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而且導致連毒品都進來了 也產生一堆鼻癌連海關 剛剛講的是一個新聞另外有一個海關 涉及集體這個貪汙他去蒐集一些微薄的賄賂跟這個私菸集團 走私集團都掛在一起連我們嘉義啊 你看嚴重到什麼程度連我的嘉義 嘉義關抄一個電子菸的地下倉儲市值就超過五千萬"},{"start":119.817,"end":146.97,"text":"這實驗真的太氾濫了,而且毒品都藏在裡面來,讓我們繼續解決問題現在剛好有立委在提到說這個煙間的分配目前是中央佔一半嘛,對不對?北京一半嘛,是不是?北京可以,你的報告裡面專欄報告說授權地方,主要是地方去查緝啊你看一下地方跟中央查緝的比例多少?91比9耶"},{"start":149.141,"end":159.962,"text":"都是地方在查緝 中央分那麼多錢 啊分完之後還出現了 剛有委員講的拿錢 拿引擎 拿去陪總統出國"},{"start":162.298,"end":189.605,"text":"所以我具體的要求,第一個,中央的這個煙間啊,應該多下放一些個地方,因為地方負責查緝嘛,對不對,做工作是地方啊,第二個,不能再出現的拿煙間去出國這件事情。另外,我們看一個具體的解決方案,美國商會在2026年的6月白皮書,他提到說我們非法煙瓶交易已經變成一個多面向的議題了,他提了一個很重要的建議,"},{"start":190.845,"end":217.634,"text":"他建立說要導入新世代的執法這個科技這個我希望你們在24號的會議都要好好討論更嚴重來 我們來看看依照國建署這個統計112年我們歷年國中學生使用這個電子菸國中生抽菸的高達3.2%高中生跳了一倍6.3%"},{"start":220.523,"end":239.613,"text":"大學生5.24所以不只要好好清查要怎麼避免我們的學生抽屍菸而且甚至碰到毒品另外我要特別問一個就是成人的電子菸使用率為什麼一直都沒有統計我們有統計是1.0那這個一定是一個黑數太多了吧有可能1.0嗎 寶定你有看到嗎 有可能1喔"},{"start":248.291,"end":265.279,"text":"成人抽電子菸比例只有1嗎?要相時去查好不好要相時去查 好來我提一個很嚴重的問題齁剛剛講這個菸毒啊跟著就進來了喪屍煙彈啊進來之後出現一個很嚴重的問題法務部的代表賽對不對法務部跟警察局你們現在查這個菸毒的時候"},{"start":276.499,"end":279.601,"text":"快篩的這個偽陽性啊多高大家知道嗎你的準確度只有30欸你這樣怎麼查這碰到兩個問題嘛你會不會侵犯到人權你快篩的時候因為你的快篩有問題你快篩結果抓到他你就把他關起來對不對關到隔天結果隔天一篩是偽陽性"},{"start":307.416,"end":328.577,"text":"這問題要解決準確度只有百分之三十我們具體做兩個很重要的先有六家六家提供這個快篩嘛對不對六家提供快篩去查一下嘛先給本席一個六家他們的準確度有多少"},{"start":332.342,"end":345.142,"text":"食藥署黃書市長會代言跟委員報告因為快篩本身不是屬於醫療器材那這個之前我們在行政院都開過會這個部分應該是刑事局在負責相關他的這個採購跟他的品管誰負責?刑事局"},{"start":346.515,"end":371.347,"text":"刑事警察局那24號會員要找他們來對不對好那你們訪問部負責這已經變成毒品了嘛這個我們在行政院都有討論過這個已經變成是毒品啦不是只有私菸問題啊所以訪問部也要進來啊好不好第一個把公布這六家它準確度到底有多少那你當然買比較精準的嘛好不好而且要求它快速的精準度要高主席先站起來喔最後做四個建議"},{"start":372.808,"end":381.262,"text":"請這四個建立在24號,具體來落實跟討論好不好?第一,建立地方跟中央調整菸間分配的這個比例"},{"start":382.359,"end":408.73,"text":"中央應該適度要下放給地方第二個嚴厲美國商會剛剛那個建議好不好然後呢第三個嚴厲就是剛剛講的這個喪屍煙土的這個快篩劑的你要中央要給一個指引然後要把這個快篩的精準度要一次提高了第四個剛剛講的剛才我們統計不好寫嘛統計成人煙的這個稀釋率是多少好不好我們一起來我們各部會來一起嚴厲第一天回去是你主席的嘛對不對"},{"start":410.951,"end":426.898,"text":"24號這個議題都要在裡面喔然後你到底得出什麼樣的解決方案送一份到辦公室來好的 謝謝我們來努力讓那個私菸不要這麼氾濫特別是毒品一定要煮好 謝謝趙委員的諮詢下一位請林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩我們不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1318,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時49分）請衛福部邱部長和財政部莊部長。"],["主席：兩位部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：大家好。