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非常感謝我們各位黨團的代表還有我們行政機關的代表"},{"start":1814.127,"end":1837.665,"text":"那我先跟大家介紹一下目前各個黨團出席的代表從我左手邊開始中國國民黨的羅志強委員王玉民委員台灣民眾黨的張其凱委員黃珊珊委員不好意思後面還有個鄭天才委員不好意思那右手邊的是民主金服黨的黨團代表鍾嘉斌委員我們今天列席的官員"},{"start":1838.866,"end":1862.915,"text":"有行政院的秘書長龔明新那龔秘書長說他另有要務所以這場協商他大概就參加15到20分鐘嘛我如果理解沒有錯誤的話那我們時間計算方便起見就到1點20分好不好我們1點20分以後因為龔秘書長另有要工讓他先離席由常務副秘書長李國新到時候再來代表行政院"},{"start":1863.795,"end":1876.626,"text":"那行政院主計總處主計廠陳淑芝財政部政務次長阮清華內政部常務次長吳唐安那以及法務部政務次長黃士傑那個黃士傑次長人還沒到是不是是嗎"},{"start":1883.723,"end":1901.297,"text":"什麼在路上馬上到好沒有關係那我們反正會議就繼續進行那今天協商的主旨是我們要處理有院會有院會抽出禁夫惡毒以後由台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1903.338,"end":1926.706,"text":"來召集協商也就是台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的建請行政院主計總署因依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案通案刪減之決議一直由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整並立即將一般性的補助款足而撥付給地方政府"},{"start":1927.526,"end":1945.442,"text":"那這一個組決議本來是在6月3號的時候由院會交付財政委員會審查那不過在6月4號財政委員會雖然有排審但並沒有實質的審議這個議案所以在6月6號的時候我們就從委員會抽出"},{"start":1946.122,"end":1958.661,"text":"禁負二讀,那在二讀的時候,有院會交付黨團協商,那由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商我先把今天協商的主旨以及原由啊,跟大家報告"},{"start":1959.671,"end":1981.853,"text":"因為點下秘書長有要功我相信這件事情全國人民也好地方政府也好很多委員也好大家都很關心有很多議事上面各自的論述跟表達都做過了我就想為了效率起見我們是不是就以黨團為代表交互輪流的發言每位委員"},{"start":1983.234,"end":2004.383,"text":"發言的時間第一輪我們就以三分鐘為限讓行政院秘書長也有機會可以來回應各位委員他們的案子那我們首先先請提案的黨團也就是台灣民眾黨黨團來負責說明那是有哪一位負責說明有珊珊嗎好那我們請黃珊珊不好意思那個黃珊珊委員不"},{"start":2005.303,"end":2027.656,"text":"開始以前補充介紹一下那個法務部的政務次長黃士傑現在已經趕到了現場我們現在請黃珊珊委員先做代表台灣民眾黨團做說明那時間三分鐘請好的謝謝主席還有各位那個珊珊請稍微等一下我讓議事人忙一下他們今天比較手忙腳亂一點"},{"start":2038.05,"end":2065.032,"text":"還是那個要我操作嗎可以喔不好意思辛苦你了好 時間三分鐘現在開始謝謝主席還有各位立院的同仁我想這個案子的提案非常的簡單也就是立法院在通過114年的總預算的法定預算要求中央政府遵截支出才進行統刪並授權行政機關試探業務需求自行去刪減非必要的636億"},{"start":2066.593,"end":2093.217,"text":"然後主計處最近接受委員質詢回答的是說因為各部會照山洞比例較以往高所以提出了三個方案最終行政院長卓榮泰拍板刪的是一般性補助款他的方案有只對地方政府刪一般補助款還有只刪債務複習或者是以上兩者各刪一半但是看起來卓榮泰院長選擇了只刪地方政府的一般性補助款"},{"start":2093.937,"end":2109.952,"text":"這是院長做的這次決定但是他這個決定違反了立法院在刪除預算的所有的相關的意旨還有我們當時統刪的原則統刪預算不是今年才獨創過去都有統刪預算行政機關、立法機關長期都有這樣的狀況那行政機關在統刪的部分從來沒有直接刪過所謂的一般性補助款"},{"start":2119.7,"end":2144.702,"text":"那這一次的一般型補助款的刪除顯然是總統台院長針對他認為地方的補助款不是最優先最必要而且是可以隨時拋棄的東西這個我們認為說在這次的預算刪減裡面並沒有真正去落實所謂原來保障地方財政尤其是在財務法通過之後不得低於前一年度的地方補助款"},{"start":2145.282,"end":2154.236,"text":"光這幾個原則都有違反亂集的狀況另外113年的中央政府總決算就去年的總決算全年2.85兆"},{"start":2156.904,"end":2178.172,"text":"執行的結果省下了672億也就是說中央政府的預算過2.85兆他一年光沒用完的錢就達到670億他絕對不是沒有錢可以刪而需要去刪掉一般補助款所以今天我們希望這個提案能夠盡速的通過要求行政院立即將地方補助款一次撥足謝謝"},{"start":2180.751,"end":2193.863,"text":"好 那個謝謝黃珊珊委員那接下來我們是是國民黨要先還是那個民進黨要先好 那看起來要先那個請國民黨的委員那我們請王育民委員來計時三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":2195.803,"end":2220.488,"text":"好謝謝主席還有我們政府官員我想這一次這個行政院去刪除地方政府一般性補助款這個比例高達27%這樣子的一個高比例其實過去是史無前例從來沒有發生過的事情那大家知道這些地方的一般性補助款在去年的地方議會都已經是通過的預算"},{"start":2222.468,"end":2247.088,"text":"現在正在執行中結果現在行政院告訴他說你的27%被砍了沒有了那這一般性補助款事實上它關乎的是什麼很多在地方用的就是在社福在教育方面的預算特別是社福預算它其實涉及到有一些是幼兒的補助有一些是這個老人的生活今天的補助"},{"start":2247.808,"end":2265.032,"text":"弱勢佔很多的比例所以中央執政應該要苦民所苦這筆預算你砍掉的其實就是這些照顧弱勢人民的這些生活的經費我想這件事情有很多縣市首長是強烈的反彈"},{"start":2268.033,"end":2293.662,"text":"有的是走这个行政夙愿我想有多个县市已经提出行政夙愿那我想连这个绿影执政的县市首长今天也在喊苦就是觉得没有这笔钱地方政府真的是很难运作今天我们可以看到包括陈其迈市长他们也觉得这个一般性补助款应该要尽快的恢复所以在这件事情上面呢我觉得行政院不应该是"},{"start":2294.802,"end":2309.034,"text":"任意的去刪除地方的一般性補助款這個我再次強調這是史無前例那這個也違反我們整個在總預算編列立法院通過這樣的精神立法院通過的預算沒有一筆"},{"start":2309.714,"end":2326.863,"text":"是去刪除這個中央對地方的補助款所以行政院必須依法行政不應該是用這樣子的一個比較粗暴的方式來對待地方政府我想這個中央跟地方政府應該是通力合作"},{"start":2327.543,"end":2345.661,"text":"通力合作所以這個中央政府給地方政府的責任應該是支持就支持地方政府去施政然後跟他共同合作但是我們很遺憾的看到這一次行政院所採取的方式是去懲罰地方政府然後去苛扣應該要給他們的這些法定的預算"},{"start":2349.344,"end":2364.132,"text":"而造成施政上的困擾坦白講地方政府他其實也是在幫中央政府執行各項的施政那今天用這樣子的一個高強度沒有法律依據去刪除地方高達27%的這樣的一個預算我覺得這個在中華民國這個整個"},{"start":2372.346,"end":2394.301,"text":"政府治理史上是前所未見而且是個錯誤應該要修正回來所以應該要立刻補足地方政府被刪除掉的這一些一般性補助款讓地方政府可以順利的施政以上 謝謝好 謝謝王玉明委員那那個民進黨有哪位委員代表來 請鐘嘉斌委員主席 首先在程序上"},{"start":2399.997,"end":2420.845,"text":"要待會請主席或議事人員做說明因為剛剛主席在一開始就有說本案本來是排定在6月4號由6月3號的院會交付財政委員會進行審查6月4號財政委員會的召委賴世保也排定了進行審查但是剛剛主席說並沒有進行實質審查"},{"start":2422.105,"end":2436.482,"text":"那我就很疑惑了在場的黃珊珊委員本席還有我們的李昆城委員都是財政委員的委員我們當天都參與了審查甚至剛剛黃珊珊委員也說了當天審查的時候多次您剛講多次"},{"start":2437.932,"end":2465.42,"text":"我們主記長多次答詢其他委員詢問的時候說了您說的那一段話就是地方性補助款統三的時候如何如何顯見在6月4號財政委員會是有進行審查的不然我也相信張旗開委員坐在這裡他那天也參與了當天的審查至於他認不認為他的所發言是進行審查那就由張委員自己決定好那麼既然有進行審查但是呢接下來在院會的時候抽出淨富二讀"},{"start":2466.46,"end":2492.216,"text":"那麼依法我們就根據我們的立法院職權行使法第12章第70條議案交由黨團協商時由該議案之院會說明人也就是目前坐在主席上的人來所屬的黨團負責召集這也就是說今天黃委員之所以可以坐在這裡召集這個黨團協商的主要原因但是我們看到第二項"},{"start":2493.177,"end":2512.695,"text":"第二項他說各黨團指派一支代表其中一人因為審查會委員除非黨團所屬委員均非審查會委員時不再此現現在國民黨黨團跟民眾黨黨團黃珊珊委員是財政委員會是我們審查該案的所屬委員"},{"start":2514.093,"end":2535.119,"text":"但是我們在場的國民黨委員鄭天才委員當天有到財政委員參加審查但他不是財政委員的委員王一鳴委員也不是財政委員的委員所以請主席就這個部分說明一下議事人員根據我們立法院職員行使法第70條第二項那麼目前國民黨在場的審查委員是否有符合第70條第二項"},{"start":2536.519,"end":2561.589,"text":"他們應該其中一人為審查會委員那麼事實上我要強調的是說在程序上本案是由院會交付財政委員會進行審查但是在院會後來被抽出禁錮二讀但這不影響本案原來是在財政會進行審查的所以依我們的立法院職權行使法應該第七十條第二項來參與黨團協商的各黨團代表至少應有一人為財政委員"},{"start":2565.799,"end":2570.492,"text":"好 那個謝謝鄭大兵委員的高見 簡單說明一下 第一個"},{"start":2571.516,"end":2595.477,"text":"那一天財政委員會是不是有審查還是沒有審查從早上九點一開始誰在鬧場搞到後面下午人不夠有審查還是沒有審查我想立法院的IVOD全程轉播全國國民大家看得清清楚楚的我比較遺憾的事情是說當天"},{"start":2597.999,"end":2615.855,"text":"當天在那邊強力背個不讓委員會進行審查然後現在又主張委員會有審查我老實講啦事情的狀況是什麼每一個台灣公民都有眼睛自己去看全程的轉播就好了第二個"},{"start":2616.856,"end":2638.175,"text":"至於說今天中國國民黨黨團所派來的代表能不能夠代表中國國民黨黨團我們有預設立場我都尊重我都尊重那其他的委員就好好的代表自己的黨團就好了有的時候也沒有必要月主代保就管到其他黨團去派哪一位委員來這邊參與協商"},{"start":2641.198,"end":2653.886,"text":"那因為第一輪的發言已經結束因為我知道張祺凱伟似乎想要再發言那祺凱你是想先發言還是因為那個等一下秘書長他等一下1點20分就要離開了是不是先讓秘書長講個話還是你希望能夠先講話"},{"start":2657.188,"end":2671.358,"text":"主席程序問題沒有處理啊我現在說目前的黨團協商是不好意思喔我現在我現在正在舉行會議請你不要按著喇叭吼請你把你的喇叭給消掉請你尊重我的會議主席"},{"start":2672.419,"end":2700.811,"text":"請你尊重我的會議主持那一天民進黨就是透過尊重手段在杯葛財政委員會在杯葛財政委員會的審查請你尊重主席請你尊重主席沒有關係啊你們有什麼意見等一下自己回去開記者會去說明現在是我在主席黨團協商宗嘉斌委員請你不要拍桌子"},{"start":2701.751,"end":2715.96,"text":"請你不要拍桌子 鍾嘉斌委員請你不要拍桌子 李崑崇委員請你按掉喇叭你現在就要拍桌子今天民進黨的委員 聖丹沒有要好好的協商這件事情請你把你的喇叭按掉我是黨團的代表我是副書記長黨團的代表"},{"start":2732.132,"end":2733.233,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":2751.803,"end":2779.271,"text":"按照程序問題先來做處理啊請尊重主席的會議主席你不會因為你在這邊撬銷拍桌子就隨著你起舞那一天財政委員會就是這樣被你們民進黨委員搞爛的那天程序委員會從頭到尾空調完我老實跟你講你不是會議主持人你不是會議主持人"},{"start":2780.948,"end":2797.347,"text":"是 沒有錯 我現在就是按照程序在進行請中嘉賓委員不要再咆哮 不要再拍桌子尊重主席的會議主持 可以嗎好 來 請行政院秘書長龔明星針對三個黨團的立場 請回應"},{"start":2802.288,"end":2830.334,"text":"來 請拱明星秘書長發言來 請拱明星秘書長發言請我們議事領先做說明嘛把這個問題把它說明好就可以了把這個問題說明好就可以了啊來 請那個李坤城委員把你喇叭按掉我再說一次會議的主席是我會議的主席是我對 是我消音的 沒有錯來 請行政院秘書長拱明星說明"},{"start":2832.571,"end":2836.498,"text":"主席要處理程序啊來 請國民心秘書長來 請來 請秘書長"},{"start":2849.996,"end":2858.557,"text":"藝術規則藝術裡面講一下自己看一下我弄錯了你告訴我哪一條來請秘書長說明來請秘書長說明來請秘書長說明謝謝我想"},{"start":2878.168,"end":2884.837,"text":"好 我剛剛聽了說是重要的是你們自己先"},{"start":2886.911,"end":2911.578,"text":"來 請秘書長發言現在是秘書長的發言時間請你尊重會議主席的主持我剛剛已經請秘書長發言了請秘書長發言好 謝謝我想行政院絕對不是任意的事實上已經窮盡了任何的方式那所以才會決定佐檢一般性的補助是不得不的一個結果跟做法"},{"start":2912.697,"end":2938.076,"text":"那考量地方政府近年來事實上也大幅改善了這個財政能力那希望可以共體時間那如果真的地方政府有具體的需求的時候我想中央政府也一定會給予協助那另外我想如果立法院、統一行政院可以辦理追加預算我想這個也是一個解決之道以上"},{"start":2948.632,"end":2959.879,"text":"在接下來發言以前針對剛剛有委員所提出有關立法院職權行使法適用的問題我現在請我們的議事同仁說明報告各位委員70條立法院職權行使法第70條第二項所指的各黨團指派之代表其中一人應為審查會委員"},{"start":2977.679,"end":2987.944,"text":"這個前段的規定因為這個案子已經綽綽近乎二讀所以在審查會沒有結論所以他並不適用說一定要派其中一位要是審查會的委員"},{"start":2989.966,"end":3015.406,"text":"好 那非常明顯剛剛在這邊大聲咆哮拍桌指責別人不懂立法院職權刑事法的鍾嘉斌委員原來搞不清楚立法院職權刑事法在這邊恣意的叫囂 謾罵 拍桌 指責別人的人依照意識人員的說明恐怕才是不懂立法院職權刑事法我們接下來請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":3017.935,"end":3021.589,"text":"今天這個會議有兩個非常重要的重點第一個"},{"start":3022.748,"end":3048.695,"text":"就是要扭回矯正民進黨政府特別是行政院的違法亂紀跟無法補填第二更重要喔扭正完之後趕快把地方政府嗷嗷待哺攸關到一般民眾的社會福利預算教育預算跟基礎建設的預算趕快撥下去台灣民眾黨的提案非常清楚做兩件事情第一個行政院不要"},{"start":3049.915,"end":3071.122,"text":"不只是法盲耶 不要連變成是文盲我們立法院的刪讀條文預算案清清楚楚它的決議的意思是什麼由中央各機關及所屬邊內之預算刪減調整請問行政院哪一個人 行政院長卓榮泰你哪隻眼睛看到有要刪地方的補助款"},{"start":3072.472,"end":3099.718,"text":"你是文盲還是不只是法盲是文盲嗎所以第一個把這個矯正回來不能夠砍不能夠砍地方的補助款你要從中央政府機關跟所屬的這個單位這是第一個點第二個立即補助將一般補助款足而撥給地方那剛剛秘書長說窮監方法至少違反了兩個很嚴重的第一個我看到國倉去問了主計長租給店"},{"start":3102.284,"end":3108.575,"text":"你說你本來送給行政院總統在總縣長有三個解決方案嘛對不對第一個方案"},{"start":3110.785,"end":3132.653,"text":"前述三類國債戶籍 這個就是我一直在提醒你的啊2002年行政院長張進雄 總統是陳水扁啊那時候經過朝野協商 撿了什麼 就是這個嘛 對不對所以那時候陳水扁行 為什麼現在賴清德不行張進雄行 為什麼左翁派不行你要用人家是第一個案子啊 什麼叫窮盡方法 是不是"},{"start":3135.834,"end":3162.748,"text":"2002年的中央政府總預算才一兆五千億欸 是現在的一半欸那時候調了多少 諸葛定385億 對不對欸 685億 比你的636還多欸有潛力可循 你明明可以用第一個案啊所以就用這個第一個案就解決問題了啊周榮泰弄錯方法嘛他沒有把人民放在心上嘛 他就砍了人民最重要的社福 教育 跟地方的補助好 第二個更嚴重的"},{"start":3164.008,"end":3184.086,"text":"行政院長跟組計長你們要做什麼事情預算那麼多你就是要有輕重緩急嘛就你砍的當然是要砍那個比較不是那麼急的預算嘛砍比較不重要的嘛或者是浪費的嘛結果你現在砍的地方這個每一筆都是人民最需要的輕重緩急這不是最重最急的事情嗎"},{"start":3185.692,"end":3195.519,"text":"應該怎麼對得起人民所以第一個有潛力可行2002年的例子事實上主計長也提了這三案子的第一案這是第一個所有解決方案第二更重要不要違反輕重反擊"},{"start":3197.657,"end":3220.028,"text":"對不對 所以盡快 你現在回過頭去你可以用第一個案子的方式 用利息的方式第二個 你看他有去檢討你立法 這個行政部裡面有多少浪費多少不當甚至有弊案的 他有去處理啊包括我再提醒你 審計部的結算報告要你去檢討外面住辦公室的社會發展部現在每一年還花了五千多萬在那邊住辦公室"},{"start":3221.188,"end":3248.453,"text":"審計部不叫你查嗎把該省的錢省下來把636億找出來不是困難的所以有兩條路第一個趕快用你的地案全數刪除這個國債的付息是一個方法第二個去把輕重緩急裡面那些被審計部認為是浪費的不當的立法院提出很多弊案了該減的趕快減一減把636億拿出來所以要刪減的是中央各機關跟所屬單位的第二個更重要的馬上"},{"start":3249.494,"end":3258.825,"text":"撥給地方趕快補足 地方該給的錢都是救命錢 都是跟人民有關的社福 藉著這些錢趕快撥下去好 謝謝張祺台委員那接下來是民進黨黨團的代表要發言嗎我剛有舉手 現在來請陳培武委員發言我先跟您確認 計時幾分鐘"},{"start":3267.616,"end":3289.929,"text":"3分鐘好 現在主席剛剛主席先談到程序問題剛剛我們跟議事人員對過了您手上翻的資料是舊的請大家看74字1條裡面就有寫照依照第8條鎖定進赴二讀之議案應交付黨團協商並由提案委員或所屬黨團負責召集這個部分我不知道然後再適用到70到74條"},{"start":3291.71,"end":3316.931,"text":"也就是如果我再把74之1推回到70條第二款裡面就會提到要有相關委員會的委員所以中嘉賓委員剛剛提出的程序沒有問題還是要拜託主席秉公處理至於剛剛你要我現在回答嗎還是我最後再綜合回答主席這是我的發言時間好那你為了問題不要求我現在再回答我等你發完以後再回答來時間繼續主席要暫停計時你時間要不要還給我"},{"start":3319.639,"end":3323.504,"text":"我們從2分20秒開始我剛剛講了8秒鐘的話來從2分20秒開始來請繼續針對張祺凱委員剛剛莫名其妙的發言我想這一切所有預算的亂象要不要回去問一下你們的黃國昌主席民眾黨現在想要改名叫台灣直播黨的黨主席"},{"start":3337.442,"end":3353.846,"text":"當時你們提出那個是亂刪減預算的事情你們到現在還是沒有回應人民這個疑問而所有當時你們自己還說算不出來要叫組織總署幫你們算過去組織總署幫忙計算的案例是每一個預算提案都可以好好協商好好討論請問你們針對每一個預算可以好好協商好好討論了嗎我已經舉過非常多例子了可能各位委員不但愛讀書包含國民黨委員魯明哲"},{"start":3362.208,"end":3367.932,"text":"提出要刪減文化幣的預算陳玉珍要刪除公共電視的預算這些都是因為人民要看相關電視要讀相關的書籍有相關的補助你們見不得人民在言論跟思想上有所進步你們做出這樣荒謬提案而這只是四千多個荒謬提案裡面其中一兩個拿出來讓人家笑而已所以張其凱請你不要再造謠"},{"start":3384.483,"end":3399.011,"text":"還有我要最後要說你口口聲聲要在嘉義人民爭取福利你甚至提出荒謬的提案但我要說你在行政院多做事你不用給他多給錢嗎如果今天所有多做出來的事情多了大學補助 多了所有育兒津貼所有房租補貼所有說出來要多做的事情"},{"start":3401.932,"end":3430.314,"text":"他不用給錢你不用給他錢嗎你口口聲聲喊著多少預算是史上新高那我就問蔣萬安台北市他增加了多少預算如果蔣萬安也不會做那他是不是應該要下台我想你們就是雙標雙標黨就不用再說了而這一切一切請你們回歸到所有混亂的源頭請不要再造謠每次在協商就是聽到你在造謠我想直播大家都看得非常清楚我也知道等一下我們講完之後我們所有的發言都會被跪黨"},{"start":3432.045,"end":3441.988,"text":"在野黨做成荒謬的影片繼續磨黑我們我只要說所有的文書都留在立法院公報系統裡面大家都看得一清二楚人民眼睛不是瞎的以上"},{"start":3444.354,"end":3463.526,"text":"好 謝謝陳柏宇委員針對剛剛陳柏宇委員所提出來的槌尋說明如下依照74條之一由所屬的黨團召集協商我今天之所以會坐在這邊就是因為收到院會的來文由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商這是第一點"},{"start":3464.482,"end":3491.428,"text":"那第二點在法條的適用上面可能再回去看清楚並不是像剛剛陳委員所這樣解釋的也正是因為如此我剛剛才會沒有打斷陳委員的發言因為據我所知陳培宇委員似乎也不是財政委員會的委員你是司法署委員會的委員是是是 那個請你先把麥克風按掉是是是那剛剛我只有回答你們的問題嘛"},{"start":3493.168,"end":3511.958,"text":"你說要財政委員 是你們民進黨說要財政委員會的委員才可以啊那現在從你陳培余的發言不就證明了不用財政委員會的委員也可以代表黨在這邊發言嗎不好意思喔 是 但是你不是 但是你不是對 但是你不是"},{"start":3515.716,"end":3538.439,"text":"剛剛你在發言的時候,我尊重你發言的時間請你官層委員把你的麥克風按掉現在是在主席回應的時間現在主席在回應請你官層委員把你的麥克風...對,你是財政委員會,但你不是主席啊但你現在不是會議主席啊對啊,當會議主席沒有請你發言啊"},{"start":3540.567,"end":3567.051,"text":"雖然是台瘦委員會的要來這邊怎麼樣發言都可以嗎請李光誠委員不要恣意地按麥克風請尊重主席的會議主席請尊重主席的會議主席這個問題是你們陳培余委員提出來的我依照你們陳培余委員提出來的問題所以呢你陳培余不是台瘦委員會的委員所以我剛剛也讓你發言了啊請你們尊重主席的會議主席很奇怪"},{"start":3567.871,"end":3589.931,"text":"當你發言我也停止下來讓你完整的陳述我完全按照你所提的問題來回應你們這樣也有問題嗎尊重一下主席的會議主持好不好不要恣意的按麥克風你們每一個人發言的機會我都非常的公平各個黨團然後輪流的發言不好意思我是會議主席在回答你的問題嘛"},{"start":3591.372,"end":3606.017,"text":"奇怪你問我問題然後又不讓我回答天底下有這個道理嗎第二個部分剛剛陳培宇委員說什麼台灣民眾黨是直播黨我想要跟你糾正一下台灣民眾黨就是台灣民眾黨"},{"start":3607.037,"end":3631.589,"text":"台灣民眾黨的黨主席從來沒有下令所屬的每一個立委都要趕快開直播就我記憶所及去年有下這個命令的似乎是民主進步黨的賴清德主席說所屬的立委要開直播那台灣民眾黨從過去柯文哲主席到我為止我從來沒有下令說所屬的立委都要開直播所以如果有人要扣什麼直播黨的話"},{"start":3632.809,"end":3657.548,"text":"這個似乎是要還給那個有下令的民主進步黨會比較妥適一點那第三個剛剛陳委員所講的說那這個預算齁當初就是沒有好好協商沒有好好討論那我相信全國的公民啦把去年在預算在協商的時候到底誰坐在現在陳培餘坐的位置然後在盤古開天然後"},{"start":3658.868,"end":3682.617,"text":"癱瘓了兩次總預算協商的機會我相信全國人民也都看得非常的清楚那以上針對陳培宇委員剛剛的垂詢回覆如上接下來我們請中國國民黨的代表鄭天才委員發言第一個這一次之所以會產生這個問題就是在今年1月"},{"start":3684.046,"end":3702.674,"text":"這個韓國瑜院長主持朝野協商的時候甚至韓國瑜院長在朝野協商本來是安排兩天在開始的時候還特別提如果協商時間不足禮拜六跟禮拜天還可以再加開"},{"start":3704.076,"end":3727.681,"text":"但是大家都很清楚回顧一下當時是我們的柯總召一直一直在說大罷免的事情所以就沒有去沒有沒有機會協商這是第一個第二個預算審查完了之後韓國瑜院長去了總統府之後在今年的2月18號韓國瑜院長又召開了協商"},{"start":3734.773,"end":3741.888,"text":"針對行政院到底有什麼自愛男性的可以再討論必要的話"},{"start":3743.032,"end":3766.847,"text":"可以追加預算當時的一個方向是這樣但是很可惜的那一次2月18號依然沒有辦法協商這是補充另外就是說這一次的整個行政院刪減中央地方中央補助地方政府的一般性補助款從這個"},{"start":3769.99,"end":3785.755,"text":"財政收支劃分法所授權行政院訂定的中央對地方政府的補助辦法裡面第二條第二條就很明確的這些一般性補助款是要作為"},{"start":3787.475,"end":3805.593,"text":"法例相關的法例譬如說國民年金法條文裡面都有寫國民年金法農民健保條例老年農民福利津貼暫停條例中低收入戶老人這些辦法所規定的地方政府需要配合的部分"},{"start":3806.536,"end":3825.272,"text":"就要從這個地方一般性補助款裡面來自用另外在第三條裡面也寫得很清楚一般性補助款就是要作為社福跟這些教育基礎設施之用所以這個倒是一個法律義務的支出"},{"start":3826.293,"end":3850.604,"text":"從行政院113年8月30號送到立法院的中114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法律醫務支出的明細表第九之一也特別提到一般性補助款是法律醫務支出所以既然是法律醫務支出就不應該來刪減"},{"start":3853.413,"end":3877.172,"text":"如果真的是確實如行政院長所說的希望追加預算就不是要針對一般協助款追加預算要針對中央所要支用的不足的部分去追加預算是中央要支用的部分好 謝謝那個各黨團的代表目前我們都按照公平的原則進行了兩輪"},{"start":3879.073,"end":3895.205,"text":"那梁榮文的發言以後針對這次我們要討論的議案本身因為來協商嘛我們最重要的就是要針對議案本身有沒有辦法達成共識因為我們在黨團協商的現場誰也沒有辦法逼誰一定要採取什麼立場"},{"start":3899.068,"end":3919.615,"text":"各自的立場說清楚講明白全國人民能夠了解這樣就好了那目前我們現在是要求建請院會做成決議行政院主計總署因依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算通案三檢之決議一旨"},{"start":3921.636,"end":3940.95,"text":"由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算三減調整並立即將一般性的補助款足而撥付於地方政府那針對這個議案本身那個主席歸納一下台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是表示贊成的"},{"start":3941.943,"end":3955.886,"text":"中國國民黨黨團的立場也是表示贊成的那民主進步黨黨團的立場是不是表示反對因為剛剛兩輪發言以後我還聽不出來民主進步黨黨團的立場是贊成還是反對是贊成還是反對可以啊來請"},{"start":3965.087,"end":3982.559,"text":"謝謝主席那我本身是財政委員會那在場大概是只有33委員跟我是屬於這個財政委員會那我要先提一下就是說6月4號的那個會議其實是有開程的當天的主席是賴世保委員是有開程的"},{"start":3983.399,"end":4003.749,"text":"那當天的所有的發言的委員也都有完成的發言的程序到最後會議的結束那所以那一天的整個會議的過程並不是像主席所講的沒有審議它是有審議那或許不如主席的意那所以呢你們就是到了這一個院會的時候抽出來然後今天坐朝也寫上"},{"start":4004.589,"end":4024.017,"text":"那我還是再重複一下就是說我們的立場我們立場就是說這個行政院主席出的做法沒有違法它完全是按照法律的程序來做導致當時候在野黨通過總預算的時候留下了這一個統三數不低於940億的"},{"start":4026.599,"end":4039.11,"text":"那這一個需要行政院再去來做一個統刪那行政院也問過了問過了在野黨那你如果扣掉了可以刪掉的304億還有636億該怎麼刪要從哪些項目刪哪些部會來刪在野黨說不出來啊"},{"start":4047.498,"end":4074.885,"text":"那所以說整個總運算 送出來的時間就延後了為什麼 因為其實在立法院一直算不出來說那到底統刪 到底要刪哪些項目那所以後來行政院才有這個 做了這個決定這個636億的部分 用所謂的一般性的補助款來做這個調節那政業黨的委員也提到說 好啦 那這個一般性補助款這個都好像是跟這個民生啊 社會福利有相關"},{"start":4076.041,"end":4104.419,"text":"但是這個一般性的補助款是屬於縣市的收入也就是稅入 稅入的部分那各位委員所提到的部分都是屬於這一個支出 稅出的部分所以說稅出的部分要怎麼去做調整是屬於各個縣市政府可以去做處理的部分那除了這個之外其實行政院也有提出來提出來就是說我們是不是可以用追加預算的方式來做處理"},{"start":4105.319,"end":4124.085,"text":"那其實像張善政 桃園市的市長 他當過行政院院長他就知道說行政院的做法 他是可以接受的所以當行政院提出來說 是不是這636億可以用追加預算來做處理的時候張善政他是同意的 他是支持的"},{"start":4124.945,"end":4146.244,"text":"所以我也希望說在場的這個在野黨的委員也能夠支持這636億用追加預算的方式來做處理那我想這不論是中央或是地方有了這個追加預算之後大家也不會說那接下來這些不過的預算要怎麼做處理那以上就是我的看法"},{"start":4148.447,"end":4171.549,"text":"謝謝李昆城委員跟所有黨團的代表報告我們今天討論的是要求中央行政院將一般性的補助款足額撥付給地方政府追加預算所謂的追加預算的案子第一個既不在本次協商的範圍之內第二個到目前為止除了媒體放話我也沒有看到"},{"start":4172.21,"end":4200.405,"text":"我們的行政院有提任何追加的案子送到本院來那無論如何這個追加預算就不在今天協商的範圍內而且這個空中樓格到目前為止也沒有到立法院來所以沒有辦法來加以處理但我只想要最後因為這個會牽涉到我們協商結論要怎麼寫啦所以針對將一般性的補助款足而撥付給地方政府民進黨立法院黨團的立場是反對的嘛 對不對"},{"start":4201.894,"end":4225.28,"text":"是嗎 對民進黨立法院黨團反對把一般性的補助款足而撥付給地方政府那我們今天的黨團結商沒有辦法獲至共識那我們接下來就會就邀這個郊遊院會處理主席 上會等一下 主席我可以補充一下嗎對不起我已經喊上會了那沒關係的我還是要說一下從預算通過當時呢民眾"}]}},{"id":"16751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16751","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685d714ad69ae6c79148b590722cf65bc4b8b19dddded0b194f9dc23ee5a76171bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「病人自主權利法修法」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-12T08:31:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-12T12:25:00+08:00","duration":14032,"影片長度":"03:53:52","委員發言時間":"08:31:08 - 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現在開會今天本會舉行變人自主權利法的修法公聽會謝謝各位學者專家及各政府機關代表力行指教本次公聽會探討的議題以提綱為準請各位來自行參閱特別來說明召開本次公聽會的背景"},{"start":1717.745,"end":1738.479,"text":"然後等一下再做相關一些介紹這是在2016年我們陽前域行委員等多位委員還有包含我包含在內在跨黨派的共同在立院推動"},{"start":1739.332,"end":1765.299,"text":"病人自治權利法當時是亞洲第一部保障病人三中全力的重要法案那如今這部有關重弱病人的法案已經上路六年在這六年期間相信很多在第一線執行的狀態的時候可能遭遇到困難需要來做這個解決甚至於如今民眾想要做這個醫療決定"},{"start":1767.884,"end":1790.111,"text":"都要排隊蠻長的一段時間才能完成這個諮商也因此還導致在六年間民眾簽署人數才一趴多這些都是急需要透過這次的大秀來解決問題那同時衛福部在今年五月起已經擴大健保幾乎至65歲以上的民眾可以免費諮商"},{"start":1791.392,"end":1805.431,"text":"預估符合資格的長者高達180萬人衛部也設定未來要提升至每年簽署人數至4萬5千人左右但是現階段的障礙不解決"},{"start":1806.572,"end":1825.727,"text":"可能要來處理這樣的量能要消化未來進行的ACP人數可能是會有問題的所以在我跟王毓民委員還有蠻多委員特別關注變成自主權力法的這個修法的草案那也希望透過這個修法進一步提升ACP服務的可進線"},{"start":1826.788,"end":1852.674,"text":"量能與品質,同時也建立衛福部引力在社區長照機構甚至於居家照護系統中推動更具彈性的諮商服務模式讓這項制度能真正走進民眾生活觸及那些最需要的人草案已經在5月19日本委員會進行第一輪的主條審查為了使社會大眾可以更加理解草案的核心內容"},{"start":1853.494,"end":1878.225,"text":"凝聚社會共識讓這部跨黨派的病毒法可以在6年後升級為2.0的版本增加民眾的可敬心所以特別召開這場SHOWR公聽會也邀請各界專家學者共同聚焦討論讓本法在第二輪的審查時可以更加的順利以上做這樣的一個背景報告好我現在來介紹在場的委員第一位是陳昭思陳委員"},{"start":1882.196,"end":1893.85,"text":"好 第二位是林月琴 林委員第三位是王正旭 王委員好 現在介紹這個學者專家"},{"start":1897.369,"end":1924.851,"text":"我就依照天道優先順序第一位也是病處法的這個最核心的積極推動的我最敬愛的這個國立台灣大學哲學系我們的教授孫孝志孫教授好第二位是台灣高等法院法官廖建瑜謝謝第三位是台北市台北市聯合醫院失智症中心主任劉建良謝謝"},{"start":1927.23,"end":1951.177,"text":"第一位是臺灣家庭醫學會秘書長孫文榮謝謝第一位是中華民國臨床心理師公會全國聯合會監事曾長長謝謝採訪法人大德安寧醫療護發對不起安寧療護發展基金會專案總監林怡瑩好謝謝"},{"start":1958.278,"end":1960.98,"text":"臺北市立聯合醫院中校院區家庭醫學科主治醫師 廖鴻文臺北華人臺灣在甲醫療學會秘書長 蔡依林"},{"start":1982.834,"end":2004.106,"text":"葉依林中南民國醫務社會工作協會秘書長莊東憲台北慈濟醫院放車腫瘤科組織醫師常宥康如果有陸續到的再提醒我再補充來做介紹"},{"start":2011.026,"end":2034.119,"text":"行政機關代表衛福部政務次長林靜儀醫事司司長劉月平健保署副署長陳亮宇長照師副司長吳希文健康照護師副司長陳清梅國健署檢驗機政謝佩君"},{"start":2036.718,"end":2052.144,"text":"好 心理健康醫師代理科長陳品瑞 謝謝法務部參事汪蘭君好 謝謝好 接下來請衛務部代表來做報告是不是請次長謝謝"},{"start":2062.742,"end":2087.384,"text":"好 召委還有我們的公聽會的各位委員還有這個是我公聽會的各位來賓專家好 大家好那主席各位委員 女士先生今年大院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會舉行病人自主權立法修法公聽會那本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸遵就病人自主權立法修正條文提出報告進行各位委員不吝會議執教"},{"start":2089.946,"end":2106.636,"text":"本部意見的部分我們針對修正草案的部分逐一來跟委員還有各位專家做一些意見上的說明第一關於委員所提第四條修正草案略以病人以無法明示其意願且成為預歷醫療決定者關係人不得妨礙病人預歷醫療決定之執行"},{"start":2110.999,"end":2133.957,"text":"那現行法條的條文已經規範病人關係人不得妨礙醫療機構或醫師依病人就醫療選項做決定之行為那是以達成確保病人善終權利之目的而且病人無法明示其意願這個定義比較不明確可能擔心增加臨床失誤執行上的困擾跟誤解"},{"start":2135.038,"end":2162.044,"text":"第二关于立委所提第六条修正草案略以病人为民事反对由关西人行使同意权时得以关西人同意为之那赋予关西人同意病人接受手术中央主管机关规定的侵入性治疗或检查的权利那不过关西人之范围广泛可能增加潜在的道德风险有关立委所提第十条修正草案略以"},{"start":2162.904,"end":2180.197,"text":"医疗委任代理人或监护人与医院人亦是昏迷或无法清楚表达意愿时,代理医院人表达医疗意愿,不过实际执行上面假设病人之意愿未明确揭示,可能会增加"},{"start":2182.638,"end":2207.896,"text":"决策判断的不确定性恐无法保障病人善中权益以及可能删除现行法条文中针对医疗委任代理人的限制也可能增加潜在的道德风险第三有关委员所提第九条修正草案略以经主管机关核准之护理机构长照机构心理治疗所心理治丧所社会工作室事务或"},{"start":2209.467,"end":2229.662,"text":"事务所或法人得提供预立医疗照护资商不过扩大资商场域范围可能增加道德风险且有违本法之立法精神本部于今年度已规划针对基层资商机构进行辅导以提升基层资商机构之服务量能"},{"start":2230.322,"end":2249.352,"text":"仍建议维持现行法条文或调整由主管机关核准医疗机构之预立医疗照护资商团队至医疗机构、护理机构或长照机构提供预立医疗照护资商并新增配偶应为参与资商之人员"},{"start":2250.433,"end":2274.758,"text":"第四,有关委员所提第12条及第14条修正草案略以病人符合特定临床条件之一且有预立医疗决定者、医疗机构或医师得依其预立医疗决定或临床医疗过程中书面明示之意思表示终止、撤除或不施行维持生命治疗或人工营养及流体喂养。"},{"start":2275.598,"end":2296.006,"text":"不过为医院人便跟预立医疗决定之程序应完备并经注记于全民健康保险以确保医院人之权益与减少医疗争议有关委员所提第16条之一修正草案略以有关预立医疗照护资商所需医疗服务费用"},{"start":2296.426,"end":2320.152,"text":"应由中央主管机关编列预算制定以及有关病人符合特定临床条件之确认程序与病人接受缓和医疗及其他适当处置所需医疗服务费用应由中央主管机关纳入全民健康保险医疗服务给付项目及支付标准应涉及预立医疗照护相关费用给付上需金"},{"start":2321.312,"end":2345.724,"text":"深入政策演绎与详细预算规划目前仍需整体评估其经费需求与相关资源配置以确保在实施过程中具可行性与临床食物上之成效另外本部健保署已经于114年5月1日起扩大新增65岁以上重大伤病病人以及全民健康保险家庭医师整合性照护计划"},{"start":2346.244,"end":2370.134,"text":"或全民健康保险地区医院全人全社区照护计划之65岁以上多重慢性病病人两类对象给付预立医疗照护资商费用并且由住院扩大至医院门诊与基层诊所服务原本不建议维持现行法条文未来我们将逐步滚动是修正政策方向"},{"start":2371.448,"end":2394.41,"text":"为落实以病人为中心之照护理念,本部持续推动病人自主权利法,包括推动医疗机构设置预立医疗照护资商门诊与建立资商机制、培训医疗专业人员,以及提升民众签署预立医疗决定意愿等措施,以及提升社会对于自主医疗决策之势能与支持。"},{"start":2395.171,"end":2409.447,"text":"有關所提修正條文草案應涉及臨床食物執行潛在道德風險與相關醫療爭議等多方面向應等各界達成共識再行通盤檢討修正本部呈大院"},{"start":2410.228,"end":2425.6,"text":"及各委員之指導及監督在此盡致謝程並期各位委員繼續予以支持那我想本部會持續以朝向強化執行那促進醫兵執政的瞭解跟提供相關外展服務的方式來做規劃謝謝主席跟各位委員 謝謝好 謝謝市長"},{"start":2436.721,"end":2452.51,"text":"本次會議 部會及學者專家所提供之相關書面資料均會列入紀錄來刊登公報第七 與會人員在發言前先宣告以下事項第一 學者專家及本院委員每月發言時間為六分鐘"},{"start":2453.15,"end":2477.602,"text":"第二位檢控發言學者專家發言請至主席台的右邊的發言台那院事上請這個學者專家先行1000道的順序發言那委員如果有要發言也請到主席台來這邊做登記那全部人員發言完畢之後再請行政機關來做整體的回應那我們暫定10點半休息10分鐘"},{"start":2479.619,"end":2484.251,"text":"好 現在請登記第一位孫教授 孫教授來做發言"},{"start":2498.989,"end":2513.648,"text":"主席各位議會代表很高興有這個機會來針對病毒法的修法做一些說明但是由於修法法條涉及的眾多那發言時間有限所以我只打算針對我覺得比較困難比較複雜的"},{"start":2517.191,"end":2539.858,"text":"條文來做說明那第一個我要說明的是有關第12條第三項第四項的刪除其實他是要連動到第14條第一項新增一個概念就是病人當下的醫療意願這個是必須連動起來思考我這邊是可以控制電腦嗎還是"},{"start":2545.083,"end":2566.457,"text":"好那所以這個是一個比較複雜的所以我大概會先做這個說明然後如果時間充夠的話我就會針對第九條再做說明最後可能也針對第四條第三項剛剛這個次長也有做到報告來做一下說明好所以我們先進入到第一個那要瞭解第一個"},{"start":2569,"end":2589.053,"text":"這兩個這個第12條第3項第4項的刪除連動於第14條新增這一句話必須要針對於原本的第12條第3項的問題要做一個比較徹底的一個理解那我們的這個修法的建議基本上就是把第12條第3項第4項予以刪除然後搭配第14條"},{"start":2590.414,"end":2601.704,"text":"那修法的理由呢 首先喔是因為第十二條第三項存在很根本的問題然後第四項呢 又是因為第三項而設那"},{"start":2603.393,"end":2632.913,"text":"那這個第四項呢這個要求中央儲管機關去訂定這個一個新的針對第三項的一個特殊的一個AD的變更程序那中央儲管機關把它訂在私營系的第八條所以要了解第十二條第三項第四項為什麼需要刪除大家需要了解私營系的第八條的本身也是重大的問題它不僅不能夠達到目的而且還有違背母法之餘所以根本解決的方案是刪除第三項第四項"},{"start":2634.634,"end":2654.033,"text":"改在第14條第1項增加我剛剛所提到的這句話讓這個臨床醫療過程中書面民事的醫事表示也能夠成為醫師終止測試或不施行的這個依據之一除了這個預料決定依據病人的預料決定以及臨床的書面醫事表示好那我們先看一下"},{"start":2655.474,"end":2670.186,"text":"第12條第三項的問題第12條第三項的問題就在於它規範的情境事實上是極為罕見的情境也就是病人AD註記要救治然後臨床卻希望不要救治"},{"start":2670.726,"end":2694.364,"text":"這個是非常罕見因為大部分人簽AD不是為了要簽一個要救治的AD是簽一個不要救治的AD那如果發生這樣罕見的情形的話才適合第12條第3項要求當事人要去變更為AD為什麼呢因為按照目前現行法第14條第1項醫師只得依據病人的AD來終止或者是撤除或者是不施行"},{"start":2695.265,"end":2710.28,"text":"那所以如果他的AD是想要救治的話醫師是無由予以這個不救治的所以為了要配合第十四條第一項的這個現行的一個規定所以這邊第十二條第三項才會說如果發生這種情形的話"},{"start":2711.502,"end":2736.493,"text":"那麼就要請這個當事人去變更AD那事實上大部分的情形是AD是簽不要救那在醫療現場的話很可能病人即使符合臨床條件到他自己真的決定要執行自己的AD可能因為這個決定就是一個終極的決定決定了就進入善終的一個過程所以病人在一般情形下基本上他還是會要救"},{"start":2737.133,"end":2762.278,"text":"可能等兒子回來或等一切都準備就緒即使他符合臨床條件所以我們不能說當臨床的意思表示跟AD不一致的時候就一定要要求當事人去變更AD這是一個很不合理的規定也是第12條第三項容易引起誤解的一個規定第12條第三項唯一合理的情境就是在極罕見的情形之下AD居然寫的是要救"},{"start":2763.038,"end":2773.272,"text":"然後現場說不要救這時候才有法理上要求當事人如果你不要救的話你必須變成AD就這樣的一個情形OK好那"},{"start":2775.105,"end":2796.718,"text":"我們就是希望這個本法立法的精神就是希望能夠更快速的尊重病人在當下的一個意願所以才會有第12條根據第12條第3項這樣的情形才會有第12條第4項希望衛福部能夠公告一個比較便捷的快速尊重當事人意願的一個變更AD的一個程序"},{"start":2797.879,"end":2817.844,"text":"衛福部把他定在適應細則第八條問題是適應細則第八條問題非常非常的嚴重那其實當初我們團隊也是接受衛福部委託跟黃聖堅醫師一起但是通過的版本是有問題的但是其實一直沒有機會可以跟衛福部反映這件事情那他有什麼樣的一個問題呢"},{"start":2820.124,"end":2840.776,"text":"最終問題就是它的主句 我不知道這邊是不是有打出來 主句這邊有把它打出來主句這邊就是說 當不一致的時候 醫療機構因依當事人的書名、名字、意思、表示來為之這個因這個字 就違反了母法第十四條第一項的得那個字"},{"start":2841.696,"end":2869.891,"text":"因為母法事實上是允許醫師有良心抗辯權不是非要執行病人的AD不可的這也是當時跟很多宗教團體辦的醫院討論的結果他們譬如說天主教基本上大概會反對非末期病人然後去執行他們的AD好所以我們的第八條的這個因子就是一個違背母法的情形然後就這個但述來講的話如果當事人是選擇不要"},{"start":2871.252,"end":2893.089,"text":"那麼醫師仍然應該以原本的意義要決定去這個行動直到他變更完成為止那這個效果就是使得訂了這一條如同白訂了因為這一條就沒有辦法達到快速尊重當事人意願的一個立法的一個目的因此釜底抽薪的做法就是不要透過變更"},{"start":2894.19,"end":2919.993,"text":"一個特殊的變更AD的程序第12條第4項也就是現在施行細則第8條而是直接的允許醫師除了依據當事人的AD也能夠依據臨床的書面意思表示來終止測除跟不施行就可以達到即快速變更這個尊重病人的當下的書面意思那這種尊重呢也是在病人已經做過"},{"start":2920.874,"end":2948.306,"text":"看第44條第一項這一句話是要先做過ACP簽過AD的我們才尊重他的書面的這個意思表示好所以這個是修正的一個原因那有人會說這樣子當當下意願跟這個AD的意思不一致的時候會是不是會發生難以執行的問題其實完全不會發生這種問題我這邊就用紅色字體表示出這兩者之間不一致的情形如果我們修法之後AD"},{"start":2949.909,"end":2965.382,"text":"AD如果是不要救 當下要救AD如果是寫不要救 當下要救這就是最正常的狀況那就是循病處法第15條尊重病人當下的意願直到病人準備好要執行他的AD為止"},{"start":2966.403,"end":2993.844,"text":"那如果AD是很罕見的是寫要救的情形那我們正是要針對這種情形就是原本第12條第三項情形那這時候呢當下意願如果是這個不要救我們就修法之後的話就可以直接尊重當下意願不予以救治了所以這個就是為什麼這樣的修法原因這邊是必須連動好幾個條文包含施行細則第8條才能夠做的一個完整的理解好那至於這一題"},{"start":2997.808,"end":3014.904,"text":"現在就進到第九條第九條的話時間關係我就很簡單講其實就是我看過全聯會的聯合聲明其實他們最擔心的一點就是他們認為ACP是一種醫療行為但是ACP照看來它不是一種醫療行為"},{"start":3016.625,"end":3028.272,"text":"ACP基本上是一種去說明法律賦予人民怎麼樣的一種自主權或者是拒絕權的一種諮商行為這就如同醫療保險的業務員他需要"},{"start":3032.555,"end":3043.147,"text":"經過訓練非常熟悉醫療保險的內容所以他才知道在什麼樣的臨床條件之下有什麼樣的醫療干預會得到什麼樣的保險給付但是這樣的一個醫療保險的經紀人員並不需要先取得醫師的證照才能夠對醫療保險的細節非常複雜的細節做說明"},{"start":3052.578,"end":3071.418,"text":"所以以ACP為一種醫療行為 屬於醫療行為的專業性而不接受把ACP擴大到其他人員也能夠獨立單剛去進行我覺得在理念上可能本身是可以被質疑的"},{"start":3072.159,"end":3085.257,"text":"那之所以會有這樣的一個修法的建議最主要是從實務上來看我們會發現到實務上現在基本上大概都是護理師、社工師、心理師在擔綱為什麼呢 如果以大醫院來說的話大醫院裡面的醫師"},{"start":3088.121,"end":3114.132,"text":"其實並沒有太高的意願除了非常關心病人自主的醫師之外並沒有太高的意願要去這個從事ACP因為對他們而言性價比太低那醫師是建議擴大基層就是診所診所我認為診所的事實上就是精通一支ACP機構那麼他們的團隊組成就主要就是醫師跟護理師因為診所不可能聘社工師跟心理師"},{"start":3115.25,"end":3123.216,"text":"那大家想醫師跟護理師在事實上醫師只要一接近來主要的這個ACP的人員是誰他只要"},{"start":3124.383,"end":3147.053,"text":"他只要收進一個受過良好的ACP訓練的一個護理師口才又非常遍及又非常的親切他就可以吸引社區群眾來那一個護理師上午兩場下午兩場就可以帶進一萬四千塊的收入一個月可以帶進好幾十萬的收入醫師可以持續的做他的門診拿健保的點數基層門診的基層的診所我認為醫師有動機但事實上"},{"start":3152.955,"end":3173.387,"text":"主要依靠的是護理的人力 換言之真正在做ACP的是護理師那以大醫院來說的話 我剛剛已經解釋了 大醫院的這個醫師並不是很願意從事ACP 除非我最近得到新的一個資訊一些大的醫院年輕的 就是門診量很低 然後可以透過團體的諮商"},{"start":3176.389,"end":3193.863,"text":"可能可以帶進一個下午的團體智商可以讓一個年輕的新進的醫師得到的這個收入高過他門診的一個收入這時候可能會有一些動機大部分已經非常忙碌的組織醫師是不太願意的所以衛福部希望能夠把這個醫療機構裡面的這個ACP團隊再派到長照機構其他機構去"},{"start":3199.668,"end":3215.191,"text":"以目前都是堅韌的狀況醫師的意願不是很高在在醫療機構裡面要開出ACP的門診都無法開出很多的門診來應付越來越高的這個ACP的服務能量的一個需求如果還要把醫療機構的人這個以這個這個資源這個這個"},{"start":3222.373,"end":3249.004,"text":"對外支援服務的方式我認為基本上是不可行的所以這也是我針對ACP整體而言所作為一個說明最後關於第四條第三項沒有錯剛剛次長的報告那個那個字眼我覺得的確是有調整的必要那我自己後來思考以後我就發現到其實我也跟這個王振旭委員也針對這一題也做了相當多的一個討論就第四條第三項"},{"start":3250.762,"end":3266.131,"text":"沒有錯第四條第三項目前的新增是原子他完全就是來自第四條第二項第四條第二項已經完全cover他可是過去六年我從臨床實務上就會發現到很多的家屬的確是會抗拒"},{"start":3266.831,"end":3291.81,"text":"在病人已經失去意識能力的時候抗拒病人的AD就當醫師願意尊重病人的AD家屬仍然會抗拒那這樣的情形事實上在安寧條例的情形就是已經屢見不鮮所以我們事實上第四條第三項的一個立法並不是一種立法法理上的必要性因為第四條第二項已經是涵蓋了這樣的一個特殊的情形也就是預料決定的情形"},{"start":3292.37,"end":3314.378,"text":"但是所以第四條第三項我們會希望要把它立法就是因為實務上要保障醫師在願意尊重病人意義要決定的情形不至於會受到關係人的阻礙那剛剛次長提到說關係人太複雜其實關係人並沒有太複雜關係人基本上就是法定代理人配偶親屬等等這些傳統的"},{"start":3316.85,"end":3336.468,"text":"醫療法63條64條的這些關係人的內容那為民事之意是以無法民事這個概念如果有問題我的建議是這樣子基本上也許這個詞是有一點問題可是我們就可以把它回歸到第10條第三項的這樣的一個概念也就是用"},{"start":3344.687,"end":3365.63,"text":"第十條第三項的一個概念也就是當事人失去意識能力或者是意識昏迷或者是無法清楚表達意願換言之也就是醫療文人代理人可以出動的這樣的一個情境所以這個我就是請大家稍微看一下"},{"start":3366.391,"end":3383.06,"text":"就是說我們建議就是可以把如果擔心無法明示是有問題的話可以把它修正為就是病人成為預理醫療決定但現已失去意識表示能力意識昏迷或無法清楚表達意願者好那最後的話我想要放我不知道這邊有沒有可以"},{"start":3383.62,"end":3406.169,"text":"可以播放出來那個梅珍就是事實上黃聖堅醫師我這邊又回到第九條黃聖堅醫師也是認為其實醫師並非ACP的一個必要人員他是跟我一起長年十幾年從立法到推動ACP的實驗計畫到親自的把整個台北01的這個ACP把他帶的"},{"start":3408.371,"end":3429.573,"text":"風風火火很重要的一個病毒法的推手也是聯義的前總院長他現在人在日本所以他錄了一個音來說明就是其實ACP的良幼的關鍵好壞的關鍵在於醫師或者是護理師或者是社工師或者是心理師是否受到好的ACP人員的一個訓練"},{"start":3430.994,"end":3442.697,"text":"那至於醫師,我覺得在醫療機關當中,我希望他仍然是必備的人員,是ACP的必備人員可是我覺得我們得想方設法,鼓勵醫師能夠參與ACP因為以現況來講的話,醫師參與ACP,我認為除了沒有門診的很年輕的醫師,大概不會有太高的一個意願"},{"start":3452.679,"end":3474.094,"text":"好那黃聖健醫師的話我想反正我基本上這邊也把他寫出來是讓他的錄音11分鐘現在先不聽也沒關係但是他的意思我幫大家先傳到以上可以啊有人要放嗎可以放一下沒關係有誰來處理他會自動播要怎麼弄這個我不會弄"},{"start":3481.434,"end":3486.799,"text":"我們看一下嘛,他人在日本就已經錄這個影片了,我們不看也很可惜"},{"start":3519.358,"end":3544.026,"text":"我是黄胜坚医师我从事ACP以及病毒相关的法律也已经有许多年的经验在我们过去实务执行上除了医师之外护理师测工师甚至心理师在经过很好的训练之后"},{"start":3545.242,"end":3571.957,"text":"在ACP的說明上過程裡面都有很好的效果所以為了民眾簽署AD這個的需求我覺得應該要放寬除醫師之外其他的專業人員只要接受過很好的訓練就可以協助民眾"},{"start":3573.163,"end":3593.764,"text":"做ACP簽署AD應該是民眾之福 謝謝好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們孫教授的花言跟詳細內容的一些意見也給各位做參考那接下來我們第二位是台灣高等法院廖建儀廖法官"},{"start":3600.437,"end":3618.454,"text":"列席的各位官員以及各位先進那很高興今天有這個機會來跟各位來說這個修法的一個說明那我其實看到這個草案其實蠻高興大概就是我們這個法案的精神就是以落實病人為中心的一個修法"},{"start":3619.417,"end":3635.297,"text":"那各位可以看這個我做的一個實證研究以我們這個訴訟這個這10年來將近10年來的訴訟告知說明大概是所有訴訟的裡面的最大的一個起手式都是"},{"start":3636.538,"end":3650.107,"text":"醫師沒有講所以各位可以看不管是民事或者是刑事都是一樣就是說未竟告之說明義務大概已經是我們在醫療訴訟裡面的大宗其實這部法律從108年開始"},{"start":3652.248,"end":3669.569,"text":"那一时出现在诉讼上使用我们讲的病人自主权利法这样子的四五六款大概从我自己的持证研究大概从110年开始那就越来越多人来主张四五六款四五六款"},{"start":3670.427,"end":3694.978,"text":"那所以他其實這部法律不只是在我們常在講說一個善終權而是說落實在我們一般的醫療行為裡頭這部法律其實也有相當的意義那所以這部法律在做修正的時候我就會特別注意到說他可能在不管是我們在講善終或者是在講一般醫療行為我們這次的修正對他會產生什麼樣的影響"},{"start":3696.861,"end":3720.607,"text":"我們在講說民視的因為我們時間很有限事實上民視的醫療糾紛現在的重點大致上都是幾乎都是擺在告知說明義務我們告知說明義務的議題大致上都是只有這幾項一個就是我們要怎麼去履行它另外一個就是什麼樣的醫療行為要取得同意所以我們來看我們這回的修法"},{"start":3721.467,"end":3729.998,"text":"這個是我幫各位整理最新的就是我們國家裡面所有的醫療行為必須要取得病人同意的一個規範"},{"start":3731.837,"end":3751.066,"text":"那這個前面幾個大致上各位可能都常常看到可是我們越來越多特別是比如說再生醫療這個是我們新的修法裡面也特別強調說再生醫療應該要取得病人同意的這一塊那我們這部法律其實各位可以看就是說"},{"start":3752.096,"end":3769.388,"text":"在這次的修正裡頭更強調的是什麼以病人同意為原則這個其實就是我們常講的以前我們不管在醫療法裡面以前常常都是病人或家屬這個或字就會產生就是說那是不是家屬"},{"start":3770.188,"end":3788.773,"text":"那或者是我們剛才這個次長也有講這個關係人是不是可以代為同意的這樣的一件事可是我們的修法的精神我覺得相當好就是原則上就是要以本人同意為原則那這件事情我覺得在這一次修法裡頭被落實我覺得非常的"},{"start":3790.014,"end":3803.892,"text":"開心啦那另外一個就是說在這一部法律裡頭比如說我們經過病人要同意的這個就是我剛才講的就是說剛才這個孫教授也有講我們草案的這個第四條第三項"},{"start":3804.833,"end":3827.986,"text":"其實我們在講一般的通常在講第二項很多人都會覺得說那個醫療選項就是指我們一般的所謂的醫療選擇可是我們現在草案特別就把我們講的這個AD這件事情特別把它註明下來就是說不只是我們一般的醫療行為你不能干預那特別是另外"},{"start":3829.019,"end":3858.499,"text":"我們這一個預慮醫療決定特別是他沒有辦法這個表示意願那事實上這個沒有辦法表示意願其實是可以把它修正成比如說沒有意識能力因為我一直強調的不是我們不要把醫療行為的表意的一個跟那個法律行為行為能力掛上就是掛鉤那比較特別強調的其實反而是我們這個醫療自主的一個意識能力那這個其實他其實有他"},{"start":3859.439,"end":3877.725,"text":"非常大的一個意義那過來我們再講就是說我們應該要講什麼那這個裡面我們的草案的第五條第四項就是我們講的育立醫療決定的說明那這個是我覺得如果你要問我說這部修法裡面我覺得最大的亮點大概就是"},{"start":3878.365,"end":3907.885,"text":"如果他是一個末期病人或者是我們符合14條的第五款的這種公告的這種罕見疾病那醫生這時候應該要告知這個病患說你有一個預率醫療決定的這樣的一個醫療選項那這個其實為什麼這個其實是回應我們現在很多人主張說我們是不是要安樂死立法這一步我覺得就是回應掉我們認為就是說我們為什麼現在覺得他沒有辦法"},{"start":3908.745,"end":3930.607,"text":"做這個我們講的安樂死但是我們現在給予的是說我們給你一個選擇那特別是你符合末期病人的時候醫生必須有這個義務告知那所以這該說什麼這一個我們講的第五條第三項其實就是一個很重要的一個點那另外一個剛才就在講就是說剛才孫老師一直有在講就是說誰來說明"},{"start":3932.248,"end":3945.498,"text":"那各位可以看我們一般在醫療機構一般的行為其實說明的主體大部分也都是個管師或者是專科護理師那所以其實我是蠻贊成草案的第九條第一項就是說擴張到"},{"start":3947.185,"end":3972.44,"text":"我們講的這個護理機構或者是長照機構這種場域那你把ACP當作是一種說明的過程來取得我們講的這個AD那所以其實不要拘泥說到底誰來講重點是要有經過我們講的嚴格訓練的人來講就可以了那最後一個大概就是長照的這個部分那因為"},{"start":3973.42,"end":4001.969,"text":"剛才有特別講到長照機構各位可以看到長照機構裡頭發生我們講的這種醫療照護的糾紛非常的多那所以我覺得為什麼我們會把應該要把這個AD或ACP的這個擴展到這個長照的機構就是因為他們其實也常常面臨到就是說長照機構要把他的住民送到醫院可是其實並不太清楚他真正的意願是什麼那所以你就會發現"},{"start":4003.529,"end":4031.938,"text":"這導致長照機構跟住民之間的很大的一個衝突點特別是各位要知道長照其實是適用消保法的這個其實是很特別的就是說它雖然有牽涉到我們講的醫療照護可是長照機構所提供提供的服務是適用無過失的這一個我們講的消保法的一個責任那這個是我最近幫長照機構做演講裡面所得到的一個訊息那跟各位做分享謝謝各位"},{"start":4033.715,"end":4036.496,"text":"好謝謝我們廖法官的說明接下來請我們第一位請林委員我們各位專家學者還有我們的政府部門"},{"start":4059.935,"end":4088.664,"text":"那的確今天事實上是討論法案不過我覺得更想要去提的事實上是整個的相關的措施但民國八九年安民緩和條例跟一百到一百零八年的個人自主病人自主權利法就是病主法相繼實施那兩法呢事實上是規定了病人可以在臨終前的自主決定照護方式那醫療機構當然需要尊重決定採取或不採取治療"},{"start":4089.417,"end":4094.062,"text":"那目的皆在避免過度的醫療並授權醫師醫病人的預例意願來採取採行緩和手段安眠緩和條例的確"},{"start":4105.256,"end":4131.259,"text":"末期病人透過一個預例醫療書來提出緩和的醫療要求大概只針對於末期病人病主法事實上相對適用的範圍比較廣我認為立法大有四個主要的重大的意義第一個是保護病人免受無效的醫療的折磨第二個是保障醫師合法執行不急救行為來避免觸法"},{"start":4132,"end":4146.836,"text":"第三個是讓病人跟家屬提早面對死亡的準備第四個是節省醫療的支援那身為民醫代表那大家就會接受到各方的一個針對於他們提出來的一些疑慮所以今天就來提出來"},{"start":4147.503,"end":4168.83,"text":"不管是醫院或醫師或病人對這個制度的疑慮也希望這個公聽會能夠共同大家理性的去做討論推動一些可行的方案那在醫院這一端就安寧療護事實上推行了20年使用率雖提升可是2022年大概也有6.7萬人接受"},{"start":4169.29,"end":4188.977,"text":"死亡前一年使用率达到30.4%可是医疗的量能还是很有限原因之一事实上是成本非常的高安宁疗护需由跨专业的团队来提供生理跟心理的照护医院如果不是凭借加分的话用意不高那床位成长就很有限"},{"start":4189.997,"end":4205.569,"text":"所以多數都是改成安民共照來替代那112年全台僅86家醫院915床114年降到85家910床那全位床位事實上非常稀缺導致病人需排隊"},{"start":4206.489,"end":4230.697,"text":"或的就是做跨科共照那醫生這一端的確剛剛如前面的兩位先生大概有會提到的一些糾紛所在就是說面對生命的時候醫生到底是穿上盔甲還是會感到迷茫呢因為病人自主實務上涉及到病人家屬跟醫護人員多方的意見常見家屬不同意病人做選擇的時候引發"},{"start":4232.077,"end":4252.512,"text":"医病的纠纷尽管安民条例跟病毒法医疗法跟医疗事故预防跟争议处理法保护医师免疫因不急救行为来处罚那搭配医疗事前告知跟争议的处理机制还是很难化解医生对生命责任跟输送风险的顾虑"},{"start":4254.653,"end":4277.124,"text":"病人這一邊事實上 育立醫療一組在整個的諮商費用大概是3000元對多數民眾來講還是屬於高價的雖然衛福部現在對弱勢有提供免費的服務 可是成效不彰因為只從2.4萬人提升到2.5萬人那有些縣市甚至動員街友來簽署以來增加的量"},{"start":4278.044,"end":4292.015,"text":"那即使衛福部今年會擴大到65歲以上重大傷病的患者潛在180萬人目標是4萬人可是我還是要指出民眾不簽不一定只有費用的問題而已而是面對死亡上的迫切感或還沒有思考過"},{"start":4294.597,"end":4312.194,"text":"另外就是2024年我們的受監護宣告人數總數字上是6047人其中18歲以上的話有5999人那其中以社會福利機構為監護人的有10件那監護人有執行受監護的生活那醫療"},{"start":4314.455,"end":4330.781,"text":"养护照顾跟我们的财产管理的职务可是阅历医疗的决定还是要本人来做签署所以监护人没有办法代为签署权所以安宁照护仅能依据医师的判断与监护人无关这是目前制度尚未厘清的问题"},{"start":4333.542,"end":4360.329,"text":"所以安寧照護養護就安寧療護絕對是一個很好的政策他實現病人自主善終的期待可面對到床位不足跟使用率偏低的現況跟安寧共照應延伸到社區共照發展成居家安寧機構安寧等在宅那個醫療模式讓病人有住院以外的選擇健保署當然也啟動了居家醫療照護整合計畫的2.0跟在宅"},{"start":4362.717,"end":4374.648,"text":"及政的招呼事辦計畫5月我在質詢的時候就獲得確認下半年呢將針對各類安民招呼進行品質平和給予最高30%的給付加成並規劃包月制的給付實現不同工不同酬"},{"start":4385.049,"end":4412.579,"text":"最後就是病人在宅安眠發生我們病危則送醫送到醫院病人在住宿機構安眠的時候發生病危或是在機構過世勢必導致發生醫療糾紛的比例大幅增加所以因此醫療的背後一定要有強大的支持系統也就是分級醫療院所所應該垂直整合的綠色通道那而且這綠色通道除了提供傳統的緊急救護住院"},{"start":4413.958,"end":4436.23,"text":"資源以外那人力技術支持也是一個重要的一環所以衛福部必須要建立重大的一個這個強大的後勤資源跟確保系統來能夠承擔安民的業務我剛剛也很贊成孫教授剛剛撥放那個黃錢總院長我也覺得事實上是不是有更多人能夠進來我覺得這事實上是"},{"start":4437.29,"end":4459.532,"text":"針對這株法我的看法可是我覺得不是只有這個所以我認為整個醫療決定到安寧照護的偵測體系裡邊希望能夠提高住宿機構的醫事人員的訪視費跟積極提升在宅醫療的量能還有能夠綠色通道的避免依舊來為住宿機構提供後勤的支援系統 以上謝謝"},{"start":4464.175,"end":4472.569,"text":"好 謝謝林委員那接下來請台北市立聯合醫院施治症中心的主任 劉建良來做發言"},{"start":4482.792,"end":4502.684,"text":"主席各位長官還有各位專家先進大家好那我沒有準備slide可是我想就前面的這個內容跟大家報告一下因為其實像我就是屬於那種就是像我跟孫主任常醫師還有廖醫師我們可能就是那種門診量也蠻多可是還是願意做ACPA醫生"},{"start":4503.664,"end":4524.622,"text":"那所以我們的想法是因為我們覺得這個東西對我們來說應該不是一個就是好像是談這個經濟或是談錢它是一個我自己照護病人我覺得它是一個必要的環節尤其我自己照顧的失智症病人ACP的這一塊其實我如果能夠從這個疾病的開始或是我開始照顧的開始我就先啟動"},{"start":4525.763,"end":4548.464,"text":"那我覺得對我後面要做這個安寧照護的這個全程的照護我覺得是一個蠻重要的一個概念所以我自己在做像我比較主要照顧的病人都是有關失症的病人那對我來說這個從頭到尾的這個服務其實是非常重要可是離開像這樣子會有一個全生命週期的疾病來談很多的疾病他是在某個階段大家都是配合的方式來進行"},{"start":4549.505,"end":4566.63,"text":"就在不同的生命的階段會有不同的人進來那這種的服務我覺得是現在比較常規的像我們這種從頭到尾一條龍這個其實是比較罕見的做法那這種分段式的這個照護就很仰賴就是前面的每個階段都要有合適的人先把事情做好"},{"start":4567.23,"end":4594.65,"text":"例如說我們要談後面的安寧要做好前面的ACP就要有人把他好好的做好而不是只是就是簡易的或是用一些很比較粗糙的方式去簽署然後到最後變得說他的家人不同意我們現在在討論這些事情其實是ACP沒做好所以安寧的團隊很痛苦其實都是這樣就是DNR沒談好然後後面就在那邊吵說我根本不知道然後才會有我們後面這些問題如果我們從一開始就把這件事情做好其實就不會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":4596.451,"end":4611.251,"text":"那我自己今天因為時間很短我想要談的還是第九條這個就是預理療照護諮商的這個提供機構要不要擴充這件事情我想說在我談一下我的想法之前我想先終結一下大家的想法其實大家都可以看到"},{"start":4611.872,"end":4634.002,"text":"其實一定有些優點跟缺點那我提一下像他的優點就是這些相關的不管是醫事機構以外像護理長照他們就是會有一群照顧的病人他們比較信任他然後他們也覺得有這個就是相信跟理解他們相信在這邊照顧他們比較理解他們所以他們在放下心防要簽署這件事情上是比較容易的"},{"start":4634.602,"end":4651.672,"text":"所以我其實在想醫療照護其實當然因為大家可能覺得病人跟醫生的關係很好所以會信任可是其實在某些機構裡面他們信任的可能是那個護理師那個護理長那個照顧他的那個阿天搞不好他跟他說叫他去簽他就會覺得這個好像跟我很重要所以我覺得這是他的優點"},{"start":4652.893,"end":4672.4,"text":"那第二個優點是我們當然可以透過這個方式增加我們服務的量能因為你開放很多人他就可以增加服務量能可是相對的他也會面臨一些其實大家一直都有提到一件事情就是那個訓練訓練的這個因為他們不會是只是上上課他們就可以做這件事情那為什麼在醫事機構裡面會需要團隊因為團隊有一個團隊的這個互相學習的這個動能"},{"start":4678.463,"end":4695.739,"text":"醫師護理師社工師跟心理師他們各自代表不同的角色醫生可以講疾病護理師可以講照護社工師可以談這個家庭動力跟這個資源心理師可以談這個末期的這個心理的照護透過這個團隊互相合作之後其實每一個人都可以去講這個ACP"},{"start":4696.88,"end":4722.149,"text":"可是那個訓練需要時間的我們都知道就像一個安寧的團隊也不是丟進去安寧病房就可以安寧病房最重要不是那個照護是那個團隊可以培養人的這個功能我覺得是非常的重要所以我覺得我覺得我自己來講如果談我的結論我覺得我是期待他可以被放寬因為我們現在未來這個需求越來越高放寬其實是必然的可是就面臨的問題就是我們可能要有一些但書"},{"start":4723.149,"end":4741.408,"text":"例如說我談就是這個訓練的這個部分也許可以透過幾個方式第一個就是跟醫院的做一個特約他會有個團隊第二個就是他也可以我們可以設定一些他要諮商多少的資格他才能夠獨立這樣子一個概念那第二個部分就是我也會談到就是說我們可能在這個"},{"start":4743.029,"end":4769.955,"text":"這個運作或這個執行單位的上面談這個不同的分級例如說針對醫院還有針對在這個單人檢疫的這些這些個案也許在這個給付上也可以做一些調整那我覺得這些的思考可能就是在一個我們想要放寬的這個概念的思考下去思考那我覺得這個這個方向是必然的為什麼因為我們未來如果需要簽署人越來越多現有的人力一定是不足以去支應"},{"start":4770.755,"end":4779.337,"text":"可是這個後面我覺得會有一些但書那這個但書我們其實是需要在另外的方式或是另外的場合再來討論以上謝謝主任時間還有剩各位難得來啦我簡單就超過一點時間各位都不用特別介意好不好讓大家可以上所欲言那甚至於第一輪講不過我們還可以第二輪"},{"start":4798.414,"end":4810.302,"text":"這個法非常重要,那我會請讓大家把這個事情講清楚一點,謝謝來接下來請台灣家庭醫學會秘書長,孫文隆秘書長來做發言主席各位先進大家好,我是孫文隆醫師"},{"start":4823.376,"end":4834.454,"text":"其實在接觸病毒法我是從105年那時候黃建書帶著我們從事辦然後一直到現在但是從那時候開始我就想說為什麼要規定醫師護理師來"},{"start":4838.328,"end":4866.718,"text":"為什麼不能一個人因為我107年我到巴黎去開會的時候我記得一個愛爾蘭的醫師他說他們在愛爾蘭他們就是家庭醫師嘛然後就是在診所裡面有一個類似會科室這樣子就醫師跟他坐在一起他就拿一本給他自己簽裡面都沒有選擇題全部都是問答包括你的網路上的名稱包括你的那個寵物要怎麼辦你都可以自己寫下來"},{"start":4868.078,"end":4868.501,"text":"那我們這邊為什麼要弄得這麼複雜"},{"start":4872.791,"end":4901.626,"text":"後來想說可能是因為有五大臨床條件所以醫師要參加但是真正實務上來看呢醫師能不能在這個溝通上ACP的溝通上發揮他的作用我曾經有一次去外出到桃園吧有一場那個團結ACP那就有一對夫婦來我說大哥大姐今天你們要來參加嗎那大哥就說沒有喔他上一場已經參加過了他是要給他的"},{"start":4902.546,"end":4914.303,"text":"帶他太太來我說好那要不要你來跟我們講一下你聽過的嘛他說沒有你講你講結果我講完了以後呢我說大哥你聽完了結果怎麼樣他說你怎麼你講的我都沒有聽過這表示什麼"},{"start":4918.171,"end":4936.305,"text":"品質的問題啦所以剛剛開放我完全贊同但是問題是怎麼樣孫老師要花腦筋讓這個品質能夠維持該講的要講甚至劉主任他剛才建議說要"},{"start":4938.752,"end":4954.421,"text":"講過幾個以後才能開始單獨來講,這其實都是一個好的辦法,怎麼樣維持這個品質比較重要其實一開始從安寧照顧基金會兩年後來到現在的企業病毒中心一直在監控這個品質,用OSCE嗎?"