位發展主管機關他們的專業在這部分其實是還蠻強的因為我們既然新設了這樣一個單位那你是在做考核從一個另外不同的觀點來提供你們參考"},{"start":25688.014,"end":25712.64,"text":"這應該是更強化的一個作為 這個是我提修正動議的意見好 謝謝王議員 接下來請王振旭委員我來再換陳昭志委員 再來再換李彥行委員好 請說這是剛剛第三條 已經針對假明化那邊處理到一個段落所以基本上在這一條 我們就尊重院版的內容 以上"},{"start":25714.588,"end":25735.533,"text":"接下來請陳昭志委員我還是強調健保資料是不是全國最完整最私密的個人的資料所以他在人權這個確保上是要最比較嚴謹的設計那既然是考核考核定期的考核那當然要會同這個獨立的這個最高的那個個人資料保護委員會來進行是考核尤其是考核的部分 謝謝好 各位沒有意見就保留啦好 請說來"},{"start":25741.479,"end":25770.187,"text":"速發部報告 報告召委王玉銘委員跟各位委員就是有關於這個王委員這邊的版本所提到的這個第四項希望能夠主管機關會同數位發展主管機關那速發部這邊報告是說因為目前這個資通安全管理法在這個新法就是這個交通委員會那邊已經審查完畢了這個新法裡面已經有明文規定說這個速發部就是數位發展主管機關"},{"start":25771.127,"end":25783.527,"text":"可以來集合公務機關跟非公務機關 也就是說在集合這方面 抒發部會獨立來做這個工作是不是會比會同的情況更能夠客觀 更能夠嚴謹的來處理"},{"start":25786.187,"end":25802.975,"text":"是已經有入法了在交委會已經審查完畢了但還沒通過嗎還沒還沒通過因為我原本我不知道你那邊已經有一個但是我的用意就是你們的專業的確是應該要去幫其他的部會那這邊如果明定就是會有衝突嗎"},{"start":25804.336,"end":25820.649,"text":"不會有衝突 因為你的意思是說你們一定要做我們是如果一支支通安全公司把架構我們一定要做集合那集合那一部分我們是利於集合他的角度去處理那這邊如果會同變成我們是球員我們是跟他 角色上可能也會有毀搖"},{"start":25821.528,"end":25832.46,"text":"那但是你們這一部分也一定會做嘛對不對是是是這部分是依法那先保留一下這樣我懂好就保留來繼續處理第7條請先進化說明怎樣"},{"start":25836.872,"end":25859.237,"text":"不好意思我可以補充說明一下因為剛陳委員的那個修正動議第6條的部分各自會籌備處這邊也補充說明一下因為我們在目前配合各自會組織法的這個各自法部分條文修正草案其實在21條之一我們有針對所謂上下級公務機關上下級機關之間會有就上級機關要去結合這個下級機關"},{"start":25860.217,"end":25878.178,"text":"然後第21條之二有我們各支會就是以獨立機關的這個角色會去對這個所有公務機關做定期跟不定期的集合那因為這個部分21條之二就是由我們獨立機關來做一個主導去主導這個整個集合的制度然後並且可以請求這個公務機關來做協助"},{"start":25881.121,"end":25901.887,"text":"目前這個陳偉仁這邊第六條的這個修正動議他會變成是說主管機關應會同各自會那變成是我們好像變成各自會不是一個主導的角色而是必須要跟這個主管機關衛福部會同那變成其實反而會受到這個衛福部這邊的這個等於是變得好像會受控於這個衛福部這邊"},{"start":25903.647,"end":25925.702,"text":"那因為這邊可能會有點混淆這個主管機關就是上下級機關間的集合跟我們各支會獨立機關以這個外部獨立機關的角色去做集合這邊可能會有點混淆所以會建議說還是維持這個願板謝謝好已經保留了啦好不好剛剛你說明的我已經幫你說明了只不過你講的比較多比較清楚而已繼續審查第7條請行政機關說明"},{"start":25929.414,"end":25952.152,"text":"第七條的部分是直接明訂資料特定目的外的利用跟管理的事項的選擇機關是主管機關及保險人所以我們第一項就明訂說健保資料的特定目的外利用及管理是由主管機關及保險人為之另外並得委託專業機構或法人辦理"},{"start":25955.114,"end":25983.354,"text":"那第二項寫到的是前項受託機構的資格條件委託事項行政契約是訂定終止及其他相關事項這辦法由主管機關定之這裡行政機關補充說明一下因為目前呢特定目的外利用的管理事實上現在是兩個機關一個是衛福部資格中心一個是健保署所以未來會不會再委託給專業法人這個目前是沒有發生的我們只是這一條有預留到預留在這裡"},{"start":25990.74,"end":26009.955,"text":"這條裡面陳昭芝委員還有王玉明委員及盧憲一委員分別有增加了第三項陳昭芝委員的部分一樣就是主管機關的保險人"},{"start":26011.797,"end":26020.63,"text":"應該會同個人資料保護委員會對第一項的受託機關去做進行考核王玉明委員的部分呢寫的是應該會同數位發展機關來對第一項受託機構的去做考核"},{"start":26026.658,"end":26042.823,"text":"那至於盧縣醫委員所訂的是指說他又再次強調前兩項的這些健保資料特定目的外的利用管理如果涉及研究援助民族為目的者除了應取得各該援助民族同意以外應該"},{"start":26043.723,"end":26072.05,"text":"由中央原住民主管機關惠隆本條例主管機關定之那這裡我要補充一下我們現在的健保資料裡頭其實是沒辦法看得出來那一份那一筆資料是不是原住民所以那個呢在健保資料庫目前是沒有這個這個這個欄位的所以呢當要去判斷是不是原住民的時候要再去換接不同的資料所以呢盧縣議委員這個部分的提供請我們就是"},{"start":26073.61,"end":26094.222,"text":"當然以行政機關的認為是我還是希望能夠維持院版 以上說明好 那請盧縣議員先說了好不好他都沒有講過話謝謝我不支持圈集那個對不起 盧縣議員沒關係 抱歉抱歉其實還是針對第五條就是說有"},{"start":26097.323,"end":26100.445,"text":"我希望就是針對這個部分原住民委員會能夠受邀列席我們下一次的討論 謝謝"},{"start":26123.717,"end":26126.238,"text":"因為剛才說明說這個受委託的機構大概就是資科中心案件保署機關構"},{"start":26149.969,"end":26167.599,"text":"目前是這兩個單位在執行但是未來會不會因為有我們是希望能夠盡量限縮盡量限縮 我再想說立法說明欄要不要限縮這兩個 第一個第二個那如果這兩個單位有任何違法"},{"start":26169.506,"end":26183.201,"text":"違反這個個資保護的我認為這兩個單位對於個資保護的管理責任和義務應該要有非常高的強度的要求所以我的意思是說當這兩個單位握有這麼大的資料"},{"start":26186.605,"end":26208.28,"text":"酷的時候沒有如果違反規定然後沒有保護好個資的話我們要克以他什麼責任要不要有罰則我覺得這個地方是之前沒有思考過今天在這裡我覺得應該是不是應該補充一個要不要限縮就是就是在立法說明欄講這裡紫色的就是這兩個機關夠"},{"start":26210.902,"end":26233.651,"text":"然後在法律條文裡面要最後一項要明定他們要比別人刻意他們更高的這個各自保護的責任和義務那如果違反的話要有罰則要有罰則我覺得這樣子才有足夠的強度而且這個罰則的強度要高一點如果沒有的話這裏面你說各自中心是什麼樣的組成這裏面都說不定"},{"start":26240.563,"end":26244.225,"text":"全部都公務員嗎還是約聘戶還是派遣勞務採購勞務採購承攬派遣既然我老師說"},{"start":26252.079,"end":26277.47,"text":"因為他們流動性太高所以各自外洩的風險太高所以在這裡如果你機關用人你的主管對用人沒有好好的把關然後風險讓人民的個人隱私的這種個人最核心的隱私資料外洩那對不起國人而且當一外洩以後沒有任何一個人可以負責"},{"start":26279.47,"end":26299.856,"text":"這個個資中心的人,不管誰,通通都沒有辦法負責所以一定要採取最嚴格的管理和懲罰的機制大家才會覺得有責任,我們老實說所以要刻意他有管理的責任和義務高強度的一定要搭配處分的條款我剛剛才想到,不好意思王毅民委員,現在換陳修之委員"},{"start":26306.683,"end":26327.125,"text":"第七條這邊就是提到得委託專業機構或法人辦理那剛剛你們的說明裡面是說你們現在其實並沒有委託你們是為未來做準備所以先立法但是剛剛林淑芬委員講的就是說健保資料是非常"},{"start":26327.881,"end":26346.792,"text":"你知道是全民这么珍贵的一个资料库你的委托是什么样的单位而且这样的单位如果他的人员他的操守各方面其实你并没有办法因为你就要再转一层了你没有办法直接去要求跟规范那个产生出来的责任"},{"start":26347.867,"end":26372.885,"text":"怎麼去負擔因為按照憲判的意旨他其實是希望強化監督管理但你這邊再多增加一個可委託而且你跟你現況其實不符你只是為未來做準備那未來真的有需要去委託嗎因為我就支持提到這個是所有民眾的你委託的機構如果不足以承擔起這個全民的信任將來出了包對啊"},{"start":26376.875,"end":26384.781,"text":"對啊你再委託我真的覺得這個風險還蠻大的所以你的第七條這樣子放這麼寬我坦白講蠻擔心的請陳委員主席剛剛他們在說明的時候完全漏掉這件事情這不是未來他並得委託專業機構或法人那你現在CDE呢他全套用這個資料啊他是個獨立的財團法人的那個基金會啊"},{"start":26408.581,"end":26437.78,"text":"但是他們就在使用這些資料而且在決定所有的藥品要不要擠附新藥怎麼擠附法他們是關鍵的資料使用跟委託是兩回事他是現在到健保署裡面的資料中心來使用現在本來就是可以使用委託是資料庫移出去那個是兩回事不對啊你每年都有花幾千萬我也都去審查過那研究計畫他是來使用啦我們不是把資料給他把他限縮在客製中心來健保署限縮起來可以吧"},{"start":26440.023,"end":26443.447,"text":"現在是這樣目前是這樣對未來來講當然是這有兩種討論因為大家也在也有委員也有委員在談說不要都要到固定的空間"},{"start":26456.221,"end":26473.223,"text":"他就是要從網路就進來在他的實驗室或者是在辦公室那當然我們現在初步認為說這個風險很高到時候再去修法好不好所以都是限縮在一個固定的空間可是固定的空間就會變成像大家講的全台灣"},{"start":26474.827,"end":26497.719,"text":"不方便啦 南部的研究者相對來講就是變成不方便現在是不是要向國會院國會院也有南北國會院的中心 國會院就是屬於法人那你自己去設一個客製中心 南部中心通通在我們的公務預算還有編制上都會受到限制"},{"start":26499.466,"end":26519.747,"text":"會變成這樣嗎我覺得是越保守越好啦你把門打開了然後沒有設定框架然後這樣直接就打開這看起來開很開耶看起來開很開喔所以我們要給它限縮起來就是客製中心還有健保署要放進來嗎不用那本來就你們的那就客製中心"},{"start":26520.828,"end":26536.601,"text":"當然未來的,我們在立法說明欄就是指涉科資中心那未來如果他修的話,再去修法修掉如果到時候情境不一樣了,整個條件不一樣了再去修法就好了,就修一條而已啊現在沒有,現在就只能這樣子"},{"start":26541.994,"end":26563.509,"text":"越保守越好就是說現在有一些已經經過你們計畫核准的這些單位他要來存取這個資料他只是花半天時間就可以完成要多久 他要反反覆覆一直來你這個地方嗎要 要幾趟 一般是"},{"start":26580.844,"end":26593.866,"text":"他資料用完一次他就不能再用了然後下次再來繼續用可是這會是問題嗎不會啦現在高鐵從高雄到這裡才一個半小時而已客製中心在哪裡"},{"start":26596.601,"end":26621.475,"text":"南港喔 高鐵直接坐到南港最後一站很近我們經常被客訴啦 說怎麼把他們關在一個小房間他以前也是關在小房間啦 本來就關在小房間了啊那有多大 那你把空間改善變大一點沒有啊 你在外面的地方也叫客資中心啊這樣我來我們是主張"},{"start":26628.273,"end":26648.807,"text":"你這次就是要嚴格嘛 要嚴格管理嘛經過那個大法官重視那第二個剛剛林委員有提到提到那個處罰今天早上我有質詢20條跟21條就是說你牽涉到這種犯罪行為的時候是一年以下七年 一年以上七年以下如果有危害國家安全是三年以上十年以下我也問部長說 部長你覺得這個刑罰夠嗎部長你覺得刑罰夠嗎"},{"start":26653.667,"end":26657.533,"text":"都賣出去 都賣出去了耶這個東西喔 因為資料一洩漏了以後呢都這個覆水難收啊 這真的都無法挽救的所以這個東西當然是要越保守 然後"},{"start":26670.103,"end":26698.488,"text":"對 要慎重我們先處第七條啦 嘿 怎樣好啦 那第七條有一些就保留嘛 好不好第七條的部分如果依照委員的意見呢我們因為這是初步的專法第一次我只要為此 我再唸一次健保資料之特定目的外利用及管理逗點由主管機關及保險人為之拒號後面就先都刪除然後後面那個部分就等我們實施的一年或者之後再看看如果有需要我們再來修這樣子"},{"start":26702.896,"end":26724.51,"text":"那一句話因為我還是有那個委員會的在因為他到那個地方如果解開整個就解開了那第七條我本來還有一個兩個宗旨啊沒有啦沒有啦保留啦保留啦沒有啦沒有共識沒有共識來第八條請習近平機關說明"},{"start":26726.872,"end":26747.446,"text":"第八條的部分是明訂我要申請特地外墓地利用的墓地所以墓地我們寫得很清楚是應以提升醫療品質 公共衛生 社會福利促進學術研究發展與提供政府機關構及行政法人執行法定職務之墓地違憲"},{"start":26748.627,"end":26766.446,"text":"那這個部分呢林月群委員有提到他要增列第二項就是說特別明訂說不得為營利使用那陳昭芝委員寫到說應該申請應該要經當事人同意"},{"start":26768.077,"end":26792.086,"text":"那這裡呢行政當然先補充說明因為我們原來的目的違憲其實就是以公共利益為主所以本來就不含盈利的使用啦所以林月娟委員提的部分我們是建議還是維持院版然後至於陳昭之委員呢須經當事人同意那個是不是在後面因為後面我們針對那個民眾的退出權的部分在第第16期後面會再講"},{"start":26792.626,"end":26807.257,"text":"這不是退出權這是一個概念你們現在就是這樣做說我用是OK的如果你不要用才有退出權那現在我們的概念這個經過大法官處理之後我們的概念說我要都先經你同意我才肯就整個角度是不一樣的那請第二位林月琴這裡加個當事人同意有問題嗎"},{"start":26814.837,"end":26838.961,"text":"來 歡迎葉警衛先表達了好不好你們再一併回應好不好剛剛特別有講說你們本來就要用非營利來做使用可是也沒有任何在字眼上有去做這樣表達所以我覺得在這邊我還才會特別要去強調就是不得為營利使用我就要請惠夫夫這邊去做說明哪邊你們特別有去強調就是非營利使用"},{"start":26841.841,"end":26858.513,"text":"來 再請王振興委員說明完之後再請一併回應好 謝謝針對第八條的部分因為在條文本身是有講了蠻多item可是在立法說明裡面有一個很重要的字叫做公義"},{"start":26860.314,"end":26887.285,"text":"可是在這個條文裡面好像都沒有講到公益因為這個公益其實就是希望透過大數據來促進整個我們國民的健康這個就是公益那你未來會變成什麼樣的一些商業模式那是當然我們要特別要去留要去注意到的所以才會建議說在第八條的第二行社會福利後面再加上一個集公益三個字以上"},{"start":26890.182,"end":26890.445,"text":"來 新生機關回應"},{"start":26894.357,"end":26922.236,"text":"跟委員報告我們還是回到憲判主文他的主文一特別有提到在個資法第六條第一項但書第四款公務機關或學術研究機構基於醫療衛生等之公益目的為統計或學術研究而有必要且經資料經過提供者處理後或經收集者依其揭露方式無從辨識特別是當事人"},{"start":26924.677,"end":26949.692,"text":"與這個法律的明確性原則比例原則尚屬無誤所以意思就是說我們現在提供的這個方式他是肯認的憲法法庭是肯認只不過在他的主文這個憲判的主文的第第四段那他才提到說那但是呢欠缺當事人得請求停止利用之相關規定所以呢"},{"start":26950.552,"end":26976.71,"text":"以這個大法官的視線來看我們現在用這個經過處理之後不能夠無從揭露這個可辨識是特定人來做統計分析是合憲的也合法了那只不過沒有那個退出權的機制所以那個是這個立法上要補足的地方所以我們認為是不要再回過頭來每一個都要先"},{"start":26977.651,"end":27006.873,"text":"同意簽同意之後才在資料庫裡面可以使用因為我們已經是去辨識的那個跟可辨識當事人的那個資料的利用是不一樣那麼舉例而言在Bio Bank就是人體生物資料庫管理條例他那個就是要事前同意因為他那個都是可辨識性的資料跟我們現在健保在提供使用的是不能夠辨識的資料那個是不一樣的"},{"start":27010.309,"end":27015.032,"text":"好 謝謝 沒有公示就保留好不好接下來第九條第九條請說明行政機關沒有公示我們就是保留"},{"start":27024.742,"end":27051.897,"text":"第九條是在明訂申請者是哪些人所以申請者是以政府機關構行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構違憲那林月群委員有特別提出來他希望增列第二項非為中華民國境內登記設立之大學法人機構不得為前項之申請"},{"start":27052.897,"end":27078.665,"text":"增列第三項同時去強調同時中華民國境內及外國大陸地區香港或澳門登記設立是大學法人機構或位於外國大陸地區香港或澳門登記設立但設有分支機構辦事處隸屬關係單位是大學法人機構不得為第一項之申請那行政機關這邊的意見是"},{"start":27081.026,"end":27098.512,"text":"我們如果把條文就是第二項跟第三項我們如果把它改成我現在念就是簽條申參照林月琴委員的版本然後我們把院版的文字修正為簽條申請者逗點以政府機關購"},{"start":27100.213,"end":27100.914,"text":"我們修正這樣的文字 再聽聽看委員的意見來 請林書偉委員"},{"start":27125.018,"end":27132.422,"text":"我想聽一下全台灣的行政法人到底有幾個有哪些因為據我所知因為行政法人就是"},{"start":27134.437,"end":27158.263,"text":"就是為了鬆綁人事的任用還有鬆綁預算的使用所以我講過就是說行政法人基本上裡面都不是公務員然後那個流動性可能更高更強然後他的採購也不是用預算法所以他的預算其實我們立法院其實監督的力道是沒有辦法監督的老實說啦"},{"start":27159.443,"end":27178.179,"text":"那所以我們就想說行政法人有人在做這個醫療研究 我知道有三個行政法人 中科院 兩廳院沒有啊 他們這個人在做醫療研究 不可能嘛那還有誰行政法人誰舉得出來如果沒有的話行政法人是不是沒關係你講話好笑"},{"start":27185.973,"end":27213.155,"text":"跟医疗有关的其实不见得是医疗举例来讲国家中山科学研究院还有国家灾害防救科技中心也改成行政法人了灾防中心对对对那另外像国家运动训练中心他也改成法人了还有国家运动科学中心还有国家原子能科技研究院还有国家太空中心国家自动安全研究院等等我懂了"},{"start":27213.855,"end":27238.595,"text":"這樣子也不難就是說如果這一些法人老實說我們不放心法人我剛才說裡面的人都不是公務員啦流動性很強啦那他的預算在我們監督上我們也沒有辦法直接監督啦那所以如果他們要做真的需要做研究他們委託學術單位去去做研究也是有管道可以做的啦如果真的需要聽起來"},{"start":27240.962,"end":27253.411,"text":"需求度不會很高啦但也不能說沒有像運動災害他要研究健康跟他們的串接他們的那些東西有可能啦但是呢還是有懸殊機關可以讓他們委託啊他們法所以我們避開掉行政法人都沒關係"},{"start":27263.818,"end":27281.192,"text":"因為我覺得這好像是蠻值得思考的啦因為這些人 我也覺得不可信任 這些主流 他們來使用你現在這樣預防匪諜 他們中科院匪諜最多了 我沒騙你啦中科院啦 那些人就去中科院上班 那些護照要來健保資料運用 他們都拿去就看了啦"},{"start":27286.855,"end":27292.839,"text":"你後面月秦提的修正動議他透過中科院最容易就拿得到了"},{"start":27295.373,"end":27318.614,"text":"那請第二位 林蔚琴委員說明剛剛衛福部這樣子的一個調整我覺得沒有解決我第三項原本提的所以來問一下衛福部如果某醫院同時在台灣中國兩地登記今天台灣的醫院在研究當下取得統計國人基因缺陷的統計結果所得到的資料將與對岸"},{"start":27319.935,"end":27333.431,"text":"那間醫院共享並且後續研究由對岸那間醫院進行面對這樣的問題我們要怎麼防範因為你剛剛只解決我的第二項第二項是說等於是說不是在台灣設立的法人機構可是我現在"},{"start":27334.753,"end":27352.772,"text":"我的第三項你事實上是沒有解決的甚至樣態另外一個我剛剛講如果設辦事處的話如果某國立大學在中國清華大學建立學術合作機制在中國清華大學如果互設辦事處可是該辦事處沒有跟兩國的政府註冊登記"},{"start":27355.555,"end":27377.731,"text":"國內大學來申請做資料統計的時候所得到資料跟對岸那間大學共享的話甚至交給他做後續研究面對這個你又要怎麼處理所以我的為什麼第二項第三項我們非常堅持要放進去有他背後的一個可是你現在解決的是說那列出來你只是把第二項是不是在台灣登記的設立的大學跟法人"},{"start":27378.291,"end":27403.865,"text":"可是我說同時如果在中華民國境內跟外國中國大陸地區都有或澳港澳有設立的有沒有解決這個問題啊甚至他設有辦事處的各位人就說明因為第三項所提列的齁我這個部分如果是跟學術機關有關我不是那麼清楚是不是在這些相關有去設立辦事處或分支機構啦那這必須要再研議還要去調查那"},{"start":27404.705,"end":27427.631,"text":"至於說我們現在審查的機制跟委員說明我們現在要申請的時候申請計畫書上面的欄位資料有一個就是要有機關另外一個就是要申請因為計畫都要有主持人所以會有明確主持人的姓名跟機關所以這個地方我們就會去做審查如果假設機關那邊我們認為如果還有"},{"start":27430.592,"end":27445.312,"text":"無法判斷他是屬於如果是中華民國境內那一定沒有問題但是如果他寫的機關的那個名稱我們就是覺得很有有一些爭議那或許我們就可以提出來那但是委員所要提的是說這裡要明確啦行政機關這邊沒有"},{"start":27448.015,"end":27468.662,"text":"不過目前現行就是我們現在就有的確台灣有在這邊設大學也有到中國那邊設同樣的那一樣的如果他要來以他在台灣的身份來取得這些資料事實上是容易的可是實際上他是在那邊認資料你怎麼去分得出來所以我們才會講說這個是不是要有個限制在"},{"start":27469.582,"end":27484.402,"text":"那跟委員說明我還是要再次強調他們拿不到資料的不管是誰我們的資料都是在安全的作業環境裡面去做處理的最後他只能拿出結果所以他是沒辦法拿到role data的我再次強調可是他進去"},{"start":27484.963,"end":27507.154,"text":"一樣啊在你們的小房間如果去進行研究去看這些資料的話一樣的啊是那如果那個部分我再補充因為現行我們的機制裡頭每一個申請的研究計畫相關的主持人跟裡面的那個就是那個團隊的組成每一個人都要寫切結書每個人都要寫切結書也就是如果針對有資料外線你覺得寫切結書有用嗎"},{"start":27509.375,"end":27537.645,"text":"不是事後 事前他就要所以有一天你去發現這個問題才會是事後有效用在啊所以我認為還是要放這二我的第二項你把病到第一項我沒有意見 第三項這部分如果是保留啦那我們下次審查的時候可以請教一部請教一部來說明是不是類似像這樣的機構有多少這樣子反正前面都保留不差我這一條"},{"start":27539.124,"end":27561.597,"text":"可能除了教育部我不曉得國科會因為他們比較有針對這些那個學術研究的部分好要保留我還在講好請說好來還是我要教的沒有啦不會第九條就是有關於這個前面大學本身就是具備有申請資格嘛那最後呢又說受政府機關委託是大學"},{"start":27565.599,"end":27586.461,"text":"頓豪法人頓豪機構違憲你再用一個百合這樣不曉得是特別要標示他是台灣的大學還是非台灣的大學也可以申請才會把這個大學又放進來如果說大學本身就已經可以獨立來做申請的話那就不需要再受政府機關委託是大學"},{"start":27587.202,"end":27616.096,"text":"行政大會補充後面那一項受政府機關委託是大學法人是因為政府機關夠如果他本於自己全責業務的如果有一些要做政策研擬他委託因為我們現在政府機關有很多的委託研究計畫嘛所以他是委託給相關的大學或法人機構去做研究學術研究是這個意思但是原來的研究機構大學他本身就可以自己獨立提出來做學術研究"},{"start":27616.776,"end":27633.824,"text":"另外一個性質是由政府機關構委託委託給大學跟法人機構來做學術研究的補充說明我趕快補充一點 石組長你怎麼沒有趕快跟您十分委員說你以後的chapter是行政法人"},{"start":27634.98,"end":27635.601,"text":"你還在跑嗎 你們正在跑嗎"},{"start":27652.233,"end":27679.23,"text":"對 就是說第九條那個是概括性的這個可申請對象然後那個詳細的部分是在第十條跟第十一條才是去各自切分有的是本於這個法定職務來申請的另外一個是要經過審議會的申請的所以那個行政法應該是要保留在第九條的項目裡頭才有第十一條的適用這樣"},{"start":27684.543,"end":27705.356,"text":"第9條各位還是有意見嗎那就保留第10條請行政機關說明第10條的部分就是我們這個條例是針對特定目的外利用的專法那我們第10條是針對政府機關購他現行就是依他的"},{"start":27706.036,"end":27722.212,"text":"行政法人執行法定職務申請特定目的外利用健保資料應該以書面向保險人提出那取得的不管是政府機關構跟行政法人他取得健保資料的運用及管理"},{"start":27723.693,"end":27739.941,"text":"因依各該機關構及行政法人所依據的法律辦理那麼第一項所提到的相關的申請程序那應該要檢附的文件健保資料提供方式及其他應遵循事項的辦法會授權由主管機關來定之"},{"start":27742.082,"end":27754.089,"text":"那第三項的部分是有特別提到因為司法機關因為偵查審判會執行之法定職務調取健保資料因應訴訟法規辦理監察機關執行法定職務調取健保資料因應監察法規辦理"},{"start":27760.353,"end":27786.506,"text":"醫院版的精神上頭只要是政府機關購或者是行政法人他執行他法定職務不管是司法院或是監察院他仍然都必須要依我這個法的定定他一樣要提出申請程序只不過這一條的申請程序我們會跟待會第十一條會有一個區別因為第十條他已經是依法定職務執掌所以他只要能夠申請的時候續名他所依據的"},{"start":27787.526,"end":27808.662,"text":"法律是哪一條他可以去取得健保資料那我們這邊就可以用書面的方式來審核他就不需要像第十一條還要寫完整的計畫書因為這一條是在規範政府機關構他依照他的職權法定職長來跟健保跟來取得健保資料的明定以上我可以請問一下嗎那個"},{"start":27811.175,"end":27830.728,"text":"因為我不太了解食物運作目前有沒有司法機關或者是監察機關來跟你們調取治療是什麼樣的情況因為即使是他們我覺得在處理的程序上也不是他們說了算你們如果食藥是比較嚴謹那為什麼他們就比較鬆散呢"},{"start":27831.533,"end":27851.338,"text":"法院啦 法院對啊 是什麼樣的情況法院需要調你們的健保資料是因為民事 刑事 還是什麼樣的情況都有都有那他們不用經過那個當事人同意 他進行就可以調閱嗎如果涉及到個人的"},{"start":27854.774,"end":27882.786,"text":"那通常剛剛提到的例子這個會來用到健保資料原則上基本上都是個人比較多也就是個案是因為個案那因為是執行他的法定職權所需要去釐清這個個案到底發生了什麼事所以他要的是個人的資料是大部分都是個人那他需要經個人同意嗎這個部分因為依訴訟法或依那個但我不太懂因為你健保的資料是還是是他個人的資料因為司法"},{"start":27884.279,"end":27908.373,"text":"可以舉一個例子因為我不太了解實務上到底是什麼樣的情況是法院可以進行去調他個人在健保的資料因為他個人健保資料是他的健康你懂我意思嗎那那個跟就是哪一種類型我現在不太能理解第二個是監察院監察院在什麼樣的職權範圍底下他必須不經本人同意直接進行去調閱他個人的"},{"start":27909.728,"end":27925.911,"text":"他這邊也要寫監察院所以我覺得是什麼樣的情況去直接去要個人的健康資料在司法的運用上跟監察院的運用上我覺得這個要釐清要不然也是授權過大報告委員我的印象中"},{"start":27928.02,"end":27945.866,"text":"警察機關來講可能有因為民眾他因為違反什麼交通管理條例等造成了那個糾紛車禍什麼的糾紛等等的所以他要去釐清這個個案什麼情況如果有涉及到需要從我們的健保資料裡面去確定他到底有沒有來就醫或是等等的"},{"start":27946.386,"end":27967.033,"text":"類似這種情形那他就會依照這個個案因為可能還會有造成不同除了當事人還有他造成其他民眾的傷害嗎那應該都會送送送就醫嗎那些就醫的資料他可能要去釐清所以呢他就會來要求說請健保署提供這些人的就醫資料有時候會是因為去釐清"},{"start":27968.873,"end":27994.511,"text":"因為有些案子涉及到調查我不好講可是過去大家如果有印象就是乍領保險費就是那個假迷癌針手術那個鬧得很大我們還開罰了把那個醫師的那個醫師證書廢止的那個案子就是去串聯假保險去投保然後呢他就串聯了這個醫師做了虛偽的診斷然後把子宮"},{"start":27998.333,"end":28019.402,"text":"也手術了但是病人本身沒有迷癌他那個檢體給他調包變成說他有迷癌所以他就來調這個所有的個案資料從他過去的病例來看他是不是真的有迷癌的紀錄所以是這樣子來的所以那個就是要調個案詐領保險費那個案子是弄得很大那個"},{"start":28025.523,"end":28047.059,"text":"還有一些那個精神狀態好像有時候那個保險公司嗎請問你們有監督機制嗎保險公司沒有辦法跟我們直接申請不會 那個都是法院都是要到法院的來 還有誰要講 來"},{"start":28050.663,"end":28076.664,"text":"抱歉因為聽起來好像是都個案居多啦但是也不排除要的資料會有大量的啦那所以我們提了一個修正動議說當然雖然是大家都覺得政府機關好像看起來比較保險可是政府機關其實是很不保險的所以我們增訂了一個如果你政府機關申請應用大量健保資料的時候你其實申請者你這些機關要訂出使用管理規範其實"},{"start":28078.425,"end":28085.932,"text":"你就是對資料你到底使用的目的和方式是什麼然後你要接觸的人的安全你的管理規範有沒有訂出來那你資料的事件預防通報和應變作業的程序你其實我們都要克著這些機關未來"},{"start":28093.618,"end":28121.597,"text":"其實都對於大量資料的使用還有這個運用還有管理其實都要很完善的機制所以到時候包括資料使用的目的消失的時候你要怎麼刪除停止處理或怎麼利用都必須法制化這些作業然後才允許他才可以來要啦好 換林月琴委員我想 衛福部這邊針對我的反本沒有那個做回應"},{"start":28124.381,"end":28151.101,"text":"沒有回應就是不認同嗎不認同也要講不認同啊 讓我們知道一下到底怎麼樣不認同沒有回應就是認同 對不起 更正那我們就照林月琴委員的林月琴委員有特別提到說未經被保險人與事前同意者不得為第一項資料之提供對 那是事前同意啦但是我們剛剛已經有說明了"},{"start":28153.123,"end":28169.442,"text":"對 跟委員報告就是那個月群委員的意見我們是後面那個淑芬委員也有一個版本就是有個冷凍期啦在那個冷凍期來來行駛退出啊那個冷凍期沒有來退出就視同同意了所以等於是用那個方式來處理這樣"},{"start":28170.623,"end":28197.976,"text":"所以就不在這裡每一案都要在事前同意所以等一下在後面會對後面會處理那要跟我們講一下對對對至於那個剛剛淑芬委員所提的新增對於這個其他主管機關依法定職務來申請使用大量資料的時候的一些要求管理規範我們認同我們其實目前也有要求那我們這個大量資料要怎麼界定立法說明欄要不要寫說明你們的想像會是什麼"},{"start":28199.484,"end":28212.772,"text":"立法說明欄要寫上去要想像是什麼基本上它就是不屬於特定個案不是特定個案那個就是屬於大量不是一個特定個案之外的啦不特定個案都是啦譬如說它只是下一個條件這個條件比較模糊的那一種"},{"start":28215.794,"end":28238.808,"text":"要某個人的或是某個有個資資料的那個就算個案那沒有個資資料特定人士以外的全部都屬於大量對就是未指定未指定單特定個人的那個我們就是屬於大量資料來處理或者是把大量資料改成說申請未指定個人"},{"start":28241.21,"end":28253.403,"text":"非特定對象的非特定個人的這個健保資料的就要定出來不要講大量就非特定個人的是不是這樣的字眼比較好非特定個人好"},{"start":28258.467,"end":28275.407,"text":"就是針對剛剛在討論這個有關於大量或者是非特定我們用921大地震為例那個時候針對當地的這些民眾都是目的外使用的話那如何能夠有這樣好的規範我想是非常重要"},{"start":28281.8,"end":28301.651,"text":"第四條還是先保留啦你們就保溫室修正嘛然後立法說明補充嘛然後可不可以請你們再補充資料就是剛剛講的司法機關跟監察機關過去使用的現在是討論的時候你們補充說明一下好不好他們的必要性在哪裡而且像監察院會難以理解為什麼監察"},{"start":28303.171,"end":28326.423,"text":"會員會去調個人的資料有像監察院過去有名的例子就是像那個那個那個那個叫什麼那個那個中毒的那個那個環境中毒的那個案子他就那個那個那個多綠聯本對多綠聯本那個案子就是他來調個案資料到底處理的情形怎樣有"},{"start":28327.123,"end":28353.398,"text":"比較少對不對因為我也很難想像監察院到底是什麼去調你們的資料多立聯本那個就是一個好那現在是審議的時候再來討論好繼續來第11條那個主席跟副委員報告一下就那個檢查機關還有法院我們會就個案需要偵查犯罪的時候我們有必須要調查犯罪情形跟蒐集證據的時候這種個案需要調查證據是非常"},{"start":28354.6,"end":28378.384,"text":"是蠻常見的而且我們必須直接申請直接去調資料而不是透過行政機關來調取這個是訴訟法的基本的調查證據的精神還有一些作為那像比如說如果像過去也有健保詐欺像這種案件我們一定是需要調那個健保資料的那個就那個是完全是根據訴訟法的我們的憲法上的職權以上好謝謝萬創司的補充來接下來第11條"},{"start":28386.162,"end":28409.26,"text":"請行政機關說明11條的部分是明訂就是政府機關構行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學即受政府機關委託是大學法人機構來申請健保資料特定目的外利用了除了第10條第10條執行法定職務的情形以外都應該來申請主管機關"},{"start":28411.021,"end":28430.572,"text":"或保險人審查核准之後他才能夠利用那這個部分我們在第二項會續明說申請者應該要就核定的一些如果第一項去明確規定就是主管機關或保險人審查核准之後呢他會用書面通知申請者"},{"start":28431.152,"end":28446.691,"text":"那申請者如果經過核准後的這個計畫如果有修正變更或展延之需要時仍然要依照第一項的規定來提出申請而且一樣要經過主管機關跟保險人審查核准後 使得執行"},{"start":28447.432,"end":28472.792,"text":"那前兩項的申請資格條件程序申請書還有特定目的外利用計劃應該記載的內容以及剛剛委員很關心的審查程序與基準費準核准收費及其他相關遵行的辦法這個是授權由主管機關定之那這一條的部分呢有王正旭委員他有特別強調要把申請書第一項申請書的內容要載明"},{"start":28475.694,"end":28491.639,"text":"這些細節的部分都定在母法上那還多增列了一項就是公開的資料也就是說申請人這些如果經過主管機關或保險核可後呢除了涉及國家安全個人隱私商業"},{"start":28492.719,"end":28518.969,"text":"秘密經申請人主管機關保險要求及審議會認定者以外均應該要對外的公開那林淑芳委員的修正呢是有特別在我們原來的三項後面又增加了兩項也就是增列了申請是由主管機關保險分別邀請相關專家學者公民團體保險對象社會公證人士及政府機關代表共同參與審查"},{"start":28520.37,"end":28537.799,"text":"那至於前項的專家選擇公民團體及社會公正人士不得少於總數二分之一然後任意性別不得少於總數三分之一那另外召委 劉建國委員所提出來的修正建議呢是跟林淑芬委員是一樣的 以上說明來 請第二位說明 來 請林委員"},{"start":28542.968,"end":28562.404,"text":"抱歉 我覺得我好像最後兩項 應該是一二三第四項開始 應該再更明確一點因為想到那些審議的人 你要叫他叫什麼名字好像沒有設一個名稱出來好像這些審議的專家 學者 還有公民團體 說你們是誰"},{"start":28565.126,"end":28591.219,"text":"沒有一個職稱所以我是不是應該講說第一項及第二項的申請由申請審議委員會審查之那申請審議委員會的組成由主管機關保險人等等這樣子是不是這樣子會看起來更具體當然這個名稱叫什麼叫申請審議委員會或是什麼的大家也可以再討論"},{"start":28593.646,"end":28614.551,"text":"但是就是說如果沒有一個這個委員會的名稱的話那這些人事審查的人他們這些委員叫什麼名字然後也要叫委員嗎是什麼的好像無從區隔啦跟諮詢 諮議會不一樣要有一個區隔這樣子"},{"start":28618.884,"end":28639.873,"text":"來 請提案委員講完之後再請你們一併回答好不好 好 謝謝因為當初我們在第四條認為把它改成審議會事實上就可以利用審議會的名義來做這些事情所以就沒有像蘇委員所擔心的那到時候我們要審議是用什麼樣的方式還有需要用什麼樣的組成"},{"start":28641.353,"end":28665.261,"text":"來做這個事情所以這邊也需要針對這個部分在實質審查的過程裡面如果能夠把它定位清楚那另外一個部分就是我們在追加相關申請書的內容希望放在這個文法裡面基本上就是希望能夠更具體不過我如果可以把它挪到這個立法說明裡面的話也可以贊同"},{"start":28666.261,"end":28687.86,"text":"那另外就是有關於最後一項申請人申請書等等那個部分基本上就是希望能夠有一個公開讓民眾都可以知道如果一個申請案進來經過審議以後他同意他來執行那個具體內容會是什麼我有公開才能夠讓民眾更安心以上"},{"start":28691.383,"end":28703.62,"text":"抱歉我再補充一句好了就是說因為這一條主要在講的是需要受審查機制管理的約束的人反正他就要申請資料的"},{"start":28704.781,"end":28723.849,"text":"但是它不是政府機關說直接本於法律就可以直接來要的而是說它需要受一個審查機制審理完以後才許可利用這些資料的所以我還是把它建議成說這個名字叫做申請特定目的外利用的審議委員會"},{"start":28727.028,"end":28749.685,"text":"好啦 你看你的意見 聽聽看你的意見來 請署長回應跟委員報告是這樣因為在這個條文的第三項其實對於審查程序基準及其他運輸演算有一個授權辦法啦所以我們本來是在授權辦法裡面去訂這個審查的小組的那些名稱都在這裡頭"},{"start":28750.626,"end":28772.544,"text":"那只是說如果要明定讓他更清楚的是哪一些人來做審查的工作所以我們是認同這個召委跟林淑芬委員的修正動議在第四項的部分去明定出這個申請的審查成員應該有哪一些背景"},{"start":28772.984,"end":28794.82,"text":"那麼以及相關的比例這個把它明定出來那至於說這個名稱或什麼為了避免這個同一個法律有混淆所以我們是把它定在授權法規裡頭再來用這個辦法來定但是我持不同的意見的原因是在於說整部法律最核心是在這裡"},{"start":28795.86,"end":28818.263,"text":"執議會事實上它可能大的政策方向或是這裡的有爭議在上升到那裡或是個人要退出有爭議上升到那裡可是最實質的審查把關其實就是在這個地方它到底符不符合我們整部法律講的目的外的利用而且你不是政府機關你是政府機關以外的這麼多的學術"},{"start":28819.204,"end":28838.712,"text":"以學術之名的這個來要求要資料的那我們在這裡要好好的把關那你把它授權成執法執法裡面那個位階感覺又小的更小所以這個把關的機制以法律明定之那可以更突顯的出來說我們對於這一個"},{"start":28842.634,"end":28854.642,"text":"審查把關的機制的看重的程度啦所以我認為還是還是要把它明定名稱叫什麼那有執議會執議會你那個執議會你任務在那然後組成在那兩條那你的審議會也沒有名也沒有這樣一條一條還沒有全部一條的五分之一而已"},{"start":28871.713,"end":28899.283,"text":"一個條文還不是兩個條文一個條文還只是五分之一五分之二而已所以我的意思是說是不是我們應該考慮審議會的名稱組成放進去這樣子我們用審查會審查會 對因為他們前面都要求要審查嘛因為這個是審查嘛對應我們的授權法規啦對啦 審查啦我們用審查會好了"},{"start":28901.124,"end":28928.877,"text":"那委會跟各位徵詢一下,我們今天開會是到五點半,那我們是不是就到五點半嘛對不對?那如果審查還是要持續,先請教各位一下的意見如果沒有我們就到五點半,然後擇起再審嘛,是不是這樣?我們是到五點半啦好"},{"start":28934.918,"end":28962.743,"text":"是啊,沒有錯,所以我還是徵詢,因為開會時間是到五點半嘛怎麼到五點半?今天我們還是說大家溝通你看你們,我都可以我是建議,是不是要溝通一下,下次再來一次?