24號你們就要召開跨部會會議，現在問題的嚴重性是什麼？因為私菸查緝不力，現在不只私菸氾濫，連毒品都已經氾濫了，所以24號這個會一定要針對問題趕快解決問題。","我們先來看第一個問題，那一天卓榮泰卓院長到你們財政部關務署開記者會，大家看一下那個畫面多諷刺，他本來是要去展現掃毒決心的，結果那一天早上媒體發了一個專題，說海巡署集體詐領查緝獎金高達數億元，他們做了什麼事情？他們勾結私菸集團，塞人頭去造假績效。部長，這是很沒面子的，那一天等於是財政部狠狠打了卓院長一巴掌，私菸的查緝，問題太多了，而且導致連毒品都進來了，也產生一堆弊案，連海關都有。剛剛講的是海巡署的新聞，另外有一個新聞是海關涉及集體貪污，他們去收取一些微薄的賄賂，跟私菸集團、走私集團都掛在一起的，連我們嘉義，你看嚴重到什麼程度？連我的家鄉嘉義縣抄一個電子煙的地下倉儲，市值就超過5,000萬，私菸真的太氾濫了，而且毒品就藏在裡面。","來，讓我們具體的解決問題，剛才有立委提到菸捐的分配目前是中央占一半嘛，對不對？地方一半嘛，是不是？部長，今天早上你在專案報告裡面提到要授權地方，因為主要是地方在查緝啊，你看一下地方跟中央查緝的比例多少？91比9耶，都是地方在查緝啊！結果中央分那麼多錢，然後分完之後還出現了剛剛有委員講的，拿菸捐去陪總統出國。所以我具體的要求，第一個，中央的菸捐應該多下放一些給地方，因為地方負責查緝嘛，對不對？做事情的人是在地方啊。第二個，不能再出現拿菸捐去出國這件事情。","另外，我們看一個具體的解決方案，美國商會2025年6月白皮書裡面提到，我們的非法菸品交易已經變成一個多面向的議題了，他們提了一個很重要的建議，建議要導入新世代的執法科技，這個部分我希望你們在24號的會議上都要好好討論。","更嚴重的是，我們來看一下，依照國健署的統計，我們歷年國中學生使用電子煙的比率，112年國中生抽菸的比率高達3.8%，高中生跳了一倍，6.3%，大學生5.24%，所以不只要好好清查，要怎麼避免我們的學生抽私菸，而且甚至去碰到毒品。","另外，我要特別問一個問題，就是成人的電子煙使用率為什麼一直都沒有統計？這個在24號……"],["邱部長泰源：我們有統計，是1.0。"],["張委員啓楷：1.0？這個一定是黑數太多了吧，有可能1.0嗎？部長，你用膝蓋想一下，有可能1嗎？成人抽電子煙比例只有1嗎？我看加一個零可能還不止吧！要翔實去查，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們翔實去查。"],["張委員啓楷：要翔實去查。","再來，我提一個很嚴重的問題，剛剛講到菸毒跟著就進來了，喪屍煙彈進來之後出現一個很嚴重的問題，今天法務部的代表在，對不對？法務部跟警察局，你們現在查菸毒的時候，快篩的偽陽性多高，大家知道嗎？你的準確度只有30%耶，這樣你怎麼查？這碰到兩個問題嘛，你會不會侵犯到人權？快篩的時候，因為你的快篩有問題，你快篩抓到他，就把他關起來，對不對？關到隔天。結果隔天一篩，發現是偽陽性，這個問題一定要解決，部長，這個問題很嚴重，對不對？準確度只有30%。我們具體提出兩個很重要的建議，現在有六家廠商提供快篩劑嘛，對不對？六家提供快篩劑，去查一下嘛，先給本席一個數據，這六家他們的準確度有多少。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我請食藥署王副署長回答一下。"],["王副署長德原：跟委員報告，因為快篩本身不是屬於醫療器材，這個之前我們在行政院都開過會，這個部分應該是刑事局在負責相關的採購跟品管。以上。"],["張委員啓楷：誰負責？"],["王副署長德原：刑事局。"],["邱部長泰源：刑事警察局。"],["張委員啓楷：刑事警察局，24號的會也要找他們來，對不對？法務部負責，現在已經變成毒品了嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們在行政院都有討論過了。"],["張委員啓楷：這個已經變成是毒品了，不是只有私菸問題啊！所以法務部也要進來，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，公布這六家的準確度到底有多少，你當然要買比較精準的嘛，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["張委員啓楷：而且要要求快篩的精準度要提高。主席已經站起來了，我最後做四個建議，這四個建議請在24號具體來落實跟討論，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，研議地方跟中央調整菸捐分配的比例，中央應該適度下放給地方；第二個，研議美國商會剛剛那個建議，好不好？