},{"start":4955.728,"end":4984.308,"text":"歐斯基又好像被人家派出來的人都是派他講得很好的出來好像看不到醫院的品質但是你說到實地訪查也看不到所以怎麼樣去維持這個品質當然這品質跟後面有沒有關係其實後續的緩和醫療執行才是大的問題啦病毒法針對成敗就是在緩和醫療到底這個跟安寧條例目的在什麼在山中嘛"},{"start":4985.336,"end":4998.222,"text":"對不對我們真的能夠讓病人能夠善終嗎能夠按照他想要的善終嗎這個其實才是最主要的如果大家都沒有辦法得到他想要的善終的話那為什麼我要花三千塊"},{"start":4999.994,"end":5018.277,"text":"對不對那在健保署的一次開會的時候我有跟署長建議說是不是可以開放要申請重大傷病的都要做過ACP至少他離他真正後面需要執行的疾病的方向可能會比較"},{"start":5019.198,"end":5041.406,"text":"比較近但是他現在目前是只有65歲以上但是至少我相信他還是會慢慢開放因為有重大傷病的有的真的一下子就很容易就進到他的疾病病程那王英偉署長前署長他之前他一直在講說要新加坡模式那新加坡那個陳醫師他在"},{"start":5044.577,"end":5072.628,"text":"應該是112年的時候曾經在聯義的那個國家研討會裡面他有講過新加坡模式他是兩次第一次就是監獄的就是政府出錢派一些受訓過的被施志工然後就去做他是免費的當民眾做但是他說是對一般的沒有還沒有重大生病沒有生病的民眾去做那等到他開始有生病以後呢他又"},{"start":5074.426,"end":5102.996,"text":"有做第二次的這是比較疾病特別的所以最近在應該是在宅醫藥學會辦過這種國際研討會他們好像講說是ACP無用論那其實這個是一個誤解因為這其實很複雜那跟國外的ACP他們講的跟我們國內講的ACP我們都是focus在它五大臨床條件那除了五大臨床條件以外呢"},{"start":5105.806,"end":5114.688,"text":"其實我們是家醫科醫師,我們是希望一個全能的照顧嘛那全能照顧基本上就是不管你怎麼樣,我們都到你到最後所以"},{"start":5115.851,"end":5137.341,"text":"我們目前但是目前我們的法律就是這樣定那是不是我們就是按能夠讓他更契合民眾的需要目的他是想要善終那是不是能夠更契合他善終而不要讓他花了錢結果又得不到他想要善終我想這個才是我們修法最重要的目的啊以上是我的意見謝謝好謝謝蘇秘書長的發言齁那接下來請陳昭之陳委員"},{"start":5150.058,"end":5162.05,"text":"謝謝主席 各位專家學者 各位行政官員 還有我這邊的同事生跟死都是人生的大事情我們沒有辦法決定自己如何出生 但我們希望都能夠參與選擇自己如何結束生命的一個過程 這就是"},{"start":5171.832,"end":5199.481,"text":"善终的权利以及尊重医疗自主这也是病毒法的基本精神但是这个病毒法从2019年上路到现在大概只有1%的台湾的成年人做出了医疗决定预先的医疗决定跟完成签署那这代表虽然说我们已经有了法源基础但是整个社会的认知跟实践"},{"start":5200.925,"end":5229.765,"text":"還是遙不可及甚至可以說是很漫長的一條路我一生都在醫院服務我最近的30年是在癌症醫院工作那我見過無數的生離跟死別我把疾病分為三種一種是不會疼痛也不會痛苦例如沒有合併症的高血壓一種是不會疼痛但會痛苦例如想要生孩子但是罹患勃應症"},{"start":5230.885,"end":5237.69,"text":"的人還有一種會痛苦也會有病痛例如癌症那我深深體會人能夠有尊嚴的"},{"start":5243.986,"end":5263.122,"text":"結束生命這是非常的福氣很遺憾因為台灣多數人並沒有簽署沒有簽出這個預歷醫療決定的這個簽署所以到最後面臨生命的終點的時候是任由命運跟疼痛病痛來擺佈他們苦家屬痛他們痛家屬苦"},{"start":5267.25,"end":5277.661,"text":"然後我也聽過很多家屬他為他們的家人做出了在臨終前做出了全力急救的這個決定後來他們都後悔了"},{"start":5280.243,"end":5303.694,"text":"2024年9月台灣民眾黨舉辦了一個生與死的記者會生是我一生努力推動的代理義母的法案另外一個就是尊嚴善終法剛剛也有提到安樂死這兩項都是本黨的優先法案代表我們對生育權跟尊嚴善終權的重視這幾年來從副大人先生"},{"start":5305.333,"end":5332.91,"text":"他遠赴國外安樂死到作家瓊瑤女士自我表達結束生命的方式越來越多人關注如何死亡這個議題那這件事就反映出當前的法規跟制度還有不盡周延之處以至於想要追求尊嚴善終的人們他必須用極端的方式甚至是遠赴海外的方式令人遺憾台灣是亞洲第一個"},{"start":5334.249,"end":5346.749,"text":"有完整保障病人自主權利專法的國家這是人權也是進步身為立法者我們很願意廣納意見尤其今天在座的專家學者們"},{"start":5349.133,"end":5367.343,"text":"我們來做適時的一個修正讓這項法案能夠更加完備要作為病人跟家屬面臨臨終議題的一個最堅強的後盾我希望每一個人都能夠在人生的最後一個階段可以自主的選擇告別的方式"},{"start":5368.143,"end":5380.572,"text":"安心的尊嚴的走完最後一層我相信這也是我跟立法院的同事們還有行政官員大家參與立法者的所有人的共同心願謝謝好謝謝陳昭志委員花言接下來請臨床心理師公會全國聯合會監事陳長長陳監事來做花言"},{"start":5395.685,"end":5417.604,"text":"主席各位長官還有各位專家我代表那個臨床心理師公會全國聯合會針對第九點也是今天的我們的提綱的第三點我提出一些看法第一個是有關就是說這個修正將為民眾帶來哪一些的具體的便利"},{"start":5419.127,"end":5438.132,"text":"就像我們衛福部這兩年所推動的青少年及青壯年心理支持方案受到民眾的稱讚對於國人心理健康的意識的提升有很大的幫助其中最重要的原因是它的可敬性有兩個意思一個是全國各地"},{"start":5438.792,"end":5460.715,"text":"提供服务的地点够多第二个是补助降低了接受服务的门槛而好的智商的经验也增加了未来面对压力的一个韧性所以如果我们要扩大这个ACP服务的一个量能的话让更多的人认识了解以及不排斥讨论生死的议题"},{"start":5461.676,"end":5484.708,"text":"就需要擴充現行的以醫療機構為主的一個服務的模式加入社區的服務系統包含護理機構長照機構心理治療所等等專業的機構那如此民眾可以就近的取得資源有關第二個問題深化社區照護與落實病人自主權有何重要的意義"},{"start":5485.548,"end":5505.83,"text":"ACP主要是提供民眾事先對於自己在某種生命狀態下要如何決定怎麼被對待的一個說明討論思考與做決定的一個過程在這個過程有的時候會需要一段的時間做他自己以及家屬的一個心理準備"},{"start":5506.671,"end":5526.046,"text":"可能要一两次甚至两三次的讨论也许还有可能更多才能够做出决定签署AD目前台湾已进入超高龄的社会年长者越来越多有很大的一个区块是属于健康亚健康的长者不太常去医院也忌讳到医院谈生死的议题"},{"start":5528.127,"end":5553.552,"text":"但往往一个不小心可能家属很容易就会落入旧与不旧的两难情境而如果透过在社区的宣导推广类似我们的私自的宣导类似我们的IC的宣导等等以及服务的系统可以降低讨论生死议题的一个门槛比起在医院而言在护理机构刚前面的医师有提到"},{"start":5554.938,"end":5577.09,"text":"長照機構 心理治療所等等他們較親民的一個環境那長者跟重要的親人討論這個議題可能是比較容易的而在健康亞健康的一個階段如果能夠透過ACP而有充分的討論後來也簽署了AD那麼在未來就能夠免除不必要的痛苦跟減少醫療資源的支出"},{"start":5578.351,"end":5592.5,"text":"下一個問題醫師不再是ACP的必要成員是否隕蕩雖然這個修正將導致醫師不是ACP的必要成員但某個程度上也可以解放現有醫療環境與醫師倫理的一個緊繃讓醫師能夠提供更多更好的臨床醫療服務"},{"start":5598.303,"end":5620.107,"text":"而且雖然透過社區機構提供育立醫療的諮商服務但因為社區機構通常是與附近診所或者是醫院保持一定的合作關係在簽署AD後的執行也會需要就近醫療院所的醫師來進行後續的協助如此在不同的地方著力對於民眾而言應該是一項利多"},{"start":5622.648,"end":5639.434,"text":"民眾可以以自己的狀態選擇不同的場域來進行了解雖然此修正將導致醫師不是ACP的必要成員但民眾真的有需要的時候本著社會上一般民眾普遍對於醫師專業角色的信賴與認同還是會到醫院醫療院所尋求醫師的ACP服務來做最後的確認也就是醫師是做最後最重要的推理"},{"start":5651.298,"end":5658.403,"text":"不需要談那麼多次花那麼多的時間而是生死議題本質就是會需要時間來溝通跟做決定如此呢ACP的歷程的分工也可以減輕醫師的負擔也可以讓這個育立醫療諮商的服務的效能最大化當然我想就是如果我們釋出到社區做的話當然剛剛前面"},{"start":5675.717,"end":5681.001,"text":"許多的專家學者提到的要這個品質的訓練這是非常重要的 以上謝謝"},{"start":5699.255,"end":5717.682,"text":"主席 各位長官 各位專家先進 大家好我之前服務在安寧照顧基金會10年安寧照顧基金會剛好是在承接105年的10月起承接衛福部有關病人自主權利法的推動跟品質的計畫"},{"start":5718.642,"end":5721.904,"text":"一直到109年所以這中間有籌備期跟已經上路的這個部分那我想在針對第九條的這個外擴ACP的場域的這個部分來做回應那在105年正式上路的時候其實我想在座的專家們大家就知道我們當時有一家南部的醫院他就以免費的ACP來跳脫我們當時大家還蠻意外的這樣的一個框架"},{"start":5746.657,"end":5762.032,"text":"那當然我想在那個過程當中他的把一些ACP的人數給沖了起來但是事實上在這樣一個免費的過程裡面我們就知道他的ACP並不是我們當初期待的這樣子的一個品質"},{"start":5762.933,"end":5780.835,"text":"那當然在我們承接計畫的時候我們另外一塊也針對在民眾的部分的推動推動跟教育的時候其實民眾就給我們的反應就是說我之後在我在那家醫院簽署之後我回頭參加了其他的宣導的時候我根本不知道我已經簽過了"},{"start":5782.156,"end":5803.53,"text":"因為在那個當下他覺得免費聽說是三千塊三千塊免費的事情我為什麼不去做但事實上他根本不知道他簽了什麼東西我想在那個階段的確是有點混亂那包括另外有一個民眾事後就跟我們回覆就是說他在那家醫院簽的時候其實他有很多的疑問但是他就是一個"},{"start":5805.552,"end":5808.935,"text":"團體或者是根本都是互相陌生的情況下然後依著時間然後就被就是push趕快簽這樣的事情所以當下他有問過那這個請問這個臨床條件一的末期是指什麼"},{"start":5821.205,"end":5848.435,"text":"他們的ACP團隊人員說這就是癌症就是這樣所以我覺得那個訊息是錯亂的所以回過頭來我想現在不是在講說那家醫院的做法而是回頭再看就是說在我們限定在醫療機構的時候其實就已經有一些狀況是產生了那何況是我們在看到如果我們今天外擴到這些不論長照機構或者是其他的心理治療所之類的我們可以"},{"start":5849.455,"end":5863.641,"text":"了解就是有些擔心就是說現在在這樣的外擴機構他們其實有點良秀不起我講坦白話是有點這樣所以這樣的外擴其實我覺得如果配套如果不是一個很完善的情況下那就來"},{"start":5864.941,"end":5887.885,"text":"直接來擴未來會不會有更多的亂象以外那如果到時候我們發現這些亂象然後來檢討說那這段期間到底他們簽的AD未來能不能採納或者又會有什麼樣的狀況我覺得那個後面的收拾會是更令人擔心的那當然我想現在一直我們在社區已經"},{"start":5888.564,"end":5907.266,"text":"布里這邊在推動不論在社區甚至於前陣子很多的研擬在遠距的這個部分這個是漸進的一個逐步我們去看到效果好不好最重要品質如何然後再來回頭慢慢再來逐步改善再加上所以我想這個配套真的是在概念上在"},{"start":5908.267,"end":5935.825,"text":"簽署量跟品質之間如何取得一個平衡是我們在乎的那之前跟著那個契捐的病毒中心去做一些訪查我可以看到其實蠻多的醫療機構他們會的ACP的成員團隊他們會因著他們自己的量能跟能力去做調整比如說好我這個團隊裡面我的色性人員比較強那可能醫生他就是進來做一些他該做的醫療說明之後"},{"start":5937.186,"end":5960.396,"text":"他就先離開他停留的時間未必需要全程那當然我們並沒有去說這樣對或不對但是他們做這樣子一個調整我覺得這是一個減少可能在一些醫院端他們的人力不足或者是人力覺得時間上的占用太多來做一點調整會依照他們的量人好那另外針對第12條的部分"},{"start":5963.345,"end":5979.822,"text":"在講到可以醫院人自己上傳的這個部分我想接續在第九條來看的話我覺得這是一個把關的問題我之前在跟了很多家醫院在看他們的團體諮商的因為我們一直在在意說"},{"start":5980.462,"end":5993.86,"text":"他們到底團體智商的品質如何那這個團體智商我就舉一個例子我之前看一個那他有將近六十個人那他有分六組那每一組十人這樣然後每一個每一組都有一個桌長一個組長在幫他們做解釋那"},{"start":5997.52,"end":6025.468,"text":"安寧團隊做說明總體說明以後就讓各組去做討論跟提問然後最後我看到的有一個個案一個醫院人他就簽維持生命治療他勾一那那個人工營養流體餵養勾四這樣子全部五個臨床條件都是這樣子所以我那時候心裡就納悶說哇那你到底是要活還是不要活就是有點掙扎了好我就看這家醫院他們怎麼去處理他們在最後每一個醫院人要"},{"start":6026.248,"end":6042.243,"text":"拿出來就說好我已經簽鎖完AD我要拿給你們用印的時候他們有一個ACP的成員就幫他check那check的時候這個成員就check到你這個的確是怪怪的他就會跟他多問那你為什麼這個都勾4那你的期待是什麼那醫院人大家都想得很簡單這個"},{"start":6048.708,"end":6069.685,"text":"這個飲流管啊吃很重要啊所以我要所以我想在團體ACP裡面我們就已經很難免會有這樣的狀況了那但是至少有團隊在把關那未來如果自己上傳的時候就像呼應剛剛劉主任跟孫主任在提的如果我們前面沒有做好的ACP簽好的合適的ADE後面的團隊執行的確會有很多的問題"},{"start":6073.228,"end":6087.233,"text":"所以我在這邊總結我的意見就是我希望可能在很多的很重要的這些修法的部分一定要配套先很清楚再來做修法這個動作這個是我比較擔心在品質的部分好 以上謝謝好 謝謝林總監的花言接下來請我們陳新輝委員來做花言"},{"start":6102.312,"end":6122.908,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位官員以及在座非常多關心ACP病人自主法的專家學者剛都非常專心的聆聽各位發言還有各位其實在網路上也有許多撰寫的文章那我們辦公室也都仔細的把它研究過為什麼今天會有這樣子的空聽會是因為前幾天我們在做病主法的修法過程的時候"},{"start":6123.729,"end":6149.521,"text":"在座已經我們胃黃委員會已經有很多醫學專業也有很多社政的專家但我們始終還圍繞在為什麼我們的簽署率會這麼低呢還有是不是政府的補助不足以至於讓最需要的人沒有辦法簽署到還有開放的場域是不是不夠多沒有辦法reach到更多需要的人以及我們是不是應該要讓擁有更多身份的專業人士來做這個執行"},{"start":6152.142,"end":6169.131,"text":"那因為當場大家各執己見所以我就問劉建國召委說還是我們辦一個公聽會然後實際去考察讓我們這些立法委員可以走一遍ACP的流程這樣子我們可以對立法的品質更加精進那我也很感謝劉召委有聽進去這樣子的聲音所以下午我們會有個考察但因為我有個會談所以前幾天我就已經先帶著我們全辦公室的團隊去了我們到了這個"},{"start":6181.338,"end":6205.1,"text":"這個中校醫院在座的這個廖醫師也到了現場還有很多廖醫師的同事剛也有精彩的發言我們所有團隊成員花了近兩個小時去實際run一次ACP另外呢我們也有提出這個修法過程中許許多多的真典來詢問一下臨床實際操作經驗的人他這樣子的看法"},{"start":6205.74,"end":6213.248,"text":"因為我自己本身也是醫師以前在婦產科病房會有很多腹癌末期的臨終的個案所以在這個"},{"start":6215.377,"end":6229.652,"text":"簽署這些這個內容我是覺得像我自己是婦產科那廖醫師是加一科可是我們距離急重症有一段時間我們如果去執行這件事也會需要一點時間來refresh我們才有辦法所以剛剛一直提到的品質訓練過程是真的很重要那我會舉一些比較口語的案例"},{"start":6239.682,"end":6260.081,"text":"我們第一點先來講說參與人員就做執行ACP AD的人員的專業度還有可以進行的場所到底應該要怎麼做那當天我們至少是要有一名醫師一名護理師還有一位社工師那主要是由專業人士來主講比如說醫師或者是後續我們有討論也許有過急重症經驗有過安寧經驗"},{"start":6264.565,"end":6272.448,"text":"的資深的護理師也有辦法可以辦到那當然就是討論幾種醫療情形下會依照病人的意願來決定要不要使用生命維持啊營養餵食啊等等那我就舉一些當場我們就有助理提出來的例子比如說廖醫師會重複的跟我們問如果這個癌症已經復發第三次了你覺得算不算在我們這個末期病人的標準裡面"},{"start":6293.783,"end":6316.012,"text":"可能我們如果去這個李明活動中心每個人都會覺得對阿癌症復發第三次應該就是末期病人但其實不是這個認定的標準是非常嚴格的那再來像我們其中有一個助理他是自己心臟衰竭所以他曾經放過葉克膜然後等待心臟捲整所以他就有提出說像這個外傷"},{"start":6318.374,"end":6323.499,"text":"超過6個月那如果我在放葉克蒙我已經先簽了這個ACP可是我遲遲還沒有等到"},{"start":6324.847,"end":6352.865,"text":"等到我的心臟那這個ACP對我未來的醫療救治會不會有什麼影響他很快就會連接到他生命中的一些經驗或者是他看到親友們面臨的狀態等等以及不可逆轉的昏迷跟植物人到底有什麼差別這個也是需要有一些資深的臨床經驗或是你實際上有在這些接觸過這樣子善終的病人你才有辦法去讓一般沒有"},{"start":6353.725,"end":6375.857,"text":"沒有這種臨床經驗沒有醫學經驗的人可以聽得懂的狀態那像是這個營養餵食我們其中一個辦公室成員他就說他曾經有接受過鼻胃管他連一秒鐘都沒有辦法忍受那他這種一秒鐘都沒有辦法忍受是不是在他簽署ACP AD的過程會變得比人家更為激進嗎"},{"start":6377.097,"end":6391.39,"text":"就類似這樣子的狀況我們都不再提出那也有人他遇到說家裡剛好有久病臥床的阿嬤他為了要放置是不是要放置鼻胃管或者是要從胃來打動家屬經歷了極大的爭吵"},{"start":6394.933,"end":6399.636,"text":"所以他也會在這個過程中他會想要來做ACP跟AD可是他會有很多疑問嘛他會想要問說那這種不同的營養給予請問我在什麼意識之下會有什麼樣的感覺那它分別會有什麼副作用等等你在做這些溝通的過程其實是需要臨床經驗才有辦法所以剛一再的提到說訓練的品質"},{"start":6419.789,"end":6446.403,"text":"這個的確是在我們實際run裡面會深刻的感受到那當然在這個醫師解釋重度失智的定義也跟一般我們認定的重度失智的定義好像很不一樣當然大家覺得已經這樣已經算很嚴重了因為失智正常在很多影集或是電影裡面都會有演繹到結果我們認定的嚴重其實在這個ACP AD根本還不算嚴重也不符合"},{"start":6447.163,"end":6472.232,"text":"那這個是很多這個溝通的過程中我覺得真的是我們到底全聯會之前有提出我們到底是要追求很高的簽署率還是我們希望他的理解程度跟專業程度是有牽連的他是真心的在理解他最後每一個過程然後知道他要做什麼決定然後他去做的這樣子的"},{"start":6473.492,"end":6500.299,"text":"過程那當然講到這個開放的場域我覺得聯誼已經非常有經驗了等一下醫師們應該也會分享他們其實也會到一些公司團體或者是宗教團體或者是靈敏活動中心一起去做團體的諮商不過在他們大部分的經驗ACP跟AD就會連結起來因為你講解完剛好你也有見證人或是你有親友陪伴你就直接簽署了"},{"start":6501.919,"end":6525.312,"text":"剛講到有這麼多複雜的這些併程你如果把ACP跟AD拆開基本上你聽完第一次到你過了很久又去簽第二次這些東西你需要重新再理解一次是一定會忘記的啦不容易 對所以它如果可以連結在一起其實是最為方便那擴大這些場域我是個人是覺得贊成 贊成的"},{"start":6527.133,"end":6550.206,"text":"那但是如果提供這個ACP AD的人還是認為如果大家覺得醫生人數太少或是醫生的服務量能不足我們還是要仔細去思考是不是要有急重症安寧照護等等的資深專科護理師來做會比較適合但我覺得大家方向是一致的"},{"start":6550.606,"end":6577.437,"text":"大家在座所有的人今天其實都是想要讓可以適用ACP的這個人數可以增加並且讓台灣的人民更能深切的感受到生命教育的重要等等以上是我們上次去考察最後的結論那我也希望說稍微下午考察完以後我們下下禮拜有機會繼續來做修法的過程我們可以再進行更深刻的討論這樣以上謝謝"},{"start":6580.097,"end":6598.428,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員我以為你要跟我說你已經去考察完了我們下午不用去了因為你繼續你你的說明了好 接下來請蔡東華人器官監證遺址登錄及病人自主推廣中心我們科同文科副執行長來做法演 謝謝"},{"start":6604.644,"end":6630.747,"text":"主席委員各位長官大家好其實在思考說我們開放諮商機構跟到底有沒有醫生在這個諮商團隊裡面是不是有直接對應之前我現在先提供一個比較接收到普遍的一個現象就是提供給各位長官跟委員來做個參考因為中興在4年前就開始進行善中善法的推廣"},{"start":6632.388,"end":6653.15,"text":"從4年前我們就是常常接收到民眾的就是我們一個免付費電話那其實我們一年大概接收到大概500多通的民眾的電話來去反映就是有關於病主跟安寧之間的裡面的一些意見那當時從一開始大家對於病主法其實是不是很認知的狀態通常都會問說病主法是什麼"},{"start":6653.851,"end":6681.503,"text":"自己的狀況是不是可以做簽署那或者是說他跟安寧的區別是什麼或許我們醫療同仁很認知這件事但是民眾一般民眾是不知道的那然後就是說誰可以參加又怎麼樣去做溝通這件事然後一直到近幾年民眾的問題就幾乎已經慢慢的就是越來越多是轉手轉到說對於病毒法五種臨床條件他們的差異到底在哪裡"},{"start":6682.603,"end":6702.01,"text":"然後再來就是說病人會以自身的疾病狀況去對應這五種臨床條件打電話到中心來做詢問那以中心的狀況他就比如說他會問到說請問一下不可逆轉的昏迷跟永久植入人到底差異是在哪裡"},{"start":6703.882,"end":6726.098,"text":"對 其實現在民眾開始漸漸就是會詢問到這樣的問題另外也有民眾會問到 以親人例子問到說其實媽媽或爸爸的狀況其實都已經因為我們現在的資訊非常多就已經感受到默契的狀況那醫生對於這樣的條件他已經簽署了那為什麼沒有說再進行下一步"},{"start":6726.738,"end":6742.979,"text":"或是不是该进行下一步的状态有时候其实中心是没有办法去回应这样的这一个状况的刚刚其实委员有提到其实品质是很重要的但是我们也要回归到说到底民众的需求"},{"start":6744.15,"end":6764.539,"text":"是什麼當他們在做諮商的時候他們想要聽到的又是什麼那如果政策上是全面要推廣ACP的狀況的話那一般民眾大家來講說都是健康的一般民眾他們所要的一個醫療的一個專業度跟討論的內容跟疾病期"},{"start":6765.299,"end":6781.006,"text":"就是例如重症或者是像是多重慢病或像是剛剛提到的有關末期的病人他們想希望接收到的醫療專業度可能就會不一樣那是不是可以思考說因為對象的不同其實我們提供的諮商內容"},{"start":6782.816,"end":6800.713,"text":"可能就會不同那可能就可以回歸到說今天第九條提到的我們的諮商團隊的人員到底提供民眾什麼樣子的一個內容我想今天就是以這樣子的一個接收到的一個開放現象提供各位長官跟委員來做參考謝謝"},{"start":6804.476,"end":6815.928,"text":"好 謝謝柯副執行長的發言那接下來請台北市立聯絡醫院家醫科主治醫師廖宏文廖醫師來做發言廖醫師我們就休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":6820.41,"end":6841.349,"text":"主席 委員 還有各位 先敬大家早我是家庭醫學科 中校院區家庭醫學科 廖弘醫師那很開心可以在今天跟各位分享就我在臨床做ACP的一些經驗那我就針對這個提綱來一一跟大家做分享那提綱一的部分是在講這個修正草案第四條第三項 鄰定關係人不得妨礙醫療機構執行病人"},{"start":6846.053,"end":6865.771,"text":"預歷醫療決定法律上是這樣說沒有錯但其實我自己走過一輪問我們真正在集中診科的學長姐學弟妹說病人如果他們因為大家可能還太癢就是可能也沒有看過AD的病人那就算真的有其實我們也不太一定醫生因為醫生沒有啟動他其實沒有違法"},{"start":6867.154,"end":6880.587,"text":"對好然後醫生如果沒有主動去啟動他但家屬也不想要比如說爸爸本來是先不要救的但女兒可能就覺得爸爸不行我一定要幫他放我一定要幫他急救那這時候醫生會主動去啟動嗎"},{"start":6882.348,"end":6907.717,"text":"不一定因為會有醫療糾紛的其實是家屬所以就是說雖然這個立法上也是非常的良善的要去保護病人的決定但是像其實醫生在臨床執行上還是就是會有他的這個delay然後第二個部分其實是想跟大家分享就是AD的啟動它是需要兩個專科醫師的確認然後再開兩次緩和會議"},{"start":6911.818,"end":6935.404,"text":"然後去confirm說病人真的是有這樣他已經落入這五種臨床清淨然後我們要按照他簽的這個東西來幫他執行但這個在醫院是有辦法做到的但在居家或是機構就不一定除非你可以找到兩個專科醫師所以他在醫院是ok但在機構或是居家其實是有他的執行上的困難"},{"start":6937.281,"end":6959.238,"text":"然後再來我想要討論的是第三點就是修正草案第九條第一項第一款就是想要擴大這個諮商的機構到這個護理機構長照機構以及心理治療所的部分那剛才我們的這個劉主任有提到說其實我們的ACP的團隊他是需要有一個"},{"start":6960.078,"end":6980.888,"text":"醫師然後一個護理師再加上一個心理師或社工師那這樣子的角色設計它其實是可以讓就是ACP有不同不同職類的專家然後來去協助病人去更了解說如果真的到了末期或者是不可逆轉的昏迷或是永久植入人或是集中度失智的時候那個時候我人會是長什麼樣子啊"},{"start":6983.709,"end":7001.941,"text":"那我想要接受什麼樣的照顧所以這其實是一個多角色的一個諮詢那我們剛才有講到就是ACP、AD他主要的內容就是我人如果有哪一天就是進到了末期不可逆轉的昏迷永久植物人"},{"start":7002.679,"end":7027.585,"text":"急重度失智或是其他政府公告寒病的時候我對於這些維持生命治療還有人工營養和流體餵養有什麼想法那就是在我很清醒的時候做註記所以我剛講了就很多很多這些其實都是醫學名詞末期是哪一些疾病是末期然後不可逆轉昏迷跟永久支援又有什麼不一樣"},{"start":7028.735,"end":7049.72,"text":"然後集中度失智我們要怎麼樣去診斷他怎樣叫集中度啊然後還有維持生命治療民眾真的知道自己就是拒絕的醫療範圍有哪一些嗎比如說像是CPR或是葉克膜呼吸器然後血液製劑還有癌症的治療還有抗生素"},{"start":7050.66,"end":7063.904,"text":"那這些其實還是要有經有專業訓練過就是臨床經驗的醫師或者是像剛才陳情惠主委提到的可能是需要到有內外科或是集中症經驗的護理師來擔任就是這個主講人還有主持人會是比較合適的"},{"start":7070.796,"end":7090.08,"text":"那再來就是這個場域的部分啊如果是要擴及這個社區就是可以擴大的話其實社區也不是只有護理機構長照機構跟心理治療所因為大部分的民眾其實他很健康清醒然後每天都去上下班他不會進去護理機構啊也不會進去長照機構那當然就是這些機構我們也可以去推廣但他只是社區的一部分如果真的"},{"start":7098.101,"end":7113.329,"text":"要推廣到社區的話其實像我們醫院在做的很多就是我們有到這個職場比如說像是福治然後再來就是我們也會在里長的里長或是這個社區的活動中心居民活動中心其實我們也會去演講跟分享"},{"start":7114.349,"end":7130.021,"text":"然後如果真的是有這樣的需求的話其實我們也可以用行動整建的方式比如說就是醫師啊然後護理師然後再加上醫師護理師然後再加上社會公司然後我們只要準備電腦還有讀卡機其實就可以去操作了"},{"start":7131.138,"end":7149.864,"text":"好 那再來就是提升量能的部分就是剛才孫秘書長有提到其實我們是需要很well training的這個諮詢的人員那最後就是要怎麼樣在很好的這個training然後以及在擴大量能去做一個權衡然後再去推廣ACP那就是由來孫教授來繼續帶領我們大家 謝謝"},{"start":7159.988,"end":7163.182,"text":"謝謝蕭醫師的花言那我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7888.871,"end":7894.517,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請王振旭委員來做說明"},{"start":7904.751,"end":7924.841,"text":"主席還有包括在場的運動委員還有各位專家學者還有我們的政府官員們大家好很感謝主席這麼英明又拍了一次公聽會因為在兩個禮拜前大家在主條討論的時候的確也有不同的想法跟意見"},{"start":7926.142,"end":7954.224,"text":"那個時候只有三條結果大家意見比較一致可是很多很多在落實的部分需要透過更多的討論所以今天謝謝主席把這麼重要的法案又透過今天的公聽會來讓大家有更多的機會來聚焦一些重點同時也期待在未來很快就有機會再進入主條的過程當中取得所有的共識然後讓這部"},{"start":7955.325,"end":7968.458,"text":"法案在修正的時候可以更為全面的來落實未來我們在執行這個病毒法的時候可以真正幫助到社會來讓我們所有的努力都能夠非常成功的達到這個目標"},{"start":7970.885,"end":7997.321,"text":"那我們也了解說要弱子病主法的話其實要有幾個面向第一個就是要尊重我們需要尊重這個病人的自主意願來保障病人善終的權益那當然這個也要涉及如果有需要用到醫療資源的話如何能夠讓他合理的分配那如果我們希望讓這個過程可以更順利當然如何能夠提供"},{"start":7998.101,"end":8019.209,"text":"好的國民健康生命的這些教育的更落實這些政策方面大家都必須要繼續努力其實我們也知道賴總統在日前健康台灣全國論壇的時候也特別強調我們的醫療必須要以人為本以人為本其中當然包括就是推動安寧"},{"start":8020.249,"end":8040.402,"text":"照顧跟這個尊嚴善終這個都是非常重要的議題所以我們其實是在期待讓這樣的處理過程可以真的落實到對病人或者是對民眾不管是在生靈自主或者是未來在醫療做決定的時候最重要的一個好的方式"},{"start":8041.363,"end":8067.294,"text":"那我們也理解過去自從這個病毒法實施以後到目前將近5年的時間似乎成效真的很讓人家覺得必須要趕快來改善這樣的困境因為只有不到1%的民眾在了解自主法病毒法以後呢真的來透過ACP簽署AD等等來達到這樣的目標"},{"start":8069.995,"end":8085.402,"text":"那大家也討論過非常多原因包括說可敬性不夠這是第一點那第二點呢就是這個諮商會如果是自費的時候的確這個諮商會3000元對一般的民眾來講他的負擔還是一筆重大的負擔"},{"start":8088.704,"end":8104.512,"text":"那另外就是民眾的觀念其實還不太容易接受即使大家很努力的去推廣這樣的概念可是很多民眾還是比較無法去討論說為什麼在健康的時候要跟我討論死亡"},{"start":8105.232,"end":8133.057,"text":"这个当然这个是需要大家共同继续在努力那第四个其实困境最大的可能就是我们的这个要件规定的非常的严格他必须要有医师必须要有其他的医疗人力不管是护理师也好心理师也好社工师也好那另外就是我们要求除了来签署想要表达意愿的这个个人以外还需要包括他的家人"},{"start":8134.177,"end":8157.495,"text":"就整體的這個門檻就拉得非常非常的高所以其實我們期待就是如何能夠去改善這些狀況那改善這些狀況的話基本上就可以從改善政策跟改善法規如何能夠讓他的處理可以更周全那在政策方面我們當然也理解就是要能夠提高諮商的可敬性"},{"start":8158.556,"end":8177.218,"text":"還有如果可以的話在醫療團隊的部分能不能夠納入大家醫計劃當然擴大健保給付現在剛剛次長有跟大家報告目前有往這個方向在做處置當然強化這個政策的宣傳也是很重要的部分"},{"start":8177.919,"end":8203.152,"text":"所以我们针对这个咨询会的负担如果从原来的需要自费改变成有条件情形之下能够纳入健保给付的确可以能够有机会来把这个量能可以做放宽那事实上5月1号针对65岁以上的有重大伤病或者是参与这个家庭医师整合性照顾计划或全社区计划65岁以上多重慢性病的病人"},{"start":8204.432,"end":8221.602,"text":"預估會達到這個180萬人這個是目前已經可以持續在增加這個量能服務的機會那當然在這個過程裡面需要更多的醫療機構來協助依照現在的法定要求之下目前也有到達將近300家的醫療機構"},{"start":8223.883,"end":8243.006,"text":"可以來提供這樣的服務那在法規的部分我認為需要兩個部分然後一個就是針對於在這個不同的層次來處理的話有關於目前在這個討論病毒法同時我們也希望衛福部能夠持續研議執法修正的可能性"},{"start":8243.667,"end":8264.511,"text":"因為我們知道相關法規裡面其實有訂了執法那個執法的話可以將育立一族的諮商納到大家醫或社區醫療的照護企劃裡面希望能夠在短時間就能夠透過這個行政部門先行讓這個諮商的可敬性跟負擔的部分可以得到好的一個幫助"},{"start":8265.632,"end":8286.61,"text":"那當然最重要還是針對病毒法本身進行修法那這個修法我剛剛提過只有在上一次在主條討論的時候是只有三條得到共識那不過後來也跟孫老師謝謝孫老師能夠有機會讓我們多表達我們在修法當中的一些想法跟所要"},{"start":8287.35,"end":8313.189,"text":"擔心的部分那針對部分條文的修正裡面第10條的醫療委員代理人相關規範的修正跟第4條新增臨床醫療過程當中書面表示的意思這部分事實上我覺得如果能夠透過這樣的修法來改善目前實務的這些面臨的問題的話其實我們是非常認同而且會希望能夠朝這個方向來做調理"},{"start":8313.869,"end":8337.214,"text":"那我想到目前為止今天早上大家很討論重點之一就是第九條如何能夠讓這個諮商機構除了剛剛所提到我們法律所規範的這個要件的同時能不能夠做這方面的調整那其實早上聽到的意見也都蠻多元的"},{"start":8337.854,"end":8351.655,"text":"所以大家也知道這樣的調整一定是有它的優點那當然也會面臨在調整以後是不是有其他的困難或困境包括量跟這個"},{"start":8353.257,"end":8380.671,"text":"量能當中如何得到好的平衡那尤其在品質的部分如何能夠把關我們也都了解其實醫療真的是有它的複雜性也有它的在面臨當中不同的階段會碰到不同的困境包括如何做好的適合個人的選擇其實我自己在照顧癌症病人那麼多年的經驗裡面"},{"start":8382.092,"end":8405.74,"text":"在不同的階段病人的選擇是完全不一樣那我們這部法案裡面其實有包括五大種可以做這個選擇的這些疾病對癌症的所有說明我有把握我可以讓所有的病人跟他的家人知道當他離癌以後碰到困境他應該有哪一些的選項"},{"start":8407.06,"end":8426.299,"text":"可是癌症病人以外的人其實我並沒有那麼有把握我的意思是在說我們即使這一個很專業的一個醫師其實有時候面臨這樣的困境的時候都會很困難的讓這個病人做決定的話那如果"},{"start":8426.9,"end":8451.192,"text":"沒有受過完整的醫療專業那尤其剛剛很多家庭醫學的這些專家還有神經科內科像這樣的表達我們也知道其實有他一定的困境那這樣的困境是不是其他的團隊的同仁他們同時也能夠掌握到這個醫療需求這個就是我們在當初討論的時候如何能夠在"},{"start":8452.372,"end":8476.589,"text":"這個量能增加的同時這個品質如何能夠去維持這個其實我相信也是在五年前提出這個病株好的時候為什麼要把那個要件定的那麼高是有它一定的道理所以我們現在如果要擴大這樣的這個團隊的服務模式真的要非常非常的注意未來在執行當中可能碰到的困境或者是前後帶來的問題"},{"start":8477.93,"end":8498.922,"text":"那如何去解決現在的困難當然如果能夠在現有的這個條件之下把不同的機構的資源能夠拉在一起相信至少未來如果我們先透過這個模式來執行那應該不久也許一年也許兩年我們就可以透過"},{"start":8500.823,"end":8524.809,"text":"這個目前的法令之下所規範的這個團隊運作希望可以有非常多的這些執行的經驗那為我們未來再提供如何做這個病毒法做後續修正或者是後續討論的時候重要的基礎所以我們很期待就是有更多的討論同時我們也必須要去累積"},{"start":8526.169,"end":8547.848,"text":"我們所謂的臨床的這些給我們可以提供好的數據來作為討論的基礎現在的醫療都強調所謂的Evidence based就是我們必須要有好的證據來支持我們應該做哪一些的調整做哪一些的改善這樣期待透過這樣的方式能夠讓這個"},{"start":8549.589,"end":8578.729,"text":"服務的量能跟品質之間可以透過我們的努力達到這樣的目標其實我相信大家對於生命教育的推動都非常有感也認同這個是非常非常必要的所以我們很期待政府應該有更多跨部會的這些合作的關係同時也希望透過大家共同的努力力來包括把各國的經驗也讓我們來參考我相信"},{"start":8579.669,"end":8593.488,"text":"我們繼續努力我們就有機會透過更多的力量透過更好的方式未來再執行ACP、AD甚至剛剛有提到如何結合後端的安寧緩和的醫療"},{"start":8595.551,"end":8616.931,"text":"來讓我們的民眾除了有感以外也真的能夠照顧到我們全台灣民眾對於生命自主對於如何能夠達到善終的目標包括我自己在內我都很期待未來在座的各位還有我們所有的關心的家人跟民眾都能夠善終以上是我的表達謝謝"},{"start":8619.261,"end":8624.423,"text":"好 謝謝王智旭委員的發言跟表達相關的意見那接下來我們請財團環南臺灣在宅醫療學會秘書長葉依林 葉秘書長來做發言 謝謝"},{"start":8636.363,"end":8658.223,"text":"好 謝謝主席 以及在場各位長官以及夥伴我是台灣在宅醫療學會葉依林我過去其實現在也是東海大學社工系的助理教授但是其實9年前我是在北市聯合醫院的社工師我是安寧社工師當初也是人人創新書院在協助做修法的一個推動者"},{"start":8659.224,"end":8686.897,"text":"那其實當初接觸病毒法是那個監書那時候來接了聯一的一個委辦計畫那所以ACP一開始的時候並不是天上掉下來他一定是醫療機構來做執行他其實在國外他也並不是一定醫療機構在推動只是當時在大家都不知道什麼是ACP的情況之下由醫療機構先來做一個推動那我必須講一下醫療機構推動我做一個社工他到底做些什麼事情"},{"start":8687.637,"end":8692.424,"text":"他其實不是只有醫師進去做了ACP像剛剛委員去參訪的那一個經驗裡面我們醫療機構在推ACP的時候我們還要做Pre-ACP像我們社工民眾來說他要做的時候我們還要一一打電話去確認你要帶二金等家屬來"},{"start":8704.781,"end":8729.113,"text":"所以一個機構一個諮商機構他要做PRE-ACP聯絡民眾完成PRE-ACP之後我要做媒合要去聯繫醫生醫療團隊哪個護理師有資格可以執行最後民眾來的時候我再來接待他們然後完成這個ACP的程序之後接下來我要做登打就是要把這個AD放到電腦裡面把它一一打上去這個叫做第九條裡面的醫療機構為諮商機構醫療機構所要負擔的責任"},{"start":8734.756,"end":8746.978,"text":"所以當初在大家都不知道的情況之下我們開始做聯醫做了一個很成功的模式之後我們想要對外推動那對外推動的難處我們有這個整個台灣的那個示範醫院的輔導計畫大家就知道我們示範醫院要去輔導一家診所或是其他的醫療機構做這件事情的時候我們不是只有輔導這個團隊喔我們還要輔導他怎麼去推動前面的PACP媒合是誰 中間的執行是誰那後面如果民眾要來變更怎麼辦"},{"start":8764.301,"end":8778.375,"text":"所以我們去接觸這些診所甚至要去輔導這些診所並不是醫生他們很不熱情或者是很沒有意願而是他們真的沒有能力沒有量能人力非常的短缺所以基於這個立場其實我們並沒有要排除醫師這樣子的人員進來我覺得他對我們的幫助很大"},{"start":8783.96,"end":8811.073,"text":"但是資商機構本身他如果開放的話他其實是可以幫助這個ACP的團隊讓他們更有能力去專注在所謂的ACP的溝通過程裡面包括說像是前面的聯繫像這個診所如果說今天我開放是社工師或是心理師的事務所成為一個資商機構的話他可以把前面的PAC的部分聯繫的部分都做好"},{"start":8812.013,"end":8820.159,"text":"接下來我們就會看說這個民眾他是屬於健康期的民眾還是他是屬於疾病期的民眾如果諮商機構看這個自詢民眾其實他就是一個年輕人那他對於這個他所需要的這個知識量能的部分其實由一個受有專業訓練的心理師或社工師或是一個認證人員就可以處理的那就是屬於健康期的育立要招呼諮商"},{"start":8836.71,"end":8856.089,"text":"那他重點應該focus在他怎麼跟家庭共融怎麼讓他的家庭知情所以這件事情要由常常在做疾病救治的醫師來做處理嗎其實他不一定的所以現在他另外一群是他是一個ACP他是個疾病期的他是個慢性病那諮商機構本身他就可以媒合剛剛我們"},{"start":8857.63,"end":8879.496,"text":"長官所提到的我們的在宅團隊或者是居家醫療的醫師這是外展這是合作來提供這個疾病期的ACP的協助那甚至於民眾再嚴重一點他到醫院醫療院所裡面去很謝謝健保署健保署也有提供補助所以民眾也可以選擇說我在我用這個健保署的補助來做疾病期的ACP"},{"start":8880.336,"end":8896.498,"text":"所以這整個連續的過程裡面我們應該是要去看民眾的需求或者病人的需求去提供這個ACP的服務而現在限縮在醫療院所底下的ACP就會讓這一些家庭共融啦或者是一些家庭關係的這些部分相當的弱化"},{"start":8897.119,"end":8907.926,"text":"譬如說像現在都是比較聚焦在我今天五款零元條件的解說夠不夠仔細就是因為很多時候我們其實是缺乏心理師或是社工師或者是更多的時間來去陪伴或者去溝通這樣的一個過程所以第九條這個部分當然我們在在醫療學會這邊我們有很多的在在醫療在在志願診所其實常常都是一人一師他們其實是沒有護理師的所以"},{"start":8923.877,"end":8951.354,"text":"他既是有心要做 他把它做完之後他還要拿回他的診所 他醫師在那邊做燈打所以醫師跟我講說 逸琳不是我不願意做我把它做完之後我拿回家還要做燈打 要拿回去但是他們其實是有居家護理所可以幫忙他們做執行的所以這個部分第九條那第九條後面最後一款其實醫療院所諮商機構開放之後他的執行資格是寫在執法裡面的就是諮商機構的管理辦法裡面的"},{"start":8953.135,"end":8982.375,"text":"所以這個部分就是可以從執法裡面再來做調整跟做這個資格的修正那當然剛剛前面講到的品質認證真的是很重要的一部分啦那這個被我的社工角度一定還想再提的是關於醫療委任代理人的部分我們臨床上其實醫師不只ACP裡面不只講那個五款臨床條件其實還要講醫療委任代理人因為現在我們的獨居啦我們的家庭關係就是可能子女住國外的特別多了"},{"start":8983.135,"end":8988.04,"text":"所以像這一塊在我們第十條很開心看到這次要做修法的因為我們現在限制很多就是要遺產的受證人當然遺體根本也沒有所謂的受證人所以像這個資格的部分如果可以移除的話會幫助非常多我們現在臨床現場要去做獨居長者或是同志伴侶家庭關係緊張者"},{"start":9006.037,"end":9011.343,"text":"這樣子更大的思考跟這個更彈性跟多元的開放還有就是監護人也放進來這個本來就是我們實務上面就已經在操作的那監護人也不是幫他決定生死而是要依他的預歷醫療決定書來做他的決定所以也不會說有違反這個身心障礙者或者是這個受監護宣告的人的一些權益"},{"start":9028.9,"end":9042.307,"text":"所以我覺得這兩點是在我們這個學會裡面還有做一個社工角色想提出的那希望我們台灣民眾都可以在在安心的社區 在安心的地方終老也是我們最後的期盼 謝謝好 謝謝葉秘書長的這樣的一個說明跟表達相關的一些意見那接下來請我們王玉玲 王委員來做"},{"start":9055.791,"end":9056.372,"text":"中華民國醫護社會工作協會秘書長莊東憲"},{"start":9069.089,"end":9096.701,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位長官還有各位與會的專家先進我們這邊代表中華民國醫護社會工作協會來做一些提供的討論那當然有一些部分前面的專家夥伴委員已經先說過了不過我想在第四條第三項這個議題部分其實一直我們很關注因為在臨床現場我想包含剛剛有一些醫師有分享其實我想從二三十年前我們在討論DNR的適用的時候"},{"start":9097.461,"end":9116.092,"text":"在醫師在實行醫療計畫的相關的決策的時候往往在現場就是遇到這種困境那我學著我們三中三法不斷的推進到現在我想是並沒有錯我們在推動讓整個法的位階上面能夠去明定一些如何遂行原本立法意願上面病人自主意願的表達"},{"start":9116.912,"end":9138.426,"text":"我想這個議題早從以前不是只有在急診可能在家屋病房不管是氣切不管是要不要截肢不管要不要開刀甚至要按一個NG的tube大家都有很多的意見然而實際上我們確實考量到華人的習慣上面家庭的情感關係或者我們會去看到很多家庭成員對過去就醫習慣"},{"start":9139.446,"end":9157.666,"text":"就醫經驗或者就醫評價等等會去影響很多醫療的決策他考量的有時候的面向是很多但我們現實也考量過當初的DNA一直到後來我們可以接受DNA這件事情甚至在三中三法推動過程中我們可以開始民眾去接受關於安寧的一些措施不過實際上"},{"start":9158.607,"end":9187.292,"text":"如果我們真的要落實到當初ACP的立法病人自主權利法的立法精神我們還是要回歸當初我們為什麼要立這個法很主要的條件在於病人意願的能夠被睡醒那在這個前提之下我覺得回到立法的初衷我們對於這個第四條第三項的這個明確化我們認為是有必要雖然我們都能夠了解在實務的現場啟動AD或者在啟動AD的過程當中還是會面臨到很多醫療現場的一些爭議甚至家屬的一些情緒表達"},{"start":9188.352,"end":9208.578,"text":"這也是回饋到當初我們在立法的過程中為什麼在ACP執行的必要性也就是我們在參與ACP的過程中家屬參與的必要性甚至我們為什麼要有色心人員因為醫師代表的角色護理師代表的角色色心人員代表的角色不管是家庭每一個成員誰是重要的決策者"},{"start":9209.978,"end":9234.227,"text":"結構裡面對於誰是決策誰會影響決策跟到時候誰會在醫療的現場產生所謂的爭議行為ACP的過程重點就在預防這些事情的遂行也就是包含我們現實的狀況裡面很多的代理人他可能不再只是一般的家人也不再可能只是一般的監護人包含我們現在在很多的議題上面所謂的同志多元性別的議題他都可能成為"},{"start":9235.087,"end":9259.719,"text":"重要的這個醫療意見的這種到時候最終的表達人那這裡面會有所謂的家庭衝突決策衝突跟一些意見的衝突那都是要透過ACP的歷程才必須是要的所以我想既然以前存在現在意圖改變那我們認為把在病人自我權利法裡面去明確化第四條第三項的這種意旨或者是代表性我覺得是重要的當然我們可以說是保護"},{"start":9260.599,"end":9269.266,"text":"病人的這個意願的表達當然我們也是在確立現場的這些醫師們能夠去執行這邊有無後顧之憂的一些考量或者依法有據"},{"start":9270.652,"end":9291.442,"text":"那這是我們想要表達那只不過針對相關意見書上面有提到關於這個議題裡面醫院人的這個無法明示的議題部分確實上前面我幾位專家有提到過我們就回歸到一些法內的文字WORDING上面的一些統一譬如說醫院的意識清楚表達或者是方式去統一用一句話我想不至於影響"},{"start":9292.422,"end":9321.46,"text":"這件立法的一個確認那當然包含我們的這個私刑第六條要把私刑第五條的規定放到母法的層級我想用意是一樣的那當然針對今天主要的一個討論在於這個第九條的擴大我想像剛剛前面幾位委員談到的話幾位專家談到我覺得擴大是有它的必要性畢竟醫療場所是在當初推行ACP的一個開啟的一個機構但是實際上在實行上面有很多的醫院人他是沒有辦法到醫院的"},{"start":9322.32,"end":9350.435,"text":"這個沒有辦法到醫院不只是可親信可親信的問題還有很多家庭內部的因素你們我們只要去想像一個病人要就醫都有這麼多的顧慮今天我要去執行ACP或者完成ACP的歷程去簽署AD他本來就有很多的考量那我們只把這考量先要去擴大到所謂的社區機構裡面當然成如我們必須要考量的我們有很多的上傳的條件文書的條件跟執行啟動的條件都必須要在相關的細則上面去做考量不過"},{"start":9351.721,"end":9372.815,"text":"在擴大原則上我們也認為醫生醫師的角色不能夠完全排除是可以被應該要被理解原因是我們的擴大不代表排除任何的人不管是醫師護理師或社工師或心理師原因在於本來很多人的接受ACP的對象他的條件不盡相同尤其社區機構的家庭條件疾病狀況他們對於"},{"start":9374.356,"end":9388.512,"text":"所謂五大臨床狀況的預想也不盡相同家屬對這些事情的接收度也會因為家庭的就醫經驗疾病行為會有不同的經驗所以原定的四個專業人員本來就是在這個過程中集體考量的因為"},{"start":9389.553,"end":9413.784,"text":"所有的醫療決策的過程當中家庭成員的動力問題決策的習慣我們在很多的經驗裡面發現今天來做來聆聽的醫院人跟所謂來的這些預備的代理人他們有很多家庭的一些動力的考量或者決策過程可能造成的考量那我只覺得在擴大的前景之下就像剛剛這個伊林秘書長有提到其實PRE-ACP是非常重要的過程"},{"start":9414.464,"end":9423.128,"text":"也就是我們今天有權利去做這件事情也代表他的整個程序必須要完備才能夠兼顧品質還有其他的一些議題以上是我們的報告 謝謝"},{"start":9436.513,"end":9438.174,"text":"謝謝我們主席那也謝謝今天出席的所有的專家學者還有代表那討論這個病毒法首先我要肯定跟謝謝我們前立委楊芸欣委員還有孫教授"},{"start":9452.788,"end":9469.485,"text":"過去在推動立法的過程當中其實貢獻非常多的一個心力那當時立法通過的時候呢大家都很驕傲說這個是我們亞洲第一這個病毒法的通過我們是亞洲第一但是這樣這個亞洲第一通過之後一段時間我們就是應該回過頭"},{"start":9474.39,"end":9484.339,"text":"來檢視當時的立法跟實際的執行是不是有存在什麼樣的落差跟問題那我想最顯然意見的就是我們先從數據會說話就是我們整個簽署ACP的這個量我們從2019到2024那總共累積只有93981人簽署率是0.5%"},{"start":9499.292,"end":9510.381,"text":"那我想推動一個法令通過之後我們本來就希望說病毒法可以充分的落實那這樣的一個簽署率極低才0.5%那就代表他在執行面是出現了問題那我想面對問題解決問題這就是一個務實的態度所以也才會有"},{"start":9518.922,"end":9531.125,"text":"在這修法還有今天有這麼多的專家學者跟團體代表在這邊我想還有蠻多人剛發言的都是在第一線實際去參與執行這個ACP的過程當中所看到的一些問題那我也會建議就是說我們在討論這樣的一個問題的時候大家可以先拋開"},{"start":9540.692,"end":9558.637,"text":"自己的這個立場就是說完全從我們要落實病毒法跟病人的權益這樣的角度我們來思考問題我覺得這樣子大家比較容易找到交集那第一個我覺得既然這個法通過之後現在簽署率低是事實那主管機關就應該要面對就是這樣的一個事實"},{"start":9561.938,"end":9577.843,"text":"我可以接受是說我們不可能一步到位但是我們一定要突破就是說我們可以接受的可以改變的一定要往前做但是絕對不是先有立場說沒有辦法今天主管機關提出來的這些意見"},{"start":9580.458,"end":9586.422,"text":"看一下就是覺得可以不用修了就是說這個現在你看你們的結語說臨床實務執行潛在道德風險相關醫療真理等多面向要達到共識在通盤檢討修正喔基本上這樣的一個報告就反映了一個態度喔就是不想去更動不想去修正那我反對這樣的態度我覺得應該"},{"start":9604.758,"end":9632.714,"text":"主管機關立場要再更開放一些真正聆聽現場遇到什麼樣的問題那第一個簽署率這麼低我們要不要提高當然要啊那如果以現在這個政府機關開放的就是65歲這樣的幅度是大還是小當然是小啊就是只有65歲以上的老人那在這個部分的話怎麼樣去擴大如果一般人他想要來來提供服務的話"},{"start":9634.266,"end":9659.7,"text":"来参与SCP那他就得不到政府任何的协助所以这个我认为是狭隘事实上还可以再更扩大另外一个就是可进性刚刚大家提到的以现行完全范定是医疗场所事实上这个就是没有从病人的角度来看就是我们还有很多的老人家他可能是在长照的领域他在护理之家那对于这些人"},{"start":9660.472,"end":9665.094,"text":"他今天要簽SCP他還需要舟車勞頓到鄰近的醫療院所嗎就是他的可進性其實是不夠的那可進性不夠這個當然他實施的場域這個是必須去擴大的我覺得這個才是從病人的角度就有需求者的角度來看問題然後另外在量能的部分應該要擴大我覺得專業跟專業之間應該是合作而不是說有你沒有我"},{"start":9689.165,"end":9714.546,"text":"就是應該不是這樣子那所以呢剛剛其實我們特別聽到了無論是醫務社工的秘書長特別提到就是說事實上在第一線的這個過程它是一個團隊的過程那專業之間彼此是有需要的就是如果今天醫師護士注入了社工跟諮商師大家的量能我相信是幫助大家把工作做得更好"},{"start":9715.481,"end":9717.562,"text":"是減輕醫師的負擔我想剛剛前面兩位講得非常清楚在現場如果你可以把社工多多引進來他可以幫忙醫師處理掉很多的事情"},{"start":9730.888,"end":9755.678,"text":"那為什麼不是善用這樣的一個專業的力量而要去排斥呢我覺得專業跟專業之間特別是像在醫院醫務社工在醫院的現場就看得很清楚是團隊大家互相合作才會把事情做得好而不是互相說你比較不行我比較行真的不是這樣子所以如何去擴大讓社工的角色讓職商界的角色可以參與我覺得這是應該去思考的那"},{"start":9758.599,"end":9759.702,"text":"怎麼樣從訓練的過程當中讓他們有更好的一個訓練 然後加入這個團隊我覺得大家不要害怕 專業之間真的"},{"start":9768.254,"end":9793.436,"text":"合作力量大合作力量大所以可以引進更多的專業人士大家願意進來我真的覺得事實上他是在降低這個醫師他的這個服務量我們都知道現在醫護其實是嚴重人力不足的那在這樣的情況底下如果我們還要推動這個病毒法這個SCP希望有更多的服務更大的量能"},{"start":9794.056,"end":9810.626,"text":"那不是應該就是讓更多的專業可以加進來嗎我覺得在這件事情上是不是這個有些異界的朋友真的也可以拋開這樣的一個思維就是多去思考只要大家透過團隊合作大家都可以擔負起這樣的一個角色跟責任"},{"start":9811.553,"end":9828.392,"text":"那為什麼不是用一個更包容更開放就是讓大家都進來那這樣子我們才可以往去擴大提高這個SAP的這個簽署率啊可以讓更多人這個將來在這個他他可以接觸他可以受到服務"},{"start":9829.215,"end":9848.9,"text":"然後我們當時立法的精神也才可以完全的落實啊那最後我要講的是政府在預算的部分我覺得我現在看到很多政府只有他想不想做其實也沒有說預算夠不夠的問題是你的優先順序要擺在哪裡所以雖然現在政府已經開放這個65歲以上願意去負擔這個經費"},{"start":9852.697,"end":9873.733,"text":"但就我個人而言我覺得這個幅度其實相對是小的就是在政府可用的預算裡面事實上如果今天我們病毒法這邊夠落實這個對於健保我之前在委員會講過對我們未來健保它反而其實是一個就是你可以節省更多這種無效醫療的支出"},{"start":9874.352,"end":9877.816,"text":"所以不要只是單看說前面的諮商費你可能會花多少錢你可能要把後面透過這樣子的一個獄力組他的那個完成然後降低了這個無效醫療然後我們可以讓我們整個的制度達到多贏的目標所以"},{"start":9892.55,"end":9918.609,"text":"我是蛮期待今天有这么多的专家学者在我们在看问题的时候我还是再次强调大家抛开自己的本位主义然后以病人为中心然后以我们要服务的人民为中心他需要什么然后大家各自去想说那我们还可以多做一点什么我相信如果可以以这个为中心的话我们会更快找出更多的共识那让这一波的修法"},{"start":9919.059,"end":9947.388,"text":"也可以再往前更進一步 以上是我的發言 謝謝好 謝謝王委員的發言下一位請台北慈濟醫院放射腫瘤科主治醫師常佑康醫師發言謝謝主席 那各位長官各位專家學者 那大家早 我是常佑康醫師那我謝謝我的同意片 那我拿一下"},{"start":9950.357,"end":9966.328,"text":"我們都知道這是我整理一下歷年簽署的量就像剛剛王委員講的就是說我們到去年為止就是9萬3千多人大概就是50.4%的全國的簽署率但是今年已經開放了180萬人之上"},{"start":9968.61,"end":9993.401,"text":"那如果每一年兩三萬的簽署量 假設我們不擴大量能的話這180萬要60年才簽的完 至少是不是所以很顯然的我們必須要考量如何去擴大量能這是一個目前的情況那我們醫院簽署的量也有說在上面那我不是說我們是最多的量 這不是重要的因為我一直覺得比量還重要的是品質"},{"start":9995.453,"end":10016.848,"text":"這個諮商的品質 民眾是不是有確實了解了這些選項的意義是不是有知道說他今天簽完回去還要再跟繼續家屬繼續的溝通那去確保他的意願可以讓所有的家屬去支持這個其實是非常重要的那所以呢 我介紹一下我們的意願的諮商團隊"},{"start":10018.149,"end":10042.882,"text":"那我們有副院長有護理部的主任那我們有五位的諮商醫師那我們有兩位的ACP的各管師那還有社工師的團隊一起來參與那大家一看就知道了我們這只有各管師是專任的那醫師五位各自有各自的專科放腫科就是我然後身心科一位加醫科跟神內各起位我們所有醫師都是兼任的"},{"start":10043.562,"end":10050.563,"text":"所以我必須講所有投入ACP諮商願意這樣長期穩定固定的做ACP諮商的醫師都是笨蛋"},{"start":10052.32,"end":10078.418,"text":"都是笨蛋啊因為他花了這麼多的時間這麼多的心力他去做別的事情性價比CP值是更高的那我們是因為熱情所以我們是想要幫助民眾有這個生命教育的機會然後我們才來做這件事情所以我們看一下我們病毒法的目前的就我這個實務工作者的角度者來講我們的困境呢就是我們投入的人力都是堅韌的啊"},{"start":10079.679,"end":10094.299,"text":"那監診人怎麼期待他量能要增加呢是不是好 那我們目前的自費給付有符合成本嗎那我們怎麼去期待醫院或者醫師或者是基層診所做一個不符合成本的事情呢"},{"start":10096.373,"end":10111.801,"text":"這個顯然是違反人性的那在很多比較傳統醫師或醫學會裡面他的父權思想還是很根深蒂固的一直有人告訴我說我們叫病人去救ACP去簽AD好像暗示他要放棄"},{"start":10112.922,"end":10138.548,"text":"並沒有啊所以我們買保險的人都要放棄嗎並沒有吧那甚至醫院會誤以為說如果很多病人都簽了AD他到時候就會拒絕加護積極的治療他的加護病房可能就會空掉事實上我們簽署AD的人不需要擔心如果開刀變成植物人這種風險那我先選擇長續性的治療萬一我開刀變植物人我再用病植物法來測掉就好了"},{"start":10139.528,"end":10162.417,"text":"所以呢其實我們簽AD的人是更有這個底氣更有這個機會去選擇更多的治療偶萬一變成這五種狀況的時候被確認了之後我再停掉就好了所以這個是一個很重要的概念但是我想多數的醫生跟醫院其實並不了解他們一直以為這是一個叫人家放棄治療的法案或者去對抗醫生的法案就非常的可惜"},{"start":10163.297,"end":10184.278,"text":"好 那最後我要提一點就是說其實因為我們在醫院這6年多以來也啟動了協助啟動了一些AD那我們就遇到家屬會反對的情況那這個我發表在網路上面就是我們曾經有病人就是的家屬溝通了8個月之後才終於溝通成功讓病人啟動AD"},{"start":10185.479,"end":10204.618,"text":"所以在我們的修正草案第四條第三項這一邊就是我們希望明定關係人不得妨礙醫療機構執行病人的醫療醫療決定這個部分那我當然是贊成把它加進去但是我要進一步的建議就是說我們要有一個關係人的輔導這些人反對他為什麼要反對輔導他"},{"start":10208.642,"end":10223.803,"text":"那他無限制的反對我們就無限制的讓他拖延啟動嗎顯然也不對那如果真的沒辦法溝通成功就是我們用了最大的努力而溝通不成功那可是我們醫生又覺得他該啟動的話我們要不要有個仲裁的機制出來"},{"start":10225.264,"end":10254.144,"text":"那這樣子才能真正解決這些爭議好那再來就是第九條可能是我們今天大家很關注的重點那就像我們剛剛講的我們目前我們醫院即使開了這麼多的診包括團體諮商我們的預約等待時間至少是一到兩個月那我有聽說要到五個月的那或者是有一家醫院會說我要四個人也算我才要開諮商你兩個人我是不開的因為這樣子才有量能"},{"start":10254.824,"end":10278.923,"text":"好 那所以我要講的就是說像我們醫院的護理師就是我的個管師他有五年半的資歷 他每個月跟八診就跟了這麼久 五年半了那他的諮商經驗 他到處去宣導那他的法規的認知我相信會超過只受法定四小時的這個訓練的每個月只開一診的醫師所以其實關鍵不是在誰在做"},{"start":10279.924,"end":10302.453,"text":"而是說這個人有沒有足夠的認證 足夠的經驗去做這件事情我覺得這個才是關鍵所以也包含我們ACP比較像衛教就是告訴病人他什麼時候可以選擇自足他的概念是什麼 法定流程是什麼他的選項的含義 然後怎麼去跟家屬溝通並不在診斷跟治療五種臨床條件"},{"start":10304.834,"end":10326.309,"text":"這個準段治療五種療程條件如果是在啟動之前是由兩位相關的專科醫師來負責那事實上如果我個人是放射腫瘤科非癌症的病人的末期我就會告訴說你要去問你的主治醫師喔你主治醫師在了解你的病程啊我一個腫瘤科的醫生不可能了解所有專科的末期病人最後會走向什麼樣的挑戰"},{"start":10327.37,"end":10349.398,"text":"那所以其實這個讓各科的醫師去做諮商這是我個人的理想像我們也很想推住院病人的諮商大家想想看我們一天住院有這麼多重症的病人他開了Doctor帶來一個重大的診斷他應該就要做ACP啦是不是那可是我們有辦法做住院人的ACP嗎沒辦法因為全部都我一個人做我就發瘋了"},{"start":10350.638,"end":10368.249,"text":"我不可能的我們應該是要推動的是每一科都要有一個醫生 兩個醫生可以去做諮商他就做他自己科的病人就好啦是不是所以如果我們期待住院病人也可以諮商的話就不可能靠門診的醫師來做了一定要各科的醫生都有辦法做"},{"start":10370.35,"end":10394.897,"text":"所以我們有很多很多的還有進步的空間我想所以大家也很關切就是說到底民眾來諮商的時候會問到什麼問題會不會是我們不熟悉的東西其實我們如果好好的教育好好的訓練這些諮商的醫師包括人員我相信他是可以回答的這是沒有問題的就像我這邊看到就是說其實常見的問題就是這些"},{"start":10396.422,"end":10418.535,"text":"因為民眾也看過昏迷民眾也看過植物人甚至民眾的生命經驗也知道末期病人大概是什麼樣子所以我很高興的聽到陳清輝委員還有今天我們會安排一個實地的訪查的部分因為真實的情況到底是怎麼樣我們不要用想像的我很歡迎長官們跟委員們"},{"start":10419.735,"end":10438.052,"text":"下午仔細的去參訪那就可以了解說其實這並不是只有醫生能做的事情那就像我們說對不起我倒回來就是說假設長照機構好了我們知道日本的高齡化比我們更早對不對日本人沒有病毒法日本人是人生會議"},{"start":10439.714,"end":10456.748,"text":"讓長照人員在長照機構跟病人跟家屬談一次或兩次然後再簽他的意願出來雖然沒有一個法定的流程或格式可是日本人是這樣做的那其實各國也沒有人沒有一個國家規定一定要醫師才能夠做這件事情"},{"start":10457.708,"end":10471.877,"text":"所以我想開放到這些機構 也能解決很多可靜性的問題沒辦法來醫院 他就臥床那我能叫我的諮商醫師每天跑出去幫他們諮商嗎?