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謝謝跟戰略規劃司司長請司長 謝謝陳委員好部長好"},{"start":13.578,"end":42.772,"text":"部長其實最近有很多外媒不斷地在針對我們的無人載具的配置跟我們的戰略目標來做討論我想請教一下因為我們現在不是只是為了中國有所以我們也要有中國有無人機中國有大型的無人機中國的海面上的無人載具具備垂直的發射飛彈的能力所以我們也要有應該不是這樣子的戰略吧"},{"start":43.072,"end":64.858,"text":"我們現在的作戰想定我們的戰略目標是什麼?我們的無人載具作戰的構想,我們的主要的戰略目標是什麼?我想我們無人機作戰的這個運用參考這個俄烏戰爭的經驗的實力跟我想已經三軍部隊有在執行這個我們整個防衛作戰兵力結構調整的"},{"start":66.499,"end":75.202,"text":"一個計畫,那我們會建置無人機站的部隊,部隊也會有無人機的配置,朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":76.178,"end":103.689,"text":"我剛剛講戰略目標是說是以防守為主來去拒止中國的登陸為主還是有主要是要用什麼樣的方式來去確保說我們不被登陸 這樣是一個戰略目標那剛才部長你提到的是說我們會全面檢討 全面努力這個不是戰略目標 這沒有回答到我的問題我們是不是請這一個司長來尖端的回答一下我不認為我們應該要在這個地方回答這樣子你認為戰略它不應該"},{"start":105.53,"end":109.48,"text":"做跟國民來去做透視的因為無人機的應用我認為應該是在作戰層級跟戰術層級"},{"start":113.441,"end":127.212,"text":"所以說我們各國的這些將領在對無人機的戰略表達他們的看法的時候因為戰略成績是一個我們整個全軍的這個防衛作戰的計畫來做一個整體的構想無人機的應用是屬於在這個整體的防衛構想之下在作戰成績跟戰術成績裡面的運用"},{"start":139.215,"end":161.437,"text":"OK好部長如果你覺得這樣子的回答有你滿意的話那我尊重你我們現在請這個市長我們的戰略的目標無人載具的戰略目標是什麼我剛剛已經回答了你回答什麼我回答了就是說無人機的運用是屬於作戰成績跟戰術成績你回答說無人機的戰術成績你一定要請站位司司長回答"},{"start":164.846,"end":183.168,"text":"我們整個無人機的運用都是在我們總統指導的從神賀祖多於巨子的這個概念之下來做運用那在我們整個規劃裡面他所使用的面向當然是很多但是因為我們引進無人機現在處於起步階段"},{"start":183.869,"end":199.954,"text":"所以就我們能夠獲得的部分我們會依照我們建軍規劃的期程納入後續兵力整建的項目同時也依照這些無人機的獲得配合參謀本部這邊來修正它未來整個作戰運用"},{"start":201.408,"end":226.695,"text":"好 謝謝市長我剛剛講那麼多就是說我們希望無人載具它能夠在假設有台海衝突的時候它要扮演怎麼樣的聚酯我們的目標是他們的登陸艦嗎我們的目標是防止他們的兩棲的這個進攻我們的這些可能登陸的地方嗎主要是做偵測嗎還是做更多的比方說我們可以投入更多的資源在我們的自殺型的無人艦艇或者是這個無人機"},{"start":228.115,"end":254.057,"text":"等等就是說我們大概有一個戰略上面的目標所以剛才市長你說從陳鶴祖等等的跟委員報告您講的這些都在我們的作戰計畫當中那我認為我們這些相關的作戰計畫的運用並不適宜在這個公開場合去討論我沒有跟你講說要把計畫來解開你的計畫對 但事實上無論是這個問題是所有外媒都會問我們的我們的目的是什麼 比方說在"},{"start":255.699,"end":273.492,"text":"烏克蘭的這些軍方他們在進入外美的時候他們說我們希望在黑海能夠拒止他們用不對稱的作戰的方式等等這些都是戰略上簡單簡單二要的跟大家講所以我們的目的是說我們當然會借無人機的部署的靈活戰術的彈性跟通訊中心等等這些特性來進行精準的攻擊來發揮不對稱的戰力"},{"start":276.79,"end":302.646,"text":"我們來請教一下中科院的6月78號我們在蘇澳外海舉辦的水面無人載具關於這個新聞媒體有提到是比武大賽我想請教院長我們這次的為什麼我們要決定邀請的對象是什麼樣的方式去是公開的邀請所有能夠參與的人都來一起參與是公開邀請"},{"start":303.046,"end":331.137,"text":"公開邀請所以說是全面性就是讓只要具備資格的廠商就能夠來參加甚至是能夠來展示嗎是的包含了造船的還有通訊的還有控制軟體的透過這樣子的目的我們的中科院的這個比武大戰的目的是什麼是希望未來有更多的民間的產業能夠進入投資然後來去生產更多這樣子的無人艦這是說一個拋磚引玉的動作嗎我們的目的是什麼我們這一次的中科院的這個"},{"start":331.597,"end":352.663,"text":"這個目的應該分成兩個層面第一個層面是對我們自己還有工部門的人而言讓大家都了解整個無人載具技術進步到什麼樣的程度未來的潛能在哪裡第二個是對於這些廠商提供給他們一個展示個人研發成果或是自己食品技術的一個展示的舞台"},{"start":353.271,"end":370.721,"text":"但是院長我想請教一下就是我們的需求是不是要先把它開出去這樣子未來能夠來自民間產業可能不是這種中大型的這些企業它能夠有一個先配合我們的需求就是先有這個我們要把這個supply請他們做出來我們要有底面才會有supply因為這個"},{"start":371.641,"end":394.394,"text":"無人載具在海面上面的這些部署其實很多是有軍用面向的所以如果我們的spec是開得很高或開得非常的困難的話或許我們會得到很優良的這些無人的船艦但是可能它的量就沒辦法達到我們的目的所以說我們的戰略的方向是說我們是要做聚酯是在海面上聚酯還是做偵測"},{"start":395.334,"end":422.864,"text":"還有各個不同的面向讓我們的產業才能夠有它足夠的scale就是一切嘛你沒有量的話你沒有辦法你只有值的話那當你一對五到第六個第七個的時候我們就沒有足夠的反制能力所以我想請教一下這個院長未來你的規劃是怎麼樣是怎麼樣可以讓這個更多的中小企業能夠有機會來去參與類似這樣子的它不見得是要自己做出整建那它必須要有一個場域能夠來提供他們的這些重要的一些零組件體"},{"start":424.108,"end":439.613,"text":"這邊跟委員報告這次參加的廠商總共有9家國內的廠商4家國外的廠商總共13家參與那這13家他們都有現成的技術和成品為什麼剛剛我們要講我們第一個層面辦理的目的就是讓"},{"start":441.053,"end":468.691,"text":"我們採購的包含軍方還有工部門包含海巡啊經濟部內政部等等去了解到現在現有的產品已經到達什麼樣的程度他才能決定他要用什麼樣的規格去採購多大的數量我想這是一個有主有從的我們可能先了解工信能到達什麼樣的程度還有未來的潛能在哪裡然後我們再來決定預算要怎麼編列好 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早安 主席宣布現在開始開會請議事人員先讀上一次會議議事錄那請主任秘書報告初期委員人數報告委員會初期委員移除法定人數好 那請議事人員先讀上一次會議的議事錄"},{"start":1851.089,"end":1872.8,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第十六次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年6月5日星期四10時至13時地點群選和酒樓大禮堂出席委員賴思寶委員等14人列席委員黃國昌委員等9人列席官員審計部審計長陳惠敏衛生福利部長邱太元行政院主計總處主計長陳淑芝副主計長陳惠娟紀"},{"start":1876.302,"end":1895.041,"text":"所屬相關人員 主席賴昭吉委員事保報告事項一 宣讀商會議事錄決定議事錄確定二 邀請省紀部陳省紀長瑞敏 行政組紀總處陳組紀長淑芝 衛生福利部就最近疫情再起有關衛生福利部過去所準備的快篩試劑疫苗 各式藥品等相關醫療機構因應措施進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1898.364,"end":1926.938,"text":"經衛福部 邱部長及審計部陳審計長分別提出報告後 藉由委員林德夫等17人提出質詢經衛福部 邱部長 審計部陳審計長 主計總處陳主計長相關人員予以答覆決定一 報告質詢達完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會議中人以順便答覆委員要求期限者重新鎖定三 委員脈力之間鎖定順便質詢 略入紀錄 刊登跟報評相關部會以順便答覆 宣讀而立"},{"start":1933.319,"end":1940.651,"text":"因為這場委員尚未足法定人數那議事錄我們暫不確定請議事人員先讀今日的議程"},{"start":1942.945,"end":1964.171,"text":"1.繼續審查國際金融業務條例8案1.本院委員、審判會等18人、委員中嘉賓等17人分別擬據國際金融業務條例第13條、第22之7及第22條之16條人修正草案等2案2.行政院行政審議本院委員李坤成等20人、委員陳金輝等16人、委員郭國文等19人"},{"start":1965.171,"end":1989.874,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬拒國際金融業務條例第22條之16條文修正草案等6案二繼續審查證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法9案依行政行情審議本院委員鍾嘉斌等20人委員李昆成等19人委員省發會等18人分別擬拒證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正"},{"start":1990.655,"end":2012.984,"text":"草案等四案二委員林楚瑩等十七人委員王宏偉等十九人委員郭國文等十八人委員賴世寶等三十二人分別擬據證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案等四案三委員林思明等十八人擬據證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條條文修正草案案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2015.263,"end":2038.899,"text":"好 謝謝那我們先介紹議會的政府官員首先我們介紹金管會主委彭金榮彭主委法律事務處林志憲林處長政企局我們的張局長保險局王局長證券投資及期貨交易中心董事長張董事長"},{"start":2040.866,"end":2063.235,"text":"總經理林俊鴻,謝謝,歡迎那財政部護稅署,宋秀玲署長那中央銀行外匯局,洪護局長司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳,陳彥霖,陳法官法務部法治司,護司長兼參事,謝志明"},{"start":2065.029,"end":2075.176,"text":"好 接著我們請議事人員在本次會議安排依繼續審查行政院函請審議國際金融業務條例等22條之16條那條文修正草案第8案"},{"start":2082.622,"end":2106.696,"text":"2.繼續審查行政院行情審議證件投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案等9案現在請議事人員先讀今日審查國際金融業務條例部分條文修正草案等8案證件投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案等9案之條文內容"},{"start":2107.657,"end":2109.598,"text":"一劑先讀的時間是12分鐘先讀完畢以後一劑是在9點半進行協商請醫師人員先讀"},{"start":2118.116,"end":2143.457,"text":"國際金融業務條例修正草案對照現行條文修正第13條委員審發會等18人提案委員中嘉賓等17人提案相同國際金融業務分行之所得免徵盈利事業所得稅其損失亦不得自所得額中減除但對中華民國境內之個人、法人、政府機關或金融機構受信之所得其徵免應依照所得稅法規定辦理"},{"start":2145.373,"end":2162.396,"text":"修正第二十二条之七,委员审法会等十八人提案,委员、宗家斌等十七人提案相同。修正第一项为,国际证券业务分公司经营国际证券业务之所得,免征盈利事业所得税,其损失亦不得自所得额中减除。"},{"start":2163.217,"end":2175.336,"text":"但對中華民國境內之個人、法人、政府機關或金融機構辦理第二條之四第一項各款業務之所得其增免應依照所得稅法規定辦理"},{"start":2178.154,"end":2191.089,"text":"委員中嘉賓等17人提案修正第五項前四項免徵營利事業所得稅營業稅印花稅及免禦扣繳所得稅之施行期間自中華民國104年2月6日起至124年12月31日止"},{"start":2195.905,"end":2211.356,"text":"修正第22條之16行政院提案委員李坤誠等20人委員陳金輝等16人委員鍾嘉斌等17人委員郭國文等19人委員羅廷偉等17人委員陳玉珍等16人提案均相同修正第5項"},{"start":2212.817,"end":2231.678,"text":"前四項免徵營利事業所得稅、營業稅、印花稅及免預扣繳所得稅之實施期間,自中華民國104年2月6日起至124年12月31日止,但於上開期間訂定之保險契約,至保險契約有效期間屆滿之日止,且不得超過30年。"},{"start":2233.666,"end":2253.64,"text":"委員審發會等18人,委員宗教兵等17人提案相同修正第一項,國際保險業務分公司經營國際保險業務之所得免徵盈利事業所得稅,其損失亦不得自所得而終減除但其資金在中華民國境內運用所生之所得,其徵免應依照所得稅法規定辦理"},{"start":2255.089,"end":2276.321,"text":"修正第五項 前四項免徵營利事業所得稅、營業稅、櫻花稅及免預扣繳所得稅之實施期間自中華民國一百零四年二月六日起算二十年但於上開期間訂定之保險契約至保險契約有效期間屆滿之日子且不得超過三十年宣讀完畢"},{"start":2288.249,"end":2309.926,"text":"證券投資人及其或交易人保護法部分條文修正草案第十一條之一行證券提案第一項序文修正為保護機構發現上市上櫃或新櫃公司之董事或監察人有違反證券交易法第20條第一項第二項第155條第一項第二項第157條之一第一項第二項其或交易法第106條之第108條第一項規定或有證券交易法第32條第一項請示而無同條"},{"start":2317.131,"end":2343.502,"text":"第二項免責事由第171條第一項第二款或第三款規定之情勢或執行業務有重大損害公司之行為或違反法令或章程之重大事項得以下定規定辦理其他款項會修正委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案同行證願委員沈發慧等18人提案同行證願委員林儲英等17人提案第一項序文修正為保護機構發現上市商櫃"},{"start":2345.799,"end":2358.416,"text":"或行歸共識之董事或監察人有涉違反證券交易法第20條第一項第二項第155條第一項第二項第157條之一第一項第二項期貨交易法第106條之第108條第一項規定"},{"start":2361.46,"end":2384.831,"text":"或證券交易法第32條第一項情勢而無同條第二款免則是有第171條第一項第二款或第三款規定情勢或執行業務有重大損害公知行為或違反法令或章程之重大事項經檢察官起訴後得以下列規定辦理其他款項未修正委員王宏威等17人提案"},{"start":2385.911,"end":2404.004,"text":"第一項第二款修正為訴請法院裁判結認公司之董事監察人或已卸任之董事監察人不受公司法第200條至第227條準用第200條之限制且結認事由不疑起訴時任其內發生者違憲"},{"start":2405.731,"end":2421.719,"text":"第七項修正為第一項第二款之董事監察人或已升任之董事監察人經法院裁判決定確定後自裁判決定日期三年內不得充任上市商櫃或新櫃公司之董事監察人及公司法第27條第一項規定原"},{"start":2424.56,"end":2446.98,"text":"指定代表行使職權之自然人 其充任者當然截然其他款項未修正委員李昆城的17人提案 同行正月委員郭國文的18人提案 同行正月委員賴世保等30人提案第一項虛文修正為保護機構發現上市上櫃或新櫃公司總事或監察人有違反證券交易法"},{"start":2448.061,"end":2467.479,"text":"第20條、第155條、第150條之一或期貨交易法第106條之第108條規定或有證券交易法第32條、第171條之請示或執行業務有重大損害公司行為或違反法令或章程之重大事項得意下列規定辦理其他環項未修正"},{"start":2468.46,"end":2480.684,"text":"為零四名的18人提案第一項序文修正為保護機構發現上市商櫃或新櫃公司的董事或監察人或已卸任之董事或監察人有違反證監交易法第20條第一項第二項第155條第一項第二項"},{"start":2484.265,"end":2510.779,"text":"第157條之一第一項第二項施握交易法第106條之第108條第一項規定或正確交易法第32條第一項請示二無通條第二項免責適用第171條第一項第二款或第三款之請示或執行公司業務與重大損害工資行為或法令或章程之重大事項得以下列規定辦理其他款項維修正第20條行政院提案"},{"start":2512.844,"end":2528.921,"text":"第二項修正為前項第二款之經費以當年度保護基金之息及當年度保護基金之息之應業務支出剩餘撥回基金累積數至合計為上限便利預算辦理但主管機關得視其財務業務情況適當調整之"},{"start":2533.547,"end":2561.783,"text":"委員種甲餅等20人提案第二項修正為前項第二款制經費以當年度保護基金之資行及清三年度保護基金之息之因業務支出勝於撥回基金累積數之合計為上限便利預算辦理但主管機關得失其財務業務情形適當調整之委員審發會等18人提案委員離婚程等19人提案委員林思敏等18人提案均同行政院"},{"start":2563.044,"end":2591.143,"text":"第三十二條文中嘉秉的二十人提案第二項修正為保護機構因於收受判決或判斷書證本或企業內應即將其結果及是否提起上述之意旨已於網站公告方式使通知證券投資人及期貨交易人之息但判決不利於證券投資人並因於企業內將是否提起上述之意旨以書面通知證券投資人或期貨交易人"},{"start":2592.52,"end":2610.24,"text":"第四條之一行政院提案修正為本法中華民國109年6月10日修正公佈同年8月1日施行前以第四條之一第一項規定提起之上至訴訟事件尚未終結者適用修正施行後之規定"},{"start":2611.397,"end":2635.644,"text":"本法中華民國千年全月全日修正這條文施行前以依第十條之依第一項規定提起直訴訟事件尚未終結者適用修正施行後製規定委員鐘家炳的二十人提案委員沈發威等十八人提案委員李坤成的十九人提案均同行政院第四十條第四十一條"},{"start":2637.116,"end":2660.79,"text":"行政院提案修訂第二項本法中華民國千年確約全日修正這條文自公佈日式一行委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案 委員沈發慧等18人提案 委員李昆城等40人提案峻統行政院宣讀完畢好謝謝那介紹現在在場的各位委員 首先先介紹黃珊珊委員林修銘委員"},{"start":2668.121,"end":2690.266,"text":"還有吳秉瑞委員我們現在請問各位委員對議事錄有沒有意義沒有意義那議事錄確定那現在這個宣讀完畢我們就是預計在九點半九點半開始進行協商"},{"start":3589.482,"end":3609.835,"text":"好我們開始 現在首先先讀修正動議委員黃珊珊等三人所提修正動議第十條之一前項保護機構發現上市上櫃或新櫃公司之董事或監察人有證券交易法第171條第一項第173條第174條第一項第三款第八款期貨交易法"},{"start":3615.538,"end":3630.75,"text":"一百十二條第一項第一百十四條貪污自罪條例第十一條營業秘密法第十三條之一第十三條之二獲洗錢防治法第十九條規定之情事其餘內容與行政院提案相同宣讀完畢"},{"start":3633.696,"end":3649.573,"text":"好 謝謝那今天我們先從國際金融業務條例那我們先審查那針對第13條委員審花會等18人的提案跟委員鍾嘉斌等17人的提案那嘉斌委員那個要不要做個說明一下"},{"start":3651.369,"end":3671.275,"text":"我跟我們省委員的提案都相同那麼其損失亦不得自所得而終減除那這個部分呢因為沒有行政院版所以我們想了解一下目前金管會對這個條文的看法還有我們財政部的看法好請金管會那個回答"},{"start":3672.638,"end":3685.46,"text":"呃今晚會對於委員所提的這些文字啊我們是這個呃贊同但是這是屬於財政部職權我們尊重財政部好那個黃先生委員"},{"start":3689.431,"end":3703.743,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想這個國際金融業務條例我們是支持它延長的但是我那天質詢主委的時候一樣嘛就原來這個也十年了這十年來其實它的效益真的不高啊"},{"start":3704.588,"end":3726.265,"text":"那主委現在要做的是亞洲資產中心在高雄那我上次說的是如果十年前做得不好現在你如何告訴我你會做得很好那第二個就是亞洲資產管理中心他將來可能是希望把全世界的錢到台灣來做管理所以我希望主委要"},{"start":3726.986,"end":3743.325,"text":"第一promise你這十年延長了以後你現在答應我是業績要完成還要超一倍第二個我希望亞洲資產管理中心除了保險之外還有銀行還有其他的相關的系統我希望你有一個法規鬆綁的時程表"},{"start":3744.787,"end":3769.248,"text":"也就是說亞洲資產管理中心最大的問題是在於中華民國的法規 金融法規過於限縮讓很多的資產不願意到台灣來那既然要做這件事這個延長是一個方法但是其他最重要的是各個相關的亞洲資產管理中心要做管理中心的法規鬆綁至少要有時程表遞交給財政委員會未來十年"},{"start":3770.71,"end":3798.169,"text":"不要說什麼你亞洲資產關係說不能十年嘛至少我幾年內要修完保險法哪些規定銀行法哪些規定相關的時程表要訂出來否則我們再給你十年十年後我們都不在這裡了然後就說啊十年後那個績效不好啦再來十年我覺得沒有必要因為十年前的時候就已經有KPI了那今天這個我們支持但是我希望主委能夠遞出來你的你上次跟我說因為"},{"start":3799.312,"end":3799.452,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":3828.296,"end":3854.03,"text":"還在13條郭文我先講一下好了我覺得在財政委員會當然是租稅相關的一個條文是屬於財政部業管但是基本上就這個延長的部分就我個人的理解應該已經到期了要延到2035年的年底的話基本上應該不會有太大的一個反對更何況稅差存的部分也不過600而已"},{"start":3854.79,"end":3867.68,"text":"那只有稅價準這麼低的話那主要是OIU的這個業務內容實在是萎縮的速度實在太快了從原來的這個保惠的收入從2017年的1.68億衰退到2024年的115萬美元"},{"start":3873.564,"end":3896.781,"text":"那全年杜葦不過是賣出四張的新的保單我覺得這個主委應該你心知肚明啦所以說主委為什麼今年說會開放這個新的產品那剛剛黃珊瑋講說是不是能夠成長十倍你覺得沒問題啊從低的要成長十倍甚至二十倍都沒問題啊不過十倍不過是一千萬美元而已啊二十倍你不過是兩千萬美元他挺過漢布朗當核台幣不過"},{"start":3897.681,"end":3924.161,"text":"兩千萬不夠合六億台幣相對於受險業的這個新的契約保單是八千四百一十八億來說這個真的是差別非常的大啦好 主委我想你非常清楚啦那如何其實延長不是重點啦重點是如何擴大業務啦這個才有意義嘛而且你又要推亞太金融管理中心大家都你很清楚啊這是你的專長用什麼方法來讓延長有意義我想才是今天的重點"},{"start":3927.594,"end":3948.856,"text":"好 是不是請財政部回應一下針對的第13條跟各位委員報告就有關委員特別提出來說損失不得自所得中減除主要是因為我們在憲法法庭第110年度的憲判制定文號判決意旨它就已經有規定說本來就不能減"},{"start":3949.617,"end":3971.434,"text":"另外是在我們一律系的所得稅差額準則第111條之二第二項我們也明列OBU條例的相關所得如果免稅他損失也不能減所以當時財政部的立場才會說因為法律已經有明確的規定的是似乎是可以不用在這邊再特別規定啦但這是財政部的立場"},{"start":3973.547,"end":3993.064,"text":"好那請問各位在場的那個同仁那我們針對第13條是不是就是用維持現行的條文不知道各位有沒有其他的意見是吧有沒有沒有好那我們就第13條就是維持現行的條文"},{"start":3995.466,"end":4010.992,"text":"那我們再來進入到第22條之7 委員沈花卉等18人的提案 委員鍾嘉斌等17人的提案 是 那那個是不是嘉賓委員要不要補充說明一下"},{"start":4013.598,"end":4029.047,"text":"也一樣那也一樣就是維持現行的條文是不是主席等一下因為這個我的條文跟沈委員的條文在後半段是不太一樣的因為沈委員的條文它在最後一項上面的一個"},{"start":4031.141,"end":4058.533,"text":"棉雨蔻角的期間呢自生肖日起算15年我的是自中華民國104年2月6日起至124年12月31日止那這個條文的寫法呢我先講第一項的部分呢既然剛剛第13條已經行政院的意見認為說不用增列該文字也有同樣的效果那所以呢在這一個22條之期的部分呢那第一項"},{"start":4059.273,"end":4081.01,"text":"也不用陣列同樣的文字有同樣的效果我也接受可是重點在後面的延長的期限那延長的期限是參照包括在22條之16所有的提案委員都是針對這一條那這一條其實跟院版一樣院版講的是OIUOIU的部分是從本來的原條文我們看22條之16它是說"},{"start":4084.332,"end":4110.783,"text":"生肖日起算十年那到我們的行政院版的修改呢是變成是至一百零四年當年的生肖日是一百零四年的二月六日那往後推算到年底就是二十年就多一些些到年底切齊這是行政院二十二條之十六就是OIU的延長優惠的年限所有的提案委員在這個部分都跟行政院版相同"},{"start":4111.623,"end":4137.015,"text":"那當然省委員的部分它是只有寫20年那我這邊是參照既然OIU是如此那是不是OSU的部分也是參照呢日期從104年到124年跟OIU拉齊那當然目前OSU它其實才運轉了6年多它後面還有3年多所以它是還沒到期"},{"start":4137.535,"end":4156.524,"text":"但是呢 既然我們這是修法 還未借期的這個OSU呢 是不是一併比照OIU 一併讓它延期然後呢 而且兩邊的日程呢 切期 這以上好 金管會是不是說金管會來 財政部回應"},{"start":4161.551,"end":4176.839,"text":"跟委員報告那因為這個OSU的條文呢它是到117年6月20號才借起所以從現在算還有3年多也就是說如果10年其實還走了6年多還有3年多"},{"start":4177.339,"end":4202.877,"text":"那一般因為根據我們包含財政紀律法跟第六條跟納保法第六條以及行政班訂的稅制之助評估作業辦法裡面的規定都是要快借其錢我們才會評估所以像結農家電也是這樣像之前當沖降稅也是這樣那為什麼要這樣並不是說好像規定這樣就一定要而是有它的原因它的原因是主要說因為我們要做稅制之助評估簡單講就是要確認它的成本跟效益嘛"},{"start":4203.377,"end":4222.253,"text":"那通常成本效益都是一個實施到一定期間用最新的數據去驗證我馬上延期是有效的因為有時候我用60多的資料驗證現在有效但是到了9年驗證可能因為中間有變化所以可能無效所以我們通常是從科學驗證的角度是用"},{"start":4223.254,"end":4234.94,"text":"涵蓋最多年度那用最新的數據來驗證它的成本效益第二個還有一個原因是在我們做稅市支出評估還要確認說它有沒有構成國際上定義的有害租稅競爭或所謂的不公平租稅我們以歐盟為例歐盟在106到107年就曾經對我們台灣做稅務體制檢視那就看我們有沒有構成有害租稅競爭另外像最近美國美國他"},{"start":4251.129,"end":4252.831,"text":"所以我們通常都是要等到他們發佈然後我們去檢視有沒有"},{"start":4269.182,"end":4269.202,"text":"來 嘉賓"},{"start":4296.591,"end":4323.637,"text":"嘉賓他那個財政部的說明不曉得你同不同意時間沒到所以我們沒有同意沒有話講完啦好讓你講因為今天呢我們之所以會配合跟行政院的22條之1622條之16行政院是因為雅芝中心希望能夠擴大本國的金融業者能夠踏入國際保險業務就是所謂的OIU因此呢在原條文當中起算十年今年即將屆期"},{"start":4325.017,"end":4346.653,"text":"因此認為有必要迎接期,所以要延長那這要延長表示兩件事情第一,前面這十年,我們的OIU這樣的一個優惠這樣的一個做法,對本國業者的做法是有助於他們開拓國際業務的有效,他們要有錢可以繼續吃嘛他們要沒有錢就不要吃嘛"},{"start":4347.453,"end":4376.225,"text":"既然是有效要擴大要延長我們當然是支持但是剛剛財政部的說法是說什麼當我們對本國的金融業者跨足國際保險業務的時候我們擔心他國的業者會以台灣對自己國的業者跨足他國的領域給予這樣的租稅優惠是一種不公平的競爭是有一種歧視性的作為怕被計較來要求我們台灣內部是不是要相對等的開放"},{"start":4376.625,"end":4384.177,"text":"他國的業者到台灣從事同樣的國際業務也要給予什麼樣的一個優惠 我們不曉得但是呢 既然"},{"start":4385.438,"end":4409.266,"text":"金管會提出來的論文說可以延長行政院也評估這個OIU延長呢並不至於造成其他國家對我們本國業者政府對本國業者的一個歧視性的特別保護待遇那既然OIU不至於造成其他國家認定我們採取一個歧視性的作為那為什麼OSU就會有呢其實我們要強調的是這不是稅事評估的問題"},{"start":4410.226,"end":4426.023,"text":"因為稅制評估裡面所評估的是稅損有多少那其實就我們所知道的目前不管是OIU還是OSU因為實施之後我們本國業的跨足國際金融業務因為這樣的條款而產生的租稅優勉其實是很少的"},{"start":4426.644,"end":4445.53,"text":"但是呢雖然少但是我們認為有助於本國業者去打國際盃所以我們覺得在OIU的部分呢十年期滿我們要再延長那既然如此立法機關認為有必要我們主動的在OSU的部分雖然只實施了快七年還有三年多但是我們提早來檢視如果是同樣有效金管會認為這個"},{"start":4447.01,"end":4472.587,"text":"這個優惠呢對OIU有效那也認為對OSU有效那既然對兩者都有效我們何必等到OSU屆期之後再來檢討再花一次立法成本我們就這個時候就給予延長那剛剛所說的理由是擔心到時候到OSU在進行要延長的評估的時候呢他國的反應如何如何我覺得這個要考慮進去沒有錯但是目前顯然的對OIU的延長沒有其他國家對台灣的認定是歧視性作為啊"},{"start":4473.047,"end":4499.745,"text":"那既然對OSU不認為是歧視性作為為什麼對OSU就是一種歧視性作為呢所以我是覺得這樣的說法呢有待商榷不過呢我們還是願意多聽聽行政院的意見也就是說不因為尚未屆期立法機關就不能優先提出來檢討也不因為稅制評估的這個程序其中我所知道的金管會應該對於OSU目前在實施六年多它的租稅休免有沒有產生效果應該先做個說明"},{"start":4500.566,"end":4512.126,"text":"如果沒有效 那我們就不用管他嘛 反正十年到了就人就不用延長了嘛或許對OSU跟OIU同樣的優惠效果不同我是想聽聽看金管委的意見好 那請諸位"},{"start":4516,"end":4537.667,"text":"謝謝委員的這些的詢問這次行政院院版只有修第22條之16針對OIU那當然我們在整個修正程序之前我們也有提出我們說是不是那個因為OSU屆期也快到雖然還有三年我們有跟財政部提出一些這樣不過"},{"start":4538.607,"end":4562.112,"text":"財政部有他一套的在整個租稅調整的這樣的一個法律跟那個流程所以我們後來是尊重所以我們覺得說真的到三年的時候我們再來提出這是我們前面誠心在做這個但是如果說站在金管會立場剛剛委員提到我們就以我們推動我們自己的業務來看的話我們當然是希望這個是能夠"},{"start":4562.992,"end":4582.478,"text":"延長但是就是說這個確實不是金管會這邊所能夠決定的因為剛剛其實宋署長也說了就是說實際上整個他們在調整租稅的時候會有一定的程序那我想這部分我們是尊重但是我們也是希望不管是現在或是未來三年都能夠支持因為我們確實這對我們整個推動業務剛剛其實我也知道國際上正在討論這個租稅最低租稅制"},{"start":4588.44,"end":4602.966,"text":"這部分的話這些的任何的租稅減免最後呢都可能會要有一個最低的租稅的說服以確保各國租稅是公平的甚至在國際貿易上也是公平的我想這是另外一回事但是但我覺得這部分的話"},{"start":4604.166,"end":4621.612,"text":"我們現在原則上還是先支持行政運版先把OIU這部分先把它確定那當然如果說未來或是現在我覺得如果說OSU能夠通過也是我們金管會同意但是這個真的就是那個財政部他有他一套的整個做法我們是尊重 對"},{"start":4622.898,"end":4646.793,"text":"好,財政部要不要再補充,那如果不補充的話,那請問各位委員我們要不要維持現行的條例我既然金管會不堅持,那我們這個提案是本來站在金管會拓展我們的國際金融業務的思考那如果金管會認為三年後再來評估也可以,但是我覺得剛剛財政部講的很有道理就是未來的國際最低租稅制,即將每個國家都遇到"},{"start":4647.293,"end":4669.69,"text":"那是不是今天這個條文我們就明語正烈但是請財政部附帶決議回去做一個類似這樣的一個國際金融業務的租稅休免本國實施對本國業者實施是否會構成對其他國家的不公平競爭我們先做個評估也就是說我們不能只考量自己的稅市評估而已不能只考量自己的稅損而已還要考量到未來其他的國際會不會對我們制裁"},{"start":4670.911,"end":4685.078,"text":"因為台灣是一個高度依賴國際貿易的國家那像這樣的服務貿易也是我們重視的重點那我也是請你們附帶決議做一個這樣的評估那以後在三年後我們要思考要不要延長的時候不是只考慮稅損還要考慮到什麼國際競爭優勢和其他的國際相對的制裁的一個風險以上"},{"start":4693.153,"end":4711.824,"text":"評論謝謝專家評委員的高見但是我建議這個評估要慢一點因為國際的標準還沒有出來還沒有訂定出來你現在還沒有訂定出來你現在就是抓一個可能的標準再評估跟真的那個標準出來之後的評估中間是有一點點距離當然你這個"},{"start":4714.085,"end":4728.413,"text":"高見我們現在都是很緊張都希望下屆立委都先把前面這些都處理掉三年多之後是第十二屆立委的事情那很可能在座的很多人都會連任他也有可能不在這裡那這是我們預先去處理不過"},{"start":4731.411,"end":4747.609,"text":"我是建議啦等到國際那個標準出來之後我們再評估才會比較準確啦那現在如果說預想可能有這樣子的一個前提那我也不知道這個前提的內容的詳細內容是什麼就先做評估我覺得那個"},{"start":4748.61,"end":4772.048,"text":"有時候行政機關他會增加不少他的工作我建議考慮看看好 我支持但是是不是說下次如果要對OSU提出延長的時候這個評估要一併提出 好不好是下次要提出延長的時候再來評估不是現在評估 好下次提出來 崑城委員教練如果下次提出要把這個評估提出來"},{"start":4773.148,"end":4800.585,"text":"好 我簡單講一下因為這個都是為了這個亞洲資產管理中心在延長10年那其實我也沒有看到資料說其實這10年當中你們的這一個所產生的利益在哪裡有一個數據出來嗎然後過去10年當中的稅損在哪裡對有嗎 有嗎OIU的部分啦 OIU的部分"},{"start":4803.457,"end":4824.145,"text":"那你們的創造出來的利益有多少?這個都有資料嗎?是不是再一份給昆城委員那這個22條之7我們充分的討論本席在這裡裁定是不是維持現行的條文"},{"start":4828.288,"end":4844.322,"text":"好那就維持現前的條文是不是請財政部就是下次你們提出來如果OSU要來評估的時候那時候要對這個加入這個項目評估那財政部你趕快寫一個附帶的結議我跟委員報告我們可以幫忙寫跟市議會稅事局評估是儘管會要做我們做負評"},{"start":4847.074,"end":4866.938,"text":"是經管會因為根據財政紀律法第六條規定是要做對 他們提我們會幫 會協助那就請經管會跟那個趕快寫了那第22條之7我們就維持現行的條文那我們進入到第22條之16現行條文 維持現行條文"},{"start":4876.721,"end":4894.853,"text":"那我們進入到第22條之16行政院的一個提案那委員沈花卉 鍾嘉斌 李坤澄 郭國文 陳金威 羅廷偉 陳一貞等提案那在場的請那個鍾嘉斌委員有沒有要補充的"},{"start":4895.475,"end":4918.642,"text":"沒有因為剛剛在22條之7我們就並同22條之16就講完了只是說這次我們是支持行政院版這個各委員都支持行政院版的做法那只是說未來如果還需要有延長的時候希望能把財政部剛剛所說的那個因素考量進去 以上好 那個崑禎委員 郭文委員好 那沒有意見33委員 來現在主席就是我剛剛說的"},{"start":4924.246,"end":4946.655,"text":"主委願意寫一個法規的法規檢討的時程表因為你要開放未來十年的計劃 好嗎附帶決議可以幫我寫一下嗎好 這樣子好啦 那個金管會金管會那你的桌"},{"start":4960.806,"end":4965.869,"text":"本席在這裡宣布第22條之16我們就照行政院提案通過謝謝"},{"start":4972.579,"end":4996.545,"text":"接下來我們進入到政見投資及期貨交易交易人保護法第10條之一行政院提案 委員鍾嘉斌 李坤城 沈花惠 郭國文 林楚英賴世保 王紅薇 林思敏等還有黃珊珊委員的修正動議那請問在場的委員要不要補充"},{"start":5005.092,"end":5020.92,"text":"主席我想這個針對10條之一那其實我的提案跟行政院版計時差不多我想我們落實保障公司的經營還有投資人的權益建立公平安全的交易環境"},{"start":5022.02,"end":5044.811,"text":"所以我們針對整個公司自己的合法的要合法合規並擴充保護機構經費的來源因應業務的發展那我們要明文詳列保護機構得提起代表訴訟解任訴訟的獨立事由所以針對修正本條第一項的部分文字呢除因事務上就保護機構依第一項所定的訴訟"},{"start":5045.971,"end":5069.143,"text":"是否應辦理第十條第一項業務而提起有不同的見解為免爭議所以我們刪除第一項序文辦理前一條第一項業務的文字另外我們也針對整個我們可以提起獨立訴訟的幾個條文比如說違反政見交易法第20條第30條2條以及171條第一項第二款"},{"start":5073.925,"end":5090.388,"text":"第三款的相關規定的情勢這些也屬於不適合擔任董事監察人職務的情勢那我們也會以這個增訂這個把它列為這個是可以提起這個解任訴訟的一個獨立的一個事由"},{"start":5091.269,"end":5111.459,"text":"那第二項至第九項的文字皆未修正我想大概就是跟行政院的版本差不多所以用行政院的版本我覺得我沒有意見我們就支持行政院的版本好 謝謝思敏那請國務委員我這邊是就教於那個彭主委其實條文內容其實大家都雷同"},{"start":5112.199,"end":5130.307,"text":"但是衍生出來的問題就在重點在擴大解任這個不適任的董事士的事由上面的一個程序問題這個程序過程當中以目前的商業法院在一個解任或請求訴訟的時間大概多久因為董事任期畢竟只有三年"},{"start":5131.167,"end":5157.034,"text":"那同樣的是說呢他第一個原公司所產生的爭議的一個判決還沒有下來的情況底下另外一個公司的董事才能作為當然解任的一個依據跟理由所以這是一個關鍵在於說這一個實務上他是不是能夠有效率的譬如講在一年內達成才對這些董監事的這些行為人才會有一定約束的能力這是第一個"},{"start":5157.594,"end":5173.815,"text":"第二個如果假設董建是屬於法人代表你把他解認之後他再換一個人那有什麼樣實質的效果就這一點我是看不出來的究竟在食物上有沒有什麼真正達到嚇阻力的效用"},{"start":5177.24,"end":5197.912,"text":"主委一併回答就是請賴思寶委員 花園 伺候就是珊珊委員是 主席各位先進我想我的提案跟其他委員大概也都是有相同精神第一個就是第二項到第九項大家都沒有修正我這邊沒有修正"},{"start":5198.712,"end":5212.973,"text":"主要修正的第一項主要就是幾大重點這個財團發展證券投資人保護中心這裡面是否因第十條第一項業務"},{"start":5214.595,"end":5237.092,"text":"有不同的見解為了強化公司的治理保護投訴交易所以我這裡就希望刪除掉第一項辦理前條第一項業務這個文字幫他刪除掉第二個就是有關於經濟環境的問題所以董結社可能濫權"},{"start":5238.773,"end":5264.427,"text":"的問題會影響到公司經營績效整第三點就是公司的董事監察人有增加法二十條三十二條說明書不實等詐欺的行為第一增加法第一百七十一條非常規交易侵佔非信等不法的行為也就是說他不適合擔任董事監事的情況那麼這個要究責"},{"start":5267.149,"end":5281.479,"text":"我提出第一項修正的一個有點瑣碎啦有點瑣碎但是基本的其實在這裡跟其他的委員很多地方也像類似但不完全一樣請各位指教 謝謝好 來那個三三委員"},{"start":5287.642,"end":5317.002,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我今天有一個修正動議主要是這一次證券投資人跟期貨交易人保護法的它的修正行政院的版本是希望說新增不適任董監事的獨立室友讓投資人保護中心可以依據該董事在A公司的不適任行為解聘他在B公司的董事職務所以我覺得這個是一個很好的方向但是我們認為說還是有很多的行為可能"},{"start":5318.022,"end":5346.841,"text":"如果你要防堵的话可能不止这两个行为那目前金管会的独立事由的范围在政交法跟齐交法那它的行为的样态呢它只有大概以行度来做区分所以我们今天的修正提案是把现有的状况那因为我们认为还有很多很严重的行为比如说违反政交法173条齐交法或者是贪污自罪条例它去行贿或者是有违反营业秘密法"},{"start":5347.481,"end":5350.567,"text":"或者是有洗錢的這些行為樣態那為什麼沒有納在所謂這次的對象裡面那剛剛"},{"start":5357.594,"end":5378.675,"text":"金管會他們有來溝通啦就是說對於他們這個部分他們也願意來去研議所以我現在是不是提一個附帶決議請大家參考就針對證券投資人跟期貨交易人保護法第十條之一的解認是有是否要擴及洗錢或貪污等不法樣態請投保中心在六個月之內研議納入投保法"},{"start":5379.435,"end":5394.546,"text":"這樣子的情況下我就可以接受附帶決議的方式我們希望接下去他們去研議更廣更寬的方式因為他這個只是董事解任並沒有影響太多的個人權益但重點是如果他已經犯了這麼多的罪"},{"start":5395.327,"end":5415.977,"text":"他在政交法 齊交法裡面他還可以續任董事這也不太應該所以我們希望有 請大家支持這個附帶決議以上 謝謝好 那個郭文婉以後是沒有沒有 主席我只是想說能不能先請主委先回答一下我怕後面的問題太過多樣性好 來 那個主委您先回答一下好不好那 那個再來是王世堅委員"},{"start":5417.11,"end":5427.864,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員這麼多指正我想待會兒其實有幾個問題啊剛剛就是那個解任裁判時間有多久還有法案代表的問題這個我可以請我們實務請我們那個張董事長來做個說明嗎 對"},{"start":5434.437,"end":5448.001,"text":"投保法的解任訴訟會進到商業法院解任訴訟大概是半年到一年半的時間案件事實的複雜度可能會有落差跟我們以前的經驗來講在普通法院審理的速度的確有變快"},{"start":5456.243,"end":5482.55,"text":"第二個問題是第二個問題是法人改派的問題這當然就是公司法號一直的基本的問題那現在我們的這個失格效會讓如果它是27條一項就法人股東當選他這個代表人你也不能再做譬如說A這個自然人他被我們解認三年內不能再任任何上市貴新貴公司的董事也不能任法人股東的代表人所以這個部分就有處理到不能處理代表人"},{"start":5495.14,"end":5511.854,"text":"所以如果法人他是指派代表人當選那個就沒有辦法截到那個法人是目前法律上在現行法要截判沒有辦法截到那個法人股東因為他要受自己法人的指令才做這樣的行為嘛"},{"start":5514.116,"end":5517.718,"text":"對 我了解委員的意思但是這是公司法上基本的設計"},{"start":5523.264,"end":5542.785,"text":"這個就是剛剛提到的就是因為我們有那個法案代表制他可以指定自然人或是由他的法案代表指派這問題剛剛其實張董事長已經說明了就是我們這是整個很複雜的問題但是就是說我們假如是法案代表的話他就是這個就是法人當選他就直接就是視為對法人的對剛剛郭委員提到這個問題我想說可能這樣"},{"start":5545.648,"end":5568.028,"text":"建起那個金管會去回去研究一下因為你還是處罰到自然人可是自然人的行為是受制於法人嘛那法人反而是他是守謀 他沒有事情他沒有任何一個可能懲罰性或嚇阻性的一個那個相對的一個懲罰性的作為的情況底下他可能還會下一個常制造同樣的行為出來那也不是一直在那邊換來換去而已嘛"},{"start":5570.24,"end":5587.914,"text":"對 這點我當然可以 比如說這個當然可以投保中心在針對這比較細緻的部分我們再做一些研究不過現在的 我們現在的公司法這個永安董事指派就是這個樣子啦那我們講說這部分可能沒辦法在這邊處理對 是 那我想這部分我們會來看看做一些"},{"start":5589.548,"end":5605.1,"text":"研議啦 就看看只能現在現階段只能這樣做那剛剛還有幾位委員提到那個比如說我們項目要增加其實剛剛那個黃委員提到那個那個提案裡面我們就一併來去考量這個問題因為我們畢竟現在來講的話因為上次我們提出的這些新增的這些項目都經過"},{"start":5606.241,"end":5621.241,"text":"經過大家充分的討論如果要新增剛才講的很多的譬如說的那個罪行項目的話我們還經過一些演繹那只是說剛剛那個附帶決議的部分文字本來是我們有提說是不是可以有個可行性三個字因為如果按照這文字的話會有一個概念"},{"start":5622.622,"end":5650.622,"text":"言議然後是不是下次就要再來修啦那我想說可行性如果有的話我們當然就會按照這個未來我們的立法計畫來做那我想如果說可以那可行性有那其實我們不堅持其實言議本身就有彈性啦如果比較清楚謝謝這個可行性我是覺得不用因為賴世保委員每次都說我已經叫你言議了你還要可行性好不好拜託只是言議而已啦言議啦言議好那接著世間委員"},{"start":5653.979,"end":5675.216,"text":"主委我們這次要推針對第二十條、三十二條關於財報、公開說明書不實證券詐欺行為要做處理這個是很好但是這樣我們保護機構要及時保障投資人權益這個也都正確但是你行使解認權"},{"start":5677.594,"end":5694.913,"text":"是在上訴或者判決確定的時候我們採用的是說上訴就可以去行使解認權那過去在所有的案子裡面包括政治上的案子也都是以判決決定 確定"},{"start":5696.789,"end":5724.586,"text":"才去行使當然那個曠日廢時判決確定曠日廢時所以為了及時保障所以我們提早到起訴嘛齁那但是那這樣子那如果我們起訴之後最後他判我們把他解認那判決確定之後他沒事他是被冤枉他無罪那怎麼辦有沒有補救是不是恢復他或者說他任期也過要不然怎麼去那個就對他的補償會是什麼謝謝"},{"start":5729.384,"end":5745.049,"text":"回覆委員的意見基本上我們是等到解認訴訟判決確定後他才去商業署那邊登記就他不能再當任何上市會公司的董事或監察人判決確定這邊寫的是說判決的話曠日廢時所以你們起訴就要把他解認"},{"start":5749.29,"end":5777.045,"text":"對,我們會先起訴,但是有效果的時候是法院判決確定然後解任的法院判決確定後,他才能夠罰責任委員那你這段文字你是這樣寫啊?你看一下,這第幾頁,那你這文字改一下委員在說第幾項?第一項第二款第20條、32條,你們行政院版的這一個他只是解任的室友"},{"start":5778.789,"end":5807.245,"text":"對,然後請委員看一下第七項原來的條文第八項第一項第二款之解任裁判確定後由主管機關函請公司登記主管機關辦理解任登記所以是確定後對,還是要判決確定好,那你這一部分你看一下好,事保不能及時保障投資人權利故應以起訴之十點為準所以修正啊"},{"start":5808.817,"end":5810.398,"text":"市長你要用麥克風,我沒有聽到那個可是你這個是這麼寫的"},{"start":5825.885,"end":5827.126,"text":"那請那個世保委員那個"},{"start":5843.769,"end":5873.443,"text":"花言那接著是昆城委員我覺得大家的利益的一個目標都是希望能夠這個提高這個對頭症的保護啦所以我覺得是不是我們就尊重行政院版本啦因為其他的職職階級我們就行政院版本這樣子看一套為準然後看各位有什麼要再加減的就是一套為準好不好快點啦"},{"start":5877.225,"end":5888.292,"text":"所以確定是裁判確定之後才解認嗎那怎麼你們給我們的修正重點說以起訴未確定的訴訟案件適用修正施行後的規定"},{"start":5889.929,"end":5906.024,"text":"那個是過度條文就是我們可能如果這個修法通過以後那可能還有些案件還在審理當中那到底應該是用新法還是舊法的問題所以是已經起訴但還沒有判決的問題好 這個請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":5910.031,"end":5933.54,"text":"感謝昭緯 對不起我不是針對於這個法案是剛通過的那一個部分給我30秒就好了基本上我對於OIU的租稅優惠延長10年我是全力支持的但是我要跟主委跟大家報告跟說明其實我在財務會討論過很多次就是說我們現在因為我們少子化之後過去有三四十萬每一年那我們現在每一年只有13萬"},{"start":5934.941,"end":5954.14,"text":"那個出生的嬰兒所以嬰兒越來越少我們各個產業都在搶人才國防的搶人才AI的搶人才我們金融產業未來如何留住人才特別是主委我們非常重視亞洲的金融中心所以我一直強調金融教育的義務化我還是希望在這一塊我們有機會"},{"start":5956.362,"end":5980.061,"text":"趕快跟教育部去溝通我們可以向下扎根在高中我們就義務教育金融的部分趕快去加強未來您在推動我們在台灣在亞洲的金融中心的這個角色我們基本的每一個孩子高中生的基本教育觀念是可以專注的我再一次也拜託主委那我對於這個法案是非常支持也謝謝昭緯給我時間講話謝謝"},{"start":5984.104,"end":5995.467,"text":"謝謝我們針對第十條之一請問在現場的委員還有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話我們就照行政宴版通過通過互待決議一案請議事人員先讀"},{"start":5998.803,"end":6014.398,"text":"委員黃珊珊等四人所提附帶決議針對證券投資員及其或交業人保護法第十條之一解任事由是否擴及洗酒或貪污等不法態樣請投保中心六個月內研議納入投保法宣布完畢"},{"start":6015.279,"end":6035.47,"text":"好那我們進入到第20條那就是請問那個這個行政院版的一個提案那委員鍾嘉斌李坤城沈花卉林思敏委員的提案那請問在現場鍾嘉斌委員有沒有要補充說明的那我們的那個思敏委員好"},{"start":6038.134,"end":6058.315,"text":"那就照行政院版 謝謝 那那個好 一樣 那李昆城委員也照行政院版那個提案通過好 那我們第20條我們就照行政院提案通過那我們進入到第32條 委員鍾嘉斌等20人提案"},{"start":6060.305,"end":6064.987,"text":"請問在現場的委員有沒有意見第32條在34頁請問在現場的委員有沒有意見嘉賓委員要不要做個補充"},{"start":6082.171,"end":6095.449,"text":"這只是在程序上做一些比較更明確嚴格的一個認定啦那就看看行政機關來表達對這樣的書寫文字規定是否在未來執行上更明確好"},{"start":6097.011,"end":6113.481,"text":"那是不是金管會主委那個做個補充是謝謝委員的那個那個指正就是我們原條文其實中委員所提的條文是就把它明確化就是把一些我們原來現在採素面通知的方式能夠把它分"},{"start":6114.221,"end":6140.961,"text":"分級分流啦那不同用採用不同的方式那我們是覺得說現在來講我們是用書面通知啦我們覺得現在還是先保留因為我們原來條文只寫通知我們會未來針對這個彈性可以針對通知可以實務上就不需要明確的寫在條文上面這些比較彈性的做法所以我們建議還是維持行政版本啦可以最後也可以按照實務需求可以做到剛剛鍾委員這樣所提的彈性"},{"start":6143.383,"end":6150.727,"text":"主委這個第32條是維持現行條文剛剛監管會的說明他把通知涵蓋到目前實務上的做法以及未來可能採行的做法因為包括網站包括書面那的確如果把它條文明確化明白的寫成書面還有所謂的網路公告等"},{"start":6167.637,"end":6183.812,"text":"那這都是在通知的含色範圍內啦那希望說未來呢 新管會如果三色條維持原條文的話那未來這個通知的具體執行方式還是要有一個相關執法或注意事項來表達以便讓這個受約束人有所遵循 以上"},{"start":6184.808,"end":6201.437,"text":"好 謝謝嘉賓好 那針對第32條我們就維持現行條文我們再進入第40條之一行政院的提案委員 鍾嘉賓 李昆城 沈花卉委員有提案那是不是就是那個"},{"start":6203.198,"end":6230.106,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員有沒有要做那個補充沒有 一樣一樣齁 那昆城也照行政院版齁好 那第40條之一那我們就照行政院提案通過齁那我們進入到第41條也是行政院提案委員鍾嘉斌 李昆城 沈花卫有提案那請問在現場的委員有沒有其他的那個補充意見"},{"start":6232.387,"end":6257.229,"text":"好那如果沒有那如果沒有其他的意見第41條我們就照行政院提案通過好謝謝來那我們我們針對那個剛才通過的互代決議那我們那個國際金融那我們是不是請那個議事人員那個宣讀"},{"start":6259.642,"end":6285.506,"text":"委員紅33等三人針對國際金融業務條例提出附帶決議請金融監督管理委員會一個月內提出亞洲資產管理中心未來之法規鬆綁規劃及時程關乎包括國際保險業務分公司OIU商品及業務之推動宣告完畢好 謝謝 現在協商完成那是不是請大家那個"},{"start":6291.374,"end":6294.172,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6296.209,"end":6324.386,"text":"宣讀宗家兵委員等三人所提附帶決議 其金融監務管理委員會於國際金融業務條例第22條之七關乎OSU租稅優惠屆期前會同財政部評估是否續行延長租稅優惠並評估是否構成有害租稅慣例不公平租稅及造成不公平競爭納入稅市支出評估報告 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6331.792,"end":6349.985,"text":"請各位委員對以上的這個提案兩件案件附帶決議有沒有什麼其他的一個建議沒有的話那我們就照這個這個照提案通過那就是我們那個就是協調協調完成"},{"start":6359.598,"end":6360.018,"text":"黨團的代替"},{"start":6384.153,"end":6397.064,"text":"明天是宮廷會宮廷會我們簽到就好 不必幹什麼不用幹什麼"},{"start":6415.877,"end":6423.545,"text":"謝謝大家協商已經完成請議事人員先讀協商的結論宣讀國際金融業務條例協商結論第13條維持現行條文第22條之7維持現行條文第22條之16照行政提案通過並通過兩個附帶決議"},{"start":6436.867,"end":6450.178,"text":"證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法協商結論第10條之一造行政院提案通過並通過附帶決議一項第20條造行政院提案通過第32條維持現行條文第40條之一及第41條均造行政院提案通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":6467.52,"end":6483.838,"text":"好 請問各位委員對協商的結論有沒有意義沒有好 沒有意義那我們就照協商結論通過本次會議做成如下的決議國際金融業務條例部分條文修正草案等八案那已經審查完略"},{"start":6486.078,"end":6500.669,"text":"並按一句審查報告提報宴會討論宴會討論前不需交由黨團協商宴會討論時有本席補充說明那請問各位委員對以上的決議有沒有異議"},{"start":6503.745,"end":6531.754,"text":"請問各位委員對以上的決議有沒有意義好沒有意義那我們就通過證件投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案等9案審查完畢並按一句審查報告提報宴會討論宴會討論前不需交由黨團協商宴會討論時有本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上的決議有沒有意義"},{"start":6532.898,"end":6536.58,"text":"好沒有異議那我們就通過那散會"},{"start":6561.067,"end":6564.991,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"162439","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162439","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9497f45d8ea2dbddb023e49d939498c5a643b132f871dcdd8f21262aa761bdb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:20:12 - 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司法改革不能是菁英內部的討論而應是全民參與的實踐謝謝大家大家辛苦了 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162448","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162448","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9ce5c79099c39f3ff465e86193f4d4ac4643b132f871dcdd8a5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:38:39 - 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我覺得這個是一個公開的一個資訊 它並沒有因為有一些一定階層它是屬於公開的這個資訊 所以"},{"start":250.353,"end":276.165,"text":"可是公開資訊應該不包括身份證字號吧出生年月日我想這些資訊其實是鉅細靡遺我跟部長報告就是我看到這份報告書之後我其實心裡面很擔心因為我覺得我們的國軍電修之通電軍裡面的這些夥伴們不管是軍職或是約聘僱人員他們的資訊"},{"start":277.975,"end":299.581,"text":"是公開的如果說裡面有些資訊可能是老舊的或是可能根本不存在沒有關係但是假設這些裡面有相當高程度是屬實的更何況已經看到了蔡某長的您的個資都在裡面這真的讓我感到很驚訝的是我們這麼重要的這個"},{"start":301.863,"end":308.859,"text":"軍中的這樣的一個自動電軍的這個指揮部裡面怎麼可能會有這麼多的訊息會是外露"},{"start":310.745,"end":332.52,"text":"那我們也曉得其實從去年其實就有新聞有說當時國防部政風是讓情報員用本名申報財產當時也造成一些資料外洩那麼更早之前其實我們的健保資料也都有外洩那麼所以呢其實這些案子到目前為止都還沒有查到一個水落石出也不知道說這些資料從哪裡洩露的"},{"start":334.821,"end":353.891,"text":"所以有關於我們軍中人員的這個各自的保護本行是認為非常的重要那麼請問現在國防部對於相關的國防或情報資料尤其是對於人員各自外系有沒有什麼樣的防堵措施我想主要你們有沒有檢討"},{"start":355.214,"end":380.049,"text":"對我想我們外部各自的管控我們應該要繼續來加強那內部的這個黨制的稽查我們要加強然後相關的這個保護的機制我們也要來進行好吧我聽了部長講我覺得那都是感覺還蠻空的我現在就回到法治層面來看依照情報工作法裡面的規定那麼資通電軍指揮部看起來應該是屬於我們這邊講的情報機關是吧"},{"start":385.64,"end":409.216,"text":"所以我們是屬於適同情報機關適同情報機關因為在你們主管國家情報事項範圍內我現在問的比較general就是說是那麼在這個資通電軍指揮部裡面是不是所有的人員都是適同情報人員還是說你們中間也是只有少部分的人還是屬於我們情報工作法裡面所規範的情報人員應該是限於那個"},{"start":414.261,"end":442.471,"text":"包委員這個部分是限於這個從事網路相關工作的同仁所以並不是所有的同仁那麼但是呢大家接下來看情報協助人員其實也是受到情報工作法裡面的規範那麼在這次因為我們有看到其實在這份報告書裡面這個皮膚漢書的報告書裡面他們也有揭露一些支持這個我們自動電機指揮部裡面的相關的公司"},{"start":443.391,"end":471.787,"text":"机关那就现在的这些被被揭露的这些公司或是机关其实因为这也涉及到就是他们未来可能以后也很难在可能跟大陆做生意或者是说他们可能已经被威胁心生恐惧以后也不敢做国防部的生意了就是说有关于像这种长期支援支持国防部的这些公司"},{"start":472.849,"end":474.76,"text":"那麼我們有沒有一些什麼保護的措施"},{"start":475.902,"end":503.487,"text":"就除了我們講的人員之外來我們看一下這個下面這次在皮膚看素裡面的報告裡面講台灣自通電軍支撐單位的情況包含神通 金城 序聊 登峰數位科技以至於中山科學研究院都在他們這份報告書裡面已經揭露的說這些都是支持台灣自通電軍的"},{"start":505.668,"end":521.636,"text":"我想這是屬於公開招標的一個範圍跟你報告一下這個部分這些公司都是我們公開招標針對一般一般沒有敏感機敏性的這些範疇領域的這些作業的公司"},{"start":522.586,"end":550.749,"text":"是但是因為他們現在已經被列入在可能會被大陸懲治的對象那麼我想基本上我們當然是希望能夠全力的支持我們台灣的資通電機指揮部然後以及保護所有的工作同仁那以及可能這個支持資通電機指揮部的相關資訊系統設備公司可是呢其實他們現在可能所受到的"},{"start":552.51,"end":575.327,"text":"潛在的損失還不知道因為已經被點名了就像我們現在看到的這些人員不管他們是不是有這批人但是萬一真的事後又有很多的個資被洩漏出去那麼對於這些個資洩漏出去我們在現在情報工作法裡面有沒有對於這些人員的個資洩漏有給予他們一定的損失補償"},{"start":577.834,"end":591.807,"text":"跟委員報告我想您現在所提的都是中國對我們進行這樣的一個相關的心理戰來造成我們的一些希望來動搖我們的軍事時期我想我們還是會持續堅持這個"},{"start":594.269,"end":613.19,"text":"我們應該有的努力來確保國家安全您這樣子一直在我現在是說我希望這報告書裡面的都不是事實那我只是說從一個很基本的很general的角度來看這件事情"},{"start":614.031,"end":624.186,"text":"因為在我們情報工作法裡面其實它的規範基本上可以分兩階段一個是前端的風險管理一個是後端的危機處理但是我們看一下第24條的規定"},{"start":626.529,"end":644.234,"text":"在我們第二十四條的規定裡面萬一情報人員他的省的身份揭露或是在受工作有受傷失能死亡這裡面給予的撫恤的補償是指他們在境外發生這邊沒有涉及到就是說萬一他們的個資洩露"},{"start":645.373,"end":672.816,"text":"的情況之下 如果說我們剛剛講資通電軍指揮部裡面相關人員他們也是同事情報人員但他們現在的個資可能有被洩露他們的隱私受到侵害那麼在我們現行法裡面有沒有什麼機制是可以去保護他們的或是給予他們一定的損失補償因為很可能這些人以後找不到工作"},{"start":675.689,"end":682.194,"text":"就是在現行制度上面我想請問蔡某長你們過去有研究相關的人員的保護嗎"},{"start":683.576,"end":711.136,"text":"我想相關的這個國軍在從事相關的機敏業務的時候都會有這個他們應該要理解我們要做一個風險的一個管控跟管理這是應該的那至於委員提到的這個勤工法的相關規定它必須是要治受傷失能或死亡嗎而且要在境外現在我們的問題就是不管在境外或境內都必須要治受傷失能或死亡啊"},{"start":712.555,"end":728.937,"text":"對所以我就說這就是現行規定看起來沒有辦法涵蓋到如果在境內因為涉及到個資的洩漏然後影響到他的行動自由隱私權等這些問題我們現在的法律制度上面有沒有哪一塊是可以去"},{"start":730.069,"end":754.707,"text":"保護 或者是給予這些受到損害的情報人員 給他們一定的補償跟委員報告 我想這個個資的外洩所造成的情況也不是只有今天這宗電競這個案子所有國軍相關的 還有所有其他的人員都會有這樣子的一個狀況所以這個如果說你要認為要檢討的話 那應該要做通販性的檢討"},{"start":757.489,"end":768.139,"text":"那所以國防部過去一直都沒有針對這個部分做通盤性檢討嗎我想一般的如果說不涉及到情報工作的各自外線那可能他有另外一個比較簡單的處理方式可是這件事情很嚴重"},{"start":772.062,"end":800.332,"text":"因為它已經涉及到就是可能已經類似等同於情報業務情報工作的人員的各自外泄但是我們看起來我們現在沒有任何的法規可以處理然後更何況說我們現在講的情報協助情報工作人員它的範圍還只是限定在自然人但是不要忘記了我們現在看到很多的資通訊的設備公司等等都一一的被點名出來了"},{"start":802.059,"end":819.772,"text":"那他們所提供的服務所提供的這些會不會也是廣泛來說可能也是屬於協助情報工作那這些公司他們未來可能會受到的這個損失要由誰來承擔他們自己就吸收嗎"},{"start":823.015,"end":848.087,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們會依據情報公眾法的規定來採取一些身份隱匿跟掩護的相關措施那這個部分已經在建立應該就會盡快來完成來做這些相關的這個保護的隱匿跟掩護的這個機制好我最後再講一句話就是說我其實在看這份報告書的時候我真的是心裡面是真的非常擔心我們的這個"},{"start":852.237,"end":879.044,"text":"自通電軍指揮部裡面的這些人員們他們的安危那麼我本來也不願意相信說是裡面的可能一些內容是屬實的但是當我發現我們去看Google馬上Google這個相關的處所照片是一致的然後甚至今天也看到參謀長您的身份資料都在裡面對那我們國家到底給這些自通電軍弟兄們我們有沒有一個充足的保護"},{"start":880.646,"end":907.604,"text":"然後還有一些支援的公司也一一被點名出來那未來他們所受到的營業上這個相關的損失要由誰來來負負擔還是說這些公司他們就自行吸收了那最後呢因為剛剛部長講說你們有針對現在國軍的各自外卸有在進行延期了嗎或者是說我今天也希望就是國防部是不是可以兩個禮拜之內給我一份你們對於"},{"start":912.406,"end":931.151,"text":"這個確保這個國軍人員的各自外泄的防堵機制以及我剛剛講的針對這個在情報工作法裡面有關於這個情報人員的各自外泄到底是不是用情報工作法裡面的相關水質補償如果沒有的話未來你們要怎麼檢討要怎麼樣提出相關的補償機制可以請部長兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告嗎"},{"start":939.074,"end":944.961,"text":"我們再請鐘建軍再跟委員聯絡好不好好 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nd":112.913,"text":"所以我們可以平衡一下我們整個戰備任務跟軍機的許可的狀況第二件事情就是部長馬阿祖到高雄航線已經飛了其實這一個航線我們主要還是為了軍人因為那邊在南部的軍事兵大概有一半那我也希望國防部在票價的部分能夠在預算上做個適合的一個調整讓他們回家的路能夠更近部長可以嗎"},{"start":116.277,"end":143.102,"text":"差不多三分之二都是官兵喔?三分之二都是官兵啊?好不好?鮑委員我們了解,那個入侵部已經在編列相關的預算未來看怎麼樣?沒有的話先雲枝流用都可以嘛,好不好?這個讓馬防部的官兵能夠順利的能夠回家,好不好?這個行業畢竟不容易,你不要隨便讓他再關閉好不好?好,謝謝,請回...部長最近啊,大陸解放軍東部戰區演習"},{"start":145.558,"end":167.005,"text":"我想請問一下,我們台灣這邊也在做兵推,那金門馬祖,尤其我關心的是馬祖地區,四個鄉五個島,那麼整體的戰略規劃,兵推的結果是怎麼樣?你能夠告訴我們?還是部長你無法回答,請適當的人員來回答我的問題?"},{"start":168.143,"end":189.925,"text":"您講的是指這兩天民間做的兵推還是我們?你們在前兩個禮拜在馬祖做過兵推,就防衛韌性的演習那個是屬於城鎮韌性的那個部分城鎮韌性的部分,我想他是從韌性的角度,由內政部那邊來"},{"start":191.787,"end":210.533,"text":"主導有關,當然還有行政院會做協調,然後做一個有關早上會議題式的併推,下午會實作,這個是屬於陳正任心的部分現在馬祖的軍力,這兩四動大炮部署在北竿南竿"},{"start":212.213,"end":234.41,"text":"那麼他裝填砲彈要一分鐘,最少要一分鐘他準備的時間很久,要半個鐘頭到幾個小時準備的時間,裝填砲彈所以你第一集出去以後,馬上會被鎖定第二集的話可能都打不出去,這個要注意好不好要五家呢,大概裝填的時間比較快一點"},{"start":235.66,"end":247.836,"text":"那現在就是說在南竿裡面部署的雷霆2000,雷霆2000大概是自走式的,打了就可以跑,這個是比較好。目前它的模組有MK15、MK30、MK45,這個火力大概比較強。"},{"start":252.898,"end":281.666,"text":"那我現在在意的是什麼呢在意的是當作戰發生的時候我們台灣這邊國防部對我們整個馬祖馬祖有可能與本島隔絕那我們目前的兵力及戰略國防部有沒有做一個妥適的規劃怎麼樣來救援馬祖跟委員報告我想相關的這些有關我們的"},{"start":282.906,"end":308.451,"text":"防衛作戰的運用,應該不適宜在這個公開的場合來做出我知道,你能夠回答就回答,不能回答當然就不用回答我想應該是不適宜在這裡做一個回答目前因為我們也擔心,尤其東引這個島你也知道我們也部署了雄風、天宮都在那邊尤其是雄風"},{"start":309.813,"end":332.721,"text":"目前中共解放軍海軍的基地啊,他在寧德那邊是第15支隊在那邊他的潛水艇要出來啊,會經過東引,會看得到他從潛水艇從那邊出來要攻打台灣的時候啊,那個地方一定看得到看得到我們雄風如果第一級出去的話,我們面臨的問題東引會不會毀滅因為我們從96年的非戰危機有沒有"},{"start":337.04,"end":359.007,"text":"現在中共軍方那邊已經解密了,他們有100個將軍在那邊沉浸一個江津島,幹什麼?針對我們東莒地區東莒地區幹什麼?我們現在也知道,他準備要燒一旦來打這個島然後進在西莒,然後進在南甘,我們現在已經知道了"},{"start":359.927,"end":389.142,"text":"所以在東隱這個地方,如果他的潛水艇出沒的話潛水艇出沒的話,讓我們雄豐再出去當然對潛水艇是致命的打擊但是你致命的第一擊以後,我們整個東隱島就完蛋了所以你們對東隱地區也好,東隱地區的居民到目前為止有沒有收容安置或是防空洞避難等等有沒有做類似的一個演習是不是請部長回答"},{"start":391.251,"end":415.188,"text":"我想我們關於整個兵力的布置的部分,還是請委員能夠諒解我們的防衛作戰的內容應該還是屬於機敏的,應該沒有辦法民眾暫時的避難疏散,我想整體的部分我們會在陳正任性的時候,會做一個相關的演練"},{"start":416.129,"end":443.062,"text":"因為我今天的質詢是提醒部長您注意一下這個兩岸之間現在兵兇戰委他的演習區域不曉得在哪裡當然我也呼籲他們因為彼岸那邊大部分都是我們的親友也都是我們馬祖人的親戚馬祖人的居民大部分也都是從那個地方搬過來的所以希望就是說不要對我們馬祖來動手我常常也呼籲他們"},{"start":444.002,"end":469.148,"text":"但是我們在防衛能力的部分,我們還是要有準備,因為到目前為止我所了解的,當然因為這是機敏的問題嘛我所了解的資料當然是遼禄支長非常的清楚,因為常年在那邊嘛,軍人跟我們同島一命在96年的時候,我們子彈都已經發到每一個家戶,18歲以上的我們壯丁幾乎都有步槍都在手上"},{"start":470.228,"end":494.867,"text":"但是你們一旦作戰,你們要考慮到我們民眾的問題不是說阿兵哥在那邊做兵推啊所以民眾任性演習的部分,我希望國防部跟內政部你們也能夠納入好不好部長是,尤其民眾的這個暫時疏散避難的這個部分是屬於我們你們要做妥適的規劃好不好是,我們任性的一環另外就是這個,跟你提一下靶場的事情,北竿靶場"},{"start":497.587,"end":516.097,"text":"陸軍常務長曾經也允諾我,這個靶場已經往前目前先暫處的一個措施,也就是說推到75公尺,原來是300公尺我常常講一句話,現在的作戰不是用步槍,現在的作戰都是用火箭跟飛彈"},{"start":518.138,"end":535.41,"text":"光打到步槍的時候,以我們的兵力要跟敵軍要對幹的話,應該是機會非常的渺茫但是我們暫時的演練,平常的演練一定是必備的啦,一定是必備的你目前南竿柱羅靶場"},{"start":537.008,"end":557.87,"text":"南竿的兵力比北竿來的多嘛,它的靶場也是個小靶場,也沒有300公尺啊那你北竿那邊少部的兵力,加上來台灣輪修,然後在營區又輪修,剩下兵力所剩無幾啊,是不是所以你那個靶場需要在市中心也就是淡黃的區塊"},{"start":559.475,"end":584.858,"text":"來做這麼大規模的一個靶場有必要嗎所以我建議在歷次的總質詢裡面,建議能夠移到遷移到別的地方當然我在這個院會也總質詢了好幾次,都沒有人回答我這個問題不過顧部長謝謝您,我本來說要躺在那邊跟你們對幹但我想自己人嘛,是不是"},{"start":586.136,"end":611.625,"text":"總算今年元旦已經把這個風頭,參謀長這個英明的領導,把這個風頭已經避過了所以參謀長還跟我講說,再一起到北竿勘察一次我敢去嗎?我說你不要命我會死耶,你知道嗎?那個民間的壓力很大你想想看,部長,我跟你報告過了周邊是什麼?醫院、國中、國小"},{"start":613.067,"end":634.264,"text":"長照中心你每天那個子彈在那邊砰砰砰在那邊打如果你是個病人,你是個學生在上課上一半這個在那邊打的話你受得了嗎所以這個遷移是勢在必行也謝謝部長陸軍那邊給我說五年的時間遷移部長能不能明確回答我一下這個問題"},{"start":636.179,"end":654.34,"text":"我想我們就如在這裡講的,我們革音牆已經開始施作,就這個遷移的地點我們會盡快來進行探測,然後規劃來進行完成他現在是什麼?只花了五百萬要做一個革音牆?"},{"start":655.598,"end":672.26,"text":"做個隔音牆只做75公尺,本來想說這把牆就75公尺,我沒想到還是一樣,還是300公尺而且那一棟老舊的建築物,我本來說把它拆掉,因為我們馬祖已經光光立現了"},{"start":673.542,"end":687.022,"text":"你那個很突兀的一個老舊建築物擺在那個地方,是不像啊,你知道嗎,影響到我們的觀光,也影響到我們市民市區的安全。部長能不能在這個部分你們從長計做一個改善好不好?"},{"start":688.924,"end":716.708,"text":"隔音牆的部分我再請他們陸軍做個評估,那有關其他地點的探勘跟相關的規劃我們再來部長能不能請陸軍在一個月之內再向我做一次簡報可以嗎?是,我想到委員那邊跟委員請教,我想陸軍應該會來做我的問政,我一直在挺國防部,我一直都是挺軍人的"},{"start":717.515,"end":736.223,"text":"我想部長您到任沒多久,我想所有的軍人他們都了然於胸我對軍人是非常支持的,我的父親也是軍人,也是陸關畢業的我以前從小就住在眷村,耳濡目染,我對軍人的尊敬無以復加"},{"start":737.443,"end":762.613,"text":"所以最近提出來什麼阿兵哥要優先等等,我們馬哈祖的軍人也提出來說他們在馬哈祖坐船、坐飛機能不能也優先因為馬哈祖的位置真的是非常少,飛機的定位、船的定位非常的少這一點我也請縣政府這邊去做研究部長你對軍人也拜託多照顧一下好不好是"},{"start":764.184,"end":791.178,"text":"最後一個問題就是金門大膽已經開放了,開放觀光了馬祖這邊高登我數過去大概不到多少人因為精敏資料我也不方便在這邊跟你報告但是我知道是多少人那你人數非常有限有沒有機會高登能夠開放觀光像比照大膽的模式能不能做一個研究"},{"start":794.147,"end":819.462,"text":"向您報告這個案子馬防部他也做過評估因為高登他的地理條件和大膽其實也不太相同那馬防部初步的評估是如果開放觀光還是有一些對軍事安全上潛在的威脅那也在2月16號有把相關的評估報告有含文到這個縣府去那後續我們會再因應整個環境上的"},{"start":821.063,"end":845.262,"text":"實際的狀況隨時來做一些相關的判斷參謀長,據我的了解高登的彼岸是連江、黃崎、台陸、北郊最接近我們是北郊跟台陸那裡沒有什麼兵力了福州軍區撤銷以後變成東部戰區兵力不多"},{"start":846.684,"end":870.842,"text":"兵力不多,對我們高登島的威脅,而且他對馬祖敵意也沒那麼強啦,我說實在話敵意沒那麼強因為兩岸互動的非常的好,尤其民間我們互動的非常好所以打我們的機會,除了政治上的意涵,我想在軍事上是毫無意義的我評估工島馬祖的機率,應該我們如果沒有"},{"start":871.702,"end":890.649,"text":"用飛彈火箭去攻擊人家,大概暫時發生的可能性,我個人的評估應該是蠻小的。所以在這個時間點,我覺得高登如果適時的開放,其實你們很多的坑道、部隊,你看以前在北竿、南竿,有100個傘兵坑的據點,也就是機槍連等等。"},{"start":895.709,"end":906.954,"text":"這都沒有啦 現在剩一個到兩個啦 據點啦剩一個到兩個了那你這樣已經不服防衛的需求了吧對不起你的我能夠"},{"start":908.188,"end":936.998,"text":"能夠做一個觀光在戰時的時候這些據點也不會荒廢嘛是不是部隊進入據點馬上就可以作戰啦這對軍方來講也是好事啊你們不能夠從觀光的這個方向去考慮這個問題嗎是不是一旦他們攻打過來南竿北竿有兵力能夠支援高登嗎也支援不了啊也支援不了啊那你不如開放觀光是不是老百姓在有觀光客在那個島上"},{"start":938.117,"end":965.492,"text":"他們解放軍也不會輕易的發射火箭或是發射砲彈來打嘛是不是現在都是用火箭啦我剛才講的兩次動大砲,155加砲因為莊田的速度還有目前衛星的監測這種的火力都已經慢慢要淘汰了所以當然希望你們在防衛任性的部分對馬祖的部署希望能夠加強而且要注意好不好部長"},{"start":966.516,"end":988.19,"text":"那個當然今天最重要的還是一個是飛機啦,經濟能夠支援我們還有這個大大腦開放的問題,好不好還有這個靶場的問題,希望部長能夠用心回去的時候能夠幫我們想一想辦法能夠做一些改善跟解決,部長可以嗎?我會請他們來進行研議再去跟我報告這樣好,謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"162441","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162441","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c959a191cc5d2637fc465e86193f4d4ac4643b132f871dcdd8a4b7ee112536bc485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:22:29 - 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在場的委員先進 列席的政務機關事長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請顧部長 還有黃副參謀總長執行官 以及中科院的李中將 李院長有請部長 還有處長 謝謝 還有院長 謝謝所有中委"},{"start":21.361,"end":32.371,"text":"部長好那麼我們副參謀長長好久不見還有我們的李院長好那今天呢我們來談的就是最近很紅的無人載具來 我們想看"},{"start":33.53,"end":56.664,"text":"最近 今天到今天為止 還在辦一個民間自辦的台海兵推結果媒體的報紙呢 有兩種評價一個是說 哎呀 這個美日台重大兵推 落差結果呢 台灣組拿不出辦法出來另外一個是 台海兵推 那個中共挑釁 我們按兵不動請問 這個有 部長知道這個兵推嗎有在關注嗎"},{"start":59.864,"end":75.971,"text":"我想我們了解有民間這樣辦的一個那你也了解有這三個國家的一些退役的將領來參加吧當然相關的訊息也有掌握那你覺得他們這樣的兵推是不是有助於全民對於我們戰略模擬的一個認知"},{"start":77.408,"end":98.391,"text":"我想相關的這個民間的兵推,自辦的兵推,我們在他們兵推結束之後,我們會索取相關的資料,都會納入我們的參考。是的,我想部長這樣非常開明,因為國防不是只有職業軍人的事情,不是國防部的事情,是全民都要來關注,是不是?"},{"start":99.594,"end":109.42,"text":"是 我想大家都關心國航是一件好事好 來 最近在上週最熱門的就是烏克蘭的豬網行動部長你認為它是一個敵後滲透攻擊還是一個戰場的對敵反制我想這個應該顯示就是說無人機的這個運用在烏克蘭戰爭裡面顯示它已經產生了一些"},{"start":125.339,"end":146.543,"text":"他對其他國家的參考應該是已經起了一些關鍵性的思維的轉換然後整個作戰的思維都值得我們來加以參佐簡單用兩個話這個會造成的是說台灣可以用無人機驅逐中國還是中國可以用無人機來恐攻台灣你覺得哪一個可能性比較大"},{"start":152.971,"end":163.878,"text":"我看的是一身冷汗,你可能不變膽,有人看的,哇,烏克蘭好啊,以小即大,但是我看的是剛好相反,我覺得台灣更容易陷入這樣的一個敵後的滲透攻擊,你認為呢?"},{"start":165.832,"end":181.546,"text":"我想對於共軍各型無人機的一些研製跟應用的這個狀況,我們都要納入評估。那我們延續之後,我們對於可能的威脅,我們都有掌握。"},{"start":184.828,"end":208.038,"text":"不但是要掌握,還要進行研析,然後要加以應對其實這個無人機的生產攻擊,它會開始走向都市游擊對話這是一個媒體的報導,用3D列印就可以幫一個恐怖組織去投射彈藥這邊也提到了中國本身也開始設置了一個無人機的專修室換言之說,今天所謂的俗稱過去稱的第五重對照潛伏到台灣來以台灣現有的開放"},{"start":209.719,"end":216.186,"text":"民間的材料腐蝕極德只要有人員進來他就可以自行組裝很多不需要大型的軍武工廠是不是這樣子很有可能啊他在3D列印在你台灣這邊做啦"},{"start":225.94,"end":240.347,"text":"跟委員報告就是說,我想對於這樣子的一個無人機的整個的運用依照這個烏克蘭之前發動的,它必須要花費相當長的一個時間對,潛伏很久,籌劃很久沒有錯,它需要相當的潛伏跟運量"},{"start":244.389,"end":260.862,"text":"物資的調度人員的安排然後來一個奇襲的攻擊對不對所以我們有相當程度的掌握我想我們會來也要來緩緩這樣子的一個狀況但是以台灣目前的情況要製造無人機不成問題但要比較難取得"},{"start":261.826,"end":287.085,"text":"所以這種情況之下如果敵方要做敵後的滲透攻擊他首先的就是彈藥讓他來取得是我們軍品彈藥的防竊或者說杜絕走私製造就變得很重要軍品彈藥防竊是國防部責務旁帶杜絕走私製造這個就需要其他行政部門包括海巡包括警方的配合請問國防部有沒有思考到這個部分對於在他們潛入到台灣來取得在民間取得暴利業務的這個可能性有沒有辦法去防堵"},{"start":287.825,"end":302.416,"text":"有沒有做一個這樣的管理跟思維就我們現在的槍八彈藥刀血管制條例的這個管制上來講的話彈藥的生產製造尤其火工部門的話都是軍備局跟工科院才可以製造嘛所以它的防竊很重要嘛"},{"start":303.257,"end":331.002,"text":"怕被人家偷走嘛好萊塢的電影都是去偷軍火來幹恐怖攻擊嘛對不對也就是說我們民間並沒有這樣子的一個彈藥的囤儲是所以說未來的軍品彈藥防竊非常重要避免被對後做敵後滲透攻擊的時候拿來取材好 往下看所以在另外我們面對這個機敏設施關鍵設施預防斬首擊殺無人機我們要軟硬兼施嘛軟殺跟硬殺嘛但是軟殺跟硬殺現在發生一個問題了光纖導引的無人機它沒辦法軟殺怎麼辦"},{"start":333.035,"end":358.312,"text":"我們有沒有做各種的毛與頓的砂盤推演不可能像美軍一樣為了打兩百美元的無人機用三百萬美元的飛彈去打嘛 不可能嘛反制無人機的這個部分現在當然一方面進展得也相當快就是說如同委員在這邊有提到的這個軟砂的部分 硬砂的部分那硬砂的部分當然還有包括有這個煉炮還有這個雷射等等的這些高"},{"start":361.553,"end":383.022,"text":"高科技的這種進步現在都在我們密注關注的範圍也在我們要努力來籌貨的這個部分所以反制無人機確實是我們現在當然的一個建軍的一個重點項目之一就有人說他用光鮮的因為光鮮很貴光鮮的無人機來跟你做群攻不划算他用光鮮的把你的耳目先打掉"},{"start":383.702,"end":407.873,"text":"讓你的軟殺或讓你的硬殺沒有辦法去找到目標但是光線也有一定的距離的限制所以很怕他的敵後陣後攻擊我們怕的就是這一點他這個部分就是他要到底的這個作戰地境所以呢就是說我們現在在說是不是要有一個無人機載具的古土防衛學院這樣一個民間智庫如果有人在推動這樣的民間智庫國防部的態度是怎麼樣是支持還是不樂見"},{"start":409.461,"end":435.828,"text":"我想無人載具的部分我們整個是我們軍民整合現在裡面重要的一環所以我們不只是我們中科院也好軍備局也好那我們現在不但要釋出這個相關的這個關鍵的一些技術給到民間那我們也希望跟民間一起來合作那最重要當然就是說我們要建立我們這個相關的無人載具的一個自准能量"},{"start":436.408,"end":457.476,"text":"那另外也要引進相關不同的科技來進行這個迭代創新因為現在不只是無人機還有無人艇然後剩下水下的無人載具這個都可能是在隨著這樣子的一個科技的進步那麼形成這樣一定的戰力之後,納入我們籌購的範圍之後"},{"start":459.137,"end":487.565,"text":"可以應用成為我們作戰應用我想這裡要提醒部長跟各位這個國防重要的領導人其實呢無人機不是只是一個裝備也不是一個科技它會整個顛覆我們的戰法跟戰術也就是說就跟我們的潛塘槍改為有後方裝彈之後整個部邊的陣列就不一樣了所以這個部分不能只是有裝備科技的延伸還要有整個使用思維的改變那這點我是跟部長做這樣的建議"},{"start":488.645,"end":507.104,"text":"無人機確實是有部署靈活還有一個戰術運用的彈性甚至有通訊中繼等等這樣子的一些功能特性所以它確實是對戰力裡面現在重要的一環所以不是只有裝備跟科技的研發而已還有包括運用的技巧所以現在除了這個之外我們軍品採購的思維也要改變我們過去這幾年來"},{"start":513.01,"end":525.122,"text":"立法院支持我們國防預算編了很多購置無人機無人載具的預算但是這個買來是當作編裝的裝備使用但是編裝的裝備你知道嗎阿兵哥他是敢去動嗎掉一下下來就幾十萬幾百萬欸幾百萬欸所以也就是說我們現在採購的思維應該把訓練教育"},{"start":532.449,"end":556.114,"text":"跟未來的戰備應用做兩套的思維也就是說就像我們空軍一樣不可能一來的飛官就飛直接的一個第一線戰機他一定有教練機也一定有其他的前置的訓練所以其實要增加無人機的採購規模委外的教育訓練這一塊可以提供民間很大的商機換言之我來接受你軍方要委託的無人機的飛手訓練飛機我提供"},{"start":558.354,"end":579.723,"text":"摔壞了我負責我甚至可以找保險不要列入我們軍品當中的品項是要做維護的拿來打仗的是一個拿來訓練的是一個那這個部分呢可以大量的擴充我們軍用商規的無人機的生產也就是說我們軍事採購的那些編制數就有限嘛沒有打仗你沒有損耗你不會增加但是我們的教育訓練是經常會有損耗的"},{"start":581.284,"end":602.879,"text":"所以把教育訓練外包出去之後它的損耗自然會形成一個供應鏈下一個我們來看一下所以本土的供應鏈去紅供應鏈一定要有足夠的市場規模我之前對於軍兵採購不斷的提出如果我們沒有足夠的採購規模我們的廠商我們的國人我們的技術做得到但他不會投資就像拿光電球kimbo來說好了"},{"start":603.78,"end":619.465,"text":"目前我們無人機偵測最重要的光電球哪個地方生產最好東歐生產最好台灣要不要投入產線來製造做得到但是呢沒有那個量你沒有一年一千顆的量你投資那個產線不划算但是國防部有辦法每年買一千組嗎"},{"start":620.385,"end":640.436,"text":"不可能所以要對外去擴充這個無人機的市場對內我們要創造我們軍用商規無人機的使用機會不是打仗才來用教育訓練演習就來用那這些裝備你可以用怎樣用租賃的用教育服務租賃的不是用購買的這樣才能擴大我們無人機供應商的市場部長您同不同意"},{"start":641.557,"end":666.981,"text":"跟委員報告,現在有好幾個,您剛剛問的問題有好幾個層次,第一個是無人機的訓練這個部分我們本來就已經有出街的,我們運用一些小型損耗力高的這些無人機來進行出街的一個訓練然後進而再進階,所以我們陸軍成立無人機訓練中心,海軍陸戰隊事實上也有訓練中心,這是一塊另外擴大這個本土的供應鏈的這個部分,就是我們現在正在進行的,也就是說"},{"start":667.721,"end":680.145,"text":"要如何達到拳擊飛鴻這樣的一個概念的話包括整個不管是控制的單元或者是通訊的單元相關的這些晶片或者馬達還有電池等等這些的話我想真正能夠在地生產這個就是我們現在的目標我想現在要這個"},{"start":694.669,"end":713.785,"text":"從院裡面到國安部,然後到這個大家都在努力的事,就這樣子事實上中共也提出一個共版的,一個通用共版的無人機,也就是說不只是軍方民間,民間有一個共版的一個架構,那麼到了暫時的時候呢,我們加裝我們所需要的這個"},{"start":715.286,"end":738.231,"text":"這個軟體進去以後就可以做一個軍用,所以把這個生產的能量放入在民間然後讓民間有一個自主的能量的產生,這是我們現在正在大體研究的方向然後另外當然要打入國際的供應鏈,那這個部分我想跟其他一個周邊的國家都有相當的共識,但是詳細的情形可能不便加以說明"},{"start":738.251,"end":761.81,"text":"部長 其實您講得很完整 但我只有一個提醒因為無人採取這個很特殊它不是一個軍備的 傳統軍備 需要由軍火工廠來生產它是一個軍用可以商規 商規也可以商用所以有這麼多的民間部門 有工業技術研究院 技術中心有傳播研究中心 有其他大專院校現在我所知道有三所國立大學 就是我們分別成立的三個研發中心"},{"start":762.71,"end":786.142,"text":"這些都可以來協助商用軍規的無人機的研發當然它也有它商用的市場所以無人機的研發不一定要由中科院來我要強調一次其他的飛彈 那個民間沒有在用飛彈的啦但是無人機民間用的很多所以商用軍規 軍用商規的無人機其實可以有第二條的一個研發的一個機構所以我希望部長這邊能夠跟行政院反映我們來籌組一個無人載具的研發中心來開發這種商規的無人機的應用"},{"start":792.385,"end":806.198,"text":"這也有助於我們減輕我們中科院的負荷您同不同意是 我跟委員報告其實你講說飛彈我們民間沒有事實上中科院在生產這個飛彈的過程當中也跟民間有很多非常的合作民間沒有人在用飛彈"},{"start":808.12,"end":823.888,"text":"台積電不會拿飛彈來打因為您講的是一個最後系統或者是一個裝備的成品但我們看的不是這樣子而是看的是一個生態鏈的一個建構那這個飛彈的部分現在當然就是說你最後火工部門還是要交到這個中科研的生產"},{"start":824.808,"end":842.325,"text":"現在有一些關鍵技術也要釋放給民間,讓民間也能夠做所以無人機部分當然是裡面的重要的一環因為主建的無人機的發展是相當的日循日益所以這個部分除了火工部門之外,其他一些特別關鍵的原件這個部分當然要建立在民間嘛"},{"start":842.625,"end":861.42,"text":"所以我們從中國的例子就是因為無人機大疆全國世界的無人機市場大疆佔了絕大部分所以大疆的在初期戰爭被大量來改裝表示什麼商用的商規的都很好用所以呢有民間強大的製造產能我們軍方要使用就選擇餘地很多我的意見就是說要有民間的產能不是啦關鍵就在關鍵元件啦譬如說電池譬如說這些其實您說的關鍵電池馬達這個我們的載體的部分都OK"},{"start":871.227,"end":898.195,"text":"其實籌載的部分比較傷腦筋籌載的光電球傳輸的晶片通訊的晶片這些訊號的防害這個都是問題那是軍規的部分沒有沒有現在就是說你先用商規的部分來進行那軍規的部分呢我們會也失望一定的量人好那最後呢到了一定的時候我們再擴充我想這個部分就可以來建構了好啦那個我因為主因站起來往上一列最後那個其實為什麼要一個研發中心往上就是所謂的通信協定"},{"start":899.555,"end":911.824,"text":"產品的規格標準這些東西才是需要一個研發中心的最後兩個訴求鑑於無人載具及我們戰法的進步迅速請針對推動成立明天智庫組織無人載具的國土防衛來提出評估報告這就提報告而已喔"},{"start":915.367,"end":943.337,"text":"另外呢就於擴大採購無人機的訓練服務並且整合促成一個研發中心也請你們提個報告來評估一下可以嗎跟委員報告事實上這行政院已經在主責了那很好啊你們就把行政院主責的內容可不可以分享一份給我們看如果您需要的話因為這是由副院長在主責的部分如果您想要了解的話就我們就將相關我們有參與的部分是行政院整個在主責就跟行政院索取那就國防部提供"},{"start":943.778,"end":944.342,"text":"是 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謝謝"},{"start":11.357,"end":37.631,"text":"司令委員好部長好 辛苦了先請教一下就是今天的媒體有報導美國的國防部長赫格賽斯他在這個美國聯邦眾議院撥款委員會的國防小組裡面的這個聽證會他有特別提到說中國是美國步步進逼的威脅北京正在印太地區的戰爭做準備嚇阻中國是美國國防部在印太地區的首要任務"},{"start":38.803,"end":54.813,"text":"重點北京正在進行重大軍事擴張並積極演練入侵台灣那我請教一下部長這美國國防部長這句話有新的含義嗎還是他只是把目前的這個事實把它呈示出來"},{"start":55.831,"end":72.058,"text":"美國部長在我看起來他就是呈現兩個一個意涵第一個當然就是說集體嚇阻的概念也就是說以實力來換取和平那麼如果能夠達成一個集體有效嚇阻的一個力量才能夠避免"},{"start":72.958,"end":94.315,"text":"硬態或他在情勢發生任何這一個既有的狀態就是說這個的這個和平穩定的現況的維持那所以要用嚇阻的手段那這個嚇阻的手段呢是集體嚇阻這集體嚇阻當然裡面也包括了對我們的要求就是說要求我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力"},{"start":95.292,"end":112.848,"text":"那關於這個美國國防部長他所講的就是說北京正在進行重大軍事擴張積極演練入侵台灣那這個說法有進一步的的一個含義嗎那還是說跟過去他的說法是差不多的"},{"start":114.382,"end":129.874,"text":"我想我看他整個的全文看起來當然他在描述一個北京正在不斷的持續進行對台灣的軍事恫嚇然後另外的軍事擴張也就是跨過第一島鏈甚至到達第二島鏈這樣子的一個軍事擴張的一個"},{"start":134.077,"end":159.433,"text":"包括拒止外軍等等的這些這樣子的一個一個越來越大規模的這樣的一個演習那也許他有公開也許他沒有公開也許他有命名也許他沒有命名但是不管怎麼樣都可以看得出來他不斷的在從事更大規模的軍事的演習跟這個他的軍事的能力的投射這樣子好"},{"start":159.773,"end":183.733,"text":"因為他的這個參謀首長聯席會主席同樣以書面的聲明表示說這些軍事活動中國的軍事活動是針對台灣規模它的範圍規模複雜性還有頻率都日益增長那這些挑釁的動作呢並非例行的演習是為武統而進行的演練那是不是說美方這邊也擔憂這個中國有可能隨時由嚴轉戰"},{"start":188.797,"end":210.535,"text":"有訓轉站的這個可能性有訓轉也有延轉站或者是直接有訓轉站這個都是我們持續密駐的一個範圍因為我們現在觀察到中國不斷地在台海周邊從事這些有預警式的或者非預警式的這個演習"},{"start":211.375,"end":224.202,"text":"那這些演習也逐步的這個相關的規模也逐步的擴大所以我們對於這個部分的本於料底重寬的原則我們都要來加以這個掌握並且來加以因應這樣子"},{"start":225.811,"end":241.108,"text":"那因為今天是這個我們這個海空戰略提升計畫這個特別預算的一個報告那這個特別預算呢是從111年到115年那當初呢它是依照聯合反制整體防空海上節節的作戰需求編列了"},{"start":243.831,"end":260.208,"text":"2369億5000萬左右那其中呢有八類十項的專案那其中有一項是屬於這個無人供給載具那當然我想請教部長就是說因為這個是110年通過的這個特別條例跟運算那接下來呢接下來這五年都在做這些運算的執行但是呢"},{"start":262.552,"end":273.39,"text":"時間已經在改變了就是說我們在四年前五年前所訂的這個專案到現在為止部長有沒有認為說要做調整的地方您是說無人載具的部分嗎"},{"start":274.076,"end":298.923,"text":"我覺得就整個這個特別預算的部分因為我有看就是說我們當然那時候的111年的這個計畫5年的計畫或許無人機載具它不是一個特別的一個重點它只是其中的一個類向但是呢這個時間不斷的轉移嘛那現在有關於這個無人機這個無人攻擊載具不管是無人機或是無人機"},{"start":299.623,"end":328.476,"text":"無人這個潛艦它可能越來越重要了所以我是想請教部長就是說接下來我們的這個計畫還是按照這個原定的計畫那還是說會特別加強有關無人攻擊載具這部分第一個跟委員報告第一個當然就是說我們的下半年會提出的特別預算主要就是在不對稱戰力還有這個防衛韌性的這一塊那就這個部分無人載具當然是裡面重要的一環你說下半年的特別預算是對"},{"start":329.636,"end":353.107,"text":"對,所以無人載具是我們一個裡面相當重要的一個一環今年下半年會提出特別預算?今年下半年會提出特別預算嗎?那其中會涵蓋無人載具的部分那無人載具,因為之前這個你說是指4100億這個預算?不是,下半年還沒有提出的下半年一個特別的預算?對那個特別預算是什麼樣的特別預算?"},{"start":354.192,"end":373.365,"text":"特別預算也就是說剛剛已經講了我們還是在不對稱戰力跟防衛韌性的建構這些關鍵的戰力的行程那其中不對稱戰力的部分呢那當然有包括相關的這些無人載具包括無人機還有也可能會拉入無人艇這樣子"},{"start":373.945,"end":400.698,"text":"所以下半年論文所提出的特別預算就是以無人的供給載具為主就對了應該不止吧我們像包括我們相關的這些反建的或者是我們應該就是說不斷站立它有一個基本的共同定義就是要機動存活率高致命然後低成本所以我想我們會按照這個方面來做一個規劃然後呢來建構我們足夠所需要的這個量能那"},{"start":401.518,"end":423.084,"text":"這個部分整個是在我們的這個海空戰力特別提升計畫以後之後那我們會繼續的來強化我們不對稱戰力跟這個防衛任性的建構這個當然也有包括一些像指管的系統等等或者是其他的一些相關的一個措施"},{"start":424.265,"end":441.058,"text":"這個部分我們現在還在整個在做檢討那檢討完之後我們下半年會提出來跟委員做一個詳盡的報告那預算規模大概多少我跟委員報告,因為我們現在還沒有最後的定案,是不是容我稍微保留一下"},{"start":441.872,"end":467.009,"text":"那表示就是說我們整個方向會轉成說這一個不對陣戰爭裡面那尤其是包含這個無人攻擊載具應該是說我們一直在朝向不對陣關鍵戰力的建構那因為像剛剛陳委員也提到了這一個無人載具的這個部分那我只是在說明不管是機動的這個反艦機動的防空那麼還有"},{"start":469.931,"end":484.853,"text":"這個以外呢 我們無人載具的部分 基於它現在的這個成為從二五戰爭也好 從各國現在這個無人載具發展的進程來看的話我想我們也會把它納入 成為我們的特別預算的項目之一"},{"start":487.155,"end":511.405,"text":"那七月份的這個漢光演習的話 那會不會特別因應就是說不管我們自己認為說這個中國在由延轉 由迅轉戰的這方面的這個企圖心是越來越強那或是包含這個美國國防部長我剛剛所提到的他們認為說這個現在中國就是這個為了要武統台灣做準備那漢光演習這部分有做什麼樣的一個因應嗎"},{"start":512.526,"end":524.865,"text":"我們漢光演習現在延長為十天,九夜所以我們從灰色地帶的運出一直到加強戒備然後一直到應急作戰"},{"start":527.952,"end":543.881,"text":"就有關於灰色地帶的這個硬組就是有關於它有可能由迅轉眼、油煙轉戰這個項目我們要根據相關的徵喉來做一個判斷然後來不管我們在之前的兵推或以後的這個漢光的實兵驗證我們都會來加以來應該說是一個很務實的來訓練然後根據這一些驗證的結果不斷的進行修調這樣"},{"start":557.623,"end":571.847,"text":"所以這次判官演習的重點就是以防範因應中國過去地帶的侵入為主那你就從什麼全面入侵開始我們現在是拉到更前面就是從灰色地帶的硬處那灰色地帶的硬處就是它現在"},{"start":574.008,"end":583.674,"text":"常常在進行的一種他以訓練的名義演習的名義可是他的規模越來越大的情況之下那我們怎麼判斷這個關鍵的徵喉然後來進行後續我們所應對像我們現在相關的這一些這個立即備戰操演"},{"start":591.858,"end":604.822,"text":"其實目的也就是在訓練我們的能力也就是說你不可以輕忽他的灰色地帶的洗澡認為他是不是一定會一直停在灰色地帶的洗澡我們要持續的密切關注相關的預警徵候這樣子好 OK 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"162451","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162451","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c95bf12b767eb573ef023e49d939498c5adea46edf933af680854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:55:35 - 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有兩個一個由被告主動來申請今天我聽到某些學者說這個可能會侵犯到被害沒有啊"},{"start":181.201,"end":201.337,"text":"就在保障他 所以他主動可以提什麼會不會傷害到被告呢另外呢由法院基於重大的公共利益還有社會上重大的矚目案件才開放 才一定去開放啊他一定是社會上很多的嘛所以不會出現民進黨講的什麼花六七百億直播沒有 第一個"},{"start":202.574,"end":223.174,"text":"一定是重大的這個案件而且對整個社會公共利益是有幫助的你才會這樣做嘛而且我那天也提了民進黨不要講說什麼花太多錢第一個 禮拜年每天大家都要看直播對不對我去問過啦 明年大概就是一億嘛所以不要弄一個什麼六七百億這個謊言出來是不好的第二個 現在那個 我是從媒體來"},{"start":224.502,"end":237.677,"text":"大家知道嗎 現在比較重要一些會議包括中東會開會有時候你協調協調有一個電視台進去嘛他不只轉播啊這個錢轉播費用人事費用都是可以省下來的所以錢也不是問題另外呢"},{"start":239.144,"end":254.933,"text":"我們要採取不是強制的具備有裁量而且是非常謹慎的這個原則我們明確排除喔案子裡面如果是未成年人性侵的案子家庭暴力或者是機密國安等案件是排除在外的"},{"start":256.287,"end":279.761,"text":"這個都是當時106年司法改革會議的這個結論啊所以啊 我們的態度說這個不是一個司法的秀場 它是一個制度的公開我今天啊 特別帶了兩段影音都很短 我給大家看一下好不好我們看一下 當初還是有改革色彩的蔡英文當初的民進黨怎麼來推動司法改革 讓我們對他一路來我們看一下當初蔡英文怎麼講司法院"},{"start":286.974,"end":304.66,"text":"將陸續開放法庭法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法庭直播法庭直播法庭直播讓必要的資訊更加透明"},{"start":307.3,"end":331.193,"text":"讓必要的資訊可以公開透明其實這幾天我有時候常去司法院旁聽司法院那個牆壁上面掛了一個要推動公開透明我們現在沒有辦法推動來另外剪了一段來我們看一下當初這個做結論的時候主持會議的來我們聽看看市市審在一定的條件下可以直播這樣的用語可以嗎對好 全面反對市市審直播"},{"start":333.752,"end":360.286,"text":"三票,好,那贊成直播的,十四省可以直播嘛,所以不是英語而是可以嘛的確是十票啊,那就是一定要主席表態啊,真實,現在是什麼意思那有十個人逼迫我投票,那我也只好投票啦,就是這樣,那就是十四票啦建議加,因為你們的提案,所以可能只有你們可以加,就是高度憲政爭議,及政治性安全沒問題,損害救濟,如果因為法庭直播產生出來的損害救濟,其實也應該一定考慮"},{"start":361.235,"end":377.005,"text":"我可不可以建議再加一個類型重大經濟還可以所以寫重大經濟案件就好了因為這是蓋瓜星的語言啦重大主謀案件各位提到很多現在的敏感性案件公開直播的效應是什麼大家稍微想像一下喔如果今天這個公開主謀案件它隨時受網民監督喔事後還會被肉搜正人講話會不會有心理壓力可能要顧慮了"},{"start":377.765,"end":401.835,"text":"其实公开透明要考虑的真的非常多但是呢如果我们认为公开透明是一条不归路剩下就真的是安全机制的问题那我们也对自己的能力要有一点信心我们是一个有能力的现代公民准备去面对所有的困难解决我们所面对的任何难题我们今天是其实有结论就很好然后大家的共识是很清楚的这点比什么都重要"},{"start":403.671,"end":426.331,"text":"這個主持會議的是前大法官 許一秀許一秀的話為什麼要特別要剪出來司法改革是一條不歸路我們本來就要往前走啊 現在又倒退路而且我們對我們自己也要有信心好不好謝謝給我一分鐘好不好 我做個剪大家都知道啊 我剛剛講不是全世界很多國家而已大家一定記得強尼代普大家想一想喔 強尼代普的老婆啊"},{"start":430.219,"end":456.752,"text":"安保賀德他那時候就是用媒體審判啊沒有法庭直播之前他老婆放了多少消息給媒體一面倒啊強尼戴普怎麼去救回來他的法庭直播救了強尼戴普也救了一個司法正義嘛一樣的我給大家看一個負面的例子我們國內有一個很有名的叫媽媽嘴命案大家有印象嗎那時候那個老闆叫李炳宏沒有法庭直播啊"},{"start":458.035,"end":476.505,"text":"多慘啊這咖啡店老闆因為被誣告被羈押的時候那時候已經有多少媒體知道消息一直在放消息他是不是已經被媒體公審了所以現在有沒有柯文哲也是啊你在媒體現在有沒有在公審柯文哲有沒有以前公審這個李炳宏這個問題要怎麼解決讓陽光射進法院"},{"start":481.328,"end":505.646,"text":"法庭直播可以解決這個問題對不對 法庭所有的審判過程都是經得起考驗的第一個 不會有願意民眾對司法的信任度才會提高我也做一個結論好 謝謝謝謝 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篩爆不然就是把他起底把證人起底這樣起來是很恐怖的那以後證人要去做交付結論的時候他有壓力"},{"start":114.79,"end":125.443,"text":"好那我們說法官呢法官大家說法官本來就要面對他要做審判他要面對他的一些社會責任那大家不要忘了我們現在又有國民法官"},{"start":127.233,"end":155.314,"text":"有一些案件是屬於國民法官的那國民法官他也必須要承載這樣的壓力嗎因為法庭直播所以我也覺得說大家要討論這個要持平而論為什麼今天不是像大家說的說這是黃國昌的法案大家就反對而是因為他的法案直接寫高等法院地方法院涉及到的涉及重大公共利益或社會矚目的案件社會矚目什麼是社會矚目啊"},{"start":156.581,"end":170.737,"text":"柯文哲這案的社會矚目所以這案的在法庭直播是這樣的嗎那這一案裡面也涉及到很多證人的結論真的在結論證人說要透過直播的方式來給證人不必要的壓力嗎"},{"start":172.481,"end":188.089,"text":"這個東西是要檢討的那再回到了整個國際法是在講的 去講中國 講中國的推法庭直播中國的法庭你們相信嗎中國的直播是要讓他的審理過程是要讓後面的人看的怎麼再講一個人質 充滿人質的中國然後說這是我們的榜樣我聽了這句話 我真的要佩服了真的要佩服 講中國"},{"start":201.725,"end":216.501,"text":"啊 你再說美國咧 美國他那部分州咧他是部分州他有做法庭直播 但是咧 他還是限縮比較可能是在民事 他在刑事上盡量去避免因為刑事涉及到的被害人"},{"start":217.284,"end":242.614,"text":"那在美國的憲法法庭他們是可以開放音訊事實上也不是直播就是說事後我把音訊再提供那如果適當的話這個音訊是可以提供給社會大眾的這是在美國的做法那在英國英國他們基本上也是禁止直播但是他們是允許法官在做一些重要宣示的時候"},{"start":243.194,"end":260.047,"text":"他可以把這個音訊檔案可以給外界就是法官在對這個案件做裁釋的時候那他們也是說但是呢我在播放法官的一些宣誓的時候你必須要避免去播放到當事人以及證人的畫面"},{"start":260.808,"end":285.178,"text":"尤其是他們的臉孔這在英國也是這個做法像德國日本這個基本上大家也很清楚韓國以前也有推動過直播後來韓國也因為這個在審理的過程變成鄉民化變成破碎化的一些在處理資訊的破碎化所以韓國後來也把這個東西都收起來了所以我想這不是說台灣輸人家輸其他國家"},{"start":286.238,"end":299.179,"text":"日韓這個普遍大家覺得民族性跟台灣是比較相仿的國家事實上日韓也是這樣做所以我還是一句話啦不要再說中國有直播 台灣就要在那邊直播"},{"start":300.41,"end":327.847,"text":"這句話真的是聽不下去那台灣要來推動法庭直播我也支持的一個層次就是說我們把它限縮在屬於高度法律性的它不涉及到了事實審不涉及到了證據調查的時候如果單純就法論法法律的攻防論戰的時候這個時候來做直播是有意義的尤其最近司法院事實上也做了一個很重要的過去一個很重要的一個"},{"start":329.068,"end":332.233,"text":"司法院大法庭的一個處理就是在講這個詐騙集團被害人的"},{"start":337.241,"end":362.386,"text":"這個車手的犯罪所得要怎麼認定的時候哇 有三派說法我覺得這一種討論事實上很適合直播因為社會也需要知道說這個被害人他如何對這個詐騙集團的一個犯罪所得來做他的追查這部分是有教育意義的我會覺得像這個財事直播這是好的啊 不得了如果以今天民眾黨黃國昌這樣的一個法案"},{"start":364.636,"end":382.472,"text":"到了地方法院 高等法院不管是民事 刑事只要說社會矚目 他就要直播這不可通啦用這樣的一個修法事實上也是害到柯文哲啦我們請民眾黨三思啦這樣對柯文哲更有好好 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歡迎個人資料保護委員會籌備處陳錦怡科長好"},{"start":1899.639,"end":1927.586,"text":"本次在交互之提案僅進行提案說明不另作詢答現在請新增提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘有號委員有號委員不在下一位范雲委員說明范雲委員不在OK"},{"start":1929.438,"end":1952.797,"text":"請李彥秀委員說明李彥秀委員不在請羅廷偉委員說明羅廷偉委員不在有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在進行討論事項請宣讀本次新增提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":1955.55,"end":1972.05,"text":"兒童托育服務法草案委員游浩等17人委員范雲等17人委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案條文對照表委員范雲等17人提案第47條直轄市縣市主管機關應將前條第二項調查結果以書面在明事實及理由"},{"start":1972.971,"end":1992.266,"text":"連同調查報告通知行為人及事件所涉兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人並因在名不符調查結果之救濟方法期間及其受理機關予以院版同委員尤浩等17人提案法案名稱兒童托育多元服務法第一章張明同院版"},{"start":1993.007,"end":2016.723,"text":"第一條第一項倒數第二句如下促進其身心健全發展第二項如下幼兒權益及教育依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法與幼兒教育及照顧法之規定辦理第二條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第三條本法用詞定義如下依托育服務以下列方式提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務"},{"start":2019.244,"end":2039.734,"text":"1.居家托育,指兒童尤其三親等內親屬外之人員,於居家環境提供收費之托育服務2.托育機構1.公共托育家園,直轄市縣市主管機關委託非營利性質法人、機構或團體辦理,提供12名以下未滿2歲兒童托育服務之機構"},{"start":2041.034,"end":2064.15,"text":"2.托嬰中心提供未滿2歲兒童托育服務之機構3.互助式托育因應離島偏遠地區、原住民族地區之特殊性或政府機關構、學校、公司及非政府組織為其員工子女及孫子女之托育需求提供未滿2歲兒童托育服務4.其他經主管機關許可設立之托育服務"},{"start":2064.91,"end":2084.119,"text":"二居家托育人員取得直轄市縣市主管機關核發居家托育服務登記證書之人員三居家托育服務中心直轄市縣市主管機關委託由非營利性質法人機構或團體協助辦理居家托育服務登記管理媒合輔導監督檢查及爭議調解事項者"},{"start":2087.04,"end":2107.372,"text":"四 負責人 托育機構或互助式托育依本法及其相關法規登記之名義人其為法人者 指其董事長或理事長五 托育人員 於托育機構及互助式托育提供教育及保育之人員六 主管人員 於托育機構及互助式托育縱理業務之人員"},{"start":2108.232,"end":2134.853,"text":"七 托育專業人員 第二款 第五款及前款人員八 其他工作人員 負責任托育專業人員外與托育機構服務之人員九 共同居住之人 與居家托育人員共同居住之配偶直系血親 旁系血親 同居人或其他同才共居之人第四條 第一項及第二項如下托育服務應以兒童最佳利益為優先考量"},{"start":2135.513,"end":2156.694,"text":"推动及促进儿童托育服务为政府社会家庭托育机构互助式托育及托育专业人员之责第三项与委员陈素月等16人提案同第五条第一项第12346款如下一全国性托育服务政策法规与方案规划订定宣导及研究"},{"start":2158.294,"end":2179.18,"text":"二、對直轄市縣市政府執行托育服務輔導、協調及監督三、中央托育服務經費分配及補助四、托育服務業務輔導、講註及評鑑之規劃六、全國性托育服務基本資料蒐集調查統計及公佈與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2180.16,"end":2194.396,"text":"第六條第一項第12467款如下一直轄市縣市托育服務政策與方案規劃訂定宣導研究及執行二中央托育服務政策法規及方案執行"},{"start":2195.097,"end":2222.057,"text":"四直轄市縣市居家托育服務登記管理輔導監督及檢查六直轄市縣市托育服務基本資料蒐集調查統計及公佈七其他直轄市縣市托育服務策劃及督導事項與委員陳素月等16人提案同第七條第一項及第三項與委員陳素月等16人提案第一項及第四項同第二項如下"},{"start":2223.098,"end":2239.87,"text":"前項相關學者專家民間相關機構團體代表不得少於二分之一任意性別不得少於百分之四十負責人不得以非托育團體代表之身份擔任第一項代表團體代表身份有異動者主管機關應重新聘任"},{"start":2240.67,"end":2265.529,"text":"第九條 序文默劇前為逗號第一 二五款如下一 提供清潔衛生安全及適宜兒童發展環境二 提供兒童充分營養衛生保健生活照顧與學習遊戲活動及社會發展相關服務五 其他利於兒童發展相關服務予以委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2267.059,"end":2291.67,"text":"第八條第一項後段文字為逗號其補助對象補助條件補助額度及其他相關事項辦法由中央主管機關定之第二項文字帳號及戶名後面為逗號莫具為供擔保或強制執行標的予與委員陳素月等16人提案同第十條與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2292.33,"end":2301.026,"text":"第二章居家托育服務第十一條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第十二條第二項倒數第二句如下"},{"start":2303.307,"end":2324.986,"text":"應將前項證書懸掛於服務登記處所之足資辨識明顯處予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第13條直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地家庭可支配所得依居家托育服務收托方式定期公告分區托育服務收退費項目及金額"},{"start":2326.027,"end":2350.868,"text":"第十四條居家托育人員不得巧立名目或任意收取前條公告項目金額範圍以外之費用第十五條居家托育人員受托提供托育服務應與送托兒童之父母或監護人訂定托育服務書面契約規定其權利義務關係第十六條至第十八條與委員陳素月等十六人提案同"},{"start":2352.352,"end":2378.47,"text":"第19條莫具為是需要修正或調整與委員陳素月等16人提案同第三章托育機構第21條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第39條第一項如下離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制及兒童生活與照顧服務需求得採社區互助式方式提供兒童托育服務"},{"start":2379.531,"end":2382.314,"text":"與委員陳素月等16人提案同第22條至第25條第28條至第29條第32條至37條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第42條"},{"start":2394.471,"end":2419.726,"text":"前段倒數第五句為與李導與委員陳素月等16人提案同第二十七條第一項首二句為直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地家庭可支配所得與委員陳素月等16人提案同第四章互助式托育第四十條第四十一條四十三條與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2420.526,"end":2445.886,"text":"第44條第二項如下互助式托育應將前項證書懸掛於服務處所許可處所之足資辨識明顯處予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第45條第一項第一句如下直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地家庭可支配所得予以委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2446.446,"end":2472.043,"text":"第48條第二項及第三項如下互助市托育發現疑似發展持款兒童應通報直轄市縣市主管機關直轄市縣市主管機關應將接獲之資料建立檔案管理並視兒童之需提供轉介適當之服務予與委員陳素月等16人提案同第49條第50條予與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2473.752,"end":2490.746,"text":"第51條末二據為並得經雙方協議是需要修正或調整與委員陳素月等16人提案同第52條互助式托育有損及兒童權益者其父母或監護人得向互助式托育提出異議"},{"start":2491.687,"end":2503.131,"text":"不服戶住室托育之處理時得於知悉處理結果日期三十日內向所在地之直轄市縣市主管機關提出申訴主管機關應進行必要調查並於三十日內將處理情形以書面通知申訴人直轄市縣市主管機關為處理前項申訴事件得組成專案小組進行調查必要時得通知父母或監護人"},{"start":2517.896,"end":2530.878,"text":"及互助式托育派員到場說明第三項與委員陳素月等16人提案同第五章人員資格管理第62條第一項第三及第12款如下"},{"start":2533.804,"end":2560.424,"text":"3.利用兒童從事有害健康等危害性活動或欺騙行為12.其他對兒童或利用兒童犯罪或不正當行為予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第55條予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第53條序文如下有下列各款情形之一者終身不得擔任托育機構或互助式托育負責人予以委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2561.184,"end":2575.689,"text":"第54條第1項第3款如下3 懲犯家庭暴力罪 經緩起訴處分或有罪判決確定日期5年內與委員陳素月等16人提案同第56條第58條與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2581.491,"end":2605.57,"text":"第57條倒數第三具為並強制轉介其收託兒童予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第61條第二項倒數第三具為並予以調職予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第59條倒數第5具為第56條或前條規定事實予以委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2606.21,"end":2615.714,"text":"第63條文字與執行業務時後面為逗號予與委員陳素月等16人提案同第60條第三項倒數第三句為"},{"start":2618.803,"end":2620.865,"text":"主管機關應主動查證並派員檢查第四項如下第53條第54條第一項第55條第一項第二項及第56條第一項規定不適任資格認定資訊蒐集處理利用查詢及其他相關事項之辦法"},{"start":2637.239,"end":2657.788,"text":"由中央主管機關定之於委員陳素月等16人提案同第64條第一項文字必要時及第三項文字其原因消滅後前面均為逗號於委員陳素月等16人提案同第65條於委員陳素月等16人提案同第66條第二項第二句後面為逗號於委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2665.071,"end":2680.263,"text":"第17條第18條第30條及31條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第20條第一項如下居家托育人員之托育服務有損及兒童權益者兒童之父母或監護人"},{"start":2681.164,"end":2705.159,"text":"得於之夕日起30日內向所在地之直轄市縣市主管機關提出申訴直轄市縣市主管機關應進行必要調查於30日內將處理情形以書面通知申訴人第二項第三據為得組成專案小組進行調查與委員陳素月等16人提案同第38條第一項第五據為"},{"start":2706.42,"end":2729.23,"text":"得予精細處理結果日期三十日內後段首句為主管機關應進行必要調查第二項第三句為得組成專案小組進行調查與委員陳素月等十六人提案同第八十六條第一項末句為受請求機關購英語配合第三項如下"},{"start":2733.001,"end":2751.378,"text":"主管機關一前二項規定所取得這資料應善盡應盡善良管理人注意義務確實辦理資訊安全及合作業其保有處理及利用應遵循個人資料保護法規定與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2752.739,"end":2770.625,"text":"第六章罰則第六十九條莫具為並公佈行為人姓名及機構名稱予以維園陳素月等十六人提案同第七十條第一項序文莫具為得案次處罰第二項及第三項如下"},{"start":2771.525,"end":2786.856,"text":"有前項各款情形之一者直轄市縣市主管機關並應公布場所地址及負責人或行為人姓名第一項負責人或行為人應即通知兒童父母或監護人並協助轉介轉介有困難者直轄市縣市主管機關應予協助與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2794.901,"end":2809.989,"text":"第七十一条与委员陈素月等十六人提案同第六十七条第二三四款如下二违反第二十二条规定有关收托儿童棉线三违反第二十五条第三项规定"},{"start":2810.929,"end":2828.78,"text":"規避、妨礙或拒絕主管機關檢查、評鑑或檢查時藏匿兒童4.違反依第25條第4項鎖定辦法有關評鑑結果列入因輔導負評、經輔導負評仍未改善於於委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":2829.66,"end":2844.859,"text":"第74條續文後段如下必要時令其停止收託或廢止其設立許可予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第68條第二及第4款如下二違反第43條第二項規定"},{"start":2846.881,"end":2868.215,"text":"規避妨礙或拒絕主管機關檢查或檢查時藏匿兒童4.違反依第50條第二項所定辦法無正當理由為提供涉入影音資料查閱或保存涉入影音資料予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第72條第二款如下"},{"start":2870.029,"end":2898.01,"text":"二違反第28條規定未與兒童父母或監護人訂定書面契約予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第73條第一款及第二款如下一違反一第39條第5項所定辦法有關使用樓層人員配置及資格收託方式二違反第46條規定未與兒童父母或監護人訂定書面契約予以委員"},{"start":2898.59,"end":2901.533,"text":"第七十六条第一项续文前段莫具为并公布姓名"},{"start":2917.31,"end":2945.971,"text":"第三项及第四项如下拒不配合第一项转介命令者处新台币二万元以上十万元以下罚还直辖市县市主管机关因强制转介其收托儿童第一项限期改善期间居家托育人员不得增加收托儿童违反者处新台币二万元以上十万元以下罚还得按次处罚直辖市县市主管机关因强制转介其收托儿童"},{"start":2946.851,"end":2968.037,"text":"與委員陳素月等十六人提案同第七十七條與委員陳素月等十六人提案同第八十一條第一項續文前段默劇之後文字如下得按次處罰其情節重大或經處罰三次後逗號人為改善者廢止其登記第二款默劇為"},{"start":2969.777,"end":2982.331,"text":"縣市主管機關公告範圍外資費用第二項第二句為自廢止日期與委員陳素月等16人提案同第79條續文前段末句為"},{"start":2984.076,"end":2999.554,"text":"得案次处罚于委员陈素月等16人提案同第80条续文前段末句为得案次处罚后段首句文字后面为逗号于委员陈素月等16人提案同"},{"start":3000.054,"end":3028.065,"text":"第七十八條第一項序文末句為得案次處罰第二項倒數第三句為經直轄市第三項前段末句為得案次處罰與委員陳素月等十六人提案通第八十二條與委員陳素月等十六人提案通第七章負責第八十三條本法實行前逗號已取得登記者逗號得繼續提供服務"},{"start":3029.085,"end":3045.139,"text":"第二項前三句為本法實行前逗號以休閉托育人員專業訓練課程領有結業證書者第三項首句為前項人員經費紙登記者逗號與委員陳素月等16人提案同第84條85條87條88條與委員陳素月等16人提案同"},{"start":3054.315,"end":3081.041,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案法案名稱第一章章明與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第一條為保障兒童接受安全優質的托育服務建構完善的托育服務體系與監督機制確保服務品質促進兒童身心健康發展特制定本法委員羅廷偉等17人提案"},{"start":3081.661,"end":3090.777,"text":"第二句首二字為提升與與願反同委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第二條與願反同"},{"start":3093.983,"end":3111.402,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下一托育服務指以下列方式提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務括弧一居家托育至未滿12歲兒童尤其三親等內親屬以外之人員"},{"start":3112.884,"end":3125.947,"text":"於居家環境中提供對價之在宅或到宅托育服務第二目及第三目同院版第四款及第五款第二至第十四款同院版第六款至第十八款"},{"start":3128.871,"end":3154.288,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第三條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第四條托育服務應以兒童最佳利益為優先政府托育機構相關人員及家庭應促進托育服務之健全發展對離島偏遠地區或因經濟身心文化族群因素需協助之兒童政府應優先提供托育服務機會"},{"start":3155.569,"end":3181.031,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第4條第一項如下托育服務應以兒童之最佳利益為優先考量並應提供兒童優質普及之托育服務第二項及第三項與院版同第4項如下中央主管機關應定期辦理托育資源需求及現況進行調查分析並公布結果具以訂定托育服務政策"},{"start":3181.992,"end":3197.738,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第5條第一項第一四五款如下一全國性托育服務政策法規與方案之規劃訂定執行宣導推動及研究四托育服務輔導獎勵補助及評鑑之規劃執行及公佈"},{"start":3201.159,"end":3225.471,"text":"五 托育服务相关专业人员培育资格训练检定及规划第二项如下前项第六款全国性托育服务基本资料至少应包括全国居家托育服务托育机构之设置许可立案情形收费项目与数额评鉴结果违规事项不利处分及其他相关事项予以院版同"},{"start":3226.671,"end":3249.802,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第6條第一項與院版同第二項如下前項第6款指向是縣市托育服務基本資料至少應包括主管之居家托育服務托育機構之設置許可立案情形收費項目與數額評鑑結果違規事項不利處分及其他相關事項"},{"start":3251.022,"end":3275.173,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第5條及第6條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第7條各級主管機關為整合規劃協調及諮詢托育服務應設置托育服務諮詢會前向諮詢會之成員應包括社政主管機關衛生主管機關勞動主管機關之代表相關學者專家及下列民間團體代表"},{"start":3276.554,"end":3301.582,"text":"居家托育服务团体托育机构团体儿童服务团体家长团体妇女团体与劳工团体前项学者专家及民间团体代表合计人数不得少于咨询会成员总数二分之一任意性别委员人数不得少于成员总数三分之一托育机构之负责人不得以非托育机构团体代表身份担任第二项之成员"},{"start":3302.182,"end":3310.435,"text":"第二項團體代表身份異動者主管機關應重新聘任之委員羅廷偉等17人提案第7條第1項文字協調後面為頓號審議予以願版同"},{"start":3316.604,"end":3334.286,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第8條托育服務應以尊重兒童發展為前提提供適齡適性的保育與照顧服務內容如下一提供安全衛生及適合兒童發展的環境二提供營養健康生活照顧學習及遊戲"},{"start":3335.607,"end":3363.08,"text":"等促进身心发展的服务三 记录儿童生活与成长并依需要转介专业服务四 提供育儿咨询与家庭支持资讯五 其他促进儿童发展的服务前项托育服务有关卫生安全营养生活照顾学习游戏转介及家庭支持之实施原则方式及其他相关事项之准则由中央主管机关定之"},{"start":3363.8,"end":3384.103,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第8條與願反同委員李彥秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第9條及第10條與願反同委員李彥秀等16人提案第2章居家托育服務委員羅廷偉等17人提案第2章居家托育"},{"start":3384.964,"end":3401.213,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案委員羅廷偉等17人提案第11條至第17條第三章張明與院板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第18條與院板同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第18條至第29條與院板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第19條"},{"start":3407.276,"end":3421.252,"text":"第四項倒數第三句如下托育人員收托兒童照顧比例與與願反同第20條至第25條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第26條"},{"start":3423.271,"end":3438.451,"text":"第二項第二句文字為修正為及予以願版同第二十七條第三項首句為托育機構不得收取中央主管機關一第一項規定之收費予以願版同"},{"start":3439.392,"end":3457.259,"text":"第28條與願板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第29條第三項莫具為由直轄市縣市主管機關定之與與願板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第30條第4項倒數第二具前面為逗號與與願板同"},{"start":3458.888,"end":3486.248,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第30條第一項倒數第二句為至少保存60日第二項及第三項與院版同第四項如下兒童執法定代理人與兒童於托育機構期間發現異常傷痕行為改變或其他具體可疑情形失得鑑據相關證明文件向直轄市縣市主管機關申請調閱特定期間之涉入影音記錄"},{"start":3487.529,"end":3505.985,"text":"第五項文字資訊安全管理後面為盾號前項調閱之條件隱私保護合理使用與救濟機制及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第六項與委員郭玉琴等21人提案同"},{"start":3508.223,"end":3525.92,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案委員羅廷偉等17人提案第31條語願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第32條第三項第一句及第二句後面均為逗號與語願版同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第32條語願版同"},{"start":3528.402,"end":3543.61,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第33條莫具前為句號與與願反同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第33條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第34條至第42條以及第4章張明與願反同"},{"start":3549.912,"end":3564.767,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第43條第一項及第三項與院版同第二項如下前項原因消滅後經中央主管機關認定仍得依本法規定擔任托育相關人員委員羅廷偉等17人提案第43條至第51條與院版同"},{"start":3570.908,"end":3599.085,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第44條及第45條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第46條第一項第二句後面及第三句如下頓號與居家托育人員共同居住之人疑涉有第36條第4項第二句以及第三句如下縣市主管機關之調查程序頓號前項審議小組組成及其他相關事項之辦法"},{"start":3600.366,"end":3620.419,"text":"與語願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第47條至第50條語願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第51條托育專業人員或工作人員不得提供其托育服務證書或資格證書與他人使用托育機構不得使用未在該機構服務之托育專業人員資格證書"},{"start":3623.3,"end":3646.685,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第52條與院版同委員羅欽偉等17人提案第52條第一項如下托育專業人員每年應完成18小時以上托育專業智能研習每二年所接受研習應包括3小時以上之性別平等課程與與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第53條第二項莫二據為"},{"start":3649.526,"end":3670.516,"text":"因其通知直轄市縣市主管機關予以願版同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第53條第54條予願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第54條第一項守據為托育相關人員對兒童其法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人資料予以願版同"},{"start":3672.645,"end":3692.403,"text":"委員 駱廷偉等17人提案第55條第一項守據為兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人對居家托育人員之托育服務方式第二項守據為兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人對托育機構之托育服務方式予以願版投"},{"start":3693.769,"end":3708.137,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第55條與願反同第56條第二項第三句為應善盡管理人注意義務與願反同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第56條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第5章罰則"},{"start":3717.847,"end":3745.444,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第57條序文莫具為並公布行為人之姓名及其所屬托育機構名稱予以願反同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第57條至第60條予以願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第58條予以願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第59條序文前段莫具為得案次處罰予以願反同"},{"start":3747.365,"end":3774.431,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第60條第一款如下1.違反第19條第4項或第20條第5項所定辦法中有關收託人數之規定第8款如下8.未依直轄市縣市主管機關依第45條第3項規定所為命令停止或調整托育相關人員之職務與與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第61條與願反同"},{"start":3776.531,"end":3780.237,"text":"委員羅廷偉等式七人提案第六十一條第三款如下"},{"start":3783.686,"end":3806.046,"text":"3.衛醫第30條第一項規定妥善處理攝錄影音資料至少保存60日或衛醫同條第5項所定辦法中有關查閱條件與方式規定提供攝錄影音資料予與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第62條第二項第二句後面為逗號予與願反同"},{"start":3806.847,"end":3826.802,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第62條至第68條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第63條第一項末二據為處新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還並令其停止收託及立即轉介其收託之兒童令得公佈姓名"},{"start":3827.563,"end":3855.473,"text":"第二项后段如下借其为办理登记者处薪台币二万元以上十万元以下罚还并得公布姓名及令其于一个月内转介其收托之儿童第三项如下有前二项情形之一者直辖市县市主管机关应及通知儿童之法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人并依其意愿协助转介且加强访视辅导第五项莫具为"},{"start":3856.234,"end":3860.946,"text":"縣市主管機關並因強制轉介其收託之兒童與與願板童"},{"start":3862.765,"end":3885.576,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第64條首據為托育相關人員對兒童有第36條鎖定之體罰與與願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第65條與願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第66條續文莫具如下得公佈姓名並廢止其登記與與願版同第67條自第69條與願版同"},{"start":3891.36,"end":3918.694,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第69條第三款手續如下違反第30條第5項所定辦法中有關監視錄影設備設置區域予以願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第70條第一項第二款如下二托育專業人員未依第52條第一項規定每年完成18小時以上托育專業智能研習予以願反同"},{"start":3919.714,"end":3945.404,"text":"委員羅廷偉等17人提案第70條至第72條與院版同第6章張明及第73條至第78條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第71條與院版同第72條本法所定令限期改善及處罰由直轄市縣市主管機關為之托育機構經直轄市縣市主管機關依本法處處以罰還"},{"start":3947.125,"end":3955.496,"text":"令其不得招收、停办或废止其设立许可者除本法令有规定外应并公布其名称及负责人姓名"},{"start":3956.536,"end":3978.752,"text":"本法规定应公布行为人姓名、托育机构之名称、该机构负责人姓名及场所地址者,其公布期间由中央主管机关定之。托育机构为法人,经直辖市县市主管机关费指其设立许可者,应并通知法院为解散之登记。第六章章名及第73条已愿满。"},{"start":3981.491,"end":3989.585,"text":"委員李燕秀等16人提案第74條手具後面逗號與語願版同第75條至第78條語願版同繼續宣讀修正動議第一案"},{"start":3996.394,"end":4020.323,"text":"第五條第一款及第二款如下一、全國性托育服務政策法規之研擬二、托育服務理念法規之宣導及推廣第三、四、六、七十款與院版第二、三、五、六、七款同第五款如下五、托育服務策劃研究輔導獎勵補助實驗及評鑑之規劃第二項手續如下"},{"start":4026.109,"end":4049.334,"text":"前项第七款全国性托育服务基本资料第三项如下前项第八款之评估标准照顾期间教育训练访试及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之予以愿版同第十一条第一项倒数第二句为于取得居家托育服务登记证书后"},{"start":4050.194,"end":4079.041,"text":"第三项如下居家托育人员对于前项之管理辅导应与配合第五项如下第一项居家托育人员之登记收托时间人数辅导管理托育服务环境废纸登记收退费规定及第二项之居家托育服务中心之执行业务管理监督检查辅导评鉴及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之于院办同"},{"start":4079.881,"end":4102.252,"text":"第十三條第二項首二具如下直轄市縣市主管機關應每二年審酌轄區內物價指數及當地區家庭可支配所得另於文字退費項目之後增列頓耗金額予與願版同第十五條第一項後段如下"},{"start":4104.378,"end":4130.784,"text":"送托儿童之法定代理人或实际照顾者应依契约规定缴费予以愿版同第26条直辖市县市主管机关应对托育机构进行管理监督检查直辖市县市主管机关得自行或委托专业机构团体办理托育机构之辅导及评鉴其评鉴报告及结果应公布于机关网站"},{"start":4131.624,"end":4137.25,"text":"托育機構對於直轄市縣市主管機關之管理監督檢查與前項受委託之專業機構團體之輔導及評鑑不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童第一項評鑑之類別項目指標對象評鑑人員資格"},{"start":4152.365,"end":4170.358,"text":"實施方式結果公佈申付申訴扶貧及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第45條第三項如下托育機構之負責人主管人員機構托育人員或工作人員設有第36條第38條至第40條第一項規定情形之一者"},{"start":4175.501,"end":4201.234,"text":"於第47條規定之調查期間有暫時停聘停職停止契約執行或停止運用關係之必要者審議小組應通知直轄市縣市主管機關令托育機構暫時停止或調整行為人之職務經調查認定為有第36條第38條至第40條第一項規定情形之一者停止職務期間之薪資應與補發與與願反同"},{"start":4206.277,"end":4225.68,"text":"第46条第二项至第4项如下直辖市县市主管机关受理前项疑似违法事件后应组成调查小组进行调查直辖市县市主管机关为审议前项违法事件之调查结果应设审议小组审议小组"},{"start":4226.721,"end":4246.592,"text":"至委员15人至21人任期2年期满的续聘委员均为无几职第二项直辖市县市主管机关之调查程序与前项审议小组织组成资格人数及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之予以愿版同"},{"start":4247.532,"end":4271.687,"text":"第47條首句為直轄市縣市主管機關應將前條第二項之調查結果於15日內已書面在明事實及理由予以願反同第48條第二項首句為直轄市縣市主管機關及托育機構對前項為通報之人員予以願反同第49條第4項末二句為"},{"start":4276.442,"end":4287.141,"text":"為心境托育相關人員因先進衛生醫療機構檢查合格後使得聘僱予以願版同第58條前段倒數第二句為"},{"start":4289.482,"end":4316.169,"text":"處負責人或行為人新台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還第二項如下有前項情形者直轄市縣市主管機關應公佈場所地址及負責人或行為人姓名並通知兒童支法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人予以願版同提案人委員林月琴連署人委員王振旭黃秀芳宣讀完畢"},{"start":4322.912,"end":4324.283,"text":"好那現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":5027.162,"end":5029.126,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會繼續宣讀新收修正的動議兩案請好 請宣讀"},{"start":5036.297,"end":5058.673,"text":"修正動議第十一條第二項修改為直轄市縣市主管機關的自行或居家托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記管理媒合輔導監督、盾號檢查及評鑒令新增第五項第二項評鑒報告之結果應公布於資訊網站其餘同行政院版第十一條"},{"start":5060.342,"end":5083.385,"text":"新增第18条居家托育人员应与法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人以书面约定儿童伤病之就医地点发生紧急伤病或事故时应依居家或托育服务紧急伤病救护原则为适当之处置前项居家式托育服务紧急伤病救护原则由直辖市县市主管机关定制"},{"start":5084.386,"end":5108.92,"text":"居家托育服务中心应辅导居家托育人员落实前项原则并定期实施演练新增第十九条中央主管机关应拟定居家托育服务品质提升及推动计划每二年内应通盘检讨修正至少一次并得适实际需要便更之中央主管机关应将前项居家托育服务品质提升及推动计划公开于网站"},{"start":5110.404,"end":5125.823,"text":"第36條托育機構應公開下列資訊針對第六款簡列行政院版第34條及金額三個字提案委員陳金輝委員陳昭志委員王育民委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":5132.823,"end":5157.782,"text":"現在進行兒童托育服務法草案第20案之主條審查以行政院提案條次為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見我們從法案名稱開始討論在討論之前請我們的衛福部提供之前先有做一些溝通的這些資料可以發給所有的委員"},{"start":5169.695,"end":5172.898,"text":"有時候又不一定代表有這種版本,這種版本發下來,所以是可以改,那幹嘛改那個紙張呢?"},{"start":5181.466,"end":5201.116,"text":"由於章次及條次款次將授權議事人員整理現在進行本案法案名稱章名條文審查現在進行行政院版的法案名稱第一章的章名法案名稱的審查請衛福部說明"},{"start":5211.448,"end":5226.956,"text":"那都沒有意見嗎好那我們就照行政院版本通過現在進行第一張張明的審查總則"},{"start":5241.206,"end":5249.893,"text":"有沒有意見 沒有 那就照行政院版本通過那現在進行第一條的條文總共20案請衛福部做說明"},{"start":5266.409,"end":5288.751,"text":"第一條的部分大概有幾個稍微跟行政院有幾位委員的版本跟行政院版本比較不一樣的地方有關有幾位委員像林玉清委員版本和核心主任委員邱若驊委員王美惠委員陳樹業油耗委員等等版本他有增加一個第二項也就是兒童的權利依兒童"},{"start":5289.432,"end":5314.022,"text":"及少年福利與權益保障法的規定辦理那這個其實我們在這個我們在原來最早研擬的時候確實有考慮過要增設這樣的文字在行政院審查的時候那行政院的法官會跟我們歷經說這個大概在法律適用上面應該是等於法律適用的當然可以不用寫所以最後送到院裡面送到立法院來的版本我們就沒有增加這一項這是第一個部分"},{"start":5314.522,"end":5334.117,"text":"那第二個是有關於陳培宇委員、林淑芬委員的提案的版本有增加一些文字主要是針對在需要提升公共托育服務能量和支持人民兼顧育兒女工作這邊大概在立法目的上面有增加一些文字那我們的建議是就是這個"},{"start":5337.099,"end":5363.4,"text":"這個托育服務法的立法目的比較偏向於針對各種的托育服務的型態大概我們總體做一個規範和支持那所以我們建議可以在第一條裡面針列支持人民兼顧育兒與工作這樣子的文字那其他大概各委員的大概頂多是有一兩個簡單的文字看行政院班門有些不同那以上建議謝謝"},{"start":5371.237,"end":5387.287,"text":"我想表達一個我們的版本的重點就是說全世界包括聯合國的人口政策其實兒童托育的政策他們都認為說應該要跟人口政策家庭政策性別平等的政策跟勞動政策其實都環環相扣"},{"start":5387.987,"end":5400.591,"text":"所以在這裡我們這一個兒童托育服務法其實正本清源我們希望能放進去一個就是開中民意它其實最核心是促進兒童身心健全發展但是還有一個就是要這個性別平等其實也是為了促進性別平等我們希望這個促進性別平等的這一個性別平等四個字可以在第一句裡面就加進去因為這是"},{"start":5413.635,"end":5429.584,"text":"綁在一起的本來就環環相扣的那另外一個就是大家一起來考慮我覺得大家每個人一起討論要不要再放進一個提升公共托育服務量能這樣的一個宗旨上去"},{"start":5431.065,"end":5447.305,"text":"大家期不期待這個政府或政策上或是法律上要提升公共托育服務量能然後支持人民兼顧育兒與工作然後才特地制定這個法律這樣子但是我覺得性別平等是不能少的"},{"start":5449.668,"end":5478.213,"text":"那其他委員有沒有意見沒有的話 這邊還是要反擊我的意見就是我認為兒童基全益兒童基上癮福利法跟權益保障法的規定辦理我覺得第二項還是要列入因為過去在幼兆法修正的時候因為也沒列入結果也沒有按照我們兒童全法來執行所以我覺得因為這部法呢基本上事實上是保障0到2歲那幼兆法是保障2到6歲我認為還是要列入以防"},{"start":5479.525,"end":5497.701,"text":"最後後來又發生跟幼照法同樣的問題所以我認為比較堅持是在第二項要去列入這個當然我們都知道應該要遵守可是如果沒有再看這法沒有再回去看兒少全法的時候很容易落掉所以這部分來"},{"start":5499.159,"end":5516.312,"text":"其他委員沒有意見的話請我們的衛福部說回覆這對於淑恆委員還有我這邊的意見針對兩位委員的的詢詢那我們大概做一個說明就是有關是不是要增列性別平等的部分那這個在"},{"start":5518.833,"end":5543.838,"text":"其實在托育的階段,針對要被托育的這些兒童來講其實在托育的時候,不管性別,大家都一樣的重要至於在托育的托育者,有關於在父母的角色的話其實在目前的兒少權法裡面父母要共同來承擔照顧子女的角色其實在兒少法裡面,確實是有相關的要求"},{"start":5544.498,"end":5571.646,"text":"那在托育人員的部分不管是居家托育或者是在做機構式的托育的部分其實在這邊我們並沒有針對性別有特別的不同的處遇所以在性別平等是不是一定要甄列這個部分我們比較我們尊重委員們大概最後討論的結果不是啊你沒有講錯重點我又不是因為你講的那些理由我們講的理由是因為你知道現在所有的這個"},{"start":5573.826,"end":5593.105,"text":"托育的工作或者是家庭照顧的責任都是由女性在承擔的所以我們如果把公共托育或者是居家托育或是把托育服務做得越好它本身就是在促進性別平等了是這樣子所以我沒有特別克責於你說你還要特別做什麼"},{"start":5594.102,"end":5611.715,"text":"所以這個宣示就是說其實這個法律幫婦女主要的家庭照顧責任分擔然後幫婦女解決育兒托兒的問題了促進性別平等了那這樣子女性自然會比較願意婚生嘛"},{"start":5612.575,"end":5640.421,"text":"是這樣子而已為什麼你們講到那麼複雜去呢你都想說要繼續做什麼事情所以你都不管他主席我基本上我非常贊成林淑芬委員的意見她所說的也有符合聯合國她現在所說的我們要推動少子女化政策這其實我覺得就是最重要的population study2000年設立來一篇文章還有一個因為裡面最重要四件事情最重要第一個性別平等"},{"start":5641.081,"end":5664.475,"text":"第二個 工作家庭均衡 第三個 Child Care 第四個就是津貼而且是要採取綜合性政策而且最重要這裡面事實上是一個整個總體性所以基本上我們表示支持還有月月親吻 我覺得這其實是很好開宗明義而且這也符合賴總統社會投資的一個策略還有我們要提供雙就業 雙照顧所以我想我們本部完全支持 謝謝"},{"start":5665.376,"end":5693.656,"text":"好請問那個政事委員請求發言謝謝主席針對性別平等這部分我看林委員他放的是在為了什麼什麼什麼及性別平等所以他的目標其實是為了透過這部法來促進這樣的一個目標他不是放在說最後要提升性別平等所以我想這個位置非常的重要那我很支持林委員把這個性別平等"},{"start":5694.476,"end":5711.333,"text":"放在为促进儿童身心健全发展及性别平等这样的一个位置会相对适合我们在透过这一部法案希望能够也真的让性别平等可以更有机会去促成以上好 其他委员有没有意见来 陈清晖委员"},{"start":5711.738,"end":5739.04,"text":"我也想在这边支持一下因为昨天才宣布五月份的出生人数已经又创历史新低本来以为之前是历史新低结果上个月五月也是历史新低是八千多位所以支持人民兼顾育儿女工作我觉得还有性别平等在这边这步伐是重要的尤其是在现在这个非常少子女化的关键时刻谢谢"},{"start":5743.31,"end":5771.162,"text":"衛福部這邊如果以淑芬委員講的加性別平等甚至應該講說是不是按照他的寫法這樣我也覺得公共托育服務量能非常的重要希望未來還是公共化所以還要支持人民局兼顧育兒跟工作還有加上我剛剛提的第二項是就按照對對是不是這樣有沒有問題沒有的話我們就照修正"},{"start":5771.766,"end":5772.389,"text":"請衛福部宣讀修正內容"},{"start":5780.948,"end":5807.24,"text":"第一項就是依零數分委員版本會促進兒童身心健全發展及性別平等保障兒童接受適齡適性之保育照顧確保兒童托育服務品質提升公共托育服務量能支持人民兼顧育兒與工作並建構完善托育服務體系特制定本法第二項兒童之權益依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法之規定辦理"},{"start":5811.979,"end":5820.524,"text":"抱歉保護可以建議一下剛剛那個我們衛福部的條文我稍微再做一點點確診會更完美就是第二項的部分他寫兒童是對不起來來來"},{"start":5826.397,"end":5846.414,"text":"有關第二項的部分因為我們這個法是兒少全法的特別法我建議說我們第二項寫兒童之權益本法為規定者 逗點一兒全法如果這樣子的話會比較堅固可以表明我們這個是特別法然後等於是本法有規定的要先用本法本法沒有規定的我們再去用兒少全法這樣會不會比較OK一點謝謝主席"},{"start":5867.777,"end":5884.715,"text":"今天法務部有到場嗎你就是法制的不好意思我就是法務部抱歉因為我們有很多的體力其實就像行政院法規會所說其實我們第二項都不用寫說本法未規定的適用其他法律因為那是想當然而然但是如果委員覺得這樣比較明確"},{"start":5886.036,"end":5897.489,"text":"我們也贊成說把第二項列入但是因為我們基於說特別法優先於普通法我們還是會建議說如果是本法未規定等於說本法有規定的我們就用我們的法才不會說到時候又有法規進口的問題對不曉得這樣委員不曉得可不可以接受謝謝"},{"start":5901.153,"end":5929.21,"text":"我來講一下啦就是說其實立法的體力上加上這個應該不是非常常見但也並不是不可以但是呢我覺得加上這一點有一個好處是說你提醒大家關於兒童的其他的權利是放在哪一部法律讓所以我一直在講法律的可敬性法律的可敬性就是一講啊你講托育服務的就看這裡那其實涉及托育服務的可能還有其他福利事項的規範"},{"start":5930.211,"end":5955.377,"text":"那你可以參考哪裡這算是一個提醒的作用我覺得也是蠻好的啦不過這樣子秀我有點擔心我先講就是上次狼屍案的狀況就是今天員工跟他的員長講說有孩子有遭受到這樣的狀況可是呢按照如果兒權法的話照理來講這員工事實上是要被"},{"start":5956.817,"end":5972.183,"text":"而選法53條事實上是會被所謂的裁罰的可是因為如果你這樣寫的話像幼照法因為沒有特別提然後幼照法是因照教師我只要通報我的園長就好了可是這個家駭人本身就是園長的小孩"},{"start":5972.943,"end":5997.792,"text":"那這個老師到底要不要處置可是按照兒少權法是要的喔53條所以如果你這樣子的競合關係會不會變成是說如果你這樣講說只要按照幼照法那可是我覺得兒少權法還是保護孩子也因為那樣子才會當時第一時間是沒有辦法保護孩子所以為什麼我特別強調這一塊有它背後的一個原因所在這個應該是這樣子本來就是要但是他們就"},{"start":5998.932,"end":6020.788,"text":"知道的人就睜眼說笑話嘛還有一種是普通人不知道不知道的話這是一種提醒的作用所以我才說他提醒大家還有另外一個法律在規範這個相關的權力的保障的地方但是這種提醒的作用是可以放進來我覺得沒關係的在立法體力上也並不是不允許也有其他法律這樣子寫過的"},{"start":6022.089,"end":6036.67,"text":"那就代表說我們重視這個兒童權利的保障所以這個托育服務以外的涉及其他的兒童權利的還有這個法在保障這是一個宣示性提醒大家這個也是提高法律的可敬性因為對我們來講我們都很清楚"},{"start":6038.512,"end":6055.124,"text":"哪一種行為哪一種違法其實是首腦部法律規範的可是很多人的確不知道我們不要用我們的角度應該從人民的角度來思考很多人真的不知道還有哪些法律是相關規定類在保護兒童兒少權利因為你跟兒少可是有時候他沒有想到兒少他想到是兒童所以告訴他們還有這部法律也是很重要的我認為放上去"},{"start":6064.451,"end":6073.287,"text":"應該各位應該從立法體力上沒有關係因為其他法律也有人這樣寫過不過我還是期待按照我的版本"},{"start":6086.889,"end":6110.803,"text":"抱歉委員抱歉可能委員誤會了我是贊成第二項增列只是加一個文字說本法未規定者我們特別標明本法先施用對對我剛沒有反對委員可能誤會我是說如果委員要提示是可以我們會讓大家更清楚說本法有規定的先用本法不足因為我們本法本來就是兒少全法的特別法所以我們就說加一句特別啦因為講的"},{"start":6111.764,"end":6112.987,"text":"對對對 就是兒童之權益 本法未規定者 逗點我剛剛的意思是這樣 抱歉可能我剛剛講的不是很清楚謝謝委員 不好意思"},{"start":6127.771,"end":6155.985,"text":"我們先照行政院提案跟委員林岳勤等16人跟委員林淑芬等25人提案修正通過沒有啦 行政院提案版本跟我們就不一樣你也照林淑芬委員的提案再加上林岳勤委員的第二項修正通過行政院提案不行喔林岳勤等16人的第二項跟林淑芬"},{"start":6156.98,"end":6165.381,"text":"委員的25人第一項提案修正通過現在進行第二條總共一樣同樣20個版本"},{"start":6185.663,"end":6206.522,"text":"那請我們的衛福部說說明第二條的部分各委員的版本除了王育民委員的版本那他有在於對於各主管相關目的事業主管機關應辦理的事項有列在條文內之外那其他各委員的版本文字基本上都相同"},{"start":6207.122,"end":6231.176,"text":"那針對王偉仁的版本的部分我們說明因為他本法主要是規範就是托育一個比較明確的事項所以當時我們是在條文的說明欄已經把這個各目的事業主管機關要去做的事項我們已經在說明欄裡面已經有在去把它列出來所以第二條我們建議是不是可以依照行政院版本的提案通過謝謝"},{"start":6234.682,"end":6258.588,"text":"來 陳靜薇委員好 在這邊報告一下因為我的版本下次審查的時候也會進來我是跟王明委員一樣的那同時他現在出席一個活動所以我也跟他表達一致的意見因為兒校權法的第七條也是如此把它列入職責會比較清楚那我看不出有什麼道理為什麼托育是不行把它列入的"},{"start":6273.34,"end":6293.011,"text":"各位報告我們當初在研擬的過程中的時候確實有參考過立法架構把相關目的事業主管機關的全責也寫在條文裡面在行政院審查的過程裡面在討論的過程中"},{"start":6296.093,"end":6319.253,"text":"那主要的考量就是兒童托育服務法它是一個針對托育事項的一個專法那相關目的事業主管機關的事項它沒有像兒童沒有像兒少法這樣它是一個採綜合式的立法涉及到各部會各種階段的事項都這麼的龐雜所以當時為了考主要是其實是立法技術的簡潔的考量"},{"start":6319.793,"end":6338.509,"text":"所以在行政院審查的時候建議是不是能夠就把這個相關目的是主管機關的一些事項的部分是把它放到說明欄裡面去那其實大家各部會要負責的事項其實都還是會一致也都會來依照未來通過的法律來操作做以上的說明 謝謝還是這條我可以先保留嗎 王一鳴委員還保留"},{"start":6346.586,"end":6366.286,"text":"其他委員 先針對第二條還有沒有其他委員的意見抱歉我是想到說第一條的立法說明欄可不可以想就是說我們明確地把它文字化就是說我們補充說明說這個兒童托育服務法是"},{"start":6368.675,"end":6380.44,"text":"此法為特別法 為兒少全法的特別法這樣子大家才會比較清楚 會不會在托育事項上依本法 其他事項依兒少全法這樣子需不需要這樣寫上去 這樣會更明確其實都說明剛才你的第二項而已"},{"start":6390.563,"end":6413.201,"text":"在行政院版的那個說明欄裡面其實大概有關在特別法的部分在立法說明欄這個意思是已經有先列進來了所以也是因為在說明欄當初有列的時候所以才會在行政院版條文裡面就第二項部分原則上當時會考慮就法治技術來講就先不把它放進來我們在講立法說明立法說明"},{"start":6420.219,"end":6446.049,"text":"放進來立法說說一下啦因為我們就是要標標示它是兒少全法的特別法這個法律的的特殊性啊就是跟我們報告就是行政院版在送進來的時候在那個我們的條文說明欄那對於有關跟托育服務法和兒少全法中間的適用關係是屬於一個特別法的關係在說明欄裡面原來就已經有先續名了第二條"},{"start":6447.89,"end":6465.66,"text":"第二條裡面有 已經有續名了所以也因為有這樣的考量所以在法治技術上面做一個剪輯所以原先要把第二還建議把第二項就可以不增列那當然委員這邊大概討論的結論是我們第二項還是維持這樣一個文字這個部分我們都沒有問題我沒有看到你寫特別法"},{"start":6479.742,"end":6480.463,"text":"我不是講適用的問題我是講說你們一直講大家都在講因為法務單位也是講說你們都講說這個法是兒童權法的特別法"},{"start":6498.982,"end":6513.76,"text":"持法為特別法依己在托育的事項上那依本法其他事項依而授權法其實也是類似這樣子當然意思已經很相像了但是我是說他的特別法的法律的屬性要不要放進來說明欄裡面讓他法律的屬性"},{"start":6518.632,"end":6541.397,"text":"特別法優先嘛 因為它有優先性嘛所以要不要把這個優先性給它在立法說明欄講清楚看要怎麼講都可以但是要把它的優先性標示出來我的意思是這樣子你雖然有想出說這托育的依這個法你的說明欄講起來它像一個普通的托育服務法像一個普通法可是我們要強調的是它是這個特別法"},{"start":6544.838,"end":6552.704,"text":"所以它有優先上的適用如果托育相關的法律這一個法是優先的那這個法沒有規範的才兒少權法這樣子特別法優先於普通法是這樣子要把它特別屬性標示出來"},{"start":6563.649,"end":6565.331,"text":"法務部你怎麼改拿出來給我們看啦"},{"start":6582.117,"end":6597.344,"text":"那我們是回到第二條嘛第二條剛剛有運營委員還有經貿委員他們有針對第二條希望能夠再擴充把各個事業機關都納進來不過的確他這樣列是非常詳細"},{"start":6598.864,"end":6614.129,"text":"我們剛開始在第一條說事實上也有提到說依照這個月刑委員你所提到這個兒童權益等等是有已經有兒童及少年福利權益保障法等等的部分所以似乎這個法案"},{"start":6615.53,"end":6629.043,"text":"這個條例本身比較沒有辦法去把這個他們這次所提供的這個相關的內容含括進來所以我是如果可以的話就先暫時保留"},{"start":6630.698,"end":6645.41,"text":"那第二條大家有沒有什麼意見 因為我也跟證據委員同樣的想法 就是說兒少全法已經有名列各個配合單位了 如果又要在這邊 那以後如果相關配合都要列到這麼多那本來這一條法本來就是"},{"start":6646.496,"end":6664.977,"text":"本來兒童托育服務法就是從兒少權法拉出來針對托育比較關聯性的獨立一個法來做專法來做來做規範所以如果那樣的話那因為今天剛剛陳經理委員現在不在那我們就是先行保留好那我們就接"},{"start":6677.608,"end":6677.93,"text":"那是不是請"},{"start":6723.854,"end":6724.715,"text":"那請衛福部做說明"},{"start":6742.336,"end":6770.392,"text":"第三條部分主要是針對用詞定義這個部分的話大多數委員的文字大概都和行政院版相近除了有少數的一些文字稍微著作整理其中主要有比較有不同的部分是在吳佩奕委員的版本裡面有特別提到替代性照顧這樣的一個定義在吳委員版本裡面相關條文也有增訂"},{"start":6771.713,"end":6794.495,"text":"這個相關的替代性照顧的部分的條文那因為考慮到替代性照顧主要是針對兒童在沒有辦法比較沒有辦法在家內生活需要安置到機構裡面去那在安置程序裡面主要的現在現行相關規定都規定在兒少法裡面所以行政院版的角度比較傾向於說"},{"start":6795.476,"end":6808.812,"text":"而在這邊如果有涉及到有替代性照顧要加外安置的部分就統一規範在兒少法裡面在這邊就我們不建議特別甄列所以我們會建議是不是能夠照行政院版的條文來做處理以上建議 謝謝好 守分委員"},{"start":6813.564,"end":6828.174,"text":"抱歉因為我們的版本的第九款跟行政院版也一樣但是有原住民地區還有偏鄉的人還有少數的一些團體來反映"},{"start":6830.188,"end":6859.668,"text":"就是說互助式托育機構就是為他們的啦離島的偏遠的或是少數非營利的這種屬性的需求但是他們部落之間或是偏鄉的會有人口少子女的話少非常的少然後你其實考慮到說兒童要怎麼照顧可是你要想沒有人願意去那種地區服務真的是師資還有托育人員非常非常的少都不願意去服務了"},{"start":6860.348,"end":6885.853,"text":"在那種情境啊 狀況裡面 他們可能有一個需求這個需求是必須要混零 混零混在一起那除了人力需求不足以外 師資需求不足以外還有一個就是空間 空間的需求不足那他們要托育服務在偏鄉 在原住民地區 在離島甚至連合法的建築物都不可得"},{"start":6886.633,"end":6893.878,"text":"那你知道過去的公共空間很多都是蓋一蓋連執照都沒有那你要成為合法的這個托育的場所或是幼教的場所其實都要修繕都要花大筆錢事實上也沒有人要給他們錢他們也無能去修繕在這種狀況裡面找不到合格的場地找不到"},{"start":6908.969,"end":6934.897,"text":"有合資格的願意到他們那種偏鄉到那種離島到原住民部落非常山上的地區找不到人願意去的他包括人員資格都受限了所以合格的就這麼少的狀況裡面那他們可能有那種混零的需求混零照顧那事實上混零照顧也不是很不行其實很多實驗教育還有過去我們帶孩子的經驗你從經驗法則來看其實的確是"},{"start":6939.259,"end":6953.874,"text":"也並不是不可以在這種狀況裡面我為什麼要講就是第九款的最後一句話提供未滿兩歲的兒童托育服務的機構那這樣子的話會限縮它不能混零"},{"start":6955.215,"end":6969.671,"text":"這一句話會獻說他不能混零所以他們的問題就會變得很嚴重那都可能會變成說那他沒有辦法辦那他沒有辦法辦的話家長也沒有辦法顧那大家大概只能"},{"start":6971.072,"end":6993.959,"text":"搬離那個地區或是不生那你趕年輕人離開因為沒有人可以照顧趕年輕人離開有時候甚至在偏鄉有時候甚至在原住民部落失去了年輕人那個部落就要倒了結果就垮了那個村落也要亡了所以在這種狀況裡面要不要考慮刪除未滿兩歲"},{"start":6997.262,"end":7010.05,"text":"還有第17款工作人員我們有加一個機構的托育人員以外負責人主管人員機構托育服務人員以外因為你們行政院版第15款也是寫機構托育人員所以你們從第17款第15款其實要統整在一起"},{"start":7026.983,"end":7038.932,"text":"是這樣子行政院版的第15跟17要給他統整在一起也是需要機構兩個字因為在這裡講的也是因為有主管人員的然後我覺得比較重要就是說未滿2歲這個事情是不是能夠因為我們這個款式就是為他們的然後讓他們有彈性這個可能看盧委員可能"},{"start":7057.322,"end":7068.104,"text":"喔 你是正天才喔我以為他是盧憲一欸喔喔 這樣子喔 從後面看又是看到頭了抱歉抱歉 好好來等一下所以"},{"start":7081.932,"end":7109.441,"text":"我先請那個主管請回答所以所謂委員的是15跟17要合併嗎因為一個是專業人員一個是非專業人員因為專業人員他還是要受過專業的一些訓練那如果要開放的話可能要到前面去不是 你在講什麼我是在講是機構多餘人員機構多餘人員不是工作人員嗎不是 工作人員很多種"},{"start":7111.158,"end":7122.908,"text":"有這個負責任主管人員機構托育人員以外的啊我是只把名詞統一在一起啦17款裡面托育人員以外指的是機構托育人員以外啦他跟他們第15款"},{"start":7130.009,"end":7145.38,"text":"文字統一才不會產生這是什麼東西的意思啦他這裡講的是托育托育人員講的是機構托育人員要更明確化而且名詞要統整在一起啦是這樣子我們先請衛福部這邊"},{"start":7146.241,"end":7150.005,"text":"那到時候來請陳委員首先非常感謝林淑芬委員的這個指導我想我完全支持尤其是在你剛才所說的在這個離島還有這個原住民地區有的因為這個因為有那個設施設備"},{"start":7162.478,"end":7166.003,"text":"你不可以用我們平地的方式這第一點第二就是這個你也沒辦法說所以可以採取彈性的那個你剛才說有分離的方式這個方式我覺得應該要支持這樣才有辦法來因地制宜嘛"},{"start":7178.299,"end":7199.532,"text":"另外一個部分就是剛才說的第15和第17那個裡面應該有一些分離的部分但是我現在想要委員清晰一下說香港委員清晰一下說第5條的部分因為你如果完全去刪除那個美滿兩會立法會的這個合約可能我們的一個法條上可能有一些可能會有一些問題啦所以能不能授權執法好不好"},{"start":7207.306,"end":7210.318,"text":"不是就是說你這裡法條寫死了你怎麼去授權執法"},{"start":7213.252,"end":7239.83,"text":"應該是把你們去調整就大家現在可能沒有辦法立即想到怎麼寫出來也沒關係因為我們還有下一次的討論嘛第二輪討論那能不能就提供未滿兩歲的兒童的托育服務的機構你怎麼樣把它變得有彈性可以有混零的空間才能夠授權你們如果你母法寫死了你怎麼可以執法還可以逾越母法的規範呢所以不是授權執法是母法不能頂死的啊"},{"start":7240.931,"end":7253.382,"text":"你不刪除的話那要怎麼樣寫才是有談刑的你們回家去想啦好 OK 但是正心就是按照那個委員的意見說我們的因地制宜啦這樣啦這個我覺得拜託衛福部去討論因為0到2跟2到6的需求非常的不同"},{"start":7259.348,"end":7279.063,"text":"按照學理上本來我們講說嬰幼兒幼兒跟兒童本來的需求不同如果署分委員考慮到那個偏鄉的話這邊互助是不是只有偏鄉還有所謂政府機關公營事業如果混雜在一起的話孩子混雜在一起你的設施設備不同如果"},{"start":7280.164,"end":7290.312,"text":"這樣子合在一起還有人數比也不同的話我覺得我有擔心會妨礙到兒童的權益為什麼因為除非你講得非常清楚"},{"start":7291.755,"end":7318.157,"text":"要合在一起可是0到2歲的配比是什麼如果2到6歲的配比是什麼那個考慮到偏鄉我覺得當然可以去做一個比較完整的規定因為要因應偏鄉的可是不要忘記這邊還有一些政府機關跟公營事業如果一旦政府機關我們同意他這樣出了事情的話我非常擔心如果連政府機關辦的這個都沒有辦法去維護兒童權益的話我有點擔心所以我覺得"},{"start":7318.803,"end":7327.976,"text":"如果這樣的話等我們政經財委員講完然後養藥委員講完之後看是不是要沒辦法達公司要先先行保留要要想清楚來好謝謝可是剛剛這"},{"start":7336.582,"end":7362.819,"text":"那我先講一下就是第三條的部分那個托育機構這邊是只提供未滿兩歲那我們看到現在的托嬰中心有兩歲以上未滿三歲的兒童那像這樣子的話到底他是要依照兒童托育服務法兒少法或者是這個幼少法的規定來辦理"},{"start":7364.541,"end":7392.843,"text":"這個目前就是有這樣的一個狀況後邊有一個但書是因為我們一直沒有幼兒園沒有專班出來很少私立也沒有提供二到三歲所以這邊後邊法條有個彈性是可以讓他們待到三歲才不會讓孩子一直轉換空間可是在這邊的確會跟後邊有一點點有一些問題這邊直接寫未滿兩歲可是後邊會有一些調子是讓他因為教育部的體制上是要到九月開學才可以收那個"},{"start":7394.745,"end":7405.367,"text":"兩歲以上的那如果他還沒有的時候他隔年可能就已經到三歲了所以的確後面有些彈性的處理那就看大家要在這邊直接寫死未滿還是說因為後面有些彈性的處理這個我覺得這個也很混亂耶要不要請衛福部先做說明我知道後面有些條次是有彈性空間"},{"start":7420.613,"end":7437.491,"text":"有關黃委員所提到這個年齡的部分目前其實在原始當年在做幼托分離的時候大概一個基本的立法的政策方向就是0到2用托育的方式來處理"},{"start":7439.652,"end":7457.619,"text":"滿兩歲三到六那原則上是進入托育體系那這個大概是當時的一個立法分工架構但是為了要處理銜接的問題目前在不管是兒少法或者是我們現在的托育服務法裡面大概為了去處理銜接的部分我們大概都允許托育機構"},{"start":7458.719,"end":7482.588,"text":"可以去設立就是他的如果滿兩歲他可以延拖到未滿三歲就是讓他就用一個例外的方式去處理到可以去能夠跟幼教體系去做銜接這個部分有做那同時教育部的系統這邊也同時最近這幾年一直在擴增有關就是二到三歲的這個叫做這個三歲兩歲專班嘛"},{"start":7484.188,"end":7510.095,"text":"这个部分也一直都在扩充相关量所以我们是两个部会协力一起再把二到三的这一段去把它衔接起来原则上我们是说在托育扶法这一段我们政策方向还是设定在零到二满两岁之后用一个例外的方式可以延拖到三目前这个零二以上的部分在我们后面的条文里面也都已经先有相关的规定以上说明"},{"start":7510.839,"end":7523.023,"text":"所以看委員針對於第三條因為後邊21條有特別去做調查而且21條也有各種不同的版本等一夜也可以從21條的時候我們再回來看第三條因為看起來第三條可能有要保留"},{"start":7523.427,"end":7549.177,"text":"那或者是說等下中場休息的時候要不要再做一些兩邊再做討論來我們請陳昭智委員主席因為那個經貿委員跟這個運民委員他們現在參加一個記者會馬上回來但是他們希望能夠第三條保留那剛剛主席剛好因為意見大家也比較多一點我替他們就是就請求主席才是就是說可以先於保留讓他們有機會發表他們的意見好來鄭天才委員"},{"start":7552.462,"end":7574.765,"text":"非常謝謝這個林淑芬委員這個對於我們沿江的部分的一個非常詳細的說明當然我這個條文也有特別針對這個互助式同一機構原住民族地區的那個部分所以為了因應現在這個少子女化"},{"start":7575.586,"end":7602.665,"text":"的一個情況所以這個混零這個部分然後跨越這個教育部的幼兒幼兒級教育照顧法跟這個今天我們要立的新法怎麼樣在這個少子女化然後尤其是在偏鄉原住民族第七部落這樣的一個因應所以剛才林書文"},{"start":7603.766,"end":7631.57,"text":"委員特別提到的那個部分如果我們在這個第三條明定寫的很死那你們有沒有可能再增加第二項這個名詞定義增加第二項但書加一個但書但怎麼樣的時候這個給教育部衛福部衛福部這邊再再因應看怎麼文字會做的會寫的更好以上來那個楊耀文"},{"start":7634.083,"end":7661.359,"text":"我當然也是要感謝一下林淑芬委員對離島地區脫離機構的困境所提出的問題我還是要講說法律定了呢就是我看樣子這一條是會保留不過我希望衛福部這邊可以先因為離島就是現在居住的人越來越少"},{"start":7662.318,"end":7686.953,"text":"那我們假如說各項政府的支持不夠完善恐怕就會越來越多的無人黨剛剛林淑芳委員有講到一個她可能連建物的合法性都很難找到然後要修繕或者要整建"},{"start":7688.293,"end":7709.739,"text":"經費上也有困難那我是不是利用修法的時候請衛福部這邊盤點一下離島原鄉到底有多少地區是地方政府也想做那我們一起來做先把可以可以托嬰托育的"},{"start":7713.22,"end":7737.63,"text":"的地方先建置起來這個很重要因為如果再講一下就是政府的支持不夠無人島就會越來越多那其他的大概其他剛剛我原本也要來講一下就是兩歲到三歲的問題那現在21條已經有明訂了所以我們就這樣子好 謝謝主席"},{"start":7739.476,"end":7740.136,"text":"王振旭委"},{"start":7768.935,"end":7795.977,"text":"就是光第九條就應該把這個前面這部分呢是用提供兒童托育服務的機構那我們已經在前面有訂立什麼是兒童嗎就12歲以下那如果剛剛我們葉行為所提到的那後面的這些公營事業機關公司等等我們就不宜把這個未滿兩歲要剔除所以我們如果把這個第九款"},{"start":7796.75,"end":7813.779,"text":"做相對的去把重點式的做一些處理的話相信會更符合各位委員還有未來在照顧上的期待那這部分也是就麻煩主管機關這邊如果能夠先這樣調理的話那當然我們會先做保養以後還要再來做確認這樣"},{"start":7821.055,"end":7837.072,"text":"這邊再也來釐清一下你的主管人員因為以前托嬰中心稱的是主任那你現在主管人員到底是什麼因為主長主任和一個因為甚至這個人呢中管業務"},{"start":7838.613,"end":7863.422,"text":"可是他到底要不要有專業 以前是有要求喔拖延中心是有要求要有專業 他要擁有主任資格的 其實可能現在用主管人員這是第一個 另外一個事實上這個負責人也要考慮的是到底是實際負責人還是事實上刑事負責人 以前我們在評鑑或者是在查核拖延中心的時候很常碰到 他基本上不是 不是"},{"start":7865.113,"end":7884.603,"text":"結果他是實際的執行的負責人可是他不是在掛在牌上的那樣的負責人這也要不要去釐清否則的話多以事實都不太符合所以也請你們做說明還有一個如果剛才以淑芬委員提的那樣和秀芳委員提的甚至剛剛鄭天安養藥委員提的"},{"start":7886.926,"end":7909.657,"text":"有一幾個在互助式要不要去跟因為畢竟今天事實上原來母法就是0到2歲那如果要在某一個條件上開放的時候那事實上會不會跟幼照法有競合關係那這個就是變成說這一條可能真的要去保留而且這邊要去處理的是如果一旦公司他做這件事情"},{"start":7910.217,"end":7926.652,"text":"他收0到6歲那出了問題到底這法要去處理還是幼照法處理這就會有我覺得偏鄉有偏鄉他要去處理的那要獨立嗎還是你要放在這邊因為你這邊事實上還有一般私營的公司行號也可以去設的時候這混雜在一起"},{"start":7927.072,"end":7951.105,"text":"我還是擔心會影響到兒童權益如果一旦有問題的話如果有特別因應偏鄉的話那也要有些特別的處理否則就是你們要跟教育部去做一些溝通討論還有剛剛秀芳委員提的那如果說你們今天假設後邊又要去有這樣子21條有這樣那要前面要不要開放到某種程度是說要未滿三歲還是因為跟幼照法競合關係你們這邊只能未滿兩歲後邊21條又來講開放一些"},{"start":7955.507,"end":7978.426,"text":"空間是因為我目前少人去設2到3歲所以就只能這樣因應為了孩子的權益說不要他一直在換地方說0到2歲換一個地方2到3歲沒地方又換一個地方然後3到6歲又到一般有收所以他就變成換三個地方0到2歲在童年中心2到3歲到保母家然後3到6歲又到幼兒園因為幼兒園幾乎不做2到3歲的專班"},{"start":7979.787,"end":7979.987,"text":"好像那個"},{"start":8008.615,"end":8022.452,"text":"我可以說明嗎還是說明等一下我們再請那個我先簡單說明一下我想那個基本原則在零到二我們是處理零到二嘛二到六那邊就是那個幼教法那邊這是第一個這是基本原則可是現在目前就是說委員對於現在目前這個第九款這邊"},{"start":8024.894,"end":8043.882,"text":"這裡面有互助式托育機構裡面 現在有兩個部分一個是偏鄉 偏鄉大家有因地制宜 我們是不是這個部分廉額出力嘛但是你其他 其他公營事業等於這些可能像王志旭委員所說的 我們就廉額廉額 廉額出力啦好不好 原則上是不是就是用這種的這個縮刻 好不好"},{"start":8047.913,"end":8072.641,"text":"我現在意思就是說托育是因為互助式托育機構我們現在最重要的是要針對這個偏鄉還有我們住民的地區還有楊耀文也有說有一些設施設備我們現在要因地制宜嘛所以我們這個部分我們就要強調它的特殊性但是月勤委員這邊也有談到一個就是說有針對公營事業啦學校等等這些這個部分的話這可能"},{"start":8076.003,"end":8087.136,"text":"這是另外一個category這樣啦所以我意思是說是不是就這邊分成兩堆這樣我就可以有一個解到這個黃正希委員剛剛所說的嘛至於具體看要怎麼處理來我們現在請代理署長這邊"},{"start":8091.78,"end":8106.017,"text":"我再舉一個例子就說幼照法的執法有一個叫做職場互助這個教保服務實施辦法職場教保服務中心應該要配置什麼樣的人其實他們其實有混零"},{"start":8107.198,"end":8130.459,"text":"那職場互助教保中心的人力比現在是用大混零所以他們沒有分班那他們人力比是1比10我覺得月景提出了一個就是說有兩個重點第一個就是說年齡上因為混零會涉及到兒童托育服務法那也可能會涉及到這個幼照法兩邊兩部法律到底是要適用哪一個規範的問題月景剛剛講第一個"},{"start":8132.921,"end":8149.399,"text":"第二個在兩部法律裡面那如果另外一部法律有規範到這個人力比照顧的人力比那要怎麼解決的問題那所以顯然的如果這兩個問題都要思考的話那我們事實上在這個地方這個互助式機構"},{"start":8150.66,"end":8165.438,"text":"因為保姆照顧沒有問題保姆可以直接照顧到12歲可是我們這裡講的是互助式機構請大家要記得真的是因為原鄉超級偏僻的還有離島超級人少都沒有人要去的狀況他就是有這個需求他不是我們一般人的狀況那在這種狀況裡面我們需不需要服務他們要設計一個"},{"start":8170.443,"end":8196.1,"text":"可以是用混凝的但是這個地方人力照顧比也要放進去可能連人力照護比都要入法了這個是我們目前為止整部法都沒有思考到的人力照顧的比例可能就要為他們這種如果要開放了彈性了混凝了那照顧比這個東西或是整個混凝裡面細部再分班"},{"start":8196.88,"end":8219.568,"text":"同一個空間混零但是細部再分班細部分班的時候人力照顧比看能不能就有特殊需求比較小的要多一點同一個空間裡面啊共用人力對對就是可能還在更細緻可能目前我們沒辦法在這裡馬上就有一個答案但是可能要請你們回去思考好"},{"start":8222.092,"end":8242.735,"text":"那就麻煩衛福部可是要去突破的是因為即便剛才淑芬委員講的這個職場教保服務中心他還是受制於我們的幼照法所以還是事實上是2到6那現在如果0到2跟2到6合併在那本來分屬在不同兩部法裡面那你怎麼去處理這些事情因為如果聽起來淑芬委員要的是0到6合在一起"},{"start":8242.995,"end":8264.665,"text":"可是本來是分屬兩部法的一個管理那要獨立在外嗎還是怎麼樣因為他的確這部法裡邊就是這個辦法裡邊的確是混零混零事實上是因為幼照法本來二到三是不跟人家混的三到六才可以混的他現在是二到六都可以混可是現在你零到二要混起來可是又分屬在兩部法裡邊可能要去思考的是這而且是兩個部會"},{"start":8268.19,"end":8296.686,"text":"這可能有沒有要獨立在怎麼樣去所以我才說第三條是不是要去保留考慮到偏鄉還是要另外拉出來怎麼做否則我現在說我是不贊成是放在這邊要第九款去談這個東西為什麼因為這第九款有公私跟政府部門而且公營的話我更認為要以孩子權益可是偏鄉有考慮到也以孩子權益為主的時候可能因為還是要他的就學的權益或就託的權益"},{"start":8297.446,"end":8322.674,"text":"那去做一些從一些去考量可是在這時候又把公司跟政府部門的混雜在一起的時候那你們要脫鉤可能要去思考到兩部法的那個關係還有兩個部會以後評鑑或者是檢查或者是誰要去管我覺得這也會是一個問題所以我覺得如果這樣的話大家同不同意如果有這麼多的問題等楊耀偉發言完看大家同不同意先不先保留啦來 楊耀偉"},{"start":8324.796,"end":8331.001,"text":"我們互助性托育機構其實它存在很多困難除了剛剛的硬體設備以外就是"},{"start":8340.034,"end":8356.757,"text":"你真的要細分到托嬰托育其實我在這邊直接講啦其實根本就不可能啦那0到6他的照顧人力到底要怎麼配置"},{"start":8358.118,"end":8380.43,"text":"這個都是一個困難我覺得你們在除了立法過程以外就是真正的要去了解離島偏向到底對 其實我說人力造物比就好了他可能一個小離島他本身住的居民就很少所以他需要"},{"start":8383.411,"end":8392.196,"text":"托嬰托育的人數就更少而國家也不能因為他少所以不去做這件事"},{"start":8393.325,"end":8413.757,"text":"那怎麼在困難之中把所需要的人力印尼的部分剛剛講過把所需要的人力配置好讓他 我講白一點啦其實也不用想像得太過完美啦"},{"start":8415.438,"end":8431.789,"text":"可是就必須要可行然後以兒少最佳的利益為宗旨這樣子去做啦不用建構的好像很這個他事實上有困難啦好不好"},{"start":8433.615,"end":8461.21,"text":"好,來麻煩吳亦華委員你又建構了什麼?中壁樓才好,但是現在的確是如果跨了兩個部會然後跨了兩部法律,它有建合上的管理商會的確是有,但如果很複雜,我看到最後是沒有了到最後答案,進步化的新聞,離島偏鄉、原鄉還是沒有了"},{"start":8470.836,"end":8485.49,"text":"我特別提一下就是一起討論這個互助式托育機構因為他有提因應離島偏遠地區原住民族地區的特殊性那我要說明一下因為互助式"},{"start":8486.491,"end":8513.47,"text":"我們原住民地區叫部落互助教保中心他申請的資格就會明定沒有任何公私誘的這些誘教托育機構所以他一定是沒有任何公私誘的這個機構所以他們長期本來就很希望零到六就是混零全部收這是地方的需求"},{"start":8514.611,"end":8540.069,"text":"那我想這個部分如果說因為我特別是因為聽到剛剛我們政府機關回應說另外處理所以我其實只是想要知道就是另外處理的意思是什麼那但是我要表明就是互助教保這種機構在原住民地區它就是本來就長期我們也可以講啦它本來就是零到六通通一起收啦要不然它要丟到哪裡去謝謝"},{"start":8544.607,"end":8546.392,"text":"王振旭委員之後再王一鳴委員"},{"start":8547.17,"end":8574.284,"text":"好謝謝根據剛剛我們在討論有關於這個第九款複製式托育機構事實上我們在第20條有一些相關這方面比較完整的處理模式那張雅琳委員也提一個臨時動議針對於在哪一些情形之下需要用粉零式的托育服務模式來處理我想大家也同時可以參考一下第20條裡面相關的一些條文內容以上"},{"start":8578.052,"end":8603.788,"text":"好 那個剛剛提到互助式托育機構的部分我覺得在實務上的確不能去忽略這個在原鄉地區他們傳統以來其實就是用這樣子的一個模式就是說我們在訂定任何的法令的時候也是要看到現實的情況跟尊重它的文化差異跟它的特殊性所以這個部分我覺得它可能很難用你原來的整套的要求去套到"},{"start":8608.48,"end":8633.219,"text":"呃原住民地區我覺得他是執行常會有困難因為他很明顯他那邊不會有專就是訓練有素的這個教保人員就在現場但是你可能可以呃有另外一套要求他們可能呃主動去提供一些訓練上面或什麼就等於是有點因地制宜那一方面滿足需求一方面你又可以是呃"},{"start":8634.66,"end":8661.67,"text":"有一些专业的概念带进去他在专业在安全上面至少他可以符合我是觉得这一块保有一些的弹性去处理是必要的他没有办法完全比照一般的规则如果是这样子可能就是没有就是他长不出来他永远长不出来因为他条件就是完全的不一样因为过去在莫拉克风灾那时候在民间团体服务山上那边很山上那边"},{"start":8663.584,"end":8689.706,"text":"就是出現這個問題你要找他們有需求但是你要找專業的教保人員沒有啊就是就是不會有人這樣子所以這一塊我覺得可以再多討論了因為今天也有我們原名的委員在現場我有兩位對然後我覺得這一塊的確我我的意見是應該要考量到他的特殊性但怎麼樣去兼顧到在照顧上面給他一些必要的知識跟安全這個可能是"},{"start":8692.039,"end":8720.665,"text":"你們在政策上要去討論的那另外一個我想就叫的就是事實上在我的版本裡面我有提到公共化居家托育這樣的概念就是說在政府裡面如果是由主管機關縣市主管機關你們去聘的這一類這個將來你們要叫什麼會不會有這一種就比較弱勢的孩子你們是用保姆你是直接用寄養的系統還是你會還是有可能有一些是你政府指定他是合格的保姆"},{"start":8721.158,"end":8733.682,"text":"但是他是在提供相關的服務會不會有這一塊這個是有民間團體提出來所以我也提出來就叫這個衛福部這樣以上來請衛福部回答"},{"start":8736.367,"end":8749.357,"text":"針對王委員所提到的部分目前確實在行政院的版本裡面並沒有特別去設計這樣的一個公共式的,這樣的一個型態的托育服務"},{"start":8752.279,"end":8774.829,"text":"那事實上這也跟我們報告說我們現在在兒童扶育那個對不起在兒少法的目前修正的一個的策略上面那基本上我們大概對於如果他將來沒有辦法在家家內安置的部分他需要做家外在需要安置到家外的部分原則上我們還是傾向於盡可能是從親屬"},{"start":8776.81,"end":8799.935,"text":"計家然後現在會有一些叫做團體家庭然後到機構大概用這樣的方式去做一個安置的順序那在最不得已的狀態之下會有一些立法上面還是會有一個其他的安置機構大概用這樣的方式那在其他的部分的話我們大概在立法處理上這樣會從一個比較嚴格或者是一個必要性的上面去做一個比較周密的管理"},{"start":8800.495,"end":8803.518,"text":"我們第三條就先行保留因為有很多東西要處理 請衛福部去把因為兩部法各自去拘束著不同的"},{"start":8821.383,"end":8837.044,"text":"如果一開始你這事實上就已經本來就是0到2歲又要去滿足到6歲可能要再去做一些你們自己內部去做討論那我們接下來進行第4條總共20個委員提案的版本還有1條修正"},{"start":8840.939,"end":8858.922,"text":"那請衛福部先做說明有關第四條的部分那各委員的其中大概跟行政版本有比較不同的地方大概有幾處那一個是傳評委員的版本那看林初峰委員的版本羅廷瑋委員的幾位委員的版本那大概都有"},{"start":8860.104,"end":8875.18,"text":"參照幼照法的默見教育部主管的幼照法第七條第三項條文有增訂一個要提供兒童優質普及平價及競變性的托育服務有增列這樣子的文字那第二點那也是有關陳平委員林淑君委員的"},{"start":8875.72,"end":8896.286,"text":"的部分有要求是這個在第四條要去增訂一項要和中央主管機關要辦理托育需求調查跟公開結果那另外何委員、王玉明委員那有在提案要增列居家托育人員、托育人員、主管人員的一個人力規劃"},{"start":8897.566,"end":8919.106,"text":"那這邊大概都是針對於資源的的增訂的規劃的部分都有相關建議的文字那其他各位委員的版本大體上在行政委員的大概就是文字上面有一些用法上面稍微有一些出入的地方那衛福部這邊大概做了說明那我們大概參考了各位委員的版本那我們建議"},{"start":8920.067,"end":8934.244,"text":"在這個有關在托育的部分目前政府確實是在就兒童托育的部分在做相關的努力所以我們建議可以在第四條的第三項前面可以去甄列政府應提供"},{"start":8935.064,"end":8952.664,"text":"兒童優質普及評價及競變性之托育服務把各位委員的一些意見拿進來然後第二個那就是有關在資源相關的調查的部分那我們也會這個參考林委員和陳委員的版本那我們會建議是不是在第四項"},{"start":8954.606,"end":8968.875,"text":"再列一個第四項就是中央主管機關應定期辦理托育需求調查那公開其統計及分析的結果據以訂定托育服務政策以上那個鄭天才委員之後陳培鈺委員"},{"start":8987.136,"end":9016.074,"text":"有关这个第4条第4条行政案版本的第三项是写政府对处于离岛偏远地区或因经济身心文化与族群而有协助需求之儿童应优先提供适当托育服务的机会我是这个参考这个社会救助法里面所以我在我的第4条的第三项"},{"start":9017.194,"end":9038.002,"text":"是把它明确化了把明确化就是政府对于低收入户中低收入户特殊精益家庭身心障碍原住民离岛及偏远地区之儿童应优先提供适当托育服务的机会请大家能够这个支持以上"},{"start":9039.653,"end":9055.083,"text":"好 请沈蔓玉委员发言之后吴丽华委员好 谢谢主席我刚很开心听到卫福部这边说我们希望有定期调查并且把这个调查的统计跟分析结果作为政策很重要的参考那相关文字我们都还可以再讨论"},{"start":9055.823,"end":9074.049,"text":"主要我們當時提這個版本就是希望參照耳哨全法第13條不管是死亡原因回溯或者是相關身心發展社會參與相關統計資料我們認為有統計資料才能作為決策很重要的參考我想等一下文字的部分我們來討論應該就沒有太大的問題以上謝謝來吳立華委員"},{"start":9079.264,"end":9092.352,"text":"好 謝謝主席在第4條的部分我這邊有做兩個地方的一個文字修訂第一個部分我們的條文是有寫到政府對處於離島偏遠"},{"start":9096.235,"end":9105.906,"text":"或因經濟身心文化族群而有協助需求但是我特別希望就是要寫原住民地區為什麼因為雖然離島偏鄉"},{"start":9110.751,"end":9125.441,"text":"也是屬於原住民地區但是他沒有涵蓋到都會區的原住民孩子所以這個部分我希望特別就是還是要把原住民族地區寫上去另外一個部分就是增訂"},{"start":9126.481,"end":9155.661,"text":"增订一段文字就是写说中央主管机关应定期办理托育资源及需求调查公开其统计及分析之结果并据以定定托育服务政策那为什么要这样说因为我们在那时候在讨论那个原住民主健康法的时候也是很强调这一点就是很多对原住民所提供的一些分析资料有时候我们很担心都是凭感觉"},{"start":9156.661,"end":9180.235,"text":"所以我覺得我們還是必須要有一定的一個資源與需求的調查公開的統計跟分析結果我覺得應該要根據這個事實來去規劃托育政策不要只是說憑一般的感覺那這樣子就會失準那最後也沒有辦法解決到真正的原住民地區的一個需求跟問題以上 謝謝"},{"start":9183.417,"end":9209.778,"text":"我對於這個衛福部看起來好像把我們的版本放進來看起來我覺得有疑慮因為我們開宗明義宣誓說政府要提供兒童優質普及平價及競變性的托育服務這個是所有全部的兒童"},{"start":9211.021,"end":9239.984,"text":"但是你提了建議的修正的版本你現在是跟我們跟離島偏鄉連在一起看起來很像是就是否離島和偏遠地區而已怎麼可以這樣子所以我還是堅持如果你們願意放進來要苛責於政府要提供的托育服務就是優質的普及的平價的競變性的那是否全部的所以要照我們的版本第一個"},{"start":9240.902,"end":9250.609,"text":"第二個我們也是樂意看到說他們把我們最後一項放進來但是我覺得有一個我突然想到的因為"},{"start":9251.98,"end":9271.399,"text":"政府所有過去的政策和資源上從來沒有看到居家托育這一塊那我們是不是說中央主管機關應該定期辦理托育需求調查公開其統計及分析之結果並具以訂定托育政策之後再加一句以及居家托育人力的育成與規劃"},{"start":9274.461,"end":9303.01,"text":"對我們希望中央政府你上次跟我們講說一半一半嘛機構式的托育一半另外一半是居家式托育那我們對於居家托育人力的老化甚至是無法銜接那但是台灣人來普遍來講其實也還算是蠻喜歡居家托育的所以在這種狀況裡面我們希望政府要看重而且要鼓勵而且當然要納管的更仔細"},{"start":9303.77,"end":9325.524,"text":"所以把我剛剛講最後一項加上最後一句以及居家托育人力的育成與規劃這樣放進去那我剛剛講的提供兒童優質普及平價及精密等於是啦都照林淑芬所提的這個版本這樣才可以否則他這個給我們的修正東西有詐有詐啦"},{"start":9326.929,"end":9333.291,"text":"我請教一下衛福部你們修正的這個版本因為剛剛林淑芬委員是她提說另外還要獨立居家托育調查你們事實上有提到定期辦理托育需求調查那在這部法裡面"},{"start":9354.853,"end":9381.048,"text":"講到托育兩個字應該要包含就是機構室跟居家室全部都包含在裡面所以不會只是就是選擇所以我是建議因為法條也不以非常的反覆就是說可能是的確如果有涵蓋到這樣的一個面向的話那特別有一些比較細的剛剛淑芬有點提醒的譬如說你現在居家的部分可能是做得比較少的"},{"start":9381.724,"end":9401.431,"text":"是不是可以透過那個附帶決議或者是在立法的說明裡面就是說我們的托育需求調查其實是涵蓋機構是他涵蓋全部但是他們是重機構輕人輕居家你講的那個或許可以有附帶決議希望他可以增加沒有沒有不能附帶決議我們講這個是"},{"start":9404.272,"end":9414.799,"text":"因為從業人口的老化居家托育的人力從業人口老化那你的怎麼育成你的規劃是什麼也要一併放進來這個定期檢討就放在說明或什麼吧不行啦就放在這裡這樣有點怪不會不會因為他們眾機構輕居家托育這很像政策描述不是法條的描述"},{"start":9429.048,"end":9431.811,"text":"你再想想你的那個方向我認同但是寫進法條我現在講最後一項就是說因為他定期調查需求那定期盤點資源那你把你定期的調查和盤點的公開給大家看然後來調整作為政策調整的這個依據那我是講說那你們的居家人力的"},{"start":9453.613,"end":9472.562,"text":"這個因為人力老化嘛 從業人員越來越少嘛所以你的居家服務室的這個托育的這個人力的培育和這個計劃你應該也要納進來是因為他們不納進來啦因為他們以前所有政策都全部只有機構式的"},{"start":9474.973,"end":9486.102,"text":"放進來啦 不能緊啦 要包含啦 或是包含啦 應包含這個東西社會委員講完好 那請衛福部針對社會委員的意見做回覆非常感謝主席 還有各位委員的提示我先報告一下 我要來接觸這個處長其實我對這個是做我的感應門委員你放心 這個絕對不會有詐你放心 你剛才說的那個"},{"start":9499.833,"end":9506.976,"text":"我們不太想啦而且我跟你說我過去在台中做社會局長我也知道那個委員過去也非常支持嘛我也知道居家現在那個脫離聯盟那邊他也有說保母確實有年齡高齡化的問題所以這個問題我一定來處理來改觀委員你放心這個部分我們絕對不會是機構跟這個居家一定都要均衡發展"},{"start":9525.643,"end":9551.294,"text":"沒有啦 這個我們不是講放不放心啦就是條文裡面就是說你在盤點資源和需求的時候要納入這個居家這個托育人力的育成和規劃啦好啊 可以啊或者是就是在第一句裡面講說辦理托育資源及需求調查那我們在後面講應包含這個居家托育人力的育成和規劃"},{"start":9553.416,"end":9566.373,"text":"這樣子然後公開統計及分析結果並具以訂定托育服務政策就是你的資源盤點和需求調查還要納入這個居家托育人力的預承和規劃這樣子"},{"start":9569.947,"end":9586.241,"text":"來 微服部 你的文字怎麼調整再說啦但是 你說叫我們放心那顯然你對於優質普及 平價 即便性的土地服務你們是願意的嘛那如果是願意的話你開宗免疫就宣誓就放在第一項裡面不需要放在 跟離島偏鄉放在一起"},{"start":9587.867,"end":9612.595,"text":"所以衛福部這邊 因為剛剛委員的意見中準來看的話就是第一個是要把兒童優質普及平價及避免性的恢復放在前面開通明明就講 第一項第二個事實上是吳立華委員提的要加原住民地區這邊你這邊有沒有意見還有能不能做到 還有一個事實上是增加的確居托人員的就是在家裡居托人員的話事實上是"},{"start":9613.396,"end":9623.909,"text":"年齡逐漸大然後呢若沒有配套的話的確那個育成如果OK的話那民眾又比較期待事實上是在居托室的"},{"start":9625.397,"end":9648.255,"text":"服務來提供那你這有沒有要去加進去可以嗎還是整體的人員的能夠提升因為現在像機構也有一點事讓人員都是補足到做缺工那要放在剛剛玉敏委員是說要放在後邊的去做布袋決議所以你們的意見是什麼"},{"start":9649.301,"end":9659.253,"text":"這樣啦 我想就是按照剛剛委員的一個建議我想應該都可以來配合 剛剛玉銘委員剛剛所說的這個部分還是就放進來"},{"start":9663.112,"end":9688.348,"text":"OK好我可以針對這一點也稍微說明一下我的意見就是說其實剛剛大家都很希望把它的範圍涵括得更好可是有時候我們也了解如果在這個法條裡面寫得太繁複的話所以能不能用立法說明來補充這一塊這樣的話可不可以同時來兼顧大家的需要OK好可以"},{"start":9689.528,"end":9707.176,"text":"就是精神上按照剛剛委員所說但是我們看看要沒有啦我們文字最後的最終版本到時候拿出來看再說啦先不要急著說在法條裡面或是說明欄裡面因為我會怕啦委員你吃是不用的那我們第四條就有保留鎮委員"},{"start":9724.825,"end":9748.744,"text":"因為剛才衛福部並沒有做對我的提案的條文做回應因為現在行政院版是寫著或因經濟、身心、文化與族群而有協助需求之兒童"},{"start":9749.835,"end":9775.854,"text":"事实上未来在执行上你们也会没有那么具体因经济身心文化与族群就不是很具体所以我才会去这个参考这个社会救助法包括其他的相关的法律就很明确的就是说对于低收入户中低收入户特殊敬意家庭"},{"start":9776.514,"end":9788.72,"text":"身心障碍原住民離島及偏野地區就會比較具體在在執行上這個地方政府在執行上會比較具體所以這個部分也請這個衛福部那個採納以上"},{"start":9793.923,"end":9804.928,"text":"謝謝鄭委員的提示那其實在原來立法的方向上面其實政府版跟委員基本上是方向利益是一樣的那我們為什麼當初選擇用在對於"},{"start":9807.99,"end":9825.945,"text":"大概是用兩個方式來處理一個是地點就是離島跟偏遠地區那第二個呢就是他的個人的情況那我們是寫的比較這個保留一點彈性包括了經濟、身心、文化、族群然後有需求的兒童"},{"start":9826.565,"end":9847.127,"text":"那這個這樣的一個比較有彈性的時候那他某種情況之下他在操作的時候是當然像委員所鄭委員所提到的包括不管是這個低收中低收特進等等這一類的他本來就應該都可以都是可以讓進來的沒有問題那實務上操作有時候看到就是剛好在邊緣的"},{"start":9848.548,"end":9864.781,"text":"那因為我們如果是在條文上就全部都寫得很明確的就是低收中低收的時候在邊緣的時候有時候在操作會有一點點困難所以我們當時在考慮在這一類狀況的時候我們大概文字上是要保留一點點彈性其實當初的用意是希望說能夠在這個"},{"start":9867.043,"end":9878.77,"text":"只要是這個托育的量能足夠的情況之下能夠保留一定程度的彈性主要是這一點但是維園的這個方向我們是完全支持的以上說明"},{"start":9897.453,"end":9915.093,"text":"那我們這一條第四條就還是還是才保留好來我們接下來進行第五條第五條有20個委員提案然後一個修正動議那請衛福部做說明"},{"start":9918.813,"end":9930.32,"text":"第五條的部分各委員除了跟行政院版本相同的地方之外比較有不一樣的設計的第一點是有關王玉民委員、邱鶴華委員"},{"start":9937.384,"end":9963.535,"text":"等的提案裡面有提案要甄列就是要協助托育人員組織及家長組織的成立好那這個部分的話我們是建議在這邊的話有關他的這個有關因為人民團體的部分他其實是這個人民有解釋的自由其實這個部分方向讓我們都完全的尊重那但是這個是不是要去組織還是有這個相關的不管是這些"},{"start":9964.695,"end":9990.854,"text":"家長或者是托育人員他自己的意願的部分那我們這個現行的法規就已經可以處理所以當初沒有特意的去把它分列進來那第二點是有關何信聰委員王玉明委員等等所提列的增加了托育人員托育人員及主管人員的人力之規劃那這個部分我們是在"},{"start":9992.595,"end":10016.702,"text":"這個我們剛才在前面的第4條裡面那因為在人力的部分大概有做一些相關的處理我們是建議是不是可以從併同第4條都要保留的條文在文字整理之後可以併在第4條裡面做一併的處理那大概以上大概主要有不太一樣的設計的地方以上說明好請問那個各位委員有沒有意見第5條"},{"start":10027.762,"end":10052.923,"text":"沒有的話第五條來 請孫恩維有 我們的版本其實就是說第五條的第一項的第一款這比較參考兒少全法 幼兆法 明定中央主管機關的事項然後裡面有第一款就是加入推廣和實驗"},{"start":10055.135,"end":10072.234,"text":"推广和实验或许未来会有实验性的这种服务出现我们难以想象因为世界也变化很快那再来就是第二项第二项里面前项第六款全国性托育服务基本资料至少应包含全国居家托育服务"},{"start":10072.955,"end":10096.588,"text":"那因為我們整部法跟行政院版不一樣的地方包括說我們希望客者中央要不要定出一個這個統一的制定出各地區的收費這個收費標準然後說我們這裡面納入了托育機構服務的收費項目和數額這樣的一個東西這個是這個是一樣的跟你們的不同在哪裡"},{"start":10105.817,"end":10111.884,"text":"沒有我們是家服務抱歉是家服務托育機構的服務"},{"start":10116.474,"end":10117.355,"text":"其他委員還有王一鳴委員"},{"start":10146.926,"end":10171.984,"text":"那個請教一下我的版本裡面其實剛剛有特別提到就是說協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立那這個剛剛你們是說這個是市社內政部不在你們這邊但是托育人員你們是整個托育的主管機關就是說如果他們有遇到一些在過程上面需要協助的我不曉得放進來你們有覺得很不妥嗎"},{"start":10175.56,"end":10184.767,"text":"要不然就是放進來應該是如果真的有遇到這樣他們要組織相關的組織你作為主管機關提供協助我覺得是合理另外一個在那個"},{"start":10185.871,"end":10204.253,"text":"你們有特別提到是收費項目與數額但是我的版本有增加退費項目與基準那可能你們要解釋一下在你們的版本裡面呢托育機構之收費項目與數額評鑑結果不立處分及其他相關事項那我的有多增加退費項目與基準"},{"start":10206.395,"end":10215.482,"text":"那你的版本有涵盖退费项目与基准吗是在哪一个部分如果没有我建议应该要纳入以上谢谢"},{"start":10216.928,"end":10238.608,"text":"那我這邊請衛福部這邊等會也回覆因為本來我的修正動議有去列因為過去一直以來你們把一般安置跟緊急安置跟收出養的安置都安置在保母家我覺得實為不妥因為那個強度不太一樣所以我在這邊去列了第八款是一兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第56條第一項"},{"start":10240.089,"end":10266.416,"text":"各款情形得運用適當的居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的時候並建立相關評估標準照顧期間教育訓練訪視等機制以防凱恩再度的發生所以我覺得這個事實上是勢必你們要去處理問題否則現在很多縣市還是把一般安置和景安都安置在保母家然後又用一般的這樣的居托的管理的一個強度很低的去做管理的時候勢必就是"},{"start":10266.816,"end":10294.626,"text":"有可能未來會再發生所以我覺得你們要去做考慮本來就應該而不是任由各縣市政府這樣子做所以我覺得法規明定而不是用一個原則來規管那基本上各縣市不會這樣子按照你的原則來做那第九項是希望能夠協助托育人員組織因為托育人員常常他們如果沒有一些協會或公會的組織的話沒有辦法保障他們的權益還有家長組織的成立那最後大概"},{"start":10295.126,"end":10319.245,"text":"因為這樣子的增加第二項因為前項我剛講第八款的評估標準照顧期間教育訓練方式跟其他應准形式上應該要主管機關定制不是用原則來解決問題那個位階非常的低就沒有辦法保障兒童權益所以這八跟九甚至增加第二項我請剛剛運民委員提的還有我這邊提的請你們做回覆"},{"start":10333.736,"end":10352.374,"text":"針對林委員這邊剛才所垂詢在針對修正動力要所增列的第八款和第九款的部分第九款其實這個部分我們原來的設想就是它主要是涉及到人民的結社權這個東西主管機關是不是要去協助因為"},{"start":10355.277,"end":10373.978,"text":"還是要是前提是既然是協助的角色還是這些團體或者相關的人員他主動要有去結社的意願那大概主管機關在後面才有去參與的角色那但是在這邊第五條原來在寫的就是說這個是主管機關一定要辦的事項那所以這個繫住於"},{"start":10376.1,"end":10400.356,"text":"團體或者是個別的民眾他有沒有要去結社之後然後主管機關才要介入的部分所以當時再加上現在有相關人團或者是工會等等相關的法令已經有在的時候所以我們就沒有特別沒有刻意去把這個條文納進來那第八款的部分有關在使運用這個拘托人員去做相關的評估的部分的話這個部分我們"},{"start":10401.397,"end":10415.177,"text":"這個因為現在兒少法同時也在做進行相關的研修那所以如同剛才跟各位報告的那未來如果說他在這個兒童做家外安置的時候他是要運用到這個"},{"start":10416.198,"end":10443.068,"text":"如果運用到這個居家托育人員或者是其他的安置處所的話那個不是原來在兒少法裡面所明定的安置處所的時候那這個將來在相關的評估跟處理的部分我們現在原來的立法構想是在兒少法裡面去做比較詳細的規範所以我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能可以容我們就是併到兒少法裡面做一併的處理那以上的建議 謝謝"},{"start":10446.703,"end":10461.994,"text":"我先針對你這個 因為像這個推服專法當初就已經討論大概三年的時間 兒少權法也在已經也是討論大概也差不將近三年的時間 那現在因應"},{"start":10464.341,"end":10475.28,"text":"凱凱你這個才送進來本來去年5月20日之前我們就希望是能夠送進來就拖了一年多的時間那現在兒少全法我相信也不會這麼快可是這段期間還是有"},{"start":10477.148,"end":10504.731,"text":"幼兒安置在保母家可是你的強度這麼低那我認為先行還是放在這邊因為至少這個托育服務專法現在已經現在在討論那如果說這個會期通過的話至少我們可以保障到孩子的權益而不是等到因為我們也不知道你兒少全法什麼時候會出來就像這邊也有跟兒少全法競合關係像49條那還是會先以這個先走因為這個還是比較符合兒權公約的一個概念所在所以我們認為說要"},{"start":10506.624,"end":10517.643,"text":"用到你要放在耳哨全法再去做處理而且現在用原則的話強度不夠強的話對耳哨的權益事實上實質受到很大的影響好那那個培育委員"},{"start":10522.418,"end":10549.106,"text":"好謝謝主席我其實想要附和剛剛主席說的啦主要是因為其實我們當時在修這個法的時候我相信大部分的人其實想到就是一般家庭的小孩那但是確實如同月琴主席剛剛說的在這段期間我們其實看到數字還是在節節上升那上一次在質詢的時候我們也有拜託衛福部在這件事情上要趕快有些動作那既然這個法有機會"},{"start":10550.126,"end":10579.125,"text":"在這兩次的會議當中有機會通過我認為我們先行把這個放進去應該沒有問題那兒少全法後續修法的時候因為我們這邊已經放進來了後續兒少全法修法我認為寫起來應該就不會有漢格的問題所以我認為還是要拜託衛福部做考量那也許等一下再請衛福部回應那至於剛淑芬委員說的關於那個托育人員必須有相關協助讓他們有相關的組織為了他們增盟那其實在我的版本我是寫在第40條所以如果等一下"},{"start":10580.767,"end":10606.79,"text":"如果有相关的讨论可以进行的话我们也希望也许一并放进来或者是放在别的条文如果卫福部也觉得可以的话我们也很希望可以看到相关专业的组织协助居托人员或者是保姆他们相关的增能这件事情其实非常非常的重要因为孩子们的状况其实相对是复杂的主要是来自于外在社会环境的变动那如果我们在增能这件事情上卫福部有更积极的角色我认为对于"},{"start":10607.21,"end":10613.694,"text":"看起來好像是直接服務於這些大人,但所有大人的增能,最後都會投射在對孩子的服務身上。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":10637.153,"end":10641.794,"text":"那所以我們現在還是 那要上洗手間的 我們的政府部門也是這樣請自便 麻煩那個"},{"start":10663.704,"end":10668.836,"text":"衛福部這邊針對於我剛才還有培育委員的那你們做回覆"},{"start":10674.881,"end":10695.638,"text":"謝謝兩位委員的提醒確實這個在有關運用居家托育人員做家外安置的部分這個在現在的社會觀點社會觀照的部分確實有一定的急迫性只是我們當初在想說為什麼沒有刻意放進來主要是考慮到說因為它主要是這個在運用的時候它是跟"},{"start":10696.878,"end":10718.949,"text":"總體跟在做家外安置的時候是有比較高的連動性為了將來在做家外安置的時候在法規適用跟在參考上面比較能夠一致性的考慮所以當時沒有特別考慮說我們會建議是說這個部分是不是擺在耳哨權法裡面他在管理上比較周延"},{"start":10719.489,"end":10744.526,"text":"那當然如果說這個最後委員們在考慮說有這個有時間上的急迫性的話那這個最後討論結果我們當然還是我們當然都尊重那第二個就是有關在這個托育人員組織跟家長組織的部分那這個部分的話其實主管機關在來這邊做相關的跟人員的互動跟協助其實我們來做其實也都還"},{"start":10745.427,"end":10767.009,"text":"本來就會有一定程度的互動和協作那在這個如果說在組織的成立的部分的話那如果是針對是已經這一類的不管是家長的家長或者是工作人員之間已經有考慮要去成立相關的組織那我們就這個原則上我們大概也都尊重最後委員會審議的結果以上"},{"start":10768.339,"end":10783.773,"text":"好 我個人還是不同意因為這邊就是管保母的那在這邊把保母管理的時候去做分級我覺得某一類的保母或者是說要照顧這類兒童的時候你到時候在兒少全法加外安置的時候你可以去針對加外安置有一些條件"},{"start":10784.133,"end":10809.986,"text":"可是這邊還是管保姆過去就是一直法律不清楚才會讓我們的很多縣市政府都用這種方法來安置而上中央也沒有配套只是訂一些原則而且是111年才訂那這中間不知道有多少孩子因為這樣子而喪命所以我覺得還是要去考慮所以我認為還是要訂在這邊來把保姆的管理的強度放在這個托育服務專法裡面來做管理所以我比較堅持是這一塊"},{"start":10811.837,"end":10824.405,"text":"因為我就不再允許讓孩子有因為這樣子照顧不當受虐或者是喪失生命所以這一步如果是沒有辦法我們就先行保留我不知道其他的委員那就保留還有我要告訴衛福部這部分我非常就是我非常堅持因為這事實上是維護孩子的權益不能再讓"},{"start":10841.621,"end":10860.276,"text":"我覺得中央不去訂任何法規然後最後又講地方說都沒有按照這樣做我這次也問你們現在各縣市到底現在還有多少是用警安也安置在保母家和一般安置然後有時候早上社福中心就把孩子丟到一個保母家什麼很多事情都沒有交代然後"},{"start":10860.956,"end":10883.798,"text":"我覺得相信保母也壓力很大還有一個事實上他過去沒照顧說我都不太知道孩子的狀況也沒有一個人來跟我說明然後就接了這樣孩子如果發生意外的話還要保母來承擔甚至如果這個孩子事實上是全天候都事實上是保母在照顧這個保母如果狀況不OK的話就孩子可能會受到很大的傷害所以我對這部分我比較堅持所以我們就先行保留"},{"start":10890.066,"end":10893.469,"text":"那第6條我們去接下來好第6條那第6條有20個委員提案有20案來請衛福部做說明"},{"start":10900.01,"end":10922.125,"text":"第六條是規範直轄市縣市政府的執掌大概跟行政院版的委員各個各位委員的版本和行政院的版本大概有比較不一樣的內容有比較不一樣的地方第一點是有關王育民委員在設計上面有增列一個有關親子教育的規劃跟辦理針對這一點我們這個是考慮到說"},{"start":10927.409,"end":10945.43,"text":"這個因為本法是針對這個托育的部分的定定的一個管理的專法那主要的規範的對象還是以這個托育的人員和托育的機構為管理的核心那在親子教育的部分那如果是未來在實施的操作還是以這個"},{"start":10946.792,"end":10964.174,"text":"兒童他的本身的法定代理人或者實際照顧兒童之人來做主要的規範的對象的話我們會建議這個部分是不是可以因為在兒校權法已經有相關的規定那另外教育部也已經有家庭教育法相關的規定我們建議是不是有可能就是"},{"start":10964.654,"end":10987.242,"text":"回到這兩個已經現行的法律來做一個相關的處理那第二點是有關在吳佩儀委員在建議有提案要增訂直轄市縣市在這個零脫的部分的規劃要增列零脫的規劃執行輔導監督那零脫目前在行政上"},{"start":10988.282,"end":11014.689,"text":"食物的执行管理的部分那其实就是在居家服务里面的一个投与服务的形态的一种那已经可以在我们现行的条文里面其实他和现行条文第一款基本上是大概已经可以纳进去所以是不是我需要单独单列一款的部分可能就看看委员这边讨论的结果那其他的委员各委员的版本大概都是文字的部分和"},{"start":11015.55,"end":11020.775,"text":"行政委員的委員大概在事項上面或是敘寫的方式有一些稍微有一些調整以上說明陳昭志委謝謝主席這一個第六條我對一條本身內容沒有特別的意見但是其中在權責的部分有一件事情我要想請教衛福部一個態度問題就是目前有呈現一個一國多治的問題"},{"start":11039.133,"end":11043.574,"text":"因為直轄縣市政府是第一線負責去監督檢查跟開罰的人但是現在根據兒少法的規定有些地方政府他在進行開罰的時候沒有依照勤節輕重次數等等去訂定裁罰的基準表通常都是用最低的裁罰"},{"start":11058.018,"end":11083.652,"text":"那從來沒有進行過真正的加重處罰那只有少數譬如說台北市台中市因為他陸續有那個議員的監督要求下他去訂定了這個裁罰的基準表而且對於累犯累犯他有進行所謂的加重處分所以我在想說在這個部分權責的部分我想請教衛福部對於這樣的現象是不是應該要求各地方政府就他自己至少要訂一個"},{"start":11085.114,"end":11100.41,"text":"標準有一個一致的標準那當然由你們來監督或是去了解他設定這樣的標準的可行性合法性就是不要一國多治就是大家的處罰都是不一樣的讓他自己至少有個標準去依循這是全責的部分跟陳委員說明"},{"start":11104.835,"end":11124.043,"text":"那這個在裁罰的處理上面理論上裁罰的基準是由裁罰的主管機關來定那所以這個現在在托育專法裡面現在的裁罰主管機關會直轄市縣市政府所以如同剛才委員所提到的那有些縣市直轄市縣市政府他已經自己定有裁罰基準"},{"start":11124.543,"end":11151.685,"text":"那我們會持續的來督促各自家市縣市政府就他們的主管法規如果跟社會福利的部分去訂定相關的裁罰基準這個部分我們在托育服務法的部分我們現在也有在做相關的準備在立法通過之後我們會針對各縣市在訂這樣裁罰基準的時候是不是由中央先去做一個"},{"start":11152.285,"end":11166.454,"text":"有關在裁罰處理的一個一般性的原則把這樣的一個原則我們去把它處理出來讓地方政府在做裁罰去定基準的時候有一個更一致性的參考這個部分我們在立法完成之後我們會來做"},{"start":11167.395,"end":11190.223,"text":"更新跟委員做報告這樣的態度是更好的就是說中央政府如果有一套標準讓他們地方去一群就至少現在要有東西有標準可以去進行這所謂卡因為現在看到的是就是都不一致嘛好那如果說衛福部的態度是這樣那我們在應該不需要在就是原則上在這樣跑不需要在立法說明哪些地方做這樣的"},{"start":11191.873,"end":11199.664,"text":"處理嗎我們可以信任你們是往這個方向做嗎規劃的時候就已經規劃進來我們規劃進來嗎對在法律通過之後我們會來做研理那今天就是這個態度就是要清楚謝謝"},{"start":11212.261,"end":11238.055,"text":"針對於這個第六條吳佩奕委員他有提到希望增加一個第七款就是剛剛講到的臨時托育服務的部分這部分我非常認同因為臨托對很多雙性家庭或者是在照顧孩子的時候突然有一個臨時狀況他很需要臨托那這部分大家也非常的努力希望能夠"},{"start":11239.416,"end":11252.269,"text":"讓這些臨時托育的這個需求如何透過好的方式來安排所以我非常支持把這個關於飛舞人在第七款這邊來增加臨時托育的相關的規劃執行輔導跟監督機檢查以上"},{"start":11257.422,"end":11273.641,"text":"陳佩玉委好我其實也想要附和佩玉委員的提案所以我的版本沒有寫但我猜想有一個困境應該是這樣就是如果我們看到這個原來的版本沒有寫到臨時托育可能很多的人不會想到原來臨時托育也歸這個"},{"start":11275.623,"end":11301.748,"text":"所以如同卫福部刚讲的我们完全明白可是那是因为我们现在在专业立法会议上讨论所以如果配一加这一条没有影响原来的法例的话我还是建议可以加入那我认为所有相关执行的地方政府或者是后续所有人要引用这个法条的时候会更清楚的知道临时托育这件事情也是这一次修法的时候大家要考虑到的重点谢谢"},{"start":11307.278,"end":11321.296,"text":"這邊我也沒有列入不過我覺得在地方政府或中央是不是有一個你們事實上是沒有考慮進去的你講保姆要管理你講托育機構要管理"},{"start":11321.707,"end":11347.069,"text":"可是有讀漏一個要不要評鑑居家托育服務中心因為管保姆的是居家托育服務中心如果品質稱之不齊他怎麼可能把保姆管理好可是這邊整個不管是地方政府或中央都沒有列入居家托育服務中心你的規管是什麼那他又事實上是去管保姆的人保姆O不OK管好不好事實上"},{"start":11348.058,"end":11364.942,"text":"至為關鍵的是居家托育服務中心可是這裡邊通通都沒有去提到居家托育服務中心的評鑑是要放中央還放地方可是托嬰中心有喔可是居家托育服務中心事實上是管保母的反而又在不管是第五條第六條都沒有列入那是不是一併請我們的衛福部做說明包含我們剛才提到配育委員的零托這一塊以上"},{"start":11377.747,"end":11401.128,"text":"那這個如同剛才大概報告的就是我們現在在行政版的條文的第一款裡面我們原來在寫的時候就是總體托育政策的方案規劃訂定宣導研究執行所以他就包含了不管是機構式托育或者是居家托育那當然也會包含零托他可以包含在這個整個大的架構底下"},{"start":11402.609,"end":11423.03,"text":"所以如果說是不是要單獨抽出來單列一款的部分我覺得這個部分大家可以討論看看因為這個畢竟是相對是一個比較新的比較新大家會有需求的一個托育型態是不是需要單獨抽拉出來這個部分我覺得大家可以討論那林委員剛才所提到針對居家托育服務中心的部分是不是要進行評鑑"},{"start":11424.071,"end":11443.505,"text":"那也跟委員做一個報告那因為在這次托育服務法裡面我們大概已經比較把居家托育服務中心做了一個比較明確的法制上的定位他未來就是受執行室縣市機關的委託來執行相關的工作所以他的性質上已經是等於類似是在行使公權力"},{"start":11444.386,"end":11465.366,"text":"所以主管機關對他不一定需要做評鑑而是直接對他是行政上直接他是等於他的所屬要做更嚴密的監督所以在立法結構上面我們是做這樣的一個設想所以我們大概這次就沒有在條文裡面單獨還去對居家托育中心再去做評鑑的動作因為"},{"start":11467.087,"end":11479.316,"text":"評鑑大概還是有年度別還是有可能多少年評鑑一次的他的密度可能比直接的行政監督可能不見得會比這個來得高所以這個我們大概原來當時在做這樣的一個想法以上的報告 謝謝"},{"start":11482.587,"end":11492.513,"text":"好謝謝那個你剛剛特別提到那個居托中心將來會變成是執行你公權力的一環我覺得這樣子這樣的轉變的方向其實是好的因為你們現在之前可能就是在定位上沒有那麼的明確那你如果把他納尾是你們的一環的確他可能不需要是評鑑這件事而是你的行政監督指導"},{"start":11508.103,"end":11527.933,"text":"可能就是他必须配合你更多的事项完成你在法令上面或者是他进一步再去监督管理保姆的这样的一个任务那这个在你们如果是往这个方向基本上我是可以同意就是往这样的方向我觉得等于是你的手脚更多了就是说你们在"},{"start":11529.24,"end":11541.439,"text":"對所有全國裡面他們變成是你們的分身對對對變你們的分身而且去執行該有的那個督導管理這個的確是那另外一個剛提到零拖的部分"},{"start":11542.45,"end":11551.798,"text":"因為之前我在台中市也擔任副市長那林坡這一塊的確是現在實務上有需求我想剛剛證據委員特別講實務上有需求但是其實整體地方政府的量能不夠當然你們中央的支持也不夠我坦白講你們沒有在林坡這一塊過去是你們比較忽略你們並沒有很用力的去"},{"start":11567.473,"end":11573.637,"text":"支持地方或者是希望地方大力去擴展這一塊但是你可以看到現在陸陸續續長出來的這些零託服務是因著家長的需求然後他慢慢去發展出來所以第一個是全國各地方政府他的步調是不一的就是說有的可能推得比較快點比較多推得比較早那有的可能我猜可能還有還沒有的縣市政府因為像"},{"start":11595.315,"end":11604.701,"text":"嘉義縣比較偏鄉像這種比較偏鄉或許他零坡可能都還沒有長出來那這一塊比較重要的除了立法之外我是覺得你們在政策面你們可能要有一個比較好的推動的政策方向都會區的需求會很高然後在"},{"start":11616.932,"end":11636.451,"text":"在比較偏鄉的地方他需要可能是另外一種形式不是都會去推展的形式所以這部分的零拖我覺得的確如果納進來應該也是可以考慮但是我看到不是立法的問題反而是你們現在光是在政策在鼓勵在推行上面量能其實都還差蠻遠的"},{"start":11640.885,"end":11658.09,"text":"可不可以為服務部進一步做說明我不是不贊成的確過去居家拖曳服務中心它的公權力不足的時候很難執行可是可不可以告訴我們強度到什麼強度因為很多縣市政府他找不到受託機構的時候大概就勉強說只要有人來接就好了"},{"start":11658.63,"end":11685.766,"text":"那事實上常常也會有稱之不齊的很大的問題甚至過去你們自己評鑑又到丁等的一個機構來接最後也沒辦法讓他們暫停先提供服務那你未來事實上整個委託方向會是什麼樣是學校才能接還是一般民間因為大部分來接的有很大的團體可是也有地方政府完全沒有團體來接的時候找了一個非常小的團體他們自己母機構就已經事實上可能存在一些問題的時候"},{"start":11686.767,"end":11697.733,"text":"你如果要執行公權力到底強度會到多強否則再回來還是影響到海賊權益過去不是沒有縣市在執行說我要拘托中心的人去評鑑保姆結果評了優等結果"},{"start":11700.936,"end":11729.431,"text":"被揭發惡虐那你怎麼去說服社會大眾所以我的意思說要讓我們放心說你未來強度非常的強所以居托中心的委託要執行公權力沒有太大問題否則我們也很擔心的是說如果事實上是稱之不齊的時候再執行公權力最後還是影響到因為我覺得居托中心的工作人員最難的地方是他跟保姆又要合作可是又要去監督他們他們本來就有雙重的角色的時候你怎麼去做到"},{"start":11729.731,"end":11753.482,"text":"如果你要完全事實上是監督的角色那你又要怎麼做因為你畢竟還是一個是1比60的一個量不是像一般的我們兒少保的個案事實上可能1比20或是1比15那你是1比60的量你怎麼然後你怎麼去確保這個工作人員在執行工作的時候沒有太大問題尤其他母雞哥要去執行你的工作所以可不可以讓我知道說到底你們現在"},{"start":11755.383,"end":11764.674,"text":"準備怎麼做才會讓我們覺得說不要去列入在這邊應該要有一些要求在不是今天一句話就說接下來我們要讓他執行公權力可是品質呢這個是我們比較擔憂的"},{"start":11770.186,"end":11785.08,"text":"跟委員報告齁那因為這個在這次法律通過如果一旦通過的時候那居家托育服務中心的定位其實會有一個比較大的改變那它等於就是一個受託行使公權利那所以在這個"},{"start":11786.461,"end":11802.377,"text":"當它產生的時候它跟政府中間接受委託的時候其實依照行政程序法的觀念的話它其實中間就會有一個更明確的在受託行使職權的事項的時候就會有一個更完整的約定那當然在這個締約的過程裡面的時候"},{"start":11804.139,"end":11824.366,"text":"那直轄市縣市政府當然就會需要去怎麼樣去找到一個適合來執行這樣子工作的一個團體那以現在的情況來講確實我們也有接到直轄市縣市政府的反應說他在找到這樣的一個合作夥伴的時候是有遇到一些挑戰"},{"start":11825.146,"end":11851.618,"text":"那這個部分的話我們也會跟直轄市縣市政府來一併做更深入的了解是在團體的意願還是在其他周邊委託的事項的內容那還是有其他的事項上面在這個操作上有相關的困擾這個部分未來在執行面的時候我們會來了解地方政府實際上遇到的困擾來協助地方政府來解決這個找到團體的困難"},{"start":11852.859,"end":11876.718,"text":"那也會在締約的過程裡面那讓直轄市跟縣市政府和這個未來合作的這個團體中間有一個更明確的一個這個約定的內容那讓雙方的這個權限能夠更明確那也減少團體去接這樣的一個工作的時候的像可能的一些疑慮那這個部分我們大家都會來努力蘇貞瑋"},{"start":11881.591,"end":11900.404,"text":"我覺得月琴講的請大家也稍微參考一下我們的版本我們的版本在第二章裡面的居家托育事實上比行政院用嘴巴講的他現在所講的他們對居托中心未來會跟現在怎麼樣的不一樣會有什麼變革會更完善"},{"start":11905.467,"end":11922.365,"text":"都没有那我们的版本事实上在第15条我们里面大概明定了居托中心他的业务职长那他的职责然后我们也希望不是这样就好因为你受公权力的委托然后要去访试要去督导要去评鉴"},{"start":11923.266,"end":11943.438,"text":"那你必須要有法源基礎那你的居托中心的仿事督導評鑑你的人力你的消極資格是什麼積極資格是什麼都要納管而你今天在這裡空口說白話人家說你醫療的怎麼樣怎麼樣的比較好那些都假的所以我們的版本直接就法律版本裡面明定"},{"start":11944.218,"end":11971.001,"text":"我們的第15條就開始然後這個居托中心的人員的積極資格消極資格居托中心的業務執掌職責通通都寫下來所以是不是請主席參考我們的然後到居家托育的那一環的時候我們可以來討論但是呢零托這個概念其實是可以地方政府要提供這樣的服務啦對啦"},{"start":11974.926,"end":12003.428,"text":"但是我們的居托中心不能像現在這樣子竊聲為名也不能如衛福部署長剛才所講的我們未來會更好用嘴講的不好一定要法律明文規定入法法律之後再授權需要法律保留原則的通通要寫出來你要叫他去執行公權力那他法律授權法律保留出來定出來"},{"start":12004.522,"end":12025.531,"text":"然後你們有這麼高強度的權力了那你們的從業人員消極資格積極資格通通規範出來這樣子才對所以請大家到時候我們到第二章我們的版本裡面他們不想的他們不願意他們不是不想的他們不願意入法的我們其實都寫進來了那"},{"start":12030.997,"end":12043.782,"text":"現在目前居託中心的工作人員都已經資格上沒有什麼大的要求了所以我認為如果又講說以後委託就會解決這個問題我不認為以我在過去"},{"start":12044.747,"end":12073.186,"text":"在不管是產業評鑑這些我認為這樣子沒有辦法解決問題因為我們最擔心的還是事實上如果工作人員沒有對保姆有比較好的監督管理的話那還是會出事所以從這樣角度上來看那這一條是不是先行保留再跟署任委員講說15條有我們第14條是居多中心的業務執掌第15條是居多中心也要評鑑我們放在15條"},{"start":12075.93,"end":12081.678,"text":"對 後面就有1415那我們是不是到時候1415的時候再回過頭來看第6條這樣子會比較好絕對不能如署長和衛福部現在講的這個我同意這個絕對不行"},{"start":12089.375,"end":12115.023,"text":"因為今天我們討論這部法都是攸關他們年齡比較年幼的0到2歲的孩子的權益所以我們要更謹慎現在我們要跟衛福部講就是說你們想要更便宜形式的方法事實上是不行的整個社會對便宜形式已經很反彈了而我們今天在法律上如果只是單純都順從你們的架構都照你們所說的那恐怕社會也接受不了"},{"start":12115.763,"end":12124.832,"text":"我們今天的立法若是這樣都叫你那樣簡單便宜行事行政本位主義這樣子的立法出來社會會反彈因為現在到一個段落有接近12點那我們現在休息用餐下午2點繼續開會"},{"start":19789.147,"end":19814.99,"text":"好,我們下午會議繼續開始現在是進行文書評論員的第七條討論,他還有一條修正動議因為今天一共有20版,然後還有修正動議記在這裡像通常我們現在審查行政院版第七條一共有20個版本,加上一條修正動議,通常會這樣宣告"},{"start":19816.531,"end":19829.26,"text":"然後那個現在因為這一條對不上任何一條所以是單獨審他的第七條這樣子接下去審然後跟那個委員的求選動議那今天通過的就是除了這個張銘跟"},{"start":19845.087,"end":19863.758,"text":"那個林淑媛提的第七條的修正草案,因為人不在我們就先保留。好,我們接續。就是針對第七條,有學生公益第六條,還有其他總共有20個版本。請行政機關表示意見。"},{"start":19872.884,"end":19892.356,"text":"院版的第七條,林委那個也是第七條,不過林委的第七條跟這個院版的第七條是不一樣的所以那一條就先保留,我們除以院版的第七條還有一個修正動議,第五嘛對不對?第六案"},{"start":19900.543,"end":19922.492,"text":"有關行政院版的第七條的部分目前在這個主要規範的內容是包括中央主管機關和職家縣市主管機關需要去成立有關對於托育事務的一些諮詢的組織在這個部分委員提案的部分重點大概有比較不一樣的內容比較不一樣的地方有包括"},{"start":19923.012,"end":19938.772,"text":"第一個林耀勤委員、何新準委員、王玉敏委員、邱若驊委員、陳素月委員、游浩委員等人提案那有增列一項最後一項就是有關他的迴避的部分的話要准用行政程序法的規定那這個部分的話因為"},{"start":19939.753,"end":19954.777,"text":"考慮到這樣的一個諮詢會議已經是在法律裡面已經有明文的規定所以在行政程序的適用上面的話如果委員對未來這些諮詢會議的委員對於涉及自身事務或者相關部分"},{"start":19955.197,"end":19981.127,"text":"有迴避的需要的時候當然就是本來就是會準用到行政程序法有關迴避的規定所以當時在討論的時候這個條文我們就沒有特別再去寫有關是不是要再去做迴避的需要那這個部分本來是已經可以準用這是當初在立法上面的時候當初的一個想法那先做以上的說明那第二點那有關王玉民委員的提案的"},{"start":19981.807,"end":20008.107,"text":"的內容有提到甄烈是在資訊委員會如果涉及到原住民相關議題的時候應該要邀請據原住民兒童權益倡議經驗或者是從事原住民兒童托育服務的團體來參與那這點的話這個能夠關照到所有這些有需要團體這點部分其實我們非常的支持那只是說這個在條文裡面是不是只有如果是只針對原住民這一個類別的時候"},{"start":20008.967,"end":20027.754,"text":"会不会还有其他的类别的团体也需要列在条文的文法制技术上面是不是需要去做这样的处理这个部分的话可能就依照委员大家讨论的结果我们来做一定的处理大概就先做以上的说明谢谢"},{"start":20028.79,"end":20043.959,"text":"好 謝謝然後陳則事委員好 謝謝主席那個針對剛剛這個在署長的說法就衛福部對於諮詢會裡面成員有沒有做什麼利益迴避的設計那因為今年衛福部做了整個盤點"},{"start":20045.54,"end":20063.528,"text":"他把裡面所有的民意代表就立法委員全部排除掉我自己就收了兩張一張是議事司的那個鑰匙懲戒委員會一張就是健保署健保署的那個專家自立小組的部分所以我是認為這個東西不是有什麼原則的問題就因為那是還是新的他們新討論的才做出的決定"},{"start":20064.528,"end":20079.277,"text":"所以這個我還是覺得這個對於裡面的成員有沒有做利益迴避的設計還要講清楚我們就要講清楚因為我自己就在今年被衛福部盤點了兩張就是說改變而且是新的改變民意代表可不可以 有沒有漢格之處民意代表跟這個行政機關之間有沒有漢格之處還是要講清楚喔"},{"start":20094.588,"end":20121.697,"text":"好 這請林議員 請委員 可是意見可不可以請衛福部說明一下因為我們大概有幾個委員都有列身心障礙團體代表因為身心障礙團體進入到托育中心或者是到保母家的時候都有一些不一樣的可能需求在所以才會想說在這邊去列入他們那你剛剛沒有說明說為什麼你們這個不去列入 這是一個"},{"start":20122.697,"end":20148.54,"text":"另外一個就是說今天有沒有把這個委會的工作講清楚說明白是諮詢嗎諮詢只是問意見和一個我們有列入因為過去在託資會的話通常過去會有審議審議收退費這些東西那你現在沒有的話你沒有列入這個那諮詢只是諮詢意見還是未來有些審議的功能在所以是不是"},{"start":20149.361,"end":20160.087,"text":"也要講清楚說明牌所以你到底不列這個的考量是什麼以上好沒有委員其他意見我們就請來請汪委員汪委員這個確定完之後再請署長一併回應謝謝"},{"start":20164.448,"end":20190.079,"text":"好剛好這個林委員也到了現場因為第7條其實林委員也很關心剛剛一群委員提到除了這些協議規劃諮詢以外似乎也很希望有更嚴謹的處理模式尤其是未來在相關的一些不管是縮拖方式或者是有關於這個薪資的處理所以"},{"start":20191.84,"end":20217.886,"text":"兩位林委員都希望有審議的機制在裡面,所以這邊也會提供這樣的補充跟支持好,謝謝齁林書偉剛到齁,因為林書偉你還沒有到之前有審第七條你沒到先保留,因為你的第七條跟現在討論的時候的第七條是不一樣的啦齁你的是第八條啦,是第八條我們也是第七條啊"},{"start":20222.557,"end":20247.996,"text":"你的是第八條 你看一下那個表格 沒關係等一下對一下啦不是啦 因為我們的版本 行政院沒有我們的概念所以他沒有我們的這一個這個概念第七條不是在講這個諮詢會嗎院版的諮詢會啊對啊 那我們第七條我們也是審議會啊為什麼我們的版本跟他不一樣 我們是一樣的架構是一樣 內容不一樣啊這是行政院對詐的"},{"start":20251.587,"end":20265.614,"text":"沒有啦 我們的他們在中央叫諮詢會 我們要改成審議會是有道理的我們是同一條 怎麼會不同條但我們的概念是不一樣的啊為什麼說我們是第八條 我們是第七條啊來 請次長回應主席 在座各位委員 大家好我了解啦 那個主任委員所說的啦就是到底是質疑還是審議啦 對不對"},{"start":20280.168,"end":20292.099,"text":"我們是拆成兩部分第一條是中央要負責什麼然後第八條是地方要負責什麼那你們就只有只有一條而已啊"},{"start":20296.926,"end":20321.728,"text":"不好意思,我處理一下,這不是沒關係啦,你如果賣了,他的第七條就夾完,因為他對照表是第七條我是兩條,七八條,他是一條你我講完的啦,好不好,所以你如果賣的是第七條,你不想跟委員的第七條,跟現在我們所謂的第七條,跟他的第八條當作檢討,好不好,第七條、第八條,好,那就一定回應啦,好不好,好,謝謝"},{"start":20323.217,"end":20339.168,"text":"針對委員所垂詢的幾個部分簡單的說明如下林委員大概是把我們院版的第七條我們是統一規定各級主管機關要做的任務林委員把它分別針對中央主管機關和直轄市縣市主管機關分成兩條來做相關的規範"},{"start":20341.73,"end":20362.532,"text":"那第二個在這個會議的內容裡面那是要用諮詢或者是審議那這個目前現在來看我們行政院版之所以會建議先用諮詢主要是考慮到說第一個是確實有很多部分是需要做一些相關的討論那第二個是這個"},{"start":20364.534,"end":20372.456,"text":"即使是剛才有向委員提示到的像費用等等的議題最後在委員會議討論的結果最後對外公布的時候基本上都還是用行政機關的名義對外來表示"},{"start":20388.439,"end":20415.825,"text":"所以我們這個在以往的行政上面來看那他性質上面其實還是最後對外負責的不管是有中央或者地方主管機關他要承擔這個最後的一個對外表示的一個結果那所以在對內的這個爭取意見的過程不管是用審議或者是質疑其實最後對外都是由行政部門來做對外的一個表示那大概是這樣的一個過程那剛才有幾位委員所提到林惠琴委員所提到的"},{"start":20417.905,"end":20437.876,"text":"聲音障礙團體的部分這個部分的話如同剛才有提跟王一鳴委員有提到的有關原住民兒童議題的部分這個部分其實可能會面臨就是在主要是一個立法技術上面我們怎麼樣去把一個在一個"},{"start":20439.077,"end":20455.079,"text":"未來的諮詢會裡面其實委員的人數畢竟還是有一個還是在為了讓會議比較順利進行的前提之下人員的上線的時候怎麼樣去納入到相關各類的兼顧各類的族群的需要"},{"start":20455.64,"end":20475.371,"text":"那以往大概在這個托育的部分比較常會聽到的可能會包括了像有可能有原住民的可能有身心障礙的那以往大概也有可能有新住民的部分這幾個大概都是比較常聽到那說是不是還有其他的有一些族群可能有類似的需求的部分"},{"start":20475.851,"end":20493.684,"text":"所以我们这样的针对这些族群的部分其实除了他本身除了以现在如果以院版的条文他如果兼具有这些不管是服务团体学者或者是家长团体等等那有这样的身份本来就可以进来那即便"},{"start":20494.324,"end":20508.615,"text":"那沒有如果在選任的時候沒有考慮到這個部分在個別議題討論的時候仍然是可以加邀這些團體或者是相關的人員那來進來一併來納入討論那那個列舉來一併討論這個在技術上是也可以來做相對應的處理那這個最後有關陳委員所關心的這個有關迴避的部分"},{"start":20519.022,"end":20547.292,"text":"那如同剛才大概做了說明那如果這個因為現在有委員版的提案的部分那現在主要是油化委員的版本那他的文字是第一項如果委員有迴避的時候就是依照行政程序法的規定來辦理那這個如果是不是有需要在迴避的室友裡面是不是有需要再做額外的處理的我直接問立法委員可不可以在裡面嗎很多專家"},{"start":20549.878,"end":20559.629,"text":"邱部長你這個衛福部才剛剛盤點啊今年才剛剛盤點所有委員會啊把立法委員排除啊那你現在你現在你現在這裡要不要排除"},{"start":20564.569,"end":20591.114,"text":"這個當然立委中央主管機關設定的審議會裡面或是諮詢會裡面立委還去參加這又行政又立法的早就說不行了啊這還用討論嗎說不行就嘴巴講了跟你我就學你講要黑白字寫下來就那個要寫下來就是要寫下去那要寫就是不可以寫下去那個就說沒有啦你說的不尊聖啊你要寫下去也可以寫下去啦我也是不滿意這個迴避就在講清楚啦現在的事情就是寫這根本就不可以寫下去"},{"start":20592.344,"end":20598.706,"text":"你今天才盤點喔而且健保部分是重新去討論喔你們用法務重新討論並不是跟到行政程序法承認八百年前就存在了你們是新的討論然後後來又跑出一條懲戒法倫理的那個藥師懲戒法的話又自動從144把它除掉所以你整個處理不能擔任這裡面的委員就好了不要再搶到開花開到旁邊請尊重我的發言權啊"},{"start":20622.733,"end":20646.431,"text":"我走過這條路啊 今年才處理啊不是啊 討論不要開花 開到這裡去嘛我沒有開花 今天你第七條諮詢委員要回避什麼 要講清楚將來這個是很大的 搞不好很大的工程很大的產業都可能對啦 現在要回避什麼 你已經回避原則我們要聽出來 下一個的立法要清楚了 立法說明就清楚你民意代表就直接下去這個承諾 這個承諾 這是個承諾嗎"},{"start":20648.501,"end":20657.028,"text":"來 請次長回應來報告主席 這樣啦 我想我們就尊教委員的我們就發明定吧好不好 看要"},{"start":20658.846,"end":20679.978,"text":"是不是在那個說明欄這樣還是沒有啦 你也不可以把你寫一句說這些什麼委員應遵循利益迴避原則啦啊寫下去說明欄你這裡去看要放多少東西迴避啦對啦 放上去代表我們宣示產業業者不能進來重點不是立委啦 立委本來就不能進去重點是產業的業者是不是應該要迴避"},{"start":20681.679,"end":20709.457,"text":"還是像需要迴避需要迴避的恐怕是產業的業者這一種的啦立委是一定要寫上去啦立委的時候也不見得比產業界更乾淨啦立委要放進去做壞事的立委也很多沒有啦 大家都很好的啦真的啦沒有啦 大家都稱之不齊啦每個行業都一樣 有好有壞不然主席我們是不是修一下文字我們就原則上就把它放進來這樣好不好一定要放啊就要一致啊衛福部的整個作業所有的資料都需要這樣放啊好"},{"start":20710.677,"end":20712.579,"text":"那你這個承諾進去啊那你審議會裡面有這個托育機構代表那就是產業界了"},{"start":20719.642,"end":20744.25,"text":"有嗎 托育機構團體代表他就產業界了對啊他就是要 他可能是工會的好啦 OK我不確定誰是利益該迴避的啦我不知道啦除了立委以外還有誰啦所以他要講利益迴避啊那到底是誰因為我們本來不管行政院版或是我們版本其實都有這個從業人員的這個代表在裡面啦不管審議會或諮詢會啦"},{"start":20746.531,"end":20751.684,"text":"但是誰應該要立意迴避?誰?我不知道這個因為新跑出來的議題"},{"start":20754.94,"end":20773.709,"text":"陳業界委請衛福部部長大家討論看看因為在現在很多團體是有病人病人算不算利益的我不知道因為他們是直接相關的現在很多病人是那個角色所以你們思考一下但是立委你要一致民意代表你要先一致因為已經有例子了已經有兩三個會的例子了好 好嗎好 我的重點不是這樣我知道"},{"start":20777.341,"end":20795.506,"text":"那個這樣啦 我知道那個十分委員最重點就是說就兩個嘛 一個就是說中央跟地方嘛對不對但是我跟你說我是個人絕對反對諮詢會啦因為連兒校權法裡面對委員會的名稱都沒有規定那各縣市至少也統一叫做托育制度管理委員會對沒錯"},{"start":20797.086,"end":20821.987,"text":"它有管理的全責性法律上的名詞關係到它的這個位階的屬性和定位那你現在把它變成知議會就只有諮詢的性質事實上把它定成知議會諮詢會這個都比這個兒少全法裡面的管理會管理委員會還要更倒退更不要講我個人的我們的版本代表托盟所提出來版本我們是要的是審議會當然是因為功能職責職長不一樣"},{"start":20826.01,"end":20835.716,"text":"但是改成諮詢會就是倒退如何全力倒退這個是我覺得我個人是沒有辦法接受諮詢會這三個字啊好謝謝再請王委員"},{"start":20839.216,"end":20844.818,"text":"有關於第七條我想這個主管機關也要適度說明一下就是說你召開的這個是屬於政策諮詢性質的會議嗎還是是要審議的因為審議不一樣我們那個病毒法其實才剛開過"},{"start":20856.323,"end":20861.647,"text":"審議的性質是你有案子你要一個一個來審要決定過或不過那如果是屬於你政策就是說目前整個托育方向的政策那你要實行這樣的政策你要或者是有些共通的議題要召集大家來開會或者是協調基本上這兩個屬性不一樣的那原來包括我自己提出來的這個版本它應該"},{"start":20882.261,"end":20902.427,"text":"他是比較偏向是諮詢會議的性質就是說相關的托育的政策你是你要廣泛的邀請這一些跟這件事情有關的所有的代表來表示意見可能是你一個新的制度要上路或是現行的制度有什麼樣的問題是廣泛邀請大家來表示意見然後作為你政策上面的一個參考"},{"start":20903.607,"end":20929.749,"text":"所以原本我提出來的版本我們的重點其實是擺在這邊那如果是剛剛淑芬委員提到的是到了審議會性質那表示說是有案子要審的我基本上覺得屬性不一樣那定位不一樣你要邀請的代表當然就不一樣如果是屬於政策諮詢性質那當然廣泛性很高所以在我的版本裡面我有提到"},{"start":20930.349,"end":20934.271,"text":"包括有很多的這個相關的代表包括兒童團體家長團體婦女團體老公團體跟這個事情有關的團體就儘可能的邀請讓大家有公共參與的空間這個是我當時在看這個條文的時候"},{"start":20947.899,"end":20965.191,"text":"在思考的問題所以那個定位坦白講很重要就是是擺在哪裡那如果是這樣的一個專法過去在立法例裡面都會有屬於這樣的一個廣泛的邀請大家一起開會然後徵詢大家意見這樣的一個委員會那是不是因為諮詢會這幾個字比較會被誤解對"},{"start":20972.649,"end":20990.93,"text":"對 那所以剛剛淑芬委員提到的那個 你要的是審議會你的也是諮詢會啊好好好對 我覺得就是先定義清楚啦然後那個成員就會不一樣啦對啊好 謝謝 再請吳立華委員滿座再請林淑芬委員"},{"start":20993.136,"end":21021.931,"text":"好 謝謝主席那關於第7條我自己的版本就是有關托育服務我是寫諮詢會啦那因為基本上我也是本來認為說他是為了做整合規劃協調但是我很在意的也覺得一定要具體寫上去的就是關於諮詢的議題如果涉及到原住民相關的事項"},{"start":21022.811,"end":21038.023,"text":"一定要有原住民兒童權益倡議經驗的或從事原住民兒童托育服務的團體代表一定要參與那要不然很多的時候我們沒有辦法去如實反應"},{"start":21038.843,"end":21047.335,"text":"地方的做法 聲音還有它的特殊性我舉個例子像那時候蔡英文總統的政策0到6歲國家養就辣掉了所謂的部落互助教保中心他們因為完全沒有定位"},{"start":21056.947,"end":21071.573,"text":"所以沒有被接住所以我覺得其實台灣是一個我們既然已經在成員上面就是要求要多元的代表跨部會的一個參與諮詢所以這個部分就是希望一定要只是剛才我們部裡面的回應也有去讓大家就是要去想一件事情"},{"start":21080.017,"end":21093.618,"text":"因為我們有性別主流化所以會關注性別的比例部分但是因為我們還沒有族群主流化所以我們也沒有辦法去規定說一定要有什麼樣的族群的成員組成"},{"start":21095.541,"end":21114.438,"text":"但是他是用臨時有議題才邀請呢還是說在我們的成員當中就已經要有身心障礙代表還是原住民議題的這些專家學者代表那這個部分我還是想要聽一下就是部裡面對於這樣的一個規劃謝謝"},{"start":21119.158,"end":21145.73,"text":"好 那個林委員要不要一併補充好 那現在我要跟各位委員解釋說為什麼我們是省議會我們的制度跟整個衛福部的草案非常的不一樣是在於說我們認為現在的居家托育裡面費用都是由地方政府自己制定那今天那個陳培宇委員來他說馬祖地區你知道托育一個幼兒"},{"start":21147.991,"end":21171.811,"text":"一個月好像一萬一而已一萬一台北市是一萬八那其實我那天我們接到雲林的從業工剛回的理事長他有反應我聽他在講是說他們覺得他們的所獲得的報酬不對等那除了沒有尊嚴沒有被尊重以外其實會讓更多的從業人員不想再這樣子做"},{"start":21176.555,"end":21182.86,"text":"顧一個六萬二顧兩個兩萬四那實在說有段時間人家不愛做年輕人都不愛做寧願不做所以在這種狀況裡面我們在想要怎麼樣讓地方政府其實要定在合理的收費的範疇要地方政府定期去檢討其實地方政府都不容易像我們其實就不容易管得到"},{"start":21200.094,"end":21204.097,"text":"那所以我們想那中央其實應該政策面上還有這個應該要扛起這個責任但是我們知道各地方的各地方的可支配所的物價水準各區域都有不一樣所以中央也很難訂出我們本來想中央克則中央來訂收費標準但我們知道說中央也很難訂出一個也符合北部了可能就不符合金門馬祖的或是雲林的"},{"start":21227.595,"end":21248.115,"text":"所以那我們想是不是可以依據可支配所的物價水準中央我們提一個修正就是說你應該是可以訂出收費的地板和天花板上下限標準給地方政府去調整讓地方政府"},{"start":21248.755,"end":21268.328,"text":"最後決策要收多少還是地方政府決定但是中央訂一個這個標準然後給這個上下限的標準是上下限的標準那地板可能是給你知道顧一個小孩從業人員有保障勞動權益有保障其實對小孩也是一種保障然後但是你要顧及家長的可負擔性所以也要訂出一個上限你不要說訂了"},{"start":21280.535,"end":21291.198,"text":"這個上限沒有上限的話他可能也是私託啦或什麼也是很困擾所以是不是在居家托育裡面訂出上下限的收費標準然後我不強迫你中央訂出來標準給地方這個收費至少給地方審核收費的時候做參考"},{"start":21301.36,"end":21318.168,"text":"做參考 OK我不強迫你這個參考性是強度高到地方政府都必須依照這個但是你要訂出一個給他們參考那其實不是有法律就可以的為什麼後來覺得說不用中央去訂廢率的原因是土法不足以自行啊"},{"start":21321.997,"end":21326.159,"text":"你訂出來沒辦法執行 政府也會犯大從業人員也會犯大 北部也會犯大那我們訂這個標準要幹什麼就是說其實我們要問責的手段很多地方政府對中央訂的上下限的標準他要聽嗎 他要遵守嗎 他要參考嗎"},{"start":21342.746,"end":21351.775,"text":"這個不是只有這個法律的法律責任要頂個四年不是手段很多還包括他們地方政府議員可以問責還包括社會可以集體問責的政治責任所以"},{"start":21358.301,"end":21373.421,"text":"這個費用要收多少家長不反彈費用要收多少從業人員有保障對小孩也有保障還是交給地方政府但是我們中央一定要定義北區中區南區北中南東或是離島"},{"start":21374.582,"end":21386.099,"text":"至少五種的收費的依據可支配所得物價水準去訂出上下線來給地方政府參考我強度沒有要求你幫他們訂費率但是你訂一個參考的標準"},{"start":21389.964,"end":21393.147,"text":"所以我才想說我們是不是應該要一個審議會再來就是說收費退費的項目我們也應該訂一個中央級的行政指導給地方政府不然什麼時候可以收費許可收費什麼時候不允許退費或許可退費那個應該要全國一致性啦收費退費的項目和這個基準"},{"start":21417.069,"end":21438.986,"text":"這個應該可以中央訂了出來所以基於如此我們會有審議的機制然後有召開審議會這樣的一個設計的功能那否則如果照中央政府所寫的整合規劃協調然後召開諮詢會還有一個叫諮詢托育服務我不曉得中央版本的諮詢托育服務講的是什麼"},{"start":21440.547,"end":21456.384,"text":"變成那個諮詢會是被人家諮詢托育服務的是什麼東西所以架構上是原則上是這樣子啦那所以這條規範的是中央主管機關要做什麼後面我們才放這個地方主管機關要做什麼這樣子好 謝謝林委員 接下來請陳議員"},{"start":21463.762,"end":21479.579,"text":"我呼籲一下剛才吳麗華委員有特別提到就是說除了性別主流化當然還有這個我們也關心族群主流化還沒有落實的很好的這個問題因為在我們遇到的一些"},{"start":21480.86,"end":21498.815,"text":"過去的案例當中有一些文化跟語言上的呈現跟表達的時候確實會有需要我們原住民的代表在裡面可能會比較理想但因為我"},{"start":21500.777,"end":21523.112,"text":"我是认为就是说也了解就是说在整个可能案件的比例上或区域上我们人口分布的问题那是不是就是说有特殊状况的时候我们要特别再请我们原住民的代表进来我想这样的状况我是可以接受的"},{"start":21524.033,"end":21544.249,"text":"那再来就是在我们第7条的这个有关于咨询会召开的目的由各级主管机关就为了这个整合规划协调跟咨询托育服务那到底这个要来召开的这个要件是怎么样然后我们要多久开一次"},{"start":21546.472,"end":21555.429,"text":"會議結果是不是需要公開那當然我們這個草案裡面沒有很明確規定或許你們要放在細則裡面但是我覺得起碼"},{"start":21556.957,"end":21578.01,"text":"我們是不是可以考慮就是說這個諮詢會召開的時間頻率至少多久一次這件事情我們是不是要把它放進去好避免說未來在各級就是各主管機關這個托育服務如果有自在難行的時候大家不曉得要怎麼處理或者有什麼樣很"},{"start":21580.612,"end":21592.835,"text":"不管是刻意或怎么样的状态结果就拖延了这也是有可能所以这个部分我想这样的建议大家可以讨论一下"},{"start":21594.192,"end":21617.23,"text":"好最後再請林業勤委員來做表示意見完之後就請行政機關做綜合答案如果這樣的話我建議是不是因為我的當然也是寫那個諮詢可是本來現在目前各地方中央沒有設可是地方有設的事實上是推制度管理委員會的確他的強度會比較強就會比較是像"},{"start":21619.252,"end":21636.127,"text":"署分委員提的在第7條事上是有審議的確現在地方也有一些審議的功能我的沒有我的寫諮詢可是內容上比較會像現在的目前地方政府的有審議的功能在所以就會建議就是說"},{"start":21637.148,"end":21663.057,"text":"不知道淑芬委員的想法七八條合併然後中央跟地方政府都是用審議的一個角度上來看因為尤其是托嬰中心他變化比較大甚至互助式的有時候會在地方的時候中央有一個大方向可是地方還是會去審議他的比較一地方的一些權責獲得事實上是整個他們的"},{"start":21664.892,"end":21688.713,"text":"当地的那个收入的状态来去做一些规划所以我认为事实上是可不可以去做这样的一个考量所以我想问一下我们的卫福部这边还有一个就是说因为处分委员写的会比较多的代表这也是不是等下也要去讨论的为什么因为中央的只有写居福"},{"start":21689.553,"end":21710.704,"text":"居家托育服务团体和托育机构团体可是所用尾文的事项是有居家托育服务团体以外还有居家托育服务人员和托育机构团体的代表所以就会所以它增加了一列就是居家托育人员的代表那"},{"start":21711.304,"end":21734.216,"text":"還有不過前面的話還有托育人員的團體等於是中央它有四類地方都有三類可是如果從我們的行政院的話它大概只有兩類就是只有機構不管是居家托育服務團體還有一個托育機構團體人員的沒有列入那看等一下是不是應該要不要去做考量以上"},{"start":21735.1,"end":21752.766,"text":"尤其我會不會在現在的話因為剛剛孫委員是把第七條再拆分為七跟八因為第七條原來行政院版是說各級主管機關那為了要讓他更明確一點所以孫委員才會在第七條用中央主管機關"},{"start":21753.746,"end":21780.192,"text":"第八條在新增是對象就是直轄市的地方主管機關那裡面的確一開始的時候孫委員是認為中央主管機關需要用審議的這個方式會比較能夠來針對於他要執行的這些項是做更好的規範那在於這個地方主管機關他是用質疑的方式希望能夠就能符合需求"},{"start":21780.752,"end":21802.612,"text":"不過剛剛右協委也希望說是不是質疑跟審議如果地方主管機關也有審議的功能的話也比較能夠強化在地方主管機關未來碰到問題的一些執行方式所以看就是能不能七八條如果把剛剛所討論的內容有沒有機會再重新整合成為一條就可以那如果真的不行的話看有什麼對應方式以上"},{"start":21806.085,"end":21829.885,"text":"我覺得七八條整合成一條寫在一起我覺得是可以的但不是很困難可能條文內容比較多項一點但是首先我們必須要討論就是說要不要克責中央審議會他要有責任要去訂出依台灣分區因為分區各區的生活物價水準不一樣可支配所得不一樣"},{"start":21830.706,"end":21846.984,"text":"那他們應該要訂出一個收費的退費的這個項目和標準然後訂出上下限但是這個上下限並不是強迫地方政府都應該強度高到全部都要聽我的 不是"},{"start":21848.085,"end":21875.422,"text":"我們本來是希望這樣中央扛責啦 全部都聽中央 中央就訂起來但我覺得現在的務實面去討論 至少你訂出一個上下線給地方去參考 請地方要參考 因為這個在有線電視的收費裡面 中央其實有訂出了這個收費的上限 你地方決定你有線電視一個月要收多少錢 但是不可以超出我的"},{"start":21875.862,"end":21894.272,"text":"定的天花板像這個中央就有這樣那像還有什麼交通規費的好像也有訂出上下線然後給地方這個監理單位要去執行的時候要去處理的這樣子類似"},{"start":21897.474,"end":21920.016,"text":"那這個東西我們要先討論要不要我個人是覺得這樣子好的原因是因為地方政府真的沒有壓力地方議會對地方政府的感到的強度對不上我們立法院啦再來就是說他們同學都不要檢討地方政府都不要檢討因為多做多錯少做少錯所以我們就看到你像媽祖帶一個小孩一個月一萬一"},{"start":21921.567,"end":21925.53,"text":"沒人要做啊 沒人要做之後呢人家就說大姐 沒人要帶孩子 我也不要住在這裡我不要住在這裡 這個村子整個都沒年輕人那個村子就繼續沒落 可能連學校都要廢掉了因為沒孩子嘛 就廢校嘛 廢校以後"},{"start":21938.682,"end":21959.083,"text":"連村裡可能都人口一直持續流失這個陷入一個惡性的循環大家都知道從日本到台灣現在台灣你不要講偏鄉啊你看很多地區新北的山上遠一點的搞不好你廢校以後這個村大概就要一直廢掉都沒有人搬出去流失了"},{"start":21959.924,"end":21979.155,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面我們訂一個合理的保障從業人員的然後也保障從業人員以後進而就保障了托育的品質但是也訂一個對家長而言你沒有訂一個上限但是家長負擔不起或是變相的收費名目一大堆這樣"},{"start":21985.838,"end":22003.714,"text":"啊 家長無法負擔這個 大家就 也不行的啊所以訂一個參考標準給地方政府參考或是再強制地方政府每兩年就要檢討一次每兩年就要跟著物價水準調整一次類似這樣子啦是不是 大家這樣"},{"start":22004.935,"end":22031.877,"text":"大家一起幫助從業人員那我們不管諮詢會審議會裡面我們裡面增加的就是說居家托育人員團體代表就講居家托育人員自己組成的社團那居家托育服務團體代表就是指居托中心的承辦團體代表這大家可以討論一下一個就居托中心的代表一個就是從業人員的社團"},{"start":22034.699,"end":22062.09,"text":"那看 看怎麼樣啦 大家可以可以討論一下啦 但是就拜託大家我們克責於中央 也是不能夠計劃 要怎麼收集什麼可以收費 什麼可以退費都記在每個地方各自為政然後整個全國標準都不一致這樣子不太好 所以我們是不是中央要扛起這個責任 定期標準給地方政府 收費標準是參考的 但是"},{"start":22062.93,"end":22071.226,"text":"消費退費項目是應該要強制規定的這個應該在右照裡面有吧"},{"start":22073.68,"end":22093.454,"text":"好 可以了 我們要來處理了我們現在處理是這樣 因為大家討論這麼久我們現在是林淑穩的第七條跟院版的第七條也是林淑穩的第八條然後他還有另外兩個修正動議也是在第七跟第八是不是請一併再做一個答覆 好 謝謝"},{"start":22094.881,"end":22110.231,"text":"主席 一起在座各位委員 大家好我那三點簡單來回覆第一點 我暫時就是剛才講的七八條整個把它整併這第一點 第二點這第一點 第二點 我收穫很多我如果各位報告這個設計"},{"start":22112.836,"end":22120.186,"text":"那個所謂審議會就類似德國保險基金會的這一個保費審議機制啦德國的處理縫隙就像是聯邦眾院訂出剛剛像蘇芬委員所說的上下限"},{"start":22127.756,"end":22138.421,"text":"上上線之後各個保險基金會自己再去訂個別的費率我口比共啦 德國的費率現在是這樣大概譬如說費率的14%到16%中間但是14%到16%你要怎麼訂你們保險基金會自己去決定但是這裡面會影響到就是說你當你訂的高的話那你的給付範圍就要高"},{"start":22148.207,"end":22152.511,"text":"聯邦這邊也會去訂出您剛剛所說的那個整個收費項目這個是確實中央要來管所以這點如果是這樣的話那我們就朝審議會的方向來規劃這一點我也覺得競表同意我覺得可以朝這個方向因為"},{"start":22166.581,"end":22168.162,"text":"上下線的部分我們回去做分區"},{"start":22195.34,"end":22208.133,"text":"這樣就審議會了同時也刻意地方政府你們自己本身你們要那個整個你要扛起責任但是這裡面就牽涉到就是說這裡面所要產生的代表代表人代表性這裡面可能又是另外一個但是我們會來參考剛才委員所說的我們來進行這樣好不好"},{"start":22212.817,"end":22233.001,"text":"對啦就是那個收費退費的這個項目應該要是強制性的這個存果統一一致性的啦但是這個費用收費我們就訂參考值讓你們參考這樣子但是我們可能要講克哲瑜他們也是要跟著物價水準兩年調整一次要實時檢討我們後面還有一個條文就是克哲瑜中央要兩年調整那跟著地方也要跟著兩年調整一次參考物價水準變化"},{"start":22243.382,"end":22262.213,"text":"因為如果用這個設計,這個理論上會有一個效果就是說整個薪資一方面可以提高,品質也可以提高這個裡面某種程度可以形成一個良性循環但是也要考慮到各個地方本身的個別差異所以我們讓他參考"},{"start":22266.236,"end":22287.175,"text":"訂出五區,東西南北中,然後再加上離島六區,分區定標準如果大院是這樣一個方向,那我們就回去,我們就朝這個方向來擬密這個是從業人員,特別是居托人員在這裡特別希望拜託每一個立委及企業"},{"start":22288.669,"end":22306.556,"text":"因為他們 其實我們在新北台北都會地區五感 六都可能也五感可是真的是非都會地區的這些從業人員真的地方政府的拚勁喔有時候是要放得很遠的對啊 這講這種很正常如果是這樣說 已經林委員所說的就不是叫做北中蘭了啦"},{"start":22308.632,"end":22333.37,"text":"就不叫北中南了你要定的這樣的一個目標跟方向事實上你要考量就好像要針對中低收入戶跟低收入戶的那個依照一般縣市六都有六都的計算方式每一都的計算方式都不一樣然後一般縣市是一塊六都是各一塊然後里島是一塊因為你如果單純分北中南可能沒有辦法達到你想要的"},{"start":22334.249,"end":22349.003,"text":"那個目標所以那個依據可能你們要思考清楚方向上是大家同意的話那這個細節上讓他們去整合讓他們去寫寫看七八條也讓他們寫寫看整合在一起看看方向就這樣"},{"start":22351.605,"end":22376.296,"text":"另外那個像陳英委員典典有關心到那個在我們的這個審議會不管中央或地方也還有吳立華委員裡面有關心這裡面可能也要把我們原住民的代表可能也要裡面一定比例也把它放進去這樣好不好我想我們就朝這個朝這個方向來抱歉我再補充一句我忘了我們審議會裡面還有一個功能就是要開發居家托育人力資源就是可能"},{"start":22380.686,"end":22391.137,"text":"省議會啦 要增加這個功能就對了我想這個也朝向我們那個居托 這確實他品質也要有一個改善機構就由這個Delegative body他來你們回去寫寫看 你要放進來這樣子好 OK"},{"start":22396.804,"end":22408.558,"text":"所以我們就林委員的第七條跟院版還有所有委員的第七條跟林委員的第八條還有兩個修正動議就請協議機關在會診提供最好的條文草案再給我們所有的委員來做參考之後"},{"start":22415.1,"end":22429.164,"text":"我們再來處理所以現在我們就針對這個部分我們就先做保留那接下來處理的是陳培穎委員的第八條跟林淑芬委員的第九條來請行政機關做說明請務務部做說明"},{"start":22438.927,"end":22453.719,"text":"行政院版的第八條那主要是針對在托育服務的內容的一些不是喔你誤會了 對不起是有關陳培育委員和陳培育委員的第八條和林淑芬委員的第九條的部分"},{"start":22454.219,"end":22476.79,"text":"有關在托育服務實施的過程中對於兒童的怎麼樣去滿足一些相關的一些要達成的一些目標那這個部分行政版是沒有目前是沒有相關的條文那這個部分的話我們是建議這個因為他是一個比較一個一個原則性一個通案性的一個目標性的條文那"},{"start":22477.61,"end":22501.118,"text":"現在因為原來在第一條有一個立法的宗旨和目的那是不是需要在這邊再額外再增加一個條文我們是覺得這個部分可以看委員討論的結果那如果這個確實是覺得還是需要做細節的部分還是需要做相關的意見的話我們會尊重委員討論的決定 以上來 請提案委員 李委員"},{"start":22502.43,"end":22522.596,"text":"是這樣子第一條我們講的是整部法律的開宗明義的這個立法的宗旨那這一條看起來好像跟第一條的方向好像很像其實不一樣這一條講的是說我們要設定國家在托育服務上的國家政策目標要朝向哪個方向前進"},{"start":22523.456,"end":22542.521,"text":"不是立法的宗旨這裡講的是設定國家的目標政策那在這種狀況裡面也是參照這個右照法的第11條裡面有寫這樣的東西進去就是我們希望右照法有這個法律設定了國家的政策目標那我們"},{"start":22545.022,"end":22565.855,"text":"兒童托育服務法也應該要而且我們希望一個更先進的立法就是說要比照像美國的居家托育品質指標一樣那我們把0到2歲更先進的國家政策寫上來那當然是宣示性但是也是希望政策要符合這些方向這樣子啦"},{"start":22569.454,"end":22589.12,"text":"這個我提供給委員會做參考我們第一條我們第一條是有在修正通過是不是修正的條文陳委員也到了兩個條文再看一下第一條的修正條文如果有符合你們的第八條第九條那就請你們再做思考第一條有一個修正完的版本"},{"start":22591.176,"end":22600.903,"text":"請給兩位演奏參考一下但是第一條跟我們的第第九條其實是不一樣的我是說修正好的喔 修正好的修正好的也沒有啊你看一下"},{"start":22602.987,"end":22625.374,"text":"也沒有啦,因為我們在說政策目標,你又是立法宗旨政策目標,要滿足兒童的生理需求的照顧建構兒童合宜又安全的成長環境然後兒童和照顧者的正向依附關係營造兒童平等民主尊重差異的學習環境然後要豐富兒童遊戲探索和體驗等等等等"},{"start":22626.534,"end":22643.584,"text":"就是你其實在做托育服務的實施裡面我們希望設定這種國家目標而且這個目標是跟家庭功能跟家庭社區是密切的配合的然後是適合0到2歲404性發展的學習綱領的"},{"start":22649.577,"end":22669.263,"text":"所以是基本上跟宗旨不太一樣它比較像是政策發展上要怎麼朝向什麼目標設定出國家目標來這樣子主委你要不要表示意見好"},{"start":22672.093,"end":22699.486,"text":"剛剛林委員有特別說到這個說是404性的保育照顧確保兒童托育服務的品質其實這也是個目標啦我們追求的目標就是品質嘛來 現在請王委員在做說明之前我把我自己個人的想法這個看起來是很豐富的一種理想狀態就是我們期待在這個"},{"start":22700.686,"end":22716.517,"text":"這部法案裡面把這些目標能夠讓引導相關的機構來做這方面的處理不過現實上我比較擔心的是說如果我們把這個想法放進來那未來如何去要求"},{"start":22717.398,"end":22746.659,"text":"如果真的想要要求的時候那當然那個成本就會拉得非常高所以我不是反對我只是說如果我們用這個第八條來有這樣的這麼豐富的這種期待的話那萬一萬一在執行上有落差那我們將來怎麼去做相關的討論跟改善或者是檢討這是我個人對這一條的一個增加目前的一些想法歐委員不是反對啦但是只是晃進去怪怪的"},{"start":22747.633,"end":22748.678,"text":"那接下來請李月琴委員"},{"start":22752.32,"end":22780.627,"text":"現在兩位委員的第八條跟我覺得院版的第八條會不會有一個競合關係在因為為什麼如果前面目標達成的話那底下的原來的院版的第八條裡面說托育服務應該尊重然後提供這些照顧那就回來說這些東西能不能滿足上面的目標像以一個最簡單的豐富兒童遊戲探索跟體驗居家保母可能"},{"start":22781.227,"end":22798.3,"text":"沒有 這個豐富又是什麼會不會沒辦法達到除非今天第八條文寫的事實上是說是整體性台灣的所有的包含是家庭可是目標又是寫托育服務的實施要跟家庭這個配合所以我就不知道說"},{"start":22799.181,"end":22823.127,"text":"我擔心的會是說保姆或甚至推中心還稍微容易一點因為場地大可是保姆的話沒有辦法的時候會不會又讓更多保姆去退卻因為底下第八條本來就寫了這些他要做的工作內容就這些工作內容要回到這個目標那這兩個真的要去思考說怎麼去處理否則的話會不會沒有辦法做到"},{"start":22826.795,"end":22829.116,"text":"林委員完之後再換陳委員陳委員完之後再換陳陳委員"},{"start":22856.276,"end":22856.879,"text":"不一定啊"},{"start":22858.366,"end":22886.329,"text":"我去評鑑的話這些政策目標國家發展的方向全部都要一一全部都滿足並不是但我們希望國家在制定最上位的托育服務我們國家到底這個托育服務最理想境界要達到什麼目的那0到20歲最適性適齡的發展他的身體動作社會情緒語言溝通認知探索或是生活治理等的他的發展項目的需求到底是應該要朝向哪個方向去"},{"start":22886.869,"end":22900.86,"text":"去發展那國家在制定這個政策和目標的時候其實就盡量要達成我們以下的這些目標然後讓機構和這個從業人員去遵循但是他不會直接等於是評鑑項目啦不會啦好 接下來請陳經理委員之後再陳培議委員"},{"start":22907.68,"end":22934.998,"text":"這條看起來是很理想性那根據右邊其他國家所制定出來的我是覺得很很理想性宣示性不過我是剛看到衛福部有改了第一條看是不是把比較宣示性的再合併進第一條然後其他的沒辦法然後其他的其實跟你們院版的第八條是蠻類似的有可能可以把它整合進去嗎"},{"start":22938.319,"end":22951.678,"text":"好那我想不管是要整合還是要怎麼調整我沒有一定要堅持第八條要這樣放那不過比較是參考台灣現在有零到二是零事情發展學習綱領我們當時在"},{"start":22953.039,"end":22953.32,"text":"好 再請林書文"},{"start":22974.845,"end":22987.341,"text":"很抱歉我們的同仁其實我個人不同意這個不同意的原因是第一條我在講是立法的宗旨而這一條講的不是立法的宗旨而已這是所有"},{"start":22990.164,"end":23016.538,"text":"這個國際兒童權利公約的精神這個都是所有全部不管居家或機構或是這個國家要發展托育服務的時候該有的價值這個是這個價值要成為國家在訂定政策的時候要引導國家政策的方向所以在這種狀況裡面它是所有托育服務的最上位的價值這個價值要被標示出來"},{"start":23017.839,"end":23041.494,"text":"它不是立法的宗旨它是國家政策發展的目標和最上位的托育服務的價值要符合這一些東西這樣子所以我是懇請大家所以說我們是不是應該要要給予國家在政策目標發展上的時候要讓他們有方向而我們直接再脫離法程序的時候"},{"start":23041.934,"end":23066.058,"text":"就標示把國家標示的這些方向是不可或缺但唯一我覺得我可能還有一個缺失不足的地方就是可能還有我們沒有想到的可能啦或許還有我們沒有想到的第十款應該或許還有應該要怕掛萬肉依啦當然還有應該要有其他的沒有想到的價值也應該要放進來這樣子好這次要請林業勤委員好"},{"start":23071.584,"end":23097.467,"text":"我的修正動議裡邊大概有在第八條前面我想問一下衛福部我原本是有寫推服務應以兒童為主體因為這個的主體事實上是孩子然後秉持性別族群文化平等並重那加了這些字我不知道衛福部這邊剛才在說明的時候可不可以針對我這個做回應"},{"start":23101.394,"end":23125.397,"text":"第八條林委員你是講你的修正動議我講我的修正動議修正動議在哪裡你的修正動議沒有第八條原版"},{"start":23133.477,"end":23142.793,"text":"所以沒有啦原版的第八條你現在把原版第八條來跟現在的陳委員跟林委員的第八、第九一併討論還是怎樣?"