第三個，研議剛剛講的喪屍煙毒快篩試劑的部分，中央要給一個指引，然後要把快篩的精準度提高；第四個是剛剛講的，我們沒統計好的，就是統計成人電子煙的吸食率，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一起來做，我們各部會一起來研議。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，那天會議是你主持的對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員啓楷：24號的時候這些議題都要在裡面喔！然後你到底得出什麼樣的解決方案也送一份到辦公室來。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝，要努力讓私菸不要這麼氾濫，特別是毒品……"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["主席：謝謝張委員的質詢。下一位請林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","麥玉珍委員請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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麻煩很快謝謝委員 我們兩年請這個專家評估一次那召開審議委員會以後提出建議那由這個衛福部 跨部會跟財政部等相關單位要再召開委員會來決定要不要調整"},{"start":79.909,"end":91.299,"text":"好 了解 我跟你講主要是因為在WHO的建議是這個健康捐獻要達到75%但是我們現在的健康捐的比例呢只是54%健康捐跟菸稅加起來54%所以事實上是還有調整的空間那當然這個議題主要是涉及到就是我們看到我們目前的"},{"start":103.01,"end":112.937,"text":"健康捐另一年健康捐的收入是一直下滑這當然有一種比較好的說法就是因為可能衛福部這邊推動煙品 煙害防治有成效但是另外一個情況有可能現在就是吸煙草的煙"},{"start":124.164,"end":148.394,"text":"的消費族群全部都去轉到去抽加熱煙或者是電子煙所以這也是這個有這樣子的一個情況那麼因此對於這個煙圈的下滑的這個部分那當然本席這邊會認為說既然我們的煙圈收入逐漸下降所以對於目前所分配的項目是不是應該有所調整呢"},{"start":149.696,"end":161.767,"text":"是對 我想我們就是剛剛吳市長有報告我們由兩年離社專家協者開會以後來再經過委員會來討論不是 我現在不是講菸捐調整而是說菸捐的分配用途任何的建議我們都會列入來討論好 我們來看一下因為你們現在菸捐分配的用途的話這個我們在112年的時候曾經有修過菸捐的使用用途的這個分配辦法"},{"start":171.977,"end":201.001,"text":"那麼但是呢本席有發現依照你們自己的菸捐分配用途的這個執行計畫裡面我們有看到有一些費用有一些這個這些這個錢事實上應該是可以用公務預算來編列的譬如說像是疫苗基金有關於疫苗的部分疫苗基金有補助然後或是我們透過菸捐去補貼購買一些疫苗那這些疫苗的部分事實上它本來也是可以透過"},{"start":202.922,"end":221.13,"text":"這個公務預算來編列的那因為這會產生一個排擠效應雖然我們現在對於這個罕見疾病的防治的經費可能也有所不足現在過去大家常常講說我們是不是應該多挹注在罕見疾病的這個醫療上面那麼因此像這個部分的話是不是衛福部應該要去檢討有關於菸菌挹注的"},{"start":224.381,"end":233.186,"text":"這個可以來檢討 項目可以來檢討不過我跟委員報告一下我們對罕病的照顧我們是增加今年增加了20 原來的健保總部變之下我增加了20億的公共預算來照顧罕病所以我們對罕病也是很重視那至於這裡面的一個項目我們都可以大家來研議"},{"start":247.435,"end":270.127,"text":"是也就是說是在整個菸捐的分配的部分如果說能夠將多一點的這個疫苗去這個菸捐的錢去捐助去益助罕病治療的話會更好但另外本行有發現在你們的這個菸捐的使用上面這也是依照你們自己的成果報告裡面所講的竟然還菸捐去支付國外的出國費用"},{"start":271.768,"end":292.855,"text":"像是林晉營次長陪同賴總統去繁榮南島智慧永續專案陪同賴總統去出訪太平洋友邦然後前衛福部的部長薛瑞元也是去巴拉圭參加這些會議那這些出國參加會議的經費適合用煙捐嗎"},{"start":299.546,"end":320.656,"text":"那事實上是不應該用煙磚的有依規定編列就可以使用你