啊大家是在揍你們啦,我就是揍你們啦我知道,我還是要徵詢各位意見,因為開會時間是到五點半,我們是不是要審到五點半然後審,不然就是折戟再審還是各位有什麼其他意見,是這樣徵詢各位意見"},{"start":28975.503,"end":28985.891,"text":"主席確實每一條大家的意見都蠻分歧的啦就是說這樣會就是說那怪你們啊你們都沒有來好好溝通嗎你們就推出來我們就收啊"},{"start":28986.553,"end":29011.658,"text":"我是沒有覺得很分歧主席我們是不是到一個段落就可以就這個段落就不一定要到5點半所以徵詢大家意見我是這樣提議報告趙偉因為12條跟13條大家都沒有意見是不是可以目前12條跟13條是大家都沒有意見你確定大家沒有意見"},{"start":29014.6,"end":29036.168,"text":"是目前有沒有對沒有修正動議然後對然後昭緯不好意思我剛剛講錯了一個就是昭緯你有提到那個審查小組的委員成員跟林淑芬委員就差在昭緯你這邊要把病友團體加進來然後林淑芬委員沒有不過那個部分我們到時候再一併來說明所以是不是可以請求可以看能不能12條13條就可以通過這樣"},{"start":29040.032,"end":29053.79,"text":"好那就11條先保留嘛你們把相關文字修正之後我們下次再討論嘛好那繼續來第12條先生有沒有什麼意見來各位有沒有意見那我們就12條通過來繼續第13條13"},{"start":29058.662,"end":29070.632,"text":"13條先生今天有沒有什麼特別要表達沒有嘛沒有各位有沒有什麼意見那沒有我們就通過嘛對不對就這樣好好那我們就到13條是不是那其他我們就折旗再來審查齁OK好謝謝"},{"start":29073.157,"end":29094.109,"text":"另外公告陳穎薇的書面執行也列入在這次的委員會列入公報先要做一下決議全民健安保險資料管理條例草案等兩案三位審查完略另擇期繼續審查本會議到此結束,現在休息星期四早上九點繼續開會,謝謝"},{"start":29105.266,"end":29108.809,"text":"是星期三早上九點,不是星期四,因為他拉給我是星期四"}]}},{"id":"162329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162329","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b8445925f57e664325c51baba6a1b99ce3116a01e95dc6d29d716babefde21dfa2b36bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:17:32 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這是一個被外部部所控制的一個執議會所以沒有任何獨立性可言所以今天條例有很多問題 包括憲法判決的當中認為很重要對外傳輸 對外提供利用的主體目的要件範圍"},{"start":82.873,"end":104.221,"text":"等等方式都不在這個查案裡面有加以處理我不知道衛福部是沒有看懂或是沒注意還是要迴避這個大法官的判決意旨但無論如何今天這個法案應該要停下來退回請衛福部重新提出核心的版本否則我們如果按照衛福部的版本去審議三讀恐怕又是一個違憲的法律誕生好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員的程序花言那我想"},{"start":112.301,"end":112.785,"text":"我想這一個"}]}},{"id":"162328","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162328","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b844592072b3233e796a7f7ba6a1b99ce3116a01e95dc6d29d716ba440e68855abdbf165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"09:12:16 - 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我也有質詢過就是醫事放射師薪資過低的問題以及你們解釋他們說可以去打顯影劑的問題那今天呢 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請邱部長請邱部長委員好部長好那我延續這個中委員問的跟從這個全民對 從我們的健保費這個部分開始是全民健保法的第60條規定那健保總額由主管機關於年度開始"},{"start":27.159,"end":49.588,"text":"六個月前你訂它的範圍是請問衛福部目前啊日前所提的明年的健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有給國發會了有沒有報國發會了我們今天已經送出去了今天送出去是好那如果採高推估值的話準備金可能會低於一個月那這個是不是也代表說你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論請教部長那明年你們會啟動這個調漲保費嗎"},{"start":58.388,"end":74.184,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分以我們的推估是不需要調漲保惠因為這個部分第一個我們補充保惠的狀況還有基本工資會提升這個還有部分負擔的一個實現這個都可以挹注到"},{"start":76.226,"end":90.142,"text":"呃 健保來 齁 謝謝部長但是你們陳時中政委卻說如果是 另外還有一個是我們呃 不是現在在的那個增加的稅收 齁 對以政府 以行政院的規劃是有兩百億會到"},{"start":91.283,"end":114.646,"text":"案前準備基金這邊來所以我們算5.5的時候其實只有少了大概30多億應該很容易可以補過來因為陳時中政委卻說漲保費這個事是代商協商的事情啦也就是換句話說好像沒有把這件事情縮死所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣或者是不夠有共識你們這部分有沒有溝通過"},{"start":115.887,"end":132.779,"text":"我想陳政委他是考慮的更多的一個情況,我們衛福部是在執行,我們更加的來計算。部長,所以我們是比較擔心,就是說這個結構上是不是會有困難?"},{"start":133.559,"end":161.838,"text":"那尤其說這個醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足恐怕還需要一兩年採取這個高推估值才能夠將這個國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度的GDP的8%所以如果明年沒有採這個所謂高推估值的話是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額移到公務預算之中所以我剛剛說延續剛剛中委員的所以請教部長這部分是不是已經檢討出來了"},{"start":163.859,"end":185.769,"text":"例如說癌症型藥基金今年是50億那明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億或獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億跟提升這個保險服務成效計畫的5億我意思就是說這個部分你們有沒有會擴大去檢討"},{"start":188.548,"end":214.194,"text":"這個部分其實我們感謝行政院在預算編的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點其實也認為這是對民眾是很需要的對醫療品質很需要所以編進去那我相信以這樣的精神明年的也會照樣明年的公務預算還是就是說應該有公務預算的這個部分我們會繼續在爭取我相信行政院會支持"},{"start":217.916,"end":236.669,"text":"這個會增加整個健保的一個額度非常謝謝委員的關心好謝謝那這個部分請這個我們部長和署長是不是你們大概什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告那另外回來到今天的這個草案喔"},{"start":237.429,"end":254.782,"text":"部長今天討論這個法案我們先討論一下說這個專案立專法必要性的問題啦那當然憲判制第13號的主文第三點就是說就個人的健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健保署的這個資料庫的儲存處理對外傳輸及對外利用"},{"start":258.484,"end":286.236,"text":"這個之主體目的要件範圍等等等的這種重要的事項於全民健康保險法的第79條第80條及相關的法律中均欠缺明確的規定那在這此範圍內是不符合憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求也違反這個憲法第22條的保障人民資訊的隱私權之意旨那相關機關應該自本判決宣誓之日起"},{"start":286.816,"end":311.098,"text":"三年內修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律或制定專法明定之那這個部分我只想要請教一下部長為何不是採取修健保法的方式或者是採取而是採取設立專法的方式請教部長有關於設立專法或在原本法條中設立專章或者是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法的79條80條"},{"start":312.739,"end":333.95,"text":"我只是想要請教一下部長你們這個修法的判定依據跟標準是什麼就是說採取設立專法這件事情好 這個從上一任政府的期間就針對這個憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全所以那個時候是用衛生福利整個資料相關的都一直在討論到我們上任以後其實也是衛福部一個大工程"},{"start":341.694,"end":357.384,"text":"一直在跟一直在研議然後因為這牽涉到人民的權益嘛怎麼樣又符合憲判的一個部分好 所以副長換句話說就是你們希望更完善的立法對不對更完善的詳細的後來因為覺得還是先說在全民健保資料"},{"start":358.945,"end":386.938,"text":"它有獨特性所以就是後來名字就變成全民健保的一個資料這樣子好部長所以憲判13號是說在111年的時候就宣判了而且揭示說三年內應該要修法但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議那這中間其實也拖了延宕了三年所以這個原因是什麼會不會這個會不會檢討了太久其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕因為很多修法"},{"start":387.998,"end":396.391,"text":"像我們過去很多法也都是NE的很多年那這個我們很小心可是因為三年的時間快到了嘛"},{"start":398.172,"end":423.952,"text":"那我想要再進一步問啦其實簡單來講就是這個時間點好像現在才是很緊急很倉促喔第一個再來就問說行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步的明確揭示說實質這個審核標準跟行政透明機制所以是僅讓我們看起來是僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量喔就會淪為這個形式上合憲可是實際上是否違反比例原則導致"},{"start":424.933,"end":442.959,"text":"原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護換句話說就是你們行政院的版本的草案雖然回應了憲判第13號的相關的要求但是他的條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督跟問責制度"},{"start":443.719,"end":469.02,"text":"還是讓人感覺相當的薄弱或者是其他裁量的空間過大的嫌疑那還有很多的問題就是我其實剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題就是說他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者是不明確其實這還是顯現了這個立法的倉促所以本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權那針對這類的敏感資料"},{"start":471.562,"end":485.628,"text":"在本草案中雖然設有這個16到19條提說請求停止跟例外不許停止但是沒有對於所謂例外情況進行實質的界定那所謂何謂是重大公益跟"},{"start":486.109,"end":506.667,"text":"無可替代的學術必要性其實在這上面模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損所以例如說所謂的疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的那從這個基礎學術研究藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而主"},{"start":507.734,"end":534.701,"text":"所以那如果行政機關一律認定所謂的疫苗研究就是等於重大公益的話那這會不會導致這個條這個導致例外條款過度的膨脹幾乎可以說我只要這樣子宣稱那都可以包山包海大家都可以去這樣用那就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞所以在這部分部長為何這個行政院版本針對當事人行使這個請求停止"},{"start":535.541,"end":559.481,"text":"利用權的程序跟審查標準的規範不足是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於這個資訊不對等的劣勢因為包含剛剛其實我也有注意到也有委員問的就是這個東西的實力比如說你在請求使用這些資料的時候是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道說我這個東西要準備被使用我可以趕快去停止被使用"},{"start":561.16,"end":587.156,"text":"所以這個配套顯然是很不足嘛 對不對 部長好 謝謝委員的關心提出非常精闢的一個建議那有關於你現在列出的第19條這個部分其實它都有做好配套措施比如說依其他法律主管機關及保險人員有提供之義務那這個也不是霸王條例而是說就是有說真的是國家的需要"},{"start":588.536,"end":606.787,"text":"所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就會不會很模糊這是在第十條就有很清楚的寫清楚那第二個跟第三個基本上是基本上還算是蠻容易定義的但是這個部分我們還有審查小組當然他要按照一定的規定以外還有審查小組還有諮議會"},{"start":608.919,"end":634.898,"text":"來審查是不是真的是合乎到第二項第三好 部長那我再進一步問草案第15條即申請者若產生產業的利益應該提撥回饋金但是也沒有明確規範說產業利益的認定跟比率那這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制會形同虛設或者是模糊不清那例如假設產學合作的時候如果定義產業利益何時發生"},{"start":636.579,"end":650.638,"text":"那這部分的這個界定到底你們會怎麼處理這個部分是這樣子 因為只是想讓我個人覺得說健保署在研議的當中是有考慮到實際上的情況比如說我剛剛講過有那個"},{"start":653.502,"end":670.528,"text":"我們癌症醫院齁癌症病人很需要臨床試驗因為臨床試驗齁可以省下他們很多很高昂貴的藥物所以你去問那個癌症醫院的院長他都說希望政府爭取更多的國外的藥廠來我們台灣做臨床試驗這樣可以"},{"start":674.589,"end":691.847,"text":"在台灣當然協助也有幫助讓真的病人沒有錢的可以來進臨床試驗而這個研究以後就有可能會有成就如果他的結果非常好"},{"start":692.648,"end":717.416,"text":"可能他就可以到治療更多的病人以外當然這公司就有利益嘛那這其實是三領的局面但是這個時候我們也要訂一些所以部長我想要講就是說這個機制好像目前看起來這個草案都還很模糊這個在社群上我們會好好的討論但是討論都還不夠詳細所以我擔心的就是這個啊現在看起來就是還是太模糊所有的東西都還是很模糊所以我剛剛講的時間嘛"},{"start":720.157,"end":734.97,"text":"我們這把它佈置的完整就好了所以剛剛有問配套啦都可以授權來處理那我進一步問你這個像健保資料的資議會雖然在草案的第四條內有依法設置但它是否僅是諮詢的角色"},{"start":735.891,"end":740.555,"text":"其實在他之前有一個審查小組這個都運轉的相當的好這運轉小組有24個專家委員會依據他不同的申請案來調配專家這已經有審查的機制然後到執議會如果有比較困難決定的"},{"start":758.451,"end":778.172,"text":"需要討論的、爭議的,那就到知事會來討論,不然的話你不可能讓審議會一個案一個案在審啊,那可能...好,部長,那我再進一步問喔,這個諮詢會議目前是規定需要納入不同領域的專家嘛,還有人權團體嘛,但是並沒有強制揭露議事記錄跟決策過程?"},{"start":780.25,"end":792.962,"text":"好像並沒有在這上面說要怎麼樣的透明機制其實我前面有提到所以其實我們之前包含我跟本席跟部長我們有很多的質詢都都跟這有關係包含這疫苗審查等等的問題嗎我想要請問這衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料"},{"start":798.005,"end":821.03,"text":"這個會議的意識公開然後決議的結果書面揭露然後還有再來就是是否要考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向讓這些制度可以讓民眾可以更安心自己的資料安心被使用因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡啊好 謝謝我想會議紀錄應該是公開是沒有問題"},{"start":824.83,"end":844.87,"text":"另外他的成果其實我們已經在網站裡面有把最新計畫還有計畫的...這樣開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明?可以?蘇長說可以嗎?好那你答應我們希望在這個部分這個配套要這樣做可是其實我整段這樣問下來我其實也想要表達一個概念總結來說其實剛剛這麼多的細節的問題"},{"start":849.758,"end":864.83,"text":"都是因為這次行政院的草案基本上概括性的授權和討論空間真的很大那有很多地方是需要細部的討論這也是體現我想要請教一下部長這個這樣子的草案在立法院有公聽會過嗎這次的草案王勝旭委員有召開過公聽會幾次一次所以這麼重要的一個"},{"start":879.944,"end":907.904,"text":"所以在公聽會的部分立法院只開過一次嘛對不對所以這也就是說剛剛說的這樣子的情況擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見它產生這樣子的疑慮和民眾的疑慮所以去年其實有一句政治口號是喊得漫天乍響但是專門攻擊這個所謂的特定陣營的法案叫做沒有討論不是民主啊可是過去那個法案當時那個法案公聽會次數比這個還多啊"},{"start":908.584,"end":923.667,"text":"所以這樣子的法案的推行跟審議的程序還有沒有足夠的社會溝通我覺得這樣的情況就會讓剛剛我來的過程我說連立法院的同仁裡面的同仁都很有各種疑慮啊 部長"},{"start":924.71,"end":940.555,"text":"所以這部分你們要怎麼完善從今天的委員的一個執行我覺得委員都很瞭解都已經聽到很多很多的民意所以我想對於等一下如果要討論的時候會有很大的幫助我們也希望"},{"start":942.356,"end":968.488,"text":"也會希望委員大家多多討論把它弄得更周全創造一個三領的法沒有可是所以我剛剛就說嘛就是不是真的到這裡這樣子逐條叫做真的周全啦真的是這個可能還需要部長這邊要再更加大的力道怎麼樣做出社會溝通讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心以及剛剛說的如何確保每一個人在被使用資料之前他是知道的然後他也可以趕快"},{"start":969.975,"end":971.938,"text":"請求停止我們一定讓人民安心"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時17分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。我也延續鍾委員問的，從我們的健保費這個部分開始，全民健保法第六十條規定健保總額由主管機關於年度開始六個月前擬定它的範圍，請問衛福部日前所提的明年健保總額高推估與低推估值有沒有報國發會了？"],["邱部長泰源：我們今天已經送出去了。"],["廖委員偉翔：今天送出去？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果採高推估值的話，準備金可能會低於一個月，這是不是也代表你們可能要啟動調漲費率的討論？請教部長，明年你們會啟動調漲保費嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這部分以我們的推估並不需要調漲保費，第一個是補充保費和基本工資會提升，還有部分負擔的實現，這些都可以挹注到健保來，另外……"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，但是陳時中政委卻說如果是……"],["邱部長泰源：另外還有一個是增加的稅收，以行政院的規劃是有200億會到安全準備基金這邊來，我們算5.5的時候，其實只有少了三十多億，應該很容易可以補過來。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想請教一下，因為陳時中政委說漲保費是待協商的事情，換句話說，好像沒有把這件事情說死，所以您剛剛的意見跟陳時中政委是不是不太一樣，或者是不夠有共識？你們這部分有沒有溝通過？"],["邱部長泰源：我想陳政委是考慮更多的情況，衛福部是負責執行，我們是更加精算……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，所以我們比較擔心結構上是不是會有困難，尤其醫界普遍認為醫療投資不足，恐怕還需要一、兩年採取高推估值，才能夠將國民醫療保健的支出拉到當年度GDP的8%。所以如果明年沒有採高推估值的話，是不是可以像今年一樣擴大檢討，將總額內非醫療相關的移出總額，移到公務預算之中？這就是我剛剛說的延續剛剛鍾委員的質詢。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的建議。"],["廖委員偉翔：請教部長，這部分是不是已經檢討出來了？例如癌症新藥基金今年是50億，明年是不是就確定是當初所講的100億，或是罕病的部分是不是像今年一樣額外在公務預算編20億，或是獎勵提升醫事服務機構智慧化資訊上傳及資料上傳的15億，以及提升保險服務成效計畫的5億？我的意思是，這個部分你們會不會擴大去檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：關於這個部分，感謝行政院在預算編列的時候最後考慮到這幾個重點，也認為這是民眾對醫療品質很需要的，所以編進去，我相信以這樣的精神，我覺得……"],["廖委員偉翔：明年的也會照樣，然後可能擴大檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：明年的預算應該由公務預算編列的部分，我們會繼續爭取，我相信行政院會支持。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個部分真的請部長可能要繼續行動……"],["邱部長泰源：這個會增加整個健保的額度，非常謝謝委員的關心。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。針對這個部分，看部長及署長大概什麼時候會做通盤檢討，到時候提供給本席辦公室一份報告和資料，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。另外，回到今天的草案，部長，今天討論這個法案，我們先討論立專法必要性的問題。憲判字第13號的主文第三點提到：「就個人健康保險資料得由衛生福利部中央健康保險署以資料庫儲存、處理、對外傳輸及對外提供利用之主體、目的、要件、範圍……等重要事項，於全民健康保險法第79條、第80條及其他相關法律中，均欠缺明確規定，於此範圍內，不符憲法第23條法律保留原則之要求，違反憲法第22條保障人民資訊隱私權之意旨。相關機關應自本判決宣示之日起3年內，修正全民健康保險法或其他相關法律，或制定專法明定之」。請教一下部長，為何不是採取修健保法的方式，而是採取設立專法的方式？有關於設立專法，或者在原本法條中設立專章或是僅修正被大法官指出的健保法第七十九條及第八十條，我想要請教一下部長，就採取專法這件事情，你們修法的判定依據及標準是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：從上一任政府期間就針對憲判一直在研議怎麼樣做得最周全，那個時候是用衛生福利整個相關資料，一直討論到我們上任以後，其實這也是衛福部的大工程，也一直在研議，因為這牽涉到人民的權益，怎麼樣又符合憲判的部分，經過多次討論……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，換句話說，就是你們希望更完善地立法，對不對？更完善、詳細地……"],["邱部長泰源：對，後來覺得還是限縮在全民健保資料，因為它有獨特性，所以後來名稱就變成全民健保的資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，憲判字第13號在111年就宣判了，而且揭示3年內應該要修法，但是行政院的版本到上個月中才送到立法院審議，這中間也拖了、延宕了3年，原因是什麼？會不會檢討得太久了？"],["邱部長泰源：其實我個人覺得並沒有延宕，因為很多修法像我們過去很多法也都是研議了很多年，這個我們很小心……"],["廖委員偉翔：可是因為3年的時間快到了，我想要再進一步問，簡單來講，在這個時間點好像才很緊急、很倉卒。再來，行政院版本條文中其實沒有進一步明確揭示實質審核標準及行政透明機制，讓我們看起來僅賦予主管機關極大的裁量，這會淪為形式上合憲，可是實際上是否違反比例原則，導致原始資料擁有者的權益無法受到完整的保護。換句話說，你們行政院版本的草案雖然回應了憲判字第13號相關的要求，但是條文內容的資料利用者的實質監督及問責制度還是讓人感覺相當地薄弱，或者有其他裁量空間過大的嫌疑。此外還有很多的問題，我剛剛走過來的時候也有聽到立法院的同仁在討論這個議題，他們對於這整件事情的擔憂或者不明確還是顯現了立法的倉卒。","本案的核心之一在於保障人民的資訊自主權，針對這類的敏感資料，在本草案中雖然在第十六條到第十九條設有請求停止及例外不許停止，但是沒有對於例外情況進行實質的界定，何謂重大公益及無可替代的學術必要性？在草案條文中模糊的授權也很有可能會讓人民的權益受損。例如疫苗的研究涵蓋的範圍是很廣的，從基礎學術研究、藥廠臨床分析到政府的防疫監測不一而足，所以如果行政機關一律認定疫苗研究就等於重大公益的話，可能導致例外條款過度膨脹，幾乎可以說只要這樣子宣稱都可以包山包海，大家都可以這樣用，就會淪為掩蓋資料庫濫用的法律漏洞。","部長，在這個部分，為何行政院版本針對當事人行使請求停止利用權的程序及審查標準的規範不足？是不是有一些相關的配套措施可以避免當事人處於資訊不對等的劣勢？包含剛剛我注意到也有委員問到這個東西的實例，譬如在請求使用這些資料的時候，是不是所有的人都可以馬上知道自己的資料準備要被使用了，可以趕快去停止被使用？所以這個配套顯然是很不足的，部長，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，也提出非常精闢的建議。有關於你現在列出第十九條的部分，其實它都有做好配套措施，譬如依其他法律，主管機關及保險人有提供之義務，這個也不是霸王條款，而是有時候真的是國家的需要，這個部分在第十條……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛講的那個狀況就不會很模糊？"],["邱部長泰源：這在第十條就寫得很清楚，第二個跟第三個基本上還算是滿容易定義的，但是這個部分我們還有審查小組，當然它要按照一定的規定，除了審查小組以外，還有諮議會來審查是不是真的合乎第二項……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我再進一步問，依草案第十五條，其申請者若產生產業利益，應該提撥回饋金，但是也沒有明確規範產業利益的認定及比率，這樣會不會導致到時候回饋機制形同虛設或者模糊不清？例如假設是產學合作的時候，如何定義產業利益何時發生？這個部分的界定到底你們會怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分是這樣子，我個人覺得健保署在研議當中有考慮到實際上的情況。譬如我剛剛講過，癌症醫院、癌症病人很需要臨床試驗，因為臨床試驗可以省下他們很多很昂貴的藥物費用，所以你去問癌症醫院的院長，他們都說希望政府爭取更多國外的廠商、藥廠來我們臺灣做臨床試驗，這樣不但對臺灣的學術有幫助，也能夠讓沒有錢的病人可以進入臨床試驗，而且這個研究以後就有可能會有成就，如果結果非常好，除了可以治療更多的病人以外，這個公司就有利益，這其實是三贏的局面，但是這個時候我們也要訂一些回饋的機制……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，我想要講的是，這個機制目前草案看起來好像還很模糊……"],["邱部長泰源：這個在授權辦法，我們會好好地討論，但是現在……"],["廖委員偉翔：討論都還不夠詳細，所以……我擔心的就是這個，現在看起來還是太模糊，所有的東西都還是很模糊，就是我剛剛講的時間……"],["邱部長泰源：我們的條例因為是法案……我們把它布置得完整就好了，可是其實很多可以有授權的辦法來處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以剛剛我有問配套。部長，我進一步問，像健保資料的諮議會，雖然在草案第四條內有依法設置，但它是否僅是諮詢的角色？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實在它之前有一個審查小組，這個都運轉得相當好，而這個審查小組有24個專家委員，會依據不同的申請案調配專家的比例，所以這已經有審查的機制了，然後再送到諮議會，就是如果有比較困難決定的，或者比較需要討論的、有爭議的，那就是送到諮議會討論，不然的話，是不可能讓諮議會一個案、一個案來審，可能就會……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我再進一步問，這個諮詢會議目前規定需要納入不同領域的專家還有人權團體。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是並沒有強制揭露議事紀錄跟決策過程，好像在這上面並沒有要求有怎麼樣的透明機制，其實我在前面有提到，之前本席跟部長有很多的質詢，都跟這有關係，包含疫苗審查等等的問題，我想要請問衛福部是否願意承諾將健保資料諮議會的議事公開，然後決議的結果書面揭露？還有，是否考慮每一年應該舉辦所謂的公開聽證，也接受公民團體來檢視資料使用的狀況跟政策方向？即這些制度可以讓民眾在自己的資料被使用時可以更安心，因為我想現在大部分的爭議都在這裡。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。我想會議紀錄公開應該是沒有問題；另外，它的成果其實在網站裡面都已經把最新計畫還有計畫的……"],["廖委員偉翔：開會的過程有沒有辦法全部都公開透明？署長說可以。"],["邱部長泰源：我想健保……"],["廖委員偉翔：那你答應我們，希望這個部分的配套要這樣做。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：我整段這樣問下來，其實是想要表達一個概念，總結來說，剛剛談到這麼多細節的問題，都是因為這次行政院的草案，基本上概括性授權讓人討論的空間真的很大，有很多地方是需要有細部的討論，我想要請教一下部長，這樣子的草案在立法院有開過公聽會嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：王正旭委員有召開過公聽會。"],["廖委員偉翔：幾次？"],["邱部長泰源：一次。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以在公聽會的部分，立法院只開過一次，對不對？這也誠如剛剛說到的，這樣子的情況，會讓人擔心沒有足夠的社會溝通和廣泛聽取各界的意見，是會產生這樣子的疑慮，包括民眾的疑慮等等，去年有一句政治口號喊得漫天價響，專門攻擊所謂特定陣營的法案，叫做「沒有討論，不是民主」，可是當時那個法案開的公聽會次數比這個還多，所以這樣的法案推行及審議的程序，也沒有足夠的社會溝通，我覺得這樣的情況，就會像我剛剛走過來時聽到的，連立法院的同仁都會有各種的疑慮，部長，所以這部分你們要怎麼完善，包括充分的溝通？"],["邱部長泰源：就委員的質詢，我覺得委員都很了解，也都已經聽到很多很多的民意，對於等一下的討論也會有很大的幫助，我們也希望委員能夠多多討論，把它弄得更周全，創造一個三贏的法。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛就說了，不是到逐條審查就真的叫做周全，可能部長這邊需要更加大力道對社會溝通，讓民眾資料被使用的時候可以安心，以及剛剛說的，如何確保每一個人的資料在被使用之前他是知道的，然後他也可以趕快請求停止。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定讓人民安心，在實務上創造三贏。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員發言。接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 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那麼就拜託部長責成資訊處協同速發部趕快去查一下"},{"start":141.694,"end":168.357,"text":"到底這裡面的資料庫是什麼會不會跟你們之前洩出去的健保資料庫有關聯好不好謝謝好那今天呢我們資料庫先問到這來往下看介師今天有關於貧窮線的檢討雖然不是今天的主題但是我看了一下其實呢目前說有女性在擔任低收跟中低收的有三成是單親媽媽按照目前的算法我就不再贅述這個所謂的可自備所得的中位數的六成為最低生活費"},{"start":169.076,"end":190.112,"text":"那其中就是低收那麼如果是1.5倍的就是中低收其實呢有很多單親媽媽困在什麼譬如說娘家有一棟房子我常常在處理20年前我在屏東縣的時候我就在處理這個事情了那麼現在民團說貧窮人口目前實際可以符合的只有2%實際上要6% 部長你覺得呢我們目前國家的貧窮人口是2%還是6%沒有辦法判斷我們的"},{"start":196.943,"end":215.593,"text":"我跟那個委員報告一下所謂的話貧窮人口佔百分之二的話他是已經經過那一種資產的然後百分之六的話呢是主計處公佈的主計處公佈的我們這個收入的是六趴但是取掉你們有資產能力的就只剩兩趴所以這六趴跟兩趴這樣來的好來部長我看一下你知不知道現在我們國家有多少人在繳稅所得稅你有繳吧"},{"start":226.854,"end":250.172,"text":"你覺得你是在比較多的那一邊還是比較少的那一邊有繳稅的有繳所得稅的比較多還是沒有繳所得稅的比較多你猜猜看應該我是算一般啦過去我不是說你所得高不高啦我說台灣有人不用繳所得稅的有要繳所得稅的你是屬於要繳所得稅的那一邊你覺得你這邊的人比較多還是比較少要繳所得稅的人比較多"},{"start":253.902,"end":264.715,"text":"比較多曾經在108年要繳所得稅的不繳所得稅的超過一半現在大概維持在四成七八左右不繳所得稅的從過去的26.51 94年的26年免繳所得稅的比他這麼高這說明什麼"},{"start":270.39,"end":291.14,"text":"台灣的所得分配 財務分配在惡化所得分配比資產惡化的更快所以為什麼我們查出來所得它是屬於中低收可能低收的有6%但是拿掉資產之後只剩2%我們台灣的所得分配的惡化程度比資產分布的惡化程度更快"},{"start":292,"end":314.29,"text":"那請問你今天我要維持生活我是靠我的資產而生活還是靠我的所得而生活所得是靠所得嘛所以我才說如果按照目前這個規定算出來目前如果要走主計總數的我們的中低收跟低收的標準的遠高於目前我們核定的標準人數啦就是因為你們把資產算進去之後我們就排除了"},{"start":315.031,"end":333.219,"text":"但是就像我說的很多的單親媽媽他沒有辦法靠娘家的移動房子的遺產繼承權他來養孩子啊所以我們的貧窮線造成我們的社會福利的給予啊就有問題往下看所以到底要先推估貧窮人口的比例還先畫定貧窮線先有蛋還是先有雞你們要先推估我們多少貧窮人口再來畫這條貧窮線還是先畫出貧窮線自然貧窮人口的比例又出來是先有蛋還是先有雞"},{"start":343.902,"end":356.368,"text":"很難回答對不對按照我們公共機關要依法兩個都要考量說得很好但是目前我們法律的規定寫在條文裡面的你先必須劃出貧窮線的定義然後呢再推出貧窮線的人口但是當你發現這已經跟現實脫離很遠的時候你要不要定期的檢討要不要定期檢討會不會要重新檢討你貧窮線的定義為什麼我們貧窮定義是用什麼是用可自備所得的六成作為"},{"start":374.217,"end":394.045,"text":"貧窮線的標準這個有沒有道理有沒有道理寫在法律裡面可不可以改部長可不可以改我們貧窮線的定義可不可以討論可不可以檢討當然可以嘛我們很多社會福利的包括我們現在的調整都有一個根據我們的通膨的指數每四年檢討一次有沒有"},{"start":395.319,"end":411.174,"text":"有沒有 有嘛 對不對所以未來我請你為何不趕快檢討我們貧窮縣的法定定義它的機制要不要訂入一個定期檢討譬如說每四年還是每多少年我們檢討一次每四年檢討一次或者說脫貨膨脹超過4%的時候我們就檢討一次不要讓這個貧窮縣變成造成我們真的貧窮人口陷於絕境部長可以嗎"},{"start":421.367,"end":442.688,"text":"往這方面來修法好不好我們立法院我們也會寫出我們的版本但是我們認為過去以來我長期在地方政府遇到的這些想要救救不了的人就是定在我們的貧窮性的定義數十年來如一日啊從我在地方縣政府20年前當副縣長那個一倍1.5倍到現在還是一倍1.5倍資產調查排除哪些限制有做些調整"},{"start":443.729,"end":469.557,"text":"像現在我們要求什麼 要把資產從500萬提高到700萬 類似這樣的問題好 趕快我現在問比較重要的問題 更重要的問題啦 來個別醫院總額制的薪資隱憂 有人提到遇到了總額制在加拿大 就會遇到手術延期那我們國內也會產生這個情況那最近有提到說 會不會排擠兒科病人因為譬如說 因為分科嘛 我醫院總額了我可能就拿兒科開刀 限制悶診人數轉給其他的成人兒科別醫院的經營者會不會這樣做"},{"start":473.832,"end":495.974,"text":"醫院總和制會不會這樣做我們這個有一些剛性需求我們要保護的是的 所以要趕快的會不會造成非緊急手術被延後或者排擠到類似像比較冷門的科 額科的門診的這些解決方案有沒有開始在實施考量如果這樣的個別總和可以讓我們的分級醫療做得更好我支持那他們可以更有時間來開刀"},{"start":497.535,"end":522.421,"text":"是這樣子好那你們要把這些短過渡時期的這些這些泳射這些負面現象要趕快盤點出來好不好好的往下站好那我們來看一下上游政策下游對策你醫院的個別總和制之後你看我們怎樣中小型醫院跟診所他就等一下他少收住院病患也少收門診大家就跑到大醫院會不會這樣子因為大醫院不能拒收嘛所以台灣台中籠統就變成被擠爆嘛是不是這樣子"},{"start":523.396,"end":540.793,"text":"所以這個過渡時期的現象還發生在哪裡還往那看發生在我之前也在那天在財政委員會跟你問過了會這樣急診爆量可能會被斷頭醫院會被斷頭現場醫護呢待遇提升慢但是呢負荷量增加很快馬上產生離職離職之後就惡性循環部長上週我不是問過你這個問題"},{"start":543.464,"end":569.524,"text":"是不是有問過這個問題是所以我們在遇到一個要往理想制度過渡的過程當中會遇到哪些過渡的現象我們同時要因應解方這個問題你說你打算怎麼解了你上次已經回答過了我就不再細問往下看所以我們來想一下我們來看一下我屏東個別的情況屏東農總希望未來成為準一中是不是這樣他這有宣布嘛院長支不支持屏東農總往準一中去邁進他定在一一八年"},{"start":571.889,"end":584.592,"text":"院長知不知此地方屏東目前沒有醫學中心喔不是每個縣市都有醫學中心那我們很感恩我們有個屏東農總他也立志要成為準醫中您知不知此"},{"start":586.156,"end":605.38,"text":"我想如果屏東農總評估他們當地的醫療需求需要發展成準醫學中心那當然是我們會樂觀其成好 但是上週公布了最賠錢的醫院有沒有包括屏東農總有 屏東農總跟他的農全分院前五名屏東佔了兩名我們有沒有很光榮啊"},{"start":606.807,"end":628.748,"text":"這個是凸顯出一個我們醫療資源在都跟非都分布不均的情況這個不能規則於任何單一個人 單一機關 制度要想辦法去改變我希望我們努力去改變 但是另外一個問題往下看現在是這樣 現在我們的醫院總和智慧造成什麼呢假設我一個家庭 有牢 有小 有幼 有壯"},{"start":630.339,"end":638.756,"text":"主持加計程被要求每年的伙食費只能增加4%所以就分配去了每個成員的伙食費都只能每年增加4%"},{"start":640.151,"end":659.62,"text":"你問問看這個正在長大的他每年需要的伙食會難道只能成長4%嗎這些已經不再長大的還需要成長4%嗎你了解我的意思沒有了解所以在我們的地區的總和字你用個別醫院去算的時候要考慮到每個醫院的發展階段現在屏東農在什麼階段往上看屏東農在幼兒階段"},{"start":661.195,"end":666.78,"text":"如果這整個高平地區的總額固定成長4%你只給屏東農種按照去年的門診量診療量來增加4%他才剛開啊他每一年要成長的幅度是很大的如果只能幹到前一年成長4%你覺得他活著養得活嗎部長你怎麼看"},{"start":681.101,"end":704.607,"text":"剛剛您報的數據是這樣子是他的剛開的醫院遮臼力會比較快比較大所以變成會感覺上看起來比較虧損很多但是他的現金收入是一直是有增加的但是也受到你們區域總額的影響的分配所以你們不會說每個院都齊頭式的分配你們會按照每個醫院的發展狀況給是不是這樣"},{"start":705.647,"end":734.749,"text":"我們署長點頭了嗎你要不要讓署長講一下特別的考量跟委員報告 當然在這個區域的總和下高頻的表現是很好他們的點值是趨近1.1塊錢那當然這個有些醫院它的成長會比較高於這個整體的區域成長那我們會實質上去看看它成長的情形然後後面再做一些適度的調整這樣所以目前我們屏東龍又要這個情況它要做的很多事"},{"start":735.429,"end":760.306,"text":"但是他按照什麼 他是按照去年的同期的量能為基準點如果按照醫院個別總和制 他又不能拒收看的越多 住的越多 虧越多 是不是這樣 這是惡性循環部長可以救嗎 有沒有辦法改 有沒有辦法解決我們再找院長來討論一下 看看他整個是善意的找他來討論 不是找他說為什麼中原幫你講話是不是這樣 OK好南區實施健保個別醫院的總和三年多 屏東龍總去年虧了快1.66億"},{"start":761.857,"end":785.559,"text":"怎麼樣朝準一中怎麼辦為了避免屏東病患如果屏東龍口不能成為準一中跑到高雄讓高雄的一中更嚴重這不是我們所熱見的所以我們希望部長可以承諾在未來我們推動醫院總和的制度之下考慮到在區域內的不同醫院的不同發展階段的不同定位給予一些不同的一些安排好不好好 那月主再看我趕快下來把他結束掉 往下看"},{"start":785.979,"end":808.106,"text":"好那接下來最後一個問題就是說現在呢我們地方的醫院跟我們公共部門的衛生所以前我在當副縣長的時候我們有33個衛生所我們的護理人員還包括校護我們要做什麼要不要做預防保健是衛生所要不要做宣導當然要有的衛生所有群醫他要做醫療是有的要打預防注射對不對是的醫院是不是也做這些事情是不是醫院也會做這些事情公共部門的衛生所也會做這些事情"},{"start":814.008,"end":830.114,"text":"但是經費從哪裡來 有從國健署來的 從衛福部來的 從機關署來的 從地方署來的 還有從健保署來的請問做這些事情上面都有錢進入到給這些單位去申請但是畢竟健保支出的比例對象跟公務預算支出的是不是要區分部長是不是要區分我總不能都拿健保的錢來做預防保健跟宣導吧"},{"start":837.455,"end":851.075,"text":"比重啦我不是說完全沒有啦所以現在我們健保總額不夠用醫療院所挨挨救啊他說我要做很多事情啊但是你都從健保署錢去挖啊那公務預算要不要出公務預算要出一些啊"},{"start":851.963,"end":880.269,"text":"是不是 署長你同不同意同意講得很大聲 你看這個馬上同意署長當然同意那報告委員其實政府這年來真的是從很多防治預防保健方面的確是付出更多的公務預算對啦 所以我這邊就幫你寫全盲健康保險法它是以醫療服務為主疾病傷害生育事故所以它的健保支出是應該做在這些醫療為主的"},{"start":881.429,"end":907.039,"text":"其他的一些事情像傳染病的防治我上週才問過你一次像COVID-19期間我們有特別預算去預註那現在不是COVID-19已經不是那個法定傳染病的最高級了那我們把它降下來公務預算還支不支持要不要支持醫院做這些傳染這些季節性的好發的我們要不要支持用公務預算幫忙你要說要啊那我說我一定幫你忙啊這樣我才有私利的餘地啊"},{"start":909.675,"end":934.714,"text":"這個就是我們要依據健保法啦或實際上當相關的法規來制定當然我們希望說相當公衛啦或者不在原來不在健保法裡面的的確是要用公務醫生很好最後一句話結論就來了最後一個結論所以全面檢討全民健康保險基金中預防保健及傳染病防治相關的幾副不符合健康保險法幾副的項目改為公務預認書可不可以"},{"start":936.022,"end":948.014,"text":"應該要朝著這個方向來那這兩個標準我就不再重念了可不可以這兩個報告給本席謝謝也謝謝主席的榮騰謝謝兩位謝謝宗嘉賓委員發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":724,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時1分）好，謝謝主席。