顯然也是不可能的事情"},{"start":10472.717,"end":10495.456,"text":"那所以這些護理機構 廠商機構 心理諮商所 包括社會公司的這個部分我想這個開放 我們並沒有說醫生不能做 而是說大家一起來做那甚至我必須要講 我今天幫一個智能障礙的人 幫一個失智的人諮商我花的時間跟精力 顯然會超過一般的健康人"},{"start":10496.357,"end":10524.175,"text":"我可能要一個半小時甚至兩個小時才可以幫這些智能障礙的人輕度失智症的人好好的談出他想要怎麼做那結果我們是大國飯所有人做都是一樣的價錢那不管你幾個人來我都怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個顯然也是我們必須要想辦法去分級就是說一個健康亞健康和那個真正的是重大傷病的或者失智症的或者特定疾病的他的諮商"},{"start":10525.316,"end":10534.79,"text":"應該也要分期吧而不是大過犯的這種做法我是這麼的建議好 那至於這個醫療委員制度那我剛剛有聽到"},{"start":10536.175,"end":10557.726,"text":"就是那個長官這邊提到說道德風險就是好像一定要有這個限制才沒有道德風險實務上我們已經遇到了民眾已經約定了特定的友人去處理他的財產包括他的身後事骨灰都要交給他處理了他的財產都要交給他了可是因為他得到了遺產他就不可以當醫療委任代理人各位覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":10559.295,"end":10575.624,"text":"我的財產都要給他了骨灰都要給他處理了可是因為他得到財產他就不能當我的醫療委員代理人他明明最了解我這是我這個信任的人所以我們做這樣子的過度的規範事實上是反而是阻礙了民眾的選項"},{"start":10578.085,"end":10595.705,"text":"那再來這個監護代理的這個部分在第十條這一邊那我們看一下就知道目前的監護宣告說監護人可以處理護養療治的問題但是他沒辦法有一個授權說他去處理維持生命治療跟人工營養的重大決策"},{"start":10597.209,"end":10622.518,"text":"這顯然也不合理他可以決定小事情他不可以決定生死的事情他明明就是監護人這個監護人是沒有行為能力的完全靠監護人代替他去做決策所以這部分我們當然也是希望可以把這個部分開放出來包括監護人 議定監護或法定監護人他其實等同是他的醫療委任代理人他可以去幫忙他的被監護人去做這個決策"},{"start":10625.097,"end":10641.426,"text":"好 那再來就是十二條第三項第四項的部分包含就是說在第十項增訂說醫療過程中明示著書面的意思表示當醫生執行的依據之一那我就分享一個我們這個禮拜才發生的一個個案"},{"start":10641.986,"end":10655.658,"text":"4月9號的時候 健動人A先生他因為肺炎病發的呼吸衰竭他跟妻子用注音表格溝通他本來是用眼控電腦但是健動人最後只剩眼鏡可以動他用眼控電腦在跟太太溝通他就告訴太太說他想要啟動了"},{"start":10657.259,"end":10686.241,"text":"可是因為他呼吸衰竭很喘那就必須使用馬菲來改善他的症狀所以大家看一下這個就是病人太太傳給我們的訊息然後大家看這個照片就知道這個太太很努力地用注音表在知道先生的意願是什麼那假設今天這個先生要改變他的預理醫療決定假設啦結果他要去重簽AD大家覺得有辦法嗎"},{"start":10687.422,"end":10704.887,"text":"這樣一個脆弱的病人那已經受很多限制的病人那我們不是說讓他可以用他的當下的表示來表達他的意願只要他的意願不符合他的AD我就要去改AD我才能夠確保他是被AD得到法定的保障"},{"start":10705.647,"end":10729.468,"text":"這部分其實我覺得也是非常的不合理所以我們應該是要向我們就孫老師這邊建議的修法的方向來做所以我最後想要講一件事情就是說我們雖然我一開始也講量可是我覺得我們這個政府跟我們所有的社會應該從量的執著裡面要稍微要清醒過來我們要更注意的是品質才對啊"},{"start":10731.129,"end":10756.277,"text":"這個諮商到底沒有讓民眾得到他確保他充足的資訊他聽了一個小時回去忘了超過一半我們有沒有一本手冊可以給他帶回去讓他去複習讓他跟其他的家屬溝通所以這個諮商的品質包括我們剛才也有很多人提到團體諮商事實上很擔心他的品質是沒有那麼的完好的因為他就幾十個人一起簽等等這些問題"},{"start":10759.478,"end":10784.782,"text":"甚至很多團體諮商的會說你就來反正我們現場的人都可以當你見證所以你也不一定要帶家屬來那我們讓家屬溝通的這個部分就會不見所以我很希望就是說我們可以往目前的修法方向來努力開放更多的非醫師的職類也可以來做這個各個場域的諮商包括我們剛剛提到就是說"},{"start":10785.662,"end":10811.272,"text":"諮商也應該要分級 依照他的難度 依照病人的條件然後病人的場域 那可以讓民眾各取所需他覺得他需要找醫生的 他就去約醫生他覺得他在長照機構就可以解決他的問題的就可以講清楚了 那他在長照機構做就好啦那這樣子我們真正的才能夠幫助我們的民眾得到這個HP這邊一個很好的保障 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10816.581,"end":10824.536,"text":"那接下來請台灣生命自主權力促進協會常務理事陳清旭陳常務理事來做發言"},{"start":10831.325,"end":10850.93,"text":"主席各位長官然後各位專家先進大家好很榮幸今天可以來這邊發言我們主要就是在做社區推廣上尊嚴善忠的部分所以我們常常遇到社區民眾會跟我們問說這樣子我們努力了這麼多那麼多繁複的程序我們到底可不可以真的尊嚴善忠到底我的家屬會不會尊重我"},{"start":10851.85,"end":10879.125,"text":"所以這個回應到就是第四條這部分就是家屬的意願然後他們到底可不可以被溝通然後我們在社區民眾在推廣的時候就包括講座 包括一般的時候的討論很多時候都是有點像是中年 中生代的人會來那他們想要帶他的長輩會有一個落差那長輩好像他的理解能力或者是他的可以被接受程度在我們的價值觀上面會有一些差異"},{"start":10880.126,"end":10900.754,"text":"那我覺得這個差異在我們可以理解跟推廣上面會有一個蠻大的影響所以當我們好不容易在ACP可以把家屬可以帶到現場然後可以大家做一個討論的時候後面長輩好不容易簽了那家屬如果也可以的話那當然是最好的那最有可能的是"},{"start":10902.17,"end":10917.998,"text":"少數少數的長輩來這邊理解到了簽完之後結果其他人是沒有辦法理解的然後另外一個我們最常遇到的就是程序上然後費用上那程序就是我們遇到他們就是說我們好不容易討論好"},{"start":10919.502,"end":10948.942,"text":"那我們後續要找到醫生找到團隊找到怎麼做記然後這些繁複的程序上很多很多人他們都很難理解然後很難知道到底要怎麼做怎麼進行所以我們想說這個程序上或者是費用上也是每個先進就是很努力在簡化或是很努力在落實的然後另外就是因為我的身份也是諮商心理師所以我在民眾社區諮商的情況底下其實很多很多人都已經在詢問這個部分"},{"start":10949.842,"end":10977.816,"text":"可是他們的詢問比較是我想要這麼做可是我不知道裡面是什麼那就回應到是不是要擴展推廣所以我們在社區的心理輔導的時候其實就已經可以再多做一些推廣跟擴展有點像ACP的方式然後我更在意的是後續後續的銜接就是社區怎麼也銜接到後續的單位包括需要醫生包括需要整個團隊然後整個理解上可以更了解"},{"start":10979.107,"end":10997.741,"text":"好然後最後就是我們很在意的就是生命自主的部分當個案已經有辦法自己說出來自己需要的時候我們是不是可以尊重他的尊嚴善終然後這也是我們每一個人最在意的可以讓自己的生命自主權還有生命的善終可以得到落實好謝謝好謝謝陳常務理事的花言接下來請張其凱委員來做花言"},{"start":11028.038,"end":11042.529,"text":"今天談這個尊嚴善重來講心情是沉重的我是傅達仁傅先生的好朋友也是他中興大學的學弟我們都很捨不得他"},{"start":11057.406,"end":11084.026,"text":"那事實上今天談尊嚴善忠我想起了以前我們這些協力妹好朋友跟市長跟副大臣協長最後那些聚會他還是樣子開朗的可是他真的太痛了你談到他的時候你是不捨的他說一天有時候一天打那個總量那個muff要打160毫升"},{"start":11085.424,"end":11098.629,"text":"才能減少那個痛他有時候連站著有時候都睡著了常常跌倒所以那時候你捨不得他說要去瑞士安樂死的時候你很捨不得可是你看他那麼多病痛 那種折磨"},{"start":11109.483,"end":11137.738,"text":"心裡又是非常非常的這個難過我不急跟他講事實上他後來有一些比較好的事情他最後那個晚年雖然他選擇安樂死可是他也沒有放棄喔他之前他也把一些時間留下來看著他的小孩結婚了他也演步到廣州去做了一些治療在那個過程裡面他求生的意志是非常非常堅定的可是真的太痛了真的太痛了"},{"start":11139.338,"end":11157.495,"text":"所以後來,他很喜歡寫詩啦,他說最後那個遺言留下一個詩篇,你是怎麼說的,他說克死蘇黎世他說我來自於台灣,我是為了公平,為了法治,為了自由跟人權,我克死蘇黎世,也無憾"},{"start":11159.764,"end":11169.393,"text":"今天我們提起負擔人不捨得同時我們很多朋友都想起來所以今天是很多朋友包括老師說你今天一定要來講話"},{"start":11172.16,"end":11195.035,"text":"雖然很沉重可是台灣在台灣病人這個自主權利的時候當然現在要馬上去推安樂死有尊嚴的善終在台灣還非常非常困難甚至是某些人的這個忌諱可是我們一定要往前跨一步要去面對"},{"start":11200.782,"end":11228.164,"text":"不只是傅達仁先生瓊瑤那個遺書我相信很多人還有他選擇離開很多人一定也很感動我想講的是為什麼把傅先生、傅達仁跟瓊瑤放在一起講瓊瑤遺書說什麼他不想慢慢枯萎凋零我想為這最後的大事自己來做主事實上就是我們今天討論的"},{"start":11229.844,"end":11253.504,"text":"病人他應該有自主權決定他最後的善終的一個方式他說我是火花我已經燃燒過了我不願意當一個插管維生臥病的老人可是我要提醒喔瓊瑤在遺書裡面他特別強調一點他很溫柔的跟大家喊話他說年輕的你們千萬不要輕易去放棄生命"},{"start":11255.168,"end":11276.473,"text":"他跟護老人一樣他們都求生意志都是非常堅強的可是真的太痛了瓊瑤在離開之前他還提醒大家說年輕的你們千萬不要輕易放棄生命一時的挫折跟打擊可能是美好生命中的磨練希望你們經得起磨練跟我一樣可以活到86歲87歲等到體力真的不支的時候你再選擇如何面對死亡"},{"start":11285.683,"end":11295.107,"text":"我的老師跟很多朋友說有沒有可能透過今天的公聽會我剛才傾聽很多專家寫者的聲音你們在第一線意見都非常寶貴那今天我們在討論病毒法這個修正的時候有沒有可能去審視一下台灣現在有多少的民眾長輩或者病患"},{"start":11312.045,"end":11316.807,"text":"他們那時候也承受了胡達仁先生 瓊瑤女士的苦痛他們求生意是很強 可是他們真的撐不下去了能不能給他一個有尊嚴 他有自主性的一個選擇的環境我去做了功課 我給大家看了一下"},{"start":11335,"end":11352.685,"text":"我們的這個簽訂簽署這個預訂醫療決定的人數最近幾年是一直在增加的108年那時候一年大概只有1萬人簽署那到了112跟113的時候他每年大概都增加都在增加2萬5你看那個最下那個紅線那個期限我們現在已經有9萬108年到113年已經有9萬3千人簽署了"},{"start":11359.505,"end":11382.102,"text":"所以顯示這個尊嚴善終法的這個需求應該是更迫切更需要的可是老講沒有錯我們目前的安寧醫療確實有很多的這個不足有很多很多的這個問題好我今天帶了一份那個民調過來我想跟他討論一下民調我們看一下這個"},{"start":11384.181,"end":11413.206,"text":"前年啊2023年啊 泰豹在12月底特別做了一份他問了我們台灣的這個民眾啊你知不知責安樂死 渴望善終嗎這是台灣那時候的民意高達七成五的民眾挺安樂死原因是什麼但我要講這個點我們求生意志都很堅強就像瓊娃剛剛講的 特別是年輕的 沒有病痛的"},{"start":11414.434,"end":11442.797,"text":"可是你看安樂死的支持理由是什麼希望有尊嚴的死亡50%要減輕痛苦的20.3%避免去浪費醫療資源的這邊家庭因素很多人選擇離開事實上是因為他捨不得家人可是他心裡又覺得給家裡那麼大的一個負擔所以事實上是有12"},{"start":11444.85,"end":11459.798,"text":"點三的人他後來決定他如果說他必須做一個決定像是因為家庭的因素還有人是避免這個醫療的這個這個浪費所以你從民調這邊還有年齡層的整個整個分析當然年紀年紀比較長你會發現年紀越長的這比例是比例是高的好那你去看看全世界事實上你包括"},{"start":11471.175,"end":11476.729,"text":"今天寫者專家很多,我不要多講事實上我去看了這個研究有安樂死的國家當然"},{"start":11478.64,"end":11499.406,"text":"已經是有好幾個了像荷蘭是在2002年它就立法安樂死障它是合法化的比利時它一樣在2002年它通過了這個合法制度保障如果說你是真的是身心極度的這個痛苦病患你有這樣的一個選擇權那加拿大是從這個2016年開始實施的這個醫助死亡"},{"start":11504.008,"end":11528.705,"text":"當然他納入了一個非常嚴格的一個條件勝場所以雖然還有很多國家都有這樣的一個立法好今天心情很沉痛我大概沒辦法多講我只是很期待因為我知道這個題目是每個人都會碰到的我們人生的課題裡面最後一定是面對死亡的那在那個我回憶起以前傅達仁學長那個相處那個過程最後那幾年一個那麼開朗的人"},{"start":11530.131,"end":11552.641,"text":"那在以前回想那個互搭 你想到是他笑聲就是一個很幽默 連他病痛的時候他都還會講笑話給你聽可是他真的撐不住了所以他遺言裡面他認為應該要有一個讓每個人不要承受那麼大的一個苦痛他有一個自主性 有一個尊嚴善忠的一個方式"},{"start":11554.38,"end":11579.191,"text":"所以蠻期待的今天剛剛很謝謝建國派這麼好的一個供電會今天也請盯很多專家協助的意見今天敬禮還有很多會不會有很多人來看能不能多注意一下現在台灣的每個角落裡面有多少的民眾他已經承受不了他的痛苦了"},{"start":11580.666,"end":11609.669,"text":"那怎麼樣讓他減少病痛讓他是非常有尊嚴的很期待我知道這個很困難面對死亡真的很困難要談這個真的很多地方還是機會可是我們真的要去面對這個問題希望有機會可以往前跨一步謝謝好 謝謝我們張吉凱委員的花言那接下來請中國民國護理師護士工會全國聯合會理事李英芬來做花言"},{"start":11615.643,"end":11632.323,"text":"好主席各位专家大家好呃我是代表护理师护士全国联合会那我们护政法治委员会来这边做报告那我是英芬那我本身也是台湾人照顾协会理事长那我同时也是马洁医院长期照护管理中心的主任"},{"start":11633.064,"end":11651.252,"text":"那今天呢這個議題其實在之前我們立法院也有舉辦過座談會那當時我也有表達代表全聯會表達過一些護理師們的想法那一樣今天也不免俗在這邊再把有些的事情再做一些說明其實剛才我在下面聽到很多"},{"start":11652.052,"end":11673.808,"text":"前辈很多专家的一些的分析还有他们的经验谈其实我要跟大家报告临床状况真的非常多元那大家提及的这些特殊案例我相信都是让我们愿意去面对这些生死议题一个勇往直前努力帮病人作为一个称职代言人的一个动力"},{"start":11674.468,"end":11696.505,"text":"但是我们也不可否认临床中也有很多现象其实很多的病人是被放弃的这个让我们在这个被放弃会造成真正职业人员上面很多伦理的冲突所以我们护理师全联会在讨论这个议题的时候其实我们有很多的考量"},{"start":11697.105,"end":11715.269,"text":"那我自己在这边首先也跟大家说明就是因为我自己在安宁领域已经有二十几年的经验那我也常常在社区里面推动我们的所谓善中恶法包括安宁缓和医疗条例还有病主法的相关的一些经验对民众来讲"},{"start":11715.749,"end":11738.171,"text":"其实民众是非常肯定国家愿意把有这样子让他们自己选择善终权益的法案他们都是很肯定那他们也很认真的在听那当然就很在意后面怎么做就每次讲完之后到后来特别谈到病毒法的一些的諮商流程的时候他们首先听到需要付费这件事情就会非常的"},{"start":11740.433,"end":11760.119,"text":"好那當然這個就是一個點再來其實我們在互動的過程裡面他們最常發問的那幾款的臨床條件當中對於疾病末期他們是很能理解的因為跟安寧環醫療條例裡面是一個重疊雖然他中間略有一些的差異但終究他們能夠接受生命末期"},{"start":11761.88,"end":11787.815,"text":"以所谓的DNR所谓安宁方式来离开但是对于其他几款临床条件到底所指的真切的状况是怎么样那医师要怎么判断呢那未来他们会如何启动其实民众更需要的是专业的说明那这是我们自己在这个过程里面遇到的那当然我们也分享了也介绍了最近健保署对于这些所谓的"},{"start":11788.695,"end":11794.659,"text":"諮商的一些支付條件那他們的反應其實是很好的他們很高興他們覺得說那大家就非常認真的往下聽那我們也看到有些醫院的網站已經把這個訊息都PO上去了歡迎屬於這類的"},{"start":11804.745,"end":11825.352,"text":"条件的个案来预约资商门诊那这个呢是我们的一些经验谈那相对我也跟大家报告那这次我要回应的还是护理机构跟长照机构里面那我们的人力跟这在上次我也有说明过那我们的人力到底是怎么样的一个人力因为现在的人力都是根据"},{"start":11825.852,"end":11847.473,"text":"我们国家的法相关法规定出来的护理机构的一个分类设置标准居家护理所那至少一名因为他要自己涉案但是他的一个相关的申报条件还有我们的业务量每个月访试人次要以100人次大家知道每天扣掉工作日100人次其实每天的业务是非常繁忙的"},{"start":11847.893,"end":11867.066,"text":"那這些居家個案他要從換管藥物還有各種傷口評估等等身體評估等等他所做非常非常的多元好那護理之家更不用說15床一位護理師餵滿15床一15床計那這個這樣子的人力配置他還要輪班有機構是輪兩班有機構是輪三班好那這是"},{"start":11872.029,"end":11890.699,"text":"那社区长照机构主要分成两类一个是社区长照机构那一个是住宿型机构那社区长照机构一般大概是以日间照护为主那这是这里所罗列的全部都是我们长福长福法里面那我们做社区长照机构里面服务的对象大家可以看到"},{"start":11891.079,"end":11908.429,"text":"他必须经过评估他的需要等级也就是我们俗称的CMS等级要二级以上而且要符合这些条件他才能够进入那这些的服务对象相当他有很多需要被照顾的点等一下我会跟大家说明好"},{"start":11909.389,"end":11930.891,"text":"那大家社区这是那他的工作人员的条件是什么30位设置一名护理师或社工师30名哦那当然住宿型机构更多元那这边字虽然有点小但这全部都是从我们自己的呃相关的法规截取下来的大家可以看到他分成"},{"start":11931.371,"end":11945.307,"text":"一般的養護型的失智型的安養型的身心障礙的長期照護型的大家幾乎都是15床需要照顧到15位個案或20位個案才配一位護理師"},{"start":11946.288,"end":11963.977,"text":"那這些都是而且這些護理師還要輪班那大家就可以知道他們的負荷那他們要做些什麼那這些個案有很多基本上都已經是失能或失智他沒有辦法心智功能上司可能是部分或全部全部都要依賴他人照顧"},{"start":11964.697,"end":11980.026,"text":"那这边全部都是长福法里面规范这些机构要服务的项目大家可以看到从日常生活照顾生活起居辅助还有医事服务甚至于是社会参与如何减缓失能失智的状态"},{"start":11980.566,"end":11995.301,"text":"那這麼多還要應對家屬所以呢在這幾個條件之下那我們也看了今天的討論大綱那我想呼應幾個點一個就是呢民眾對於ACP費用的需求可以看到是非常大的那我們也建議請持續執行那"},{"start":11999.024,"end":12027.459,"text":"而且我們要平直這樣子的一個成效那如果成效很好或者擴大辦理我們也都樂見可以讓民眾在經濟負擔上面可以少掉一些些的一個負荷那另外有關於這個所謂的擴大辦理的對象或者是一個可行性特別是在護理機構或長照機構以前面我跟大家報告的這些只是僅僅依照法規的這些基本的一些人力配備還有服務量能"},{"start":12027.919,"end":12050.67,"text":"那再加上我目前服務對象多數是沒有自主意識的部分那他就沒有辦法執行那個病毒法的一些內容我們建議先暫不執行但是呢我們當然也有思考到這絕對是未來的一個趨勢那以目前現況來說在這些機構裡面如果已經有意識清楚可以自己決定的一些長者"},{"start":12051.67,"end":12071.652,"text":"那当他有需要的时候那也可以透过护理师或社工师找到合作医院那我们是用支援报备的方式来协助进行像以我们自己马街医院我们有在帮一些机构的意识清楚的个案来做这部分的諮商甚至于协助他们去理解AD的各个一个临床条件"},{"start":12072.413,"end":12092.459,"text":"當然我們也樂見就是因為未來他如果是一個那我蠻富裕前面有幾位專家提到的他絕對是一個需要循序漸進的一個過程那未來擴大辦理我相信那個是勢在必行但是在這個之前我們還是要先說明以現況來說"},{"start":12094.119,"end":12115.754,"text":"那在長符法的這樣子的條件之下基本上長照的跟護理機構的護理師們已經負擔非常重了那我也有詢問過一些照專還有一些居都他們真的是光是管理這些他們就已經非常費心了那他們很樂意也接受這個教育那我們也希望就是說"},{"start":12117.435,"end":12143.38,"text":"如何来往前走或者要思考是不是有一些事办计划让有意愿的机构然后让他们有意愿的人大家可以先来培训这些有意愿的人让他成为具有智商能力的一个护理师然后呢再跟他的合约医院的团队成为其中的一员一起来进行当这样子有的这些种子之后再慢慢的扩大"},{"start":12143.86,"end":12145.48,"text":"以上是护理权联会的代表谢谢大家"},{"start":12173.243,"end":12183.367,"text":"好謝謝律師的發言那現在我們第一輪發言已經完畢那請問與會的專家學者有要在第二輪的發言有嗎就說有沒有第二輪的發言要請他們先回應然後再OK好那這樣我就請次長這邊"},{"start":12203.197,"end":12220.177,"text":"是作為一個綜合的回應他們如果有些意見再提出來好不好但是我們時間還是有限會可能這個我就提醒大家了因為我們下午有這個考察是一點半要出發一點要出發一點半要到好請社長謝謝"},{"start":12227.025,"end":12245.135,"text":"謝謝主席跟我們今天所有的專家跟所謂各位學者那非常感謝大家針對我們在病毒法的這個修法的一些意見那當然我想其實當我面臨到高齡化社會大家其實對於生命的價值的看重以及對於臨終或者是自己的人生"},{"start":12245.755,"end":12268.521,"text":"的生命價值的看法當然是有越來越多的討論那我們也非常樂見這樣子的討論因為這樣子的討論事實上是有助於我們讓更多的民眾可以了解對於自己的人對自己的健康以及對於自己未來假設在我們的生命到了不可逆就是說在健康狀況不可逆的情況之下他可以有哪些選擇不過"},{"start":12269.921,"end":12290.204,"text":"我先不做主向的回應不過我也非常認同剛剛其實很多專家還有臨床的夥伴所講的第一個事情是說在這個相關的法律裡面我們必須要去考量到在最終在執行的過程尤其是最後在對於病患做醫療決策跟做醫療介入的過程中事實上還是第一線的醫療人員"},{"start":12291.445,"end":12311.261,"text":"所以操作定義以及後續在法規上面如何能夠讓第一線執行相關醫療程序的醫療人員能夠安心以及他有一個好的可以參採的方向這個部分我們會絕對要做一個好的考量第二個部分就是說我相信大家也都會理解其實剛很多會第一線的夥伴也發現的也講到了"},{"start":12311.701,"end":12325.94,"text":"就是說在整個生命在生命歷程裡面不同的時間點不同的這個情緒狀況以及他所面臨到的壓力他對於很多的決策的考量是不一樣的那我們向來都清楚說在因為我自己以前是遺傳諮詢的醫師"},{"start":12328.803,"end":12351.035,"text":"那我们在做所谓的GENETIC COUNSELING也很重要几个事情第一个是明确的知情同意也就是他必须清楚的知道我有哪些选择这些选择分别会带给我什么样的结果以及如果我不做这些选择或我做哪些选择后续会有什么样子的状况那另外还有就是我们在这个过程里面事实上在智商伦理或咨询伦理有个很重要是不指导以及不批判"},{"start":12351.875,"end":12377.08,"text":"那所以这个过程中在第一线执行我们协助我们的个案来进行病人自主权利跟预立相关的医疗决策的过程中我想专家的意见以及专家他是否能够有足够的不论是知道预后知道治疗的结果或者是其他的这个选项就非常非常重要我想这也是我们跟大家都一致的认为就是我们其实应该可以更加的在"},{"start":12378.041,"end":12392.438,"text":"在必須要有在專業度足夠的前提之下當然我們廣納更多的這個成員跟參與者以及當然剛剛謝謝護理師公會這邊提到的在執行者的量能可以提供的情況之下而讓"},{"start":12393.038,"end":12407.426,"text":"我們的個案或者是家屬他們能夠在得到充分而且完整的專業資訊的過程中他也可以有一些比較可敬性的一些服務不過這個細節的部分我們之後再更多我們再參考大家的討論"},{"start":12408.587,"end":12434.755,"text":"那另外還有就是說我想其實我們在面對的這一切為什麼大家這麼關注也包含了除了對生命權的關注之外還有就是對於悲傷的接受也就是說這個悲傷的接受以及對於悲傷的處理不只是個案自己還包含他的家屬那其實我相信臨床的夥伴都知道在臨床的處理程序裡面很多這個後續對於生命的接受以及整個悲傷的處理臨終的處理不見得"},{"start":12436.275,"end":12455.383,"text":"只有依照專業的這個冷冰冰的專業知識他事實上還有就牽涉到不同個案他的家庭動力裡面的關係以及其他的家屬能不能在過程中支持或協助或了解這個個案的狀況所以也非常感謝各位在今天公聽會謝謝我們的召委今天的這個公聽會"},{"start":12456.744,"end":12478.726,"text":"那各位提供的我想我們其實我想可以在這邊先回復的就是說這樣我們會持續的讓第一線正在協助以及在進行病人自主權利相關的專業的夥伴能夠得到更多的支持第二的話就是剛剛各位提到的有些在品質上面應該確保的部分我們或許會在品質上面再做一些討論再做一些更多的精進就是說讓"},{"start":12480.607,"end":12498.875,"text":"這個標準以及讓這個專業能夠及時而且能夠更普遍的來到病人或者家屬之前不過這中間包含倫理以及專業上面應有的限制或者是必須要在程序上面因為牽涉到法律以及後續的一些醫療責任等等這個部分我們會一定的來跟大家做考量謝謝好謝謝次長的回應"},{"start":12507.048,"end":12511.292,"text":"那各位還有沒有其他要補充花言的孫教授謝謝"},{"start":12521.277,"end":12537.508,"text":"好各位大家好我就第二次發言那這次發言應該是我聽了大家的意見包含我們主管機關的意見我想做一個整體的一個想法的一個分享"},{"start":12538.428,"end":12555.809,"text":"那首先今天的這個公聽會我覺得大部分都集中在第九條但是我是希望邀請所有的夥伴們關注病毒法的夥伴們能夠注意到我們這次的修法事實上涉及到的是蠻系統性的全方位的"},{"start":12557.23,"end":12571.358,"text":"各個方面不是只有第九條那其實在很多其他的條文都涉及到很多重要的議題可是不見得有被受到足夠的重視在上次的立法院的委員會的審查會"},{"start":12572.859,"end":12597.27,"text":"只通過了第三條第五條跟第十五條三個其實比較trivial一點比較屬於文字定義技術性的一些東西但是除此之外其他很多條文都相當的重要那我看到的這個委員會保留這些條文的一些保留的意見特別是主管機關對於道德風險的這個擔憂"},{"start":12601.492,"end":12625.621,"text":"今天剛剛王一鳴委員也是有特別提到那我自己個人這邊是很誠摯的盼望主管機關能夠在這些議題上面能夠更去釐清客觀上的一些問題而避免就是被這個道德風險太過侷限我們積極去"},{"start":12630.964,"end":12657.119,"text":"改善我們的制度的這樣的一個進取的態度那也當然是盼望委員們能夠立法委員更是能夠針對國家的制度做出積極的這樣的一個努力那我這邊可能就先舉幾個今天比較沒有被注意到的一個環節但是在這個衛福部的報告裡面有提到譬如說第二點"},{"start":12658.34,"end":12672.23,"text":"衛生部報告第二點提到第六條那第六條他只有舉第一項病人為民事反對由關係人行使同意權時得以關係人同意為之他覺得這個賦予關係人這樣的一個權利然後關係人範圍寬廣可能會增加潛在的道德風險"},{"start":12680.456,"end":12707.234,"text":"那這個擔憂我個人認為就是可能是有待斟酌的首先關係人事實上就是從醫療法63條64條以來的那些關係人包含了這個法定代理人配偶親屬以及衛福部自己本身後來透過函式因為多元家庭因為這個多元性別對於所謂的與病人有特別密切關係之人也納入了所謂的關係人範圍這個本來就是在"},{"start":12710.796,"end":12737.766,"text":"衛福部既有的包含在法律以及行政命令上面就已經有的並沒有什麼關係人範圍特別的變得寬廣的這樣的一個問題而且事實上按照原本的醫療法本來就是這一個重大的醫療干預譬如說手術或者是輕率性檢查跟治療本來就是要告知本人或關係人那本人"},{"start":12738.946,"end":12766.104,"text":"或關係人就代表著關係人也是一個合法的一個這個接受告知並且簽署手術相關同意書的一個合法的一個從醫療法開始就是一個在醫療法傳統裡面在醫療法規傳統裡面合法的一個能夠接受告知跟簽署同意的一個對象所以不能夠從這邊就是說有什麼額外的一個道德的風險"},{"start":12767.245,"end":12789.932,"text":"更何況事實上要了解本法第六條的修正案不能夠只看第一項要看整體大家手上都有修正案的對照表從這個對照表就可以知道我們第六條事實上是針對病人處在不同的意識能力的樣態當他有完整的意識能力的時候只要他沒有明明白白的反對"},{"start":12793.254,"end":12810.83,"text":"由這個關係人去同意的話關係人也可以簽同意書可以簽手術同意書如果他的意識能力有一些瑕疵的話那麼醫療決策就應該由他跟關係人共同決策如果他完全沒有意識能力這是第三項的修正就當然只能夠經過關係人這個從醫療法63條64條就是這樣子嘛"},{"start":12814.873,"end":12841.021,"text":"就是說手術應經當事人或者是其他的關係人的同意那當事人如果昏迷了不經過關係人要經過誰呢所以我們不能說關係人有可能會不同意手術會有這樣的道德風險我們就不同意這樣的一個修法更關鍵的問題在於我們第六條的修法事實上是完全是copy至施行細則第五條那施行細則第五條也是衛福部早就通過的條文"},{"start":12842.842,"end":12869.924,"text":"那這個條文司令系的第五條的條文就是現在我們要把它放到這個母法第六條裡面去的完全是一模一樣的文字那之所以要把它放到母法是因為這裡涉及到人民的權利義務的規範放到執法裡面就是不太符合法律保留原則也就是憲法要求的人民的權利義務應該要由法律來規範"},{"start":12871.065,"end":12900.26,"text":"所以我們就覺得應該在適應細則已經實施六年的這樣的一個做法應該把它提升到法律的位階所以把它放到第六條所以這邊我看到衛福部的反對意見我就會覺得不是很能夠明白因為這個已經是在適應細則第五條已經實施了六年多的這樣的一個跟病毒法母法一起的一個法規好那另外接下來在第二點的後半部"},{"start":12902.521,"end":12919.041,"text":"這裡提到說醫療文件代理人或監護人這一段他說實務執行面上如果病人的意願未明確揭示將增加決策判斷之不確定性"},{"start":12920.722,"end":12942.052,"text":"這個其實是我是覺得就是說如果大家請各位如果去仔細看包含現行條文現行條文事實上這個是在第十條第三項這邊是在講說本來是在講說醫藥委任代理人在意願人亦是昏迷或者是無法清楚表達意願的時候他有三個權限"},{"start":12943.453,"end":12970.788,"text":"第一個權限呢就是聽取第五條的告知跟第二款是簽據第六條的同意書這個本來就是從醫療法63條64條開始就有的這一個病人如果不能試試的時候當然就是應該由關係人去幫忙聽取告知跟這個簽署同意書嘛手術的同意書或者是其他簽署性檢查治療的同意書嘛"},{"start":12971.508,"end":12991.898,"text":"那至於第三款 第三款是依病人的預立醫療決定內容代理病人表達醫療意願所以這裡合理來的所謂堂堂病人的意願未明確揭示以第三款為例 病人的意願已經明確揭示在他的預立醫療決定書當中了所以怎麼會有這個"},{"start":12995.36,"end":13016.819,"text":"決策判斷不確定恐無法保障病人善終權益的問題等等所以最後當然再加上刪除醫療文件代理人的限制又提到道德風險 可是事實上這個在當初立法的時候 我跟某一個立法委員的辦公室就說過"},{"start":13018.464,"end":13045.714,"text":"你們要把遺體受證人列為這個不允許擔任這個醫療文件代理人的這個消極資格限制會產生一個很嚴重的問題就是本國並沒有所謂的遺體受證人遺體要不就是殯葬要不就是變成大體老師沒有遺體受證人怎麼會有遺體受證人不准他來做醫療文件代理人的這樣的一個需要把他納為醫療文件代理人的限制呢"},{"start":13046.354,"end":13062.959,"text":"更何況世界各國沒有任何國家會透過法律限制這個醫院人指定自己的醫療委員代理人剛剛其實也有先進提到這一點那這個基本上在目前的法學上會被稱為是一種法律的賦權"},{"start":13064.439,"end":13087.942,"text":"這是一個很明顯的違反病人自主權的精神所以就是基本上我特別多提一下其他的條文意思是希望引導所有的關心病毒法的夥伴能夠注意我們這次的修正是累積了六七年的經驗而且其中有80%是在現任部長"},{"start":13088.742,"end":13115.681,"text":"邱太元在擔任立法委員的時候就已經提出來的版本而且在當時獲得高度的共識可是只是因為政治的各方面的情勢的因素就是在上一個國會的上一屆國會沒有通過但是事實上在公聽會當中都取得高度共識的這些條文那我們希望雖然國內的政治仍然有各式各樣的複雜的因素但是這些涉及到專業的議題的"},{"start":13118.603,"end":13141.584,"text":"這一個法規範我們很盼望這個主管機關能夠協同其實或者也許我應該反過來講國會應該協同主管機關一起努力能夠把這些攸關民生的這些重要法案重要條文能夠去予以有效率的去通過來讓病毒法的這個落實"},{"start":13142.785,"end":13163.375,"text":"能夠更加有效率事實上像剛剛張啟凱委員他提到說只簽了0.5%太少啊所以需要善中法其實我是覺得這個論述稍微有點奇怪就是有關於拒絕醫療的這個自然法目前因為死亡的禁忌因為ACP要錢因為公共衛教的不足都還那麼不足我們連"},{"start":13164.756,"end":13182.184,"text":"我們連拒絕醫療的權利都尚且不太足的一個社會要去談更激進的這一個尊嚴善終我覺得是可能是稍微有一點為期過早我們應該先把自然死這一塊因為因為這個積極的這個安樂死那一塊涉及到議題比較複雜就以複雜人去這個"},{"start":13190.928,"end":13220.047,"text":"瑞士跟各位報告他去瑞士尋求的是醫師協助不是醫師協助自殺因為瑞士的醫師不參與自殺協助是去瑞士參與自殺協助組織所提供的自殺協助瑞士是禁止安樂死的禁止受阻托殺人的德國也是一樣禁止受阻托殺人禁止安樂死的所以不能說富大人在瑞士做了協助自殺回來結果回到我國就要推動安樂死"},{"start":13221.209,"end":13237.702,"text":"那以醫法還有醫學倫理的角度來講其實這些涉及到生死的這個醫療跟死亡協助相關的議題最具爭議性的就是涉及到殺人的安樂死其次是醫師不殺人我提供你死亡的方法這叫醫助自殺"},{"start":13238.442,"end":13258.879,"text":"再其次最不具爭議性的就是病人拒絕醫療的干預而進入自然死這個在醫學法律跟醫學倫理的角度來講全世界都知道最具爭議性的是安樂死再來是這個協助自殺再來是這個自然死的拒絕醫療我國連拒絕醫療都還不能夠"},{"start":13261.857,"end":13269.049,"text":"打開社會禁忌死亡或者是各式各樣的一些閉塞的風氣所以我們應該先努力把"},{"start":13270.331,"end":13296.885,"text":"這一個病處法推動的更加的完整成熟在這個基礎上面我們再進一步的去思考未來國家在死亡尊嚴這些議題上面我們可以有怎麼樣的一個發展好所以我就是針對整體做這樣一個說明那最後稍微回到一下第九條也許如果有夥伴可以幫我對好已經打到了其實如果大家如果去注意ACP的內容"},{"start":13298.464,"end":13301.359,"text":"主要就是這五件事情那以這五件事情來講說在"},{"start":13303.257,"end":13327.503,"text":"一三四五都是不是醫師的專長而且醫師如果不受ACP的訓練不了解病毒法的內容是沒有辦法講解第一款第三款第四款跟第五款的以第一款來講我常常就在培養ACP的人員的過程當中問包含PGY包含現在的已經包含組織醫師如果"},{"start":13330.458,"end":13356.955,"text":"病人家屬 如果病人本身意識能力是有瑕疵的是不太足夠的請問醫治到病主法要不要告訴病人還是要不要告訴關係人其實很多醫師是答不出來的或者是依據第幾條醫師在這種情形之下仍然有必要要告訴病人其實答案就是病主法第五條所以事實上本法對於這個知情"},{"start":13358.191,"end":13367.534,"text":"同意所做的規範是超出了醫療法63條64條的規範而且它是規範在本法第4條到第6條以及適應細則第3條到第5條內容相當的創新有別於現在現在的醫療法"},{"start":13376.775,"end":13398.686,"text":"就是過去的醫療法比較容易讓醫師連結家人一起對病人欺瞞病情但是病毒法已經不允許這種現象但是病毒法何以不允許這種現象在哪些條文裡面可以顯現的不允許這些現象其實一般的醫師是不知道的如果沒有受過ACP的訓練是不知道的"},{"start":13399.622,"end":13419.283,"text":"那三四五款涉及到孕醫療決定書的格式法定程序變更變更的程序撤回醫療人員代理人這些事情都是醫師不知道的沒有受過好的ACP訓練的人員當然其他的人員也不會知道所以這邊事實上關鍵就在於ACP的訓練好那最後我再集中到第二款"},{"start":13420.504,"end":13434.8,"text":"第二款像陳清輝委員就會強調因為譬如說類似局例子這個是不是三次復發就是末期其實末期只要大家回到詩形細則就會知道末期是有定義的"},{"start":13435.841,"end":13463.055,"text":"適應性的對於末期清楚的是根據安寧條例的末期定義去定義末期也是剛剛陳清輝委員有指出來的所謂的末期指的就是有醫學證據顯示病人的死亡於近期內不可避免說實在的做ACP的時候你只能講到這樣子你不能講別的我們的ACP裡面的醫師的資格叫做專科醫師但是能夠對各種末期病人進行"},{"start":13464.636,"end":13480.124,"text":"專業的診斷也就是一個病人是不是末期病人的是相關專科醫師今天一個腸胃科的醫師取得ACP的資格他遇到一個肺腺癌的病人他要他去解釋肺腺癌的末期會發生什麼狀況"},{"start":13481.621,"end":13510.008,"text":"我覺得是超過他的專業而且不是ACP需要的ACP需要的是讓所有的病人知道如果你一旦進入無論是癌症的末期或者是非癌的其他的末期你就會得到法律賦予你的一種權利自主的拒絕維持生命治療的權利這個才是重點那再如這個人工營養及流體餵養事實上當一個人處在"},{"start":13511.44,"end":13536.542,"text":"死亡逾境期內不可避免或者是第五款所描述的其實第五款非常重要第五款就是第十四條第一項所有五款最核心的精神也就是要告訴老百姓一件事告訴人民一件事情當你的疾病不可治癒你的痛苦是無法處理也沒有其他替代方案的時候大概就是目前我們的所謂的"},{"start":13537.483,"end":13563.144,"text":"末期以及二三四款的這些神經腦傷的不同的狀況處在這些狀況的時候基本上國家賦予你拒絕醫療的權利所以病主的這個ACP需要的是有關於臨床條件的部分的一個科普的解釋重點在於透過這樣一個科普解釋去說明法律上的權利而不在於對於這些臨床條件進行專業的醫學解釋"},{"start":13567.05,"end":13585.049,"text":"專業的醫學解釋跟診斷事實上是在AD執行的層次才需要事實上我自己在訓練各個核心講師的過程我常常發現一件事情很多醫師分不清楚什麼叫做永久植物人跟不可逆轉的昏迷但是事實上也不需要分那麼清楚"},{"start":13586.363,"end":13610.024,"text":"因為你只要讓病人知道讓醫院人知道如果你永久如何你不可逆的如何你的人格生命已經無法恢復的時候國家是許可你不必被按在維持你生物性的生命上面的那包含醫師在內對這些會發生什麼錯誤呢所謂的昏迷是指一個人既沒有醒睡的週期"},{"start":13610.945,"end":13635.384,"text":"也沒有意識所謂的植物人是說一個人沒有意識可是他有醒睡的週期所以我就有聽過醫師回答說所以植物人會醒過來所以會睜開眼睛我說錯了還是有例外情形如果顏面麻痺的話就算是植物人他眼睛也不會顯生過來所以你不會從外表可以分辨他是植物人還是昏迷所以其實這些議題"},{"start":13637.543,"end":13658.596,"text":"只要不是神內的這個專精的醫師其實是沒有辦法做深入的醫學上專業的一種說明但是我們在ACP階段也不需要這種深入的專業的醫學說明在ACP階段需要的只是科普的說明正如同我"},{"start":13660.583,"end":13686.383,"text":"之前已經用過醫療保險做例子醫療保險的業務員不需要是醫師可是他需要對於各種的醫療臨床條件還有醫療干預如數家珍為什麼因為那些都涉及到被保險人的醫療保險的保險給付一毛錢都不能夠差錯他自己本身不是醫師他也不能做判斷"},{"start":13687.318,"end":13709.915,"text":"他只要告訴被保險人你需要去跟醫院拿到相關的診斷證明跟你做了某種醫療干預的證明拿到這樣的證明之後回來自然我這邊就可以去幫你申請給付所以我用這個例子來說明就是說我們ACP跟AD的執行面是不一樣的AD執行面那邊需要醫療的專業"},{"start":13711.576,"end":13727.143,"text":"但是在ACP的這一個部分有關於臨床條件的說明基本上只需要科普程式的一個說明更何況整個ACP所包含的內容大部分都是有關於法律法律上的程序即使第二款"},{"start":13727.768,"end":13755.722,"text":"是涉及到醫療的概念它也是醫療科普的層次上面去對於在相關的條件下擁有什麼樣的法律權利的一種說明這個是我針對第六條再做一點補充不過我是覺得任何的法律如果有各種的不同的意見社會需要更多的溝通我自己個人也不會認為說要一次到位的全部的條文都要通過但是我這邊再強調"},{"start":13756.903,"end":13784.429,"text":"其實本法已經有非常多的條文目前提出來的條文是經過很多的共識那在今天也可以注意到那只是今天大家比較注意到第九條所以就比較忽略了其他其實也不亞於第九條的重要性的那些條文那我們盼望能夠透過這一次的努力在這一個主管機關跟國會一起"},{"start":13785.289,"end":13790.894,"text":"合作下面我們能夠順利的讓病株法進入他的2.0的時代好謝謝大家好謝謝孫教授的花言"},{"start":13797.493,"end":13819.898,"text":"聽你的話感覺比較像行政機關在綜合回應我要這麼講是這樣林氏也在現場林氏也有醫師背景這個病處的修正基本上我們也經過大體詢問然後也有一次的協調會那今天在白宮定會然後還的這個"},{"start":13821.954,"end":13840.398,"text":"這個討論的進展等下又要到實地去看這個病毒瓦的實行狀況然後也剛剛好就健保署在5月1號又擴大了整個這個給付的對象所以那意思是也自己把今年度從2萬要提升到4萬這樣的忽亮了那再的我想剛剛"},{"start":13844.38,"end":13853.816,"text":"剛剛坦白講 不管各位從任何的一個意見角度去探討這個事情大家好像都有一致的共識說這個擴大是勢在必行"},{"start":13854.775,"end":13879.883,"text":"那既然擴大是勢在必行那當然就必須要有相關的一些作為那這作為可能包含行政作為包含從法律的這個面向直接去做處理那才有辦法真正去擴大嘛那擴大當然一定要兼顧到品質嘛我想這在所難免的那所以我們透過這個剛剛特別提到整個立法的程序我們都完備甚至還辦了公聽會甚至還辦了"},{"start":13884.212,"end":13910.883,"text":"這個協調會那等一下到實地去了解那我這邊還是請公部門就是承擔起這樣的一個重責大任因為畢竟這個配合的健保署在5月1號的擴大這樣的一個處理的這樣的一個量能的情況之下我們希望這個量能提升除此之外品質一定要堅固所以這個修法的實際上面容我還是希望各位在我們要進入到這個法律的第二次的這個"},{"start":13911.79,"end":13931.033,"text":"討論的時候的之前是不是可以更主動的就請林次醫事室這邊 包含健保署都可以來跟這個病除瓦的最重要推手還有相關的執行面的醫事的先進大家可以再坐下來再好好討論一下"},{"start":13933.393,"end":13941.169,"text":"可以吧 可以了好 那我們在這個時間來做這樣處理好 那我就不再做任何的這樣的 因為"},{"start":13942.267,"end":13970.004,"text":"工廷會主席也不予發言太多謝謝學者專家及委員均已發言完畢行政機關也做整體的回應打出以下結論依據立法院職權行使法規定委員會應提出工廷會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者工廷會報告作為審查特定議案之參考我們會把各位寶貴意見及書面資料匯編成冊分送給本院的全體委員以及與會的政務機關"},{"start":13970.945,"end":13977.76,"text":"代表學者專家參閱那今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次公聽會到此結束散會謝謝"},{"start":14002.312,"end":14003.285,"text":"來 請"}]}},{"id":"16752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16752","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddd714ad69ae6c79141097cfa4245e41498b19dddded0b194f6dfeb394bf912d2a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會（事由：「我國媒體議價制度立法」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-12T08:30:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-12T12:18:00+08:00","duration":13663,"影片長度":"03:47:43","委員發言時間":"08:30:17 - 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各位大家早現在我們來開會各位議會的貴賓 協責專家我們主管機關大家早安今天本會舉辦我國媒體溢價制度的立法之公聽會"},{"start":1866.249,"end":1880.71,"text":"首先歡迎也謝謝各位寫者專家跟報社團體各媒體的機關代表蒞臨本會各位都寫有技嘉的專長"},{"start":1882.532,"end":1905.704,"text":"藉由這次的公聽會的安排那得以傾聽各位精闢的見解相信一定會有能夠為本院委員提供寶貴的意見在此特別感謝各位對於本次公聽會所做的各種準備以及花言"},{"start":1906.704,"end":1933.329,"text":"我們會即時的把它記錄在今天各位的高見以供本會審查本項法案的參考所以今天公聽會探討的議題提綱為基本也有事先寄發給各位請各位自行參考那現在我來"},{"start":1935.305,"end":1961.462,"text":"我來介紹在場的委員首先介紹我們張祺凱委員非常關心也是媒體人出身那現在我們來介紹寫者專家以及報社團體的代表首先我們來介紹王立達教授"},{"start":1962.603,"end":1987.193,"text":"還沒有到好 接下來我們台灣大學新聞研究所的林肇真教授國立台灣大學新聞研究所的教授林立穎教授國立台灣師範大學大眾傳播研究所的王維欽教授"},{"start":1989.182,"end":2000.65,"text":"國立政治大學傳播學院教授劉昌德教授中國時報社長金總編輯黃樹德社長聯合報系法務經理廖建祥經理自由時報法務專員黃秋選專員"},{"start":2016.052,"end":2032.095,"text":"藝師科技法律事務所所長賴文智賴所長國立台灣科技大學專利研究所助理教授黃泰蘭教授台灣新聞記者協會會長吳柏軒會長全國傳播媒體產業工會理事長閻文廷理事長"},{"start":2046.604,"end":2075.678,"text":"众立国际商务数位资权有限公司律师范国华律师国立政治大学传播协议院助理教授李怡智教授现在我们来介绍类席的官员首先我们来介绍数位部部长黄燕南部长"},{"start":2077.779,"end":2096.756,"text":"主任秘書 署長林俊秀署長國家傳播委員會代理主委 陳崇樹主委綜合規劃處處長 溫俊譽處長文化部政務次長 李敬慧次長"},{"start":2105.336,"end":2115.079,"text":"文化部我們出版師的師長楊庭真師長公平教育會服務業競爭處處長胡祖訓胡處長勞動部勞動條件就業平等師師長黃齊亞師長"},{"start":2130.36,"end":2139.165,"text":"職業安全衛生綜合規劃組組長 許立穎組長經濟部商業發展署組長 蕭夕東組長智慧財產製作前組副組長 吳奕林組長財政部國庫署檢任機合 楊博亨"},{"start":2159.522,"end":2178.779,"text":"複稅署專門委員林美惠國家科學技術委員會技術辦公室新興資通組代理主任郭子仙主任內政部合作及人民團體師專門委員陳敬庭專門委員華務部參事廖江憲"},{"start":2188.203,"end":2201.841,"text":"司法院行政訴訟懲戒廳法官陳彥霖行政院主計總署公務預算處專門委員吳明修基金預算處科長楊靖魯"},{"start":2205.697,"end":2221.604,"text":"好以上如果稍等一下我們再來做補充介紹好針對本日公聽會花言的順序先做以下先告寫者專家每位花言時間為8分鐘"},{"start":2224.985,"end":2240.033,"text":"請用你右邊的花園台花園台正對面有燈號是倒數的燈號花園時間結束前一分鐘會提醒一聲花園時間結束則會提醒兩聲"},{"start":2248.564,"end":2267.064,"text":"主席台也會按一項再提醒第二第一輪花園依照各位寫者專家圈道順序花園第一輪花園結束後如有需要補充花園再行第二輪的花園"},{"start":2268.445,"end":2281.803,"text":"三 原則上寫者專家兩位花園貨如有本宴委員到場就安插一位委員花園每位委員花園時間為五分鐘"},{"start":2287.489,"end":2309.535,"text":"委員花言請到主席台登記第五協則專家及委員的花言完畢後再請機關代表做回應以及意見表達暫定10點30分休息10分鐘現在請登記要不要給其他"},{"start":2312.226,"end":2320.228,"text":"現在請登記第一號的李怡智我們教授來花言請李教授"},{"start":2333.994,"end":2358.441,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位現場來賓 大家好因為我的身分比較多元 我以前是記者後來是平台業者現在在學校教新聞我在世間非營利跟公營的媒體擔任董監事所以我比較想討論的東西是跟媒體的資格有關的"},{"start":2359.361,"end":2384.075,"text":"那我們這個首先這個要議價或者要領這個基金的時候得先討論到底誰是新聞業者那我自己的教學跟觀察其實現在的人對於新聞這件事情是模糊的所以像館長這兩天在上海他的行為跟他的平台到底算不算新聞你去問很多閱聽人他會說這個是新聞"},{"start":2386.016,"end":2391.097,"text":"那所以這件事情得先討論一下就是我們到底"},{"start":2393.16,"end":2417.908,"text":"這個新聞的這個認定因為要議價或者領這個基金都必須要有一定的身份所以我自己的想法就是我們在認定到底誰是媒體機構的時候呢應該要有一個規範然後也不應該是就是人人有講然後所有人都可以那這個JSP跟NMBC他都有提到編輯室的規範那"},{"start":2421.829,"end":2435.975,"text":"這個我是覺得應該要有比較嚴格的認定的標準就是你雖然做的東西看起來很像新聞譬如說館長很多YouTuber做的東西很像新聞但他沒有編輯式的規範的話或者他沒有真正在落實他編輯式的規範的話應該不能視為可以領這個可以參與"},{"start":2442.138,"end":2463.512,"text":"這個基金分配或者是溢價的這個權利者那這裡呢包含了幾個第一個就是譬如說他他有沒有很詳細的這個編輯的流程然後accountability他記者的實際工作如何然後以及他的內容的形式因為我們現在看到很多媒體他雖然說他也有請記者"},{"start":2464.713,"end":2483.966,"text":"然後他也有很大部分的收入在記者上面可是這些記者原則上他不做採訪他完全都在改寫他把別人的稿件丟到CHPT之後說這個也是報導那所以他縱然有請記者縱然有產出可是他實際上工作的內容我覺得也要列入這個討論"},{"start":2486.067,"end":2514.666,"text":"那因為現在非常多的媒體他已經他已經很少原聲報導他大部分都是改寫或者雜匯或者評論或者解釋他做的東西都是都是非一手的資料那我這邊要提一個這個概念提一個這個建議就是無國界記者組織現在他有一個計畫叫這個這個Journalism Trust InitiativeJTI叫這個無國界"},{"start":2516.187,"end":2529.358,"text":"的這個新聞信任計畫那這個新聞信任計畫呢它是一個非常詳細的標準那我稍微給大家看一下它的題目我列出第二部分"},{"start":2530.665,"end":2553.594,"text":"你要被這個無國界記者組織的JTI認證的時候要回答大概250題的題目就不是說我說我是一個媒體機構我有請多少記者然後我的收入多少錢這樣就可以了這250題因為我自己有看過實際上填答的東西他填得非常非常細"},{"start":2554.514,"end":2569.211,"text":"然後包含你有沒有這個監察人然後你的員工有沒有接受過教育訓練那我覺得最起碼要經過這樣的階段我們才能夠認為他是一個可以有資格參與議價或者是分配的組織"},{"start":2571.363,"end":2588.703,"text":"然後再來量的門檻因為我自己在多個非營利媒體擔任董建師那就是目前非常多提案都寫就是年收入為一千萬的標準可是非營利媒體可能不一定加上捐款可以到一千萬因為一千萬也蠻多錢的"},{"start":2589.984,"end":2615.192,"text":"所以我是覺得應該還是要包含多元的訊號跟指標錢不是唯一所以對於非營利媒體或者是這個我們講獨立媒體那他的得獎然後他的流量他的影響力報告以及這個他有沒有這個嚴格的編輯機制我覺得是可以作為量的門檻那參考值的門檻跟量的門檻"},{"start":2616.192,"end":2632.078,"text":"那我們才能夠讓真正優質的新聞媒體參與議價或者是分配這個基金然後在平台這邊我的一些看法就是很多提案都寫到了這個境內月活躍人數是1000萬"},{"start":2633.579,"end":2653.452,"text":"那我自己以前在平台有工作十幾年的經驗月活躍人數1000萬其實是一個非常大的數量因為台灣才2300萬人那上網人口我們算2000萬人好了這個MAU要到50%其實是一個很高很高的門檻那這個寫法基本上你就認定只有這兩三家"},{"start":2654.252,"end":2683.812,"text":"需要議價而已但實際上真正可能會對新聞的這個經營造成影響的平台它不一定會到未活躍人數一千萬因為這個使用人數跟對媒體的侵害沒有必然的線性關係那我接下來想要再談一下就是我們從現在科技的發展來看我們現在在討論的譬如說Meta好了 Google好了它未必在這個短時間內它會是最大的侵害者"},{"start":2684.334,"end":2684.354,"text":"那"},{"start":2685.854,"end":2714.716,"text":"未來可能真正對新聞媒體造成侵害的是這個OpenAI或者Growk或者Pepacity這種的大型語言模型那他的侵害的獲利來源也不會是廣告收入那雖然OpenAI可能以後放廣告但是他現在沒有所以他有訂閱制然後還有另外一個是我們從外界不容易看到是API的收入有可能API的收入還大於這個訂閱的收入所以"},{"start":2715.416,"end":2732.792,"text":"他的侵害第一個是他的樣態不會是廣告他不是因為拿了你的東西然後去賺廣告然後再來他侵害的獲利範圍也不限於台灣因為他今天學了台灣媒體的寫法那使用者也可能是這個在海外所以"},{"start":2733.453,"end":2761.703,"text":"不應該只拿在台灣的廣告收入作為這個評估或者談判的標準那我是覺得應該參考美國現在幾家的案例包含紐約時報包含其他的媒體那他現在都分別跟這個平台在大型人模型平台在談這件事情那我覺得特別需要注意的就是這個open AI跟publicity這種模式那我這裡再給大家看兩個例子像publicity"},{"start":2763.353,"end":2790.967,"text":"這個你現在在上面查任何東西我們可以看到他這邊都引用了這個中央通訊社的內容那中央通訊社從來都沒有授權給他那他的使用者他實際上是付費的對不對他一個月的月費要幾十塊美金那他也沒有廣告的收入那我們實際上台灣的媒體是被他侵犯了那像譬如說這個我請他這個告訴我館長這次這個去上海然後怎麼樣怎麼樣那"},{"start":2792.011,"end":2813.719,"text":"我們來看他引用的source全部都是中央通訊社當然不只有中央通訊社所以這個中央通訊社應該也要有能力向publicity要到錢那我覺得這個是我們需要再往下注意的所以我的結論就是我們要保障新聞媒體首先要確定這個媒體的條件然後不要大國範就人人都有講謝謝"},{"start":2820.185,"end":2828.951,"text":"好 謝謝我們李一智教授那現在我們請第二位台灣新聞記者協會的會長我們吳博鑫會長來發言"},{"start":2853.154,"end":2867.72,"text":"各位前輩先進 大家好 我是台灣新聞記者協會會長吳博軒陳鋒壽要參加今天兩共聽會 僅代表第一線的工作者的立場來傳達記協針對新聞議價議題的一些看法跟分析"},{"start":2871.361,"end":2896.089,"text":"首先簡述記協今年是逢我們成立30週年我們是由新聞工作者傳播科系的師生組成的專業組織這樣子當初成立的一開始其實是依照人民團體法成立協會可是其實記協的骨子裡面仍然保留當年前輩們他們想要組織工會的協議這樣子所以我們也將促進媒體從業人員權益寫在記協的章程裡面"},{"start":2899.89,"end":2904.548,"text":"那針對新聞議價那就與媒體工作者勞動權益其實息息相關的"},{"start":2905.976,"end":2933.137,"text":"我個人從業15年 不算資深只是剛好跨越這個媒體數位轉型的一個年代記得我剛入行的時候其實最新手機跟行動網路都還不太流行我是騎車低頭看那個紙本的地圖這樣在跑地方的新聞那當然現在手機的一個行動網路越來越強大最新手機越來越強大只要在台灣不是太偏鄉隨時隨地都能夠發稿子 