們這個部分本來應該是編列你們在公務的出國預算裡面可是你們現在把煙磚拿來做這種什麼陪手桶出國這個我本身認為說這樣子的方式是不對的是不正確的其實醫療專業的官員其實是做了很多的醫療上的交流啦"},{"start":328.86,"end":334.061,"text":"我今天提出這個問題,我希望衛福部能夠去檢討,而且要好好的善用煙捐而不是把煙捐拿去貼補你們衛福部的高官出國的差旅費好不好好,謝謝我們會檢討,而且這個都是用在醫藥的交流啦跟委員報告謝謝委員的諮詢,現在會請張祺凱委員諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1292,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時42分）麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長好。我們從2009年調整菸品健康福利捐之後，到現在已經16年沒有再調整健康福利捐，針對要不要調整的問題，其實社會上也有一些意見，質疑為什麼這麼多年都沒有再調整？現在的健康福利捐是每包20元，也就是說20元的這個價格已經16年沒調整，請問衛福部，有沒有考慮要調整？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，要不要調整，有一個審議委員會審議，他們是兩年開一次會，會做一個建議。"],["翁委員曉玲：兩年開一次會，代表有8次的審議委員會都認為不需要調整，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我請國健署吳署長跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，麻煩快點！"],["吳署長昭軍：謝謝委員。我們兩年請專家評估一次，召開審議委員會以後會提出建議，由衛福部跨部會跟財政部等相關單位再召開委員會來決定要不要調整。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。主要是因為WHO建議的健康捐要達到75%，但我們現在健康捐的比率只是54%，就是健康捐跟菸稅加起來是54%，事實上是還有調整的空間，當然，這個議題還涉及到我們歷年的健康捐收入一直下滑，一種比較好的說法是因為衛福部推動菸害防制有成效，但另外一個情況，有可能是吸菸草菸的消費族群，全部都轉去抽加熱菸或者電子煙。對於菸捐下滑的部分，本席是認為既然我們的菸捐收入逐年下降，那麼對於目前用途分配的項目是不是應該有所調整？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，剛剛吳署長有報告，我們由兩年一次的專家學者開會以後，再經過委員會來討論……"],["翁委員曉玲：不是，我現在不是講菸捐調整，而是說菸捐的分配用途……"],["邱部長泰源：任何的建議，我們都會列入來討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我們來看一下你們現在的菸捐分配用途。112年你們曾經修過菸捐分配及運作辦法，但是本席發現依照你們規定的菸捐分配用途執行計畫，有一些費用、一些錢事實上應該是可以用公務預算編列，譬如疫苗基金，有關於疫苗部分，你們有透過菸捐補貼購買疫苗，但事實上，疫苗的部分本來是可以透過公務預算編列，因為這會產生排擠效應，像現在對於罕見疾病的防治經費可能有所不足，過去大家也常常說是不是應該多挹注經費在罕見疾病的醫療上，像這個部分，衛福部是不是也應該檢討有關菸捐挹注的項目？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可以檢討，項目可以檢討。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，像我這邊講的……"],["邱部長泰源：不過跟委員報告，我們對……"],["翁委員曉玲：像你們報告裡講的，譬如四價的流感疫苗採購……"],["邱部長泰源：對罕病的照顧，在原來健保總額不變之下，我們增加了20億的公務預算來照顧，所以我們對罕病也是很重視，至於這裡面的項目，大家都可以來研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，也就是說，在整個菸捐的分配上，如果能夠將多一點菸捐的錢去捐助、挹注罕病治療，這樣應該會更好。另外，本席發現在你們的菸捐使用上，這也是你們自己的成果報告裡面講的，竟然還用菸捐去支付國外出國費用，像林靜儀次長陪同賴總統「繁榮南島智慧永續」專案出訪太平洋友邦，又譬如前衛福部部長薛瑞元到巴拉圭參加會議等，這些出國參加會議的經費適合用菸捐嗎？事實上是不應該用菸捐……"],["邱部長泰源：有依規定編列就可以使用。