},{"start":23145.44,"end":23168.439,"text":"因為我還是回來原來第八條因為剛剛因為淑芬委員跟裴育委員他們原來要堅持要八條那我現在講的是說原本的第八條我的版本原來是有加應該以兒童為主體然後秉持性別族群文化文化平等的並重的原則所以這樣再自言剛剛衛福部沒有特別去做一併討論可以啊"},{"start":23170.2,"end":23184.154,"text":"沒有,現在就還沒有討論到驗版的跟你的第八條啦現在只有單純在討論陳培宇委員的第八條跟林淑穩的第九條是這樣所以我們還沒有見到驗版的還有柯委員的第八條"},{"start":23185.403,"end":23208.605,"text":"主席那我可以請教一下因為剛剛衛福部在我們要討論這個所謂我的版本第八條的時候突然丟了一張紙給我是說我們把相關精神放在這個第一條是嗎不是這第一條就是我們已經通過給各位參考只是給我們參考好謝謝好我現在就請衛福部再來做一個回應好不好看怎麼整合來處理感謝主席一直在說各位我們收穫很多"},{"start":23210.499,"end":23236.077,"text":"我建議啦 我建議是不是說 委員如果告訴說有這個建築 我覺得也很好啦 這有一個力量嘛所以我們 那個 就是陳佩玉委員的這個第八條跟林淑貞委員第九條我覺得這個都可以保留 這沒有問題 我們不堅持另外那個林淑貞委員如果說他覺得要以兒童為主體 那個部分如果也需要的話其實事實上也可以在這裡面那個等一下會討論到 等一下會討論"},{"start":23238.278,"end":23266.076,"text":"所以好 所以如果說我也不認同陳培穎的第八條跟林淑媛的第九條那好 那條次就你們去調整喔就確定要整理這一條囉是不是這樣好 OK 好我可不可以請問一下這個理想真的非常好但是因為剛剛有提到說平靜不一定會看這個但是那平靜不看這個可是大部分平靜會看這個因為你是當目標嘛那至少也會問說你離目標有多遠啊"},{"start":23267.816,"end":23290.645,"text":"應該還是會落入因為我用醫院評鑑的概念用很多機構評鑑的概念這個很重要這個東西真的非常完美那評鑑的時候會不會那可不可行就是我就簡單回復一下就是說這個部分我們現在目前根據這個理念我們會在評鑑上的一些相關的一些指標上面達成的那個指標上面去做設計"},{"start":23293.023,"end":23315.031,"text":"就是那個屬於那個instrument 那個整個憑量 憑量指標但是這個可以有一個根據但是我先更正一下客觀的指標這個陳委員我先更正一下我說不連結這個的意思是說不直接啦譬如說居家托育服務裡面你叫他要有這個遊戲器材 要有團體探索"},{"start":23316.511,"end":23338.414,"text":"阿姨就沒有整群小朋友在那裡探索阿姨也沒有在引導那個空間設計遊戲探索的工具沒有可能沒有辦法那麼多當然有居家服務室的啦但是就沒有辦法跟機構室一樣但是我們不會直接連結是說衛福部到時候評鑑要自己去另外設計一套但是那精神也是要符合這一邊的"},{"start":23339.775,"end":23364.884,"text":"那不是直接就直接說這幾款每一款去檢驗不是直接拿這幾款來做評鑑啦但是精神上是要朝這個方向那評鑑的內容就交給衛福部去質疑而且因為剛剛次長說是用這個為一個目標但是你設出來的東西有蠻客觀蠻可行的因為事實上不然到時候都不及格這樣子好來請李主委"},{"start":23366.565,"end":23393.215,"text":"我覺得院版的第八條跟兩位委員提出來的第八條我覺得還是要去把它分清楚來否則的話會變成院版第八條沒有它也是寫托育服務應該以...底下的內容那這邊是目標那一樣就是說那這些底下第八院版第八條的內容到底會不會能夠回應這些目標還是像淑媛委員剛剛提的就是說我的原來的"},{"start":23394.535,"end":23416.169,"text":"提出來第八條事實上是整個整體的政策不是服務是整體的托育政策應該去滿足這個還是說托育服務因為都是托育服務這四個字一個是托育服務應該要尊重孩子發展然後可是內容是這些然後上邊又是目標那這些內容到底要不要去達成這些目標"},{"start":23417.406,"end":23434.239,"text":"所以就會有我會自己一直喘在這邊所以我想說那衛福部到底如果假設現在的兩邊的八條都要放的時候在解讀法條的時候到底怎麼去理解這兩個我知道我知道我試著這樣處理各位委員聽剛剛陳委員的第八條跟"},{"start":23436.994,"end":23456.312,"text":"零選委員的第九 基本上衛福部是同意啦 競表同意啦但是還是要保留 因為這個條次要挑戰第幾條都等一下 我們整個亂文之後再來做處理啦好 第二件事情是我們等一下進度到是原本的第八條嘛還有其他委員的年月選是第八條"},{"start":23457.393,"end":23473.145,"text":"黃景源是多少條 蔡議員第八條李昆整第八條我這樣宣讀大家比較清楚然後王一園第八條邱若元第八條郭益全元第八條鄭天才元第八條王媒慧元第八條然後這個"},{"start":23474.566,"end":23499.88,"text":"吳培宇委員第八條,王振旭委員第八條,范委員第八條,然後李彥秀第八條,羅廷偉第八條,然後其他的第九條是在何新竹委員,然後還有陳培文也是第九條,陳淑媛第九條,然後游浩文第九條,那林淑媛也是第十條,我們現在就要討論這一條,那討論這一條的時候,各位再思考一下林委員剛才提醒的這個內容跟"},{"start":23502.932,"end":23515.341,"text":"第八條陳北宇委員還有林書偉所提的第九條怎樣有沒有阻隔的問題有沒有什麼樣的問題再請刑事機關再做一個回應好不好好好現在我們就要處理這一條了好來請務務部來做說明"},{"start":23522.983,"end":23544.687,"text":"行政版的第八條和其他各委員的版本之間現在大概比較在文字上有比較不一樣的地方第一點是有關吳佩儀委員的版本他有提案要甄列要辨識兒童是否有受虐待不當對待的跡象而且要協助通報目前這個規定的話這樣的一個行為義務"},{"start":23548.348,"end":23575.678,"text":"那在行政院版是把它擺在第48條裡面所以我們會建議這個部分的話也許可以在這個相關的條文來做處理那另外那這個條文也有提到的是要強化托育人員相關的職能那這個部分的話我們也會來做一些相關的處理那其他各位委員的版本總體上來說文字和行政院的版本大體上都還算相當以上報告"},{"start":23578.201,"end":23578.722,"text":"好 請陳昭次委員"},{"start":23581.501,"end":23609.494,"text":"謝謝 因為一開中名義這一條就是說以尊重兒童發展為前提那我想請教一個因為我們從凱凱案得到了很多的課那我想問這幾宗幾個環節符不符合在所謂的尊重兒童發展為前提譬如說凱凱案裡面的重要一個環節就是本來祖母聘請的周姓保姆照顧那當然這個中間會來法院的判決書有記載我不追溯那凱凱的祖母本來是希望由周姓保姆"},{"start":23610.274,"end":23638.013,"text":"來照顧那也希望兒扶能夠補助保母費但是因為資格不符資格不符然後遭拒然後後來就轉介到另外一個保母就發生這樣的悲劇所以也有人認為說如果當初留在那個狀況下就不會發生所以我想問的說這個法條寫托育服應該以尊重兒童發展為前這個都OK的但是這個實際照顧者的變化就是我想知道你的態度那這樣是有尊重兒童發展嗎還是說你要單獨去滿足那個補助資格"},{"start":23640.314,"end":23668.012,"text":"所以就會去遷就這樣 後來造成悲劇 這也是事實啊那怎麼避免所以我覺得那個 這個是活血深深的那個例子喔裡面發生了幾個重點那次長您覺得符合這個兒童發展為前提嗎還是這些東西要做一些修正這樣 謝謝怎麼避免啊 怎麼再避免好 謝謝等一下 還有其他委員要表示意見嗎好 參議委員完之後再換您署委員"},{"start":23669.484,"end":23686.843,"text":"如果我們來看這個院本的第八條我們要談的是服務內容可是剛陳委員在談的我想我還是以尊重兒童發展為前提可是在談那個到底是不是轉介保姆的問題我感覺起來應該不是在這一條要處理吧我請衛福部一併回答謝謝來請林署委員"},{"start":23690.953,"end":23702.622,"text":"不好意思喔我有講這麼多不好意思因為我們的版本其實都希望中央責任要扛多一點比較我們的第十條跟原本第八條的不一樣就是很簡單他講服務內容有五款我們跟他一樣"},{"start":23707.486,"end":23730.672,"text":"但中央說前面的一二款這一些相關的實施準則我來訂其他他就不訂了但我們跟他不一樣是全部你中央其實應該把這一些實施的準則全部都訂出來這樣子所以我就不知道說為什麼中央主管機關會認為說其他的他不需要訂"},{"start":23735.17,"end":23736.805,"text":"其他委員要表示意見 王振興委員"},{"start":23740.143,"end":23768.316,"text":"是的確這是原本剛剛在討論的第八條如果要讓他有新的題字我們不知道這樣會怎麼定不過我們如果延伸到現在原版的第八條的話其實他兩者剛剛樂群委員已經講了非常有提醒我們說這兩個其實是有一些連結性就是我們剛剛所討論的那個還沒有定條式的兩個第八條或第九條基本上就是一個目標"},{"start":23769.477,"end":23795.705,"text":"那我們現在討論的這個院版的第八條是在講服務內容事實上它真的是可以連結我們為了要達到那個目標當然我們要有服務內容所以未來在這個現在的第八條就是院版的第八條在書寫的部分可能我們要把它連結進來才能夠知道說為什麼這兩個之間它的連結性還有它的服務內容到底要包括哪一些才能夠有機會去往那個目標前進"},{"start":23797.085,"end":23822.272,"text":"這個是非常重要的一部分我相信大家感受應該會很類似那我也跟那個署任委員所提到的那到底原版裡面提個五款那在訂細則的時候哪幾款需要放進來那如果依照我們現在的五款裡面一二款看起來是相對比較好訂可是第三四款"},{"start":23823.272,"end":23831.658,"text":"在制定上面如果碰到困難的話預期會有哪一些要面對的問題這可能等一下也麻煩主管機構在這邊說個說明以上"},{"start":23834.978,"end":23858.524,"text":"來 再請陳昭志委員主席 不過我還在表達 剛剛陳培偉就有點誤會說因為我裡面後來有提到補助你以為我是放在補助但是我那個前提還是以尊重兒童發展為前提因為這個孩子被轉來轉去所以這個東西就是說在你的服務內容裡面你是該以孩子的利益為最優先嘛因為他要適應那麼多家庭嘛那後來就真的就出事了所以這種精神其實"},{"start":23859.444,"end":23881.975,"text":"其實就是說有沒有你在這個第八條裡面有沒有去落實那個精神但是他為什麼會轉來轉去就是因為他不符合那個補助的資格所以他只好而且出不起錢他只好就轉到另外一個地方去然後就出事了所以重點不是說補助當然是一個後來要討論那個很容易討論我覺得補助是容易討論但這個精神是不容易所以我的意思說次長"},{"start":23883.336,"end":23891.386,"text":"這個你們這個服務內容裡面有沒有考慮到這個案子凱凱案子當中有沒有學到一個東西要放在這個裡面我的意思是這樣 謝謝好 林書文第二次發言"},{"start":23897.712,"end":23917.351,"text":"我覺得社交署可能覺得簽名一二款比較重要那其他的不重要那我們現在舉一個例子就是說像這個第四款提供育兒諮詢及家庭支持相關資訊那這個就是需要有一些規範和指引因為家庭和照顧如何銜接也是現在目前的這個照顧的重點那"},{"start":23917.751,"end":23945.427,"text":"那三四款裡面訂出這個國家的這個中央的指引然後讓人家去遵循我覺得這些東西其實也是很重要的那我們不知道說為什麼不願意讓他全國有他的一致性然後讓各地方政府或是其他服務的機構人員可以遵循我覺得這個中央訂出來有什麼困難的嗎或者是覺得他不重要嗎"},{"start":23946.978,"end":23961.427,"text":"這些原則準則我覺得是蠻重要的我也要呼應蘇編委員講尤其是第三轉介服務真的要有些準則沒有的話那真的很可怕就是說要中央訂出來我覺得這第八條跟剛才"},{"start":23967.43,"end":23990.027,"text":"兩位委員提的那個地方我覺得真的要去討論好否則就等一下要不要看保留如果今天要納入目標的話要真的能夠回應到那個服務內容那另外一個這一條是在講托育服務如果剛剛陳昭芝委員講的那個早上我也有提就是說本來你安置兒童的話本來就不應該在這邊討論應該在其他條裡面去要求說"},{"start":23993.65,"end":24007.869,"text":"怎麼可以把一個一般安置跟緊急安置跟收出養安置安置在這個強度沒有這麼強的要做保母管理的因為今天居家托育"},{"start":24009.977,"end":24025.85,"text":"第一年只四例房第二年過去只有一例房我居家托育工作人員一年去看保姆一次然後去24小時全日在那邊的孩子要一個強度這麼低的去做的話那當然一定會出問題"},{"start":24027.051,"end":24047.637,"text":"和一個小孩子每一天被帶回家 爸媽都會看他身上有沒有傷 和一個二十四小時一到禮拜天通通都不會回去的 我覺得本來就不應該是在這邊討論 應該是在其他法條裡面去被要求啊 所以早上我才會這麼強烈要求說應該在我們的其他條次裡面去強度要求 而不是在這邊去討論這件事情 以上謝謝"},{"start":24051.572,"end":24055.974,"text":"這個小孩子是住在後來這個保母家啊還是住在那裡啊 住了好幾個月啊"},{"start":24065.342,"end":24092.127,"text":"沒有這個每人的感受跟這個說法當然這邊講的是托育服務內容要進行的生活照顧啊衛生保健啊要做什麼什麼事情是按照他的發展需求去做什麼事情跟你剛剛講的是在坦白講是沒什麼關係感受不一樣了尊重每個委員對這件大家都關心嘛大家我們的就注重而且這個案子是引發我們把這個法案寫好的一個最大的動機嘛好"},{"start":24094.582,"end":24110.139,"text":"是不是請行政機關來做回應好 感謝各位非常寶貴的意見我相信大家都希望把它做好首先陳道志委員非常感謝您的提示我也是因為我們也檢討了凱凱案所以我們覺得裡面有一些環節"},{"start":24114.803,"end":24126.909,"text":"確實有一些我們必須要補足所以才在這個法裡面才把它希望能夠把它更加完善化特別是有關於那個出養必要性還有另外一方面就是說整個一些相關的SOP那"},{"start":24130.49,"end":24140.454,"text":"對 我們那邊也會在兒少法那邊會有相關處理所以這個完全同意委員剛剛所說的我們要朝這個方向來有一學習另外一個部分 我想就是剛剛那個蘇分委員剛才所說的我知道那個邏輯上就是說現在說的電子就是"},{"start":24147.757,"end":24168.247,"text":"提高到這陣仗剩下的力量嘛 現在再來就是說這個補分 我知道就是你要刻意中央這邊要standard setting整個一些標準 你要變出行政準則出來 全部都要訂啦這樣啦 這個補分 你要跟他訂一二款的 三四五都不用喔沒關係 這個補分我們是不是 我們也來強化好不好你來照我們的版本通過就可以了因為你的版本就是說 我跟他要訂一二款 其他我不愛做"},{"start":24176.093,"end":24197.808,"text":"不然就是我們在立一個托育服務法我們這個法是因為中央不想管這麼多所以我們就不克責他必須要訂出行政準則出來這也會不會太荒謬了吧今天社會高度的期待之下立出來的托育服務法是一個中央不想管那麼多的法律這不會很好笑嗎主席我可以一併再請問嗎跟著問"},{"start":24199.289,"end":24227.9,"text":"可以的市長我請問一下因為剛剛鄭旭委員有提一個很重要的問題也許你先回答就是三四五你們在定準則會遇到哪些困難而且剛剛淑芳委員說所謂全國一致性這件事情我稍微調整一下我認為不會有全國一致性有些事情它可以全國一致性可是有些問題它一旦考慮到離島跟偏鄉情況會非常非常不一樣尤其在少子化的現在所以可不可以就你們一併回答定準則可能會有哪些困難我們可以過來想一想"},{"start":24229.66,"end":24257.871,"text":"就是3、4、5的部分啦市長請說各位委員報告當初在第8條的時候為什麼會針對這個只針對主要是針對第一款和第二款的部分因為它的範圍涵蓋的比較大清潔、衛生、安全然後第二款包括營養、保健、生活、照顧、學習它基本上它在條文的文字是一個比較廣泛比較大的一個關照的範圍那裡面具體實施的內容"},{"start":24258.831,"end":24279.7,"text":"當初在立法研議的時候我們覺得可能在細項的部分需要去做一個比較清楚的描述所以在第二項的部分去訂了一個條文說它是不是要相關的實施原則然後以相關實項的準則由總管主管機關來做一個律定那當時為什麼在針對第三款第四款的部分在考慮的時候某個角度來講因為兒童的兒童生活一般的狀態"},{"start":24280.68,"end":24297.913,"text":"或者是這個育兒諮詢或家庭他就是一些詢問或者一些事項的提供的時候對於家長和托育者中間的互動的時候以往我們的我們所得當時在討論的時候覺得這個在家長和托育者中間的溝通是相對比較清楚的"},{"start":24298.413,"end":24324.767,"text":"那所以當初沒有刻意去把這個部分再額外再去納進去那主要單純主要只是這樣的一個考慮而已那所以如果說這個等一下在討論的過程中覺得他還是有很多的事項是需要納進準則的部分那我們還是可以我們還是可以到時候就就最後討論有需要納進去的部分我們再做相關的再做相關條文的整理以上說明好那林恩綺委員"},{"start":24327.249,"end":24341.42,"text":"剛剛講這樣聽起來有點倒楣當然也沒道理為什麼尤其是過去一直以來紀錄兒童生活跟成長這個很重要性尤其0到2歲變化非常的大可是一直以來都沒有拍幾張照片就是紀錄嗎也不是啊他的很多身高體重"},{"start":24342.461,"end":24358.377,"text":"生活的一些必須要我們要了解的東西甚至在0到2歲變化這麼大的狀態裡邊像頭尾要不要量這些東西都沒有一個準則依據的話就變成說保姆都覺得我拍兩張照片就給你然後你評鑑的時候說要人家去做保姆很常抗拒說我幹嘛要做"},{"start":24359.077,"end":24387.48,"text":"因為又沒有什麼罰則又沒有什麼要求現在既然是入法了以前是在辦法裡面那是不是你們要有些準則讓有依據否則我覺得最後還是苦了居托中心的工作人員每次跟保姆溝通的時候非常難溝通因為他們都不願意按照這樣子做那為什麼你就不乾脆訂一個準則讓人家來依循而不是讓現場承接這樣的一個管理保姆的工作的工作人員相對的事實上是非常辛苦的以上"},{"start":24388.514,"end":24402.621,"text":"主席好再請林書仁剛才聽了署長的講法我覺得他可能不覺得說這個不他並不覺得說這個不重要但他覺得這個可能是好像是執行細節上的問題所以他覺得"},{"start":24405.942,"end":24418.029,"text":"他沒有想到認為說需要訂到準則但是你們的立法上你第二項這樣子寫會有一個問題就是說除了第一款第二款以外的其他中央都不訂了"},{"start":24419.366,"end":24439.728,"text":"會有這種問題排他性那我們的講法我們的條文是說以上五款我沒有講五款喔就是說前項托育服務內容的實施準則這五款到底有哪些需要準則的由中央你來定所以我沒有排除也沒有強迫說每一款都一定要訂出什麼樣的準則"},{"start":24441.169,"end":24460.569,"text":"所以就是說你的寫法有排他性我們的寫法是沒有但是呢如果到底是需要或不需要的話其實可以考慮的就是說月井講的記錄兒童生活和成長她拍了兩張照片或者是說你在兒童成長的那個我們不是都有國民健康署都有一個佈置"},{"start":24462.09,"end":24485.914,"text":"你的準則定出來可能就是說你的居家服務人員必須要在手冊上必須要寫清楚刻意他責任講得清楚一點那我們剛剛講的就是說從家庭轉介到照顧那如何銜接那銜接的時候要哪些細節然後要進行哪一些程序才能讓他完善的銜接過去這個要不要定準則我覺得這個就很多空間了"},{"start":24486.514,"end":24510.836,"text":"所以比較完善的我現在不強迫你說哪一款要哪一款不要哪一些要哪一些不用你們好好的去思考然後跟找團體找專業人員去討論那當然是由我們寫的第二項才是比較好的寫法啦不是說我自己在這裡這個是托盟的版本老實說是第一線的從業人員根據他們所得到的經驗"},{"start":24511.917,"end":24534.028,"text":"那他們覺得這樣子寫出來才是不會有排他性說啊你現在三四五都不用了是這樣子所以是不是包括這個我們的第九條如果次長覺得說他們也同意的話主席剛才林淑芬的第九條是不是也應該是通過然後第十條也是這樣通過然後再去調次自行調整"},{"start":24536.029,"end":24564.157,"text":"來 請回應來OK 好 我覺得這個意見很好啦我覺得這個確實要 我們要做的該做的比較好你不要排他 好啊 這樣好啊你們的版本就排他啊不會啦 委員你們的版本就限縮在第一款第二款而已你們的版本就是說我中央只負責訂第一款第二款你的這個寫法並不是很恰當啊那用我們的我也沒有規定你全部每一款都要怎麼訂啊好 OK 委員這樣我們就遵照委員的意見這樣好不好 好就這樣"},{"start":24565.257,"end":24575.052,"text":"但是你也不能說改定的沒定啊你也不能夠改定的沒定啊我們都全面性啦要找相關的團體專業人士來討論好 等一下 林業情委員"},{"start":24581.241,"end":24597.595,"text":"剛剛有聽清楚淑芬委員講的可是我要問的是你們確定淑芬委員剛剛講的第九條跟現在你院版第八條都要按照這樣通過的話我剛剛提的未來是不是院版的第八條所有的東西都要滿足你的"},{"start":24601.159,"end":24618.839,"text":"因為我還是認為這兩者是有些競合關係的所以我要先確定那以後因為我相信如果沒事當然沒有什麼事情假設民眾會拿著說你當初我拼錢保姆沒有達到這些目標"},{"start":24619.7,"end":24637.038,"text":"會不會所以我覺得要先釐清如果事實上是原來培育委員跟屬分委員的假設那一條是事實上是是整個整體的國家的整個托育政策方向我沒有意見可是如果現在都是寫四個字不管是第八條都寫托育服務"},{"start":24637.739,"end":24666.607,"text":"那一個是內容一個是目標所以未來這些內容都要回應你的目標如果有一天民眾拿出來說你包括沒有回應到這個目標的時候能不能我們會不會被挑戰所以我覺得先請你們能夠回應答回答清楚我覺得才可以我不要講說通過的話有點擔心說到時候會不會有競合關係這是第一個第二個是我當初提的你們剛還沒回答我就說我認為這個第八條我有提出來說因以兒童為主體"},{"start":24667.287,"end":24691.557,"text":"因為我覺得這個托育政策本來主要照顧的就是以兒童為主體然後要秉持性別族群文化平等並重這幾個字所以我有這兩個意見來 新政機關要回應之前要不要再思考一下因為我們現在處理的就是陳培英委員的第八條跟林淑媛的第九條剛剛是講說通過了啦"},{"start":24692.335,"end":24711.249,"text":"然後是調適就請你們做調整嘛現在是院版的第八條等其他委員的有九條第四條等這個一個換籌嘛所以你們要怎麼處理就定準則你們自己去設限啦反而委員提出來的版本是沒有所謂的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個"},{"start":24712.185,"end":24739.506,"text":"去針對哪幾項去做處理反而是給你們更多的空間要去定這幾項的準則該定不定你們自己決定嘛應該是這麼講好但是林燕瓊委員又講說你把陳委員林委員的第八九跟現在院本的第八跟其他委員的第八或九這個有沒有競合的關係你們要思考清楚那你如果現在沒辦法馬上討我沒關係我是可以給你五分鐘"},{"start":24741.502,"end":24749.445,"text":"主席不好意思我就一個就是關心但也許不是非常厲害的觀點來講這裡其中的一個點是因為兩位委員他們談的這個目標沒有人反對但是它裡面是有寫應與家庭跟社區密切配合以達成下列目標所以感覺這九項目標是屬於這三方要一起承擔完成的"},{"start":24771.212,"end":24796.083,"text":"那今天你的立法因為我們重點在托育服務嘛就是照顧者的這一方他要做這些事情就是有一點他把三個東西放在那裡才會有那個好的目標嘛今天因為這邊是這樣寫所以那個競合關係可能就是這樣子啦因為那個是要大家一起來做才做得到的目標啦但是現在你又針對照顧者我們要求我們看要看他做什麼我覺得那個問題是這樣跑出來競合的問題"},{"start":24798.867,"end":24799.108,"text":"你太多了好嗎?"},{"start":25547.011,"end":25550.816,"text":"我們第八條還在溝通,我們再讓他們溝通完成,再繼續來處理"},{"start":25618.294,"end":25627.539,"text":"好 我們繼續開會剛剛有協調嘛是不是請衛部來做一個宣讀一下看怎麼處理"},{"start":25630.747,"end":25657.402,"text":"那個剛才跟委員報告我們大概整理了一下吼那有關陳佩玉委員第八條和林淑芬委員第九條的部分吼因為他的文字是一個比較上位的概念吼那我們建議在條次的部分做一個挪移我們會把它挪到往前移到現在第四條的現在行政院版第四條的後面吼就是第四條的"},{"start":25658.542,"end":25670.671,"text":"第四條前面 對不起就是插到第四條前面第三條 插到第三條後面第四條前面就是文字都不動就把那個委員版的文字我們把它放到前面去然後就是說把我們的第九條改成第四條的第一項第九條的全部內容"},{"start":25685.782,"end":25700.166,"text":"就變成第四條原來行政院版的第四條順移變成第五條條次就往後順移對啊就是第一項啊第四條的第一項啊其他的你們原來的你們原來就要照我們的也要修正喔那個"},{"start":25705.922,"end":25735.124,"text":"第四條然後原第四條變第五條嗎對原來的第四條就變成第五條喔可以就是整個插到前面多一就是條次插到前面去而已我可不可以建議不知道淑芬委員覺得怎麼樣這邊可不可以寫托育政策或托育服務政策不要托育服務四個字會跟我覺得第八條院版第八條的會變產生漢格一個是內容一個這如果是整個是政策的整個大方向裡面要滿足這些事"},{"start":25737.642,"end":25739.284,"text":"那是不是可以加政策我們沒問題"},{"start":25767.623,"end":25777.509,"text":"行政院版的第八條的部分第一項的序文就依照林業勤委員版本的文字我們把它納進來"},{"start":25779.973,"end":25803.461,"text":"就是改成依照年月型版本的年月型委員版本的文字就是增加一句就是以兒童為托育服務應以兒童為主體秉持性別族群文化平等並重以尊重兒童發展及及家長"},{"start":25807.168,"end":25832.053,"text":"原則為前提提供符合404信之保育照顧其服務內容如下就是第一項的文字就是修改為引用林業勤委員的版本的文字來 請說陳任培委員"},{"start":25836.018,"end":25846.307,"text":"因為你前面是寫兒童發展嗎後面寫家長什麼家長需求嗎還是家長什麼原則為前提還是你是只尊重兒童及家長以尊重兒童發展還是就是你知道我意思嗎要怎麼調月請月請家長原則家長什麼原則"},{"start":25869.423,"end":25876.245,"text":"這個還是要思考一下原則你就有時候很難掌握了況且你還把它改為需求"},{"start":25902.207,"end":25913.185,"text":"這個對嘛 原則你就會擔心你怎麼不擔心需求這個有一點好的"},{"start":25917.373,"end":25935.002,"text":"然後順便一併報告一下就是在這一條的第二項的部分那就依照剛才委員們討論的結果文字原則上就是依照林淑芬委員版本和陳佩玉委員版本的"},{"start":25938.824,"end":25953.679,"text":"兩委員版本文字不太一樣,我們依照林淑溫委員版本的是不是可以依照林淑溫委員版本的文字所以我第二項就修正為前項托育服務內容之實施準則由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":25965.103,"end":25979.643,"text":"如果覺得需求會太大的話 我覺得我也同意啦 因為最主要我是要不要要前面的東西所以把及家長需求拿掉也沒關係 就是你尊重兒童發展維持原來的願板這樣子 為前提這樣好"},{"start":25982.646,"end":26005.471,"text":"所以這樣的話第一項的文字修修這個我再宣讀一次就是托育服務應以兒童為主體秉持性別族群文化平等並重以尊重兒童發展為前提提供符合404信之保育照顧其服務內容如下"},{"start":26040.844,"end":26041.364,"text":"我有在看"},{"start":26051.874,"end":26079.739,"text":"好現在我試著這麼宣告啦這個原有陳培原所提的第八條跟林淑媛所提的第九條然後就這個挪移到這個我們本法的第四條啦對不對應該這樣嘛照他們的條文通過嘛然後這個原有保留的行政院保留的第四條跟其他委員一樣相同的條文一樣持續保留啦順延第五條應該是這樣嘛對不對"},{"start":26082.691,"end":26098.561,"text":"然後現在處理的第八條跟其他委員一樣相容的也有第九條也有第八條 個別委員的版本那基本上我現在剛剛署長是講說以這個文字做一些修正用林業勤委員的序文修正然後這邊是行政院版那這邊是用林淑君委員的那個"},{"start":26109.028,"end":26126.715,"text":"第八條的序文是以林月琴委員的版本啦?OK然後最後這一項是依照林淑芬委員的這一段?她也有啊"},{"start":26129.164,"end":26153.525,"text":"林族委員的還有陳培宇委員的反正跟相關委員一樣的我們都人家提案我們還是要都講一下放進來最後一項就是所謂的前項托育服務內容之實施準則由中央主管定之這個因為看林委員的是這樣然後陳培宇委員是這樣還有其他如果有也沒有宣讀到的再請議事組這邊來做紀錄好不好"},{"start":26158.442,"end":26172.39,"text":"那第8條我們就依照這樣來修正通過各位有沒有其他意見沒有啦好謝謝那接續我們來審查這個院版的第9條第9條有"},{"start":26175.69,"end":26189.073,"text":"黃捷委員、蔡益委員、李昆城委員、郭益勤委員、鄭家宅委員、王美惠委員、吳培委員、黃振旭委員、換言委員、李燕秀委員、羅庭委員"},{"start":26198.357,"end":26208.935,"text":"陳培元是第10條然後林淑穩委員是第11條然後還有劉靜雯委員所提的修正動議來然後請行政機關來做說明"},{"start":26217.21,"end":26239.545,"text":"行政院版第九條的部分目前各委員的提案的版本文字上大概只有稍微一點點些許的不同內容上大概都跟行政院的版本是一致的這個部分我們建議是不是可以就依照行政院的版本的文字的內容這個大概以上"},{"start":26240.746,"end":26241.426,"text":"各位有沒有其他意見那請說"},{"start":26270.922,"end":26286.148,"text":"你就是稍微有增加這幾個字嘛我只是比較好奇啦情勢那時候台灣會叫做情勢我是說我們在寫特殊情勢這不知道有什麼特別的意思嗎"},{"start":26288.207,"end":26307.997,"text":"修正動議的說明裡面,我這邊要做一個補充,第一個就是,最主要是參考社會救助法第4條,特殊監獄家庭輔助條例第3條之一第一項,幼照法第7條第10項,以及社會認識制第596號檢視理由書有關立法者基於憲法保障特定對象或社會政策之考量。"},{"start":26308.777,"end":26320.136,"text":"符合比例原則之限制換人類能得以法律規範禁止執行特定財務之財產役職第三項規定然後把這個特殊情勢者做這樣的說明好"},{"start":26329.622,"end":26346.893,"text":"有支出啦 我知道 請補充跟 找我報告一下大概就是委員建議針的文字 針裂的文字的部分可能就其他透出情勢的事 那個字可能要改成事情的事啦對啊 對那個文字做一個更正那 證證這種部分 我們這邊都 我們都可以配合辦理好 OK 好這個是"},{"start":26358.479,"end":26372.98,"text":"好 那是不是就照這個劉建國委員所提的文字修正會通過好 各位有沒有其他意見 沒有好 我們就照這樣通過那接下來繼續來進行處理院版的第10條然後"},{"start":26374.673,"end":26398.149,"text":"多數都是第十條 何欣竹委員 黃景委員 蔡宇委員還有李坤貞委員 還有郭玉璇委員 曾立財委員 王美惠委員陳樹葉委員 還有吳佩儀委員 王振旭委員 范瑩委員還有游皓委員 林恩秀委員 羅庭委員 都是第十條然後這個林玉璇委員是第九條 王玉敏委員是第四十二條"},{"start":26401.67,"end":26413.432,"text":"邱若驊委員是第9條然後陳培委員是第11條林淑穎委員是第12條然後還有一個劉靜委員所提的修正動議好 請行政機關來做說明"},{"start":26415.093,"end":26444.37,"text":"第十條的部分各委員的版本和行政院的提案內容有相對不一樣的地方主要是大概差在對於這些辦理績效卓著的托育服務的單位行政院版是得於獎勵有很多委員的版本是因於獎勵這個部分的話我們是覺得因為考慮到獎勵的部分其實對於托育人員相關服務的世系會有比較正面的激勵的效果"},{"start":26444.87,"end":26461.435,"text":"那我們是可以尊重那我們也接受委員們的意見我們可以把這個因可以把德把它改成因這部分我們可以配合辦理那另外有少數的幾位委員例如像邱若驊委員和陳培鈺委員的提案的內容"},{"start":26462.515,"end":26481.244,"text":"有針對這個獎勵的部分還有在要授權去定辦法的部分因為這個是屬於這個等於是授予利益的處分而且是由地方來操作的每個縣市每個縣市自己的這個因地制宜的做法"},{"start":26481.784,"end":26497.91,"text":"那这个部分我们就建议地方的话因为这类是属于授予利益就不一定要用法规命令可以不用以法规命令的形式来定我们是建议在第十条部分可以不要增订相关的授权的法规命令这个部分那就请委员参考以上"},{"start":26499.232,"end":26514.465,"text":"好 請陳議員完之後再請陳經理委員再請林淑媛再請陳秉立委員好 謝謝我想要做一個 舉一個實例讓大家來思考一下這個問題因為我以這個體育競賽來舉例"},{"start":26520.35,"end":26531.844,"text":"在每一年或每兩年我們的這個全國的全運會或遠運會譬如說台東的代表都派出去"},{"start":26533.75,"end":26558.451,"text":"開始各縣市就開始比賽就是說哪個縣市每個縣市政府因為財政的問題所以大家準備的這個獎勵的方式跟獎金就差很多而且差距很大那會不會這樣子的獎勵未來會不會造成一些落差譬如說有些專業人員"},{"start":26560.673,"end":26578.104,"text":"往外跑都不想留在這個獎勵比較差的地方我這個是有一些超前的思考啦那剛剛衛福部這邊表達的也很有道理"},{"start":26578.925,"end":26595.132,"text":"好的就是因地制宜授權給各地方但是但是我們總會有遇到這個落差的問題大家心理上其實會有很多的感慨我就提出這樣子如果有一套中央統一"},{"start":26596.512,"end":26619.144,"text":"處理的方式我們領選各縣市優良辦理優良的單位好或者是人員這也是一種方式我想這個我是可能大家沒有去思考到就是說各縣市的那種財政的問題好所以我只是提醒好那也尊重大家意見討論討論好好再請陳靜物委員"},{"start":26622.918,"end":26640.552,"text":"因為院版是寫這個得於以獎勵感覺是有點比較消極我希望可以更鼓勵的成分進去就是明定就是會獎勵而且會有獎勵的辦法那這邊是參考立法院法治局的一個評估報告他建議的版本是"},{"start":26642.233,"end":26654.876,"text":"如何來辦理屬績效族會議因如何辦理應該增訂第二項規定得由直轄縣市主管機關訂定相關獎勵辦法以資明確可以嗎好謝謝再請陳比武委員"},{"start":26666.468,"end":26695.868,"text":"好 谢谢主席我自己是有提一个附带决议不过我觉得有很多细致的事情也想要拜托卫福部陪我们一起想一想就是我希望有那个鼓励的部分是希望还有奖励的部分因为确实我们遇到有状况的这些托育人员或是保姆我们当然希望有相关惩罚的机制确保孩子们的权益可是在对于做得好的这些人我们可不可以有相关的奖励机制不过因为刚刚月勤委员用第一线的实务提醒我"},{"start":26696.568,"end":26721.959,"text":"就是说会不会有不当提报好的我举个例子好了例如说淑芬委员是大家都很熟的保姆然后我是评审委员我可能过去跟你关系良好那反正如果现在有这个奖励机制那我就提报你可是实际上我可能一年可以去看你的这个次数可能就一次或两次这样但你在我去看你的时候你就故意做得很好或者是你有些"},{"start":26723.32,"end":26743.538,"text":"狀況其實我平常是不知道的可是我們又希望有獎勵機制如何把這個獎勵機制真的可以做到對做到好我覺得實務上是有相關困難那所以雖然我有這個附帶決議的提案但是我還是希望我們有沒有機會可以就實務面來討論在相關獎勵機制上我們到底還可以做些什麼事情以上謝謝好再請林月琴委員"},{"start":26748.38,"end":26768.357,"text":"我覺得獎勵都是好事可是在過去我們的實務裡邊的確曾經發生過因為被評為優等結果是惡劣的狀態發生過那因為我早上就提過居托中心本來這個承辦居托中心的就稱之不齊甚至過去有些縣市辦優質保姆的時候我們去當評選委員就發現說他就是"},{"start":26771.48,"end":26800.232,"text":"五個杯子啊五個杯子啊你就明明知道他超收可是重點是那為什麼居托中心會推薦出來說要作為優質保姆評選的人選因為我覺得本來就看的次數不多所以我覺得人員的獎勵我覺得要問你們如果說培育委員這樣建議有沒有更好的方法去減少掉可能存在的問題否則會讓民眾尤其是家長信心大崩盤是說優的怎麼會變成事實上他是惡虐那就會讓人家有所擔憂"},{"start":26801.632,"end":26813.817,"text":"所以如果要獎勵人員的話你們有沒有比較多的一個好的考量然後我覺得才可以去做這樣子的一個按照培育委員列的那個靈動來去做以上來 請林淑慧委員我覺得第一現場的人看的可能就是"},{"start":26824.264,"end":26842.502,"text":"想得比較仔細啦但對我們來講就是說寫成英語獎勵的狀況就是說你知道現在因為耍子的話那大家對於這個願意幫我們照顧小孩然後因為你知道是托育人員的這個"},{"start":26843.903,"end":26859.839,"text":"待遇老實說也不但勞動條件真的是很辛苦很辛苦那如果這種狀況裡面做得好的我們給他獎勵我覺得本來是想說應該的應該在少子化國安危機這麼嚴重的時候盡量正向的去給他們給獎勵這樣子但是"},{"start":26863.542,"end":26885.422,"text":"月景講的那個東西並不是不可能發生可是那個不是這個獎不獎勵的問題了因為每個人都會改變你現在都完全沒問題的人你怎麼知道三五年了他會不會轉性或是突然怎麼樣家庭有變故整個人的個性不一樣然後他從一個優良的變成一個恐怖的保姆的這種東西本來就"},{"start":26889.195,"end":26909.72,"text":"本來就是很難去因為人不是生產一個產品那規格化標準化永遠都不會變的所以當然不要講優良保姆就是說優良的廠商也有可能會變然後優良的什麼其實每個人都會變優良的立委也會變"},{"start":26911.932,"end":26932.999,"text":"對啊我要說明我不是反對也可能啦 不是會啦不知道 抱歉我剛剛講錯了不是一定會變優良的立委也可能會變化也可能啦我的意思是說那個機制要處理好來因為我剛剛提的那個事實上是時間很接近不是兩三年後才發生說它被評為優等"},{"start":26934.159,"end":26945.599,"text":"只是說 我說評選的他的這個人到底狀況是怎樣所以我反而覺得整個的評選的方法這些東西要很確保才不會到時候發生我剛剛講的那種發生這樣的事情"},{"start":26949.2,"end":26971.194,"text":"這個聽起來都很像執行面的問題那如果原則上精神上我們支持這個方向那未來在執行面怎麼樣防弊怎麼樣讓這個徵選制度還有評選要不要利益迴避利益迴避應遵循哪些東西就交給行政部門自行去授權給他們自己去制定那如果這個方向大家確定了那我們就先通過這樣子OK 好"},{"start":26978.676,"end":26990.984,"text":"來 什麼方向要不要補充說明一下來 署長 請把方向講清楚剛剛大家的意見彙整之後是什麼方向麻煩請說明"},{"start":26996.741,"end":27013.24,"text":"就是 我們就是朝向鼓勵嘛 鼓勵這個方向剛剛委員有說一些執行面上面來說 確實你剛才講的那個 陳議員有講的就是城鄉差距的部分嘛我們在執行面的部分 我們也來考慮這個因素啦 這樣好不好"},{"start":27023.475,"end":27043.342,"text":"這個我們就會綜合考量,但是朝向我們鼓勵的方向,好不好?好,感謝,謝謝好,我們第四條來處理啦,就是依照有相關委員的提案,就是得改為因各位也應該沒有其他意見啦,那我們就照這樣通過然後這邊有陳培偉的互代決議,我請醫師組來做宣讀"},{"start":27052.199,"end":27068.06,"text":"附帶決議兒童托育服務法草案第十條規定托育服務辦理績效著住者直轄市縣市主管機關得予以獎勵鑑於現行民眾已可與衛生福利部社會及家庭屬之"},{"start":27068.661,"end":27092.257,"text":"托育媒合平台網站查詢到合法持有證照之居家托育人員名單原請衛生福利部建立優良托育服務人員之獎勵機制時可將優良未違規之居家托育人員名單登在於托育媒合平台網站以利家長查詢亦可達到公開表彰優良人員之目的"},{"start":27092.737,"end":27105.776,"text":"提案人委員陳培余、連署人委員林淑芬、黃振旭、黃秀芳宣讀完畢好,針對陳培余委員所提的附帶區域,行政機關有沒有要表示意見?"},{"start":27107.436,"end":27135.104,"text":"謝謝委員的提議有關在這個媒合平台去做相關的資料登載的部分原則上行政部門會積極來推動唯一只有一個比較小的部分跟委員有一個小的請求就是說委員的提案動議裡面有一個叫做未違規一般我們大概會優良的我們會把它公布出來第二是有違規的會公告出來未違規我們會建議是不是可以刪掉謝謝"},{"start":27137.503,"end":27160.901,"text":"好 那陳培永的修正都議就把剛剛那個字眼刪掉好 二維規三個字修正修掉 修正完之後通過各位有沒有其他意見啦沒有 我們回來接一句 照修正完後通過剛剛第十條我還是重新宣告一下啦我看到林淑媛委員也是陰嘛然後這個我這邊所提的修正都議也是陰那我們就照"},{"start":27161.693,"end":27185.254,"text":"有提應的部分來做這樣的條文的文字來做通過謝謝好接下來我們繼續來處理委員王一鳴第48條委員陳培宇第12條那委員林淑芬第13條還有委員林淑芬的修正動議來請行政機關來做先做說明"},{"start":27186.601,"end":27207.254,"text":"有關王委員陳委員和林委員的部分這個大體上來說現在在我們有查閱一下在現行的幼照法裡面大概也有類似的規範那主要是家長在這個家長或者是家長或者監護人的時候有跟"},{"start":27207.994,"end":27228.206,"text":"這個做托育的或者是這個照顧人中間有一些協力的一些要配合的事項那在這邊的話原則上我們這個我們可以我們覺得在這邊要去納進來我們在文字上面我們是可以支持的那我們建議的文字那我們現在有有一個大概建議的"},{"start":27229.847,"end":27249.142,"text":"我們建議如果要列的話這個是不是可以就是綜合一下各委員的版本那大概就是要履行的義務有以下這幾項第一個是依照托育書面契約的規定要來繳費第二個是是"},{"start":27258.519,"end":27284.266,"text":"現在不是要先討論我們的條文的第13條?行政院有版本嗎?行政院沒有版本對阿,那個條文跟我們的都完全不一樣那個衛福部有提出建議的條文在最左邊啦在這一本的最左邊不是啊,建議的條文他沒有這一本,他有建議條文阿"},{"start":27287.598,"end":27304.837,"text":"各位委員可以參考,我們有整理一個發給各位委員的一個建議條文的版本應該在第四頁,第四章有發給各位委員,建議條文看一下好不好"},{"start":27311.599,"end":27318.067,"text":"早上有提供給各位議員的那目前是各位看一下條文我們也提供一份在這邊"},{"start":27324.444,"end":27347.694,"text":"因為這個是委員版的主要是委員版條文我們現在還沒有列條次請各位委員參閱我們現在建議的文字就如同現在有投影在上面我們建議的文字是兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應履行下列義務第一款依托育書面契約規定繳費"},{"start":27349.275,"end":27377.692,"text":"二 參加托育機構因其兒童特殊需要舉辦之個案研討或相關活動三 參加托育機構舉辦之親職活動四 告知兒童特殊身心狀況必要時並提供相關健康狀況資料並與居家托育人員或托育機構共同協力改善兒童之身心健康"},{"start":27379.456,"end":27387.086,"text":"好陳培遠跟林書偉所提的版本是相同的現在衛福部這麼建立兩位"},{"start":27388.473,"end":27414.787,"text":"好那謝謝主席那我先說我看起來衛福部覺得可以放進來那調色我們等一下再說不過衛福部把我們建議關於如果居多人員發現或是家長發現孩子沒有特殊身心狀況的時候我們希望由相關主管機關提供資源協助主要是因為其實這幾年在很多早聊的狀況不管是量能的問題或者是家長啊法定代理人有沒有發現有沒有"},{"start":27417.368,"end":27444.77,"text":"責任感去面對這個狀況或者是他有沒有能力他們能量去應對這個狀況所以我們才會提出希望應主動提供資源但是我猜想在實務現場的困境就是說這些主管機關如何對接到家長法定代理人可能會有困難所以但是我們站在照顧兒少的立場我們還是希望這個可能性所以也許請衛福部給我們建議好以上謝謝好再請提案委員林淑溫來做說明"},{"start":27446.781,"end":27466.034,"text":"我覺得很荒謬耶我覺得看起來好像把我們第一項全放進去了可是我覺得很荒謬因為我們多了這一條在講的是說各級主管機關對於這一類的特殊幼兒應該要主動提供資源給這些幼兒兒童的幼兒的法定代理人或是實際照顧人我們重點是第二項"},{"start":27470.629,"end":27496.196,"text":"就是說雖然法定代理人或是實際照顧兒童的人要履行第一項的義務但是各級主管機關都有前項第四款兒童的法定代理人或者是實際照顧的人應該主動提供資源協助這個是最核心啦這個是我們的條文的最核心然後再來講說那為什麼回到第一項為什麼"},{"start":27497.116,"end":27520.331,"text":"你們同意我要講第一線的人請我告訴你們的為什麼兒童的法定代理人或是實際照顧的人要履行這一些義務其實是有原因的但其實我先講第三款我個人覺得說我這樣的強度會不會太高了第三款對家長來講強度會不會太高了或者是說對於階級"},{"start":27523.215,"end":27550.841,"text":"積極能力可能比較有問題的人所以我自己對我自己的第三款覺得我是覺得應該是盡量鼓勵啦然後第三款我自己也有一點點質疑 質疑啦 質疑那第四款是要告訴大家就是說很多兒童有特殊的身心狀況但是有家長不敢老實的說出來因為怕說出來以後保母不願意幫你帶孩子甚至"},{"start":27552.022,"end":27576.957,"text":"機構也不願意幫你帶孩子在這種狀況裡面我們才要扣合到第二項政府要給予協助那這種狀況不說出來會有什麼影響有時候事情很嚴重的喔當你的孩子有癲癇你不告訴他鄉鄉發作去的保姆不可以歡迎喔或者是在機構裡面第一線的從業人員他們有一個經驗說其實女孩子"},{"start":27580.459,"end":27603.508,"text":"來一直哭 你不順利一直哭哭不哭他會斷氣這是第一線的人的刺激經驗他會斷氣耶 他沒辦法呼吸他只要生氣就會哭一哭絕對哭不停 哭到他斷氣老是怕死啊但是大家開始的時候 家長沒跟他們說耶他們知道了以後說請問你這個孩子你要繼續哭嗎"},{"start":27606.889,"end":27626.608,"text":"你這個孩子 你知道啊 家長也跟你說啊你要繼續照顧嗎所以在這種狀況裡面家長跟這個托育服務機構到底要怎麼樣協調也不是只有他們雙方的事所以我們在覺得說那這個各級主管機關面臨這種狀況要怎麼主動提供資源來協助他們"},{"start":27632.594,"end":27644.869,"text":"所以這一條看起來好像克折於這個家長要有責任你的兒童 這個都是特殊兒童居多你的兒童有特殊狀況你要怎麼樣的狀況 如果要跟你討論你兒子的狀況 你要來開花喔"},{"start":27649.705,"end":27674.385,"text":"但是實際是真的,政府真的遇到特殊兒童的狀況你政府的資源、協助要進來,這個才是重點我算家屬,你會改變版本看看,都把核心重點,每一條都刪除我覺得今天法律從早上審到現在,你就是不想做那麼多,給我就是這種觀感"},{"start":27676.451,"end":27694.412,"text":"我提效皆非你看老趙尼委員第一項的版本全部納入了成效了你完全沒有納入這種孩子需要政府來倒三天這種的服務機構保姆這種的家長需要政府伸出援手"},{"start":27695.513,"end":27711.206,"text":"所以我們才要在法律裡面 刻意政府要有這樣的資源協助是這樣子所以你如果要放下去 你覺得我們說的是對的 也需要的你應該把第二項放進來是這樣子才對好 這群孩子 你就放得好來 先進去請委員好就這樣放好了"},{"start":27725.541,"end":27747.197,"text":"我覺得如果是第三或是二跟三可能要考慮因為這個是因沒有去考慮到家長到底如果他工作上的需求他沒辦法參加這個因會不會變成我覺得一跟四是一定有必要性因為現在很多時候有時候保姆會收不到錢"},{"start":27748.459,"end":27768.781,"text":"他應該依書面契約規定來做繳費那的確剛剛淑芬委員提的真的實務現場很多家長他可能醫護人員他就覺得喔還好啊屏息症也沒怎麼樣可是真的會把保母或者是托孕中心的托育人員嚇壞了因為他根本沒有料想到孩子突然沒有呼吸"},{"start":27769.722,"end":27783.738,"text":"的這樣的狀態 或者是有先天性心臟病可是二跟三強度這麼強 但我知道說因為如果是因為機構已經辦了這個你的孩子特殊需要我覺得如果是為了他自己本身的孩子"},{"start":27784.338,"end":27803.191,"text":"開的個案研討會可以可是相關活動我覺得太大那到時候家長沒辦法那他會不會覺得說你應該要來參加這個可能會有一個他工作上沒辦法可是3一樣也是有這樣的問題3他沒有放棄但是我請求大家支持我們就是說3如果把它強度變成說盡量參加"},{"start":27805.412,"end":27827.74,"text":"盡量參加那二的話這個的確就是for你的孩子你自己的孩子有特殊需要老師認為要個案研討了那也一定要來參加啦就是說一個特殊兒童你知道有時候就是說你要早一點來一起討論我們要給予他什麼樣的支持資源比如說像發展遲緩那"},{"start":27830.101,"end":27854.966,"text":"發展池丸可能老師就發現了家長不一定有能力發現那老師發現了要一起來討論家長一定要來參加是不是這樣子啦至少要這樣子第二款這個個案研討針對你自己的孩子要來參加那第三款也留著就是說盡量要來參加我知道這個東西的確樣態很多所以盡量"},{"start":27855.606,"end":27863.633,"text":"比較像是道德上希望但是就是說最重點是第二項第二項一定要放進去來請王振旭委員"},{"start":27870.236,"end":27891.564,"text":"也聽了孫委員的這些相關的說明比較清楚知道現在新增的或是非委員的第12條跟孫委員的第13條的具體內容的要求是這樣那針對於第二款第三款我覺得要參加的確會有一些困境比如說他本來"},{"start":27892.544,"end":27914.202,"text":"就有很多家庭要處理的事情那如果跟他不一定那麼相關我們就要求他參加的確是有他的困難所以如果在第二款跟第三款尤其是第三款前面加一個得得參加的話就表示可以參加也可以不參加這樣的這個處理模式我不知道等一下也許還可以再討論"},{"start":27917.748,"end":27937.978,"text":"再來就是第二項各級主管機關應該對前項第四款兒童的確是有一些特殊身心狀況之下很希望能夠讓照顧者就是這些人員能夠"},{"start":27938.758,"end":27960.144,"text":"掌握到個別狀況的特殊需求之下應該有更好的資源或者是有需要家長配合的地方這邊我比較擔心就是說因為最後寫就是需要透過主管機關應主動的提供資源來協助那怎麼樣才能夠叫做主動就是說主管機關"},{"start":27961.484,"end":27975.374,"text":"當他面臨這樣的狀況的時候他什麼情形下他才能夠掌握到主動這樣的資源的發動這個我想可能還要再確認一下以上"},{"start":27977.966,"end":28004.406,"text":"來再請林淑媛抱歉各位同仁就是說剛剛在討論的時候本來想說參加這個個案研討或相關活動但相關活動這裡還是指涉到針對這一個個案那如果叫他說要參加找療的活動或找療的評估活動那就是相關活動那可能就不是個案研討找療的活動"},{"start":28010.397,"end":28038.019,"text":"像早療就是活動所以但是第二款講的就是自己的孩子的啦不是全校辦的活動或是班級辦的活動就是for你自己的孩子所以我們立法說明欄如果講清楚的話你的孩子是一個特殊兒童或有特殊需要的那為這個孩子一起來討論要怎麼要照顧或者是說要一個早療計畫的話那這些活動你應該都要來參加是這樣子"},{"start":28040.253,"end":28048.539,"text":"如果是特殊兒童我想沒有這種家長不參與全部都叫托育機構承擔起全部的責任的啦是這樣子"},{"start":28056.255,"end":28083.382,"text":"來 請第三項的話就是盡量參加因為如果不是否個案的話不是為自己的孩子我覺得可不可以建議就寫參加托育機構因其兒童之因為這樣子是我自己的小兒子之特殊需要所辦理不要舉辦 我覺得感恩大家大型的活動舉辦理的個案會議不要研討會有點比較是在那種大型研討會那種"},{"start":28084.662,"end":28105.206,"text":"所以個案會議是要商討我的孩子我覺得相關活動我認為還是要拿掉啦為什麼因為我覺得最主要是一對一的去找專家來討論你說活動像找療活動這些東西因為家長如果他確認他孩子有特殊需求本來其他單位就會辦找療活動現在反而是他在這邊一定要強迫他來跟教保人員去討論他孩子的狀況跟專業人員一起討論才能夠去處理我覺得後續活動要不要參加我不認為那反而"},{"start":28113.027,"end":28138.454,"text":"那可是我覺得最難的會是三三因為前面已經因了可是三又說要參加你說盡量參加應盡量參加那也我不知道所有委員的想法是什麼否則的話就很難因為前面已經講了應了第三款我覺得可以討論啦但是就是說第一項一開始這些這些義務都是應喔應喔不是得喔對啦應把第三項齁放在"},{"start":28139.284,"end":28162.308,"text":"後邊有一點比較宣誓心意要放的話不要放在這邊可以看怎麼調整我覺得第三款啦第三款我是覺得可以看怎麼調整我個人是沒有對啦因為我知道很多家庭有很多客觀的條件上不見得每項每次都可以參加啦如果是一個不是針對這個那個好"},{"start":28165.729,"end":28179.881,"text":"但是第二款第二款就是說除了研討以外還會有相關的什麼如果不是活動那還會有相關的什麼是不是讓我們也來想一想但基本上就是說以上這些都是因"},{"start":28181.222,"end":28203.341,"text":"應履行的義務然後第一款第二款的方向大家都確認然後第四款也都確認那第三款再來討論但第二項一定要留著那主動的這個概念其實是很難界定的所以我也可以說那應提供資源協助好再請陳培委員來做說明"},{"start":28209.427,"end":28235.069,"text":"我想回到第三款參加托育機構舉辦之輕職活動我當然知道有所謂文化階級不利的家庭確實要因參加是有困難的可是我也想要提醒大家我們之前在處理非常多家庭教育中心或者是中正教育司的家庭教育活動我們進到小學階段來看很多家長主席你站起來是我不能講話嗎沒有"},{"start":28236.17,"end":28262.72,"text":"我想说未还的规矩我不懂很多老师其实会告诉我们很多孩子们小时候的问题如果没有及早发现及早解决其实进了小学之后已经六岁七岁很多状况是难以调整那我们现在又回来要谈家庭教育是重要的话可不可以第三款不要拔掉但是因为前提是阴嘛我们可不可以有一个比较"},{"start":28264.144,"end":28288.406,"text":"比較友善的寫法就是孩子就是自己孩子的情況然後參加相關親子活動也就是說我們不要把這裡就把親子活動做退讓的啦因為很多現場的老師對於家長們自己有各種可能進修學習的方法這件事情上現在老師的困境很大那我們現在在這個法如果這樣寫"},{"start":28289.927,"end":28318.102,"text":"我擔心會影響到我們後續在做很多親子家庭教育活動的時候因為說實話現在也有很多線上的或者是學校學校可能跟地方教育局處配合用一次性的經費辦一些親子日但可能也就完成了所謂親子活動那我完全理解我自己就是一個文化不利的家庭長大的小孩我爸爸從來也就沒有參加過親子活動所以我可以理解文化不利的困境但精神上我們如何兼顧那個可能性好不好謝謝"},{"start":28319.795,"end":28344.122,"text":"好再請林月琴委員反正就來處理這條如果是宣誓性異議當然沒有太大問題可是如果定嬰我也反過來問是說有沒有法則或要怎麼樣去處理如果他不參加我違反你這個法律會怎麼樣我先把孩子送到保母家然後拘托中心要我說要來上或托嬰中心說要我說參加活動如果我不參加"},{"start":28345.6,"end":28352.764,"text":"那會有什麼樣的這個因為還就如果宣誓信義我同意可是用陰的話就是說我一定要參加不參加會怎麼樣"},{"start":28355.517,"end":28378.373,"text":"甚至我不參與像剛剛講特殊聲音狀況我要他提供我提供這樣我不知道說列的時候有沒有後面有搭配的罰則否則沒有罰則的話除非訂到那個托育契約那托育契約真的那也一樣要問有沒有罰則否則的話這個訂就真的是宣誓心音可是我們用的強度是音對"},{"start":28383.793,"end":28396.024,"text":"因為我們的版本是沒有罰則但是可以討論如果要把它強度很強的話那就是必須要訂罰則那我們沒有訂罰則的話當然是宣示性是比較大但是"},{"start":28398.638,"end":28421.012,"text":"對 可以用陰啊 因為如果沒有法則的話這個雖然我沒有提案 但是我只很好奇我想跟社家屬也確認一下就是說其實我們現在在0到20歲的時候小朋友不一定那個時候可能都還沒有鑑定嘛因為我們之前講特殊需要的時候那這個特殊需要在沒有鑑定可能都還沒有鑑定的時候那實務上要怎麼去進行這個所謂的相關的個案會議"},{"start":28423.024,"end":28443.729,"text":"因為通常在小學通常很多時候都是已經鑑定出來會產生這些相關的嘛個案會議但如果他沒有被鑑定出來的時候這邊講到特殊需求要如何產生個案會議這時候我想要釐清的部分可以請社家屬說明一下嗎好 請次長綜合回覆好 抱歉 我先簡單講一句話剛才那個委員有這麼關心就是說第二項嘛好啦 這個部分我是覺得 其實老實說我們目前的那個照料其實原則上我們應該都會進行啦"},{"start":28451.511,"end":28472.261,"text":"有些人如果不放心沒關係我們就放進來這個我們也儘表同意沒關係但是你現在說因主動提供是不是可以授權我們有一個文字上面來體現這個精神這樣好不好這第二項我們大概就是我們把它放進來沒問題其他第二項就是說第二款第三款要因或怎麼樣我們也尊重大家第三個蔣麗玲委員剛才說的我請署長來回答一下"},{"start":28478.384,"end":28497.061,"text":"張委員剛才提到的這個部分其實現在如果是有可能有疑似發展遲緩的部分那他其實他不會有年齡的問題他即使是很早期他就可以進行通報那一通報之後就可以開始去做導入後面的有關去做鑑定或者是等等相關的流程"},{"start":28497.621,"end":28514.353,"text":"所以這個這樣的如果他比較在比較早期就發現的話其實他在0到2歲他很可能就已經可以開始進入藻寮的相關的服務了我的問題就是說我們這次的特殊需要是已經鑑定的還是疑似的都算是認定在特殊需要上面"},{"start":28514.893,"end":28529.62,"text":"對他有需要的部分他就可以他就提早的來通報因為我想那個特殊需要的這個四個字兒童制特殊需要的話我覺得你們可能是要把它定很明定的很清楚是說今天他還沒有完成鑑定但是我們疑似你們懂我的意思嗎是是這樣"},{"start":28530.82,"end":28531.3,"text":"有關於就是說那個"},{"start":28549.153,"end":28568.732,"text":"要求建議要就是說那個退役機構所舉辦的這個相關親子活動這個部分我再補充一下因為其實有很多的這個單親單親的家庭然後那"},{"start":28570.56,"end":28592.541,"text":"那我自己本身過來那周遭的那個人力的資源有時候未必那麼健全的時候所以我覺得這個除了鼓勵之外大家在討論那個法則那我就覺得可能有時候真的在一些很特殊的狀況的時候這些人可能就很倒霉了就"},{"start":28594.361,"end":28621.281,"text":"對我是說因為剛剛有委員就是說宣誓性的條文那因為沒有沒有罰則我只是就是說這個應該不應該是要有罰則的部分對那還有就是說確實在小孩子早期有很多狀況我們其實家長是不知道"},{"start":28622.577,"end":28650.194,"text":"那後來發現之後其實還有一段掙扎的時間因為要不要去拿那個手冊好所以這個東西然後再來就是說我要去面對這件事情我很怕講了學校不收我了這個其實都是過去我個人實際面臨到的問題所以這個可能這個部分再請大家多琢磨要多注意謝謝"},{"start":28653.709,"end":28662.626,"text":"那你們要怎麼處理行政機關?要現在馬上修?修一修然後給...你插吧"},{"start":28663.976,"end":28684.254,"text":"主席我可以我剛自己都說了我自己是來自文化不利的家庭我可以理解舉辦親子活動我應參加確實對家長是很大的壓力我可以拿掉但是只是說我們如何在協助家長陪伴孩子成長的過程當中也有不斷增能的可能然後也知道說政府"},{"start":28684.634,"end":28702.947,"text":"其實各縣市政府在衛福部的支持之下預算協助支持之下各地方政府現在都很會辦很多親子講座那個錢絕對有很大一部分是來自中央政府那我也只是想要在這個議題上希望我們中央政府持續有角色在協助家長進行所謂的家長增能這一塊這樣子"},{"start":28703.908,"end":28729.718,"text":"那但是又不要造成壓力也不要有罰則原則上宣誓性的做法或者是也給第一線的保育人員包含提到我剛說的孩子們進了小學之後國中很多老師也都希望家長是持續跟著孩子一起成長我覺得這件事情非常非常重要這樣好 至於怎麼寫也許你們再給我們意見 謝謝那先請林玉琴委員完之後再請林淑媛委員"},{"start":28731.172,"end":28758.935,"text":"我覺得整部法原來原則上是去規範托育服務中心或托育中心或者互助室那或居家托育服務人員現在突然又轉個彎要去規範家長就這一條去規範家長我覺得主體上對我來講有點亂掉所以我才會一直講說沒有發展可是如果說今天主體還是回到事實上是機構或居家托育服務中心要去辦理這些事情"},{"start":28759.676,"end":28780.595,"text":"然後呢鼓勵家長參加我說我覺得這宣誓心意講因最後你又對他沒有辦法處罰那可是這原本的主體我說本來就是針對於拘托中心的像保姆或拘托服務中心或者是托孕托育服務機構那可是現在又怎麼繞五彎回來是家長的時候對我來講"},{"start":28782.079,"end":28802.43,"text":"好像只有這一條是對家長那又沒有辦法有強度我也不知道最後如果沒有這樣做到底會怎麼樣那黨人是要不要去規範說今天拘托中心也好托嬰中心也好都要去做這件事情我覺得會不會比較是清楚他本來他工作上要去涵蓋這部分以上"},{"start":28803.757,"end":28817.615,"text":"來請林書惠園講完之後我們就處理了各位很抱歉我再多講一點就是說托育服務的主體當然是托育員員然後被托育的幼兒那當然最重要當然還有家長"},{"start":28818.376,"end":28845.151,"text":"所以這三個主體其實是確定的我們主要的規範都是在於提供托育服務的人或者是機構要克制他要有什麼樣的約束或者是要求他做什麼托育服務或是國家政策怎麼訂但是這一題為什麼要訂這個是我就跟你講因為第一線的從業人員他們經常感到挫折或是經常遇到"},{"start":28846.051,"end":28869.471,"text":"他們覺得很困擾的事情那所以才說托育的三個主體裡面家長也應該要課以他一些責任那在這個責任裡面我們不能強度管得太多所以我們強度沒有很高到設了一個罰則但是這個宣示這個家長也要involve到這個托育服務裡面來這個是責任因為孩子是家長的"},{"start":28870.151,"end":28883.121,"text":"那責任要承擔到哪些當然就是你要繳錢或是你有這裡只限定在這個特殊兒童 兒童特殊需求那兒童特殊需求的狀況我們當然也指示到有疑似的狀態"},{"start":28885.123,"end":28901.59,"text":"因為0到2歲你說除非是先天的疾病的否則0到2歲不容易說馬上就知道說他是不是有馬上就特殊兒童的鑑定出來很難啦所以我們所謂特殊兒童的需求當然是包含疑似的"},{"start":28902.811,"end":28926.332,"text":"特殊需求有疑似有障礙的或疑似有遲緩的還有當然就是已經確定的有障礙的或已經確定有遲緩的所以全部都包含在這個裡面那家長要告知為什麼要講你要告知你沒有告知的話保姆真的不知道怎麼應變家長很多人真的不告知因為怕人家沒要告你的孩子"},{"start":28927.153,"end":28949.785,"text":"所以在這部法律裡面為什麼要特別強調這個就是你沒有克折於他有告知的責任的話你就要靠靠到要斷氣了真的會怕死人啊還是說你有癲癇,你和保姆保姆沒準備,他也不知道我們的急救數裡面有包含癲癇嗎我們當保姆不是都要訓練嗎資格訓練裡面有包含癲癇怎麼處理嗎急救數有嗎"},{"start":28955.18,"end":28979.076,"text":"對不對啊所以只有告知的這個義務然後你的孩子真的有疑似有這個特殊的發展上的遲緩那當然要開一個這個研討那這個研討可能不是大家所界定的說這麼嚴謹的研討會那是但到底是要到大家家長要有責任進來這樣子所以我們強度"},{"start":28980.117,"end":29002.771,"text":"是講了家長的責任但強度也沒有這麼的高強度到要處分了但是我們這裡最核心我一開始就講了其實要請政府要提供資源來協助這個才是我們的重點兒童特殊需求政府提供資源進來才是重點"},{"start":29010.448,"end":29027.178,"text":"如果剛剛蘇芬委員這樣講的話我覺得1跟4的確家長很重要的責任反而要把它訂出來之後我覺得搭配法則2跟3真的沒有必要性否則你現在訂了1又覺得說法律上訂了1又不要做可是你知道"},{"start":29028.238,"end":29055.755,"text":"是坦白講對孩子的身心可能產生的傷害非常大如果不知道今天孩子有丙烯症或的他有氣喘或的有先天性心臟病這是過去實務狀況有發生過的這樣都不告知就發生事情的時候讓托孕中心或是保母呢疲於奔命那有時候如果能搶救回來當然OK如果沒有搶救回來的話事實上有可能孩子可能喪失性命我覺得那個嚴重性非常的大反而還有一個要不要"},{"start":29056.075,"end":29084.517,"text":"應該要給我費用結果他不給反正我覺得一跟四強度上要不要更強如果今天等一下保留的話我也覺得說一跟四我覺得衛福部要去考慮這個對孩子的安全性有嚴重的尤其是四那一呢事實上本來就應該繳費可是二三要不要強度到一我認為是應該是不需要到這樣否則訂了一個宣誓心意又講說一可是又做不到又沒有搭配罰則那就訂了也沒有什麼意義在以上"},{"start":29086.96,"end":29114.234,"text":"好 再請林淑媛我可以先提一下嗎這是這樣啦 因為原本議辦沒有這個條文當然兩位委員跟三位委員提出這個條文我不知道就是議辦原本在思考的時候為什麼沒有把這個條文納進來這個條文是原本沒有的嘛 對不對對啊 對那你們就必須要去跟委員說明清楚說為什麼當時沒有把這個條文"},{"start":29117.226,"end":29131.605,"text":"放在這次的草案裡面那現在兩個委員當然是站在比較比較針對兒童式法定代理人的相關實際應該去履行的義務特別再去把它規範出來嘛那我們在規範裡面的內容到底會不會為的不足還是怎麼樣這個可能"},{"start":29135.578,"end":29164.06,"text":"我是不是給各位一個五分鐘然後再溝通一下這樣好不好讓我講完啦你聽完啦你放心不然你要說再說我們的意思是說其實脫盟還有這些社團這些團體他為什麼要訂這樣的一個條文其實說雖然沒有法則但是專業的人員從業的人員其實可以根據這一個條然後利用這一個條文然後就跟家長說這個法律規定的你一定要來這樣子然後"},{"start":29165.481,"end":29184.814,"text":"有些家長就想 法律有規定的時候他就覺得好吧 那我就去吧其實有一種鼓勵的屬性 但也有一種其實就是讓讓這些第一線的人比較好說服家長來參加啦也有這樣子的狀況那至於說其他的強度要不要發責我是尊重大家但是就是說"},{"start":29186.015,"end":29207.06,"text":"這種事情原本想沒得到但屬於說第一線的人他們就是遇到這種困擾而我們知道了然後還不納進來還不一併放到這個托育服務法裡面來談的話我覺得才是真正的違德不足不是啊 因為你們的開宗明義叫做因履行下列義務"},{"start":29209.385,"end":29226.33,"text":"這個是你們把把這個英旅行預約券灌上去嘛現在就是針對當然你沒有寫罰則不過沒有寫罰則就在針對第幾款就已經大家意見相處到這種程度了嘛所以我才建議就是休息幾分鐘讓你們再去討論一下嘛是這樣嘛 好不好"},{"start":29806.636,"end":29810.879,"text":"好 我們繼續開會經過溝通 結果你知道我們大概原則上就是現在現場沒有總召召委 召委 抱歉 召委 抱歉你累了嗎來 請說明感謝召委"},{"start":29830.746,"end":29851.622,"text":"跟郭委員報告 剛才跟捷運委員說明初步看起來比較傾向於第一款和第四款對於家長要苛責的強度會比較高二三款的話比較有討論的空間沒有啦 第二款也要啦"},{"start":29852.843,"end":29880.943,"text":"對不起我講完就是說這幾個部分的話我們會根據這個強度的部分我們回去會把文字再做一個整理那可能在我們整理完再跟各位委員來做一個說明那剛才委員是建議說我們是不是就根據這樣的一個方向我們回去再做一個調文字再重新做一些整理啦好原則上就是保留啦好不好等他們文字修正完之後提供給提案委員做參考你們同意之後我們就"},{"start":29886.869,"end":29892.312,"text":"請說 請說"},{"start":29894.887,"end":29920.143,"text":"好我盡量再講一個啦就是說這個我們訂這個行政院沒有的這個條例其實有一個很重要的精神在於說讓家長在整個托育服務的關係當中我們不是一個服務去買一個服務而已我們家長的責任也不是一個消費者而已"},{"start":29920.663,"end":29945.199,"text":"其實讓家長在這個托育服務的關係當中有一個刻意他應盡的義務其實就是托育服務的主體三者的一環三個角色就是幼兒家長還有服務的提供者這樣子在這個關係裡面我們有應盡的義務不是只是一個服務的買賣或者買一個服務"},{"start":29950.843,"end":29976.863,"text":"他也是一个主体这样子那为什么这样立法是因为儿照法幼照法里面幼儿教育及照顾法的第41条里面有写哦父母或监护人应该履行下列义务第一一教保服务契约规定缴费二参加教保服务机构因其幼儿特殊需要所举办的个案研讨会或相关活动"},{"start":29978.303,"end":30005.695,"text":"三 參加教保服務機構所舉辦的親職活動四 告知幼兒特殊身心健康狀況必要時並提供相關健康狀況資料並與教保服務機構協力改善幼兒的身心狀況各級主管機關對有錢向第四款幼兒的父母或監護人應主動提供資源協助之這個是教育部"},{"start":30006.235,"end":30027.505,"text":"所主管的幼照法第41條完全幾乎都是一模一樣的架構和條文內容如果我們對比較大的孩子我們都克責於父母有這些應盡的義務而且這個主管機關有資源提供協助的這個責任"},{"start":30028.726,"end":30052.335,"text":"那我們在更小的小孩裡面不是更應該要有這樣的一個規範嗎但是我現在又講了就是說幼照法的體力也是一樣的狀況他們也是沒有沒有罰則基本上是宣示和鼓勵的意義所以如同我之前講過的讓服務的提供者可以好好的"},{"start":30054.016,"end":30070.574,"text":"根據這條法律跟家長說這是法律規定的喔法律規定你要來喔真的有家長聽到法律規定他會稍微意願會有高一點否則的話他覺得說你政府也不規定你叫我去我就不要去"},{"start":30072.645,"end":30098.179,"text":"你不是說我買一個服務我搞好你就都你的事不是我們不是消費者在整個幼兒托育裡面托育服務裡面家長不是一個買服務的消費者而已是這樣子我們要確立這個關係透過這個條文我們可以確認家長也是托育服務的三個主體之一"},{"start":30108.646,"end":30130.951,"text":"好 謝謝林淑穎委員再度的發言那基本上行政機關還是希望就保留嘛然後文字做一些相關的調整之後再呈給提案委員做參考好不好那我們再來做討論啦好那我這邊再另外做重新公告那剛剛也是原有陳培元首席的第八條林淑穎首席的第四條我們把它拉入在"},{"start":30131.571,"end":30148.072,"text":"整理在 不是整理 就納入在第四條嘛那文字上有做一些調整就是第四條是推服務 多增加政策兩個字啦就推服務政策自實施好 那我們就照這樣修正通過好 那接下來那是第二張喔"},{"start":30150.03,"end":30164.793,"text":"接下來委員王育民有所提第9條、第10條、第11條、第12條還有第13條請求保留,謝謝主席請求保留,好那他這4條就是我替他發言9、10、11、12、13就全部保留,謝謝那我們現在來處理第二張"},{"start":30175.812,"end":30194.248,"text":"張明厭煩是居家托育那其他的委員有想我就不再贅述了好不好張明沒意見張明沒意見那張明我們就依照行政院版本來通過好不好好有沒有其他意見沒有那就照厭煩來通過第二章居家托育那接下來是處理林署委員所提的第14條好"},{"start":30203.669,"end":30227.404,"text":"來 請 等一下 請行政機關先表示意見之後再請委員表達 齁 回應齁 來主席 因為只剩下半個小時我們還要繼續把第二張處理 也處理不完第一條可能也處理不完 這一條可能也處理不完我們要不要 你下一次再討論沒有 尊重各位的意見啦下次 我個人是在這裡"},{"start":30229.113,"end":30235.038,"text":"我是...但我知道你的意見...支持我們下次再繼續討論因為我們總共條文是78條啦那各位可能要...大家可能要算一下時間啦齁因為...這是沒辦法的事情我知道啦,現在就已經...跟他討論多久就討論多久了跟他在電視上嘛齁現在處理...不處理...處理...你...你..."},{"start":30254.073,"end":30263.424,"text":"你的兩條也十四十五嘛 好不好因為你的兩條時間可能也會漸不久啦因為會漸很久 所以我就說不然待會再拖下去這就要看你的地位啦 謝謝來 請行政司法院先回應 來"},{"start":30273.482,"end":30295.652,"text":"先說明林委員的版本第14條那針對這個部分是有直接明文的規定居家托育中心的一些應該辦理的事項那這個部分的話是現在行政版條文所並沒有特別去規範原則上這個部分我們這個如果要"},{"start":30296.312,"end":30323.292,"text":"有考慮到說現在各縣市它將來是居家托育中心是要受直轄市縣市政府的委託來從事相關工作那在這個部分去把它的應該要去服務工作的內容職長的內容有更明確的規範這個部分我們是可以支持那我們現在有建議有建議在文字上面可以去做一個簡單的調整那委員可以你有印出來嗎"},{"start":30330.147,"end":30340.656,"text":"我們有提供給委員的一個修正草案的版本應該是在那一疊的第四章第四章還是第五章"},{"start":30342.558,"end":30356.347,"text":"現在是還沒有列條次我們把文字宣讀一下居家托育服務中心應辦理下列四項第一款居家托育人員之招募、儲備、支持、交流、暫時訓練、輔導、監督、管理及檢查"},{"start":30359.289,"end":30386.716,"text":"第二款 受理居家托育服務證書申請變更及換發三 受理居家托育人員收托異動之通報四 托育服務媒合轉介協助簽訂托育書面契約五 處理第55條第一項之調處事項六 提供家長社區育兒諮詢及托育服務宣導七 其他配合中央及直轄市縣市住管機關交辦或委託有關居家托育服務事項"},{"start":30391.784,"end":30404.57,"text":"可以嗎 林委員可以對嘛 這個他基本上支持我們的是 是啊 是啊但是呢 我看不出來跟我們除了第二項以外前面差別在哪裡"},{"start":30406.209,"end":30424.859,"text":"你可不可以告訴我跟我們的版本第一項裡面哪裡這幾款有哪裡不一樣等一下你告訴我稍微有跟委員處理的稍微不一樣的地方第一個是第四款的部分我們當然文資做了一個部分就是那個協助簽訂托育書面契約文資有稍微做一點整理第二個是第五款"},{"start":30425.399,"end":30453.407,"text":"那這個我們是第一個是調次因為版本的不同也調次的不一樣另外一個是調處事項那最後一個是第七款我們文字稍微做了一點處理就是還是要以這個其他的部分還是要以有關居家托育服務的事項我們就做了一點證明那為什麼第二項沒有我覺得你這樣修正是可以接受的但調次上的變動到底是第幾條可能最後再來討論就第五款到底是第幾條"},{"start":30455.048,"end":30461.838,"text":"這個最後總的整理再來討論再來就是說這個順便契約這個是OK再來第七款就是其實我們討論過就是說要限縮在"},{"start":30466.676,"end":30486.156,"text":"地方政府要叫他們去配合的或委託的也是要限縮在跟居家托育服務事項有關的才可以才不會濫用那為什麼你們第二項就是我們的第二項前項執行業務處理原則等相關辦法由中央主管機關定制你們沒有放上來"},{"start":30489.296,"end":30513.416,"text":"各位說明我們現在我們初步的一個想法是說因為這個已經名列了有這樣正面的表列的期款那大概對於未來居托中心他應該去承擔的工作跟內容已經有相對已經比較明確的表述那第二個是因為他將來是要接受這個只要是縣市政府的一個公權力的委託"},{"start":30514.216,"end":30537.727,"text":"所以在這個委託的過程裡面也對於委託的做法也會在委託契約裡面也會有一個相關的規範所以我們就建議在行政的操作面就不再額外再去訂一個相關的事務處理原則的辦法這個是我們初步的一個想法跟我們說明他們不會有這個業務處理的原則的相關需求嗎"},{"start":30539.451,"end":30562.026,"text":"就是說做這些東西不會有一些原則上要遵循的嗎不用中央沒有不需要全國一致性的統一訂出一些處理原則嗎全部所有的事項通通都不用嗎或者是其實應該在我們的版本通過有需要的時候你就訂那不需要的時候你當然就不訂這樣子的話才不會說"},{"start":30567.16,"end":30591.047,"text":"對不對 因為全國要一致性嘛 是啊沒有錯沒有錯好 接下來請林業勤委員 執行的細節部分啦這些都是執行細節要怎麼處理那當然有一些處理原則啊來請林業勤委員 我這邊有疑慮的是其他配合中央及直轄市縣市政府交辦或委託事項假如要列這個"},{"start":30595.831,"end":30613.647,"text":"我覺得要講清楚說明白現在各縣市政府常常包山又包海的要做育兒指導又要做護苗計畫很多東西放進去如果只給一個內部的主管然後帶了即便給了工作人員重點事實上是"},{"start":30614.648,"end":30629.053,"text":"本來原來的業務裡邊他要去督的就已經很多事情又要再外加這個所以我不知道你這邊的意旨為何是說開放到這種程度嗎那我覺得那這樣子的話如果要放的話我覺得"},{"start":30629.853,"end":30655.586,"text":"所謂委員的後邊的第二項就非常重要有沒有一些第一個是原則甚至有些東西要不要去定義說你的所謂的托育服務的相關服務事項是什麼不過月子島也會講說跟托育服務運用保姆人員互苗計畫也算是像新北市就互苗計畫也算是那就真的又包了很多東西進去所以我就會比較擔心七這個"},{"start":30657.348,"end":30665.601,"text":"你增加的到底是什麼 有沒有否則如果要的話真的就要去配有第二項 去把它講清楚說明白 以上好 再請林總委員"},{"start":30671.692,"end":30689.538,"text":"現場為什麼要講這個要不要訂定這個處理原則的原因是因為在現場常見的有兩大問題的爭議比如說執行細節上要怎麼處理的時候都問說去訪視的時候可以拍照嗎"},{"start":30691.358,"end":30713.006,"text":"那可以拍照嗎那有的地方政府說可以有的說不可以那居福中心的人去到底是要拍照還不拍照那還有就是說你去看的時候要看的是托育的地點是客廳那訪視員可以查看浴室或廚房嗎那保姆主張說這是我的飲食權"},{"start":30714.426,"end":30725.895,"text":"那你怎麼辦就是說到底托育地的爭議或是托育的地你訪試員到底要看哪裡要不要訂一些準則"},{"start":30727.933,"end":30749.471,"text":"對不對我的意思是說這些原則處理原則因為都很細節看起來好像說要交給他們自行去處理就好了地方政府這個地方政府說你房子的時候可以看客廳可以看他的私人臥室還可以看廚房看浴室那另外一個政府說不用看不可以看因為保姆有隱私權那到底要看還是不看"},{"start":30751.212,"end":30779.752,"text":"那要拍照可以拍照嗎那看的時候可以拍保姆的廚房拍保姆的浴室拍保姆的臥室嗎所以還有一個判決就是訪員去查看除了托育範圍以外的空間還被告被告因為他說這個就不是我托育的空間你為什麼看到我的這個托育範圍之外的空間你如果還要拍照的話怎麼辦"},{"start":30781.57,"end":30804.47,"text":"所以執行業務的大的原則是中央主管機關一定要扛起這個到底業務處理的原則是什麼 全國一致性否則各縣市不同層也是蠻好笑的 蠻荒謬的所以我意思是說 你照我們的版本 照我的版本照托蒙的版本 把第二項放進去"},{"start":30805.851,"end":30812.356,"text":"然後你至少到時候需要的時候就是要訂出來不需要的我也沒有強迫你每一款都要訂啊"},{"start":30816.67,"end":30840.491,"text":"因為老實說我們坐在辦公桌上你也是坐在你的辦公桌上裡面你沒有很多第一線的托育人員不管是機構的事或是保姆來跟你反映我們的想像力沒有那麼豐富你怎麼會想像說訪員居托中心的訪員這樣去看 看一個托育範圍之外就被拒絕想也不要想到 事實就是有啊"},{"start":30847.797,"end":30872.306,"text":"放棄你啦我們用指引的方式這樣好不好沒有啦現在不是在說指引現在是你先在法律裡面要先把第二項我們的第二項脫蒙版本的第二項前項執行業務處理原則等相關辦法由中央主管機關定之我們是透過這個幾個文字授權給你們你們要訂什麼你們自己決定的啊"},{"start":30874.027,"end":30896.594,"text":"有一個行政指導在那裡讓這個制定一個處理原則出來這個也只是一個行政也可能是一個行政指導行政指導效力不足那你們的還有什麼原則委員"},{"start":30902.272,"end":30930.994,"text":"你們目前是用行政指導,但是我們現在用辦法啦像剛才現在要訪員,要訪哪裡授權給你們定職法,不要用行政指導啦根本報告下,就是如同剛才委員所提到的這些因為真的有很多是執行面上非常細節性的然後實務操作上有時候會遇到的所以他在列舉上面的時候"},{"start":30932.155,"end":30952.601,"text":"儘管我們在訂定的過程中在詳細的先去預先去設想有時候不見得能夠非常的完善那這邊其實是考慮到這個這個實際上面執行的部分我們還是會建議說是不是有可能容許這個由中央主管機關未來透過一個類似指引或者是"},{"start":30953.121,"end":30972.351,"text":"行政上的一個比較原則性的一個一個的文件來做相關的處理因為如果是訂成法規命令的時候一旦有需要增補的時候其實會面臨一個就是他依照法制作業程序的時候其實相對來說時間還比較耗時這也是你們法規命令的時候的自己可以去調整的"},{"start":30973.496,"end":30999.988,"text":"就是說我在這裡只是告訴你你們大的原則是你中央主管機關你去訂出來我沒有叫你訂到多細的細節我在這個條文裡面也沒有要求你要訂的多繁瑣多執行面要多細索沒有我們也是授權給你而你訂的大原則你訂的也是訂大原則或是你要訂到多執行細節多細節這也是你們在決定的"},{"start":31004.6,"end":31027.09,"text":"那我剛剛講說這兩大爭議一個就是拖浴地或者是拍照這個真的就是很大的爭議現場的所有的居府中心的人經常遇到的那可是這個會跟保姆的隱私權跟他的居家環境這個會衝突那如果涉及到人家的隱私權的話那當然要有法律的授權"},{"start":31028.17,"end":31048.834,"text":"而我在這裡給你授權給你去訂定你的執法那依此你們訂出來的執法才可以去做到這些動作因為你是法律保留原則我法律授權給你的而你訂出來是有法律依據的你去做這幾件事之後你叫我阻斷別人給你做啊因為我是法律"},{"start":31053.325,"end":31064.034,"text":"明文規定我依法律授權給我我訂出來的執法和法規所以某種程度也是法律授權了有法律授權的"},{"start":31065.819,"end":31083.943,"text":"才能夠到人家家裡說我要跟你拍照啊你一個行政指導說我要去人家家裡拍照人家要你幫忙有資格幫忙你去人家家裡拍照你的托育地請問現在有哪個法律允許你去人家家裡拍照現在有哪一個法律可以允許"},{"start":31092.816,"end":31117.471,"text":"居府中心的人可以去你家拍照所以難道不需要法律授權嗎要法律保留原則啊我們裡面會簽到我們內部的法規命令我們自己內部自己整合啦這樣就是基本上的文字第一項調整叫你們的第二項照我們的第一項照衛福部的第二項照你的是不是是這樣嗎"},{"start":31123.751,"end":31146.788,"text":"現在修嗎?麻煩依照剛才我跟委員報告的建議文字甄列第二項前項執行業務處理原則等相關辦法我們建議依照體力加一個逗點由中央主管機關定制以上"},{"start":31149.554,"end":31172.107,"text":"好 這個條文就照林淑文委員所提的條文再修正通過啦但是條次還是請你們因為裡面還有牽涉到處理第50條這個或許還是要再調啦前面一定有條文要整理那個是不是整個條文整個順完之後再去順條文我知道 那原則上是保留啦就把文字跟那個條次"},{"start":31174.718,"end":31195.084,"text":"是通過啦,調適的部分請你們來做處理啦但是裡面的五十幾條那個可能還是...調適就授權刑事單位來做調整啦,OK好,謝謝那就到這樣修正後通過接下來處理第15條也是林署委員所提第15條來,請衛福部表示意見"},{"start":31200.976,"end":31217.882,"text":"林委員的第15條的部分對於職家式縣市主管機關未來對於居家托育服務中心要進行的相關監督有要求檢查輔導還有評鑑等等尤其是要求要做相關的評鑑針對這個部分"},{"start":31221.924,"end":31236.843,"text":"因為我們在前面的條文已經提到未來對於這個居託中心的定位它等於是行政機關受託來行使相關的業務所以等同是行政機關執行公權力的一個延伸了"},{"start":31237.304,"end":31263.497,"text":"那一般對於這個等於是接近行政機關有公權力屬性的大概在監督的部分可能就比較少去用到所謂的這樣用到像評鑑這樣的一個機制大概等於比較會多比較多的監督方式就是類似行政機關中間上下級中間的一個直接監督跟督導的關係所以這個部分我們建議這個條文是不是可以就免於爭定謝謝"},{"start":31266.509,"end":31285.23,"text":"來 請聽回應他畢竟不是行政機關老實說大家都知道居托中心也有一些真的是良幼不齊居托中心不管是主管或是訪員或是督導員"},{"start":31286.932,"end":31302.068,"text":"他的內部管理難道你們不需要去介入嗎你們把公權力委託給他他要去評人家的保姆有沒有合格要去訪視那他們整個中心的"},{"start":31303.669,"end":31331.635,"text":"居托中心的這些管理的能力那他的訪員他的督導員的專業的能力他們自己內部行政管理的這個部分你難道不用稍微看一下嗎所以我們才說要監督這個居托中心的品質但是如果你不要這個評鑑的話我們其實不是要評鑑而是說你要有個機制去監督他的品質"},{"start":31336.171,"end":31356.447,"text":"不是嘴巴說你們會管理就好了我們不相信你們嘴巴講說你們會管理而他在對於居家托育這個保姆這一環居托中心扮演何等重要的角色他代替了政府去做這麼多的事情他的監督能力和品質難道不用被確認再確認嗎"},{"start":31358.949,"end":31377.59,"text":"所以如果你不想要用評鑑這種機制我覺得政府機構當然會覺得又要評鑑我還要去辦理評鑑 真煩但如果你不想要評鑑這種機制也沒關係我們不堅持一定要用評鑑這種制度可是你有辦法有什麼樣的機制"},{"start":31379.111,"end":31398.45,"text":"可以類似評鑑可以讓居托服務中心的人他們的內部願意好好的把他們的品質還有他們的這個能力專業真的是確定確保都是在我們所需要的這個一定的程度上"},{"start":31399.591,"end":31419.763,"text":"所以不要什麼事情都說啊這個地方政府的責任啊這個叫地方政府去做我我叫他們去做也要克責於說你有什麼機制要叫地方政府去執行我覺得現在從早上審到現在就覺得不愛做以外的說這交給地方政府去做就好這交給地方政府去做就好"},{"start":31426.487,"end":31430.116,"text":"嗯 其實我也不知道 我已經以前去說過 現在我也是有嘴講到沒話"},{"start":31433.156,"end":31454.625,"text":"好因為早上我就提過然後我因為今天早上蠻驚訝聽到說你們要完全由居家托育服務中心來執行公權力那我就很好奇是說那你的其他法律的強度上到底多強去針對於團體來"},{"start":31458.747,"end":31486.264,"text":"受你們委託那這個團體又是誰因為過去就是一直是兩落不齊的狀態裡面要執行公權力而且裡面的工作人員本來就讓人家在後來一直在放寬條件以前是幼教跟社工後來就一直放寬條件那裡面的人的訓練又是什麼那可是他以後要帶行你執行公權力我不知道你給他的公權力的強度有多強那所以"},{"start":31488.47,"end":31511.503,"text":"淑芬委員只是講說她貧賤還有我覺得我比較認同說她講說要檢查輔導因為如果你要執行公權力可能更強度不是只有貧賤現在坦白講只有貧賤你們平常事實上是不會有去監督管理這是一個那更往前的話如果要執行公權力我覺得這些可能要你們今天也要說明說那你們未來的這個所謂的如果以淑芬委員寫的是專業機構頓耗團體"},{"start":31516.346,"end":31544.104,"text":"那才是會符合你們講的公權力的去執行喔所以我就不知道如果沒有這一條的話我不知道我無法想像你們講的要執行公權力的這個單位跟人員到底能量如何以往過往坦白講居家推服務中心各縣市落差非常大有些是完全沒有機構啊所以他是拜託來的我既然拜託來的話我不太可能管他管他到時候他就不接了那啊不接的時候怎麼辦"},{"start":31545.445,"end":31567.207,"text":"所以呢我乾脆就還是他做得不太好我也是免於讓他去做可是影響的是誰的權益還是孩子的權益啊所以我想說是不是衛福部可以針對這部分做解釋除了剛剛淑芬委員提的那些要以外我還更覺得前面你到底那個機構到底你們怎麼去做選擇你們委託的時候怎麼做選擇以上主席我會再"},{"start":31571.311,"end":31587.343,"text":"主席不好意思我再補充一下這個食物面的問題然後再請這個社交署回答就是說我們都知道縣市政府包括縣市政府本身這個業務承辦員的流動承辦人員的異動性都很高"},{"start":31592.728,"end":31613.038,"text":"地方政府的基層人員的異動性流動性本身就很高所以這些人一個換一個他除了沒有經驗以外連專業性都要打問號所以你說地方政府的這些人他們誰能夠好好的監督居托中心的運作啊"},{"start":31613.598,"end":31638.891,"text":"一個外星人又換一個人來連地方政府的人都一直在流動然後你仰賴他們去把關起這個責任然後就說這個居州中心要去做那個富有公權力的使命和權力的這個工作然後可是監督居州中心的這一個縣市城辦他又是新來的新手什麼都不知道"},{"start":31639.711,"end":31655.905,"text":"很荒謬而且各地方政府對居托服務中心的管理如果沒有一致的標準你中央我們第三項講說他的監督啊檢查輔導啊評鑑賦評啊中央要訂出相關的遵循事項和辦法"},{"start":31656.906,"end":31683.889,"text":"如果你不願意扛起這個責任地方政府對居家托育服務中心的管理各自做各自的會很麻煩甚至有些地方政府說比較難聽因為事件發生的時候或者是說有一些比較高明的狀況的時候大家都知道會不會有一種不是吃案啦就類似有些縣市政府會不會有壓力所以會阻止居托中心去做脆弱家庭的這個通報"},{"start":31688.256,"end":31706.4,"text":"這個 這個是如果發生了一件的話 事情也是很大條的那有些地方政府 如果他說我們就沒有苛責於居多中心做催加的通報他就不用做了 他就沒規定啊 他就沒規定啊"},{"start":31707.884,"end":31729.732,"text":"所以我們才說中央其實對於居托中心他的業務職長職責要明定以外然後現在對於居托中心他本身這個中心你要監督他檢查他輔導他評鑑他然後這個要評鑑他們要的輔導他們要監督他們要遵循什麼事情"},{"start":31730.672,"end":31751.105,"text":"中央要定出這一些遵循事項的辦法來讓地方政府,而不是讓地方政府各自為政然後有壓力的他們就說我們有一些不要定出來不要定出來好像這個掩耳盜鈴一樣沒有定出來就不用做,不用做的話就不關我們的事這事情也很大條的所以其實是"},{"start":31757.836,"end":31782.423,"text":"我並不是說要找中央麻煩 而是這件事情本來就不是一個容易的事啦我們知道全部的這些責任要扛起來真的也是很沉重可是既然要法制面 要立一個專法今天就是已經說我要破釜沉舟宣誓國家重視托育"},{"start":31783.623,"end":31799.5,"text":"這個托育服務這件事情了那麼你要訂出一些相關的辦法出來讓地方政府遵循全國一致性然後扛起這個責任然後確保這些居家居府中心的這個品質和專業"},{"start":31802.763,"end":31818.844,"text":"這個就是必要的啦 必要的 並不是我一定要一直每天都叫你們做 每天都叫你們做這就沒辦法了 既然要做了 就是要這樣做比較是正確的 不是說找你麻煩啦 真的"},{"start":31821.006,"end":31848.108,"text":"行政機關應該也不會認為委員去找麻煩現在就是說要訂一套新的制度台灣的社會對這事情大家都非常的關注希望也是一個長治久安的制度當然法律的各個條文的面向都要兼顧到去思考也要去考量到法律訂之後是不是可以執行貫徹到位這是最重要的一個立法的精神"},{"start":31849.469,"end":31877.891,"text":"那我想這個是增列的條文啦那相關如果如果你們覺得還有討論空間現在沒辦法直接討論那我們就先保留 好不好好 OK 好好 那好啦我們開會是到五點半好 還是盡量跟你講嘛我們開會是到五點半嘛然後各位委員OK啦沒有要"},{"start":31879.09,"end":31897.243,"text":"沒有啦,好,謝謝我就告一段落啦,現在就到這裡告一段落啦不過是要尊重各位的意見嘛,對不對對啦,對啦你就沒聲,你又說,好對啊,就沒聲再來,那我們就做以下決議兒童推育服務法草案等二十案尚未審查完略我們要令擇期繼續審查"},{"start":31898.604,"end":31923.858,"text":"那我要宣布在上面之前我還是拜託部長還有次長還有我們代理署長我覺得因為後面還有將近六十多條的條文然後二十個版本嘛如果可以事先進行先溝通也許有的是跟院版就是不盡相容的還是說再增列的你們有意見我覺得應該是去找個別提案委員先進行溝通啦好不好"},{"start":31925.564,"end":31932.214,"text":"要不要聽這位來處理,這就是這樣嘛,好不好好,本部會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162435","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162435","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9cd9472e30d860cb9465e86193f4d4ac47ecf2f83f27aab3baf890c8298699f945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:43:48 - 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麻煩部長有請部長"},{"start":12.388,"end":32.222,"text":"部長早,有好幾個訊息我想我把握時間盡快詢問,也希望在不影響國家安全、不影響保密的規定下,我們盡量透明的讓民眾了解。第一個,我看到一個很荒謬的現象,全世界台灣大概是網路攻擊受害的第一名,每年都第一名。"},{"start":33.183,"end":56.032,"text":"每一天平時根據國安局的報告就有240萬次的網路攻擊主要的來源不管是透過VPN 透過跳板大概跟中國都脫不了干系中國還有戰略支援部隊他們的總部在上海以及其他地方結果他們現在把我們的支通電軍他公佈了一個20名"},{"start":58.613,"end":85.115,"text":"那這個資料我贊成國防部你不用去跟他講是或不是就讓他們亂猜他現在今天最新的消息是國台辦竟然這標準的做大賊到處喊抓賊說什麼廣州一家資安公司被駭客現在他們準備把台灣的知通電軍這20個人納入重點監管範圍第一個國防部的態度以及我們有沒有反制的做法"},{"start":87.707,"end":97.66,"text":"我想我們國安部的態度當然就是認為是說真正在做這些妄害的,我想第一個還要先說明的,真正妄害的這個"},{"start":99.389,"end":120.801,"text":"全世界都公認的是中國在進行這樣的妄害是最多那我們的中間核心任務還是要維護這個國境的資訊確保網路的安全那相關的這些剛剛因為幾個委員都聽到了我們防範的部分現在就是說既然是"},{"start":123.636,"end":149.463,"text":"這個四重情報機關嘛那所以我們對四重情報機關在勤工法的規範之下我們來建立相關的這些保護安全管控跟這些機制保護重要他們的司法管轄權不及於我們跟世界各地也是事實但現在中國是進行所謂的法理長臂管轄的法理戰所以對於你看上次主張武統武統是什麼意思啊"},{"start":150.661,"end":174.479,"text":"贊成解放軍來殺我們的軍人來攻擊我們的國家上次那個中國籍配偶雅雅因為贊成武統現在被遣返回去她昨天也在那邊發布說這20個自動電軍要抓起來神祭儀法這擺明了土匪我們在國軍保護自己的國家是正正當當的國家的軍隊"},{"start":175.58,"end":204.555,"text":"他們現在想要侵略我們的國家想要消滅我們的國家用法律的概念說要通緝某個將領要抓某個軍人資料內容未必為真但他用這種態度要展現殘弊管轄對他們相關的人負荷的人國安部有沒有考慮採取法律動作你將來要再入境台灣你這種恐嚇國軍主張把國軍要讓中共來懲治啦 研辦啦"},{"start":206.099,"end":225.09,"text":"這樣子的行為我認為法律戰還是要用法律為之我不知道部長你是法律人這事應該怎麼辦我想中國對我們進行所謂的心理戰、認知戰跟這個輿論戰這個是每天都在進行的而且相當綿密的然後來這個"},{"start":227.991,"end":253.63,"text":"結合這個我們在地的協力者來進行這樣的一個作為那所以我想我們對這個法律戰的一個認知是我們從來不認為他可以管轄到我們這一點在國際上我們要清楚的說明這也就是說明我們像現在"},{"start":255.465,"end":282.312,"text":"好像王委員也被列入了我列入好多次了本來還覺得蠻高興的現在已經那麼興奮了那所以像這樣子的我認為這種新的任之戰的作為程度是比較高這一題我先在這邊打住啦就是說我建議國安部去尤其用法律思考一下這種附和來恐嚇我們國軍的我們在中華民國的司法體系告他你以後再入境辦他"},{"start":284.517,"end":301.557,"text":"這個東西就是我們國家有司法主權我們國家的國軍是憲法的部隊不能讓這些土匪的行徑來威脅我們第二個題目要請教的是F5F5要除役了那F5其實對我們中華民國空軍來講是很有感情的"},{"start":302.678,"end":326.03,"text":"一架飛機從1965年11月28號第一架F-5A呢美國用援助的方式提供給我們第一架到現在服役超過50年我們空軍最多的時候擁有423架其中國產的就有336架1973年從諾斯洛普那邊得到技術在台灣生產到1986年生產了308架等等那"},{"start":331.292,"end":350.259,"text":"這一個過程F5可以說是捍衛我國領空是一個相當有超過50年我相信在場的飛官我們的教官們步訊機大概都飛過這一架過去的大漠計畫我們援助越南F5都看到影子一架飛機的廚藝"},{"start":352.659,"end":376.078,"text":"有很多舉辦的方式我不知道現在國防部這個廚藝我聽說六月底要廚藝了這個廚藝的規模是在中隊連隊還是大隊辦一辦有沒有什麼特殊的儀式或紀念式的活動我的了解應該是會在7月4號吧花蓮基地來進行這樣的一個一個廚藝的一個典禮這樣子"},{"start":378.4,"end":406.014,"text":"我給你看法國這影片看的參考就好法國的這一個他的幻象1廚藝典禮他會拍一個日本也會他們的幽靈式戰機在廚藝的時候第一個會有一個影片然後第二個在地上的分裂式或怎樣來尊榮這個老兵保護我們的領空他退伍了這一個廚藝的動作我真的建議空軍或者我們國防部可以"},{"start":408.444,"end":433.815,"text":"更具備紀念性的也讓他想起我們的領空在這麼多空軍艦兒也很多人付出生命的代價捍衛著他而F5伴隨著我們超過50年的時間這個儀式不可以潦草舉辦如果7月4號要辦呢時間很迫近我真的建議可以好好來舉辦一個F5的除疫活動這個是給部長的建議你們目前有什麼樣的規劃現在"},{"start":439.487,"end":464.675,"text":"我想我們應該會做一個紀念影片會參與其他國家做法來製作具有這樣傳承跟紀念意義的一個影像讓國人一同來見證這個榮耀那典禮的這個規劃的這個部分我想我們現在還在進行當中好 我們希望如果到時候可以的話我們國防委員會也可以受到邀請去見證"},{"start":465.735,"end":478.864,"text":"如果不方便沒關係因為這先到人力物力跟你們勤務的時間這不勉強那接下來我這個建議那個部長國軍內部管理工作叫飯我們以往還沒有正式我們6月20號2019年6月20號有一個修訂版"},{"start":482.806,"end":496.513,"text":"規定是志願役就職業軍人6點出營第二天早上7點半要入營那其實以前沒有這個叫飯的時候呢那個原來的規定默契是早上的"},{"start":499.014,"end":517.406,"text":"下午的五點半離營然後早上的八點進入營區啦原來的規定比較人性化是第一方面志願役軍人他的家庭大概都在當地所以不管是孩子的上下學家庭的生活作息原來的朝八下午五點半"},{"start":518.266,"end":537.451,"text":"比較接近我們現在是早上呢7點半以前就要露營然後晚上到6點才能離營這個跟上班作息時間會有點落差我們原來戰備期間根本就沒有什麼休假了但在平時平時的時候如果可以有更有"},{"start":538.231,"end":549.65,"text":"符合生活特性更人性化的管理其實這個對志願役的軍官士兵來講是一個可以做得到的事情我不知道部長怎麼看這個事情這不是大事但是應該做得到"},{"start":552.069,"end":566.919,"text":"這個部分我覺得我們還是要考量操課前後的相關訓練的準備的所需要的工作跟時間如果下午是5點半可以離營,早上8點就上班時間才露營,會影響到操課嗎?"},{"start":568.84,"end":587.395,"text":"因為現在操課的時間就是會到下午的這個如果下午來講會到6點不過我們如果委員關心的話是針對特殊的個案我們經過這個邊界上校主管的核定可以來做一個調整"},{"start":588.035,"end":604.822,"text":"所以他是可以個案調整的就是針對一些特殊的個案部長是不是這樣就是說在有操課班表的需求的值班的本來就要值班的這個按照這一個那對於沒有這樣的特性的話這個上班時間我沒有說一定要怎麼樣讓部長去考量"},{"start":607.083,"end":625.617,"text":"就是讓我們的志願役的軍官士官士兵們在上下班上能夠比較接近家庭生活作息我做這樣的建議讓部長去做參酌下一件事情給部長我覺得國防醫學院要解釋一下小事但這都作業上的不嚴謹"},{"start":628.172,"end":641.496,"text":"國防醫學院的醫學級戰傷救護嚴錫銀這個很好提高全民韌性報名的開始時間是6月10號報名截止是6月3號部長有沒有看出他的問題網站上報名時間是6月10號開始然後想要報名的人在6月3號就收到說我們已經報名額滿了那國防醫學院在幹什麼 這內定的喔"},{"start":657.479,"end":680.594,"text":"這就是國防醫學院說明你告訴我這是什麼原因是 鮑委員 這個應該是內部作業沒有 這公告喔 你們的公告喔我6月10號開始接受報名然後呢 網路上的作業已經通知要報名說我們6月3號已經額滿了你們是有內定名額是不是鮑委員沒有那沒有 你告訴我 6月3號學院哪裡來的"},{"start":682.865,"end":710.194,"text":"那這個我們下去會再你現在手上有沒有報名的名單你現在手上如果已經有報名的名單今天是6月11吧6月11嘛那你們那個就做假的啊要不然現在手上怎麼會有報名單理論上是昨天開始接受報名然後你們6月3號就跟人家講額滿了然後你現在手上已經有報名額滿的名單了啊這不是內定什麼是內定小事但從小看大你們如果這樣作業的話"},{"start":711.354,"end":735.165,"text":"每件公文我都要開始懷疑每個作業時程你們答應的節點我也開始懷疑國防醫學院哪一個最科學的啊怎麼會發生這種事你知道你們上次也一樣這樣的事情你們上次報名類似的營隊也發生過一次我那一次議題太多沒有問你沒想到現在又來一次你們是內部的子女很樂於報名這個還是怎樣"},{"start":737.736,"end":764.551,"text":"謝謝委員指導 我想我一定會要求光宇軒來做一個充分的說明好 時間關係 我謝謝那個我們後備 因為後備旅較糟的費用物品費三月都沒有了 很多人帶電不過這部分你們已經解決了那個是你們在人事跟物品費的項目的編列數額有一個落差 那解決就好那我也謝謝你們 昨天跟你們反映你們今天開始要作業處理這個事情不要讓基層的官兵"},{"start":765.574,"end":766.92,"text":"帶電費用啦 這個事情不要再發生了好 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我簡單講目前法院組織法原則公開審理 例外不公開審理請問例外不公開審理的要件是怎麼設定的非常的抽象為什麼非常的抽象我們交給法官在具體的個案當中加以裁量那針對我們所提出來的草案我當天問副秘書長說架設一個法庭這樣子一個波要多少錢一百九十幾萬"},{"start":219.741,"end":240.282,"text":"我們的最高法院一年行言之辯論的有多少案子我國的最高法院一年行言之辯論有多少案子我跟大家報告啊不到十件不到十件包括大法庭包括民事訴訟包括刑事訴訟一年不到十件"},{"start":242.39,"end":257.436,"text":"設一個法庭的設備他說一百九十幾萬我算兩百萬轉播要錢我也把它加進去司法院回去打一打算盤啊你們當初在推人民參與審判的時候你們光廣告費花多少錢真的在推人民直接參與審判光廣告費花多少錢"},{"start":265.083,"end":281.754,"text":"一本一本交給民視一年都幾千萬幾千萬在執行的怎麼會沒有錢很有錢啊現在有人在法在國會裡面造謠說要好幾百億我的老天啊這個是造謠還是問政啊"},{"start":284.585,"end":309.756,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團我們提出的案子法律省的部分我們參佐了司法院當初所提出來的初稿原則公開 例外不公開那為什麼例外不公開就是大家擔心了嘛有涉及到國家安全嘛會造成個人生命身體隱私嘛會妨礙營業秘密嘛這個時候就不要公開啊我把決定的權限交給誰交給法官啊交給法官啊"},{"start":313.346,"end":321.372,"text":"現在好像討論到每一個法律省的案件一定會牽涉到事實一定會牽涉到個人的隱私我必須要老實講在討論問題的時候這不是一個負責任的態度我為什麼這樣講我自己當過被告我也當過證人"},{"start":338.786,"end":361.227,"text":"我希望法庭能夠公開是什麼在法庭活動當中應該要受到公眾監督的法官跟檢察官是什麼在行使職權的當然不是所有的案子社會矚目的案子才會發生這樣的事情我不管在當被告或在當檢察官的時候我非常驚訝的是什麼"},{"start":362.304,"end":384.906,"text":"非常驚訝的是說我們刑事訴訟不是改採當事人改良式的當事人進行主義以檢察官在法庭上面的論告提證他必須要負舉證責任證明我有罪但是我自己法庭活動的經驗是什麼我因為集會遊行法的案子被起訴過接受審判過我也去當過證人"},{"start":386.67,"end":394.912,"text":"我去當證人的時候 我當庭作證說那個極有法的案子的主謀根本不是現在這個被告 主謀是我主謀是我"},{"start":397.438,"end":425.848,"text":"結果發生什麼事聽完我的證詞了以後檢察官應該要趕快起來辯駁啊說不對不對證人你虛偽陳述你講的不對結果那法官問說請問檢察官有沒有什麼意見要補充因為辯護人傳我嘛他們主結問檢察官要反對結問嘛結果檢察官站起來我沒有任何問題那他如果沒有任何問題的話那代表你們當初起訴就起訴錯人了嘛"},{"start":426.963,"end":454.517,"text":"最後進行補充結問的是誰是法官跳下來補充結問這是我當證人的經驗我當被告的經驗一模一樣我當被告的經驗一模一樣那你說會侵害到什麼隱私我老實講我不知道侵害到什麼隱私但我必須要說有沒有案子會涉及到個人的隱私婦女權益的保護兒少的保護當然很重要全部把它排除在外嘛"},{"start":455.646,"end":480.033,"text":"我沒有寫一個剛性的法條喔說這一定要直播 沒有我們為什麼要權衡公眾的利益為什麼要權衡隱私權的保護為什麼要權衡最後的營業秘密我把權力都交給法官了耶讓法官在個案當中去裁量目前要不要行公開審理有誰裁量 有法官裁量在卷證資料裡面"},{"start":482.285,"end":507.43,"text":"當事人公開的部分 就有關於卷證資料要不要限制或是禁止他閱覽特定部分誰裁量 法官裁量 刑事訴訟 民事訴訟全部都是做這樣子的規範我們為什麼做這樣子條文的設計 理由在這裡如果各位先進覺得說相較於目前法院組織法 針對不公開審理我們的要件太抽象"},{"start":508.979,"end":531.48,"text":"相對於我們目前卷證不公開我們設定的要件太抽象我們敞開心胸跟各界請教歡迎大家提出具體的修正建議這也是那天司法院到黨團來我希望跟他們交換建議的結果司法院來就是他沒有要跟我討論法條因為從法律審到事實審司法院全面反對"},{"start":532.541,"end":560.399,"text":"司法院全面反對主席站起來 抱歉 我很快把他帶完因為今天我的PPT我要列在會議記錄當中我帶大家看這個是台灣人民對於法庭公開支持度超過七成五支持超過七成五支持大概兩成五反對的我相信裡面很多法律人這我都尊重這我都尊重台灣民眾黨的支持者比例最高96%"},{"start":562.618,"end":579.723,"text":"國民黨84%笑得很高興的莊銳雄委員你們民進黨的支持者73%你如果覺得我做了這個民調不對沒有關係歡迎大家貢獻勞力時間費用一起出錢來做民調問問看台灣人民大家想要什麼"},{"start":581.028,"end":600.2,"text":"結果我們推這個以後有檢察官團體說什麼說唯一推動法庭直播的就是中華人民共和國我老實講建清檢凱裡面很多檢察官我認識我基本上還蠻尊重他們的法律專業但我沒有想到會LOW到用抹紅的方式來進行公共政策的討論"},{"start":601.28,"end":627.53,"text":"用抹紅的方式來進行公共政策的討論這是不負責任的政客才會幹的事情我們的檢改團體怎麼會做這種事呢所以呢他們跟我聯絡了以後我就說怎麼會有這種低級又無恥的討論方式結果建清檢改的檢察官說欸學長你不要介意啊這不是我們講的啊這是媒體自己下標啊一條龍的操作配合得非常好"},{"start":628.77,"end":656.589,"text":"原來推動法庭直播也要被抹紅那我們來看一下這個是我剛才大家看過的這是英國最高法院這個是什麼這是英國上訴法院都是法律省啊他們走的比美國還前面走的比美國還前面所以現在英國是什麼英國也跟中華人民共和國看齊嗎英國最高法院 英國上訴法院都要被抹紅嗎"},{"start":658.308,"end":685.015,"text":"加州法院法庭直播的規定維吉尼亞州州法法庭直播的規定到今年2025年美國聯邦國會議員繼續推出什麼Sunshine in the courtroom法庭陽光法案大家討論的隱私權的保護他們裡面有沒有規範 有啊那授權法院去做啊你擔心證人臉被認出來那你就把他臉遮蔽啊"},{"start":686.974,"end":707.959,"text":"大家如果有參加過法庭活動都知道我們法庭直播的時候像我每次去公開法庭我看得到證人的臉我看不到我看得到他的後腦勺如果連看他的後腦勺都有疑慮的話那沒有關係啊把他後腦勺給mark起來這些都是司法院在具體在進行操作的時候怎麼樣針對隱私權怎麼樣針對營業秘密做細緻的保護"},{"start":713.866,"end":726.288,"text":"最後其實法庭直播在我國有發生過啊2000年蘇建河岸高等法院開庭更審的時候全程轉播他全程轉播在外面還放一個電視牆"},{"start":728.65,"end":750.529,"text":"記者進不去這我同意記者進不去因為你不知道記者攝影大哥的鏡頭會take什麼他搞不好一直take那個法官的臉一直take那個檢察官的臉讓那個法官跟檢察官遭受到重大的心理壓力這樣不好所以他就完全統一一個鏡頭就是法院裡面所take的鏡頭怎麼取緝"},{"start":751.95,"end":778.206,"text":"讓我們的法院決定訊號搬到外面來連接一台電視機這台電視機大家有沒有看到一群攝影大哥在電視機前面看那個司法院自己直播的四十省這不是法律省喔四十省電視的轉播然後用攝影機在那邊拍那個電視然後出來了中華電視公司在我國有做過四十省的直播出了什麼事發生了什麼事"},{"start":782.299,"end":809.752,"text":"誰的隱私被侵害我必須要說在具體個案的操作上更細膩的去保護人民的隱私權不願意不願意出現的這個我們都同意現實上也都可以操作但是在推動這個立法方向我完全沒有辦法贊成司法院現在連法律省都說回去了他不是只有事實省不肯"},{"start":811.213,"end":837.475,"text":"連法律省都說回去法律省負擔有很重嗎我再跟大家講一次我國最高法院目前行延遲辯論的案子一年有幾件十件都沒有十件都沒有讓大家聽聽嘛聽聽我們的法官跟辯護人在交換意見的時候到底是在協同發現真實發現法律還是有上對下教訓的方式怒斥"},{"start":839.505,"end":847.637,"text":"下面的當事人跟辯護人這個本來就是人民在參與審判的過程當中一個非常重要的民主前途"}]}},{"id":"162432","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162432","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c99b0f26083c87904e465e86193f4d4ac47ecf2f83f27aab3b77c192756c22988b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:32:52 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還有買了多少作戰的需求是什麼還有要買多少的彈藥呢 還是資源的夾艙呢然後彈藥夾艙要買多少呢 籌備後能夠這整個符合多少的作戰的效應"},{"start":66.398,"end":72.881,"text":"因為當初這些是連最基本的內容都沒有在整個預算書裡面所以但是本席從你們今天送來的解凍案中似乎還是依舊沒有看到整個的說明的內容因為這一項的籌購案是一個總額高達428億的跨年度的預算明年度的預算就在9月份就會送到立法院來審查"},{"start":91.35,"end":108.003,"text":"預計大約編列了32億的預算那是不是也是一樣買什麼和買多少都不知道呢反正是不是國防部的預算凍結不得 刪減也不得呢還是就會被說成中共同路人呢難道這是國防部在面對預算審查的態度嗎可否請部長簡單的說明一下"},{"start":113.17,"end":132.334,"text":"委員好我是空軍事務部參謀長跟委員回報我們在F16的案子這個部分包含作戰甲艙跟武器的部分都是列在機密預算裡面那並沒有轉成公務預算那公務預算的部分可能是前面的一些作業費的部分那這個部分我們一直都是列在機密預算裡面跟委員做個報告所以今天不是他已經公開了嗎可以公開預算可以公開"},{"start":142.592,"end":164.344,"text":"機密預算的部分目前沒有公開的部分不是不是 這個在114年度的時候它這個是已經變成是可以變成轉成公開的預算嗎目前了解的是沒有轉成公開預算的部分從機密 就是夾艙的部分還有我們武器彈藥的部分這個部分是沒有轉成公開預算的部分"},{"start":164.824,"end":170.286,"text":"好 那沒關係那我再接下來部長你看一下美國同意對外軍售的時候會公佈在美國安和局的這個網站上面所以本席也請助理花了很多時間過濾美國的安和局最近幾年對台軍售的項目裡面就有關F16V作戰資源的夾艙的內容就是剛才所說的那部長你看一下螢幕的內容過濾之後可以發現其實沒有幾項啊"},{"start":192.253,"end":196.778,"text":"如果再根據對應的構型來整個我們來篩選一下那其實具體這些軍購案是哪一項其實我們看得非常的清楚啊所以我想再看一下下一個圖表這個是美國安和局宣布同意對台灣軍售的新聞稿數量"},{"start":209.993,"end":216.119,"text":"還有跟整個的項目都是清清楚楚的如果美方資訊揭露都那麼完整那是否表示對美國來說這些軍售案根本就已經沒有機密的問題了那國防部的年度預算書或解凍報告裡面是不是也應該相對的要有基本的資訊的揭露呢"},{"start":233.01,"end":258.742,"text":"委員好,我是站會司司長,向委員報告我們這個軍售案的那個制度,一向都是在美方知會國會之前我們會列為機密,是避免遭遇到干擾那EBISODE WE BLOCK 拐動它的彈藥跟作戰甲槍的部分在美方知會國會之後,我們就開始進入改列公開的這個動作所以目前這個預算改列公開,是因為美方已經知會國會了"},{"start":262.799,"end":277.737,"text":"那他們都可以公開了那個相關的項目彈藥的這個部分跟委員報告他主要是F-16VBlock拐動他使用的四型彈藥跟他使用的您看到的這個作戰甲艙的這個部分"},{"start":280.347,"end":292.491,"text":"所以我們再來看一下其實國防部各個軍種其實關於年度預算資訊揭露的完整性這本期真的是要跟部長提到一下就提到我看一下那個陸軍的預算的資訊揭露就是非常的完整我們來訪觀一下我們海馬4的多管的火箭還有托式飛彈到M1A2的戰車這個整個作戰的需求要買多少"},{"start":303.735,"end":306.937,"text":"還有要買什麼還有我們美方交付的多少預算書裡面都是清清楚楚的那為什麼陸軍都做得到海軍跟空軍都做不到呢那這問題是不是請部長要多加強海軍空軍的督導啊而且還要提醒一下部長"},{"start":320.768,"end":327.873,"text":"只要預算不涉及機密本來就應該要公開資訊的根據預算法裡面規定國防部就有責任還有義務要向我們全體的立法委員說清楚去年我們立法院預算中心的預算評估報告裡面也有提出整個警告針對國防部對美國的軍購案有很多項目都沒有按照主計總署要求預算編列的規定寫清楚所以部長"},{"start":347.805,"end":375.572,"text":"希望國防部在下會期送來的立法院審查115年度的預算書裡面至少軍購案裡面的主要的籌購的品項還有各品項籌購的數量還有分年度預算籌貨品項及數量這三項的內容務必要基本的資訊揭露讓我們立法院大家看預算書的時候可以清清楚楚的一目了然這樣部長國防部可以做嗎 做得到嗎"},{"start":377.172,"end":394.599,"text":"我們原本在美方智慧國會之後它的各個相關的項目一定會按照預算書表裡面詳細的去陳列至於委員提到有關於海空軍的部分寫得不夠詳細的話我們會回去重新檢視一下是不是有相關疏漏的部分或是因為"},{"start":395.319,"end":418.485,"text":"他當初知會國會的時間剛好是在預算書送達立法院之後也就是解密的時間這個預算書表已經在立法院了所以他之前是機密但是後面知會國會的時間已經進入到裡面我們是後面才進行解密的動作所以可能會產生資訊的落差這一點我們會去做改善"},{"start":419.394,"end":424,"text":"好那今天時間也不多啦所以這個我想國安部還是要改善好那接下來我再詢問部長關於F16V的戰機延遲交付的問題就請問一開始的時候這個計畫是2023年的時候應該要交付4架但是因為新冠肺炎嘛"},{"start":437.538,"end":459.377,"text":"還有俄烏戰爭影響改成去年2024年才開始交付但是整年還是沒有交付所以好不容易今年2025年3月我們第一架F16終於出場了但是最近又看到媒體在報導說今年只能交付六架那我想請教一下部長就是根據國防部掌握的資訊就是美國今年究竟預計能交付幾架F16戰機呢給台灣呢"},{"start":462.64,"end":465.782,"text":"全案是不是會一樣維持整個明年2026年會完成整個交付的計畫呢還有國防部現在目前掌握的資訊造成進一步延遲交付的原因到底有哪些呢美國應該是不會毫無理由的故意拖延的吧國防部應該有持續跟美方保持密切溝通吧"},{"start":486.076,"end":504.074,"text":"委員好這邊繼續跟委員做個報告這個延遲的原因就如同陳儒這個委員剛剛一開始提到的這個在後疫情時代這個整個供應鏈有慢慢在恢復的這個狀況那恢復不如預期那第二個就是國際局勢的這個變化非常大還有一個很重要的關鍵因素是我們這個整個系統"},{"start":505.695,"end":534.329,"text":"都是非常先進很多在美軍跟我們來講都是第一次做一個系統的整合所以在整合上的風險都非常的高那我們每一次每個月的專案會議都有督促美方也都了解到進度我們也有定期不定期的訪場了解整個專案的進度美方在組裝線上也有增加人力跟組裝站的作為目前我們最後一次就在上個月的專案會議裡面"},{"start":535.43,"end":552.882,"text":"也都非常的樂觀看待明年底能夠如期的交付那今年媒體報導的這個六價我們從來沒有看過這個數字那在美方的評估今年交機就是產權轉移十價以上這個是非常樂觀那以上跟委員報告"},{"start":554.244,"end":568.116,"text":"好那我之後再因為時間到了再問一個問題就是今天部長有說網路站加擠已經開始實施那目前的增幅的幅度增加的幅度到底有多少呢還有第二波加擠的時候是何時可以實施呢"},{"start":570.084,"end":586.216,"text":"第一波的網路站佳績的部分,它這個網路站的佳績其實是蠻複雜的,它有分成專精二級、專精一級、精英二級、精英一級跟專家級,這個是我們,它本身就是一個很複雜的一個"},{"start":587.978,"end":605.897,"text":"一個他需要取得相關的一些證照等等的然後還有一些戰國的評估所以我們本身就是一個很複雜的一個網路站加擠那戰狼館加擠跟電車加擠現在已經在行政院在審議當中所以第二波加擠何時實施還不知道"},{"start":609.372,"end":627.304,"text":"暫安館的勤務加急跟電政的加急,我們當然就期待行政院能夠加速審議所以現在還沒有嗎?對不對?還在研議中嗎?還是審議中?就應該是在院裡面吧OK,好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c95051616f3af7299e465e86193f4d4ac4f3738a47179c06525b2e05361ecac97e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:34:18 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羅委員好部長好 部長 繼這個今年的三月之後呢中國在今年的六月初呢 又電民通緝我國資通電軍指揮部二十名的成員呢來做這個發布宣傳的這個通告"},{"start":25.191,"end":36.316,"text":"然後呢指控他們涉嫌從事對中國軍政系統的這個網路的攻擊而且呢每一個人是以萬元人民幣的獻上來鼓勵這個民眾來做這個舉報而且呢還公布了我們這20位成員的這個大頭照啦姓名還有這個身份證字我想請問部長我們國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":48.482,"end":53.206,"text":"因為這些資訊畢竟還是屬於個資那中國是如何得知我們這20位資通電軍的這個成員的這個資料請問部長我們是不是請中電軍先"},{"start":63.7,"end":89.908,"text":"委員好 跟您報告那這些資料都是從網路上一些舊的這些網路資料來拼湊而來拼湊 是那所謂拼湊是這20位成員的姓名大頭照跟身份證字號他們是一致的嗎這資料都是對的嗎所謂拼湊是什麼意思就是這些人有錯誤嗎"},{"start":91.741,"end":114.663,"text":"這些目前查是舊的資料這是舊的資料那這些成員還在我們指揮部嗎有三分之二人員都已經退伍了所以三分之二已經退伍了其實有些成員還在指揮部還在我們資通電軍指揮部裡面對 少部分而已那少部分這些成員的這個他公布的資訊是對的嗎"},{"start":116.084,"end":142.434,"text":"都是舊的資料舊的資料對OK好我想請教接下來就是我想請教的就是我們自通電軍我們依照國家情報工作法第三條第二項規定已經是同意我國情報的機關其實應該要接受嚴格安全的查核跟保密的規範可是我剛剛聽您在講說其實這是舊的資料在網路上可以撈得到的資料所以我們對這些成員是完全沒有明確的身份保護機制嗎"},{"start":143.694,"end":163.381,"text":"包委員這個部分就是陳委員所說的就是有適用對象就是在請工法適用對象那另外一個就是既有的這些做法針對身份的這些保護的這些機制和措施都有規範那所以會保障這些人員的相關的權益和安全權益跟安全那身份我們沒有做到保護嗎"},{"start":164.482,"end":185.748,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們現在就是要採取相關的一些保護措施所以會強化身份隱匿跟掩護的相關的措施所以之前是沒有的 之前在網路上就可以撈到他們的資料所以現在我們才開始要研議 比如說建立這個化民化的制度啦或者是他們的生活安全維護 現在才要開始的意思嗎 部長"},{"start":186.657,"end":211.083,"text":"我們應該在這個月就會來實行這個月才要實行所以之前其實雖然說資通電軍已經是納入這個國家情報工作法裡面適用的這個對象可是一直以來我們都沒有在做這方面的保護措施現在才要做我想我們繼續就是說"},{"start":213.109,"end":234.544,"text":"一些相關在網路資料上面的一些他會收羅那我們也了解這個友情公法的一個適用所以我們現在已經採取了相關的這些做法我們一定會來安化身份隱匿跟掩護的相關措施就是做一個補救的措施就對了所以之前完全沒有做為什麼呢"},{"start":236.586,"end":243.742,"text":"為什麼我們都已經納入勤工法這麼多年為什麼之前都沒有再做現在問題發生了才來做呢"},{"start":249.966,"end":264.856,"text":"這個部分是他在個人臉書的一些資訊個人臉書的資訊對 都已經在從去年的時候都已經都移除了所以就剛跟我們報告這是舊的資料"},{"start":267.978,"end":294.327,"text":"OK好那當然剛剛有提到就是說我們有些成員目前還是在我們自通電軍的指揮部裡面那像這些成員的話我們對他們目前當然他一定會覺得這個安全受到這個疑慮嘛那我們如何去做保護呢因為畢竟他們有些人都還是在在這個我們指揮部裡面目前的保護措施目前能做到怎樣的保護措施"},{"start":295.755,"end":322.33,"text":"我想剛剛已經提過了因為他現在相關的這些資料的揭露其實是過去的那個網站上面的一個資料所以現在網站上面的可是畢竟他還是掌握了部分的成員啊對不對有些已經退了剛剛說有些已經退可是有些都還在我們指揮部裡面還沒退啊還沒退的這些成員呢我們現階段如何保護出國我們有沒有保護到他的人身的安全他的家屬有沒有這個安全的疑慮這部分呢"},{"start":323.408,"end":336.385,"text":"這部分我們如何來做呢?我們現在應該會採取一些別名的這個措施,然後還有內部管控這些相關的作為來進行,用以勤工法的相關規定來進行加以保護。"},{"start":338.015,"end":359.508,"text":"這個部分我想應該還是要努力來做這個補救當然他現在發布這些資訊我想應該都是發動資訊戰跟心理戰的一部分那像習近平在這個中共二十大報告裡面還有提出研究掌握信息化智能化戰爭特點規律講的其實就是戰爭的形態其實已經加速向這個資訊化跟智能化來做這個轉變"},{"start":361.969,"end":388.122,"text":"那像之前國安局他都已經有提到了共軍他是針對台灣的基礎設施網路進行滲透那意圖呢當然需要奪取這個控制權那隨著這個AI的技術的這個運用越來越成熟當然我想未來中共用這個AI工具生成跟散發這個假資訊是會越來越嚴重那國安局之前也有示警說台灣政府在2024年每一天我們遭受到這個駭客的這工具是高達240餘萬次"},{"start":390.943,"end":409.229,"text":"幾乎都是中共的晚軍所為我們賴清德總統之前有宣示要提升台灣的軍費達GDP的3%以上所以我想請問一下我們國防部針對我們的資訊安全這部分我們會不會投入更多的資源來做升級目前我們有怎麼樣的一個規劃"},{"start":410.849,"end":429.156,"text":"我想我們一直不斷的在強化我們的這個資訊安全的環境那現在包括這一次有提出的那個特別條例裡面那麼我記得應該相關有關涉及資訊的部分應該有600多億總共700億,總共700億左右700億?對"},{"start":436.198,"end":460.818,"text":"有關於這個特別條例裡面其實有我們有700億的這個預算準備出來做這個提升這個資訊有關資訊的安全是這個部分嗎因為它涉及到一些這個自動作業環境的韌性設備效能的提升還有指管系統的韌性跟治安的防護的擴充那當然還有一些共同圖像的一個簽證能力"},{"start":461.398,"end":479.749,"text":"然後作戰區的一些通知線基礎設備的提升,然後還有網傳作業的各項設備的一個補充我想這個案子對於我們治安的韌性的提升是有相當大的幫助,還請各位能夠支持放在我們這一次"},{"start":482.211,"end":504.95,"text":"這個韌性的一個國土安全韌性對是OK 好 謝謝部長因為我想這個資訊作戰呢就是我們國土防衛的這個第一線我想國防部呢對這個部分應該要提出更多具體的這個做法我想資訊安全不應該是要成為這個不應該成為這個防線最脆弱的這個破口我想這部分應該大家要來做一個努力OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 薛薇"}]}},{"id":"162412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c91ae857a8bb692775023e49d939498c5af3738a47179c06525a549a2cf34375e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:22:21 - 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謝謝主席我想要講一下這一次這個相關版本是民眾黨所提出來的修正版本但是我要提醒民眾黨還有相關如果後續要支持的在野黨委員"},{"start":29.409,"end":41.843,"text":"這一次的法案版本是直接禁覆二讀如果他們真的覺得這個法案這麼好他們為什麼要直接禁覆二讀為什麼不直接在委員會裡面討論呢所以我要先提出這個質疑同時我也就要感謝主席安排今天這個公聽會讓社會大眾有機會透過今天直播"},{"start":45.507,"end":52.809,"text":"一樣是直播的公聽會聽見所有專業的聲音我認為這件事情非常非常重要所以我今天的發言會針對兩個部分一個是修法本身還有就是淨富二讀民眾黨一貫採取的手法來討論第一個關於事實審在法庭直播的這個部分我對這個提案表達高度的疑慮"},{"start":64.392,"end":87.339,"text":"他們一直說這個可以促成所謂的司法公開透明可是事實上目前為止除了特定的案件之外其實大部分的法庭審理剛剛律師也都說了我們一般人都可以走進去旁聽除了高度社會關注的案件像凱凱案以外可能因為人太多我們才需要抽籤所以如果連這件事情大家都不知道就認為直播才可以促進所謂公開透明那真的是大錯特錯此外呢"},{"start":89.319,"end":105.477,"text":"现在所有的判决书也都可以公开上网里面会有判决理由会有诉讼代理人会有检察官还有法官的名字也都看得到因此公开透明的目的就已经达到了同时还可以监督司法所以我真的不知道为什么会有这个提案"},{"start":106.238,"end":130.898,"text":"但是如果谈到法庭直播到底会出现什么问题我想要提醒大家目前如果真的透过法庭直播因为他没有办法及时的隐蔽所谓比较敏感性的资讯所以有很多原来在判决书里面我们会做去识别化的处理的这些资讯跟内容在第一时间就会被直播放送出去如同刚刚律师说的"},{"start":131.378,"end":157.094,"text":"所有的网红就会在第一时间剪辑相关影片制造错假讯息操控人心他有专业的网军在后面操控我们不知道在后续相关同一个案件审理上会不会给法官给证人给检察官带来莫名其妙的压力这个是我们都很担心的而这个放松出去的同时他也侵害了当事人的隐私还有我刚刚说的证人呢鉴定人都会受到影响"},{"start":157.694,"end":177.06,"text":"另外呢在提案中他們提到法庭的直播發起權限一是由被告申請二是由法院依照職權可以來申請直播我先說我不知道什麼樣的被告是想要讓自己的審判第一時間公諸於世我更難以想像"},{"start":177.6,"end":180.203,"text":"有怎麼樣的辯護人會想要把自己的當事人送上全國直播所以我看到民眾黨這個進步二讀的提案版本要依被告申請這個立法模式我真的是要說前所未見另外呢 被告申請"},{"start":193.178,"end":219.501,"text":"的同時他也不需要讓其他當事人甚至是證人、鑑定人他們的陳述意見他們第一時間可不可以同意這件事情完全沒有在修法當中配套機制有提到一樣是莫名其妙粗糙的修法我認為他們這個動作會把審判變成秀場把交互結論變成一場大戲把法官的自由行政最後變成全民公審"},{"start":220.402,"end":234.519,"text":"而剛剛前面兩位專家學者都已經提到不管是相關家暴的案例或者是後續網軍的操控這難道是我們真的期待的司法公開透明審判模式嗎接下來我想要談一下目前民眾黨"},{"start":236.02,"end":250.166,"text":"堅持把這個提案禁覆二讀可是我發現在這一屆司法法事委員會或是整個立法院有一個非常奇怪的現象他們很喜歡把自己的法案禁覆二讀我想要問如果民眾黨你們真的認為自己的法案這麼好你們"},{"start":250.886,"end":274.768,"text":"為什麼不好好在委員會討論,得到更多國民的支持,得到更多法學專家人士的支持,而是決定進赴二讀。我可以猜想,如果後續他們還是要決定開著這個私塾列車往前衝,我們可能很遺憾的又到院會去表決,最後讓他們三讀通過。我想要說,這一年以來,以黃國昌為首的所謂卡提諾法學派,一直在要求直播。"},{"start":275.288,"end":292.622,"text":"而我因為這一個會期當任黨團幹部我看到非常多荒謬提案他都要直播包含國安簡報他要直播是要直播給誰看總統邀請大家共商國事他也要直播關於行政院召開黨團會議邀請各個黨邊進行關稅衝擊協商他也要直播"},{"start":297.145,"end":311.855,"text":"我不知道到底叫做台灣民眾黨還是叫做台灣直播黨我都開始擔心會不會以後所有立法委員吃飯睡覺這些都要被要求公開直播所以最後我想要講回歸司法層面前一陣子藍白直衝北解我認為那已經是妨礙司法公正給予司法施壓但是他們在相關的提案裡面卻一樣只敢處理不法關說不敢處理施壓"},{"start":322.663,"end":346.365,"text":"施壓司法的罪到目前為止還想把法院的直播禁負二讀把司法審判變成全民公審我認為這是給司法體系造成更大的壓力而且可能會造成更多公民的遺憾所以我要堅決的反對這個提案也希望今天後續聽到所有專家學者的意見讓提案的黨團跟委員可以及時煞車以上 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謝謝主席今日本日提案說明那鑑於近年來無照駕駛發生的交通事故頻傳所以不僅危險到我們公共的安全對於自身生命安全呢也是非常非常極大的威脅而無照駕駛造成的死傷人數已經不亞於酒駕顯見現行的法律規定已經有不足以有效嚇止"},{"start":38.925,"end":57.297,"text":"無照駕駛的行為為防範無照駕駛的現象我特領據這一次的交通管理條例處罰條例第21條條文修正草案本草案的重點有二無照最高罰到三萬六且當場一致保管車輛"},{"start":59.939,"end":76.711,"text":"加重汽車所有人的連帶責任汽車所有人允許無照駕駛及機車小型車環理及特據要這個特高我們要提高這個罰環特高在這個提高在這個三萬六"},{"start":78.012,"end":101.663,"text":"並按累積次數加重處罰吊扣牌照期間最長至一年那剛剛也有其他的委員有提到有關於並排停車希望能夠將下限提高我覺得這部分本席也是非常非常的認同那也在這一次的討論當中我們也希望所有的委員能夠一起支持那我在地方也"},{"start":102.563,"end":126.473,"text":"非常非常多的一些市民朋友跟我們在反映這一次雖然我們的排氣管有納入一些規範管制但是呢真正的噪音改裝車並沒有真正的嚇指沒有根絕所以在這個部分上也希望在這一次的討論當中能夠充分的討論再想一些更好的方法能夠有效的來嚇指以上"}]}},{"id":"162409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c966e199cf8ca48a988c2a0f21558b58c3f3738a47179c0652286ec5ce099167b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"09:18:57 - 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設置累犯加重條款對於兩年內重複造駕駛者加重處罰並得一致保管其所駕車輛來遏止慣性違法三 針對協助行為刻以責任"},{"start":91.305,"end":110.571,"text":"分涉車主或實際支配人出借車輛供無照駕駛之連帶罰則來強化源頭的管理加重重大事故行政責任明定無照駕駛造成重傷或死亡事故者除依法附刑者外行政法同步加重以來凸顯其社會的危險性"},{"start":113.066,"end":136.797,"text":"那本席認為無照駕駛絕非單一的交通違規事件而是長期侵蝕我國交通秩序造成重大社會傷害的結構性問題我有透過明確而有效的法律規範來建立用路人的基本安全底線為此提出本修正條文草案希望各位同志能夠支持通過還社會一個安全有序負責的交通環境謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162408","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162408","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9105e6cea4b24a57b8c2a0f21558b58c3f3738a47179c0652f82bc5d892225b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:15:45 - 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謝謝主席那本次道交條例我個人有三個條文有提出草案那第一個是我們的噪音車的問題過去大家對於噪音車的詬病是非常的大那影響我們民眾生活的安寧那因此過去大概兩三年時間交通部配合環境部"},{"start":24.302,"end":42.308,"text":"有推出了這個排氣管的一個認證的一個制度那所有上路的一個機車排氣管都必須要有認證那如果沒有認證的話會有相關的一個罰則但是這相關的一個罰則或取締只有限定在移動中的交通工具才能夠取締也就是說我們員警在巡邏的過程中"},{"start":45.229,"end":65.445,"text":"看到有機車發出比較大的噪音他才可以主動去取締那相對起來他是一個比較危險的一個取締的行為那包括也沒有辦法大規模的去做一些相關的一個查處所以說這次的修法建議包括我們只要是停放在公有道路公有範圍的一個路權範圍內的一些機車他只要沒有他的排氣管沒有經過認證的話"},{"start":72.19,"end":95.33,"text":"那我們遠景一樣都有這個取締的一個權利 第一點是我們的照應車的規範的調整那第二點是我們高速公路的內側車道我們現在其實高速公路局一直有在高速公路做一些宣導內側車道是超車道 請勿佔用但是我們的高速公路的內側車道 超車道它的限速並沒有比其他的車道的限速來得高請問"},{"start":97.216,"end":123.495,"text":"要怎麼超車這是一個很俗的一個問題那因此我個人提出了一個1.2倍以內就是限速1.2倍以內這個超車道不予處罰的一個條文的規定那當然我提出的是一個方向我提出的建立方案不一定是最好的但是修法的一個目的是希望把內車車道它是一個超車道的一個精神能夠實際的落實在道路上面"},{"start":124.416,"end":133.375,"text":"那因此這個提出了相關的修法的一個這個草案那第三個是進行機車的一個明文的一個公告"},{"start":134.614,"end":151.351,"text":"過去以來許多的地方政府都拿大陸交通安全規則第99條第一項的一個規定來訂定進行規則的一個公告或者是一些標示等等但是我們交通部也有明確的韓文給許多的地方政府第99條第一項的規定並不是拿來作為進行機車的一個"},{"start":157.297,"end":183.546,"text":"依據地方政府不能夠拿這條來進行移車那一切還是以道路的線性現場的一個規範安全性來做一個來做一個這個考量為主要的依規在實務上長期以來地方政府對於進行基建這件事情都有矯枉過正的一個情況因此在這條法例它其實有一點是基本法的一個概念在矯枉過正的情況下在我們希望"},{"start":184.506,"end":202.034,"text":"這個推動汽機車平權的情況下我們希望地方政府對於所有進行機車都要有一個明確序名的一個理由來保持它的一個正當性那也避免我們的地方政府一切把責任都推給我們的交通部讓我們的汽機車的一個環境在道路上能夠更加的安全以上 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戰鬥部隊嘛6月1號志願役加擠跟戰鬥部隊加擠志願役跟戰鬥部隊然後6月1號有增加了網路站加擠"},{"start":103.687,"end":127.064,"text":"所以這是一系列的這個措施那這個一定是有去橫著整個財務的規劃不要去做到任何的擠壓能夠在能力範圍之內所做的事情所以我還是覺得我們立法院就是這一年以來用這種迴線亂政的方式真的我也必須要講假設今天立法委員直接通過一個法律說電價全部歸零我相信全國人民也會歡呼啦但問題是他就不符合我們現在憲政體制的這個設計嘛"},{"start":130.186,"end":144.849,"text":"所以還是要講一下但是問題是這個我看今天開始大概很大一部分就是會做這樣的一個政治攻擊所以我也是希望國防部能夠多多跟軍人說明就是說今天我們並不是說支持或不支持"},{"start":145.811,"end":171.273,"text":"軍人的這個加擠的這個方案我們是針對這個憲政體制針對這樣的一個立法方式有所懷疑那但是我們對於現在呢這個待遇的提升 世紀的提升我們當然大方向是贊成的但我還是認為立法院應該要做的事情是用決議的方式然後讓行政院 讓國防部去評估然後評估之後呢我們可以看到其實在過往我們都已經發生過好幾次的加刑嘛"},{"start":171.633,"end":191.781,"text":"那我們當然是建議要往哪一個方向前進我覺得這才是一個立法行政比較好的一個分際但我還有一個小問題因為這是剛剛前面馬文俊委員提到的讓我想還是我覺得應該把這個立場講一下那我今天有看到這個因為今天有這個跟性平相關的這個解凍案那這個性平相關的解凍案我認為就是說"},{"start":194.64,"end":213.071,"text":"當然這個既然都已經做了專案報告我覺得可以做一個稍微的檢視就是說在第一頁的時候裡面有提到說這個性別相關的這個教材叫做科版那第一個我認為雖然科版這個是有檢討但是它的解決方式我覺得好像"},{"start":213.911,"end":243.211,"text":"好像沒有寫在上面我的建議就是說一些跟實力相關的整合這件事情因為既然都說已經刻板了實力相關的整合我覺得應該要進去這是第一點第二點就是通常因為我以前當過性品委員所以性品機制蠻重要的一個就是叫做處理的流程圖跟窗口如果說今天即時處理的窗口還有流程圖是有讓每一位官兵都能夠知道他很清楚說這個處理的流程是什麼樣子"},{"start":244.211,"end":260.711,"text":"以及處理時間通常我們都一定很在意就是說因為如果說你處理時間都很長那就可能會造成什麼就算我知道這個流程圖就算有這個處理的窗口這個一年半載根本就沒有辦法處理這個會降低他們想要去通報的意願嘛"},{"start":261.773,"end":280.791,"text":"那問題是處理時間的長短這個可能是要長期追蹤我們才知道那這個是我們定期每一年可以去看一下如果我們有這個處理的流程然後呢 加上我們處理的時間然後定期的也跟讓官兵知道那這樣對性平的這一個幫助我認為會比較大啦我就直接建議啦 這個建議那再來就是"},{"start":281.391,"end":303.884,"text":"性別友善這件事情其實蠻重要那女性的一個比例比如說我們今天在這個裡面有哪一些平等的工作小組啦什麼等等之類的我在猜可能有可能有比例啦只是在報告裡面沒有寫到但這個可能也稍微注意一下稍微建議一下那接下來我想問一下自通電不好意思 請自通電"},{"start":306.482,"end":335.857,"text":"這件事情其實已經發生一陣子了這個我記得之前這個時序2024年9月的時候就有一次這個台獨網軍匿名者六四起底這樣的一個文章那這個我好像在X上面我印象是這個樣子2025年說他鎖定4名然後呢2025年6月5號說又20名那剛剛資通電有提到說這個是舊的資料所以我覺得這不是一個最大的問題因為他們本來就喜歡用舊資料而且他跟護證機關我們護證資料也有外洩嘛所以做一些比對啊等等之類的"},{"start":336.477,"end":364.136,"text":"那但是我現在想要知道的事情就是說因為我們今天一直提到軍人待遇的提升希望是他留營嘛就是希望軍人待遇提升之後大家願意待在國軍那現在這件事情對資通電它是一個新戰資通電人數其實也多那在這樣的一個新戰的這個狀況之下呢一定也會影響到招募啊留營啊等等的意願所以我這邊第一個就是剛剛美林委員有提到但我想再確認一次就是說我們在這個匿名的機制在這個資通電是說過往"},{"start":366.897,"end":391.823,"text":"沒有做,但是現在要開始嗎?是這個意思嗎?就是說我們跟委員報告,應該是說我們今年的3、4月開始已經開始在研討這個議題那就我的了解就是說,有關相關的這些具體的做法跟畫面作業的系統的建立我們就會在這個月底以前完成,然後來實行這樣"},{"start":393.143,"end":418.342,"text":"好 我覺得這個很重要 因為軍情跟國安通常會做這些啦那 這個我是覺得說 因為這個機制是正在建立當中嘛那正在建立當中的同時呢 自動電應該是 現在應該要做一些比較純防守的業務因為如果說在這個期間呢 又有一些其他的情勢發生的話那因為這個機制還沒有完成嘛 那就很容易又會被做文章啦所以我還是覺得說 這一個方面可能還是要多注意一點"},{"start":419.102,"end":444.149,"text":"那另外一個就是這個因為剛剛有提到說其實有三分之二的人他已經他已經離開了嘛他已經不在自動電了但問題是他還是可能會有一定程度的風險他不只是可能會被制裁的風險或者被抓的風險甚至有可能是這個所謂的這個被統戰的風險所以我這邊有提到就是說呢當然因為我不知道他們因為剛剛並沒有提到他離開多久啊我覺得在這邊也不要講但如果說他已經是可以出國的話"},{"start":444.969,"end":473.019,"text":"可能要跟他講這個相關風險而且不是只有這20位因為他可能只是隨便挑20位然後去拼湊一些舊資料他鎖定的可能是比較多人那這些不管是尤其是已經退役的那剛剛我們也有提到甚至現已我們都有提到跟這個觀光有關的這個措施嘛這個有可能會造成他們人身上的安全又倒過來講可能變成反過來要統戰的對象這個風險有可能必須要告知這件事情所以拜託注意一下"},{"start":476.582,"end":487.836,"text":"我想我們現在就是參照國安局跟軍局相關的做法我們會來進行相關的這些退役人員管制的一些作為"},{"start":489.818,"end":515.431,"text":"剛剛也提到了我們會有一些具體的一些做法就是隱匿或者是掩護等等的一些即使是退役的話我想我們也會來進行所以這個部分我覺得我們有國安局跟這個軍情局可以來做一個參考因為離開國軍之後有時候反而是風險開始增高的時候因為對他們來講容易接觸是"},{"start":519.695,"end":533.094,"text":"這個趨勢科技因為最近當然也有做一些新的資安報告那這個我先不多問因為但是這個也跟現在跟自動電它不同的路徑怎麼去感染什麼等等之類的那這個在不管是我們做採購什麼等等之類的這可能要特別注意一下"},{"start":534.315,"end":550.562,"text":"接下來我還有一個比較小的問題是要問中科院跟資源司這個部分其實已經有在辦公室先討論過但是我覺得我們還是跟國人來做一個公開的說明就是說我們都知道現在有軍品認證軍品認證這邊有一個評鑑事項的評分表格在這個做評分表格之後因為這個評分表格裡面有講到研發"},{"start":559.426,"end":572.361,"text":"那這個有些跟中科院合作的廠商他就有點害怕就是說因為他比較負責製造然後中科院做了研發他就怕說研發的分數沒有辦法算到他身上所以呢那因為中科院也會跟他講說反正你就去申請這個認證這個認證內容的標準就擺在那邊你就去申請就對了但是他們有時候會有點無所適從"},{"start":579.429,"end":600.869,"text":"那我們那時候問資源司的時候資源司說這個中科院某種程度可以做一些輔導但中科院的立場會說這個會不會有迴避的問題所以呢是不是這邊再跟國人說明一下就是說這種軍品認證它的流程那它應該怎麼做有沒有什麼輔導的機制讓他們說他們的評分機制在這邊然後有哪些是算分不算分該怎麼做是不是跟國人說明一下"},{"start":601.637,"end":623.659,"text":"級別認證的部分主要是資源師在做負責我想輔導的部分以及宣導的部分都是由資源師來做那我們從我上任以後我發現級別認證的這個廠家數不夠高所以我們現在應該要多鼓勵他們來進行那現在在相關的辦法裡面大概有分三類"},{"start":624.48,"end":653.083,"text":"所以他們也要就這個不同的這個三類的這種軍品的這個認證部分也要有一定的治安的一個認證的要求那另外我要求他們的流程要加快因為過去本來審議的時間會比較長一點那我們現在應該是要縮短這個級別認證的審議的時間所以我希望在軍品認證的這個部分能夠盡快的加速加多"},{"start":653.783,"end":667.75,"text":"那現在是中科院的合作廠商的部分呢反而就是說他不一定會來做級別的認證那就這個部分的這些合作的廠商的部分以後我想我們也應該要設法來輔導他們來"},{"start":670.191,"end":682.582,"text":"那這個中科院的部分要補充一下嗎我們確實很積極的在輔導他們並沒有角色認證的問題那就拜託因為今天部長也講了那就請兩位單位幫忙來做一些輔導至少說讓他們覺得這個流程是順利就跟我們剛剛講性平積極一樣"},{"start":689.048,"end":716.281,"text":"有一個流程一個SOP是長什麼樣子這一定會有幫助那因為我時間已經到了但最後呢我剛剛忘記了就是說剛剛自動電的部分因為前陣子他們去年針對海巡的興戰比較多但現在針對自動電感覺也是一個興戰這個相信除了我們剛剛講要怎麼去針對已經退出的要怎麼去保護他或者告知他以外對於現役的自動巡人員他一定會有一些心理上的壓力所以這個不管是輔導的機制什麼等等之類的拜託就是可以協助一下"},{"start":716.761,"end":742.094,"text":"另外最重要的就是我剛剛寫在第一頁的就是就是因為這很明顯對方用拼湊的資料啦用什麼之類的直接做一個新戰的攻擊所以呢我知道今天有各個委員去詢問但是拜託就不要再要求各級要什麼檢討提報什麼之類因為這完全就是在增加業務我覺得沒有任何的意義他就是一個中國的攻擊師中國應該負責我們現在想現在第一個先扶平情緒然後接下來就是我們要該怎麼防範把防範這件事情做好我覺得就可以了"},{"start":742.835,"end":746.372,"text":"好 謝謝文哲 我們現在就在做這樣的事情謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c978f7f7a1834baf83023e49d939498c5a7ecf2f83f27aab3be63f43b907692b255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:11:50 - 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謝謝主席 有請顧部長"},{"start":8.305,"end":36.924,"text":"部長早部長有關我們這個海空戰力提升計畫採購的特別預算從111年到115年我們總共在這五年間編列了2369億左右的預算那要依註在可快速量產的各式武器裝備也可以落實我們這個國防自主的政策而在這個特別預算的依註之下我們中科院產能和專業人員"},{"start":39.025,"end":63.875,"text":"這個部分都已經在擴充當中那也在建構完整的一個國防產業的一個供應鏈但是這個特別預算到明年他就會退場那如果後續沒有其他的案子銜接上來我們好不容易這個擴展的這個量能恐怕又會消散那在此我想請教部長就是國防部後續不論透過公務預算或是特別預算在"},{"start":64.875,"end":85.472,"text":"委治案的規劃上有沒有相應比例的一個編列,來延續這些產能和人力?有的,那因為現在我們有會納入我們的一個特別預算案裡面,那當然也有我想這個部分是不是由站櫃司來做一個說明好了"},{"start":85.963,"end":94.034,"text":"委員好,我是三貴市市長。向委員報告,海空戰力提升裡面我們所採購的精準彈藥,後續年度我們都會編列訊號,相關的需求。"},{"start":97.079,"end":122.512,"text":"那針對中科院未來發展更符合我們國軍防衛作戰的這些品項那我們也會依據敵情威脅的狀況來編列未來可能請中科院繼續去產製的這些項目所以中科院擴產的這些能量跟人才未來還是會持續的運用它是不會受到這個影響會持續延續下去對不會因為我們特別預算結束就沒了不會"},{"start":124.813,"end":146.75,"text":"我想再請教部長,下禮拜在伊蘭蘇澳的海域,我們將舉行無人艇的公開展示活動除了要延續發展國造無人載具的政策,也包括中科院去年啟動快期專案的科研部分"},{"start":147.27,"end":171.341,"text":"那部長先前也提到兩棲的這個徵收大隊將率先增編無人艇的這個專責部隊接下來我們國軍針對這個無人艇的運用我們這個需求是否都有按照我們原先的這個規劃提出相關的數量那採購案會編列在明年度的這個供應預算中嗎"},{"start":174.54,"end":187.251,"text":"我們希望無零品的部分如果能夠盡快通過測評的話,我們會想辦法編列在特別預算案裡面下半年度下半年度,那就可以執行了"},{"start":188.457,"end":201.988,"text":"我們期望能夠編入特別預算案我相信吳征廷對於我們守護的海域非常重要這部分要請國防部海軍這邊還是相關單位優先來重視"},{"start":208.188,"end":229.715,"text":"最近也看到國防部為了讓這個後備組織跟幕僚機制能夠事權統一並且要建構後備動員合一的這個機制在今年的2月1號將編配的這個部分從陸軍兩年多的這個後備指揮部再回到這個全動組的管轄"},{"start":231.772,"end":255.504,"text":"最近有傳聞說我們國防部規劃後備旅明年將再編回陸軍以達到地面部隊事權統一的一個指揮那我想請教部長目前後備體制的這個評估是否有再這個移編後備旅的一個規劃那那個後備旅編在這個全動署和編在這個陸軍對於國軍的整體戰力會有什麼樣的影響和差別"},{"start":262.214,"end":289.585,"text":"跟委員報告幾點,第一點就是說國防部依照黨章編訓的原則跟強化全民國防兵力結構調整的方案,我們現在正在進行規劃規劃整個的這個兵力結構調整方案,其實這個相關的兵力結構調整方案的弧度不會只限於剛剛委員所提到的後備的部分,是整體的海控路等等還有其他包括"},{"start":291.226,"end":307.96,"text":"這些相關的,包括自動電軍也好,還有甚至這個後備部隊也好所以相關的這個部分,因為還在規劃當中,我想涉及機密,我們就不立意公開不過可能第二點跟委員說明就是說這個權重署下轄的這個後備指揮部的這個部分,我們認為"},{"start":318.709,"end":326.037,"text":"後備組織跟這個權動署的這個部分要來予以整合,因為他整合要"},{"start":327.254,"end":352.714,"text":"要來負責整個國防軍事動員的這個政策然後還有各跨部會的協調整合所以後備指揮部隸屬於權動署之後我們認為他們要全新,權動署加後備指揮部要全新貫徹這個全民防衛動員的事項然後有關於動員召集還有留守業務等等的這個都在我們現在正在整體規劃的範圍之內"},{"start":354.796,"end":383.465,"text":"那另外我們2023年開始實施這個女性後備軍人的這個志願教召那國防部年初有公布114年相關的這個作業規定來看將會由480人增加到590人那截至目前來看今年志願參加的這個情形是否踴躍那近三年擴大辦理女性官兵投入召集的這個訓練對於我們後備戰力的提升有何成效"},{"start":384.746,"end":400.087,"text":"我想我並不感到滿意有關那個志願的女性志願教召的部分那我們現在著重的政策的重點是在將志願役的官司兵全部納入後備教召的邊關那這個要進行修法我們希望"},{"start":400.897,"end":420.378,"text":"根本知道是在這個地方也就是說國家栽培這些自願意的女性的官兵我們還是希望納入後備教召納入動員的一環這樣子因為他們都表現得也都非常的好部長您在去年上任之後兩個禮拜有推動一個叫"},{"start":421.9,"end":448.717,"text":"這個國軍人員出國業務作業規定的這個修正那要新增自助旅遊的相關規定雙綁長久以來這個軍人出國自由行的限制當初我們初估有多達18萬人會受惠獲得了這個廣泛的好評那實施已經滿一周年那在這一年我們這個官兵申請出國自助旅遊的這個人次相較救治團體旅遊來看"},{"start":450.638,"end":465.562,"text":"有沒有顯著的增加另外部長認為在官兵出國自由行的這個作業上是否還有能夠改進的一個地方並且能夠兼顧安全也讓國軍在安排休假時能夠更加的便利"},{"start":467.467,"end":491.467,"text":"那天參加交通部的那個有關官民優先登記之後,後來有請人事室做個統計看起來應該是說我們去年6月5號開放以後,這個自助旅遊的人數已經達到2萬多人然後2萬7千多,團體旅遊大概1萬6千多所以就要去年同期增加到1萬6千多人,所以這個"},{"start":493.629,"end":496.757,"text":"部分看起來應該是有相當人數的增加"},{"start":498.646,"end":523.266,"text":"好 那我們也就剛剛陳儒這個部長您說的跟交通部也有提出一個六家國籍航空的部分軍人優先登機的禮遇那這項政策具有相當正面的意涵不但可以提升這個官兵休假的便利也是對於我們國軍的支持和尊重那出國的時候因為我們目前"},{"start":524.936,"end":552.808,"text":"這個要求可能是要佩戴這個軍人身份證那軍人身份證如果離隱之後代出可能會有相對的風險那我們在這個軍人身份證方面有沒有其他的變通的一個證明文件可以提供給我們這個休假的這個我們目前還是以軍人身份證的查驗為主因為到了這個因為他是到那個登機的那一刻所以我們還是以軍人身份證為主那我們現在已經配合"},{"start":553.502,"end":578.877,"text":"修正的那個身份證管理要點跟那個出口作為出口業務作為規定就刪除了不可以攜帶身份證的這個相關的規定是因為我跟委員報告就是說以前說出國不可以帶身份證那說怕遺失或如何那事實上你在國內也可能會遺失所以我認為這樣的一個政策上面"},{"start":580.597,"end":599.483,"text":"最主要當然是說這樣的措施來形塑軍人的榮譽感那麼我想身份證這個部分上面沒有任何機敏的資料,然後攜帶我想應該是還好好,因為這也是擔心啦,擔心他身份證,那個軍人身份證如果錯過如果他會掉的話,那他再"},{"start":600.684,"end":615.6,"text":"這個任何地方都會掉所以我覺得會不會掉,我們當然會希望他們妥善保管但是任何的身份證件資料他只要有拿著,他當然在任何地方都會掉另外部長,我們這個"},{"start":618.283,"end":647.483,"text":"公布的這個禮遇措施沒有包含這個軍人眷屬那這個部分是不是我們也可以研擬看看對於這個出國旅遊的這個軍事官他的眷屬未來隨行的話是不是也可以納入相關的這個優惠的一個方式我想這個部分還該再跟交通部再商議一下因為我們比較其他國家像美國的話他大概是說有一名"},{"start":648.403,"end":661.858,"text":"的眷屬可以帶一名所以我想我們再跟交通部來協商看看有關軍人眷屬的部分要如何來實施"},{"start":663.38,"end":684.063,"text":"那這部分就請部長跟我們相關同仁可以盡速的會同這個相關部會讓相關優惠的措施更加的完備達到我們禮遇國軍的一個目標也期待接下來我們推出更多有感的進軍政策給予我們國軍最大的支持好 謝謝部長是 謝謝謝謝委員支持"}]}},{"id":"162416","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9a3523a0bfceff628023e49d939498c5af3738a47179c06523ef1174435adc4975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:48:03 - 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我們是按照相關的規定來成立這個部長我們知道我們知道我們都有成立相關的這些外部委員也好或者相關的機制可是我們剛剛提到就是說為什麼在國防部國軍裡面他會有比較讓大家覺得比較擔心的問題就是剛剛提到的那些其實這些根本的因素如果不解決其實像我們剛剛提到的他的成績越來越高甚至"},{"start":143.021,"end":167.211,"text":"你自己本身都已經是性平的事件的一個主要的主觀可是他成為加害者的時候那他怎麼有辦法公平這是我們現在要特別提醒國防部的今天雖然這個案子解凍可是它持續在發生當中而且昨天部長也震怒所以我相信其實你認為這個事情還是可以應該要有更精進的一個做法"},{"start":171.693,"end":199.68,"text":"不是只有這些委員而已是,我想剛剛海軍也提出相關軍事重點這個應該不是只有海軍,應該是三軍都要來做現在就是說我們也立即採取一個隔離跟保護的措施也就是將被申訴人就立即調離的縣職然後到陸軍當任這個委員那也對這個受害人加以保護那我們同時成立了一個具有部外委員的一個"},{"start":200.696,"end":204.8,"text":"客觀公正的一個委員會來進行調查部長我知道齁我說這個可能是形式上的啦因為剛剛提到就是說他的因為如果說我們沒有去做根本的改變他很難不再發生這個才是我們要去提醒國防部的主要的重點"},{"start":219.713,"end":232,"text":"這個請部長再去做一個更全面性的或者像黑素今天如果不是多名女性一起這個一定不是昨天才發生或前天才發生嘛它應該是已經很長的一段時間那為什麼到後來大家才敢很多人的時候才敢表示出來這一個問題在哪裡請部長再去就這個根本的原因去做更好更深入的一個改善好不好"},{"start":246.367,"end":250.208,"text":"是那另外一個案子就用剛剛我們聽到在報告的時候也聽到有一些委員有特別都提到說我們對於訓場這個預算的一個凍結可是我們發現在"},{"start":265.107,"end":267.229,"text":"桃園高鐵營造廠一口氣把承攬石案工程停工他資金缺口大概20億引發市場的這個嘩然這個也是老字號的一個營造廠那這家營造廠他停工的項目裡面有兩項是關於國軍的工程部長您知道嗎"},{"start":285.422,"end":290.746,"text":"我想這是不是先請陸軍來做一個...沒關係,這是不是有這樣的事情,因為時間的關係嘛我們在凍結長安訓場的這個預算的時候我們也希望有一些是新的委員,可是也有舊的委員不要隨便扣帽子,剛開始我們去凍結這一筆預算的時候是因為長安營區它是學校"},{"start":310.842,"end":313.645,"text":"它是戰車基礎訓練尤其是我們M1A2T的一個基本駕駛訓練的一個場域對不對它本來應該在112年就應該要完成可是已經拖到114年如果再加上今天這個廠商又"},{"start":329.262,"end":340.527,"text":"有財務缺口的時候我想又要演了到明年可能都還來不及本來已經要演明年了嘛這是我們凍結的原因而且它比較離譜的是它全案的工作項目本來主要是戰車射擊靶場還有戰車的駕駛訓練場是這兩個主要項目總共四億五千萬可是我們在"},{"start":353.172,"end":356.635,"text":"整個執行的過程當中卻把這個重要的部分把它拿掉很多拿去做變更還有做水土保持工程而讓我們這個訓練的這個項目其實它沒有辦法完成而且要放在第二階段就另外在那邊預算在做這是我們凍結的原因請清楚的告訴我們所有的國人而不要用那種煽動性的或者誤導性的這是我們凍結的原因那今天長安營區要拿出來解凍"},{"start":383.315,"end":386.279,"text":"結果昨天發生這樣的問題它是不是會造成我們後續的整個執行的影響會不會包委員容我向您報告第一個我們今天已經召集了這個同胞商來做一個研討那"},{"start":398.012,"end":422.234,"text":"它後續是否有繼續承攬的能力那另外一個它有共同的承攬廠商也有分別有四家跟一家那我們也在持續的掌握承攬廠商它是否有接續這個營造能力我們都在持續的掌握當中那如果真的它無法遂行的話沒關係細節你們自己去做處置像這樣子這樣今天可以解凍嗎"},{"start":423.427,"end":441.487,"text":"包委員因為他目前這個你連所有的協商都還在進度超前進度超前這個好意思在這裡講嗎你本來112年要完成你把它延到115年而且把所有重要工項拿掉你可以說他進度超前"},{"start":442.028,"end":448.815,"text":"我做個比喻如果說今天我們真的跟他解約的話我們要去跟他做結算你要怎麼做沒關係以我們國軍的利益為考量這個要怎麼樣的處置作為你們自己去判斷我現在講的是當我們在凍結預算的時候一定有他的原因跟理由今天我們剛要解凍的時候他又發生另外一個"},{"start":463.571,"end":473.06,"text":"其他的因素而且會造成我們MYA2你們說這個是非常重要的這個要做我們基礎訓練駕駛訓練他如果沒有地方訓練他以後開出去我們動不動就撞到民車或撞到民人那會造成什麼樣的影響這是我們凍結的原因所以請"},{"start":482.188,"end":500.649,"text":"務實的去解決我們凍結的一個根本的一個問題所在而不是拿來作為一些政治工坊或者像一些在尤其現在大家動不動就大罷免把我們凍山預算全部都拿來說嘴"},{"start":502.031,"end":506.134,"text":"我們每一筆動三我們一定都有原因你現在我剛剛隨便舉兩個理由你們全部都沒有繼續做好而且才剛剛解凍又有新的事情發生這樣可以讓大家相信嗎這是我們今天要特別提出來的那今天借用一點時間要請部長可以去深刻的再去考量就是我們軍人家心的部分那這兩天其實引起非常大的就是討論"},{"start":532.033,"end":532.053,"text":"好"},{"start":532.642,"end":557.366,"text":"今天行政院的立場不管他是怎麼樣可是我們在這裡請部長你一定要站在國軍弟兄的立場去想因為昨天聽說所有的只要可以接觸到訊息可以看到電視螢幕或者可以看到其他的訊息來源的時候大家都在關注尤其我們國軍官兵其實全部都在關注這個案子會不會過當過了以後其實有非常多的歡呼聲"},{"start":562.307,"end":565.728,"text":"今天為什麼我們覺得他們是值得的是因為我們現在讓他們不管在演訓各方面其實他們的強度都越來越高今天如果我們在GDP已經要提升到3或3%以上動輒都有幾千億的一個增加我們買太多的武器裝備如果沒有精良的這些人力其實是沒有用的"},{"start":586.414,"end":590.379,"text":"如果看到他們聽這個訊息這個法一通過的時候大家那種歡呼其實這就是戰力的提升因為只有讓他們覺得我是值得的他們才會願意犧牲或者保家衛國才不是口號所以這個部分我們請部長您的看法"},{"start":605.816,"end":609.977,"text":"不要去配合行政院因為聽說國防部昨天也發聲明要配合復議或者要釋憲這個部長這個部分部長您的看法怎麼樣是不是可以讓大家知道我想我剛剛在會前接受記者訪問的時候已經說明了國進當然辛苦應該適度增加這個待遇但事實上我們在今年四月已經提升了志願役跟這個"},{"start":632.465,"end":653.303,"text":"戰鬥部隊的加急,網路戰加急也在6月1號提出,我們事實上要很多很多種的加急所以整個國軍練部加急的這個橫頻性我們必須是要考量的另外一點當然就是還是要說明一下,就是說立法所提的立法案如果大幅增加稅出的話還是要懇請立法院能夠徵詢請證的意見"},{"start":655.325,"end":662.732,"text":"好 那我提供兩個看法第一個就是說我們4月1號通過的這些加急其實它的加急是部分而且會造成有些偏頗就是你的關節越高有些你是領越少那有點像懲罰性的因為你到連急可是引急會受它的影響是比較大"},{"start":674.944,"end":693.994,"text":"那另外一個就是像他預算大幅支出預算大幅支出不是在軍人加薪的部分因為他大概增加是200或300億這個可能還要再去細算可是我們在國防支出的增加是高達三五千億這個對"},{"start":696.255,"end":717.744,"text":"整個預算來說它增加的幅度不是最大的可是它對我們戰力的提升卻有非常大的幫助這一點我們請部長可以因為您是國軍的大家長今天您的所作所為一定對他們會造成深刻的影響如果我們去把他們的福利拿掉或者跟他們站在不一樣的對立面的時候"},{"start":718.544,"end":724.407,"text":"其實他可能也會影響大大的影響他們的決心跟戰力這一點我想兩三百億對於我們整個戰力提升來說他可能是更重要的而且我們現在面臨最大的問題是即使我們有裝備都沒有人我們寧可"},{"start":735.371,"end":741.273,"text":"讓我們自己的國軍可以接受可以有更好的福利我聽到他們說那些歡呼聲我相信部長如果聽到的時候你也會感動那我們就這個部分是不是部長在就您現在目前的在這個位置上面可以再去跟高層或者相關的部會再去做一些考量跟討論好不好"},{"start":760.879,"end":786.696,"text":"我想國防部的立場當然就是說能夠照顧到官兵的待遇福利這當然都是樂見的但是我想我們還是要考慮到整個國家整理施政的很平性跟國家整理財政的餘度這樣子部長我還是要再提一次當我們增加三五千億預算的時候我們對於這樣兩三百億我覺得這樣的比例並不為過再一次提醒部長 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":790.036,"end":790.8,"text":"謝謝麻煩委員 部長請回"}]}},{"id":"162421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c96ac65197dc85cba6465e86193f4d4ac47ecf2f83f27aab3b5347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:08:05 - 10:19:23","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。二、處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等70案。【6月11日及12日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T10:08:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T10:19:23+08:00","duration":678,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-3-35-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.29221875,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.602218750000002,"end":16.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.799718750000004,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.40721875000001,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.47784375,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.91159375000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.58909375,"end":139.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.55409375000002,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.50284375,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.81909375,"end":159.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.51221875000002,"end":183.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.22159375,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.28471875000002,"end":214.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.25909375,"end":218.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.57909375000003,"end":264.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.44534375,"end":265.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.04846875000004,"end":293.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.26346875,"end":326.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.27096875,"end":338.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.53909375,"end":340.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.27721875000003,"end":384.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.62159375000005,"end":380.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.57909375,"end":381.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.64159375,"end":385.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.43471875,"end":388.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.65784375000004,"end":449.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.71596875,"end":451.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.16284375000004,"end":556.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.8259687500001,"end":603.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.05721875,"end":561.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.77409375,"end":564.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.41034375,"end":569.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.40096875,"end":575.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.3259687500001,"end":596.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.1772187500001,"end":607.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.6997187500001,"end":629.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.73846875,"end":650.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.87909375,"end":648.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.41471875,"end":657.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.25721875,"end":673.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.98471875,"end":674.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.1028437500001,"end":675.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.72284375,"end":676.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.39346875,"end":677.96721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.329,"end":10.403,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長是 林委員好"},{"start":11.66,"end":15.884,"text":"部長辛苦了因為本來其實現在應該都已經是進入休會期那麼你們可以回去好好的來針對我們的國防或者是其他相關的軍事演練來做這個處理但是今天還是為了預算解凍必須把我們所有的這些包括從部長以下我們所有的參謀指揮官通通找來這裡剛剛我們看到國民黨的委員"},{"start":34.079,"end":37.242,"text":"一方面面對這個我們要解凍預算尤其是非常重要的相關的這些所謂軍事設施等等的這個預算的解凍我們今天在這裡剛剛張偉也講了那麼國民黨的委員呢自己在質詢當中也不斷的強調"},{"start":52.318,"end":62.28,"text":"這個不要扣帽子然後這個預算的動刪都有一定的原因甚至於擔心因為大罷免大成功所以趕快要來做解釋一方面呢他們在煽動預算而且剛剛不斷的強調是說好現在這個預算因為相關的基地又出了問題所以不動行嗎不動難道說還要繼續這樣下去嗎但是部長"},{"start":77.523,"end":86.69,"text":"我請問一下有關於我們相關的軍事設施的這個預算我再來整理一下2025年藍白大砍的國防預算84億軍事的設備設施51億那設備跟投資13億國外的差旅教育費2億然後政策宣導是比較少一點0.3億因為本來國防部也就這部分的預算是比較少的然後一般事務水電啊這個我們國軍需要的水電費"},{"start":103.782,"end":114.609,"text":"也動刪了16.7億現在剛剛如果前面就國民黨的委員所講的話好像不動不刪就不行監督了部長真的是這樣嗎我們特別針對這個尤其凍結的這個預算高達快900億899億多就這個我來這邊已經第三次了"},{"start":127.657,"end":155.055,"text":"到現在還沒有完全能夠解凍完還有113年度的解凍案也還6個案也還沒有能夠解凍所以我想這個不管是3特別剛剛我們之前有提到國外旅會他又說不准留用那事實上我們跟有盟國家的軍事交流應該會有相當大的一個影響那凍結的部分高達了快900億的這個部分"},{"start":157.877,"end":182.877,"text":"到現在為止,剛剛當然馬委員舉了一兩個例子,但事實上高達900億的凍結的預算我認為這個在國際間傳達的一個就如同美國國會所講的,其實是一個非常不利於我們願意爭搶自我防衛能力決心的這樣子的一種"},{"start":184.718,"end":211.221,"text":"一種訊息的傳遞,就是會傳達一種錯誤的訊息就是說我們到底對於強化我們的自我防衛的能力然後來透過國防預算的一個甄列然後來展示我們成為區域嚇阻裡面的一個最重要最重要的一環這一件事情其實是在我看起來反而是非常"},{"start":212.926,"end":233.239,"text":"要值得大家麻煩各位不管是在朝或在野委員都要去深思的問題好所以本席特別為什麼把這個例子舉出來是因為國民黨的委員從昨天他說要給軍人加薪一手加薪但是一手動山預算我坦白講部長在這兒我們現在所有的這些我們的高階將領都在這裡這些動山的預算絕對不是只有部長一個人用或是在場的這些我們的這些高階的將領用"},{"start":242.565,"end":252.588,"text":"應該是所有的弟兄都會用到是吧那麼一方面我來看他們一山動山欲算但另外一方面呢他說他要加薪但是從2008年到2024年我特別做了一個比較表2008到2016馬英九執政是國民黨的馬英九執政的時候我們的薪資成長只有15%"},{"start":266.172,"end":293.001,"text":"16然後我們到了2016到2024年就是我們民長蔡英文總統執政的時候成長了26.76%我相信這個部分充分展現了我們對於國軍包括我們弟兄們的一個薪資上面的照顧包括我們昨天也特別提到了如果說今天一手是凱玉算動山運山讓國軍動彈不得甚至於就像部長您剛剛所講的就是我們"},{"start":294.541,"end":303.627,"text":"對外展現的是好像我們沒有想要好好的來對於國家的防衛的這個對外國際信息是錯誤的傳達的時候部長現在擺明了就是立法院通過了這300億那麼他會不會因為要強制加薪而排擠到接下來我們在軍頭或作業費上面的維繫跟維持我講一個更殘忍的是給他加薪但是不給他好的設備不給他好的配備"},{"start":324.601,"end":324.982,"text":"我想"},{"start":341.657,"end":359.804,"text":"我的看法跟委員報告,因為我們現在就任性的部分已經提出一個特別條例那我們會在下半年提出另外一個特別條例可是我們的年度預算有三分就是一個人員維持會、作業維持會跟軍事投資就這個部分納入年度預算的時候"},{"start":361.304,"end":385.843,"text":"你的人員維持會大幅的這個增加的時候你的年度預算的部分勢必會排除排除擠壓或不應該說排除應該是擠壓到我們的作業維持會跟我們的軍事投資作業維持會你不要看它不重要作業維持是我們唯心戰力的一個非常重要假設我們作業維持會因此被排擠而不夠的話那這個我們"},{"start":389.927,"end":404.4,"text":"我們這個沒有辦法妥善率能夠維持在一個程度的話那事實上這個對我們的戰力是非常產生大的影響那我們還有沒有納入特別條例的一些持續性的一些預算案那這個"},{"start":405.6,"end":430.476,"text":"如果我們因此而產生被排擠的話我們軍事的投資這個更會彰顯出我們對於自我防衛能力的決心的不足所以我覺得我在這邊只是說懇請就是說委員在做這樣的事情的時候我們能夠跟行政部因為我們花了很多的時間就4月1號的支援一條這個加急然後戰隊部隊加急那加加網路戰"},{"start":431.877,"end":450.798,"text":"電針、戰航管的加緊等等都經過內部很審慎的討論那如果委員在立法的同時能夠跟行政部門好好做一個溝通協調來審慎的研議相關的這個整體施政的橫平性我會站在國防部的講我會比較感激這樣子的一個做法好 其實本席也是認為"},{"start":452.239,"end":465.487,"text":"不論是在薪資上面給予我們辛苦第一線的國軍給予一定的所謂的加擠或者是加薪都是有其必要性但是除了加薪之外因為他們第一線是需要這些裝備來協助他們捍衛國家"},{"start":468.109,"end":485.789,"text":"那我也希望呈現出來的是不要一手給加薪一手在黨預算凍結預算我們今天要處理的所有凍結的預算要解凍都是國民黨的委員所提出來的所以我也希望在這個質詢台上要把事情講清楚不是扣帽子而是事實就是如此"},{"start":486.149,"end":489.533,"text":"另外我來看下一張剛剛其實有委員問到了這個有關於就是讓我們的國軍可以優先登基的部分其實本席第一時間就非常的肯定但是剛剛也有特別提到的就是有關於眷屬的部分"},{"start":502.128,"end":520.614,"text":"因為我們都知道國軍如果今天是因為公務外出那麼我相信在部裡面都會做一個很好的安排很妥適的安排但是有些時候這些狀況是難得可以收假的國軍弟兄們他們可能要跟家人出國"},{"start":521.534,"end":542.527,"text":"所以這個部分是不是有考量進去除了公務之外公務之餘這個部分的休息是不是也有納入那這個部分也許是在這個辦法推出的時候沒有在細部思考的我不知道部長是不是也有思考到這個部分就是我相信如果是公務公務優先但是我認為他們難得可以休假如果帶著家屬"},{"start":546.329,"end":562.46,"text":"那麼有沒有機會優先或者是有沒有什麼樣的思考這個部分部長您這邊跟交通部部分有沒有進行更細部的的了解我想第一點就是說我上任之後就開放自助旅行嘛是旅遊那自由行"},{"start":564.822,"end":579.604,"text":"自由行剛剛人事給我的資料就顯示人數是增加的所以我們這一次的優先搭機當然就是不會是限於公務就是當然包括你要參加團體旅遊也好或者參加自助旅遊"},{"start":579.944,"end":607.237,"text":"自由行也好都是可以使用那軍人身份證的部分我們也研究過了沒有涉及相關的機敏的部分那眷屬的部分的話我們在第一波沒有納入那不過我想交通部也表示相當大的一個善意說願意來跟我們進行研討那應該是說我們會想辦法納入第二階段好 所以第二階段有機會把一起出國的眷屬也納入"},{"start":608.918,"end":629.527,"text":"對,不過這個還有一些細部討論,就是說眷屬,我的瞭解是有軍人眷屬的身份證,有包括父母、子女跟配偶,那究竟是如何?因為美國的話,他就是說一名軍人,然後可以有一名眷屬,那這個細節的部分我們再跟交通部商量一下。"},{"start":629.787,"end":647.219,"text":"好 我認為其實不只是薪資啦 其他的福裕 待遇跟像這種在交通上面或者是其他我們在日常生活中給予我們國軍弟兄一定的優先或者是一定的待遇的優惠我想這個也都是另外一種我們展現我們軍外民營進軍的一個方式我覺得我這邊要特別提出來就是說"},{"start":653.403,"end":673.038,"text":"這樣的一個措施 我說明就是說看似是一個平反 但是它事實上彰顯了要提升軍人的榮譽感軍人榮譽感的提升 在我看起來 我們從政策上來看如何能夠提升軍人榮譽感是一件非常重要的事情"}]}},{"id":"162406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9a69333cf24df9a8d8c2a0f21558b58c3f3738a47179c0652de7eaf727ba7c6f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:08:22 - 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各位委員還有我們的政府部門那本席針對道路交通安全處罰條例第21條的條文修正草案提出如下的意見跟重點也敬請各位委員們可以支持"},{"start":17.819,"end":37.412,"text":"首先我要強調的是今年台灣無照駕駛日趨嚴重根據數據顯示無照駕駛的違規案件五年內成長了22%每年造成超過700人的死亡跟4萬人的受傷社會成本高達千億元在兒少方面"},{"start":38.194,"end":40.878,"text":"從數據來看的話2013年到2023年間全國12到17歲的少年騎機車的每10萬人口死傷數從472人增加到666人成長了4成這日趨嚴重的趨勢"},{"start":55.917,"end":84.609,"text":"不僅體現無照駕駛違規對於道路安全的威脅以及對於兒少能否健全成長事實上自為關鍵更凸顯現行法規跟配套措施的不足我同樣也要提醒的是無照駕駛的累犯人數事實上這個比例事實上是驚人的統計顯示的話近三年的裁罰案件當中有三分之二是重複違規2023年的累犯人數更突破了14萬"},{"start":86.709,"end":113.235,"text":"這反映了單純依靠處罰可能難以根治的問題需結合系統性的措施那以下是本席提出的法律的立法的重點主要參考各國的法制以加重無照者違規的成本跟執法的效率為目標分為三大核心第一違規當下應該立即扣測考量無照駕駛屬於嚴重的危害道路交通安全的違規行為"},{"start":114.935,"end":116.282,"text":"那為了避免駕駛者在趁這個風氣在做駕駛"},{"start":119.184,"end":145.698,"text":"所以並且提高駕駛者違規使用車輛的門檻所以修正第一項 增訂當場一致保管該汽車的規定第二 強化汽車所有人善盡車輛管理的責任目前車輛所有人允許無照駕駛其汽車的處罰並未能涵蓋到車主本身就是無照駕駛者的情況這樣的情況特別容易發生在已經超過考照"},{"start":146.398,"end":166.419,"text":"年齡的違規者為了減少違規使用車輛的來源並加強汽車所有人善盡車輛保管責任參考現行條例第35條酒後駕車吊扣牌照的一個規定修正第6項增訂無照駕駛者吊扣汽車牌照的處罰第三加強同乘者的連帶責任"},{"start":167.8,"end":191.61,"text":"透過同乘者的連帶處罰可適時增加無照駕駛的他律的一個機制要求乘客共同負起防制無照駕駛行為的責任參考現行條例的第35條酒駕同車乘車的規定增訂第8項規定無照駕駛同車處罰的規定所以反請我們的在場的委員能夠支持"}]}},{"id":"162405","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162405","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c941592cb9e611ae648c2a0f21558b58c3f3738a47179c06523f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:05:18 - 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謝謝趙偉各位委員還有我們交通部各位官員大家早安本席提案道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第92條之2條文的草案僅提出提案說明汽車駕駛執照說明汽車駕駛人經體檢及考試及格後才予以發證且汽車駕駛人考慮駕照時他的體格以及體能一般都為正常的狀況"},{"start":33.655,"end":55.969,"text":"但因為年紀的增加增長或者因因故患有視覺功能障礙的時候比如說失智症癲癇或其他注意影響汽車駕駛的疾病的時候皆可能在駕駛人上路的時候導致無法預期的意外發生我們從最近媒體的報導多起車禍的事故中我們看到很多高齡的駕駛"},{"start":57.49,"end":74,"text":"因為駕車時發生注意力不足或駕駛操作不當的情況也有肇事後他自稱說因為他癲癇發作所以這些意外都造成不幸的傷亡並讓許多的家庭破碎"},{"start":74.941,"end":91.488,"text":"因此本題新增提案道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第92條之二的條文將駕駛人的體格或體能的變化有不符合道路交通安全規則第64條第一項鎖定考領駕駛執照的情形時應依該規則第76條第一項第五款的規定迅速將駕駛執照繳回我們公路監理機關"},{"start":102.473,"end":127.083,"text":"應我們為維護汽車駕駛人駕車時自身以及我們其他用路人的安全應重新審查其駕駛執照的資格此外也要明訂公路主管機關得加緊相關機關提供符合視覺功能障礙失智症、癲癇等特定情形者之資料以休先通知其重新辦理駕駛執照的審查資格"},{"start":129.244,"end":145.126,"text":"且公務主管機關經查了相關資料後確認汽車駕駛人之體格或體能變化有符合道路交通安全規則第64條第一項所定執行也應該通知駕駛人於規定的期限內重新辦理駕駛執照的資格審查"},{"start":147.409,"end":167.319,"text":"並規範汽車駕駛人藉其為辦理駕駛執照資格的審查者的後續規定處理機制敬請各位委員支持本席的提案讓我們行人的用戶安全以及駕駛人的行車規範都能夠有效的提升避免我們意外車禍的發生以上 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本院委員邱六華等21人拟據農業保險法第二條及第10條條文修正草案三 本院委本院臺灣民眾黨黨團拟據農業保險法第二條及第10條條文修正草案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1961.755,"end":1971.496,"text":"本人議程所討論事項共計有三個提案版本現在先請提案委員說明提案要旨請謝一鋒委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":1982.281,"end":1999.156,"text":"主席所有與會的官員大家好我們現在要修的是農業保險法第10條我們知道說2020年的平均氣溫是24.6度是目前上氣溫最暖的一年"},{"start":1999.816,"end":2022.928,"text":"而之後的年平均溫度雖然都沒有超越2020年但是根據中央氣象署的統計分析發現我們台灣現在年均溫都有上升的趨勢同樣的我們台灣的日雨量也超過了350毫米或者是三小時累積雨量200毫米以上的天數"},{"start":2024.349,"end":2042.476,"text":"我們2022年有14天是目前最高的紀錄雖然之後沒有超過14天但是下豪雨的天數也是逐漸的增加108年到112年天災所造成的農業損失我們估計是540億467萬顯見極端氣候所造成的災損是"},{"start":2054.2,"end":2078.355,"text":"持續的攀升從事農業的風險具高度的不確定性所以現在現行法說定定的依實施年限遞減補助的規定將面對無法解決農民所面臨的風險所以本席認為應該修正依實施年限遞減補助的落日條款改為授權給農業部建立"},{"start":2080.776,"end":2099.37,"text":"以风险为导向的动态补助的制度来精准扶持高风险的弱势农民并配合未来国家的食粮食安全政策优先保障战略作物的生产任性以上谢谢谢谢谢一芬委员"},{"start":2117.431,"end":2121.296,"text":"現在請農業部陳俊濟部長就委員提案進行報告"},{"start":2133.228,"end":2155.448,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生今天立法院經濟財政兩委會的第三次聯席會議審查有關於謝依鳳等16人凝聚的農業保險法第10條修正條文的草案以及邱若驊等21人及台灣民眾黨團凝聚農業保險法第二條及第10條條文修正草案那以下本部緊就"},{"start":2157.049,"end":2174.438,"text":"現在目前有關於農業保險的一個實施的現況跟委員所提的版本的一些分析向在座各位的委員做說明首先先說明農業保險辦理的概況那就誠如剛才委員所提到的"},{"start":2175.94,"end":2188.05,"text":"農業的經營風險逐漸的提高是因為現在目前前後的不穩定性特別是極端天候的頻率越來越高為了協助農民分散經營風險穩定他的經營收入農業部在106年起就擴大推動農業保險"},{"start":2194.374,"end":2207.163,"text":"也承蒙大院通過的農業保險法並於110年1月1日實施架構了整個農業保險的一個運作機制目前農業保險已開辦了28項44張的保單覆蓋率已出現了0.93%提升到53.72%自推動以來整個理賠有12.5萬件總理賠金額超過了60.6億元"},{"start":2222.153,"end":2228.524,"text":"有效的發揮損害填補的一個功能實質保障受災農民的一個收入"},{"start":2230.069,"end":2249.655,"text":"其次來說明提升農業保險的一個精進作為那也因應歷次的委員一直要求我們農業保險的這些保單的設計或保單的這些評估要作為有更精進的作為那為了因應氣候變遷及農民的需求我們本部也持續滾動檢視來精進保證能源農並擴大"},{"start":2254.056,"end":2271.146,"text":"公開品項例如我們在113年新增了水域的保險那114年也剛剛也公告了所謂的那個豐數參數的翻地資的一個保險那此外為了扣合產業輔導及獎勵措施我們也辦理相關的教育訓練"},{"start":2272.988,"end":2292.321,"text":"講習、研習會及助談會等並運用多種管道來透過新聞稿、臉書等貼文來加強宣導保險跟風險管理的意識期待有更多的農民來參與同時我們也簡化了投保理賠的程序開發整合投保理賠的系統性資訊"},{"start":2293.742,"end":2312.538,"text":"並鼓勵我們產檢公司開發氣象參數型的保單氣象數據達到理賠基準就可以啟動相關的理賠來提供農民的一個即時的一個補償那接著就針對委員的提案我們在這邊做一個說明那本次委員共凝聚三個修正版本"},{"start":2313.098,"end":2333.577,"text":"那除配合行政院組織改造後修正第二條主管機關的權限由原來的農業委員會改成農業部以外那最主要是針對第十條刪除第一項實施第六年以上補助上限的規定並增列要求主管機關因事農業發展需求定期檢討調整"},{"start":2334.998,"end":2347.49,"text":"那針對第10條有關於增列定期檢討的規定那本部就農業保險補助比例系一我們的產業概況、政策目的及推動狀況等通盤檢討並定期的滾動的檢視在113年12月18日我們修正了農業保險保費的一個補助辦法"},{"start":2357.099,"end":2379.828,"text":"我們將餘產的保險費補助的比例由三分之一我們提升到二分之一那這也是一個例子就是在法的授權之下我們可以適度的調整這些保費的一個補利那現行的做法其實已經跟委員提案所增列的規定的意旨是相符的那第二個部分要說明的就是"},{"start":2381.068,"end":2398.725,"text":"農業的保險是透過保險來協助農民重視風險然後建立風險分攤與管理的一個概念那保費乃是獲得保險的保障的一個對價那農民負擔部分的保費"},{"start":2400.848,"end":2414.867,"text":"可以明顯的避免一些道德的規範那第十條系參考各國的部分補助的一個辦法朝野共識下當年所定的前五年保費是以75%為上限那第六年"},{"start":2415.948,"end":2431.558,"text":"起以60為上限那這樣的一個設計是有利於強化農民自主管理然後適時採取防範措施的動力以及提升農業經營任性有關那根據農業保險法補助的比例乃是針對中央政府的規範那農業部"},{"start":2433.919,"end":2457.38,"text":"現行規定是依二分之一為原則然後並鼓勵地方政府加碼所以我在這邊也再次強調就是相關的規定是規範在中央主管機關我們的保費的一個補助那以農業部來講我們現在補助的標準大概是二分之一除了強制性保險有到八成或百分之百以外但是地方政府會因為地方的"},{"start":2458.041,"end":2472.952,"text":"地方的各種作物的特殊性那地方政府他也可以得以給予加碼的補助那這個加碼的補助並不會受到這個上限而受限換句話說如果地方政府"},{"start":2474.292,"end":2498.825,"text":"中央政府補助50% 地方政府願意補助30%的時候它的整個政府的補助是80% 農民只要出20%那這樣的方式也是合於規定的 最近要特別去說明我們用這樣的一個設計 其實除了能夠適時減輕農民的負擔並有利於中央與地方協力來推動農業保險來加大政策的效益 來分散農民的經營風險"},{"start":2500.126,"end":2528.003,"text":"那最後我想現在分階段補助上限的規定是在109年經六法院三讀通過那現在才實施四年多那如果現在刪除了第六條上限的百分之六十的文士那就農業部的立場來講這樣的一個刪除本身它有可能是不再給予補助也有可能是補助可以達到百分之百因為純粹只是把文士刪除而已"},{"start":2528.763,"end":2541.851,"text":"那實際上的作為還是由農業部本身透過我們的機動的管理機動的調整像現在目前我們是定在75%為上限但是我們大部分的保單還是50%還有一些彈性所以我們建議說這個條文事實上"},{"start":2547.375,"end":2566.288,"text":"可以能夠不修那是最好的那農業部也會定期的做相關的滾動檢視而且我們也會跟地方政府來協力來達到一個就是雙贏的一個政策那以上報告敬請各位委員指教好謝謝請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2569.67,"end":2599.062,"text":"没有哦那议事录确定现在财政部跟行政院主纪总处的书面报告请委员自行参阅并列入公报记录现在进行询答委员质询前原例作以下宣告每位委员发言时间联席会委员6分钟必要时得延长2分钟非本会委员5分钟上午10点30分截止发言登记首先请邱毅英委员做询答"},{"start":2609.726,"end":2610.67,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下部長"},{"start":2619.369,"end":2640.558,"text":"部長好部長針對我們今天要談的這個農業保險法的修正條文的部分剛您的報告裡面其實有談到就是說我們這個保費是對於農民風險管理的這個所謂的對價補助過高可能會怕會降低他自主管理的動力大概你們列了幾點第二個是這個法條其實是在109年才三讀通過"},{"start":2642.699,"end":2656.477,"text":"距今也差不多是五年前差不多五年了而且你們在食物上已經有執法跟所謂的行政裁量權去做這一些彈性的調整可是部長您剛剛講的這一些部分"},{"start":2657.577,"end":2671.972,"text":"我是同意但是有沒有想過其實我們現在有一些有一些作物或者是有一些品項其實你的補助已經超過了百分之百那如果你又不修法的話"},{"start":2672.873,"end":2696.66,"text":"那在未來在橫貧上面會不會產生極大的落差這一點我是不是能夠請部長您來說明一下比如說我們的水稻收入保險它雖然不是強制但是水稻收入保險的基本型它基本上已經算是百分之百嘛除非你是要去補你是要去加保投保所謂的加強型你才是自己要再多付費百分之應該是15左右吧"},{"start":2698.012,"end":2720.429,"text":"那如果是這樣那包括你說強制保險那就不算在此列了你不是誅之的這個叫強制保險所以這個補助當然也是百分之百所以部長我再請教一下您剛剛講的這些部分有沒有做一些彈性調整的可能性或者是說你在橫平性上面有沒有再去做一些思考來部長"},{"start":2721.701,"end":2747.951,"text":"業委員的提問那我先說明一下水稻的基本型的保險它是屬於一種由原來的天然災害整個移轉過來的所以它把我們利用天然災害過去幾年的一個受災的金額直接移到保險的額度來然後農民就不用再出錢了所以它屬於一種類似強制型的一個保險它不需要出保費的這種概念那其他的像租資啊"},{"start":2748.351,"end":2773.045,"text":"那像有一些比較大的政策型的保險那在原來的法裡面就有所謂的排除在外的部分這第一個說明那第二個說明就是委員剛才也提到一個重點就是保費的補助是一件事情但是我們怎麼樣讓保單的設計更合理更有利才能夠讓農民有意願投保當投保的農民越多的時候他的風險的分散越廣"},{"start":2774.406,"end":2790.448,"text":"那他的保費就會越低那個才是我們需要更積極去處理的所以如果就這一方面我想整個宣導跟整個配套似乎還是不太夠啦很多農民對於我其實不太贊成就是說你全額補助他保費"},{"start":2791.589,"end":2807.883,"text":"這樣對農民來講他沒有那一種投保的概念跟想法 換講中建戶的步驟啊他也不會想要去投保所以有沒有可能就是說我覺得主管機關你們應該是要去做一個所謂的定期檢討補助比例這樣的一個檢討機制檢討原則如果"},{"start":2810.905,"end":2819.111,"text":"不同意修法那是不是有一些動態滾動性的調整這些檢討甚至說我們要去讓農民更清楚所謂的農業保險對農民的保障這個區塊我認為農業部也應該要加緊腳步因為其實人都會去做人壽保險更何況是去做作務"},{"start":2834.062,"end":2853.762,"text":"那這一次的稻米欠收空炮彈的事件其實對農民來講他就了解到保險的重要性所以很多農民他是投保基本型的他其實沒有去做所謂的加強型的所以那一天我們到大寮到美濃去跟農民做對談的時候農民就會知道說原來還有一個加強型"},{"start":2854.683,"end":2880.438,"text":"所以它的補助是會增加的它的理賠金額是會增加的我覺得像這一些不管是滾動性的檢討或者是宣導應該都要加強就是在農業部來說你們應該都要加強讓農民理解這件事情很多人都會遇到天災的時候才會知道說保險的重要性但是還沒有遇到天災之前其實我們都應該要加強宣導你同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":2881.291,"end":2909.676,"text":"好 謝委員也提醒 我想宣導一定要再更積極的去做那另外的滾動式的檢討其實我們最近就在研議就是因為我剛才說的我們希望保險是一個長期性每年都能夠投保而不是好像又跟天氣對賭那如果我們再考慮說如果它連續的對它從事的作物連續保的話我們會給予保費的優惠那其實保費的優惠的概念其實就是政府增加補助的比例啦"},{"start":2910.276,"end":2925.876,"text":"所以用這種保費的優惠的概念去取代我們政府的保費提高所以不然您剛講的這個概念其實也是一種滾動式的檢討啦我不直接取消就是我不直接說你全部的保費都是政府出但是你如果連續投保"},{"start":2927.818,"end":2936.225,"text":"那我政府會給你再更多的一些優惠或者是鼓勵我覺得像這樣子的滾動式檢討是不是能夠就這個修法的層面上來說農業部能不能整理一個你們的相對應的政策出來到時候我們如果再進入主條的時候其實可以有更深入的一些討論"},{"start":2948.936,"end":2977.638,"text":"好 謝謝委員給我們這樣的機會我想在正式主條討論的時候我們會把更精進的滾動檢討的機制跟可能涵蓋的方向也讓委員了解所以你大概也知道說哪一些品項包括你要不要用品項去做分類你要做怎麼樣的分類標準補助標準或者是什麼我覺得可能你們內心大概也都有做一些評估報告可能在我們在進入主條的時候可能這個要請農業部來提出來好 我們一定到時候會提供"},{"start":2978.579,"end":3006.107,"text":"那接下来我要跟部长您提到最近大概你们也知道昨天傍晚我看到农业部也发布一个讯息日本米的米价飙升所以呢这对台湾来讲是一个很好的契机我看到你们的报告台湾的米销日本单单在今年的二月份它的涨幅是700%多所以整体来说台湾米销到日本去"},{"start":3007.848,"end":3032.628,"text":"應該是有大幅的競爭力的對不對好這個是你們整理出來的這個年增率喔今年的二月份年增率是768%喔是部長我最近有送你這個你有收到嗎應該有吧你如果沒有收到應該不曉得是不是被幕僚偷吃掉了齁這是我們美濃優質好米美濃147米是現在正在盛產是"},{"start":3034.11,"end":3055.517,"text":"我就在想說其實我們一直在講說這個公糧補助啊什麼的我們一直在講我們要鼓勵農民種好米種了好米之後你這樣遇到像日本像鄰近國家有這種糧食荒的時候其實我們的米就可以在這個時候去外銷出去日本買得到"},{"start":3056.477,"end":3077.376,"text":"部長您看一下這個照片其實日本是買得到台灣米的依照我們現在現行的這個數字上來看但是呢這個台灣米它沒有品種它沒有很明確的出現說比如說它這個米是哪裡來的它只有告訴你是台灣的米但是比如說像我們美濃的147米"},{"start":3078.897,"end":3100.118,"text":"他有沒有可能我們未來有一個品牌化可以銷到日本去讓大家知道說你在日本買到的是高雄的好米是池上的好米是哪裡的好米有沒有可能去做這樣的一個去做這樣的一個政策宣導或者是說做外銷的這樣的一個推動"},{"start":3100.902,"end":3125.908,"text":"我想委員提醒的齁 我非常認同 而且我覺得也應該這麼做如果說我們我們消毒日本米都只是寫台灣產的米那就不能凸顯地方的特色所以我們現在一直積極能夠讓我們產地的農會也好或是比較大的集團產區的話我們會協助他做品牌的建構然後去對接對方的通路這樣的話就能夠直接把我們地區的這些米的品牌直接帶上架"},{"start":3126.688,"end":3152.1,"text":"這個方式我想我們會積極來推動其實過去現在時代已經在轉變部長你可能會知道過去台灣人到日本去旅行的時候會很習慣帶一包日本米回來大家都說日本米很好吃現在已經不一樣了現在是台灣人去日本會習慣把台灣米帶過去給日本的朋友分享那當然這樣子帶出關會有一些簡易的問題這個就"},{"start":3153.86,"end":3175.552,"text":"後話啦這個簡易的部分就後話再談但是就是說台灣米現在已經受到市場上的侵爛但我覺得就農業部來講我們應該要更努力的去推展我們所謂的台灣自由品牌米不管是池上不管是美濃不管是其他的任何的地方"},{"start":3176.913,"end":3195.248,"text":"優質好米這件事情我們都應該要盡全力的來推動好嗎我想跟委員報告我們不能因為只是日本現在缺米我們趁機會把米外銷我們希望說米的外銷到日本是一個持續性的工作他必須建立一個完整的供應鏈必須建立相關的品牌跟通路的系統"},{"start":3196.048,"end":3208.919,"text":"我們會朝向這個方向來努力那未來如果日本米它本身的供應量還恢復穩定的時候我們還是能夠持續的去供應我們的U子米到它的高端的市場其實我覺得台灣米是有競爭力的啦我認為"},{"start":3211.221,"end":3228.854,"text":"日本你的這個米荒解除之後大家如果吃到台灣米吃到好吃大家也會回來買所以我覺得我們自己的品牌建立這件事情是很重要的這個我期待請農業部能夠趕快的去做相關的規劃"},{"start":3230.475,"end":3256.698,"text":"那我順便趁這個機會跟委員說明也許讓我們的消費者知道如果說我們帶米要到日本去送禮的時候只要是6公斤以下的話你可以直接在機場那邊檢疫就可以了我們在機場有一個檢疫的服務不需要說事前要去做那個所謂檢疫證的取得在機場可以有一個通路通關可以直接處理那日本帶回來的呢"},{"start":3257.481,"end":3266.184,"text":"日本帶回來的相對的應該在日本那邊我覺得你們可能要把那個流程稍微把它整理一下讓民眾也清楚啦我們會盡量的宣導好 謝謝現在請林德福委員做詢答謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":3281.623,"end":3288.288,"text":"議會的各部會的官員是不是請農委會農業部的陳部長陳部長原長部長你好"},{"start":3298.823,"end":3311.859,"text":"因為農村人力不足那為解決這個缺工的問題那政府啊除了積極推動以這個農業機具來替代人力外其中推動遙控無人機啊這個來噴藥"},{"start":3315.982,"end":3338.404,"text":"四維的比例逐漸的增加無人機噴藥通常省時、省錢、省力、省能力農民不用暴露在高濃度的這些農藥的環境裡面但偶爾有污染林田的這些爭議的發生不問農民施行有機耕作"},{"start":3339.125,"end":3359.738,"text":"或無農藥無撕毀的自然農法卻因為林田使用無人機的噴灑這些農藥的撕毀而受到影響那污染到自家的作物對此農業部對於無人機噴灑農藥撕毀如何避免污染使用"},{"start":3360.658,"end":3378.244,"text":"有機農法或這個無農藥的這些林田有沒有一些配套的措施好 謝謝委員那的確就是說針對無人機去噴藥的時候有可能去污染到林田那其實我們農業部在無人機第一個無人機噴藥的時候它必須要有雙證照"},{"start":3380.364,"end":3406.323,"text":"必須要取得技術上的認可第二個就是說我們已經有相關的一個規範包括操作的規範那更重要就是我們建設了全台灣的RTK那所謂的RTK就是無人機它可以定位到幾公分的距離那這樣噴的時候就不容易外到其他的林田去啦那第三個就是萬一有噴到的時候我們有一個所謂的鑑定的一個制度"},{"start":3407.243,"end":3419.209,"text":"能夠來確定有鑑定的制度是有一個鑑定的制度因為我們不希望說這個事情經常發生而且如何去避免農田飄落林田發生糾紛這個事情的發生部長"},{"start":3423.271,"end":3438.634,"text":"你有沒有說更好的方式我想我們現在也在積極推動因為畢竟我們現在目前雖然在推有機專區但是有部分的有機點它是跟傳統點在一起的所以在那種臨界地的時候我們就推動它有保護行的概念"},{"start":3439.495,"end":3457.915,"text":"就是說它雙邊都有一些保護行就是它不要在那裡用無人機去噴那這樣的話無人機如果沒有飛的依照我們的規定在珠貫4公尺以下的話它的風速在3米以下的話就不會飄散所以有保護行的制度它會避免它的臨天的污染這個很重要啦那個部長"},{"start":3459.144,"end":3485.681,"text":"美國今年4月宣布將對各國實施對等關稅後來又宣布90天的暫緩期那美方要求各國在6月4號以前要提最佳的提案在7月8號以前這些關稅暫緩期限到期前完成談判對此總統賴清德曾表示說我國將展開以零關稅為基礎"},{"start":3488.282,"end":3514.6,"text":"對美談判許多的農民認為台灣稻米產業認為將會因此受到嚴重的衝擊陸續有農民上街抗議認為開放美國稻米零關稅進口將犧牲台灣糧食的安全那陳部長你也說不會發生進口稻米零關稅那我請問這是對國人的承諾嗎"},{"start":3516.252,"end":3533.134,"text":"我跟委員報告現在台美的關稅正在談判中那談判的細節我不方便講但是你有講啊你說不會發生啊我還沒講完就是以農業的立場來講我們一定是在確保糧食安全的前提之下確保產業永續的前提之下"},{"start":3533.735,"end":3549.31,"text":"那我也承諾就是說我盡我們農業部的可能我們絕對不會讓稻米在這一波的關稅裡面去處理到零關稅甚至於我們都不希望稻米現在的制度而做任何的調整這是我們農業部的一個立場好"},{"start":3550.091,"end":3553.997,"text":"那政策要是跳票誰負責請問農業部你除了今年五月初農業部有派員赴美參與對美關稅的談判外後續六月還有再進一步磋商談判嗎"},{"start":3564.232,"end":3580.849,"text":"不過我想整個台北的談判是考慮到因為不只是農業不只是工業農業有非常非常多的品項所以我們考慮的是整個農業的最大的利益而且是農業能夠跟美國貿易雙贏的政策之下去處理的所有的談判的一個細節"},{"start":3581.71,"end":3595.867,"text":"但是到目前為止其實整個關稅的談判如在物理看花美國講的對講的是我們這個要去爭取到目前為止人民真的還看不到"},{"start":3597.679,"end":3620.976,"text":"那個陳部長日本近年來有米荒現象那台灣米2025年外銷日本預估全年銷量會超過1萬公噸但有日本民眾投書媒體分析台灣米出口日本市場的現象該名日本民眾認為日本米荒風波過去價格回落"},{"start":3622.13,"end":3642.513,"text":"哪怕台灣米與日本米的售價相當日本消費者會主動選擇台灣米的可能性能相當有限那我請問農業部台灣米外銷日本的銷量增加從長遠來看曇花一現還是可以穩定的成長你的看法呢"},{"start":3642.873,"end":3671.003,"text":"我剛才就提到了就是我們現在削日本的米的策略絕對不是因為它短期的短缺而大量的去推廣我們要建立的是整個完整的供應鏈我們要建立的是透過我們的品牌透過我們的品質跟美國的通路做鏈接去達到特定族群的市場那這樣的一個市場那個機制不管你未來日本稻米本身是不是回穩我們都還是能夠進攻一定的市場這才是我們的目標好"},{"start":3671.963,"end":3682.326,"text":"那個部長 會後你就提供本席書面資料說明112年到114年台灣米外銷日本政府有沒有補助相關的預算 有沒有"},{"start":3683.223,"end":3702.875,"text":"我想我們有很多相關的行銷還有包括品牌包括產地包括像極端產區有沒有我們希望是用氣做極端產區那這方面我們都有一些協助你會後給本席分資料我們再提供資料那個部長本席持續關注這個豬肉的價格民眾反映豬肉價格還在高檔"},{"start":3703.855,"end":3731.252,"text":"6月9日新北市毛豬的交易行情為例每公斤102.72元行政院穩定物價小組關注17項重要的民生物質其中豬肉漲幅最高來到6.9%創14個月的新高而中華民國養豬協會理事長認為目前的豬價1公斤破百元是合理的價格"},{"start":3732.113,"end":3744.229,"text":"喊話行政院物價穩定小組不要出手那豬肉破百價格請問農業部端午過後豬肉價格是否可以回檔你的看法呢"},{"start":3745.183,"end":3761.336,"text":"我們現在評估認為現在的豬肉價格在95到100之間是一個合理的價格那因為現在目前的豬的飼料跟成本跟幾年前都不可以相比那我們的目標是希望我們農業的生產能夠持續的生產國產的豬肉那你認為會回檔嗎"},{"start":3766.724,"end":3773.107,"text":"我想就在這個區間再跑再跑 還是會維持到中秋因為目前農業部任認為的這個豬肉合理價格因為你認為應該是多少才是合理價格"},{"start":3779.332,"end":3796.75,"text":"我們昨天大概是99塊已經不會再帶超過100塊只是短時間一天的那個那我們希望是控制在95到100之間但是要是超過農業部會採取哪些豬肉價格調節的措施我想批發價格會跟你的"},{"start":3797.771,"end":3806.565,"text":"批發的投訴是有關的所以當他的價格已經有些偏離的時候我們就會進場調節他的批發的投訴進場的數量那這樣的話就能夠讓他的價格穩定在95到100之間好"},{"start":3813.095,"end":3834.472,"text":"最後一個議題2024年颱風接二連三侵台造成許多榮損以香蕉為例颱風造成整體香蕉產量大幅的減少那香蕉價格屢創新高甚至於一百多塊一斤不是一公斤那目前農業部目前的整個香蕉的產量以價格"},{"start":3835.967,"end":3861.269,"text":"有沒有回穩現在價格已經回穩了齁回穩 以前齁我去買的時候是20塊一斤啦現在是差不多40塊因為我常年都有在吃這邊大概是25塊左右25塊 一斤喔市場價才25塊啊 差不多啦它那個比這個高啦 高很多啦114年度這個香蕉收入保險投保的情況如何"},{"start":3862.694,"end":3887.623,"text":"我們香蕉的投保人數我可能會有再提供給劉先生你們要提啊 這個你們其實要去關注啦是不是有比113年成長今年有多少香蕉種植面積 有參加投保大概是為時 那我跟委員報告因為香蕉的收入保險是基準產量乘以價格那因為它量少 但是量少的比例比價格高的 漲幅有沒有"},{"start":3888.263,"end":3915.705,"text":"因為價格漲幅太高了所以兩個一層的時候變成保險就不容易理賠到或是理賠的比較少那這個部分我們也在關切也在看看說保單有沒有可以調整的空間部長交農部參加這個相交收入表現的主要原因為何政府如何讓農友來體認農作物保險支出也是農業生產成本的一環我認為這個很重要"},{"start":3918.18,"end":3935.68,"text":"我想我們會在根基因為香蕉比較特殊因為香蕉一個園子裡面有當年生的有第二年生的它是比較沒有一致性然後香蕉從高雄屏東到南投的部分它的產地跟價格區間也比較大"},{"start":3936.261,"end":3952.577,"text":"所以我們現在用區域型的保險看看可不可以讓他更集中我們的數據比較好調查我希望農業部在這方面多去加強去要求跟控管謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝現在請鄭振淺委員做詢答"},{"start":3965.203,"end":3966.626,"text":"謝主席 我想請一下農業部陳部長陳部長"},{"start":3977.105,"end":4004.4,"text":"部長好因為今天主席特別安排了一個農保條例的審查那你剛才有特別針對說對於這次委員提出的版本其實農業部希望是先不去做這個調整那我想說因為在你的報告當中就有特別提到說到114年4月30號之後我們的農保覆蓋率有53.72%對不對那我想說因為這裡面能夠這麼高因為很大一部分是因為有強制納保的一個部分"},{"start":4005.04,"end":4021.257,"text":"那我想說如果扣除掉水稻跟豬肢的強生老婆還有20.7那聽起來也是挺高的比當時那個之前的陳宜仲部長他期待的數字還要高那我想特別看一下因為我針對這個也是"},{"start":4023.519,"end":4049.349,"text":"今年的4月30號當中的時候也是一個農業保險那個投保情況的表當中的時候我發現裡面有一些狀態數字其實坦白說很不漂亮啦比方說以禽流感來講的時候比方說我們看到說它整個投保的租資大概是716萬支可是部長你知道說我們整個那個台灣這邊所有的那個機資總共有多少支你知道嗎"},{"start":4050.914,"end":4069.826,"text":"豬肉還是雞?雞雞雞雞的部分多少隻?三億一千萬三億?三億一千萬隻三億一千萬隻如果三億一千萬隻只有700隻的話它的比例非常非常的低啦那我想說除了說禽流感這個部分我們如果有三億多隻的雞隻的時候呢"},{"start":4071.147,"end":4094.845,"text":"那跟這個部分 因為你的數字更大那表示統計的一個標準不一樣可是我們看到整個一個投保的一個機織顯然數字非常的低 非常的低那我另外再挑出一個狀態剛剛那邊特別提到了一個香蕉的一個植株的部分我們香蕉這邊目前只有79公頃我們全台灣香蕉的面積 種植面積有多大"},{"start":4096.932,"end":4108.399,"text":"大概1萬5、1萬6所以這比例也非常非常的低只有0.48% 0.5%都不到這數字也非常的不漂亮那另外的部分針對那個豬隻的運輸"},{"start":4113.021,"end":4133.896,"text":"跟豬隻的死亡的相關的保險數字也都很差豬隻的運輸的部分的時候大概只有我看到說如果說我們保險的數字只有25萬隻的時候相較於整體的台灣的一個豬隻來說比例大概5%不到那如果是針對死亡的部分的時候只有0.25%更低那我想說針對這樣子的一個狀態的是因為你剛剛提到說那個"},{"start":4138.959,"end":4166.385,"text":"排除掉我們強制納保的部分還有20%以上這數字看起來本來是不錯的數字可當我們看到這細部 個別品項我們必須有一些低的我們必須要去檢討那您剛才說的豬隻的運輸的保險的部分因為現在是自願式的嘛那我們會考量因為它從生產端到運輸端到土甲端我們希望是連在一起的所以我們會考慮它的強制性然後特別我也跟委員報告其實"},{"start":4167.465,"end":4190.393,"text":"這個平均20.7%裡面其實水產才是我們更需要去加強的那因為水產本身現在我所知道的投保率大概只有2.7%左右所以它也把整體的那個平均的保險規格率拉下來所以後續我們會針對比較特殊的品項包括您剛才講的香蕉如何去增進它的保險的"},{"start":4191.573,"end":4214.154,"text":"投保意願那很重要就是保費啦跟理賠金額農民本身的認知跟我們在做精算的時候的認知是不太一樣的所以我會盡可能讓農民了解很多保險他的保費比較高是因為他的風險高的時候他比保費的保費保額就會變高那這個部分可能"},{"start":4214.915,"end":4231.185,"text":"可能都要做更多的宣導理解 因為就像我們比方說一般人的保險不然是受險或者是殘險的部分它也是經過很長的時間的溝通然後慢慢讓民眾能夠接受農業保險這樣的一個新的概念從110年到現在開始推動的時候其實也就是大概4年5年不到的時間"},{"start":4235.327,"end":4259.308,"text":"所以我們希望這過程當中其實能夠農業部這邊能夠加緊一些腳步因為本系也認為農業保險是一件好的事情就不能只靠政府的一個天災救助的部分來解決農業的一個問題所以我們也希望說能夠透過民間然後市場的一個農業保險的方式的時候能夠讓台灣的農業更為茁壯然後讓農民能夠得到更大的一個保障那這過程當中我們就希望說農業部這邊有更"},{"start":4261.169,"end":4278.296,"text":"扎實然後更有強大的一個力量去推動它讓民眾能夠讓農民能夠真正知道說農業保險對他們的重要性所以我剛剛特別提到這個部分就是說20.7的數字感覺很漂亮可是細部來看的時候事實上是很不足的尤其像剛剛針對禽牛桿這部分數字就更低了所以我們希望說部長這邊針對這農業保險推廣的時候能夠更加緊"},{"start":4285.338,"end":4311.119,"text":"動作讓農民能夠真正了解好不好好我想我們會來努力來朝這個保單的一個我一直強調跟委員報告我一直強調我不會去追求保單的數量增加我會去要求保單的品質提高讓每一個保單就有很多人投保很多人投保以後他的保費風險分擔就會變低了有大數法則之後才能夠真的得到保險的價值跟功效啦對 這個是我的目標"},{"start":4314.482,"end":4336.074,"text":"是 理解 那我想請教一下 因為那個想請教部長 就是我們今年整個紅火椅的那個相關的一個房子預算大概有多少錢紅火椅預算多少紅火椅將近三千萬左右將近三千萬 去年其實有三千兩百萬那我想問 琉璃椅這邊有沒有房子經費"},{"start":4337.802,"end":4344.289,"text":"琉璃椅的部分琉璃椅我們沒有防治經費沒有防治經費嘛齁那為什麼沒有防治經費勒齁"},{"start":4346.532,"end":4365.378,"text":"最主要是琉璃蟻它本身不直接危害作物就認為它不是農業害蟲嘛對不對所以我們沒辦法編相關的這個進度我想請教一下因為那個琉璃蟻在2019年的時候那時候農業部這邊有針對一個目前它的一個危害的範圍我想說當時講出來的狀態是有9個縣市24個鄉鎮"},{"start":4370.239,"end":4398.036,"text":"都有琉璃椅的一個那個危害的一個範圍那我想說有沒有最新的一個數字最新的數字是範圍是多大我現在手邊沒這個資料可能後續再提供給委員因為這裡面很特殊因為新竹市也在這個琉璃椅的一個肆虐的範圍當中那針對這個部分很多民眾他們去去投書或檢舉的時候呢其實我們看到了比方說"},{"start":4400.337,"end":4408.625,"text":"農業部這邊因為你剛剛提到說因為你覺得他不是一個農業害蟲所以沒有辦法去做太多的一個動作然後另外就是環境部這邊也認為說"},{"start":4410.814,"end":4431.162,"text":"琉璃椅它其實是從農業這邊來的它就應該是農業部在管所以環境部他們也不管衛福部這邊的時候呢認為說琉璃椅它沒有傳染疾病所以他們也不管所以變成琉璃椅就變成一個大家都不管的一個情況那本席是認為農業部這邊的時候是不是應該把這部分把它給"},{"start":4432.743,"end":4447.136,"text":"這個工作把它接起來而不是各部會當中大家不斷的推皮球那因為我們目前針對這個琉璃椅的部分目前的狀態就是說給他們一個幼稚嘛就幼稚那農業部這邊建議的狀態的時候就是糖水加膨沙"},{"start":4448.277,"end":4464.866,"text":"就是調整成一個右繼去處理這個問題可是這個部分對於豐農是有影響的所以我們認為說目前如果說農業部還是不把琉璃役當作是一個農業害蟲的時候這事情其實是沒有解的"},{"start":4465.266,"end":4491.32,"text":"他就繼續的去肆虐擴大更大的一個範圍所以本席這邊是不是希望部長這邊能夠把這個事情把它擔當起來因為它是不是有一個農業害蟲的部分它其實是定義的問題就像我們目前的琉璃蟻的幼稷有些學者就說它對於蜂農是產生影響的所以這個部分是不是有可能請部長把琉璃蟻這件事情當做一件事情來對待"},{"start":4492.821,"end":4517.079,"text":"我想跟委員報告以我的立場我們既然已經看到一個問題雖然說農業部的定義來講它不屬於農業害蟲但是相對的它的確也在田裡面造成了一些困擾特別是芽蟲跟寄馬這個部分我們是可以透過這個方式所以我很願意針對這個工作"},{"start":4519.581,"end":4541.061,"text":"能夠跟衛務部正式啟動一個跨部會的協調因為不能只有農業部做因為居家環境而且是要用區域防治的概念區域防治的概念才有可能去把它降到最低啦所以這個部分我想我願意啟動這樣的一個跨部會的一個平台而不是互相推不是我的不是你的這樣子"},{"start":4541.641,"end":4567.539,"text":"OK 謝部長我覺得這是一個很正面的態度來面對這個問題那我們也希望這個後續有一些進度的時候再隨時跟本辦公室做一個回報好不好可以那另外最後一個問題就是因為現在的一個對美的一個關稅貿易談判當中的時候我想特別關注一個狀態其實就是茶葉的一個部分那茶葉的部分的時候台灣目前茶葉輸美大概是佔整個台灣出口的三成左右大概31對 31%"},{"start":4569.58,"end":4589.62,"text":"但是31%當中的時候因為我們看到整個茶葉的一個狀態的時候我們會發現整個茶葉出口的部分其實是用一個拼配的一個方式在做處理那拼配的這邊的時候就是跟洗產地這邊的時候我們要怎麼去做定義"},{"start":4590.28,"end":4603.19,"text":"部長這邊可不可以簡單做一個說明我跟委員報告其實台灣最強的就是我們的拼配的技術但是我們為了讓我們的國產茶本身有它的一定的一定的"},{"start":4604.626,"end":4627.131,"text":"認同所以你要標示為台灣茶的時候一定是要100%的茶葉用台灣的茶不能用拼配的方式那第二個部分是當你出口的時候你有超過55%去做實質轉型的時候你可以去掛我們的產地的部分但是你的標示裡面你還是要去標你的茶葉裡面的來源國啦"},{"start":4627.651,"end":4642.977,"text":"那這樣的話就不會被認為是息產地你如果只標台灣茶去出口但是裡面你可能混到越南茶混到其他國家的茶的時候那就會被誤認為息產地但是你的標示裡面你如果誠實標示的話就不會這樣子"},{"start":4644.978,"end":4661.334,"text":"你提這個點其實本席可以理解台灣茶認為要百分之百才能夠標入台灣茶不過我覺得這邊有個概念是英國茶的概念英國其實並沒有產茶葉可是英國的茶葉風行全世界那他們其實也是某一個部分其實也用拼配的方式在做所有的"},{"start":4661.814,"end":4681.75,"text":"後續的一個製造跟程序所以說本席這邊也希望說藉由這樣的一個關稅談判過程當中的時候把台灣的一個所謂的拼配茶這樣的一個定義當中的時候讓它更清楚然後讓我們其實台灣的茶農在跟國外在做相關出口的時候能夠有一個比較好的一個對待"},{"start":4682.771,"end":4702.439,"text":"那在這邊就請部長這邊針對這個拼配查這個部分的時候我們能夠好好去做一個新的定義然後讓我們的國際的貿易對象也能夠去理解台灣這邊的一個政策好不好我想我們會針對拼配查本身怎麼樣有利於我們國內的拼配查的外銷我想這部分我們會來努力"},{"start":4702.839,"end":4717.648,"text":"是因為目前看起來來說說台灣目前國產的茶葉其實已經沒有進口的茶葉多了所以拼配茶這部分肯定是台灣的一個茶葉的業者他們其實很關注的一個部分好不好是謝謝部長好 謝謝好 謝謝現在請張祺凱委員做詢答"},{"start":4749.978,"end":4767.646,"text":"請 陳部長陳部長各位好 今天要來搶救人命要談一個很觸目驚心 嚇人的光電開發案因為現在紅台聽要來"},{"start":4772.52,"end":4801.074,"text":"不要造成小林村土石流滅村的事件重演我們要非常嚴肅的看這個有媒體報導也有民眾來陳情非常有急迫性的問題我們共同來解決這個案子是發生在高雄的大樹區51公頃的山坡地陡峭的山坡地喔竟然"},{"start":4802.446,"end":4809.101,"text":"山被鏟平了樹被砍掉了網友你看這個圖這是現場的圖"},{"start":4813.732,"end":4840.712,"text":"右邊啊 這個黃圈圈這一塊啊這個土 山都被鏟平了已經放了 那個就是光光電板 都已經潑上去了另外裸露的這個地區紅色圈起來 綠色圈起來整個那個拖鞋的 那個本來就是山整個山坡地被鏟平了哇靚 你有看到這裡住這麼多居民嗎現在居民要陳情那你 或是你親友 你覺得住在那裡嗎"},{"start":4843.988,"end":4868.794,"text":"部長 如果是你 後你的親友現在住在那邊你敢不敢住 安全嗎從這張圖來判斷說 現在這裡的房子的安全性啊保定 這個媒體已經大肆的報導了民眾都來陳情了欸 你本來小林村那個妹村事件啊 土石流"},{"start":4870.853,"end":4890.043,"text":"這高雄的大樹區耶第二個現在極端的氣候都是那個暴雨雨就下的都很大對不對突然就來啊結果怎麼去把一座山挖掉這座山坡地很多都是穿過30%的我們明定是30%以上的躲的這個山坡地是建築開發的耶"},{"start":4892.382,"end":4918.364,"text":"我跟委員報告喔30公斤以上必須去委會來做環評審查嘛那開發還有開發許可那相對的我們同仁跟我講的就是說這些他的整個環評的部分水保計畫是已經被開罰嗎?已經被開罰了非常多次啊五次開罰這麼多次然後又危險那為什麼不把他停下來捏?後台聽要來捏?不定"},{"start":4922.24,"end":4929.493,"text":"這個市政府的權責不是農業部可以處理的啊現在有三個主管機關嘛對不對水土保持是你們管的嘛"},{"start":4930.916,"end":4956.184,"text":"水土保障 計畫的審查計畫審查 還是 也是令啊但是在市政府 也是市政府在執行市政府當然 高雄市也是個主管機關所以高雄市政府開罰嘛 對不對對 它有兩種罰 一種是罰錢啊一種就是這麼危險 東京直接停了來啊停的部分是地方政府地方政府跟你都是主管機關啊 你當初合的嘛那它現在有危險性不是我們合的喔地方政府合的喔"},{"start":4956.904,"end":4977.82,"text":"水土保存是你們合的嗎?他整個開發案是地方政府合的啊地方政府合,水土保存你們不用管嗎?你們來說明一下吧因為我覺得這是要非常明確全責的單位啦如果說農業部必須要處理的,我們就要盡到我們農業部的責任如果不是農業部能處理的,我們也不能說在這邊隨便承諾"},{"start":4980.962,"end":4994.027,"text":"對不對經濟部當然他們負責一部分嘛對不對開發那一塊啊你們水土保持嘛甚至他他現在沒有發現他已經越區去開發破壞的水土保持你們當然要做啊另外一個是地方政府是不是這樣"},{"start":4995.553,"end":5015.033,"text":"對 它所有的最後的核定都是地方政府不管你是水保三開計畫最後的核定都是地方政府我們是督導我們是法規的部分最後的審查跟核定是水保計畫還有執行都是地方政府所以你們督導到哪裡去了"},{"start":5015.984,"end":5030.035,"text":"你們都不用負責任嗎我們針對我們針對相關的法規的規定啊那如果說有很明確的那個我們可以跟地方政府 因為地方政府是核定的部長 人命關天不要推責任因為我的個性因為我的個性也不會推責任我們共同解決問題嘛第一個你有督導這個責任嘛對不對因為你現在已經發現問題了是不是要共同來解決問題"},{"start":5039.153,"end":5066.971,"text":"我想如果他是一個問題的話我覺得我們應該有跟地方政府溝通的一個責任希望他們能夠去落實依法去處理這個我想我們一定會做到馬上再去溝通好不好來我們看一看危險性到哪邊來來看看這個問題當然出在中央跟地方都有狀況來你看看這麼大一個山51公頃他現在做光電板高達46"},{"start":5069.77,"end":5094.813,"text":"下一年營收可以有四億兩千萬我們政府在推光電的時候你們注意到人民的財產生命安全有沒有生態保護的這個問題還是你們重視的只是光電業者的利益呢當有衝突的時候當然立即趕快去處理啊你看這個多危險紅色圈圈現在是暗場所在的TG區紅色的你看"},{"start":5097.093,"end":5120.866,"text":"左邊這個地方是斷層地質敏感地帶離那個暗場大概只有不到5公里這麼近喔另外綠色這個線第三個劃過來了這個紅圈圈這個地方土壤異化高潛勢區另外還有一個順向坡右下角這個粉紅色的歷年來就發生過好幾次山坡地災害的位置了"},{"start":5122.441,"end":5143.197,"text":"這個地區這麼嚴重 結果以前已經有多次的這個受害了結果你把山挖山砍平 把樹砍掉這是政府跟農業部跟經濟部在推這個光電的原意嗎當人民的財產生命安全受到影響 生態受到影響的時候"},{"start":5145.263,"end":5173.26,"text":"光電業者的利益那麼重要嗎所有的光電的開發案或其他的開發案的話我想政府有一定的相關的審查的遊戲規則跟審查的基準那不管是在斷能地區所提到的或是高風險區的部分他的審查的條件會更嚴苛所以當他業者沒有照這個方式去處理的話就會所謂的剛才說的所謂的開罰的部分然後開罰到某個程度不行的話可能就會"},{"start":5174.281,"end":5191.55,"text":"廢紙嘛那這個部分我剛才說了如果是地方政府的權責我們會盡量去跟地方政府溝通但是相關的審查本身它有一定的標準而不是說我們為了光電的利益而去犧牲掉我們人民的安全這個我想我們絕對不會做正事"},{"start":5192.73,"end":5215.617,"text":"就是速度要快,我剛剛講了兩個第一我要講如果鬧出人命,不是只有財產受到影響鬧出人命就有刑責的問題嘛,對不對,這在那邊喔,要看起來喔第二個更重要怎麼說,訪台廳已經來了嘛現在大家已經注意到這個問題,趕快解決問題啊來,你現在一直在說葛永新高雄市陳其邁讓人家負責任嘛他暖男市長啊,有心急的"},{"start":5216.954,"end":5244.926,"text":"結果前陣子已經發生那個清達電廠3號機跟4號機沒有許可沒有許可的狀況之下開始燒煤炭大家已經去追他的責任啊這一個也是人命關天的啊他當然要負起責任啊他如果解決民調才會高嘛如果出入民調當然會掉下來嘛一樣啊中央部會從經濟部跟經濟部會追農業部讓我們負起責任嘛來看一下你們自己嘛水土保持法第十九條"},{"start":5246.815,"end":5271.709,"text":"這你管的嘛 對不對所以趕快跟地方好好去討論那個地方啊有那個南河岩那邊有一個南河岩水土保持這些都想你管的這裡沒有化為特定的水土保持區域所以就沒有所謂的禁止開發的行為所以當初那個水土保持完全都通過嗎 沒有任何問題嗎"},{"start":5272.898,"end":5278.361,"text":"沒有,我沒有參加這個審查我剛才說的,所謂的審查我們一定有一定的遊戲規則而且審查也不是一個人來決定它是一個召集相關的委員會去處理的啦所以"},{"start":5288.387,"end":5307.942,"text":"我現在不確定這個案子本身是不是如同你說的因為我沒有辦法從照片裡面畫出來的東西說說它是安全或是危險這我沒有辦法確認我會去確認說我也不會說因為媒體報導它危險就認定它危險我們一定會去更詳細的了解這個案子本身"},{"start":5308.643,"end":5332.335,"text":"以他的用專業的角度去看說他是不是真的是落實危險 如果是危險的話我們一定會第一時間跟縣市政府請他們提醒他們去做相關的事情部長我們跟時間下來 人命歡天 好來那我們解決問題來所以請農業部在一個禮拜內提出來你們當初怎麼核准這個案的開發的申請文件跟核准的資料"},{"start":5333.084,"end":5361.153,"text":"還有相關的這時間點可以嗎這是地方政府我剛才說的是地方政府核准的啊不是我們有關於你們的這個你們農業部當初完全沒有沒有參與嗎我們只有在農地沒有你們沒有角色呢當然也有經過你們啊農業部就廢掉了這麼重大事情怎麼可能也經過你們沒有我們可以表示意見但是我剛才講的決定權核准權是在內政部的區委會"},{"start":5362.557,"end":5371.954,"text":"不是農業部合或不合我們是在處理農地變更那農地變更本身如果區委會同意的時候我們才進行農地變更這樣子"},{"start":5373.206,"end":5402.305,"text":"你們是督導嘛 你剛才說要隨機高雄市政府聯絡嘛 對不對對 我們會來協調 但是我剛才說的我們不是全責單位 我們沒辦法直接介入至少對你的全責督導那部分來你兩座內 請高雄市政府把那個 還有你農業部當初怎麼核准的水保計畫 我說的 我們沒有核准嘛怎麼一直叫我們拿核准的文件 我們沒有核准啊所以你們完全在水保計畫這塊完全不負責任嗎所以 老實講老實講 要主管的講 怎麼可能完全沒有我請我們的法治好不好"},{"start":5404.259,"end":5429.924,"text":"我們一定的規則不是說照規則當然有督導啦有參與啊怎麼可能農業部就廢掉了不是嗎委員報告一下水保計畫的核定在水保法裡面有明定的很清楚原則上都是直轄市縣市政府的核准除了中央興建的工程才是我們農業部來核准所以水保計畫的核定就是有民間開發都是由地方政府來做核准"},{"start":5431.064,"end":5455.703,"text":"要跟您做個說明所以這個案子的開發案它一定要擬水保計畫它不是19條的特定水保禁止開發它是個開發案是內政部核准的開發案那在開發的當時一定會開挖整地嘛那只要在山坡地做開挖整地依水保法12條的規定就要擬水保計畫報經地方政府做核定"},{"start":5456.664,"end":5469.714,"text":"核定完以後依照水保計畫來做實施並監督跟委員報告所以你們現在所以到底農業部的角色是什麼除了你剛剛講的督導要去國中之外呢"},{"start":5471.417,"end":5500.556,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們中央在水保法裡面的角色除了剛剛講說中央的工程是我們核水保計畫我們還是法規的主管機關法規那我們水保計或者水保我們也住監督剛剛我們的主秘也說得很清楚是說監督所以地方如果有一些執行不是很妥適的我們會來了解那在這個案子就我們所知地方政府有做裁罰他有用水保法去做裁罰也勒令停工了"},{"start":5500.936,"end":5525.874,"text":"所以吹爆法該做的裁罰地方政府都做了所以站在我們督導主管機關的立場他不是我們可以去做了解他不是不裁罰他如果不裁罰我中央當然要介入那現在目前來講他已經有裁罰勒令停工你們先盡你們督導的這個責任對不對包含你剛剛講法規有沒有被誤解這個地方第二個你剛剛講裁罰就是民眾跟媒體現在為什麼跳起來"},{"start":5527.83,"end":5535.979,"text":"人命關天的事情現在只有罰錢嘛然後就一直做嘛我都懂他一年可以賺到錢一年收四億多你去罰那個小錢那當然就繼續做啊他有熱定停工嘛有熱定停工好一部分啦台水剛來的消息沒有"},{"start":5547.352,"end":5562.065,"text":"他那個地是台水的沒關係你去查清楚現在不要各說各話因為我的這邊的消息來源是台水來的我要質詢你之前我特別去問好不好那沒有的話就要熱令到田工趕快把安全做好尤其是訪台廳這段時間"},{"start":5563.286,"end":5588.911,"text":"我剛才說的齁 這個詳情我們會跟高雄市政府去了解然後高雄政府如果依法已經做了一些決定或停工的話他也是依水保計畫相關的處罰嘛那就結了嘛 就跟農業部是沒有特別的關係嘛對對 東田你已經看裡面停工嘛 現在台水那邊人家消息就沒有那有 沒有的話就趕快去處理這件事情好不好那另外做一件比較整體的 保定 做一個比較整體的山坡地 咱知道說過了 山坡地"},{"start":5589.929,"end":5606.634,"text":"整個生態的這個問題 安全問題嘛你是不是能夠一個月內比較完整針對國內山坡地跟開發重電的光電這個問題做一個檢討跟報告出來你的生態保護啊 你的山坡地的保護啊這個題目好大"},{"start":5608.418,"end":5625.871,"text":"這個題目很大你那現在出現這種地方蠻多的啦你有發現台灣現在有一個要重電啦沒有第一個你的漁電共生一些漁溫已經被犧牲了對不對那一些農地一部分現在連山坡地都開始砍樹挖山因為山坡地本身的界定齁"},{"start":5626.952,"end":5647.667,"text":"他跟他的那個羊角是有關的那山坡地本身能夠讓他開發光電或其他的開發工程的話一定是經過審查的一定都是個案審查的那你要告我你要我說把全台灣的山坡地的這些光電的這些政策跟立場這個沒辦法沒辦法沒辦法說明的因為他都是個案在處理的"},{"start":5648.151,"end":5668.793,"text":"副長,就是這個案子出問題嘛,所以你說高雄市政府開始裁罰嘛對不對,奧先生說他要勒令停工或是要停嘛,不能只有罰錢嘛那你是督導單位你要進去,這是第一個,第一個是個案嘛第二個我是要跟你講,有沒有類似的個案是有危險性的,你先去清一遍嘛我剛剛已經講了喔,這有行程問題喔,如果你的山坡地這樣開發出問題"},{"start":5670.558,"end":5679.193,"text":"那主管機關要不要把他扣起來這個有刑責問題喔不要說於心何人啦人民的財產生命安全這如果鬧出人命怎麼辦"},{"start":5680.424,"end":5705.423,"text":"是不是 於心不安的同時還有選擇啊沒有 所有的開發都有開發許可嘛啊就是開發出了問題所以才要你去查嘛那如果去查沒有問題當然就沒事啊那就是地方政府的問題啊部長你怎麼一直把責任推給地方政府地方要負一部分責任 中央你剛剛講你要督導 你要去解釋對不對現在包括有高雄的地方在哪裡等一下看民進黨立委會不會上來要求要做這件事情"},{"start":5706.324,"end":5727.462,"text":"這部分黨派人民的生命財產安全中央跟地方本來就是分工的啊農業部的職權我可以介入處理的我一定介入處理我可以溝通了解的我一定溝通了解嘛這是跨部會的問題我最後只要一個東西針對國內的山坡地特別是開發去種田去光電的到底安不安全"},{"start":5728.283,"end":5738.721,"text":"你去清一下好不好有發生像這樣的事情我可以了解說現在的山坡地裡面有多少的光電暗場那到底安不安全絕對我沒辦法去判斷"},{"start":5740.865,"end":5762.053,"text":"先去看安不安全嘛 對不對沒有 我沒有辦法判斷它安不安全因為它如果被許可的話就是一個安全的那我可以在一個月之內去調所有的山坡地有水保計畫 有光電暗場的資料這個可以處理但是要我去判斷說它安不安全這個我沒辦法做到那你就全部 一個一個先調出來好不好做一個簡單總結 保定保定"},{"start":5765.305,"end":5791.121,"text":"我們是支持要發展綠電的可是光電發展到現在我已經問過你好幾次了餘電共生你看我們多少餘溫 多少農民的生活都受到影響了這是第一類 所以我上次就說我知道你們壓力可能很大啦一方面要充分供電一方面老講那些業者 老實講你們壓力到我可是你們要多站在人民的立場農民的立場 人民的財產安全的立場"},{"start":5792.72,"end":5812.743,"text":"來我最後說一個總結你看八十幾年的時候台灣一直在推BOT那時候有一部電影很有名叫海角7號它裡面這樣講土地也要BOT山也要BOT連我們面對的大海都要BOT它是我們台灣的海這麼漂亮可是我們自己都看不到"},{"start":5813.7,"end":5832.794,"text":"那是在諷刺我們VOT 氾濫又出了一堆問題我們現在光電也出了一堆問題這樣搞下去連山坡地都產平了台灣還剩下什麼所以政府有責任啊你在光電推動的時候光電業者的利益不能夠侵犯到我們人民的財產和生命安全嘛"},{"start":5834.074,"end":5843.681,"text":"這一定的啊我今天一整個質詢從前幾天問你的漁電共生到今天山坡地被剷平樹被砍掉這是我們台灣人民要的嗎"},{"start":5845.285,"end":5868.74,"text":"這是政府一開始要推動光電藥的嘛 出問題要解決問題如果他申請剛出過了但是他後續沒有依照水保計畫去執行就會開罰嘛所以這個部分我想我們會來做啦在整個申請過程當然有法律的依據啦可是老實講很多申請案子過了以後一出現一堆弊案嘛所以才需要事後好好去追嘛現在媒體為什麼報導這麼大 民眾已經在申請嘛我們不能解決問題啦"},{"start":5870.1,"end":5886.824,"text":"都站在人民的立場 特別幫人民解決財產跟生命安全 說實在的我今天提出的指示很重要喔 紅台聽來喔如果因為我今天 我已經提醒大家了出了問題 不是只有良心不安 這有刑事責任 人會抓去關 謝謝好 謝謝 現在請鄭天才委員做詢答"},{"start":5907.825,"end":5933.392,"text":"主席 各位委員有請部長陳部長部長好農業保險已經實施差不多10年了現在已經113年度你們的資料是說投保27萬件"},{"start":5935.995,"end":5950.026,"text":"總共23.4萬公頃這樣的一個數字按照你的報告裡面還提到到這個就以今年來講投保19.1萬件15.8萬公頃覆蓋率目前是53.72"},{"start":5963.955,"end":5987.409,"text":"53.72這樣的覆蓋率經過是10年來算嗎還是從109開始算應該從110年吧現在是當下當下的平均投保率現在嗎對 去年的啦 以去年的這樣還是有非常需要加強的空間對不對"},{"start":5990.549,"end":5997.827,"text":"因為這樣的覆蓋率我個人認為就是整個投保的覆蓋率"},{"start":5998.991,"end":6027.446,"text":"不是一直一味的一直拉高我們希望說每一張保單有它的保單的設計是符合農民需要而且它的每一張保單的投保人數是多的那整個投保覆蓋率本身又牽扯到有的保單剛剛開始有的保單還沒設計它品項太多了嘛所以我想我們未來會要求投保的保單的品質而不是衝保單的數量品質好"},{"start":6029.4,"end":6037.828,"text":"那我們就看這個理賠率好了這個到今年4月理賠12.5萬件總理賠金額60.6億你說理賠率怎麼樣?理賠率130%"},{"start":6051.4,"end":6072.71,"text":"理賠率那理賠的金額每件大概平均多少就要看不同的那個就像您剛才講的27萬件23.4萬公頃嘛那相對的一除的話大概就是幾萬塊吧大概就這樣子所以他這個以理賠12.5萬件總理賠金額60.6億的話"},{"start":6079.963,"end":6092.406,"text":"就是平均那另外剛剛說我如果理賠率是130%的話就是我保費收了100塊可是我賠了130塊就這種概念所以換句話說農民會增加了這個30塊的的一個貨到這個理賠以現在的數字數字60.6億來算的話差不多48000多了"},{"start":6110.911,"end":6115.094,"text":"平均4萬8千多也不是很高啦保險不是用來賺錢的所以這個部分是怎麼樣去精進的"},{"start":6132.321,"end":6140.606,"text":"因為經過如果你這邊寫說自104年推動以來表示還沒有這個法例的時候就開始推動了嘛"},{"start":6142.241,"end":6163.002,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實如果要談到農業保險,那最佳的理賠率應該是70%到80%因為再一加一些行政成本嘛,那這樣的話就能夠攤平整個的系統那現在理賠率超過百分之百,超過百分之百表示說很多保單因為保的人數太少"},{"start":6164.043,"end":6177.852,"text":"保單流出太少的時候 它保費沒有辦法被分擔風險沒辦法被分擔所以我們的目標就是要讓更多人設計出一個好的保單讓更多人來投保讓這個保險的那個理賠率能夠降到70%到80%左右"},{"start":6181.912,"end":6195.581,"text":"就是因為有這樣的一個實際的狀況實際實行的情形所以我們召委才會提出這個修農業保險法第10條"},{"start":6197.122,"end":6226.223,"text":"怎麼樣能夠當然這個部分等一下如果有主條的話討論的話是可以再討論這個怎麼樣讓這個條文更好當然他這個利益良善就是希望這個補助比例授權給主管機關因應農業發展的需要能夠定期檢討這個部分是一個"},{"start":6227.574,"end":6239.462,"text":"怎麼樣因為有時候條文有時候硬梆梆的如果我們基本上農業部我們都會相信農業部是會照顧農民是以農民的"},{"start":6240.926,"end":6267.944,"text":"這個利益的一個尤其是相關的應該他之所以會要理賠就是因為符合理賠的條件所以這個部分是這個部分當然你們有你們的一個考量這個在你們的資料裡面這個補助刪除補助比例是不是不利還是有利在你們的報告裡面都有都有提到"},{"start":6269.065,"end":6283.785,"text":"所以這個部分你們的理解按照你們對於這個條文的修正的理解就是說增加第二項前項補助比例主管基本考量農業發展之需要定期檢討調整"},{"start":6286.185,"end":6306.572,"text":"這樣的文字跟你原來的線型條文的施行後第六年起以60%為上限是不利是嗎?還是有利?