發帶子這樣子"},{"start":2934.798,"end":2960.936,"text":"可是越便利就也越加劇這種勞動控制與這種工作上的一個剝削再加上網路平台這種通訊軟體的一種盛行其實媒體就是被迫也開始進行一些數位轉型這樣子電子報還有即時新聞就大行其道那紙本的銷量也就跟著就是下滑出版業是首當其衝那新聞業就緊跟其後這樣子"},{"start":2961.641,"end":2988.353,"text":"所以接下來的就是為了在這種流量當道的這種環境中大家為了生存那新聞產制不是慢慢的一個變化而是極具體發生這種量變跟質變那我覺得在網路自由分享的一個年代人人愛分享但是大家就沒有想要特別去付費這樣子就訂閱制其實推動起來在國外的成功案例也比較少"},{"start":2989.318,"end":3004.69,"text":"那免費的其實最貴就套在新聞上新聞產制從來都不是免費的它背後都有第一線的工作者辛苦的採訪跟編輯還有校對那一定不是一份報紙這種十元、十五元能夠去支應"},{"start":3006.19,"end":3033.925,"text":"資本也從來不是靠訂戶啦那就像大家知道的現在比較流行的就YouTube他們或是說各種平台這種直播主這樣子他們也是不是靠訂閱去活而是靠所謂的業配可是新聞媒體它不是個體戶那大量的業配可能會嚴重侵犯侵蝕民眾對這種新聞的這種信任度那媒體的收入在目前來講還是以廣告是最穩妥"},{"start":3034.585,"end":3056.801,"text":"那當然其他媒體有其他媒體各式各樣的一個業外收入或其他的那這邊就暫不展開只是在廣告當中當紙本廣告隨著銷量影響大幅下滑再加上網路廣告的這種排擠效應那我們就試想一個廣告主他年度的預算一定就那些那他要分配到"},{"start":3057.765,"end":3084.721,"text":"紙本、電視、廣播甚至是網路那還有其他的管道各式各樣的管道它各有各樣的一些考量顯而易見的現在網路的廣告這一塊就吃掉廣告主這種蠻大一部分的佔比然而拿下網路廣告最大的大戶其實不是媒體業而是平台業所以對於新聞媒體工作者的這種相對剝奪感就會由來而生這樣子那媒體業"},{"start":3086.121,"end":3113.849,"text":"因為廣告收入過去就不用特別計較印刷或是說上架頻道等那些成本這樣子但如今網路廣告沒有辦法去彌補這些缺口所以媒體公司它的經營觀察下來就是蠻多就是可能停滯或是陷入困難那一大部分就會從一些人事費這樣去縮一截十進而去牽動第一線工作者的加薪跟福利"},{"start":3115.097,"end":3136.857,"text":"那衍生出來但現況就是媒體業的新人的起薪降低那有經驗者的薪資也不漲那甚至就會常態性的遇到這種職位欲缺不補那甚至經營不善的大量解雇也是有所聞關門倒閉那就更不在話下這樣子"},{"start":3137.622,"end":3159.078,"text":"可是偏偏我就講回來到我們第一線工作的困境其實因為數位資訊爆炸媒體從業人員如今的工作已經不像我早年那種入行那種樣子但我之前那其實前輩會更多的體悟因為現在都需要快速處理龐雜多元的各類的資訊我以前可能一天"},{"start":3159.818,"end":3178.207,"text":"因為我是報紙業 那我一天只要發一次的報紙的紙本的新聞回去可是現在 現在即時新聞的一個壓力下我假設今天這場記者會結束 可能半小時我就得把即時新聞發回去這是網路的一個快速 但也是它的缺點"},{"start":3181.118,"end":3195.644,"text":"但是新聞媒體它不是網紅所以它有一個狀況是它無法靠發布個人特色的這種內容來營造粉絲或是創造收入那媒體就會常常依賴相同重大事件"},{"start":3196.991,"end":3222.939,"text":"各家媒體就會形成所謂的競爭壓力那搶快搶獨家那只要及時進入晚一分一秒低線人員就會因為失去流量而遭責罵那進一步就會惡化工作權益那也這些壓力就會擊垮這些有心進入這一行的人我就看到蠻多的新人或許在這些低線的這種壓力之下或許產生不適應或許另有其他考量那有些轉業了那"},{"start":3224.719,"end":3249.931,"text":"留下來的人他可能也會因為這種工作樣態跟他的薪資其實是不符成本不符那種CP值的那甚至過勞這件事情在媒體勞檢這件事情也很難去勞檢出來那接下來我想要談一下的是演算法這個平台業者這邊他們其實從來沒有公佈他們篩選的演算法"},{"start":3252.171,"end":3278.954,"text":"早上才剛滑到一個影片就是Youtuber志宜七七他幾天前才剛講到一本新書叫失控的憤怒機器他其實就是談這些平台利用放大人們的這種憤怒情緒那短時間的形成所謂的病毒式的一種擴散然後它造成的影響是分化社群去削弱民族因為你看到一個憤怒的東西你就會快速的去想要分享這樣子"},{"start":3279.494,"end":3294.648,"text":"那媒體在這樣的一個影響下有可能也會因為內容又開始偏去更激進的內容部分可能就失去功力客觀那為了流量各家媒體就不斷的去嘗試例如說早期有聳動標題啊那種那種標題釣魚標題或是問號標題等"},{"start":3298.396,"end":3314.876,"text":"那你漸漸的媒體就會失去大眾的信賴你為了流量為了點閱率這些不是一些重要新聞它承載的是公益性與重要性所以民眾愛看的有時候不一定是非常重要的新聞但是演算法沒有把新聞專業跟價值納入考量範圍所以"},{"start":3317.239,"end":3344.162,"text":"最後變成說網路隨身插了阿媽阿狗的糗事趣聞就寫成即時新聞卻更登上排行榜這樣子大家努力花很多心血寫的那種專題報導就不會被推播這是一個惡性循環那甚至可能會影響到社會的觀感跟道德觀的建立不是台灣人民之福那除非演算法可以進一步的做好再給我一分鐘 不好意思所以今天公聽會我最主要想要討論的是"},{"start":3345.603,"end":3371.419,"text":"在新聞溢價的這種可能性之下我希望重申記協的立場是立法過程必須兼顧媒體公務者的權益希望未來在相關的機制裡面納入勞工的意見並提出實際改善勞動條件的方案包括加薪或是福利等等才能夠逆轉現在目前新聞業人才流失那媒體劣化這種局勢這樣子那新聞自由是一個國家民主化是否重要的一個指標這樣子"},{"start":3372.219,"end":3396.98,"text":"希望各界跟媒體業可以一起攜手讓大家找出一些努力的方向讓新聞可以發揮真正的社會價值謝謝大家好 謝謝我們記者協會的吳會長那現在我來補充介紹一下我們國立政治大學法學院教授王立達教授站起來跟人家打招呼一下"},{"start":3399.025,"end":3407.67,"text":"另外國立政治大學傳播學院劉昌德教授好"},{"start":3408.615,"end":3430.185,"text":"那現在我特別跟各位寫者專家來做報告一下所有的順序完全依照簽名順序而來特別跟大家解說一下並非說如何去安排是照你們簽名的順序而來"},{"start":3430.885,"end":3455.127,"text":"所以各位協助專家不要產生誤會說為什麼他先為什麼他慢所以這個你也知道立法院在做事情是有100億人有順序的所以請大家順序的問題我們就照簽名而來那現在我們請非常關心我們媒體朋友的本會也是民眾黨的副總召我們張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":3464.065,"end":3479.035,"text":"特別提醒一下五分鐘而已學者才是八分鐘拜託今天主角是我們很多專家學者話少講一點不過今天會報告很多好消息今天非常高興有這麼多專業的這個"},{"start":3481.772,"end":3508.786,"text":"代表來 我看到很多好朋友都是在新聞界非常資深還有很多這個學者 今天產力界代表也來那 請我跟大家報告一下 上媒體議價法這類火車事實上是已經開動了今天我看很多人是有點擔心啦 包括今天台灣新聞協界還有產業跟專業團體跟學生 他們今天在串聯今天發表聯合聲明 要求要拒絕這個平台剝削 然後這個搶救新聞產業 我有跟大家講"},{"start":3510.367,"end":3530.064,"text":"事實上媒體議價這個已經最近這幾年上市一直在往前推動當中那我跟大家報告幾個好消息之前我們台灣民眾黨已經辦過公聽會了更重要的在這個國審安排之下我們也辦過委員會的這個審查啦我先報告幾個比較重要的好消息今天"},{"start":3530.985,"end":3555.338,"text":"三大主管機關都在NCC還有這個數位部數位發展部還有這個公平會我要先讚美公平會公平會本來我們以前在開會的時候啊都擔心說他是主力不是助力可是公平會的主委來這邊還有在公聽會他們非常積極認識他們做了兩個事情很重要第一個在我們媒體議價的這個過程裡面本來擔心有壟斷的問題對不對"},{"start":3558.26,"end":3568.268,"text":"他們主委很清楚的說 這個條文裡面怎麼避免這個 他們會去幫忙就是消極面他們會去幫忙 更重要的他說積極面 我們去議價的時候 公平會要怎麼幫忙條文訂清楚 他們會全力幫忙來 我們發家垂涎 我們要謝謝這個 要非常感謝這個公平會然後另外呢 剛剛這個記者協會有在提啊"},{"start":3580.538,"end":3599.733,"text":"最近事實上已經有某些媒體 事實上已經跟那個郭火跟臉書他們都有一些 已經有些合作嘛 對不對那事實上在分證那個過程裡面 那個演算確實一直出了問題今天那個NCC的主委在現場 你那天有答應我嘛 對不對要去解決這個問題 去跟他們談清楚 好不好不能夠今天分證是1000萬 明天一下子變成100萬"},{"start":3602.495,"end":3620.673,"text":"就是因為那個演算的那個不透明嘛對不對啊你答應我要去做好不好所以公平會有開始往前跨進了然後呢這個NCC往前跨進了那數位發展部走了半步啦數位發展部現在經過上次會議他們也ignore最晚在年底他們會提出一個對案來"},{"start":3621.574,"end":3642.982,"text":"所以是讓大家的努力狀況之下都是有在往前走的那我們當然希望可能更快一點我們現在督促那個事務發布可能要快一點因為經過今天的公聽會之後或許我們再爭取看看有沒有可能在這個會計完成三讀好不好那進一步的來講是讓目前各個政黨三大黨國民黨有提法案民進黨也有提法案"},{"start":3644.246,"end":3663.662,"text":"民眾黨都有提法案那內容老講大同小異內容沒有差太多對於這個新聞是有價的不要做白宮然後這個每年有將近400億的這個平台的收益廣告收益400億喔那在全世界比較先進國家他本來分認就是有的嘛"},{"start":3664.79,"end":3686.188,"text":"那到底怎麼分認回來所以一方面新聞有價然後這400多億這個分認要什麼有哪些是要回來的這個大家都是有共識的好那目前要解決的是什麼國民進黨的版本是要成立一個基金民進黨是要成立一個基金國民黨是用強制溢價他就給一個法源啦那政府要什麼去幫忙"},{"start":3687.625,"end":3712.137,"text":"然後呢 臺灣民眾黨是雙管齊下 我們兩個都有大家可以看一下版本 這版本都已經有了而且大同小異那臺灣民眾黨現在非常清楚因為我們跟時間在賽跑所以我們雖然兩個管道都有提可是因為那個事務發布 事務發展部上次來開會有特別提他們是贊成的 可是現在碰到一個困擾就是現在川普的高官說要談判 對不對"},{"start":3713.595,"end":3730.217,"text":"他們怕基金會影響到所以上次有一個初步的討論了如果要跟時間賽跑要儘快完成這個三賭的話就是先不要用基金可是我們透過強制溢價強制溢價剛剛有這個代表在講說你在擔心什麼館長那些都不是問題啦"},{"start":3731.218,"end":3760.312,"text":"不會是問題 你自己的流量過 你有實力我們這個議價 強制議價是有兩個很重要的個別是可以議價的 你流量過了 你有影響力 你本來就可以議價聯合報可以去啊 自由時報也可以去啊對不對 你是TBS 你也可以去啊 三立也可以去個別可以去 這是一個第二個 我們團體也可以去就是在授權在這個法律上面是個別可以去 團體也可以去是多管齊下的 所以老實講這個沒有問題那政府的角色是什麼啊"},{"start":3761.472,"end":3786.722,"text":"趕快跟立法院合作第一個我們把法律的授權訂出來就是有強制議價這個授權要先訂出來這是今天開公聽會一個非常重要的我們把這個強制議價的法源把它訂出來然後進一步各個部會要怎麼去幫大家所以今天是會有進度的好不好大家不要太擔心那我們蠻期待的我們的聚焦在剛剛我提的各個部會已經提出他們的"},{"start":3787.822,"end":3797.889,"text":"提出他們的意見了而且看起來是正面的那各個黨團也都提出了解決方案了如果透過更透過大家今天這個很多的專業的意見盡量把它收攏我相信很快後期有機會我們這個會期可以再努力把它盡快通過好不好好 謝謝大家"},{"start":3804.192,"end":3826.723,"text":"好 謝謝我們張祺凱委員特別跟各位報告其實都有版本都有版本所以最後因為我們已經詢答完畢進行公聽會完全是聽我們寫者專家 寫友專精精闢的看法我們再來做審查這樣的話 那個法會較為完整"},{"start":3830.965,"end":3849.2,"text":"所以剛才齊凱委員已經講得很清楚是有在進步公聽會完了以後就會進行實質的審查所以今天的花園非常重要非常重要會讓委員作為一個非常主要的一個審查"},{"start":3850.641,"end":3869.29,"text":"特別跟寫者專家特別來做今天你的發言對立法院是非常重要的那現在我們請全國傳播媒體產業工會的理事長嚴文廷理事長來發言現在請"},{"start":3871.704,"end":3893.639,"text":"好還沒有花言前我再來補充介紹一樣是對我們媒體非常友善然後也是媒體人出身的我們本會委員非常關心非常關心也是有提案的我們王宏威委員好謝謝現在請理事長開始"},{"start":3895.596,"end":3915.73,"text":"各位老師各位前輩各位媒體同業大家好我是全國傳播媒體產業工會的理事長顏文廷那我們工會成立到現在已經第九年了我們為什麼會成立這個全傳媒的工會就是因為數位發展的時代下那即時新聞的"},{"start":3917.479,"end":3930.666,"text":"發展讓我們的工作條件是完全的劣化那我舉一個最簡單的例子以前我自己在報社的時候我一天只要發一次的截稿我那時候在晚報我待了十年的時間"},{"start":3931.874,"end":3951.126,"text":"我在晚報我只要中午前把稿子交出去就不干我的事了然後下午我可以認真的去找我明天要寫什麼我之後的專題要寫什麼這是我們以前的作業形態但現在 現在的即時新聞一天要發至少二十則 十幾則二十則一天工作才八小時"},{"start":3952.369,"end":3967.359,"text":"我到底要有多少時間 我還要上廁所 我還要休息 我還要吃午餐請問我有多少時間可以查證新聞那這個是我們目前媒體工作者的現況那這個只是即時新聞而已電子媒體也是一樣 以前我"},{"start":3968.16,"end":3995.736,"text":"在學生時代我在電視台打工的時候上午下午各一則新聞然後我只要上午跑完我中午交了晚上六點再交了這件事情就結束除非我有小夜班要執勤但我要講的事情是現在是除了上下各一則之外你在家還要在各做一則新聞什麼叫做在家各做一則新聞我舉個最簡單的例子像比如說今天可能某個委員他"},{"start":3996.576,"end":4024.842,"text":"有一個議題要發表或是說這個議題我想要找比如說立法院的哪一個委員比如說旗下委員來發言好了那很簡單我只要請他的助理幫我拍一則就是他的發言傳給我然後我再剪一個帶子這樣就做成一則新聞啦這樣的新聞品質要怎麼留住年輕人我們每次招進來的年輕人兩三年就走了為什麼你每天叫他抄新聞他沒有成就感啊然後一直被人家笑說是"},{"start":4025.982,"end":4051.898,"text":"小時候不讀書長大才當記者這樣的新聞情況下沒有人想要做這個行業那我們看到的危機是我們看不到下一代的年輕人願意從事這個新聞行業然後只說那怎麼樣比如說去大學演講舉手發問的問我們說那怎麼樣才可以當一個網紅那請問這樣子我們要怎麼培養我們的下一代那我是承接過去前輩"},{"start":4053.427,"end":4063.548,"text":"建立起來的新聞自由的環境那我自己有待到一點點的黃金時代那可是對我來講我從事新聞工作20年"},{"start":4065.066,"end":4083.077,"text":"我至少做過五家公司是倒掉的那這是我的環境但是我還是有經歷到獨家是有價值的舉例來說我在晚報的時候我寫了一個頭版頭的獨家所有人是會今天就是跟著這個獨家的新聞一直走"},{"start":4083.797,"end":4104.767,"text":"那這個是給我們一個成就感說這個新聞它是有價值的我每天認真的跑出一則好新聞它是有意義的但是現在如果我只是花了五分鐘十分鐘去抄一則新聞我連問都不用問我連回應都不用問我連查證都不需要請問這樣的工作環境有誰想要做那為什麼要推動"},{"start":4106.642,"end":4124.155,"text":"議價跟基金就是為了這件事情因為做這些事情他不會突然間冒出來他每天有需要花很多力氣才做的比如說以我現在在獨立媒體報導者工作做一則深度新聞需要一個月兩個月的時間我需要去看完所有這一個"},{"start":4125.476,"end":4152.147,"text":"制度它的缺陷在哪裡反問很多老師跟學者這個的問題在哪邊然後加上自己的判斷才能夠去完成那一份專題報導這個是需要時間的他不會一個小時兩個小時就出現所以這個內容如果數位平台他把它拿走了那他應該要有所付費或是有一定的給相當的回饋那這個回饋我們"},{"start":4154.967,"end":4172.72,"text":"勞動團體的立場就是你這個回饋要回饋到直接基層的工作人員身上因為他們才是真正需要花心力做這件事情的比如說像我以前待過非常多的媒體的老闆然後他就是要求你每天要交那麼多東西出來啊那你能怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4173.661,"end":4189.582,"text":"那我的意思就是說我希望這一次的公聽會我希望能夠去倡導一件事情是第一個新聞是有價的第二個我們需要再建立更好的機制去希望這些平台他能夠把"},{"start":4191.249,"end":4210.929,"text":"產生 產製出來的或是他分享出來的東西他能夠回饋到真正基層工作者身上那要怎麼回饋我覺得可以討論那另外一件事情是我需要講的事情是過去這件事情已經談了非常多次了但是政府部門每次都不找基層的勞工的意見"},{"start":4211.61,"end":4237.2,"text":"那我覺得這件事情是非常荒謬的因為只有我們才知道我們現在目前面對到什麼處境颱風天要出情然後颱風天要發新聞然後結果我好不容易跑到一個珍貴的新聞五分鐘就被其他媒體抄走然後或是被臉書或是Google分享走請問這樣有誰要做這件事情對啊我刮風下大雨我為了就是這件事情啊那如果我"},{"start":4238.96,"end":4260.949,"text":"給我自己的媒體沒有分享到這個點閱率的時候或是流量的時候甚至沒有讓我的媒體能夠獲得一定的比如說廣告的收益那請問為什麼我需要老闆需要支持這樣的記者做這件事情這個是整個是環環相扣的所以如果大家在討論這件事情的時候不管是要找"},{"start":4262.489,"end":4282.879,"text":"記協也好或是要找我們也好至少能夠聽聽我們的意見因為實際操作面是只有我們在操作我們才知道那個新聞是怎麼變出來的但是可是問題是現在目前就不是現在目前不是這個樣子好那最後我想要講的事情是另外一件事情是那個就是AI的演算法"},{"start":4283.459,"end":4308.654,"text":"那就是AI它怎麼產生模型的它其實是我上一句接下一句的機率有多大比如說我上一句講什麼下一句我要講什麼那下一句它會用那個演算的方式去算出下一句接什麼最合理那我的意思是說像這樣的東西如果我們的偶心力血寫出來的報導它能夠被這些"},{"start":4310.437,"end":4318.356,"text":"比如說確認GDP他們的演算去算出來之後那記者的工作他可能會消失"},{"start":4319.791,"end":4342.191,"text":"大家懂我意思嗎就是他不是一個不會被取代的因為他如果算得非常的精準甚至他可以知道我下一句要寫什麼然後甚至可以引述確實的消息來源那我要講的事情是這件事情已經在發生了很多新創公司都在進行這件事情那如果我們的報導無償或是免費的被人家搜尋抓走"},{"start":4342.992,"end":4370.493,"text":"那最後有誰要做新聞那這個是我覺得必須要下一步必須要謹慎的因為所有的人工AI的智慧模型全部都要計算這件事情那尤其是繁體製的世界那這個是有市場的那如果能夠從這邊去爭取希望他們在使用模型的時候付費那我覺得這是另外一個可以讓整個內容可以更好的一個方式謝謝"},{"start":4374.755,"end":4387.475,"text":"好謝謝我們顏文廷理事長現在我們請重力國際商務數位智慧有限公司換國華律師現在請換律師發言"},{"start":4399.228,"end":4422.368,"text":"主席各位先請大家好因為時間限制的話昨天收到通知花了大概四個小時的話呢做了一個網站這網站之中的話呢那要先跟各位報告畢竟我是法律人所以從法律的觀點去看這整部的一個草案三個草案的話呢為了做一個比對圖可是因為今天可能沒有辦法說可能再往前面好不好上面一點"},{"start":4426.161,"end":4435.245,"text":"那這邊有查案的比對比較圖嘛那基本上因為這個議題的話我第一個想法就是說這法律定義到底是什麼它是一個國內法還是國際法"},{"start":4437.428,"end":4458.246,"text":"對 它是一個服務貿易吧那服務貿易的話我們用國內法的方式去規範國際法的問題點的話這是第一個問題點似乎在整個法律案三個桃案都沒有提到那我們可以看到是三個桃案都在講一個問題就是我們就直接拿澳洲的版本來作業吧那我們再去看澳洲版本之外呢還有加拿大的版本"},{"start":4459.042,"end":4476.943,"text":"那再來看其他的都是英美法的版本英美法的版本跟我們最大的差異在於我們大陸法系我們公法跟司法之分呢英美法系不用啊反正同一個法院就可以就機了所以在這個問題點之下的話第二個問題點是那我們大陸法系我們該怎麼定性它呢"},{"start":4477.523,"end":4505.802,"text":"那媒體的權利是一種權利嗎所以我們看歐盟 歐盟就說好吧 我用著作權的迎接權吧不要搞澳洲講的那一套叫做數據權因為數據權內容的話呢真的要做一個智慧產權類比它是類似於營業秘密營業秘密是因為WTO之後呢去談下來說乾脆比照智慧產權方式來作業那我回到待會法系的問題還是我們到底要給一個媒體跟所謂的平台之間怎麼做利益平衡"},{"start":4506.542,"end":4524.282,"text":"你要利益平衡的話呢 就是一個問題就是這種所謂的這種媒體溢價的這個權利到底是一個特權還是一個power 權利 力量的力還是一個right我們大陸法系講的都是權利不是講power 也不是講privilege不是一個特權"},{"start":4525.103,"end":4540.077,"text":"那在這種情況之下我們硬要將草案之中就直接強制用公權力的方式然後呢介入私權的私權還沒有紛爭是一個利益分配的問題那這部分的話利益分配就要講這是一個內容產業從傳統的"},{"start":4543.119,"end":4566.215,"text":"資訊的傳播是透過所謂傳統媒體到新媒體的發聲是因為所謂的新科技的影響那一路走下來的話會產生影響的話會有哪些那基於時間限制的話我們先就第一個問題我要講的是第一個前面的問題就第四權跟數位內容權利歸屬到底是誰的媒體說這是我的權利嗎還是我報導別人之後呢我會有一個著作權"},{"start":4567.296,"end":4584.226,"text":"往外延伸的凝結權而這凝結權的話以我目前的著作權法的一個立法來看只承認兩種而且是屬於所謂著作權人的凝結權並不是像什麼博恩公約或是歐盟所主張的那個樣子那因此呢如果我們現在草率的立法的話"},{"start":4585.506,"end":4612.605,"text":"我相信紛爭很多它就會上升成國內法變成國際貿易法問題這就是一種所謂的非關稅比例貿易障礙那這個制裁點的話肯定會發生同時一反而來看我們國內的話是公法到底是要向行政法院還是要向什麼呢還是要向普通法院第一個究極途徑就會產生問題那這個是一個不管怎麼樣WTO鄉下之中我們司法制度不能解決立法的問題"},{"start":4614.213,"end":4631.789,"text":"那再退一萬步而言我個人認為是說這個整個內容產業化從媒體到新媒體甚至到平台甚至到現在所在AI的部分的話的確它橫跡可以看到的話有些利益的衡量這是一種賽局這賽局中怎麼做利益分配"},{"start":4632.669,"end":4655.062,"text":"整體而言新的技術取代了舊的產業之中的業者必須要做一種填補還是一種強制的種材必須要撥一定利益交給其他人因此製作設計之中會變成一個平台業者是一對多為什麼呢我們只要媒體認定是他可以一個一個來"},{"start":4656.923,"end":4677.623,"text":"那再來呢我們被訴求的數位平台他一個問題是說你們可以一起來嗎不行我們現在的草案全部都不行那只有所謂的媒體自己想一起就一起不想一起就不要一起這就是最簡單的問題你當然會想要一起去跟數位平台要錢嗎不會的所以這溢價制度的話它會產生一種"},{"start":4678.464,"end":4706.275,"text":"天秤上的偏離而這種偏離的話就是屬於保護內國產業還是跟國際產業也就是說保護內國的新聞媒體還是屬於跟國際上的數位平台做一個競爭所以它會變成內國法走向外國法的一個爭議這是可預得到的同時我們去導入的話沒有考慮到公法跟司法沒有去定性它的權利的話在法院上 在司法上面的話我要秉出司法的救濟"},{"start":4707.555,"end":4723.53,"text":"所以這有點一團亂就是說我們基於一個綠色立場來看我看不出所以然因此我在建議版本中有提到一個點就是說那是不是在申請的過程之中的話應該讓專業人士介入譬如說財務報表你要快速簽證嘛那小安中我沒看到"},{"start":4724.4,"end":4743.249,"text":"那第二個的話呢如果說溢價不成的話要進入到強制不管是強制仲裁或什麼樣程序的話那是不是也應該要有什麼呢媒體本身不管你錢多錢少你還是要救你是否有權益受侵害你要提出一個報告嘛有時候自我的檢查一個禁止報告"},{"start":4744.366,"end":4767.394,"text":"出來你也透過財務顧問或是律師或是會計師提出一個第三人去看合法程序以及他的流程的設計的話是符合一般的財務報表編制原則我們才是說這個部分的話你要去要求政府去介入的話然後用一種強制力使得所謂平台願意或是不願意就範"},{"start":4768.334,"end":4790.354,"text":"那同樣的你還是要保護這個平台啦那平台說我要救濟的時候怎麼辦一看我到底要向普通法院還是向行政法院救濟目前的草案完全看不出來那因此我們是不是還加第二個定性關於所謂的主管機關的話我們現在有雙重措施啦公民交易委員會的話你要申報就可以避免所謂的聯合行為嘛"},{"start":4790.974,"end":4818.228,"text":"那第二個的話 目的世界主管機關 設計師訴發部那訴發部這邊的話 他就要去決定什麼了他就要決定說 你來申請之後我要准那准了之後呢 我可能要通知數位平台那數位平台的話 他可以來 可以不來而我們現在草案 只有一個草案之中有提到說有罰則有時候我通知你 你竟然不參與 那我罰你五萬到五十萬吧 如此類的那這個金額"},{"start":4820.649,"end":4833.674,"text":"數可太少了同樣的這個通知的話呢平台能不能救濟如果不能救濟的話呢不能救濟的話等於是什麼呢人為刀鼠數位平台為魚肉"},{"start":4835.653,"end":4851.008,"text":"這也不是一個好的方式如果從國際貿易角度來看的話你這個台灣的立法根本是欺負人即使它是一個某種形式的壟斷可是它競爭非常的夠那尤其走到AI這部分的話呢很多是這樣"},{"start":4852.341,"end":4876.981,"text":"新的科技一往上走你的新創的話投資10億美金一樣照倒這種倒法的話會比所謂的舊媒體倒更壞那所以這怎麼做利益平衡的話呢我就要看所謂的平台的行為是否跟新聞的行為之中它有沒有一個同點的那如果說直接是直接是抄襲新聞媒體的非屬所謂事實的報導有加自己的意見的話那是屬於侵害著作權的行為"},{"start":4877.942,"end":4892.491,"text":"可是整理媒體的報導之後做成一些利用那是另外一個行為和數據權我想簡單來看的話就跟各位報告到這裡簡單來說這個事情要不要做 需要做可是必須要謹慎為之 謝謝"},{"start":4896.257,"end":4917.219,"text":"好 謝謝我們換律師我們由皓浩委員因為把時間讓給各寫者專家所以現在我們就請王維欽教授我們師範大學大眾傳播研究所的教授王維欽教授來花言"},{"start":4922.859,"end":4938.028,"text":"主席各位委員各位朋友大家好我這學期第一次開一門課叫傳播產業我想這門課以後我應該會把它改名字應該就傳播產業改名悲慘的慘"},{"start":4939.608,"end":4965.258,"text":"那這個教育本來應該是要帶給學生這個動力跟希望的可是這門課我們卻上到上到後來大家心情真的都很差那因為我們看到的是這個在課裡面看到的是台灣傳播產業這個生產規模還有它的生產資源實在少到讓人家震驚跟尷尬我不知道政府有沒有看到這件事就是我們的傳播產業的這個生產的資源跟規模真的少到讓人家尷尬"},{"start":4969.8,"end":4991.732,"text":"那工作者啊 薪資啊 低到啊 真的讓大家覺得非常非常的難堪喔那我們這堂課裡面有一個同學喔 他其實是在這個一個大報 真的是大報的這個健康醫療版裡面喔 當工讀審那我就問他說 欸 佳娟呢 那你以後這個畢業以後要不要就留下來就轉正職"},{"start":4993.573,"end":5011.751,"text":"那他告訴我說老師你知道我轉正職以後薪水多少嗎我說多少他說三萬四各位我二十年前在同一家報紙大概二十年前同一家報紙我的大概月薪是四萬五然後還可以領四點五個月的年終獎金"},{"start":5013.178,"end":5030.152,"text":"為什麼二十多年薪水怎麼會是從四萬五變成三萬四雖然他是編輯我是記者可能有差一兩千塊可是你們可以想像嗎台灣的物價通貨膨脹有多嚴重結果記者的薪資倒退到不如二十年前"},{"start":5031.172,"end":5049.117,"text":"剛好報業的一個老朋友也告訴我們說他們最近報社來了一個政治組的記者非常非常優秀跑不到一個月就跟他們說不好意思我要去送Uber Eats因為這樣比較可能活得下去我覺得面對這些狀況"},{"start":5055,"end":5078.865,"text":"我們老師們難過的並不是說那就是新聞傳播教育要崩盤了我們快要沒有學生了我覺得我們很難過的是作為一個老師我第一次覺得教育並不是在幫助學生反而是在害他們好像走向一個低薪跟苦勞的道路其實這是一種很沉痛的心情我不知道各位是不是可以想像"},{"start":5080.066,"end":5090.686,"text":"那對這種困境我覺得身為老師我們今天在這邊也已經無法再無動於衷了自己在那裡歲月靜好然後看不到學生的這種困境"},{"start":5092.179,"end":5114.893,"text":"好那新聞業的崩壞啊其實他傷害的不只是學生而已沒有資源生產好的新聞喔那些粗製濫造過度簡化過度這個簡化推因然後聳動的新聞只會繼續傷害我們的民主然後惡化我們的社會對話那也製造對立傷害我們每一個人"},{"start":5116.766,"end":5137.464,"text":"好 那所以其實很多傳播學界的這個師生非常非常希望政府跟立法院要儘速通過這個新聞溢價跟基金的立法然後藉此來重建台灣的新聞經濟生態那各位不知道有沒有注意到其實學界也發起了跟這個新聞界一起的連署"},{"start":5138.024,"end":5164.571,"text":"那現在這個發起人有116位其中有64位是傳播的教師而且是來自國內18家不同的大學的新聞傳播系所我想這是台灣傳播學界首次而且也是在台灣那個學門裡面非常非常少見的就是特定領域的這個教授啊集結起來對政府做的這個大規模的這個抗議"},{"start":5167.387,"end":5190.783,"text":"我們今天其實也開始開放產學界的連署歡迎大家告訴大家大家趕快一起來連署我們想要讓政府看到新聞傳播界對立法的期盼我們也希望各政黨的立委盡快通過法案不要拖延也不要阻礙立法"},{"start":5191.623,"end":5211.635,"text":"我相信所有台灣的新聞傳播人的眼睛都在看這件事我們也都不是可以被政府跟政黨操控胡弄的笨蛋針對新聞溢價跟基金立法現有的草案版本以下這邊我大概也提供四點建議"},{"start":5213.117,"end":5233.771,"text":"好第一個建議是從平台獲得的這個授權金或分潤應該要立法明定提撥一定的比例必須專用於改善新聞工作者的薪資待遇這一定要放進法條裡因為大家很多人會說那媒體拿到這個分潤拿到授權金以後"},{"start":5234.651,"end":5254.611,"text":"他會去改善這個工作者的條件嗎那這不是我們想要的所以麻煩請把這個提破一定比例專用改善新聞工作者待遇放進去法條例好那如果成立基金的話也應該要有規定一定的部分是要用來改善新聞工作者的工作權益"},{"start":5257.937,"end":5276.808,"text":"第二點因為小型的新聞媒體規模比較小它的議價能力也比較有限所以我們也希望說立法中應該要保障小型媒體可以參與聯合議價政府應該要建立機制或平台協助這些小型媒體聯合上平台議價"},{"start":5278.028,"end":5295.893,"text":"提供包括像法律諮詢 協商的程序協調窗口的資源或設立媒合平台來幫助小媒體跟平台協商這是要避免弱勢媒體被排除在外然後維護新聞的多元發展"},{"start":5299.349,"end":5322.92,"text":"好 第三生成式人工智慧平台也應該要納入規範並要求他要這個有授權金支付的義務那有鑑於生成式AI利用新聞媒體內容進行模型訓練那也做成這個生成摘要那他現在已經逐步取代這個搜尋引擎"},{"start":5323.94,"end":5348.345,"text":"他未來將是對新聞產業最主要的影響者所以其實人工智慧應該要跟其他數位平台同樣都承擔溢價而且支付授權金的這個義務那實際上現在世界上像OpenAI還有AmazonAI其實都已經在做這樣的事了他們都已經在付授權金給媒體了那包括像付給德國的媒體紐約時報美聯社等等"},{"start":5351.786,"end":5363.377,"text":"好 那第四我們也建議法案中要列入要求包括平台對新聞排序的演算法的穩定性跟公共性原則媒體其實對這個受害很深"},{"start":5365.618,"end":5382.307,"text":"因為平台常常無緣無故的去改變這個牌序或他的這個算法好 那首先對於這個合法授權或正在進行溢價協商的新聞內容不應該無故降低他的曝光或牌序那以確保這個溢價協商公平有效性"},{"start":5383.083,"end":5397.711,"text":"好 第二凡涉及重大公共利益跟社會重要議題的新聞內容應該要提高它的路出跟排序那這是為了要維護資訊的公共價值確保公眾的知情權"},{"start":5399.092,"end":5418.802,"text":"第三 盡可能維持新聞內容排序跟演算推波的穩定性跟可預測性主席不好意思 可是再給我大概一下下就好了避免未經這種充分預告或任意的去改變流量的限制或排序的調整這是為了要幫助新聞媒體可以穩定營運"},{"start":5420.943,"end":5438.874,"text":"最後在這個合理跟技術可行的範圍內希望盡量公開演算法排序跟推波它的主要原則或影響參數希望可以促進公平競爭公開透明以及強化平台的公共苛責性以上 謝謝"},{"start":5440.475,"end":5452.427,"text":"好 謝謝王維欽教授的花言現在我們請政治大學傳播學院的劉昌德教授花言"},{"start":5464.119,"end":5473.646,"text":"主席然後在座的委員主管機關還有各位學者專家大家好那我是國立政治大學的"},{"start":5474.682,"end":5495.607,"text":"文學院教授劉昌德那同時另外一個身份目前另外一個身份是華視的總經理那所以我今天大概會以這樣的兩個身份來提供個人的一些研究跟實務上面的經驗跟前見那我先簡單的說我在對於這個法條上面的一個"},{"start":5496.347,"end":5519.965,"text":"基本的看法第一個是我覺得一定要去討論這一個而且要就是要對平臺科與責任那這個政府立法這個事情是刻不容緩的那基本上我就是認為說在整個傳播界裡面這個能力越大的那當然責任就會越大平臺現在能力最大"},{"start":5520.385,"end":5540.68,"text":"那當然他的責任也就最大未來如果OpenAI各種AI的這樣的業者能力越大他們的責任也就應該越大那這一定要由政府來作為一個不管是協調或是強制的一個角色這是第一個我的想法那第二個想法是在我們在"},{"start":5542.261,"end":5569.904,"text":"業界還有研究的一些經驗裡面我覺得最重要的是平台的不管是演算乃至於商業的機制要再進一步的透明化那第二個就是接下來我們在立法上面我自己的想法是基金優先 溢價當作後盾那這些都是由我的一個經驗來做邏輯上面的一個討論然後再跟大家來就教"},{"start":5571.295,"end":5597.34,"text":"那首先我想我就我自己長期的這個身份作為一個傳播學者而且我在2022年的時候參與也主持了雜誌業跟報業的一個相關的跟平臺上面的一個研究產業的一個調查那這個調查裡面我們看到最重要的一個狀況就是這十多年來的狀況就是平臺藉由壟斷"},{"start":5601.178,"end":5602.303,"text":"閱讀收視的管道"},{"start":5603.717,"end":5629.592,"text":"已經成為最大的這個我們說在傳播裡面傳播管道裡面最大的一個地主那平台藉由這樣的一個身份讓我們這些內容業者成為它的電農那這個是我們現在看到的現象那這是有根據的就是我們用簡單的我們最媒體最重要的廣告收入來看在這十年之間呢其實台灣的廣告量就這個"},{"start":5630.752,"end":5641.922,"text":"總而來說它是成長了45%但是在這裡面只有網路是成長的只有網路的廣告是成長的它的佔比從原來的32%2015年的32%提高到2024年的71%那電視也就是我現在在的這個產業"},{"start":5651.75,"end":5677.645,"text":"相對來說衰退了30%其中有線電視跟無線電視各自衰退了三成或是一成五左右那我們的佔比尤其是無線電視目前的佔比只到了大概3.5%而已那平面呢 更慘就是如果我們完全看平面媒體的廣告的話就是不計算這個數位的收入的話它的佔比已經從過去的17%左右"},{"start":5680.103,"end":5696.782,"text":"降到了不到2%那裡面不管是報紙跟雜誌在裡面的佔比都微乎其微那也就是大家都非得到網路上面來尋求這樣的一個廣告量那為什麼說在這樣狀況下面平台成為一個地主"},{"start":5697.842,"end":5713.007,"text":"當大家的這個就是我們所有的用戶的習慣轉到手機轉到轉到平板各種移動裝置的時候他藉由壟斷這個gatekeeper的這個角色其實讓我們不得不跟他合作"},{"start":5713.647,"end":5729.594,"text":"那如果我們現在回到政府的做法我要說議價分潤這件事情其實就是我喜歡用一個比喻就是1950年代到60年代台灣的土地改革"},{"start":5730.424,"end":5748.505,"text":"我們現在在做的 如果我們要強制溢價 就是375減租就是希望我們可以分到更多的地租但是這個到底對於媒體的產業的處境有沒有根本性的幫助 我認為沒有後來我們的土地改革做了什麼 我們做了耕者有其田"},{"start":5749.997,"end":5778.42,"text":"也就是讓我們能夠真正掌握自己的管道我們才能夠真正的留住我們需要的這些廣告營收進而達到剛剛王維京教授講的還有就是我們的工會朋友說的怎麼樣再回到我們的那個工作者身上這樣的一個方式你勢必要把這一些廣告收入還有廣告計算的方式都能夠讓媒體的業者能夠有所掌握"},{"start":5779.381,"end":5785.486,"text":"不然我們就只是等待人家的施捨而已那這個是我在研究裡面的一個發現"},{"start":5787.5,"end":5815.976,"text":"那我現在在提供一些我個人在目前媒體經營上面的一些經驗來作為參考剛剛提到這個廣告流失其實說老實話很多人也會說那我們就是在市場的競爭之中敗退下來可是各位也知道就是我們研究發現裡面都會指出還有我們的產業界的朋友都會說其實平台上的內容都是我們提供的"},{"start":5817.096,"end":5843.288,"text":"那我們當然也願意用這樣的方式來換取各種可能的收入可是現在的狀況是什麼如果是臉書我永遠不知道我今天這一篇貼文到底觸及多少人我只看到數字我不知道為什麼這個演算法是不透明的YouTube也有類似的狀況我同樣的一個操作方式"},{"start":5844.383,"end":5872.151,"text":"可以前一個禮拜的流量是20萬30萬下一個禮拜突然降到5萬我不知道為什麼我不知道為什麼那這些演算法其實讓我們無所適從更重要的是他們來的分論永遠不告訴我這個比例到底是如何計算我的確有收到但是我不知道我為什麼拿到這樣的錢"},{"start":5874.008,"end":5882.545,"text":"那更不要說在我們溝通的過程裡面剛剛說我的確有收到其實我的同仁告訴我比方說我這邊要特別講一下臉書"},{"start":5885.203,"end":5911.924,"text":"臉書去年就是華視在跟臉書溝通的過程裡面他們曾經要我們提出就是一個商業的證明證明我是真正的一家合法經營的公司那這個當然對華視來說是有點天打雷就是說非常震撼因為我不知道我要去證明我是一家真正要再經營的公司所以我們就提供各種英文的譯本什麼然後到美國去總共"},{"start":5913.272,"end":5939.408,"text":"讓我們等了八個月我們才開始拿到收入我們在跟跨國業者的協商談判裡面遭遇非常非常多的困難其實都是因為我們的媒體的規模太小我無法跟他真正對等的協商這也是我要說的為什麼溢價這件事情雖然我認為非常合理而且應該要做但是以現在台灣媒體市場碎裂化的狀況下面讓"},{"start":5940.769,"end":5951.014,"text":"個別業者甚至是聯合會舉例來說電視學會所有無線電視的聯合會來跟他協商我們都沒有把握能夠"},{"start":5952.677,"end":5978.898,"text":"要到我們應有的權益這個是所有媒體業者都承認的那現在要怎麼做為什麼我說基金優先基金優先的意思就是由政府出面幫台灣的媒體跟大型的平台以及之後也許會更大的AI業者來做協商這才是我們在媒體業者看到的在整個產業裡面協商過程裡面看到的最好的出爐"},{"start":5979.518,"end":6002.21,"text":"所以我認為我們不只要雙軌制而且應該是基金優先 溢價作為後盾以上意見提供大家參考 謝謝謝謝我們劉昌德教授現在請非常關心我們本案的也是提案人之一的王洪威委員發言"},{"start":6009.923,"end":6028.994,"text":"好五分鐘五分鐘好趕快好我首先要謝謝我們林國成委員還有我們交通委員會在今天召開這場公聽會可以再聽到產官學對於我們的媒體溢價制度的立法大家再來做說明"},{"start":6029.674,"end":6057.257,"text":"那另外呢就是在6月12號我們已經看到了台灣媒體的非常特殊這次是包含新聞學界業界還有專業團體以及學生都聯合發表聲明也就代表大家認為這個立法事實上已經到了迫在眉睫的一個程度所以我們在現在在立法院我們都希望能夠加速修法的腳步"},{"start":6058.218,"end":6080.598,"text":"那另外呢 我先回一下剛才劉昌德教授所講的 就說希望用基金的制度那我的提案是用溢價 用強制溢價的方式那我跟大家提供一下 就是因為我們都持續關心所以呢 述發部呢 有回覆我的辦公室的資料 當然有關於這個媒體溢價的部分呢"},{"start":6081.318,"end":6107.205,"text":"不管是基金啊或者是用強制溢價其實速發部到目前為止都是反對的一個立場那特別是在基金制度的部分他的回覆是說這個基金制度模式需要穩定的收入來源他說課徵數位稅恐重複課稅而且現在美國政府保護美國科技產業可能招致貿易關稅報復所以現在採取基金的話"},{"start":6110.586,"end":6130.08,"text":"非常有可能授予包含我們的政府抒發部甚至美國政府的一個所謂的因為現在大家都知道在貿易戰所以我們在這個部分呢我們還是朝這個以強制溢價來做進行免得又被他們橫身肢解找到一些理由"},{"start":6131.121,"end":6155.474,"text":"因為剛才那個主席跟我講說大概三分鐘所以呢有關於大家所剛才提到的部分我這邊就不贅述包含就是台灣的數位廣告事實上大部分絕大部分都是被這個國外的這些社群平台所拿走那另外我覺得我特別提一下"},{"start":6156.394,"end":6166.762,"text":"就是在這樣的一個非常被壓榨的一個狀況之下其實台灣的媒體已經走入了一個其實非常不正常那麼"},{"start":6168.971,"end":6189.598,"text":"以每一早電子報在今年4月28號所發布的民調認為政治力介入媒體的受訪者高達70.8%所以連台灣大多數的民眾都知道我們的媒體被高度的政治力介入何以置之"},{"start":6191.599,"end":6209.859,"text":"我想我自己也是媒體出身 媒體都會希望有一個公平獨立的一個從業的環境但是呢 大家知道媒體生存越困難 它就越仰賴政府的媒體採購政府媒體採購越多 政治力介入就越深"},{"start":6210.76,"end":6227.128,"text":"政治力介入越深媒體的公信力就越低媒體公信力越低台灣的民主就越向下沉淪我相信所有不管來自於學界或業界的媒體朋友都可以同意我剛才所說的"},{"start":6227.802,"end":6255.103,"text":"所以如何去改變 除了讓我們的媒體專業應該要有合理的利潤也是在拯救說 台灣媒體公信力不能被這樣看輕 不是嗎然後在這邊 像無國界記者組織也指出但它也指出 其實很多國家的媒體都面臨這樣的一個生存越來越惡劣的一個環境"},{"start":6256.184,"end":6277.526,"text":"所以他也提到台灣媒體普遍為追求利潤所苦也造成公民沒有辦法獲得客觀的資訊這是現在的現存的狀況因為只有一點點時間 那我來趕快跟大家報告一下在我們的修法裡面 我剛才特別報告 我們是以強制溢價為主"},{"start":6279.088,"end":6306.084,"text":"但是呢未來在我們討論裡面我們可能會有以上的提案以下的提案那也歡迎所有今天與會者如果您關心或者覺得這樣的一個方向可能會造成你的重大損失或者是你覺得這不合理的地方也隨時歡迎跟我們辦公室聯絡好我們在我在原來提案裡面我們可能會做一些修正動議的部分是"},{"start":6306.804,"end":6324.495,"text":"譬如說剛才提到有關於AI大家都知道現在的這個AI生成模式其實也大量使用我們媒體的資料它是未來的趨勢那我們當時在提案的時候沒有把這一部分納入考慮所以這個部分可能是會在我們未來的在修正動議裡面再做把它納入"},{"start":6329.998,"end":6355.196,"text":"另外一個就是那有很多人認為強制溢價小型媒體就很慘啊他怎麼去溢價呢可能連在台灣數一數二或者都已經大家耳熟能詳的媒體都認為沒有能力所以呢我們未來也應該給小型媒體做聯合溢價的一個空間那這當然他就要排除一些現行的一個相關的法規那另外的部分呢就是"},{"start":6356.837,"end":6385.016,"text":"當媒體有分潤的時候那麼我們也希望提出一定的比例能夠直接落實到我們的真正的媒體從業者就是第一線的工作人員讓他們也可以分享到這個分潤的成果所以以下呢是我們可能在未來修法進入直接修法我們會有一些再修正動議的方向在這邊也先跟大家做一些預告"},{"start":6387.058,"end":6400.106,"text":"謝謝大家今天來參加公聽會也希望大家的一個力量支持我們能夠在這個立法上面能夠加速腳步那麼至少在國民黨團還有民眾黨團我們會盡量我們兩個黨團因為現在的我們的版本不一樣但是我們有絕大的誠意一起來討論出一個大家都比較可以接受的一個版本加速修法的進度以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":6417.224,"end":6424.49,"text":"好 謝謝我們王宏威委員的花言現在請中國時報社長兼總編輯我們黃樹德社長花言"},{"start":6440.678,"end":6459.217,"text":"大家早安我是中國時報的社長兼總編輯我今天的發言是代表台北市報業工會台北市報業工會應該是台灣新聞媒體裡面的工會歷史最悠久 組織最健全的事情"},{"start":6460.819,"end":6477.739,"text":"因為我們的工會是一個民主制所有的決議都是經過工會代表的同意我想是這樣子就是說今天我們在講新聞有價這件事情我覺得應該是這樣說"},{"start":6479.861,"end":6493.255,"text":"就是一個國家新聞媒體報導的品質有關這個國家的民主政治的發展的基石也就是說這個國家有越多的優質的媒體這個國家會"},{"start":6496.138,"end":6522.057,"text":"越進步人民生活會更好所以今天我們講這個事情不是講一個產業也不是講一個公司我們在講的是中華民國的前途是台澎金馬2300萬人未來的幸福所以這個上面的主結構是這個樣子因為這個國家如果不進步這個國家如果不好我講最難聽的"},{"start":6524.191,"end":6542.058,"text":"中國時報好自由時報好聯合報好有什麼意義沒有意義我想這個是我們先要確認今天講這件事情是為了中華民國的民主發展的健全我們在做這個努力這個不是我們單一產業的利益"},{"start":6543.218,"end":6568.826,"text":"那一個優質的媒體要怎麼運作就很簡單他要有一個合理的我們講合理的收入合理啦因為我也不能說我今天投下一顆種子明天變成一個森林這叫做不合理這叫暴力這是過去可能在某種特定時代下的一個產物新聞媒體的要求很簡單訴求很簡單我種一顆種子下去"},{"start":6573.988,"end":6600.555,"text":"我不會要求說他長兩棵樹給我我只講一棵種子長一棵樹這就是一個合理的合理的一個收入有了合理的收入我們對新聞的從業人員才能夠改善他的生活跟工作條件剛才前面幾位學者因為也有在媒體工作的經驗他們都已經說了這個現在是薪水倒退路"},{"start":6601.815,"end":6625.262,"text":"各式各樣的勞動條件確實以我來看勞動條件確實是確實是在降低這是事實那這個降低的原因有很多有很多12345678910唯一的就是很簡單手伸到口袋裡面摸不到半毛錢"},{"start":6626.838,"end":6652.118,"text":"這就是現實 大家都不要去講那些吹牛的話說 阿諾 阿諾 阿諾 那叫做本格規吹牛的話不要再講了今天要講的事情是 你今天剛剛跟我講修法是破布隆法有問題一二三四五那我就問你 那為什麼講這麼久都沒有任何的動作各個部會 為什麼沒有一個動作我們開始講的時候 沒有川普關稅啊"},{"start":6654.81,"end":6677.779,"text":"那你為什麼等到川普關聖你再跟我講有這個貿易不平衡的問題所以我的問題就是我們的答案就是做才是重點啦不做都假說的啦大家都不要吵架啦現在我們的問題就是每一個人都是大思想家每一個人都是演講家每一個人的口才都很好誰做啊沒有半個人做啊"},{"start":6683.069,"end":6697.782,"text":"媒體就是在這樣的方式溫水煮青蛙大家一個一個死掉現在可以看嘛大家可以去看我們最簡單的我們用雜誌來講以前7-11有兩個雜誌架專門放雜誌現在剩下一個雜誌架甚至沒有雜誌架為什麼因為死光光啊"},{"start":6708.564,"end":6732.947,"text":"以前的報紙是放在門口大家買十塊因為很便宜現在報紙在哪裡你知道嗎現在是說老闆我要買報紙他從後面拿一份出來這個就是一個產業的發展政府沒有看到嗎學者專家沒有看到嗎大家都看到了但是大家都事不關己尤其是政府相關的部門"},{"start":6734.721,"end":6738.062,"text":"現在的問題在這個地方所以我們當時在去年的十月份我們台北市報業工會有了一個共同的聲明這個共同聲明有獲得了"},{"start":6754.529,"end":6773.567,"text":"衛星工會還有中華民國電視學會裡面的中視民視跟台視的那個支持大家一起公佈了這個共同聲明這個共同聲明你說有沒有缺點有沒有缺失一定有但是我要跟各位講"},{"start":6775.243,"end":6785.136,"text":"這個都不重要你先做吧你事情不做你跟我講這個說問題有12345678910你什麼東西都沒有你跟我講問題幹嘛我現在在講解決問題的方式這個才是問題"},{"start":6792.064,"end":6813.555,"text":"所以這個事情因為我剛才已經講了媒體的報導是攸關我們這個國家的正常發展大家能想像嗎今天你們受到你們現在不管是政府單位或其他你知道一個新聞受到影響你們可能有人因此丟光你知道那個新聞是幾歲的人寫的嗎20歲的人什麼事情都不知道稀哩呼呼出來"},{"start":6819.254,"end":6847.357,"text":"這個國家為之震動這個是不是一件事是很多很多的這種事情這才是問題為什麼我們的國家這麼重要的事情結果被一些完全沒有工作經驗的甚至於對新聞不了解的人就稀哩呼呼操一操這個國家倒啦這是我們現在的問題媒體為什麼會找這些小朋友來做這件事很簡單嘛就沒辦法嘛 它比較小嘛"},{"start":6848.294,"end":6875.625,"text":"就是這樣子沒有什麼大道理大家都不用去吹牛說因為怎麼樣怎麼樣就是沒錢所以今天的問題是如果媒體再繼續這樣子下去沒有一個優質負責任的報導我們會怎麼辦這才是問題所以我在這邊我還是簡單向大家說明一下我們的聲明的內容我想因為這個是要準確所以我用照念的"},{"start":6877.626,"end":6892.355,"text":"一共同聲明人支持立法保護新聞媒體產業為落實新聞有價與公平競爭原則以強制溢價仲裁制度為主要立法精神二溢價仲裁因"},{"start":6893.556,"end":6916.343,"text":"依法尽快于一定时间内完成三除以价外若主张采基金拨补方式时大型数位平台及政府对基金的捐赠应有强制性且金额必须有明确标准因机构媒体与非机构媒体之编采自播人数及"},{"start":6917.603,"end":6942.599,"text":"营运成本相差悬殊基本基金应以媒体受雇人数为准依比例拨补且基于媒体自治自助原则基金之拨补应由参与我国新闻产业与大型数位平台对话会议之四大媒体工协会"},{"start":6944.2,"end":6959.473,"text":"這個包括台北市的報業工會台北市的雜誌工會中華民國電視學會中華民國衛星工會負責制定發放標準基金會僅為基本事務性運作無審查權與"},{"start":6962.415,"end":6989.107,"text":"補助金額之裁量前義務權組織審查委員會介入基金發放之審議五在大型數位平台不透明的演算及分論機制下世界各國新聞產業正逢前所未有變局因此立法的目的應在於改善整體新聞產業環境以促進共榮共好"},{"start":6991.771,"end":6995.137,"text":"與請國人共同正視這是以上的報告 謝謝各位"},{"start":6996.633,"end":7022.931,"text":"好 謝謝我們黃樹德社長的花言跟各位報告也稍等一下黃國昌委員花言完畢我們就休息十分鐘我們就休息十分鐘黃國昌委員花言完畢休息十分鐘那現在請聯合報系廖建祥經理花言"},{"start":7034.624,"end":7054.275,"text":"主席各位在場的老師還有那個部會的長官還有就是各位先進朋友們大家好我是那個聯合報法務室經理廖建祥那我今天也是代表那個報業工會來這邊跟各位講就是有關於就是三位政黨都有提出有關於強制溢價版本的一些建議"},{"start":7054.995,"end":7068.807,"text":"那在此之前呢 因為我們我 褒業工會跟衛星工會有臨時組了一個修法小組所以這個意見也是 就是兩工會的一個建議那因為我有簡報 可以投下簡報嗎可是這沒有出來"},{"start":7084.404,"end":7108.712,"text":"我們這邊的基本上就只有八個字啦就是新聞有價跟公平對待那新聞有價剛剛前面很多老師或者是現金豆精有講我就不再追溯了那公平對待這件事情其實就是很奇怪就是不管是可能有一些部會首長可能有跟一些數位平台業者有見過面但是我們那個產業學者或者是一些基層的媒體工作者有說"},{"start":7110.293,"end":7135.435,"text":"過去有曾經跟數位平台業者有在談判桌上面或者是私下交換意見的嗎其實基本上應該都會非常少所以數位平台就是一個不見的狀況那有一些輿論講說那你們媒體本來就是有既有的一些盈利的模式那為什麼你要去跟平台要錢那你們是不是因為這樣子就會狮子大開口跟滿天要價我這邊要再次的強調我們只要求一個公平對等的環境"},{"start":7136.175,"end":7154.339,"text":"那當然就是所謂談新聞媒體產業要繼續活下去但是我要更延伸講一個理想性就是說新聞媒體都是有永續經營的必要的那我們希望這部法律或者是乃至於我們剛剛討論的過程都希望是打造一個公平溢價的環境那接下來 再下一張"},{"start":7156.297,"end":7176.124,"text":"那接下來會有七點跟大家報告就是這部法律基本上依序它是有三階段的分別是議價協商跟調節程序跟仲裁程序那這邊的話也要呼籲數位平台業者就是說原則上這個不是媒體直接會排進去發動所謂的強制議價或者是協調或者是仲裁"},{"start":7176.684,"end":7194.515,"text":"如果說今天數位平台業者跟媒體已經私下談好了那本身媒體業者本來就是有這個權利是自己是不是可以要決定發動溢價權那我們這邊的話是建議說最後一關的仲裁程序應該建議要有一位仲裁人士新聞媒體或數位經濟領域的專業人士"},{"start":7197.717,"end":7212.044,"text":"那第二個的話是有關於主管機關因為其實過去的版本那包括就是相關的草案的版本都有不同的立法的不同的主管機關那我們曾經有看到的有所謂的文化部或者是書發部"},{"start":7213.064,"end":7233.481,"text":"那其實我們也可以這邊只是提出說可以歸零思考就是因為參考那個澳洲競爭澳洲的那個強制溢價法它本身是由澳洲競爭消費者保護委員會那它的那個它的機關的性質跟公平會類似那是不是這一部法律本質上面可以由公平交易委員會作為主管機關"},{"start":7235.014,"end":7250.408,"text":"那第三個就是強化要求數位平台人的義務現在就不點名哪一些數位平台業者那以現在國內大型的數位平台業者就我之前上網查的資料其中有一家他在經濟部商業司根本沒有登記"},{"start":7251.209,"end":7274.841,"text":"他只有在國稅局只有一個稅級的資料那甚至有其他大型平台公司在台灣雖然有設立分公司但實際上面他總是回覆我們媒體業者就說這個業務是美國總公司的我的業務是負責其他們可能有其他的數位服務所以基本上這個相關的資訊應該都是要讓他強化避免他沒有那個過敝任何的責任"},{"start":7276.28,"end":7299.27,"text":"那再來就是三個黨團相關的所謂的轉載的方式原則上都沒有明定那各位知道說為什麼我們會長期的數位廣告營收的被瓜分這個市場失靈的現象它的轉載方式可能有很多第一個可能是用超連結它有可能是用標題有可能是生成摘要它實在琳瑯滿目那我們本身在談溢價之前"},{"start":7301.591,"end":7314.218,"text":"這兩年AI又跑出來所以AI的侵害它其實又花樣更多所以我們會認為說明定轉載方式基本上要貫徹新聞有價數位平台必須付費的概念好 下一張"},{"start":7315.239,"end":7339.154,"text":"那再來是有關於資訊揭露那這個非常的重要因為現在的版本只有在仲裁階段他才是希望數位平台業者可以提供相關的資料才可以作為一個協商的基礎但是各位不要忘記了我們還有所謂的前階段就是溢價還有所謂的調解階段那這個資料大部分全部都是掌握在數位平台業者手上我們媒體根本沒有"},{"start":7339.554,"end":7353.724,"text":"包含剛剛前面的先進跟學者講的所謂的演算法等等他們都不告訴我們所以我們會希望說應該在議價跟調解的過程當中他就要提供給主管機關跟新聞媒體相關的議價協商的資料作為可以談判的基礎"},{"start":7354.725,"end":7379.898,"text":"那再來就是有關於仲裁判斷那仲裁判斷的話我們會認為說應該要參考數位平台經營者數位服務的總營收這一個大數字才可以就是坦白講就是我們希望是備而不用它應該是一個歸零思考就是這個總數字作為一個最後仲裁判斷的基礎那期許在雙方在前階段就可以完成溢價協商不要走到仲裁程序"},{"start":7380.598,"end":7395.137,"text":"那剛剛前面也有學者提到說目前現在的法環5萬到50萬其實實在是太少了那我們會建議說應該要參考其他相關的傳播的法律提高不配合本法的義務之行政法環的金額"},{"start":7396.141,"end":7417.719,"text":"那這邊的話另外還有點時間我要跟各位稍微談一下目前AI對於媒體產業的衝擊那原則上第一個我要講的是模型訓練期在這邊我可以跟各位的與會的就是夥伴們報告基本上私下數位平台業者都已經說了大家都太晚"},{"start":7418.419,"end":7438.707,"text":"我現在所有現在大家正在用的就是所謂的AI的模型他該拿的他該學的都已經學完了他現在其實就是一個等同於18歲甚至一個22歲畢業的一個學生的腦袋那實際上面這一個部分我們確實是太晚了那為什麼國外的立法譬如說紐時啊或者是美聯社等等的可以"},{"start":7439.287,"end":7463.81,"text":"提告之後後面再私下和解那其實是在前期跟初期就是大家知道的所謂的CHAP GPT的三以下的版本確實有可能產生所謂的所謂AI幻覺或者是不知道為什麼它跑出來的內容就會跟媒體很像但是這個階段已經過去了那另外的話現在我們現在所用的那個CHAP GPT如果你用"},{"start":7465.194,"end":7491.096,"text":"你如果跟他講說我要找的是比如說今天6月12號的新聞它實際上面它其實是用RAG增生的技術然後透過搜尋網頁跑出來的這個是我們現在更關切的因為它本身也會造成我們媒體的流量的喪失那所以未來的話應該是要著重在這一塊的運用那甚至期待這個剛剛已經也有委員講就期待這部的法律可以把前階段模型訓練期它"},{"start":7492.597,"end":7520.037,"text":"大量的掠奪或是爬梳媒體相關的資料那我們可以去做一個一價協商那以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們聯合報系廖建祥經理的花言現在我們請非常關心也是這個案的起草非常關心的我們黃國昌委員來花言時間五分鐘"},{"start":7528.306,"end":7536.701,"text":"謝謝召委一開始想先利用這個時間跟今天所有與會學者專家還有我們媒體界的先進說聲謝謝"},{"start":7540.104,"end":7568.279,"text":"謝謝你們利用自己這麼寶貴的時間幫這一部重要的法律案今天所提出來的提綱提出了非常多具體的建言這些建言一定在我們接下來審議的過程當中會納入考慮相對的我對於今天的行政部門所提出來的書面報告我只有四個字叫失望透頂"},{"start":7569.841,"end":7579.487,"text":"叫失望透頂請你們自己打開你們今天交來的報告四個提綱只有書面報告裡面全部都在寫空話全部都在寫空話說邀集各地方利害關係的人來討論來研議我講不客氣啦"},{"start":7593.191,"end":7618.319,"text":"我請Chair的GPT針對這四個提綱啊討出來的內容啊比你們主管機關所提出來的書面報告啊都還要具體完成啊我也建議召委啊以後開這種會行政機關啊交這種敷衍了事的報告直接拖回去啊請他們重寫啊開什麼玩笑啊這件事情拖延多久了拖延多久了"},{"start":7622.145,"end":7637.016,"text":"拖到今天報告還在打官腔打太極四個提綱你們之前沒有看到嗎你們回去對一下你們今天加上來的報告有回應這四個提綱具體的提問嗎強制議價的立場是什麼設置基金的立場是什麼各個黨團委員所提出來的版本有哪些不足"},{"start":7650.191,"end":7668.296,"text":"從行政機關的立場認為需要修改需要補強建議的修正條文要不要提出來通通沒有交這種報告啊我不客氣的講啊浪費紙張傷害地球啊一堆垃圾招委人好啊這種報告都收如果是我前一天拿到我退回去要你們重寫啊"},{"start":7681.428,"end":7694.696,"text":"你們對照一下人家沒有領錢來參加公定會的專家學者寫的報告再看看你們行政機關交上來的報告 可以看喔丟人現眼台灣民眾黨黨團的立場非常清楚強制溢價 設立基金 雙軌制我們都支持"},{"start":7708.149,"end":7726.579,"text":"法條的內容有不足有需要修改有需要精進台灣民眾黨黨團敞開心胸我們接受社會各界的指教在接下來具體立法的過程當中到最後二讀三讀表決通過為止"},{"start":7728.767,"end":7751.045,"text":"歡迎大家提供具體的建議給我們這件事情台灣民眾黨黨團說到做到絕對不會虎頭蛇尾更不會像執政黨一樣一開始敲鑼打鼓現在呢就持續研議我不客氣的講我現在只要聽到民進黨政府說要研議啊我聽這兩個字就怕了"},{"start":7752.179,"end":7770.649,"text":"我聽這兩個字就怕了當民進黨政府說要研議我把它轉化成真實的語言就是我沒有要做就是我沒有要做我希望這一次主管機關能夠用行動證明我今天在公聽會講的是錯的我要特別說今天這麼多的學者專家"},{"start":7777.41,"end":7805.562,"text":"這麼多基層的新聞工作者大家站出來大聲疾呼是知道我國新聞媒體的環境非常惡劣非常惡劣惡劣到什麼程度我兩位非常敬重新聞界的前輩我雖然是一個法律學者但是過去因為參加公民運動步入叢林所以跟媒體跟新聞有非常密切的互動關係"},{"start":7807.52,"end":7829.318,"text":"我還在中研院任職的時候就曾經是狗仔24小時高規格追蹤的對象也被高規格的對待過所以我非常了解新聞的專業自主對於一個讓閱聽人有品質的新聞報導這件事情有多重要"},{"start":7830.877,"end":7857.803,"text":"過去這十幾年我看到台灣新聞媒體的發展我只有四個字叫做痛心疾首痛心疾首我為什麼痛心疾首我沒有辦法寫的比我兩位敬重新聞界的前輩林立雲教授跟王維京教授我沒有辦法寫的比他們更好所以請容許我今天在公聽會裡面把他們的聲明唸一次納入立法院公報的紀錄"},{"start":7859.195,"end":7882.191,"text":"台灣新聞頻道市場過度競爭 獲益分散新聞台仰賴業配 置入及政府標案甚至逐步形成台灣正媒共商集團透過政治與媒體影響力除戒土地開發謀利也介入政治甚至政府領域包括人事個案與政策"},{"start":7883.973,"end":7912.952,"text":"台灣新聞頻道正媒集團化與高度政治化讓媒體成為政治部門的輿論宣傳工具不公正的新聞報導及節目也導致台灣新聞頻道的社會信任度長期世界排名倒數為台灣民主的另外一個危機我相信不僅僅是我非常多的閱聽人甚至現在在網路上面關心這場記者會也就是我們接下來"},{"start":7914.173,"end":7935.04,"text":"我們想要我們想要能夠去說服他們來一起支持這個媒體議價法的一般社會大眾心有所感心有所感所以我剛剛聽到有學者專家一開始起手式就非常好誰是媒體非常重要的問題有沒有編輯式相關的規範"},{"start":7943.953,"end":7963.539,"text":"不是只有明文的規範編輯式的規範到底有沒有落實有沒有accountability新聞產製的流程是什麼這都是新聞學我相信是基本的ABC但問題是台灣現在的新聞有嗎有嗎"},{"start":7966.755,"end":7988.006,"text":"在自媒體競爭很激烈的年代剛剛有學者說啊館長那個不能稱為是新聞我跟館長很熟啊他從來也沒有希望他自己那個叫做新聞他很謙虛啦很客氣他基本上就是講他想講的話做一個評論員嘛到我離開立法院以後我2020年離開立法院以後"},{"start":7991.067,"end":8009.927,"text":"我成立一個協會我也在做自媒體我做自媒體在做什麼在揭發社會的弊案從綠能光電貪腐的案子到科學成物流的案子我自己花了很多時間、精力去把這些弊案"},{"start":8011.57,"end":8034.335,"text":"做成YT的影像因為我是為了公益而做的所以其他媒體引用其他媒體直接用我那個調查報導的內容因為我本來就沒有要獲益我只覺得榮譽但我知道一個深度的調查報導到底要投入多少時間多少精力我們在討論有關於媒體溢價的時候"},{"start":8037.271,"end":8062.45,"text":"此時同時借這個機會好好反省台灣目前正媒集團的亂象甚至媒體成為政治的打手跟工具以及我們新聞產製品質第一線的同仁非常的辛苦我們大家都可以理解但是在這些產製有多少是來自高層的指令啊"},{"start":8063.442,"end":8086.061,"text":"大老闆吃香喝辣開發土地牟利跟政治人物光籌交錯基層的新聞工作者累到爆肝還要接受上面的壓力跟指示請問這樣子的新聞這叫假新聞我很好奇說我們三體預數11億的預算這個新聞是怎麼出來的"},{"start":8089.329,"end":8097.616,"text":"這個新聞是怎麼出來這有經過我們的編輯式規範產生出來的新聞嗎做了這個假新聞到今天都還沒有道歉甚至什麼濫用媒體的公器我已經搞不清楚這是新聞主播還是個人加上媒體老闆的政治宣傳工具"},{"start":8116.129,"end":8138.365,"text":"肆意的抹黃 毫無事實根據一樣啊 到今天有道歉嗎到今天有道歉嗎說柯文哲在LINE 在微信有把妹的對話 非常露骨我很好奇 這樣的新聞要一起分論嗎要視聽大眾父前嗎我不知道"},{"start":8145.046,"end":8149.405,"text":"我們作為民意代表 