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分本來應該編列在出國的公務預算裡，可是你們現在卻把菸捐拿來做這種陪總統出國什麼的，本席認為這樣的方式是不對、不正確的。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，有醫療專業的官員一起去，其實是做了很多醫療上的交流，這純粹就專業上考量。"],["翁委員曉玲：我今天提出這個問題，希望衛福部能夠檢討，要好好善用菸捐，而不是把菸捐拿去貼補你們衛福部高官出國的差旅費，這部分希望你們要檢討，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會檢討，但這個都是用在醫藥的交流上，跟委員報告。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員的質詢。","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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那個其實在過去我們妨礙到這個NI防治法的案件我們已經處理了四萬六千多件尤其在今年114件監測案件裡面下架啦 把它下架了有94%不好意思跟你說 還很多啦所以你越不快趕快處理這個事情你就拖越久嘛 等幾百萬人你就管不了我想這些問題我們有責任把它處理好我們也會負責任的來把它處理好"},{"start":238.938,"end":265.964,"text":"加熱煙是可以有條件審查通過電子煙是禁止的除了對這個健康是高風險的危害那也很容易放入毒品是不是例如易脫米子就是俗稱的喪屍的煙彈你去問任何一個第一線的員警他們都知道現在是氾濫成災但衛福部的預告的煙害防治法我要請大家聽清楚你只強調販售端跟製造端的規範卻沒有禁止持有"},{"start":266.884,"end":285.74,"text":"那你叫那第一線的那個警察無法查緝啊也沒辦法沒辦法銷毀啊部長你如果不去禁止持有你要怎麼杜絕那個喪屍煙彈呢而且電子煙就是喪屍煙彈的載具嘛他是他的載具嘛你不從源頭著手那你這個法你怎麼杜絕呢"},{"start":286.3,"end":304.495,"text":"我們當然有從源頭還有換賣抓到以後以前地方政府在抓的時候他們最大的問題是沒辦法我們就講這個 禁止持有你要不要禁止持有你只有製造跟販售端嘛要禁止持有你這個沒有列入你的修法裡面嘛"},{"start":304.795,"end":310.219,"text":"趕快改 趕快改我們有列入新的修法的內容我們新的修法 會處理這一個部分拜託中部長您上來就是說現在糖 台北總統一直在講說這個健康台灣 糖對人體有很大的危害肥胖 糖尿病 心血管病 脂肪肝 痛風等等"},{"start":330.593,"end":348.76,"text":"尤其糖尿病是在前十大死因之一已經很多年了我要告訴大家糖尿病大家都不知道糖尿病病人罹患癌症有百分之十到二十五罹患癌症病人當中有十到二十五是有糖尿病的這個糖的部分的管理對家庭的經濟健保的負擔都很重我現在請教莊部長 莊部長您對糖稅"},{"start":351.141,"end":355.225,"text":"您對唐穗的見解如何?目前沒有這樣的規劃沒有這樣的規劃?沒有這樣的規劃?邱部長你也沒有這樣的規劃嗎?"},{"start":368.639,"end":379.431,"text":"你也沒有這樣規劃嗎?邱部長也沒有嗎?不是說健保沒錢嗎?關心糖尿病 關心身體健康 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is an elephant in the room.，大家都視而不見，大象那麼大，你當作沒看到啊！根據菸害防制法，其實合法的紙菸都不可以在網路上販賣，可是現在網路上，你隨便google都能買到違法、未經政府許可的加熱菸，你看看中間那個黃色的地方，賣家還宣稱三天到貨、品質保證、健康享受。部長，你就放任這個東西這樣放著嗎？是蓄意放水還是你根本沒有能力處理？你看廣告成這個樣子！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實在過去違反菸害防制法的案件，我們已經處理了四萬六千多件，尤其在今年114年監測的案件裡面，下架的有94%……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我要跟你說的是還有很多，如果你不趕快處理這個事情，拖得越久，等到了幾百萬人，你就管不了了，滾成雪球了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：這些問題我們有責任把它處理好，也會負責任的把它處理好。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，再來談加熱菸部分，加熱菸是可以有條件審查通過，而電子煙是禁止的，因為除了對健康有高風險危害外，也很容易放入毒品，是不是？