我跟委員報告,我非常感謝委員包括謝議員委員還有其他兩位委員的版本那其中有一個重要的就是"},{"start":6307.797,"end":6328.525,"text":"這些補助的比例應該要考量農業發展的需要定期的檢討調整這個我覺得我們也在做我們絕對認同那至於說把第六年以後的60%刪掉那那個刪掉了以後反而會造成法的不確定性的空間它可以是0也可以是100"},{"start":6329.847,"end":6353.511,"text":"就是沒有一個完整的敘述因為前面只是敘述75%而已嘛那如果說敘述75%然後講的是前項補助的話那就會有點邏輯不通就是說因為你刪掉了後面6年那你的現在紅色的前項的部分就是去調整前面5年可是前面5年已經過了啦"},{"start":6354.714,"end":6377.563,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得農業部我們未來在調溫的足調審查的時候我想我們會提出一些我們的精進的作為那我都知道委員都是為了農民希望鼓勵農民來增加投保的前提那同樣的我們可以設計一些誘因來"},{"start":6379.824,"end":6395.843,"text":"增加農民投保的這些意願這個我想我們在未來在主條審查的時候我們會提出一些想法來跟委員做一個報告這個我們討論的時候一定要考量到"},{"start":6397.037,"end":6421.11,"text":"農民啊然後尤其是我們考量到這個目前的執行的狀況所以這個比例怎麼樣去決定雖然是授權給你們但是前面怎麼樣去譬如說幾個例子啊其補助第一項啊補助比例不得低於多少假設補助比例不得低於60%不得低於60%"},{"start":6425.885,"end":6451.63,"text":"然後第二項其補助比例你還可以往60以上還可以增加給你彈性我問你你講的就是另外一件事情你說不得低於那農業部是絕對反對的啦因為保險本身是一個對價的一個關係如果所有東西都由政府承擔有太多的道德風險我想委員也經常在產業看嘛這個部長"},{"start":6453.031,"end":6466.022,"text":"這個就是我剛剛只是一個給你討論的方向因為有第二項嘛前項補助比例給你去檢討嘛所以那個第一項的文字怎麼樣去修的會更好"},{"start":6467.292,"end":6488.726,"text":"這個部分我們當初的想法就是第一項不刪六年的話後面那項留著就很好因為兩個都會考慮對 因為那個以本法實行後五年內以75%為上限那個已經過了嘛所以已經文字不需要啦所以第一項看怎麼改會更好我們到時候再一起討論 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":6493.027,"end":6505.957,"text":"好謝謝現在請賴銳榮委員做詢答謝主席請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":6512.114,"end":6538.387,"text":"陳部長 先請教一下 先恭喜其實亞洲成為了這個口蹄疫跟非洲豬瘟跟傳統豬瘟的非裔國亞洲的唯一的一個非裔國 這個非常的重要這個未來台灣應該持續的會把我們的好的豬肉銷往世界各國吧才有更好的一些收益吧會的 我想第一個部分就是我們成為三大豬瘟非裔國的"},{"start":6539.963,"end":6566.313,"text":"我們另一個階段我們會持續的守成這個很重要這個很重要一定要守成然後這個機會我們是很少因為全亞洲兩個唯一的一個我們針對幾個目標市場國因為以前傳統豬瘟存在不容易外銷現在都可以去做會鎖定哪幾個目標市場國我想幾個主要的日本早期的日本是一個我們豬肉外銷日本還有其他的嗎那還有本身"},{"start":6567.771,"end":6586.375,"text":"東南亞的地區新加坡新加坡菲律賓的部分都有菲律賓都會去東南亞的國家都有我們希望把台灣豬肉的品牌往上提升就像很多新的國家比如說很多人講到西班牙的伊比利豬肉想要很多的時候我們就會講到那我們希望台灣的豬肉品牌也能夠持續在國際上讓這個豬肉持續在國際上是"},{"start":6589.236,"end":6616.71,"text":"台灣的豬肉是被認為是國際上品質非常好的一個豬肉我們認為這個也是提升台灣整體的一個形象是部長會朝這個方向嗎會 我們會朝這個方向好 那明年所以剛剛這幾個國家都要來推動嘛對不對對 我想菲律賓的已經現在已經同意我們可以輸出了嘛菲律賓同意了對 菲律賓同意了新加坡也同意了同意了那現在就是日本我們會開始其中跟他做一個談判日本還在談判當中對"},{"start":6617.831,"end":6645.388,"text":"那預定什麼時候會這個我想我們會努力因為我們現在日本也設了農業組嘛我們希望說用更積極的態度去溝通那麼預定說將來在外銷的那個量部分達到一個什麼樣的目標明年有沒有設定一個目標的量我們現在正在跟業者討論因為現在目前銷日本的他有不同的類別生鮮的以外還有一些加工的加工的部分他們現在銷的還不錯啦他現在通路已經建立了"},{"start":6645.948,"end":6674.787,"text":"好像跟日本的西武鐵道公司整建立了那以後生鮮如果談得上的話就可以搭接在現在的通路往前走那這個部分我想我們會繼續努力好再抓一下一個可能預估目標的量好不好對我們會來跟越野談完以後我們當然希望提升台灣豬肉的品質也讓這個豬肉有更好的一些收益是好那另外回到今天的這個我看了一下整個這個報告裡面其實"},{"start":6676.048,"end":6697.926,"text":"到現在為止從這個實施了四年我們這個法實施了四年多來那如果要照現在委員們的修法的話把這個第六年起的60%的上限文字拿掉的話那等同未來幾乎是形同五年內是75%那第六年之後有些可能就完全是沒有上限的規定了"},{"start":6698.226,"end":6719.185,"text":"那我看來 農業部覺得這個是有不確定性嗎 有所擔憂嗎是 我想第六年以後拿掉 因為它是一個上限拿掉的話 可以是0也可以是100那個不確定性就非常高 那當初訂這個法的時候是希望一開始的時候能夠給政府單位補助的一個"},{"start":6720.066,"end":6734.815,"text":"指導就是前面5年比較辛苦大家不認知農民比較不認識這個保險所以補助比例最高是75然後慢慢的推廣的時候農民知道這樣的保險的重要性那補助的比例可以下降到6%當初的立法"},{"start":6737.056,"end":6747.219,"text":"75、60這樣慢慢的來不要依靠政府的補助來然後以現在來講我們大概是二分之一然後地方政府有時候會多也會補30%或40%但是它不會影響這個上限"},{"start":6750.64,"end":6770.128,"text":"所以現在最高的大概是給50不住50以實際狀況上是如此啦那反倒是如果把這個東西拿掉之後反倒是像主委部長講的是0到100多反而產生一些不明確性所以我覺得這個可能在整個到時候可能我們再討論到時候再做討論那另外我想請教其實"},{"start":6771.888,"end":6793.517,"text":"農業的損失像現在年均大概121億其實農業保險是真的有必要性但是在推動上面的時候現在現金的救助大概是佔25%大概75%等於是農民自己要自行來負擔這樣的損失所以我們當然也希望未來更多的農業保險的推動的時候能夠讓"},{"start":6794.617,"end":6807.192,"text":"更多農民參與進來的時候能夠讓這樣的一個這個農民的遭受這些風險能夠降低不要承受那麼大的一個風險那但是好像成效上不是那麼好部長怎麼來看怎麼來推動"},{"start":6810.415,"end":6826.77,"text":"我想第一個部分就是整個天然災害本身我們是希望就是以補助它的成本的20%為上限但是現在因為天然災害的頻度越來越高以去年來講我們整個的天然災害救助金花了84億"},{"start":6828.391,"end":6843.114,"text":"是蠻高的啦所以怎麼樣讓我們的農業保險能夠去補足天然災害的不足那這個部分我覺得才是要去思考的重點所以後續我們會去看哪一些天然災害風險比較高的"},{"start":6844.244,"end":6869.318,"text":"的品項那天然災害本身絕對有限那這個時候的農業保險就要加強力道去做這個方面的處理我希望部長針對每一個的在深入去那個之後然後跟農民去做溝通啦因為農民大家感受到政府的補助進來讓我做這個保險之後我能夠達到效益的時候他當然才比較有意願嘛如果說效益上不大那當然大家就會想要"},{"start":6870.198,"end":6897.044,"text":"賭賭看嘛賭過了就不賠嘛但是賭不過的話那就慘了但是一定要把那個每一個狀況給分析出來這樣才有辦法讓那個然後政府的補助到多少能達到那個效益那這樣子才有辦法達到讓更多的農民加入這個保險的部分好不好請部長再更細緻的去把它給抓出來這樣才能夠達到比較小那再要請教一下其實如果我們把強制型的扣掉的話其實"},{"start":6897.964,"end":6903.308,"text":"整個保險率其實是偏低的20.7如果把強制的話20.7這其實是在推進了4年還20.7這樣成效部長應該不滿意吧我覺得還好"},{"start":6911.864,"end":6932.434,"text":"還好啦 但是20.7的一個平均裡面 我覺得水產特別低 水產才2.7而已那水產又把一些的平均值拉下來那我一直強調就是說 我希望我們的保單的品質要提升讓更多人來投保 那個保單才有它的風險分擔的價值"},{"start":6934.355,"end":6961.211,"text":"部長也點出來其實20我覺得還有成長的空間那水的水產品更低啦更需要努力2點多而已的話那這個呢你看我們來看一下水產品這一個啦其實從106年的20件到107年的19件降到了去年只有剩6件這個整個持續在降啦那幾乎推行的結果反倒是降了所以我當然知道現在原來補助是三分之一現在有可能會補到二分之一我們現在補到二分之一有送10件進來了嗎"},{"start":6964.833,"end":6983.932,"text":"應該10件都會給予支持吧應該會吧10件支持至少比去年的6件就增加了我還是希望部長針對這些水產品的部分再去加強我們先來努力啦因為我覺得它一定是某個環節我們的保端的設計是讓漁民無感的啦"},{"start":6984.592,"end":6999.887,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們會努力來這個保險一定是這樣啦你政府有給我補貼了補到了三分之一甚至補到二分之一我還是只有這些建設要來限燃他沒有感覺他還是要去讀讀看所以表示說在政策上應該還可以再更怎麼樣去針對這個問題現在看來是"},{"start":7002.909,"end":7019.216,"text":"石斑、鰻魚跟鵝魚嘛那我覺得應該還可以再找到更有效的方法去讓更多農民加入只有更多的農民加入保險才能夠比較確保他們整體的收益啦那特別現在的青農越來越多的時候也許可以努力看看去溝通好不好請部長再加強力道啦好 謝謝林黛華委員質詢完休息五分鐘現在請林黛華委員做詢答"},{"start":7043.25,"end":7043.754,"text":"有請部長陳部長"},{"start":7050.642,"end":7064.617,"text":"本席針對糧食自主率這個議題受到持續下降我們檢討它的原因其中有一項特別要跟部長來做討論就是地緣政治風險下的農業邊防的檢疫因與時俱進農業因盛防灰色威脅所造成的傷害"},{"start":7073.746,"end":7099.887,"text":"好在這個非洲我們的這個台灣成為亞洲唯一三大病株的非疫區這是非常不容易的一個成果那但是呢我們的這個威脅是存在的所以在這個非洲豬瘟的飄死豬還是成豬扑熊的出現在我們的海防那包括這個農業的灰色危機這個我也舉了一個美國的"},{"start":7100.407,"end":7124.456,"text":"案例好那在這個甚至呢在推波助瀾在農業自動化之下這樣的農業灰色威脅也開始了自動化這對於我們現在比較艱困的糧食自主率的下降當中我們應該怎麼樣的一些因應好在世界動物衛生組織當中我們在法國在法國舉行台灣在會中取得了傳統"},{"start":7126.016,"end":7151.79,"text":"租溫非異國的認證成為亞洲唯一擁有非洲租溫以及傳統租溫及口蹄三大諸之並證的非異區的地位農業部房檢署的同仁是功不可沒但這個威脅卻並未消失我們要如何謹慎因應這當中我們的總統也提到了幾個方向持續強化"},{"start":7153.672,"end":7166.746,"text":"邊境房檢以及提升競爭力好我們就來檢討我們現在的房檢現況跟未來好在非洲豬瘟的部分自中國發生非洲豬瘟的時候一直到去年6月26號金門都還出現非洲豬瘟的病死豬"},{"start":7171.351,"end":7190.885,"text":"而這在回溯到4年前110年4月的時候也出現了非洲豬瘟的病史豬漂流到新北他不是我們傳統認為中國來的會是在金門馬祖竟然在4年前是漂到新北好那這個呢我們來看"},{"start":7193.126,"end":7216.708,"text":"美国他是怎么积极的因应这样的一个边境防疫不分龙鱼跟鳞的部分好他们在前几天6月3号的时候美国的司法部起诉了两名的科学家他们呢起诉他呢他们这个走私带入美国的真菌为核古联包菌"},{"start":7217.749,"end":7236.489,"text":"這個河谷聯包郡就是右邊這樣的一個報導當中這四個塑膠袋每一個塑膠袋就是一個郡租這郡租當中裡面內含了多少的郡司跟郡總在裡面郡司在裡面可能是千萬"},{"start":7237.63,"end":7258.531,"text":"這樣一包裡面這一小顆你們可能有千千萬萬顆在裡面就好像我皮革力可能大家比較好理解就是我們的這個常常為一般國人所苦的像香港腳他腳但是這個真菌這樣的菌類附著在腳上了所以就有香港香港腳這個東西概念是一樣的好所以這樣的菌"},{"start":7259.432,"end":7288.031,"text":"附上到我的農業的這個品種上的時候種下去當中該真菌會被認定為可能為農業恐怖攻擊的潛力武器而這個東西呢他們追溯是在三年前就展開他今年起訴這樣的中國科學家但是發現到他們在三年前就展開這樣的規模的規劃跟進行為什麼他要做這件事情呢因為這個核包聯包菌核穀聯包菌多麼厲害會造成小麥大麥玉米"},{"start":7289.432,"end":7314.173,"text":"稻米的刺霉病这个小麦大麦玉米在美国他们是饲料在是作为饲料用台湾的稻米我们是人在吃的所以这样的菌丝在美国如果未来在台湾发生的时候会导致牲口人类的呕吐吃下去之后种出来然后有了这些霉菌之后然后就会"},{"start":7315.294,"end":7336.034,"text":"有这种牲口人类呕吐肝损伤甚至缺陷及刺癌所以为什么美国的针对这样的边境防疫这么的谨慎因应好那这个农业自动化下这样的农业的灰色威胁可能也就自动化怎么说呢我就以这个为例河谷联包菌"},{"start":7336.654,"end":7360.888,"text":"的擴散樣態它可以透過自然界擴散它可以透過人為的自動化載具的擴散如果在自然界這樣的河谷蓮苞菌它附著在玉米跟水稻的一個種子上生長而導致這樣的植物發病之後在它的子蘭苞只成熟噴出之後藉著自然的氣流風雨的傳播整片的田野"},{"start":7361.909,"end":7377.905,"text":"就這樣一顆我一粒米我一粒玉米或一粒水稻它裡面有這樣的菌絲菌種這樣存在之後這樣它的噴出來成熟噴出來之後藉著自然的風雨傳播跟"},{"start":7379.086,"end":7397.508,"text":"氣流整片田野就染病了那也透過人為的這樣的自動載具這樣的河谷連包具呢就是只要融入這個液態的肥料透過各種自動化的設備如果像無人機右上角所示的圖片它噴灑在農田它不需要附著在物種"},{"start":7398.089,"end":7402.632,"text":"他只要噴灑在這個肥料裡面 液態肥料裡面這樣一灑 哇 這樣全田也都腫這個都懶病了所以這樣的農業的灰色威脅令作物大幅減產和失去使用價值嚴重威脅到我們的糧食自主和食品安全好 我們來看本席在意的這樣的糧食自主率"},{"start":7422.885,"end":7450.018,"text":"這樣的糧食自主率當中這個呢國內因應旱災的政策優先順序一定先停工農業灌溉用水那所以呢農業部去年公布的112年的糧食供需年報當中很呈現了剛好112年是百年旱災台灣的糧食自主率持續下降所以一直到2023年我們還跌到18年新低喔這個前年在水稻方面112年加難"},{"start":7452.439,"end":7457.222,"text":"平原的停灌導致水稻的減產減產了10.7萬公噸使我們的穀類糧食自足率從111年的26.6%下降到25.5%好我就以美國個案"},{"start":7468.889,"end":7479.215,"text":"如果我國若招式類似的農業灰色攻擊將會使原有的穀類特別是稻米的糧食自主力出現更大的衝擊將嚴重影響到國內糧食穩定好我在這邊建請農業部你們做要做精進了現有的防檢跟防疫要做精進我絕對肯定這個防檢署的這個同仁的努力或者我們不會是亞洲在這個"},{"start":7499.107,"end":7519.132,"text":"這個非疫區的這樣的豬瘟能夠拔疫而且是亞洲第一的非疫區但是是不是要面臨針對糧食危機所因應的這個我們邊境的這個防檢跟防疫我們是不是應該要更精進呢那所以呢對於防檢的部分你們就了解一下國際先進國家對於農業邊防的管制跟檢驗的方案類似"},{"start":7525.414,"end":7537.681,"text":"尤其類似這樣的真菌株的查驗困難因為本席非常的好奇我都想瞭解你看這第五頁右上角這個菌是他們美國怎麼查獲你說株質這麼大體我還可以去看這樣的這樣的一個河谷聯胞菌在右邊這樣子他怎麼查我我個人都很好奇"},{"start":7548.547,"end":7549.79,"text":"我們本部當中的這個防檢的同仁你們怎麼來防檢呢這個我都很好奇所以這個第一個"},{"start":7558.649,"end":7561.251,"text":"你們就要經濟你們的參考一下新進國家怎麼做這是第二個呢這個經濟農業防疫的機制預防威脅還是剩餘事後的處理農業部應該積極主動掌握國內主要的經濟物種不管是榮 漁 畜產等他可能遭遇的毀滅性影響的病原資訊"},{"start":7581.443,"end":7600.97,"text":"為什麼我講這句話呢因為這個您也是學者出身啊所以呢我絕對相信我們的農業專家國內的農業學者或專家他絕對知道我的主要經濟作物他可能會有哪些毀滅性影響的病原資訊那我們農業部通常都怎麼做就是"},{"start":7601.69,"end":7607.211,"text":"他做他的學術我做我的行政作為然後我遇到困難的時候再邀請他們來那我們一起來想辦法但是為什麼不事先你對於國內主要的經濟物種不管是龍魚畜牧你事先掌握了這樣子的邊防你看美國他是怎麼的因應他們也追能夠這麼小的東西是農產品的對於他們這個美國農業當中的影響他能夠在邊防就阻絕了這樣的一個證據"},{"start":7631.676,"end":7635.738,"text":"好那在國內我也請你們一定要針對可能遭受的農業灰色恐攻所形成的傷害作物的染疫減產跟這個疾病的傳播預先建立起這樣的對應機制好針對這樣的精進作為的"},{"start":7649.966,"end":7662.482,"text":"這樣的一個建議來提高不要說提高啦能夠穩定我們國內的糧食自主的一個這樣的一個這樣的一個目標您怎麼看本席的這樣的"},{"start":7664.111,"end":7689.13,"text":"這個提案呢我想非常謝謝委員的一些建議我分兩點第一個部分就是那個河谷連刀菌正式的全名是連刀菌不是連包菌連刀菌本身在台灣已經有這樣的一個病原菌發生的這些危害然後它現在目前並不是法定的該防檢疫的部分但是委員提到一個非常重要的是"},{"start":7689.87,"end":7713.193,"text":"一般我們在蜘蛛如果染這個病的話我們看到會把它銷毀但是它可能是一個單株而已可是當它是拿整個試管或整個的一個濃縮的這些病原進來的時候就真的很有可能被不法之徒用去當做一些可能的灰色攻擊您說的灰色攻擊這個我們必須要防"},{"start":7714.134,"end":7735.385,"text":"所以在田間的部分我們現在針對河谷鐮刀菌有一套很好的防治的技術然後也有一些抗病的品種在出現那這個部分我們會持續不只是這個菌其他的部分我們現在已經我只是舉這個案例不管是榮、榆、樹你現在講的是你的防疫那如果防潛的部分呢"},{"start":7736.406,"end":7749.634,"text":"對 防疫的部分也是一樣我們一定要把所有的病人阻擋在所謂的境外好 那你們就精進檢討一下對 我們這個會來處理好 謝謝 以上謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7799.531,"end":7800.23,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"},{"start":7950.172,"end":7950.725,"text":"by bwd6"},{"start":7996.22,"end":7997.841,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":8053.584,"end":8053.804,"text":"謝謝主席有請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":8077.092,"end":8101.781,"text":"部長好我想經濟委員會召委很用心排這個題目我認為非常好確實是要去思考現在農業保險這幾年上路之後的一個檢討的問題可是在這個同時其實相關的一個法案的修改最近都紛紛出爐包括我之前提的農民退休金促進條例第7條的修正案還有包括農民保險的這個排付條款的部分請部長這邊跟行政院溝通的部分能夠加速進行這第一點提醒"},{"start":8103.902,"end":8118.519,"text":"那第二個的部分呢今天在野黨所提的這個拉掉中央補助的上限的部分我覺得第一個有可能會排擠到剛剛我所提的那兩項的一個福利預算的問題因為預算是都綁在一起這是第一個那第二個的部分補助的部分"},{"start":8118.899,"end":8139.253,"text":"你也說明很清楚可能到75%如果到75%的情況底下依照目前的覆蓋率個人的算起來看起來農業保險覆蓋率大概53.72%但是實質上你如果扣除掉強制納保的豬隻水稻等等覆蓋率其實不過是20%20.7%對 才20%而已所以你已經補助到75%還20%也就是補助不是關鍵是在保單的設計才是問題那保單的設計的問題這就是我們今天要好好來探討的問題"},{"start":8149.279,"end":8171.391,"text":"那保單的設計第一個我看到那個整個結果農營領不到產險公司賺飽飽第二個是多項農產品其實是被遺漏的沒有納召一個農業保障的範圍第三個現有保單又難以滿足產需的一個需求如果就這樣子來我們區分的話以目前的政策型的保險或商業型的保險來看的話"},{"start":8172.572,"end":8196.359,"text":"我看起來政策型的保險之所以能夠處理一來是分為收入型一來分為死亡型不論是收入型的這個部分這理賠的部分的參數能夠容易量化另外死亡型的部分還有包括這個豬隻跟乳牛的部分基本上也是容易量化這個基本上是比較OK的目前這個還OK可是呢我必須提醒部長部長"},{"start":8198.3,"end":8214.218,"text":"主要是出現在商業型的保險這36種當中是非強制的保險真正需要檢討是這個部分覆蓋力過低的元兇也是在這邊主要的在哪裡一來理賠的門檻不太一次一來過高"},{"start":8215.379,"end":8229.27,"text":"二來呢 理賠的金額呢 過低來 我那個 看一下部長 部長 數字看一下啦除了聽幕僚講一下 看一下我PowerPoint整理出來的數字你看喔 理賠率這三年當中以2021、22、23 理賠率不過是1.94% 6%"},{"start":8235.855,"end":8263.057,"text":"你總totally的這個保險基金從第一年的267億到第三年的300多億來看理賠率都沒有超過這個10%那以國泰這個產險的這個巴拉的保險來看的話設定的最大的陣風要十幾以上要連續五天那以照目前我算一算以照這個條件來看造成全國現有的巴勒的投保率不到1%"},{"start":8266.802,"end":8284.296,"text":"我查到一百六百就農民反應過得起來是這樣子這是第一個啦你要繳的一兩萬的這個保費來說然後等到那個大颱風大豪雨的時候那時期得當在中台啦大家就認為不划算還有一個我選區裡頭的大內的部分"},{"start":8286.141,"end":8303.341,"text":"你搭建一個往事的部分 起碼要花兩百萬即便你又補助 夯不啷噹你至少要出個一百你一分地 賠起來不到一千元賠起來不到一千元 你知道部長 木瓜的投保件數有幾件嗎 你知道嗎"},{"start":8304.623,"end":8326.638,"text":"六件 六件所以說 你看 芭樂不到一耙 那木瓜才六件這就是 你已經弄了四年多了喔 原因在哪裡第一個就是 豪雨成為常態 理賠的門檻過高嘛那第二個呢 就是理賠的金額太少 保險報酬率太低嘛"},{"start":8327.881,"end":8350.95,"text":"那我這樣再算一算部長這個保單的真正需要設計的問題是在這邊過往我們只要去我們去要求拜託看起來好像拜託公股的一些產險公司或私人的一個產險公司何嘗你們來拜託人你們說他們都配合政策那你怎麼不要求他來兌換這個社會責任呢你去看300多億當中"},{"start":8353.251,"end":8365.421,"text":"五十幾%的覆蓋率超過三成以上是那個政策型的保險有其他的部分是屬於給私人的保險他們不當是300多億當中呢一年當中就有超過100億當中丟入這個產險公司裡頭而非農業系統這種情況底下你賠率這麼低"},{"start":8372.819,"end":8395.669,"text":"不能是他們暴利啊我先跟他們報一下您這邊的算法可能有一點出入第一個就是說我們的理賠率應該是保費的收入當分母而不是保險的金額當分母是保費的收入當分母除以分子是理賠金額那大概多少那樣子我們算出來商業型的保險本身在113年它的理賠率是47"},{"start":8397.069,"end":8422.615,"text":"那如果47啊那一個合理的理賠率應該是在70到80因為它還有成本嘛所以它還是偏低沒有錯所以我們有現在有在設計就是說當它前一年度的理賠率比較低的時候我們就會降低保費來做處理因應啊大概是這樣子的方式如果是這樣子的話那為什麼那個投保的那個件數會那麼低呢"},{"start":8423.375,"end":8452.235,"text":"沒有 如果沒有那麼離譜的話你把你相關的理賠率啦 匯後給本息一份我覺得重點的部分是要告知那個部長這個保單的設計其實是關鍵啦不是在保費的補貼 不是關鍵啦所以你保負那個整個保單的設計的部分的這個商業型的保險是目前外界最詬病的地方除了農產品之外 部長我趁這個機會再提醒你一下"},{"start":8453.535,"end":8479.483,"text":"就是說呢 以漁產的部分的保單的這個投保起伏也是過大譬如講 這個以虱目魚來說他之前如果鯉賠有出險的話 有鯉賠的話那下一年度的投保率就會增加可是呢 你像牡蠣啦 文蛤啦像我的選區當中的七股這邊都有基本上到目前為止也都還不行"},{"start":8481.325,"end":8506.758,"text":"還沒有納入捏還在等待保單捏我要跟市長報告您講得非常重要就是保單的內容跟它的品質才是重點對啊然後像牡蠣來講因為它本身這幾年來它發生天然災害的風險變高了以後它的保費設計就是說我可以開辦這個保單但是它那個保費會高得離譜因為它的資料的計算的時間點很短過去我們並沒有這個資料"},{"start":8511.36,"end":8532.754,"text":"那這幾年大家藏一個比較長的時間來做平均值才對啊但之前我們並沒有一些比較明確的數據所以換句話說在現有的數據裡面他去算那個風險的時候他的風險非常高所以他的保費變成非常高那漁民一定沒辦法接受的所以我們現在就是說看看有沒有辦法設計出一些"},{"start":8533.82,"end":8546.499,"text":"比較改良式的一些一些保單的內容包括就是說你在特定的情況之下去做處理那如果說超過一定的風險的時候政府的吸收會高一點"},{"start":8549.523,"end":8569.821,"text":"我們以後不能補的那些也很奇怪你回去最快也要一個好這個我們一直在檢討 對另外還有包括那個柚子的部分我再直接講重點好了那個你柚子的部分的話一般傳統人壽的保單如果項目越多保費會越低可是那面積越大保費會越高以照目前為止他的計算的方式要立即落狗"},{"start":8570.501,"end":8584.849,"text":"但是颱風來所造成的這些東西延遲性的一個損傷大概都沒有納入啦那現階段的類似這種東西你只適用一個粒子如果延遲性的損傷沒有保障的話那就困難啦對啊 但是我給你們報告齁"},{"start":8586.09,"end":8604.027,"text":"我一直希望說第一個就是如果同一個農民他每年都有投保的時候我希望他保費能夠下降就是有折扣這樣能夠鼓勵第二個就是你投保的面積越大應該你的保費應該也要有折扣這樣的話才會有誘因部長時間到我也不要耽誤後面會員的時間"},{"start":8605.709,"end":8634.422,"text":"只是要求一件事情 四年多了啦 該檢討的啦我特別要求是商業型的這個部分啦或者是你政策型的要多一些品項也OK啦做一個整體的檢討麻煩你一個月的時候給本席一份好 可以對啊 你要如果改進現在這種經營的方式剛剛本席所提出的這些問題去年一整年我們就在檢討每一張嘛對對對 所以我待會要求你啊最近你既然有檢討 那你一個月拿出來應該是沒有什麼問題啊我們會提供 一定會提供好 一個月內喔 你把所有資料給我可以 好 謝謝"},{"start":8635.342,"end":8639.387,"text":"好谢谢现在请陈听飞委员做询答请部长谢谢赵伟陈部长"},{"start":8657.352,"end":8676.41,"text":"我也好部長我想請教一下我們如何去強化青農要從農的誘因我想有很多的青農說真的因為沒有固定的雇主來替他繳勞工的退休金所以基本上我們實際從事農業的"},{"start":8678.612,"end":8698.818,"text":"这些青农说真的他在后续的保障如果跟老保这些有冲突的时候他是没有有一定的一些后续的选择所以这个部分也是他们要转到我们农业服务一个很大的关键"},{"start":8699.378,"end":8719.895,"text":"他會去思考到他後續雖然如果他全力都是在做這樣的一個農業從事那沒有問題可是大家都知道現在要一個年輕人要全力來從事這樣的一個農業其實並不是那麼容易能夠去維持他自己的生活維持他一個家庭是有困難的"},{"start":8720.535,"end":8736.102,"text":"那在這個部分我們是不是有什麼樣的方向可以來協助他在他後續的保障尤其在我們農萃除菌的部分有需要去檢討讓他可以在達到一定規模的時候他也可以有所選擇"},{"start":8737.427,"end":8760.656,"text":"我跟委員報告從我們實際的調查當中特別是您所提到的青年跟青壯年的部分大概有一半將近一半的人他是原來是從事勞工的就是投保勞保他可能在公司但是他過了一段時間以後他從事農業又不願意放棄他的勞保的年資所以他是投保勞保"},{"start":8761.616,"end":8790.568,"text":"但是現階段他沒有辦法領我們的沒有辦法參加我們的農業退休儲金所以這個部分所以我們也特別去考量到就是說他未來是我們的農業經營的主力之一所以我們應該可以設計出一個方案讓他維持他的勞保的年金的一個領取的資格但是同時又可以來參加我們的農業的退休儲金的一個保險那這個部分我們現在正在設計"},{"start":8791.488,"end":8813.487,"text":"因為這個會讓他們有回到自己的家鄉從農的意願是否則他會兩難是也就是說當他現在目前投保是老保可是呢他又面臨如果他轉回到我們農業的部分那麼他在儲金是有一個"},{"start":8814.568,"end":8835.185,"text":"要求跟限制的所以我認為說在這個部分因為在這段時間其實很多的青農也一直有在反映這個區塊那我覺得這是必要性如果我們真的認為青農未來是我們農業的主力我們現在所有的政策方向也是朝這個方向希望青農回歸自己的家鄉"},{"start":8835.865,"end":8851.59,"text":"去從農如果是這樣子的話我們更應該讓他後續有保障所以這個部分再拜託我們的部長能夠在這個區塊多用點心然後我們預計多久我們現在已經在持續在討論當中嗎"},{"start":8853.01,"end":8873.04,"text":"對我們現在持續本來是有所謂的法律的禁核問題勞保跟農保的部分那這個部分我想我們的法治單位都已經解釋已經可以排除了所以我們現在基本上要推這樣的方式是沒問題的那我們會併同其他的委員的意見我們希望說在下個會期能夠併提上來做一些修正"},{"start":8878.163,"end":8889.71,"text":"因為我們認為說既然要檢討啦不要是好像頭痛一頭腳痛一腳而是我們既然要討論儲金的問題我們就一併討論因為一併討論的話雖然這是不一樣的"},{"start":8894.853,"end":8897.214,"text":"我們的這個農退儲金我們如何去增加覆蓋率跟我們的增加輕農重農的誘因這是兩個區塊可是我們既然要討論我們就一併討論"},{"start":8910.601,"end":8933.503,"text":"要不然每一次就是一下子修這個然後下一次又拿出來修那一個我覺得這個對我們修法的整個時程也會有所延宕所以這個部分在麻煩我們的部長我們來努力那另外一個部分是我們其實常常接到我們農民或是農會跟我們說我們常常"},{"start":8934.966,"end":8960.663,"text":"就是突然之間人家已經保了十幾年了然後突然跟他講說哇 你要被退保因為你是工商負責人那因為你戶籍異動因為你地籍異動因為你這個地價稅的問題然後你的勞農重複然後因為你人不在國內還有就是說你耕地沒有到達一分地然後他可能一二十年他農保這樣的一個資格就被"},{"start":8961.403,"end":8989.061,"text":"去除掉了 其實對於他是很傷耶他保養過的時間耶 我們到底有什麼樣的一個機制而不是 好像我們想到了要清查 就清查一次然後有些是耕地未打一分地的 都是在最後他已經要申辦了 結果我們農會把他調出來資料 他賣了賣到一切切切切切到"},{"start":8990.339,"end":8993.05,"text":"耕地餵打一分地沒辦法了"},{"start":8994.127,"end":9018.372,"text":"已經半個月了 沒辦法了要怎麼辦所以到底我們現在有什麼方式現在已經變成農會非常頭痛的問題也是農民現在大家都不知道我到底什麼時候我可以去確認我的身份而且這一二十年來他的保養 他的錢都一直在叫一直在叫 叫到半天跟他說 不好意思你的資格不好吧 這怎麼辦"},{"start":9021.953,"end":9047.704,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們也注意到這個問題那第一個要先跟委員說明歷來的這些查都是審計部要求農業部來查的那我們現在是六四四的部分我們自己能夠定一個時間標準嗎我們有我們的標準那我現在就是說我不希望說六四四清查就是一審查就定生死我希望能夠更提前的去用輔導的方式讓這些"},{"start":9048.544,"end":9063.056,"text":"有一些不符合規定的能夠在真正清查的時候能夠補正他的資格是啊這個部分我們已經在設計而且是有跟農會在溝通也許在六四事之前的半年就開始去啟動這樣子的一個溝通"},{"start":9065.158,"end":9085.547,"text":"主動的去了解以後如果他不符合的話那他趕快想辦法補相關的資料做調整對 他可以做調整的讓他有機會調整而不是到最後就是一句話說抱歉你一定要提報那65歲以上我們是不會去特別去查的啦"},{"start":9086.294,"end":9111.249,"text":"沒錯啊 可是不特別去查重點是他要去申辦的時候對這些資料還是會顯露出來啊對 所以我才會說就是我們有很多東西是可以主動的去了解的時候他有什麼問題的時候在真正的去清查的時候能夠補件的 能夠調整的就盡快調整部長 那你這個機制SOP什麼時候要把它訂出來這應該就有了嘛沒有啊 現在還是問題還是產生啊"},{"start":9115.745,"end":9127.413,"text":"委員我們現在正在跟各個農會來做一些溝通那基本上打保局的部分技術上已經沒有問題了所以應該很快可以推出來好那什麼時候很快一個月可以把這個SOB我覺得我們就把它公開好就是說未來我們到底在哪一個時間點我們可能會去做這樣的一個告知或是這個資料做一個核對"},{"start":9143.223,"end":9165.195,"text":"然後呢我們可以多久來做一個補正那補正的時候又有多少的一個時間點可以去做那個澄清或是更正我覺得這個部分我們應該把它訂出來讓農民都知道這現在SOP我們都已經擬好了現在就是跟農會溝通的部分我們應該三個月內之類的三個月我覺得我們就把資訊公開化因為現在已經不比以前了"},{"start":9172.578,"end":9200.424,"text":"現在從LINE 從資訊 大家都可以得知我可以有什麼樣的一個更正辦法那我自己如果身為有這樣的一個可能被退保的機制 我可以怎麼補救我就把它訂出來 訂出來之後就不會有這些枝枝節節說我已經叫一二十年了 我的權益全部被受損然後權益就不見了這部分再麻煩三個月了那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":9202.205,"end":9207.93,"text":"我給我們部長看一個我們現在的投保率是53.7%其實部長你可以看從蔬菜類雜糧類蔬菜類甚至果樹類甚至養蜂產業"},{"start":9218.2,"end":9226.602,"text":"他這個都偏低喔你看我們的養豐產是0.7而已喔農業設施才18.2%然後甚至在我們漁業的部分我們從漁業或水產才3.2%跟1.5%甚至到我們的畜牧業在家禽類才21.4%所以因為這幾樣為什麼他們的一個投保率這麼低 有沒有去檢討過"},{"start":9246.616,"end":9265.867,"text":"我想第一個養蜂產業我們現在在溝通因為養蜂產業本身就是一個類似游牧民族除非是全國性的像龍眼樹有沒有那時候不開花那造成比較大面積的時候它不能遷移造成影響但是我們一直灌輸一個觀念就是保險是一個"},{"start":9267.652,"end":9288.906,"text":"協助他能夠降低他的損失因為以前養蜂我們沒有辦法蜂農沒有辦法得到災損那現在有了那基本上他有登載的地方因為要依照登載的地方所以我覺得這個部分已經可以慢慢的可以去鼓勵他們但是我要講的是今天有"},{"start":9290.006,"end":9307.857,"text":"這麼多那麼沒有辦法去增加他的投保率其實問題在哪裡問題是在於說我們的品項其實也不廣泛我們目前才28個品項44張的保單可是你看喔我們商業保險承辦21項農會體系的政策是7項可是你看比例當中農會的體系承辦的他的"},{"start":9318.303,"end":9346.169,"text":"所謂投保率都會比較高喔是不是那為什麼跟農民有信心感有信心指數而且是政策型的對是政策型的所以呢我們是不是應該有一些更多的政策性來讓農會來做賬主辦然後增加我們投保率的一個部分然後還有一個就是說因為你的設計你的保單設計根本不符合農民的需求"},{"start":9347.209,"end":9364.19,"text":"這個才是最大的問題所以我們現在每一個畜產或是漁產或是農作物說真的每一個樣態它的狀況都不一樣甚至是我們目前整個氣候的變化還有我們在理培的部分"},{"start":9365.521,"end":9382.253,"text":"商業保險公司都很嚴格捏就很嚴格捏我相信平常要求保單的時候要收保費的時候是一個臉捏可是要理賠又是另外一個臉捏這個部分你有沒有去了解所以大家信心"},{"start":9382.833,"end":9396,"text":"就不高啊我頭髮那麼多結果我要用的時候用不到這才是關鍵啊所以我覺得部長這個真的整個都要檢討既然我們要檢討農業保險因為我們農業保險從110年到現在這也是我們民進黨的好政策"},{"start":9402.123,"end":9425.798,"text":"都要保養讓他雙軌並行有災損我們政府的災損補助也有農業保險可是因為現在天氣的變化所以我們其實應該是要把每一年的這個氣候樣本還有災損紀錄其實都要做一個統整紀錄一個延續性帶狀性的你沒有做這個帶狀性的我告訴你我們兩天要去鄉鴨 鴨保養局都說不走啦"},{"start":9429.961,"end":9448.124,"text":"全部的公務員 像水管 水道 這一次其實我們就有改變了他抽樣取樣的部分所以有部分 可是他的理賠率也不高啦 也不高啦可是如果我們沒有去改變這個理賠率更低啊"},{"start":9449.025,"end":9462.959,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個部分是很重要我們一定要有一個參數來做調整讓商業保險能夠有依據不然你如果都故意的我告訴你所有的農民你不會都站不上去"},{"start":9464.099,"end":9492.82,"text":"所以部長我們是不是應該全面對於農業保險在做所有的一個調整最重要的是如何讓農民有信心增加符合農民需求的保單設計我想我非常認同委員的想法也是我一直希望說未來的農業保險應該朝向保單的品質的提升這個保單的品質提升就像委員所說的你要符合農民的需求這最重要的"},{"start":9493.14,"end":9522.223,"text":"是 然後那些風險本身的一個設計我也跟委員報告商業保險的保證的設計都會經過我們農經局這邊一起最後才做定案不會說純粹他講什麼就講什麼沒錯啊 可是他會有要求他自己這個保險的獲利率啊所以他還是一樣會他跟你們這樣子一支長一支長啊可是最後回歸到農民的身上其實又有差了啊"},{"start":9522.603,"end":9546.794,"text":"對我知道所以我想我基本上會遵照委員的意見就是重新全面去檢討現在已經在做了檢討每一張保單為什麼它保單的人數會那麼少它到底哪一些保險的內容或是保費的金額有差異的時候我們逐項來做檢討這個我們現在已經在行動了那部長什麼時候我那時候應該是講年底之前"},{"start":9547.634,"end":9551.32,"text":"我那時候是要求他們年底之前那你剛剛跟前衛立委說一個月那是現在的經濟的報告經濟的方向可以一個月但是因為每一張保單要去調整的話可能到年底才能調整完那年底調整完"},{"start":9563.038,"end":9589.102,"text":"好年底調整完喔把每一張保單調整完喔那一樣你也是一個月你說精進的報告也是可以給我們給我們那個經濟委員會然後呢年底喔我們設定一個年底把所有的每一樣的保單品項而且品項太少的部分也應該要做調整好 謝謝好 謝謝現在請李昆城委員做詢答"},{"start":9598.757,"end":9602.141,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個陳部長陳部長還有我們這個房間署的這個徐署長徐署長"},{"start":9611.788,"end":9631.156,"text":"這個有一個新聞在一個禮拜之前有一個台灣的藝人他去中國然後從中國帶回來一個特產叫做活珠子他們是當南京的一個特產就是一個胚胎蛋然後帶回台灣然後農業部知道這件事情環節署知道這件事情"},{"start":9633.335,"end":9656.729,"text":"有沒有去查這有沒有違反我們這個動物傳染病防治條例的規定剛委員說明原則上就是在我們的隱私節目裡面這是屬於活動物的話它是一個產品是需要來申請的它有申請嗎它沒有申請可以帶進來嗎當然不能帶進來不能帶進來那因為這個事情是在一個禮拜之前那請問一下你們有去查嗎"},{"start":9657.998,"end":9685.224,"text":"這後來我們有請同仁去追查那因為這個產品它是夾帶進來我們之前沒有在當場收到那後來去查那個產品已經沒有辦法去做可是它有影片啊那影片我們就是追查那個人就是請人就是當事人來做說明那這個會有所謂的罰則有沒有找當事人來做說明的"},{"start":9686.181,"end":9713.976,"text":"我們的分屬的同仁有去做做做訪談有做訪談啊那有沒有確認說的確是從中國帶回來這個東西那這部分我可能要再確認一下因為這部分還在做訪談當中的記錄我沒有看到那你了解一下那等一下跟本席來報告一下就是說這個結果是怎麼樣好不好因為他已經違反了這個我們的這個動物傳染病防治條例了嘛對不對對他是因實施的檢驗物不能帶進來"},{"start":9715.046,"end":9743.813,"text":"那現在尤其暑假又快到了其實我也很擔心啊暑假到了可能這個兩岸這邊這個往返的人會越來越多那怎麼樣去再來防範類似這一種帶回來他是我認為他是知道了然後還故意在這一個他的這一個直播節目上面還說什麼從這一個中國帶回來那怎麼去防範就是說現在暑假快到了有可能是兩岸的這一個來往會比較頻繁有類似犯這種情況的"},{"start":9744.895,"end":9768.961,"text":"跟委員說明原則上當事人知不知道這個是不能帶進來我不曉得啦那原則上就是說我們在宣導方面我們會再強化我們可能在就是在出入境的整個人流當中我們再強化有一些人不曉得因為這個東西其實在以前我們的國人同胞很少會帶這種就是所謂的珍珠彈這個進來那以前我們在東南亞所謂的壓載彈這部分是很明確"},{"start":9772.482,"end":9800.33,"text":"所以在東亞的一些旅客他們都了解這個不能帶的但是中國這所謂的珍珠彈這之前很少人有聽過所以這個我們在加強宣導方面這算是活體的啊理論上它是有做加熱其實加熱也不行就是我們在活動檢疫物裡面如果所有加工也是要經過申請那這個也不能說因為他不知道就不發啊"},{"start":9801.737,"end":9828.345,"text":"當然要法,如果我不曉得當事人知不知道,可能有些民眾也不曉得所以你們要加強宣傳,但是我是認為說這不可能不知道這個是違法的啦當然我們之前的宣傳都是做假的啊不過我想齁,這件事情的處理就是說,剛才我們防險組署長已經有提過了他們的分署會去訪談,那訪談如果是確定他是從中國帶的雖然說當下已經沒有那個實證了,但是他如果筆錄過程中這影片有啊"},{"start":9829.846,"end":9841.992,"text":"對 影片有時候他會說他造假他隨便說說啦所以變成說他如果真正的筆錄過程裡面他確認說他也承認他是從中國帶進來的話那就會依照相關的處罰的規定去處罰"},{"start":9844.233,"end":9859.175,"text":"那第二個部分就是我們會在機場邊境去做更加強的一個宣導我覺得我們現在很重視整個肉類製品慢慢的那個帶進來的旅客那個比例有越來越低了"},{"start":9860.076,"end":9882.479,"text":"動直率的方法 然後現在像這種有點加熱 會讓人家覺得說好像是可以的那這個誤解的部分 我想我們會用圖卡的方式或其他的方式能夠讓更多人知道 這個我們會來努力好 那署長去查一下 看你們這個訪談結果怎麼樣那今天跟本席報告一下那我再跟這個部長請教一下"},{"start":9885.123,"end":9911.401,"text":"這個齁 在美國 他有查到說有一種這個有毒的真菌 河谷蓮苞菌這個就是蓮苞菌 它這個走私到美國去他們認為說這是一種這個潛在的農業恐怖主義的武器那我也記得說在幾年前台灣有類似這種案子 但當然不是這種菌就是說從中國那邊也有寄一些不明的一些種子啊土壤來到台灣"},{"start":9912.582,"end":9933.257,"text":"我跟委員說明就是河谷連刀菌正式的學名叫連刀菌不是連包菌那這個菌其實在台灣已經有發生的紀錄包括在小麥包括在玉米還有包括在稻米都有發生這樣的一個情況然後最主要是河本科然後他的致病"},{"start":9933.917,"end":9949.13,"text":"病原是不會比我們的道樂病的那個病原還強啦所以他現在目前是在檢疫的規定裡面不是因斯檢疫的項目之一那為什麼美國這位說他這是我要講的第二個重點就是說"},{"start":9949.89,"end":9967.516,"text":"那是因為他附著在植物種子帶進來那個可能危害個別危害比較輕微可以後續可以防治處理但是你如果純粹拿這個菌種菌種帶進來的話就有可能像剛才我也有提到可能變成一個灰色攻擊"},{"start":9968.776,"end":9985.39,"text":"就是說他可以混在任何的方式去做做特意的撒播的時候那就會變成短時間之內大面積的危害那樣的一個情況可能就會造成一些恐慌啊或是方式在台灣之前有發生過"},{"start":9988.351,"end":10009.251,"text":"有這個病但是沒有說被人用這種濃縮的菌種去做惡意的散布啦這個是沒有啦但是我們可能也要預防啦所以後續我也要求我們防監署未來針對在X光檢驗的時候因為它包裝應該會比較特殊嘛如果看到的話要特別去加強去查處啦"},{"start":10010.112,"end":10036.414,"text":"這是第一個部分然後回歸到田間的時候我們現在目前對這支菌的防治方法都已經都有一些現有的防治的技術跟防治的藥劑然後主要的那個品種像水稻或玉米都有一些抗病的品種那這樣的話也會降低萬一被惡意的做那個傳播的時候也會有基本的抗性"},{"start":10037.395,"end":10053.564,"text":"所以基本上在台灣是有技術去克服說這種如果說進來的話它的蔓延對我們已經因為它本身就已經存在在台灣了對好OK那我再請教一下那那個書長請回我再請教一下這個農業金融署的這個李書長"},{"start":10059.667,"end":10082.718,"text":"這個請教一下就是說這個央行在從去年開始那就陸陸續續有一些這個打房的一些措施那其中有央行的理事有提到說那會不會有可能這個有關土建農的貸款或是說一些民間的這些貸款跑到這個農會信用部去所以我想請問一下從去年大概年底到現在"},{"start":10083.999,"end":10094.672,"text":"有關於這個農漁會的信用部的這一個有關土建農的貸款還有這一個你們是有所謂的這個農安貸款嗎這個比例有增加嗎"},{"start":10096.701,"end":10114.068,"text":"是 各位報告那農安貸款的話大概最近一年他大概每個月承作的建樹跟進口是大概相當並沒有明顯的增加沒有明顯的增加對 那另外針對信用部承作土建農的情況我們每個月都有在追蹤然後都有在督導以上"},{"start":10114.668,"end":10142.197,"text":"我是說有沒有成長的比例啊從去年比如說九月到現在一年的時間有沒有這個成長啊相關的那個比例我是不是可以匯報再提供給委員不過我們每個月都是有在注意的好 那就你的印象所及有成長嗎應該是大概差不多沒有特別的成長沒有說因為銀行那邊比較難貸款的他跑來我們這個農業會信用部來貸款大概因為農安貸款是從大概兩年前開始推廣第一年的時候大概成長的速度比較快那大概這一年大概是已經有趨緩的現象"},{"start":10144.448,"end":10158.881,"text":"那你這個把這個相關的數字給我因為我去查資料至少到去年年底是有增加的啦但是你是認為說這個算是屬於還算是正常現象那你把這個相關數字提供給本席參考好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝署長好謝謝"},{"start":10188.095,"end":10189.756,"text":"我們接下來請憲一鳳委員質詢謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長請陳部長委員好"},{"start":10208.534,"end":10225.322,"text":"部長我看到你說對於農業保險的這個就是說我們希望修正的在6年以後就是降低成補助就是可以達60%這個上限你不建議拿掉是不是是"},{"start":10227.352,"end":10254.406,"text":"我覺得說我們今天在討論因為六年快到了嘛我們必須要來討論嘛那今天討論的很多委員所講的就是覆蓋率不高的問題是不是那你認為拿掉這個60%的上限對於法律沒有一個確定性讓公務人員也沒有遵循的標準那我們還有幾種修法啊"},{"start":10255.006,"end":10269.789,"text":"對不對我們畢竟在這個目前這個農業保險沒有一個像我們來提到說保單的這個品項沒有辦法涵蓋全方面例如"},{"start":10270.59,"end":10284.096,"text":"像我們今年彰化縣的荔枝因為低溫灼果不成所以導致於產量受損但是過去的農業保險的保單內容只有舊氣溫太高"},{"start":10287.418,"end":10310.134,"text":"相關性來提出相關的保單而沒有對於氣溫太低造成灼果不易產生產果量不足這樣子的一個情況給予他的一個保單的內容嗎那這個部分你們未來怎麼樣子來提供相關的保單呢"},{"start":10310.994,"end":10318.609,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員的一個提問特別是委員提這樣的一個案子其實也讓我們有機會能夠重新去思考"},{"start":10319.4,"end":10348.84,"text":"那因為委員的版本把6年以下的劃掉了以後然後第二項又加了前項要去做滾動檢討嘛那變成前項只有變成前面5年而已前面5年已經過了就還是我們增加就是說增加6年或者是就是留著把它留著以後然後第二項說要做滾動的檢討這第一個第二個部分我覺得委員一個重要的精神我們有catch到就是說"},{"start":10350.02,"end":10360.307,"text":"我們要協助在某一個條件之下讓農民的保費能夠少繳一點那我們是希望用什麼用"},{"start":10361.4,"end":10388.659,"text":"一個條件我舉個例子他如果每年都從事同樣作物的保險的時候那相對的他的保費是可以打折的我們用保費打折的概念會讓農民有一個另外一個誘因我不是跟天氣對賭今年好像颱風會來我就來保明年好像機會不大就不保我希望他們是一個持續性的投保那這樣子的話保險的覆蓋力不是保險的整個分擔風險的"},{"start":10390.259,"end":10405.035,"text":"程度會變大那如果說連續兩年或連續三年都有保的時候我的保費的打折的比例我可以調整那這樣其實也達到委員的目的就是因為保費打折的也要等於政府增加嘛"},{"start":10405.975,"end":10424.844,"text":"那其實也是達到同仁的目的但是對農民來講不會造成農民說這都建物來出了我就不要去管理了不要去幹什麼可是問題是目前我們在涵蓋率不足的情況下我們就已經到了這個6年要就是降低成就是保費補助只能60%的上限"},{"start":10427.045,"end":10446.356,"text":"那當然對於農民的這樣的投保率以及我們希望拉高這個就是農業保險的覆蓋率那會不會也有相關的你知道嗎農民也會覺得說未來整個保費的補助以及相關的誘因不足的情況下"},{"start":10447.236,"end":10463.074,"text":"那我們怎麼樣子來增加農民的提保率有可能他們就不要啊是不是所以我才會說我們現在更重要的作為是提高保端的品質去設計一些真正的符合農民需求的而且每一張保端的"},{"start":10464.075,"end":10482.111,"text":"對你提到了設計保單那今天我們金管會的保險局也有來那對於農民的保單的設計那當然了會不會我們產業界的就是說所有的保險公司他們不願意共同的投入會不會"},{"start":10483.031,"end":10511.179,"text":"我先跟委員說明也許金管會等一下再說明我覺得現在我們遇到的商業的保險公司其實他都還蠻樂意配合政策的那現在很重要一點就是我們保險的風險有沒有過去累積的資料並不夠長所以他在有限的資料去設計的時候那個風險值會變高風險值一變高的時候保費就會變高保費變高的時候農民看到這個保費也不想保了"},{"start":10511.839,"end":10526.207,"text":"所以變成一個惡性循環但是隨著時間拉長你的保險本身的數據的累積夠多的時候就能夠趨近於一個比較合理的風險值而且我們會看就像剛才委員有提到的"},{"start":10526.607,"end":10545.511,"text":"如果商業型保單現在平均的理賠率47那47我剛才說的好的理賠率應該是70到80包括可以扣除它的成本那如果比較低的話我們就會希望它能夠降低保費做一個動態的調整那這個東西就是我們現在在努力的"},{"start":10545.691,"end":10559.183,"text":"但是對啊這是你們農業部期待的方向但是商業保險這些保險公司有沒有辦法共同配合國家的政策嗎這也是我們在下一波應該要共同來檢討的"},{"start":10560.885,"end":10588.644,"text":"你說到了去年的我看到你說去年我們的天然災害救助的八十幾億那去年的災損是多少錢我的資料只有到112年112年是150億左右那隨著氣候變遷的條件因此加劇的情況下會不會導致於我們天然災害的這個受損的金額越來越高呢"},{"start":10589.324,"end":10611.944,"text":"你有觀察到相關的趨勢嗎這個趨勢一定是逐步的上升啦等於說我們現在的像去年上個颱風那今年還沒有到颱風季真的颱風來我們已經因為低溫有沒有造成一些開花不結果的這個品項公告的品項有超過60項已經蠻高了表示說"},{"start":10614.061,"end":10628.633,"text":"就是極端的天后造成農業經營不確定性越來越高這個越來越高的時候以去年大概農損大概500多億那我相信今年也不會太低啦以現在的天后來講也不會太低所以"},{"start":10629.313,"end":10643.119,"text":"當我們加入了農業保險這樣子的項目能不能共同的來幫助我們涵蓋所有受災農民的這樣子的一個"},{"start":10645.08,"end":10662.81,"text":"受災的金額 有沒有辦法共同來協助這就是我們未來的目標我們會再跟商業保險公司剛才也有委員提到農會也是一個可以承保的單位那農會跟農民的互動會更好也許我們可以共同努力還有一個重點就是"},{"start":10663.61,"end":10681.744,"text":"中央跟地方因為農業部現在出百分一般都出二分之一那有些品項是地區型的品項地方政府會再加碼甚至於加了百分之三十百分之四十所以農民有時候只負擔百分之十百分之二十所以這個比例在這個法定其實"},{"start":10682.825,"end":10697.916,"text":"我覺得它不會影響到中央跟地方的合作啦所以後續我想我們一定會透過中央跟地方的合作如果適當的品項的時候看怎麼樣去協助農民來做這個分擔如果風險高的話也許它的比例可以提高一點"},{"start":10698.576,"end":10713.882,"text":"好還有你說的你去年你就答應我了今年你三個豬瘟都拔針了你說我們拔針的時候台灣的稻谷是不是可以輸到日本"},{"start":10714.656,"end":10730.846,"text":"臺灣在什麼 稻谷 稻桿對 我們現在也在處理這個區塊因為臺灣的稻草啦對 稻草 稻桿嘛 做榻榻米我們現在已經在談了因為當初他們有一個理由就是因為我們還有這些傳統豬瘟存在"},{"start":10732.307,"end":10755.762,"text":"那現在沒有了包括我們的豬肉的生煎豬肉的削日本還有相關的稻草的削日其實他們也蠻需要業者也蠻需要的做榻榻米啊那些東西所以我們同步已經在跟他們在談而且我們自己也可以處理我們的農費嘛對不對減少減少那個人家燒稻感吧委員關憲的我們一直在做啦那現在目前進行了怎樣喔 談判的東西齁還要再跟他們讀啦"},{"start":10760.303,"end":10782.781,"text":"還沒如成功是不是這個要繼續努力啦還有啊剛才有委員提到我們彰化的194號米是你們農改廠出來的啊是不是是不是也應該要共同的推銷到日本嘛它的那個米相跟傳統的日本米的米相是不一樣的不是月光米的這種品種嘛我跟委員報告我們現在有個想法就是"},{"start":10783.542,"end":10811.118,"text":"我們會針對不同地區的特色米會建立地區的品牌然後會跟日方的通路做連結像今年二月初我們就邀請了日方的幾個大的商社來台灣然後我們有做一個簡單的媒合讓他們了解台灣到底有多少種米讓他們試吃可是他們有擴大嘛對不對我們台灣米蔬日有擴大對不對"},{"start":10812.799,"end":10837.858,"text":"沒有 擴大是固定的但是如果說我們的族群鎖定在比較高端的話它的配額外的關稅就算比較高那個售價還是有利潤的啦好 那這個部分再麻煩你協助好不好會 一定會有協助我們彰化有非常多的米喔都是可以適合去外銷到日本去的而且要建立特有的品牌啦這個我想我們會來努力好 那那個美國的對等關稅7月8號會談完嗎我們"},{"start":10841.804,"end":10854.242,"text":"台美的關稅現在正在談判中那農業部的立場還是一致的就是在確保糧食安全產業永續的情形之下我們會尋求一個雙贏貿易雙贏的一個方法"},{"start":10857.206,"end":10885.032,"text":"那我們不會放棄水稻讓它變成外界炒作的關稅會不會最後要拿我們的農業去換我想總統已經宣示了很多次包括院長也說的農民農漁民優先我們絕對不會犧牲農業來換取工業的一個利益那這個部分一定是國家整體考量那農業部有農業部的堅持我們也一定會堅持那7月8號會出來嗎"},{"start":10887.728,"end":10899.361,"text":"照理論上應該要一定要出來啦我相信會吧我相信因為美國就三個月嘛三個月他就一定要處理啊那我覺得我們現在正在做積極的談判啊我希望"},{"start":10907.748,"end":10916.8,"text":"什麼時候出來不是重點出來的結果是我們能夠大家都很開心的那才是重點所以你也不確定7月8號因為談判還在進行當中好 謝謝"},{"start":10936.749,"end":10938.57,"text":"主席我想請陳主委陳部長陳部長部長早已經午安了我想要呼應一下前面幾位委員都有談到有關於農保清朝讓非常多的農民都非常恐慌這件事情請問一下SOP什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":10962.276,"end":10978.855,"text":"包括說可能被退保的人什麼時候會有補救的機會讓他們有一個緩衝的時間然後把他的農保救回來的機會呢我想謝謝委員的提問我知道委員也非常關心就是農保保了"},{"start":10979.736,"end":10983.139,"text":"一輩子很長的時間以後然後在那個六四四那個節點就判生死所以我們也體認到委員的這種關心而且實務上所以我們現在有個設計就是往前我們先主動的清查如果發現說你可能不符合規定的時候"},{"start":11001.156,"end":11012.215,"text":"我們就主動的希望他趕快補件那我舉個例子有一些土地的買賣我們可以用資料庫勾結那買賣的當下可能農民"},{"start":11013.53,"end":11041.113,"text":"不了解那個嚴重性沒錯如果說他買賣的時候我們發現了我們就提前的跟他講那他要趕快去補那個地他還有一些時間點但他會預留多少時間讓他去補呢我覺得我們現在初步規定大概半年是比較適當因為太長也沒有用我覺得合理大概半年之內所以我們三個月之內會有我們現在很多規範基本上我們不希望"},{"start":11042.234,"end":11059.101,"text":"農民花了那麼多的年去保保以後會被這個判生死然後就失去了他領這個老農年金的機會過去很多其實都不是農業部願意主動去查都是審計部邀請我們去查這個我完全理解但是還是希望說農業部"},{"start":11061.042,"end":11074.738,"text":"盡速的把那個機制喔把它公告出來讓所有的農民有一個依據甚至所有在辦這個檢查農保的這些人員喔可以有一個依據然後他們懂得怎麼去協助他們否則基層的辦事人員他"},{"start":11077.862,"end":11097.752,"text":"等於是兩手一攤他也幫不上忙他不是不願意幫忙而是不知道怎麼幫忙如果像部長所講的有一個這麼好的機制就是說他有半年可以補救甚至說他如果遇到其他的什麼問題他可以怎麼解決讓他們有一個補件的機會的話那這樣子很明確的把它列出來的話讓所有的"},{"start":11099.633,"end":11124.087,"text":"包括我們的農民包括我們的辦事人員都有所依據我想你農業部接收到的陳情也會減少就會從基層就把這件事情解決會部長您同意嗎對我同意所以我三個月之內我們會把這個SOP包括一些該注意的指引跟事項特別是有一個農一個農地裡面的水池要不要扣掉水塔要不要扣掉這些細節細節也讓"},{"start":11126.508,"end":11142.525,"text":"這些地方的人能夠更清楚更明確的清楚那就特別拜託部長可以繼續追蹤這個事情趕快落實下來三個月內趕快提出這個公告讓大家可以知道整個SOP然後細節怎麼規範讓大家有所依據好嗎好謝謝那部長你知道琉璃椅嗎"},{"start":11149.79,"end":11162.318,"text":"知道 琉璃椅大概每年大概這個時間點 是不是是 最近這個琉璃椅的擴散問題喔越演越烈那以本席所在的雲林為例啊琉璃椅的通報件數從2019年的50件"},{"start":11165.6,"end":11168.623,"text":"到去年喔已經暴增到700件了那今年有可能還會再增加那尤其以林內鄉古坑鄉的蟻害最為嚴重啊所以這個琉璃蟻它不只是危害多種的果樹包括"},{"start":11183.878,"end":11190.701,"text":"這個蜂蜜產業蜜蜂產業也對從事農事的這些農民造成實質的傷害因為葉嘎啷嘛所以這個學界明確指出說琉璃蟻入侵會導致作物害這個從病蟲害加劇那對於農業農業的實質危害已經構成了面對這樣子的問題不曉得部長現在有沒有解決的方案呢"},{"start":11208.68,"end":11224.119,"text":"我跟委員報告雖然說以農業部現在的規範來講琉璃椅不認為因為它不會危害農作物所以我們不認為它是一個農業的害蟲但是我覺得不能說不認為農業的害蟲我們就不理它"},{"start":11225.222,"end":11252.604,"text":"第二個部分是我覺得要處理這件事情也絕對不是在農業的田間去處理可能在居家的環境也要處理所以我會在會後我會盡速安排跟衛務部起動 對不起 環境部起動一個工作平台看要怎麼樣子的去共同的防治雖然說它不是農業害同但是我覺得我們可以有更積極的態度去處理"},{"start":11253.945,"end":11268.341,"text":"因為每一年都發生每一年都會發生而且在這個季節所以不及時的處理的時候我覺得受害的是我們的民眾或是我們農民所以我會主動的成立一個工作平台看怎麼樣共同來解決"},{"start":11269.142,"end":11296.35,"text":"太棒了 這個如果部長主動來做這件事情我相信所有農民都會給你泡泡真的因為已經影響到他們的一般的這個作業的工作的這個過程包括也入侵了很多校園 住宅等等那如果說趕快我們農業部發起主動跟他們有一個跨部會的這個討論我想這是非常非常的重要因為學界他要指出說這個"},{"start":11297.35,"end":11314.09,"text":"琉璃蟻是從東南亞傳來的外來種那依法其實是希望說農業部要趕快啟動這個嚴格管理機制那是不是要列為害蟲這個我想你們有一個評估的標準啊但是我想要建議部長的"},{"start":11315.071,"end":11318.973,"text":"意思就是說其實過去像這個荔枝樁巷我們當初不就編了1.5億的預算然後跟地方合力釋放它的天敵這個貧富小豐然後再往前看紅火椅的時候那時候也有成立一個國家紅火椅防治中心打造一個全民的這個通報平台"},{"start":11336.624,"end":11351.804,"text":"那是不是喔面對這個琉璃同樣的這個擴散這麼迅速然後跨場域的影響災害能不能喔等於是設立一個研議一個這個常設的害蟲防治中心啊就是"},{"start":11353.085,"end":11366.091,"text":"不是只是針對琉璃椅不是只是針對琉璃椅是不是農業部能夠有一個害蟲防治中心是常設的然後針對不同的物種是不是等於是病蟲害等等都可以在這邊"},{"start":11368.252,"end":11383.909,"text":"討論我跟委員報告尤其還有那個小黑文小黑文為什麼三年就裁測掉了你知道現在小黑文有多嚴重嗎是不是主委除了劉立以之外小黑文的問題也一起跟衛福部討論我的一手都被小黑文咬了"},{"start":11384.509,"end":11411.36,"text":"不是不是小黑文真的很嚴重耶我跟委員報告就是您剛才所說的建議其實我們現在已經在規劃而不是純粹農業害重我們是農業的病蟲害的監測防治的中心是然後在這個中心之下我希望幾個主要的產區都有一個類似區域中心的這種概念然後它包括了很多監測所以我們現在也在陸陸續續跟幾個學校在談合作的"},{"start":11412.46,"end":11431.509,"text":"因為不能只靠農業部或是農業部所屬單位還有跟學校可以一起來做這樣的話才能夠有更系統的防治特別是針對一些琉璃椅的部分會等到工作平台去處理的時候因為他要同步去啟動而不是只有農業這邊來啟動如果說需要的經費我想我們也會想辦法來爭取來支持這樣的一個防治的作為"},{"start":11437.032,"end":11444.193,"text":"這一點也要特別請主委關心趕快編預算然後趕快落實那甚至整個琉璃你們現在因應的整個方向你們跨部會討論出來的時候是不是也可以給我們委員會一個報告讓我們所有的委員我想關心的委員也很多能夠有一個很明確的知道說農業部現在已經很積極的在處理這件事情那當然剛剛講到的小黑文這個也要拜託這個部長因為"},{"start":11465.697,"end":11484.108,"text":"才三年喔 這個小黑文的這個就裁撤掉了嘛 這個防治中心喔裁撤掉了 那現在其實小黑文的問題並沒有減少不能夠變成習以為常 就忘記了小黑文的影響這個齁 我想我們在工作平台會跟環境部來建議啦因為小黑文是環境部在處理的啦"},{"start":11486.51,"end":11510.501,"text":"既然你要跟他講琉璃椅這個小黑文就拜託部長也一起跟他提到時候我也會過去他們那邊跟他們講我們環境部有很好的溝通的平台啦包括一些循環再利用的場域啦這些東西所以我想我們應該很快會有一個比較好的方案那到時候這個會議的一些相關的決議我們也會讓經濟委員會的所有委員都知道"},{"start":11511.121,"end":11514.242,"text":"謝謝 那另外我想要再請問部長有關於老農津貼排富門檻的問題因為自100年起老農津貼就是設有這個排富門檻就是如果他有不動產超過500萬就是不能夠領這個老農津貼那到現在已經14年了都沒有更新這個排富條款的門檻那其實這當中房價漲了6至8成"},{"start":11540.514,"end":11547.138,"text":"14年來已經漲了房價已經飛漲了那物價上升了18%所以呢這個排富的標準門檻還留在這個14年前就是民國100年的水準喔已經嚴重失衡所以有很多真正在務農的老農因為他的"},{"start":11559.646,"end":11575.127,"text":"房產升值而被排除在津貼領取的範圍之內所以他的生活權益也受損了這一點不曉得主委上次也有提起說你會趕快積極去修改這個部分我第一個跟委員說明就是"},{"start":11575.988,"end":11590.076,"text":"其實農業部有農業部所規劃的一個版本那以現在來看的話其實影響到現在目前必須調整有兩個因素一個是您剛才所提的物價指數的部分它漲了大概15、16"},{"start":11592.237,"end":11614.757,"text":"一個更重要的是土地的公告限值漲了百分之六十幾對六成至八成因地區不等所以說我們也認同說適度的排富的現在的條件包括你的所得包括你的那個自有住宅的扣除還有你的財產所得這三個部分我們會做適度的調整"},{"start":11615.538,"end":11637.038,"text":"那我們現在大概規劃會送到行政院以後在下個會議會送進來所以已經有規劃了規劃的方向可以稍微讓我們知道一下嗎委員大概有十幾個版本我們的規劃的方向大概在委員版本的中間中間就是取則中這樣子我們不是這樣取的我們有一個計算公式"},{"start":11637.578,"end":11658.295,"text":"那這個計算公式到時候也可能要讓我們所有委員理解因為現在還沒有抱怨因為所有東西必須抱怨以後才能夠對外大方向是朝大家的方向是一致的其實我也要跟部長說我們經濟委員會的所有委員甚至所有關心農業的所有委員其實都可以成為你的助力"},{"start":11658.695,"end":11676.505,"text":"在你抱怨之前假設你的版本先讓我們大家知道我們甚至都可以協助你說服行政院趕快通過這個版本我們是可以來等於是說大家互相幫忙只要是對農民有利的我們是不分你我一起來努力讓這個趕快來落實"},{"start":11678.566,"end":11700.04,"text":"我第一個先謝謝所有經濟委員會的委員不管是任何黨派的我覺得對農業都是支持的其實我們擔心的是在黨團那邊的提案這個你也非常清楚第二個部分就是像這個案子其實我們有信心我們可以用我們的數據去說服行政院來支持這個我們絕對有信心"},{"start":11702.161,"end":11731.281,"text":"如果你有需要的時候請你不要客氣你就把這個需求發出來我們大家共同來支持那最後呢我真的是也希望說這些老農因為他們這一輩子務農如果我們的排富條款門檻不與時俱進的話把他們排除在外讓他們沒有辦法受到他們應有的保障我覺得是很心酸所以也希望我們在做這件事的時候能夠常常記起他們的這個心酸跟他們的需求"},{"start":11731.681,"end":11758.253,"text":"我們會來努力好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答好做以上宣告我們中午不休息延長開會時間好謝謝召委那我們是不是有請我們部長陳部長"},{"start":11768.587,"end":11787.138,"text":"喂吼 部長 現在一起的稻作那現在差不多等於收割啦對阿大概這個禮拜應該都陸續在收那當然現在當然農民比較擔心的是接下來這個蝴蝶颱風這隻蝴蝶會在後面背來背去我們這邊所以大家也很高興因為風太大就剩割 那個季節就會受到影響"},{"start":11793.582,"end":11803.906,"text":"現在的價格不錯,現在我們推動的糧食產業升級方案現在的產地糧價百台幣都是一千一百多現在的價格大概一百五十一百五十,三下過去當然也有九百也有八百"},{"start":11819.412,"end":11826.237,"text":"去年齁 去年是不錯喔 去年差不多一千二百元 但是去年勒沒有啦 去年比較高 去年比較高 不過去年沒中 去年稍微缺一點所以今年是很好喔 今年我這樣聽起來 農民有收十八塊 也有十九塊甚至喔 用料比較好的有拚到二十塊喔"},{"start":11839.167,"end":11858.283,"text":"他拚到二十塊就有差不多一千一百五十塊的一個收入的話今年對於稻農來說他們是豐收的一年所以我想柏中這應該也清楚你去年你要推動的整個糧食政策我覺得這個大方向有朝著你們農業部的一個期待我跟委員報告"},{"start":11860.225,"end":11872.963,"text":"去年的平均價在這段時間平均價大概是980左右980、990左右提供去年喔去年去年一起做今年大概是1100左右啦所以你看嘛我們"},{"start":11874.648,"end":11885.417,"text":"雖然說沒有像委員要求到公糧到五塊錢我們是希望說糧沒有 民糧能夠拉高對於整個產業都有幫助嗎那的確我們如果民糧拉高的話就對農民來說他會不要繳公糧對啊我賣給民糧我反而還更好啊所以這個才是一個健康的一個糧食的一個方向所以我覺得這個農業的這個價格的"},{"start":11898.928,"end":11905.716,"text":"就是說糧食價格這件事對農民來說它是最直接有感的所以你們要怎麼樣再繼續去推動讓我們不要說今年好而已以後這種就是要保持著這樣的一個力道我覺得這件事就很重要"},{"start":11915.928,"end":11936.708,"text":"那當然啦齁,農作就是這樣啦齁,因為我記得我上個月齁,我們在這邊的時候,那我有聽到包括戴華委員,包括廷飛委員,事實上他們在講的,是說他們那裡有遇到災害,他們的稻谷有遇到災害,啊我們嘉義當然沒有,我們現在收起來看起來是齁,整個是一個順利的方向,所以就是說,"},{"start":11937.469,"end":11963.436,"text":"事實上整個農業受到天然災害的影響啊每個地方會有每個地方的一些差異性就比方啦就比方我最近我去沙町這樣走沙町的農民也是有很大的一個落差喔今年的果農吃壞保證你也知道所以說像水養的啦、淋浴的都沒收成水養、奶雞、淋浴"},{"start":11964.896,"end":11980.652,"text":"所有都不繳 都沒有繳費啦所以就是沒有收金 所以那個就沒有了沒有費就漂亮啦有費啦 有費沒錢啦 沒錢啦所以就看起來說果農的部分今年是收成是不好的"},{"start":11981.572,"end":12007.017,"text":"啊大概他們說是因為氣候因素天氣比較冷所以雖然開花可是後來沒有結果所以沒有收成但是氣候冷咧對山頂進地理的地農他們今年大風修對地農都要點得好他們抓今年的茶 哇茶農都收很多所以整個氣候的因素對於農業來說它就是一個"},{"start":12008.934,"end":12017.86,"text":"第一不穩定第二每一個氣候的一個干擾的一個影響如果不是說一次做大水這種的純粹是氣溫的影響每個作物都不一樣每個作物不一樣他們所需要他們認為適當的那個農作物要成長的溫度不一樣所以這個都會牽扯到的說我們今天在討論農業保險這塊的時候那它的標準怎麼定以及說他們一旦"},{"start":12037.231,"end":12045.158,"text":"遇到減產的時候要怎麼把這個氣溫的因素討論好我覺得這件事情農業部應該就是要再跟每一個產業別然後應該去討論說現主席這個農業保險他的認定標準是不是有符合這個農產品的品項我想保留這個也很重要吧"},{"start":12059.068,"end":12080.2,"text":"我就說我們現在會重新檢討每一個保單裡面的天氣山數到底它的數據到底是不是正確性是不是必須再做確認因為一些什麼樣的溫度會什麼樣的影響這可能都需要靠我們的專家去確認我們重新來檢討那必須調整的我們會立即來調整"},{"start":12082.71,"end":12102.982,"text":"所以這個很重要啦第二個就是說剛剛很多委員都有講到事實上老農津貼的這個牌幅的這個條款因為14年沒有調整嘛這14年來事實上你看物價的波動消費者物價指數是成長了16%如果你以土地的一個價值的漲幅來講漲了65%"},{"start":12105.143,"end":12114.267,"text":"所以事實上我也有提案我在上一個會期就提案這個會期我依然是把我上個會期的提案我仍然要求說這個排付條款應該要調整那排付條款要調整咧兩個層面的問題第一類就是說這個土地"},{"start":12121.189,"end":12141.478,"text":"這個土地 農民他持有土地可是這個土地不應該會造成說我最後我失去我去領這個老農津貼那或者是我的收入是多少我感覺我們在訂這個排富條款事實上對農民來說是一種剝削而且事實上柏中你可以再認真想"},{"start":12142.358,"end":12149.472,"text":"你如果想說有很多農民他可能因為排富的因素有可能他們住在這裏住他們這裏住超過標準他都不會住"},{"start":12153.257,"end":12176.777,"text":"或者他要過戶給他的子女他要過戶給子女但是這都會造成家庭的一些狀況啊所以我是覺得這種相對對農民是不公平的所以我們如果站在照顧老農的立場上我真的覺得這個排戶條款應該要檢討甚至我們可以說是不是可以讓這個排日條款就進入就讓他落日了部長"},{"start":12177.959,"end":12189.199,"text":"我非常認同委員所提的委員一直常常關心這些老農津貼的排富的部分因為像委員講的如果因為排富設定的不好"},{"start":12190.031,"end":12212.754,"text":"被逼著要賣房子造成後面的分家會造成更大的困擾所以我們也針對剛才您所提的土地的公告限值過去這麼多年來漲幅了百分之六十幾那這個部分我們有重新去試算包括你的所得包括你的財產的總額還有一個你如果自住房的這些可以扣抵的"},{"start":12213.194,"end":12238.791,"text":"我們都有適度的做調整根據相關的一個公式那我們希望說這樣透過這樣的一個比較制度化的公式那後續我們就可以每隔四年就可以滾動同步來檢討而不是純粹只是調整那個CPI而已還可以排付可以同步的去做一個處理那這個部分我想我們預計在下個會期我們在這個會期就會送到行政院去經過審議然後下個會期會進到立法院來做處理"},{"start":12243.334,"end":12266.835,"text":"好我想部長事實上我們對於農業的照顧對於農民的照顧是最基礎的一塊啦所以雖然說大家都說老農今天造成政府幾十億的預算的支出但是這都是必要支出啊因為這樣的農業人口我們要希望他可以留在農村這個對農村才是實質的有幫助所以這塊我覺得保證我們真的要"},{"start":12268.777,"end":12272.199,"text":"檢討好一個比較好的方式讓這些老農他們活得有尊嚴事實上你說每個月才領個八千一百塊也不是很多啦那說實在不是這麼多啦事實上這個錢只是說因為他就是有務農他過去的務農"},{"start":12284.764,"end":12308.916,"text":"那我們希望他繼續留在農村啊縱使老農沒做啊他沒實際下去做啊實際上老農是都拚到拚到七六八六到八十幾要做的啦但是就算他沒做啊他帶他的經驗穿修給他學一年這也是很好的農村就是需要這些人留在農村啊好不好我想我一定會朝這個方向來努力那我也相信啊我們的版本應該會讓委員滿意啦"},{"start":12313.151,"end":12328.412,"text":"好,最後我再問一下,就是說最近開始有人說雞蛋的產能過剩,因為我們知道,目前我們的雞蛋,它的日產量是12萬8千箱"},{"start":12330.214,"end":12351.254,"text":"事實上已經超過國人的需求所以有一點產能過剩事實上這就會開始反而產能過剩就會有後續的狀況的演變尤其現在也要放暑假暑假後一些像營養午餐都沒有再供應這會造成雞蛋的需求可能會相對減少所以這件事是補充 我覺得要注意一下"},{"start":12353.536,"end":12375.651,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒,我對雞蛋的議題一直非常關心特別是除了雞蛋的日產能以外,我覺得一個非常重要的是雞蛋的庫存也要同步考慮因為庫存有時候,他們在做市場機制調節的時候可能庫存壓力更大的時候,它就會降價它不見得直接反映到每一天的蛋產能"},{"start":12376.851,"end":12388.299,"text":"所以這個部分我們已經用一個比較有科學依據的這些調查系統去收集這個資料然後我們也針對彈廠的升級我們也在處理所以我們希望說這個彈能夠"},{"start":12390.487,"end":12407.495,"text":"維持在市場機制之下但是也不會過於太低或太高太低就影響農民的權益這個我想我們會來努力部長事實上大家最近看到像日本他們發生了這個米的價格飆漲然後他們的米的需求"},{"start":12408.335,"end":12429.286,"text":"看起來供給不夠需求事實上大家都在檢討啦所以每一個國家遇到這樣的狀況但是如果有一些狀況我們看到那些徵兆提早來佈局就可以防止類似這樣的狀況的發生這個非常重要就是說我們在徵兆一開始的時候就要進場去處理啦不然等事情"},{"start":12430.246,"end":12435.09,"text":"變得很嚴重的時候 那有很多事情後面的處理都很難處理很難處理 因為到後面的時候 講最白的啦每一次的這種需求問題都是 問題都是出在恐慌啦民眾的恐慌心態 這個恐慌心態一天就嚇起來你政府這個手怎麼出來 也不夠白色 大家緊張"},{"start":12453.944,"end":12469.457,"text":"所以我們事先的佈局把它準備好就可以防止一些可能的狀況發生 好不好好 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝部長 好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡委員我們現在請陳超敏委員"},{"start":12478.933,"end":12481.641,"text":"謝謝子綺,首先有請陳部長陳部長沒關係,喝個水起來"},{"start":12493.379,"end":12507.449,"text":"市長蔡議員說到老農新帖,你說到我們的地價公告地價公告限制已經漲了64%所以這個排污條款一定要趕快"},{"start":12508.92,"end":12520.358,"text":"我又聽你講 下個會期一定會拿出來經過神秘的細算 我希望趕緊拿出來不然現在走到鄉下 天天都被罵你知道為了你們母親的辛苦"},{"start":12523.426,"end":12534.339,"text":"了解 一定會做的只要蔡議員說我們現在雞蛋是生產過剩你怕他註銷不是只註銷說我要調節市場你看美國物價上漲現在的雞蛋說一顆兩顆要到兩百塊"},{"start":12541.667,"end":12553.78,"text":"我們沒有關係我們跟美國關係那麼好如果我們這邊台灣的雞蛋生產的時候我們用灰機板來印過去我們還划算你覺得怎麼樣不可能我們的規模齁"},{"start":12560.146,"end":12574.534,"text":"不夠那麼大而且我們要去推銷先打知名度嘛不要以為小就不做嘛外銷不能說你有存的再買外銷沒有存的我現在是在反俄邪沒關係你給三個美國我們台美友誼堅固堅若磐石表現我們的誠意這樣就不會失效讓美國人來感謝台灣"},{"start":12583.959,"end":12594.409,"text":"雞蛋的進口要很多檢疫的條件要去談判啦所以我們現在我只是一個方向啦好不好再來你會去給日本民家現在飆漲你曉得為什麼會飆漲原因在哪裡"},{"start":12603.234,"end":12632.286,"text":"他的年度的相關的這些稻米的生產他的掌握度不夠啦所以造成一些減產以日本的掌握度集體不會說不夠我告訴你這個原因是怎樣就是日本的旅遊客去得太多你看台灣都跑到日本旅遊世界都跑到日本旅遊所以日本的米覺得好吃所以稻米不夠"},{"start":12633.649,"end":12660.497,"text":"我們台灣啊 本來最多大陸的遊客也沒有過來來得稀稀少少 所謂米家為主 我想他們也不會去這個一個很重要的因素外國旅遊客一天吃一碗不是 一餐吃一碗 一天吃三碗 你要看養的量要多少我們就要想那個土地的貸不是產量控制不足 是他們的旅遊客太多"},{"start":12661.497,"end":12676.366,"text":"而且他們把米是變成一個意識化很多遊客都去廁所加一塊加加一塊米就消失了聽說我們的小日本我不知道是小日本還是小啦你稍微報告一下我收了一下問題我再跟你講米日本的管制機制不亞於我們"},{"start":12682.694,"end":12700.868,"text":"第二個,他的理由靠太高每一個人都給他吃了一碗一碗,一天三碗你要看他量要多少,總言不講所以這種因素你們要去想我跟你說,原因是在這裡我了解,我剛才講的就是說他們其實一個國家的"},{"start":12702.048,"end":12730.327,"text":"作物的生產規劃不只是國內的需求還有外來的需求不要說回答太多啦你的米價就會上漲啦一人吃一碗就不得了了啦好不好禮物客一人一天一餐吃一碗一天三碗米價就會上漲百姓的消息這個良性行為我們去想一下好不好今天主要是說"},{"start":12732.627,"end":12759.119,"text":"我們的農業保險,保證我是最佳推銷員。我今天在農會,或是在農民節,或是在產銷班,我都說三保一軍,就是我們的農民健康保險,我們的農民職業災害保險,我們的農業保險,我叫我農民的鄉親,他們一定要去保養。但是我在上面的營港,"},{"start":12761.445,"end":12774.716,"text":"但是我看他們在聽著聽著,叫做什麼言之沉沉,聽之渺渺,就是覺得沒什麼重要我一直跟你們推銷,我覺得這裏面你們一定要去研究安裝的方法,讓農民能夠高興,又甘願來跟你們做這個保險地我今天給農業保險來說"},{"start":12784.096,"end":12791.923,"text":"你來看你農業保險的覆蓋率從109人9.5%提升到今年53.8%喔 那數字看起來不錯但是 保證 我相信你知道這個農業裡面扣到強制保險的項目啊你的覆蓋率不到20%"},{"start":12805.711,"end":12813.002,"text":"所以這幾年有在推,但是推到不是很成功的你說這個成績,我不能這樣說,你們農業部很怕病這裏面有一個重要的問題就是臨時天然災害,我們現在選擇"},{"start":12823.501,"end":12846.799,"text":"農民已經比較容易承受天然災害,你們農業更加有補助,盡!效率又好!肥料又保險的滿意,感覺這樣整理很好,我雖然補償少一點沒有關係,盡就好!看到你們的效率就好!所以這天然災害保險啦,你說酸肥素,我覺得這個不能保,民眾已經習慣了"},{"start":12848.32,"end":12874.961,"text":"有困難找政府,農業部做得很好,天然災害都沒事,都很快心事反應所以你的農業保險,這裏面就有這個問題第一,我們付出的保費,不去農業保險,你的保險公司不一定賠剛剛有講到天氣各方面的問題在,因為那些銀行吹冷氣的,因為知道地產卡在流汗,天氣的變化"},{"start":12877.728,"end":12905.575,"text":"他們那大樓地,他不了解天氣的變化有多嚴重所以在這個地方,他建造去農業保險的話保險公司不一定賠我叫我保險,他不一定給我賠,我怎麼去保險你再想想看,你不要用單純你的想法你要用農民的想法,要用保險的公司想法現在保管公司,光是貪你這裡的保險,他貪得很難過"},{"start":12907.475,"end":12931.784,"text":"他只是表面上為了社會為了這個民生為了慶三月社會的責任我照顧農民勉勉強強去保險所以這個保費我們政府提款要讓我們農民去保險地這樣農民才會心安你知道嗎誘因不足保費我付了不一定得到賠償"},{"start":12933.419,"end":12960.602,"text":"所以我給你一個概念 你要學經濟部 設立一個中小企業保險基金你農業部份啊 農業維農基金地啊這個基金該進行 他出一塊 北施出一塊那個出一塊 我看你這個概念來我們現在就有農業保險基金啊我曉得你們有啊你只要說我不知道 不然我自己問你幾句 你只要我講喔你只要講 我就不會了我沒有這樣講喔"},{"start":12963.493,"end":12986.778,"text":"好啦,我第一個沒有誘因,因為想了兩次啦還有一個,理賠沒有標準,就我跟你說的那保險公司不曉得農民種什麼,去貨怎麼樣啊沒有標準,不一定能拿到理賠的標準我教你錢又沒有賠,不然天然不治所以啊,農民是要對保險沒有信心希望這方面加強一下"},{"start":12988.284,"end":13009.924,"text":"會 謝謝委員的提醒我們也真的在檢討每一張保單那我希望那個保單是涉及到也真的能夠分擔農民的風險但是也不能讓農民說我投保就是溫暖的這個觀念我們大家會持續的宣導這個部分我想我們會強化你說對啦 不是溫暖的啦但是要有保障"},{"start":13010.424,"end":13016.058,"text":"不然我就天然災害補助我把你拉到你樓梯又繳錢給你又讓你來忙你都不知道這個行為你想說做得很好"},{"start":13020.053,"end":13040.801,"text":"農業人很怕麻煩,捏的藥不是多少錢啊不然我找你農業部天然災害補償的時候,這樣就好我一直在強調一點,你去保養沒拿到錢,我又付錢,我沒一定捏到錢保險的時候是很不穩定啊,沒一定教育的規矩來啊"},{"start":13041.781,"end":13054.533,"text":"那個標準很難定啊 天氣的參差很難掌握我跟妳講 不要用自己的心在想要想過三邊 大家想法會怎樣才會做得成功啊謝謝 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝陳委員我們現在請鍾嘉斌委員做詢答"},{"start":13075.254,"end":13098.016,"text":"主席在場委員先進列席的政府經貿組長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請農業部陳部長然後請畜牧師的李師長另外農經署李署長和農糧署的陳副署長都一併準備第一頁部長好 市長好 署長好 副署長好"},{"start":13099.158,"end":13115.67,"text":"部長先跟你講一下 不錯的消息過去我們糯農一直在埋怨台紐經濟協定紐西蘭的乳製品零關稅進口衝擊到本土糯農的生計結果我們昨天幾位委員開了一個記者會謝謝施長來提供資料這幾年"},{"start":13121.974,"end":13150.361,"text":"零關稅之後紐西蘭的液態乳進口量沒有增加呢市面的銷售金額也沒有下降呢反而是冰磚還原乳啊大量增加都跑掉什麼跑到不是零售通路的那個盒裝牛奶都跑到業務通路的那個手搖飲裡面部長知不知道這個情況我每個禮拜他們都會有包括鮮乳、薄酒乳跟冰磚乳的進口量所以我說的是不是這個情況是所以你們都要補牌換店嘛對不對"},{"start":13152.9,"end":13174.094,"text":"鹵農現在長大減少不是台牛零關稅嘛是鹵廠四大品牌廠大量進口那些冰磚懷孕乳供應到業務通路加在我們手搖飲裡面而且這個占比越來越高不怪我們本土的鹵農他們的生靈啊品牌廠說我不要給你訂那麼多有沒有這個情況 部長"},{"start":13175.677,"end":13198.859,"text":"以現在來看冰莊乳大概每一年大概一萬七千多增加到一萬八現在到六月六月的話它本身的量還在它這個範圍之內沒有暴增的非常厲害所以我是說農業部當時堅持鮮乳標章未來的食品安全就要以鮮乳標示這個地位明年七月要開始實施請農業部繼續跟酪農宣導"},{"start":13201.842,"end":13210.067,"text":"請幫諾農推廣我們的鮮乳一個通路好不好我們現在就要做 一定要做很好 謝謝謝謝市長 謝謝市長我們接下來問農保的問題其實上個月我們辦了一個考察財政委員辦了一個考察到農會去農民就反映了很多農業保險的問題那其中就有提到這個很多"},{"start":13223.029,"end":13241.918,"text":"也能心清天然再救助啦但是沒有那個保險的品項啦或者是說在檳榔樹之間種香蕉或者說椰子樹之間種檳榔只要有檳榔不被認為農作物的檳榔園裡面種有保險保單的這些作物像香蕉是不是農業保險不保"},{"start":13243.931,"end":13255.212,"text":"現在是這樣吧現在是這樣子,就是建做的但是你要知道,我們農民建做一個一個廠房裡面多種作物建做"},{"start":13255.737,"end":13274.102,"text":"是一個常態有他們的道理是不是回去評估一下類似像這樣檳榔園裡面建做香蕉這個香蕉也可以導播可以考慮嗎?辯護一下我覺得可以但這就是面積要重算面積要重算面積要重算應該是可行的你面積跟植株要重新計算可以嗎?請指示署長回去研究"},{"start":13275.502,"end":13293.694,"text":"其實我們來看一下農友反應的問題環環相扣台灣的國賓產值佔了37%一年在我們屏東的產值佔了大概32億新台幣其中你看香蕉是個重要作物但是去年的天災 最近我們常常去行星庭南台叫走的有雷夢嘛 有陸來嘛 有雙鴨嘛 陸來跟雙鴨有多大"},{"start":13300.353,"end":13323.594,"text":"目前沒有嘛所以我們是不是可以說這些農民有在栽作的這些品項保單要不要擴充品項要不要增加可以嗎?可以減價嗎?我想我們對於新保單的開發當然要看它本身的過去的數據夠不夠多才能夠算它的理賠風險這是一個很重要如果說這個數據是可以開始算的話我們就會來啟動"},{"start":13326.917,"end":13353.692,"text":"是然後第二個部分在啟動的過程中我們過往少做的就是我們比較少去我們都是開發完了以後再去跟農民宣導其實在保單設計中就應該跟農民來做參與好所以呢你剛剛講的有幾個品項啦就這個農作物的品項要不要來開發為農業保險的保單包括說它的種植面積它的產量有沒有到一定規模產值是不是夠大因為你沒有這些基本的量不然就沒辦法做嘛是"},{"start":13354.953,"end":13367.151,"text":"是不是說不會賠錢的才能做 有沒有這個規定不會啊 我們現在平均禮賠率是130欸我就跟你講 你看聽起來你講得很理直氣壯禮賠率130欸 就是因為禮賠率130不幫我們公司要做啦"},{"start":13372.651,"end":13391.708,"text":"所以我是說我們農業保險一方面我這個有點讓你為難一方面你要擴大我們作物的保單的品項內容二方面你又要找到那個保險公司你叫他怎麼都沒辦法做啦所以這個農金署要想辦法好不好這樣也用強人所難嘛 要馬而好 要馬而不吃草"},{"start":13393.251,"end":13417.685,"text":"不過現在商業保端的理賠率是47%啦商業保端是47%喔?所以還是有錢賺喔?那就趕快開發啊!我們最多的就是鳳梨釋迦啦!鳳梨釋迦我知道有很多啊!那銀行感到抱,賣你就不要做了喔?會不會這樣?我相信他們明年不會保了,因為過去平均幾年你說保險公司他不承保了是不是這個意思?是那這樣怎麼辦?那是政策保險"},{"start":13418.826,"end":13438.439,"text":"所以政策保險所以農金屬這邊要想辦法有保險公司都是兩張包袋你如果說有很多品行都有來報有的報端料有的報端攤報端公司要做嘛你全部的報端都要料他就不愛做了嘛你們現在賣的最好的保單是什麼來往上是不是水稻是不是水稻水稻的覆蓋率怎麼樣"},{"start":13439.673,"end":13459.124,"text":"學到政策型的保險啊是啊 所以呢 通通要保沒有吧八成 大概八成三八成 因為你們第一個基本型的保險它不用保護 它都幫你保了 對不對政府出錢嘛一般的加強跟優質的加強分兩種嘛其實說過去高公牛的不可以保嘛現在高公牛的可以保不可以可以保 農民知道嗎"},{"start":13460.683,"end":13469.331,"text":"應該知道 應該知道 應該啦 農糧署 我們剛剛有揣映下去啦很多農委他沒有積極去選擇啦所以這個長農 他不知道說 啊 原來喔 我們如果我們基本型的不是立法會 不用立法會喔我們那一般型的 一般加強的 跟尤其加強的 我們高工也能參加這是不是去年開始的政策對 我們的統計大概也增加了1000多公頃來投資 對"},{"start":13483.963,"end":13490.831,"text":"很好 表示一個政策符合農民的需求加強宣導好不好好就是說你今年開始啊 現在我有在去跟農會問 他們都不知道呢他們都不知道 哇 原來這政府補助一半呢這補助一半比較好 對不對好 來往前 我們來看"},{"start":13499.12,"end":13520.756,"text":"所以呢現在我們來看到了齁這個保費啊是農民要不要投保的一個關鍵對不對所以我們現在要審查的這個第十條是說本來的條文設計原來的農業作物保險原來在2020年的五月嘛六月實施嘛現在實施已經快四年多了嘛對不對所以有在討論說這個費率的問題為什麼當時你們這個費率五年之內的是75%第六年之後降為60%為什麼這樣寫給"},{"start":13527.455,"end":13543.824,"text":"我想當初的立法精神就是說在初期的時候大家對保險不是那麼熟悉所以政府如果必要的時候可以補助多一點但是有五年的時間慢慢大家了解了這些保險的精神以後"},{"start":13544.404,"end":13563.504,"text":"那應該回到保險的基本的就是它是一個風險的對價關係自己投資自己分擔好但是現在有條文說把後面的60%拿掉了只有說5年以內的是多少沒有5年以後的多少如果修法改成說5年以內的75%5年之後的變成85%你覺得這樣合不合理"},{"start":13568.356,"end":13588.891,"text":"我跟農業部的立場基本上是 我跟你講啦 說有的這種限時優惠 時間來越少啦你超過時間來 越慢來越貴啦 大家才要參加嘛 對不對所以你們原來的設計就是前高後低 鼓勵農民趕快來參訪 對不對如果改成了前低後高 我就慢慢來啊 是不是這樣子"},{"start":13590.12,"end":13606.548,"text":"所以你知道了解了沒有所以我們這次第十條的修改呢如果把這個邏輯破壞掉了那就是亂修法啦所以我希望說農業部我們今天沒有主調審查我們今天是巡打大地頭 巡打而已所以說你們這個情形在我們實際上要修改的時候你們要講清楚你前陣子頂75%後陣子頂60%就希望說前陣子五年那幼肥農民館他們參加覆蓋率提高不然他們才不會了解嘛"},{"start":13616.713,"end":13624.395,"text":"那如果說你後面的60%拿掉了 農民說要投錢75%我就投投蛋啊不可能領你90%全部補走啊 會這樣嗎會這樣嗎 所以參與率低 保蛋的範圍趕不上農民的需求還有申訴跟協調其實不足 理賠困難這個都是目前我們農業保險推動的一個問題 是不是這樣所以現在我們要怎麼樣來推進納保作物的品項 有什麼方法"},{"start":13646.838,"end":13656.074,"text":"我覺得第一個我剛才也曾經說過就是我希望農民對一個作物的保險他是一個持續性的他每年都能夠投保"},{"start":13657.231,"end":13681.966,"text":"而不是用投機的方式看到風險高就投風險低就不投那如果持續性的投保我們可以考慮它的保費可以打折用這種方式來做一個優惠設施你要想要促銷跟行銷你的保電要促銷跟行銷所以過去我2018年到2024年5年我問了5次有3個重點第一個要有一個農業金融專屬爭議的協調機構有沒有在研議了"},{"start":13684.998,"end":13701.693,"text":"這個我們有在做還有我們用科技定損的方式遙測的資料庫完善災前災後的對比機制我們現在也在做還有一個就是希望你們定期的跟農民有座談會對於農保的諮詢委員會辦理定期座談會農民意見有沒有在做"},{"start":13702.543,"end":13718.096,"text":"有在做但是我覺得還可以密度還可以再提高所以希望這三點本席有提出來像今天說的這個品項還有修法希望農業部繼續加油好不好好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答"},{"start":13729.72,"end":13734.102,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請農業部陳部長然後漁業署王署長王署長我也好部長辛苦了部長上個月我經濟委員會考察到北高雄我選區的一些漁業的建設大概我想謝謝王署長全程參與"},{"start":13756.509,"end":13782.855,"text":"這部分,每一項工程我都親自去看過都有急迫性跟必要性,對移民的幫助也大所以集中在延安、彌德,加那些家庭保溫是在歐來,這都是養殖醫院專區所以這保溫,大家都很重要先請教一下王署長,您也都有陪我去看過"},{"start":13784.095,"end":13807.538,"text":"每一項你都會提出寶貴的意見漁業署都全力支持那現在說我今天在利用這個質詢的機會在請部長能夠更了解署長很認真很用心每一項的建設工程啊我邀請他他都親身參與而且他都提出專業的意見所以這些高行是不是可以請他補充請農業部全力支持漁業署"},{"start":13808.459,"end":13815.347,"text":"把這個酒巷這個工程依序把它完成我想以農業部長一定會支持"},{"start":13816.468,"end":13844.146,"text":"然後現在就是牽涉到經費看夠不夠我會後面去看這個經費夠的話因為這裡可能有些是分年的嘛如果沒記錯好像署長說應該沒有問題啦對他有的是分年如果分年的話就比較沒問題啦如果同一年的話可能可能經費會不夠啦分年當然是他有他有這個比方說有年限有三年期或者是兩年期所以這個回去我想基本上我們會支持但是極必要的這個優先來做"},{"start":13846.668,"end":13855.935,"text":"LNG海水管線的擴充工程這個這部分尤其3.53.5那個我們有共識我們有討論過這個可以優先處理這個我們會來協助那這個謝謝署長署長請先回那第二個是關於保險這個我們天災救助未來有沒有可能做一些轉變天災救助如果轉型成這個免費的農業保險"},{"start":13878.247,"end":13900.665,"text":"我們也曾經考慮過就是逐步把天然災害救助轉為農業保險那水稻是一個先行的案例那它有一個前提就是原來天然災害可能過去三年過去五年平均的農損的金額要直接轉到那個保險基金來而不是 經費沒有到位的話未來如果理賠的話是沒有經費理賠的"},{"start":13902.103,"end":13916.765,"text":"我們從一個數據來對照我們的農業保險的這個保費的補助這個支出在整體補助的比重大概只有一趴啦這跟美國比較起來是天差地遠所以大家想說我們的農業安全網"},{"start":13918.083,"end":13933.172,"text":"它整個架構你這偏重於產品以及要素的補貼所以這部分反而整個農業保險政策在你們整體的施政裡面還不是相對重要的一個角色你要想面對"},{"start":13934.332,"end":13957.586,"text":"這個氣候變遷跟貿易自由化農業安全往下面的農業保險是非常重要所以要有前瞻性跟有韌性所以這部分是不是可以往這方面去思考吧天然救助的轉型成免費農業保險可行性品 你也先做一個可行性評估對 我們可以先做看哪一些品項可以"},{"start":13958.939,"end":13978.089,"text":"由天然災害的保險轉到農業的保險這個我想我們可以來評估然後比較可行的我們也許可以現在試辦這個部分是不是可以請三個月之內提出一個可行性評估你們初步的規劃一個月三個月三個月可以三個月做出一個比較詳細的評估報告你們以未來的初步規劃繼續再請教部長還有我們署長"},{"start":13987.514,"end":14014.09,"text":"這個如果農保把強勢性的納保把它扣除 事實上我們負保率啊 覆蓋率20.7現在20.7啦 是OK 我們數據沒有更新所以那整體的覆蓋率是五成多啦所以代表說你扣掉強勢性納保比如說水道 那個住宅保險所以只要20點多那部分高風險 譬如說九板椅啦"},{"start":14016.712,"end":14030.397,"text":"平均才2.7而已喔?對,九板魚養殖的年期大概要5、6年如果霸王級的寒流好像2017年的時候造成整個石斑魚是大崩盤所以這個有保險制度你要針對比如說九板魚"},{"start":14039.821,"end":14057.795,"text":"芒果、木瓜、洋楓這個基本上是零頭保或者低頭保但是它是一個高災損只要發生天然氣候變遷或者造成氣候嚴重的傷害他們基本上沒有得到保險的cover"},{"start":14058.706,"end":14077.817,"text":"所以這部分你們有沒有怎麼樣去做調整把這些漁業長期處於低淘寶的狀態把它能夠有效提升我跟委員報告剛才就是扣掉強制性的話只有20.7%其中漁業的部分才2.7%是最直接的"},{"start":14078.377,"end":14101.644,"text":"那我們現在我初步的想法可能還要跟那個漁業署他們去討論喔我覺得比較高產值高風險的如果一旦出現它損失特別高的這個部分可能要另外拉出來去設計一套方法石斑魚就是嘛石斑魚高風險然後它是高度依賴外銷高風險的跟一般風險或者低風險的它的寶貝的設計設計應該是不一樣的啦你現狀來看石斑魚我要幫你報告"},{"start":14107.746,"end":14114.534,"text":"106我們推出已經要幾年了七八年了對不對現在投保面積不到100公頃全台中央是面積2%以下"},{"start":14120.233,"end":14145.175,"text":"那這種狀況你要把那個高風險 石板業高風險然後依賴外銷的這些產業把它納入農保的範圍您認為呢我想我們剛才說的我們在上個月一併評估天然災害一方面可能天然災害轉過來另外一方面就是像我剛才說的把這些用風險值去分高中低然後設計不同的一些保險的這些規範是 好"},{"start":14148.598,"end":14162.155,"text":"按照這個脈絡繼續再請教您你們在這個設計農業保單的時候這個相關的這個你們的政策大概傾向於重視的你保單數量要怎麼成長 理賠的金額累計來評估做一個成效的評估"},{"start":14164.997,"end":14190.683,"text":"但是你要從需求面還有品項公平性來切入才是比較符合農民的期待所以保險制度應該是對小農跟非主力的產業作為有更多的保障但目前現狀是保障非常的薄弱所以你應該從風險程度跟災害頻率以及產業脆弱性的連動做一個補助的設計牡蠣有沒有保險"},{"start":14193.554,"end":14198.288,"text":"現在沒有 最主要是他的保費太高現在以他們保險工程算出來的那個保費太高啦"},{"start":14199.069,"end":14227.729,"text":"我意思說你要有差異化差異化的補助條件不是這個花一條線就是它補助標準都一樣到這個天候所以這個部分不能有固定的補助比例應該用產業的特性這品項的特性來做這個差異性的補助條件的設計以及它災損的頻率評估機制有些農產品它災損頻率很低有些是很高"},{"start":14228.837,"end":14246.403,"text":"因為傷害這個輕重只要一衝擊一來有些傷害很重有些傷害相對沒那麼重所以是不是能夠有差異化的這個補助條件設計我想非常認同委員所提到的差異化的補助包括它的自災的風險還有包括它的一個相關的災損的程度"},{"start":14247.183,"end":14260.542,"text":"那這個部分如果用加權的方式去處理的話應該可以設計出另外一個遊戲規則我覺得我們可以朝這方面來努力謝謝部長我們繼續努力那另外這個國產羊肉國產羊肉一個公山"},{"start":14262.086,"end":14277.261,"text":"宮山市有名就是岡山羊肉,柏柳你吃過嗎?我吃過那目前國產羊肉市占率是5%而已啦,但是它有季節性的消費傾向,高低牛肉肉比較好消,低低就比較不好消現在的這個價格,國產羊這個拍賣行情"},{"start":14286.943,"end":14294.773,"text":"最近跌幅到180所以有時候到170幾跌幅到三成多每次一樣成本是2.3萬 二或兩萬三"},{"start":14298.444,"end":14323.709,"text":"你賣一支賠一支那針對這個部分農業部有沒有什麼相關的補救措施我們現在啟動了一個機制就是先有協助他們做宰殺凍存先做凍存做一個產期的調節啦不然你同時這樣繼續下去價格會越來越低所以有一些東西不一定要上市直接用凍存的方式去調節它上市的量"},{"start":14324.289,"end":14351.732,"text":"那這個部分我們現在已經在做相關的團體跟羊農有做過這個接觸對 已經有跟他們做討論他們知道說政府有在提供對 他們也接受這樣的一個方法他們也覺得這個方法是可以接受的好 最後一個問題我再花這個一分鐘來跟部長請教就是說台日米食的鏈結這個很重要但是需要一個制度性的長期合作的機制的那像日本釋出廚備米"},{"start":14353.257,"end":14368.659,"text":"阿對台灣的這個米出口會不會有這個比較屬於中長期的影響你們評估怎麼樣我們個人就是內部的一個評估齁就是我們其實每年稻米的外銷大概是平均大概3500日本啦3500噸左右那"},{"start":14369.7,"end":14398.153,"text":"今年會比較高有一部分原因是因為他們日本缺米但是我們長期來看我們不能依靠著他缺米才增加我們的銷售所以要建立一個供應鏈要長期的合作協定一定要有一個協議包括有在進行嗎有在進行而且我們像今年我們也邀請了他們很多大商社來這邊希望說能夠能夠定期的去契作或者是直接跟我們這個政策是跟商社去談就好還是要通過農林水產省"},{"start":14399.033,"end":14427.844,"text":"沒有 我們透過商社直接去做長期通路他們政府有沒有 農林水產省有沒有真的總和關稅的品質現在就是商社給我們回報就是他打特定的族群的時候就算關稅外的那個金額他們吸收都還有賺頭他們就願意我們不要是因為只要缺名的時候我們這個數量增加對 就是這樣子常態性的合作 這很重要對 常態性的合作就是要通路鏈接如果需要國會我們可以去拜訪他們的農林水產省"},{"start":14428.484,"end":14450.345,"text":"我們曾經談過啦 但是日本對米的那個額度配額跟我們一樣堅持就不讓步啦但是這個台日友好這個是最近幾年產業合作業交流我想他們對台灣會非常非常比較友善啦我們曾經問過啦 他說稻米不要碰啦"},{"start":14451.946,"end":14479.469,"text":"他說因為他們對稻民 那矢板魚可不可以矢板魚就有機會啦矢板魚再談一下啦矢板魚我們可以談啦矢板魚再努力一下 好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請徐富奎委員做詢答謝主席 有請我們陳部長還有漁業署王署長"},{"start":14480.841,"end":14481.426,"text":"陳部長 王署長"},{"start":14488.411,"end":14515.402,"text":"委員好 部長署長午安我想剛剛聽到我們邱志維委員提到很多的一些的建設我想高屏過去一向是我們這個漁業的重鎮我相信部長跟署長也常常到高屏地區關心我們一些漁業的問題那尤其今年我們看到今年的東港的黑鮪魚一樣這個獵的量也很大的那我們也在6月8號都截止"},{"start":14515.822,"end":14539.312,"text":"那請見我們過去長期對於這個漁業的保育跟我們這個漁民的這個互動上面有做一個很好的一個改善的一個機制那我想我們也期待農業部跟漁業署繼續支持我們的一個漁業的一個發展部長認同絕對認同這個漁業是我們必須要去支持的產業尤其屏東除了這個高屏地區我們一直經常"},{"start":14542.843,"end":14571.426,"text":"很大力的協助了是因為最近部長跟署長也常常到屏東我想我們除了這個遠洋近海的這個捕撈作業之外還有我們的養殖也是養殖也是所以針對這樣的一個軟硬體建設還是要請部長跟署長來大力支持那不過最近我們有聽到我們這個漁業署我們提出了一個遠洋漁船的一個薪資保障的一個制度甚至提出一個公資電廠的一個互助基金署長"},{"start":14572.227,"end":14573.05,"text":"這個制度當時為什麼會有這個構想"},{"start":14577.113,"end":14602.103,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們現在整個遠洋產業在面對國際上的壓力很大一塊就是強迫勞動這一塊那為什麼大家會認定台灣的漁業會有強迫勞動的情形這是最近這兩三年單單發生欠薪的船的個案大概有10件那每一個欠薪的個案大概都欠了12個月到18個月不等"},{"start":14602.623,"end":14615.061,"text":"所以變成在NGO或是美國在認定你台灣整個遠洋產業裡面你這一個雇主經營者你沒有履行到你要付薪水這樣的一個義務所以國際對我們的責難很大"},{"start":14619.126,"end":14644.312,"text":"這個付薪水這件事本來就是我們經營者你應付的一個義務所以我們後來是設計一套就是說未來你如果每個月付薪水的你要跟我散盡這一個通報的義務讓我知道你有每個月付薪水那我們的東港的小吊有一個特色是他一行次回來才付一次薪水問題是一行次回來是八個月"},{"start":14644.912,"end":14667.327,"text":"那等我們發現他欠薪水的時候這八個月欠起來都已經不是那個仲介保證金可以處理所以我們才想說發展出一道漁民自己之間提繳一定額度的互助金那目前我們馬上可以來做處理一艘船先繳五萬總湊了五千萬的一個基金這個版本嗎"},{"start":14668.167,"end":14684.308,"text":"我們現在希望是一年大概兩千萬那大概分三年逐年把這一個互助金的這一個水庫可以達到五千萬的這樣的一個規模蘇長你知道現在這個方案在地方已經造成很大的雜音嗎"},{"start":14685.525,"end":14710.882,"text":"我了解我了解但是其實跟委員報告這個有少數一些漁民有比較大的反彈聲音部長我想我們支持我們要照顧我們的這個漁工的權益但是我想用這樣的一個制度把所有大家一起去承擔風險但是對有的人說有可能就是少數的人他藉由這個機會他就是幫你幫忙不幫你錄影我們怎麼面對這樣的一個機制"},{"start":14718.649,"end":14728.3,"text":"我個人覺得就是你雇船員不管是國內或外籍的你應該付薪水這天經地義的然後你如果有一些"},{"start":14729.554,"end":14751.071,"text":"包括委員長有提到 如果說你的風險很高的話我就會強勢你去做一些護住金的提繳應該是選擇性的做處理那你如果說是正常繳的 你就是提報嘛所以我覺得現在還是在做溝通但是溝通中有不同的意見 我相信我們會收集起來以後然後再做一個調整啦"},{"start":14751.651,"end":14766.694,"text":"對啦,我今天還是要去溝通,要去收集意見啦比較只是你們現在的做法就是我就是不會這樣做,你們都要聽我的所有的反彈都是我們這些民意代表在承受你們都不要聽我的意見我想喔"},{"start":14767.435,"end":14785.065,"text":"我們現在會去溝通其實並不是說我們政策已經訂了然後去宣導這是兩件事情所以在溝通過程中如果有一些不同的意見我想我們待會來會重新去設計這個部分我想我們可以承諾會去做一個檢討好部長署長所以我還是要特別提到說這樣的案子"},{"start":14785.565,"end":14807.292,"text":"我們應該再來審慎來評估來討論一下甚至今年黑鮪魚的一個捕撈的一個制度當然我感謝署長跟部長的支持我們去年檢討完之後今年在運作上面當然已經有順暢很多但是還是有值得去要檢討的地方我再找時間再跟你來討論一下我相信我們一年要做的比一年更好"},{"start":14808.112,"end":14827.971,"text":"那另外剛剛我們邱志永委員有提到的那個建設問題我想我自己本身也帶了署長也看了好幾個地方我想包含我們的周縣長上一次部長來我們口提的疫區記者會的時候周縣長也有特別跟部長拜託那所以針對東港、漁港部長現在檢報啊這個沿流線那邊"},{"start":14829.926,"end":14851.396,"text":"很漂亮的 是一個觀光的景點但是相對現在東港碼頭這邊還是一樣破舊不堪真的要加快來進行東港現在是這麼重要的一個漁業發展的一個基地 那個景觀一定要顧起來部長能不能支持這樣的一個案件我想我們漁業署會跟縣府先做一個整體的規劃第二個部分就是所有的"},{"start":14852.986,"end":14881.524,"text":"經費需要支持我們一定努力來但是還是要有一個我們的總預算的限制所以相對的就是後續提出來的這些規劃我想第一個就是說縣府跟我們這邊要怎麼樣的去有一個更完整的規劃我覺得比較重要而不是一個規劃完了以後一直擴大或是一直追加那樣子的話農業部的經費沒有辦法被這樣子一個使用所以我想我們後續我想漁業組會跟縣府會做一個更完整的規劃"},{"start":14883.049,"end":14906.326,"text":"部長那我想最後一個就是5月27號我們感謝農業部跟漁業署的支持我們仿寮區漁會的漁市場在5月27號已經啟用這個花了5000多萬那製冰場也明年要完工那最後一里路就是這個擴港的一個計畫我想擴港計畫一完成之後包含我們所有仿寮漁港230艘的漁船一年的拍賣量200多噸"},{"start":14908.007,"end":14927.765,"text":"交易的金額有將近六千多萬現有的福利確實是不服使用請部長也要支持這樣一個擴港計畫我相信未來之後仿良也是我們未來在這個屏東的這個屏中跟屏南的發展的很重的一個漁業的一個基地部長願意支持嗎我想仿良漁港的部分我覺得那個金額已經"},{"start":14928.946,"end":14958.035,"text":"沒有辦法用我們的公務預算去支應所以我覺得像類似的未來的漁港的建設我覺得可能我們要重新去檢討然後用提一個比較具體的專案計畫向行政院爭取不然我們就用那個往前推進我們繼續就是往前所以我想用專案的計畫把所有的漁港必須建設的一次看怎麼樣的去向行政院爭取不然以現在那個我們的公務預算其實並不多支持一個漁港就掛掉了"},{"start":14959.296,"end":14969.329,"text":"部長最後一個我想我們今天感謝就是我們支持我們這個養殖的我們的一個海水供應站的系統但是我們現在有發現一個問題因為我們現在海水供應站並沒有串聯"},{"start":14975.077,"end":15004.266,"text":"那最近發生了我們加東溫豐的海水供應站他們在稅休的時候他沒辦法供水給這些養殖戶就變成養殖戶還是必須要用原本舊的管去抽水我覺得這個機制是有問題的我們既然要做供應站之後應該要把這些管路那些世界器官的管線應該把它除掉但是他們對漁民來講他們怎麼樣取得他們的水權的運用的這一塊是不是應該漁業署我們跟縣政府也要來討論一下"},{"start":15005.547,"end":15026.888,"text":"這個備援系統要怎麼做處理好 謝謝委員的建議我覺得委員的建議非常重要就是說兩個不同的海水供應系統之間要有可能的串聯的備援系統才能夠讓它能夠互相支援那這個部分我想我們約署這邊也在積極在做就是兩個部分之間的備援系統怎麼規劃然後未來再跟委員請教看要怎麼樣去做"},{"start":15027.749,"end":15036.215,"text":"在對地方是最適當的 都是獨立的部分能夠做怎麼樣一個對這個這個應該在其實建設的時候就應該規劃進去啦是好這個我們再來我們會來努力來做好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請楊瓊英委員做詢問謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請我們部長陳部長"},{"start":15060.892,"end":15074.977,"text":"我想面對於整個氣候變遷跟極端災害的頻率上升那麼我們努力的也就是農業保險條例這個對我們農民來講是非常的重要因為剛剛所說的這兩項因素"},{"start":15078.218,"end":15092.585,"text":"對於整個農業經營的風險是日益的在升高那所以我們的農業保險制度呢應該是要保障我們農民的所得穩定農業經濟的一個重要的一個政策工具"},{"start":15093.485,"end":15103.629,"text":"但是我們看到目前為止似乎在整個執行的情形不如我們預期那又因為這樣的因素所以我也統計到112年底我們自立性投保的農民僅佔了6.17%漁業、漁產跟農作物的覆蓋率甚至是達到2.13跟2.8那都基於3"},{"start":15117.834,"end":15128.418,"text":"當然在去年度113年我們不斷的在調整方案113年度那是有增加的但是我們仍舊認為在這樣的風險高風險的因子當中我認為我們還有很大的一個成長空間"},{"start":15135.101,"end":15153.447,"text":"那所以今天我們的召委我們也跟著一起來提案也就是怎麼樣在思緒怎麼樣能夠讓我們的農民更加的得到保障又更加的誘因讓他們可以來參加保險有很多的高經濟的產值的我們的農業比如說我們的這個來養這個產值非常的高但是現在高風險它不掉果"},{"start":15165.305,"end":15168.927,"text":"有時候就掉在我們的這個紙包裡頭結果它裡面是因為陰風搖曳而斷掉它到最後沒有辦法得到養分所以到最後到最後也是沒效的這個果實就壞掉了那所以看了這麼大一顆可是它竟然是沒有辦法"},{"start":15191.1,"end":15207.227,"text":"來採收農民的損失非常的大所以我們也提出了也就是我們的農業保險的這個部分在前五年上限75%的協助第六年60%那因應這個整個策略性以及老天爺給我們的一個挑戰"},{"start":15209.108,"end":15212.873,"text":"以前沒有想過的現在都會發生在這樣的情況之下我們非常的希望能夠把誘因能夠把條件更加的放寬因時因類別而定制所以我希望的也就是行政部門不要一下子"},{"start":15227.811,"end":15249.346,"text":"就否決委員的提案 因為我從早上聽到現在我不希望如此 而是希望把這些寶貴的意見來綜合我們所有的條件以因應我們因為氣候變遷 極端災害所受損農民的痛苦跟他的收入 請做說明"},{"start":15250.306,"end":15277.861,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是我絕對沒有否定所有委員的版本這第一個要說明的第二個就是說委員的版本裡面那你就要支持啊沒有沒有對不對因為委員的版本裡面第六年百分之六十把它拿掉以後那就有它的不確定性啦不一定是提高喔也可以是零喔因為沒有寫嘛一到五年有寫那原來的六年以後最上限是六十"},{"start":15278.641,"end":15288.065,"text":"所以要因應實際需求啊所以不受限在60啊你也可以繼續75啊甚至因應特別情況你也可以80啊所以剛剛本期特別說了是因應你的類別跟因應氣候變遷跟極端災害的頻率嘛所以重點是在第二項裡面要求農業部一定要定期的檢討我覺得那個才是重點然後第二個就是說"},{"start":15307.112,"end":15325.949,"text":"那個我們現在就算一到前面五年是75上限因為法律規定是上限嘛那以農業部來講以農業部來講我們實際在過去五年大概是用二分之一為標準也沒有到上限那我們鼓勵跟地方政府合作那地方政府出太多的話"},{"start":15326.209,"end":15350.329,"text":"是因為只有二分之一所以你的誘因沒有也沒有那麼多剛開始大家怕怕的所以也沒有宣討的那麼好那現在逐步有一點成績所以這個議題這樣子我希望你們去好好檢討我們整個農業保險制度要怎麼樣去提升頭髮的意願真正能夠保護我們的農民跟他的經濟收益我相信這個共識點"},{"start":15352.45,"end":15381.488,"text":"部長應該同意吧就是台中市的部分農業部補二分之一台中市政府補四成所以農民只出一成然後用這種方式也不會違背現在的法律規定現在法律規定只是這是因為我們盧市長他對於農業當非常的關心啊可是你不一定每件事都是如此啊今天是你是農業部是中央啊不能拿一個來比喻啊你比喻其他你比不了啊我告訴你好"},{"start":15382.128,"end":15405.029,"text":"所以我跟你說 這最重要 你好好去檢討我們的農業保險制度 要怎麼提升這個投保的意願要怎麼可以確保 我們農民的權利跟有經濟收入以因應 我還是回歸最源頭氣候變遷跟極端的災害頻率 好不好 你去研議好 那第二個 本校要請教 視網"},{"start":15407.296,"end":15435.618,"text":"赤網的部分最近媒體一直在披露宜蘭南方澳的豆腐甲海域它是整個 它是這個三港區但是有一些潛水的教練他們在那裡發覺到了這個問題民眾幫我們發覺政府就要有責任去管控赤網本來就是在2021年的時候我們就已經說了喔赤網實名制 對不對 部長"},{"start":15437.847,"end":15447.332,"text":"2021年我們就說治網要實名制你這個網路面前要有一個準確的編號所以萬一發生你才有線索去瞭解這是誰做的啊對不對那現在這個區塊都是什麼 珊瑚耶這珊瑚這麼寶貴耶你這樣任由他去抓尤其現在又是龍蝦的旺季"},{"start":15464.381,"end":15479,"text":"對不對 那可以嗎那我們政府要怎麼應對 請教我覺得這種行為是絕對不允許的絕對不允許我們也加強了這個實名制的查核但是很可惜很遺憾的就是說現在目前"},{"start":15480.256,"end":15491.345,"text":"包覆在那個三胡椒上面的那個刺網齁他並沒有辦法查到他的實名制可能是更早之前的啊所以你的方法不對嘛你既然你明知道有這個問題政府沒有辦法去應對"},{"start":15495.004,"end":15507.467,"text":"這樣子應付應付都可以這次你要好好去應對你要有方法你查不到那是誰可是誰怎麼放下去你要去找方法啊因為你不能破壞啊整個珊瑚家園這個是我們聽了心都會痛欸怎麼辦"},{"start":15513.311,"end":15530.398,"text":"所以我才會說因為雖然說現在沒辦法查到那個已經覆蓋在珊瑚江的刺網但是後續我們會針對這邊區域跟地方政府還有跟海巡要去強化就是說任何一個刺網你只要出去的話我先檢查你有沒有實名制再說"},{"start":15531.218,"end":15549.396,"text":"管控對不對從源頭管控而去落實行動才能夠保住對不對而且這個次網是出去也要回來喔你不能出去以後回來就不見了所以部長你知道嗎你們比如說去年你的次網你查獲得有幾件啊"},{"start":15550.799,"end":15569.494,"text":"你查獲有幾件你前年查獲的有幾件去年我們總共查了23件那處分的有13件前年幾件前年是17件 處分是11件部長你聽了會不會心痛你有方法要寫越來越多要不要改變方法"},{"start":15570.234,"end":15581.751,"text":"對不對前年跟去年 增加那你要不要改變方法這個是我們行政部門的責任對不對尤其它又是珊瑚區又是商港區不容許"},{"start":15583.052,"end":15609.188,"text":"要注意現在是農家的旺季生產旺季可以抓的旺季要趕快去圍堵好啦要有應對方法好不好最後一個議題你把方案給本席齁最後一個議題齁糧食產業全面升級方案就是你在6月10號你們所推動我也給予鼓勵也就是要讓我們地區農會大家都能夠有契作的制度欸對不起這個這個"},{"start":15612.373,"end":15639,"text":"都能夠要有契作的這個制度你強化整個統一栽培管理安全用藥產銷履歷的驗證跟水稻收入的保險機制這個非常重要來提升我們整個稻米的品質跟穩定農民的收益這也是我們一直一直一直在努力的所以在這邊本期要請教因為我們台灣米有夠讚世界讚我們觀光我們的這個品種"},{"start":15640.86,"end":15663.87,"text":"還有栽培技術跟實惠優勢會加了QQQ 哇 這個是又香 這太棒了所以我們外銷的潛力會很多 怎麼樣能夠有管道可以讓我們的農民 水稻的農民 他們的收益能夠更好到目前為止 你1月份到5月份呢 我給你統計你外銷日本是大概突破7700公噸"},{"start":15665.771,"end":15685.407,"text":"那是因為那是因為比去年同期增加6倍那是因為日本的米在走所以米荒所以我們這個時機做對了所以請教部長既然有這樣子的一個方案那我們針對於稻米在外銷的部分你是不是有針對日本不要因為人家米荒"},{"start":15686.408,"end":15688.711,"text":"我非常認同委員所說的也是我們在做的"},{"start":15705.802,"end":15730.649,"text":"我們不能因為日本缺米然後我們短時間之內供給比較多的米就引以為傲其實我們要消耗日本的米是一個優質的而且是要長期的供應的部分兩個重點第一個重點就是現在各縣市有很多各縣市優質的米那我們會協助它有一個品牌因為我覺得打造日本要用品牌去打第二個就是通路的鏈接啦"},{"start":15731.229,"end":15755.328,"text":"那通路鏈結我們現在也跟很多日本的大商社邀請他們來台灣然後去參訪我們的稻米的產地然後希望說他們能夠用一個比較長期的訂單來支持這個部分才是我們要的對 這個也是政府的責任品牌 通路 穩定 採購 制度非常的重要因為我們台灣米是非常的"},{"start":15756.729,"end":15783.644,"text":"這個棒喔 那我也希望近期可以聽到好的消息 方向是對了因為我們國內米要差不多30多塊那你外銷一定會比較好而且幫我們也等於做一個外交也協助我們的農民這是非常好的一個方向一定要加油有了好的成績請告訴大家可以開一個記者會告訴我們的通路是怎麼樣我們的米是怎麼樣好好的去宣傳 好不好幫助我們的農民 謝謝"},{"start":15786.445,"end":15805.096,"text":"好谢谢现在请陈冠廷委员做询答你好我们请部长陈部长"},{"start":15811.693,"end":15827.148,"text":"來 我也好 部長好部長 我有看這個貴部的書面報告那其中農業保險的覆蓋率到今年的4月底已經達到了53.72%離賠的金額已經超過60億這個我覺得是一個很大的一個進展可是"},{"start":15828.309,"end":15847.862,"text":"這個地方我想要請教部長我們知道超過五成的覆蓋率中它政策性引導的水稻水稻的保險它是佔相當大的比例那也就是說很多種植多元作物的農民那可能還在觀望他想要尋找一個更適合他們的好商品他們經營類型的好商品"},{"start":15848.402,"end":15864.046,"text":"所以我想請教部長 部長你裡面有提到說持續進行開發開發保單來去符合農民的需求這個部分那除了現行的單一品項有沒有可能設置更多樣化經營的這個農民的保險商品"},{"start":15865.359,"end":15893.069,"text":"我跟委員說明就是說我們現在如果扣掉政策性的保險我們的覆蓋率大概20.7那20.7裡面如果看品項的部分的話你會發現說漁產品的部分特別低才2.7而已然後有的作物是非常低所以我們現在會針對這些過往的投保有保單但是投保的件數非常低的我們拉出來重新去檢討到底那張保單為什麼不受歡迎"},{"start":15894.189,"end":15909.475,"text":"這個部分我想我們會檢討然後第二個部分就是新的就是我們也發現說有一些農民需要一些新的保單那這個部分我想我們也會來開發但是開發有一個前提就是他的過往的這些風險有沒有災損的資訊要夠才能夠開發所以我想我們會持續來精進謝謝部長"},{"start":15915.177,"end":15935.749,"text":"那部長我之所以問這個問題是因為我們有很多種植多樣化這個作物的青龍跟我們反映就是說它不是種一個而已啦它是種番茄啦 鳳梨啦 等等這種不同對 綜合的可是現在的保單他們的反應是說只能夠覆蓋到單一作物所以他是希望說可不可以開發更多元的這種保單讓這些青龍有機會能夠來去納保那保障比較不足的也可以提高他們的投保的意願"},{"start":15941.152,"end":15956.888,"text":"那這個部分不知道部長有沒有什麼看法因為有一種保單的方式就是按照他們整個農場的總收入來去未來可以去調節作物的種類來去應對市場的變化你們覺得這可行嗎 部長你怎麼看不過我想中和的農場裡面"},{"start":15958.61,"end":15970.017,"text":"我已經聽過很多農民在跟我講我覺得那個可以設計但是用總收入的概念的時候因為我們現在的農民缺乏收入的依據對沒錯你說稻穗的資料都沒有的時候你就很難去計算"},{"start":15974.619,"end":15998.325,"text":"所以我想我們初步也許會針對同一個地區它種的比例是多少我們有一個機制是可以用中二的方式來處理這樣我們會有利益其實不曉得這個我在質詢你之前我其實就已經在跟媒體部來討論看有什麼樣的更好的方式所以這個不是做不到另外就是說要怎麼設計因為其實像美國日本他們還有歐盟都有這個農場總收入保險的制度所以說"},{"start":15999.565,"end":16016.208,"text":"第一線農民的期盼那也有國際的範例所以我們就可以來想方法是看怎麼樣去設計那剛才其實部長你提到的其實我蠻理解的因為就沒有這個相關的報稅資料你怎麼去做一個統計怎麼去做換算那怎麼樣才可以設計出好的保險嘛但是"},{"start":16017.189,"end":16032.337,"text":"這個是挑戰但不見得不一定啦不一定一定要完全來依賴這一個報稅的資料就是我們過去農損的時候也常常講到一件事就是看你像地區的平均產量啊或者是市場公開拍賣的均價等等的有沒有可能用這些其他種類的公開數據來建立這個計算的模型"},{"start":16036.397,"end":16054.917,"text":"不過我想這個部分我可以請我們的同仁業人專案去研究啦因為中和農場跟個別的產量它本身的比較一定要有個加權去調整所以這個請他們先做評估因為我也沒有說有預設立場說你就用這個平均產量還是用市產公開拍賣就沒有了"},{"start":16055.858,"end":16071.51,"text":"這還是希望農業部 我們可以來請他們來評估對對對 這相關的咱去研究一下怎麼樣才能夠把這個多樣化的這種保單類型來做出來因為現在青農不是只做單一作物嘛那他們有各種不同的看法想法那我覺得是可以試試看的"},{"start":16072.17,"end":16090.583,"text":"那部長我也拜讀了就是關於這個保費輔助裡面的報告裡面我當然理解說在有限的我們還是財政支援不是無限不是我們想怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣那確保說輔助的效益那還要避免我們道德的風險那但是如果與其就像剛才你提到我們在算嘛就哪一個最沒有"},{"start":16091.263,"end":16116.218,"text":"沒有效益的把它剔除掉讓我們的未來的保單更有效益或者是說把這個比起把這個資源輔助分散在數十種的單一保單上我認為把一部分的資源就剛剛講的來試辦一下我們剛才提到的多種類的這個農場走收入的保險我覺得是不是可以更我認為啦可以更優化預算的效益那對未來我們產業升級那是有幫助的"},{"start":16116.778,"end":16131.988,"text":"好 謝謝部長部長真的要研究一下我們地方很多農會都有在想這件事情因為本身補助的上限是一件事情但是如何更精進保單的效率讓農民願意來投保才是比較重要的我們必須要關切的"},{"start":16132.348,"end":16161.433,"text":"這除了單一個別農民講這是很多農民又反映到農會然後農會再跟我們講所以我想這個是可以做的那農會這些有在算他覺得說這個可能會增加投保的意願特別青農現在都回來了再麻煩一下好不好好謝謝好謝謝現在請李彥秀委員做詢答謝謝我可不可以先請金管會的王專委王專委"},{"start":16167.223,"end":16192.404,"text":"我先請問一個小子題就是有關保險法前一陣子已經修法已經三讀完成了但是保單遭扣押後的相關的處置其實現在還是有很多的爭議就是說我們一般人的財產當遭到扣押之後我們債務人就沒有辦法去處分我們的財產譬如說我們的房子遭扣押之後我們就不能再去做房子其他的"},{"start":16193.224,"end":16218.978,"text":"再去用房子來抵押來借款我想這個你非常清楚那當然保單遭到扣押之後這個藥保人當然不能再拿保單再去做借款我想這個是清楚的那但是保單遭到扣押之後其實藥保人不能再去處分保單包括借款節約的行為但是一般我們在投保的時候都會附註說是不是可以自動墊付保險費"},{"start":16220.379,"end":16232.968,"text":"我們在做保險的時候通常會填這個事實所以有時候保單遭扣押的時候我們會發現事實上那個金額因為一般我如果被扣押事實上我不會再持續的去繳保費了那電付保費的性質其實在我看來其實就是借款"},{"start":16239.133,"end":16247.339,"text":"但是如果保險公司就是說繼續的去扣那個店角的保費的時候其實事實上這跟當時的法律是互相違背的我認為當時在保單的有關保單的強制執行法制化之後我們保險局應該盡速的跟保險公司跟法院去釐清就是說我們是不是應該對扣押時存在的這個解約的金額其實要去釐清應該不要 照理說應該不能持續做"},{"start":16269.954,"end":16288.587,"text":"這個帶電那個電付的這個電付自動電付的保險費的這個動作所以我覺得這個部分是不是應該要持續的去做釐清否則的話這跟當時我們當時那個金額就會不一樣如果持續代扣下去的話我們當時的這個法律當時就會有一點衝突你了解我的意思嗎"},{"start":16295.13,"end":16310.314,"text":"是 謝謝委員的這個提問有關這個部分因為是比較我們扣押的解約金的金額跟到最後其實如果不斷的帶電的話那個金額就會不一致我覺得這件事情應該要趕快競速的去釐清是 這個部分我們回去會再做一個研議跟這個問題的釐清 謝謝好 謝謝專委那我是不是請農業部部長"},{"start":16320.826,"end":16320.846,"text":"陳部長"},{"start":16351.067,"end":16362.682,"text":"后续这个经费我们后来有做什么要短中长期的规划原来的斑斑有限来的那个经费当我们停止以后我们就移走了我们经费就移走了"},{"start":16363.697,"end":16384.665,"text":"我知道移走了但是你們當時對外的說法是我們還是要針對於弱農的那個是整個弱農產業的升級的計畫還在還在那你們有說要做短中長期的規劃那到底規劃了什麼我們有一個完整的規劃就是我們在短期之內我們要先把寡產牛的支柱先做一個調控"},{"start":16385.665,"end":16395.368,"text":"讓他的生產效率變高然後去針對本身第二個部分所以短中長期的規劃都已經出來了這7.48億怎麼用都已經有規劃了不是這個7.48億是多少4年20.8億這是另外的經費多少對不起你再說清楚4年20.8億"},{"start":16414.735,"end":16421.276,"text":"20.8億是好都有規劃要怎麼用都有規劃了對我們有四年級的計畫在那邊執行好那我再問一件事情當時在2024到2027我們養牛的產業全面升級我們有個中程的規劃當時我看到你們的計畫書裡面是寫說我們希望農業部希望能夠達到生乳量的減量以利維持價格這個是當時的規劃對不對是"},{"start":16441.48,"end":16460.107,"text":"那現在的規劃的方向還是一樣嗎還是一樣好那我請問一件事情就是說有些弱能業者他們面臨現在台紐的協議零關稅這件事情為了要提升競爭力他們加入一些AI自動化的機器提高每天的產量那"},{"start":16462.848,"end":16479.934,"text":"如果你剛剛跟我講的就是說洛農目前減量還是我們的政策那目前洛農他們又透過AI系統希望增加牛乳量這個是不是互相衝突這個沒有互相衝突喔第一個就是我們把寡產牛就是說它本身"},{"start":16480.954,"end":16504.45,"text":"牛奶的生產效率比較低的我們把它淘汰然後一方面我們針對比較年輕的牛利用AI或其他的設備的改善讓它提升它的乳奶效率但是總體來講我們現在希望是牛奶產量大概48到49萬噸我們希望降到43萬噸才能夠達到一個比較好的平衡達到一定的價格嘛是那我再問部長齁好的價格是不是消費者"},{"start":16509.735,"end":16522.585,"text":"一定會買那也不一定嘛對不對重點是如何提高擺在架上如何讓國人看到國產的品質或包裝或行銷或透過我農業部的輔導我們有足夠的競爭力嘛"},{"start":16526.961,"end":16546.87,"text":"這才是重點嘛所以無論在你剛剛講的20億還是40億短中長期的規劃裡面我希望可以透過你這些預算看到福島落農我們東西本來國產的本來就比外面的好這才是重點嘛除了維持價格之外重點是如何讓我們產品有競爭力嘛"},{"start":16548.181,"end":16550.822,"text":"你同不同意我的說法價格當然很重要但是如何透過我們的輔導包裝行銷或我們提供足夠的資源或設備讓它更有競爭力"},{"start":16566.564,"end":16584.1,"text":"了解所以我剛才說了三難端我們有一定的方法更重要就是在消費端怎麼樣讓產品做市場區隔然後另外包括鮮乳的標章還有產交履歷對啊但是部長我要跟你講我自己是家庭主婦之一我也常常在架上買"},{"start":16585.717,"end":16605.696,"text":"我希望看到更多具體的成效去行銷這都是國產的國產一定比外面好因為國產的農業部做了哪些輔導環境各方面我們做了標章什麼樣的標章所以我們一定比這些好對不起但是我沒有看到所以我非常期待看到你這些預算當中"},{"start":16606.457,"end":16632.218,"text":"有這些具體的成效在輔導我們這些落農好我最後43秒部長我前一陣子我去考察了我們內湖的花卉市場我覺得台灣的花卉是全國全國非常重要也是台灣之光因為我們在國際上我們的花卉是有一定的競爭力那近期我知道我們近期我們都每一年都有撥一些預算在做輔導但是我們面對極端氣候"},{"start":16633.919,"end":16641.384,"text":"我覺得這些運送的過程當中無論從彰化無論從哪裡運送到台北的花卉市場也好或出了台灣到國際其他去參展也好我覺得相關的設備跟冷鏈的系統或面對現在極端氣候我們如何有更好的設備來去輔導他們我覺得是關鍵重要的所以我希望部長去多花更多的心思去關注這一塊"},{"start":16661.078,"end":16665.426,"text":"能力系統是不是要再加強 要做得更好我覺得都應該去做更專業的輔導或協助他們或編列預算去指導他們"},{"start":16671.038,"end":16694.254,"text":"我覺得同意特別是花卉的部分從產地不管是到北部的批發市場或到運銷的部分仍然是一個非常維持它的切花壽命或是盆花壽命的一個關鍵是無論是運送或在花卉市場都是這個部分我們在產地上面產業產地上面都有做適度的協助對我知道所以包括出了市場到國際去參展所以這個要拜託您編列相關的預算去更精進他們相關的設備跟輔導他們好不好"},{"start":16700.558,"end":16725.678,"text":"包括上飞机的那个战存箱是都要协助辅导好不好我非常期待今年也可以看到一些相关的预算的编列谢谢好谢谢现在请林诗明委员做询答林诗明委员林诗明委员不在现在请黄建豪委员做询答黄建豪委员黄建豪委员不在现在请吴秉瑞委员做询答吴秉瑞委员吴秉瑞委员不在现在请麦玉珍委员做询答"},{"start":16736.141,"end":16739.567,"text":"就希望有請農業部的陳部長部長委員好"},{"start":16747.81,"end":16765.875,"text":"部長好 請教一下我們5月份農業部是不是移工新制度上路名額從1萬2千名新增到2萬名 同時開放新的農量列型"},{"start":16766.835,"end":16773.88,"text":"也在就是供請數和合配率的放寬就由此事也是說軟解我們的農我們農業的缺工的問題啦但是問題在說要符合這個資格農民我們農業的團體需要先就是農量署各分署申請拿到資格認定函後呢才能在90天內向勞動部申請"},{"start":16797.015,"end":16799.797,"text":"就是聘用移工可是許多農產業別其實在有季節性的需求所以有一點差異這一來一往的話耗費很多的時間無法就是彌補的這樣子的需求的缺口上次部長質詢的時候說就是我們農業部審核的速度會盡量縮短"},{"start":16820.994,"end":16835.332,"text":"請教一下我們的部長目前就是新智商入後我們審核的案件有多少件還有說目前農業部內部的審核平均天數大約為多少因為我們現在這個我們都沒有看到一個規定"},{"start":16840.959,"end":16864.056,"text":"我跟委員報告第一件事情就是說我們也發現到就是說當我的移工的數量名額增加了然後申請人變多了那申請這邊會不會有塞車的部分那我們也瞭解就是說審查過程包括農業部的審查還包括勞動部的審查這兩個部分那這兩個部分其實我跟勞動部做了一個溝通協調"},{"start":16865.037,"end":16880.22,"text":"他們那邊是應該理論上是7加7天再加一個行政核定大概一個月左右那我們這邊有很多必須要實地查核的那我也要求我們農糧署或是相關的主管單位要盡速而不是"},{"start":16881.62,"end":16899.407,"text":"單子擠在一堆再去爬啦所以可以用個案的方式來就安排時間去查然後還有一個更重要的部分是很多申請者資料不齊全然後還要補件的這個東西過往都是用我們都用被動的我希望說其實應該讓"},{"start":16901.289,"end":16915.43,"text":"有意願申請的人他就一開始就知道他要提供什麼樣子的資料以避免說你為了補卷有沒有來來回回來來回造成太多次的這些往返這個部分都是我們在改進的一個空間"},{"start":16916.593,"end":16922.698,"text":"是所以我們就是因為我們農民有季節性的就是特殊的需求但是我們人力在這樣子的來來往往就會變成浪費很多時間但是剛才我們部長也有說我們要先有意願的輔導我們是有這樣的輔導的人員或者團隊嗎不然大家農民辛苦辛苦人家等著"},{"start":16943.114,"end":16946.516,"text":"到最後呢就是也沒辦法達成他們的需求就是農民需要的時候就沒辦法採收所以我剛才你有說我們也有提到部長在5月19的時候呢有跟說勞動部跨部會的討論但是呢我們現在還是沒有看到這樣討論的結果就是時間"},{"start":16969.768,"end":16977.771,"text":"網路也沒有看到資料也沒有看到所以呢我們希望說要有明確的時間更盡盡就是縮短這樣子的話才能有這樣子的進度還有掌握就是多少審查要涉及的修法是否就是明確的解決時間的問題的辦法這樣的話對我們農民真有幫助"},{"start":16992.735,"end":17015.523,"text":"這個部分希望是真正的明確的這個安才你說有跟他們真的協調但是我們今天沒看到不是我要跟委員報告我們當時間拉長的時候我們必須先釐清哪一個環節是塞車的我們從那個環節去解開那後來我們發現我們跟勞動部溝通了以後我們有跟他們有一些內部的會議我們發現說"},{"start":17017.604,"end":17034.89,"text":"勞動部那邊他也會承諾就是他們盡快在一個月之內審完我們這邊也目標也是一個月之內審完那現在可能要三個月所以要壓縮的時候看哪個環節是可以解開的我們是用這樣的方式而不是說我有一個新的會議決議說我要幾天因為那個決議說要幾天都沒有用實際上要怎麼樣去縮短"},{"start":17040.632,"end":17046.635,"text":"是所以我們就是說縮短的方法我們希望真的是有在就是說剛才你說嘛解決源頭就是要去輔導所以想要的去輔導我也希望說你說輔導誰來輔導因為這個是新的政策宣傳不夠還有說在我們的就是根據我們主計處做普查的時候110年的時候我們的國民我們農民"},{"start":17067.925,"end":17071.949,"text":"年齡已經高達六十七、八十四歲了啊你今天 你用講的 我們聽到了啊但是說沒聽到的人就不會了啦啊但是說 有聽到的 我們年紀 我們的長輩他要去網路要看也看不到了啊 這樣就變成了"},{"start":17088.484,"end":17090.566,"text":"達到這樣子的我們的農業的需求還有說我們的農民就是漁民他們的經營管理者也是年齡也達到就是64歲以上了顯然就是說我們的勞動力已經不足了但是我們要引進這個移工根據我們的監察院報告指出我們農委會"},{"start":17113.823,"end":17133.671,"text":"整體的政策 就是說就是邊做邊修沒有完全的 全盤的 妥善的統計您這邊的資料是在112年的資料嘛對 所以我們看到 因為我們現在網路沒有看到所以114年本身 其實我們針對各類的移工的人數從8000人 12000人 到20000人我們已經想辦法去調整 然後"},{"start":17138.913,"end":17163.595,"text":"歷次的委員特別是經濟委員會的委員都一直希望有特定的這些品項可以打開我們也陸續的檢討也做了一些開放這個開放絕對不是說開了一次就不調整了我們是滾動的檢討所以您剛才說這是一個新的制度對新的制度但是我們沒有看到你改變的地方它不是新的制度它是一個現有的制度不斷的去改進不斷的去精進的方式"},{"start":17165.096,"end":17169.399,"text":"來部長你說新進的部分我們是說這個不好意思就是我們的監察院你說好你說1110年但是我們現在112年6月份你開放的是額度就是1萬2就是"},{"start":17182.389,"end":17188.973,"text":"對 1.2萬人 但是現在在在我們13年 原額就說用完了所以我們的監法院也覺得說你用完我們是增加 但是你都沒有全盤的統計啦到目前為止我們也沒有看到如果你說110年你已經這個是舊的資料新的資料我們也沒有看到啊所以我們才在問你嘛如果我們看到我們就不會問所以我們希望"},{"start":17212.125,"end":17233.55,"text":"什麼樣的資料 你不能說我覺得掙扎 我覺得需要我就掙扎但是你們要全盤的統計真的是寬寬 不然你今天兩三個月你就放寬 等一下又補了不足了兩三個月你又要再放寬 這樣子都沒辦法一定會這樣子 因為農業的一些樣態他不斷的會去調整所以說我不是說這一次的調整我就不動了"},{"start":17241.492,"end":17261.399,"text":"員工2萬人也不一定會夠所以我們到了1萬7、1萬8的時候我們就會再來申請然後我們也會隨時讓各個地方的農民有一個管道知道說哪一些是值得再開放移工的部分那我們都會納入檢討如果需要的話我們就會再增加所以它是一個滾動的精進"},{"start":17262.947,"end":17267.27,"text":"私人你說是滾動為什麼我們監察院這邊就是說很多就是沒有達成到你們真正的去全盤調查所以才會去說希望你們真的是全盤調查如果是需要的時候我們再開放多一點還是怎麼樣但是你沒有的話變成是說你感覺就是需要"},{"start":17285.282,"end":17291.567,"text":"等一下又再開放所以沒有達到說很多人在等待的時候在申請的時候就等待不到又申請不到又在等你再開放這樣的話就是差一截了我們希望說你真正的去調查有資料有需求我們就是開放多一點或者怎麼樣就這樣達到我們農民的需求因為農民是跟我們在反映"},{"start":17311.144,"end":17338.735,"text":"你開放就是你覺得他們可能有申請的你覺得有需要但是還沒有即將申請的人他們不知道幫大家申請的時候哇 你就罵這申請的人就沒了所以我們希望是你真正的去調查全盤的去檢查這樣子現在產業很多的反應就是他希望移工但是他用了以後他又不管理他的居住太多人是這樣子的因為農業本身的這些季節性的部分"},{"start":17339.495,"end":17367.145,"text":"會有造成一些問題但是我們請了一個移工以後我們必須要負責他的管理那這個部分是現在農民比較沒辦法認同他覺得說我要的時候你就叫過來給我所以我們要請農會用一個外展的方式由農會來請然後各個農會轄區裡面的這些需要的用調度的方式來處理那這個就是我們配合農業的特色我們去處理這些季節性的缺工"},{"start":17370.066,"end":17395.537,"text":"好 我說說關鍵 因為時間我憨惜主席 最後一個 因為本來不想講這題 但是因為農業部長就講到我順便就講了雖然 所以在關於外展的部分在11年年底 移工失聯率就達到11.86所以呢 你外展 剛才你說的外展希望他們幫忙管理移工但是關外展的"},{"start":17396.858,"end":17400.639,"text":"逃跑率四連移工那麼多所以呢你的外長的管理還有制度還有所有的這些的話你講出問題但是你沒有解決問題所以我們希望今天的質詢的問題的話就是從農業缺工引進移工的制度不完善"},{"start":17415.485,"end":17420.088,"text":"還有就是非法移工雇用還有每個這些都是環環相扣但是目前我們農業部的制度無法及時補位這樣子的就是變成就是良善的政策但是就反而就是紙上談兵所以你自己都把問題提出來了但是你要解決不能說就是頭痛醫頭就是腳痛醫腳這樣的政策沒有達到"},{"start":17445.765,"end":17453.572,"text":"這樣子的效果所以我們開放但是倒是最後四年又最高所以我希望這些種種的問題希望你有個書面給我因為時間的關係書面給我完整一點讓我們才對農民就幫你協助來怎麼樣去達到這樣子的目標好 謝謝現在請賴市保委員做詢答"},{"start":17470.107,"end":17478.534,"text":"賴世保委員不在賴世保委員不在現在請何新淳委員做詢答何新淳委員何新淳委員不在現在請黃珊珊委員做詢答好謝謝主席我請部長陳部長"},{"start":17493.447,"end":17509.034,"text":"市部長好我想接下來7月9號就是對等關稅90天要到期了那現在應該是幾個密鼓在談判我想問問部長我上次在這邊問的是說你知不知道我們現在談判的進度然後有沒有什麼掌握"},{"start":17510.655,"end":17535.85,"text":"我只能說我們有參與談判的時候的討論那談判現在正在進行中有沒有什麼新的狀況或新的發展會不會像之前談判的過程中我想我不適合對外說明同意但是我要問的是你們都做好衝擊的準備了嗎我想以農業部的立場我們在談判的規劃跟跟討論的協調過程中我們一直堅持的"},{"start":17537.657,"end":17556.507,"text":"針對跟糧食安全有關的這些品項不能放水我們就一定要去捍衛它原來我們所堅持的東西不能放水尤其是食安尤其是對農民的衝擊要交換東西我們都知道但是安全是不可以放水的現在你們編列了180億主要是協助外銷對嗎特別條例"},{"start":17560.749,"end":17573.444,"text":"所以對內假設假如美國對我們要求跟英國一樣有一些美牛啊乙醇啊其他農產品的市場要大肆的開放或降低關稅那國內的市場你們有編預算的嗎"},{"start":17576.027,"end":17598.765,"text":"我們下一次180億是完全協助外銷是嗎不是 我們180億是當初在32%又降到10%的時候那有一部分是我們希望說它能夠持續的進銷外銷嘛但是有一部分可能訂單被中止它可能轉到內銷來所以有可能 我覺得說180億我還是問你一句你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":17601.206,"end":17627.396,"text":"臺灣民眾黨版本是要給你300億我知道但是以現在談判的不確定性來講我們也不期待說亂成這樣 還是希望啦就是說農業的部分是這次關稅裡面最重要的一環我覺得農業部要堅守原來的原則第二個盡量臺灣農民已經很辛苦了不應該再受到拿我們的農業市場去交換國家的其他的東西要換也要換個好價錢"},{"start":17630.057,"end":17646.823,"text":"那今天要講的是農保法農保法的部分2020年訂定以後目前為止有兩好像是雙軌嘛第一個是保險公司做一部分商業保險另外一塊是農漁會的保險農業保險部長你滿意嗎在109年覆蓋率是9.56%現在到114年3月大概是53.83%其實成長的算不錯你覺得現有的覆蓋率你滿意嗎"},{"start":17660.103,"end":17675.229,"text":"我覺得要看覆蓋率要分兩個階段政策型的要拉出來另外看53.7或者是八幾它本身是有涵蓋政策性的保險如果拉掉了以後是20.720.7其實以我們推五年我覺得整體來看20.7是可以達到階段性的目標但是20.7裡面你如果看細項其中餘產的只有2.7"},{"start":17689.375,"end":17715.277,"text":"對啊 這我才問說你滿意哪一塊哪一塊不滿意這個部分我就覺得說有必須有很大的必須要去精進的然後我們看了農業的這些保單裡面我也發現說有一些保單其實保的人數並不多那這個部分我們也把它撈出來看說要怎麼樣精進所以我的目標是我希望提升保單的品質而不是充保單的量"},{"start":17715.677,"end":17730.531,"text":"沒錯 重點是要好的保單啦也就是說我們雖然看起來有很多的商業保險它沒有保一些但是真正跟農民有保障的應該還是我們政府所農運會所保的這些所謂收入型偵測性的強制險"},{"start":17732.313,"end":17754.686,"text":"高粱水稻的基本收入險豬隻乳牛的死亡險但是商業保險針對天災或其他事故的保險顯然沒有辦法讓農民非常安心的去付這個保險費因為可能不一定會被理賠得到現在問題是如果照這樣的狀況我們去保了一個險又賠不到那我就不買了"},{"start":17755.646,"end":17778.362,"text":"現在問題是這裡吧所以設計出一個好的保險才是我覺得農業部或接下去不管是農漁會因為農漁會要他們設計商品我覺得有困難所以部長這部分怎麼解決我想我們後續會針對這些商業型的保單現在禮賠率大概47%所以很多人買了賠不到我就不買了"},{"start":17779.162,"end":17797.084,"text":"正常的理賠率應該是大概80%左右是所以當他理賠率表示他投保之後他的不理賠的機率很高所以我就不買所以我才會說一的會降低保費是或者是在裡面的這些品項裡面我覺得還是回到一個啦就是這個保單它的風險係數而且公司的"},{"start":17800.347,"end":17812.556,"text":"經濟價它的說哪天它的獲利可能性那第三個就是它為什麼會賣出這樣的東西因為賺不到錢我就不賣啊我乾脆弄個很高的門檻但買不到啊那更嚴重的就是"},{"start":17814.177,"end":17838.71,"text":"買到了但是賠不了一大堆另外條款一大堆所以重點還是那個風險的管控你看這樣看到國外的狀況大部分其實很多是由國家或是相關的農業協會他們去針對風險做好評估而且有國家的相關的數據讓保險公司可以設計出一個比較符合現實的保險所以我們現在是有農業金庫嘛"},{"start":17840.851,"end":17862.276,"text":"我們農業金庫只做銀行業務嘛要不要做點農業保險業務農業保險基金來處理是啊所以好的保險才是要設計的可能不能只是單靠商業保險部長同意嗎我同意而且我覺得不管什麼樣的保險我覺得資料庫的這些風險的資料庫的累積才是重點"},{"start":17862.836,"end":17878.493,"text":"因為這樣才能算出比較合時的狀況第二個我們政府有花這麼多的錢在補助那如果農業保險設計的好保費補的再高一點我們都不會反對重點是他要賠得到賠不到就是等於白買"},{"start":17879.728,"end":17899.738,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個部分可能是政府要扛起這個責任不是只是給錢了事我給錢讓你去買保險結果你買了保險還是賠不到要等於白搭我了解所以我已經要求我們的同仁從去年開始我們就每一個保單重新去評估它的沒錯"},{"start":17900.678,"end":17926.47,"text":"全面的重新檢視所以我說在今年年底之前我會全部盤出來如果沒人買的保單就是廢話啦就不用了啦好的保險讓他能夠有獲利然後農民保得到賠得了這個好的保險我們補再多保費我們大家都會支持這個是我的政策我不會衝他的保單的數量我會針對每一個保單是更多人來保保障農民保了錢得到賠"},{"start":17927.631,"end":17933.635,"text":"第二個不會血本無歸我們這才是保險的意義嘛所以馬來西亞對保險就不賠啊不賠啊40幾%而已這樣有點怪啦好嗎最後一個小問題就是我們現在農業保險我們大家都看到了就是"},{"start":17944.221,"end":17965.32,"text":"目前為止它在金融消費爭議目前把上次在農業保險修法的時候已經把它放在金保法的調處的機制但是農業保險還不能進入所謂的金融皮硬中心保護所以這個部分是不是要討論一下一個國家為什麼這麼多制度呢我們是不是找一下金管會上台"},{"start":17969.656,"end":17987.433,"text":"比如說農業保險目前是可以依金融消費者保護法進行調處但是還不到評議中心的評議然後農業信用部發生的金融消費糾紛也不屬於金融評議中心的評議這到底是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":17989.468,"end":18003.645,"text":"是 謝謝有人提問 有關這個部分因為有涉及到這個 目的是主管機關還是農業部這邊 那所以是農業部要去跟你們今晚會說我要加入金融評議中心是這樣嗎"},{"start":18005.591,"end":18025.622,"text":"因為這個 那我們就請部長吧 你是主管機關我的意思就是說 我跟委員說明就是如果有需要的話我們會委託那個做消費平益的部分去做調處 我就剛講農民拿不到保障 拿不到理賠 他要去找誰結果他要自己去告他 這很扯啊"},{"start":18028.263,"end":18048.468,"text":"第二個我剛剛講的現在金管會連融資租賃公司都要納入金保法結果我們真正在做金融消費的比如說農農漁會的信用部比如說農業保險不屬於金融消費者保護這很奇怪啊我給你一個月的時間你們去跟金管會協調如果可以的話農業部應該要把這兩個項目第一個農業保險跟"},{"start":18053.99,"end":18071.879,"text":"農業農漁會的信用部他們發生的金融消費爭議要納入金融消費者評議中心去做處理好我們來溝通看看怎麼樣是否則你們就是話外之明而且農民在裡面反而變成相對弱勢這不公平是好謝謝部長一個月好謝謝"},{"start":18073.046,"end":18079.456,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請羅明財委員做詢答羅明財委員不在我們現在請羅廷輝委員做詢答羅廷輝委員不在"},{"start":18085.373,"end":18109.469,"text":"登记发言委员除不在场外其余经语发言完毕询答结束委员吕玉玲、林诗敏、罗明才、徐新英所提书面执行列入记录刊登公报书面执行和未及答复部分请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会本日议程询答完毕令折期继续审查谢谢大家现在散会"}]}},{"id":"16747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16747","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd622a2f89928e5b660fbe320b46af75468b19dddded0b194f508315f763ac96535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-11T08:30:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T13:41:00+08:00","duration":18647,"影片長度":"05:10:47","委員發言時間":"08:30:13 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報告及詢談完畢二 委員要先享所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報三 委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請行政院公共工程委員會盡速書面答覆四 討論四項個案均另定期繼續審查 商會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1882.671,"end":1911.88,"text":"好 謝謝 現在我們來介紹我們出席的委員我們首先介紹林思明委員另外林業勤委員好 今天我們來介紹今天出席的官員我們交通部政務次長陳彥博次長公共運輸監理師司長林福山司長"},{"start":1914.023,"end":1940.657,"text":"陸珍道安司 我們黃應貴司長華智次處長 喜鴻達處長公路局局長 陳文瑞局長高工局局長 趙新華局長台灣鐵路公司也是我們正次代理董事長吳勝炎董事長"},{"start":1943.384,"end":1971.041,"text":"運輸研究所副所長王孟衡副所長環境部大氣環境師檢任繼政李承陽繼政內政部國土管理署檢任政工程書王熙明總工程師另外我們也是檢任工程書余維靜小姐"},{"start":1978.285,"end":1999.757,"text":"警政署交通組組長陳明柱組長消防署專門委員簡育淳衛福部社會家庭書組長游怡君華務部參事廖江憲"},{"start":2002.952,"end":2013.834,"text":"司法行政訴論廳法官何敬剛何敬剛經濟部標準局檢任記證陳榮滬勞動部勞動師專門委員黃勤雀農業部農民輔導師記證王東亮"},{"start":2031.667,"end":2051.049,"text":"前市部專門委員朱美英國防部檢任視察盧興廷個人資料保護組科長蔡欣怡"},{"start":2053.712,"end":2065.155,"text":"好 以上介紹補充介紹我們廖宣祥委員"},{"start":2069.95,"end":2099.13,"text":"本日會議審查道路交通管理處罰條例的修正草案今天僅進行答詢的程序所以沒有實質審查所以現在請委員說明提案的要職首先請提案人林思明委員提案說明時間三分鐘"},{"start":2099.65,"end":2099.684,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":2107.235,"end":2134.676,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉各位委員還有我們交通部各位官員大家早安本席提案道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第92條之2條文的草案僅提出提案說明汽車駕駛執照說明汽車駕駛人經體檢及考試及格後才予以發證且汽車駕駛人考慮駕照時他的體格以及體能一般都為正常的狀況"},{"start":2135.757,"end":2158.068,"text":"蛋糖因為年紀的增加增長或者因因故患有視覺功能障礙的時候比如說失智症癲癇或其他注意影響汽車駕駛的疾病的時候皆可能在駕駛人上路的時候導致無法預期的意外發生我們從最近媒體的報導多起車禍的事故中我們看到很多高齡的駕駛"},{"start":2159.589,"end":2176.12,"text":"因為駕車時發生注意力不足或駕駛操作不當的情況那也有肇事者肇事後他自稱說因為他癲癇發作所以這些意外都造成不幸的傷亡並讓許多的家庭破碎"},{"start":2177.04,"end":2193.607,"text":"因此本題新增提案道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第92條之二的條文將駕駛人的體格或體能的變化有不符合道路交通安全規則第64條第一項鎖定考領駕駛執照的情形時應依該規則第76條第一項第五款的規定迅速將駕駛執照繳回我們公路監理機關"},{"start":2204.572,"end":2229.059,"text":"應我們為維護汽車駕駛人駕車時自身以及我們其他用路人的安全應重新審查其駕駛執照的資格此外也要明訂公路主管機關得加緊相關機關提供符合視覺功能障礙失智症、癲癇等特定情形者之資料以休先通知其重新辦理駕駛執照的審查資格"},{"start":2231.34,"end":2260.189,"text":"且公務主管機關經查了相關資料後確認汽車駕駛人之體格或體能變化有符合道路交通安全規則第64條第一項所定執行也應該通知駕駛人於規定的期限內重新辦理駕駛執照的資格審查並規範汽車駕駛人藉其為辦理駕駛執照資格的審查者的後續規定處理機制敬請各位委員支持本席的提案"},{"start":2260.729,"end":2279.102,"text":"讓我們行人的用戶安全以及駕駛人的行車規範都能夠有效的提升避免我們意外車禍的發生以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們提案人林思敏的說明現在請林月琴提案人來說明"},{"start":2289.554,"end":2304.45,"text":"好 各位委員還有我們的政府部門那本席針對道路交通安全處罰條例第21條的條文修正草案提出如下的意見跟重點也敬請各位委員們可以支持"},{"start":2305.131,"end":2324.947,"text":"首先我要強調的是今年台灣無照駕駛日趨嚴重根據數據顯示無照駕駛的違規案件五年內成長了22%那每年造成超過700人的死亡跟4萬人的受傷社會成本高達千億元在兒少方面呢"},{"start":2325.507,"end":2328.469,"text":"從數據來看的話2013年到2023年間全國12到17歲的少年其機車的每10萬人口死傷數從472人增加到666人成長了4成這日趨嚴重的趨勢"},{"start":2343.218,"end":2371.927,"text":"不僅體現無照駕駛違規對於道路安全的威脅以及對於兒少能否健全成長事實上自為關鍵更凸顯現行法規跟配套措施的不足我同樣也要提醒的是無照駕駛的累犯人數事實上這個比例事實上是驚人的統計顯示的話近三年的裁罰案件當中有三分之二是重複違規2023年的累犯人數更突破了14萬"},{"start":2374.027,"end":2400.558,"text":"這反映了單純依靠處罰可能難以根治的問題需結合系統性的措施那以下是本席提出的法律的立法的重點主要參考各國的法制以加重無照者違規的成本跟執法的效率為目標分為三大核心第一 違規當下應該立即扣測考量無照駕駛屬於嚴重的危害道路交通安全的違規行為"},{"start":2402.26,"end":2403.405,"text":"那為了避免駕駛者在趁這個風氣在做駕駛"},{"start":2406.505,"end":2433.028,"text":"所以並且提高駕駛者違規使用車輛的門檻所以修正第一項 增訂當場一致保管該汽車的規定第二 強化汽車所有人善盡車輛管理的責任目前車輛所有人允許無照駕駛其汽車的處罰並未能涵蓋到車主本身就是無照駕駛者的情況這樣的情況特別容易發生在已經超過考照"},{"start":2433.709,"end":2438.731,"text":"年齡的違規者為了減少違規使用車輛的來源並加強汽車所有人善盡車輛保管責任參考現行條例第35條酒後駕車吊扣牌照的一個規定修正第6項增訂無照駕駛者吊扣汽車牌照的處罰第三加強同乘者的連帶責任"},{"start":2455.118,"end":2479.325,"text":"透過同乘者的連帶處罰可適時增加無照駕駛的他律的一個機制要求乘客共同負起防制無照駕駛行為的責任參考現行條例的第35條酒駕同車乘車的規定增訂第8項規定無照駕駛同車處罰的規定所以反請我們的在場的委員能夠支持以上謝謝"},{"start":2480.66,"end":2506.009,"text":"好謝謝我們林業勤提案人的說明那現在我們來確定議事錄來在座請各位委員有沒有什麼意見議事錄好沒有的話我們的議事錄先讀完畢我們就議事錄確定好接下來我們請廖先祥提案人來說明"},{"start":2518.066,"end":2538.307,"text":"好 謝謝主席那本次道交條例我個人有三個條文有提出草案那第一個是我們的噪音車的問題過去大家對於噪音車的詬病是非常的大那影響我們民眾生活的安寧那因此過去大概兩三年時間交通部配合環境部"},{"start":2538.827,"end":2556.836,"text":"有推出了這個排氣管的一個認證的一個制度那所有上路的一個機車排氣管都必須要有認證那如果沒有認證的話會有相關的一個罰則但是這相關的一個罰則或取締只有限定在移動中的交通工具才能夠取締也就是說我們員警在巡邏的過程中"},{"start":2559.737,"end":2573.75,"text":"看到有機車發出比較大的噪音他才可以主動去取締那相對起來他是一個比較危險的一個取締的行為那包括也沒有辦法大規模的去做一些相關的一個查處所以說這次的修法建議包括我們只要是停放在公有道路公有範圍的一個路權範圍內的一些機車他只要沒有他的排氣管沒有經過認證的話"},{"start":2586.701,"end":2609.852,"text":"那我們遠景一樣都有這個取締的一個權利這一點是我們的照應車的規範的調整那第二點是我們高速公路的內側車道我們現在其實高速公路局一直有在高速公路做一些宣導內側車道是超車道 請勿佔用但是我們的高速公路的內側車道 超車道它的限速並沒有比其他的車道的限速來得高請問"},{"start":2611.738,"end":2629.004,"text":"要怎麼超車這是一個很俗的一個問題那因此我個人提出了一個1.2倍以內就是限速1.2倍以內超車道不予處罰的一個條文的規定那當然我提出的是一個方向我提出的建立方案不一定是最好的但是"},{"start":2629.944,"end":2647.9,"text":"修法的一個目的是希望把內車車道它是一個超車道的一個精神能夠實際的落實在道路上面那因此這個提出了相關的修法的一個這個草案那第三個是進行機車的一個明文的一個公告"},{"start":2649.136,"end":2665.873,"text":"過去以來許多的地方政府都拿大陸交通安全規則第99條第一項的一個規定來訂定進行規則的一個公告或者是一些標示等等但是我們交通部也有明確的函文給許多的地方政府第99條第一項的規定並不是拿來作為進行機車的一個"},{"start":2671.819,"end":2698.072,"text":"依據 地方政府不能夠拿這條來進行移車那一切還是以道路的線性現場的一個規範 安全性來做一個來做一個這個考量 為主要的依規但實務上 長期以來地方政府對於進行集合這件事情都有矯枉過正的一個情況因此 在這條法例它其實有一點是基本法的一個概念在矯枉過正的情況下 在我們希望"},{"start":2699.012,"end":2725.713,"text":"這個推動汽機車平權的情況下我們希望地方政府對於所有進行機車都要有一個明確序名的一個理由來保持它的一個正當性那也避免我們的地方政府一切把責任都推給我們的交通部讓我們的汽機車的一個環境在道路上能夠更加的安全 以上 謝謝好 謝謝廖先祥提案人的說明現在請牛西庭提案委員來說明"},{"start":2732.572,"end":2753.847,"text":"謝謝主席今天我們針對道路交通管理處罰條例第16條增訂16條之一以及第56條修正案提出提案說明第一個有關第16條及第16條之一的部分基本上是針對噪音車的部分我們現行取締噪音車的方式是由環檢警監理機關不定期於路旁或者是適當地點執行噪音檢驗"},{"start":2754.688,"end":2771.921,"text":"或者是以固定或非固定設置方式用科技執法的方式來做處理都要有專業的儀器技術跟人員來進行檢測但當然噪音檢測有時候受限於周遭的環境影響無法成功取締所以環境部推出了所謂的改裝排氣管認證制度從源頭的角度來處理這樣子"},{"start":2774.443,"end":2790.738,"text":"檢視排氣管是否有認證編號及外觀不符的狀況只要有不符合可以立刻取締對比需要專業儀器的噪音檢測如果查獲衛醫法辦理排氣管變更登記者就可以進行取締這樣的方法比較簡單有望遏止更多排氣管的亂象但現在問題是這樣子喔"},{"start":2794.361,"end":2813.318,"text":"未符合規定改裝排氣管的法環在盜交管理處罰條例裡面的規定是比噪音管制法裡面的規定來的低那也就是說這法律上這個標準不齊一的狀況那麼考量改裝排氣管而且未依規定申報登記者如果他沒有辦法盡速的改善重新的驗車的話"},{"start":2815.139,"end":2827.31,"text":"會有防害交通安全跟公眾安寧的風險所以我們在16條以及增訂16條之一提高相關的罰環並且要求車主要自行付費並且在限期之內來參加驗車這樣才有辦法讓這個排氣管的"},{"start":2831.814,"end":2860.649,"text":"這個改裝認證制度能夠有效並且順利的來執行另外有關56條的部分這個我們是針對並排停車的部分針對罰則來做調整這個考量並排停車車種時段路段方式樣態未盡相同但現在的狀況是定額罰款2400塊有沒有讓行政機關就個案對於交通影響程度斟酌這個空間是有限的裁量權限是有限的因此我們本來的提案是希望把它做"},{"start":2861.109,"end":2884.335,"text":"放寬變成有最低到最高的一個罰環空間給予行政機關針對並排停車個案情形為不同處罰我們本來希望是1800到3600但是最近發生了幾個有嚴重危害行人安全的相關案例讓我們重新思考這個下限恐怕也要相對往上提升因此本席也會在後續審查之後提出修正動議目前的想法應該是2400"},{"start":2886.596,"end":2904.241,"text":"最低4800最高我們可以試並排停車的不同樣態與以不同程度的罰則希望可以遏制並排停車的亂象有效保護交通動線的順暢以及行人的安全以上兩個提案敬請大院各位委員同仁一起來支持感謝"},{"start":2906.616,"end":2915.944,"text":"好謝謝我們劉希廷委員提案人的說明現在請游浩委員提案說明"},{"start":2925.334,"end":2946.939,"text":"謝謝大會主席那本期在今天也提出了道路交通管理條例處管理處罰條例第21條修正那主要是因為數據顯示近5年來我國的無照駕駛涉入交通事故案件每年超過4萬件平均約7萬人死傷而且成長幅度的話高達22%有明顯惡化的趨勢那顯現現行的法規對無照駕駛的處罰"},{"start":2951.34,"end":2980.019,"text":"他缺乏了嚇阻的效果那違規者還他的違法成本過低所以說他的這個無感與其危險性跟違法性所以本席提出道路交通管理條例九點處罰條例21條對於無照駕駛的處罰標準變低對於反覆違規者無累犯加重條款對出借車輛供無照駕駛者使用之處罰亦顯寬鬆造成法治上防治力薄弱的漏洞還予以檢討強化"},{"start":2981.901,"end":2997.499,"text":"那修法的希望能夠達到的具體目標一是希望能夠提高違法的成本強化法治威嚇的效果還調高罰還起點以及最高金額來防止違規者施罰還為可承受的代價"},{"start":2998.36,"end":3008.271,"text":"二 設置累犯加重條款對於兩年內重複造駕駛者加重處罰並得一致保管其所駕車輛來遏止慣性違法三 針對協助行為刻以責任"},{"start":3013.217,"end":3032.532,"text":"分涉車主或實際支配人出借車輛供無照駕駛之連帶罰則來強化源頭的管理加重重大事故行政責任認定無照駕駛造成重傷或死亡事故者除依法附刑者外行政法同步加重以來凸顯其社會的危險性"},{"start":3035.014,"end":3058.463,"text":"那本席認為無照駕駛絕非單一的交通違規事件而是長期侵蝕我國交通秩序造成重大社會傷害的結構性問題我有透過明確而有效的法律規範來建立用路人的基本安全底線為此提出本修正條文草案希望各位同志能夠支持通過還社會一個安全有序負責的交通環境謝謝"},{"start":3060.901,"end":3068.258,"text":"好謝謝我們提案人游浩委員的說明現在請提案委員盧廷維委員說明"},{"start":3085.848,"end":3112.737,"text":"好 謝謝主席今日本日提案說明那鑑於近年來無照駕駛發生的交通事故頻傳所以不僅危險到我們公共的安全對於自身生命安全呢也是非常非常極大的威脅而無照駕駛造成的死傷人數已經不亞於酒駕顯見現行的法律規定已經有不足以有效嚇止"},{"start":3114.045,"end":3132.41,"text":"無照駕駛的行為為防範無照駕駛的現象我特你去這一次的交通管理條例處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案本草案的重點有二無照最高罰到三萬六且當場一致保管車輛"},{"start":3135.051,"end":3151.009,"text":"加重汽車所有人的連帶責任汽車所有人允許無照駕駛及機車小型車環理及特據要這個特高我們要提高這個罰環特高在這個提高在這個三萬六"},{"start":3153.131,"end":3176.785,"text":"並按累積次數加重處罰吊扣牌照期間最長至一年那剛剛也有其他的委員有提到有關於並排停車希望能夠將下限提高我覺得這部分本席也是非常非常的認同那也在這一次的討論當中我們也希望所有的委員能夠一起支持那我在地方也"},{"start":3177.665,"end":3201.582,"text":"非常非常多的一些市民朋友跟我們在反映這一次雖然我們的排氣管有納入一些規範管制但是呢真正的噪音改裝車並沒有真正的賀值沒有根絕所以在這個部分上也希望在這一次的討論當中能夠充分的討論在想一些更好的方法能夠有效的來賀值以上"},{"start":3203.732,"end":3222.05,"text":"好謝謝我們羅廷維提案說明好現在我們請繼續請機關代表報告現在請交通部陳彥博次長報告希望時間在五分鐘以內"},{"start":3230.758,"end":3236.103,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 今天要列席貴委員會就委員會審查"},{"start":3254.801,"end":3274.877,"text":"張鴻路委員、游浩委員、蔡其昌委員、林俊炫委員、陳素月委員、林德福委員、台灣民眾黨團還有王世堅委員等擬拒道路交通管理處罰條例總共42案的修正草案提出本部的建議處理的意見供各委員來參考"},{"start":3277.359,"end":3287.745,"text":"有關委員提案將民眾檢舉的項目納入單獨留置6歲以下或需看護之兒童於車內及在道路交通標誌前臨時停車遮蔽標誌或提高排氣管的違規改裝的罰款額度"},{"start":3297.851,"end":3315.86,"text":"增訂改裝噪音車則令增加辦理定期檢驗的次數刪除強行闖越收費站或衝撞收費人員或一般道路排除散落物得收取費用提高酒駕的罰則明定強制抽血程序"},{"start":3317.181,"end":3329.434,"text":"緊急救援車輛排除停讓行人的罰則提高一般的車輛行人不必讓緊急救援車輛的罰範"},{"start":3331.696,"end":3352.352,"text":"然後提高並排停車的罰範然後修正救濟管轄的法院然後禁止考領駕照期間不得持外國駕駛執照 換過我國駕駛執照然後提高擅自改裝電動輔助自行車及微型電動二輪車的罰則修正勤促寵物等用詞提高行人闖入鐵路平交道的罰範"},{"start":3353.232,"end":3375.878,"text":"金額等那本部呢尊重貴委員會綜合審查的一個結果那另外有關委員提案提高未造車牌啦取消攜帶行車執照非原廠這個排氣管的一個認證高速公路內側車道超過1.2倍不予處罰或是這個隔熱紙的透光率納管行車行駛車道除序名理由公告不得行"},{"start":3376.498,"end":3397.998,"text":"限制機車行駛或道路交通安全規則每年至少召開一次會議等的一個建議本部基於有些是涉租管機關的權責有些是在道路交通安全規則或法規命令或行政函式都已經或是實務作法上都已經可以達到委員建議的一個效果所以我們建議不以增訂"},{"start":3398.698,"end":3420.457,"text":"那另外因應近期無道駕駛照造成死傷事件本部呢已在邀集相關單位討論研擬加重罰則包括一汽機車分別加重罰環累計期間延長至十年 卻罰環無上限那當場一致保管車輛及扣腳牌照那車主也要連帶重罰"},{"start":3421.798,"end":3448.519,"text":"那肇事致人重傷或死亡、吊銷、駕照終生不得考慮呢那預計我們在今年的6月底前會報請行政院所以有關委員相關的一個條文我們建議後續討論的時候可以並同來並同行政院的一個提出來條文來並同討論以上我就先摘要的說明本部提出的一個重點的報告"},{"start":3449.079,"end":3456.46,"text":"那接下來呢我就麻煩請供應司林市長向各位委員詳細來做一個說明那再次感謝各位委員的關心跟指教 謝謝"},{"start":3465.135,"end":3489.202,"text":"主席委員 各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會祕救相關委員及黨團總共處罰條例42案的一個修正提案提出這個處理件意見供委員來參裁以下我大概簡要對各個委員相關提出的一個重點及處理件進行這個報告首先有關於習委員僑薪第七條之一"},{"start":3489.702,"end":3496.206,"text":"這個留置六歲以下或看護的兒童還有這個標誌前停車遮蔽標誌的部分那有關於這個六歲或需要特別看護的兒童單獨留置於車內是有這個高度的風險應該要立即來做一個這個處置那如果有發現應該立即這個報警來由警察來這個及時來介入這個查處那另外有關於在這個標誌前臨時停車遮蔽號幣的這個遮蔽號誌的部分因為遮蔽號誌的這個有是它的構成要件"},{"start":3519.159,"end":3539.975,"text":"那檢舉人所附的這個證據容易因為遠近方向拍攝地點及角度實務上可能會難以這個認定但是原則上交通部尊重這個委員會審查的一個這個結果那有關於邱委員政經提案這個修正第12條有關於偽編造車牌滑軟的部分那這個部分的話因為在5月9號大院已經刪讀這個通過12條的修正條文"},{"start":3542.617,"end":3563.428,"text":"那這個交通部跟內政部檢視署已經課正在準備施行這個的一個作業那有關於委員提高提案提高滑軟下限的部分在上次這個交委會還有大院審查的時候已經有充分討論所以建議本條無需再做這一個修正那有關於五位委員配議提這個提案14條取消隨車攜帶行車執照的部分"},{"start":3567.99,"end":3588.58,"text":"那現行這個這個隨身攜帶這個行照已經沒有罰則的一個這個規定那但是我們認為說這個如果說刪除這項規定的話可能會讓民眾誤解這個開車都不用隨身攜帶這個這個行照所以我們是建議說維持現行條文那有關於廖委員心想提案"},{"start":3589.46,"end":3609.703,"text":"第16條有關於這個排氣管這個認證跟處罰規定的部分那為從源頭解決機車改裝排氣管產生噪音的問題那交通部也配合這個環境部這個推斷排氣管這個噪音源頭管制認證的一個制度我們也在這個去年1月份就修正大案規則"},{"start":3610.484,"end":3630.539,"text":"那將這個變更會員刑事機車排氣管納為應辦理變更登記的一個這個項目而且必須要使用環境部這個認證的一個這個排氣管那如果說經攔查或這個民眾檢舉有噪音超標的這個部分那有關於未依規定辦理變更的部分可以依照這個處罰條例第16條規定來做處罰"},{"start":3633.081,"end":3642.104,"text":"那有關於噪音超過標準的部分那由環保局依照這個噪音管制法第24條的規定來做一個處罰那這個部分的話交通部會這個持續配合環境部相關的一個這個政策來滾動檢討有關於大溫過程的這個規定所以這個部分建議維持現行條文"},{"start":3651.667,"end":3677.448,"text":"那有關於劉委員洗庭建議也是16條跟16條之一有關於這個就是說排氣管這個未辦理變更登記相關滑緩還有這個臨時檢驗這個受檢者負擔費用的一個部分那嚴委員可能有關於也是16條跟43條有關於增加這個定期檢驗次數這個部分那原則上有關於提高滑緩的部分"},{"start":3677.928,"end":3703.05,"text":"交通部尊重委員會審查的一個這個結果那另外有關於這個就是說違規者這個負擔臨時檢驗的費用這個部分因為像這種的臨時檢驗是屬於責令改善原來就是屬於違規處罰在這個受法院裡面的這個一環那我們是建議無需這個增訂那有關於原委員提案就是增加辦理定期檢驗次數這個部分"},{"start":3703.47,"end":3719.058,"text":"因為定期檢驗還是有它的週期我們是建議這個因為條文裡面本來就有責任改善臨時檢驗的一個機制更能達到這個即使強制改正的一個目的那建議這個部分並與其他相關委員的提案來做綜合的這個審查那有關於"},{"start":3722.18,"end":3739.038,"text":"這個邱委員林委員等諸多委員提案有關於無照駕駛這一塊包括21條21條之一第67條第85條之三的部分那這部分剛剛這個次長已經有報告有報告那這個交通部已經會同這個內政部保護部有在召開過這個會議"},{"start":3740.6,"end":3758.811,"text":"那整個修正這個條文那剛剛委員提到有提到包括雷犯防範的機制那這個切分汽機車駕駛人按照不同的行為來提高保安的部分都已經有討論那這個部分建議這個就是可以並行政院的一個這個條文這個來審查那這個尊重委員會審查的一個結果那有關於這個嚴委員提到這個17條刪除這個強行闖越售賣站的部分"},{"start":3768.576,"end":3796.305,"text":"因為先行都已經實施電子收費已經沒有人工這個收費站這個部分尊重委員會審查的一個結果那李委員得福這個提案修正30條有關於這個散落物這個清除費用由這個駕駛人負擔這個部分那這個部分這個尊重這個委員會審查的一個結果那有關於廖委員先強提案修正條例第33條這個高快速公路內車的車道為超車道那如果說以這個超過這個"},{"start":3797.745,"end":3821.997,"text":"還超過速限來行使這個1.2倍不予處罰這個部分那這個部分交通部是認為車輛超過速限就有安全的一個風險那另外在現行違反道路交通管理事件統一裁判基準及處理細則第12條已經有這個超過最高速限位於10公里且未發生事故就有這個得失與圈倒免於取發的一個規定所以這個部分的修正提案建議維持現行的一個規定"},{"start":3822.597,"end":3840.494,"text":"那有關於這個林有文德吾等提案35條35條之二67條有關於這個酒駕這個加重處罰的這個部分那最近幾年來已經這個持續這個配合這個房子的需要有這個修法加重酒駕相關的一個罰則"},{"start":3841.215,"end":3856.988,"text":"那最近一次是在112年6月30號修正這個施行那以近年9家案件及傷亡已有逐漸下降的趨勢那有關於這次委員提案在修正的部分交通部這個尊重委員會審查的一個這個結果"},{"start":3858.109,"end":3881.802,"text":"那有關蔡委員期章及民眾黨團提案有關於三十五條就是呃釋憲這個呃一號判決有關於強制抽血程序這個部分那委員及黨團提案的內容跟方向跟這個交通部韓報行政院的這個版本內容方向一樣那這個部分這個尊重委員會審查的一個這個結果那有關於嚴委員誇橫提案修正四十條增進"},{"start":3883.523,"end":3898.209,"text":"增訂緊急救援車輛排除停讓行人罰者這個部分救護車開啟警示登記警員去執行這個緊急任務行進行人從業道本來就具有優先通行權那這個部分這個尊重委員會討論審查的一個結果那有關"},{"start":3902.531,"end":3915.169,"text":"這個言委員寬容及林委員竣現提案修正第45條提高一般車輛不避讓這個這個緊急車輛的一個滑軟這個部分那交通部這個尊重委員會最後審查的一個這個結果那有關於"},{"start":3917.952,"end":3934.805,"text":"這個就是 呃 林委員跟林委員提案56條提高運營牌停車法案額度這個部分我們也尊重委員會審查的這個結果那有關蔡委員即將提案修正65條及87條修正救濟管道這個管轄行政法院的這個部分 建表贊同"},{"start":3935.325,"end":3959.379,"text":"那這個部分 這個尊重委員會審查的一個結果那有關於這個民眾黨團提案修正67條有關於這個終身不得考慮駕駛執照及相關駕照吊扣吊銷期間持外國這個護衛國駕照使用的一個限制這個部分那這個部分 交通部在去年已經有明確這一個函示那這個民眾"},{"start":3960.779,"end":3982.015,"text":"這個吊扣吊銷期間是不得在持護衛國相關的這個護衛駕照來做使用那即使這個就是說吊銷期滿之後也必須要按我國的規定重新考慮駕駛執照不得這個用護衛國的這個駕照來做一個這個使用那有關於黨團提案這個就是說67條之一這個在一定"},{"start":3983.315,"end":4002.12,"text":"這個終身不得考慮駕駛執照在一定的條件之下可以在這一個這個申請考驗那排除有關於這個35條9駕駛執照除以終身不得考慮駕駛執照這個部分那這部分這個尊重委員會審查的一個結果那有關於劉委員之強提案修正"},{"start":4003.14,"end":4029.177,"text":"第72條這個就是有關於電動輔助自行車及危險電動二輪車改裝的這個處啊這個部分這個尊重委員會審查的一個結果那黨團有關於民眾黨團提案修正第78條增訂行人不避讓緊急救援車輛罰則及這個修正第84條有關於這個動物名稱這個部分那這個這兩條的一個修正提案那原則上尊重這個委員會審查的結果那"},{"start":4032.379,"end":4050.576,"text":"有關如委員明者提案修正80條提高這個行人闖入鐵路平交道處罰這個額度限行2000次提高到4800這個部分那這個部分我們這個支持那尊重委員會審查的結果那有關於鄰居間委員提案修正第92條增訂有關於這個隔熱紙相關這個透光濾納管規定這個部分"},{"start":4055.02,"end":4080.611,"text":"那這個部分公務局預計在6月底之前會公布隔熱紙連貼使用的一個指引那後續納管的部分只要在道路交通安全規則來規定相關標準與定期檢驗來做這個監管就可以所以建議無需在條例裡面去做一個增訂那有關廖委員先想也在提案修正條例第92條就是增訂"},{"start":4083.212,"end":4110.795,"text":"相關主管機關如果車道有限制機車使用就必須要續名理由上網公告這個部分這個部分我們交通部的建議是道路限制包括機車或其他大型車小型車在車道上面的使用是這個涉及道路主管機關這個相關行車管理及安全的專業評估那另外一個部分如果說要續名理由上網公告因為這個路段車道相當的一個多"},{"start":4111.495,"end":4136.692,"text":"能需要向地方政府確認實務的這個可行性所以這個部分我們建議這個不予這個增訂那有關這個民眾黨團這個增訂92條增訂有關於這個排氣管認證這些相關過程的這個部分那這個部分的話交通部是現行我們配合環境部已經在大陸交通安全規則這個法規命令就可以處理所以建議無需在這個條例92條裡面來做一個增訂"},{"start":4139.674,"end":4158.305,"text":"那有關於這個王世堅委員提案這個道安規則的修訂必須要這個邀請這個相關的團體專家學者來討論而且每年必須要召開這個一次修正會議這個部分因為道安規則牽涉到很多面向的一個規定那這個部分只要有道安規則的修正會議我們都會依照這個課題會邀請相關這個相關的如果是行使規定或是這個駕駛的部分就會這個邀請這些團體"},{"start":4167.911,"end":4182.689,"text":"相關的安全團體那如果是車輛的部分就會邀請車輛公衛還有相關改裝團體來做一個討論所以這個部分的話應該是無需在這個條例裡面去做一個規定那有關於蔡委員集倉還有林委員思敏提案這個修正這個九十二條"},{"start":4183.61,"end":4206.242,"text":"至二有關於這個接接相關機關資料的這個部分那這個部分的話政府已經函報行政院那相關委員提案的內容跟方向跟院版跟我們提報這個行政院是相同那這個部分這個建議可變行政院版來做審查那尊重委員會這邊審查的結果那綜上這個說明那以上的一個這個建議處理意見請敬請各位委員參考以上謝謝"},{"start":4207.591,"end":4228.767,"text":"好謝謝我們交通部那因為法務部今天也列席司法院也列席個人資料委員會也列席因為都有提書面資料敬請各位參考書面資料其以機關所送的書面資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":4230.08,"end":4236.965,"text":"那現在我們還是在請林德虎提案說明時間在三分鐘"},{"start":4245.233,"end":4264.823,"text":"謝謝主席我想本席針對就是這個林德武等17人有建議這個貨物物品散落一般道路若不及時的排除容易造成交通堵塞與二次事故那強制排除散落"},{"start":4266.444,"end":4291.426,"text":"這個物品依現行的法令適用於高速公路及快速公路這個為了讓公權力能夠儘早介入處理及及早排除一般道路的塞車狀況保障用路人的行車安全乃提這個道路交通管理條例第30條條文草案這個就是載運貨物"},{"start":4293.147,"end":4302.701,"text":"這個物品散落於車道沒有辦法及時清除時散落物可由道路啊這個該管機關啦主管的機關協助這個來"},{"start":4305.968,"end":4325.084,"text":"這個排除但是會用由汽車駕駛人或汽車這個所有人來負擔是我有當提請公決那另外還有一個就是這個本院林德福還有廖偉祥、謝龍介等16人有建議酒駕林榮仁"},{"start":4326.005,"end":4345.732,"text":"是全民的共識自從立法院要求設立酒駕累換姓名公布專區後終於讓外界知道酒駕累換真的是層出不窮甚至一而再再而三酒後無照駕駛因此各界呼籲針對酒駕累換"},{"start":4348.453,"end":4363.49,"text":"沒入其車輛以避免最終造成無法挽回的遺憾經交通部統計十年內第三次酒駕累患據測累患而且駕照無效之人"},{"start":4365.455,"end":4382.248,"text":"人數合計有19649人所以說本行來提出這個道路交通管理條例這個第35條條文修正草案針對酒駕累犯10年內第三次酒駕而且無照上路"},{"start":4383.169,"end":4405.227,"text":"要把車子沒路未來本案要是經立法院審議獲得共識就是要用避利的手段本席也支持更嚴厲來處罰視我有當進行公決 以上謝謝好 謝謝林德胡提案委員的說明現在我們進行詢問先告以下事項"},{"start":4407.477,"end":4421.656,"text":"1 尋答時間出席委員6分鐘 出席委員6分鐘 列席委員4分鐘 列席委員4分鐘 委員花言登記於10點半截止"},{"start":4424.62,"end":4443.828,"text":"各委員如果有臨時提案請以10點鐘以前提出以便議事人員會診那暫定10點半休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行主席謝謝麻煩請陳彥博次長"},{"start":4454.834,"end":4483.274,"text":"陳市長好 市長市長過去本席一直強調交通是專業用人為材您也是老交通人所以只要是專業理性的討論我想我們大家都可以用專業來說服專業那請教現在大家國人關注的大眾運輸的部分台鐵跟高鐵哪一個需要專業的人才來做經營管理"},{"start":4485.613,"end":4507.731,"text":"我跟委員做說明所有的交通事業的處理呢都一定是要有一定的這個因為他不管是董事長也好或是總經理也好都要專業吧都要有一定的能力這個問題沒有那麼難回答吧不是 他都一定要具有一定的能力來帶領整個公司繼續向前我想這是一定的"},{"start":4508.231,"end":4534.705,"text":"所以台鐵之前我們講是說因為他現在是代理董事長那現在已經要補了鄭光源董事長來接任他是一月今年一月才去接任高鐵董事長嘛是的 對不對那鄭董事長我想過去大家也都對於他在大眾運輸也好或是說相關交通專業上來講的話認為是說他是可以為台鐵來做後續的安全維護管理他應該是一個合適的人選"},{"start":4536.335,"end":4553.949,"text":"我想鄭董事長在他的專業有沒有問題不管在以往在航空領域或者是在高鐵領域他都會表現有一定的一個專業性非常亮眼嘛 是不是那一樣那鄭董事長跟現在傳出即將接任高鐵的董事長使者哪一個比較專業"},{"start":4555.519,"end":4573.824,"text":"我想跟委員報告所有的一個用人每一個人都有他的一個能力來處理他所帶領的一個公司我想所以在這裡用這樣來比較恐怕不是如果說你這樣講的話就沒有相關領域的專業囉一定的一個到了一定程度的領導者"},{"start":4576.625,"end":4599.313,"text":"使者要去接任高鐵董事長是誰的決定這個我就可以跟委員做一個說明所有國營事業它都有一定的用人的制度跟一個程序就是有用人制度跟程序所以我們想了解說是誰拍板的委員剛剛特別提到的這個相關的一個程序正在進行中還沒有定案等這個程序完備了以後會來對外說明這兩天我想"},{"start":4602.074,"end":4623.131,"text":"名人不說暗話啦媒體大家都已經報導了就是史哲介董事長了嘛有可能改變嗎我想那個程旭宇還在進行那是誰拍板定案政院人士那我想請教說今天是交通部您是次長我本來想要問部長部長沒來我只能問次長但我想請教一下交通管的是所有這些部門嗎"},{"start":4624.315,"end":4640.888,"text":"那總是不可能你們不知道高鐵那麼重要的位置董事長結果是一個空降的政委一個過去在文化部文化領域文化領域的部分他表現怎麼樣見仁見智但至少他有在文化領域耕耘"},{"start":4642.062,"end":4657.38,"text":"可是現在是完全沒有任何交通背景的部分要來接高鐵董事長您一個老交通人可以接受嗎交通的專業有那麼容易的被取代然後可以讓外界隨便一個空降的人就來空降嗎"},{"start":4658.568,"end":4684.331,"text":"我要跟委員做說明的就是所有交通業務的一個推動其實是靠所有這個交通人大家共同努力所以只要在這個團隊裡面的人大概都是我們所稱的交通人那他都一定會發揮他的一個作用和他的一個能力把這每個人直施其職把這樣事情做好所以現在你是要用你過去幾十年的背景來認可一個"},{"start":4685.952,"end":4707.783,"text":"過去從來沒有在交通領域的人 然後來到高鐵因為他關大學問大 因為他黨政無敵所以來接了董事長之後 他就變交通人了是這樣嗎我想再一次的跟委員說明就是有沒有看到我們媒體的報導這是今天媒體的報導不懂交通專業 營運專業 憑什麼當上高鐵董做"},{"start":4710.97,"end":4732.262,"text":"有前民進黨政府時代的交通部長也講說說清楚用人的原因是現在搭過高鐵就可以當高鐵董事長是不是是全台灣只要有搭過高鐵的人只要有做過服務的做過經濟艙做過自由坐的就可以來當高鐵董事長他憑什麼我想跟委員報告"},{"start":4741.109,"end":4758.847,"text":"交通的一個專業上或交通的一個治理上其實是要靠大家共同來努力的所以剛才委員特別提到說有搭過什麼就一定可以我想這個是跟用人是不可以劃分的所以今天大家只要努力我也不用學習什麼專業我只要努力"},{"start":4759.855,"end":4779.557,"text":"我不用有相關的背景我要跟委員報告說一個交通團隊的一個代理我這樣其實是覺得蠻遺憾的我們今天是交通委員會我們討論的都是我一直強調在交通委員會裡面沒有媒體是好事情為什麼就代表沒有出事"},{"start":4780.933,"end":4808.831,"text":"大眾運輸也不能有任何的出事因為出了事情都不是你我任何人可以承擔得起的但今天那麼噁心把一個董事長專業外行領導內行政治效忠步步高升結果現在空降來了沒有一個交通部的人敢講一句不對欸還要幫他洗地我們今天問的問題我覺得我很公允的問今天他有什麼交通專業指出來"},{"start":4811.121,"end":4829.497,"text":"他今天他有什麼長才是我們兩千三百五十萬人有交通博士 交通碩士每一個那麼優質的交通部的人才都沒有辦法接高鐵董事長只有一個外行過去沒有在交通領域服務的人他可以這樣空降來"},{"start":4830.678,"end":4856.577,"text":"我想跟委員報告 額後的部長是高鐵或台鐵其實他是董事長 他其實是在做公司治理所以他只要具有能力把公司治理做得很好其實都是很棒的交通人市長是 政委負責督導部會對不對政委依他的權責是的好 現在督導交通部的是誰 是哪一位政委"},{"start":4859.678,"end":4871.771,"text":"有各個不同的領域有不同就是不同的業務有不同的政委現在督導交通部是哪一個政委如果是工程的有曾經的政委如果是觀光的是史哲政委是"},{"start":4873.004,"end":4898.038,"text":"觀光是使者政委 使者政委下面負責部會是包括文化部 教育部 課委會跟故宮啊它也包含觀光的業務在裡面所以今天現在高鐵你認為高鐵是觀光比交通專業重要就對了呃 我再一次來 非常好市長你這樣子真的是讓本席非常的遺憾啊國人都看在眼裡啦既然你要講專業 你要講董事會現在講是說還沒有通過董事會確定對不對"},{"start":4902.2,"end":4925.099,"text":"相關的一個行政的程序還沒有走完那我們就來看一下高鐵網站上面董事會怎麼會辦高鐵的董事會它有相關的公司治理來來來高鐵的網站這是我今天在高鐵網站上面特別找到的董事會治理辦法其中建立本公司董事人才資料庫適時提送董事會審議"},{"start":4926.42,"end":4931.954,"text":"我想請教一下史喆什麼時候有被納入高鐵公司董事人才資料庫"},{"start":4934.872,"end":4957.262,"text":"我想我要進一步去了解因為是牽涉到高鐵公司的公司治理的部分在這裡我恐怕無法讓我們國人了解一下什麼時候史喆這個名字出現在高鐵董事人才資料庫裡面並且適時提送董事會審議不要告訴我們是這兩天喔"},{"start":4958.442,"end":4986.698,"text":"我想如果說前面有董事人選辦法因為這個是董事要互相選出董事你看本公司董事長的選任大股東推薦前要有遴選管理考核要點來指引全面評估檢視確認董事長人選的資格跟相關經驗並且符合公司營運所需能擔任重責遵守用人為財適才是所謂董事長接班規劃之最高原則"},{"start":4988.09,"end":4998.516,"text":"這是你高鐵網站上面清清楚楚白紙黑字寫的有零選管理考核要點指引全面評估檢視確認董事長人選的資格跟相關經驗"},{"start":5002.808,"end":5018.966,"text":"剛剛討論了半天 使者相關經驗是零啊你用一句說只要努力能夠加入就是交通人來幫他脫罪那就代表說他過去沒有任何相關經驗負責公司營運並且擔任重責 用人為財 私財事所"},{"start":5020.56,"end":5040.525,"text":"有嗎首先我跟委員回憶兩個我剛才特別提到就是說所有每一個事任這個公司董事長的都有他其專業不是當然他也一定要努力那另外一個這裡有特別提到高鐵公司的遴選相關的一個規定牽涉到高鐵公司治理"},{"start":5040.905,"end":5056.685,"text":"那我也相信高鐵公司一定是依循著這樣的一個他們的一個程序在遴選相關他們的董事而且也會經過高鐵公司的董事會來處理市長看一下本公司108年10月16號還訂立了永續發展跟提名委員會"},{"start":5058.186,"end":5084.857,"text":"那也請您回去找一下相關資料告訴國人啊所謂高鐵公司的永續發展接提名委員會啊過去歷屆開會以來有沒有曾經出現過史喆的名字啊有沒有出現過史喆的名字好不好今天讓國人看到說他是一個其實之前就有被討論還是說真的是高層清點只要黨政無敵"},{"start":5086.263,"end":5115.587,"text":"有黨政有關係就沒關係沒關係的話大家就慢慢等即便工作了幾十年的交通人今天次長用一句話說你只要加入就是交通人了我也不知道說這樣子的講法以後大家能不能接受會不會打擊為了一個高官升官為了一個有黨政的人升官然後打擊了所有交通部所有交通人的一個信心我工作了十年二十年三十年念了交通博士交通順士運輸所沒有用"},{"start":5116.991,"end":5136.528,"text":"你只要你今天加入就可以當作交通人這個就是現在民進黨政府展現的態度跟讓國人看到的一個狀況我今天對任何人都沒有喜好我今天對任何人我對事不對人今天這個人拿的是其他黨的黨政如果沒有交通專業我一樣批評"},{"start":5138.154,"end":5151.246,"text":"因為這是很離譜的事情國家高鐵是那麼重要現在大家每天坐有多少人在運輸的高鐵結果治理的公司的董事長居然可以這樣子空降這是國家是女人家欸國家是民進黨欸非常離譜跟荒謬"},{"start":5163.707,"end":5189.184,"text":"我想最後還是要跟委員報告就是說所有的相關這個高鐵董事的董事長的一個產生最後還是要尊重高鐵董事會的一個決定還有相關的一個程序現在要推給高鐵董事會就對了沒有 相關的一個程序還是要完成高鐵董事會九名董事有七名是官派的然後現在行政院傳出政院人士講說清點就是使者來當高鐵董事長"},{"start":5193.368,"end":5205.001,"text":"這就是民進黨政府給國人看到的交通專業謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝洪孟愷委員的執行現在請李坤澤委員執行"},{"start":5213.769,"end":5217.192,"text":"謝謝趙偉 請一下陳次長陳次長我特別提醒一下針對問題來回答不然的話這樣時間會拖得很長"},{"start":5229.501,"end":5250.782,"text":"市長好我們今天要討論的主要是針對入口的交通事故它其實我們看相關的數據它是很嚴重的一個道安的一個危險的熱區我們交通部今年1至3月我們有針對入口的事故造成的死亡人數是達到310人"},{"start":5253.164,"end":5279.709,"text":"行人的入口事故受傷人數達到2390人高齡者的入口事故受傷的人數更是高達11320人我們也針對相關的行人穿越道這些入口也推動相關的這種行人穿越道的安全庇護島但是涉難安全庇護島之外我們看看近期"},{"start":5280.989,"end":5305.655,"text":"設置這些庇護島之後有一些重大事故的整理你也看到相關的數據這還是新聞媒體有報導的我們做一個簡單的整理為什麼入口發生這麼多重大的這些事故造成傷亡這麼嚴重那我們在設置安全庇護島之後又發生這麼多的智障的一個事件來市長簡單說明一下"},{"start":5309.069,"end":5324.646,"text":"我想跟委員報告這些的一個案例裡頭當然除了設置上會有一些需要在相關工程的上應該要再檢討之外我想整體的用路人的一個使用可能要一起考驗"},{"start":5325.526,"end":5350.766,"text":"我認為必須要更具體的第一個我認為應該參考成效良好的這些交通安全的改善設計我們要建立這種改善範本來建議來做一個採用那例如庇護島的設計的這些範本我們也要考慮是可以建立高度或者是應該要有反光的設計或是要有防撞的設計等等"},{"start":5353.222,"end":5377.2,"text":"來 市長簡單說明一下我想跟委員說明一下有關委員建議的這樣要有一個推動範本是很好的一個建議那在現行本部的交通工程規範或內政部的市區道路的相關規範裡頭都已經有明確的規定了要求設置像反觀導標 標誌的危險的標記或路障道路線等等的"},{"start":5377.6,"end":5397.207,"text":"那當然這些呢因為已經有相關的規範那相關縣市上使用上或許還不是很了解那這部分呢我們會來建議相關的一個指引當然施工最主要是各地縣市政府那交通部有這個責任製作相關的指引跟規範讓各地縣市政府回來做參考"},{"start":5398.547,"end":5416.192,"text":"另外一個就是要加強教育宣導我們要避免這些駕駛的不良習慣所造成的這些嚴重的車禍我們要建立良好的駕駛文化那部分的駕駛他們有一些不好的駕駛習慣例如違規的這種轉向或進行的壓線甚至是未依規定減速等等這些嚴重的問題長久的這種錯誤的駕駛觀念跟行為那"},{"start":5428.016,"end":5450.251,"text":"我們對於這種安全的設施的識別宣傳啊必須要加強來說明一下是我想委員剛才特別提到就是駕駛人在行進這個入口的時候啊盡量有大家俗稱的所謂切西瓜的一個現象啊那那這種情形呢所以我們現在在很多的庇護島我們都會搭配入口的呃行車呃導引線所以呢而後我們會大概會加強的宣導呃這個駕駛朋友到了這個除了要加強宣導之外我們這種"},{"start":5458.076,"end":5465.044,"text":"安全庇護導致臨時的識別的裝置跟指揮的人力這個部分也要加強宣導跟訓練我們針對改善完成的這些路口必須要加強識別性的這種"},{"start":5473.613,"end":5495.879,"text":"或者是臨時性的這種引導的措施這個必須要去做處理例如說改善完成入口擺設三角錐等等這樣的一個處理另外我們跟警政署跟地方政府也要加強合作就是說針對這些駕駛因為他的駕駛習慣不良所造成的這些事故我們必須針對這些熱區"},{"start":5498.14,"end":5508.967,"text":"要加派這種臨時性的這樣的一個指揮的人力加強宣導跟勸導這個部分讓民眾能夠去了解相關路況改變的這種狀況"},{"start":5511.863,"end":5539.375,"text":"市長說明一下是那委員這個建議呢我想尤其是在很多設施剛做好了或者是有時候相關的一個設施也會有在那邊做相關的交通工程所以有關人力的一個指揮或是三角錐的放置甚至照明等等的我想我們大概都會配套來做好因為我們推動交通安全不是說光靠罰單或是光靠一個相關的"},{"start":5540.535,"end":5564.918,"text":"工程的一個改善就能夠提升交通安全這個次長也很清楚我們必須針對啊交通的改善工程針對教育宣導還有執法管理所謂的三一的這三個方面去具體的跟中央地方縣市政府要統一合作那這樣的一個才能做全面性的來提升相關的交通安全這個部分次長在跟你時間說明"},{"start":5566.039,"end":5583.141,"text":"我想委員剛才特別提到不管有關工程教育執法監理等的面向也就是在這裡頭特別提到的希望提升國人的交通安全的文化這部分其實是交通部近幾年來一直持續在努力的而且我們也透過道路的交通安全"},{"start":5585.121,"end":5605.076,"text":"州或績等等的方式來宣導那這部分我們大概會結合地方跟各縣市政府大家共同來議市長我要最後時間我們來質詢更重要更嚴肅的一個議題都是一樣重要的交通安全的議題那交通部統計無照駕駛的人次在2024年達到28萬人次"},{"start":5609.099,"end":5619.464,"text":"2022年的時候有31萬人次都是很嚴重那2024年無照駕駛的因素我們分為兩類第一個他就是沒有領駕駛執照這樣的有達到177974人次佔比62%那吊銷"},{"start":5628.729,"end":5631.534,"text":"吊住銷駕照的這種駕車也有101723人次這個占比達到35.63那無照駕駛的累犯件數跟人數在5年內"},{"start":5643.579,"end":5646.66,"text":"2023年累犯件數是21萬6622件那累犯人數也高達14萬5318人這很嚴重市長我們交通部針對無照駕駛現在有什麼具體的一個規範"},{"start":5659.865,"end":5684.753,"text":"我想謝謝委員特別的一個提醒對這個的提醒無照駕駛確實是最近我們看到有它的嚴重性所以我們大概分幾塊第一塊是大家比較關切的就是說相關的一個處罰所以今天也有很多委員大概都提出所以我們在這個相關的處罰裡頭大原則上是比照酒駕原則上我們會針對無照駕駛 汽車 機車來分別予以處罰然後另外"},{"start":5690.095,"end":5713.044,"text":"提高罰則當然是一個提升安全的一個重要防範的手段但是我有幾個具體的建議第一個我們要建立對於吊扣吊銷駕照者的這種追蹤的機制要提起他們要重新考照第二個我們目前好像只有針對未成年無照駕駛進行講習是不是"},{"start":5716.693,"end":5742.95,"text":"成年的部分除了開罰之外是不是也要進行講習來說明一下應該也有一起的只是未成年的時候他的肩負人要一起參加講習相關的這些規範那必須要更具體的去提升這樣防範無照駕駛的不管他是未成年或者是他被調註銷的這些駕照的這些累犯"},{"start":5743.79,"end":5760.148,"text":"非常嚴重每天大概有10萬或是10萬以上的這種無照駕駛人在街上這樣亂竄這是非常嚴肅的議題必須更具體的防範以上是好謝謝委員的指教我們會來努力好謝謝李昆哲委員的執行現在請黃國昌總召執行"},{"start":5776.294,"end":5796.769,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請次長好 陳次長委員好次長好最近國人非常關心的事情是不是只要有黨政就可以當高鐵董事長"},{"start":5798.237,"end":5808.084,"text":"史喆先生他所引發的爭議我相信今天各大媒體市長都有看到我只問一個簡單的問題史喆是有什麼交通專業"},{"start":5811.026,"end":5832.684,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關這個高鐵或台鐵的一個用人相關的一個程序目前正在進行中那進行中 奇怪中央社說行政院已經核定了所以中央社放假新聞嗎他有 他只是他有相關的一個程序程序還沒有我先一步一步來那個市長市長請你針對問題回答好嗎是的"},{"start":5839.028,"end":5853.281,"text":"第一個行政院核定沒有相關的一個程序還在進行中所以中央社講的不對嘛那不對啊那你們交通部看到中央社的新聞就要趕快發聲明搞澄清啊說程序還有進行啊行政院沒有核定啊"},{"start":5854.42,"end":5881.038,"text":"程序都還在進行啊我想跟委員報告因為他有報核的程序還有核定退文的程序等等的所以程序完成沒有完成沒有所以現在程序完成沒有我們了解今天裡頭應該可以完成所以就是確定要完成嗎相關的程序還在進行中沒關係啦如果媒體報導有錯誤的話有的時候未必是故意要寫假新聞嘛"},{"start":5881.838,"end":5898.159,"text":"因為有的時候行政院的人是不負責任的對外面匿名放話所以已經核定了你如果說是其他媒體也就算了我看的是中央社的新聞啊中央社說行政院已經核定了啊那今天次長在這邊澄清說行政院還沒有核定非常的好啊"},{"start":5898.779,"end":5921.846,"text":"如果還沒有核定的話我要跟委員報告的是相關的一個程序還在進行這個話你講三次了嘛所以我就問你最關鍵的問題嘛行政院核定了沒有行政院核定了沒有行政院核定了沒有請問市長行政院核定了沒有目前的程序還在進行中所以行政院核定了沒有"},{"start":5922.925,"end":5944.696,"text":"這個程序還在進行所以還在進行 沒有核定嘛 對嗎這個程序還在進行OK好 沒關係啊 程序還在進行 那我們就等著看嘛等著看我們的民進黨政府怎麼做決定嘛高鐵的公會說什麼對專業經理人的侮辱啊連民進黨的立委自己都講 這當然是仇庸啊"},{"start":5946.164,"end":5964.458,"text":"社會上面反彈這麼大如果民進黨政府的心態是只要有黨政只要派系對只要後台硬我就是要讓他高鐵董事長台灣人民要怎麼樣基本上展現出來的傲慢心態就是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":5966.496,"end":5993.391,"text":"好啦沒關係進入我今天要問的主題發生很多交通事故駕駛人當然會有駕駛人訓練整套的問題道路設計也是大家關心的我最近接到陳情說陽梅休息站設計不良三年十三起車禍七死二十三傷因為我接到這個檢舉了以後我一定會去查證"},{"start":5994.625,"end":6011.42,"text":"那我看了三年十三起車禍七十二十三傷這個比例非常非常高這等於是在整個高速公路休息站裡面造成死傷人數的道路設計這個是最高的有八件自撞分隔島那我們繼續往下看"},{"start":6013.322,"end":6041.073,"text":"那我不看抽象的統計數據啊我看具體的案子2015年1月發生四死車禍那時候開始有人質疑道路設計有問題高工局說路口路線設計及交通設施均符合規範這是高工局當初的說明嘛結果你們說明完了以後3月再度發生擦撞分得倒的車禍那個時候啊非常關心台灣道路設計"},{"start":6043.052,"end":6056.774,"text":"的一些民間人士就出來罵他說我們高工局原來改善的方式就是立牌子家裡有地雷政府不幫你拆還立了牌子說有地雷危險"},{"start":6059.465,"end":6087.461,"text":"我忠實的把人家對我們交通部的批評把他轉入上來然後他也說這個事實上就是有問題哪有開一開突然出現突起的分隔島壓迫車道的啦國道警察也說有問題了就是不敢寧願立牌子來針對陽梅休息站這個被長期批評的道路設計高工局有沒有打算要進一步改善"},{"start":6089.009,"end":6109.02,"text":"跟委員報告在我們目前來講檢視的部分是一切符合規範但是我們在做強化設施的部分我們有在增加做什麼強化設施包括我們整個一個標線的部分從那個減速標線開始我們是唯一做好了沒有有做好了什麼時候做的"},{"start":6110.601,"end":6132.595,"text":"有些是今年年初做有些是去年就十一月已經做完了去年有做今年年初有做結果三月四死車禍一月四死車禍三月再度發生車禍你覺得做的有成效嗎以這些來看的話我目前看到就是說我們一直在強調說進戶戶區不管是這個戶區或者其他戶區其他戶區也有撞這個情形也發生"},{"start":6133.175,"end":6160.647,"text":"有像陽梅這麼頻繁的嗎根委報告 陽梅他現在講說三年多已經超過一千萬輛車次了那經過那個地方 大概都是你們還是覺得沒有問題我們認為是說輔助駕駛的部分是會有相當的一個影響來 我們來看一下水泥分隔島前應該施做碰撞防護測試這是高速公路交通工程手冊上面講的我講的沒有錯嗎"},{"start":6161.967,"end":6186.887,"text":"來 我們來看一下發生事故的分隔島 這個水泥分隔島左手邊的這個照片 局長應該很熟嘛那我們的防撞測試就在上面加幾個桶子喔對 這個是規範所以這個就符合你們的分隔島前 應該是做碰撞防護措施就是加這幾個桶子喔然後加這幾個桶子以後 實際上面是什麼一樣撞到後面啊"},{"start":6188.185,"end":6214.07,"text":"報告委員如果是他在正常的速度在符合速限的規範之下速度的問題齁我等一下馬上帶你們看再往下看來我們來看一下其他地方的分隔島護欄末端的處理漸變式碰撞防護設施這是左手邊的圖啊然後國一北上264公里處碰撞防護設施實際的案子長得像這個樣子"},{"start":6215.899,"end":6241.776,"text":"不管是採用哪一種設計形式啊沒有一種設計形式是像楊梅這麼喊的前面放幾個桶子就算了報告委員我們是依照整個一個道路條件去做啦包括日本也是這樣的處理是所以你覺得這樣子是OK的沒有關係嘛你今天在這邊我其實是善意提醒你們啦有這樣的批評啊放這幾個桶子我看了我也是覺得很喊的啦"},{"start":6242.555,"end":6271.098,"text":"這個叫做道路防撞測試然後我看其他的例子就不是這樣子設計的嘛你們當初的設計圖是這樣設計的嗎是 你們當初的施工設計圖是這樣設計的嗎是嗎是嗎來來來這個是你們一開始的時候我把原始標案陽梅休息站興建工程標案它的設計圖說我把它調出來看了你們看到紅色圈圈那個地方"},{"start":6272.335,"end":6282.808,"text":"你們看到紅色圈圈那個地方紅色圈圈那個地方就一直發生車禍的啦然後你們前面放幾個桶子啊然後他們後面的設計圖應該要做成這個樣子漸進式的你們後來有去check這個圖說跟實際的設施是一樣的嗎"},{"start":6288.732,"end":6316.491,"text":"各位報告我們現在目前來講我們要做的是要保護後方的停車場請你針對問題回答嘛因為你又跟我講說符合規範那我就很擔心啊如果這樣都符合規範的話那我們那個規範是不是形同句文第二個你跟我說有按照圖說那我去調了圖出來嘛我調了圖出來跟你們現場的狀況就不一樣啊這個就是漸進式的啊那你們前面是什麼前面就"},{"start":6317.549,"end":6324.08,"text":"水泥突然高 前面放幾個桶子那這個跟設計圖說不一樣啊還是我理解有錯誤"},{"start":6327.125,"end":6350.116,"text":"我們要花一個時間去因為現在是在立法院的委員會的會議室所以我只能調圖說給你看還是我們要辦一次會館到現場去看我這樣講好了啦同樣一個地方一而再再而三出了這麼多死傷車禍我們拿實際的圖說來跟委員再做一個報告所以這不是實際的圖說"},{"start":6351.904,"end":6376.489,"text":"根本報告我們現在來講就是說所有的斜面的部分混凝土紐澤西護欄的部分我們現在是改直立的啦剛剛委員看到那個有斜下來就是說前面那個那個藍布的那個路段它是鋼板護欄的部分它是有放下來沒有關係啦每個地方都是條件的限制我再跟你們講一次啦你們要在這邊堅持到時候就大家來檢驗了"},{"start":6379.171,"end":6404.042,"text":"從去年開始講一而再再而三的發生今年一月也發生三月也發生今天你如果在國會還是這樣子堅持的話從我們監督的角度啦我言則已經盡了啦後來出了事情看誰要負責然後最後你剛剛有提到速率的問題嘛來我們看一下半徑27米的閘道設計速率的時數是多少"},{"start":6410.261,"end":6434.09,"text":"報委員那個地方齁我們這個數率50是前段的部分後段的部分進服務區他就是應該是減數就是30的在哪裡這個是我現場拍的圖啊這我現場拍的照片啊這個是在前面對啊那你30在哪裡你30在哪裡30的部分是在彎進去之後那個地方對啊啊你彎進去以後你看得到喔你彎進去以後你看得到喔"},{"start":6440.434,"end":6463.256,"text":"那個次長你看一下照片好不好你有看到一個五十尺嗎你有沒有看到一個三十尺你說彎進去以後就看得到等到彎進去我就撞到了根本沒辦法 他在前面的部分是還符合的進去的部分我們會再做一個處理你們如果還是用"},{"start":6464.571,"end":6475.009,"text":"本來守舊故不自封的心態這個就為什麼解釋了同樣一個路段一而再再而三發生事故有很多在倡議台灣"},{"start":6477.915,"end":6502.637,"text":"有關於道路設計、標線設計、號誌設計跟國外相比落後非常多的朋友都已經大聲疾呼了都已經大聲疾呼了今天我是因為接到了檢舉我下去了解人家檢舉的都有道理這不是單一事件你如果說單一事件你自己喝太多水"},{"start":6503.877,"end":6523.272,"text":"超速去攏到那個是駕駛人百分之百的責任但一而再再而三的這樣子發生我希望啦高工局你們要聽得下去外界給你們好的建議該改的地方要改是 我們會來再做一個評估OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌總召的執行"},{"start":6530.893,"end":6548.406,"text":"特別跟大會來做報告也就是稍等一下習富奎委員執行完畢我們要處理臨時提案我們要處理臨時提案所以特別跟大家報告一下現在請陳樹葉委員執行"},{"start":6560.277,"end":6562.249,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳次長好 來 陳次長"},{"start":6570.414,"end":6592.659,"text":"市長早安 今天委員會就是針對道路交通管理處罰條例的修正草案進行詢問目前因為最近發生很多的交通事故主要就是高齡駕駛還有無照駕駛造成的交通事故所以也引起國人很高的關注"},{"start":6593.459,"end":6613.748,"text":"所以也導致有很多委員對這相關的法令的一個關心那今天本席想針對無照駕駛這個部分跟次長就是來請教因為我們知道根據統計就是目前每年約40萬件的交通事故當中就有5萬件是無照駕駛的案件"},{"start":6615.109,"end":6632.581,"text":"那平均每年造成600多人的死亡就是60000多人受傷是酒駕量乘這個車禍事故量乘死傷的6倍那我們根據警政署的一個統計就是無照駕駛裁判的統計在112年裁判的案件有316981件那去年113年裁判是281107件"},{"start":6640.666,"end":6666.635,"text":"那剛剛我們有聽到昆澤委員也針對這個議題在關心就是說這個部分也分成就是說有領駕照跟未領駕照的一個部分個別的一個數字就是未領駕照有17萬多那吊銷吊扣的有10萬多那還有包括就是吊銷吊扣之後無照駕駛的累犯的一個數字也都是居高不下那針對這個問題當然我們有些就是"},{"start":6670.136,"end":6692.855,"text":"委員主張就是說要加重一個罰則那在這邊本席先請教一下就是這邊交通部有沒有什麼想法我簡單說明如果委員還要更細一點的我再請林市長來做說明原則上呢我們大概精神會比照這裡有特別提到跟酒駕來相比所以會跟參考酒駕的立法例我們會區分汽車機車"},{"start":6693.976,"end":6720.448,"text":"然後無照駕駛的情形給予不同處罰的額度然後另外還會有對於累犯然後來加重而且是仿照酒駕沒有上限的方式來設計那駕照的本身也會有吊扣的一個期限各種不同的期限甚至到終身不得考照那內部車輛我們會就是當場一致保管然後也會有一些吊扣的牌照的處理"},{"start":6721.368,"end":6742.996,"text":"那最終呢當然我們也有所謂併法就是說那個所有人的車輛也要如果不是駕駛人本人的時候他也要有相關的一個罰款的一個處理我想大概用這樣的方式來比照酒駕看能不能對這個無照的駕駛能夠有一定的一個嚇阻"},{"start":6743.982,"end":6771.767,"text":"是 那就是我們看到就是說被吊銷吊扣駕照之後就是無照駕駛的這個就是累犯也是居高不下那針對這種狀況到底我們要加重這個罰則就能夠來解決這個問題嗎我想這個我們可能要再去做一個深度或者是廣泛的一個思考就是是不是我們也要去針對就是說造成無照駕駛"},{"start":6773.107,"end":6787.879,"text":"的一些狀態類型是不是可以做一些分析然後從源頭去思考要怎樣來解決來降低這個無照駕駛的一個件數因為會造成無照駕駛當然就是說他們違規然後可能就是違反了道交條例的相關的一些規定之後然後被吊銷了駕照那吊銷駕照之後"},{"start":6798.528,"end":6810.997,"text":"事實上就是說這些駕駛人因為有生計的一個問題或者交通的需求或者是公共運輸不夠便利所以他們只好就是抱著僥倖的心態挺而走險就是"},{"start":6813.539,"end":6831.76,"text":"就是繼續無照駕駛只要在這個吊扣吊銷的期間他能夠就是沒有違反規定或者是就是沒有發生事故的話他可能就是這樣子僥倖的度過了那個期間然後吊銷吊扣駕照期間到了"},{"start":6832.681,"end":6855.683,"text":"就可以再重新領召當然這種抱著僥倖的心態也是不可取不過這個也就是一個因果循環真的就是可能什麼原因造成他有違規的一個部分所以我是建議說我們有沒有針對這些無照駕駛的這些違規案件有沒有去做過分析透過大數據的分析就是說大概是"},{"start":6856.624,"end":6871.18,"text":"因為什麼樣的類型的那個違規造成他們叫駕照被調扣做過分析之後再針對這樣子的一個法令是不是需要再檢討的部分是不是可以這樣子做"},{"start":6872.663,"end":6896.956,"text":"這個部分我再跟委員這個報告一下就是委員所提到的是真正這個防止無照駕駛的一個重點第一個無照駕駛我們現在廣泛所稱的無照駕駛包括從來沒有領過駕照的那第二個部分是駕照被吊銷被註銷這個輪駕駛那第三個部分是這一個就是說這一個吊扣期間輪駕駛那另外第五種是屬於這個有機車駕駛執照去開機車"},{"start":6899.617,"end":6909,"text":"那這個部分 部裡面確實是有分析第一個部分就是按機車跟汽車哪一個這個種類這個無照駕駛比較多那第二個部分就是按這個年齡這個未滿18歲的那這個18歲到這個64歲的那65歲"},{"start":6917.464,"end":6942.178,"text":"這個以上的大概都有做這些相關的一個分析啦所以那這一次法令面的部分這是有提出來這一個就是說這一個就是說累犯這一個無上限的部分其實那個部分大概主要是針對這一個就是說應該是零有駕駛執照但是駕照被吊銷因為酒駕貨等的部分然後後面這個東西所以整盤的部分的話除了法規的修正面那其他的部分交通部跟公務局都有在做研議的配套"},{"start":6942.698,"end":6971.114,"text":"對 因為就是說針對交通安全 因為我們一再談的嘛 就是要回歸到這個四一嘛 就是教育啊還有這個工程啊 還有就是監理法規應該都是要併重的啦 因為我們就是說如果針對法律面一直在加重可是源頭的部分 我們或相關的層面沒有去改善或者是就是做一些調整的話 我想這個案件還是會一直這樣子的"},{"start":6972.254,"end":6986.784,"text":"居高不下所以這個部分我們就是來再講到一個這是違規的一個部分就是當然就是駕駛人他們違規的時候有一個申訴的一個管道我想這是對駕駛人的一個權利的一個保障"},{"start":6987.765,"end":7007.222,"text":"就是會導致到後來他被吊銷或吊扣可能就是一些違規件數的一個累積之後被吊銷吊扣那其中有一個樣態就是跟市長這邊討論就是說像這個超速的部分超速的部分我們駕駛人可以提出申訴"},{"start":7008.083,"end":7013.129,"text":"那最近就是說有一種狀況就是這個在蔡議委員他也曾經召開過記者會就是針對這個連結車的駕駛他被這個就是雷達測速拍照拍到說他超速了可是他的行車紀錄器啊顯示是沒有超速的"},{"start":7026.623,"end":7047.195,"text":"可是在這種狀況下舉發單位都都不承認以至於說要走上這個行政訴訟啊走法院其實這對駕駛人也是一個折騰可是目前有一個其實已經有兩個案例了然後最近一個很新的案例也是最近在5月份5月19號已經判決來撤銷他的罰單的就是一個"},{"start":7051.937,"end":7076.434,"text":"台塑貨運夜行司機這個駕駛它被舉發違規超速可是它的行車紀錄器其實事實上只有72公里所以在這個部分就是說本席要講的就是有關這個行車紀錄器它的證據力到底我們交通部這邊要怎樣來保障這個行車紀錄器的一個證據力然後來保障駕駛人的一個權利"},{"start":7077.563,"end":7104.419,"text":"是 報告委員 委員所提到的這幾個案例的部分我我自己有找這個就是檢控署還報告法務部大家有共同來做這個演唱那這個第一點的部分就是說這個就是違規人只要能夠提出包括這一個就是說行車紀錄器我們俗稱的大餅或者是說這個因為導航都有GPS這些相關的部分只要能夠提出相關證據這一個這一個到這個來提出申訴的話這個處理機關都應該要受理"},{"start":7107.401,"end":7135.216,"text":"那因為相關的證據他都要處於來做這個檢視那另外一個部分的話大概這邊就提到一個部分因為這個東西是相對因為這個就是說行車紀錄器他是紀錄瞬間然後這個GPS基本上大概也是這樣子的一個部分但是測速照相他是這個固定點然後相關有些東西是時間的部分這個比對就必須要去做這個檢核但是裡面會有一個課題"},{"start":7136.537,"end":7151.216,"text":"這個我也請這個警政署那邊大概也有作為檢討說如果說在一處這個固定測速的這個東西常常有這樣子違規的案件那回過頭來就要是這個看一下本身這個測速系統是不是有相同"},{"start":7151.716,"end":7175.624,"text":"我當然這個檢控署所有的測試系統都用每年去送標準去做驗證但是這種數位的東西這個基本上還是會有一些可能萬一啦所以只要有這樣的東西上次已經有請檢控署只要有這樣子一個趨勢跟現象的部分一定是先回過頭來這一個看我們自己的一個系統那如果說確實系統有問題等等的部分那以往處理這些相關舉報的部分就要從寬來做一個處理"},{"start":7178.527,"end":7195.195,"text":"對這個駕駛要遵守這個交通法令這個是一定的那不過就是說像這種狀況發生的時候也是會涉及到駕駛人的一個權益因為這個如果說他申訴不過的話可能就會導致他之後如果說又犯了一次或累犯"},{"start":7195.635,"end":7221.641,"text":"它可能就會導致它的這個駕照被吊銷或吊扣吊扣的這樣的狀態所以我要講的就是說這個很多的結果我們要去推因就是說到底這個違規或者是這個案件的一個發生我們也要去合理的去了解之後然後才能夠來下降就是降低這樣子的一個無照的一個狀況"},{"start":7223.301,"end":7248.292,"text":"然後讓我們的交通能夠更安全好 就這樣謝謝委員好 謝謝陳樹葉委員的執行樹葉你要不要先坐一下好 現在我們就更正我們現在來處理臨時提案現在請議事論言宣讀第一案"},{"start":7252.433,"end":7271.91,"text":"臨時提案一交通部於5月20日宣布駕照管理將有三大變革預計三個月內會有細部規劃希望明年就可推動高齡換照新措施然而高齡駕駛制度要上路前應考量偏鄉地區交通資源稀缺長者無大眾交通運輸可當"},{"start":7273.551,"end":7299.037,"text":"請交通部預頒布高齡駕駛換照新措施 且應完整考量偏鄉地區交通及經濟因素提出完整制相關配套 使得推行高齡換照新措施 並於兩個月內先行提出針對偏鄉長者自交通替代方案報告 提案人委員徐富奎等 宣讀完畢好來那個請問主管機關有沒有意見"},{"start":7300.148,"end":7313.77,"text":"跟趙偉報告最後一行這個建議就是說替代這個方案報告增加兩個字就是替代方案溯源報告這個部分大概有跟這個徐委員報告過徐委員這邊也同意好 徐委員跟陳委員有沒有意見"},{"start":7315.336,"end":7332.265,"text":"有沒有沒有好那我們這個本提案修正通過那臨時提案處理完畢如有委員對以上數提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報現在繼續執行我們請徐護魁委員執行"},{"start":7347.945,"end":7373.858,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們陳次長陳次長委員好市長早市長針對最近這個大陸的電動車的製造廠BRD他準備積極拓展海外市場甚至瞄準台灣要進軍甚至要用這個低價策略來促銷不曉得交通部有沒有介紹相關的一個訊息"},{"start":7374.978,"end":7400.778,"text":"我們是不是請林市長來做說明報告委員這個課題大概這個報宅也有提到國內代理商可能就是說比亞底據我所了解的部分大概就是說大陸廠牌比亞底可能在泰國設廠那國內代理商有這個代理的一個意願那這個東西涉及到因為現行的規定是大陸整車這一個不得經好那這個部分的話包括這個經濟部這邊大概都很密切關注這樣子的這個課題"},{"start":7402.299,"end":7428.701,"text":"那在行政部門之間內部大概也有跨部會的這個會議在延長這個相關的一個這個事宜這個交通部已經知道這一點我想我們還是要特別再提醒交通部現在我們掌握到的訊息也是他們透過這個泰國製造的部分達到一個息產力的一個效果那我想過去中國很多的產品已經透過東南亞的一個這樣的一個模式來運作那把東西都這樣請銷到台灣來"},{"start":7430.502,"end":7444.06,"text":"對我們產業造成非常大的一個衝擊面那我想我們交通部有一個車輛安全審驗的一個管理辦法那相關的規範我想應該交通部要更嚴格來做一個處理啦市長這部分有沒有辦法來達成"},{"start":7445.043,"end":7462.378,"text":"我想跟我委員做一個說明整個車輛的一個進口其實是有好幾個環節那原則上所有行政機關大家會共同努力那當然我們這裡有車輛行駛安全審驗辦法那交通部也會配合相關單位大家共同來防範這樣的一個稀產地的事情來發生"},{"start":7463.899,"end":7486.618,"text":"市長 我想我們還是要積極跟經濟部這幾個部位來發布我們一定跟經濟部來合作是 必要的時候應該要提出相關的一個反制措施我們就要下去解決 不能讓他們這樣我了解整個行政院有在處理 是對 要不然這個我想這個也是一個很嚴重的國安問題那是不是這個部分麻煩交通部在一個月之內提出一個書面報告給我們辦公室好不好沒問題 沒問題"},{"start":7488.78,"end":7512.327,"text":"那另外我想另外一個很嚴重的問題就是這個除了比亞底之外中華汽車一直也受到我們這個習產地的一個影響尤其像英國的一個汽車品牌MG也遭到中國大陸的收購那裕隆他們也透過這樣的一個模式這個在台灣做一個行銷的一個策略那不曉得江東部隊這個部分有沒有掌握相關的訊息"},{"start":7514.052,"end":7542.684,"text":"這個幫我跟委員報告有關於這個像這個中華汽車生產在台灣組裝MG的這個部分交通部應該在去年開始就跟這個經濟部充分這個合作那有關於這個在台組裝的這些在地化的一個比例那這個產發署這邊有一個規定那這個交通部在後端在他們受理來申請審議的時候我們逐一都會去做確認而且必須要確認產發署同意的這個文件"},{"start":7543.964,"end":7561.436,"text":"目前有問題嗎目前的部分我知道說有車險是符合經濟部管制的一個規定這個部分的話原則上就是說我們後端的審驗的部分都要足以一定要經過經濟部同意之後才能夠到我們這邊來申請審驗"},{"start":7563.746,"end":7574.881,"text":"我想我們台灣自己對於這個電動車的一個部分我想我們也應該要支持這樣一個國產的一個目標但是到目前為止國發會奠定的目標2030年要達到電動機車35%的新車佔比這個"},{"start":7582.13,"end":7595.41,"text":"市長我們這部分我們有信心嗎 距離這樣的時間點雖然我們的民眾很支持 但是看起來銷售的狀況不是很理想這部分我們要怎麼樣 交通部要怎麼樣來強化這樣的一個市佔率的一個提升"},{"start":7597.096,"end":7622.429,"text":"跟副委員報告一下整個這個運氣電動化戰略區的部分是由交通部來做組織來做組織啦但是相關這個合作的部位包括經濟部包括環境部包括是對對那有關於這個電動機車的部分確實跟陳副委員所提到的部分在這個去年跟今年目標因為受到這個燃油車這個薛價競爭的一個這個部分那還有一些這個電池交換使用的一個課題確實這個目標"},{"start":7624.811,"end":7648.947,"text":"都還必須要這個努力那這個部分的話我們已經跟廠方署廠方署這邊相關的補助規定還有相關的一個這個就是說譬如說這個工業區要興建那有一些相關有在地區加碼做補助的部分我們都有跟這些廠方署這邊持續來檢討對啦 尤其是我們偏鄉你就沒有那個交換站可以往電梯上面 裡面都那裡有這個廠方署這邊有規劃所以我們要自己來做一個盤點跟規劃嘛是是是"},{"start":7653.424,"end":7677.257,"text":"我會來跟經濟部來共同合作啦我想我們這個我們也是要往前來推進啦這個畢竟這個是盡力環保的一個很重要的一個意思是是是是好那次長我想今天審查這個吊膠倒膠條例本席也提出一個議題哈那因為我們近期高雄市有一位行人過馬路的時候並沒有禮讓執勤中的一個救護車甚至還對這個"},{"start":7679.058,"end":7701.013,"text":"駕駛比中止所以我想這部分我們認為這樣子是很不好的一個行為那但是交通部的回應是根據我們的道交條例第78條可以罰500塊但是我認為這樣罰得太低啦應該是我們要來強制是不是比照這個汽車駕駛如果阻擋的話處罰3600的部分交通部能不能認同這樣的一個提案"},{"start":7702.45,"end":7726.683,"text":"我想跟委員報告來確保這個救護車在執行他任務的時候的一個行車的一個順暢我想這個是應該是不管是交通部也好或國人高度的一個共識但是有關這個罰還額度是不是過低應該要提高這部分呢其實我們交通部是尊重整個這個立法院大家審議的一個結果好我想我們還是要確保我們這樣的一個安全的一個環境是是是"},{"start":7726.983,"end":7742.21,"text":"那剛剛本市有提了一個臨時提案就是針對我們當然針對最近的這個高齡駕駛的一些問題產生但是我們還是要幫我們整個的團隊是要講這句話啦他們不是喜歡開車不是喜歡騎車是因為我們的大眾交通運輸"},{"start":7743.431,"end":7756.284,"text":"這沒方便 小黃公車也沒方便所以逼著他們自己一定要自己開車 騎車上路這不是不能歸咎於他們所以我們才會要求說在這樣子的一個狀況之下應該全面來盤點我們所有的一個運輸的一個機制"},{"start":7759.747,"end":7777.42,"text":"因為有方便的車公車很多有小玩公車很多大家有什麼要自己做的事情很危險我們都知道問題是他們是無奈的啊他們要處理賣菜看醫生就是必須要靠自己吧所以我們這部分我們要求交通部要趕快來做盤點那甚至我們最近聽到的我們的客運業者"},{"start":7779.201,"end":7804.842,"text":"有一條1613路線台北到屏東也申請停駛我想這些對於這個整個屏東的交通平權我想我們都希望能夠逐步來提升但是目前高鐵南沿屏東要2039年才完成那我們的巴士的部分能不能再增加一個這樣的一個運輸的量能不然我們就剩1吋鐵路而已這樣對我們很不公平部長這部分是不是可以來做協調"},{"start":7807.598,"end":7830.967,"text":"有關這個是不是停止的申請我想那個公路局大概應該有跟業者做相關的協討那部裡頭的基本的立場就是民眾的基本民行的這部分是要確保的那是不是有其他的替代的方案或者是行使其他的路線來取代代替等等的我想這個公路局後續他們會去來做處理"},{"start":7831.207,"end":7852.757,"text":"對 除了這個之外 長途之外 甚至我們過去因為這客運業 因為也因為虧損的問題所以包含我們有時候恆春半島一些偏鄉 這區間的一些 它也沒要開啊這實際上對我們是很不公平的是 這部分我們請公路局去了解一下 然後看怎麼樣來這個是一個責任 不是一個用利益來交換的一個條件嘛"},{"start":7854.838,"end":7883.415,"text":"所以我剛才講說基本民行的確保這是交通部的既定的一個政策跟方向我們會請公路局本這樣的一個原則來做相關的規劃好 所以我想像我們5月5號我們交通委員會有到屏東考察那當時是您帶隊我們這個屏東線的單車國道的這一段路面受損非常的嚴重那我想這次當中也有承諾這個部分我們優先處理那經過一個月了這個案好像還沒有核定"},{"start":7884.469,"end":7906.941,"text":"這部分呢 我想車公路局 相關的程序正在處理處理完 進速報到部裡頭 我們會進速來核定這個我想這個行人的交通安全 我們很重視這個單車騎士的安全 也要重視要不然你騎一騎 抱著要申請國賠 你也會去啦是是是 要儘處理啦我們會加速相關核定的一個程序什麼時候可以完成 給我們一個答案好不好"},{"start":7911.661,"end":7930.693,"text":"跟委員報告就是四月份的時候大概就是縣府修完然後我們南分局大概也有報局了我們會這個加速來審查然後儘速在在一個月內我們會報報布這樣子好 一個月啊我們報布啦我們把我們的審查的結果報布各位同志顧嗎 次郎"},{"start":7933.401,"end":7943.644,"text":"我們盡快來來來來核定啊是我想這個加速加速來處理加速來努力了好謝謝好謝謝行務委員現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7970.247,"end":7990.299,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7990.299,"end":8009.462,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8015.202,"end":8021.191,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8153.473,"end":8159.822,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8192.248,"end":8194.152,"text":"副總裁"},{"start":8617.165,"end":8636.518,"text":"好 各位請就座來好 現在請何欣淳委員執行好 謝謝 今天特別謝謝趙偉剛剛休息10分鐘 那我們請次長好 請陳次長"},{"start":8646.008,"end":8671.774,"text":"市長好市長我想我們曾經共同推動這個微型電動二輪車的一個強制納管從法規的修改到制度的建立那甚至呢到這個所謂的過渡期宣導期那在去年12月正式的來上路強制納管那市長這個你認為已經正式納管半年了"},{"start":8672.864,"end":8689.772,"text":"你認為我先講我的看法我當初我主張要強制納管就是因為我提案說在我們實際的一個交通道路狀況上面很多的微型電動二輪車常常發生事故尤其有很多的外籍移工這個"},{"start":8691.933,"end":8700.956,"text":"來到台灣他們可能的第一部車是所謂的微型電動二輪車那過去常常有發生過事故糾紛那肇事可能是肇逃或者是事後的賠償常常在這個地方上發生爭議那不知道該怎麼處理跟面對所以我認為其中一個解方就是應該要強制納管那來掛牌上路那現在做了我認為是對的因為我下一頁"},{"start":8722.915,"end":8744.631,"text":"我現在看到的這個報導跟我當初的想像我覺得有一點不太一樣我不知道這個數據當然我們可以再來討論就我台中市我得到的數據台中市自己市區台中市的境內的微型電動二輪車的事故發生率是有降低的"},{"start":8745.251,"end":8759.446,"text":"但是以我現在看到的公視跟道安總動員裡面的報告裡面全國的微型電動二輪車的事故是往上提升的事故的發生數是年年增"},{"start":8760.367,"end":8781.986,"text":"那這個我不知道次長或是交通部有沒有掌握那尤其呢在我們現在看到的這個表上國高中生跟高齡者的事故數是提高那尤其國高中生的一個事故數又是比例又更高次長你知道這件事嗎可以請我們黃司長說明一下"},{"start":8788.016,"end":8809.959,"text":"來 市長跟委員報告 基本上就如同委員所說的現在就是自從微型電動用車開放以後因為它的使用數量也增加所以事故的那種數量就跟著游行那我可以請問一下嗎 在我搜尋到的數據裡面的大安總動員裡面的數據裡面有包含這個新住民或者是外籍移工的事故發生數嗎"},{"start":8812.805,"end":8839.294,"text":"這個資料基本上是偷偷的加總起來的要的話要細分啦 要再去細分要再細分是不是我現在要提這個問題就是當時我們認為應該要建立制度強制納管要掛牌就是希望能夠呢第一個我們知道車流的一個流量第二個我們能夠掌握人車是對比的起來我找到車子我可以找到人"},{"start":8840.803,"end":8857.86,"text":"第三個我們認為有強制的納保起碼在事故發生的時候能夠給予一定的保障我想這個本來利益良善而且現在也確實在執行不過我再提醒我們在這個法規制度面裡面新購買的你一定要強制納保跟掛牌上路"},{"start":8865.165,"end":8892.605,"text":"以前在我們法規修法之前已經存在的我們是用鼓勵性質的那次長我們現在在修法之前既存的就有的微型電動二輪車的一個掛牌納保我們現在掌握的數據是多少公共總局說我們是有25萬的這個那全台灣你們掌握數我們的微型電動二輪車大概有幾輛"},{"start":8897.29,"end":8923.371,"text":"有掛牌跟沒掛牌跟委員報告因為就是說有掛牌的現在就是之前就是使用中的都我們要求就是都要強制都要掛牌這當然知道這所以你好掌握數量去年12月之後的話就是說如果說他沒有掛牌的話其實他這個就是已經是違法那違法的車輛其實因為有些以前微型電動二輪車他使用有一些壽命所以他有一些部分其實是他有可能會報廢"},{"start":8925.626,"end":8950.654,"text":"我是建議交通部應該要再更細向的去掌握狀況因為剛剛的回答就讓我知道說事實上我們只有掛牌的新購的車輛已經來強制納管的當然你可以精準的掌握數字這也是當初修法要有這個法規制度的一個最重要的目的但是我也必須要再講那沒有"},{"start":8951.474,"end":8966.011,"text":"在修法之後如期掛牌納保的還有沒有寄存的到底全台灣的微型電動二輪車到底數量有多少這個就是我們有沒有辦法從源頭去掌握整個大數據"},{"start":8966.992,"end":8986.686,"text":"我為什麼要求源頭掌握第一個你才能夠清楚的知道全台灣到底有多少的在路上的微型電動二輪車第二個你不是只有放任性的有稽查到有事故發生我才可以掌握如果沒有的話你可以去我們中南部的路上去走一走看一看"},{"start":8987.426,"end":9011.775,"text":"有許許多多的未掛牌的或者是變形的微型電動二輪車在路上走那這些都是在我們現在在討論交通安全不管是行人安全也好或是我們道路設計的路口安全也好那你如果沒有辦法實實在在的掌握在路上到底有哪些交通運具在行駛那你怎麼去"},{"start":9012.535,"end":9027.112,"text":"修 調整我們的道路規範還有說你要講的這個交通安全的整體的一個推動次長你懂我的意思嗎這個在我們中南部 我想你去走一趟就會看得到耶那整個很多耶"},{"start":9031.924,"end":9053.681,"text":"我應該特別提到微型電動二輪車納管其實我們有一定的當時的一個目標那現在又特別提到說使用中的既有的是怎麼樣在處理我想這一部分麻煩請公務局跟那個地方的縣市政府還有警察單位大家再去討論一下如何去做一些像稽查"},{"start":9054.321,"end":9057.284,"text":"以前剛開始要納管的時候也對於那些店家啦或者是這個有去宣導過嘛對不對源頭的一些處理或者是工廠啊等等的去做相關的宣導甚至是去做開發我想可能還是需要再一波的我們希望去輔導"},{"start":9070.177,"end":9077.745,"text":"我希望你去輔導我希望你去源頭能夠掌握那我們希望在路上都是合法的微型電動二輪車那我們針對的這個電動二輪車在道路行駛上的一個安全問題我們很關注那尤其我們14歲以上就可以"},{"start":9088.296,"end":9108.388,"text":"騎這個微型電動二輪車他14歲以上就我剛剛講的國高中生國高中生呢他的這個事故比例看起來是年年而且比例爬升的很快那所以我為什麼要你精準的去掌握呢是因為我們要對症下藥所以我接下來最後 稍微再給我死顏色囉我最後就是要告訴你"},{"start":9109.878,"end":9133.051,"text":"不管是青少年或是高齡那他們的事故主因到底是什麼那我們要有分析因為我知道在你們道安總動員裡面你們有針對細項去做這個事故噪音的統計但是你們既然有統計數字你們就應該要去分析那有分析你才知道找解方嘛那譬如說少年這一部分"},{"start":9133.571,"end":9148.744,"text":"看起來好像都是對於交通規則或者是標示標線的優先順序或者是怎麼樣好像比較不清楚那我們該怎麼跟教育部或者是跟校園地方政府來合作怎麼來讓青少年能夠安全的行駛微型電動二輪車"},{"start":9155.169,"end":9169.862,"text":"成年人的部分高齡者有稍微稍微有這個事故比例有稍微增加那我們對高齡者在使用電動微型電動二輪車的時候我們又應該有什麼樣的解方或是宣導嘛對不對 次長"},{"start":9173.674,"end":9195.383,"text":"我們會責請陸正道安司也好或者是公務局跟各縣市政府針對這種成因然後來研擬相關的一個配套措施是啦好不好我希望你需要多久的時間一個月給我一個月內給我一個月內給一個書面的一個報告給我一個初步的一個延期規劃好不好好謝謝謝謝何新淳委員的執行"},{"start":9202.566,"end":9223.783,"text":"現在請魯明哲委員執行好謝謝主席有請我們陳次長交通部長好陳次長"},{"start":9229.331,"end":9256.509,"text":"市長 委員好你長期在交通部大概也非常清楚我們今天針對大概有42個案子道交條例相關的一些可能罰則很多委員提案在處理我們現在大家其實民眾最關心的就是無照駕駛要怎麼樣去做在這麼多年來我們看到大概被110年3月的時候有通過了當時有提高罰則現在無照駕駛不分汽機車大概最高到2萬4"},{"start":9259.231,"end":9283.852,"text":"那經過了四年的時間啊發生了很多的一些問題啊所以第一個過去長期在研究這個問題這不是說現在突然發生的那在我們交通部長上任啊上任之後我特別在去年的11月18號我擔任召委的時候我特別排了一個如何有叫杜絕無叫駕駛啊猖獗的亂象那當時的"},{"start":9288.237,"end":9312.537,"text":"在邀集三分單位討論研擬加重、罰則以及加強輔導並行並重的措施加重包括當場移植、滑板車輛、比照危險駕駛提高罰環上限提高吊扣、排照期間提高不能考照的年限等等的罰則之條例修正草案以嚇阻無照駕駛的現象蓄意程序呈報行政院、核轉立法院審議加強輔導的部分對於未成年以及高齡無照駕駛者並將邀集縣市政府研議建立一套統一一致的輔導防治追蹤標準機制並且納入年度的到案評比"},{"start":9313.564,"end":9324.905,"text":"好 七個月過去了你們承諾的事項要方向跟程序送行政院怎麼樣去做的進度進度如何呢"},{"start":9327.92,"end":9351.786,"text":"說明一下剛剛那個七個月前講的這個案子送行政院沒有我們已經有提送這個行政院去討論了已經有去討論了提送行政院去討論不是啊你們的案子簡單來講你的修法案你們自己在交通部已經核定定稿沒有你要把正確的一個版本送上去交給行政院當然他要"},{"start":9352.386,"end":9380.26,"text":"核准嘛然後送到我們立法院來那現在進度到底是還在研究還是法條具體定了嗎是我跟委員報告一下這個法條在交通部我們已經討論過已經定案了那我們送到行政院行政院有的他一定審查這種法案的一個程序那我剛才講他法案程序的時候要先聽取我們交通部的一個報告在報告的裡面他希望我們對於罰則的部分再做檢討是現在是這樣那這裡頭剛才部長所承諾的一些"},{"start":9380.92,"end":9403.96,"text":"要辦理的 譬如說納入道安評比啦等等的 這我們都已經在辦理中了是 好 當時承諾的是希望無照駕駛能夠比照這個危險駕駛然後 規劃 是上上個禮拜 然後媒體訪問你們交通部的一個記者會宣布了無照駕駛要比照這個酒駕"},{"start":9406.158,"end":9423.785,"text":"到底是什麼就是說你們有沒有一個長期的一個政策因為這政策說真的交通治理罰款是尾段尤其是無照駕駛大概有非常大的比例是在我們辛苦低限的警員因為你AI不管怎麼去照相科技司法照到大概都進行舉發居多"},{"start":9425.666,"end":9450.611,"text":"那你照照之後他可以說不是他嘛所以無照駕駛這件事情我們人工比例非常大但是他是在尾端真的沒辦法罰交通治理還有很多的前端的政策去考量源頭怎麼樣去減少嘛讓這些人就不願意嘛當然罰款是一個方式還有其他如果你沒有長期去做這個研究的時候怎麼會說比照這個危險駕駛因為危險駕駛上限是三萬六"},{"start":9453.211,"end":9479.539,"text":"大概3萬6我們不談貨車啦就講這個普通駕照3萬6就這2萬4我要把它調成3萬6這去年11月18號的一個方向就到了6個月後前一陣子說的是比照這個酒駕酒駕最高機車汽車就分了分家了9萬到12萬所以你們現在的理念這樣好不好講清楚方向了齁這個到底是要當時承諾的"},{"start":9481.34,"end":9498.961,"text":"比照危險駕駛大概最高罰款是三萬六還是現在說的他提高到九萬到十二萬而且汽機車分家無照駕駛汽機車沒有分家機車汽車都一樣那未來是不是怎麼樣分家請你說一下你有沒有研究"},{"start":9502.105,"end":9517.345,"text":"事實上剛才各位委員特別提到當時是比照這個危險駕駛那我們現在經過這一陣子以後的研究我們發現就是應該要比照這個酒駕的方式分家而且發販沒有上限詳細的情形我請林市長來跟委員做說明"},{"start":9518.137,"end":9545.231,"text":"跟委員報告一下確實成為剛剛委員所提到的一個部分就是說我們這個去年研擬的那個部分那這個是提到到這個3600是比較危險駕駛最大罰款的部分那今天在檢討之後也確實這段時間大家剛剛相後委員也這個事情提到這個有關於無照駕駛的一個總列我們去細分機車跟汽車還有包括研擬的部分是有不同所以我們這次在這個檢討的部分市長這樣啦因為今天時間真的非常有限"},{"start":9548.152,"end":9570.3,"text":"那我是要拜託你們你們那個政策我希望比較讓別人看起來是長期在研究而且很多都有一些有什麼依據的不要說半年一下講東講西就感覺說都可以所以我覺得這個的部分你們仔細研究那現在送到行政院的部分你們如果要針對這個部分要修我希望也速度能夠快一點因為畢竟無照駕駛"},{"start":9571.3,"end":9592.459,"text":"其實是一個比較高風險的交通違規或者事故的一個群體所以非常非常重要抓這個群體的危險係數比一般要高一點所以這個部分如果係數高又可能造成了我們用戶人無辜的用戶人或者本身生命的威脅我覺得非常不好而且要積極要處理的"},{"start":9593.98,"end":9611.466,"text":"再來第二個我們來看一下這三年無照駕駛的舉發數其實用想像的比較看不出來到底兩萬三萬還是五萬其實沒有調出來我都不知道這麼多每一年每一年就看113年好了"},{"start":9613.083,"end":9628.543,"text":"像現在這樣一點一年還是有28萬多人被舉發無照這個駕駛坦白講那黑數我不知道你們認為三倍五倍你們自己去研究啦因為要被警察抓到無照所以三倍五倍都不離譜啦所以這是一件"},{"start":9629.945,"end":9647.046,"text":"滿可怕大家覺得無照駕駛對很多 我以為2萬8而已你知道嗎28萬就對大家一個普遍社會說沒差啦 沒差那到底要怎麼解決再來你看17歲以下 因為他沒辦法考駕照沒辦法考駕照的話 他有"},{"start":9647.947,"end":9674.199,"text":"到今年感覺是有向下降了4%那是什麼原因還是不小心他這個沒有沒有原因的下降那你看25歲到64歲甚至65歲以上尤其25到64歲他一般他們是工作的年齡是家庭的經濟支柱那對於可能17歲以下就是說比較帥比較趴但上學也要方便可能理由"},{"start":9676.5,"end":9700.991,"text":"但這個年齡就是完了我又沒公車所以這個部分你們後面的整個邏輯他後面推論出來邏輯你們要去研究啦有些東西你罰款罰了你發覺有限嘛為什麼有些人真的要上班那我們的公共運輸是不是到底哪裡出問題各縣市各個領域到底為什麼發生這些事情是要你們形成一個交通治理的政策我覺得你們要去思考17歲以下家長怎麼會買車給他"},{"start":9707.296,"end":9723.111,"text":"小孩子他自己很有錢有可能大部分家長就買車給他了他沒駕照他也買給他了他到底要怎麼樣去約制對不對他沒有車當然就不能騎啊再來就是學校這些都學0年的小朋友他到學校其實學校都知道嘛"},{"start":9723.892,"end":9737.848,"text":"學校跟家庭怎麼樣去做處理我也希望除了道教條例 條高法則這個方向如果你在源頭沒有一些治理的政策我覺得這樣是不行的請你們朝這個方向來研究好不好"},{"start":9739.521,"end":9742.423,"text":"委員的建議很好 我們也是朝這個方向在處理"},{"start":9769.461,"end":9795.577,"text":"不過25到64是提供這個量體非常大人家家裡怎麼吃飯啊你這邊解釋一下我覺得公共運輸我真的要去做處理那接下來那就你們不用回答了我直接把它講完就好了那再來去分析這麼多人沒有駕照一年30萬人因為無照駕駛被取定那其中再分那有沒有累犯啊就是事實上已經被抓到了他覺得沒有差"},{"start":9796.457,"end":9821.036,"text":"那這種的駕駛朋友可能不是你加到五年之內兩次以上他可能天天在騎 天天在騎但你看這個數字喔 就是整個累犯率比例也是非常非常高那與這個駕照被扣掉了 他總共汽車總數是四萬六千多人他已經沒有駕照 然後再累犯"},{"start":9821.897,"end":9845.854,"text":"一年喔113年來講大概9000多人所以像這種累犯尤其像17歲以下騎機車的小朋友啦他累犯比例真的是又高於這個平均所以我覺得家長跟學校怎麼樣透過這個學校或者其他的方式來教育或者約制我覺得這蠻重要的最後一張"},{"start":9847.423,"end":9866.932,"text":"再去分析剛剛無照駕駛什麼原因你們要學校家長那另外一種呢其實比較嚴重在這裡其實他考了駕照了他不是就是你符合考駕照的年齡有些人沒考這些都剔除未成年的全部剔除有一種狀況是說他已經經過了馬路的測試他就完全"},{"start":9871.161,"end":9892.995,"text":"完全不符合道路安全的價值誰證明的 你們證明的 警察證明了怎麼證明呢 他已經被吊銷 吊扣駕照了這些人啊 就他表達有口罩 然後因為一些不當的交通的行為然後被吊扣了 你知道這些人的定義齁我覺得是比剛剛高危險情 在高危險情裡面的TOP"},{"start":9893.735,"end":9901.444,"text":"最高危險群為什麼呢就很簡單嘛 你看看這個比例這個比例一年剛剛28萬 30萬你看看這種重複來的居然有10萬的 113年就好"},{"start":9909.233,"end":9928.144,"text":"將近四成這個我覺得大家條例修了那還有什麼樣一些配合的措施讓這麼讓大家恐怖的數字啊等於每一天365天每一天300輛這個無照已經被扣了你知道為什麼被扣了被扣的這個被吊銷駕照是因為酒駕"},{"start":9932.907,"end":9953.948,"text":"獨駕 或者危險駕駛 甚至競速飆車等等的 警察抓的鑰匙 終於吊扣了 他繼續在那邊繼續啊 繼續做 那如果吊扣咧 包括車輛開上 不管行人開上斑馬線 而且撞傷行人 像這樣的的我們現在在道交鐵路 他已經一次了 在道路上"},{"start":9954.608,"end":9964.655,"text":"不正當的一個行為 或者很惡劣的行為造成了無辜其他的用戶人或行人受傷 他被調照結果比例這麼高還在路上那你們有什麼方法嗎"},{"start":9971.004,"end":9991.101,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是說在馬路上行駛車輛一定要有駕照這是一定的所以對於無照的駕駛如果他還要在馬路上繼續就是要輔導他去考駕照那如何讓他不要有...所以我們現在在講讓他如果是無照你要付出一定的一個代價所以剛才特別提到這個罰款我最後一個結論"},{"start":10000.608,"end":10012.939,"text":"你看看這幾種一種情況你除了調高閥制我覺得是一定要的但是怎麼樣你在交通治理的整個的一個你手中的一個工具你只有這個然後給民眾好啦OK了問題絕對沒有解決因為這個數字很清楚我最後要說的因為你已經"},{"start":10021.069,"end":10035.634,"text":"違反道交條例而且比較嚴重的情況才會吊或者註銷你的駕照在法令上入法的原因它的原理就是我們用法律的依據來取消這些不具安全駕駛資格這些駕駛者"},{"start":10038.115,"end":10065.576,"text":"而且用法定的 取消他法定的資格你沒有法定資格 這很重要 可是他不理啊那這樣的話 我們現在一直在討論道交條例或者其他法律我們要透過法律手段 想辦法要這樣來排除道路上這種交通危險的因子結果做得並不好我真的是希望 我這樣的提醒你真的要全面向哪裡 交通部所有的工具去研究 好不好"},{"start":10067.091,"end":10076.062,"text":"是 我們會按 依照這個方向來去好 謝謝好 謝謝魯明哲委員的執行現在請廖先祥委員執行"},{"start":10088.127,"end":10096.34,"text":"好 謝謝主席那邀請我們交通部政次我們陳政次好 陳政次應該警政署應該有應該交通組組長有來嗎陳組長組長有來警政署交通組"},{"start":10101.192,"end":10129.891,"text":"好 謝謝 今天要跟市長 跟警政署討論一下我們道路交通管理處罰條例它的適用範圍我們的道路 因為我們的法令要在對人民做規範做約束或者是懲處的時候法律有明確性你有怎樣的行為就會被我們處罰明確性相當重要的那我們道路交通管理有一些規範我想確認一下我們這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎還是也包含了私有場域"},{"start":10132.873,"end":10152.586,"text":"其實在這個處罰條例的這個應該是第三條最後其實它是公眾通行的地方然後又經過這個當地的主管機關對於標示標線都有納管的那個區域就是所謂道路的範圍所以重點在於如果是私有的場域的話"},{"start":10153.649,"end":10181.846,"text":"他就是看其他供公眾通行之地方如果說他有供公眾通行的義務的話他就適用我們道教條例如果他沒有供公眾通行的義務的話那他就不適用道教條例是這樣嗎所以我們可以發現有些停車場他是供公眾來使用而且呢這當地的警察機關或者是公路主管機關會在裡面會有執法會有標誌標線的畫設等等的那那個地方就是屬於公共的地方"},{"start":10181.926,"end":10186.589,"text":"好 謝謝市長 警政署我們的執法的原則也是如此嗎 公共狀況型市內土地不算不算市內土地不算你們兩個現在講話的回應有點落差喔到底算不算市內土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰料理來開罰單可不可以"},{"start":10211.229,"end":10225.728,"text":"如果是那個繼承的道路才算啊繼承道路嗎私人的土地不算公私行號啊他們有有那個圍起來啊有那個他們私有的土地那個不算"},{"start":10226.649,"end":10252.246,"text":"跟委員特別提到其實我們兩個的答覆並沒有衝突我剛才特別一條私人的要公眾通行而且相關的交通或道路主管警察機關要經濟相關的管理或標他會去執法會有標線標色的畫色等等的才還算也就是他把它開放成類似像公有來供大家使用的所以他剛才講的私人空地他根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題如果他沒圍呢"},{"start":10254.347,"end":10282.049,"text":"不是違沒有違還是屬於他私人當然他是私人的啊好沒關係其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的啦那當然這個組長講的其實就民眾普遍上面來講的話有一種形態你也沒有拿出來就是騎遊啦騎遊一定是私用啦這個部分無庸置疑騎遊騎遊可能也在騎遊上面已經有了啦騎遊有就其他公共通行的地方那實務上我要跟兩位報告包括地方政府因為我們現在交通部門有解釋函對不對"},{"start":10285.279,"end":10307.652,"text":"怎麼去認定他是不是其他公共狀況情的地方我們解釋很多如果我也有那個我們可以提供沒有我們辦公室跟你們要過有沒有相關的解釋函其他公共狀況情我們是沒有相關解釋函導致的地方政府有自己的解釋函包括法院法院可能也有做相關的解釋我們可以來提供好那這個兩位那我們來看一下下面的圖片"},{"start":10309.293,"end":10323.678,"text":"來這個是私人社區就是我講的這個私人社區那當然它是一個建築基地我們有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭左邊箭頭我講的當然就是這個有地磚的部分哪一邊可以停車哪一邊不能停車你們看不看得出來我講的是這個有地磚的部分不是馬路"},{"start":10338.547,"end":10340.047,"text":"用私人的範圍私人基地的人行道你們兩位的解讀是這樣次長你也是嗎對所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單如果沒有特別的標示之類的次長你也一樣的看法嗎"},{"start":10371.001,"end":10380.105,"text":"好沒關係我直接就是既然這件事情都要討論的話民眾怎麼判斷警察現場開單怎麼判斷那個我們下一個下一個我右邊的這個是建築圖館機關的圖左邊的黃色的斜線黃綠斜線它是騎樓地 無遮掩騎樓右邊綠色 右邊同樣的一個角度它就是單純綠色綠色是代表法定空地"},{"start":10399.732,"end":10415.668,"text":"那你既然為7樓地你就有必須要供公眾通勤的衣物7樓那右邊他是法定空地那他就是自己私人土地就是誠如我們組長講的你沒有說要給公眾通勤的話那你就要必須你可能警察就沒有去開單但實務上民眾看得出來嗎"},{"start":10420.782,"end":10429.991,"text":"我們警察去開單的時候難道還要 我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好 那包括下一 那我們再看下一張對面啦 對面這就是他對面 兩邊來 猜猜看哪邊可以停車 哪邊不能停車"},{"start":10449.468,"end":10471.781,"text":"我會問你就代表你一定看不出來啦因為現場就看不出來嘛來 下一頁兩邊都是騎樓地兩邊都不能停車那也就是說我們的建築圖館裡面我就只講建築圖館裡面就好建築圖館裡面有一些建築法定的規範你必須跟公眾通行但是這套系統包括它的土地的屬性你必須要去跟"},{"start":10472.742,"end":10489.435,"text":"建築主管機關去查詢之後你才知道當然有一種例外的是開放空間開放空間的話它會有現場的一個告示牌或許就看得到相關有一些判例法院也認為開放空間因為開放空間在法定上的意思就是當初有一些建商"},{"start":10490.336,"end":10510.615,"text":"我們把一些建築基地的空間供不特定的對象通行不特定對象通行那給你隆起獎益所以他是必須要提出來的提供給公眾通行的一個義務但是這很多東西你沒有告示牌的情況下你的警察是很難去判斷他是不是開放空間他是不是騎樓地他有沒有供公眾通行的一個義務"},{"start":10512.668,"end":10531.442,"text":"這你直接看看不出來我們直接看下一張就快速掃描過去好了一樣啊兩邊啊兩邊的社區啊看不出來啊左邊的這個社區人行道是法定空地啊右邊是騎樓地啊看不出來嘛那看不出來的時候民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法我們警察怎麼知道有沒有違規好那下一張"},{"start":10532.714,"end":10545.887,"text":"一樣 這個就更複雜了你看右下角圖最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地然後右邊也反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地你這樣看得出來一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地哪邊是騎樓地"},{"start":10547.547,"end":10576.507,"text":"實際上是很難去判斷的所以我認為我們在執法的時候我會建議我們交通部可以有一個更明確的一個指示只要是私人的土地只要是私人的土地那現場可能未來是要由我們的交通部門地方的交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示告訴大家說你這邊的土地它的屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務"},{"start":10577.367,"end":10602.164,"text":"那所以他施用道路交通管理處罰條例那你們 你就不可以來這邊行政我們警察就會來開單否則現在就是每個 跟你講每個警察像我剛剛講的一些案例啦有的警察去開啦 有的警察不去開啦那每個警察的執法也都不一致啦那地方政府會有地方政府的解釋地方政府 譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是說只要是"},{"start":10603.376,"end":10616.34,"text":"都審通過的退縮地那有通行的就大概有一些做解釋哪一種型態但是實際上你看現場你根本看不出來他到底符不符合哪一種型態那市長或者是署長你們可以簡單回應一下面對這種狀況未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性更一套標準"},{"start":10627.219,"end":10646.448,"text":"我們一定會請我們的同仁一定要判斷說這個到底是齊樓地還是法定的空地我們會要求執法一定要明確就是說不要亂開單不要為了執法而執法但是如果事實上真的是違規的那就一樣要開法"},{"start":10647.386,"end":10664.538,"text":"我們會要求更嚴謹所以民眾去的時候還要先上網查一下去建築的管理系統看一下這私人地到底可不可以停然後我們警察開單前也要上網查一下你不覺得這樣很警察一定是當地的拍手啊 轄區的拍手那他對於當地的你會不會覺得這樣對於我們警察同仁的負擔太大了"},{"start":10667.88,"end":10691.315,"text":"的確是有一點對啊 你還要去查 次長你怎麼讓他更簡便的讓民眾跟司法單位我想跟委員報告 委員剛才提到很多的其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地事務對 沒錯像這樣的一個情形不一而足所以不可能有一個就是一個譬如我講私人空地就不可以停類似像這樣的一個解釋或私人空地可以停這個太簡略了"},{"start":10693.937,"end":10711.58,"text":"但是呢如何去認定所謂剛才講道路範圍我剛才也提到過這個我們也做了多次的解釋那我相信各地方政府或警察機關我會建議我們交通部未來私人土地要讓我們的警察同仁來開單的時候我們就必須要有正面的告示"},{"start":10712.763,"end":10729.298,"text":"正面的告示這一個我想社區的管委會啦或是相關的那個他如果上那一塊空地他是不可以停的我相信他們會去做一些告示不可以停那是不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停那個又牽扯到民法了"},{"start":10730.424,"end":10753.332,"text":"我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例因為就一個空地的話民眾要所以你就覺得沒關係以後就讓警察單位慢慢自己去判斷民眾自己去判斷跟你們交通部沒有關係不是交通部其實是牽涉到法律面那法律面我剛才也特別提所以法律面就是要明確對我們像每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車我跟法律還沒有異議我跟委員報告法律的明確不是到簡單化"},{"start":10755.272,"end":10772.937,"text":"這個是兩個是不一樣的不是說簡單化就可以解決而是要明確可以適用所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓他明確然後每一個人停車人也有停車人要盡的義務執法也有執法的一個權限大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治"},{"start":10773.097,"end":10798.044,"text":"好 沒關係啦 反正這個問題我也相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候你會知道這個是不管是民眾或者是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾那我希望交通部能夠出面來有一個好的解決的方式我就不浪費大家的時間我希望後續你再請我們的司長來我辦公室討論一下好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝我們廖先祥委員現在請黃建豪委員執行"},{"start":10807.88,"end":10834.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們請交通部政次 陳次長好 交通部陳次長市長好 市長我想一開始當然要針對一個時事來救教我想大家看到新聞說史喆即將接任這個台灣高鐵公司董事長我想請問一下那個 市長我們現在交通部派在高鐵董事會的代表幾位"},{"start":10837.168,"end":10856.054,"text":"市長知道嗎還是兩位兩位嘛 兩位嘛一個是我們吳東霖嘛 一個是這個這個交通部綜合計畫師的副市長吳東霖一位是我們鐵道局的楊振軍局長代表人最終派兩位在所謂高鐵公司的董事會裡面是是"},{"start":10856.454,"end":10884.278,"text":"那高鐵公司董事會成員裡面吼包含了這個裁判法人中華航空事業的發展基金會的航發會然後包含中鋼公司包含台航公司包含行政院國發基金管理會然後包含說東雲機電然後包含台北富邦銀行以上是董事會的成員那我們現任的高鐵公司董事長吼他是來自於航發會的代表人鄭光遠他現在擔任高鐵公司董事長那我想請教一下我剛剛講的這些董事會成員裡面就剛好沒有死者嘛"},{"start":10884.938,"end":10907.802,"text":"那我想問說 如果矢澤能夠去擔任高鐵公司董事長的話他是以什麼樣的身份他具備董事會的哪一個成員的身份 他能夠來擔任董事長我想後續呢 大概就會有一個這個推派的一個指定的一個程序那個 吳政是因為這個業務是你 是不是可以上來 可以可以那因為"},{"start":10912.379,"end":10918.071,"text":"吳政事他是主管鐵道所以這個部分是不是請他幫忙一下"},{"start":10921.467,"end":10945.366,"text":"當然要當董事長一定必須是這個董事的身份才可以對那他現在還沒有現在應該現在是我今天有看他文啦行政院核定是他未來會當董事長但是他的董事我要看一下應該是依照行法會的董事代表他是用行法會不是用交通部的嗎不是他行法會屬不屬於交通部投資轉投資的"},{"start":10947.308,"end":10951.435,"text":"單位應該不是他算你們投資財團法人嗎財團法人是"},{"start":10953.274,"end":10977.931,"text":"那我想依據它既然是江東部投資的財團法人那你們有一個所謂的江東部與所主事業機構派任公民事業機構及財團法人機構領選的標準一個領選標準不管你派任機構還是財團法人裡面有一個機關代表領選除工會推派的董事之外應該劇烈幾個資格第一個企業的經營管理具有豐富學識跟經驗"},{"start":10978.812,"end":11002.334,"text":"第二個 他的專長適合該事業或財團法人需要第三個 現身職務與該事業或財團法人業務有密切關係第四 投資該公司的公民營事業機構現任董事長或者是總經理或副總 有這是個條件那我想問一下兩位次長 那請問一下你們覺得使者適用這個規定裡面的哪一條他可能會使用哪一條 他可以去行發會擔任 所謂的"},{"start":11005.066,"end":11021.668,"text":"董事然後進入高雷公司擔任董事我想呃呃呃使得政委他有他的專業性是是他有他的專業性是好啦沒關係啦不為難市長市長市長浩子說到底他會因為我剛剛講這四條嗎這是你們交通不定的一個遴選標準嗎"},{"start":11022.87,"end":11045.44,"text":"那我相信各位都很專業 包括說我們現在以交通部為代表派在高鐵公司的董事的這個兩者席次也都是相關的專業那不管是航發會也好 不管是中鋼也好 他們都銀行團也好大家各自有各自的專業性跟他的代表性所以我好奇 只是好奇說既然有這個遴選標準 有這所謂四個規範有具有一定的專業性或是關聯性"},{"start":11046.32,"end":11064.739,"text":"我只好奇說那對啊你們交通部竟然是主管機關那今天你派了一個因為他要當董事長之前他必須成為董事會成員那董事會成員的限制就是剛剛提到那幾個單位嘛交通部也好 航班會也好 中鋼也好他想必不是中鋼的嘛那他的這個選擇有限那到底怎麼去領選他成為"},{"start":11066.6,"end":11090.462,"text":"機關代表然後進入董事會然後進入董事會他才能夠成為董事長啊邏輯上來講法律上來講應該是這樣才對啊是啊相關的程序是這樣啊那剛才我也回應了委員的說法就是說他是有專業的尤其是專業來治理整個一個公司專業性能夠把這個公司治理好我想這是最重要"},{"start":11091.002,"end":11110.143,"text":"市長我想這個是應該是上級交辦我想這個程序上我覺得聽起來很奇怪如果今天查詢董事會成員裡面已經有死則了那這題就不用問了今天就是因為你們先收到派令說他當董事長那我們看董事會成員裡面發現沒有這個人那他突然就可以來當董事長了我覺得這個是你們把整個程序這個真的是"},{"start":11111.665,"end":11125.559,"text":"編導過來啦就先有一個董事長要來了然後我才選他進來董事會所以我覺得這個是交通部整個行政院要去檢討那當然我想這不是市長的問題我只是把它提出來好不好好沒關係市長我們回到業務本身喔"},{"start":11127.748,"end":11142.324,"text":"我想我們討論一下這個今天討論道路交通管理條例那我本席也特別注重獨駕過去強調酒駕、無照駕等等的問題那你看到獨駕這個道路交通管理條例第90條裡面有提到就是如果他的行為於兩個月之後不得舉發"},{"start":11143.485,"end":11168.632,"text":"我們看到近年獨家的件數112年 113年 114年114年 也就今年統一到4月份就已經高達1755件那去年一整年是2600件關於獨家查獲件數那真正查獲到實際舉發這涉及到 這個刑事局這邊有提過也提過一件事情就是說我今天查獲了 然後送驗然後尿檢出來的結果好像"},{"start":11170.158,"end":11180.12,"text":"時間不一定都能夠在兩個月內出爐那如果他沒有在兩個月內出爐的話那當事人只要說我沒有我否認 我不願尿檢是不是他就不用被罰 會不會有這狀況好 可以報告委員 那個有關於毒價的部分其實警政署已經有也是有去探討說如何來測禁那剛剛委員講得很好 那他如果抗拒或者說我們這個毒品"},{"start":11198.923,"end":11217.528,"text":"他的協議要去送驗喔時間會超過超過兩個月就沒辦法處罰因為道家條例的處罰是行政方面的處罰他的處罰跟刑法不一樣所以我們在這邊也有一點建議就是說他這個道家條例90條規定是"},{"start":11219.428,"end":11240.9,"text":"兩個月不得舉發是不是可以再補充一下說或者把法條稍微修一下他的檢驗我們這個期間的算法是到他的檢驗出來結果才開始算這個就在90條裡面有我們希望說委員如果可以的話也來支持那個是警政署陳處長嗎"},{"start":11243.802,"end":11264.904,"text":"我今天提出來就是希望我們要往這方向來修事務上既然這個法條擺在這邊有這個於兩個月不得舉發的問題但事務上是不是要怎麼樣修正拜託一下我覺得交通部跟刑事局應該討論一下怎麼樣去處理這個事情不然說就像提到了他兩個月時間到然後因為量能不足檢驗不到然後兩個月過後他就沒事了"},{"start":11265.464,"end":11274.771,"text":"那難怪我是舉發 查問件是這麼高我想跟舉發件數是有一定程度的落差啦所以這個條次怎麼修 條彎怎麼修交通部會不會處理"},{"start":11278.167,"end":11295.367,"text":"跟委員報告一下 針對這個部分的話我們大概就是說有請警政署提出這一個意見 那意見完之後我們大概會參加警政署意見來做一個處理 那時間呢這個部分就上次有跟署裡面協調 他們趕快把意見過來我們就不用韓式的方式來做處理"},{"start":11296.628,"end":11315.678,"text":"市長我們很在意時間啦因為其實講真的你看這個件數我提到為什麼要特別強件數因為112年的時候當然查分的時候還沒那麼高113年才2600今年到4月但是現在已經6月了我還沒有拿到最新數字跟我報告一下兩個他們剛過來我們這個一個禮拜內合幅給警察署來一起辦理"},{"start":11316.155,"end":11334.345,"text":"好 我們希望這趕快處理啦不要擺了這一條 我想很多人有發現這一條所以他一直利用這個漏洞我想對台灣的治安 對行人的安全是很大的影響 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝黃建豪委員的執行現在請蔡其昌副院長執行"},{"start":11344.725,"end":11349.248,"text":"謝謝主席 請交通部陳次長好 交通部陳次長委員好次長好 次長今天有幾個問題來救教一下次長第一個就是那個微型電動二輪車我看他現在掛牌時間大概"},{"start":11371.653,"end":11374.677,"text":"一段期間市長你知道現在掛牌總數有多少嗎這裡好像是"},{"start":11388.268,"end":11401.084,"text":"跟委員報告就是微型電動二輪車的話目前我們大概是有32萬多32萬多輛目前掛牌的這不含那個買了沒掛牌那一種掛牌有32萬多嘛那機車掛牌有多少"},{"start":11408.622,"end":11412.864,"text":"機車大概一千四百多萬輛一千多萬輛那微型電動二輪車以113年來講它的事故數有多少"},{"start":11437.333,"end":11458.686,"text":"跟我們一樣113年事故件數是有9800件那機車有多少這邊可能還好我再查如果我的數字沒錯應該兩萬多件如果我的數字沒錯因為掛牌總數我查起來的數字跟你們不一樣沒關係以你們的數字為主所以掛牌總數"},{"start":11461.018,"end":11473.324,"text":"跟機車兩個微型電動二輪車跟機車的數量跟事故來比你可以很明顯發現微型電動二輪車事故發生的比例遠高於機車就簡單講就是說我們講道安那現在我們發現有一種載具它其實比機車更危險因為你發生事故的比例這個微型電動二輪車遠高於機車"},{"start":11491.325,"end":11517.913,"text":"好 那問題來了 我們在講道安 道安修法做交通安全各式的宣導 從政策預算包括在立法院 包括在行政院我們都希望減少人民財產生命的損傷但有一種東西 它很嚴重但我們其實沒有什麼管理的策略 甚至我們也很少討論"},{"start":11519.455,"end":11542.261,"text":"譬如說我舉例你們現在除了我們除了規定14歲到17歲是可以騎啦如果未達14歲騎我們有罰則嘛對不對好那14歲到17歲騎他其實沒有任何限制只有年齡的限制你14歲高了你就可以開始騎這個微型電動的二輪車市長"},{"start":11549.713,"end":11572.012,"text":"這個車禍的比例遠高於機車它的形態 你如果沒有認真去探究 它的形態其實就是機車它跟電動腳踏車不一樣 電動腳踏車有踏板需要踩踏但微型電動二輪車 它坐在旁邊跟摩托車一樣 吹下去就走 只是它的速限"},{"start":11573.634,"end":11599.012,"text":"25公里而已啦但是25公里在馬路上他的行為跟他的樣態基本上跟機車是一模一樣好 市長有沒有什麼方法 交通部看完這個數字之後我們希望減輕人民的生命財產的損傷交通部對於微型電動二輪車有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":11603.121,"end":11629.4,"text":"我想跟委員做一個說明就是微型電動二輪車因為也是因為基於以前沒有納管所以產生了一些問題所以我們把它特別定義叫微型電動二輪車那微型電動二輪車當時在制定它的相關的一個領牌或者是管理的規定裡頭其實就是該比照機車的幾乎都比照了唯獨就是駕照的部分"},{"start":11630.051,"end":11658.64,"text":"那所以在這部分其實我們也有在其他的場合也有特別提到說對於賣出電動二輪車的這個經銷商其實要能夠告訴買車的相關的一個行駛要注意事項等等的那如果現在有看到這樣的一個問題剛才也特別提到就是說希望我們陸正道安司能夠對電動二輪車相關事故的防治能夠有相關的一個提出相關的因應的措施那這一部分我想我們可以考慮好"},{"start":11660.64,"end":11675.867,"text":"這個應該要考慮了啦應該要考慮了嘛你們都是專家啦就是說我不是專家但當時在納管的時候我是支持的為什麼當時我跟交通部也建議過為什麼因為當時有很多我們的外籍移工"},{"start":11677.06,"end":11691.302,"text":"買了這個車子然後呢可能Maybe做了一些不好的事情可是我們沒有任何對他辨識度沒有任何辨識啦所以基於治安基於交通等等我們做了一些納管"},{"start":11692.233,"end":11710.041,"text":"但是這個納管它成長的速度非常的快再來如果你以跟機車來比它發生生命財產損失的機會遠高於機車所以未來它一定是一個問題所以我們從開放之後納管"},{"start":11711.072,"end":11739.223,"text":"我覺得光走到這裡是不足的應該我們還要有繼續往下走的下一步那到底怎麼樣的方法好讓人民也覺得普遍這樣做是對的這個就要交通部的專家很多資源也很多你們應該緊述的來研議相關的辦法怎麼來做這些事情這件事情要該怎麼來處理才會把他的人民的這種生命財產的損失降低不然他"},{"start":11740.573,"end":11768.142,"text":"說起來開那麼多錢在做機車安全不管是辦講座、宣導一大堆的但事實上機車都要比微型電動二輪車安全很多如果這兩個拿來比的話所以這個是特別跟次長提醒會後趕快去研究那研究有結論的三個月半年你們趕快給我到底你們要怎麼來做啦好不好我等著你們的報告第二個事情啊"},{"start":11769.551,"end":11782.514,"text":"台中機場連外道路因為長遠我們叫捷運局限我也很謝謝交通部你們陳部長在我的這個督促要求拜託底下你們願意補助台中市政府"},{"start":11783.597,"end":11803.34,"text":"願意就是說本來台中市政府該做的事情因為他不做那我們要求中央給他這個可言的預算讓他延伸到海線所以謝謝交通部願意出這一條本來市政府該做的事情那不管怎麼樣中央做了協助地方來做了這件事情那"},{"start":11805.412,"end":11831.603,"text":"長線我要麻煩交通部對於那個進度啊必須緊盯我們現在要求他做可言是希望這個可言的結果能夠他跟他原來所提的局限的計畫能夠一併來核定能夠一併來核定而不是漏掉最後面那一段那這是長期計畫那還有短期也就是本席一直在要求我們在短期捷運局限還沒有辦法完成對於清泉崗機場"},{"start":11835.15,"end":11852.644,"text":"這個客戶的服務我們長期還沒有辦法達成之前短期應該要有相對應的車輛就是包括公車啊或者等等觀光巴士啊這個部分我希望市長在16號的考察裡面"},{"start":11853.905,"end":11878.642,"text":"19號的考察裡面希望次長你們可以給我做一個簡報到底台中市政府跟交通部怎麼去做這個旅客的這些輸運你們也知道嘛這個輸一定要對症下藥啦因為沒有飛機班次就可以節省那有飛機班次的時間反而應該密集讓使用者覺得這個交通網絡很方便這個大眾運輸網絡很方便這個我等著你們19號"},{"start":11883.405,"end":11896.44,"text":"的報告好不好你們19號再跟我提出詳細的報告那針對今天的修法本席也有提案那我的提案其實很簡單你看我們一樣從數字上來做管理你就可以發現"},{"start":11898.223,"end":11922.295,"text":"我們對於酒駕是零容忍我們立法院這麼多年來也不斷對於酒駕的法令越修越嚴格然後呢我們的執法單位警政執法單位把酒駕也列為很重要的執法目標所以也很鼓勵員警對酒駕的取締要加強我覺得這個都很好但如果我們反過來你可以看到這個酒駕以2023年來看這個酒駕數啊"},{"start":11928.877,"end":11935.659,"text":"2022、2023最近這兩年你看2022的酒駕的案件是7863跟7954但無照駕駛的案件是53000多跟55000多就一個數字是7000多一個數字是5萬多"},{"start":11947.623,"end":11957.793,"text":"所以我們對於酒駕導致死亡 甚至無照駕駛的死亡案件 死亡這個是763 2023年 酒駕是253所以如果我們從數字來看 你就會發現這個無照駕駛對於人民生命財產的損失衝擊"},{"start":11968.644,"end":11995.199,"text":"其實他絕對不比酒駕來得輕微所以我們對於酒駕過去我們對於無照過去就是罰錢嘛罰錢罰錢所以你看這個數字啊 一直高選沒辦法下來所以本席才會提議說如果無照導致重傷或致死我們應該就要取消他考照的這個資格"},{"start":11996.673,"end":12005.454,"text":"就我們一定要有一些對他的一些處分不能只有罰錢就解決就在行政上面那當然"},{"start":12007.142,"end":12036.361,"text":"他的致死跟重傷他有另外的刑事責任這個我們姑且不能在行政上面我覺得應該要更嚴格那本席要更嚴格我很歡迎你們來討論就是說如果你們覺得本席的嚴格你們有更有效的方法其實我們不是真的要怎樣我們只是阻止這種悲劇的發生要讓這個數字下來但如果部裡面有更好的建議就怎麼樣加重可以讓數字下來"},{"start":12037.422,"end":12051.395,"text":"那我也歡迎來討論或者來修正但本席必須要藉著今天的時間要告訴透過數字上來看無照駕駛致人死傷其實這個也很嚴重這個是酒駕的"},{"start":12054.468,"end":12074.08,"text":"不到十倍但也七八倍有啦所以這個是很驚人的數字所以我們要想辦法從數字的管理上我們要讓這個數字下來這個數字下來 數字是冷冰的但是數字下來所代表的意涵就是保障更多人生命跟財產的安全市長你覺得同不同意"},{"start":12075.218,"end":12089.413,"text":"也謝謝委員的提醒從這個數字我們也看到其實我交通部也看到就是說跟這個酒駕的這個比例是很懸殊所以是我們在今天的專案報告裡面或者是在這答詢裡頭"},{"start":12090.114,"end":12115.151,"text":"剛才都多次談到就是而後有關無照駕駛的修法的一個方向我們原則上是比照酒駕的一個處理的一個方式來對於不管是罰款的提高也好或是呃旅販的一個處罰或者是駕照的吊扣吊銷或終身不得考照或者是那一部車做一些吊銷的一個處理等等的我們其實是配套的一起在做處理好希望我們進入"},{"start":12116.172,"end":12120.694,"text":"調穩的時候 我們可以再進一步來討論謝謝蔡其昌副院長現在請邱若驊委員執行謝謝主席 主席請政務次長好 小東部我們陳正次"},{"start":12147.8,"end":12149.145,"text":"市長好 市長我們先來看到"},{"start":12150.993,"end":12179.603,"text":"去年新北還有新竹三起獨駕重大車禍震驚社會不只造成民眾死傷更有兩名警務人員殉職那三起獨駕呢這三名肇事者皆涉及俗稱的喪屍煙彈的二級毒品伊托米子那這類毒品它會導致沒有辦法思考喪屍意識還有行動沒有辦法控制那稀釋者猶如上行屍走漏那卻還有駕駛稀釋後上路已經嚴重影響到民眾的生命財產安全所以本席今天就獨駕的問題"},{"start":12180.843,"end":12191.707,"text":"就叫次長 那次長我們現在看到根據警政署的資料他獨家的查獲件數從110年的43件 一路飆升到113年的2619件那3年間就暴增了將近50倍啊 而且113年的時候創下新高紀錄請問次長獨家的查記創新高的原因是為什麼"},{"start":12207.283,"end":12231.418,"text":"委員是不是我來我是檢證署交易組組長好 沒問題他獨家創新高的原因是因為這個毒品的氾濫原本在112年的年底的時候那時候上市菸袋是等於是新興的毒品那時候還沒有還沒有那個上升而且管制的時候是用三級毒品四級毒品來列管"},{"start":12231.926,"end":12253.434,"text":"那後來他這個毒品危害防治條例把他提升為這個就是我們知道112年他12月的時候修法刑法第150185條之三嘛明定毒價比照酒價處理那只要他的檢測濃度達標就可以處罰那也不需要再舉證他具體的危險行為沒有錯吧對"},{"start":12254.594,"end":12282.877,"text":"那去年 您剛剛也提到去年8月的時候行政院才將這個喪屍煙彈就是Itomidate這個伊托米子它列為三級毒品那到了11月它又拔升級為二級毒品沒錯那我們看到警政署這邊也有提供資料113年全年它2619件那從1月到7月呢541件那8月到12月它暴增到了2078件那我們可以看到它有多氾濫那今年呢"},{"start":12283.718,"end":12303.61,"text":"1月到4月份他獨駕我們查 查獲到1755件那是 這將近是去年一整年的查獲數那由於刑法的修法還有上時煙彈的氾濫嘛那獨駕的查獲數也暴增那同時他也是道路上的不定時炸彈那次長您對於遠景的查緝獨駕的流程您清楚嗎"},{"start":12312.279,"end":12332.59,"text":"也請市長您同時了解報告委員原則上我們查到開車有可疑的情形原警會依照我們的標準作業程序來攔查第一個就是說車上有毒品的是一種狀況這種狀況所以就是你們盤查的對象盤查對象那什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":12337.096,"end":12364.106,"text":"就是他這個等於是開車有這個左晃右晃危險的這種情境這個就是所以警察會把他攔下來進行盤查那接下來呢有可疑事實那接下來如果車上有毒品的話我們毒品就要送驗然後依照毒品違法防止條例送送法辦那尿液如果說他坦承了啦那當然就刑法185會加上185的危險"},{"start":12367.948,"end":12385.616,"text":"駕駛那另外那個尿液跟毒品送驗呃呈現陽性盜交條例再加上去呃盜交條例35條是所以你們會看車上有沒有發現毒品那如果有發現毒品的話就是馬上就是會馬上就現行犯"},{"start":12386.216,"end":12414.472,"text":"就是現行犯如果他拒絕拒絕尿檢呢拒絕採尿呢採尿我們要報檢察官你們要報檢察官然後再由檢察官來做偵辦是那車和人的車人和車的部分呢你們會怎麼來做處理人和車的部分人一個是移送法院嘛那如果沒有發現毒品喔只是他開車這樣很危險一定還要再驗尿之後那車輛的部分當下會怎麼做處理"},{"start":12419.262,"end":12423.154,"text":"車輛會 車輛要看狀況欸車輛要如果是毒品的話你們繼續讓他上路嗎"},{"start":12424.482,"end":12446.189,"text":"不是 如果是獨駕的話就要一致保管如果不是獨駕裡面沒有等於是他沒有承認啦我們只能採訪所以這樣子聽下來不管怎麼樣都是要做尿檢嘛對沒有錯 那今年1到4月我剛剛本席有提到案件數是1755件那這1到4月移送了1755件他是獨駕一公共危險罪處理那只有1000 但舉發數還有"},{"start":12455.513,"end":12481.25,"text":"1141件他依道路交通管理處罰條例取發那換句話說沒有取發的是35%完全沒有開罰單沒有辦法取發 次長您知道為什麼嗎我回答可以嗎因為這個可以分成兩個部分第一個就是說他還在檢驗當中還沒有出來這個因為他有我們的尿液送驗喔還是要有一個流程要送檢驗機關去驗那驗出來"},{"start":12483.749,"end":12494.118,"text":"第一個是驗出來他沒有達到陽性的反應如果有當然就會就用道家條例開罰嘛道家條例第90條的規定兩個月有些可能會來超過他最快什麼時候可以提出報告"},{"start":12504.847,"end":12528.094,"text":"依照那個流程喔送比如說 最快多久可以提出報告我們剛剛算了一下最快大概要一個多月最快要一個多月那最慢呢不是要跟委員報告齁這個尿液送驗喔還有很多的關鍵因素我這邊是問時間嘛那最快跟最慢啊因為還要看檢驗機構的量能啊那現在量能足夠嗎"},{"start":12529.929,"end":12554.762,"text":"一個多 兩個月是不夠的兩個月是不夠的 那我們可不可以來提出修法我們警政署是建議修法 有報文給交通部我們有建議修法是從那個毒品所以今天我們碰到一個問題嘛就是沒有舉發就沒有辦法吊扣駕照所以讓很多獨駕犯他繼續持有駕照繼續上路 繼續危害民眾的安全現在的情況是這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":12555.526,"end":12571.587,"text":"包委員我們有一個解決的方式就是說我們的尿液送驗驗完那個當下才算期間開始算因為他行為開始之後我們根本還沒辦法確定說我現在不跟你討論尿液那今年警政署有沒有"},{"start":12573.069,"end":12593.225,"text":"有沒有有沒有發函給交通部我們發函我想我跟會員做說明這委員特別提到的這個有關處罰條例94條警政署今年5月9號發函給交通部做詢問請問部長交通部有收到嗎交通部跟警政署溝通了嗎"},{"start":12593.985,"end":12604.775,"text":"目前進度到哪裡所以這個禮拜會回應是嗎那交通部有沒有要提出修法延長舉發期呢兩個月是不夠了我們剛也聽到組長的回答我們會再提出修法嗎因為他這個裡頭的相關的條文裡頭有一個行政檢討不是你知道獨家目前罰多少嗎"},{"start":12621.237,"end":12646.51,"text":"他是比照酒駕再說 比照酒駕稅是多少錢汽機車分開 汽機車分開分別是多少錢汽車的部分是這個應該是9到12萬然後機車的部分 機車是1.5萬到9萬 汽車是3萬到12萬那根據台北市交通裁決所3月公告資料顯示有一名累價 獨犯的獨駕的累犯 張姓累犯他曾經被抓到8次 連續8次獨駕 罰款累計264萬"},{"start":12652.159,"end":12652.459,"text":"那請問這樣的罰則對於獨駕者有效果嗎"},{"start":12673.398,"end":12696,"text":"交通部主委全國大陸最高的主管期間 希望交通部不要再觀望了如果不繳的話 其實有相關後續的一個程序的處理也請交通部盡快有緊正的處理 尤其有兩百多萬的這個我相信相關的處理是一個很大的一個目標 謝謝謝謝邱若驊委員的執行 現在請喜智傑召委執行"},{"start":12706.731,"end":12728.559,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請伍次長好 請伍次長委員好 次長好 抱歉 跟你交付任務因為我剛才說台鐵董事長"},{"start":12735.003,"end":12752.589,"text":"我今天有看到文所以很快市長就沒有兼台鐵董事長了但是我還是交通隊的議員所以台車的事情我還是會協助因為新的董事長來我不知道他會不會延續舊的政策"},{"start":12753.909,"end":12776.342,"text":"所以我還是要拜託那個次長我們代理董事長我們鳳山車站的問題我一直非常的關心是所以我們看鳳山車站其實目前當然招標一直都沒有順利然後我看他的時程是6月26 第三次招商截止收件所以時間也快了"},{"start":12777.824,"end":12794.282,"text":"台鐵總經理跟次長也都跟我提過說如果是分段招標有沒有可能分期分區招標有沒有可能那我也跟次長表達過就是說"},{"start":12796.141,"end":12824.844,"text":"第一個就是電影院一定要有第二個就是說時間上就是說你要確定可以飆得出去的話在第一期就有電影院這個部分我還可以接受但是其實我在分析就是說6月26這個如果是有人來招來領或者是有人來投標可能就機會比較大一點"},{"start":12826.59,"end":12827.742,"text":"如果萬一沒有人來臨"},{"start":12829.757,"end":12857.826,"text":"當然他不會來領著玩的嘛對不對如果有機會分期分區那第一期就是照我的我們之前給選民的承諾給台鐵的要求這個部分都有如期如這樣子的方向可以完成的話那是最好但是如果沒有的話萬一沒有的話我是強烈建立就是一加一啦"},{"start":12860.506,"end":12886.085,"text":"我希望這個不要再三心兩意了啦因為你時間拖越久就越難決定啦那我看台北車站是7月267月26還有一個月的時間所以是不是這個公告有機會可以變更或者是補充公告這個部分事實上"},{"start":12886.943,"end":12911.908,"text":"我們在看法規上是沒有問題啦但是交通部跟鐵路局也沒有可能做這樣子的決定我覺得這個是一個很重要的承諾要不然我每一次都等台鐵已經三次跟我說沒問題了這等下去真的是遙遙無期會被人家笑說你蓋得那麼漂亮變成文字館所以這個部分是不是"},{"start":12913.547,"end":12934.167,"text":"我們的次長跟總經理可以在這邊給我一個比較明確的答覆我想我跟那個召委報告啦剛剛講大概兩個方向第一個就是剛剛委員提到說1加1的問題嘛1加1的問題其實我們去問過財政部初餐師初餐師他兩個合併的時候他那個程序要重來"},{"start":12935.248,"end":12956.897,"text":"所以重來時間 我們這個已經跟他確認過這是第一個 會重來時間比較久一點當然這是我們的 也是幫案之一第二個就是我們提到的分區分區分區的這樣一個概念這部分我們現在 這部分已經在研擬我們先不管6月26號的事情這個部分我們現在在研擬"},{"start":12957.797,"end":12982.094,"text":"那剛提到的第一期一定要有電影院的部分這個我們一定會這樣操作方式來做然後我們現在在把這件信息來信息交給教堂我現在是要跟次長跟總經理報告就是說分期分期如果626沒有那分期分期是不是一再規劃我們現在就有在現在就在已經在研擬了"},{"start":12983.459,"end":13007.992,"text":"不是啊你現在626如果沒有你就要趕快設方案我已經聽了三次說沒問題有信心沒有沒問題有信心沒有這一次626是第三次了喔對 626這一次看起來我覺得應該是不樂觀啦沒有錯所以我是要求同仁剛剛講的對那你626如果沒有的話你現在再來規劃分期分區"},{"start":13009.127,"end":13017.191,"text":"要規劃到什麼時候這個比較單純這個比較單純我覺得 坦白講 次長 我一直覺得說單純 理想上是都沒問題啦但是我要看到務實的狀況真的是有效啦"},{"start":13028.055,"end":13055.084,"text":"那你今天其實台北車站跟鳳山車站坦白講鳳山車站即使是分期分區啦他還是要花建設的成本對所以對廠商來講他要去OT要再開過來演其實然後之前的問題他們在考慮到他整個商圈周遭包括拉拉炮等等的這些問題讓他做一併考量坦白講"},{"start":13056.331,"end":13079.933,"text":"我還是不敢抱得太樂觀的態度啦所以我是認為說其實你如果是一加一是最快啦啊說實在台北車頭一定賺錢嘛啊我鳳山車頭有可能前陣子要倒租啊 其實是有願情啊他不是說他跟我三井拉拉破如果合作會所以其實他可以互相拉抬的啊但是初期會比較辛苦"},{"start":13081.729,"end":13106.863,"text":"所以就是說我認為說有時候這個是決策決策的果斷性跟前瞻性啦就是說我如果今天如果是26 626沒有結果的話我如果快刀斬亂嘛我就是果斷一點我就是決定1加1我相信台北車站一定有人會去標啦台北車道不可能沒人要標嘛"},{"start":13108.442,"end":13112.148,"text":"阿台灣請客套 國防省請客套 1加1就一定飆得出去嘛你用邏輯來思考其他的細節 台鐵說要再併購1加1要併購兩年啦 我要繪畫而已啊"},{"start":13122.532,"end":13146.139,"text":"所以我是認為說這個其實在邏輯上就可以做這樣子的思考我在台北城市一定探訪一定有人來標這個邏輯沒問題吧是那鳳山1加1跟台北山1加1在鳳山坦白講初期因為他還要建設因為你一直說之前你BOTB跟OT的觀念沒有連接在一起對所以才會造成現在的問題是"},{"start":13147.699,"end":13165.174,"text":"那你現在如果叫新的廠商來標雖然是分期分區但是他還是要初期還是要做建設嘛要開過來用嘛所以坦白講我是真的是沒那麼樂觀啦所以我要拜託市長"},{"start":13166.26,"end":13184.23,"text":"董事長跟總經理跟未來的董事長就說我站在紅色車頭的角度你跟我一加一我應該是保證表的處理而且假設啦假設就是知名品牌的會來飆台北車站的基本上應該都是比較知名的品牌啦知名的品牌可以在台北車頭還可以在我們紅色車頭我覺得這很好啊"},{"start":13192.045,"end":13214.071,"text":"所以我是強烈建議就是次長跟總經理甚至未來的董事長我不知道什麼時候要進來但是我為什麼特別請吳次長就是說代替跟外當署長也是你要幫忙監管的嘛對不對是所以就是說我希望先在你一個人的胸口三個河上沒水河這個河上就讓吳次長來擔啦"},{"start":13217.813,"end":13232.383,"text":"好不好好所以我就說626如果真的沒有的話我覺得真的是一加一就趕快快到長大碼就果斷決定好不好好好謝謝市長好 謝謝好 謝謝我們許志傑召委現在請陳顯生委員執行"},{"start":13244.903,"end":13268.064,"text":"謝謝我們主席召委,是不是請我們次長陳次長還有鐵路機局長還有來我們那個吳代董事長來來來來來次長那個高鐵董事長調到台鐵去當董事長定案了沒有?"},{"start":13268.915,"end":13284.183,"text":"我想跟委員報告,今天下午我們會對外記者會說明我們現任的五代董事長是出了差錯還是什麼?在鐵路局局長那裡有出狀況嗎?"},{"start":13288.552,"end":13308.951,"text":"他做得很好,只是他當時去是兼任,代理高鐵董事長出了什麼差錯沒有?他原來從董經理升任董事長沒多久時間現在你又把他調到台鐵來?高鐵董事長,鄭董事長也做得很好做得很好,所以要調走"},{"start":13311.211,"end":13339.053,"text":"做得很好,至於新的職位的這個異動,我相信他也會做得很好我在裡面好幾任高鐵快垮了,快倒了是不是然後民運化做個財務結構的處理當然鄭董事長他是原來是長榮的董事長長榮航空的董事長轉過來他是說真的很標準的CEO"},{"start":13339.892,"end":13369.23,"text":"那高鐵今天把他弄起來了你們是要把高鐵弄垮嗎?他畢竟人家是有經驗嘛你就派了一個文化部部長改天勞動部部長也可以去幹高鐵董事長喔可以嗎?都通財嗎?執政長現在下面所有的人全部都通財幹哪一個部會都可以幹嘛是不是改天國防部部長,顧部長改天會調教育部部長也不一定喔,是不是這樣?"},{"start":13371.397,"end":13391.367,"text":"用人為財不是這樣子搞法,我對每個人都沒有意見台鐵出狀況出很多,誰到台鐵誰倒楣當初杜葳董事長幹局長的時候,我問他你準備幹到幾歲?他說我幹到退休為止果不其然幹到退休為止他不幹了"},{"start":13393.005,"end":13402.348,"text":"台鐵的局長一年換三個,還要抓去坐牢之前的次長你看看,還拿到監察院去彈劾怎麼這樣子?是誰提報的?是你們部長提的嗎?還是行政院建議的?你知道整個流程嗎?"},{"start":13416.445,"end":13441.459,"text":"我的了解整個人事的任用有一定的制度跟一個一定的程序不過我們都在看文化部部長跑去看高鐵董事長我會注意看,看他幹得怎麼樣沒有這個道理嘛是不是?那個武局長你表現很好啦,我沒看到什麼插座啊但你突然又被換下來了我是覺得滿遺憾的"},{"start":13443.141,"end":13470.092,"text":"好好的一個公司他做得很好,那他繼續做嘛,對不對像高鐵你看看,台鐵便當很好高鐵鎮總部長就來啦,就有樣學樣啊,學台鐵台鐵的便當啊台鐵便當很出名啊,很知名啊我每次在交通委員會,其他的便當我還不想吃我都要叫我要吃台鐵的便當啊,是不是?那吳代理長,董事長你請回好不好"},{"start":13471.94,"end":13498.83,"text":"另外就是公路總局陳文睿局長你上台一下南北岸塊大橋啊也就是馬祖大橋我在總諮詢的時候有曾經有提到因為院長提出來說要三百多億嘛是不是三百八十幾億嘛那世襲的是兩百多億嘛兩百九十兩百八十八億嘛"},{"start":13500.185,"end":13521.532,"text":"那殷商提供的三百多億,你們相信殷商的?法國那個人還講五百多億勒?是不是?你到底聽誰的啊?那我也曾經講說你們要找世襲,再重新再計算,因為工才都漲了嘛,是不是?你們這個動作做了沒有?"},{"start":13523.992,"end":13551.06,"text":"跟委員報告因為當初報院的時候院有提到就是說後續的部分他有涉及到跟這一個我們這個民航的這個北竿機場的這一個改建的一個這個部分所以因為國發會我現在沒有提這個對國發會的那個報告當然跟北竿機場有關聯嘛我知道我知道我現在是講他的造價到底要多少現在我要你們去向世襲去個函給世襲"},{"start":13552.509,"end":13569.373,"text":"是不是,請世襲重新計算一下我有質詢,你們也說好啊到現在,我今天不問的話又沒有啦無聲無息,可以這樣嗎?你今天重新答覆我一次你們要不要去喊給世襲,叫他重新算一下"},{"start":13571.339,"end":13587.648,"text":"經費的部分的話就是說因為他本來就是跟這個大概就是個期的這個貨幣的價值有關係所以我這個部分我們再跟世襲再做一個進一步的一個討論這一個橋做了可行性評估對不對也做了綜合計畫花了一億多你現在把他躺在那邊睡覺幹什麼"},{"start":13593.342,"end":13622.08,"text":"行政院秘書處的評估我看到了國防部的評估我看到了跟我們北竿機場事有關聯我也看到了是不是但是我現在要你們核算一下啊因為院長講說要三百多億那世襲講兩百多億到底聽誰的啊世襲有經過細色有精算的勒是不是 殷商哪有精算啊用嘴巴打嘴砲啊所以你們不要把我講的話"},{"start":13624.71,"end":13650.715,"text":"你在立法院對我的承諾然後你們私底下就不繼續做你一個月能不能答覆我你們公安出去沒有你公安付本給我好了因為你要他重新計算不是一個月能夠完成的啦你花點小錢嘛你起碼讓院長知道馬祖大橋在現階段到底需要多少錢嘛是不是有政治的問題嗎 沒有吧有預算的問題嗎 也沒有嘛"},{"start":13652.114,"end":13678.303,"text":"預算的問題可能在財政上會有點壓力啦,是不是?有技術性的問題嗎?技術性的問題也排除了嘛營商也排除了嘛,是不是?那剩下經費的問題,我也同意,我們延後再來考量嘛那你現在起碼你要給世襲公文啊,好不好?另外那個,局長你請回,你同意嗎?你公安方對付款給我,好不好?"},{"start":13680.775,"end":13698.477,"text":"市長那個齁,上次部長提到70歲以上,因為78歲三峽那邊發生了一個車禍嘛,是不是?然後要加嚴,對70歲以上的人要加嚴嘛,是不是?我也說我也是車禍害者嘛,我也提到嘛,是不是?那我是,我的建議你們開始修法的動作開始做了沒有?"},{"start":13699.901,"end":13727.007,"text":"我想跟委員報告原則上我們提出來是提高高齡者的安全價值那至於說相關的提出來以後我們對外也說明說在三個月內會提出相關的配套措施那這部分我們正在做處理我上次主要質詢的內容是希望你們注意到體格的問題嘛是不是體能的問題嘛還有認知功能的測驗嘛"},{"start":13730.197,"end":13747.015,"text":"老是把78歲來開刀咧那65歲也出了動態車禍那45歲也發生動態車禍那45歲也要來處理囉沒有道理了嘛所以你們在修法的時候你還沒修版本還沒出來啦你修法的時候要有這樣的一個認知好不好"},{"start":13748.403,"end":13771.276,"text":"不然的話就你們腦袋有問題,不是我腦袋有問題啊原則上我們會對於有風險或高風險的駕駛人有相關的一套處理的機制好不好,這修法是注意一下好不好還有這一次這個造礁條例裡面有扯到噪音的問題噪音啊,噪音車啊你們從原來"},{"start":13772.967,"end":13800.121,"text":"我看很多委員的提案,從原來的多少?900到1800上限嘛調整一倍,1800到3600嘛你認為對噪音有嚇阻作用嗎?能夠改這個人的都很有錢的咧他們有專門的地方嘛,那個噪音啊那嚇死人咧,以為出車禍這個很像不是爸爸媽媽生的啊那個衝出去以後那種速度啊那會出重大車禍的"},{"start":13802.554,"end":13821.116,"text":"你們應該把這個標準還要再把它提高啦,你一定要惡煮他啦,我跟你講啦你不惡煮他,街頭到處尤其三星半夜啊,到處都是你們怎麼抓?你叫警察去抓嗎?你就開槍打他啦,我跟你講啦,不然他不會停的你的速度沒有他的快嘛,是不是"},{"start":13822.452,"end":13835.866,"text":"你們這個方向也要去想一下噢照音車的問題啊你抓不到他的除非你抓到他摩托車你用BMW追他追得上現在照音車都很高檔都雙B的是不是你回答我一下"},{"start":13840.212,"end":13866.697,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員提到的確實是一個重點那在處罰條例裡面這個排氣管這個部分只是一個硬體的中置但是產生噪音的那個部分還是要回歸到這個噪音管制法的部分所以有關於這個噪音管制法這個相關的處罰的規定的話我們會來建議這一個環境部這個因為像空服法空服法裡面都有到這個吊銷牌照這些相關的部分我們會再來建議你不要找環保署我們要來測"},{"start":13868.637,"end":13895.657,"text":"你等人到了那車子已經到哪裡了台北他已經開到台中了現在都有那個自動車噪音的這些科學儀器還有另外一個就是檢舉檢舉檢舉檢舉人你徒增警察的人力嘛是不是五百萬人檢舉那麼警察是五百萬人在那邊現場開單嘛是不是有五百萬件"},{"start":13897.421,"end":13918.271,"text":"那現在檢舉人已經要取消了,我們上次修法的時候把它取消了現在又來了,檢舉人透過什麼?透過110110打電話去分局,打電話去派出所,派出所跟分局要回報110還存在啊,還是一樣的啊那我也聽說有些人認為說檢舉人制度應該要存在"},{"start":13919.704,"end":13945.419,"text":"那你叫警察,你看,警察現在,你們去看看,任何一個基層的警察他有個腰帶,裡面有電話、手機什麼的,槍、子彈,整排都是啊他們還算有腰啊,那算我的話,那整個褲子要掉下去啦那個重量是多重你知道嗎?