主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也請統計處李處長。"],["主席：統計處李處長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。今天還有個人資料保護管理委員會事務組組長，直接請他過來。","很快我們馬上來看今天最新最新的，「史上最大！中國40億筆個資不設防全外洩」還有看到臺灣的資料庫，爆料者說幾乎可以建立所有中國公民的行為、經濟和社會資料，其中「tw_db」是臺灣相關的資料庫。部長，有沒有看到這樣的新聞爆料？"],["邱部長泰源：有，今天大家有討論過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：討論過了，你們的結論是什麼？這跟你們之前有一位前主秘涉及洩密有沒有關係？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能要再查證。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們預定多久會查？"],["邱部長泰源：目前檢調還在偵辦中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢調偵辦中，那有關上面今天才爆料的呢？有沒有開始啟動了？有沒有哪個單位在處理了？有沒有去查一查可能是從哪裡出去的？這個資料庫不見得是從衛福部、不見得是從健保資料庫出去的，但是因為前面發生健保資料庫外洩，所以我們也很疑惑現在中國人民的個資外洩，還包含了臺灣的資料庫，是不是要趕快查？部長，要責成哪個單位？你們目前是檢調在查嘛！對不對？你們是不是主動趕快去看看這個資料跟他們所說的臺灣資料庫有沒有關聯？有沒有人可以來處理？"],["邱部長泰源：這檢調應該會調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們自己要趕快去查今天爆料的臺灣資料庫會不會跟你們之前的健保資料庫有關聯？是不是這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：我們是不是請資訊處這邊瞭解？"],["李處長建璋：這個我們可以去協調數發部……"],["邱部長泰源：我們資訊處協同數發部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼就拜託部長責成資訊處協同數發部趕快去查一下，到底這裡面的資料庫是什麼？會不會跟你們之前洩出去的健保資料庫有關聯？好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。今天的資料庫我們先問到這。","再來，是有關於貧窮線的檢討，雖然不是今天的主題，但是我看了一下，目前由女性擔任低收跟中低收家計負責人有三成是單親媽媽，按照目前的算法，我就不再贅述，所謂可支配所得的中位數六成為最低生活費，其中低於的就是低收，如果為1.5倍的就是中低收，其實有很多單親媽媽困在什麼？譬如娘家一棟房子，我常常在處理，20年前我在屏東縣政府時就在處理這個事情了。現在民團說貧窮人口實際符合的只有2%，實際上是6%，部長，你覺得呢？我們目前國家的貧窮人口是2%還是6%？沒有辦法判斷？"],["李處長秋嬿：我跟委員報告一下，所謂貧窮人口占百分之二的話，它是已經經過去掉資產的，然後百分之六的話是主計處公布的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計處公布的，符合這個收入的是6%。"],["李處長秋嬿：對，可是去掉那些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可是去掉那些有資產能力的就只剩2%。"],["李處長秋嬿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這6%跟2%這樣來的。部長，我繼續講，你知不知道現在我們國家有多少人在繳所得稅？你有繳吧？"],["邱部長泰源：當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得你是在比較多的那一邊，還是比較少的那一邊？有繳所得稅的比較多，還是沒有繳所得稅的比較多？你猜猜看。"],["邱部長泰源：應該我是算……一般過去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是說你所得高不高，我說臺灣有人不用繳所得稅的，有要繳所得稅的，你是屬於要繳所得那一邊，你覺得你這邊的人比較多，還是比較少？"],["邱部長泰源：要繳所得稅的人比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：曾經在108年不繳所得稅的超過一半，現在大概維持在四成七、八左右，就是不繳所得稅的。從過去94年免繳所得稅的比例為26.51%，現在拉到這麼高，這說明什麼？臺灣的所得分配、財務分配在惡化，所得分配比資產惡化得更快，所以為什麼我們查出來他的所得是屬於中低收，可能低收的有6%，但是拿掉資產之後只剩2%，我們臺灣的所得分配惡化程度比資產分布的惡化程度更快。請問今天我要維持生活是靠我的資產而生活，還是靠我的所得而生活？"],["邱部長泰源：所得。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是靠所得嘛！所以我才說，如果按照目前這個規定算出來，如果要依主計總處中低收和低收的標準，遠高於目前我們核定的標準，人數啦！就是因為你們把資產算進去之後，我們就排除了，但是就像我說的，很多的單親媽媽沒有辦法靠娘家一棟房子的遺產繼承權來養孩子，所以我們的貧窮線造成社會福利的給予就有問題。","所以到底要先推估貧窮人口的比例，還是先畫定貧窮線？先有蛋，還是先有雞？你們要先推估有多少貧窮人口，再來畫這條貧窮線，還是先畫出貧窮線，貧窮人口的比例自然就出來？是先有蛋，還是先有雞？很難回答，對不對？按照我們公務機關要依法……"],["邱部長泰源：兩個都要考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩個都要考量，說得很好，但是目前我們法律的規定是寫在條文裡面的，你必須先畫出貧窮線的定義，然後再推出貧窮線的人口，但是當你發現這已經跟現實脫離很遠的時候，你要不要定期檢討？會不會重新檢討貧窮線的定義？為什麼我們貧窮線的定義是用可支配所得的六成作為貧窮線的標準？這個有沒有道理？寫在法律裡面可不可以改？部長，可不可以改？我們貧窮線的定義可不可以討論？可不可以檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：當然都可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然可以嘛！我們很多社會福利包括薪資的調整都有根據通膨的指數每4年檢討一次，有沒有？有嘛！對不對？所以未來我請衛福部趕快檢討貧窮線的法定定義及它的機制要不要定一個定期檢討？比如每4年還是每多少年檢討一次，或者通貨膨脹超過4%的時候，我們就檢討一次，不要讓這個貧窮線造成真正的貧窮人口陷於絕境，部長可以嗎？往這方面來修法，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：可以、可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院也會提出我們的版本。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們認為，過去以來我長期在地方政府遇到這些想要救卻救不了的人，就是因為我們貧窮線的定義數十年來如一日，從我在地方縣政府20年前當副縣長當時的1倍、1.5倍，到現在還是1倍、1.5倍，資產調查排除哪些限制有做一些調整，縣政府還要求什麼？要把資產從500萬提高到700萬，類似這樣的問題！","趕快，我現在要問比較重要的問題，也是更重要的問題──個別醫院總額制的新制隱憂。有人提到，總額制在加拿大就遇到手術被延期，我們國內也會產生這個情況。最近有提到會不會排擠兒科病人？譬如因為分科，醫院總額可能就拿兒科開刀，限制門診人數，轉給其他成人科別，醫院的經營者會不會這樣做？醫院總額制會不會這樣做？"],["邱部長泰源：這個有一些剛性需求，我們要保護的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以要趕快，會不會造成非緊急手術被延後或者排擠到類似兒科這種比較冷門門診的解決方案有沒有開始在考量？"],["邱部長泰源：如果這樣的個別總額可以讓我們的分級醫療做得更好……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我支持！"],["邱部長泰源：讓他們可以更有時間開刀……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣子？好，那你們要把過渡時期的這些壅塞及負面現象趕快盤點出來，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看上有政策下有對策的狀況，在實施個別醫院總額制之後，中小型醫院和診所少收住院病患也少收門診，大家就跑到大醫院，會不會這樣子？因為大醫院不能拒收，所以臺中榮總就變成被擠爆，是不是這樣子？像這種過渡時期的現象還發生在哪裡？那天在財政委員會我也問過你，急診爆量、醫院可能會被斷頭，現場醫護待遇提升慢，但是負荷量增加很快，因此馬上產生離職，離職之後就惡性循環。部長，上週我是不是問過你這個問題？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們要往理想制度過渡的過程當中，會遇到哪些過渡的現象，我們同時要有因應的解方。這個問題你打算怎麼解，你上次已經回答過了，所以我就不再細問。我們來看一下屏東個別的情況，屏東榮總希望未來成為準醫中，是不是這樣？它有這樣宣布嘛，請問部長支不支持？屏東榮總往準醫中邁進訂在118年，請問部長支不支持？屏東目前沒有醫學中心，並不是每個縣市都有醫學中心，很感恩我們有個屏東榮總，它也立志要成為準醫中，您支不支持？"],["邱部長泰源：我想如果屏東榮總評估當地的醫療需求需要發展成準醫學中心，我們當然會樂觀其成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是上週公布最賠錢的醫院有沒有包括屏東榮總？有！屏東榮總跟它的龍泉分院，前五名屏東占了兩名，我們有沒有很光榮？這凸顯出醫療資源在都和非都分布不均的情況，這不能歸責於任何單一個人或單一機關，制度要想辦法去改變，我希望我們努力去改變。但是遇到一個問題，現在我們的醫院總額制會造成什麼呢？假設一個家庭有老有小、有幼有壯，主持家計的人被要求每年的伙食費只能增加4%，所以就分配每個成員的伙食費都是每年只能增加4%，你問問看正在長大的，他每年需要的伙食費難道只能成長4%嗎？這些已經不再長大的還需要成長4%嗎？你了解我的意思沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以在我們地區的總額制，你用個別醫院去算的時候，要考慮到每個醫院的發展階段，現在屏東榮總在什麼階段？屏東榮總在幼兒階段，如果整個高屏地區的總額固定成長4%，你只給屏東榮總按照去年的門診量、診療量增加4%，它才剛開啊！它每一年要成長的幅度是很大的，如果只能按照前一年成長4%，你覺得它養得活嗎？部長你怎麼看？"],["邱部長泰源：關於您剛剛提到的數據，剛開的醫院折舊率會比較快、比較大，所以感覺上看起來比較明顯……"],["鍾委員佳濱：虧損很多。"],["邱部長泰源：對，虧損，但是它的現金收入是有增加的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是也受到你們區域總額分配的影響嘛！所以你們不會每個醫院都齊頭式的分配，而是按照每個醫院的發展狀況給，是不是這樣？我看到署長點頭了。"],["邱部長泰源：新的醫院有特別的考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要不要讓署長講一下？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，在區域的總額下，高屏的表現很好，他們的點值是趨近於一點一塊錢，當然有一些醫院的成長會高於整體的區域成長，我們會實質上去看看它成長的情形，然後再做一些適度的調整。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前屏東榮總遇到這個情況，它要做很多事，如果按照醫院個別總額制，以去年同期的量能為基準點，它又不能拒收，看診越多、住院越多就虧越多，是不是這樣？這是惡性循環，部長可以救嗎？有沒有辦法改？有沒有辦法解決？"],["石署長崇良：我們再找院長來討論一下，看看它整個醫院的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是善意的找他來討論，而不是找他來說為什麼鍾委員幫你講話？是不是這樣？"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：南區實施健保個別醫院總額三年多，屏東榮總去年虧了將近1.66億，怎麼樣朝準醫中邁進？怎麼辦？如果屏東榮總不能成為準醫中，屏東病患跑到高雄，讓高雄的醫中情況更嚴重，這不是我們所樂見的，所以我們希望部長可以承諾在未來推動醫院總額的制度之下，考慮到區域內不同醫院不同發展階段的不同定位，給予一些不同的安排好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來最後一個問題是有關現在地方的醫院跟公部門的衛生所，以前我在當副縣長的時候，我們有33個衛生所，我們的護理人員還有包括校護要做什麼？要不要做預防保健？衛生所要不要做宣導？"],["邱部長泰源：當然要啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：有的衛生所有群醫，他要做醫療，有的要打預防注射對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：醫院是不是也做這些事情？醫院也會做這些事情，公部門的衛生所也會做這些事情，但是經費從哪裡來？有從國健署來的、從衛福部來的、從疾管署來的，從地方來的，還有從健保署來的，做這些事情上面都有錢讓這些單位去申請，但畢竟健保支出的比例、對象跟公務預算支出的是不是要區分？部長，是不是要區分？總不能都拿健保的錢來做預防保健跟宣導吧？我講的是比重，我不是說完全沒有啦！現在我們健保總額不夠，所以醫療院所「哀哀叫」，它說它要做很多事情，但是你都從健保署去挖錢，那公務預算要不要出？公務預算要也出一些，是不是？署長你同不同意？"],["石署長崇良：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：講得很大聲，你看這個他馬上同意！"],["邱部長泰源：署長當然同意啊！報告委員，其實政府這一年來，在防治、預防保健方面的確編了更多的公務預算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啦，所以我這邊就幫你寫了，全民健康保險法是以醫療服務為主，包括疾病、傷害、生育事故，所以它的健保支出應該是以這些醫療為主，至於其他事情，像傳染病的防治，我上週才問過你一次，像COVID-19期間我們有特別預算去挹注，現在COVID-19已經不是法定傳染病的最高級了，我們把它降下來，那公務預算還支不支持？要不要支持？醫院做這些季節性好發的疾病防治，我們要不要支持用公務預算幫忙？你應該說要啊！然後我就可以說立法院幫你忙，這樣我才有施力的餘地啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這個就是我們要依據健保法或相關的法規來制定，當然我們希望相關的公衛或是原來不在健保法的規範裡面，的確是要用公務預算支出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！最後一句話結論就來了，所以全面檢討全民健康保險基金中預防保健及傳染病防治相關給付項目，不符合健康保險法給付的項目改以公務預算支付，可不可以？"],["邱部長泰源：應該要朝著這個方向來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這兩個標準我就不再重唸了，可不可以把這兩個報告給本席？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，也謝謝主席的容忍，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員發言。","接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b84459220d038cca2cf1238ba6a1b99ce3116a0c927efe44bf8825aa6fda1f50879ef4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:53:34 - 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泰雅 布農 盧凱 排灣這些我們都不知道的事情國外已經有這些資料所以我覺得今天這個議題所謂的知情同意其實那個層級要拉得很高部長你心裡面要有一些心理建設這樣我們才有往下談的一個所謂的標準所以這次我有提了三個修正案"},{"start":132.134,"end":153.761,"text":"可是我們因為我們這次的練習單位沒有園民會所以我希望以後我的表如果今天沒有辦法審到的話我的條文可以保留讓我們再行協商大概第5條所謂的健保諮詢議會我希望有原住民主代表第7條的部分就是說特定的管理辦法裡面如果是研究原住民"},{"start":154.261,"end":178.678,"text":"民主為目的的應該取得原子民主同意之外呢應該有中央原子民委員會會同本條例的主管機關來訂定第15條也就是說它產生的善意利益呢應該納入原子民主綜合發展基金這樣的一個原則啦那我想先知道說部長你對FPIC所謂的自請同意這個部分你了解多少"},{"start":180.6,"end":208.74,"text":"知情同意的精神無論在哪一個地方都是應該要堅守的原則第一個我們先講到F就是Free我們一直在想我們先講到一個基本的層面就是說這個Free我們常常都是想起來像是免費 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goal就是它是最主要的一個所謂的我們大家認為我只要有諮商就夠了其實"},{"start":347.355,"end":368.41,"text":"不是 其實真正的 你要把它當諮商當作是一個複雜的一個文化的一個process所以你當進入這樣一個領域的時候你才會知道說你到底在諮商什麼你到底要 你要的諮商同意 知情同意是什麼所以每一個族群 甚至新入到16個族的時候可能以後那個表格啊"},{"start":369.17,"end":380.018,"text":"可能都會不太一樣 會有一些些微的差距我希望部長這邊也要有一些概念以後在處理原住民議題的時候就會有一些基本的認識這樣我是給部長這樣建議 可以嗎"},{"start":388.971,"end":404.918,"text":"最後就是我之前跟你講過我們原住民公費生就是有一些就是大概有一兩百個就是大概還沒有考上醫師執照的這些我之前有提過波波醫師的這個部分就是"},{"start":406.699,"end":420.546,"text":"我們會認為國家很重視波波的醫師的這些以後在台灣執業的這些問題可是這些養成計畫的這些醫學生畢業了以後或者是沒有考上執照或者是在訓練當中可是沒有人"},{"start":421.406,"end":443.553,"text":"進一步去關心他們所以我覺得如果現在已經造成比如說我們的急診醫學那一課四大課都四大接控的時候其實這些你曾經被國家訓練的這些醫生你是不是應該定期的比如說每班你是每幾個月一季一季的來跟他們做個座談會看他們在考試的資格取得上面他有遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":444.113,"end":468.343,"text":"然後給予協助 而不是一直看到說你們都是只有在討論波波醫事的問題就是養成計畫這些我們所有各個族群的醫學生畢業的學生呢 也是需要國家的幫忙所以我就說 又再回到那個問題 就是沒有專責機構所以沒有去專人在處理這些問題的時候 這些醫學生畢業的學生呢就會很像就在平壤中的大海 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我們請部長有請邱部長"},{"start":11.607,"end":36.821,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長這個新冠病毒在這幾週內就是說整個大家感覺說新冠病毒這個疫情好像有點升溫那我知道說衛福部針對這一部分你們應該也有做一些評估那確實每一週的這個確診的病例都一直在增加當中那我今天針對就是說我們確診的這個患者有的可能"},{"start":41.563,"end":58.91,"text":"如果求助這個西醫的話可能就會給這個抗病毒的藥那有一些是不適合吃這種抗病毒藥或者是可能也許他就是不適應或者不適合嘛那原本我們在那個這個新冠疫情"},{"start":60.611,"end":73.606,"text":"當時我們就有提供這個清罐一號那我想請教就是說衛福部這邊有沒有針對就是說我們這個疫情升溫然後我們清罐一號是由公費來支付"},{"start":74.693,"end":91.787,"text":"是的 我想當時的情況是因為有特別預算那特別預算就會針對所有防疫的相關的措施作為給他補物資啊 或者是應該給的鼓勵作為 那現在這個部分"},{"start":93.19,"end":102.583,"text":"我也非常同意委員所提的,這個民眾真的有他的需要性,是不是我們就來研議,他的必要性跟經費來研議。"},{"start":110.974,"end":136.311,"text":"其實民眾如果像現在的這個他如果確診之後其實他的症狀有的就是類似感冒可是他可能就是真的確診了那有的他可能吃西藥的話可能會有一些副作用他就求助於中醫那中醫的話其實西醫抗病毒的藥我們有幾副那中醫的這個新冠新冠1號是不是也可以"},{"start":139.193,"end":152.56,"text":"公費這邊來支付因為我認為就是說如果用公費來支付的話其實他的費用其實他的預算應該不會很多那有的有的現在得到這個"},{"start":154.561,"end":175.549,"text":"病毒如果確定之後有的就把它當成一般的那個感冒那有的就真的如果不舒服的話就求助西醫或中醫有的是給這個抗病毒的藥那抗病毒的藥我們現在是這個有公費支付嘛那中藥的部分中醫的部分清冠1號是不是也可以由這個公費這邊來支付我覺得這樣因為"},{"start":177.99,"end":201.222,"text":"有的民眾他就是不適合吃這個這個西藥抗病毒抗病毒的這種西藥所以我希望就是說部長針對這部分你們是不是也要去研議那因為如果說這個每一週這個確診的病例都一直在增加我是希望就是說部長能夠盡速將這一部分既然大家覺得說清冠1號"},{"start":203.064,"end":221.181,"text":"這個對於新冠病毒是有用的那是不是也可以納入我們公費的支付公費的支付當然就是要有預算的來源那我們來看看預算還有沒有這種第一個我們當然請專家來評估是不是要仿照"},{"start":222.817,"end":248.462,"text":"過去在疫情期間這樣的一個處理方式那我們當然要站在人民的需要的立場來來考量嘛那這個新冠藥也得到國際間很多的肯定國人也是也是對這個相當的認同所以在沒有你剛剛講的沒有用達到那個用抗病毒藥這個標準裡面"},{"start":249.262,"end":276.724,"text":"是不是再有它的需要性那這個部分我們會從專業考量跟經費的考量馬上立即來研議我請部長就進述啦因為不要讓這個疫情這樣子再一直燒下去之後然後我們現在又擔心整個醫療量能又不足因為部長我剛剛有看到你回應就是說有委員有特別質詢你有關急診醫師的事情那部長有特別提到就是說我們又要投入42億"},{"start":278.105,"end":306.167,"text":"就是投入這個從5月1號開始5月1號嘛那我想請教就是說如果既然投入這個經費有效的話那當然我們就是要多投入這個經費更多 改善整個工作環境是啊所以就像之前我們一直在講說那個護理人員一直在流失那護理人員不夠那關病床那現在變成說我們的第一線的這個急診醫師這個"},{"start":308.529,"end":327.009,"text":"從年初到現在離職了60幾位那預計到年底可能會有100多位就是從這個急診這邊就離開那如果是這樣子的話真的是非常可怕另外今天又有人跟我說因為急診醫師的不夠所以有的醫院他不收轉診的患者那會這樣子嗎"},{"start":331.141,"end":353.555,"text":"我想區域聯訪是很重要的啦我們第一個當然不希望我們希望各科的醫師都能夠在他的崗位上發揮專業政府也絕對用最大的力量來創造改善更好的一個環境不管是醫護、醫事人員都一樣那當然有這樣的趨勢我們會非常的警惕"},{"start":354.155,"end":357.016,"text":"沒有現在大家是擔心整個醫療崩壞所以真的我希望部長從之前我們講到的這個護理師的這個缺護理師那現在又急診醫師又離開那其實有很多的專科醫師譬如說大家會覺得說兒科醫師也不足"},{"start":374.241,"end":388.939,"text":"那現在看到急診醫師也離開大家會擔心啦大家會擔心所以如果部長照你講的我們投入經費是有用的話那當然我們就是要投入更多把這些人留在原本的工作崗位上那如果"},{"start":389.54,"end":414.279,"text":"如果只是投入經費那沒有改善整個工作環境的話其實我覺得你投入更多的經費是當然當然都要做啊這個要多元化多成當然我們希望他的負擔不要太重所以我們才會一直推展這個分級醫療就好像COVID新冠的話如果你是一般感冒的我們有分嘛有70幾萬水一直發很多的圖片"},{"start":415.1,"end":433.073,"text":"如果你是一般的感冒那當然希望還是到急診診所不要就衝到急診那真的是會造成急診的壓力很大那當然如果你有重症或你是危險的比較具有危險性高的那當然還是到急診也OK啦齁如果只要有分流一定可以"},{"start":434.253,"end":459.785,"text":"做得更好 這個我們在前面三年的防疫期間已經建立一個很好的分流分級部長我想請教就是說你這個我是看新聞就是說你要投入42億那你們預計會有什麼樣的效果應該要有效果你才會想說要投入這個經費下去那你們預計會有什麼樣的效果可以把這個急診醫師留在原本的這個急診室"},{"start":462.146,"end":488.531,"text":"我是希望你聽到你就是說投入經費是有成效的好我想其實也不只急診啦急診科其他科我們都要留住人力啦這是我必須要講的因為各科都很重要那當然集中症所當其衝這個我們要做那我們提供的經費我們健保署會"},{"start":489.611,"end":500.416,"text":"一定會特別的綁他的待遇的提升不是說拖下去給醫院可是有的就直接給醫院醫院不一定會發到所有的醫務的手上這個我們一定監測而且是因為現在5月嘛可能要到6、7月才這個署長講解更委員剛剛提到說這個轉診的問題事實上是不會拒絕轉診不過呢"},{"start":516.998,"end":540.893,"text":"這個早上那個新聞我去特別了解在嘉義地區他們是希望呢這個有要做取酸素的符合適應症的再轉不要是中風就轉這樣會讓那個醫院的那個嘉義長庚的急診會崩壞啦所以其實是大家要有區域聯防各自有必要的才轉診而不是中風就轉因為他主要是做取血酸這樣也會讓這個那個"},{"start":544.075,"end":569.813,"text":"這個核心醫院的這個神經科醫師疲於奔命所以這個其實是需要大家一起合作那至於我們所投入的這個今年會投入42億的急重症它不是只解決那個急診的待遇問題它連那個加護病房啦還有這個一般的急性一般病床的護理費都提升就是希望這個後端的這個收床要能夠暢通才能夠"},{"start":570.473,"end":587.566,"text":"改善這個第一線的急診的環境因為急診擔心的就是沒辦法住院自留當然也有一部分是提升急診的護理人員的這個支付標準還有這個醫師的診察費那這個我們會去監督要落實到人員薪資的調整"},{"start":588.567,"end":604.829,"text":"好那我希望就是說衛福部真的針對這一部分你們要嚴格管控因為很多其實他們會覺得說即使衛福部錢下去了可是不一定到所有的醫護手上這個我們希望說你們要真的確實去做到"},{"start":605.249,"end":608.353,"text":"另外部長我想請教就是說韓國在今年四月份就有針對這個國人非常喜歡到日本購買這個陳藥就是止痛藥"},{"start":622.29,"end":647.69,"text":"那這個韓國他們在四月份就有全面禁止攜帶含有鎮定劑的這個藥品入境那這個東西這個止痛藥也是國人到日本非常喜歡買的非常喜歡購買那當然就是說這個自己用這個沒問題自己使用因為我們有規定數量自己使用沒有問題那現在我們就看到在網路上也有在販賣"},{"start":649.944,"end":675.47,"text":"當然就是說網路上的販賣你看不出來他是在賣這樣子的EVE的這個止痛藥那他就是用這個兔子來做代表那這個熟門熟路的人就知道說他到底在賣什麼東西啦那這個網站在販賣這樣的一個止痛藥也賣了這個10年左右那我想請教部長因為既然我們覺得說這個"},{"start":677.21,"end":698.116,"text":"含有鎮定劑或者是含有這個Codein的這樣的一個藥品是禁止的那自己用沒有問題那如果說在網路上販賣的話因為他如果是用代號的話你根本也抓不到說實在的啦那我不知道說部長你們有沒有針對這一部分你們有沒有什麼樣的因應方式我想現在目前這個藥1V1的確"},{"start":703.977,"end":727.603,"text":"有些民眾是很習慣使用那它的成分當然韓國因為禁止它其中裡面的一個成分所以就禁止帶進去那台灣在它的成分裡面都還不是在管制藥品所以基本上是可以讓它帶進來那至於說是不是網路上各方面這個部分食藥署要不要幫忙回答一下王副"},{"start":728.852,"end":750.906,"text":"跟委員報告那如果說民眾自行攜帶進來的話有相關海關的規定但是自行攜帶自用是可以但是自行攜帶的藥不可以到網路上販售如果拿去網路上販售的話違反藥事法27條的部分那會涉及到處分大概13萬元以上200萬元以下的罰款那另外有可能涉及因為這些藥都沒有在國內申請產業登記所以它也涉及到意圖販賣或販賣這個"},{"start":753.007,"end":780.639,"text":"偽劣禁藥的部分那可以要是法83條的話除以7年以下有期徒刑或者是併科5千萬以下的罰金那另外有關於委員剛所提到這個非法在網路上販售的部分那食藥署這邊會跟衛生局每年都有例行有計畫去巡查這些網站還有這些平台那如果一經查獲的話我們會進行相關的採訪所以你們曾經有查獲這樣的一個在網路上販賣我們認為就是說不可以在網路上販賣的藥品嗎"},{"start":781.98,"end":791.702,"text":"報告委員有這樣的記錄那我們都會以適當的這個藥食法或者要移送或者是以相關以這個非法藥商的方式來處分好那如果類似這樣的一個狀況你們怎麼處理"},{"start":794.088,"end":817.98,"text":"報委員如果說我們查獲到確實他是有販售行為的話第一個他違反鑰匙法27條因為他不是藥商他是個人的方式那另外就看到他賣的藥品如果是非經我國辦理產業登記的話就違反鑰匙法20條或22條這未經許可而輸入這個部分就跟委員報告他是以涉及鑰匙法83條的部分會移送那他最終的話是以這個判處7年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":818.3,"end":836.192,"text":"那部長我今天要跟你講的就是說我們在網路隨時都可以看到在網路上販賣藥品那我們知道說這是不可以的那確實就是有這樣的一個狀況發生嘛那我希望就是說因為如果"},{"start":837.834,"end":853.146,"text":"讓這些藥品隨時可以在網路上購買得到其實我覺得這樣子對我們衛福部來講就已經明文規定就是說不行藥品不可以在網路上販賣那他還是有其他的方式在網路上販賣的話我覺得你們應該要有"},{"start":855.808,"end":868.474,"text":"要有方式來處理這樣的一個網路販賣藥品的這種事實確實就是在網路蝦皮上面就是有在賣嘛所以我希望就是說針對這一部分你們真的要確實積極去處理"},{"start":875.316,"end":895.643,"text":"這個是真的事實就是擺在眼前隨時你在網路上面就可以查得到所以這個另外還是建立民眾能夠身體不舒服還是能夠就對就是說國人真的到日本非常喜歡買成藥這個應該衛福部應該你都知道可能到那個"},{"start":897.304,"end":922.702,"text":"那個超市或者是藥局大量的購買這個止痛藥還是什麼藥品可能都買的非常多那當然我們就是要讓所有的民眾要有一些正確的觀念如果說真的身體不舒服你就是要到醫院或診所去看醫生那而不是只有吃陳藥所以有的陳藥是會上癮的所以我們希望衛福部針對這部分也要給國人有一些正確的一個知識我們來查辦好 謝謝"},{"start":927.306,"end":928.75,"text":"好 謝謝黃秀芳委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時38分）謝謝主席。我們請部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，在這幾週內大家感覺新冠病毒的疫情好像有點升溫，我知道衛福部針對這一部分，你們應該也有做一些評估，確實每一週的確診病例都一直在增加當中，我今天針對確診的患者，有的如果求助西醫，可能就會給抗病毒的藥，而有一些是不適合吃這種抗病毒藥，或者他就是不適應或不適合，原本在新冠疫情當時，我們就有提供清冠一號。我想請教衛福部這邊有沒有針對疫情升溫，然後清冠一號是由公費來支付？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我想當時的情況是因為有特別預算，特別預算就會針對所有防疫相關的措施、作為，給他補物資或者是應該給的鼓勵作為，現在這個部分我也非常同意委員所提的，民眾真的有他的需要性，是不是我們就對於它的必要性跟經費來源來研議？"],["黃委員秀芳：是，其實民眾現在如果確診之後，其實症狀有的就是類似感冒，可是他就是真的確診了，有的人吃西藥的話，可能會有一些副作用，他就求助於中醫，那中醫的話，其實西醫抗病毒的藥我們有給付，那中醫的清冠一號是不是也可以由公費來支付？我認為如果用公費來支付的話，其實它的費用、它的預算應該不會很多。在確定得了這個病毒之後，有的人就把它當成一般的感冒，如果真的不舒服的話，就求助西醫或中醫，有的是給抗病毒的藥，抗病毒的藥我們現在是有公費支付；中藥的部分，中醫的清冠一號是不是也可以由公費來支付？因為有的民眾就是不適合吃抗病毒的這種西藥，所以我希望部長，針對這部分你們是不是也要去研議？如果每一週確診的病例都一直在增加，我希望部長能夠儘速將這一部分……既然大家覺得清冠一號對於新冠病毒是有用的，那是不是也可以納入我們公費的支付？"],["邱部長泰源：公費的支付當然就是要有預算的來源，那我們來看看預算還有沒有這種……第一個，我們當然請專家來評估，是不是要仿照過去在疫情期間這樣的處理方式，我們當然要站在人民需要的立場來考量，清冠一號得到國際間很多的肯定，國人也是對這個相當的認同，所以你剛剛講沒有達到用抗病毒藥這個標準裡面，勢必有它的需要性，那這個部分我們會從專業跟經費來考量，並立即來研議。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，請部長儘速。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們儘速。"],["黃委員秀芳：不要讓這個疫情再一直燒下去，然後我們現在又擔心整個醫療量能會不足。部長，我剛剛有看到你的回應，就是有委員特別質詢你有關急診醫師的事情，部長有特別提到你們又要投入42億。"],["邱部長泰源：從5月1號開始。"],["黃委員秀芳：5月1號嘛！那我想請教，既然投入這個經費有效的話，當然我們就要投入更多經費……"],["邱部長泰源：就是要改善整個工作環境跟提升待遇。"],["黃委員秀芳：是啊！是啊！就像之前我們一直講護理人員一直在流失、護理人員不夠，還關病床，那現在變成我們第一線的急診醫師，從年初到現在已經離職了六十幾位，預計到年底可能會有一百多位從急診這邊離開，如果是這樣子的話，真的是非常可怕。另外，今天又有人跟我說，因為急診醫師不夠，所以有的醫院不收轉診的患者，會這樣子嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想區域聯防是很重要的，第一個，我們希望各科的醫師都能夠在他的崗位上發揮專業，政府也絕對會用最大的力量來創造、改善更好的環境，不管是醫護、醫事人員都一樣，當然有這樣的趨勢我們會非常的警惕……"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有，現在大家是擔心整個醫療崩壞，所以我真的希望部長，從之前我們講到的缺護理師，那現在急診醫師又離開，其實有很多的專科醫師，譬如大家會覺得兒科醫師也不足，那現在看到急診醫師也離開，大家會擔心，所以如果照部長講的投入經費有用的話，我們當然就是要投入更多，把這些人留在原本的工作崗位上。如果只是投入經費，沒有改善整個工作環境的話，其實我覺得你投入更多的經費是……"],["邱部長泰源：當然都要做啊！這個要多元化，當然我們也希望他的負擔不要太重，所以我們才會一直推展分級醫療，就好像COVID新冠的話，如果你是一般感冒的症狀，我們有分嘛！其實疾管署也一直發很多的圖片，如果你是一般的感冒，那當然希望還是到基層診所，不要衝到急診，那真的會造成急診的壓力很大。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：當然如果你有重症或你是危險的，比較具有高危險性的，那當然還是到急診也OK啦！只要有分流，一定可以做得更好，這個我們在前面3年的防疫期間已經建立一個很好的分流機制。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教的是，我看新聞說你要投入42億，那你們預計會有什麼樣的效果？應該要有效果，你才會想說要投入這個經費下去，那你們預計會有什麼樣的效果，可以把急診醫師留在原本的急診室，我是希望聽到投入經費是有成效的。"],["邱部長泰源：其實也不只急診科，其他科我們都要留住人力，這是我必須要講的，因為各科都很重要。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：急重症當然首當其衝，這個我們要做，我們提供的經費，健保署一定會特別把他的待遇提升啦！只是投下去給醫院……"],["黃委員秀芳：可是有的就直接給醫院，醫院不一定會發到所有醫護的手上。"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們一定監測，因為現在5月嘛！錢可能要到6、7月才……這個請署長講解。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，剛剛提到轉診的問題，事實上是不會拒絕轉診，不過早上那個新聞我有去特別了解，在嘉義地區他們是希望有要做取栓術的符合適應症的再轉，不要是中風就轉，這樣會讓嘉義長庚醫院的急診崩壞啦！所以其實是大家要有區域聯防，有必要的才轉診，而不是中風就轉，因為他主要是做取血栓，這樣也會讓核心醫院的神經科醫師疲於奔命，所以這個其實是需要大家一起合作。","至於我們今年會投入42億的急重症，它不是只解決急診的待遇問題，它連加護病房，還有急性一般病床的護理費都提升，就是希望後端的收床要能夠暢通，才能夠改善第一線的急診環境，因為急診擔心的就是沒辦法住院滯留。當然也有一部分是提升急診護理人員的支付標準，還有醫師的診察費，那這個我們會去監督，要落實到人員薪資的調整。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，那我希望衛福部針對這一部分，你們真的要嚴格管控，因為他們會覺得，即使衛福部錢下去了，可是不一定到所有醫護的手上，我們希望你們要真的確實做到。","另外，我想請教部長，韓國在今年4月份有針對國人非常喜歡到日本購買成藥，就是止痛藥……"],["邱部長泰源：EVE。"],["黃委員秀芳：韓國他們在4月份就全面禁止攜帶含有鎮定劑的藥品入境，那這個EVE止痛藥也是國人到日本非常喜歡購買的，當然這個自己用沒問題，因為我們有規定數量，自己使用沒有問題。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：那現在我們就看到在網路上也有在販賣，當然網路上的販賣你看不出來他是在賣EVE的止痛藥，他就是用兔子來做代表，那熟門熟路的人就知道他到底在賣什麼東西，而這個網站販賣這樣的止痛藥也賣了10年左右。那我想請教部長，既然我們覺得含有鎮定劑或者是含有caffeine的藥品是禁止的，那自己用沒有問題，如果在網路上販賣的話，因為他如果是用代號的話，你根本也抓不到，說實在的啦！我不知道部長針對這部分，你們有沒有什麼樣的因應方式？"],["邱部長泰源：我想目前這個EVE的藥，的確有些民眾是很習慣使用的，那它的成分……當然韓國因為禁止它其中的一個成分，所以就禁止帶進去嘛！它的成分在臺灣都還不是管制藥品，所以基本上是可以讓他帶進來，至於是不是網路上各方面，這個部分食藥署要不要幫忙回答一下？"],["王副署長德原：如果民眾自行攜帶進來，海關有相關規定，自行攜帶自用是可以，但自行攜帶藥不可以到網路上販售，如果拿去網路上販售，違反藥事法第二十七條，會涉及到處分大概是3萬元以上200萬元以下的罰鍰。另外，因為這些藥都沒有在國內申請查驗登記，所以涉及到意圖販賣或販賣偽劣禁藥，可以依照藥事法第八十三條，處以七年以下有期徒刑或者併科5,000萬以下罰金。另外，有關委員剛剛所提到非法在網路上販售的部分，食藥署跟衛生局每年都有例行計畫去巡查這些網站還有平臺，如果一經查獲，我們會進行相關的查處。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們曾經查獲我們認為不可以在網路上販賣的藥品嗎？"],["王副署長德原：有這樣的紀錄，我們都會以適當的藥事法移送，或者是以非法藥商的方式來處分。"],["黃委員秀芳：類似這樣的狀況，你們怎麼處理？"],["王副署長德原：如果我們查獲到他確實有販售行為，第一個、他違反藥事法第二十七條，因為他不是藥商，他是以個人的方式。另外就看他賣的藥品，如果非經我國辦理查驗登記，就違反藥事法第二十條或第二十二條未經許可而輸入，這個部分就是剛剛跟委員報告的，會以他涉及藥事法第八十三條移送，最重是判處七年以下有期徒刑。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我今天要跟你講的是，我們隨時都可以看到在網路上販賣藥品，我們知道這是不可以的，但確實就是有這樣的狀況發生。如果讓這些藥品隨時可以在網路上購買得到，對衛福部來講，已經明文規定不行、藥品不可以在網路上販賣，而他還是以其他的方式在網路上販賣，我覺得你們應該要有方式來處理網路販賣藥品的事實。確實就是在網路上，蝦皮就是有在賣，所以我希望針對這部分，你們真的要確實積極去處理。"],["邱部長泰源：我們來查辦。"],["黃委員秀芳：這個事實就擺在眼前，隨時你在網路上就可以查得到。另外就是……"],["邱部長泰源：我們建議民眾身體不舒服，還是能夠就近找醫師來……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，但國人到日本真的非常喜歡買成藥，衛福部應該都知道，到超市或藥局大量購買止痛藥還是什麼藥品，可能買得非常多，當然我們要讓所有的民眾有一些正確的觀念，如果真的身體不舒服，就是要到醫院或診所看醫生，而不是只有吃成藥，因為有的成藥是會上癮的。"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝委員對民眾健康的關心。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望衛福部針對這部分，也要給國人一些正確的知識，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會來查辦。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員發言。