正確的事情我們一定堅持到底"},{"start":8150.473,"end":8177.328,"text":"與此同時我希望台灣的新聞真正走向專業獨立自主就像每一個新聞人的靈魂一樣我要報導真實我要發掘弊案我要扮演第四權的角色我要作為掌權者最佳的防腐劑我相信這是絕大多數台灣人民共同支持的事情在邁向這個目標"},{"start":8179.943,"end":8200.178,"text":"媒體新聞報導有價付費讓我們基層的新聞工作者能夠得到更好的待遇這樣子的方向台灣民眾黨黨團不管遭遇到什麼樣的客觀環境遭遇到什麼樣子的對待我們一樣會堅持理念支持到底謝謝大家"},{"start":8202.682,"end":8217.327,"text":"謝謝我們黃國昌總召在這裡特別提醒我們主管機關總召所講的這些都是事實不要平常我對大家客氣是一個尊重"},{"start":8218.007,"end":8240.768,"text":"但是在審查預算我已經講得很清楚你們逃避不了我們該怎麼做就是怎麼做但是我還是要拜託我們主管機關一定要很重視這件事那我也希望今天各位協責專家我們總召已經講得很清楚總召非常堅持"},{"start":8242.209,"end":8249.553,"text":"這個法案要繼續推下去所以我們現在耽擱大家時間我們就休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8857.625,"end":8864.568,"text":"好各位協助專家跟我們所有官員請大家請就座好我們繼續開會現在請我們自由報系我們黃秋賢專員來報告"},{"start":8895.185,"end":8914.839,"text":"各位主席長官教授們好我是自由時報法務專員黃秋璇自由時報聯合報跟中國時報都屬於台北市報業工會所以我們的想法就如中國時報黃樹的社長所述建議部分也猶如剛剛聯合報料件想法務經理的部分"},{"start":8916.56,"end":8938.568,"text":"我最希望的是雖然我們的建議是主管機關是公平會但因為現在大家都有提到AI的關係所以我們還是希望能會同數位發展部來處理相關AI的資料所以希望能夠改法外可以強化保障新聞媒體還有打造公平對待的環境謝謝大家"},{"start":8945.063,"end":8972.112,"text":"好謝謝我們自由報系的黃秋顯專員那接下來請台灣科技大學專利研究所黃泰蘭教授黃教授呢還在外面嗎給他找一下"},{"start":8979.377,"end":8979.617,"text":"黃泰蘭教授"},{"start":9015.889,"end":9031.746,"text":"各位委員還有各位專業學者抱歉我剛剛去上一下廁所所以就耽誤大家一下時間我現在在台科大任教然後我也是中研院聖城市AI風險委員小組的委員然後我之前有參加"},{"start":9034.008,"end":9061.119,"text":"那個GPAY就是一個全球那個人工智能合作組織的一個報告的那個撰寫那它是一個OECD下的那個組織所以我今天會比較針對就是關於大家可能比較關心的那個深層次AI的部分對這個這個法案的這個法案在這邊的影響就對了然後我早上其實看了那個就是我早上查了一下川普的新聞嘛那我就叫OpenAI幫我找一下今天川普有什麼新聞"},{"start":9062.179,"end":9079.557,"text":"然後呢他就列了那個新聞在那個新聞在我的手機上openAI上面然後他就會列說今天川普做什麼事什麼事情然後他有他的source這樣子然後呢如果我對一個使用者來講我覺得這個好像是一個很好用的那個新聞的那個取得手段嘛然後其實他還會幫你做摘要然後會做那個"},{"start":9080.498,"end":9095.013,"text":"那個來源然後他最後就是所以其實我可以預見到未來就是很多人會使用這個方式去去做這個AI的使用用AI做這個使用然後大家就是我們先從一些法律的角度來講本身就是"},{"start":9095.894,"end":9123.943,"text":"那個從這個OpenAR如果我去使用它的東西然後來闡述這個新聞的摘要它會不會侵害就是說就是大家很辛苦去闡述的這個新聞內容了其實就法律來講它本身它可能還是有爭議的因為它雖然有一個替代的效果但是在著作權上我不知道大家各位知不知道有所謂的合理使用的概念所以它其實某個程度來講它可能是有合理使用的空間的就是即使在這個狀況下大家可能覺得"},{"start":9125.023,"end":9144.656,"text":"不太公平的狀況所以其實某個程度來講他其實可能就權力如果構成合理使用的話其實就是沒有損害賠償問題所以他其實就是等於就是說其實平台本身如果是最後他的這個行為是構成合理使用的話他就是沒有著作權賠償的問題那從這個失權的角度來講好像就不需要去"},{"start":9145.396,"end":9165.65,"text":"害這個新聞業者可能好像沒有這個角度去去做這件事情要求溢價但是其實我們在想就是說其實著作權法它不只是在保護著作權利益它其實本身也是在促進公共利益那為什麼我們新聞就是為什麼我們會這麼在意這個溢價這個產業其實一個原因這個溢價這個政策其實是因為我想是因為新聞媒體它本身"},{"start":9167.151,"end":9191.978,"text":"我們不是在乎說中國時報賺了多少錢自由時報賺了多少錢或者是說什麼賺了多少錢其實我們在乎這個新聞的品質跟價值它對我們的民主社會有很大的影響簡單講就從經濟學角度來講它有很多的外部性正面的外部性當然它也可能產生負面的外部性所以我們希望透過這個方式透過這個議價的方式法案議價的方式去使用這樣子"},{"start":9193.018,"end":9219.393,"text":"我這邊只是提出一些意見就是說我看了那個條文的版本然後我現在有點擔心就是說如果照這個版本通過之後其實搞不好是完全沒有辦法規範到我剛剛講那個OpenAI就是請他摘要那個新聞的規範因為現在的版本這個版本可能是那個時候可能大部分我想應該都是參考以前加拿大或澳洲那跟他們手寫的手寫才沒有生成是AI那種東西所以這個版本裡面他講的都是什麼轉載"},{"start":9220.936,"end":9240.055,"text":"轉載然後如果有利用媒體這個轉載的時候它可能就有一個問題可是其實生成是AI它最後產生出給我的內容那個它不是轉載它是透過它把它的那個東西重置到它的資料庫裡面它生成出來的東西是它自己照那個機器去生成出來的所以依照這個法案大家可能很急切想要通過"},{"start":9241.553,"end":9265.902,"text":"可是一通過之後呢就是可能到最後其實完全那個規範到的是以前會轉載的那種東西但是如果大家利用深層CI那個工具來講可能完全規範不到那這個部分就是其實是我覺得這個法案的內容它是需要再調整跟修整的不然就是這個法案一立出來大家花那麼多心力結果就馬上失去它的意義就是這點是大家需要去思考的"},{"start":9266.562,"end":9294.238,"text":"然後再來就是說另外一點就是在那個法案裡面它其實因為剛剛各位那個先進有講就是說我們是希望這個新聞媒體可以做一些原創的內容的著作嘛都不希望新聞媒體如果本身它也是抄來抄去還給它議價這樣所以其實那個法案裡面有一些就是使用說什麼原創性新聞報導這樣子但是因為原創性新聞報導本身它在這個法案裡面我沒有很仔細看到好像沒有對原創性有定義"},{"start":9295.279,"end":9323.225,"text":"可是如果到時候沒有定義到時候如果是用著作權法原創的定義的話那其實是很低的就其實你只要自己寫就好就是所以那個會有一些問題所以我覺得這邊可能這個定義的這個也要斟酌這樣子然後我這邊還要再補充一下就是說那個可能就是我知道在座大部分都是新聞的業者這樣子所以都會把就是深層次AI感覺就是來會略讀到新聞業者的工作這樣子"},{"start":9323.945,"end":9337.057,"text":"但是我覺得我們在區分這個深層CI的時候應該要分兩個層面來講一種是這個深層CI它可能這個工具或者它可以產出類似新聞內容的摘要跟內容所以它其實這個時候它跟新聞平台是在一個競爭的狀態那這個時候我覺得用議價是很合理的"},{"start":9340.6,"end":9354.53,"text":"但是有時候但是我們知道生成資料它可以做很多的事情所以它在做很多的事情它為什麼可以做很多的事情是因為它拿了大家很多資料去訓練嘛對不對所以大家訓練的時候這個東西它其實不一定它生產自如來內可能不一定是跟新聞業者它產生競爭關係的那這個時候我們如果"},{"start":9357.552,"end":9383.848,"text":"要求說只要生成是平台他只要有用到新聞資料他全部都要去透過這個議價化我覺得就是其實某個方面來講會我覺得會會有個問題在於說我不知道大家知不知道那個那個一兩年前就是那個中研院有一位研究員他發展出了一個AI的系統然後呢結果那個有人就去問說這個中華民國總統是誰嗎那大家可能不知道記得不記得但是他的回答就是習近平"},{"start":9384.668,"end":9400.878,"text":"那為什麼會回答習近平的原因就是因為中國他提供的資料他都是開放授權的所以他去抓那個資料的時候是很容易去抓的所以我在這邊想要講的就是說如果我們在這個溢價的部分我們可能是希望說新聞是有價沒錯但如果真的新聞有價之後最後Google他都去抓環球時報的新聞"},{"start":9402.259,"end":9421.086,"text":"對不對 然後最後產生出來的內容或者他也不是產生那個新聞內容而是你在問他其他的事情因為他的背景來源是要很多可能是不需要請環球時報的內容他可能沒有要他授權所以他就依賴大量依賴這樣子那最後我們的那個現在很多就是我的學生什麼他都很利用CheckGP去問很多很多事情"},{"start":9421.946,"end":9437.701,"text":"那這樣其實會影響到我覺得對這個民主也是很大的影響所以其實我覺得在這個部分我們應該還是要分層次來講就是如果深層次AI它是在跟新聞它產生出的內容是跟新聞業者它有競爭關係的話這個時候是有議價沒有關係但如果是單純訓練的話"},{"start":9441.485,"end":9467.054,"text":"因為其實單純拿新聞來訓練的可能不一定是Google大家想像的平台可能搞不好國內業者也想要做對不對平台自己也想要做研究者也想要做那這些東西如果全部把它跟新聞平台綁在一起那個話就會我覺得會我們現在國大台灣也是要發展AI要發展主權AI所以我覺得這個問題也是需要去再再比較更細緻的去去討論對好那我的發言就到此結束好謝謝大家"},{"start":9468.094,"end":9482.52,"text":"好謝謝我們台科大的黃泰蘭教授現在請也非常關心我們媒體議價的法案的麥義貞委員來發言時間五分鐘謝謝主席各位先進各位親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":9498.271,"end":9499.553,"text":"很感謝各位先進願意把時間撥下來一起來討論我們今天也很開心可以和大家一起參與新聞媒體議價立法的公聽會"},{"start":9512.035,"end":9532.069,"text":"現在我們不管年輕還是任何人每一個人手上都有一支手機有的人還是兩三支手機所以網際網路的普及早已經讓各類的數位科技平台快速崛起"},{"start":9533.03,"end":9543.036,"text":"民眾介紹新聞的管道也因此不在極限 通過典型的傳統媒體更多時候就是通過人口的網"},{"start":9545.356,"end":9552.64,"text":"網路社群平台就是自媒體甚至說在年輕一代的日常你早已經習慣連上班日的都是很少見到老闆都不會打招呼不會請假都是用手機來去說跟你請假這個是很日常的生活習慣所以呢但是我們的數位科技平台呢也引起就是"},{"start":9572.19,"end":9594.287,"text":"用了媒體業產出的新聞內容 卻沒有將演算法及分認的方法的透明化不必繳稅 卻可以依據演算法的扯起廣告的收益短短幾年之間 兩大國外數位的平台的廣告收益已經將"},{"start":9595.888,"end":9611.693,"text":"台灣數位廣告收益的整體的六至八成也隨著科技快速的進步生成AI平台的應用更進一步改變了我們媒體生態這樣的傾向導致新聞媒體產業廣告"},{"start":9618.675,"end":9620.936,"text":"營收大幅的下降也變成就是逼迫媒體為了吸引更多眼球對產業產出的內容的精準度還有妥協惡化媒體的環境不斷的被破壞的媒體第四權的該有的功能"},{"start":9643.109,"end":9650.053,"text":"這樣惡化的循環在國際間早有其他立法可供台灣參考就像說歐洲2021年的通過的新聞媒體和數位科技平台強制性的議價法每年因此多注入了約41億的台幣金"},{"start":9669.725,"end":9680.467,"text":"資金 顯示一家法的立法是有必要 且大幅改善新聞媒體業的目前的究竟"},{"start":9682.571,"end":9697.031,"text":"好另外呢我們台灣民眾黨有提出草案版本參考加拿大立法經驗設立數位新聞發展基金建構更優質的新聞環境通過"},{"start":9700.015,"end":9714.756,"text":"提拨一定金额的方式鼓励更严创更高值的新闻内容媒体第四权是民主社会与参与政治不可缺的一环"},{"start":9716.144,"end":9732.424,"text":"肩負有監督公權力的義務數位平台崛起改變了資訊流向讓民眾快速取得多元資訊的來源但並不能因此"},{"start":9733.465,"end":9736.767,"text":"忽視了傳統媒體的價值與永續發展的重要為了確保新聞有價值並合理分論與公平的競爭維護新聞的公信力和新聞媒體人的勞動權益今天各位專家學者"},{"start":9755.115,"end":9774.614,"text":"集聚一談期望能藉由各界提出寶貴的意見讓這個步伐更完善更周延守護低失權刻不容緩希望通過立法推手打造更公平更合理更健康新聞媒體的生態讓我們"},{"start":9778.718,"end":9783.58,"text":"學習的時候看新聞讓我們像我們新住民在台灣學中文還有學講中文大部分都是看新聞媒體因為我們台灣很重要的是不管任何的新聞或者任何的"},{"start":9800.727,"end":9829.675,"text":"我們的連續劇不管只要在電視顯示出來就有有講有文字的證明這個是我們在台灣外國人學中文的重要的第一步所以希望我們的新聞就是要有就是公平還有就是明確讓我們的人民在看新聞是學到東西也知道我們政府在做什麼這個部分我們也是強烈的希望說合法合理"},{"start":9830.575,"end":9847.46,"text":"有權利公平謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝我們麥義貞委員他來關心這個案那接下來我們請藝師科技法律事務所賴文智首長請發言OK"},{"start":9860.851,"end":9882.331,"text":"主席各位專家學者各位來賓大家好那我想就是感覺上大家方向是往媒體溢價那事實上媒體溢價會遇到蠻多的困難的就像剛剛新聞的從業的就是人員在說其實在台灣就算大的媒體對於"},{"start":9883.972,"end":9909.874,"text":"跨國的媒體跨國的這個平台業者而言其實我們還是很小的更何況這是台灣的內部還有其他各式各樣的媒體那從這個法律我想我從幾個角度跟大家做一下分享第一個就是說媒體議價的法律的基礎是什麼平台的業者或服務的業者"},{"start":9911.192,"end":9931.545,"text":"為什麼要跟你議價為什麼要跟你議價你必須要有一個法律的依據那主要可能來自兩塊要不你就是比較偏著作權的角度要不就是偏不公平競爭的角度那我們的這個議價的基礎應該是在法律裡面做一個說明"},{"start":9932.205,"end":9955.52,"text":"不然的話其實業者他做出的反應可能就會變成是最多我就這樣處罰那這個處罰並不是我們的目的所以我們應該先考慮清楚就是說今天新聞媒體去跟這些不管是網路平台業者或是AI業者去做溢價的時候那你的"},{"start":9956.44,"end":9982.799,"text":"權力的基礎在哪裡那如果今天是基於著作權那應該要講清楚如果是因為產業競爭不公平競爭的考慮那這個也應該要講清楚那當然如果主要是因為產業競爭不公平競爭的話那可能主管機關也許不太適合由速發部來負責而應該是放回去公民會這是第一個"},{"start":9983.499,"end":9989.424,"text":"那第二個這部法律應該要考慮就是說實際制度實施之後可能的狀況"},{"start":9991.429,"end":10017.831,"text":"舉個例子來說好了那其實國外有相應的例子嘛比如說像Google News他就決定要退出歐洲那現在即使是澳洲那他們也會考慮就是說我還要不要繼續來議價還是說乾脆我就停掉澳洲的新聞的這個相關的搜尋或者是這個社群的分享那這個事情是我們沒有辦法"},{"start":10018.331,"end":10038.045,"text":"就是只有從我們一廂情願的角度去思考別人一定會配合那這個事情是要考慮的如果他要退出台灣或者是停止提供特定的服務那這個時候對我們來說影響是什麼我覺得這個是要考慮的"},{"start":10039.306,"end":10066.9,"text":"那另外就是說目前我們的這個立法其實是已經有點舊了現在服務的型態包括剛剛有先進提到AI的狀況其實都跟立法的描述其實是不太一致的如果想要把比較未來的這個狀況放進去可能我們現在的法律是的草案是不太足夠的"},{"start":10067.94,"end":10090.473,"text":"但是我們必須去承認就是說產業環境確實因為網路因為AI的關係受到了改變同樣是廣告的這個形態過往可能廣告是足以支持包括電視媒體包括新聞媒體可是"},{"start":10092.535,"end":10104.791,"text":"現在可能不夠那大家可能覺得說那網路的搜尋或者是社群的媒體掠奪了原先該屬於就是內容或者是新聞"},{"start":10106.345,"end":10130.763,"text":"的這些廣告的收入但其實我們要從另外一個角度來看一個是說其實我們如果沒有網路的業者他根本沒有這一塊的廣告的市場的存在所以其實他並不是完全的掠奪他也創造了新的廣告的市場這個我們也必須要去承認那甚至你看AI出來了之後"},{"start":10131.443,"end":10143.609,"text":"現在比如說像Google做AI的摘要或者是說我們用ChopGPT我們選擇說它可以用搜尋或者是深入的這個研究的這些功能"},{"start":10144.608,"end":10171.309,"text":"好那其實他根本完全就跳過了廣告連什麼連原先的網路的廣告的這個市場都會受到侵蝕也就是說如果我們只看網路廣告這個市場的話沒有去考慮AI的狀況的話那這部立法他最後就會面臨到就是說他能夠收到的錢是越來越少為什麼因為最後網路廣告市場可能也消失了可能也消失了"},{"start":10171.949,"end":10194.618,"text":"好那我們回過頭來我們在談就是因為我自己對租用權比較熟啦我們租用權會談一個東西叫使用者付費剛剛新聞媒體也有提到就是說沒錯新聞是有價的應該要去付費的可是誰來付這個費用我們現在的走向比較會偏向是說我們感覺好像是"},{"start":10196.058,"end":10212.549,"text":"網路的搜尋引擎啊這個社群的媒體好像搶了原先屬於這個新聞媒體該有的廣告的收入我個人沒有這樣想我覺得他們是搭便車沒有錯可是我們也需要他們提供的這個新的服務我必須去強調一個就是說難道"},{"start":10215.171,"end":10240.541,"text":"你作為每一個個別的使用者你沒有因為搜尋服務沒有因為社群媒體服務沒有因為AI服務受益嗎所以你要去想的就是說那誰要去付費其實當然他們是卡住了一個就是Gateway就是說他確實影響力很大可是他一定是說他就是唯一的受益者嗎你就是要求他把"},{"start":10241.061,"end":10264.623,"text":"他獲利吐出來然後這個才是公平嗎我覺得有去想過一件事情就是說真正使用者真正獲益的人也包括全體的國民也就是說像新聞新聞當然我也承認新聞媒體是重要的我們也要給他特別的保護可是是這一部法律就可以解決新聞媒體現在遇到的困境嗎我們想要把"},{"start":10265.023,"end":10289.604,"text":"新聞媒體業者遇到的困境全部放在這部法律裡面其實已經超過這部法律他應該承載的所以我們應該去想清楚就是說那我們的目的是什麼如果其實最後獲益的是全體的使用者那其實應該去考慮一下就是說付費的這個角度應該是可以考慮從別的角度去做思考也就是說我不是跟你Google要錢"},{"start":10291.479,"end":10308.781,"text":"Google可能是負責一個待收或待增的這個角度那我為什麼提這個是因為我過去協助經濟部資格參與局做了一個著作權相關的研究叫做權補償金的制度的研究那研究比較久了是在"},{"start":10310.102,"end":10328.33,"text":"在94年的時候做的但是那個制度也是《作權法》裡面一個非常複雜的制度然後各國的實施的狀況也不一樣我覺得跟現在我們在談的媒體議價很像但是我覺得那樣子的一個制度其實是可以作為我們今天在討論這個議題的參考"},{"start":10330.624,"end":10347.067,"text":"也就是說我個人認為就是如果要收費其實我們可以去講我收費的基礎其實是代徵或代收也就是說呢媒體因為不好意思再給我30秒就好就是說使用者他的"},{"start":10348.732,"end":10369.424,"text":"他其實是為了他使用各式各樣的服務獲益那業者他我們可以說我跟你業者收錢其實是帶向使用者收費好那那這看你業者要怎麼跟使用者收那這樣子比較不會引起所有的貿易障礙的問題那至於收來的錢呢其實我個人不"},{"start":10369.844,"end":10384.674,"text":"不是覺得說溢價是一件好事因為其實個別的溢價其實成本是很高的也許是統一收了一個統一的基金然後國內的業者再去看怎麼去做分配也許是比較好的"},{"start":10385.514,"end":10405.891,"text":"那我想就是那至于AI的问题我认为就是说可能不要去谈训练的问题因为训练的问题其实真的太晚了我们应该反而应该鼓励AI的业者尽可能跟新闻媒体业者做串接提供好的服务大家一起去做分论那也许这样子其实是比较好的方向所以我觉得就是不要把压力都给在"},{"start":10406.98,"end":10429.702,"text":"就是覺得好像網路的業者社群的媒體AI的服務業者都是壞人我們要從他身上把該有的錢挖回來我覺得就是說其實我們也需要這些服務但是怎麼樣讓他們更喜歡用新聞用台灣的新聞其實這個是我們要考慮而不是把他們趕出去所以其實應該是這個機制應該要促成他們跟新聞業者合作謝謝"},{"start":10431.732,"end":10439.107,"text":"好 謝謝我們賴文智首長現在請林肇真教授花言"},{"start":10446.449,"end":10461.454,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝大家 我的發言其實在第十頁開始那請大家可以看第十頁 那我主要是針對我們今天交通委員會提出的四個提綱來"},{"start":10467.068,"end":10480.286,"text":"提出我的一些建議首先回應剛才賴文智所長提到的我想我們今天這個法很重要它的精神確實是在媒體的著作權受到傷害"},{"start":10480.967,"end":10505.685,"text":"另外就是我們這部法律是為了新聞媒體而訂定的並不是為了全體國民我想首先先確立這兩個原則好那我根據這個提綱第一個就是關於主管機關他的權責法制化跟推動的進程我想說一下我的經驗其實我們在2021年底我們就已經去拜會了行政院政務委員那時候是郭耀黃"},{"start":10506.465,"end":10531.182,"text":"他那時候就提到就是在行政院的規劃裡面主責機關是速發部然後在接下來速發部成立之後我們不斷的跟速發部公平交易委員會協商其實他們都還是覺得不清楚主管機關是誰一直到速發部要再重新那個改組的時候還是認為速發部未必是"},{"start":10531.943,"end":10551.288,"text":"他們的這個法律的主管機關然後我們就去拜訪行政院副院長那他提到民進黨內部已經決定速發布式主管機關但是我們在去年的8月再去拜訪黃燕南部長他說交接的時候從來沒有跟他講過這件事"},{"start":10552.308,"end":10570.479,"text":"所以他不認為他是主管機關然後在這個法律上他覺得著作臨接權是最好的做法問題是連歐盟的法國他們在著作臨接權上都面臨平台很大的問題"},{"start":10572.159,"end":10596.841,"text":"所以還要他們的法國的公平教育委員會出來幫他們爭取在逼迫平台付費的這些情況所以在台灣根本我們的著作權並沒有鄰居權的精神所以在這種情況之下 訴法部一再的延旦我們台灣在這部法律的訂定"},{"start":10597.802,"end":10626.877,"text":"所以我自己的建議是我們是不是應該要先確立一個清楚而且願意負責的主管機關好那根據第二題就是強制溢價法他交付仲裁的必要性跟運作的模式因為現在我們最重要的問題是我們大家都有共識我們要支持新聞媒體我們希望媒體更好所以我們最主要的是要把這部法案送到立法院的交通委員會開始進行正式的"},{"start":10627.737,"end":10653.397,"text":"的法定程序這樣平臺才會重視這個議題他這確實已經拖太久了那我們能夠參考的其實是澳洲加拿大紐西蘭因為他們都已經訂定出來而且前兩個國家已經實施拿到錢第一個國家澳洲還面臨三年的換約那我們可以看到這裡面可以歸結到一些經驗第一個"},{"start":10654.522,"end":10675.441,"text":"在這些國家裡面META是完全不願意來付費所以我們可以明白它封鎖了加拿大的立場它在這次換約的時候它也表明它不願意再續約好 那在加拿大我們就發現其實META已經完全退出加拿大的市場"},{"start":10676.782,"end":10696.323,"text":"在紐西蘭這個部分我們就看到其實它已經不談Meta的問題了所以我們要了解我們今天台灣其實我們在這個時候才談立法我們應該清楚的知道我們其實面對的只有一個對象這個平台對象就叫做Google"},{"start":10696.903,"end":10715.34,"text":"所以Google他其實在澳洲他付的是一億澳幣就是四十億台幣那那個時候三年五年換月在現在他因為Meta的情形他覺得他付太多了所以他要降低到希望可以減少四成"},{"start":10716.221,"end":10733.678,"text":"那在加拿大呢 它其實是付了22億多的台幣一年我剛講的都是一年那這個情況 其實加拿大都已經拿到錢了而且Google也講他們會繼續付"},{"start":10735.699,"end":10762.47,"text":"紐西蘭的情形是他們訂定了法律但是Google告訴他我們不同意這樣做如果你堅持這樣做那我們現在在你們紐西蘭的所有的搜尋Google News Google Discovery我們全部退出這樣的恐嚇威脅其實在澳洲、加拿大全部出現過但最後Google這家公司還是願意坐下來談"},{"start":10763.63,"end":10783.155,"text":"所以我們了解Google跟新聞媒體它其實是一個關係最密切所以它不但是一個競爭的關係廣告競爭的關係它更是一個夥伴的關係所以請大家集中火力我們其實就是要跟Google非常有誠意的坐下來談"},{"start":10784.4,"end":10800.456,"text":"那在這個澳洲跟加拿大已經成功立法的過程中其實我們發現在加拿大的立法裡面甚至在澳洲的立法裡面其實都已經把媒體新聞記者的待遇"},{"start":10801.317,"end":10821.975,"text":"改善新聞環境放進去了所以我看到在澳洲的資料裡面澳洲的公共電視因此增加了60個工作機會我們也看到新聞記者的待遇有提升但是在澳洲的規範裡面其實他們跟Google在簽約的時候是說明這些合約內容是不能外寫的"},{"start":10822.595,"end":10850.697,"text":"所以他們其實沒有辦法讓我們知道更清楚的內容但是在加拿大他們對媒體有清楚的界定其實在這裡他們就是說明整個賠償補償的金額其實根據真正在做新聞工作所以廣告業務部門是不可能算進來而且這些內容必須符合公共利益所以它其實跟我們基金現在所憂慮的一些情形是非常接近的"},{"start":10851.497,"end":10867.778,"text":"同時他也提到什麼樣的媒體才是我們需要幫助的也就是真正在報導時事隨時關心這個社會上世界上發生的事情真正的傳統的新聞媒體的定義之下的才是我們的媒體"},{"start":10871.107,"end":10885.528,"text":"最後一個AI我想談的是其實我自己現在的領域已經完全轉到AI因為這不是我願意轉是這個整個世界科技的發展實在是太快速了在這個時候我看到其實"},{"start":10887.544,"end":10907.393,"text":"現在有加拿大的媒體美國的紐約時報等等媒體是對OpenAI跟Microsoft提出告訴並沒有接受和解提出告訴除了這些新聞媒體之外還包括其他的作者 音樂家 藝術家因為他們的文字 聲音 影像全部被AI"},{"start":10908.635,"end":10933.764,"text":"全部被AI公司拿去做生成那我們台灣媒體有兩種一種是作為大型媒體的模型生成這個我們的媒體還是鎖住的但是如果做即時新聞的生成我們的媒體是開放的因為這牽涉到他們的SEO還有很多的練習所以我最後10秒鐘我要說的是其實在國外"},{"start":10934.344,"end":10956.458,"text":"因為他牽涉到的這些關於OpenAI或者是其他的AI公司他的著作權影響的不只新聞媒體還包括藝術家、音樂家、作家所以媒體是不同而且這些平台的公司包括OpenAI、Microsoft跟我們剛才所談的Google並沒有完全"},{"start":10957.358,"end":10973.208,"text":"重疊所以我會建議我們在這個法案其實排除AI因為現在連西方澳洲加拿大都不把AI列入原來的法案即使他們在修法過程中好所以希望我們大家請大家就是建立最大的共識"},{"start":10973.948,"end":10991.767,"text":"媒體要團結 學者其實一直在背後支持你們但是我們也知道我們提了這個我們也要承擔這些平台可能退出台灣市場的這些風險希望大家一起努力我相信Google會給我們最合理的一個對待方式以上 謝謝"},{"start":10994.523,"end":11007.622,"text":"謝謝我們台灣大學新聞研究所的林肇真教授的精闢花言現在請政治大學王立達教授花言"},{"start":11017.597,"end":11030.818,"text":"在今天這個公聽會之前其實我看了一些相關的資料其實原本有點擔心就是說我覺得這個法案到目前"},{"start":11031.118,"end":11047.248,"text":"是正式進入立法的階段所以我們應該進入條文進入法律制度來談因為這個問題其實很困難其實就法律的角度來講它是一個非常特殊的規範所以有很多細節需要去推敲"},{"start":11049.59,"end":11071.653,"text":"不過今天真正到了這個公定會其實我非常高興首先聽到這個旗開委員告訴大家說其實有很多因為公定會的召開有很多很多新的這個推展那第二個確實在這個召委以及這個之前發言的這個級位委員確實有進入比如說王洪瑞委員確實進入草案的條文去提出了一些要調整的"},{"start":11072.293,"end":11089.947,"text":"目前的各個版本的草案確實有需要調整因為很多的基礎可能是在比較早的狀況而且原本提出的草案其實是一個對於細節的部分還沒有開放經過大家討論的部分所以有些部分其實它確實有在改進細緻化的空間或是隨著時間去調整的空間不過"},{"start":11094.73,"end":11118.425,"text":"就如果進入法律的這個制度裡面實際上有一個比較框架性的問題可能也需要我跟大家稍微做一些說明就是說就法律的角度來講溢價法實際上相對於舊的注入權法模式它是一個模式的轉變然後如果進入AI的話實際上又是另外一個模式它的模式是不一樣首先溢價部分實際上前面有些法律心境有講到說溢價實際上"},{"start":11120.106,"end":11129.782,"text":"它就是因為它不構成著作權法的侵害我們才需要議價法否則的話我們就走既有的著作權法去處理訴訟去處理就可以了"},{"start":11131.547,"end":11149.646,"text":"那所以呢那法律學者實際上常常會傾向於認為說那我們就用舊有的這個著作權法的角度去延伸也就是用歐盟的著作臨階權的制度去處理但是呢這個部分可能必須要比較熟悉北體議價法的議題才會對這個部分可能有一些"},{"start":11150.767,"end":11179.539,"text":"因為這個部分其實有一些外國的一些慘痛的經驗比如說在歐盟立法之前西班牙跟德國就已經有了這個著作臨接權的規定可是西班牙非常的慘烈因為剛剛這個趙正老師有講到說這個平台退出的經驗大部分的平台退出都是嚇阻性的各位請不要害怕這個平台的嚇阻一定會出現當這個法律的過程當中可是這個只是談判的一個策略而已真正退出的是西班牙"},{"start":11180.54,"end":11192.196,"text":"這個Google退出西班牙退出了七年半之久一直到了歐盟立法通過然後法國那邊這個內國法也實施之後他們才回去所以呢這個"},{"start":11193.496,"end":11221.502,"text":"你在法律上面雖然法律人都希望說在法律上面確立一個權力基礎但是你確立一個權力基礎有可能反而把這個事情給搞砸了這是這個規範非常特殊的部分那另外各位還有講到說這個法環不痛不癢另外一個例子在歐盟歐盟這個指令訂定之後那各國內國的立法也一定不一樣採取重罰模式的是捷克"},{"start":11222.874,"end":11241.081,"text":"捷克重罰下去之後呢這個法律還沒有生效呢這個Google也馬上宣布說要推出這樣各位不要認為說這個歐盟這個臨界權制度都運作的非常好實際上只有在比較大的國家像德國跟法國運作的蠻好的其他有些國家都有問題所以重罰模式實際上也不可行"},{"start":11241.857,"end":11262.387,"text":"那剛剛有先進還有提到說這個我順帶來談一下就是說這個轉載的定義要不要把Hyperlink連進去放進去那Hyperlink實際上就是我們在網際網路上面已經大家非常接受而且非常認為非常合理一個資訊交換的方式實際上不適合列進去而且這個部分在加拿大的部分是有列進去的"},{"start":11263.047,"end":11290.314,"text":"那各位如果直接去看Google抗議加拿大的這個那個時候是已經通過還沒生效的內容它實際上就是在針對你把Hyperlink這個東西列進去它抨擊你要把一個開放的網路變成一個封閉性的網路所以Hyperlink也不宜那轉載就是轉載其實在這個有些潮汗內容你們已經講得很清楚就是說你要或多或少要有重置一些原本這個媒體報導的部分"},{"start":11291.76,"end":11320.66,"text":"所以這個特徵實際上跟現在的生成式AI有蠻大的區別因為現在的生成式AI它產出的這個結果它實際上不會直接複製到你任何報導裡面的任何片段的語句所以這個部分如果要用溢價來處理的話你的計算的基礎溢價的基礎到底要是什麼它會出現一個非常大的問題它是一個全新的問題剛剛有先進講到說這個基本上現在技術是用RAG它基本上是搜尋新的"},{"start":11321.92,"end":11340.816,"text":"這個新聞然後再透過生成資料再產出那一個可能的基礎可能是看這個RAG是收了哪些新聞可是這邊會有一個困難點就是這個搜尋是純粹是內部性的它不像轉載有一個外部的這個你可以查得到的部分可以作為一個集合的基礎所以一個純粹內部的這個"},{"start":11343.344,"end":11358.2,"text":"這個搜尋的成果 搜尋了哪些的報導那你就算要查核的話 其實查核上面會相當的困難那我只是要說 那個其實是一個全新的問題這個在法律協會其實還有很多很多的討論比如說這個相關的程式 比如說在"},{"start":11359.768,"end":11386.579,"text":"它基本上會涉及到說我們要用鑄作權法來處理對於深層市以來到底要用鑄作權法延伸來處理還是要用溢價模式來處理用鑄作權法來處理實際上目前主要的國家出現明顯的分歧在歐盟跟日本已經直接列入Data Mining的這個合理使用裡面去認定它是合法的可是在美國這個今年2月最新出來的Weslow的這個Summary Judgment裡面是認為它不構成合理使用"},{"start":11387.762,"end":11400.58,"text":"所以著作權法本身也是分歧的然後議價本身也有我剛剛講到的這個問題所以比較謹慎的方式還是把它分開來處理我們這一次就處理用轉載方式的 簡短轉載方式的這個媒體議價這樣可能是比較合理的"},{"start":11405.836,"end":11430.163,"text":"那我們去採入一個我們現在還不知道要怎麼樣處理的這個深圳市AI的部分雖然它非常非常的有需要那接下來的話我可能快速的做一些這個版本的比較首先針對這個溢價仲裁這個模式的話實際上現在有一些因為現在草原版本就是部分規定的這個繁減的差距很大有些比較簡單的版本它實際上呢第一個它把調解跟仲裁並列在一起那實際上呢"},{"start":11431.954,"end":11454.67,"text":"這個模式的重點實際上它是透過逐步加壓的方式壓力是越來越大的方式所以階段的這個區分是非常的重要調解跟種檯並列實際上打破了這個模式重要的精髓然後進入強制種檯這個要件其實有的草案是非常不明確要不要雙方合議那如果不需要雙方合議有的定的這個門檻其實非常低非常低實際上它會變成你前面"},{"start":11455.891,"end":11472.471,"text":"資源協商這個階段等於不見了所以這個溢價仲裁模式會變成只有仲裁所以這個部分可能也是在立法過程當中要注意的所以比較溢價部分訂的比較詳細的基本上還是羅廷偉跟王宏輝委員的版本建議可能可以多參考一些部分這個部分"},{"start":11474.571,"end":11495.102,"text":"那在這次工經會之前新提出的一些這個建議的話這個新聞工作者的這個保障其實是我們一直其實都非常歡迎那只是說這個部分可能沒有辦法用非常高強度的方式去規範比如說定硬性的這個配額等等那而且可能也要注意到不要影響到這個溢價的部分"},{"start":11496.824,"end":11520.211,"text":"甚至是AI的部分其實剛剛說明過了我可能再花一分鐘的時間後面快速的去說說明那接下來部分的話是小型媒體的部分這個部分其實前面有先進提到說這個一千萬的這個年收入的這個門檻那這個部分確實可以考慮可以下降我覺得這個部分都沒有問題這個有優劣啦因為你降了之後實際上可以進去的這個媒體就變多那溢價會變得複雜"},{"start":11521.811,"end":11543.1,"text":"複雜的話它其實產出結果的可能性會降低所以它是一個trail off這個部分其實我個人是保持開放的那麼聯合議價機制其實在各個草案裡面都有像公民會申報取代聯合許可的這個部分可是各個版本定的法也很不一致有的版本只有提到說可以共同登記"},{"start":11544.686,"end":11560.937,"text":"那這個部分沒有豁免到重要的共同協商跟達成協議的部分所以有一些版本就涵蓋到後面的這個部分那尤其這個王俄委員的這個版本其實訂的蠻詳細的他並不是說直接把你豁免掉他其實有一些排除條款"},{"start":11561.317,"end":11577.167,"text":"那我們今天其實很高興知道說公民教育委員會願意接受這樣一個豁免的條款不再堅持要送公民會用聯合協會許可那實際上可以期待公民會更進一步的就這個部分到底有哪些硬性的條件要去做防弊"},{"start":11578.325,"end":11607.171,"text":"避免這個共同溢價延伸到其他不是在這個法律條文涵蓋的範圍裡面這個部分其實確實需要公民會投注他們專業的一些經驗那平台排序跟演算法這個部分總我稍微再補充一點點就是說演算法要不要公開其實是在AI制裡面一直被討論的議題可是它基本上有兩個重要的點要考慮第一個平台演算法是平台非常重要的營業秘密"},{"start":11608.451,"end":11629.39,"text":"平台這個到底做得好不好實際上就是看他演算法這個功效好不好可是媒體的演算法絕對不是一成不變的這個Google Search他其實講過非常多次他每年的這個演算法其實要經過很多次大的改變要讓他越來越準讓他預測力越來越強所以這個公開之後會不會對他的這個研發是有影響的"},{"start":11635.434,"end":11659.166,"text":"這個部分是必須要考慮而且公開之後這個演算法就可以被操弄操弄之後就變得不準了其實我們在AI法學上面討論其實都會討論到這些部分所以可能要謹慎一般目前肯定可以公開的是重要考量的參數甚至連參數的權重能不能夠公開這個可能也要斟酌"},{"start":11660.796,"end":11688.512,"text":"那其他的像這個流量貢獻度這個基礎溢價的這個資訊要揭露這個當然是非常重要也都很支持然後這個演算法變動的時候要預告我覺得這個部分其實應該都做得到那至於基金的部分我覺得這個要看立法的這個狀況如果他在立法上面確實會額外滋生一些疑慮的話可能就可以暫緩到第二個階段我們先把這個溢價總裁制度立法成功可能比較重要好那以上是一些"},{"start":11689.745,"end":11715.422,"text":"簡單的一些這個分享給各位希望對這個整個立法進程的有一些幫助謝謝好謝謝我們王立達教授的精闢跟有些作法提供給我們做參考謝謝接下來我們請也是台灣大學新聞研究所林立雲教授發言現在請林教授"},{"start":11724.503,"end":11724.524,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11726.376,"end":11754.067,"text":"謝謝 那非常感謝那謝謝我們委員然後媒體朋友還有我們特別是我們的學者專家我今天真的學習很多本來只是在看文件看法律的資料或者是議案的資料但是聽到第一線的新聞工作者還有經營者然後我們學者然後的一些發言那個危機感更深刻深刻到我直接從結論開始講"},{"start":11756.067,"end":11766.492,"text":"然後也是借用剛剛王立達老師的結論就是我剛剛集中力量能夠快速通過這樣我也是覺得這樣就是說我們現在最重要的"},{"start":11768.154,"end":11790.666,"text":"現在最重要的剛剛大家已經講得都非常清楚其實新聞業的問題不只是新聞業而已是整個台灣民主政治的發展這是攸關台灣民主政治發展的問題而且那個危機不是只是現在其實已經很久而且很深"},{"start":11792.093,"end":11817.711,"text":"那所以其實現在在立法已經太慢了但是總比沒有好所以最重要最重要的就是快速通過快速立法 儘速立法要排除一些的爭議然後我們希望能夠有就共識的部分先求立法確認新聞有價不只是價值不只是價格更重要的是跟民主政治的價值"},{"start":11819.585,"end":11836.955,"text":"要確認這樣的原則那麼之後我們在整體在長期的在好好的研習相關的做法那再來我要最重要要講的是說就是說今天新聞業發生這麼重要的危機其實最重要的是政府必須要有"},{"start":11838.382,"end":11853.702,"text":"新聞經濟2.0的思維也就是傳統的廣告模式已經出現危機那整個真的是就是傳統媒體的廣告那個思維已經是崩解式的那所以在這樣的時刻裡面我們應該要有新聞經濟2.0的思維"},{"start":11855.845,"end":11881.605,"text":"但是剛剛趙真老師講 問了很多的部會 很多的部會都不是我的事那怎麼辦 到底是誰的事 這個國家沒人管嗎其實應該是行政院的事行政院應該有一個整體 我們國家在這樣的時刻裡面那新聞2.0 他的做法應該怎麼樣那其實其他的國家都有很多的做法 其他的國家的做法是多軌多軌 很多的做法 多管齊下"},{"start":11882.884,"end":11902.137,"text":"但是多管齊家那放在我們今天對平台的分論的問題上那很多的國家採取的是議價它是一個第一軌第一軌的做法那所以我們要先把那個軌道建立起來用第一軌的做法那同時有基金那再不斷的去思考那如果中間有基金那怎麼做"},{"start":11903.294,"end":11919.61,"text":"那所以有基金的這個第二軌但是第一軌要先鋪起來那第一軌最重要的精神是在於說新聞有價然後要保障記者的勞動權以及確認新聞專業這個是我主要的發言重點那我們就從第一章開始看很簡單的來看過"},{"start":11927.045,"end":11941.011,"text":"那這個前面的先進都講過所以我就很簡單的帶過去就是整體來講最重要的問題我們今天在這裡討論的不只是壟斷的問題最重要的是它長期免費的使用新聞內容的問題"},{"start":11943.308,"end":11970.447,"text":"那這個出現不公平出現造成我們新聞界造成的危機那再來就是我們的收入整個下滑收入整個有多嚴重呢你可以看到我們藍色的部分原來是傳統媒體有這麼多但是整個下滑到現在只剩下兩百多億但是相對來講它則是那個紅線的部分是數位廣告則是整個往上那到了六百多億但整個差多少 差三倍"},{"start":11971.536,"end":11982.185,"text":"差三倍之多那會造成我們剛才很多先進講到的問題這真的都是真實發生中欸就是說包括說業配 自主性行銷"},{"start":11983.735,"end":12006.392,"text":"那這是真實的問題 那影響到新聞專業 影響到勞動權剛剛我們那個記者朋友都講得非常的清楚 那有非常的嚴重啦那再來就是損及我們的民主政治 就整個社會是錯位的很重要的第四權 卻變成政商掛鉤或者是尋租媒體就整個社會是沒有辦法function 沒有辦法那個監督的功能沒有辦法做好"},{"start":12007.213,"end":12024.552,"text":"那所以其他的國家怎麼做 其他的國家早就想這件事了那所以有的學者甚至用什麼呢這個時代是要新政New Deal就是羅斯福總統那個年代就是需要新政是需要一個全新的政策的思維那很多的國家有提出來"},{"start":12025.433,"end":12047.345,"text":"那像澳洲就2019年的時候就已經提出這樣子有這些政策的破壞但是台灣就是都沒有那所以應該從國家的角度政策性的思維整體來講說在廣告從20世紀19世紀以來那個廣告的模式沒有辦法完全sustain新聞業那在這個時代應該怎麼辦應該用什麼樣多軌的政策來讓我們的新聞業能夠永續發展"},{"start":12053.929,"end":12080.605,"text":"那所以應該要多管齊下其實整體應該從這裡來思考那澳洲的模式有它的優點其實最重要的優點為什麼大家都在講澳洲最重要最重要的精神是它確認新聞有價新聞有價值不是免費的新聞有價值那的確也讓很多的媒體有比較多的談判的機會然後也有訴諸商業機制也比較彈性但是它有它的限制"},{"start":12081.685,"end":12107.24,"text":"但是現在再說澳洲整個市場它是高度集中的集中在四個大的集團特別是梅鐸集團那在這次分潤中他拿到了錢但是整個分配梅鐸拿多少呢拿三分之一就是兩億的澳幣梅鐸的集團拿三分之一那其他的媒體就很少那到了他們最重要的一個多元文化的媒體SBS沒有拿到"},{"start":12108.26,"end":12123.861,"text":"沒有拿到錢所以這個造成中小媒體的確是分配有問題了那再來就是沒有透明整個協商沒有透明整個那個deal沒有出來這樣所以這個也是大家猜的啦就是很多的外媒這樣猜大概是多少錢"},{"start":12125.461,"end":12141.707,"text":"那所以在這個情況底下他們澳洲其實都有做一些檢議政策檢議包括他們的整個那個公平交易會或者是國會都有建議說必須要設一些基金來補救那也有做一些也有設立另外設立基金補救"},{"start":12142.728,"end":12169.117,"text":"那加拿大的經驗 加拿大則是在澳洲之後那所以他們其實是有互相學習那他的做法則是一樣都是有這個仲裁制度那之外有成立基金那這個是政府跟澳洲跟那個Google有做一些協商有做一些協商說當他捐出一定的一定的費用 一定的錢啊就是補償一億的加幣之後他可以免除"},{"start":12169.597,"end":12192.384,"text":"那在這個基礎上他們成立的一個基金就是CJC那一個基金然後一個基金的委員會那多元媒體代表那確認他是公平的那最重要的精神最重要的精神是要保障創新然後公平公平讓各個媒體各個類型的媒體都能夠得到分潤他的精神在這裡那所以"},{"start":12193.314,"end":12214.585,"text":"所以在這裡我們建議說第一軌要先建立就是確認第一軌第一軌就是議價那議價必須要有這些精神必須要有那個要強制議價然後仲裁那再來最重要的是要監督政府要監督那最重要的是要分配給一定的比例的金額要分配給新聞工作者以上 謝謝"},{"start":12217.54,"end":12237.753,"text":"好謝謝我們林立雲教授謝謝跟各位報告我們所有敦請到的所有寫者專家第一輪已花園完畢那現在請教各位寫者專家是否"},{"start":12238.573,"end":12261.546,"text":"要第二輪的花園第二輪的花園是三分鐘那如果願意花園的可以到前面來登記那如果沒有的話我們接下來就要請主管機關來做問題的回應那請問各位寫者專家要不要有第二輪的補充有沒有"},{"start":12264.295,"end":12287.632,"text":"沒有了好那我們現在就請現在就請機關代表來發言也做回應以及意見的表達首先我們總共請五個單位那其他的單位就再來有補充的話再來說明我們數位部"},{"start":12288.413,"end":12310.132,"text":"通信委員會文化部公平教育委員會以及國家科學技術委員會以上這五個有關的單位來做說明來做說明跟回應現在首先我們請數位發展部我們胡主任秘書來回應"},{"start":12318.52,"end":12330.049,"text":"主席還有各位委員 各位與會先進 大家好今天非常榮幸可以來熱地熱席這樣子的一個公聽會聆聽各位委員還有立法委員們的對於這個議題的相關意見"},{"start":12332.748,"end":12359.314,"text":"那事實上從行政院交付這個速發部針對有關媒體溢價的一些任務以來事實上我們也一直在了解國際的趨勢或者是各方立法的一些成效或者他們的進度等等那我們部裡面也是堅定支持這個新聞有價這樣的概念那剛才從各位學者專家的發言裡面也知道說這個速度臨階權也好或者強制溢價也好"},{"start":12361.534,"end":12380.304,"text":"其實它都有面臨不同的機會、風險跟挑戰所以我們在考量情勢的變動或者是AI新興科技的應用的發展等等所以為了讓這個整個未來的進度可以更完善所以部長也有在之前的公聽會裡面有提到"},{"start":12381.284,"end":12406.558,"text":"我們希望在年底之前可以有一些對岸提出來所以今天各位委員的發言非常的重要包括新聞的定義媒體的定義或者是基金強制溢價或者是做連接權這邊所衍生的一些課題或者是應該留意的事項甚至是這個主管機關應該是書發部也好或者公平會也好文化部等等"},{"start":12407.598,"end":12432.781,"text":"再加上有一些委員也提到這個學者專家也提到這個到底是國內法國際法他會不會有一些公法上面的課題等等我相信這個都是我們最近在跟大家溝通的一個重點所以我們也希望持續收集各方利害關係人的意見然後真的在年底之前可以把部裡面的對案提出來那以上是簡單的回應 謝謝"},{"start":12436.116,"end":12442.563,"text":"好 現在請NCC陳代主委來做說明跟回應"},{"start":12451.348,"end":12475.395,"text":"主席 在場的張委員還有學者專家 先進的大家午安那這邊我大概幾點簡單的補充回應那第一個就是因為這個是行政院跨部會小組的一個協力工作NCC一定會持續在我們所授予的這個工作範圍內來持續協力"},{"start":12477.316,"end":12502.972,"text":"那以上三點以下三點大概簡單回應剛剛公聽會先進所提到的意見第一個關於這個新聞的登記的一些要的事格認定的部分那這個在去年行政院的會議裡頭已經有界定是由文化部跟NCC來負責就屆時這個法有後續推進的我們一定會繼續來配合辦理這是第一點"},{"start":12505.27,"end":12523.631,"text":"第二點是關於剛剛有先進提到說本國的媒體的規模跟一些大陸型國家可能會有一些差異落差在談判上的一些對等上需要一些"},{"start":12524.832,"end":12539.76,"text":"團結就是力量那這一塊其實我們也遵循這個原則所以在過去這個三輪八場的對話裡頭我們都請包括今天陳理事長在內的衛星工會跟這個電視協會的代表來參與這個未來我們也會持續來依這方式來持續來推進"},{"start":12548.704,"end":12575.14,"text":"第三個是今天公聽會提到很多議題包括雖然是以性溢價為主那有些是比較周邊的議題部分有涉及到NCC的部分那這邊也跟公眾各位來報告我們都是依法行政在相關的我們的作用法無廣法未廣法還有相關其他的政府採購法跟預算法我們都會依法來行政"},{"start":12576.682,"end":12601.124,"text":"還務使我們這個保障我們新聞媒體的一些公正客觀也希望我們新聞媒體能夠在今天法案或在推進上持續能夠獲得這個Win-Win的一些局面以上好 謝謝我們那個陳代主委現在請文化部李政事來做說明跟回應"},{"start":12609.165,"end":12626.937,"text":"主席還有張委員還有我們今天出席的各個專家學者代表還有我們其他各個部會代表當然首先非常感謝張委今天召開了這樣的一個會議過去三年來文化部一直跟著抒發部還有NCC我們其實跟尤其今天在場的幾個"},{"start":12628.037,"end":12651.776,"text":"媒體的代表四大媒體公會的代表我們持續的開了很多的會那也跟這過程裡面也跟學者專家請教了很多所以今天讓我們聽到的媒體的困境或者是在用議價或是基金或是助言人這個其實我們過去有很多的討論那今天比較個人覺得學習很多的是三位法律部分的"},{"start":12653.377,"end":12680.619,"text":"律師或所長或是教授們提醒提醒我們我們在從媒體環境的改善或者是存活下去的這個觀點上我們提出了很多的一些想法可是想法我們真的希望立法下來的事情要確實有效所以進度如何掌控然後今天幾位從法律背景來提醒我們這個法律如果實施了以後很可能"},{"start":12681.909,"end":12703.545,"text":"遇到的障礙是在哪裡那這件事情我們如何去克服我就覺得這個部分文化部也會持續的在跟我們其他行政院的幾個部會以後怎麼樣來盡快加速能夠制定好一個當然也剛剛講事情不能等到全部的都想清楚都做好了再來總是第一軌第一步要先踏出去那這一個部分"},{"start":12704.557,"end":12726.708,"text":"文化部會持續的跟行政院我們這個整個數位平台共融協調小組來持續依照我們的分工然後去建立希望能夠盡快把這個法例能夠建立起來那在整個立法的模式上來講其實今天大家也討論了很多他真的有很多各種層面不同的一個想法那台灣的媒體環境也跟以往的不同"},{"start":12727.168,"end":12748.784,"text":"其實我也一直講新聞有價我們絕對支持這樣只是這個有價到底要由誰來付費那過去台灣的民眾長期以來我們都習慣自己覺得自己用無價甚至是非常低廉的方式以前買一份報紙十塊錢就好啦十五塊錢就好啦一份報紙十塊錢怎麼可能能夠"},{"start":12749.645,"end":12777.804,"text":"真正支印這整個報紙產出印刷更不可能可是我們卻長期習慣就覺得我只要付十塊錢甚至以前無線台的時候我打開電視三節新聞三台三節新聞都會告訴我那些都我不用再另外付費可是今天我們談新聞有價這件事情它必須要從頭到尾去挑戰民眾對於新聞有價對新聞的尊重對新聞的付價只是這個付費要透過一個什麼樣的機制能夠讓它產生"},{"start":12780.366,"end":12809.305,"text":"如果今天以前是直接報紙的廣告現在看到數位的廣告那如果再有轉換呢那我沒有該去追著誰追要這個有價這件事情那我是覺得這整體的議題都值得我們一步一步的往下探討那今天文化部在這邊也是表達很謝謝有這樣子的一個公聽會讓我們聽到更深入的一個探討那我們在立法上如果有任何還有缺失的地方我們也會再來要求精進然後也尊重我們立法"},{"start":12809.705,"end":12822.03,"text":"願對於最後的一個立法版本的一個權責 以上好 謝謝我們文化部的李政事現在請公平教育委員會的胡處長來說明跟回應"},{"start":12832.438,"end":12840.008,"text":"主席以及各位詹委員還有學者專家各位與會的機關代表這邊公民會在這邊簡單做一下回應"},{"start":12846.793,"end":12870.945,"text":"那這個新聞媒體這個議價這個問題涉及很多很多的政策面不管是智慧財產還有整個新聞產業所以說公平會的立場是非常的清楚我們會尊重整個主管相關主管機關的一個職權還有社會的共識我們也會跟相關的主管機關共同努力努力的促成這個法律的早日的一個立法這是第一點的說明第二點"},{"start":12871.905,"end":12887.597,"text":"剛剛很多學者專家也提到有關公民會的事情那我們剛剛也談到我們會尊重整個各部會相關主管機關的一個職權那當然公民會到底今天是不是要立法裡面是要豁免公民會聯合行為一個"},{"start":12888.717,"end":12903.669,"text":"這個整個豁免或者是向公民會做一個聯合行為的申請我們完全尊重最後的一個立法院的一個最後的一個一個最後的一個立法的結果公民會完全會配合公民會做簡單一個回應謝謝好謝謝我們胡處長現在請國家科學及技術委員會我們資通組郭主任來說明"},{"start":12923.656,"end":12947.091,"text":"各位委員各位專家學者大家好感謝各位委員跟專家學者今天的寶貴意見國科會將吸回作為相關政策研擬上的重要依據以上簡單回應自110年以來國科會積極配合行政院的國內產業與數位平台共同發展協調小組透過了跨部會的協調機制做了一些相關的政策研擬那以下簡單說明"},{"start":12948.152,"end":12972.43,"text":"有鉴于新闻媒体除虚面对数位平台的连结与内容引用问题亦因生成式AI迅速发展面临更严重更复杂的内容授权及应用挑战对于未来涉及AI资料数位经济等相关政策与法治的推动国科会将配合行政院跟主管机关共同促进我国数位社会健全发展"},{"start":12973.351,"end":12994.907,"text":"有關於國康會議的相關措施包含國康會將會支持與鼓勵新聞業者主動參與AI模型開發與資料授權機制例如建立開放資料的授權模式推動媒體業者與學員機構共同建構語料庫資源等以平衡AI創新及著作保護權之需求以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":12997.058,"end":13005.162,"text":"好謝謝我們帶郭主任那現在還有請問勞動部有沒有表示意見勞動部沒有有沒有經濟部財政部沒有內政部內政部華務部"},{"start":13022.453,"end":13031.96,"text":"黃埠沒有 施法院施法院有沒有好那現在我們大概好好那個我們張祺凱委員來來來表達"},{"start":13044.81,"end":13070.092,"text":"很謝謝我們今天這麼多專家學者還有媒體界的好朋友今天表達非常珍貴而且更重要的我聽到很多是行動跟解決的方案所以非常的寶貴非常寶貴我剛剛跟國城也進一步來討論今天是行動的一大步我們在這個會期之前我們就要開始想辦法完成三度"},{"start":13071.499,"end":13093.879,"text":"要完成三讀一個是因為該走的程序都走了第二個今天我們傾聽了各界產官學的這個意見這事情又這麼重要我們的新聞產業新聞界真的面臨到非常大的一個危機那全世界比較先進國家新聞有價"},{"start":13096.69,"end":13117.991,"text":"普世的一個價值啊而且那麼多國家都已經做了我覺得我沒有理由在這邊延宕一直在在這邊轉圈圈所以今天是行動的一大步我們會盡快在這個會期推動完成三度那當然今天稍微有點遺憾的是今天的行政部門看起來有點原地踏步啦"},{"start":13118.972,"end":13131.091,"text":"有點嚴厲踏步 比我們上次委員會審的時候沒有往前走你看我們之前已經辦公聽會了 上次連審查會都已經有的所以我明確的要求明確的要求"},{"start":13134.791,"end":13156.296,"text":"現在數位發展部你們本來的承諾是說要等到年底提行政院版嘛對不對回去趕快再加快速度因為朝委很快就要要排了整個新聞界跟台灣的新聞產業然後講也沒媽等大家有看到今天有非常多的專家學者今天提的那個連署嘛厚厚一疊你看那個多少多少那個名單"},{"start":13160.939,"end":13177.479,"text":"台灣一些有志之士現在都站出來了他們提的也是一個非常明確的解決方案就跟今天的專家寫者提的是一樣的那我也特別強調過了第一個民眾黨有版本國民黨有版本民進黨也有版本"},{"start":13178.14,"end":13204.445,"text":"那之前唯一有碰到問題的是因為民進黨有提出來說要成立一個基金那數位發展部的部長黃部長上次來報告的時候他特別有提他說這個剛好已經撞到那個川普的高關稅那麼當場也做了一個解決方案了包括趙珍寧寫的文章很多專家寫者馬上就提出一個解決方案他說本來我們本來這個法案裡面提的一個是設立基金一個就是強制溢價那台灣民眾黨是雙軌並行嘛"},{"start":13206.803,"end":13233.975,"text":"那我們為了要跟時間賽跑啊又既然又有高關稅這個衝突那就先不要成立這個基金嘛我們今天的重點就是我們去去發現問題的時候我們解決問題我們一起往前走所以我們先不碰基金這一塊或許以基金可以變成是第二步以後以後再再來修可是現在急著要馬上通過的是用強制溢價所以我們在這個法令裡面給強制溢價給它法令的這個依據特別是政府要怎麼去幫忙政府要有角色"},{"start":13235.031,"end":13253.883,"text":"那可是授權是大的喔強制議價裡面是很開放的是剛剛在提的它是很大的你個別你也可以去談公會跟團體你可以出面去談你說衛星公會也可以出面去談啊這個記者公會也可以去談啊它是雙軌的它那個授權有強制性可是基本上你都是可以去談的"},{"start":13255.149,"end":13279.966,"text":"我拜託一下 我們今天 然後講時間我們不能再拖了所以今天我明確的要求 社會發展部不要等到年底了回去盡快 不要到時候我們那個已經開始排審的時候各黨都已經有版本了 寫著專家已經提出了解決方案了社會發展部好像像陀螺還在那邊轉不行 一定又挨罵好不好 那個NCC的主委 你上次答應我的那個演算的那個事情 你要進一步趕快跟那個郭柏跟那個"},{"start":13281.267,"end":13298.2,"text":"那個臉書那邊要再跟他們談一下因為事實上我們現在的媒體衣架老將也是現在進行式啦我們有些重要媒體都已經跟他們都有些聯絡那個YouTube上面什麼噴震什麼那些都已經在做了啦只是他們常常那個演算法在那邊變來變去那這個就是NCC的責任嘛 哲瑋你也言諾嘛"},{"start":13299.201,"end":13313.845,"text":"你公開運動 那你就要趕快去把這個事情弄好不要一下子 這個月是一千萬明天變五百萬或變一百沒有這樣的道理就讓他比較公開透明 而且要合理好不好那公平會剛剛有特別提啦公平會是到目前我認為是最積極的"},{"start":13315.606,"end":13335.244,"text":"不只不要變成是一個壟斷新聞 你要怎麼去幫忙這個在條文裡面都已經有解決方案了非常謝謝大家期待我們是行動的開始也非常謝謝這個謝謝這個國懲那我們很快很快我們非常非常的期待在這個會期之前7月底之前可以完成媒體一家法三讀感謝 謝謝"},{"start":13338.026,"end":13353.36,"text":"好今天特別謝謝各位媒體專家還有我們主管機關在這裡我要特別提醒數位部我們不會退讓不會等到你們年底"},{"start":13354.653,"end":13376.815,"text":"我會很迅速的去排但是我也要呼籲所有針對媒體溢價法的等等各提案委員針對議題這裡面重點就是主管機關分立的問題到底主管機關另外溢價的方法"},{"start":13377.81,"end":13407.07,"text":"第二個基金設不設的問題仲裁的制度分論的問題各提案委員有必要修改的儘快修改取得一個多數提案人的共識這樣的話在審查法案的時候會較為明確所以我要特別提醒數位部"},{"start":13408.13,"end":13432.568,"text":"我不會退讓 我不會等你們到年底再去提版本你們要提 儘快提不提 我相信跟提案人取得共識以後還是會強行審查 送大會通過不要弄到最後 口頭要記支持這個議價法"},{"start":13434.309,"end":13458.583,"text":"事實上都言封不動至於法令地位的問題應該還有寫者專家法律比較見解的看法我們會再再度去請教不要推到法律地位國際或國內的問題這叫做推卸責任"},{"start":13459.577,"end":13484.957,"text":"所以我不希望主管機關都沒有一點積極之態度今天黃國昌召委已經講得很清楚不要再怠慢因為這個法是需要的今天所有寫者專家也認為有必要那既然有必要政府在那邊唱反調幹什麼所以這個我要呼籲主管機關盡快"},{"start":13488.396,"end":13501.176,"text":"要把版本提出來你們的版本有理由我們就尊重沒有的話我們還是會印取得所有提案委員的版本我們取得最大的公約數我們還是會審"},{"start":13504.32,"end":13526.489,"text":"最後我還要再次謝謝今天所有的寫者專家還有我們今天出席的立委當然我很感動台灣民眾黨跟國民黨都有派代表來表示支持的態度我也希望民進黨為了議價法不要去黨"},{"start":13527.549,"end":13544.615,"text":"我認為這是一個公共議題對國家任何的事情沒有什麼損害沒有什麼影響所以我要呼籲三黨都重視媒體溢價華這個話那我再度在提醒我不會等你們"},{"start":13545.675,"end":13570.171,"text":"年底再提出來回去跟黃部長講一下好那再次謝謝我們寫者專家也謝謝我們例行的主管機關謝謝我們宴會的委員也特別來聲援那針對本日公聽會做以下的結論再次感謝各位寫者專家提供精闢的見解"},{"start":13571.931,"end":13592.397,"text":"將作為日後審查本項目法案來參考重要資料今天所有出席人員機關代表的花言以及所有提供的書面資料除了列入記錄刊登立法院公報之外也會另外製成"},{"start":13593.337,"end":13610.134,"text":"公聽會的報告送交本宴前提委員及今天所有出席的貴賓來參來參閱本日會議本日的公聽會我們現在就結事謝謝大家感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":13620.339,"end":13624.824,"text":"不要太冷了"},{"start":13637.978,"end":13639.399,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":13652.865,"end":13652.885,"text":"謝謝觀看"}]}},{"id":"16750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16750","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ed714ad69ae6c7914561c77e525e498818b19dddded0b194fa78900a48f503e675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次公聽會（事由：召開「虛擬資產服務法」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-12T08:30:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-12T11:03:00+08:00","duration":9143,"影片長度":"02:32:23","委員發言時間":"08:30:37 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謝謝"},{"start":1980.908,"end":1989.459,"text":"是召委各位委員以及所有參與支持以及投入我們虛擬資產市場發展的各位先進大家早安"},{"start":1991.109,"end":2015.085,"text":"其實對於虛擬資產的一個服務法這個草案其實它就是一個對未來金融的一個基礎建設就好像其實在鄉鎮當中的一個鋪橋造路我們是一個原則性的大方向的以及這個定義式的一個所謂的框架的一個規範而在其他很多的部分會由執法之中來發展"},{"start":2016.286,"end":2042.86,"text":"而也謝謝趙偉對於這個虛擬資產市場的關心舉辦這一場的公聽會而本會對於這個虛擬資產這個市場的一個健全發展我們參考了一個國際監理的一個趨勢我們分了四個階段的納管也就是說首先由這個洗錢防治法的遵循我們強化業者的自律在這洗錢防治的登記制以及現在第四階段的"},{"start":2044.681,"end":2062.458,"text":"制定专法而其实金融就是信任金融就在于信任所以我们对于一个所谓的虚拟资产一个服务社我们现在就是在一个创造信任创造信任是两个部分的一个法规上的创造一个是业者的一个所谓的自律跟遵循"},{"start":2063.666,"end":2093.286,"text":"为了提升对VASP以及虚拟资产的信任以及加强对交易人的权益保障我们在这个部分我们已经举办了20多场次的沟通说明已经于114年5月24号完成法规预告现在我们也克正依外界意见调整专法的一个草案我们预计在这个月的月底呈报行政院而重点三个部分第一个部分对VASP的管理"},{"start":2094.006,"end":2106.834,"text":"首先,我們制定對VASP許可的規範明定、交換商、交易平台、移轉商、保管商、承銷商、借貸商等六種的VASP模式"},{"start":2108.815,"end":2133.627,"text":"也要求是必須要以股份有限公司並標明虛擬資產的一個字樣以及授權本會呢訂定資本的營業保證金再者呢我們也訂定對VASP的共同管理的規範對於財務要求內部控制集合制度資資訊安全以及營運持續性以及客戶資訊保障等等我們都有明文的一個規定"},{"start":2134.836,"end":2150.249,"text":"並訂定個別VASP的一個差異化的管理因為每一個的VASP其實它的所提供的服務並不一樣所以我們會有一個所謂分級式差異性的管理那另外一個重點是對於一個所謂的穩定幣的一個部分"},{"start":2151.05,"end":2166.162,"text":"其實穩定幣對於貨幣主權以及金融等的穩定其實它有存在有一個潛在的風險但它也是一個商機所以是說在一個轉機跟風險之間我們要取得一個平衡我們延續對國際對於穩定幣發行的一個管理規範"},{"start":2170.151,"end":2191.14,"text":"所以把它定义为表彰与单一或多个法定货币价值连接以维持其价值稳定的虚拟资产这就是稳定币而在我国发行稳定币需要向主管机关申请许可如果是境外发行的稳定币在我国交易也要主管机关的一个同意"},{"start":2191.88,"end":2220.056,"text":"而在境內穩定幣它的發行人要設置維持足額的準備資產以及定期查核本位就與央行這邊對於VASP專法中央行所提的一些建議增訂資產準備定期查核繳存定足額的準備金這個地方我們都納入草案當中另外對於市場交易的部分不公平不公正的一個交易的一個助理"},{"start":2220.655,"end":2247.777,"text":"是我們禁止所謂的操縱行為以及禁止所謂的虛偽隱匿詐欺的相關行為這些都是三年以上十年以下的一個有期徒刑而在這個公聽會本會也會聽取各位委員各位先進的寶貴意見這樣納入未來修正參考的一個建議也敬請各位委員先進和召委指教謝謝各位"},{"start":2249.465,"end":2259.187,"text":"好 