好不好,你們在這個檢檢制度的部分,你們也要檢討一下好不好"},{"start":13946.459,"end":13955.107,"text":"那其他大概沒什麼事了我想尤其高鐵的事情我是覺得隨便換人都沒道理的好不好謝謝好謝謝陳寫生委員的質詢現在請游浩委員質詢"},{"start":13972.839,"end":13973.762,"text":"謝謝趙偉 那有請次長好 陳次長"},{"start":13981.105,"end":14009.084,"text":"委員好市長好那延續剛才學生委員他所提到的大概在這個長輩未來來講的這個因為三峽的事件之後啊那時候有包括的一些就是重新換照的標準有提高那在本席在兩個禮拜前那時候有提到那時候鼓勵他們長輩換照的一個普及率跟通知的一個比例那時候有提到能夠讓長輩"},{"start":14010.953,"end":14025.444,"text":"能夠盡量來鼓勵換照用一些優惠券來鼓勵他們說小禮物但是其實更務實的做法還是回歸到長輩他們相關在車子的輔助系統那在其他國外其實都有相關的補貼補助"},{"start":14026.525,"end":14043.164,"text":"那時候在提出的時候交通部那時候部長是有說會再演繹那我想請問一下這個演繹也兩個多禮拜到現在那相關的長輩的車子這種輔助系統他們在申請的這個方案那現在有沒有進展"},{"start":14044.229,"end":14072.447,"text":"跟委員報告一下這上次委員這個執行完之後那大概是指日本這個所謂防護柴油門的部分那我們也立刻去這個透過包括車輛專業去了解日本現在相關的規定那確實就是說日本有一個這個裝置就是說車輛在10公里以下或是車輛在停止的時候那如果說突然有柴油門他透過一個影像偵測的方式那如果說前面有障礙物或者那部分他就切斷這個油門"},{"start":14074.068,"end":14093.162,"text":"那這個東西基本上是一個後裝的這個部分那我們也去了解說這樣子的裝置基本上跟廠牌適用的這個車型都有關那這個裡面還有一些技術的一個課題我們現在車安中心也在持續做一個這個分析也在了解說這個產品在日本"},{"start":14093.542,"end":14116.599,"text":"因為這東西真的一方面是講說可能這個可防止霧彩但是另外一個部分的話會不會有其他的一個相關的部分這個東西技術課題都還要再做處理另外產品的一個在日本的認證方式是怎樣子這個部分我們都持續在這個數學資料跟這個研究當中因為這個東西是一個裝置可能要這個作業也更慎重一點"},{"start":14117.185,"end":14140.996,"text":"那大致上這個裝置它就是為了要這種的情況高齡者在駕駛的時候而有的這種的裝置那在日本的話都已經有相關的一個補貼的一個措施那當然要不要申請是在於就是行車的包括長輩他們要不要來就是跟機關做申請是相關的補貼那所以當然說有進度的話已經在進行這個研究很好"},{"start":14141.596,"end":14167.751,"text":"那當然說各個車型當然就有各個不同的一個相關的這個一定能夠理解那北齊還是希望說在一個月之內還能夠把這一個是不是有補貼方案也能夠跟社會大眾來做一個說明因為我相信這個部分民眾也在期待這個補貼方案到底什麼時候能夠有那大致上這是合理的啦這個有補貼這個車廂的一個改進我相信這個絕對是正向合理啦"},{"start":14168.544,"end":14190.817,"text":"OK 那我想跟委員說明一下委員剛才提到的那樣的一個補貼的機制或獎勵的機制等等的我們對外也說明會在三個月內提出相關的一個配套措施我想在那個方案裡頭我們一併來說說好 那我尊重你的時間那再來就是軍人登機禮遇的這件事情那國防部今天在場的長官要不要一起出來"},{"start":14193.288,"end":14223.028,"text":"當然在昨天的時候那國民黨跟民眾黨大家通過這個不管是志願役或義務役那在這個包括親自待遇的部分那都能夠有一個保障那相信這個對於目前辛苦的甚至榮譽的我們的現役軍人包括義務役他也都是一個很好的一個一個一個鼓勵啦因為他們確實是為國辛勞那在交通部以及國防部"},{"start":14223.769,"end":14238.303,"text":"在昨天要通過之前也趕快開了一個記者會有提到的軍人登基榮譽的措施本席也同樣認為我們尊重軍人 榮耀軍人都是一個很正確的事情必須讓他們保家衛國"},{"start":14239.384,"end":14255.045,"text":"但是在這個目前來講他在現役捐援的部分能夠做一個登機禮遇的部分他只有針對國際線那我以前在當兵的時候在服役那時候是海龍蛙兵但是我剛好做參議啊做差架所以說"},{"start":14255.746,"end":14280.214,"text":"我知道說在外島的部隊的阿兵哥其實他們在國內線的時候他們是不是能夠有這樣子的榮譽對他們鼓勵太陽他們需求比較大並不是每一個現役軍人都有那麼充足的時間他還可以長飛國外啊可以自由行啊畢竟當很多的軍人他們其實雖然放假了之後能夠回家陪家人就已經不容易了那所以說還是要問一下"},{"start":14280.754,"end":14290.259,"text":"不管是交通部或是國防部的長官看這個國內線的話目前進展如何那才是實際上對軍人最直接的一個理喻"},{"start":14298.162,"end":14318.49,"text":"那我想跟委員說明一下有關那個軍人登機領域我的了解是應該是航空公司應該是國內線的航空公司主動提出來規劃的所以剛才委員特別提到是不是可以擴展到國內線等等的這個我想我們會轉達透過民航局轉達給國內的"},{"start":14321.611,"end":14347.773,"text":"相關的航空公司 看他們怎麼樣來做相關的規劃朝著委員的一個方向來努力好 沒關係 市長我不為難你那其實在這個部分 華民航局他很明確的說六家國際航空業者 如阿誠對國際線的部分還來協助這個軍人禮遇登機的部分那在這一個政策為何會如此來有這個措施跟禮遇那媒體報導也是 也直接指出的是由上到下"},{"start":14348.473,"end":14373.5,"text":"那由上到下在趕在昨天運會的那個通過軍人條例的時間點這個沒有關係只要能夠榮耀軍人我們都是樂觀其成但是如果說以民航局的話他也直接提到說這是針對國際線那所以國內線目前來講確實是沒有那所以本期在這裡還是要為我們軍人的需求啊為我們國軍弟兄還是要反映如果說在機會的這個登機啊禮遇的部分那國內線的話其實相對來講"},{"start":14374.48,"end":14390.92,"text":"他們也是更有需求而且包括離島的軍人他們更是會用得到那當然說機會一個蘿蔔一個坑啊大家也不會說造成任何說機會會去插隊的問題並不會那如果說要榮耀軍人來感恩我們軍人的一個付出那國內線的話其實確實是"},{"start":14393.823,"end":14422.364,"text":"更是需要的那所以本席在這裡還是請交通部也表達跟國防部還以及相關的我們的民航局還能夠針對國內線的部分還能夠有一些社會的回應或是進展那同樣的在退役軍演以及軍眷還在那天的記者會也提到說要做一個演繹那這個部分演繹有沒有會不會那也希望到時候再過一段時間本席會持續追蹤這個社會各界一個回應"},{"start":14423.857,"end":14451.799,"text":"建文會轉給民航局 請問國際航空公司來考量好 謝謝 那除了民航局之外國防部的態度我希望也有 OK 謝謝是是 好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝游浩委員的執行現在請王育明委員執行謝謝我們召委 有請我們次長好 陳次長"},{"start":14458.496,"end":14462.878,"text":"市長好市長我今天要跟你討論是高齡駕駛這個議題第一個問題就是當時在106年的時候你們讓年滿75歲以上的駕駛完全不用換照然後他可以繼續駕駛你知道嗎當時的75歲的這一群人他現在事隔8年最高年齡"},{"start":14482.236,"end":14511.345,"text":"最低年齡可能已經83歲了而這些人如果他現在還在開車他比你現行的75歲你還要要求他一定時間換照他是都不用的但是他適合嗎這個部分你們是獨露喔這個黑數完全沒有管但是100年你們去考察各國的時候高齡駕駛是全面列管為什麼台灣到現在我們還存在有83歲以上老人家他在駕駛但是交通部是完全不管他的也不用回來換照"},{"start":14513.703,"end":14533.054,"text":"你要不要管我想跟委員報告一下我們對於這個應該是106年開始實施的這當時的75歲以上的我們是採用動態管理的方式不是不管啦就是說當他有違規沒有動態管理啊你們那時候是有違規祭典才管啊但是他如果有一些差狀或是他已經不適合他可能常常有狀況他不見得違反你們的規則喔但是已經就是不適合"},{"start":14541.039,"end":14568.983,"text":"那這個你怎麼管是他有他有擦撞的話應該都有相關的肇事的一個記錄啊所以不一定肇事啊他可能是自己去去撞到那個路邊或什麼啊就是他沒有去你們的交通規則裡面是跟人家產生一些糾紛的時候你們才會把或是他失職的狀況那另外我的了解公路局他們也會對針對這一區所以好這個市長我要問的是你們這部分就打算繼續這樣子都不管是不是"},{"start":14570.969,"end":14586.862,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們從相關的一個數據你們就應該要比照你們現在的75歲嘛要求這一群人都已經到83歲如果你要繼續駕駛你要求他們必須回來啊你要檢測他的體能啊你現在的政策很矛盾的是你針對75歲"},{"start":14588.983,"end":14614.511,"text":"你把關這麼嚴格 現在還在開了83歲 你是完全沒有在管我覺得這是不對的 當時監察院也糾舉你們 你們這個其實是便宜行事就是擔心工作太多 所以才沒有去管所以這個部分 第一個我就講我的訴求 我要求應該是要管的要不然你在政策上 你自己說服不了自己 75歲了 你還要求他回來健檢做什麼"},{"start":14615.191,"end":14627.761,"text":"那這些已經高達高齡到83歲的什麼都不用做這個在政策上的不一致我要要求你們要徹底的檢討這個部分我希望次長你可以帶回去我認為這個是一個嚴肅的課題你不應該當時的一個"},{"start":14631.784,"end":14646.04,"text":"監察院也糾正你們 你們當時這樣的便宜形式 到現在還繼續讓這個漏洞沒有補起來 我覺得應該是要補起來是 我們把委員的意見帶回去 我們相關的如果有必要的話 提供相關的書面給委員"},{"start":14647.902,"end":14664.66,"text":"這個我要求一定是要管的第二個就是你們現在相關的配套現在還沒看到你剛剛特別提到說你們三個月之後要端出來我不知道端出什麼樣的方案喔那我就問你這幾項會不會在你的方案裡面第一個是自動緊急煞車系統"},{"start":14665.38,"end":14685.924,"text":"要去強制配備 應該要配備的部分目前包括日本 南韓 歐盟 美國他們其實通通都有在做一些相關的實施那這個有沒有在你們的方案之一有或沒有跟委員報告這是屬於新車的安全法規這我們已經納入法規的當然會做嘛UNECE的法規我們預計從幾年開始我們從應該是117年吧這麼久"},{"start":14691.325,"end":14703.989,"text":"因為那是小型車的新車啦所以117年以後全面也都會加裝這個AV出來的新車會採用既有形式的話是119年那現在既有的車輛你們會不會去要求"},{"start":14712.628,"end":14732.635,"text":"有些是可以改加裝的那加裝以後它因為牽涉到整個車輛系統的問題恐怕不改還好 改了可能會出問題這樣的一個技術有它一定這個部分我要求你們應該要去研議另外一個是OBD車載診斷系統這個部分在你們現在方案裡面有沒有日本有 南韓有"},{"start":14734.022,"end":14742.545,"text":"荷蘭也有歐盟也有在你們現在演繹的方案裡面有沒有這個要去配套的安裝系統有沒有"},{"start":14745.12,"end":14771.609,"text":"對 我們有相關的EDR的行車記錄系統一樣跟這個的它也可以發揮減速示警的效果就是到一些敏感區域它會去診斷 去記錄當時的相關的一個那你是診斷記錄啊 人家這個是提醒啊我們標榜我們AI 我們智慧國家但是在交通這一塊這麼的不智慧 這個是不行的我希望你們好好的去研議喔那我現在看起來對 我們了解一下"},{"start":14772.569,"end":14791.324,"text":"對你們現在研議的內容我覺得太空泛了而且這些真正人家其他國家做得好的部分都沒有上來另外一個就是危險駕駛的部分針對高風險有一些國家他會限制像我剛剛講的83歲以上如果他要開高速公路他要高速駕駛夜間駕駛"},{"start":14792.925,"end":14798.933,"text":"那這個部分適不適合有沒有配合他後面的那個整個身體健康的狀況的見解那像你可以看到美國人家是很細緻的就是他會去做這樣子的一個評估然後呢像這個南韓我覺得也做得很好"},{"start":14808.024,"end":14812.39,"text":"他會根據你這個個案他會去認為如果你年紀夠太大你就是社區駕駛就好但是不以夜間駕駛或是高速駕駛我覺得這些都是非常細膩的人家做的比我們好的部分這個次長我對你有信心我希望"},{"start":14824.307,"end":14849.123,"text":"這個你交通專業 這一些其他國家做得好的部分藉著這一次我們的高齡駕駛出現這麼多的狀況我覺得國家有責任 我們提出一個更好的政策更好的配套 然後來讓我們的這一些高齡者他們真的就是在國家的相關政策跟配套底下是安全的駕駛 那有一些該禁止的就是你的禁止是保護他的安全你們也應該要拿出你們的原則跟看法"},{"start":14851.684,"end":14878.863,"text":"最後再強調一次你們之前漏網之語現在已經高齡83歲以上的這一群人你們通通都沒有進一步的去管理這個部分我要求你們應該要重新就是去要求他們檢測然後真的83歲以上高齡還適合開車再讓他開而不是現在完全都不管以上謝謝謝謝委員的指教 謝謝謝謝王育民委員的執行現在請鄭天才委員執行"},{"start":14894.315,"end":14922.155,"text":"好 張偉 各位委員 有請次長好 陳次長還有台鐵公司的代理董事長好 吳政志委員好你好 大家辛苦了齁好這個0403地震之後已經很久很久了但是整個"},{"start":14923.919,"end":14929.265,"text":"台鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫目前進度怎麼樣"},{"start":14931.046,"end":14951.061,"text":"跟委員報告 剛剛講我們大概分幾個有短期的啦那我們針對一些的排水池有一些加大那我們做一些告警的設施還有包括一個組的設施這邊都在做那另外在畫面上所講的是屬於我們的中期的部分64.1億這個計畫是目前我們這個計畫已經包到部裡面去"},{"start":14956.96,"end":14964.625,"text":"我們會來加速相關的一個處理這個6月4號這個台鐵公司有含附在6月4號之後我也質詢過部長"},{"start":14981.823,"end":15004.798,"text":"這個交通部在5月1號審查之後這個台鐵公司也很快的就把這個公文送到交通部了現在到底發文了沒有公文有人再確認一下因為這個文我剛才跟同仁討論一下這個文我們已經抱怨了已經抱怨了這個就是"},{"start":15008.109,"end":15020.706,"text":"也請這個交通部這邊 次長轉達給部長能夠親自跟院長趕快來核定好 接下來這個台鐵的那個帳價"},{"start":15024.97,"end":15029.173,"text":"2月5號公告台北到花蓮調漲32.51%高雄到台東調漲34.41%那台北到台東的票價自強號要高達935而這個花東沒有高鐵的選擇"},{"start":15049.777,"end":15073.574,"text":"公路也常常中斷因為這個蘇蛙公路因為0403的地震的關係常常中斷都是需要沒有其他的替代的替代的一個方案所以本席也一再的質詢交通部也質詢過五次長也質詢過部長就希望不要調帳質詢過很多次"},{"start":15077.942,"end":15103.563,"text":"總共從3月5號就開始質詢3月5號、4月7號、4月9號、4月14號、4月30號、5月15號但是這個交通部行政院還是做了這個所謂的調帳然後做了一些優惠而這個優惠對我們來說尤其是你要必須要幾點點數要有會員"},{"start":15106.924,"end":15130.167,"text":"因為以前鄉親從來不加入會員的很少你們可以調查有加入會員的很少很少所以這個部分就等於是沒有什麼實益現在才開始要加入會員實益非常有限而且你們的規定只有花東戶籍在花蓮台東的"},{"start":15132.314,"end":15160.781,"text":"跟過去你們那個花東實名制那個部分的UV的可以附集在花東的可以那現在都沒有了現在只能涉及在花蓮跟台東是本席也發文給台鐵第一個UV的不管他他會在西部工作就寫啊對不對然後還有他的鄉親他的配偶"},{"start":15162.301,"end":15187.77,"text":"還有在花蓮台東就學的學生這些都給他既然我們達不到不漲價最起碼優惠會員的部分擴大而經費來源我一再的講就是花東基金沒有要台鐵去承擔"},{"start":15191.256,"end":15200.782,"text":"你們也不應該自己承擔這個優惠政府的要優惠那就有花東基金你們有去協調國發會嗎跟我們報告因為"},{"start":15206.277,"end":15223.456,"text":"花崗基律的事情,這個是全責在行政院,當然我們會盡力來爭取剛剛提到UV這個事情,我想跟委員報告因為事實上以我來講,我的是P開頭P開頭我現在都住台北,我也沒有住雲林"},{"start":15224.693,"end":15250.795,"text":"所以如果說營林裡面有什麼優惠你說要給我 我覺得我會拿得不太好意思我們真的是希望給當地的就是你在那邊有居住的行為的我們這樣子比較合理啦因為畢竟它是對外的一個交通我來說齁我來說這個 這個不是我開創的花東那個台鐵過去那個買票的實名制"},{"start":15251.994,"end":15268.337,"text":"就是這樣啊對不對是針對你在UV你但是你只是針對你要去台東去花蓮的時候才有這個所以這個部分而且給你沒有要你去虧錢"},{"start":15269.983,"end":15293.068,"text":"去跟花東基金去協調去申請所以既然是花東基金那你就把它擴大包括在花蓮台東的就學的學生好不好來研究謝謝好謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員的執行現在請陳俊宇委員執行"},{"start":15305.043,"end":15331.628,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請陳政次及吳政次好 兩位政次市長午安委員午安市長那個高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分現在目前已經進入這個二階環評的最後的階段那我們也期待說最快的期程有可能在8月"},{"start":15332.408,"end":15350.477,"text":"會有一個這個最後的結果看能不能順利在年底進入綜合規劃對這是我們希望的那現在就是宜蘭這個包括縣政府也有提出一個構想就是鐵路跟高鐵共構的這個想法那"},{"start":15351.437,"end":15369.471,"text":"對於這個部分可以減少土地徵收的經費也可以減少農地破損的原因我想請教次長,針對這個部分可行性為何?我跟委員報告,這兩個的進入目前是不一樣的"},{"start":15370.592,"end":15393.548,"text":"如果說兩個要把它放在一起,我認為宜蘭高架的計畫進度會受到嚴重影響因為現在這個高鐵部分現在還在做專業小組的審查,上一次第一次去的時候委員有參加,很熱心參加第二次現在等著環境部來安排,因為我們做一些修正來做一個說明"},{"start":15394.295,"end":15411.045,"text":"那宜蘭高鐵部分這個環評部分就沒有問題如果說還在等他兩個路廊共過的話那整個的環評我看整個都集成會往後延一定往後延絕對往後延而且延的時間可能會不少好"},{"start":15411.877,"end":15431.762,"text":"那這個高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分,它所通行的這個路廊會經過許多的這些農地嗎?是也會有這個進縣建的相關的問題,那對於這個進縣建還有農地對於農民徵收的這個權益,我們有沒有什麼基本的保障的想法?"},{"start":15432.102,"end":15448.048,"text":"金縣政府我想跟委員報告,金縣其實不是所謂金縣,只是說他來申請我們希望不要影響到高鐵結構的安全而已一般大概都會準,沒有問題,只是要考慮到它之間的關係,這個金縣我想不是問題"},{"start":15448.968,"end":15465.191,"text":"那至於徵收部分我當然會依照現在的目前一些徵收的相關規定我們會給予優惠的然後又包括他如果說自動拆遷之類的話我們可以給他一些獎勵金這個我想我們會用最優惠的方式來辦理好那另外"},{"start":15466.352,"end":15478.225,"text":"現在鐵路高架的部分鐵路高架的部分已經從這個東山羅東一直到市城這邊了嘛市城沒有對於市城開始那裡對 就是鐵路高架就是到那邊那"},{"start":15483.771,"end":15500.204,"text":"從市城到礁溪頭城的部分我們有沒有一個規劃期程就是未來他這個鐵路高架的這個基層會是在落在什麼時候如果依照目前他鐵路高架就立體化的部分的話大概是有地方政府要提出來他的需求"},{"start":15501.265,"end":15518.406,"text":"然後進行可行性 那我們來進行審議如果有它的必要性 它的急迫性這些還財務可行 我想我們這個會來支持好 鐵路高架對於宜蘭縣縫合這個東西向的這個經濟發展是非常重要的那我也期待說這個工程後續"},{"start":15519.967,"end":15536.613,"text":"我們現在所啟動的這15.8公里以外後續的這個交息跟投診的部分我們也可以盡快來來完成那當然這個也需要縣政府積極來配合是好那另外有一條這個橋是東山河的宜東橋在東山河的宜東橋"},{"start":15540.885,"end":15555.767,"text":"宜東橋的部分在去年我們公路局9月27的時候已經審核通過了然後那到現在都沒有結果我想請教局長那針對宜東橋的後續的期程我們有沒有一個安排的一個"},{"start":15556.307,"end":15573.466,"text":"跟委員報告9月多那個去年9月多那個是大概是初步的一個就是說搜查不過我們後來到去年年底我們有安排現勘因為它宜東橋確實就像委員那個照片說的它的橋面的寬度不夠然後我們還要抬高"},{"start":15573.886,"end":15588.003,"text":"因為這個然後而且他還要做這個兩端的引導所以大概我們有給那個就是縣府一些意見那縣府大概做了修正經過我們東分局有給他協助所以這個今年有報到我們這邊我們會盡速再來做一個審查"},{"start":15591.497,"end":15616.69,"text":"因為這個橋已經45年了這個安全問題我相信大家都很擔心那除了橋面不夠寬那裡面的橋墩會影響到水流我相信這是公法上我們可以看得出來所以我也希望說這個橋能夠盡快來決定說什麼時候要改建讓民眾有一個更加安全的一個通行路那另外主席再借一分鐘"},{"start":15617.54,"end":15637.558,"text":"那這個62線從瑞濱要延伸到宜蘭的部分,那我們分別在去年的8月跟12月交通部跟國發會已經呈報行政院了那對於這個可行性評估的部分,我們後續時間大概還有多久的時間可以正式來完成"},{"start":15639.978,"end":15668.124,"text":"可行性的部分報院院交給國發會國發會他會商就是院內包括這個財政主計還有相關的工程單位所以大概就是說這個國發會有會診院的一個各單位的意見然後有在一個依照行政程序也有在院裡面在處理所以我想這個部分只要院核定我們可行性研究的話我們綜合規劃跟環境影響評估我們就開展"},{"start":15668.629,"end":15688.81,"text":"好那這部分還是拜託我們局長跟次長還有我們部內所有的同仁能夠盡快的來核定早日讓他進入這個綜合規劃那宜蘭對外的聯絡道路我相信不是這個宜花東的人這個引頸期盼而已更是全台灣喜愛旅遊的民眾"},{"start":15690.131,"end":15714.231,"text":"最大的希望因為你現在要去伊華東你不管是去跟回的時候常常會碰到這種交通的瓶頸所以我拜託我們交通部就是針對這個部分應該要積極的來辦理不管是鐵道的部分或是公路系統的改善讓這個宜蘭對外的這個交通可以盡快的這種視通巴打好 以上謝謝兩位次長及我們的局長好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":15715.452,"end":15734.184,"text":"好 謝謝陳敬宇委員的執行現在請樓庭偉委員執行好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 陳正思還有林福山師長林師長"},{"start":15738.293,"end":15760.389,"text":"好 次長好 我們繼續持續面對問題 解決問題啦這個問題從3月27召開記者會 5月21來這邊問部長一直到今天 可惜今天部長沒來 但我相信陳世凱部長是個願意面對問題 解決問題的人但是不曉得部長對於升降尾門 警示燈跟車尾騎的一個推動有多少魄力"},{"start":15761.129,"end":15790.565,"text":"我們講了很久了到底是要推還是不推市長你知道現在有多少輛裝有升降尾門的車輛嗎有嗎跟委員報告一下那個因為大小貨車大概這個17、8萬輛17、8萬輛那有裝升降尾門的那個數字我們現在特別做部長說回去會研議喔5月21到現在6月11了3週了請問一下升降尾門警示燈跟車尾期研理的結果如何"},{"start":15791.27,"end":15806.166,"text":"根文報告我這禮拜有開過會然後呢大概就是說幾個課題我已經把它做一個預計新車什麼時候開始安裝根文報告是不是在給我們認識因為這個要訂基準出來那我問你嘛新車在115年1月1號安裝有沒有困難我們朝這個目標來做努力"},{"start":15812.023,"end":15833.935,"text":"來努力可以承諾嗎我跟委員報告一下我們朝這個目標來做努力因為這個東西這個基準出來之後牽涉到那個單品新車基本上加快速度去安裝應該困難度比較少我跟委員報告這應該沒問題但是那個標準要先出來啦當然我知道要有標準嘛那在舊車呢舊車的這個部分我想說基準出來之後我們再來這個輔導"},{"start":15840.411,"end":15848.142,"text":"當然舊車要輔導啦我們也希望給予一些寬限期那我們建議115年6月以後全面安裝你覺得有困難嗎"},{"start":15849.666,"end":15872.283,"text":"這個可能我跟文報告這個可能在討論我的認同是可以給予寬限期啦但是你要怎麼樣去加強輔導你要有配套啊那你要告訴我說你要116年我也不是說鐵板一塊溝通產業那你要怎麼具體的方案去做溝通去做配套你要讓我知道啊"},{"start":15872.923,"end":15894.291,"text":"我想說我們有具體規劃成果就跟委員報告我另外跟委員報告一下那個使用中車輛的一個這個部分當然標準出來之後那使用中車輛如何加裝那這個剛剛講的一個部分使用中車輛高檔這個20萬輛這樣的東西要回去安裝如何安裝在哪邊安裝這個東西都還有一些量的課題這個東西因為我們好"},{"start":15895.991,"end":15908.664,"text":"這個我都可以體諒但是我要講的是我們要多少人的傷亡才能夠換回這件事情被重視升降尾門不是我在那邊吵那邊鬧是我看到這麼多人死亡市長你知道有人傷亡嗎"},{"start":15912.372,"end":15929.267,"text":"我瞭解 瞭解所以這個已經造成死亡的一個案例我想為了三峽事件我們也積極的在補破網希望能夠做一個變革但是在深巷尾門也有人死亡那這個部分上我們也應該好好關切可以認同嗎 市長"},{"start":15929.787,"end":15954.67,"text":"是 我想我們很感佩委員對這個議題的一個重視安全是沒辦法打折扣但是實務上要去安裝的時候 還有實務上的一個困難那這部分就容許我們在相關後續配套措施因為已經有拖一段時間了啦在去年的六月跟九月 車安中心就已經討論過了今年三月又討論一次結果還是沒有下文 我想市長很清楚"},{"start":15956.059,"end":15983.194,"text":"這個部分是不是東西我跟文報告一下不是沒有下文因為第一個部分安裝我們家裝警示燈或這個東西去查了都沒有國際的標準那這個好不容易說德國有一個這個標準可以來援引來參考那這個要安裝就必須要比如說這個警示燈他的照度灰度然後國內有沒有這樣子的證據都必須要去去確認等等不然光有基準出來國內沒有這種燈光做安裝的話那想安裝這個"},{"start":15984.775,"end":16005.775,"text":"好啦 你有找到一些困境可是我要講的是車安中心的其他議題去年12月25日今年3月27日 只開兩次會今年5月中就有7項結果更顯得升降為門警示燈 車尾騎推動我希望你們能夠放在心上好 那老師以納入研議啊 相關討論啊這個藉口我覺得 次長"},{"start":16006.435,"end":16019.23,"text":"這樣子我認為是不及格我還是要說的不要讓50件100件才要喚起我們的重視而是看到問題就趕快解決問題那所以這個到底要多久你總要有個期程吧市長市長"},{"start":16021.333,"end":16050.251,"text":"跟我們報告有關標準的部分是不是容許這個兩個月內我們已經這個完成這個訂定兩個月內訂定出標準基準基準 對然後你要再怎麼去配套去溝通具體的去做輔導然後再來訂出更具體的一個實施時間是這樣可以吧可以兩個月內至少你車安還有內部你要有一個基準可以吧是拜託越快越好每一天都可能造成傷亡我們這個中照委員這個部分加速來辦理"},{"start":16050.911,"end":16058.215,"text":"好 盡快辦理 謝謝謝謝羅廷偉委員的執行現在請李昆成委員執行好 謝謝主席我們請次長 陳次長好 陳次長"},{"start":16077.494,"end":16098.78,"text":"市長好 今天是要討論這個道路交通管理處罰條例那本席也有提案 不論今天是詢答那當初我提案是針對這個無照駕駛但是現在呢 除了這個無照駕駛的問題之外呢還有高齡駕駛的問題 甚至有兩個合在一起的問題那可是行政院好像交通部版本還沒有送過來嘛 對不對有關這個無照駕駛還有這個高齡駕駛的部分"},{"start":16103.082,"end":16116.895,"text":"這個條文我們正又再做稍微的一個修正然後我們會在六月底送到行政院去六月底好那我先講這個無照駕駛好了無照駕駛我本來我的提案就是只有這個加重罰則但是後來發現說這個不曉得這個為什麼這個事件"},{"start":16121.258,"end":16149.446,"text":"呃 層出不窮不知道是之前媒體沒有去關注到還是怎麼樣因為三峽那件事情之後大家才注意到說無照駕駛 高齡駕駛的事情那所以說我按照齁 這個陳部長他所講的齁你們這個這個處罰條例齁將會說這個將這個無照駕駛比照酒駕當場吊扣車輛及牌照那車主連帶重罰而且累犯罰款無上限大概是這個方向嗎"},{"start":16151.894,"end":16168.621,"text":"這個方向在做處理好這個方向在做處理所以我剛剛所講的就是說如果他這一個是無照的話被抓到了當場就吊扣車輛還有牌照車輛我們會疑似保管然後吊扣牌照吊扣牌照那這個罰款呢"},{"start":16171.569,"end":16186.085,"text":"我們會規劃分它是無照機車或汽車有不同的罰款額度然後呢這個罰款沒有上限然後接下來是累犯設計上就是跟酒駕一樣第一次的話就是按照剛才講的這個"},{"start":16189.809,"end":16209.249,"text":"氣機車分開接下來累犯第二次會有給他一個額度然後第三次以上的以後就是一直加所謂加是把第一次第二次再加第三次然後如果你第四次就1234就一直這樣往下加所以叫做罰款沒有上限以上好那這是屬於這個無照駕駛部分那還有要補充說明的嗎"},{"start":16212.236,"end":16240.314,"text":"剛才也特別提到 原則上就是駕駛跟車輛是一併做處理的啦所以剛才講到駕照 如果你是無照駕駛的時候滑環以外 無上限以外那另外會對於你無照的情節來做這個吊扣駕照或者是吊銷駕照的一個處理那你那一台這個無照駕駛開的車子剛才有講到當場一致保管以後就會有吊扣那吊扣也會有期限的不同"},{"start":16241.054,"end":16267.296,"text":"那如果你這個汽車駕駛人你去開的這部車不是你本人的話那一樣相關的這個汽車所有人該要做的處罰我們一併罰這樣那跟那個行為人是同樣的嗎行為人同樣當然就是一套的也就是說有關汽車跟不同一個人他相關的一個處罰其實是會是一樣的好那這是無照駕駛的部分那高齡駕駛的部分咧"},{"start":16268.68,"end":16284.438,"text":"高齡駕駛的部分原則上部長有特別提到我們原則上在未來的三個月內會提出相關的一個配套的一個措施那相關的一個方向不外乎就是提升高齡駕駛的一個安全以這樣的一個觀點去研理後續的一個規劃"},{"start":16285.239,"end":16310.315,"text":"那這裡頭會去希望提高這個高齡駕駛人的這個危險感知或這個相關安全的知識對法規的了解所以它會有一個相關的一個講習那另外我們會跟這個駕駛會跟醫療資會跟這個這個醫生或醫學會或是其他學者我們會組成一個交通部有一個駕駛醫療諮詢委員會我們會去對於認知"},{"start":16314.297,"end":16337.174,"text":"功能的相關的如何更精進會去討論那第三個部分就是大家經常提到的如果是高風險的這個駕駛人我們如何認定如何判定然後如何來換照如何來限制他駕車等等的一個配套那當然還有特別提到說是不是有要安裝其他的一個設備我想這個我們都一併再考量那換照年齡就是確定從75歲下修到70歲"},{"start":16338.702,"end":16356.432,"text":"原則上這個大家對於這個年齡的問題都持續在關注上那這部分我們會聽聽看大家的意見來做處理那原則上是以高風險的駕駛人來做處理好那所以這個都是我關於無照跟高齡駕駛都是六月份會送出來"},{"start":16359.031,"end":16375.968,"text":"是有關無照駕駛的處罰條例的修正條文那高齡的話我們大概8月底前會提出來好 那最後一個問題現在有關這個微型電動二輪車的這一個駕照的這個制度那請問一下你們現在對於這個微型電動二輪車有在做管理嗎"},{"start":16379.059,"end":16394.831,"text":"微型電動二輪車的話不管是從登記領牌那個或者是保險我們大概都有一系列的的管理的規定那在這裡頭我剛才我也特別說明就是有關駕照的話是跟現行的汽機車的管理上是有缺這個"},{"start":16395.672,"end":16407.258,"text":"那這部分的我們後續會去跟教育部或相關單位去研究或地方政府去研究如何來對去騎乘微型電動二輪車的這個駕駛朋友來做一些相關的講習或訓練現在是"},{"start":16411.67,"end":16427.295,"text":"您滿14歲國中學生免訓練無駕駛就可以騎微型電動二輪車因為現行對於微型電動二輪車是把它定位為慢車那慢車就是這樣的跟腳踏車一樣所以是沒有駕照的所以這部分你們要怎麼去做修正"},{"start":16427.435,"end":16451.669,"text":"所以這部分加上我剛才講對這部分我們會去跟相關單位來討論如何讓這個訓練落實在那裡頭譬如說學生跟學校或跟教育單位或是你賣車的人對賣出去的車子如何讓這個車輛所有人能夠有一些相關的訓練那所以原則上還是可以騎只是說你們多了教育訓練這樣子嗎是是是"},{"start":16454.031,"end":16476.012,"text":"這樣子蠻奇怪的啦就是那至於說是不是因為他是慢車啦是是是我覺得再跟你們討論一下因為這個衍生還蠻多問題的好不好時間有限謝謝主席謝謝市長謝謝謝謝李坤城委員的執行鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請劉錫廷委員執行"},{"start":16483.548,"end":16486.052,"text":"謝謝主席 次長有請好 陳次長喂"},{"start":16492.668,"end":16518.353,"text":"市長 午安我們今天討論盜交管理處罰條例這個稍早本期在做提案說明的時候其實有談有關於噪音車的問題那我先請教一下交通部自從2025年我們在改裝排氣管這樣的一個認證制度正式上路之後現在抓到了多少的違規案件那請問你們這邊跟環境部這邊有沒有做統整這樣子的一個制度上路之後改裝排氣管噪音車擾民的狀況有沒有減少"},{"start":16523.598,"end":16532.682,"text":"如果數字的麻煩你們說明一下好不好來 陳記者就是目前舉發這個違規有兩萬多件兩萬八千多件這兩萬八千多件是"},{"start":16541.269,"end":16558.192,"text":"是各類的設備的缺失的違規排氣管 我問的是排氣管 噪音車嘛我們今天討論噪音車的問題是不是因為排氣管的那個部分我想我們還要再做一個還要有細部數據對 因為它那個條款裡面有包括好幾類設備"},{"start":16559.273,"end":16580.376,"text":"來這樣子好了 這個今年是2025嘛2024因為去年今年新制舊制上路之前差別有沒有出來這是本席要非常關心的因為大家都非常討厭噪音車半夜擾民的一個狀況那大家都希望不管是中央還是地方都可以來針對這個東西來做源頭的取締跟查緝嘛那你講今年有兩萬八千件但不全是排氣管嘛那是所有的改裝類型嘛"},{"start":16581.477,"end":16598.429,"text":"那這裡面排氣管有多少同樣在去年的時候排氣管的改裝類型有多少請你會後幫我整理資料好不好我們作為一個修法一個參考那提案的部分其實我們剛剛都已經說得非常清楚了這個罰則的部分要往上加嘛第二個檢驗驗車的費用當然是要自行負擔我們就把明文入法"},{"start":16598.849,"end":16626.611,"text":"這我看你們交通部的回覆基本上就是尊重審查結果那我們到達法條審查的時候我們再來做討論那今天另外一個一點點時間我們還是要請教一下這我們長期關心大眾運輸的一個問題這一段時間這個今年開始我們編列補助這個公路客運業者的預算這去年是16億嘛對不對今年是24億大概有一個比較顯著的一個增加這本來本期就非常支持我們一向都非常支持大眾運輸我還嫌你增加的不夠但問題是好像"},{"start":16627.572,"end":16656.126,"text":"上路起來這個結果還是蠻糟糕的像本溪選區南崁這個地方前幾天還是出現了這個因為一個司機感冒請假拖班拖三班那所有這個上班族通勤族大排長龍卡在那邊上不了車叫苦連天那這樣一個狀況顯然沒有改善那每次我們去詢問客運業者他還是這樣講我的司機還是找不到人那我請問你你增加補助之後針對客運業者的這個司機的缺額的問題有沒有顯著的改善"},{"start":16657.096,"end":16660.063,"text":"你的這個相關的一些數據能不能提供來請回答"},{"start":16662.736,"end":16687.325,"text":"數據我們會提供啦因為對於就是說各客運業者缺員的這個部分其實公路局都有相關的一個協助跟業者一起招募啦那對於就是說他招募的時候相關譬如說這一個訓練費用或者是在訓練期間的生活津貼其實我們都有那從這個去年到現在我記得應該是我們招募應該有多大概有一千位"},{"start":16688.165,"end":16704.483,"text":"這一個全國的這個駕駛不過就是因為他也是分到這一個各個縣市包括這一個這個客運業者或市區公車的業者那這個部分我想委員所提到那個案例我們也了解那確實那個業者他因為我們去查他也說是這個駕駛這個臨時這個身體有狀況這樣子案例其實多不勝數"},{"start":16710.869,"end":16737.181,"text":"這樣子我們還是用通盤的角度來看這個事就是說你既然有所謂的大客車駕駛擴大徵才獎勵就業方案對不對那推動以來你招募到多少心血人力缺口還有多少針對這個缺口你的配套措施是什麼這三個問題你一樣會後好不好你把這三個整理好來整理給本席來做後續的參考我可以先提供給委員一個數據好請從那個開始擴大徵才以來大概有3800多人的透過這樣方式來招募相關的駕駛人"},{"start":16738.081,"end":16761.657,"text":"那至於詳細的數字我想公路局會會後再問我關鍵要問的是缺口還有多少因為顯然你增加禁用駕駛之後我班次沒有增加我只是本來要裁測要收班的班次我保留了嘛因為我先補了一批人進來但是大家期待不只是看到保留嘛還是在上下班特別亮眼的時間能夠增加班次然後有效輸運甚至導引大家從機車機車改做大眾運輸這才是大家想要看到的交通模式嘛"},{"start":16761.877,"end":16782.859,"text":"好 所以一定還有缺口缺口是多少 這你會有提供本期給一個建議除了說你有些補助尤其是職前訓練的部分大概花了比較多的心力之外但改善勞動環境是很重要的就很多客運業者雖然薪水電得蠻高的可是可能是什麼長途津貼啦加班費啦這些各式各樣的東西加起來的那這個加起來的也很容易被扣掉你就遲到等等你就罰就扣"},{"start":16783.88,"end":16802.294,"text":"就一來一往 朝三暮四待遇還是不好所以我是建議交通部這邊針對客運業者應該給予的薪資項目底薪要高一點嘛 對不對津貼什麼的比例來做一下調整針對這樣子的一個薪資結構然後讓勞動環境的改善能夠有一套設算標準這個能不能請交通部先來開始來做一下研議"},{"start":16804.171,"end":16826.989,"text":"我們來做長時間的追蹤跟研討我們都希望客運的資源不只要加大投入而且要有效的投入 可以嗎好 謝謝謝謝劉喜廷委員的執行林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員執行"},{"start":16836.526,"end":16838.687,"text":"無照重大事故頻傳 我們要如何有效的來"},{"start":16854.212,"end":16879.062,"text":"遏制 這是我們討論的一個重點那所以呢 要請教 因為目前我們看到有衝撞騎樓 也有撞飛行人甚至爆衝 爆衝連環追撞那在這樣的情況之下 造成了很多的死傷那根據統計 台灣每一年大概有三四十萬件的事故 當然其中有五萬件是無照架式"},{"start":16879.862,"end":16895.181,"text":"換句話說 照總數的大概六分之一到七分之一左右的這個層數那死傷的人 死亡的人員有六百多人六萬多人受傷是酒駕釀成死傷的多少倍 六倍"},{"start":16896.902,"end":16920.942,"text":"所以呢 這個無照事故呢 不僅它是多 而且在增加我沒有看到日本 美國 新加坡他們在無照駕駛的部分呢 除了行政法之外 他有刑法他有刑法 他並且還有設計扣車甚至取消駕駛的資格 那麼也這個同層的人呢 那也做處分 也做處分"},{"start":16922.383,"end":16932.368,"text":"當然我們不是說一定要通通都學別人但是學界認為台灣無照駕駛的成本過低"},{"start":16933.376,"end":16960.572,"text":"那政府應該要拿出方案所以我要請教部長次長最近在修法你們也提出修法修法你是說未來無照駕駛的部分懲處的部分要比照酒駕的方式來懲處這就第一個要加重滑軟而且累犯的部分呢滑軟的部分說是要無上限那也包括了當場吊扣車子"},{"start":16961.853,"end":16976.913,"text":"那也包括了車主連帶重罰等等的這些方向所以我要請教 目前你們的進度如何 到底你的細節是什麼 你的金額又是什麼 你預期的效果又是什麼 請做說明"},{"start":16978.49,"end":17001.909,"text":"我想跟委員做一個說明就是有關委員也了解說我們對於無照駕駛認為要比照酒駕來做處理其實就有幾個層面分開來就駕照的部分跟車輛的部分駕駛人部分跟車那駕駛人部分又會區分他是無照駕駛機車或者是汽車所以他本身無照駕駛的這個"},{"start":17003.53,"end":17031.209,"text":"現在在討論的就是無照駕駛的這個部分對 這個就會分開對 這個就會分開它的罰範會分開那完了以後呢 就會分開以後然後它以後又累範的時候它會累範會給它譬如說累範第二次它會有一個罰範的額度然後到了三次以上它就累加就是把第一次 第二次 第三次的罰範一起加進去如果第四次就一二三次一起加所以才會有講到說罰範無上限就是這樣的概念"},{"start":17033.53,"end":17051.702,"text":"所以你都要付出代價那這是駕照的部分那駕照的部分除了罰款以外還會做吊扣的處理吊扣駕照會依照你的勤節有一到兩年的兩到四年的甚至致人重傷或死亡的是屬於終身吊照的部分這是駕照的部分"},{"start":17052.122,"end":17072.244,"text":"那車輛的部分你看那部無照駕駛的車輛他就會當場一致保管一致保管的同時就是會當場一致保管對一致保管以後就會做吊扣駕照吊扣牌照的處理那也會依照他的次數第一次依照他的情節對三個月六個月到一年不等"},{"start":17072.805,"end":17093.494,"text":"那當然剛剛有特別提到車輛所有人不是駕駛人的時候他也要併罰相關的一個處罰也是連帶罰對連帶罰那有學者建議也就是說吊扣駕照仍然是無照駕駛因為這一塊很多有一些數字所以有學者認為必須納入刑法"},{"start":17094.455,"end":17109.592,"text":"那累犯更應該要有累犯你剛剛說的這個罰則才能夠抑制一些危險駕駛他就是怎麼樣圖一個僥倖的心態 賭一個不會被抓到的心態那我們政府的立場是如何呢"},{"start":17111.519,"end":17133.723,"text":"是為了要讓大家對於無照駕很正式的無照駕駛是在對於車輛或是行駛一個車輛自我一個責任很重要所以我們在這裡才會希望說他累罰而且無上限透過這個重罰來遏止那另外剛剛委員特別提到是不是要用刑罰的部分那個可能就是要請法務部看怎麼樣來做相關的考慮"},{"start":17133.843,"end":17163.026,"text":"要去研議啦 因為其他國家有那不一定我們都跟著人家一樣但是我們的這樣子的事件一直在增加這個是 對不起人民那我們要怎麼樣有制度有法條 然後有效的我想這是非常重要因為我們談到累犯的部分呢無照駕駛跟酒駕駛一樣的所以累犯的機率是非常的高我看到這個數字近三年來無照駕駛被抓到的數量"},{"start":17164.086,"end":17191.2,"text":"數字是18萬到20萬人次也就是說累犯就佔了將近三分之二就將近佔了三分之二所以對於要如何的遏止無照累犯本席認為應該要有所應對這個是非常的重要因為他佔了將近這個三分之二所以呢本席要在這邊也都提出金額的部分呢剛剛你沒回答本席"},{"start":17191.92,"end":17217.311,"text":"因為大家都提案那也就是說目前最高上限是罰的是兩萬四那也有人將本席所連署所提的是三萬六最高上限那其他的如果累翻的情況有甚至說希望到這個嚴重型態的到十萬那不知道行政部門你們到底到目前為止你的方向是如何呢"},{"start":17218.803,"end":17229.45,"text":"金額的部分原則上剛才委員特別提到的這個三萬六的這樣的一個罰網上線的這一部分呢其實我們都有朝這個方向在做規劃"},{"start":17230.373,"end":17250.934,"text":"那詳細的一個規劃的一個情形我們在六月底的時候會提出來六月底提出那方向也是朝三萬六為上限的這個方向對我們有不同的這個對等級嘛我就在上限到時候社會上就可以了解我們相關的一個第一個一定會結論就是說第一個一定會加重這個罰金"},{"start":17252.216,"end":17262.546,"text":"那委員也有提出的上限從兩萬四提升到三萬六你們也朝這個方向去延移然後在六月底的時候會正式跟社會大眾公告是是是好 謝謝"},{"start":17265.25,"end":17281.392,"text":"好謝謝楊從英委員的執行麥義貞委員 麥義貞委員 麥義貞委員不在現在本席執行來請兩位政次來請兩位政次來陳政次跟吳政次"},{"start":17291.213,"end":17314.43,"text":"好 這個因為本會委員都執行完畢所以我在主席台啊也特別來做一些簡單的一個執行說實在的對於高鐵的人事案我非常不滿我替你們打抱不平我跟你講實則啊比我們陳彥博"},{"start":17319.365,"end":17346.445,"text":"吳聖賢 林國賢資格都還不夠可是我也沒有辦法 你們很無奈啊為什麼無奈那上面怎麼要做的事情所以你們很無奈所以我是覺得啊 今天大家非常注意的就是死者那死者啊是用空降 我一向"},{"start":17347.679,"end":17365.397,"text":"不管當議員 不管當立委空降的人 我都非常反對為什麼 因為他不知道基層會影響士氣你最起碼的話 三位次長不管是哪一位"},{"start":17366.96,"end":17386.6,"text":"多有經過這些歷練以及對於交通的基本的ABC你們都寫有專長嘛像這個陳正式你都當過公務整個系統交通很清楚"},{"start":17388.15,"end":17410.478,"text":"吳政志你也當過鐵軌這整個都很內行那我也不曉得當然這是總統這是行政院長上面所要去做的所以這個就會給老百姓真的會給人家感覺到非常寒心因為交通外行"},{"start":17411.3,"end":17429.819,"text":"然後來領導內行這個是非常非常對台灣人民是非常不尊重的那我是覺得這樣啦因為有人在問啊 記者在問我的時候我已經講得很清楚交通外行"},{"start":17430.939,"end":17445.015,"text":"然後坐享其成還有酬庸任用這個也不要我講所以我還是要特別重點替三位政事打抱不平"},{"start":17446.415,"end":17469.78,"text":"拚到要拚死拚拚到要拚死在溝通裡面我才不相信你們比史澤還更糟糕我絕對不相信這一點我替你們打抱不平但是民意代表沒有決定錢啊但是你們不要反駁我對你們打抱不平只是要讓賴院長只是要讓卓院長賴總統知道這樣的話是影響士氣"},{"start":17476.682,"end":17503.142,"text":"誰幹都可以 問題就是外行酬庸這樣老百姓是不太諒解所以我在想大家都知道啊 史喆人是長得很英俊啊但是揍人處事是有問題的啊怎麼會怎麼會這個可樂不冰啊或者什麼薯條不軟啊等等這些還有霸凌知前科欸 拜託"},{"start":17504.443,"end":17528.966,"text":"他最清楚的 他可搞過勞保 搞過文化他有搞過交通一個嗎我們最起碼的話 我們都還做過交通委員會在你們身上寫了不少的交通的專業所以我還是老化一劑啦 還是老化一劑真的 替你們打抱不平 替你們打抱不平"},{"start":17530.168,"end":17544.683,"text":"另外一個問題我要請陳正士特別要注意國際駕照換照的問題是成為道安的漏洞這個要研究一下"},{"start":17546.184,"end":17557.955,"text":"林市長可能要了解一下國際換照成為道安的漏洞因為為什麼國外的技術來到這裡他國際駕照"},{"start":17561.118,"end":17586.774,"text":"等於是國際開車的水準所以這個部分我認為這個部分要拜託我們林司長這個要特別注意那另外一個就是因為我們政府都已經講了就是獨駕的問題重考的問題我必須要提醒我們陳正智跟林司長"},{"start":17588.086,"end":17603.074,"text":"沒有違憲啦人家大華觀也沒有說違憲啊該重考的就要重考該限制的就要限制那另外一個齁我還是要建議啦就是救護車跟行人徵道這個問題當然"},{"start":17606.869,"end":17629.803,"text":"這個行人跟車輛一定要離讓可是這裡法規是不足的喔也有一些行人他過馬路他認為我斑馬線優先但是他不會離讓救護車不會離讓警備車這個部分我們在規劃部分是不足的"},{"start":17630.763,"end":17650.664,"text":"要不要也要修法的部分去把它加強不要說我走斑馬線你警車來也是這樣你救護車來也是這樣因為行人優先所以他沒有想說搶救優先啊所以這個部分我還是要拜託師長"},{"start":17653.266,"end":17671.103,"text":"這個要稍微研究一下那另外一個可能最後我在這裡要特別提醒也就是家庭事故史上創新高的就是說實在的也就是寵物製造車輛的問題這個在法令上"},{"start":17674.861,"end":17691.382,"text":"也是沒有規範的喔也是沒有規範所以我要拜託這個政次兩位政次不管是跟你有關的或者這個林福山師長這個部分這個遺漏的法令該補的要補"},{"start":17693.344,"end":17711.864,"text":"遺漏的法運不管你用單行法規或者用行政命令或者來修法我想這些都叫做亡羊補牢的動作亡羊補牢的動作所以以上我提供這些給兩位政次還有我們那個林市長來做參考"},{"start":17713.345,"end":17735.857,"text":"好不好所以這個非常重要不足的部分拜託把它帶回去該補的還是要補好不好好謝謝委員所提供的意見我會後續納為研究參考好謝謝請回來鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在現在請林業勤委員執行"},{"start":17751.634,"end":17776.128,"text":"主席有請我們的次長陳正次委員好市長午安那今天我們的審查報交管理處罰條例主要是針對無照駕駛的問題這個議題我應該事實上是最早就在這邊提出來強力要求我們的交通部一定要"},{"start":17777.408,"end":17802.726,"text":"重視那因為我從過去跟專家學者的會議當中國內外的研究文獻都看到了這個問題的嚴重性也感謝交通部在我提出後持續延伸解決方案不過今天我還是有點希望部會可以留意的就是在此之前呢我就提醒過交通部上次諮詢高齡的議題目前到現在還是沒有收到您的任何報告"},{"start":17804.508,"end":17829.767,"text":"上次質疑的時候部長就已經答應我說兩週後要那上次要交的報告也就遲到了那現在依然是如此所以我這週是也就明天就要邀請跨部會的會議來討論此事還請我們次長這邊是不是務必要求業務單位可不可以不要遲交報告那迅速的能夠提供提交 謝謝"},{"start":17831.209,"end":17837.104,"text":"那接下來來講就是說上午照駕駛的這個三王你們自己"},{"start":17839.441,"end":17867.52,"text":"運營所也做過一些研究一個受傷181萬一個死亡1600萬所以如果事故成長將近22%的話年平均我們的社會成本將近千億那我們就來看就是說跟國際相比的話我們的一些法的規定就對違規則只是繳錢跟上課那課程內容還有待商榷可是相較於國外"},{"start":17868.885,"end":17884.925,"text":"不僅事上是將無照四維行事責任 而且更配合祭典跟同城者的連帶處罰強化他律的機制 我相信市長也相當清楚啦所以想問市長 你覺得怎麼樣是最有效的 怎麼樣處罰是最有效"},{"start":17887.704,"end":17916.133,"text":"我想委員特別提到的這些的做法其實在我們這一次處罰條例的修正尤其是有關無照的部分其實我們大概都朝這個方向來做當然這裡頭如果特別提到是不是有配合相關刑法的那是另外一個問題因為我們道路交通管理處罰條例並不是應該是行政法我們並沒有我們看日本跟新加坡"},{"start":17916.593,"end":17931.735,"text":"我要特別跟委員特別提到這是很多人經常會提到的因為我國的這個法律的體系裡頭行政法跟刑法是分開的那像日本的話就是行政刑法所以他你會看到他有刑法在裡面那美國的話他就本來就是在刑法在做處理"},{"start":17932.416,"end":17951.946,"text":"所以我覺得這個制度上也有所不同那原則上呢我們大概會跟法務部共同努力譬如說像那個這個酒駕的部分就有要185條我覺得無照駕駛比酒駕還更嚴重可是我們一直過去長期事實上是比較沒有關注"},{"start":17954.387,"end":17978.519,"text":"事實上酒駕防制跟國外政策的經驗都告訴我們如果能夠配合後車處罰的話就可以有效降低違規則對於道路交通安全的危害性也可以受到立即嚇阻的效用在所以除此之外交通部在思考無照駕駛的防制對策的時候也有一些有沒有去參考相關研究那你現在制定的相關政策又是依據什麼因為"},{"start":17980.02,"end":17987.882,"text":"前一陣子對外宣示的增加罰環那我不知道部會的依據又是什麼有沒有任何科學的一些根據所在"},{"start":17991.727,"end":18015.34,"text":"我想委員特別提到這個罰款其實罰款為什麼會有做這樣的一個處理剛才其實很多委員也大概都有質詢就是有關這個酒駕其實為什麼會這樣我們為什麼會提出說比照酒駕是因為我們看到它的危險的一個程度或者是違規的情勢其實是遠遠高於酒駕的所以"},{"start":18015.82,"end":18039.075,"text":"而且酒駕的話因為有那樣的一個罰環的一個設計所以我們可以發現它的違規的性質drop很多所以我們認為說在這個無照駕駛的部分如果能夠比照的話可以達到一定的一個效果所以採用這樣的方式我在現在針對無照駕駛當然有很多建議啦像罰環啦 公共運輸的普及補助駕訓教育 降低考照的年齡"},{"start":18039.975,"end":18067.486,"text":"可是我覺得很多的東西應該可能都要更慎重那我們再來看就是說今天舉例來講在駕訓的部分其實公路局也很認真的在推我知道也有搭配研究來驗證加強我們的政策的正當性可是政策很好可是沒有辦法普及我就不知道這個政策好為什麼沒辦法普及所以這樣這部分你們是不是遇到什麼障礙或者是一些困難"},{"start":18069.774,"end":18088.317,"text":"委員報告或許是我們還沒有把整個的這個有關機車的考照的未來幾年的改把這個納入這個訓練甚至入考的這整套的一個配套措施來跟社會大眾說說明或是向委員做說明原則上我們朝這個方向在做努力"},{"start":18088.797,"end":18116.182,"text":"我希望能夠普及因為既然效果好的話就要考慮那再來就是我提安駕的補助是因為國外已經實施多年一直都有一個不錯的效果在而這類考照前的教育訓練駕駛教育訓練也是推動GDL那個漸進式的駕照考照的一個基礎在我相信交通部也都知道如果我們在制度上能夠讓所有考照的學習者都有誘因願意去參與考照前的學習的話"},{"start":18117.142,"end":18123.27,"text":"那未來也有機制可以具體去提升我們的家訓班的教學品質跟量能才有辦法有效解決我們目前第一個是雞腿換照的問題 而且讓民眾可以重視我們駕照的取得跟駕駛能力的養成 而且GDL的這個"},{"start":18136.005,"end":18160.31,"text":"三階段的機制才能夠順利推動這畢竟是我們接下來要面對到的問題你沒有辦法馬上普及的話至少有些訓練在的話才可以讓我們下降有沒有譬如說配合學習駕照或者是這樣一直到完全駕駛這樣的一個考慮所以我認為這是未來考慮年齡下修就是考照年齡下修的大前提我希望能夠去做所以減少無照駕駛違規我主張"},{"start":18162.671,"end":18191.007,"text":"除了罰錢以外應該要有多元的配套的管理的措施那還有一些完善的資料的建置跟系統性的分析來建立科學化的那個公共政策的規劃平台還有未來我覺得還是要朝向是不是漸進式的考照制度真的要不要下修到16歲那你的配套的這些東西可能要做才有辦法達到那再麻煩次長這邊針對我三點主張 務必注意然後另外一個報告可能進述給我們"},{"start":18192.523,"end":18215.628,"text":"我們報告相關要給委員的高齡的這個報告我們會盡快來提送那至於委員特別提到健訊室的考照其實我們現在有關學習駕照啦或者是處理考令駕照的者給他不同的這樣的一個管理的制度都在實施那後委員提供的這樣的建議我們看後續如何融入在我們的規劃方案裡面好謝謝教務部辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":18216.408,"end":18230.143,"text":"好 謝謝林業勤委員的執行林思敏 林思敏 林思敏委員不在蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜委員不在現在請葉延之委員執行"},{"start":18244.97,"end":18266.245,"text":"主席好 麻煩請交通部次長好 陳正智喂 市長好 有關於使者要接高鐵的董事長現在應該是已經確定了嘛 對不對交通部有沒有已經正式對外宣布我想下午記者會會對外說明"},{"start":18269.247,"end":18290.296,"text":"那這個前兩天他要接董事長這個消息剛出來的時候一開始沒有人證實我就看到一篇媒體報導是政院知情人士就跳出來證實了可見他的消息很準確那他是講說為什麼要讓史澤來接高鐵董事長的原因是因為高鐵行銷上帶強化而這是史澤的強項"},{"start":18291.576,"end":18314.717,"text":"所以有使者來做高鐵加強行銷所以這是非常的適任我想來請教一下次長高鐵為什麼行銷上在強化高鐵現在的問題是什麼為什麼行銷上在強化我想委員那個因為是媒體上的一個報導是政院知情人士沒關係 那我問你沒關係 那我請教高鐵現在行銷需要強化嗎"},{"start":18319.225,"end":18332.461,"text":"我想每個這個營運單位運輸單位行銷都是持續的我覺得高鐵現在主要的問題是行銷不夠強嗎還是其實要改善其他地方高鐵現在主要問題是什麼"},{"start":18334.702,"end":18356.991,"text":"我覺得高鐵上現在整體的營運運量都屢創新高我覺得是應該是他現在正在做車輛購置上的一個問題市長就很了解狀況現在高鐵就是因為運量屢創新高平日的時候很滿的跟假日一樣假日很滿跟國定假日一樣所以應該是要"},{"start":18358.331,"end":18383.049,"text":"你要調度車輛你要 你現在你們不是也構置車輛說兩年後才會到嘛車輛構置上的對嘛 就要兩年後嘛所以現在要當董事長的人他要有運輸的專長嘛他知道怎麼樣安全而且讓這個車輛的在調度上面順利讓旅客在搭乘高鐵的時候可以更舒適這個才是現在高鐵的重點嘛然後結果你們正院人士講說行銷行銷是什麼意思行銷是"},{"start":18384.17,"end":18405.248,"text":"行銷就是要讓市場擴大啊等於意思是說高野現在市場不夠啦希望能夠再招攬更多的旅客讓運量再更提升這個是你們政院人士講使者來接這個理由啊那個次長你能夠接受嗎當然你講的是媒體報導啦我是說媒體報導這樣的一個知情人士說法你可以接受嗎"},{"start":18406.753,"end":18420.485,"text":"我還是重申剛才媒體上我是問你你認不認同這樣說法我要講的就是說剛才其實我也講過要經營一個這個公司其實它需要各個"},{"start":18423.307,"end":18446.601,"text":"各方面的這不管是人也好或者是專業也好來共同你去公司的營運所以剛才特別提到專業的這一部分不管車輛調度安全啦控管啦營運財務其實跟行銷也好都是需要一群人來幫忙的所以我覺得啦我的看法是這樣好那沒關係那我再來問你我再來問你啦那個知情人士說因為這個使者會溝通"},{"start":18450.023,"end":18467.258,"text":"那因為高鐵不管北延或南延啊都需要他運用這個地方政府的專長啊去跟地方政府溝通啊你認同這樣說法嗎我想問一下高鐵南延或北延是由高鐵董事長來決定嗎還是你們交通部決定交通部鐵道局"},{"start":18472.249,"end":18498.455,"text":"高鐵南延或是往宜蘭等等的當然是整個應該是我們鐵道局當然是鐵道局決定嘛而且地方政府的溝通我就舉一個例子像南延到屏東這件事情2019年當時的高雄市長韓國瑜他希望因為大家都知道南延有四個方案高雄方案左營方案還有另外兩個方案韓國瑜選的是高雄方案但是當時行政院長蘇貞昌認為要左營方案"},{"start":18499.508,"end":18526.425,"text":"也沒有要再跟地方政府溝通啊就是交通部說了算嘛行政院拍板嘛隔了幾年之後轉彎才變成高雄站嘛所以我講這件事情我只是這樣啦要用什麼人啊這個當然都是行政院的決定啦我想使者要接高鐵的董事長可能也不是次長您可以決定的啦我不知道誰決定可能因為今天部長不在但是每一次要用這個人都都出來講這些有的沒的"},{"start":18527.404,"end":18554.952,"text":"什麼什麼行銷專長啦高鐵行銷有待強化啦然後要運用他地方政府的經驗去跟地方政府溝通我覺得大家聽不下去啦然後我再那個趙偉再給我一點時間那個現在是因為史澤要來當高鐵董事長然後原本的高鐵董事長鄭光遠去接台鐵董事長鄭光遠接台鐵鄭光遠接高鐵董事長四個月而已嘛對吧"},{"start":18556.641,"end":18575.623,"text":"那請問一下 你現在是在高鐵四個月正準備大刀闊斧的時候不好意思喔 你去一下台鐵有人這樣子在安排人事的喔那真正鄭光遠 他才是交通專長嘛他是交通大學的博士嘛"},{"start":18577.365,"end":18587.753,"text":"你說如果真的要去調度車輛什麼之類的當然鄭光遠更具備這樣專長啊那我不知道說交通部現在把鄭光遠調到台鐵是要解決台鐵什麼問題"},{"start":18591.679,"end":18614.534,"text":"這一部分我還是回到因為剛才講到鄭董事長有其專業所以他其實到了這個以後界長台鐵公司也一定會發揮他的專業我們很期待整體台鐵因為公司化進入公司化以後有很多不管是制度典章啊或者相關業務的推展都需要這個這個這麼具有專業的人來領導所以我覺得他非常適當啊"},{"start":18617.856,"end":18644.174,"text":"那剛才特別提到那個石澤政委的部分我覺得剛才我也特別提到政委也有一定他的專業性那他就其專業來領導整個高鐵公司我覺得一定也是可以跟著融入整個市長特別注意一件事情請市長特別注意台鐵一件事情特別注意台鐵一件事情台鐵近半年吼吊車撞車的事故一直不斷發生這個你應該知道吧"},{"start":18645.578,"end":18649.275,"text":"你們可不可以去解決這個問題啊因為這個跟安全有關啊"},{"start":18650.563,"end":18678.071,"text":"所以你如果說要把那個鄭光遠董事長叫過去他們有特別的來列管有列管但是就是最近就一直在發生最近一直在發生啦好不好這個事情要特別特別注意一下啦好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝葉言之委員的執行現在登記執行委員經已發言完畢作以下決定一報告及詢問完畢"},{"start":18680.236,"end":18702.19,"text":"林俊炫委員、習新穎委員、麥義貞委員所提書面執行列入紀錄並刊登公報委員以執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部竟速以書面答覆"},{"start":18703.598,"end":18710.776,"text":"本日的會議做以下的決定討論事項個案經令定期繼續審查"},{"start":18713.737,"end":18733.572,"text":"所以也請我們交通部有關單位特別要跟提案修法的委員做充分溝通以利下次審查的時候會較為順利之進行所以本日會議結束 上會謝謝大家 謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":18746.128,"end":18747.197,"text":"来 来 来 来"}]}},{"id":"16749","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16749","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc622a2f89928e5b6699e01fa654b137938b19dddded0b194f74733074a6c0da115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會（事由：「法院組織法有關司法公開透明修正立法之探討」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-11T08:30:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:58:00+08:00","duration":16051,"影片長度":"04:27:31","委員發言時間":"08:30:29 - 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我要慢慢介紹一下慢慢來不及"},{"start":1907.267,"end":1920.727,"text":"第八位是我們台灣大學法律學院的柯克中柯教授教授好第九位是我們真理大學法律系吳景清系主任"},{"start":1924.129,"end":1930.231,"text":"現在先來高的我們待會有機會我們再一個一個來介紹再來介紹我們到場的委員是我們陳培宇委員接著我來介紹我們今天列席的政府機關代表我們司法院副秘書長王美英副秘書長還有"},{"start":1953.334,"end":1955.636,"text":"我們司法行政廳廳長吳祚成廳長"},{"start":1961.482,"end":1985.5,"text":"法務部政務次長徐徐翔徐次長檢察司司長張曉雯張司長檢察司主任檢察官范孟山主任檢察官還有其餘的機關代表我就不再逐一介紹了相如我們這個出席的名單並列入公報記錄"},{"start":1989.197,"end":1995.421,"text":"剛剛到場第十位的是我們紀凱峰律師事務所紀凱峰主持律師歡迎你我們現在請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":2006.431,"end":2025.541,"text":"法院組織法有關司法公開透明修正立法制探討公聽會討論提綱第一大點關於死刑判決評議部保存期限修正立法制探討其下一二三點請參閱會議書面資料第二大點關於司法公開透明相關立法修正立法制探討"},{"start":2027.162,"end":2034.871,"text":"1.進行裁判書公開、法庭錄音等措施,是否系司法公開、透明、有效之制度性落實。2."},{"start":2034.871,"end":2042.5,"text":"立法採行法庭活動公開播送之必要性。以下括弧一至括弧三之提綱及及各點提綱,請參閱會議書面資料。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2049.568,"end":2071.902,"text":"好 我們在 我就不另作引言的一個致詞我們現在來把今天的程序來做一個說明在邀請各位發言之前我們先就公聽會進行的程序來進行說明首先我們請學者專家先發言然後發言的順序我們依照簽到的先後的順序"},{"start":2072.762,"end":2092.247,"text":"那如果需要提前發言的請先來告知主席台我們會視情況來做一個調整那本院的委員按照登記的先後順序來做一個發言如果是陸續到場的話那我主席這邊我們就會來安排這個穿插那請委員來做一個發言"},{"start":2093.187,"end":2120.771,"text":"那最後我們再來請這個機關政府機關代表來發言針對學者專家跟委員的意見來加以回應與會者我們請到發言台這邊來做一個發言在主席右手邊是等一下我的右手這邊這個地方是學者專家列席的機關代表的發言台左邊就是管理叫委員的發言台"},{"start":2121.431,"end":2144.869,"text":"那由於那個公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界的一個意見所以每一位學者專家發言的時間我們原則上就八分鐘那必要的時候我們再給予延長兩分鐘那本院委員發言的時間因為其實我們發言的時間機會都非常多所以就五分鐘 五分鐘今天不用記錄 這剛才都是學者專家比較乖 比較乖"},{"start":2150.168,"end":2173.528,"text":"那另外呢 首先我就請我們學者專家來發言那即時發言名單 請大家詳盡我自己看就好了 你們看得到電腦裡面都有我們第一位 我們現在就來請社團法人台北市晚勤婦女協會 蘇小玲理事長"},{"start":2194.997,"end":2215.245,"text":"各位長官各位學者專家大家好我是台北市晚情婦女協會代表蘇小玲那我今天要說的這個主題就是反對開放家事事件審理直播守護關係中的弱勢者的尊嚴與隱私那以下呢就是有四點"},{"start":2225.171,"end":2243.898,"text":"意見就是第一是家事家事審理具高度的隱私公開直播會造成這個二次傷害那家庭是家庭家事法庭處理的其實不只是法律的事件但是其"},{"start":2245.078,"end":2261.92,"text":"極其脆弱的家庭關係與人際傷痕許多婦女是在忍耐多年家內不對等的權利甚至精神控制下才鼓起勇氣訴諸司法如果他們"},{"start":2262.941,"end":2284.899,"text":"必須在可能被公開播送的法庭中 揭露痛苦的經驗那對他們而言 是一種再次曝露 甚至羞辱 嚴重打擊其訴訟意願第二點是 雙方同意就可以直播 忽略了權力不對等與情緒勒索"},{"start":2286.857,"end":2313.994,"text":"我們關注到目前家事事件法第九條允許當事人同意可公開但在實務中這類的同意往往是被操控或壓迫的結果特別是在控制型關係中弱勢的一方可能在不敢不同意的情況下被迫讓步我們不能將這種形式的同意視為實質的自主"},{"start":2317.196,"end":2345.738,"text":"第三點直播可能引發網路暴力與媒體二次炒作即使法院嚴格把關直播內容一旦被片段擷取轉載或失控傳播可能成為網路輿論的對象形成公審對婦女與其家庭造成無可回復的社會汙名與心理創傷"},{"start":2347.523,"end":2376.094,"text":"第四點家庭法庭不是社會觀感秀而是而是應該以修復與保護為核心家庭的功能法庭的功能不應該只滿足社會透明的好奇心而是應該是保護關係中弱者的避風港我們贊成司法應該有公開的原則但這應透過"},{"start":2377.847,"end":2397.88,"text":"的裁判書透明審判機制監督等方式達成而不是犧牲當事人隱私來換取假性的公證最後我們呼籲立法院與司法院在推動法庭直播的同時應保留"},{"start":2399.468,"end":2423.845,"text":"家事案件的高度保密性並正視婦女與兒少在家庭關係中所處的不對等處境晚秦婦女協會將持續為此聲音發聲願與各界共同守護一個安全更有人性的司法環境謝謝大家"},{"start":2430.407,"end":2437.151,"text":"我們第二位我們就常在國際法律事務所的吳薇雅吳律師主席各位委員各位與會的專家學者各位先進還有各位司法院法務部以及各級政府部門的這個長官們大家早安"},{"start":2455.768,"end":2470.598,"text":"那在我是吳維雅常來國際法律事務所律師那在呃呈述我的意見之前我簡單介紹一下我的背景喔那我曾經是在這個檢方跟院方的時間長達有20年那一半的資歷是在檢方當檢察官另外一半"},{"start":2474.54,"end":2482.492,"text":"一半的資歷在院方當 從事審判工作那目前是職業律師也有很多的這個訴訟案件的經驗 職業經驗那對於這個議題也就是40審的法律直播很這個"},{"start":2491.404,"end":2505.272,"text":"比較特殊的經驗是站在這三個不同的職場領域上面我的立場都是一致的就是對於市、省、法院、法庭活動直播我個人目前是採取一個保留反對的態度"},{"start":2506.633,"end":2530.7,"text":"那我們可以看一下這一次在野黨提出來的法院組織法第九十條它是在關係文書裡面是說事實審的法庭活動直播是原則不公開播送 例外公開因為目前這些相關的配置規套其實在法條裡面是很概括我們是看不出來"},{"start":2531.88,"end":2546.051,"text":"但是我們可以看一下他的立法理由他說主要是要權衡要捍衛人民知的權利那我們知道說這個知的權利其實就是憲法上保障的言論自由的一環人民有獲知資訊的權利"},{"start":2548.593,"end":2563.017,"text":"但是呢在審判的這個法庭活動裡面我們仍然要兼顧很多其他的憲法上面保障的基本的這個價值也就是要公平審判同時要兼顧這些程序訴訟程序的參與者使用者的相關的權益那當然啊這個我們所謂的知的權利目的是在於說要有個公開透明防止濫權大家一起來監督這樣子的目的"},{"start":2577.281,"end":2581.045,"text":"好那我們回歸到比例原則要達成這樣的目的我們要採取什麼方法目前現階段的關於這個就是說透明監督防止濫權我們現有的方法就是有公開法庭公開審判甚至在比較這個敏感的矚目的案件裡面呢"},{"start":2597.64,"end":2604.542,"text":"法大的法庭不夠容納民眾很多法庭會採取一個延伸法庭也就是開一個小法庭用視訊現場的方式讓與會的旁聽者可以及時的來接收這些訊息並且我們有直接審理判決也是公開的全程錄音而且現在還有一個對律師很好的制度就是全程委外的轉譯所以我們不用擔心法庭的筆錄有任何的"},{"start":2625.589,"end":2652.42,"text":"可能不夠完足被扭曲這些呢還有國民法官其實這一些在在的都是在保障一個程序的透明公開可受監督那我們就要問說那現在這個版本新版本提出來說要公播直播改變了原先的方法採取一個更廣泛的方法這樣子的一個立法它有沒有就是一個這樣的方法它有沒有一個必要性以及呢"},{"start":2653.28,"end":2682.84,"text":"我們是不是為盟其利先受其害以及我們要付出什麼代價我們要犧牲什麼樣的價值那這個所謂的很多人會就是說這個在黨提出的版本他可能會說那我們這些公開法庭跟直播都是展現在人民眼前有什麼不同當然大大的不同第一個它的擴散度以及就是在言論自由行使的一個界限跟限制以及"},{"start":2684.401,"end":2706.021,"text":"課則性就有很大的差別怎麼說呢今天我們公開的法庭是每一位堂聽的民眾都要如實身體力行的到法庭來他必須全程的觀察全程的了解並且也受到硬體設備的限制我們可以達到一個就是避免他"},{"start":2707.142,"end":2732.51,"text":"字義的錄音錄影啊這些在一個有形的一個空間裡面都是可以做到一個管理的但是如果說公播以後呢公播以後我現在實在是不曉得它公播的範圍對象到底是什麼因為法條不明但是我們一般公播直播的概念就是說這個東西它不然就是即時不然就是所謂的錄影在播放"},{"start":2733.51,"end":2760.487,"text":"都是就是把這個法庭的活動可能是藉由一個這個傳播的方式透過這個公開的方式讓全民大眾甚至這個是無遠佛界的不只是全國人民是因為網路是無遠佛界的所以是跨洋跨海各國全球的人可能點這個連結就可以來看直播那這有什麼樣的一個危險呢一個風險呢那就是"},{"start":2761.408,"end":2774.677,"text":"我們所有的人到法庭來都要受到管制全程的接收完整的資訊但在公播以後這些躲在這個鍵盤後面的鍵盤俠這些所謂的就是社會的這些網路的使用者"},{"start":2777.899,"end":2787.146,"text":"它可以隨意的點擊然後可能呢開始就會製造了很多的評論區即便是我們的司法部門它在公播的連結下沒有評論區人民會製造很多的評論那這個評論呢可能就是可以"},{"start":2794.591,"end":2809.924,"text":"就是說這個這個這裡面就會很好操縱為什麼呢因為我們知道法院的判決是非常的有一個對立性的我們作為在我以前當一個法官的時候永遠我們都要認知到我們不可能滿足所有的訴訟當事人"},{"start":2811.605,"end":2839.856,"text":"我不是判這個A勝就是B敗一定有一方對於結果是不滿意的那如果說用成直播的話呢就因為這個送真性對弈性非常強就非常的容易淪為一種被認知戰各位不要以為認知戰是在國安層級的認知戰其實在任何我們大家生活的周遭都有可能是會被成為認知戰的對象不管是目的是商業目的或者是社會議題的目的那在這個情況之下呢"},{"start":2840.916,"end":2864.629,"text":"這個 恣意的被點擊 恣意可以發表評論甚至喔 各位可以想像一種場景 那就是法官呢 一邊的 如果我們開了直播 開了camera法官一邊 跟國民法官一邊在審欸 底下的這一些人民就開始來製造一個投票箱我們來投票 有罪無罪判多久全部都列出來 我們來投票來決定這有沒有可能發生 是有 非常有可能的"},{"start":2865.109,"end":2869.633,"text":"再者這個賭盤 地下賭盤也可以開始就是下注啦我們來賭這個有罪無罪那這樣子的一個情況是不是能夠發揮司法爭議以及這個未來會不會成為一個所謂的司法產業鏈包括這個職業網軍還可以暴動判決你如果就是說職業網軍可以是來你想要什麼樣的判決結果"},{"start":2888.71,"end":2916.389,"text":"你可以托付什么样的职业网群洗风向 戴风向给你严上 给你这个操控人民的认知然后带动这样子一个判决给法院压力 不当的压力那你说法官会不会受害法官本来就应该独立超然做出决断但是在这种氛围下我们给这样法官的压力是适当的吗对于司法正义是有帮助的吗这个大家都要去思考"},{"start":2917.37,"end":2938.523,"text":"那另外一點就是從程序的使用者來看,這個制度的目的其實都不在加惠程序使用者,為什麼呢?我時間到了是不是?因為呢,這個程序的使用者都在程序裡面啦,他們對於整個程序就是整個運作知之甚想啊,那到底這個程序在保護誰?"},{"start":2940.145,"end":2948.103,"text":"這個制度的目的到底是要加惠誰其實除了說只有表演或者宣傳或者是作為一種就是說"},{"start":2949.717,"end":2970.989,"text":"過度的擴散不負責任的言論不負責任的評論導致影響判決影響法官除了這樣的結果我們在程序的使用者裡面找不到任何家會程序的使用者比如說被告各位在座的各位都是各方的先進達人但是我們永遠要記得我們任何一個在社會上的人尤其是現在這個"},{"start":2972.91,"end":2992.197,"text":"人跟人的關係緊密 經濟活動蒼盛 社會連結緊密的情況下每個人都有可能成為潛在的被告包括在座的每一位 有可能是被誤解 被冤屈 被不平就是無罪推定 嚴格的法定證據主義 還有"},{"start":2994.569,"end":3011.899,"text":"丟不來這個正當法律程序所要保護的那如果我們今天把他全部堆上公播台一個人在還沒有經過審判之前本來就是應該被無罪推定但是呢 推上公播台以後全民可以公審最後呢 這個人縱使是無罪的結果"},{"start":3012.719,"end":3032.642,"text":"他的權利可以回復嗎 他受的這些損失 又誰來彌補他呢所以這個東西都是要去審慎的考量 更不要說其他的訴訟參與者 包括證人 被害人即便是一般市警小民的案子 他們在法庭作證都極端的懼怕 有些人是第一次來法庭"},{"start":3033.743,"end":3059.543,"text":"我們其實很多心理測驗這個行為科學都是會有一個鏡頭在對著你對人類的行為絕對有產生一個扭曲的效果這就是寒蟬效應更不要說一些重大的組織犯罪人口 販運這些案件的被害人他怎麼敢去陳述事實呢這對於發現真實是有很大的妨礙那這誰最高興我要說這個制度最高興的就是肥了誰"},{"start":3061.385,"end":3084.981,"text":"網紅、直播主、政論節目的參與者他們可以蹭流量、賺流量甚至把這個司法產業鏈可以商業化、金錢化、有價化甚至來操控主流民意來操弄人心那配合職業網軍未來很可能判決結果都是可以用金錢來堆砌的這是我們非常不願意見到的一個結果"},{"start":3086.542,"end":3109.889,"text":"那很抱歉 我的發言有點超過 那以上是我個人意見這個制度呢 還有這些條文 我們剛講的這些缺失在條文裡面我們都看不到一個對應的機制所以這個條文呢 一旦通過對人民來講是無比的災害 對司法更是那我想我們應該要更審慎來思考 謝謝好 謝謝吳大律師 接下來請程培宇委員發言"},{"start":3116.298,"end":3138.006,"text":"謝謝律師你幫我上了一課身為法盲我非常感謝你身為法盲為什麼還可以在這裡發言因為看到提案是更法盲的提案好謝謝主席我想要講一下這一次這個相關版本是民眾黨所提出來的修正版本但是我要提醒民眾黨還有相關如果後續要支持的在野黨委員"},{"start":3139.546,"end":3156.482,"text":"這一次的法案版本是直接禁覆二讀如果他們真的覺得這個法案這麼好他們為什麼要直接禁覆二讀為什麼不直接在委員會裡面討論呢所以我要先提出這個質疑同時我也就要感謝主席安排今天這個公聽會讓社會大眾有機會透過今天直播一樣是直播的公聽會"},{"start":3157.762,"end":3185.97,"text":"聽見所有專業的聲音我認為這件事情非常非常重要所以我今天的發言會針對兩個部分一個是修法本身還有就是禁風二讀民眾黨一貫採取的手法來討論第一個關於事實審在法庭直播的這個部分我對這個提案表達高度的疑慮他們一直說這個可以促成所謂的司法公開透明可是事實上目前為止除了特定的案件之外其實大部分的法庭審理剛剛律師也都說了我們一般人都可以走進去旁聽"},{"start":3186.73,"end":3214.633,"text":"除了高度社會關注的案件像凱凱案以外可能因為人太多我們才需要抽籤所以如果連這件事情大家都不知道就認為直播才可以促進所謂公開透明那真的是大錯特錯此外呢現在所有的判決書也都可以公開上網裡面會有判決理由會有訴訟代理人會有檢察官還有法官的名字也都看得到因此公開透明的目的就已經達到了同時還可以監督司法所以我真的不知道為什麼會有這個提案"},{"start":3216.374,"end":3227.658,"text":"但是如果談到法庭直播到底會出現什麼問題我想要提醒大家目前如果真的透過法庭直播因為他沒有辦法及時的隱蔽所謂比較敏感性的資訊所以有很多原來在判決書裡面我們會做去識別化的處理這些資訊跟內容在第一時間就會被直播"},{"start":3238.701,"end":3267.256,"text":"放送出去如同刚刚律师说的所有的网红就会在第一时间剪辑相关影片制造错假讯息操控人心他有专业的网军在后面操控我们不知道在后续相关同一个案件审理上会不会给法官给证人给检察官带来莫名其妙的压力这个是我们都很担心的而这个放送出去的同时他也侵害了当事人的隐私还有我刚刚说的证人鉴定人都会受到影响"},{"start":3267.856,"end":3287.202,"text":"另外呢在提案中他們提到法庭的直播發起權限一是由被告申請二是由法院依照職權可以來申請直播我先說我不知道什麼樣的被告會想要讓自己的審判第一時間公諸於世我更難以想像"},{"start":3287.742,"end":3290.343,"text":"有怎麼樣的辯護人會想要把自己的當事人送上全國直播所以我看到民眾黨這個進步二讀的提案版本要依被告申請這個立法模式我真的是要說前所未見另外呢 被告申請"},{"start":3303.328,"end":3329.651,"text":"的同時他也不需要讓其他當事人甚至是證人鑑定人他們的陳述意見他們第一時間可不可以同意這件事情完全沒有在修法當中配套機制有提到一樣是莫名其妙粗糙的修法我認為他們這個動作會把審判變成秀場把交互結論變成一場大戲把法官的自由行政最後變成全民公審"},{"start":3330.552,"end":3344.673,"text":"而剛剛前面兩位專家學者都已經提到不管是相關家暴的案例或者是後續網軍的操控這難道是我們真的期待的司法公開透明審判模式嗎接下來我想要談一下目前民眾黨"},{"start":3346.154,"end":3361.722,"text":"堅持把這個提案禁覆二讀可是我發現在這一屆司法法事委員會或是整個立法院有一個非常奇怪的現象他們很喜歡把自己的法案禁覆二讀我想要問如果民眾黨你們真的認為自己的法案這麼好你們為什麼不好好在委員會"},{"start":3362.502,"end":3384.899,"text":"得到更多國民的支持 得到更多法學專家人士的支持而是決定禁覆二讀我可以猜想 如果後續他們還是要決定開著這個私塾列車往前衝我們可能很遺憾的 又到院會去表決最後讓他們三讀通過我想要說 這一年以來以黃國昌為首的所謂卡提諾法學派一直在要求直播"},{"start":3385.439,"end":3402.757,"text":"而我因為這一個會期擔任黨團幹部我看到非常多荒謬的提案他都要直播包含國安簡報他要直播是要直播給誰看總統邀請大家共商國事他也要直播關於行政院召開黨團會議邀請各個黨邊進行關稅衝擊協商他也要直播"},{"start":3407.282,"end":3421.989,"text":"我不知道到底叫做台灣民眾黨還是叫做台灣直播黨我都開始擔心會不會以後所有立法委員吃飯睡覺這些都要被要求公開直播所以最後我想要講回歸司法層面前一陣子藍白直衝北檢我認為那已經是妨礙司法公正給予司法施壓但是他們在相關的提案裡面卻一樣只敢處理不法關說不敢處理施壓"},{"start":3432.794,"end":3455.811,"text":"施壓司法的罪到目前為止還想把法院的直播禁覆二讀把司法審判變成全民公審我認為這是給司法體系造成更大的壓力而且可能會造成更多公民的遺憾所以我要堅決的反對這個提案也希望今天後續聽到所有專家學者的意見讓提案的黨團跟委員可以及時煞車以上 謝謝"},{"start":3458.475,"end":3466.149,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇陳委員接下來我們請法務部司法官學院學務組蔡元是蔡組長"},{"start":3470.394,"end":3495.624,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進首先我要先跟各位報告我的職稱掛的是司法關係學院的學務組長那我接下來發言還是僅代表我個人我並不代表我現在所介調辦事的機關那這個議題對我來講我們從結論上面來先說啦對於這個法律省的開放這個直播或者是說對於延伸法庭的使用這個我沒有意見但是對於40省的時播我個人反對"},{"start":3497.104,"end":3518.423,"text":"我們用直播去概括他這件事情可能也講得不太精確我們現在談的應該因為還包含了延遲播送這件事情所以比較精準的講應該是法庭也應得公開播送這件議題我在八年前我自己本身是司改國是會議委員是第四分組的委員所以對我來講他是一個趨之不善的法庭幽靈"},{"start":3519.344,"end":3548.409,"text":"我不是在說直播這件事情不能夠被討論而是即使在目前看了草案的規定之後我對於事實上直播的疑慮還是沒有完全解散那我得這樣說就是說我們在談這件事情的時候我真正自己心裡最關切的問題其實是在於對於事實發現的真實發現的傷害這個傷害它可能是隱形的不可見的但是它是非常重大的"},{"start":3549.029,"end":3567.789,"text":"我們可以想像這件事情,我昨天才問我那個法律素人舅舅說,你若被做敬靈,像現在這個矚目的案件,不要說別的啦,北檢的虐童殺人案,或者現在的政治案件,叫你上台做證人或鑑定人,然後外面同時一邊在罵藍處,一邊在罵立區,然後大家各自發表自己的立場,你會不會害怕?"},{"start":3568.43,"end":3596.316,"text":"我想每個人都會害怕那法庭上最常見的一種場景是什麼當有一個我做了二十幾年的假官那絕大多數的時間都在法庭的審判現場你最大多數可以看到一個場景有一個證人坐在法庭的中央然後被一群恰隆恰宏的兄弟圍起來他們可能是被告部隊坐在後面然後法官就問他們說請問你在這些被告面前能不能自由陳述證人就會告訴你說可以但你接下來問到的問題就是我不知道或我不記得"},{"start":3597.591,"end":3618.8,"text":"因為人都有求生的本能而這件事情這個對於真實發現的影響跟衝擊是你事前沒有辦法正確的預估沒有辦法防止事後甚至沒有辦法很好的檢測但是它是真實存在的我們在談這件事情的時候主要談的是能不能增加司法的透明但司法的透明不是一個自主的價值"},{"start":3620.12,"end":3649.47,"text":"司法的透明如果他會抵觸逾越損毀我們關於公正審判或關於這個真實發現的這樣子最主要的目標這個東西我們就要重新再做考慮當一個證人或鑑定人在台上的時候他被放在公眾的觀察底下同時他事後可能被列其窺私同時他事後可能會因為這樣子被苛責他就可能會改變他的陳述意願或者是陳述的內容而這件事情如果我們去問說如果我讓他事前同意是不是就好"},{"start":3650.17,"end":3679.378,"text":"證人鑑定人同意就好了嗎證人跟鑑定人的事前同意可能都會引起另外一波的批判所以他能不能取得他的真摯同意本身都是一個難解的議題所以基本上來講我覺得事實省的法庭直播這件事情對於真實發現的影響太過巨大我個人覺得沒有一個好的方式即使你用所謂的科技隱匿方式去幫他做身份上面的隱匿但是單純從他的談話的脈絡以及相對的背景其實要肉搜出這個"},{"start":3679.918,"end":3696.425,"text":"並沒有什麼特別困難的那另外一件事情就是說那如果我們依照法條把它限制在公開的辯論或者是裁判的宣示上面會不會好一點第一個我不太確定我們這邊所謂的公開的辯論是不是就如我們法律人所想的直指那個罪責辯論跟量刑辯論的程序"},{"start":3698.746,"end":3713.997,"text":"第二件事情即便我們在立法說明或條文把它特定成是公開辯論或者是裁判宣示的程序不要忘了事實審的法律辯論跟法律審的法律辯論有一個非常大的不同當你要站上去做辯論的時候法官的宣示是請你就事實及法律做辯論"},{"start":3714.838,"end":3732.897,"text":"只要牽涉到事實他就得要談到支持的證據他就得指出誰是這個案件裡面定罪或者是無罪的重要的關鍵性的證人他講了什麼他就得把證人的前因後果他的動機他的那些隱私家醜他不願意讓人家獵奇窺私的地方他所不堪之處在那個辯論裡面具體名義的指出來"},{"start":3733.958,"end":3754.845,"text":"讓社會大眾一起共享一起窺見一起評論一起作為茶餘飯後的談資這件事情就可能對真實發現造成某種程度的影響而侵害這些隱私的時候我們非得要這樣做不可才能夠達到法庭公開透明達到公開審判的這樣子的目的嗎這顯然不是一個最小侵害的手段"},{"start":3755.345,"end":3777.478,"text":"旁聽就已經能夠做到公開想要達成的一切目的各位看現在北檢的虐童殺人案那個案子裡面引起了社會非常多的關心也因此社會做了很多的報導很多的民眾湧入開啟了延伸法庭等等等等等等這樣的公開透明把每個脈絡都拿出來解釋其實我們對這個訴訟了解的足夠多了我不需要特別去看到那個孩子的脹氣才知道他受了多少痛苦"},{"start":3778.297,"end":3791.789,"text":"所以基本上來講我們已經有可以達成這個公開所要達成目標的手段我們不需要採取一個更殘忍的侵害性更大的它是不符合憲法上比例原則的審判我們在庭的所有程序參與者都應該有"},{"start":3793.59,"end":3822.669,"text":"拒絕被獵奇窺私這樣子的權利另外一件事情不要忘了這是公開播送所以你的所有偵查knowhow都會被公開都會被強制對公眾公開有一個警察在法庭上談他怎麼樣突破層層的封鎖然後終於查到這個詐騙集團的時候他就在教育大家說下一次你要怎麼樣躲避我的查緝同時他可能引起犯罪模仿的效應這些都是我們也許延遲播送可以稍微但是你延遲播送把他法庭咖掉了一塊之後看到不完整的審判對於法庭的公開證明"},{"start":3823.67,"end":3840.809,"text":"法庭的公正又能夠增加多少的效益另外一件事情就是說它很容易引起法庭上面的偏見失控也就是我們一直在談的一直在避免的輿論審判這件事情特別是我們現在有素人審判了我們有國民法官審判了大家去看國民法官法的第16條以及它的施行細則"},{"start":3841.83,"end":3866.193,"text":"國民法官很容易受到輿論的影響所以法庭上面的偏見是整個國民法官訴訟的核心之一但你現在把它公開播送不管你是直言播送還是直播結論就是說你會發起一個網路投票你會在網路上面形成某種輿論而且就像剛剛仙靜講的這個輿論甚至是可以被操控的它會形成不必要的外在壓力所有的裁判都應該出自於法律"},{"start":3867.595,"end":3889.034,"text":"證據以及邏輯而且只能夠出自於法律證據以及邏輯當你在外部的這個壓力形成了一個壓力去干擾這個裁判的結果的時候我們所相信的一切包含對抗制以及我們所有正當法律程序的設計都會落空特別是在素人審判的情況底下第二件事情影音公開之後可能會遭到濫用為什麼因為它會成為全國最大的秀場"},{"start":3889.855,"end":3919.022,"text":"以及免費的廣告原地如果我今天的業務狀況不好的話我會希望我在這裡好好表演一下那對照既然已經這樣做的話那我也希望說我應該做出相應的回應那法官可能會要建立自己的歷史定位它會造成太多的程序上面的浪費另外一件事情是各位可以想像嗎如果我今天有一個理念想要傳播那也許犯一個案子在法庭上面公開直播就是我最好的方式也就是說它有機會變成是殺人者的步道大會"},{"start":3920.339,"end":3940.334,"text":"我只要殺掉一群人做一個隨機殺人本來不可能聽我講的各位都得要乖乖坐在電視機的前面聽我講我已經達到最好的宣傳效果那最後我很快再講一點就好我們現在採取的是一個草案裡面採取的是一個審判長個案裁決模式這是不是就能夠解決我剛剛所講的所有問題呢反正審判認為不適當他就不要採取嘛"},{"start":3940.834,"end":3968.933,"text":"且別說我們現在從90條的第3項第4項第5項其實我不太能夠看得出立法理由裡面說明的原則跟例外關係因為我其實是把公開放在前面把不得公開放在後面另外一件事情是當你這樣做的時候它鎖定的這個案件類型是重大矚目案件各位所有的重大矚目案件才有特別被獵奇窺私的可能性才有剛剛我們講的一些弊端更可能會發生也就是說在大多數的情況底下"},{"start":3970.814,"end":3991.626,"text":"我不予直播或公開播送那等於是在審判之初在審判的一開始你就莫名其妙的不管你是採取了事前禁止或者是個案決定的方式到最後結論都是一樣我不會公開那你就在審判之初就埋下了一個種子告訴大家說這有一個陰謀論這是一個法庭黑箱所以我們大家不要相信這個判決"},{"start":3992.947,"end":4017.566,"text":"所以這個對我們的整個審判公正不但沒有幫助而且有傷害那另外就是說我們現行的草案看不到濫用這種公開播送資料的處罰規定你沒有任何的配套所以我可以剪輯我可以細膩改作我可以做各自各樣不同的利用我可以讓它歷史永流傳然後就是說各位如果有興趣可以參考的話可以參考一下美國刑事程序規則第53條它是明文的禁止這樣的作為我的報告到這裡"},{"start":4023.531,"end":4037.996,"text":"好 謝謝蔡組長如果可以的話今天發言的學者專家請提供書面這個其實讓大家可以更仔細的去研讀接下來我們有請東吳大學法律系黃教授"},{"start":4039.537,"end":4055.386,"text":"好 那謝謝主席以及各位學業專家然後跟主席報告因為等一下就是我結束之後可能要去那個桃園要去口試學生所以可能會中間提前離席跟主席報告一下那要跟大家抱歉"},{"start":4062.83,"end":4080.305,"text":"抱歉好那首先呢我先講結論就是我的結論認為說不應該要擴大進行法律審的這個法庭的公開播送那我認為說呢現行的這一個旁聽的措施已經符合了公開審理的要求那不應該擴大這個事實審的法庭公開播送那"},{"start":4081.305,"end":4096.69,"text":"結論的第二個呢是我認為說我們可以適當的去開放被害人以及家屬遠距旁聽但我說的遠距旁聽指的是在法院的實體的空間例如說可能另外一個小房間或者是另外一個延伸法庭去做遠距旁聽那這個是我兩個主要的結論"},{"start":4098.371,"end":4127.23,"text":"那接下來呢我首先我要跟大家說的是我要講的是這四個部分那第一個部分我會說的是公開審理及公開播送的這個定性那我會去分析這兩個定性到底差別在哪裡那第二個我會跟大家分析的是呢法庭公開播送對於司法運作所產生的避害那前面幾位先進棋儀都已經有很深入的去做檢討那第三個部分我會講的是日本法的檢討以及第四個部分也就是我結論二的部分保障犯罪被害人的適度開放"},{"start":4128.611,"end":4151.053,"text":"首先對於公開審理原則的意義以及目的來說首先什麼叫做公開審理原則法院審理刑事案件的時候以及宣誓判決除非有特別情況的話原則上本來就應該允許跟刑事程序沒關的不特定多數人或者是在法院的容納適當空間之內在場旁聽去目睹審判的進行與宣判"},{"start":4152.614,"end":4168.414,"text":"那這樣子的公開審理原則呢在我們的法院組織法的第86條以及呢日本的比較法的日本的憲法的37條以及82條的第一項都有去做明文那日本法我有在那個書面資料上面有去做反映所以請各位先進去做參照"},{"start":4169.014,"end":4190.534,"text":"那接下來呢公開審理它的目的是什麼也就是它為了避免國家的權利在密室的審理當中呢被恣意的運用所以呢我們要藉由審理公開去確保國民可以在自由旁丁的情況之下去監督審理它到底是否公平或者是在公正之下去做進行所以呢在這一個公開審理它的目的我們可以把它"},{"start":4190.954,"end":4206.853,"text":"整理成以下的三點不論是我國或者是日本那首先第一點也就是最原則最上位的就是程序的妥適進行那以及被告的權利保護那第二點是促進國民對於裁判的理解以及信賴那第三點是對於犯罪具有一般預防的這個效果"},{"start":4207.453,"end":4222.35,"text":"那現行的這一個法庭的公開審理的措施例如說像是我國就是有法庭的旁聽規則或者是說呢有法庭的這一個第七條的第二款去禁止在法庭旁聽的時候去做攝錄影等等的這樣子的法條規範"},{"start":4223.351,"end":4242.096,"text":"但是在這一個禁止錄音錄影以及向法庭去做攝影這樣的規範禁止底下我們仍然允許旁聽者在旁抄寫筆記以及去做法庭的這個繪製的速寫那甚至像這一次呢前面幾位先進有說到這個凱凱安的審理其實也有這樣的法庭速寫這樣子的這個媒體的速寫"},{"start":4244.677,"end":4260.752,"text":"那在日本的這個公開審理的這個措施呢我們來看一下對於他的法庭旁聽規則他也一樣的是說為了維護秩序他們會發這個法庭的旁聽券那在法院或者是審判長可以考量事件的性質以及內容去裁量決定到底要不要設錄影"},{"start":4261.593,"end":4286.59,"text":"但是他的攝錄影非常的限制也就是只有被告不在庭的情況之下那攝影機也只能從審判長所指定的位置之內去做攝影也不能特寫除了法官以外的特定的人所以這個情況原則上我所想像的就是在開庭之前然後他去拍法庭的被告以外的這一些人或者是法官這樣子所以原則上在審理的過程當中他是禁止去做攝錄影的"},{"start":4287.771,"end":4308.158,"text":"那除了這個之外呢在日本法上面他也是可以去做抄寫筆記那抄寫筆記的話一樣的在他們的這一個大法庭在他們大法庭的裁定判決裡面是有去做說明的那首先我要請大家要注意一下的是他們在這一個我裡面的紅字的部分也就是說你在做筆記的時候原則上你也是不能去干預審判的確保"},{"start":4309.778,"end":4339.076,"text":"干預審判的這一個進行所以他們審判的進行的實現呢是優於這一個法庭的旁聽活動這樣子的這一個考量那接下來在我們的措施底下呢不論是我國或者是日本那除非啦有妨礙法庭的秩序而經禁止之外否則會允許旁聽以及抄寫筆記那日本非常的限制的情況之下他會去限制錄音錄影這樣子的活動那我國是採取全面禁止但是日本在非常非常限縮的情況之下才會去做開放"},{"start":4339.776,"end":4369.276,"text":"那在這一個現行的這個公開審理的措施呢我們怎樣可以達到避免密室裁判呢其實就既有的這個我們公開的審理措施就已經可以達成了例如說像是開庭的全程錄音錄影那錄音錄影當然不會對外公佈那判決書原則上會直接的公開上網以及呢透過民眾可以直接的去進行旁聽這樣的直接公開的方式允許民眾旁聽那就判決書原則公開甚至日本呢他的判決書還不是全部公開"},{"start":4369.876,"end":4391.875,"text":"他是一不公開那如果你要看的話你要去法院實際跑去那個法院去做申請那公開播送呢對於司法運作所產生的弊害那對於這個弊害呢剛才各位幾位先進其實都已經有講過了也就是侵害隱私權以及人格權的風險那導致證言萎縮的這樣的效應也就是說我證人我不敢在法庭上面去知所不言的去做"},{"start":4393.817,"end":4415.798,"text":"講話那對於這一個鎮嚴的萎縮效應呢對於這一個醫學專業的台灣法醫學會等等的這些學會也都有發表聲明去做說明那另外呢像是剛才蔡主任說的這個公開播送有影響國民法官新政的這個危險那也是非常的這一個影響的非常的巨大所以我認為說呢就結論來說公開播送的危險有這一些就是"},{"start":4416.338,"end":4439.146,"text":"這言為說證人不願意作證國民法官的心證有遭到影響的可能而且呢參與訴訟的相關人也有人身安全遭受到危害的疑慮那甚至呢也會產生相機視角的偏誤也就是說對於這個相機他所拍攝的角度不同我們所解讀的人他的心理狀態可能會認為說他是出於任意的或者是可能認為說他是出於不任意這樣的狀況會隨著"},{"start":4441.026,"end":4466.719,"text":"這個拍攝的角度不同而產生了這個心理學上的誤解所以我認為說基於這些危險呢那我認為說就這一個公開的部分的話在這一個沒有實證研究的前提之下我們不宜而且也不應呢去做對於事實審法院去進行公開播送那對於這一個公開播送呢在這一個我們公聽會前幾天陳思凡法官他有去投書那投書呢在這一個"},{"start":4468.18,"end":4485.891,"text":"投說的標題叫做法庭直播禁負惡毒強推的根本錯誤裡面他其實有對於草案的去做出評試那對於草案去做評試例如說像草案當中他所規定的要件以及審查的基準非常的寬泛那例如說像是重大的公益是什麼那什麼叫社會矚目也缺乏了這一個明確的定義"},{"start":4486.511,"end":4515.558,"text":"那除此之外呢還有在所有的案件類型沒有區分不同案件類型去做不同密度的規範甚至是它也適用到了立法理由第四點也適用到了少年及家事法院那對於家事跟少年案件的審理來說原則上是不公開審理的那如果公開播送的話呢可能會產生當事人的隱私去做出去做出侵害這樣子所以就我來說我認為說不應該開放事實審去公開播送那除了這個之外我們的民宿裡面也有去說明說"},{"start":4516.198,"end":4535.808,"text":"原則上法庭審理證人的說明是優先於旁聽的措施所以我認為說在這一個公開播送之下呢是正確認定事實的法庭任務會優先於旁聽者的參與那這個是我所認為的結論那在日本法上面呢他們有沒有允許公開法庭播送其實他們在2027年的時候有召開檢討處議"},{"start":4539.029,"end":4561.618,"text":"這樣的委員會去做出討論但是他們最終討論的結論也是說要從整體的司法制度去做通盤的檢討跟規劃所以結論上他們也沒有通過法庭的直播那日本法也在討論說法庭直播也會有以下的避害例如說可能難以獲得證人跟鑑定人的協助也有可能會造成被害人二次傷害等等這樣的避害所以結論上來說他們認為說不應該"},{"start":4564.279,"end":4570.864,"text":"去做出線上直播這樣子的規範那甚至呢還有可能會對於裁判員啊或者是證人或鑑定人的容貌可能會被別人指導會產生了接觸不當的接觸不當的騷擾或不當的恐嚇這樣子的行為發生所以連日本法在這個法庭直播他們都採取非常謹慎保守的態度了所以我認為說在我國呢也不應該去開放線上的旁聽那你要旁聽你就直接去現場旁聽或者是透過延伸法庭"},{"start":4591.52,"end":4617.127,"text":"那另外一個補充是我認為說對於這一個被害人應該要適度開放要開放哪幾種類型的被害人因為他是犯罪被害人以及家屬那我認為說例如說像是第一種類型就是被害人人數眾多那法庭容納不下或是第二種像性侵害會有高度具備隱私這樣的需求的被犯罪被害人的家屬或者是第三種類型就是我住很遠然後很難實際上到法庭去進行旁聽的被害人家屬這三種類型"},{"start":4618.687,"end":4646.91,"text":"那要怎麼去做旁聽呢在場所上面我認為說最少最少應該要在同一個法庭的其他的實體空間或者是其他的法院的特定的空間但是在這個空間前提底下也要去確保訴訟參與者的隱私權那如果是非實體空間的線上場所的話我認為說也不應該去開放去做參與所以就結論上來說我認為說應該不應該去開放事實審的這個法院去進行旁聽那以上是我的說明謝謝大家"},{"start":4649.47,"end":4654.495,"text":"主席還有各位專家先進 大家好今天非常感謝我們這個莊育雄召委"},{"start":4672.523,"end":4690.636,"text":"那麼召開這個法院組織法有關司法公開透明修正立法的探討公聽會那今天的議題主要是涉及到兩個部分一個是與這個評議部的保存年限尤其是涉及到死刑的評議部的保存年限這個有本席提案"},{"start":4691.116,"end":4717.54,"text":"要未來要永久保存這樣一個法案那麼另外呢則是涉及到與推動法庭直播有關的議題那在這裡呢因為我主要是當時是提出法案那麼認為在先判自就在113先判自8號判決之後呢我們大法官要求未來各級法院的法官判處死刑必須要一致決"},{"start":4719.081,"end":4740.294,"text":"這樣的一個判決影響之後那麼認為說其實法庭的評議部未來應該要永久保存所以我提了相關的修法那麼我在這邊還要再次重申我基本上是反對憲判自8號裡面所判決的內容因為本席認為大法官"},{"start":4740.894,"end":4744.196,"text":"已經逾越了他的職權的界限那麼對於死刑的刑度構成不當的限縮同時也插手到了立法權那麼本席認為這是一項違背民意逾越權利分立原則的一個實質廢死的判決"},{"start":4756.923,"end":4760.945,"text":"那當然在這個判決當中大法官他明確要求剋除死刑應經各級法院和議庭法官一致決那麼也就是說在三審當中的每一個法官這個未來他在除非是一致決否則的話是不得判處死刑那麼這個門檻當然設得非常高那麼事實上我們也看到了現在這個"},{"start":4778.613,"end":4784.575,"text":"判決所造成的這個他的這個影響他的後遺症那目前也有一些也有這個個案因為沒有辦法證明那麼過去的法院判決是否是一致決所以呢竟然逃過死刑而提起非常上訴全身而退那麼本席認為說這樣子的一個判決他的確帶來了很多"},{"start":4805.64,"end":4823.089,"text":"負面的影響那麼現在依據法院類檔案保存年限的基準表法院對於評議部的保存是只有10年而這樣的制度性的漏洞無疑是與憲法法庭的本意背道而馳那麼當然就是"},{"start":4824.563,"end":4844.811,"text":"在正好這個宪判自8號判決之後那麼對於評議部的保存那麼是有必要要去做調整那麼我們知道在我提出這個法案是在今年的3月21就已經完成聯署並且送案了"},{"start":4845.171,"end":4852.135,"text":"那麼要提出修改法院組織法的106條的第三項那麼就是將凡經判處死刑的案件其評議部應列為永久保存那在本席提出這個法案之後呢那麼我們也看到這個國發會的檔案管理局那麼他們在114年也是在今年的4月16號就新增加了項目那麼將刑事法院判決死刑的評議部是改為永久保存"},{"start":4874.969,"end":4895.394,"text":"那麼暫時解決這個問題那麼我當然也很肯定就是國發會的檔案管理局那麼他們很快的重新在作業上面就先將這個法院評議部就是判決死刑的法院評議部從十年那麼延長到改為永久保存但是本席還是認為說若有"},{"start":4898.179,"end":4907.927,"text":"從這法律明確性的角度來講那麼未來能夠明定在法院組織法的106條第三項那麼我覺得會更為妥當所以"},{"start":4909.042,"end":4928.391,"text":"在這裡那麼雖然說我們目前從行政作業上面看起來已經解決這個問題但是本席還是認為說如果能夠這個未來能夠完成相關的修法的話其實是更符合法律明確性的原則好那麼除此之外在今天另外一個議題就是關於法庭直播的修法"},{"start":4929.673,"end":4944.669,"text":"那我们知道其实法庭直播是2017年司改国事会议的决议那么推动法庭直播其实是有助于我国的司法透明度的提升那么同时呢也能够增进人民对于司法的信赖"},{"start":4945.979,"end":4948,"text":"當然本席今天在這裡最主要還是要聆聽各個專家學者不同的意見因為我們知道其實法庭直播它的確可能會有一些影響譬如說可能會影響到隱私未來會造成"},{"start":4963.15,"end":4975.544,"text":"這個人民公審、法庭受場話等等這些問題喔那麼所以呢在這個部分來說的話那麼本席基本上主要還是希望能夠聆聽各位專家學者的意見那麼民眾黨的黨版現在是有"},{"start":4978.407,"end":5004.985,"text":"針對法庭公開直播的這個部分呢它是限縮於涉及到重大公共利益或社會矚目的案件也不是全部的審判都是要公開播送那麼所以未來我們在推動相關的修法要怎麼樣限縮這個範圍還有在程序上面如何做得更完整那麼這個是我今天在這裡那麼這個也很感謝專家學者們提供各方的寶貴的意見那麼我們都會作為我們未來修法的參考以上謝謝"},{"start":5009.143,"end":5024.557,"text":"謝謝洪小玲委員來我相信今天很多學者專家大家很專業的發言立法院各委員都會受益良多接下來我們請現代婦女教育基金會司法社工處的黃欣怡黃處長"},{"start":5035.882,"end":5054.77,"text":"總召各位委員 專家學者與會先進大家早安 大家好我是現代婦女基金會司法事公處的處長黃欣儀現代婦女基金會我們長期投注關注的議題是家庭暴力 性別暴力 利益家庭以及未成年子女的議題並提供第一線專業的服務"},{"start":5056.531,"end":5070.416,"text":"那基本上我們很認同上述專家學者對於法庭直播的擔心與意見因為我想核心就是直播的制度如果設計不當的話其實司法程序可能從一個揭示真相的一個場域淪為輿論操作的一個秀場"},{"start":5072.717,"end":5087.123,"text":"那接下來本會的發言會特別針對的是我們關注的議題包括了家暴家事以及涉及脆弱當事人的審理程序那我們認為法庭直播的程序將會對弱勢以及兒少造成不可逆的風險"},{"start":5089.621,"end":5108.04,"text":"那以下我們提出三點觀察與建議的部分第一點是家暴與家事的案件直播恐干擾真實的陳述那這是基於就是我們看到法院組織法第九十條修法說明裡面的第四點提及到家事法庭准用直播的一個擔憂"},{"start":5109.821,"end":5134.687,"text":"家暴案件的保護令因為家暴法有明定不公開審理所以我們沒有在此討論的範圍但是我們要說的是家事案件裡面仍然可能涉及家暴的議題例如說離婚訴請的理由裡面就有不堪同居的虐待那實務上也如前面先進所說的其實我們在實務上非常常陪同家暴的被害人還有未成年子女進入法庭即使沒有盡頭其實他們已經非常的擔憂非常的緊張了"},{"start":5136.787,"end":5165.269,"text":"那如果再加上鏡頭的話我想他們可能根本沒有辦法開口說話那法庭應該是查明真相的地方不應該是讓人變成沉默害怕甚至必須要可能因為面對鏡頭而說謊保護自己的場域那我們也想要提醒如果家事案件准用可能的狀況就是如果家事法庭准用那就依據家事事件法第九條若當事人合意且無妨礙公共秩序或善良風俗法院應准許旁聽"},{"start":5166.75,"end":5196.15,"text":"那我們擔心的是其實組織法通過之後上訴的狀況可能就會納入直播的範圍裡面那舉例像離婚的案件當事人雖然是夫妻可是如果夫妻合意依據家事事件法法院法官准許旁聽那麼這樣子就可以准許直播開放嗎但是法庭內我們要說的是其實涉及的不是只有雙方當事人還有包括了子女、祖父母家庭中的其他成員甚至第三人"},{"start":5197.03,"end":5223.565,"text":"這些人雖然不是當事人卻可能因為當事人的合意直播而無端的曝光違反他們的隱私保護原則也使得第三人的權益完全的失守那我們要強調的是這一類案件的庭審內容常涉及到家庭裡面非常隱私脆弱的家庭經歷例如受虐的經過親密暴力孩子的情緒與表現還有家庭的精神醫療記錄或者家庭成員之間衝突對話的細節"},{"start":5226.506,"end":5255.132,"text":"這些資訊不是只是法庭的一個陳述內容更是涉及當事人跟關係人的尊嚴跟心理界限那或許有一些案件真的是社會矚目的案件像是名人案件但是我們質疑的是這些隱私的揭露與公益之間的關聯性到底是什麼難道只是因為社會矚目然後當事人同意公開審理那就能夠正當化一個直播放送然後讓這些家庭中其他人的痛苦被揭露嗎"},{"start":5256.823,"end":5275.857,"text":"那第二點我們要強調的是直播被資訊濫用的風險極高難以防治那我想也如同前面的先進都有提到就是我們要再一次強調的是家事事件法裡面提供的就是說法院可以公開可以開放旁聽旁聽真的不是只是聽而已不是播"},{"start":5276.698,"end":5304.155,"text":"那旁聽是一個法庭可控制的現場行為可是直播是一個擴散可以回放沒有辦法回收的數位記錄兩者風險差異真的非常的大那就算採用一個延遲播送資訊遮蔽的技術我們仍然擔心就是這些畫面可能被截錄被變造甚至造AI的重製那未來有新人士可能也會利用這些素材去剪輯片段模仿語音惡意重製等"},{"start":5304.915,"end":5323.883,"text":"那這些都是對於當事人或家庭中的關係人造成無法追溯的永久性傷害特別我們要提到的是這裡面案件的兒童跟少年如果他們的家庭糾紛父母的訴訟衝突被留出留下數位痕跡可能對他的成長他的人際關係造成一個長久的創傷"},{"start":5325.243,"end":5335.218,"text":"而且我們也都知道其實現在這些影片一旦上網幾乎就是沒有辦法下架也沒有辦法阻止流傳那現行的制度也缺乏一個有效的申訴跟刪除的機制"},{"start":5336.383,"end":5362.757,"text":"那第三點我們要特別提醒的是從案件名稱類型其實難以評估直播的一個風險我們不能夠僅依據案件類型來決定可不可以直播特別是有一類是案件名稱跟實質風險不對等的例如說家庭暴力跟性侵案件雖然法律有規定不能夠公開審理但是其實這些案件其實它會延伸相關的其他民刑事案件比如說像是民事賠償、刑事傷害、毀損、誣告等等的"},{"start":5365.678,"end":5380.293,"text":"那以2022年的新北市寄信婦人殺父案件為由其實這是一個國民法官審理的刑事案件嘛那表面上是一個重大的刑事案件但實際上它是一個家暴倖存者長期受虐之後一個自我防衛的行為"},{"start":5381.474,"end":5410.361,"text":"那這些案件如果被納入說重大公共利益或社會矚目的案件直播範圍裡面會導致當事人還有他的家人再次面臨公審被標籤的風險那法庭上勢必也揭露他的受虐逆成心理創傷以及夫妻與孩子之間的情感糾葛這是 這不是公共娛樂的素材這是深層的家庭創傷因此我們主張司法應該是一個庇護弱勢的場域而不是將它曝光在傷害之中的工具"},{"start":5411.121,"end":5439.298,"text":"所以現在婦女基金會我們支持一個資訊應該公開但是認為法庭的公開播送它帶來的一個影響是非常廣泛跟深遠的因此建議這樣的制度施行之前還是應該進行更充分的討論與實證研究並納入婦女兒少團體的相關意見 謝謝好 謝謝黃處長接下來我們有請台灣高等法院文嘉倩法官發言"},{"start":5447.464,"end":5473.291,"text":"主席各位委員各位學者專家各位先進各位長官大家好我是台灣高等法院法官文嘉倩那今天非常感謝各位委員對於司法透明度以及公開播送這個議題的重視在此先對各位委員致意那我呢因為是事實審法官所以我會從一個事實審法官的觀點來看法庭質不過這個議題在事實審會發生什麼樣一個嚴重的問題尤其是在刑事案件裡面它的問題會更為嚴重"},{"start":5475.111,"end":5503.659,"text":"那麼我個人的立場其實是反對法庭直播尤其是事實審法庭直播的那當然主張者可能會認為說公開審理就等於法庭播送把這兩個概念連結在一起認為公開審理就要法庭直播但是公開審理它的意義呢其實它本來是在避免秘密審判之下會對被告造成一個不公平的審理那所以要公開法庭讓民眾可以進來旁聽來監督法院那它有公開方式有三種可以開放實體法庭延伸法庭以及法庭直播"},{"start":5504.179,"end":5524.728,"text":"所以我們可以看得出來法庭直播它只是公開審理方式的一種它並不是唯一所以公開審理並不是以法庭直播為必要的那麼另外從比較法上的觀察那當然美國它的聯邦原則上它的開放法庭直播是很少的那英國它的法庭直播也具有相當程度的局限性德國日本它原則上也是不開放直播所以我們可以看得出來"},{"start":5525.328,"end":5541.661,"text":"即使在世界各國它同樣是採行公開審理制度的國家它也不必然會採行法庭直播所以我們可以看得出來法庭直播跟公開審理它其實就是兩個不同的概念如果我們把公開審理無限上綱到法庭直播的時候可能會首先犯了一個邏輯上的一個謬誤那另外呢"},{"start":5543.662,"end":5565.838,"text":"所以我們在談法庭直播的時候其實主要是看它的利跟弊要如何去權衡利弊得失的問題那整體而言把它歸納成它有三大目的四大影響跟五大弊端整體來說它的弊是遠遠大於利的尤其是在事實上的部分當然我們肯定法庭直播它可以達到這三大目的就是可以提升司法透明度增進公眾對司法的監督以及滿足人民知的權利這些都是無庸置疑的"},{"start":5566.238,"end":5591.367,"text":"但是現在這些利益法庭直播可以達到的利益是只有法庭直播才可以達到嗎還是現在的其他制度也已經可以達到那我們可以看到我們現行的制度裡面有法庭公開判決書公開以及法庭錄音這三大制度就可以讓人民進入法院或者是延伸法庭來旁聽開庭來監督法院的審判程序的進行判決書公開也可以讓人民上網查閱判決可以看到法官新政形成的一個理由"},{"start":5591.887,"end":5612.019,"text":"當事人也可以就判決提起上訴來救濟另外法庭會全程錄音所以當事人也可以申請交付法庭錄音透過這三大機制目前就已經足以確保人民知的權利以及公眾對司法的監督以及提升司法的透明度也就是法庭直播所要想要達到的目的了所以我們就會開始懷疑說那法庭直播它的正當性何在呢"},{"start":5615.799,"end":5631.819,"text":"那另外我們來看法庭質問它到底有哪一些負面影響我把它分成四個層次它大概對法律專業人士訴訟關係人對被告對國民法官都會有一些負面影響那對法律專業人士的負面影響呢我們就先從美國前代法官Ethany Kennedy她所說的話來看"},{"start":5632.72,"end":5640.764,"text":"他說如果法庭活動可以公開播送律師檢察官可能會從原先以法官陪審團為訴求對象改為以攝影機媒體社會大眾為訴求對象法律專業人士會傾向於發表受媒體關注的名言而非專注於實質的法庭辯論"},{"start":5648.527,"end":5671.918,"text":"所以我們可以看得出來如果開放公開播送的時候呢簡便他可能重點會放在表演而不是審判他會把訴訟的焦點會放在舞台效果而不是證據本身這個時候會造成整個法庭活動的一個娛樂化綜藝化人民在看法庭活動的時候像是在看一場大型的審判實境秀一樣那這樣子我們到底是可以達到發現真實的目的還是只是為了滿足公眾的娛樂的一個需求呢"},{"start":5675.014,"end":5697.608,"text":"那另外就對訴訟關係來講的部分這邊要特別強調一點就是有關於個人的這個資訊自決權的問題資訊自決權的問題其實在大法官釋字裡面多次揭示它是屬於憲法所保障的基本權利那資訊自決權它在指的是一個個人他對於他的個資跟隱私要不要揭露在何種範圍內揭露要向何人揭露要在何時揭露以何種方式揭露他都有一個自主決定權"},{"start":5698.288,"end":5713.035,"text":"但是一旦開放法庭直播之後呢因為法庭的訴訟活動它是一個現在進行式是一個浮動的狀態那它訴訟過程當中會發生什麼樣的狀況會有什麼樣的言論出現會有什麼樣的行為這都是沒有辦法預測跟控制的所以一旦開放直播的時候這些訴訟關係人"},{"start":5714.455,"end":5729.294,"text":"被告、證人、鑑定人跟訴訟的關係他們會淪為一個觀看的課題他們的聲音影像被迫的公開播送到全國的時候這時候會發生一個問題雖然被告跟證人他們有告庭的義務但是他沒有被播送的義務他沒有被剝奪要被被剝奪他的資訊自決權的義務"},{"start":5732.017,"end":5746.793,"text":"那所以一旦他的個資跟隱私在訴訟當中因為浮動的狀態而被揭露的時候而公開播送到全國的時候因為網路它又具有一個無遠弗屆跟一個持續性的效果所以對這些訴訟關係人他的人格權跟人性尊嚴的損害是永久而且難以回復的"},{"start":5747.674,"end":5763.201,"text":"那麼另外在就證人來講當然我們也可以想像到如果今天一個證人他所做的證詞對被告不利的時候他會不會擔心在外的這個上會到來的共犯可能會對他進行報復或者是他也可能會擔心在輿論公審的情況之下他的證詞不符合輿論的期待的時候他可能會受到輿論的批判"},{"start":5763.761,"end":5790.429,"text":"這些都會導致證人他可能會不敢作證或者是說他會扭曲他的證詞會影響到他證詞的真實性那麼另外就鑑定人來說因為現在刑事中鑑定心智通過之後其實鑑定人要到法庭接受交互結論已經讓很多醫生不願意來擔任鑑定人了那麼一旦開放法庭直播之後鑑定人他的聲音影像他的陳述內容會公開播送到全國我們可以想像會有更多的專業人士不願意來擔任鑑定人那我們先想想哪一天對於額內案件也許沒有醫生願意來當鑑定人"},{"start":5791.989,"end":5812.9,"text":"對於殺人案件也許沒有法律出來當鑑定人這個時候我們要怎麼去發現真實呢那另外對被告來說開放法庭直播之後不可避免就會引起輿論審判跟全民公審的效應但是這樣子真的是對被告來說是一個公平審判可以形成更正確的行政嗎那我們要看的是人民在看公開播送的時候他是怎麼看的有可能是同時開了好幾個網頁隨時轉來轉去"},{"start":5815.521,"end":5833.809,"text":"或者是說他在看這個過程當中也許受到這件事情的干擾那件事情的干擾他可能沒有辦法專注在某一段落的一個法庭的活動跟他在現場觀看旁聽是不一樣的那所以這樣所產生的新政他會是一個片斷而零散的新政會淪於一種斷章取義式的印象審判那麼另外呢人民也可能會受到"},{"start":5834.509,"end":5851.585,"text":"當事人 或者是檢辯 或者是證人 被告他們的外形 穿著 談吐 儀態的影響而產生這樣子的新證這樣子的新證是直擊一種偏見而易斷的新證在國民法官的時候我們可以發現這個問題但是國民法官可以避免這個問題的原因是因為法官他可以透過"},{"start":5852.425,"end":5870.686,"text":"審前說明後 透過訴訟指揮 透過評議的說明他去避免到國民法官產生偏見預斷但是在人民在看到法庭直播的時候他在他自己家看到法庭直播的時候這個時候法官沒有辦法對他採取任何的解釋跟說明這時候我們要怎麼樣去避免這種偏見預斷會對被告產生一個不公平的一個結果呢那另外對那個"},{"start":5874.045,"end":5901.263,"text":"國民法官來說開放法庭直播之後國民法官身份可能不可避免的會遭到洩露一旦洩露的話他可能會遭到左鄰右舍的關切他也可能會被媒體追逐他也可能會被人民肉搜會導致他生活的平衡、寧靜受到嚴重的影響那另外他的新政也可能會受到媒體被動的受到媒體或者是輿論審判而有所不當的影響也會影響到整個訴訟結果的正確性另外更重要的一個問題是國民法官他可能因為輿論審判的影響導致他的壓力過大而想要辭任"},{"start":5903.624,"end":5925.072,"text":"一旦辭任的國民法官人數多於被衛國民法官的人數的時候這個時候被衛國民法官已經不夠用了這個時候法庭活動被迫要終止必須要重新開啟一個選任程序這也都會非常的嚴重影響到國民法官制度的一個運作那麼另外我們來看就是說剛才所提到這些問題是不是其實透過配套措施就可以解決呢我們現行制度有沒有配套措施答案是沒有"},{"start":5925.752,"end":5940.752,"text":"我們目前技術上其實沒有辦法避免民眾去翻拍剪輯加工法庭直播畫面的情形我們不像英美他們有藐視法庭罪可以去避免可以去處罰這樣的行為那另外如果有媒體他使用法庭直播畫面作為新聞或談話性節目素材的時候要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":5941.653,"end":5959.137,"text":"我們目前雖然有媒體自律規範但是長久以來都沒辦法落實更不要說如果今天有很多的自媒體它根本也不受到媒體自律規範的限制的時候這個時候要怎麼辦呢那另外如果有人把法庭直播畫面上傳到網路作為訴訟外不當使用的時候怎麼辦我們目前沒有網路平台下架的一個設計性影像有"},{"start":5959.417,"end":5986.268,"text":"但是法庭直播作為訴訟還不當使用是沒有的所以這個部分我們也沒辦法去處理那另外如果有人騷擾證人或國民法官怎麼辦呢我們目前沒有像美國一樣有這類型的妨害司法公證罪可以去處罰這類型的行為我們的妨害司法公證罪是不包括處罰騷擾證人或國民法官所以這個配套措施也是目前看起來在付之缺乳另外就是執行層面的配套措施因為依照之前司法院估計如果說是全國的各法院"},{"start":5987.028,"end":6000.083,"text":"各法院的各個法庭都要開放法庭直播的話可能需要上百億的經費但是其實我們把它限縮每個法院只有一個法庭來做法庭直播的話也需要上億的經費這樣子上億的經費到底要從何而來是由納稅人來滿單嗎還是像美國一樣"},{"start":6002.005,"end":6026.545,"text":"是由媒體來承擔這個費用那再來就是要額外把法庭直播之後需要額外支出的這些人力我們因為目前是要總原額法的限制我們人力增加是非常的緊繃的這些人力要從何而來也是一個問題接下來平寬的問題目前司法院平寬給全國各法院使用如果一旦全國人民要進來看法庭直播的時候這個司法院平寬不夠用的時候那都會導致法院網站當機可能法官的正常審判也沒辦法進行這些問題要怎麼解決"},{"start":6027.145,"end":6044.096,"text":"那必須要強調的是這些問題並不是要等到法案通過之後才來解決在法案通過之前其實這相關的配套資源就必須要到位否則現在法案規定的是三個月施行一旦資源沒有到位的情況下法案通過之後三個月之後也沒有辦法施行會導致土法不足以自行的情況所以總結來說呢就是"},{"start":6046.037,"end":6064.037,"text":"法庭直播他會在事實審會產生五大弊端他會侵害被告訴訟權訴訟參與者人格權以及違反國際推定原則公平審判原則也會妨害發現真實最終就會侵蝕到司法獨立所以我個人認為在目前還沒有經過通盤討論審慎演繹沒有相關配套措施到位之前不適合採取法庭直播尤其是事實審法庭直播謝謝"},{"start":6067.381,"end":6076.521,"text":"好 謝謝吳法官我想這些都足供我們立法院來做一個審議的時候重大的一個參考接下來我們請羅志強委員"},{"start":6084.454,"end":6113.593,"text":"主席還有出席的我們的專家學者跟列席的官員大家早安那司法透明化是民主制度的基礎價值那人民看見司法怎麼運作也是強化信任的關鍵所以因此我們現在社會對司法公信力的期待跟焦慮是與日俱增那根據匯流在去年做的調查只有三成的人認為司法是公正的那這當然是非常大的司法危機"},{"start":6114.594,"end":6132.497,"text":"那面對近年來司法透明化的呼聲高漲所以近期國會再度啟動對於法院組織法修正的討論包括法庭是否要開放直播其實這也是當年蔡英文總統推動司法改革在司法國事會議上的一個重要的改革方向"},{"start":6133.098,"end":6157.971,"text":"那司法院跟法務部針對法院組織法修法提出的書面意見那指出法庭直播可能衍生證人不敢作證被告遭網路公審各自外洩等問題那我覺得這些擔憂當然不是無地放矢啦但是要審慎看待但是我也要提醒就是也不能說就是把這個所謂的風險有風險就全面的保守跟退縮"},{"start":6158.939,"end":6179.338,"text":"那麼最關鍵的核心就是你還是要能夠盡量的在司法透明化的過程當中讓陽光進到司法裡面那找回人民對司法的信任感那兩份報告都強調歐洲日本美國聯邦法院多位實施法庭直播那就是說因此台灣也不可以推動"},{"start":6180.399,"end":6207.817,"text":"那事實上部分國家包括美國部分的州法院早已經有限度的採行直播或影音公開的機制它其實也有一些實務經驗可以參考那舉例來說早期美國聯邦最高法院就認為開庭時允許影像報導是侵犯了被告公平受審的權利違反正當法律程序但是後來隨著時代的變遷那聯邦最高法院也轉而認為憲法並未限制"},{"start":6210.479,"end":6235.834,"text":"州是否開放刑事審判的轉播因此許多州逐漸的開放法庭直播也就是說並不是所有的國家的司法系統都在拒絕直播那當然也如同法務部跟司法院提到法庭直播固然具有資訊公開民主監督跟法治教育這些潛在價值但如果沒有妥善設計制度卻可能引發政人不敢作證"},{"start":6236.795,"end":6265.678,"text":"被告遭到社會審判以及網路剪輯霸凌等等副作用那任何公開影像都可能被漏搜放大使當事人隱私跟名譽無法修復那這些提醒當然要審慎對待那麼尤其在法庭上有時候會涉及個人的病史或是一些其他的隱私問題如果沒有配套 足夠配套保護的話那也有可能造成某些社會弱勢者更加遠離司法救濟"},{"start":6266.559,"end":6294.593,"text":"那當然我是能夠理解司法透明也不是一個非常容易的改革啦那直播也不是萬能的解方但是也不能讓所謂的潛在風險變成改革停滯的藉口那還是回到我一開始說的就是這次討論最關鍵的核心還是要怎麼樣去強化司法體系的公正性找回人民的信任感立法院討論法院組織法修改不是為了製造對立而是希望能夠大家一起"},{"start":6295.854,"end":6319.473,"text":"集思廣益共同找到一條讓正義被看見當事人被保護那社會也可以信任司法的一個平衡方案台灣是言論自由非常成熟的社會那人民是有權來看司法怎麼運作但這個透明也不能變成全民公審的審判場所以因此我們期待司法院在制度設計上可以還是要再開放一點"},{"start":6320.618,"end":6334.574,"text":"在所謂的態度上以及方法上多走一步提出更平衡的一個司法改革方向能夠找到一個兩邊都能夠兼顧的一個中道之路以上 謝謝"},{"start":6338.289,"end":6365.956,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員確實提到確實這種高度爭議及時廣義的接下來我們請雲林科技大學法律系教授楊智傑楊教授主席好各位好我是雲林科技大學楊智傑那在2017年思改國是會議在第四組討論這個法庭直播的時候我也是受邀報告美國制度的專家"},{"start":6367.975,"end":6395.418,"text":"那麼反對的人都有提到說好像美國聯邦沒有開放德國日本沒有開放所以我們就不開放那事實上開放的國家真的很多了美國各州都是開放加拿大澳大利亞紐西蘭南非巴西那歐盟國家重視各自保護所以大家關心的隱私問題歐盟國家是不是都不開放呢待會會說明荷蘭義大利也是開放當然他們會去解決怎麼樣顧及證人"},{"start":6397.725,"end":6424.961,"text":"的隱私問題烏克蘭哈薩克中國大陸還有大部分的國際法庭事實省的部分我講的都是事實省都是開放的難道這些開放轉播的國家都影響審判公正都不重視當事人證人隱私他們當然也重視所以在開放的同時會有許多限制一般而言這些國家都不會開放家事案件兒童案件"},{"start":6426.284,"end":6445.977,"text":"涉及性案件的轉播所以剛剛很多專家擔心家事案件事實上美國各州從來沒有轉播過家事離婚案件的轉播各位也許聽過強尼逮捕案件那是誹謗案件那不是家事案件那麼他也都授予法官有裁量權"},{"start":6447.657,"end":6474.779,"text":"那我相信現在在場各位法官都這麼反對那當法官你們行使裁量權的時候你們自己去衡量這個是不是能夠轉播的嘛那我以下呢快速介紹各國美國聯邦法院現在也是慢慢開放例如說最高法院以及部分聯邦區聯邦巡迴區下的聯邦案件都允許錄音然後事後轉播出錄音但不准許影像"},{"start":6475.834,"end":6503.586,"text":"那州法院的部分目前為止45個州法院全部開放申請不是說全部轉播你來申請法官裁定允許2017年私改國事會議的時候我做專家報告的時候當時只有44個州現在多一個州45個州那麼特別講幾個州佛羅里達州為什麼要講它因為它是美國第一個全面開放"},{"start":6504.502,"end":6529.247,"text":"然後馬上就有人質疑說這個有違憲像剛剛部分先進說有違憲說違反公正審判結果達到美國最大法院美國最大法院1981年牽扯到佛羅里達州這個案他說沒有證據證明開放排名轉播會影響陪審團或者法官的公正審判"},{"start":6531.619,"end":6556.413,"text":"當然一樣有一些限制啦不是完全沒有限制那麼加州現在也是最開放包括加州所屬的第九巡迴法院是全面開放全面開放轉播的當然也都要申請法官也會裁定限制那麼美國以外的先進官方剛剛列很多但加拿大也算比較先進他也是40省都可以申請開放"},{"start":6559.686,"end":6576.233,"text":"最重要的是歐盟國家因為歐盟國家非常重視個人資料保護我們台灣其實沒那麼重視但是他也開放那他在開放之後制定的相關的行政命令裡面"},{"start":6577.776,"end":6591.737,"text":"他也要考量到對被告證人鑑定人的隱私保障所以他會整個案件開放但是如果要轉播被告證人鑑定人的影音他要遵循他的同意"},{"start":6593.137,"end":6622.109,"text":"那荷蘭是稍微限縮一點如果證人、鑑定人完全不同意那就不能但是被告的部分縱使被告不同意聲音仍可以播出那其餘的人法官、檢察官、律師的辯論都可以播出那義大利比荷蘭更多一點它也是法官同意特別重大社會案件的時候可以播出但考量到"},{"start":6624.585,"end":6648.658,"text":"被告的隱私他也問說被告同不同意被告不同意的話不能轉播影像但錄音可以播出那證人鑑定人對不起我修正這個證人鑑定人就是問他同不同意那不同意的話就是都不能播出對不起我有一個"},{"start":6649.875,"end":6678.45,"text":"比較表整理 抱歉我可能剛剛有點說錯因為義大利跟荷蘭有稍微的不同那麼我們剛剛提到說我們知道歐盟國家非常重視個人資料保護所以也許我們法律界很多留德的會覺得說可能是不會同意開放但荷蘭 義大利也受歐盟這些各自保護很強硬的各自保護的約束但他還是開放了為什麼 因為有公義性"},{"start":6679.795,"end":6698.529,"text":"今天不是只有這個個人私意的問題有公益性公益性大於個人私意的時候可以轉放那比較義大利荷蘭呢義大利是稍微開放一點他就被告的部分他如果法院決定轉播了不用得到同意就可以錄影但是證人鑑定人被害人等"},{"start":6699.289,"end":6725.199,"text":"都要得到同意不能得到同意的話不能錄影像但是可以錄音然後也可以把錄音播出那麼荷蘭剛剛講說稍微限縮一點尤其證人、鑑定人、被害人等他不同意的話就是這個錄影影像都不能播出但是其他的法庭活動參與者法官、律師、檢察官都是不用得到他同意的好那麼回到說"},{"start":6727.827,"end":6755.911,"text":"法庭活動雖然大家現在關心的是一些個人隱私的侵害但是它還是有正當的目的要去追求的包括確保筆錄公正確保審判公正讓人民滿足知的權利教育公眾各位可能認為人民知的權利不重要但實際上在美國一系列案子就認為說法庭之所以要開放就是為了滿足人民知的權利而且它並不是一個不重要的公共利益"},{"start":6757.783,"end":6786.012,"text":"讓公義跟私利權衡所以受影響的私人權利私人的權利包括私人受公正審判的權利也就是我們講的正當程序還有當事人隱私 當事人證人隱私還有審判其他參與者的也許他的一個社會觀感但是我們剛剛提到就是說佛羅里達州全面開放的時候有一個當事人就打案子打到最高法院最高法院說沒有辦法證明"},{"start":6788.12,"end":6814.612,"text":"法庭轉播就會影響陪審員的判斷就會影響法官的判斷我相信各位在場的法官都自認為不會受到媒體報導的影響都會做出獨立公正的判斷那麼證人的隱私被告證人的隱私當然都很重要但是重要我們可以做一些調和我們可以做適度的限制像荷蘭義大利的方式"},{"start":6816.565,"end":6840.391,"text":"當然也排除一些家事案件 兒童案件 性相關案件那作為調和 憲法的討論是公義跟私義的調和而不是說就全部禁止當然講了這些 並不是說民眾黨所提出的草案沒問題其實也是有一些問題那以下我也是提出一些修正建議"},{"start":6842.042,"end":6869.045,"text":"第一個這個草案所提出轉播申請的他條文寫是由被告申請或依職權但是大部分的國家都是由媒體提出申請某程度他不認為這是一個被告的權利比較多是滿足人民知的權利由媒體提出申請而媒體提出申請有多家媒體提出申請的時候法院會裁定你們去協調最後只准許一家"},{"start":6869.963,"end":6896.857,"text":"那麼這個時候就會也解決了剛剛有人擔心的財政的問題因為這個轉播的成本不是由法院來付所以這個建議改而媒體申請第二個 當然大家都很關心說家事案件 兒童案件自然人的私人糾紛性相關案件那麼雖然它原來的條文強調要"},{"start":6899.418,"end":6923.375,"text":"重大公共利益社會矚目案件照理講應該可能排除但是其實也不完全排除因為社會矚目案件也可能包括某些私人的糾紛是社會矚目案件所以當然建議說如果真的要排除這些反對者疑慮把某些涉及自然人的糾紛或性相關案件明確把它排除會比較好"},{"start":6924.943,"end":6945.458,"text":"那再來一點就是說不是說開放不播送就完全毫無限制各位如果有願意去看美國各州或這些國家所有開放他都說法官可以做適當的限制包括剛剛講說我雖然整庭開放但證人鑑定人受害人的部分我要求要做適當的限制"},{"start":6946.843,"end":6963.574,"text":"所以應該要把那個適當方式後面加幾個字適當限制而且違反限制呢應該要加一個裁罰的規定確實最後就是其實我們判決書的公開全面公開才是最侵害人民隱私的大家應該更關注這個問題謝謝大家"},{"start":6966.411,"end":6978.467,"text":"好 謝謝楊教授這個正反觀點其實都足夠大家來一起討論接下來我們請台灣大學法律系科格中科教授"},{"start":6987.45,"end":6997.45,"text":"主席還有各位在會這個會場的各位女士先生大家好我簡單大概報告一下關於這個直播議題的討論"},{"start":7001.665,"end":7022.817,"text":"首先其實前面還有一個是關於死刑評議部的這個問題因為我時間上來不及寫到上面去根據我們1130憲判第8號判決的這個看法我想死刑評議部是否應該改成比較永久保存這個我個人比較我也支持贊成這個看法因為這也是為了配合"},{"start":7023.277,"end":7050.738,"text":"大概憲法法庭做成的死刑的判決這個部分那其實我們現行的制度上面當然一般的資料檔案保存都有檔案法相關規範那這個部分我想因為比較就直接回答了那個剛剛那個問題那當然我們本次公聽會比較大的問題點應該是在關於法庭直播這個問題上面那剛剛其實集會與會的先進不管是贊成或部分的贊成或是做一些配套"},{"start":7051.837,"end":7076.51,"text":"或者是反對的意見那我大概就基本上做一些這個關於這個法庭直播的一些主張跟理由上的討論的說明首先第一個大概是說從法庭公開做一貫性的延伸要求特別是說法庭公開因為我們也不也有所謂的延伸法庭這樣一個概念是不是可以就再進一步再更公開一點也就是可以讓"},{"start":7077.951,"end":7092.265,"text":"這個不特定的人可以透過法庭公開活動的這個聲音或影像的錄製來做進一步的這個要求那待會我會大概簡單跟各位說一下其實法庭公開並不是指直播公開因為它那個意義是不一樣的"},{"start":7093.266,"end":7115.563,"text":"那另外第二件事情是關於人民對司法有知情權這一點完全我相信只要把司法作為國家權利之一他在這個人民對國家的各項權利的運作當然他有這個所謂的知情權只是我們必須要去進一步去了解到這個知情權是否要去探索個人的隱私"},{"start":7116.784,"end":7134.551,"text":"也就是說因為我們先不講憲法法庭這一種所謂的規範憲法審查這樣的一個情況通常在普通法院或行政法院裡面的這個訴訟案件的審理它一定是涉及到個案個案裡面的事實呈現透過證據資料去呈現事實"},{"start":7137.412,"end":7166.852,"text":"那這個事實跟證據資料的這個呈現基本上我們就可以去探索個案裡面的相關人的個別的資訊或隱私當然參與法庭也會有他的肖像的這個問題那簡單來講就是你的一個所謂對國家公權力的知情權限可不可以再進一步去延伸到我想要透過國家公權力特別在司法活動裡面所產生出來的相關資料我想要去探索我想要知道那個人包括"},{"start":7167.732,"end":7183.949,"text":"因為這一次提案的內容裡面也包括了逃漏稅資料所以我想要知道你賺多少錢我可能可以透過這個司法活動可以這樣延伸出去嗎這個我相信也是這個在至少從學界的角度來講可不可以延伸到這一點應該"},{"start":7185.49,"end":7201.686,"text":"值得再進一步去加以探討那最後面當然是談到所謂推廣法治教育或提升法律信賴這個問題其實也是回到前面兩個問題去做一個說明那我想我基本上大概先做一個鋪陳那這一次的民眾黨團所提出來意見裡面這些大概就是從"},{"start":7202.307,"end":7229.865,"text":"那個他的這個草案的立法理由裡面的說明所以我大致上把他稍微做了一些簡單的整理這一次的關於這個法院組織法的修法的相關的意見然後他的相關條文也是這個我這裡面也特別提到一個裁定德維抗告這個這個條文規定因為其實這個問題我待會會進一步去敘述他基本上很大程度上面來講我們可能大概整個程序的進行也可能就卡在這個地方"},{"start":7230.185,"end":7252.342,"text":"因為你只要得為抗告那整體後面的程序基本上你不可能立刻現在就進行了就像法官的迴避也是一樣有同樣的這個道理跟性質存在好那大概簡單的去整理一下草案提出的內容雖然他已經進覆二讀了但我們就看他草案裡面的內容他提到了關於法律省原則上公開"},{"start":7253.443,"end":7278.698,"text":"直播公開啦因為他的假設前提就是法律省是一個法律的解釋適用的這個過程所以可能比較偏重於是法律法規範的討論而已但例外的如果是涉及國安公共秩序善良風俗或是對參與訴訟之個人造成生命身體隱私或營業秘密這些重大損害這個部分我們就不公開那事實省的相反的原則上不公開但例外可以直播公開"},{"start":7279.699,"end":7296.06,"text":"特別是這裡面草案裡面提到了就是涉及重大公共利益或者是社會矚目案件當然後面他也提到了什麼叫做重大公共利益或者是社會矚目案件我大概待會也會去做簡單的說明那另外就是程序的部分剛剛提"},{"start":7296.4,"end":7311.996,"text":"提到了就是說不管是被告申請或是法院法官依職權裁定而為開放的話當然你相反的如果不開放的話也會一樣這個法院的裁定是得為抗告的這整個的程序那從學理上的角度來講我們先"},{"start":7313.537,"end":7330.687,"text":"說一下什麼叫法庭公開因為這個是第一個命題那個非常重要的問題就法庭公開到底可不可以延伸到所謂的直播公開這件事情那這個地方很抱歉我當然是借用因為我們自己的法秩序裡面可能沒有比較直接的定義法條至少沒有直接定義那我們就以德國"},{"start":7332.069,"end":7355.747,"text":"聯邦法院的這個定義這個是刑事庭的一個定義他簡單來講就是說法院在法庭空間容許範圍內他有那個義務要提供給任何人讓他可以以觀眾的身份進入到法庭來參與聽聞法庭審判活動的這個可能性我還是要強調這個可能性因為理由回到就是法院是在"},{"start":7356.407,"end":7380.159,"text":"提供法庭空間的容許範圍內也就是在那個法庭上面來講當然物理上的延伸是有可能再進一步延伸比如說我在旁邊架一個同步同步的但是他是在另外一個法庭裡面那我要講這件事情是因為其實我們在COVER的時候就有類似的這個做法因為COVER的時候大家沒有辦法到現場來因為"},{"start":7382.18,"end":7398.921,"text":"比如說交通管制或是人不太能夠出行那這個時候在那個延伸法庭裡面其實它是必須是在一個可控制的範圍內因為我們都會知道就是說當證人或當事人在陳述的時候我必須要確保他陳述這個的內容是出於他的自由的意願"},{"start":7399.702,"end":7414.218,"text":"那這個場所其實延伸法庭它還是回到那個實體可控制的範圍內這個概念裡面而不是我再講一次直播放送是它是一個法庭沒有辦法控制比如說我在路邊的電視牆"},{"start":7416,"end":7433.972,"text":"這個你根本不知道誰經過或誰聽到這個東西就更不用去講說這個如果我在現場他可以直接在這邊錄放他會在自己的社群或是在所謂的公眾媒體裡面去進一步的去做傳送這樣的一個意義這也是我們講法庭公開審理這件事情"},{"start":7435.033,"end":7464.353,"text":"他的原始最初是來自於特別是在以前的司法作為國家公權力的一部分配合國家公權力特別是行政的部門的這種公權力的行使有所謂的政治上的秘密審判那前面其實與外的先進大概有簡單的提到過說法庭公開這個的概念的來源是來自於以前的秘密審判對抗秘密審判讓每一個國家的人民都可以在司法活動裡面獲得被"},{"start":7465.954,"end":7492.411,"text":"純粹就是單純扣過整個法庭的審判活動呈現相關證據資料事實的認定以及法律解釋使用的結果來做一個最終的一個確切的判斷也正因為這樣子一個問題我們這個地方也順帶一句提到其實我們現在在法庭公開底下裡面也是容許一部分的在法庭裡面做一些錄音的這個動作特別是書記官可能為了要輔助他去做相關的這個"},{"start":7494.732,"end":7513.958,"text":"這個筆錄讓他能夠更完整那他會有做這一些的錄音的這個工作那這個部分不是把他直接拿來當作法庭直播這個是輔助法庭公開這個活動本身的一個重要的一個活動之一而已那也因為這樣子我大概先因為前面沒有特別去講到什麼叫直播公開"},{"start":7514.838,"end":7537.648,"text":"我大概當然這也不是法律定義啊這只是我們在這個地方去將它講就是法庭直播公開的意思可能可以我們可以把它理解為就是將這些法庭審理的活動透過社群因為各位都知道比如說Facebook或是Line上面都會有一個特定的我們自己的特定的群體或者是做公眾媒體的這樣子的一個公開的一個方式"},{"start":7538.228,"end":7556.075,"text":"如果假設這樣一個法庭直播公開那它可能就是可以被定義為是透過審判活動由社群或是公開裡面去做直接的公開當然你也可以進一步去理解是說我先把它涉入下來將來再來去社群或是在公眾媒體裡面去做公開"},{"start":7556.955,"end":7578.383,"text":"這個當然也是可能這被理解為是這樣那法庭直播公開這個滿足這樣的一個知情權當然這個會是一個很看起來是非常正當的理由那我們剛剛在一開始的時候也就要提到就是說我們這個公眾知情權對司法活動的探知對司法活動的監督可不可能去進一步影響到透過司法活動"},{"start":7578.783,"end":7594.517,"text":"我們去知悉的個人的隱私社會連結誰跟誰之間有所謂的往來或者是誰跟誰之間特別是我們之前的司法審判活動你們都知道了特別是在媒體報導底下裡面的所謂的獵巫或者是公眾輿論審判的問題"},{"start":7596.198,"end":7612.972,"text":"那由於時間緣故所以我大概把它稍微做一下簡單整理大概也只能是跟各位說明一下所謂的這個司法審判的這個監督跟透明化我們自己目前就至少在體制上面來講"},{"start":7613.632,"end":7630.291,"text":"包括裁判法官的申請監督判決理由的實質說理還有上訴審的事實審的上訴審或是法律審的上訴審基本上這也是讓司法他在個別的審判活動裡面可以受到外界監督的一個非常重要的一個體制上的一個手段"},{"start":7632.173,"end":7648.664,"text":"剛剛有幾位先進有提到這個那這個是舊的數據資料這是2017年106年國事會議做成以後當時司法院所做的估計要花多少錢其實我不知道因為這個還是要實際上如果假設這個法律要通過的話大概那個如果要推動這個可能到時候要請"},{"start":7649.164,"end":7675.106,"text":"那個民眾黨能夠多支持可能司法院還要再多花一點錢因為這個錢一定必然還是要由司法院來出來它不太可能會變成是由直播因為這個是如果假設對法院有提出這樣一個要求那我還是講一下說涉及重大公共利益或社會矚目案件因為在民眾黨團提的裡面大概有這幾個事件那我前面稍微補充一下因為這個是法院組織法的修法"},{"start":7675.706,"end":7701.314,"text":"但我們同樣是屬於法院組織其實我們有好幾個法律不是只有法院組織法而已我們還有行政法院組織法我們還有制裁及商業組織法那制裁及商業組織法第38條是不能公開的所以現在如果我們這樣其實我不太能知道就是說因為稅務案件它是行政法院行政法院組織法裡面那行政法院組織法本身對公開這件事也是沒有明白的規定那我如果說"},{"start":7702.114,"end":7722.271,"text":"假如說以民眾黨提出來這個討論案件的話我不太就是說重大公共利益這件事情到底公職人員選舉官員或是民意代表的貪污受賄或重大經濟犯罪這個都是在草案裡面提到的逃漏稅捐其實逃漏稅捐可能不是適用法院組織法因為逃漏稅捐案件是在行政法院組織法的適用案件裡面"},{"start":7723.272,"end":7750.337,"text":"什麼叫社會矚目案件可能凱凱那個事情大家都會知道或是高雄的有一個連續殺人用分屍的方式去殺人這個大家會覺得眾人矚目不論外遇這個民事案件裡面其實也可能會有涉及當然我們還是要強調家事事件法少年事件法其實已經對他自己本身事件的處理程序裡面已經有不公開的明文規定還有剛剛提到的制裁及商業法院的組織法裡面也本身對他們的"},{"start":7753.438,"end":7772.766,"text":"這個審判程序是不公開的這個部分還是必須要去做一定程度上的調和那法律審的部分我提一下法律審不是一定不會談到事實因為所有的東西都是必須要透過個案的這個事實的描述去含涉到法律的這個構成要件的過程"},{"start":7773.126,"end":7799.351,"text":"那這個裡面的事實描述裡面藉由法院之口我們大概就可以知道這個人逃了多少他透過什麼方式去逃漏構成了所謂的詐訴或其他不正方法或者是在個案裡面我們認為他侵害了什麼什麼樣的一個權利這個都是一個涵設過程就是透過事實的描述去具體去對法律構成要件的解釋適用的一個過程所以如果是涉及到個案的部分"},{"start":7800.091,"end":7815.966,"text":"不管是事實審或法律審建議還是審慎為之但如果最後面我們講一件事情說那什麼情況有可能可以做法庭上的直播呢那個憲法法庭的法規範憲法審查的程序是可以因為法規範憲法審查其實跟國會的"},{"start":7818.829,"end":7836.007,"text":"公開這個比較接近因為國會為什麼公開大家都知道因為現在我們這個國會裡面包括這個都有一些直播的這個可能性那我講說因為憲法法庭裡面它除了關於人民權利救濟程序的這一個"},{"start":7837.168,"end":7863.301,"text":"法規範或是裁判的憲法審查以外那其實這個法規範憲法審查因為比較接近是對立法者或是行政部門對法案本身的一個考量這個是一個立法行程公簽的一個判斷特別在這件事情上面我想希望法庭做法庭直播也可以讓這個方式可以透過一個讓全國民眾比較知道當初的立法"},{"start":7863.541,"end":7871.194,"text":"或者是當初這個考量究竟在現在的時空底下是不是還符合憲法規範一直的要求那我想我們就因為時間緣故我就簡單報告到這裡謝謝"},{"start":7874.377,"end":7899.694,"text":"好 謝謝柯教授我想這部法令 台灣民眾黨的這樣的草案的一個提出其實它法律審的部分它的原則還是公開法律審的時候 那個部分 例外它是不公開事實審的部分它也是原則不公開那例外的部分它才公開只是說這個草案的部分 我們今天就有一點"},{"start":7900.435,"end":7925.573,"text":"比較沒有聚焦啊,他那個90條那個地方就是事實審法院他是講高等法院跟地方法院在審理涉及重大公共利益跟社會矚目案件這個部分啊就比較可惜的我剛剛一直都沒有聽到就是在公開行訴訟之辯論或裁判的宣誓所為之錄音錄影這個部分啊他到底不是全部都是公開播送就是說裁判的宣誓這部分我想大家可能會沒有意見"},{"start":7926.354,"end":7939.788,"text":"那只是說他那個整個在辯論像譬如說法官在指揮訴訟是不是只有辯論這個範圍你如何去做一個特定那我想剛好今天的提案人這個台灣民眾黨我們黃國昌委員也到現場我們接下來請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":7948.091,"end":7955.237,"text":"謝謝主席我很高興我們司法法制委員會的莊委員召開這場公聽會時間還沒開始我現在是要對你講話剛剛莊委員說很高興我來到現場所以你時間要給我多一點嗎"},{"start":7966.437,"end":7983.015,"text":"對每一位來的學者專家都溫柔對待然後你的如果專業意見的提出我們再斟酌好不好好謝謝謝謝莊委員好非常感謝今天所有的學者專家波隆來參加這一場公聘會"},{"start":7984.016,"end":8009.73,"text":"那過去這段時間有一些法官協會、檢察官協會啊律師團體發表的聲明其實我都拜讀過了那裡面我想可能充滿了蠻多的誤會我先簡單跟大家講一下這個是什麼照片這個是英國的最高法院在YT上面現在就有啦在場的每一個人現在打開你們的YT頻道"},{"start":8010.936,"end":8036.512,"text":"就可以看到,這是英國最高法院他們的法庭直播2017年,斯坦國是會議決議的時候,說要推動法庭直播這個是第四分組的會議結論這是第四分組的會議結論當初贊成的委員15個人我很負責任的把當初贊成15個人的頭像都放在這邊"},{"start":8037.899,"end":8052.626,"text":"這些都是我們社會上面敬重的人士有一個特點那個特點就是裡面法律人的比例是非常低的為什麼法律人的比例是非常低的每一個受過法律專業訓練的人我常常講要學會謙卑"},{"start":8058.772,"end":8069.236,"text":"不是法律專業的傲慢可以凌駕人民的意志當然裡面也有一些我們敬重的法律學者像李念祖大律師像嚴絕安老師"},{"start":8071.807,"end":8094.477,"text":"當初有關於隱私權討論的問題其實都納在考慮的範圍當中那這個是當初2017年所作決議的內容司法院到目前為止只有憲法法庭其他的部分毫無下文所謂其他的部分毫無下文包括最高法院的大法庭"},{"start":8095.865,"end":8104.915,"text":"那事實上當然就不用講了連最高法院啊都毫無下文那有人說法庭直播會造成國家巨大財政的負擔"},{"start":8106.338,"end":8131.735,"text":"剛剛也有學者專家問到這件事情禮拜一司法院的副秘書長跑來台灣民眾黨黨團找我要說明這個法案我欣然同意我坐下來準備跟他好好談法條的構成要件我們的司法院是不是有進一步的高見認為說我們不要給法官這麼大的裁量權我們條文要不要定得剛性一點"},{"start":8133.328,"end":8160.978,"text":"什麼叫做條定的剛性一點啊 我簡單講目前法院組織法原則公開審理 例外不公開審理請問例外不公開審理的要件是怎麼設定的非常的抽象為什麼非常的抽象我們交給法官在具體的個案當中加以裁量那針對我們所提出來的草案我當天問副秘書長說架設一個法庭這樣子一個波要多少錢一百九十幾萬"},{"start":8162.694,"end":8183.255,"text":"我們的最高法院一年行言之辯論的有多少案子我國的最高法院一年行言之辯論有多少案子我跟大家報告啊不到十件不到十件包括大法庭包括民事訴訟包括刑事訴訟一年不到十件"},{"start":8185.343,"end":8200.4,"text":"設一個法庭的設備他說一百九十幾萬我算兩百萬轉播要錢我也把它加進去司法院回去打一打算盤啊你們當初在推人民參與審判的時候你們光廣告費花多少錢真的在推人民直接參與審判光廣告費花多少錢"},{"start":8208.035,"end":8224.707,"text":"一本一本交給民視一年都幾千萬幾千萬在執行的怎麼會沒有錢很有錢啊現在有人在法在國會裡面造謠說要好幾百億我的老天啊這個是造謠還是問政啊"},{"start":8227.537,"end":8252.702,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團我們提出的案子法律省的部分我們參佐了司法院當初所提出來的初稿原則公開 例外不公開那為什麼例外不公開就是大家擔心了嘛有涉及到國家安全嘛會造成個人生命身體隱私嘛會妨礙營業秘密嘛這個時候就不要公開啊我把決定的權限交給誰交給法官啊交給法官啊"},{"start":8256.298,"end":8264.324,"text":"現在好像討論到每一個法律省的案件一定會牽涉到事實一定會牽涉到個人的隱私我必須要老實講在討論問題的時候這不是一個負責任的態度我為什麼這樣講我自己當過被告我也當過證人"},{"start":8281.735,"end":8304.176,"text":"我希望法庭能夠公開是什麼在法庭活動當中應該要受到公眾監督的法官跟檢察官是什麼在行使職權的當然不是所有的案子社會矚目的案子才會發生這樣的事情我不管在當被告或在當檢察官的時候我非常驚訝的是什麼"},{"start":8305.256,"end":8327.842,"text":"非常驚訝的是說我們刑事訴訟不是改採當事人改良式的當事人進行主義以檢察官在法庭上面的論告提證他必須要負舉證責任證明我有罪但是我自己法庭活動的經驗是什麼我因為集會遊行法的案子被起訴過接受審判過我也去當過證人"},{"start":8329.622,"end":8336.038,"text":"我去當證人的時候 我當庭作證說那個極有法的案子的主謀根本不是現在這個被告 主謀是我主謀是我"},{"start":8340.39,"end":8368.806,"text":"結果發生什麼事聽完我的證詞了以後檢察官應該要趕快起來辯駁啊說不對不對證人你虛偽陳述你講的不對結果那法官問說請問檢察官有沒有什麼意見要補充因為辯護人傳我嘛他們主結問檢察官要反對結問嘛結果檢察官站起來我沒有任何問題那他如果沒有任何問題的話那代表你們當初起訴就起訴錯人了嘛"},{"start":8369.918,"end":8397.472,"text":"最後進行補充結問的是誰是法官跳下來補充結問這是我當證人的經驗我當被告的經驗一模一樣我當被告的經驗一模一樣那你說會侵害到什麼隱私我老實講我不知道侵害到什麼隱私但我必須要說有沒有案子會涉及到個人的隱私婦女權益的保護兒少的保護當然很重要全部把它排除在外嘛"},{"start":8398.618,"end":8422.985,"text":"我沒有寫一個剛性的法條喔說這一定要直播 沒有我們為什麼要權衡公眾的利益為什麼要權衡隱私權的保護為什麼要權衡最後的營業秘密我把權力都交給法官了耶讓法官在個案當中去裁量目前要不要行公開審理有誰裁量 有法官裁量在卷證資料裡面"},{"start":8425.237,"end":8450.399,"text":"當事人公開的部分 就有關於卷證資料要不要限制或是禁止他閱覽特定部分誰裁量 法官裁量 刑事訴訟 民事訴訟全部都是做這樣子的規範我們為什麼做這樣子條文的設計 理由在這裡如果各位先進覺得說相較於目前法院組織法 針對不公開審理我們的要件太抽象"},{"start":8451.932,"end":8474.432,"text":"相對於我們目前卷證不公開我們設定的要件太抽象我們敞開心胸跟各界請教歡迎大家提出具體的修正建議這也是那天司法院到黨團來我希望跟他們交換建議的結果司法院來就是他沒有要跟我討論法條因為從法律審到事實審司法院全面反對"},{"start":8475.493,"end":8503.349,"text":"司法院全面反對主席站起來 抱歉夠兩分鐘我很快把他帶完因為今天我的PPT我要列在會議記錄當中我帶大家看這個是台灣人民對於法庭公開支持度超過七成五支持超過七成五支持大概兩成五反對的我相信裡面很多法律人這我都尊重這我都尊重台灣民眾黨的支持者比例最高96%"},{"start":8505.57,"end":8522.711,"text":"國民黨84%笑得很高興的莊銳雄委員你們民進黨的支持者73%你如果覺得我做了這個民調不對沒有關係歡迎大家貢獻勞力時間費用一起出錢來做民調問問看台灣人民大家想要什麼"},{"start":8523.972,"end":8543.155,"text":"結果我們推這個以後有檢察官團體說什麼說唯一推動法庭直播的就是中華人民共和國我老實講建清檢凱裡面很多檢察官我認識我基本上還蠻尊重他們的法律專業但我沒有想到會漏到用抹紅的方式來進行公共政策的討論"},{"start":8544.235,"end":8570.495,"text":"用抹紅的方式來進行公共政策的討論這是不負責任的政客才會幹的事情我們的檢改團體怎麼會做這種事呢所以呢他們跟我聯絡了以後我就說怎麼會有這種低級又無恥的討論方式結果建清檢改的檢察官說欸學長你不要介意啊這不是我們講的啊這是媒體自己下標啊一條龍的操作配合得非常好"},{"start":8571.716,"end":8599.522,"text":"原來推動法庭直播也要被抹紅那我們來看一下這個是我剛在大家看過的這是英國最高法院這個是什麼這是英國上訴法院都是法律省啊他們走的比美國還前面走的比美國還前面所以現在英國是什麼英國也跟中華人民共和國看齊嗎英國最高法院英國上訴法院都要被抹紅嗎"},{"start":8601.257,"end":8627.77,"text":"加州法院法庭直播的規定維吉尼亞州州法法庭直播的規定到今年2025年美國聯邦國會議員繼續推出什麼Sunshine in the courtroom法庭陽光法案大家討論的隱私權的保護他們裡面有沒有規範 有啊那授權法院去做啊你擔心證人臉被認出來那你就把他臉遮蔽啊"},{"start":8629.926,"end":8650.912,"text":"大家如果有參加過法庭活動都知道我們法庭直播的時候像我每次去公開法庭我看得到證人的臉我看不到我看得到他的後腦勺如果連看他的後腦勺都有疑慮的話那沒有關係啊把他後腦勺給mark起來這些都是司法院在具體在進行操作的時候怎麼樣針對隱私權怎麼樣針對營業秘密做細緻的保護"},{"start":8656.818,"end":8669.24,"text":"最後其實法庭直播在我國有發生過啊2000年蘇建河岸高等法院開庭更審的時候全程轉播他全程轉播在外面還放一個電視牆"},{"start":8671.603,"end":8693.481,"text":"記者進不去這我同意記者進不去因為你不知道記者攝影大哥的鏡頭會take什麼他搞不好一直take那個法官的臉一直take那個檢察官的臉讓那個法官跟檢察官遭受到重大的心理壓力這樣不好所以他就完全統一一個鏡頭就是法院裡面所take的鏡頭怎麼取緝"},{"start":8694.902,"end":8721.173,"text":"讓我們的法院決定訊號搬到外面來連接一台電視機這台電視機大家有沒有看到一群攝影大哥在電視機前面看那個司法院自己直播的四十省這不是法律省喔四十省電視的轉播然後用攝影機在那邊拍那個電視然後出來了中華電視公司在我國有做過四十省的直播出了什麼事發生了什麼事"},{"start":8725.271,"end":8752.702,"text":"誰的隱私被侵害我必須要說在具體個案的操作上更細膩的去保護人民的隱私權不願意不願意出現的這個我們都同意現實上也都可以操作但是在推動這個立法方向我完全沒有辦法贊成司法院現在連法律省都說回去了他不是只有事實省不肯"},{"start":8754.165,"end":8780.428,"text":"連法律省都說回去法律省負擔有很重嗎我再跟大家講一次我國最高法院目前行延遲辯論的案子一年有幾件十件都沒有十件都沒有讓大家聽聽嘛聽聽我們的法官跟辯護人在交換意見的時候到底是在協同發現真實發現法律還是有上對下教訓的方式怒斥"},{"start":8782.475,"end":8790.141,"text":"下面的當事人跟辯護人這個本來就是人民在參與審判的過程當中一個非常重要的民主前途謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們請真理大學法律系教授吳景清主任來發言發言以前黃國昌委員剛好要走出去"},{"start":8812.099,"end":8831.589,"text":"幾乎他的案子我都會去反對他但是反對到最後讓他去提出修正案這是很好的這是很扎實的我們也都不是為反對而反對他剛也提了一席意見倒也值得大家聚焦來討論接下來我們請吳主任的發言主席各位大家好"},{"start":8832.762,"end":8861.781,"text":"那這個我今天聽完一輪包括黃國昌委員剛才那個論述我一個感想就是說今天我們討論的包括前面提到還有包括我等一下要提到的跟2017年司改國是會議各位去翻一下正反兩邊的意見是不是都一樣這個是我第一點提出台灣司法改革的悲哀"},{"start":8863.338,"end":8880.695,"text":"經過了幾年 八年我們還在討論同樣的問題而且那個政法裡面論述是一樣的各位不相信去檢視一下然後第二個 剛才有提到有一些大部分我發現到只要是在司法圈裡面工作的人基本上都反對"},{"start":8882.076,"end":8896.788,"text":"我聽起來是這個樣子喔那最後我想到十幾年前司法院在推那個人民參與審判制度一開始提到的是官審制那各位一樣去檢視一下當初邦發司法院喔"},{"start":8897.889,"end":8911.585,"text":"為什麼一開始要提官審制那個反對的理由跟今天反對法庭直播的理由各位去看一看有沒有相似啊我就不講了那首先第一個是針對今天好像大家比較少提的這個"},{"start":8914.046,"end":8939.974,"text":"評議部的那個保存的問題啦那我也贊成啦 翁委員這個這個提案是沒有什麼問題但是我要提的是說這個在法院組織法裡面針對呢那個死刑判決的這個評議的部分他只要死刑評議這個要永久保存 這個沒有問題齁那可是呢 難道只有我這裡提到的 難道只有那個評議的那個意見要永久保存嗎"},{"start":8941.78,"end":8965.377,"text":"包括有關死刑案件所有的卷證那是不是也應該要永久保存那這個又涉及到一個一樣是2017年我又再指責一下我們有誰現在去檢驗2017年死感規範我們到底有多少達到的包括那個刑事這裡會連接到刑事證據保全的問題到現在我們有法治化了沒經過了8年欸"},{"start":8967.873,"end":8996.306,"text":"所以這個問題應該是連結到還是回到思感國際所以當初也是有一個決議書那個有關刑事證據啊 卷宗啊那個保存的問題啦應該要配合那邊去啦尤其是那其餘的那個評議的內容還有一點更重要啦就是說目前這個裁判確定以後關於可以申請越來評議意見的啦目前僅限於在裁判確定了以後才可以去申請我要越這個"},{"start":8997.706,"end":9025.467,"text":"評議的內容那主體是這一些那現在就有一個問題了就緊接著就連結到第二個問題就是那個直播的問題那關於那個裁判評議的這個內容因為現在判決確定以後這些人 這些主體才能去申請這個月欄那現在就有一個問題喔那裁判評議的這個內容是不是也應該是屬於公開審理的一個部分就是說他也要公開啊"},{"start":9027.071,"end":9029.433,"text":"這個可能是我連結到下面一個問題"},{"start":9044.189,"end":9057.134,"text":"這個公開審理基本上直接公開大概現在比較沒有直接公開就是目前我們看到一般公開當事人可以到法庭判定那今天的重點不在這裡今天重點在間接公開的部分那你說現在有沒有間接公開"},{"start":9058.639,"end":9081.135,"text":"這個老實講 我覺得目前當然是有因為我們允許媒體可以針對整個審判過程去做報導甚至做素描 甚至做審判者同意也可以錄音然後做事後的報導還有或者是說事後把它公佈到網路上面那當然今天問題比較大的是現場立即的直播"},{"start":9084.232,"end":9088.682,"text":"因為我這個 按得很用力喔好 欸 怎麼又不見了"},{"start":9096.992,"end":9122.225,"text":"那目前我們有的就剛才有提到憲法法庭這個是已經止步而且他是take down每個人所以這個是目前最直接那一般因為是屬於憲法層次的一個討論可能大家認為個案沒關不過剛才聽柯教授這樣講好像他也有可能涉及到個案那最高法院我昨天再去上網去看一下最高法院目前針對言辭辯論的話他是有把他放上去的"},{"start":9122.805,"end":9150.228,"text":"但是呢 跟2017年那個王德路那個原住民的獵槍的問題一開始跟我昨天上網去看的喔 是不是沒有差別就是說他只有聚焦在這個PPTPower Point 然後聲音的傳播然後不去tag這些人好 那這個是目前最高法院針對原子辯論的那事實上就是剛才黃委員提到的就是說 欸 這個很難想像 2000年喔老實講齁 目前不管哪一種 哪一種方式的直播"},{"start":9151.189,"end":9176.169,"text":"都沒有法律依據耶我為什麼都可以做所以這個就是很奇怪因為2000年他是把他電視牆擺在外面那當時有沒有禁止媒體說我可不可以把他拍下來放在電視沒有喔當時是很開放的喔所以各位真的很難想像2000年的時候針對蘇靜安我們就已經在做直播類似一種跟現在我們講的那個直播差不多的形式耶"},{"start":9184.925,"end":9188.608,"text":"目前還有後來就是在疫情期間疫情期間因為當時不能群聚所以我們當時就有所謂的遠距開庭"},{"start":9199.915,"end":9221.972,"text":"好 那各位就要想一下當時的遠距開庭當然是對當事人公開啦事後你也可以去取得這些當事人可以去月券也可以拿到這些全程的錄音錄影但是現在就有一個問題了各位 在疫情期間那個時候的遠距開庭有沒有線上直播可以讓所有的民眾上去看"},{"start":9223.84,"end":9242.786,"text":"市場是沒有的所以老實講當然這個現在已經過了但是我們不知道哪一天會碰到同樣的情況所以我們也要思考這個問題在當時是沒有對一般民眾公開的就是說我不能上去只針對當事人好 那基本上我們可以再做一個比較同樣的疫情期間美國發生的案件"},{"start":9244.156,"end":9262.257,"text":"這個就是弗洛伊德案那這個就是一個黑人去買東西然後呢這個可能他用了什麼假鈔然後呢就報警警察來了以後就怎樣把他壓地然後就贊成他死掉了這件事情那我們就要看這個例子來這個呢他是全程直播的"},{"start":9262.797,"end":9289.971,"text":"像這類案件在美國我看一下它是陪審制度嘛好 那它永遠就放在那邊好 那我們時間的關係我後來去查一下在當時它的直播方式它的直播方式是蠻開放的來 它最主要有兩個電視台去做所謂的直播一個是NBC就是國家廣播電台另外一個是PBS相當有點類似我們的公共電視好 那我這裡有看出來"},{"start":9291.932,"end":9307.908,"text":"在NBC這兩個都有在YouTube直播各位可以上網去查這個NBC它是同時上線是有100萬人然後PBS是20萬人那你要說兩個的差別在哪裡人數多寡以外就是留言板的問題"},{"start":9309.605,"end":9323.434,"text":"那個NBC它有開放留言所以那個留言數非常非常的多但是如果PBS它封閉了留言板它不給你留言這個可能就是這個那我們就要想一個問題這樣的人數喔 不管在哪一個國家都一樣這個當然我們會對賠償員或者是對證人會有影響但是真的有影響嗎"},{"start":9333.612,"end":9352.878,"text":"真的有影響嗎這個判決做出來以後美國人會普遍美國人會認為說這個不公正因為你用了直播嗎好像看起來是沒有所以我是覺得我是贊成我說要贊成法庭直播我可以講100個贊成的理由同樣如果反對直播一樣也可以是100個的反對理由"},{"start":9353.658,"end":9374.246,"text":"那我覺得至少就我而言法庭直播它確實可以促進程序正義嘛那有些在場的這個不管是法官啊檢察官今天沒有人到律師都會害怕所謂的戲劇化的問題我每次聽到這個戲劇化我就覺得怪怪的如果說我們不管是檢審片"},{"start":9376.187,"end":9396.137,"text":"基本上都符合大家對他的一個期待你的專業的期待的話會不會直播你就想要表演嘛那如果你有這種心態的話我覺得是你對你自己本業尊重的問題啦然後再來就是說你的直播會不會什麼什麼一大堆什麼一路審判可是我要問各位啦"},{"start":9397.514,"end":9405.793,"text":"現在這個時代你沒有網路直播媒體對受阻礙案件就不會去報導去描述去批評嗎"},{"start":9408.551,"end":9432.401,"text":"這有什麼差別好 那再來就是證人跟鑑定人的壓力的問題我說齁 這個壓力遠很多啦基本上我只要出庭我就有壓力啦啊 只是說啊加六轉波壓力加多少嘛那我舉一個例子像鑑定人啦齁這個去年我們五月刑事法有新制鑑定的新制實施了以後啦目前各位去看一下刑事的意思鑑定有多少不想去委任的可是現在沒有直播啊"},{"start":9433.035,"end":9450.596,"text":"那怎麼解釋呢 那當然就是對國民法院的影響那最後呢 因為時間我也到了啦所以我的意見是說 剛才一直在提到啦說那個什麼社會重大矚目等等等我是覺得啦 以凱凱案為例啦 大家很關注"},{"start":9451.377,"end":9464.387,"text":"以及緊接著像剛才有提到的高雄的分屍案也即將進入國民法官審判還有明年1月1號我們國民法官也適用到罪行本行10年以上這個就會卡到公務員受賄罪那如果是這樣的話我覺得啦"},{"start":9466.428,"end":9489.718,"text":"光法院執法不夠或許就先從國民法官法開始另外這邊或許可以先從國民法官法這邊去制定呢到底要不要直播的這個規定授權給法官我們可以用國民法第六條嘛第六條它有一個裁定不行的不行國民法官的我們可以配合這一條去做修正然後來由法官聽取大家的意見來決定要不要直播"},{"start":9490.558,"end":9518.589,"text":"那如果在這個法律你這樣規定以後也一樣直接針對國民法官法我也可以設計我怎麼去保護國民法官我怎麼去解消證人跟鑑定人的壓力所以我最後的關注就是說公開審理原則它不是一個封閉的內涵一定要隨著時代跟科技不動的去擴充內容我覺得法庭之波不能保證司法的透明性但我認為絕對可以保持司法的公正性 謝謝"},{"start":9522.904,"end":9528.248,"text":"好 謝謝發言 接下來請紀凱峰律師發言主席"},{"start":9542.301,"end":9564.017,"text":"各位委員各位與會的先進還有老朋友大家早安我是紀凱峰律師我先簡單跟各位自我介紹一下我曾經我其實我是現在是職業律師可是我是去年七月份辭職在辭職之前呢我曾經擔任台北地方法院以及台灣高等法院金融專庭的法官"},{"start":9566.485,"end":9582.632,"text":"我擔任法官的時間大概長達22年不算很長,可是也不算短那我生涯,我任官的生涯當中大概有一半的時間,大概都在處理重金案件那當時台北地院剛成立金融專庭的時候,其實我們是連"},{"start":9584.312,"end":9612.882,"text":"重大社會矚目案件也一起拉進來所以那時候叫重庭專庭我還記得我進台北立院重庭庭過沒多久就收了林義士案所以當時是非常矚目的案件可能現在不要再說各位有些人可能已經忘記了當時我們何一庭收到這個案子所以我非常非常清楚在美光燈下的法官"},{"start":9614.801,"end":9638.312,"text":"甚至後來我們判決了之後我記得大概不是很想要回憶的過去但我記得大概有差不多一個月的時間吧我們三位法官大概都在我可以說是媒體的追殺之下所以我非常非常清楚本來是應該是一個"},{"start":9640.49,"end":9662.167,"text":"純正的審判空間然後在媒體或是美光燈或是全國人民這個算是無差別式的關注之下會受到什麼樣的壓力我非常非常清楚所以我今天在這裡發言 剛才提到這個"},{"start":9665.953,"end":9693.234,"text":"法庭直播制度其實坦白講我也不反對啦我也知道說其實這個司法的公開透明其實是人民因應其判的而且人民對司法的信賴很大程度的確建立在司法的公開透明上而人民對司法的信賴本來就是我們司法具有正當性的基礎可是大家不要忘記我們司法權跟立法權有個很大很大的不一樣"},{"start":9694.554,"end":9718.782,"text":"我們司法權尤其是刑事審判很重要一點就是要避免人民公審或是輿論審判否則讓立法院來審判就好啦我們法官在這個地方其實就是某程度上是有點像反多數決啦就是要避開這個所謂的人民跟或是說輿論的這種壓力我舉個例子齁"},{"start":9722.503,"end":9750.584,"text":"林義士那個案子當然現在還未決我記得好像還未決當年有一個很重要的爭議就是貪污罪條例裡面的公務員收受賄賂罪所以執行職務收受賄賂那個執行職務怎麼去解釋我印象沒錯的話大概有法定職權說或是實質影響力說實質影響力說又分成不同的其他說但是在林義士那個案子裡面這個部分我們何怡婷當時認為是有爭議的"},{"start":9754.281,"end":9772.568,"text":"但是一般輿論認為沒有爭議結果這個案子後來過了好幾年最高法院還開了延遲辯論就辯論到底應該採取哪一說代表什麼意思代表他在法律上確實有爭議啊可是"},{"start":9778.344,"end":9798.352,"text":"當時的輿論就是我們一審法官在審判當中在我看來我們的感覺是輿論認為沒有爭議所以對我們形成了某程度上很大的壓力但是還好啦我們是受過專業訓練的法官專業訓練的意思就是要能夠抵抗住壓力可是你能保證所有的法官都這樣子嗎"},{"start":9799.847,"end":9824.138,"text":"所以我今天其實不僅是一個具有實務經驗法律人的身份也是出於一份對司法制度的深切關懷所以我這邊要深切的呼籲各位委員附帶一提其實我再次強調我並不是反對法庭直播我是覺得這個進步惡毒是有點太快了吧我們今天討論的問題不是應該在委員會討論嗎"},{"start":9830.211,"end":9849.324,"text":"所以我今天也是出於一份對司法制度的深切關懷所以我在這邊誠摯的呼籲各位委員其實司法審判不是一個試驗場不是一個科學的試驗場這個推動法庭直播的這個制度呢其實影響非常深遠所以不是一時之間就可以很草率的把它通過"},{"start":9851.981,"end":9879.827,"text":"這個與其說我擔心什麼所謂的隱私權受侵害的問題其實我更擔心的是司法最核心的這些價值例如獨立、冷靜、理性跟中立假如貿然讓所有的審判都放到這個人民的視野之下的話其實有可能會造成反而是會受到反效果的"},{"start":9884.156,"end":9910.837,"text":"剛剛有很多先進提到好像比較法上美國很多州也是開放法庭直播那我們就看看強尼戴普案各位還記得強尼戴普跟他老婆跟他前妻是什麼事情誹謗可是真的每個人都關心他們誹謗的真點嗎我相信不是的大家反而是抱持著看戲的心態"},{"start":9912.418,"end":9931.595,"text":"而且現在你去網路上面搜尋強力逮捕案網路上面一大堆迷因都是針對證人 要不是針對專家惡搞這些證人跟專家他們不是涉案的人士可是他被迫承擔來自輿論的羞辱而且這些影響到現在還繼續存在"},{"start":9934.545,"end":9961.376,"text":"社群平台 Twitter YouTube上面充斥著各種偏頗的剪輯跟情緒動員所以輿論會一面倒把司法過程 把這個司法的審判變成一個網紅比拼的戲劇場律師跟法官每一個動作都被放大檢視法官跟律師在這種情況之下也受到巨大的輿論壓力將會造成什麼效果 剛剛很多先進都提過了"},{"start":9962.495,"end":9980.456,"text":"證人跟專家有可能會因為害怕被貼標籤影響他們的出庭意願或他們誠實作證的意願這會直接影響司法發現真實的功能還有一個更重要的法官、證人、律師還有所有訴訟當事人"},{"start":9982.526,"end":10000.04,"text":"在處於鏡頭的注視之下之後有可能在無形當中要自我調整行為去迎合觀眾的期待甚至去表演 對不對這時候審判就會轉變成鏡頭下的說服跟操演而不再是法律跟理性的交鋒而且最令人擔憂的是什麼更進一步"},{"start":10000.64,"end":10028.32,"text":"律師跟當事人的訴訟策略也會把他轉向變成情緒性的動員挑起觀眾同情再用這個輿論反過來壓迫法官我沒有講特定個案我只是說這個我們現在馬上就近乎二讀有點奇怪當然黃國昌學長是我很尊敬的學長可是就是說這個時候我們就不禁會懷疑他會不會實質去干擾我們司法獨立這時候我們還會講什麼無罪推定跟罪行法定"},{"start":10030.269,"end":10048.507,"text":"這變成空談了所以其實我再次強調我們並不是反對司法改革其實我也支持提升司法和透明可是我認為其實這個透明呢應該以實質要達到實質目的為目標而不是以攝影機的鏡頭為表徵"},{"start":10052.984,"end":10080.258,"text":"最後我想針對剛才主席提到的有一點這個沒錯我看一下我們通過這個條文我覺得很奇怪我先簡單解釋一下很簡單行事訴訟我就講行事訴訟好了行事訴訟的程序是準備程序再來是審判程序審判程序裡面有兩個主要部分一個是證據調查然後一個是言辭辯論言辭辯論喔所以審判程序裡面包括證據調查跟言辭辯論"},{"start":10082.898,"end":10108.076,"text":"我剛剛聽國昌委員他以他自身的經驗說應該法庭直播他自身的經驗受到不開心的經驗上對下被教訓都是在什麼程序準備程序跟審理程序的證據調查他希望公開的應該是這兩個部分吧可是我們看條文"},{"start":10111.996,"end":10127.552,"text":"高層法院 地方法院 市市審 審理這些案件的時候於公開行訴訟之辯論及裁判之宣誓時所為的錄音錄影可以公開播送講的是審理程序的延遲辯論跟宣誓判決"},{"start":10128.772,"end":10150.508,"text":"沒有講到黃委員關注的那個部分但是我坦白講這可能有爭議啦可是你純粹法律上來看好像是這樣子沒有錯所以這點我也提出來總而言之啦這些事情都是應該在委員會裡面討論的吧怎麼馬上就進負二讀了咧所以我還是最後呼籲就是"},{"start":10153.439,"end":10181.218,"text":"請各位委員還有我們全國同胞讓我們共同守住法院司法系統這一塊冷靜理性發現真相的空間不要讓鏡頭來決定正義的樣貌謝謝大家好 謝謝我接下來呢來做一個程序上的宣告啦我們麥玉珍委員發言結束以後我們先休息五分鐘接下來請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":10183.519,"end":10197.594,"text":"你也不要期待立法院的水準很高也沒有啦立法院的水準也沒有很高啦但是大家應該都是很努力啦只是說有時候涉及到專業的部分聽聽大家不同的意見啦這個我們都非常樂意來 請麥委員"},{"start":10200.793,"end":10216.42,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位先進 各位親愛的家人 大家早安一正今天要明確的表達台灣民眾黨強力支持法庭直播制度化的法治化"},{"start":10217.34,"end":10242.14,"text":"並呼應朝野政黨本與改革初衷共同推動司法透明的精神落實人民知情權與程序正義法庭直播制度不是噱頭 也不是表演而是當代民主社會對開放政府透明司法的基本要求"},{"start":10243.06,"end":10260.573,"text":"這不只是媒體進入法庭的問題而是整個社會如何理解司法信任司法的關鍵一步台灣早在2017年的司法改革國事會議中就已經"},{"start":10262.394,"end":10275.898,"text":"達成推動法庭直播的共識如今終於開始推動修法程序以審議草案不應再停滯不前更不應該因為個案爭議"},{"start":10278.679,"end":10285.087,"text":"就整體否決的改革我們支持法庭直播應先從法例審等無事實爭議的案件前面實施並針對重大公共利益"},{"start":10293.717,"end":10300.124,"text":"案件逐步開放事實省直播對於隱私與人權的疑慮我們認為這不是問題的終點而是設計制度配套的起點"},{"start":10310.765,"end":10318.552,"text":"在沒有法庭直播的情況下反而是未經查證的網路謠言政論節目的片面臆測主導了社會輿論唯有公開透明以審判的過程才足以爭"},{"start":10329.282,"end":10354.493,"text":"才足以真本情願避免社會背不實的資訊誤導我們不能再用20世紀的思維去看待21世紀的司法制度法庭直播資訊傳播的進化而是人民監督的進步"},{"start":10355.353,"end":10363.838,"text":"也是對法院最直接最強烈的信任的宣示台灣民眾黨主張這場改革不應該淪為意識形態的之爭而應該是民主深化的契機我們呼應朝野政黨回歸初衷以法庭直播作為重見司法的公信"},{"start":10382.99,"end":10409.318,"text":"拉近司法與人民距離的關鍵工程最後我們支持立法院紮訴審議修法廣納民間的意見讓這項制度更周延穩健的商路司法改革不能是菁英內部的討論而應是全民參與的實踐"},{"start":10412.018,"end":10434.263,"text":"謝謝大家大家辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝麥玉珍委員這大家都有聽到各個政黨本來會有不同的看法那這一部法令其實我到我剛一直在傾聽各位的發言我像我一直在看我剛看到那個我們"},{"start":10435.043,"end":10458.51,"text":"民主訴訟法跟刑事訴訟法對於人證部分它就有一個不同的一個設計你像譬如說我們大家有對庭的經驗應該很多前輩都很清楚你說一個證人到法庭上他在證言的時候有旁聽的人法官也許認為會問你你有壓力沒有 有壓力我們叫他先出去連這個都有設計到這樣"},{"start":10462.771,"end":10482.039,"text":"但刑務署反而又沒有這樣的一個設計那剛剛大家有提出來的這部分就跟整個直播啊會不會這個當然涉及到真實發現因為怕當事人就會有壓力證人會有壓力嘛那我們今天是講的就是說要不要讓他公開播送那公開播送"},{"start":10482.839,"end":10502.054,"text":"你說對你看剛剛委員進來的他們就是站在比較變成一個開放的一個法庭讓民眾來做一個參與提供民眾對司法以後更信賴的一個誘因也不是不對但只是說怎麼樣去把這一些大家所提到的這一些"},{"start":10503.786,"end":10528.035,"text":"大家提到說很怕引起的對這些就比較弊端也不敢說是弊端就是有不同的看法認為說這樣反而會有如下如下的剛很多學者專家所提到的這些疑慮那這些可能等一下再透過不同的看法大家再踴躍再提出來"},{"start":10529.275,"end":10549.852,"text":"其實最主要我是覺得比較可惜的一點就是敬夫惡毒這個就少了一個討論就唯一比較可惜的地方否則其實有聚焦耶我這倒覺得是蠻有聚焦的只是說這一場還好我有排的這一場讓各位來表達你們的意見否則咻一下你們連表達意見的機會都沒有我們先休息一下好不好 謝謝"},{"start":10999.403,"end":11006.636,"text":"來 請坐 我們接下來我們請政治大學法學院我們楊雲華教授"},{"start":11016.799,"end":11041.986,"text":"主席還有各位在場的貴賓好我想今天我就法庭的審理活動要不要錄音影然後公開播放這個問題提出我個人一點的淺見我想法庭審理是一個公開審理的活動然後把它推廣到所以"},{"start":11042.984,"end":11067.628,"text":"我們更應該把它錄音錄影以後公開的向社會直播可能很多人認為這個是當然之理啦我想這是因為他們沒有真正去了解過什麼叫做公開審理的在訴訟法上面的意義公開審理這個制度在近代是"},{"start":11069.045,"end":11083.002,"text":"法國大革命以後才有的當時最主要的理由就是要破除所謂的內閣司法跟密室司法也就是說在之前的很多的法庭審理活動是門關起來的"},{"start":11084.624,"end":11096.798,"text":"社會大眾不知道的沒有受到社會監督的於是行政的力量 君王的力量很容易就在這個密室裡面下達他的指令再加上法官當時並不獨立的這個結果"},{"start":11099.601,"end":11116.026,"text":"會造成很多的問題那法國大革命以後呢就提出了這個法庭審理必須公開也就是說在法官審理的時候這個法庭必須把門打開必須讓有意願的民眾可以進來旁聽"},{"start":11118.252,"end":11137.602,"text":"這就是他最基本也最重要的意義那至於說公開審理是不是要讓更多人可以參與也就是所謂的民眾可以多多益善呢更符合公開審理的意義我想從法律史上來看從來沒有提過這個觀點簡單的來說公開審理就是希望"},{"start":11143.772,"end":11160.143,"text":"法官在審判的時候他就是依據當庭當事人所提出來的證據法律的觀點 辯論 結論等等法官也只能依據這個獨立的做出判決而秉除掉"},{"start":11161.564,"end":11175.251,"text":"門關起來不讓社會大眾接觸可能的遭受到的政治的干預所以公開審理主要的目的是在保護法官的獨立性至於"},{"start":11176.417,"end":11199.323,"text":"要不要擴大民意讓更多的人參與或者更多的民眾參與可以確保裁判的正確性從來就不是公開審理這個原則所考慮到的事情也因此德國的法院組織法在19世紀末制定的時候就把公開審理這個明文化"},{"start":11200.578,"end":11216.945,"text":"那歷年來德國所有的重要的判決談到這個原則的時候他只強調一點法院在審判的時候法院的門不可以是緊閉的法院裡面要提供適當的座位讓"},{"start":11219.045,"end":11243.839,"text":"有意願的民眾都可以進來旁聽也就是如此所以呢他們從來不會去討論那如果要讓更多的民眾參與那法庭應該在什麼在體育館啊在菜市場啊不是更多的民眾可以參與嗎那是不是更符合公開審理的目的答案並不是如此一直到了20世紀乃至於到了21世紀"},{"start":11246.19,"end":11272.752,"text":"整個媒體、網路發達以後當然德國也有極少數的人有提到說那是不是我們可以也來播放讓民眾可以很輕易的譬如說在家裡也不用千里迢迢跑到法院才能參與法庭活動那這不是更方便嗎能讓更多人的更多人可以輕易的接觸到法庭活動"},{"start":11274.563,"end":11293.694,"text":"這個意見很快就被否定了主要的理由有三第一個如果法庭是可以這樣公開播放的話無異於讓法庭的當事人本來是訴訟主體的地位結果今天很容易淪為類似以前羅馬競技場雙方的廝殺、鬥爭反而變成什麼"},{"start":11301.839,"end":11319.179,"text":"人民觀賞馬戲團一般的法庭活動這是第一個最主要考慮第二個就是考慮到法官審判的獨立性的維持如果今天我們輕易的把這個法庭活動這樣播放我相信以今天的環境"},{"start":11321.271,"end":11342.792,"text":"很多人可能隨時會在他的直播節目他的網路節目上面要求大家來投票說各位認為今天法官是不是未審先判各位覺得今天法官的問題是不是專業各位覺得今天這樣的訴訟結果將來被告會"},{"start":11345.492,"end":11370.946,"text":"會不會被判刑甚至會不會被判到死刑嚴重的影響法官的審判的中立跟獨立第三個也是最重要的如果這樣輕易的可以公開的話如同各位先進先前所提到的很多訴訟參與人的他的隱私他不想被人知道的地方可能都要揭露出來"},{"start":11372.579,"end":11400.481,"text":"剛剛有先進提到那如果有這種情況那法院就裁准不予公開不就可以了我想這個是對法官太高度的期待難道法官就不會侵害基本權嗎難道說法官裁准了要公開於是不管當事人的意見不管證人的意見一律就要公開嗎我們今天的司法"},{"start":11401.653,"end":11425.45,"text":"一直說要司法為民要讓人可以親近司法樂於使用司法那但是如果這樣草率的結果反而是讓許多人民害怕司法不敢走進法院難道這是我們整個司法改革希望看到的目標嗎所以德國在"},{"start":11427.395,"end":11455.282,"text":"2024年也是有少數人提出了那現在網路發達了為什麼不可以適度的利用這種技術把法庭活動公開呢幾乎在德國毫無爭議的順利通過修正法院組織法修正不是說擴大這種公開審理或者說網路這種播放的範圍而是明文禁止所以呢"},{"start":11457.421,"end":11475.49,"text":"公開審理並不代表一定要讓更多的人參與更多的人輕易的參與就能更符合公開審理的目的因此德國很清楚的在2024年的修法裡面原則上通通禁止"},{"start":11476.57,"end":11486.535,"text":"法庭的這種錄音錄影當然包括他的公開播放只有在極少數的狀況譬如說在他的法律省"},{"start":11488.444,"end":11512.436,"text":"如果審理的案件具有歷史、具有學術重大意義的時候才很例外的允許錄音錄影但是他也不是允許公開播放而是說將來有研究參考的價值的話在特定的情況是允許這些做學術研究的人進去翻閱這些檔案那最後我要強調的是"},{"start":11514.642,"end":11541.025,"text":"整個如果從公開審理的出發點就誤解了然後想當然爾的理所當然的認為那就是要對全民更為開放我想是對這個制度的一個重大的誤解那以今天在台灣的現況之下我個人會認為如果輕率的就開放錄音錄影而且可以公開直播"},{"start":11542.657,"end":11567.932,"text":"他可能要達到的目的可能是像有些人談到的要讓司法更透明更公開能不能真的達到這個目的我是持高度的懷疑那達到這個目的的同時我們可能要犧牲掉什麼就如同剛剛前面各位很多先進談到的可能法院的公正審判獨立審判可能所有訴訟參與人"},{"start":11570.238,"end":11594.775,"text":"他個人的權利包括個人的隱私個人的人格可能都因為這樣的緣故遭受到無可回復的損害那這又啟示我們簡單的說可以在法庭遮蔽他啊可以提供一些保護措施啊完全這就可以充分的防止嗎我認為"},{"start":11596.62,"end":11622.521,"text":"從這個角度來看也是高度違反比例原則最後我想請各位先進有時間的話去看一下4-689號它裡面提到了人民在公共場域是不是還是擁有隱私權在那一號解釋裡面非常清楚的提到隨著科技的進步我們可以不斷的觀看記錄放送"},{"start":11626.378,"end":11649.404,"text":"對人民的隱私權尤其在這種科技的時代只有造成更大的侵害所以我們在立法上反而更需要保護他那時間到了 我的發言就到這裡謝謝大家好 謝謝楊教授的發言接下來請東吳大學法律系陳清秀教授發言"},{"start":11659.102,"end":11682.61,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生女士先生大家早安大家好那很榮幸有這個機會來參與這一堂的這個公聽會那首先對第一個主題有關於評議的記錄是不是應該要關於死刑的部分要不要永久保存那這個司法院現在已經通過了修正了他的保存的相關的規範"},{"start":11683.61,"end":11705.497,"text":"已經這個問題應該已經是法律上已經解決了所以應該不需要不過從這個議題倒是讓我發現到我們台灣的法治有一個非常詭異的地方就是說法官的評議是屬於內部的事項為什麼要公開給當事人來瞭解"},{"start":11706.377,"end":11720.742,"text":"我以前在職業律師的時候聽到有一些律師啊他左後門去賄賂法官如果你今天可以讓這個評議紀錄讓當事人律師可以閱覽他就知道他有沒有賄賂成功啊他是不是"},{"start":11722.062,"end":11745.381,"text":"這個地方如果要給他施加政治壓力 或者各種的影響審判的情況透過這個評議紀錄 雷月蘭就知道他的壓力施行有沒有成功啊所以換句話說 這個是助長官商割捷啊助長貪污舞弊 助長干預審判的制度我們早年的法案組織法 沒有這樣規定耶"},{"start":11746.562,"end":11769.46,"text":"我們看看德國跟日本的立法律 評議紀錄是永久保密法官自己都不能夠公開 你還居然還可以給當選 還越攬太荒謬的立法律這是在我以前職業律師沒有辦法想像的事情我查的結果發現是民國90年的時候我們立法院把他修法加進去 他的目的說他要保障"},{"start":11770.18,"end":11792.433,"text":"平易的 確實弱勢平易制度那弱勢平易制度有需要採取這種手段嗎你可以透過行政的監督 司法監督了解你們是不是真的有弱勢平易還是只是虛晃一招啊這個可以用其他方式處理你怎麼會搞一個法律制度讓大家內神通外鬼呢這是很危險的一個做法我是非常的誠實的呼籲應該要刪除這個規定"},{"start":11794.874,"end":11810.608,"text":"刪除這個規定評議記錄的話你看日本這個德國日本的做法他為什麼要保障他的秘密性呢首先他就是要保障法官獨立審判不受外界的干涉如果你今天還可以伺候越南就知道他干涉有沒有成功啊"},{"start":11811.249,"end":11838.348,"text":"是吧 他貪污舞弊 他賄賂有沒有成功只要去看評議記錄就知道他當年指的發言是不是有沒有支持他判無罪啊是不是可以支持他這個要原告之處駁回還是怎麼樣呢這個等於是公然的給他有一個管道啊去確保他的賄賂的這樣一個管道是不是有效確保他政治施壓有沒有成功這個是很危險的一個制度啊我覺得沒想到我們台灣居然有這樣一個法令規範還存在了幾十年"},{"start":11840.589,"end":11852.574,"text":"我覺得我們立法院應該趕快修法才能夠確保法官獨立審判的空間接下來我們看看法庭公開審理我想法庭公開審理他的目的在我的報告60頁這裡"},{"start":11854.844,"end":11873.4,"text":"主要有三個目的一個是民主的正當性法官裁判應該受到人民的監督第二個確保法官的一個程序的透明公平審判增進人民對司法的信任不過我想我們只要了解這個法庭的公開審理"},{"start":11874.881,"end":11887.167,"text":"他所涉及到的各方的利益因此我們在做法規修法的時候必須要做法規的衝擊影響評估也就是所謂的利弊得失的分析也就是因果關係的"},{"start":11890.509,"end":11910.059,"text":"我們知道這個公開審理他如果用公開播送這個就變成是民粹在審判不是一個司法審判因為他司法審判刑法權的行使要確保他的公正合理合法如果我們今天公開給社會大眾媒體來先來審判"},{"start":11912.02,"end":11930.236,"text":"那我們就搞民粹運動啦就變成是感性超越了理性我們一個國家要進步一定要理性超越感性你今天設置一個法律制度會感性超越理性會讓這個案情不太了解一知半解的人來參與監督然後呢來表決啊來做媒體的審判啊"},{"start":11932.498,"end":11948.165,"text":"這個就會進入到所謂的這個民粹的一個審判情況就是不符合專類理性的一個審判的做法這是第一點第二點我們相關的當事人的權利證人的權利被告以後想要再融入社會的權利會不會被剝奪啦"},{"start":11950.506,"end":11964.94,"text":"我們要鼓勵被告將來可以改過自新 融入這個社會現在都把它上網公佈了 昭告天下啦好像是遊街示眾啦 比遊街示眾還更可怕因為它可以永久保存啦遊街示眾只是一下子就過去啦我們比遊街示眾更嚴重的一個律法呢這個是很危險的做法"},{"start":11971.266,"end":11993.249,"text":"因為這個整個剝奪被告重新融入社會做人的一個機會同時如果對一些有利害關係的你現在知道證人作證對他不利這個證人會面臨到生命身體財產的危險法官如果這個都這樣公開於眾他走路的時候呢是不是要很小心啊我們要保障法官的"},{"start":11994.21,"end":12011.367,"text":"公正獨立審判的環境啊你不能夠設置一個法律制度讓他充滿著人生生命安全的威脅啊他的家人我們要給他保護啊證人也要保障啊你怎麼會搞一個為了要哗眾取寵然後讓我們整個制度呢非理性化"},{"start":12012.308,"end":12038.036,"text":"這個就是倒行逆施的一個規範我們建議應該要考慮一下所以德國跟日本的憲法法院最高法院的他都裁判啦這裡的地方涉及到法官的這個刑花犬的行使是要來發現事實真相證人如果說在媒體的這樣一個直播的情況底下他敢講真話嗎他講真話他面臨多大的風險啊"},{"start":12041.977,"end":12046.92,"text":"我們要確保證人能夠憑著良心講話結果你營造一個法律環境是讓他不敢憑著良心講話這個是好的制度嗎所以我覺得這個問題是很嚴重的我們覺得我們應該朝向公正理性的保障法官的生命財產安全保障他家人的生命財產安全保障證人的生命財產安全讓他敢講真話我們要營造這樣一個合理的環境而不是走向一種滑頌取蟲的一條路線"},{"start":12072.157,"end":12089.831,"text":"我們今天如果要做民調那你要把這個有利不利的資訊都要全部的公開讓大家理解不是純粹只是問一個很簡單的問題這個是複雜的涉及各方利益我們各方利益都要公平去考慮兼顧不是只考慮一方的利益我們這個"},{"start":12090.652,"end":12116.358,"text":"媒體的公開雖然說接受媒體的監督但是我們監督有很多種方式你採取的手段太激烈啦會影響到這個裁判的公正性這個就完全背離了目的啦因為我們是刑罰權的行使是要恰如其時的不爭不檢的來處罰他來維持社會的秩序超過這個手段的話呢違反比例原則這就是違憲的法律啦"},{"start":12116.798,"end":12133.564,"text":"就變成違憲的法律所以我覺得我們這個地方要保障我們的相關制度能夠合理可以運作否則的話它是有很大的一個風險這是我個人最近把它做一個整理之後發現德國"},{"start":12136.045,"end":12143.667,"text":"聯邦憲法法院的判決2001年的1月24號有一個判決日本在1958年也有一個判決他們認為這個事情還是應該要比較慎重一點所以我是建議我們應該要注意一下也就是說公開審理主義還是有一些例外我看德國的例外它規定了蠻多類型"},{"start":12158.132,"end":12164.155,"text":"當然我們會回應社會大眾可能希望對司法的資訊的公開的需求所以德國在2024年有做一個修正法院組織法就有稍微有放寬了一點我所了解好像是放寬不是緊縮放寬一點我的報告在62月這邊他有放寬一點但是他放寬的不是很多至少他把影像都去除掉了我們剛剛講了影像的一個播送會妨礙到生命財產安全"},{"start":12186.147,"end":12208.535,"text":"我們要了解我們世界上不是全部都是好人啊也有壞人啊有一半可能是好人 一半可能是壞人啊你現在把資訊都提供給壞人那好人怎麼獲得保障呢一個法律制度不可以讓壞人有機會可乘啊就像我們剛剛講的 便宜的紀錄你提供給當事人 律師去越南那不就是讓法官沒有辦法很公正處理了嗎"},{"start":12209.675,"end":12230.935,"text":"為什麼我們會有這種制度呢?這個表示我們失利不足啊,欠缺合理性你看德國、日本為什麼評議記錄都永久不公開呢?甚至於根本沒有記錄,為什麼呢?因為他要確保他的一種秘密性確保他一個公正審判的環境,獨立審判的環境不受任何的政治的干預,媒體的干預,以及當事人的干預"},{"start":12231.636,"end":12246.23,"text":"我們今天設計的法律制度居然容許大家來干預司法這樣還要希望司法能夠做得更好那不就閻目求疑嗎所以我覺得整個制度設計是錯誤的因此我們建議應該要重新調整一下最好是發回來"},{"start":12247.311,"end":12270.307,"text":"再由委員會再詳細討論一下比較好當然我有說有一部分在法律省的部分是不是可以適度的開放也許可以考慮考慮因為這個比較也許但是還是要保障法官的生命財產安全我覺得這個是很重要的我們請他當國家做事不能危害到他的生命財產安全這個是很重要的一件事情以上請多指教 謝謝"},{"start":12272.022,"end":12285.45,"text":"好 謝謝上清下秀 陳清秀教授但是給你預告 你也很清楚 這正負二讀這個案子 我是要給整個程序給大家餘力"},{"start":12288.106,"end":12297.932,"text":"招社會公信啦不同意見讓他出來啦那接下來剛好可以因為你剛才形容一部叫做導行歷史喔 聽起來我是驚心動魄啦剛好台灣民眾黨張七凱委員都可以回應你來 接下來請張七凱委員發言"},{"start":12309.258,"end":12320.257,"text":"張熙楷委員發言之前我先做一個程序上的宣告啦我們公聽會上午的會議時間就繼續進行到所有的發言都結束為止好 請"},{"start":12326.006,"end":12342.864,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這麼好的這個公聽會今天我傾聽了一個早上正面反面跟中間的聲音都有很好我覺得就是應該多傾聽這個意見這邊其實台灣民眾黨提出這次這個法庭直播有四大很重要的依據第一個是"},{"start":12345.529,"end":12372.224,"text":"民國106年司法改革國事會議的結論像大家如果仔細看我們的提案都是依照當時的結論去做的第二個我們做過了大型的這個民調高達7成5以上的民眾是贊成的國昌有提醒那個水泳你民進黨的民眾也絕大部分是希望可以看到法庭直播的另外國外有很多的這個例子我前幾天在這邊已經"},{"start":12373.945,"end":12401.813,"text":"不算打臉啦我已經提醒了民進黨的這個吳思堯吳委員不是法庭直播不是只有大陸也不是只有北韓在先進的國家美國加拿大跟英國都是有的我們剛剛上清下修有講在德國有一部分也是有的嘛對不對這個它是一個改革的方向另外有個第四的依據其實國內也有過啊蘇建和漢也有過嘛所以這四大依據"},{"start":12402.873,"end":12431.472,"text":"我們在這種狀況之下提出來裡面最重要的一個依據是什麼呢106年為什麼叫做國司法改革就是民眾對司法的滿意度很低嘛人們有很多疑問啊所以你蔡英文才要召集所有的專家學者要開這個司法改革會所以今天我們是站在一個分水嶺上面你是要往改革方向走而且杜佩如要去反改革特別是我剛剛講已經有四大依據了特別是台灣民眾黨的這個提案"},{"start":12433.154,"end":12461.471,"text":"清清楚楚是依照當時的這個結論包括當時結論裡面明確建議是什麼法律審在延遲辯論應該是要全面直播另外呢去延遲事實審有某些特定案件去進行直播所以台灣民眾黨提出來的具體的這個內容包括第一個我們建立法庭直播的時候是明定法律審原則是公開的例外不公開可是事實審"},{"start":12462.572,"end":12484.413,"text":"事實審視原則不公開 例外是公開的你看 這也是當初大家所有專家學者包括還有改革色彩時候的蔡英文提出來的這是第一個點第二個點我們開放條件是非常明確的 有兩個一個由被告主動來申請今天我聽到某些學者說這個可能會侵犯到被害沒有啊"},{"start":12485.501,"end":12505.644,"text":"就在保障他 所以他主動可以提什麼會不會傷害到被告呢另外呢由法院基於重大的公共利益還有社會上重大的矚目案件才開放 才一定去開放啊他一定是社會上很多的嘛所以不會出現民進黨講的怎麼花六七百億直播沒有 第一個"},{"start":12506.874,"end":12515.886,"text":"一定是重大的這個案件而且對整個社會公共利益是有幫助的你才會這樣做嘛而且我那天也提了民進黨不要講說什麼花太多錢第一個"},{"start":12516.98,"end":12541.978,"text":"你怕你每天大家都要看直播對不對我去問過了明年大概就是一億嘛所以不要弄一個什麼六七百億這個謊言出來是不好的第二個現在那個我是從媒體來大家知道嗎現在比較重要一些會議包括總統會開會有時候你協調有一個電視台進去嘛他不只轉播啊這個錢轉播費用人事費用都是可以省下來的所以錢也不是問題另外呢"},{"start":12543.444,"end":12559.236,"text":"我們要採取不是強制的具備有裁量而且是非常謹慎的這個原則我們明確排除喔案子裡面如果是未成年人性侵的案子家庭暴力或者是機密國安等案件是排除在外的"},{"start":12560.587,"end":12584.062,"text":"這個都是當時106年司法改革會議的這個結論啊所以啊 我們的態度說這個不是一個司法的秀場它是一個制度的公開我今天啊 特別帶了兩段影音都很短我給大家看一下好不好我們看一下當初還是有改革色彩的蔡英文當初的民進黨怎麼來推動司法改革讓我們對他一路來我們看一下當初蔡英文怎麼講司法院"},{"start":12591.276,"end":12608.977,"text":"將陸續開放法庭法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法院也將陸續開放法庭直播法庭直播法庭直播法庭直播讓必要的資訊更加透明"},{"start":12611.6,"end":12635.494,"text":"讓必要的資訊可以公開透明其實這幾天我有時候常去司法院旁聽司法院那個牆壁上面掛了一個要推動公開透明我們現在沒有辦法推動另外剪了一段來我們看一下當初這個做結論的時候主持會議的來我們聽看看市市審在一定的條件下可以直播這樣的用語可以嗎對對對對好 全面反對市市審直播"},{"start":12638.052,"end":12664.589,"text":"三票好那贊成直播的十一省可以直播嘛所以不是英語而是可以嘛的確是十票啊那就是一定要主席表態啊真實現在是什麼意思那有十個人逼迫我投票那我也只好投票啦就是這樣那就是十一票好建議加因為你們的提案所以可能只有你們可以加就是高度憲政爭議yes及政治性安全沒問題損害救濟如果因為法庭直播產生出來的損害救濟其實也應該一定考慮"},{"start":12665.535,"end":12681.306,"text":"我可不可以建議再加一個類型重大經濟還可以所以寫重大經濟案件就好了因為這是蓋瓜星的語言啦重大主謀案件各位提到很多現在的敏感性案件公開直播的效應是什麼大家稍微想像一下喔如果今天這個公開主謀案件他隨時受網民監督喔事後還會被肉搜正能講話會不會有心理壓力可能要顧慮了"},{"start":12682.066,"end":12706.138,"text":"其實公開透明要考慮的真的非常多但是呢如果我們認為公開透明是一條歸路剩下就真的是安全機制的問題那我們也對自己的能力要有一點信心我們是一個有能力的現代公民準備去面對所有的困難解決我們所面對的任何難題我們今天是處理其實有結論就很好然後大家的共識是很清楚的這點比什麼都重要"},{"start":12707.968,"end":12730.642,"text":"這個主持會議的是前大法官徐義秀徐義秀的話為什麼要特別要剪出來司法改革是一條不歸路我們本來就要往前走啊 現在又倒退路而且我們對我們自己也要有信心好不好謝謝給我一分鐘好不好 我做個剪大家都知道啊 我剛剛講不是全世界很多國家而已大家一定記得強尼代普大家想一想喔 強尼代普的老婆啊"},{"start":12734.517,"end":12761.061,"text":"安保賀德他那時候受的就是用媒體審判啊沒有法庭直播之前他老婆放了多少消息給媒體一面倒啊強尼戴普怎麼去救回來他的法庭直播救了強尼戴普也救了一個司法正義嘛一樣的我給大家看一個負面的例子我們國內有一個很有名的叫媽媽嘴命案大家有印象嗎那時候那個老闆叫李炳宏沒有法庭直播啊"},{"start":12762.332,"end":12780.797,"text":"多慘啊這咖啡店老闆因為被誣告被羈押的時候那時候已經有多少媒體知道消息一直在放消息他是不是已經被媒體公審了所以現在有沒有柯文哲也是啊你在媒體現在有沒有在公審柯文哲有沒有以前公審這個李炳宏這個問題要怎麼解決讓陽光射進法院"},{"start":12785.629,"end":12809.939,"text":"法庭直播可以解決這個問題對不對法庭所有的審判過程都是經得起考驗的第一個不會有願意民眾對司法的信任度才會提高我也做一個結論好 謝謝事實上只要法庭直播我記得對司法院也是好的這段時間司法院出了太多事情包括鐘鼎文跑掉什麼那些啦包括什麼台南一些案子陳忠業的案子"},{"start":12814.042,"end":12835.718,"text":"人民一定很想看透過法庭直播陳中彥都已經被起訴了台北地院竟然判沒罪現在檢察官又起訴我現在全國民眾也是在想怎麼透過法庭直播清清楚楚知道到底出了什麼事情為什麼會判陳中彥去幫他父親的廠商所有相關人都有罪了陳中彥沒罪"},{"start":12836.599,"end":12845.567,"text":"中頂門跑掉了這案子人民都等著要看嘛 對不對好啦 感謝你啦透過陽光射盡 射盡司法體系讓我們的司法體系受到人民的信任謝謝好 謝謝喔 這個我們上清下秀教授剛才說的說倒行逆施你沒給他回應啦其實喔"},{"start":12859.005,"end":12882.096,"text":"那個公開播送 公開審理沒有人說他是這個洪水猛獸啦也沒有人這樣認為啦只是說這些疑慮啊怎麼樣去讓我們司法院再提出更好的一個看法而且大家剛提到的是在講你們沒有去講的你去 這麼好的意見你不要讓大家討論你人情無二度 你知不知道這次你連說明也不敢說明你人家只會亂說"},{"start":12890.04,"end":12915.098,"text":"中憲可以拜託他這裡再開 再多講一點 多請聽大家的意見你們就禁夫惡徒啊 否則我會白你們也有白啊否則我會白 否則就發一個給你們再開啊你很好你就繼續排啊 中憲也可以再排不是嘛 什麼法案禁夫惡徒以後你叫我繼續排是嘛 然後呢然後呢 這個叫做立法院喔這個沒有審理耶 我認為沒有審理耶"},{"start":12917.963,"end":12935.33,"text":"立法委員要審不是學者專我們是要吸取他們的經驗來以後加入我們審理的時候參考意見欸水泳啊 你在日本這麼久啊到時候二審的時候二讀二審的時候你可以提出很多意見那要委員會幹什麼要委員會幹什麼你們就去啊 你們可以去發言啊我們會被你們剝奪啦"},{"start":12942.313,"end":12949.718,"text":"你講的這些都叫做政治語言嘛所有人今天講的全部法律的實務嘛法律實務你就是不懂嘛啊不是啊 那都讓你發言完啊已經讓你發言完了換別人 你就尊重別人啊"},{"start":12976.034,"end":13000.958,"text":"感謝立法院今天給我這個機會來發言尤其是謝謝主席辦這個公聽會非常棒讓政法的意見都可以被聽到我先講一件事情立法院的直播怎麼來的立法院直播就是2016年我去推動的"},{"start":13002.25,"end":13027.46,"text":"我跟工都門一起去推動,我去拜會那時候的立法院長那是民進黨開始第一任的立法院長的時候我在2016年2月去跟他報告然後來院長就同意了4月8號就直播了那以前沒有立法院直播之前,大家也怕要死啊很多都反對啊,國民黨實在都反對嘛對不對"},{"start":13029.81,"end":13050.894,"text":"所以民進黨執政就有這個契機嘛所以我一直覺得民進黨是一個民主的政黨所以才有辦法促成這樣的一個立法院直播所以你現在打開頻道123、124就可以看到立法院直播啊然後網路也可以 你在國外也看得到啊"},{"start":13052.768,"end":13079.367,"text":"所以這不是很好嗎那同樣的今天講到法庭直播法庭直播其實剛剛大家有提到2017就是私改國事會議的結尾但是今天為什麼會變成有將近20個法律團體出來反對我們陪審協會是贊成的我們發了一個聲明問題在哪裡我就講第一個就是說法庭直播不是問題"},{"start":13082.038,"end":13108.327,"text":"問題是黃國昌提出來就變成問題嘛問題是在這裡啊法輪直播本來就不是問題啊是因為黃國昌提的嘛那這個就是變成是我是覺得這個政黨的惡鬥的問題我是覺得我不贊成這樣子我是本土派的我利用的我很清楚但是我始終認為法輪直播是世界趨勢我們不應該因為黨派"},{"start":13111.411,"end":13128.117,"text":"而改變立場第二個就是說像我剛剛聽了一輪第二個問題是什麼為什麼會有20個法律團體我們也算法律團體我們是贊成的出來聲明但是2017國事會他沒出來反對"},{"start":13130.506,"end":13149.331,"text":"我覺得法律人團體,台灣的法律人跟社會脫節,這是第二個問題那第三個問題是什麼?剛剛很多學者專家說一堆保留意見這個就是台灣社會法律為什麼思考大家一直看不起的地方七八成民意反對"},{"start":13151.175,"end":13176.388,"text":"我們都太迷信 落伍了德國跟日本的法律制度嘛都舉德國的制度 舉日本的制度這台灣司法敗壞的開始 因為德國日本太落伍了好 那我說這個法庭直播是世界的歧視第一個 南非在2013年 我想大家還有印象有一個奧運金牌檢手 他因為截肢 然後他槍殺他女朋友"},{"start":13178.49,"end":13201.823,"text":"2013我就看全世界直播審判在南非台灣憑什麼要輸南非還有我大概19年前我去印尼印尼就有審判直播我到他的法庭上有四五台SNG那我看到印尼的印象什麼印尼的法院的審判法官的態度比台灣的法官好"},{"start":13202.745,"end":13224.046,"text":"然後19年前他就審判直播我再講一個案子2016我有一個商標專利在印尼我去開叫做Coffee Murder2016我跟當地的律師在討論全印尼都在消看咖啡謀殺案後來那個被告叫做Jessica被判有罪判20年"},{"start":13225.764,"end":13247.489,"text":"欸 台灣現在還在講法庭直播20年前 19年前的印尼早就在直播了啦我們現在在講這個事情不是讓人家笑嗎再來美國 我想2016德瑞克的這個案子因為那個黑人叫做弗洛伊德被壓制了好 我秀照片給大家看欸 這個跑不動照片怎麼跑"},{"start":13262.228,"end":13282.094,"text":"2016德瑞克這個案子這個是加拿大的最高法院都是公開的 我們台灣的最高法院也不公開啊這個是哪個國家的法院 每天開庭這個是埃及的最高法院"},{"start":13283.959,"end":13308.403,"text":"莊主席啊 埃及每天都在開庭 最高法院 我們都不開庭我們的司法局也不屬埃及埃及每天開庭啊這個是加拿大 這俊博不要說 我在加拿大這個是印尼 這個就是我剛剛講的Jessica的審判直播啊她後來被判重罪啊這個是哪裡"},{"start":13313.527,"end":13336.981,"text":"我兩個議題一起講啦 這個是秘魯的最高法院啦我去看秘魯的最高法院 如入無人之境 它都是公開的全世界的審判都是公開的 而且最高法院一定開放讓人民自由進出 只有台灣不開放欸 我們連法院 法庭都不開放了 你還講直播所以你知道我們台灣的追準"},{"start":13338.632,"end":13365.692,"text":"行政、立法、司法,司法是全世界最弱武的我們司法民主化感謝很多民主前輩,包括民進黨的東華我們讓立法民主化都可以選我們這樣行政、立法民主化可以選總統、選市長我們的司法還躲在秘密審判的黑箱我們最高法案不開庭我們的大法官原則上也不開庭只有例外才開庭所以我今天為什麼要秀這個"},{"start":13367.356,"end":13396.198,"text":"這個秘魯,大家覺得是第三世界,但是它必定比較公開所以不要把它當洪水門,這個就是它的最高法院啊這個秘魯啊這個是歐洲的這個是土耳其這個是哪個最高法院,哪個國家最高法院以色列的最高法院"},{"start":13397.779,"end":13406.809,"text":"沒有人不公開的啦 只有台灣不公開 這以色列最高法院然後我講這個是德國 我講一下 2015我去德國"},{"start":13408.055,"end":13430.244,"text":"德國的政修最高法院不開放,我只能在門外,但是靠關係才進去結果我去德國跟大家報告,德國最高法院開假的,沒有在辯論我的法官去,上訴聲明被上訴,結案了沒有在辯論,那我不信啊,大家都說德國外號都在留德,拿什麼博士"},{"start":13431.209,"end":13457.54,"text":"我就聽下來 聽第二個案子 第二個案子一樣啊說一個重大案子 上訴聲明 被上訴的結案德國沒有在真正的延遲辯論 他的最高法案也是假的我們在寫什麼德國 我們台灣的司法的問題就是傻傻的寫弱武的德國這個是德國的地方法案 我也看他的參審"},{"start":13459.093,"end":13480.338,"text":"德國的檢察官不會問證人 德國的律師也不會問證人比台灣的律師還不如 因為我們2003年採用的交互結婚制度加債所以台灣優秀的律師 像賴芳玉現場的優秀律師我們的交互結婚技術都比德國的檢察官跟律師好所以拜託 不能夠去耳濡耳的德國"},{"start":13482.284,"end":13510.098,"text":"我們現在的問題就是學一個落伍的國家的制度什麼都不行剛剛專家都是講德國啊那我剛剛跟大家報告的英國在2009都已經開放好我秀這個照片是什麼就是講2016佛羅伊德這個案子你看這個是法官法官有被威脅嗎重點是什麼剛剛也講到輿論審判好這個就是專家出來第二天"},{"start":13513.112,"end":13534.339,"text":"專家出來才重要是什麼才不會被那些這個名嘴因為沒有直播名嘴靠著他輿論媒體的優勢胡說八道然後造成不當的輿論然後影響到審判的正確性我們看一下美國這樣的2016的一個審判直播播了六個"},{"start":13536.518,"end":13560.233,"text":"六個禮拜你看這個醫生來當專家這個是廢 為什麼造成那個德瑞克 佛洛伊德為什麼59秒就會產生心癢不足所有的市政政績專家在電視前面講得清清楚楚就不會有不當的議論審判 不當的讓名嘴去亂七八糟的胡說八道一通"},{"start":13561.013,"end":13589.016,"text":"像剛剛的這個紀凱峰他的審判他有壓力因為那時候就沒有直播啊所以沒有直播你審判媒體就一直亂報一通啊有的報正確的有的胡扯一通所以你看美國為什麼他的司法為什麼會讓人家覺得公正因為你透過直播審判你把真正的證據跟事實呈現也讓專家出來好好把事情講清楚這個國家的司法才會讓人家公正才會安定所以"},{"start":13590.151,"end":13603.76,"text":"主席 謝謝你 你要有信心啦謝謝 我都聽政法人的意見 我才會沒信心我也在開宗明義給你點出說這不是洪水猛獸但問題就是說 其實啊今天這個議題啊"},{"start":13605.501,"end":13631.609,"text":"它核心的一個價值涉及到獨立審判啦涉及到獨立審判啦在立法院裡面的你看到各個政黨裡面立法委員的見解看法會跟實務界或者說所謂的法界這些學者專家裡面的看法是完全不一樣的甚至於立法院針對於獨立審判他都認為說你憲法法庭你這些法官你們都沒有遵照整個民意基礎"},{"start":13632.77,"end":13638.685,"text":"法官他本質裡面啊 他其實他是不需要有民意基礎的"},{"start":13639.949,"end":13668.129,"text":"法官給你有民意基礎 大家都民粹的那還得了我反而會覺得會做出讓社會嘩然的這大家只是會講說違反國民的法律感情但有些判決那其實仔細去看的話是坑坑有力啊裡面都提出一些很堅強的一個見解但沒辦法這個司法跟民意有時候真的會兩個相碰的時候啊這個是就很有名值得討論啊但是啊 今天那個鄭"},{"start":13669.75,"end":13691.087,"text":"正如剛才說的,其實今天講的最主要是講公開播送啦,倒也未必是說公開審理跟公開播送可能這個概念又不太一樣,但今天正反意見多有我這個主席是非常謙卑虛心的在聽兩兆的意見接下來,來,賴芳瑜,賴律師直接按下去對不對"},{"start":13705.495,"end":13719.124,"text":"主席也很高興看到這好多我認識的先進朋友我想就是冷靜的一個對話這個是一個今天我覺得開這場公聽會最重要的一個原因那我先講一下"},{"start":13723.852,"end":13735.304,"text":"現在我先講一下我大概是101年也就是2012年的殭屍事件法在立法公聽會的時候那時候就針對於殭屍事件要不要公開審理這件事情就被討論過"},{"start":13742.431,"end":13765.081,"text":"那那個時候已經討論出來加速事件就是一個共識就是不公開審理這是第一個那第二個呢大家其實一直在提到尤其旗下提到的國事會議2017年我也是國事會議的委員所以我也在場那麼我是第五分組第四分組的許玉秀前大法官那時候確實也在第五分組去提到"},{"start":13765.701,"end":13793.449,"text":"那麼關於法庭直播這件事情那在我們的兒少跟性別因為我在是第五分組的是兒少性別跟家是有關的是由我當組長所以呢這個我們又再分組分組之後再一個小組那這部分我們已經也有共識是採取不公開審理也沒有所謂的這個法庭直播那我也很希望在今天有個共識是家事事件跟少事法性侵害犯罪防治法"},{"start":13794.269,"end":13800.933,"text":"絕對不在法庭直播的一個範圍之內但是為什麼今天我又站在這裡站在這裡是因為我們的修正草案確實讓我們看到很大的灰色空間第一個就是我們的修正草案我從法律上來論述一下第86條去提到法庭直播的時候他沒有排除掉也就是所謂的特別規定"},{"start":13818.664,"end":13843.2,"text":"那麼換句話說現在已有的少事法跟家事事件法他是採取一個不公開審理為原則的時候他卻沒有排除那麼我們也確實有一個很焦慮的點有沒有後法取代前法的一個法律意見跑出來也就是意外的把少事法跟家事事件法我們這些所保護的包括性侵犯罪防治法突然被納入到這次的一個法庭直播的一個討論範圍這是第一件事情第二個是第90條的立法理由的修正說明裡面"},{"start":13849.224,"end":13864.949,"text":"是有意識的把少年及家事法院准用之而且他並此續名也就是說如果有共識少事以及家事性別兒少性侵害犯罪防治法家暴法等等"},{"start":13865.669,"end":13878.716,"text":"就是這些性別跟兒上法案不列入到這個法庭直播的話那麼我們既有的這個法律結構其實看來是有一些很需要修正的空間否則我真的今天不需要那麼焦慮的站在這裡了那第二個呢"},{"start":13881.969,"end":13895.601,"text":"從這邊的一個法案來看就是既然我們如果有公示的話但法律沒有修正那麼我還是站在一個如果他真的是被包含在內的時候有幾件事情我要從另外一個民間團體來扣問幾件事情"},{"start":13898.564,"end":13913.658,"text":"事實上目前兒童權利公約也好或CEDAW也就是關於婦女妾行事歧視公約消除對婦女妾行事的歧視公約裡面都有提到幾件事情也就是關於兒少的隱私權資訊的安全等等"},{"start":13914.471,"end":13929.484,"text":"以及關於性別平等這件事情是一個很重要的CDO跟CRC裡面很重要的一個意涵那麼這也是為什麼我剛才提到的那一些法案必須要把它提到一個不公開審理所以我再講幾件事"},{"start":13931.005,"end":13950.853,"text":"家事事件法不公開審理,例外公開的還是限於特定之人的旁聽所以他連這種公開審理都還不到,他只是列旁聽而已所以從來沒有一個可以對不特定人做公開審理的一個法律規範這個法律價值從"},{"start":13956.402,"end":13962.091,"text":"從2012年的家世間立法一直到現在 食物界非常堅守這個核心價值"},{"start":13963.095,"end":13983.332,"text":"所以取凡現在大家透過了自媒體做任何的網路爆料也好或者是去做一些嘲諷也好它其實都會是我們家暴法裡面有沒有涉及到精神暴力的一個議題或者是違反兒童最佳利益的一個含色"},{"start":13984.173,"end":14010.039,"text":"那麼我們為什麼會這麼認為呢而是因為這樣的一個撕裂對兒童絕對是一個不好的事情所以既然它是一個核心價值它在一個法律上我們有一個相當堅定的一個立場不公開審理這件事情是一個很堅定的一個立場那麼有幾件事情是從民間團體的立場我來說一件事情我除了是一個律師也除了是一個曾經是一個國事會議的委員"},{"start":14011.775,"end":14026.481,"text":"也是因為國事會議之後開始成立的一個司法院兒童性別委員會的一個委員之一到現在所以呢在這個歷史脈絡下面我們當然有幾個很考慮的點也就是說如果"},{"start":14027.714,"end":14054.582,"text":"我們的媒體我講媒體傳統媒體像齊凱就會非常清楚有守門員這一定有守門員一定會受到兒權服法裡面的相關規定跟廣電三法的規定關於這個報業工會裡面也有個自律委員會那麼是針對於兒少兒服權法裡面規範出來的紙媒跟這個電視媒體都有設立到的這種自律委員會來做把關的"},{"start":14055.402,"end":14080.479,"text":"但是網路媒體就是到現在都沒有所以法庭直播跟網路這件事情如果沒有任何的一個監督跟控款風險的一個控制情形下那個確實就是我們很焦慮的一件事第一個我就會先問如果假設他是被含涉進去我說假設我是希望是沒有的第一個網路霸凌這件事情我們至今都還沒有做有效的解決"},{"start":14081.781,"end":14094.315,"text":"我其實今天有提供了一個書面資料這裡頭去提到了一個在美國有一個社會組織在講霸凌不會因為下課而停止因為是有學生因為所謂的網路霸凌而自殺"},{"start":14096.297,"end":14113.898,"text":"那現在霸凌是24小時是不打烊霸凌是沒有辦法關機的情形也就是說法庭直播跟網路這邊的一個連結在一個沒有風險控管之下網路霸凌是一個我們至今都還沒有辦法解決的一個社會問題那麼董事基金會在2022年提到全台青少年有"},{"start":14115.7,"end":14124.247,"text":"2.5%遭受到網路霸凌那麼有以111年學年度全國國高中職學生總人數113萬人計總共有28250名的學生曾經受到網路霸凌5311名的學生曾經自傷"},{"start":14132.523,"end":14146.078,"text":"所以我要講這種風險是我無法控管而它造成的損害它那個damage的部分是相當的可怕的那這件事情如果說少事法或者是家事法它如果說用一個賣田補守的一個觀念來看我們如果沒有辦法守護住這些兒童的話"},{"start":14150.183,"end":14172.592,"text":"法庭直播變網路化這件事情是我們無法至今無法解決的困境第二個是高衝突家庭對孩子的傷害非常嚴重就是我剛才為什麼特地去講透過了網路的爆料也好或網路上的一個對話也好那麼對於這個衝突性是非常增加非常大的那麼我怎麼可以容許孩子們去目睹父母親的一個"},{"start":14173.832,"end":14192.983,"text":"互相在法庭上公解的一個現況呢這是一件很可怕的事情那剛才一直在講強尼戴普跟這個安伯赫德那我剛才看到一個訊息是他在這個法庭的直播裡面他找了一個心理學家去說安伯赫德"},{"start":14193.536,"end":14198.281,"text":"賀德他有borderline也就是邊緣性人格他說他曾經接觸過他12個小時然後他看過了他所有的言行還有他的心理報告等等所以他認為他可能有邊緣性人格"},{"start":14208.513,"end":14221.777,"text":"我如果沒記錯他應該沒有小孩但是如果說孩子去看到父母這種互相攻擊的衝突是被這樣的直播出來而且是全球性的在watch而且在這種二創也就是說再製的一個媒體報導的話那麼對於孩子的影響是非常的大的我要講的是法庭直播如果造成了網路化"},{"start":14230.999,"end":14256.334,"text":"那麼這些孩子們怎麼辦那第三個是討論到性別也就是其實行政院有提到一個數位性別暴力那麼大家其實也很清楚整個網路酸民也好對於性別的歧視仇恨性的語言等等是非常的嚴重的那麼在這裡頭呢包括他有沒有可能透過法庭直播而沒有辦法及時的去嚇止他而產生了一個散佈"},{"start":14257.595,"end":14284.566,"text":"關於仇視性言論等等這個是一個很嚴重的情形所以如果當我們對於網路霸凌對於高衝突的父母所透過的司法程序過程當中法庭直播而擴散了他的衝突面的時候以及再加上了我剛才去提到的數位性別暴力那麼這三件事情如果網路世界是無法對於兒少或關於性別這個議題能夠得到一個妥善風險的控管的情形下"},{"start":14285.626,"end":14302.438,"text":"我剛才以上所說的兒少級家事事件性侵害犯罪防治法都不疑有任何法庭公開的一個法庭直播的可能性我相信文龍應該也是這個意思剛才私底下跟他討論他認為說法庭直播我認為呢剛才那些法律是絕對被排除在所謂法庭直播的範圍"},{"start":14307.801,"end":14316.246,"text":"假設他是一個今天公聽會的共識那麼齊凱也在場那麼這部分法案絕對要做修正謝謝是 謝謝好 謝謝賴芳語 賴律師接下來請蔡議員發言"},{"start":14334.028,"end":14356.017,"text":"好,謝謝主席,很久沒來司法委員會了今天特別來這裡講一下基本上在討論這個法庭直播,我是覺得現在事實上台灣有部分的法庭事實上也都是採取直播的比方最經典的就是憲法法庭"},{"start":14356.738,"end":14364.728,"text":"那大家也是看了憲法法庭的直播那他針對法律上的一些論戰那會覺得說這個直播是有意義的直播"},{"start":14365.444,"end":14390.721,"text":"所以如果真的要推動法庭直播的話事實上這個才是一個好的方向也就是說他可能要涉及在我最高法院或者我最高行政法院甚至到了大法庭他們針對法律論點的爭議的時候我們來做法庭直播因為這個法律論點的爭議事實上這個討論對社會是有正面意義的但是如果回到了事實審"},{"start":14392.236,"end":14410.342,"text":"尤其在事實審的時候會有結問證人會有交婚結問甚至很多會有讓被害人做他的陳述意見的機會那這個時候適合法庭直播嗎基本上我認為這是不適合因為我們知道網路造成的很多是資訊的破碎化"},{"start":14411.428,"end":14438.993,"text":"他可能在網路上看到證人講了哪一句話可能說了不是這個社會民覺得說這句話怎麼聽這句話覺得是網路上大家比較喜歡的一些言論的方向那法庭直播怎樣灌爆 篩爆不然就是把他起底把證人起底這樣起來是很恐怖的那以後證人要去做交付結論的時候他有壓力"},{"start":14441.104,"end":14451.757,"text":"好那我們說法官呢法官大家說法官本來就要面對他要做審判他要面對他的一些社會責任那大家不要忘了我們現在也有國民法官"},{"start":14453.547,"end":14481.625,"text":"有一些案件是屬於國民法官的那國民法官他也必須要承載這樣的壓力嗎因為法庭直播所以我也覺得說大家要討論這個要持平而論為什麼今天不是像大家說的說這是黃國昌的法案大家就反對而是因為他的法案直接寫高等法院地方法院涉及到的涉及重大公共利益或社會矚目的案件社會矚目什麼是社會矚目啊"},{"start":14482.895,"end":14497.043,"text":"柯文哲這案的社會矚目所以這案的在法庭直播是這樣的嗎那這一案裡面也涉及到很多證人的結論真的在結論證人說要透過直播的方式來給證人不必要的壓力嗎"},{"start":14498.798,"end":14514.404,"text":"這個東西是要檢討的那再回到了整個國際法是在講的 去講中國 講中國的推法庭直播中國的法庭你們相信嗎中國的直播是要大家的審理過程 定義是要讓後面的人看的怎麼再講一個人質 充滿人質的中國然後說這是我們的榜樣我聽了這句話 我真的要佩服了真的要佩服 講中國"},{"start":14528.042,"end":14542.821,"text":"啊 你再說美國咧 美國他那部分州咧他是部分州他有做法庭直播 但是咧 他還是限縮比較可能是在民事 他在刑事上盡量去避免因為刑事涉及到的被害人"},{"start":14543.598,"end":14568.926,"text":"那在美國的憲法法庭他們是可以開放音訊事實上也不是直播就是說事後我把音訊再提供那如果適當的話這個音訊是可以提供給社會大眾的這是在美國的做法那在英國英國他們基本上也是禁止直播但是他們是允許法官在做一些重要宣示的時候"},{"start":14569.506,"end":14586.361,"text":"他可以把這個音訊檔案可以給外界就是法官在對這個案件做裁釋的時候那他們也是說但是呢我在播放法官的一些宣誓的時候你必須要避免去播放到當事人以及證人的畫面"},{"start":14587.122,"end":14611.492,"text":"尤其是他們的臉孔這在英國也是這個做法像德國日本這個基本上大家也很清楚韓國以前也有推動過直播後來韓國也因為這個在審理的過程變成鄉民化變成破碎化的一些在處理資訊的破碎化所以韓國後來也把這個東西都收起來了所以我想這不是說台灣輸人家輸其他國家"},{"start":14612.552,"end":14625.49,"text":"日韓這個普遍大家覺得民族性跟台灣是比較相仿的國家事實上日韓也是這樣做所以我還是一句話啦不要再說中國有直播 台灣就要在那邊直播"},{"start":14626.724,"end":14640.589,"text":"這句話真的是聽不下去那台灣要來推動法庭直播我也支持的一個層次就是說我們把它限縮在屬於高度法律性的它不涉及到了事實審不涉及到了證據調查的時候"},{"start":14643.03,"end":14658.706,"text":"如果單純就法論法法律的攻防論戰的時候這個時候來做直播是有意義的尤其最近司法院事實上也做了一個很重要的過去一個很重要的一個司法院大法庭的一個處理就是在講這個詐騙集團被害人的"},{"start":14663.556,"end":14688.714,"text":"這個車手的犯罪所得要怎麼認定的時候哇 有三派說法我覺得這一種討論事實上很適合直播因為社會也需要知道說這個被害人他如何對這個詐騙集團的一個犯罪所得來做他的追查這部分是有教育意義的我會覺得像這個財事直播這是好的啊 不得了如果以今天民眾黨黃國昌這樣的一個法案"},{"start":14690.953,"end":14707.472,"text":"到了地方法院 高等法院不管是民事 刑事只要說社會矚目 它就要直播這不可通啦用這樣的一個修法事實上也是害到柯文哲啦我們請民眾黨三思啦這樣對柯文哲更有好好 謝謝"},{"start":14711.799,"end":14736.202,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員那所有學者專家及登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那接著要進行機關代表發言以前我再來再做一個說明我們今天其實是正反意見讓所有的學者專家各政黨所推薦的來暢所欲言那其實今天得到的結論"},{"start":14737.443,"end":14761.56,"text":"大多數的結論大家也很清楚啦那尤其是涉及到整個法律審你說像譬如說大法庭的啦就是最高法院的啦這個機會好像比較大比較沒有意見但涉及到事實審的部分啦那問題就大啦問題有涉及到像譬如說這個是不是有隱私的部分啦還有這個公務秩序的部分甚至於還涉及到整個法官獨立審判這樣的一個問題"},{"start":14763.081,"end":14789.048,"text":"那這些其實都 為什麼我今天要排這一場 因為已經近乎二讀沒有把學者專家這些語律來讓社會知道 其實也不太好我有一個感慨 比如說這個條文的設計當然是講說只要有涉及到公眾利益的這個部分到最後是法官你去裁定就好了 要不要公開播送這個時候大家又很信賴法官"},{"start":14789.648,"end":14804.533,"text":"可是很怕這個做出來不符合期待的時候法官你就可以被幹掉了連憲法法庭法官走出來以後也是被幹掉所以這個是這就是我們的立法院這也沒辦法的事情有時候法律碰到政治"},{"start":14805.493,"end":14829.042,"text":"在日本的政治黨員就會凌駕那就很可惜可是它本質上它其實這個是一個整個法律制度要建立一個可長可久的碰到立法院我們這裡不要議會就比較麻煩了那接著我們來進行政府機關代表的發言我就不需要再說了那我們是不是請等一下喔然後請就"},{"start":14831.764,"end":14837.53,"text":"請就所送的書面資料以外的部分來做補充說明今天有收到五份書面資料 司法院一份 法務部一份 書法部一份通常會也一份 各自會也一份那除了請司法院法務部的機關代表進行說明以外我會再詢問其他的機關要不要做補充的一個說明"},{"start":14854.207,"end":14867.997,"text":"那現在進行發言 發言時間五分鐘請司法院副秘書長 王梅英副秘書長主席不好意思我來我可不可以請求 徵求主席的同意在機關開始發言之前我做一個小小的事實質問好 要補充發言是吧好 那來 請 請 請"},{"start":14869.338,"end":14890.609,"text":"很抱歉 因為身為這個司改國事會議第四分組唯一在場的委員我覺得我應該要補充一下這個事實資訊因為我覺得從早上聽下來這件事情感覺起來是重要的我們整個法案的討論 支持的先進絕大多數把它當成是司改國事會議的要求特別在立法理由的說明裡面也這樣講感覺我們司改國事會議好像做了一個結論說應該推動法庭直播"},{"start":14892.91,"end":14913.505,"text":"不過我昨天來之前特別有在做檢視各位可以回頭去看現在如果你找YouTube去找司改國是會第四分組第六次會議的發言它分成兩個部分請大家去看第一部分的大概是在53分50秒左右第二部分大概在3分15秒左右原先這個決議所使用的用語是"},{"start":14914.645,"end":14928.855,"text":"請司法院研擬開放的範圍與條件但是在這兩個段落裡面因為與會的先進跟機關代表都提出同一個疑慮就是你用研擬兩個字代表你決定要做了我只能夠擬定方法"},{"start":14929.355,"end":14956.885,"text":"但當然這是一個可以被討論的議題所以公開討論主管機關都沒有意見但是並不是說你已經決定了之後主管機關只能夠去設計一個直播的方法而已所以我想也許請大家再回頭去看一下這個段落會比較能夠清楚當時委員的意向因為我們現在好像整個把它當成是說這是司改國是會議一個比較強的要求也許我們看過之後會有不一樣的理解我補充以上的資訊"},{"start":14958.743,"end":14983.693,"text":"謝謝不過我倒也樂意看到他們這個其他政黨都變成是蔡英文前總統的追隨者啦但是那個國事會議當初這樣的一個看法倒也不是個別政治人物講了些什麼或者他位高權重要引領這個社會去做改革就一定到最後大家要跟著走中間可能會有所修正也都不一定來接下來我們請王副秘書長發言"},{"start":15000.711,"end":15023.923,"text":"好 那個主席委員還有各位在座那個先進現在已經是中午了 大家午安 大家好那我首先呢 我真的非常感謝貴委員會可以舉辦這一次的那個公聽會在這裡有非常那個睿智的那個思辨那可以那個廣大各界那個意見那司法院的意見呢 就如我們提出的那個書面那我在這裡我要口頭那個回應幾點"},{"start":15025.083,"end":15048.953,"text":"我覺得第一點要強調的是說那個司法院作為法組法的主管機關我們義不容辭的有義務要維護公平審判還有我們要確保每一個進入到法庭的人的訴訟參與者他的正當權益因此106年的司改國是會議"},{"start":15051.064,"end":15078.749,"text":"期间还有之后呢我们针对的那个法庭公播这样子一个议题呢有进行了严谨的那个政策评估那当时呢有委托那个学者进行这个专题研究这个专题研究它范围非常广的我们邀请了那个对于美国法专精的苏凯平林志杰教授对德国法熟悉的林孟奇教授还有那个日本法的"},{"start":15080.331,"end":15100.128,"text":"劉方林、劉英的謝國興教授都進行了一個非常廣泛的外國法還有一個政策的專題研究之後我們召開了學術研討會舉辦了北中南各場的焦點團體的公聽會一直到組成了法規諮詢會議諮詢會議的成員也涵蓋了審檢辯還有專家學者"},{"start":15108.335,"end":15132.778,"text":"焦點團體那歷經了這麼長的一個廣泛跟深入的那個研議之後呢最後我們深刻的認知到法庭直播這個議題呢它涉及到了太多的爭議那最後呢是因為沒有辦法獲至你的利益會大於弊端的這個結論因此呢司法院是很負責的"},{"start":15133.499,"end":15152.466,"text":"就是沒有貿然採行那剛才就是那個蔡元氏當年的委員現在那個組長他在這裡有補充說明就是說當時國事會議他所做的那個結論到底是什麼呢那我現在有把原始稿帶過來其實他最後的結論是要司法院一年之內研議"},{"start":15153.706,"end":15164.414,"text":"是嚴議 他其實不是要就是立刻要那個採刑喔那司法院呢 基於以上的說明呢其實我們是有所為 有所不為就是在經過很嚴謹的一個嚴議之後呢我們貿然 我們不敢貿然的那個採刑喔"},{"start":15170.618,"end":15194.15,"text":"那這裡要特別說呢這絕對不是司法院的一個行政帶墮這是要向大家向公眾就是說明的那第二再來說明的本次這個立法委員呢提出了這一件那個修正案那讓這個法庭公佈了這個議題呢再度的那個熱議可是呢我們看一下那個時空背景和106年107年當時的環境比較呢時至今日"},{"start":15199.733,"end":15215.354,"text":"數位資料傳播還有這個重置那個技術呢都更容易更普及了齁那還有現在這個自媒體盛行蓬勃這個是當年那個不同的那個環境齁那我們再看一下齁"},{"start":15216.315,"end":15230.72,"text":"這些技術層面AI生成技術的發展速度它遠遠超過了趣味驗真技術的精進這個也是我們法院端現在面臨就是這種證據調查一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":15232.162,"end":15255.68,"text":"好 那所以以至於法庭公佈它可能產生的弊病跟疑慮更甚以往那這一次那個修正案它進覆二讀之後它沒有辦法在立法院的委員會中獲得充分的討論我必須說這很可惜的但是在草案提出之後"},{"start":15257.13,"end":15280.24,"text":"一個月來包括了法官檢察官律師等的司法實務工作者婦女兒少依賴司法那個捍衛權益的弱勢團體還有像法醫學會等協助法院發現真實的鑑定人團體還有更多的這個法律專家學者所組成的那個學會"},{"start":15281.38,"end":15296.099,"text":"以及促進人權團體保障的這個團體跟個人呢都紛紛的對這一次那個提案表達什麼表達反對保留或者是要求暫緩立法的立場那我們必須說齁"},{"start":15297.781,"end":15323.6,"text":"這個是我從事司法工作三十幾年來呢歷來就是很少看到司法制度在立法程序中呢少見獲得強大的那個共識拜託給我一點時間這我們司法院很少機會可以講話那今天那個立法院召開公聽會呢我們聆聽了各方的專家學者的那個的意見呢我發現大家對於那個法庭直播呢有以下高度疑慮第一點呢它會影響證人鑑定人"},{"start":15324.761,"end":15342.012,"text":"到庭作證的意願那這個有害真實發現第二點是訴訟輿論這會危及到公平審判第三點他會過度的侵犯法庭參與者的隱私權人格權但是但是欠缺了一個核限性的基礎第四個呢"},{"start":15343.103,"end":15369.421,"text":"很重要的公開播送的資訊呢它是不可迴逆的出去了永久就是出去了那可是目前呢它沒有那個缺乏有效跟妥善的那個管制跟救濟的那個機制換言之從106年私改國事會議召開以來呢各界對於法庭公播的爭議跟疑慮呢到現在還是存在沒有一個合理的一個那個解決"},{"start":15370.442,"end":15397.725,"text":"那再次重申 司法院作為法律的主責機關我們有責任提出一個良善的司法給付當然要審慎的對待各界對於貿然採行法庭公佈的這些疑慮訴求者認為說這個可以促進司法的公開透明跟獲得監督但是剛才的先進也都有提到了現行法上已經有這麼多的"},{"start":15399.146,"end":15415.954,"text":"法庭公開、旁聽、全程錄音、裁判書公開甚至於現在也採行了國民參審這麼多的機制都已經可以達到相同的目的了那我們看看其他先進國家他們採行這個目的也是用公開審判來作為確保司法公開的做法我們和其他先進國家是並無二致的"},{"start":15425.618,"end":15451.195,"text":"那多數的先進國家呢多數也都是不允許法庭公播的基於以上理由呢司法院現階段呢是沒有辦法贊成法庭公播而且對於倉促立法呢我們必須表達很深切的那個憂慮齁那最後呢也敬請立法院呢可以暫緩審議這一次法庭公播修法的提案以上 敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":15455.315,"end":15464.717,"text":"謝謝王副秘書長接下來我們請法務部徐政次來發言主席各位學者專家委員大家午安"},{"start":15482.011,"end":15508.706,"text":"知情權是我們不管是司法院或者是法務部其實我們也一直在維護也在保護的一個權利各項的制度也是朝這個方向在改進設計公開審理其實就是現行制度剛才王副秘書長講得非常的清楚以現有的裁判書的公開審理的制度跟延伸法庭的設計還有國民法官法庭"},{"start":15509.346,"end":15527.424,"text":"我想這些設計無非就是要讓民眾有知悉這個審判過程的一些機會但是一個制度的推我們要推到什麼程度公開播送法庭的整個過程也是一個方式"},{"start":15528.086,"end":15547.278,"text":"但是呢 他推的過程 推到這個極致讓民眾可以一杯啤酒在家裡的客廳就可以直接看法庭上證人被嫁禿結吻這個也是一個方式但是我們要深深地去感受我們要付出怎麼樣的代價"},{"start":15549.571,"end":15577.323,"text":"我們可不可以因為要把它推到極致對於社會所付出來的代價我們都不管它我想這是一個政策你訂一個需要考慮的地方那剛才王副秘書長對於這一個公開播送的這部分呢他有提出會有四點影響我可以在此再重申第一個就是一定會影響到事實發現我們當檢察官的要求證人來作證"},{"start":15578.243,"end":15595.786,"text":"那是用拜託跟告證的證人一般來講不太願意作證來指出這個被告的犯行今天如果你把他送到我們的法庭還要直播我相信所有的證人都不願意來就算來了他也會說我不記得"},{"start":15597.388,"end":15612.5,"text":"鑑定人 剛才有委員也提到醫師鑑定的部分現在光是居民 家戶結婚所有的人都退卻 不願意當鑑定人你今天叫這些醫生來接受直播我相信 這又是我們另外一個難題我們"},{"start":15615.358,"end":15638.537,"text":"我們對這個部分就非常非常的擔心所以這些相關的法庭的參與者對於真實他不願意講出來的時候對於我們整個真實的發現絕對是一個很大的困難那第二個是公民審辦剛才王副院長也特別提到所有我們參與這一個法庭活動的人如果還要承受直播所帶來的壓力的話"},{"start":15640.126,"end":15668.341,"text":"有一些新政的行程或許會受到影響這已經剝奪了被告的公平審判的權利第三個是對於訴訟參與者的基本權的一個侵害我們都知道被告有無罪推定原則那今天就很擔心這個案子到公告法庭的時候所有的輿論都認為他是有罪的他再怎麼講每天網路上所播出的內容都是他這個人罪大惡極"},{"start":15670.049,"end":15685.996,"text":"那有一天他得到一個無罪判決我相信全國的人都不相信他是無罪的他怎麼說都沒有用因為他已經被公審了那今天換一個角度來看如果他今天是有罪的因為大家很多委員提出來都是有罪的案例"},{"start":15686.696,"end":15712.697,"text":"他是有罪的那我們要知道更生啊我們要讓他重新回歸社會啊可是你今天都已經把他標籤化了他如何回歸社會這個紀錄會一輩子跟著他所以這個對他人權是一定有傷害更何況所有參與的人的隱私權都會被攤出來這個對於憲法保障的基本人權是有妨礙的第四個也是國事會議召集人他有講到一個說"},{"start":15714.238,"end":15722.624,"text":"公開播送內容資訊是必要的但是他有講一句話不曉得各位有沒有聽到他說剩下的就是安全機制的部分"},{"start":15724.215,"end":15744.194,"text":"對 這就是我們最擔心的地方 安全機制的部分這個一公播出去 我們完全沒有辦法去防止人家會剪輯或者是誤導瞬間就傳播出去 輿論的風向 或者是將來惡意的來使用這些我們完全沒有辦法去防止 所以"},{"start":15745.253,"end":15766.112,"text":"今天要採用這樣的制度一定要審慎的考慮它所帶來的一個嚴重的社會成本所以那我們本部的態度就是希望能夠權衡各種權力的保護以及制度的風險我想今天文法官也講得很清楚這個有關於這個風險來仔細的來觀察評估以上"},{"start":15772.919,"end":15787.289,"text":"好 謝謝徐市長那其實現在來看的話這也盡到尾聲了以現在目前實務的狀況因為我們常常說公判庭公判庭就是公開的審判程序"},{"start":15788.55,"end":15808.93,"text":"那判決書判下去當然會公開啊那你法庭上當然會留下這個整個錄音錄影的一個記錄啊那但是呢今天從國會裡面的角度他可能比較著重於就是說民眾比較知的權利啦如果透過公眾去這樣一個一個監督"},{"start":15810.583,"end":15838.099,"text":"民調很難去看說這個讓民眾說很這個去講得很清楚說做這份民調該有數據正反疑慮呈現給這個接到電話的人所以有時候做出來的民調那當然就是會一面倒但是這些也都值得參考的一個依據有一些疑慮我最後我不得不講在立法院所講的這些我都很怕會有誤導"},{"start":15839.58,"end":15853.176,"text":"一個訴訟尤其是社會重大矚目的訴訟如果都是在做整個媒體上的訴求或者公眾的一個訴求而沒有著墨在法庭上的實際行動的話"},{"start":15855.018,"end":15880.843,"text":"我都覺得這種官司都常常會莫名其妙不夠專業的人才會這樣子以上就讓大家去做一個參考啦剛剛徐次也提到了這些負面的影響其實我還會覺得最大的負面影響就是我們現在的國民法官國民法官在那裡 大家的妹子也是都有壓力所以這些像比如說你那些人看到電視之後"},{"start":15882.663,"end":15899.889,"text":"你國民法官喔 我不知道那個身份有時候當然去的人他就不怕啦但是畢竟你用公開播送的方式然後到最後又被那個表情也好片段的發言前面講了一段後面也許他有更正可是就切前面那一段"},{"start":15900.809,"end":15919.326,"text":"這個也都麻煩那不管如何啦那今天我是很盡力啦本來是台灣民眾黨這一份已經敬負惡毒了那我們是剛好是翁小玲委員這一份剛好在立法理由說明裡面就講到這個透明性的一個問題我是抓這一句來"},{"start":15920.767,"end":15930.43,"text":"讓整個法庭公開播送的部分啊這個到底是不是有這個透明性的問題這個疑慮來召開這一場公聽會否則啊 近乎二讀啦我連召開公聽會的機會都沒有啊那當然到朝野協商的時候我們再來看看啦再來看看就看看各位今天的學者專家的寶貴意見有沒有受到其他政黨的一個尊重來"},{"start":15951.264,"end":15955.228,"text":"請問其他的列席的各機關有沒有需要再做補充說明今天公聽會的發言我們就到此告一個段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向來提供很多的寶貴的意見"},{"start":15973.783,"end":15998.73,"text":"今天各位所有的發言內容跟書面的意見以及委員審發會 環國昌等所提的書面資料都會列入記錄刊登公報並製成公聽會的一個報告送交本院全體委員及本日出席人員的一個參考鄭文榮理事長 各位有什麼意見嗎我補充兩句 就是說"},{"start":16000.29,"end":16025.1,"text":"這個立法院直播是蘇嘉全院長任內推動的我要特別讚許他第二個就是說剛剛有提到議論審判其實台灣議論審判沒有好好去討論過怎麼解決其實議論審判在美國的1807年的Alan Blunt的案子就開始John Marshall最高法院的大法官就已經裁決也有一套的議論審判的處理方法"},{"start":16025.62,"end":16052.258,"text":"但是今天我完全沒有看到有學者專家去解決所謂的輿論審判那希望以後大院可以在針對輿論審判的部分來做一個公聽或什麼來討論 謝謝好 謝謝我希望我也有機會來請更多的學者專家來表達意見那我們本次的公聽會我們就到此結束謝謝大家 現在散會扁桶扁桶 扁桶快點發下去 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請問在場委員對於上次會議的議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好 那我們議事錄確定現在我們介紹在場委員羅美玲委員陳俊宇委員接下來我們介紹列席的官員這個部長 顧立雄先生 謝謝顧部長副參謀總長執行官 洪志偉上將常務次長 楊基隆中將"},{"start":2125.714,"end":2153.414,"text":"全民防衛動員署署長李定忠中將督察總督察長張元勛中將參事石文龍中將政務辦公室主任孫立芳中將政治作戰局局長陳玉玲中將軍備局局長林文祥中將主計局局長謝其賢中將軍醫局醫務管理處處長王玉琦上校"},{"start":2155.425,"end":2179.918,"text":"戰略規劃司司長黃文綺中將資源規劃司司長藍靜婷女士法律事務司副司長陳子怡先生整合評估司司長苗慧芬女士國防採購事主任趙雅萍中將人事參謀次長是次長劉佩志中將情報參謀次長是次長謝日申中將"},{"start":2182.13,"end":2192.773,"text":"作戰及計畫參謀次長是次長連志偉中將後期參謀次長是次長李鳳翔中將通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩聯中將訓練參謀次長是次長郭俊德中將陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮中將空軍司令部參謀長李慶然中將"},{"start":2212.799,"end":2241.553,"text":"後備指揮部參謀長薛恩泉少將憲兵指揮部參謀長呂振芳少將陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤少將職東電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥少將軍事情報局執行長李永康少將電訊發展室執行長林振偉少校國防大學教育長李承忠少將國家中山科學研究院院長李士強中將"},{"start":2243.342,"end":2267.59,"text":"行政院主席總署專門委員張正輝先生謝謝那請醫事人員宣讀報告及討論事項報告事項二 邀請國防部報告海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行存效並被質詢三處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算提出書面報告後 使得動資等二十九案"},{"start":2268.47,"end":2284.14,"text":"第一案陸軍司令部第八幕第二節向下河嶺冒險訓練場預算凍結五百萬元案第二案海軍司令部第八幕第三節向下載人公務車輛籌補預算凍結三百萬元案第三案海軍司令部第八幕第四節向下國軍後備"},{"start":2286.081,"end":2295.31,"text":"後備部隊未請裝備整備第二階段預算凍結435萬元案第四案空軍司令部第13目向下設施及機械設備養護費預算凍結1793萬元案第五案軍醫局第1目向下"},{"start":2301.135,"end":2322.005,"text":"案件計資籌金預算凍結100萬元案第6案軍醫局第一幕向下物品預算凍結100萬元案第7案軍醫局第一幕向下一般事務費預算凍結150萬元案第8案軍醫局第三幕向下對特種基金資補助預算凍結300萬元案第9案陸軍司令部第三幕向下動員準備預算凍結500萬元案第10案陸軍司令部第8幕第二節向下城鎮站訓練場及"},{"start":2329.648,"end":2354.133,"text":"核生化訓練場新建工程先期規劃案預算凍結一百萬元案第十一案海軍司令部第一幕向下按日案件技資籌進預算凍結十五萬元案第十二案海軍司令部第一幕向下設施及機械設備養護費預算凍結七十萬元案第十三案海軍司令部第三幕向下教育行政預算凍結一百萬元案第十四案海軍司令部第八幕第四節向下發展海軍官校"},{"start":2357.033,"end":2377.565,"text":"基礎及專業經濟教育設備師預算凍結100萬元案第15案空軍司令部第三幕向下國令旅費預算凍結200萬元案第16案空軍司令部第五幕向下新式高校機性能科目軌跡噴煙裝置預算凍結500萬元案第17案全民防衛動員署第三幕向下其他業務駐軍預算凍結200萬元案第18案"},{"start":2381.314,"end":2383.88,"text":"陸軍司令部第八幕第二節向下莊訓部長安營區訓練場整建工程案預算凍結500萬元案"},{"start":2388.069,"end":2413.167,"text":"第十九案 陸軍司令部 第五目向下路通用行油罐車採購案預算凍結 五百萬元案 第二十案第二項決議 括弧一 預算凍結案 括弧密第二十一案 第二項決議 括弧三 預算凍結案 括弧密第二十二案 第二項決議 括弧四 預算凍結案 括弧密第二十三案 第二項決議 括弧五 預算凍結案 括弧密第二十四案 第二項決議"},{"start":2414.628,"end":2427.277,"text":"瓜湖6預算凍結案 瓜湖密第25案 第二項決議 瓜湖9預算凍結案 瓜湖密第26案 第二項決議 瓜湖13預算凍結案 瓜湖密第27案 第二項決議 瓜湖15預算凍結案 瓜湖密第28案 第二項決議 瓜湖22 預算凍結案 密第29案 第二項決議 瓜湖23預算凍結案 密"},{"start":2438.55,"end":2465.24,"text":"討論事項處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算凍結案一海軍司令部第一幕向下行政事務至一般事務費預算凍結百分之五十專案報告案二國防部主管預算凍結案等事實案強附表二第二案至第四十一案第二案陸軍司令部第五幕向下搬用機槍預算凍結六百萬元案第三案陸軍司令部第八幕第二節向下"},{"start":2466.58,"end":2491.523,"text":"戰甲車掩體新建工程第一階段預算凍結一千萬元案第四案陸軍司令部第八幕第二節向下清兵器靶場新建工程掀起規劃案預算凍結一百萬元案第五案海軍司令部第五幕向下多功能特種作戰訓練場預算凍結一千萬元案第六案海軍司令部第五幕向下訓練複合式標靶建案預算凍結一千萬元案"},{"start":2493.066,"end":2512.313,"text":"第七案 海軍司令部第五目向下 國軍重要防護營區 聚衛型警艦系統建置案 括五第二階段預算凍結10%案第八案 海軍司令部第五目向下 仁興市短程防空飛彈預算凍結1億元案第九案 空軍司令部第五目向下 興市高級教訓機預算凍結4億9千萬元案"},{"start":2516.594,"end":2539.425,"text":"第十案 空軍司令部第五幕向下 兼徵起無人機預算凍結10%案第十一案 空軍司令部第八幕第四節向下 國軍衛生部隊衛情裝備整備預算凍結10%案第十二案 直通電軍指揮部第四幕向下 軍事裝備及設施預算凍結1000萬元案第十三案 軍備局第十一幕向下"},{"start":2540.505,"end":2564.954,"text":"國防先進科技研究計畫預算凍結五千萬元案第十四案本部第二幕國防政策規劃與督導預算凍結一百萬元案第十五案本部第二幕向下獎補助費對國內團體支捐助案預算凍結一千三百五十萬元案第十六案陸軍司令部第三幕向下按日案件記資籌金預算凍結兩百萬元案第十七案陸軍司令部第四幕向下軍事裝備設施養護費預算凍結五千萬元案"},{"start":2567.755,"end":2577.323,"text":"第18案陸軍司令部第4幕向下軍事裝備設施養物費預算凍結5000萬元案第19案陸軍司令部第5幕向下戰術型進程無人飛行載具二階段預算凍結3500萬元案第20案陸軍司令部第5幕向下木貨型無人機預算凍結2000萬元案第21案陸軍司令部第5幕向下兼徵型無人機預算凍結1300萬元案"},{"start":2592.356,"end":2610.516,"text":"第22案陸軍司令部第8幕第二節向下裝訓部坑子口訓練場整建工程案預算凍結1000萬元案第23案空軍司令部第5幕向下F16AB型戰機性能提升預算凍結800萬元案第24案空軍司令部第5幕向下F16型"},{"start":2611.156,"end":2639.975,"text":"基远距精准武器筹购案预算冻结10%案第25案空军司令部第五目向下高高空无燃机系统预算冻结5亿元案第26案空军司令部第五目向下F16VBlock70型基作战支援夹枪及武器弹药筹购案预算冻结3000万元案第27案全民防卫动员署第五目向下新型步枪预算冻结1000万元案第28案全民防卫动员署第五目向下"},{"start":2641.916,"end":2662.423,"text":"國軍HF通信機換裝案預算凍結五萬三千元案第二十九案參謀本部第四目向下車輛及辦公器具養護費預算凍結百分之十案第三十案陸軍司令部第三目向下物品預算凍結七百萬元案第三十一案第二項決議括弧七預算凍結案密第三十二案"},{"start":2663.223,"end":2672.412,"text":"第二項決議關乎8預算凍結案命第33案第二項決議關乎11預算凍結案命第34案第二項決議關乎12預算凍結案命第35案第二項決議關乎14預算凍結案關乎命第36案第二項決議"},{"start":2681.681,"end":2684.522,"text":"第37案第二項決議第38案第二項決議第39案第二項決議第40案第二項決議第41案第二項決議宣讀完畢"},{"start":2704.448,"end":2727.684,"text":"好那我們先把報告事項跟討論事項都先念了那我們先處理這一個報告事項3這個是處理院會交付1億4年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算凍結案是這個是提出書面報告後使得凍之這邊有29案那現在書面報告都已經送交本會請問各位委員對於預算解凍有無異議"},{"start":2730.135,"end":2757.574,"text":"沒有異議那均同意動之提報院會那接下來等一下的這個要這個書面報告並經同意的我們就等到這個質詢完畢之後我們再來處理那本日會議邀請國防部就海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效做報告並被質詢同時也就這個預算的解凍案必須要同意後時得動之的其中包含專案報告一案來進行報告"},{"start":2759.316,"end":2777.878,"text":"請國防部顧部長上台報告各位委員先進今日大院安排專案報告及解凍議程,本部在此表達"},{"start":2779.642,"end":2799.747,"text":"誠摯謝意感謝各位委員長期關心國防事務並給予各項指導為適應兩岸局劇升溫的敵情威脅本部針對聯合反制、整體防空、海上截擊等作戰需求編列特別預算執行海風戰力提升計畫採購案並以民國一百一十一年至一百一十五年籌獲各式"},{"start":2801.047,"end":2827.064,"text":"精準飛彈、載台等裝備有效強化國軍整體防衛能量建構可視嚇阻戰力達成防衛固守、重層嚇阻之作戰需求以確保國家安全與區域和平穩定本部將全力督管中科院及各建安軍種缺一計畫目標籌建海空戰力提升計畫所需各式武器裝備並兼顧戰力提升與貫徹國防自主政策"},{"start":2831.047,"end":2835.293,"text":"本次辦理解凍計70案,其中討論事項41案、專案報告1案、書面報告40案新台幣22億6628萬元,針對委員所關切個案執行現況檢討與經濟能作為等項,均以決議指導辦理個案凍結"},{"start":2849.831,"end":2868.984,"text":"預算呢?軍委本部施政所必須請各位委員鼎力支持預算解凍BASE各項國防施政及建軍規劃順利推行接續由軍備局局長林文祥中將實施海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效專案報告及海軍參謀長邱俊榮中將實施海軍一般事務費凍結50%專案報告謝謝"},{"start":2887.236,"end":2910.391,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好 軍備局局長報告海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效專案報告一 前言為適應兩岸集聚升溫之敵情威脅快速提升國軍整體防衛能力本部編列特別預算籌獲海空戰力提升計畫各式武器系統並提升國軍整體戰力現緊就採購進度及執行成效 說明如後"},{"start":2911.572,"end":2923.361,"text":"計劃目標至111.7.115.1聯合反制整理防空及海上截擊等作戰需求邊內特別預算新台幣2369億5000萬餘元以八類十項專案籌建、安置反艦飛彈、高效能艦艇、海巡艦艇加裝戰時武器、萬艦飛彈無人攻擊載具、雄生飛彈、陸軍防空飛彈及野戰防空飛彈等武器系統三"},{"start":2939.432,"end":2957.342,"text":"113年執行成效本計劃113年獲付特別預算573億元規劃籌建各型飛彈載台軍事設施及通信指管裝備等四項執行成效分數如後一 專案執行進度飛彈籌購進度年度以一計劃產製各式飛彈並截角軍種擔任戰備任務執行進度100%載台籌購進度"},{"start":2965.646,"end":2968.212,"text":"年度以一計劃產製各式機動載台並節繳軍種擔任戰備任務執行進度百分之百"},{"start":2972.917,"end":2999.735,"text":"軍事設施策建進度年度一計畫完成各項軍事設施並移交軍種執行戰備任務執行進度82.97%其中陸軍航空系統陣地工程前因山坡地水土保持問題需配合農田水利署現康排驗作業核定方可辦理變更設計陣地工程施作限於114年3月28日完成驗收任務執行進度100%"},{"start":3002.176,"end":3014.546,"text":"通信指管裝備籌貨進度年度已依計劃產製各式通信指管裝備並交互海軍及海巡署應用執行進度百分之百二預算自用113年度貨物預算573億5975萬"},{"start":3019.19,"end":3023.154,"text":"5566元包含了113年分配預算489億6334萬6千元及112年接轉數83億9640萬9566113年滯用數563億餘元滯用率98.25%接轉數管制於本年度內滯用完畢 詳如效表1請參閱"},{"start":3044.676,"end":3048.72,"text":"三 試商成果113年度試商規劃348.1億元採購簽約325.3億元試商成效達93.5以執行採購試商計5107案參與的廠商計有1983家"},{"start":3062.375,"end":3072.322,"text":"跨足 機械 電子 營造 資通 造船 汽車 化學 光電等各產業產業衍生效益達650.6億元 增加就業人口17358人有效創造國防安全與擴大產業鏈經濟動能效益之雙引目標市場總計表 祥儒下表二 請參閱"},{"start":3085.131,"end":3105.44,"text":"四 強化履約及專案督管機制為確保各型武器系統與裝備確依計劃期程完成籌建並防篤違安及違法歧視本部督管作法如後一 嚴格落實利益迴避中科院目前列管利益迴避職務對象計3358人該院每日以系統針對構案得標廠商負責人董"},{"start":3111.903,"end":3129.24,"text":"董事、理事、監事等與列管的職務實施勾基比對截至113年12月底已查核了1094筆未發現有違反規定的情形要求該院持續勾基比對以落實利益迴避二"},{"start":3130.101,"end":3151.17,"text":"強化廠商查核機制本部108年部班國防科技工業合作廠商安全調查執行做法由偵探局保防安全處對中科院及涉密合約廠商參與國防安全事務前審酌專案實質內容以涉密程度完成安全查核以防範機敏資訊外洩三"},{"start":3154.291,"end":3181.592,"text":"嚴禁錄製品滲入要求政科院缺一113年不頒國軍採購禁用大陸地區香港澳門產品認定及履約驗收作業指導與採購文件明定禁止錄製錄製品開標前實施背景查核投標要求提供料件產地來源決標後加強製程的查核針對契約規範禁用錄製原料原件情形適合查驗與杜絕錄製品"},{"start":3184.374,"end":3192.459,"text":"四 專案督管機制 針對中科院各專案執行計畫節點軍總每月召開專案整合團隊會議及本部納編各業管聯參每兩個月召開審議作業整合團隊會議就專案的風險 工進及預算執行進度綿密管控並採定期不定期的查查集合"},{"start":3206.989,"end":3221.793,"text":"另具風險專案足及提報方式由軍備副部長每月召開會議管制確保專案執行無虞順利達成年度量產任務五、114年度執行規劃本計劃114年度貨戶特別預算474億3998萬4千元籌建雄風、天艦系統及天空三型等各型飛彈機動載台等各式裝備及軍事設施"},{"start":3235.857,"end":3261.569,"text":"針對海空戰力提升計畫各項專案須由本部依規劃期程督管建案軍種及中科院落實執行並滿足年度量產任務六節語本計劃依防衛固守、重層嚇阻軍事戰略指導與對短期程內籌建成熟效高及快速形成戰力之各式軍種揮彈與海軍高效能艦艇有效強化國軍整體"},{"start":3262.409,"end":3282.518,"text":"防衛能量建構可視嚇阻戰力感謝大院各委員指導有關海攻戰力提升計畫113年各項工作均於計畫期程執行本部入力按節點管制武器裝備獲得並且全案推動國內私商帶動國防產業發展升級逐步建構完整國防產業供應鏈報告完畢 敬請指導"},{"start":3294.249,"end":3322.165,"text":"主席先進跟各位委員大家早我是海軍參謀長報告行政書費凍結的狀況報告一前言海軍113年7月造成性騷擾個案經性評會調查機制合意給予必要行政懲處為審議期間單位位移規定完備保護被害人應有權益人有精進空間令通盤檢討分析性騷擾案件噪音為性評教育未增普及"},{"start":3322.805,"end":3331.873,"text":"各級督管機制未落實及法紀觀念未能升職等三項二、噪音檢討一、性平教育未增普及"},{"start":3332.952,"end":3354.68,"text":"就海軍歷年性騷擾案件太陽分析造成與長官與部署之間比例較高同儕間次之就噪音分析可歸納為性平教育為深入基層與內部管理不善所衍生各單位須排定性平生活座談以及專案講述等宣教課程為教材內容較為刻板"},{"start":3357.745,"end":3378.272,"text":"且未執行課後的檢核,透過測驗與湊驗的方式自流於形式,難達失效。而各級督管機制未落實,在考核方面,各級隊所屬負有督導與管理職責,依全程分層督管性平教育執行成效,應建立具體機制性的考核做法。"},{"start":3379.383,"end":3404.691,"text":"在執行面方面,現已建立性騷擾案件處理準據為相關幹部未依規定妥善將加害人隔離、被害人保護委員會遴選及利害關係人迴避等措施採取必要保密程序與落實法規觀念未能升值為防範性平安噪聲,須藉持恆不斷的法規宣教樹立正確性別相處與行為規範"},{"start":3407.632,"end":3413.46,"text":"違反後相關的罰則對個人職癌生涯的發展的影響以達二指的效果"},{"start":3415.131,"end":3444.64,"text":"各單位辦理軍人懲罰的案件依現行《陸海空懲罰法》一行為一法的辦理為法律未參納、肅行為之犯意及整體影響予以相對應的懲處的一個程度是113年8月7日總統公布之《陸海空懲罰法》以完備懲罰機制並修訂為合一評價的程度規劃在今年下半年予以施行三、精進作為依廣採多元教育"},{"start":3445.967,"end":3461.649,"text":"海軍會推動性貧工作小組,每季編組性貧業務督導成員,赴各單位實施教育服防及課後的檢核,並就直屬長官、個別官士兵與內部管理等三個面向進行考核。"},{"start":3462.844,"end":3478.767,"text":"在直屬長官部分,致重點於性平案件處理程序與法規,並於課後實施測驗,使其了解主觀職責、行為分際及所涉法則,以消除性別歧視,促進性別地位實質平等。"},{"start":3480.046,"end":3499.482,"text":"就個別官兵的含聘僱人員部分自重遠於性別相處的行為限制及懲處影響個人發展等以受替力之效在強化內部管理部分則由各基層單位主觀與管理面營造性別尊重的環境並則由上一級單位"},{"start":3500.763,"end":3524.287,"text":"督導管理自動典於領導統一與內部的院隊處理有效發掘單位潛藏的問題針對好發的太陽列入宣教聚焦於職務關係性騷擾防範令廣採多元的活化教育以簡易法規丁寧預案如何舉發的內涵發揮實效二長化督管機制"},{"start":3526.278,"end":3534.968,"text":"採定期營務營歸督檢或不定期督檢的方式赴损署部隊生活或辦公處所了解性平工作推動與常規執行的狀況協助發掘潛存問題"},{"start":3539.52,"end":3555.6,"text":"要求主觀強化管控作為,造成疑似性平安時及啟動調查機制,落實加害人隔離、被害人保護或證人保密等作為,並就上一級督管的責任列入考核。3."},{"start":3555.6,"end":3556.381,"text":"適衡法規教育"},{"start":3557.582,"end":3572.947,"text":"針對部隊特性依職場性平工作法,所列單位負責人的責任,一般或權勢性騷擾,經證定後,由詐案單位所在縣市政府予以發言等太樣,將納入法紀課程實施宣教。"},{"start":3574.495,"end":3579.26,"text":"廣布參據新修正的陸來空軍懲罰法第55條數個違紀行為合一評價的規定以研修法令納入綜合懲處的一個評定將強化宣教並落實辦理懲處"},{"start":3588.973,"end":3607.368,"text":"然未健全性平的一個處理的機制,經組成性騷擾申訴會進行調查成立之後,透由懲罰評議會的機制,按其身份異別、違犯態樣及騷擾的一個危害的程度,審認之後施予適當的懲處,確保處置合宜,並兼顧當事人救濟的程序。"},{"start":3612.532,"end":3638.82,"text":"是 結語 依大院對新操導案件指導海軍將廣採多元教育強化多管機制及持恆法紀教育等作為避免內岸再生另考量行政事務費向下預算需維持海軍所屬400多個單位基本運作官兵生活設施改善及災害防救支出等任務所需預算見其大院准以解凍 逼力各項工作順利推動報告完畢 敬請指導"},{"start":3644.363,"end":3661.259,"text":"好那我們現在開始詢答那今天呢我們是三四一次會那理由是因為當然第一個我國人都很關心一直以來的這個特別預算今年也有特別預算的提出所以針對之前11年到115年的這一個海空戰力提升計畫的這個相關的這個預算當然是"},{"start":3664.142,"end":3680.907,"text":"我覺得定期來這邊做一個檢核對於我們之後要去審酌未來的這個特別預算應該很有幫助但更重要的事情就是因為我們這個解凍案到現在還是沒有辦法解凍完那裡面有其中一項是這個凍結50%的那因為它不是書面報告並進同意它是專案報告並進同意所以大家應該有聽到就是說專門針對這個性平相關的專案報告"},{"start":3692.41,"end":3717.082,"text":"所以我們三四一次會議 最後還要處理討論事項最後書面同意 書面報告要同意時還有40個案件所以事情比較多所以本會委員今天6加2分鐘 非本會委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出 11點左右處理我們現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3727.153,"end":3729.755,"text":"謝謝主席,有請顧部長有請顧部長是,羅委員好部長好,部長,繼這個今年的三月之後呢中國在今年的六月初呢,又電民通緝我國之通電軍指揮部二十名的成員呢來做這個發布宣傳的這個通告"},{"start":3752.93,"end":3762.253,"text":"然後呢指控他們涉嫌從事對中國軍政系統的這個網路的攻擊而且呢每一個人是以萬元人民幣的獻賞來鼓勵這個民眾來做這個舉報而且呢還公布了我們這20位成員的這個大頭照啦姓名還有這個身份證字我想請問部長我們國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":3776.698,"end":3780.803,"text":"這些資訊畢竟還是屬於個資那中國是如何得知我們這20位資通電軍的這個成員的這個資料請問部長我們是不是請中間先"},{"start":3792.868,"end":3817.655,"text":"跟您報告那這些資料都是從網路上一些舊的這些網路資料來拼湊而來拼湊那所謂拼湊是這20位成員的姓名大頭照跟身份證字號他們是一致的嗎這資料都是對的嗎所謂拼湊是什麼意思就是這些人有錯誤嗎"},{"start":3819.489,"end":3842.408,"text":"這些目前查是舊的資料這是舊的資料那這些成員還在我們執行部嗎?有三分之二人員都已經退伍了所以三分之二已經退伍了其實有些成員還在我們資通電軍指揮部裡面對,少部分而已那少部分這些成員他公布的資訊是對的嗎?"},{"start":3843.829,"end":3870.181,"text":"都是舊的資料舊的資料對OK好我想請教接下來就是我想請教的就是我們自通電軍我們依照國家情報工作法第三條第二項規定已經是同意我國情報的機關其實應該要接受嚴格安全的查核跟保密的規範可是我剛剛聽您在講說其實這是舊的資料在網路上可以撈得到的資料所以我們對這些成員是完全沒有明確的身份保護機制嗎"},{"start":3871.441,"end":3891.132,"text":"包委員 這個部分就是陳副委員所說的就是有適用對象 就是在勤工法適用對象那另外一個就是既有的這些做法 針對身份的這些保護的這些機制和措施都有規範那所以會保障這些人員相關的權益和安全權益跟安全 那身份我們沒有做到保護嗎"},{"start":3892.213,"end":3913.499,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們現在就是要採取相關的一些保護措施所以會強化社會隱匿跟掩護的相關的措施所以之前是沒有的 之前在網路上就可以撈到他們的資料所以現在我們才開始要研議 比如說建立這個化民化的制度啦或者是他們的生活安全維護 現在才要開始的意思嗎 部長"},{"start":3914.404,"end":3938.829,"text":"我們應該在這個月就會來實行這個月才要實行所以之前其實雖然說資通電軍已經是納入這個國家情報工作法裡面適用的這個對象可是一直以來我們都沒有在做這方面的保護措施現在才要做我想我們繼續就是說"},{"start":3940.856,"end":3962.094,"text":"一些相關在網路資料上面的一些他會收羅那我們也了解這個友情工法的一個適用所以我們現在已經採取了相關的這些做法我們一定會來強化身份隱匿跟掩護的相關措施就是做一個補救的措施就對了所以之前完全沒有做為什麼呢"},{"start":3964.336,"end":3971.485,"text":"為什麼我們都已經納入勤工法這麼多年為什麼之前都沒有再做現在問題發生了才來做呢"},{"start":3976.721,"end":3992.608,"text":"那這個部分是他在個人臉書的一些資訊那這個部分都已經在從去年的時候都已經都移除了所以就剛跟我們報告這是舊的資料"},{"start":3995.709,"end":4022.058,"text":"OK好那當然剛剛有提到就是說我們有些成員目前還是在我們志通電軍的指揮部裡面那像這些成員的話我們對他們目前當然他一定會覺得這個安全受到這個疑慮嘛那我們如何去做保護呢因為畢竟他們有些人都還是在在這個我們指揮部裡面目前的保護措施目前能做到怎樣的保護措施"},{"start":4023.503,"end":4050.071,"text":"我想剛剛已經提過了因為他現在相關的這些資料的揭露其實是過去的那個網站上面的一個資料所以現在網站上可是畢竟他還是掌握了部分的成員啊對不對有些已經退了剛剛說有些已經退可是有些都還在我們指揮部裡面還沒退啊還沒退的這些成員呢我們現階段如何保護出國我們有沒有保護到他的人身的安全他的家屬有沒有這個安全的疑慮這部分呢"},{"start":4051.72,"end":4064.132,"text":"我們現在應該會採取一些別名的措施,還有內部管控這些相關的作為,以勤工法的相關規定來進行加以保護。"},{"start":4065.762,"end":4088.213,"text":"這個部分我想應該還是要努力來做這個補救當然他現在發布這些資訊我想應該都是發動資訊戰跟心理戰的一部分那像習近平在這個中共二十大報告裡面他有提出研究掌握信息化智能化戰爭特點規律講的其實就是戰爭的形態其實已經加速向這個資訊化跟智能化來做這個轉變"},{"start":4089.714,"end":4116.869,"text":"那像之前國安局他都已經有提到了共軍他是針對台灣的基礎設施網路進行滲透那意圖呢當然需要奪取這個控制權那隨著這個AI的技術的這個運用越來越成熟當然我想未來中共用這個AI工具生成跟散發這個假資訊是會越來越嚴重那國安局之前也有示警說台灣政府在2024年每一天我們遭受到這個駭客的這工具是高達兩百四十餘萬次"},{"start":4118.69,"end":4136.979,"text":"幾乎都是中共的晚軍所為我們賴清德總統之前有宣示要提升台灣的軍費達GDP的3%以上所以我想請問一下我們國防部針對我們的資訊安全這部分我們會不會投入更多的資源來做升級目前我們有怎麼樣的一個規劃"},{"start":4138.6,"end":4153.825,"text":"我想我們一直不斷的在強化我們的這個資訊安全的環境那現在包括這一次有提出的那個特別條例裡面那麼我記得應該相關有關涉及資訊的部分應該有600多億總共700億,總共700億左右700億?對"},{"start":4163.948,"end":4188.536,"text":"有關於這個特別條例裡面其實有我們有700億的這個預算準備出來做這個提升這個資訊有關資訊的安全,是這個部分嗎?因為它涉及到一些這個自動作業環境的韌性設備效能的提升,還有指管系統的韌性跟治安的防護的擴充那當然還有一些共同圖像的一個潛能力"},{"start":4189.136,"end":4207.516,"text":"然後作戰區的一些同時線基礎設備的提升,然後還有網傳作業的各項設備的一個補充我想這個案子對於我們治安的韌性的提升是有相當大的幫助,還請各位能夠支持放在我們這一次"},{"start":4209.957,"end":4232.682,"text":"這個韌性的一個國土安全韌性對是OK 好 謝謝部長因為我想這個資訊作戰呢就是我們國土防衛的這個第一線我想國防部呢對這個部分應該要提出更多具體的這個做法我想資訊安全不應該是要成為這個不應該成為這個防線最脆弱的這個破口我想這部分應該大家要來做一個努力OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝薛薇"},{"start":4236.754,"end":4241.197,"text":"謝謝羅委員 部長請回接下來有請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 有請顧部長有請部長"},{"start":4259.568,"end":4288.187,"text":"部長早部長有關我們這個海空戰力提升計畫採購的特別預算從111年到115年我們總共在這五年間編列了2369億左右的預算那要依註在可快速量產的各式武器裝備也可以落實我們這個國防自主的政策而在這個特別預算的依註之下我們中科院產人和專業人員"},{"start":4290.288,"end":4315.134,"text":"這個部分都已經在擴充當中那也在建構完整的一個國防產業的一個供應鏈但是這個特別預算到明年他就會退場那如果後續沒有其他的案子銜接上來我們好不容易這個擴展的這個量能恐怕又會消散那在此我想請教部長就是國防部後續不論透過公務預算或是特別預算在"},{"start":4316.134,"end":4336.757,"text":"委治案的規劃上有沒有相應比例的一個編列,來延續這些產能和人力?