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162337","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162337","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b8445922046d709b40c4d2fba6a1b99ce3116a0d09c19d1471da65361765584bb1b6cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:25:58 - 11:37:50","影片長度":"00:11:52","會議時間":"2025-06-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。\n二、委員林月琴等21人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。\n【詢答及審查】\n【第二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【6月9日及11日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-09","start_time":"2025-06-09T11:25:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-09T11:37:50+08:00","duration":712,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.19096875,"end":3.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.96284375,"end":5.2790937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.39721875,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.30346875,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.497218750000002,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.02159375000001,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.41284375000001,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.01846875000001,"end":107.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.09846875000001,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.37659375000001,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.66971875000002,"end":156.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.12909375,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.80659375000002,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.18096875,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.73721875,"end":206.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.16659375,"end":235.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.26409375000003,"end":242.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.94659375,"end":252.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.02096875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.34034375000005,"end":288.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.40784375000004,"end":288.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.41596875,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.51846875,"end":333.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.71721875000003,"end":356.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.88659375000003,"end":359.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.19409375000004,"end":399.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.88409375000003,"end":406.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.70159375000003,"end":409.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.16096875000005,"end":414.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.51471875000004,"end":415.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.78034375000004,"end":460.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.97096875000005,"end":438.35909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.99971875000006,"end":443.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.93784375,"end":463.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.05971875,"end":493.16909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.48159375000006,"end":501.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.27034375000005,"end":493.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.43784375,"end":507.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.22159375,"end":525.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.09221875,"end":532.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.4709687500001,"end":563.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.16221875,"end":564.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.7022187499999,"end":585.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.94784375,"end":594.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.7734687500001,"end":605.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.2834687500001,"end":599.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.97846875,"end":619.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.88346875,"end":648.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.30096875,"end":652.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.8403437500001,"end":652.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.94159375,"end":652.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.9753437500001,"end":668.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.49596875,"end":674.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.54659375,"end":669.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.7022187500002,"end":673.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.54159375,"end":699.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.34784375,"end":705.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.81971875,"end":704.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.91659375,"end":705.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.65909375,"end":706.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.02159375,"end":711.54846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.6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謝謝主席我們還是請邱部長好 有請邱部長"},{"start":11.331,"end":37.086,"text":"委員好部長好今天我們要來審查健保資料管理條例所以這邊有三個重點來跟部長一起討論一下第一個重點就是其實當初是用衛生福利資料整合的部分來想要做探討所以如何能夠針對法制化相關的衛生福利資料整合部分也希望能夠有機會來稍微討論一下"},{"start":38.567,"end":64.628,"text":"那第二部分就是健保資料管理條例我們有一些修改的建議等一下也跟大家一起來討論是請部長這邊先了解一下那第三個就是改善現行資料可進性的問題有關於這個衛生福利資料的直接法制法的形成其實我們也知道在113年3月份的時候預告是要制定"},{"start":65.428,"end":86.02,"text":"衛生福利資料的一些管理條例那送到這個行政院以後行政院就根據當初憲判制的一些要求來做相關的限縮不過我們也知道其實這麼多好的數據如何能夠讓全民來使用"},{"start":87.3,"end":105.633,"text":"來增進全民的健康福利是非常非常的重要那如果我們今天討論的是有關於這個健保的相關資料的話是比較相對可惜的因為我們從之前資科中心的架構裡面就可以發現基本上是有包括基礎資料庫"},{"start":107.074,"end":123.288,"text":"健保署 健康署 機關署 還有社家署很多很多的資料事實上是可以經過統計處的處理以後讓資訊處能夠在法規跟治安相關的這些處理之下能夠讓他做一個很好的統計應用"},{"start":124.489,"end":150.649,"text":"那当然这里面还必须要有一个应用管理的审议会这边是用一个审议会的方式来让这个资料的应用过程当中是可以让民众很安心让这个资料可以发挥最大的作用所以针对这一部分未来如果卫生福利资料整合的过程当中如果能够让主管机关资料的使用者还有资料提供者都更有保障"},{"start":151.721,"end":155.616,"text":"那這邊不知道部長有沒有法制化的時程列入規劃"},{"start":157.231,"end":180.656,"text":"我想謝謝委員因為剛開始光靠衛生福利資料後來經過多次的討論結果還是限縮在健保資料來應用上次的宪判另外有很多的健康的衛生福利相關的資料的確我們都是有一個嚴謹的方式在這個部分後續"},{"start":182.316,"end":209.452,"text":"後續可能還是持續以這樣的方式來先以這樣的方式來管理那如果委員你有什麼建議我想我們都會來改善的更周全好因為我們在經過下午的討論主條討論以後我們會提供一個附帶決議也希望能夠提供相關的法源作為以後討論的基礎好這個是第一個部分第二個部分就是有關於這個條例的一些"},{"start":212.256,"end":233.074,"text":"修法的建議包括說剛剛也討論過蠻多執議會那剛剛也知道之前其實就有審議會這樣的架構所以我們希望在執議跟審議當中可以有一個更好針對於這次大法官認為他必須要有一個獨立審查的機制那這個審議會這樣的"},{"start":236.377,"end":251.288,"text":"名稱或者是它的架構應該更有機會去得到社會的認同這是第一個部分那第二個部分我們也希望在這個審議會的組成裡面要有並有團體的代表那第三個部分就是將來"},{"start":253.229,"end":268.681,"text":"當然會有一個審查小組來做一個相關的審查的流程還有依據SOP來執行那這個部分我們希望外部專家裡面要有醫界的代表來協助讓整個審查更周全"},{"start":269.321,"end":287.729,"text":"那最後就是有關於申請目的外利用的這個資料應該要盡量的來公開那第一部分就是有關於為什麼我們要把這個自議會建議改成為審議會我們也知道其實剛剛有提到我目前的這個執行過程裡面已經有應用管理的審議會所以"},{"start":291.331,"end":308.643,"text":"這個審議會其實就是一個既有可以執行的部分所以如果能夠用審議會這樣的組成跟名稱的話期待就是更能夠符合憲法法庭對獨立監督機制的要求這部分部長不知道認不認同這個可以來討論第一個就是剛剛非常謝謝王委員在剛剛討論"},{"start":318.444,"end":333.154,"text":"提案說明的時候方面有提到或者幫忙解答就是說它是獨立監督機制所以要有這種機制那機制這個部分在衛福部上面當然有一個現在要成立一個個資保護委員會這個部分剛剛"},{"start":338.357,"end":365.117,"text":"那個主管機關也有報告過已經送到出去司法 法治委員會那個的部分那我們這一本身 衛福部本身就會有一個剛剛您提到的那個審查等一下有提到的審查小組那審查小組就有審查的功能那如果有矛盾的話有比較需要討論的話再送到市議會"},{"start":366.107,"end":391.988,"text":"來大家討論所以也是有審議的兩個合起來就有審議的成分在裡面但是就是說是不是會更practical一點因為案子很多不可能執意會一直審是由審查小組然後我們審查小組的委員有24個專家寫者當然也有來自醫界我們會按照他的那個屬性"},{"start":393.289,"end":415.127,"text":"去分配幾位專家去審這個就是審查的如果有疑惑的話就會到諮詢委員會大概這樣的模式請委員參考了解 因為我們也知道其實在邱部長上任之前也在教學醫院"},{"start":416.048,"end":442.371,"text":"醫學中心擔任很多重要職務包括很多IRB的申請案件其實相關的部分在執行的時候我們施行辦法希望能夠把這些什麼情況下需要一般審查什麼情況下可以用檢疫審查的這些量能的方式來調控我想我們會利用下午時間再來討論不過我想大家可以再多考量有關於這個名稱的部分"},{"start":443.092,"end":468.04,"text":"那下一個問題就是有關於病友團體我們目前看到這個院版部分是沒有明定病友團體的代表那這個相對比較可惜因為其實我們是指健康資料就是健保資料所有健保我們關心的群眾都是病友所以我們也很期待能夠把這個病友團體的代表也能夠納進來"},{"start":469.66,"end":495.176,"text":"因為我們知道這個他們就是非常重要的這些關係人那如果能夠把他們納進來的話也更能夠符合大眾的期待那其實現行的健保會委裡面也有病友團體代表這部分也麻煩部長是不是也能夠來加一步考量讓這個病友代表能夠明文進到這個這個我們基本上是支持因為本來就是用人選團體代表來"},{"start":497.117,"end":524.58,"text":"包含那如果要明穩定的話我們也支持好謝謝那下一個問題就是有關於如何能夠讓我們這個結果公開還有審議以後的案件都能夠有機會透過目前的方式讓民眾多了解除了已經有做了研究也把這個成果公開的系統的同時"},{"start":526.441,"end":546.036,"text":"當案件經過了審查或審議或質疑以後他們還沒有執行之前已經得到同意可以執行的這些內容就有計畫來做適當的公開讓民眾也知道說未來有哪一些案子會透過"},{"start":547.177,"end":563.455,"text":"目前可以核准的方式来执行我相信对民众的这种安全感或者是对于他们如何配合会有更好的一个可行性所以我们也期待能够有这个方式来做修订或者是再来补强那这部分部长"},{"start":564.796,"end":585.168,"text":"我想讓民眾安心是政府應該做的責任我們會在這方面把它做得更周全剛剛提的審查小組這個部分我們本來就有議界的代表這沒有問題第二個就是公開這個也一直公開不管是最新的計畫剛剛看到的那個螢幕還有最新的成果都是公開透明"},{"start":585.967,"end":606.342,"text":"好 因為我們目前看到行政院版的第14條的第三項裡面是有相關的這個要求不過針對公開的部分將來在做施行辦法的制定的時候也能夠把這些這個我們可以來修正文字好 再麻煩你再來就是有關於現行資料的可進性的這個部分"},{"start":607.162,"end":626.004,"text":"因為我們知道現在很多在不管是透過已經核准的研究計畫要執行的時候他都很辛苦只在一個很有限的空間裡面去做相關資料統整以後才能夠吸出來做處理"},{"start":627.586,"end":647.782,"text":"那我們也了解這個是不得已的措施因為我們要讓這個資訊能夠在最安全的情形下做後續的處理不過其實我們很多的這個使用者的心聲大家也應該都聽過那其實整體科技跟資訊資通訊的技術發展的非常快"},{"start":648.562,"end":668.323,"text":"所以我們這部條例如果通過的話希望將來在資訊隱私與安全還有資料的可用性的部分呢可不可以有更好的資料使用的可靜性能夠更平衡的做法這個未來也期待我們有一些作為可以做整體的改善"},{"start":670.114,"end":697.7,"text":"這個是應該來一直來精進的怎麼樣評審的做法好 那很期待我們今天下午經過討論以後可以讓整部的這個法案可以順利的去得到大家的同意當然最期待就是透過這個法律的處置以後讓民眾非常安心的知道在促進所有台灣人民的健康的照護的過程當中這些資訊是被非常"},{"start":699.961,"end":709.261,"text":"堅實的去守護大家資訊的安全那我們就下午繼續來討論 謝謝謝謝委員的指教 謝謝好 謝謝王振旭委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時26分）謝謝主席，我們還是請邱部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。今天審查健保資料管理條例草案，我有三個重點要來跟部長一起討論一下：第一個重點是，其實當初是用衛生福利資料整合來做探討，所以如何能夠針對衛生福利資料整合的法制化，也希望有機會能稍微討論一下。第二個就是針對健保資料管理條例草案，我們有一些修改的建議，等一下也跟大家一起來討論，請部長這邊先瞭解一下。第三個就是改善現行資料可近性的問題。","有關衛生福利資料整合法制化的時程，我們知道在113年3月份的時候，預告是要制定衛生福利資料管理條例，送到行政院以後，行政院就根據當初憲判的一些要求來做相關的限縮。不過我們也知道，這麼多好的數據如何能夠讓全民使用，來增進全民的健康福利，是非常重要的，如果我們今天討論的是健保相關資料的話，相對是比較可惜的。因為從之前資科中心的架構裡面就可以發現，基本上是有包括基礎資料庫、健保署、健康署、疾管署還有社家署，很多資料事實上是可以經過統計處的處理以後，再由資訊處加以法規和資安的相關處理，讓它做很好的統計應用。當然，這裡面還必須要有一個應用管理的審議會，是用審議會的方式讓這些資料在應用的過程當中，讓民眾很安心，也讓這個資料可以發揮最大的作用。這個部分未來在衛生福利資料整合過程當中，如何能夠讓主管機關、資料使用者、資料提供者都更有保障？不曉得部長有沒有將其法制化的時程列入規劃？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。因為剛開始公開的時候是衛生福利資料，後來經過多次討論，覺得還是限縮在健保資料，來因應上次的憲判。另外有很多衛生福利的相關資料，我們在這個部分的確都做得很嚴謹，後續可能還是先以這樣的方式來管理，如果委員有什麼建議，我們都可以做更周全的改善。"],["王委員正旭：在下午進行逐條討論以後，我們會提出一個附帶決議，希望能夠提供相關的法源，作為以後討論的基礎。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：以上是第一個部分。第二個部分是有關這個條例的立法建議，包括剛剛也討論過滿多的諮議會，之前其實就有審議會這樣的架構，所以我們希望在「諮議」和「審議」當中可以有一個更好的、針對這次大法官認為必須要有一個獨立審查的機制，「審議會」這樣的名稱或者是它的架構應該更有機會去得到社會的認同，這是第一個部分；第二個部分，我們也希望在審議會的組成裡面，要有病友團體的代表；第三個部分，將來當然會有一個審查小組來做相關審查的流程，還有依據SOP來執行，針對這個部分，我們希望外部專家裡面要有醫界的代表來協助，讓整個審查更周全。最後就是有關於申請目的外利用的資料應該要儘量的公開。","第一個部分就是有關於為什麼我們要把諮議會建議改成為審議會，我們也知道，其實剛剛有提到我們目前的執行過程裡面，已經有應用管理的審議會，這個審議會其實就是一個既有可以執行的部分，所以如果能夠用審議會這樣的組成跟名稱，期待更能夠符合憲法法庭對獨立監督機制的要求，這部分不知道部長認不認同？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可以來討論，第一個，非常謝謝王委員剛剛在提案說明的時候有提到或者幫忙解答，就是它是獨立監督機制，所以要有這種機制，機制這個部分在衛福部上面現在要成立一個個資保護委員會，這個部分剛剛主管機關也有報告過，那個部分已經送到司法及法制委員會，我們衛福部本身就會有一個剛剛您提到的審查小組，審查小組就有審查的功能，如果有矛盾的話，比較有需要討論的話，再送到諮議會讓大家討論，所以兩個合起來，就有審議的成分在裡面，但是是不是會更practical一點？因為案子很多，不可能讓諮議會一直審，而是由審查小組來審，我們審查小組的委員有24個專家學者，當然也有來自醫界，我們會按照它的屬性去分配幾位專家去審，這個就是審查了，如果有疑惑的話，就會到諮詢委員會，大概這樣的模式，請委員參考。"],["王委員正旭：了解。因為我們也知道其實邱部長在上任之前，也在教學醫院醫學中心擔任很多重要職務，包括很多IRB的申請案件，其實相關的部分在執行的時候，施行辦法是希望能夠把什麼情形下是要一般審查，什麼情形下是可以用簡易審查的這些量能的方式來調控，我想我們會利用下午時間再來討論。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：不過我想大家可以再多考量有關於這個名稱的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員正旭：下一個問題就是有關於病友團體，我們目前看到院版的部分是沒有明定病友團體的代表，這個相對比較可惜，因為其實我們是指健保資料，所有的健保，我們關心的群眾都是病友，所以我們也很期待能夠把病友團體的代表納進來，因為我們知道他們就是非常重要的關係人，如果能夠把他們納進來，也更能夠符合大眾的期待，其實現行健保會委員裡面，也有病友團體代表，這部分也麻煩部長，是不是也能夠進一步考量，能夠明文讓病友代表進到審議會……"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們基本上是支持，因為原來就是用人權團體代表來包含，如果要明文規定的話，我們也支持。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。下一個問題是有關於如何能夠讓我們這個結果公開，還有審議以後的案件都能夠有機會透過目前的方式讓民眾多了解。除了已經有做的研究，系統也把成果公開的同時，當案件經過了審查或審議或諮議以後，他們還沒有執行之前，已經得到同意可以執行的這些內容，就有計畫來做適當的公開，讓民眾也知道未來有哪一些案子會透過目前可以核准的方式來執行。我相信對民眾的這種安全感，或者是對於他們如何配合，會有更好的一個可行性，所以我們也期待能夠有這個方式來做修訂，或者是再來補強，這部分部長的看法如何？"],["邱部長泰源：我想讓民眾安心是政府應該做的責任，我們會在這方面把它做得更周全，剛剛提的審查小組這個部分，我們本來就有醫界的代表，這沒問題。第二個就是關於公開，我們一直都公開，不管是最新的計畫，剛剛看到的螢幕內容，還有最新的成果，這些都是公開透明。"],["王委員正旭：好，因為我們目前看到行政院版的第十四條第三項裡面是有相關的要求，不過針對公開的部分，將來在做施行辦法的制定時，也能夠把這些東西納進來。"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個我們可以來修正文字。"],["王委員正旭：好，再麻煩你。再過來就是有關於現行資料可近性的這個部分，因為我們知道現在不管是透過已經核准的研究計畫要執行的時候，他都很辛苦，只在一個很有限的空間裡面去做相關資料的統整以後，才能夠攜出來做處理，我們也了解這是不得已的措施，因為我們為了讓資訊能夠在最安全的情形下做後續的處理，不過其實很多使用者的心聲，大家也應該都聽過，其實整體科技跟資通訊的技術發展得非常快，所以這部條例如果通過的話，希望將來在資訊隱私與安全，還有資料可用性的部分，可不可以有更好、更平衡的作法？未來也期待我們有一些作為可以做整體的改善。"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個是應該一直來精進的，怎麼樣平衡的作法。"],["王委員正旭：好，很期待我們今天下午經過討論以後，可以讓整部法案順利得到大家的同意，當然最期待就是透過這個法律的處置以後，讓民眾非常安心的知道，在促進所有臺灣人民健康照護的過程當中，這些資訊是被非常堅實的的保護，守護大家資訊的安全，我們下午繼續來討論，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員發言。","接下來請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b844592d9548da228bb466bba6a1b99ce3116a0d09c19d1471da65379bf6ad6b7fd95895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:59:49 - 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謝謝主席 是不是請我們這個邱部長有請邱部長"},{"start":15.028,"end":41.789,"text":"今天一個大新聞史上最大中國40億筆各資不設房全外洩然後金劍疑似台灣資料庫的檔案那我想起了這個內政部戶籍資料全外洩連上至總統副總統下至一般的官員老百姓所有的戶籍資料看光光這事發生在台灣也是事實只是不知道到底是誰把他外洩掉"},{"start":43.01,"end":67.427,"text":"那當然我們今天的健保資料的利用跟這個是不相關的但是我的意思是說光是這樣子在政府手上的而且是有資訊保護強度最高的然後就這樣子就被拿走了看光光了還在網路上販賣那我就想到我個人資料其實最常被販賣掉的就是"},{"start":69.528,"end":75.751,"text":"車貸中心 我在裕隆辦過車貸結果我的個資就馬上外洩據我所知裕隆最容易販賣個資不曉得是誰販賣的然後再來就是銀行銀行貸款的就一定會外洩肯定外洩那我今天就想到民國89年到104年也不用外洩我們衛福部當時的這個衛生署"},{"start":99.242,"end":120.209,"text":"委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構賣光碟賣出去把每一個人的個資賣光光也是一樣健保資料庫所以才會有今天這一個憲法法庭的這個判決也才會有今天的立法"},{"start":121.246,"end":144.083,"text":"我們想像不到政府認為把我們的個人的名字出生年月日拿掉了然後就覺得說這種資料就可以賣給學術機關大家都知道賣給學術機關就賣給全台灣了 全世界了那個就好像是在說欸 有一個笑話 部長當你全部裸體 然後被看到的時候你要遮哪裡你裸體的時候 然後被大家看到了你要先遮哪裡 部長"},{"start":151.718,"end":169.019,"text":"蛤 遮哪裡當你全身脫光光然後被人家闖進來看到了你優先要遮哪裡遮臉這個要看當時的狀況大家都知道遮臉啦遮臉啦"},{"start":171.055,"end":198.237,"text":"那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像把你的臉遮起來然後呢就全部都別人就看到也沒關係因為人家不知道你是誰可是不是欸不是欸因為大家都知道譬如說有心人士某一個學者我對某個人好奇我做一個學術研究我知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所"},{"start":199.939,"end":201.8,"text":"然後他看什麼診 勾跡得出來耶不是臉遮住了就看不出來我至少知道我在這個地方 這個地點 這個幾樓我看到一個男生 我也勾跡得出來你遮臉沒有用啦"},{"start":216.168,"end":227.743,"text":"這個是政府曾經做過的錯誤而且未來方法上稍微精進一點但基本上還是有點像只是說我們這個"},{"start":232.367,"end":256.352,"text":"還有一些配套的機制所以現在要來討論這種配套的機制到底可不可以合不合理這樣好不好所以憲法法庭的憲判制第13號的判決第一個大家都覺得說要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用第二個要給當事人請求利用這個停止大家都說不管是同意權或者是退出權這兩點"},{"start":259.631,"end":280.255,"text":"但是呢憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究這樣子是合憲的但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用它是違反我們剛剛講的說法律保留原則那也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲這個有做出了一個限制這樣子"},{"start":285.436,"end":298.232,"text":"那行政院 我們看行政院的版本 因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本那有 月請委員有版本那行政院的版本裡面 我們就看到就是說我們要這樣講好了 就是說"},{"start":304.944,"end":325.066,"text":"雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制收集個資 健保個資依法有據 然後讓當事人事前行使同意然後符合特別重要公義和法律保留原則下也並不是絕對不允許"},{"start":327.228,"end":348.169,"text":"但是他一直要求我們說國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除停止利用或限制利用各自的事後控制權所以我們在看我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情所以就是說當事人可以請求停止利用然後"},{"start":349.57,"end":352.112,"text":"我們不想要被目的外利用然後行政院的版本就透過兩個程序不曉得講架空呢或者是說來實踐憲法法庭對我們這個要利用的要求第一個就是"},{"start":366.363,"end":369.586,"text":"缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期雖然草案就是說你可以請求停止利用但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前要公開目的外利用的規劃"},{"start":386.58,"end":398.609,"text":"然後讓當事人取得退出的這個訊息知道這個訊息也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前他根本連資訊都沒有"},{"start":402.392,"end":417.521,"text":"他可以有退出權但我不會告訴你我要給你利用了所以你根本不知道你也沒有辦法去申請退出所以這種狀況很多人都是你的健保資料可能被利用很久了很久了以後你才知道然後你才要去請求利用的停止"},{"start":421.164,"end":441.586,"text":"那在這種狀況會發生第二個狀況就是你去請求利用停止的時候已經之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響意思是說當你去請求我不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候那你之前被看光的就不算了還是要繼續被看啦"},{"start":443.185,"end":447.167,"text":"但從你請求開始不溯及既往然後只能從你請求開始不再被人家看這樣子所以我們的修正動議就是要求說其實在整部法施行以前我們類似事前同意的這個機制類似那我們需要加一個冷凍期讓我們可以有一個冷凍期我們要一個完整的同意權就是事前就必須要"},{"start":471.758,"end":475.243,"text":"請求讓我們退出 這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎我們支持"},{"start":478.946,"end":490.693,"text":"你可以支持這件事情很重要然後呢我們現在講還要討論如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權停止利用然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前公開目的外利用的規劃和當事人可以推出的訊息應該要能夠滿足最低的程序的保障所以請問部長以現在這種規劃"},{"start":507.964,"end":532.381,"text":"用哪種方法你會告訴人家說未來冷凍期之外我每做一個請求要利用的時候然後人家別人來跟你申請的時候那他們要怎麼樣告訴大家有人要來申請用大家的這個資訊了然後你如果有意見的話趕快去請求退出那你們要用什麼方法"},{"start":533.629,"end":555.194,"text":"我不是講我不是講冷凍期的我是說我們其實目前已經非常的非常的嚴謹那這個如果說我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生醫療的提升所以也必須要有一些善用但是過去多年來不是啦 我在跟你講憲法判制"},{"start":556.814,"end":569.797,"text":"第13號判決憲判是說你要給當事人請求利用我要退出的這一個規定啊所以整部法律很核心就是說可以退出啊除了冷凍期以外他隨時可以請求退出"},{"start":577.988,"end":589.751,"text":"他可以隨時請求退出但是那也要對這部法律有認知啊那他要去哪裡請求你們架設的網頁還是要資本申請那現在架設的網頁會在哪裡或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關這個要研究的政府機關要研究的他每跟你們申請一次要不要克責跟你們申請的人要告訴大家我現在要要去跟健保署申請這個個"},{"start":607.216,"end":614.901,"text":"個人資料利用囉 那讓大家可以看得到 看得到當事人才會說 我想要去停止被利用"},{"start":617.138,"end":633.35,"text":"這個如果申請一年大概有三百案齁如果是不是每一案都要公告出去說不是叫你們 叫你們也可以啦或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以因為否則其實是 平常我都不知道有什麼事情這弟弟與我有何干 你要去理容跟我有什麼關係因為你在理容他也不知道 他什麼都不知道他要去請求說我要退出他什麼都不知道啊"},{"start":646.096,"end":666.746,"text":"這是我們這種就有權利意識的人就知道的因為我們有足夠的文化資本所以我們知道我健保的個資會被這樣子利用所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人他根本就什麼都不知道什麼都不知道欸"},{"start":667.666,"end":682.498,"text":"我們怎麼樣想辦法所以我們想辦法要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意你也隨時可以申請退出這樣子喔 OK好那我現在要再談的就是說我們要談霸王條款"},{"start":683.715,"end":693.85,"text":"看起來好像法律保留原則定了法律了然後你有同意權退出權然後但是呢我們這裡面有一個霸王條款第19條就是第19條你們的草案裡面那三款規定的"},{"start":699.878,"end":720.891,"text":"你想要退出都不能退出喔那我們就要解釋你19條的這三款依其他法律主管機關或保險人員提供的義務為維護國家安全為免除人民的生命身體自由或財產上的急迫危險這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出這個叫霸王條款但是我們現在就要討論說這樣才有合理"},{"start":724.873,"end":748.225,"text":"第一個這個目的外利用的審核流語形式人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理有舉出幾個原因第一個你們向你們的目的外利用你們衛福部的機關裡面有可能國健署要要要去申請啊跟你們健保署申請啊目的外利用嘛那你們自己衛福部機關內部申請然後你們衛福部自己機關內部核准然後呢"},{"start":753.027,"end":762.558,"text":"自己核准自己 機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定都是你們自己說了算 自己申請自己核准人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧"},{"start":766.318,"end":783.112,"text":"這個所有的詢問部門都是依法規來人家會認為你們都是你們自己申請跟自己申請自己核准啦特別是你們內部申請自己申請目的外利用的機會還可能要比別人大呢"},{"start":783.868,"end":785.911,"text":"但是如果有腐爛的話你們的把關機制不完全的話他會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障啊整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的這個自主權各自自主權他要有事後控制權"},{"start":802.373,"end":807.638,"text":"這個東西是很重要的但你如果你的把關機制都是你自己球員兼裁判人家會太鬆散人家會認為你這種的敢會贏的雖然你們有健保資料的這個執意會"},{"start":818.407,"end":835.714,"text":"但裡面有規定成員組成所以你們承認組成就是關鍵 要把關嘛要把關人家來講的這個利用學術利用到底合不合理所以組成是誰組成的比例把關的嚴不嚴謹就看你們資議會了你們這個把關的資議會我們也是有"},{"start":843.049,"end":859.994,"text":"有意見的啦我們都這個可以來討論讓他更周全那另外一個就是說以為了維護國家安全或者是要免除人民的生命生理自由財產危險這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔在這種狀況裡面大家會懷疑譬如說啦"},{"start":866.331,"end":881.21,"text":"主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告法制上如果用這樣子國家安全為由然後為了保護人民生命財產安全然後就公告了說你們都不准退出但是呢依照外國的經驗"},{"start":883.052,"end":897.367,"text":"以這個英國為例 他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需在這種狀況裡面他允許例外的限制當事人的時候控制權但是是講當事人 你們的條文是寫人民"},{"start":906.044,"end":908.247,"text":"所以人民你們保護的對象到底是當事人然後把它現在變成人民以人民為由所以你沒有去針對所謂免除的人民的生命這個安全威脅"},{"start":921.306,"end":924.408,"text":"是不是真的存在 這個危險是不是急迫性那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做所以這個也是榮譽腐爛在這種狀況裡面 