謝謝那個陳燕良副主委接著我們請第一位寫者專家那個我們的簡書勇理事長發表意見謝謝這個簡理事長是我們B圈那個有名的那個名偵探柯南謝謝"},{"start":2274.712,"end":2290.538,"text":"謝謝主席的顧慮的介紹然後以及各位長官那很開心能夠來這邊公聽會做一些簡單的分享那誠如這個主席大概也了解事實上剛剛副主委也有報告"},{"start":2291.238,"end":2312.734,"text":"其實我們早在4月1號之前就已經有參加過這個政經管會這邊舉行的公聽會那這個公聽會裡面呢其實我們也報告了這個有幾個四個面向協會本身針對現金禁止現金交易然後還有27條託管錢包然後還有DEFI以及這個最後的這個"},{"start":2314.916,"end":2330.088,"text":"內線交易操縱市場的這個部分我們已經提供過我們意見了所以我們就不再重複贅述這四個面向的意見但就是今天想跟各位特別分享的是這個來自一個國際組織叫做這個GDF Global Digital Finance那這個組織其實蠻特別的他們是這個看到台灣有這個專法的草案"},{"start":2338.155,"end":2351.63,"text":"因此他們很用心的把我們台灣的專法草案翻譯成英文並進行研析以後提供一些蠻具體的建議也希望透過我能夠在公聽會上面去做一些分享"},{"start":2352.671,"end":2375.177,"text":"GDF稍微跟各位做一個介紹GDF它是一個非營業事業組織註冊在英國然後也是多國的金融科技政策顧問並提供建議那包含說它的會員有BMAX、美國的Coinbase然後還有一些Big4、安永等等的這些然後甚至包含一些區塊鏈的這個R3CALL他們都是它的贊助會員這樣子"},{"start":2377.568,"end":2395.909,"text":"好那GDF對於台灣的虛擬資產專法的概覽大概四個面向首先第一個他非常肯認我們專法裡面的用詞其實他覺得已經很接近了FATF的這個定義跟標準那第二個部分呢他是提到說這個比例原則的部分他也希望說"},{"start":2396.59,"end":2411.438,"text":"透過這個產業的成熟跟發展我們可以用比例原則呢來去做這個消費者的相關的保護金融的保護那第三個部分呢是這個特別提到的是全球的東西喔後面會再去做一些分享那最後呢是這個"},{"start":2412.438,"end":2433.417,"text":"他也肯認就是我們雖然參照了蠻多Mika的建議但是台灣應該要走出自己的路這樣的這四個面向來做分享那我一一去做我摘取了兩個重點來做闡述首先第一個部分是這個全球流動性的益處這個部分其實是這樣就是我們台灣其實是一個潛疊市場"},{"start":2435.038,"end":2456.345,"text":"也就是說我們的交易量事實上是不如國外的幾個比較大的司法管轄區像是歐洲、美國、日本、韓國等等他這裡提到一個非常重要的論點就是說如果假設說台灣的流動性是沒有辦法跟全球去做串接的話他可能會發生市場操作跟華價的問題"},{"start":2458.185,"end":2476.62,"text":"其實是有一個例子可以跟各位做分享的可能大家也有聽過就是所謂的泡菜溢價也就是說在當時韓國他們的交易流動性是相對來的比較封閉的所以在他們發生韓國戒嚴事件的時候他一根針插針插到底"},{"start":2477.481,"end":2502.888,"text":"就導致了這個比特幣滑價的一個狀況那這其實就是一個很好的歷史因件就是說當我們看到就是流動性不足的時候它其實是在傷害消費者的權益所以也就是說其實我們還是這個GDF它還是透過這個鼓勵串接全球流動性這件事情呢讓台灣的交易量能夠跟國際的交易量能夠有一個接軌這是第一個論點"},{"start":2505.22,"end":2517.887,"text":"再來第二個論點是全球考量的問題也請容我今天先不就具體的條文去做過度的闡述有關於GDF對於台灣的具體條文我們在附件裡面的25條跟27條其實我都放在後面大家可以再去做參考"},{"start":2525.191,"end":2554.811,"text":"那另外一個部分呢我是想要提到的是有關於MECA的部分其實我們細究我們的專法裡面有非常多的這個MECA的條文的架構來原意這樣子那只是說這個可能會有導致另外一個問題是歐洲的市場規模大於台灣市場15至20倍而且另外歐洲呢它有跨域的就是跨各不同司法管轄地的這樣的一個考量所以因此他們的法規範非常的嚴格這個是可以理解的也可以想像的"},{"start":2555.371,"end":2576.282,"text":"但是還有以及它的這個我們剛剛提到這個其實就是因為源自於它的保守性所以說其實這邊就是不敢說是這個太過的去說我們的專法有什麼樣太大的狀況而是說一個小小的建議跟參考性就是雖然我們的專法還沒有到"},{"start":2579.043,"end":2598.288,"text":"非常的針對細節上的規範我們也了解說會留在後面的執法再去做補充但是就專法的部分其實未來我們也期待金管會能在制定執法的時候能夠多再去考量一些是否要直接援引MECA的這樣的一個法規範"},{"start":2600.089,"end":2609.384,"text":"來作為直接套用在台灣的這個背景上面因為這個還是的確有流動性的問題以及這個Mika的特殊性的問題"},{"start":2610.931,"end":2628.96,"text":"所以我們最後因為時間的關係我就快速的做個總結首先第一個是非常肯定目前就是專法的制定還有專法的制定的架構跟方向確實是先以比較high level跟概括的方式去制定本法然後相關的細節再流到執法的這個部分去做細部的討論這個部分我們協會這邊是非常肯認也非常認同"},{"start":2636.824,"end":2662.491,"text":"也認為金管會在這部分做出非常大的努力非常值得承許那但是呢就是還是回到剛剛提到的部分考量台灣的這個潛移市場加入力量並沒有辦法跟歐美日韓這些大國等量其關那是否未來在執法的制定上面是可能需要有更多的考量跟彈性那直接援以外國的立法力不見得是最佳的實力參考舉個例子來講"},{"start":2663.511,"end":2684.336,"text":"例如像是冷熱錢包的比例或者是之前提過的27條如果是要委託第三方錢包商必定要取得錢包商資格這件事情其實是因為它是直接原以MECA的法規但事實上其實只有MECA是這樣規定的但是其他國家並沒有這樣規定"},{"start":2685.436,"end":2702.432,"text":"那再來第三點呢就是剛剛在呼應GDF的內容就是為了避免台灣就是成為潛疊市場實在是應該要串接鼓勵業者串接全球流動性好那最後一點呢就是這樣良好的彈性的法規及開放的市場"},{"start":2703.132,"end":2724.1,"text":"他才能真正吸引體質良好的國際業者來台落地不管是從錢包的角度或者從交易量的角度等等的那有這樣良好的體質良好的國際業者才能為台灣的業界注入真正的活水讓我們的這個產業更健全更健康那以上是我的分享那後面的附註距離條文再請各位參看謝謝"},{"start":2726.035,"end":2746.949,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝那依序我們請那個那個李麗 法律事務所熊全迪律師謝謝熊律師熊律師對我們很多就是幣圈的那個新的這一些那個新興的一個科技處理的法規非常的熟悉謝謝"},{"start":2750.438,"end":2778.534,"text":"非常謝謝委員還有各位長官還有各位先進首先我們首先我不是柯南就是首先就是看到了金管會推出這個虛擬資產的專法其實我們都表示肯定因為其實我們覺得這個框架是非常符合國際趨勢那今天討論的提綱大概有四大提綱我可能會就討論提綱裡面我自己比較關注的議題跟各位分享我的個人的一些見解"},{"start":2780.095,"end":2795.581,"text":"討論提綱第一題有特別提到最後一句有提到金管會對境外VASP來台落地的看法因為我自己的理解是像這類型的法規首先啦因為其實就傳統其他金融業別比方說銀行證券保險其實通常也不會特別就"},{"start":2796.201,"end":2811.039,"text":"外資投資人做特別的限制那我相信就我們理解看到的法條的內容其實也不會特別說對境外業者有什麼不一樣的區別的限制那比方說今天如果說一個外籍的一些VASP想要來台設立首先他第一個當然要在台灣設立"},{"start":2812.34,"end":2828.092,"text":"比方說子公司為例那它也要經過一些投審會的審查那如果說入資的話入資的另外一套來看待那現在我們對入資是比較保守的態度所以我相信從這個角度來講如果外資來台灣設立子公司然後來未來依照新的專法來申請一些相關執照"},{"start":2828.912,"end":2852.44,"text":"那我相信那個規則會跟台灣子公司來申請不會有什麼差別這是第一點我的想法第二點的話是有提到是不是應該差異化管理我認為是因為各位知道其實在現在現有的VASP業務有五大類然後現在在專法目前加了所謂的第六種類的借貸商那第七個是其他那當然各位可以想像不管是從"},{"start":2853.56,"end":2881.639,"text":"每個業者他做生意的一些規模也好種類也好其實都不太一樣所以理論上用完全歧義的標準做完全歧義的規定其實是比較不特別符合邏輯那我們也相信其實因為現在的那個專法基本上有開放執法訂定細則的空間那我相信也期許希望今晚會裡面或局裡面可以對不同類型的不管是從大小規模類型有做不同的一些差異化管理比方說例如資本額"},{"start":2882.64,"end":2902.923,"text":"那另外第二題剛剛也有提到說是否開放新種業務例如衍生品那我覺得這個東西我也是蠻贊成因為我覺得這個東西完全是站在業者生存或者要發展這個產業的角度來講因為我們知道其實現在業者做的業務其實相對陽春比方說著重在交易業務當然我們也有其他的一些保管業務等等但是其實"},{"start":2903.524,"end":2930.246,"text":"台灣的業者主要是交易平台等等那現在現金交易也進了那我不曉得有沒有辦法連結到剛剛簡理事長的那個講的那個前諜我自己覺得其實應該在適當的時機鼓勵開放更多的業務那剛剛也有提到在專法的第七款事實上有提到一個其他那我相信開玩笑這個鋪了個梗就是說希望未來的在執法相關的執法在未來時機承受都可以開放比方說衍生金融商品或者是類似我們"},{"start":2931.667,"end":2959.383,"text":"在證券領域講的那種投信投顧業這種領域然後因為我自己覺得當然期貨的話我知道個人因為衍生品其實有可能涉及期貨交易法相關解釋所以這個其實相對比較敏感那投信投顧的話可能法規當然也有詮釋的空間但是我自己覺得如果不管是無論如何啦如果說如果是要開放這些東西的話希望在執法寫得比較清楚一點的話業者比較知道什麼路可以遵循那當然不清楚的話會找律師"},{"start":2960.243,"end":2979.458,"text":"可是我自己是認為說如果清楚的話從鼓勵這個業者這個產業發展的話我覺得還是會比較健康那第三點有提到就是未獲牌照在台灣人有營運的業者應該要怎麼管理那個其實我自己個人覺得這個並不是新議題因為在傳統金融 地下金融本來就有說比方說你沒有拿到銀行執照 證券執照 保險執照"},{"start":2980.959,"end":2996.285,"text":"你做就做業務的情形所以我自己覺得這不是一個新的議題本來就有銀行法證券教育法等在管那虛幣現在登記是有兩年最高兩年的行則未來可能也有相應的沒有取得執照的經營的行則那都可以所謂的執行那當然"},{"start":2996.685,"end":3012.819,"text":"境外業者如果說儘管會有一些比較因為比方說監察監管邊場磨叽這個說真的也是老議題那國外有時候所謂的GO block就是從地理位置來block那個當然可以思考但我相信那個執行上通常會有一些要探討的空間"},{"start":3014.261,"end":3028.216,"text":"最後一點談到穩定幣剛剛副主委也有提到這個穩定幣的部分我自己有觀察到比方說之前好像央行長官在去年幾年在一些都要發表的資料好像甚至是昨天還是前天"},{"start":3028.757,"end":3049.287,"text":"有特別提到贊成用這個電子支付類似邏輯的來管理穩定幣我自己也覺得蠻同意因為其實穩定幣到最後其實主要是我們測出因為穩定幣一開始我們在做虛擬貨幣有不同的分類的時候有的是證券型有的是好像是我們講的Utility Token就是比較不是證券型"},{"start":3049.947,"end":3068.197,"text":"有一種東西叫做所謂的支付型那穩定幣想當然了大家想像中會比較丟進我們傳統對於支付型的想像那支付型的話其實通常它比方說如果做的規模越大使用的場景越來越多的話它就越來越有類似那種貨幣的感覺那剛剛副主也提到貨幣主權所以"},{"start":3069.358,"end":3087.649,"text":"越接近這種玉惠貨幣的感覺玉惠有那種電子貨幣的性質其實在台灣現行法規就比較至少現行法規的那個框架是用電子支付來看待那沒有說一定要用電子支付的那個法律來修啦但是我們可能在制定這個在這個專法下制定穩定幣的相關執法的時候或許可以考慮"},{"start":3088.529,"end":3114.942,"text":"參考一下電子支付的相關規定那當然因為央行的主管權則比方說通常在我們不管是參考電子支付或其他金融法規的架構我們在講到比方說涉及跨境啊等等外匯的話那當然那個央行應該是央行同意啦那至於其他的話通常會跟央行會議商跟央行一起來合作來決定要不要就個別的一個業務或者是個別的業者他們申請特別的業務來作為開放的許可那以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3117.148,"end":3121.027,"text":"好,非常謝謝熊律師,接著我們請林思明委員"},{"start":3131.66,"end":3150.099,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們監管會的各位官員還有我們各位專家學者 大家早安我想我們目前虛擬資產的監管是以中華民國虛擬通貨商業同業工會作為主體因此針對監管會這次準備以虛擬資產服務法的"},{"start":3153.342,"end":3177.118,"text":"以政府的角色来明确定定各项的规范而不是由业者来负担此一监管与推展的责任我想本席是深表赞同尤其我们现在虚拟资产的诈骗手法也是层出不穷因此更需要这样一套的专法让整个虚拟资产市场与相关业者可以有法可循稳定发展"},{"start":3177.938,"end":3206.15,"text":"本席今天特就穩定幣提出幾項建議穩定幣主要作為虛擬市場的交易媒介交易的金額佔比超過80%已經逐漸進入實體經濟提供支付相關的服務一旦使用規模擴大應用場域增加並廣泛使用於跨境支付可能影響性有的支付與金融體系的健全運作"},{"start":3207.47,"end":3217.155,"text":"金融管會現在推動的虛擬資產服務法的草案版本擬納管虛擬通貨平台將穩定幣規範納入其中特別關於穩定幣監管制度的設計方向"},{"start":3222.998,"end":3237.483,"text":"在此我們本席提出以下幾點建議與觀察以其能在金融穩定與科技創新之間尋得適當的平衡第一點穩定幣具有支付潛力監管制度應該兩體才一"},{"start":3239.924,"end":3255.86,"text":"曾如中央银行的报告指出与单一法币挂钩的稳定币的确具备成为数位支付媒介的潜力然而也因认知我国目前尚未出现具有系统风险的大规模稳定币"},{"start":3257.322,"end":3279.799,"text":"現階段過度的預防是嚴格監管恐怕反而阻礙產業的萌芽所以本席建議草案研擬的方向可以考慮採漸進式的監理與沙盒機制相結合而非一次性的導入過重的牌照業務項目的限制準備金與申報制度等"},{"start":3280.62,"end":3301.37,"text":"但若涉及洗錢、詐騙、資金盤等不法活動時本席亦認同監管上仍不得豁免第二點本席認為借盡歐盟的MICA也就是歐洲加密資產市場監管法的比例原則監管制度的設計思維能對比美國聯邦與州的層層疊加"},{"start":3307.393,"end":3323.053,"text":"監管的邊界模糊的情況本席建議監管會可以參考歐盟MICA模式因為它的立法精神是強調監管目的要明確監管區隔要清楚還有不干預技術本身"},{"start":3323.894,"end":3340.044,"text":"所以本席建議原本的草案條文可以考慮在執法中納入比例原則的相關範疇避免對初創的業者用途單純的穩定幣或者是小型平台加強大型金融機構等量機關的法規要求"},{"start":3345.447,"end":3370.761,"text":"第三點本席認為多幣式的掛鉤或者是資產型參照的穩定幣可採分級的處理所以本席建議單一法幣穩定幣可採取標準監理而未來若開始逐漸開放時可以考慮多幣掛鉤式或者資產支持者如商品或者ETF為準備資產"},{"start":3372.842,"end":3380.886,"text":"則須提高資本透明度門檻但不應一刀切到底全面禁止或全額抵押應給予靈活籌碼或設計空間"},{"start":3387.093,"end":3401.179,"text":"我想監理的角色因明確分工避免多頭馬車央行與金管會目前雖已有默契協作但在虛擬資產服務法實行後建議形成明確的分工架構金管會負責業者與資格"},{"start":3403.58,"end":3420.674,"text":"業者資格與消費者的保護央行負責資產跨境支付外匯揭露等國稅及預防部進行交易資料的借接打擊洗錢與詐騙本席建議主管機關可以設立跨部會的加密資產監理委員會定期來審議監理執法來協調我們跨境的執行"},{"start":3426.588,"end":3451.429,"text":"最後本席支持穩定並納入虛擬資產服務法但監理政策應善用歐盟MICA的功能分層風險比率與技術中立的法制設計精神作為支持產業穩健逐漸發展的基石也讓我國在WEB3的爛潮中既能安定也能不落人後以上"},{"start":3453.792,"end":3455.353,"text":"謝謝市民委員 接著我們邀請鄭學峰 鄭麗詩"},{"start":3480.783,"end":3507.053,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位行政長官 各位先進 大家好我是牧章關於顧問有限公司的鄭學峰律師那很榮幸今天站在這個地方跟大家分享一些我過去的觀察那我過去呢是在金融機構VASP然後也在外部的律師跟顧問的這個角色 輔導業者去目前的 現在的登記制以及未來的這個登記專法上去去思考怎麼去利用這樣的一個"},{"start":3507.933,"end":3529.444,"text":"法案去在現在的這個環境當中去申請然後以及未來做營業的部分所以我想從這樣的一個觀察角度提出一些建議跟各位就是委員跟行政長官分享首先我必須要肯定的是在這份專法其實我們知道就是虛擬資產這個領域真的是非常非常的就是不容易因為"},{"start":3531.085,"end":3556.847,"text":"這個在全球的那個法案建構上都是一個很關鍵然後但是也是一個非常多不同角度的那個溝通的過程那我相信這份專法其實有在理想跟現實上做一些折衝那我今天的建議會比較是一個往前看的一個角度就是在針對說未來母法這個時候通過或者是未來母法如果要修正的時候呢我們這個行政這個執法的部分呢或者是在業務管理上面"},{"start":3557.408,"end":3559.354,"text":"可以跟有一些觀點跟想法跟大家參考"},{"start":3562.557,"end":3590.508,"text":"那第一個部分會是在就是執法框架的地方因為我們在這個法案上面其實我們可以看得到虛擬資產是以支付跟投資為目的的那這樣的一個目的當中其實我們在支付這邊會看到比較少的一個琢磨那當然這個理由當然我覺得大家都可以知道是因為目前穩定幣的這個專法或者穩定幣的規範其實還不夠明確但是這幾個月來大家非常熱烈的討論所以我們可以預見到當穩定幣"},{"start":3592.309,"end":3604.6,"text":"就是法案比較明確可以發行的時候呢這個支付的一個商業活動會非常的蓬勃的發展其實現在有非常多業者已經在瞄準這個市場正在一個規劃當中所以未來在這個穩定幣的這個領域當中呢"},{"start":3608.143,"end":3631.049,"text":"不管是在執法當中或者是在未來如果要修法的過程當中我們希望是把這個規範能夠更明確然後不管是讓這個授權的目的授權內容跟範圍可以有一些比較清楚的規劃那這些業者在規劃的就是規劃他們業務的過程當中就可以就是比較提早去規劃他們的法尊成本那這樣子也會讓這個產業可以更快速的一個推動"},{"start":3634.028,"end":3661.918,"text":"在第二個部分呢就是第二個部分是商業模式的部分我們認為是應該要兼納一些功能性兼擬的部分那目前的這個業務規範的這個框架呢其實是依照FATF的這個洗錢房制的一個架構那的確這是現階段是一個非常合理務實的一個做法畢竟現在的業者也是依這樣的一個法規架構去做規劃的那但是未來其實這些業務其實都應該會再深化再更細緻那所以我們也建議主管機關是未來在這個"},{"start":3663.639,"end":3675.283,"text":"草案的第六條第一項第七款這邊可以考量是說是不是可以再做一些功能性的區隔那這樣的一個議題其實可以回到現在的交換業務來看其實這個交換業務目前的風險其實涵蓋了傳統證券類似自營商的角色跟經濟上的角色兩種的這個"},{"start":3682.725,"end":3696.31,"text":"業務的模型其實是完全不一樣這不管是在風險 在資本在投資人保護上都有很大的落差那如果用相同的方式去監理其實會有可能會有一些監管套利的一些問題"},{"start":3697.37,"end":3716.97,"text":"那同樣的在移轉業務上面移轉其實它其實是從洗錢房制的角度去觀察的但是在業務的角度上它可能涉及到支付可能涉及到匯兌等等這種很多元的一種業務模型所以在這樣子的規範上可能在未來的執法或者是在就是用六條一項七款的這個"},{"start":3718.531,"end":3729.023,"text":"額外去核定的一些業務範圍呢我們認為是說應該還是要多一點細緻化的區分會比較好那這個是在這個功能性監理的方面提供一些建議"},{"start":3731.063,"end":3759.122,"text":"那第三個呢就是在新業務的推動上我們其實也有觀察到現在目前在產業上有一些業者過去的這個執行的業務呢他比較像是一個投信投顧的一個角色不管是虛擬市場投資的建議甚至有一些類似資金管理基金管理的一個角度那所以我們也覺得說目前現階段的確在從登記制過渡到專法的過程當中以現有的框架是一個"},{"start":3760.863,"end":3779.922,"text":"就是必須要進行的角度但是在未來在開放的過程當中我們也提供兩個下一階段可以開放的一個產業類型第一個是虛擬資產建議的服務另外一個是虛擬資產投資組合管理的服務那這兩個業種呢其實不管在現在台灣的投信投顧法跟歐盟的MECA的這個"},{"start":3781.303,"end":3804.591,"text":"規範當中都有蠻多明確的規範可以做參考當然虛擬資產跟現行的證券交易的確還是有種不同但是我相信有一些監管的精神是可以做參考這個在IOSCO的那個報告裡面他們也提到說其實它是有相同性的這個業務模型的所以我們用相同的監管邏輯來思考我覺得應該是一個可以作為下一步推動的一個方向"},{"start":3805.171,"end":3833.789,"text":"那最後其實也是回應到這次討論的提綱就是跟投資人保庫有關的議題那這個部分其實包括我們認為是說在現階段這樣子的一個五大業務加一個借貸商的一個規劃上面我們認為說其實有一些細部的這個業者之間的利益衝突可能要再多明確化例如說像剛剛提到的那個交換商不管是自營或者是經濟這樣的一個角度其實會有非常強大的利益衝突"},{"start":3834.369,"end":3856.207,"text":"那所以未來是不是可以考慮說在這個業務上要做一個更明確的區隔甚至像現在就是綜合證券商一樣可以有例如說組織上的一個分離那更牽涉到保管的部分保管的業者跟交換的業者在同樣一個組織體之下呢其實這個利益衝突會更明確所以相關的一些"},{"start":3857.007,"end":3872.944,"text":"利益衝突的規範呢可能也是建議說能夠在執法上可以更清楚的去設計那另外有提到就是境外業者跟無照業者這一段那我必須要說其實在境外業者這一段其實當然就是剛剛有聽到副主委這邊有"},{"start":3874.085,"end":3891.62,"text":"有提到說希望能夠有未來的一些規劃但是我這邊也提醒就是說因為提剛有提到是不是可以像日本或像新加坡這樣子直接讓APP下架這種動作那這樣的動作其實因為它其實涉及到非常多的一個國際管轄然後或者是"},{"start":3892.26,"end":3903.123,"text":"中介平台責任的一個議題它其實不是一個很容易處理的我們過去也看到數位中介法裡面其實也針對這個議題有蠻多的產業上的激烈的討論所以我認為說這個部分如果要往這個方向進行的話可能還需要更多的一個交流會比較好"},{"start":3912.246,"end":3933.16,"text":"至於現階段其實我們可以參考IOSCO的一些規範是說它其實有很多國際合作的一個方向可以去執行目前其實有些境外業者跟我們台灣在跟境外的這些政府我們可以有更多的合作的方向我認為現階段以這樣的方向去合作可能會比直接下架會來得好"},{"start":3934.588,"end":3952.151,"text":"那以上就是我這邊的報告那其實希望是說這樣的一個建議就特別是從業者 輔導業者的角度去看說未來的專法在讓他們試用上是能夠有更更容易去發展這樣的一個產業的一個方向以上報告 謝謝大家好 謝謝 謝謝鄭律師鄭律師有非常豐富的這個虛擬資產的這個法治的經驗那依序我們再請那個楊業平 楊教授教授"},{"start":3964.588,"end":3976.414,"text":"我們知道楊教授不只是一個教授,也是一個通訊專家,又是一個技術跟政策之間的解碼"},{"start":3981.422,"end":4005.16,"text":"謝謝賴立委然後謝謝今天有機會能夠來這邊報告我對這個專法的一些想法那首先先就是自我聲明一下因為我基本上是協助過去這一兩年協助金管會做這個虛擬資產服務法專法的研究團隊的代表所以我接下來的內容多少會跟各位報告一下這個專法制定過程當中我們的一些觀察也順便回應一下剛剛已經被提出來的一些疑慮跟顧慮"},{"start":4006.801,"end":4031.124,"text":"那首先先簡單報告一下這個專法其實基本上參考的國家當然歐盟是其中一大塊當然不只限於歐盟那也包括包括日本香港韓國英國甚至包括新加坡美國那確實有一大部分是參考歐盟的這些相關的法令不過我們有很多沒參考的當然沒參考不會特別寫但是其實有蠻多沒有參考歐盟的部分特別是"},{"start":4031.664,"end":4052.111,"text":"考慮到有些歐盟比較過度嚴格的部分例如說歐盟其實有一整套關於虛擬資產發行的規範所有發幣都要受到的規範這部分我們在思考以後覺得不宜操之過急所以就先把這個部分給刪掉所以確實我們都會去採摺相關的這個不同的比較法然後去選擇比較適合台灣的部分這是第一個跟各位報告"},{"start":4052.791,"end":4071.863,"text":"那第二個跟各位報告是關於虛擬資產業者特別是沒有取得相關許可或是現在登記的虛擬資產業者的處理那確實也思考過包括刑事責任包括行政責任等等的處理方式那用行政責任的處理最大的問題是來自於在我們台灣現行的制度底下行政機關其實是沒有足夠的調查權的"},{"start":4073.064,"end":4095.942,"text":"那這種相關的所謂的地下業者如果你真的要做裁罰還是必須要有證據但是行政機關擁有的調查權主要都是針對已經許可的金融業者才可以對他去開啟金融檢查但是如果是一般人沒有拿到金融牌照的業者我們沒有辦法對他做行政調查那當然也就沒有基礎去對他做裁罰那這一點就必須要仰賴就是包括檢調單位才有辦法"},{"start":4097.603,"end":4115.763,"text":"這也是為什麼會制定成刑事責任背後的一個原因那針對剛剛也有提到的就是所謂的APP下架這件事情那過去也曾經討論過其實在洗錢房這打修正的時候就曾經考慮過要不要有一個授權規定讓相關主管機關能夠去做這個所謂的APP下架"},{"start":4116.323,"end":4140.031,"text":"那後來在行政防治法修正的時候最後過程當中拿掉了其中一個顧慮是跟言論自由的保護有關那另一方面其實也是涉及到說國人如果自發性的去使用境外業者的這個服務那如果我們把這個服務下架那其實會其實限制到的是一些自發性的想要去使用境外服務的國人那這些經過綜合的考量以後所以沒有特別寫進這個最後的專法當中"},{"start":4142.793,"end":4170.205,"text":"那再來報告關於這個虛擬資產的本身的定義那其實剛剛幾位先進都已經有提到說我們大概基本上是參考FEDEF的這個整個立法的架構來處理所以包括對於虛擬資產的定義所謂支付投資目的的定義這個其實也經過一番的討論以後最後選擇繼續參考FEDEF的做法那這樣的做法有一個很大的目的其實是並不打算把所有上鏈的資產都當作本法要納管的虛擬資產"},{"start":4171.385,"end":4197.753,"text":"主要的原因是很多的所謂的資產代幣化它其實並不帶有金融性質它純粹的應用比如說把一些憑證上鏈管理比如說像這個學位證書上鏈管理這些其實在現行上都有一些處理但是它其實跟金融沒有那麼大的直接關係那如果我們學習這個歐盟的做法要把這個先納入然後再一一逐一的排除掉的話那那個例外規定會寫得非常的冗長而且也很容易漏掉"},{"start":4198.453,"end":4214.955,"text":"所以後來我們在思考之後選擇用正面定義的方式還是維持先要以有支付投資目的為前提才能夠進一步的去納入我們本法的管理那用這樣的方式來避免一開始其實是限制過多這一點也是一個最後沒有參考MECA的例子"},{"start":4215.896,"end":4229.434,"text":"那針對各種不同的虛擬資產服務業務的處理那確實其實在研究的過程當中已經有注意到國際上頭不只是傳統的五大業務也有其他的包括衍生性商品包括這個投資顧問投資建議等等的服務"},{"start":4232.097,"end":4246.781,"text":"那最後在採折的時候 之所以會各位可能會觀察到就是說相對沒有把衍生性商品這些納入而特別納入的特種業務其實是借貸業務那當時主要的考量其實也是考慮到國內的現實狀況國內的現實狀況來說 國內的不管是業者也好或是私人也好其實是有興趣從事虛擬資產的相關的借貸業務的這個比例蠻高的"},{"start":4256.544,"end":4279.282,"text":"但是這部分其實確實涉及到非常大的一個法律風險最近也有一些司法案件正在進行當中那為了杜絕這樣的一個不能說杜絕應該說有效管理這樣的一個新種業務可能會帶來的法律風險所以我們優先是挑選借貸業務來進行納官那這一點其實主要是跟不同的新興虛擬資產業務涉及到的法律風險有關相對來說像顧問像這個"},{"start":4282.304,"end":4294.67,"text":"投資組合管理在現行的法律底下他面臨的法律風險相對不像借貸業務的風險那麼高所以我們在選擇之後最後選擇是優先去處理這個借貸業務那最後還有一個關於這個穩定幣的討論那穩定幣的討論的部分"},{"start":4300.053,"end":4326.607,"text":"當時其實內部確實也有非常多的討論包括我們到底要納管到什麼樣範圍的穩定幣那這一點我覺得只有一點需要去澄清的就是目前現在所謂納管的穩定幣是毛定單一或多種法定貨幣的穩定幣那至於毛定單一或多種虛擬資產或者說其他資產的穩定幣不在我們這次納管的範圍當中那這一點其實也跟歐盟的MICA非常的不一樣歐盟其實在這部分是全方面的納管"},{"start":4327.327,"end":4345.334,"text":"那這個所謂納不納管背後的意涵可能需要在這裡澄清一下所謂不納管意思就是不管意思就是發行一個錨定比如說特定資產的虛擬資產並不是本法所稱的穩定幣那因此也就不需要受到本法規定的相關穩定幣發行"},{"start":4346.875,"end":4363.575,"text":"交易等等方面的監管這一點可能是要稍微釐清一下我們當時立法的意涵是這樣子的倒不是說要禁止這一類錨定單一或多種資產的穩定幣而是不納管它這一點可能必須要補充說明清楚一下"},{"start":4364.793,"end":4386.06,"text":"那最後針對其實剛剛很多先進都提到的一些建議我自己個人也都非常的認同那非常多可能都是涉及到後續執法的這個進一步的細化的管理那這些我想應該都很值得在未來進一步的去研究最後只補充一個關於草案27條委託保管的這個規定也補充報告一下當時的思考脈絡"},{"start":4387.02,"end":4411.103,"text":"那這個思考脈絡其實是跟台灣現行的金融監理制度有關台灣的現行金融監理基本上是不會允許金融業者把自己的核心業務委外去經營所以比如說是銀行你不能把你的存款業務委外經營但是在這個虛擬資產保管業務的情境底下它比較特別我們了解到它在產業上頭有一定的特性所以這27條寫在那邊的意義其實不是要禁止"},{"start":4411.944,"end":4428.25,"text":"反而是要跟傳統的金融監管做一個區隔那因為這個區隔有它的意義所以要寫在母法裡頭去表示說我們其實是能夠在有條件的情況底下接受這個虛擬資產保管業者把自己核心的保管業務委託外人去進行"},{"start":4429.15,"end":4448.562,"text":"那這一點其實是比起傳統的金融監管來說是一個開放但是這個規定本身的意涵並不是說任何像比如說提到有些技術處理方案等等這並不是這個規範想要處理的對象這個規範想要處理的對象是指把自己核心的保管業務完整的委託出去叫別人去處理的情形"},{"start":4449.242,"end":4476.599,"text":"至於說部分的保管業者為了要進行保管業務例如說必須要購置一些先進的錢包或是要有一些先進的私藥管理技術的技術解決方案這並不是這個規定所要處理的對象這一點主要是跟我國的現行金融監理制度有關以上我大概簡單的報告一下 謝謝謝謝楊教授接著我們請鄭庭璇教授鄭教授他是經濟學專家"},{"start":4497.333,"end":4519.062,"text":"主席好 各位長官副主委還有各位學界先進 業界先進 大家好我是中央大學產經所有鄭田賢那基本上我們在金管會的努力之下我們的虛擬資產已經逐步地從洗錢房制然後到增訂VASP的一個登記然後再到我們的金鋁砂盒會去支持這樣子的一個創新"},{"start":4520.242,"end":4543.643,"text":"的發展在這些方方面面之下我們已經做了非常非常多的努力甚至我們在業者的部分也有成立所謂的虛擬通貨同業工會甚至未來也會跟上國際的腳步去改成虛擬資產的同業工會那這些都是我們目前台灣非常好的一個發展的方向唯獨現在我們還在努力的一塊是我們的虛擬資產服務法"},{"start":4545.064,"end":4559.424,"text":"草案的部分那未來會成為一個專法這是我們非常引頸期盼的老實說我們不管是業界或是學者其實我們從2018年甚至2016年早期我們就一直在努力的朝這個專法的方向去前進"},{"start":4560.305,"end":4588.08,"text":"那在這個部分的話我覺得在虛擬資產的這個草案的第一條我們值得再去仔細的思考一下其實我們在證券交易法裡面的第一條去談論的是我們要發展國民的經濟並且去保障我們的投資人那在證券期貨的交易法裡面的第一條它其實是要講的是健全發展我們的期貨市場還有維護我們的期貨交易秩序那我們知道現在的虛擬資產"},{"start":4589.301,"end":4605.937,"text":"它其實是非常多的樣態化它可能是金融商品它可能是證券它可能是期貨類別的一個太陽它甚至未來可能再去有更多元的一個太陽的產生那這麼多的太陽的產生其實我們可以看一下"},{"start":4606.377,"end":4623.945,"text":"我們的楊教授帶領的研究團隊制定的這樣的一個立法目的相當的完整他要去增進我們的虛擬資產的服務跟交易市場的管理但是呢他也同時要去保護我們的交易人的權益在這個部分呢我們不用投資人的一個"},{"start":4624.705,"end":4652.29,"text":"投資的概念是因為我們想要去明確的區別它跟證券管理的一個高度監理手段的執行方式那所以說在這個部分我們要去再從產業的經濟發展裡面去看它不但是要從它的一個發展的經濟規模也要去看我們管理的手段能不能更加的彈性化跟有可能有更大的發展化我們都知道現在的虛擬資產"},{"start":4654.07,"end":4681.381,"text":"詐騙的手法或者是成為詐騙的工具非常的多但是呢它是工具重複一次它是工具就像一把菜刀它可以拿來做成一個米其林的餐盤得到這樣子米其林的殊榮但是它也同樣可以成為我們的一個殺人的工具所以我在這裡其實我們的學者先進業界等等甚至我們的主管機關我們都在努力"},{"start":4682.882,"end":4695.57,"text":"讓這個虛擬資產能夠成為米其林的未來的一個產品我們在期貨交易法裡面其實還有隱含著一些例如說我們可能在研究團隊刻意去暫時"},{"start":4697.331,"end":4721.074,"text":"迴避了一些內線交易的規範這些都希望未來在執法的一個相關訂定或者是在專法裡面能夠看到他的一些影子還有能不能在仲裁的部分有的時候虛擬資產他或許不是這麼大的金額他在產業經濟裡面也許沒有佔這麼大的一個規模他可能不需要走到訴訟的一個"},{"start":4722.595,"end":4745.532,"text":"程度那他也許可以提付我們的仲介的一個一個材料這可以讓我們再思考看看那接下來這張投影片其實是稍微的整理大家在看到這樣子的草案大致上的分類那我想穩定幣的部分呢是我們稍後會談的也是我們剛才的許多先進還有我們的副主委都有提到的一個"},{"start":4746.232,"end":4772.254,"text":"管理跟制定的辦法那交易人的保護其實是我們一直在著重的但是我在這裡的研究必須要跟大家說明一下其實我們要去思考我國際經濟發展的市場到底是要強調我們的金融創新服務的有更寬廣的發展還是我們要完完全全的把投資人交易人當成一個"},{"start":4772.955,"end":4789.688,"text":"Baby來做一個保護的一個太陽這個可以再去思考一下監理保護這樣子的管理是不是真的要面面俱到到投資人交易人可能沒有辦法去獨自承受所謂的小型風險"},{"start":4792.008,"end":4817.612,"text":"好那在境外的加強境外監理的手段的部分其實前面的先進也有提到我們必須跟國際上的組織去做協助雖然我們在協助的部分我們的地位的部分可能會有一點點隱憂那但是我覺得在一些國際上的合作組織我們應該是可以做得到的無論是FATF或是ISCO等等這些都是我們要持續努力的地方"},{"start":4818.132,"end":4838.477,"text":"好那再來就是分差異化的一個管理剛才一直在提其實虛擬資產產業到我們台灣來做一個發展的過程它其實是大小非常的懸殊的大的業者大者很大小者很小這大小是非常的大的但是如果這套專法的執法"},{"start":4838.917,"end":4866.318,"text":"有機會能夠再就他的產業經濟規模去做一個明確的分級可能是在國外我們看到可能是100萬美金以下這樣子的一個概念的話我們可以再讓管理可以更加的彈性化也讓我們的交易人知道說他面臨到的風險是大是小他該能夠承受的風險是積極型的還是保守型的那在穩定幣的部分我們其實可以看到"},{"start":4866.758,"end":4884.03,"text":"近年甚至這幾個月就已經有陸續的去通過包括在美國的一個Gini法案然後還有香港的穩定幣的條例也通過了那其實在日本、歐盟、新加坡他們都在2023年左右就陸陸續續的將穩定幣當成他的支付"},{"start":4887.612,"end":4902.377,"text":"支付法支付法案相關的去做一個我們的一個扣核做一個規範的管理那我們的專法我們的草案裡面是放在34條那以我們主管機關核准的"},{"start":4903.397,"end":4927.365,"text":"穩定幣來當成我們的一個認可的穩定幣那也非常期待未來的執法呢穩定幣的相關的執法或者是穩定幣相關的專法部分我不太確定這個主管機關未來會朝向專法還是讓它成為執法中的其中一個部分但是穩定幣在現在它在虛擬資產的交易確實是非常重要的一個媒介"},{"start":4927.805,"end":4954.838,"text":"那我們可以看到香港美國新加坡日本歐盟等等他都有確切的一個發行者的限制甚至他在掛鉤幣種的部分除了美國以外他只掛鉤他們自己的美金因為他們必須解決美債的問題這必須實話實說那其他的國家大部分都會去掛鉤我們所認可的一個法幣的部分這可以供我們主管機關可能未來的研究團隊也許可以再多做參考"},{"start":4955.738,"end":4977.504,"text":"還有儲備的要求是我們最重要的絕對不能是虛偽的儲備定期的審視定期的監理還有要求他做一個透明化的一個揭露也許這個揭露可以讓我們的交易人投資人有更能夠參與到你的錢到底是誰在幫你保管好那因此這樣子的一個牌照制度也好註冊制度也好都是我們應該要盡快去"},{"start":4981.766,"end":4997.294,"text":"盡快去結合的那其實最後補充一下我們在整套專法裡面走的都是中心化的一個管理跟監理其實我們要再去思考去中心化的一個交易所我們該怎麼樣去管理它"},{"start":4998.454,"end":5011.868,"text":"五月份的時候美國的MINGLE的公司他就是利用去中心化的方式做詐欺然後做一些詐騙的動作也許在專法裡面可以再去明確一下DX的一個相關的監理"},{"start":5013.57,"end":5030.199,"text":"在資通安全的部分我也建議如果有機會能夠結合跨部會像數位部這樣子的資通專業人才能夠做跨域的一個合作我們除了要產業合規還有我們要提升我們這個產業的信任感以及未來的市場整併不要讓大者橫到"},{"start":5031.4,"end":5049.945,"text":"完了之後變成壟斷市場也許主管機關可能會核准或者是要報備等等都是讓我們的這個虛擬資產產業能夠發展得更完整那最後還是希望能夠保障投資者的權益裡面也能夠兼顧彈性的監管的環境以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":5052.391,"end":5073.641,"text":"謝謝鄭教授的提醒去中心化鄭教授我看他一本書他寫說從經濟學看虛擬資產就好像用萬眼鏡在看星星他說不要擔心這個市場泡沫化只是要擔心我們看得懂他的邏輯接著再請我們的黃珊珊委員謝謝"},{"start":5082.012,"end":5108.445,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位學者專家我想今天非常的重要也是謝謝召委今天舉辦這個虛擬資產的公聽會從去年我們在審所謂的洗錢防治法的時候我當時就說我們修了一部很奇怪的法因為洗錢防治法本來是要訂令處理洗錢的行為可是我們把虛擬資產的管理放在洗錢防治法這是一個我認為不倫不類的法案"},{"start":5109.145,"end":5127.217,"text":"但是沒有辦法當時因為來不及只能先把它放在那邊所以包括登記制包括所有對於虛擬資產的相關規範反而都在一部很奇怪的洗錢防治法裡面那今天終於樂見監管會也從善如流的接受立法院的建議另外擬出了專法"},{"start":5128.098,"end":5144.645,"text":"而這個專法我們也是等了很久那重點是我上一個禮拜已經開過一次的公聽會其實我們還是認為說這個專法除了我們自己政府部門應該做的事情之外其實沒有人會比業界更了解這個市場"},{"start":5145.465,"end":5163.661,"text":"所以接下來去的虛擬資產不管是專法接下來的內容跟方向我相信還是都需要公開的多方的討論那以及我們要面對一個未知的世界而這個世界它正在發生不能因為我們不知道或不懂它我們就假裝看不到"},{"start":5164.261,"end":5183.506,"text":"所以接下去在這個月我們也會提出台灣民眾黨的修法版本以金管會的版本為基礎但是我們覺得上次也提出了我們的方向認為說還是有幾個東西現在必須就要納入而不是等到到時候再說首先虛擬資產業者"},{"start":5185.607,"end":5206.651,"text":"儘管會處開放的項目目前為止如果單單只靠現貨交易在營運上面我相信不太可能得到所謂的固定合理的利潤所以才會有這麼多業者停而走險所以我們希望能夠開放它有可能將來也許會有的衍生型金融商品"},{"start":5207.131,"end":5223.012,"text":"因為不是因為你不承認它它就不存在我相信只要有金融教育的價值它就會存在而我們希望能夠在一部專訪裡面先把預想未來一定可能會發生的部分也應該現在就加以納管所以我們認為說"},{"start":5224.654,"end":5240.294,"text":"新產品新幣種的發行銷售會都很快的出現台灣不能再鎖著市場限制項目否則又跟原來一樣我們都不管它所以它就變成自由發揮造成非常多的社會問題第二個部分是"},{"start":5241.485,"end":5266.17,"text":"在金管会版本里面没有的就是针对现在比较普遍尤其是在虚拟资产业非常多的所谓的网红他们没有投心投顾的资格可是他们一样在推展相关的所谓虚拟资产的商品那我们一直把它当商品所以我们就不把它当成金融商品所以一直产生这些所谓法律之外的这些话外之地"},{"start":5266.71,"end":5292.669,"text":"那這些規範我們如果對於銀行對於投信投估有這麼嚴格的要求但是我們對於所謂的新的新興的金融商品它的廣告它的所謂的KOL我們沒有任何的規範這反而是一個很奇怪的事情而且現在的詐騙幾乎都發生在社群媒體或者是網路的平台也就是說太多人是因為相信了某人"},{"start":5293.109,"end":5312.857,"text":"而去投資了一個他所不熟悉的商品而這個商品可能就是虛擬資產所以我們希望說既然虛擬資產要管就認真的管把可能發生的問題都要一併的管另外一個部分是虛擬資產我上次問了金管會一個非常重要的問題今天我們把它管了之後如果它發生問題我們有沒有後續的備案"},{"start":5315.538,"end":5344.723,"text":"今天我們只是很嚴格要求他你要來納管你要來登記但是一旦發生問題就像我們早年非常多的銀行信用合作社突然間倒閉然後消費者求儲物門所以這個所謂存款保險這樣的型態是不是應該在虛擬資產業者裡面要有成立相關類似所謂的投保中心或者是除了納入金保法之外我們希望還能夠將來有要求這些業者大家一起"},{"start":5345.163,"end":5372.174,"text":"能夠符合政府的規範而且也可以達到賠付的責任否則接下去有可能發生非常多的消費者在受到陰害影響的時候並沒有辦法繼續的求償甚至我們現在有發現很多虛幣可能它是損失的虛幣可是將來賠付的時候很難去算它的價值所以目前為止我們也希望說能夠建立一個類似"},{"start":5374.415,"end":5392.163,"text":"虛擬資產的基金來協助業者將來的賠付那最重要的其實還是打炸這個專法進入專法的階段我相信業者的成本會提高但是同樣的金管會我們希望金管會的態度是只要希望能夠納管的人很希望被管的人"},{"start":5392.603,"end":5416.203,"text":"他能够希望落地的人我们都应该有机会让他在台湾落地生根因为这样才能真正保障投资的台湾人在发生事情之后他可以在台湾球场否则照现在的状况我们有绝大多数的民众其实是在国外的平台上去交易虚拟资产然后造成了发生了问题他也在台湾没有办法做处理"},{"start":5416.563,"end":5430.848,"text":"所以既然要納管我們就希望金管會主動跟有意來台營業的業者主動聯絡、溝通而且希望他們都能夠來登記這才是對台灣整體虛擬資產業界一個比較健全的發展謝謝好 謝謝珊珊委員接著我們請林孟祥林教授謝謝"},{"start":5440.851,"end":5448.428,"text":"也謝謝教授 這個真的是我們面上金融的導演有很多事情我們還是都請教林教授 謝謝"},{"start":5454.2,"end":5475.168,"text":"謝謝主席 各位大家先進好以上就虛擬資產的服務法的公聽會提出相關的一個說明大概大綱分成這五個因為我的資料比較多一點點僅供大家做相關的參考以下就幾個重點來跟大家做相關的分享第一個是屬於我們的虛擬資產的一個相關立法的流程"},{"start":5475.808,"end":5498.86,"text":"那其實站在這個地方心情還覺得蠻激動的因為過去這個作為國內第一個虛擬資產教育所自律公約的一個創始人跟撰寫者我們可以看到的是目前現在金管會在過去採納以自律規範作為基礎而開始形成監理共識之後到現在專法的一個就是制定所以這個真的是大家共同的努力而產生出來的一個在新興科技之下的一個相關典範"},{"start":5499.66,"end":5528.9,"text":"這個也會未來作為AI跟後來新科技發展非常重要在金融跟科技在創新跟融合以及在做溝通時很好的一個相關的立法流程那裡面當然還是有蠻多的一些爭議點必須要去作為處理那以日本來說它就是以金融消費者保護跟消費者保護作為基礎的框架作為基礎跟公開介入作為基礎來作為相關在自律規範上跟這個相關法規上面的一個訂定所以這個大概就是彙整了一下我們從過去自律規範開始到至今的一個流程"},{"start":5529.5,"end":5551.352,"text":"那當然在五月跟六月份我們正在進行相關專法跟這個公聽會的進行如果預計我們今天都非常的順利而且能夠抱怨的話那未來大概再配合一些像我們的實驗條例相關的修正跟申請業務相關的修正能夠讓我們在這個業務上面的一個示範跟相關的實驗能夠更加的簡單而且能夠這個減少流程時我想這個會是促進蠻多未來的一個虛擬資產的一個就是增加"},{"start":5554.594,"end":5569.885,"text":"那當然虛擬資產各執法的制定是這次本法的重要特色那因為信心科技是無法直接去作為監管的所以按照像過去日本跟歐盟的一個過去經驗都不足以直接一開始以專法直接定在母法上把它定死"},{"start":5570.345,"end":5592.23,"text":"所以這個部分保留給執法做非常大的彈性把後半部的業務都能夠涵蓋進來去跟業者之間做彈性的規範這個是非常好的一個立法模式所以未來的這個執法的修訂還是需要各位可能我們還要繼續廣義再想辦法能夠依照這個當時的狀況去作為制定那接下來另外一個就是在詐騙跟教育的一個宣導上還是需要去持續的做加強"},{"start":5592.87,"end":5613.21,"text":"那不過我在簡報裡面有跟各位說明其實你就現在的這個年輕人也好或者是從事虛擬資產交易人也好其實經歷過這麼多詐騙的案子其實他們對於自己的自身維護跟安全都有一定程度上面的一個能力所以不太不太一定要以說為了要保護他們為由去採取比較多的一個限制倒是不至於的"},{"start":5613.991,"end":5641.014,"text":"這一點來說是跟我們過去呢因為金融業務相對於是比較就是限縮而且是參與的這個相關的參與者會比較少所以會個人會認為在過去的情況之下那種詐騙可能會影響的範圍會比較大現在是比較不至於啦那當然在後半部的公平貸客原則如果去銜接到未來在金保法的一個制定之上跟納入之上去銜接到公平貸客跟金融機關的一個結合這個也是回應到我們今天主題的第二題跟第三題的部分"},{"start":5641.374,"end":5655.192,"text":"那最後是在真真解決的部分應該要怎麼樣去快速解決我想這也是後面半部該去處理的事情那不過因為虛擬資產的一個交易狀況並不太完全都是我們的就是非專業的投資人的一個相關的業務跟範圍"},{"start":5656.474,"end":5678.8,"text":"所以未來這一塊在我們的評議中心或者是在做爭議分身解決機制時該怎麼樣去作為分流有沒有原則跟特殊我想這過去在之後的就是滋賀立法我們可能要討論的地方好那第二個部分就以下針對於今天的討論提綱做相關的回應第一個是業者准入的問題那當然從房幣到信利的一個監理角度的一個轉變我想這個是應該給金管會做非常大的一個鼓勵跟掌聲"},{"start":5679.58,"end":5693.976,"text":"那在過渡期間應該要怎麼樣積極的去輔導既有的虛擬資產服務商簡稱叫VSP業者該怎麼樣在新設立以及新經營以及在過去已經有的部分怎麼樣能夠轉型或者是符合未來的規範這個是我們必須要去注意到的事情"},{"start":5694.517,"end":5722.891,"text":"第二個在政策規範上呢我們的亞洲資產管理中心以及流財跟影資並重是金管會相關的一個政策所以在虛擬資產的服務商是不是在未來應該要明確納入到我們這邊的作業原則有機會能夠進到我們這個地方來來作為這一個資產管理中心很重要的一個政策推動的一個就是參與者那第三個在落地審查上呢剛剛各位先進都有提到其實不分國內外的相關的這個這個FESPA業者審查標準都相同而且必須要落地這一點在日本的"},{"start":5723.231,"end":5745.777,"text":"相關的穩定幣跟相關的RWA的相關規範上都是一致的他認為不管你的商品是在國外或國內發只要在日本境內販售售到的規範強度全部都是一樣所以這一點是在國內跟國外業者上面來說並沒有相關不同的一個監理模式第二個是虛擬資產教育人的保護那當然在差異化的監理之下該怎麼樣去進行差異化的多層次市場架構"},{"start":5746.577,"end":5771.877,"text":"這個是可以針對於我們的目前核准的六項業務是列舉然後再加上另外一個業務是這一個所謂的概括業務上逐步去放寬去未來去做的事情所以在這個風險相對比較更高的一些相關商品上是未來在概括條款裡面可以開放的所以也去除掉在我們的很多就是比較錯誤的訊息好像認為這是不開放這是不至於的那第三個是金融機構從事FASB業務的部分來說"},{"start":5772.837,"end":5787.006,"text":"這個部分倒是可以先從這個主題式的沙盒以及在做兼營的許可上兩點要去做處理那這個相關的實驗跟相關的一個沙盒機制是可以來確定金融機構有沒有那個能力以及在進行這個FASB業務"},{"start":5788.507,"end":5814.377,"text":"能不能夠有風險控制的一個部分當然我們更期待的是這個金融機構應該要積極地展開你的心胸是跟FAX業者去多做合作才能夠將我們新興的科技能夠納在我們既有的未來以及既有跟未來的相關業務上第二個部分是在經營上我大概就是參考了我們金控法相關的一個制定的部分除了業務的健全性跟資本適足性跟這個資產隔離之外其實重點是市場的競爭"},{"start":5814.977,"end":5843.893,"text":"所以我們也不願意是金融機構開放能夠經營Facebook業務時它反而讓我們的Facebook業者的專營的這個內容呢去被限縮或者是產生出那個市場不競爭的狀態所以這一點就回到了我們第一點業者准入的那個過渡時期應該怎麼去做處理的事那最後是在監理的強化跟基礎的穩固上呢相同業務相同監理跟相同的這個風險應該怎麼要監理的部分那我們在目前的STO因為現在是在證券交易法裡面以及在NFT要依據我們的FedHub的那個"},{"start":5844.813,"end":5858.408,"text":"原則是要個案判定的一個標準上這是未來在執法上可能要共同努力的地方那第二個呢就是監理量能跟我們就是所謂的紛爭解決機制的量能因為這個部分其實沒有人那這個這個這個樵夫那邊無名之炊"},{"start":5860.811,"end":5888.141,"text":"所以基本上面來說如果沒有充足的人跟相關的資源這基本上對於未來的監理上面來說其實也是一個很大的傷害所以這個部分來講希望能夠在未來也能夠把基礎去做相關的穩定那中間的部分我想因為時間上面剩一分鐘我就把它做簡單的跳過我就回到了最後的那一個穩定幣跟相關的一個建議跟各位去做相關的這個回覆那中間的資料請各位參考如果有什麼樣子的建議再請告訴我們"},{"start":5889.301,"end":5907.359,"text":"所以最後的結論就是第一個呢在這個相關的准錄跟示範的部分接下來就是技術的規格因為相關的技術規格涉及到錢包或者是有一個第三方可信的中心來做廉政資料上面的一個彙整這一點來講其實是在現在來講非常重要的事比如說今天這個當事人具有"},{"start":5908.22,"end":5924.508,"text":"部分比例的比特幣那但是他要怎麼樣能夠轉換成法幣來對照到我們的適合度原則跟說明義務這一塊其實是很重要的事那穩定幣的部分呢借鑒央行在昨天跟前天已經見報的相關的資料上面來說或許在目前的這個現階段可以由主管機關積極的主動輔導"},{"start":5926.269,"end":5952.098,"text":"或者是由電子支付機構來主動的申請去做試辦跟試驗以電資的方式來做穩定幣跟相關未來的一個實驗跟開放的一個相關的基礎那最後呢大概就是在我們的素養的這個這個生化上呢以及我們的主題式的創新的這個實驗上要怎麼樣能夠讓沙盒跟試辦後的暫時營業的機制以及在未來落地上該怎麼處理這個也是在未來搭配這個搭配的措施上呢必須要去考慮到的地方"},{"start":5952.638,"end":5961.547,"text":"以上針對於今天的問題做簡單的報告若有不對請各位指正謝謝謝謝林教授那接著我們請陳官泰執行長是謝謝謝謝鄭執行長"},{"start":5980.166,"end":5997.626,"text":"主席各位委員主管機關也各位先進大家好我是中華民國虛擬同業工會的理事長鄭光泰在此我代表全體會員提出以下的成果與兩點建議自從打造新司法上路以來我們虛擬資產的業者與政府合作越來越密切"},{"start":5999.162,"end":6021.356,"text":"除了積極參與產業聯防之外,我們也與檢警調、監理單位保持緊密的聯繫,一起罪罰不罰金流。根據行政局的統計,我們目前透過所謂的公私利益的合作,我們已經查獲了大概五千萬左右,目前待處理的部分還有七千萬,正在返還中。但是其實我們碰到一個很大的問題,就是因為我們的手邊上的"},{"start":6023.342,"end":6050.034,"text":"我們從一直以來我們並沒有太多的金融工具可以來驗證所謂的民眾這邊所提供的一些他們的資產證明基本上所有的封控裡面其實我們針對於一些比較大筆的金利或者是我們根據一些比較後面的一些用戶的一些太陽我們會做一些封控的處理但是用戶提交資料完之後其實我們並沒有真正有很好的工具來判斷這些用戶所提供的這些資訊"},{"start":6050.974,"end":6080.468,"text":"我們業者頂多只能夠為了自保我們就挽救這些用戶開戶但是其實往往其實會讓我們的業者面臨到一些風險像譬如說我們也有業者同業他們有所謂的使用者跑到營業單位裡面來大吵大鬧然後對業者產生所謂的威脅其實這部分其實是我們現在目前Vespa業者裡面所碰到的一些窘境那我們也期盼說能夠在這一次登記這次專法過後之後我們能夠有一些"},{"start":6081.007,"end":6100.659,"text":"所謂的金融工具像連針或者是與定義業者合作甚至我們可以跟各家銀行做一些更密切的打造工具聯防資訊的交換這樣的話其實事實上才有辦法讓我們資產的數位加密業者資產能夠在這方面的用戶的品質上面能夠更進取的發展好"},{"start":6110.72,"end":6125.434,"text":"第二點的部分就是我們希望明確規定在專法的時候其實有一點就是我們如果今天業者他遭到駁回的時候不得繼續經營所謂的資產優惠服務我們希望能夠明定規範"},{"start":6127.065,"end":6146.423,"text":"那因為區域資產有多元化,如果他不確定的話,可以讓業者繼續營業他中間其實那個過渡其實反而會讓業者擔心說我到底是能還是不行所以說如果他今天被駁回的時候,希望業者能夠收到公文能夠確認說OK,他今天是不能再營業了不要讓他有一個所謂的空中期等待"},{"start":6147.881,"end":6173.251,"text":"然後另外一件事情是專法的申請的部分,我們希望說能夠再延長因為其實我們業者本身呢,其實在不論是登記制還有在之後的專法呢其實我們必須要串聯的聯防資料,準備所有的軍營資產的一些不論是保管業務,其實非常非常的沉重那在這些狀況下呢,其實我們並沒有太多的時間可以作為充分的準備"},{"start":6174.481,"end":6190.293,"text":"我們也希望說所有的同業都能夠在準備的同業能夠保持得非常充足而且資料品質夠好讓更多的同業能夠加入所以說我們最大的訴求是希望說能夠讓這一次的專法的審查能夠做一定的延期好不好 謝謝大家好 謝謝 謝謝鄭執行長 謝謝接著我們請蔡依林律師"},{"start":6204.432,"end":6225.817,"text":"主席各位先進大家早安我想我今天在工會的政理市長後面跟大家報告有幾個我自己想表達的第一個因為我不是業者但是這個產業我真的已經從2017年跟到現在"},{"start":6228.237,"end":6241.192,"text":"所以有幾件事情跟大家分享因為我們要制定一個法因為我也曾經是政策的推動跟制定的角色所以我想要分享一下第一個就是這個業者從他們產業類型非常多一直到現在"},{"start":6249.341,"end":6274.27,"text":"可以在一個工會一起來推動一些事情真的業者現在真的很團結而且也很努力在學習怎麼樣合規所以請務必給他們更多的機會因為我自己去年因為擔任亞洲金融科技聯盟的關係聯盟主席的關係我出國了十趟看了各個國家在這個領域的發展"},{"start":6276.131,"end":6297.286,"text":"這是一個國際的產業舞台我們能不能領先能不能當領頭羊現在還看不到但是我們不要放棄這個機會所以這個產業發展是全球性的我們也不應該只有從監管的角度入門那當然"},{"start":6299.908,"end":6317.665,"text":"詐騙是我們檢警調單位非常頭痛的事也是社會非常關注的事但是即使像新加坡監管這麼嚴格他們的詐騙也是不斷地在增加那很大的原因也是境外的詐騙所以詐騙的問題似乎也不應該影響到整個產業的發展的推動"},{"start":6324.071,"end":6340.049,"text":"那我首先必須要先謝謝我覺得金管會在這段時間給了業者非常多充分溝通的機會那這個溝通的密集跟這個溝通的這個深度是讓業者"},{"start":6341.971,"end":6357.362,"text":"對於公部門比較有信心因為本來這些新創的業者基本上他們很自由嘛所以你要管他難免會有一些抗拒可是儘管會在過去這一段時間我覺得給予很多直接溝通的機會"},{"start":6358.223,"end":6381.178,"text":"那同時用漸進式的監管這個也是非常我自己常常在國外會講台灣的監管用漸進式的這個對於一個新的產業是非常重要因為你不管即使你說一開始從洗房是不是很好的方向可是它確實是一個讓業者慢慢去熟悉的一個領域那這個漸進的方式呢引導業者進入一個監管的環境"},{"start":6383.78,"end":6399.446,"text":"那這個過程裡面其實有公部門跟私部門互相的學習我們一起學習讓公部門覺得你管得到也讓私部門覺得我做得到所以我覺得這個方向是是我們的成績我們應該很proud"},{"start":6400.146,"end":6427.211,"text":"很驕傲的在國外去推廣我們自己的這個進展那另外我想在座也應該知道我們在幣圈有一句話說幣圈一天人間十年這個是真的是事實其實像我自己是個人長期在追蹤國外這個立法的這個進度11月川普當選之前SEC的態度跟現在差別多大"},{"start":6428.257,"end":6453.613,"text":"也不過幾個月的時間他從他當選SEG就不再找麻煩了一直到現在整個政策180度的轉彎所以在這麼變動劇烈的一個環境我們如何監管不是容易的事所以我非常個人非常認同監管會採取一個母法做原則性的規定大部分授權執法"},{"start":6455.134,"end":6479.158,"text":"我們只有這樣的方式才能維持它的彈性也才有可能監管得好因為你將來的變動是非常快不是你法令的變動監管而已是業者的模式也會變動非常快所以以這個用這個就是母法然後大部分授權執法的方式請務必繼續推動這樣的一個方向"},{"start":6483.459,"end":6499.57,"text":"那另外就是对于国外的投资国外的业者这个部分其实像欧盟日本新加坡其实都有外资去收购当地的业者了这个部分因为这是一个全球的产业的发展了"},{"start":6499.93,"end":6526.986,"text":"我們是不可能玩一套我們自己的遊戲所以對於外資當然入資我們可能有特別的這個政治上的考量那個可以另外的討論但是外資的部分建議我們不要有外資的限制那當然其實這部分儘管會講了很久我們也沒有要限制外資可是因為我們到目前沒有一個外資的公司也許可以開始從現在因為合規成本增加了"},{"start":6527.446,"end":6553.557,"text":"也許可以讓外資進來投資現在的業者也是一個協助我們業者往上成長的一個很好的契機那我相信也會有國外的業者因為我自己經常在外面參加這些論壇我也知道國外業者密切關注台灣的這個產業那很重要的一塊是大家在談監管以外非常重要也是一個產業的發展"},{"start":6554.798,"end":6579.581,"text":"那台灣在這一塊,到底我們虛擬資產要如何跟產業鏈結,會不會是我們的供應鏈?這是非常可能的,因為不管是穩定幣或者是其他的加密貨幣,都非常可能會是將來非常重要的支付工具。"