有的,那因為現在我們有會納入我們的一個特別預算案裡面,那當然也有我想這個部分是不是由站櫃司來做一個說明好了"},{"start":4337.226,"end":4345.317,"text":"委員好,我是三貴市市長,向委員報告,海空戰力提升裡面我們所採購的精準彈藥,後續年度我們都會編列訊號,相關的需求,"},{"start":4348.342,"end":4373.772,"text":"那針對中科院未來發展更符合我們國軍防衛作戰的這些品項那我們也會依據敵情威脅的狀況來編列未來可能請中科院繼續去產製的這些項目所以中科院擴產的這些能量跟人才未來還是會持續的運用它是不會受到這個影響會持續延續下去對不會因為我們特別預算結束就沒了不會"},{"start":4376.096,"end":4393.912,"text":"我想再請教部長下禮拜在伊蘭蘇澳的海域我們將舉行無人艇的公開展示活動除了要延續發展國造無人載具的政策也包括中科院去年啟動快騎專案"},{"start":4395.854,"end":4422.604,"text":"的這個科研部分那部長先前也提到兩棲的這個徵收大隊將率先增編無人艇的這個專責部隊接下來我們國軍針對這個無人艇的運用我們這個需求是否都有按照我們原先的這個規劃提出相關的數量那採購案會編列在明年度的這個供應預算中嗎"},{"start":4425.802,"end":4438.513,"text":"我們希望無人品的部分如果能夠盡快通過測評的話,我們會想辦法編列在特別預算案裡面下半年度下半年度,那就可以執行了"},{"start":4439.717,"end":4454.433,"text":"我們期望能夠編入這個特別預算案我相信這個吳征廷對於我們守護的這個海域非常重要那我這部分要請國防部海軍這邊還是相關單位應該這個優先來重視那我們"},{"start":4459.451,"end":4480.988,"text":"最近也看到國安部為了讓這個後備組織跟幕僚機制能夠事權統一並且要建構後備動員合一的這個機制在今年的2月1號將編配的這個部分從陸軍兩年多的這個後備指揮部再回到這個權動署的管轄"},{"start":4483.05,"end":4506.784,"text":"最近有傳聞說我們國防部規劃後備旅明年將再編回陸軍以達到地面部隊事權統一的一個指揮那我想請教部長目前後備體制的這個評估是否有在這個移編後備旅的一個規劃那那個後備旅編載這個全動署和編載這個陸軍對於國軍的整體戰力會有什麼樣的影響和差別"},{"start":4513.477,"end":4540.85,"text":"跟委員報告幾點,第一點就是說國防部依照黨章編訓的原則跟強化全民國防兵力結構調整的方案,我們現在正在進行規劃規劃整個的這個兵力結構調整方案,其實這個相關的兵力結構調整方案的弧度不會只限於剛剛委員所提到的後備的部分,是整體的海控路等等還有其他包括"},{"start":4542.491,"end":4559.199,"text":"這些相關的,包括自動電軍也好,還有甚至這個後備部隊也好那所以相關的這個部分,因為還在規劃當中,我想涉及機密,我們就不立意公開不過可能第二點跟委員說明就是說這個權重署下轄的這個後備指揮部的這個部分,我們認為"},{"start":4569.966,"end":4577.32,"text":"後備組織跟這個權動署的這個部分要來予以整合因為他整合要"},{"start":4578.536,"end":4604.097,"text":"要來負責整個國防軍事動員的這個政策然後還有各跨部會的協調整合所以後備指揮部隸屬於權動署之後我們認為他們要全新,權動署加後備指揮部要全新貫徹這個全民防衛動員的事項然後有關於動員召集還有留守業務等等的這個都在我們現在正在整體規劃的範圍之內"},{"start":4606.059,"end":4634.727,"text":"那另外我們2023年開始實施這個女性後備軍人的這個志願教召那國防部年初有公布114年相關的這個作業規定來看將會由480人增加到590人那截至目前來看今年志願參加的這個情形是否踴躍那近三年擴大辦理女性官兵投入召集的這個訓練對於我們後備戰力的提升有何成效"},{"start":4636.008,"end":4654.05,"text":"我想我並不感到滿意有關那個志願的女性志願教召的部分那我們現在著重的政策的重點是在將志願役的官士兵全部納入後備教召的邊關那這個要進行修法我們希望根本之道是在這個地方也就是說"},{"start":4655.21,"end":4671.622,"text":"國家栽培這些自願意的女性的官兵我們還是希望納入後備教召屬於納入動員的一環這樣子因為他們都表現得也都非常的好部長您在去年上任之後兩個禮拜有推動一個叫"},{"start":4673.163,"end":4699.979,"text":"這個國軍人員出國業務作業規定的這個修正那要新增自助旅遊的相關規定鬆綁長久以來這個軍人出國自由行的限制當初我們初估有多達18萬人會受惠獲得了這個廣泛的好評那實施已經滿一周年那在這一年我們這個官兵申請出國自助旅遊的這個人次相較救治團體旅遊來看"},{"start":4701.9,"end":4716.808,"text":"有沒有顯著的增加另外部長認為在官兵出國自由行的這個作業上是否還有能夠改進的一個地方並且能夠兼顧安全也讓國軍在安排休假時能夠更加的便利"},{"start":4718.729,"end":4742.72,"text":"那天參加交通部的那個有關官民優先登記之後,後來有請人士做個統計看起來應該是說我們去年6月5號開放以後,這個自助旅遊的人數已經達到2萬多人然後2萬7千多,團體旅遊大概1萬6千多所以就要去年同期增加到1萬6千多人,所以這個"},{"start":4744.881,"end":4748.007,"text":"部分看起來應該是有相當人數的增加"},{"start":4749.912,"end":4774.526,"text":"好那我們也就剛剛陳儒這個部長您說的跟交通部也有提出一個六家國籍航空的部分軍人優先登機的禮遇那這項政策具有相當正面的意涵不但可以提升這個官兵休假的便利也是對於我們國軍的支持和尊重那出國的時候因為我們目前"},{"start":4776.199,"end":4804.071,"text":"這個要求可能是要佩戴這個軍人身份證那軍人身份證如果離隱之後代出可能會有相對的風險那我們在這個軍人身份證方面有沒有其他的變通的一個證明文件可以提供給我們這個休假的這個我們目前還是以軍人身份證的查驗為主因為到了這個因為他是到那個登機的那一刻所以我們還是以軍人身份證為主那我們現在已經配合"},{"start":4804.764,"end":4830.14,"text":"修正的那個身份證管理要點跟那個出口作業出口業務作業規定就刪除了不可以攜帶身份證的這個相關的規定是因為我跟委員報告就是說以前說出國不可以帶身份證那說怕遺失或如何那事實上你在國內也可能會遺失所以我認為這樣的一個政策上面"},{"start":4831.86,"end":4850.768,"text":"來最主要當然是說這樣的措施來形塑軍人的榮譽感那麼我想身份證這個部分上面沒有任何機敏的資料然後攜帶我想應該是還好好因為這也是擔心啦擔心他身份證那個軍人身份證如果錯過如果他會掉的話那他再"},{"start":4851.949,"end":4866.863,"text":"這個任何地方都會掉所以我覺得會不會掉我們當然會希望他們妥善保管但是任何的身份證件資料他只要有拿著他當然在任何地方都會掉另外部長我們這個"},{"start":4869.545,"end":4885.968,"text":"公布的這個禮遇措施沒有包含這個軍人眷屬那這個部分是不是我們也可以研擬看看對於這個出國旅遊的這個軍事官他的眷屬未來隨行的話是不是也可以納入相關的這個優惠的一個"},{"start":4888.19,"end":4901.879,"text":"我想這個部分還該再跟交通部再商議一下因為我們比較其他國家像美國的話他大概是說有一名的眷屬可以帶一名"},{"start":4904.321,"end":4932.791,"text":"所以我想我們再跟這個交通部再來協商看看那有關這個軍人眷屬的部分要如何來實施好那這部分就請部長跟我們相關同仁可以盡速的會同這個相關部會讓相關優惠的措施更加的完備達到我們禮遇國軍的一個目標也期待接下來我們推出更多有感的進軍政策給予我們國軍最大的支持"},{"start":4933.191,"end":4951.204,"text":"好 謝謝部長是 謝謝委員支持好 謝謝軍委員 部長請回接下來我們有請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請部長有請部長"},{"start":4959.315,"end":4962.839,"text":"部長好 部長我們今天針對有一些凍結的案子要解凍不過我們有幾個案子提出來跟部長探討一下因為今天海軍有特別就性騷擾申訴案件處置還有他精進作為來做一個報告"},{"start":4979.696,"end":4986.22,"text":"可是我想這個也答應要今天解凍不過昨天國防部卻傳出性騷擾的案件國防部監管國防性品業務的資源司人力資源處長遭投訴多次在公開的場合用歧視性的或者甚至性字眼辱罵女性下屬"},{"start":5000.687,"end":5003.849,"text":"這個也造成很多人的深情不適部長這個國軍性騷擾事件成績越來越高因為過去我們看到所有發生的這些性平事件那去年媒體也有披露"},{"start":5016.075,"end":5019.498,"text":"就監察院在111年的機敏調查報告裡面他特別提到他認為國軍性騷擾存在的比較大的問題是因為他的權力不對等還有他的黑數還有他的申訴機制以及保護措施不被信任宣導以及督導偏重刑事營區環境不安全等等的問題那就這些問題我們現在發現"},{"start":5042.118,"end":5063.053,"text":"雖然今天海軍做了一個精進處置作為可是國防部監管國防性品業務的主官自己就是性品事件的加害者那如果說今天要處理這樣子的一個解凍案子部長你覺得適合嗎我們那個成立的委員會都有外部委員"},{"start":5064.572,"end":5068.514,"text":"對 外部委員 我們是按照相關的規定來成立這個部長我們知道我們知道我們都有成立相關的這些外部委員也好或者相關的機制可是我們剛剛提到就是說為什麼在國防部國軍裡面他會有比較讓大家覺得比較擔心的問題就是剛剛提到的那些其實這些根本的因素如果不解決其實像我們剛剛提到的他的成績越來越高甚至"},{"start":5092.984,"end":5117.198,"text":"你自己本身都已經是這個性平的事件的一個主要的主觀可是他成為加害者的時候那他怎麼有辦法公平這是我們現在要特別提醒國防部的今天雖然這個案子解凍可是他持續在發生當中而且才昨天部長也震怒所以我相信其實你認為這個事情還是可以應該要有更精進的一個做法"},{"start":5121.661,"end":5149.671,"text":"不是只有這些委員而已是,我想剛剛海軍也提出相關軍事重點這個應該不是只有海軍,應該是三軍都要來做現在就是說我們也立即採取一個隔離跟保護的措施也就是將被申訴人就立即調離的縣職然後到陸軍當任這個委員那也對這個受害人加以保護那我們同時成立了一個具有部外委員的一個"},{"start":5150.679,"end":5154.804,"text":"客觀公正的一個委員會來進行調查部長我知道我說這個可能是形式上的啦因為剛剛提到就是說他的因為如果說我們沒有去做根本的改變他很難不再發生這個才是我們要去提醒國防部的主要的重點這個不"},{"start":5169.679,"end":5182.066,"text":"這個請部長再去做一個更全面性的或者像黑素今天如果不是多名女性一起那這個一定不是昨天才發生或前天才發生嘛它應該是已經很長的一段時間那為什麼到後來大家才敢很多人的時候才敢表示出來這一個問題在哪裡請部長再去就這個根本的原因去做更好更深入的一個改善好不好是那另外"},{"start":5197.754,"end":5200.176,"text":"一個案子就用剛剛我們聽到在報告的時候也聽到有一些委員有特別都提到說我們對於訓場這個預算的一個凍結可是我們發現在"},{"start":5215.073,"end":5228.98,"text":"桃園高鐵營造廠一口氣把承攬石案工程停工他資金缺口大概20億引發市場的這個嘩然這個也是老字號的一個營造廠那這家營造廠他停工的項目裡面有兩項是關於國軍的工程部長您知道嗎"},{"start":5235.388,"end":5240.712,"text":"我想這是不是先請陸軍來做一個沒有關係 是不是有這樣的事情有有時間的關係嗎我們在凍結長安訓場的這個預算的時候我們也希望有一些是新的委員可是也有舊的委員不要隨便扣帽子剛開始我們去凍結這一筆預算的時候是因為長安營區它是學校"},{"start":5260.808,"end":5263.069,"text":"它是戰車基礎訓練尤其是我們M1A2T的一個基本駕駛訓練的一個場域對不對它本來應該在112年就應該要完成可是已經拖到114年如果再加上今天這個廠商又有"},{"start":5280.454,"end":5288.201,"text":"財務缺口的時候我想又要演了到明年可能都還來不及本來已經要演明年了嘛這是我們凍結的原因而且它比較離譜的是它全案的工作項目本來主要是戰車射擊靶場還有戰車的駕駛訓練場是這兩個主要項目總共四億五千萬可是我們在"},{"start":5303.155,"end":5306.617,"text":"整個執行的過程當中卻把這個重要的部分把它拿掉很多拿去做變更還有做水土保持工程而讓我們這個訓練的這個項目其實它沒有辦法完成而且要放在第二階段就另外在這邊預算在做這是我們凍結的原因請清楚的告訴我們所有的國人而不要用那種煽動性的或者誤導性的這是我們凍結的原因那今天長安營區要拿出來解凍"},{"start":5333.275,"end":5336.399,"text":"結果昨天發生這樣的問題它是不是會造成我們後續的整個執行的影響會不會包委員容我向您報告第一個我們今天已經召集了這個同胞商來做一個研討那"},{"start":5348.012,"end":5372.178,"text":"它後續是否有繼續承攬的能力那另外一個它有共同的承攬廠商也有分別有四家跟一家那我們也在持續的掌握承攬廠商它是否有接續這個營造能力我們都在持續的掌握當中那如果真的它無法遂行的話沒關係細節你們自己去做處置像這樣子這樣今天可以解凍嗎"},{"start":5373.653,"end":5391.674,"text":"包委員因為他目前這個你連所有的協商都還在進度超前進度超前這個好意思在這裡講嗎你本來112年要完成你把它延到115年而且把所有重要工項拿掉你可以說他進度超前"},{"start":5392.014,"end":5398.981,"text":"我做個比喻如果說如果說今天我們真的跟他解約的話我們要去跟他做你要怎麼做沒關係以我們國軍的利益為考量這個這個要怎麼樣的處置作為你們自己去判斷我現在講的是當我們在凍結預算的時候一定有他的原因和理由今天我們剛要解凍的時候他又發生另外一個"},{"start":5413.554,"end":5423.046,"text":"其他的因素而且會造成我們MYA2你們說這個是非常重要的這個要做我們基礎訓練駕駛訓練他如果沒有地方訓練他以後開出去我們動不動就撞到民車或撞到民人那會造成什麼樣的影響這是我們凍結的原因所以請"},{"start":5432.157,"end":5450.613,"text":"務實的去解決我們凍結的一個根本的一個問題所在而不是拿來作為一些政治工坊或者像一些在尤其現在大家動不動就大罷免把我們凍山預算全部都拿來說嘴"},{"start":5452.014,"end":5461.62,"text":"我們每一筆動三我們一定都有原因你現在我剛剛隨便舉兩個理由你們全部都沒有繼續做好而且才剛剛解凍又有新的事情發生這樣可以讓大家相信嗎這是我們今天要特別提出來的那今天借用一點時間要請部長可以去深刻的再去考量就是我們軍人家心的部分那這兩天其實引起非常大的就是討論"},{"start":5481.975,"end":5482.082,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":5482.628,"end":5507.352,"text":"今天行政院的立場不管他是怎麼樣可是我們在這裡請部長你一定要站在國軍弟兄的立場去想因為昨天聽說所有的只要可以接觸到訊息可以看到電視螢幕或者可以看到其他的訊息來源的時候大家都在關注尤其我們國軍官兵其實全部都在關注這個案子會不會過當過了以後其實有非常多的歡呼聲"},{"start":5512.293,"end":5515.634,"text":"今天為什麼我們覺得他們是值得的是因為我們現在讓他們不管在演訓各方面其實他們的強度都越來越高今天如果我們在GDP已經要提升到3或3%以上動輒都有幾千億的一個增加我們買太多的武器裝備如果沒有精良的這些人力其實是沒有用的"},{"start":5536.383,"end":5539.546,"text":"如果看到他們聽這個訊息這個法一通過的時候大家那種歡呼其實這就是戰力的提升因為只有讓他們覺得我是值得的他們才會願意犧牲或者保家衛國才不是口號所以這個部分我們請部長您的看法"},{"start":5555.802,"end":5559.944,"text":"不要去配合行政院因為聽說國防部昨天也發聲明要配合復議或者要釋憲這個部長您的看法怎麼樣是不是可以讓大家知道我想我剛剛在會前接受記者訪問的時候已經說明了國進當然辛苦應該適度增加這個待遇但事實上我們在今年四月已經提升了志願役跟這個"},{"start":5582.434,"end":5603.269,"text":"戰鬥部隊的加急,網路戰加急也在6月1號提出,我們事實上要很多很多種的加急所以整個國軍練部加急的這個橫頻性我們必須是要考量的部長,我提醒一點另外一點當然就是還是要說明一下,就是說立法所提的立法案如果大幅增加稅出的話還是要懇請立法院能夠徵詢,請這個意見"},{"start":5605.31,"end":5615.134,"text":"好 那我提供兩個看法第一個就是說我們4月1號通過的這些加急其實它的加急是部分而且會造成有些偏頗就是你的關節越高有些你是領越少那有點像懲罰性的因為你到連急可是引急會受它的影響是比較大"},{"start":5624.918,"end":5643.979,"text":"那另外一個就是像他預算大幅支出預算大幅支出不是在軍人加薪的部分因為他大概增加是200或300億這個可能還要再去細算可是我們在國防支出的增加是高達三五千億這個對"},{"start":5646.241,"end":5667.727,"text":"整個預算來說它增加的幅度不是最大的可是它對我們戰力的提升卻有非常大的幫助這一點我們請部長可以因為您是國軍的大家長今天您的所作所為一定對他們會造成深刻的影響如果我們去把他們的福利拿掉或者跟他們站在不一樣的對立面的時候"},{"start":5668.507,"end":5674.39,"text":"其實它可能也會影響大大的影響他們的決心跟戰力這一點我想兩三百億對於我們整個戰力提升來說它可能是更重要的而且我們現在面臨最大的問題是即使我們有裝備都沒有人我們寧可"},{"start":5685.334,"end":5691.257,"text":"讓我們自己的國軍可以接受可以有更好的福利我聽到他們說那些歡呼聲我相信部長如果聽到的時候你也會感動那我們就這個部分是不是部長在就您現在目前的在這個位置上面可以再去跟高層或者相關的部會再去做一些考量跟討論好不好"},{"start":5710.848,"end":5729.654,"text":"我想國防部立場當然就是說能夠照顧到官兵的待遇福利這當然都是樂見的但是我想我們還是要考慮到整個國家整體施政的很平性跟國家整體財政的餘度這樣好部長我還是要再提一次當我們增加兩三五千億預算的時候我們對於這樣兩三百億我覺得這樣的比例並不為過再一次提醒部長謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":5740.161,"end":5766.175,"text":"謝謝馬委員 部長請回接下來我們有請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長有請部長是 林委員好"},{"start":5767.425,"end":5771.666,"text":"部長辛苦了因為本來其實現在應該都已經是進入休會期那麼你們可以回去好好的來針對我們的國防或者是其他相關的軍事演練來做這個處理但是今天還是為了預算解凍必須把我們所有的這些包括從部長以下我們所有的參謀指揮官通通找來這裡剛剛我們看到國民黨的委員"},{"start":5789.77,"end":5801.218,"text":"一方面面對這個我們要解凍預算尤其是非常重要的相關的這些所謂軍事設施等等的這個預算的解凍我們今天在這裡剛剛昭偉也講了那麼國民黨的委員呢自己在質詢當中也不斷的強調"},{"start":5808.103,"end":5819.765,"text":"這個不要扣帽子然後這個預算的動刪都有一定的原因甚至於擔心因為大罷免大成功所以趕快要來做解釋一方面呢他們在煽動預算而且剛剛不斷的強調是說好現在這個預算因為相關的基地又出了問題所以不動行嗎不動難道說還要繼續這樣下去嗎但是部長"},{"start":5833.308,"end":5838.232,"text":"我請問一下有關於我們相關的軍事設施的這個預算我再來整理一下2025年藍白大砍的國防預算84億軍事的設備設施51億那設備跟投資13億國外的差旅教育費2億然後政策宣導是比較少一點0.3億因為本來國防部也就這部分的預算是比較少的然後一般事務水電啊這個我們國軍需要的水電費"},{"start":5859.566,"end":5870.454,"text":"也動刪了16.7億現在剛剛如果前面就國民黨的委員所講的話好像不動不刪就不行監督了部長真的是這樣嗎我們特別針對這個尤其凍結的這個預算高達快900億899億多就這個我來這邊已經第三次了"},{"start":5883.442,"end":5902.123,"text":"到現在還沒有完全能夠解凍完還有113年度的解凍案也還6個案也還沒有能夠解凍所以我想這個不管是3特別剛剛我們之前有提到國外旅會他又說不准留用"},{"start":5902.683,"end":5911.197,"text":"那事實上我們跟有盟國家的軍事交流應該會有相當大的一個影響那凍結的部分高達了快900億的這個部分到現在為止"},{"start":5917.066,"end":5937.904,"text":"剛剛當然馬委員舉了一兩個例子,但事實上高達900億的凍結預算我認為在國際間傳達的一個,就如同美國國會所講的其實是一個非常不利於我們願意爭搶自我防衛能力決心的一種"},{"start":5940.486,"end":5966.993,"text":"一種訊息的傳遞就是會傳達一種錯誤的訊息就是說我們到底對於強化我們的自我防衛的能力然後來透過國防預算的一個甄列然後來展示我們成為區域嚇阻裡面的一個最重要最重要的一環這件事情其實是在我看起來反而是非常"},{"start":5968.714,"end":5989.025,"text":"要值得大家麻煩各位不管是在朝或在野委員都要去深思的問題好所以本席特別為什麼把這個例子舉出來是因為國民黨的委員從昨天他說要給軍人加薪一手加薪但是一手動山預算我坦白講部長在這兒我們現在所有的這些我們的高階將領都在這裡這些動山的預算絕對不是只有部長一個人用或是在場的這些我們的這些高階的將領用"},{"start":5998.33,"end":6010.793,"text":"應該是所有的弟兄都會用到是吧那麼一方面我來看他們一山動山欲算但另外一方面呢他說他要加薪但是從2008年到2024年我特別做了一個比較表2008到2016馬英九執政是國民黨的馬英九執政的時候我們的薪資成長只有15%"},{"start":6021.957,"end":6048.771,"text":"16然後我們到了2016到2024年就是我們民長蔡英文總統執政的時候成長了26.76%我相信這個部分充分展現了我們對於國軍包括我們弟兄們的一個薪資上面的照顧包括我們昨天也特別提到了如果說今天一手是砍玉算動山運山讓國軍動潭不得甚至於就像部長您剛剛所講的就是我們"},{"start":6050.332,"end":6058.798,"text":"對外展現的是好像我們沒有想要好好的來對於國家的防衛的這個對外國際信息是錯誤的傳達的時候部長現在擺明了就是立法院通過了這300億那麼他會不會因為要強制加薪而排擠到接下來我們在軍頭或作業費上面的維繫跟維持我講一個更殘忍的是給他加薪但是不給他好的設備不給他好的配備"},{"start":6079.872,"end":6081.794,"text":"維護作用上面都受到影響的時候請問這個是真愛國軍嗎還是只是拿國軍當擋箭牌只是就像剛剛前面的委員講的提到擔心被罷免"},{"start":6095.636,"end":6115.818,"text":"我想我的看法跟委員報告,因為我們現在就任性的部分已經提出一個特別條例那我們會在下半年提出另外一個特別條例可是我們的年度預算有三分,就是一個人員維持會、作業維持會跟軍事投資就這個部分納入年度預算的時候呢"},{"start":6117.079,"end":6141.611,"text":"當你的人員維持會大幅的這個增加的時候你的年度預算的部分勢必會排除排除擠壓或不應該說排除應該是擠壓到我們的作業維持會跟我們的軍事投資作業維持會你不要看它不重要作業維持是我們唯心戰力的一個非常重要假設我們作業維持會因此被排擠而不夠的話那這個我們"},{"start":6145.695,"end":6171.592,"text":"我們這個沒有辦法妥善率能夠維持在一個程度的話那事實上這個對我們的戰力是非常產生大的影響那我們還有沒有納入特別條例的一些持續性的一些預算案那這個如果我們因此而產生被排擠的話我們軍事的投資這個更會彰顯出我們對於自我防衛能力的決心的不足所以我覺得"},{"start":6173.253,"end":6200.686,"text":"我在這邊只是說懇請就是說委員在做這樣的事情的時候我們能夠跟行政部因為我們花了很多的時間就4月1號的志願役條這個加級然後戰隊部隊的加級那加加網路戰電偵戰航管的加級等等都經過內部很審慎的討論那如果委員在立法的同時能夠跟行政部門好好做一個溝通協調來審慎的研議相關的這個整體施政的橫平性我會"},{"start":6201.866,"end":6221.27,"text":"站在公安部裡講我會比較感激這樣子的一個做法好 其實本席也是認為不論是在薪資上面給予我們辛苦第一線的國軍給予一定的所謂的加級或者是加薪都是有其必要性但是除了加薪之外因為他們第一線是需要這些裝備來協助他們捍衛國家"},{"start":6223.891,"end":6241.572,"text":"那我也希望呈現出來的是不要一手給加薪一手在黨預算凍結預算我們今天要處理的所有凍結的預算要解凍都是國民黨的委員所提出來的所以我也希望在這個質詢台上要把事情講清楚不是扣帽子而是事實就是如此"},{"start":6241.932,"end":6245.574,"text":"另外我來看下一張剛剛其實有委員問到了這個有關於就是讓我們的國軍可以優先登基的部分其實本席第一時間就非常的肯定那麼但是剛剛也有特別提到的就是有關於眷屬的部分"},{"start":6257.921,"end":6269.872,"text":"因為我們都知道國軍如果今天是因為公務外出那麼我相信在部裡面都會做一個很好的安排很妥適的安排但是有些時候這些狀況是難得可以收假的國軍弟兄們他們可能要跟家人出國"},{"start":6277.319,"end":6301.25,"text":"所以這個部分是不是有考量進去除了公務之外公務之餘這個部分的休息是不是也有納入那這個部分也許是在這個辦法推出的時候沒有在細部思考的我不知道部長是不是也有思考到這個部分就是我相信如果是公務公務優先但是我認為他們難得可以休假如果帶著家屬"},{"start":6302.11,"end":6318.247,"text":"那麼有沒有機會優先或者是有沒有什麼樣的思考這個部分部長您這邊跟交通部部分有沒有進行更細部的的了解我想第一點就是說我上任之後就開放自助旅行嘛是旅遊那自由行"},{"start":6320.61,"end":6335.392,"text":"自由行 剛剛人事給我的資料就顯示人數是增加的所以我們這一次的優先搭機當然就是不會限於公務就是當然包括你要參加團體旅遊也好 或者參加自助旅遊"},{"start":6335.732,"end":6362.999,"text":"自由行也好都是可以使用那軍人身份證的部分我們也研究過了沒有涉及相關的機敏的部分那眷屬的部分的話我們在第一波沒有納入那不過我想交通部也表示相當大的一個善意說願意來跟我們進行研討那應該是說我們會想辦法納入第二階段好 所以第二階段有機會把一起出國的眷屬也納入"},{"start":6364.68,"end":6385.315,"text":"對,不過這個還有一些細部討論,就是說眷屬,我的瞭解是有軍人眷屬的身份證,有包括父母子女跟配偶,那究竟是如何?那因為美國的話,他就是說一名軍人,然後可以有一名眷屬,那這個細節的部分我們再跟交通部商量一下。"},{"start":6385.555,"end":6408.093,"text":"好,我認為其實不只是薪資啦,其他的福裕、待遇跟像這種在交通上面或者是其他我們在日常生活中給予我們國軍弟兄一定的優先或者是一定的待遇的優惠我想這個也都是另外一種我們展現我們軍外民營進軍的一個方式我覺得我這邊要特別提出來就是說"},{"start":6409.174,"end":6431.261,"text":"這樣的一個措施 我說明就是說看似是一個平凡 但是它事實上彰顯了要提升軍人的榮譽感軍人榮譽感的提升 在我看起來 我們從政策上來看如何能夠提升軍人榮譽感是一件非常重要的事情本席也非常肯定 謝謝部長謝謝林楚瑩委員 部長請回"},{"start":6437.591,"end":6441.113,"text":"接下來我們請沈伯陽召委上台質詢謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝有請顧部長"},{"start":6470.171,"end":6496.85,"text":"部長好剛剛前面其實又一直提到因為昨天這個軍人待遇條例的這個通過剛剛這個處應委員其實有提到就是到底會不會影響到其他的這個作業維持但是我還是要再講一次就是說這個其實在4月1號之前我還記得我們在這邊有做這個協商那我那時候記得部長有特別提到就是說如果要入法的話因為他放的是戰鬥部隊加級"},{"start":6498.351,"end":6516.877,"text":"但我們其實還有戰航管 我們有網路戰 有什麼任何其他的我們有十幾種的對 有十幾種嘛 就是十一種的那單單的把一個放在這個法律上其實是顯得非常的詭異啦那裡面呢 我記得也有提到 就是超時加急這一個部分因為超時本身它不是加急的這個定義"},{"start":6517.837,"end":6543.459,"text":"所以其實在這個協商我們都有把這個意見提出國防部也有提出這個意見不過顯然看起來好像這個協商好像沒有任何的意義啦所以呢就這樣結束了然後表決然後就過了然後呢剛剛馬文君這個委員提到說這個國軍歡呼啦什麼等等之類的我是覺得啦就是說其實我們做這種違憲完全不符合憲政體制的這種方式呢其實並不合時宜但其實我們當然是支持"},{"start":6544.299,"end":6561.193,"text":"軍人這個加級或者待遇的一個提升然後讓這個不僅是士氣的提升跟待遇的提升那剛剛這個部長有提到4月1號的時候我們已經有做過第一次嘛戰鬥部隊嘛6月1號志願役加級跟戰鬥部隊加級志願役跟戰鬥部隊然後6月1號有增加了網路戰加級"},{"start":6562.154,"end":6583.164,"text":"所以這是一系列的這個措施那這個一定是有去橫著整個財務的規劃不要去做到任何的擠壓然後在能力範圍之內所做的事情所以我還是覺得我們立法院就是這一年以來用這種迴線亂政的方式真的我也必須要講假設今天立法委員直接通過一個法律說電價全部歸零我相信全國人民也會歡呼啦"},{"start":6583.684,"end":6599.744,"text":"但問題是他就不符合我們現在憲政體制的這一個這個設計所以還是要講一下但是問題是這個我看今天開始大概很大一部分就是會做這樣的一個政治攻擊所以我也是希望國防部能夠多多跟軍人說明就是說"},{"start":6600.465,"end":6629.72,"text":"今天我們並不是說支持或不支持軍人的這個加擠的這個方案我們是針對這個憲政體制針對這樣的一個立法方式有所懷疑那但是我們對於現在呢這個待遇的提升 士氣的提升我們當然大方向是贊成的但我還是認為立法院應該要做的事情是用決議的方式然後讓行政院 讓國防部去評估然後評估之後呢我們可以看到其實在過往我們都已經發生過好幾次的加刑嘛"},{"start":6630.1,"end":6650.228,"text":"那我們當然是建議要往哪一個方向前進我覺得這才是一個立法行政比較好的一個分際但我還有一個小問題因為這是剛剛前面馬文俊委員提到的讓我想還是我覺得應該把這個立場講一下那我今天有看到這個因為今天有這個跟性平相關的這個解凍案那這個性平相關的解凍案我認為就是說"},{"start":6653.084,"end":6665.413,"text":"當然這個既然都已經做了專案報告我覺得可以做一個稍微的檢視就是說在第一頁的時候裡面有提到說這個性別相關的這個教材叫做科版那第一個我認為雖然科版這個是有檢討但是它的解決方式我覺得好像"},{"start":6672.358,"end":6701.658,"text":"好像沒有寫在上面我的建議就是說一些跟實力相關的整合這件事情因為既然都說已經刻板了實力相關的整合我覺得應該要進去這是第一點第二點就是通常因為我以前當過性評委員所以性評機制蠻重要的一個就是叫做處理的流程圖跟窗口如果說今天即時處理的窗口還有流程圖是有讓每一位官兵都能夠知道他很清楚說這個處理的流程是什麼樣子"},{"start":6702.658,"end":6718.996,"text":"以及處理時間通常我們都已經很在意就是說因為如果說你處理時間都很長那就可能會造成什麼就算我知道這個流程圖就算有這個處理的窗口這個一年半載根本就沒有辦法處理這個會降低他們想要去通報的意願"},{"start":6720.237,"end":6736.964,"text":"那問題是處理時間的長短這個可能是要長期追蹤我們才知道那這個是我們定期每一年可以去看一下如果我們有這個處理的流程然後呢 加上我們處理的時間然後定期的也跟讓官兵知道那這樣對性平的這一個幫助我認為會比較大啦我就直接建議啦 這個"},{"start":6738.104,"end":6762.347,"text":"建議那再來就是性別友善這件事情其實蠻重要那女性的一個比例比如說我們今天在這個裡面有哪一些平等的工作小組啦什麼等等之類的我在猜可能有可能有比例啦只是在報告裡面沒有寫到但這個可能也稍微注意一下稍微建議一下那接下來我想問一下自通電不好意思 請自通電"},{"start":6765.029,"end":6794.307,"text":"這件事情其實已經發生一陣子了這個我記得之前這個時序2024年9月的時候就有一次這個台獨網軍匿名者六四起底這樣的一個文章那這個我好像在X上面我印象是這個樣子2025年說他鎖定4名然後呢2025年6月5號說又20名那剛剛自動電有提到說這個是舊的資料所以我覺得這不是一個最大的問題因為他們本來就喜歡用舊資料而且他跟護證機關我們護證資料也有外洩嘛所以做一些比對啊等等之類的"},{"start":6795.427,"end":6821.105,"text":"但是我現在想要知道的事情就是說因為我們今天一直提到軍人待遇的提升希望是他留營就是希望軍人待遇提升之後大家願意待在國軍那現在這件事情對資通電它是一個新戰資通電人數其實也多那在這樣的一個新戰的狀況之下一定也會影響到招募、留營等等的意願所以我這邊第一個就是剛剛美林委員有提到但我想再確認一次就是說我們在這個匿名的機制在這個資通電是說過往"},{"start":6825.347,"end":6850.286,"text":"沒有做 但是現在要開始 是這個意思嗎就是說我們跟委員報告 應該是說我們今年的三四月開始已經開始在研討這個議題那就我的了解就是說有關相關的這些具體的做法跟畫面作業的系統的建立我們就會在這一個月底以前完成 然後來實行這樣"},{"start":6851.587,"end":6876.808,"text":"好,我覺得這個很重要,因為軍情跟國安通常會做這些啦那這個我是覺得說,因為這個機制是正在建立當中嘛那正在建立當中的同時呢,自動電應該是現在應該要做一些比較純防守的業務因為如果說在這個期間呢,又有一些其他的情勢發生的話那因為這個機制還沒有完成嘛,那就很容易又會被做文章啦所以我還是覺得說,這一個方面可能還是要多注意一點"},{"start":6877.549,"end":6902.352,"text":"那另外一個就是這個因為剛剛有提到說其實有三分之二的人他已經他已經離開了嘛他已經不在自動電了但問題是他還是可能會有一定程度的風險他不只是可能會被制裁的風險或者被抓的風險甚至有可能是這個所謂的這個被統戰的風險所以我這邊有提到就是說呢當然因為我不知道他們因為剛剛並沒有提到他離開多久啊我覺得在這邊也不要講但如果說他已經是可以出國的話"},{"start":6903.413,"end":6931.474,"text":"可能要跟他講這個相關風險而且不是只有這20位因為他可能只是隨便挑20位然後去拼湊一些舊資料他鎖定的可能是比較多人那這些不管是尤其是已經退役的那剛剛我們也有提到甚至現已我們都有提到跟這個觀光有關的這個措施嘛這個有可能會造成他們人身上的安全又倒過來講可能變成反過來要統戰的對象這個風險有可能必須要告知這件事情所以拜託注意一下"},{"start":6937.393,"end":6951.399,"text":"我們現在就是參照國安局跟軍局相關的做法我們會來進行相關的這些退役人員管制的一些作為然後剛剛也提到了我們會有一些具體的一些做法"},{"start":6953.9,"end":6973.875,"text":"就是隱匿或者是掩護等等那即使是退役的話我想我們也會來進行所以這個部分我覺得我們有國安局跟這個軍情局可以來做一個參考因為離開國軍之後有時候反而是風險開始增高的時候因為對他們來講容易接觸是"},{"start":6978.157,"end":6991.522,"text":"這個趨勢科技因為最近當然也有做一些新的資安報告那這個我先不多問因為但是這個也跟現在跟自動電它不同的路徑怎麼去感染什麼等等之類的那這個在不管是我們做採購什麼等等之類的這可能要特別注意一下"},{"start":6992.762,"end":7009.269,"text":"接下來我還有一個比較小的問題是要問中科院跟資源司這個部分其實已經有在辦公室先討論過但是我覺得我們還是跟國人來做一個公開的說明就是說我們都知道現在有軍品認證軍品認證這邊有一個評鑑事項的評分的表格在這個做評分表格之後因為這個評分表格裡面有講到研發"},{"start":7017.873,"end":7030.808,"text":"那這個有些跟中科院合作的廠商他就有點害怕就是說因為他比較負責製造然後中科院做了研發他就怕說研發的分數沒有辦法算到他身上所以呢那因為中科院也會跟他講說反正你就去申請這個認證這個認證內容的標準就擺在那邊你就去申請就對了但是他們有時候會有點無所適從"},{"start":7037.876,"end":7059.336,"text":"那我們那時候問資源司的時候資源司說這個中科院某種程度可以做一些輔導但中科院的立場會說這個會不會有迴避的問題所以呢是不是這邊再跟國人說明一下就是說這種軍品認證它的流程那它應該怎麼做有沒有什麼輔導的機制讓他們說他們的評分機制在這邊然後有哪些是算分不算分該怎麼做是不是跟國人說明一下"},{"start":7060.081,"end":7082.107,"text":"級別認證的部分主要是資源師在做負責我想輔導的部分以及宣導的部分都是由資源師來做那從我上任以後我發現級別認證的這個廠家數不夠高所以我們現在應該要多鼓勵他們來進行那現在在相關的辦法裡面大概有分三類"},{"start":7082.927,"end":7101.091,"text":"所以他們也要就這個不同的這個三類的這種軍品的這個認證部分也要有一定的治安的一個認證的要求那另外我要求他們的流程要加快因為過去本來審議的時間會比較長一點那我們現在應該是要縮短這個級別認證的審議的時間所以我希望在軍品認證的這個部分能夠盡快的加速加多"},{"start":7112.233,"end":7126.218,"text":"那現在是中科院的合作廠商的部分呢反而就是說他不一定會來做級別的認證那就這個部分的這些合作的廠商的部分以後我想我們也應該要設法來輔導他們"},{"start":7128.649,"end":7146.055,"text":"那這個中科院的部分要補充一下嗎我們確實很積極的在輔導他們並沒有角色認證的問題那就拜託因為今天部長也講了那就請兩位單位幫忙來做一些輔導至少說讓他們覺得這個流程是順利就跟我們剛剛講性平機制一樣"},{"start":7147.515,"end":7161.333,"text":"有一個流程一個SOP是長什麼樣子這一定會有幫助那因為我時間已經到了那最後呢我剛剛忘記了就是說剛剛自動電的部分因為前陣子他們去年針對海巡的興戰比較多那現在針對自動電感覺也是一個興戰這個相信除了我們剛剛講要怎麼去針對"},{"start":7163.796,"end":7188.17,"text":"已經退出的要怎麼去保護他或者告知他以外對於現役的資通訊人員他一定會有一些心理上的壓力所以這個不管是輔導的機制什麼等等之類的拜託就是可以協助一下另外最重要的就是我剛剛寫在第一頁的就是就是因為這很明顯對方用拼湊的資料啦用什麼之類的直接做一個新戰的攻擊所以呢我知道今天有各個委員去詢問但是拜託就不要再要求各級要什麼檢討提報什麼之類的"},{"start":7189.691,"end":7206.205,"text":"這完全就是在增加業務我覺得沒有任何的意義他就是一個中國的攻擊師中國應該負責我們現在想現在第一個先扶貧情緒然後接下來就是我們該怎麼防範把防範這件事情做好我覺得就可以了好 謝謝謝謝文哲我們就在現在就在做這樣的事情謝謝部長謝謝謝謝沈伯陽召委部長請回"},{"start":7223.211,"end":7252.004,"text":"接下來我們請林益鈞委員上台質詢謝謝召委 有請國防部顧部長有請部長市委員委員好"},{"start":7252.861,"end":7258.384,"text":"部長好我想請教一下就是部長你們今年是不是有一筆從機密的預算轉成公開的預算就是今天會議送來的預算解凍案之一有一個F16V的型的戰機作戰資源夾娼妓武器彈藥籌過案"},{"start":7269.71,"end":7272.033,"text":"在114年的編列15億的預算中被凍結了3000萬那部長這個案子其實在今年的114年之前其實都是編列在機密的預算但是當然之前就是都沒有公開的審查"},{"start":7284.807,"end":7290.331,"text":"所以但是今年度已經改成公開預算了所以我想請教一下就是國防部裡面對計畫的內容是什麼究竟買了什麼還有買了多少作戰的需求是什麼還有要買多少的彈藥呢還是資源的夾艙呢然後彈藥夾艙要買多少呢籌備後能夠這整個符合多少的作戰的效應因為當初這些是連最基本的內容都沒有在整個預算"},{"start":7312.188,"end":7316.611,"text":"預算書裡面所以但是本席從你們今天送來的解凍案中似乎還是依舊沒有看到整個的說明的內容因為這一項的籌購案是一個總額高達428億的跨年度的預算明年度的預算就在9月份就會送到立法院來審查預計大約編列了32億的預算那是不是也是一樣買什麼和買多少都不知道呢"},{"start":7341.247,"end":7350.236,"text":"反正是不是國防部的預算凍結不得 刪減也不得呢還是就會被說成中共同路人呢難道這是國防部在面對預算審查的態度嗎可否請部長簡單的說明一下"},{"start":7355.426,"end":7374.91,"text":"委員好 我是空軍新聞部參謀長跟委員回報我們在F16的案子這個部分包含作戰甲艙跟武器的部分都是列在機密預算裡面那並沒有轉成公務預算那公務預算的部分可能是前面的一些作業費的部分那這個部分我們一直都是列在機密預算裡面跟委員做個報告所以今天不是他已經公開了嗎可以公開預算可以公開"},{"start":7384.847,"end":7406.6,"text":"機密預算的部分目前沒有公開的部分不是不是這個在114年度的時候他這個是已經變成是可以變成轉成公開的預算嗎目前了解的是沒有轉成公開預算的部分從機密就是夾艙的部分還有我們武器彈藥的部分這個部分是沒有轉成公開預算的部分"},{"start":7407.079,"end":7410.4,"text":"好 那沒關係那我再接下來部長你看一下美國同意對外軍售的時候會公佈在美國安和局的這個網站上面所以本席也請助理花了很多時間過濾美國的安和局最近幾年對台軍售的項目裡面就有關F16V作戰資源的夾艙的內容就是剛才所說的那部長你看一下螢幕的內容過濾之後可以發現其實沒有幾項啊"},{"start":7434.508,"end":7448.844,"text":"如果再根據對應的構型來整個我們來篩選一下那其實具體這些軍購案是哪一項其實我們看得非常的清楚啊所以我想再看一下下一個圖表這個是美國安和局宣布同意對台灣軍售的新聞稿數量"},{"start":7452.228,"end":7457.573,"text":"還有跟整個的項目都是清清楚楚的如果美方資訊揭露都那麼完整那是否表示對美國來說這些軍售案根本就已經沒有機密的問題了那國防部的聯度預算書或解凍報告裡面是不是也應該相對的要有基本的資訊的揭露呢"},{"start":7475.246,"end":7500.797,"text":"委員好,我是站會市市長,向委員報告我們這個軍售案的那個制度,一向都是在美方知會國會之前我們會列為機密,是避免遭遇到干擾那EBISODE WE BLOCK 拐動,它的彈藥跟作戰甲槍的部分在美方知會國會之後,我們就開始進入改列公開的這個動作所以目前這個預算改列公開,是因為美方已經知會國會"},{"start":7505.034,"end":7519.973,"text":"那他們都可以公開了那個相關的項目彈藥的這個部分跟委員報告他主要是F-16V不外乎他使用的四型彈藥跟他使用的您看到的這個作戰甲艙的這個部分"},{"start":7522.58,"end":7534.785,"text":"所以我們再來看一下其實國防部各個軍種其實關於年度預算資訊揭露的完整性周本齊真的是要跟部長提到一下就提到我看一下那個陸軍的預算的資訊揭露就是非常的完整我們來訪觀一下我們海馬4的多管的火箭還有托式飛彈到M1A2的戰車這個整個作戰的需求要買多少"},{"start":7546.11,"end":7549.193,"text":"還有要買什麼還有我們美方交付的多少預算書裡面都是清清楚楚的那為什麼陸軍都做得到海軍跟空軍都做不到呢那這問題是不是請部長要多加強海軍空軍的督導啊而且還要提醒一下部長"},{"start":7563.004,"end":7569.69,"text":"只要預算不涉及機密本來就應該要公開資訊的根據預算法裡面規定國防部就有責任還有義務要向我們全體的立法委員說清楚去年我們立法院預算中心的預算評估報告裡面也有提出整個警告"},{"start":7581.16,"end":7587.706,"text":"針對國防部對美國的軍購案有很多項目都沒有按照主計總署要求預算編列的規定寫清楚所以部長希望國防部在下會期送來的立法院審查115年度的預算書裡面至少軍購案裡面的主要的籌購的品項還有各品項籌購的數量"},{"start":7602.757,"end":7615.345,"text":"還有分年度預算、籌貨品項及數量這三項的內容務必要基本的資訊揭露讓我們立法院大家看預算書的時候可以清清楚楚的一目了然"},{"start":7619.407,"end":7636.854,"text":"我們原本在美方智慧國會之後它的各個相關的項目一定會按照預算書表裡面詳細的去陳列至於委員提到的有關於海空軍的部分寫得不夠詳細的話我們會回去重新檢視一下是不是有相關疏漏的部分或是因為"},{"start":7637.554,"end":7660.734,"text":"他當初知會國會的時間剛好是在預算書送達立法院之後也就是解密的時間這個預算書表已經在立法院了所以他之前是機密但是後面知會國會的時間已經進入到裡面我們是後面才進行解密的動作所以可能會產生資訊的落差這一點我們會去做改善"},{"start":7661.63,"end":7665.715,"text":"好那今天時間也不多啦所以這個我想國安部還是要改善好那接下來我再詢問部長關於F16V的戰機延遲交付的問題請問一開始的時候這個計畫是2023年的時候應該要交付4架但是因為新冠肺炎嘛"},{"start":7679.773,"end":7699.778,"text":"還有俄烏戰爭影響改成去年2024年才開始交付但是整年還是沒有交付所以好不容易今年2025年3月我們第一架F16終於出場了但是最近又看到媒體在報導說今年只能交付六架那我想請教一下部長就是根據國防部掌握的資訊就是美國今年究竟"},{"start":7700.998,"end":7703.639,"text":"預計能交付幾架F16戰機給台灣呢全案是不是會一樣維持整個明年2026年會完成整個交付的計畫呢還有國防部現在目前掌握的資訊造成進一步延遲交付的原因到底有哪些呢美國應該是不會毫無理由的故意拖延的吧國防部應該有持續跟美方保持密切溝通吧"},{"start":7728.312,"end":7750.027,"text":"委員好這邊繼續跟委員做個報告這個延遲的原因就如同陳儒這個委員剛剛一開始提到的這個在後疫情時代這個整個供應鏈有慢慢在恢復的這個狀況那恢復不如預期那第二個就是國際局勢的這個變化非常大還有一個很重要的關鍵因素是我們這個整個系統都是非常先進很多在美軍跟我們來講"},{"start":7750.828,"end":7771.054,"text":"是第一次做一個系統的整合所以在整合上的風險都非常的高那我們每一次每個月的專案會議都有督促美方也都了解到進度我們也有定期不定期的訪場了解整個專案的進度美方在組裝線上也有增加人力跟組裝站的作為"},{"start":7772.654,"end":7795.099,"text":"那目前我們最後一次就在上個月的專案會議裡面也都非常的樂觀看待明年底能夠如期的交付那今年媒體報導的這個六價我們從來沒有看過這個數字那在美方的評估今年交機就是產權轉移十價以上這個是非常樂觀那以上跟委員報告"},{"start":7796.479,"end":7810.535,"text":"好那我最後再因為時間到了再問一個問題就是今天部長有說網路站加擠已經開始實施了目前的增幅的幅度增加的幅度到底有多少呢還有第二波加擠的時候是何時可以實施呢第一波的部分的網路站加擠的部分呢他這個網路站的加擠其實是"},{"start":7819.407,"end":7848.133,"text":"蠻複雜的,它有分成專精二級、專精一級、精英二級、精英一級跟專家級這個是我們,它本身就是一個很複雜的一個它需要取得相關的一些證照啊等等的然後還有一些戰國的評估所以我們本身就是一個很複雜的一個網路戰家級那戰狼館家級跟定層家級現在已經在行政院在審議當中所以第二波家級何時實施還不知道"},{"start":7851.608,"end":7869.557,"text":"鎮安館的勤務加急跟電增的加急我們當然就期待行政院能夠加速審議所以現在還沒有嗎?對不對?還在研議中嗎?還是審議中?就應該是在院裡面吧OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":7874.771,"end":7885.821,"text":"謝謝林委員 部長請回那待會我們這個王定宇委員執行完畢以後我們那個短暫休息五分鐘不好意思那現在請王定宇委員上台執行謝謝主席 麻煩部長有請部長"},{"start":7910.289,"end":7930.123,"text":"部長早,有好幾個訊息我想我把握時間盡快詢問,也希望在不影響國家安全、不影響保密的規定下,我們盡量透明的讓民眾了解。第一個,我看到一個很荒謬的現象,全世界台灣大概是網路攻擊受害的第一名,每年都第一名。"},{"start":7931.084,"end":7953.933,"text":"每一天平時根據國安局的報告就有240萬次的網路攻擊主要的來源不管是透過VPN 透過跳板大概跟中國都脫不了干系中國還有戰略支援部隊他們的總部在上海以及其他地方結果他們現在把我們的支通電軍他公佈了一個20名"},{"start":7956.514,"end":7983.016,"text":"那這個資料我贊成國防部你不用去跟他講是或不是就讓他們亂猜他現在今天最新的消息是國台辦竟然這標準的做大賊到處喊抓賊說什麼廣州一家資安公司被駭客現在他們準備把台灣的知通電軍這20個人納入重點監管範圍第一個國防部的態度以及我們有沒有反制的做法"},{"start":7985.611,"end":7995.539,"text":"我想我們廣播的態度當然就是認為是說真正在做這些妄害的,我想第一個還要先說明的,真正妄害的這個"},{"start":7997.29,"end":8018.703,"text":"全世界都公認的是中國在進行這樣的妄害是最多那我們的中間核心任務還是要維護這個國境的資訊,確保網路的安全那相關的這些剛剛因為幾個委員都聽到了,我們防範的部分現在就是說既然是"},{"start":8021.52,"end":8047.367,"text":"這個四重情報機關嘛那所以我們對四重情報機關在勤工法的規範之下我們來建立相關的這些保護安全管控跟這些機制保護重要他們的司法管轄權不及於我們跟世界各地也是事實但現在中國是進行所謂的法理長臂管轄的法理戰所以對於你看上次主張武統武統是什麼意思啊"},{"start":8048.565,"end":8072.381,"text":"贊成解放軍來殺我們的軍人來攻擊我們的國家上次那個中國籍配偶雅雅因為贊成武統現在被遣返回去她昨天也在那邊發布說這20個自動電軍要抓起來神祭儀法這擺明了土匪我們在國軍保護自己的國家是正正當當的國家的軍隊"},{"start":8073.482,"end":8102.453,"text":"他們現在想要侵略我們的國家想要消滅我們的國家用法律的概念說要通緝某個將領要抓某個軍人資料內容未必為真但他用這種態度要展現殘弊管轄對他們相關的人負荷的人國安部有沒有考慮採取法律動作你將來要再入境台灣你這種恐嚇國軍主張把國軍要讓中共來懲治啦 研辦啦"},{"start":8103.984,"end":8109.839,"text":"這樣子的行為我認為法律戰還是要用法律為之我不知道部長你是法律人這事應該怎麼辦"},{"start":8111.167,"end":8134.91,"text":"我想中國對我們進行所謂的心理戰、認知戰跟這個輿論戰這個是每天都在進行的而且相當綿密的然後來這個結合這個我們在地的協力者來進行這樣的一個作為那所以我想我們"},{"start":8137.353,"end":8151.525,"text":"對這個法律戰的一個認知是我們從來不認為他可以管轄到我們這一點在國際上我們要清楚的說明這也就是說明我們像現在"},{"start":8153.386,"end":8180.219,"text":"好像王委員也被列入了我列入好多次了本來還覺得蠻高興的我好像也被列入了那所以像這樣子的我認為這種心理戰跟認知戰的作為程度是比較高這一題我先在這邊打住啦就是說我建議國安部去尤其用法律思考一下這種附和來恐嚇我們國軍的我們在中華民國的司法體系告他你以後再入境辦他"},{"start":8182.398,"end":8199.438,"text":"這個東西就是我們國家有司法主權我們國家的國軍是憲法的部隊不能讓這些土匪的行徑來威脅我們第二個題目要請教的是F5F5要除役了那F5其實對我們中華民國空軍來講是很有感情的"},{"start":8200.579,"end":8223.933,"text":"一架飛機從1965年11月28號第一架F-5A呢美國用援助的方式提供給我們第一架到現在服役超過50年我們空軍最多的時候擁有423架其中國產的就有336架1973年從諾斯洛普那邊得到技術在台灣生產到1986年生產了308架等等那"},{"start":8229.196,"end":8248.163,"text":"這一個過程F5可以說是捍衛我國領空是一個相當有超過50年我相信在場的飛官我們的教官們步訊機大概都飛過這一架過去的大漠計畫我們援助越南F5都看到影子一架飛機的廚藝"},{"start":8250.56,"end":8276.848,"text":"有很多舉辦的方式我不知道現在國防部這個廚藝我聽說六月底要廚藝了這個廚藝的規模是在中隊聯隊還是大隊辦一辦有沒有什麼特殊的儀式或紀念式的活動我的了解應該是會在7月4號吧花蓮基地來進行這樣的一個一個廚藝的一個典禮這樣子我給你看法國"},{"start":8277.748,"end":8303.895,"text":"這影片大家看的參考就好法國的這一個他的幻象1除役典禮他會拍一個日本也會他們的幽靈4戰機在除役的時候第一個會一個影片然後第二個在地上的分裂式或怎樣來尊榮這個老兵保護我們的領空他退伍了這一個除役的動作我真的建議空軍或者我們國防部可以"},{"start":8306.345,"end":8331.941,"text":"更具備紀念性的也讓他想起我們的領空在這麼多空軍艦兒也很多人付出生命的代價捍衛著他而F5伴隨著我們超過50年的時間這個儀式不可以潦草舉辦啦我知道那如果7月4號要辦呢時間很迫近啦我真的建議可以好好來舉辦一個F5的除役活動這個是給部長的建議你們目前有什麼樣的規劃現在"},{"start":8337.385,"end":8362.576,"text":"我想我們應該會做一個紀念影片會參與其他國家做法來製作具有這樣傳承跟紀念意義的一個影像讓國人一同來見證這個榮耀那典禮的這個規劃的這個部分我想我們現在還在進行當中好 我們希望如果到時候的話可以的話我們國防委員會也可以受到邀請去見證"},{"start":8363.556,"end":8376.763,"text":"如果不方便沒關係因為這先到人力物力跟你們勤務的時間這不勉強那接下來我這個建議那個部長國軍內部管理工作教範我們以往還沒有正式我們6月20號2019年6月20號有一個修訂版"},{"start":8380.705,"end":8394.416,"text":"規定是志願役就職業軍人6點出營第二天早上7點半要入營那其實以前沒有這個叫飯的時候呢那個原來的規定默契是早上的"},{"start":8396.918,"end":8415.287,"text":"下午的五點半下午的五點半離營然後早上的八點進入營區啦原來的規定比較人性化是第一方面志願役軍人他的家庭大概都在當地所以不管是孩子的上下學家庭的生活作息原來的朝八下午五點半"},{"start":8416.167,"end":8435.372,"text":"比較接近我們現在是早上呢7點半以前就要露營然後晚上到6點才能離營這個跟上班作息時間會有點落差我們原來戰備期間根本就沒有什麼休假了但在平時平時的時候如果可以有更有"},{"start":8436.132,"end":8447.554,"text":"符合生活特性更人性化的管理其實這個對志願役的軍官士兵來講是一個可以做得到的事情我不知道部長怎麼看這個事情這不是大事但是應該做得到"},{"start":8449.97,"end":8464.822,"text":"這個部分我覺得我們還是要考量操課前後的相關訓練的準備的所需要的工作跟時間如果下午是五點半可以離營早上八點就上班時間才露營因為現在會影響到操課嗎"},{"start":8466.744,"end":8485.296,"text":"因為現在操課的時間就是會到下午的這個如果下午來講會到6點不過我們如果委員關心的話是針對特殊的個案我們經過這個邊界上校主管的核定可以來做一個調整"},{"start":8485.956,"end":8502.737,"text":"所以他是可以個案調整的就是針對一些特殊的個案部長是不是這樣就是說在有操課班表的需求的值班的本來就要值班的這個按照這一個那對於沒有這樣的特性的話這個上班時間我沒有說一定要怎麼樣讓部長去考量"},{"start":8504.98,"end":8523.517,"text":"就是讓我們的志願役的軍官士官士兵們在上下班上能夠比較接近家庭生活作息我做這樣建議讓部長去做參酌下一件事情給部長我覺得國防醫學院要解釋一下小事但這都作業上的不嚴謹"},{"start":8526.053,"end":8539.357,"text":"國防醫學院的醫學級戰傷救護嚴錫銀這個很好提高全民韌性報名的開始時間是6月10號報名截止是6月3號部長有沒有看出他的問題網站上報名時間是6月10號開始然後想要報名的人在6月3號就收到說我們已經報名額滿了那國防醫學院在幹什麼 這內定的"},{"start":8555.383,"end":8578.512,"text":"這就是國防醫學院說明你告訴我這是什麼原因是 包委員 這個應該是內部作業沒有 這公告喔 你們的公告喔我6月10號開始接受報名然後呢 網路上的作業已經通知要報名說我們6月3號已經額滿了你們是有內定名額是不是包委員 沒有那沒有 你告訴我 6月3號學院哪裡來的"},{"start":8580.766,"end":8608.095,"text":"那這個我們下去會再你現在手上有沒有報名的名單你現在手上如果已經有報名的名單今天是6月11吧6月11嘛那你們那個就做假的啊要不然你現在手上怎麼會有報名的名單理論上是昨天開始接受報名然後你們6月3號就跟人家講額滿了然後你現在手上已經有報名額滿的名單了啊這不是內定什麼是內定小事但從小看大你們如果這樣作業的話"},{"start":8609.255,"end":8633.066,"text":"每件公文我都要開始懷疑每個作業時程你們答應的節點我也開始懷疑國防醫學院哪一個最科學的啊怎麼會發生這種事你知道你們上次也一樣這樣的事情你們上次報名類似的營隊也發生過一次我那一次議題太多沒有問你沒想到現在又來一次你們是內部的子女很樂於報名這個還是怎樣"},{"start":8635.64,"end":8662.438,"text":"謝謝委員長 我一定會要求公安醫學院來做一個充分的說明我謝謝那個我們後備 因為後備旅較糟的費用物品費三月都沒有了 很多人帶電不過這部分你們已經解決了那個是你們在人事跟物品費的項目的編列數額有一個落差 那解決就好那我也謝謝你們 昨天跟你們反映你們今天開始要作業處理這個事情不要讓基層的官兵"},{"start":8663.479,"end":8670.832,"text":"帶電費用啦 這個事情不要再發生了好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝林委員 部長請回那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9195.097,"end":9217.506,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,有請陳雪生委員上台質詢好,謝謝主席,是不是請顧部長有請部長是,陳委員部長早,辛苦了"},{"start":9218.618,"end":9245.729,"text":"那麼今天質詢一個緊急呼籲一個蝴蝶採風的環流效應已經到達馬祖了那麼這兩天我們海上的交通已經全部中斷尤其離島的也中斷了氣候也不是非常好目前還在目前還沒開場那麼我們縣政府已經提出軍機申請的要求請國防部這邊就是軍機"},{"start":9248.157,"end":9262.068,"text":"西腰山洞能不能已經提出申請了,因為旅客非常的多,那麼海上的交通中斷,能不能請部長幫個忙,能夠同意我們我們是請看"},{"start":9264.261,"end":9277.075,"text":"如果說天氣許可的情況下,我們空軍都會有做一個緊急待命的飛機,提出申請我們評估完,如果說可以的話我們都會執行請幫忙一下好不好,不要說一架兩架,三架四架都要去好不好,拜託一下"},{"start":9278.476,"end":9293.99,"text":"之前有去過試駕的紀錄,試駕次不是試駕,他其實兩駕次嘛兩駕次降落以後飛回來再飛一趟所以我們會平衡一下我們整個戰備任務跟軍機許可的狀況第二件事情就是部長"},{"start":9295.336,"end":9321.908,"text":"馬阿祖到高雄航線已經飛了其實這一個航線我們主要還是為了軍人因為那邊在南部的軍事兵大概有一半那我也希望國防部在票價的部分能夠在預算上做個適合的一個調整讓他們回家的路能夠更近部長可以嗎差不多三分之二都是官兵"},{"start":9323.332,"end":9350.566,"text":"三分之二都是官兵,好不好?鮑委員我們了解,那個入侵部已經在編列相關的預算未來看怎麼樣沒有的話先雲枝流用都可以嘛,好不好?這個讓馬防部的官兵能夠順利的能夠回家,好不好?這個行業畢竟不容易,你不要隨便讓他再關閉好不好?好,謝謝,請回...部長最近啊,大陸解放軍東部戰區演習我想請問一下"},{"start":9351.86,"end":9371.232,"text":"我們台灣這邊也在做兵推,那金門馬祖,尤其我關心的是馬祖地區,四個鄉五個島。那麼整體的戰略規劃,兵推的結果是怎麼樣?你能夠告訴我們?還是部長你無法回答,請適當的人員來回答我的問題?"},{"start":9372.375,"end":9394.141,"text":"您講的是指這兩天民間做的兵推還是我們?你們在前兩個禮拜在馬祖做過兵推,就防衛韌性的演習那個是屬於城鎮韌性的那個部分城鎮韌性的部分,我想他是從韌性的角度,由內政部那邊來"},{"start":9396.022,"end":9414.781,"text":"主導有關,當然還有行政院會做協調,然後做一個有關早上會議題式的併推,下午會實作,這個是屬於城市內心的部分現在馬祖的軍力,這兩四動大炮部署在北竿南竿"},{"start":9416.448,"end":9438.643,"text":"那麼他裝填砲彈要一分鐘,最少要一分鐘他準備的時間很久,要半個鐘頭到幾個小時準備的時間,裝填砲彈所以你第一級出去以後,馬上會被鎖定第二級的話可能都打不出去,這個要注意好不好155家大概裝填的時間比較快一點"},{"start":9439.892,"end":9458.385,"text":"那現在就是說在南竿裡面部署的雷霆2000,雷霆2000大概是自走式的,打了就可以跑,這個是比較好。目前它的模組有MK15、MK30、MK45,這個火力大概比較強。那我現在在意的是什麼?"},{"start":9459.495,"end":9475.759,"text":"在意的是當作戰發生的時候,我們台灣這邊國防部對我們整個馬祖有可能與本島隔絕,那我們目前的兵力及戰略,國防部有沒有做一個妥適的規劃,怎麼樣來救援馬祖?"},{"start":9480.485,"end":9501.877,"text":"跟委員報告,我想相關的這些有關我們的防衛作戰的運用,應該不適宜在這個公開的場合來做出我知道,你能夠回答就回答,不能回答當然就不用回答我想應該是不適宜在這裡做一個回答"},{"start":9503.217,"end":9520.349,"text":"目前因為我們也擔心,尤其東引這個島,你也知道我們也部署了雄豐、天宮都在那邊,尤其是雄豐目前中共解放軍海軍的基地,它在寧德那邊是第15支隊在那邊"},{"start":9522.23,"end":9537.167,"text":"他的潛水艇要出來,會經過東引,會看得到他從潛水艇出來攻打台灣的時候,那個地方一定看得到看得到我們雄風如果第一級出去的話,我們面臨的問題東引會不會毀滅因為我們從96年的非戰危機有沒有"},{"start":9541.252,"end":9563.219,"text":"現在中共軍方那邊已經解密了,他們有100個將軍在那邊沉浸一個江津島,幹什麼?針對我們東莒地區東莒地區幹什麼?我們現在也知道,他準備要燒一旦來打這個島然後進在西莒,然後進在南甘,我們現在已經知道了"},{"start":9564.139,"end":9593.374,"text":"所以在東隱這個地方,如果他的潛水艇出沒的話潛水艇出沒的話,讓我們雄風再出去當然對潛水艇是致命的打擊但是你致命的第一擊以後,我們整個東隱島就完蛋了所以你們對東隱地區也好,東隱地區的居民啊到目前為止有沒有收容安置啊,或者防空洞避難啊等等有沒有做類似的一個演習是不是請部長回答"},{"start":9595.486,"end":9619.404,"text":"我想我們關於整個兵力的布置的部分,還是請委員能夠諒解我們的防衛作戰的內容應該還是屬於機敏的,應該沒有辦法民眾暫時的避難疏散,我想整體的部分我們會在陳正任性的時候,會做一個相關的演練"},{"start":9620.365,"end":9647.274,"text":"因為我今天的質詢是提醒部長您注意一下這個兩岸之間現在兵兇戰委他的演習區域不曉得在哪裡當然我也呼籲他們因為彼岸那邊大部分都是我們的親友也都是我們馬祖人的親戚馬祖人的居民大部分也都是從那個地方搬過來的所以希望就是說不要對我們馬祖來動手我常常也呼籲他們"},{"start":9648.214,"end":9673.38,"text":"但是我們在防衛能力的部分,我們還是要有準備,因為到目前為止我所了解的,當然因為這是機敏的問題我所了解的資料當然是遼禄支長非常的清楚,因為常年在那邊,軍人跟我們同島一命在96年的時候,我們子彈都已經發到每一個家戶,18歲以上的我們壯丁幾乎都有步槍都在手上"},{"start":9674.44,"end":9699.076,"text":"但是你們一旦作戰,你們要考慮到我們民眾的問題,不是說阿兵哥在那邊做兵推啊所以民眾任性演習的部分,我希望國防部跟內政部你們也能夠納入好不好部長是,尤其民眾的這個暫時疏散避難的這個部分是屬於我們你們要做妥適的規劃好不好是,我們任性的一環另外就是這個,跟你提一下靶場的事情,北竿靶場"},{"start":9701.819,"end":9720.326,"text":"陸軍常務長曾經也允諾我,這個靶場已經往前目前先暫處的一個措施,也就是說推到75公尺,原來是300公尺我常常講一句話,現在的作戰不是用步槍,現在的作戰都是用火箭跟飛彈"},{"start":9722.347,"end":9739.625,"text":"光打到步槍的時候,以我們的兵力要跟敵軍要對幹的話應該是機會非常的渺茫但是我們暫時的演練,平常的演練一定是必備的啦一定是必備的你目前南竿柱羅靶場"},{"start":9741.24,"end":9762.068,"text":"南竿的兵力比北竿來得多嘛,它的靶場也是個小靶場,也沒有300公尺那你北竿那邊少部的兵力,加上來台灣輪修,然後在營區又輪修剩下兵力所剩無幾啊,是不是所以你這個靶場需要在市中心也就是淡黃的區塊"},{"start":9763.71,"end":9789.073,"text":"來做這麼大規模的一個靶場有必要嗎所以我建議在歷次的總質詢裡面,建議能夠移到遷移到別的地方當然我在這個院會也總質詢了好幾次,都沒有人回答我這個問題不過顧部長謝謝您,我本來說要躺在那邊跟你們對幹但我想自己人嘛,是不是"},{"start":9790.368,"end":9815.871,"text":"總算今天元旦已經把這個風頭,參謀長這個英明的領導把這個風頭已經避過了所以參謀長還跟我講說,再一起到北竿勘察一次我敢去嗎?我說你不要命我會死耶,你知道嗎?那個民間的壓力很大你想想看,部長,我跟你報告過了周邊是什麼?醫院、國中、國小"},{"start":9817.299,"end":9838.476,"text":"長照中心你每天那個子彈在那邊砰砰砰在那邊打如果你是個病人,你是個學生在上課上一半這個在那邊打的話你受得了嗎所以這個遷移是勢在必行也謝謝部長陸軍那邊給我說五年的時間遷移部長能不能明確回答我一下這個問題"},{"start":9840.394,"end":9858.539,"text":"我想我們就如在這裡講的,我們寶廠的隔音牆已經開始施作,就這個遷移的地點我們會盡快來進行探測,然後規劃來盡速完成他現在是什麼?只花了五百萬要做一個隔音牆"},{"start":9859.83,"end":9880.179,"text":"做個隔音牆只做75公尺,本來想說這把牆就75公尺,我沒想到還是一樣,還是300公尺而且那一棟老舊的建築物,我本來說把它拆掉因為我們馬祖已經是光光立現了,你那個很突兀的一個老舊建築物擺在那個地方"},{"start":9880.959,"end":9908.456,"text":"事不像影響到我們的觀光,也影響到我們市區的安全部長能不能在這個部分你們從長計議做一個改善?隔音牆的部分我再請他們入軍做個評估有關其他地點的探勘跟相關的規劃我們再來部長能不能請入軍在一個月之內再向我做一次簡報可以嗎?"},{"start":9910.279,"end":9920.936,"text":"是,我想到委員那邊跟委員請教,我想陸軍應該會來做我的問政,我一直在挺國防部,我一直都是挺軍人的"},{"start":9921.727,"end":9940.616,"text":"我想部長您到任沒多久,我想所有的軍人他們都了然於胸我對軍人是非常支持的,我的父親也是軍人,也是陸關畢業的我以前從小就住在眷村,耳濡目染,我對軍人的尊敬無以復加"},{"start":9941.676,"end":9966.836,"text":"所以最近提出來什麼阿兵哥要優先等等,我們馬哈祖的軍人也提出來說他們在馬哈祖坐船、坐飛機能不能也優先因為馬哈祖的位置真的是非常少,飛機的定位、船的定位非常的少這一點我也請縣政府這邊去做研究部長你對軍人也拜託多照顧一下好不好是"},{"start":9968.416,"end":9995.393,"text":"最後一個問題就是金門大展已經開放了,開放觀光了馬祖這邊高登我數過去大概不到多少人因為精敏資料,我也不方便在這邊跟你報告但是我知道是多少人那你人數非常有限有沒有機會高登能夠開放觀光像比照大展的模式能不能做一個研究"},{"start":9998.863,"end":10023.677,"text":"報告這個案子馬防部他也做過評估因為高登他的地理條件和大膽其實也不太相同那馬防部初步的評估是如果開放觀光還是有一些對軍事安全上潛在的威脅那也在2月16號有把相關的評估報告有含文到這個縣府去那後續我們會再因應整個環境上的"},{"start":10025.298,"end":10049.471,"text":"實際的狀況隨時來做一些相關的判斷參謀長,據我的了解高登的彼岸是連江、黃崎、台陸、北郊最接近我們是北郊跟台陸那你沒有什麼兵力了福州軍區撤銷以後變成東部戰區兵力不多"},{"start":10050.899,"end":10053.555,"text":"兵力不多,對我們高登島的威脅,而且他對馬祖"},{"start":10055.277,"end":10081.403,"text":"敵意也沒那麼強啦,我說實在話敵意沒那麼強因為兩岸互動的非常的好,尤其民間我們互動的非常好所以打我們的機會,除了政治上的意涵我想在軍事上是毫無意義的我評估工黨馬祖的機率,我們如果沒有用飛彈火箭去攻擊人家大概暫時發生的可能性,我個人的評估應該是蠻小的"},{"start":10083.664,"end":10111.185,"text":"所以在這個時間點,我覺得高登如果適時的開放其實你們很多的坑道、部隊你看以前在北竿、南竿有100個傘兵坑的據點也就機槍連等等這都沒有啦,現在剩一個到兩個據點剩一個到兩個那你這樣已經不敷防衛的需求了對不起你如果能夠"},{"start":10112.421,"end":10141.216,"text":"能夠做一個觀光在戰時的時候這些據點也不會荒廢嘛是不是部隊進入據點馬上就可以作戰啦這對軍方來講也是好事啊你們不能夠從觀光的這個方向去考慮這個問題嗎是不是一旦他們攻打過來南竿北竿有兵力能夠支援高登嗎也支援不了啊也支援不了啊那你不如開放觀光是不是老百姓在有觀光客在那個島上"},{"start":10142.349,"end":10169.724,"text":"他們解放軍也不會輕易的發射火箭或是發射炮彈來打嘛是不是現在都是用火箭啦我剛才講的兩四棟大炮,155加炮因為莊田的速度,還有目前衛星的監測這種的火力都已經慢慢要淘汰了所以當然希望你們在防衛任性的部分對馬祖的部署希望能夠加強而且要注意好不好,部長"},{"start":10170.748,"end":10194.028,"text":"那個當然今天最重要的還是一個是飛機啦,經濟能夠支援我們還有這個大大腦開放的問題,好不好還有這個靶場的問題,希望部長能夠用心回去的時候能夠幫我們想一想辦法能夠做一些改善跟解決,部長可以嗎?我會請他們來進行演繹,再跟我報告好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席謝謝陳委員,部長請回"},{"start":10198.942,"end":10204.955,"text":"接下來有請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":10219.864,"end":10238.781,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政務機關所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請顧部長 還有黃副參謀總長執行官 以及中科院的李中將 李院長有請部長 還有處長 謝謝 還有院長 謝謝所有中委"},{"start":10240.576,"end":10251.584,"text":"部長好那麼我們副參謀長長好久不見還有我們的李院長好那今天呢我們來談的就是最近很紅的無人載具來 我們想看"},{"start":10252.745,"end":10275.877,"text":"最近 今天到今天為止 還在辦一個民間自辦的台海兵推結果媒體的報紙呢 有兩種評價一個是說 哎呀 這個美日台重大兵推 落慘結果呢 台灣組拿不出辦法出來另外一個是 台海兵推 那個中共挑釁 我們按兵不動請問 這個有 部長知道這個兵推嗎有在關注嗎"},{"start":10279.076,"end":10295.205,"text":"我想我們了解有民間這樣辦的一個那你也了解有這三個國家的一些退役的將領來參加吧當然相關的訊息有掌握那你覺得他們這樣的兵推是不是有助於全民對於我們戰略模擬的一個認知"},{"start":10296.623,"end":10317.606,"text":"我想相關的這個民間的兵推,自辦的兵推,我們在他們兵推結束之後,我們會索取相關的資料,都會納入我們的參考是的,我想部長這樣非常開明,因為國防不是只有,就像您說的,不是只有職業軍人的事情,不是國防部的事情,是全民都要來關注,是不是?"},{"start":10318.829,"end":10328.633,"text":"是 我想大家都關心國航是一件好事好 最近在上週最熱門的就是烏克蘭的豬網行動部長你認為它是一個敵後滲透攻擊還是一個戰場的對敵反制我想這個應該顯示就是說無人機的這個運用在烏克蘭戰爭裡面顯示它已經產生了一些"},{"start":10344.554,"end":10365.758,"text":"他對其他國家的參考應該是已經起了一些關鍵性的思維的轉換然後整個作戰的思維都值得我們來加以參佐簡單用兩個話這個會造成的是說台灣可以用無人機驅逐中國還是中國可以用無人機來恐攻台灣你覺得哪一個可能性比較大"},{"start":10372.204,"end":10383.088,"text":"我看的是一身冷汗,你可能不變膽,有人看的,哇,烏克蘭好啊,以小即大,但是我看的是剛好相反,我覺得台灣更容易陷入這樣的一個敵後的滲透攻擊,你認為呢?"},{"start":10385.064,"end":10400.783,"text":"我想對於共軍各型無人機的一些研製跟應用的這個狀況,我們都要納入評估。那我們延續之後,我們對於可能的威脅,我們都有掌握。"},{"start":10404.046,"end":10426.467,"text":"不但是要掌握還要進行研析然後要加以應對其實這個無人機的生產攻擊它會開始走向都市游擊對話這是一個媒體的報導用3D列印就可以幫一個恐怖組織去投射彈藥這邊也提到了中國本身也開始設置了一個無人機的專修室換言之說今天所謂的俗稱過去稱的第五重對照潛伏到台灣來"},{"start":10427.228,"end":10435.419,"text":"以台灣現有的開放民間的材料腐蝕及得只要有人員進來他就可以自行組裝很多不需要大型的軍武工廠是不是這樣子很有可能啊他在3D列印在你台灣這邊做啦"},{"start":10445.154,"end":10462.839,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我想對於這樣子的一個無人機的整個的運用依照這個烏克蘭之前發動的它必須要花費相當長的一個時間對潛伏很久籌劃很久來做相關的一個沒有錯它需要相當的潛伏跟運量"},{"start":10463.619,"end":10479.541,"text":"物質的調度人員的安排然後來一個奇襲的攻擊對不對所以我們有相當程度的掌握我想我們會來也要來緩緩這樣子的一個狀況但是以台灣目前的情況要製造無人機不成問題彈藥比較難取得"},{"start":10481.041,"end":10506.3,"text":"所以這種情況之下 如果敵方要做敵後的滲透攻擊他首先的就是彈藥拿來取得是我們軍品彈藥的防竊或者說杜絕走私製造就變得很重要軍品彈藥防竊是國防部責務旁帶杜絕走私製造這個就需要其他行政部門包括海巡 包括警方的配合請問國防部有沒有思考到這個部分對於在他們潛入到台灣來取得在民間取得爆裂物的這個可能性有沒有辦法去防堵"},{"start":10507.04,"end":10521.629,"text":"有沒有做一個這樣的管理跟思維就我們現在的槍花彈藥刀血管制條例的這個管制上來講的話彈藥的生產製造尤其火工部門的話都是軍備局跟工科院才可以製造嘛所以它的防線很重要嘛"},{"start":10522.469,"end":10550.241,"text":"怕被人家偷走嘛好萊塢的電影都是去偷軍火來幹恐怖攻擊嘛對不對也就是說我們民間並沒有這樣子的一個彈藥的囤儲是所以說未來的軍品彈藥防竊非常重要避免被對後做敵後滲透攻擊的時候拿來取材好往下看所以在另外我們面對這個機敏設施關鍵設施預防斬首擊殺無人機我們要軟硬兼施嘛軟殺跟硬殺嘛但是軟殺跟硬殺現在發生一個問題了光纖導引的無人機它沒辦法軟殺怎麼辦"},{"start":10552.27,"end":10577.524,"text":"我們有沒有做各種的毛與頓的砂盤推演不可能像美軍一樣為了打兩百美元的無人機用三百萬美元的飛彈去打嘛不可能嘛反制無人機的這個部分現在當然一方面進展的也相當快就是說如同委員在這邊有提到的這個軟砂的部分硬砂的部分硬砂的部分當然還有包括有這個煉炮還有這個雷射等等的這些高"},{"start":10580.786,"end":10602.257,"text":"高科技的這種進步,現在都在我們密注關注的範圍,也在我們要努力來籌貨的部分,所以反制無人機確實是我們現在建軍的一個重點項目之一。就有人說他用光鮮的,因為光鮮很貴,光鮮的無人機來跟你做群攻不划算,他用光鮮的把你的耳目先打掉。"},{"start":10602.917,"end":10627.113,"text":"讓你的軟沙或讓你的硬沙沒有辦法去找到目標但是光線也有一定的距離的限制所以很怕他的敵後陣頭攻擊我們怕的就是這一點他這個部分就是他要到底的作戰地境所以就是說我們現在在說是不是要有一個無人機載具的谷土防衛學院這樣的一個民間智庫如果有人在推動這樣的民間智庫國防部的態度是怎麼樣是支持還是不樂見"},{"start":10628.696,"end":10655.046,"text":"我想無人載具的部分我們整個是我們軍民整合現在裡面重要的一環所以我們不只是我們中科院也好軍備局也好那我們現在不但要釋出這個相關的這個關鍵的一些技術給到民間那我們也希望跟民間一起來合作那最重要當然就是說我們要建立我們這個相關的無人載具的一個自准能量"},{"start":10655.646,"end":10677.115,"text":"那另外也要引進相關不同的科技來進行這個迭代創新因為現在不只是無人機還有無人艇然後剩下水下的無人載具這個都可能是在隨著這樣子的一個科技的進步那麼形成這樣一定的戰力之後納入我們籌購的範圍之後可以應用成為我們作戰運用"},{"start":10681.176,"end":10706.799,"text":"我想這裡要提醒部長跟各位這個國防重要的領導人其實呢 無人機不是只是一個裝備 也不是一個科技它會整個顛覆我們的戰法跟戰術也就是說 就跟我們的前膛槍改為有後方裝彈之後整個部邊的陣列就不一樣了所以這個部分不能只是有裝備科技的延伸還要有整個使用思維的改變那這點我是跟部長做這樣的建議"},{"start":10707.74,"end":10727.138,"text":"無人機確實是有部署靈活還有一個戰術運用的彈性甚至有通訊中繼等等這樣子的一些功能特性所以它確實是對戰力裡面現在重要的一環所以不是只有裝備跟科技的研發而已還有包括運用的技巧所以現在除了這個之外我們軍品採購的思維也要改變我們過去這幾年來"},{"start":10732.242,"end":10744.355,"text":"立法院支持我們國防預算編了很多購置無人機無人載具的預算但是這個買來是當作編裝的裝備使用但是編裝的裝備你知道嗎阿兵哥他是敢去動嗎掉一下下來就幾十萬幾百萬欸幾百萬欸所以也就是說我們現在採購的思維應該把訓練教育"},{"start":10751.662,"end":10775.361,"text":"跟未來的戰備應用做兩套的思維也就是說就像我們空軍一樣不可能一來的飛官就飛直接的一個第一線戰機他一定有教練機也一定有其他的前置的訓練所以其實要增加無人機的採購規模委外的教育訓練這一塊可以提供民間很大的商機換言之我來接受你軍方要委託的無人機的飛手訓練飛機我提供"},{"start":10777.563,"end":10799.09,"text":"摔壞了我負責我甚至可以找保險不要列入我們軍品當中的品項是要做維護的拿來打仗的是一個拿來訓練的是一個那這個部分呢可以大量的擴充我們軍用商規的無人機的生產也就是說我們軍事採購的那些編制書就有限嘛沒有打仗你沒有損耗你不會增加但是我們的教育訓練是經常會有損耗的"},{"start":10800.49,"end":10822.535,"text":"所以把教育訓練外包出去之後它的損耗自然會形成一個供應鏈下一個我們來看一下所以本土的供應鏈去紅供應鏈一定要有足夠的市場規模我之前對於軍兵採購不斷的提出如果我們沒有足夠的採購規模我們的廠商我們的國人我們的技術做得到但他不會投資就像拿光電球kimbo來說好了"},{"start":10822.995,"end":10838.687,"text":"目前我們無人機偵測最重要的光電球哪個地方生產最好東歐生產最好台灣要不要投入產線來製造做得到但是呢沒有那個量你沒有一年一千顆的量你投資那個產線不划算但是國防部有辦法每年買一千組嗎"},{"start":10839.608,"end":10859.654,"text":"不可能所以要對外去擴充這個無人機的市場對內我們要創造我們軍用商規無人機的使用機會不是打仗才來用教育訓練演習就來用那這些裝備你可以用怎樣用租賃的用教育服務租賃的不是用購買的這樣才能擴大我們無人機供應商的市場部長您同不同意"},{"start":10860.772,"end":10886.207,"text":"跟委員報告,現在有好幾個,您剛剛問的問題有好幾個層次,第一個是無人機的訓練這個部分我們本來就已經有出街的,我們運用一些小型損耗力高的這些無人機來進行出街的一個訓練然後進而再進階,所以我們陸軍成立無人機訓練中心,海軍陸戰隊事實上也有訓練中心,這是一塊另外擴大這個本土的供應鏈的這個部分,就是我們現在正在進行的,也就是說"},{"start":10886.927,"end":10899.253,"text":"要如何達到拳擊飛鴻這樣的一個概念的話包括整個不管是控制的單元或者是通訊的單元相關的這些晶片或者馬達還有電池等等這些的話我想真正能夠在地生產這個就是我們現在的目標我想現在要這個"},{"start":10913.879,"end":10933.308,"text":"從院裡面到國安部然後到這個大家在努力的事就這樣子事實上中間也提出一個共版的一個通用共版的一個無人機也就是說不只是軍方民間民間有一個共版的一個架構那麼到了戰時的時候呢我們加裝我們所需要的這一個"},{"start":10934.508,"end":10960.336,"text":"這個軟體進去以後就可以做一個軍用所以把這個生產的能量放入在民間然後讓民間有一個自主的能量的產生這是我們現在正在大體研究的方向然後另外當然要打入國際的供應鏈那這個部分我想跟其他一個周邊的國家都有相當的共識但是詳細的情形可能不便加以說明部長其實您講得很完整但我只有一個提醒"},{"start":10961.036,"end":10981.037,"text":"因為無人採取這個很特殊,它不是一個軍備的傳統軍備需要由軍火工廠來生產,它是一個軍用可以商規,商規也可以商用所以有這麼多的民間部門,有工業技術研究院,技術中心,有傳播研究中心,有其他大專院校現在我所知道有三所國立大學,就是我們分別成立的三個研發中心"},{"start":10981.937,"end":11005.367,"text":"這些都可以來協助商用軍規的無人機的研發當然它也有它商用的市場所以無人機的研發不一定要由中科院來我再強調一次其他的飛彈那個民間沒有在用飛彈的啦但是無人機民間用的很多所以軍用商規的無人機其實可以有第二條的一個研發的一個機構所以我希望部長這邊能夠跟行政院反映我們來籌組一個無人載具的研發中心來開發這種商規的無人機的應用"},{"start":11011.61,"end":11014.493,"text":"這也有助於我們減輕我們中科院的負荷您同不同意"},{"start":11015.276,"end":11043.107,"text":"所以我跟委員報告其實你講說飛彈我們民間沒有事實上中科院在生產這個飛彈的過程當中也跟民間有很多非常的合作民間沒有人在用飛彈啊台積電不會拿飛彈來打因為您講的是一個最後系統或者是一個裝備的成品但我們看的不是這樣子而是看的是一個生態鏈的一個建構那這個飛彈的部分現在當然就是說你最後火工部門還是要交到這個中科院的生產"},{"start":11043.527,"end":11061.54,"text":"中間現在有一些關鍵技術也要釋放給民間,讓民間也能夠做所以無人機部分當然是裡面的重要的一環,因為逐漸的無人機的發展是相當的日循日益所以這個部分除了火工部門之外,其他一些特別關鍵的元件,這個部分當然要建立在民間嘛"},{"start":11061.86,"end":11080.635,"text":"所以我們從中國的例子就是因為無人機大疆全國世界的無人機市場大疆佔了絕大部分所以大疆的在初期戰爭被大量來改裝表示什麼商用的商規的都很好用所以呢有民間強大的製造產能我們軍方要使用就選擇餘地很多我的意見就是說要有民間的產能不是啦關鍵就在關鍵元件啦譬如說電池譬如說這些其實您說的關鍵電池馬達這個我們的載體的部分都OK"},{"start":11090.462,"end":11117.421,"text":"其實籌載的部分比較傷腦筋籌載的光電球傳輸的晶片通訊的晶片這些訊號的防害這個都是問題那是軍規的部分沒有沒有現在就是說你先用商規的部分來進行那軍規的部分呢我們會也失望一定的量人好那最後呢到了一定的時候我們再擴充我想這個部分就可以來建構了好啦因為主委已經站起來往上一列最後那個其實為什麼要一個研發中心往上就是所謂的通信協定"},{"start":11118.778,"end":11131.046,"text":"產品的規格標準這些東西才是需要一個研發中心的最後兩個訴求建於無人載具及我們戰法的進步迅速請針對推動成立明天智庫 阻擇無人載具的國土防衛來提出評估報告這就提報告而已喔"},{"start":11134.588,"end":11162.555,"text":"另外呢就以擴大採購無人機的訓練服務並且整合促成一個研發中心也請你們提個報告來評估一下可以嗎跟委員報告事實上這個行政院已經在主責了那很好啊你們就把行政院主責的內容可不可以分享一份給我們看對如果您需要的話因為這是由副院長在主責的部分是如果您想要了解的話就我們就將相關我們有參與的部分是行政院整個在主責就跟行政院索取那就國防部提供"},{"start":11162.995,"end":11176.101,"text":"是 好 謝謝也謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝嘉賓委員 這個部長請回接下來有請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在接下來有請翁曉琳委員上台質詢有請部長"},{"start":11191.175,"end":11193.156,"text":"還有通信電子資訊參謀次長以及資通電軍指揮部的參謀長周少將應該是周少將好"},{"start":11217.666,"end":11221.427,"text":"部長好 那麼我在這個剛剛在準備質詢稿的過程當中呢就看到國台辦其實剛剛又發布了一個新聞他們再度強調他們會對於台灣的自通電軍祭出三項懲戒強調絕不輕重我想部長你應該很清楚知道在前陣子"},{"start":11243.915,"end":11249.319,"text":"中共他們這裡有發布針對我們臺灣的資通電軍的人員有20位發布了這個懸賞通告 懸賞公告那麼我想其實這一段時間裡面那麼可以知道就是大陸基本上他們針對我們現在資通電軍裡面的一些情資是掌握的"},{"start":11268.792,"end":11288.611,"text":"那麼不僅他們有立案 從去年 當時他們就有立案 要偵查三個人那麼在今年的時候呢 其實又陸陸續續公佈就是所謂的我們資通電軍的成員 他們的肖像姓名以及甚至身份證字號那麼在這裡呢 我想請問部長 你有閱讀過"},{"start":11293.085,"end":11309.559,"text":"這個大陸的國家電腦病毒應急處理中心所發布的皮膚漢素的這份報告嗎?呃,是不是請中間來說明一下?好。很好,呃,中間跟你們報告。這個部分報告內容我們有看過。"},{"start":11310.669,"end":11335.717,"text":"所以這個周首長您看過您看過這份報告在這個報告書當中所爐列的有關於資通電這個指揮部的相關的位置人員那麼以及這個這個首長他們基本上都有詳列身份的字號姓名以及這個相關的資訊就這個部分來說我們這份"},{"start":11340.816,"end":11341.959,"text":"裡面的資料是否屬實"},{"start":11344.605,"end":11372.504,"text":"我想在這個部分或許您方便作答的話您就答方便的話也無所謂我想我們在之前的委員都在過程當中已經說明了這個網路資料拼湊而來的我想我們沒有辦法來有任何進一步的評論那也跟委員做一個報告我們會案前功法相關的規定來建立這一個對於人員的相關的保護的機制好"},{"start":11372.984,"end":11395.186,"text":"那么在这份资料里面,因为他详载了有关于自通电军的指挥部等等的这些地点,那么还有就是我们现在的指挥官,在这份书里面有指挥官,这个参谋长,副参谋长等等,所以请问参谋长您看过这份报告书吗?"},{"start":11396.267,"end":11410.397,"text":"有看過,那這個資料目前所呈現的是舊的資料是,您知道您的大名也在裡面嗎?知道您有沒有感受到就是說,你會不會懷疑為什麼這份資料會洩漏出去?"},{"start":11411.457,"end":11437.29,"text":"就個人的研判是在相關的這個之前個人的臉書或是一般可能在同仁有可能退伍的求職網這些的資料您剛剛有提到譬如說像參謀長的部分我覺得這個是一個公開的一個資訊它並沒有因為有一些一定階層它是屬於公開的這個資訊所以"},{"start":11439.551,"end":11465.383,"text":"可是公開資訊應該不包括身份證字號吧出生年月日我想這些資訊其實是鉅細靡遺我跟部長報告就是我看到這份報告書之後我其實心裡面很擔心因為我覺得我們的國軍電修之通電軍裡面的這些夥伴們不管是軍職或是約聘僱人員他們的資訊"},{"start":11467.193,"end":11488.799,"text":"是公開的如果說裡面有些資訊可能是老舊的或是可能根本不存在沒有關係但是假設這些裡面有相當高程度是屬實的更何況已經看到了參謀長的您的個資都在裡面這真的讓我感到很驚訝的是我們這麼重要的這個"},{"start":11491.061,"end":11498.057,"text":"軍中的這樣的一個自動電軍的指揮部裡面怎麼可能會有這麼多的訊息會是外露"},{"start":11499.943,"end":11521.552,"text":"那我們也曉得其實從去年其實就有新聞有說當時國防部政風是讓情報員用本名申報財產當時也造成一些資料外洩那麼更早之前其實我們的健保資料也都有外洩那麼所以呢其實這些案子到目前為止都還沒有查到一個水落石出也不知道說這些資料從哪裡洩露的"},{"start":11524.033,"end":11543.169,"text":"所以有關於我們軍中人員的這個各自的保護本身是認為非常的重要那麼請問現在國防部對於相關的國防或情報資料尤其是對於人員各自外系有沒有什麼樣的防堵措施我想主要還是你們有沒有檢討"},{"start":11544.409,"end":11570.127,"text":"對我想我們外部各自的管控我們應該要繼續來加強那內部的這個黨制的稽查我們要加強然後相關的這一個保護的機制我們也要來進行好吧我聽了部長講我覺得那都是感覺還蠻空的我現在就回到法治層面來看依照情報工作法裡面的規定那麼資通電軍指揮部看起來應該是屬於我們這邊講的情報機關是吧"},{"start":11574.841,"end":11598.42,"text":"所以我們是屬於適同情報機關適同情報機關因為在你們主管國家情報事項範圍內我現在問的比較general就是說是那麼在這個資通電軍指揮部裡面是不是所有的人員都是適同情報人員還是說你們中間也是只有少部分的人還是屬於我們情報工作法裡面所規範的情報人員應該是限於那個"},{"start":11603.476,"end":11631.689,"text":"包委員這個部分是限於這個從事網路相關工作的同仁所以並不是所有的同仁那麼但是呢大家接下來看情報協助人員其實也是受到情報工作法裡面的規範那麼在這次因為我們有看到其實在這份報告書裡面這個皮膚漢書的報告書裡面他們也有揭露一些支持這個我們自動電機指揮部裡面的相關的公司"},{"start":11632.589,"end":11660.983,"text":"机关那就现在的这些被揭露的这些公司或是机关其实因为这也涉及到就是他们未来可能以后也很难在这个可能跟大陆做生意或者是说他们可能已经被威胁心生恐惧以后也不敢做国防部的生意了就是说有关于像这种长期支援支持国防部的这些公司"},{"start":11662.044,"end":11663.975,"text":"那麼我們有沒有一些什麼保護的措施"},{"start":11665.1,"end":11694.515,"text":"就除了我們講的人員之外來我們看一下這個下面這次在皮膚漢數裡面的報告裡面講台灣自通電軍支撐單位的情況包含神通、金城、序聊、登峰數位科技以至於中山科學研究院都在他們這份報告書裡面已經揭露的說這些都是支持台灣自通電軍的公司"},{"start":11694.895,"end":11710.85,"text":"我想這是屬於公開招標的一個範圍跟你報告一下這個部分這些公司都是我們公開招標針對一般一般沒有敏感機敏性的這些範疇領域的這些作業的公司"},{"start":11711.781,"end":11732.946,"text":"是但是因為他們現在已經被列入在可能會被大陸懲治的對象那麼我想基本上我們當然是希望能夠全力的支持我們台灣的資通電機指揮部然後以及保護所有的工作同仁那以及可能這個支持資通電機指揮部的相關資訊系統設備公司可是呢其實他們現在可能所受到的"},{"start":11741.728,"end":11764.525,"text":"潛在的損失還不知道因為已經被點名了就像我們現在看到的這些人員不管他們是不是有這批人但是萬一真的事後又有很多的個資被洩漏出去那麼對於這些個資洩漏出去我們在《現在情報工作法》裡面有沒有對於這些人員的個資洩漏有給予他們一定的損失補償"},{"start":11767.029,"end":11791.029,"text":"跟委員報告 我想您現在所提的都是中國對我們進行這樣的一個相關的心理戰來造成我們的一些希望來動搖我們的軍事時期我想我們還是會持續堅持這個我們應該有的這個努力來確保國家安全您這樣子一直在"},{"start":11792.63,"end":11813.402,"text":"我現在是說我希望這報告書裡面的都不是事實那我只是說從一個很基本的很general的角度來看這件事情因為在我們情報工作法裡面其實它的規範基本上可以分兩階段一個是前端的風險管理一個是後端的危機處理但是我們看一下第24條的規定"},{"start":11815.728,"end":11833.448,"text":"在我们第二十四条规定里面万一情报人员他的省的身份揭露或是在受工作受到伤有受伤失能死亡这里面给予的抚恤的补偿是指他们在境外发生这边没有涉及到就是说万一他们的个资泄露"},{"start":11834.571,"end":11862.011,"text":"的情況之下 如果是我們剛剛講資通電軍指揮部裡面相關人員他們也是同事情報人員但他們現在的個資可能有被洩露他們的隱私受到侵害那麼在我們現行法裡面有沒有什麼機制是可以去保護他們的或是給予他們一定的損失補償因為很可能這些人以後找不到工作"},{"start":11864.884,"end":11871.392,"text":"就是在現行制度上面我想請問蔡某長你們過去有研究相關的人員的保護嗎"},{"start":11872.791,"end":11900.334,"text":"我想相關的這個國軍在從事相關的機敏業務的時候都會有這個他們應該要理解我們要做一個風險的一個管控跟管理這是應該的那至於委員提到了這個勤工法的相關規定他必須是要治受傷失能或死亡嗎而且要在境外現在我們的問題不管在境外或境內都必須要治受傷失能或死亡啊"},{"start":11901.75,"end":11918.12,"text":"對所以我就說這就是現行規定看起來沒有辦法涵蓋到如果在境內因為涉及到個資的洩漏然後影響到他的行動自由隱私權這些問題我們現在的法律制度上面有沒有哪一塊是可以去"},{"start":11919.281,"end":11943.886,"text":"保護 或者是給予這些受到損害的情報人員 給他們一定的補償跟委員報告 我想這個個資的外洩所造成的情況也不是只有今天這宗電競這個案子所有國軍相關的 還有所有其他的人員都會有這樣子的一個狀況所以這個如果說你要認為要檢討的話 那應該要做通販性的檢討"},{"start":11946.827,"end":11960.297,"text":"所以國防部過去一直都沒有針對這個部分做通盤性檢討嗎?我想一般的如果說不涉及到情報工作的各自外線那可能他有另外一個比較簡單的處理方式可是這件事情很嚴重"},{"start":11961.28,"end":11989.553,"text":"因為它已經涉及到就是可能已經類似等同於情報業務情報工作的人員的各自外泄但是我們看起來我們現在沒有任何的法規可以處理然後更何況說我們現在講的情報協助情報工作人員它的範圍還只是限定在自然人但是不要忘記了我們現在看到很多的資通訊的設備公司等等都一一的被點名出來了"},{"start":11991.277,"end":12008.99,"text":"那他們所提供的服務所提供的這些會不會也是廣泛來說可能也是屬於協助情報工作那這些公司他們未來可能會受到的這個損失要由誰來承擔他們自己就吸收嗎"},{"start":12012.213,"end":12037.285,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們會依據情報公眾法的規定來採取一些身份隱匿跟掩護的相關措施那這個部分已經在建立應該就會盡快來完成來做這些相關的這個保護的隱匿跟掩護的這個機制好我最後再講一句話就是說我其實在看這份報告書的時候我真的是心裡面是真的非常擔心我們的這個"},{"start":12041.435,"end":12068.242,"text":"自通電軍指揮部裡面的這些人員們他們的安危那麼我本來也不願意相信說是裡面的可能一些內容是屬實的但是當我發現我們去看Google馬上Google這個相關的處所照片是一致的然後甚至今天也看到參謀長您的身份資料都在裡面對那我們國家到底給這些自通電軍弟兄們我們有沒有一個充足的保護"},{"start":12069.844,"end":12088.156,"text":"然後還有一些支援的公司也一一被點名出來那未來他們所受到的營業上這個相關的損失要由誰來來負負擔還是說這些公司他們就自行吸收了那最後呢因為剛剛部長講說你們有針對現在國軍的各自外洩有在進行研析了嗎或者是說我今天也希望就是國防部是不是可以兩個禮拜之內給我一份你們對於"},{"start":12101.605,"end":12120.551,"text":"這個確保這個國軍人員的各自外泄的防堵機制以及我剛剛講的針對這個在情報工作法裡面有關於這個情報人員的各自外泄到底是不是用情報工作法裡面的相關手勢補償如果沒有的話未來你們要怎麼檢討要怎麼樣提出相關的補償機制可以請部長兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告嗎"},{"start":12128.272,"end":12148.897,"text":"我們再請鍾建軍再跟委員聯絡好不好好 那我希望就是兩個禮拜之內因為這個應該你們之前早就都有study的這個議題那請兩個禮拜之內給我相關的報告好 謝謝謝謝溫委員那部長請回接下來我們有請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":12175.072,"end":12177.516,"text":"來 趙委員我們請部長我請部長 謝謝跟戰略規劃是市長請市長 謝謝好 陳委員好部長好"},{"start":12188.786,"end":12217.963,"text":"部長其實最近有很多外媒不斷地在針對我們的無人載具的配置跟我們的戰略目標來做討論我想請教一下因為我們現在不是只是為了中國有所以我們也要有中國有無人機中國有大型的無人機中國的海面上的無人載具具備垂直的發射飛彈的能力所以我們也要有應該不是這樣子的戰略吧"},{"start":12218.243,"end":12240.062,"text":"我們現在的作戰想定我們的戰略目標是什麼?我們的無人載具作戰的構想,我們的主要的戰略目標是什麼?我想我們無人機作戰的這個運用參考這個俄武戰爭的經驗的實力跟我想已經三軍部隊有在執行這個我們整個防衛作戰兵力結構調整的"},{"start":12241.687,"end":12250.387,"text":"一個計畫,那我們會建置無人機鑽的部隊部隊也會有無人機的配置,朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":12251.365,"end":12278.877,"text":"我剛剛講戰略目標是說是以防守為主來去拒止中國的登陸為主還是有主要是要用什麼樣的方式來去確保說我們不被登陸這樣是一個戰略目標那剛才部長你提到的是說我們會全面檢討全面努力這個不是戰略目標這沒有回答到我的問題我們是不是請這一個司長來簡單的回答一下我不認為我們應該要在這個地方回答這樣子你認為戰略它不應該"},{"start":12281.519,"end":12293.973,"text":"跟國民來去做透視的因為無人機的應用我認為應該是在作戰層級跟戰術層級是這樣子喔那所以說我們各國的這些將領在對無人機的戰略表達他們的看法的時候"},{"start":12295.595,"end":12311.813,"text":"因為戰略成績是一個我們整個全軍的這個防衛作戰的計畫來做一個整體的構想無人機的應用是屬於在這個整體的防衛構想之下在作戰成績跟戰術成績裡面的運用"},{"start":12314.403,"end":12336.624,"text":"OK好部長如果你覺得這樣子的回答有你滿意的話那我尊重你我們現在請這個市長我們的戰略的目標無人載具的戰略目標是什麼我剛剛已經回答了你回答什麼我回答了就是說無人機的運用是屬於作戰成績跟戰術成績啊你回答說你無人機的戰術執行那你一定要請站位司司長回答"},{"start":12340.054,"end":12358.355,"text":"我們整個無人機的運用都是在我們總統指導的從神賀祖多於巨子的這個概念之下來做運用那在我們整個規劃裡面他所使用的面向當然是很多但是因為我們引進無人機現在處於起步階段"},{"start":12359.056,"end":12375.142,"text":"所以就我們能夠獲得的部分我們會依照我們建軍規劃的期程納入後續兵力整建的項目同時也依照這些無人機的獲得配合參謀本部這邊來修正它未來整個作戰運用"},{"start":12376.596,"end":12399.698,"text":"好 謝謝市長我剛剛講那麼多就是說我們希望無人載具它能夠在假設有台海衝突的時候它要扮演怎麼樣的句子我們的目標是他們的登陸艦嗎我們的目標是防止他們的兩棲的這個進攻我們的這些可能登陸的地方嗎主要是做偵測嗎還是做更多的比方說我們可以投入更多的資源在我們的自殺型的無人艦"},{"start":12400.879,"end":12429.242,"text":"或者是這個無人機等等就是說我們大概有一個戰略上面的目標所以剛才市長你說從陳鶴祖等等的跟委員報告您講的這些都在我們的作戰計畫當中那我認為我們這些相關的作戰計畫的運用並不適宜在這個公開場合去討論我們對無人機的運用我們有跟你講說要把計畫來解開你的計畫對 但事實上無人機運用就屬於這個問題是所有外媒都會問我們的我們的目的是什麼 比方說在"},{"start":12430.884,"end":12448.88,"text":"烏克蘭的這些軍方他們在進入外美的時候他們說我們希望在黑海能夠拒止他們用不對稱的作戰的方式等等這些都是戰略上簡單簡單二要的跟大家講嘛所以我們的目的是說我們當然會藉無人機的部署的靈活戰術的彈性跟通訊中心等等這些特性來進行精準的攻擊來發揮不對稱的戰力嘛"},{"start":12451.974,"end":12477.837,"text":"我們來請教一下中科院的6月78號我們在蘇澳外海舉辦的水面無人載具關於新聞媒體我們有提到是比武大賽我想請教院長我們這次的為什麼我們要決定邀請的對象是什麼樣的方式去是公開的邀請所有能夠參與的人都來一起參與是公開邀請"},{"start":12478.237,"end":12506.338,"text":"公開邀請所以說是全面性就是讓只要具備資格的廠商就能夠來參加甚至是能夠來展示嗎是的包含了造船的還有通訊的還有控制軟體的透過這樣子的目的我們的中科院的這個比武大戰的目的是什麼是希望未來有更多的民間的產業能夠進入投資然後來去生產更多這樣子的無人艦這是說一個拋磚引玉的動作嗎我們的目的是什麼我們這一次的中科院的這個"},{"start":12506.778,"end":12527.874,"text":"這個目的應該分成兩個層面第一個層面是對我們自己還有工部門的人而言讓大家都了解整個無人載具技術進步到什麼樣的程度未來的潛能在哪裡第二個是對於這些廠商提供給他們一個展示個人研發成果或是自己食品技術的一個展示的舞台"},{"start":12528.459,"end":12545.909,"text":"但是院長我想請教一下就是我們的需求是不是要先把它開出去這樣子未來能夠來自民間產業可能不是這種中大型的這些企業它能夠有一個先配合我們的需求就是先有這一個我們要把這個supply請他們做出來我們要有底面才會有supply因為這個"},{"start":12546.829,"end":12566.963,"text":"無人載具在海面上面的這些部署其實很多是有軍用面向的所以如果我們的spec沒有我們的spec是開得很高或開得非常的困難的話或許我們會得到很優良的這些無人的船艦但是可能它的量就沒辦法達到我們的目的所以說我們的戰略的方向是說我們是要做聚職"},{"start":12567.703,"end":12584.676,"text":"是在海面上拒止還是做偵測還有各個不同的面向讓我們的產業才能夠有它足夠的scale就是一切嘛你沒有量的話你沒有辦法你只有值的話那當你一對五到第六個第七個的時候我們就沒有足夠的反制能力所以我想請教一下這個院長未來你的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":12585.316,"end":12598.068,"text":"是怎麼樣可以讓這個更多的中小企業能夠有機會來去參與類似這樣子的它不見得是要自己做出整建那它也不需要一個場域能夠來提供他們的這些重要的一些零組件體"},{"start":12599.296,"end":12614.816,"text":"這邊跟委員報告這次參加的廠商總共有9家國內的廠商4家國外的廠商總共13家參與那這13家他們都有現成的技術和成品為什麼剛剛我們要講我們第一個層面辦理的目的就是讓"},{"start":12616.238,"end":12644.486,"text":"我們採購的包含軍方還有工部門包含海巡啊經濟部內政部等等去了解到現在現有的產品已經到達什麼樣的程度他才能決定他要用什麼樣的規格去採購多大的數量我想這是一個有主有從的我們可能先了解工信能到達什麼樣的程度還有未來的潛能在哪裡然後我們再來決定預算要怎麼編列好 謝謝院長我們時間五分鐘已經到了 謝謝"},{"start":12651.903,"end":12664.477,"text":"好 謝謝關廷委員 部長請回接下來有請李昆城委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":12675.023,"end":12701.311,"text":"市立委員好部長好 辛苦了先請教一下就是今天的媒體有報導美國的國防部長赫格賽斯他在這個美國聯邦眾議院撥款委員會的國防小組裡面的這個聽證會他有特別提到說中國是美國步步進逼的威脅北京正在印太地區的戰爭中準備嚇阻中國是美國國防部在印太地區的首要任務"},{"start":12702.489,"end":12718.502,"text":"重點北京正在進行重大軍事擴張並積極演練入侵台灣那我請教一下部長美國國防部長這句話有新的含義嗎還是他只是把目前的這個事實把它呈示出來"},{"start":12719.497,"end":12735.744,"text":"美國部長在我看起來他就是呈現兩個意涵第一個當然就是說集體嚇阻的概念也就是說以實力來換取和平那麼如果能夠達成一個集體有效嚇阻的一個力量才能夠避免"},{"start":12736.644,"end":12757.982,"text":"硬態或他在情勢發生任何這一個既有的狀態就是說這個這個和平穩定的現況的維持那所以要用嚇阻的手段那這個嚇阻的手段呢是集體嚇阻這集體嚇阻當然裡面也包括了對我們的要求就是說要求我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力"},{"start":12758.961,"end":12776.532,"text":"那關於這個美國國防部長他所講的就是說北京正在進行重大軍事擴張積極演練入侵台灣那這個說法有進一步的的一個含義嗎那還是說跟過去他的說法是差不多的"},{"start":12778.068,"end":12793.56,"text":"我想我看他整個的全文看起來當然他在描述一個北京正在不斷的持續進行對台灣的軍事恫嚇然後另外的軍事擴張也就是跨過第一島鏈甚至到達第二島鏈這樣子的一個軍事擴張的一個"},{"start":12797.763,"end":12823.116,"text":"包括拒止外軍等等的這些這樣子的一個一個越來越大規模的這樣的一個演習那也許他有公開也許他沒有公開也許他有命名也許他沒有命名但是不管怎麼樣都可以看得出來他不斷的在從事更大規模的軍事的演習跟這個他的軍事的能力的投射這樣子好"},{"start":12823.456,"end":12847.402,"text":"因為他的這個參謀首長聯席會主席同樣以書面的聲明表示說這些軍事活動中國的軍事活動是針對台灣規模它的範圍規模複雜性還有頻率都日益增長那這些挑釁的動作呢並非例行的演習是為武統而進行的演練那是不是說美方這邊也擔憂這個中國有可能隨時由嚴轉戰"},{"start":12852.463,"end":12874.213,"text":"由訓轉站的這個可能性由訓轉也由原轉站或者是直接由訓轉站這個都是我們持續密駐的一個範圍因為我們現在觀察到中國不斷地在台海周邊從事這些有預警式的或者非預警式的這個演習"},{"start":12875.053,"end":12887.885,"text":"那這些演習也逐步的這個相關的規模也逐步的擴大所以我們對於這個部分的本於料底重寬的原則我們都要來加以這個掌握並且來加以因應這樣子"},{"start":12889.482,"end":12904.777,"text":"那因為今天是這個我們這個海空戰力提升計畫這個特別預算的一個報告那這個特別預算是從111年到115年那當初呢它是依照聯合反制整體防空海上節節的作戰需求編列了"},{"start":12907.499,"end":12923.894,"text":"2369億5000萬左右那其中呢有八類十項的專案那其中有一項是屬於這個無人攻擊載具那當然我想請教部長就是說因為這個是110年通過的這個特別條例跟運算那接下來呢接下來這五年都在做這些運算的執行但是呢"},{"start":12926.237,"end":12937.053,"text":"時間已經在改變了就是說我們在四年前五年前所訂的這個專案到現在為止部長有沒有認為說要做調整的地方您是說無人載具的部分嗎"},{"start":12937.742,"end":12962.609,"text":"我覺得就整個這個特別預算的部分因為我有看啦就是說我們當然那時候的111年的這個計畫5年的計畫或許無人機載具它不是一個特別的一個重點它只是其中的一個類象但是呢這個時間不斷的轉移嘛那現在有關於這個無人機這個無人攻擊載具不管是無人機或是無人機"},{"start":12963.309,"end":12992.17,"text":"無人這個潛艦它可能越來越重要了所以我是想請教部長就是說接下來我們的這個計畫還是按照這個原定的計畫那還是說會特別加強有關無人攻擊載具這部分第一個跟委員報告第一個當然就是說我們的下半年會提出的特別預算主要就是在不對稱戰力還有這個防衛韌性的這一塊那就這個部分無人載具當然是裡面重要的一環你說下半年的特別預算是對"},{"start":12993.31,"end":13016.813,"text":"對,所以無人載具是我們一個裡面相當重要的一個預換你說今年下半年會提出特別預算?今年下半年會提出特別預算,那其中會涵蓋無人載具的部分那無人載具,因為之前這個你說是指4100億這個預算?不是,下半年還沒有提出的下半年一個特別的預算?對那個特別預算是什麼樣的特別預算?"},{"start":13017.861,"end":13037.031,"text":"特別預算也就是說剛剛已經講了我們還是在不對稱戰力跟防衛任性的建構這些關鍵的戰力的形成那其中不對不對稱戰力的部分呢那當然有包括相關的這些無人載具包括無人機還有也可能會拉入無人艇這樣子"},{"start":13037.631,"end":13064.384,"text":"所以下半年度我們所提出的特別預算就是以無人的供給載具為主就對了應該不止吧我們像包括我們相關的這些反建的或者是我們應該就是說不電站立它有一個基本的共同定義就是要機動存貨力高致命然後低成本所以我想我們會按照這個方面來做一個規劃然後呢來建構我們足夠所需要的這個量能那"},{"start":13065.205,"end":13086.787,"text":"這個部分整個是在我們的這個海空戰力特別提升計畫以後之後那我們會繼續的來強化我們不對稱戰力跟這個防衛人形的建構這個當然也有包括一些像指管的系統等等或者是其他的一些相關的一個措施"},{"start":13087.948,"end":13104.746,"text":"這個部分我們現在還在整個在做檢討那檢討完之後我們下半年會提出來跟委員做一個詳盡的報告那預算規模大概多少我跟委員報告因為我們現在還沒有最後的定案是不是容我能夠稍微保留一下"},{"start":13105.56,"end":13130.715,"text":"那表示就是說我們整個方向會轉成說這一個不對陣戰爭裡面那尤其是包含這個無人攻擊載具應該是說我們一直在朝向不對陣關鍵戰力的建構那因為像剛剛陳委員也提到了這一個無人載具的這個部分那我只是在說明不管是機動的這個反艦機動的防空那麼還有"},{"start":13133.616,"end":13148.523,"text":"這個以外呢 我們無人載具的部分 基於它現在的這個成為從二五戰爭也好 從各國現在這個無人載具發展的進程來看的話我想我們也會把它納入 成為我們的特別預算的項目之一"},{"start":13150.824,"end":13175.097,"text":"那7月份的這個漢光演習的話 那會不會特別因應就是說不管我們自己認為說這個中國在由延轉 由迅轉戰的這方面的這個企圖心是越來越強那或是包含這個美國國防部長我剛才所提到的 他們認為說這個現在中國就是這個為了要武統台灣做準備 那漢光演習這部分有做什麼樣的一個因應嗎"},{"start":13176.197,"end":13188.527,"text":"我們漢光演習現在延長為十天,九夜所以我們從灰色地帶的運出一直到加強戒備然後一直到應急作戰"},{"start":13191.638,"end":13215.714,"text":"就有關於灰色地帶的這個硬組就是有關於它有可能由迅轉眼、由遠轉戰這個項目我們要根據相關的徵喉來做一個判斷然後來不管我們在之前的兵推或以後的這個漢光的實兵驗證我們都會來加以來應該說是一個很務實的來訓練然後根據這一些驗證的結果不斷的進行修調這樣"},{"start":13221.309,"end":13236.654,"text":"所以這次漢光演習的重點就是以防範因應中國過去地帶的侵略為主那你就從什麼全面入侵開始我們現在是拉到更前面就是從灰色地帶的硬主那灰色地帶的硬主就是他現在"},{"start":13237.694,"end":13247.358,"text":"常常在進行的一種他以訓練的名義演習的名義可是他的規模越來越大的情況之下那我們怎麼判斷這個關鍵的徵喉然後來進行後續我們所應對像我們現在相關的這一些這個立即備戰操演"},{"start":13255.521,"end":13268.515,"text":"其實目的也就是在訓練我們的能力也就是說你不可以輕忽他的灰色地帶的洗澡認為他是不是一定會一直停在灰色地帶的洗澡我們要持續的密切關注相關的預警徵候這樣子好 OK 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":13273.702,"end":13302.962,"text":"好 謝謝昆城委員部長請回接下來我們有請蔡易瑜委員上台質詢蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在那已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束那本日會有黃文委員跟徐巧興委員提出書面質詢請列入公報並勘定在公報那有書面口頭質詢未及答覆的部分在請以國防部請以書面答覆"},{"start":13303.782,"end":13322.183,"text":"那這個接下來我們來進行討論事項討論事項有兩個討論事項有兩個一個是今天有專案報告的那一個另外一個是其他的凍結案40案那我們今天我們是三次一次會就是要來處理這一些解凍案那我們先來看討論事項第一項"},{"start":13323.524,"end":13350.99,"text":"我們先來處理國防部主管預算凍結提出專案報告並經同意後使得凍之案國防部剛剛有做出專案報告這剛剛大家已經有聽了這個跟性平相關的請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意好 同意那我們同意凍之然後提報院會這畢竟是一個專案報告所以我們這個還是非常"},{"start":13352.912,"end":13376.926,"text":"這個希望這個提案的委員能夠來看一下這個報告的內容不然我們花了這個一整個早上來做這個專案那好但沒關係這個剛剛已經這個結束了今天這個我們國民黨本委今天只來來質詢只有一位而且現在在場是沒有國民黨的委員所以這個好"},{"start":13388.011,"end":13409.081,"text":"這個實在是我們這個研會然後要處理這些案子然後但是我們之前大家花了那麼多時間然後來做這些凍結跟討論那在解凍的時候其實是還是很希望這至少今天排的也是至少是國民黨非常關心的特別預算但是我們的本委只有一位他現在都不在"},{"start":13410.598,"end":13418.331,"text":"好 那我們來處理討論事項第二項處理國防部主管預算凍結案中提出書面報告並且統一後 使得凍值共40案"},{"start":13420.195,"end":13444.083,"text":"國防部已將書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍?同意這感覺真的都是我們在擦屁股而已這感覺真的是很差那均同意動之我們就提報院會但我們還是有很多甚至我記得113年是不是還有六案113年還有六案對不對是不是所以我們還是有一堆解凍案還是要繼續來"},{"start":13445.283,"end":13473.098,"text":"來做 那我們是很希望這個盡快我們就是 延會就是本來他就應該要早一點處理 但我們已經三月多才通過這一個總預算那這個時間就非常的緊迫 那現在要延會那看起來大家這個不管是法案還是解凍這個國民黨參與的程度還是有點低啦 那我作為主席還是我覺得還是要把這件事情講一下好 那本日議程所列事項均已處理完畢那因為六月十一跟六月十二兩日一次會 那我們現在散會"},{"start":13478.302,"end":13480.903,"text":"這是徐曉新提的耶我知道 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那我們今天的議程是繼續審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案"},{"start":1897.642,"end":1913.308,"text":"包括委員葛如君等37人委員邱若驊等17人委員羅廷惟等17人委員萬美玲等18人委員徐宇貞等20人委員張家俊等21人委員林倩琦等21人你去人工智慧基本法草案"},{"start":1914.048,"end":1923.462,"text":"那也審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案呢包括委員邱怡穎等20人委員吳宗憲等17人委員賴世寶等28人委員楊瓊英等26人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1930.091,"end":1958.862,"text":"以及委員許智協等27人委員林一錦等27人擬據人工智慧基本法草案台灣民眾黨黨團擬據的是人工智慧發展及管理條例草案一案首先再介紹在場委員柯志恩委員羅廷偉委員林一錦召委尹秀寶委員"},{"start":1961.769,"end":1975.367,"text":"郭玉琴委員范雲委員劉書斌委員謝榮介委員那我們其次介紹與會官員"},{"start":1978.135,"end":2004.102,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文主委謝謝吳主委副主任委員陳秉宇副主委謝謝副主委數位發展部部長黃燕南部長黃部長謝謝部長我們教育也有教育部資訊及科技教育師師長吳穎田師長謝謝行政院教育科學文化處參議謝聖龍參議"},{"start":2007.06,"end":2018.35,"text":"財政部複稅署專門委員劉旭峰專委法務部汪南軍參事經濟部產業技術師專門委員張明芳專委謝謝勞動部綜合規劃師專門委員林永裕專委勞動條件及就業平等師專委侯松炎專委勞動法務司專門委員林家士專委"},{"start":2034.271,"end":2038.584,"text":"勞動關係師也有多位同仁出席文化部綜合規劃師副司長陳怡靜"},{"start":2041.141,"end":2056.248,"text":"副市長謝謝行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員陳怡君陳專委行政院人事行政總處主編人力處專門委員張雅慧專委謝謝個人資料保護委員會籌備處隱私科技組組長林益成林組長謝謝考選部參研室研究委員黃立賢謝謝考選部綜合計畫師專門委員黃于儒專委"},{"start":2070.475,"end":2075.497,"text":"考選部高樸考試司專門委員楊文怡專委 謝謝權敘部法規司專門委員黃家惠專委 謝謝行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員吳明修專委"},{"start":2086.291,"end":2106.02,"text":"那也非常感謝可以見得我們今天人工智慧基本法草案橫跨的範圍以及AI會影響的範圍非常的廣也非常感謝我們的行政單位各處是機關的同仁還有這個主管還有相關的官員來列席那我們也介紹我們的張雅玲委員還有徐宇貞委員洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2119.997,"end":2132.59,"text":"那我們本日不處理臨時提案因為我們今天提案數非常的多那我們本案已於114年5月14日詢答完畢那有新增新增不好意思"},{"start":2134.383,"end":2153.671,"text":"抱歉新增委員邱益穎等七個提案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同審查那我們現在審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案進行逐條審查請議事人員宣讀條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":2162.406,"end":2183.515,"text":"委員葛如君等三十七人委員邱若驊等十七人委員羅廷華等十七人委員魏美玲等十八人委員徐宇臻等二十人委員張家俊等二十一人委員林佳琦等二十三人委員邱盈盈等二十人委員吳宗憲等十七人委員賴中寶等二十八人委員楊承英等二十六人"},{"start":2183.955,"end":2196.157,"text":"委員許智傑等27人委員林依謙等26人女巨人工智慧基本法草案台灣民眾黨黨團女巨人工智慧發展及管理條例等現在條文都照表"},{"start":2199.13,"end":2222.922,"text":"委員內事保黨28人提案第一張總則台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一張總則委員葛樂軍等37人提案為建設為建設出國家促進人工智慧研發與人工智慧產業發展新建國人工智慧安全應用環境努使數位平權保障人民基本權利"},{"start":2223.848,"end":2229.352,"text":"非常感謝我們今天有教育文化委員會的委員也有交通文化交通委員會的委員那我們也有內政部內政委員會的委員我們這個"},{"start":2249.228,"end":2266.648,"text":"這個法案呢大家真的是非常的期待我們公聽會的時候呢也各界也都希望我們能夠早一點有人工智慧的相關的方針那我們就先針對法案名稱做主條我們從法案名稱來做討論好法案名稱主席不好意思"},{"start":2268.873,"end":2289.041,"text":"我是想說是不是先來廣泛討論好不好先進行廣泛討論我覺得這部分不需要廣泛討論因為這個人工基本法已經有公聽會然後我們已經審了也都做過答詢了我不曉得廣泛還要廣泛討論些什麼我覺得就進入這些逐條的一個方式了"},{"start":2289.341,"end":2304.509,"text":"因為我們這個不是臨時的這很久就以來我們已經經過了多少次的質詢經過多少次的一個公聽我想大家都有個共識而且最重要是這麼多委員都有不同的一個版本我個人認為與其與其這個廣泛討論呢"},{"start":2306.69,"end":2329.723,"text":"我現在真的到至今為止我沒有看到術法部提出任何的這些的意見或者是任何的一個想法反而是我所看到的是國科會過去以來所擬定的這些的一個草案所以說呢再浩下去的話我真的覺得有愧於這個不管是左內閣或是賴總統對於我們AI這麼樣的一個重視所以大體討論已經是在質詢的時候都已經"},{"start":2335.906,"end":2340.352,"text":"問過了 而且問過這個組委了所以我個人建議是應該就直接進入我們組條的討論了"},{"start":2344.125,"end":2371.819,"text":"主席不好意思喔因為基本上是目前我們今天排審可是沒有院版那所以沒有院版的話那我覺得可能每個委員對於今天沒有院版的審查可能會有比較相對不同的意見那所以我覺得對於今天要不要審就是要進入那個審查人工基本智慧法的這個過程裡頭我覺得還是需要讓大家廣泛討論然後"},{"start":2373.56,"end":2394.119,"text":"說出對於審這個法的一些看法那我覺得因為這個程序其實我覺得也某程度也是可以必要存在那而且我覺得也不只應該是也不只我的主張啊不然也看看問他其他委員的意見那我想說也請主席參採我的意見說讓我們先廣泛討論一下好 張艾玲委員 謝謝"},{"start":2397.062,"end":2426.029,"text":"好 我也希望可以來進行這個大體討論喔最主要是因為說其實我們有收到相當多兒少團體對於這一部法包含我之前在質詢的時候一直都非常關心私底下一直不停地找大家來討論就是大家對於這個法目前對於未成年兒少的相對的保護而且我們過去政府到底有沒有做一些相關的研究其實大家是有相當多的質疑所以我希望在今天可以有個大體討論的時候我們可以再精確的去了解那我們的部會是不是也可以再多做一點說明讓我們的這些相關兒少團體可以更安心"},{"start":2427.829,"end":2446.994,"text":"好 劉書斌委員然後再來洪孟凱委員 范雲委員 謝謝好 謝謝主席關於人工智慧的相關法令它的確已經是我雖然是大概三月才進來但是我已經看到的是說至少我們在公聽會還有包括的是其他的相關會議當中包括連交通委員會都已經審查了很多次"},{"start":2447.674,"end":2465.778,"text":"那這個地方但是我也覺得說也許在大體討論也許不用大體討論但是可以先請主管機關來說明它為什麼沒有一個願版的這個地方但是我們知道在國科會它事實上有它的一個不版出來這個原因大概說字一下也許就可以大概這樣說把這個流程還包括"},{"start":2465.998,"end":2466.198,"text":"好 謝謝范議員 謝謝"},{"start":2488.624,"end":2506.229,"text":"黃孟愷委員不好意思大家都已經發言了其實這不就也是廣泛討論的一環嗎我們現在在討論是廣泛討論要不要廣泛討論不覺得很奇怪嗎其實我覺得態度很明確啦14個委員都有版本"},{"start":2506.989,"end":2524.52,"text":"我們從2024年2月1號進入到立法院教育委員會的時候那時候就已經講說人工智慧基本法人工智慧是未來的趨勢現在進行是還不知道未來趨勢現在人工智慧已經在我們的各行各業了嘛那2024年2月1號那個時候我們才看到歐盟剛剛"},{"start":2525.781,"end":2549.911,"text":"創立這樣的一個相關法令我們也想是說台灣應該後發先至台灣應該我們是科技王國啊所以照理講我們也應該要並駕齊驅啊但是過了一年半了三個會期了現在等於是三個會期的第三會期的尾端還沒有出來我們自己的院版14個委員都有版本啊那我們現在其實要問的是行政院什麼時候有版本出來嗎那今天速發布"},{"start":2551.465,"end":2567.431,"text":"給我們的書面報告裡面還是把過去的歷史嚴格脈絡再講一次啊但最重要的是速發部現在你被行政院指定為主管機關那你們什麼時候會把版本拿出來這才是重點啊"},{"start":2568.553,"end":2597.285,"text":"所以如果說我們14個委員不分藍綠草野喔藍白綠都有委員都有版本喔所以這不是單一委員這不是在野黨委員的意見這也不是執行黨委員的意見是三黨的共識都有黨團版都有委員版那如果說這樣的情況下速發部身為主管機關都還不願意把版本拿出來那這樣子我們要怎麼審我們可以等一個會期可以等兩個會期但是現在三個會期等了"},{"start":2598.424,"end":2617.82,"text":"那我們還要等多久速發部是不是等一下部長你也明確的講什麼時候院版可以出來那我們現在可以今天先做主條我們討論 討論完之後有爭議的地方可以先做保留但是等速發部院的版本一起出來朝野協商的時候可以再共同討論啊"},{"start":2618.661,"end":2644.408,"text":"但如果說你速發部一樣這樣的態度的話你連最基本的待時間都不願意告訴我們的話那這樣國人沒有辦法無止盡的等下去啊AI是一步千里每天都有不同的科技變化運用現在只是基本法基本法通過之後才會有各行各業的相對應用法那如果我們連基本法都搞不定的話我們怎麼樣告訴國人是說我們是重視AI的不要忘記這個內閣叫做AI內閣"},{"start":2647.15,"end":2647.53,"text":"這個內閣叫做AI內閣"},{"start":2649.551,"end":2678.639,"text":"好不好 語重心長今天是藍綠白委員都希望有一部人工智慧基本法那什麼時候行政部門拿出院版 謝謝好 謝謝我們請范瑩委員 謝謝我想大家都非常的重視AI相關的規範跟發展那我上一屆在立法院也有成立一個數位的委員會那就是在關注那後來速發部成立之後那我的關注就是在監督教育這個部分"},{"start":2679.119,"end":2700.817,"text":"那林一金委員跟我我們在做國會外交的時候還特別去就是AI的教育做得很好的愛沙尼亞考察他怎麼樣從小學開始那教育部其實也在做相關的努力所以不是沒有一個基本法相關部會就沒有在做事那我想一金委員希望大體討論那跟我的想法很相近因為有幾個事情我們要釐清"},{"start":2701.698,"end":2721.713,"text":"第一個就是目前你看到委員的版本有人的主管機關寫速發布那這有包含國民黨的委員那國民黨委員自己也有人的主管機關寫國科會所以到底大方向上這件事情應該是速發布跟國科會那這個東西還沒有釐清第二個"},{"start":2722.353,"end":2741.036,"text":"我想最大的AI這個部分要不要有基本法的比較大的爭議就是在於說目前我們看到的方向有兩個完全不同的方向歐盟的方向還是美國的方向美國的方向是重產業發展希望監管密度低歐盟的方向是希望監管密度高"},{"start":2741.997,"end":2765.541,"text":"可是如果以歐盟為例的話美國還曾經規定就是說他在上次的預算審查就是各州不得立法因為他擔心規範不一引起產業的困境那歐盟他當時是要2025年2026年開始實行的時候就因為現在很多產業發現發展不一可能在競爭上會輸給像中國這種威權國家"},{"start":2768.442,"end":2795.14,"text":"所以產業希望部分的法規延後再實行而且歐盟也沒有辦法把相關的技術指引因為這個東西只是一個母法生產出來因為AI的環境變化太大了所以我想各位如果有看到最近的新聞的話英國現在就主張他要暫緩就是立這個法那希望能夠觀望情勢那我不知道我們這方面"},{"start":2795.66,"end":2820.92,"text":"就是說要做得比英國快然後要遇到就是說歐盟現在的困境還是我們相關的準備都好了那我至少知道行政院的各部會譬如說國科會有在做相關的研究教育部已經在做相關的部分那速發部是不是也有在做相關的大家希望要有的就是說基本的監管像我跟那個張雅琳委員一樣就是說我很關心的是"},{"start":2821.621,"end":2836.27,"text":"就是除了兒少之外跟婦女數位就是說相關的性別暴力跟歧視的部分那都有在相關的地方就是說就是監督那如果有這個基本法我們也會把相關的條文放入那但是我覺得就是"},{"start":2837.17,"end":2864.221,"text":"如果這個情勢就是速發部應該要對國際的情勢要有所掌握也希望能夠說明一下那到底就是這個情勢發展如何我們要走的是美國模式還有歐盟模式那歐盟跟英國現在遇到困境那我們應該要怎麼找台灣的方向那我想這個大體討論這幾個議題都必須要釐清否則我們進入到條文之後等一下也馬上主管機關就會遇到障礙嘛"},{"start":2864.941,"end":2880.901,"text":"然後你每一條都會爭辯的是一樣這個大方向的問題那最重要是說在這個時候就要定下去會不會對台灣的環境反而不利那美國他想要跟中國競爭那我們台灣的話其實到底要往哪個方向走我想這個部分都是大力討論應該要討論的 謝謝"},{"start":2882.423,"end":2895.667,"text":"好 謝謝 呃 李坤澄委員 然後待會陳秀寶委員 郭育群委員好像有舉手 郭育群委員然後 呃 李坤澄 對不起 不好意思李坤澄比較帥李坤澄委員 不好意思對對對 比較帥好 謝謝 都很帥"},{"start":2902.529,"end":2921.506,"text":"我是建議全案保留 因為我看各黨團以及委員之間雖然提案很多 但是方向都不太一致最主要是缺乏整體的政策的一個架構跟相關的責任劃分的一個共識沒有辦法形成"},{"start":2924.447,"end":2946.713,"text":"我先從主管機關這個設計來看啦這個大家都有明顯的這個歧義啦那葛如君委員 趙偉啊認為提案應該這個是博科會來作為主管機關但是我看國民黨楊瓊英委員 賴士寶這兩位資深委員啊他們主張是應該要數位發展部"},{"start":2947.293,"end":2962.315,"text":"那基本法是否要設主管機關 其實當然是可以討論的啦不過我看國民黨內部就有不同的意見那連主管機關的這樣的一個想法不同我們要怎麼去實質討論"},{"start":2963.777,"end":2991.335,"text":"那我是認為未來AI基本法到了實施階段一定會碰到很多的應用層面的問題那這個應該要由數位部來主政來處理相關爭議性的這些問題那處理爭議性的問題還有產業的發展那我認為國科會他只是主要負責相關的AI科學研究"},{"start":2992.476,"end":3016.323,"text":"國科會比較屬於智庫的一個性質真正要執行AI的基本法顯然是量能不足啦那其實我看同一政黨委員間也對主管機關沒有一致的共識所以我再次的建議全案是應該保留以上好 謝謝"},{"start":3023.365,"end":3035.959,"text":"其實今天有這麼多的委員提案就表示說大家都非常關心我們這整個AI未來的走向未來的發展但是其實現在目前世界各國對AI立法有相當大的歧見"},{"start":3036.98,"end":3053.272,"text":"尤其是最新的國際狀況是說英國為了觀察美國AI的政策走向它已經延後推動AI監管法案那本席在上次詢問的時候有提到美國對於原本歐盟以監管為方向的AI法規有提出批評認為這是限制AI的科技發展"},{"start":3054.053,"end":3078.573,"text":"所以說歐盟現在也已經延緩部分條文的實施這就是目前現實的狀況那我們既然我們要制定一個這樣子的基本法我們更應該要掌握目前國際間的局勢那以目前來講美國是有傾向發展市場的發展他們為了強化對中國的競爭力所以在這一塊呢他們是沒有幾乎是沒有限制但英國選擇是關懷美國避免他的政策落後"},{"start":3079.053,"end":3103.689,"text":"那歐盟這邊是維持現規制定者的這個角色但是在執行上呢不得不面對AI發展及國際的壓力這些轉變我們都應該納入我國這個AI基本法的考量的範疇那如果說我們就這樣子目前我們速發這邊也很嚴謹的想要就是說去長你一步比較全面比較周到的是這個相關的這些"},{"start":3104.729,"end":3120.825,"text":"基本法所以它還沒有嚴厲出來之前我們就我們現在這樣子的情況之下就要來討論我會覺得說是有點倉促而且到底AI基本法它需要嚴謹的去規範會不會變成是劃地制限"},{"start":3121.305,"end":3146.295,"text":"那太寬鬆的只有一個框架會不會這個保護的力道又不夠,不夠周延而且我要呼應一下剛才坤澤委員所講的主管機關如果行政院認為是應該在速發部比較合適那我們應該尊重行政院國科會這邊組織的是我國的這個基礎科研投入這些相關的資源就是發展各項科技的先期研究包括像半導體、人工智慧、太空科技等等"},{"start":3147.716,"end":3173.473,"text":"人工智慧基本法除了涉及科研之外還有產業的發展跟輔導資料的監管以及人工智慧產業的相關的風險的規範這些都需要跟產業接觸比較密切的速發部作為主管機關比較適合所以希望說我們今天對於AN基本法我們可以用更嚴謹的態度我們再來好好的討論能夠讓整個法規可以更全面以上"},{"start":3179.176,"end":3202.482,"text":"我想大家應該都知道這個從新聞上面已經看到就是美國的AI的政策走向尤其是在川普政府的他的政策走向其實當然也是全世界在觀察這個AI的走向的一個觀察的重點所以光是英國他們就已經確定要延後推動這個AI的監管的法案而且至少時程是延後一年以上"},{"start":3203.402,"end":3232.457,"text":"那我想我們這麼急促的要來通過這個AI的基本法其實光是主管機關主管機關的部分其實我看到很多的版本剛剛不只有速發部然後國科會那另外其實國科會我記得這個主委其實也之前也特別強調那你們是比較注重這個科研的部分其實在於速發部它其實是跟最後的一些產業還有一些所謂的這個辦理作業跟後續的一個條文的解釋其實是速發部應該是比較有彈性也比較適合"},{"start":3233.437,"end":3261.42,"text":"這我想這個應該國會的主委應該也同意啦但是我還看到這個其他的國民黨的版本或民眾黨的版本他們也有人說好像認為很中性的要有行政院來擔任這個中央的主管機關這看似很中性啦但是沒有一個配套跟一個執行的平台我個人認為這個光是主管機關要搞定是哪一個部會就已經有問題了我不知道為什麼今天要這麼急著要進入這個主條的部分那另外呢像是我們的AI"},{"start":3262.2,"end":3290.377,"text":"台灣的AI目前還是處於所謂的這個初期啦那我想這個資訊的治理其實也不容許有任何的一個模糊的空間那尤其是在現在這個中國對於我們台灣這個是無孔不入包含整個所有的這個AI國安的風險那我想在這個我們的條文當中其實也沒有特別針對這一塊來做一個審查的一個機制的一個就是描寫所以這個部分我個人認為今天如果進入主條會太過倉促啦"},{"start":3291.377,"end":3293.02,"text":"所以以上是我的意見"},{"start":3306.922,"end":3335.14,"text":"好 謝謝主席我個人在質詢的時候其實我對這個AI人工智慧基本法也是有期待的特別是在現在大家都在運用AI但是對一些少數民族弱勢的群體來講其實AI會創造很多的一個歧視那在全世界各國也都有這樣的先例所以有一個法能夠來管制約束是好的"},{"start":3335.74,"end":3363.494,"text":"但是呢縱觀我們看到的現在這些版本我覺得歧異性非常的大光是從大家所討論的主管機關那有人覺得國科會也有人覺得應該速發布那甚至也有覺得說不需要訂定主管機關那實際上像基本法因為它就是一個宣示性的一個法也不是組織法那當然"},{"start":3364.514,"end":3378.161,"text":"以我們原民會來講原住民來講有一個原基法那原基法的話它就是沒有定主管機關是以行政院或各縣市政府就是有一個推動的委員會那到底我們這個叫基本法"},{"start":3382.503,"end":3401.756,"text":"那他的體力應該要長怎麼樣我想這個部分可能有很多專業討論的一個空間那另外就是關於AI的定義那我個人也看了之後也是覺得因為AI的定義目前他也是需要被審慎"},{"start":3403.838,"end":3424.897,"text":"來討論因為全世界各國而且它是一個不斷在長大的定義所以我覺得這種部分可能都還有很多需要討論的空間所以我個人在這個地方也就是表達說希望能夠再爭取更多的討論希望保留的部分能夠先暫緩謝謝"},{"start":3427.099,"end":3445.361,"text":"好謝謝吳立華委員我們請吳佩儀委員關於AIA基本法我們在委員會其實討論很多次那我如果印象沒有記錯的話因為去年差不多這個時間應該是國科會就告訴我們說這個要抱怨了"},{"start":3446.082,"end":3470.621,"text":"對 所以為什麼今天桌上沒有院版其實我也是有同樣的困惑那我想也需要這個國科會跟訴發部也要好好的對大家來說明但是今天因為我仔細看了一下我們總共14個版本嘛那其中有13個版本包含昭偉跟盧君委員的版本都是基本法但是民眾黨黨團的版本看起來比較像是監管的作用法"},{"start":3471.101,"end":3490.955,"text":"所以倘若主席今天堅持要進入竹條的話因為基本法跟作用法這個方向完全是差太多你要怎麼樣去整合我想會有很大的問題所以我也是建議具體的建議說今天先保留那請等一下主席就針對基本法跟作用法今天版本差異這麼大的這個狀況也要做出採釋謝謝好"},{"start":3497.119,"end":3513.954,"text":"那我想既然大家都對於這個院版有點困惑我也說明一下其實最早AI基本法在賴清德總統擔任行政院院長的時候其實就想要來提出那在幾屆會期2018年許一仁委員也有提出草案"},{"start":3514.594,"end":3535.664,"text":"那其實一路下來我們不斷經歷了各界的會期我們這個會期也完整的完成了巡達以及公聽會各界也都表達非常多的期待那當然我想我們剛剛是有一定的共識是發現我們的行政院目前為止是院版還沒有提出但這一次的狀況比較特殊我們也要給我們的這個好球投手吳承文主委一個感謝當時確實準時的投出了國客會版本的院版"},{"start":3540.706,"end":3563.658,"text":"那只不過後來有這個所謂的226改弦議策之日所以現在換到了速發部那確實我們有不同黨派的委員也都不太確定現在行政院的版本在速發部這裡還是在行政院那院版為什麼沒有辦法提出那有各種不同的說法有說兩版基本上是差異不大等等所以我想我們是不是剛剛雖然有各種說法我們還是先聽一下這個我們先讓這個速發部部長來做個簡單回應 謝謝"},{"start":3572.042,"end":3593.6,"text":"謝謝召委和各位委員我們基本上就是在上次公聽會跟那個平台討論還有我們這個很多的會議之後呢我們發現就是各界意見還是非常的分歧所以第一個就是我們還在凝聚共識那另外當然也根據國際局勢的改變剛剛有提到那個最近美國川普上任之後對美國"},{"start":3594.761,"end":3618.898,"text":"他原來拜登所訂的一些AI的政策做了很大的改變那也因為這樣關係所以歐盟包括英國就決定延後AI推廣的這個監管的法案因為這樣關係我們事實上還在觀察這個目前國際的發展趨勢這個而且AI的技術真的變化太快從以前的辨識型AI到後來的這個生成式AI到現在可能會所謂的代理AIAgent AI"},{"start":3620.058,"end":3631.365,"text":"這個監管的方式都不同所以我覺得因為AI的技術還在變化所以現在訂的會不會太早這是我們也在討論的那細節部分我是不是請市長再問好 那委員"},{"start":3637.068,"end":3652.862,"text":"那本部大概是說到行政院要接辦那個AI基本法的立法工作我們確實也有投入時間從2月6號到3月19那政委有邀集我們大概有進行廣泛的討論所以有部分條文我們大概也有去融合"},{"start":3653.462,"end":3677.373,"text":"但是最主要在院版的部分現在的進度我們大家有詢問大概就是台灣現在有特殊的政經的環境所以在資安或假訊息的環境之下院理對於風險監管方面特別的慎重同時大概在4月16號教文也有開了一個所謂的公聽會那裡面的委員大概有提到就是說"},{"start":3678.353,"end":3704.747,"text":"針對特定的場景的分級的管理這個部分我們也特別在院板的相關的條文也有融合了風險的管理也就是我們所謂的畫紅線的部分針對於這個特別的部分有去研析那希望說我們大概在本部的立場仍然還是希望說強烈有院板來並案審查讓院裡有一定的立場在這個AR基本法裡面去表達大家希望委員可以體諒"},{"start":3708.099,"end":3732.509,"text":"請當然也謝謝速發部的承擔那過去這段時間但是當然各個委員有不同的想法那我們請吳承文主任謝謝 謝謝趙委員 各位委員各位從去年把原來我們草泥的這個版本送到行政院到現在其實是有大家沒有放下停下腳步啦"},{"start":3733.849,"end":3752.911,"text":"一直在收集各方的意見在行政院那邊一直在考慮包含這個產業發展創新的需求以及在我們民眾人權保護的相關的這個議題所以各方的這個意見都還是持續在收集進行當中"},{"start":3755.173,"end":3772.452,"text":"最近大家也知道剛剛蘇澳布也提到地緣政治貿易衝突等等其實我們如果回想3月的時候在巴黎召開了AI峰會美國的代表副總統他代表川普總統"},{"start":3773.693,"end":3800.501,"text":"在會後本來要簽署一個世界各國要同意的一個協議那美國是獨排中以那會後大家也發現說這個美國的立場相當的這個明確就是他在AI的這個發展上面絕對不願意任何其他國家來超越他因為AI是美國算是從美國"},{"start":3802.641,"end":3819.117,"text":"各種的這個原始的科學研究以及產業發展是從美國開始然後蔓延到全世界那目前除了美國跟中國以外其他的國家都會意識到說這個AI的進展非常的快速"},{"start":3820.378,"end":3838.302,"text":"在相關法律的制定,必須要很謹慎的去因應以免自己在AI創新產業的發展會受到影響同時又要兼顧到人權的保障,所以這個議題相當的複雜從我個人的觀點來看,AI的發展還在起步當中"},{"start":3843.863,"end":3859.911,"text":"這個起步將來甚至會跟量子運算會結合的那未來高速運算AI 量子這幾個領域將來如何結合現在還有很多的科學研發的工作要去進行"},{"start":3861.031,"end":3884.863,"text":"所以現在各國反而是變成採取一個比較觀望的態度這個現象的確在最近也發生了所以我們行政院可能也現在採取一個比較謹慎的態度以上我跟曾委員報告沒有我只是想詢問一下照這樣的一個說法這讓我有點很confuse就是說我剛剛也贊同我們兩位部長還有部長跟主委所提到的AI本來就是訊息萬變"},{"start":3886.064,"end":3907.815,"text":"随时在变化而且我们现在又提到的川普川普今天所讲的初一十五都不一样但是我还是要提醒AN这是一个基本法它只是一个基本法基本法的定义它就是一个上位大法所以说呢它当然里面的执行或里面的部分里面可以来做一个依循的一个标准可是我刚刚从头到尾听到尾里面"},{"start":3908.835,"end":3936.573,"text":"我说实在的我们也期待有原版而且我们认为这个就是AI本来就是当前政府里面最重要的你看吴委员不断地为一千八百亿还有这一百几百亿几千亿就是希望能够让我们变成一个AI大国我们台湾也有这样的实力我只是不能理解我们现在在处理这个AI基本法是一个基本法从第九届到现在怎么可能还拿不出一个基本法的一个基本的一个主轴"},{"start":3937.193,"end":3951.821,"text":"那書發部剛剛也特別提到了司長也提到了從二月開始你就不斷在動可是到目前為止好像又覺得說因為瞬息萬變方式所以我們現在沒有辦法可以在這個時候能夠提出那到底要給國人"},{"start":3952.782,"end":3976.877,"text":"感觉我们这个政府是如何不然我们就当场就觉得AI基本法目前来说不适合因为没有办法应付这么瞬息万变的时候我们就干脆停顿这也是一种态度而不是大家坐在这个地方等不到院版然后大家所讲的等着书发布的书面报告里面又没有办法告诉我们我说实在我们很努力的研读如果你今天进入组条我说实在的"},{"start":3977.757,"end":4004.808,"text":"包括书发部你比照大家所有的这个部分里面来说你看第一条第五条第十条第十二条我想以葛委员的版本或是以那个国客会的版本包括入数位平权或是这个有关弱势族群包括于推动这个能够跟生化产学合作这十二条都是有共识的我只是希望透过今天大家要道题讨论大家在谈到道题讨论的时候已经把第二条哪个主管机关其实就已经在做讨论了"},{"start":4005.208,"end":4031.321,"text":"那我們如果說要讓大家覺得我們這邊可以進一步那我就乾脆我們就是保留送出協商否則的話你足條裡面我說實在大家仔細看其實有很多是可以共識的起碼我看的結果比對結果有四條是書報報同意也是遵照國科會部分那表示我們就往往前進的一個空間啦所以我們大家應該做一個決定需要足條呢還是就是保留送協商總言之總不能耗在這個地方然後"},{"start":4031.761,"end":4057.408,"text":"吃吃的等形狀的版本我必須要老實說在委員院審版本不今天一定要有院版就可以了在我們的學服法裡面我們沒有院版的狀況下我們還是逐條等院版真正來之後發現那個吻合度很高我們就可以立即做到我不想說大家在這邊浪費一堆時間然後還是耗在這個地方從第九卷到現在已經多久時間還沒有辦法搞出一個AI基本法我還是強調基本大法"},{"start":4057.628,"end":4083.667,"text":"不是要你去做到什麼多細節的我讓我們的委員會真的是對不起對於這個AI立國的這樣子的一個方向啦好 謝謝柯志文委員羅廷瑋委員 然後接下來謝榮介委員好這樣聽完部長跟主委的說法因為瞬息萬變所以我們不改變我們AI這個基本法不是政治法案"},{"start":4085.373,"end":4105.247,"text":"我記得在改裝電腦界最近葛委員也在改裝電腦好像說三個月電腦就有一波新的更動更新那更何況手機可能半年但AI呢就是瞬息萬變"},{"start":4107.048,"end":4123.095,"text":"我們這一次賴清德總統也說他是AI內閣但是我們現在在釘釘AI基本法卻好像不太願意去大刀闊斧我想許多的家長也都非常非常的擔憂我們會不會在AI的戰爭當中看不到車尾燈"},{"start":4128.089,"end":4149.639,"text":"對於AI的境界當中我們會不會只是AI裡面的時器時代所以我想今天這一個AI基本法我看到這麼多裡面都有大概很多的一些委員都有共識的我覺得我們應該趕快處理所以這個部分希望能夠趕快推進謝謝謝榮介委員接下來油化委員"},{"start":4151.064,"end":4158.368,"text":"我相信是這樣,AI本來就是一直前例,一直在注意、在想辦法。這是一個基本,在中美兩大陣營的對抗當中,顯然我們沒辦法就是要站在美國這邊,這是必然。"},{"start":4174.556,"end":4194.503,"text":"但你不能全部單臺嘛就是到底要強力監管要兼顧發展你又不能一直發展所以你運搬出來就是說可以有某些豁免因為單臺嘛單臺我們不能只有單臺啊我們必須要有所作為六黨嘛"},{"start":4201.448,"end":4211.252,"text":"如果當下就說這個所有的對應台的AI內閣其實很多人期待你想想這中間有一些醫療AI對於人的身體 因為未來一直成立 每天在進步新的東西出來 如果你沒有一個感官範"},{"start":4223.857,"end":4250.206,"text":"所以在這個強力的監管跟快速的發展中間是可以處在平衡的所以是不是你要提出一個硬板呢這個硬板裡面可以有部分的豁免部分的擁穩部分的等待要怎麼合成啊如果我們一段再一段啦第三回機等過第四回機這有很多人的希望尤其是羅總統"},{"start":4252.031,"end":4261.761,"text":"我不知道你現在的態度是什麼,因為要當美國特朗普總統他的態度很明確,我們要配合他來守我們的法我個人認為不需要這樣,我們有辦法在當台的過程中,確定我們現在的基本態度不然你現在沒辦法,只有這委員的版本"},{"start":4275.779,"end":4285.846,"text":"協商到現在還是大家都不願意啊不然你們可以不願意說你們沒有提出議判最好協商這個法可以審嗎主委跟我討論是不是所以還是要快速提出來針對監管跟發展中間的一個平衡要進入各版本的協商要不然協商"},{"start":4305.089,"end":4316.392,"text":"很簡單,大家沒有很大的基建,要怎麼快速,這後面各行各業都在等待所以基本發出來後後面的社稷管理,那麼在業界的發展"},{"start":4321.694,"end":4329.076,"text":"現在是中發電啦 勤監督 現在是要檢舉監督勤發電行政院要有一個態度出來 不能說大家這樣就去做自己的如果大家都做自己的 也不需要行政院跟立法院在這裡共同討論"},{"start":4344.58,"end":4359.128,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接下來請尤化委員然後待會陳培宇委員謝謝 也謝謝各位同樣的也是注意剛才不管是柯政委員還有包括薛榮傑委員大家的一個意見跟看法"},{"start":4359.648,"end":4380.163,"text":"因為在人工智慧基本法其實從第九條到現在大家也經過非常多的討論那其實不管是速發部或者是國科會其實大家在立法院或者是在內部也經過非常多的討論所以說在整個草案其實在許多的從主管機關到許多每個條文的部分其實大家早就有想法"},{"start":4380.663,"end":4409.098,"text":"那如果說現在來講的話在持續在等卷版的話那其實這樣子其實社會各界都一直在期待其實我相信部會也很希望這個法能夠早日通過能夠早日實施大家都有共識啊所以本市長是也希望說在今天的的話的聯席過程中能夠針對許多的內容大家有一個許多明確的結果因為其實這個不是今天才討論的這是經過從第九節到現在大家都已經討論其實機關來講其實也都很清楚啊"},{"start":4409.258,"end":4429.023,"text":"所以機關在你草案的時候早就也都有想法啦所以我是覺得說與其我們在等候啊不如大家其實不管是國民黨民眾黨或是民進黨的委員大家就一起來讓這個法在今天有一個具體的成果我相信這也是民眾社會比較希望能夠看得到的尤其在科技業大家希望能夠早日有成果謝謝"},{"start":4430.183,"end":4445.795,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員好 謝謝主席我想談一下因為剛剛我知道我們有在討論光是主管機關這件事情都還沒有談定但是聽說你們教文的委員就希望如果要談到主管機關那就要進主條"},{"start":4446.556,"end":4465.119,"text":"可是剛剛柯志恩委員又舉了學福法為例我要講這不是一個可以同等比喻的案例因為學福法它早在十年前就有這個法而且當時的主管機關非常的明確但這一次連主管機關都不明確的情況下不同的主管機關有不同的想像跟不同的部門之間連結的可能性"},{"start":4465.6,"end":4485.84,"text":"我認為光是主管機關沒有談定這件事情就應該好好花時間的討論那再更何況各個主條裡面其實很多委員的版本其實差異很大那我認為廣泛討論這些事情的意義非常重要而且我要提醒剛剛其實有很多委員有提到各國現在對於AI所謂監管的事情其實態度很不一樣"},{"start":4486.761,"end":4501.042,"text":"那我認為剛剛國民黨委員一直提到所謂卓院長也好或是賴總統也好我想要提醒大家目前在相關政策跟預算的推動上在各個部會或是AI監管都已經有相關的措施在進行"},{"start":4502.023,"end":4524.799,"text":"台灣目前雖然沒有AI基本法但並不代表所有部會的行政推動或是預算支持就是停滯不前的甚至剛剛有人指控是AI的時期時代我非常不以為然也感到遺憾身為一個立法委員看的不是只有立法還要監督行政機關的運作如果你真的認真去看各個行政機關目前在AI政策上的推動就應該知道各個部會都有相關業務在推動因此我認為"},{"start":4525.64,"end":4541.959,"text":"就算我們現在沒有基本法但我們很多事情已經在推動的情況下更實質的去跟這些政策對話去跟這些預算對話可能是更好的機制那當然我也認為基本法也好或是大家可能後續還想要加沖加料變作用法我都認為都需要更多實質的討論"},{"start":4543.2,"end":4564.773,"text":"而且現在因為國際的聲音很不一樣我們並不是要等到美國立法之後我們才來立法而是如果相關科技它所對接的就是像美國 英國 歐洲這些國家他們的需求那我們更要回過來看當你在跟這些國際國家對話的時候你難道不用回來看我們自己現在這樣做是對的嗎所以我認為這件事情真的很需要實質的更多討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":4568.158,"end":4590.533,"text":"因為陳培委員剛點名的課真三個字所以我還是要做一些回應我想培委員我剛所講的脈絡是說大家都在講要等願版來我們來繼續才來繼續築條我剛剛只是用學夫法來說沒有願版我們還是有辦法進入築條不要單指一個執行的機關這不是我剛剛所講話的本意我還是把話說清楚"},{"start":4591.053,"end":4620.369,"text":"然后呢执行机关在第二条的部分的确没有谈定所以呢你即使广泛讨论其实结果也还是莫衷于事还是没有办法所以说进入组条的状况跟广泛讨论的状况是一样的但是你进入组条起码你往前推进一步不管在第一条我刚刚说的第四条第几条当中我们有一些共识没有共识的话我们就送出委员会然后呢再来做继续这样才有办法让这个基本法一步一步贴近"},{"start":4620.589,"end":4621.831,"text":"主席 各位同仁 其實大家都"},{"start":4637.134,"end":4663.928,"text":"贊同啦 就我們現在是非常重視AI的這個國家然後當然行政院或總統有推什麼AI政策大家當然都非常的高興 而且歡迎但這跟我們到底要不要立法我覺得並沒有衝突啦因為畢竟民主國家還是一個依法行政而且透過立法可以讓政府繼續在這一塊更完備 更快往前走所以如果我們要真的大家重視AI的話我覺得AI基本法早日的訂定絕對是有相關的"},{"start":4664.688,"end":4690.415,"text":"那現在如果說只是卡在說沒有願版或者是說針對有一些條文大家意見不一樣那哪個法律常常也都發生這樣的狀況啊很多法律在推出之前大家每個版本都不一樣啊但是總是要往前走啊那所以這個AI基本法基本上也開過公聽會了然後上次也都有質詢過那如果說就是因為有一條大家的意見不一樣那乾脆我們就不要再討論了"},{"start":4691.263,"end":4708.579,"text":"那這個永遠都不會有前進的嘛那所以我其實我也是主張說今天要有一個結果啦那如果沒有願版的話那就請這個法案送出委員會之後請那個行政院趕快把版本送進來啊大家就針對行政院的版本還有各委員版本一起不管是協商也好或者是討論也好"},{"start":4709.5,"end":4726.984,"text":"那我覺得往前走才是主要的目的啦那如果總是找一些理由說這個那個的不要做的話那其實這比較容易啦但是這應該不是國家的需求啦 謝謝好 再來徐富奎委員保障利害關係人參與之權利提升市政透明度及"},{"start":4729.846,"end":4741.357,"text":"接下來張雅玲委員 郭玉琴委員 吳宗憲委員 謝謝還有黃建豪委員 林怡瑾 趙偉好 謝謝主席各位同仁 我想剛剛聽了這麼多委員的提問我想我們還是認為這個法"},{"start":4745.04,"end":4773.639,"text":"真的不能夠這麼草率來處理那尤其我們過去看到這個藍白兩黨在很多的案子上面的處理真的是這樣壞腸壓進去了這個很多的例子都可以看得出來那所以針對今天這樣的一個案子尤其我們AI涉及到各個領域我們都支持說應該要加快進行但是因為各領域有差別性的不同所以更應該考量到多元的一個發展不應該用一個基本法用無差別的方式進行監管"},{"start":4773.979,"end":4803.259,"text":"那尤其過去我們知道這個我們原本在交通委員會主管的一個業務那在藍白強行的免疫之下又把它移到所謂教文那主管機關原本數位部又變成國科會這樣變來變去也不知道到底什麼人可以來管我想在這些問題還沒有釐清之前我們更應該謹慎那尤其看到我們現在歐美新進國家他們對於監管的取向也有不一樣的態勢我們更應該要謹慎小心才是"},{"start":4803.899,"end":4831.341,"text":"好 接下來張雅玲委員 謝謝好 我想大家都非常的關注AI這件事情那我想這個可能是今天大家唯一的共識啦怎麼說因為剛剛雖然很多的委員一直在講說我們從第九屆就開始討論很久但是我認為因為就是因為科技的日新月異不代表討論很久我們今天就可以直接討論因為如果我們只是靠傳統的修法那會不會造成我們的修法根本沒有跟上這個時代還有現在"},{"start":4831.821,"end":4849.889,"text":"各個國家歐盟英國美國等等我們能不能夠對接一下能不能確保我們的產業有競爭力我認為這還是需要更審慎的來討論那第二件事情是說在整個法案的核心裡面人工智慧的定義都沒有共識這會直接影響到這個法所涵蓋的範圍"},{"start":4851.81,"end":4865.987,"text":"風險分類治治理的主體以及技術落地的一個實務的界線那再來剛剛還有提到說雖然都已經開了公聽會但是我想大家過去可能在討論AI的時候並沒有討論到兒少的影響的部分那過去"},{"start":4866.227,"end":4890.451,"text":"其實我們在很多的法案都會做兒少的影響性評估今天家長很在乎自己的小孩有沒有跟上時代但是更在乎自己的小孩會不會因為AI而走上死亡之路因為就在不久前美國佛州也才提出了14歲的少年因為跟AI機器人對話最後被導引了走向死亡的這條路所以我認為在兒少性的影響性評估我們目前似乎也都還沒有做"},{"start":4890.951,"end":4906.962,"text":"在我們之前的公聽會也沒有找相關的兒少團體來發言的時候我們其實對於AI的發展會不會實質的影響到兒少的最佳利益我們是一無所知在這種狀況之下要進入實質的討論我認為對兒少來說並不是一件好事 謝謝謝謝 接下來請郭益勤委員"},{"start":4915.708,"end":4943.727,"text":"我再次强调我觉得我们国会不应该是成为这个比谁先送案的一个竞技场那更不能牺牲这个立法的一个品质AI的发展其实它牵扯的范围非常的广那包含像是隐私权或者是劳动权那公平竞争私安教育跟未来人才的一个培育这是绝对不会是单独就可以拍板的那我想呢刚刚其实大家都有提到这个主管机关未定那共识不足"},{"start":4944.147,"end":4964.572,"text":"那冒然的逐條其實還會衍生更多將來要解釋跟這個行政爭奪還有造成這個法制上面崩解這樣子的一個問題我想這個AI不是寫好條文就可以管而是要靠整個整體制度的一個體系的這個落地那我們真的有準備好嗎雖然說這個是上位法但是上位法是不是應該更彰顯它的一個價值"},{"start":4966.553,"end":4992.227,"text":"那如果今天貿然的逐條或者在沒有共識之下去討論這些將來留下的一些所謂的這個法律漏洞給未來的一個執行者跟主管機關去收拾我想這是一個非常不負責任的態度啦好 以上好 謝謝我們接下來有請吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員也是我們這個這一屆會期最早主要提案 流動自衛機關法草案的委員好 現在有需要"},{"start":4993.348,"end":5016.958,"text":"那我去年3月我跟那個葛委員還有洪孟凱委員我們那時候就共提了AI基本法所以對於行政機關而言這絕對不是突襲啊所以我們去年3月我就已經提出來這個基本法的草案那這個草案我也不是說2月進立法院3月就申出來這個草案是我自己之前就花了一兩年的時間"},{"start":5018.078,"end":5036.548,"text":"跟一些法律系的教授像甘天貴教授等等的我們是一步一步的研究出AI的走向因為我自己碩士論文就寫人工智慧所以這東西不是突然騰空出世的那我想我們那個時候提的時候剛好歐洲歐盟他們也才剛提而已"},{"start":5037.008,"end":5058.894,"text":"但是現在一年三個月過去了我們還在原地踏步然後我們旁邊的韓國反而從完全沒有到現在超前了我們很多那我再跟各位報告一下我們今天這是基本法不是作用法你們剛剛很多委員提出很寶貴的論述但那個是在作用法的時候討論的基本法其實不需要討論到那麼細節或各個細項的東西"},{"start":5063.179,"end":5086.529,"text":"我想我們尤其台灣現在是出口導向的這個國家啦那人工智慧這個本來現在是全世界都一直在推動那如果你不趕快把這個法律框架跟這個它的原理原則去處理好的話整個我們會繼續的落後那我也跟各位報告因為政府上任之後一直說希望要推動AI的內閣嘛用AI治國那我也非常認同"},{"start":5087.509,"end":5108.914,"text":"政府的這個政策可是如果這個政策你的最基本的基本法都推不出來更不要講未來的作用法你基本法每拖一年你作用法就要再往後多少年更何況作用法還涉及到科技的進步那你能工智慧他科技進步他可能一個月就完全不一樣啊那你基本法一直拖你作用法"},{"start":5109.594,"end":5130.769,"text":"你可能今年立出來的作用法明年整套不能用那大家有沒有想過這個問題你光是那個CHAP GPT它就已經翻了多少版本了那我再提一個就是說我很希望趕快把這個弄出來因為人工智慧跟我們一般人類的智慧不一樣人類智慧它是要逐年去累積所以一個小朋友他"},{"start":5131.79,"end":5159.107,"text":"就像我小孩四歲而已他現在還不知道火很危險他從燒到幾次知道火不能碰他可能要三五年以上的時間但人工智慧它是全世界的機器同時學習它可能在一秒鐘之內它會學習到完整的知識所以它的變化是瞬間的而不是像我們人類是慢慢的慢慢的一步步走所以人工智慧的法案它的立法的思考跟我們處理人類社會的那種法案的思考不能夠一樣"},{"start":5160.528,"end":5179.352,"text":"我們要學習的東西需要十年他可能是一瞬間一秒鐘之內因為他累積的資料庫是全世界所有有連線的人工智慧機器所學習到的資料他知道走台階沒有台腳會跌倒小朋友可能要一年但是呢人工智慧可能是0.5秒內因為有500台有1000台"},{"start":5183.753,"end":5204.959,"text":"機器在這個地方跌倒他就會告訴大家不可以在這個地方這麼做一定要在抬腳所以我想喔速度這東西非常的重要那我們去年3月就已經提出整個法的草案那如果行政機關跟不上那我們就只能由立法機關這邊來趕快來來朝這個方向去做好 接下來黃建豪委員然後吳佩儀委員"},{"start":5208.301,"end":5221.889,"text":"黃建豪委員 林一菊委員然後吳佩儀委員 謝謝好 謝謝張偉我想今天我們大家討論的是這個人工智慧的基本法那既然是基本法我想它的核心的應該是這所謂技術治理而不是在所謂數位管理的部分"},{"start":5223.09,"end":5242.066,"text":"過去大家討論的時候也會非常強調說要去做資料應用或是平台的管制這個應該是後續應用上面或是說AI基本法立好之後我們的上位法處理好之後進入到產業政策或進入到實際上執行的時候我們再來討論所謂的監管或者是應用的部分那在現階段之前處理基本法"},{"start":5242.346,"end":5268.805,"text":"我覺得應該是從所謂技術倫理演算法透明跟科學性的自主性生命來切入我想這也是我們國科會過去就是長期擔任的角色不然過去說提到了像是AI人才培育計畫台灣AI中心AI台灣行動計畫等等等等這從2018年開始都是由當時的科技部國科會來主導這樣的重大政策所以我想這是有一定的延續性我想這個數位就是說這個人工智慧它不是單純的"},{"start":5270.226,"end":5291.619,"text":"就是不是直接進入到所謂數位應用工具而它一開始是所謂的我們現在這個階段討論是這個深層科技怎麼去發展怎麼去研發那它是有機器學習比較神經網路還有量子計算的這些技術面的問題科學面的東西所以我覺得在現階段在處理AI基本法的時候應該是要有這樣子國科會這樣子的機關來處理來做主管機關相對來講會比較有權瞻性"},{"start":5297.682,"end":5316.774,"text":"我想各位也比較過,現在全世界兩大聯盟在做AI,一個是像中跟美,這樣是屬於發展性的,我們不管政治怎麼參,他們對AI人工智慧的態度,歐洲是比較保守,強調監管,美國跟中國比較強調發展,"},{"start":5321.356,"end":5346.742,"text":"這個科技的這個競爭上面看起來啦歐盟的目前因為他強調監管的情況下面他確實對於AI的管理AI的發展相對的比較我覺得應用上沒有那麼強烈所以在科技面我覺得至少現階段我們先處理科技面先處理研發面的時候還是應該去強調說這個科學的部分還要強調這個發展的部分那後續那如果進入到實質上的商用"},{"start":5347.362,"end":5374.614,"text":"還有各政府部門之間要討論說我們在這個金融系統怎麼管理我們在這個互徵資料怎麼管理等等的那個是那個時候可能數位部或是說我們監管的機制在進場那今天討論的是基本法基本法是上位我們是先把這個上位處理好那再去處理後續營用的部分以上 謝謝謝謝我們接下來請林一錦召委持續確保經費符合推動人工智能政策"},{"start":5375.234,"end":5395.153,"text":"今天台審最主要是這樣就是說我會認為目前沒有速發部的這個院版出來那這樣子因為這是一個新法那如果說能等速發部的草案出來再跟大家版本來並案審查這才會比較妥適那為什麼會這樣講因為其實"},{"start":5398.456,"end":5420.645,"text":"第一個行政院的這個大方向的規劃就是已經要委由速發部來主責這個AI基本法的推動那之後我們還會針對很多的這個像說風險如何分類啊然後會有個風險分類的機制或者促進資料創新條例發展條例等等就與AI相關的執法其實也都是由速發部來做這個盤點所以"},{"start":5424.267,"end":5446.449,"text":"所以為什麼要等速發布的草案出來行政院是這樣子的處理方式那可是這畢竟是一個新的法那可是我們現在很多委員的版本像說我們招委的版本就是以國科會為組織的單位所以這當然就有很大的歧義的部分"},{"start":5447.25,"end":5460.557,"text":"那當然目前就我了解啦行政部門也不是不做事他其實已經在由政委在協調會議有協調出AI治理的一方針而且他們認為速發部才是最佳的這個組織的單位"},{"start":5463.238,"end":5483.903,"text":"可是我想葛昭偉質疑要國科會來主管而且也安排在教育委員會來主審這個當然這部分我是比較難以理解這樣的安排是有如何更專業的考量這個可能也等一下看葛昭偉怎麼說"},{"start":5485.003,"end":5503.562,"text":"那再看剛剛其他委員的說法就其實AI的發展就真的是關係牽涉到國際關係跟全球的佈局那世界上台灣的潛在競爭對象又或者合作的對象的一舉一動我們當然必須要很及時的掌握那像說好"},{"start":5504.362,"end":5520.569,"text":"他為了觀察美國川普政府的這個政策走向他就保留對AI大型科技公司的吸引力就延後AI監管法案的推動那美國甚至還要在未來十年內禁止各州制定針對AI的相關法規那至於歐盟也表態"},{"start":5521.409,"end":5540.337,"text":"說如果這個技術標準跟指引還沒有就緒那還不排除延後部份這個監管法規的生效那這樣國際上的案例給我們的啟示是什麼AI是人類發展的新的領域它變化空間相當大今天的審查我認為是完全違背世界各國的謹小慎微"},{"start":5541.437,"end":5567.564,"text":"那不僅在院版還沒有出來之前就要趕火車而且硬要跟行政專業唱反調因為這個國科會跟這個數位不夠主責單位的問題那所以我是覺得這樣啦審法案我們真的是為了服國利民而不是爭功搶勞那我覺得還是是不是可以請行政部門做出全版的評估之後我們再來處理好不好以上"},{"start":5569.233,"end":5593.297,"text":"因為這個林警召委有點名到我我想我快速回應一下第一點我想國歌會主委怎麼說都還是政委而且他有順利的在他所承諾的期限之內提出了一板草案只不過後續被行政院收回不明原因同時在機關的人力上面國歌會也是人數是較多的"},{"start":5593.777,"end":5601.327,"text":"同時在過去AI數位相關的預算有高達五十幾億總共有將近三百億是由國客會在主導"},{"start":5602.202,"end":5628.978,"text":"那速發部呢相對只有5億左右數位加AI還不是只有AI的預算人力相對的也比較吃緊現在又要做打詐又要做資安那我們也非常擔憂可能會影響到信任的問題因為近期呢有一些數位、資安、憑證等等遇到一些信任的問題我們也會擔心現在可能有人開始不信任我們的數位"},{"start":5630.211,"end":5656.222,"text":"甚至未來會不會有人不信任我們的AI那甚至我們賴清德總統也在2月說這是民進黨的優先法案結果我們現在還在這裡講各種各種的原因不往下推進我們也擔心各國會不信任台灣的政黨所以我想我們想的是更上位的事情我們也希望大家可以一起來理解謝謝那我們接下來請吳佩儀委員"},{"start":5658.985,"end":5685.333,"text":"剛剛前面吳仲憲委員的發言部分我同意不過因為有一個部分我想因為前面可能還沒有到因為剛剛說今天都是基本法的討論通通都沒有作用法不是啦我剛剛前面就有提了民眾黨黨團的提案完全是作用法嘛你看這36條足以嚴重損害於個人資料當事人者處五年以下有期徒刑第37條借期未改善者處新台幣兩億元"},{"start":5686.873,"end":5707.382,"text":"或企業年營收百分之四以下之罰款這個當然是作用法而且不是只有36、37條它整個法案本身它就是人工作業發展及管理條例這個完全就是作用法所以如果說今天要送書委員會要去協商的話請問這個基本法跟作用法要如何協商"},{"start":5707.782,"end":5734.632,"text":"而且他是黨團的提案不是一個個別委員的提案還是說我們要完全的拋棄民眾黨團的版本那民眾黨團到寫上的時候會同意嗎所以我的建議還是說不是說我們不能在委會好好討論但是今天你一個黨這個差異太大了請問基本法跟作用法要如何有共識我們今天現場其他提案委員有同意要處以刑法有同意要處到兩億元一億元的罰環嗎"},{"start":5737.453,"end":5761.699,"text":"這個是務實的問題啊主席所以我剛剛說部分我都同意可是這個基本法跟作法差異這麼大情況下我真的不知道如果你們今天要堅持送出委員會到協商有可能有共識嗎剛剛榮介委員也說協商會有共識嗎不會嘛這個是關乎產業很重大的法案我希望不要這樣子來處理謝謝好謝謝我們有請林佩祥委員接下來劉淑冰委員"},{"start":5764.668,"end":5771.863,"text":"謝謝主席有關人工智慧基本法這個案子我認為儘快送出委員會的最主要原因是因為說"},{"start":5774.44,"end":5794.08,"text":"深度學習這東西是非常可怕的剛剛不管是中線委員還是其他委員都已經講過當我們現在還在討論這些事情的時候AI的速度不是像我們一般的產業慢慢的前進他們的科研他們的甚至說我記得我看過一個影片兩部AI自己在講話最後面他們發出自己才懂的訊息人類是不能懂的"},{"start":5794.5,"end":5810.398,"text":"但在这个前提之下如果我们在于说这个AI的发展方向不明确那很有可能在未来不是只有单纯的说AI的发展上面而是我们全国的我们在国际之间的产业竞争跟我们未来可以发展的方向"},{"start":5810.758,"end":5834.773,"text":"都会受到阻碍试想一下我们现在的进合关系是跟全球在做进合但是如果我们没有自己的特色的话我们政府如果不能用这AI基本法决定我们的特色来限制说可能有危害的地方甚至发展出来我们自己的优势的话我认为在未来的经济竞争跟产业竞争上面我们会有极大的冲击甚至说我们可能做的都已经晚了"},{"start":5835.492,"end":5853.744,"text":"那第二点来讲的话我会个人认为说以国科会来去做主管机关会比速发部来的好原因是很简单刚刚建豪委员刚刚有提过我深表认同因为我记得最近看最新的报告美国跟中国是在AI上面算是目前竞争力最强的两个国家"},{"start":5854.164,"end":5879.33,"text":"那歐盟可是歐盟其實他們的科研的能力很強為什麼他們沒有辦法去跟美國跟中國人併加崎嶇原因是因為歐盟需要27個國家都能夠一致性的認同某些政策而在這種前提之下我們會看到是說他們AI發展必須獲得共識之後才能出來所以說他們以歐盟的AI政策的發展來講他們是用管制或協調的方式相對於美國跟中國讓企業讓產業能夠自由發揮這點來講對於國家競爭力是比較有幫助的"},{"start":5884.031,"end":5890.277,"text":"因此我會認為說以國科會來做主管機關會比速發不來的恰當以上請劉書斌委員"},{"start":5893.18,"end":5912.915,"text":"好 謝謝主席民眾黨去參與AI相關法定的制定的時候是起自於在第十屆的時候是由吳欣怡委員在進行我們做一個小檔的話我們認真的考慮到的是AI在台灣的發展它事實上就如之前的吳主委還有談論過或是說各個當局在公聽會裡面談到的"},{"start":5914.036,"end":5941.626,"text":"就是台灣目前的AI的發展呢最主要已經是在研發上面事實上是落後的因為沒辦法發展目前的這個地方是在美國跟中國為主但是在我們確實重要的是在應用的部分那在應用的部分的時候就必須要有很多的包括的是一種基本原則的運作還有包括的是在一個鼓勵的發展方向的部分還更重要的是職權上面的認定還有在風險分類上面的這個指引這些部分呢"},{"start":5942.226,"end":5969.225,"text":"事實上只有在一個作用法當中才比較完整的呈現出來當初我們是善盡一個小黨的一個責任呈現出來這部分但是在目前看到各黨的版本當中他們對於職權的部分其實是不明確的像我們發展這樣是在那第四條當中呈現出來的那我們在現在的在第十一屆在呈現在審議的調查度上面我們當然是要跟各黨的不一樣兩黨的不一樣但是我們希望的是說有一個保留保持著一個文保持著一個小黨當中對一個"},{"start":5970.586,"end":5982.063,"text":"一個全面性的發展當中目前是一個以發展以應用為主的時候呈現出來它在架構上面還包括了鼓勵發展還有風險特別部分有一些罰則當時因為作用法無限就是在於說剛才剛才的是這個"},{"start":5986.91,"end":6000.005,"text":"對 張耀林委員也提到的是說包括兒少部分沒有去注意到的確的 實際上是身為這樣的技術上面目前都已經造成在我們的數位的影音網路上面都發生問題了這些部分"},{"start":6001.527,"end":6029.706,"text":"我們必須要有很具體的指引方向所以我們包括的是在包括是在發展的原則上面我們就提了有一張專則特別在那邊講出來呈現出來是我們對小黨對於各種議題上面的重視那這個情況下我們保留的態度是說我們希望說能夠保留下去這個名稱但是到最後的時候能夠透過政黨協商的部分去呈現出來是說尊重到時候在協商當中的態度當然可能呈現出來的是兩黨還是比較多數所以但是我們希望在委員會當中"},{"start":6040.497,"end":6051.91,"text":"我想剛剛有非常多委員的意見我們稍微簡要的回應其實第一是我們並非沒有願版其實國歌會有提出過一個版本那我相信速發部也做完他們的工作了"},{"start":6052.33,"end":6076.468,"text":"第二點,關於一些人權而少的保護其實我們第四條就有自主原則、保密原則、安全原則包含保障人民生命、身體自由以及財產之安全多包容原則,多元包容確保公平避免歧視其實就是需要有一個上位法各個機關去做法規調適我相信就可以做到信賴那我們一共有第四條、第六條、第十六條"},{"start":6077.228,"end":6094.285,"text":"都是AI的信賴、風險分類以及個人的保護強調數位平權的有第五條、第九條、第十七條我們也用了智商157的各種新型態的這種比對方法我們也看到國民黨的版本、民進黨版本之間相似度高達八成五"},{"start":6094.986,"end":6118.465,"text":"那其他民進黨、民眾黨、國民黨之間的版本互相的相似度有高達七成所以並非沒有共識的點那同時我們也剛剛提到就是剛剛有李昆哲委員、柯志恩委員有提案全案保留那現在14個版本我們剛剛提到其實經過比對也是高度相似的那現在本法已經討論將近一個小時了"},{"start":6120.126,"end":6143.27,"text":"那在場委員呢也都均充分的表達意見那我們現在有國民黨委員提國民黨委員提案全案保留送出委員會交付政黨協商那這個案由呢是建議本案停止討論全案保留送院會協商是否有當敬請公決提案人謝龍介林沛翔羅廷偉柯志恩洪孟凱委員那請問在場委員有異議"},{"start":6154.176,"end":6172.492,"text":"我再表達一次請大家去google一下賴清德空格人工智慧2017年12月18號賴清德擔任行政院長的時候就呼籲要運用人工智慧去提升競爭力創新創意所以我想這個已經二月份"},{"start":6172.992,"end":6195.573,"text":"也都是民進黨自己的優先法案民眾黨也提出他們的版本也有七成以上跟我們的相關的共性我們國民黨也希望那我們公聽會也有各界都是非常的期待從2017年到現在已經經歷八年了我想我們不需要再用其他的理由沒關係我們就來看一下這個提案好那既然有提案我們是不是"},{"start":6199.141,"end":6215.855,"text":"可以進到主條啊因為剛剛你們是要廣泛討論啊因為剛剛有李昆哲委員我們還是進主條啦對我們剛剛是因為李昆哲委員有提嘛那我們想要主條嘛那你們說想要廣泛討論嘛好"},{"start":6220.802,"end":6242.561,"text":"我們一個多小時的討論其實大家有共識還是有共識第一AI基本法重要嗎?重要大家都應該我們台灣都應該要有第二大家都希望是這個基本法在韓國人面上更完整更全面那我們一定要是有"},{"start":6243.959,"end":6269.869,"text":"提出來之後才能夠逐條然後大家來去做一個協商嘛其實我剛剛看了一下林益金委員的版本啊很多的版本裡面條文裡面其實也寫得很好啊對啊那一樣如果說今天是第一個會期我還是強調這一點是國科會跟速發部你們不可迴避的責任如果今天是2024年第一個會期的時候我們還可以這樣子來溝通是因為那個時候世界上還沒有"},{"start":6270.93,"end":6277.289,"text":"進行到那麼的快速可是現在是已經過了一整整的一年我們還逐步在原地踏步"},{"start":6278.342,"end":6306.509,"text":"那再者很多人剛在講是說有一些委員的版本是國科會為主管機關那是因為在去年那是因為那些委員版本在去年就提出來了那去年的時候民進黨政府真的就是把AI人工智慧基本法當成是國科會是主管機關嘛那是因為到了去年的11月的時候才從國科會突然轉成速發部你不能說去年11月從國科會轉速發部的然後就你現在導應為果來去說啊為什麼有些委員的版本是主管機關是國科會有些版本是速發部"},{"start":6307.529,"end":6329.615,"text":"那是因為是這個過程但我覺得既然大家有共識我們是不是逐條逐條來看文字相近的精神相符的我們就讓他可以順利的出委員會如果說文字不符的或是說條文上有大家討論的真的沒有辦法我們條文來保留那我也請等一下束發我不知道他們有沒有回應"},{"start":6330.595,"end":6354.369,"text":"什麼時候你們版本可以提出來我們有一個月的冷凍期其實為什麼會有一個月冷凍期就是希望在這一個月裡面大家各黨回去再凝聚共識縮減版本那另外也要要求行政部門提出來啊不然難道我們要開空白支票持續讓你們時間一拖再拖嗎人家都已經上太空了我們還要殺豬公這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6356.415,"end":6368.596,"text":"謝謝 好 謝謝可不可以請速發部明確展示一下我們是什麼時候會提出速發部這裡確認的願板還是你們其實已經提出了只是不好意思說"},{"start":6370.592,"end":6377.515,"text":"有嗎我們那個如果沒有具體時間我想現在是沒有但是我們在沒有具體時間對 2013年我們在11月22日有送2013嗎113年但是現在因為就是剛剛講的就是因為這個各部會的意見很多然後那個公聽會學者意見很多所以我們還在討論中"},{"start":6390.239,"end":6407.343,"text":"所以2024年113年10月22號10月22號有送一個版本了有一個願版了因為還在討論中所以目前還沒有一個願版好 謝謝部長那我們是不是就進竹條因為我們想要進竹條的時候你們又想要廣泛討論我想我們這樣會沒有結果喔"},{"start":6414.417,"end":6441.158,"text":"好 那就秀寶委員發言陳秀寶委員 謝謝謝謝張偉剛剛張偉有在說我們速發趕快把版本提出所以這個主管機關是在速發那既然主管機關是在速發為什麼是教文在審我一開始我看到說既然這個行政院他們認定說主管機關是速發部那我們也覺得說你要盡快提出你的版本之後"},{"start":6442.85,"end":6454.681,"text":"不好意思 我們是聯席我們陳雪生委員 廖先祥委員我們黃建豪委員我們也有民進黨的但是主責是不是應該是我們孟凱委員也是交通的聯席 謝謝"},{"start":6458.322,"end":6487.862,"text":"那你們這邊對我們教文這邊召委您排審是聯席那麼交通委員會的委員們他們自己也有會他們沒有辦法來參與沒有辦法來充分的來參與沒有 我今天我想請教的就是說既然這個主管機關是在速發我們也可以去聯席他們我們為什麼不尊重行政院"},{"start":6488.502,"end":6512.751,"text":"不好意思喔我還是因為這個我怕民眾有點誤會啦我們剛剛交通委員會的黃孟楷委員游浩委員李坑澤委員徐富奎委員都有發言黃靜豪委員那我們在現場的有廖先祥委員陳雪生委員都還在因為您排了聯席所以他們必須要來啊但是我只是說我的我質疑就是說既然主管機關他就是在速發"},{"start":6513.971,"end":6535.699,"text":"那為什麼我們叫我們一定要把它排到我們這裡來聯繫好 謝謝我也回應一下我們是依照院會交付的這個我們立院議制第1140701906號那是請貴會會同交通委員會審查本院委員許智傑等27人以據人工智慧基本法草案查照所以我們是依據相關的院的"},{"start":6535.939,"end":6544.43,"text":"要在交通委員會因為既然是速發部他是主管機關我們是聯席沒有錯但是不應該是我們叫我們去通知他們來聯席應該是"},{"start":6548.203,"end":6567.51,"text":"主場不是應該要在交通委員會嗎好 謝謝 發言完畢嗎好 謝謝我想您提到的剛好就是一個意見就是主條因為其實到第二條的時候我們就會討論到相關的主管機關那我想我們現在是要主條還是要討論所以我們不能主條了以後你們說要討論我們說要討論了你們又說要主條"},{"start":6571.471,"end":6595.575,"text":"所以我們是不是請民進黨委員決定一下我們現在又有一個新的提案建議本案停止討論進行逐條討論請問是否有當 敬請公決提案委員 謝榮健委員 林沛翔委員 羅廷偉委員好 請問有意見 請問委員有意見好 沒有意見 通過那我想我們就逐條 謝謝那我們"},{"start":6602.776,"end":6610.869,"text":"有意見那那就表決啊就表決因為我們已經沒有要我們已經在提案停止討論了那現在又要針對這個提案再進行討論我想"},{"start":6614.13,"end":6638.477,"text":"然後我們就表決是否有逐條我們再問一次我們希望讓社會大眾以及國際看到我們的共識好嗎我們這個是真的是一個非常基本上位的法案基本法我們再問一次想問周偉一下那個逐條我們是依照葛如君的版本還是徐主席的版本還是林益謹的版本我們有總共的比較我們全部都有比較因為文字差距很大耶沒有很大沒有很大嗎"},{"start":6641.358,"end":6656.801,"text":"國民黨民進黨都是八成五以上一樣AI比對過了然後這個全部的版本高達七成是相似的好不好不是關鍵字順序我們都有整理出來順序那這樣兩岸只要差一條後面全部都不一樣就是相似度百分之零不是吧"},{"start":6665.643,"end":6670.818,"text":"秀保委員講的很有道理這好像因為我們審法條件未來就是主監督嘛"},{"start":6672.28,"end":6700.681,"text":"好 翻译委员翻译完毕吗就是我觉得如果是交通委员会的召委来安排的话那未来这个监督跟修法一致性全策也比较能够追究啊翻译委员翻译完毕那我想我们立院相关的议事人员呢都有整理得非常完整都有每一个条文的顺序的差异还有这个相关的文字内容我们都整理好了都也都在各位桌上好 那我们就逐条好不好我们不讨论了"},{"start":6701.994,"end":6722.568,"text":"我們最後一個意見表達謝謝主席最後一個我剛剛聽到修保委員他提到一個很重要的點就是我剛剛第一次發言的時候我有表達說其實我也確實就一個原住民族的立場"},{"start":6723.749,"end":6738.285,"text":"我也很希望有一步伐來約束目前的一個AI人工的發展但是我要談的就是我看到這個主管機關奇異性很大沒有共識"},{"start":6739.997,"end":6765.283,"text":"那我要談的是說剛才秀寶委員提醒一點因為突然速發就接招了那我自己在立法院的這一段時間當中有一部法原住民很重視叫做原住民主學校法但是從第十屆的第一會期拿出來排審擱置至今也是因為主管機關喬布隆"},{"start":6767.523,"end":6782.453,"text":"所以我覺得對待我們的原住民族學校法只是因為原民會教育部主管機關推來推去也不知道每一次都跟我們說去內政委員會排審有時候跟我們說要在教文委員會排審"},{"start":6783.374,"end":6808.664,"text":"那我覺得剛剛秀寶他提醒這個很重要的一件事那我覺得其實大家的整個討論當中起義性最大最沒有共識的就是主管機關所以我必須要表達這個意見那也希望這個意見未來能夠在我們的原住民族學校法也能夠被討論看見好那我們還有沒有意見如果沒有我們就主條好不好好那我們就主條提供其個人資料"},{"start":6810.12,"end":6824.987,"text":"好 OK沒有異議沒有異議好審計三秒沒有異議好那關於這個提案我們就通過那我們主條第一案因為剛才提到的意見都跟主條立刻就可以討論到了好"},{"start":6826.548,"end":6855.162,"text":"那我們針對第一個法案名稱那我們看到以上14案裡面有13案名稱是一樣的人工智慧基本法草案那有一案是人工智慧發展及管理條例草案那我想我們是不是建議就以比較多的為主還是怎麼樣 有沒有意見好 沒有意見那我們就依人工智慧基本法草案作為這個名稱那趙 葛如君 邱若驊 羅廷偉 萬美玲"},{"start":6860.912,"end":6877.55,"text":"謝謝主席 因為剛才我在第二輪的回答當中有去提到說我們人工智慧發展管理條例草案最重要的意思就在於說它目前是因應到台灣的發展是以應用為主"},{"start":6878.331,"end":6901.398,"text":"那因此這個部分我們是希望能夠保留本黨團的意見是希望能夠保留名稱但是依照最後所呈現出來的一個法案的主條討論出來的一個結果再回去看這邊部分我希望說現在暫時保留這樣的方式來處理希望得到委員的部分就是說名稱這個我們剛剛最後部分因為最後的部分的時候是什麼樣子目前都還在討論這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":6903.038,"end":6925.009,"text":"好謝謝劉淑冰委員發言那我想法案名稱我們就保留送院會處理好那第一張張名呢有賴世寶委員有寫總則台灣民眾黨黨團也有寫總則那這個這樣子算起來有12案呢是沒有總則的那我們有沒有委員有意見"},{"start":6926.325,"end":6946.398,"text":"好 許志傑委員您的是沒有總責的對 謝謝其實這一個案子我們在交通委員會也討論了很久那這一個地方的主管機關當然在委會這邊不好意思 趙偉那是第二條第二條會討論到 謝謝"},{"start":6949.748,"end":6965.801,"text":"我們現在是在討論第一章張明現在已經進入第一條了對 總則那您的版本是沒有總則那賴思寶委員有總則台灣民眾黨黨團是有總則我們現在那您剛剛提的這個意見可以在第二條立刻就可以提出想法"},{"start":6967.436,"end":6981.26,"text":"那主席因為您本黨有總則那這部分我想說說也是一併處理好嗎好那我們就這個第一張章名呢我們就保留送院會處理好那我們接下來進入第一條那第一條呢我們來"},{"start":6990.576,"end":6997.64,"text":"每個人都有版本那這個是他的目的啦 立法目的那關於這一條有沒有意見 好 柯資恩委員"},{"start":7004.184,"end":7030.618,"text":"我觉得第一条虽然大家版本的用词那个wording是不一样不过它最主要的立法的目的是要纳入数位平权的一个概念然后我想很多的委员不管国民党还是民进党委员这个时候在写第一条的时候都是遵照在国科会当初所立定的部分只是在词意上面有不一样所以请主席稍微看一下如果说大家觉得因为我光是看第一页当中杨求宇委员的版本跟葛如君的版本还有后面"},{"start":7032.3,"end":7043.474,"text":"這個許志傑的版本等等你會看到他們的字句其實都大同小異就只是一個蘇慧平權所以是不是在這個WORDING部分大家把它改好一點我覺得第一條是可以得到最大的共識的好不好好"},{"start":7048.46,"end":7071.586,"text":"我看其實像萬美玲委員也有提到國家文化價值那招委林一錦招委也有提到文化價值確實是非常有共性的那國民生活福祉等等那許宇珍委員也有提到國家文化價值那許志傑委員的"},{"start":7073.562,"end":7080.845,"text":"是 也是有提到國家主權 文化價值其實第一條是幾乎一樣是有共識的好 那我頂而已啦 謝謝張雅琳委員 再來吳佩儀委員好 謝謝"},{"start":7097.685,"end":7113.05,"text":"我想這個可能也不是只有Warding啦我覺得這個基本的立法的概念上面就有點不太一樣因為像葛國軍委員是為建設智慧國家這個目的性是為了建設智慧國家而是因為國歌會或是其他像張家俊委員的版本或是邱若驊委員的版本"},{"start":7113.41,"end":7135.695,"text":"它是促進以人為本不該侵害人的生命財產等等等等以及要提升這個國家的永續發展和競爭力我覺得這個在開宗明義上面就有差異啦所以我是認為這一條上面我們應該還是要再做一些釐清到底是要以建設智慧國家呢還是以人為本這個來做這一條的這個的終止這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":7139.656,"end":7167.746,"text":"好吳佩儀委員然後待會兒郭玉琴委員您請召委在第一條當中其實我們就看到很多版本在他的這個法到底是基本法還是作用法還是特別法其實就相當的差異很大並不如剛剛所說的只是文字差異我舉例而言林倩琪委員吳宗憲委員賴世寶委員楊瓊英委員還有民眾黨委員的版本在第一條第一段最後都有定說"},{"start":7169.386,"end":7196.133,"text":"這個本法就是為規定者適用其他法律之規定這個就是指說變成這一條AI我們現在這條法變成有優先適用性這個就是特別法的特性啦這跟我們剛剛講的基本法又不一樣然後民政黨黨團版本的第一條這個最後一段有說對於軍事用途所發展之人工智慧不是用本法之規定就是如果它是基本法不是作用法的話就不涉及到監管"},{"start":7197.173,"end":7212.01,"text":"所以其實根本也不需要特別去寫說要排除軍事用途所以我認為其實這根本就沒有共識所以以第一條而言的話我具體建議就是保留那郭玉琴委員我們保留宋協商還是郭玉琴委員您先發言您剛剛有舉手"},{"start":7215.305,"end":7232.359,"text":"於應用前執政的活動不適用前向應用責任相關規範以利技術進行我們看到這個第一條包含像吳宗憲委員的一個版本他說特制定本法然後本法為規定者適用其他法律之規定"},{"start":7232.879,"end":7254.987,"text":"然後再來像葛如君委員召委的一個版本其實是為了要建設智慧國家那我想這個還有部分的是講說要以人為本那我想這個第一條應該是整部法律的一個精神所在啦可是現在其實我們光是這短短的幾行文字都會出現各個不同的一個版本那我想這個台灣又是一個多元多語的一個"},{"start":7256.207,"end":7281.446,"text":"社會喔其實光是這個部分我們其實就覺得除了剛剛這些東西我們是不是也要再加強民主國家可推動可信任的AI的一個治理基礎那我想這個這個部分光第一條其實大家的意見都這麼多是不是應該要先保留啊好謝謝我們召委林益錦召委然後再來許志杰委員然後范雲委員好謝謝召委大家好"},{"start":7283.318,"end":7308.055,"text":"現在美國他們日本他們訂的AI基本法是比較嚴格比較寬鬆他訂一個概念這個概念其實不是去管那麼多的細節那現在就是其他委員的版本就是有些是比較屬於偏美日這一邊的概念那有一邊是比較偏英國他們那邊的概念"},{"start":7309.519,"end":7335.038,"text":"那事實上就是說其實我們這個基本主張其實就不太一樣那現在世界上各個不同的國家的主張也都還不太一樣大家都還在摸索當中所以我是建議說這一個其實我們還是保留不要有結論因為現在這個結論出去了恐怕將來整個世界的潮流怎麼轉變你不知道"},{"start":7336.139,"end":7343.062,"text":"所以我主張這一條,我們還是沒有共識,還是要保留我們剛剛講說什麼70%一樣,這就是一個量的概念,沒有看到值的差異啊"},{"start":7352.006,"end":7367.398,"text":"就是我們剛講的到底他在譬如說民眾黨這是一個作用法還是基本法那然後他的目的是智慧國家還是以人為本的相關的應用保障一些權益這其實精神上就像我們剛說的你是走一個"},{"start":7367.938,"end":7393.527,"text":"歐盟的路線然後現在英國也喊卡然後歐盟也有部分的條文就是希望能夠暫停下來主要就是在這裡面的一個衝突那到底對台灣來講譬如說我們有個資法那這個部分到底是變成優先適用這個部分還是它只是一個基本的原則那其他我們的個資法等等還是要保障一些人權就是相關的"},{"start":7395.789,"end":7409.224,"text":"就是 意旨我想這部分就是有蠻大的衝突所以這不是只是說大家都講平權那事實上剛剛主席召委沒有提到的林英錦委員還特別強調的國家的主權"},{"start":7411.266,"end":7438.415,"text":"那這個重要的概念在有些委員的版本中就沒有所以我覺得這個光從這個第一條就看到很大的差異那我也要提一下就是剛剛有委員講到好像不提這個基本法就沒有在發展這是一個很大的一個誤導就是我們應該要問的是哪件事情我們要關心的譬如說速發部沒有在做國科會沒有在做還是教育部沒有在做而不要誤導大家說現在就是"},{"start":7440.095,"end":7459.523,"text":"行政沒有這個版本就是沒有在做哪些事還是回來講其實我之前也有版本那為什麼我現在沒有提那就是因為目前這個方向其實我們看到的一些值得學習的民主國家都還在猶豫當中那我想這是一個很大的問題譬如說我之前也有質詢過"},{"start":7461.304,"end":7472.294,"text":"就是速發部還有國科會文化部據說CHAT GBT這個部分跟版權之間的衝突怎麼解決那這也是我們相關的文化產業非常關心的問題這個版權我們在第15條也有提到"},{"start":7476.698,"end":7502.637,"text":"那我想這一條第一條啦本條為立法目的其實各版本差異真的不大本席的版本呢是特別強調數位平權那民進黨委員有強調國家主權也好或者是文化價值也好那我們其實有跟速發部溝通啦速發部有表示同意本席的版本那或者是不表示意見那這個若是在場委員有特別意見要納入立法目的的文字可以請速發部現在同"},{"start":7503.177,"end":7527.512,"text":"同枕各個版本提出建議版文字給各位委員參考各位一邊同枕那個我想那次講的是說我不表示意見不表示特別意見因為我知道這個差異好好 所以速發部對第一條不表示特別意見好 那我想我們這一條是不是就保留送院會處理好我們前面都是保留送院會處理"},{"start":7530.322,"end":7546.339,"text":"我們前面都是保留送 反正名稱保留送宴會處理第一張張名保留送宴會處理然後現在第一條是保留送宴會處理我們現在保留是委員會之後還要再寫一條啊"},{"start":7547.296,"end":7572.232,"text":"不能直接送委員會處理啊保留協商我們是保留委員會還要再協商啊後續那個黨團還要再協商委員會的結論啊對啊不是直接送委員會處理啊保留送委員會協商保留協商好保留協商委員區委員長二十人提案第十一好沒有轉總好"},{"start":7575.518,"end":7598.84,"text":"謝謝范雲委員也謝謝各位先進前輩那我想我們法案名稱我們保留宋協商第一張章名保留宋協商第一條也保留宋協商那前面我們剛剛是唸宋院會處理那現在是全部宋協商根據風險分級評估前在座點擊"},{"start":7600.965,"end":7607.974,"text":"那你提升人工智慧決策這個問題是要做什麼?送出委員會協商啊"},{"start":7609.305,"end":7632.477,"text":"送出委員會協商喔?沒有錯,召委我補充一下啦其實各委員會都一樣啦,不講哪一邊今天保留我們就送出委員會那一個月冷凍期一個月冷凍期完畢之後由召委可以再由委員會名義召集一次的黨團協商黨團協商完沒有共識可以再送給院長院長再召集黨團協商"},{"start":7633.658,"end":7658.63,"text":"那院長召集黨員協商也沒有共識的話在院會處理但通常我覺得這基本法部分那個時候我們希望在委員會協商的時候速發布就可以提出院的版本好不好好我這裡再界定一下因為我想我們教育委員會雖然有這個傳統但是在議事規則上面我確實這裡我們就是保留送院會處理但是院會會教"},{"start":7660.231,"end":7689.335,"text":"教我們來做黨團協商那我們委員會可能會召開黨團會召開這我想我們就照過去的慣例來處理啦那我文字上我想因為議事委員給我的是保留送院會處理那我想大家都理解這個意思我們就一起同意好不好因為協商也是院會讓我們請交下來請我們協商好不好好 謝謝那我想我再"},{"start":7693.686,"end":7717.904,"text":"我是建議昭緯你就先講保留因為像我們過去有很多條文在第一回合討論完之後回來也許會有共識啊不是現在就總不會送一半送幾條去院會吧你就先保留就可以了啊那到最後再決定是要怎麼處理啊學夫法我們後來就在柯志恩昭緯的協調下我們在委員會就解決啦好啦"},{"start":7720.559,"end":7728.229,"text":"保留送出委員會啊暫保留"},{"start":7731.443,"end":7755.006,"text":"你現在就保留送協商就好了因為我們之前都會一輪兩輪就是保留送協商嘛協商委員會會先協商嘛那客戶司可以再來處理決定要不要怎麼對 你先保留好 那我們就保留好 那我們就保留先保留那我們法案名稱保留第一張張名保留第一條保留好 那我們現在第二條吳宗憲"},{"start":7756.557,"end":7778.79,"text":"那我想第二條剛剛各個委員也都充分發表意見了,我們就保留吧。那我們在此還是說明一下,就是這個相關也希望我們能夠更快的有共識,這個發展創新,當然也要兼顧我們的風險分類,有這個台灣價值台灣模式。"},{"start":7779.77,"end":7795.563,"text":"那我們再來進入第三條第三條我想大家也都差異不大那也是"},{"start":7797.199,"end":7811.972,"text":"非常感謝國科會當時有做整理張雅琳委員謝謝因為其實呢在第三條裡面我自己的想法是說因為其實每個人在定義人工智慧上面包含像林倩琪委員定義的非常的精細然後包含或者是說像葛無菌委員這時候寫說"},{"start":7813.653,"end":7839.782,"text":"以機器為基礎的系統於不同程度下之自主性運作可是在秋洛華委員又說據自主運行的能力之系統那我想確認一下我們到底要以哪一個版本因為這看起來是有點落差那再來就是說其實民間也有一些建議就是說我們是要講自主運作嗎因為具完全自主運作能力作為要件恐怕會過度的限制適用的範圍"},{"start":7841.683,"end":7863.279,"text":"是不是應該要來像自動車有不同等級的劃分所以是不是應該要來去做一些增定視為是一定的程度而不是直接寫自主運作所以有兩個問題到底是以哪一個版本來討論然後第二個就是說在現在如果是自主性運作的話我們是不是應該要增加一定程度好 謝謝"},{"start":7872.684,"end":7887.892,"text":"因為第三條我們看到比方說像葛如君昭委你剛剛有講這個不同程度的自主性跟可能展現適應性這些字眼看起來好像很完整但是在法律的操作上會不會容易有更多的解釋空間"},{"start":7888.712,"end":7903.188,"text":"然後另外像剛剛這個林倩琦會民眾黨的版本他們也試圖要把這些所謂的技術跟名詞來做定義那他寫說這個監督是學習知識庫推理引擎什麼優化演算等等"},{"start":7903.769,"end":7932.3,"text":"那這看起來好像很齊全可是不要忘了現在寫死這些詞這個三年後的技術可能馬上就會被淘汰了所以現在以前大家都在講說什麼機器學習現在要講什麼深層式的AI強化學習等等但是問題是我們從這個國際的經驗看就不管是在他們的建議我們應該定義要聚焦在它的功能性跟風險性而不是這些名詞的細節性這是以上我的建議以上"},{"start":7933.901,"end":7954.018,"text":"好謝謝吳佩儀委員那這個這一個我同意就第三條剛剛前面大家提到的因為是基本法然後我們主要是要來支持AI的運作機制所以不要訂到太細節所以這一條我是比較支持林怡瑾跟許志傑委員的版本啦"},{"start":7954.338,"end":7982.119,"text":"就是說舊AI主要的運作機制來訂定就好了不要進到太細節這個有可能會限縮到將來它應用的空間好 那我們魯明哲委員也到場有要發言嗎還是羅金鶴委員有舉手好 羅金鶴委員因為這一條我覺得是大家都寫得非常用心那當然有人寫得很精細所以我覺得還是有一些差異那我是建議要保留"},{"start":7982.839,"end":7997.172,"text":"那魯明哲委員謝謝好張雅玲委員然後是許智傑委員然後徐富奎委員要發言嗎沒有好所以張雅玲委員許智傑委員劉書斌委員范雲委員好那我們簡短發表意見"},{"start":8008.303,"end":8026.417,"text":"我想確認一件事情因為我們這個是AI基本法可是我們把這一條人工智慧的定義放在第三是不是應該要把它放在第二因為應該要開宗明義就延續著第一條的概念下來先定在第二條然後再定到它的主管機關這個是我的建議可以考慮剛剛有許志杰委員 謝謝謝謝主席我覺得我們在討論這裡都有一點"},{"start":8035.868,"end":8041.633,"text":"我剛剛一開始就提到全世界各國現在都有兩派兩大派"},{"start":8042.89,"end":8068.036,"text":"不同的角度那我們的角度就是像我的版本的角度就是監管比較寬鬆不要那麼嚴格的定太細那包括林憲起還有其他國民黨委員就是你們是定比較細我覺得我們一條一條在這邊討論這些東西其實全世界各國都還沒都還在摸索台灣要這麼急著把這些東西都定死嗎"},{"start":8069.467,"end":8088.254,"text":"所以我是認為說其實這一點我們還是保留啦其實還是暫緩我們看全世界的潮流我們要怎麼樣去拿捏一個最好的方式再來做最後的確定所以後面其實每一條全部都類似啦所以我是建議還是保留謝謝"},{"start":8090.476,"end":8094.26,"text":"第三條是指的是人工智慧的一些定義不過我們也參考到是說本黨裡面的這個意見當中就是把這個"},{"start":8108.214,"end":8126.234,"text":"人工智慧相關的這個系統它的一個定義就把它列出來包括人工智慧人工智慧產業巨量資料個人資料還有人工智慧安全這部分相關的部分把在這樣的一個第三條屬於一個定義的部分把它呈現出來那我們希望能夠保留謝謝好謝謝范議員謝謝"},{"start":8131.919,"end":8156.992,"text":"這條我的意見跟許智傑委員剛剛講的非常的就是一樣其實應該要以儉遇反因為如果你太細緻的去處理各個定義的話日新月異就如同我們剛剛講的我們一兩年前可能覺得我們要盡速立法可是現在看到歐盟跟英國都有一些不同的聲音英國甚至停下來暫緩去"},{"start":8158.973,"end":8181.701,"text":"就是列這個去提這個基本法等等那我覺得那歐盟他的操作如果是作用法的話歐盟的很多的指引也沒有出來就是因為變化太快了那我想我們應該要問的是說大家想要發展的話應該是全民共識是不分黨派的那有哪些部會哪些事情沒有在做那如果今天就一定要繼續"},{"start":8183.762,"end":8206.423,"text":"審這個法案的話那第三條我比較支持許智傑委員林盈菁委員跟邱英委員的一個比較以儉遇凡的版本那我想在這個時間點上一定要立的話那是這樣子那我要提一下為什麼我沒有提我的版本就是因為這個變化太大了光是這個月我們就看到英國暫緩就是提出立他們的版本那這是重要的一個考量"},{"start":8207.243,"end":8234.101,"text":"好 謝謝 林錦昭委謝主席喔我是第二條啦齁因為我沒有這個主管機關的很多人的第二條是主管機關我沒有這個主管機關的第二條所以是你們的第三條我的第二條那是有關於定義那當然看起來各版本有差不多的共通點那我就點"},{"start":8236.043,"end":8255.524,"text":"簡單點出來的第一個就是自主性的系統第二個要經過感測或輸入第三個就是能夠影響實體或虛擬環境第四個是有目標的產生預測內容建議或決策那我想到這裡大家應該都還同意那可是確切的文字描述因為我的版本跟許智傑的"},{"start":8256.984,"end":8272.55,"text":"委員的版本是比較一致的我想如果就文字而言如果速發部沒有辦法提供比較相對確切的文字的話那是不是我覺得我跟許志傑委員的版本其實是可以比較"},{"start":8273.79,"end":8295.889,"text":"就是我認為會比較妥適了以上好謝謝那我想第二條我們就因為大家都有意見都有意義那有不同的想法我們就第二條就保留那待會第三條不好意思我們就第三條就保留那接下來我們各條如果有意義的話有意見我們就直接保留好"},{"start":8296.63,"end":8313.85,"text":"那我們接下來第二章的章名那一樣我們賴思寶委員有一個章名叫發展與促進那台灣民眾黨黨團人工智慧發展之基本原則那有沒有意義好有意義我們就保留好那接下來第四條"},{"start":8315.091,"end":8335.103,"text":"那第四條呢,是這個我們剛剛提到,就是有非常多人關注我們的這個不管是原住民的福祉、國民的這個發展,還有兒少等等,其實第四條各個委員都有非常多的這個設定,包含這個張家俊委員有提到人類自主,"},{"start":8335.743,"end":8359.224,"text":"那這個民進黨 台灣民眾黨團呢有考量到身心障礙者 高齡者 兒童那許智傑召委呢也有提到隱私資料保護的機敏性 永續性 公平性那剛剛這個像邱怡穎委員也有提到這個跟許智傑委員相似的想法他也有提到公平與不歧視"},{"start":8360.305,"end":8384.097,"text":"那吳宗憲委員呢也非常重視的是安全原則保障人民的生命身體自由財產安全包容原則就有多元性嘛多元包容所以其實我想這條第四條的部分其實速發部是應該是沒有特別意見吧我們這條"},{"start":8390.033,"end":8399.546,"text":"我們這個是有意見表達意見是不是那我想我們有意見的話我們就保留我覺得我還是有必要幫團體來發聲因為這是團體的意見簡短發言好不好"},{"start":8403.01,"end":8425.924,"text":"好 因為其實我之所以沒有提出我的版本是因為我們一直都在跟團體一直不停的討論但是因為團體針對這一條是有意見的齁而上團體認為我們應該要增訂第一項的第八款雖然說大家在各個的條文裡面有提到兒童但是其實兒童裡面有一個最佳性的最佳利益原則應該要被名列在這件事情讓大家在做一些相關的應用的時候不會去影響"},{"start":8426.624,"end":8446.911,"text":"或是犧牲到兒少最佳利益所以他們希望在這一條裡面增訂第八款是人工智慧研發與應用涉及兒少時應以兒少利益為原則預防心理隱私人格權數位剝削及其他潛在侵害並應提供符合其年齡之適當保護措施與資訊揭露這是團體的建議范雲委員 劉淑檳委員"},{"start":8455.054,"end":8478.57,"text":"這個部分我也是特別的覺得就是跟歧視相關的部分明文化很重要那因為我們這個三四五條都有相關的就是談到就是跟歧視的部分我就一起講那我想我們這一次就是說如果在AI基本法裡面應該要定下這些原則性的避免歧視也要有性平的觀點那我舉例來講全國歷史聯合會就建議"},{"start":8485.275,"end":8510.009,"text":"那必須在條文中或至少在立法理由裡面要提出哪些特定群體譬如說身心障礙、原住民、婦女、多元性別等等以避免未來條文解釋上的歧義那另外這是實質內容的部分我覺得蠻重要的那另外我也建議召委如果我們每條都保留的話我是建議就是說這樣子"},{"start":8510.689,"end":8539.099,"text":"有點 還是要實質討論啊要不然你到時候你不管是送到我們委員會的協商那到時候能到的人也比較少或者是你要送到黨團協商那這樣子我們教文委員跟交通委員我們的實質意見都沒有機會表達欸那我想我們教文委員過去都是實質在討論的我們從來不會有一個就是法案是每條都保留然後就這樣子審下去上次我們在那個 不會一直記不記得我們後來就留在委員會中"},{"start":8540.279,"end":8566.517,"text":"那就是说如果每条都保留那我们送出去给党团协商真的很不负责任因为我们是最能够对实质的不管是交通委员或者教育委员表达意见的人那我们不去处理条文的差异就保留然后最后每条都保留我是觉得这样子不太好以上我简短回应一下首先我们保留如果有协商其实也还是可以做讨论完整的讨论第二我们先前也有完整的讨论"},{"start":8567.378,"end":8591.204,"text":"第三我想這個我們連第一章的這個總則我們前面全部都是我們都有希望能夠有共識但是如果我們連這個相關的這個連這個第一章的章名可能都沒有共識的話我想這個也許保留就是他需要處理的方法那我們接下來請劉書斌委員謝謝"},{"start":8597.929,"end":8607.821,"text":"謝謝主席那民眾黨這個部分呢我想要提出來一個問題因為在這個基本法當中沒有看到職權的部分"},{"start":8609.142,"end":8609.302,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":8640.543,"end":8644.566,"text":"那我希望說如果大家有共識的話其實就是可以把我們這邊也放進去"},{"start":8661.838,"end":8677.125,"text":"也許是看到整個狀況是不是那麼的詳細但是可能有些部分可以把它放進去就在標題的呈現內容當中可以放入就這樣子所以也希望說有保留但是我真的希望說能夠針對職權的部分大家真的要考慮一下是不是已經疏漏了"},{"start":8678.066,"end":8696.068,"text":"謝謝無費議委員第一個我是想要提這個程序的問題我希望這個會議的主持要中立因為像剛剛這一條本來召委是沒有要開放討論但是您個人在主持的當中其實就發表很多您個人的意見所以我希望原則要一致"},{"start":8696.428,"end":8709.804,"text":"要不然就是大家都不要意見但是要不然就大家都來討論第二點剛剛蕭委所說這個之前很多都討論過但是今天再發言再討論也沒有共識所以你認為要保留這前半部分我是同意的那也就是為什麼我們剛剛主張說這個應該之後再來進逐條"},{"start":8713.168,"end":8740.329,"text":"因為就是差異很大就說我們剛剛前面第一條 第二條 第三條呈現出來的都是再討論也沒有共識嘛就是說今天版本差異真的很大並不是說只是文字的差異而已所以我們剛剛才會主張不要進到主條但是既然要進到主條你又以說因為差異太大所以再討論也沒共識所以每一條都要保留所以不討論這個我覺得前後是矛盾的所以我希望大家還是可以再重新思考一下就是剛剛許智傑委員很多人都提到了"},{"start":8740.629,"end":8763.919,"text":"其實大家的版本的不同不是指在於文字的差異而是它的這個立法的體系到底我們是希望規範多一點還是說這個知識發展多一點到底是基本法還是作用法還是特別法這個我們前面沒有共識的話我們每一條都會進入到剛剛這樣子就是沒有辦法有共識我希望大家可以再三思啦好 謝謝吳佩儀委員"},{"start":8764.679,"end":8776.861,"text":"那我相信後續說不定還有機會啦因為有一些速發部是有表達意見的也許我們還有機會可以來通過那我們第四條就保留那待會一樣那我們這個第五條那第五條呢大家關注的主要是這個"},{"start":8791.138,"end":8802.206,"text":"可能有多元的包容啦就是針對多元包容跟不同的條件這個基本上是接近數位平權的概念"},{"start":8804.008,"end":8821.783,"text":"那大家其實反而這一條的相似度是非常高的只有WORDING那我們是期待速發部可以整合出一個版本那速發部對第五條有沒有要表示特別意見或者是要協助整合因為這個包容其實就都包進去的話就是最包容的我們有"},{"start":8830.441,"end":8853.506,"text":"好 那我們就領請召委 郭巨型委員跟柯志恩委員 謝謝這個第五條 當然是葛維軍召委的第五條可是是我的第十三條 是許志傑召委的第十四條所以這個整個法 這個條次的安排 其實是歧義性很大好 那我們來說這一條的內容 就是有關於平等與保障"},{"start":8854.366,"end":8874.052,"text":"那我是認為當然優先考量身心障礙者、高齡者跟兒童及其他需要協助族群的權益這是參考學界的意見來的那我看其他委員的版本當然也都有類似的文字誠如葛昭偉所說的這個條文的內容確實是"},{"start":8879.073,"end":8898.439,"text":"大同小異可是就調次來講就調次來講是很大的歧義所以我是覺得整部法我還是堅持說如果有院版出來那醫院版的調次因為整個調次的安排是有整個的法理可循那有這個體力可循"},{"start":8898.959,"end":8912.076,"text":"所以我覺得這個條次的不同然後怎麼安排這個確實是對一個法案是非常重要的那當然就內容來講如果就平等於保障這個弱勢的保護這點我覺得看起來是有共識的以上"},{"start":8913.372,"end":8937.466,"text":"謝謝有共識好那那個郭玉琴委員剛剛有舉手發言然後再來柯志恩委員好我想這個第五條因為在強調這個數位平權的部分那剛剛就像怡心委員講的其實就是調適的部分其實有的人是放在第十三條那我就這個葛國軍召委跟羅廷偉版本他寫說機會平等的基本人權宣誓"},{"start":8938.246,"end":8965.904,"text":"但是問題是這個裡面沒有講所謂的實質的做法那當然我們講保障平等這是一定是必要的可是不是光只寫說依法令辦理或者是依法令特別保障好像感覺就已經OK了這個其實也會造成所謂的在執行的時候其實那個落差還是會更大那我們怎麼樣讓那個弱勢的族群在這個政策制定的時候有發生的一個空間才是真正能夠落實這個AI數位平權"},{"start":8968.446,"end":8992.715,"text":"那我想如果要针对所谓的高龄者啦或者是原住民啦或者是身障者来推动所谓的这个AI辅助的一个科技那我想呢这个部分我们可能还要再强化还要再更细项啦那就刚刚这个移行委员也特别讲的调次跟内容其实大家都放在不同的地方我们要怎么样今天会让它有共识所以我真的不知道这个主条到底是在讨论什么好 以上"},{"start":8993.075,"end":9015.421,"text":"好 柯志文委员其实好我们先从内容来说好了这个移警委员的部分跟葛如君的部分其实你们都完全展现了平等跟保障只是葛如君的版本里面又多了一个原住民他的包容度还有他的范围的界定其实是更完整的所以大家其实可以来做一个考虑所以提到调词就再一次的"},{"start":9016.061,"end":9041.815,"text":"图显院板的确是很重要那今天为什么会做到这样的程度就是左等右等没有院板所以说赵伟最主要目的是透过这样子你说他没有意义吗他还是有意义啊因为他到时候到时候我们真的有院板来的时候我们今天所谈论大家的一个想法其实都可以提供在院板过程当中给大家说法的一个非常重要的一个考量否则没有的话没有这个步骤的话"},{"start":9042.515,"end":9070.561,"text":"我们要等到什么时候所以我觉得有些时候委员会可以促使这个行政单位的部分里面更能够加速他们这样子的一个运作所以以回到这个调次当然因为像目前没有院版所以调次的确有很大的一个分歧但是在内容的程度当中的话比对几个重要的版本我个人觉得就是在这个族群的层面里面特别把原住民放进去其他的部分里面其实都可以得到非常高的一个共识的"},{"start":9075.431,"end":9087.109,"text":"這裡面沒有放到婦女跟多元性別那只有葛國軍委員用性別可是你可以看到林益菁委員跟許志堅委員的意旨跟葛國軍委員不太一樣"},{"start":9087.589,"end":9111.857,"text":"林一鈞委員跟徐志傑是說要優先考量所以他是把一些群體的權益覺得是特別弱勢要特別拉出來的那跟董如君委員是像憲法的寫法無分什麼什麼什麼一律都要平等接近是不太一樣的所以我們到底是要採一個優先特別要考量特別的弱勢還是就是把所有想到的差異譬如說邱瑩委員還有針對偏鄉對不對傳統產業那又是不同的一個寫法"},{"start":9117.219,"end":9133.674,"text":"那我想問的是說那速發部或者是國歌會有沒有既有的研究告訴我們在這個AI的發展的過程中哪些群體是特別有弱勢然後沒有接近到的因為我們有一些調查的基礎才能夠知道在這裡"},{"start":9134.335,"end":9151.749,"text":"我是要走怡君委員跟許智傑委員的方向把一些特別弱勢的比如說是身心障礙高齡者兒童這是怡君委員跟許智傑的寫法還是要針對葛國軍委員人無分性別年齡等等等等那要不要再把邱毅英委員的偏鄉怎麼拉進來那這總要有一個一個一個實證研究吧"},{"start":9154.471,"end":9172.242,"text":"否則我們就是在這邊就是窮盡一切嗎那然後我們是要優先保障某些弱勢還是走一個無分什麼的一律平等的一個抽象性的原則的寫法我覺得這個差異就蠻大的待會我會請那個速發部或是主管機關發言但是要不要許智傑委員要先發言還是我們就讓部會官員好許智傑委員謝謝謝謝主持人"},{"start":9182.998,"end":9212.264,"text":"剛剛那個柯政委員提到說我們這個委員會可以讓行政單位不要怠惰要趕快啦其實這邊有一篇文就是世界有一篇文章那個Guardian然後The Verge還有那個幾個來源其實這邊提到的重點我是覺得讓各位思考一下啦為觀察美國AI政策走向英國延後推動AI監督法案"},{"start":9214.344,"end":9239.981,"text":"再來就是說英國到底想要什麼樣的AI法案呢這邊有兩個概念一個就是說歐盟面對時事壓力考慮延後部分法規生效然後當然美國這個比較寬鬆的法案也有引起美國預算法案長10年AI監管法令引發廣泛反彈這個就是說他們比較專業的雜誌表達這個意見我有大家做參考啦就是說你現在"},{"start":9244.383,"end":9265.865,"text":"美國跟歐盟兩大系統的觀念不一樣到底是怎樣最好其實現在這AI變化這麼快速我們是在抓說要怎樣最好結果現在這世界兩大系統都已經抓不出來要怎樣最好已經有紛爭了你現在叫數位部、數法部推出一個版本出來他推出來他也不知道要用哪一個還是說要怎樣平衡"},{"start":9267.699,"end":9282.443,"text":"所以我是覺得這個法案坦白講我是認為大家真的不要急啦就是說我比較主張其實全難保留下次再組條那這個當然就是說看世界的發展的動態怎麼樣我們來做一個根據台灣文化還是說根據世界潮流可以拿捏一個平衡點現在我們每個人沒有一個人說的準就是說誰說的是對的啦"},{"start":9295.598,"end":9323.214,"text":"所以我是建議說其實你乾脆全案保留那下次再組條那當然就是說樹花部要很積極的去看這個世界上的動態到底會怎麼走我們其實台灣當然我們科技很強啦但是台灣也沒有這麼偉大說我就是世界走第一啦所以這個部分我是認為說大家真的可以考慮一下世界的潮流而不是你跟我我們幾個人在這邊決定就把它定下來我是這麼認為"},{"start":9325.831,"end":9346.077,"text":"好 我很快強調說實在的這個AI基本法當初是責成我們國科會國科會花了非常多時間他們有非常多的專家學者所以他們花了很多時間擬定了這樣一個基本的一個條例才給我們我們才看到如果像許智杰委員說 安宮是在野僅僅是英國都覺得說目前為止不適合"},{"start":9349.578,"end":9367.576,"text":"我觉得也可以啊行政单位就站出来讲我们配合目前世界的潮流瞬息万变没有办法透过一个法我就行政单位讲一句话忙浪费安素发布跟国客会这样子已经花了这么多时间在这讨论如果觉得现在不合适然后也不就告诉我们嘛"},{"start":9368.197,"end":9377.124,"text":"以目前此時此刻配合世界潮流不適合在這個地方做出這樣的決議我們應該用什麼什麼方法那就不要浪費大家的時間啊這也是吉德洪寬嗎 行政部門講一句話嘛行政部門站出來講一句話 現在不合適這樣看要怎麼樣 這也都是一個方法我們今天就是坐在這個地方要有一個態度 好不好我們對人民做個交代啊 補充一下"},{"start":9394.878,"end":9414.19,"text":"我們是不是讓部會講啊可以嗎許智傑稍微好 那個我想速發部國科會能不能因為其實是有共識的因為這一條我們也怕民眾誤會說我們不去保護他們因為現在沒有一個框架這些人全部都被落後在人工智慧之後"},{"start":9415.236,"end":9433.479,"text":"那是不是速發部跟這個國客會可不可以共同擬出一個共識的條文如果不行也許照柯子惠委員講的你們可以在此對所有的委員全民說此時這個我們不要利益在基本法不宜因為我們這個民進黨委員可能也要跟賴清德"},{"start":9434.5,"end":9449.492,"text":"主席交代因為他是二月講優先法案國民黨委員我們也很早就提案所以我們也非常重視民眾黨他們也非常重視就我們不能讓這個我們現在是在討論多元的範圍好那我們請這個兩個部會好因為我就少講話好部長部長然後待會國會主委那個"},{"start":9457.297,"end":9483.739,"text":"報告委員那個 張偉那個我常委開頭我就講了因為為什麼就是從去年11月多就送院以後一直都沒辦法達成共識就是因為國際有幾個事情在發生一個就是說國際的情勢變化很多第二個是技術變化很快我特別講說當初我們在訂AI基本法的時候那時候只有變式AI還沒有生成式AI"},{"start":9484.139,"end":9504.198,"text":"就聲稱是AI出來後 當初所想的規範都不對所以因為現在甚至可以擁有很多又牽涉到著作權 牽涉到很多隱私的問題所以確實有很多東西因為這些技術產生帶動了很多其他相關法律的問題所以就變成我們在做的時候會產生這樣的一個疑慮現在定 因為未來還有叫做Agentic AI"},{"start":9504.618,"end":9528.596,"text":"代理是AI他會還有機器人這個東西都在出來中所以我要擔心說技術還在快速發展現在是不是稍微觀望一下這是我們當初的想法那第二點就是說國際情勢也在變化因為剛剛講就是國際這幾年尤其是最近川普當選之後他的很多作為讓很多人擔心這個很多時候會不會造成"},{"start":9528.996,"end":9556.845,"text":"很多的問題 相對的問題所以因為我們也在觀察國際的情勢我們已經看到像英國 歐盟已經退步了所以事實上這個就是我們部裡面當初的一個concern所以才說在討論中而且又牽涉到跨部會包括剛剛講兒少 衛福等等的問題都需要跟各部會討論所以這些共識都還沒有完全所以我才會對這個現在定法有點保留"},{"start":9557.125,"end":9584.572,"text":"好 所以部長能不能擬一個共識的條文沒辦法對 這一條 多元的這一條我們現在是在對對對 所以沒有辦法擬嘛因為我們是在這一條底下所以我們要確認因為剛剛柯之恩委員是希望他可以來回應說到底現在是不是適合的時機點好 所以我現在接著就要問了所以我們是不是就不適合那種AI基本法"},{"start":9592.324,"end":9609.119,"text":"讓我們再跟行政院再討論再擇旗再把比較好 請國會主委請吳主委好不好目前是蘇發部主政那國會會協助 國會來協助主委"},{"start":9613.82,"end":9628.754,"text":"不好意思我們是在為國科會過去長期以來擬出這個基本的部分我在幫你們講話你怎麼現在全部都推給蘇發布蘇發布就到目前為止都給我這一份不想去把它做現在也都提不出來我也不曉得壓力在哪裡蘇發布目前為止今天要來開這個會裡面他們給我們就是給我們這張紙"},{"start":9634.639,"end":9659.956,"text":"那国客会是花那么多时间把每个条文都把它弄得清清楚楚你那时候在委员会的时候也不断地告诉我们你们到底做的花了多好的时间等等之类你今天不可以是这个样子你要为你们自己这么多国客会的同仁花了这么多时间然后认为AI这么重要1800亿都给你们你们才是一个最重要的单位怎么现在全部一改就给就是苏法部没有办法所以我们才是认为说"},{"start":9665.179,"end":9672.824,"text":"你應該展現你們自己族委裡面 國發會裡面所該有的爆發力 國發會裡面該有的潛力啊怎麼可以現在完全丟給速發部 速發部要是有辦法的話在2月26號就應該這地方起碼給我們幾條 給我們幾個部分 而不是只有到今天告訴我說瞬息萬變 這麼多 這麼多 這麼多 那你起碼可不可以給我們一下你們現在的進度 到底是如何 給我們看一下根據國科會的這些條文裡面 速發部直跡於國科會的條文裡面做了哪些的修正 做了哪些的部分"},{"start":9693.655,"end":9715.755,"text":"起碼讓我們看到 我覺得這個東西才是一個雙方部會裡面很負責任展現的方法嘛 對不對主委先補充吧 我看你拿麥克風我們還是會依照我們還是會依照行政程序在行政院確定以後會對 因為林議警召委有提到 您是政委"},{"start":9717.745,"end":9733.825,"text":"你是科技政委行政院還在討論當中剛剛那個黃部長有提到那我們還是會依照行政院的指示所以沒有辦法你這個共識條文然後可能現在也就有沒有針對剛剛的這個有沒有意見我沒有意見好那郭玉琴委員"},{"start":9734.666,"end":9757.702,"text":"其实刚刚术发部部长其实已经有讲得很清楚了他说现在是因为科技的瞬息万变所以当然我们还是持续的保持观望跟应变的一个弹性的一个部分来做操作那我想术发部刚刚其实也已经扛起责任了那国科会刚刚也讲得很清楚就是它是协助嘛那我觉得这样子的一个也能够"},{"start":9758.422,"end":9771.656,"text":"也比較明朗啦我們對於所謂的主管因為接著下來要討論的第六條又是跟主管警官有關的嘛那如果在這邊其實已經有共識了那接著下來第六條我們有一個比較共識的我們才知道說以後主管警官要怎麼樣來討論但是問題是今天每一條我們看到剛剛其實也講到"},{"start":9776.921,"end":9800.77,"text":"光是AI的部分它牽扯的不是只有速發部也不是只有國科會它還牽扯到教育部可能衛福部還有文化部還有經濟部甚至還有跟國安有相關的一些部會都有相關所以這並不是說只有在這兩位的部長的身上或者主委的身上而已所以我再次的想調就是說今天我們進到主條其實要有一個方向要有一個共識"},{"start":9801.59,"end":9811.822,"text":"光是竹條剛剛從短短幾行字我們都可以看到有這麼多不同的版本不同的意見那我覺得大家坐在這裡真的我覺得也是辛苦啦但是剛剛其實書發部他已經強調他們已經有要扛起責任的預備了嘛然後國客會也講我是有來輔助嘛因為這個也是我們其實也有"},{"start":9821.292,"end":9844.773,"text":"不是只有這個我們自己委員的版本不一樣那我們自己本身的態度其實也有傾向這樣子的一個這樣子的一個方式那接著下來我們就看嘛就是抒發過他這個時候怎麼樣來提出就是他們的這個跟行政院這邊有沒有什麼樣的願板我們再來進入主條會比較恰當啦好 以上好 謝榮介委員再來許智傑委員"},{"start":9848.087,"end":9869.449,"text":"這是一個快跑衝刺的比賽那如果你還在做馬拉松的準備喔實在是說是比較不好那整個樹花部如果有這個能力國科會就不用協助嘛非常的競爭那面臨很大的挑戰"},{"start":9870.882,"end":9891.29,"text":"那有能力的國科會如果你不承擔那如果在內部你硬要弄到樹花鋪來那最後面臨的困難會更多所以這是一個很現實的問題是大家要收聽什麼人要搭有靈略的人你如果不搭"},{"start":9895.698,"end":9908.123,"text":"有領略的人你不搭你到最後 如果今天縱監管那可以給蘇華部如果今天是縱發展那坦白講 閣科會你就是要搭起來這麼簡單 這沒什麼用啦主委 我要講 省擔"},{"start":9912.435,"end":9938.822,"text":"是為國家在搭,不是為某一個東牌在搭嘛為了今生的未來,為了台灣未來三十年的發展在搭嘛對不對啊你說你有什麼要搭,你只要愛他,到底什麼原因,我們不管啦你說啊沒有,如果輸了補啊,我可以來協助,這樣...但是表示你受到很大的委屈,我認為不需要,不需要"},{"start":9941.201,"end":9949.728,"text":"我哪有七折 我在說你七折我的意思 你說我七折別人的意思啊要怎麼七折 我是七折熱情的意思而已這是一個很嚴肅的課題嘛 不然你 總共 大家來拚幣嘛感覺事化部的那個被告課會比較強 我今天講這個我給你回這個嘛 對不對講什麼 聽什麼"},{"start":9970.583,"end":9996.289,"text":"我比較沒聽的算不算聽不一樣你們聽不像我一音 你要怎麼跟人家聽一樣啦許志傑委員謝謝主席我們意見不同 大家都互相尊重沒關係啦因為民主社會就是這樣嘛那當然就是說其實"},{"start":9998.139,"end":10004.665,"text":"我們之前我們提的版本就是比較屬於寬鬆一點啦國民黨的版本其實是比較油啦所以我說大原則是這樣啦當然每一個細節我們就不去論這些細節所以"},{"start":10017.762,"end":10020.808,"text":"我剛才說的是他們國營關卡有,他們現在覺得他們在考慮暫緩,這個不是說什麼人對什麼人不對的問題,是世界條例是這樣造嘛"},{"start":10028.035,"end":10045.784,"text":"所以我建議剛才柯政委員也有問到其實蘇華部他有表達意見現在這個當下其實真的是他要去了解各個部會跟了解各個國家所以速度有比較慢沒有不對現在先暫緩先看世界跟各部會去溝通了看結果差不多是怎樣有一個"},{"start":10053.956,"end":10071.97,"text":"比較好 比較平衡的方向當然要拜託他們趕快把那個官方我們的版本擬出來嘛就是說這個官方版本要不要擬出來 之前我們之前其實 我會覺得說我還是建議就全然保留 將來再組 組條協商啦要不然我們之前在這裡浪費時間每一條都在這裡說這樣不一樣的意見最後還是沒有結論啦我是這樣建議 謝謝"},{"start":10082.639,"end":10099.523,"text":"好我想我還是要這個主席先稍微說明一下因為我們這個條文裡面有非常多是保護弱勢的我們在場也有非常多包含教育部包含法務部包含勞動部包含個人隱私個人資料我們公聽會的時候有非常多的公民團體非常關注我們相關的整體上位的一個態度在沒有上位態度之前確實有可能會出現有人受害的一個狀況所以如果我們現在"},{"start":10114.649,"end":10125.641,"text":"這個沒有辦法提出來的話我想這可能會影響到全民的福祉啦所以我想既然許智傑委員剛剛有提到全案保留送協商那我想我們是不是就全案保留協商"},{"start":10127.654,"end":10154.573,"text":"對啊 剛剛曲思杰委員是這樣講的全案保留到委員會 不是就出委員會 全案保留我們後一天 會當個主條啦啊在我們的行政院齁就是說 蘇花部趕快把這個版本再思考世界各國跟我們不同黨派跟各部會不同的意見看有沒有趕快去凝聚一個比較恰當比較恰當的版本好 剛剛侯孟楷委員 然後再來吳立華這個"},{"start":10157.958,"end":10170.542,"text":"這個討論如果說現在是一年前啦我覺得還可以這樣子來做那是因為一年前的時候就是世界各國是這樣子的處理狀況可是現在已經又過了一年有一些委員在講說英國的狀況請讓我"},{"start":10174.225,"end":10198.785,"text":"請讓我說明一下英國是他現在是專案的地方法規是暫緩沒有錯可是英國早就已經有AI的原則指導而AI原則指導他的內容的含瓜的範圍其實跟我們現在討論的基本法大同小異換言之世界各國其實用基本法的概念都已經有那歐盟更不要講歐盟已經立法2026年要實施"},{"start":10200.566,"end":10228.531,"text":"那我們要比較其實我們台灣也要跟鄰近或是說相似的國家來比較在高科技來講的話哪一些國家跟我們的競爭力或是說跟我們相關是產業是衝突的或是說產業是互相競爭的我想我講南韓大家應該不會有異議吧南韓的高科技跟南韓的人口或是鄰近的部分也跟我們類似南韓他們已經正式AI基本法通過2026年要準備生效"},{"start":10229.693,"end":10254.512,"text":"所以換言之世界各國在這一個領域上面都還是持續的往前走那我想今天還是主要究責的部分我們委員都有提出版本16個版本那行政院的版本在哪裡我們為什麼已經進入到主條第五條了然後結果我們還要再討論再回來有點類似大體討論就是因為你行政部門沒有版本嘛所以我是不是可以拜託我們各委員因為我也有看到一個記者會"},{"start":10255.453,"end":10277.15,"text":"在3月的時候我們有12位綠營的委員都現在坐在這台上的好多委員他們就把AI基本法列為是優先法案啊這是你們的優先法案也是我們的優先法案也是民眾黨的優先法案那現在就只有行政部門沒有不把它當優先法案來看待所以我們現在在討論竹條其實是有意義的第一"},{"start":10277.91,"end":10300.932,"text":"各自委員表述說你認為說哪裡需要加強但是你不需要批評其他委員的版本因為我相信每個委員版本其實都有它的鎖本可是當我們即便是這幾個委員版本到最後都是做保留的話那你行政部門就應該要針對這些委員版本來去綜合出你們的願版當一個月兩個月朝野協商冷凍期"},{"start":10302.182,"end":10313.508,"text":"已經可以來在做協商的時候那那個時候協商的過程裡面願板就一定要出來啊你願板沒有再不出來的理由跟迴避的空間那還有"},{"start":10315.3,"end":10338.435,"text":"對比之前我們幾個法案現在雖然各黨都有很多委員有不同版本但我想大同小異的情況下也拜託各黨在這一個月的協商冷凍期的時候可以回去再去做各自的歸納我想在協商的時候有院版我們各黨團都有各自的歸納的時候其實就會更聚焦那這樣也才能更能更能夠進行而且"},{"start":10339.349,"end":10354.434,"text":"不要忘記我們還是有委員會的協商先進行委員會協商不成之後再來做政黨協商再來做院長召開的政黨協商所以是不是該走還是要走那是不是第五條這邊如果說討論在段落之後召委這邊可以做後續的進行好不好 以上謝謝"},{"start":10355.174,"end":10373.246,"text":"好 那我想我們剛剛其實有表達過啦就是有意義我們就保留那我們這一條好 那因為武力華委員剛剛我有點他了我想武力華委員發言完我們這一條就做個決定好 謝謝主席其實我們確實是不論討論到第幾條就會一直打轉又回來"},{"start":10374.808,"end":10394.204,"text":"討論我個人看法是這樣就是主管機關其實像教育基本法文化基本法文化基本法的主管機關也不會寫文化部教育基本法的主管機關也不會寫教育部我的意思是說其實我們現在是因為要找奶爸奶媽"},{"start":10395.345,"end":10400.148,"text":"那好不容易聽到速發部感覺他表態他就是奶爸啊那個國發會是當奶媽那因為這個AI他其實他涉及到各個領域跟各個部會恐怕也不是單一機關就是適合來做主管機關了"},{"start":10414.557,"end":10431.67,"text":"所以我覺得應該是跳脫主管機關的問題而是回到就是奶爸奶爸誰要把這個東西生出來我想我要表達的是這個意思好 謝謝吳立馬委員那我想我們這一條有意義我們剛才已經說過了有意義的條我們就保留那我們接下來進到第六條那第六條"},{"start":10439.093,"end":10464.985,"text":"第六條基本上是對人工智慧可能的風險或不當利用那方針大致一致那有的是稍微寫得比較細一些那有的是賦予政府比較完整的責任"},{"start":10467.571,"end":10495.454,"text":"好那這條有沒有意義那我想這條按照剛剛我們的說法我們如果有意義我們就保留那我們接下來進到第三章的章名我們接下來進第三章的章名好第三章的章名呢是只有也是有賴氏堡委員有提監管與保護那第三章的章名呢這個民眾黨這裡是沒有那基本上大家都是"},{"start":10497.165,"end":10515.105,"text":"有一致那有沒有意義那我們就保留那我們接下來進第7條第7條有沒有意義那我們一樣有意義好就"},{"start":10521.33,"end":10539.104,"text":"因為調次真的是有差別我們現在看起來是依照葛昭偉的調次在走那葛昭偉的第七條就是要有涉國家人工智慧戰略特別委員會"},{"start":10540.325,"end":10545.051,"text":"那我想這個是跟基本法最漢格的地方是說我們現在討論的是基本法不應該再出現這個組織法類型的機關設置的條文內容更何況設置這個特別文匯其實我覺得也應該需要國家長遠的政策規劃才有可能去執行啦"},{"start":10559.269,"end":10584.084,"text":"就像說我們的運動部我們也是經過長年的倡議啊然後資源的盤點啊規劃組織調整才有辦法在今年要掛牌成立所以我想這個戰略特別委員會本席認為說如果沒有妥善的討論的情況之下就設立不但是給行政機關困擾而且這個委員會要怎麼定位原額單位預算等等所以我覺得這個不應該寫入也請葛昭偉審慎考慮謝謝"},{"start":10586.414,"end":10591.074,"text":"好謝謝林警召委剛好您提到所以我想因為跟本席有關我還是提一下"},{"start":10592.211,"end":10621.064,"text":"6月2号刚刚有不少委员提到各国的状况我们临近的南韩已经通过了人工智慧的相关的规范日本也通过人工智慧相关技术研究开发以及应用推动法显然就是在开发以及应用是比较偏科技研究以及人才同时领域委员赵伟宁刚刚提到的日本在内阁直接设立人工智慧战略本部由首相来担任本部长"},{"start":10621.664,"end":10634.937,"text":"大臣為成員所以我想這個機制上面確實有討論的空間那我就說明到此我想按照剛才的我們的決定也許我們就這個第7條我們就予以保留那我們接下來進到第8條那第8條呢是只有兩個人的提案是接近的那有沒有意義"},{"start":10650.663,"end":10654.232,"text":"好 那有意义我们就保留好 那我们接下来进入第9条"},{"start":10662.802,"end":10690.569,"text":"那個昭偉我在教文委員是第五年沒有看過有審一個法案每一條都保留然後還繼續下去的就是說昭偉我知道你對AI基本法有你的熱情跟意志很高可是我們剛剛已經有談到了就是說目前是速發部會主責那速發部我們也沒有每一條問他們的意見然後速發部剛剛已經講他們不是沒有版本而是現在變化太大"},{"start":10691.369,"end":10712.766,"text":"所以他們希望觀光一段時間那我們大家如果尊重是速發部會主責這個部分那未來這個也應該是交通委員會的人主監督嘛那現在我們在場都是就是說我的意思就是說我們好像就是卡在這裡然後每一條都保留那周偉你確定我們要繼續審下去嗎還是我們擇期再審"},{"start":10715.307,"end":10736.596,"text":"這個部分那如果能夠速發部有版本的話也不會現在每一條又因為條次不一樣內容差異很大我們委員會完全沒有一個整合的能力那最後送去難道我們是要讓傅坤祺 黨鞭或是黃國昌他們去把條文伸出來嗎所以我真的覺得據說是不是擇期再審請召委能夠再考慮一次"},{"start":10737.489,"end":10752.845,"text":"好再強調一次謝謝因為在一開始就有不同政黨的委員提到可能會有出現有人落後沒有被保護到的問題那我們看到鄰近的國家也都陸續在希望立法去做"},{"start":10753.746,"end":10768.477,"text":"研發做應用做保護那我們現在一直沒有這樣的一個上位的基本法我們今天練習的所有的相關的機關跟部會可能就沒有一個適應的標準也沒有辦法開始進行法規調適啊所以我想如果我們這個執政黨"},{"start":10771.124,"end":10791.421,"text":"沒有提出一個適合的法案也不願意你去共事現在只是可能因為條文調製的順序不同張明有問題那我想這個如果說變化太快現在所有的事物都變化很快所以我想我們這個就按照我們剛才的這個決議我們就保留"},{"start":10793.272,"end":10803.256,"text":"因為剛才林怡瑾 趙薇是跟我提說如果有的話也許我們就一位發表意見沒有吧 讓大家發言至少要一位啊那我們剛剛的決議是就是有意義的話我們就保留啊沒有沒有"},{"start":10814.406,"end":10840.171,"text":"我們針對這一條好不好好因為其實我已經講了很多次我還是希望部會可以來回應一下就是雖然說大家都有講到我知道我知道讓我講話謝謝就是說大家一直在講說有參考到弱勢啊有照顧到兒少等等但是我一直沒有聽到我們的部會到底對於兒少的影響性評估有沒有一個非常明確的回應不然其實坦白說後面很難討論下去啊"},{"start":10841.491,"end":10863.967,"text":"因為我們根本不確定所以現在兒少團體也都只是在猜或是他們從國外的一些研究他們發現我覺得這邊是不是可以請部會來針對這點來回應下去這樣子我們才能夠比較更清楚的去討論那第二點是說我還是要再回應一下因為大家其實一直不停的在講國外都有在跟上這個法規韓國等等的可是我們要先我要回應一下這題就是說歐盟雖然在"},{"start":10866.129,"end":10893.046,"text":"之前已经定了一个AI的风险的法规可是他们也已经有在6月6号宣布他们不排除延后部分法规的生效我觉得这部分也是要让大家厘清其实欧盟或是波兰都有在因应这个时代这个科技的日新月异快速编迁来去做一些调整所以我认为我们也是必须要去对上这个世界的节奏而不是说别人都有我们就马上要冲"},{"start":10894.006,"end":10910.909,"text":"我覺得我們還是要來像剛剛回應到速發部有講的我們應該還是要靜觀其變但是還是請回應一下我剛剛前面的第一個問題謝謝張大靈委員因為國歌會之前已經出過草案了所以我想我們就因為現在在速發部這裡所以速發部是不是檢要這個回應就是兒少這邊"},{"start":10912.371,"end":10937.372,"text":"這個就是我剛剛講在我們在這個法案在後來在制定的時候為什麼說要先在討論跟觀察因為這個基本法會影響到剛剛講兒少法是一個絕對是一個被影響也影響到個資法也影響到著作權法所以這個法其實不是單獨的一個法它是牽動很多相關法律才會需要跟各部會協調那我想說這個就是剛剛講兒少我們會特別注意但是確實是我們在目前考量的一個"},{"start":10938.032,"end":10948.31,"text":"想問的是說我們到底有沒有做一些相關的影響性評估像之前西塔法案他們可能就會做一些性別影響評估或少影響評估這個部分我們到底做了嗎我們會去做但是還沒做還沒做 對好 了解"},{"start":10949.332,"end":10974.118,"text":"好 那我想我們第8條就保留那我們接下來進入第9條那第9條主要是針對這個教育的部分那有非常多的委員也都非常關注教育那我們剛才也提到2017年的時候12月我們賴清德擔任行政院院長的時候就非常關注人工智慧與AI教育但是我們現在已經2025年了8年已經通過了"},{"start":10977.259,"end":10998.617,"text":"那我想接下来可能只会变化的更快那这条关于教育那这个林警召委有提到伦理教育提升素养生化那那个杨秋英委员有提到产学合作许志杰委员呢有提到也是跟林警召委是相似的"},{"start":10999.754,"end":11018.18,"text":"那這個吳宗憲委員呢是有很明白的列出有產學合作啊 基礎設施等等好 那關於第九條各位有沒有 委員有沒有意見好 那如果有意見我們還是就保留那我們接下來進入第十條因為這一條的差異真的不大我覺得不用"},{"start":11026.846,"end":11043.937,"text":"主席 因為剛才我剛才發覺到就是其實民進黨的許志傑委員跟李一綺委員的這個部分基本上是一樣的而且他跟盧薰委員的這個內容其實很相近我覺得可能是第一個我們可以在這個條文當中就第"},{"start":11048.939,"end":11069.816,"text":"第八條來做一個第九條來做一個就整合真的是可以達到的真的看文字尤其在教育跟素養倫理通通都有包含到了我覺得事實上可以就這文字上面就第一個達成一個共識的部分請問速發部部長國會主委能不能你共識的條文有委員提出是不是可以你是不是可以你請部長回應好不好可不可以你"},{"start":11077.438,"end":11080.782,"text":"其實我看了那麼久啦羅廷輝委員 萬美玲委員跟徐志傑委員 李一錦委員這四個人的版本真的蠻類似的尤其在很多個條文包括說前面的第三條 第四條然後現在的第九條所以如果說第九條我們可以先"},{"start":11097.401,"end":11112.004,"text":"別的委員如果說沒有到的話那可能他的他有其他的想法或意見那我們就是以在場委員為主嘛所以我想之前我們在教育文化委員會的時候在審相關的法案也是這樣子的一個概念嘛那所以說如果說是第九條的話"},{"start":11113.687,"end":11142.495,"text":"羅廷偉、萬美玲、許智傑、林怡瑾這四個版本是不是文字幾乎都一樣那我是覺得說這個立法的內容方向我覺得我也是支持的那我們是不是就以這四位委員的版本為做一個共識那看一下那個主管機關有沒有意見如果主管機關沒有意見的話是不是就以這四位委的版本為我們第九條的一個就法請問主管機關這邊或者是訴發部或者是國歌會訴發部可不可以先回應"},{"start":11146.206,"end":11155.107,"text":"好 所以是張阿玲委員 郭益勤委員 張阿玲委員 范雲委員 謝謝"},{"start":11159.907,"end":11186.157,"text":"因為這第九條其實跟這個AI教育素養有關那我想今天這個教育部其實也沒來啊教育部也沒來啊那我想有教育部師長在這邊那等一下可以回應一下因為我們知道其實教育部在這個2023年我們的課綱當中其實就已經研議要將這個AI素養納入這個科技領域當中那但是我覺得如果是在基本法當中去系列執行的方式"},{"start":11187.077,"end":11205.164,"text":"我是個人覺得有點不妥啦因為要保持更多的一個彈性啦那我想的這個剛剛有特別提到像區議員委員許志傑的委員的版本也有特別提到所謂的涵蓋倫理教育那這一點其實是一個關鍵啦那我想這個AI的使用應該不是只有在技能上的一個問題"},{"start":11205.984,"end":11219.86,"text":"那還是價值判斷的一個問題喔那只是說在整個細項當中要不要在基本法當中去寫到這麼的細那這個部分我等一下也請這個教育部他們這邊也來回應一下啦好"},{"start":11226.351,"end":11233.634,"text":"那因為在沒有兒少影響性評估的狀況之下我是認為要針對這些跟未成年的討論是有點不恰當不過我想這邊還是提供一下團體的意見就是說團體認為針對這一點我們應該還是要針對未成年制定相關的學習指引並且推動相關的產品認證來確保我們為未成年兒少的身心安全及資訊判讀能力不受損害"},{"start":11255.644,"end":11262.891,"text":"那這是團體的意見我還是幫忙表達不過我還是想要再重申啦我們應該還是要等到兒少影響性評估我們再來審我們會更能夠去確保到到底實質的影響是什麼謝謝好 范議委員謝謝我想問教育部就是AI的教育的範疇中有沒有可能納入性別平等的意識為什麼"},{"start":11277.825,"end":11295.173,"text":"因為其實你可以看到這個數位的風險那已經有很多的國家的研究包含我們剛剛一直提到的歐盟那他們有通過人工智慧與人權民主和法理的框架公約的時候就特別提到婦女跟女孩的處境有非常高的風險"},{"start":11296.314,"end":11320.94,"text":"那所以在這個過程中就是AI的教育我相信教育部正在做就是也不會反對那只是針對就是說在AI的相關的教育裡面是不是應該能夠特別加強性別平等意識然後避免偏見歧視跟性暴力相關的部分那些也許就是說可以在那個說明文字裡面就因為其實我們沒有那個"},{"start":11322.18,"end":11338.229,"text":"我們今天連說明文字都沒有辦法處理因為過去是行政院的版本會有那個說明文字我還可以要求放在說明文字當中所以待會是不是可以請教育部回應一下就是AI教育的這個範圍中能不能放入性別平等意識"},{"start":11339.71,"end":11367.825,"text":"那如果能的話那文字修正這部分教育部是不是可以協助提出那當然我還是要提到就是說這些相關的研究我們都沒有看到那也沒辦法要速發部跟教育部事前提供那讓我們對於就是要加入哪些就是跟監管有關的東西非常的困擾那也要回應剛剛洪孟凱委員講他說英國有指引可是英國現在停下來的就是跟監管有關的法嗎"},{"start":11368.425,"end":11386.452,"text":"那今天我們要發展的話大家都同意對不對就是發展情況下哪些要監管的部分才需要有這個基本法來處理那對於監管的東西那英國停下來這個部分我還是希望在國際的資訊這個部分那大家能夠就是更清楚的理解好 謝謝"},{"start":11388.153,"end":11408.161,"text":"謝謝范議員我想這一條羅廷惠委員萬美玲委員李英錦委員都幾乎是相似的那這個也無牽涉到所謂監管因為這是教育平權那所以是不是速發部國科會這裡可不可以擬一個我們現在就是擬一個共識的條文出來然後可不可以然後請資格"},{"start":11416.866,"end":11432.371,"text":"是請智克師說明一下教育部現在有來智克師的師長然後我們有高等教育師高教師技職師國民學年教育署都有到那我們請師長是不是要回應一下好"},{"start":11439.577,"end":11465.707,"text":"首先是針對條文的部分委員提出來的這一些其實我們都在我們教育部沒有特別的意見而且我們會去做然後像剛才范雲委員提到的這個AI怎麼樣避免AI有偏見或是性別意識的部分那在後續的一個AI素養教育我們會特別去注意然後張雅琳委員提到的有關於未成年的指引其實我們"},{"start":11466.587,"end":11486.462,"text":"目前已經有的是就是學生的一個指引但我們現在還在做那會把這一個部分特別像我們有關於產品的一個認證只要是教育部就是有關於未來產品有AI的部分其實我們現在在審查也都有納入那我們會持續來努力我做以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":11489.158,"end":11518.017,"text":"好謝謝師長那這個第9條呢我們在本席的版本在寫的時候是參考科學技術基本法第22條那是幾乎是一樣的那是民定政府應該對國民對人工智慧知識的技能去厚植相關的數位素養那我想這一條既然有共識我想是不是可以請速發不跟沒有沒有說我說有是有共識的啊羅廷惠委員外美林委員林益勤委員是有共識的"},{"start":11522.319,"end":11542.189,"text":"吳佩儀委員要發言主席剛剛前面這麼多委員的發言明顯就是沒有共識我不知道為什麼你可以下有共識這個結論我希望主持還是意識要公正一點那我具體的提問因為趙偉寧的葛如居委員的版本裡面第九條提到是厚植國民之素未素養那其他的委員提的是"},{"start":11543.109,"end":11556.037,"text":"提升國民人工智慧之素養因為這個是法律的文字其實差一字都差很多數位素養跟人工智慧素養是一樣的嗎數位素養應該是包含但不等於人工數位之素養所以你這條定下去了這個到底是要後職數位素養還是人工智慧之素養這要討論嗎這版本哪有一樣版本通通都不一樣"},{"start":11569.465,"end":11576.51,"text":"那你剛剛也沒討論那你前面每一條有意見你就說保留然後現在這一條你就說請部會回應那是接下來每一條是不是每個部會都要回應還是怎麼樣我這個還是回到程旭問題我希望這個原則要一樣否則我不知道每一條討論的原則都不一樣好那所以我們現在就確定所以你到底是你的數位素養是要修掉嗎還是怎麼樣沒有共識我覺得數位素養我的主張是保留我可以尊重萬美林委員羅廷惠委員跟林盈琴委員的意見"},{"start":11598.405,"end":11605.05,"text":"那外美林委員是人工智慧之素養那我們有意見啊剛剛是不是說有意見要保留因為我們剛剛還有講到針對"},{"start":11609.107,"end":11637.877,"text":"好 那既然這樣我們就再次立下共識待會有意見我們就保留那希望大家就不要再我們再回來繞圈圈了保留跟發言是兩件事欸保留但是我們還是可以針對於團體的一些建議我覺得我們還是要反映團體的聲音所以今天這些聲音還是能夠被提出來然後最後達成保留的共識我覺得這應該是今天大家認同的部分才對"},{"start":11638.997,"end":11657.951,"text":"詹惟我覺得你不能怕我們發言我相信孟愷委員有經驗我們以前在教委我們可能為了一個條文為了一句話為了一個字我們可以講一個小時你不能怕我們發言因為大家非常的關心大家對這些都有想法也都有意見想要表達你不能怕大家發言啊還限制說只能一個人發言還講一分鐘那我們舉手你都不完全不理我們為什麼不讓我們講為什麼不讓我們發言"},{"start":11664.415,"end":11692.682,"text":"首先第一沒有怕發言第二剛剛並沒有委員真的就只講一分鐘所以我想我們還是要理性的來進行我們今天的會議好不好那我們就針對法條那如果有意義我們就保留那之所以我們剛剛在發言上面因為之後保留我們在協商的過程裡我們也都還是可以持續的討論跟發表意見好那我們這一條呢我們就"},{"start":11694.451,"end":11710.867,"text":"保留好那我們現在進入第十條那第十條呢是所謂的鼓勵啦那有沒有意義好那郭玉琴委員謝謝"},{"start":11712.606,"end":11735.742,"text":"我看到這第十條其實真的是版本非常的混亂那包含葛國軍委員您的版本是放在第十條就是在講這個跨域的一個合作國際的參與然後產官學的一個合作然後公司協力等等但是我們看到吳宗憲委員的版本是放在第五條然後另外林倩琪委員她是放在第六條"},{"start":11736.622,"end":11753.87,"text":"那另外呢像民眾黨的版本他是放在32條楊瓊英委員是放在32條萬美林委員公司協力他放在第8條所以到底這麼多不同的版本我們現在是要放在哪裡要再來討論到底是以誰的版本為主那現在調遮我光看"},{"start":11755.751,"end":11771.977,"text":"就有第五條 第六條 三十二條 第八條然後還有第十條然後還有人是放在第我不知道還有第幾條是我沒看到的還有第六條然後跟林千玺委員一樣是第六條所以到底我們是要以誰的版本我們繼續這樣子討論下去我剛剛已經講過再次回憶一下就是這個謝榮介委員剛剛講的不是在比誰跑得快"},{"start":11779.6,"end":11804.193,"text":"宋茜不是在比誰跑得快這個不是競技場這個立法是要非常細緻是不是要精緻的而且在講到這個AI基本法我們牽扯到的所有的部會是這麼的多話題這麼的多牽扯的資訊跟所有的這個相關聯繫又是這麼的不一樣所以今天我們光看條次都有這麼多不同的版本到底要以誰的來做討論好以上"},{"start":11808.41,"end":11830.952,"text":"好 那范議員剛剛有舉手這一條是發展嘛 可是發展的寫法到底是像剛剛郭益勤委員講的我們應該是一個如均委員的版本一一列舉呢還是像林怡瑾跟許智傑或是邱瑩等的版本強調公司協力 政府應怎麼樣是比較簡單的"},{"start":11832.634,"end":11845.257,"text":"那這個部分我待會是想請庶發部是不是能夠回應一下政府現在在做的有哪些因為你在做的哪些我們才知道說哪些我們應該要列在這裡然後大家知道有沒有遺漏那我們應該要走這個國務軍委員這個方向列舉12345671資料中心能源設備等等還是說"},{"start":11856.059,"end":11877.885,"text":"移軍委員的 智捷委員的就是強調公司協力速發部是不是能夠回應就是說第一個你們現在在做的這些項目中比如移國移軍委員在12345678為例就是說是不是都有在發展那需不需要強調公司協力還是已經在公司協力了需要法定說要公司協力好 OK"},{"start":11878.325,"end":11896.755,"text":"好謝謝那我們請出發部部長針對剛剛範圍委員所提到的那本席的版本呢是有列那你您可以依據依序一條一項的來說明你們有做的那以及其他的委員的是否可以請部長發表"},{"start":11898.136,"end":11912.333,"text":"基本上塑化部在推動AI上已經工作了一段時間那我們基本上在從五個面向去推動AI那當然剛剛講就委員所講的這些工作我們都有涵蓋在我們的工作裡面"},{"start":11912.833,"end":11936.17,"text":"那第一就是協助建立算力池嘛 就讓AI能夠發展然後資料的整理 讓資料能夠用來訓練人才培育 然後在行銷幫助台灣的AI的廠商能夠把solution 媒合在國內的產業的需要跟到國外那最後就是資金 我們就投資一些新創 讓很多AI新創可以發展"},{"start":11936.63,"end":11959.909,"text":"那這個的確是公私協力啦就是說公私協力是非常重要所以公私協力這個字眼我覺得是如果要放在基本法的話這個應該要做至於說工作的內容我覺得因為剛剛講AI的變化很快我們要做的工作不只這八項所以我覺得就是說這邊應該不用去調列而是一個基本原則的宣示是比較重要好"},{"start":11963.583,"end":11988.986,"text":"這條只是列法不一樣吼那差很多好差很多好那我們第10條就保留好那我們接下來進入第11條那第11條呢是可能跟預算有關啦那因為公司協力也好或者是政府來協助也好都有預算方面的需求好那"},{"start":11990.451,"end":11993.773,"text":"有意見 有異議嗎好 那領域委員謝謝主席"},{"start":12003.912,"end":12026.443,"text":"這一條 11條 就是葛昭緯的11條是有關於預算的部分預算法其實強調各機關預算編列的獨立性而且必須要 我們要諸行所謂的預算的程序由各級政府自行來編列預算然後交由所謂的民意代表審議那葛昭緯的版本中有要求各級主管機關皆應編列預算"},{"start":12029.224,"end":12051.933,"text":"我覺得如果解釋為強制性的要求而不是建議性的或者是方向性的指導那可能就有點是變相干預地方政府的編列預算自主權況且編列預算後還要審議那審議也可能不會過所以立這一條我感覺是好像要求國會或議會一定要通過AI相關的預算一樣我覺得變相有點侵犯民意機關的預算審議權"},{"start":12057.435,"end":12073.976,"text":"另外那個預算法也有要求預算編列要有明確的用途跟細項葛昭偉的草案只有指出確保經費符合人工智慧政策之所需可是你沒有明確表示經費的具體用途目標效益評估等等"},{"start":12074.677,"end":12099.776,"text":"那在這個實際預算審查的時候就會面臨很大的挑戰可能會被質疑為空白授權喔那或者是說你目的不明確的預算那如果地方政府隨便一筆AI預算那所有名目上只要符合AI基本法可是內容空泛不明那這叫民意機關怎麼審議所以各級主管機關皆因編列預算這個其實是違憲疑慮的喔所以我覺得這個不應該這樣定定以上"},{"start":12104.412,"end":12121.493,"text":"好 張雅琳委員 郭益勤委員好 那一樣就是說因為其實我們有行政立法權是分立的這是台灣的一個基本的運作的政府運作的架構那我國的憲法第63條就規定立法院有審議預算的權利那財政紀律法第7條也限制各級政府"},{"start":12121.994,"end":12139.694,"text":"及立法机关法案真谛固定的经费额度或比率的保障那应该是要依循组织总处的往历不应该在我们的法律案中定定预算经费所以我认为这一个地方是有违宪的疑虑所以我认为这一条应该要来拿掉才对"},{"start":12144.375,"end":12168.351,"text":"這個條文是把那個編列預算印要寫進法律我覺得應該不太符合這個基本法的一個定位啦我覺得應該是基本法應該是把設計的一個治理的一個架構跟政策的一個方向那如果是把這個預算編列印是要寫進去其實光是主計總書他們一貫的立場是依憲法來規定預算編列應該是由行政部門來做提案立法院來做審議"},{"start":12169.392,"end":12184.118,"text":"不應該是在基本法上面就直接要規定說你要有一個編列義務預算這樣子的一個條文放在這個基本法裡面啦我是覺得有點不妥啦以上好 再來劉淑冰委員"},{"start":12185.134,"end":12191.616,"text":"好 民眾黨這一部分針對說發展AI絕對是要有預算但是預算當然也是要符合國家財政的部分所以我們是在我們的第五條對應到目前在討論知識革命版的第十一條當中是說政府應該在國家財政能力範圍內寬列預算"},{"start":12206.32,"end":12221.475,"text":"那採取必要措施確保這個經費能符合人工智慧發展所需那當然我們也針對到第七條的我們自己版本的第七條裡面有針對包括有些國發基金的這個運用也可以運用到是在促進到所謂的"},{"start":12222.936,"end":12237.353,"text":"AI的發展包括目前應該是在國科會當中也有些科研經費當中目前是最大的部分當然也是針對到AI的部分發展所以這部分我想應該是都有預算只是說我們透過法定預算的方式把它呈現到我們的條文當中謝謝好謝謝劉淑冰委員那這一條"},{"start":12244.81,"end":12262.879,"text":"第11條我想因為剛才有提到我的本席的版本那這個呢是因為主要還是希望能夠人工智慧有預算的確保那到底是因還是得也是可以討論的那這個但總體來講如果還是有意義的話我們這條就保留是"},{"start":12265.356,"end":12290.514,"text":"范委員我們現在到第十條我們每條都保留然後因跟得也沒辦法做深入的討論我真的覺得這個傷害我們教育委員就是說過去長期以來的良好的傳統那也對周圍的形象不好耶因為據說這樣的事情是因跟得這是很大的差異我們若不討論那到時候是少數人去協商還是傅坤祺跟黃國昌加歐小林來幫大家決定呢"},{"start":12291.174,"end":12307.533,"text":"所以真的覺得這樣子會更讓人擔憂啦是不是擇期再審謝謝我補充一下啦謝謝范議員因為范議員有提到本席那我想我還是說明一下一個世界快速變遷的法令的框架大家是必須要"},{"start":12312.125,"end":12320.376,"text":"很理性的來看待我們剛剛已經提過了2017年賴清德擔任行政院院長就已經不斷的在說"},{"start":12322.216,"end":12349.949,"text":"教育跟AI那到今年三月有十幾位的民進黨的立法委員集結起來說要作為優先法案二月份賴清德總統作為民進黨的黨主席他是說是優先法案那我想不同的政黨也都非常關注公聽會的時候不同的人也都提出希望能夠盡快有一個框架剛剛也有委員提到相關弱勢的保護等等"},{"start":12350.888,"end":12368.677,"text":"所以我想這一條我們就保留那我們就進入下一條好 我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":12372.5,"end":12401.147,"text":"他有他的困難 你已經講了那個兒少的東西 你跟未婦婦然後英國的東西也是那個院子的變化你們的想法 因為你們也是希望這個修憲法案那如果說有 我們都出去你都出去這樣反而不好我們委員會到時候沒有辦法好好的審查沒有啊 到時候協商的時候很多時候人都不是他協商的時候不會是所有委員都有空的時間因為我每次都會到我們先溝通一下"},{"start":14061.018,"end":14087.071,"text":"好非常感謝跨黨派還有諸位好非常感謝跨黨派以及諸位委員的這個對於AI基本法人工智慧基本法的關注那我想剛剛也有非常充分的發言跟討論那我想我們就共同請數位發展部於7月15號以前提出佈板那本席呢會在7月21號來排審那這樣大家有沒有意見"},{"start":14090.683,"end":14100.992,"text":"這一週來排審7月21號那一週來排審好那一週那一週好不好好那如果沒有意見的話我們就做如上決議好"},{"start":14112.52,"end":14141.955,"text":"好那關於今天會做如下決議那對於委員質詢要求或者剛剛對談需要資料或未及答覆的部分相關機關競訴與書面答覆那我們人工智慧基本法的草案呢未及審查部分呢我們另定期繼續審查那我們也希望速發部希望這個本於世界的趨勢以及只會越來越快請務必於7月15日以前提出速發部的布版"},{"start":14144.465,"end":14157.457,"text":"好 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死者人是長得很暈眩啊但是揍人處事是有問題的啊怎麼會怎麼會這個可樂不冰啊或者什麼薯條不軟啊等等這些還有霸凌之前科欸拜託"},{"start":231.491,"end":255.991,"text":"他最清楚的 他搞過勞保 搞過文化他有搞過交通一個嗎我們最起碼的話 我們都還做過交通委員會在你們身上 學了不少的交通的專業所以我還是老化一劑啦 還是老化一劑真的 替你們打抱不平 替你們打抱不平"},{"start":257.212,"end":271.723,"text":"另外一個問題我要請陳正士特別要注意國際駕照換照的問題是成為道安的漏洞這個要研究一下"},{"start":273.228,"end":293.945,"text":"林市長可能要了解一下國際換照成為道安的漏洞因為為什麼國外的技術來到這裡它國際駕照不等於是國際開車的水準所以這個部分我認為這個部分要拜託我們林市長這個要特別注意"},{"start":302.051,"end":313.805,"text":"那另外一個就是因為我們政府都已經講了就是獨駕的問題重考的問題我必須要提醒我們陳正智跟林市長"},{"start":315.134,"end":330.121,"text":"沒有違憲啦人家大華觀也沒有說違憲啊該重考的就要重考該限制的就要限制那另外一個齁我還是要建議啦就是救護車跟行人徵到這個問題當然"},{"start":333.917,"end":356.833,"text":"這個行人跟車輛一定要理量可是這裡法規是不足的喔也有一些行人他過馬路他認為我斑馬線優先但是他不會理讓救護車不會理讓警備車這個部分我們在規劃部分是不足的"},{"start":357.814,"end":377.691,"text":"要不要也要修滑的部分去把它加強不要說我走斑馬線你警車來也是這樣你救護車來也是這樣因為行人優先所以他沒有想說搶救優先啊所以這個部分我還是要拜託師長"},{"start":380.312,"end":400.717,"text":"這個要稍微研究一下那另外一個可能最後我在這裡要特別提醒也就是家庭事故史上創新高的就是說實在的也就是寵物製造車輛的問題這個在法令上"},{"start":401.889,"end":419.154,"text":"也是沒有規範的喔也是沒有規範所以我要拜託這個政次兩位政次不管是跟你有關的或者這個林福山師長這個部分這個遺漏的法令該補的要補"},{"start":420.374,"end":438.912,"text":"遺漏的法運不管你用單行法規或者用行政命令或者來修法我想這些都叫做亡羊補牢的動作亡羊補牢的動作所以以上我提供這些給兩位政次還有我們那個林市長來做參考"},{"start":440.393,"end":452.715,"text":"好不好所以這個非常重要不足的部分拜託把它帶回去該補的還是要補好不好好 謝謝委員所提供的意見我會後續納為研究參考"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1142,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（13時18分）我請兩位政次，陳政次跟伍政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：召委好。"],["林委員國成：因為本會委員都質詢完畢，所以我就在主席台做一些簡單的質詢。","說實在的，對於高鐵的人事案我非常不滿，我替你們打抱不平！我跟你講，史哲比起陳彥伯、伍勝園、林國顯來說，資格都還不夠！可是我也沒有辦法，你們很無奈，為什麼無奈？這是上面者要做的事情，所以你們很無奈。今天大家非常注意的史哲，因為史哲是用空降！我不管當議員、當立委，對空降的人我一向都非常反對！為什麼？因為他不知道基層，會影響士氣！最起碼三位次長不管是哪一位，都經過歷練，對交通的基本ABC都學有專長！像陳政次當過公路局局長，對交通系統相當清楚；伍政次主政過鐵軌系統，對這方面也很內行，所以本席不曉得為什麼會有這樣的任用案？當然，這是總統、行政院長等長官的意思，但這樣真的會讓老百姓覺得非常寒心，因為由交通外行領導內行，這樣對臺灣人民非常不尊重，這是本席的感覺。","有記者問本席，當時本席已經說得很清楚，這就是交通外行、坐享其成、酬庸任用，其實這樣的話也不需要本席再說。所以本席要特別替三位政次打抱不平，你們在交通這個領域拚的要死，本席才不相信你們比不上史哲，本席絕對不相信，所以替你們打抱不平。但民意代表沒有決定權啦！你們也不要反駁本席替你們打抱不平的話，因為我們要讓卓院長、賴總統知道這樣做會影響士氣。","這個位置誰來坐都可以，但問題是外行、酬庸，這樣老百姓不太會諒解。大家都知道史哲長的很英俊啦，但是他為人處事有問題啊！例如有可樂不冰或者薯條太軟等問題傳出來，還有霸凌的前科！拜託！這些業務他是最清楚的，因為他搞過勞保、文化，但他有搞過交通嗎？最起碼我們還在交通委員會待過，在你們身上學了不少交通專業。所以本席還是老話一句，真的替你們打抱不平。","另外一個問題要請陳政次特別注意，就是國際駕照換照的問題會成為道安漏洞，這個部分要研究一下。林司長，這部分可能要了解一下，不要讓國際駕照換照成為道安漏洞。為什麼？因為即使有國際駕照，也不等同有開車的水準，所以這個部分要拜託林司長特別注意。","另外，政府也有說到毒駕、重考的問題，本席必須提醒陳政次和林司長，這部分沒有違憲，大法官並沒有說違憲啊！所以該重考的就要重考、該限制的就要限制。本席還要對救護車和行人爭道問題提出建議。當然，行人和車輛一定要禮讓，但是這部分的法規是不足的！也有一些行人過馬路時，認為行人在斑馬線優先，所以不會禮讓救護車、警備車，這個部分的規劃是不足的，是否也要修法加強？不是只要走斑馬線，不管是警車或救護車都不用讓，只想行人優先，而沒有想到搶救優先啊！所以這個部分還是要拜託司長稍微研究一下。","最後，本席要特別提醒，家庭事故史上創新高。說實在的，就是因為車輛載寵物的問題，但是這部分在法令上也沒有規範！所以本席要拜託兩位政次，不管這個業務是否和你有關或者和林福山司長有關，這部分的法令如果有所遺漏，該補的就要補，不管你們是用單行法規、行政命令或者修法，都要亡羊補牢。","本席提供這些意見給兩位政次和林司長參考，這部分非常重要，拜託你們把這些問題帶回去，該補的還是要補，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，謝謝委員提供的意見，我們後續會納入研究參考。"],["主席：謝謝，請回座。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭入正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162475","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162475","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9b5f3ddf2e304f31d8c2a0f21558b58c3280ca7c7326cebf4d9d231a63c5675865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:34:16 - 13:41:20","影片長度":"00:07:04","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T13:34:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T13:41:20+08:00","duration":424,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.122843750000001,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.99534375,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.41971875,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.887843750000002,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.43596875,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.81034375,"end":64.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.04596875,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.09596875,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.96909375,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.37409375,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":77.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.77409375,"end":85.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.62534375,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.43034375,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.65784375000001,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.04034375,"end":103.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.68534375,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.09034375,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.27596875,"end":106.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.32659375,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.34346875,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.36034375000001,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.37721875000001,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.45721875000001,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.94096875000001,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.65346875,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.71221875,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.09159375000002,"end":164.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.28784375,"end":169.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.14409375000002,"end":170.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.85659375,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.48784375000002,"end":203.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.92159375,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.42346875,"end":189.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.58221875,"end":216.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.29659375000003,"end":224.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.34596875000003,"end":226.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.59034375000002,"end":228.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.66159375,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.39909375000002,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.34409375,"end":239.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.09909375,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.20159375000003,"end":266.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.28471875,"end":268.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.96784375000004,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.28659375,"end":285.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":289.0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就要兩年後嘛所以現在要當董事長的人他要有運輸的專長嘛他知道怎麼樣安全而且讓這個車輛的在調度上面順利讓旅客在搭乘高鐵的時候可以更舒適這個才是現在高鐵的重點嘛然後結果你們政院人士講說行銷行銷是什麼意思行銷是"},{"start":142.941,"end":164.019,"text":"行銷就是要讓市場擴大啊等於意思是說高野現在市場不夠啦希望能夠再招攬更多的旅客讓運量再更提升這個是你們政院人士講使者來接這個理由啊那個次長你能夠接受嗎當然你講的是媒體報導啦我是說媒體報導這樣的一個知情人士說法你可以接受嗎"},{"start":165.507,"end":179.256,"text":"我還是重申剛才媒體上的報導我是問你你認不認同這樣說法我要講的就是說剛才其實我也講過要經營一個這個公司其實它需要各個"},{"start":182.078,"end":205.553,"text":"各方面的這不管是人也好或者是專業也好來共同你去公司的營運所以剛才特別提到專業的這一部分不管車輛調度安全啦控管啦營運財務其實跟行銷也好都是需要一群人來幫我的我覺得啦我的看法是這樣啦好那沒關係那我再來問你我再來問你啦那個知情人士說啊因為這個時針會溝通啊"},{"start":208.775,"end":226.01,"text":"那因為高鐵不管北延或南延啊都需要他運用這個地方政府的專長啊去跟地方政府溝通啊你認同這樣說法嗎我想問一下高鐵南延或北延是由高鐵董事長來決定嗎還是你們交通部決定交通部鐵道局"},{"start":231.003,"end":255.625,"text":"高鐵南延或是往宜蘭等等的當然是整個應該是我們鐵道局當然是鐵道局決定嘛而且地方政府的溝通我就舉一個例子像南延到屏東這件事情2019年當時的高雄市長韓國瑜他希望因為大家都知道南延有四個方案高雄方案左營方案還有另外兩個方案韓國瑜選的是高雄方案但是當時行政院長蘇貞昌認為要左營方案"},{"start":258.26,"end":285.201,"text":"也沒有要再跟地方政府溝通啊就是交通部說了算嘛行政院拍板嘛隔了幾年之後轉彎才變成高雄站嘛所以我講這件事情我只是這樣啦要用什麼人啊這個當然都是行政院的決定啦我想史喆要接高鐵的董事長可能也不是次長您可以決定的啦我不知道誰決定可能因為今天部長不在但是每一次要用這個人都都出來講這些有的沒的"},{"start":286.175,"end":313.761,"text":"什麼什麼行銷專長啦高鐵行銷有待強化啦然後要運用他地方政府的經驗去跟地方政府溝通我覺得大家聽不下去啦然後我再那個趙委再給我一點時間那個現在是因為史澤要來當高鐵董事長然後原本的高鐵董事長鄭光遠去接台鐵董事長鄭光遠接台鐵鄭光遠接高鐵董事長四個月而已嘛對吧"},{"start":315.396,"end":334.375,"text":"那請問一下 你現在是在高鐵四個月正準備大刀闊斧的時候不好意思喔 你去一下台鐵有人這樣子在安排人事的喔那真正鄭光遠 他才是交通專長嘛他是交通大學的博士嘛"},{"start":336.136,"end":346.521,"text":"你說如果真的要去調度車輛什麼之類的當然鄭光遠更具備這樣專長啊那我不知道說交通部現在把鄭光遠調到台鐵是要解決台鐵什麼問題"},{"start":350.426,"end":372.916,"text":"這一部分我還是回到因為剛才講到鄭董事長有其專業當然他其實到了這個以後接上台鐵公司也一定會發揮他的專業我們很期待整體台鐵因為公司化進入公司化以後有很多不管是制度典章或者相關業務的推展都需要這個這個這麼具有專業的人來領導所以我覺得他非常"},{"start":375.957,"end":402.222,"text":"適當啦那剛才特別提到那個史哲政委的部分我覺得剛才我也特別提到政委也有一定他的專業性那他就其專業來領導整個高鐵公司我覺得一定也是可以跟著融入整個隊長那個我特別注意一件事情請市長特別注意台鐵一件事情特別注意台鐵一件事情台鐵近半年吼吊車撞車的事故一直不斷發生這個你應該知道"},{"start":403.649,"end":422.513,"text":"你們可不可以去解決這個問題啊因為這個跟安全有關啦好不好你如果說要把那個鄭光遠董事長叫過去他們有特別的來列管有列管但是就是最近就一直在發生最近一直在發生啦好不好這個事情要特別特別注意一下啦好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1180,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時34分）主席好，麻煩請交通部次長。"],["主席：陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。有關史哲要接高鐵的董事長，現在應該已經確定了，對不對？交通部已經正式對外宣布了？"],["陳次長彥伯：下午記者會會對外說明。"],["葉委員元之：下午要正式宣布？前兩天他要接董事長這個消息剛出來的時候，一開始沒有人證實，後來本席看到一篇媒體報導，有政院知情人士跳出來證實，可見他的消息很準確。他說為什麼要讓史哲接高鐵董事長？因為高鐵行銷尚待強化，這是史哲的強項，所以由史哲為高鐵加強行銷，非常適任。本席想請教一下次長，高鐵為什麼行銷尚待強化？高鐵現在的問題是什麼？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，那是媒體的報導，我不方便評論。"],["葉委員元之：這是政院知情人士說的。沒關係，本席請教你，高鐵現在的行銷需要強化嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想每個營運單位、運輸單位，行銷都是持續要做的。"],["葉委員元之：你覺得高鐵現在主要的問題是行銷不夠強嗎？還是應該改善其他地方？高鐵現在的主要問題是什麼？"],["陳次長彥伯：高鐵現在整體運量屢創新高，我覺得應該是和他們現在正在做的車輛購置問題有關。"],["葉委員元之：對，次長很了解狀況！現在高鐵就是因為運量屢創新高，平日的時候很滿，就和假日一樣；假日時也很滿，就和國定假日一樣！所以才要調度車輛。你們不是也有購置車輛，但是兩年後才會交車？"],["陳次長彥伯：所以他們現在正在處理車輛購置的問題。"],["葉委員元之：對，就是兩年後嘛！所以現在要當董事長的人，他要有運輸的專長，要知道怎麼做到安全，而且讓車輛調度順利，讓旅客搭乘高鐵的時候可以更舒適，這才是現在高鐵的重點！結果政院知情人士卻說行銷？行銷是什麼意思？行銷就是要讓市場擴大啊！意思是說高鐵現在的市場不夠，希望能夠招攬更多旅客，讓運量更加提升，這是政院人士說的史哲接任理由。","次長，你能夠接受嗎？當然，你會說這是媒體報導啦！但是媒體報導的知情人士說法，你可以接受嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我還是要重申，剛才說的媒體相關報導我不評論！"],["葉次長元之：本席是問你，你認不認同這樣的說法？"],["陳次長彥伯：其實剛才我也說過，要經營一家公司需要各方面的整合，不管是人也好或者是專業也好，要共同凝聚公司的營運。"],["葉委員元之：對。所以專業……"],["陳次長彥伯：所以剛才特別提到專業這個部分，不管是車輛調度、安全、控管、營運、財務或者行銷也好，其實都需要一群人幫忙，所以我覺得作為一個CEO，他一定也有專業啦！"],["葉委員元之：沒關係。本席再問你，那個知情人士說史哲會溝通，因為高鐵不管北延或南延，都需要他運用在地方政府服務的經驗去和地方政府溝通，你認同這樣的說法嗎？本席想問一下，高鐵南延或北延是由高鐵董事長決定嗎？還是由交通部鐵道局決定？"],["陳次長彥伯：高鐵南延或是往宜蘭北延等等，應該是由鐵道局策劃。但是後續……"],["葉委員元之：當然是鐵道局決定嘛！至於和地方政府的溝通，本席舉一個例子。像南延到屏東這件事情，2019年，當時的高雄市長是韓國瑜，大家都知道南延有四個方案，就是高雄方案、左營方案和另外兩個方案。韓國瑜選的是高雄方案，但是行政院長蘇貞昌認為應該選擇左營方案，當時也沒有和地方政府溝通啊！就是交通部說了算，行政院拍板！隔了幾年之後政策轉彎才變成高雄方案。","本席提這件事情只是要說明一件事，就是要用什麼人都是行政院決定的啦！史哲要接高鐵董事長，可能也不是次長可以決定的，本席不知道是誰決定的，因為今天部長不在。但是每一次要用人時都出來說這些有的沒的，說什麼行銷專長啦！高鐵行銷有待強化啦！要運用他在地方政府服務的經驗去和地方政府溝通，本席覺得這樣大家聽不下去！召委，再給本席一點時間。","現在史哲要來當高鐵董事長，原本的高鐵董事長鄭光遠去接臺鐵董事長。鄭光遠接高鐵董事長才四個月而已，對不對？請問一下，他到高鐵才四個月，正準備大刀闊斧的時候，不好意思喔！請你改去臺鐵，有人這樣安排人事的嗎？鄭光遠才是真正有交通專長嘛！他是交通大學的博士，如果真的需要調度車輛之類的，當然是鄭光遠更具備這樣的專長啊！本席不知道交通部現在把鄭光遠調到臺鐵，是要解決臺鐵什麼問題？"],["陳次長彥伯：剛才說到鄭董事長有其專業，所以他以後接掌臺鐵公司，也一定會發揮他的專業。"],["葉委員元之：當然，我們也很期待啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：臺鐵公司化以後，不管是制度、典章或者相關業務推展，都需要具有專業的人來領導，所以我覺得他非常適當。剛才提到史哲政委的部分，剛才我也特別提到，政委也有一定的專業性，他就其專業領導高鐵公司，我覺得一定也可以融入整個團隊，有助於業務發展。"],["葉委員元之：請次長特別注意一件事情，臺鐵近半年吊車撞車的事故不斷發生，你應該知道吧？你們可不可以解決這個問題？因為這和安全有關，好不好？你們如果要把鄭光遠董事長調派……"],["陳次長彥伯：董事長交代，他們有特別列管。關於安全的部分如何提升，如果有必要的話……"],["葉委員元之：是有列管，但最近還是一直發生，這件事情一定要特別注意一下。謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","現在登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；林俊憲委員、徐欣瑩委員、麥玉珍委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162474","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162474","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c952e34212e62bd9cd8c2a0f21558b58c3280ca7c7326cebf4ad8eac70585468305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:26:00 - 13:33:51","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T13:26:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T13:33:51+08:00","duration":471,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.61221875,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.77221875,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.353468750000001,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.80471875,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.96659375,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.34346875,"end":53.322218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":54.267218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.50346875,"end":79.