英國是說你應該要克制正當程序對於特定事態的認定和公告"},{"start":944.741,"end":952.788,"text":"到底有沒有真的是國家安全的疑慮到底有沒有真的是人民生命這個身體自由財產權的威脅真的在你要對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課則的基礎而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民免除人民受到危害"},{"start":968.122,"end":977.534,"text":"這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的這個權利讓當事人的所謂的事後控制權就沒了我的意思是這樣聽得懂嗎不是你說一句這個基於什麼你們全部都不可以退出"},{"start":986.789,"end":988.991,"text":"要是不是要設計一個把關的機制用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護真的是人民的生命財產權身體的安全受到威脅這個就是很重要的"},{"start":1003.484,"end":1014.716,"text":"那最核心有一個就是說第三個就是說用其他法律請求機關提供然後作為限制你不能退出大家都沒有退出權的這個依據在這裡喔這個規定學者認為說混淆了請求和義務權限的分別倘若說"},{"start":1025.507,"end":1042.7,"text":"因為其他法律說可以依照其他法律然後就要來請求了其他法律到底是什麼法律其他法律你定的有清楚嗎你其他的法律依據的這個法律當初立法的時候有界定了你這個法律要"},{"start":1043.44,"end":1072.74,"text":"利用的目的限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面克責於我們健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務而賦予這個他這個請求的機關或第三人強制收集我們健保資料的權限然後則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎那這樣講還有道理"},{"start":1073.48,"end":1088.255,"text":"你的法律有規定你這個為什麼必須要這樣做為什麼我們人民都有義務為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了才能夠到我們這裡來請求"},{"start":1092.179,"end":1113.211,"text":"你不可以你的法律什麼都不講你就要請求如果你們這種法律譬如說癌症防治法舉你們自己裡面的癌症防治法就好了你們癌症防治法裡面規定國家應提供充分資料致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究"},{"start":1114.572,"end":1123.861,"text":"與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作好 講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供個人都沒有退出權喔"},{"start":1125.011,"end":1148.267,"text":"沒有耶你這麼空泛沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段然後一般的學術上就是說我用癌症防治法當這個民使金牌霸王條款然後請求你們全部都要提供大家都不能退出然後空泛的用我為了要建立癌症資料庫作為這個當事人適合控制權來剝奪掉的最好的理由"},{"start":1155.652,"end":1180.271,"text":"所以這樣整個手段工具整個健行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他這樣子是不行的所以在你們的行政院版本的草案裡面以籠統的依其他法律請求機關提供的其他法律用其他法律任何一部法律都可以"},{"start":1181.621,"end":1198.693,"text":"那這會大開任意的限制當事人退出權的方便之門所以我過去在立法上我們這些立委在對於這個提供義務和收集權限上你在操作上你必須細緻然後你要收集的法制程序要完備"},{"start":1205.458,"end":1218.824,"text":"要去正本清源在他們的其他法律裡面要規範清楚而不是便宜形式的 我就要請求了就請求健保署全部提供"},{"start":1220.322,"end":1226.645,"text":"然後這樣子就規避掉了法律保留原則的拘束也剝奪掉了這個當事人的這個同意權這個憲判裡面這兩個核心就以其他法律這麼籠統和空泛就全部都剝奪掉了所以這幾個字就免除了所有的這個"},{"start":1240.851,"end":1252.825,"text":"這個就等於是罷網條款當中的罪罷網啦這不會贏的這不會贏的所以其他法律其他法律講的是什麼我們要界定清楚所以啊我們這個在第10條有清楚的在"},{"start":1258.151,"end":1265.377,"text":"來係數來規定沒有啦我們現在建議就是說要限縮啦要限縮在第10條第一項規定的才可以啦這是我們現在討論我們認為可能比較限縮嚴謹一點的啦你不可以用其他法律四個字就要來全部請求走了不行啦我們用第10條那我們有修正版本來"},{"start":1284.372,"end":1312.93,"text":"要限縮不可以照你們行政院的版本最後一個就是說以重大公共的利益的為名你們現在是說只有學術研究案機關研究可以來申請資料可是你們硬是在後面又講說如果這個有產生商業利益者要提撥一定比例回饋金納入全民健保的基金所以你們到底是要要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要"},{"start":1314.775,"end":1340.094,"text":"你們明的是說只允許學術做研究機關做研究暗的是說不小心有商業利潤的產出要交回課金到底是怎樣因為大家都知道醫藥界都一樣啦全世界都一樣產業界常以包裝產學合作在內的各種商業導向的研究課題"},{"start":1341.575,"end":1365.82,"text":"包裝成特別重要的公益性的學術研究啦事實上學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上也免除不了要商業利用啊如果說你不要在這裡扭扭捏捏在這裡犧牲我沒有要商業利用喔啊你裡面這麼多你如果商業利用就要多錢"},{"start":1367.15,"end":1394.31,"text":"不如你是不是要考慮你的商業利用要更嚴謹的把關要設定的資格要更嚴謹不能腐爛然後納管好好的納管既然你們都其實有一個繳納回饋金的機制顯然你們是允許他再利用的為什麼不光明正大的把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障"},{"start":1395.211,"end":1407.603,"text":"對不對你讓我們資訊自主的保障的措施規範的更嚴謹那他的公共重要的公益性把關的更嚴謹大方的接受人民來檢驗不要遮遮掩掩然後放鬆了因為一般學術研究半個金三半個金寬然後讓他通過"},{"start":1418.294,"end":1442.521,"text":"然後再偷偷拿去商業利用然後反而不利於我們人民的權利的保障也不利於這有沒有腐爛的在使用我們這個個資健保資料庫的這個有沒有腐爛不利於把關嘛那事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的這個健全發展所以在這種狀況裡面啊"},{"start":1445.933,"end":1465.679,"text":"包委員我簡單回報一下因為這個在所有的研究裡面其實臨床試驗也是一種研究而你去看那個各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢就是說癌症的病人錢需要臨床試驗其實能夠幫這跟我講的有什麼相關那臨床試驗裡面後續就有產生可能會有產生傷害的"},{"start":1471.121,"end":1474.102,"text":"所以我就叫你說納管啊我是在講納管啊你今天明的是不允許啊你明的是不允許 暗的是允許他允許他暗的你明的是寬寬的寬鬆的把關學術研究然後你就允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去商業利用那為什麼不讓這些廠商"},{"start":1498.049,"end":1524.52,"text":"嚴謹的商業利用然後嚴格的把關讓人民有這個退出權更資訊權然後你對他的學術研究讓他更嚴謹這個我們贊成可以來說清楚沒關係那我再來再次問你你們現在最這個觸及率最大的APP是健保快移通嘛對不對因為疫情的使用那我們來講退出權你們有沒有可能在那個健保快移通的APP上面建置一個退出權的機制這樣比較方便"},{"start":1527.999,"end":1556.228,"text":"這個聽聽健保署的跟委員報告因為我們的健保的APP是綁人那所以這個剛剛委員的方向是可以研議但是那個代理的部分可能因為我們現在那個APP未成年的APP是可以代理由他的那個監護人來代理查詢所以那個代理的部分是不是也從APP就可以使用還是需要所以原則上你們是同意的可以朝這個方向好 謝謝"},{"start":1558.457,"end":1559.483,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時59分）謝謝主席，是不是請邱部長？"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。今天有一個大新聞，史上最大中國40億筆個資不設防全外洩，然後驚見疑似臺灣資料庫的檔案，讓我想起了內政部戶籍資料全外洩，上至總統、副總統，下至一般的官員、老百姓，所有的戶籍資料看光光，這事發生在臺灣也是事實，只是不知道到底是誰把它外洩的。當然我們今天的健保資料利用跟這個是不相關的，但是我的意思是，光是這樣在政府手上的，而且是資訊保護強度最高的，就這樣被拿走了、看光光了，還在網路上販賣。我就想到我的個人資料其實最常被賣掉的就是車貸中心，我在裕隆辦過車貸，結果我的個資馬上就外洩，據我所知，裕隆最容易販賣個資，不曉得是誰販賣的，然後再來就是銀行，銀行貸款一定會外洩、肯定外洩。我今天就想到民國89年到104年，也不用外洩，衛福部當時是衛生署，委託國衛院用光碟copy的方式賣給學術機構，把每一個人的個資賣光光，健保資料庫也是一樣，所以才會有今天憲法法庭的這個判決，也才會有今天的立法。我們想像不到政府認為把我們個人的名字、出生年月日拿掉了，然後就覺得這種資料可以賣給學術機關，大家都知道，賣給學術機關就等於賣給全臺灣、全世界了。部長，有一個笑話說，當你全部裸體然後被看到的時候，你要先遮哪裡？當你全身脫光光，然後被人家闖進來看到了，你優先要遮哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：這個要看當時的狀況。"],["林委員淑芬：大家都知道，遮臉啦！那跟你們這個去辨識化有沒有很像？欸！把你的臉遮起來，然後全部都被別人看到也沒關係，因為人家不知道你是誰。可是不是這樣，因為大家都知道，比如有心人士，某一個學者對某個人好奇，他做一個學術研究，知道這個人在幾年幾月幾日到永和哪一個診所看什麼診，勾稽得出來欸！不是臉遮住了就看不出來，我至少知道在這個地點幾樓看到一個男生，我也勾稽得出來，遮臉沒有用啦！這是政府曾經犯過的錯誤，而且未來方法上稍微精進一點。但基本上還是有一點像，只是我們還有一些配套的機制，所以現在要討論這種配套機制到底可不可以、合不合理、這樣好不好。憲法法庭憲判字第13號的判決，第一、大家都覺得要有法律保留原則才可以拿出去利用；第二、要給當事人請求停止利用的權利，大家都說不管是同意權或是退出權。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員淑芬：但是憲法法庭雖然例外允許利用假名化的特種個人資料進行學術的研究，認為這樣是合憲的，但是也強制要求民眾不得退出健保資料庫的目的外利用，它是違反我們剛剛講的法律保留原則，也對民眾的資訊隱私權的違憲做出了限制。我們看行政院的版本，因為幾乎都沒有立委的版本，林月琴委員有版本，在行政院的版本裡面，我應該這樣講，雖然現在憲法法庭判決強制蒐集健保個資，依法有據，讓當事人事前行使同意，然後在符合特別重要公益和法律保留原則下，也並不是絕對不允許。但是它一直要求我們，國家應該要保障個人在事後請求刪除、停止利用或限制利用個資的事後控制權。所以，我今天要講的就是到底有沒有完整的事後控制權這一件事情，當事人可以請求停止利用，不想要被目的外利用，行政院的版本就透過兩個程序，不曉得是架空或者是實踐憲法法庭對要利用的要求？第一就是缺乏行使退出權的冷凍期，雖然草案說，你可以請求停止利用，但是你們沒有明確的要求機關應該在規劃目的外利用之前，要公開目的外利用的規劃，讓當事人取得、知道退出的訊息，也沒有提供當事人對健保資料的一般性退出管道，以至於當事人不僅在得退出的公告前，根本連資訊都沒有，他可以有退出權，但我不會告訴你，我要利用了，所以你根本不知道，你也沒有辦法去申請退出。","在這種狀況下，很多人的健保資料可能都被利用很久了，很久以後你才知道，然後你才要去請求利用的停止。這樣會發生第二個狀況，就是你去請求利用停止的時候，之前提供出去的資料不受停止利用請求的影響，意思是當你去請求不要被人家看光我的健保資料的時候，之前被看光的就不算，還是要繼續被看，從你請求開始不溯及既往，只能從你請求開始，不再被人家看。所以我們的修正動議就是要求，其實在整部法施行以前，我們類似事前同意的機制須要加一個冷凍期，我們要一個完整的同意權，就是事前就必須要請求讓我們退出，這個冷凍期你可以支持嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們支持，在逐條的時候，我們再遵照委員的……"],["林委員淑芬：好，這件事情很重要。我們現在還要討論的是如何以最低的程序保障這個刪除權、停止利用，然後你們的版本是規劃目的外利用前，公開目的外利用的規劃，和當事人得以退出的訊息，應該要能夠滿足最低的程序保障。所以，請問部長，以現在這種規劃，你會用哪種方法告訴人家說，未來冷凍期之外，別人每次來跟你申請要利用的時候，你們要怎麼樣告訴大家，有人要申請用大家的資訊了，如果有意見的話，趕快去請求退出？你們要用什麼方法？我不是講冷凍期的，我是說平時的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們目前其實已經非常非常嚴謹了，我們也是考慮到為了公共衛生、醫療、醫藥的提升，必須要有一些善用，但是過去多年來，這些人……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，我在跟你講憲判字第13號判決。"],["邱部長泰源：憲判的意思……"],["林委員淑芬：憲判是說你要給當事人請求退出利用的這一個規定，整部法律很合理，就是說……"],["邱部長泰源：可以退出，我們也支持冷凍期。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！除了冷凍期以外，他隨時可以請求退出？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["林委員淑芬：他可以隨時請求退出，那也要對這部法律有認知啊，請問他要去哪裡請求？"],["邱部長泰源：我們可能……會公告，會公告。"],["林委員淑芬：本來是要紙本申請，那你們現在架設的網頁會在哪裡？或者是每一個來跟你們申請學術機關要研究的、政府機關要研究的，每跟你們申請一次，要不要課責，跟你們申請的人要告訴大家，他現在要去跟健保署申請個人資料利用了，讓大家可以看得到，當事人看得到才會說，我想要去停止被利用，這個機制。"],["邱部長泰源：如果申請的，一年大概有300案，是不是每一案都要公告出去，譬如某一個機關……"],["林委員淑芬：不是叫你們，叫你們也可以啦！或者是申請機關告訴大家也可以。"],["邱部長泰源：申請的機關，譬如臺大醫院某個……"],["林委員淑芬：否則很多人其實是這樣，平常我都不知道有什麼事情，與我何干、你們要去利用跟我有什麼關係？因為你們在利用他也不知道，他什麼都不知道，他要怎麼去跟你請求要退出？他什麼都不知道啊！這是我們這種很有權利意識的人才知道的，因為我們有足夠的文化資本，所以我們知道健保的個資會被這樣子利用，所以文化資本高的人當然會說我要去主張我的權利。可是你要想到文化資本沒有這麼高的人，他根本就什麼都不知道，什麼都不知道耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我們怎麼樣想辦法把它做好。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我們想辦法，要讓大家都知道其實這種事情你隨時都要去注意，你也隨時可以申請退出，這樣子喔！OK。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["林委員淑芬：好。那我現在還要再談的是，我們要談霸王條款，看起來好像法律保留原則、定了法律了，然後你有同意權、退出權，但是我們這裡面有一個霸王條款，就是第十九條，你們的草案裡面那三款規定的，你想要退出都不能退出喔！那我們就來檢視你第十九條的這三款，「一、其他法律、主管機關或保險人有提供之義務。二、為維護國家安全。三、為免除人民之生命、身體或財產上之急迫危險。」這三種狀況是一般人想退出都不能退出，這個叫霸王條款。","但是我們現在就要討論這樣合理嗎？第一個，「目的外利用」的審核流於形式，人家為什麼認為你的霸王條款不合理？我舉出幾個原因，首先，「目的外利用」，你們衛福部的機關裡面也有可能，國健署要去申請、跟你們健保署申請啊！目的外利用嘛！那你們衛福部自己機關內部申請，然後衛福部自己機關內部核准，然後呢？自己核准自己，機關是否例外限制當事人事後控制權的決定，都是你們自己說了算，自己申請自己核准，人家會覺得你們很難拒絕吧？"],["邱部長泰源：所有的行政部門還是要依法規來……"],["林委員淑芬：人家會認為都是你們自己跟自己申請，自己核准啦！特別是你們內部……"],["邱部長泰源：這個都有規定。"],["林委員淑芬：你們內部申請，自己申請目的外利用的機會可能還比別人大哩！但是如果浮濫，你們的把關機制不完全的話，它會威脅到當事人事後控制權的保障。整個憲法判決就是說對於當事人的個資自主權，他要有事後控制權，這個東西是很重要的。但如果你的把關機制都是你們自己球員兼裁判、太鬆散，人家會認為你這種的可以嗎？雖然你們有健保資料的諮議會，那裡面有規定成員組成，所以你們成員組成就是關鍵，要把關嘛！要把關，人家講這個學術利用到底合不合理，所以組成是誰、組成的比例、把關得嚴不嚴謹，就看你們諮議會了。而你們這個把關的諮議會，我們也是有意見的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們這個可以來討論，讓它更周全。"],["林委員淑芬：好，另外，你為了維護國家安全，或者是為免除人民之生命、身體或財產上之急迫危險，這個命題之下大家都不允許退出喔！在這種狀況裡面，大家會懷疑，譬如主管機關對特定事態的認定和公告，法制上如果用這樣子的國家安全為由、為了保護人民生命或財產安全，然後就公告說你們都不准退出。但是依照外國的經驗，以英國為例，他在COVID-19期間由主管機關宣告COVID-19相關研究為公務緊急防疫所需，他允許例外地限制當事人的事後控制權，但是是講當事人。你們的條文是寫「人民」，到底你們保護的對象，當事人現在變成人民，以人民為由，所以你沒有針對所欲免除的人民之生命，這個安全威脅是不是真的存在、這個危險是不是具急迫性，那你規定事實認定的正當法律程序要怎麼做？所以這個也是容易浮濫。在這種狀況裡面，英國是說應該要課責以正當程序，對於特定事態的認定和公告，到底是不是真的有國家安全的疑慮？到底是不是真的有人民之生命、身體或財產權的威脅？你對於這種狀態的認定和公告要有正當的程序和課責的基礎，而不是只隨便講一句說為了保障人民、免除人民受到危害，這樣子就剝奪掉了當事人的權利，讓當事人所謂的事後控制權就沒了。"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["林委員淑芬：我的意思，這樣你聽得懂嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：聽懂。"],["林委員淑芬：不是你一句話說這個基於什麼，你們全部都不可以退出。是不是要設計一個把關的機制？用什麼機制去判斷真的是國家安全必須要維護，真的是人民之生命或財產權、身體的安全受到威脅？這個就是很重要的。","而最核心的，第三個就是用其他法律請求機關提供，作為限制你不能退出、大家都沒有退出權的依據。這個規定學者認為混淆了請求和義務權限的分別，倘若因為其他法律，可以依照其他法律，然後就要來請求了，其他法律到底是什麼法律，其他法律你定得清楚嗎？其他法律，依據的這個法律，當初立法的時候有界定了這個法律要利用的目的，限制個人資訊自主的具體手段和內容，而且在目的和手段符合比例原則的狀況裡面，課責於健保署要提供健保資料給他的義務，而賦予請求的機關或第三人強制蒐集我們健保資料的權限，則以該等法律作為限制當事人事後控制權的基礎，這樣講還有道理。你的法律寫得清清楚楚，你的法律有規定這個為什麼必須要這樣做、為什麼人民都有義務，為什麼健保署這個機關全部都要提供，你都在你的法律裡面講清楚了，才能夠到我們這裡來請求，不能說你的法律什麼都沒講你就要請求。","如果你們這種法律，譬如舉你們自己的癌症防治法就好了，癌症防治法裡面規定，國家應提供充分資料，致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究與建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作，講得好像這樣子我們就要全部提供，個人都沒有退出權喔？沒有耶！你們這麼空泛，沒有界定限制個人資訊自主權的具體手段，一般學術上就說，我用癌症防治法當免死金牌、霸王條款，請求你們全部都要提供、大家都不能退出，然後空泛地用我為了要建立癌症資料庫，作為當事人失了控制權、剝奪掉的最好理由。整個手段工具、踐行的程序都沒有就要全部提供給他，這樣子是不行的。","所以在行政院版本的草案裡面，籠統地依其他法律請求機關提供，用「其他法律」，任何一部法律都可以，這會大開任意限制當事人退出權的方便之門。過去在立法上我們這些立委，對於提供義務和蒐集權限，在操作上你必須細緻，然後你蒐集的法制程序要完備，正本清源地在他們的「其他法律」裡面要規範清楚，而不是便宜行事，說自己怎樣怎樣，然後就要請求健保署全部提供，這樣就規避掉法律保留原則的拘束，也剝奪掉當事人的同意權。這個憲判裡面最核心的兩點就以「其他法律」這麼籠統和空泛地全部把它剝奪掉了，所以這幾個字就免除了所有的……等於是霸王條款當中的最霸王啦！這樣不行！所以，「其他法律」講的是什麼？我們要界定清楚！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們在第十條有清楚的敘述和規定。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！我們現在建議要限縮在第十條第一項規定的才可以啦！這是我們現在討論、我們認為可能比較限縮、嚴謹一點的啦！你不可以用「其他法律」4個字就來全部請求走，不行啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們用第十條……"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我們有修正版本，要限縮，不可以照你們行政院的版本。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們再參酌修正版。"],["林委員淑芬：最後一個就是以「特別重要公益目的」為名，你們現在是說只有學術研究和機關研究可以來申請資料，可是你們硬是在後面又講說，「產生產業利益者，應提撥一定比率回饋金，納入全民健康保險基金。」所以你們到底是要讓這個健保資料庫去做商業利用還是不要？你們明的是說，只允許政府機關和學術研究機構等等去做研究，暗的是說：如果不小心有商業利潤產出，要繳回饋金。到底是怎樣？","大家都知道，醫藥界都一樣，而且是全世界都一樣，產業界常將包含產學合作在內的各種商業導向之研究課題，包裝成特別重要的公益性學術研究。事實上，學術研究最終也是要運用在實際的治療上，也免除不了要商業利用。如果你們不要在這裡扭扭捏捏地「假仙」，說我們沒有要讓他們商業利用，可是條文裡面又寫，如果做商業利用要交錢，這樣不如考慮對商業利用做更嚴謹的把關，設定的資格要更嚴謹，不能浮濫，而且要好好地納管。既然你們一個繳納回饋金的機制，顯然你們是允許它再利用的，那為什麼不光明正大地把商業再利用搭配資訊自主保障？對不對？你讓我們資訊自主的保障措施規範得更嚴謹，對它的重要公益性把關得更嚴謹，大方地接受人民檢驗，不要遮遮掩掩而放鬆了！因為是一般學術研究，就很寬鬆地讓它通過，然後再偷偷拿去做商業利用，這樣反而不利於人民權利的保障，也不利於對健保資料庫是否被浮濫使用予以把關，事實上也不見得有利於商業利用的健全發展。所以在這種狀況裡面……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我簡單回報一下，因為在所有的研究裡面，其實臨床試驗也是一種研究，你去看各個癌症中心幾乎都賠錢，癌症病人很需要臨床試驗，這其實能夠幫……"],["林委員淑芬：這跟我講的有什麼相關？"],["邱部長泰源：臨床試驗裡面後續就有……"],["林委員淑芬：這跟我講的有什麼相關？"],["邱部長泰源：後續就可能產生商業的、衍生成後續的……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！所以我就叫你們納管啊！"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們現在提的這個法很周全，等於是……"],["林委員淑芬：我就在講納管啊！你們現在明的是不允許，暗的是允許它啊！"],["邱部長泰源：可是它如果嚴謹……"],["林委員淑芬：允許它暗的！你明的是寬鬆地把關學術研究，然後……"],["邱部長泰源：所有的研究都有可能會造成國家的發展啊！"],["林委員淑芬：你允許寬鬆把關的學術研究再去做商業利用，那為什麼不讓這些廠商嚴謹地做商業利用，然後嚴格地把關，讓人民有這個退出權和資訊權，然後讓它的學術研究更嚴謹？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們贊成可以來說清楚，沒關係。"],["林委員淑芬：那我再問你，你們現在觸及率最大的app是因為疫情而使用的健保快易通，對不對？那我們來講退出權，你們有沒有可能在健保快易通這個app上面建置一個退出權的機制，這樣比較方便？"],["邱部長泰源：這個請健保署來說明。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，因為我們健保的app是綁人……"],["林委員淑芬：對！"],["石署長崇良：所以剛剛委員說的方向是可以研議，但是代理的部分可能……因為我們現在那個app，未成年的app是可以由他的監護人代理查詢，那個代理的部分是不是也從app就可以使用，還是需要書面……"],["林委員淑芬：所以原則上你們是同意建置在裡面？"],["石署長崇良：可以朝這個方向。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b844592f505fe7cbb564cb7ba6a1b99ce3116a0d09c19d1471da6532dc82480404c6b195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:46:45 - 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如果這個條例不能無限上綱那退出權就是假的嘛對不對 那如果說就是你印出來你如果只是這個規定如果你沒有做規範的時候你這個只是這個給憲法法庭交代而已嘛不是為人民負責嘛我們當然是為了人民"},{"start":268.993,"end":288.718,"text":"推這個人民的一個我覺得這個全民健康保險資料管理這個當然你們在做這個推動本意上是對的我沒有說錯但是我們更期待就是說你要把這個事情做得更嚴謹因為這畢竟是包含我們個人的一些隱私個人的隱私那憲判13指出這個"},{"start":289.838,"end":303.765,"text":"全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制那請問你們設立的健保資料執意會這個是衛福部下設嗎 對吧"},{"start":306.169,"end":325.365,"text":"成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導由行政機關直接主控就算有人權代表那現在我看到不知道你的比例是怎麼占你的占比是多少你覺得這樣的監督機制的獨立性在哪裡好 這個署長要不要回應一下"},{"start":326.045,"end":350.643,"text":"跟委員報告 這是兩個層次一個是外部的獨立監制機制現在由國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置它是對所有的個人資料當然包含健保的資料的監理那麼法規本條例所設的執意會是單就健保的資料"},{"start":351.303,"end":379.248,"text":"做目的外使用的時候的一些規範 制定 政策還有一些爭議事件的審議所以它的範圍是不同所以它不是監督單位就對了監督單位還有上級的監督單位上級監督單位是什麼就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會它是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎對 它是全國性的"},{"start":381.261,"end":401.903,"text":"如果是這樣如果有到更高一個階層的話我覺得那是還可以啦因為你如果是你現在以這個你剛剛講的這些這個部分的話你這個等於就是你內部的流程而已嘛你根本也沒有辦法去做這個監督啊是對這些資料使用的妥適性還有相關的規範來做審議"},{"start":404.085,"end":424.824,"text":"好 那我這樣講啦今天我們在做的不管是在管資料還是面對一個這個資料時代的國家權利那當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會預測風險推動研究那他也必須要對人民來負責啦要讓人民知道 也要讓人民能夠選擇"},{"start":426.545,"end":449.844,"text":"因為也要讓他們能拒絕那我認為這部草案的在實質人查前應該要補足所有的退出機制的這個獨立性建立個人這個查詢的一個機制還有要明確限定條例條例外的條件否則這不叫這個資料保護這是資料真用而且還不用經過同意所以我想希望你們能做到這一點可以嗎部長可以嗎"},{"start":452.421,"end":470.572,"text":"我們在進入主條的時候我們會逐一再詳細說明因為我還有看到你們有講到就是說我們憲判13的這個部分我們的退出權還有一個叫做我們這個去識別化這個部分因為去識別化我要這邊講就是"},{"start":473.598,"end":501.178,"text":"我們在之前有研究啦就2019年美國就有做出研究只要結合遊地區域出生年月日與性別就能重識別大概87%的這個美國人這是美國人自己做的這個報告所以我希望等於我要講的意思就是說這個東西它是有可以高度的可以把它復原這個部分我們可能也要考量進去"},{"start":501.858,"end":528.443,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在使用的是假明化我們是把假明化的資料提供在指定的時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析那這個資料本身呢申請者無法吸出跟繼續串聯他只拿出的是統計結果的資料所以不會有衍生這樣重新串聯的我希望你把就是把這些我們國外的一些做法這些數據拿來做參考那我們做起來就會更嚴謹嘛好不好"},{"start":532.403,"end":560.432,"text":"那不然我再請教一個問題就是我們全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員在碰過錢之後不能再碰食物不然就要罰兩億的我看亞洲也看歐洲美洲也沒人這樣罰英國是鼓勵分工美國要求是洗手日本靠職人自律中國是靠電子支付"},{"start":561.593,"end":584.999,"text":"新加坡還有這個還會有這個補助改善的設備那我們台灣全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物的不然罰你兩億的國家我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的我想這個從113年初就開始預告那也徵請大家的意見然後這因為總是要把"},{"start":585.899,"end":609.592,"text":"食品良好衛生往前一步啦所以這樣的整整對你們這一條法律上去讓全世界看到台灣的創意啦這個不用補助也沒有過渡期我們都來自基層我們很清楚在小吃攤啦或者是在攤販的所在處理上面的確有他要比較特別注意的地方所以我們在我們的福島福島期是無限期"},{"start":613.094,"end":628.319,"text":"那你什麼叫五線型那你是不是就不要立這個法啊什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢至少是一個往前走的一個那你不要罰十一二十一"},{"start":629.199,"end":644.719,"text":"這個不一樣我想這個是那個這個所謂兩立一下那個事實安滑我們江志工江志剛署長說過不教而殺是不能啦但寫了殺人的法再說不會殺這個就屬於虛偽嘛他說是安心的署長"},{"start":645.62,"end":662.414,"text":"那麼我這樣看齁現在全台最不安心的就是我們攤商阿他們未來怎麼辦我想想攤商絕對安心齁我們一定是用福島那這個是大家一個努力因為畢竟你摸錢又摸食物總是對啦當然這個東西是我沒有說他不對齁我沒有說他規定這個不對但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量齁我這樣舉例啦齁"},{"start":667.938,"end":685.375,"text":"我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬最高罰50萬超重股市魔力是罰5億販賣第一級毒品是最高是罰3000萬那手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億也就是說販毒的手比小吃攤販的手還髒嗎"},{"start":688.489,"end":705.257,"text":"詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎這不是 這不只是罰則這個設計荒唐啦我覺得你們這個 這個真的是要考量這是由市安法是不是委員容許我請那個王副市長簡單跟大家回報這樣的情況"},{"start":706.357,"end":729.804,"text":"是 跟委員報告 其實食安法這個所謂的六萬到兩億的規定它是在食安法訂定的罰則 但是我們如果攤商違反GHP就是真的他真的手摸了錢 然後又摸了書 真的被查核到事實上依據現在的規定 他首先我們會給予他限期改正對 因為你這個 你這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是你這個條文沒寫清楚你未來是 是誰該罰 是誰來罰 怎麼罰"},{"start":732.365,"end":752.957,"text":"包委這個是地方政府衛生局來罰但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局瞭解這個業者在出犯而且如果他是限期改正不改正就是給他期限他都不修正的話才會進行有裁罰的動作部長時間也到了啦你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨很冠冕堂皇"},{"start":753.897,"end":772.277,"text":"那但是我跟你講生活是很複雜的我們人不是生活在條文裡面而是生活在我們的這個柴米跟油煙裡面好不好請多寫一些這種比較符合人性的好不好我們會解釋清楚然後一直溝通謝謝 薛委員好 謝謝邱委員的好發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時46分）主席好。我們請邱部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。根據2022年憲法法庭做出的憲判字第13號判決，針對健保資料使用明白指出3個違憲問題，第一個是缺乏組織上的監督機制，第二個是缺乏程序上的實質保障，第三個是缺乏當事人資訊自主與退出的明確規定。憲判字第13號的核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保資料的資訊自主權，也就是說人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用，對吧？部長對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，剛剛石署長跟我講話，可以再……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是說憲判字第13號核心精神就是保障人民對自己健保資料的資訊自主權，也就是人民應該可以自己決定要不要讓自己的資料被拿去參與目的外的使用，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我今天以一個曾經看過病、打針、住院使用健保的病人立場，問最簡單、直接的問題，這雖然是保護資料的新法，但這部新法上路之後，我可以做什麼？我的權利在哪裡？我要怎麼知道我的資料被誰用、怎麼用、用了幾次？這個有通知機制嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是有退出權，就是我……"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼退出？"],["邱部長泰源：可以用書面退出，所以這個法通過之後，我們預計有所謂的冷凍期，讓大家要退出的退出，不退出的話，就當成說使用……"],["邱委員鎮軍：退出之後就永久退出？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，過去這些年來我們在使用健保資料是非常嚴謹的，研究者要到一個房間裡面去……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我的意思是他退出之後就永久退出了，是這樣嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然這個我們可以……我們可以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以在之前就要申請嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：目前的設計是這樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是在實施之前可以申請，或者是說實施之後申請，他申請之後就完全退出？"],["邱部長泰源：法律公告以後就有冷凍期，這時候我們會讓全民來申請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：冷凍期過後，如果要退出呢？"],["邱部長泰源：隨時可以退出。"],["邱委員鎮軍：隨時可以退出？"],["邱部長泰源：嗯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：行文就可以？"],["邱部長泰源：申請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看第十九條發現有立了3個例外，即為了防疫、為了國安，還有依其他法律，這3個條件在草案裡並沒有明確定義，講得很模糊，什麼叫做國安？國安的範圍在哪裡？防疫又是是依照哪一個法律？"],["邱部長泰源：這是例外。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是健康大數據？還是跟美國交換資料？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有衝突到這個，或者是覺得這個算不算維護國家安全，或算不算免除人民生命，這個會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個很籠統啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這個會在諮議會，我們有一個諮議會去討論……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望這個東西要講清楚，這涉及人民的……"],["邱部長泰源：一定不會隨便，如果有模糊、矛盾，一定會到諮議會去討論，諮議會組成是非常完整的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為如果沒有法律條文，沒有細節，也沒有邊界的話，這些例外會變成政府想要用資料的萬用開關，想用就用，但不能你們說了算，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：政府當然有它政策上的需要以及這樣的目的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個條例不能無限上綱，否則退出權就是假的。"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果只是這個規定，而沒有做規範，那只是給憲法法庭交代而已，不是為人民負責。"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然是為了人民的個資權利。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得全民健康保險資料管理，當然你們做這個推動，本意上是對的，我沒有說是錯的，但是我們更期待你們把事情做得更嚴謹，畢竟這包含了個人的隱私。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：憲判字第13號指出全民強制納入的大型健康資料庫，要求設計一個組織上與程序上具獨立性的監督防護機制，請問你們設立的健保資料諮議會，這個是在衛福部下設的，對不對？成員大多是由衛福部內部或學者主導，由行政機關直接主控，就算有人權代表，但不知道你們的占比如何？你覺得這樣的監督機制獨立性在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：這個石署長要不要回應一下？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這是兩個層次，一個是外部的獨立監督機制，現在有國家的個人資料保護委員會的設置，是對所有個人資料，當然包含健保資料的監理；本條例所設的諮議會是單就健保資料做目的外使用時的一些規範、制定政策，還有一些爭議事件的審議，所以它的範圍不同。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以它不是監督單位就對了？"],["石署長崇良：監督單位還有上級監督單位。"],["邱委員鎮軍：上級監督單位是什麼？"],["石署長崇良：就是現在已經有草案的個人資料保護委員會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是個資保護委員會來做處理嗎？"],["石署長崇良：對，它是全國性的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果是這樣，有到更高階層的話，我覺得那就還可以。如果是以你剛剛講的部分，等於是你們內部流程而已，根本也沒辦法做監督。"],["石署長崇良：是對這些資料使用的妥適性，還有相關規範來做審議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講，今天我們做的不管是管資料，還是面對資料時代的國家權力，當國家可以用健保大數據來治理社會、預測風險、推動研究，它也必須要對人民負責，要讓人民知道，讓人民能夠選擇，也要讓他們能拒絕。","我認為這部草案在實質審查前，要補足所有退出機制的獨立性，建立個人查詢機制，還有要明確限定條例外的條件，否則這不叫做資料保護，這是資料徵用，而且還不用經過同意，我希望你們可以做到這點，可以嗎？"],["石署長崇良：進入逐條的時候，我們會逐一再詳細說明。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我還有看到你們有講到憲判字第13號有退出權，還有一個叫做去識別化這部分，去識別化我要在這邊講，之前2019年美國有做出研究，只要結合郵遞區域、出生年月日與性別，就能識別大概87%的美國人，這是美國人自己做的報告，我要講的意思就是說這東西可以高度復原，這部分我們可能也要考量進去。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們現在使用的是假名化，我們是把假名化的資料提供在指定時間跟空間裡面去進行統計分析，這個資料本身申請者無法攜出跟繼續串連，他只能拿出統計結果的資料，不會衍生這樣重新串連的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望你們把國外的一些作法、數據拿來參考，我們做起來就會更嚴謹，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我再請教一個問題，全世界有哪一個文明國家有明文禁止食品從業人員碰過錢之後不能再碰食物，不然就要罰2億的？我看亞洲、歐洲、美洲也沒人這樣罰，英國是鼓勵分工，美國是要求洗手，日本是靠職人自律，中國是靠電子支付，新加坡還會有補助改善的設備，我們臺灣在全世界成為第一個明文規定碰過錢不能再碰食物，不然要罰你2億的國家，我想請問這麼奇怪的想法是誰弄出來的？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想這個是從113年初就開始預告，也徵詢大家的意見，因為總是要把食品良好衛生往前一步，所以這樣的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們這一條法律訂下去，讓全世界看到臺灣的創意，不用補助也沒有過渡期。"],["邱部長泰源：我們都來自基層，我們很清楚小吃攤或者是攤販在處理上的確有他要特別注意的地方，所以我們的輔導期是無限期。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼叫做無限期？