},{"start":6580.302,"end":6598.311,"text":"如果它是個支付工具台灣最強的不就是我們的供應鏈嗎所以我們要不要開始來探索在這個專法通過以後讓我們的加密貨幣有一個合法的地位以後如何利用我們最強的供應鏈來創造我們這個產業的應用場域而讓全世界覺得這個議題在台灣談最合理也最有機會所以"},{"start":6609.456,"end":6636.489,"text":"建議我們應該多吸引外國的投資人到台灣來我相信台積電現在可以有這麼大的發展跟他有非常大的外資投資說不定也是個相關的這個因素那另外有關那個國外業者APP下架這個部分這個坦白講這不會只有在我們這個Kypto這裡啦因為其他的也一樣嘛像你現在進不了國外的券商嘛台灣年輕年輕人用"},{"start":6638.59,"end":6664.866,"text":"First trade多得很嘛 你也進不了嘛所以請拜託就是歸管的時候我們這邊不需要特別嚴格你管其他的地方如果是同樣的這個管理方式是不是在這個部分也給業者多一點空間那另外 我有一點要特別提的就是傳統金融業是不是可以兼營因為條文是寫兼營但要不要加入工會"},{"start":6666.327,"end":6691.925,"text":"個人是比較建議因為今天這個理事長在這裡那我今天不是工會的身份所以我是建議是不是可以不要因為這樣會讓我們這些新創的這些業者可能沒有什麼講話的聲音所以將來銀行去兼營VEST的部分是不是可以不要最後這個不是一小步這是全球關注的我們希望台灣在這個產業有我們在全球上的產業地位謝謝"},{"start":6697.093,"end":6708.709,"text":"好 謝謝蔡律師這個是我們華麗圈的那個加密幣那個加密界的一個女俠他們就這樣稱呼她那接著我們請那個蔓怡貞委員"},{"start":6720.232,"end":6742.333,"text":"謝謝主席各位先進各位親愛的家人大家早安今天我們來參與這個公聽會最關注的就是我們整體虛擬資產與教育環境的健康法規的健全的程度以及資產所有人保障是否到位過去"},{"start":6743.334,"end":6751.367,"text":"我們對虛擬資產的監理相當有限甚至於洗錢繁殖然而"},{"start":6752.677,"end":6776.518,"text":"根據國際貨幣基金的統計虛擬資產全球市價早已經突破一兆美元穩定幣更已經佔虛擬市場交易金額八成以上而且就是整整的進入實體的經濟提供跨境的支付"},{"start":6778.056,"end":6793.863,"text":"資金流通等功能這樣的變化已不再是虛擬世界的邊緣的議題而是玄關國家金融穩定於民眾財產安全的核心挑戰"},{"start":6795.043,"end":6817.257,"text":"我們認為有穩定幣與電子支付在實際功能上先進理應比照電子支付加以管理防止監理套利中央銀行提出的建議包括穩定幣發行人"},{"start":6819.82,"end":6840.094,"text":"繳存的準備金還有申請業務資料遵循外匯規定都是保障金融程序的重要措施我們支持這些規範納入專法並呼應草案中應補強資訊揭露與準備資金審計的制度"},{"start":6845.958,"end":6867.175,"text":"確保發行人不會以模糊空間操作資金或轉嫁風險除了發行人我們特別關注的交易面的規範目前國內詐騙都是橫行的不少紮密的資產被作用為詐騙的工具資產"},{"start":6870.512,"end":6874.734,"text":"特有人受害後往往就是求助我們虛擬資產平台卻因為不屬金融業而逃避監管這對我們全民來說是嚴重的不公平我們不能再讓投資人長期暴露在毫無防護的環境下"},{"start":6894.364,"end":6903.009,"text":"金管會雖然去年被指定為主管機關也發行了十項VASP的指導原則就是說白話 沒有強制的牌照也沒有懲罰權 也沒有定期的監檢實質上人就是無牙的監理"},{"start":6921.579,"end":6934.386,"text":"我們希望金管會正視這一點不要再讓所謂的自律規範成為拖延立法的理由我們在這裡強調也有三點的建議第一點法規必須明確授權主管機關合法牌照實施監禮與懲罰"},{"start":6950.202,"end":6973.527,"text":"不能再留意原則性的建議第二 針對資產所有人應建議資產分離保管交易透明 廣告真實與申訴的機制這是保護人民最基本的條件第三 要有跨部會協調機制因虛擬資產同時牽扯了金流"},{"start":6979.268,"end":6989.373,"text":"資安還有稅務的外匯各部會有各自行政將讓詐騙與風險繼續轉落動未來我們的立法院會我們院會會持續監督專法的進度也會要求主管機關在法案未完成前不得"},{"start":7005.06,"end":7031.634,"text":"以指導原則取代真正的法律責任交易市場的健康與人民的資產安全是我們立法則無旁貸的使命我們一起努力來保護我們人民的財產謝謝大家辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝麥一貞委員接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員那個花言"},{"start":7038.598,"end":7041.261,"text":"當我們追求所愛的快樂的時候先想想失去它你的痛苦我們來看一下"},{"start":7060.528,"end":7087.369,"text":"錢財人人愛 古有黃金 今有虛幣來比比看 黃金跟虛幣哪個勝出可以置物交易 黃金可以 過去可以 虛幣現在可以我們說要投資增值 黃金可以 虛幣可以要裝飾炫富 哇沒有看過把冷錢包掛在身上的 黃金可以 虛幣不可以但是說到記名黃金沒有記名 虛幣打個問號才對然後傳送 黃金不好攜帶 也不好運送 虛幣很好用所以"},{"start":7088.576,"end":7108.009,"text":"當我們還在討論虛幣怎麼管理的時候詐騙集團洗錢先用虛幣來做這是今天的新聞往下看那到底我們今天從黃幣的角度來考慮虛幣未來的管理的時候主管機關是誰過去主管機關一直不能產生我們看到法幣呢銀行是金管匯管"},{"start":7109.302,"end":7126.948,"text":"那如果是債券、證券,它的屬性有價值波動的有價平振好了,虛幣不管是記名不記名的它有序號,也跟前面的債券、證券很像因此好像目前變成是證期局作為主管器官跑不掉了,就是你證期局往下看"},{"start":7127.648,"end":7142.256,"text":"好那麼證券商虛幣跟三資業者都要KYC我們都知道最近呢我們在遇到這個金錢財務犯罪的時候我們最關心的就是這個財務是誰的所有權人是誰成為我們追查"},{"start":7144.965,"end":7162.314,"text":"銀錢犯罪的一個重要的過程所以呢KYC就是第一步那麼目前我們的法令很清楚最後就會簡單講過券商管理規則三十四條三十五條之一洗錢房制法第六條還有這個相關的打擊自恐辦法的第三條都說包括我們"},{"start":7163.995,"end":7189.714,"text":"虛擬資產地方支付呢都要負有確認戶客身份的最終責任好那我們來看一下過去怎麼做之前我也提過今天再重複的提一次怎麼樣防止人頭提供人頭戶給詐團呢因此在券商的時候交割的時候呢有KYC臨櫃的時候要確認你身份銀行開戶的時候KYC要確認你身份然後電子業者你也要經過什麼地方呢財經資訊公司財經資訊公司怎麼幫忙做KYC"},{"start":7192.156,"end":7196.147,"text":"怎麼做 很簡單他請你開戶的時候呢你的手機號碼"},{"start":7197.54,"end":7226.619,"text":"你的手機號碼跟你原來留存的不一樣如果不一樣我來開戶的人跟我原來這個帳戶後面的各支的手機號碼不一樣這就馬上通報了三支有沒有虛幣有沒有沒有因為有了財經公司的把關透過一次性動態密碼這個OTP的發布我們就有辦法把KYC在前面這三個部分做起來了但是虛幣跟三支一樣目前沒有金管會要"},{"start":7227.64,"end":7237.673,"text":"不是金管會因為財經資源公司是央行在管的所以央行跟金管會為了防詐這個部分幫忙加油一下好 但是接下來我要談金管會的業務是什麼"},{"start":7238.973,"end":7264.138,"text":"自然能憑證最近自然能憑證被拿去當人頭使用你活該嘛你把鑰匙交給賊你家裡當會被偷啊你自然能憑證交給別人被拿去當人頭啊有沒有防範的辦法有嘛其實一樣是自然能憑證線上開戶的時候只要通過財經資訊公司去確認這個使用自然能憑證線上開戶的人他的手機號碼你發送OTP只要不是他"},{"start":7264.918,"end":7292.66,"text":"就沒辦法了除非你這個自然能憑證是一個什麼是個金融的數位新生代新生兒他過去從來沒有開過戶從炸團取得他自然憑證之後就是用一個炸團的手機不然的話很容易查出來金管會不要只是停止自然能憑證的使用而要思考到怎麼樣運用現有的機制去防止自然能憑證被濫用好往下看所以我們看到加密貨幣常常被害"},{"start":7294.479,"end":7322.375,"text":"這個是國內國外的好那怎麼防呢往下看我們自動安全的管理法規現在預告的第14條這裡面還動用了洗錢方法第5條他說我們目前數位金融一共有35項包括是你不同的規模跟技術不要放進去那是否我們可以根據這個方法來比照目前對於數位金融的安全控管來對於虛幣未來的安全規範做嚴防呢往下看譬如說"},{"start":7323.255,"end":7334.324,"text":"現在金融資安方案第二點零有這些東西這裡面要求符合國際資安的管理標準ISO27001好 但是現在做到什麼程度往下看"},{"start":7335.506,"end":7356.328,"text":"我們現在看一下連一個這麼簡單的電子發票的應用程式就是你暫存電子發票可以幫你查發票的我們都要符合這個規範了那未來虛幣的交易管理保存要不要達到這個標準思考一下往下看ISO 27001好我們看到了自通的安全漏洞再給爭取一分鐘的時間"},{"start":7357.625,"end":7373.877,"text":"我們都看到這個熟悉的畫面永遠的帥哥電影巨星Tom Cruise在Mission Impossible的第一集當中他為了要駭進去他必須進入機房但是我們看一下目前有一個漏洞我們往下看來我們看看好再往前"},{"start":7375.72,"end":7396.566,"text":"除了進入機房之外我們在好萊塢電影看到很多諜報片喔不用到機房喔今天到營業大廳我跟客戶的談話遠方聽不到我們在講什麼但是呢透過監視器注視我水杯的震動波紋可以知道我在跟他對話你說這是天方夜譚嗎沒有這是真實發生的還有"},{"start":7397.574,"end":7412.272,"text":"你在一個安全的環境裡面結果客戶的手機的晶片桌上的電腦裡面的滑鼠有沒有可能都被害呢我們來看一下現在規定國安治安管理標準ISO 27001"},{"start":7414.144,"end":7431.055,"text":"但是他有一個漏洞他的驗證流程相當完備但是呢決定驗證的範圍誰來決定申請驗證人來決定我申請驗證人在ISO27001我只要求設機房我的營業大廳我不設房我的客戶的手機我不設房只要一個單純的中國的熱心"},{"start":7434.017,"end":7456.816,"text":"ESP32這樣的低階晶片它就有辦法通過它主要是用來Wi-Fi跟藍牙模式各位手上你的手機有沒有Wi-Fi有沒有藍牙可能就有這樣的低階晶片這樣的低階晶片要不要列入我們聯合申請中心ISO27001來稽查呢要不要納入呢可以任由申請者自己管嗎往下看"},{"start":7457.748,"end":7463.986,"text":"所以包括行動的APP我們客戶手機上下載的這些APP它有沒有辦法通過我們速發部"},{"start":7466.67,"end":7494.563,"text":"我們是發署裡面有一個資安跨領域聯防機物聯網場域的推動計畫當中他有沒有辦法在L3還有教育行為的這個APP有沒有辦法納入規範所以當我們今天在談未來的虛幣虛擬資產我們要怎麼樣去立法來規管的時候其實立法的架構剛剛專家學者講了很多但是今天從我們民眾最關心的當我追求所愛的時候我要想想我失去他心中的痛苦"},{"start":7495.263,"end":7522.441,"text":"這也是當我們創造一個新的財富的時候我們要去思考這個財富如何防止成為犯罪的冤首因此呢在這裡不厭其強的再度的從防詐的角度來提出未來虛擬資產的交易法規的規管當中我們用現有的經驗去謀取教訓趕快的把這些防範的機制呢一併在法規當中呢予以明確的規範避免日後生成漏洞到時候又來後悔又來難過以上建議 謝謝"},{"start":7524.69,"end":7525.673,"text":"好 謝謝嘉賓委員接著請賴世寶召委"},{"start":7547.263,"end":7561.617,"text":"謝謝主席幾個先進今天能夠開這樣的公聽會實在是個創舉因為大家都知道虛擬貨幣在台灣金融圈這裡一直大家不被討論"},{"start":7562.978,"end":7592.218,"text":"因為很重要的一個原因就是因為央行到現在為止不承認它是一個貨幣不承認它是法幣在這樣的一個前提之下我們金管會施展就很不容易好不容易我認真的讀了金管會所提的這份報告硬擠一些東西出來可是你注意看你注意看它裡面所提到的你看第一個階段就是什麼"},{"start":7593.999,"end":7614.057,"text":"防洗 防治洗錢和打擊滋口第二階段 建立統一國會的自律第三階段 以洗錢防治法 增訂NASP等機制以及非法業者刻意行使責任第四階段 才推動虛擬資產的管理專法立法"},{"start":7614.677,"end":7643.233,"text":"所以這樣一個很重要的重點重中之重就是說到底虛擬貨幣在中華民國在我們這個地方它到底是不是資產它是不是貨幣這個問題要先去本來處理的這個問題因為央行的立場非常的堅定它認為它不是貨幣所以就使得金管位在做很多事情就愛說愛講金管位現在出手也不是不出手也不是"},{"start":7644.053,"end":7662.167,"text":"我們原來想的是說是不是有一套的管理辦法像比如說我們看到的美國的最大的虛擬貨幣的交易所就是Coinbase那麼在2021年的時候你就看到它已經上市了"},{"start":7663.522,"end":7679.39,"text":"這是台灣有沒有我們金管會允不允許或者有沒有規劃未來台灣某一個虛擬貨幣的交易所可以在我們這裡 台灣的交易所裡面可以升級上市可以嗎"},{"start":7680.874,"end":7702.893,"text":"這份報告裡面沒有看到這個東西這份報告裡面我們就看到它完全是要防止洗錢只有這個目的只有這個重點防止洗錢可是我們要看的是現在全世界虛擬貨幣的交易額已經超過十兆了這麼大的一個量"},{"start":7704.318,"end":7715.923,"text":"大家看到的時候台灣有好幾個交易所啊你們這裡提到啊你就知道明明有很多的這種同業公會存在啊你希望能夠來自律啊但是你怎麼沒有去想到說"},{"start":7717.523,"end":7745.341,"text":"我有一天這個交易所如果一切符合你們的規定也沒有洗錢的問題也沒有這個支桶的問題那郭柯群選了一個那這個他以後能不能能不能夠qualify不qualify申請上市或者上櫃或者新櫃或者我問一個很簡短的一個很簡單的問題那就是現在的這些虛擬貨幣的交易所能不能夠"},{"start":7746.687,"end":7755.102,"text":"他認真做大 以後生氣 上櫃 會死你嗎你這辦法 不知道啊 不知道啊"},{"start":7756.701,"end":7780.216,"text":"可以嗎 可以 好 那是講清楚 跟外面講清楚喔可以來申請上櫃 是吧 上市也可以 是吧那財務要全部透明喔 財務要全部公開喔我想這是第一點我要強調的那第二點我要強調的還是在於 還是危害到這個核心裡面如果認定它是一個資產 目前來講的話"},{"start":7782.222,"end":7800.881,"text":"交易商 交易是不屬於你們管啦是屬於經濟部商業署在管的啊跟他們登記嘛 是不是現在不是你們管的喔現在不是你們管的喔 不是喔什麼你要講洗錢王子嘛我是講說 他本身來講是不是跟你登記 不是嘛是不是跟你登記"},{"start":7816.858,"end":7820.961,"text":"所以我強調的是這個能不能把我們的虛擬貨幣"},{"start":7826.569,"end":7838.075,"text":"這個當作一個虛擬資產假如它當作一個資產那就影響就非常大了影響就非常大了包括我們的公職人員財產申報這個比特幣要不要申報虛擬貨幣要不要申報要不要申報不知道喔你們這個法規定這個法一過以後是不是就要申報"},{"start":7852.836,"end":7862.946,"text":"然後以後有關的東西一切當然你們都是洗錢洗錢所以你們要強調是洗錢那我現在強調是說如果讓它正常化"},{"start":7864.724,"end":7882.912,"text":"如果讓它正常化不要說只有洗錢因為洗錢還是比較偏離屬於房幣這一部分我們說這是一個市場而且這個市場一直在不斷地在漲包括現在因為在川普任內他一直在推這個東西這未來怎麼發展不知道"},{"start":7883.712,"end":7908.864,"text":"所以我覺得金管會可以認真去思考如何因應這個虛擬貨幣的市場交易越來越大的情況之下怎麼樣納管你們現在目前來講都只有納管一個洗錢只有一個洗錢就是洗錢之口就集中在這兩部分其他部分沒有那我說其他部分能不能及早規劃了好不好就是個人的見解請各位指教 謝謝"},{"start":7910.912,"end":7911.393,"text":"葛如荊委員"},{"start":7933.902,"end":7957.783,"text":"各位先進大家好首先感謝主席安排這次的公聽會另外也要感謝我們金管會主委副主委在虛擬資產污名化上面的去污名化上面的努力以開放的精神來面對數位金融與虛擬資產的服務持續的我們一起來推動台灣虛擬資產監理從工會自律走向法規化的進程"},{"start":7958.68,"end":7970.247,"text":"那我相信只要秉持開放的態度鼓勵創新嚴打不法我們台灣一定能夠打造出適合本地的台灣模式虛擬資產監理的機會讓良幣驅逐劣幣"},{"start":7975.51,"end":7999.988,"text":"然而我們也可以知道國際之間已經迅速的佈局美國剛通過了Genius Act這個程序性的表決讓穩定幣來建立這個聯邦宇宙的雙軌間裡而日本也將穩定幣納入了金融法規也希望能夠做相關的推動南韓則提出Digital Asset Basic Act希望能夠規範韓元穩定幣的發行並且積極的推動"},{"start":8004.551,"end":8030.701,"text":"以及ETF的開放甚至比特幣相關的一些推進他們也在討論當然我想各地的條件不同台灣也應該會有我們自己的本地模式但是如果我們此時猶豫就將失去全球金融發展的佈局機會甚至有可能被邊緣化因此對於虛擬資產服務法我希望能夠提出以下幾點重點主張第一個"},{"start":8031.681,"end":8057.982,"text":"比特幣不僅是國家儲備的數位黃金在地緣政治風險的影響之下個人也應該要增加金融韌性和數位自主儘管會限制相關現金來購買虛擬貨幣儘管我們理解目的良善但是卻有可能扼殺良性的使用場景和環境例如過去2016年起其實台灣的便利店就是我們的世界之光台灣之光"},{"start":8058.973,"end":8087.333,"text":"全世界都知道在台灣是一個擁抱先進思維的地方但是現在這個機會卻消失了我建議應該有條件的保留現金與虛擬資產的交換空間第二點希望持續的重視數位自主不應該過度的限制私藥託管跟服務的提供者就像保險箱公司不應該納入銀行法監管一樣我們希望大家都能夠理解第三點"},{"start":8088.374,"end":8102.976,"text":"支持將數位貨幣適量的納入主權儲備進行更多的討論以多元化的儲備、戰略的儲備以及金融監理開放的態度去面對國際金融市場的波動"},{"start":8103.777,"end":8121.166,"text":"同時建立友善並且具產業導向的課稅制度我們也希望對於相關的虛擬貨幣的法規以及相關的稅務的討論希望以鼓勵創新鼓勵產業鼓勵個人金融多元化為主要依歸"},{"start":8122.367,"end":8137.417,"text":"同時第四點我們也建議希望監理能夠持續的從先制率後塌率在立法的階段式策略來進行一定要兼顧市場的活力當然我們也要顧到民眾的安全"},{"start":8138.356,"end":8156.29,"text":"第五点,我们希望金管会积极的推动稳定币的发展,与国际接轨,避免数位经济边缘化。近期我们看到USDC的发行商Circle在美国顺利的IPO受到市场的欢迎,这是一个例子。"},{"start":8157.111,"end":8171.591,"text":"同時發展良好的本地穩定幣也可以平衡實體世界經濟可能在現在的現狀之下發生突變或者失衡增進我們台灣的金融韌性跟主權"},{"start":8173.462,"end":8193.565,"text":"第六点我们希望还是要来讨论比特币现货的ETF鼓励法人与个人都能够参与这样的一个国际市场金融业则可以转型有更多的创新我们既有的平台服务业者也希望能够让他们发行更多元更创新的商品"},{"start":8194.54,"end":8207.254,"text":"技術上台灣是擁有國家級的加密儲備與私藥管理的能力完全具備競爭力不應該顧慮過多而錯失良機我也希望能夠支持今晚會來擴大虛擬資產"},{"start":8209.896,"end":8225.252,"text":"數位金融創新的人力量能同時在薪資上我們也希望我們的行政院就算不能協助相關的人才對企業界但是也希望能夠盡力跟上各國監理機構的薪資水平"},{"start":8226.107,"end":8254.222,"text":"最後國際數位金融的時代來臨我們台灣一定要有自信不要害怕連結世界台灣應該要把手伸出去以前瞻的思維才有辦法果斷的領先才有機會成為我們金管會希望能夠共同打造的亞洲數位金融的領航者一起為青年的世代AI的世代甚至人類要成為跨星際物種的下一個世代一起打造追夢創新的"},{"start":8265.71,"end":8281.241,"text":"目前登記花園的專家寫者經已花園完畢那繼續我們請行政機關回應相關的一個意見那我們依序是請金管會、中央銀行跟法務部回應那請金管會副主委請"},{"start":8288.733,"end":8310.682,"text":"首先感謝趙偉、各位委員、央行、法務部以及與會學者在這個專法的預告跟預告前期間我們舉辦了多場正式跟非正式的公聽會或諮詢會議我們也廣納了許多的意見而這一場的會議其實我們也聽到了許多各位的心聲"},{"start":8311.562,"end":8333.961,"text":"所以說我們也會詳細思考,我們會一併納入一個專法的一個修正,讓這個專法更去完善那對於幾個的,可能沒有辦法一一的完全回應,對幾個我聽到重要的一個部分第一個對於這個所謂虛擬資產支付業務,特別是對穩定幣支付性質穩定幣的依據或這一些的"},{"start":8335.982,"end":8350.867,"text":"這個問題呢其實目前國外的一個虛擬資產支付當然是以穩定幣為一個主要的一個工具那我們目前為怎麼目前為當然只有緊究一個穩定幣的發行上架審查其實定有這個規範將來司法呢也會更為明確"},{"start":8353.228,"end":8371.776,"text":"那當然我們也留有一個將來其他的虛擬資產若有新型的支付的一個形態我們的專法第六條預留了一個彈性的空間所以將來若有根據市場的需求或這一些我們可以發布行政命令就是以此法的方式來擴張"},{"start":8373.956,"end":8403.221,"text":"那再者呢就是說另外一個部分就是說如果將來還有其他的甚至說電子支付業者啦或這一些的其實很多的一個商業的模式我們在專法當中已經留有一個所謂的這個沙盒對金融科技的發展跟實驗創新條例的這一個連結所以呢在這個部分假設跟其他法會有一個干擱的地方其實也可以透過沙盒的一個部分"},{"start":8403.781,"end":8411.889,"text":"沙盒的部分來處理那再者對於體質良好國際業者來抬落地的一個部分我們再次強調我們很樂見"},{"start":8416.622,"end":8434.293,"text":"國際配合我國法規監體機關執法機關的需求業者為我們的市場注入活水在一個安全合規的前提下我們是要健全發展我們也期盼將來的先進一些國際業者能怎樣進入我國的市場"},{"start":8440.357,"end":8446.86,"text":"再者有一些業者是對於過度條款的延長我們有聽到我們會慎重思考對延長過度期限的考量我們會慎重思考這個地方我們會再開會看看"},{"start":8462.986,"end":8479.575,"text":"也会跟业者在沟通我们来做一个就是要让业者有充分时间做准备我们不是说直接就把它砍掉那这样是没有意义的剩下一个虚无缥缈的市场没有业者这个市场是假的"},{"start":8480.635,"end":8502.198,"text":"再者對於一個消費者保護投資者就是金融消費者投資者強化的一個部分我們也會在此法當中有關利益衝突這一些此法當中我們會納入那再者就是說對於一個金保法就是金融消費者保護法是不是有些的部分有些的業務有些商把它"},{"start":8502.698,"end":8530.108,"text":"指定進入我們也會跟業者我們也會這樣畢竟這個市場是大家的我們是不是只有監管而是要發展也會再跟業者公會來協調看看用什麼最好的方式執法金保法或這一些我們來做一個對於消費者的一個保護所以是說呢我們是要建立一個完整的虛擬資產監理的一個架構這個架構也要建築在一個怎樣發展的一個可能性老此道德堅強"},{"start":8530.708,"end":8557.422,"text":"一生二、二生三、三生萬物其實我們有一個基礎的架構在業者的商業模式再加上我們主管機關的架構跟配合之下我想一定能兼顧產業發展跟保護交易人的權益以及發達我國的一個經濟也希望在座的各位對我們將來發展業以及對競爭會更多的支持以及提供更多的建議謝謝各位"},{"start":8559.177,"end":8559.357,"text":"主席"},{"start":8582.518,"end":8610.396,"text":"各位參議者還有金管會副主委那我想這邊就是幾個大方向跟大家做一個資訊上的分享第一個我想在法的一個金管方面呢現在已經走向要專法的制定這個方面我們是給予金管會相當大的肯定那第二個就是說既然要訂個專法到底怎麼管我想這個大家是非常關注的重點那有幾個方向我也同意一定是分級管理因為可以依著他的交易量的多寡來做不同樣的管理"},{"start":8610.916,"end":8637.051,"text":"但是分級管理對於低級的管理不是不管輕微管理不是說不管為什麼因為我覺得這次為什麼要訂專法因為以前的洗錢房子已經訂了現在應該是回到消費者保護這一塊所以如果你覺得對那些如果交易量不是夠大的不去管但是萬一消費者保護沒有收到完全的保障那怎麼辦那我覺得這個問題還是要回歸到主管機關的身上要去處理這樣的一個狀況所以雖然叫分級管理但是對於交易量"},{"start":8637.611,"end":8653.681,"text":"如果說沒有達到一定的金額的部分我是主張還是要比較屬於輕度的管理不是不管那輕度管理怎麼管我們了解有些國家就是用註冊他不一定要有一個資本的限制他可能只要註冊就好了"},{"start":8654.261,"end":8671.282,"text":"但是註冊裡面一定要有資產的分別管理所以你的準備資產你是怎麼管的這部分要有資訊上的結論因為你是1比1的兌換所以將來如果消費者要贖回這個法幣你一定要有充分的準備資產讓他贖回或者消費者是沒辦法做到完全的一個保障"},{"start":8672.103,"end":8686.85,"text":"那再來就是剛才金管委員也提到不管是境內或境外一定是屬於落地監管也就是說境外的人如果要在台灣提供國內的服務一定是落地的這樣才避免所謂的監管套利跟不公平競爭的狀況那之前我想大家也很關注就是說現在不是有一些詐騙的廣告啦或者是"},{"start":8695.526,"end":8714.844,"text":"太過的那種廣告引起這個消費者可能他的權益沒辦法保障我想我們在報告也提到說事實上有些國家已經制定一些該來也就是說你如果做這樣的廣告那你要說明你跟這個業者之間是委託關係還是金錢上的一個收取的幫他促銷的關係這個都要提清楚的"},{"start":8715.524,"end":8731.111,"text":"那還有就是說如果你有不實的廣告這個部分引起消費者的這樣的一個權益受到損害那業者這部分是不是要分擔相關的責任我想這個在國外有一些蓋賴我想我報導這邊就有說所以我這邊不再追溯那再來就是"},{"start":8732.532,"end":8743.336,"text":"至於跨部會的部分我想我們跟金管會是溝通非常好我報告也提到說事實上金管會在訂專法之前有找我們溝通過在訂專法的過程也有來找我們溝通過那訂了這個專法的預告那我們也提供相關意見給金管會參考那我了解金管大致也都參考我們的意見所以這邊的溝通應該是非常的順暢"},{"start":8754.12,"end":8773.592,"text":"最後我要提到社交央行的穩定幣的部分事實上穩定幣,如果我們有看到央行的報告事實上未來的數位貨幣會有四種現在的貨幣體系是準備金,就是我們的wholesale的一個貨幣那retail就是我們的現金,就是公部門發行的"},{"start":8774.913,"end":8796.414,"text":"那私部門會有兩塊,一塊就是銀行的存款還有所謂的電子支付,就是分洋發行的部分這是現在的貨幣體系,那未來貨幣體系也是有四部分兩個部分是公部門,兩個部分是私部門也就是未來的,現在的準備金代幣化就變成所謂的Hot Sale CBDC現在的現金代幣化就變成所謂的Retail CBDC"},{"start":8797.395,"end":8816.476,"text":"但至於私部門的存款就變成存款代幣那至於非銀行底系發行的電子支付代幣化就是所謂的穩定幣所以如果我們從私部門來看這樣的一個未來貨幣的體系它就是比較像電子支付的代幣化是一種代幣化的均富工具不是法幣"},{"start":8817.677,"end":8834.143,"text":"那回歸到這種代表的資助工具所以它都回歸到所謂現在參組的電子管理條例的相關的規定所以一樣才有說準備金的規定啊婚姻申報的規定啊還有業務申報的規定那我想這部分就是我們現在在金黃那邊也會多納入管理那我想說這樣的請要說明 謝謝"},{"start":8840.543,"end":8843.308,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝謝局長那我們接著請法務部那個謝志明護士長 謝謝"},{"start":8852.537,"end":8871.527,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 學者專家今天貴園會召開虛擬資產服務法公聽會本部應邀列席僅就所列的討論提綱 僅要提供意見如下有關討論提綱一 市社主管機關經管會的職責本部是尊重其政策判斷"},{"start":8872.427,"end":8891.06,"text":"不過在預告版本裡面的罰則章相關條文裡面有提到自動繳交其犯罪所得應與減免其刑的部分因為最高法院在113年度台上大4096號的裁定提出了新的見解認為所謂的其犯罪所得指的是"},{"start":8891.78,"end":8908.557,"text":"行為人因犯罪而實際取得的個人所得所以行為人如果沒有實際取得個人所得他只要自白就可以減刑所以日後的實務運作結果在這樣的現行的條文結構底下對犯罪被害人的保護恐有未盡周延之處"},{"start":8909.458,"end":8935.629,"text":"是建請是不是也一併來檢討修正草案的相關文字至於金管會嚴靈中的虛擬資產服務法相關的具體內容如果金管會有向本部徵詢法治意見時我們將會提供協助至於提綱二的部分一樣試涉金管會的職責本部尊重其政策判斷討論提綱三因為目前現行的洗錢防治法第六條第一項第四項跟第五項"},{"start":8936.389,"end":8962.735,"text":"其實針對洗房登記以及洗房登記未遵守時相關的法則已經定有規範所以就提示請醒現行法制並不是全無規範的狀態底下不過現行法制的規範密度是不是有足夠是不是應該服以行政的管制措施那以及研擬中的草案是不是要出於不同的行政目的而吝嗇其他的規定涉及主管機關金管會的權責我們也尊重他的政策判斷"},{"start":8963.655,"end":8986.495,"text":"最後討論提綱四的部分涉及金管會及央行的執掌本部尊重其政策決定不過這邊建議為了減少日後可能衍生的糾紛就境外穩定幣是不是要一併納管以及其納管之後的管制密度如何見請相關主管機關考量以上意見敬請各位委員專家學者及先進參考謝謝"},{"start":8988.734,"end":8989.655,"text":"以下主席作成結論第一 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有一個尊嚴善忠的一個方式"},{"start":551.377,"end":576.188,"text":"所以蠻期待的今天剛剛很謝謝建國派了這麼好的一個公典會今天也請了很多專家、學者的意見今天那個敬禮還有很多那個會不會有很多人來看能不能多注意一下現在台灣的每個角落裡面有多少的民眾他已經承受不了他的痛苦了"},{"start":577.642,"end":592.239,"text":"那怎麼樣讓他減少病痛讓他是非常有尊嚴的很期待我知道這個很困難面對死亡真的很困難要看這個真的很多地方還是機會可是我們真的要去面對這個問題希望有機會可以往前快一步謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16753","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ead714ad69ae6c79146425655b8120616f8b19dddded0b194f219e59fed54145995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央選舉委員會預算凍結專案報告案：中央選舉委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議（一）、（四）及新增決議（三三五）預算凍結專案報告，請查照案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-12T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-12T09:59:00+08:00","duration":5340,"影片長度":"01:29:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 - 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請主任秘書報告出席人數出席委員8人 已足法定人數好 現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1848.157,"end":1876.673,"text":"立法院第十一届第三会期内政委员会第24次全体委员会议议事录时间114年6月4日星期三上午9时3分至11时59分地点红楼202会议室出席委员苏乔惠委员等13人联席委员钟嘉斌委员等9人请假委员黄建斌委员1人联席官员内政部部长刘士芳及相关人员行政院性别平等处副处长林秋军原住民组委员会公共建设处副处长周席卫法务部参事廖江冼财政部副税署副署长陈慧琦"},{"start":1877.373,"end":1894.418,"text":"卫生福利部、交通部、经济部、劳动部等机关代表及相关人员主席牛召集委员许婷报告事项宣读上次会议一事录决定确定讨论事项一审查建筑法修正查案及实案二审查委员牛许婷等18人拟据平均地权条例第25条条文修正查案"},{"start":1894.978,"end":1896.159,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":1920.018,"end":1936.188,"text":"書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關與一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議以上個案均臨定期繼續審查通過臨時提案以案宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏好議事錄確定我們進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1940.29,"end":1957.552,"text":"继续审查114年度中央政府总预算有关中央选举委员会预算冻结专案报告案中央选举委员会函为114年度中央政府总预算决议减送决议光湖1光湖4及新增决议光湖335预算冻结专案报告请查照案宣读完毕好"},{"start":1959.417,"end":1987.469,"text":"本日審查之114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央選舉委員會預算凍結狀案報告案約定本會於114年5月12日第11屆第三會期第19次會議決議另定期繼續審查原此本次會議繼續進行審查那我現在先介紹在場委員及列席官員高金淑美委員"},{"start":1991.008,"end":2014.942,"text":"好 劉許廷召委麥玉珍委員好 王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃潔委員好 李柏毅委員好 那我們就是中選會的主委李靖勇 李主委"},{"start":2018.015,"end":2025.23,"text":"好那我們現在進行討論事項繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央選舉委員會預算凍結專案報告案G3案"},{"start":2031.805,"end":2053.869,"text":"來 請問各位有沒有好 高靜委員好 謝謝昭偉上一次我們在這裡在質詢以及在解凍我們中選會的預算的時候當時我堅持就是還有原住民的幾個問題沒有解決那麼昨天晚上大概5點半左右中選會也提供了一些補充的說明但是在今天我還是得在我們委員會裡面請我們的主委來做"},{"start":2056.79,"end":2080.296,"text":"更詳細的一些補充說明我有三點麻煩您待會回應一下第一點就是關於秘密投票跟集中投票的問題那麼中選會你給我的補充報告上面說數據上近年明顯是減少只有三個人投票的投開票所但是我想請問您的是有沒有具體的數字或者是例子可以讓大家清楚看到效果"},{"start":2080.916,"end":2110.041,"text":"另外呢這樣的調整是不是可以繼續再推動下去讓類似的情況是越來越少甚至沒有再發生第二個問題是關於選務疏失改善的問題那麼這一次的事辦方案呢你給我的是說要有三個方向要一起做第一個是包括原住民的名冊單獨要照冊第二個是專人來協助原住民領票第三個是要彈性調度人力協助"},{"start":2110.741,"end":2126.23,"text":"發票那麼我想問一下這樣的設計方向我們是肯定的但是我更想要進一步的了解目前預計會幫忙我們多少的原住民的族人選民比起原本的做法是不是有擴大影響的範圍那麼將來這個制度還有沒有可能適用更多地區或者是要全面實施"},{"start":2134.754,"end":2148.604,"text":"這是比較重要的一件事情雖然您示範我們看到示範是有這幾個方向但是呢我們更期待的是未來是要全面實施我們讓我們的族人在選舉在投票的時候不要再發生這樣的情況第三個是關於時間安排還有落實那麼中選會你們在這個報告上面提到"},{"start":2156.77,"end":2185.877,"text":"这些措施预计是从下半年的12月跟地方选委会来讨论而明年地方选举会全面上路我们真的想要确认一下这样的时程目前是不是已经有详细的规划因为原住民投票便利的问题其实在我们组园里面已经期待很久了也希望这一次真的能够确实执行不要再延后以上有三个问题麻烦您详细再说明一下好吗谢谢"},{"start":2188.96,"end":2192.448,"text":"還有沒有其他委員沒有的話我們請李主委說明"},{"start":2203.682,"end":2229.92,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生非常感謝各位繼續來審查本會的這個保留預算的部分那尤其是剛剛高金委員所提出的幾個問題都是針對原住民選舉事務怎麼樣讓我們的原住民他們是方便的而且是有尊嚴的來行使他們的投票權"},{"start":2231.501,"end":2250.585,"text":"特別感謝在這段時間裡面我們的同仁一再的多次到委員的辦公室來進行打擾那委員的助理也給我們很多的指教那給我們同仁很大的鼓勵我再次表示由衷的感謝之意剛剛委員所提出的三個問題那第一個問題就是我們"},{"start":2255.546,"end":2276.894,"text":"這個原住民的投票秘密應該要如何的來加強保護那過去這個問題也引起大家很廣泛的關切我們的努力是兩個大的方向第一個大的方向就是盡量的希望能夠來設置集中的投票所"},{"start":2277.654,"end":2301.229,"text":"就是原住民專屬的集中的投票所但是這樣子的一個方向恐怕沒有辦法非常廣泛的去推行因為這牽涉到原住民他們散佈的地域以及我們選舉各種種類的選舉不同也因此在選務的技術上會比較受到多的限制"},{"start":2301.849,"end":2321.056,"text":"但是我們還是盡量的鼓勵各地的選委會希望他們能夠克服這些困難那麼第二個方向就是我們盡可能的將原住民選舉人調整到同一個選舉區內其他的投票所就是"},{"start":2322.496,"end":2349.113,"text":"匯集比較多的原住民他們能夠共在一個投票所裡面來進行投票這樣子比較不容易洩漏了原住民他們投票的秘密那這幾年我們是很努力的包括我們跟原民的團體我們跟原民的公職人員來進行相關的努力的工作也看到了初步的成效"},{"start":2350.253,"end":2368.847,"text":"這個成效我們就拿第十任的立法委員的選舉來講全國投開票所原住民的人數在三人以下的在第十屆的時候是四千零十個投票所"},{"start":2370.171,"end":2388.187,"text":"那佔當時的總投票所的比例是22.72%這是平地原住民三地原住民的部分三人以下是有4166所所以是佔全部投靠票所的23.6%這是第十屆"},{"start":2391.149,"end":2418.707,"text":"那第十一屆的時候呢這個數字呢就往下掉了就是在平地原住民的部分就剩下兩千九百三十三所全部的投靠票所是一萬七千七百九十五所所以佔比是百分之十六點四八從上一屆的二十二點七二降到十六點四八在山地原住民的部分呢"},{"start":2422.49,"end":2443.178,"text":"所佔的比例是18.17%相對於第十任的時候23.6%也是很明顯的有降低這代表我們努力初步的有一些成果當然不以此為滿足了我們在選務方面怎麼樣能夠更進一步的來精進"},{"start":2444.278,"end":2457.323,"text":"那尤其我們在跟原民團體之間的溝通怎麼樣能夠更加有效率能夠讓這個工作能夠達到更好的目標我們會繼續在努力這是第一個問題那麼在第二個問題的部分就是我們"},{"start":2466.764,"end":2489.734,"text":"三個很重要的這個選務改革的重點一個就是原住民的選舉人名冊要單獨編列這個為什麼會有這樣子的一個主張其實基於過去選務的經驗的確有時候在這個投開票所裡面我們要找到原住民的這個在"},{"start":2491.215,"end":2505.676,"text":"投票人名冊裡面可能要找一段時間有曾經發生過這種現象所以如果能夠就原住民的投票人名冊單獨來編列當然是會進行的更加的順利"},{"start":2506.818,"end":2528.228,"text":"那這一點在我們選務部門是責無旁貸應該要去推動但是這個也牽涉到內政部所管的這個互證系統他必須要配合增加這一項的功能那我們會持續的來跟內政部來進行磋商希望他們也能夠共同跟選委中選會共同完成這一項變民的這個工作"},{"start":2535.071,"end":2550.613,"text":"另外呢我們也會有專人的這個協助專人協助原住民不要讓他一進到投開票所的時候這個不知到底往哪個方向到底是在哪一個地方"},{"start":2551.394,"end":2569.166,"text":"所以我們會有專人在查驗國民身份證的時候如果知道他是原住民的話那我們就會有專人的服務到櫃台很方便的在他的專屬的投票名冊裡面找到他的資料"},{"start":2569.986,"end":2586.755,"text":"另外我們也會相對的來這個協調激動的協調人力給於原住民投票更多的協助跟方便這是我們這個進行的三項的這個改革的方向"},{"start":2587.655,"end":2608.648,"text":"那這個工作呢其實以前已經都有陸續的不同程度的一個推動但是現在在委員的這個鼓勵跟支持之下我們這個速度會再加快效果應該會更加提升這是第二個問題跟委員來做報告那第三個問題這個實施的日期"},{"start":2611.83,"end":2627.739,"text":"可能在今年的下半年大概因為今年的下半年最主要的幾個投票的工作包括罷免立委的罷免那因為沒有原住民的這個被罷免人"},{"start":2628.8,"end":2649.989,"text":"那包括這個823的公投這個公投大家都一樣所以也沒有特別區隔出原住民跟一般的這個選民所以在下半年即便是在地方會有一些零星的公職人員的普選但是呢因為任期都已經過半了"},{"start":2652.089,"end":2667.595,"text":"公職人員的罷免但是缺額的時間因為已經過半了所以也不會進行補選所以在下半年也許剛好給我們一個很好的機會我們來進行各項的整備的工作包括跟地方選委會"},{"start":2668.755,"end":2683.149,"text":"必須要跟他們做充分的溝通了解他們執行到底有沒有什麼摯愛之處我們中選會怎麼樣來協助他們克服來做這些整備的工作希望在這個2026的公職人員選舉我們可以進行試辦"},{"start":2689.995,"end":2694.941,"text":"那我也特別感謝高金委員能夠體恤我們選務單位因為如果沒有很周詳的規劃尤其是以事辦的方式來確認它的可行性的話我們還不敢全面的來實施"},{"start":2707.697,"end":2725.573,"text":"那當然全面實施這是一個目標但是在推動的過程裡面容許我們有一個過渡的階段那這一點我想如果事辦的這個效果良好將來全面實施的效果一定會是更加的提升這一點也請委員能夠諒解"},{"start":2727.114,"end":2735.741,"text":"至於到底受惠的人會有多少我們初期這個事辦的階段我們是希望以一萬人為目標以一萬人為目標那實施的結果將來當然這個"},{"start":2743.368,"end":2757.106,"text":"適用的面會越來越廣是不是能夠達到全面的來實施這也是大家共同努力的一個方向那以上是就委員所關心的三點來提出補充的報告敬請委員支持跟指教謝謝"},{"start":2758.408,"end":2776.627,"text":"好 非常謝謝主委在這邊有比較詳細的說明我有幾個問題再請教一下我希望就是說你剛剛一直在講第十屆 第十一屆我們的那個三個人的投票所那個平均都有數據降低你是不是可以給我們一個目標你到什麼時候呢要完成什麼樣子 好不好"},{"start":2777.968,"end":2785.816,"text":"這是第一個第二個就是呢原住民名冊單獨照冊的問題要跟內政部那能不能讓我知道你跟內政部什麼時候會開會討論然後我相信這個所謂的所謂的這個戶政系統絕對是沒有問題的"},{"start":2793.724,"end":2810.557,"text":"然後接下來我要請這個主委那你們選務當然各地方都有選務可是對於原住民的族群一般的選務人員還是比較不熟悉是不是能夠也請地方的原民局處來協助他們"},{"start":2812.758,"end":2834.193,"text":"這樣子可能您會發揮的更好因為在選務地方的選務上面好像是沒有納入原住民的局處因為各地方都有原住民的局處原民會原民局原民處都有那這些人呢事實上他們會比較了解原民在地的原民的這個特殊性以及他們的"},{"start":2835.193,"end":2850.099,"text":"所在的地方讓他們來協助這個地方的政府會不會更好一點呢然後第三個就是我們期待您就是所謂的以後不要再有失敗讓他全面的可以來施行可不可以"},{"start":2852.745,"end":2872.499,"text":"原住民能夠參與到選務的運作裡面來這個方向我們是絕對的支持人民會的舉措因此我們也會鼓勵各地方政府他們在推薦地方選委會的委員的時候也能夠考慮到原住民他們是不是有機會來參與選務"},{"start":2874.981,"end":2896.431,"text":"另外就是在我們選務工作人員的招募的部分當然這是一個開放的不但是原住民新住民我們都歡迎他們能夠參與到選務的工作裡面來這是第一點第二點事辦當然就是目標指向全面的實施那這個方向是不會改變的"},{"start":2897.711,"end":2918.234,"text":"那第三點就是有關於內政部的協商內政部的協商以及我們是不是有一個KPI這個指標這個回去我們做評估之後再補充報告給委員的辦公室好 謝謝好 謝謝委員那蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":2919.741,"end":2946.927,"text":"好 謝謝主席主委 我想是這樣子原住民投票要能夠兼具便利與保護當事人的祕密我想是所有的委員都非常關心的我們只是沒有用凍結你預算刪除你預算來表達我們的關心所以我覺得主委在回答的時候其實應該是跟整個內政委員會做說明和做報告不是單一的委員當然剛剛高金委員的這些"},{"start":2947.967,"end":2972.887,"text":"指教的點提出的點我都非常的贊成就是因為我們也都遇到同樣的問題我先生自己就是那個投開票的時候就只有兩個人啊所以投出來的票就是長這個樣子啊所以我們很清楚知道這是一個什麼問題所以反過來講那我剛剛這個因為你們還特別你們特別到高金委員辦公室報告那我們也想知道比如說你剛剛說現在我們從三個人降到"},{"start":2974.568,"end":2996.133,"text":"做這個22%平地原住民22%是三人以下的投開票所那麼現在有降低到18 21之類的那請問你是用幾人做標準這是第一個第二個的話你在對這個整個內政委員會報告嘛那在這個過程當中請問全面實施2026年全面實施全面實施什麼"},{"start":2997.213,"end":3005.66,"text":"全面是什麼我們也應該可以理解吧這個問題我們也詢問很多次了啊要了解很多次了所以是不是可以請主委在就這兩個問題做一個簡單的說明也讓我們其他委員都能夠了解進度好謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":3014.187,"end":3035.936,"text":"剛剛因為是凍結提案的是高金委員所以我今天特別跟高金委員來就他所提出的問題來做說明當然我們也非常感謝所有的委員其實對於相關選務的改革包括原住民原住民幾個問題一個是投票秘密的問題一個是不在期投票的問題等等"},{"start":3037.856,"end":3065.973,"text":"委員都相當的關切這也是推動我們精進選務改革很重要的動能我特別向所有的委員表示感謝之意在其次就是有關於KPI的指標我們是以三人以下的投開票數"},{"start":3067.293,"end":3087.685,"text":"設置的這個數量跟當年所有全國各地的這個投開票所總量來做一個比例做一個比例所以是大概在11屆的時候平地原住民是16.483例原住民是18.17這個是就"},{"start":3091.187,"end":3117.944,"text":"我們還在努力就是希望能夠有更多的原住民他們願意大家一起集中在同一個投票所裡面這對他們實際上是會有一些不方便但是過去這幾年我們努力的成果也看到了具體的成效所以這方面我們會繼續的努力以上向蘇委員做報告"},{"start":3121.175,"end":3144.1,"text":"好 蔓薇謝謝主席我要請教一下 因為我現在我們看到的是不在籍投票沒有過這個業務的話我們覺得也不用解凍第二個上次講了就說要來跟我說明說我要求的是說選務人員是不是跟跟我說明說各縣市各投票所有多少人"},{"start":3144.82,"end":3149.261,"text":"因為現在我們新住民要選票就有超過30萬人有身份證但是這個項目你也沒有跟我們說明啊你也沒有跟我們說明也沒有到今天也沒有說明啊就都把政策說光了說光了現在來的也是說光也沒說到所以就像我們蘇委員說的我們高金要求你就是你要去他辦公室講但是那時候"},{"start":3172.088,"end":3175.311,"text":"主席也說說要來跟我說明 也要說要怎麼樣 但現在我看到裡面也沒有啊所以變成是說 你大聲一點啊 這事要一次同仁 我們內政這邊也都是希望說我們解決不同的族群 不同的需求嘛 對不對所以也完全沒有 所以現在說要解凍 裡面完全也沒有提到"},{"start":3194.851,"end":3217.201,"text":"所以說也沒有說明沒有提到這樣子的話就是變成族群歧視了只是說內政的工作而已這是誤會我跟委員報告一下我們有跟您的辦公室聯絡是要去當面來做說明但是您的辦公室很體恤我們這一段時間比較忙所以只要我們提書面"},{"start":3218.001,"end":3221.262,"text":"書面也沒有啊 你說體系體系現在我沒有 現在是要來到我辦公室 現在也沒有看到啊報告委員 有新聞啊沒有看到詳細的內容就你關心的問題 我們已經有新聞沒有詳細 就是我要的就是選務人員各縣市有配各個縣市的投票所"},{"start":3243.348,"end":3243.89,"text":"配多少人我們現在因為人那麼多有很多人發生的就是"},{"start":3250.472,"end":3254.895,"text":"在講電話講講就進去就投票沒有關機也有被抓去還有就是這個就是問題有一些你宣傳不足還有有語言不通他也不知道怎麼去投怎麼去領票什麼的就會造成很多的這些問題產生所以說我們希望選務人員是不是有心助民再來協助在現場"},{"start":3275.171,"end":3299.103,"text":"我們希望有現場要有就是說那個選票所要有增加因為我知道說我們有姐妹也有擠破頭想要幫忙這件事情但是不是每一個縣市都有這樣子的選務人員來去幫忙在現場所以我那一天我就希望說我們是不是要說明說我們哪一個縣市有或者是說是不是可以增加這樣的選務人員來幫忙"},{"start":3304.327,"end":3319.307,"text":"對就是在現場來協助才不會說有的人拿身份證說要上新聞就看到有人就是因為不懂被抓了所以他們說最好不要去投不懂不要去投所以我們就被減少這樣子的就是參與這樣子的"},{"start":3320.829,"end":3325.333,"text":"都自己的公民權 就選舉所以我們希望的 因為現在我們有有超過30萬的新住民啊不對 我們原住民本來就是我們本地人了你還是一樣這樣子精心的去協助我們覺得很感動但是新住民他們就不是本地人 又不了解中文又不了解我們行政的程序"},{"start":3344.349,"end":3349.113,"text":"還有投票的你們都要花錢要來宣傳讓更多的人民知道你的選舉的東西了但是新住民你都沒有報告也沒有針對這一塊來去做的話是不是會產生後面更多的一個工作跟問題不是你來說明而已"},{"start":3363.746,"end":3368.009,"text":"說明一下好嗎回應一下好嗎我就這個第三個選舉的業務費我沒有我不同意解凍好不管你同不同意我還是要負責任的說明第一點就是說委員在上次委員會議所關心的這個問題我們在會後也跟您的辦公室聯絡要親自去做說明但是您的辦公室體系我們現在辦理選務很忙所以只要我們提出書面"},{"start":3393.246,"end":3420.326,"text":"而這個書面我們也已經送去了那委員如果還是認為不夠的話那就請您交代你的辦公室我們會再聯絡我們也願意再去當面做說明這是第一點第二點委員關心說我們的新住民朋友如果到了選務到了這個投卡票所蹦蹦飆飆可能要欠缺協助希望我們的新住民朋友能夠有機會擔任選務人員"},{"start":3421.767,"end":3445.821,"text":"我跟委員報告我每一次的全國性的選舉我都會到全國各縣市去參加我們新住民朋友的活動我去參加活動主要的目的在什麼地方鼓勵他們來參與我們的選務工作做我們的選務工作人員"},{"start":3446.721,"end":3452.525,"text":"那也有相當的成效今天我臨時沒有辦法數據給委員那會後我們會把這個數據我們有統計來給委員做個參考不過預算還是請您支持啦那個徐委員請"},{"start":3467.086,"end":3494.716,"text":"主席還有李主委我想請教一下就是有關你的解凍報告的第四頁關於選舉業務我們凍結1507萬元是針對不在籍投票這個部分喔那因為今年的這個因為我知道中選會現在是希望推動的是公民投票的不在籍投票嘛但是因為修法沒有通過所以今年的公投8月23公投也不會辦理不在籍投票是嗎"},{"start":3495.516,"end":3512.321,"text":"是的所以說那這筆預算為什麼還要用呢因為我們目前凍結主要是因為因為今年根本不會辦理不在籍投票而當時你們的這個業務報告是寫說因為要辦理不在籍投票來那個祖密他現在講什麼我請我們祖密先說明一下"},{"start":3517.477,"end":3535.582,"text":"跟委員報告我們選舉業務的這個預算其實除了一般選務的推動之外它還有包括我們的資訊化的部分那另外我們辦理選務各項的講習包括我們的選務幹部人員講習"},{"start":3537.702,"end":3563.317,"text":"那這一些相關的研習活動也是在這個費用裡面那當初凍結的原因是委員對於這個不再集投票的部分有相關的這個詢問啦那目前在不再集投票相關的政策我們也做了說明那因為如果這個預算不解凍的話我們有一些基本的核心的這個資訊的一些系統"},{"start":3565.698,"end":3593.403,"text":"從這個月開始其實我們就沒辦法來一約來做付款所以也特別要拜託委員來做支持請問一下當時你們辦理不在籍投票的選務工作是有編列了多少經費我們在這個預算裡面是針對就是說研議研議相關的制度的一個費用那並沒有單獨提列不在籍投票的預算"},{"start":3594.724,"end":3616.789,"text":"當時並沒有投這個列入完因為其實是我們在投票目前還沒過嘛那我也想再請教主委一個問題就是說假設我們這次的公投可以用不在籍投票的話可是今年的公投極有可能是會跟罷免同時選舉那公投可以不在籍投票但罷免不能不在籍投票那請問在選運工作上你們要怎麼處理"},{"start":3620.687,"end":3642.823,"text":"因為公投的不在籍投票也還沒有通過所以他如果一旦通過的話假如說是跟選舉一併同日投票的話當然會產生一些選務作業上的一些落差這個到底要怎麼樣去做處理我們事先也必須要有因應"},{"start":3644.305,"end":3658.424,"text":"所以我的問題就是說當你的公投只用公投所以為什麼我們要推這個不在籍投票是全面的不在籍投票就是為了預防這樣一個問題像今年的韓國選舉他們用不在籍投票你看他的投票率就高達80%"},{"start":3660.326,"end":3689.068,"text":"那台灣號稱民主燈塔所以我們如果可以全面推動不在籍投票不管我們的選舉不管是公投的選舉有沒有結合罷免的選舉或各項選舉就不會有這樣的問題否則假設我們的這個公投的不在籍投票通過了那剛好你的公投日又跟所謂的罷免是同一天的話那你在選務工作上會產生很大的問題所以這部分我是覺得我們為什麼一直希望這個推動全面的不在籍投票就是為了預防這樣的問題"},{"start":3690.677,"end":3706.766,"text":"那這個是必須要整面的 全面的來做檢討就不再急投票的制度那這個選舉 罷免 跟公投之間如何的能夠去做調配這個部分可能請中選會也要針對這個部分去做一些相關的研議我們會做研議來因應 好 謝謝好 牛召惠"},{"start":3715.934,"end":3741.606,"text":"謝謝主席我請教一下李主委這個請選委會稍微解釋一下啦反正凍結是監督的延伸嘛我們就花點時間討論政策請選委會解釋一下什麼叫移轉投票是不是以國內為限那麼以現在拉講的移轉投票也就是你本來在公民不在籍投票草案裡面去寫的這樣的一個概念它有沒有提前投票或者是郵寄投票的問題那剛剛徐理生委員其實講得也蠻好的就是說如果"},{"start":3742.866,"end":3770.842,"text":"這個公投可以但選舉不行有沒有充分的理由那第三個就是說之前我們在討論不在籍投票的時候本來中選人好像還蠻堅持就是說一定要公投先但是選舉不行用但看起來今天的書面報告好像有稍微調整就是說不管是公投也好或者是選舉也好只要立法院修正通過之後大家就會來配合辦理然後請問這個事情是真是假這三個問題請李經侯主委先要回答謝謝謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":3772.143,"end":3787.39,"text":"第一點,其實所謂不在籍投票,它是一般學理上或者是國際的制度上所謂的缺席投票裡面的一種缺席投票的方式有很多"},{"start":3788.87,"end":3811.741,"text":"相對於缺席投票,我們要說的一般像台灣現在的這個投票的方式他是必須是有投票權人在指定的投票日他親自到特定的指定的地點去投下他的選票這是我們一般的這個所謂的在即投票的方式"},{"start":3815.584,"end":3828.155,"text":"缺席投票就是一種變形它也許可以用期前的投票像這次韓國總統的大選它期前投票的時間就拉得很長它可以有特色投開票所"},{"start":3828.795,"end":3838.419,"text":"特色的投票所比如說在這個疫情期間就有人主張說你是不是應該要讓這些這個確診的人他們能夠有單獨的特色的投開票所等等"},{"start":3844.571,"end":3862.358,"text":"或者是郵寄投票郵寄投票也是學習投票的一種方式那這種種的方式裡面非常的錯綜複雜而且它的便利性或者是它的複雜性或者是它的實效性實用性都還有很多討論的空間"},{"start":3864.139,"end":3888.376,"text":"那在我們台灣的制度來講台灣的制度來講當然也有很多的這個倡議比如說有人認為說台灣是一個科技的大國那把科技的技術運用在我們的投票開票上面這個是不是應該要比其他的國家走得快一點但是所謂的用科技的方法比如說是用電子投票"},{"start":3889.377,"end":3903.292,"text":"用電子投票的話那我們所考慮到的是因為它的透明度恐怕不夠主委不好意思我打斷你一下因為我的問題其實還蠻清楚你剛剛講這些我們其實都有基本概念就我只要問說現在大家討論的叫移轉投票"},{"start":3903.993,"end":3931.332,"text":"依轉投票的這樣子的一個狀況他會不會有提前或通訊或郵寄的狀況沒有嘛我只是要釐清這件事換言之那你可不可以跟大家稍微解釋一下依轉投票的運作方式是什麼我們就針對依轉投票這件事情依轉投票主要就是說你在投票當天你因為工作的關係求學的關係甚至於包括是旅行的關係不管什麼原因你沒有辦法到你的戶籍地指定的地方去投票"},{"start":3932.412,"end":3955.949,"text":"那在這種前提之下事先透過一種登記審查的制度你可以到你可以到你指定的地方你的工作地來進行投票我們目前採的是這個方式那這個方式為什麼我們是建議先採這個方式因為不再急投票在我們國內已經有實施的經驗就是這個選務工作人員"},{"start":3959.571,"end":3975.684,"text":"阿其實就是用這種模式嘛所以這一步我們先跨出去那實施有一個成效有一個經驗之後我們再逐步的來擴大換言之如果大家討論不在籍投票不管是公投也好或選舉也好的草案如果範圍是以國內移轉投票為限的話其實中選會接受的程度會比較高嘛對不對"},{"start":3976.847,"end":3990.414,"text":"我們在選務的部分就是不敢一下子跨出去怕會亂 沒有實施的經驗移轉投票你們認為是可以跨出去的那一步對不對移轉投票那我們還是希望就是說就這個對市的公民投票先來實施"},{"start":3992.322,"end":4012.339,"text":"對事的投票或者是對人的投票它都是公民權利的行使我想它都是一樣重要那第二個那就順著這個往下問剛剛許議政委員我覺得問題問得蠻好的就是說如果公投可以但選舉不行那萬一基於節省選務成本出現了綁大選的情況之下那又會變成什麼樣的會不會反而造成複雜呢對不對而且你的書面報告裡面有寫說這個"},{"start":4015.498,"end":4038.134,"text":"修改總統副總統選舉辦法跟公職人員選罷法予以明確規範如果修正通過你也會依法修正通過內來照常執行嗎所以他其實是做得到的嗎通過我們就通過的話就做得到我們相信就是說因為通過要立法院審議立法院在審議這個制度的時候一定會有完整的一個考量讓選務能夠順利的來運作好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 等我一下"},{"start":4045.353,"end":4060.711,"text":"主委我必須要說主委我必須要說通過是一件事情選務選政選務其實要分得很清楚你選務地方能不能做到這點你真的要考慮一下那個黃捷委員"},{"start":4063.157,"end":4081.79,"text":"好那因為今天現在變成要討論到底要不要支持不在籍投票這個事情那我還是要表達我的立場因為其實從去年二月到現在我都強力的主張如果真的要進行不在籍投票的討論前面有非常多重的因素我們必須要考慮"},{"start":4082.611,"end":4106.943,"text":"那剛剛其實國民黨的委員有特別拿到就是前兩週韓國的投票出來說這是一個很好的例子那我必須要說其實韓國兩週前的投票也有非常多的選票的亂象包括說有疑似有中國人在中國投票然後他們因為他們也有韓國的投票權那他們甚至是直接亮票然後拍照自拍上傳在網路上"},{"start":4108.624,"end":4132.487,"text":"那這個其實在民主國家都是嚴重的違反秘密投票以及我們基本的公民投票的原則那所以如果這些亂象沒有解決之前我都不主張應該要進行不在籍投票的討論那再加上其實台灣大家也都知道中共非常極力的想要借選台灣那不管是透過各種方式"},{"start":4132.947,"end":4153.957,"text":"所以現在我們要進行這個不在籍投票討論當然前面有必須要有國安的意識那甚至我認為台灣目前的選制已經非常的穩定如果真的要貿然開放真的不可不慎那所以其實剛剛他們不斷的講說為什麼投是可以投人不行"},{"start":4154.577,"end":4165.171,"text":"那投人當然這個就嚴重的影響到台灣的基本的民主制度啊我們民主制度走這麼久了更何況現在中共借選都已經是這麼明目張膽了那我們要討論這麼重要的議題難道不需要前面有任何的國安的層次的討論嗎"},{"start":4172.441,"end":4195.594,"text":"所以我覺得在這邊還是主張不要貿然開放不在即投票再加上大家過去都已經討論過的這些投票的亂象更何況兩週前的韓國的例子我覺得已經是一個必須要引以為戒所以在這邊建議我們主委如果真的要進行尤其是投人的這件事情必須要更審慎的把很多國家安全的因素考慮進去好嗎"},{"start":4198.376,"end":4225.767,"text":"謝謝委員我先答覆一下就是我們的立場一直沒有...主委等一下我還沒叫你答覆那個李委員他剛剛已經接了沒關係我其實問題跟黃婕委員很類似再加上剛剛的問題還有主委你剛剛的回應你剛剛的回應是說如果經過立法院審議之後那中選會就可以辦就會依照立法院所立的這一個要怎麼樣投票"},{"start":4226.687,"end":4234.343,"text":"的方式來辦那現在立法院如果真的要討論這個問題其實就黃婕就點出重心了嘛點出重點了嘛"},{"start":4236.558,"end":4262.734,"text":"我們有沒有辦法韓國的例子就擺在眼前那我們目前台灣的選制大家都很小心到你進去裡面你會拿手機拍照嗎你進去出來投完你會投說你投給誰嗎都不會但是中國會不會如果不在即投票發生在有30萬的選票會來自中國我要先問你相不相信中國不會干涉台灣這30萬票的選票"},{"start":4265.014,"end":4282.859,"text":"那如果你相信中國不會干涉這30萬票的選票之後我們再來討論嘛我相信大部分的人都會認為中國絕對會來影響台灣在中國不在籍投票的這些選票嘛那所以就沒有辦法繼續討論下去嘛"},{"start":4283.419,"end":4301.724,"text":"那剛剛主委你的回答是說如果立法院經過這個討論通過了那中選會就要想辦法來做但是你沒有辦法做的是你沒有辦法去影響到中國要怎麼影響台灣的不再期投票過來的選票我想這個是你必須要更審慎的來回應這個問題的部分謝謝"},{"start":4305.455,"end":4316.398,"text":"好 主委 請回答差不多一樣 好 好 王委員那個 召委在這 我請教主委主委 在這個過程當中你有沒有看到韓國的選舉 總統的選舉的問題的存在"},{"start":4321.9,"end":4323.882,"text":"但是我覺得你剛才回應的時候,你有困難當中,但是如果你反應過,你還有發動作這樣到底你的困難,是多困難啊,這個問題主委,我覺得"},{"start":4341.217,"end":4364.735,"text":"現在一個問題就是,我們民主的國家自由的選舉,我們已經覺得很自由的選舉,如果不在一起投票的時候,會去應用大局的時候像剛才柏惠說的,如果中國用它那種用它什麼來干涉我們的選舉主委,那真的很難耶"},{"start":4369.458,"end":4373.26,"text":"不一定整個國家都可以用這個機會選舉來干預就好了所以主委我覺得每一項國家的進步"},{"start":4383.359,"end":4390.102,"text":"投票也要進步是沒錯的,但是你要考慮到有的事已經變成事,就要讓我們聽吃就白了,更何況這可以應用到選舉的時候,我們沒有選擇,真的會很嚴重的啦,主委"},{"start":4405.165,"end":4414.599,"text":"你現在每個委員都發言那我覺得相關的讓他先回答好不好不然他等一下那麼多他怎麼 主委怎麼回答"},{"start":4415.612,"end":4438.55,"text":"沒有 我是同樣的問題 對不起我是覺得在場的委員們 我們應該要尊重行政人員的回應那當然你對行政人員的回答 你可以有你的看法但是呢 千萬不要去限制我們的所謂的行政人員 他應該要有的表達因為他畢竟是全民的行政人員 這是第一個我要談的問題"},{"start":4439.851,"end":4455.556,"text":"我們要尊重一下那當然立法院會不會通過那立法委員的投票也是所謂民主制度的一環嘛對不對那大家一直在講民主民主民主就是什麼民主就是立法院要治法民主就是立法院就是"},{"start":4456.656,"end":4479.387,"text":"沒有 沒有 對不起 夠自願我覺得大家一定要非常的清楚知道以前黨外人是一直在講百分之百的民主百分之百的言論自由其實這是大家一定要堅持的要堅守的 對不對所謂的民主就是立法院因為投票的關係選到了這些立法委員立法委員就是有立法修法的責任跟義務"},{"start":4480.427,"end":4499.093,"text":"那麼當立法委員人數多的時候他就是代表全民的意識這是一個我希望大家能夠遵守這個所謂的民主選舉制度第二個我覺得不在即投票事實上不僅僅只是大家所擔心的還有原住民的不在即投票大家都一直把它拉到成就是說好像是變成是國外的"},{"start":4501.954,"end":4524.68,"text":"那我們所謂的不在局投票我們也有原住民的不在局投票的問題這是第一個第二個我想講的就是大家一直很擔心的問題就是說大陸方面可能會於這個投票會有一些它的干擾請問一下現在難道沒有干擾嗎你們所擔心的現在不存在嗎那對啊所以啊"},{"start":4526.124,"end":4550.154,"text":"所以啊 所以我的認為就是說為什麼那麼不要有自信心呢菲律賓有那麼多的外籍人員在台灣那菲律賓現在的選舉也是非常的激烈難道菲律賓裡面的人難道他也不會去影響他在外面的人嗎我覺得我們的人要對自己要有信心如果我們執政得很好"},{"start":4550.954,"end":4559.66,"text":"如果我們執政的很好 我們的人是對的不管你在說什麼 我還是要投票給他 是不是就好像以前我們的政黨輪替一樣嘛大家以前都認為國民黨是一個戒嚴 一個比較不好的但是呢 因為人民的 全民的力量認為我要政黨輪替"},{"start":4569.426,"end":4586.357,"text":"我要政黨人體所以我必須要換掉你們不要去低估人民的意志好不好那麼沒有信心我要講就是你們可以有你們的意見但是呢我覺得我覺得我沒有表達我們意見的權利這個就是所謂的民主 謝謝"},{"start":4592.808,"end":4616.793,"text":"謝謝主席我想我也是直接講完那個主委再一次回答就可以了啦因為我想大家講的是同一件事情我要表達的是這樣剛剛我們這個各自委員都已經表達的立場不過我是想提醒委員們就是我基於同事之間我只是想說我們在討論的時候不在即投票這五個字其實包含的種類非常多種"},{"start":4617.913,"end":4631.584,"text":"包括了可以是高金委員剛剛提到的原住民也可以有不在籍投票但他意味的很有可能是只是在國內之間在台灣可控制的統治範圍之內我們"},{"start":4634.546,"end":4654.696,"text":"自己之間的移轉投票從某一個里到另外一個里從到哪個地方到哪個地方也就是剛剛就是劉許廷劉委員在講的主委主委您這邊是不是表示如果我們在談的不在籍投票只是國內的移轉投票你就比較有機會實施其實劉委員剛剛也講到了移轉投票"},{"start":4655.456,"end":4669.097,"text":"所以不在籍投票的範圍是最大的後面有這個國內的因為投票便利性的移轉投票也有從族群別去考量的原住民籍的移轉投票這都是不一樣的狀況"},{"start":4671.4,"end":4693.062,"text":"那我覺得如果有委員支持的不在籍投票是包含台灣統治法也就是我們認為就是中國啦其他全世界海外地方中華民國以外的這個其他地方中華民國台灣以外其他地方的不在籍投票可以在國外投票剛剛又舉了菲律賓又舉了韓國說國外都可以做到為什麼台灣不能做"},{"start":4693.763,"end":4715.558,"text":"如果有委員支持的不在籍投票是這種的版本那我覺得就是明確的說我要的不在籍投票是這種版本大家來辯論這個國安的問題我們可能就要考慮的更多那如果說沒有沒有我的不在籍投票只是在國內那你也公開大方的講清楚說我的版本就是只是這樣我們就這個範圍來討論大家也可以互相辯證從選務選政這些大家來討論不要一下子"},{"start":4723.263,"end":4729.388,"text":"在說不在籍的時候那有委員提出國安問題就說我們其實只是為了便利性又變成是移轉投票那等到講移轉投票的時候又開始在其他委員會以外討論時就說我們這個團體我們這個黨啦其實主張的反而是說基於全世界的民主性這個應該是哪裡哪裡海外的也都可以投票我覺得這樣會亂了會失焦那大家彼此之間可能也許上也會有比較多的衝突這不是一個委員會"},{"start":4751.727,"end":4770.713,"text":"適當有效率的討論方式也會誤解委員之間彼此的意思所以你主張的不在即投票到底是什麼我覺得應該先講清楚以後選委會才能就該委員的問題來回答精確回答並且大家委員會我們之間才能夠做準確的討論以上是我的建議謝謝"},{"start":4772.913,"end":4789.199,"text":"好 謝謝主席謝謝主席我想剛剛很多委員都提到就是可能會很怕很多的選舉亂象會產生那當然其實以我提出的版本我就提移轉投票也就是說在國內的移轉投票所以說如果"},{"start":4789.879,"end":4804.471,"text":"比如說選委會這邊 中選會這邊認為在辦理這個不再去投票會有很多的亂象那我們可以先從移轉投票開始這也是我提出的版本那所以我覺得這個部分對啊 都是可以減少不再去投票的一個亂象謝謝好 大家都是一樣的來 那個麥委員不是"},{"start":4817.423,"end":4829.541,"text":"我覺得這時候不要再講這種,你們故意再去扭曲我們就是移轉投票嘛,那不再投票也是移轉投票嘛來麥委員先講"},{"start":4832.674,"end":4858.188,"text":"好 謝謝主席 剛才我們蘇委員有說誰的版本 我們民眾黨的版本就是移轉投票在台灣 在台灣 在台灣 很重要 我想上次所以就是不再急投票 我們也是都在台灣所以我們的版本是在台灣 我們限於台灣所以我們希望支持我們的版本是在台灣的"},{"start":4859.309,"end":4862.311,"text":"我們移轉投票是因為為了讓我們的年輕人啊或者我們要在外面工作的各縣市工作的人就回來的時候不方便或者沒辦法請假所以我們關於這樣我們就是移轉投票的部分不在籍投票的部分是用字是在國內我們台灣的國內你人在國內你才能投你在國外你是台灣人不能投的我們的版本是這樣"},{"start":4889.846,"end":4905.355,"text":"對 我們完全是在國內喔 完全國內百分之百 這個就是要請大家支持我們是百分之百 為了大家我們在台灣的台灣人的便利這個是百分之百的 請大家多多支持 謝謝好 來 我們先請那個主委"},{"start":4914.452,"end":4927.539,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝各位委員的指教各位委員所提的各項指教我們都細心的聆聽而且要虛心的檢討所以我一點都沒有受到拘束的感覺"},{"start":4928.92,"end":4950.267,"text":"那第二點要報告就是說其實剛剛委員對於所謂的不在即投票提出各方面的主張或者是提出各種疑慮這也就是為什麼不在即投票在我們國內爭論了幾十年到現在為止我們還沒有辦法跨出這一步"},{"start":4951.087,"end":4970.596,"text":"很重要的一個原因所以這個立法是必然的方向但是立法也不是一觸可擊可能社會必須要有更多的討論來形成共識這是第二點說明第三點說明就這個政府部門的這個策略我們認為"},{"start":4974.878,"end":5002.728,"text":"公民的這個投票權是應該要保障但是選務的穩定選務的正確也是非常重要非常重要的考量所以基於我們選務的經驗我們認為對市的公民投票可以先於對人的這個選舉投票來開始研議實施那在不在籍投票的種種方式裡面我們已經"},{"start":5004.248,"end":5024.993,"text":"有經驗的這個移轉投票又可以先於其他可能的選項來優先實施所以公投先於選舉那這個移轉先於其他各種方式這個政策立場到現在為止沒有做任何的改變這是我的一個補充"},{"start":5028.374,"end":5053.927,"text":"那另外有一點剛剛大家也提到是有一些顧慮啦那這些顧慮其實也不是無中生有我們從近幾年來世界各地的選舉尤其是在2024年全世界六七十個國家他們進行大選的改選那在這個選務的過程裡面各國也都遭受到或多或少外力的一個干預"},{"start":5055.171,"end":5068.524,"text":"外國勢力的借選這是一個事實不是奇人悠天台灣會不會呢?