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.37284375,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.34659375000001,"end":93.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.34534375000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.11284375000001,"end":140.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.48971875,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.32096875000002,"end":172.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.02534375000002,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.32659375,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.54971875,"end":200.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.85346875000002,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.92784375000002,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.94471875000002,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.08159375000002,"end":222.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.00034375,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.11346875,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.23534375000003,"end":234.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.18409375000002,"end":243.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.79409375,"end":286.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.72471875,"end":299.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.76471875000004,"end":323.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.75659375000004,"end":343.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.96034375000005,"end":381.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.73221875,"end":346.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.18221875,"end":386.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.45159375000003,"end":392.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.54346875000005,"end":398.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.68596875000003,"end":402.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.55034375,"end":417.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.78846875000005,"end":430.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.03971875,"end":446.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.58971875000003,"end":469.54409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.34159375,"end":471.48471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.853,"end":31.344,"text":"主席有請我們的次長陳政事委員好市長午安那今天我們的審查報交管理處罰條例主要是針對無照駕駛的問題這個議題我應該事實上是最早就在這邊提出來強力要求我們的交通部一定要"},{"start":32.644,"end":57.96,"text":"重視那因為我從過去跟專家學者的會議當中國內外的研究文獻都看到了這個問題的嚴重性也感謝交通部在我提出後持續延伸解決方案不過今天我還是有點希望部會可以留意的就是在此之前呢我就提醒過交通部上次諮詢高齡的議題目前到現在還是沒有收到您的任何報告"},{"start":59.741,"end":85.003,"text":"上次質疑的時候部長就已經答應我說兩週後要那上次要交的報告也就遲到了那現在依然是如此所以我這週是也就明天就要邀請跨部會的會議來討論此事還請我們次長這邊是不是務必要求業務單位可不可以不要遲交報告那迅速的能夠提供提交 謝謝"},{"start":86.444,"end":87.885,"text":"上午照駕駛的這個傷亡 你們自己"},{"start":94.66,"end":122.759,"text":"運營所也做過一些研究一個受傷181萬一個死亡1600萬所以如果事故成長將近22%的話年平均我們的社會成本將近千億那我們就來看就是說跟國際相比的話我們的一些法的規定就是對違規則只是繳錢跟上課那課程內容還有待商榷可是相較於國外"},{"start":124.127,"end":140.146,"text":"不僅事實上是將無照四維行事責任而且更配合祭典跟同城者的連帶處罰強化他律的機制我相信市長也相當清楚所以想問市長你覺得怎麼樣是最有效的怎麼樣處罰是最有效"},{"start":142.943,"end":171.387,"text":"我想委員特別提到的這些的做法其實在我們這一次處罰條例的修正尤其是有關無照的部分其實我們大概都朝這個方向來做當然這裡頭如果特別提到是不是有配合相關刑法的那是另外一個問題因為我們道路交通管理處罰條例並不是應該是行政法我們並沒有行政刑法因為我們看日本跟新加坡"},{"start":171.847,"end":199.506,"text":"我要特别跟委员特别提到这是很多人经常会提到的因为我国的这个法律的体系里头行政法跟刑法是分开的那像日本的话就是行政刑法所以他你会看到他有刑法在里面那美国的话他就本来就是在刑法在做处理所以我觉得这个制度上也有所不同那原则上呢我们大概会跟法务部共同努力譬如说像那个这个酒驾的部分就有要180"},{"start":202.148,"end":214.237,"text":"我覺得五道駕駛比酒駕還更嚴重可是我們一直過去長期事實上是比較沒有關注那可是事實上酒駕防治跟國外政策的經驗都告訴我們如果能夠配合後車處罰的話"},{"start":216.258,"end":243.122,"text":"就可以有效降低違規則對於道路交通安全的危害性也可以受到立即嚇阻的效用在所以除此之外交通部在思考無照駕駛的防治對策的時候也有一些有沒有去參考相關研究那你現在制定的相關政策又是依據什麼因為前一陣子對外宣示的增加罰環那我不知道部會的依據又是什麼有沒有任何科學的一些根據所在"},{"start":246.966,"end":262.828,"text":"我想委員特別提到這個罰款其實罰款為什麼會有做這樣的一個處理剛才其實很多委員也大概都有質詢就是有關這個酒駕其實為什麼會這樣我們為什麼會提出說比照酒駕是因為我們看到"},{"start":263.368,"end":290.316,"text":"它的危險的一個程度或者是違規的情勢其實是遠遠高於酒駕的所以而且酒駕的話因為有那樣的一個罰款的一個設計所以我們可以發現它的違規的情勢drop很多所以我們認為說在這個無照駕駛的部分如果能夠比照的話可以達到一定的一個效果所以採用這樣的方式我到現在針對無照駕駛當然有很多建議啦像罰款啦 公共運輸的普及啊"},{"start":291.316,"end":316.047,"text":"補助駕訓教育降低考照的年齡可是我覺得很多的東西應該可能都要更慎重那我們再來看就是說今天舉例來講在駕訓的部分其實公路局也很認真的在推我知道也有搭配研究來驗證加強我們的政策的正當性可是政策很好可是沒有辦法"},{"start":317.307,"end":343.533,"text":"我跟委員報告或許是我們還沒有把整個的這個有關機車的考照的未來幾年的改把這個納入這個訓練啊甚至入考的這整套的一個配套措施來跟社會大眾做說明或是向委員做說明原則上我們朝這個方向在做努力"},{"start":344.033,"end":368.059,"text":"我希望能夠普及 因為既然效果好的話就要考慮那再來就是我提安駕的補助是因為國外已經實施多年一直都有一個不錯的效果在而這類考照前的駕駛教育訓練也是推動GDAL那個漸進式的駕照考照的一個基礎在我相信交通部也都知道如果我們在制度上能夠讓所有考照的學習者"},{"start":369.119,"end":390.196,"text":"都有幼嬰願意去參與考照前的學習的話那未來也有機制可以具體去提升我們的家訓班的教學品質跟量能才有辦法有效解決我們目前第一個是雞腿換照的問題而且讓民眾可以重視我們駕照的取得跟駕駛能力的養成而且GDL的這個三階段的"},{"start":392.858,"end":415.552,"text":"機制才能夠順利推動這畢竟是我們接下來要面對的問題你沒有辦法馬上普及的話至少有些訓練在的話才可以讓我們下降有沒有譬如說配合學習駕照或者是這樣一直到完全駕駛這樣的一個考慮所以我認為這是未來考慮年齡下修就是考照年齡下修的大前提我希望能夠去做所以減少無照駕駛違規我主張"},{"start":417.893,"end":446.226,"text":"除了罰錢以外應該要多元的配套的管理的措施那還有一些完善的資料的建置跟系統性的分析來建立科學化的那個公共政策的規劃平台還有未來我覺得還是要朝向是不是漸進式的考照制度真的要不要下修到16歲那你的配套的這些東西可能要做才有辦法達到那再麻煩次郎這邊針對我三點主張 務必注意然後另外一個報告可能競速給我們"},{"start":447.745,"end":470.889,"text":"我們報告相關要給委員的高齡的這個報告我們會盡快來提送那至於委員特別提到健訊室的考照其實我們現在有關學習駕照啦或者是處理考令駕照的者給他不同的這樣的一個管理的制度都在實施那後委員提供的這樣的建議我們看後續如何融入在我們的規劃方案裡面好謝謝教務部辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1156,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時26分）主席，請次長。"],["主席：陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：次長午安。今天之所以審查道交管理處罰條例，主要是針對無照駕駛的問題。針對這個議題，本席應該是最早在這邊提出來的，且強力要求交通部一定要重視。從過去專家學者的會議當中或是國內外的研究文獻，都看到這個問題的嚴重性，也感謝交通部在本席提出之後，持續研商解決方案。","不過今天有一個問題希望交通部可以留意。之前本席就提醒過交通部，就是上次質詢的高齡議題，但是到現在還是沒有收到你們的任何報告。上次質詢的時候，部長已經答應兩週後要交報告，但是遲到了，現在依然是如此。這一週，也就是明天，就要召開跨部會的會議討論此事，請次長務必要求業務單位不要遲交報告，請你們迅速提供、提交，謝謝。","關於無照駕駛造成的傷亡，運研所也做過一些研究，一個人受傷的成本是181萬元，死亡的部分是1,600萬元，如果事故件數成長將近22%的話，我們的年平均社會成本就將近千億元。和國際相比，我們在法令規定方面，違規者只需繳錢和上課，但課程內容還有待商榷。相較於國外，不僅將無照視為刑事責任，而且還配合記點，並對同乘者連帶處罰，強化他律的機制，本席相信這部分次長也相當清楚。所以想問次長，你覺得怎麼樣處罰是最有效的？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員特別提到的這些做法，其實在這次處罰條例的修正，尤其是有關無照的部分，大概都是朝這個方向。至於委員特別提到是不是配合刑法修正，則是另外一個問題，因為道路交通管理處罰條例是行政法，我們並沒有行政刑法。"],["林委員月琴：對，但日本和新加坡都有配合。"],["陳次長彥伯：我要向委員特別說明，這也是很多人經常會提到的。在我國的法律體系裡頭，行政法和刑法是分開的，但是像日本就是行政刑法，所以你會看到有刑法在裡面，至於美國本來就是在刑法處理，制度上也有所不同。原則上我們會和法務部共同努力，比如酒駕的部分，刑法第一百八十五條之三就可以處理。"],["林委員月琴：本席覺得無照駕駛比酒駕更嚴重，可是我們過去比較沒有關注。事實上酒駕防制和國外政策、經驗都告訴我們，如果能夠配合扣車處罰的話，就可以有效降低違規者對於道路交通安全的危害性，也可以收到立即嚇阻的效用。除此之外，交通部在思考無照駕駛的防制對策時，有沒有參考相關研究？你們現在制定的相關政策又是依據什麼？因為前一陣子對外宣示會增加罰鍰，部會的依據是什麼？有沒有任何科學根據？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員特別提到罰鍰，為什麼會做這樣的處理？其實剛才很多委員大概都有質詢，比照酒駕的部分。我們為什麼會提出比照酒駕？因為我們看到它的危險程度或者違規情事，其實遠遠高於酒駕。而且酒駕因為有那樣的罰鍰設計，我們發現它的違規情形drop很多，所以我們認為無照駕駛如果能夠比照的話，可以達到一定的效果，所以才會採用這樣的方式。"],["林委員月琴：本席知道現在針對無照駕駛有很多建議，像罰鍰、提升公共運輸的普及度、補助駕訓教育、降低考照的年齡，可是本席覺得很多事情可能要更慎重。舉例來說，在駕訓的部分，本席知道其實公路局也很認真在推動，也有搭配研究、驗證，加強政策的正當性。現在是政策很好，可是沒有辦法普及，本席不知道為什麼這個政策很好卻沒辦法普及？次長，這部分你們是不是遇到什麼障礙或者困難？"],["陳次長彥伯：或許是我們還沒有把有關機車考照未來要納入訓練，甚至是路考的整套配套措施向社會大眾說明或是向委員說明，原則上我們是朝這個方向努力。"],["林委員月琴：本席希望能夠普及，為什麼？既然效果好的話，就要考慮這麼做。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["林委員月琴：再來就是本席提的安駕補助，因為國外已經實施多年，一直都有不錯的效果，而且這類考照前的駕駛教育訓練，也是推動GDL漸進式駕照考照的基礎，本席相信交通部都知道。如果我們在制度上能夠讓所有考照的學習者都有誘因，願意去參與考照前的學習，未來也有機制可以具體提升駕訓班的教學品質和量能，這樣才有辦法有效解決目前的問題，其中第一個就是雞腿換照的問題，讓民眾可以重視駕照的取得和駕駛能力的養成，如此GDL這三階段的機制才能夠順利推動。","畢竟這是我們接下來要面對的問題，如果沒有辦法馬上普及，至少有經過這些訓練，這樣才可以讓事故率下降，例如配合學習駕照或者是一直到獲得完全駕駛的認證。本席認為這是未來考慮考照年齡下修的大前提，這也是本席希望你們去做的。所以減少無照駕駛違規，本席主張除了罰錢以外，應該要有多元的配套管理措施，還有一些完善的資料建制和系統性的分析，建立科學化的公共政策規劃平台。","還有，未來本席覺得還是要朝向漸進式的考照制度發展，至於要不要下修到16歲？你們可能要有配套才有辦法達到。再麻煩次長，本席這三點主張務必要注意。另外，報告要儘速給我們。"],["陳次長彥伯：要給委員的高齡駕駛報告，我們會儘快提送。至於委員特別提到的漸進式考照，其實現在有關學習駕照，或者針對考領駕照者，都有不同的管理制度，這些都在實施。委員提供的建議，我們會看後續如何融入到規劃方案裡面，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝交通部，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","林思銘、林思銘，林思銘委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","現在請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9bde7023f55b83a678c2a0f21558b58c3280ca7c7326cebf4d074087a6b2f41335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:10:47 - 13:17:59","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T13:10:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T13:17:59+08:00","duration":432,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.34659375,"end":8.333468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.24471875,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.57721875,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.14659375,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.33534375,"end":26.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.47409375,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.48096875,"end":39.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.95721875,"end":54.351593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.908468750000004,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.95846875,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.93221875,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.96159375,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.75409375000001,"end":77.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.24659375,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.82409375,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.50721875,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.58721875,"end":90.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.03784375000001,"end":101.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.49596875,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.47034375000001,"end":105.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.27596875,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.07284375,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.74346875,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.56534375000001,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.39159375000001,"end":129.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.32284375,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.55784375000002,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.32534375,"end":146.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.67034375,"end":179.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.15596875,"end":173.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.50159375,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.91846875000002,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.13409375,"end":204.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.54221875000002,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.80971875,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.44534375,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.90784375,"end":278.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.81909375,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.97096875000003,"end":251.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.61159375,"end":303.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.88659375000003,"end":360.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.00409375000004,"end":386.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.91971875,"end":388.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.66221875,"end":388.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.69596875,"end":388.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.71284375000005,"end":388.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.81409375000004,"end":392.54346875000005},{"sp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楊群發言 邀請次長次長委員好無照重大事故頻傳 所以我們要如何有效的來"},{"start":23.359,"end":48.24,"text":"遏制 這是我們討論的一個重點那所以呢 要請教 因為目前我們看到有衝撞騎樓 也有撞飛行人甚至爆衝 爆衝連環追撞那在這樣的情況之下 造成了很多的死傷那根據統計 台灣每一年大概有三四十萬件的事故當然其中有五萬件是無照架式"},{"start":49.02,"end":64.307,"text":"換句話說 照總數的大概六分之一到七分之一左右的這個乘數那死傷的人 死亡的人員有六百多人六萬多人受傷是酒駕釀成死傷的多少倍 六倍"},{"start":66.048,"end":90.086,"text":"所以呢 這個無照事故呢 不僅它是多 而且在增加我沒有看到日本 美國 新加坡他們在無照駕駛的部分呢 除了行政法之外 他有刑法他有刑法 他並且還有設計扣車甚至取消駕駛的資格 那麼也這個同層的人呢 那也做處分 也做處分"},{"start":91.528,"end":101.523,"text":"當然我們不是說一定要通通都學別人但是學界認為台灣無照駕駛的成本過低"},{"start":102.54,"end":129.739,"text":"那政府應該要拿出方案所以我要請教部長次長最近在修法你們也提出修法修法你是說未來無照駕駛的部分懲處的部分要比照酒駕的方式來懲處這就第一個要加重滑軟而且累犯的部分呢滑軟的部分說是要無上限那也包括了當場吊扣車子"},{"start":131,"end":146.077,"text":"那也包括了車主連帶重罰等等的這些方向所以我要請教 目前你們的進度如何 到底你的細節是什麼 你的經驗又是什麼 你預期的效果又是什麼 請做說明"},{"start":147.637,"end":171.048,"text":"我想跟委員做一個說明就是有關委員也了解說我們對於無照駕駛認為要比照酒駕來做處理其實就有幾個層面分開來就駕照的部分跟車輛的部分駕駛人部分跟車那駕駛人部分又會區分他是無照駕駛機車或者是汽車所以他本身無照駕駛的這個"},{"start":172.449,"end":172.829,"text":"這個就是討論無照駕駛的部分"},{"start":202.689,"end":228.659,"text":"所以你都要付出代價那這是駕照的部分那駕照的部分除了罰款以外還會做吊扣的處理吊扣駕照會依照你的勤節有一到兩年的兩到四年的甚至致人重傷或死亡的是屬於終身吊照的部分這是駕照的部分那車輛的部分你看那部無照駕駛的車輛他就會當場一致保管一致保管的同時就是會當場一致保管"},{"start":229.079,"end":256.491,"text":"一致保管以後就會做吊扣駕照吊扣牌照的處理那也會依照他的次數第一次依照他的情節對三個月六個月到一年不等那當然剛剛有特別提到車輛所有人不是駕駛人的時候他也要併罰相關的一個處罰也是連帶罰對連帶罰那有學者建議也就是說吊扣駕照仍然是無照駕駛因為這一塊很多"},{"start":259.012,"end":278.739,"text":"有一些數字所以有學者認為必須納入刑法那累犯更應該要有累犯你剛剛說的這個罰則才能夠抑制一些危險駕駛他就是怎麼樣圖一個僥倖的心態 賭一個不會被抓到的心態那我們政府的立場是如何呢"},{"start":280.666,"end":302.87,"text":"是為了要讓大家對於無照駕駛很正式的無照駕駛是在對於車輛或是行駛一個車輛自我一個責任很重要所以我們在這裡才會希望說他累罰而且無上限透過這個重罰來遏止那另外剛剛委員特別提到是不是要用刑罰的部分那個可能就是要請法務部看怎麼樣來做相關的考慮"},{"start":302.99,"end":331.066,"text":"要去研議啦 因為其他國家有那不一定我們都跟著人家一樣但是我們的這樣子的事件一直在增加這個是 對不起人民那我們要怎麼樣有制度有法條 然後有效的我想這是非常重要因為我們談到累犯的部分呢無照駕駛跟酒駕駛一樣的所以累犯的機率是非常的高我看到這個數字近三年來無照駕駛被抓到的數量"},{"start":333.227,"end":360.347,"text":"數字是18萬到20萬人次也就是說累犯就佔了將近三分之二就將近佔了三分之二所以對於要如何的遏止無照累犯本席認為應該要有所應對這個是非常的重要因為他佔了將近這個三分之二所以呢本席要在這邊也就提出金額的部分呢剛剛你沒回答本席"},{"start":361.067,"end":386.457,"text":"因為大家都提案那也就是說目前最高上限是罰的是兩萬四那也有人將本席所連署所提的是三萬六最高上限那其他的如果累犯的情況有甚至說希望到這個嚴重型態的到十萬那不知道行政部門你們到底到目前為止你的方向是如何呢"},{"start":387.95,"end":416.888,"text":"金額的部分原則上剛才委員特別提到的這個三萬六的這樣的一個法王上線的這一部分呢其實我們都有朝這個方向在做規劃那詳細的一個規劃的一個情形我們在六月底的時候會提出來六月底提出那方向也是朝三萬六為上線的這個方向對我們有不同的這個對等級嘛我就是在上線到時候社會上就可以了解我們相關的一個"},{"start":417.108,"end":431.706,"text":"第一個一定會 結論就是說第一個一定會加重這個罰金會加重那委員也有提出的上限從兩萬四提升到三萬六你們也朝這個方向去延移然後在六月底的時候會正式跟社會大眾公告是是是好 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人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162472","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c942883a7e880912498c2a0f21558b58c3280ca7c7326cebf4c918614e2a6c40d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"13:04:56 - 13:10:32","影片長度":"00:05:36","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T13:04:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T13:10:32+08:00","duration":336,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.83221875,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":4.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.68846875,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.00909375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.042843750000001,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.113468750000003,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.48846875,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.37846875,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.39534375,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.42909375,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.73284375,"end":44.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.10784375,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.95159375,"end":49.829093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.735968750000005,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.72221875,"end":58.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.73909375,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.75596875,"end":59.954093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.77284375000001,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.595343750000005,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.38346875,"end":67.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.48034375,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.80471875,"end":78.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.46659375,"end":75.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.56721875000001,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.84221875,"end":146.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.99534375000002,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.56034375000002,"end":179.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.67784375000002,"end":200.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.24846875,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.03784375,"end":248.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.81784375,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.06409375,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.36346875,"end":260.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.92284375,"end":322.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.33909375,"end":326.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.78596875,"end":334.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.52284375000005,"end":336.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.95721875000004,"end":336.97409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.067,"end":5.569,"text":"謝謝主席 次長有請好 陳次長喂"},{"start":12.708,"end":37.875,"text":"市長 午安我們今天討論盜交管理處罰條例這個稍早本席在做提案說明的時候其實有談有關於噪音車的問題那我先請教一下交通部自從2025年我們在改裝排氣管這樣的一個認證制度正式上路之後現在抓到了多少的違規案件那請問你們這邊跟環境部這邊有沒有做統整這樣子的一個制度上路之後改裝排氣管噪音車擾民的狀況有沒有減少"},{"start":43.129,"end":52.215,"text":"如果有數字的麻煩你們說明一下好不好來陳局長就是目前舉發這個違規有兩萬多件兩萬八千多件這兩萬八千多件是"},{"start":60.812,"end":77.711,"text":"是各類的各類的設備設備的這個缺失的一個違規排氣管嘛 我問的是排氣管 噪音車嘛我們今天討論噪音車的問題嘛是不是因為排氣管的那個部分我想我們還要再做還要有細部數據對 因為他那個條款裡面有包括好幾類設備"},{"start":78.792,"end":99.915,"text":"來這樣子好了 這個今年是2025嘛 2024因為去年今年新制舊制上路之前差別有沒有出來 這是本席要非常關心的因為大家都非常討厭 噪音車半夜擾民的一個狀況那大家都希望不管是中央還是地方 都可以來針對這個東西來做源頭的取締跟查緝嘛那你講今年有兩萬八千件 但不全是白氣管嘛 那是所有的改裝類型嘛"},{"start":100.996,"end":120.787,"text":"那這裡面排氣管有多少同樣在去年的時候排氣管的改裝類型有多少請你會後幫我整理資料好不好我們做一個修法一個參考那提案的部分其實我們剛剛都已經說得非常清楚了這個罰則的部分要往上加嘛第二個檢驗驗車的費用當然是要自行負擔我們就把明文入法所以我看到你們交通部的回覆基本上就是尊重審查結果"},{"start":121.667,"end":144.633,"text":"那我們到達法條審查的時候我們再來做討論那今天另外一點點時間我們還是要請教一下我們長期關心大眾運輸的一個問題這一段時間這個今年開始我們編列補助這個公路客運業者的預算這去年是16億嘛對不對今年是24億大概有一個比較顯著的一個增加這本來本期就非常支持我們一向都非常支持大眾運輸我還嫌你增加的不夠但問題是好像"},{"start":147.114,"end":175.671,"text":"上路起來這個結果還是蠻糟糕的像本溪選區南崁這個地方前幾天還是出現了這個因為一個司機感冒請假拖班拖三班那所有這個上班族通勤族大排長龍卡在那邊上不了車叫苦連天那這樣一個狀況顯然沒有改善那每次我們去詢問客運業者他還是這樣講我的司機還是找不到人那我請問你你增加補助之後好針對客運業者的這個司機的缺額的問題有沒有顯著的改善"},{"start":176.636,"end":179.585,"text":"你的這個相關的一些數據能不能提供來請回答"},{"start":182.255,"end":206.85,"text":"數據我們會提供啦因為對於就是說各客運業者缺員的這個部分其實公路局都有相關的一個協助跟業者一起招募啦那對於就是說他招募的時候相關譬如說這一個訓練費用或者是在訓練期間的生活津貼其實我們都有那從這個去年到現在我記得應該是我們招募應該有多大概有一千位"},{"start":207.69,"end":223.994,"text":"這一個全國的這個駕駛不過就是因為他也是分到這一個各個縣市包括這一個這個客運業者或市區公車的業者那這個部分我想委員所提到那個案例我們也了解那確實那個業者他因為我們去查他也說是這個駕駛這個臨時這個身體有狀況這樣子案例其實多不勝數"},{"start":229.956,"end":256.703,"text":"好這樣子我們還是用通盤的角度來看這個事就是說你既然有所謂的大顆車駕駛擴大徵才獎勵就業方案對不對那推動以來你招募到多少心血人力缺口還有多少針對這個缺口你的配套措施是什麼好這三個問題你一樣會後好不好你把這段整理好來整理給本席來做後續的參考我可以先提供給委員一個數據好請從那個開始擴大徵才以來大概有3800多人的透過這樣方式來招募相關的駕駛人"},{"start":257.603,"end":281.191,"text":"那至於詳細的數字我想公路局會會後再問我關鍵要問的是缺口還有多少因為顯然你增加禁用駕駛之後我班次沒有增加我只是本來要裁測要收班的班次我保留了嘛因為我先補了一批人進來但是大家期待不只是看到保留嘛還是在上下班特別亮眼的時間能夠增加班次然後有效輸運甚至導引大家從機車機車改做大眾運輸這才是大家想要看到的交通模式嘛"},{"start":281.411,"end":302.382,"text":"好 所以一定還有缺口缺口是多少 這你會有提供本期給一個建議除了說你有些補助尤其是職前訓練的部分大概花了比較多的心力之外但改善勞動環境是很重要的就很多客廳業者雖然薪水電得蠻高的可是可能是什麼長途津貼啦加班費啦這些各式各樣的東西加起來的那這個加起來的也很容易被扣掉你就遲到等等你就罰就扣"},{"start":303.402,"end":321.816,"text":"就一來一往 朝三暮四待遇還是不好所以我是建議交通部這邊針對客運業者應該給予的薪資項目底薪要高一點嘛 對不對津貼什麼的比例來做一下調整針對這樣子的一個薪資結構然後讓勞動環境的改善能夠有一套設算標準這個能不能請交通部先來開始來做一下研議"},{"start":323.453,"end":336.196,"text":"這部分我們會請公路局來做一下好不好 因為公路局把待遇做待遇功課來做好 我們來做長時間的追蹤跟研討我們都希望這個客運的資源不只要加大投入而且要有效的投入 可以嗎是好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1074,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時5分）謝謝主席。次長有請。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長午安。我們今天討論道路交通管理處罰條例，稍早本席在做提案說明的時候有談到關於噪音車的問題。我先請教一下交通部，自從2025年改裝排氣管的認證制度正式上路之後，現在抓到了多少的違規案件？請問你們跟環境部有沒有做統整？在制度上路之後，改裝排氣管、噪音車擾民的狀況有沒有減少？"],["陳次長彥伯：數字的部分麻煩陳局長說明一下好不好？"],["主席：請陳局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：目前舉發違規有二萬八千多件。"],["牛委員煦庭：這二萬八千多件是？"],["陳局長文瑞：是各類設備缺失的違規，不過……"],["牛委員煦庭：排氣管，我問的是排氣管、噪音車，我們今天討論噪音車的問題。"],["陳局長文瑞：排氣管的部分，我想我們還要再做……"],["牛委員煦庭：還要有細部數據的分析？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，因為條款裡面包括好幾類設備。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年是2025年、去年2024年，在新制上路之前與舊制的差別有沒有出來？這是本席非常關心的。大家都非常討厭噪音車半夜擾民，希望不管中央還是地方都可以對此做源頭取締跟查緝。你講今年有2萬8,000件，但不全是排氣管，那是所有的改裝類型，這裡面排氣管有多少？同樣，去年排氣管的改裝類型有多少？請你會後整理資料給我，好不好？我們做為修法的參考。"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：提案的部分我們剛剛都已經說得非常清楚了，罰則部分要往上加，第二個是檢驗（驗車）費用當然是要自行負擔，我們就把它明文入法。我看交通部的回復基本上就是尊重審查結果，所以到法條審查的時候再來做討論。","還有一點點時間我要請教一下，我們長期關心大眾運輸的問題，今年開始編列補助公路客運業者的預算，去年是16億，今年是24億，有比較顯著的增加，本席也非常支持。我們一向都非常支持大眾運輸，我還嫌你增加的不夠，但問題是，上路之後的結果還是蠻糟糕的。像本席選區南崁，前幾天因為一個司機感冒請假，脫班脫了三班，讓所有上班族、通勤族大排長龍，卡在那邊上不了車，叫苦連天，這樣的狀況顯然沒有改善！每次我們去詢問客運業者，他還是這樣講：我還是找不到司機。我請問你，增加補助之後，客運業者司機的缺額問題有沒有顯著改善？相關的一些數據能不能提供？請回答。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，數據我們會提供。對於各客運業者缺員的部分，其實公路局都有協助跟業者一起招募，且招募時的訓練費用或訓練期間的生活津貼其實都有。從去年到現在我記得我們大概招募了1,000位全國的駕駛，分到各個縣市，包括客運業者或市區公車的業者。至於委員所提到那個案例我們也去了解，確實，業者在我們去查時也說是駕駛臨時生病……"],["牛委員煦庭：說是身體有狀況！"],["陳局長文瑞：對，身體有狀況就脫班了。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣的案例其實多不勝數，所以我們還是用通盤的角度來看這件事。你們有所謂的大客車駕駛擴大徵才獎勵就業方案，對不對？推動以來招募到多少新血？人力缺口還有多少？針對這個缺口你的配套措施是什麼？這三個問題你一樣會後把資料整理好，提供給本席做後續的參考。"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳次長彥伯：我可以先提供給委員一個數據。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，請。"],["陳次長彥伯：從開始擴大徵才以來大概有三千八百多人，透過這樣的方式來招募相關的駕駛人，至於詳細的數字我想公路局會後再……"],["牛委員煦庭：我問題的關鍵是缺口還有多少？因為顯然增加進用駕駛之後班次並沒有增加！只是本來要裁撤、要收班的班次保留了，因為先補了一批人進來，但是大家期待的不是只看到保留，還是在上下班特別的時間能夠增加班次，有效輸運，甚至導引大家從汽車、機車改坐大眾運輸，這才是大家想要看到的交通模式。所以一定還有缺口，缺口是多少？你會後提供我。本席給你一個建議，除了在補助，尤其是職前訓練的部分大概花了比較多的心力之外，但改善勞動環境是很重要的。很多客運業者雖然薪水都墊得蠻高的，比如長途津貼、加班費，把這些各式各樣東西加起來！但加起來的也很容易被扣掉，遲到就罰、就扣，一來一往，朝三暮四，待遇還是不好。所以我建議交通部針對客運業者應該給予的薪資項目改進，比如底薪要高一點，對不對？或津貼什麼的比例來做一下調整，針對這樣的薪資結構做調整，讓勞動環境的改善，並有一套設算標準，這些能不能請交通部先開始做一下研議？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想這部分我們會請公路局做研議。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，請公路局把它帶回去當作功課來做，我們來做長時間的追蹤跟研討。我們都希望客運的資源不只要加大投入，而且要有效的投入，可以嗎？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162471","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162471","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9810b08cf237443af8c2a0f21558b58c3280ca7c7326cebf476d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:58:01 - 13:04:42","影片長度":"00:06:41","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T12:58:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T13:04:42+08:00","duration":401,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.68471875,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9672187500000002,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.27846875,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.97346875,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.00721875,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.024093750000006,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.486593750000004,"end":55.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.64034375,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.25909375,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.65096875,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.30034375000001,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.86534375000001,"end":91.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.47659375,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.16346875,"end":101.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.70284375,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.97284375000001,"end":103.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.09471875000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.27909375,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.31284375000001,"end":113.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.92034375,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.59534375000001,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.18596875,"end":115.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.62096875,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.95846875,"end":143.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.97034375,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.11784375000002,"end":185.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.40971875000002,"end":168.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.55471875,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.58846875,"end":188.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.57971875,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.38034375,"end":198.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.68346875,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.56471875000003,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.72221875000002,"end":268.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.24721875,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.56284375,"end":271.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.30909375000005,"end":286.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.26471875000004,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.89659375,"end":299.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.56721875,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.14034375,"end":299.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.29221875,"end":310.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.92721875,"end":344.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.19659375000003,"end":344.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3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我們請次長 陳次長好 陳次長"},{"start":11.402,"end":31.828,"text":"市長好 今天是要討論道路交通管理處罰條例本席也有提案 博論今天是詢答當初我提案是針對無照駕駛但是現在除了無照駕駛的問題之外還有高齡駕駛的問題 甚至有兩個合在一起的問題可是行政院好像交通管理版本還沒有送過來有關無照駕駛還有高齡駕駛的部分"},{"start":36.989,"end":50.799,"text":"這個條文我們正又再做稍微的一個修正然後我們會在六月底送到行政院去六月底好那我先講這個無照駕駛好了無照駕駛我本來我的提案就是只有這個加重罰則但是後來發現說這個不曉得這個為什麼這個事件"},{"start":55.162,"end":83.351,"text":"呃 層出不窮不知道是之前媒體沒有去關注到還是怎麼樣因為三峽那件事情之後大家才注意到說無照駕駛高齡駕駛的事情那所以說我按照齁 這個陳部長他所講的齁你們這個 這個處罰條例齁將會說這個將這個無照駕駛比照酒駕當場吊扣車輛及牌照那車主連帶重罰而且累犯罰款無上限大概是這個方向嗎"},{"start":85.802,"end":102.529,"text":"這個方向在做處理好這個方向在做處理所以我剛剛所講的就是說如果他這一個是無照的話被抓到了當場就吊扣車輛還有拍照車輛我們會疑似保管然後吊扣拍照吊扣拍照那這個罰款呢"},{"start":105.477,"end":119.993,"text":"我們會規劃分它是無照機車或汽車有不同的罰款額度然後呢這個罰款沒有上限然後接下來是累犯設計上就是跟酒駕一樣第一次的話就是按照剛才講的這個"},{"start":123.716,"end":143.141,"text":"氣機車分開接下來累犯第二次會有給他一個額度然後第三次以上的以後就是一直加所謂加是把第一次第二次再加第三次然後如果你第四次就一二三四就一直這樣往下加所以叫做罰款沒有上限以上好那這是屬於這個無照駕駛部分那還有要補充說明的嗎"},{"start":146.144,"end":174.221,"text":"剛才也特別提到原則上就是駕駛跟車輛是一併做處理的啦所以剛才講到駕照如果你是無照駕駛的時候滑環以外無上限以外那另外會對於你無照的情節來做這個吊扣駕照或者是吊銷駕照的一個處理那你那一台這個無照駕駛開的車子剛才有講到當場一日保管以後就會有吊扣那吊扣也會有期限的不同"},{"start":174.961,"end":201.344,"text":"那如果你這個汽車駕駛人你去開的這部車不是你本人的話那一樣相關的這個汽車所有人該要做的處罰我們一併罰這樣那跟那個行為人是同樣的嗎行為人同樣當然就是一套的也就是說有關汽車跟不同一個人他相關的一個處罰其實是會是一樣的好那這是無照駕駛的部分那高齡駕駛的部分勒"},{"start":202.585,"end":215.949,"text":"高齡駕駛的部分原則上部長有特別提到我們原則上在未來的三個月內會提出相關的一個配套的一個措施那相關的一個方向不外乎就是提升高齡駕駛的一個安全以這樣的一個觀點去研擬後續的一個規劃"},{"start":219.15,"end":244.223,"text":"那這裡頭會去希望提高這個高齡駕駛人的這個危險感知或這個相關安全的知識對法規的了解所以它會有一個相關的一個講習那另外我們會跟這個駕駛會跟醫療會跟這個醫生或醫學會或是其他學者我們會組成一個交通部有一個駕駛人醫療諮詢委員會我們會去對於認知"},{"start":248.205,"end":271.08,"text":"功能的相關的如何更精進會去討論那第三個部分就是大家經常提到的如果是高風險的這個駕駛人我們如何認定如何判定然後如何來換照如何來限制他駕車這等等的一個配套那當然還有特別提到說是不是有要安裝其他的一個設備我想這個我們都一併再考量那換照年齡就是確定從75歲下修到70歲"},{"start":272.609,"end":290.336,"text":"原則上這個大家對於這個年齡的問題都持續在關注上那這部分我們會聽聽看大家的意見來做處理那原則上是以高風險的駕駛人來做處理好那所以這個都是我關於無照跟高齡駕駛都是六月份會送出來"},{"start":292.935,"end":309.853,"text":"是有關無照駕駛的處罰條例的修正條文那高齡的話我們大概8月底前會提出來好 那最後一個問題現在有關這個微型電動二輪車的這一個駕照的這個制度那請問一下你們現在對於這個微型電動二輪車有在做管理嗎"},{"start":312.964,"end":342.151,"text":"微型電動二輪車的話不管是從登記領牌那個或者是保險我們大概都有一系列的的管理的規定那在這裡頭我剛才我也特別說明就是有關駕照的話是跟現行的汽機車的管理上是有缺這個那這部分的我們後續會去跟教育部或相關單位去研究或地方政府去研究如何來對去騎乘微型電動二輪車的這個駕駛朋友來做一些相關的"},{"start":343.411,"end":363.601,"text":"講習或訓練現在是您滿14歲國中學生免訓練無駕駛就可以騎微型電動二輪車因為現行對於微型電動二輪車是把它定位為慢車那慢車就是這樣的跟腳踏車一樣所以是沒有駕照所以這部分你們要怎麼去做修正所以這部分駕照我剛才講對這一部分我們"},{"start":364.421,"end":393.433,"text":"會去跟相關單位來討論如何讓這個訓練落實在那裡頭譬如說學生跟學校或跟教育單位或是你賣車的人對賣出去的車子如何讓這個車輛所有人能夠有一些相關的訓練那所以原則上還是可以騎只是說你們多了教育訓練這樣子嗎是是是是這樣子蠻奇怪的啦就是那至於說是不是因為他是慢車啦是是是"},{"start":394.284,"end":399.02,"text":"我再跟你們討論一下 因為這個衍生還蠻多問題的 好不好 好像時間有限謝謝主席 謝謝市長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1035,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時58分）謝謝主席，我請陳次長。"],["主席：好，請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。今天討論的道路交通管理處罰條例，本席也有提案，不過今天是詢答，當初我提案是針對無照駕駛，但是現在除了無照駕駛的問題之外，還有高齡駕駛的問題，甚至有兩者合在一起的問題，可是交通部的版本還沒送過來，對不對？我是說有關無照駕駛還有高齡駕駛的部分。"],["陳次長彥伯：這個條文我們又稍作修正，會在6月底送到行政院去。"],["李委員坤城：6月底？好。我先講無照駕駛好了。針對無照駕駛，我的提案本來只有加重罰則，但是後來發現不曉得為什麼這類事件層出不窮，不知道是因為之前媒體沒有關注到還是怎麼樣，直到三峽那件事情之後，大家才注意到無照駕駛、高齡駕駛的事情。按照陳部長所講的，這個處罰條例會將無照駕駛比照酒駕，當場吊扣車輛及牌照，車主連帶重罰，而且累犯罰鍰無上限。大概是這個方向嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：朝這個方向在做處理。"],["李委員坤城：朝這個方向處理，所以是像我剛剛所講的，如果無照被抓到了，就當場吊扣車輛還有牌照？"],["陳次長彥伯：車輛會移置保管，並吊扣牌照。"],["李委員坤城：吊扣牌照？"],["陳次長彥伯：對。"],["李委員坤城：罰鍰呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：對於罰鍰，我們規劃分為無照駕駛機車與汽車，有不同罰鍰額度。"],["李委員坤城：然後罰鍰沒有上限？"],["陳次長彥伯：然後接下來是累犯，設計上就是跟酒駕一樣，第一次就是按照剛才講的，汽、機車分開；接下來累犯第二次會給他一個額度，第三次以後就是一直加，所謂加是把第一次、第二次再加第三次，然後如果第四次犯就一、二、三、四一直這樣往下加，所以叫做罰鍰沒有上限，以上。"],["李委員坤城：這是無照駕駛部分，還有要補充說明的嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：剛才有提到，原則上就是駕駛跟車輛是一併做處理的，所以如果是無照駕駛除罰鍰無上限以外，另外會對無照情節來做吊扣駕照或者是吊銷駕照的處理，至於無照駕駛開的車子，在當場移置保管後就會有吊扣，而吊扣也會有期限的不同。如果汽車駕駛人開的這一部車不是本人的，對汽車所有人該做的處罰我們會一併罰。"],["李委員坤城：跟行為人同樣嗎？車主跟行為人一樣？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟行為人同樣，當然就是一套的，也就是說行為人跟車主是不同一個人時，相關的處罰其實是一樣的。"],["李委員坤城：這是無照駕駛的部分，高齡駕駛的部分呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：高齡駕駛的部分，部長有特別提到，原則上在未來3個月內會提出相關的配套措施，相關方向不外乎就是提升高齡駕駛的安全，以這樣的觀點去研擬後續的規劃，這裡面會希望提高高齡駕駛人的危險感知或相關安全的知識、對法規的瞭解，所以會有相關的講習。另外，我們會跟醫生、醫學會或是專家學者組成交通部駕駛人醫療諮詢委員會，我們會對於相關的認知功能如何更精進去做討論。第三個部分就是大家經常提到的，如果是高風險的駕駛人，我們如何認定、如何判定、然後如何來換照、如何來限制他駕車等等的配套？當然還有特別提到是不是要安裝其他的設備？我想這個我們都一併在考量。"],["李委員坤城：換照年齡就是確定從75歲下修到70歲？"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上大家對於年齡的問題都持續在關注，這部分我們會聽聽看大家的意見來做處理，原則上是以高風險的駕駛人來做處理。"],["李委員坤城：因此關於無照跟高齡駕駛兩部分都是6月份會送出來？"],["陳次長彥伯：6月份是有關無照駕駛處罰條例的修正條文，高齡的部分大概8月底前會提出來。"],["李委員坤城：最後一個問題，現在有關微型電動二輪車的駕照制度，請問你們現在對於微型電動二輪車有在做管理嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：微型電動二輪車不管是從登記、領牌或者是保險，大概都有一系列的管理規定。剛才我也特別說明，就是有關駕照，現行的汽、機車管理上是有缺這個，這部分我們後續會去跟教育部或相關單位或地方政府研究，如何來對騎乘微型電動二輪車的駕駛朋友做一些相關的講習或訓練。"],["李委員坤城：現在是年滿14歲的國中學生免訓練、無駕照就可以騎微型電動二輪車？"],["陳次長彥伯：因為現行把微型電動二輪車定位為慢車，慢車就是跟腳踏車一樣，所以沒有駕照。"],["李委員坤城：這部分你們要怎麼去做修正？"],["陳次長彥伯：駕照這部分，我們會去跟相關單位討論，看如何讓訓練落實，譬如說學生跟學校或跟教育單位，或是賣車的人對賣出去的車子，如何讓車輛所有人能夠有一些相關的訓練"],["李委員坤城：所以原則上還是可以騎，只是多了教育訓練嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是、是。"],["李委員坤城：這樣子也是蠻奇怪的！"],["陳次長彥伯：因為它是慢車。"],["李委員坤城：我會後再跟你們討論一下因為這個還衍生出蠻多問題的，好不好？因為時間有限，謝謝主席，謝謝次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9445805d6e6948543b4fab53e924c0ec1280ca7c7326cebf40ee1a9492a26f8aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"13:22:55 - 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謝謝主席 我請你部長陳部長市部長好 我想接下來7月9號就是對等關稅90天要到期了那現在應該是緊鑼密鼓在談判我想問問部長我上次在這邊問的是說你知不知道我們現在談判的進度然後有沒有什麼掌握"},{"start":32.174,"end":57.372,"text":"我只能說我們有參與談判的時候的討論那談判現在正在進行中有什麼新的狀況或新的發展會不會像之前談判的過程中我想我不適合對外說明同意但是我要問的是你們都做好衝擊的準備了嗎我想以農業部的立場我們在談判的規劃跟跟討論的協調過程中我們一直堅持的"},{"start":59.176,"end":78.026,"text":"針對跟糧食安全有關的這些品項不能放水我們就一定要去捍衛它原來我們所堅持的東西不能放水尤其是食安尤其是對農民的衝擊要交換東西我們都知道但是安全是不可以放水的現在你們編列了180億主要是協助外銷對嗎特別條例"},{"start":82.268,"end":96.848,"text":"所以對內假設假如美國對我們要求跟英國一樣有一些美牛啊乙醇啊其他農產品的市場要大肆的開放或降低關稅那國內的市場你們有編預算的嗎"},{"start":97.549,"end":118.745,"text":"我們下車180億是完全協助外銷是嗎不是 我們180億是當初在32%又降到10%的時候那有一部分是我們希望說它能夠持續的進銷外銷嘛但是有一部分可能訂單被中止它可能轉到內銷來所以有可能 我覺得說180億我還是問你一句你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":122.288,"end":148.915,"text":"台灣民眾黨版本是要給你300億我知道但是以現在談判的不確定性來講我們也不期待亂成這樣還是希望啦就是說農業的部分是這次關稅裡面最重要的一環是我覺得農業部要堅守原來的原則第二個盡量台灣農民已經很辛苦了不應該再受到拿我們的農業市場去交換國家的其他的東西要換也要換個好價錢是"},{"start":151.676,"end":168.341,"text":"今天要講的是農保法農保法的部分2020年訂定以後目前為止有兩好像是雙軌嘛第一個是保險公司做一部分商業保險另外一塊是農漁會的保險農業保險部長你滿意嗎在109年覆蓋率是9.56%現在到104年3月大概是53.83%其實成長的算不錯你覺得現有的覆蓋率你滿意嗎"},{"start":181.622,"end":208.736,"text":"我覺得要看覆蓋率要分兩個階段政策型的要拉出來另外看53.7或者是八幾它本身是有涵蓋政策性的保險如果拉掉了以後是20.720.7其實以我們推五年我覺得整體來看20.7是可以達到階段性的目標但是20.7裡面你如果看細項其中餘產的只有2.7"},{"start":210.897,"end":236.779,"text":"對啊 這個我才問說你滿意哪一塊哪一塊不滿意這個部分我就覺得說有必須有很大的必須要去精進的然後我們看了農業的這些保單裡面我也發現說有一些保單其實保的人數並不多那這個部分我們也把它撈出來看說要怎麼樣精進所以我的目標是我希望提升保單的品質而不是衝保單的量"},{"start":237.199,"end":266.559,"text":"沒錯 重點是要好的保單也就是說我們雖然看起來有很多的商業保險他們有保一些但是真正跟農民有保障的應該還是我們政府所農運會所保的這些所謂收入型偵測性的強制險高粱水稻的基本收入險豬隻乳牛的死亡險但是商業保險針對天災或其他事故的保險顯然沒有辦法讓農民非常安心的去"},{"start":267.299,"end":289.557,"text":"付這個保險費 因為可能不一定會被理賠得到現在問題是如果照這樣的狀況 我們去保了一個險就賠不到 那我就不買啦現在問題是這裡吧所以設計出一個好的保險才是我覺得農業部或接下去不管是農漁會 因為農漁會要他們設計商品 我覺得有困難啦所以 部長 這部分怎麼解決"},{"start":290.177,"end":298.963,"text":"我想我們後續會針對這些商業型的保單現在禮賠率大概47%那正常的禮賠率應該是大概百分之八十左右所以當他禮賠率表示他投保之後他的"},{"start":307.248,"end":334.074,"text":"不理賠的機率很高所以我就不買啦所以我才會說一的會降低保費是或者是在裡面的這些品項裡面我覺得還是回到一個啦就是這個保單它的風險係數保險公司的經濟價它的說難聽點它的獲利可能性那第三個就是它為什麼會賣出這樣的東西因為賺不到錢我就不賣啊我乾脆弄個很高的門檻讓你買不到啊那更嚴重的就是欸"},{"start":335.695,"end":360.232,"text":"買到了但是賠不了一大堆另外條款一大堆所以重點還是那個風險的管控你看像看到國外的狀況大部分其實很多是由國家或是相關的農業協會他們去針對風險做好評估而且有國家的相關的數據讓保險公司可以設計出一個比較符合現實的保險所以我們現在是有農業金庫嘛"},{"start":362.373,"end":383.815,"text":"我們農業金庫只做銀行業務嘛 要不要做點農業保險業務還有農業保險基金來處理是啊 所以好的保險才是要設計的可能不能只是單靠商業保險 部長同意嗎我同意 而且我覺得不管什麼樣的保險我覺得資料庫的這些風險的資料庫的累積才是重點"},{"start":384.355,"end":400.009,"text":"因為這樣才能算出比較合時的狀況第二個我們政府有花這麼多的錢在補助那如果農業保險設計的好保費補的再高一點我們都不會反對重點是他要賠得到賠不到就是等於白買"},{"start":401.247,"end":421.256,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個部分可能是政府要扛起這個責任不是只是給錢了事我給錢讓你去買保險結果你買了保險還是賠不到要等於白搭我了解所以我已經要求我們的同仁從去年開始我們就每一個保單重新去評估它的沒錯"},{"start":422.176,"end":447.989,"text":"全面的重新檢視所以我說在今年年底之前我會全部盤出來如果沒人買的保單就是廢話啦就不用了啦好的保險讓他能夠有獲利然後農民保得到賠得了這個好的保險我們補再多保費我們大家都會支持這個是我的政策我不會衝他的保單的數量我會針對每一個保單是更多人來保保障農民保了錢得到賠"},{"start":449.15,"end":455.153,"text":"第二個不會血本無歸我們這才是保險的意義所以馬來西亞對保險就不賠不賠40幾%而已這樣有點怪最後一個小問題就是我們現在農業保險我們大家都看到了就是"},{"start":465.737,"end":486.839,"text":"目前為止他在金融消費爭議目前把上次在農業保險修法的時候已經把他放在金保法的調處的機制但是農業保險還不能進入所謂的金融貧困中心保護所以這個部分是不是要討論一下一個國家為什麼這麼多制度呢我們是不是找一下金管會上台"},{"start":491.155,"end":508.944,"text":"比方說農業保險目前是可以依金融消費者保護法進行調處但是還不到評議中心的評議然後農業信用部發生的金融消費糾紛也不屬於金融評議中心的評議這到底是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":510.984,"end":525.158,"text":"是謝謝有人提問 有關這個部分因為有涉及到這個 目的是主管機關還是農業部這邊 那所以是農業部要去跟你們今晚會說我要加入金融評議中心是這樣嗎"},{"start":527.11,"end":548.361,"text":"因為這個 好 那我們就請部長吧 你是主管機關我的意思就是說 我跟委員說明就是如果有需要的話 我們會委託那個金融作為消費平益的部分去做調處 我就剛剛講農民拿不到保障 拿不到理賠 他要去找誰結果他要自己去告他 這很扯啊 不過我們去"},{"start":549.762,"end":570.007,"text":"第二個我剛剛講的現在金管會連融資租賃公司都要納入金保法結果我們這真正在做金融消費的比如說農農漁會的信用部比如說農業保險不屬於金融消費者保護這很奇怪啊我給你一個月的時間你們去跟金管會協調如果可以的話農業部應該要把這兩個項目第一個農業保險跟"},{"start":575.51,"end":593.688,"text":"農業農漁會的信用部他們發生的金融消費爭議要納入金融消費者評議中心去做處理好我們來溝通看看怎麼樣是否則你們就是話外之明而且農民在裡面反而變成相對弱勢這不公平是好謝謝部長一個月好謝謝好謝謝我們現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1322,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（13時23分）謝謝主席！我請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好！到7月9號，對等關稅暫緩90天就要到期了，現在應該是緊鑼密鼓在談判，我想問問部長，我上次在這邊問的是你知不知道我們現在談判的進度？然後有沒有什麼掌握？"],["陳部長駿季：我只能說我們有參與談判的所有討論，談判現在正在進行中。"],["黃委員珊珊：有沒有什麼新的狀況或新的發展？"],["陳部長駿季：在談判的過程中我想我不適合對外說明，因為現在正在談判。"],["黃委員珊珊：同意，但是我要問的是你們都做好衝擊的準備了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想以農業部的立場，在談判的規劃跟討論的協調過程中，我們一直堅持的是針對跟糧食安全有關的這些品項就一定要去捍衛。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能放水，原來我們所堅持的東西不能放水！尤其是食安，尤其是對農民的衝擊，要交換東西這點我們都知道，但是安全是不可以放水的。特別條例中你們現在編列的180億元主要是協助外銷，所以對內，我是假設啦，假如美國對我們要求跟英國一樣，有一些美牛、乙醇或其他農產品市場要大肆開放或降低關稅，對於國內市場受到的衝擊你們有編預算了嗎？你們上次編列的180億元是完全協助外銷的，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們這180億元是當初在32%又降到10%的時候，有一部分是我們希望能夠持續的銷到美國，但是有一部分被中止的訂單可能轉到內銷來，內銷的話就會衝擊到……"],["黃委員珊珊：有可能，所以我還是要問你一句，你覺得180億元夠嗎？台灣民眾黨的版本是要給你300億元。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，但是以現在談判的不確定性來講，我們也不期待說亂講價啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：還是希望啦！農業的部分是這次關稅裡面最重要的一環，我覺得農業部要堅守原來的原則。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我們的立場一定不變。"],["黃委員珊珊：儘量啦！第二個是臺灣農民已經很辛苦了，不應該再拿我們的農業市場去交換國家的其他東西，要換也要換個好價錢。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：今天要討論的是農保法，農保法在2020年訂定以後，目前為止好像是雙軌，一個是保險公司做一部分商業保險，另外一塊是農漁會的保險，對吧？對於農業保險，部長你滿意嗎？109年的覆蓋率是9.56%，到114年3月，大概是53.83%，其實成長得算不錯，你對於現有的覆蓋率滿意嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得看覆蓋率要分兩個階段，政策型的要拉出來另外看，53.7%有涵蓋政策性的保險，拿掉了以後是20.7%，其實以我們推行了5年來說，我覺得整體來看，20.7%可以說是達到階段性的目標，但是如果看細項，其中漁產的部分只有2.7%……"],["黃委員珊珊：對啊！所以我才問你滿意哪一塊？哪一塊不滿意？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這個部分還可以有很大的精進空間，然後在農業的這些保單裡面，我也發現有些保單的投保人數其實並不多。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，你們有找出原因嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們把這個部分也撈出來看要怎麼樣精進，所以我的目標是希望提升保單的品質而不是衝保單的量，這部分我們會努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以重點是要有好的保單，也就是說我們雖然看起來有很多的商業保險，有一些保障，但是真正對農民有保障的應該還是我們政府農漁會保的這些所謂收入型政策性的強制險，比如高粱、水稻的基本收入險及豬隻、乳牛的死亡險等，但是商業保險中針對天災或其他事故的保險，顯然沒有辦法讓農民非常安心的去付這個保險費，因為可能不一定會被理賠到，如果照這樣的狀況，我們去投保了一個險又理賠不到，那我就不買啦！現在的問題是在這裡吧？所以我覺得設計出一個好的保險才是農業部該思考的，因為要農漁會設計商品，我覺得有困難。所以請問部長，這部分怎麼解決？"],["陳部長駿季：這些商業型保單現在的理賠率大概是47%，正常的理賠率應該是80%左右，當理賠率低的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以很多人因為買了之後不理賠的機率很高就不買了。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我才會說either會降低保費或是在這些品項裡面我們去做調整。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得還是回到這個保單的風險係數和保險公司的經濟價值，說得難聽一點，就是它的獲利可能性，第三個就是之所以會賣出這樣的東西是因為賺不到錢，那就不賣啊！乾脆弄個很高的門檻讓你買不到，更嚴重的就是買到了但是賠不了，附加一大堆另外條款，所以重點還是那個風險的管控。我們看到國外的狀況，其實大部分是由國家或是相關的農業協會去針對風險做好評估，而且有國家的相關數據讓保險公司可以設計出一個比較符合現實的保險。我們現在是有農業金庫，但我們的農業金庫只做銀行業務，要不要做點農業保險業務？"],["陳部長駿季：農業保險是由農業保險基金來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！所以才要設計好的保險，不能只是單靠商業保險。部長同意嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我同意，而且我覺得不管什麼樣的保險，這些風險資料庫的累積才是重點。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，因為這樣才能算出比較合適的狀況。而且我們政府花了這麼多錢在補助上，如果農業保險設計得好，保費補助再高一點我們都不會反對，重點是要賠得到，若是賠不到就等於白買，所以部長，我覺得這個部分可能是政府要扛起責任，不是只給錢了事，我給錢讓你去買保險，結果你買了保險還是賠不到，那等於白搭。"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解，所以我已經要求我們的同仁從去年開始就重新評估每一個保單，在今年年底之前會全部盤點出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，全面重新檢視，沒人買的保單就是廢物，就不用了啦！好的保險是讓它能夠有獲利，然後農民保得到也賠得了，這樣的好的保險，補助再多保費大家都會支持。"],["陳部長駿季：這個是我的政策，我不會去衝保單的數量，會針對每一個保單希望有更多人來投保……"],["黃委員珊珊：要保障農民保了險能得到理賠，其次是不會血本無歸，這才是我們保險的意義。否則買了一大堆保險結果卻不賠，理賠率只有百分之四十幾而已，這樣有點怪。好嗎？","最後一個小問題就是上次在農業保險修法的時候，已經把農業保險的金融消費爭議納入金保法的調處機制，但是還不能受到所謂的金融評議中心的保護，所以這個部分是不是要討論一下？一個國家為什麼有這麼多制度呢？是不是請金管會上台說明一下？就是農業保險目前可以依金融消費者保護法進行調處，但是還不能到評議中心去評議，然後農業信用部發生的金融消費糾紛也不屬於金融評議中心的評議範疇，這到底是怎麼回事？"],["王專門委員綺華：謝謝委員提問，有關這個部分，因為涉及到目的事業主管機關，還是農業部這邊。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以是農業部要去跟你們金管會說「我要加入金融評議中心」，是這樣嗎？"],["王專門委員綺華：因為這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：那我們就請部長答復，你是主管機關。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，如果有需要的話，我們會委託金融消費評議的部分去做調處。"],["黃委員珊珊：我剛剛就講了，農民拿不到保障，拿不到理賠，他要去找誰？結果他要自己去提告，這很扯啊！"],["陳部長駿季：可以透過我們去協助。"],["黃委員珊珊：再者，現在金管會連融資租賃公司都要納入金保法，結果我們真正在做金融消費的，比如說農漁會的信用部，比如說農業保險，卻不屬於金融消費者保護範疇，這很奇怪。我給你一個月的時間，你們去跟金管會協調，如果可以的話，農業部應該要把這兩個項目即農業保險跟農漁會信用部發生的金融消費爭議納入金融消費者評議中心去做處理。"],["陳部長駿季：我們來溝通看看怎麼樣處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：否則你們就是化外之民，而且農民在這裡面反而變成相對弱勢，這不公平。謝謝部長，給你們一個月時間。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請羅明才委員做詢答，羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","現在請羅廷瑋委員做詢答，羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員呂玉玲、林思銘、羅明才、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","郭國文","陳亭妃","李坤城","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","陳超明","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","李彥秀","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","呂玉玲","林思銘","羅明才","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員邱\n若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145901_00002"}}},{"id":"162469","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162469","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9a174b037e49e6c3db4fab53e924c0ec1280ca7c7326cebf41b9d0562b452a15f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"13:10:23 - 13:22:43","影片長度":"00:12:20","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T13:10:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T13:22:43+08:00","duration":740,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.392218750000001,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.871593750000002,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":22.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.26784375,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.95909375,"end":112.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.22409375000001,"end":114.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.18596875,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.10534375,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.09659375000001,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.26471875000001,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.14221875000001,"end":126.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.76221875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.24909375000001,"end":146.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.21909375,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.40034375000002,"end":154.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.63534375,"end":160.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.30534375000002,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.94659375,"end":164.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.51159375,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.08096875,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.76909375000002,"end":274.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.49409375000002,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.02534375000002,"end":198.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.11471875,"end":275.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.75596875,"end":275.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.47721875,"end":281.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.13034375,"end":286.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.07471875000005,"end":290.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.41596875,"end":315.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.76659375,"end":347.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.06346875,"end":332.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.97659375,"end":355.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.41409375,"end":396.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.55596875000003,"end":399.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.36096875000004,"end":402.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.74909375000004,"end":401.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.85846875000004,"end":412.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.87784375,"end":421.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.11284375,"end":440.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.14971875000003,"end":431.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.05096875000004,"end":456.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.60096875000005,"end":486.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.03159375,"end":488.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.24596875000003,"end":499.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.34534375000004,"end":506.66909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.20534375000005,"end":514.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.15846875000005,"end":508.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.4778437499999,"end":517.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.75596875,"end":523.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.1897187500001,"end":536.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.0947187500001,"end":602.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.9040937500001,"end":598.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.59971875,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.0503437500001,"end":606.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.5859687500001,"end":607.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.34096875,"end":610.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.2434687500001,"end":613.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.52159375,"end":630.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.6328437500001,"end":641.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.9053437499999,"end":643.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.89659375,"end":739.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.6709687500002,"end":737.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.7634687500001,"end":740.80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請教一下我們5月份農業部是不是移工新制度上路名額從1萬2千名新增到2萬名 同時開放新的農量列型"},{"start":41.118,"end":48.163,"text":"也在就是供請數和合配率的放寬就由此事也是說軟解我們的農我們農業的缺工的問題啦但是問題在說要符合這個資格農民我們農業的團體需要先就是農量署各分署申請拿到資格認定函後呢才能在90天內向勞動部申請"},{"start":71.298,"end":74.08,"text":"就是聘用移工可是許多農產業別其實在有季節性的需求所以有一點差異這一來一往的話耗費很多的時間無法就是彌補的這樣子的需求的缺口上次部長質詢的時候說就是我們農業部審核的速度會盡量縮短"},{"start":95.277,"end":111.966,"text":"請教一下我們的部長目前就是新智商入後我們審核的案件有多少件還有說目前農業部內部的審核平均天數大約為多少因為我們現在這個我們都沒有看到一個規定"},{"start":115.227,"end":138.338,"text":"我跟委員報告第一件事情就是說我們也發現到就是說當我的移工的數量名額增加了然後申請人變多了那申請這邊會不會有塞車的部分那我們也了解就是說審查過程包括農業部的審查還包括勞動部的審查這兩個部分那這兩個部分其實我已經跟勞動部做了一個溝通協調"},{"start":139.318,"end":154.492,"text":"他們那邊是應該理論上是7加7天再加一個行政核定大概一個月左右那我們這邊有很多必須要實地查核的那我也要求我們農糧署或是相關的主管單位要盡速而不是"},{"start":155.903,"end":172.001,"text":"單子擠在一堆再去爬啦所以可以用個案的方式來就安排時間去查然後還有一個更重要的部分是很多申請者資料不齊全然後還要補件的這個東西過往都是用我們都用被動的"},{"start":172.642,"end":189.697,"text":"我希望說其實應該讓有意願申請的人他就一開始就知道他要提供什麼樣子的資料以避免說你為了補卷有沒有來來回回來來回造成太多次的這些往返這個部分都是我們在改進的一個空間"},{"start":190.876,"end":199.187,"text":"是所以呢我們就是因為我們農民有季節性的就是特殊的需求但是我們人力在這樣子的來來往往就會變成浪費很多時間但是剛才我們部長也有說我們要先"},{"start":207.799,"end":210.141,"text":"有意願的輔導 我們是有這樣的輔導的人員或者團隊嗎大家農民辛苦 辛苦人家看得到吃不到 到最後呢就是也沒辦法達成他們的需求 就是農民需要的時候就沒辦法採收"},{"start":226.235,"end":228.197,"text":"所以我剛才你有說我們也有提到部長在5月19的時候呢有跟說勞動部跨部會的討論但是呢我們現在還是沒有看到這樣討論的結果就是時間"},{"start":244.051,"end":252.194,"text":"網路也沒有看到資料也沒有看到所以呢我們希望說要有明確的時間更盡盡就是縮短這樣子的話才能有這樣子的進度還有掌握就是多少審查要涉及的修法是否就是明確的解決時間的問題的辦法這樣的話對我們農民真有幫助啦"},{"start":267.018,"end":289.806,"text":"這個部分希望是真正的明確的就剛才你說有跟他們真的協調但是我們今天沒看到不是我要跟委員報告我們當時間拉長的時候我們必須先釐清哪一個環節是塞車的我們從那個環節去解開那後來我們發現我們跟勞動部溝通了以後我們有跟他們有一些內部的會議我們發現說"},{"start":291.887,"end":308.72,"text":"勞動部那邊他也會承諾就是他們盡快在一個月之內審完我們這邊也目標也是一個月之內審完那現在可能要三個月所以要壓縮的時候看哪個環節是可以解開的我們是用這樣的方式而不是說我有一個新的會議決議說我要幾天因為那個決議說要幾天都沒有用實際上要怎麼樣去縮短"},{"start":314.784,"end":320.909,"text":"所以我們就是說縮短的方法我們希望真的是有在就是說剛才你說嘛解決源頭就是要去輔導所以想要的去輔導我也希望說你說輔導誰來輔導因為這個是新的政策宣傳不夠還有說在我們的就是根據我們主計處做普查的時候110年的時候我們的國民我們農民"},{"start":342.225,"end":346.206,"text":"年齡已經高達六十七 八十四歲了那你今天 你用講的 我們聽到啦但是說沒聽到的人就不會了啦但是說 有聽到的 我們年紀 我們的長輩他要去網路要看也看不到啦 這樣就變成"},{"start":362.751,"end":364.852,"text":"達到這樣子的我們的農業的需求還有說我們的農民就是漁民他們的經營管理者也是年齡也達到就是64歲以上了顯然就是說我們的勞動力已經不足了但是我們要引進這個移工根據我們的監察院報告指出我們農委會"},{"start":388.106,"end":407.952,"text":"整體的政策就是說就是邊做邊修沒有完全的全盤的普善的統計您這邊的資料是在112年的資料嘛對所以我們看到因為我們現在網路沒有看到所以114年本身其實我們針對各類的移工的人數從8000人、12000人到20000人我們已經想辦法去調整然後"},{"start":413.193,"end":437.879,"text":"歷次的委員特別是經濟委員會的委員都一直希望有特定的這些品項可以打開我們也陸續的檢討也做了一些開放這個開放絕對不是說開了一次就不調整了我們是滾動的檢討所以您剛才說這是一個新的制度對新的制度但是我們沒有看到你改變的地方它不是新的制度它是一個現有的制度不斷的去改進不斷的去精進的方式"},{"start":438.499,"end":441.922,"text":"來部長你說新進的部分我們是說這個不好意思就是我們的監察院你說好你說1110年但是我們現在112年6月份你開放的是額度就是1萬2就是"},{"start":456.673,"end":462.336,"text":"對 1.2萬人 但是現在在在我們13年 原額就說用完了所以我們的監法院也覺得說你用完我們是增加 但是你都沒有全盤的統計啦到目前為止我們也沒有看到如果你說110年你已經這個是舊的資料新的資料我們也沒有看到啊所以我們才在問你嘛如果我們看到我們就不會問所以我們希望"},{"start":485.069,"end":489.09,"text":"你不能說我覺得增加我就覺得需要我就增加但是你沒有全盤的統計真的是寬寬不然你今天兩三個月你就放寬等一下說又補了不足了兩三個月你又要再放寬這樣子都沒辦法一定會這樣子農業的一些樣態他不斷的會去調整"},{"start":512.217,"end":535.153,"text":"所以說我不是說這一次的調整我就不動了員工2萬人也不一定會夠所以我們到了1萬7、1萬8的時候我們就會再來申請然後我們也會隨時讓各個地方的農民有一個管道知道說哪一些是值得再開放移工的部分那我們都會納入檢討如果需要的話我們就會再增加所以它是一個滾動的精進"},{"start":537.21,"end":541.534,"text":"私人你說是滾動為什麼我們監察院這邊就是說很多就是沒有達成到你們真正的去全盤調查所以才會去說希望你們真的是全盤調查如果是需要的時候我們再開放多一點還是怎麼樣但是你沒有的話變成是說你感覺就是需要等一下又再開放"},{"start":561.149,"end":565.85,"text":"所以沒有達到說很多人在等待的時候 在申請的時候就等待不到 又申請不到又在等你再開放 這樣的話就是差一截了我們希望說你真正的去調查 有資料 有需求我們就是開放多一點 或者怎麼樣就這樣達到我們農民的需求因為農民是跟我們在反映"},{"start":585.796,"end":607.658,"text":"你開放就是你覺得他們可能有申請的 你覺得有需要但是還沒有即將申請的人 他們不知道幫大家申請的時候 你就罵這申請的人就沒有啊所以我們希望是你真正的去調查 全盤的去檢查現在產業很多的反應就是他希望移工 但是他用了以後他又不管理他的居住"},{"start":608.379,"end":636.736,"text":"太多人是這樣子的因為農業本身的這些季節性的部分會有造成一些問題但是我們請了一個移工以後我們必須要負責他的管理那這個部分是現在農民沒辦法比較沒辦法認同他覺得說我要的時候你就叫過來給我所以我們要請農會用一個外展的方式由農會來請然後各個農會轄區裡面的這些需要的用調度的方式來處理那這個就是我們"},{"start":637.717,"end":648.924,"text":"配合農業的特色我們去處理這些季節性的缺工好 說說關鍵因為時間我還是主席在最後一個因為本來不想講這題但是因為農業部長就講到我順便就講了雖然所以在關於外長的部分"},{"start":656.949,"end":672.729,"text":"在11年年底移工失联率就达到11.86所以呢你外长刚才你说的外长希望他们帮忙管理移工但是关外长的逃跑率失联移工"},{"start":673.169,"end":674.911,"text":"那麼多所以呢你的外長的管理還有制度還有所有的這些的話你講出問題但是你沒有解決問題所以我們希望今天的質詢的問題的話就是從農業缺工引進移工的制度不完善"},{"start":689.548,"end":694.371,"text":"還有就是非法移工雇用還有每個這些都是環環相扣但是目前我們農業部的制度無法及時補位這樣子的就是變成就是良善的政策但是就反而就是紙上談兵所以你自己都把問題提出來了但是你要解決不能說就是頭痛醫頭就是腳痛醫腳這樣的政策沒有達到"},{"start":720.048,"end":726.971,"text":"這樣子的效果所以我們開放但是倒是最後失聯又最高所以我希望這些種種的問題希望你有個書面給我因為時間的關係書面給我完整一點讓我們才對農民就幫你協助來怎麼樣去達到這樣子的目標謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1296,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（13時10分）有請農業部的陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。請教一下，5月份農業部的移工新制度上路，名額從1萬2,000名新增到2萬名，同時開放新的農糧類型，也對公頃數和核配率放寬，藉由此事緩解我們農業缺工的問題，但是問題在於要符合資格，農民及農業團體需要先向農糧署各分署申請，拿到資格認定函後，才能在90天內向勞動部申請聘用移工。可是許多農產類別其實有季節性的需求，所以有一點差異，這一來一往耗費很多時間，無法彌補需求的缺口。上次部長質詢的時候說農業部審核的速度會儘量縮短，請教部長，目前新制度上路後，審核的案件有多少件？目前農業部內部的審核平均天數大約為多少？因為現在都沒有看到規定。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一件事情是我們也發現到當移工的名額增加了，申請人變多了，申請會不會發生塞車的問題？事實上審查過程包括農業部的審查及勞動部的審查這兩個部分，這兩個部分其實我已經跟勞動部做了溝通協調，他們那邊理論上應該是7加7天，再加上行政核定，大概1個月左右，至於我們這邊有很多必須要實地查核的，我也要求我們農糧署或是相關的主管單位要儘速，而不是單子擠在一堆再去查，可以用個案的方式安排時間去查。還有一個更重要的部分，很多申請者資料不齊全，還要補件，這個事情過往我們是被動的，我希望應該讓有意願申請的人在一開始就知道要提供什麼樣的資料，以避免為了補件來來回回造成太多次的往返，這個部分都是我們改進的空間。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，因為農業有季節性的特性，但是我們人力這樣的來來往往就會浪費很多時間，剛才部長說要先針對有意願的來輔導，是有這樣的輔導人員或團隊嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["麥委員玉珍：否則讓農民這些辛苦人看得到、吃不到，到最後也沒辦法達成他們的需求，當農民需要的時候就沒辦法採收。","剛才我們也有提到，部長在5月19日有跟勞動部做跨部會的討論，但是我們現在還是沒有看到討論的結果，就是時間是你講的，但是我們沒看到啊，網路也沒有看到，資料也沒有看到，所以我們希望要有明確的時間，更精進就是縮短時間，這樣才能有進度，還有掌握多少審查會涉及修法？是否有解決時間問題的明確辦法？這樣對我們農民才會有幫助，這個部分要真正明確。部長剛才說真的有跟他們做協調，但是我們還是沒看到。"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，當時間拉長的時候，我們必須先釐清哪一個環節是塞車的，我們從那個環節去解開，後來我們發現我們跟勞動部溝通了以後，我們跟他們有一些內部的會議，我們發現勞動部那邊也會承諾，就是他們儘快在一個月之內審完，我們這邊的目標也是一個月之內審完，現在可能要三個月，所以要壓縮的時候，看哪個環節是可以解開的，我們是用這樣的方式，而不是我們召開一個新的會議決議說要幾天，因為那個決議說要幾天都沒有用，實際上要怎麼樣去縮短……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以我們就是希望有縮短的方法，剛才你說解決的源頭就是要去輔導，所以對想要的農民加以輔導，但是由誰來輔導？因為這個是新的政策且宣傳不夠。另外，根據我們主計處的普查，110年的時候，我們農民的年齡已經高達67.84歲了，你現在說的，我們有聽到，但是沒聽到的人也不會聽到。再者，有聽到的長輩想要上網去看也看不懂，這樣要如何達到我們農業的需求？再者，這些農林漁牧業的經營管理者，他們的年齡也達到64歲以上了，顯然我們的勞動力已經不足了，所以我們要引進移工。根據監察院報告指出，我們農業部整體的政策就是邊做邊修，手上沒有全盤妥善的統計。"],["陳部長駿季：委員的資料是112年的資料。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，因為現在網路沒有看到啊！"],["陳部長駿季：在114年，其實我們針對各類的移工人數，從8,000人、1萬2,000人到2萬人，我們已經想辦法去調整，然後歷次的委員，特別是經濟委員會的委員都一直希望有特定的品項可以打開，我們也陸續的檢討，也做了一些開放，這個開放絕對不是說開了一次就不調整了，我們是滾動的檢討。所以您剛才說這是一個新的制度，事實上它是一個舊的，它不是新的制度、它不是新的制度，它是以一個現有的制度不斷去改進，不斷去精進的方式，包括審查的時間……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，部長說要精進，你說110年是舊的資料，那我們112年6月份所開放的是額度是1.2萬人，但是在113年員額就用完了，監察院也覺得用完員額是會增加，但是你都沒有全盤的統計，到目前為止我們也沒有看到，如果你說110年是舊的資料，但是新的資料我們也沒有看到啊！所以我才在問你，如果我們看到就不會問了，所以我們希望……"],["陳部長駿季：我們非常希望瞭解委員要什麼樣的資料，我們可以提供。"],["麥委員玉珍：不能說你覺得現在需要增加就增加，但是你沒有全盤的統計，雖然真的是放寬，兩、三個月你就放寬，但是增加之後不久又員額不足了，然後過兩、三個月你又要再放寬，這樣子都沒辦法。"],["陳部長駿季：一定會這樣子，因為農業的一些樣態會不斷的調整，所以我不是做這一次調整就不動了，員工2萬人也不一定會夠，所以到了1萬7,000、1萬8,000的時候，我們就會再來申請，然後我們也會隨時讓各個地方的農民有一個管道，知道哪一些是值得再開放移工的部分，我們都會納入檢討，如果需要的話，我們就會再增加，所以這是滾動式的精進。"],["麥委員玉珍：雖然你說是滾動，但為什麼監察院報告是說你們並沒有真正的去做全盤調查，所以才會希望你們真的要全盤調查，如果需要的時候，我們再開放多一點或是怎麼樣。但是你沒有這樣做的話，變成是你感覺需要，等一下你又再開放，所以導致很多人在申請的時候就等待不到、申請不到，又得等你再開放，這樣的話就是差一截了。我們希望的是你真正的去調查，有資料、有需求就多開放一點或者看怎麼樣來達到我們農民的需求，因為農民跟我們反映，現在是他們有提出申請而你覺得有需要就開放，但是還沒有提出或即將提出申請的人他們不知道，等他要申請的時候，哇！就沒了！再申請的人就沒了。所以我們希望你真正的去調查，全盤的去檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在產業很多人反映他們希望有移工，但是他們用了以後又不管理移工的居住，太多人有這樣的情況，因為農業本身的季節性會造成一些問題，但是基本上請了一個移工以後，我們必須要負責他的管理，這個部分是現在農民比較沒辦法認同的，他們的想法是我要用的時候你就叫過來給我，所以我們要請農會用外展的方式，就是由農會來聘僱，讓各個農會就轄區裡面所需以調度的方式來處理，就是我們配合農業的特色去處理這些季節性的缺工。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為時間的關係，本席再提出最後一個問題，本來不想講這一題，但是因為農業部長講到了，我就順便提出來。關於外展的部分，在111年年底，農業移工失聯率就達到11.86%，你剛才說希望以外展方式讓他們幫忙管理移工，但是外展移工的逃跑率、失聯移工那麼多，所以你提到外展的管理還有制度及其他等等，這些話只是講出問題，但是並沒有解決問題，所以我們希望藉由今天質詢提到的問題──從農業缺工、引進移工制度不完善還有非法移工的僱用，這些問題環環相扣，但是目前我們農業部的制度無法及時補位，導致良善的政策反而變成紙上談兵，現在你自己都把問題提出來了，但是解決問題不能頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，這樣的政策無法達到解決問題的效果，變成我們開放了，到最後失聯率又最高。因為時間的關係，希望你能針對以上所提種種問題給我一個完整一點的書面答復，這樣我們才能協助你們達到這樣子的目標。謝謝！"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請賴士葆委員做詢答，賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","現在請何欣純委員做詢答，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","現在請黃珊珊委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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照理說應該不能持續做"},{"start":114.784,"end":125.312,"text":"這個帶電那個電付的這個電付自動電付的保險費的這個動作所以我覺得這個部分是不是應該要持續的去做釐清否則的話這跟當時我們當時那個金額就會不一樣如果持續代扣下去的話我們當時的這個法律當時就會有一點衝突你了解我的意思嗎"},{"start":139.945,"end":155.317,"text":"是 謝謝委員的這個提問有關這個部分因為是比較我們扣押的解約金的金額跟到最後其實如果不斷的帶電的話那個金額就會不一致我覺得這件事情應該要趕快競速的去釐清是 這個部分我們回去會再做一個研議跟這個問題的釐清 謝謝好 謝謝莊委那我是不是請農業部部長"},{"start":165.632,"end":165.652,"text":"陳部長"},{"start":195.893,"end":207.514,"text":"後續這個經費我們後來有做什麼樣短中長期的規劃原來的班班有先來的那個經費當我們停止以後我們就移走了我們經費就移走了"},{"start":208.53,"end":229.21,"text":"我知道移走了 但是你們當時對外的說法是我們還是要針對於弱農的那個是整個弱農產業的升級的計畫還在還在 那你們有說要做短中長期的規劃那到底規劃了什麼我們有一個完整的規劃就是我們在短期之內我們要先把寡產牛的支柱先做一個調控"},{"start":230.471,"end":240.196,"text":"讓他的生產效率變高然後去針對本身第二個所以短中長期的規劃都已經出來了這7.48億怎麼用都已經有規劃了不是這個7.48億是多少4年20.8億這是另外的經費多少對不起你再說清楚4年20.8億"},{"start":258.687,"end":265.893,"text":"20.8億是好都有規劃了要怎麼用都有規劃了對我們有四年級的計畫在那邊執行好那我再問一件事情齁當時在2024到2027我們養牛的產業全面升級我們有個中程的規劃當時我看到你們的計畫書裡面是寫說我們希望農業部希望能夠達到生乳量的減量以利維持價格這個是當時的規劃對不對是"},{"start":286.309,"end":296.353,"text":"那現在的規劃的方向還是一樣嗎還是一樣好那我請問一件事情就是說有些弱能業者他們面臨現在台紐的協議零關稅這件事情為了要提升競爭力他們加入一些AI自動化的機器提高每天的產量那"},{"start":307.657,"end":324.766,"text":"如果你剛剛跟我講的就是說洛農目前減量還是我們的政策那目前洛農他們又透過AI系統希望增加牛乳量這個是不是互相衝突這個沒有互相衝突喔第一個就是我們把寡產牛就是說它本身"},{"start":325.786,"end":349.279,"text":"牛奶的生產效率比較低的我們把它淘汰然後一方面我們針對比較年輕的牛利用AI或其他的設備的改善讓它提升它的乳奶效率但是總體來講我們現在希望是牛奶產量大概48到49萬噸我們希望降到43萬噸才能夠達到一個比較好的平衡達到一定的價格嘛那我再問部長好的價格是不是消費者"},{"start":354.548,"end":367.303,"text":"一定會買 那也不一定嘛 對不對重點是如何提高 擺在架上如何讓國人看到國產的品質或包裝或行銷或透過我農業部的輔導我們有足夠的競爭力嘛"},{"start":371.771,"end":391.682,"text":"這才是重點嘛所以無論在你剛剛講的20億還是40億短中長期的規劃裡面我希望可以透過你這些預算看到福島落農我們東西本來國產的本來就比外面的好這才是重點嘛除了維持價格之外重點是如何讓我們產品有競爭力嘛"},{"start":392.813,"end":395.114,"text":"你同不同意我的說法價格當然很重要但是如何透過我們的輔導包裝行銷或我們提供足夠的資源或設備讓它更有競爭力"},{"start":411.394,"end":428.909,"text":"了解所以我剛才說了三難端我們有一定的方法更重要就是在消費端怎麼樣讓產品做市場區隔然後另外包括鮮乳的標章還有產交履歷對啊但是部長我要跟你講我自己是家庭主婦之一我也常常在架上買"},{"start":430.526,"end":454.293,"text":"我希望看到更多具體的成效去行銷這都是國產的 國產一定比外面好因為國產的農業部做了哪些輔導環境各方面我們做了標章 什麼樣的標章所以我們一定比這些好對不起 但是我沒有看到所以我非常期待看到你這些預算當中有這些具體的成效在輔導我們這些落農好 我最後43秒 部長"},{"start":455.913,"end":475.914,"text":"我前一陣子我去考察了我們內湖的花卉市場我覺得台灣的花卉是全國全國非常重要也是台灣之光因為我們在國際上我們的花卉是有一定的競爭力那近期我知道我們近期我們都每一年都有撥一些預算在做輔導但是我們面對極端氣候"},{"start":478.737,"end":484.542,"text":"我覺得這些運送的過程當中無論從彰化無論從哪裡運送到台北的花卉市場也好或出了台灣到國際其他去參展也好我覺得相關的設備跟冷鏈的系統或面對現在極端氣候我們如何有更好的設備來去輔導他們我覺得是關鍵重要的所以我希望部長去多花更多的心思去關注這一塊"},{"start":505.899,"end":509.302,"text":"能力系統是不是要再加強 要做得更好我覺得都應該去做更專業的輔導或協助他們或編列預算去指導他們"},{"start":515.868,"end":539.063,"text":"我絕對同意特別是花卉的部分從產地不管是到北部的批發市場或到運銷的部分仍然是一個非常維持它的切花壽命或是盆花壽命的一個關鍵是無論是運送或在花卉市場都是這個部分我們在產地上面產業產地上面都有做適度的協助對我知道所以包括出了市場到國際去參展所以這個要拜託您編列相關的預算去更精進他們相關的設備跟輔導他們好不好"},{"start":545.247,"end":553.261,"text":"有包括上飛機的那個戰存箱是 都要協助輔導好不好我非常期待今年也可以看到一些相關的預算的編列謝謝好 謝謝現在請林詩明委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1248,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（13時）謝謝主席，我先請金管會的王專委。"],["主席：請王專委。"],["李委員彥秀：我先請問王專委一個小子題。保險法在前一陣子已經修法完成三讀了，但是有關保單遭扣押後的相關處置，其實現在還是有很多的爭議，當我們一般人的財產遭到扣押之後，債務人就沒有辦法去處分我們的財產，譬如我們的房子遭到扣押之後，我們就不能再去用房子抵押來借款，我想你非常清楚這個。當然保單遭到扣押之後，要保人不能再拿保單去做借款，我想這個是清楚的，但是保單遭到扣押之後，其實要保人不能再去處分保單，包括借款解約的行為，但是一般我們在投保的時候都會附註是不是可以自動墊付保險費，我們在做保險的時候，通常會填這個事實。所以在保單遭扣押時，我們會發現事實上的那個金額，因為一般我如果被扣押，我不會再持續去繳保費了，那墊付保費的性質，在我看來其實就是借款，但是如果保險公司繼續去扣那個墊繳的保費，事實上這跟當時的法律是互相違背的。有關保單的強制執行法制化之後，保險局應該儘速跟保險公司及法院釐清，我們是不是應該對扣押時存在的解約金額做釐清，照理說應該不能持續做自動墊付保險費這個動作，所以我覺得這個部分應該要持續去做釐清，否則這跟當時那個金額就會不一樣，如果持續代扣下去的話，跟當時的法律就會有一點衝突。你瞭解我的意思嗎？"],["王專門委員綺華：是，謝謝委員的提問。有關這個部分因為……"],["李委員彥秀：我們扣押的解約金金額，如果不停的代墊，最後金額就會不一致，我覺得這件事情應該要趕快做釐清。"],["王專門委員綺華：是，這個部分我們回去會再做研議，對這個問題來釐清。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝專門委員。","繼續我請農業部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，前一陣子我非常關注，我現在針對本土酪農轉型的議題跟您做討論，之前我們班班有鮮乳的政策執行4個月就停止了，當時在立院你們對外的說法，農業部會對酪農後續的產銷跟輔導持續做升級，這個經費事實上有7.48億，後續這個經費有做什麼樣的短中長期規劃嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：原來的班班有鮮奶的經費，當我們停止以後就移走了，經費就移走了。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道移走了，但是你們當時對外的說法是，我們還是要針對酪農的……"],["陳部長駿季：但是整個酪農產業的升級計畫還在。"],["李委員彥秀：還在？那你們有說要做短中長期的規劃，到底規劃了什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有一個完整的規劃，就是我們在短期之內要對國產牛的隻數先做一個調控，讓生產效率變高，然後針對本身第二個……"],["李委員彥秀：所以短中長期的規劃都已經出來了，這7.48億怎麼用都已經有規劃了？"],["陳部長駿季：不是7.48億，是4年20.8億，這是另外的經費。"],["李委員彥秀：多少？對不起，你再說清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：4年20.8億元。"],["李委員彥秀：20.8億元？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員彥秀：好，都有規劃，要怎麼用都有規劃了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們有4年期的計畫在執行。"],["李委員彥秀：那我再問一件事情，在2024年到2027年，我們養牛的產業全面升級，我們有一個中程的規劃，當時我看到你們的計畫書是寫農業部希望能夠達到生乳量的減量，以利維持價格，這個是當時的規劃對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員彥秀：現在的規劃的方向還是一樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：還是一樣。"],["李委員彥秀：好，那我請問一件事情，有些酪農業者面臨現在臺紐協議零關稅這事情，為了要提升競爭力，他們加入了一些AI自動化的機器，提高每天的產量，如果就你剛剛跟我講的，酪農減量還是我們的政策，那目前酪農又透過AI系統希望增加牛乳量，這個是不是互相衝突？"],["陳部長駿季：這個沒有互相衝突，第一個就是我們對於國產牛本身牛奶生產效率比較低的，我們加以淘汰，然後一方面我們針對比較年輕的牛，利用AI或其他設備的改善，以提升乳奶效益，但是總體來講，現在牛奶產量大概48萬噸到49萬噸，我們希望降到43萬噸，才能夠達到一個比較好的平衡。"],["李委員彥秀：達到一定的價格。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我再問部長，好的價格是不是消費者一定會買？其實也不一定嘛，對不對？重點是如何提高競爭力，擺在架上如何讓國人看到國產的品質或包裝或行銷，或透過農業部的輔導，讓我們有足夠的競爭力，這才是重點嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以無論在你剛剛講的短中長期的規劃裡面，我希望可以透過這些預算來輔導酪農，我們國產的東西本來就比外面的好，這才是重點嘛，除了維持價格之外，重點是如何讓我們的產品有競爭力。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，剛才講的除了生產端以外……"],["李委員彥秀：你同不同意我的說法？價格當然很重要，但是如何透過我們的輔導、包裝、行銷，或我們提供足夠的資源或設備讓它更有競爭力。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，所以我剛才說了，生產端我們有一定的方法，更重要就是在消費端，怎麼樣讓產品做市場區隔，另外包括鮮乳的標章，還有產銷履歷……"],["李委員彥秀：對啦，但是我要跟部長講，我自己也是家庭主婦，我也常常在架上買，我希望看到更多行銷的具體成效，這都是國產的，國產一定比外面好，因為農業部對國產做了哪些輔導，在環境各方面做了什麼樣的標章，所以我們國產一定比外面好，對不起！但是這些我沒有看到，所以我非常期待看到你這些預算當中能夠有具體的成效，來輔導我們這些酪農。","最後，前一陣子我去考察了內湖的花卉市場，我覺得臺灣的花卉是全國非常重要產業，也是臺灣之光，我們的花卉在國際上有一定的競爭力。我知道我們每一年都有撥一些預算在做輔導，但是我們面對極端氣候，這些運送的過程當中，無論從彰化或無論從哪裡運送到臺北的花卉市場也好，或出了臺灣到國際其他去參展也好，我覺得相關的設備跟冷鏈的系統，或是面對現在極端氣候，我們如何有更好的設備，在這方面去輔導他們，我覺得是關鍵、重要的，所以我希望部長花更多的心思去關注這一塊，冷鏈系統要再加強，要做得更好，我覺得都應該去做更專業的輔導，或協助他們，或編列預算去指導他們。"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對同意，特別是花卉的部分，從產地不管是到北部的批發市場，或是到運銷的部分，冷鏈是維持切花壽命或是盆花壽命非常重要的一個關鍵。"],["李委員彥秀：是，無論是運送或在花卉市場都是如此。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們在產地上面都有做適度的協助。"],["李委員彥秀：對，我知道，包括出了市場到國際去參展，這個要拜託部長編列相關的預算，去更精進他們相關的設備及輔導他們，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有，包括上飛機的暫存箱我們都有在處理。"],["李委員彥秀：是，都要協助輔導，好不好？我非常期待今年也可以看到一些相關預算的編列，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請林思銘委員做詢答，林思銘委員、林思銘委員不在。","請黃健豪委員做詢答，黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員不在。","請吳秉叡委員做詢答，吳秉叡委員、吳秉叡委員不在。","現在請麥玉珍委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們請部長陳部長部長好部長 我有看貴部的書面報告其中農業保險的覆蓋率到今年的4月底已經達到了53.72%離賠的金額已經超過60億我覺得是一個很大的進展可是"},{"start":37.513,"end":57.043,"text":"這個地方我想要請教部長我們知道超過五成的覆蓋率中它政策性引導的水稻水稻的保險它是佔相當大的比例那也就是說很多種植多元作物的農民那可能還在觀望他想要尋找一個更適合他們的好商品他們經營類型的好商品"},{"start":57.603,"end":73.224,"text":"所以我想請教部長部長你裡面有提到說持續進行開發開發保單來去符合農民的需求這個部分那除了現行的單一品項有沒有可能涉及更多樣化經營的這個農民的保險商品"},{"start":74.54,"end":102.267,"text":"我跟委員說明就是說我們現在如果扣掉政策性的保險我們的覆蓋率大概20.7那20.7裡面如果看品項的部分的話你會發現說漁產品的部分特別低才2.7而已然後有的作物是非常低所以我們現在會針對這些過往的投保有保單但是投保的件數非常低的我們拉出來重新去檢討到底那張保單為什麼不受歡迎"},{"start":103.387,"end":119.133,"text":"這個部分我想我們會檢討然後第二個部分就是新的就是我們也發現說有一些農民需要一些新的保單那這個部分我想我們也會來開發但是開發有一個前提就是他的過往的這些風險有沒有災損的資訊要夠才能夠開發所以我想我們會持續來精進謝謝部長"},{"start":124.375,"end":149.47,"text":"那部長我之所以問這個問題是因為我們有很多種植多樣化這個作物的青農跟我們反映就是說它不是種一個而已啦它是種番茄啦 鳳梨啦等等這種種的不同對 綜合的可是現在的保單他們的反應是說只能夠覆蓋到單一作物所以他是希望說可不可以開發更多元的這種保單讓這些青農有機會能夠來去納保那保障比較不足的也可以提高他們的投保的意願"},{"start":150.35,"end":165.626,"text":"那這個部分不知道部長有沒有什麼看法因為有一種保單的方式就是按照他們整個農場的總收入來去未來可以去調節作物的種類來去應對市場的變化你們覺得這可行嗎 部長你怎麼看不過我想中和的農場裡面"},{"start":167.808,"end":179.215,"text":"我已經聽過很多農民在跟我講我覺得那個可以設計但是用總收入的概念的時候因為我們現在的農民缺乏收入的依據啦對沒錯 你說稻穗的資料都沒有的時候你就很難去計算"},{"start":183.817,"end":207.523,"text":"所以我想我們初步也許會針對同一個地區它種的比例是多少我們有一個機制是可以用中二的方式來處理這樣我們會有益處其實部長這個我在質詢你之前我其實就已經在跟民間部來討論看有什麼樣的更好的方式所以這個不是做不到因為就是說要怎麼設計因為其實像美國日本他們還有歐盟都有這個農場總收入保險的制度所以說"},{"start":208.763,"end":225.406,"text":"第一線農民的期盼那也有國際的範例所以我們就可以來想方法是看怎麼樣去設計那剛才其實部長你提到的其實我蠻理解的因為就沒有這個相關的報稅資料你怎麼去做一個統計怎麼去做換算那怎麼樣才可以設計出好的保險嘛但是"},{"start":226.387,"end":244.563,"text":"這個是挑戰但不見得不一定啦不一定一定要完全來依賴這一個報稅的資料就是我們過去農損的時候也常常講到一件事就是看你像地區的平均產量啊或者是市場公開拍賣的均價等等的有沒有可能用這些其他種類的公開數據來建立這個計算的模型"},{"start":245.755,"end":264.113,"text":"我想這個部分我可以請我們的同仁獵人專案去研究啦因為中和農場跟個別的產量它本身的比較一定要有個加權就這樣做所以這個請他們先做評估因為我也沒有說有預設立場說你就用這個平均產量還是用市產公開拍賣就沒有了"},{"start":265.053,"end":280.707,"text":"這還是希望農業部 我們可以來請他們來評估對對對 這相關的咱去研究一下怎麼樣才能夠把這個多樣化的這種保單類型來做出來因為現在青農不是只做單一作物嘛那他們有各種不同的看法想法那我覺得是可以試試看的"},{"start":281.368,"end":309.992,"text":"那部長我也拜讀了就是關於這個保費輔助裡面的報告裡面我當然理解說在有限的我們還是財政資源不是無限不是我們想怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣那確保說輔助的效益那還要避免我們道德的風險那但是如果與其就像剛才你提到我們在算嘛就哪一個最沒有沒有效益的把它剔除掉讓我們的未來的保單更有效益或者是說把這個與其把這個資源輔助分散在數十種的單一保單上"},{"start":310.512,"end":333.052,"text":"我認為把一部分的資源就剛剛講的來試辦一下我們剛才提到的多種類的這個農場走收入的保險我覺得是不是可以更我認為啦可以更優化預算的效益那對未來我們產業升級那是有幫助的好 謝謝部長部長真的要研究一下這個我們地方很多農會都有在想這件事情我們一定會來積極來努力因為本身"},{"start":334.233,"end":355.895,"text":"補助的上限是一件事情但是如何更精進保單的效率讓農民願意來投保才是比較重要的我們必須要關切的這除了單一個別農民講這是很多農民又反映到農會然後農會再跟我們講所以我想這個是可以做的那農會這些再算他覺得說這個可能會增加投保的意願特別青農現在都回來了再麻煩一下好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1222,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時55分）我們請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，我有看貴部的書面報告，其中農業保險的覆蓋率到今年4月底已經達到了53.72%，理賠金額已經超過60億，這個我覺得是一個很大的進展，可是這個地方我想要請教部長，你們知道超過五成的覆蓋率中，政策性引導的水稻農民保險占相當大的比例，也就是說，很多種植多元作物的農民可能還在觀望，想要尋找更適合他們經營類型的好商品，所以我想請教部長，你報告裡面有提到說持續精進開發保單來去符合農民的需求，除了現行的單一品項，有沒有可能設計更多樣化經營的農民保險商品？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們現在如果扣掉政策性的保險，覆蓋率大概20.7%，20.7%裡面如果看品項的話，你會發現漁產品的部分特別低，才2.7%而已，然後有些作物是非常低，所以我們現在會針對這些過往的投保中，有保單但是投保的件數非常低的，我們拉出來重新檢討到底那張保單為什麼不受歡迎，這個部分我們會檢討。","第二個部分就是，我們也發現有一些農民需要一些新的保單，這個部分我們也會來開發，但是開發有個前提就是過往的風險災損資訊要夠，才能夠開發，所以我想我們會持續來精進。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。部長，我之所以問這個問題，是因為我們有很多種植多樣化作物的青農，就是不只是種一種作物而已，而是種番茄、鳳梨等等各種不同的作物。"],["陳部長駿季：綜合的。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，綜合的，可是他們的反映是說，現在的保單只能夠覆蓋到單一作物，所以他們希望可以開發更多元的保單，讓這些青農有機會能夠來去納保，保障比較不足的，也可以提高他們投保的意願。針對這個部分，不知道部長有沒有什麼看法？有一種保單的方式，就是按照他們整個農場的總收入，未來可以去調節作物的種類，來去應對市場的變化，這個可行嗎？部長，你怎麼看？"],["陳部長駿季：我想，關於綜合的農場，我已經聽過很多農民跟我講，我覺得那個可以設計，但是用總收入的概念的時候，因為我們現在的農民缺乏收入的依據……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，沒錯，你說報稅的資料是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：銷售的、報稅的資料都沒有的時候，就很難去計算，所以我想我們初步也許會針對同一個地區種的比例是多少，我們有一個機制，是可以用綜合的方式來處理，我們會來研議。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，部長，其實我在質詢你之前就已經在跟農業部討論，看看有什麼樣更好的方式，所以這個不是做不到，而是說要怎麼設計，因為其實像美國、日本和歐盟，都有農場總收入保險的制度，所以說，既有第一線農民的期盼，也有國際的範例，我們就可以來想方法，看怎麼樣去設計。剛才部長提到的，其實我滿理解的，因為就沒有相關的報稅資料，你怎麼去做統計，怎麼去做換算，怎麼樣才可以設計出好的保險？但是這個是挑戰，但不一定要完全依賴報稅的資料，就是我們過去農損的時候也常常講到一件事情，就是看地區的平均產量或市場公開拍賣的均價等等，有沒有可能用這些其他種類的公開數據來建立這個計算的模型？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分我可以請我們的同仁列為專案去研究，因為綜合農場跟個別種類的農場在產量上做比較，一定要有一個加權去調整。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，沒錯，沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個請他們先做評估。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我也沒有說有預設立場，說就用平均產量去計算，還是希望農業部……"],["陳部長駿季：是，我可以請他們來評估。"],["陳委員冠廷：對對對，相關的人員再去研究一下怎麼樣才能夠把多樣化的保單類型做出來，因為現在青農不是只種單一作物，他們有各種不同的看法、想法，我覺得是可以試試看的。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我也拜讀了報告裡面關於保費補助的部分，我當然理解說我們的財政資源不是無限的，不是我們想怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣，要確保補助的效益，還要避免道德的風險，就像剛才你提到的，我們在算，哪一個是最沒有效益的，就把它剔除掉，讓我們未來的保單更有效益，或者是說與其把資源補助分散在數十種單一保單上，我認為把一部分的資源就剛才所講的來試辦一下，我們剛才提到的多種類的農場總收入保險，我認為可以更優化預算的效益，對未來我們的產業升級是有幫助的。","謝謝部長，部長真的要研究一下，地方上很多農會都有在想這件事情。"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會積極努力，因為本身補助的上限是一件事情，但是如何更精進保單的效率，讓農民願意來投保還是比較重要的，這是我們必須要關切的。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是單一個別農民這樣講，很多農民又反映到農會，然後農會再跟我們講，所以我想這個是可以做的，農會有在算這些，它覺得這可能會增加投保的意願，特別是青農現在都回來了，再麻煩部長，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請李彥秀委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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12:57:49","影片長度":"00:05:27","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T12:52:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:57:49+08:00","duration":327,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.93784375,"end":3.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.26659375,"end":5.835968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":8.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.82284375,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.067218750000002,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.35471875,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.27721875,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.445968750000006,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.01971875,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.571593750000005,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.588468750000004,"end":50.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.70659375,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.75721875,"end":51.398468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.76909375,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.18971875,"end":71.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.75409375000001,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.66096875000001,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.48784375000001,"end":76.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.76159375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.81971875,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.08096875000001,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.43096875,"end":87.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.22409375000001,"end":87.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.98346875,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.40534375,"end":95.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.23971875000001,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.74096875000001,"end":106.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.57159375,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.90034375,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.95909375000001,"end":112.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.05971875,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.97471875000001,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.31596875000001,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.15534375000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.93096875,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.47096875000001,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.29221875000002,"end":139.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.57034375,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.74659375000002,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.07221875000002,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.62221875,"end":185.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.63909375,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.21284375000002,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.31409375,"end":187.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.39409375000002,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.42784375000002,"end":187.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.64721875,"end":187.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.66409375,"end":19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謝謝主席 有請次長好 陳正思還有林福山師長林師長"},{"start":11.349,"end":33.666,"text":"委員好好 次長好我們繼續持續面對問題 解決問題這個問題從3月27召開記者會5月2日一來這邊問部長一直到今天 可惜今天部長沒來但我相信陳士凱部長是個願意面對問題 解決問題的人但是不曉得部長對於升降尾門警示燈跟車尾騎的一個推動有多少魄力"},{"start":34.426,"end":63.858,"text":"我們講了很久了到底是要推還是不推市長你知道現在有多少輛裝有升降尾門的車輛嗎有嗎跟委員報告一下那個因為大小貨車大概這個17、8萬輛17、8萬輛那有裝升降尾門的那個數字我們現在特別做部長說回去會研議喔5月21到現在6月11了3週了請問一下升降尾門警示燈跟車尾齊研理的結果如何"},{"start":64.546,"end":78.293,"text":"跟委員報告我這禮拜有開過會然後大概就是說幾個課題我已經把它做一個預計新車什麼時候開始安裝跟委員報告是不是在因為這個要定基準出來那我問你嘛新車在115年1月1號安裝有沒有困難我們朝這個目標來做努力"},{"start":85.297,"end":107.211,"text":"來努力可以承諾嗎我跟委員報告一下我們朝這個目標來做努力因為這個東西這個基準出來之後現在到那個單品新車基本上加快速度去安裝應該困難度比較少這應該沒問題但是那個標準要先出來啦當然我知道要有標準嘛那在舊車呢舊車的這個部分我想說基準出來之後我們再來這個輔導"},{"start":113.687,"end":121.419,"text":"當然舊車要輔導啦 我們也希望給予一些寬限期那我們建議115年6月以後全面安裝 你覺得有困難嗎"},{"start":122.943,"end":145.559,"text":"這個可能我跟文報告這個可能在討論我的認同是可以給予寬限期啦但是你要怎麼樣去加強輔導你要有配套啊那你要告訴我說你要116年我也不是說鐵板一塊溝通產業那你要怎麼具體的方案去做溝通去做配套你要讓我知道啊"},{"start":146.199,"end":167.087,"text":"我想說我們有具體規劃成果就跟委員報告我另外跟委員報告一下那個使用中車輛的一個這個部分當然標準出來之後那使用中車輛如何加裝那這個剛剛講的一個部分使用中車輛高檔這個20萬輛這樣的東西要回去安裝如何安裝在哪邊安裝這個東西都還有一些量能課題這個東西因為我們好"},{"start":169.288,"end":181.938,"text":"這個我都可以體諒但是我要講的是我們要多少人的傷亡才能夠換回這件事情被重視升降尾門不是我在那邊吵那邊鬧是我看到這麼多人死亡市長你知道有人傷亡嗎"},{"start":185.726,"end":202.544,"text":"我瞭解瞭解嘛所以這個已經造成死亡的一個案例我想為了三峽事件我們也積極的在補破網希望能夠做一個變革但是在深巷尾門也有人死亡啊那這個部分上我們也應該好好關切啊可以認同嗎市長"},{"start":203.064,"end":227.933,"text":"是 我想我們很感佩委員對這個議題的一個重視安全是沒辦法打折扣但是實務上要去安裝的時候還有實務上的一個困難那這部分就容許我們在相關後續配套措施那我要講的就是說因為已經有過一段時間了啦在去年的六月跟九月 車安中心就已經討論過了今年三月又討論一次結果還是沒有下文我想市長很清楚"},{"start":229.335,"end":256.471,"text":"這個部分是不是東西我跟文報告一下不是沒有下文因為第一個部分安裝我們家裝警示燈或這個東西去查了都沒有國際的標準那這個好不容易說德國有一個這個標準可以來援引來參考那這個要安裝就必須要比如說這個警示燈他的照度灰度然後國內有沒有這樣子的證據都必須要去去確認等等不然光有基準出來國內沒有這種燈光做安裝的話那想安裝這個"},{"start":258.052,"end":279.051,"text":"好啦 你有找到一些困境可是我要講的是車安中心的其他議題去年12月25日今年3月27日 只開兩次會今年5月中就有7項結果更顯得升降為門警示燈 車尾騎推動我希望你們能夠放在心上好 那老師以納入研議啊 相關討論啊這個藉口我覺得 次長"},{"start":279.731,"end":292.507,"text":"這樣子我認為是不及格我還是要說的不要讓50件100件才要喚起我們的重視而是看到問題就趕快解決問題那所以這個到底要多久你總要有個期程吧市長市長"},{"start":294.609,"end":323.507,"text":"跟我們報告有關標準的部分是不是容許這個兩個月內我已經這個完成這個訂定兩個月內訂定出標準基準然後你要再怎麼去配套去溝通具體的去做輔導然後再來訂出更具體的一個實施時間這樣可以吧兩個月內至少你車安還有內部你要有一個基準可以吧拜託越快越好每一天都可能造成傷亡這個中照委員這個部分加速來辦理"},{"start":324.188,"end":325.357,"text":"好 盡快辦理 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":979,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時52分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：好，請陳政次。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還有林福山司長。"],["主席：請林司長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長好。我們持續面對問題、解決問題啦！這個問題我從3月27日召開記者會、5月21日來這邊問部長一直追到今天，可惜今天部長沒來，但我相信陳世凱部長是個願意面對問題、解決問題的人，只是不曉得部長對於升降尾門安裝警示燈跟車尾旗的推動有多少魄力？我們講很久了，到底是要推還是不推？次長，你知道現在有多少輛裝有升降尾門的車輛嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，因為大小貨車大概有十七、八萬輛……"],["羅委員廷瑋：十七、八萬輛？"],["林司長福山：對，而有裝升降尾門的數字需要再特別檢視。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長說回去後會研議，而從5月21日到現在6月11日已經3週了，請問一下，針對升降尾門安裝警示燈跟車尾旗的研擬結果如何？"],["林司長福山：我這禮拜開過會，已經大概針對幾個課題……"],["羅委員廷瑋：預計什麼時候開始新車要安裝？"],["林司長福山：是不是再給我們一段時間？因為要訂基準出來。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那我問你嘛！新車從115年1月1日起安裝有沒有困難？"],["林司長福山：我們朝這個目標努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：來努力？"],["林司長福山：是，因為這東西……"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以承諾嗎？"],["林司長福山：我跟委員報告一下，我們朝這個目標努力。因為基準出來之後，還牽涉單品……"],["羅委員廷瑋：基本上，針對新車安裝加快速度，困難度應該比較少啊！"],["林司長福山：應該沒問題，但是標準要先出來啦！就是如果要安裝……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，我知道要有標準嘛！那舊車呢？"],["林司長福山：對於舊車部分，等基準出來之後，我們再來輔導。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然對舊車要輔導啦！我們也希望給予一些寬限期。我建議在115年6月以後全面安裝，你覺得有困難嗎？"],["林司長福山：這可能要再討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我是認同給予寬限期啦！但是要怎麼加強輔導？你要有配套啊！你告訴我要到116年，我也不是鐵板一塊，如果要溝通產業，那麼要透過什麼具體方案溝通及做配套，你要讓我知道啊！"],["林司長福山：我們有具體規劃成果之後，就會向委員報告。","另外跟委員報告一下，使用中車輛的標準出來之後，會規定使用中車輛如何加裝，但如同剛剛講的使用中車輛有高達20萬輛要回去安裝，如何安裝、在哪安裝這些部分都還有量能等課題，這些……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這些我都可以體諒，但我要講的是，要多少人傷亡才能換得這件事情被重視？升降尾門不是我在吵、在鬧，而是我看到這麼多人死亡啊！次長，你知道有人傷亡嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我了解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：了解嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：了解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：已經造成死亡案例。為了三峽事件，我們也在積極地補破網，希望做出變革，但是升降尾門也造成人員死亡，這部分我們也應該好好關切啊！可以認同嗎，次長？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們很感佩委員對這個議題的重視，安全是沒辦法打折扣，但是要安裝有實務上的困難……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["陳次長彥伯：這部分就容許我們在相關後續配套措施研擬的時候一併考量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我要講的是這已經拖了一段時間，在去年6月和9月車安中心就討論過了，今年3月又討論一次，結果還是沒有下文，我想司長很清楚。"],["林司長福山：這部分是不是容許我跟委員報告一下？不是沒有下文，而是我們針對尾門加裝警示燈查過，都沒有國際標準，好不容易查到德國有標準可以援引、參考，若要安裝就必須考量……譬如說警示燈的照度、輝度，然後是國內有沒有這樣的燈具，都必須確認，不然光有基準出來，國內卻沒有這種燈光可以安裝的話，想安裝……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好啦！你有找到一些困境，可是我要講車安中心的其他議題，只有在去年12月25日、今年3月27日開兩次會，今年5月中就有7項結果，對於升降尾門警示燈、車尾旗的推動，我希望你們能夠放在心上，老是用納入研議、相關討論這些藉口，次長，我認為這樣不及格，我還是要說，不要等發生50件、100件才喚起我們的重視，而是看到問題就要趕快解決問題。所以到底要多久？總要有個期程吧，司長、次長？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，有關標準的部分，是不是能容許我們在兩個月後完成訂定？"],["羅委員廷瑋：兩個月內訂定出標準？"],["林司長福山：基準。"],["羅委員廷瑋：基準？"],["林司長福山：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：然後研究怎麼配套、溝通、具體輔導，再訂出更具體的實施時間？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這樣可以吧？"],["林司長福山：可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：兩個月內，你們內部至少對車安要有個基準，可以吧？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：拜託，愈快愈好，每一天都可能造成傷亡。"],["林司長福山：好，我們會遵照委員要求，就這個部分加速辦理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們儘快來辦理。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢。","現在請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c97549d51cf6991f578c2a0f21558b58c3dea46edf933af6806812948a7a6596355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"12:45:20 - 12:52:10","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T12:45:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:52:10+08:00","duration":410,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0603437500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.14471875,"end":4.705343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.92471875,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.15596875,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.459093750000001,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.64596875,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.47596875,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.97534375,"end":59.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.228468750000005,"end":59.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.78534375,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.10596875,"end":61.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.01284375,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.23596875,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.83471875000001,"end":75.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.51284375,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.86096875000001,"end":98.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.56409375000001,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.61471875000001,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.70221875,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.97221875000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.49534375,"end":106.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.52909375,"end":126.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.86784375,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.15784375,"end":143.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.56971875000002,"end":159.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.24659375000002,"end":159.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.38159375,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.97221875,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.73159375,"end":171.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.61596875,"end":177.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.47659375,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.21471875,"end":174.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.34096875,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.37471875,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.97784375,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.14096875,"end":195.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.93784375,"end":191.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.57846875,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.67409375000003,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.69096875000002,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.32284375,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.34346875,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.75409375,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.52159375000002,"end":251.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.48971875,"end":284.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.07534375,"end":256.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.56284375,"end":268.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.84721875,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.03659375,"end":288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開始北起對 就是鐵路高架就是到那邊那"},{"start":178.464,"end":194.892,"text":"從市城到礁溪頭城的部分我們有沒有一個規劃期程就是未來他這個鐵路高架的這個基層會是在落在什麼時候如果依照目前他鐵路高架就立體化的部分的話大概是有地方政府要提出來他的需求"},{"start":195.952,"end":213.099,"text":"然後進行可行性 那我們來進行審議如果有它的必要性它的急迫性這些還可行 財務可行我想我們這個會來支持好 鐵路高架對於宜蘭縣縫合這個東西向的這個經濟發展是非常重要的那我也期待說這個工程後續"},{"start":214.66,"end":231.311,"text":"我們現在所啟動的這15.8公里以外後續的這個交息跟投診的部分我們也可以盡快來來完成那當然這個也需要縣政府積極來配合那另外有一條這個橋是東山河的宜東橋在東山河的宜東橋"},{"start":235.595,"end":250.474,"text":"宜東橋的部分在去年我們公路局9月27的時候已經審核通過了然後那到現在都沒有結果我想請教局長那針對宜東橋的後續的期程我們有沒有一個安排的一個"},{"start":250.994,"end":268.147,"text":"跟委員報告去年九月多那個是大概是初步的一個就是說審查不過我們後來到去年年底我們有安排現勘因為它宜東橋確實就像委員那個照片說的它的橋面的寬度不夠然後我們還要抬高"},{"start":268.587,"end":284.215,"text":"因為這個然後而且他還要做這個兩端的引導所以大概我們有給那個就是縣府一些意見那縣府大概做了修正經過我們東分局有給他協助所以這個今年有報到我們這邊了我們會盡速再來做一個審查"},{"start":286.195,"end":311.383,"text":"因為這個橋已經45年了這個安全問題我相信大家都很擔心那除了橋面不夠寬那裡面的橋墩會影響到水流我相信這是公法上我們可以看得出來所以我也希望說這個橋能夠盡快來決定說什麼時候要改建讓民眾有一個更加安全的一個通行路那另外主席再借一分鐘"},{"start":312.233,"end":332.248,"text":"那這個62線從瑞濱要延伸到宜蘭的部分,那我們分別在去年的8月跟12月交通部跟國發會已經呈報行政院了那對於這個可行性評估的部分,我們後續時間大概還有多久的時間可以正式來完成"},{"start":334.672,"end":362.834,"text":"可行性的部分報院院交給國發會國發會他會商就是院內包括這個財政主計還有相關的工程單位所以大概就是說這個國發會有會診院的一個各單位的意見然後有再依照行政程序也有在院裡面再處理所以我想這個部分只要院核定我們可行性研究的話我們綜合規劃跟環境影響評估我們就開展"},{"start":363.322,"end":383.5,"text":"好那這部分還是拜託我們局長跟次長還有我們部內所有的同仁能夠盡快的來核定早日讓他進入這個綜合規劃那宜蘭對外的聯絡道路我相信不是這個宜花東的人這個引頸期盼而已更是全台灣喜愛旅遊的民眾"},{"start":384.821,"end":409.381,"text":"最大的希望因為你現在要去伊華東你不管是去跟回的時候常常會碰到這種交通的瓶頸所以我拜託我們交通部就是針對這個部分應該要積極的來辦理不管是鐵道的部分或是公路系統的改善讓這個宜蘭對外的這個交通可以盡快的這種視通巴打好 以上謝謝兩位次長及我們的局長好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請陳政次及伍政次。"],["主席：好，請兩位政次。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長午安。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員午安。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長，高鐵延伸宜蘭目前已經進入二階環評的最後階段喔！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們也期待最快期程是8月有最後結果，看看能不能順利在年底進入綜合規劃嘛！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對，這是我們希望的。"],["陳委員俊宇：現在宜蘭縣政府也提出一個構想，就是鐵路跟高鐵共構的想法，既可以減少土地徵收的經費，也可以減少農地破損的原因，我想請教次長，這個部分可行性為何？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我跟委員報告，這兩者目前進度是不一樣的，如果要把兩者放在一起，我認為宜蘭高架計畫的進度會受到嚴重影響，因為現在高鐵部分還在做專案小組審查，第一次去時委員也很熱心地參加，第二次則等著環境部安排，因為我們做了一些修正要加以說明；至於宜蘭高鐵，環評部分已經沒有問題，如果還要再等兩個路廊共構的話，我看整個環評都會……"],["陳委員俊宇：期程會往後延……"],["伍代理董事長勝園：一定往後延、絕對往後延，而且延後的時間可能不少。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。","在高鐵延伸宜蘭部分，所通行的路廊會經過許多農地，也會有禁限建相關問題，那麼在禁限建還有徵收農地時，對於農民的權益有沒有什麼基本保障等想法？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：在禁限建這部分，我想跟委員報告，其實不是禁限建，只是他們來申請時，我們希望不要影響到高鐵的結構安全而已，一般來說大概都會准，沒有問題，只是要考慮這之間的關係，我想禁限建不是問題；至於徵收部分，我們當然會依照目前的徵收相關規定給予優惠，包括自動拆遷之類的，可以給他一些獎勵金，我們會用最優惠的方式辦理。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。","另外，現在鐵路高架的部分已經從冬山、羅東一直到四城這邊了嘛！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：四城沒有。"],["陳委員俊宇：就是沿……"],["伍代理董事長勝園：從四城開始爬上去。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以鐵路高架就是到那邊嘛！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：從四城到礁溪、頭城的部分有沒有規劃期程？也就是說未來鐵路高架的期程會落在什麼時候？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：依照目前鐵路高架也就是立體化的規劃，大概是地方政府要提出需求，然後進行可行性評估，我們會來審議，如果有必要性、急迫性，還有財務可行，我們會來支持。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。鐵路高架對於宜蘭縣縫合東西向經濟發展來說是非常重要的，我也期待這項工程的後續發展，除了現在啟動的這15.8公里以外，後續礁溪與頭城部分也可以儘快完成。當然這也需要縣政府積極配合啦！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外是關於冬山河的宜冬橋，公路局去年9月27日已經審核通過了，但是到現在都沒有結果。我想請教局長，針對宜冬橋的後續期程有沒有安排時間？"],["陳局長文瑞：有，去年九月多是初步的審查。"],["陳委員俊宇：初審？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。不過我們後來在去年年底安排現勘，因為宜冬橋確實就像委員照片上說的橋面寬度不夠，需要抬高，而且還要做兩端引道，所以我們給了縣府一些意見，縣府大概做了修正，再經過東分局給予協助，今年有報到我們這邊了，我們會儘速審查。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。這道橋已經45年了。"],["陳局長文瑞：了解。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於安全問題，我相信大家都很擔心。除了橋面不夠寬，橋墩也會影響到水流，我相信從工法上看得出來，所以我希望針對這座橋能夠儘快決定什麼時候要改建，讓民眾有更加安全的通行路廊。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：主席，再借1分鐘。臺62線從瑞濱延伸到宜蘭的部分，交通部跟國發會已經分別在去年8月跟12月陳報行政院，對於可行性評估，後續大概還要多久時間可以正式完成？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，可行性部分報院後，院交給國發會，國發會再會商院內財政、主計以及相關工程單位，國發會彙整院內各單位的意見後，已經依照行政程序在院內處理，只要院核定可行性研究的話，我們的綜合規劃與環境影響評估就會開展。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，還是拜託局長、次長以及部內所有同仁儘快核定，早日讓它進入綜合規劃。","我相信宜蘭對外聯絡道路不只是宜花東人引頸期盼而已，更是全臺灣喜愛旅遊的民眾最大的希望，因為現在前往宜花東，不管去或回都常常碰到交通瓶頸，所以拜託交通部針對這個部分積極辦理，不管是鐵道或公路系統的改善，讓宜蘭對外交通可以儘快四通八達。以上，謝謝兩位次長及局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員的質詢。","現在請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162464","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162464","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9cbd3a81d4e2dc1278c2a0f21558b58c3dea46edf933af680bebb33ff5aa7d9f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:38:29 - 12:45:03","影片長度":"00:06:34","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T12:38:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:45:03+08:00","duration":394,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.56534375,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.582218750000003,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.825968750000001,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.01534375,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.16721875,"end":22.609718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.79534375,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.68534375,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.79471875,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.91659375,"end":33.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.50659375,"end":35.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.70034375,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.71659375,"end":62.367218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.99159375000001,"end":64.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.03346875,"end":65.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.96159375,"end":67.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.15534375,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.23534375,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.59784375000001,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.02346875,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.58034375000001,"end":75.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.61409375000001,"end":82.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.08971875,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.27471875,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.91534375,"end":94.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.13846875,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.18034375,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.67784375000001,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.19221875000001,"end":109.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.76909375000001,"end":111.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.54534375,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.49034375000001,"end":124.28159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.77096875000001,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.69471875,"end":128.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.63534375,"end":129.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.86721875,"end":130.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.82909375,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.87096875,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.20784375,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.84034375000002,"end":141.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.48971875,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.13909375,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.29909375,"end":149.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.57284375,"end":151.61909375000002},{"speaker":"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我覺得我會拿得不太好意思我們真的是希望給當地的就是你在那邊有居住的行為的我們這樣子比較合理啦因為畢竟它是對外的一個交通我來說齁我來說這個 這個不是我開創的花東那個台鐵過去那個買票的實名制就是這樣啊"},{"start":359.813,"end":388.047,"text":"對不對是針對你在UV你但是你只是針對你要去台東去花蓮的時候才有這個所以這個部分而且給你沒有要你去虧錢去跟花東基金去協調去申請所以既然是花東基金那你就把它擴大包括在花蓮台東的就學的學生好不好"},{"start":389.945,"end":390.569,"text":"來研究 謝謝好 謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":917,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時38分）召委、各位委員。有請次長和臺鐵公司的代理董事長。"],["主席：請陳次長，請伍政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你好，大家辛苦了。0403地震之後，已經很久很久了，整個臺鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫目前進度怎麼樣？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛講我們大概分幾個部分，有短期的，我們針對一些排水設施有加大，我們做一些告警的設施，還有包括一個阻隔設施，這邊都有在做。另外，在畫面上所講的是屬於中期的部分，64.1億這個計畫目前已經報到部裡面去。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長，報院了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會來加速相關的處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長，6月4日臺鐵公司有函復，在6月4日之後，我也質詢過部長。交通部在5月1日審查之後，臺鐵公司也很快地把公文送到交通部了，現在到底發文了沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：我再跟委員確認一下，關於這個文，我剛才跟同仁討論，我們已經報院了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：已經報院了？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["鄭天財Sra 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人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162463","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162463","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9c2601bf6d1b14c8f8c2a0f21558b58c3dea46edf933af6804a089865aff813835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"12:31:02 - 12:38:08","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T12:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:38:08+08:00","duration":426,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.83659375,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.03346875,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.079718750000001,"end":25.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.84971875,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.494093750000005,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.34159375,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.822218750000005,"end":64.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.23159375,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.51409375,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.42346875,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.88284375,"end":86.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.51034375,"end":93.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.33284375000001,"end":95.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.63221875,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.40784375000001,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.74784375,"end":118.15596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.87784375000001,"end":121.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.30784375,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.04971875000001,"end":127.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.74534375,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.24096875,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.03221875,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.63346875000002,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.00034375,"end":172.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.91534375,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.12034375000002,"end":191.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.44409375,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.41409375,"end":194.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.10534375,"end":205.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.53471875000002,"end":229.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.98659375000003,"end":230.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.27346875,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.94346875000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.86721875,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.25096875000003,"end":239.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.20409375000003,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.08159375000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.60471875000002,"end":246.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.40596875000003,"end":249.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.34659375,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.42221875,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.82284375,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.70034375000003,"end":254.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.21471875,"end":258.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.04096875,"end":266.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.55534375,"end":264.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.33534375,"e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去記錄當時的相關的一個那您是診斷記錄啊 人家這個是提醒啊我們標榜我們AI 我們智慧國家但是在交通這一塊這麼的不智慧 這個是不行的我希望你們好好的去研議喔那我現在看起來對 我們了解一下"},{"start":325.129,"end":343.864,"text":"對你們現在研議的內容我覺得太空泛了而且這些真正人家其他國家做得好的部分都沒有上來另外一個就是危險駕駛的部分針對高風險有一些國家他會限制像我剛剛講的83歲以上如果他要開高速公路他要高速駕駛夜間駕駛"},{"start":345.485,"end":351.491,"text":"那這個部分適不適合有沒有配合他後面的那個整個身體健康的狀況的見解那像你可以看到美國人家是很細緻的就是他會去做這樣子的一個評估然後呢像這個南韓我覺得也做得很好"},{"start":360.58,"end":376.27,"text":"他會根據你這個個案他會去認為如果你年紀夠太大你就是社區駕駛就好但是不以夜間駕駛或是高速駕駛我覺得這些都是非常細膩的人家做的比我們好的部分這個次長我對你有信心我希望"},{"start":376.87,"end":401.666,"text":"這個你交通專業 這一些其他國家做得好的部分藉著這一次我們的高齡駕駛出現這麼多的狀況我覺得國家有責任 我們提出一個更好的政策更好的配套 然後來讓我們的這一些高齡者他們真的就是在國家的相關政策跟配套底下是安全的駕駛 那有一些該禁止的就是你的禁止是保護他的安全你們也應該要拿出你們的原則跟看法"},{"start":404.247,"end":419.433,"text":"最後再強調一次你們之前漏網之語現在已經高齡83歲以上的這一群人你們通通都沒有進一步的去管理這個部分我要求你們應該要重新就是去要求他們檢測然後真的83歲以上高齡還適合開車再讓他開而不是現在完全都不管以上謝謝謝謝委員的指教"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":879,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時31分）謝謝召委，有請次長。"],["主席：好，請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：次長好。次長，我今天要跟你討論的是高齡駕駛的議題，第一個問題就是，在106年的時候，你們讓年滿75歲以上的駕駛完全不用換照，可以繼續駕駛，你知道嗎？當時75歲的這一群人，事隔8年，他們現在最低年齡的可能已經83歲了，而這些人如果現在還在開車，現行規定75歲的被要求到一定時間要換照，而這些人是都不用的，但是他們適合嗎？這個部分你們獨漏這個黑數，完全沒有管。民國100年你們去考察各國的時候，高齡駕駛是全面列管，為什麼臺灣到現在還存在有83歲以上的老人家在駕駛，但是交通部是完全不管的，他們也不用回來換照，你要不要管？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告一下，我們106年開始實施換照，對於當時75歲以上的駕駛，我們是採用動態管理的方式，不是不管，就是說，當他們有違規肇事……"],["王委員育敏：沒有動態管理，你們那時候是有違規記點才管，但是如果有一些擦撞，或是已經不適合，他可能常常有狀況，不見得違反你們的規則，但是已經就是不適合，那這個你怎麼管？"],["陳次長彥伯：他有擦撞的話，應該都有相關的肇事紀錄，所以……"],["王委員育敏：不一定肇事，他可能只是自己去撞到路邊或什麼，你們的交通規則裡面是規定，跟人家產生一些糾紛的時候，你們才會處理，或者是他實質闖紅燈……"],["陳次長彥伯：另外，就我的了解，公路局也會針對這一群，有相關的關懷方案。"],["王委員育敏：次長，我要問的是，你們這一部分就打算繼續這樣子都不管，是不是？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，我們從相關的數據……"],["王委員育敏：你們就應該要比照現在的75歲，要求這一群人，他們都已經到83歲了，如果要繼續駕駛，他們必須要回來，你要檢測他們的體能，你現在的政策很矛盾，針對75歲你把關這麼嚴格，對現在還在開車的83歲長者，你是完全沒有在管，我覺得這是不對的，當時監察院也糾舉你們，你們這樣其實是便宜行事，就是擔心工作太多，所以才沒有去管。針對這個部分：第一個，我就講我的訴求，我要求應該是要管的，要不然在政策上，你自己說服不了自己，對於75歲的，你還要求他們回來健檢，那這一些已經高齡83歲的人，什麼都不用做，這個在政策上的不一致，我要求你們澈底檢討，這個部分我希望次長你可以帶回去，我認為這是一個嚴肅的課題，監察院也糾正你們，你們當時這樣便宜行事，到現在還繼續讓這個漏洞沒有補起來，我覺得應該是要補起來。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會把委員的意見帶回去，如果有必要的話，我們會提供相關的書面給委員瞭解。"],["王委員育敏：對，這個我要求一定是要管的。第二個就是，你們相關的配套現在還沒看到，你剛剛特別提到說你們3個月之後要端出來，我不知道要端出什麼樣的方案，那我就問你，這幾項會不會在你的方案裡面？第一個是自動緊急煞車系統要強制配備，應該要配備的部分，目前包括日本、南韓、歐盟、美國，他們其實統統都有在做一些相關的實施，這個有沒有在你們的方案？有或沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，這是屬於新車的安全法規，我們已經納入法規的……UNECE的法規，我們已經納入了。"],["王委員育敏：將來會做嘛，預計從幾年開始？"],["陳次長彥伯：應該是117年的新車。"],["王委員育敏：這麼久？"],["陳次長彥伯：因為那是小型車的新車，然後……"],["王委員育敏：所以117年以後全面也都會加裝AEB？"],["陳次長彥伯：出來的新車會採用。"],["王委員育敏：那既有的呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：既有形式的話，是在119年。"],["王委員育敏：那現在既有的車輛呢？你們會不會去要求？高齡的部分。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，這個就像剛才游顥委員提到的，有些是可以加裝的，但加裝以後會牽涉到整個車輛系統的問題，恐怕不改還好，改了可能會出問題，這樣一個技術有一定的困難。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分，我要求你們應該要去研議。","另外一個是OBD車載診斷系統，這個部分在你們現在的方案裡面有沒有？日本有、南韓有、荷蘭也有、歐盟也有，在你們現在研議的方案裡面有沒有這一個要去配套的安裝系統？有沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們有相關的EDR行車紀錄系統，跟這個的意思是一樣的。"],["王委員育敏：它也可以發揮減速示警的效果，就是到一些敏感區域……"],["陳次長彥伯：它會診斷、記錄當時的相關資料。"],["王委員育敏：那是診斷紀錄，人家這個是提醒，我們標榜我們是AI智慧國家，但是在交通這一塊這麼的不智慧，這個是不行的，我希望你們好好地去研議。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們瞭解一下。"],["王委員育敏：我現在看起來，你們現在研議的內容，我覺得太空泛了，而且這一些其他國家真正做得好的部分，我們都沒有跟上。","另外一個就是危險駕駛的部分，針對高風險，有一些國家會限制年齡高的駕駛，像我剛剛講的83歲以上，如果他要開高速公路，他要高速駕駛、夜間駕駛，那這個部分適不適合？有沒有配合他後面整個身體健康狀況的健檢？你可以看到，美國是很細緻的，會去做這樣子的評估；像南韓，我覺得也做得很好，在南韓，會根據個案，如果相關單位認為駕駛年紀太大，就是社區駕駛就好，但是不宜夜間駕駛或高速駕駛，我覺得這些都是非常細膩的，是人家做得比我們好的部分。次長，我對你有信心，你是交通專業，這一些其他國家做得好的部分，藉著這一次我們的高齡駕駛出現這麼多的狀況，我覺得國家有責任，我們提出一個更好的政策、更好的配套，然後讓這些高齡者真的在國家相關政策跟配套底下安全駕駛，有一些該禁止的就禁止，禁止是保護他的安全，你們應該要拿出你們的原則跟看法。","最後我再強調一次，你們之前的漏網之魚，現在已經高齡83歲以上的這一群人，你們統統都沒有進一步地去管理，這個部分我要求你們應該要重新去要求他們檢測，然後真的83歲以上高齡還適合開車的人，再讓他開，而不是像現在完全都不管。以上，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的質詢。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162462","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162462","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9dcb241ac496e18b88c2a0f21558b58c3dea46edf933af6804a089865aff813835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:23:02 - 12:30:50","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T12:23:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:30:50+08:00","duration":468,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.81909375,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.679718750000001,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.51909375,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.90596875,"end":53.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.47409375,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.29221875,"end":72.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.35721875,"end":73.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.46659375,"end":76.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.20034375,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.15846875,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.82471875000002,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.13409375,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.53534375,"end":202.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.15971875000002,"end":202.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.88534375,"end":215.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.38971875000001,"end":217.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.41471875000002,"end":220.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.89096875,"end":224.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.27409375000002,"end":256.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.64909375,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.81659375000004,"end":323.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.15659375,"end":360.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.14346875,"end":455.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.85409375,"end":461.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.64659375,"end":466.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.00096875,"end":462.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.10159375,"end":467.92409375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.862,"end":6.783,"text":"謝謝趙偉 那有請次長好 陳次長"},{"start":14.142,"end":42.113,"text":"委員好市長好那延續剛才學生委員他所提到的大概在這個長輩未來來講的這個因為三峽的事件之後那時候有包括的一些就是重新換照的標準有提高那在本席在兩個禮拜前那時候有提到那時候鼓勵他們長輩換照的一個普及率跟通知的一個比例那時候有提到能夠讓長輩"},{"start":43.991,"end":58.484,"text":"能夠盡量來鼓勵換照用一些優惠券來鼓勵他們說小禮物但是其實更務實的做法還是回歸到長輩他們相關在車子的輔助系統那在其他國外其實都有相關的補貼補助"},{"start":59.545,"end":76.184,"text":"那時候在提出的時候交通部那時候部長是有說會再演繹那我想請問一下這個演繹也兩個多禮拜到現在那相關的長輩的車子這種輔助系統他們在申請的這個方案那現在有沒有進展"},{"start":77.247,"end":105.487,"text":"跟委員報告一下這上次委員這個執行完之後那大概是指日本這個所謂防霧採油門的部分那我們也立刻去這個透過包括車輛專業去了解日本現在相關的規定那確實就是說日本有一個這個裝置就是說車輛在10公里以下或是車輛在停止的時候那如果說突然有採油門他透過一個影像偵測的方式那如果說前面有障礙物的部分他就切斷這個油門"},{"start":107.088,"end":126.182,"text":"那這個東西基本上是一個後裝的這個部分那我們也去了解說這樣子的裝置基本上跟廠牌適用的這個車型都有關那這個裡面還有一些技術的一個課題我們現在車安中心也在持續做一個這個分析也在了解說這個產品在日本"},{"start":126.562,"end":148.696,"text":"因為這東西真的一方面是講說可能這個可防止霧彩但是另外一個部分的話會不會有其他的一個相關的部分這個東西技術課題都還要再做處理另外產品的一個在日本的認證方式是怎樣子這個部分我們都持續在這個數學資料跟這個研究當中因為這個東西是一個裝置可能要這個作業也更慎重一點"},{"start":150.225,"end":169.481,"text":"那大致上這個裝置它就是為了要這種的情況高齡者在駕駛的時候而有的這種的裝置那在日本的話都已經有相關的一個補貼的一個措施那當然要不要申請是在於就是行車的包括長輩他們要不要來就是跟機關做申請是相關的補貼"},{"start":170.442,"end":195.334,"text":"那所以當然說有進度他已經在進行這個研究很好那當然說各個車型當然就有各個不同的一個相關的這個一定能夠理解那北京還是希望說在一個月之內還能夠把這一個是不是有補貼方案也能夠跟社會大眾來做一個說明因為我相信這個部分民眾也在期待這個補貼方案到底什麼時候能夠有那大致上這是合理的啦"},{"start":195.994,"end":223.84,"text":"這個有補貼這個車廂的一個改進我相信這個絕對是正向合理OK那我想跟委員說明一下委員剛才提到的那樣的一個補貼的機制或獎勵的機制等等的我們對外也說明會在三個月內提出相關的一個配套措施我想在那個方案裡頭我們一併來說說好 那我尊重你的時間那再來就是軍人登機禮遇的這件事情那國防部今天在場的長官要不要一起出來"},{"start":226.308,"end":256.048,"text":"但是在昨天的時候那國民黨跟民眾黨大家通過這個不管是志願役或義務役那在這個包括親自待遇的部分那都能夠有一個保障那相信這個對於目前辛苦的甚至榮譽的我們的現役軍人包括義務役那也都是一個很好的一個一個一個鼓勵啦因為他們確實是為國辛勞那在交通部以及國防部"},{"start":256.788,"end":271.34,"text":"在昨天要通過之前也趕快開了一個記者會有提到軍人登基榮譽的措施本席也同樣認為我們尊重軍人 榮耀軍人都是一個很正確的事情必須讓他們保家衛國"},{"start":272.401,"end":288.069,"text":"但是在這個目前來講他在現役軍員的部分能夠做一個登機禮遇的部分他只有針對國際線那我以前在當兵的時候在服役那時候是海龍蛙兵但是我剛好做參議啊做差架所以說"},{"start":288.769,"end":313.252,"text":"我知道說在外島的部隊的阿兵哥其實他們在國內線的時候他們是不是能夠有這樣子的榮譽對他們鼓勵太陽他們需求比較大並不是每一個現役軍人都有那麼充足的時間他還可以長飛國外可以自由行畢竟當很多的軍人他們其實雖然放假了之後能夠回家陪家人就已經不容易了那所以說還是要問一下"},{"start":313.772,"end":323.28,"text":"不管是交通部或是國防部的長官看這個國內線的話目前進展如何那才是實際上對軍人最直接的一個理喻"},{"start":331.183,"end":359.982,"text":"那我想跟委員說明一下有關那個軍人登機領域我的了解是應該是航空公司應該是國內線的航空公司主動提出來規劃的所以剛才委員特別提到是不是可以擴展到國內線等等的這個我想我們會轉達透過民航局轉達給國內的相關的航空公司看他們怎麼樣來做相關的規劃朝著委員的一個方向來努力"},{"start":360.182,"end":381.094,"text":"好沒關係市長我不為難你那其實在這個部分華民航局他很明確的說六家國際航空業者都要針對國際線的部分還來協助這個軍人禮遇登機的部分那在這一個政策為何會如此來有這個措施跟禮遇那媒體報導也是也直接指出的是由上到下啦"},{"start":381.494,"end":406.557,"text":"那由上到下在趕在昨天運會的那個通過軍人條例的時間點這個沒有關係只要能夠榮耀軍人我們都是樂觀其成但是如果說以民航局的話他也直接提到說這是針對國際線那所以國內線目前來講確實是沒有那所以本期在這裡還是要為我們軍人的需求啊為我們國軍弟兄還是要反映如果說在機會的這個登機啊禮遇的部分那國內線的話其實相對來講"},{"start":407.478,"end":423.937,"text":"他們也是更有需求而且包括離島的軍人他們更是會用得到那當然說機位一個蘿蔔一個坑啊大家也不會說造成任何說機會會去插隊的問題並不會那如果說要榮耀軍人來感恩我們軍人的一個付出那國內線的話其實確實是"},{"start":426.84,"end":455.382,"text":"更是需要的那所以本席在這裡還是請交通部也表達跟國防部還以及相關的我們的民航局還能夠針對國內線的部分還能夠有一些社會的回應或是進展那同樣的在退役軍人以及軍眷還在那天的記者會也提到說要做一個演繹那這個部分演繹有沒有會不會那也希望到時候再過一段時間還本席會持續追蹤這個社會各界一個回應"},{"start":456.877,"end":467.412,"text":"建文會轉給民航局 請問國際航空公司來考量好 謝謝 那除了民航局之外國防部的態度我希望也有 OK 謝謝是 是 好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":863,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時23分）謝謝召委。有請次長。"],["主席：好，請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["游委員顥：次長好。延續剛才雪生委員所提到的議題，三峽的事件之後，未來長輩駕駛重新換照的標準有提高，本席在兩個禮拜前有提到鼓勵長輩換照的普及率跟通知的比例，提到鼓勵長輩儘量來換照，用一些優惠券和送小禮物來鼓勵他們，但是其實更務實的做法還是回歸到改善長輩車子的輔助系統，在國外其實都有相關的補貼、補助，那時候我提出這些建議，交通部部長有說會再研議，那我想請問一下，這個研議到現在也已經經過兩個多禮拜，長輩車子輔助系統的申請方案，現在有沒有進展？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，上次委員提到的，大概是指日本的防誤踩油門的部分，委員質詢完之後，我們也立刻透過車安專業去瞭解日本現在相關的規定，日本的這個裝置，就是車輛在時速10公里以下或是停止的時候，如果突然踩油門，這個裝置就會透過影像偵測的方式，探測到前面有障礙物，就會切斷油門，這個東西基本上是後裝的部分，那我們也去瞭解，這樣子的裝置基本上跟廠牌適用的車型都有關，裡面還有一些技術的課題，現在車安中心也在持續做分析，也在瞭解這個產品在日本的狀況，因為這個東西一方面是講說可防止誤踩油門，但是另外一方面，會不會有其他部分的技術課題，還要再做處理。另外，產品在日本的認證方式是怎樣，這個部分我們都持續在蒐集資料跟研議當中，因為這個東西是一個裝置，可能要周延和慎重一點。"],["游委員顥：大致上這個裝置就是為了防止高齡者在駕駛的時候有這種情況而產生的，在日本都已經有相關的補貼措施，那當然要不要申請是在於行車的長輩要不要來跟機關申請相關的補貼，司長剛剛說有進度，已經在進行相關研究，很好，當然各個車型就有各個不同的裝置，你一定能夠理解，本席還是希望你們在一個月之內能夠把這個是不是有補貼方案跟社會大眾說明，因為我相信民眾也在期待這個補貼方案到底什麼時候能夠有，大致上這是合理的，補貼車子做這樣的改進，我相信絕對是正向合理。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員說明一下，委員剛才提到的補貼機制或獎勵機制等等，我們對外也說明會在三個月內提出相關配套措施，在那個方案裡頭我們一併來說明。"],["游委員顥：好，那就尊重你的時間。","再來就是軍人登機禮遇這件事情，國防部今天在場的長官要不要一起出來？昨天國民黨跟民眾黨委員通過修法，不管是志願役或義務役，在薪資待遇的部分都能夠有一個保障，我相信這個對於目前辛苦的、深具榮譽的現役軍人，包括義務役，都是很好的一個鼓勵，因為他們確實是為國辛勞。交通部及國防部在昨天要通過之前開了一場記者會，有提到軍人登機禮遇的措施，本席也認為我們尊重軍人榮耀是一個很正確的事情，畢竟他們保家衛國，但是在目前來講，對現役軍人給予登機禮遇，只有針對國際線，我以前在服役的時候是海龍蛙兵，那時候剛好做差假，所以我知道，對於外島部隊的阿兵哥搭乘國內線時是不是能夠有這樣子的榮譽，在這方面的鼓勵和需求比較大，並不是每一個現役軍人都有那麼充足的時間可以常飛國外、可以自由行，畢竟很多軍人其實在放假的時候能夠回家陪家人可能就已經不容易了。所以說還是要問一下，不管是交通部或是國防部的長官，國內線的話，目前進展如何？那才是實際上對軍人最直接的禮遇。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員說明一下，有關軍人登機禮遇，我的了解是，應該是國內線的航空公司主動提出來規劃的，所以剛才委員特別提到是不是可以擴展到國內線等等的，我想我們會透過民航局轉達給國內相關航空公司，看他們怎麼樣來做相關規劃，朝著委員建議的方向來努力。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，次長，我不為難你，其實在這個部分，民航局很明確地說，六家國際航空業者都要針對國際線的部分來協助達成軍人登機禮遇，在這一個政策，為何會有這個措施跟禮遇？媒體報導也直接指出，是由上到下，趕在昨天立法院院會通過軍人條例的時間點，這個沒有關係，只要能夠榮耀軍人，我們都是樂觀其成。但是民航局也直接提到，這是針對國際線，所以國內線目前確實是沒有，所以本席在這裡還是要為我們軍人的需求發聲、為我們國軍弟兄來反映，機位的登機禮遇在國內線相對來講，他們更有需求，而且包括離島的軍人，他們更是會用得到，當然機位是一個蘿蔔一個坑，也不會造成任何插隊的問題，並不會，如果說要榮耀軍人、感恩我們軍人的付出，國內線的登機禮遇確實是軍人更需要的，所以本席在這裡還是請交通部、民航局及國防部，希望能夠針對國內線的部分，能夠回應社會或是有所進展。同樣地，對退役軍人及軍眷的部分，在那天的記者會也提到要研議，這個部分的研議有沒有、會不會，本席會持續追蹤，希望再過一段時間你們能給社會各界一個回應。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員的意見，我們會轉給民航局，請國籍航空公司來考量。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。除了民航局之外，我也希望國防部要有態度，OK？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員的質詢。","現在請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c904a91d8e74be25068c2a0f21558b58c3dea46edf933af680efeab28909cd25ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"12:10:58 - 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殷商哪有精算啊用嘴巴打嘴砲啊所以你們不要把我講的話"},{"start":382.474,"end":408.459,"text":"你在立法院對我的承諾然後你們私底下就不繼續做你一個月能不能答覆我你們公安出去沒有你公安付本給我好了因為你要他重新計算不是一個月能夠完成的啦你花點小錢嘛你起碼讓院長知道馬祖大橋在現階段到底需要多少錢嘛是不是有政治的問題嗎 沒有吧有預算的問題嗎 也沒有嘛"},{"start":409.881,"end":436.068,"text":"預算的問題可能在財政上會有點壓力啦,是不是?有技術性的問題嗎?技術性的問題也排除了嘛營商也排除了嘛,是不是?那剩下經費的問題,我也同意,我們延後再來考量嘛那你現在起碼你要給世襲公文啊,好不好?另外那個,局長你請回,你同意嗎?你公安發出去付本給我,好不好?"},{"start":438.399,"end":456.241,"text":"市長那個,上次部長提到70歲以上,因為78歲三峽那邊發生了一個車禍嘛,是不是?然後要加嚴,對70歲以上的人要加嚴嘛,是不是?我也說我也是車禍害者嘛,我也提到嘛,是不是?那我的建議你們開始修法的動作開始做了沒有?"},{"start":457.665,"end":484.754,"text":"我想跟委員報告原則上我們是提出來是提高高齡者的安全價值那至於說相關的提出來以後我們對外也說明說在三個月內會提出相關的一個配套的措施那這部分我們正在做處理我上次主要質詢的內容是希望你們注意到體格的問題嘛是不是體能的問題嘛還有認知功能的測驗嘛"},{"start":487.961,"end":504.779,"text":"老是把78歲來開刀咧那65歲也出了動態車禍那45歲也發生動態車禍那45歲也要來處理囉沒有道理了嘛所以你們在修法的時候你還沒修版本還沒出來啦你修法的時候要有這樣的一個認知好不好"},{"start":506.167,"end":529.373,"text":"不然的話就你們腦袋有問題,不是我腦袋有問題啊原則上我們會對於有風險或高風險的駕駛人有相關的一套處理的機制好不好,這修法是注意一下好不好還有這一次這個造礁啊,條例裡面有扯到噪音的問題噪音啊,噪音車啊你們從原來"},{"start":530.731,"end":557.866,"text":"我看很多委員的提案,從原來的多少?900到1800上限嘛調整一倍,1800到3600嘛你認為對噪音有嚇阻作用嗎?能夠改這個人的都很有錢的咧他們有專門的地方嘛,那個噪音啊那嚇死人耶,以為出車禍這個很像不是爸媽媽媽生的啊那個衝出去以後那種速度啊那會出重大車禍的"},{"start":560.319,"end":578.864,"text":"你們應該把這個標準還要再把它提高啦,你一定要惡煮他啦我跟你講啦你不惡煮他,街頭到處尤其三星半夜啊,到處都是你們怎麼抓?你叫警察去抓嗎?你就開槍打他啦,我跟你講啦,不然他不會停的你的速度沒有他的快嘛,是不是?"},{"start":580.199,"end":595.815,"text":"你們這個方向也要去想一下噢造型車的問題啊你抓不到他的除非你抓到他摩托車你用BMW追他追得上現在造型車都很高檔都雙B的是不是你回答我一下"},{"start":598.119,"end":624.465,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員提到的確實是一個重點那在處罰條例裡面這一個排氣管這個部分只是一個硬體的東西但是產生噪音的那個部分還是要回歸到這個噪音管治法的部分所以有關於這個噪音管治法這個相關的處罰規定的話我們會來建議這一個環境部這個因為像空污法空污法裡面都有到這個吊銷牌照這些相關的部分我們會再來建議你不要找環保署我們要來測"},{"start":626.385,"end":653.405,"text":"你等人到了那車子已經到哪裡了台北他已經開到台中了現在都有那個自動撤噪音的這些科學儀器還有另外一個就是檢舉檢舉檢舉檢舉人你徒增警察的人力嘛是不是五百萬人檢舉那麼警察是五百萬人在那邊現場開單嘛是不是有五百萬件"},{"start":655.185,"end":676.041,"text":"那現在檢舉人已經要取消了,我們上次修法的時候把它取消了現在又來了,檢舉人透過什麼?透過110110打電話去分局,打電話去派出所,派出所跟分局要回報110還存在啊,還是一樣的啊那我也聽說有些人認為說檢舉人制度應該要存在"},{"start":677.452,"end":703.181,"text":"那你叫警察你看,警察現在,你們去看看,任何一個基層的警察他有個腰帶,裡面有電話、手機什麼的,槍、子彈,整排都是啊他們還算有腰啊,那算我的話,那整個褲子要掉下去啦那個重量是多重你知道嗎?好不好,你們在這個檢選制度的部分,你們也要檢討一下好不好"},{"start":704.384,"end":711.056,"text":"其他大概沒什麼事啦,我想尤其高鐵的事情,我是覺得隨便換人都沒道理的,好不好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時11分）謝謝主席、召委。請次長和鐵路局局長。"],["主席：請次長和伍代董事長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：次長，高鐵董事長調到臺鐵去當董事長定案了沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，今天下午的記者會我們會對外說明。"],["陳委員雪生：那是現任的伍代董事長出了差錯還是什麼？他在鐵路局局長任內有出狀況嗎？是表現不好要撤換？"],["陳次長彥伯：他做得很好，只是當時他是兼任。"],["陳委員雪生：兼任？"],["陳次長彥伯：代理。"],["陳委員雪生：高鐵董事長有沒有出什麼差錯？他從總經理升任董事長還沒有多久的時間，現在你又把他調到臺鐵。"],["陳次長彥伯：高鐵的鄭董事長也做得很好。"],["陳委員雪生：做得很好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員雪生：做得很好所以要調走？"],["陳次長彥伯：不是，就是做得很好，至於新職位的異動，我相信他也會做得很好。"],["陳委員雪生：我都已經是好幾任的立委了，高鐵從快垮了、快倒了，然後民營化地來做財務結構的處理，當然鄭董事長原來是長榮航空的董事長，他是從那邊轉調過來，說真的，他是很標準的CEO，他今天把高鐵弄起來了，你們是要把高鐵弄垮嗎？畢竟人家有經驗，但是你派了一個文化部部長，改天勞動部部長也可以去幹這個高鐵董事長，可以嗎？都通才嗎？執政黨下面所有的人全部都是通才？幹哪一個部會都可以嘛，是不是？改天國防部顧部長會改調教育部部長也不一定，是不是這樣？用人唯才不是這樣子搞法的。我對每個人都沒有意見，但是臺鐵出了很多狀況，誰到臺鐵誰倒楣，當初杜微董事長當局長的時候，我問他：「你準備幹到幾歲？」，他說：「我要幹到退休為止」，果不其然，他幹到退休就不幹了。臺鐵局長一年換3個，還要被抓去坐牢耶！是不是？你看看，之前的次長還被送到監察院彈劾，怎麼這樣子呢？相關人事任用是誰提報的，是你們部長提報的？還是行政院建議的？你知道整個流程嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：據我的瞭解，整個人事的任用都有一定的制度和程序，我們都是依照那樣的制度和程序來做處理。"],["陳委員雪生：不過我們來看，文化部部長跑去幹高鐵董事長，我會注意看，看他幹得怎麼樣，沒有這個道理嘛！是不是？伍局長，你表現得很好，我沒有看到你出什麼差錯啊！但是你突然又被換下來了，我是覺得滿遺憾的。好好的一個公司，他做得很好，那就讓他繼續做嘛！對不對？像是臺鐵便當賣得很好，高鐵鄭董事長來了之後就有樣學樣，學臺鐵賣便當，臺鐵的便當很出名、很知名，我每次在交通委員會，其他的便當我還不想吃呢！我都說我要吃臺鐵的便當，伍代理董事長請回。","另外，公路局陳文瑞局長請上臺一下。南北竿跨海大橋，也就是馬祖大橋，我在總質詢的時候曾經有提到，因為院長提出要三百多億元，是不是？三百八十幾億元嘛！世曦的是二百多億元嘛！288億元嘛！"],["陳局長文瑞：對，288億元。"],["陳委員雪生：英商提供的是說要三百多億元，你們相信英商的，法國那個還講五百多億元呢！是不是？你到底聽誰的啊？我也曾經講過你們要找世曦再重新計算，因為工材都漲了嘛！你們這個動作做了沒有？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為當初報院的時候，院有提到後續的部分有涉及到民航，就是北竿機場改建的部分，因為國發會……"],["陳委員雪生：我現在沒有提這個哦！"],["陳局長文瑞：對，國發會的那個報告……"],["陳委員雪生：當然它和北竿機場有關連，我知道。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，我現在是講它的造價到底要多少？我要你們去函給世曦，請世曦重新計算一下，我有質詢，你們也說好，但是到現在，我今天不問的話又沒有下文了，無聲無息，可以這樣嗎？你今天重新答復我一次，你們要不要去函給世曦，叫它重新算一下？"],["陳局長文瑞：經費的部分，就是說它本來就是跟各期的貨幣價值有關係，所以這個部分我們會再跟世曦做進一步的討論。"],["陳委員雪生：我跟你講，這個橋做了可行性評估，也做了綜合計畫，花了一億多元，現在你讓它躺在那邊睡覺幹什麼？行政院秘書處的評估我看到了，國發會的評估我看到了，這跟北竿機場有關連，我也看到了，但是我現在要你們核算一下，因為院長講要三百多億元，但是世曦是講二百多億元，到底要聽誰的啊？世曦有經過細設、精算的，英商哪裡有精算？它都是用嘴巴、打嘴炮啊！所以你們不要把我講的話、你在立法院對我的承諾，然後你們私底下就不繼續做了，你們1個月內能不能夠答復我你們的公函發出去了沒有？你們的公函副本給我好了，因為你要它重新計算不是1個月就能夠完成的，你們花點小錢嘛！你們起碼要讓院長知道馬祖大橋現階段到底需要多少錢。有政治的問題嗎？沒有嘛！有預算的問題嗎？也沒有嘛！預算的問題在財政上可能會有一點壓力；那有技術性的問題嗎？技術性的問題也排除了嘛！英商也排除了嘛！是不是？那剩下的經費問題，我也同意我們延後再來考量，那你現在最起碼要給世曦公文啊！好不好？局長你請回，你同意嘛！公文副本請給我，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳委員雪生：次長，上次部長提到70歲以上……因為78歲的駕駛者在三峽那邊發生車禍，然後你們要對70歲以上的駕駛者加嚴換照，我有說我也是受害者，我有提到嘛！你們的修法動作開始做了沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，原則上我們是提出要提高高齡者的安全駕駛，至於相關的內容提出來以後，我們有對外說明會在3個月內提出相關的配套措施，這部分我們正在做處理。"],["陳委員雪生：我上次主要的質詢內容是希望你們注意體格的問題、體能的問題，還有認知功能的測驗，你們怎麼老是拿78歲來開刀呢？65歲也有發生重大車禍，那65歲也要？45歲也發生重大車禍，那45歲也要來處理囉？沒有道理嘛！所以你們修法的時候，你們的修法版本還沒有出來，你修法時要有這樣的認知，好不好？要不然就是你們的腦袋有問題，不是我的腦袋有問題。"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上我們會對有風險或是高風險的駕駛人制定一套相關的處理機制。"],["陳委員雪生：這個修法時要注意一下，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會朝這個方向來做處理。"],["陳委員雪生：還有這一次道交條例裡面有扯到噪音的問題，我有看到很多委員的提案，噪音車的罰款從原來900元到上限1,800元，調整一倍，從1,800漲到3,600，你認為對噪音有嚇阻作用嗎？能夠改這個的人都很有錢，他們有專門的地方，那個噪音嚇死人耶！我還以為出車禍。他們很像不是爸爸媽媽生的啊！車子衝出去以後，那種速度，會出重大車禍的耶！你們應該把這個標準再提高，你一定要遏阻，我跟你講，你不遏阻的話，街頭到處都是，尤其是三更半夜，到處都是，你們怎麼抓？你叫警察去抓嗎？你就開槍打他啦！我跟你講，不然他不會停的，你的速度沒有他的快嘛，這個方向你們也要去想一下，噪音車的問題，你抓不到他的，除非你抓他的摩托車，你用BMW追他，才追得上，現在噪音車都很高檔，都是雙B的耶！是不是？你回答我一下。"],["林司長福山：這個部分，我跟委員報告一下，剛剛委員提到的確實是一個重點，在處罰條例裡面，排氣管這個部分只是一個硬體的裝置，但是產生噪音的部分，還是要回歸到噪音管制法的部分，所以有關於噪音管制法的處罰規定，我們會來建議環境部，因為像空污法裡面都有吊銷牌照這些相關的部分，我們會再來建議。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要找環保署來測，等人到了，那個車子都已經到哪裡了，你們到臺北，他已經開到臺東了。"],["林司長福山：現在都有自動測噪音的科學儀器。"],["陳委員雪生：好。還有另外一個就是檢舉，檢舉人去檢舉，只是徒增警察的人力嘛，500萬人檢舉，有500萬件，那麼警察就是派500萬人在那邊現場開單嘛，是不是？現在檢舉人制度也要取消了，我們上次修法的時候把它取消了，現在又來了，檢舉人透過打110，打電話去分局、打電話去派出所，派出所跟分局要回報110，這個問題還存在啊，還是一樣的啊。我也聽說有些人認為檢舉人制度應該要存在，你看警察，現在你們去看看，任何一個基層警察有配戴一條腰帶，腰帶上繫有電話、手機、槍、子彈，整排都是，他們還算有腰，要是我的話，整條褲子要掉下去了，那個重量是多重你知道嗎？在檢舉人制度的部分，你們也要檢討一下，好不好？其他大概沒什麼事啦，尤其高鐵的事情，我是覺得隨便換人是沒道理的，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。","現在請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra 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人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162460","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c925a9fa7075dc715c8c2a0f21558b58c3dea46edf933af68045705032a5a81be55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:01:56 - 12:10:46","影片長度":"00:08:50","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T12:01:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:10:46+08:00","duration":530,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.06784375,"end":8.333468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.856593750000002,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.476593750000003,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.293468750000002,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.824718750000002,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.938468750000002,"end":25.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.782218750000002,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.157218750000002,"end":30.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.300343750000003,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.25784375,"end":35.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.58659375,"end":37.088468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.227843750000005,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.290968750000005,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.64096875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.90659375,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.20159375,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.74971875,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.078468750000006,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.12909375,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.96784375,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.23221875,"end":67.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.15534375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.46659375,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.71096875,"end":79.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.27596875,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.51159375,"end":83.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.99659375,"end":86.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.48159375,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.01721875000001,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.37471875,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.68471875,"end":113.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.27471875,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.55284375000001,"end":120.48471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.72096875000001,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.88096875000001,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.68221875,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.75346875,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.35596875000002,"end":150.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.65721875,"end":152.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.90159375000002,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.85909375,"end":157.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.76971875,"end":160.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.08596875,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.36846875,"end":164.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.91659375,"end":167.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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我們請伍次長好 請伍次長委員好 次長好 抱歉 跟你交付任務因為我剛才說台鐵董事長"},{"start":34.286,"end":52.072,"text":"我今天有看到文所以很快市長就沒有兼台鐵董事長了吧但是我還是交通隊的議員所以台鐵的事情我還是會協助因為新的董事長來我不知道他會不會延續舊的政策啦"},{"start":53.192,"end":75.623,"text":"所以我還是要拜託那個次長我們代理董事長我們鳳山車站的問題我一直非常的關心是所以我們看鳳山車站其實目前當然招標一直都沒有順利然後我看他的時程是6月26日第三次招商截止收件所以時間也快了"},{"start":76.864,"end":93.563,"text":"那台鐵總經理跟次長也都跟我提過說如果是分段分段招標有沒有可能分期分區招標有沒有可能那我也跟次長表達過就是說"},{"start":95.424,"end":124.464,"text":"第一個就是電影院一定要有第二個就是說時間上就是說你要確定可以飆得出去的話在第一期就有電影院這個部分我還可以接受啦但是呢其實我在分析就是說6月26這個如果是有人來招來領或者是有人來投標可能就機會比較大一點啦"},{"start":125.869,"end":127.018,"text":"如果萬一沒有人來臨"},{"start":129.04,"end":157.109,"text":"當然他不會來領政完的嘛 對不對如果有機會分期分區那第一期就是照我的我們之前給選民的承諾給台鐵的要求這個部分都有如期如這樣子的方向可以完成的話那是最好但是如果沒有的話萬一沒有的話我是強烈建立就是一加一啦"},{"start":159.81,"end":182.634,"text":"我希望這個不要再三心兩意了啦因為你時間拖越久就越難決定啦那我看台北車站是7月267月26還有一個月的時間所以是不是這個公告有機會可以變更或者是補充公告"},{"start":184.18,"end":211.214,"text":"這個部分事實上我們在看法規上是沒有問題啦但是交通部跟鐵路局也沒有可能做這樣子的決定我覺得這個是一個很重要的承諾要不然我每一次都等台鐵已經三次跟我說沒問題了這等下去真的是遙遙無期會被人家笑說你蓋得那麼漂亮變成文字館所以這個部分是不是"},{"start":212.83,"end":233.45,"text":"我們的次長跟總經理可以在這邊給我一個比較明確的答覆我想我跟那個召委報告啦齁剛剛講大概兩個方向第一個就是剛剛委員提到說一加一的問題嘛一加一的問題其實我們去問過財政部初參司初參司他兩個合併的時候他那個程序要重來"},{"start":234.531,"end":256.19,"text":"所以重來時間 我們這個已經跟他確認過這是第一個 會重來時間比較久一點當然這是我們的也是幫案之一第二個就是我們提到的分區分區分區分區分區對 這部分我們現在這部分已經在研擬我們現在暫不先不管6月26號的事情這個部分我們現在在研擬"},{"start":257.071,"end":281.393,"text":"那剛提到的第一期一定要有電影院的部分這個我們一定會這樣炒作方式來做然後我們現在在把這些信息來寫在場上我現在是要跟次長跟總經理報告就是說分期分期如果626沒有那分期分期是不是一再規劃我們現在就在已經在研擬了"},{"start":282.742,"end":307.276,"text":"不是啊 你現在626如果沒有 你就要趕快設方案我已經聽了三次說 沒問題 有信心 沒有沒問題 有信心 沒有這一次626是第三次了喔對 626這一次看起來 我看我覺得應該是不樂觀啦 沒有錯所以我是要求同仁剛剛講的對 那你626如果沒有的話你現在再來規劃分期分區"},{"start":308.41,"end":316.472,"text":"要規劃到什麼時候這個比較單純這個比較單純我覺得 坦白講 次長 我一直覺得說單純 理想上是都沒問題啦但是我要看到務實的狀況真的是有效啦"},{"start":327.355,"end":352.75,"text":"那你今天 其實台北車站跟鳳山車站 坦白講鳳山車站即使是分期分區啦 它還是要花建設的成本所以對廠商來講 它要去OT 要再開久一點其實 然後之前的問題 他們在考慮到它整個商圈周遭包括拉拉炮等等的這些問題 讓它做一併考量"},{"start":354.21,"end":379.233,"text":"譬如說我還是不敢抱得太樂觀的態度啦所以我是認為說其實你如果是一加一是最快啦說實在台北車頭一定賺錢嘛我鳳山車頭有可能前陣子要倒租其實是有願景的 譬如說以前我三井拉拉破如果合作會其實它可以互相拉抬的但是初期會比較辛苦"},{"start":381.012,"end":406.152,"text":"所以就是說我認為說有時候這個是決策決策的果斷性跟前瞻性啦就是說我如果今天如果是26 626沒有結果的話我如果快刀斬亂嘛我就是果斷一點我就是決定1加1我相信台北車站一定有人會去標啦台北車道不可能沒人要標嘛"},{"start":407.725,"end":410.951,"text":"台北請教導 國防省請教導1加1就一定飆得出去嘛你用邏輯來思考其他的細節 台鐵說要再拚國1加1要拚國兩年 要廢話的"},{"start":421.816,"end":445.443,"text":"所以我是認為說這個其實在邏輯上就可以做這樣子的思考我在台北城市一定探訪一定有人來標這個邏輯沒問題吧是那鳳山1加1跟台北山1加1在鳳山坦白講初期因為他還要建設因為你一直說之前你BOTB跟OT的觀念沒有連接在一起對所以才會造成現在的問題是"},{"start":446.983,"end":463.294,"text":"那你現在如果叫新的廠商來標雖然是分期分區但是他還是要初期還是要做建設嘛要開過來用嘛所以坦白講我是真的是沒那麼樂觀啦所以我要拜託市長"},{"start":465.543,"end":487.732,"text":"董事長跟總經理跟未來的董事長就說我站在紅色車頭的角度你跟我一加一我應該是保證表的處理而且假設就是知名品牌的會來飆台北車站的基本上應該都是比較知名的品牌知名的品牌可以在台北車頭還可以在我們紅色車頭 我覺得這很好"},{"start":491.328,"end":512.522,"text":"所以我是強烈建議就是次長跟總經理甚至未來的董事長我不知道什麼時候要進來但是我為什麼特別請吳次長就是說代替跟外當署長也是你要幫忙監管的嘛對不對是所以就是說我希望先在你一個人的胸口三個和尚沒水盒這個和尚就讓吳次長來擔啦"},{"start":517.116,"end":528.532,"text":"好不好好所以我就說6265真的沒有的話我覺得真的是1加1就趕快快到漲到馬就果斷決定好不好好好謝謝市長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":785,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時2分）謝謝主席。請伍次長。"],["主席：請伍次長。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：次長好！不好意思，又要交付您任務，因為我們看到報載臺鐵的新董事長已經決定了嘛！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我今天有看到文。"],["許委員智傑：對，所以很快地，次長就不會再兼任臺鐵董事長了。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：但是我還是交通隊的一員，所以臺鐵的事情我還是會協助。"],["許委員智傑：當然，因為新的董事長來了之後，我不知道他會不會延續舊的政策，所以我還是要拜託次長、代理董事長，我們鳳山車站的問題，我一直都非常的關心，其實目前鳳山車站招標一直都不順利，我看到它的時程是6月26日第三次招商截止收件，所以時間也快了。臺鐵總經理跟次長也都跟我提過，如果是分段招標有沒有可能？就是分期、分區招標有沒有可能？我也跟次長表達過，第一個，一定要有電影院；第二個，如果時間上確定可以標得出去的話，第一期就要有電影院的這個部分，我還可以接受。但是我再分析，如果6月26日有人來領標或是有人來投標，那機會可能就比較大一點，萬一沒有人來領標，當然他不會來領著玩，對不對？如果有機會分期、分區，那第一期就是照我們之前給選民的承諾和對臺鐵的要求，如果這個部分都有如期、如這樣的方向完成的話，那是最好的。但是如果沒有的話、萬一沒有的話，我是強烈建議「1+1」啦！我希望這個不要再三心二意了啦！因為時間拖越久，你就越難決定。","我看臺北車站是7月26日，距離現在還有1個月的時間，所以這個公告是不是有機會可以變更？或者是補充公告？事實上，這個部分法規上是沒有問題啦！但是交通部跟鐵路局有沒有可能做這樣子的決定？我覺得這是很重要的承諾，要不然我一直在等，臺鐵已經3次跟我說沒有問題了，這個再等下去真的是遙遙無期，會被人家笑說你車站蓋得那麼漂亮，結果變成蚊子館。所以這個部分，次長跟總經理是不是可以在這邊給我一個比較明確的答復？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是，我跟召委報告，剛才講這大概有兩個方向：第一個就是剛才委員有提到的「1+1」的問題，其實「1+1」的問題我們有去問過財政部促參司，促參司說2個合併的時候，那個程序就要重來，這個部分我們已經跟它確認過，這是第一個，重來時間就會比較久一點，當然這也是我們的方案之一；第二個就是我們提到的分期、分區這樣的概念。"],["許委員智傑：分期、分區。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對，現在這部分已經在研擬，我們先不管6月26日的事情，這個部分我們現在正在研擬。剛才提到第一期一定要有電影院的這個部分，這個我們一定會朝這樣的方式來做，我們現在也在協調這些訊息……"],["許委員智傑：這些原則上都OK！我現在要跟次長和總經理報告的是，如果626沒有，那分期、分區是不是就要再規劃？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我們現在已經在研擬了。"],["許委員智傑：不是，如果626沒有，你就要趕快設方案，我已經聽了3次，你們說：「沒問題，有信心！」結果卻沒有，第二次又說：「沒問題，有信心！」結果又沒有，這次626是第三次了哦！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對，6月26日我看起來應該是不樂觀，沒有錯，所以我現在要求同仁，就是剛才講的分區、分期的部分……"],["許委員智傑：對，如果626沒有的話，你才要來規劃分期、分區，那要規劃到什麼時候？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：不會，這個比較單純。"],["許委員智傑：坦白講，次長，我一直覺得理想上是都沒有問題，但是我要看到務實的狀況真的是有效。其實臺北車站跟鳳山車站，坦白講鳳山車站即使是分期、分區，它還是要花建設的成本，所以這對廠商來講，它要OT還要花好幾億元；然後之前的問題，他們還要考慮到整個商圈周遭，包括LaLaport等等的這些問題，他們都要一併來考量，坦白說我還是不敢抱太樂觀的態度，所以我認為其實「1+1」是最快的。說實在的，臺北車站一定是賺錢的，我們鳳山車站前面有可能要投資，但其實這是有願景的，坦白說如果它跟三井LaLaport合在一起，其實是可以互相拉抬的，但是初期會比較辛苦，所以我認為有時候這是決策的果斷性跟前瞻性，如果626沒有結果的話，我就快刀斬亂麻，就果斷一點決定「1+1」，我相信臺北車站一定會有人投標。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對。"],["許委員智傑：臺北車站不可能沒有人投標，臺北車站加鳳山車站、「1+1」，那就一定標得出去，你用邏輯來思考。其他的細節，臺鐵跟我說還要評估，「1+1」要評估2年，我火都熄了，所以我認為其實這在邏輯上就可以做這樣的思考，就是標下臺北車站一定賺錢，一定會有人來投標，這個邏輯沒問題吧！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["許委員智傑：鳳山車站跟臺北車站「1+1」，坦白講鳳山車站初期還要建設，我一直在講，之前BOT中「B」跟「OT」的觀念沒有連接在一起，所以才會造成現在的問題。現在新的廠商來投標，雖然是分期、分區，但是它初期還是要做建設嘛！要花好幾億元嘛！所以坦白講，我真的沒有那麼樂觀，所以我要拜託次長、董事長、總經理跟未來的董事長，站在鳳山車站的角度，你用「1+1」，我保證它標得出去，而且假設是知名品牌來標，會來投標臺北車站的基本上應該都是比較知名的品牌，知名品牌可以經營臺北車站和我們鳳山車站，我覺得這樣很好。所以我強烈建議，次長、總經理，甚至是未來的董事長，雖然我不知道他什麼時候要進來，為什麼我要特別請伍次長，因為臺鐵換新的董事長也是你要幫忙監管的，對不對？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["許委員智傑：我先將希望放在你一個人身上，3個和尚沒水喝，這個和尚就讓伍次長來擔啦！好不好？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：好。"],["許委員智傑：如果626真的沒有的話，我覺得就趕快快刀斬亂麻，「1+1」就果斷決定了，好不好？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：好。"],["許委員智傑：好嗎？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：好。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝次長。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑召委。","請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra 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人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9cd013f0f3d72aafa8c2a0f21558b58c3dea46edf933af6803ab31a2dbb756f7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:52:31 - 12:01:45","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T11:52:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T12:01:45+08:00","duration":554,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.46096875,"end":5.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.75159375,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.450968750000001,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.88909375,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.824718750000002,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.258468750000002,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.235343750000006,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.610343750000006,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.85909375,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.44909375,"end":51.837218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.955343750000004,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.71784375,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.69909375,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.33159375000001,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.34409375,"end":75.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.42409375000001,"end":77.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.04846875,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.00096875,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.09159375,"end":101.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.41596875,"end":103.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.86284375000001,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.52096875000001,"end":105.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.57159375,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.70596875000001,"end":108.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.81409375000001,"end":119.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.38784375,"end":148.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.43846875000001,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.00721875,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.67284375,"end":131.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.42971875,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.87659375,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.57346875000002,"end":176.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.23971875,"end":178.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.77096875,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.59784375,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.06971875000002,"end":191.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.59596875000003,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.57471875000002,"end":195.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.59534375,"end":197.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.55721875,"end":198.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.97034375,"end":199.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.42596875,"end":201.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.95721875,"end":211.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.29346875000002,"end":212.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.99346875,"end":215.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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這將近是去年一整年的查獲數那由於刑法的修法還有上次煙彈的氾濫嘛那獨駕的查獲數也暴增那同時他也是道路上的不定時炸彈那次長您對於遠景的查緝獨駕的流程您清楚嗎"},{"start":177.159,"end":197.447,"text":"也請市長您同時了解報告委員原則上我們查到開車有可疑的情形原警會依照我們的標準作業程序來攔查第一個就是說車上有毒品的是一種狀況所以就是你們盤查的對象盤查對象那什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":201.977,"end":228.969,"text":"就是他這個等於是開車有這個左晃右晃啊危險的這種情境這個就是所以警察會把他攔下來進行盤查那接下來呢有可疑事實那接下來如果車上有毒品的話我們毒品就要送驗然後依照毒品違法防止條例送送法辦那尿液如果說他坦承了啦那當然就刑法185會加上185的危險"},{"start":232.831,"end":253.731,"text":"駕駛那另外那個尿液跟毒品送驗呈現陽性倒交條例再加上去倒交條例35條所以你們會看車上有沒有發現毒品那如果有發現毒品的話就是馬上就是會馬上就現行犯就是現行犯如果他拒絕拒絕尿檢呢拒絕採尿呢"},{"start":254.972,"end":279.353,"text":"今天採尿我們要報檢察官你們要報檢察官然後再由檢察官來做偵辦是那人和車的部分呢你們會怎麼來做處理人和車的部分一個是移送法院嘛那如果沒有發現毒品只是他開車這樣很危險一定還要再驗尿之後那車輛的部分當下會怎麼做處理"},{"start":284.124,"end":288.038,"text":"車輛會 車輛要看狀況欸車輛要如果是毒品的話你們繼續讓他上路嗎"},{"start":289.343,"end":316.975,"text":"不是 如果是獨駕的話就要一致保管如果不是獨駕裡面沒有等於是他沒有承認啦我們只能採訪所以這樣子聽下來不管怎麼樣都是要做尿檢嗎對沒有錯 那今年1到4月5剛剛本席有提到案件數是1755件那這1到4月移送了1755件他是獨駕一公共危險罪處理那只有1000 但舉發數還有"},{"start":320.377,"end":345.913,"text":"1141件他依道路交通管理處罰條例取發那換句話說沒有取發的是35%完全沒有開罰單沒有辦法取發 次長您知道為什麼嗎我回答可以嗎因為這個可以分成兩個部分第一個就是說他還在檢驗當中還沒有出來這個因為他有我們的尿液送驗喔還是要有一個流程要送檢驗機關去驗那驗出來"},{"start":348.632,"end":359.16,"text":"第一個是驗出來他沒有達到陽性的反應如果有 當然就會就用道家條例開罰嘛道家條例第90條的規定 兩個月那童年藥力檢測他最快什麼時候可以提出報告"},{"start":372.229,"end":393.343,"text":"最快多久可以提出報告我們剛剛算了一下最快大概要一個多月最快要一個多月那最慢呢不是要跟委員報告吼這個尿液送驗吼還有很多的關鍵因素我這邊是問時間嘛那最快跟最慢啊因為還要看檢驗機構的量能啊那現在量能足夠嗎一個多兩個月是不夠的兩個月是不夠的那我們可不可以來提出修法"},{"start":400.612,"end":419.648,"text":"我們警政署是建議修法有報文給交通部我們有建議修法是從那個毒品所以今天我們碰到一個問題就是沒有舉發就沒有辦法吊扣駕照所以讓很多獨駕犯他繼續持有駕照繼續上路繼續危害民眾的安全現在的情況是這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":420.407,"end":436.468,"text":"包委員我們有一個解決的方式就是說我們的尿液送驗驗完那個當下才算期間開始算因為他行為開始之後我們根本還沒辦法確定說我現在不跟你討論尿液那今年警政署有沒有"},{"start":437.93,"end":458.075,"text":"有沒有發函給交通部我們發函我想我跟護委員做說明啦這委員特別提到的這個有關處罰條例94條警政署今年5月9號發函給交通部做詢問請問部長交通部有收到嗎交通部跟警政署溝通了嗎"},{"start":458.855,"end":484.353,"text":"我們有溝通 目前進度到哪裡所以這個禮拜會回應是嗎我們剛過來我們這禮拜會合幅給這個檢控署依據來辦理那交通部有沒有要提出修法延長舉發期呢兩個月是不夠了我們剛也聽到組長的回答我們會再提出修法嗎在現行的規定我們就可以來做解釋對因為他這個裡頭的相關的條文裡頭有一個行政檢討不是你知道獨家目前罰多少嗎"},{"start":486.118,"end":511.533,"text":"他是比照酒駕在中 比照酒駕稅是多少錢?汽機車分開 汽機車分開分別是多少錢?汽車的部分是這個應該是9到12萬然後機車的部分 機車是1.5萬到9萬 汽車是3萬到12萬那根據台北市交通裁決所3月公告資料顯示有一名累價 獨犯的獨駕的累犯 張姓累犯他曾經被抓到8次 連續8次獨駕 罰款累計264萬"},{"start":517.079,"end":518.119,"text":"你們知道嗎那請問這樣的罰則對於獨駕者有效果嗎"},{"start":538.268,"end":553.581,"text":"交通部作為全國大陸最高的主管 希望交通部不要再觀望了如果不繳的話其實有相關後續的一個程序的處理也請交通部盡快有警政署的意義尤其有兩百多萬的這個我相信相關的處理是一個很大的一個目標 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":693,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時52分）謝謝主席。主席，請政務次長陳次長。"],["主席：交通部陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：次長好。次長，我們先來看，去年新北及新竹3起毒駕重大車禍震驚社會，不只造成民眾死傷，更有兩名警務人員殉職，3起毒駕的這3名肇事者皆涉及俗稱喪屍煙彈的二級毒品依托咪酯，這類毒品會導致沒有辦法思考、喪失意識而且行動沒有辦法控制，吸食者猶如行屍走肉，卻還有駕駛吸食後上路，已經嚴重影響到民眾的生命財產安全，所以本席今天就毒駕的問題來就教次長。","根據警政署的資料，毒駕的查獲件數從110年的43件一路飆升到113年的2,619件，3年間暴增了將近50倍，而且113年的時候創下新高紀錄，請問次長，毒駕查緝創新高的原因是為什麼？"],["陳組長明志：委員，是不是我來回答？我是警政署交通組組長。"],["邱委員若華：好，組長，沒問題。"],["陳組長明志：毒駕創新高的原因是因為毒品的氾濫，原本在112年年底的時候，當時喪屍煙彈等於是新興的毒品，那時候還沒有上升，而且管制的時候是用三級毒品、四級毒品來列管，後來毒品危害防制條例把它提升為……"],["邱委員若華：是，組長，我們知道在112年12月的時候有修法，刑法第一百八十五條之三明定毒駕比照酒駕處理，只要他的檢測濃度達標就可以處罰，不需要再舉證他具體的危險行為，沒有錯吧？"],["陳組長明志：對。"],["邱委員若華：您剛剛也提到去年8月的時候，行政院才將喪屍煙彈依托咪酯（Etomidate）列為三級毒品，到了11月又把它升級為二級毒品，沒錯哦？"],["陳組長明志：是。"],["邱委員若華：我們看到警政署這邊也有提供資料，113年全年有2,619件，從1月到7月有541件，8月到12月暴增到2,078件，我們可以看到它有多氾濫。今年1月到4月份的毒駕我們查獲到1,755件，這將近是去年一整年的查獲數，由於刑法的修法，還有喪屍煙彈的氾濫，毒駕的查獲數暴增，同時他也是道路上的不定時炸彈，次長，對於員警查緝毒駕的流程您清楚嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這恐怕牽涉到查緝的事務，是不是請警政署來說明？"],["邱委員若華：好，也請次長您同時瞭解。"],["陳組長明志：報告委員，原則上我們查到開車有可疑的情形，員警會依照標準作業程序來攔查，第一個就是車上有毒品，這是一種狀況；第二種就是……"],["邱委員若華：這種狀況就是你們盤查的對象嘛？"],["陳組長明志：對。"],["邱委員若華：盤查的對象有什麼樣的狀況？"],["陳組長明志：就是他開車有左晃右晃、危險的這種情境，這個就是有可疑……"],["邱委員若華：所以警察會把他攔下來進行盤查，那接下來呢？"],["陳組長明志：這就是有可疑事實，接下來如果車上有毒品的話，毒品就要送驗，然後依照毒品危害防制條例送法辦，如果說他坦承了，當然會加上刑法第一百八十五條的危險駕駛；另外，尿液跟毒品送驗呈現陽性，道交條例再加上去，道交條例第三十五條。"],["邱委員若華：是，所以你們會看車上有沒有發現毒品，如果有發現毒品的話，馬上就會……"],["陳組長明志：馬上就是現行犯。"],["邱委員若華：就是現行犯，如果他拒絕尿檢呢？拒絕採尿呢？"],["陳組長明志：拒絕採尿我們要報檢察官。"],["邱委員若華：你們要報檢察官，然後再由檢察官來指揮做偵辦。"],["陳組長明志：是，開檢驗的……"],["邱委員若華：那人和車的部分呢？你們會怎麼來做處理？"],["陳組長明志：人和車的部分，一個是移送法院嘛！如果沒有發現毒品，只是他這樣開車很危險，一定還要再驗尿，之後有……"],["邱委員若華：是，那車輛的部分當下會怎麼做處理？"],["陳組長明志：車輛要看狀況，如果是毒品的話……"],["邱委員若華：你們繼續讓他上路嗎？"],["陳組長明志：不是，如果是毒駕的話就要移置保管，如果不是毒駕，等於是他沒有承認，我們只能採尿送……"],["邱委員若華：所以這樣子聽下來，不管怎麼樣都是要做尿檢嘛？"],["陳組長明志：對。"],["邱委員若華：好，沒有錯。剛剛本席有提到，今年1到4月案件數是1,755件，1到4月移送了1,755件，是毒駕依公共危險罪處理，但舉發數有1,141件是依道路交通管理處罰條例舉發，換句話說，沒有舉發的是35%，完全沒有開罰單，沒有辦法舉發，次長，您知道為什麼嗎？"],["陳組長明志：我來回答可以嗎？這可以分成兩個部分，第一個就是他還在檢驗當中，還沒有驗出來，因為我們的尿液送驗還是要有一個流程，要送檢驗機關去驗，那驗出來看他有沒有達到陽性的反應，如果有，當然就會開……"],["邱委員若華：舉發期是多久？"],["陳組長明志：就用道交條例開罰。如果……"],["邱委員若華：是，舉發期是多久？道交條例第九十條的規定……"],["陳組長明志：兩個月。"],["邱委員若華：兩個月。"],["陳組長明志：有些回來可能超過……"],["邱委員若華：毒品尿液檢測最快什麼時候可以提出報告？"],["陳組長明志：依照那個流程送驗，比如說……"],["邱委員若華：最快多久可以提出報告？"],["陳組長明志：我們算了一下，最快大概要一個多月。"],["邱委員若華：最快要一個多月，最慢呢？"],["陳組長明志：不是，要跟委員報告，尿液送驗還有很多的關鍵因素……"],["邱委員若華：我這邊是問時間嘛！最快跟最慢啊！"],["陳組長明志：因為還要看檢驗機構的量能，還有它能夠……"],["邱委員若華：現在量能足夠嗎？"],["陳組長明志：兩個月是不夠的。"],["邱委員若華：兩個月是不夠的，那我們可不可以提出修法？"],["陳組長明志：警政署是建議修法，有報文給交通部，我們有建議修法，是從毒品那個尿液……"],["邱委員若華：所以今天我們碰到一個問題嘛！就是沒有舉發就沒有辦法吊扣駕照，所以讓很多毒駕犯繼續持有駕照、繼續上路、繼續危害民眾的安全，現在的情況是這樣，沒有錯吧？"],["陳組長明志：報告委員，我們有一個解決的方式，就是說我們的尿液送驗，驗完那個當下才算期間開始，因為他的行為開始之後，我們根本還沒辦法確定他的行為……"],["邱委員若華：組長，我現在不跟你討論尿驗。今年警政署有沒有發函給交通部？"],["陳組長明志：我們發函……"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員做說明，委員特別提到的處罰條例第九十四條……"],["邱委員若華：警政署今年5月9日有發函給交通部做詢問，請問次長，交通部有收到嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想剛才……"],["邱委員若華：交通部跟警政署溝通了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們有溝通。"],["邱委員若華：目前進度到哪裡了？"],["陳次長彥伯：剛才有特別的提到這個禮拜會做一個處理。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，這個有溝通了，然後警政署……"],["邱委員若華：所以這個禮拜會回應是嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是、是、是。"],["林司長福山：這個文剛過來，這個禮拜我們會核復給警政署依據來辦理。"],["邱委員若華：那交通部有沒有要提出修法延長舉發期呢？2個月是不夠的，剛才我們也聽到了組長的回答，會再提出修法嘛！"],["林司長福山：這個由現行的規定我們就可以來做解釋。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，因為相關條文中有一個行政解釋……"],["邱委員若華：次長，你知道毒駕目前罰多少嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：它是比照酒駕在罰。"],["邱委員若華：比照酒駕，所以是多少錢？"],["林司長福山：汽、機車分開。"],["邱委員若華：汽、機車分開，那分別是多少錢？"],["林司長福山：汽車的部分應該是9萬元到12萬元；然後機車的部分……"],["邱委員若華：機車是1萬5,000元到9萬元；汽車是3萬元到12萬元。根據臺北市交通裁決所3月所公告的資料顯示，有一名張姓的毒駕累犯，他曾經被抓到連續8次毒駕，罰鍰累積264萬元，你們知道嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這是個案，這是臺北市裁決所的……"],["邱委員若華：那請問這樣的罰責對於毒駕者有效果嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：如果相關的……"],["邱委員若華：交通部作為全國道路最高的主管機關，希望交通部不要再觀望了。"],["陳次長彥伯：我先跟委員報告一下，如果他不繳的話，其實後續會有相關的程序來處理，行政執行署……"],["邱委員若華：但也請交通部儘快與警政署研議。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，因為已經有罰鍰二百多萬元，我相信相關的處理是一個很大的目標。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員的質詢。","現在請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c90dfa0c7eb6208120b4fab53e924c0ec1dea46edf933af68094a7d0e73f209c415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:42:22 - 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楊潔瑜發言 邀請我們部長陳部長"},{"start":14.65,"end":17.351,"text":"部長好我想面對於整個氣候變遷跟極端災害的頻率上升那麼我們努力的也就是農業保險條例這個對我們農民來講是非常的重要因為剛剛所說的這兩項因素"},{"start":33.178,"end":58.197,"text":"對於整個農業經營的風險是日益的在升高那所以我們的農業保險制度呢應該是要保障我們農民的所得穩定農業經濟的一個重要的一個政策工具但是我們看到目前為止似乎在整個執行的情形不如我們預期那又因為這樣的因素所以我也統計到112年底我們自願性投保的農民僅佔了6.1%"},{"start":62.981,"end":68.562,"text":"17%漁業 漁產跟農作物的覆蓋率甚至是達到2.13跟2.8那都基於3當然在去年度113年我們不斷的在調整方案113年度那是有增加的但是我們仍舊認為在這樣的風險高風險的因子當中我認為我們還有很大的一個成長空間"},{"start":90.067,"end":93.93,"text":"那所以今天我們的召委我們也跟著一起來提案也就是怎麼樣在思緒怎麼樣能夠讓我們的農民更加的得到保障又更加的誘因讓他們可以來參加保險有很多的高經濟的產值的我們的農業比如說我們的這個來養哇 這個產值非常的高但是現在高風險它"},{"start":118.827,"end":144.085,"text":"不掉果 不會掉果啦就掉了 有時候就掉在我們的這個這個 紙包裡頭結果它裡面是因風搖曳而斷掉它到最後沒有辦法得到養分所以到最後 到最後也是沒效的這個果實就壞掉了那所以看到這麼大一顆 可是它竟然是沒有辦法"},{"start":146.065,"end":156.149,"text":"來採收農民的損失非常的大所以我們也提出了也就是我們的農業保險的這個部分在前五年上限75%的協助第六年60%那因應這個整個策略性以及老天爺給我們的一個挑戰"},{"start":164.071,"end":167.836,"text":"以前沒有想過的現在都會發生在這樣的情況之下我們非常的希望能夠把誘因能夠把條件更加的放寬因時因類別而定制所以我希望的也就是行政部門不要一下子"},{"start":182.774,"end":192.143,"text":"就否決委員的提案因為我從早上聽到現在我不希望如此而是希望把這些寶貴的意見來綜合我們所有的條件以因應我們因為氣候變遷極端災害所受損農民的痛苦跟他的收入 請做說明"},{"start":205.255,"end":232.827,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個就是我絕對沒有否定所有委員的版本這第一個要說明的第二個就是說委員的版本裡面那你就要支持啊沒有沒有對不對因為委員的版本裡面第六年百分之六十把它拿掉以後那就有它的不確定性啦不一定是提高喔也可以是零喔因為沒有寫嘛一到五年有寫那原來的六年以後最上限是六十"},{"start":233.587,"end":243.031,"text":"所以要因應實際需求啊所以不受限在60啊你也可以繼續75啊甚至因應特別情況你也可以80啊所以剛剛本期特別說了是因應你的類別跟因應氣候變遷跟極端災害的頻率嘛所以重點是在第二項裡面要求農業部一定要定期的檢討我覺得那個才是重點然後第二個就是說"},{"start":262.078,"end":280.912,"text":"那個我們現在就算一到前面五年是75上限因為法律規定是上限嘛那以農業部來講以農業部來講我們實際在過去五年大概是用二分之一為標準也沒有到上限那我們鼓勵跟地方政府合作那地方政府出太多的"},{"start":281.172,"end":305.279,"text":"這是因為只有二分之一所以你的誘因也沒有那麼多剛開始大家怕怕的所以也沒有宣討的那麼好那現在逐步有一點成績所以這個議題這樣子我希望你們去好好檢討我們整個農業保險制度要怎麼樣去提升頭髮的意願真正能夠保護我們的農民跟他的經濟收益我相信這個共識點"},{"start":307.419,"end":336.451,"text":"部長應該同意吧我跟委員報告就是台中市的部分農業部補二分之一台中市政府補四成所以農民只出一成然後用這種方式也不會違背現在的法律規定現在法律規定只是這是因為我們盧市長他對於農業當非常的關心啊可是你不一定每件事都是如此啊今天是你是農業部是中央啊不能拿一個來比喻啊你比喻其他你比不了啊我告訴你好"},{"start":337.091,"end":341.394,"text":"所以我跟你說 這最重要 你好好去檢討我們的農業保險制度 要怎麼提升這個投保的意願要怎麼可以確保 我們農民的權利跟有經濟收入以因應 我還是回歸最源頭氣候變遷跟極端的災害頻率 好不好 你去研議好 那第二個 本校要請教 視網"},{"start":362.262,"end":390.561,"text":"赤網的部分最近媒體一直在披露宜蘭南方澳的豆腐甲海域它是整個 它是這個三港區但是有一些潛水的教練他們在那裡發覺到了這個問題民眾幫我們發覺政府就要有責任去管控赤網本來就是在2021年的時候我們就已經說了喔赤網實名制 對不對 部長"},{"start":392.813,"end":418.063,"text":"2021年我們就說赤網要實名制你這個網路面前要有一個準確的編號所以萬一發生你才有線索去瞭解這是誰做的啊對不對那現在這個區塊都是什麼 珊瑚耶這珊瑚這麼寶貴耶你這樣去抓 尤其現在又是龍蝦的旺季"},{"start":419.346,"end":433.96,"text":"對不對 那可以嗎那我們政府要怎麼應對 請教這種行為是絕對不允許的絕對不允許我們也加強了這個實名制的查核但是很可惜很遺憾的就是說現在目前"},{"start":435.222,"end":446.349,"text":"包覆在那個珊瑚礁上面的那個赤網齁他並沒有辦法查到他的實名制可能是更早之前的啊所以你的方法不對嘛你既然你明知道有這個問題政府沒有辦法去應對這不是應付應付就可以了這次你要好好去應對你要有方法你查不到那是誰可是誰怎麼放下去你要去找方法啊"},{"start":460.478,"end":485.367,"text":"因為你不能破壞整個珊瑚礁這個是我們聽了心都會痛怎麼辦所以我才會說因為雖然說現在沒辦法查到那個已經覆蓋在珊瑚礁的刺網但是後續我們會針對這邊區域跟地方政府還有跟海巡要去強化就是說任何一個刺網你只要出去的話我先檢查你有沒有實名制再說"},{"start":486.187,"end":504.357,"text":"管控對不對從源頭管控而去落實行動才能夠保住對不對而且這個次網是出去也要回來喔你不能出去以後回來就不見了所以部長你知道嗎你們比如說去年你的次網你查獲得有幾件啊"},{"start":505.748,"end":524.44,"text":"你查會有幾件你前年查會的有幾件去年我們總共查了23件那處分的有13件前年幾件前年是17件 處分是11件部長你聽了會不會心痛你有方法要寫越來越多要不要改變方法"},{"start":525.2,"end":536.711,"text":"對不對前年跟去年增加那你要不要改變方法這個是我們行政部門的責任對不對尤其他又是珊瑚區又是香港區不容許"},{"start":538.018,"end":564.157,"text":"要注意現在是農家的旺季生產旺季可以抓的旺季要趕快去圍堵好啦要有應對方法好不好最後一個議題你把方案給本席齁最後一個議題齁糧食產業全面升級方案就是你在6月10號你們所推動我也給予鼓勵也就是要讓我們地區農會大家都能夠有契作的制度欸對不起這個這個"},{"start":567.339,"end":593.788,"text":"都能夠要有契作的這個制度你強化整個統一栽培管理安全用藥產銷履歷的驗證跟水稻收入的保險機制這個非常重要來提升我們整個稻米的品質跟穩定農民的收益這也是我們一直一直一直在努力的所以在這邊本期要請教因為我們台灣米有夠讚世界讚我們觀光我們的這個品種"},{"start":595.829,"end":619.084,"text":"還有栽培技術跟實惠優勢會加了QQQ 哇 這個是又香這太棒了所以我們外銷的潛力會很多怎麼樣能夠有管道可以讓我們的農民 水稻的農民他們的收益能夠更好到目前為止 你1月份到5月份呢 我可以統計你外銷日本是大概突破7700公噸那是因為"},{"start":621.906,"end":640.374,"text":"那是因為比去年同期增加6倍那是因為日本的米在欠所以米荒所以我們這個時機做對了所以請教部長既然有這樣子的一個方案那我們針對於稻米在外銷的部分你是不是有針對日本不要因為人家米荒"},{"start":641.374,"end":643.677,"text":"我非常認同委員所說的也是我們在做的"},{"start":660.768,"end":685.615,"text":"我們不能因為日本缺米然後我們短時間之內供給比較多的米就引以為傲其實我們要消耗日本的米是一個優質的而且是要長期的供應的部分兩個重點第一個重點就是現在各縣市有很多各縣市優質的米那我們會協助它有一個品牌因為我覺得打造日本要用品牌去打第二個就是通路的鏈接啦"},{"start":686.195,"end":710.274,"text":"那通路鏈結我們現在也跟很多日本的大商社邀請他們來台灣然後去參訪我們的稻米的產地然後希望說他們能夠用一個比較長期的訂單來支持這個部分才是我們要的對 這個也是政府的責任品牌 通路 穩定 採購 制度非常的重要因為我們台灣米是非常的"},{"start":711.695,"end":738.604,"text":"這個棒喔 那我也希望近期可以聽到好的消息 方向是對了因為我們國內米要差不多30多塊那你外銷一定會比較好而且幫我們也等於做一個外交也協助我們的農民這是非常好的一個方向一定要加油有了好的成績請告訴大家可以開一個記者會告訴我們的通路是怎麼樣我們的米是怎麼樣好好的去宣傳 好不好幫助我們的農民 謝謝"},{"start":741.865,"end":741.886,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1173,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時42分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。