那你根本就不要立這個法啊！"],["邱部長泰源：輔導到大家都能夠做好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼叫做大家都能夠做到的時候呢？那你幹嘛立這麼奇怪的法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：這個至少是一個往前走的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼不能實際一點？那就不要罰10億、20億……"],["邱部長泰源：這個不一樣，我想所謂的2億以下，那個是食安法本身……"],["邱委員鎮軍：姜至剛署長曾說過，不教而殺是不仁，但是寫了殺人的法再說不會殺，這就是虛偽嘛！他說是安心的署長，我這樣看，現在全臺最不安心的就是我們的攤商，他們未來怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：我想請攤商絕對安心，我們一定是用輔導的方式，這是大家的一個努力，因為畢竟你摸了錢又摸食物，總是不好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！當然這個東西我沒有說它不對，我沒有說規定這個不對，但是我覺得這個罰則是不是要考量？我這樣舉例啦，我們詐騙老農的血汗錢大概是罰50萬，最高罰50萬，操縱股市牟利是罰5億，販賣第一級毒品最高是罰3,000萬，手碰錢又碰食物就要罰2億，也就是說，小吃攤販的手比販毒的手還髒嗎？詐騙集團的嘴巴比市場攤販的手還沒有問題嗎？這不只是罰則設計荒唐，我覺得你們這個部分真的是要考量，這是對基層的羞辱！"],["邱部長泰源：這是食安法委員，是不是容許我請王副署長簡單跟大家回報這個情況？"],["王副署長德原：跟委員報告，其實食安法所謂的6萬到2億的規定，這是在食安法訂定的罰則，但是如果攤商違反GHP，就是他的手真的摸了錢，然後又摸了食物，真的被查核到，事實上，依據現在的規定，首先我們會給予他限期改正。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個罰則訂下去會造成恐慌的原因是這個條文沒寫清楚，未來是誰該罰？誰來罰？怎麼罰？這個標準很難論定。"],["王副署長德原：報告委員，這個是由地方政府衛生局來罰，但是我們這個部分另外還有裁罰標準，還有裁罰基準可以讓衛生局了解，這個業者是初犯，而且如果他是限期改正而不改正，就是給他期限他都不修正的話，才會有裁罰的動作。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我的時間也到了，你們的法規可以寫得很乾淨、很冠冕堂皇，但是我跟你講，生活是很複雜的，我們人不是生活在條文裡面，而是生活在柴米油鹽裡面，好不好？請多寫一些比較符合人性的規定，好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把它解釋清楚，我們會解釋清楚，會一直溝通，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員的發言。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 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這樣還得了我覺得這以後搞不搞就沒有人要考啦"},{"start":227.692,"end":229.961,"text":"整個都崩盤了嘛所以整個價值觀都變啦"},{"start":232.332,"end":257.698,"text":"這醫生這麼多年都沒薪水、沒什麼提高所以還是要籌多一點錢待遇還是很重要的一位醫生到台北去做醫生、做到老沒有一間房子,要找西人人家在國外是薪水月薪月薪差不多18個月就可以買一個房子"},{"start":260.673,"end":282.978,"text":"四個月也可以買一部車子這是當統計所以部長還有署長你們責任重大好 今天講今天的健保的東西這十幾年來就是偶爾就會出現一個官員用CME拿資料出去了然後被判刑了"},{"start":284.178,"end":295.324,"text":"好像都一直來那你現在的那個內部要拿資料的前線現在到底有沒有加強部長我們有要求健保署一定要去查清楚整個機制要加強請署長回答"},{"start":304.347,"end":320.083,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子當然還在檢調偵查中不過我們在這個事件之後已經重新檢討過在內積的部分去強化包含資料使用權限的限縮還有可取得的這個"},{"start":321.484,"end":339.789,"text":"資料的那個欄位就是最少原則那如果需要到大筆資料還要簽核所以都加強了這個內控的機制所有的使用紀錄都會被留下來就是你只要經過就對對對對另外還導入外機的機制包含這個ISO27001的標準CNS27001的標準還有外機所以我們是強化內機之外也導入外機的機制"},{"start":349.571,"end":366.115,"text":"好那出皮肉都是健保署那國健署都沒問題喔國健署的資料也沒救捏我們這三高我們這什麼癌症病人都害得了所以國健署這邊有沒有洩露出去有沒有出事跟蘇昭偉報告一下這兩件事這個是形式問題這是他自己這是職員那個怕我們這個話齁"},{"start":371.696,"end":378.039,"text":"那是我們本來就很嚴格,要在那個本金裡面,去個別化或是識別化,拿出來今天可以再做這兩件事情啦,那這個我們當然需要去檢討"},{"start":388.749,"end":416.109,"text":"但是今天討論的是因為我們本來就已經在做後來是因為宣判所以我們把他弄得就能夠讓大家安心病人隱私的一個保護跟安全啦這有兩個齁這個法案過了會比較清楚規範說要怎麼贏啊背信給人家拿資料去贏我希望疫情開始的20年我的資料可以贏沒有你的資料可以贏你也不知道"},{"start":417.55,"end":439.35,"text":"說什麼去名字都去掉就用了搞不好你已經被用了一百次了我被用了一千次了論文就有六千篇了嘛對不對所以你這個法通過你也不知道你繼續也不知道你到底有沒有用啊說你可以退出還是不同意我不知道發一個發一個問求你說給天保署說我的資料都沒有用"},{"start":445.86,"end":460.488,"text":"有這個我們社權法規委來處理這個而且會更細膩來看他不能釋出哪些資料那基本上如果去識別化的話像我個人的話我覺得只要識別化對公共衛生對國家的一個醫藥發展提升我覺得應該是"},{"start":461.553,"end":486.308,"text":"沒有啦 我們的資料被用去世白話 名字都遮起來這樣 這樣如果能遮到這樣 那當然安心啦對社會也有貢獻 連捐大體都在捐的大體老師都是這樣捐的嘛所以 我們是可以理解但是一般百姓會不會理解 我不知道好 你這個法通過之後跟另外一件事就是倒賣個資 倒賣資料出去這是兩回事"},{"start":487.849,"end":510.487,"text":"所以倒賣這一塊你們有什麼防患的措施剛剛署長講的以外有加強嗎 還是現在都不可能發生啊從此以後不會發生的對 我們都強化了就是剛剛講的都是在那個事件之後我們重新檢討過強化到目前的話都維持得很好我們一定要強化到絕對不可能再發生"},{"start":512.202,"end":519.428,"text":"今天這個法案拿出來 院辦得出來是要迎合這個憲法法庭的判決那跟我們資料會被盜賣這是兩回事所以這個要怎麼加強"},{"start":526.704,"end":554.62,"text":"你要回答?來,你來回答我來,我問李處長資料被...大量資料被下載所以我們已經從去年開始就進行一個管理每個月每個單位,它只要有哪一個人在不對的時間、不對的地點、不對的量去下載資料,我們全部都有掌握然後都會給各個主管所以這個在USB跟硬碟現在都有這些管理跟委員報告好,OK"},{"start":555.595,"end":577.513,"text":"那我們健保這樣說30年來我們的就醫資料有680幾億筆有這麼多那怎麼用你們現在有人家的apply來申請你們IRB通過之外你們這邊有一個委員會在審查在核准嗎我們有專案小組有專案小組這裡面有24個委員在做審查"},{"start":582.798,"end":607.499,"text":"那現在的設計如果經過審查以後當然沒有爭議就就看看後續怎麼樣我們會再來演繹但是如果有困難矛盾的話我們會有執議會來處理所以這個審查委員會上面還有一個執議會那這個執議會是這個因為他不可能主案審查那可能會受不了啦不可能啦不可能所以這個委員會先"},{"start":608.655,"end":611.78,"text":"先審查小組,過了就過了,沒有過的再送到執意會有爭議的到執意會"},{"start":619.622,"end":632.197,"text":"好那最後一個問題現在疫苗現在有還有三百多萬劑那現在要你不是支持高麗大家要煮有我自己煮六支我這個如果標準的就兩個童弟我就煮但是我煮到現在我會嚇到的阿博爹你有煮嗎"},{"start":639.167,"end":650.513,"text":"我十月請他煮一支,四月請他煮一支我現在有很多老闆或鄉長、鎮長跟我說要煮嗎?煮了怎麼辦?我說你不煮可能會瘋掉煮會瘋掉嗎?我說也不一定煮疫苗出現事情的規矩但是你不煮疫苗應該是更危險"},{"start":665.305,"end":688.922,"text":"錄影,這樣會中症嘛,中症會跳起來因為我在民間看那些玩家,有的年輕人,有的年輕人在過去這個疫情,做疫苗要有心理不整的有肉膜積水,心肝膜積水,咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕咕嚕"},{"start":694.045,"end":715.664,"text":"我想大家都會說有可能有可能但是他們去秤的那些要害沒有一件過的因為都不會死 但是就都有症狀有的真的 主要病心力不整 真的有所以我在新浪溝這邊碰到一大堆所以我越看越擔心"},{"start":716.405,"end":719.928,"text":"所以你現在叫我打,我還是會去打啦但是我怕會被打掉但是如果有人問我,我真的會保留保證你宣示一下市長可不可以請我們專家跟大家宣導一下打疫苗是不是過去專家的"},{"start":735.469,"end":736.17,"text":"因為我們目前都還是有在針對所有的這個"},{"start":751.802,"end":775.724,"text":"疫苗的接種之後有如果不良反應其實是都可以通報所以我們一直有在蒐集這方面的數據然後在這個食藥署這邊有去做定期的這個統計那另外像委員提到就是說有這種接種之後疑似是因為疫苗造成的其實我們在這個不管在第一層衛生局這邊也都會去做調查然後如果這個真的是可能跟疫苗有關的也都會跟他說有這個救濟的這個管道"},{"start":776.184,"end":798.171,"text":"也就是可以提這個疫苗接種預防接種受害救濟這個部分那我們有一個獨立的這個專家委員會去做審議去判斷這個相關性因為疫苗本身一直在突變突變突變到現在跟原來的以前三年前的完全不太一樣了嘛那所以你現在新的疫苗是最新的這個病毒的突變那應該都有cover到"},{"start":799.372,"end":817.937,"text":"至少自主會後 如果中就中不中重鎮嘛重鎮的死亡率高嘛 尤其是三高的人所以還是鼓勵要打啦個人覺得也是要鼓勵啦所以你們要宣導要講清楚啦現在老人家最大的疑慮就是剛剛我講的無主會死 主人白會死嗎"},{"start":823.702,"end":844.605,"text":"所以現在針對這個疫苗接種的利弊得失的話我們當然還是會最建議的就是在這個高風險的族群像是這65歲以上的長者或者是這個有這個慢性病的患者他們如果得到這個新冠之後病發重症跟死亡的風險都很高所以在這個族群我們是一直大力的推廣要接種好 謝謝好 謝謝署長 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時20分）謝謝召委，請部長及石署長。"],["主席：請部長及石署長。"],["邱部長泰源：蘇召委好。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛才大家都在討論急診，我跟你說屏東的情況。"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：屏東市有一間重度級醫院，也就是屏基，它升重度級之後，腦神經內科要提供24小時服務，所以大家都在那邊「釘」啦！結果4個神經內科醫生跑了3個，現在剩1個，這1位說要來我那邊，我說：不行啦！我跟院長說：你不能收，收了屏基就崩盤了。就是這麼嚴重啦！婦產科醫生原本有5個，跑掉只剩2個，這2個都女孩子，東港另外一間醫院剩2個婦產科醫生，一個八十幾歲、一個六十幾歲，署長，要怎麼辦？我現在跟他們說不然就做區域聯防啦！區域聯防是一個方式，所以還是要想辦法。屏基那個跑掉的就引導他到復興醫院的婦產科啦！不然要怎麼辦？","所以我們在地方上都很努力的讓醫院能夠維持好的運作，也要讓部長知道，這個問題真的不只發生在都市而已，鄉下也很嚴重。因為現在婦產科醫生平均都五、六十歲了，所以現在生孩子，這是很麻煩、非常麻煩。譬如像兒科，我們那邊現在維持7個兒科醫師，都是次專科，都在硬撐著，每個月都賠錢，而且賠得很嚴重，所以這個要怎麼補強，署長可能要研究看看要怎麼辦？","每一次看到你們，我都很疼惜啦！還要疼惜我們這些年輕醫生，但現在整個社會的觀念都變了，現在年輕人沒有在跟你聽這套，因為科技業者及晶片業者人員的需求量大，他們太好找工作了，而且只要你願意值班……我們的住院醫師在值班，人家產製晶片的資工人員也在值班，但是人家只要值班，年薪就250萬元起跳，像我看竹科的部分，就是8、8、8共計3班次，另外一個班是on call，就是不能離開新竹縣市，call你的時候40分鐘要到，就4班在run，每一個都是250萬元起跳，隔年就可以到300萬。我們院長的小孩是資工碩士，他現在在日月光，我問他現在月薪多少？他說：報告，八十幾萬年薪。只有上白班而已，如果他要值班就是260萬。","現在你跟年輕人講當公務人員多好、當警察多好、當醫生多好，他們根本不會理會你，以前公務人員的社會地位很高，現在公務人員搞一個什麼退休金是要用自己提撥的錢加政府提撥的錢，這一筆基金花完就沒了，現在聽說變成這樣，這樣還得了。我覺得以後高普考根本沒有人要考，整個都崩盤了嘛！整個價值觀都改變了，醫生的薪資這麼多年也沒有什麼提高，所以還是要籌多一點錢，待遇還是很重要啦！我聽說一個醫生住臺北市，當醫生當到老，買不到一間房子，笑死人！對不對？人家在國外是差不多18個月的月薪就可以買一個房子，4個月可以買一部車子，這是統計的啊！所以部長還有署長你們責任重大。關於健保，這十幾年來就是偶爾會出現某一個官員又洩密、拿資料出去，然後被判刑，好像一直出現這種案例。部長，現在內部要拿資料的權限到底有沒有加強？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有要求健保署一定要去查清楚，整個機制要加強，請署長回應。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這個案子還在檢調偵查中，不過在這個事件之後，我們已經重新檢討在內稽部分去強化，包含資料使用權限的限縮，還有可取得資料的欄位最少原則，如果需要大筆資料還要簽核，已經都加強了內控的機制，所有的使用紀錄也會留下來。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是你只要經過就會有痕跡。"],["石署長崇良：對，另外還導入外稽的機制，包含ISO 27001的標準、CNS 27001的標準，所以我們是強化內稽之外，也導入外稽的機制。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，出紕漏都是健保署，那國健署都沒事？國健署的資料也不少，關於三高、癌症病人的部分還得了！國健署有沒有洩漏出去？有沒有出事？"],["邱部長泰源：跟蘇召委報告這兩件事情，這個是刑事問題，我們這個法本來就很嚴格……他們進去那個房間裡面以去識別化拿出來只能……這是兩件事情。這部分當然會去檢討，但是今天討論的是我們本來就已經在做，後來因為憲判，所以把關於病人隱私部分做得更具保護跟安全，以讓大家安心。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，這有兩點，這個法案通過以後，就有比較清楚的規範要怎麼用，民眾的資料被拿去用，我跟你說，從現在開始的二十年，我的資料被人家使用了嗎？你的資料被人家使用了嗎？你也不知道。名字被去掉就用了，搞不好你已經被用了100次，我被用了1,000次，因為論文就有6,000篇，對不對？所以這個法通過，你也不知道到底有沒有繼續被人家使用？除非是退出還是不同意，那不就要發個文給健保署說我的資料都不讓人用，這樣有可能嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有啦！我們授權法規有來處理這個部分，而且會更細膩來看不能釋出哪些資料，基本上以我個人看來，如果去識別化對公共衛生及國家的醫藥發展提升有利，我覺得應該是沒有關係。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦！我們的資料去識別化被利用，名字都遮起來，如果都做到這樣當然安心，對社會也有貢獻，人家捐大體都在捐了，大體老師都是這樣捐的，所以我們是可以理解，但是一般百姓會不會理解？我不知道。好，這個法通過之後，跟另外有關盜賣個資、盜賣資料是兩回事，所以盜賣這一塊，你們有什麼防範的措施？除了剛剛署長講的之外，有再加強的部分嗎？還是現在都不可能發生，從此以後不會再發生了？"],["石署長崇良：對，我們都強化了，就是剛剛講的在那個事件之後，我們重新檢討過並強化，到目前都維持得很好。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定要強化到絕對不可能再發生。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天這個院版的法案提出來，是要迎合憲法法庭的判決，跟我們的資料會被盜賣是兩回事。這個要怎麼加強？你要回答嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：李處長。"],["李處長建璋：跟委員報告，關於資料被大量下載一事，我們已經從去年開始進行管理，只要每個月、每個單位有哪一個人在不對的時間、不對的地點、不對的量去下載資料，我們全部都有掌握，並且會提供給各個主管，所以在USB跟硬碟現在都有這些管理。"],["蘇委員清泉：OK。健保三十年來的就醫資料有六百八十幾億筆，有這麼多？怎麼用？現在有apply來申請，IRB通過之外，你們有一個委員會在審查？在核准嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有專案小組，裡面有24個委員在審查。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是每一筆都審查？"],["邱部長泰源：現在的設計是如果經過審查以後沒有爭議，當然就看看後續怎麼樣我們會再來研議，但是如果有困難、矛盾的，會由諮議會來處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個審查委員會上面還有一個諮議會？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個諮議會是比較……"],["邱部長泰源：它不可能逐案審查，可能委員也會受不了。"],["蘇委員清泉：不可能啦！所以這個委員會先……"],["邱部長泰源：審查小組。"],["蘇委員清泉：scan一次審查，過了就過了，沒有過的就再送到諮議委員會？"],["邱部長泰源：有爭議的送到諮議會。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，最後一個問題，疫苗現在還有三百多萬劑，目前只是鼓勵大家要施打。我自己已經施打了6支，我這個是標準的，如果有通知我就施打，但是施打到現在我會怕，部長你有施打嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我10月1日施打一支，4月1日又施打一支。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在很多老人家問我，鄉長、鎮長問他們要不要施打，施打後會怎麼樣？我都跟他們說，沒施打有可能會死掉。他問那施打後會死掉嗎？我說這也不一定。施打疫苗後發生事情的一大堆啊！"],["邱部長泰源：但是如果不施打疫苗，應該會更危險。"],["蘇委員清泉：更危險，比較會導致重症，重症會造成死亡。因為我在門診看診時，患者有年輕女孩等等的人，在過去施打COVID-19疫苗後，有心律不整的、有肋膜積水的、有心包膜積水的雜七雜八一大堆，關節問題都跑出來，一些自體免疫的data都變得不正常，每個人都問我這跟打疫苗有關係嗎？我對每個人都說有可能，但是他們去申請藥害救濟沒有一件通過，因為都不會死，但是卻有症狀，有的真的變成心律不整，我在心臟科這邊碰到一大堆，所以我越看越擔心。現在你要我施打，我還是會去施打，就是怕會死掉，對不對？但是人家如果問我，我真的都保留，部長，你宣示一下。"],["邱部長泰源：蘇召委，我請我們專家跟大家宣導，施打疫苗部分過去專家的意見及利弊得失？"],["蘇委員清泉：你要說喔！這是全國都在聽，我把這做成FB的影片po出去。"],["邱部長泰源：林詠青醫師是非常優秀的防疫醫師。"],["林簡任技正詠青：報告委員，因為我們目前還是有針對所有COVID-19疫苗接種之後通報的不良反應，一直在蒐集這方面的數據，食藥署也有做定期的統計。另外像委員提到有接種之後疑似因為疫苗造成的狀況，第一層的衛生局都會去調查，如果真的可能是跟疫苗有關，也會告知救濟的管道，也就是可以提疫苗預防接種受害救濟，我們有一個獨立的專家委員會審議，去判斷相關性。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為病毒本身一直在突變，突變到現在跟原來的、三年前的完全不太一樣，所以現在新的疫苗是最新的病毒突變，應該都有cover到至少注射之後，如果得到比較不會得重症。重症的死亡率高，尤其是有三高的人，個人覺得還是要鼓勵施打，所以你們要宣導，要講清楚。現在老人家最大的疑慮就是剛剛我講的，沒打會死，打了不知道會不會死？不知道。"],["林簡任技正詠青：現在針對疫苗接種的利弊得失，我們當然還是最建議在高風險族群，像是65歲以上的長者或者是有慢性病的患者，他們得到新冠之後，併發重症跟死亡的風險都很高，所以我們一直在這個族群大力推廣要接種。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝蘇召委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時34分）","繼續開會（10時46分）"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：現在我們請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b84459291d3d0f00db324bcba6a1b99ce3116a0dcc938fdb7fbdb685b55e0d0608bdf185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:08:55 - 10:20:21","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2025-06-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。\n二、委員林月琴等21人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。\n【詢答及審查】\n【第二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【6月9日及11日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-09","start_time":"2025-06-09T10:08:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-09T10:20:21+08:00","duration":686,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.79846875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.89034375,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.602843750000002,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.69909375,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.72846875,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.575343750000002,"end":36.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.915343750000005,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.33596875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.486593750000004,"end":69.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.72471875000001,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.92221875,"end":75.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.08659375,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.13784375,"end":105.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.49971875,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.12221875,"end":198.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.91971875000002,"end":200.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.70846875,"end":202.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.72534375,"end":228.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.40471875,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.30721875,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.09534375,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.98534375000003,"end":238.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.84471875000003,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.81909375,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.33721875,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.13721875000005,"end":270.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.52034375,"end":271.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.91659375,"end":273.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.13596875,"end":277.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.37159375000005,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.32909375,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.25721875,"end":281.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.13034375,"end":283.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.53096875,"end":287.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.12534375,"end":291.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.69909375000003,"end":289.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.55534375,"end":290.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.92221875,"end":307.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.43034375,"end":307.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.54409375,"end":311.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.77159375,"end":312.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.72909375,"end":316.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.75784375,"end":321.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.74034375,"end":320.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.11159375,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.97221875,"end":322.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.96784375000004,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.06909375000004,"end":325.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.98846875000004,"end":328.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.00534375,"end":326.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.52846875,"end":326.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.43534375,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.98721875,"end":350.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.21659375,"end":351.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.33034375,"end":359.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.81846875,"end":376.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.93409375000005,"end":394.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.38284375,"end":398.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.26409375000003,"end":400.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.86721875,"end":400.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.39034375,"end":427.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.09909375,"end":432.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.11096875000004,"end":434.730968750000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我看到這個數字有點嚇到上看120人 我不曉得這位醫師講的是真實的還是是他有推估比較多 如果是這樣一個數據的話"},{"start":54.528,"end":75.29,"text":"那我覺得面對未來還有新冠疫情的升溫這是讓人家會非常擔心的就是可能連急診的第一現場要去救治病患這個人手都嚴重的不足第二個是重症的部分剛剛也這個陳俊輝醫師有提到這個新聞也引發大家的關注就是"},{"start":76.151,"end":80.173,"text":"這位長庚醫院的這位醫師他發出的這個訊息簡訊我覺得是一個求救的訊息就是他在現場他可能已經看到這樣的狀況的惡化如果再不告訴醫院的高層跟政府的高層"},{"start":95.678,"end":111.93,"text":"他認為這樣的一個醫療的崩壞真的是我想他站在現場第一位真的是非常的擔心所以我個人會覺得這樣的簡訊是是一種求救性就覺得現場的狀況真的很糟了那我就要問一下部長你們有沒有實際"},{"start":113.451,"end":136.866,"text":"去了解 去關心或者去找這些疾重症的醫師們真的坐下來稍微焦點團體一下他們現在最最需要政府伸出援手的到底是什麼看了讓人家很心疼啊就是感覺他們是願意蹭在第一線的但是感覺快要倒下了然後希望說是不是趕快有人可以來協助他們我看到這樣的訊息是有這樣子的一個感受"},{"start":142.91,"end":150.655,"text":"那我現在要問的就是說作為中央部會主管機關到底衛福部在緊急當然分階段剛剛部長你有說有一些是長期根本的問題但是現況就已經很糟了那現在這麼糟怎麼樣去穩住他們然後讓這個醫療現場不要有更多的這個醫師離開我覺得這個是我們處理事情分階段這個是第一要務可能要做的請問衛福部可以做什麼他們已經發出這樣一個訊息請問衛福部可以做什麼"},{"start":172.182,"end":197.29,"text":"好謝謝委員的詢問我想分幾個來報告第一個急診方面有建議在過年那段期間的游泳賽我們除了對護理方面的盡量來給他照顧鼓勵改善以外當然相對的對醫師也會好因為整個是團隊的事情在這個部分也有提高給付第二個我們也希望能夠分級醫療減少"},{"start":199.806,"end":206.774,"text":"減少那個急診醫師的部分輕重那個急診醫師是這樣子我們一年大概像113年的急診醫師是102個通過那112年在前年是109個大概都100出頭那當然我們我剛剛有報告過"},{"start":218.737,"end":237.865,"text":"有些醫院可能離開的比較嚴重有些醫院像台大我剛剛只有一個退休其他目前是還沒有動那我想問的就是說比較嚴重的你們有沒有特別去觀察我想我們如果以這種訊息出來我們當然想要來瞭解整個很快來瞭解急重症我們這兩天在討論部隊在討論就一直說要去注意到各個科裡面的一個"},{"start":246.188,"end":266.674,"text":"現在的流線 我懂 但是急診是第一線他講120人 我覺得這個數據 你覺得有高估嗎現場是不是大概是這樣子因為120人 上百位要離職他說沒表 才想離職有這麼高 這個上百位其實對第一線現場 我覺得是一個很大的衝擊因為說實在的啦 長這段這些年來的確我們當醫師也很辛苦"},{"start":273.324,"end":290.033,"text":"像我一輩子在醫院打扮我也買不到一間房子台北市還在貸款所以你就知道說年輕的醫師是不是更加的困難所以他們當然會牽涉我這個改變就牽涉到你的各種給付、工作環境這個是長久以來累積的一個很大的當然我們很感佩"},{"start":301.039,"end":315.891,"text":"立法院這一屆的委員真的都很用心在幫忙解決這個問題我們的政府真的也是日夜在解決這個問題醫療方面被立法院全力支持以我當一個醫學院教授這麼多年我總是希望我的學生出來"},{"start":316.832,"end":344.509,"text":"能夠好我做 不能給他遭避 不然我就死了對啊 所以那個環境很重要嘛可能就不是去做他的專科了所以部長 因為我還有下一個要問的如果能夠跑到蘇昭偉那邊去服務還可以得到很好的奮鬥環境因為現在現場無論是急診或是重症他們都已經發出這樣的求救訊息那我覺得作為中央主管機關你們有責任要提出方案"},{"start":345.109,"end":359.61,"text":"到底怎麼去解決跟改善那這個部分我覺得你們應該要去回應就是基層的問題我們知道長期來問題我們知道但是眼下是這樣一個問題因為接下來我就要問新冠的高峰"},{"start":360.965,"end":376.391,"text":"還要面對這樣的挑戰如果前面的急診量能都不足了醫師要離開那過去的新冠疫情我們已經看到了急診現場亂成一團全部擁捨到那邊去恐怕是雪上加霜啊"},{"start":377.071,"end":399.591,"text":"所以我們應該要看一下這個部分你如果沒有解決未來這一些在增加新的疫情的人進到急診來那這個真的是會很可怕的一件事情所以我這邊希望你們針對之前的就是在新冠疫情高峰的時候所有的這個配套方案你們要超前部署是的我們有超前部署"},{"start":400.532,"end":412.055,"text":"那接下來我要問的是今天這個委員會要審的有關於整個健保資料庫的這個管理怎麼去加強它的監督管理因為之前的外洩事件的確對於個人來講這個是一個個資被倒賣那我想這個是一個很嚴重的這個侵害"},{"start":420.857,"end":436.81,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況底下你們這一次的修法就是你們好像是就用退出權而不是同意權這樣的概念也就是說我的健保資料要不要要不要提供學術研究是我要去申請退出"},{"start":438.106,"end":460.527,"text":"然後它才不會在上面而不是像金融機構說我可不可以應用你的資料它是問你的同意為什麼是這樣的差別因為現在也有民間團體說那為什麼是我要記得去講的時候我的資料才不會被應用就是一下子好像政府就幫我做決定你只要在我資料庫裡面呢我就是通通都可以用那我就問你像這些未成年人的資料"},{"start":461.167,"end":482.679,"text":"他自己可能也沒有敏感這個議題他也不會去退出啊那他的資料就是大批的從0到18歲通通都是政府使用那有一些年紀比較大的這些老人他可能不太知道這件事啊所以他的資料就整個在資料庫裡面就是沒有經過同意情況底下只是因為他沒有退出所以就被大量的使用我不知道你們有沒有思考過這個問題"},{"start":483.84,"end":498.119,"text":"因為當民間團體這樣子質疑的時候這的確是一個我們在如果同時要保護各自的話不是應該是他同意的情況底下使用嗎那你們現在是說你退出我就不用這有沒有有點便宜形式啊"},{"start":499.161,"end":526.869,"text":"好 我想同意不同意這件事情 等一下再請那個負責健保的主管來報告那我先跟兩件事情報告 第一件事情就是資安系統我們被攻擊了以後 我們衛福部立即啟動各種防衛的機制 現在應該都攻不進去了醫院方面啦 不是健保局裡面 健保署裡面那健保署裡面的資料早就 這些年來 可能有十幾年了吧"},{"start":527.609,"end":545.018,"text":"是非常的嚴格一定要到一個房間然後你什麼都不能帶喔那有人幫你輔導你要的資料就跑完跑完之後拿出結果完全都氣勢白話所以這個部分其實在個資方面是絕對沒有問題我想請署長也可以再confirm一下"},{"start":545.598,"end":573.326,"text":"跟委員報告我們採取這個所謂的這個退出權的行使主要是第一個我們這個資料的使用有相當的限縮他是以公益目的使用第二個資料都在特定的空間裡面那麼經過去識別化之後的資料來跑所以理論上他已經這個相當的安全那麼使用的時候已經很安全再者呢也不可以有資料的吸出"},{"start":573.786,"end":583.693,"text":"最後只拿出的是統計的結果所以在安全性還有各自的保護上已經達到最高的程度保護是一回事那我是在問說為什麼不是取得個人的同意權而是用退出權"},{"start":589.036,"end":609.514,"text":"其實所有的資料的使用它也是按照它的程度的不同有所謂的OP IN OP OUT就是說事前告知同意或者是事後退出都可以就是假設同意事後退出或事前同意那麼事後退出或事前同意這有三種的不同的方式那我們這個資料因為已經這個"},{"start":612.196,"end":637.525,"text":"基本上都已經是經過去各自的方式去處理過所以我們採用的是用那個假設同意事後退出然後經過專法的管理我想這個問題我們還會回到主條的討論但是我也希望主管機關去思考就是說運用他的這些資料然後如果是他同意就是作為研究使用在這個"},{"start":639.005,"end":655.55,"text":"民眾他有同意的情況底下我想你們使用起來是更放心但是我們現在模式是有點覺得說我既然都已經去識別化了然後我也保護的很安全所以不用經過你的同意這個你沒有反對再出聲這樣子會變成是有點倒過來這個跟現在就是我們有個資法之後的這個潮流坦白講他不是一致性很高的就是說你看連金融機構他們現在都被要求說要勾很多的同意書"},{"start":668.763,"end":686.435,"text":"他才可以這樣子所以我希望這個問題呢你們也好好思考在相關修法的時候我有相關的修正動作大家在討論好我們希望這個條例能夠創造三贏的局面是是好謝謝委員好謝謝翁委員的宣導也謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時9分）謝謝召委，有請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，剛剛很多委員都提到了現在醫療現場急重症人力不足的問題，再加上從昨天到今天，陸續有急診科醫師提到急診科醫師想要離開而沒有表態的人數上看120人，我看到這個數字有點嚇到，我不曉得這位醫師講的是真實的，還是他有推估比較多？如果是這樣的數據，我覺得面對未來還有新冠疫情的升溫，讓人家非常擔心，就是可能連急診要去救治病患的第一現場，人手都嚴重不足。","第二個是重症的部分，剛剛陳菁徽醫師也有提到，這個新聞引發大家的關注，這一位長庚醫院的醫師發出的簡訊，我覺得是一個求救的訊息，他在現場可能已經看到狀況的惡化，如果再不告訴醫院高層跟政府高層，他認為這樣的醫療崩壞，站在第一線的現場，真的是非常擔心，所以我個人會覺得這樣的簡訊是一種求救信，覺得現場的狀況真的很糟了。我就要問一下部長，你們有沒有實際去了解、關心，或者去找這一些急重症的醫師們，真的坐下來，稍微聚焦一下，他們現在最需要政府伸出援手的到底是什麼？看得讓人家很心疼，他們是願意撐在第一線的，但是感覺快要倒下了，希望趕快有人可以協助他們，我看到訊息是有這樣的感受。我現在要問的就是，作為中央部會主管機關，到底衛福部在緊急……當然分階段，剛剛部長有說有一些是長期根本的問題，但是現況就已經很糟了，現在這麼糟，怎樣去穩住他們，讓醫療現場不要有更多的醫師離開？我們處理事情要分階段，而這是第一要務要做的，他們已經發出這樣的訊息，請問衛福部可以做什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的詢問，我想分幾點來報告，第一個，急診方面，有鑑於過年那段期間的壅塞，我們除了對護理方面儘量照顧、鼓勵、改善以外，當然相對的，對醫師也會好，因為整個是團隊的事情，在這個部分也有提高給付。