台灣會台灣有沒有呢?有因為我們每次在全國性大選的時候賠都賣很多錢"},{"start":5071.427,"end":5095.221,"text":"隨時要去注意隨時要去注意可能任何外力的干預尤其是牽涉到我們選務的錯假訊息資安的部分我們都提高警覺所以這一點可能在研討相關的選制的時候基於國家安全的考量我們都希望在立法院裡面能夠有更多的關注以上我的報告還有沒有委員"},{"start":5100.12,"end":5100.961,"text":"沒有齁那你先"},{"start":5110.066,"end":5137.805,"text":"好 沒關係來 各位委員都講其實我覺得中選會很簡單嘛我們的不在體投票有分了很多種啦那你移轉投票其實是台灣現在最能夠做到的啦而且移轉投票你人還是要到投開票所啦對不對我們現在能做的這個是最簡單的那為什麼公投可以公投可以先來示範因為公投沒有人"},{"start":5138.926,"end":5164.381,"text":"人齁 他可能一張選票要印要印十幾 有十幾個人頭然後還有跨選區然後呢 你如果公投是全國一致他的選票不用有很複雜啦其實這個很簡單的問題 就這樣這樣你再講 我相信大家就比較清楚嘛 對不對好 那個麥委員的問題麻煩請主委回答他一下"},{"start":5165.444,"end":5174.35,"text":"就新住民的投票比照原住民我要明確跟你就是要拜託你明確的說明第一個新住民選務人員培訓就是在各個縣市你是如何去做怎麼落實的我希望這個是要明確要落實第一個新住民的選務人員各縣市的選票的選票手你如何去分配有多少"},{"start":5195.524,"end":5200.887,"text":"多少名額有多少人怎麼去分配的這個也是要落實第三個針對新住民現在60萬人已經有三十幾萬有身份證的人不管是新住民有身份證沒有身份證即將有身份證我們這60萬人你怎麼樣去做就是選舉的宣傳讓他們了解他們的公民權這個也是要如何去做在各個縣市去落實不是在這邊講一講就算了"},{"start":5225.499,"end":5233.605,"text":"我希望是真正的是有數據有實際在做怎麼做達成這樣子的一個我希望是要詳細一點謝謝助民包括新住民有關選務的宣導我們都做得相當的深入那委員所指教的這些問題你看是需要我們再到委員辦公室來做說明或者是我們提供書面的資料公務員來做參考"},{"start":5256.67,"end":5273.806,"text":"我是覺得是兩個都要因為我們希望不只是說要幫你這個業務落實而已不是說我們需要要做什麼我希望真的是落實讓我們每一個人在台灣都有收到就是公民的權利我們照辦謝謝還有沒有委員那沒有的話"},{"start":5283.963,"end":5309.91,"text":"我就直接處理了好不好好請問各位委員是否均同意動之同意好謝謝均同意動之提報院會那本次會議到此結束現在散會好大家都沒有意見了沒有意見對啊同意動之啊"}]}},{"id":"162489","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162489","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fa5123de01b0f1e364381c39c314819361b7f484ece6bb10f106c82363fbb529205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:35:51 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毫無事實根據一樣啊 到今天有道歉嗎到今天有道歉嗎說柯文哲在LINE 在微信有把妹的對話 非常露骨我很好奇 這樣的新聞要一起分論嗎要視聽大眾付錢嗎我不知道"},{"start":617.506,"end":633.536,"text":"我們作為民意代表正確的事情我們一定堅持到底與此同時我希望台灣的新聞真正走向專業獨立自主就像每一個新聞人的靈魂一樣"},{"start":634.693,"end":650.03,"text":"我要報導真實我要發掘弊案我要扮演第四權的角色我要作為掌權者最佳的防腐劑我相信這是絕大多數台灣人民共同支持的事情在邁向這個目標媒體新聞報導有價付費"},{"start":657.228,"end":672.622,"text":"讓我們基層的新聞工作者能夠得到更好的待遇這樣子的方向台灣民眾黨黨團不管遭遇到什麼樣的客觀環境遭遇到什麼樣子的對待我們一樣會堅持理念支持到底謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"162488","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162488","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fab9cdd3758afd8c42381c39c314819361b7f484ece6bb10f1cbfbb2dae5f8c4225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:10:35 - 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我先回一下剛才劉昌德教授所講的 就說希望用基金的制度那我的提案是用溢價 用強制溢價的方式那我跟大家提供一下 就是因為我們都持續關心所以呢 述發部呢 有回覆我的辦公室的資料 當然有關於這個媒體溢價的部分"},{"start":69.29,"end":95.155,"text":"不管是基金啊或者是用強制溢價其實速發部到目前為止都是反對的一個立場那特別是在基金制度的部分他的回覆是說這個基金制度模式需要穩定的收入來源他說課證數位稅恐重複課稅而且現在美國政府保護美國科技產業可能招致貿易關稅報復所以現在採取基金的話"},{"start":98.556,"end":118.05,"text":"非常有可能授予包含我們的政府抒發部甚至美國政府的一個所謂的因為現在大家都知道在貿易戰所以我們在這個部分呢我們還是朝這個以強制溢價來做進行免得又被他們橫身肢解找到一些理由"},{"start":119.091,"end":143.444,"text":"因為剛才那個主席跟我講說大概三分鐘所以呢有關於大家所剛才提到的部分我這邊就不贅述包含就是台灣的數位廣告事實上大部分絕大部分都是被這個國外的這些社群平台所拿走那另外我覺得我特別提一下"},{"start":144.344,"end":154.736,"text":"就是在這樣的一個非常被壓榨的一個狀況之下其實台灣的媒體已經走入了一個其實非常不正常那麼"},{"start":156.943,"end":177.568,"text":"以美島電子報在今年4月28號所發布的民調認為政治力介入媒體的受訪者高達70.8%所以連台灣大多數的民眾都知道我們的媒體被高度的政治力介入何以置之"},{"start":179.568,"end":197.828,"text":"我想我自己也是媒體出身 媒體都會希望有一個公平獨立的一個從業的環境但是呢 大家知道媒體生存越困難 它就越仰賴政府的媒體採購政府媒體採購越多 政治力介入就越深"},{"start":198.729,"end":215.078,"text":"政治力介入越深媒體的公信力就越低媒體公信力越低台灣的民主就越向下沉淪我相信所有不管來自於學界或業界的媒體朋友都可以同意我剛才所說的"},{"start":215.771,"end":227.597,"text":"所以如何去改變除了讓我們的媒體專業應該要有合理的利潤也是在拯救說台灣媒體公信力不能被這樣看輕不是嗎然後在這邊"},{"start":231.579,"end":260.688,"text":"像無國界記者組織也指出但他也指出其實很多國家的媒體都面臨這樣的一個生存越來越惡劣的一個環境所以他也提到台灣媒體普遍為追求利潤所苦也造成公民沒有辦法獲得客觀的資訊這是現在的現存的狀況因為只有一點點時間那我來趕快跟大家報告一下"},{"start":261.388,"end":285.828,"text":"在我們的修法裡面我剛才特別報告我們是以強制溢價為主但是呢未來在我們討論裡面我們可能會有以上的提案以下的提案那也歡迎所有今天與會者如果您關心或者覺得這樣的一個方向可能會造成你的重大損失或者是你覺得這不合理的地方也隨時歡迎跟我們辦公室聯絡好我們在"},{"start":289.051,"end":312.464,"text":"我在原來提案裡面我們可能會做一些修正動議的部分是譬如說剛才提到有關於AI大家都知道現在的這個AI生成模式其實也大量使用我們媒體的資料它是未來的趨勢那我們當時在提案的時候沒有把這一部分納入考慮所以這個部分可能是會在我們未來的在修正動議裡面再做把它納入"},{"start":317.967,"end":343.163,"text":"另外一個就是那有很多人認為強制議價小型媒體就很慘啊他怎麼去議價呢可能連在台灣數一數二或者都已經大家耳熟能詳的媒體都認為沒有能力所以呢我們未來也應該給小型媒體做聯合議價的一個空間那這當然他就要排除一些現行的一個相關的法規那另外的部分呢就是"},{"start":344.804,"end":372.983,"text":"當媒體有分潤的時候那麼我們也希望提出一定的比例能夠直接落實到我們的真正的媒體從業者就是第一線的工作人員讓他們也可以分享到這個分潤的成果所以以下呢是我們可能在未來修法進入直接修法我們會有一些再修正動議的方向在這邊也先跟大家做一些預告"},{"start":375.024,"end":402.992,"text":"謝謝大家今天來參加公聽會也希望大家的一個力量支持我們能夠在這個立法上面能夠加速腳步那麼至少在國民黨團還有民眾黨團我們會盡量我們兩個黨團因為現在的我們的版本不一樣但是我們有絕大的誠意一起來討論出一個大家都比較可以接受的一個版本加速修法的進度以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":404.667,"end":404.69,"text":"啊"}]}},{"id":"162487","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162487","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fa04b6efd14ea16f15381c39c314819361b7f484ece6bb10f1cbfbb2dae5f8c4225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:28:14 - 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我看到很多好朋友都是在新聞界非常資深還有很多這個學者 今天產業界代表也來那 請給大家報告一下 上媒體議價法這類火車事實上是已經開動了今天我看很多人是有點擔心啦 包括今天台灣新聞協界還有產業跟專業團體跟學生 他們現在串聯"},{"start":32.819,"end":59.553,"text":"今天發表聯合聲明要求要拒絕這個平台剝削然後這個搶救新聞產業 我有跟大家講事實上媒體溢價這個已經最近這幾年上市一直在往前推動當中那我跟大家報告幾個好消息 之前我們台灣民眾黨已經辦過公聽會了 更重要的在這個國審安排之下我們也辦過委員會的這個審查了我先報告幾個比較重要的好消息 今天"},{"start":60.493,"end":84.766,"text":"三大主管機關都在NCC還有這個數位部數位發展部還有這個公平會我要先讚美公平會公平會本來我們以前在開會的時候啊都擔心說他是主力不是助力可是公平會的主委來這邊還有在公聽會他們非常積極認識他們做了兩個事情很重要第一個在我們媒體議價的這個過程裡面本來擔心有壟斷的問題對不對"},{"start":87.768,"end":104.181,"text":"他們主委很清楚的說 這個條文裡面怎麼避免這個 他們會去幫忙就是消極面他們會去幫忙 更重要的他說積極面 我們去議價的時候 公平會要怎麼幫忙條文訂清楚 他們會全力幫忙來 我們趴家垂涎 我們要謝謝這個 要非常感謝這個公平會然後另外呢 剛剛這個記者協會有在提啊"},{"start":110.046,"end":128.823,"text":"最近事實上已經有某些媒體 事實上已經跟那個國火跟臉書他們都有一些 已經有些合作嘛 對不對那事實上在分證那個過程裡面 那個演算確實一直出了問題今天那個NCC的主委在現場 你那天有答應我嘛 對不對要去解決這個問題 去跟他們談清楚 好不好不能夠今天分證是1000萬 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對不對"},{"start":243.1,"end":259.706,"text":"他們怕基金會影響到所以上次有一個初步的討論如果要跟時間賽跑要儘快完成這個三賭的話就是先不要用基金可是我們透過強制溢價強制溢價剛剛有這個代表在講說你在擔心什麼館長那些都不是問題啦"},{"start":260.706,"end":289.715,"text":"不會是問題你自己的流量過你有實力我們這個議價強制議價是有兩個很重要的個別是可以議價的你流量過了你有影響力你本來就可以議價聯合辦可以去啊自由時報也可以去啊對不對你是TBS你也可以去啊三立也可以去個別可以去這是一個第二個我們團體也可以去就在授權在這個法令上面是個別可以去團體也可以去是多管齊下的所以老實講這個沒有問題那政府的角色是什麼"},{"start":290.955,"end":316.212,"text":"趕快跟立法院合作第一個我們把法律的授權訂出來就是有強制議價這個授權要先訂出來這是今天開公聽會一個非常重要的我們把這個強制議價的法源把它訂出來然後進一步各個部會要怎麼去幫大家所以今天是會有進度的好不好大家不要太擔心那我們蠻期待的我們聚焦在剛剛我提的各個部會已經提出他們的"},{"start":317.313,"end":326.841,"text":"提出他們的意見了而且看起來是正面的那各個黨團也都提出了解決方案了如果透過更透過大家今天這個很多的專業的意見盡量把它收攏我相信很快後期有機會我們這個會期可以再努力把它盡快通過好不好好 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"162486","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162486","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fa92ced9340e4c8265d0f1804948a25d261310761e9d241d7794a7d0e73f209c415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:42:43 - 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病毒法以後呢真的來透過ACP 簽署AD等等來達到這樣的目標那大家也討論過非常多的原因包括說"},{"start":180.453,"end":194.828,"text":"可敬性不夠這是第一點那第二點呢就是這個諮商費如果是自費的時候的確這個諮商費3000元對一般的民眾來講他的負擔還是一筆重大的負擔"},{"start":195.789,"end":218.789,"text":"那另外就是民眾的觀念其實還不太容易接受即使大家很努力的去推廣這樣的概念可是很多的民眾還是比較無法去討論說為什麼在健康的時候要跟我討論死亡這個當然這個是需要大家共同繼續在努力第四個其實困境最大的可能就是"},{"start":219.569,"end":240.155,"text":"我們的這個要件規定的非常的嚴格他必須要有醫師必須要有其他的醫療人力不管是護理師也好心理師也好社工師也好那另外就是我們要求除了來簽署講要表達意願的這個個人以外還需要包括他的家人"},{"start":241.275,"end":264.594,"text":"就整體的這個門檻就拉得非常非常的高所以其實我們期待就是如何能夠去改善這些狀況那改善這些狀況的話基本上就可以從改善政策跟改善法規如何能夠讓他的處理可以更周全那在政策方面我們當然也理解就是要能夠提高諮商的可敬性"},{"start":265.635,"end":284.301,"text":"還有如果可以的話在醫療團隊的部分能不能夠納入大家醫計劃當然擴大健保給付現在剛剛次長有跟大家報告目前也有往這個方向在做處置當然強化這個政策的宣傳也是很重要的部分"},{"start":285.021,"end":310.246,"text":"所以我們針對這個諮詢會的負擔如果從原來的需要自費改變成有條件情形之下能夠納入健保給付的確可以能夠有機會來把這個量能可以做放寬那事實上5月1號針對65歲以上的有重大傷病或者是參與這個家庭醫師整合性照護計畫或全人全社區計畫65歲以上多重慢性病的病人"},{"start":311.527,"end":328.68,"text":"預估會達到這個180萬人這個是目前已經可以持續在增加這個量能服務的機會那當然在這個過程裡面需要更多的醫療機構來協助依照現在的法定要求之下目前也有到達將近300家的醫療機構"},{"start":330.982,"end":350.089,"text":"可以來提供這樣的服務那在法規的部分我認為需要兩個部分一個就是針對於在這個不同的層次來處理的話有關於目前在這個討論病毒法同時我們也希望衛生部能夠持續研議執法修正的可能性"},{"start":350.749,"end":365.163,"text":"因為我們知道相關法規裡面其實有定了執法那個執法的話可以將育立一族的智商納到大家醫或社區醫療的照護企劃裡面希望能夠在短時間就能夠透過這個行政部門先行"},{"start":366.964,"end":395.019,"text":"讓這個諮商的可進線跟負擔可負擔的部分可以得到好的一個幫助那當然最重要還是針對病毒法本身進行修法那這個修法我剛剛提過只有在上一次在主條討論的時候是只有三條得到共識那不過後來也跟孫老師謝謝孫老師能夠有機會讓我們多表達我們在修法當中的一些想法跟所要擔心的部分"},{"start":395.319,"end":420.268,"text":"那針對部分條文的修正裡面第十條的醫療為人代理人相關規範的修正跟第四條新增臨床醫療過程當中書面表示的意思這部分事實上我覺得如果能夠透過這樣的修法來改善目前實務的這些面臨的問題的話其實我們是非常認同而且會希望能夠朝這個方向來做調理"},{"start":420.968,"end":439.91,"text":"那我想到目前為止今天早上大家很討論重點之一就是第九條如何能夠讓這個諮商機構除了剛剛所提到我們法律所規範的這個要件的同時能不能夠做這方面的調整"},{"start":440.39,"end":458.736,"text":"那其實早上聽到的意見也都蠻多元的所以大家也知道這樣的調整一定是有它的優點那當然也會面臨在調整以後是不是有其他的困難或困境包括量跟這個"},{"start":460.356,"end":487.765,"text":"量能當中如何得到好的平衡那尤其在品質的部分如何能夠把關我們也都了解其實醫療真的是有它的複雜性也有它的在面臨當中不同的階段會碰到不同的困境包括如何做好的適合個人的選擇其實我自己在照顧癌症病人那麼多年的經驗裡面"},{"start":489.185,"end":512.835,"text":"在不同的階段病人的選擇是完全不一樣那我們這部法案裡面其實有包括五大種可以做這個選擇的這些疾病對癌症的所有說明我有把握我可以讓所有的病人跟他的家人知道當他離癌以後碰到困境他應該有哪一些的選項"},{"start":514.156,"end":538.035,"text":"可是癌症病人以外的人其實我並沒有那麼有把握我的意思是在說我們即使這一個很專業的一個醫師其實有時候面臨這樣的困境的時候都會很困難的讓這個病人做決定的話那如果沒有受過完整的醫療專業那尤其剛剛很多家庭醫學"},{"start":538.735,"end":567.195,"text":"的這些專家還有神經科內科像這樣的表達我們也知道其實有他一定的困境那這樣的困境是不是其他的團隊的同仁他們同時也能夠掌握到這個醫療需求這個就是我們在當初討論的時候如何能夠在這個量能增加的同時這個品質如何能夠去維持這個其實我相信也是在五年前提出這個"},{"start":568.836,"end":594.331,"text":"病株好的时候为什么要把那个要件定的那么高是有它一定的道理所以我们现在如果要扩大这样的这个团队的服务模式真的要非常非常的注意未来在执行当中可能碰到的困境或者是前后带来的问题那如何去解决现在的困境当然如果能够在现有的这个条件之下把不同的机构的资源能够拉在一起"},{"start":595.131,"end":609.704,"text":"相信至少未來如果我們先透過這個模式來執行應該不久也許一年也許兩年我們就可以透過這個目前的法令之下所規範的這個"},{"start":612.165,"end":638.283,"text":"團隊運作希望可以有非常多的這些執行的經驗那為我們未來再提供如何做這個病毒法做後續修正或者是後續討論的時候重要的基礎所以我們很期待就是有更多的討論同時我們也必須要去累積我們所謂的臨床的這些給我們可以提供好的數據來作為討論的基礎"},{"start":641.925,"end":663.872,"text":"現在的醫療都強調所謂的Evidence 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不知道啊"},{"start":217.162,"end":240.684,"text":"可以嗎 可以 好 那是講清楚 跟外面講清楚喔可以來申請上櫃 是吧 上市也可以 是吧那財務要全部透明喔 財務要全部公開喔我想這是第一點我要強調的那第二點我要強調的還是在於 還是危害到這個核心裡面如果認定它是一個資產 目前來講的話"},{"start":242.682,"end":261.322,"text":"交易商 交易是不屬於你們管啦是屬於經濟部商業署在管的啊跟他們登記嘛 是不是現在不是你們管的喔現在不是你們管的喔 不是喔什麼不是 你要講洗錢方式嘛我是講說 他本身來講是不是跟你登記 不是嘛是不是跟你登記"},{"start":277.319,"end":281.404,"text":"所以我強調的是這個能不能把我們的虛擬貨幣"},{"start":287.03,"end":298.537,"text":"這個當作一個虛擬資產假如它當作一個資產那影響就非常大了影響就非常大了包括我們的公職人員財產申報這個比特幣要不要申報虛擬貨幣要不要申報要不要申報不知道喔你們這個法規定這個法一過以後是不是就要申報"},{"start":313.289,"end":323.424,"text":"然後以後有關的東西一切當然你們都是洗錢洗錢所以你們要強調是洗錢那我現在強調是說如果讓它正常化"},{"start":325.168,"end":343.373,"text":"如果讓它正常化不要說只有洗錢因為洗錢還是比較偏離屬於房幣這一部分我們說這是一個市場而且這個市場一直在不斷地在漲包括現在因為在川普任內他一直在推這個東西這未來怎麼發展不知道"},{"start":344.153,"end":369.322,"text":"所以我覺得金管會可以認真去思考如何因應這個虛擬貨幣的市場交易越來越大的情況之下怎麼樣納管你們現在目前來講都只有納管一個洗錢只有一個洗錢就是洗錢之口就集中在這兩部分其他部分沒有那我說其他部分能不能及早規劃了好不好就是個人的見解請各位指教 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Act這個程序性的表決讓穩定幣來建立這個聯邦宇宙的雙軌間裡而日本也將穩定幣納入了金融法規也希望能夠做相關的推動南韓則提出Digital Asset Basic Act希望能夠規範韓元穩定幣的發行並且積極的推動"},{"start":72.605,"end":98.756,"text":"以及ETF的開放甚至比特幣相關的一些推進他們也在討論當然我想各地的條件不同台灣也應該會有我們自己的本地模式但是如果我們此時猶豫就將失去全球金融發展的佈局機會甚至有可能被邊緣化因此對於虛擬資產服務法我希望能夠提出以下幾點重點主張第一個"},{"start":99.736,"end":126.036,"text":"比特幣不僅是國家儲備的數位黃金在地緣政治風險的影響之下個人也應該要增加金融韌性和數位自主儘管會限制相關現金來購買虛擬貨幣儘管我們理解目的良善但是卻有可能扼殺良性的使用場景和環境例如過去2016年起其實台灣的便利店就是我們的世界之光台灣之光"},{"start":127.028,"end":155.387,"text":"全世界都知道在台灣是一個擁抱先進思維的地方但是現在這個機會卻消失了我建議應該有條件的保留現金與虛擬資產的交換空間第二點希望持續的重視數位自主不應該過度的限制私藥託管跟服務的提供者就像保險箱公司不應該納入銀行法監管一樣我們希望大家都能夠理解第三點"},{"start":156.428,"end":171.015,"text":"支持將數位貨幣適量的納入主權儲備進行更多的討論以多元化的儲備、戰略的儲備以及金融監理開放的態度去面對國際金融市場的波動"},{"start":171.815,"end":189.202,"text":"同時建立友善並且具產業導向的課稅制度我們也希望對於相關的虛擬貨幣的法規以及相關的稅務的討論希望以鼓勵創新鼓勵產業鼓勵個人金融多元化為主要依歸"},{"start":190.422,"end":205.467,"text":"同時第四點我們也建議希望監理能夠持續的從先制率後塌率在立法的階段式策略來進行一定要兼顧市場的活力當然我們也要顧到民眾的安全"},{"start":206.411,"end":224.345,"text":"第五点我们希望金管会积极的推动稳定币的发展与国际接轨避免数位经济边缘化近期我们看到USDC的发行商Circle在美国顺利的IPO受到市场的欢迎这是一个例子"},{"start":225.166,"end":239.649,"text":"同時發展良好的本地穩定幣也可以平衡實體世界經濟可能在現在的現狀之下發生突變或者失衡增進我們台灣的金融韌性跟主權"},{"start":241.513,"end":261.605,"text":"第六点我们希望还是要来讨论比特币现货的ETF鼓励法人与个人都能够参与这样的一个国际市场金融业则可以转型有更多的创新我们既有的平台服务业者也希望能够让他们发行更多元更创新的商品"},{"start":262.591,"end":275.328,"text":"技術上台灣是擁有國家級的加密儲備與私藥管理的能力完全具備競爭力不應該顧慮過多而錯失良機我也希望能夠支持金管會來擴大虛擬資產"},{"start":277.951,"end":293.307,"text":"數位金融創新的人力量能同時在薪資上我們也希望我們的行政院就算不能協助相關的人才對企業界但是也希望能夠盡力跟上各國監理機構的薪資水平"},{"start":294.164,"end":322.34,"text":"最後國際數位金融的時代來臨我們台灣一定要有自信不要害怕連結世界台灣應該要把手伸出去以前瞻的思維才有辦法果斷的領先才有機會成為我們金管會希望能夠共同打造的亞洲數位金融的領航者一起為青年的世代AI的世代甚至人類要成為跨星際物種的下一個世代一起打造追夢創新的"},{"start":323.961,"end":328.203,"text":"蘇維沃土 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古有黃金 今有虛幣來比比看 黃金跟虛幣哪個勝出可以置物交易 黃金可以 過去可以 虛幣現在可以我們說要投資增值 黃金可以 虛幣可以要裝飾炫富 哇沒有看過把冷錢包掛在身上的 黃金可以 虛幣不可以但是說到記名黃金沒有記名 虛幣打個問號才對然後傳送 黃金不好攜帶 也不好運送 虛幣很好用所以"},{"start":45.505,"end":64.939,"text":"當我們還在討論虛幣怎麼管理的時候詐騙集團洗錢先用虛幣來做這是今天的新聞往下看那到底我們今天從黃幣的角度來考慮虛幣未來的管理的時候主管機關是誰過去主管機關一直不能產生我們看到法幣呢銀行是金管匯管"},{"start":66.231,"end":83.877,"text":"那如果是債券、證券,它的屬性有價值波動的有價平振好了,虛幣不管是記名不記名的它有序號,也跟前面的債券、證券很像因此好像目前變成是證期局作為主管器官跑不掉了,就是你證期局往下看"},{"start":84.577,"end":99.181,"text":"好那麼證券商虛幣跟三資業者都要KYC我們都知道最近呢我們在遇到這個金錢財務犯罪的時候我們最關心的就是這個財務是誰的所有權人是誰成為我們追查"},{"start":101.894,"end":119.245,"text":"銀錢犯罪的一個重要的過程所以呢KYC就是第一步那麼目前我們的法令很清楚最後就會簡單講過券商管理規則三十四條三十五條之一洗錢房制法第六條還有這個相關的打擊滯恐辦法的第三條都說包括我們"},{"start":120.927,"end":146.724,"text":"虛擬資產地方支付呢都要負有確認戶客身份的最終責任好那我們來看一下過去怎麼做之前我也提過今天再重複的提一次怎麼樣防止人頭提供人頭戶給詐團呢因此在券商的時候交割的時候呢有KYC臨櫃的時候要確認你身份銀行開戶的時候KYC要確認你身份然後電子業者你也要經過什麼地方呢財經資訊公司財經資訊公司怎麼幫忙做KYC"},{"start":149.085,"end":153.078,"text":"怎麼做很簡單他請你開戶的時候呢你的手機號碼"},{"start":154.468,"end":183.547,"text":"你的手帳碼跟你原來留存的不一樣如果不一樣我來開戶的人跟我原來這個帳戶後面的各支的手帳碼不一樣這就馬上通報了三支有沒有虛幣有沒有沒有因為有了財經公司的把關透過一次性動態密碼這個OTP的發布我們就有辦法把KYC在前面這三個部分做起來了但是虛幣跟三支一樣目前沒有金管會要"},{"start":184.568,"end":194.605,"text":"不是金管會 因為財經支援公司是央行在管的所以央行跟金管會為了防詐這個部分幫忙加油一下好 但是接下來我們要談金管會的業務是什麼"},{"start":195.885,"end":221.065,"text":"自然能憑證最近自然能憑證被拿去當人頭使用你活該嘛你把鑰匙交給賊你家裡當頭被偷啊你自然能憑證交給別人被拿去當人頭啊有沒有防範的辦法有嘛其實一樣是自然能憑證線上開戶的時候只要通過財經資訊公司去確認這個使用自然能憑證線上開戶的人他的手機號碼你發送OTP只要不是他"},{"start":221.846,"end":249.589,"text":"就沒辦法了除非你這個自然能憑證是一個什麼是個金融的數位新生代新生兒他過去從來沒有開過戶從炸團取得他自然憑證之後就是用一個炸團的手機不然的話很容易查出來金管會不要只是停止自然能憑證的使用而要思考到怎麼樣運用現有的機制去防止自然能憑證被濫用好往下看所以我們看到加密貨幣常常被害"},{"start":251.407,"end":279.295,"text":"這個是國內國外的好那怎麼防呢往下看我們自動安全的管理法規現在預告的第十四條這裡面還動用了洗錢房的第五條他說我們目前數位金融一共有35項包括是你不同的規模跟技術不要放進去那是否我們可以根據這個方法來比照目前對於數位金融的安全控管來對於虛幣未來的安全規範做嚴防呢往下看譬如說"},{"start":280.176,"end":291.251,"text":"現在金融資安方案第二點零有這些東西這裡面要求符合國際資安的管理標準ISO27001好 但是現在做到什麼程度往下看"},{"start":292.435,"end":313.25,"text":"我們現在看一下連一個這麼簡單的電子發票的應用程式就是你暫存電子發票可以幫你查發票的我們都要符合這個規範了那未來虛幣的交易管理保存要不要達到這個標準思考一下往下看ISO 27001好我們看到了智通的安全漏洞再給爭取一分鐘的時間"},{"start":314.554,"end":330.805,"text":"我們都看到這個熟悉的畫面永遠的帥哥電影巨星Tom Cruise在Mission Impossible的第一集當中他為了要駭進去他必須進入機房但是我們看一下目前有一個漏洞我們往下看來我們看看好再往前"},{"start":332.648,"end":353.495,"text":"除了進入機房之外我們在好萊塢電影看到很多諜報片喔不用到機房喔今天到營業大廳我跟客戶的談話遠方聽不到我們在講什麼但是呢透過監視器注視我水杯的震動波紋可以知道我在跟他對話你說這是天方夜譚嗎沒有這是真實發生的還有"},{"start":354.502,"end":369.2,"text":"你在一個安全的環境裡面結果客戶的手機的晶片桌上的電腦裡面的滑鼠有沒有可能都被害呢我們來看一下現在規定國安治安管理標準ISO 27001"},{"start":371.072,"end":387.986,"text":"但是他有一個漏洞他的驗證流程相當完備但是呢決定驗證的範圍誰來決定申請驗證人來決定我申請驗證人在ISO27001我只要求設機房我的營業大廳我不設房我的客戶的手機我不設房只要一個單純的中國的熱心"},{"start":390.946,"end":413.731,"text":"ESP32的這樣的低階晶片它就有辦法通過它主要是用來Wi-Fi跟藍牙模式各位手上你的手機有沒有Wi-Fi有沒有藍牙可能就有這樣的低階晶片這樣的低階晶片要不要列入我們聯合申請中心的ISO27001來稽查呢要不要納入呢可以任由申請者自己管嗎往下看"},{"start":414.676,"end":420.914,"text":"所以包括行動的APP我們客戶手機上下載的這些APP它有沒有辦法通過我們速發部"},{"start":423.598,"end":451.494,"text":"我們是發署裡面有一個資安跨領域聯防機物聯網場域的推動計畫當中他有沒有辦法在L3還有教育行為的這個APP有沒有辦法納入規範所以當我們今天在談未來的虛幣虛擬資產我們要怎麼樣去立法來規管的時候其實立法的架構剛剛專家學者講了很多但是今天從我們民眾最關心的當我追求所愛的時候我要想想我失去他心中的痛苦"},{"start":452.174,"end":479.37,"text":"這也是當我們創造一個新的財富的時候我們要去思考這個財富如何防止成為犯罪的冤首因此呢在這裡不厭其強的再度的從仿造的角度來提出未來虛擬資產的交易法規的規管當中我們用現有的經驗去謀取教訓趕快的把這些防範的機制呢一併在法規當中呢予以明確的規範避免日後生成漏洞到時候又來後悔又來難過以上建議 謝謝"},{"start":481.618,"end":482.601,"text":"好 謝謝嘉賓委員接著請賴世寶召委"}]}},{"id":"162481","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162481","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1facf4a1c013491c815d0f1804948a25d261310761e9d241d77057babbb10d0fc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:12:42 - 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AD的人員的專業度還有可以進行的場所到底應該要怎麼做那當天我們至少是要有一名醫師一名護理師還有一位社工師那主要是由專業人士來主講比如說醫師或者是後續我們有討論也許有過急重症經驗有過安眠經驗"},{"start":172.435,"end":178.839,"text":"的資深的護理師也有辦法可以辦到那當然就是討論幾種醫療情形下會依照病人的意願來決定要不要使用生命維持啊營養餵食啊等等那我就舉一些當場我們就有助理提出來的例子比如說廖醫師會重複的跟我們問如果這個癌症已經復發第三次了你覺得算不算在我們這個末期病人的標準裡面"},{"start":201.667,"end":219.659,"text":"可能我們如果去這個李明活動中心每個人都會覺得對阿癌症復發第三次應該就是末期病人但其實不是這個認定的標準是非常嚴格的那再來像我們其中有一個助理他是自己心臟衰竭所以他曾經放過葉克膜然後等待心臟捐贈所以他就有提出說像這個外傷超過六月那如果我再放葉克膜我已經先簽了這個ACP可是我遲遲還沒有等到"},{"start":232.728,"end":260.749,"text":"等到我的心臟那這個ACP對我未來的醫療救治會不會有什麼影響他很快就會連接到他生命中的一些經驗或者是他看到親友們面臨的狀態等等以及不可逆轉的昏迷跟植物人到底有什麼差別這個也是需要有一些資深的臨床經驗或是你實際上有在這些接觸過這樣子善終的病人你才有辦法去讓一般沒有"},{"start":261.609,"end":283.741,"text":"沒有這種臨床經驗沒有醫學經驗的人可以聽得懂的狀態那像是這個營養餵食我們其中一個辦公室成員他就說他曾經有接受過鼻胃管他連一秒鐘都沒有辦法忍受那他這種一秒鐘都沒有辦法忍受是不是在他簽署ACP AD的過程會變得比人家更為激進嗎"},{"start":285.462,"end":299.254,"text":"類似這樣的狀況我們都不再提出那也有人他遇到說家裡剛好有久病臥床的阿嬤他為了要放置是不是要放置鼻胃管或者是要從胃來打動家屬經歷了極大的爭吵"},{"start":302.817,"end":307.521,"text":"所以他也會在這個過程中他會想要來做ACP跟AD可是他會有很多疑問嘛他會想要問說那這種不同的營養給予請問我在什麼意識之下會有什麼樣的感覺那它分別會有什麼副作用等等你在做這些溝通的過程其實是需要臨床經驗才有辦法所以剛一再的提到說訓練的品質"},{"start":327.676,"end":354.284,"text":"這個的確是在我們實際run裡面會深刻的感受到那當然在這個醫師解釋重度失智的定義也跟一般我們認定的重度失智的定義好像很不一樣大家覺得已經這樣已經算很嚴重了因為失智正常在很多影集或是電影裡面都會有演繹到結果我們認定的嚴重其實在這個ACP AD根本還不算嚴重也不符合"},{"start":355.044,"end":380.136,"text":"那這個是很多這個溝通的過程中我覺得真的是我們到底全聯會之前有提出我們到底是要追求很高的簽署率還是我們希望他的理解程度跟專業程度是有牽連的他是真心的在理解他最後每一個過程然後知道他要做什麼決定然後他去做的這樣子的"},{"start":381.377,"end":408.199,"text":"過程那當然講到這個開放的場域我覺得聯誼已經非常有經驗了等一下醫師們應該也會分享他們其實也會到一些公司團體或者是宗教團體或者是靈敏活動中心一起去做團體的諮商不過在他們大部分的經驗ACP跟AD就會連結起來因為你講解完剛好你也有見證人或是你有親友陪伴你就直接簽署了"},{"start":409.8,"end":432.415,"text":"剛講到有這麼多複雜的這些併程你如果把ACP跟AD拆開基本上你聽完第一次到你過了很久又去簽第二次這些東西你需要重新再理解一次是一定會忘記的啦不容易 對所以它如果可以連結在一起其實是最為方便那擴大這些場域我是個人是覺得贊成的"},{"start":435.017,"end":458.66,"text":"那但是如果提供這個ACP AD的人還是認為如果大家覺得醫生人數太少或是醫生的服務量能不足我們還是要仔細去思考是不是要有急重症安寧照護等等的資深專科護理師來做會比較適合但我覺得大家方向是一致的大家"},{"start":459.361,"end":485.272,"text":"在座所有的人今天其實都是想要讓可以適用ACP的這個人數可以增加並且讓台灣的人民更能深切的感受到生命教育的重要等等以上是我們上次去考察最後的結論那我也希望說稍微下午考察完以後我們下下禮拜有機會繼續來做修法的過程我們可以再進行更深刻的討論這樣以上謝謝"},{"start":487.981,"end":488.001,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162480","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162480","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fa5b4e4426f58945f199a60f0d87397c9d1310761e9d241d7700ff06c9c86dfe3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:55:23 - 10:01:20","影片長度":"00:05:57","會議時間":"2025-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第5次公聽會（事由：召開「虛擬資產服務法」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-12","start_time":"2025-06-12T09:55:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-12T10:01:20+08:00","duration":357,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":24.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.95534375,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.869093750000005,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.31471875000001,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.81221875,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.43096875,"end":156.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.30596875,"end":157.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.21721875,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.01534375,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.25159375,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.85034375,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.77284375000002,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.87721875000003,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.33659375000002,"end":237.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.00221875000003,"end":241.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.35596875000002,"end":261.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.23471875,"end":266.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.95971875000004,"end":278.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.77221875000004,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.65659375,"end":334.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.05034375,"end":345.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.05284375,"end":347.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.72346875,"end":348.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.64721875000004,"end":355.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.63346875,"end":357.44346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.389,"end":24.349,"text":"我想今天非常的重要也是謝謝趙偉今天舉辦這個虛擬資產的公聽會從去年我們在審所謂的洗錢防治法的時候我當時就說我們修了一部很奇怪的法因為洗錢防治法本來是要訂令處理洗錢的行為可是我們把虛擬資產的管理放在洗錢防治法這是一個我認為不倫不類的法案"},{"start":25.029,"end":43.104,"text":"但是沒有辦法當時因為來不及只能先把它放在那邊所以包括登記制包括所有對於虛擬資產的相關規範反而都在一部很奇怪的洗錢防治法裡面那今天終於樂見金管會也從善如流的接受立法院的建議另外擬出了專法"},{"start":43.985,"end":60.532,"text":"而這個專法我們也是等了很久那重點是我上一個禮拜已經開過一次的公聽會其實我們還是認為說這個專法除了我們自己政府部門應該做的事情之外其實沒有人會比業界更了解這個市場"},{"start":61.352,"end":84.853,"text":"所以 接下去的虛擬資產不管是專法 接下來的內容跟方向我相信還是都需要公開的多方的討論那以及我們要面對一個未知的世界而這個世界它正在發生不能因為我們不知道或不懂它我們就假裝看不到所以 接下去在這個月我們也會提出台灣民眾黨的修法版本"},{"start":85.453,"end":99.414,"text":"以金管會的版本為基礎但是我們覺得上次也提出了我們的方向認為說還是有幾個東西現在必須就要納入而不是等到到時候再說首先虛擬資產業者"},{"start":101.497,"end":122.515,"text":"儘管會處開放的項目目前為止如果單單只靠現貨交易在營運上面我相信不太可能得到所謂的固定合理的利潤所以才會有這麼多業者停而走險所以我們希望能夠開放它有可能將來也許會有的衍生型金融商品"},{"start":123.015,"end":138.883,"text":"因為不是因為你不承認它它就不存在我相信只要有金融教育的價值它就會存在而我們希望能夠在一部專法裡面先把預想未來一定可能會發生的部分也應該現在就加以納管所以我們認為說"},{"start":140.544,"end":156.181,"text":"新產品新幣種的發行銷售會都很快的出現台灣不能再鎖著市場限制項目否則又跟原來一樣我們都不管它所以它就變成自由發揮造成非常多的社會問題第二個部分是"},{"start":157.355,"end":180.638,"text":"在金融會版本裡面沒有的就是針對現在比較普遍尤其是在虛擬資產業非常多的所謂的網紅他們沒有投信投顧的資格可是他們一樣在推展相關的所謂虛擬資產的商品那我們一直把它當商品所以我們就不把它當成金融商品所以一直產生這些所謂法律之外的這些"},{"start":181.398,"end":204.739,"text":"化外之地那這些規範我們如果對於銀行對於投信投估有這麼嚴格的要求但是我們對於所謂的新的新興的金融商品它的廣告它的所謂的KOL我們沒有任何的規範這反而是一個很奇怪的事情而且現在的詐騙幾乎都發生在社群媒體或者是網路的平台"},{"start":205.299,"end":216.455,"text":"也就是說太多人是因為相信了某人而去投資了一個他所不熟悉的商品而這個商品可能就是虛擬資產所以我們希望說既然虛擬資產要管就認真的管把可能發生的問題都要一併的管"},{"start":221.061,"end":241.437,"text":"另外一個部分是虛擬資產我上次問了金管會一個非常重要的問題今天我們把他管了之後如果他發生問題我們有沒有後續的備案今天我們只是很嚴格要求他你要來納管你要來登記但是一旦發生問題就像我們早年非常多的銀行信用合作社突然間倒閉然後"},{"start":242.418,"end":261.073,"text":"消費者求儲物門所以這個所謂存款保險這樣的形態是不是應該在虛擬資產業者裡面要有成立相關類似所謂的投保中心或者是除了納入金保法之外我們希望還能夠將來有要求這些業者大家一起能夠"},{"start":262.234,"end":288.064,"text":"符合政府的規範而且也可以達到賠付的責任否則接下去有可能發生非常多的消費者在受到陰害影響的時候並沒有辦法繼續的求償甚至我們現在有發現很多虛幣可能它是損失的是虛幣可是將來賠付的時候很難去算它的價值所以目前為止我們也希望說能夠建立一個類似"},{"start":290.306,"end":308.067,"text":"虛擬資產的基金來協助業者將來的賠付那最重要的其實還是打炸這個專法進入專法的階段我相信業者的成本會提高但是同樣的金管會我們希望金管會的態度是只要希望能夠納管的人很希望被管的人"},{"start":308.487,"end":332.09,"text":"他能够希望落地的人我们都应该有机会让他在台湾落地生根因为这样才能真正保障投资的台湾人在发生事情之后他可以在台湾球场否则在现在的状况我们有绝大多数的民众其实是在国外的平台上去交易虚拟资产然后造成了发生了问题他也在台湾没有办法做处理"},{"start":332.45,"end":344.439,"text":"所以既然要納管我們就希望金管會主動跟有意來台營業的業者主動聯絡溝通而且希望他們都能夠來登記這才是對台灣整體虛擬資產業界一個比較健全的發展謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162479","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162479","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fa41d7a34d96ecfb24d0f1804948a25d261310761e9d241d77f27cb3eae2286e0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:56:53 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各位專家學者 各位行政官員 還有我的同事生跟死都是人生的大事情我們沒有辦法決定自己如何出生 但我們希望都能夠參與選擇自己如何結束生命的一個過程 這就是"},{"start":29.702,"end":57.331,"text":"善终的权利以及尊重医疗自主这也是病毒法的基本精神但是这个病毒法从2019年上路到现在大概只有1%的台湾的成年人做出了医疗决定预先的医疗决定跟完成签署那这代表虽然说我们已经有了法源基础但是整个社会的认知跟实践"},{"start":58.795,"end":87.61,"text":"還是遙不可及甚至可以說是很漫長的一條路我一生都在醫院服務我最近的30年是在癌症醫院工作那我見過無數的生離跟死別我把疾病分為三種一種是不會疼痛也不會痛苦例如沒有合併症的高血壓一種是不會疼痛但會痛苦例如想要生孩子但是罹患勃應症"},{"start":89.856,"end":99.924,"text":"还有一种会痛苦也会有病痛例如癌症那我深深体会人能够有尊严的"},{"start":101.836,"end":123.378,"text":"結束生命這是非常的福氣很遺憾因為台灣多數人並沒有簽署沒有簽出這個育立醫療決定的這個簽署所以到最後面臨生命的終點的時候是任由命運跟疼痛病痛來擺佈他們苦家屬痛他們痛家屬苦"},{"start":125.1,"end":135.51,"text":"然後我也聽過很多家屬他為他們的家人做出了在臨終前做出了全力急救的這個決定後來他們都後悔了2024年9月台灣民眾黨舉辦了一個生與死的記者會生是我一生努力推動的代理義母的法案"},{"start":147.29,"end":158.102,"text":"另外一個就是尊嚴善終法剛剛也有提到安樂死這兩項都是本黨的優先法案代表我們對生育權跟尊嚴善終權的重視這幾年來從副大人先生"},{"start":163.179,"end":190.779,"text":"他遠赴國外安樂死到作家瓊瑤女士自我表達結束生命的方式越來越多人關注如何死亡這個議題那這件事就反映出當前的法規跟制度還有不盡周延之處以至於想要追求尊嚴善終的人們他必須用極端的方式甚至是遠赴海外的方式令人遺憾台灣是亞洲第一個"},{"start":192.119,"end":204.617,"text":"有完整保障病人自主權利專法的國家這是人權也是進步身為立法者我們很願意廣納意見尤其今天在座的專家學者們"},{"start":206.98,"end":225.21,"text":"我們來做適時的一個修正讓這項法案能夠更加完備要作為病人跟家屬面臨臨終議題的一個最堅強的後盾我希望每一個人都能夠在人生的最後一個階段可以自主的選擇告別的方式"},{"start":226.01,"end":237.191,"text":"安心的尊嚴的走完最後一程我相信這也是我跟立法院的同事們還有行政官員大家參與立法者的所有人的共同心願謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fa673db11aa62b4204d0f1804948a25d26b7f484ece6bb10f1b67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:08:19 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這樣子所以如何去擴大讓社工的角色讓職商家的角色可以參與我覺得這是應該去思考的那"},{"start":330.146,"end":332.688,"text":"怎麼樣從訓練的過程當中讓他們有更好的一個訓練然後加入這個團隊我覺得大家不要害怕專業之間真的合作力量大合作力量大所以可以引進更多的專業人士大家願意進來"},{"start":346.806,"end":364.695,"text":"我真的覺得事實上他是在降低這個醫師他的這個服務量我們都知道現在醫護其實是嚴重人力不足的那在這樣的情況底下如果我們還要推動這個病毒法這個SCP希望有更多的服務更大的量能"},{"start":365.612,"end":382.177,"text":"那不是應該就是讓更多的專業可以加減來嗎我覺得在這件事情上是不是這個有些異界的朋友真的也可以拋開這樣的一個思維就是多去思考只要大家透過團隊合作大家都可以擔負起這樣的一個角色跟責任"},{"start":383.103,"end":386.065,"text":"那為什麼不是用一個更包容 更開放就是讓大家都進來那這樣子我們才可以往去擴大提高這個SCP的這個簽署率啊可以讓更多人這個將來"},{"start":397.136,"end":415.506,"text":"在這個他可以接觸他可以受到服務然後我們當時立法的精神也才可以完全的落實那最後我要講的是政府在預算的部分我覺得我現在看到很多政府只有他想不想做其實也沒有說預算夠不夠的問題是你的優先順序要擺在哪裡所以雖然現在政府已經開放這個65歲以上願意去負擔這個經費"},{"start":424.249,"end":435.098,"text":"但就我個人而言我覺得這個幅度其實相對是小的就是在政府可用的預算裡面事實上如果今天我們病毒法這邊夠落實這個對於健保我之前在委員會講過對我們未來健保它反而其實是一個就是你可以節省更多這種無效醫療的支出"},{"start":445.922,"end":449.264,"text":"所以不要只是單看說前面的諮商費你可能會花多少錢你可能要把後面透過這樣子的一個獄力組他的那個完成然後降低了這個無效醫療然後我們可以讓我們整個的制度達到多贏的目標所以"},{"start":464.113,"end":492.792,"text":"我是蠻期待今天有這麼多的專家學者在我們在看問題的時候我還是再次強調大家拋開自己的本位主義然後以病人為中心然後以我們要服務的人民為中心他需要什麼然後大家各自去想說那我們還可以多做一點什麼我相信如果可以以這個為中心的話我們會更快找出更多的共識那讓這一波的修法也可以再往前更進一步"},{"start":493.171,"end":494.196,"text":"以上是我的發言 謝謝好 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穩定幣與電子支付在實際功能上先進理應比照電子支付 加以管理 防止監理套利中央銀行提出的建議 包括穩定幣發行人"},{"start":104.083,"end":120.375,"text":"繳存的準備金還有申請業務資料遵循外匯規定都是保障金融程序的重要措施我們支持這些規範納入專法並呼應草案中應補強資訊揭露與準備資金審計的制度"},{"start":130.241,"end":151.43,"text":"確保發行人不會以模糊空間操作資金或轉嫁風險除了發行人我們特別關注的交易面的規範目前國內詐騙都是橫行的不少紮密的資產被作用為詐騙的工具資產"},{"start":154.778,"end":158.999,"text":"特有人受害後往往就是求助我們虛擬資產平台卻因為不屬金融業而逃避監管這對我們全民來說是嚴重的不公平我們不能再讓投資人長期暴露在毫無防護的環境下"},{"start":178.624,"end":188.551,"text":"金管會雖然去年被指定為主管機關也發行了十項VASP的指導原則就是說白話 沒有強制的牌照也沒有懲罰權 也沒有定期的經檢實質上人就是無牙的監理"},{"start":205.842,"end":218.648,"text":"我們希望金管會正視這一點不要再讓所謂的自律規範成為拖延立法的理由我們在這裡強調也有三點的建議第一點法規必須明確授權主管機關核發牌照實施監禮與懲罰"},{"start":234.468,"end":258.107,"text":"不能再留意原則性的建議第二 針對資產所有人應建議資產分離保管交易透明 廣告真實與申訴的機制這是保護人民最基本的條件第三 要有跨部會協調機制因虛擬資產同時牽扯了金流"},{"start":263.531,"end":273.637,"text":"資安還有稅務的外匯各部會有各自行政將讓詐騙與風險繼續轉落動未來我們的立法院會我們院會會持續監督專法的進度也會要求主管機關在法案未完成前不得"},{"start":289.326,"end":315.897,"text":"以指導原則取代真正的法律責任交易市場的健康與人民的資產安全是我們立法則無旁貸的使命我們一起努力來保護我們人民的財產謝謝大家辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝麥一貞委員接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員那個花言"}]}},{"id":"162478","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162478","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1faa62a0fdd72ed0062d0f1804948a25d2608a222f77fdbc20a37a2079df6bf46255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:38:36 - 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有執行受監護的生活那醫療"},{"start":268.824,"end":285.73,"text":"养护照顾跟我们的财产管理的职务可是阅历医疗的决定还是要本人来做签署所以监护人没有办法代为签署权所以安宁照护仅能依据医师的判断与监护人无关这是目前制度尚未厘清的问题"},{"start":288.49,"end":315.297,"text":"所以安寧照護養護就安寧療護絕對是一個很好的政策他實現病人自主善終的期待可面對到床位不足跟使用率偏低的現況跟安寧共照應延伸到社區共照發展成居家安寧機構安寧等在宅那個醫療模式讓病人有住院以外的選擇健保署當然也啟動了居家醫療照護整合計畫的2.0跟在宅"},{"start":317.665,"end":336.666,"text":"及政的招呼事辦計畫5月我在質詢的時候就獲得確認下半年將針對各類安民招呼進行品質平和給予最高30%的給付加成並規劃包月制的給付實現不同工不同酬"},{"start":339.997,"end":367.522,"text":"最後就是病人在宅安眠發生我們病危則送醫送到醫院病人在住宿機構安眠的時候發生病危或是在機構過世勢必導致發生醫療糾紛的比例大幅增加所以因此醫療的背後一定要有強大的支持系統也就是分級醫療院所所應該垂直整合的綠色通道那而且這綠色通道除了提供傳統的緊急救護住院"},{"start":368.902,"end":391.179,"text":"資源以外那人力技術支持也是一個重要的一環所以衛福部必須要建立重大的一個這個強大的後勤資源跟確保系統來能夠承擔安民的業務我剛剛也很贊成孫教授剛剛撥放那個黃錢總院長我也覺得事實上是不是有更多人能夠進來我覺得這事實上是"},{"start":392.219,"end":414.461,"text":"針對這住法 我的看法可是我覺得不是只有這個所以我認為整個醫療決定到安寧照護的政策體系裡邊希望能夠提高住宿機構的醫事人員的訪視費跟積極提升在宅醫療的量能還有能夠綠色通道的避免依舊來為住宿機構提供後勤的支援系統 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162477","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162477","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc296d1d2cabc1fadb6769367c6c038799a60f0d87397c9d08a222f77fdbc20a75fbb8e6d82346ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:22:50 - 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謝謝主席我們監管會的各位官員還有我們各位專家學者大家早安我想我們目前虛擬資產的監管是以中華民國虛擬通貨商業同業工會作為主體因此針對監管會這一次準備以虛擬資產服務法的"},{"start":22.219,"end":45.975,"text":"以政府的角色来明确定定各项的规范而不是由业者来负担此一监管与推展的责任我想本席是深表赞同尤其我们现在虚拟资产的诈骗手法也是层出不穷因此更需要这样一套的专法让整个虚拟资产市场与相关业者可以有法可循稳定发展"},{"start":46.815,"end":75.027,"text":"本席今天特就穩定幣提出幾項建議穩定幣主要作為虛擬市場的交易媒介交易的金額佔比超過80%已經逐漸進入實體經濟提供支付相關的服務一旦使用規模擴大應用場域增加並廣泛使用於跨境支付可能影響性有的支付與金融體系的健全運作"},{"start":76.347,"end":86.032,"text":"金融管會現在推動的虛擬資產服務法的草案版本擬納管虛擬通貨平台將穩定幣規範納入其中特別關於穩定幣監管制度的設計方向"},{"start":91.855,"end":106.339,"text":"在此我們本席提出以下幾點建議與觀察以其能在金融穩定與科技創新之間尋得適當的平衡第一點穩定幣具有支付潛力監管制度應該兩體才一"},{"start":108.78,"end":124.737,"text":"诚如中央银行的报告指出与单一法币挂钩的稳定币的确具备成为数位支付媒介的潜力然而也因认知我国目前尚未出现具有系统风险的大规模稳定币"},{"start":126.179,"end":148.656,"text":"現階段過度的預防是嚴格監管恐怕反而阻礙產業的萌芽所以本席建議草案研擬的方向可以考慮採漸進式的監理與沙盒機制相結合而非一次性的導入過重的牌照業務項目的限制準備金與申報制度等"},{"start":149.477,"end":170.226,"text":"但若涉及洗錢、詐騙、資金盤等不法活動時本席亦認同監管上仍不得豁免第二點本席認為借盡歐盟的MICA也就是歐洲加密資產市場監管法的比例原則監管制度的設計思維能對比美國聯邦與州的層層疊加"},{"start":176.269,"end":191.907,"text":"監管的邊界模糊的情況本席建議監管會可以參考歐盟MICA模式因為它的立法精神是強調監管目的要明確監管區隔要清楚還有不干預技術本身"},{"start":192.748,"end":208.92,"text":"所以本席建議原本的草案條文可以考慮在執法中納入比例原則的相關範疇避免對初創的業者用途單純的穩定幣或者是小型平台加強大型金融機構等量機關的法規要求"},{"start":214.304,"end":239.913,"text":"第三點本席認為多幣式的掛鉤或者是資產型參照的穩定幣可採分級的處理所以本席建議單一法幣穩定幣可採取標準監理而未來若開始逐漸開放時可以考慮多幣掛鉤式或者資產支持者如商品或者ETF為準備資產"},{"start":241.433,"end":249.761,"text":"則需提高資本透明度門檻但不應一刀切到底全面禁止或全額抵押應給予靈活籌碼或設計空間"},{"start":255.95,"end":270.136,"text":"不想建立的角色因明確分工避免多頭馬車央行與金管會目前雖已有默契協作但在虛擬資產服務法實行後建議形成明確的分工架構金管會負責業者與資格"},{"start":272.437,"end":289.542,"text":"業者資格與消費者的保護央行負責資產跨境支付外匯揭露等國稅及預防部進行交易資料的借接打擊洗錢與詐騙本席建議主管機關可以設立跨部會的加密資產監理委員會定期來審議監理執法來協調我們跨境的執行"},{"start":295.445,"end":320.308,"text":"最後本席支持穩定並納入虛擬資產服務法但監理政策應善用歐盟MICA的功能分層風險比率與技術中立的法制設計精神作為支持產業穩健逐漸發展的基石也讓我國在Web3的爛潮中既能安定也能不落人後以上"},{"start":322.653,"end":324.837,"text":"謝謝市民委員 接著我們邀請鄭學鋒 鄭律師"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}