面對氣候變遷跟極端災害的頻率上升，我們努力推動農業保險條例，這個對我們農民來講是非常的重要，因為剛剛所說的這兩項因素，對於整個農業經營的風險是日益升高，所以我們的農業保險制度應該是保障農民所得、穩定農業經濟的一個重要的政策工具。但是我們看到，目前為止，整個執行的情形似乎不如我們預期，又因為這樣的因素，所以我也統計，到112年底，自願性投保的農民僅占了6.17%，漁業漁產跟農作物的覆蓋率甚至是達到2.43%跟2.8%，都低於3%。在去年度（113年），我們不斷地在調整方案，113年度是有增加的，但是我們仍舊認為在這樣的高風險因子當中，我們還有很大的成長空間，所以今天我們的召委也跟著一起來提案，討論怎麼樣能夠讓我們的農民更加得到保障，又有更佳的誘因，讓他們可以來參加保險，有很多高經濟產值的農業，比如說我們的梨子產值非常高，但是現在是高風險，它不掉果會落果，有的就掉在紙包裡頭，是因風搖曳而脫落，所以沒有辦法得到養分，所以到最後就「啞巴」了，也是沒有用的，這個果實就壞掉了，即使我們看到這麼大一顆果子，可是竟然沒有辦法採收，農民的損失非常大。所以我們也提出了建議，也就是農業保險在這個部分，在前5年給予上限為75%的協助，第6年則為60%，因應這整個策略性，以及老天爺給我們的挑戰，以前沒有想過的，現在都會發生，在這樣的情況之下，我們非常希望能夠增加誘因，把條件放寬，因時因類別而定之。所以我希望的也就是行政部門不要一下子就否決委員的提案，因為我從早上聽到現在，我不希望如此，而是希望把這些寶貴的意見來綜合我們所有的條件，以因應氣候變遷極端災害，補償受損農民，減少他們的痛苦，增加他們的收入。請做說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個就是，我絕對沒有否定所有委員的版本，這是第一個要說明的。","第二個就是說，委員的版本裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你就要支持啊！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：不是。因為委員的版本裡面，第6年60%拿掉以後，那就有不確定性，不一定是提高喔，也可以是0喔！因為沒有寫，1到5年有寫，原來的6年以後上限是60%，可是你把它劃掉……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以要因應實際需求啊！所以不受限在60%啊！你也可以繼續75%！甚至因應特別情況提高到80%啊！所以剛剛本席特別說了，是因應類別、因應氣候變遷跟極端災害的頻率嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：所以重點是在第二項裡面要求農業部一定要定期檢討，我覺得那個才是重點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["陳部長駿季：然後第二個就是說，現在前面5年上限是75%，因為法律規定是上限嘛，那以農業部來講……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那是我們共同去訂的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。以農業部來講，我們實際在過去5年大概是用二分之一為標準，也沒有到上限，然後我們鼓勵跟地方政府合作，那地方政府出再多的話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是因為只有二分之一，所以誘因也沒有那麼多，剛開始大家怕怕的，所以也沒有宣導得那麼好，那現在逐步有一點成績，所以這個議題我希望你們去好好檢討，我們整個農業保險制度要怎麼樣去提升投保的意願，真正能夠保護我們的農民跟他們的經濟收益，我相信這一個共識點部長應該同意吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，臺中市的部分，農業部補二分之一，臺中市政府補四成，所以農民只出一成，然後用這種方式也不會違背現在的法律規定，現在法律規定只是針對中央……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是因為我們盧市長對於農業非常關心啊！可是不一定每個縣市都是如此啊！今天你是農業部，是中央啊！不能拿一個來比喻啊！你比喻其他，你比不了啊！我告訴你。","好，所以我跟你說，這是最重要的，你好好去檢討，我們的農業保險制度要怎麼提升投保的意願，要怎麼確保農民的權利跟他們的經濟收入，以因應氣候變遷跟極端的災害頻率，好不好？你去研議。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個，本席要請教有關刺網的問題，最近媒體一直在披露，宜蘭南方澳的豆腐岬海域是商港區，但是有一些潛水的教練，他們在那裡發覺到了這個問題，民眾幫我們發掘，政府就要有責任去管控。在2021年的時候，我們就已經說了刺網實名制，對不對？部長。2021年我們就說刺網要實名制，網子上面要寫船的編號，萬一發生事情，才有線索去瞭解這是誰做的，對不對？那現在這個區塊都是什麼？珊瑚耶，是珊瑚，這麼寶貴耶！你這樣任由人家去抓，尤其現在又是捕龍蝦的旺季，對吧？那可以嗎？那我們政府要怎麼應對？請教。"],["陳部長駿季：這種行為是絕對不允許的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：絕對不允許。"],["陳部長駿季：我們也加強了實名制的查核，但是很可惜、很遺憾地就是說，現在目前包覆在珊瑚礁上面的那個刺網，並沒有辦法靠實名制查到使用者，可能是更早之前就已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你的方法不對嘛！既然你明知道有這個問題，政府沒有辦法去應對，這不是應付應付就可以了，這一次你要好好去應對，你要有方法，你查不到那是誰，可是誰怎麼放下去，你要去找方法啊！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你不能破壞啊！整個珊瑚礁耶！這個是我們聽了心都會痛耶！怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我才會說，雖然說現在沒有辦法查到已經覆蓋在珊瑚礁上面的刺網，但是後續我們會針對這個區域，跟地方政府和海巡去強化，就是說，任何一個刺網，只要出去的話，我先檢查你有沒有實名制再說。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：管控。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從源頭管控，而去落實行動，才能夠保住，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。而且這個刺網是出去也要回來，不能出去以後回來就不見了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以部長，你知道嗎？比如說，去年刺網你查獲的有幾件？你查獲的有幾件？你前年查獲的有幾件？"],["王署長茂城：去年我們總共查了23件，處分的有13件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：前年幾件？"],["王署長茂城：前年是17件，處分是11件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你聽了會不會心痛？你有方法，而且越來越多，要不要改變方法？對不對？前年跟去年增加，那你要不要改變方法？這個是我們行政部門的責任，對不對？尤其那裡又是珊瑚區，又是商港區，不容許有刺網，要注意。現在龍蝦的旺季，生產旺季，可以抓的旺季，要趕快去圍堵好，要有應對的方法，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把方案給本席。","最後一個議題，糧食產業全面升級方案，就是在6月10日你們所推動的，我也給予鼓勵，也就是要讓我們地區農會都能夠有契作的制度，強化整個統一栽培管理、安全用藥、產銷履歷的驗證、水稻收入的保險機制，這個非常重要，來提升稻米的品質跟穩定農民的收益，這個也是我們一直一直一直在努力的。所以在這邊本席要請教，因為我們臺灣米有夠讚，世界讚，光是我們米的品種，還有栽培技術，跟食味優勢，吃下去QQQ，又香，太棒了，所以我們外交的潛力會很多，怎麼樣能夠有管道可以讓我們種植水稻的農民收益能夠更好？到目前為止，1月份到5月份，我幫你統計，臺灣米外銷日本突破7,700公噸，比去年同期增加六倍，那是因為日本正在缺米，發生米荒，所以我們的時機對了，請教部長，既然有這樣子的一個方案，那我們針對於稻米外銷的部分，你是不是有針對日本去考量？不要因為人家發生米荒，我們就填進去，我希望能夠循序漸進地，按部就班地，有管道，有長期穩健的採購通路，來確保我們臺灣米能夠穩定地輸出。請教方案。"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同委員所說的，也是我們在做的，我們不能因為日本缺米，然後我們短時間之內供給比較多的米，就引以為傲，其實我們要銷到日本的米是優質的，而且也是要長期供應，有兩個重點，第一個重點就是，現在各縣市有很多優質的米，我們會協助他們建立品牌，因為我覺得打到日本要用品牌去打。第二個就是通路的鏈結，在通路的鏈結，我們現在也跟很多日本的大商社聯繫，邀請他們來臺灣，然後去參訪我們稻米的產地，然後希望他們能夠用一個比較長期的訂單來支持，這個部分才是我們要的，這個我們要處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。這個也是政府的責任，品牌、通路、穩定採購制度非常重要。"],["陳部長駿季：對。這個我們努力在做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們臺灣米是非常棒，那我也希望近期可以聽到好的消息，方向是對的，因為我們國內的米差不多三十幾塊，外銷一定會比較好，而且也等於幫我們做外交，也協助我們的農民，這是非常好的一個方向，一定要加油。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有了好的成績，請告訴大家，可以開個記者會，告訴我們的通路是怎麼樣，我們的米是怎麼樣，好好地去宣傳，幫助我們的農民，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請陳冠廷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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有請我們陳部長還有漁業署王署長陳部長 王署長"},{"start":13.903,"end":38.719,"text":"委員好部長署長午安我想剛剛聽到我們邱志維委員提到很多的一些的建設我想高屏過去一向是我們這個漁業的重鎮我相信部長跟署長也常常到高屏地區關心我們一些漁業的問題那尤其今年我們看到今年的東港的黑鮪魚一樣這個獵的量也很大那我們也在6月8號都截止"},{"start":41.341,"end":66.024,"text":"那請見我們過去長期對於這個漁業的保育跟我們這個漁民的這個互動上面有做一個很好的一個改善的一個機制那我想我們也期待農業部跟漁業署繼續支持我們的一個漁業的一個發展部長認同絕對認同這個漁業是我們必須要去支持的產業尤其屏東除了這個高屏地區我們一直經常"},{"start":68.355,"end":86.99,"text":"很大力的協助了是因為最近部長跟署長也常常到屏東我想我們除了這個遠洋近海的這個捕撈作業之外還有我們的養殖也是養殖也是所以針對這樣的一個軟硬體建設還是要請部長跟署長來大力支持那不過最近我們有聽到我們這個漁業署"},{"start":88.631,"end":117.355,"text":"我們提出了一個遠洋漁船的一個薪資保障的一個制度甚至提出一個公資電廠的一個互助基金署長這個制度當時為什麼會有這個構想跟委員報告基本上我們現在整個遠洋產業在面對國際上的壓力很大一塊就是強迫勞動這一塊那為什麼大家會認定台灣的漁業會有強迫勞動的情形這是最近這兩三年"},{"start":118.876,"end":133.144,"text":"單單發生欠薪的船的個案大概有10件那每一個欠薪的個案大概都欠了12個月到18個月不等所以變成在NGO或是美國在認定你台灣整個遠洋產業裡面"},{"start":134.525,"end":154.788,"text":"你這一個雇主經營者你沒有履行到你要付薪水這樣的一個義務所以國際對我們的責難很大啦那這一個付薪水這一件事本來就是我們經營者你應付的一個義務所以我們後來是設計一套就是說未來你如果每個月付薪水的"},{"start":155.208,"end":169.823,"text":"你要跟我善盡這一個通報的義務讓我知道你有每個月付薪水那我們的東港的小調有一個特色是他一行次回來才付一次薪水問題是一行次回來是八個月"},{"start":170.424,"end":185.942,"text":"那等我們發現他欠薪水的時候這八個月欠起來都已經不是那個仲介保證金可以處理所以我們才想說發展出一道漁民自己之間提繳一定額度的互助金那目前我們馬上可以來做處理"},{"start":188.044,"end":209.983,"text":"一艘船先繳五萬,總湊了五千萬的一個基金,是這個版本嗎?我們現在希望是一年大概兩千萬,那大概分三年,逐年把這個互助金的這個水庫可以達到五千萬的這樣的一個規模。蘇長,你知道現在這個方案在地方已經造成很大的雜音嗎?"},{"start":211.016,"end":236.693,"text":"我了解 我了解 但是其實跟委員報告這個有少數一些漁民有比較大的反彈聲音很多人都在關懷啦 你都說接受而已部長我想我們支持我們要照顧我們的這個漁工的權益但是我想用這樣的一個制度把所有大家人一起去承擔風險但是對有的人說有可能就是少數的人他藉由這個機會他就是幫你幫忙不幫你錄影的時候我們怎麼面對這樣的一個機制"},{"start":241.738,"end":253.817,"text":"我個人覺得就是你雇船員不管是國內或外籍的你應該付薪水這天經地義的然後你如果有一些"},{"start":255.066,"end":276.583,"text":"包括委員所提到 如果說你的風險很高的話我就會強勢你去做一些護住金的提繳應該是選擇性的做處理那你如果說是正常繳的 你就是提報嘛所以我覺得現在還是在做溝通但是溝通中有不同的意見 我相信我們會收集起來以後然後再做一個調整啦"},{"start":277.163,"end":292.186,"text":"對啦,我今天還是要去溝通,要去收集意見啦比較只是你們現在的做法就是我就是不會這樣做,你們都要聽我的所有的反彈都是我們這些民意代表在承受你們都不要聽我的意見我想喔"},{"start":292.927,"end":310.576,"text":"我們現在會去溝通其實並不是說我們政策已經訂了然後去宣導這是兩件事情所以在溝通過程中如果有一些不同的意見我想我們待會來會重新去設計這個部分我想我們可以承諾會去做一個檢討好部長署長所以我還是要特別提到說這樣的案子"},{"start":311.076,"end":332.804,"text":"我們應該再來審慎來評估來討論一下甚至今年黑鮪魚的一個捕撈的一個制度當然我感謝署長跟部長的支持我們去年檢討完之後今年在運作上面當然已經有順暢很多但是還是有值得去要檢討的地方我再找時間再跟你來討論一下我相信我們一年要做的比一年更好"},{"start":333.624,"end":354.483,"text":"那另外剛剛我們邱志永委員有提到的那個建設問題我想我自己本身也帶了署長也看了好幾個地方我想包含我們的周縣長上一次部長來我們口提的疫區記者會的時候周縣長也有特別跟部長拜託那所以針對東港、漁港部長現在走路啊這個沿流線那邊"},{"start":355.438,"end":376.908,"text":"很漂亮 是一個觀光的景點但是相對現在東港碼頭這邊還是一樣破舊不堪真的要加快來進行東港現在是這麼重要的一個漁業發展的一個基地那景觀一定要顧起來部長能不能支持這樣的一個案子我想我們漁業署會跟縣府先做一個整體的規劃第二個部分就是所有的"},{"start":378.481,"end":407.019,"text":"經費需要支持我們一定努力來但是還是要有一個我們的總預算的限制所以相對的就是後續提出來的這些規劃我想第一個就是說縣府跟我們這邊要怎麼樣的去有一個更完整的規劃我覺得比較重要而不是一個規劃完了以後一直擴大或是一直追加那樣子的話農業部的經費沒有辦法被這樣子一個使用所以我想我們後續我想漁業組會跟縣府會做一個更完整的規劃"},{"start":408.561,"end":431.807,"text":"部長那我想最後一個就是5月27號我們感謝農業部跟漁業署的支持我們仿寮區漁會的漁市場在5月27號已經啟用這個花了5000多萬那製冰場也明年要完工那最後一里路就是這個擴港的一個計畫我想擴港計畫一完成之後包含我們所有仿寮漁港230艘的漁船一年的拍賣量200多噸"},{"start":433.507,"end":453.26,"text":"交易的金額有將近6,000多萬現有的福利確實是不服使用請部長也要支持這樣的一個擴港計畫我相信未來之後訪寮也是我們未來在這個屏東的這個屏中跟屏南的發展的很重的一個漁業的一個基地部長願意支持嗎我想訪寮漁港的部分我覺得那個金額已經"},{"start":454.441,"end":483.564,"text":"沒有辦法用我們的公務預算去支應所以我覺得像類似的未來的漁港的建設我覺得可能我們要重新去檢討然後用提一個比較具體的專案計畫向行政院爭取啦不然就用那個往前推進啦我們繼續繼續往前所以我想用專案的計畫把所有的漁港必須建設的一次看怎麼樣的去向行政院爭取不然以現在那個我們的公務預算其實並不多支持一個漁港就掛掉了"},{"start":484.804,"end":499.549,"text":"部長最後一個我想我們今天感謝就是我們支持我們這個養殖的我們的一個海水供應站的系統但是我們現在有發現一個問題因為我們現在海水供應站並沒有串聯"},{"start":500.589,"end":529.761,"text":"那最近發生了我們加東溫豐的海水供應站他們在稅休的時候他沒辦法供水給這些養殖戶就變成養殖戶還是必須要用原本舊的管去抽水我覺得這個機制是有問題的我們既然要做供應站之後應該要把這些管路那些世界器官的管線應該把它除掉但是他們對於人民來講他們怎麼樣取得他們的水權的運用的這一塊是不是應該漁業署我們跟縣政府也要來討論一下"},{"start":531.043,"end":535.574,"text":"這個備援系統要怎麼做處理好 謝謝委員的建議我覺得委員的建議非常重要就是說"},{"start":537.058,"end":560.693,"text":"兩個不同的海水供應系統之間要有可能的串聯的備援系統才能夠讓他能夠互相支援那這個部分我想我們漁業署這邊也在積極在做就是兩個部分之間的備援系統怎麼規劃然後未來再跟委員請教看要怎麼樣去做在對地方是最適當的 獨立的部分能夠做怎麼樣一個對這個這個應該在其實在建設的時候就應該規劃進去是好這個我們再來我們會來努力來做好謝謝好謝謝我們現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時32分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長還有漁業署王署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、王署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、署長，午安。剛剛聽到邱志偉委員提到很多建設，我想，高屏一向是漁業重鎮，部長跟署長也常常到高屏地區關心一些漁業問題。尤其我們看到今年東港的黑鮪魚捕撈量一樣很大，也在6月8日截止，顯見農業部過去長期在漁業的保育跟漁民的互動上做了很好的改善機制，我也期待農業部跟漁業署繼續支持我們的漁業發展。部長認同吧？"],["陳部長駿季：絕對認同啊！漁業是我們必須支持的產業啊！"],["徐委員富癸：尤其屏東除了遠洋……"],["陳部長駿季：對於高屏地區，我們一直很大力地協助。"],["徐委員富癸：是，最近部長跟署長也常常到屏東。我們除了遠洋近海的捕撈作業，養殖也是很重要的，所以針對這部分的軟硬體建設還是要請部長跟署長大力支持。","不過最近我們聽到漁業署提出遠洋漁船的薪資保障制度、甚至提出工資墊償的互助基金，署長，關於這個制度，當時為什麼會有這個構想？"],["王署長茂城：跟委員報告，基本上現在我國整個遠洋產業所面對的國際壓力有很大一塊就是強迫勞動。為什麼大家會認定臺灣的漁業有強迫勞動情形？這是因為最近這兩、三年，單單是發生欠薪事件的船隻個案大概就有10件，而每一起欠薪個案大概都欠了12個月到18個月不等，導致NGO或美國認定在臺灣整個遠洋產業裡面，雇主、經營者沒有履行付薪水這樣的義務，所以國際上對我們的責難很大啦！由於付薪水這件事本來就是經營者應負的義務，所以我們後來設計一套方式，如果是每個月付薪水者，未來每個月要善盡通報義務，讓我知道雇主有每個月付薪水。而東港的小釣有一個特色，就是一航次回來才付一次薪水，問題是一航次回來是8個月，等我們發現積欠薪水，這8個月欠起來都已經不是仲介保證金可以處理，所以我們才發展出一套制度，在漁民自己之間提繳一定額度的互助金，一出事情我們馬上可以處理。"],["徐委員富癸：署長，目前的方案是一艘船先繳5萬元，總共湊5,000萬元的基金，是這個版本嗎？"],["王署長茂城：我們現在希望的是一年大概2,000萬元，分為3年，逐年讓互助金的水庫達到5,000萬元這樣的規模。"],["徐委員富癸：署長，你知道現在這個方案在地方上引發很大的雜音嗎？"],["王署長茂城：我了解，但是跟委員報告，其實少數漁民有比較大的反彈聲音……"],["徐委員富癸：不是少數，而是很多人都反對啦！你都說只有少數而已。部長，我們支持照顧漁工的權益，但是用這樣的制度、讓大家一起承擔風險，萬一有些人──有可能就是少數人藉由這個機會自己「放管」爽約、不繳錢，你們怎麼面對這樣的機制？"],["陳部長駿季：我個人覺得，僱了船員，不管是國內或外籍，就應該付薪水，這是天經地義的。包括委員提到的風險很高者，我就會強制他做一些互助金的提繳，如果正常繳的就要求提報。"],["徐委員富癸：應該是選擇性處理啊！"],["陳部長駿季：現階段還在溝通，面對溝通中有不同意見，我相信我們會蒐集起來以後再做調整啦！"],["王署長茂城：是，我們會再調整。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦！我建議還是要溝通、要蒐集意見啊！你們現在的做法是硬要這樣，漁民都要聽你們的，但所有反彈都由我們這些民意代表承受，你們也不聽我們的意見。"],["陳部長駿季：我想，我們現在會去溝通其實並不是因為政策已經定了、要去宣導，這是兩件事情。所以，在溝通過程中如果有一些不同意見，我們會帶回來重新設計，這部分我們可以承諾檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：好。部長、署長，我還是要特別提出，像這樣的案子應該再審慎評估、討論一下。甚至是今年黑鮪魚的捕撈制度，當然我感謝署長跟部長的支持，去年檢討完之後，今年在運作上已經順暢很多，但還是有值得、需要檢討的地方，我會再找時間跟你們討論，相信一年要做得比一年更好。","另外是剛剛邱志偉委員提到的建設問題，我自己也帶署長看了好幾個地方，上一次部長來參加口蹄疫非疫區記者會的時候，周縣長也特別向部長拜託。部長，關於東港漁港，現在鹽埔鹽琉線那邊很漂亮，成了觀光景點，但是相對的，東港碼頭這邊還是一樣破舊不堪，真的要加快進行啦！東港現在是這麼重要的漁業發展基地，景觀一定要顧起來。部長，能不能支持這樣的案子？"],["陳部長駿季：漁業署會先跟縣府做整體的規劃。第二部分就是所有經費只要需要支持，我們一定努力來辦，但還是有總預算的限制。所以對於後續提出來的規劃，第一點是縣府跟我們這邊要研究怎麼樣做更完整的規劃，我覺得這點比較重要，而不是規劃完之後一直擴大或是一直追加，農業部經費沒有辦法被這樣使用。所以後續漁業署會跟縣府做更完整的規劃。"],["徐委員富癸：好。","部長，最後一個是感謝農業部跟漁業署的支持，枋寮區漁會的魚市場在5月27日已經啟用，花了五千多萬元，製冰廠明年也要完工。最後一哩路就是擴港計畫，我想擴港計畫一完成之後，包含枋寮漁港230艘漁船一年的拍賣量兩百多噸，交易的金額將近六千多萬，現有腹地確實是不敷使用，請部長也要支持這樣的一個擴港計畫，我相信之後枋寮也是未來屏東跟屏南發展很重要的一個漁業基地，部長願意支持嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：枋寮漁港的金額已經沒有辦法用我們的公務預算去支應，所以我覺得類似的未來漁港建設，可能我們要重新去檢討，然後提一個比較具體的專案計畫，向行政院爭取，不然……"],["徐委員富癸：往前推進，我們繼續來努力。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是往前，所以我想用專案計畫，把所有漁港必須建設的計畫，看怎麼樣去向行政院爭取，不然現在我們的公務預算其實並不多，支持一個漁港建設就掛掉了。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，最後，我今天想感謝部裡支持養殖的海水供應站系統，但是我們現在也發現一個問題，現在海水供應站並沒有串連，最近茄苳塭豐的海水供應站在歲修的時候沒有辦法供水給這些養殖戶，就變成養殖戶還是必須要用原本舊的管去抽水，我覺得這個機制是有問題的，我們既然要做供應站，應該要把這些世界奇觀的管線除掉，但是對漁民來講，他們怎麼樣取得他們的水權，在運用的這一塊，漁業署跟縣政府是不是應該也要來討論一下備援系統要怎麼處理？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的建議。我覺得委員的建議非常重要，就是說，兩個不同的海水供應系統之間要有可能串聯的備援系統，才能夠互相支援，那這個部分我們漁業署也積極在做，就是兩個之間的備援系統怎麼規劃，然後未來再跟委員請教，看看要怎麼樣去做，對地方是最適當的。這個應該是在建設的時候就要規劃進去了。"],["徐委員富癸：是。好，這個我們再來討論一下。"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們會努力來做。"],["徐委員富癸：好，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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金費沒有到位的話未來如果理賠的話是沒有經費理賠的"},{"start":182.556,"end":197.027,"text":"我們從一個數據來對照我們的農業保險的這個保費的補助這個支出在整體補助的比重大概只有一趴啦這跟美國比較起來是天差地遠所以大家想說我們的農業安全網"},{"start":198.356,"end":213.442,"text":"它整個架構你這偏重於產品以及要素的補貼所以這部分反而整個農業保險政策在你們整體的施政裡面還不是相對重要的一個角色你要想面對"},{"start":214.623,"end":237.882,"text":"這個氣候變遷跟貿易自由化農業安全往下面的農業保險是非常重要所以要有前瞻性跟有韌性所以這部分是不是可以往這方面去思考吧天然救助的轉型成免費農業保險可行性品 你也先做一個可行性品對 我們可以先做看哪一些品項可以"},{"start":239.229,"end":258.362,"text":"由天然災害的保險轉到農業的保險這個我想我們可以來評估然後比較可行的我們也許可以現在示範這個部分是不是可以請三個月之內提出一個可行性評估你們初步的規劃一個月三個月三個月可以三個月做出一個比較詳細的評估報告你們以及未來的初步規劃繼續再請教部長還有我們署長"},{"start":267.788,"end":293.283,"text":"這個如果農保把強勢性的納保把它扣除事實上我們負保率啊 覆蓋率20.7現在20.7啦 是OK 我們數據沒有更新所以那整體的覆蓋率是五成多啦所以代表說你扣掉強勢性納保比如說水道 那個水道 那個住宿保險所以只要20點多那部分高風險 譬如說酒盤儀"},{"start":296.985,"end":310.17,"text":"平均才2.7而已?九板魚養殖的年期大概要5、6年如果霸王級的寒流好像2017年的時候造成整個石斑魚是大崩盤所以這個有保險制度你要針對比如說九板魚"},{"start":320.094,"end":338.093,"text":"芒果、木瓜、洋楓這個基本上是零頭保或者低頭保但是它是一個高災損只要發生天然氣候變遷或者造成氣候嚴重的傷害他們基本上沒有得到保險的cover"},{"start":338.974,"end":358.107,"text":"所以這部分你們有沒有怎麼樣去做調整把這些漁業長期處於低頭飽的狀態把它能夠有效提升我跟委員報告剛才就是扣掉強制性的話只有20.7%其中漁業的部分才2.7%是最直接的"},{"start":358.647,"end":381.934,"text":"那我們現在我初步的想法可能還要跟那個漁業署他們去討論喔我覺得比較高產值高風險的如果一旦出現他損失特別高的這個部分可能要另外拉出來去設計一套方法石斑魚就是嘛石斑魚高風險然後他是高度依賴外銷高風險的跟一般風險或者低風險的他的寶貝的設計設計應該是不一樣的啦你現狀來看石斑魚我要幫你報告"},{"start":388.016,"end":391.141,"text":"106我們推銷已經要幾年了7、8年了對不對現在投保面積不到100公頃全台中央面積2%以下"},{"start":400.526,"end":425.466,"text":"那這種狀況你要把那個高風險石斑魚高風險然後依賴外銷的這些產業把它納入農保的範圍您認為呢我想我們剛才說的我們在三個月一併評估天然災害一方面可能天然災害轉過來另外一方面就是像我剛才說的把這些用風險值去分高中低然後設計不同的一些保險的這些規範是好"},{"start":428.867,"end":442.418,"text":"按照這個脈絡繼續再請教您你們在這個設計農業保單的時候這個相關的這個你們的政策大概傾向於重視的你保單數量要怎麼成長 理賠的金額累計來評估做一個成效的評估"},{"start":445.27,"end":470.973,"text":"但是你要從需求面還有品項公平性來切入才是比較符合農民的期待所以保險制度應該是對小農跟非主力的產業作為有更多的保障但目前現狀是保障非常的薄弱所以你應該從風險程度跟災害頻率以及產業脆弱性的連動做一個補助的設計牡蠣有沒有保險"},{"start":473.827,"end":478.561,"text":"現在沒有 最主要是他的保費太高現在以他們保險工程算出來的那個保費太高啦"},{"start":479.342,"end":508.002,"text":"外藝術工你要有差異化差異化的補助條件不是這個花一條線就是它補助標準都一樣照這個天候所以這個部分不能有固定的補助比例應該用產業的特性這個品項的特性來做這個差異性的補助條件的設計以及它災損的頻率評估機制有些農產品它災損頻率很低有些是很高"},{"start":509.107,"end":526.699,"text":"因為傷害這個輕重只要一衝擊一來有些傷害很重有些傷害相對沒那麼重所以是不是能夠有差異化的這個補助條件設計我想非常認同委員所提到的差異化的補助包括它的自災的風險還有包括它的一個相關的災損的程度"},{"start":527.459,"end":538.788,"text":"那這個部分如果用加權的方式去處理的話應該可以設計出另外一個遊戲規則我覺得我們可以朝這方面來努力謝謝部長 我們繼續努力那另外這個國產羊肉"},{"start":542.216,"end":560.301,"text":"江山市這個有名就是江山羊肉,柏柳你有沒有吃過?我吃過那目前國產羊肉市占率是5%而已啦,但是它有季節性的消費傾向是多一梯牛肉肉比較好消,對不對?多一梯就比較不好消,現在的這個價格,國產羊這個拍賣行情"},{"start":567.216,"end":575.344,"text":"最近跌幅到180所以有時候到170幾跌幅到三成多每次一樣成本是2.3萬啊 二或兩萬三啊"},{"start":578.717,"end":603.982,"text":"你賣一支賠一支那針對這個部分農業部有沒有什麼相關的補救措施我們現在啟動了一個機制就是先有協助他們做宰殺凍存先做凍存做一個產期的調節啦後來你同時這樣繼續下去價格會越來越低所以有一些東西不一定要上市直接用凍存的方式去調節它上市的量"},{"start":604.562,"end":632.009,"text":"那這個部分我們現在已經在做相關的團體跟羊農有做過這個接觸對 已經有跟他們做討論他們知道說政府有在提供對 他們也接受這樣的一個方法他們也覺得這個方法是可以接受的好 最後一個問題啊我再花這個一分鐘來跟部長請教就是說台日米食的鏈結這個很重要但是需要一個制度性的長期合作的機制的那像日本釋出廚備米"},{"start":633.527,"end":648.917,"text":"阿對台灣的這個米出口會不會有這個比較屬於中長期的影響你們評估怎麼樣我們個人就是內部的一個評估齁就是我們其實每年稻米的外銷大概是平均大概3500日本啦3500噸左右那"},{"start":649.978,"end":678.426,"text":"今年會比較高有一部分原因是因為他們日本缺米但是我們長期來看我們不能依靠著他缺米才增加我們的銷售所以要建立一個供應鏈要長期的合作協定一定要有一個協議包括有在進行嗎有在進行而且我們像今年我們也邀請了他們很多大商社來這邊希望說能夠能夠定期的去企作或是直接跟我們這個政策是跟商社去談就好還是要通過農林水產省"},{"start":679.326,"end":708.137,"text":"沒有 我們透過商社直接去做長期通路他們政府有沒有 農林水產省有沒有真的總和關稅的品質現在就是商社給我們回報就是他打特定的族群的時候就算關稅外的那個金額他們吸收都還有賺頭他們就願意我們不要是因為只要缺名的時候我們這個數量增加對 就是這樣子常態性的合作 這很重要對 常態性的合作就是要通路 鏈結如果需要國會我們可以去拜訪他們的農林水產省"},{"start":708.777,"end":726.04,"text":"我們曾經談過啦 但是日本對米的那個額度配額跟我們一樣堅持啦就不讓步啦但是這個台日友好這個是最近幾年那個所以我們現在用銅鑼之間這樣我想他們對台灣會非常非常比較友善啦"},{"start":727.201,"end":728.102,"text":"我們現在請徐富奎委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1042,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時20分）謝謝主席，我請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["邱委員志偉：然後是漁業署王署長。"],["主席：請王署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長辛苦了。上個月經濟委員會前往北高雄，考察我選區裡的漁業建設，謝謝王署長全程參與。這部分每一項工程我都親自去看過，都有急迫性跟必要性，對漁民的幫助也大。其中永安、彌陀和茄萣，還有部分在湖內，都是養殖漁業專區啦！所以這部分各樣工程都很重要。先請教一下王署長，您都陪我去看過喔？"],["王署長茂城：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：你對於每一項也都提出寶貴意見，而且漁業署全力支持，我今天只是再利用質詢的機會，請部長更了解。署長很認真、很用心，對於每一項建設工程，只要我邀請他，他都親身參與，而且提出專業的意見。對於這九項工程，是不是能夠請部長、請農業部全力支持漁業署，把這九項工程依序完成？"],["陳部長駿季：我想，以農業部的立場來講一定會支持，現在就是牽涉到經費夠不夠，我後續也會去看。如果經費夠的話，由於有些是分年的……"],["邱委員志偉：如果我沒記錯，署長好像說應該沒有問題啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，有些是分年計畫，如果是分年計畫比較沒問題。如果是同一年，經費可能會不夠啦！"],["邱委員志偉：當然是有年限，比方說三年期或兩年期。"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！所以要回去看看。基本上我們會支持，但是……"],["邱委員志偉：如果是緊急、必要者，要優先來做。譬如說LNG海水管線的擴充工程這部分，尤其是3.5期，我們有共識、討論過嘛！這一項可以優先處理嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會協助。"],["邱委員志偉：好。謝謝署長，署長先請回。","第二，關於保險，天災救助未來有沒有可能做一些轉變？天災救助如果轉型成免費的農業保險，部長看法如何？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也曾經考慮過逐步把天然災害救助轉為農業保險，水稻是先行案例。它有一個前提，就是在原來天然災害救助下，過去三年、五年的平均農損金額要直接轉到保險基金，不然經費沒有到位的話，未來一旦要理賠是沒有經費可理賠的。"],["邱委員志偉：我們從一個數據來對照。農業保險的保費補助支出占整體補助的比重大概只有1%啦！跟美國比較起來是天差地遠，代表我們的農業安全網整體架構已經偏重產品以及要素的補貼，農業保險政策這部分在你們的整體施政裡面反而還不具有相對重要的角色。你要想想，面對氣候變遷跟貿易自由化，農業安全網下面的農業保險是非常重要的，所以要有前瞻性和韌性啦！所以是不是可以往這方面思考，把天然災害救助轉型成免費農業保險？先做可行性評估嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們可以先做，對於哪一些品項可以由天然災害救助轉到農業保險，我們可以評估，比較可行的也許可以現在試辦。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這部分可不可以在三個月之內提出可行性評估以及你們的初步規劃？"],["陳部長駿季：一個月喔？"],["邱委員志偉：三個月啦！"],["陳部長駿季：喔！三個月可以。"],["邱委員志偉：可以喔？好，三個月內做出比較詳細的評估報告以及未來的初步規劃。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：再繼續請教部長還有署長。農保如果把強制性納保扣除，事實上覆蓋率是在……"],["陳部長駿季：20.7%。"],["邱委員志偉：現在20.7%啦？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：OK，我的數據沒有更新。至於整體覆蓋率是在五成多，代表扣掉強制性納保，比方說水稻、豬隻保險之後，比例在百分之二十點多。部分高風險──譬如說石斑魚的寒害……"],["陳部長駿季：喔！魚類平均才2.7%而已。"],["邱委員志偉：例如石斑魚的養殖年期大概五、六年，如果遭遇霸王級寒流……"],["陳部長駿季：來一次就掛掉了。"],["邱委員志偉：有一次霸王級寒流好像發生在2017年，當時造成整體石斑魚價格大崩盤。所以保險制度要針對這一類農產品，比如說石斑魚、芒果、木瓜、養蜂，這些基本上是零投保或低投保，卻是高災損的，只要發生氣候變遷或氣候造成的嚴重傷害，他們基本上都沒有獲得保險的cover，這部分你們有沒有打算調整？對於這些農漁業長期處於低投保的狀態，怎麼有效提升？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，扣掉強制型的話，覆蓋率只有20.7%，其中漁業部分才2.7%，是最直接的。我們現在有初步的想法，可能還要跟漁業署討論，針對比較高產值、高風險、一旦出險損失就特別高的部分，可能要另外拉出來設計一套方法。"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚就是嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚高風險、又高度依賴外銷。"],["陳部長駿季：對。針對高風險、一般風險或低風險產品的保費設計應該是不一樣的啦！"],["邱委員志偉：你要把這些要素拉出來。","以現狀來看，我用石斑魚向你報告，你們從106年開始推動投保，到現在已經幾年啦？七、八年了，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：但現在投保面積還不到100公頃，占全臺總養殖面積2%以下。面對這種狀況，要把石斑魚這類高風險、依賴外銷的產業納入農保範圍，您認為呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想如同剛才說的，我們在三個月內一併評估，一方面可能從天然災害救助轉過來，另一方面就誠如我剛才說的，把這些產業依照風險級距分出高、中、低，然後設計不同保險規範。"],["邱委員志偉：好。","我按照這個脈絡繼續請教您。你們在設計農業保單的時候，相關政策大概是傾向重視保單數量怎麼成長、以理賠金額累計來做成效評估，但是你們要從需求面還有品項公平性切入，才比較符合農民的期待。保險制度應該對小農跟非主力的產業作物有更多保障，問題是現狀保障非常薄弱，你們應該就風險程度、災害頻率與產業脆弱性的連動作補助的設計。比如說牡蠣有沒有保險？"],["陳部長駿季：現在沒有，最主要是因為保費太高，保險公司算出來的保費太高啦！"],["邱委員志偉：不！我的意思是要有差異化的補助條件，而不是劃一條線，補助標準都一樣，就是只按照天候評估。這部分不能用固定的補助比例，應該用產業特性、品項特性來做差異性補助條件的設計還有災損頻率的評估機制。有些農產品災損頻率很低，但是有些很高，也就是有傷害輕重之分，例如衝擊一來，有些傷害很重，有些傷害相對沒那麼重，所以是不是能有差異化的補助條件設計？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同委員提到的差異化補助，包括致災風險、也包括災損程度。這部分如果用加權的方式處理，應該可以設計出另外一個遊戲規則，我們可以朝這個方向來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝部長，我們繼續努力。","另外，國產羊肉中，有名的就是岡山羊肉。部長，你吃過吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我吃過。"],["邱委員志偉：目前國產羊肉市占率四、五趴而已啦！但是有季節性的消費傾向，天冷時羊肉爐比較好賣，對不對？熱天就不好銷。以現在的價格，國產羊隻的拍賣行情最近跌破180元，有時候來到一百七十幾，跌幅到三成多。而每隻羊的成本是2.3萬元，也就是兩萬三啦！導致賣一隻賠一隻。針對這個現象，農業部有沒有什麼相關補救措施？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在啟動了一個機制，就是先協助他們宰殺凍存，也就是做產期的調節啦！不然繼續下去，價格會愈來愈低，所以有一些東西不一定要上市，而是直接以凍存方式調節上市的量，這部分我們現在已經在做了。"],["邱委員志偉：那你們有沒有跟相關團體、羊農接觸或討論過？"],["陳部長駿季：有，已經跟他們討論了。"],["邱委員志偉：他們知道政府有提供協助？"],["陳部長駿季：對，他們也接受這樣的方法，覺得這個方法是可以接受的。"],["邱委員志偉：好。","最後一個問題，我再花一分鐘向部長請教。臺日米食鏈結很重要，但是需要一項制度性的長期合作機制啦！現在日本釋出儲備米，對臺灣米的出口會不會有比較屬於中長期的影響，你們怎麼評估？"],["陳部長駿季：依照我們內部的評估，其實每年稻米外銷日本平均大概是3,500噸左右，今年會比較高，有部分原因是日本缺米。但長期來看，不能倚靠他們缺米增加我們的銷售，所以要建立供應鏈。"],["邱委員志偉：要有長期合作的協定。"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定要有協議，包括跟通路……"],["邱委員志偉：有在進行嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有在進行，而且今年我們邀請了他們很多大商社來這邊，希望定期契作或直接跟我們買。"],["邱委員志偉：這個政策是跟商社談就好，還是要經過農林水產省？"],["陳部長駿季：我們透過商社直接做長期……"],["邱委員志偉：透過通路？"],["陳部長駿季：對，通路。"],["邱委員志偉：他們的政府、農林水產省有沒有針對總額、關稅、品質等做相關限制？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。現在商社給我們的回報就是打特定族群的時候，就算關稅外的金額他們都吸收，但只要還有賺頭，他們就願意。"],["邱委員志偉：我們不要只在他們缺米的時候出口量才增加……"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是這樣。"],["邱委員志偉：常態性合作這點很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：對，常態性的合作就是要透過通路鏈結才能做。"],["邱委員志偉：如果需要國會，我們可以去拜訪他們的農林水產省。"],["陳部長駿季：我們曾經談過，但是日本對於米的額度、配額跟我們一樣堅持，就是不讓步啦！"],["邱委員志偉：喔！但是最近幾年臺日友好，不管是產業合作或民間交流……"],["陳部長駿季：對啦！所以我們現在就是用通路去鏈結。"],["邱委員志偉：我想他們對臺灣是非常、非常友善啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以要利用這個氛圍啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們曾經問過，但他們說稻米不要碰啦！"],["邱委員志偉：這樣啊？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為他們對稻米……"],["邱委員志偉：那石斑魚可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：石斑魚就有機會啦！"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚再談一下啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，石斑魚我們可以談啦！"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚再努力一下。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請徐富癸委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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市長好 署長好 副署長好部長先跟你講一個不錯的消息"},{"start":43.039,"end":55.136,"text":"過去啊我們糯農一直在埋怨台紐經濟協定紐西蘭的乳製品零關稅進口衝擊到本土糯農的生計結果我們昨天幾位委員開了一個記者會謝謝師長來提供資料這幾年"},{"start":61.923,"end":90.305,"text":"零關稅之後 紐西蘭的液態乳進口量沒有增加餒市面的銷售金額也沒有下降餒反而是冰磚還原乳啊 大量增加都跑掉什麼跑到不是零售通路的那個盒裝牛奶都跑到業務通路的那個手搖飲裡面部長知不知道這個情況我每個禮拜他們都會有包括鮮乳、薄酒乳跟冰磚乳的進口量所以我說的是不是這個情況是所以你們都要補牌換店嘛 對不對"},{"start":92.037,"end":114.264,"text":"鹵農現在經常檢測不是台牛零關稅嘛是鹵廠四大品牌廠大量進口那些冰磚懷孕乳供應到業務通路加在我們手搖飲裡面而且這個占比越來越高不怪我們本土的鹵農他們的選領品牌廠說我不要跟你訂那麼多有沒有這個情況 部長"},{"start":115.906,"end":138.792,"text":"以現在來看冰莊乳大概每一年大概一萬七千多增加一萬八現在到六月六月的話它本身的量還在它這個範圍之內沒有暴增的非常厲害所以我是說農業部當時堅持鮮乳標章未來的食品安全就要以鮮乳標示這一點明年七月要開始實施請農業部繼續跟酪農宣導"},{"start":141.794,"end":149.438,"text":"請幫諾農推廣我們的鮮乳一個通路好不好我們現在就要做一定要做很好謝謝謝謝市長謝謝市長我們接下來問農保的問題其實上個月我們辦了一個考察財政委員會辦了一個考察到農會去農民就反映了很多農業保險的問題那其中就有提到這個"},{"start":162.356,"end":181.875,"text":"很多人心情天然在救助啦,但是沒有保養的品項啦或者是說在檳榔樹之間種香蕉,或者說椰子樹之間種檳榔只要有檳榔,不被認為農作物的檳榔園裡面種有保險保單的這些作物像香蕉,是不是農業保險不保現在是這樣吧"},{"start":186.884,"end":214.058,"text":"現在是這樣子,就是建做的但是你要知道,我們農民建做一個一個廠房裡面多種作物建做是一個常態,有他們的道理是不是回去評估一下,類似像這樣檳榔園裡面建做香蕉這個香蕉也可以導播,可以考慮嗎?我覺得可以,但是就是面積要重算面積要重算,應該是可行的你面積跟植株要重新計算,可以嗎?請指示署長回去研究"},{"start":215.459,"end":233.667,"text":"其實我們來看一下農友反應的問題環環相扣台灣的國平產值佔了37%一年在我們屏東的產值佔了大概32億新台幣其中你看香蕉是個重要作物但是去年的天災最近我們常常去新青天南台叫走的有雷鳳嘛 對不對有陸來嘛 有雙鴨嘛 對不對陸來跟雙鴨有多大"},{"start":240.302,"end":265.805,"text":"目前沒有嘛所以我們是不是可以說這些農民有在栽作的這些品項保單要不要擴充品項要不要增加可以嗎?可以減價嗎?我想我們對於新保單的開發當然要看它本身的過去的數據夠不夠多才能夠算它的理賠風險這是一個很重要如果說這個數據是可以開始算的話我們就會來啟動"},{"start":266.846,"end":292.94,"text":"是然後第二個部分在啟動的過程中我們過往少做的就是我們比較少去我們都是開發完了以後再去跟農民宣導其實在保單設計中就應該跟農民來做參與好所以呢您剛剛講的有幾個品項啦就這個農作物的品項要不要來開發為農業保險的保單包括說它的種植面積它的產量有沒有到一定規模產值是不是夠大因為你沒有這些基本的量不然要怎麼做嘛是"},{"start":294.902,"end":307.08,"text":"是不是說不會賠錢的才能做 有沒有這個規定不會啊 我們現在平均禮賠率是130欸我就跟你講 你看聽起來你講得很理直氣壯禮賠率130欸就是因為禮賠率130沒幫我們公司要做啦"},{"start":312.6,"end":325.39,"text":"所以我是說我們農業保險一方面我這個有點讓你為難一方面你要擴大我們作物的保單的品項內容二方面你又要找到那個保險公司你叫他怎麼都沒辦法做啦所以這個農金署要想辦法好不好要馬而好要馬不吃草"},{"start":333.2,"end":357.634,"text":"不過現在商業保端的理賠率是47%啦商業保端是47%喔?所以還是有錢賺喔?那就趕快開發啊!我們最多的就是鳳梨釋迦啦!鳳梨釋迦我知道有很多啊!那銀行覺得不好,賣你就不要做了喔?會不會這樣?我相信他們明年不會保了,因為過去平均幾年...你說保險公司他不承保了啦,是不是這個意思?那這樣怎麼辦?那是政策保險"},{"start":358.775,"end":378.388,"text":"所以政策保險所以農金屬這邊要想辦法有保險公司都是兩張包袋你如果說有很多品行都有來報有的報端料有的報端攤報端公司要做嘛你全部的報端都要料他就不愛做了嘛你們現在賣的最好的保單是什麼來往上是不是水稻是不是水稻水稻的覆蓋率怎麼樣"},{"start":379.662,"end":399.176,"text":"學到政策型的保險啊是啊啊所以呢通通要保沒有吧八成八成大概八成三八成因為你們第一個基本型的保險他不用保費都給你補了對不對政府出錢嘛一般的加強跟優質的加強分兩種嘛其實說過去高工女的不可以補嘛現在高工女的可以補嗎可以可以補農民不知道啊"},{"start":400.632,"end":409.195,"text":"應該知道 應該知道 應該啦 農糧署 我們剛剛有揣映下去啦很多農委他沒有積極去選擇啦所以這個長農 他不知道說 啊 原來喔 我們如果我們基本行的不是立法會 不用立法會喔我們那一般行的 一般加強的 跟尤其加強的 我們高工裡面也可以參加這是不是去年開始的政策對 我們的統計大概也增加了1000多公頃來投資 對"},{"start":423.9,"end":430.788,"text":"很好 表示這個政策符合農民的需求加強宣導好不好好就是說你今年開始啊 現在我有在去跟農會問 他們都不知道呢他們都不知道 喔 要怎麼做 政府補助一半呢這補助一半比較好 對不對好 來往前 我們來看"},{"start":439.057,"end":459.451,"text":"所以現在我們來看到這個保費是農民要不要投保的一個關鍵 對不對所以我們這次要審查的這個第十條是說本來的條文設計原來的農業作物保險原來在2020年的五月六月實施現在實施已經快四年多了 對不對所以有在討論說這個費率的問題為什麼當時你們這個費率五年之內的是75%第六年之後降為60%為什麼這樣寫的"},{"start":467.403,"end":494.489,"text":"我想當初的立法精神就是說在初期的時候大家對保險不是那麼那麼熟悉所以政府如果必要的時候可以補助多一點但是有五年的時間慢慢大家了解了這些這些保險的精神以後那應該回到保險的基本的就是它是一個風險的對價關係自己投資自己分擔好但是現在有條文說把後面的"},{"start":495.73,"end":506.329,"text":"60%拿掉了只有說五年以內的是多少沒有五年以後的多少如果修法改成說五年以內的75%五年之後的變成85%你覺得這樣合不合理"},{"start":508.306,"end":529.069,"text":"我跟農業部的立場基本上是 我跟你講啦 說有的這種限時優惠 時間來越少啦你超過時間來 越慢來越貴啦 大家才要參加嘛 對不對所以你們原來的設計就是前高後低 鼓勵農民趕快來參訪 對不對如果改成了前低後高 我就慢慢來啊 是不是這樣子"},{"start":530.049,"end":546.498,"text":"所以你知道了解了沒有所以我們這次第十條的修改呢如果把這個邏輯破壞掉了那就是亂修法啦所以我希望說農業部我們今天沒有主調審查我們今天是巡打大地頭 巡打而已所以說你們這個情形在我們實際上要修改的時候你們要說清楚你前陣子頂75%後陣子頂60%就希望說前陣子五年還幼肥農民關的參加 覆蓋率提高不然怎麼才會了結嘛"},{"start":556.664,"end":564.166,"text":"那如果說你後面的60%拿掉了 農民說那前面75%我就倒掉了蛋啊不可能年齡90%全部補走啊 會這樣嗎會這樣嗎 所以參與率低 保蛋的範圍趕不到農民的需求還有申訴跟協調其實不足 理賠困難這個都是目前我們農業保險推動的一個問題 是不是這樣所以現在 博定 我們要怎麼樣來推進納保作物的品項 有什麼方法"},{"start":586.787,"end":596.017,"text":"我覺得第一個我剛才也曾經說過就是我希望農民對一個作物的保險他是一個持續性的他每年都能夠投保"},{"start":597.18,"end":621.912,"text":"而不是用投機的方式看到風險高就投風險低就不投那如果持續性的投保我們可以考慮它的保費可以打折用這種方式來做一個優惠設施你要想要促銷跟行銷你的保電要促銷跟行銷所以過去我2018年到2024年五年我問了五次有三個重點第一個要有一個農業金融專屬爭議的協調機構有沒有在研議了"},{"start":624.943,"end":641.628,"text":"這個我們有在做還有我們用科技定損的方式遙測的資料庫完善災前災後的對比機制我們現在也在處理我們現在也在做也在做嘛還有呢還有一個就是希望你們這樣定期的跟農民有座談會對於農保的諮詢委員會辦理定期座談會農民意見有沒有在做"},{"start":642.652,"end":650.762,"text":"有在做但是我覺得還可以密度還可以再提高所以希望這三點本席有提出來像今天說的這個品項還有修法希望農業部繼續加油好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":943,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時9分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後請畜牧司的李司長。"],["主席：司長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，農金署李署長和農糧署的陳副署長都一併準備。"],["主席：李署長，陳副署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，司長好，署長好，副署長好。部長，先跟你說一個不錯的消息，過去我們酪農一直在埋怨臺紐經濟協定，紐西蘭的乳製品零關稅進口衝擊到本土酪農的生計，結果昨天我們幾位委員開了一個記者會，謝謝司長來提供資料。這幾年零關稅之後，紐西蘭的液態乳進口量沒有增加，市面的銷售金額也沒有下降，反而是冰磚還原乳大量增加，都跑到什麼？不是跑到零售通路的盒裝牛奶，都跑到業務通路的手搖飲裡面，部長知不知道這個情況？"],["陳部長駿季：每個禮拜他們都會有包括鮮乳、保久乳跟冰磚乳的進口量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是不是我說的這個情況？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們農業部背黑鍋嘛！對不對？酪農現在訂單減少不是因為臺紐零關稅，是乳廠，四大品牌廠大量進口冰磚還原乳供應到業務通路，加在我們手搖飲裡面，而且這個占比越來越高，難怪本土酪農他們的鮮乳，品牌廠說我不要給你訂那麼多，部長，有沒有這個情況？"],["陳部長駿季：以現在來看，冰磚乳每一年大概一萬七千多噸到一萬八……"],["鍾委員佳濱：都在增加嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：現在到6月的話，它本身的量還在這個範圍之內，沒有暴增得非常厲害。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我是說農業部當時堅持鮮乳標章，未來的食品安全就要以鮮乳標示，這是對的，明年7月1日開始實施，請農業部繼續向酪農宣導，請幫酪農推廣鮮乳的通路，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在就要做，一定要做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，謝謝，也謝謝司長。","接下來問農保的問題，其實上個月財政委員會辦了一個考察，到農會去，農民就反映了很多農業保險的問題，其中就有提到，很多可以申請天然災害救助但是沒有保險的品項，或者是說在檳榔樹之間種香蕉、椰子樹之間種檳榔，只要有檳榔，不被認為農作物的檳榔園裡面種有保險、保單的這些作物，像香蕉，是不是農業保險不保？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是這樣子，就是有間作的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是這樣子，但是你們要知道，我們農民間作，一個農園裡面多種作物間作是常態，有他們的道理，是不是回去評估一下，類似像檳榔園裡面間作香蕉，香蕉也可以來投保，可以考慮嗎？評估一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得可以，但是就是面積要重算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，面積要重算。"],["陳部長駿季：面積要重算，應該是可行的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你面積跟植株要重新計算，可以嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，用這樣的方式，我覺得可以來評估看看。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請指示署長回去研究。","我們來看一下，農友反映的問題環環相扣，臺灣的果品產值占了37%，一年在我們屏東的產值占了大概32億新臺幣，其中香蕉是一個重要作物。但是去年的天災，最近常常去申請天然災害救助的有檸檬，有酪梨，有芒果，對不對？酪梨與芒果有保單嗎？有嗎？目前沒有嘛！所以這些農民有在栽種的品項，保單要不要擴充？品項要不要增加？可以增加嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們對於新保單的開發，當然要看它本身過去的數據夠不夠多，才能夠算它的理賠風險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["陳部長駿季：這個很重要，如果說這個數據是可以開始算的話，我們就會來啟動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["陳部長駿季：然後第二個部分，在啟動的過程中，我們過往都是開發完了以後再去跟農民宣導，其實在保單設計中就應該讓農民來參與。"],["鍾委員佳濱：說得很好。好，所以您剛剛講的有幾個品項，就是說這個農作物的品項要不要開發為農業保險的保單，包括它的種植面積、它的產量有沒有到一定規模、產值是不是夠大，因為你沒有這些基本的量，保險沒辦法做嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：重點是，是不是不會賠錢的才能做？有沒有這個規定？不會賠錢的我們的保單才能做。"],["陳部長駿季：不會啊！我們現在平均理賠率是130%欸！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我就跟你講，你看，聽起來你講得很理直氣壯，理賠率130%欸！就是因為理賠率130%，沒有保險公司要做啦！對不對？保險公司賠錢，它怎麼會做？所以我是說我們農業保險，這個有點讓你為難，一方面你要擴大保單的作物品項內容，二方面你要找到保險公司，如果賠錢它不會做啦！你怎麼叫它都不做啦！所以農金署要想辦法，好不好？可以強人所難嗎？又要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草。"],["陳部長駿季：不過現在商業保單的理賠率是47%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：商業保單是47%，所以還是有錢賺，那就趕快開發啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們賠最多的就是鳳梨釋迦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：鳳梨釋迦我知道賠很多。"],["陳部長駿季：賠得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們會再保嗎？明年就不要做了，會這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我相信他們明年不會保了，因為過去平均幾年……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是說保險公司不承保了，是不是這個意思？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這樣怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：那是政策保險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：政策保險，所以農金署這邊要想辦法，因為保險公司都是截長補短，如果很多品項都有來保，有的保單賠，有的保單賺，保險公司才要做嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你全部的保單都在賠，它就不要做了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們現在賣得最好的保單是什麼？是不是水稻？水稻的覆蓋率怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：水稻是政策型的保險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊！所以統統要保？沒有吧！"],["陳部長駿季：大概八成三。"],["鍾委員佳濱：八成，因為你們第一個，基本型的保險他不用繳保費，都替他保了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：政府出錢嘛！一般加強型保險與優質加強型保險，分兩種，過去說繳售公糧的不能保，現在繳售公糧的可以保嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以保，農民知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：應該知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該知道，應該啦！農糧署我那天有帶他們下去，很多農會沒有積極去宣導，所以很多稻農不知道如果是基本型的不用繳保費，一般加強型與優質加強型的，有繳售公糧的也可以參加，這是不是去年開始的政策？"],["陳部長駿季：對，據我們統計，大概增加了一千多公頃來投保。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，很好！表示這個政策符合農民的需求，加強宣導，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是去年開始，現在我去農會問，他們都不知道耶！他們都不知道原來政府有補助一半，補助一半很好，對不對？","現在我們來看，保費是農民要不要投保的一個關鍵，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們這次要審查的第十條，本來的條文設計，原來的農業作物保險在2020年5月通過，6月實施，現在實施已經快四年多了，所以有在討論費率的問題，為什麼當時你們這個費率5年之內的是75%，第6年之後降為60%？為什麼這樣設計？"],["陳部長駿季：我想當初的立法精神是說，在初期大家對保險不是那麼熟悉，所以政府如果必要的時候可以補助多一點，但是有5年的時間慢慢讓大家瞭解了這些保險的精神以後，應該回到保險基本的一個風險對價關係。"],["鍾委員佳濱：風險自己投資，自己分攤。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是現在有條文把後面的60%拿掉了，只有說5年以內的是多少，沒有5年以後的是多少，如果修法改成5年以內的75%，5年之後的變成85%，你覺得這樣合不合理？"],["陳部長駿季：我們農業部的立場，基本上是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單來講，所有的限時優惠，時間內的越便宜啦！你超過時間來，越晚來越貴，大家才要參加嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們原來的設計就是前高後低，鼓勵農民趕快來參保，對不對？如果改成了前低後高，我就慢慢來啊！是不是這樣子？這樣你瞭解了沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這次第十條的修改如果把這個邏輯破壞掉了，那就是亂修法啦！我們今天沒有逐條審查，今天是詢答而已，我希望農業部在我們實際修改的時候把這個精神說清楚，你前面訂75%，後面訂60%，就是希望前面5年比較優惠，農民趕快來參加，覆蓋率提高，保險才不會賠錢嘛！如果把後面的60%拿掉了，農民說前面75%，我就慢慢等啊！說不定改天會90%全部補助啊！會不會這樣？所以參與率低、保單範圍趕不上農民需求、申訴與協調機制不足以及理賠困難，這些都是目前推動農業保險所面臨的問題，是不是這樣？部長，我們要怎麼樣來推進納保作物的品項？有什麼方法？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得第一個，我剛才也曾經說過，我希望農民對一個作物的保險是持續性的，他每年都能夠投保，而不是用投機的方式，看到風險高就投，風險低就不投，如果他持續性的投保，我們可以考慮他的保費打折，用這種方式來做一個優惠設計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，你要想到促銷和行銷。"],["陳部長駿季：對，類似這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的保單要促銷和行銷，所以過去我從2018年到2024年，5年我問了5次，有三個重點，第一個，要有一個農業金融專屬爭議的協調機構，有沒有在研議了？"],["陳部長駿季：這個有，這個我們有在處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有啦？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有用科技定損的方式，建立遙測資料庫，完善災前災後的對比機制，你們有一個app嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在也在處理，我們現在也在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也在做嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有一點，就是希望你們定期地對農民辦座談會，由農保諮詢委員會辦理定期座談、納入農民意見，有沒有在做？"],["陳部長駿季：有在做，但是我覺得密度還可以再提高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，本席把這三點提出來，包括今天說的品項還有修法，希望農業部繼續加油，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請邱志偉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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本來最多大陸的遊客也沒有過來來了稀稀少少 所謂米家為主 我想他們也不會去這個一個很重要的因素外國旅遊客一天吃一碗不是 一餐吃一碗 一天吃三碗 你要看養的量要多少我們就要想那個土地的貸不是產量控制不足 是他們的旅遊客太多"},{"start":193.015,"end":207.885,"text":"而且他們把米是變成一個意識化很多遊客都去吃 吃一塊 吃一塊米就消失了聽說我們的小日本 我不知道是小日本還是小啦你稍微報告一下 我想到這個問題 我跟你說米 日本的管制機制 非礙於我們"},{"start":214.212,"end":232.404,"text":"第二個,他的理由靠太高每一個人都給他吃了一碗一碗,一天三碗你要看他量要多少,總顏不夠所以這種因素你們要去想我跟你們說,原因是在這裡我了解,我剛才講的就是說他們其實一個國家的"},{"start":233.567,"end":261.849,"text":"作物的生產規劃不只是國內的需求還有外來的需求不要說回答太多啦你的米價就會上漲啦一人吃一碗就不得了了啦好不好禮物客一人一天一餐吃一碗一天三碗米價就會上漲百姓的消息這個良性行為我們去想一下好不好今天主要是說"},{"start":264.146,"end":290.633,"text":"我們的農業保險,保證我是最佳推銷員。我經常在農會,或是在農民節,或是在產銷班,我都說三保一軍,就是我們的農民健康保險,我們的農民職業災害保險,我們的農業保險,我叫我農民的鄉親,他們一定要去保養。但是我在中間的營港,"},{"start":292.964,"end":306.237,"text":"但是我看他們在聽著聽著,叫做什麼言之沉沉,聽之渺渺,就是覺得沒什麼重要。我一直跟你們推銷,我覺得這裡面,你們一定要去研究安裝的方法,讓農民能夠高興,又甘願來跟你們做這個保險地。我今天給農業保險來說,"},{"start":315.615,"end":323.442,"text":"你來看你農業保險的覆蓋率從109人9.5%提升到今年53.8%喔!那數字看起來不錯但是不中我相信你知道這個農業裡面扣到強制保險的項目啊你的覆蓋率不到20%"},{"start":338.532,"end":347.946,"text":"所以這幾年有在推,但是推到不是很成功的你說這個成績,我不能說這樣,農業部很怕病這裏面有一個重要的問題就是臨時天然災害,我們現在選擇"},{"start":355.02,"end":378.137,"text":"農民已經比較容易承受天然災害你們農業股跟他們補助盡 效率又好 肥料又保險的滿意感覺這樣盡率 盡好我雖然補償少一點沒有關係盡就好 看到你們的效率就好所以這天然災害保險啦你說酸肥素我覺得這個不能保民眾已經習慣了"},{"start":379.838,"end":406.647,"text":"有困難找政府,農業部做得很好,天然災害都每次都很快心思反應所以你的農業保險,這裏面就有很多問題第一,我們付出的保費,不然去農業保險保險公司不一定賠,剛剛有講到天氣各方面的問題在因那些銀行吹冷氣的,因那些地產卡在流汗,天氣的變化"},{"start":409.247,"end":421.012,"text":"他們的大腦袋,他不了解天氣的變化有多嚴重所以在這個地方,以金白金融業保險的話保險公司不一定賠"},{"start":422.236,"end":448.548,"text":"我叫我保險,他不一定讓我保險,我怎麼去保險,你再想想看你不要用單純你的想法,你要用農民的想法,要用保險的公司想法現在保管公司只貪你這裡的保險,他貪得很難過他只是表面上,我告訴你,他為了社會,為了這個民生為了進三位社會的責任,我照顧農民,勉勉強強去保險"},{"start":451.909,"end":478.245,"text":"所以這個保費,我們政府提款,要讓我們農民去保險地,這樣農民才會心安,你知道嗎?誘因不足。保費我付了,不一定得到賠償。所以我給你一個概念,你要學政治部,設立一個中小企業保險基金,你農業部,農業維農基金地,這個基金該進行,要出一戶,備謝出一戶。"},{"start":480.95,"end":481.591,"text":"我們現在就有農業保險基金啊"},{"start":495.029,"end":518.3,"text":"好啦,我第一個沒有誘因,因為想了兩次啦還有一個,理賠沒有標準,就我跟你說的那保險公司不曉得農民種什麼,去貨怎麼樣啊沒有標準,不一定能拿到理賠的標準我教你錢,又沒有賠,不然我天然不治所以啊,農民是要對保險沒有信心啊希望這方面加強一下"},{"start":519.803,"end":541.437,"text":"會 謝謝委員的提醒我們也真的在檢討每一張保單那我希望那個保單是涉及到也真的能夠分擔農民的風險但是也不能讓農民說我投保就是溫暖的這個觀念我們大家會持續的宣導這個部分我想我們會強化你說對啦 不是溫暖的啦但是要有保障"},{"start":541.957,"end":546.45,"text":"不然我的天然災害補助,我把你拉到你樓梯,再繳錢給你,再讓你來問,你都不知道這個行為,你想說做得很好"},{"start":551.448,"end":572.119,"text":"農民很怕麻煩,若不是多少錢,不然我找你農業部天然災害補償的時候,這樣就好我一直在強調一點,你去保養沒拿到錢,我又付錢,我沒一定會拿到錢保險的時候是很不穩定,沒一定教育的規矩來"},{"start":573.3,"end":584.25,"text":"那個標準很難定啊天氣的參差很難掌握我要跟你講不要用自己的心在想要想過三明大家想法會怎樣才會做得成功啊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":899,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時59分）謝謝主席，首先有請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳委員超明：沒關係，喝個水再上台。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長你好。剛才蔡委員講到老農津貼，你說我們的公告地價、公告現值已經漲了64%，所以這個排富條款一定要趕快。我也聽到你說經過縝密的計算下個會期一定會拿出來，我希望要趕快拿出來，不然現在去到鄉下，天天都被罵欸！你知道為了你們這樣，我們有多艱苦嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，我們會儘快。"],["陳委員超明：瞭解哦？一定會做哦？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員超明：剛才蔡委員說現在雞蛋因為生產過剩而滯銷，滯銷不是只有去調節市場，你看美國物價上漲，現在的雞蛋1顆、2顆就要200塊，沒有關係，我們與美國的關係那麼好，如果臺灣生產雞蛋的時候我們用飛機把它運過去，我們還划算，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：不可能。"],["陳委員超明：我不是跟你開玩笑哦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們的規模不夠那麼大，而且我們外銷……"],["陳委員超明：你規模小也要去推銷，去打知名度，不要以為小就不做嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：不是啦！外銷不能說你有過剩的才外銷，沒有過剩就……"],["陳委員超明：我現在是在煩惱這個，沒關係，你把它送到美國，我們臺美友誼堅固，堅若磐石，表現我們的誠意，這樣就不會滯銷，讓美國人來感謝臺灣。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，雞蛋的進口有很多檢疫的條件要去談判，所以我們現在……"],["陳委員超明：好啦！我只是提出一個方向，我相信這個是可以解決的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解，謝謝委員的建議。"],["陳委員超明：再來，蔡委員提到米的漲價，日本的米價現在飆漲，你曉得為什麼會飆漲嗎？原因在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：它對年度相關的稻米生產掌握度不夠，所以造成減產。"],["陳委員超明：以日本的掌握度絕對不會不夠，我跟你說實際的原因是什麼，就是日本的旅遊客去得太多，你看臺灣都跑到日本旅遊，世界都跑到日本旅遊，然後吃了日本的米覺得好吃，所以稻米不夠。我們臺灣本來最多的大陸遊客也沒有過來，來得稀稀少少，所以我們米價維持，我相信也不會漲價。","這有一個很重要的因素，外國旅遊客1餐吃1碗，1天吃3碗，你看那個用量要多少？我們要去想那個道理在哪裡，不是產量控制不足，是他們的旅遊客太多，而且他們把米食變成藝術化，很多遊客都去吃，這裡吃一些，那裡吃一些，米就銷售出去。聽說我們也外銷到日本，我不知道銷得多還是少，你稍微報告一下，我是想到這些問題才跟你說，日本對米的管制機制不亞於我們。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員超明：第二個，他的旅遊客太多，每一個人都吃了1碗、1碗，1天3碗，你看那個量要多少，當然不夠嘛！所以這種因素你們要去想，我跟你說，原因是在這裡。"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解，我剛才是說，其實一個國家的作物生產規劃，不只是國內的需求，還有外來的需求。"],["陳委員超明：你知道，像政府在開放，不要說匪諜太多啦！你的米價就會上漲啊！1人吃1碗就不得了，好不好？旅遊客1餐吃1碗，1天3碗……"],["陳部長駿季：我聽不懂你說的。"],["陳委員超明：我們的米價就會上漲，百姓就會笑嘻嘻，這個良性循環去想一下，好不好？","我們今天主要是談農業保險，部長，我是最佳推銷員，我每次在農會，或者是在農民節，或者是在產銷班，我都說三保一金，就是我們的農民健康保險、農民職業災害保險及農業保險，我叫那些農民的鄉親一定要去保險，但是我在上面演講，我看他們這樣聽一聽，叫做什麼？「言之諄諄，聽之藐藐」，就是覺得不太重要。我一直在替你們推銷，我覺得你們一定要去研究用什麼方法可以讓農民高興，而且願意來參加保險。","我今天以農業保險來說，你看你們農業保險的覆蓋率從109年9.5%提升到今年53.8%，數字看起來不錯，但是部長，我相信你知道，農業保險扣掉強制保險的項目，你們的覆蓋率不到20%。"],["陳部長駿季：20.7%。"],["陳委員超明：所以這幾年有在推，但是推得不是很成功，你說這個成績，我不能這樣講啦！你們農業部很努力，這裡面有一個重要的問題，就是領取天然災害補助，我們現在增加，農民已經比較容易承受天然災害，你們農業部給他的補助快，效率又好，賠了之後百姓會滿意，覺得這樣很好，我雖然補償少一點沒有關係，快就好，有看到你們的效率就好，所以這個天然災害保險你說雙軌制，我覺得這個不能保，民眾已經習慣有困難找政府，農業部做得很好，天然災害每次都很快迅速反應，所以你的農業保險裡面有很多問題。","第一個，我們付出保費，我去參加農業保險，保險公司不一定賠，剛剛講到有天氣及各方面的問題在，那麼多銀行都是在吹冷氣，他們怎麼會知道鄉下農民在流汗以及天氣的變化？他們都待在大樓，不瞭解天氣的變化有多嚴重，所以農民每次去申請農業保險理賠，保險公司不一定賠，叫我保險但它不一定理賠，那我何必去保險？你再想想看，你不要單純用你們的想法，你要用農民的想法、要用保險公司的想法。","現在保險公司只有賺你這些保險，它賺得很艱苦欸！它只是表面上，我跟部長說，它為了社會，為了名聲，為了盡社會責任，我要照顧農民才勉勉強強去辦保險，所以我們政府提高保費，要讓農民去保險，這樣農民才會心安，你知道嗎？誘因不足，我付了保費不一定會得到賠償，所以我給你一個概念，你要學經濟部設立一個中小企業保險基金，農業部如果有農業的基金，這個基金跟銀行出一部分，百姓出一部分，你以這個概念來……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在就有農業保險基金。"],["陳委員超明：我曉得你們有，你以為我不知道？不然我問你這麼久，你以為我傻傻的哦？你真的是「看我無」，我告訴你。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我不敢這麼說，我沒有這麼說哦！"],["陳委員超明：好啦！第一個，沒有誘因，因為響鈴兩次了。還有一個，理賠沒有標準，就是我在說的，保險公司不曉得農民種什麼、氣候怎麼樣，沒有標準，不一定能達到理賠的標準，我繳錢給你，你還不賠，要用天然災害的補助，所以農民對保險實在沒有信心，希望這方面能加強一下。"],["陳部長駿季：會，謝謝委員的提醒，我們也真的在檢討每一張保單，我希望保單的設計真正能夠分擔農民的風險，但是也不能讓農民說我投保就是穩賺的，這個觀念我們大概會持續地宣導，這個部分我想我們會強化。"],["陳委員超明：對啦！不是穩賺的，但是要有保障啊！不然我就申請天然災害補助，我還跟你在那邊囉哩囉嗦，繳錢給你們，還讓你們來問，你都不知道這個心理。你知道做得很好，農民很怕麻煩，領那些又沒有多少錢，部長，我找農業部申請天然災害補償就好，那個做得又好。","我一直在強調一點，參加保險沒有拿到錢，我付錢但我不一定領得到錢，保險的時候是很不穩定啊！不一定照它的規矩來，那個標準很難訂啊！天氣的參數很難掌握，我跟你講，不要用自己的心在想，要想到三方的想法會怎樣，才會做得成功，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：會，謝謝委員的建議。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","現在請鍾佳濱委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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部長 現在一起的稻作那現在差不多等於收割啦 對那大概這個禮拜應該都陸續在收那當然現在當然農民比較擔心的是接下來這個蝴蝶颱風這隻蝴蝶會在後面背來背去我們這邊這大家也很高興因為風太大就趁熱 那個季節就會受到影響"},{"start":52.734,"end":71.321,"text":"現在的價格不錯,現在我們推動的量是產業升級方案現在的產地量價百台幣都是一千一百多我現在是要跟你說一百,現在的價格是真的不錯現在的價格大概一百一百五十一百五十,三下過去當然也有九百也有八百,那些都是做肉的"},{"start":78.664,"end":87.129,"text":"去年齁 去年是不錯喔 去年差不多一千二百元 但是去年勒 去年比較高 不然去年沒中 去年稍微缺一點所以今年是很好喔 今年我這樣聽起來 農民有收十八塊 也有十九塊 甚至用料比較好的有拚到二十塊喔"},{"start":98.396,"end":117.515,"text":"他拚到二十塊就有差不多一千一百五十塊的一個收入的話今年對於稻農來說他們是豐收的一年所以我想部長這應該也清楚你去年你要推動的整個糧食政策我覺得這個大方向有朝著你們農業部的一個期待喔我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":119.457,"end":132.215,"text":"去年的平均價在這段時間平均價大概是980左右980、990左右比方去年去年去年一起做今年大概是1100左右啦所以你看嘛我們"},{"start":133.88,"end":144.647,"text":"雖然說沒有像委員要求到公糧到五塊錢我們是希望說糧沒有 民糧能夠拉高對於整個產業都有幫助嗎那的確我們如果民糧拉高的話就對農民來說他會不要繳公糧對啊我賣給民糧我反而還更好啊所以這個才是一個健康的一個糧食的一個方向所以我覺得這個農業的這個價格的"},{"start":158.176,"end":164.959,"text":"就是說糧食價格這件事對農民來說它是最直接有感的所以你們要怎麼樣再繼續去推動讓我們不要說今年好而已以後這種就是要保持著這樣的一個力道我覺得這件事就很重要"},{"start":174.642,"end":195.956,"text":"那當然啦齁,農作就是這樣啦齁,因為我記得我上個月齁,我們在這邊的時候,那我有聽到包括戴華委員,包括廷飛委員,事實上他們在講的,是說他們那裡有遇到災害,他們的稻穀有遇到災害,啊我們嘉義當然沒有,我們現在收起來看起來是齁,整個是一個順利的方向,所以就是說,"},{"start":196.716,"end":222.427,"text":"事實上整個農業受到天然災害的影響啊每個地方會有每個地方的一些差異性就比方啦 就比方我最近我去沙町這樣走沙町的農民也是有很大的一個落差喔今年的果農吃壞 保證你也知道所以說像水養的啦 淋浴的都沒收成 水養 奶雞 淋浴"},{"start":224.148,"end":239.803,"text":"所有都不繳 都沒有繳費啦所以就是沒有收金 所以那裡就沒有啊沒有費就漂亮啦有費啦 有費沒錢啦 沒錢啦所以就看起來說果農的部分今年是收成是不好的"},{"start":241.024,"end":266.249,"text":"大概他們說是因為氣候因素天氣比較冷所以雖然開花可是後來沒有結果所以沒有收成但是氣候冷的對山頂像大米的大農他們今年大豐收對大農賺得很好他們賺今年的茶茶農都收很多所以整個氣候的因素對於農業來說它就是一個"},{"start":268.184,"end":277.111,"text":"第一不穩定第二每一個氣候的一個干擾的一個影響如果不是說一次做大水這種的純粹是氣溫的影響每個作物不一樣他們所需要他們認為適當的那個農作物要成長的溫度不一樣所以這個都會牽扯到的說我們今天在討論農業保險這塊的時候那他的標準怎麼定以及說他們一旦"},{"start":296.466,"end":301.349,"text":"遇到減產的時候要怎麼把這個氣溫的因素討論好我覺得這件事情農業部應該就是要再跟每一個產業別然後應該去討論說現主席這個農業保險他的認定標準是不是有符合這個農產品的品項我想保留這個也很重要吧"},{"start":318.321,"end":339.455,"text":"我就說我們現在會重新檢討每一個保單裡面的天氣山數到底它的數據到底是不是正確性是不是必須再做確認因為一些什麼樣的溫度會什麼樣的影響這可能都需要靠我們的專家去確認我們會重新來檢討那必須調整的我們會立即來調整"},{"start":341.318,"end":362.113,"text":"所以這個很重要啦第二個就是說剛剛很多委員都有講到事實上老農津貼的這個牌幅的這個條款因為14年沒有調整嘛這14年來事實上你看物價的波動消費者物價指數是成長了16%如果你以土地的一個價值的漲幅來講漲了65%"},{"start":364.375,"end":375.079,"text":"所以事實上我也有提案我在上一個會期就提案這個會期我依然是把我上個會期的提案我仍然要求說這個排付條款應該要調整那排付條款要調整咧兩個層面的問題第一類就是說這個土地"},{"start":380.421,"end":407.389,"text":"這個土地就是農民耶他持有土地可是這個土地不應該會造成說我最後我失去我去領這個老農津貼那或者是我的收入是多少我感覺說我們在訂這個排富條款事實上對農民來說是一種剝削而且事實上柏中你可以再認真想喔你也想說有很多農民他可能因為排富的因素有可能他們住在這裏住"},{"start":409.83,"end":436.027,"text":"橋櫃標準他都賣掉或者他要過戶給他的子女他要過戶給子女但是這都會造成家庭的一些狀況啊所以我是覺得這種相對對農民是不公平的所以我們如果站在照顧老農的立場上我真的覺得這個排戶條款應該要檢討甚至我們可以說是不是可以讓這個排日條款就進入就讓他落日了部長"},{"start":436.747,"end":448.415,"text":"我非常認同委員所提的委員一直常常關心這些老農津貼的排富的部分因為像委員講的如果因為排富設定的不好"},{"start":449.264,"end":466.34,"text":"被逼著要賣房子造成後面的分家有沒有會造成更大的困擾所以我們也針對剛才您所提的土地的公告限值過去這麼多年來漲幅了百分之六十幾那這個部分我們有重新去試算包括你的所得包括你的財產的所財產的總額"},{"start":469.282,"end":484.622,"text":"還有一個你如果自住房的這些可以扣抵的我們都有適度的做調整根據相關的一個公式那我們希望說這樣透過這樣的一個比較制度化的公式那後續我們就可以每隔四年就可以滾動同步來檢討"},{"start":485.763,"end":509.828,"text":"而不是純粹只是調整那個CPI而已還可以排富可以同步的去做一個處理那這個部分我想我們預計在下個會期我們在這個會期就會送到行政院去經過審議然後下個會期會進到立法院來做處理好 我想部長事實上我們對於農業的照顧對於農民的照顧是最基礎的一塊"},{"start":510.788,"end":535.268,"text":"所以雖然說大家都說老農今天造成政府幾十億的預算的支出但是這都是必要支出啊因為這樣的農業人口我們要希望他可以留在農村這個對農村才是實質的有幫助所以這點我覺得保證我們真的要檢討好一個比較好的方式讓這一些老農他們活得有尊嚴事實上你說每個月才領個8100塊也不是很多啦那說實在的不是這麼多啦"},{"start":538.911,"end":545.377,"text":"事實上這個錢只是說 因為他就是有務農 他過去的務農那我們希望他繼續留在農村 縱使老農沒做啊他沒實際下去做啊 實際上老農是都拚到七六八六到八十幾要做的啦但是就算他沒做啊 他帶他的經驗穿修給他學一年這也是很好的 農村就是需要這些人留在農村啊 好不好"},{"start":562.853,"end":590.98,"text":"我想我一定會朝這個方向來努力我也相信我們的版本應該會讓委員滿意啦好最後我再問一下就是說最近開始有人在說雞蛋的產能過剩因為我們知道說目前我們的雞蛋它的日產量是12萬8千箱事實上已經超過國人的需求"},{"start":592.68,"end":596.922,"text":"所以有一點產能過剩事實上這就開始反而產能過剩就會有後續的狀況的演變尤其現在也要放暑假 暑假後一些像營養午餐都沒有再供應這會造成雞蛋的需求可能會相對減少所以這件事是補充 我覺得要注意一下"},{"start":612.788,"end":634.877,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒我對雞蛋的議題一直非常關心特別是除了雞蛋的日產能以外我覺得一個非常重要的是雞蛋的庫存也要同步考慮因為庫存有時候他們在做市場機制調節的時候可能庫存壓力更大的時候它就會降價它不見得直接反映到每一天的蛋產能"},{"start":636.097,"end":647.55,"text":"所以這個部分我們已經用一個比較有科學依據的這些調查系統去收集這個資料然後我們也針對彈廠的升級我們也在處理所以我們希望說這個彈能夠"},{"start":649.737,"end":669.425,"text":"維持在市場機制之下但是也不會過於太低或太高太低就影響農民的權益這個我想我們會來努力部長事實上大家最近看到像日本他們發生了米的價格飆漲然後他們的米的需求看起來供給不夠需求"},{"start":671.306,"end":688.515,"text":"事實上大家都在檢討啦所以每一個國家遇到這樣的狀況但是如果有一些狀況我們看到那些徵兆提早來佈局就可以防止類似這樣的狀況的發生這個非常重要就是說我們在徵兆一開始的時候就要進場去處理啦不然等事情"},{"start":689.495,"end":697.42,"text":"變得很嚴重的時候 那有時候很多事情後面的處理都很難做很難處理 因為到後面的時候 講最白的啦每一次的這種需求問題都是問題都是出在恐慌啦 民眾的恐慌心態這個恐慌心態一旦嚇起來政府這個手怎麼出力 也不夠白色 大家緊張所以我們要事先的佈局把它準備好 就可以防止一些可能的狀況發生"},{"start":718.772,"end":720.74,"text":"好不好好謝謝委員提醒好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":823,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時47分）謝謝召委，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，現在一期稻作差不多正在收割，這個禮拜應該都陸續在收，現在農民比較擔心的是接下來這個蝴蝶颱風，這隻蝴蝶會不會亂飛就飛來我們這邊，這是大家會擔憂的。"],["陳部長駿季：我們有在關心。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為如果颱風進來就會造成搶收啊，那個價格就會受到影響。"],["陳部長駿季：現在的價格不錯，我們推動了糧食產業升級方案，現在的產地糧價都是百台斤一千一百多元。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我現在是要讓你說這個啦，現在價格是真的不錯，現在的價格大概……"],["陳部長駿季：一千一百多，1,150元。"],["蔡委員易餘：100斤差不多1,150元上下。"],["陳部長駿季：過去才九百多元而已。"],["蔡委員易餘：過去當然也有900元、800元那種價格很差的時候，去年的價格不錯，去年差不多1,200元，但是去年……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，去年比較高，不過去年沒量，去年收不到稻穀，所以今年很好，今年我這樣聽起來，農民有收18割、19割，甚至比較好的可以拚到20割，他拚到20割，如果有辦法賣到1,150元的價格，今年對於稻農來說是豐收的一年。部長，我想這應該也有你去年說要推動整個糧食政策的因素，我覺得這個大方向有朝著你們農業部的一個期待喔！"],["陳部長駿季：對，跟委員報告，去年在這段時間的平均價大概是980元左右，980元、990元左右。"],["蔡委員易餘：你說去年喔？"],["陳部長駿季：去年的一期作。今年大概是1,100元左右啦，所以你看嘛，我們雖然沒有達到委員要求的公糧到5塊錢，我們是希望民糧能夠拉高，對於整個產業都有幫助嘛，的確，我們……"],["蔡委員易餘：如果民糧拉高的話，對農民來說，他未必要繳公糧了，賣給民糧反而還更好啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！而且我們的數據……"],["蔡委員易餘：這才是健康的糧食的方向。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我覺得糧食價格這件事，對農民來說，他是最直接有感的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你們要怎麼樣再繼續去推動，讓價格不只是今年好而已，就是要保持這樣的一個力道……"],["陳部長駿季：會，這個我們一定會加強……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這件事就很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，農作就是這樣啦！因為我記得上個月、我們在這邊的時候，我有聽到包括岱樺委員，包括亭妃委員，他們在講他們那邊的稻穀有遇到災害，我們嘉義當然沒有，我們現在收起來，看起來整個方向是順利的，所以事實上整個農業受到天然災害的影響，每個地方會有……"],["陳部長駿季：會不一樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：每一個地方的一些差異性。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：就比方啦，比方最近我去山上走，山上那邊的農民也有很大的落差，今年的果農很差，部長你也知道，種「檨仔」（芒果）的啦、種龍眼的都沒有收成……"],["陳部長駿季：像檨仔、荔枝、龍眼。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有荔枝，說都沒有「著花」啦，就是沒有授精，所以那顆就沒有了。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，花很漂亮啦……"],["蔡委員易餘：有花啦，有花沒有籽啦，沒有「著仔」啦。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有「著果」（結果）啦。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以看起來果農的部分今年的收成是不好的。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：他們說大概是因為氣候因素，天氣比較冷，所以雖然開花，可是後來沒有結果，所以沒有收成。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是氣候冷，對山上種茶葉的茶農，喔，他們今年大豐收……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：對茶農反而好，他們今年的茶，哇，茶農都收很多。所以整個氣候的因素對於農業來說，就是第一，不穩定；第二，每一個氣候的干擾、影響，如果不是一次「做大水」（水災）這種的，若純粹是氣溫的影響……"],["陳部長駿季：每個作物都不一樣。對。"],["蔡委員易餘：每個作物不一樣。他們所需要，他們認為適當的農作物要成長的溫度不一樣，所以這個都會牽扯到，我們今天在討論農業保險這塊的時候，標準怎麼訂，以及說他們一旦遇到減產的時候，要怎麼把氣溫的因素討論好，我覺得這件事情，農業部應該就是要再跟每一個產業別去討論，現在這個農業保險的認定標準是不是有符合他們這個農產品的品項，我想部長這個也很重要吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。我就說，我們現在會重新檢討每一個保單裡面天氣參數的數據正確性是不是必須再做確認，因為什麼樣的溫度會有什麼樣的影響，這可能都需要靠我們的專家去確認……"],["蔡委員易餘：是。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會重新檢討，必須調整的我們會立即來調整。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，所以這個很重要。","第二個，剛剛很多委員都有講到，事實上老農津貼的排富條款，因為14年沒有調整了，這14年來，事實上你看物價的波動，消費者物價指數成長了16%，如果以土地的價值漲幅來說，漲了65%，所以事實上我也有提案，我在上一個會期就提案，這個會期我依然是把我上個會期的提案，我仍然要求這個排富條款應該要調整。","排富條款要調整，涉及兩個層面的問題：第一個就是農民持有土地，可是這個土地不應該造成他最後失去領老農津貼的資格，或者是他的收入是多少，我覺得我們定這個排富條款，事實上對農民來說是一種剝削。而且，部長，你也可以再認真想，你想如果有很多農民可能因為排富的因素，有可能他家裡的房子超過標準，他要把它賣掉，或者他要過戶給他的子女，但是這都會造成家庭的一些狀況啊！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這相對地對農民是不公平的，我們如果在照顧老農的立場上，我真的覺得這個排富條款應該要檢討，甚至我們是不是可以讓這個排富條款落日了？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同委員所提的，委員也一直長年關心老農津貼的排富條款，像委員講的，如果因為排富設定的不好被逼著要賣房子，造成後面的分家等等問題，會造成更大的困擾，所以我們也針對剛才您所提的，土地的公告現值，過去這麼多年來，漲幅高達百分之六十幾，這個部分我們有重新去試算，包括你的所得，包括你的財產總額，還有一個你如果自住房的這些可以扣抵的，我們都有適度的做調整，根據相關的公式，我們希望透過這樣一個比較制度化的公式，後續我們就可以每隔四年就滾動同步來檢討，而不是純粹只是調整那個CPI而已，排富的部分還可以同步的去做處理。這個部分我們預計在下個會期，我們在這個會期就會送到行政院去經過審議，然後下個會期會進到立法院來做處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。部長，事實上我們對於農業的照顧、對於農民的照顧是最基礎的一塊，雖然大家都說老農津貼造成政府幾十億的預算支出，但是這都是必要支出啊！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為這樣的農業人口，我們希望他可以留在農村，這個對農村才有實質的幫助。所以這一塊我覺得，部長，我們真的要檢討一個比較好的方式，讓這些老農活得有尊嚴。你說每個月才領個8,100塊，也不是很多啦，說實在的不是很多啦。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上這個錢只是說，因為他過去就是務農，我們希望他繼續留在農村，縱使老農沒做了，他沒有實際耕作了，實際上老農是都拼到七老八老，到八十幾歲還能做，不過就算他沒做了，他把他的經驗傳授給下一代，這也是很好的，農村就是需要這些人留在農村啊，好不好？我覺得這個制度……"],["陳部長駿季：對。我想我一定會朝這個方向來努力，我也相信我們的版本應該會讓委員滿意啦。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。最後我再問一下，最近開始有人在說雞蛋的產能過剩，因為我們知道，目前我們的雞蛋日產量是12萬8,000箱，已經超過國人的需求，所以有一點產能過剩，就會開始煩惱產能過剩有後續的狀況演變，尤其現在也要放暑假了，暑假後像營養午餐就不再供應，這個會造成雞蛋的需求可能會相對減少，這件事情，部長，我覺得要注意一下。"],["陳部長駿季：是。我要謝謝委員的提醒，我對雞蛋的議題一直非常關心，特別是除了雞蛋的日產能以外，我覺得非常重要的是雞蛋的庫存也要同步考慮。因為庫存有時候他們在做市場機制調節的時候，可能庫存壓力更大的時候就會降價，不見得直接反映到每一天的蛋產能……"],["蔡委員易餘：是。沒有錯。"],["陳部長駿季：就這個部分，我們已經用一個比較有科學依據的調查系統去蒐集相關資料，然後針對蛋場的升級我們也在處理，我們希望在市場機制之下能夠維持蛋的價格，但是也不會過於太低或太高，太低就會影響農民的權益，這個我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，大家最近看到像日本，他們出現了米的價格飆漲，然後他們米的供給看起來不夠需求，事實上每一個國家遇到這樣的狀況大家都會檢討，但是如果有一些狀況，我們如果看到徵兆能夠提早布局，就可以防止類似狀況的發生。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個非常重要，我們在徵兆一開始的時候就要進場去處理，不然等事情變得很嚴重的時候，去處理就……"],["蔡委員易餘：是，有時很多事情後面要處理都很難做……"],["陳部長駿季：對，很難處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：都很難做，因為到後面的時候，講最白的，每一次這種需求問題，問題都是出在恐慌，民眾的恐慌心態……"],["陳部長駿季：對啦，是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這種恐慌心態一旦瀰漫開來，我們政府的手怎麼出力也無法安撫大家的緊張，所以我們如果能夠事先布局準備好，就可以防止一些可能的狀況發生，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒。謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","我們現在請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 請交通部陳次長好 交通部陳次長呃 委員好呃 次長好 次長這個今天有幾個問題齁 來救教一下次長第一個就是那個微型電動二輪車嘛齁是我看他現在掛牌時間大概"},{"start":30.285,"end":33.33,"text":"一段期間市長你知道現在掛牌總數有多少嗎這裡好像是"},{"start":46.919,"end":59.726,"text":"跟委員報告就是微型電動二輪車的話目前我們大概是有32萬多32萬多輛目前掛牌的這不含那個買了沒掛牌那種掛牌有32萬多那機車掛牌有多少"},{"start":67.273,"end":78.137,"text":"機車大概一千四百多萬輛一千多萬輛那微型電動二輪車以一百一十三年來講它的事故數有多少"},{"start":95.965,"end":117.321,"text":"各位有沒有113年事故件數是有9800件那機車有多少這邊可能還要再查如果我的數字沒錯應該2萬多件如果我的數字沒錯因為掛牌總數我查起來的數字跟你們不一樣沒關係以你們的數字為主所以掛牌總數"},{"start":119.673,"end":131.977,"text":"跟機車兩個微型電動二輪車跟機車的數量跟事故來比你可以很明顯發現微型電動二輪車事故發生的比例遠高於機車就簡單講就是說我們講道安那現在我們發現有一種載具它其實比機車更危險因為你發生事故的比例這個微型電動二輪車遠高於機車"},{"start":149.977,"end":176.548,"text":"好 那問題來了 我們在講道安 道安修法做交通安全各式的宣導 從政策預算包括在立法院 包括在行政院我們都希望減少人民財產生命的損傷但有一種東西 它很嚴重但我們其實沒有什麼管理的策略 甚至我們也很少討論"},{"start":178.087,"end":200.92,"text":"譬如說我舉例你們現在除了我們除了規定14歲到17歲是可以騎啦如果未達14歲騎我們有罰則嘛對不對好那14歲到17歲騎他其實沒有任何限制只有年齡的限制你14歲高了你就可以開始騎這個微型電動的二輪車市長"},{"start":208.165,"end":230.657,"text":"這個車禍的比例遠高於機車它的形態 你如果沒有認真去探究 它的形態其實就是機車嘛它跟電動腳踏車不一樣 電動腳踏車有踏板需要踩踏但微型電動二輪車 它坐在旁邊跟摩托車一樣 吹下去就走 只是它的速限"},{"start":232.269,"end":257.664,"text":"25公里而已啦但是25公里在馬路上他的行為跟他的樣態基本上跟機車是一模一樣好 市長有沒有什麼方法 交通部看完這個數字之後我們希望減輕人民的生命財產的損傷交通部對於微型電動二輪車有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":261.773,"end":288.035,"text":"我想跟委員做一個說明就是微型電動二輪車因為也是因為基於以前沒有納管所以產生了一些問題所以我們把它特別定義叫微型電動二輪車那微型電動二輪車當時在制定它的相關的一個領牌或者是管理的規定裡頭其實就是該比照機車的幾乎都比照了唯獨就是駕照的部分"},{"start":288.683,"end":317.272,"text":"那所以在這部分其實我們也有在其他的場合也有特別提到說對於賣出電動二輪車的這個經銷商其實要能夠告訴買車的相關的一個行駛要注意事項等等的那如果現在有看到這樣的一個問題剛才也特別提到就是說希望我們陸正道安司能夠對電動二輪車相關事故的防治能夠有相關的一個提出相關的因應的措施那這一部分呢我想我們可以考慮好"},{"start":319.293,"end":334.524,"text":"這個應該要考慮了啦應該要考慮了嘛你們都是專家啦就是說我不是專家但當時在納管的時候我是支持的為什麼當時我跟交通部也建議過為什麼因為當時有很多我們的外籍移工"},{"start":335.715,"end":349.934,"text":"買了這個車子然後呢可能Maybe做了一些不好的事情可是我們沒有任何對他辨識度沒有任何辨識啦所以基於治安基於交通等等我們做了一些納管"},{"start":350.885,"end":368.696,"text":"但是這個納管它成長的速度非常的快再來如果你以跟機車來比它發生生命財產損失的機會遠高於機車所以未來它一定是一個問題所以我們從開放之後納管"},{"start":369.704,"end":397.887,"text":"我覺得光走到這裡是不足的應該我們還要有繼續往下走的下一步那到底怎麼樣的方法好讓人民也覺得普遍這樣做是對的這個就要交通部的專家很多資源也很多你們應該緊述的來研議相關的辦法怎麼來做這些事情這件事情要該怎麼來處理才會把他的人民的這種生命財產的損失降低不然他"},{"start":399.208,"end":426.773,"text":"說起來開那麼多錢在做機車安全不管是辦講座啦 宣導啦 一大堆的但事實上機車都要比那個微型電動二輪車安全很多如果這兩個拿來比的話所以這個是特別跟次長提醒會後趕快去研究那研究有結論的三個月半年你們趕快給我到底你們要怎麼來做啦好不好 我等著你們的報告第二個事情啊"},{"start":428.186,"end":441.143,"text":"台中機場連外道路因為長遠我們叫捷運局限我也很謝謝交通部你們陳部長在我的這個督促要求拜託底下你們願意補助台中市政府"},{"start":442.229,"end":461.955,"text":"願意就是說本來台中市政府該做的事情因為他不做那我們要求中央給他這個可言的預算讓他延伸到海線所以謝謝交通部願意出這一條本來市政府該做的事情那不管怎麼樣中央做了協助地方來做了這件事情那"},{"start":464.045,"end":490.264,"text":"長線我要麻煩交通部對於那個進度必須緊盯我們現在要求他做可言是希望這個可言的結果能夠他跟他原來所提的局限的計畫能夠一併來核定能夠一併來核定而不是漏掉最後面那一段那這是長期計畫那還有短期也就是本席一直在要求我們在短期捷運局限還沒有辦法完成對於清泉崗機場"},{"start":493.802,"end":511.276,"text":"這個客戶的服務我們長期還沒有辦法達成之前短期應該要有相對應的車輛就是包括公車啊或者等等觀光巴士啊這個部分我希望市長在16號的考察裡面"},{"start":512.537,"end":537.294,"text":"19號的考察裡面希望次長你們可以給我做一個簡報到底台中市政府跟交通部怎麼去做這個旅客的這些輸運你們也知道嘛這個輸運一定要對症下藥啦因為沒有飛機班次就可以節省那有飛機班次的時間反而應該密集讓使用者覺得這個交通網絡很方便這個大眾運輸網絡很方便這個我等著你們19號"},{"start":542.057,"end":555.092,"text":"的報告好不好你們19號再跟我提出詳細的報告那針對今天的修法本席也有提案那我的提案其實很簡單你看我們一樣從數字上來做管理你就可以發現"},{"start":556.854,"end":580.949,"text":"我們對於酒駕是零容忍我們立法院這麼多年來也不斷對於酒駕的法令越修越嚴格然後呢我們的執法單位警政執法單位把酒駕也列為很重要的執法目標所以也很鼓勵員警對酒駕的取締要加強我覺得這個都很好但如果我們反過來你可以看到這個酒駕以2023年來看這個酒駕數啊"},{"start":587.534,"end":594.522,"text":"2022、2023最近這兩年你看2022的酒駕的案件是7863跟7954但無照駕駛的案件是53000多跟55000多就一個數字是7000多一個數字是5萬多"},{"start":606.255,"end":616.661,"text":"所以我們對於酒駕導致死亡 甚至無照駕駛的死亡案件 死亡這個是763 2023年 酒駕是253所以如果我們從數字來看 你就會發現這個無照駕駛對於人民生命財產的損失衝擊"},{"start":627.304,"end":653.83,"text":"其實他絕對不比酒駕來得輕微所以我們對於酒駕過去我們對於無照過去就是花錢嘛就花花錢花錢所以你看這個數字啊一直高選沒辦法下來所以本席才會提議說如果無照導致重傷或致死我們應該就要取消他考照的這個資格"},{"start":655.305,"end":664.106,"text":"就我們一定要有一些對他的一些處分不能只有罰錢就解決就在行政上面那當然"},{"start":665.796,"end":694.855,"text":"他的致死跟重傷他有另外的刑事責任這個我們姑且不能在行政上面我覺得應該要更嚴格那本席要更嚴格我很歡迎你們來討論就是說如果你們覺得本席的嚴格你們有更有效的方法其實我們不是真的要怎樣我們只是阻止這種悲劇的發生要讓這個數字下來但如果部裡面有更好的建議就怎麼樣加重可以讓數字下來"},{"start":696.056,"end":710.01,"text":"那我也歡迎來討論或者來修正但本席必須要藉著今天的時間要告訴透過數字上來看無照駕駛致人死傷其實這個也很嚴重這個是酒駕的"},{"start":713.106,"end":732.732,"text":"不到十倍但也七八倍有啦所以這個是很驚人的數字所以我們要想辦法從數字的管理上我們要讓這個數字下來這個數字下來 數字是冷冰的但是數字下來所代表的意涵就是保障更多人生命跟財產的安全次長你覺得同不同意"},{"start":733.87,"end":748.048,"text":"也謝謝委員的提醒從這個數字我們也看到其實我交通部也看到就是說跟這個酒駕的這個比例是很懸殊所以是我們在今天的專案報告裡面或者是在這打選裡頭"},{"start":748.729,"end":773.743,"text":"大概都多次談到就是後有關無照駕駛的修法的一個方向我們原則上是比照酒駕的一個處理的一個方式來對於不管是罰款的提高也好或是呃旅販的一個處罰或者是駕照的吊扣吊銷或終身不得考照或者是那一部車做一些吊銷的一個處理等等的我們其實是配套的一起在做處理好希望我們進入"},{"start":775.206,"end":775.909,"text":"調穩的時候我們可以再進一步來討論"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":650,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時39分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳次長。"],["主席：好，交通部陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長好。次長，今天有幾個問題來就教一下次長，第一個是微型電動二輪車，我看它掛牌時間大概有一段期間了，次長，你知道現在掛牌總數有多少嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：請局長說明。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，微型電動二輪車的話，目前大概有三十二萬多輛。"],["蔡委員其昌：就是目前掛牌的，不含買了沒掛牌那一種。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：掛牌有三十二萬多嘛！"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：那機車掛牌有多少？"],["陳局長文瑞：機車大概有一千四百多萬輛。"],["蔡委員其昌：一千多萬輛。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，微型電動二輪車以113年來講，它的事故數有多少？知道嗎？"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，113年事故件數有九千八百多件。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那機車有多少？"],["黃司長運貴：這邊我可能還要再查。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果我的數字沒錯，應該是兩萬多件啦！如果我的數字沒錯，因為掛牌總數我查起來的數字跟你們不一樣，沒關係，以你們的數字為主，所以微型電動二輪車跟機車的數量、事故來比，你可以很明顯發現微型電動二輪車事故發生的比例遠高於機車，簡單講就是道安啦！現在我們發現有一種載具其實比機車更危險，因為發生事故的比例，微型電動二輪車是遠高於機車。","那問題來了，我們在講道安、道安修法，做交通安全各式的宣導，從政策、預算，包括在立法院、包括在行政院，我們都希望減少人民財產生命的損傷，但有一種東西很嚴重，可是我們沒有什麼管理的策略，甚至我們也很少討論，譬如說我舉例，我們除了規定14歲到17歲是可以騎，如果未達14歲騎，我們有罰責嘛！對不對？14歲到17歲騎，他其實是沒有任何限制，只有年齡的限制，就是你滿14歲之後就可以開始騎微型電動二輪車，次長，它的車禍比例遠高於機車，你如果認真去探究，它的型態其實就是機車嘛！它和電動腳踏車不一樣，電動腳踏車有踏板需要踩踏，但微型電動二輪車他騎在上面跟機車一樣，油門催下去就會跑，只是它的速限是25公里而已，但是25公里在馬路上，他的行為和樣態基本上跟機車是一模一樣。次長，有沒有什麼方法？交通部看完這個數字之後，我們希望減輕人民生命財產的損傷，交通部對於微型電動二輪車有沒有什麼想法？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員做一個說明，微型電動二輪車基於以前沒有納管而產生了一些問題，所以我們把它特別定義，叫微型電動二輪車。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳次長彥伯：那微型電動二輪車當時在制定它的領牌或者是管理的規定裡頭，其實該比照機車的幾乎都比照，唯獨就是駕照的部分，所以我們在其他的場合也有特別提到，對於賣出電動二輪車的經銷商其實要能夠告訴買車的人相關的行駛注意事項等等。如果現在有看到這樣的問題，剛才也特別提到，希望我們路政及道安司對電動二輪車相關事故的防制能夠提出因應措施，這部分我想我們可以考慮。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，這個應該要考慮了啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：訓練的部分應該來考慮。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該要考慮了嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們都是專家啦！我不是專家，但當時在納管的時候我是支持的，當時我跟交通部也建議過，為什麼？因為當時有很多外籍移工買了這個車子，然後maybe做了一些不好的事情，可是我們對他沒有任何的辨識度、沒有任何辨識啦！所以基於治安、基於交通等等，我們做了一些納管，但是它成長的速度非常的快。再來，如果與機車來比，它發生生命財產損失的機會遠高於機車，未來它一定是一個問題，所以我們從開放之後納管，我覺得光走到這裡是不足的，我們應該要有繼續往下走的下一步。","到底怎麼樣的方法好？讓人民普遍覺得這樣做是對的，交通部的專家很多，資源也很多，你們應該儘速研議相關的辦法，怎麼來做這件事情，這件事情該怎麼來處理才會把人民的生命財產損失降低？不然說起來花那麼多錢在做機車安全，不管你是辦講座啦、宣導啦！一大堆，但事實上機車都要比微型電動二輪車安全很多，如果這兩個拿來比的話。所以特別跟次長提醒，會後趕快去研究，研究有結論了，3個月、半年，你們趕快給我，到底你們要怎麼來做，好不好？我等著你們的報告。"],["陳次長彥伯：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二件事情，臺中機場聯外道路，長遠我們叫捷運橘線，我也很謝謝交通部，你們陳部長在我的督促、要求、拜託底下，你們願意補助臺中市政府，就是說本來臺中市政府該做的事情，因為它不做，我們要求中央給它可研的預算，讓它延伸到海線，所以謝謝交通部願意出這一條本來市政府該做的事情。不管怎麼樣，中央做了，協助地方來做這件事情，那長線我要麻煩交通部，對於進度必須緊盯，我們現在要求做可研是希望可研的結果跟它原來所提的橘線計畫能夠一併來核定，而不是漏掉最後面那一段，這是長期計畫。","另外還有短期，也就是本席一直在要求，我們在短期捷運橘線還沒有辦法完成對於清泉崗機場的客戶服務，長期還沒有辦法達成之前，短期應該要有相對應的車輛，包括公車或者觀光巴士等等，這個部分我希望次長你們在19日考察的時候可以給我做一個簡報，到底臺中市政府與交通部怎麼去做旅客的疏運，你們也知道嘛！疏運一定要對症下藥啦！沒有飛機班次時就可以節省，有飛機班次的時間反而應該密集，讓使用者覺得交通網絡很方便、大眾運輸網絡很方便，這個我等著你們19日的報告，好不好？你們19日再跟我提出詳細的報告。","針對今天的修法，本席也有提案，我的提案其實很簡單，你看，我們一樣從數字上來做管理，你就可以發現我們對於酒駕是零容忍，立法院這麼多年來不斷地對於酒駕的法令越修越嚴格，然後警政執法單位也把酒駕列為很重要的執法目標，很鼓勵員警對酒駕的取締要加強，我覺得這個都很好。但如果我們反過來，你可以看到，以2022、2023年的酒駕數來看，最近這兩年的酒駕案件是7,863件跟7,954件，但無照駕駛的案件是五萬三千多件跟五萬五千多件，一個數字是七千多，一個數字是五萬多。對於酒駕導致死亡，無照駕駛的死亡案件在2023年是763人，酒駕是253人，所以如果我們從數字來看，你就會發現無照駕駛對於人民生命財產的損失和衝擊絕對不比酒駕來得輕微。","我們對於無照，過去就是罰錢嘛！只有罰鍰而已，所以你看這個數字一直高懸沒辦法下來，因此本席才會提議說如果無照導致重傷或致死，應該就要取消他考照的資格，一定要對他有一些處分，不能只有罰錢就解決，這是在行政上面，當然致死與重傷的部分有另外的刑事責任，這個我們姑且不論，在行政上面我覺得應該要更嚴格。本席要更嚴格，但我很歡迎你們來討論，如果你們覺得本席的嚴格，你們有更有效的方法，其實我們不是真的要怎樣，我們只是阻止這種悲劇的發生，要讓這個數字下來，但如果部裡面有更好的建議，怎麼樣加重可以讓數字下來，我也歡迎你們來討論或者來修正。不過本席必須要藉著今天的時間來告訴次長，透過數字來看，無照駕駛致人死傷其實也很嚴重，它不到酒駕的10倍，但也有7、8倍啦！這是很驚人的數字，所以我們要想辦法從數字的管理上讓這個數字下來，數字是冰冷的，但是數字下來所代表的意涵就是保障更多人生命及財產的安全，次長，你覺得同不同意？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，也謝謝委員的提醒，從這個數字來看，其實交通部也看到它跟酒駕的比例是很懸殊，所以在今天的專案報告或是在答詢裡頭，我都多次談到爾後有關無照駕駛的修法方向，我們原則上是比照酒駕的處理方式，不管是罰鍰的提高也好或是屢犯的處罰，或者是駕照的吊扣、吊銷或終身不得考照，或者是那一部車做一些吊銷的處理等等，我們其實是配套的一起在做處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，希望我們進入條文的時候……"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們再跟委員討教。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們可以再進一步來討論。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","現在請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra 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人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162446","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162446","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c90b4bd7131688ac268c2a0f21558b58c3643b132f871dcdd8303c495862b7e09b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:30:19 - 11:39:03","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T11:30:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T11:39:03+08:00","duration":524,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.72659375,"end":7.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.35471875,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.87784375,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.239718750000002,"end":30.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.34221875,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.04659375,"end":35.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.400968750000004,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.71721875,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.35846875,"end":48.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.712843750000005,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.563468750000006,"end":90.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":91.18971875000001,"end":97.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":97.12971875000001,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.33534375,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":106.02284375,"end":107.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":107.86221875000001,"end":114.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.15221875,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":115.43909375000001,"end":116.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.89034375000001,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.88096875000001,"end":124.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":123.18471875,"end":123.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":123.23534375000001,"end":123.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.99034375000001,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.60034375,"end":139.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.66784375,"end":138.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.19909375,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.29971875,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.30784375000002,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":146.67471875,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.40846875,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.40346875,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.24721875,"end":163.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.68471875,"end":181.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.84221875,"end":187.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.69784375,"end":196.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.96221875,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.21471875,"end":203.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":203.49284375000002,"end":208.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":208.97721875000002,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":209.16284375,"end":210.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.80409375000002,"end":210.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.49596875,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":210.69846875000002,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":211.79534375,"end":211.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.87971875000002,"end":218.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.01784375000003,"end":219.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.70971875,"end":241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謝謝主席 主席我們請交通部政次 陳次長好 交通部陳次長市長好 市長我想一開始當然要針對個時事來救教我想大家看到新聞說史喆即將接任這個臺灣高鐵公司董事長然後想請問一下那個 市長我們現在交通部派在高鐵董事會的代表幾位"},{"start":33.362,"end":54.747,"text":"市長知道嗎還是兩位兩位嘛 兩位嘛一個是我們吳東霖嘛 一個是這個這個交通部綜合計畫師的副市長吳東霖一位是我們鐵道局的楊振軍局長代表人所以我們派兩位在所謂高鐵公司的董事會裡面是是那高鐵公司董事會成員裡面包含了"},{"start":55.947,"end":80.489,"text":"這個裁判法人中華航空事業的發展基金會航發會然後包含中鋼公司包含台航公司包含行政院國發基金管理會然後包含說東雲機電然後包含台北富邦銀行以上是董事會的成員那我們現任的高鐵公司董事長他是來自於航發會的代表人鄭光遠他現在擔任高鐵公司董事長那我想請教一下我剛剛講的這些董事會成員裡面就剛好沒有死者嘛"},{"start":81.149,"end":106.517,"text":"那我想問說如果矢澤能夠去擔任高鐵公司董事長的話他是以什麼樣的身份他具備董事會的哪一個成員的身份他能夠來擔任董事長我想後續呢大概就會有一個這個推派的一個指定的一個程序那個武政是因為這個業務是你是不是可以上來可以可以恭喜那因為"},{"start":107.932,"end":114.267,"text":"那個吳政事他是主管那個鐵道所以這個部分是不是請他幫忙一下"},{"start":115.342,"end":141.551,"text":"董事長謝謝當然要當董事長一定必須是這個董事的身份才可以對那他現在還沒有現在應該現在是我今天有看他文行政院核定是他未來會當董事長但是他的董事我要看一下應該是依照行發會的董事代表他是用行發會不是用交通部的嗎不是他行發會屬不屬於交通部投資轉投資的"},{"start":143.499,"end":147.548,"text":"單位他算你們投資財團法人嗎財團法人"},{"start":149.488,"end":174.123,"text":"那我想依據它如果既然是交通部投資的財團法人那你們有一個所謂的交通部與所屬事業機構派任公民事業機構及財團法人機構領選的這個標準一個領選標準不管你派任機構還是財團法人裡面有一個機關代表領選除工會推派的董事之外應該劇烈幾個資格第一個企業的經營管理具有豐富學識跟經驗"},{"start":175.023,"end":198.53,"text":"第二個 他的專長適合該事業或財團法人需要第三個 現身職務與該事業或財團法人業務有密切關係第四 投資該公司的公民營事業機構現任董事長 或者是總經理或副總 有這四個條件那我想問一下兩位次長 那請問一下你們覺得使者適用這個GRAVE D裡面的哪一條他可能會適用哪一條 他可以去行發會擔任 所謂的"},{"start":201.277,"end":217.985,"text":"董事然後進入高雷公司擔任董事我想呃呃呃使得政委他有他的專業性是是他有他的專業性是好啦沒關係啦不為難市長市長市長浩子說到底他會因為我們剛剛講的這四條嘛這是你們交通不定的一個遴選標準嘛"},{"start":219.085,"end":241.635,"text":"那我相信各位都很專業 包括說我們現在以江東部為代表派在高鐵公司的董事的這個兩者席次也都是相關的專業那不管是航發會也好 不管是中鋼也好 他們都銀行團也好大家各自有各自的專業性跟他的代表性所以我好奇 只是好奇說既然有這個遴選標準 有這所謂四個規範有具有一定的專業性或者關聯性"},{"start":242.515,"end":261.471,"text":"我只好奇說那對啊你們交通部竟然是主管機關那今天你派了一個因為他要當董事長之前他必須成為董事會成員那董事會成員的限制就是剛剛提到那幾個單位嘛交通部也好 航班會也好 中鋼也好他想必不是中鋼的嘛那他的這個選擇有限那到底怎麼去領選他成為"},{"start":262.812,"end":286.657,"text":"機關代表然後進入董事會然後進入董事會他才能夠成為董事長啊邏輯上來講法律上來講應該是這樣才對啊是喔相關的程序是這樣啦那剛才我也回應了委員的說法就是說他是有專業的尤其是專業來治理整個一個公司專業性能夠把這個公司治理好我想這是最重要"},{"start":287.197,"end":306.338,"text":"市長我想這個是應該是上級交辦我想這個程序上我覺得聽起來很奇怪如果今天查詢董事會成員裡面已經有死者了那這題就不用問了今天就是因為你們先收到派令說他當董事長那我們看董事會成員發現沒有這個人那他突然就可以來當董事長了我覺得這個是你要把整個程序這個真的是"},{"start":307.419,"end":321.628,"text":"顛倒過來啦就先有一個董事長要來了然後我才選他進來董事會所以我覺得這個是交通部整個行政院要去檢討那當然我想這不是市長的問題我只是把它提出來好不好好沒關係市長我們回到業務本身"},{"start":323.939,"end":338.536,"text":"我想我們討論一下這個今天討論道交管理條例那我本席也特別注重獨駕過去強調酒駕、無招駕駛等等的問題那你看到獨駕這個道路交通管理條例第90條裡面有提到就是如果他的行為於兩個月之後不得舉發"},{"start":339.597,"end":345.958,"text":"我們看到近年獨家的件數112年113年114年114年也就今年統一到4月份就已經高達1755件那去年一整年是2600件關於獨家查獲件數那真正查獲到實際舉發這涉及到這個刑事局這邊有提過也提過一件事情就是說我今天查獲了然後送驗然後尿檢出來的結果好像"},{"start":366.373,"end":376.342,"text":"時間不一定都能夠在兩個月內出爐那如果他沒有在兩個月內出爐的話那當事人只要說我沒有我否認我不願尿檢是不是他就不用被罰會不會有這狀況好 可以報告委員那個有關於毒價的部分其實警政署已經有也是有去探討說如何來測禁那剛剛委員講得很好那他如果抗拒或者說我們這個毒品"},{"start":395.137,"end":413.514,"text":"他的協議或那樣去送驗喔時間會超過超過兩個月就到最後就沒辦法處罰因為道家條例的處罰是行政方面的處罰他的處罰跟刑法不一樣那所以我們在這邊也有一點建議就是說他這個道家條例90條規定是"},{"start":415.636,"end":437.114,"text":"兩個月不得舉發是不是可以再補充一下說或者把法條稍微修一下他的檢驗我們這個期間的算法是到他的檢驗出來結果才開始算這個就在90條裡面有我們希望說委員如果可以的話也來支持那個是警政署陳處長嗎"},{"start":439.996,"end":461.098,"text":"我今天提出來就是希望我們要往這方向來修我自己的了解實務上既然這個法條擺在這邊有這個於兩個月不得舉發的問題但實務上是不是要怎麼樣修正拜託一下我覺得交通部跟刑事局應該討論一下怎麼樣去處理這個事情不然說就像提到了他兩個月時間到然後因為量能不足檢驗不到然後兩個月過後他就沒事了"},{"start":461.678,"end":470.966,"text":"那難怪我是舉發 查問件是這麼高我想跟舉發件數是有一定程度的落差啦所以這個條次怎麼修 條文怎麼修 交通部會不會處理"},{"start":474.378,"end":491.865,"text":"跟委員報告一下 針對這個部分的話我們大概就是說有請警政署提出這一個意見 那意見完之後我們大概會參加警政署意見來做一個處理 時間呢這個部分就上次有跟署裡面協調 他們趕快把意見過來我們就不用韓式的方式來做處理"},{"start":492.825,"end":511.876,"text":"市長我們很在意時間啦因為其實講真的你看這個件數喔我提到為什麼要特別搶件數因為112年的時候當然查分的時候還沒那麼高113年才2600今年4月但是因為現在已經6月了我還沒有拿到最新的數字各位不好意思他們剛過來我們這個一個禮拜內核複給警察署來一起去辦理"},{"start":512.366,"end":522.357,"text":"好 我們希望這趕快處理啦不要擺了這一條我想很多人有發現這一條所以他一直利用這個漏洞我想對台灣的治安對大家行人安全是很大的影響好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時30分）謝謝主席，我們請交通部政次陳次長。"],["主席：好，交通部陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好。次長，我想一開始當然還是要針對時事來就教，大家看到新聞說史哲即將接任台灣高鐵公司的董事長，我想請問一下次長，現在交通部派在高鐵董事會的代表有幾位？次長知道嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：兩位。"],["黃委員健豪：兩位嘛！一位是交通部綜合規劃司的副司長吳東凌，一位是鐵道局的楊正君局長，所以交通部派兩位代表人在高鐵公司董事會裡面。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["黃委員健豪：高鐵公司的董事會成員裡面包含了財團法人中華航空事業發展基金會（航發會）、包含中鋼公司、包含台糖公司、包含行政院國發基金管理會、包含東元電機、包含台北富邦銀行，以上是董事會的成員，我們現任的高鐵公司董事長是來自於航發會的代表人鄭光遠，他現在擔任高鐵公司董事長。我想請教一下，我剛剛講的這些董事會成員裡面，就剛好沒有史哲，我想問如果史哲能夠去擔任高鐵公司董事長的話，他是以什麼樣的身分？他具備董事會哪一個成員的身分，能夠來擔任董事長？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想後續大概就會有一個推派指定的程序……"],["主席：陳政次，因為這個業務是伍政次的，是不是可以上來……"],["黃委員健豪：可以。"],["主席：因為伍政次主管鐵道，所以這個部分是不是請他幫忙一下？"],["黃委員健豪：請伍次長，謝謝。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，當然當董事長一定必須是董事的身分才可以。"],["黃委員健豪：對，那他現在還沒有……"],["伍代理董事長勝園：現在應該是……我今天有看到文，行政院核定他未來會當董事長，但是他的董事，我要看一下，應該是依照航發會的董事代表。"],["黃委員健豪：他是用航發會，不是用交通部的嘛？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：不是。"],["黃委員健豪：航發會屬不屬於交通部轉投資的單位？它算你們投資的財團法人嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是交通部的財團法人。"],["黃委員健豪：它既然是交通部投資的財團法人，你們有一個交通部與所屬事業機構派任公民營事業機構及財團法人機關代表的遴選標準，不管你是派任機構還是財團法人，裡面有一個機關代表遴選，除工會推派的董事之外，應該具備下列幾個資格，第一個，對企業的經營管理具有豐富學識跟經驗；第二個，他的專長適合該事業或財團法人需要；第三個，現任職務與該事業或財團法人業務有密切關係；第四個，投資該公司的公民營事業機構現任董事長或者是總經理或副總，有這四個條件，我想問一下兩位次長，你們覺得史哲適用這個規定裡面的哪一條？他可能會適用哪一條？他可以去航發會擔任董事，然後進入高鐵公司擔任董事。"],["陳次長彥伯：史哲政委有他的專業性。"],["黃委員健豪：好啦！沒關係啦！不為難次長，次長，我只是想知道到底他會……因為我剛剛講的這四條是你們交通部訂的遴選標準，我相信各位都很專業，包含現在以交通部為代表派在高鐵公司董事的這兩個席次，也都有相關的專業，不管是航發會也好、不管是中鋼也好，銀行團也好，大家各自有各自的專業性跟他的代表性，所以我只是好奇，既然有這個遴選標準，有這所謂的四個規範，要具有一定的專業性或者是關聯性，我只是好奇既然你們交通部是主管機關，今天你派了一個……因為他要當董事長之前，他必須成為董事會成員，董事會成員的限制就是剛剛提到的那幾個單位，交通部也好、航發會也好、中鋼也好，他想必不是中鋼的嘛，他的選擇有限，到底怎麼去遴選他成為機關代表，進入董事會？要進入董事會，他才能夠成為董事長，邏輯上來講、法律上來講，應該是這樣才對啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：是啊！相關的程序是這樣，剛才我也回應了委員的說法，他是有專業的，尤其是用專業來治理整個公司，有專業性能夠把這個公司治理好，我想這是最重要的。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，我想這個應該是上級交辦啦！因為這個程序我聽起來覺得很奇怪啦！如果今天查詢董事會成員裡面已經有史哲了，那這題就不用問了，今天就是因為你們先收到派令，說他要當董事長，我們看董事會成員裡面沒有發現這個人啊！他突然就來當董事長了，我覺得你們真的是把整個程序顛倒過來啦！就先有一個董事長要來了，然後才選他進來董事會，所以我覺得這個是交通部、整個行政院要去檢討的，當然我想這不是次長的問題，我只是把它提出來，好不好？好，次長沒關係，我們回到業務本身。","我們今天要討論道路交通管理處罰條例，本席特別注重毒駕，過去常常有酒駕、無照駕駛等等的問題，關於毒駕，道路交通管理處罰條例第九十條裡面有提到，即他的行為逾兩個月之後不得舉發，我們看到近年毒駕的件數從112年、113年到114年，今年只統計到4月份，就已經高達1,755件，去年一整年是2,600件，關於毒駕查獲的件數，從真正查獲到實際舉發，這涉及到……刑事局也有提過一件事情，就是他今天查獲了，然後送驗到尿檢結果出來，時間好像不一定都能夠在兩個月內出爐，如果它沒有在兩個月內出爐的話，當事人只要說他沒有、他否認、他不願尿檢，他是不是就不用被罰，會不會有這狀況？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們請組長說明。"],["黃委員健豪：可以。"],["陳組長明志：報告委員，有關於毒駕的部分，其實警政署也有探討要如何策進，剛剛委員講得很好，他如果抗拒，或者這個毒犯的血液或尿液送驗，時間如果超過兩個月，到最後就沒辦法處罰，因為道交條例的處罰是行政方面的處罰，它的處罰跟刑法不一樣，所以我們在這邊也有一點建議，道交條例第九十條規定是逾兩個月不得舉發，是不是可以再補充一下或者把法條稍微修一下，我們期間的算法是他鑑驗結果出來才開始算，這個在第九十條裡面有，我們希望委員如果可以的話，也來支持這個法令的修正。"],["黃委員健豪：這位是警政署陳組長嘛？"],["陳組長明志：是。"],["黃委員健豪：好，組長，當然我們今天提出來，就是希望要往這方向來修，既然這個法條擺在這邊，有逾兩個月不得舉發的問題，但實務上要怎麼樣修正，拜託一下，我覺得交通部跟刑事局應該討論一下，怎麼樣去處理這件事情，就像組長提到的，兩個月時間到了，卻因為量能不足檢驗不到，兩個月過後，他就沒事了，難怪查獲件數這麼高，我想跟舉發件數是有一定程度的落差啦！所以這個條次怎麼修、條文怎麼修，交通部會不會處理？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，針對這個部分，我們有請警政署提出意見，提出意見完之後，我們大概會參採警政署的意見來做處理，就是……"],["黃委員健豪：那時間呢？"],["林司長福山：這個部分上次有跟署裡面協調，他們趕快提意見過來，我們用函釋的方式來做處理。"],["黃委員健豪：司長，我們很在意時間啦！講真的，你看這個件數，我為什麼要特別講件數？因為112年的時候，那時候查獲的件數還沒那麼高，113年才2,600，今年統計到4月，但因為現在已經6月了，我還沒有拿到最新數字……"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，他們的文剛過來，我們一個禮拜內函覆給警政署來一起辦理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我們希望趕快處理啦！不然這條擺著，我想很多人有發現這條，一直利用這個漏洞，我想這對臺灣的治安、對行人安全是很大的影響，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，我們儘速來處理，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢。","現在請蔡其昌副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra 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人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162445","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c97393daf2910255dc8c2a0f21558b58c3643b132f871dcdd8303c495862b7e09b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:18:20 - 11:30:07","影片長度":"00:11:47","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T11:18:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T11:30:07+08:00","duration":707,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.3890937500000002,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.41721875,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.88971875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.04096875,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.99784375,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.039718750000002,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":45.930968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.930968750000005,"end":45.947843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.09096875,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.03346875,"end":65.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.77596875,"end":69.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.47159375000001,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.97596875,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.99284375,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.97159375000001,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.68659375,"end":102.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.19096875000001,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.21596875,"end":112.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.46034375,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.28659375000001,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.96096875,"end":124.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.10846875000001,"end":125.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.11659375,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.05721875,"end":134.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.08221875,"end":131.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.15784375,"end":133.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.15346875,"end":136.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.92096875000001,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.13159375,"end":141.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.88221875000002,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.04659375,"end":175.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.14721875,"end":188.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.01409375,"end":198.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.52284375000002,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.26534375,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":217.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.39096875,"end":207.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.01034375,"end":214.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.60471875000002,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.10221875000002,"end":223.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.82284375,"end":230.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.81346875000003,"end":233.32784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.74971875000003,"end":237.54659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.06971875000002,"end":239.65596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.98909375000002,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.95409375000003,"end":253.1222187500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謝謝主席那邀請我們交通部政事人我們陳政事好 陳政事應該警政署應該有應該交通組組長有來嗎陳組長組長有來警政署交通組"},{"start":17.096,"end":45.792,"text":"好 謝謝今天要跟市長跟警政署討論一下我們道路交通管理處罰條例它的適用範圍我們的道路交通因為我們的法令要在對人民做規範做約束或者是懲處的時候法律有明確性你有怎樣的行為就會被我們處罰明確性相當重要的那我們道交條例有一些規範我想確認一下我們這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎還是也包含了私有場域"},{"start":48.778,"end":68.493,"text":"其實在這個處罰條例的這個應該是第三條最後其實它是公眾通行的地方然後又經過這個當地的主管機關對於標示標線都有納管的那個區域就是所謂道路的範圍所以重點在於如果是私有的場域的話"},{"start":69.554,"end":97.75,"text":"他就是看其他供公眾通行之地方如果說他有供公眾通行的義務的話他就適用我們道教條例如果他沒有供公眾通行的義務的話那他就不適用道教條例是這樣嗎所以我們可以發現有些停車場他是供公眾來使用而且呢這當地的警察機關或者是公路主管機關會在裡面會有執法會有標誌標線的畫設等等的那那個地方就是屬於公共的地方"},{"start":97.83,"end":102.494,"text":"好 謝謝市長 警政署我們的執法的原則也是如此嗎 公共狀況性市內土地不算不算市內土地不算你們兩個現在講話的回應有點落差喔到底算不算市內土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰料理來開罰單可不可以"},{"start":127.133,"end":141.632,"text":"如果是那個繼承的道路才算如果是私人的土地不算公私行號啊他們有有那個圍起來啊有那個他們私有的土地那個不算"},{"start":142.553,"end":168.153,"text":"跟委員特別提到 其實我們兩個的答覆並沒有衝突我剛才特別一條 私人要公眾通行而且相關的交通或道路主管警察機關要經過相關的管理或他會去執法會有標線標色的畫色等等的才算也就是他把它開放成類似像公有來供大家使用的所以他剛才講的私人空地他根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題如果他沒圍呢"},{"start":170.254,"end":197.956,"text":"不是維沒有維還是屬於他私人當然他是私人的啊好沒關係其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的啦那當然這個組長講的其實就民眾普遍上面來講的話有一種形態你也沒有拿出來就是豈有啦豈有一定是私用啦這個部分無庸置疑豈有豈有可能也在豈有上面已經有了啦豈有就其他公共通行的地方那實務上我要跟兩位報告包括地方政府因為我們現在交通部沒有解釋函對不對"},{"start":201.183,"end":223.556,"text":"怎麼去認定他是不是其他公共重通行的地方我們解釋很多如果我也有那個我們可以提供沒有我們辦公室跟你們要過有沒有相關的解釋函其他公共重通行我們是沒有相關解釋函導致的地方政府有些地方政府有自己的解釋函包括法院法院可能也有做相關的解釋我們可以來提供好那這個兩位那我們來看一下下面的圖片"},{"start":225.198,"end":239.423,"text":"來這個是私人社區就是我講的這個私人社區那當然它是一個建築基地我們有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭左邊箭頭我講的當然就是這個有地磚的部分哪一邊可以停車哪一邊不能停車你們看不看得出來我講的是這個有地磚的部分不是馬路"},{"start":254.451,"end":255.952,"text":"用私人的範圍私人基地的人行道你們兩位的解讀是這樣次長你也是嗎對所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單如果沒有特別的標示之類的次長你也一樣的看法嗎"},{"start":286.909,"end":296.012,"text":"好沒關係我直接就是既然這件事情都要討論的話民眾怎麼判斷警察現場開單怎麼判斷那個我們下一個下一頁我右邊的這個是建築圖館機關的圖左邊的黃色的斜線黃綠斜線它是騎樓地 無遮掩騎樓右邊綠色 右邊同樣的一個角度它就是單純綠色綠色是代表法定空地"},{"start":315.636,"end":331.572,"text":"那你既然為7樓地你就有必須要供公眾通勤的衣物7樓那右邊他是法定空地那他就是自己私人土地就是誠如我們組長講的你沒有說要給公眾通勤的話那你就要必須你可能警察就沒有去開單但實務上民眾看得出來嗎"},{"start":336.687,"end":345.996,"text":"我們警察去開單的時候難道還要 我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖館圖館這個系統去查嗎或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖館系統去查嗎好 那包括下一 那我們再看下一張對面啦 對面這就是他對面 兩邊來 猜猜看哪邊可以停車 哪邊不能停車"},{"start":365.373,"end":387.685,"text":"我會問你就代表你一定看不出來啦因為現場就看不出來嘛來 下一頁兩邊都是騎樓地兩邊都不能停車那也就是說我們的建築圖館裡面我就只講建築圖館裡面就好建築圖館裡面有一些建築法定的規範你必須跟公眾通行但是這套系統包括它的土地的屬性你必須要去跟"},{"start":388.646,"end":405.337,"text":"建築主管機關去查詢之後你才知道當然有一種例外的是開放空間開放空間的話它會有現場的一個告示牌或許就看得到相關有一些判例法院也認為開放空間因為開放空間在法定上的意思就是當初有一些建商"},{"start":406.238,"end":426.526,"text":"我們把一些建築基地的空間供不特定的對象通行不特定對象通行那給你隆起獎益所以他是必須要提出來的提供給公眾通行的一個義務但是這很多東西你沒有告示牌的情況下你的警察是很難去判斷他是不是開放空間他是不是騎樓地他有沒有供公眾通行的一個義務"},{"start":428.572,"end":447.341,"text":"這你直接看看不出來我們直接看下一張就快速掃描過去好了一樣啊兩邊啊兩邊的社區啊看不出來啊左邊的這個社區人行道是法定空地啊右邊是騎樓地啊看不出來嘛那看不出來的時候民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法我們警察怎麼知道有沒有違規好那下一張"},{"start":448.598,"end":466.136,"text":"一樣啊這個就更複雜了你看右下角圖最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地然後右邊也反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地啊你這樣看得出來一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地哪邊是騎樓地實際上是很難去判斷的所以我認為我們在執法的時候我會建議我們"},{"start":469.979,"end":492.42,"text":"交通部可以有一個更明確的一個指示只要是私人的土地那現場可能未來是要由我們的交通部門地方的交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示告訴大家說你這邊的土地它的屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務"},{"start":493.661,"end":518.046,"text":"所以他施用道路交通管理處罰條例那你們 你就不可以來這邊停車我們警察就會來開單否則現在就是每個 跟你講每個警察像我剛剛講的一些案例啦有的警察去開啦 有的警察不去開啦那每個警察的執法也都不一致啦那地方政府 會有地方政府的解釋地方政府 譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是說只要是"},{"start":519.281,"end":532.26,"text":"都審通過的退縮地那有通行的就大概有一些做解釋哪一種型態但是實際上你看現場你根本看不出來他到底符不符合哪一種型態那市長或者是署長你們可以簡單回應一下面對這種狀況未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性更一套標準"},{"start":543.123,"end":562.352,"text":"我們一定會請我們的同仁一定要判斷說這個到底是齊樓地還是法定的空地我們會要求執法一定要明確就是說不要亂開單不要為了執法而執法但是如果事實上真的是違規的那就一樣要開法"},{"start":563.291,"end":582.565,"text":"我們會要求更嚴謹所以民眾去的時候還要先上網查一下去建築的管理系統看一下這私人地到底可不可以停然後我們警察開單前也要上網查一下你不覺得這樣很警察一定是當地的拍手啊 轄區的拍手那他對於當地的你會不會覺得這樣對於我們警察同仁的負擔太大了"},{"start":583.784,"end":607.219,"text":"的確是有一點對啊 你還要去查 次長你怎麼讓他更簡便的讓民眾跟司法單位我想跟委員報告 委員剛才提到很多的其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地事務對 沒錯像這樣的一個情形不一而足所以不可能有一個就是一個譬如我講私人空地就不可以停類似像這樣的一個解釋或私人空地可以停這個太簡略了"},{"start":609.841,"end":627.482,"text":"但是呢如何去認定所謂剛才講道路範圍我剛才也提到過這個我們也做了多次的解釋那我相信各地方政府或警察機關我會建議我們交通部未來私人土地要讓我們的警察同仁來開單的時候我們就必須要有正面的告示"},{"start":628.667,"end":645.203,"text":"正面的告示這一個我想社區的管委會啦或是相關的那個他如果上那一塊空地他是不可以停的我相信他們會去做一些告示不可以停那是不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停那個就牽扯到民法了"},{"start":646.328,"end":669.239,"text":"我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例因為就一個空地的話民眾要所以你就覺得沒關係以後就讓警察單位慢慢自己去判斷民眾自己去判斷跟你們交通部沒有關係不是交通部其實是牽涉到法律面那法律面我剛才也特別提所以法律面就是要明確對我們現在每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車我跟委員報告法律的明確不是到簡單化"},{"start":671.18,"end":688.862,"text":"這個是兩個是不一樣的不是說簡單化就可以解決而是要明確可以適用所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓他明確然後每一個人停車的人也有停車人要盡的義務執法也有執法的一個權限大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治"},{"start":689.422,"end":706.694,"text":"反正這個問題我也相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候你會知道這是不管是民眾或者是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾那我希望交通部能夠出面來有一個好的解決的方式我就不浪費大家的時間我希望後續你再請我們的司長來我辦公室討論一下好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時18分）謝謝主席。邀請交通部陳政次。"],["主席：陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：警政署交通組組長應該有來吧？"],["主席：警政署交通組陳組長。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：今天要跟交通部次長、警政署討論一下道路交通管理處罰條例的適用範圍。我們的法令要在對人民規範、約束或者是懲處的時候，法律有明確性，有怎樣的行為就會被處罰，明確性是相當重要的。道交條例有一些規範，我想確認一下，這些規範是只有指公有場域嗎？還是也包含了私有場域？"],["陳次長彥伯：按處罰條例第三條最後的規定，其實是指公眾通行的地方，經過當地主管機關對於標誌、標線都有納管的區域，就是所謂道路的範圍。"],["廖委員先翔：重點在於如果是私有場域，就是看其他供公眾通行之地方，如果有供公眾通行的義務，就適用道交條例；如果沒有供公眾通行的義務，就不適用道交條例，是這樣嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我們可以發現，有些停車場是供公眾來使用，而且當地的警察機關或者公路主管機關會在裡面執法，會有標誌、標線的劃設等等，那這個地方就是屬於公共的地方、道路的地方。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝次長。警政署的執法原則也是如此嗎，供公眾通行？"],["陳組長明志：私人的土地不算。"],["廖委員先翔：不算？"],["陳組長明志：私人的土地不算。"],["廖委員先翔：你們兩個現在的回應有點落差，到底算不算？私人土地到底可不可以用道路交通管理處罰條例來開罰單，可不可以？"],["陳組長明志：如果是既成的道路才算。"],["廖委員先翔：既成道路嘛。"],["陳組長明志：私人的土地不算。"],["廖委員先翔：私人土地不算？"],["陳組長明志：公司行號圍起來、他們私有的土地不算。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員特別提到，其實我們兩個的答復並沒有衝突，我剛才特別提到私人的要供公眾通行，而且相關的交通道路主管、警察機關要兼具相關的管理或執法，會有標線、標誌劃設等等的才算，也就是把它開放成類似公有來供大家使用的，所以他剛才講的私人空地，它根本就是圍起來的就不是這個問題。"],["廖委員先翔：如果它沒圍呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：沒有圍還是屬於私人，它當然是私人的，私人的就……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，其實次長講的比較符合我心中想的，當然組長講的其實就民眾普遍上來講，有一種型態你也沒有納入，就是騎樓，騎樓一定是適用，這個部分無庸置疑，騎樓可能也在……騎樓在上面已經有了，就是其他供公眾通行的地方。","實務上我要跟兩位報告，包括地方政府，因為現在交通部沒有解釋函，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：有關道路的解釋函，我們解釋很多……"],["廖委員先翔：怎麼去認定它是不是其他供公眾通行的地方？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們解釋很多，如果委員有需要我們可以提供。"],["廖委員先翔：我們辦公室跟你們要過了有沒有其他供公眾通行的相關解釋函，你們沒有相關的解釋函，導致地方政府……"],["陳次長彥伯：有，我們可以來提供。"],["廖委員先翔：有些地方政府有自己的解釋函，包括法院可能也有做相關的解釋。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們可以來提供！"],["林司長福山：是。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位，我們來看一下下面的圖片，這個是私人社區，就是我講的私人社區，當然它是一個建築基地，這裡有左邊箭頭跟右邊箭頭，左邊箭頭講的就是有地磚的部分，哪一邊可以停車、哪一邊不能停車，你們看不看得出來？我講的是有地磚的部分，不是馬路，就是私人的範圍、私人基地的人行道。"],["陳組長明志：如果是私人的土地，看地主願不願提供出來給其他人使用。"],["廖委員先翔：你們兩位的解讀是這樣？次長，你也是嗎？"],["陳組長明志：看起來就是私人的土地。"],["廖委員先翔：所以原則上組長會認為這不應該開罰單，如果沒有特別的標示之類的，次長，你也一樣的看法嗎？沒關係，既然這件事情都要討論的話，民眾怎麼判斷？警察現場開單怎麼判斷？","下一頁，右邊這個是建築圖管機關的圖，左邊的黃綠斜線是騎樓地、無遮簷騎樓，右邊同樣的一個角度就是單純綠色，綠色是代表法定空地。既然有騎樓地，就有必須要供公眾通行的義務；右邊是法定空地，這就是私人土地，誠如組長講的，如果沒有說要給公眾通行的話，可能警察機關就沒有去開單。但實務上民眾看得出來嗎？我們民眾停車難道還要上建築圖管系統去查嗎？或是警察開單難道還要上建築圖管系統去查嗎？","我們再看下一張，這就是它對面而已，兩邊來猜猜看，哪邊可以停車、哪邊不能停車？我會問你就代表你一定看不出來，因為現場就看不出來。下一頁，兩邊都是騎樓地、兩邊都不能停車。","也就是說我們的建築圖管裡面，我就只講建築圖管就好，建築圖管裡面有一些建築法令的規範是必須供公眾通行，但是這套系統包括這塊土地的屬性必須要去跟建築主管機關查詢之後才知道，當然有一種例外是開放空間，開放空間現場會有告示牌或許就看得到，也有一些相關的判例，法院也認為開放空間……因為開放空間在法令上的意思就是，當初有一些建商把一些建築基地的空間供不特定對象通行，然後得到容積獎勵，所以它是有必須要提供給公眾通行的義務。但是這很多東西在沒有告示牌的情況下，警察很難去判斷它是不是開放空間、是不是騎樓地、有沒有供公眾通行的義務，你直接看並看不出來。","我們直接看下一張，就快速掃描過去好了。一樣兩邊的社區，看不出來啊，左邊的社區人行道是法定空地、右邊是騎樓地，看不出來嘛！當看不出來的時候，民眾怎麼知道他做的事情有沒有違法，警察怎麼知道有沒有違規？","下一張，一樣啊，這個就更複雜了，看右下角的圖，最前面靠近人行道的地方是騎樓地，反正有斜線的地方就是騎樓地，你這樣看得出來？這一大塊的廣場你怎麼看得出來哪邊是法定空地、哪邊是騎樓地？實際上是很難去判斷的。","所以我認為在執法的時候，我會建議交通部可以有一個更明確的指示，只要是私人的土地，未來現場可能要由地方交通部門或者是警察執法機關有一個明確的告示，告訴大家這邊的土地屬性在法令上面是有供公眾通行的義務，所以它適用道路交通管理處罰條例，民眾就不可以來這邊停車、警察就會來開單。否則像我剛剛講的一些案例，有的警察去開、有的警察不去開，每個警察的執法都不一致，地方政府會有地方政府的解釋，譬如說新北市給警察局的解釋是，只要是都審通過的退縮地，有通行的……大概有解釋是哪一些型態，但是實際上在現場根本看不出來到底符不符合那一種型態。次長或者是組長，你們可不可以簡單回應一下，面對這種狀況，未來怎麼讓我們的執法更有一致性、更有一套標準？"],["陳組長明志：我們一定會請我們的同仁要判斷這個到底是騎樓地還是法定空地，我們會要求執法一定要明確，也不要亂開單，不要為了執法而執法，但是如果事實上真的是違規的，那就一樣要開罰，我們會要求要更嚴謹。"],["廖委員先翔：所以民眾停車的時候還要先上網查一下、去建築管理系統看一下這個私人地到底可不可以停，然後警察開單前也要上網查一下？你不覺得這樣很……"],["陳組長明志：警察一定是當地轄區的派出所，他對於當地的……"],["廖委員先翔：會不會覺得這樣對我們警察同仁的負擔太大了？"],["陳組長明志：的確是有一點。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊，你還要去查。次長，你怎麼使它更簡便的讓民眾跟執法單位……"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告，委員剛才提到的很多其實都是牽涉到當地建管或土地使用。"],["廖委員先翔：對，沒錯。"],["陳次長彥伯：像這樣的情形不一而足，所以不可能有一個……譬如私人空地就不可以停，類似像這樣的一個解釋，或者私人空地可以停，這個太簡略了。但是如何去認定剛才講的道路範圍？我剛才也提到過，這個我們也做了多次的解釋，我相信各地方政府或警察機關大概也瞭解……"],["廖委員先翔：我會建議交通部，未來私人土地要讓警察同仁來開單的時候，我們就必須要有正面的告示！"],["陳次長彥伯：我想社區的管委會或者相關的，如果那一塊空地是不可以停的，我相信他們會去做一些告示。"],["廖委員先翔：不可以停是管委會跟你說不能停，那個又牽扯到民法了，我們現在在討論道路交通管理處罰條例。"],["陳次長彥伯：就一個空地的話，民眾要……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你就覺得沒關係，以後就讓警察單位自己慢慢去判斷、民眾自己去判斷，跟你們交通部沒有關係？"],["陳次長彥伯：不是，交通部其實是牽涉到法律面，關於法律面我剛才也特別提到……"],["廖委員先翔：所以法律面就是要明確。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，我們相關法律……"],["廖委員先翔：讓每一個人都清楚這邊可不可以停車，執法才沒有疑義。"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，法律的明確不是到簡單化，這兩個是不一樣的，不是說簡單化就可以解決，而是要明確可以適用，所以像這樣的一個問題就是我們讓它明確，然後每一個停車的人也有停車的人要盡的義務、執法也有執法的權限，大家要互相配合才能夠把一個健全的法治……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，我相信你們剛剛在看圖示的時候也知道，這個問題是民眾或是基層執法同仁都會遇到的一個非常大的困擾，我希望交通部能夠出面，有一個好的解決方式，我就不耽誤大家時間，我希望後續你再請司長來我辦公室討論一下，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9b2db6c7f65c2ffe38c2a0f21558b58c3643b132f871dcdd8fd3a25c60a590e925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:03:56 - 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當時承諾的是希望無照駕駛能夠比照這個危險駕駛然後上上個禮拜然後媒體訪問你們交通部的一個記者會宣布了無照駕駛要比照這個酒駕"},{"start":184.912,"end":202.54,"text":"到底是什麼就是說你們有沒有一個長期的一個政策因為這政策說真的交通治理罰款是尾段尤其是無照駕駛大概有非常大的比例是在我們辛苦低限的警員因為你AI不管什麼去照相科技司法照到大概都進行舉發居多"},{"start":204.401,"end":229.346,"text":"那你照照之後他可以說不是他嘛所以無照駕駛這件事情我們人工比例非常大但是他是在尾端真的沒辦法罰交通治理還有很多的前端的政策去考量源頭怎麼樣去減少嘛讓這些人就不願意嘛當然罰款是一個方式還有其他如果你沒有長期去做這個研究的時候怎麼會說比照這個危險駕駛因為危險駕駛上限是三萬六"},{"start":231.966,"end":258.734,"text":"大概3萬6我們不談貨車啦就講這個普通駕照3萬6就2萬4我要把它調成3萬6這去年11月18號的一個方向就到了6個月後前一陣子說的是比照這個酒駕酒駕最高機車汽車就分了分家了9萬到12萬所以你們現在的理念這樣好不好講清楚方向了齁這個到底是要當時承諾的"},{"start":260.074,"end":277.712,"text":"比照危險駕駛大概最高罰款是三萬六還是現在說的他提高到九萬到十二萬而且汽機車分家無照駕駛汽機車沒有分家機車汽車都一樣那未來是不是怎麼樣分家請你說一下你有沒有研究"},{"start":280.862,"end":296.099,"text":"事實上剛才各位委員特別提到當時是比照這個危險駕駛那我們現在經過這一陣子以後的研究我們發現就是應該要比照這個酒駕的方式分家而且發販沒有上限詳細的情形我請林市長來跟委員做說明"},{"start":296.892,"end":324.442,"text":"跟委員報告一下確實成為剛剛委員所提到的一個部分就是說我們這個去年研擬的那個部分那這個是提到到這個364比照的這個危險駕駛最高罰款的部分那今天在檢討之後也確實這段時間大家剛剛相後委員也這個事情提到這個有關於無照駕駛的一個總列我們去細分機車跟汽車還有包括研擬的部分是有不同所以我們這次在這個檢討的部分市長這樣啦因為今天時間真的非常有限"},{"start":326.903,"end":348.813,"text":"那我是要拜託你們你們那個政策我希望比較讓別人看起來是長期在研究而且很多都有一些有什麼依據的不要說半年一下講東講西就感覺說都可以所以我覺得這個的部分你們仔細研究那現在送到行政院的部分你們如果要針對這個部分要修我希望也速度能夠快一點因為畢竟無照駕駛"},{"start":350.054,"end":371.694,"text":"其實是一個比較高風險的交通違規或者事故的一個群體所以非常非常重要抓這個群體的危險係數比一般要高一點所以這個部分如果係數高又可能造成了我們用戶人無辜的用戶人或者本身生命的威脅我覺得非常不好而且要積極要處理的"},{"start":372.735,"end":390.231,"text":"再來第二個我們來看一下這三年無照駕駛的舉發數其實用想像的比較看不出來到底兩萬 三萬 還是五萬其實沒有調出來我都不知道這麼多每一年就看113年好了"},{"start":391.841,"end":407.297,"text":"像現在這樣一點一年還是有28萬多人被舉發無照這個駕駛坦白講那黑數我不知道你們認為三倍五倍你們自己去研究啦因為要被警察抓到無照所以三倍五倍都不離譜啦所以這是一件"},{"start":408.699,"end":423.114,"text":"滿可怕 大家覺得無照駕駛對很多 微微兩萬八而已你知道嗎 二十八萬就對大家一個普遍社會說 唉 沒差啦沒差 到底要怎麼解決再來你看17歲以下 因為他沒辦法考駕照沒辦法考駕照的話 他有"},{"start":426.698,"end":452.951,"text":"到今年感覺是有向下降了4%那是什麼原因還是不小心他這個沒有沒有原因的下降那你看25歲到64歲甚至65歲以上尤其25到64歲他一般他們是工作的年齡是家庭的經濟支柱那對於可能17歲以下就是說比較帥比較趴但上學也要方便可能理由"},{"start":454.091,"end":481.889,"text":"普為綜合啦但是這個年齡啊就是完了我又沒公車所以這個部分你們後面的整個邏輯齁他後面推論出來邏輯你們要去研究啦有的東西你罰款罰了你發覺欸有限嘛為什麼有些人真的要上班那我們的公共運輸是不是到底哪裡出問題各縣市各個領域到底為什麼發生這些事情是要你們形成一個交通治理的政策我覺得你們要去思考17歲以下這是欸家長怎麼會買車給他"},{"start":486.052,"end":501.865,"text":"小孩子他自己很有錢有可能大部分家長就買車給他了他沒駕照他也買給他了他到底要怎麼樣去約制對不對他沒有車當然就不能騎啊再來就是學校這些都學0年的小朋友他到學校其實學校都知道嘛"},{"start":502.646,"end":516.473,"text":"學校跟家庭怎麼樣去做處理我也希望除了道教條例 條高法則這個方向如果你在源頭沒有一些治理的政策我覺得這樣是不行的請你們朝著這個方向來研究好不好"},{"start":518.258,"end":545.416,"text":"委員的建議很好我們也是朝這個方向在處理譬如剛才委員講到就說17歲以下的就是未成年就是18歲不能考駕照的這部分其實我們也有透過剛才也是部長已經特別提到我們已經納入了這個道安評比然後也會結合社會學校跟社會的一個體制然後也會有一些關懷的一個措施那高齡者65歲以上的無照也是同樣的一個情形"},{"start":548.418,"end":574.308,"text":"因為25到64是提供這個量體非常大人家家裡怎麼吃飯啊你這邊解釋問題我覺得公佈運輸我真的要去做處理那接下來那就你們不用回答了我直接把它講完就好了那再來去分析這麼多人沒有駕照一年30萬人因為無照駕駛被取定那其中再分那有沒有累犯啊就是事實上已經被抓到了他覺得沒有差"},{"start":575.228,"end":599.811,"text":"那這種的駕駛朋友可能不是你加到五年之內兩次以上他可能天天在騎 天天在騎但你看這個數字喔 就是整個累犯率比例也是非常非常高那與這個駕照被扣掉了 他總共汽車總數是四萬六千多人他已經沒有駕照 然後再累犯"},{"start":600.652,"end":624.611,"text":"一年齁113年來講大概9000多人所以像這種累犯尤其像17歲以下騎機車的小朋友啦他累犯比例真的是又高於這個平均所以我覺得家長跟學校怎麼樣透過這個學校或者其他的一個方式來教育或者約制我覺得這蠻重要的最後一張"},{"start":626.178,"end":648.728,"text":"再去分析剛剛無照駕駛什麼原因你們要學校家長那另外一種呢其實比較嚴重在這裡其實他考了駕照了他不是就是你符合考駕照的年齡有些人沒考這些都剔除剔除未成年的全部剔除有一種狀況是說他已經經過了馬路的測試他就完全"},{"start":649.915,"end":673.184,"text":"完全不符合道路安全的價值誰證明的 你們證明的 警察證明了怎麼證明呢 他已經被吊銷 吊扣駕照了這些人啊 就他表達有口罩然後因為一些不當的交通的行為 然後被吊扣了你知道這些人的定義齁 我覺得是比剛剛高危險群在高危險群裡面的top 最高危險群"},{"start":674.484,"end":681.066,"text":"為什麼呢就很簡單嘛你看看這個比例齁這個比例齁一年啊剛剛28萬喔30萬你看看這種重複來的居然有10萬的113年就好將近4成這個我覺得大家條例修了那還有什麼樣一些配合的措施讓這麼讓大家恐怖的數字啊等於每一天365天每一天300輛這個無照已經被扣了"},{"start":704.031,"end":717.548,"text":"你知道為什麼被扣了 被扣得過 這個被吊銷駕照是因為酒駕 毒駕 或者危險駕駛 甚至競速飆車等等的警察抓的鑰匙 終於吊扣了 他繼續在那邊 繼續啊 繼續做"},{"start":720.712,"end":743.169,"text":"那如果吊扣咧 包括車輛開上 不管行人開上斑馬線 而且撞傷行人像這樣的的 我們現在在道交鐵路 它已經一次了在道路上不正當的一個行為 或者很惡劣的行人行為造成了無辜其他的用路人或行人受傷 它被吊罩了結果比例這麼高 還在路上那你們有什麼方法嗎"},{"start":749.761,"end":776.78,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是說在馬路上行駛車輛一定要有駕照這是一定的所以對於無照的駕駛如果他還要在馬路上繼續就是要輔導他去考駕照那如何讓他不要有對他沒辦法有機會吊銷 吊破短時間沒辦法所以我們現在在講讓他如果是無照你要付出一定的一個代價所以剛才特別提到這個罰款好我最後一個結論我最後一個結論"},{"start":779.362,"end":796.817,"text":"你看看這幾種一種情況你除了調高閥制我覺得是一定要的但是怎麼樣你在交通治理的整個的一個你手中的一個工具你只有這個然後給民眾好啦OK了問題絕對沒有解決因為這個數字很清楚我最後要說的因為你已經"},{"start":799.823,"end":814.388,"text":"違反道交條例而且比較嚴重的情況才會吊或者註銷你的駕照在法令上入法的原因它的原理就是我們用法律的依據來取消這些不具安全駕駛資格這些駕駛者"},{"start":816.869,"end":844.33,"text":"而且用法定的 取消他法定的資格你沒有法定資格 這很重要可是他不理啊那這樣的話 我們現在一直在討論道交條例或者其他法律我們要透過法律手段 想辦法要這樣來排除道路上這種交通危險的因子結果做得並不好我真的是希望 我這樣的提醒你真的要全面向哪裡 交通部所有的工具去研究 好不好"},{"start":845.846,"end":847.456,"text":"是我們會按依照這個方向來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時3分）謝謝主席。有請交通部陳次長。"],["主席：好，陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：次長，你長期在交通部，你大概也非常清楚，我們今天針對道交條例相關的一些罰則等等，有很多委員提案，大概有42個案子，其實現在民眾最關心的就是無照駕駛的部分要怎麼去處理，這麼多年來，我們看到110年3月的時候有通過，當時有提高罰則，現在無照駕駛，不分汽、機車，大概最高罰到二萬四，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["魯委員明哲：經過四年的時間，發生了很多的問題，所以第一個，其實過去長期有在研究這個問題，不是現在才突然發生的，在交通部長上任之後，去年11月18日我擔任召委的時候，特別排了一個專題報告是如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：7個月過去了，你們承諾的事項，在方向上跟程序送行政院怎麼樣去做，目前進度如何呢？就7個月前講的這個案子，送行政院了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們已經有提送行政院去討論了，這裡頭……"],["魯委員明哲：提送行政院去討論？不是啊！你們的案子，簡單來講，你們修法案，你們自己在交通部已經核定、定稿沒有？你要把正確的版本送上去，交給行政院，當然它要核准，然後送到立法院來。現在進度到底是還在研究還是法條具體定了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，這個法條在交通部已經討論過也定案了，我們送到行政院後，行政院有一定審查法案的程序，我剛才也講了，其法案程序是要先聽取交通部的報告，在報告裡面，他希望我們對於罰則的部分再做檢討，現在是這樣。至於剛才部長所承諾的一些要辦理的，譬如說納入道安評比等等，這些我們都已經在辦理中了。"],["魯委員明哲：好，當時承諾的是，希望無照駕駛能夠比照危險駕駛。"],["陳次長彥伯：還在規劃。"],["魯委員明哲：但上上個禮拜媒體訪問時，交通部在一個記者會上宣布，無照駕駛要比照酒駕。所以到底是什麼？你們有沒有一個長期的政策？說真的，對於交通治理，罰款是尾段，尤其是無照駕駛，大概有非常大的比例是在我們辛苦的第一線警員，因為AI不管怎麼去照相，科技執法照到的大概都逕行舉發居多，你照到之後，他可以說不是他嘛！所以無照駕駛這件事情，我們人工的比例非常大，但是它是在尾端，是真的沒辦法才罰。其實交通治理還有很多前端的政策可以去考量，源頭怎麼樣去減少，這些人就不願意嘛！當然罰款是一個方式，還有其他，如果你們有長期去做這個研究，怎麼會說要比照危險駕駛呢？因為危險駕駛的罰鍰上限大概是三萬六，我們不談貨車，就講普通駕照，大概就是三萬六，就是要從二萬四調成三萬六，這是去年11月18日的方向。結果過了六個月後，前一陣子說的是要比照酒駕，酒駕的最高罰鍰，機車、汽車就分家了，九萬和十二萬。所以你們現在的理念是什麼？要講清楚方向，到底是要以當時承諾的比照危險駕駛，最高罰鍰是三萬六，還是以現在說的提高到九萬和十二萬，而且汽、機車分家？因為無照駕駛汽、機車沒有分家，機車、汽車都一樣，所以未來是要怎麼樣分家？請你說一下，你有沒有研究？"],["陳次長彥伯：剛才委員特別提到，當時是比照危險駕駛，不過經過這陣子研究以後，我們發現應該要比照酒駕的方式分家，而且罰鍰沒有上限。詳細的情形，我請林司長來跟委員做說明。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，確實誠如剛剛委員所提到的，我們去年研擬的方向是提高到三萬六，比照危險駕駛最高罰鍰的部分。經再檢討之後，也確實這段時間，剛剛相關委員也有提到，有關於無照駕駛的種類，我們去細分機車跟汽車，還有包括年齡的部分是有不同，所以我們這次在檢討的部分……"],["魯委員明哲：司長，這樣啦！因為今天時間真的非常有限，我要拜託你們，我希望你們的政策可以讓別人看起來是比較長期在研究，而且很多都是有依據的，不要說這半年一下子講東，一下子講西，感覺好像都可以。所以我覺得這個部分請你們仔細研究，現在送到行政院的部分，你們如果針對這部分要修，我希望速度能夠快一點，畢竟無照駕駛是一個比較高風險的交通違規或者事故的群體，所以非常、非常重要，抓這個群體的危險係數比一般要高一點，所以這個部分如果係數高，又可能造成了無辜的用路人或者本身生命的威脅，我覺得非常不好，而且要積極處理。","第二個，我們看這三年無照駕駛的舉發數，用想像的比較看不出來，到底2萬、3萬還是5萬？其實沒有調出來，我都不知道有這麼多。就看113年好了，有向下降一點，一年還是有二十八萬多人被舉發無照駕駛，坦白講，我不知道你們認為黑數是三倍或五倍？你們自己去研究，因為這是被警察抓到的無照，所以三倍、五倍都不離譜。這是一件蠻可怕的事，大家覺得無照駕駛很多，但我以為只有兩萬八而已，你知道嗎？28萬就是社會普遍說沒差，到底要怎麼解決？再來，你看因為17歲以下沒辦法考駕照，今年感覺有向下降了4%，是什麼原因？還是不小心、沒有原因的下降？你看25歲到64歲，甚至65歲以上，尤其25到64歲一般是工作的年齡，是家庭的經濟支柱；17歲以下可能是覺得這樣比較帥、比較「奅」，上學也要方便，理由可能頗為綜合，但是這個年齡就是「完了、又沒公車」。所以這個部分後面推論出來的邏輯你們要去研究，有些東西罰款罰了發覺有限，為什麼？有些人真的要上班，公共運輸到底哪裡出問題？各縣市、各個領域到底為什麼發生這些事情？你們要形成交通治理的政策，我覺得你們要去思考。家長怎麼會買車給17歲以下的孩子？雖然也不一定，有可能是17歲的小孩子自己很有錢，但大部分是家長買車給他，沒駕照也買給他，到底要怎麼樣去約制？他沒有車當然就不會騎；再來就是學校，這些都是學齡的小朋友，他到學校，其實學校都知道，但學校跟家庭要怎麼樣處理？我希望除了道交條例調高罰則這個方向，如果在源頭沒有一些治理的政策，我覺得這樣是不行的，請你們朝著這個方向來研究，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員的建議很好，我們也是朝這個方向在處理。譬如剛才委員講到，17歲以下的未成年、未滿18歲不能考駕照的部分，部長也特別提到，我們已經納入道安評比，會結合學校跟社會的體制，也會有一些關懷的措施。高齡者、65歲以上的無照也是同樣的情形，當然在這一部分可能就要再討論一下，如何提供行的方便性。"],["魯委員明哲：不過25到64歲的量體非常大，這樣人家家裡怎麼吃飯？你這邊解決問題……我覺得公共運輸真的要去處理……"],["陳次長彥伯：我特別跟委員報告，25到64歲有很多是超速吊扣駕照的部分。"],["魯委員明哲：你們不用回答了，我直接把它講完就好了。再來去分析這麼多人沒有駕照，一年將近30萬人因為無照駕駛被取締，其中再分到底有沒有累犯？事實上已經被抓到了，他覺得沒有差，這種駕駛朋友可能不是你加到5年之內兩次以上就有用，他可能天天在騎。但你看這個數字，累犯率也是非常、非常高，汽車駕照被吊扣的總數是四萬六千多人，而已經沒有駕照再累犯者，以113年來講，一年大概九千多人，像這種累犯，尤其是17歲以下騎機車的小朋友累犯比例又高於平均，所以我覺得家長跟學校怎麼樣透過學校或者其他方式來教育或約制滿重要的，最後再去分析剛剛說的無照駕駛是什麼原因，比方學校家長等等。另外一種比較嚴重的是，有些人符合考駕照年齡卻沒考，這些都剔除，未成年也全部剔除，有一種狀況是他已經經過了馬路的測試，完全不符合道路安全的駕駛，誰證明的？你們證明的、警察證明的，怎麼證明呢？這些人已經被吊銷、吊扣駕照了，表示他有考照卻因為一些不當的交通行為被吊扣，你知道這些人的定義是比剛剛提到的高危險群再高危險，是高危險群的top──最高危險群，為什麼呢？很簡單，你看看這個比例，剛剛說一年28萬，這種重複的居然有10萬，光113年就好，將近四成。道交條例修了，還有什麼樣配合的措施？這麼讓大家感到恐怖的數字，等於365天，每一天300人無照，已經被重複扣了，你知道為什麼會被扣嗎？被吊銷駕照是因為酒駕、毒駕或者危險駕駛，甚至競速飆車等等，警察抓得要死，終於吊扣了，他繼續在那邊開。吊扣包括車輛不管行人，開上斑馬線而且撞傷行人，像這樣依現在的道交條例，他已經有一次在道路上不正當的行為或者很惡劣的行為，造成了其他無辜的用路人或行人受傷，所以被吊照，結果還在路上的比例這麼高，你們有什麼方法嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：在馬路上行駛車輛一定要有駕照，這是一定的，如果無照駕駛還要在馬路上繼續開，就是要輔導他去考駕照，如何讓他不要有……"],["魯委員明哲：可是他沒辦法考，已經被吊銷、吊扣，短時間沒辦法考。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，所以我們現在在講，如果是無照，要讓他付出一定的代價，所以剛才特別提到以罰鍰作為特殊的手段。"],["魯委員明哲：我最後的結論，你看看這幾種情況，除了調高罰則我覺得是一定要的，但是你手中的交通治理工具卻只有這個給民眾，就說好、OK了，問題絕對沒有解決，因為這個數字很清楚。我最後要說，因為是已經違反道交條例而且比較嚴重的情況才會吊扣或者註銷駕照，在法令上入法的原因、原理，就是我們用法律的依據來取消這些不具安全駕駛資格的駕駛者，而且用法取消他的法定資格，有沒有法定資格很重要，可是他不理，這樣的話，我們現在一直在討論道交條例或者其他法律，要透過法律手段想辦法來排除道路上這種交通危險的因子，結果做得並不好。我真的希望我這樣的提醒，你真的要全面向拿交通部所有的工具去研究，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會依照這個方向來做。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的質詢。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c943cb909ad2c737798c2a0f21558b58c3643b132f871dcdd8dd4df15546ecd50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:54:08 - 11:03:32","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T10:54:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T11:03:32+08:00","duration":564,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.68471875,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.1353437500000005,"end":8.333468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.193468750000001,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.15971875,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.19409375000001,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.43846875000001,"end":93.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.18096875,"end":95.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.96534375,"end":97.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.72034375000001,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.39909375,"end":101.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.02346875,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.60596875,"end":147.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.02471875,"end":149.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.68659375000001,"end":154.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.09534375,"end":155.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.97284375,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.97534375,"end":177.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.36159375,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.82534375,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.95159375,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.10346875000002,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.15409375000002,"end":184.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.59284375000001,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.76159375,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.29721875,"end":206.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.61034375000003,"end":227.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.37096875,"end":231.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.45034375,"end":250.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.19846875000002,"end":256.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.16409375,"end":260.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.46221875000003,"end":264.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.47909375,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.96846875,"end":275.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.09346875,"end":277.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.70096875,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.35659375,"end":318.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.73221875,"end":322.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.17034375000003,"end":329.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.76846875,"end":385.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.29971875,"end":387.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.39221875000004,"end":392.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.18471875,"end":394.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.31096875000003,"end":398.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.39096875,"end":398.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.73659375000005,"end":427.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.44534375,"end":428.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.62659375000004,"end":437.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAK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市長跟委員報告 基本上就如同委員所說的現在就是自從微型電動用車開放以後因為它的使用數量也增加所以事故的那種數量就跟著游行那我可以請問一下嗎 在我搜尋到的數據裡面的大安總動員裡面的數據裡面有包含這個新住民或者是外籍移工的事故發生數嗎"},{"start":180.146,"end":206.635,"text":"這個資料基本上是偷偷的加總起來的要的話要細分啦 要再去細分要再細分是不是我現在要提這個問題就是當時我們認為應該要建立制度強制納管要掛牌就是希望能夠呢第一個我們知道車流的一個流量第二個我們能夠掌握人車是對比的起來我找到車子我可以找到人"},{"start":208.139,"end":225.183,"text":"第三個我們認為有強制的納保起碼在事故發生的時候能夠給予一定的保障我想這個本來利益良善而且現在也確實在執行不過我再提醒我們在這個法規制度面裡面新購買的你一定要強制納保跟掛牌上路"},{"start":232.503,"end":259.943,"text":"以前在我們法規修法之前已經存在的我們是用鼓勵性質的那次長我們現在在修法之前既存的就有的微型電動二輪車的一個掛牌納保我們現在掌握的數據是多少公共總局說我們是有25萬的這個那全台灣你們掌握數我們的微型電動二輪車大概有幾輛"},{"start":264.628,"end":290.709,"text":"有掛牌跟沒掛牌跟委員報告因為就是說有掛牌的現在就是之前就是使用中的都我們要求就是都要強制都要掛牌這當然知道這所以你好掌握數量去年12月之後的話就是說如果說他沒有掛牌的話其實他這個就是已經是違法那違法的車輛其實因為有些以前微型電動二輪車他使用有一些壽命所以他有一些部分其實是他有可能會報廢"},{"start":292.963,"end":317.995,"text":"我是建議交通部應該要再更細向的去掌握狀況因為剛剛的回答就讓我知道說事實上我們只有掛牌的新購的車輛已經來強制納管的當然你可以精準的掌握數字這也是當初修法要有這個法規制度的一個最重要的目的但是我也必須要再講那沒有"},{"start":318.815,"end":340.384,"text":"在修法之後如期掛牌納保的還有沒有寄存的到底全台灣的微型電動二輪車到底數量有多少這個就是我們有沒有辦法從源頭去掌握整個大數據我為什麼要求源頭掌握第一個你才能夠清楚的知道全台灣到底有多少的"},{"start":341.004,"end":359.179,"text":"在路上的微型電動二輪車第二個你不是只有放任性的有稽查到有事故發生我才可以掌握如果沒有的話你可以去我們中南部的路上去走一走看一看有許許多多的未掛牌的或者是變形的微型電動二輪車在路上走"},{"start":361.081,"end":387.358,"text":"那這些都是在我們現在在討論交通安全不管是行人安全也好或是我們道路設計的路口安全也好那你如果沒有辦法實實在在的掌握在路上到底有哪些交通運具在行駛那你怎麼去修調整我們的道路規範還有說你要講的這個交通安全的整體的一個推動次長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":388.86,"end":394.45,"text":"這個在我們中南部 我想你去走一趟就會看得到欸整個很多耶"},{"start":399.262,"end":421.016,"text":"我應該特別提到微型電動二輪車納管其實我們有一定的這個當時的一個目標那現在又特別提到說使用中的既有的是怎麼樣在處理我想這一部分麻煩請公務局跟那個地方的縣市政府還有警察單位大家再去討論一下如何去做一些像稽查"},{"start":421.656,"end":424.62,"text":"以前剛開始要納管的時候也對於那些店家啦或者是這個有去宣導過嘛對不對源頭的一些處理或者是工廠啊等等的去做相關的宣導甚至是去做開發我想可能還是需要再一波的我們希望去輔導"},{"start":437.515,"end":445.083,"text":"我希望你去輔導我希望你去源頭能夠掌握那我們希望在路上都是合法的微型電動二輪車那我們針對的這個電動二輪車在道路行駛上的一個安全問題我們很關注那尤其我們14歲以上就可以"},{"start":455.633,"end":475.721,"text":"騎這個微型電動二輪車他14歲以上就我剛剛講的國高中生國高中生呢他的這個事故比例看起來是年年而且比例爬升的很快那所以我為什麼要你精準的去掌握呢是因為我們要對症下藥所以我接下來最後 稍微再給我死顏色了我最後就是要告訴你"},{"start":477.216,"end":487.504,"text":"不管是青少年或是高齡那他們的事故主因到底是什麼那我們要有分析因為我知道在你們道安總動員裡面你們有針對細項去做這個事故噪音的統計但是你們既然有統計數字你們就應該要去分析那有分析你才知道找解方嘛那譬如說少年這一部分"},{"start":500.914,"end":516.08,"text":"看起來好像都是對於交通規則或者是標示標線的優先順序或者是怎麼樣好像比較不清楚那我們該怎麼跟教育部或者是跟校園地方政府來合作怎麼來讓青少年能夠安全的行駛微型電動二輪車"},{"start":522.503,"end":537.22,"text":"成年人的部分高齡者有稍微稍微有這個事故比例有稍微增加那我們對高齡者在使用電動的微型電動二輪車的時候我們又應該有什麼樣的解放或是宣導嘛對不對 次長"},{"start":540.472,"end":562.304,"text":"像我們會責請陸正道安司也好或者是跟公務局跟各縣市政府針對這種成因然後來研擬相關的一個配套措施是啦好不好我希望你需要多久的時間一個月給我一個月內給我一個月內給一個書面的一個報告給我一個初步的一個延期規劃好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時54分）好，今天特別謝謝召委剛剛休息10分鐘。請次長。"],["主席：好，請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：次長好。我們曾經共同推動微型電動二輪車的強制納管，從法規的修改到制度的建立，甚至到所謂的過渡期、宣導期，已經在去年12月正式上路強制納管。次長，正式納管已經半年了，我先講我的看法，當初我主張要強制納管，就是因為本席提案認為在實際的交通道路狀況上面，很多的微型電動二輪車常常發生事故，尤其很多外籍移工來到臺灣後，他們的第一部車可能是所謂的微型電動二輪車，過去常常發生事故糾紛，肇事後可能是肇逃或者是事後的賠償等等，常常在地方發生爭議而不知道該怎麼處理跟面對，所以我認為其中一個解方應該是要強制納管、掛牌上路。","現在做了，我認為這是對的，但是看到的這個報導，卻跟我當初的想像有一點不太一樣，當然這個數據我們可以再來討論。就臺中市我得到的數據來說，臺中市境內的微型電動二輪車事故發生率是有降低，但是在公視跟道安總動員的報告裡面，全國的微型電動二輪車事故是往上提升，事故的發生數是年年增，這個部分我不知道次長或是交通部有沒有掌握。現在看到的這個表上，國、高中生跟高齡者的事故數是提高的，尤其國、高中生的事故數比例又更高。次長，你知道這一件事嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：可以請黃司長說明一下？"],["何委員欣純：司長。"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，基本上就如同委員所說的，自從微型電動二輪車開放以後，因為它使用的數量增加，所以事故的數量就跟著增加。"],["何委員欣純：我可以請問一下嗎？在我搜尋到的道安總動員裡的數據，有包含新住民或者是外籍移工的事故發生數嗎？"],["黃司長運貴：這個資料基本上是total加總起來的。"],["何委員欣純：是total加總起來的，那有包含……"],["陳次長彥伯：要的話還要再細分。"],["何委員欣純：還要再細分，是不是？我現在要提的這個問題就是，當時我們認為應該要建立制度、強制納管、要掛牌，就是希望：第一個，知道車流流量；第二個，掌握人車是可以對比起來的，找到車子就可以找到人；第三個，我們認為有強制納保，起碼在事故發生的時候，能夠給予一定的保障。這個部分本來是立意良善，而且現在也確實在執行。不過我再提醒，在這個法規制度面裡，新型的就是新購買的，一定要強制納保跟掛牌上路，在法規修法之前已經存在的是用鼓勵性質的。次長，在修法之前既存的舊有微型電動二輪車的掛牌、納保，我們現在掌握的數據是多少？"],["陳次長彥伯：公路局說使用中的車輛有25萬。"],["何委員欣純：全臺灣的微型電動二輪車大概有幾輛？有掛牌跟沒有掛牌的？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，使用中的我們都要求都要強制掛牌……"],["何委員欣純：這當然知道，所以你好掌握數量嘛！"],["陳局長文瑞：對，去年12月之後，如果沒有掛牌的話，其實已經是違法，那違法的微型電動二輪車，因為使用上有些壽命，所以有些部分可能會報廢。"],["何委員欣純：我建議交通部應該要再更細項地去掌握狀況，因為剛剛的回答就讓我知道，事實上只有掛牌的、新購的車輛已經強制納管，這當然可以精準地掌握數字，這也是當初修法要有這個法規制度最重要的目的。但是我也必須再講，沒有在修法之後如期掛牌納保的既存微型電動二輪車，全臺灣到底數量有多少？這個就是我們有沒有辦法從源頭去掌握整個大數據，我為什麼要要求源頭掌握？第一個，你才能夠清楚地知道全臺灣到底有多少在路上的微型電動二輪車；第二個，你不是只有放任性地，有稽查到、有事故發生的，你才可以掌握。如果沒有的話，你可以去我們中南部的路上走一走、看一看，有許許多多未掛牌或是變形的微型電動二輪車在路上走，這些都是我們現在討論交通安全，不管是行人安全也好或是我們道路設計的路口安全也好，你如果沒有辦法實實在在地掌握在路上到底有哪些交通運具在行駛，你要怎麼去調整我們的道路規範，還有你要講的交通安全整體的推動，次長，你懂我的意思嗎？這個在中南部，你去走一趟就會看得到，這個在鄉下很多耶！"],["陳次長彥伯：對，我跟委員報告……"],["何委員欣純：也不是只有鄉下。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員剛才特別提到微型電動二輪車納管，其實我們當時有訂一個目標，現在又特別提到使用中的、既有的是怎麼樣在處理，我想這部分再麻煩公路局跟地方縣市政府及警察單位去討論一下，如何去做一些像稽查等等的作為，其實以前剛開始要納管的時候，也對於那些店家或是源頭的一些處理……"],["何委員欣純：有去宣導過嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：或者是工廠等等去做過相關的宣導，甚至去開罰，我想可能還是需要再一波這樣的作為。"],["何委員欣純：我們希望你去輔導，我希望你去源頭掌握，我們希望在路上都是合法的微型電動二輪車。針對電動二輪車在道路行駛上的安全問題，我們很關注，尤其14歲以上就可以騎微型電動二輪車，14歲以上就是我剛剛講的國、高中生，但看起來國、高中生的事故比例是年年攀升，而且爬升得很快，所以我為什麼要你精準地去掌握？是因為我們要對症下藥。","召委在給我使眼色了，我最後就是要告訴你，不管是青少年或是高齡者，他們的事故主因到底是什麼？我們要有分析，因為我知道在道安總動員裡面，你們有針對細項去做事故肇因的統計，你們既然有統計數字，你們就應該要去分析，有分析才知道找解方嘛！譬如說，少年這一部分，看起來對於交通規則、標誌標線的優先順序或者是怎麼樣，好像比較不清楚，我們該怎麼跟教育部或者是跟校園、地方政府合作，怎麼讓少年、青少年能夠安全地行駛微型電動二輪車。至於成年人的部分，高齡者的事故比例有稍微、稍微增加，對於高齡者在使用微型電動二輪車的時候，我們又應該有什麼樣的解方或是宣導？次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會責請路政及道安司也好或者是跟工務局或跟各縣市政府，針對這種成因來研擬相關的配套措施。"],["何委員欣純：是啦，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，是。"],["何委員欣純：你需要多久時間，一個月內給我初步的好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們一個月內給一個初步方向的書面報告。"],["何委員欣純：好，給我一個初步的研析和規劃，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的質詢。","現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9f6745c0159069b3ab4fab53e924c0ec1643b132f871dcdd8e6203fd8a27c331a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:33:47 - 11:47:13","影片長度":"00:13:26","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T11:33:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T11:47:13+08:00","duration":806,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.865343750000001,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.915343750000002,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.45534375,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.555968750000002,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.17596875,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.92721875,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.39534375,"end":49.204718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.77846875,"end":58.080968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.689718750000004,"end":53.305343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.760343750000004,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.603468750000005,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.01034375,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.56221875,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.04721875,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.52346875,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.49784375,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.54784375000001,"end":97.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.07909375000001,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.23096875,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.26471875,"end":104.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.44971875,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.89659375000001,"end":105.33096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.99346875,"end":111.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.09034375,"end":107.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.01346875,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.66659375,"end":121.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.36221875000001,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.34034375,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.99409375000002,"end":131.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.54221875000002,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.62221875,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.51659375,"end":133.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.05096875,"end":142.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.18971875,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.49909375000001,"end":163.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.42471875,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.43721875,"end":199.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.49034375000002,"end":195.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.85659375,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.25471875000002,"end":215.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.64284375000003,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.82784375000003,"end":222.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.94971875000002,"end":278.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.72159375,"end":283.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.07096875,"end":290.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.24284375,"end":291.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.40721875,"end":294.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.22534375000004,"end":300.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.08096875,"end":309.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.48471875,"end":325.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.79971875,"end":320.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.03096875,"end":324.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.53284375000004,"end":329.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.15721875,"end":329.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.68409375000005,"end":338.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.62846875,"end":335.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.61096875000004,"end":338.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.16784375000003,"end":437.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.99346875000003,"end":349.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.79721875,"end":362.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.78346875,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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要扣掉這些細節細節也讓"},{"start":196.591,"end":212.718,"text":"這些地方的人能夠更清楚更明確的清楚那就特別拜託部長可以繼續追蹤這個事情趕快落實下來三個月內趕快提出這個公告讓大家可以知道整個SOP然後細節怎麼規範讓大家有所依據好嗎好謝謝那部長你知道琉璃椅嗎"},{"start":219.875,"end":232.411,"text":"知道 琉璃椅大概每年大概這個時間點是最近這個琉璃椅的擴散問題喔越演越烈那以本席所在的雲林為例啊琉璃椅的通報件數從2019年的50件"},{"start":235.695,"end":238.536,"text":"到去年已經暴增到700件了那今年有可能還會再增加那尤其以林內鄉古坑鄉的蟻害最為嚴重所以這個琉璃蟻它不只是危害多種的果樹包括"},{"start":253.963,"end":269.87,"text":"這個蜂蜜產業蜜蜂產業也對從事農事的這些農民造成實質的傷害因為葉嘎啷嘛所以這個學界明確指出說琉璃蟻入侵會導致作物害這個從病蟲害加劇那對於農業農業的實質危害已經構成了面對這樣子的問題不曉得部長現在有沒有解決的方案呢"},{"start":278.769,"end":294.205,"text":"我跟委員報告,雖然說以農業部現在的規範來講,因為它不會危害農作物,所以我們不認為它是一個農業的害蟲但是我覺得不能說不認為農業的害蟲,我們就不理它"},{"start":295.287,"end":322.69,"text":"第二個部分是我覺得要處理這件事情也絕對不是在農業的田間去處理可能在居家的環境也要處理所以我會在會後我會盡速安排跟衛福部起動 對不起 環境部起動一個工作平台看要怎麼樣子的去共同的防治雖然說它不是農業的害同但是我覺得我們可以有更積極的態度去處理"},{"start":324.031,"end":338.426,"text":"因為每一年都發生每一年都發生而且越來越嚴重所以不及時的處理的時候我覺得受害的是我們的民眾或是我們農民所以我會主動的成立一個工作平台看怎麼樣共同來解決"},{"start":339.227,"end":366.435,"text":"太棒了 這個如果部長主動來做這件事情我相信所有農民都會給你泡泡真的因為已經影響到他們的一般的這個作業的工作的這個過程包括也入侵了很多校園 住宅等等那如果說趕快我們農業部發起主動跟他們有一個跨部會的這個討論我想這是非常非常的重要因為學界他要指出說這個"},{"start":367.435,"end":384.17,"text":"琉璃蟻是從東南亞傳來的外來種那依法其實是希望說農業部要趕快啟動這個嚴格管理機制那是不是要列為害蟲這個我想你們有一個評估的標準啊但是我想要建議部長的"},{"start":385.151,"end":389.055,"text":"意思就是說其實過去像這個荔枝樁巷我們當初不就編了1.5億的預算然後跟地方合力釋放它的天敵這個貧富小豐然後再往前看紅火椅的時候那時候也有成立一個國家紅火椅防治中心打造一個全民的這個通報平台"},{"start":406.713,"end":421.892,"text":"那是不是喔面對這個琉璃同樣的這個擴散這麼迅速然後跨場域的影響災害能不能喔等於是設立一個研議一個這個常設的害蟲防治中心啊就是"},{"start":423.173,"end":436.177,"text":"不是只是針對琉璃椅不是只是針對琉璃椅是不是農業部能夠有一個害蟲防治中心是常設的然後針對不同的物種是不是等於是病蟲害等等都可以在這邊"},{"start":438.338,"end":453.206,"text":"討論我跟委員報告尤其還有那個小黑文小黑文為什麼三年就裁撤掉了你知道現在小黑文有多嚴重嗎是不是主委除了劉立以之外小黑文的問題也一起跟衛國討論是不是小黑文真的很嚴重我跟委員報告您剛才所說的建議其實我們現在已經在規劃"},{"start":462.31,"end":491.277,"text":"而不是純粹農業害重我們是農業的病蟲害的監測防治的中心然後在這個中心之下我希望幾個主要的產區都有一個類似區域中心的這種概念然後它包括了很多監測所以我們現在也在陸陸續續跟幾個學校在談合作的方式因為不能只靠農業部或是農業部所屬單位對還有跟學校可以一起來做這樣的話才能夠有更系統的防治"},{"start":491.997,"end":506.296,"text":"那特別是針對一些琉璃椅的部分那會等到工作平台去處理的時候因為他要同步去啟動而不是只有農業這邊來啟動然後如果說需要的經費我想我們也會想辦法來爭取來支持這樣的一個防治的作為"},{"start":507.117,"end":514.278,"text":"這一點也要特別請主委關心趕快編預算然後趕快落實那甚至整個琉璃你們現在因應的整個方向你們跨部會討論出來的時候是不是也可以給我們委員會一個報告讓我們所有的委員我想關心的委員也很多能夠有一個很明確的知道說農業部現在已經很積極的在處理這件事情那當然剛剛講到的小黑文這個也要拜託這個部長因為"},{"start":535.782,"end":554.334,"text":"才三年喔 這個小黑文的這個就裁撤掉了嘛 這個防治中心喔裁撤掉了 那現在其實小黑文的問題並沒有減少不能夠變成習以為常 就忘記了小黑文的影響這個齁 我想我們在工作平台會跟環境部來建議啦因為小黑文是環境部在處理的啦"},{"start":556.575,"end":580.586,"text":"既然你要跟他講琉璃椅這個小黑文就拜託部長也一起跟他提到時候我也會過去他們那邊跟他們講我們環境部有很好的溝通的平台啦包括一些循環再利用的場域這些東西所以我想我們應該很快會有一個比較好的方案那到時候這個會議的一些相關的決議我們也會讓經濟委員會的所有委員都知道"},{"start":581.206,"end":584.328,"text":"謝謝 那另外呢 我想要再請問部長有關於老農津貼排富門檻的問題因為自100年起老農津貼就是設有這個排富門檻就是如果他有不動產超過500萬就是不能夠領這個老農津貼那到現在已經14年了都沒有更新這個排富條款的門檻那其實這當中房價漲了6至8成"},{"start":610.601,"end":617.207,"text":"14年來已經漲了房價已經飛漲了那物價上升了18%所以呢這個排富的標準門檻還留在這個14年前就是民國100年的水準喔已經嚴重失衡所以有很多真正在務農的老農因為他的"},{"start":629.72,"end":645.215,"text":"房產升值而被排除在津貼領取的範圍之內所以他的生活權益也受損了這一點不曉得主委上次也有提起說你會趕快積極去修改這個部分我第一個跟委員說明就是"},{"start":646.076,"end":660.161,"text":"其實農業部有農業部所規劃的一個版本那以現在來看的話其實影響到現在目前必須調整有兩個因素一個是您剛才所提的物價指數的部分它漲了大概15、16"},{"start":662.302,"end":682.68,"text":"一個更重要的是土地的公告限制漲了百分之六十幾所以說我們也認同說適度的排富的現在的條件包括你的所得包括你的那個自有住宅的扣除還有你的財產所得這三個部分我們會做適度的調整"},{"start":685.623,"end":707.106,"text":"那我們現在大概規劃會送到行政院以後再下個會議會送進來所以已經有規劃了規劃的方向可以稍微讓我們知道一下嗎委員大概有十幾個版本我們的規劃的方向大概在委員版本的中間中間就是取折中這樣子我們不是這樣取的我們有一個計算公式"},{"start":707.666,"end":728.383,"text":"那這個計算公式到時候也可能要讓我們所有委員理解因為現在還沒有抱怨因為所有東西必須抱怨以後才能夠對外大方向是朝大家的方向是一致的其實我也要跟部長說我們經濟委員會的所有委員甚至所有關心農業的所有委員其實都可以成為你的助力"},{"start":728.783,"end":746.569,"text":"在你抱怨之前假設你的版本先讓我們大家知道我們甚至都可以協助你說服行政院趕快通過這個版本我們是可以來等於是說大家互相幫忙只要是對農民有利的我們是不分你我一起來努力讓這個趕快來落實"},{"start":748.63,"end":770.628,"text":"我第一個先謝謝所有經濟委員會的委員不管是任何黨派的我覺得對農業都是支持的其實我們擔心的是在黨團那邊的提案這個你也非常清楚第二個部分就是像這個案子其實我們有信心我們可以用我們的數據去說服行政院來支持這個我覺得我們絕對有信心"},{"start":772.249,"end":783.736,"text":"如果你有需要的時候請你不要客氣你就把這個需求發出來我們大家共同來支持那最後呢我真的是也希望說這些老農喔因為他們這一輩子務農喔如果我們的排富條款喔門檻不與時俱進的話把他們排除在外讓他們沒有辦法受到他們應有的保障我覺得是很心酸啦所以也希望我們在做這件事的"},{"start":797.864,"end":801.99,"text":"能夠常常記起他們的這個辛酸跟他們的需求我們會來努力好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝現在請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":738,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時33分）主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：陳部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早，已經午安了啦！"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想要呼應一下前面幾位委員都有談到關於農保清查讓非常多的農民都非常恐慌這件事情，請問一下SOP什麼時候可以出來？包括可能被退保的人什麼時候會有補救的機會，讓他們有一個緩衝時間把他的農保救回來呢？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提問，我知道委員也非常關心，農保保了……"],["張委員嘉郡：一輩子，可能一、二十年。"],["陳部長駿季：很長的時間以後，在64.4那個節點就判生死，所以我們也體認到委員的這種關心，而且實務上我們現在有個設計就是，往前我們先主動清查，如果發現他可能不符合規定的時候，我們就主動的希望他趕快補件，我舉個例子，有一些土地的買賣我們可以用資料庫勾稽，買賣的當下可能農民不了解嚴重性。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：如果他買賣的時候，我們發現了，我們就提前跟他講，他要趕快去補那個地還有一些時間點，所以用這種方式。"],["張委員嘉郡：懂，大概會預留多少時間讓他去補呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在初步規定半年是比較適當，因為太長……"],["張委員嘉郡：半年以內。"],["陳部長駿季：太長也沒有用。"],["張委員嘉郡：我覺得合理。"],["陳部長駿季：大概半年之內，所以我們3個月之內會有……我們現在有很多規範，基本上我們不希望農民花了那麼多年投保以後被判生死，然後過去很多……"],["張委員嘉郡：對，然後就失去了他領老農年金的機會。"],["陳部長駿季：過去很多其實都不是農業部願意主動去查，都是審計部要求我們去查的。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個我完全理解，但是還是希望農業部……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們有一個機制……"],["張委員嘉郡：儘速把機制公告出來，讓所有農民有一個依據，甚至所有在辦檢查農保的這些人員可以有一個依據，然後他們懂得怎麼去協助他們。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：否則基層的辦事人員等於是兩手一攤，他也幫不上忙，他不是不願意幫忙，而是不知道怎麼幫忙，如果像部長所講的，有一個這麼好的機制，就是說他有半年可以補救，甚至他如果遇到其他什麼問題，他可以怎麼解決，讓他們有一個補件的機會的話，這樣子很明確地把它列出來，讓所有的包括農民、包括辦事人員都有所依據，我想農業部接收到的陳情也會減少，就會從基層就把這件事情解決，部長，您同意嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我同意。所以3個月之內，我們會把SOP，包括一些該注意的指引跟事項，特別是農地裡面的水池要不要扣掉、水塔要不要扣掉，這個有時候……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這些細節……"],["陳部長駿季：細節也讓這些地方的人能夠更清楚。"],["張委員嘉郡：更明確、清楚，那就特別拜託部長可以繼續追蹤這個事情，趕快落實下來，3個月內趕快提出公告，讓大家可以知道整個SOP、細節怎麼規範，讓大家有所依據，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。部長，你知道琉璃蟻嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：知道，每年大概這個時間點是最多。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，最近琉璃蟻的擴散問題越演越烈，以本席所在的雲林為例，琉璃蟻的通報件數從2019年50件，到去年已經暴增到700件了，今年有可能還會再增加，尤其以林內鄉、古坑鄉的蟻害最為嚴重，所以琉璃蟻不只是危害多種果樹，包括蜜蜂產業，也對從事農事的這些農民造成實質的傷害，因為牠會咬人，所以學界也明確指出琉璃蟻入侵會導致作物病蟲害加劇，對於農業的實質危害已經構成了，面對這樣子的問題，不曉得部長現在有沒有解決的方案呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，雖然以農業部現在的規範來講，因為琉璃蟻不會危害農作物，所以我們不認為牠是一個農業的害蟲，但是我覺得不能說不認為是農業的害蟲我們就不理它。第二個部分，我覺得要處理這件事情也絕對不是在農業的田間去處理，可能在居家的環境也要處理，所以我會後會儘速安排跟環境部啟動一個工作平臺，看要怎麼樣共同防治。"],["張委員嘉郡：這很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：雖然牠不是農業害蟲，但是我覺得我們可以有更積極的態度去處理，因為每一年都發生……"],["張委員嘉郡：每一年都會發生，而且越來越嚴重。"],["陳部長駿季：每一年都會發生，而且在這個季節，所以不及時處理的時候，我覺得受害的是民眾或是農民，所以我會主動成立一個工作平臺看怎麼樣共同來解決。"],["張委員嘉郡：太棒了，如果部長主動來做這件事情，我相信所有農民都會給你鼓掌，因為真的已經影響到他們一般的……"],["陳部長駿季：是，我知道。"],["張委員嘉郡：作業的工作過程，包括也入侵了很多校園、住宅等等，如果農業部趕快發起，主動跟他們有一個跨部會的討論，我想這是非常非常重要，因為學界指出琉璃蟻是從東南亞傳來的外來種，依法其實是希望農業部要趕快啟動嚴格管理機制，是不是要列為害蟲，我想你們有一個評估的標準，但是我想要建議部長的就是，過去像荔枝椿象，我們當初就編列了1.5億的預算，然後跟地方合力釋放牠的天敵平腹小蜂；再往前看紅火蟻的入侵，那時候也有成立一個國家紅火蟻防治中心，打造一個全民通報平臺。現在面對琉璃蟻同樣擴散這麼迅速，然後造成跨場域的影響、災害，能不能研議一個常設的害蟲防治中心？不是只針對琉璃蟻，是不是農業部能夠有一個常設的害蟲防治中心，針對不同的物種，等於是病蟲害等等都可以在這邊討論。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，您所提的……"],["張委員嘉郡：還有那個小黑蚊，小黑蚊防治中心為什麼三年就裁撤掉了？你知道現在小黑蚊有多嚴重嗎？主委，是不是除了琉璃蟻之外，小黑蚊的問題也一起跟衛福部討論？"],["陳部長駿季：我的手也都被小黑蚊咬耶！"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是！小黑蚊真的很嚴重耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛才所提的建議，其實我們現在已經在規劃，不是純粹農業害蟲，是農業病蟲害的監測防治中心，然後在這個中心之下，我希望幾個主要產區都有一個類似區域中心的概念，包括了很多監測，所以我們現在也陸陸續續跟幾個學校在談合作的方式，因為不能只靠農業部或農業部所屬單位。"],["張委員嘉郡：懂，就等於是產、官、學大家合作。"],["陳部長駿季：對，一起來做，這樣才能更有系統的防治。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯！"],["陳部長駿季：特別是針對一些琉璃蟻的部分，會等到工作平臺去處理，因為要同步啟動，而不是只有農業這邊來啟動。至於所需要的經費，我們也會想辦法爭取來支持這樣一個防治的作為。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點也要特別請主委關心，趕快編預算，然後趕快落實，針對整個琉璃蟻的問題，你們現在因應的整個方向在跨部會討論出來之後，是不是也可以給我們委員會一個報告，讓我們所有的委員……"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想關心的委員也很多，能夠很明確地知道農業部現在已經很積極地在處理這件事情。當然，剛剛講到的小黑蚊，也要拜託部長，因為才三年，這個小黑蚊防治中心就裁撤掉了，但其實現在小黑蚊的問題並沒有減少，不能夠習以為常後就忘記了小黑蚊的影響。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們在工作平臺會跟環境部來建議，因為小黑蚊是環境部在處理的。"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道……"],["陳部長駿季：我們再一起來看怎麼處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：既然你要跟他講琉璃蟻，小黑蚊的部分也拜託部長一起跟他提……"],["陳部長駿季：我們跟環境部……"],["張委員嘉郡：到時候我也會過去他們那邊跟他們講。"],["陳部長駿季：我們跟環境部有很好的溝通平臺啦，包括一些循環再利用的場域等等這些東西，我想我們應該很快會有一個比較好的方案，到時候這個會議的一些相關決議，我們也會讓經濟委員會的所有委員都知道。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。","另外我想要再請問部長有關於老農津貼排富門檻的問題，因為自100年起老農津貼就設有排富門檻，也就是如果有不動產價值超過500萬，就不能夠領老農津貼，到現在已經14年了都沒有更新這個排富條款的門檻，但在這當中房價漲了六至八成，14年來房價已經飛漲了，物價也上升了18%，這個排富的標準門檻還留在14年前，也就是民國100年的水準，已經嚴重失衡，所以有很多真正在務農的老農，因為他的房產升值而被排除在津貼領取的範圍之外，所以他的生活權益也受損了，主委上次也有提到會趕快積極去修改這個部分。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個跟委員說明，其實農業部有農業部所規劃的一個版本，以現在來看的話，其實影響到目前必須調整有兩個因素，一個是您剛才所提的物價指數的部分，上漲了大概15%、16%……"],["張委員嘉郡：將近18%。"],["陳部長駿季：另一個更重要的是土地公告現值漲了百分之六十幾。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，六成至八成，因地區不等。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們也認同適度排富的條件，包括你的所得、包括自有住宅的扣除，還有你的財產所得，這三個部分我們會做適度的調整，我們現在規劃後會送到行政院，在下個會期會送進來，基本上……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以已經有規劃了？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上我們的規劃大概是……"],["張委員嘉郡：規劃的方向可以稍微讓我們知道一下嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：委員大概有十幾個版本，我們的規劃方向大概在委員版本的中間。"],["張委員嘉郡：中間？"],["陳部長駿季：中間。"],["張委員嘉郡：就是取折衷？"],["陳部長駿季：我們不是這樣取的，我們有一個計算公式。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個計算公式到時候也可能要讓我們所有委員理解。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為現在還沒有報院，所有東西必須報院以後才能夠對外，不過大方向跟大家的方向是一致的。"],["張委員嘉郡：我也要跟部長說，我們經濟委員會的所有委員，甚至關心農業的所有委員，其實都可以成為你的助力。在你報院之前，假設你的版本先讓我們大家知道了，我們甚至都可以協助你說服行政院趕快通過這個版本，大家互相幫忙，只要是對農民有利的，我們是不分你我一起來努力，讓這個趕快落實。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，先謝謝所有經濟委員會的委員，不管是任何黨派的，我覺得對農業都是支持的，其實我們擔心的是黨團那邊的提案，這個你也非常清楚。"],["張委員嘉郡：對。"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分，這個案子我們有信心可以用我們的數據去說服行政院來支持，我們絕對有信心。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，如果你有需要的時候，請你不要客氣，你就把這個需求發出來，我們大家共同來支持！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：最後，我真的也希望這些老農，因為他們一輩子務農，如果我們的排富條款門檻不與時俱進，把他們排除在外，讓他們沒有辦法獲得應有的保障，我覺得是很心酸，所以也希望我們在做這件事的時候，能夠常常記起他們的心酸跟他們的需求。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會來努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請蔡易餘委員詢答。","另外作以下宣告，我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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及相關的誘因不足的情況下那我們怎麼樣子來增加農民的提保率有可能他們就不要啊"},{"start":265.622,"end":293.72,"text":"所以我才會說我們現在更重要的作為是提高保單的品質去設計一些真正的符合農民需求的而且每一張保單你提到了設計保單那今天我們金管會的保險局也有來那對於農民的保單的設計那當然了會不會我們產業界的就是說所有的保險公司他們不願意共同的投入會不會"},{"start":294.82,"end":314.949,"text":"我先跟委員說明也許金管會等一下再說明我覺得現在我們遇到的商業的保險公司其實他都還蠻樂意配合政策的那現在很重要一點就是我們保險的風險有沒有過去累積的資料並不夠長所以他在有限的資料去設計的時候那個風險值會變高"},{"start":317.45,"end":338.019,"text":"風險值一變高的時候保費就會變高保費變高的時候農民看到這個保費也不想保了所以變成一個惡性循環但是隨著時間拉長你的保險本身的數據的累積夠多的時候就能夠趨近於一個比較合理的風險值而且我們會看就像剛才委員有提到的"},{"start":338.399,"end":357.3,"text":"如果商業型保單現在平均的理賠率47那47我剛才說的好的理賠率應該是70到80包括可以扣除它的成本那如果比較低的話我們就會希望它能夠降低保費做一個動態的調整那這個東西就是我們現在在努力的"},{"start":357.5,"end":379.983,"text":"但是對啊這是你們農業部期待的方向嗎但是商業保險這些保險公司有沒有辦法共同配合國家的政策嗎這也是我們在下一波應該要共同來檢討的嗎那你說到了去年的我看到你說去年我們的天然災害救助的八十幾億"},{"start":381.164,"end":403.62,"text":"去年的災損是多少錢我的資料只有到112年112年是150億左右那隨著氣候變遷的條件因此加劇的情況下會不會導致於我們天然災害的這個受損的金額越來越高呢你有觀察到相關的趨勢嗎"},{"start":405.485,"end":423.721,"text":"這個趨勢一定是逐步的上升啦等於說我們現在的像去年上個颱風那今年還沒有到颱風季真的颱風來我們已經因為低溫有沒有造成一些開花不結果的這個品項公告的品項有超過60項已經蠻高了表示說"},{"start":425.852,"end":440.422,"text":"就是極端的天后造成農業經營不確定性越來越高這個越來越高的時候以去年大概農損大概500多億那我相信今年也不會太低啦以現在的天后來講也不會太低所以"},{"start":441.122,"end":455.952,"text":"當我們加入了農業保險這樣的項目能不能共同的來就是說來幫助我們涵蓋所有受災農民的這樣子的一個就是"},{"start":456.892,"end":474.622,"text":"受災的金額有沒有辦法共同來協助這就是我們未來的目標我們會再跟商業保險公司剛才也有委員提到農會也是一個可以承保的單位那農會跟農民的互動會更好也許我們可以共同努力還有一個重點就是"},{"start":475.402,"end":493.536,"text":"中央跟地方因為農業部現在出百分一般都出二分之一那有些品項是地區型的品項地方政府會再加碼甚至於加了百分之三十百分之四十所以農民有時候只負擔百分之十百分之二十所以這個比例在這個法定其實"},{"start":494.617,"end":509.718,"text":"我覺得它不會影響到中央跟地方的合作啦所以後續我想我們一定會透過中央跟地方的合作如果適當的品項的時候看怎麼樣去協助農民來做這個分擔如果風險高的話也許它的比例可以提高一點"},{"start":510.379,"end":525.693,"text":"好還有你說了你去年你就答應我了今年你三個豬瘟都拔針了你說我們拔針的時候台灣的稻谷是不是可以輸到日本"},{"start":526.725,"end":542.638,"text":"臺灣在什麼 稻谷 稻桿對 我們現在也在處理這個區塊因為臺灣的稻草啦對 稻草 稻桿嘛 做榻榻米的那個我們現在已經在談了因為當初他們有一個理由就是因為我們還有這些傳統豬瘟存在"},{"start":544.099,"end":568.807,"text":"那現在沒有了包括我們的豬肉的生煎豬肉的削日本還有相關的稻草的削日其實他們也蠻需要業者蠻需要的做榻榻米啊那些東西所以我們同步已經在跟他們在談而且我們自己也可以處理我們的農費嘛對不對減少減少那個人家燒稻感吧委員關憲的我們一直在做啦那現在目前進行了怎樣喔談判的東西齁"},{"start":570.285,"end":594.553,"text":"還要再跟他們爐啦還沒爐成功是不是這個要繼續努力啦還有啊剛才有委員提到我們彰化的194號米是你們農改廠出來的啊是不是是不是也應該要共同的推銷到日本嘛它的那個米相跟傳統的日本米的米相是不一樣的不是月光米的那種品種我跟委員報告我們現在有個想法就是"},{"start":595.333,"end":622.91,"text":"我們會針對不同地區的特色米會建立地區的品牌然後會跟日方的通路做連結像今年二月初我們就邀請了日方的幾個大的商社來台灣然後我們有做了一個簡單的媒合讓他們了解台灣到底有多少種米讓他們試吃可是他們有擴大嘛對不對我們台灣米蔬日有擴大對不對"},{"start":624.062,"end":649.653,"text":"沒有 擴大是固定的但是如果說我們的族群鎖定在比較高端的話它的配額外的關稅就算比較高那個售價還是有利潤的啦好那這個部分再麻煩你協助好不好會 一定會要協助我們彰化有非常多的米喔都是可以適合去外銷到日本去的而且要建立特有的品牌啦這個我想我們會來努力好 那那個美國的對等關稅7月8號會談完嗎我們"},{"start":653.756,"end":675.705,"text":"會談完嗎?台美的關稅現在正在談判中那農業部的立場還是一致的就是在確保糧食安全產業永續的情形之下我們會尋求一個雙贏貿易雙贏的一個方法那我們不會放棄水稻讓它變成外界所說的關稅會不會最後要拿我們的農業去換"},{"start":677.086,"end":697.353,"text":"我想我想總統已經宣示了很多次的包括院長也說的農民農漁民優先我們絕對不會犧牲農業來換取工業的一個利益那這個部分一定是國家整體考量那農業部有農業部的堅持我們也一定會堅持那7月8號會出來嗎照理論上應該要一定要出來對啊會嗎"},{"start":703.544,"end":718.467,"text":"我相信會吧會啊我相信因為美國就三個月嘛三個月他就一定要處理啊你覺得會出來嗎那我覺得我們現在正在做積極的談判啊所以你覺得7月8號就是會出來了我希望"},{"start":719.54,"end":730.051,"text":"什麼時候出來不是重點出來的結果是我們能夠大家都很開心的對那才是重點對所以你也不確定7月8號因為談判還在進行當中是不是對好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時21分）謝謝主席，我想要請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，對於農業保險的修正，在六年以後降低補助可以達60%的上限，我有看到你說你不建議拿掉，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為六年快到了，所以我們必須要來討論，今天很多委員所講的就是覆蓋率不高的問題，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你認為拿掉60%的上限，對於法律沒有一個確定性，讓公務人員也沒有遵循的標準，那我們還有幾種修法？就像我們剛才提到的，畢竟目前農業保險的保單品項沒有辦法涵蓋全方面，例如，今年彰化縣的荔枝因為低溫著果不成，導致產量受損，但是過去農業保險的保單內容只有就氣溫太高等相關性提出相關的保單，而沒有對於氣溫太低造成著果不易產生產果量不足的情況，給予保單的內容，在這個部分你們未來怎麼樣提供相關的保單呢？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的提問，特別是委員提出這樣一個案子，其實也讓我們有機會能夠重新去思考，因為委員的版本把六年以下劃掉了以後，第二項又加了前項要去做滾動檢討，這樣子前項變成只有前面五年而已，但是前面五年已經過了……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是我們增加六年或者是……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我的意思是把它留著，第二項加入要做滾動檢討，這是第一個。第二個部分，委員覺得重要的精神，我們有catch到，我們要協助在某一個條件之下，讓農民的保費能夠少繳一點，我們是希望用什麼條件，我舉個例子，他如果每年都是從事同樣作物保險的時候，相對地，他的保費是可以打折的，我們用保費打折的概念會讓農民有另外一個誘因，就是我不是跟天氣對賭，今年好像颱風會來，我就來投保，明年好像機會不大就不投保，我希望他們是持續性的投保，這樣子保險的覆蓋率，也就是保險分攤風險的程度會變大。他如果連續兩年或三年都有保的話，保費的打折比例可以調整，這樣其實也達到委員的目的，因為保費打折了以後，等於政府增加補助，其實也是達到同樣的目的。但是對農民來講，不會造成農民認為這都是由政府來出就好，他就不要去管理，不要去幹什麼，我就等到……"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是問題是目前我們在涵蓋率不足的情況下，我們已經到了六年要降低保費補助只能60%的上限，對於農民的投保率以及我們希望拉高農業保險的覆蓋率，會不會也有相關的影響？農民也會覺得未來整個保費的補助以及相關誘因不足的情況下，我們怎麼樣增加農民的投保率，有可能他們就不要投保，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我才會說，我們現在更重要的作為是提高保單的品質，去設計一些真正符合農民需求的保單，而且每一張保單……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，你提到了設計保單，今天我們金管會的保險局也有來，對於農業保險的保單設計，產業界所有保險公司會不會不願意共同投入？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員說明，也請金管會等一下再說明，現在我們遇到的商業保險公司，其實都還滿樂意配合政策的，現在很重要的一點就是我們保險風險過去累積的資料並不夠多，所以它在有限的資料要去設計的時候，那個風險值會變高，風險值一變高，保費就會變高，當保費變高的時候，農民看到這個保費也不想保了，所以變成一個惡性循環。但是隨著時間拉長，保險本身的數據累積夠多的時候，就能夠趨近於一個比較合理的風險值，而且我們會看，就像剛才委員有提到的，商業型保單現在平均的理賠率是47%，我剛才說好的理賠率應該是70%到80%，包括扣除他的成本，如果理賠率比較低的話，我們就會希望它能夠降低保費，來做一個動態調整，這個部分就是我們現在在努力的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，這是我們農業部期待的方向，但是這些商業保險公司有沒有辦法共同配合國家的政策，這也是我們在下一波應該要共同來檢討的。你提到去年我們的天然災害救助八十幾億，去年的災損是多少錢？我的資料只有到112年，112年是150億左右，隨著氣候變遷條件因子加劇的情況下，會不會導致我們天然災害受損的金額越來越高呢？你有觀察到相關的趨勢嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個趨勢一定是逐步地上升，像去年有3個颱風，今年還沒有到颱風季或真的颱風來，我們已經因為低溫造成一些開花不結果的狀況，公告的品項就超過60項，已經滿高的，表示極端天候造成農業經營的不確定性越來越高，去年農損將近五百多億，我相信今年也不會太低，以現在的天候來講也不會太低。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以當我們加入了農業保險的項目，能不能共同來幫助、涵蓋所有受災農民的受災金額，有沒有辦法共同來協助？這就是我們未來的目標，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會再跟商業保險公司討論，剛才也有委員提到，農會也是一個可以承保的單位，農會跟農民的互動會更好，也許我們可以共同努力。還有一個重點，中央跟地方，因為農業部一般都出二分之一，有些品項是地區型的品項，地方政府會再加碼，甚至加了30%、40%，所以農民有時候只負擔10%、20%，這個比例其實我覺得不會影響到中央跟地方的合作。後續我們一定會透過中央跟地方的合作，如果有適當的品項，我們再看怎麼樣去協助農民來做分擔，如果風險高的話，也許它的比例可以提高一點。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，還有你說的去年你就答應我了，今年你3個豬瘟都拔針了，你說我們拔針的時候，臺灣的稻穀是不是可以輸到日本？"],["陳部長駿季：臺灣的什麼？"],["謝委員衣鳯：稻穀，稻稈那個……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在也在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對不對？農廢。"],["陳部長駿季：也在處理這個區塊，因為臺灣的稻草……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，稻草，就是稻稈嘛！做榻榻米的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在已經在談了，因為當初他們有一個理由就是因為我們還有這些傳統豬瘟存在，現在沒有了，包括我們的生鮮豬肉銷日本，還有稻草銷日，其實他們業者蠻需要的，做榻榻米等那些東西。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！他們有需求嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們已經同步跟他們在談了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：而且我們自己也可以處理我們的農廢嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：減少人家燒稻稈嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：委員關切的，我們一直在做啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在進行的怎樣？"],["陳部長駿季：談判的東西還要再跟他們「盧」啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：還沒「盧」成功是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：這個要繼續努力啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有剛才有委員提到，我們彰化的194號米是你們農改場出來的，是不是？是不是也應該要共同推銷到日本嘛！它的米相跟傳統日本米的米相是不一樣的，不是越光米的品種。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我跟委員報告，我們現在有個想法就是，我們會針對不同地區的特色米建立地區品牌，然後會跟日方的通路做連結，像今年2月初，我們就邀請了日方的幾個大商社來臺灣，然後我們做了一個簡單的媒合，讓他們了解臺灣到底有多少種米，讓他們試吃，然後做媒合。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是他們有quota嘛！對不對？我們臺灣米輸日有quota，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，quota是固定的，但是如果我們的族群鎖定在比較高端的話，就算它配額外的關稅比較高，售價還是有利潤的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個部分再麻煩你協助，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，一定會協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們彰化有非常多的米都是適合外銷到日本的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，而且要建立特有的品牌，這個我們會來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，美國的對等關稅7月8號會談完嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們臺美的關稅現在正在談判中，農業部的立場還是一致的，就是在確保糧食安全、產業永續的前提之下，我們會尋求貿易雙贏的方法，我們不會放棄水稻，讓它變成外界所說的零關稅。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會最後要拿我們的農業去換？"],["陳部長駿季：總統已經宣示了很多次，包括院長也說了，農漁民優先嘛！我們絕對不會犧牲農業來換取工業的利益，這個部分一定是國家整體考量，農業部有農業部的堅持，我們也一定會堅持。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那7月8日會出來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：理論上應該一定要出來啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：會嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我相信會吧！"],["謝委員衣鳯：會啊？"],["陳部長駿季：我相信，因為美國就3個月嘛！3個月他就一定要處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你覺得會出來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在正在做積極的談判。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你覺得7月8號會出來？"],["陳部長駿季：什麼時候出來不是重點，出來的結果是我們大家都能夠很開心，那才是重點。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，所以你也不確定7月8號？"],["陳部長駿季：因為談判還在進行當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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影片有時候他會說他造假他隨便說說啦所以變成說他如果真正的筆錄過程裡面他確認說他也承認他是從中國帶進來的話那就會依照相關的處罰的規定去處罰"},{"start":252.629,"end":267.528,"text":"那第二個部分就是我們會在機場邊境去做更加強的一個宣導我覺得我們現在很重視整個肉類製品慢慢的那個帶進來的旅客那個比例有越來越低了"},{"start":268.489,"end":290.869,"text":"動直率的方法然後現在像這種有點加熱會讓人家覺得說好像是可以的那這個誤解的部分我想我們會用用圖卡的方式或其他的方式能夠讓更多人知道這個我們會來努力好 那署長去查一下看你們這個訪台結果怎麼樣那今天跟本席報告一下那我再跟這個部長請教一下"},{"start":293.518,"end":319.817,"text":"這個齁 在美國 他有查到說有一種這個有毒的真菌 核古蓮苞菌蓮苞菌 蓮苞菌 他這個走私到美國去他們認為說這是一種這個潛在的農業恐怖主義的武器那我也記得說在幾年前 台灣也有類似這種案子那當然不是這種菌 就是說從中國那邊也有寄一些不明的一些種子啊土壤來到台灣"},{"start":320.998,"end":341.67,"text":"我跟委員說明就是河谷連刀菌正式的學名叫連刀菌不是連包菌那這個菌其實在台灣已經有發生的紀錄包括在小麥包括在玉米還有包括在稻米都有發生這樣的一個情況然後最主要是河本科然後他的致病"},{"start":342.33,"end":354.338,"text":"病原是不會比我們的道樂病的那個病原還強所以他現在目前是在檢疫的規定裡面不是因斯檢疫的項目之一那為什麼美國認為說他這個我要講的第二個重點就是說"},{"start":358.28,"end":375.931,"text":"那是因為他附著在植物種子帶進來那個可能危害個別危害比較輕微可以後續可以防治處理但是你如果純粹拿這個菌種菌種帶進來的話就有可能像剛才我也有提到可能變成一個灰色攻擊"},{"start":377.192,"end":393.984,"text":"就是說他可以混在任何的方式去做做特意的撒播的時候那就會變成短時間之內大面積的危害那樣的一個情況可能就會造成一些恐慌啊或是方式在台灣之前有發生過"},{"start":396.766,"end":417.664,"text":"有這個病但是沒有說被人用這種濃縮的菌種去做惡意的散布啦這個是沒有啦但是我們可能也要預防啦所以後續我也要求我們房間署未來針對在X光檢驗的時候因為它包裝應該會比較特殊嘛如果看到的話要特別去加強去查處啦"},{"start":418.525,"end":444.807,"text":"這是第一個部分然後回歸到田間的時候我們現在目前對這支菌的防治方法都已經都有一些現有的防治的技術跟防治的藥劑然後主要的那個品種像水稻或玉米都有一些抗病的品種那這樣的話也會降低萬一被惡意的做那個傳播的時候也會有基本的抗性"},{"start":445.808,"end":461.979,"text":"所以基本上在台灣是有技術去克服說這種如果說進來的話它的蔓延對我們已經因為它本身就已經存在在台灣了對好OK那我再請教一下那那個書長請回我再請教一下這個農業金融署的這個李書長"},{"start":468.06,"end":491.474,"text":"這個請教一下就是說這個央行在從去年開始那就陸陸續續有一些這個打房的一些措施那其中有央行的理事有提到說那會不會有可能這個有關土建農的貸款或是說一些民間的這些貸款跑到這個農會信用部去所以我想請問一下從去年大概年底到現在"},{"start":492.395,"end":503.068,"text":"有關於這個農漁會的信用部的這一個有關土建農的貸款還有這一個你們是有所謂的這個農安貸款嗎這個比例有增加嗎"},{"start":505.114,"end":522.484,"text":"是 各位報告那農安貸款的話大概最近一年他大概每個月承作的建樹跟進耳是大概相當並沒有明顯的增加沒有明顯的增加對 那另外針對信用部承作土建農的情況我們每個月都有在追蹤然後都有在督導以上"},{"start":523.064,"end":550.592,"text":"我是說有沒有成長的比例啊從去年比如說九月到現在一年的時間有沒有這個成長啊相關的那個比例我是不是可以匯報再提供給委員不過我們每個月都是有在注意好 那就你的印象所及有成長嗎應該是大概差不多差不多 沒有特別的成長沒有說因為銀行那邊比較難貸款的跑來我們這個農業會信用部來貸款大概因為農安貸款是從大概兩年前開始推動第一年的時候大概成長的速度比較快那大概這一年大概是已經有趨緩的現象"},{"start":552.853,"end":567.071,"text":"那你這個把這個相關的數字給我因為我去查資料至少到去年年底是有增加的啦但是你是認為說這個算是屬於還算是正常現象那你把這個相關數字提供給本席參考好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":610,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時11分）謝謝主席，我們請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["李委員坤城：還有防檢署的徐署長。"],["主席：徐署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。一個禮拜之前有一個新聞，有個臺灣的藝人去中國，從中國帶回一個特產，叫做「活珠子」，這是南京的一個特產，就是把一個胚胎蛋帶回臺灣，請問農業部知不知道這件事情？防檢署知不知道這件事情？"],["徐署長榮彬：知道。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有去查？這有沒有違反動物傳染病防治條例的規定？"],["徐署長榮彬：跟委員說明，原則上在我們的應施檢疫物裡面，這是屬於一個活動物，它是一個產品，是需要來申請的。"],["李委員坤城：他有申請嗎？"],["徐署長榮彬：他沒有申請。"],["李委員坤城：可以帶進來嗎？"],["徐署長榮彬：當然不能帶進來。"],["李委員坤城：因為這個事情是一個禮拜之前的，請問一下你們有去查嗎？"],["徐署長榮彬：後來我們有請同仁去追查，因為這個產品是夾帶進來的，我們之前沒有當場搜到，後來去查，那個產品已經沒有辦法去……"],["李委員坤城：可是他有影片啊！"],["徐署長榮彬：有影片，所以我們是追查那個人，就是請當事人來說明，這會有所謂的罰責。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有找當事人來做說明？"],["徐署長榮彬：我們分署的同仁有去訪談。"],["李委員坤城：有做訪談了？那有沒有確認，他的確是從中國帶回來這個東西？"],["徐署長榮彬：這部分我可能還要再確認一下，因為這部分的訪談紀錄我還沒有看到。"],["李委員坤城：你瞭解一下，等一下跟本席報告一下結果是怎麼樣，好不好？因為他已經違反了我們的動物傳染病防治條例了嘛，對不對？"],["徐署長榮彬：對，它是應實施的檢疫物，不能帶進來。"],["李委員坤城：現在尤其是暑假又快到了，我也很擔心暑假到了之後，往返兩岸的人會愈來愈多，怎麼去防範類似這種帶回來……我認為他是知道，但還故意在他的直播節目說什麼是從中國帶回來的，所以怎麼去防範？因為暑假就快到了，有可能兩岸來往比較頻繁而發生類似這樣的情況。"],["徐署長榮彬：跟委員說明，當事人知不知道這個不能帶進來，我不曉得，但原則上我們在宣導方面會再強化，可能是在出入境的人流當中再強化，因為有一些人不曉得，以前我們的國人同胞其實很少會帶這種所謂的「活珠子」進來，以前我們對東南亞鴨仔蛋這部分的規定就很明確，所以在東南亞的旅客都瞭解這個不能帶，但是中國的「活珠子」之前很少人有聽過，所以這個我們在宣導方面會加強。"],["李委員坤城：這算是活體的啊！"],["徐署長榮彬：原則上、理論上它是有加熱，其實加熱也不行，在活動物的檢疫物裡面，如果有加工也要經過申請。"],["李委員坤城：這個也不能因為他不知道就不罰啊！"],["徐署長榮彬：當然要罰，只是我不曉得當事人知不知道，可能有些民眾也不曉得。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們要加強宣傳，但我是認為他不可能不知道這個是違法的啦！難道我們之前的宣傳都是做假的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這件事的處理是，剛才我們防檢署署長也提過了，他們的分署會去訪談，訪談後如果確定他是從中國帶回的，雖然當下已經沒有那個實證了，但是如果在筆錄過程中，他……"],["李委員坤城：但是影片有啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，但有時候他會說影片造假、他隨便說說的，所以變成他如果在真正的筆錄過程裡面，確認他也承認他是從中國帶進來的話，就會依照相關的處罰規定去處罰。第二個部分就是，我們會在機場邊境更加強宣導，我覺得我們現在很重視肉類製品，把那個帶進來的旅客慢慢就愈來愈低了。","現在像這種的，有一點加熱，讓人家覺得好像是可以的，對於這個誤解的部分，我們會用圖卡或是用其他的方式讓更多人知道，這個我們會來努力。"],["李委員坤城：好，請署長去查一下，看你們訪談的結果怎麼樣，今天跟本席報告一下。","我再跟部長請教一下，美國有查到一種有毒的真菌──禾穀鐮孢菌，這個就是……"],["陳部長駿季：禾穀鐮刀菌。"],["李委員坤城：這個走私到美國去，他們認為這是一種潛在農業恐怖主義的武器，我也記得幾年前臺灣也有類似這種案子，當然不是這種菌，就是從中國那邊進一些不明的種子、土壤來到臺灣，不曉得部長知不知道這件事情？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，正式的學名是「禾穀鐮刀菌」而不是「禾穀鐮孢菌」，這個菌在臺灣其實已經有發生的紀錄了，包括在小麥、玉米，還有在稻米都有發生這樣的情況，最主要這是禾本科的，而它致病的病源不會比我們稻熱病的病源還強，所以它目前在檢疫的規定裡面不是應施檢疫的項目之一。"],["李委員坤城：那為什麼美國認為它是一種……"],["陳部長駿季：我要講的第二個重點是，那是因為它附著在植物上，種子帶進來對個別的危害比較輕微，後續可以防治處理，但是如果純粹拿這個菌種，把菌種帶進來的話，就有可能像剛才委員提到的，會變成一種灰色攻擊，就是說它可以混在任何的方式去做特意撒播的時候，在短時間之內就會變成大面積的危害，那樣的情況可能就會造成一些恐慌或者是……"],["李委員坤城：這個在臺灣之前有發生過嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有這個病，但是沒有被人用這種濃縮的菌種去做惡意散布，這個是沒有啦！但是我們可能也要預防，所以後續我也會要求防檢署未來針對X光檢驗的時候，因為它的包裝應該會比較特殊，如有看到就要特別去加強查處，這是第一個部分。","回歸到田間的時候，我們目前對這株菌的防治方法都有一些現有的防治技術跟防治的藥劑，主要的品種像水稻或玉米，都有一些抗病的品種，這樣也會降低萬一被惡意傳播的時候，也會有基本的抗性。"],["李委員坤城：所以基本上如果這種有進來的話，在臺灣是有技術去克服它的蔓延？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為它本身就已經存在臺灣了。"],["李委員坤城：OK，署長請回。我再請教一下農業金融署的李署長。","請教一下，央行從去年開始就陸陸續續提出一些打房的措施，其中有位央行的理事提到，有關土建融的貸款或是一些民間的貸款有沒有可能跑到農會信用部去？所以我想請問一下，大概從去年年底到現在，有關農漁會信用部關於土建融的貸款，你們是不是有所謂的農安貸款嗎？這個比例有增加嗎？"],["李署長聰勇：跟委員報告，農安貸款最近一年每個月承作的件數和金額是大概相當，並沒有明顯的增加。"],["李委員坤城：沒有明顯的增加？"],["李署長聰勇：對，另外，針對信用部承作土建融的情況，我們每個月都有在追蹤，也都有在督導，以上。"],["李委員坤城：不是，我是說有沒有成長的比例，比如從去年9月到現在一年的時間有沒有成長？"],["李署長聰勇：相關的比例是不是可以會後再提供給委員？不過我們每個月都有在注意。"],["李委員坤城：就你的印象所及有成長嗎？"],["李署長聰勇：應該是大概差不多。"],["李委員坤城：差不多，沒有特別的成長，沒有因為銀行那邊比較難貸款，所以他跑來我們農漁會信用部貸款？"],["李署長聰勇：因為農安貸款是從兩年前開始推動，第一年的時候成長的速度比較快，這一年已經有趨緩的現象。"],["李委員坤城：好，你再把相關的數字給我，因為我查到的資料，至少到去年年底是有增加的，但是你認為這個屬於……"],["李署長聰勇：正常現象。"],["李委員坤城：還算是正常現象，你把相關數字提供給本席參考，好不好？"],["李署長聰勇：好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（張委員嘉郡代）：接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們現在持續本來是有所謂的法律的禁核問題勞保跟農保的部分那這個部分我想我們的法治單位都已經解釋已經可以排除了所以我們現在基本上要推這樣的方式是沒問題的那我們會併同其他的委員的意見我們希望說在下個會期能夠併提上來做一些修正"},{"start":231.508,"end":243.061,"text":"因為我們認為說既然要檢討啦不要是好像頭痛一頭腳痛一腳而是我們既然要討論儲金的問題我們就一併討論因為一併討論的話雖然這是不一樣的"},{"start":248.206,"end":251.349,"text":"我們的這個農退儲金我們如何去增加覆蓋率跟我們的增加輕農重農的誘因這是兩個區塊可是兩件事可是我們既然要討論我們就一併討論"},{"start":263.943,"end":286.842,"text":"要不然每一次就是一下子修這個然後下一次又拿出來修那一個我覺得這個對我們修法的整個時程也會有所延宕所以這個部分在麻煩我們的部長我們來努力那另外一個部分是我們其實常常接到我們農民或是農會跟我們說我們常常"},{"start":288.311,"end":314.01,"text":"就是突然之間人家已經保了十幾年了然後突然跟他講說哇 你要被退保因為你是工商負責人那因為你戶籍異動因為你地籍異動因為你這個地價稅的問題然後你的勞農重複然後因為你人不在國內還有就是說你耕地沒有到達一分地然後他可能一二十年他農保這樣的一個資格就被"},{"start":314.75,"end":342.406,"text":"去除掉了 其實對於他是很傷耶他保養過的時間耶 我們到底有什麼樣的一個機制而不是好像我們想到了要清查就清查一次 然後有些是耕地為為打一分地的 都是在最後他已經要申辦了 結果我們農會把他調出來資料他賣了賣到一切切切切切到"},{"start":343.683,"end":346.395,"text":"耕地餵打一分地沒辦法了"},{"start":347.472,"end":374.137,"text":"已經半個月了 沒辦法了要怎麼辦所以到底我們現在有什麼方式現在已經變成農會非常頭痛的問題也是農民現在大家都不知道我到底什麼時候我可以去確認我的身份而且這一二十年來他的保養 他的錢都一直在叫一直在叫 叫到半天就跟他說 不好意思你的資格不好吧 這怎麼辦"},{"start":375.297,"end":401.049,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們也注意到這個問題那第一個要先跟委員說明歷來的這些查都是審計部要求農業部來查的那我們現在是六四四的部分我們自己能夠定一個時間標準嗎我們有我們的標準那我現在就是說我不希望說六四四清查就是一審查就定生死我希望能夠更提前的去用輔導的方式讓這些"},{"start":401.889,"end":416.399,"text":"有一些不符合規定的能夠在真正清查的時候能夠補正他的資格是啊這個部分我們已經在設計而且是有跟農會在溝通也許在六四事之前的半年就開始去啟動這樣子的一個溝通"},{"start":418.5,"end":438.892,"text":"主動的去了解以後如果他不符合的話那他趕快想辦法補相關的資料做調整對 他可以做調整的讓他有機會調整而不是到最後就是一句話說抱歉你一定要提報那65歲以上我們是不會去特別去查的啦"},{"start":439.639,"end":464.593,"text":"沒錯啊 可是不特別去查重點是他要去申辦的時候對這些資料還是會顯露出來啊對 所以我才會說就是我們有很多東西是可以主動的去了解的時候他有什麼問題的時候在真正的去清查的時候能夠補件的 能夠調整的就盡快調整部長 那你這個機制SOP什麼時候要把它訂出來這應該就有了嘛沒有啊 現在還是問題還是產生啊"},{"start":469.333,"end":484.843,"text":"我們現在正在跟各個農會來做一些溝通那基本上老保局的部分技術上已經沒有問題了所以應該很快可以推出來好那什麼時候很快一個月可以把這個SOP我覺得我們就把它公開好就是說未來我們到底在哪一個時間點我們可能會去做這樣的一個告知或是這個資料做一個核對"},{"start":496.571,"end":524.503,"text":"然後呢我們可以多久來做一個補正那補正的時候又有多少的一個時間點可以去做那個澄清或是更正我覺得這個部分我們應該把它訂出來讓農民都知道這現在SOP我們都已經擬好了現在就是跟農會溝通的部分我們應該三個月內之類的三個月我覺得我們就把資訊公開化因為現在已經不比以前了"},{"start":525.923,"end":542.171,"text":"現在從LINE 從資訊 大家都可以得知我可以有什麼樣的一個更正辦法那我自己如果身為有這樣的一個可能被退保的機制 我可以怎麼補救我就把它訂出來 訂出來之後就不會有這些枝枝節節說我已經叫一二十年了 我的權益全部被受損然後權益就不見了這部分再麻煩三個月了那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":555.557,"end":561.3,"text":"我給我們部長看一個我們現在的投保率是53.7%其實部長你可以看從蔬菜類雜糧類蔬菜類甚至果樹類甚至養蜂產業"},{"start":571.544,"end":579.946,"text":"他這個都偏低喔你看我們的養豐產是0.7而已喔農業設施才18.2%然後甚至在我們漁業的部分我們從漁業或水產才3.2%跟1.5%甚至到我們的畜牧業在家禽類才21.4%所以因為這幾樣為什麼他們的一個投保率這麼低 有沒有去檢討過"},{"start":599.96,"end":619.211,"text":"我想第一個養蜂產業我們現在在溝通因為養蜂產業本身就是一個類似游牧民族除非是全國性的像龍眼樹有沒有那時候不開花那造成比較大面積的時候它不能遷移造成影響但是我們一直灌輸一個觀念就是保險是一個"},{"start":620.997,"end":642.254,"text":"協助他能夠降低他的損失因為以前養蜂我們沒有辦法蜂農沒有辦法得到災損那現在有了那基本上他有登載的地方因為要依照登載的地方所以我覺得這個部分已經可以慢慢的可以去鼓勵他們但是我要講的是今天有"},{"start":643.354,"end":661.201,"text":"這麼多那麼沒有辦法去增加他的投保率其實問題在哪裡問題是在於說我們的品項其實也不廣泛我們目前才28個品項44張的保單可是你看喔我們商業保險承辦21項農會體系的政策是7項可是你看比例當中農會的體系承辦的他的"},{"start":671.645,"end":699.513,"text":"所謂投保率都會比較高喔是不是那為什麼跟農民有信心感有信心指數而且是政策型的對是政策型的所以呢我們是不是應該有一些更多的政策性來讓農會來做賬主辦然後增加我們投保率的一個部分然後還有一個就是說因為你的設計你的保單設計根本不符合農民的需求"},{"start":700.553,"end":717.535,"text":"這個才是最大的問題所以我們現在每一個畜產或是漁產或是農作物說真的每一個樣態它的狀況都不一樣甚至是我們目前整個氣候的變化還有我們在理培的部分"},{"start":718.869,"end":735.601,"text":"商業保險公司都很嚴格捏就很嚴格捏我相信平常要求保單的時候要收保費的時候是一個臉捏可是要理賠又是另外一個臉捏這個部分你有沒有去了解所以大家信心"},{"start":736.181,"end":747.144,"text":"就不高啊我投保那麼多結果我要用的時候用不到這才是關鍵啊所以我覺得部長這個真的整個都要檢討既然我們要檢討農業保險因為我們農業保險從110年到現在這也是我們民進黨的好政策"},{"start":755.467,"end":779.143,"text":"都要保養 讓他雙軌並行 有災損我們政府的災損補助也有農業保險可是因為現在天氣的變化所以我們其實應該是要把每一年的這個氣候樣本還有災損紀錄 其實都要做一個統整紀錄一個延續性 帶狀性的你沒有做這個帶狀性的 我告訴你我們兩天要去鄉下保養 都說不走啦"},{"start":783.306,"end":801.469,"text":"全部的公務員 像水管 水道 這一次其實我們就有改變了他抽樣取樣的部分所以有部分 可是他的理賠率也不高啦 也不高啦可是如果我們沒有去改變這個理賠率更低啊"},{"start":802.37,"end":816.303,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個部分是很重要我們一定要有一個參數來做調整讓商業保險能夠有依據不然你如果都故意的我告訴你所有的農民你不會都站不上去"},{"start":817.443,"end":846.165,"text":"所以部長我們是不是應該全面對於農業保險在做所有的一個調整最重要的是如何讓農民有信心增加符合農民需求的保單設計我想我非常認同委員的想法也是我一直希望說未來的農業保險應該朝向保單的品質的提升這個保單的品質提升就像委員所說的你要符合農民的需求這最重要的"},{"start":846.485,"end":875.568,"text":"是 然後那些風險本身的一個設計我也跟委員報告商業保險的保證的設計都會經過我們農經局這邊一起最後才做定案不會說純粹他講什麼就講什麼沒錯啊 可是他會有要求他自己這個保險的獲利率啊所以他還是一樣會他跟你們這樣子一支黨一支隊啊可是最後回歸到農民的身上其實又有差了啊"},{"start":875.948,"end":900.142,"text":"對我知道所以我想我基本上會遵照委員的意見就是重新全面去檢討現在已經在做了檢討每一張保單為什麼它保單的人數會那麼少它到底哪一些保險的內容或是保費的金額有差異的時候我們逐項來做檢討這個我們現在已經在舉動了那部長什麼時候我那時候應該是講年底之前"},{"start":900.982,"end":904.646,"text":"我那時候是要求他們年底之前那你剛剛跟前衛議會說一個月那是現在的經濟的報告經濟的方向可以一個月但是因為每一張保單要去調整的話可能到年底才能調整完那年底調整完"},{"start":916.637,"end":935.925,"text":"年底調整完喔把每一張保單調整完喔那一樣你也是一個月你說經濟的報告也是可以給我們給我們那個經濟委員會然後呢年底喔我們設定一個年底把所有的每一樣的保單品項而且品項太少的部分也應該要做調整好 謝謝好 謝謝現在請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":550,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時55分）請部長，謝謝召委。