第二個，我們也希望能夠分級醫療，減少輕、重症的……"],["王委員育敏：急診醫師的部分？"],["邱部長泰源：像113年的急診醫師是102個通過，112年是109個通過，一年大概都一百出頭個醫師通過，我剛才有報告過，有些醫院可能離開的比較嚴重，有些醫院像臺大，我剛也報告過就只有1個退休，其他目前是還沒有動。"],["王委員育敏：對，那我想問的就是比較嚴重的，你們有沒有特別去關心？"],["邱部長泰源：如果這種訊息出來，我們當然想要了解整個急重症現在的狀況，我們這兩天部內討論就一直說要去注意到各個科裡面現在的流向。"],["王委員育敏：我懂，但是急診是第一線，他講120人，這數據你覺得有高估嗎？現場是不是大概是這樣？因為上百位要離職，他說沒表態想離職的數據有這麼高，上百位想離職，其實對第一線現場是一個很大的衝擊，你們掌握到情況是如何？"],["邱部長泰源：說實在的，這些年來，的確我們當醫師也很辛苦，像我一輩子在醫院努力，我也買不到一間房子，臺北市的房子也還在貸款，你就知道年輕的醫師是不是更加的困難，所以他們當然會尋求……"],["王委員育敏：對，但部長你現在有權力，你可以去改變。"],["邱部長泰源：這個改變就牽涉到各種給付、工作環境，這個是長久以來累積很大的問題。當然我們很感佩立法院這一屆的委員，真的很用心在幫忙解決這個問題，我們政府真的也是日夜在解決這個問題。"],["王委員育敏：我們都願意支持，醫療方面的經費，立法院全力支持。"],["邱部長泰源：以我當一個醫學院教授這麼多年，我總是希望我的學生出來能夠好好做，不要跑掉，不然我就多教的啊！"],["王委員育敏：對啊，所以環境很重要。"],["邱部長泰源：他們走了可能就不是去做他的專科了。"],["王委員育敏：部長，因為我還有下一個要問……"],["邱部長泰源：如果能夠跑到我們蘇召委那邊去服務，還可以得到很好的奮鬥環境。"],["王委員育敏：因為現在現場，不論是急診或是重症，他們都已經發出這樣的求救訊息，我覺得作為中央主管機關，你們有責任要提出方案，到底怎麼去解決跟改善，這部分我覺得你們應該要去回應，就是我們知道基層的問題，我們也知道長期以來的問題，但是眼下是這樣的問題，因為接下來我就要問，還要面對新冠疫情高峰這樣的挑戰，如果前面的急診量能都不足了，醫師要離開，過去的新冠疫情我們已經看到了，就是急診現場亂成一團，全部壅塞到那邊去，恐怕是雪上加霜啊！我們應該要看一下，倘若這個部分你們沒有解決，未來再增加新疫情的病人進到急診來，真的會是很可怕的一件事情。所以我這邊希望你們針對之前新冠疫情高峰的時候，所有的配套方案，你們要超前部署。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我們有超前部署。"],["王委員育敏：好。接下來要請教的是，針對今天委員會要審查有關於整個健保資料庫的管理，如何加強它的監督管理？因為之前的個資外洩事件，的確對於個人來講，個資被盜賣是一個很嚴重的侵害，在這樣的情況下，你們這一次的修法好像是用退出權，而不是同意權這樣的概念，也就是我的健保資料要不要提供學術研究，是我要去申請退出，然後個資才不會在上面，而不是像金融機構問可不可以運用你的資料，他們是要經過你的同意，為什麼有這樣的差別？因為現在也有民間團體說：為什麼是我要自己去講，我的資料才不會被運用？就是政府好像一下子就幫我做決定，只要在政府的資料庫裡面，就是通通都可以使用。","我就問你，像一些未成年人的資料，他們自己可能也沒有敏感到這個議題，他們也不會自己去退出，那他們的資料就是大批的從0到18歲通通都是政府使用，有一些年紀比較大的老年人，他們可能也不太知道這件事，所以他們的資料就整個在資料庫裡面，在沒有經過同意的情況下，只因為他們沒有退出，所以就被大量的使用。我不知道你們有沒有思考過這個問題？因為當民間團體這樣質疑的時候，如果我們同時要保護個資，不是應該要在他同意的情況下使用嗎？你們現在是說：你退出我就不用。這有沒有有點便宜行事？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想同意不同意這件事，等一下再請負責健保業務的主責單位報告。我先報告兩件事情：第一件事情，當我們資安系統被攻擊了之後，衛福部會立即啟動各種防衛的機制，現在應該都攻不進去了，這是針對醫院方面，不是健保署裡面，而在健保署裡面的資料，這些年來，可能有十幾年了，早就控管得非常嚴格，若要索取資料一定要到一個特定的房間裡，什麼都不能帶，進入之後有專人會協助，資料跑完的結果完全都是去識別化，所以這個部分在個資方面是絕對沒有問題。我請署長可以再confirm一下。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們採取所謂退出權的行使，主要是：第一個，我們這個資料的使用有相當的限縮，它是以公益目的使用；第二個，資料都在特定的空間裡面，經過去識別化之後的資料提供，所以理論上它已經相當的安全，使用的時候一定很安全，再者也不可以將這些資料攜出，最後拿到的只是統計的結果，所以在安全性及個資的保護上已經達到最高的程度，但是……"],["王委員育敏：保護是一回事啦！我是在問，為什麼不是取得個人的同意權，而是用退出權？"],["石署長崇良：其實所有資料的使用也是按照程度的不同，有所謂的opt-in和opt-out，就是事前告知同意，或者是事後退出都可以，假設同意事後退出、事前同意事後退出或事前同意，有這三種不同的方式，我們這個資料基本上都已經是經過去個資的方式處理過，所以我們採用的是假設同意事後退出，再經過專法的管理。"],["王委員育敏：我想這個問題，我們還會回到逐條討論，但是我也希望主管機關思考，就是運用他們的這些資料作為研究使用，在民眾同意的情況下，我想你們使用起來是更放心，但是我們現在模式有點像是：既然都已經去識別化了，也保護得很安全，所以不用經過你的同意，你有反對再出聲。這會變成是有點倒過來，這個跟我們現在有個資法之後的潮流，坦白講，它不是一致性很高的，你看連金融機構他們現在都被要求要勾很多的同意書，他們才可以使用，所以我希望這個問題你們也好好去思考，在修法的時候，我有相關的修正動議，大家再來討論。"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望這個條例能夠創造三贏的局面。"],["王委員育敏：是。好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員的詢答及謝謝部長。","接下來請蘇清泉召委做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162332","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162332","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b84459269a0b6311f9c26e6ba6a1b99ce3116a0dcc938fdb7fbdb689c2ab639a50d16805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:54:58 - 10:08:49","影片長度":"00:13:51","會議時間":"2025-06-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。\n二、委員林月琴等21人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。\n【詢答及審查】\n【第二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【6月9日及11日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-09","start_time":"2025-06-09T09:54:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-09T10:08:49+08:00","duration":831,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.77346875,"end":3.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.46846875,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.957843750000002,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.09284375,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.94971875,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.81846875,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.49721875,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.51096875,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.26846875000001,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.59034375,"end":99.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.27284375,"end":119.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.58409375000001,"end":105.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.43846875000001,"end":119.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.53971875,"end":126.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.40346875,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.28409375,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.51596875,"end":154.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.20096875000002,"end":154.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.77471875,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.87409375000001,"end":171.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.59909375,"end":194.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.13971875000001,"end":197.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.18159375000002,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.74596875,"end":244.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.26471875000001,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.56846875000002,"end":205.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.66346875000002,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.09471875,"end":274.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.48596875000004,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.19659375000003,"end":298.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.24596875000003,"end":362.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.14721875000004,"end":366.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.14659375,"end":385.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.52846875,"end":380.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.86096875000004,"end":387.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.24909375000004,"end":401.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.01034375,"end":414.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.85221875,"end":419.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.74596875000003,"end":434.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.74784375,"end":441.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.59471875,"end":448.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.27721875000003,"end":458.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.18284375,"end":459.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.31346875,"end":485.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.47409375,"end":500.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.22284375000004,"end":509.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.21721875000003,"end":531.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.0659687500001,"end":544.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.1103437500001,"end":554.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.53534375,"end":567.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.9422187499999,"end":573.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.86534375,"end":580.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.3915937500001,"end":585.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.9140937500001,"end":589.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.9978437500001,"end":623.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.66346875,"end":624.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.5915937500001,"end":636.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.31971875,"end":646.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.9678437499999,"end":647.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.8959687500001,"end":671.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.2678437500001,"e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也是要幫你鼓勵一下因為除了台北區0.936南區跟東區每一點都超過一元有一些事情做對了 比如說開源你們增加了712億 實質成長率突破8%加大投資 另外把一些醫療項目移出健保總額積極爭取 有一些用公務預算來挹注所以本席很關心的是 你們今年"},{"start":88.352,"end":105.532,"text":"還是一樣要用8%這個成長率來規劃嗎還是更多這個是醫護人員期待的因為最終我們還是希望點只是1點1元我們現在衛福部建議的最高推估是跟去年跟今年是一樣的明年是5.5%"},{"start":108.055,"end":133.6,"text":"那其他為什麼要到成長,獅子成長8%是因為我們把一些項目移出來那這個部分我們會再繼續來溝通來看看哪些項目可以再陸續來移出來那政府應該還會在一些計畫裡面,就像我們補治今年補治寒病原來在健保總會也有保障,再多了另外多了二十億那所以這個政府還會有"},{"start":136.943,"end":152.754,"text":"還要基金也會再增加,所以我想增加從公務預算以及我們增加的量應該跟今年一樣那公務預算或移出來的這個部分補起來我想規模也會"},{"start":154.855,"end":165.792,"text":"那其中你還有一個政策是比較關乎於節流是穩定點植有幫助您認為個別醫院總額目前你有沒有遇到什麼瓶頸"},{"start":166.903,"end":194.102,"text":"好 我想個別醫院走合是希望能夠以區域來講 個別當然是我們希望有分級醫療能夠落實那也希望醫院能夠財務自己管理那我們也不是說只有醫院管理我們應該有區域的我們很希望只六個分區能夠所有的醫院自行來管理以病人的健康為中心因為就是那些錢"},{"start":195.205,"end":205.62,"text":"那你怎麼樣讓病人更健康那我先給你看現在遇到什麼問題上禮拜大家這邊非常多委員啊官員都一起去觀摩這個中榮做得非常好的AI智能醫院那但是他卻被斷頭三億"},{"start":211.648,"end":239.034,"text":"所以現在我們用這個三階段折付制度逐漸的去打折一旦報大量超過三階段就完全不予給付那你把大家一起承受這個系統性的風險轉到個別醫院去承擔就是說你們醫院服務量大你們就自己來扛我有很多同學現在在不同的醫院有醫學中心有地區醫院有區域醫院結果他們被柔性勸導"},{"start":240.094,"end":266.355,"text":"第三季 第四季說 縮減一點門診門診 有一些門診要關起來這個你們有聽說這個狀況嗎因為現在個別醫院是各自為政自己去做控管嘛那我是認為如果你剛剛講的 以病人為中心以醫療服務為中心有一些醫院他就是沒有辦法因為區醫院 地區醫院他自己在控管所以全部塞到像中榮這樣子的大醫院去"},{"start":267.136,"end":285.294,"text":"他自然就會爆量啊這個爆量也不是他能夠控制的嘛那你全國不同調最後受害的還是人民服務量降不下來的狀況你有沒有一個統一的規範可以去調整不然每一個醫院絕對是亂成一團現在有人是限制門診限制門診等一下我告訴你另外一個問題限制門診病人就擠到急診去"},{"start":290.233,"end":308.789,"text":"好 報告委員 我想我剛剛已經提到了我們要從根來解決由根本來解決醫療體系的問題怎麼樣讓人民更健康使用然後該盡量不要生病一生小病是有一個社區就可以得到一個很好的照顧讓他小病不要變大病"},{"start":309.75,"end":327.149,"text":"那大病應該有分級的各種不管是大小病或重大病或重病那有不同的不管從醫學中心去醫院甚至地區醫院都應該做好他的角色這個才是根本之道那我想也拜託民眾能夠了解到我們一直在推分級醫療也需要"},{"start":327.589,"end":355.658,"text":"全國的民眾大家來瞭解來配合我們市級包括基層醫療的醫師都是非常優秀都是從教學醫院的主治醫師出來的他願意到社區服務就是願意貼近民眾請大家多多利用那這樣的一個制度是能夠解決未來的問題那個別財務的管理是一個促使達到這樣目標的一個一個手段那至於說台中總統這樣我們真的這些好朋友們真的很辛苦"},{"start":358.179,"end":372.546,"text":"民眾也對他們很有信任,所以他們的成長率真的比較高但是憲保署方面也給他的最平均與中區6.6%之下,他給他7.9%的成長所以他實質上的收入比去年的同期是增加了2.5億元"},{"start":379.509,"end":400.791,"text":"不管怎麼樣我還是要補充一下我們希望醫學中心真的扮演他急重症的角色我再來要跟你討論急重症現在遇到什麼問題我們不想要看到很優秀的醫院被懲罰畢竟你說實際收入增加2.5億可是他還是有部分的醫療服務他什麼東西都沒有拿到這也是事實"},{"start":402.185,"end":413.848,"text":"這也是事實所以我們不想要第三劑 第四劑又遇到同樣的問題因為我是在市井你剛剛講得很好要分急醫療急重症等等我給你看一下急診你遇到什麼大問題急診到現在66個醫師流失離職了"},{"start":419.87,"end":437.483,"text":"根據急診醫學會內部的統計還有40到50位醫生正在離職的路上所以他們推估今年有可能上看120位要離職那你知道今年通過專科醫師考試的只有92位耶只有92位這一些很有經驗的人離職新進來的心血還遠低於離職的人數"},{"start":442.677,"end":458.164,"text":"有一個記者跑去台中榮民總醫院嘉義分院擔任急診醫師的人去做採訪他是中榮最大的分院他們統計起來他們至少需要五個急診醫師可是他們只有四個人真人啟示貼了五年都還沒有來那"},{"start":460.433,"end":472.483,"text":"上次我想到說 你二月的時候有用這個特別預算去做一些解決啦但是也有人提到說 是不是把醫師的診療費 診察費分出了護理費來挖東牆 補西牆請問這個42億到底錢用到哪裡去 實際作為是什麼為什麼我們現在的急診人力還在不斷的流失中"},{"start":485.526,"end":508.584,"text":"好,世事貿易的事情,等一下請業務單位監報署報告我還是要講整體醫療體系的事情那我想急診醫師,我們不能量數目是一件事情但是每一個急診醫師,每一個人都是一個非常優秀而且面臨很大壓力,一個一個都是我們想要照顧,也很心疼的"},{"start":509.344,"end":523.476,"text":"每一位議事人力啦齁那我最近也剛好回台大碰到基層部主任那也是我的學生齁我就問他說你們留師的狀況怎麼樣他說有一位退休一位想要到分練區我說為什麼要到分練區"},{"start":524.705,"end":544.131,"text":"我可能總院壓力很大但是已經欠說之下他是留下來啦所以台大主治醫師好像就是一個退休一個本來要走後來沒有離開這是大概三天前我問的事情那我但是當然我也希望所有的醫院真的要了解到我們急診尤其"},{"start":545.531,"end":573.088,"text":"大概每一顆啦 其實每一顆都可能會有這種問題所以我們必須要整體來思考這件事情我不能說哪一顆就比較嚴重你可以整體思考 但現在真的有一點危急因為我五月的時候就提過臨時提案面臨這個急診人力荒 到現在都還沒回我難道你們是想不出解決方案了跟你講一個更嚴重的除了急診雲嘉南地區最近發生了一些網路上很大的事情"},{"start":573.968,"end":599.228,"text":"神經內科的醫生他們除了面臨這些我剛講的是急診醫生喔急診醫生還會出來講話重症醫生有些是默默的默默的就離開職場了他們處理的是最多醫療糾紛的事情他們除了面臨職場的壓力還要面臨網路上的網路霸凌有一位神內醫師他在網路上嚴重的被霸凌後來醫院經過了幾天站出來幫他講話結果呢我們來看一下"},{"start":603.812,"end":622.946,"text":"另外一位醫師他請大家認真歡迎的轉發並且鼓勵投書的Lancet真的很丟臉你以前人家說台灣醫療崩壞不准寫到的Lancet硬把這篇文章拉下來還有一大堆側翼去攻擊寫文章的醫生現在又有一個醫生站出來了"},{"start":623.706,"end":649.605,"text":"他說家常身為雲嘉南最後的後送中心因為本院神內嚴重的崩盤為了保存本院重症人力即日起實施第一個非適應症勿在此群組發文二無神經科人力無法收治腦中風請直接聯絡他院急診轉院勿在此群組發文三重症人力需用在刀口上"},{"start":650.705,"end":673.421,"text":"10pm到7am不再收治無明顯效應之轉診以上非常抱歉這是重症醫療崩盤的下下之策感佩還願意留在最前線的各位也希望帶回給各醫院高層與政府高層正式腦中風醫療崩壞善待願意留下來的各位歡迎轉發鼓勵推出The Lancet"},{"start":678.39,"end":693.85,"text":"你剛講得很好 落實分級醫療希望集中症的人都可以留任你撥了42億 說要鼓勵這些人留任這些人現在直接在網路上說拜託大家轉發 鼓勵投書的Lancet你還要再把Lancet文章拉下來嗎"},{"start":695.84,"end":721.338,"text":"包委員我想這個要分幾個方面來講我剛剛有提過醫療體系真的要從根來就其那當然第二個健保的一個我們台灣健保30年是讓我們台灣窮人能夠得到很好的醫療所以我們要珍惜那健保現在的總額就是這樣子我們已經盡量做好幾乎所有的科都會覺得當然比其他國家幾戶都是"},{"start":722.239,"end":738.33,"text":"第一,這個我們真的也要想辦法,我想政府也一直,你看所以今年才會補助這麼多的公務的預算也希望未來立法院這邊也能夠多多幫忙,讓健保的資源能夠更加的充沛那我相信對於各級戶"},{"start":739.891,"end":748.22,"text":"畢竟在疫還是很重要的事情我知道像署長本人也是急診科醫師出身嘛所以我真的希望你們好好的去盤點現在急重症的人力因為他們已經在預警已經在示警了我不希望你們第三劑第四劑又遇到相同的問題"},{"start":755.268,"end":776.632,"text":"最後一個您出國的時候大家知道說我們最大的教學醫院的聖堂某一個科別從最基層的醫師到大教授都出了性侵害性騷擾等等事件所以針對醫師法第25條在這邊希望要求你們可以具體的把違背醫學倫理做含釋請問可以答應嗎最後公佈在你們的法規檢索系統"},{"start":782.301,"end":785.365,"text":"因為上次次長來報告他說正在跟每一個團體做討論跟研擬"},{"start":787.935,"end":802.938,"text":"我想我們醫生就是不能違背醫療倫理這是天經地義不變的真理我跟你說你出國的時候就是因為沒關係這個不管我出國不出國你出國的時候就是因為他沒有根據醫師法這25條把他送懲戒對就是因為沒有根據25條去送懲戒因為他沒有寫寫清楚哪些狀況有含釋違反醫療醫學倫理"},{"start":816.536,"end":818.459,"text":"所以之後你們可不可以 我會追這個進度會趕快的把具體來回應委員的詢問好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":346,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時55分）謝謝主席還有各位委員，我請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。你還記得去年7月，我們有一個朝野協商，當時你說今年6月30以前，要達成平均點值1點0.95元，可是您今年1月受訪時有一點沒信心，今天已經6月9號，所以大家都很關心，你6月30號以前有沒有辦法達到平均點值1點0.95元？"],["邱部長泰源：我們第一季的成果已經出來，可不可以請署長跟委員報告一下？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們主要有五個總額，分別是醫院總額、西醫基層總額、牙醫、中醫以及透析總額，目前除了西醫基層的部分平均點值是0.946，其餘都達到0.95以上。"],["陳委員菁徽：投影片我幫你整理出來，也是要幫你鼓勵一下，因為除了臺北區0.936，南區跟東區每1點都超過1元。有一些事情做對了，比如說開源，你們增加了712億，實質成長率突破8%，加大投資，另外把一些醫療項目移出健保總額，積極爭取有一些用公務預算來挹注。所以本席很關心的是，你們今年還是一樣要用8%這個成長率來規劃嗎？還是更多？這個是醫護人員期待的，因為最終我們還是希望點值是1點1元。"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在衛福部建議的最高推估跟今年是一樣的……"],["陳委員菁徽：8%？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，5.5。為什麼實質成長會到8%？是因為我們把一些項目移出來，這個部分，我們會再繼續溝通看看哪些項目可以再陸續移出來，政府應該還會在一些計畫裡面，就像我們今年補助的罕病，原來在健保總額也有保障，再另外多了20億，癌藥基金今年也會再增加。所以從公務預算以及我們增加的量應該跟今年一樣，公務預算或移出來的這個部分補起來，規模應該也會……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，其中你還有一個政策是比較關乎於節流，對穩定點值有幫助，您認為「個別醫院總額」目前有沒有遇到什麼瓶頸？"],["邱部長泰源：好，以「個別醫院總額」來講，我們當然希望分級醫療能夠落實，也希望醫院能夠財務自主管理，我們也不是說只有醫院管理，我們很希望這六個分區所有的醫院能夠自行管理，以病人的健康為中心，因為就是那些錢，那你怎麼樣讓病人更健康。"],["陳委員菁徽：我先給你看現在遇到什麼問題，上禮拜這邊非常多委員、官員都一起去觀摩中榮，做得非常好的AI智能醫院，但是它卻被斷頭3億。現在我們用三階段折付制度逐漸去打折，一旦爆大量，超過三階段就完全不予給付，你把大家一起承受系統性的風險，轉到個別醫院去承擔，就是醫院服務量大者，就必須自己來扛。","我有很多同學，現在在不同的醫院，有醫學中心、有地區醫院、有區域醫院，結果他們被柔性勸導第三季、第四季縮減一點門診，有一些門診要關起來，你們有聽說這個狀況嗎？因為現在個別醫院是各自為政，自己去做控管，如果是你剛剛講的以病人為中心，以醫療服務為中心，但有一些醫院就是沒有辦法，因為區域醫院、地區醫院都在控管，所以全部塞到像中榮這樣的大醫院去，自然就會爆量，這個爆量也不是它能夠控制的，全國不同調，最後受害的還是人民。服務量降不下來的狀況，你有沒有一個統一的規範可以去調整？不然每一個醫院絕對是亂成一團。現在有人是限制門診，但限制門診我告訴你另外一個問題，限制門診病人就擠到急診去。"],["邱部長泰源：好，報告委員，我想我剛剛已經提到，我們要從根本來解決，由根本來解決醫療體系的問題。怎麼樣讓人民更健康？儘量不要生病，生小病在社區就可以得到很好的照顧，讓他小病不要變大病；大病應該有各種的分級，不管是大病或重病，不管是醫學中心、區域醫院，甚至地區醫院都應該做好它的角色，這個才是根本之道。","也拜託民眾能夠了解我們一直在推分級醫療，也需要全國的民眾大家來了解、配合，我們有四級，包括基層醫療的醫師，都是非常優秀，都是從教學醫院的主治醫師出來的，他願意到社區服務，就是願意貼近民眾，請大家多多利用，這樣的制度是能夠解決未來的問題。","個別財務的管理，是促使達到這樣目標的一個手段。至於臺中榮總的情況，這些好朋友們真的很辛苦，民眾對他們很信任，所以他們的成長率真的比較高，但是在中區平均6.6%之下，健保署給他們7.9%的成長，所以他們實質上的收入比去年的同期是增加了2.5億元，這是第一個。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，不管怎麼樣它其實……"],["邱部長泰源：我還是要補充一下，我們希望醫學中心真的扮演急重症的角色……"],["陳委員菁徽：我再來要跟你討論急重症現在遇到什麼問題。我們不想要看到很優秀的醫院被懲罰，畢竟你說實際收入增加2.5億，可是還是有部分的醫療服務是什麼東西都沒有拿到，這也是事實。所以我們不想要第三季、第四季又遇到同樣的問題，我是在示警。你剛剛講得很好，要分級醫療、急重症等等，我給你看現在急診遇到什麼大問題，急診到現在流失66個醫師、離職了！根據急診醫學會內部的統計，還有40到50位醫生正在離職的路上，所以他們推估今年有可能上看120位要離職，你知道今年通過專科醫師考試的只有92位，只有92位！這一些很有經驗的人離職，新進來的心血還遠低於離職的人數。","有一個記者跑去臺中榮民總醫院嘉義分院採訪急診醫師，嘉義分院是中榮最大的分院，統計起來至少需要5個急診醫師，可是他們只有4個人，徵人啟事貼了五年都還沒有來，我想到你2月的時候有用特別預算去做一些解決，但是也有人提到是不是把醫師的診療費、診察費分出護理費來挖東牆、補西牆？請問這42億到底錢用到哪裡去？實際作為是什麼？為什麼我們現在的急診人力還在不斷地流失中？"],["邱部長泰源：42億的事情，等一下請業務單位健保署報告。我還是要講整體醫療體系的事情，急診醫師部分，數目是一件事情，但是每一個急診醫師都是非常優秀，也面臨很大壓力，一個一個都是我們想要照顧，也很心疼的醫師人力。","我最近也剛好回臺大，碰到急診部主任，他也是我的學生，我問他說，你們流失的狀況怎麼樣？他說有一位退休，一位想要到分院去。我問為什麼要到分院去？他說可能總院壓力比較大。但是勸說之下他是留下來。所以臺大主治醫師好像就是一個退休，一個本來要走，後來沒有離開，這大概是三天前我問的事情。當然我也希望所有的醫院真的要了解到急診……其實每一科都可能會有這種問題，所以我們必須要整體來思考這件事情，我不能說哪一科就比較嚴重……"],["陳委員菁徽：你可以整體思考，但是現在真的有一點危急，因為我5月的時候就提過臨時提案，面臨這個急診人力荒，到現在都還沒回應我，難道你們是想不出解決方案？","跟你講一個更嚴重的，除了急診，雲嘉南地區最近在網路上發生一些很大的事情，我剛講的是急診醫生，急診醫生還會出來講話，重症醫生有些是默默的就離開職場，他們處理最多醫療糾紛的事情，他們除了面臨職場的壓力，還要面臨網路上的霸凌，有一位神內醫師，他在網路上被霸凌的很嚴重，後來醫院經過了幾天站出來幫他講話。另外一位醫師很認真的請大家轉發，並且鼓勵投書The Lancet。真的很丟臉，以前人家說臺灣醫療崩壞不准寫到The Lancet，硬把這篇文章拉下來，還有一大堆側翼去攻擊寫文章的醫生。現在又有一個醫生站出來了，他說：「嘉長身為雲嘉南最後後送中心，因為本院神內嚴重的崩盤，為了保存本院重症人力，即日起實施：第一個，非適應症勿在此群組發文。第二個，無神經科人力，無法收治腦中風者，請直接聯絡他院急診轉院，勿在此群組發文。第三個，重症人力需用在刀口上，10pm到7am不再收治無明顯效應之轉診，以上措施非常抱歉，這是重症醫療崩盤的下下之策，感佩還願意留在最前線的各位，也希望帶回給各醫院高層與政府高層，正視腦中風醫療崩壞，善待願意留下來的各位！歡迎轉發！鼓勵投書The Lancet。」你剛剛講得很好，落實分級醫療，希望急重症的人都可以留任，你撥了42億說要鼓勵這些人留任，這些人現在直接在網路上說，拜託大家轉發，鼓勵投書The Lancet，你還要再把The Lancet文章拉下來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想這要分幾個方面來講，我剛才有提過，醫療體系真的要從根救起。第二個，臺灣健保30年讓我們臺灣窮人能夠得到很好的醫療，所以我們要珍惜，健保現在的總額就是這樣子，我們已經儘量做好，幾乎所有的科都會覺得比其他國家給付都來的低，這個我們真的要想辦法，我想政府也一直努力，所以今年才會補助這麼多公務的預算，也希望未來立法院這邊也能多多幫忙，讓健保的資源能夠更加充沛。我相信對於各給付……畢竟待遇還是很重要的事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道像署長本人也是急診科醫師出身，所以我真的希望你們好好的去盤點現在急重症的人力。"],["邱部長泰源：一定要的。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為他們已經在示警了，我不希望你們第三季、第四季又遇到相同的問題。最後一個，您出國的時候，大家都知道我們最大的教學醫院的聖堂，某一個科別從最基層的醫師到大教授，都出了性侵害、性騷擾等等事件，所以針對醫師法第二十五條，在這邊希望要求你們可以具體地把「違背醫學倫理」做函釋，最後公布在你們的法規檢索系統，請問可以答應嗎？因為上次次長來報告，他說正在跟每一個團體做討論跟研擬。"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們醫生就是不能違背醫療倫理，這是天經地義、不變的真理。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，你出國的時候，就是因為……"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，不管我出國或不出國，我跟王育敏委員在拚國際事情的時候，我還是關心國內任何的事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：你出國的時候，就是因為沒有根據醫師法第二十五條把他送懲戒，因為沒有寫清楚哪些狀況是有關「違背醫學倫理」的函釋，之後我會追這個進度，你們可不可以把……"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會趕快具體回應委員的詢問。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的詢答。","接下來請王育敏委員做詢答。","委員會公告，蘇清泉召委詢答結束後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b8445923745d550c201bcc5ba6a1b99ce3116a01e95dc6d29d716ba456fc9d313f45db15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:41:13 - 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那麼這個目的外的利用呢要限於是提升醫療品質 公共衛生 社會福利跟促進學術研究的發展為主那其他的話就是由這個各主管機關 那麼行政單位本於其法定職長或法律權責來使用"},{"start":257.116,"end":282.174,"text":"那健保資料庫對於犯罪者尤其是中國來講就是一個台灣人健康狀況的大數據了那透過人員或線上無所不用其極的想要獲取根據Checkpoint Research的統計2024年台灣每週就是我們的政府機關的部會的資料或者是企業的資料每週遭受3993次的一個網路攻擊"},{"start":285.197,"end":304.797,"text":"2025年增加到每週呢4152次部長立法前中國私下透過收買人員或網路供給來獲取資料那立法後如果沒有好好規劃將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得"},{"start":306.807,"end":324.517,"text":"會不會變成是這樣?我想我們在立法之前已經從各方面不管是資訊的保護這個都非常的都已經非常的嚴格的推展這個部分我相信比以前會這跟立法應該是另外一回事本來就應該要做好的事情"},{"start":326.858,"end":344.9,"text":"跟委員補充我們現在所有的資料利用的要在特定指定的空間它是一個隔離的環境所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果資料所以所有的個資或原始資料是不可能吸出的所以未來也是這樣嗎為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心"},{"start":347.202,"end":367.465,"text":"那本CV第九條針對於特定目的外利用的健保資料申請人設立機構必須要有境內登記並且境外不得同時設立或有正式非正式分支機構的禁制規定違反者要處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":368.185,"end":393.57,"text":"並得客處3000萬以下的罰金目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止而衛福部的回應主張是用道德勸說加上輕度的處罰的方式來避免資料濫用法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥可看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭炮打恐龍"},{"start":394.91,"end":402.298,"text":"你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果是天真還是規避責任啊所以想問部長跟委員報告 剛剛你特別提到所能吸出的只有統計之後的結果所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題"},{"start":415.819,"end":439.867,"text":"所以這個未來到底能不能完全確保這樣子的狀態因為我們有些國內也有些學校事實上是在國內有設可是他在中國也有設立學校這資料的如果事實上是對方的在該地的學校的人來這邊他以這邊的學校的名義來取資料進入到你們的系統你怎麼處理"},{"start":442.305,"end":470.359,"text":"這個分兩方面來報告你怎麼去審查 他都同樣某一個大學的 可是事實上是在中國進入這個部分 我想我們會做最好的一個防範那目前目前的做法是一定要到一個隔離的空間拿出來的資料是完全七四北八十 只是結果而已這個是非常的嚴格 這個我們這些人來做對 我說他都同樣是這個學校的 可是他是在對岸學校就是說跟對岸這個部分 當然我們"},{"start":471.118,"end":471.579,"text":"因為這是國內法,只有國內的學校機關可以申請"},{"start":480.201,"end":499.393,"text":"可是他也是在國內有啊如果至於他要合作那個有這個學校跟其他境外的我覺得這麼重要的法案你們素面報告竟然問A再答B不要用國內法的那個理由來推脫因為所有資料可能都是你是要尋國內"},{"start":501.954,"end":513.083,"text":"都是自國內法法的一個程序洩漏到國外的也不要用機關學校來推脫因為你們草案未來申請很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎"},{"start":517.886,"end":541.114,"text":"醫療機構醫院醫院醫療機構就是醫院跟學校啦研究學術單位像國衛院他們也可以那從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席草案的書面回應看起來本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理非常隱晦講得非常隱晦這樣的態度等於注定未來"},{"start":542.677,"end":563.789,"text":"沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制因為在以國家公共利益的目的為使用的原則底下仍然會產生學術產生的利益那這項利益只要歸政府所有便屬於公共的收入不需要再建立回饋金的制度把前置政府的左手轉到右手但是如果利益"},{"start":565.27,"end":579.58,"text":"歸屬於醫學中心學校研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有所以未來會不會有企業說我透過學術單位來做一些研究對藥的一些所以雖然要繳回那個回饋金"},{"start":581.041,"end":603.166,"text":"有什麼需要閃躲的所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下你們事實上是在用申請的當下而是未來因為這個資料而產研發出商品之後所以本席提出自申請日起15年內產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制這並不是阻礙申請審查好的資格"},{"start":604.646,"end":630.358,"text":"產品的研發你們書面報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應所以請問一下申請時如何預見利益我跟委員報告我們今天一個研究者不管你是在學術機構或者在醫療機構因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫現在是非常嚴格的第一個你必須要你本身的機構的IRB已經要通過"},{"start":632.375,"end":649.526,"text":"包括資金的 經費的當然你申請可是我取的健康資料我如果要研發要進那我們當然IRB就可是你現在是用現在來提但並不是預見未來的力量我們有很多把關好幾度的把關才會動到"},{"start":651.207,"end":674.81,"text":"幾乎才會動到可是這樣面對不可預見的也學術成功後所產生的利益你憑什麼要跟人家收取回饋金要收的事實上是看起來是有點手續費就一開始可是後邊你到底未來那個有沒有計算進去未來的一個利益回饋這個部分我們有做初步的說明就是"},{"start":675.811,"end":699.523,"text":"因為他有牽涉到比較複雜那第15條裡面吼那我們會那個的認定我們會有比例啦方式啦跟其他相關的事項的辦法我們會來訂辦法由主管機關來訂但是跟委員報告真的要申請到可以他可以去到那邊去拿資料那已經是經過學校經過申請的"},{"start":702.921,"end":728.827,"text":"補助的機關這已經都嚴格的審查而且拿到的比例很少所以已經都是精練過的然後在這邊在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關所以基本上它是我們這邊也鎖得非常的嚴密我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全最後想問你們所提供的資料雖然依法都去識別化可是你們能不能保證針對少數"},{"start":731.974,"end":747.631,"text":"也就是人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身份嗎你們未來怎麼去保證我們還是以最小階段我們提供這個研究的時候"},{"start":747.891,"end":765.831,"text":"他們要來申請案的時候我們會看他這個研究的目的跟他所使用要申請的資料之間的比例原則所以以最小提供單位為主那第二個呢還是提到我們出示的都是假名化之後的資料那麼沒有辦法再就是如果需要是串"},{"start":766.431,"end":781.376,"text":"串接資料的話都是事先處理好之後處理所以不會有這個原始資料的遺漏啦所以它都是只有在這個現場統計完之後把這個統計結果吸出而已那罕病就是比較人數比較少嘛"},{"start":782.116,"end":806.836,"text":"但是他還是有需要有一些譬如說有一些用藥你還是要他就是喊病你要知道他的這個效果怎麼樣他的特性怎麼樣那這個還是會用到不過都是以最小使用範圍然後最高度的一個是事前同意一個是進行中告知一個是最後他如果進行中他要退出的話"},{"start":807.335,"end":812.498,"text":"我覺得要有 被保險人應該要有這樣的一個權利以上 謝謝應該是這樣 謝謝我們可以這樣來演繹 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":292,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時41分）麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。