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我想請教一下，如何強化青農從農的誘因？說真的，我想有很多的青農因為沒有固定的雇主替他提繳勞工的退休金，所以基本上對於實際從事農業的這些青農，後續的保障如果跟勞保有衝突的時候，他沒有一些後續的選擇，所以這個部分也是他們要轉到農業服務一個很大的關鍵。他會去思考到他的後續，如果他全力都在從事農業，那沒有問題，可是大家都知道，現在要年輕人全力從事農業，以維持他自己的生活、維持他的家庭是有困難的，其實並不是那麼容易。在這個部分，我們是不是有什麼樣的方向可以來協助他，讓他在後續有保障？尤其是農退儲金的部分，有需要去檢討，讓他在達到一定規模的時候，也可以有所選擇？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，從我們實際的調查當中，特別是您所提到的青年跟青壯年，大概有將近一半的人原來是從事勞工的……就是投保勞保，可能在公司，但是過了一段時間以後，從事農業，又不願意放棄勞保的年資，所以他投保勞保，但是現階段他沒有辦法參加農民退休儲金。這個部分我們也特別去考量到，他未來是農業經營的主力之一，所以我們應該可以設計出一個方案，讓他維持勞保年金的領取資格，但同時又可以來參加農業退休儲金保險，這個部分我們現在正在設計。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為這個會讓他們有回到自己家鄉從農的意願，否則他會兩難，也就是他目前投保的是勞保，可是他又面臨如果轉回到農業的時候，在儲金會有要求跟限制。因為在這段時間，其實很多青農也一直有在反映這個區塊，我覺得這個有必要性，如果我們真的認為青農是農業未來的主力，而現在所有的政策方向也是朝這個方向，希望青農回歸自己的家鄉去從農，如果是這樣子的話，我們更應該讓他的後續有保障，所以這個部分再拜託部長能夠在這個區塊多用點心，預計要多久？現在已經持續在討論當中嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在持續有……本來勞保跟農保有所謂的法律的競合問題，這個部分我們的法制單位都已經解釋、可以排除了，所以現在基本上要推這樣的方式是沒問題的。我們會併同其他委員的意見，希望在下個會期能夠一併提上來做一些修正。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們認為既然要檢討，不要好像是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，而是既然要討論儲金的問題，我們就一併討論。因為一併討論的話，雖然這是不一樣的，農退儲金如何增加覆蓋率跟增加青農從農的誘因，這是兩個區塊……"],["陳部長駿季：對，兩件事情。"],["陳委員亭妃：是兩件事，可是既然要討論就一併討論，要不然每次就一下子修這個，下一次又拿出來修那一個，我覺得這樣對整個修法時程也會有所延宕，所以這個部分再麻煩部長。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會來努力。"],["陳委員亭妃：另外，我們常常接到農民或是農會跟我們說，常常人家已經保了十幾年農保，突然跟他說要被退保，因為他是工商負責人、戶籍異動、地籍異動、改課地價稅、勞農重複、人不在國內，還有耕地未達一分地等等，然後可能一、二十年的農保資格就被去除掉了，這對他來說是很傷的，因為他已經保了這麼久的時間。部長，我們到底有什麼機制可以處理這個問題？而不是好像我們想到要清查就清查一次，然後有些是耕地未達一分地的，都在最後已經要申辦了，結果農會把他的資料調出來，發現他賣農地了，賣到切、切、切，切到耕地未達一分地，就沒辦法了，請問這要怎麼辦？這個現在已經變成農會非常頭痛的問題，農民也都不知道到底什麼時候可以確認他的身分，這一、二十年來，他的保險費都一直在繳，繳到最後跟他說：不好意思，你的資格不符合。請問這怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們也注意到這個問題，第一個先跟委員說明，歷來的這些查核，都是審計部要求農業部查的，現在64.4的部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們自己能夠訂一個時間標準嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們有我們的標準，現在就是不希望64.4清查一審查就定生死，我們希望能夠提前用輔導方式，讓這些不符合規定的農民在真正清查的時候，可以補正他的資格……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們已經在設計，而且也跟農會溝通，也許在64.4之前的半年就開始啟動這樣一個溝通，主動去了解以後，如果農民不符合資格，就趕快想辦法補相關的資料來處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，可以做調整的，讓他有機會調整，而不是到最後就一句話：不好意思，你一定要退保！"],["陳部長駿季：對，65歲以上的，我們不會特別去查。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯啊！不特別去查，重點是他要去申辦的時候，這些資料還是會顯露出來啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我才會說很多時候我們可以主動去了解他有什麼問題，而在真正清查的時候，能夠補件的、能夠調整的，就儘快調整。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，這個相關機制、SOP，什麼時候要訂出來？"],["陳部長駿季：這應該就有了。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啊！現在問題還是產生啊！"],["陳司長俊言：委員，我們現在正跟各個農會進行溝通，基本上勞保局的部分，技術上已經沒有問題，所以應該很快就可以推出。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，什麼時候？很快，一個月？我覺得應該趕快把這個SOP公開，就是未來我們可以在哪一個時間點去做這樣的告知，或是資料的核對，然後可以有多少時間來補正，補正的時候，又有多少時間可以去做澄清或更正？我覺得這個部分我們應該把它訂出來，讓農民都知道。"],["陳司長俊言：跟委員報告，這些SOP我們都已經擬好了，現在就是跟農會溝通的部分，應該三個月內就可以把這些處理好。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，三個月，我們就把資訊公開，因為現在已經不比以前，現在從LINE等等都可以得知有什麼更正辦法的資訊，如果發現自己有可能被退保的樣態，可以怎麼補救等等，應該把相關資訊訂出來，訂出來之後，就不會有這些枝枝節節的問題，就好像有人已經繳一、二十年保費，結果權益就不見了，權益就受損了，這個部分再麻煩，三個月。","另外，再請教部長一個問題，現在農保投保率是53.7%，部長可以看這張表，農作物部分，從雜糧類、蔬菜類，甚至果樹類、養蜂產業，投保率都偏低，養蜂產業是0.7%而已；在農業設施部分，才18.2%；甚至在漁業部分，魚類和養殖水產分別才3.2%和1.5%；畜牧業部分，家禽類也才21.4%，為什麼這幾項的投保率都這麼低？有沒有檢討過？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，養蜂產業現在我們正在溝通，因為養蜂產業本身就是類似游牧民族，除非是全國性的，像龍眼樹那時候不開花，造成比較大的面積，他不能遷移，所以造成影響，但是我們一直灌輸一個觀念，就是保險是一個能夠協助他降低損失的機制。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！因為以前蜂農沒有辦法得到災損……"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在我們把他加進去了。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在有了，基本上，他有登載的地方，因為要依照登載的地方，所以我覺得這個部分可以慢慢鼓勵，但今天我要講的是，有這麼多類別沒有辦法增加投保率，問題在哪裡？問題是我們的農業保險品項其實也不廣泛，目前才28種品項、44張保單，其中由商業保險承辦的有21項，農會體系承辦的有7項，而農會體系承辦的，投保率都比較高，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：為什麼？跟農民的信心指數、信心感有關，而且是政策型的……"],["陳部長駿季：是政策型的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，是政策型，所以我們是不是應該有更多的政策型保險讓農會主辦，以增加農民的投保率？另外還有一個原因就是保單設計根本不符合農民需求，這才是最大問題，說真的，現在畜產、漁產或是農作物，每一個樣態、狀況都不一樣，再加上整個氣候變化，所以保單必須量身訂做。還有理賠部分，商業保險公司審查都很嚴格，我相信平常要求保單、收保費時是一個臉，可是理賠時又是另外一個臉，這個部分你們有沒有去了解？因為上述種種原因，所以大家信心不高，可能投保那麼多，結果要用時卻用不到，這才是關鍵。部長，我覺得整個制度真的要檢討，因為農業保險從110年實施到現在，這也是我們民進黨的好政策，農業保險讓它雙軌並行，當有災損時，有政府的災損補助，也有農業保險。","因為天氣變遷，我認為農業部應該把每一年的氣候樣本還有災損紀錄做一個統整紀錄，有延續性的、帶狀性的，如果沒有做帶狀性紀錄，我告訴你，改天要去跟商業保險公司講都講不通，根本就講不通，像水稻這一次我們就有改變他們抽樣、取樣的部分，可是理賠率也不高，但如果我們沒有改變，理賠率可能更低。部長，我覺得這個部分很重要，我們一定要有一個參數來做調整，讓商業保險能夠有所依據，不然如果都是根據他們的，我告訴你，所有農民都拿不到理賠！部長，對於農業保險，我們是不是應該全面再做調整，最重要的是如何讓農民有信心，增加符合農民需求的保單設計？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同委員的想法，我也一直希望未來的農業保險應該朝向保單的品質提升，而保單的品質提升，就像委員所說的，符合農民的需求是最重要的……"],["陳委員亭妃：是。"],["陳部長駿季：然後那些風險本身的設計，我也跟委員報告，商業保險保單的設計都會經過我們農金署這邊一起……最後才定案，不會說純粹他講什麼就講什麼。第三個部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯啊！可是他會要求保險自己的獲利率啊！所以他還是一樣會跟你們這樣「一句長、一句短」啊！可是最後回歸到農民身上其實又有差了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道，所以我想我基本上會遵照委員的意見，重新、全面去檢討，現在已經在做了，會檢討每一張保單為什麼保單的人數會那麼少，到底哪些保險內容或是保費金額有差異的時候，我們會逐項作檢討，這個我們現在已經啟動了。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：我那個時候應該是講年底之前吧，我那個時候是要求他們在年底之前……"],["陳委員亭妃：那你剛剛怎麼跟前一位立委說一個月？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，那是現在的精進報告，有關精進的方向，那個可以一個月。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。"],["陳部長駿季：但是因為每一張保單要去調整的話，可能要到年底才能調整完，大概是這樣。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，年底要調整完，把每一張保單調整完喔！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：一樣你也是一個月，你說精進的報告……"],["陳部長駿季：精進的方向是一個月可以給你們的。"],["陳委員亭妃：要給我們經濟委員會，然後我們設定年底要把所有的、每一樣保單的品項……"],["陳部長駿季：是每一個品項我們都會精準地……"],["陳委員亭妃：而且品項太少的部分也應該要調整。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請李坤城委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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看一下我powerpoint整理出來的數字你看喔 理賠率這三年當中以2021、22、23 理賠率不過是1.94%、6%你總totally的這個保險基金從第一年的267億到第三年的300多億來看"},{"start":182.896,"end":202.961,"text":"理賠率都沒有超過這個10%那以國泰這個產險的這個巴勒的保險來看的話設定的最大的陣風要十幾以上要連續五天那以照目前我算一算以照這個條件來看造成全國現有的巴勒的投保率不到1%"},{"start":206.736,"end":221.129,"text":"我查到一百多元就農民反應過起來是這樣子這是第一個啦你要繳的一兩萬的這個保費來說然後等到那個大颱風大豪雨的時候那時期就大概是中台啦大家就認為不划算還有一個我選區裡頭的大內的部分"},{"start":226.052,"end":243.257,"text":"你搭建一個往事的部分 起碼要花兩百萬即便你有補助 夯不啷噹你至少要出個一百你一分地 賠起來不到一千元賠起來不到一千元 你知道部長 木瓜的投保件數有幾件嗎 你知道嗎"},{"start":244.538,"end":266.454,"text":"六件所以說 你看 八六不到一趴 那木瓜才六件這就是 你已經弄了四年多了喔 原因在哪裡第一個就是好與成為常態 理賠的門檻過高第二個就是理賠的金額太少 保險報酬率太低"},{"start":267.813,"end":292.363,"text":"那我這樣再算一算部長這個保單的真正需要設計的問題是在這邊過往我們只要去我們去要求拜託看起來好像拜託公股的一些慘險公司或私人的慘險公司何嘗你們來拜託人他們都配合政策那你怎麼不要求他來兌換這個社會責任呢你去看喔300多億當中喔"},{"start":293.163,"end":310.357,"text":"五十幾%的覆蓋率 超過三成以上是那個政策型的保險有其他的部分是屬於給私人的保險他們不單是三百多億當中呢一年當中就有超過一百億當中丟入這個產險公司裡頭而非農業系統這種情況底下 你賠率這麼低"},{"start":312.731,"end":335.601,"text":"不然是他們暴利啊我先跟他們報一下您這邊的算法可能有一點出入第一個就是說我們的理賠率應該是保費的收入當分母而不是保險的金額當分母是保費的收入當分母除以分子是理賠金額那大概多少那樣子我們算出來商業型的保險本身在113年它的理賠率是47"},{"start":337.021,"end":362.55,"text":"那如果47啊那一個合理的理賠率應該是在70到80因為他有成本嘛所以他還是偏低沒錯所以我們有現在有在設計就是說當他前一年度的理賠率比較低的時候我們就會降低保費來做處理因應啊大概是這樣子的方式如果是這樣子的話那為什麼那個投保的那個件數會那麼低呢"},{"start":363.31,"end":373.696,"text":"沒有 如果沒有那麼離譜的話你把你相關的理賠率啦 回後給本席一份我覺得重點的部分是要告知那個部長這個保單的設計是關鍵啦不是在保費的補貼"},{"start":378.459,"end":399.151,"text":"不是關鍵啊所以那個整個保單的設計的部分的這個商業型的保險是目前外界最詬病的地方除了農產品之外部長我趁這個機會再提醒你一下就是說呢漁產的部分的保單的這個投保起伏也是過大"},{"start":400.131,"end":419.409,"text":"譬如講這個以私募以來說他之前如果理賠有出現的話 有理賠的話那下一年度的投保率就會增加可是呢 你像牡蠣啦 文革啦像我的選區當中七股這邊都有基本上到目前為止也都還不行"},{"start":421.257,"end":450.029,"text":"還沒有納入捏還在等待保單捏我要跟市長報告您講得非常重要就是保單的內容跟它的品質才是重點對啊然後像牡蠣來講因為它本身這幾年來它發生天然災害的風險變高了以後它的保費設計就是說我可以開辦這個保單但是它那個保費會高得離譜因為它的資料的計算的時間點很短過去我們並沒有這個資料"},{"start":451.289,"end":472.681,"text":"那這幾年的比較長的時間平均值還可以做平均值但之前我們並沒有一些比較明確的數據所以換句話說在現有的數據裡面他去算那個風險的時候他的風險非常高所以他的保費變成非常高那漁民一定沒辦法接受的所以我們我們現在就是說看看有沒有有沒有辦法設計出一些"},{"start":473.735,"end":486.42,"text":"比較改良式的一些一些保單的內容包括就是說你在特定的情況之下去做處理那如果說超過一定的風險的時候政府的吸收會高一點"},{"start":489.461,"end":509.753,"text":"我們以後不能補那些也很奇怪你回去最快也要一顆這個我們一直在檢討另外還有包括那個柚子的部分我再直接講重點好了那個你柚子的部分一般傳統人壽的保單如果項目越多保費會越低可是面積越大保費會越高以照目前為止他的計算的方式要立即落狗"},{"start":510.433,"end":524.781,"text":"但是颱風來所造成的這些東西延遲性的一個損傷大概都沒有納入啦那現階段的類似這種東西你只適用一個粒子如果延遲性損傷沒有保障的話那就是困難啦對啊 但是我給你們報告齁"},{"start":526.002,"end":543.964,"text":"我一直希望說第一個就是如果同一個農民他每年都有投保的時候我希望他保費能夠下降就是有折扣這樣能夠鼓勵第二個就是你投保的面積越大應該你的保費應該也要有折扣這樣的話才會有誘因部長時間到我也不要耽誤後面會員的時間"},{"start":545.626,"end":574.339,"text":"只是要求一件事情四年多了啦 該檢討的啦我特別要求是商業型的這個部分啦或者是你政策型的要多一些品項也OK啦做一個整體的檢討麻煩你一個月的時候給本席一份好 可以對啊 你要如果改進現在這種既有的方式剛才本席所提出的這些問題去年一整年我們就在檢討每一張對 但我要求你啊所以你既然有檢討那你一個月拿出來應該是沒有什麼問題啊我們會提供 好一個月內喔 你把所有資料給我好 謝謝"},{"start":575.28,"end":577.25,"text":"好 謝謝現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時46分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。我想經濟委員會召委很用心排這個題目，我認為非常好，我們確實要去思考現在農業保險這幾年上路之後需要檢討的問題。可是在這同時，相關法案修改最近都紛紛出爐，包括我之前提的農民退休金儲金條例第七條的修正案，還有包括農民保險排富條款的部分，也請部長跟行政院的溝通能夠加速進行，這是第一點提醒。","第二點，今天在野黨所提拉掉中央補助的上限，我覺得有可能會排擠到剛剛我所提的那兩項福利預算的問題，因為預算都綁在一起，這是第一個。第二個，補助的部分剛剛你也說明很清楚，可能到75%，如果到75%的情況，我個人算起來目前農業保險覆蓋率大概53.72%，但是實質上，如果扣除掉強制納保的豬隻、水稻等等，覆蓋率不過是20%。"],["陳部長駿季：20.7%。"],["郭委員國文：才20%左右而已，所以已經補助到75%，覆蓋率還只有20%，也就代表補助不是關鍵，保單的設計才是問題。保單設計的問題就是我們今天要好好來探討的問題。","有關保單的設計：第一個，我看到的結果是，農民領不到，產險公司賺飽飽；第二個，是多項農產品是被遺漏的，沒有納入農業保障的範圍；第三個，現有保單難以滿足產區的需求。如果這樣來說，我們區分以目前政策型的保險或商業型的保險來看，我看起來政策型的保險之所以能夠運行順利，一來是分為收入型、一來分為死亡型，不論是收入型理賠參數容易量化，另外死亡型包括豬隻跟乳牛的，基本上也是容易量化，這些目前是比較OK的。可是我必須提醒部長，問題主要是出現在商業型的保險，這36種都是非強制的保險，真正需要檢討是這個部分，覆蓋率過低的元凶也是在這裡。主要有幾個問題，一來理賠的門檻不一致、過高；二來理賠金額過低。","部長，你看一下數字，除了聽幕僚講之外，也看一下我整理出來的數字。你看這三年理賠率，2021年理賠率不過是1.9%、2022年4%、2023年6%，總共的保險金額，從第一年（2021年）的267億到第三年（2023年）的三百多億來看，理賠率都沒有超過10%。以國泰產險的芭樂保險來看，設定的最大陣風達10級以上，或是連續5天累積降雨量達301mm才啟動理賠。照這個條件來看，造成全臺現有芭樂投保率不到1%，農民跟我反映的狀況是這樣，這是第一個，就是你要繳一、兩萬的保費，然後要等到大颱風、大豪雨的時候，風速10級大概是中颱，所以大家就認為不划算。","還有一個案例，我選區裡的大內，搭建一個網室起碼要花200萬，即便有補助，夯不啷噹算起來至少要出個100萬，但換算起來1分地理賠不到1,000元。部長，你知道木瓜的投保件數有幾件嗎？就只有6件。芭樂投保率不到1%、木瓜也才只有6件，政策已經弄了四年多了，原因在哪裡？第一個就是豪雨成為常態，理賠的門檻過高；第二個，理賠的金額太少，保險報酬率太低。部長，保單需要設計的問題在這邊。","過往我們只要去要求、拜託……看起來好像拜託公股的一些產險公司或私人的產險公司，他們就說都配合政策，那你怎麼不要求他善盡社會責任呢？你去看，保險金額三百多億當中，50%覆蓋率超過三成以上是政策型的保險，其他的才是屬於私人的保險，一年三百多億當中就有超過100億丟入產險公司裡頭，而非農業系統，這種情況底下，理賠率這麼低，就變成他們的暴利啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，您的算法可能有一點出入。第一個，理賠率應該是保費的收入當分母，而不是保險的金額當分母，分子是理賠金額。"],["郭委員國文：那大概多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們算出來，113年商業型保險的理賠率是47%，合理的保險理賠率應該是在70%到80%，因為還是有成本，所以它還是偏低，沒有錯。我們現在有在設計，當它前一年度理賠率比較低的時候，我們就會降低保費來處理、因應，大概是這樣的方式。"],["郭委員國文：如果是這樣的話，為什麼投保的件數會那麼低呢？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，投保件數……"],["郭委員國文：如果沒有那麼離譜，你把相關的理賠率會後給本席一份資料。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["郭委員國文：我現在重點是要告知部長，保單的設計才是關鍵，保費的補貼不是關鍵，商業型保險的保單設計是目前外界最詬病的地方。","除了農產品之外，部長，我趁這個機會再提醒你一下，漁產的投保起伏也是過大。譬如以虱目魚來說，如果前一年有理賠，下一年度的投保率就會增加，可是像牡蠣、文蛤，在我的選區七股都有這些漁產，到目前為止也都沒有納入投保範圍，漁民都還在等待保單。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您講到非常重要的一點，保單的內容跟品質才是重點，像牡蠣來講，因為這幾年來發生天然災害的風險變高了以後，它的保費設計就變成可以開辦這個保單，但是保費會高得離譜，因為資料計算的時間點很短，過去我們並沒有這個資料，這幾年才有這個資料……"],["郭委員國文：你要拉比較長的時間來做平均值才對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但之前我們並沒有一些比較明確的數據，換句話說，以現有的數據算風險的時候，它的風險非常高，所以保費變成非常高，漁民一定沒辦法接受。我們現在看看有沒有辦法設計出比較改良式保單的內容，包括在特定的情況之下處理，如果超過一定風險的時候，政府的吸收會高一點。"],["郭委員國文：沒有啦！一個池子裡虱目魚可以保，文蛤卻不能保，也很奇怪，你回去想一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，這個我們一直在檢討。"],["郭委員國文：另外，我直接講重點，一般傳統人壽的保單，如果項目越多，保費會越低；可是柚子的部分面積越大，保費卻越高。目前為止，它的理賠計算方式只計算立即落果，但颱風來所造成的都是延遲性的損傷，都沒有納入計算，現階段只適用於立即落果，延遲性的損傷沒有保障，那理賠就困難了，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我一直希望，第一個、如果同一個農民每年都有投保，保費能夠下降，就是有折扣，這樣能夠鼓勵投保。第二個就是投保的面積越大，保費應該也要有折扣，這樣的話才會有誘因。"],["郭委員國文：部長，時間到了，我也不要耽誤後面委員的時間，我只要求一件事情，四年多了，該檢討了啦！我特別要求商業型這個部分啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們其實已經在檢討了……"],["郭委員國文：或者是政策型的要多一些品項也OK，你整體檢討，麻煩一個月之後給本席一份資料，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好，可以。"],["郭委員國文：你要如何改進現在這種既有的方式，針對剛剛本席所提出的這些問題……"],["陳部長駿季：去年一整年我們就在檢討每一張保單……"],["郭委員國文：對，但是我要要求你，既然你最近有檢討，一個月拿出來應該是沒有什麼問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員，我們一定會提供。"],["郭委員國文：好，一個月內，你把所有的資料給我。"],["陳部長駿季：可以，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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10:42:35","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T10:32:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T10:42:35+08:00","duration":596,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.27096875,"end":5.2115937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.556593750000001,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.372218750000002,"end":30.422843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.422843750000002,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.650343750000005,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.94034375000001,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.70721875000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.18534375,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.05409375,"end":123.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.94409375000001,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.97784375,"end":124.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.73721875000001,"end":125.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.75409375000001,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.00221875,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.03596875,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.17096875000001,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.96409375000002,"end":143.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.41471875000002,"end":136.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.80284375000002,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.18596875,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.96221875,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.37971875,"end":168.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.25346875000002,"end":180.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.82971875,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.55221875,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.39596875,"end":218.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.38659375,"end":208.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.95034375,"end":235.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.12909375,"end":236.70284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.71534375000002,"end":245.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.05159375000002,"end":251.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.71721875000003,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.01096875,"end":264.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.24284375,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.54846875000004,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.81846875,"end":299.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.80721875,"end":303.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.13971875000004,"end":305.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.25346875,"end":307.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.52721875000003,"end":307.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.57784375,"end":307.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.76346875,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.07971875000004,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.16784375000003,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.21846875,"end":312.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.82534375,"end":316.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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那我想我們台灣自己對於這個電動車的一個部分我想我們也應該要支持這樣一個國產的一個目標但是到目前為止國發會奠定的目標2030年要達到電動機車35%的新車佔比這個"},{"start":237.799,"end":251.058,"text":"市長我們這部分我們有信心嗎距離這樣的時間點雖然我們的民眾很支持但是看起來銷售的狀況不是很理想這部分我們要怎麼樣教他們怎麼樣來強化這樣的一個市佔率的一個提升"},{"start":252.762,"end":278.097,"text":"跟副委員報告一下整個這個運氣電動化戰略區的部分是由交通部來做組織來做組織啦但是相關這個合作的部分包括經濟部包括環境部包括是對對那有關於這個電動機車的部分確實跟陳副委員所提到的部分在這個去年跟今年目標因為受到這個燃油車這個薛價競爭的一個這個部分那還有一些這個電池交換使用的一個課題確實這個目標"},{"start":280.458,"end":306.917,"text":"都還必須要這個努力那這個部分的話我們已經跟廠方署廠方署這邊相關的補助規定還有相關的一個這個就是說譬如說這個工業區要興建那有一些相關有在地區加碼做補助的部分我們都有跟廠方署這邊持續來檢討對啦尤其是我們偏鄉你就沒有那個交換站可以往電梯上面他們都要去有這個廠方署這邊有呼籲要自己來做一個盤點跟規劃嘛是是是"},{"start":309.09,"end":332.903,"text":"未來跟經濟部來共同合作對我想我們這個我們也是要往前再推進啦這個畢竟這個是盡力環保的一個很重要的一個是是是是好那市長我想今天審查這個吊膠倒膠條例本席也提出一個議題那因為我們近期高雄市有一位行人過馬路的時候並沒有禮讓執勤中的一個救護車甚至還對這個"},{"start":334.724,"end":356.682,"text":"駕駛比中止所以我想這部分我們認為這樣子是很不好的一個行為那但是交通部的回應是根據我們的道交條例第78條可以罰500塊但是我認為這樣罰得太低啦應該是我們要來強制是不是比照這個汽車駕駛如果阻擋的話處罰3600的部分交通部能不能認同這樣的一個提案"},{"start":358.115,"end":382.325,"text":"我想跟委員報告來確保這個救護車在執行他任務的時候的一個行車的一個順暢我想這個是應該是不管是交通部也好或國人高度的一個共識但是有關這個罰還額度是不是過低應該要提高這部分呢其實我們交通部是尊重整個這個立法院大家審議的一個結果好我想我們還是要確保我們這樣的一個安全的一個環境是是是"},{"start":382.645,"end":397.878,"text":"那剛剛本市有提了一個臨時提案就是針對我們當然針對最近的這個高齡駕駛的一些問題產生但是我們還是要幫我們整個的中國市場講一句話啦他們不是喜歡開車不是喜歡騎車是因為我們的大眾交通運輸"},{"start":399.079,"end":411.932,"text":"這沒方便 小黃公車也沒方便所以逼著他們自己一定要自己開車 騎車上路這不是不能歸咎於他們所以我們才會要求說在這樣子的一個狀況之下應該全面來盤點我們所有的一個運輸的一個機制"},{"start":415.396,"end":433.086,"text":"因為有方便的車公車很多有小玩公車很多大家有什麼要自己做的事情很危險我們都知道問題是他們是無奈的啊他們要處理賣菜看醫生就是必須要靠自己吧所以我們這部分我們要求交通部要趕快來做盤點那甚至我們最近聽到的我們的客運業者"},{"start":435.247,"end":460.485,"text":"有一條1613路線台北到屏東也申請停駛我想這些對於這個整個屏東的交通平權我想我們都希望能夠逐步來提升但是目前高鐵南沿屏東要2039年才完成那我們的巴士的部分能不能再增加一個這樣的一個運輸的量能不然我們就剩1吋鐵路而已這樣對我們很不公平部長這部分是不是可以來做協調"},{"start":463.243,"end":489.509,"text":"有關這個是不是停駛的申請我想那個公路局大概應該有跟業者做相關的協討那部裡頭的基本的立場就是民眾的基本民行的這部分是要確保的那是不是有其他的替代的方案或者是行使其他的路線來取代代替等等的我想這個公路局後續他們會去來做處理除了這個之外長途之外甚至我們過去因為"},{"start":490.449,"end":519.007,"text":"這客運業因為也因為虧損的問題所以包含我們有時候恆春半島一些偏鄉這區間的一些他也沒要開啊是這實在對我們是很不公平的是這部分我們請公路總局公路局去了解一下然後看怎麼樣來這個是一個責任不是一個對用那個用利益來來交換的一個條件嘛所以我剛才講說基本民行的確保這是交通部的既定的一個政策跟方向我們會請公路局本這樣的一個原則來做相關的規劃"},{"start":519.847,"end":539.073,"text":"好所以我想像我們5月5號我們交通委員會有到屏東考察那當時是您帶隊我們這個屏東縣的單車國道的這一段路面受損非常的嚴重那我想這次當中也有承諾這個部分我們優先處理那經過一個月了這個案好像還沒有核定"},{"start":540.114,"end":562.587,"text":"這部分呢 我想車公路局相關的程序正在處理處理完 進速報到部裡頭 我們會進速來核定這個我想這個行人的交通安全我們很重視這個單車騎士的安全 你們也要重視要不然你騎一騎跌倒要申請國賠 你也會去啦是是是 要儘處理啦我們會加速相關核定的一個程序什麼時候可以完成 給我們一個答案好不好"},{"start":567.327,"end":593.245,"text":"跟委員報告就是四月份的時候大概就是縣府修完然後我們南分局大概也有報局了我們會這個加速來審查然後盡速在一個月內我們會報報布這樣子好 一個月啊我們報布啦我們把我們的審查的結果報布可不可以拖這麼久嗎 次郎委員我們盡快來核定啦 是我想這個 加速來處理加速來努力啦 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時32分）謝謝主席。有請陳次長。"],["主席：陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：次長早。次長，針對最近大陸電動車製造廠比亞迪準備積極拓展海外市場，甚至瞄準臺灣要進軍，用低價策略促銷，不曉得交通部有沒有接到相關的訊息？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們是不是請林司長來說明？"],["林司長福山：報告委員，這個課題報載也有提到，據我所了解的部分，大概就是大陸廠牌比亞迪可能在泰國設廠，國內代理商也有代理的意願。這個東西涉及到現行規定是大陸整車不得進口，這部分包括經濟部都很密切關注這個課題，在行政部門內部之間也有跨部會會議在研商相關事宜，交通部已經知道。"],["徐委員富癸：這一點我想我們還是要特別再提醒交通部，現在我們掌握到的訊息是他們透過泰國製造的部分達到洗產地的效果。我想過去中國很多產品都是透過東南亞這樣的模式來運作，把東西就這樣傾銷到臺灣來，對我們的產業會造成非常大的衝擊面，我想我們交通部有一個車輛型式安全審驗管理辦法，相關規範我想交通部應該要更嚴格處理。次長，這部分有沒有辦法達成？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員說明，整個車輛的進口其實是有好幾個環節，原則上所有行政機關大家會共同努力，當然我們是有車輛型式安全審驗管理辦法，交通部也會配合相關單位，大家共同防範這樣一個洗產地的事情發生。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，我想我們還是要積極跟經濟部這幾個部會跨部會整合。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們一定會跟經濟部合作。"],["徐委員富癸：必要的時候應該要提出相關反制措施，我們要予以反擊，不可以讓他們這樣……"],["陳次長彥伯：就我了解，整個行政院有在處理。"],["徐委員富癸：要不然我想這也是一個很嚴重的國安問題。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["徐委員富癸：針對這個部分是不是麻煩交通部在一個月之內提出一個書面報告給我們辦公室，就是如何防範的部分，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：另外一個很嚴重的問題，除了比亞迪之外，中華汽車一直也受到洗產地的影響，尤其像英國汽車品牌MG也遭到中國大陸的收購，裕隆他們也透過這樣的模式在臺灣做行銷的策略，不曉得交通部對這個部分有沒有掌握相關的訊息？"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員報告，有關於中華汽車生產在臺灣組裝MG的部分，交通部應該在去年開始就跟經濟部充分合作。有關於在臺組裝的在地化比例，產發署有一個規定，交通部在後端受理他們來申請審驗的時候，我們逐一都會確認，而且必須要確認產發署同意的文件，這個部分的話……"],["徐委員富癸：目前有問題嗎？"],["林司長福山：目前我知道有車型符合經濟部管制的規定，原則上我們後端審驗的部分，一定要經過經濟部同意之後，才能夠到我們這邊來申請審驗。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我們臺灣自己對於電動車的部分，我想我們也應該要支持國產的目標，但是到目前為止，國發會訂定的目標，2030年要達到電動機車35%的新車占比，次長，對於這部分我們有信心嗎？距離這樣的時間點，雖然我們的民眾很支持，但是看起來銷售狀況不是很理想，這部分交通部要怎麼樣強化市占率的提升？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，整個運具電動化戰略區是由交通部主責，但是相關合作的部分包括經濟部、包括環境部、包括行政院……有關於電動機車的部分確實誠如委員所提，去年跟今年的目標因為受到燃油車削價競爭，還有一些電池交換使用的課題，確實這個目標還必須要努力。但關於這部分，我們已經跟產發署針對相關補助規定，以及工業區的興建、在地區加碼補助的部分，我們都有跟產發署持續檢討……"],["徐委員富癸：尤其我們偏鄉就是沒有交換站可以換電池，民眾是要怎麼做？"],["林司長福山：有，產發署這邊有……"],["徐委員富癸：是不是應該積極盤點跟規劃？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們會跟經濟部共同合作。"],["徐委員富癸：對，我想這個我們應該是要往前推進，畢竟這也是淨零環保一個很重要的議題。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，今天審查道交條例，本席有提出一個議題，因為近期高雄市有一位行人過馬路的時候並沒有禮讓執勤中的救護車，甚至還對駕駛比中指，我們認為這樣是很不好的一個行為，交通部的回應是根據道交條例第七十八條可以罰500塊，但是我認為這樣罰則太低，應該是我們要強制，是不是比照汽車駕駛，如果阻擋的話處罰3,600？交通部能不能認同這樣一個提案？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，我想確保救護車在執行任務時候的行車順暢，不管是交通部也好，或是國人，應該是一個高度的共識。但是有關罰鍰額度是不是過低，應該要提高這部分，其實我們交通部是尊重整個立法院審議的結果。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我想我們還是要確保我們安全的環境。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["徐委員富癸：剛剛本席有提一個臨時提案，就是針對最近高齡駕駛一些問題的產生，但我們還是要幫我們鄉下的長輩們說一句話，他們不是喜歡開車、不是喜歡騎車，是因為我們的大眾交通運輸不方便，小黃、公車也不方便，所以逼得他們一定要自己開車、騎車上路，這並不能歸咎於他們，所以我們才會要求在這樣子的狀況之下，應該全面盤點我們所有的運輸機制。他們如果有方便的公車可以坐，有小黃、公車可以坐，自己為什麼要做這種事情？很危險，我們也都知道，問題是他們是無奈的啊！他們要出去買菜、看醫生，就是必須要靠自己，所以這部分我們也要求交通部趕快盤點。","甚至我們最近聽到客運業者有一條1613路線──臺北到屏東，也申請停駛，我想對於整個屏東的交通平權，我們都希望能夠逐步提升，但是目前高鐵南延屏東要2039年才完成，巴士的部分能不能再增加運輸的量能？不然就剩鐵路而已，這樣對我們很不公平。部長，這部分是不是可以來協調？"],["陳次長彥伯：有關是不是停駛的申請，公路局應該有跟業者做相關的協調，部裡基本的立場是民眾基本民行部分要確保，是不是有其他的替代方案？或者是行駛其他的路線來取代等等？公路局後續會來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：除了長途之外，甚至過去因為客運業虧損的問題，所以有時候包含恆春半島一些偏鄉區間的運輸部分，他們也不開了，這實在對我們很不公平。"],["陳次長彥伯：這部分會請公路局再去瞭解，然後看怎麼樣來……"],["徐委員富癸：這個是一個責任，不是用利益來交換的一個條件。"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我剛才說基本民行的確保是交通部既定的政策跟方向，我們會請公路局本這樣的原則來做相關的規劃。"],["徐委員富癸：好。次長，交通委員會5月5日有到屏東考察，當時是您帶隊。有關屏東縣的單車國道這一段路面受損非常嚴重，政次當場也有承諾優先處理，已經過了1個月，這個案子好像還沒有核定。"],["陳次長彥伯：這部分公路局依相關的程序正在處理，處理完竣報部後我們會儘速來核定。"],["徐委員富癸：行人的交通安全、單車騎士的安全，我們都很重視，不然騎車跌倒而申請國賠，也是會造成你們的麻煩，要趕快處理。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會加速相關核定的程序。"],["徐委員富癸：什麼時候可以完成？給我們一個答案，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，大概在4月分的時候縣府修完，然後我們的分局也報局了，我們會加速來審查，儘速在1個月內報部。"],["徐委員富癸：好，1個月？"],["陳局長文瑞：把我們審查的結果報部。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，要拖這麼久嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，我們儘快來核定，加速來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這個要加速來努力，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐富癸委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時42分）","繼續開會（10時54分）"],["主席：各位請就座。","現在請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9d132c6f348e665f5b4fab53e924c0ec17ecf2f83f27aab3b06b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:28:46 - 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start":209.595,"end":230.493,"text":"這樣一包裡面這一小顆你們可能有千千萬萬顆在裡面就好像我皮革力可能大家比較好理解就是我們的這個常常為一般國人所苦的像香港腳他腳但是這個真菌這樣的菌類附著在腳上了所以就有香港香港腳這個東西概念是一樣的好所以這樣的菌"},{"start":231.394,"end":259.973,"text":"附上到我的農業的這個品種上的時候種下去當中該真菌會被認定為可能為農業恐怖攻擊的潛力武器而這個東西呢他們追溯是在三年前就展開他今年起訴這樣的中國科學家但是發現到他們在三年前就展開這樣的規模的規劃跟進行為什麼他要做這件事情呢因為這個核包聯包菌核穀聯包菌多麼厲害會造成小麥大麥玉米"},{"start":261.374,"end":286.123,"text":"稻米的刺霉病这个小麦大麦玉米在美国他们是饲料在是作为饲料用台湾的稻米我们是人在吃的所以这样的菌丝在美国如果未来在台湾发生的时候会导致牲口人类的呕吐吃下去之后种出来然后有了这些霉菌之后然后就会"},{"start":287.223,"end":307.98,"text":"有这种牲口人类呕吐肝损伤甚至缺陷及刺癌所以为什么美国的针对这样的边境防疫这么的谨慎因应好那这个农业自动化下这样的农业的灰色威胁可能也就自动化怎么说呢我就以这个为例河谷联包菌"},{"start":308.6,"end":332.832,"text":"的擴散樣態它可以透過自然界擴散它可以透過人為的自動化載具的擴散如果在自然界這樣的河谷蓮苞菌它附著在玉米跟水稻的一個種子上生長而導致這樣的植物發病之後在它的子蘭苞只成熟噴出之後藉著自然的氣流風雨的傳播整片的田野"},{"start":333.852,"end":349.87,"text":"就這樣一顆我一粒米我一粒玉米或一粒水稻它裡面有這樣的菌絲菌種這樣存在之後這樣它的噴出來成熟噴出來之後藉著自然的風雨傳播跟"},{"start":351.031,"end":355.416,"text":"氣流整片田野就染病了那也透過人為的這樣的自動載具這樣的河谷連包具呢就是只要融入這個液態的肥料透過各種自動化的設備如果像無人機右上角所示的圖片它噴灑在農田它不需要附著在物種"},{"start":370.031,"end":374.575,"text":"他只要噴灑在這個肥料裡面 液態肥料裡面這樣一灑 哇 這樣全田也都腫這個都懶病了所以這樣的農業的灰色威脅令作物大幅減產和失去使用價值嚴重威脅到我們的糧食自主和食品安全好 我們來看本席在議的這樣的糧食自主率"},{"start":394.831,"end":421.964,"text":"這樣的糧食自主率當中這個呢國內因應旱災的政策優先順序一定先停工農業灌溉用水那所以呢農業部去年公布的112年的糧食供需年報當中很呈現了剛好112年是百年旱災台灣的糧食自主率持續下降所以一直到2023年我們還跌到18年新低喔這個前年在水稻方面112年加難"},{"start":424.385,"end":429.168,"text":"平原的停灌導致水稻的減產減產了10.7萬公噸使我們的穀類糧食自足率從111年的26.6%下降到25.5%好我就以美國個案"},{"start":440.834,"end":454.885,"text":"如果我國若招式類似的農業灰色攻擊將會使原有的穀類特別是稻米的糧食自主力出現更大的衝擊將嚴重影響到國內糧食穩定好我在這邊建請農業部你們做要做精進了現有的防檢跟防疫要做精進我絕對肯定這個防檢署的這個同仁的努力或者我們不會是亞洲在這個"},{"start":470.736,"end":496.296,"text":"这个非疫区的这样的猪瘟能够拔疫而且是亚洲第一的非疫区但是是不是要面临针对粮食危机所因应的这个我们边境的这个防检跟防疫我们是不是应该要更精进呢那所以呢对于防检的部分你们就了解一下国际先进国家对于农业边防的管制跟检验的方案类似"},{"start":497.357,"end":509.624,"text":"尤其類似這樣的真菌株的查驗困難因為本席非常的好奇我都想瞭解你看這第五頁右上角這個菌是他們美國怎麼查獲你說株質這麼大體我還可以去看這樣的這樣的一個河谷聯胞菌在右邊這樣子他怎麼查獲我個人都很好奇"},{"start":520.49,"end":521.753,"text":"我們本部當中的這個防檢的同仁你們怎麼來防檢呢這個我都很好奇所以這個第一個"},{"start":530.595,"end":533.197,"text":"你們就要經濟你們的參考一下先進國家怎麼做這是第二個呢這個經濟農業防疫的機制預防威脅還是剩餘事後的處理農業部應該積極主動掌握國內主要的經濟物種不管是榮 餘 序產等他可能遭遇的毀滅性影響的病原資訊"},{"start":553.388,"end":559.373,"text":"為什麼我講這句話呢因為這個您也是學者出身啊所以呢我絕對相信我們的農業專家國內的農業學者或專家他絕對知道我的主要經濟作物他可能會有哪些毀滅性影響的病原資訊那我們農業部通常都怎麼做就是他做他的學術我做我的行政作為然後我遇到困難的時候再邀請他們來那我們一起來想辦法"},{"start":580.689,"end":584.053,"text":"但是為什麼不事先 你對於國內主要的經濟物種不管是榮 魚 畜牧 你事先掌握了這樣子的邊防你看美國他是怎麼的因應他們也追能夠這麼小的東西是農產品的對於他們這個美國農業當中的影響他能夠在邊防就阻絕了這樣的一個真菌"},{"start":603.613,"end":607.695,"text":"好那在國內我也請你們一定要針對可能遭受的農業灰色恐攻所形成的傷害作物的染疫減產跟這個疾病的傳播應先預先建立起這樣的對應機制好針對這樣的精進作為的"},{"start":621.923,"end":650.55,"text":"這樣的一個建議來提高不要說提高啦能夠穩定我們國內的糧食自主的一個這樣的一個這樣的一個目標您怎麼看本席的這樣的這個提案呢我想非常謝謝委員的一些建議我分兩點第一個部分就是那個河谷連刀郡正式的全名是連刀郡不是聯包郡連刀郡本身在台灣"},{"start":651.13,"end":674.72,"text":"已經有這樣的一個病原菌發生的這些危害然後它現在目前並不是法定的該防檢疫的部分但是委員提到一個非常重要的是一般我們在蜘蛛如果染這個病的話我們看到會把它銷毀但是它可能是一個單株而已可是當它是拿整個試管或整個的一個濃縮的這些病原進來的時候"},{"start":676.101,"end":700.842,"text":"就真的很有可能被不法之徒用去當作一些可能的灰色攻擊您說的灰色攻擊這個我們必須要防所以在田間的部分我們現在針對河谷鐮刀菌有一套很好的防治的技術然後也有一些抗病的品種在出現那這個部分我們會持續不只是這個菌其他的部分我們現在已經我只是舉這個案例"},{"start":701.982,"end":718.655,"text":"不管是榕 榆 樹你現在講的是你的防疫那如果防檢的部分呢對 防檢的部分也是一樣我們一定要把所有的病人阻擋在所謂的境外啦好 那你們就精進檢討一下好不好對 我們這個會來處理好 謝謝 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":490,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（10時29分）有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["林委員岱樺：針對糧食自主率持續下降這個議題，我們檢討它的原因，其中有一項特別要跟部長討論，就是地緣政治風險下農業邊防檢疫應與時俱進，農業應慎防灰色威脅所造成的傷害。臺灣成為亞洲唯一三大病株的非疫區，這是非常不容易的成果，但是我們的威脅是存在的，包括非洲豬瘟的飄死豬還是層出不窮的出現在我們的海防，還有農業的灰色危機。我也舉了一個美國的案例，甚至在農業自動化推波助瀾之下，灰色威脅可能也自動化，對於現在糧食自主率下降比較艱困的情形，我們應該怎麼樣因應？世界動物衛生組織年會在法國舉行，我們臺灣在會中取得了傳統豬瘟非疫國的認證，成為亞洲唯一擁有非洲豬瘟以及傳統豬瘟、口蹄疫三大豬隻病症非疫區的地位，農業部防檢署的同仁功不可沒。但這個威脅卻並未消失，我們要如何謹慎因應？總統也提到了幾個方向，持續強化邊境防檢以及提升競爭力。我們就來檢討現在的防檢現況跟未來，在非洲豬瘟的部分，自中國發生非洲豬瘟，一直到去年6月26號，金門都還出現非洲豬瘟的病死豬，而回溯到4年前，110年4月，也出現了非洲豬瘟的病死豬飄流到新北，不是我們傳統認為的，從中國來的會在金門、馬祖，竟然4年前是飄到新北。","我們來看美國是怎麼不分農、漁、林積極因應邊境防疫，他們在前幾天，6月3號美國司法部起訴了兩名科學家，起訴他們走私帶入美國的真菌為禾穀鐮孢菌，這個禾穀鐮孢菌就是在簡報右邊報導當中的4個塑膠袋，每一個塑膠袋就是一個菌株，菌株當中內含了多少的菌絲跟菌種在裡面？可能是千萬，一包裡面的一小顆可能有千千萬萬，我用一個例子比喻，可能大家會比較好理解，像是常常為一般國人所苦的香港腳，這樣的真菌、菌類附著在腳上，所以就有香港腳這個東西。概念是一樣的，這樣的菌附在農業品種上的時候，種下去之後，該真菌會被認定可為農業恐怖攻擊的潛力武器，而他們追溯這個東西在3年前就展開。美國今年起訴了中國科學家，發現他們在3年前就展開這樣的規劃跟進行，為什麼他們要做這件事情呢？因為這個禾穀鐮孢菌多麼厲害：會造成小麥、大麥、玉米、稻米的赤黴病，小麥、大麥、玉米在美國作為飼料用，臺灣的稻米是人在吃的，這樣的菌絲是在美國，如果未來在臺灣發生，吃下去導致牲口、人類嘔吐，種出來之後會有這些黴菌，然後就會導致牲口，人類嘔吐、肝損傷、生殖缺陷及致癌，所以美國針對邊境防疫會這麼謹慎因應。","在農業自動化下，農業的灰色威脅可能也就自動化，怎麼說呢？我就以這個為例，以禾穀鐮孢菌的擴散樣態，它可以透過自然界擴散，它可以透過人為的自動化載具擴散，如果在自然界，禾穀鐮孢菌附著在玉米跟水稻的種子上生長而導致植物發病，在它的子囊孢子成熟噴出之後，藉著自然的氣流、風雨傳播，整片田野就受到染病。1粒米、1粒玉米或1粒水稻，裡面有這樣的菌絲、菌種存在，成熟噴出來之後，藉著自然的風雨傳播跟氣流，整片田野就染病了。透過人為的農業自動化載具，禾穀鐮孢菌只要融入液態肥料，透過各種自動化的設備，像簡報右上角圖片所示的無人機，它噴灑在農田，不需要附著在物種，只要溶入在液態肥料裡面一灑，哇！全部農田都染病了！這樣的農業灰色威脅將令作物大幅減產和失去食用價值，嚴重威脅到糧食自主和食品安全。","我們來看本席在意的糧食自主率，在糧食自主率當中，國內因應旱災的政策優先順序，一定先停供農業灌溉用水。農業部去年公布112年的糧食供需年報當中呈現，剛好112年是百年旱災，臺灣的糧食自主率持續下降，一直到2023年還跌到18年來的新低。水稻方面，112年嘉南平原的停灌導致水稻減產10.7萬公噸，使穀類糧食自主率從111年的26.6%下降到25.5%。我就以美國個案為例，我國若遭遇類似的農業灰色攻擊，將會使原有的穀類，特別是稻米的糧食自主率出現更大的衝擊，將嚴重影響到國內糧食穩定。","我在這邊建請農業部要精進，針對現有的防檢跟防疫精進，我絕對肯定防檢署同仁的努力，否則我們不會是亞洲豬病非疫區、豬瘟能夠拔針，而且是亞洲第一個非疫區，但針對因應糧食危機，我們邊境的防檢跟防疫是不是應該要更精進呢？對於防檢的部分，你們應該了解一下國際先進國家對於農業的邊防管制跟檢驗方案，尤其是類似真菌株查驗困難的問題。因為本席非常的好奇，我想了解，你看簡報第五頁右上角的這個菌，他們美國是怎麼查獲的？你說豬隻這麼大，我還可以去看，但這樣的禾穀鐮孢菌要怎麼查獲？我個人都很好奇，農業部當中的防檢同仁們該怎麼做？你們怎麼防檢呢？這個我都很好奇，所以這是第一個，你們要精進，參考一下先進國家怎麼做。","第二個，精進農業防疫的機制，預防威脅還是勝於事後的處理，農業部應該積極主動掌握國內主要的經濟物種，不管是農、漁、畜產等，其可能遭遇毀滅性影響的病原資訊，為什麼我講這句話呢？因為您也是學者出身，所以我絕對相信國內的農業學者或專家，他們絕對知道我們的主要經濟作物可能會有哪些毀滅性影響的病原資訊，農業部通常都怎麼做？就是他做他的學術，你做你的行政作為，然後遇到困難的時候再邀集他們一起來想辦法，為什麼不事先對於國內主要的經濟物種，不管是農、漁、畜牧，掌握相關的邊防？你看美國是怎麼因應，對於這麼小的東西，可能對美國農產品及農業影響，他們在邊防就能夠阻絕這樣的真菌。在國內，我也請你們一定要針對可能遭受農業灰色恐攻所形成的傷害，包含作物染疫、減產、疾病傳播，應預先建立起對應機制。本席針對這樣的精進作為提出建議，希望能夠穩定國內糧食自主的目標，您怎麼看本席這樣的提案呢？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的建議，我分兩點來說明，第一個部分，那個是禾穀鐮刀菌，正式的學名是鐮刀菌，不是鐮孢菌，在臺灣已經有鐮刀菌這樣的病原菌並發生危害。它目前並不是法定該防檢疫的部分，但是委員提到一個非常重要的是，一般植株如果染這個病，我們看到則會把它銷毀，但可能只是單株而已，可是當他拿整個試管或濃縮病原進來，就真的很有可能被不法之徒當作一些……如您說的灰色攻擊，這個我們必須要防，所以在田間我們現在針對禾穀鐮刀菌有一套很好的防治技術，也有一些抗病的品種出現。這個部分我們會持續，不只是這個菌，對於其他部分，我們現在已經……"],["林委員岱樺：沒錯，我只是舉這個案例。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，所有的……"],["林委員岱樺：不管是農、漁、畜，你現在講的是你的防疫，那防檢的部分呢？"],["陳部長駿季：防檢的部分也是一樣，我們一定要把所有的病原阻擋在境外。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那你們就精進檢討一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時40分）","繼續開會（10時45分）"],["主席：開始開會。","請郭國文委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","郭國文","陳亭妃","李坤城","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","陳超明","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","李彥秀","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","呂玉玲","林思銘","羅明才","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員邱\n若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145901_00002"}}},{"id":"162429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162429","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c906d3d663e6ad30c88c2a0f21558b58c37ecf2f83f27aab3bbfc666046cd716335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:19:32 - 10:30:43","影片長度":"00:11:11","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T10:19:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T10:30:43+08:00","duration":671,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.25409375,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.17346875,"end":7.287218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.822218750000001,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.615343750000001,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.762843750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.58721875,"end":37.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.11784375,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.52659375,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.99471875,"end":120.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.34096875,"end":173.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.67471875,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.25909375,"end":211.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.98096875000002,"end":233.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.39534375000002,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.24471875,"end":256.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.91909375,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.72409375,"end":269.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.69346875,"end":299.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.98409375,"end":308.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.47221875,"end":314.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.91409375,"end":359.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.62034375,"end":385.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.03534375000004,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.84409375,"end":397.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.63971875000004,"end":410.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.03846875000005,"end":412.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.65846875000005,"end":415.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.39221875000004,"end":416.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.14721875000004,"end":421.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.09159375,"end":426.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.86721875,"end":430.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.10284375000003,"end":489.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.52409375,"end":510.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.68534375,"end":520.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.89471875,"end":558.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.57659375,"end":619.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.25971875,"end":589.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.87909375,"end":596.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.17034375,"end":642.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.6984687500001,"end":664.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.2478437500001,"end":666.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.42471875,"end":668.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.2934687500001,"end":669.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.63096875,"end":669.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.4240937500001,"end":670.81221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.549,"end":5.66,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳次長好 來陳次長"},{"start":13.007,"end":36.072,"text":"市長早安 今天委員會就是針對道路交通管理處罰條例的修正草案進行詢問目前因為最近發生很多的交通事故主要就是高齡駕駛還有無照駕駛造成的交通事故所以也引起國人很高的關注"},{"start":36.892,"end":62.68,"text":"所以導致有很多委員對這相關的法令的一個關心那今天本席想針對無照駕駛這個部分跟次長就是來請教因為我們知道根據統計就是目前每年約40萬件的交通事故當中就有5萬件是無照駕駛的案件那平均每年造成600多人的死亡就是6萬多人受傷"},{"start":63.4,"end":78.004,"text":"是酒駕量乘這個車禍事故量乘死傷的6倍那我們根據警政署的一個統計就是無照駕駛裁罰的統計在112年裁罰的案件有316981件那去年113年裁罰是281107件那剛剛我們有聽到昆澤委員也針對這個議題在關心就是說這個部分也分成就是說"},{"start":91.987,"end":120.542,"text":"有領駕照跟未領駕照的一個部分個別的一個數字就是未領駕照有17萬多那吊銷吊扣的有10萬多那還有包括就是吊銷吊扣之後無照駕駛的累犯的一個數字也都是居高不下那針對這個問題當然我們有些就是委員主張就是說要加重一個罰則那在這邊本席先請教一下就是這邊交通部有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":123.21,"end":135.406,"text":"我簡單說明如果委員還要更細一點我再請林市長來做說明原則上我們大概精神會比照這裡有特別提到跟酒駕來相比所以會跟參考酒駕的立法例我們會區分汽車 機車"},{"start":137.389,"end":163.858,"text":"然後無照駕駛的情形給予不同處罰的額度然後另外還會有對於累犯然後來加重而且是仿照酒駕沒有上限的方式來設計那駕照的本身也會有吊扣的一個期限各種不同的期限甚至到終身不得考照那內部車輛我們會就是當場一致保管然後也會有一些吊扣的牌照的處理"},{"start":164.778,"end":186.409,"text":"那最終呢當然我們也有所謂併把就是說那個所有人的車輛也要如果不是駕駛人本人的時候他也要有相關的一個罰款的一個處理我想大概用這樣的方式來比照酒駕看能不能對這個無照的駕駛能夠有一定的一個嚇阻"},{"start":187.395,"end":215.193,"text":"是 那就是我們看到就是說被吊銷吊扣駕照之後就是無照駕駛的這個就是累犯也是居高不下那針對這種狀況到底我們要加重這個罰則就能夠來解決這個問題嗎我想這個我們可能要再去做一個深度或者是廣泛的一個思考就是是不是我們也要去針對就是說造成無照駕駛"},{"start":216.534,"end":227.161,"text":"的一些狀態類型是不是可以做一些分析然後從源頭去思考要怎樣來解決來降低這個無照駕駛的一個件數因為會造成無照駕駛當然就是說他們違規然後可能就是違反了道交條例的相關的一些規定之後然後被吊銷了駕照那吊銷駕照之後"},{"start":241.93,"end":254.306,"text":"事實上就是說這些駕駛人因為有生計的一個問題或者交通的需求或者是公共運輸不夠便利所以他們只好就是抱著僥倖的心態 鋌而走險"},{"start":256.949,"end":275.187,"text":"就是繼續無照駕駛只要在這個吊扣吊銷的期間他能夠就是沒有違反規定或者是就是沒有發生事故的話他可能就是這樣子僥倖的度過了那個期間然後吊銷吊扣駕照期間到了"},{"start":276.088,"end":299.08,"text":"就可以再重新領召當然這種抱著僥倖的心態也是不可取不過這個也就是一個因果循環真的就是可能什麼原因造成它有一個違規的部分所以我是建議說我們有沒有針對這一些無照駕駛的這一些違規案件有沒有去做過分析透過大數據的分析就是說大概是"},{"start":300.04,"end":314.57,"text":"因為什麼樣的類型的那個違規造成他們叫駕照被調扣做過分析之後再針對這樣子的一個法令是不是需要再檢討的部分是不是可以這樣子做"},{"start":316.156,"end":340.366,"text":"這個部分我再跟委員這個報告一下就是委員所提到的是真正這個防止無照駕駛的一個重點第一個無照駕駛我們現在廣泛所稱的無照駕駛包括從來沒有領過駕照的那第二個部分是駕照被吊銷被註銷這個輪駕駛那第三個部分是這一個就是說這一個吊扣期間輪駕駛那另外第五種是屬於這個有機車駕駛執照去開機車"},{"start":343.027,"end":352.42,"text":"那這個部分 部裡面確實是有分析第一個部分就是按機車跟汽車哪一個這個種類這個無照駕駛比較多那第二個部分就是按這個年齡這個未滿18歲的那這個18歲到這個64歲的那65歲"},{"start":360.891,"end":385.588,"text":"這個以上的大概都有做這些相關的一個分析啦所以那這一次法令面的部分這次有提出來這一個就是說這一個就是說壘犯這一個無上限的部分其實那個部分大概主要是針對這一個就是說應該是零有駕駛執照但是駕照被吊銷因為酒駕貨等等的部分然後後面這個東西所以整盤的部分的話除了法規的修正面那其他的部分交通部跟公務局都有在做研議的配套"},{"start":386.108,"end":411.543,"text":"對 因為就是說針對交通安全因為我們一再談的就是要回歸到這個四一就是教育還有這個工程還有就是監理法規應該都是要併重的因為我們就是說如果針對法律面一直在加重可是源頭的部分我們或相關的層面沒有去改善或者是就是做一些調整的話"},{"start":412.784,"end":426.4,"text":"我想這個案件還是會一直這樣子的居高不下所以這個部分我們就是來再講到一個這是違規的一個部分就是當然就是駕駛人他們違規的時候有一個申訴的一個管道嘛"},{"start":427.421,"end":452.27,"text":"因為我想這是對駕駛人的一個權利的一個保障因為就是會導致到後來他被吊銷或吊扣可能就是一些違規件數的一個累積之後被吊銷吊扣那其中有一個樣態就是跟次長這邊討論就是說像這個超速的部分超速的部分我們駕駛人可以提出申訴那最近就是說"},{"start":453.05,"end":458.192,"text":"有一種狀況就是這個在蔡議委員他也曾經召開過記者會就是針對這個連結車的駕駛他被這個就是雷達測速拍照拍到說他超速了可是他的行車紀錄器啊顯示是沒有超速的可是在這種狀況下舉發單位都都不承認以至於說要走上這個行政訴訟啊走法院其實這對駕駛人也是一個折騰"},{"start":482.003,"end":491.773,"text":"可是目前有一個其實已經有兩個案例了然後最近一個很新的案例也是最近在5月份5月19號已經判決來撤銷他的罰單的就是一個台塑貨運夜行司機這個駕駛他被舉發違規超速"},{"start":501.523,"end":519.666,"text":"可是它的行車紀錄器其實事實上只有72公里所以在這個部分就是說本席要講的就是有關這個行車紀錄器它的證據力到底我們交通部這邊要怎樣來保障這個行車紀錄器的一個證據力然後來保障駕駛人的一個權益"},{"start":520.976,"end":538.465,"text":"是報告委員 委員所提到的這幾個案例的部分我我自己有找這一個就是檢控署還包括法務部大家有共同來做這個演唱那這個第一點的部分就是說這個就是違規人只要能夠提出包括這一個就是說行政紀錄器我們俗稱的大餅"},{"start":539.085,"end":557.872,"text":"或者是說這個因為導航都有GPS這些相關的部分只要能夠提出相關證據這個這個到這個來提出申訴的話這個處理機關都應該要受理那因為相關的證據他都要逐一來做這個檢視那另外一個部分的話大概"},{"start":559.092,"end":578.631,"text":"這邊就提到一個部分因為這個東西是相對因為這個就是說行車紀錄器它是紀錄瞬間然後這個GPS基本上大概也是這樣子的一個部分但是測速照相它是這一個固定點然後相關有些東西時間的部分這個比對就必須要去做這個檢核但是裡面會有一個課題"},{"start":579.952,"end":594.517,"text":"這個我也請這個警政署那邊大概也有作為檢討說如果說在一處這個固定測速的這個東西常常有這樣子違規的案件那回過頭來就要是這個看一下本身這個測速系統是不是有相關"},{"start":595.137,"end":619.033,"text":"我當然這個檢控署所有的測數系統都用每年去送標準去做做驗證但是這種數位的東西這個基本上還是會有一些可能萬一啦所以只要有這樣的東西上次已經有請檢控署只要有這樣子一個趨勢跟現象的部分一定是先回過頭來這個看我們自己的一個系統那如果說確實系統有問題等等的部分那以往處理這些相關舉報的部分就要從寬來做一個處理"},{"start":621.94,"end":638.608,"text":"對這個駕駛要遵守這個交通法令這個是一定的那不過就是說像這種狀況發生的時候也是會涉及到駕駛人的一個權益因為這個如果說他申訴不過的話可能就會導致他之後如果說又犯了一次或累犯"},{"start":639.048,"end":665.07,"text":"它可能就會導致它的這個駕照被吊銷或吊扣吊扣的這樣的狀態所以我要講的就是說這個很多的結果我們要去推因就是說到底這個違規或者是這個案件的一個發生我們也要去合理的去了解之後然後才能夠來下降就是降低這樣子的一個無照的一個狀況"},{"start":666.713,"end":670.533,"text":"然後讓我們的交通能夠更安全好 就這樣"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時19分）謝謝主席。麻煩主席邀請陳次長。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：次長早安。今天委員會針對道路交通管理處罰條例的修正草案進行詢答，可能就是因為最近發生很多交通事故，主要是高齡駕駛還有無照駕駛造成的交通事故，引起國人很高的關注，所以也導致有很多委員對相關法令的關心。今天本席想針對無照駕駛這個部分來請教次長，根據統計，目前每年約40萬件交通事故當中就有5萬件是無照駕駛案件，平均每年造成六百多人死亡、六萬多人受傷，是酒駕釀成車禍事故、釀成死傷的6倍。根據警政署無照駕駛裁罰統計，112年裁罰案件有31萬6,981件，去（113）年裁罰了28萬1,107件，剛剛我們有聽到昆澤委員也針對這個議題在關心，這個部分分成有領駕照跟未領駕照的部分，其中未領駕照有十七萬多，吊銷、吊扣的有十萬多，還有包括吊銷、吊扣之後無照駕駛累犯的數字也是居高不下，針對這個問題當然有些委員主張要加重罰則，本席先請教一下交通部有沒有什麼想法？"],["陳次長彥伯：我簡單說明，如果委員還要更細一點的，我再請林司長來做說明。原則上，我們的精神大概會比照這裡有特別提到的跟酒駕相比，所以會參考酒駕的立法例，我們會區分汽車、機車無照駕駛的情形而給予不同的處罰額度，另外還會對累犯加重處罰，而且是仿照酒駕沒有上限的方式來設計，駕照本身也會有吊扣的期限，有各種不同的期限，甚至到終身不得考照。那部車輛我們會當場移置保管，也會有一些吊扣牌照的處理，最終我們也有所謂的併罰，就是說所有人的車輛如果不是駕駛人本人的時候，他也要有相關的罰鍰處理，我想大概是用這樣的方式來比照酒駕，看能不能對無照駕駛有一定的嚇阻。"],["陳委員素月：我們看到被吊銷、吊扣駕照之後，無照駕駛的累犯也是居高不下，針對這種狀況，我們加重罰則就能夠解決這個問題嗎？我想我們可能要再去做一個深度或者廣泛的思考，我們是不是也要針對造成無照駕駛的一些狀態、類型做分析，然後從源頭去思考要怎樣來解決、降低無照駕駛的件數？之所以會造成無照駕駛，當然就是他們違規、違反道交條例的相關規定之後被吊銷駕照，那吊銷駕照之後，事實上，這些駕駛人因為有生計上的問題，或者有交通的需求，或者是公共運輸不夠便利，所以他們只好抱著僥倖的心態、鋌而走險繼續無照駕駛，他只要在吊扣、吊銷期間沒有違反規定或者沒有發生事故的話，他可能就這樣僥倖地度過了那個期間，吊銷、吊扣駕照期間一到，他就可以再重新領照，當然這種抱著僥倖的心態也是不可取，不過這也是一個因果循環，真的就是可能有什麼原因造成他有違規的部分，所以我建議，我們有沒有針對這些無照駕駛違規案件做過分析？透過大數據的分析，看看大概是因為什麼樣類型的違規造成他們駕照被吊扣，做過分析之後再針對這樣的法令是不是需要再檢討，是不是可以這樣子做？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我再跟委員報告一下，確實委員所提到的是真正防制無照駕駛的重點。第一個，我們現在廣泛所稱的無照駕駛，包括從來沒有領過駕照的；第二個部分是駕照被吊銷、被註銷仍駕駛；第三個部分是吊扣期間仍駕駛；還有另外一種是屬於有機車駕駛執照去開汽車。這個部分部裡面確實是有分析：第一個部分就是按機車跟汽車，看哪一個種類無照駕駛比較多；第二個部分就是按年齡，未滿18歲的、18歲到64歲的、65歲以上的，大概都有做這些相關的分析。這一次法令面有提出累犯無上限的部分，其實主要是針對應該是領有駕駛執照，但是駕照被吊銷，因為酒駕等等因素，所以整盤的部分除了法規的修正面，其他部分交通部跟公路局都有在研議配套。"],["陳委員素月：針對交通安全，我們一再談的就是要回歸到4E（教育、工程、監理、法規），應該都要並重，因為我們如果針對法律面一直在加重，可是源頭的部分或相關的層面沒有去改善或者做一些調整的話，我想這個案件還是會一直這樣居高不下。這個部分我們要再講到一個違規的部分，當然駕駛人違規的時候會有一個申訴的管道，我想這是對駕駛人權利的保障，因為會導致後來他被吊銷或吊扣，可能就是一些違規件數累積之後被吊銷、吊扣。其中有一個樣態要跟次長討論，像超速的部分，我們駕駛人可以提出申訴，最近有一種狀況，蔡易餘委員也曾經召開過記者會，就是針對聯結車駕駛被雷達測速儀拍到他超速了，可是他的行車紀錄器顯示是沒有超速的，在這種狀況下，舉發單位都不承認，以致於要走上行政訴訟、走法院，其實這對駕駛人也是一個折騰。目前已經有兩個案例，最近一個很新的案例是在5月份，5月19號已經判決撤銷他的罰單，就是一個台塑貨運葉姓司機被舉發違規超速，可是他的行車紀錄器事實上只有72公里，所以在這個部分本席要講的就是，有關行車紀錄器的證據力，到底我們交通部這邊要怎樣來保障行車紀錄器的證據力，然後來保障駕駛人的權益？"],["林司長福山：報告委員，委員所提到的這幾個案例，我自己有找警政署包括法務部，大家共同來做研商。第一點，違規人只要能夠提出包括行車紀錄器，就是我們俗稱的大餅，或者因為導航都有GPS這些相關的部分，只要能夠提出相關證據來提出申訴的話，處理機關都應該要受理，因為相關的證據他們都要逐一來做檢視。另外一個部分，大概這邊就提到一個部分，因為這個東西是相對，行車紀錄器是紀錄瞬間，GPS基本上大概也是這樣，但是測速照相是固定點，然後相關有些東西像時間等等的部分，這個比對就必須要去做檢核，但是裡面會有一個課題，我也請警政署那邊做一個檢討，如果說在一處固定測速常常有這樣子……"],["陳委員素月：違規的案件。"],["林司長福山：對、對，那回過頭來就要去看一下，本身這個測速系統是不是……"],["陳委員素月：是不是有問題……"],["林司長福山：當然警政署的所有測速系統每年都有送標檢局做驗證，但是這種數位的東西，基本上可能還是會有一些萬一啦，所以只要有這樣的東西，上次已經有請警政署，只要有這樣的趨勢、現象，一定是先回過頭看我們自己的系統，如果說確實系統有問題等等，那以往處理這些相關舉發的部分就要從寬來做處理。"],["陳委員素月：對，駕駛要遵守交通法令，這個是一定的，不過像這種狀況發生的時候也是會涉及到駕駛人的權益，因為如果他申訴不過地話，之後如果又再犯一次或累犯，可能就會導致他的駕照被吊銷或吊扣這樣的狀態。所以我要講的就是，很多的結果我們也要去推因，對於違規或者案件的發生，我們也要合理地了解之後，然後才能夠降低無照的狀況，讓我們的交通能夠更安全，就這樣。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的質詢。","現在我們更正，我們現在來處理臨時提案。","請議事人員宣讀第1案。","交通部於5月20日宣布，駕照管理將有3大變革，包含考試加嚴增加鑑別度、強化違規者安全駕駛風險意識、協助高齡者安全駕駛，預計3個月內會有細部規劃，希望明年就可推動高齡駕駛換照新措施。","然而「高齡駕駛」制度要上路前，應考量偏鄉地區交通資源稀缺，長者無大眾交通運輸可搭，針對不能換照的高齡駕駛給予TPASS等交通票券優惠，無助於偏鄉長者日常生活利用。","請交通部欲頒布高齡駕駛換照新措施前，應完整考量偏鄉地區交通及經濟因素，提出完整之相關配套，始得推行高齡換照新措施，並於兩個月內先行提出針對偏鄉長者之交通替代方案報告。","提案人：徐富癸　　陳素月　　何欣純"],["主席：請問主管機關有沒有意見？"],["林司長福山：跟召委報告，建議最後一行「替代方案報告」增加兩個字，就是「替代方案書面報告」，這個部分有跟徐委員報告過，徐委員也同意。"],["主席：好，徐委員跟陳委員有沒有意見？（無）沒有，本提案修正通過。","臨時提案處理完畢，如有委員對於上述提案補簽，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","現在繼續質詢。我們請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9938717e072108d238c2a0f21558b58c37ecf2f83f27aab3be3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:06:29 - 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麻煩有請次長好 陳次長委員好次長好最近國人非常關心的事情是不是只要有黨政就可以當高鐵董事長"},{"start":24.449,"end":34.296,"text":"史喆先生他所引發的爭議我相信今天各大媒體市長都有看到我只問一個簡單的問題史喆是有什麼交通專業"},{"start":37.238,"end":58.914,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關這個高鐵或台鐵的一個用人相關的一個程序目前正在進行中進行中 奇怪中央社說行政院已經核定了所以中央社放假新聞嗎他有 他只是他有相關的一個程序程序還沒有我先一步一步來那個市長市長請你針對問題回答好嗎是的"},{"start":65.236,"end":79.489,"text":"第一個 行政院核定沒有相關的一個程序還在進行中所以中央社講的不對嘛那不對啊 那你們交通部看到中央社的新聞就要趕快發聲明搞澄清啊說程序還有進行啊行政院沒有核定啊"},{"start":80.652,"end":107.247,"text":"程序都還在進行啊我想跟委員報告因為他有報核的程序還有核定退文的程序等等的所以程序完成沒有在完成以後會對外說明所以現在程序完成沒有我的了解今天裡頭應該可以完成所以就是確定要完成嗎相關的程序還在進行中沒關係啦如果媒體報導有錯誤的話有的時候未必是故意要寫假新聞嘛"},{"start":108.047,"end":124.367,"text":"因為有的時候行政院的人士不負責任的對外面匿名放話所以已經核定了你如果說是其他媒體也就算了我看的是中央社的新聞啊中央社說行政院已經核定了啊那今天次長在這邊澄清說行政院還沒有核定非常的好啊"},{"start":124.987,"end":148.058,"text":"如果還沒有核定的話我要跟委員報告的是相關的一個程序還在進行這個話你講三次了嘛所以我就問你最關鍵的問題嘛行政院核定了沒有行政院核定了沒有行政院核定了沒有請問市長行政院核定了沒有目前的程序還在進行中所以行政院核定了沒有"},{"start":149.153,"end":170.905,"text":"這個程序還在進行所以還在進行 沒有核定嘛 對嗎這個程序還在進行OK好 沒關係啊 程序還在進行 那我們就等著看嘛等著看我們的民進黨政府怎麼做決定嘛高鐵的公會說什麼對專業經理人的侮辱啊連民進黨的立委自己都講 這當然是仇庸啊"},{"start":172.392,"end":191.107,"text":"社會上面反彈這麼大如果民進黨政府的心態是只要有黨政只要派系隊只要後台硬我就是要讓他高鐵董事長台灣人民要怎麼樣基本上展現出來的傲慢心態就是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":192.708,"end":219.605,"text":"好啦沒關係進入我今天要問的主題發生很多交通事故駕駛人當然會有駕駛人訓練整套的問題道路設計也是大家關心的我最近接到陳情說陽梅休息站設計不良三年十三起車禍七死二十三傷因為我接到這個檢舉了以後我一定會去查證"},{"start":220.834,"end":237.632,"text":"那我看了三年十三起車禍七十二十三傷這個比例非常非常高這等於是在整個高速公路休息站裡面造成死傷人數的道路設計這個是最高的有八件自撞分隔島那我們繼續往下看"},{"start":239.534,"end":267.305,"text":"那我不看抽象的統計數據啊我看具體的案子2015年1月發生四死車禍那時候開始有人質疑道路設計有問題高工局說路口路線設計及交通設施均符合規範這是高工局當初的說明嘛結果你們說明完了以後3月再度發生擦撞分得倒的車禍那個時候啊非常關心台灣道路設計"},{"start":269.261,"end":282.986,"text":"的一些民間人士就出來罵他說我們高工局原來改善的方式就是立牌子家裡有地雷政府不幫你拆還立了牌子說有地雷危險"},{"start":285.694,"end":313.673,"text":"我忠實的把人家對我們交通部的批評把他轉入上來然後他也說這個事實上就是有問題哪有開一開突然出現突起的分隔島壓迫車道的啦國道警察也說有問題了就是不改寧願立牌子來針對陽梅休息站這個被長期批評的道路設計高工局有沒有打算要進一步改善"},{"start":315.241,"end":335.234,"text":"跟委員報告在我們目前來講檢視的部分是一切符合規範但是我們在做強化設施的部分我們有在增加做什麼強化設施包括我們整個一個標線的部分從那個檢數標線開始我們是唯一做好了沒有有做好了什麼時候做的"},{"start":336.834,"end":360.206,"text":"有些是今年年初做有些是去年就十一月已經做完了去年有做今年年初有做結果三月四死車禍一月四死車禍三月再度發生車禍你覺得做的有成效嗎以這些來看的話我目前看到就是說我們一直在強調說進服務區不管是這個服務區或是其他服務區其他服務區也有撞這個情形也發生有像陽梅這麼頻繁的嗎"},{"start":361.646,"end":386.978,"text":"跟委報告 陽梅他現在講說三年多已經超過一千萬輛車次了那經過那個地方 大概都是你們還是覺得沒有問題我們認為是說輔助駕駛的部分是會有相當的一個影響那目前極限的部分來 我們來看一下水泥分隔島前應該施做碰撞防護測試這是高速公路交通工程手冊上面講的有我講的沒有錯嗎是"},{"start":388.178,"end":413.096,"text":"來我們來看一下發生事故的分隔島這個水泥分隔島左手邊的這個照片局長應該很熟嘛那我們的防撞測試就在上面加幾個桶子喔對這個是規範所以這個就符合你們的分隔島前應該是做碰撞防護措施就是加這幾個桶子喔然後加這幾個桶子以後實際上面是什麼一樣撞到後面啊"},{"start":414.513,"end":440.278,"text":"報告委員如果是他在正常的速度在符合速限的規範之下速度的問題齁我等一下馬上帶你們看再往下看來我們來看一下其他地方的分隔島護欄末端的處理漸變式碰撞防護設施這是左手邊的圖啊然後國一北上264公里處碰撞防護設施實際的案子長得像這個樣子"},{"start":442.108,"end":467.979,"text":"不管是採用哪一種設計形式啊沒有一種設計形式是像楊梅這麼喊的前面放幾個桶子就算了報告委員我們是依照整個一個道路條件去做啦包括日本也是這樣的處理是所以你覺得這樣子是OK的沒有關係嘛你今天在這邊我其實是善意提醒你們啦有這樣的批評啊放這幾個桶子我看了我也是覺得很喊的啦"},{"start":468.779,"end":497.287,"text":"這個叫做道路防撞測試 然後我看其他的例子就不是這樣子設計的嘛你們當初的設計圖是這樣設計的嗎是 你們當初的施工設計圖是這樣設計的嗎是嗎來來來這個是你們一開始的時候我把原始標案陽梅休息站興建工程標案它的設計圖說 我把它調出來看了你們看到紅色圈圈那個地方"},{"start":498.547,"end":509.016,"text":"你們看到紅色圈圈那個地方紅色圈圈那個地方就一直發生車禍的啦然後你們前面放幾個桶子啊然後他們後面的設計圖應該要做成這個樣子漸進式的你們後來有去check這個圖說跟實際的設施是一樣的嗎"},{"start":514.944,"end":542.723,"text":"各位報告我們現在目前來講我們要做的是要保護後方的停車場你請你針對問題回答嘛因為你又跟我講說符合規範那我就很擔心啊如果這樣都符合規範的話那我們那個規範是不是形同句文第二個你跟我說有按照圖說那我去調了圖出來嘛我調了圖出來跟你們現場的狀況就不一樣啊這個就是漸進式的啊那你們前面是什麼前面就"},{"start":543.757,"end":550.288,"text":"水泥突然高 前面放幾個桶子那這個跟設計圖說不一樣啊還是我理解有錯誤"},{"start":553.337,"end":576.328,"text":"我們要花一個時間去因為現在是在立法院的委員會的會議室所以我只能調圖說給你看還是我們要辦一次會館到現場去看我這樣講好了啦同樣一個地方一而再再而三出了這麼多死傷車禍我們拿實際的圖說來跟委員再做一個報告所以這不是實際的圖說"},{"start":578.113,"end":595.576,"text":"各位報告我們現在來講說所有的斜面的部分混凝土紐澤西護欄的部分我們現在是改直立的啦剛剛委員看到那個有斜下來就是說前面那個藍布的那個路段它是鋼板護欄的部分它是有放下來沒有關係啦我最後我再跟你們講一次啦你們要在這邊堅持到時候就大家來檢驗了"},{"start":605.4,"end":625.749,"text":"從去年開始講一而再再而三的發生今年一月也發生三月也發生今天你如果在國會還是這樣子堅持的話從我們監督的角度啦我言則已經盡了啦後來出了事情看誰要負責然後最後你剛剛有提到樹綠的問題嘛來我們看一下半徑27米的閘道設計樹綠的時數是多少"},{"start":636.49,"end":660.32,"text":"報委員那個地方齁我們這個速率50是前段的部分後段的部分進服務區他就是應該是減速就是30的在哪裡這個是我現場拍的圖啊這我現場拍的照片啊這個是在前面對啊那你30在哪裡你30在哪裡30的部分是在彎進去之後那個地方對啊啊你彎進去以後你看得到喔你彎進去以後你看得到喔"},{"start":666.643,"end":689.483,"text":"那個次長你看一下照片好不好你有看到一個五十尺嗎你有沒有看到一個三十尺你說彎進去以後就看得到等到彎進去我就撞到了根本沒辦法 他在前面的部分是還符合的進去的部分我們會再做一個處理你們如果還是用"},{"start":690.782,"end":701.227,"text":"本來守舊故不自封的心態這個就為什麼解釋了同樣一個路段一而再再而三發生事故有很多在倡議台灣"},{"start":704.144,"end":727.969,"text":"有關於道路設計、標線設計、號誌設計跟國外相比落後非常多的朋友都已經大聲疾呼了都已經大聲疾呼了今天我是因為接到了檢舉我下去了解人家檢舉的都有道理這不是單一事件你如果說單一事件你自己喝太多水"},{"start":730.106,"end":749.267,"text":"超速去攏到那個是駕駛人百分之百的責任但一而再再而三的這樣子發生我希望啦高工局你們要聽得下去外界給你們好的建議該改的地方要改是 我們會來再做一個評估OK 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時6分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。最近國人非常關心的事情就是，是不是只要有黨證就可以當高鐵董事長？史哲先生所引發的爭議，我相信今天各大媒體次長都有看到，我只問一個簡單的問題，史哲是有什麼交通專業？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，有關高鐵或臺鐵用人相關的程序，目前正在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：進行中？奇怪，中央社說行政院已經核定，所以中央社放假新聞嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：只是它有相關的一個程序，程序還沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，我先一步一步來……"],["陳次長彥伯：程序結束之後，再對外說明……"],["黃委員國昌：次長，請你針對問題回答，好嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，行政院核定沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：相關的一個程序還在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以中央社講的不對嘛！不對啊，你們交通部看到中央社的新聞就要趕快發聲明稿澄清，說程序還要進行啊！行政院沒有核定，程序都還在進行。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，因為它有報核的程序，還有核定退文的程序等等的，相關程序……"],["黃委員國昌：所以程序完成沒有？完成沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：相關的程序在完備了以後會對外說明。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在程序完成沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：我的了解，今天裡頭應該可以完成，是。"],["黃委員國昌：今天？所以就是確定要完成嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：相關的程序還在進行中……"],["黃委員國昌：OK！沒關係，如果媒體報導有錯誤的話，有的時候未必是故意要寫假新聞，因為有的時候行政院人士不負責任地對外面匿名放話，說已經核定了。如果是其他媒體也就算了，我看的是中央社的新聞，中央社說行政院已經核定，今天次長在這邊澄清說行政院還沒有核定，非常地好，如果還沒有核定的話……"],["陳次長彥伯：我要跟委員報告的是，相關的一個程序還在進行處理……"],["黃委員國昌：是，還在進行嘛，對，這個話你講三次了嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，相關的程序還包括報核、核定……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你最關鍵的問題，行政院核定了沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：然後最後退文等等這樣的一個程序……"],["黃委員國昌：行政院核定了沒有？行政院核定了沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：這一部分，我們還要再瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：請問次長，行政院核定了沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：目前的程序還在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以行政院核定沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個程序還在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以還在進行，沒有核定，對嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個程序還在進行。"],["黃委員國昌：OK！好，沒關係，程序還在進行，我們就等著看嘛！等著看我們的民進黨政府怎麼做決定嘛！高鐵的工會說什麼？對專業經理人的侮辱。連民進黨的立委自己都講，這當然是酬庸嘛！社會上面反彈這麼大，如果民進黨政府的心態是只要有黨證、只要派系對、只要後臺硬，我就是要讓他當高鐵董事長，臺灣人民要怎麼樣？基本上展現出來的傲慢心態就是這個樣子嘛！","好，沒關係，進入我今天要問的主題，發生很多交通事故，駕駛人當然會有整套駕駛人訓練的問題，道路設計也是大家關心的，我最近接到陳情說楊梅休息站設計不良，3年13起車禍、7死23傷，因為我接到檢舉以後一定會去查證，我看了3年13起車禍、7死23傷，這個比例非常非常高，等於是在整個高速公路休息站裡面的道路設計造成死傷人數最高的，其中有8件自撞分隔島。我們繼續往下看，我不看抽象的統計數據，我看具體的案子。2015年1月發生4死車禍，那時候開始有人質疑道路設計有問題，高公局說入口路線設計及交通設施均符合規範，這是高公局當初的說明；結果你們說明完了以後，3月再度發生擦撞分隔島的車禍。那個時候非常關心臺灣道路設計的一些民間人士就出來罵，他們說原來高公局改善的方式就是立牌子，家裡有地雷，政府不幫你拆，還立了牌子說「有地雷，危險」，我忠實地把人家對交通部的批評轉錄上來。然後他們也說這個事實上就是有問題，哪有車子開一開突然出現凸起的分隔島壓迫車道的？國道警察也說有問題了，但你們就是不改，寧願立牌子。針對楊梅休息站這個被長期批評的道路設計，高公局有沒有打算要進一步改善？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，根據目前的檢視是……"],["黃委員國昌：一切符合規範？"],["趙局長興華：符合規範，但是在強化設施的部分，我們有在增加……"],["黃委員國昌：做什麼強化設施？"],["趙局長興華：包括整個標線的部分，從減速標線開始，我們是唯一……"],["黃委員國昌：做好了沒有？"],["趙局長興華：做好了，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候做的？"],["趙局長興華：有些是今年年初做的，有些是去年11月就已經做完了。"],["黃委員國昌：去年有做、今年年初有做，結果1月發生4死車禍，3月再度發生車禍，你覺得做得有成效嗎？"],["趙局長興華：以這些來看的話，我們一直在強調不管是進這個服務區或是其他服務區，其實其他服務區也有碰撞的情形發生，就是……"],["黃委員國昌：有像楊梅這麼頻繁的嗎？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，以楊梅來講，三年多已經超過一千萬輛車次了，經過那個地方大概都是……"],["黃委員國昌：你們還是覺得沒有問題？"],["趙局長興華：我們認為輔助駕駛的部分會有相當的影響，目前幾件都是……"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下，水泥分隔島前應該施作碰撞防護測試，這是高速公路交通工程手冊上面講的，我講的沒有錯嘛！"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下發生事故的水泥分隔島，左手邊的照片局長應該很熟，我們的防撞測試就是在上面加幾個桶子嗎？"],["趙局長興華：對，這個是規範……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個就符合你們分隔島前應該施作碰撞防護措施，就是加這幾個桶子嗎？"],["趙局長興華：對。"],["黃委員國昌：加這幾個桶子以後，實際上面是什麼？一樣撞到後面啦！"],["趙局長興華：報告委員，如果是在正常的速度、在符合速限的規範之下……"],["黃委員國昌：有關速度的問題，我等一下馬上帶你們看。","再往下看，我們來看一下其他地方的分隔島，護欄末端的處理、漸變式碰撞防護設施，這是左手邊的圖；然後國一北上264公里處，碰撞防護設施實際狀況長得像圖片上的這個樣子。不管是採用哪一種設計形式，沒有一種設計形式是像楊梅這麼離譜的，前面放幾個桶子就算了！"],["趙局長興華：報告委員，我們是依照整個道路條件去做，包括日本也是這樣子處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你覺得這樣子是OK的？"],["趙局長興華：我們……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天我其實是善意提醒你們有這樣的批評，放這幾個桶子，我看了也是覺得很離譜，這個叫做道路防撞測試？我看其他的例子就不是這樣子設計的嘛！"],["趙局長興華：因為每一個地方……"],["黃委員國昌：你們當初的設計圖是這樣設計的嗎？"],["趙局長興華：每一個地方都有它先天的條件……"],["黃委員國昌：你們當初的施工設計圖是這樣設計的嗎？"],["趙局長興華：最早是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嗎？"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這是你們一開始時的設計圖，我把楊梅休息站新建工程原始標案的設計圖說調出來看了，你有沒有看到紅色圈圈那個地方？紅色圈圈那邊就是一直發生車禍的地方，然後你們就只是在前面放幾個桶子。其實後面的設計圖應該要做成這種漸進式的，你們後來有去check這個圖說跟實際的設施是一樣的嗎？有嗎？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，目前來講我們要做的是要保護後方的停車場……"],["黃委員國昌：請你針對問題回答，因為你剛剛跟我說符合規範，那我就很擔心，如果這樣都符合規範的話，那麼那個規範是不是形同具文？第二個，你跟我說有按照圖說，所以我去調了圖出來，結果我調的圖跟你們現場的狀況就不一樣啊！這個是漸進式的，而你們前面的是什麼？前面就是水泥突然高起來，然後前面放幾個桶子，這跟設計圖說不一樣啊！還是我理解有錯誤？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，這個我們再……"],["黃委員國昌：我們要花一個時間去現場……因為現在是在立法院委員會的會議室，所以我只能調圖說給你看，還是我們要辦一次會勘到現場去看？我這樣講好了，同樣一個地方一而再、再而三發生這麼多死傷車禍……"],["趙局長興華：我們拿實際的圖說再來跟委員做一個報告。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這不是實際的圖說？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，現在所有斜面的部分，混凝土製紐澤西護欄現在都改成直立的了。剛剛委員看到有斜下來的部分，也就是南部的路段，那是鋼板護欄的部分，它是有放下來，因為每一個地方都會受到先天條件的限制。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，最後我再跟你們講一次，你們要在這邊堅持，到時候就大家來檢驗了。"],["趙局長興華：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：從去年開始講，一而再、再而三地發生，今年1月也發生，3月也發生，今天你如果在國會還是這樣子堅持的話，從我們監督的角度，我言責已經盡了，如果後來出了事情就看誰要負責。"],["趙局長興華：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：最後，你剛剛有提到速率的問題，我們看一下，半徑27米的匝道設計速率的時速是多少？"],["趙局長興華：報告委員，針對那個地方，速率50是前段的部分，後段的部分進服務區，他就應該要減速，也就是30 km/h的……"],["黃委員國昌：在哪裡？這是我現場拍的照片啊！"],["趙局長興華：這個是在前面，匝道分叉口之前的……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，那你說的30 km/h在哪裡？"],["趙局長興華：30 km/h的部分是在彎進去之後那個地方。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！彎進去以後你看得到喔？次長，你看一下照片，好不好？你有看到一個50 km/h的嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：有。"],["黃委員國昌：但你有看到30 km/h的嗎？你說彎進去以後就看得到，但是等到彎進去就撞到了！"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，前面的部分是還符合的，至於進去的部分，那個我們會再做處理。"],["黃委員國昌：你們如果還是用本來守舊故步自封的心態，這就可以解釋為什麼同樣一個路段一而再、再而三發生事故，有很多在倡議臺灣有關於道路設計、標線設計、號誌設計跟國外相比落後非常多的朋友都已經大聲疾呼了，今天我是因為接到了檢舉，我下去了解之後，發現人家檢舉的都有道理，這不是單一事件。如果是單一事件，你自己喝醉超速去撞到，那個是駕駛人百分之百的責任，但一而再、再而三地這樣子發生，我希望高公局你們要聽得下去外界給你們好的建議，該改的地方要改。"],["趙局長興華：是，我們會再做一個評估。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌總召的質詢。","在此特別跟大會報告，待徐富癸委員質詢完畢之後，我們要處理臨時提案。","現在請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9b0b98be9a4b1d9408c2a0f21558b58c37ecf2f83f27aab3b420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:57:05 - 10:06:12","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T09:57:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T10:06:12+08:00","duration":547,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.52409375,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.945343750000001,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.505343750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.66971875,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.10846875,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.88471875,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.918468750000002,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.32346875,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.133468750000002,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.977218750000002,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.399093750000002,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.95596875,"end":21.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.79221875,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.02346875,"end":54.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.313468750000006,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.66659375,"end":96.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.56409375000001,"end":114.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.81471875000001,"end":141.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.13534375,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.05909375000002,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.67034375,"end":199.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.68534375000002,"end":188.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.29096875000002,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.03846875000002,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.25034375,"end":244.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.24159375000002,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.96284375000002,"end":279.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.13909375000003,"end":300.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.53659375,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.02596875,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.97159375,"end":329.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.24096875000004,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.97409375,"end":355.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.62096875000003,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.53784375000004,"end":382.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.50284375,"end":432.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.17846875000004,"end":443.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.31596875,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.41221875,"end":482.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.23034375000003,"end":493.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.68534375,"end":484.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.06346875,"end":495.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.62846875,"end":497.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.70846875,"end":503.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.18409375000005,"end":510.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.71909375,"end":517.16534374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請一下陳次長陳次長我特別提醒一下針對問題來回答不然的話這樣時間會拖得很長"},{"start":19.258,"end":40.527,"text":"市長好我們今天要討論的主要是針對入口的交通事故它其實我們看相關的數據它是很嚴重的一個道安的一個危險的熱區我們交通部今年1至3月我們有針對入口的事故造成的死亡人數是達到310人"},{"start":42.948,"end":69.469,"text":"行人的入口事故受傷人數達到2390人高齡者的入口事故受傷的人數更是高達11320人我們也針對相關的行人穿越道這些入口也推動相關的這種行人穿越道的安全庇護島但是涉難安全庇護島之外我們看看近期"},{"start":70.75,"end":95.319,"text":"設置這些庇護島之後有一些重大事故的整理你也看到相關的數據這還是新聞媒體有報導的我們做一個簡單的整理為什麼入口發生這麼多重大的這些事故造成傷亡這麼嚴重那我們在設置安全庇護島之後又發生這麼多的智障的一個事件市長簡單說明一下"},{"start":98.83,"end":114.404,"text":"我想跟委員報告這些的一個案例裡頭當然除了設置上會有一些需要在相關工程的上應該要再檢討之外我想整體的用路人的一個使用可能要一起考驗"},{"start":115.284,"end":140.524,"text":"我認為必須要更具體的第一個我認為應該參考成效良好的這些交通安全的改善設計我們要建立這種改善範本來建議來做一個採用那例如庇護島的設計的這些範本我們也要考慮是可以建立高度或者是應該要有反光的設計或是要有防撞的設計等等"},{"start":142.983,"end":166.964,"text":"來 市長簡單說明一下我想跟委員說明一下有關委員建議的這樣要有一個推動範本是很好的一個建議那在現行本部的交通工程規範或內政部的市區道路的相關規範裡頭都已經有明確的規定了要求設置像反觀導標 標誌的危險的標記或路障道路線等等的"},{"start":167.364,"end":181.61,"text":"那當然這些呢因為已經有相關的規範那相關縣市上使用上或許還不是很了解那這部分呢我們會來建議相關的一個指引當然施工最主要是各地縣市政府那交通部有這個責任了"},{"start":183.491,"end":198.513,"text":"製作相關的指引跟規範讓各地縣市政府回來做參考另外一個就是要加強教育宣導我們要避免這些駕駛的不良習慣所造成的這些嚴重的車禍我們要建立良好的駕駛文化那"},{"start":199.514,"end":212.809,"text":"部分的駕駛他們有一些不好的駕駛習慣例如違規的這種轉向或進行的壓線甚至是未依規定減速等等這些嚴重的問題長久的這種錯誤的駕駛觀念跟行為那"},{"start":217.774,"end":240.002,"text":"我們對於這種安全的設施的識別宣傳啊必須要加強 來說明一下是 我想委員剛才特別提到就是駕駛人在行進這個入口的時候啊盡量有大家俗稱的所謂切西瓜的一個現象那這種情形呢所以我們現在在很多的庇護島我們都會搭配入口的行車導引線所以呢 後我們會大概會加強的宣導這個駕駛朋友到了這個除了要加強宣導之外我們這種"},{"start":247.845,"end":254.809,"text":"安全庇護導致臨時的識別的裝置跟指揮的人力這個部分也要加強宣導跟訓練我們針對改善完成的這些路口必須要加強識別性的這種"},{"start":263.374,"end":285.58,"text":"或者是臨時性的這種引導的措施這個必須要去做處理例如說改善完成入口擺設三角錐等等這樣的一個處理另外我們跟警政署跟地方政府也要加強合作就是說針對這些駕駛因為他的駕駛習慣不良所造成的這些事故我們必須針對這些熱區"},{"start":287.901,"end":298.726,"text":"要加派這種臨時性的這樣的一個指揮的人力加強宣導跟勸導這個部分讓民眾能夠去了解相關路況改變的這種狀況"},{"start":301.624,"end":329.396,"text":"市長說明一下是那委員這個建議呢我想尤其是在很多設施剛做好了或者是有時候相關的一個設施也會有在那邊做相關的交通工程所以有關人力的一個指揮或是三角錐的放置甚至照明等等的我想我們大概都會配套來做好因為我們推動交通安全不是說光靠罰單或是光靠一個相關的"},{"start":330.296,"end":354.663,"text":"工程的一個改善就能夠提升交通安全這個次長也很清楚我們必須針對啊交通的改善工程針對教育宣導還有執法管理所謂的三一的這三個方面去具體的跟中央地方縣市政府要同意合作那這樣的一個才能做全面性的來提升相關的交通安全這個部分次長在跟你時間說明"},{"start":355.803,"end":372.882,"text":"我想委員剛才特別提到不管有關工程教育執法監理等的面向也就是在這裡頭特別提到的希望提升國人的交通安全的文化這部分其實是交通部近幾年來一直持續在努力的而且我們也透過道路的交通安全"},{"start":374.882,"end":394.837,"text":"州或績等等的方式來宣導那這部分我們大概會結合地方跟各縣市政府大家共同來議市長我要最後時間我們來質詢更重要更嚴肅的一個議題都是一樣重要的交通安全的議題那交通部統計無照駕駛的人次在2024年達到28萬人次"},{"start":398.84,"end":409.227,"text":"2022年的時候有31萬人次都是很嚴重那2024年無照駕駛的因素我們分為兩類第一個他就是沒有領駕駛執照這樣的有達到177974人次佔比62%那吊銷"},{"start":418.493,"end":421.297,"text":"吊住銷駕照的這種駕車也有101723人次這個占比達到35.63那無照駕駛的累犯件數跟人數在5年內"},{"start":433.22,"end":436.421,"text":"2023年累犯件數是21萬6622件那累犯人數也高達14萬5318人這很嚴重市長我們交通部針對無照駕駛現在有什麼具體的一個規範"},{"start":449.634,"end":474.513,"text":"我想謝謝委員特別的一個提醒對這個的提醒無照駕駛確實是最近我們看到有它的嚴重性所以我們大概分幾塊第一塊是大家比較關切的就是說相關的一個處罰所以今天也有很多委員大概都提出所以我們在這個相關的處罰裡頭大原則上是比照酒駕原則上我們會針對無照駕駛 汽車 機車來分別予以處罰然後另外"},{"start":479.856,"end":502.802,"text":"提高罰則當然是一個提升安全的一個重要防範的手段但是我有幾個具體的建議第一個我們要建立對於吊扣吊銷駕照者的這種追蹤的機制要提起他們要重新考照第二個我們目前好像只有針對未成年無照駕駛進行講習是不是"},{"start":506.454,"end":516.658,"text":"成年的部分除了開罰之外是不是也要進行講習來說明一下應該也有一起的只是未成年的時候他的肩負人要一起"},{"start":517.72,"end":541.767,"text":"參加獎勵相關的這些規範啊那必須要更具體的去提升這樣防範無照駕駛的不管他是未成年或者是他被調註銷的這些駕照的這些累犯非常嚴重每天大概有10萬或是10萬以上的這種無照駕駛人在街上這樣亂竄這是非常嚴肅的議題必須更具體的防範以上是好謝謝委員的指教我們會來努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時57分）謝謝召委，請一下陳次長。"],["主席：陳次長。陳次長我特別提醒一下，針對問題來回答，不然的話時間會拖得很長，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員昆澤：次長好。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：今天要討論的主要是針對路口的交通事故，其實我們看相關的數據，它是很嚴重的道安危險熱區，交通部今年1月至3月有針對路口事故統計，造成死亡人數達到310人，行人的路口事故受傷人數達到2,390人，高齡者的路口事故，受傷人數更是高達1萬1,320人。","我們也針對相關的行人穿越道這些路口，推動相關行人穿越道的安全庇護島，但是設了安全庇護島之後，我們看看近期設置這些庇護島之後有一些重大事故的整理，也有相關的數據，再來是新聞媒體有報導的，我們做了一個簡單的整理。","為什麼路口發生這麼多的重大事故，造成傷亡這麼嚴重，我們在設置安全庇護島之後，又發生這麼多的自撞事件，次長簡單說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，這些案例裡頭，當然除了設置上會有一些在相關工程上應該需要再檢討之外，我想整體用路人的使用可能也要一起考量。"],["李委員昆澤：我認為必須要更具體，第一個，我認為應該參考成效良好的交通安全改善設計，要建立這種改善範本，來建議做採用，例如庇護島的設計範本，我們也要考慮可以建議高度或是應該要有反光的設計，或者是要有防撞的設計等等。次長，簡單說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員說明一下，有關委員建議要有推動的範本是很好的建議，現行本部的交通工程規範或內政部市區道路相關規範裡頭，都已經有明確規定要求設置像是反光導標、危險標記或路障障礙路線等等，當然這些已經有相關的規範，相關縣市在使用上或許還不是很了解，這部分我們會提供相關指引給用路人及工程機關瞭解。"],["李委員昆澤：當然施工最主要是各地縣市政府，交通部有責任製作相關的指引跟規範，讓各地縣市政府來做參考。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會來做。"],["李委員昆澤：另外一個就是要加強教育宣導，為了避免駕駛的不良習慣造成嚴重車禍，我們要建立良好的駕駛文化，部分的駕駛有一些不好的駕駛習慣，例如違規轉向或逕行壓線、甚至未依規定減速等等這些嚴重的問題，面對這種長久錯誤的駕駛觀念跟行為，我們對於安全設施的識別宣傳必須要加強，請說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，委員剛才特別提到駕駛人在行經路口的時候，有大家俗稱切西瓜的現象這種情形，所以我們現在在很多庇護島都會搭配路口的行車導引線，爾後我們會加強宣導駕駛朋友到了路口時應該要用這樣的方式來行駛。"],["李委員昆澤：除了要加強宣導之外，這種安全庇護島的臨時識別裝置跟指揮人力這部分也要加強宣導跟訓練，針對改善完成的這些路口，要加強識別性或者是臨時性的引導措施，必須要去做處理，例如在改善完成的路口擺設三角錐等等，用這樣的處理。另外，我們跟警政署和地方政府也要加強合作，對於因為駕駛習慣不良所造成的事故，我們必須針對這些熱區加派臨時性的指揮人力，加強宣導跟勸導，讓民眾能夠了解相關路況改變的狀況，請次長說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，關於委員這個建議，尤其是在很多設施剛做好的或者是有時候相關的設施也會做相關的交通工程，所以有關人力指揮或是三角錐的放置甚至照明等等，我們都會配套來做。"],["李委員昆澤：好，因為我們推動交通安全不是光靠罰單或者是光靠一個工程的改善就能夠提升交通安全，次長也很清楚，我們必須針對交通的改善工程、教育宣導、還有執法管理所謂的「3E」這三個方面，具體地跟中央、地方縣市政府通力合作，這樣才能全面性提升交通安全，這個部分再給次長時間說明。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員剛剛也特別提到有關工程、教育、執法、監理等等面向，也就是在這裡特別提到，希望提升國人交通安全文化這一部分，其實是交通部近幾年來一直持續在努力的，而且我們也透過道路交通安全週或季等等方式來宣導，這部分我們會結合地方跟各縣市政府大家共同來努力。"],["李委員昆澤：次長，最後的時間，我們來質詢更重要、更嚴肅的一個議題，都是一樣重要的交通安全議題。交通部統計，無照駕駛的人次在2024年達到28萬人次，2022年時有31萬人次，都是很嚴重。2024年無照駕駛的因素分為兩類：第一個，就是沒有領駕駛執照，達到17萬7,974人次，占比62%；吊註銷駕照的駕車也有10萬1,723人次，占比達到35.63%。無照駕駛的累犯件數跟人數在5年內，2023年累犯件數是21萬6,222件，累犯人數也高達14萬5,318人，這很嚴重，次長，我們交通部針對無照駕駛現在有什麼具體的規範？"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員特別提醒，無照駕駛確實在最近我們有看到它的嚴重性，所以我們大概分幾塊，第一塊大家比較關切的就是相關的處罰，今天也有很多委員都有提出，所以我們在相關的處罰裡，大原則是比照酒駕，我們會針對無照駕駛汽車、機車分別予以處罰，另外也有罰鍰累犯上限的處理。"],["李委員昆澤：次長，提高罰則當然是一個提升安全的重要防範手段，但是我有幾個具體建議：第一個，我們要建立對於吊扣、吊銷駕照者的追蹤機制，提醒他們要重新考照；第二個，我們目前好像只有針對未成年無照駕駛進行講習，是不是？成年的部分，除了開罰之外是不是也要進行講習？請說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：應該也有一起的，只是未成年人的監護人要一起參加講習。"],["李委員昆澤：相關的這些規範，必須要更具體地去提升。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們要防範無照駕駛，不管他是未成年或者是被吊註銷駕照的累犯，非常嚴重，每天大概有10萬或是10萬以上的無照駕駛人在街上亂竄，這是非常嚴肅的議題，必須更具體地防範，以上。"],["陳次長彥伯：是、好，謝謝委員的指教，我們會來努力。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員的質詢。","現在請黃國昌總召質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c923f606c37b09def18c2a0f21558b58c37ecf2f83f27aab3b63ac7a6a43004f445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:44:24 - 09:56:54","影片長度":"00:12:30","會議時間":"2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人、十八、委員游顥等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」、十九、委員蔡其昌等20人、二十、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十一、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十二、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十五、委員林德福等16人、二十六、委員邱若華等18人、二十七、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十八、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」、二十九、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草案」、三十一、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十二、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-13)、三十四、台灣民眾黨黨團(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十五、委員羅智強等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十八、委員林俊憲等20人、三十九、委員廖先翔等19人、四十、台灣民眾黨黨團、四十一、委員王世堅等17人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文修正草案」及四十二、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草案」案。【本日會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-11","start_time":"2025-06-11T09:44:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-11T09:56:54+08:00","duration":750,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":4.097843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.00471875,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.438468750000002,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.872843750000001,"end":35.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.822843750000004,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.26534375,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.12034375,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.26346875,"end":52.259093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.40596875000001,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.96659375,"end":68.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.39159375,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.17159375,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.56596875000001,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.66284375000001,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.44721875,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.72096875000001,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.89346875000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.69784375,"end":119.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.59096875,"end":115.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.94909375,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.68659375000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.03221875000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.96034375,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.31846875000002,"end":151.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.22471875000002,"end":141.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.30346875,"end":146.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.23534375,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.52596875,"end":158.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.07784375,"end":160.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.63034375,"end":171.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.13221875000002,"end":162.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.22471875000002,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.45971875,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.78409375,"end":183.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.52971875,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.52909375000002,"end":192.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.51971875,"end":201.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.73784375000002,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.03596875000002,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.39346875,"end":218.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.21409375000002,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.19909375,"end":247.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.21596875,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.21159375000002,"end":254.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.41784375,"end":254.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.42159375000003,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.02471875000003,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.37034375,"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主席謝謝 麻煩請陳彥博次長陳次長"},{"start":11.485,"end":34.79,"text":"好 市長市長過去本席一直強調交通是專業用人為材您也是老交通人所以只要是專業理性的討論我想我們大家都可以用專業來說服專業那請教現在大家國人關注的大眾運輸的部分台鐵跟高鐵哪一個需要專業的人才來做經營管理"},{"start":37.129,"end":59.27,"text":"我跟委員做說明所有的交通事業的處理呢都一定是要有一定的這個因為他不管是董事長也好或是總經理都要專業吧都要有一定的能力這個問題沒有那麼難回答不是他都一定要有具有一定的能力來帶領的整個公司繼續向前我想這是一定的"},{"start":59.75,"end":86.243,"text":"所以台鐵之前我們講是說因為他現在是代理董事長那現在已經要補了鄭光源董事長來接任他是一月 今年一月才去接任高鐵董事長嘛是的 對不對那鄭董事長我想過去大家也都對於他在大眾運輸也好或說相關交通專業上來講的話認為是說他是可以為台鐵來做後續的安全維護管理他應該是一個合適的人選"},{"start":87.871,"end":105.487,"text":"我想鄭董事長在他的專業有沒有問題不管在以往在航空領域或者是在高鐵領域他都會表現有一定的一個非常亮眼嘛 是不是那一樣那鄭董事長跟現在傳出即將接任高鐵的董事長使者哪一個比較專業"},{"start":107.035,"end":127.114,"text":"我想跟委員報告所有的一個用人每一個人都有他的一個能力來處理他所帶領的一個公司我想所以在這裡用這樣來比較恐怕不是如果說你這樣講的話就沒有相關領域的專業囉一定的一個到了一定程度的領導者我現在請教的是說就您因為"},{"start":128.155,"end":150.871,"text":"使者要去接任高鐵董事長是誰的決定這個我就可以跟委員做一個說明所有國營事業它都有一定的用人的制度跟一個程序就是有用人制度跟程序所以我們想了解說是誰拍板的委員剛剛特別提到的這個相關的一個程序正在進行中還沒有定案等這個程序完備了以後未來對外說明這兩天我想"},{"start":153.613,"end":174.653,"text":"名人不說暗話啦媒體大家都已經報導了就是史哲介董事長了嘛有可能改變嗎我想那個程序還在進行但是誰拍板定案政院人士那我想請教說今天是交通部您是次長我本來想要問部長部長沒來我只能問次長但我想請教一下交通管的是所有這些部門嗎"},{"start":175.851,"end":192.421,"text":"那總是不可能你們不知道高鐵那麼重要的位置董事長結果是一個空降的政委一個過去在文化部文化領域文化領域的部分他表現怎麼樣見仁見智但至少他有在文化領域耕耘"},{"start":193.601,"end":208.914,"text":"可是現在是完全沒有任何交通背景的部分要來接高鐵董事長您一個老交通人可以接受嗎交通的專業有那麼容易的被取代然後可以讓外界隨便一個空降的人就來空降嗎"},{"start":210.084,"end":235.841,"text":"我要跟委員做說明的就是所有交通業務的一個推動其實是靠所有這個交通人大家共同努力所以只要在這個團隊裡面的人大概都是我們所稱的交通人那他都一定會發揮他的一個作用和他的一個能力把這每個人直施其職把這樣事情做好所以現在你是要用你過去幾十年的背景來認可一個"},{"start":237.482,"end":259.312,"text":"過去從來沒有在交通領域的人 然後來到高鐵因為他關大學問大 因為他黨政無敵所以來接了董事長之後 他就變交通人了是這樣嗎我想再一次的跟委員說明就是有沒有看到我們媒體的報導這是今天媒體的報導不懂交通專業 營運專業 憑什麼當上高鐵董做"},{"start":262.506,"end":289.121,"text":"有前民進黨政府時代的交通部長也講說說清楚用人的原因是現在搭過高鐵就可以當高鐵董事長是不是是全台灣只要有搭過高鐵的人只要有做過服務的做過經濟艙做過自由坐的就可以來當高鐵董事長他憑什麼我想跟委員報告"},{"start":292.649,"end":310.388,"text":"交通的一個專業上或交通的一個治理上其實是要靠大家共同來努力的所以剛才委員特別提到說有搭過什麼就一定可以我想這個是跟用人是不可以劃分的所以今天大家只要努力我也不用學習什麼專業我只要努力"},{"start":311.414,"end":331.096,"text":"我不用有相關的背景我要跟委員報告一個交通團隊的一個代理我這樣其實是覺得蠻遺憾的我們今天是交通委員會我們討論的都是我一直強調在交通委員會裡面沒有媒體是好事情為什麼就代表沒有出事"},{"start":332.469,"end":360.367,"text":"大眾運輸也不能有任何的出事因為出了事情都不是你我任何人可以承擔得起的但今天那麼噁心把一個董事長專業外行領導內行政治效忠步步高升結果現在空降來了沒有一個交通部的人敢講一句不對欸還要幫他洗地我們今天問的問題我覺得我很公允的問今天他有什麼交通專業指出來"},{"start":362.657,"end":381.013,"text":"他今天他有什麼長才是我們兩千三百五十萬人有交通博士 交通碩士每一個那麼優質的交通部的人才都沒有辦法接高鐵董事長只有一個外行過去沒有在交通領域服務的人他可以這樣空降來"},{"start":382.214,"end":408.113,"text":"我想跟委員報告 額後的部長是高鐵或台鐵其實他是董事長 他其實是在做公司治理所以他只要具有能力把公司治理做得很好其實都是很棒的交通人市長是 政委負責督導部會對不對政委依他的權責是的好 現在督導交通部的是誰 是哪一位政委"},{"start":411.214,"end":423.307,"text":"有各個不同的領域有不同就是不同的業務有不同的政委現在督導交通部是哪一個政委如果是工程的有曾經的政委如果是觀光的是史哲政委是"},{"start":424.54,"end":449.574,"text":"觀光是使者政委 使者政委下面負責部會是包括文化部 教育部 課委會跟故宮啊它也包含觀光的業務在裡面所以今天現在高鐵你認為高鐵是觀光比交通專業重要就對了呃 我再一次來 非常好市長你這樣子真的是讓本席非常的遺憾啊國人都看在眼裡啦既然你要講專業 你要講董事會現在講是說還沒有通過董事會確定對不對"},{"start":453.736,"end":476.614,"text":"相關的一個行政的程序還沒有走完那我們就來看一下高鐵網站上面董事會怎麼規範高鐵的董事會它有相關的公司治理來來來高鐵的網站這是我今天在高鐵網站上面特別找到的董事會治理辦法其中建立本公司董事人才資料庫適時提送董事會審議"},{"start":477.955,"end":483.47,"text":"我想請教一下史喆什麼時候有被納入高鐵公司董事人才資料庫"},{"start":486.408,"end":508.775,"text":"我想我要進一步去了解因為是牽涉到高鐵公司的公司治理的部分在這裡我恐怕無法讓我們國人了解一下什麼時候史喆這個名字出現在高鐵董事人才資料庫裡面並且適時提送董事會審議不要告訴我們是這兩天喔"},{"start":509.98,"end":538.216,"text":"我想如果說前面有董事人選辦法因為這個是董事要互相選出董事你看本公司董事長的選任大股東推薦前要有遴選管理考核要點來指引全面評估檢視確認董事長人選的資格跟相關經驗並且符合公司營運所需能擔任重責遵守用人為財適才是所謂董事長接班規劃之最高原則"},{"start":539.628,"end":550.067,"text":"這是你高鐵網站上面清清楚楚白紙黑字寫的有零選管理考核要點指引全面評估檢視確認董事長人選的資格跟相關經驗"},{"start":554.344,"end":570.502,"text":"剛剛討論了半天 使者相關經驗是零啊你用一句說只要努力能夠加入就是交通人來幫他脫罪那就代表說他過去沒有任何相關經驗負責公司營運並且擔任重責 用人為財 私財事所"},{"start":572.076,"end":592.061,"text":"有嗎首先我跟委員回憶兩個我剛才特別提到就是說所有每一個事任這個公司董事長的都有他其專業不是當然他也一定要努力那另外一個這裡有特別提到高鐵公司的遴選相關的一個規定牽涉到高鐵公司治理"},{"start":592.441,"end":608.215,"text":"那我也相信高鐵公司一定是依循著這樣的一個他們的一個程序在遴選相關他們的董事而且也會經過高鐵公司的董事會來處理市長看一下本公司108年10月16號還訂立了永續發展跟提名委員會"},{"start":609.721,"end":626.603,"text":"那也請您回去找一下相關資料告訴國人啊所謂高鐵公司的永續發展接提名委員會啊過去歷屆開會以來有沒有曾經出現過史澤的名字啊有沒有出現過史澤的名字"},{"start":627.759,"end":652.15,"text":"好不好今天讓國人看到說他是一個其實之前就有被討論還是說真的是高層清點只要黨政無敵有黨政有關係就沒關係沒關係的話大家就慢慢等即便工作了幾十年的交通人今天次長用一句話說你只要加入就是交通人了我也不知道說這樣子的講法以後大家能不能接受會不會打擊"},{"start":653.17,"end":679.603,"text":"為了一個高官升官為了一個有黨證的人升官然後打擊了所有交通部所有交通人的一個信心我工作了10年20年30年念了交通博士交通順士運輸所沒有用你只要你今天加入就可以當作交通人了這個就是現在民進黨政府展現的態度跟讓國人看到的一個狀況我今天對任何人都沒有喜好"},{"start":680.919,"end":702.788,"text":"我今天對任何人 我對事不對人今天這個人拿的是其他黨的黨證如果沒有交通專業我一樣批評因為這是很離譜的事情國家高鐵是那麼重要現在大家每天坐有多少人在運輸的高鐵結果治理的公司的董事長居然可以這樣子空降這是國家是女人家欸國家是民進黨欸"},{"start":709.96,"end":710.906,"text":"非常離譜跟荒謬"},{"start":715.223,"end":740.717,"text":"我想最後還是要跟委員報告就是說所有相關這個高鐵董事的董事長的一個產生最後還是要尊重高鐵董事會的一個決定還有相關的一個程序現在要推給高鐵董事會就對了沒有 相關的一個程序還是要完成然後最後高鐵董事會 九名董事有七名是官派的還是要經過公司治理的方式來產生然後現在行政院傳出 政院人士講說清點就是使者來當高鐵董事長"},{"start":744.905,"end":748.846,"text":"這就是民進黨政府給國人看到的交通轉眼謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時44分）謝謝主席。麻煩請陳彥伯次長。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，過去本席一直強調交通是專業、用人唯才，您也是老交通人，所以只要是專業理性的討論，大家都可以用專業來說服專業。請教現在國人關注的大眾運輸部分，臺鐵跟高鐵哪一個需要專業的人才來做經營管理？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員說明，所有交通事業的處理，不管是董事長或者總經理都要有一定的能力來帶領……"],["洪委員孟楷：都要專業吧！這個問題沒有那麼難回答吧。"],["陳次長彥伯：不是，他都要具有一定的能力來帶領整個公司繼續向前，我想這是一定的。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺鐵目前是代理董事長，現在要補鄭光遠董事長來接任，他是今年1月才接任高鐵董事長，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去大家對於鄭董事長在大眾運輸或相關交通專業上來講，認為是可以為臺鐵來做後續的安全維護管理，他應該是一個合適的人選，他的專業有沒有問題？"],["陳次長彥伯：鄭董事長不管以往在航空領域或者是在高鐵領域，他的表現都有一定的專業性。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常亮眼，是不是？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：鄭董事長跟現在傳出即將接任高鐵的董事長史哲，哪一個比較專業？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，關於用人方面，每一個人都有他的能力來處理所帶領的公司，所以用這樣來比較恐怕不是很恰當。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果你這樣講的話，就沒有相關領域的專業了。"],["陳次長彥伯：到了一定程度的領導者……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在請教的是史哲要去接任高鐵董事長是誰的決定？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我可以跟委員說明，所有國營事業都有一定的用人制度和程序，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，就是有用人制度跟程序，所以我們想瞭解是誰拍板的？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員剛剛特別提到的相關程序正在進行中，還沒有定案。"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒定案？"],["陳次長彥伯：等程序完備之後會對外說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是這兩天已經傳出來，我想明人不說暗話，媒體都已經報導就是史哲接董事長，有可能改變嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：程序還在進行中……"],["洪委員孟楷：是誰拍板定案？政院人士？今天您是交通部次長，我本來想要問部長，但部長沒來只能問次長。我請教一下，交通部管所有的部門，你們不可能不知道高鐵董事長那麼重要的位置，結果是一個空降的政委，一個過去在文化部、文化領域的人。他在文化領域的部分表現怎麼樣見仁見智，但至少他有在文化領域耕耘，可是現在是完全沒有任何交通背景的人要來接高鐵董事長，您一個老交通人可以接受嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我要跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：交通的專業有那麼容易被取代，可以讓外界隨便一個人就來空降嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我要跟委員說明是，所有交通業務的推動其實是靠所有交通人大家共同努力，只要在這個團隊裡面的人大概都是我們所稱的交通人，都一定會發揮他的作用及能力，每個人職司其職，把事情做好。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在你是要用過去幾十年的背景，來認可一個過去從來沒有在交通領域的人來到高鐵，因為他官大學問大，因為他黨證無敵，接了董事長之後，他就變交通人了，是這樣嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我再跟委員說明，就是所有這樣的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，有沒有看到媒體的報導？這是今天媒體的報導，「不懂交通專業、營運轉型，憑什麼當上高鐵董座？」前民進黨政府時代的交通部長也講，要說清楚用人的原因。現在是搭過高鐵就可以當高鐵董事長，是不是？全臺灣只要有搭過高鐵的人，只要有做過服務的、坐過經濟艙的、坐過自由座的，就可以來當高鐵董事長？他憑什麼？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，交通的專業上或治理上，其實是要靠大家共同努力，剛才委員特別提到有搭過什麼就一定可以什麼，我想這個跟用人是不可以劃等號的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以今天大家只要努力，也不用學習什麼專業，只要努力，我就不用有相關的背景。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，一個交通團隊的帶領……"],["洪委員孟楷：我其實是覺得滿遺憾的……"],["陳次長彥伯：其實是靠著各個領域的人才在這裡匯集的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們今天是交通委員會討論的都是……我一直強調在交通委員會裡面沒有媒體是好事情，為什麼？就代表沒有出事，大眾運輸也不能有任何的出事，因為出了事情都不是你我任何人可以承擔得起。但是今天那麼兒戲，專業外行領導內行，政治效忠步步高升，把一個董事長空降來，沒有一個交通部的人敢講一句不對，還要幫他洗地。","今天問的問題，我覺得我很公允地問，他有什麼交通專業，指出來！他有什麼長才，是我們2,350萬人中有交通博士、交通碩士，及每一個那麼優質的交通部人才，都沒有辦法接任高鐵董事長，只有一個外行、過去沒有在交通領域服務的人，他可以這樣空降來？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告，爾後不管是高鐵或臺鐵，其實他是董事長，是在做公司治理，所以他只要具有能力把公司治理做得很好，都是很棒的交通人。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，政委負責督導部會，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：政委依他的權責，是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在督導交通部的是誰、是哪一位政委？"],["陳次長彥伯：有各個不同領域，有不同……就是不同的業務有不同的政委。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在督導交通部的是哪一個政委？"],["陳次長彥伯：如果是工程，有陳金德政委；如果是觀光，是史哲政委。"],["洪委員孟楷：觀光是史哲政委。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：史哲政委負責的部會，是包括文化部、教育部、客委會跟故宮。"],["陳次長彥伯：也包含觀光的業務在裡面。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你認為高鐵是觀光比交通專業重要就對了？"],["陳次長彥伯：我再次強調，跟委員說明……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你這樣子真的是讓本席非常遺憾，國人都看到眼裡，既然你要講專業、要講董事會，現在是講還沒有通過董事會確定，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：相關行政程序還沒有走完，當然後續的高鐵董事會有相關的公司治理去處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們就來看一下高鐵網站上面董事會怎麼規範。我今天在高鐵網站上特別找到相關董事會治理辦法，其中載明「建置於本公司董事人才資料庫，並適時提送董事會審議」，請教一下，史哲什麼時候有被納入高鐵公司董事人才資料庫？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我要進一步去了解高鐵……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：因為是牽涉到高鐵公司的……"],["洪委員孟楷：一定有嘛，這是高鐵網站上的……"],["陳次長彥伯：因為牽涉到高鐵公司的公司治理部分，在這裡我恐怕無法替高鐵公司來回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：讓我們國人了解一下，什麼時候「史哲」這個名字出現在高鐵董事人才資料庫裡面，並且適時提送董事會審議？不要告訴我們是這兩天喔！我想如果說前面有董事人選辦法，因為這個是董事要互相選出董事，「本公司董事長之選任，大股東於推薦前亦以其所定遴選、管理及考核要點為指引，全面評估、檢視並確認董事長人選之資格及其相關經驗，並符合公司營運所需且能擔負重任，恪遵用人唯才、適才適所為董事長接班規劃之最高原則」，這是高鐵網站上面清清楚楚白紙黑字寫的，有遴選管理考核要點指引，全面評估檢視確認董事長人選的資格跟相關經驗，剛剛討論了半天，史哲的相關經驗是零啊！你用一句只要努力能夠加入就是交通人來幫他脫罪，就代表他過去沒有任何相關經驗。負責公司營運並且擔任重責、用人唯才、適才適所，有嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：首先跟我跟委員回應兩個，我剛才特別提到每一個適任公司董事長的人都有其專業，當然他也一定要努力。另外一個，這裡特別提到高鐵公司的遴選相關規定，牽涉到高鐵公司治理，我也相信高鐵公司一定是依循這樣子的程序遴選董事，也會經過高鐵公司董事會來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會愈講愈心虛啊，次長？高鐵公司108年10月16日還修訂了永續發展暨提名委員會，也請您回去找一下相關資料，告訴國人所謂高鐵公司的永續發展暨提名委員會，過去歷屆開會以來，有沒有曾經出現過史哲的名字，好不好？今天讓國人看到他其實是之前就被討論，還是真的是高層欽點，只要黨證無敵，有黨證、有關係就沒關係，沒關係的話大家就慢慢等，即便工作了幾十年的交通人，今天次長用一句話說你只要加入就是交通人了，我也不知道這樣子的講法以後大家能不能接受，為了一個高官升官、為了一個有黨證的人升官，然後打擊了所有交通部、所有交通人的信心，他們工作了10年、20年、30年，念了交通博士、交通碩士、運輸所，沒有用，只要今天加入就可以當作交通人，這就是現在民進黨政府展現的態度跟讓國人看到的狀況。","我今天對任何人都沒有喜好，我對事不對人，今天這個人拿的是其他黨的黨證，如果沒有交通專業我一樣批評，因為這是很離譜的事情。國家高鐵是那麼重要，現在每天運輸多少人的高鐵，結果治理公司的董事長居然可以這樣子空降，真的是國家是你們家耶、國家是民進黨耶，非常離譜跟荒謬。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想最後還是要跟委員報告，所有的相關高鐵董事長產生，最後還是要尊重高鐵董事會的決定和相關程序。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在要推給高鐵董事會就對了。"],["陳次長彥伯：相關的程序還是要完備……"],["洪委員孟楷：高鐵董事會9名董事，有7名是官派的……"],["陳次長彥伯：最後高鐵董事會還是要經過公司治理方式來產生。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後現在行政院傳出政院人士講說欽點史哲來當高鐵董事長，這就是民進黨政府給國人看到的交通專業，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","現在請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-15","speakers":["林國成","林思銘","林月琴","廖先翔","牛煦庭","游顥","羅廷瑋","林德福","洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃國昌","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","黃健豪","蔡其昌","邱若華","許智傑","陳雪生","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳俊宇","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","林俊憲","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」、二、委員\n邱鎮軍等21人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」、三、委員吳\n沛憶等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十四條條文修正草案」、四、委員廖先翔等18人擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第十六條條文修正草案」、五、委員牛煦庭等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」、六、委員顏寬恒等23人擬具「道路交通管理\n處罰條例第十六條及第四十三條條文修正草案」、七、委員林思銘等18人、八、委員林月琴等23\n人、九、委員魯明哲等21人、十、委員陳俊宇等18人、十一、委員羅智強等16人、十二、委員陳\n菁徽等18人、十三、委員黃健豪等19人、十四、委員李坤城等24人、十五、委員邱若華等17人、\n十六、委員羅廷瑋等16人、十七、委員張宏陸等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一\n條條文修正草案」、十八、委員蔡其昌等20人、十九、委員林俊憲等26人分別擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」、二十、委員陳素月等17人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十\n一條、第二十一條之一及第八十五條之三條文修正草案」、二十一、委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「道\n路交通管理處罰條例第二十七條條文修正草案」、二十二、委員林德福等17人擬具「道路交通管\n理處罰條例第三十條條文修正草案」、二十三、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第三十三條條文修正草案」、二十四、委員林德福等 16 人、二十五、委員邱若華等18 人、二十\n六、台灣民眾黨黨團分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」、二十七、委\n員黃健豪等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修\n正草案」、二十八、委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十四條及第四十五條條\n文修正草案」、二十九、委員林俊憲等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第四十五條條文修正草\n案」、三十、委員牛煦庭等18人、三十一、委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例\n第五十六條條文修正草案」、三十二、台灣民眾黨黨團 (11-1-13) 、三十三、台灣民眾黨黨團\n(11-1-21)分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」、三十四、委員羅智強\n等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十二條條文修正草案」、三十五、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「道路交通管理處罰條例第七十八條及第八十四條條文修正草案」、三十六、委員魯明哲等16人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第八十條條文修正草案」、三十七、委員林俊憲等20人、三十八、\n委員廖先翔等19人、三十九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具分別「道路交通管理處罰條例第九十二條條文\n修正草案」及四十、委員林思銘等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例增訂第九十二條之二條文草\n案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1145802_00004"}}},{"id":"162423","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c90e50f3879ce25351b4fab53e924c0ec17ecf2f83f27aab3b458456231790284f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:19:57 - 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有所擔憂嗎"},{"start":203.044,"end":218.656,"text":"是 我想第六年以後拿掉因為它是一個上限拿掉的話可以是0也可以是100那個不確定性就非常高那當初訂這個法的時候是希望一開始的時候能夠給政府單位補助的一個"},{"start":219.557,"end":234.303,"text":"指導就是前面5年比較辛苦大家不認知農民比較不認識這個保險所以補助比例最高是75然後慢慢的推廣的時候農民知道這樣的保險的重要性那補助的比例可以下降到6%當初的立法"},{"start":236.523,"end":264.252,"text":"75、60這樣慢慢的來不要依靠政府的補助來然後以現在來講我們大概是二分之一然後地方政府有時候會多也會補30%或40%但是它不會影響這個上限所以現在最高的大概是給50補助50以實際狀況上是如此啦那反倒是如果把這個東西拿掉之後反倒是像部長講的是0到100多反而產生一些不明確性所以我覺得這個可能"},{"start":264.972,"end":293.01,"text":"在整個到時候可能我們再討論到時候再做討論那另外我也想請教其實農業的損失像現在年均大概121億其實農業保險是真的有必要性那但是在推動上面的時候現在現金的救助大概是佔25%大概75%等於是農民自己要自行來負擔這樣的損失所以我們當然也希望未來更多的農業保險的推動的時候能夠讓"},{"start":294.091,"end":306.66,"text":"更多農民參與進來的時候能夠讓這樣的一個這個農民的遭受這些風險能夠降低啦不要承受那麼大的一個風險那但是好像成效上不是那麼好部長怎麼來看怎麼來推動"},{"start":309.904,"end":326.24,"text":"我想第一個部分就是整個天然災害本身我們是希望就是以補助它的成本的20%為上限但是現在因為天然災害的頻度越來越高以去年來講我們整個的天然災害救助金花了84億"},{"start":327.862,"end":342.582,"text":"是蠻高的啦所以怎麼樣讓我們的農業保險能夠去補足天然災害的不足那這個部分我覺得才是要去思考的重點所以後續我們會去看哪一些天然災害風險比較高的"},{"start":343.715,"end":368.849,"text":"的品項那天然災害本身絕對有限那這個時候的農業保險就要加強力道去做這個方面的處理我希望部長針對每一個的在深入去那個之後然後跟農民去做溝通啦因為農民大家感受到政府的補助進來讓我做這個保險之後我能夠達到效益的時候他當然才比較有意願嘛如果說效益上不大那當然大家就會想要"},{"start":369.689,"end":396.551,"text":"賭賭看嘛賭過了就不賠嘛但是賭不過的話那就慘了但是一定要把那個每一個狀況給分析出來這樣才有辦法讓那個然後政府的補助到多少能達到那個效益那這樣子才有辦法達到讓更多的農民加入這個保險的部分好不好請部長再更細緻的去把它給抓出來這樣才能夠達到比較小好那再要請教一下其實如果我們把強制型的扣掉的話其實"},{"start":397.432,"end":402.795,"text":"整個保險率其實是偏低的20.7如果把強制的話20.7這其實是在推進了4年還20.7這樣成效部長應該不滿意吧我覺得還好"},{"start":411.335,"end":431.785,"text":"還好啦 但是20.7的一個平均裡面 我覺得水產特別低 水產才2.7而已那水產也會把一些的平均值拉下來那我一直強調就是說 我希望我們的保單的品質要提升讓更多人來投保 那個保單才有它的風險分擔的價值"},{"start":433.846,"end":460.561,"text":"部長也點出來其實20我覺得還有成長的空間那水的水產品更低啦更需要努力2點多而已的話那這個呢你看我們來看一下水產品這個啦其實從106年的20件到107年的19件降到了去年只有剩6件這個整個持續在降啦那幾乎推行的幾乎反倒是降了所以我當然知道現在原來補助是三分之一現在有可能會補到二分之一我們現在補到二分之一有送10件進來了嗎"},{"start":464.304,"end":482.236,"text":"應該10件都會給予支持吧應該會吧10件支持至少比去年的6件就增加了我還是希望部長針對這些水產品的部分再去加強我們先來努力啦因為我覺得它一定是某個環節我們的保端的設計是讓漁民無感的"},{"start":484.057,"end":499.354,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們會努力來這個保險一定是這樣啦你政府有給我補貼了補到了三分之一甚至補到二分之一我還是只有這些建設要來限燃他沒有感覺他還是要去讀讀看所以表示說在政策上應該還可以再更怎麼樣去針對這個問題現在看來是"},{"start":502.397,"end":517.51,"text":"石斑、鰻魚跟蛙魚嘛那我覺得應該還可以再找到更有效的方法去讓更多農民加入只有更多的農民加入保險才能夠比較確保他們整體的收益啦那特別現在的青農越來越多的時候也許可以努力看看去溝通好不好請部長再加強力道啦好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時20分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：陳部長，先恭喜啦！我們成為口蹄疫、非洲豬瘟跟傳統豬瘟亞洲唯一的非疫國，這個非常重要，未來臺灣應該會持續把我們好的豬肉銷往世界各國，創造更好的一些收益吧？"],["陳部長駿季：會的，第一個部分，我們成為三大豬瘟的非疫國，在另一個階段我們會持續的守成，這個很重要。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這當然很重要，一定要守成。"],["陳部長駿季：這個機會很少見，因為我們是全亞洲唯一的一個，針對幾個目標市場國，以前因為傳統豬瘟存在，不容易外銷，現在都可以外銷。"],["賴委員瑞隆：會鎖定哪幾個目標市場？"],["陳部長駿季：幾個主要的，早期日本是我們豬肉外銷重要的市場。"],["賴委員瑞隆：日本，還有呢？還有其他的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：還有東南亞的地區。"],["賴委員瑞隆：新加坡？"],["陳部長駿季：新加坡、菲律賓的部分都有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：都會打進這些市場？"],["陳部長駿季：東南亞的國家都有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望把臺灣豬肉的品牌往上提升，就像世界各國，比如說很多人講到西班牙的伊比利豬或其他的，我們希望讓臺灣的豬肉被認為是國際上品質非常好的豬肉，我們認為這個也是提升臺灣整體的形象。部長會朝這個方向嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會朝這個方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以剛剛這幾個國家都會來推動，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，菲律賓現在已經同意我們可以輸出了嘛！"],["賴委員瑞隆：菲律賓同意了？"],["陳部長駿季：菲律賓同意了，新加坡也同意了，現在我們會開始啟動跟日本談判。"],["賴委員瑞隆：日本還在談判當中？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定什麼時候會……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力，因為我們現在日本也設了農業組，希望用更積極的態度去溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有沒有預定將來外銷的量會達到什麼樣的目標？明年有沒有設定一個目標量？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在正在跟業者討論，因為目前銷日本的有不同的類別，生鮮的以外還有一些加工的，對於加工的部分，現在銷得還不錯，通路已經建立了，跟日本的西武鐵道公司等建立了，以後生鮮如果談得上的話，就可以搭接現在的通路往前走，這個部分我們會繼續努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，再抓一下預估可能目標的量，好不好？朝這個方向來努力。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們跟業者談完以後就會有預估量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們當然希望提升臺灣豬肉的品質，也讓豬農有一些更好的收益啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，回到今天的議題，我看了一下整個報告，現在為止這個法實施了四年多，如果要照現在委員們的修法，把第6年起60%的上限文字拿掉的話，未來幾乎是形同5年內是75%，第6年之後有些可能就完全沒有上限的規定了。我看來農業部是覺得這個是有不確定性而有所擔憂嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我想第6年以後拿掉，因為它是一個上限，拿掉的話可以是0也可以是100，不確定性就非常高。當初定這個法，一開始的時候是希望能夠給政府單位補助的指導，就是前面5年比較辛苦，農民比較不認識這個保險，所以補助比例最高是75%，慢慢推廣之後，讓農民知道保險的重要性，補助的比例可以下降到6%，當初的立法意旨是這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：以75%、60%這樣慢慢的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，往下降。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要依靠政府的補助啦！"],["陳部長駿季：以現在來講，我們大概是二分之一，然後地方政府有時候也會補30%或40%，但是不會影響這個上限。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在最高的補助大概是給50%，以實際狀況上是如此啦！如果把這個東西拿掉之後，反倒像部長講的是0到100之間，反而產生一些不明確性嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以可能到時候我們整個再討論啦！另外，我想請教，其實農業的損失現在年均大概121億，所以農業保險是真的有必要性，但是在推動上面現在現金的救助大概是占25%，等於是農民自己要自行來負擔75%的損失，所以我們當然也希望未來農業保險推動有更多農民參與進來，讓農民所遭受的風險能夠降低，不要承受那麼大的風險。但是好像成效上不是那麼好，部長怎麼看？怎麼來推動？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，我們希望天然災害本身以補助成本的20%為上限，但是現在因為天然災害的頻度越來越高，以去年來講，整個天然災害救助的金額花了84億，是滿高的啦！怎麼樣讓農業保險能夠補足天然災害的不足，我覺得這個部分才是要去思考的重點，所以後續我們會看哪一些是天然災害風險比較高的品項，因為天然災害救助本身絕對有限，這個時候農業保險就要加強力道去做這個方面的處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望部長針對每一個再深入地了解，再跟農民溝通啦！因為當農民感受到政府的補助進來，並且做這個保險能夠達到效益的時候，他當然才比較有意願，如果效益上不大，當然大家就會想要賭賭看，賭過了就不賠，但是賭不過就慘了，所以一定要把每一個狀況分析比較出來……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會個別的把它拉出來看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：然後政府的補助到多少能達到那個效益，這樣子才有辦法達到讓更多的農民加入保險，好不好？請部長再更細緻地去把它給抓出來，這樣才能夠達到效果。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後請教一下，如果我們把強制型的扣掉的話，整個保險率其實是偏低的啦！"],["陳部長駿季：20.7%。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果把強制的扣掉是20.7%，推行了4年還20.7%，這樣成效部長應該不滿意吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得還好！但是20.7%的平均裡面水產特別低，水產才2.7%而已，把平均值拉下來。但我一直強調，我希望保單的品質要提升，讓更多人來投保，保單才有風險分擔的價值啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長已經點出來了，其實我覺得20.7%還有成長的空間，而水產品更低啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，更需要努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：只有二點多而已。我們來看一下水產品，其實從106年的20件到107年的19件，降到了去年只剩6件，整個持續在降，推行的結果反倒是降了。我當然知道原來補助是三分之一，現在有可能會補到二分之一吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在補到二分之一，我們調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有送10件進來了嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：應該10件都會給予支持吧？"],["陳部長駿季：應該會吧！"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果有10件支持，至少比去年的6件就增加了啦！我還是希望部長針對水產品的部分再去加強，讓……"],["陳部長駿季：我們先來努力，因為我覺得它很低，一定是保單的設計在某個環節讓漁民無感，所以我想我們會努力來看怎麼樣去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：保險一定是這樣，政府有給我補貼、補到了三分之一，甚至補到二分之一，但還是只有這些件數，顯然他沒有感覺，他還是要去賭賭看，所以表示在政策上應該還可以研究看看怎麼樣更針對這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會再設計其他的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在看來是石斑、鰻魚跟午仔魚嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得應該還可以再找到更有效的方法讓更多農民加入，只有更多的農民加入保險，才能夠比較確保他們整體的收益啦！特別現在的青農越來越多，也許可以努力去溝通看看，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請部長再加強力道啦！"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：林岱樺委員質詢完休息5分鐘。","現在請林岱樺委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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好"},{"start":134.485,"end":142.913,"text":"那我們就看這個理賠率好了這個到今年4月理賠12.5萬件總理賠金額60.6億你說理賠率怎麼樣?理賠率130%"},{"start":156.485,"end":177.696,"text":"理賠率那理賠的金額每件大概平均多少就要看不同的那個就像您剛才講的27萬件23.4萬公頃嘛那相對的一除的話大概就是幾萬塊吧大概就這樣子所以他這個以理賠12.5萬件總理賠金額60.6億的話"},{"start":185.049,"end":214.466,"text":"就是平均那另外我如果理賠率是百分之一百三的話就是我保費收了一百塊可是我賠了一百三十塊的這種概念啊所以換句話說農民會增加了這個三十塊的的一個一個貨到這個理賠以現在的數字啊數字六十點六億來算的話差不多四萬八千多了"},{"start":215.996,"end":220.179,"text":"平均4萬8千多也不是很高啦保險不是用來賺錢的所以這個部分是怎麼樣去精進的"},{"start":237.406,"end":245.691,"text":"因為經過如果你這邊寫說自104年推動以來表示還沒有這個法例的時候就開始推動了嘛"},{"start":247.346,"end":268.084,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實如果要談到農業保險那最佳的理賠率應該是70%到80%因為再一加一些行政成本嘛那這樣的話就能夠攤平整個的系統那現在理賠率超過100%超過100%表示說很多保單因為保的人數太少"},{"start":269.145,"end":282.857,"text":"保單流出太少的時候他保費沒有辦法被分擔風險沒辦法被分擔所以我們的目標就是要讓更多人設計出一個好的保單讓更多人來投保讓這個保險的那個理賠率能夠降到70%到80%左右"},{"start":286.997,"end":300.664,"text":"就是因為有這樣的一個實際的狀況實際實行的情形所以我們召委才會提出這個修農業保險法第10條"},{"start":302.205,"end":331.307,"text":"怎麼樣能夠當然這個部分等一下如果有主條的話討論的話是可以再討論這個怎麼樣讓這個條文更好當然他這個利益良善就是希望這個補助比例授權給主管機關因應農業發展的需要能夠定期檢討這個部分是一個"},{"start":332.659,"end":344.547,"text":"怎麼樣因為有時候條文有時候硬梆梆的如果我們基本上農業部我們都會相信農業部是會照顧農民是以農民的"},{"start":346.011,"end":373.027,"text":"這個利益的一個尤其是相關的應該他之所以會要理賠就是因為符合理賠的條件所以這個部分是這個部分當然你們有你們的一個考量這個在你們的資料裡面這個補助刪除補助比例是不是不利還是有利在你們的報告裡面都有都有提到"},{"start":374.148,"end":388.868,"text":"所以這個部分你們的理解按照你們對於這個條文的修正的理解就是說增加第二項前項補助比例主管基本考量農業發展之需要定期檢討調整"},{"start":391.27,"end":411.655,"text":"這樣的文字跟你原來的線型條文的施行後第六年起以60%為上限是不利是還是有利我跟委員報告我非常感謝委員包括謝議員委員還有其他兩位委員的版本那其中有個重要的就是"},{"start":412.882,"end":433.923,"text":"這些補助的比例應該要考量農業發展的需要定期的檢討調整這個我覺得我們也在做我們絕對認同那至於說把第六年以後的百分之六十刪掉那那個刪掉了以後反而會造成法的不確定性的空間它可以是零也可以是一百"},{"start":434.933,"end":458.596,"text":"就是沒有一個完整的敘述因為前面只是敘述75%而已那如果說敘述75%然後講的是前項補助的話那就會有點邏輯不通就是說因為你刪掉了後面6年那你的現在紅色的前項的部分就是去調整前面5年可是前面5年已經過了啦"},{"start":459.799,"end":482.666,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得農業部我們未來在調溫的足調審查的時候我想我們會提出一些我們的精進的作為那我都知道委員都是為了農民希望鼓勵農民來增加投保的前提那同樣的我們可以設計一些誘因來"},{"start":484.927,"end":504.604,"text":"增加農民投保的這些意願這個我想我們在未來在主條審查的時候我們會提出一些想法來跟委員做一個報告這個我們討論的時候一定要考量到農民然後尤其是我們考量到這個"},{"start":506.027,"end":526.195,"text":"目前的執行的狀況所以這個比例怎麼樣去決定雖然是授權給你們但是前面怎麼樣去比如說幾個例子其補助第一項補助比例不得低於多少比假設不足補助比例不得低於60%不得低於60%"},{"start":530.97,"end":556.726,"text":"然後第二項其補助比例你還可以往60以上還可以增加給你彈性委員你講到另外一件事情你說不得低於那農業部是絕對反對的啦因為保險本身是一個對價的一個關係如果所有東西都由政府承擔有太多的道德風險我想委員也經常在產業看嘛這個部長"},{"start":558.116,"end":571.128,"text":"這個就是我剛剛只是一個給你討論的方向因為有第二項嘛前項補助比例給你去檢討嘛所以那個第一項的文字怎麼樣去修的會更好"},{"start":572.397,"end":593.804,"text":"這個部分我們當初的想法就是第一項不刪六年的話後面那項留著就很好因為兩個都會考慮對 因為那個以本法實行後五年內以75%為上限那個已經過了嘛對所以已經文字不需要了所以第一項看怎麼改會更好我們到時候再一起討論好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時10分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好！農業保險已經實施差不多10年了，你們的資料說，113年度投保27萬件、23.4萬公頃，按照你的報告，以今年來講，投保19.1萬件、15.8萬公頃，目前覆蓋率是53.72%，這樣的覆蓋率是以經過10年來算嗎？還是從109年開始算？"],["陳部長駿季：應該從110年吧！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你這邊寫……"],["陳部長駿季：現在是當下的平均投保率。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，以去年的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣還是有非常需要加強的空間啦！對不對？因為這樣的覆蓋率……"],["陳部長駿季：我個人認為整個投保的覆蓋率不是一味的一直拉高，我們希望每一張保單的設計是符合農民需要，而且每一張保單的投保人數是多的。至於整個投保覆蓋率本身又牽涉到有的保單剛剛開始、有的保單還沒設計，因為品項太多了，所以我想我們未來會要求投保保單的品質，而不是衝保單的數量。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，那我們就看理賠率好了，到今年4月，理賠12.5萬件，總理賠金額超過60.6億。"],["陳部長駿季：理賠率大概是130%。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你說理賠率怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：理賠率130%。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：每一件理賠的金額平均是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：這要看不同的保單，就像您剛才講的，27萬件、23.4萬公頃，相對一除的話大概就是幾萬塊吧！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以理賠12.5萬件，總理賠金額60.6億來算的話，平均就是……"],["陳部長駿季：簡單說，如果理賠率是130%的話，就是我保費收了100塊，可是我賠了130塊，是這種概念啦！換句話說，農民會獲得增加30塊的理賠。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以現在的數字60.6億來算的話，差不多平均一件理賠四萬八千多元。"],["陳部長駿季：差不多，累積12.5萬件嘛！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：平均四萬八千多元也不是很高啦！"],["陳部長駿季：保險不是用來賺錢的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，那當然，所以這個部分要怎麼樣精進？因為你這邊寫「自104年推動以來」，表示還沒有這個法律的時候就開始推動了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，如果要談到農業保險，最佳的理賠率應該是70%到80%，因為要再加上一些行政成本，這樣的話就能夠攤平整個系統。現在的理賠率超過百分之百，表示很多保單因為保的人數太少，保費沒有辦法被分擔、風險沒辦法被分擔，所以我們的目標就是要設計出好的保單，讓更多人來投保，讓保險的理賠率能夠降到70%到80%左右。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：就是因為有這樣實際的狀況、實際的執行情形，所以召委才會提出修正農業保險法第十條，這個部分等一下如果有逐條討論的話，可以再討論怎麼樣讓這個條文更好。當然它的立意良善，就是希望把補助比率授權給主管機關，因應農業發展的需要能夠定期檢討，因為有時候條文硬梆梆的，我們基本上都相信農業部會照顧農民，以農民的利益為考量。他之所以會需要理賠，就是因為符合理賠的條件，這個部分的原因是這樣。當然你們有你們的考量，刪除補助比率是不利還是有利，在你們的報告裡面都有提到。這個部分按照你們對於這個修正條文的理解，增加第二項「前項補助比率，主管機關應考量農業發展之需要定期檢討、調整」，這樣的文字跟現行條文「施行後第六年起，以百分之六十為上限」相較，是不利還是有利？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我非常感謝委員，包括謝衣鳯委員及其他兩位委員提出的版本，其中有一個重要的就是，這些補助比率應該要考量農業發展的需要，定期的檢討、調整，這個我們也在做，我們覺得認同。至於把第六年以後的百分之六十刪掉，那個刪掉了以後反而會造成法的不確定性空間，它可以是零，也可以是一百，就是沒有完整的敘述，因為前面只是敘述百分之七十五而已。如果這裡講的是前項補助的話，那就會有點邏輯不通，因為刪掉了後面的第六年起，現在前項的部分就是去調整前面五年，可是前面五年已經過了。這個部分未來在條文逐條審查的時候，我們會提出一些精進的作為。我知道委員都是為了農民，是以希望鼓勵農民增加投保為前提，同樣的，我們可以設計一些誘因來增加農民投保的意願，未來在逐條審查的時候我們會提出一些想法來跟委員報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們討論的時候一定要考量到農民，尤其是要考量到目前執行的狀況，所以這個比率怎麼樣決定雖然是授權給你們，但是前面怎麼樣去設定，舉個例子，譬如說第一項寫成，其補助比例不得低於多少，假設是補助比率不得低於百分之六十，然後第二項的補助比率還可以往百分之六十以上增加，給你彈性，這個都是更好的方法。"],["陳部長駿季：委員講到的是另外一件事情，你說不得低於，農業部是絕對反對的，因為保險本身是一個對價關係，如果所有東西都由政府承擔，有太多的道德風險，我想委員也經常在產業看嘛！"],["鄭天財Sra 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這個黃圈圈這一塊啊這個土 山都被鏟平了已經放了 那個就是光光電板 都已經潑上去了另外裸露的這個地區紅色圈起來 綠色圈起來整個那個拖鞋的 那個本來就是山整個山坡地被鏟平了往前 你有看到這裡住這麼多居民嗎 現在居民要陳情那你 或是你的親友 你覺得住在那裡嗎"},{"start":118.24,"end":143.042,"text":"部長 如果是你 後你的親友現在住在那邊你敢不敢住 安全嗎從這張圖來判斷說 現在這裡的房子的安全性啊保定 這個媒體已經大肆的報導了民眾都來陳情了欸 你本來小林村那個妹村事件 土石流"},{"start":145.084,"end":164.293,"text":"這高雄的大樹區耶第二個現在極端的氣候都是那個暴雨雨就下的都很大對不對突然就來啊結果怎麼會把一座山挖掉這座山坡地很多都是參過30%的我們明定是30%以上的躲的這個山坡地是建築開發的耶"},{"start":166.614,"end":192.629,"text":"我跟委員報告齁30公頃以上必須去委會來做環評審查嘛那開發還要開發許可那相對的我們同仁跟我講的就是說這一頁它的整個環評的部分水保計畫是已經被開罰嗎已經被開罰了非常多次啊五次開罰這麼多次然後又危險那為什麼不把它停下來捏阿紅台聽要來了捏不定"},{"start":196.472,"end":203.748,"text":"這個市政府的權責不是農業部可以處理的啊現在有三個主管機關嘛對不對水土保持是你們管的嘛"},{"start":205.168,"end":230.414,"text":"水土保持 計畫的審查 渡島隊 但是也是市政府在執行市政府當然 高雄市也是一個主管機關 所以高雄市政府開罰嘛 對不對它有兩種罰 一種是罰錢啊 一種就是這麼危險 東京直接停了來啊停的部分是地方政府地方政府跟你都是主管機關啊 你當初合的嘛 那它現在有危險性不是我們合的喔 地方政府合的喔"},{"start":231.142,"end":253.35,"text":"水土保存是你們合的嗎?沒有,它整個開發案是地方政府合的啊整個合,地方政府合,水土保存你們不用管嗎?沒有,你們來說明一下吧因為我覺得這個是要非常明確全責的單位啦如果說農業部必須要處理的,我們就要盡到我們農業部的責任如果不是農業部能處理的,我們也不能說在這邊隨便承諾要出管機關嘛,對不對?經濟部嘛"},{"start":256.191,"end":268.236,"text":"經濟部當然他們負責一部分嘛開發那一塊你們水土保持嘛甚至他現在沒有發現他已經月期去開發破壞的水土保持你們當然要做啊另外一個是地方政府是不是這樣"},{"start":269.805,"end":289.265,"text":"對 它所有的最後的核定都是地方政府不管你是水保三開計畫最後的核定都是地方政府我們是督導我們是法規的部分最後的審查跟核定是水保計畫還有執行都是地方政府所以你們督導到哪裡去了"},{"start":290.216,"end":304.265,"text":"你們都不用負責任嗎我們針對我們針對相關的法規的規定啊那如果說有很明確的那個我們可以跟地方政府 因為地方政府是核定人命關天不要推責任第一你的獨立 因為我的個性我不會推責任我們共同解決問題嘛第一個你有督導這個責任嘛對不對因為你現在已經發現問題了是不是要共同解決問題"},{"start":313.403,"end":341.217,"text":"我想如果他是一個問題的話我覺得我們應該有跟地方政府溝通的一個責任希望他們能夠去落實依法去處理這個我想我們一定會做到馬上就去溝通好不好來我們看一看危險性到哪邊來來看看這個問題當然出在中央跟地方都有狀況來你看看這麼大一個山51公頃他現在做供電板高達46"},{"start":344.002,"end":369.062,"text":"他一年營收可以有四億兩千萬我們政府在推光電的時候你們注意到人民的財產生命安全你們生態保護的這個問題還是你們重視的只是光電業者的利益呢當有衝突的時候當然立即趕快去處理啊你看這個多危險紅色圈圈現在是暗場所在的TG區紅色的你看"},{"start":370.444,"end":395.095,"text":"左邊這個地方是斷層地質敏感地帶離那個暗場大概只有不到5公里這麼近喔另外綠色這個線第三個畫過來了這個紅圈圈這個地方土壤異化高潛勢區欸另外還有個順向坡右下角這個粉紅色的歷年來已經發生過好幾次山坡地的災害的位置了"},{"start":396.693,"end":417.447,"text":"這個地區這麼嚴重 結果以前已經有多次的這個受害了結果你把山挖山砍平 把樹砍掉這是政府跟農業部跟經濟部在推這個光電的原意嗎當人民的財產生命安全受到影響 生態受到影響的時候"},{"start":419.652,"end":447.492,"text":"光電業者的利益那麼重要嗎我跟委員報告所有的光電的開發案或其他的開發案的話我想政府有一定的相關的審查的遊戲規則跟審查的基準那不管是在斷能地區所提到的或是高風險區的部分他的審查的條件會更嚴苛所以當他業者沒有照這個方式去處理的話就會所謂的剛才說的所謂的開罰的部分然後開罰到某個程度不行的話可能就會"},{"start":448.533,"end":465.779,"text":"廢紙嘛那這個部分我剛才說了如果是地方政府的權責我們會盡量去跟地方政府溝通但是相關的審查本身它有一定的標準而不是說我們為了光電的利益而去犧牲掉我們人民的安全這個我想我們絕對不會做正事"},{"start":466.959,"end":489.882,"text":"就是速度要快 我剛剛講兩個 第一個要講如果鬧出人命不是只有財產受到影響 鬧出人命就有刑者的問題嘛對不對 這就是一關的喔 要看起來喔第二個更重要怎麼講 訪台廳已經來了嘛現在大家已經注意到這個問題 趕快解決問題啊來 你現在一直在說隔容期 高雄市陳其邁讓人家負責任嘛他暖男市長啊 有心急的"},{"start":491.204,"end":518.918,"text":"結果前陣子已經發生那個清達電廠3號機跟4號機沒有許可沒有許可的狀況之下開始燒煤炭大家已經去追他的責任啊這一個也是人命關天的啊他當然要負起責任啊他如果解決民調才會高嘛如果出入民調當然會掉下來嘛一樣啊中央部會從經濟部跟經濟部會追農業部長我們負起責任嘛來看一下你們這次嘛水土保持法第19條"},{"start":521.067,"end":545.961,"text":"這你管的嘛 對不對所以趕快跟地方好好去討論那個地方啊有那個南河岩那邊有一個南河岩水土保持這些都想你管的這裡沒有化為特定的水土保持區域所以就沒有所謂的禁止開發的行為所以當初那個水土保持完全都通過嗎 沒有任何問題嗎"},{"start":547.148,"end":552.61,"text":"沒有,我不要強調這個審查我剛才說的,所謂的審查我們一定有一定的遊戲規則而且審查也不是一個人來決定它是一個召集相關的委員會去處理的啦所以"},{"start":562.616,"end":582.191,"text":"我現在不確定這個案子本身是不是如同你說的因為我沒有辦法從照片裡面畫出來的東西說說它是安全或是危險這我沒有辦法確認我會去確認說我也不會說因為媒體報導它危險就認定它危險我們一定會去更詳細的了解這個案子本身"},{"start":582.932,"end":606.249,"text":"他的用專業的角度去看說他是不是真的是落實危險如果是危險的話我們一定會第一時間跟縣市政府請他們提醒他們去做相關的事情部長我們跟時間下來人命歡天好來那我們解決問題來所以請農業部在一個禮拜內提出來你們當初怎麼核准這個案的開發的申請文件跟核准的資料"},{"start":607.333,"end":635.383,"text":"還有相關的這個時間點可以嗎這是地方政府我剛才說的是地方政府核准的啊不是我們關於你們這個你們農業部當初完全沒有沒有參與嗎我們只有在農地沒有你們沒有角色呢當然也有經過你們啊農業部就廢掉了這麼重大的事情怎麼可能也經過你們沒有我們可以表示意見但是我剛才講的決定權核准權是在內政部的區委會"},{"start":636.806,"end":646.203,"text":"不是農業部合或不合我們是在處理農地變更那農地變更本身如果區委會同意的時候我們才進行農地變更這樣子"},{"start":647.435,"end":674.072,"text":"你們是督導嘛 你剛才說要隨機高雄市政府聯絡嘛 對不對對 我們會來協調 但是我剛才說的我們不是全責單位 我們沒辦法直接介入至少對你的全責督導那部分來你兩座內 請高雄市政府把那個 還有你農業部當初怎麼核准的水保計畫我好說的 我們沒有核准嘛怎麼一直叫我們拿核准的文件 我們沒有核准啊所以你們完全在水保計畫這塊完全不負責任嗎所以我請我們的法治好不好"},{"start":678.188,"end":704.153,"text":"我們一定的規則不是說規則當然有督導啦有參與啊怎麼可能農業部就廢掉了不是嗎委員報告一下水保計畫的核定在水保法裡面有明定的很清楚原則上都是直轄市縣市政府的核准除了中央興建的工程才是我們農業部來核准所以水保計畫的核定就是有民間開發的都是由地方政府來做核准"},{"start":705.313,"end":729.955,"text":"要跟您做個說明所以這個案子的開發案他一定要擬水保計畫他不是19條的特定水保禁止開發他是個開發案是內政部核准的開發案那在開發的當時一定會開挖整地那只要在山坡地做開挖整地依水保法12條的規定就要擬水保計畫報經地方政府做核定"},{"start":730.896,"end":743.966,"text":"核定完以後依照水保計畫來做實施並監督跟委員報告所以你們現在所以到底農業部的角色是什麼除了你剛剛講的督導要去國中之外呢"},{"start":745.666,"end":774.774,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們中央在水保法裡面的角色除了剛剛講說中央的工程是我們核水保計畫我們還是法規的主管機關法規那我們水保計或者水保我們有助監督剛剛我們的主秘也說得很清楚是說監督所以地方如果有一些執行不是很妥適的我們會來了解那在這個案子就我們所知地方政府有做裁罰他有用水保法去做裁罰也勒令停工了"},{"start":775.174,"end":800.106,"text":"所以水保法該做的裁罰地方政府都做了所以站在我們督導主管機關的立場他不是我們可以去做了解他不是不裁罰他如果不裁罰我中央當然要介入那現在目前來講他已經有裁罰勒令停工你們先盡你們督導的這個責任對不對包含你剛剛講法規有沒有被誤解這個地方第二個你剛剛講裁罰就是民眾跟媒體現在為什麼跳起來"},{"start":802.059,"end":803.28,"text":"台水剛來的消息沒有"},{"start":821.601,"end":836.294,"text":"他那個地是台水的沒關係你去查清楚現在不要各說各話因為我的這邊的消息來源是台水來的我要執行你執行我特別去問好不好那沒有的話就要熱令他天公趕快把安全做好尤其是訪台聽這段時間"},{"start":837.535,"end":863.176,"text":"我剛才說的齁 這個詳情我們會跟高雄市政府去了解然後高雄市政府如果依法已經做了一些決定或停工的話他也是依水保計畫相關的處罰嘛那就結了嘛 就跟農業部是沒有特別的關係嘛對對 東田你一看也沒有停工嘛 現在台水那邊消息就沒有那有 沒有的話就趕快去處理這件事情 好不好那另外做一些比較整體的 保定 做一個比較整體的山坡地 我們剛才說過山坡地"},{"start":864.181,"end":879.555,"text":"整個生態的這個問題 安全問題嘛你是不是能夠一個月內比較完整針對國內山坡地跟開發重電的光電這個問題做一個檢討跟報告出來你的生態保護啊 你的山坡地的保護啊這個題目好大"},{"start":882.67,"end":900.103,"text":"這個題目很大那現在出現這種地方蠻多的啦你有發現台灣現在有一個要種田啦沒有第一個你的漁電共生一些漁溫已經被犧牲了對不對那一些農地一部分現在連山坡地都開始砍樹挖山因為山坡地本身的界定齁"},{"start":901.184,"end":921.896,"text":"他跟他的那個楊蔣是有關的那山坡地本身能夠讓他開發光電或其他的開發工程的話一定是經過審查的一定都是個案審查的那你要告我你要我說把全台灣的山坡地的這些光電的這些政策跟立場這個沒辦法沒辦法沒辦法說明的因為他都是個案在處理的"},{"start":922.401,"end":943.042,"text":"部長就是這個案子出問題嘛所以你說高雄市政府開始裁罰嘛對不對 是啊我現在是說他要熱令停工或是要停嘛不能只有罰錢嘛那你是多少單位你要進去這是第一個第一個是個案嘛第二個我現在就是前面我第二個我是要跟你講就是說有沒有類似的個案是有危險性的你先去清一遍嘛我剛剛已經講了喔這有刑責問題喔如果你的山坡地這樣開發出問題"},{"start":944.807,"end":953.423,"text":"那主管機關 要不要把他扣起來這個有刑責問題喔不要說於心何人啦人民的財產生命安全這如果鬧出人命怎麼辦"},{"start":954.676,"end":979.655,"text":"是不是 於心不安的同時還有刑責啊沒有 所有的開發都有開發許可嘛啊就是開發出了問題所以才要你去查嘛那如果去查沒有問題當然就沒事啊那就是地方政府的問題啊內政部本身部長你怎麼一直把責任推給地方政府地方要負一部分責任中央你剛剛講你要督導你要去解釋對不對現在包括有高雄的地方在那在那看民進黨立委會不會上來要求要做這件事情"},{"start":980.576,"end":1001.691,"text":"這部分黨派人民的生命財產安全中央跟地方本來就是分工的啊沒有農業部的職權我可以介入處理的我一定介入處理我可以溝通了解的我一定溝通了解嘛趕快去溝通這是跨部會的問題沒有沒有我最後只要一個東西我定不定我最後只要這個東西針對國內的山坡地特別是開發去種田是光電的到底安不安全"},{"start":1002.512,"end":1012.951,"text":"你去清一下好不好有發生像這樣的事情我可以了解說現在的山坡地裡面有多少的光電暗場那到底安不安全絕對我沒辦法去判斷"},{"start":1014.854,"end":1036.302,"text":"就是先去看安不安全嘛 對不對沒有 我沒有辦法判斷它安不安全因為它如果被許可的話就是一個安全的那我可以在一個月之內去調所有的山坡地有水保計畫有光電暗場的資料這個可以處理但是要我去判斷說它安不安全這個我沒辦法做到那你就全部 一個一個先調出來好不好我做一個簡單總結 保定保定"},{"start":1039.537,"end":1065.35,"text":"我們是支持要發展綠電的可是光電發展到現在我已經問過你好幾次了餘電共生你看看多少餘溫多少農民的生活都受到影響了這是第一類所以我上次就說我知道你們壓力可能很大啦一方面要充分供電一方面講那些業者你們壓力大火可是你們要多站在人民的立場農民的立場人民的財產安全的立場"},{"start":1066.972,"end":1086.972,"text":"來 我最後說一個總結 你看八十幾年的時候啊 台灣一直在推BOT那時候有一部電影很有名叫《海角7號》它裡面這樣講土地也要BOT山也要BOT連我們面對的大海都要BOT它是我們台灣的海這麼漂亮可是我們自己都看不到"},{"start":1087.93,"end":1107.04,"text":"那是要諷刺我們VOT 氾濫又出了一堆問題我們現在光電也出了一堆問題這樣倒下去連山坡地都產平了台灣還剩下什麼所以政府有責任啊你在光電推動的時候光電業者的利益不能夠侵犯到我們人民的財產和生命安全嘛"},{"start":1108.307,"end":1117.929,"text":"這一定的啊我今天一整個質詢從前幾天問你的漁電共生到今天山坡地被鏟平樹被砍掉這是我們台灣人民要的嗎"},{"start":1119.517,"end":1142.992,"text":"這是政府一開始要推動光電藥的嘛 出問題要解決問題如果他申請剛出過了但是他後續沒有依照水保計畫去執行就會開罰嘛所以這個部分我想我們會來做啦在整個申請過程當然有法律的依據啦可是老實講很多申請案子過了以後一出現一堆弊案嘛所以才需要事後好好去追嘛現在媒體為什麼報導這麼大 民眾一直在陳情嘛我們不能解決問題啦"},{"start":1144.332,"end":1159.323,"text":"都站在人民的立場,特別幫人民解決財產跟生命安全,恭喜大家我今天提出的指示很重要喔,紅台聽來喔如果因為我今天,我已經提醒大家了出了問題,不是只有良心不安這有刑事責任,人會抓去關,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":276,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時50分）請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們今天要來搶救人命，要談一個很怵目驚心、嚇人的光電開發案，尤其現在颱風天要來了，不要造成小林村土石流滅村事件重演，我們要非常嚴肅地看待。這個有媒體報導、也有民眾來陳情，是非常有急迫性的問題，我們共同來解決。這個案子是發生在高雄市大樹區，占51公頃的陡峭山坡地竟然被鏟平了、樹被砍掉了。部長，你看這是現場的圖，右邊黃圈圈這一塊，山都被鏟平了，光電板都已經鋪上去了；另外，紅色跟綠色圈起來土色裸露的地區，那個本來就是山，整個山坡地被鏟平了，部長，你有看到這裡住這麼多的居民嗎？現在居民來陳情，如果是你的親友，敢住在那裡嗎？部長，如果是你或你的親友，現在住在那邊，你敢不敢住？安全嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：從這張圖來判斷這裡的房子現在的安全性啊？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，媒體已經大肆報導了、民眾都來陳情了，上次小林村土石流滅村事件也是在高雄，這是高雄的大樹區；第二個，現在極端氣候都是暴雨，雨下得都很大，大雨突然就來，結果怎麼會把一座山挖掉？這座山坡地很多都是明定陡度超過30%的山坡地，是禁止開發的。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，30公頃以上必須由區委會來做環評審查，還要經過開發許可，相對的，我們同仁跟我講的，就是整個環評部分、水保計畫已經被開罰非常多次，5次……"],["張委員啓楷：開罰這麼多次又危險，為什麼不把它停下來呢？部長，颱風天要來了！"],["陳部長駿季：這是市政府的權責，不是農業部可以處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在有3個主管機關，水土保持是你們管的嘛？對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：水土保持計畫的審查、督導，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：計畫審查一開始也是你們啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是也是市政府在執行。"],["張委員啓楷：當然高雄市政府也是主管機關，所以高雄市政府開罰，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：它有兩種罰則，一種是罰錢；一種是這麼危險的狀況，當然就要停了啊！"],["陳部長駿季：停工的部分是地方政府的權責。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，地方政府跟農業部都是主管機關，你當初核的，它現在有危險性……"],["陳部長駿季：不是我們核的，是地方政府核的。"],["張委員啓楷：水土保持是你們核的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，整個開發案是地方政府核的。"],["張委員啓楷：地方政府核的，水土保持你們不用管嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，因為我覺得單位權責要非常明確劃分，如果是農業部必須要處理的，我們就要盡到農業部的責任；如果不是農業部能處理的，我們也不能在這邊隨便承諾。"],["張委員啓楷：3個主管機關。經濟部當然負責開發的一部分，你們負責水土保持，甚至現在發現它已經越區開發破壞水土保持，你當然要管啊！另外一個是地方政府，是不是這樣？你們現在沒有責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所有最後的核定都是地方政府，不管是水保、山開計畫，最後核定都是地方政府。"],["張委員啓楷：對，但你們就是水土保持的主管機關，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們是督導，我們是法規的部分，最後水保計畫的審查、核定還有執行，都是地方政府。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們督導到哪裡去了？你們都不用負責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是針對相關法規的規定，如果有很明確的……我們可以跟地方政府溝通，因為地方政府是核定的單位。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，人命關天，不要推責任，你的督導……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，以我的個性，我不會推責任。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們共同解決問題。第一個，你有督導的責任；第二個，現在已經發現問題了，是不是要共同解決問題？"],["陳部長駿季：如果它是一個問題，我覺得我們應該有跟地方政府溝通的責任，希望他們能夠依法落實去處理，這個我們一定會做到。"],["張委員啓楷：馬上再去溝通，好不好？來，我們看一下危險性到哪邊？這個問題當然出在中央跟地方都有狀況，你看看這麼大一個山，占51公頃，現在做光電板高達46公頃，一年營收可以有4億2,000萬。政府在推光電的時候，有沒有注意到人民的財產、生命安全？有沒有生態保護的問題？還是你們重視的，只是光電業者的利益呢？當有衝突的時候，當然要立即、趕快去處理，你看這多危險，紅色圈圈是現在案場所在地，你看左邊這個地方是斷層地質敏感地帶，離案場只有不到5公里，這麼近；另外，綠色這個線，第三個畫過來的紅圈圈，這個地方是土壤液化高潛勢區，還有個順向坡；右下角這個粉紅色的，是歷年來已經發生過好幾次山坡地災害的位置了。這個地區這麼嚴重，以前已經有多次受害了，結果把山鏟平、把樹砍掉，這是政府，農業部跟經濟部在推光電的原意嗎？當人民的財產生命安全受到影響、生態受到影響的時候，光電業者的利益那麼重要嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，所有的光電開發案或其他開發案，政府審查有一定的遊戲規則跟基準，不管是所提到的斷層地區或高風險區，它的審查條件會更嚴苛，所以當業者沒有照這個方式去處理的話，就會有剛剛說所謂開罰的部分，然後開罰到某個程度不行的話，可能就會廢止。這個部分我剛剛說了，如果是地方政府的權責，我們會儘量去跟地方政府溝通，但是相關的審查本身有一定的標準，不是為了光電的利益，而去犧牲掉人民的安全，我們絕對不會做這件事。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，就是速度要快。我剛剛講兩個，第一個老實講，如果鬧出人命，不是只有財產受到影響，鬧出人命就有刑責的問題，這要捉去關起來；第二個，更重要的是颱風已經要來了，現在大家已經注意到這個問題，就趕快去解決問題。你現在一直在說高雄市，高雄市長陳其邁當然要負責任，他是暖男市長，5星級的！結果前陣子已經發生興達電廠3號機跟4號機在沒有許可的狀況之下，開始燒煤炭，大家已經去追他的責任。這一個也是人命關天，他當然要負起責任，他如果解決，民調才會高；如果出問題，民調當然會掉下來。中央部會一樣，經濟部會去追，農業部當然要負起責任，看一下你們的責任，水土保持法第十九條是農業部管的，對不對？所以趕快跟地方政府好好討論，那個地方有個攔河堰，水土保持都屬於你們管的。"],["陳部長駿季：這裡沒有劃為特定水土保持區域，所以就沒有所謂禁止開發的行為。"],["張委員啓楷：所以當初水土保持審查完全都通過嗎？沒有任何問題嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有參加這個審查……"],["張委員啓楷：這個地方這麼危險，你們水土保持完全都沒有……"],["陳部長駿季：我剛剛說所有的審查有一定的遊戲規則，而且審查也不是一個人決定，是召集相關的委員會去處理。我現在不確定這個案子本身是不是如同你說的，因為我沒有辦法從照片裡面畫出來的東西判斷是安全或危險，這我沒有辦法確認，我會後會去確認。我也不會因為媒體報導它危險，就認定它是危險的，我們一定會更詳細地了解這個案子本身，用專業的角度去看它是不是真的危險，如果是危險的話，我們第一時間一定會提醒縣市政府去做相關的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們跟時間賽跑，人命關天。我們來解決問題，請農業部在一個禮拜內提出來，你們當初怎麼核准這個開發案的申請文件跟核准的資料，還有相關的時間點，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛剛說這是地方政府核准的，不是我們。"],["張委員啓楷：農業部當初完全沒有參與嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們只有在農地變更的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼可能沒有你們的角色呢？當然也有經過你們，這樣農業部就廢掉了，這麼重大的事情怎麼可能沒有經過你們？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們可以表示意見，但是我剛才講決定權、核准權是在內政部的區委會，不是農業部核或不核，我們是在處理農地變更。如果區委會同意，我們才進行農地變更。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你們是督導，你剛才有說，要馬上跟高雄市政府連絡，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來協調，但是我剛才說的，我們不是權責單位，沒辦法直接介入處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好，至少對你的權責督導那一部分，你兩週內請高雄市政府把當初怎麼核准的資料，還有農業部當初怎麼核准的水保計畫……"],["陳部長駿季：我說了我們沒有核准，怎麼一直叫我們拿核准的文件？我們沒有核准啊！"],["張委員啓楷：所以在水保計畫這塊你們完全不負責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：所以整個……"],["張委員啓楷：讓他講、讓他講，讓主管的講，怎麼可能完全沒有……"],["陳部長駿季：我請我們的法制說明，好不好？","我們有一定的規則，不是……"],["張委員啓楷：照規則，當然有督導、有參與，怎麼可能完全不負責任？那農業部就廢掉了，不是嗎？"],["吳處長芙蓉：委員，報告一下，水保計畫的核定在水保法裡面有明定得很清楚，原則上，都是直轄市、縣市政府核准，除了中央興建的工程才是農業部來核准，所以由民間開發的水保計畫都是由地方政府來核准，跟您做個說明。這個開發案一定要擬水保計畫，它不是第十九條的特定水土保持區，禁止開發，它是一個開發案，是內政部核准的開發案，在開發的當時，一定會開挖整地，只要在山坡地開挖整地，依水保法第十二條規定，就要擬水保計畫，報經地方政府核定，核定完以後，依照水保計畫來實施並監督，跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：好，到底農業部的角色是什麼？除了你剛剛講的督導、溝通之外呢？"],["吳處長芙蓉：跟委員報告一下，中央在水保法裡面的角色，除了剛剛講中央的工程是我們核水保計畫，我們還是法規的主管機關。針對水保，我們有監督，剛剛我們的主秘也說得很清楚，有監督，所以地方如果有一些執行不是很妥適的，我們會來了解。在這個案子，就我們所知，地方政府有用水保法去裁罰，也勒令停工了，水保法該做的裁罰地方政府都做了，所以站在督導主管機關的立場，我們可以去了解，它不是不裁罰，它如果不裁罰，中央當然要介入，但目前它已經有裁罰、勒令停工……"],["張委員啓楷：好，你們先盡你們督導的責任，對不對？包含你剛剛講法規有沒有被誤解的這個地方。","第二個、你剛剛講裁罰，民眾和媒體現在為什麼跳起來？就是人命關天的事情，現在只有罰錢！他就一直做，我剛才說的……"],["陳部長駿季：它有勒令停工啊！"],["張委員啓楷：他一年可以營收四億多，你去罰那個小錢，他當然就繼續做啊！"],["陳部長駿季：它有勒令停工嘛！"],["吳處長芙蓉：有勒令停工。"],["張委員啓楷：有勒令停工，是嗎？一部分啦！台水剛來的消息是沒有，那個地是台水的……"],["吳處長芙蓉：我先說明，今天因為那個地……"],["張委員啓楷：沒關係，你去查清楚，現在不要各說各話，因為我的消息來源是台水，要質詢你之前，我特別去問，好不好？沒有的話，就要勒令他停工，趕快把安全做好，尤其是颱風天這段時間，人命關天，一定要趕快做。"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說的，這個詳情我們會去跟高雄市政府了解，高雄市政府如果依法已經做了些決定或勒令停工的話，它也是依水保計畫做相關的處罰，就結了，跟農業部沒有特別的關係。"],["張委員啓楷：對，當然，你去看有沒有停工，現在台水的消息就沒有，沒有的話，就趕快去處理這件事情，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會去溝通了解。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，部長，說一個比較整體的，我們剛才說過了山坡地的整個生態問題、安全問題，你是不是能夠一個月內比較完整針對國內山坡地開發種光電的問題做一個檢討及報告出來？涉及山坡地的生態保護。"],["陳部長駿季：這個題目好大。"],["張委員啓楷：好大。"],["陳部長駿季：這個題目很大耶！"],["張委員啓楷：現在這種地方蠻多的，你有發現臺灣現在為了要種電，第一個、漁電共生，有一些魚塭已經被犧牲了，對不對？還有一些農地……"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，如果……"],["張委員啓楷：現在連山坡地都開始砍樹、挖山，當然要檢討啊！"],["陳部長駿季：報告委員，山坡地本身的界定跟它的仰角是有關的，讓山坡地本身能夠開發光電或開發其他工程的話，一定都是經過個案審查的，你要我說明全臺灣山坡地這些光電政策及立場，這個是沒辦法說明的，因為都是個案在處理。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，就是這個案子出問題，你說高雄市政府有裁罰，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在就是說他要勒令停工，迫使它停不能只有罰錢，你是督導單位，你要進去，這是第一個，第一個是個案……"],["陳部長駿季：這個剛才已經講了。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個我要跟你講，有沒有類似的個案是有危險性的，你先去清一遍。我剛剛已經講了，這個有刑責問題，如果山坡地這樣開發出問題，主管機關難道不用抓去關起來？這個有刑責問題，不要說於心何忍，攸關人民的財產、生命安全，如果鬧出人命，怎麼辦？是不是？於心不安的同時還有刑責。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所有的開發都有開發許可……"],["張委員啓楷：就是開發出了問題，所以才要你去查，如果去查沒有問題，當然就沒事。"],["陳部長駿季：開發要處理的話，就是地方政府的問題，內政部本身……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你怎麼一直把責任推給地方……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我絕對不會推責任……"],["張委員啓楷：地方要負一部分責任，至於中央，你剛剛講，要督導、要去解釋，對不對？現在有高雄的立委在場，等一下看民進黨的立委會不會上來要求要做這件事情。這不分黨派，攸關人民的生命、財產安全，中央與地方本來就是分工的，中央本來要做……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，農業部有農業部的職權，我可以介入處理的，我一定介入處理，我可以溝通了解的，我一定溝通了解……"],["張委員啓楷：對，就是要了解，趕快去溝通……"],["主席：這是跨部會的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我最後只要一個東西。部長，我最後就要求一個東西，針對國內的山坡地，特別是開發去種光電的，到底安不安全，你去清一下，好不好？有發生像這樣的事情……"],["陳部長駿季：我可以了解現在的山坡地裡面有多少的光電案場，至於它到底安不安全，我絕對沒辦法判斷。"],["張委員啓楷：對，就是先去看安不安全，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我沒有辦法判斷它安不安全，它如果被許可的話，就是安全的。我可以在一個月之內去調所有山坡地有水保計畫、有光電案場的資料，這個可以處理，但是要我去判斷它安不安全，沒辦法做到。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你就全部一個月內先調出來，好不好？我簡單總結……"],["主席：好不好？把所有的資料給……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們是支持要發展綠電的，可是光電發展到現在，我已經問過你好幾次了，你看漁電共生有多少魚塭、多少農民的生活都受到影響，這是第一個。我上次就說，我知道你們壓力可能很大，一方面要充分供電，一方面那些業者……老實說，你們壓力大我也知道，可是你們要多站在人民的立場、農民的立場、人民財產安全的立場。","我最後總結，八十幾年的時候，臺灣一直在推BOT，那時候有一部電影很有名，叫「海角七號」，裡面這樣講，土地也要BOT，山也要BOT，連我們面對的大海都要BOT，臺灣的海這麼漂亮，可是我們自己都看不到。那是在諷刺BOT氾濫又出了一堆問題。現在光電也出了一堆問題，這樣搞下去，連山坡地都鏟平了，臺灣還剩下什麼？所以政府有責任，在推動光電的時候，光電業者的利益不能夠侵犯到人民的財產及生命安全，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：這一定的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你要努力，從我前幾天問你的漁電共生，到我今天質詢山坡地被鏟平、樹被砍掉，這是臺灣人民要的嗎？這是政府一開始推動光電要的嗎？現在出問題要解決問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我還是一句話，如果申請過了，但是他們後續沒有依照水保計畫執行，就會開罰，這個部分我們會來做。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，在整個申請過程當然有法律的依據，可是老實講，很多申請案子過了以後，出現一堆弊案，所以才需要事後好好去追。現在媒體為什麼報導這麼大？因為民眾已經在陳情，我們共同解決問題，多站在人民的立場，特別幫人民解決財產、生命安全的問題。說實在的，我今天提出的質詢很重要，颱風天來了，我今天已經提醒大家了，如果出了問題，不是只有良心不安，這個有刑事責任，人會被抓去關，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我想請一下農業部陳部長陳部長"},{"start":19.136,"end":46.431,"text":"部長好因為今天主席特別安排了一個農保條例的審查那你剛有特別針對說對於這次委員提出的版本其實農業部希望是先不去做這個調整那我想說因為在你的報告當中就有特別提到說到114年4月30號之後我們的農保覆蓋率有53.72%對不對那我想說因為這裡面能夠這麼高因為很大一部分是因為有強制納保的一個部分"},{"start":47.071,"end":63.29,"text":"那我想說如果扣除掉水稻跟豬肢的強生老婆還有20.7那聽起來也是挺高的比當時那個之前的陳宜仲部長他期待的數字還要高那我想特別看一下因為我針對這個也是"},{"start":65.532,"end":91.383,"text":"今年的4月30號當中的時候也是一個農業保險那個投保情況的表當中的時候我發現裡面有一些狀態數字其實坦白說很不漂亮啦比方說以禽流感來講的時候比方說我們看到說它整個投保的租資大概是716萬支可是部長你知道說我們整個那個台灣這邊所有的那個機資總共有多少支你知道嗎"},{"start":92.925,"end":111.836,"text":"豬肉還是雞?雞雞雞雞的部分多少隻?三億一千萬三億三億一千萬隻三億千萬隻如果三億千萬隻只有700隻的話他的比例非常非常的低啦那我想說除了說禽流感這個部分我們如果有三億多隻的雞隻的時候呢"},{"start":113.177,"end":136.878,"text":"那跟這個部分 因為你的數字更大那表示統計的一個標準不一樣可是我們看到整個一個投保的一個機織顯然數字非常的低 非常的低那我另外再挑出一個狀態剛剛林德鋒也特別提到了一個香蕉的一個植出的部分我們香蕉這邊目前只有79公頃我們全台灣香蕉的面積 種植面積有多大"},{"start":138.086,"end":150.65,"text":"大概1萬5、1萬6所以這比例也非常非常的低只有0.48% 0.5%都不到這數字也非常的不漂亮那另外的部分針對那個租資的運輸"},{"start":155.051,"end":176.887,"text":"跟豬隻的死亡的相關的保險數字也都很差豬隻的運輸的部分的時候大概只有我看到說如果說我們保險的數字只有25萬隻的時候相較於整體的台灣的一個豬隻來說比例大概5%不到那如果是針對死亡的部分的時候只有0.25%更低那我想說針對這樣子的一個狀態的是因為剛剛提到說那個"},{"start":180.99,"end":208.415,"text":"排除掉我們強制納保的部分還有20%以上這數字看起來本來是不錯的數字可當我們看到這細部 個別品項我們必須有一些低的我們必須要去檢討那您剛才說的豬隻的運輸的保險的部分因為現在是自願式的嘛那我們會考量因為它從生產端到運輸端到土甲端我們希望是連在一起的所以我們會考慮它的強制性然後特別我也跟委員報告其實"},{"start":209.495,"end":232.406,"text":"這個平均20.7%裡面其實水產才是我們更需要去加強的那因為水產本身現在我所知道投保率大概只有2.7%左右所以它也把整體的那個平均的保險規格率拉下來了所以後續我們會針對比較特殊的品項包括您剛才講的香蕉如何去增進它的保險的"},{"start":233.607,"end":256.165,"text":"投保意願那很重要就是保費啦跟理賠金額農民本身的認知跟我們在做精算的時候的認知是不太一樣的所以我們會盡可能讓農民了解很多保險他的保費比較高是因為他的風險高的時候他比保費的保費保額就會變高那這個部分可能"},{"start":256.926,"end":273.216,"text":"可能都要做更多的宣導理解 因為就像我們比方說一般人的保險不然是受險或者是殘險的部分它也是經過很長的時間的溝通然後慢慢讓民眾能夠接受農業保險這樣一個新的概念從110年到現在開始推動的時候其實也就是大概4年5年不到的時間"},{"start":277.338,"end":287.285,"text":"所以我們希望這過程當中其實能夠農業部這邊能夠加緊一些腳步因為本系也認為農業保險是一件好的事情就不能只靠政府的一個天災救助的部分來解決農業的一個問題所以我們也希望說能夠透過民間然後市場的一個農業保險的方式的時候能夠讓台灣的農業更為茁壯然後讓農民能夠得到更大的一個保障那這過程當中我們就希望說農業部這邊有更扎實然後更有強大的一個力量去推動它"},{"start":307.598,"end":332.741,"text":"讓民眾能夠讓農民能夠真正知道說農業保險對他們的重要性所以我剛剛特別提到這個部分就是說20.7的數字感覺很漂亮可是細部來看的時候事實上是很不足的尤其像剛剛針對禽牛桿這部分數字就更低了所以我們希望說部長這邊針對這農業保險推廣的時候能夠更加緊動作讓農民能夠真正了解好不好好 我不想我們未來努力來朝這個保單的一個"},{"start":334.602,"end":352.333,"text":"我一直強調跟委員報告我一直強調我不會去追求保單的數量增加我會去要求保單的品質提高讓每一個保單就有很多人投保很多人投保以後他的保費風險分擔就會變低了有大數法則之後才能夠得到保險的價值跟功效對 這個是我的目標"},{"start":356.496,"end":378.088,"text":"是 理解 那我想請教一下 因為那個想請教部長 就是我們今年整個紅火椅的那個相關的一個房子預算大概有多少錢紅火椅預算多少紅火椅將近三千萬左右將近三千萬 去年其實有三千兩百萬那我想問 琉璃椅這邊有沒有房子經費"},{"start":379.83,"end":386.324,"text":"琉璃椅的部分琉璃椅我們沒有防治經費沒有防治經費嘛齁那為什麼沒有防治經費勒齁"},{"start":388.566,"end":407.392,"text":"最主要是琉璃蟻它本身不直接危害作物就認為它不是農業害蟲嘛對不對所以我們沒辦法編相關的這個經典我想請教一下因為那個琉璃蟻在2019年的時候那時候農業部這邊有針對一個目前它的一個危害的範圍我想說當時講出來的狀態是有9個縣市24個鄉鎮"},{"start":412.273,"end":440.066,"text":"都有琉璃椅的一個那個危害的一個範圍那我想說有沒有最新的一個數字最新的數字是範圍是多大我現在手邊沒這個資料可能後續再提供給委員因為這裡面很特殊因為新竹市也在這個琉璃椅的一個肆虐的範圍當中那針對這個部分很多民眾他們去去投書或檢舉的時候呢其實我們看到了比方說"},{"start":442.368,"end":450.656,"text":"農業部這邊因為你剛剛提到說因為你覺得他不是一個農業害蟲所以沒有辦法去做太多的一個動作然後另外就是環境部這邊也認為說"},{"start":452.847,"end":473.207,"text":"琉璃椅它其實是從農業這邊來的它就應該是農業部在管所以環境部他們也不管衛福部這邊的時候呢認為說琉璃椅它沒有傳染疾病所以他們也不管所以變成琉璃椅就變成一個大家都不管的一個情況那本席是認為農業部這邊的時候是不是應該把這部分把它給"},{"start":474.768,"end":489.189,"text":"這個工作把它接起來而不是各部會當中大家不斷的推皮球那因為我們目前針對這個琉璃椅的部分目前的狀態就是說給他們一個幼稚嘛幼稚那農業部這邊建議的狀態的時候就是糖水加膨沙"},{"start":490.31,"end":506.897,"text":"就是調整成一個右繼去處理這個問題可是這個部分對於豐農是有影響的所以我們認為說目前如果說農業部還是不把琉璃役當作是一個農業害蟲的時候這事情其實是沒有解的"},{"start":507.277,"end":533.346,"text":"他就繼續的去肆虐擴大更大的一個範圍所以本席這邊是不是希望部長這邊能夠把這個事情把它擔當起來因為它是不是有一個農業害蟲的部分它其實是定義的問題就像我們目前的琉璃蟻的幼稷有些學者就說它對於豐農是產生影響的所以這個部分是不是有可能請部長把琉璃蟻這件事情當做一件事情來對待"},{"start":534.846,"end":559.791,"text":"我想跟委員報告以我的立場我們既然已經看到一個問題那雖然說農業部的定義來講它不屬於農業害蟲但是相對的它的確也在田裡面造成了一些困擾那特別是芽蟲跟那個寄馬這個部分我們是可以透過這個方式所以我很願意就是針對這個工作"},{"start":561.611,"end":583.094,"text":"能夠跟衛部正式啟動一個跨部會的協調因為不能只有農業部做因為居家環境而且是要用區域防治的概念區域防治的概念才有可能去把它降到最低啦所以這個部分我想我願意啟動這樣的一個跨部會的一個平台而不是互相推不是我的不是你的這樣子"},{"start":583.755,"end":603.642,"text":"OK 謝部長我覺得這是一個很正面的態度來面對這個問題那我們也希望這個後續有一些進度的時候再隨時跟本辦公室做一個回報好不好可以那另外最後一個問題就是因為現在的一個對美的一個關稅貿易談判當中的時候我想特別關注一個狀態其實就是茶葉的一個部分"},{"start":604.442,"end":631.633,"text":"那茶葉的部分的時候 台灣目前茶葉枢美大概是佔整個台灣出口的三成左右大概31對 31%嘛但是31%當中的時候因為我們看到整個茶葉的一個狀態的時候我們會發現整個茶葉出口的部分其實是用一個拼配的一個方式在做處理那拼配的這邊的時候就是跟洗產地這邊的時候我們要怎麼去做定義"},{"start":632.313,"end":645.234,"text":"部長這邊可以簡單做一個說明我跟委員報告齁其實台灣最強的就是我們的拼配的技術但是我們為了讓我們的國產茶本身有它的一定的一定的"},{"start":646.64,"end":669.182,"text":"認同所以你要標示為台灣茶的時候一定是要100%的茶葉用台灣的茶不能用拼配的方式那第二個部分是當你出口的時候你有超過55%去做實質轉型的時候你可以去掛我們的產地的部分但是你的標示裡面你還是要去標你的來你的茶葉裡面的來源國啦"},{"start":669.682,"end":685.008,"text":"那這樣的話就不會被認為是息產地你如果只標台灣茶去出口但是裡面你可能混到越南茶混到其他國家的茶的時候那就會被誤認為息產地但是你的標示裡面你如果誠實標示的話就不會這樣子"},{"start":686.989,"end":703.362,"text":"你提這個點其實本席可以理解台灣茶認為要百分之百才能夠標入台灣茶不過我覺得這邊有個概念是英國茶的概念英國其實並沒有產茶葉可是英國的茶葉風行全世界他們其實也是某一個部分其實也用拼配的方式在做所有的"},{"start":703.842,"end":726.391,"text":"後續的一個製造跟程序所以說本席這邊也希望說藉由這樣的一個關稅一個談判過程當中的時候把台灣的一個所謂的拼配茶這樣的一個定義當中的時候讓它更清楚然後讓我們其實台灣的茶農在跟國外在做相關出口的時候能夠有一個比較好的一個對待那在這邊就請部長這邊針對這個拼配茶這個部分的時候"},{"start":729.372,"end":744.47,"text":"我們能夠好好去做一個新的定義然後讓我們的國際的貿易對象也能夠去理解台灣這邊的一個政策好不好我想我們會針對拼杯茶本身怎麼樣有利於我們國內的拼杯茶的外銷我想這部分我們會來努力"},{"start":744.87,"end":763.936,"text":"是因为目前看起来来说台湾目前国产的茶叶其实已经没有进口的茶叶多了所以拼配茶这部分肯定是台湾的一个茶叶的业者他们其实很关注的一个部分好不好是谢谢部长好谢谢好谢谢现在请张其凯委员作询"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時37分）謝謝主席，我想請一下農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天主席特別安排農保條例審查，你剛才有特別針對這次委員提出的版本說，其實農業部希望先不做調整。在你的報告當中就有特別提到，到114年4月30日止，農保覆蓋率有53.72%，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這裡面能夠這麼高，很大一部分是因為有強制納保的部分，如果扣除掉水稻跟豬隻強制納保的部分……"],["陳部長駿季：20.7%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還有20.7%，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，20.7%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：聽起來也是挺高的，比之前陳吉仲部長期待的數字還要高。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我特別看一下今年4月30日的農業保險投保情況表，我發現裡面有一些狀態、數字，坦白說很不漂亮，比方以禽流感來講，我們看到整個投保的雞隻大概是776萬隻，可是臺灣所有的雞隻總共有幾多少隻，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：豬還是雞？"],["鄭委員正鈐：雞，這數字可能……"],["陳部長駿季：3億1,000萬。"],["鄭委員正鈐：3億？"],["陳部長駿季：3億1,000萬隻。"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果3億1,000萬隻中只有776萬隻，它的比例非常、非常的低，除了禽流感這個部分，如果有三億多隻雞隻的時候，因為你的數字更大，表示統計的標準不一樣，可是我們看到整個投保的雞隻數量顯然非常的低。我另外再挑出一個狀態，剛剛林德福委員特別提到香蕉植株，香蕉目前投保的只有79公頃，全臺灣香蕉的種植面積有多大？"],["陳部長駿季：大概一萬五、一萬六左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以比例也非常、非常的低，只有0.48%，0.5%都不到，這數字也非常不漂亮。另外，針對豬隻運輸跟豬隻死亡的相關保險，數字也都很差，豬隻運輸的部分大概只有……我看到如果保險數字只有25萬隻，相較於整體臺灣的豬隻來說，比例大概5%不到；如果是針對死亡的部分更低，只有0.25%。針對這樣的狀態，因為你剛剛提到排除掉強制納保的部分還有20%以上，這數字看起來本來是不錯的數字，可是當我們看到細部……"],["陳部長駿季：個別品項有一些低的，我們必須要去檢討。您剛才說的豬隻運輸保險，因為現在是自願式的，我們會考量。因為從生產端到運輸端、到屠宰端，我們希望是連在一起的，所以我們會考慮它的強制性。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是。"],["陳部長駿季：特別跟委員報告，這個平均20.7%裡面，其實水產才是我們更需要去加強的，因為水產本身，現在我所知道的投保率大概只有2.7%左右，所以它也把整體保險的平均覆蓋率拉下來了。後續我們會針對比較特殊的品項，包括您剛才講的如何增進香蕉保險投保意願，很重要的就是保費跟理賠金額，農民本身的認知跟我們在精算時候的認知是不大一樣的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們會盡可能讓農民了解，很多保險的保費比較高是因為風險高，保額就會變高，這個部分可能都要做更多宣導，才能讓農民了解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。比方一般人的保險，不管是壽險或者是產險，也是經過很長時間的溝通，然後慢慢讓民眾能夠接受。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：農業保險這樣新的概念，從110年開始推動到現在，其實也就大概是四年、五年不到的時間，所以我們希望這過程當中，農業部能夠加緊腳步，因為本席也認為農業保險是一件好的事情，不能只靠政府的天災救助來解決農業的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們也希望能夠透過民間市場辦理農業保險的方式，讓臺灣的農業更為茁壯，然後讓農民能夠得到更大的保障。這過程當中我們就希望農業部有更紮實、更強大的力量去推動，讓農民能夠真正知道農業保險對他們的重要性。我剛剛特別提到這個部分，20.7%這個數字感覺很漂亮，可是細部來看的時候，事實上是很不足的，尤其禽流感的部分，數字就更低了，所以我們希望部長針對農業保險推廣能夠更加緊動作，讓農民能夠真正了解，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我想我們會努力朝保單的……跟委員報告，我一直強調，我不會去追求保單的數量增加，我會去要求保單的品質提高。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳部長駿季：讓每一個保單都有很多人投保，很多人投保以後，保費風險分擔就會變低了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：有大數法則之後才能夠真正得到保險的價值跟功效。"],["陳部長駿季：對，保險才能夠達到它的效益，這個是我的目標。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，理解。我想請教部長，今年整個紅火蟻相關的防治預算大概有多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：將近三千萬左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：將近三千萬，去年其實有3,200萬，我想問琉璃蟻有沒有防治經費？就是琉璃蟻的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有琉璃蟻的防治經費。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有防治經費嘛！為什麼沒有防治經費呢？"],["陳部長駿季：最主要是琉璃蟻本身不直接危害作物。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就認為牠不是農業害蟲，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：因為牠不是農業害蟲，所以我們沒辦法編相關的經費。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我想請教一下，因為2019年農業部有針對琉璃蟻的危害範圍……當時講出來的狀態是9個縣市、24個鄉鎮都有琉璃蟻的危害範圍，我想問有沒有最新的數字？最新的數字範圍是多大？"],["陳部長駿季：我現在手邊沒有這個資料，後續再提供給委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：之後再給本席。這裡面很特殊，因為新竹市也在琉璃蟻的肆虐範圍當中，針對這個部分很多民眾投書或檢舉。我們看到農業部，因為你剛剛提到牠不是一個農業害蟲，所以沒有辦法去做太多的動作；另外就是環境部認為琉璃蟻其實是從農業來的，他覺得應該是農業部在管，所以環境部也不管；衛福部認為琉璃蟻沒有傳染疾病，所以他們也不管；琉璃蟻就變成一個大家都不管的情況。本席認為農業部是不是應該把這個工作接起來，而不是各部會不斷地踢皮球。針對琉璃蟻，目前的狀態是給誘劑，農業部建議的是用糖水加硼砂調成誘劑，去處理這個問題，可是這個東西對於蜂農是有影響的，所以我們認為如果農業部還是不把琉璃蟻當作農業害蟲，這個事情其實沒有解，牠就繼續去肆虐，擴大更大的範圍。本席希望部長能夠把這個事情擔當起來，因為牠是不是屬於農業害蟲，其實是定義的問題，就像目前琉璃蟻的誘劑，有些學者就說它對蜂農是產生影響的，所以這部分是不是請部長把琉璃蟻當作一件事情來對待？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員報告，以我的立場，我們既然已經看到一個問題，雖然就農業部的定義來講，牠不屬於農業害蟲，但是相對的，牠的確在田裡造成一些困擾，特別是蚜蟲跟薊馬，我們可以透過這個方式防治。我很願意針對這個工作能夠跟衛福部正式啟動跨部會的協調，這不能只有農業部做，因為涉及居家環境，而且是要用區域防治的概念，用區域防治的概念才有可能把牠降到最低，所以這個部分我想我願意啟動跨部會的平臺，而不是互相推諉，說不是我的、不是你的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝部長，我覺得這是很正面的態度來面對這個問題，我們也希望後續有一些進度再隨時跟本辦公室回報，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：最後一個問題就是現在對美關稅貿易談判，我想特別關注一個狀態就是茶葉，臺灣目前茶葉輸美大概占整個臺灣出口的三成左右。"],["陳部長駿季：大概是31%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，31%。我們看到整個茶葉的狀態，會發現茶葉的出口其實是用拼配的方式在處理，但是拼配和所謂的洗產地，我們要怎麼定義？部長可不可以簡單說明？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實臺灣最強的就是拼配技術，但是我們為了讓國產茶本身具有一定的認同，所以要標示為臺灣茶的時候，一定要是百分之百用臺灣的茶葉，不能用拼配的方式。第二個部分是，當出口有超過55%做實質轉型，可以掛我們的產地，但標示裡面還是要標茶葉的來源國，這樣就不會被認為是洗產地。如果只標臺灣茶去出口，但是裡面可能混到越南茶、混到其他國家的茶，就會被誤認為洗產地，如果誠實標示，就不會這樣子了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，你提到這個點，其實本席可以理解，就是臺灣茶要百分之百才能夠標示為臺灣茶。不過我覺得有個概念是英國茶，英國並沒有產茶葉，可是英國的茶葉風行全世界，他們其實某一個部分確實也用拼配的方式在做所有後續的製造跟程序。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：本席也希望藉由這樣的關稅談判過程，讓臺灣拼配茶的定義更清楚，然後讓臺灣的茶農在跟國外做相關出口的時候，能夠有比較好的對待，在這邊就請部長針對拼配茶能夠好好做一個新的定義，然後讓我們的國際貿易對象也能夠理解臺灣的政策，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，針對拼配茶本身怎麼樣有利於國內拼配茶的外銷，這部分我們會來努力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為目前看起來，臺灣目前國產的茶葉其實已經沒有進口的茶葉多了，所以拼配茶肯定是臺灣茶葉業者很關注的部分，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","郭國文","陳亭妃","李坤城","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","陳超明","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","李彥秀","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","呂玉玲","林思銘","羅明才","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員邱\n若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145901_00002"}}},{"id":"162413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5dae1827dbf6c9dd6010ace42a7ed4b4fab53e924c0ec1f3738a47179c06521c587096f49c00dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:26:15 - 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謝謝委員那的確就是說針對無人機去噴藥的時候有可能去污染到林田那其實我們農業部在無人機第一個無人機噴藥的時候它必須要有雙證照"},{"start":102.061,"end":128.033,"text":"必須要取得技術上的認可第二個就是說我們已經有相關的一個規範包括操作的規範那更重要就是我們建設的全台灣的RTK那所謂RTK就是無人機它可以定位到幾公分的距離那這樣噴的時候就不容易外到其他的林田去啦那第三個就是萬一有噴到的時候我們有一個所謂的鑑定的一個制度"},{"start":128.953,"end":140.919,"text":"能夠來確定有鑑定的制度是有一個鑑定的制度因為我們不希望說這個事情經常發生而且如何去避免農田飄落林田發生糾紛這個事情的發生部長"},{"start":144.961,"end":160.34,"text":"你有沒有說更好的方式我想我們現在也在積極推動因為畢竟我們現在目前雖然在推有機專區但是有部分的有機點它是跟傳統點在一起的所以在那種臨界地的時候我們都推動它有保護行的概念"},{"start":161.201,"end":179.624,"text":"就是說它雙邊都有一些保護行就是它不要在那裡用無人機去噴那這樣的話無人機如果沒有飛的依照我們的規定在珠貫4公尺以下的話它的風速在3米以下的話就不會飄散所以有保護行的制度它會避免它的臨天的污染這個很重要啦那個部長"},{"start":180.848,"end":207.389,"text":"美國今年4月宣布將對各國實施對等關稅後來又宣布90天的暫緩期那美方要求各國在6月4號以前要提最佳的提案在7月8號以前這些關稅暫緩期限到期前完成談判對此總統賴清德曾表示說我國將展開以零關稅為基礎"},{"start":209.991,"end":236.308,"text":"對美談判那許多的農民認為台灣稻米產業認為將會因此受到嚴重的衝擊陸續有農民上街抗議認為開放美國稻米零關稅進口將犧牲台灣這個糧食的安全那陳部長你也說不會發生進口稻米零關稅那我請問這是對國人的承諾嗎"},{"start":237.959,"end":254.833,"text":"我跟委員報告現在台美的關稅正在談判中那談判的細節我不方便講但是你有講啊你說不會發生啊我還沒講完就是以農業的立場來講我們一定是在確保糧食安全的前提之下確保產業永續的前提之下"},{"start":255.433,"end":270.041,"text":"那我也承諾就是說我盡我們農業部的可能我們絕對不會讓稻米在這一波的關稅裡面去處理到零關稅甚至於我們都不希望稻米現在的制度而做任何的調整這是我們農業部的一個立場"},{"start":271.001,"end":284.839,"text":"好 那政策要是跳票誰負責請問農業部你除了今年五月初農業部有派員赴美參與對美關稅的談判外後續六月還有再進一步磋商談判嗎"},{"start":285.936,"end":302.555,"text":"不過我想整個台北的談判是考慮到因為不只是農業不只是工業農業有非常非常多的品項所以我們考慮的是整個農業的最大的利益而且是農業能夠跟美國貿易雙贏的政策之下去處理的所有的談判的一個細節"},{"start":303.416,"end":317.576,"text":"但是到目前為止其實整個關稅的談判如在物理看花美國講的對講的是我們這個要去爭取到目前為止人民真的還看不到"},{"start":319.386,"end":342.682,"text":"那個陳部長日本近年來有米荒現象那台灣米2025年外銷日本預估全年銷量會超過1萬公噸但有日本民眾投書媒體分析台灣米出口日本市場的現象該名日本民眾認為日本米荒風波過去價格回落"},{"start":343.837,"end":364.217,"text":"哪怕台灣米與日本米的售價相當日本消費者會主動選擇台灣米的可能性能相當有限那我請問農業部台灣米外銷日本的銷量增加從長遠來看曇花一現還是可以穩定的成長你的看法呢"},{"start":364.577,"end":392.714,"text":"我剛才就提到了就是我們現在削日本的米的策略絕對不是因為它短期的短缺而大量的去推廣我們要建立的是整個完整的供應鏈我們要建立的是透過我們的品牌透過我們的品質跟美國的通路做鏈接去達到特定族群的市場那這樣的一個市場那個機制不管你未來日本稻米本身是不是回穩我們都還是能夠進攻一定的市場這才是我們的目標好"},{"start":393.675,"end":404.03,"text":"那個部長 會後你就提供本席書面資料說明112年到114年台灣米外銷日本政府有沒有補助相關的預算 有沒有"},{"start":404.929,"end":428.889,"text":"我想我們有很多相關的行銷還有包括品牌包括產地包括像極端產區有沒有我們希望是用氣做極端產區那這方面我們都有一些協助你會後給本席一份資料我們再提供資料那個部長本席持續關注這個豬肉的價格民眾反映豬肉價格還在高檔6月9日新北市毛豬的交易行情為例"},{"start":430.31,"end":457.673,"text":"每公斤102.72元行政院穩定物價小組關注17項重要的民生物質其中豬肉漲幅最高來到6.9%創14個月的新高而中華民國養豬協會理事長認為目前的豬價1公斤破百元是合理的價格喊話行政院物價穩定小組不要出手"},{"start":459.454,"end":483.02,"text":"豬肉破百價格請問農業部端午過後豬肉價格是否可以回檔你的看法呢我們現在評估認為現在的豬肉價格在95到100之間是一個合理的價格因為現在目前的豬的飼料跟成本跟幾年前都不可以相比我們的目標是希望我們農業的生產能夠持續的生產國產的豬肉那你認為會不會回檔"},{"start":488.43,"end":494.837,"text":"我想就在這個區間在跑在跑還是會維持到中秋因為目前農業部任認為的這個豬肉合理價格因為你認為應該是多少才是合理價格"},{"start":501.038,"end":518.456,"text":"我們昨天大概是99塊已經不會再帶超過100塊只是短時間一天的那個那我們希望是控制在95到100之間但是要是超過農業部會採取哪些豬肉價格調節的措施我想批發價格會跟你的"},{"start":519.477,"end":528.265,"text":"批發的投訴是有關的所以當他的價格已經有些偏離的時候我們就會進場調節他的批發的投訴進場的數量那這樣的話就能夠讓他的價格穩定在95到100之間好"},{"start":534.81,"end":556.157,"text":"最後一個議題2024年颱風接二連三侵台造成許多榮損以香蕉為例颱風造成整體香蕉產量大幅的減少那香蕉價格屢創新高甚至100多塊喔一斤喔不是一公斤喔那目前農業部目前的整個香蕉的產量以價格"},{"start":557.674,"end":582.959,"text":"有沒有回穩現在價格已經回穩了齁回穩 以前齁我去買的時候是20塊一斤啦現在是差不多40塊因為我常年都有在吃 昨天大概是25塊左右25塊 一斤喔市場價才25塊啊 差不多啦它那個比這個高啦 高很多啦114年度這個香蕉收入保險投保的情況如何"},{"start":584.4,"end":609.344,"text":"我們香蕉的投保人數我可能會有再提供給劉先生你們要提啊 這個你們其實要去關注啦是不是有比113年成長 今年有多少香蕉種植面積有參加投保大概是為時 那我跟委員報告因為香蕉的收入保險是基準產量乘以價格那因為它量少 但是量少的比例比價格高的 漲幅有沒有"},{"start":609.984,"end":638.644,"text":"因為價格漲幅太高了所以兩個一層的時候變成保險就不容易理賠到或是理賠的比較少那這個部分我們也在關切也在看看說保單有沒有可以調整的空間部長交農部參加這個相交收入表現的主要原因為何政府如何讓農友來體認農作物保險支出也是農業生產成本的一環是我認為這個很重要啊"},{"start":639.886,"end":657.386,"text":"我想我們會在根基因為香蕉比較特殊因為香蕉一個園子裡面有當年生的有第二年生的它是比較沒有一致性然後香蕉從高雄屏東到南投的部分它的產地跟價格區間也比較大"},{"start":657.967,"end":672.808,"text":"所以我們現在用區域型的保險看看可不可以讓他更集中我們的數據比較好調查這樣的話農民獲得的肥也比較好我希望農業部在這方面多去加強去要求跟控管謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":165,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時26分）謝謝，謝謝主席，與會的各部會官員。請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員德福：部長你好。因為農村人力不足，為解決缺工的問題，政府除了積極推動以農業機具來替代人力外，其中推動遙控無人機噴藥、施肥的比例逐漸增加，無人機噴藥通常省時、省錢、省力、省人力，農民不用暴露在高濃度的農藥環境裡面，但偶爾有污染鄰田的爭議發生。部分農民施行有機耕作或無農藥、無施肥的自然農法，卻因為鄰田使用無人機噴灑農藥施肥而受到影響，污染到自家的作物。對此，農業部對於無人機噴灑農藥施肥，如何避免污染使用有機農法或無農藥的這些鄰田，有沒有一些配套的措施？請教部長。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。的確無人機噴藥的時候有可能污染到鄰田，其實農業部在無人機……第一個，無人機噴藥的時候，它必須要有雙證照，必須要取得技術上的認可。第二個就是我們已經有相關的規範，包括操作的規範，更重要就是我們鑑識全臺灣的RTK，所謂的RTK就是無人機可以定位到幾公分的距離，這樣噴的時候就不容易歪到鄰田。第三個就是萬一有噴到的時候，我們有一個鑑定制度，能夠來確定它……"],["林委員德福：有鑑定的制度，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，有一個鑑定的制度。"],["林委員德福：因為我們不希望這個事情經常發生。如何避免農藥飄落鄰田發生糾紛，部長，你有沒有更好的方式？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們現在也在積極推動，我們目前雖然在推有機專區，但是有部分的有機田是跟傳統田在一起的，所以在臨界地，我們都推動要有保護行的概念，就是雙邊都有一些保護行，不要在那裡用無人機去噴，無人機如果依照我們的規定飛，在株冠4公尺以下的、風速3米以下就不會飄散，所以有保護行的制度可以避免鄰田被污染。"],["林委員德福：這個很重要啦！部長，美國今年4月宣布將對各國實施對等關稅，後來又宣布90天的暫緩期，美方要求各國在6月4號以前要提最佳的提案，在7月8號以前、關稅暫緩期限到期前完成談判。對此，總統賴清德曾表示我國將展開以零關稅為基礎的對美談判，許多農民認為臺灣稻米產業將會因此受到嚴重衝擊，陸續有農民上街抗議，認為開放美國稻米零關稅進口，將犧牲臺灣糧食安全。陳部長，你也說不會發生進口稻米零關稅，請問這是對國人的承諾嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在臺美的關稅正在談判中，談判的細節我不方便講……"],["林委員德福：但是你有講啊……"],["陳部長駿季：但是以農業部的立場……"],["林委員德福：你說不會發生啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我還沒講完。以農業部的立場來講，我們一定是在確保糧食安全的前提之下、確保產業永續的前提之下，我也承諾盡農業部所能，我們絕對不會讓稻米在這一波的關稅裡面去處理到零關稅，甚至不希望稻米現在的制度做任何的調整，這是農業部的立場。"],["林委員德福：好，那政策要是跳票，誰負責？請問農業部，除了今年5月初農業部有派員赴美參與對美關稅的談判外，後續6月還有再進一步磋商談判嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：整個臺美的談判是考慮到……因為不只是農業、不只是工業，農業有非常非常多的品項，所以我們考慮的是整個農業的最大利益，而且是能夠跟美國貿易雙贏的政策之下去處理所有談判的細節。"],["林委員德福：但是到目前為止，其實整個關稅談判如在霧裡看花，美國講得對、講得是，我們要去爭取，到目前為止，人民真的還看不到啦！","陳部長，日本近年來有米荒現象，臺灣米2025年外銷日本預估全年銷量會超過1萬公噸，但有日本民眾投書媒體分析臺灣米出口日本市場的現象，該名日本民眾認為日本米荒風波過去，價格回落，哪怕臺灣米與日本米的售價相當，日本消費者會主動選擇臺灣米的可能性仍相當有限。請問農業部，臺灣米外銷日本的銷量增加，從長遠來看，是曇花一現還是可以穩定成長，你的看法呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才就提到了，就是我們現在銷日本的米的策略，絕對不是因為它短期的短缺而去大量推廣，我們要建立的是整個完整的供應鏈，我們要建立的是透過我們的品牌、透過我們的品質，跟日本的通路鏈結打到特定族群的市場，這樣的市場機制不管未來日本稻米本身是不是回穩，我們都還是能夠進攻一定的市場，這才是我們的目標。"],["林委員德福：部長，會後你就提供本席書面資料說明112年到114年臺灣米外銷日本，政府有沒有補助相關的預算，有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有很多相關的行銷，還有包括品牌、產地，包括像集團產區，我們希望用契作集團產區，這方面我們都有一些協助。"],["林委員德福：你會後給本席一份資料。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們再提供資料。"],["林委員德福：部長，本席持續關注豬肉價格，民眾反映豬肉價格還在高檔，以6月9日新北市毛豬交易行情為例，每公斤102.72元，行政院穩定物價小組關注17項重要的民生物資，其中豬肉漲幅最高，來到6.9%，創14個月新高，而中華民國養豬協會理事長認為目前豬價1公斤破百元是合理價格，喊話行政院物價穩定小組不要出手。豬肉價格破百，請問農業部，端午過後豬肉價格是否可以回檔？你的看法呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們評估認為現在的豬肉價格在95到100元之間是一個合理的價格，因為目前豬的飼料及成本與幾年前都不可以相比，我們的目標是希望農業能夠持續生產國產豬肉，以優質豬肉提供給消費者。"],["林委員德福：那你認為會不會回檔嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我想就在這個區間在跑，在95到100元……"],["林委員德福：在跑？還是會維持到中秋？目前農業部認為豬肉價格應該多少才合理？"],["陳部長駿季：昨天大概是99塊，已經不會再……超過100塊只是短時間，一天的……我們希望是控制在95到100元之間。"],["林委員德福：但是要是超過，農業部會採取哪些豬肉價格的調節措施？"],["陳部長駿季：批發價格跟批發頭數是有關的，所以當價格已經有一些偏離的時候，我們就會進場調節批發頭數、進場數量，這樣的話就能夠讓價格穩定在95到100元之間。"],["林委員德福：最後一個議題，2024年颱風接二連三侵臺，造成許多農損，以香蕉為例，颱風造成整體香蕉產量大幅減少，香蕉價格屢創新高，甚至於一斤一百多塊，不是一公斤！目前整個香蕉的產量與價格有沒有回穩？"],["陳部長駿季：現在價格已經回穩了。"],["林委員德福：以前我去買的時候是1斤20塊，現在差不多40塊，因為我常年都有在吃。"],["陳部長駿季：昨天大概是25塊左右。"],["林委員德福：25塊1斤？"],["陳部長駿季：市場價是25塊，差不多啦！"],["林委員德福：比這個高很多啦！114年度香蕉收入保險投保的情況如何？"],["陳部長駿季：香蕉的投保人數可能會後再提供給委員。"],["林委員德福：你們要提供。這個其實你們要去關注，是不是有比113年成長？今年有多少香蕉種植面積有參加投保？"],["陳部長駿季：大概是維持。我跟委員報告，因為香蕉的收入保險是基準產量乘以價格，因為它量少，但是量少的比例比價格漲幅……因為價格漲幅太高了，所以兩個一乘的時候變成保險就不容易理賠到，或是理賠的比較少，這個部分我們也在關切，看保單有沒有可以調整的空間。"],["林委員德福：部長，蕉農不參加香蕉收入保險的主要原因為何？政府如何讓農友體認農作物保險支出也是農業生產成本的一環？我認為這個很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再……因為香蕉比較特殊，香蕉一個園子裡面有當年生的、有第二年生的，比較沒有一致性。香蕉從高雄、屏東到南投，它的產地跟價格區間也比較大，所以我們現在用區域型的保險看看可不可以讓它更集中，我們的數據比較好調查，這樣的話，農民獲得的理賠也比較高。"],["林委員德福：好啦！我希望農業部在這方面多加強要求跟控管，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：會，謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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換講重建戶的步驟啊他也不會想要去投保所以有沒有可能就是說我覺得主管機關你們應該是要去做一個所謂的定期檢討補助比例"},{"start":206.289,"end":223.675,"text":"這樣的一個檢討機制檢討原則如果不同意修法那是不是有一些動態滾動性的調整這些檢討甚至說我們要去讓農民更清楚所謂的農民農業保險對農民的保障這個區塊我認為農業部也應該要加緊腳步因為其實人都會去做人壽保險更何況是去做作物"},{"start":232.458,"end":252.161,"text":"那這一次的稻米欠收空爆彈的事件其實對農民來講他就了解到保險的重要性所以很多農民他是投保基本型的他其實沒有去做所謂的加強型的所以那一天我們到大寮到美濃去跟農民做對談的時候農民就會知道說原來還有一個加強型"},{"start":253.082,"end":278.834,"text":"所以他的補助是會增加的他的理賠金額是會增加的我覺得像這一些不管是滾動性的檢討或者是宣導應該都要加強就是在農業部來說你們應該都要加強讓農民理解這件事情很多人都會遇到天災的時候才會知道說保險的重要性但是還沒有遇到天災之前其實我們都應該要加強宣導你同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":279.687,"end":308.081,"text":"好 謝委員也提醒 我想宣導一定要再更積極的去做那另外的滾動式的檢討其實我們最近就在研議就是因為我剛才說的我們希望保險是一個長期性每年都能夠投保而不是好像又跟天氣對賭那如果我們在考慮說如果它連續的對它從事的作物連續保的話我們會給予保費的優惠那其實保費的優惠的概念其實就是政府增加補助的比例啦"},{"start":308.681,"end":323.99,"text":"所以用這種保費的優惠的概念去取代我們政府的保費提高所以不敢你剛講的這個概念其實也是一種滾動式的檢討啦我不直接取消就是我不直接說你全部的保費都是政府出但是你如果連續投保"},{"start":326.232,"end":332.297,"text":"那我政府會給你再更多的一些優惠或者是鼓勵我覺得像這樣子的滾動式檢討是不是能夠就這個修法的層面上來說農業部能不能整理一個你們的相對應的政策出來到時候我們如果再進入主條的時候其實可以有更深入的一些討論"},{"start":347.352,"end":373.364,"text":"好 謝謝委員給我們這樣機會我想在正式主條討論的時候我們會把更精進的滾動檢討的機制跟可能涵蓋的方向也讓委員了解所以你大概也知道說哪一些品項包括你要不要用品項去做分類你要做怎麼樣的分類標準補助標準或者是什麼我覺得可能你們內心大概也都有做一些評估報告可能在我們在進入主條的時候可能這個要請農業部來提出來好 我們一定到時候會提供"},{"start":376.986,"end":404.522,"text":"那接下来我要跟部长您提到最近大概你们也知道昨天傍晚我看到农业部也发布一个讯息日本米的米价飙升所以呢这对台湾来讲是一个很好的契机我看到你们的报告台湾的米销日本单单在今年的二月份它的涨幅是700%多所以整体来说台湾米销到日本去"},{"start":406.243,"end":430.52,"text":"應該是有大幅的競爭力的對不對好 這個是你們整理出來的這個年增率喔今年的二月份年增率是768%喔是部長我最近有送你這個你有收到嗎應該有吧你如果沒有收到應該不曉得是不是被幕僚偷吃掉了齁這是我們美濃優質好米美濃147米現在正在盛產"},{"start":432.506,"end":453.913,"text":"我就在想說其實我們一直在講說這個公糧補助啊什麼的我們一直在講我們要鼓勵農民種好米種了好米之後你這樣遇到像日本像鄰近國家有這種糧食荒的時候其實我們的米就可以在這個時候去外銷出去日本買得到"},{"start":454.873,"end":475.772,"text":"部長您看一下這個照片其實日本是買得到台灣米的依照我們現在現行的這個數字上來看但是呢這個台灣米它沒有品種它沒有很明確的出現說比如說它這個米是哪裡來的它只有告訴你是台灣的米但是比如說像我們美濃的147米"},{"start":477.293,"end":498.514,"text":"他有沒有可能我們未來有一個品牌化可以銷到日本去讓大家知道說你在日本買到的是高雄的好米是池上的好米是哪裡的好米有沒有可能去做這樣的一個去做這樣的一個政策宣導或者是說做外銷的這樣的一個推動"},{"start":499.315,"end":524.307,"text":"我想委員提醒的齁 我非常認同 而且我覺得也應該這麼做如果說我們我們削刀日本米都只是寫台灣產的米那就不能凸顯地方的特色所以我們現在一直積極能夠讓我們產地的農會也好 或者比較大的集團產區的話我們會協助他做品牌的建構 然後去對接對方的通路這樣的話就能夠直接把我們地區的這些米的品牌直接帶上架"},{"start":525.087,"end":550.496,"text":"這個方式我想我們會積極來推動其實過去現在時代已經在轉變部長你可能會知道過去台灣人到日本去旅行的時候會很習慣帶一包日本米回來大家都說日本米很好吃現在已經不一樣了現在是台灣人去日本會習慣把台灣米帶過去給日本的朋友分享那當然這樣子帶出關會有一些簡易的問題這個就"},{"start":552.256,"end":573.948,"text":"後話啦 這個簡易的部分就後話再談但是就是說台灣米現在已經受到市場上的青睞但我覺得就農業部來講我們應該要更努力的去推展我們所謂的台灣自由品牌米不管是池上 不管是美濃不管是其他的任何的地方"},{"start":575.309,"end":593.641,"text":"優質好米這件事情我們都應該要盡全力的來推動好嗎我想跟委員報告我們不能因為只是日本現在缺米我們趁機會把米外銷我們希望說米的外銷到日本是一個持續性的工作他必須建立一個完整的供應鏈必須建立相關的品牌跟通路的系統"},{"start":594.441,"end":607.595,"text":"我們會朝向這個方向來努力那未來如果日本米它本身的供應量還恢復穩定的時候我們還是能夠持續的去供應我們的U子米到它的高端的市場其實我覺得台灣米是有競爭力的啦我認為"},{"start":609.617,"end":627.373,"text":"日本你的這個米荒解除之後大家如果吃到台灣米吃到好吃大家也會回來買所以我覺得我們自己的品牌建立這件事情是很重要的這個我期待請農業部能夠趕快的去做相關的規劃"},{"start":628.874,"end":655.08,"text":"那我順便趁這個機會跟委員說明也許讓我們的消費者知道如果說我們帶米要到日本去送禮的時候只要是6公斤以下的話你可以直接在機場那邊檢疫就可以了我們在機場有一個檢疫的服務不需要說事前要去做那個所謂的檢疫證的取得在機場可以有一個通路通關可以直接處理那日本帶回來的呢"},{"start":655.874,"end":663.466,"text":"日本帶回來的相對的應該在日本那邊我覺得你們可能要把那個流程讓大家知道也許在機場的時候我們會盡量的宣導好 謝謝現在請林德福委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":130,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時15分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長好。部長，針對我們今天要談的農業保險法修正條文的部分，剛剛您的報告裡面其實有談到，保費是對於農民風險管理的對價，補助過高可能怕會降低他自主管理的動力，你們的報告列了幾點。","第二是這個法條其實是在109年才三讀通過，距今差不多5年，而且在實務上已經有子法跟行政裁量權去做這些彈性調整。部長剛剛講的這些部分我是同意，但是有沒有想過現在有一些作物或是品項的補助已經超過了100%，如果你又不修法的話，未來在衡平上面會不會產生極大的落差？這一點我是不是能夠請部長來說明一下？比如水稻收入保險，雖然不是強制，但是水稻收入保險的基本型，基本上補助比例已經算是100%，除非你要投保加強型，你自己要再多付費15%左右。如果是這樣，強制保險就不算在此列，像豬隻強制保險的補助當然也是100%。部長，我再請教一下，您剛剛講的這些部分，有沒有一些彈性調整的可能性？或是你在衡平性上有沒有再去做一些思考？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提問。我先說明一下水稻基本型的保險，它是由原來的天然災害整個移轉過來的，我們利用天然災害過去幾年受災的金額，直接移到保險的額度，然後農民就不用再出錢了，所以它屬於一種類似強制型的保險，不需要出保費的這種概念。其他的像豬隻、有一些比較大的政策型保險，在原來的法裡面就有所謂排除在外的部分，這是第一個說明。","第二個說明，委員剛才也提到一個重點，就是保費的補助是一件事情，但是我們怎麼樣讓保單的設計更合理、更有利，才能夠讓農民有意願投保，當投保的農民越多的時候，風險分散越廣，保費就會越低，那才是我們需要更積極去處理的。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果就這一方面，我想整個宣導跟配套似乎還是不太夠，很多農民對於……我其實不太贊成全額補助保費，這樣對農民來講，會沒有投保的概念跟想法，他會覺得反正都是政府的補助，也不會想要去投保，所以主管機關應該要有定期檢討補助比例這樣的檢討機制、檢討原則。如果不同意修法，是不是有一些動態滾動性的調整、檢討，甚至讓農民更清楚農業保險對農民的保障？我認為農業部在這個區塊也應該要加緊腳步，因為人都會去保人壽保險，更何況是作物。","這一次稻米欠收、空包彈的事件，其實對農民來講，就了解到保險的重要性。因為很多農民是投保基本型的，其實沒有去做加強型，所以那天我們到大寮、美濃跟農民對談，農民就會知道原來還有加強型，補助、理賠金額是會增加的。我覺得像這些，不管是滾動性檢討或是宣導，農業部應該都要加強，讓農民理解這件事情。很多人都是遇到天災的時候，才會知道保險的重要性，但是還沒有遇到天災之前，其實我們都應該要加強宣導，你同意我的看法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，我想宣導一定要再更積極地去做。另外，滾動式的檢討，其實我們最近就在研議，就像我剛才說的，我們希望保險是長期性、每年都能夠投保，而不是好像跟天氣對賭。我們在考慮如果他對從事的作物連續保，會給予保費的優惠，保費優惠的概念就是政府增加補助的比例，所以用這種保費優惠的概念去取代政府的保費提高，這樣會比較好一點。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，您剛剛講的這個概念，其實也是一種滾動式的檢討，我不直接說你全部的保費都是政府出，但是你連續投保，政府會給你更多的一些優惠或鼓勵……"],["陳部長駿季：對，類似這樣子的方式。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得像這樣子的滾動式檢討，就這個修法的層面上來說，農業部能不能整理一個相對應的政策出來，到時候進入逐條討論可以有更深入的一些討論，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員給我們這樣的機會。我想在正式逐條討論的時候，我們會把更精進滾動檢討的機制跟可能涵蓋的方向，也讓委員了解。"],["邱委員議瑩：因為也實施五年了，所以你大概也知道說哪一些品項，包括你要不要用品項去分類、你要做怎麼樣的分類標準、補助標準或者是什麼，我覺得你們內心大概也都有做一些評估報告，我們在進入逐條的時候，這個可能要請農業部提出來。"],["陳部長駿季：我們到時候一定會提供。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，接下來我要跟部長提到，最近你們大概也知道，昨天傍晚我看到農業部也發布一個訊息，日本米的米價飆升，這對臺灣來講是一個很好的契機。我看到你們的報告，臺灣的米銷日本，單單在今年2月份的漲幅是百分之七百多，所以整體來說，臺灣米銷到日本去，應該是有大幅的競爭力了，對不對？好，這個是你們整理出來的年增率，今年2月份年增率是768%。部長，我最近有送你這個，你有收到嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：應該有吧！"],["邱委員議瑩：你如果沒有收到不曉得是不是被幕僚偷吃掉了？這是我們美濃優質好米，美濃147米，現在正在盛產。我就在想說，其實我們一直在講公糧補助什麼的、要鼓勵農民種好米，種了好米之後，遇到像日本、像鄰近國家有這種糧食荒的時候，其實我們的米就可以在這個時候外銷出去。日本買得到，部長看一下這個照片，其實日本是買得到臺灣米的，依照現在的數字來看。但是這個臺灣米沒有品種，沒有很明確地出現比如這個米是哪裡來的，它只有告訴你是臺灣的米，但是比如美濃的147米，它有沒有可能未來可以品牌化銷到日本去，讓大家知道你在日本買到的是高雄的好米、是池上的好米、是哪裡的好米，有沒有可能去做這樣的政策宣導或者外銷的推動？"],["陳部長駿季：我想委員提醒的我非常認同，而且我覺得也應該這麼做，如果我們銷到日本的米都只是寫臺灣產的米，那就不能凸顯地方的特色，所以不管產地的農會也好或是比較大的集團產區，我們會協助它做品牌的建構，對接對方的通路，這樣的話就能夠直接把這些地區米的品牌直接帶上架，這個方式我們會積極來推動。"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！其實現在時代已經在轉變，部長可能知道，過去臺灣人到日本去旅行的時候會很習慣帶一包日本米回來，大家都說日本米很好吃；現在已經不一樣了，現在是臺灣人去日本，會習慣把臺灣米帶過去給日本的朋友分享，當然這樣子帶出關會有一些檢疫的問題，這個就後話，檢疫的部分就後話再談，但是就是臺灣米現在已經受到市場上的青睞，我覺得就農業部來講，應該要更努力地去推展所謂的臺灣自有品牌米，不管是池上、不管是美濃、不管是其他的任何地方，優質好米這件事情我們都應該要盡全力地來推動，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員報告，我們不能因為只是日本現在缺米，趁機把米外銷，我們希望米外銷到日本是一個持續性的工作，它必須建立一個完整的供應鏈，必須建立相關的品牌跟通路的系統，我們會朝向這個方向來努力。未來如果日本米本身的供應量恢復穩定的時候，我們還是能夠持續地去供應我們的優質米到它的高端市場，這是我們的目標。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實我覺得臺灣米是有競爭力的。"],["陳部長駿季：是，絕對有。"],["邱委員議瑩：我認為日本米的米荒解除之後，大家如果吃到臺灣米覺得好吃，大家還是會回來買，所以我覺得建立我們自己的品牌這件事情是很重要的，我期待、請農業部能夠趕快去做相關的規劃跟發展。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我順便趁這個機會跟委員說明，也讓消費者知道，如果要帶米到日本去送禮的時候，只要是6公斤以下，直接在機場檢疫就可以了，我們在機場有檢疫服務，不需要事前取得檢疫證，在機場有一個通關可以直接處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：那日本帶回來的呢？"],["陳部長駿季：日本帶回來的相對地應該在日本那邊……"],["邱委員議瑩：應該也是要吧！"],["陳部長駿季：日本那邊應該知道。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得你們可能要把那個流程稍微整理一下，讓民眾也清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會把那個流程讓大家知道，也許在機場的時候，我們會儘量宣導。"],["邱委員議瑩：OK，好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請林德福委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","郭國文","陳亭妃","李坤城","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","陳超明","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","李彥秀","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","呂玉玲","林思銘","羅明才","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員邱\n若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145901_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}