民國111年憲判字第13號判決已經指出，現行健保資料基於醫療、衛生或犯罪預防，還有國家公共利益之目的使用，且資料要經過去識別化，所以事實上是合憲的。至於欠缺個資保護的獨立監督、欠缺相關組織上及程序上的監督防護機制，以及欠缺當事人得請求停止利用之相關規定，看起來事實上是違憲的，而且要在3年內，也就是今年的8月11號之前要立法補強，這是制定全民健康保險資料條例的一個原因所在。","部長，依據公務機關依法行政的習慣，在立法之前，資料申請許可上勢必相對保守，因為沒有人負得起責任，可是一旦通過立法，則意味開放，因此立法必須要謹慎，尤其在保護制度上，據憲判字第13號判決與個人資料保護法的第六條第一項第四款去識別化的規定，本席認為，健保資料的使用必須以國家公共利益目的原則為基礎，並在這個原則底下去制定管理規則，這個部長應該同意吧？"],["邱部長泰源：同意。"],["林委員月琴：現行有衛福部衛生福利資料科學中心跟健保署資訊整合應用服務中心受理健保資料申請使用，衛生福利資料科學中心提供死亡檔跟癌登資料的申請，可串聯其他系統，1年300件；健保署資訊整合應用服務中心提供醫療影像、檢驗檢查資料，特定範圍的非結構性資料比較新，1年23件；臺灣是個學術研究發達的國家，這樣的數量並不多，預估通過後數量就會加倍。所以想問部長，學術研究的定義很廣泛，可是實際上健保資料應該是不容易申請的，請問過去提出申請的單位多為學校、醫學中心，未來你預計開放的對象有哪些？"],["邱部長泰源：我想開放的對象跟現在相同，因為這是國內法，所以要限制國內的機關……"],["林委員月琴：所以一樣嗎？必須是學校跟醫學中心才可以用嗎？本席想得到一個確切的答案。"],["邱部長泰源：醫院跟學術研究系統。"],["林委員月琴：這兩個嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員月琴：可是學術研究並不等於具備國家公共利益，因為特定的政策所提出的研究較容易認定，與政策沒有直接關係的研究案，你們的審查標準是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是要對醫藥的發展、公共衛生……我們在第六條已經有明定它的目的。"],["林委員月琴：有講清楚、說明白嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是請署長？"],["林委員月琴：來，麻煩署長。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們在第八條有明定，申請特定目的外利用健保資料，限以提升醫療品質、公共衛生、社會福利及促進學術研究發展為主，其他就是由各主管機關及行政單位本於其法定職掌或法律權責來使用。"],["林委員月琴：好，健保資料庫對於犯罪者，尤其是中國來講，就是一個臺灣人健康狀況的大數據，透過人員或線上無所不用其極地想要獲取。根據Check Point Research的統計，2024年我們政府機關的部會資料或企業資料，每週遭受3,993次網路攻擊，2025年增加到每週4,152次。部長，立法前，中國私下透過收買人員或網路攻擊來獲取資料；立法後，如果沒有好好規劃，將更方便犯罪者透過學校跟醫學中心研究單位取得，會不會變成這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們在立法之前從各方面，不管是資訊的保護，都已經非常地嚴格在推展，這部分我相信比以前會……這跟立法應該是另外一回事，本來就應該要做好的事情。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員補充，我們現在所有的資料利用，要在特定指定的空間，它是一個隔離的環境，所能攜出的只有統計之後的結果資料，所以所有個資或原始資料是不可能攜出。"],["林委員月琴：所以未來也是這樣？"],["石署長崇良：對，也是這樣。"],["林委員月琴：為什麼我們會有這麼多的擔心？本席於第九條，針對於特定目的外利用健保資料的申請人，設立機構必須要有境內登記，並且境外不得同時設立或有正式、非正式分支機構的禁制規定，違反者要處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑，並得科處3,000萬以下罰金，目的是在針對申請人資格要做嚴格的禁止，而衛福部的回應是主張用道德勸說，加上輕度處罰的方式來避免資料濫用，法律的比例原則強調不要用大炮打小鳥，可是看起來衛福部事實上是用鞭砲打恐龍，你們憑什麼覺得自己提出的草案有遏止資料外洩到境外的效果？是天真還是規避責任？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，剛剛有特別提到，所能攜出的資料只有統計之後的結果，所以並沒有涉及到資料傳輸或釋出的問題。"],["林委員月琴：到底未來能不能完全確保這樣的狀態？因為我們有些國內學校，在中國也有設立學校，如果事實上對方是該地學校的人來這邊，他以國內的學校名義來取資料，進入到你們的系統，你怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：這個分兩方面來報告……"],["林委員月琴：你怎麼去審查？他同樣是某一個大學的人，可是事實上是在中國……"],["邱部長泰源：資訊侵入這個部分，我想我們會做最好的防範，以目前的作法是一定要到一個隔離的空間，查出來的資料是完全去識別化，只是結果而已，這是非常地嚴格，我們這些年來做……"],["林委員月琴：他同樣是這所學校的人，可是他是在對岸……"],["邱部長泰源：學校是不是跟對岸有關這個部分，當然我們大家可以來……因為這是國內法，只有國內的學校機關可以申請。"],["林委員月琴：可是它也是在國內有啊！"],["邱部長泰源：至於要核……有國內的學校跟其他境外的學校有合作……"],["林委員月琴：我覺得這麼重要的法案，你們書面報告竟然問A答B，不要用國內法的理由來推托，因為所有資料可能都是……你是要循國內……都是自國內法的一個程序洩漏到國外的，也不要用機關、學校來推托，因為你們的草案未來申請者，很確定真的只有機關跟學校嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：還有醫院……"],["石署長崇良：醫療機構，就是醫院跟學術研究單位等。"],["林委員月琴：從衛福部的草案跟衛福部對本席提案的回應看起來，本席認為你們對處理學術研究產生的利益的處理講得非常隱晦，這樣的態度等於注定未來沒有辦法有效管理回饋機制，因為在以國家公共利益目的為使用的原則底下，仍然會有學術產生的利益，這項利益只要歸政府所有，便屬於公共的收入，不需要再建立回饋金的制度，把錢自政府的左手轉到右手，但是如果利益歸屬於醫學中心、學校、研究單位或這些單位配合的企業所有，未來會不會有企業是透過學術單位來做一些對藥的研究？雖然要繳回回饋金，但這有什麼需要閃躲的？所以利益的產生多半不是在申請的當下，事實上你們是用申請的當下，而是在未來因為這個資料而研發出商品之後，所以本席提出自申請日起15年內，產生利益要繳回回饋金的機制，這並不是阻礙申請審查的資格、產品的研發，你們的報告還是沒有針對這個去做回應，所以請問一下，申請時如何預見利益？"],["邱部長泰源：我跟委員報告，今天一個研究者，不管是在學術機構或醫療機構，因為我也做了40年的國科會計畫，現在是非常嚴格的，第一個，必須是本身機構的IRB一定要通過，包括資金的經費……當然你申請……"],["林委員月琴：可是我取得健康資料，如果要研發藥劑呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然IRB就是說……"],["林委員月琴：可是你是用現在來計算，並不是預見未來的利益。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有很多把關，好幾度的把關幾乎才會動到健保的資料……"],["林委員月琴：可是面對這種不可預見的在學術成功後所產生的利益，你憑什麼要收取回饋金？事實上要收的看起來有點像是一開始的手續費，可是未來後邊的利益，你到底有沒有計算進去？"],["邱部長泰源：未來利益回饋的部分，我們有做初步的說明，因為它牽涉到比較複雜，第十五條的規定有關回饋金之一定比率、方式跟其他相關事項的辦法，由主管機關定之。"],["林委員月琴：最後……"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，他真的申請到可以去那邊拿資料，那已經是經過學校、申請補助的機關都嚴格的審查，而且拿到的比例很少，所以這已經都是精煉過的，在健保署又有這樣的一個機制來把關，基本上我們系統也鎖得非常嚴密，所以我想這個部分應該是可以保護個人的資料跟安全。"],["林委員月琴：好，最後想問，你們所提供的資料，雖然依法都去識別化，可是你們能保證針對人數比較少的罕見疾病被保險人，其資料不會因為交叉比對而洩漏保險人的身分嗎？你們未來怎麼去保證？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們還是以最小揭露為主，我們提供相關資料供研究的時候，在他們來申請的時候，我們會看他的研究目的跟所要申請的使用資料之間的比例原則，所以以最小提供單位為主。第二個，還是要提到，我們出示的都是假名化後的資料，如果需要串接資料的話，都是事先處理好之後再提供，不會有原始資料的洩漏，所以都只有他在現場統計完之後，把統計結果攜出而已。"],["林委員月琴：罕病就是人數比較少嘛，所以還是希望……"],["石署長崇良：但是還是需要有一些……比如有一些罕病用藥，你要知道它的效果怎麼樣、特性怎麼樣，還是會用到，不過都是以最小使用範圍，然後最高度的……"],["林委員月琴：在這邊我還是要強調，一個是事前同意、一個是進行中告知、一個是進行中最後他要退出的話，我覺得被保險人應該要有這樣的權利，以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，應該是這樣，我們會這樣來研議，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員的詢答。","接下來請陳菁徽委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}},{"id":"162330","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b844592b280ae6385188622ba6a1b99ce3116a01e95dc6d29d716baf89052436b86d4f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:26:46 - 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署長早COVID快篩的證照是你在管理的那羅一鈞副署長對這個媒體表示部分醫事藥師認為國內對於開篩效期的建立比較嚴格生產後一年半到兩年就被界定為介效日期但是像美國等國家都有展延的效期甚至到兩三年所以如果國內快篩已經過期但在半年到一年當中其可信度還是可以參考的我想請教江署長你對羅副署長這段發言的評論是支持還是不支持"},{"start":46.932,"end":68.22,"text":"就請你不要講他就支持還不支持換委員那個義軍他很認真講他說官方很難請說要快篩過期講官方應該是講食藥署食藥署針對所有的醫療器材你支持他這個說法嗎就是說他覺得再過半年到一年可以嗎醫療器材的使用都有他使用期限這是第一個要跟委員做報告"},{"start":70.04,"end":79.725,"text":"第二個部分其實特別要去做說明的地方是因為缺效這件事情大概都有已經有科學定下來的你先開始講不科學的東西好了 請停一下署長 我相信連美國這個延長兩三年這個都是要經過審查確認的藥劑不是 你要寫日期在那個地方你要再繼續確認是OK的有個審查的過程才是準不是說你直接說過期了可以繼續使用"},{"start":97.935,"end":113.544,"text":"這個如果副署長如媒體所講的這個言論是有問題的但你身為主管機關你不用出來糾正羅署長這種不合乎醫藥安全及法規的發言嗎你可以自由發言說這個效期過了半年一年都還有效嗎你沒有出來糾正嗎你不用公開再補充說明嗎"},{"start":115.485,"end":124.372,"text":"跟委員稍微補充一下我現在一個禮拜159萬已經補滿了所以現在都會是合格的但是缺貨基本上也還在遵守科學的道理很簡單你沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK對不對醫學的倫理是這樣沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK而不是說你沒有證明它不OK就當作OK這個是Alpha error跟Beta error你懂的啊"},{"start":140.567,"end":147.813,"text":"以後還是請指要署要出來發言不是直接讓他過期然後就說好可以繼續用可以繼續用好嗎缺就承認嘛缺就承認大家先用也許之後再來補一次也是可以嘛謝謝委員好謝謝組長麻煩部長"},{"start":158.629,"end":165.593,"text":"部長前主密涉嫌將健保個資包括勤職人員販售給中國13年洗錢超過10億這件事情是非常的嚴重那代表不是說只有個人犯罪而且是健保資料查詢全線的控管異常的偵測治安安全制度全線失守"},{"start":176.96,"end":193.987,"text":"所以這次立法我確實應該要把這個制度要補起來但目前你送出來的法案版本第20條跟21條就是說牽涉這樣的犯罪處罰才一年以上七年以下如果涉有危害國家安全是三年以上十年以下我先請教部長你認為這樣的刑法夠嗎我想這個罰則都是有經過你一定同意的吧因為這個不然你不會送出來吧"},{"start":205.114,"end":217.042,"text":"你覺得這樣罰則夠嗎 共點他把資料賣到中國去欸這個這個等一下我們好好來想這個罰則夠不夠我根據草案 他有根據的我要請教你有關退出權的問題退出權這個應該要很明確而且容易操作的機制目前是說書面那未來是會有規劃那個線上處理嗎線上申請退出權嗎有或沒有就可以 就是目前是書面嘛"},{"start":235.246,"end":237.576,"text":"目前這個方向當然是在"},{"start":239.335,"end":248.438,"text":"在整個操作上面我們當然從這個方向來但是現在目前還是現在書面而已我再問說你這個退出權很重要嘛退出權就是讓他能夠方便嘛不是成了這個障礙這是第一個希望未來會規劃更方便的方式第二個這個範圍退出範圍的選項你夠不夠細緻譬如說民眾可不可以說我只選擇要退出住院那我門診我OK有沒有辦法做這樣的選擇"},{"start":267.584,"end":275.207,"text":"這個我們在授權的辦法會去詳細來處理這個是目前請署長稍微進一步說明一下如果你有稍微細緻一點對不對退出的部分我可以挑嗎跟委員報告我們在第17條有一個授權法規就那個退出的資料的類別範圍都可以做那個執法的規範所以我們可以去區分那監保署會不會主動通知這是最重要主動通知民眾說你有退出權可行時他會告訴你嗎"},{"start":296.575,"end":313.501,"text":"呃我們是這個原則上是這個法規通過之後的那個實施日期啦大家看報紙嗎看媒體嗎那當然我們會正式有一些公告那如果委員覺得需要有一定的時間讓民眾都呃理解的話立法的精神在這裡嗎"},{"start":314.201,"end":329.13,"text":"可以有一個冷凍期來做為讓大家來行使權利那請署長再思考這個部分那另外對於部長對查詢行為的監控跟異常預警的機制業主命能夠三人如入無人之境他調取資料然後轉存然後帶出去那表示說健保署內部根本查不到誰查了這個資料事後也無從這個集合啊"},{"start":337.575,"end":358.069,"text":"那你將來你要怎麼去避免呢 你一個健保資料諮議會 就是剛剛我談到的這個第一個諮議會是任務編組 諮詢編組 請問諮議會有沒有資料調查權跟他的建議權有沒有約束力有沒有 你目前的 他是個諮詢慶祝任務編組有沒有約束力 他有沒有資料調查權"},{"start":359.571,"end":365.612,"text":"你現在的設計呢?我想我們在這申請資料進來就有審查小組,這個審查小組就比較屬於專業那有爭議的部分才到執議會去解決但是前面的審議小組就很嚴格,它有裡面的24個專家學者大家都會認真工作,但是還是要有一個相對的監督機制嘛請問執議會的運作是不是透明?"},{"start":384.736,"end":392.481,"text":"他會不會公開會議記錄議題的審查因為這些都攸關整個社會對於這項制度的一個信任度啊那製衣會將來要怎麼做你們有擬出這些辦法嗎"},{"start":397.011,"end":404.978,"text":"好 我們他的 我們這位授權法規來他現在就是任務編組嘛 他這是諮詢性質嘛我也參加過很多這種諮詢委員會嘛到最後決定的就是健保署嘛 衛福部嘛所以這個東西為什麼剛剛我在指裡讀一遍就是基本上你這個東西都要寫清楚 法庭都要指標"},{"start":419.432,"end":424.74,"text":"因為申請的案很多啦所以不可能一直開一直開沒案足案的話那可能真的是會開不完啦"},{"start":435.092,"end":462.51,"text":"審查小組就會扮演他的審查的責任那質疑在這裡是比較困難比較有矛盾或者是審查的結果需要去確認為什麼我認為質疑會沒有獨立性當初法院的違憲的判決憲法法庭說主管機關對人民各自的使用應該要建立獨立監督機制但目前草案中的監保資料質疑會的設計根本就沒有獨立性更不要說監督的效能"},{"start":462.97,"end":474.374,"text":"那部長這個草案中的質疑委它是隸屬於主管機關啊是威福部跟健保署啊根本沒有獨立性啊所以我才會說它是送一個違憲的一個版本到立法院啊屬於你它有什麼獨立性啊就聽你的啊"},{"start":479.707,"end":496.493,"text":"我跟你講署長我也要跟你講這個健保商包括製衣小組我們開會也不是逐字稿會後怎麼整理也是由聖保署來處理我常常覺得討論的氛圍跟最後的會議紀錄是不一樣的名單也不敢公佈因為就是專家為名單也不敢公佈"},{"start":497.193,"end":502.779,"text":"包括這個科技評估你很多的財務衝擊多少人數官方也不一樣官方是這樣子然後藥廠是這樣然後學會是這樣都不一樣但是還是官方說了算嘛為什麼它隸屬於你嘛我是舉例給大家聽這個沒有獨立性啦這個東西我在裡面太久了我要告訴大家我看到的是這個問題"},{"start":517.074,"end":524.618,"text":"那不用說你們今天送來條例整個內部都在處理目的外的利用跟管理這跟憲法判決的主義違背大法官2022年就告訴你們說這個現在的規定對於健保資料庫存處理對外傳輸以及對外這個提供利用的主體目的要件範圍等都沒有明確的規定這是你送來的草案也沒有處理這個問題嘛所以我才想到說這是一個違憲的版本嘛所以我剛剛也才提到說在個人資料保護法"},{"start":546.989,"end":556.56,"text":"以及個人資料保護委員會,這兩大法都沒有處理確定之前,你現在立這個法是根本就不該嘛,還是違憲嘛,不然為什麼要勞動大法官來釋憲呢?我們就是因為這個憲判他說不明確,所以我們這個法就讓他明確"},{"start":565.703,"end":586.389,"text":"所以來解決這個宪判的問題請你們也想想看我今天談的話我們都可以在後續提供寶貴的意見我想要講的就是說醫藥品查驗中心健康自身證跟醫療科技評估中心過去長期都在使用健保資料庫那你覺得現在是合理合法的嗎合法使用嗎"},{"start":587.029,"end":606.648,"text":"這個是合法使用 第一個我們目前在健保法裡面就有醫療科技評估這個要求那第二個它所使用的都是去識別化的資料因為它主要是在流行病學上那我想請問2022年既然憲法法庭做出了這個判決之後你有做任何修正嗎"},{"start":608.791,"end":617.611,"text":"您說的是哪一方面的修改我不知道你要怎麼管理啊因為你以前是健保法現在有個憲法的敘現在這個地方啊"},{"start":619.091,"end":638.479,"text":"第一個是這個管理條例就是一個方面第二個我們也提出了行政法人讓HTA由國家的科技評估中心的條例的草案我們現在也在行政院審查中"},{"start":638.899,"end":660.089,"text":"在速度當中你知道這個問題很大嘛已經進行了這麼多年嘛我今天真的是就法論法啦那根據我們辦公室部長根據我們辦公室掌握資料健保署跟部分的這個企業簽訂MOU其中涉及健保資料的研究運用合作有的還提到資料分析跟某些疾病的成效我想請問這些MOU是否已經涉及實質上的提供"},{"start":660.729,"end":675.725,"text":"分析或協助使用健保資料庫的內容如果是健保署這樣行為合法嗎有什麼依據部長根據我們了解健保署跟教廠簽的MOU有送到衛福部衛福部都退回了部長你覺得這個事情"},{"start":677.827,"end":686.691,"text":"跟委員報告目前沒有涉及到健保資料的使用是提供技術的資料在我們的健保署裡面在分析我們是在內部的使用並沒有對外提供"},{"start":699.757,"end":718.881,"text":"你跟人家簽MOU啊 一再的退回MOU的內容非常的廣泛我會跟你要MOU的內容你還在持續跟不同人簽為什麼有這麼急嗎就是你有這個法座依據才開始去簽我知道你的個性 我知道你做事很認真就是說基本上很注重效率但是這樣子的做法等於說根據這次我們要審的全民健保的資料管理條例本來是為了落實憲法法庭的判決"},{"start":725.843,"end":742.248,"text":"才來回應社會對這個各自的期待但從目前這個健保署的做法來看當然產生質疑啊你先跟產業界建立合作架構然後釋出已經釋出那個健保資料沒有釋出健保資料再次跟委員然後才用專法來補救沒有沒有"},{"start":743.812,"end":750.818,"text":"我想署長已經講得很清楚了,我們部裡面也會跟他主導的很清楚我要講一下Real World Data,這個資料庫我有四部,最後我要講四部這個國人的資料,它不屬於國家"},{"start":761.127,"end":787.124,"text":"不屬於衛福部不屬於健保也不是任何人可以使用的這個就是一個非常重要一個個人資料權的建立這是個旅程碑是個非常重要的旅程碑所以我今天這個談的東西也請兩位首長要好好思考然後我需要看那個MOU請送到那個看委員會或辦公室來了解我們所有MOU都展示公開展示在我們的健保的公開空間隨時歡迎那個委員來辦公室查閱"},{"start":788.064,"end":805.252,"text":"為什麼到辦公室 你不能送過來嗎今天沒有這個法我們現在都公開所有的人都可以看到而不是只有委員可以看得到那為什麼外服部一再退回呢外服部一直退回啊只是修正文字而已啊一直退回啊 但是你還是照跑啊"},{"start":807.27,"end":821.738,"text":"是修正文字啦衛福部還有很多部門會針對這個把它處理得更文字上更好不是退回喔 是補充意見但是該堅守的一個規定還是一定堅守的我是希望你們不要先設建畫榜就是今天你要做一些"},{"start":822.598,"end":844.961,"text":"資料的運用但是今天我們對這個資料利用的這個法有憲法判決之後我們要做的一個精神還沒有立好還沒有處理好不要先去跑我知道這個當然工作效率等等未來的使用我自己都非常支持這個資料的分析跟聊一下這個很重要這對於我們的醫療創新非常重要但是這個法還是要守嘛還是要守嘛好謝謝兩位署長謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時26分）我先請食藥署姜署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，請姜署長。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長早。COVID快篩的證照是你在管理的，羅一鈞副署長對媒體表示：部分醫師、藥師認為國內對於快篩效期的界定比較嚴格，生產後一年半到兩年就被界定為屆效日期，但是像美國等國家都有在展延效期，甚至到兩、三年的都有，所以如果國內快篩已經過期，但還在半年到一年當中，其可信度還是可以參考的。我想請教姜署長，你對羅副署長這段發言的評論是支持還是不支持？請你不要講太多，是支持還是不支持？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，一鈞他很認真講，他說官方很難叫大家用過期快篩，官方應該是指食藥署，食藥署針對所有的醫療器材使用……"],["陳委員昭姿：你支持他這個說法嗎？就是他覺得再過半年到一年可以嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：醫療器材的使用都有它的使用期限，這是第一個要跟委員做報告的。"],["陳委員昭姿：當然是這樣啊！"],["姜署長至剛：第二個部分，其實特別要去做說明的是……"],["陳委員昭姿：什麼時候可以展延？"],["姜署長至剛：確效時間大概都有經過科學定下來……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，署長，你開始講不科學的東西，請停一下。署長，我相信美國延長兩、三年都是要經過審查確認的，你有寫日期在那個地方，你要再繼續確認是OK的，有一個審查的過程，不是說你直接說過期了可以繼續使用，如果副署長真如媒體所講的，這個言論是有問題的，你身為主管機關，不用出來糾正羅副署長這種不合乎醫藥安全及法規的發言嗎？你可以自由發言說這個效期過了半年、一年都還有效嗎？你沒有出來糾正嗎？你不用公開再補充說明嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員稍微補充一下，我們現在一個禮拜159萬劑已經補滿了，所以現在都會是合格的……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是缺貨基本上也還是要遵守……科學的道理很簡單……"],["姜署長至剛：同意、同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：你沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK，對不對？醫學的倫理是這樣，沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK，而不是說你沒有證明它不OK就當作OK，這個是alpha error跟beta error，你懂的啊！"],["姜署長至剛：對，這個是Type I跟Type II error……"],["陳委員昭姿：以後還是請食藥署要出來發言，不是直接讓它過期，然後就說「好，可以繼續用、可以繼續用」，好嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：一定記得、一定記得。"],["陳委員昭姿：缺藥就承認嘛，大家先用，也許之後再來補一次也是可以嘛。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝署長。好，麻煩部長。部長，前主秘涉嫌將健保個資包括情治人員資料販售給中國13年，洗錢超過10億，這件事情是非常嚴重的，代表的不只是個人犯罪，而是健保資料查詢、權限控管、異常偵測、資安制度全線失守了，所以這次立法確實應該要把這個制度漏洞補起來，但目前你送出來的法案版本第二十條跟第二十一條，牽涉到這樣的犯罪的處罰才一年以上七年以下，如果涉有危害國家安全是處三年以上十年以下。我先請教部長，你認為這樣的刑罰夠嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個罰則都是有經過……"],["陳委員昭姿：你一定同意的吧！不然你不會送出來吧！你覺得這樣的罰則夠嗎？共諜把資料賣到中國，等一下我們好好來想這個罰則夠不夠。"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個都可以討論，這是有根據的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我要請教你有關退出權的問題，退出權應該要有很明確而且容易操作的機制，目前是說書面，未來會規劃線上處理、線上申請退出權嗎？回答有或沒有就可以了，目前是書面嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：在整個操作上面，我們當然會往這個方向來努力，但是目前還是書面而已。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道，我在問的是這個退出權很重要，退出權就是要讓他能夠方便，而不是有層層障礙，這是第一個，希望未來會規劃更方便的方式。第二個，退出範圍選項夠不夠細緻？譬如說，民眾可不可以只選擇要退出住院，但門診我OK，有沒有辦法做這樣的選擇？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們在授權的辦法會詳細來處理……"],["陳委員昭姿：署長在點頭，署長說可以，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：這個是不是請署長稍微進一步說明一下？"],["陳委員昭姿：如果你有稍微細緻一點，退出的部分我可以挑嘛。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們在第十七條有一個授權法規，就退出資料的類別、範圍，都可以做子法的規範，所以我們可以去區分，沒有問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝署長。健保署會不會主動通知，這是最重要的，就是主動通知民眾有退出權可行使，你會跟他說嗎？"],["石署長崇良：我們原則上是這個法規通過之後的實施日期……"],["陳委員昭姿：大家看報紙嗎？看媒體嗎？"],["石署長崇良：當然我們會有一些正式的公告，如果委員覺得需要有一定的時間讓民眾都理解的話，可以……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是立法的精神。"],["石署長崇良：可以有一個冷凍期，讓大家來行使權利。"],["陳委員昭姿：請署長再思考這個部分。另外，部長，對於查詢行為的監控跟異常預警機制，葉主秘能夠13年如入無人之境的調取資料，然後轉存、帶出去，那表示健保署內部根本查不到誰查了這個資料，事後也無從稽核，將來你要怎麼去避免這部分？","關於健保資料諮議會，就是剛剛我談到的，第一個，諮議會是任務編組、諮詢性質，請問諮議會有沒有資料調查權？它的建議權有沒有約束力？有沒有？目前它是一個諮詢性質、任務編組，有沒有約束力？它有沒有資料調查權？你現在的設計呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們在申請資料進來就有審查小組，這個審查小組就比較屬於專業，有爭議的部分才會到諮議會，有爭議的時候才到諮議會去解決，但是前面的審議小組就很嚴格，裡面有24個專家學者，包括……"],["陳委員昭姿：大家都會認真工作，但是還是要有個相對的監督機制。"],["邱部長泰源：一定有。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問諮議會的運作是不是透明？會不會公開會議紀錄、議題的審查情形？因為這些都攸關整個社會對於這項制度的信任度，諮議會將來要怎麼做？你們有擬出這些辦法嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會授權法規來定之。"],["陳委員昭姿：它現在就是任務編組、諮詢性質，我也參加過很多這種諮詢委員會，到最後決定的都是健保署、衛福部，所以為什麼剛剛我在質疑獨立性？基本上，這個東西都要寫清楚……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個大概……"],["陳委員昭姿：法庭都要直播、都要透明了。"],["邱部長泰源：因為申請的案很多，包括那個……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是基本精神，跟多少……"],["邱部長泰源：所以不可能諮議會一直開、一直開、一直開，每一案、逐案的話，可能真的是會開不完啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這樣講話不行啦！開不完……"],["邱部長泰源：審查小組就會扮演它的審查責任了，在諮議會這裡的是比較困難、比較有矛盾，或者是審查的結果需要去確認的。"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼我認為諮議會沒有獨立性？當初憲法法庭說，主管機關對於人民個資的使用，應該要建立獨立監督機制，但目前草案中的健保資料諮議會的設計根本就沒有獨立性，更不要說監督的效能。部長，這個草案中的諮議會是隸屬於主管機關衛福部、健保署，根本沒有獨立性啊！所以我才會說是送一個違憲的版本到立法院，若隸屬於你，它有什麼獨立性？就是聽你的啊！我跟你講，署長，我也要跟你講，這個健保……包括諮議小組，開會也不是逐字稿，會後怎麼整理也是由健保署來處理，我常常覺得討論的氛圍跟最後的會議紀錄是不一樣的，名單也不敢公布，就是專家委員的名單也不敢公布，包括醫療科技評估，像財務、衝擊、多少人數等等，官方也不一樣，官方是這樣子，藥廠是這樣，然後學會是這樣，都不一樣，但還是官方說了算，為什麼？因為它隸屬於你嘛！我是舉例給大家聽，這個沒有獨立性，我在裡面太久了，我要告訴大家，我看到的是這個問題。不用說你們今天送來的條例，整個內部都在處理目的外的利用跟管理，這跟憲法判決的決議違背，大法官2022年就告訴你們，現在的規定對於健保資料庫儲存、處理、對外傳輸及對外提供利用之主體、目的、要件、範圍等都沒有明確規定，這次你送來的草案也沒有處理這個問題，所以我才說這是一個違憲的版本。我剛剛也才提到，在個人資料保護法以及個人資料保護委員會這兩大部分都沒有處理確定之前，你現在立這個法根本就不該，還是違憲，不然為什麼要勞動大法官來釋憲呢？我的意思是這樣。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們就是因為憲判說不明確，所以我們這個法就要讓它明確，就是要來解決這個憲判的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長、署長，請你們也想想看我今天談的話，我今天真的是就法論法。"],["邱部長泰源：我們都可以在後續請委員提供寶貴的意見。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。接下來，署長，我想要講的是醫藥品查驗中心健康政策與醫療科技評估中心過去長期都在使用健保資料庫，你覺得現在是合理合法的嗎？是合法使用嗎？"],["石署長崇良：是，這個是合法使用。第一個，目前在健保法裡面就有醫療科技評估這個要求。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，健保法。"],["石署長崇良：第二個，它所使用的都是去識別化的資料，因為它主要是就流行病學上……"],["陳委員昭姿：你是用健保法，那我想請問，2022年既然憲法法庭做出這個判決之後，你有做任何修正嗎？"],["石署長崇良：您說的是哪一方面的修改？"],["陳委員昭姿：我不知道你要怎麼管理，因為原先是依據健保法，但現在有一個釋憲在這個地方啊！你覺得OK嗎？都不用改嗎？"],["石署長崇良：第一個，這個管理條例是一個方面。"],["陳委員昭姿：它是一個獨立的基金會。"],["石署長崇良：第二個，我們也提出了行政法人讓HTA由國家科技評估中心的條例草案，現在也在行政院審查中。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，在過渡當中你知道這個問題很大，已經進行了這麼多年，我今天真的是就法論法。","部長，根據我們辦公室掌握的資料，健保署跟部分企業簽訂MOU，其中涉及健保資料的研究應用合作，有的還提到資料分析跟某些疾病的成效，我想請問這些MOU是否已經涉及實質上的提供分析或協助使用健保資料庫的內容？如果是，健保署這樣的行為合法嗎？有什麼依據？部長，根據我們了解，健保署跟藥廠簽的MOU有送到衛福部，衛福部都退回了，部長，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，目前沒有涉及到健保資料的使用，是提供技術的支援，在我們健保署裡面分析。"],["陳委員昭姿：都提到資料分析跟療效，疾病的成效評估。部長，這是不是表示你默許呢？你退回了，但是他們繼續跑，是不是表示你在默許呢？署長，你明知道部不同意……"],["石署長崇良：我們是在內部的使用，並沒有對外提供。"],["陳委員昭姿：你跟人家簽MOU，一再的退回……"],["石署長崇良：MOU的內容非常的廣泛，不是這樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：我會跟你要MOU的內容。"],["石署長崇良：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：你還在持續跟部……為什麼？有這麼急嗎？你有這個法做依據才開始去簽，我知道你的個性，我知道你做事很認真，基本上很注重效率，但是這樣子的作法，根據這次我們要審的全民健保資料管理條例，本來是為了落實憲法法庭的判決，才來回應社會對個資的期待，但從目前健保署的作法來看，讓人產生質疑，你先跟產業界建立合作架構，然後已經直接釋出健保資料讓它去用……"],["石署長崇良：我沒有釋出健保資料，再次跟委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：然後才用專法來補救。"],["石署長崇良：沒有、沒有，完全是……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想署長已經講得很清楚了，我們部裡面也會督導得很清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：你沒有法源依據在做MOU的處理，我要講一下關於Real World Data資料庫，我有四不，那就是：國人的資料不屬於國家，個人資料不屬於衛福部、不屬於健保署，也不是任何人可以使用的；這就是一個非常重要的個人資料權的建立，這是個里程碑，這個是非常重要的里程碑。所以我今天談的東西也請兩位首長要好好思考，然後我需要看MOU，請送到委員會和辦公室。"],["石署長崇良：我們所有MOU都公開展示在我們的健保公開空間，隨時歡迎委員來辦公室查閱。"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼要到辦公室？你不能送過來嗎？今天沒有這個法……"],["石署長崇良：我們也可以提，沒有問題啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：今天你再補這個法……"],["石署長崇良：我們現在都公開，所有人都可以看到，而不是只有委員可以看得到，我們是公開的。"],["陳委員昭姿：那為什麼衛福部一再退回呢？為什麼衛福部一再退回呢？衛福部一直退回這個MOU啊！"],["石署長崇良：只是修正文字而已啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：一直退回，但你還是照跑啊！"],["石署長崇良：是修正文字。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我今天是就法論法。"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部還有很多部門會針對這個將文字上處理得更好，不是退回，而是補充意見，但是該堅守的規定還是一定堅守。"],["陳委員昭姿：我是希望你們不要先射箭再畫靶，今天你要做一些資料的運用，但是我們對於資料利用的法，由憲法判決之後我們要做的精神還沒有立好、還沒有處理好，不要先去跑，我知道當然是因為工作效率等等……未來的使用……我自己都非常支持資料的分析跟療效評估，這個很重要，這對於我們的醫療創新非常重要，但是這個法還是要守嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝兩位首長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。請部長跟署長有空再跟陳委員說明一下。獨立性、獨立性、獨立性！很重要，所以念三次；那個資料還不能出去、不能出去、不能出去！一出去，署長就要移送法辦了。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-16","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","王正旭","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","廖偉翔","楊曜","翁曉玲","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-09"],"gazette_id":"1145902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145902_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案；二、委員林月琴等 21 人擬具\n「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1145902_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}