例如依托咪酯，就是俗稱的喪屍煙彈，你去問任何第一線的員警，就知道現在是氾濫成災，但衛福部預告的菸害防制法，我請大家聽清楚，只強調販售端跟製造端的規範，卻沒有禁止持有，這樣讓第一線的警察無法查緝，也沒有辦法沒入、銷毀，部長，如果不禁止持有，要怎麼杜絕喪屍煙彈呢？電子煙是喪屍煙彈的載具，你不從源頭著手，那這個法要怎麼杜絕這個危害呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然有從源頭還有販賣……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有啊，你們現在就是沒有啊！"],["邱部長泰源：抓到以後……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們公布的法案沒有啊！"],["邱部長泰源：以前地方政府在抓的時候，最大的問題是菸害防制法沒有寫沒入……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們就講要不要禁止持有？你只有製造端跟販售端，要禁止持有，這個部分沒有列入你的修法裡面嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：有吧！有吧！"],["陳委員昭姿：趕快改，趕快改，簡單的……"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，我們有列入新的修法內容。"],["邱部長泰源：我們新的修法有處理這個部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。另外要請問莊部長，現在糖的問題也很嚴重，總統一直在講「健康台灣」，但糖對人體有很大的危害，肥胖、糖尿病、心血管病、脂肪肝……"],["主席：時間到了。"],["陳委員昭姿：痛風等等，尤其糖尿病列為國人前十大死因之一已經很多年了，我要告訴大家，很多人不知道，糖尿病病人罹患癌症有10%到25%，而罹患癌症的病人當中，也有10%到25%是有糖尿病的，所以糖的管理對家庭經濟、健保負擔都很重要，請教莊部長，你對糖稅的見解如何？"],["主席：時間已經到了，陳委員，時間已經到了。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，幾句話就好，糖稅的方向你有沒有在研議？你的方向是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前沒有這樣的規劃。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有這樣的規劃？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有這樣的規劃？邱部長，你也沒有這樣的規劃嗎？邱部長也沒有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是說健保沒錢嗎？你要想辦法啊！"],["邱部長泰源：委員關心糖尿病、關心身體健康……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：要多元化照顧，我們當然可以鼓勵大家喝無糖飲料。"],["主席：好，來不及質詢的部分，請他們提書面報告。"],["陳委員昭姿：請兩位部長思考看看，思考看看。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們再跟委員報告。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員的質詢。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝主席。"],["主席：下一位請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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罰款嗎他是行政長罰款 那是行政 罰款那一位先生來來 吳署長 吳署長我想在使用者使用者會怎麼樣使用者的話就是最高罰一萬罰一萬塊 是加強宣導好不好好 謝謝你說罰一萬根本沒在罰啊有啦 有啦我周邊所有人齁我遇到的從來沒有一個人被罰過是蛤"},{"start":169.742,"end":196.252,"text":"當然你會說因為我旁邊都沒有人抽電子菸啊抽到沒被訪可是有一些人有抽特別是年輕人因為本席有接觸就是士農工商年輕朋友有辦很多活動他們也不講說他有抽啦我看他手上就握了一支然後嘴巴就偷偷這樣比一下比一下後來我才知道不是在吃口香糖是在抽電子菸"},{"start":198.45,"end":222.41,"text":"像這樣子你要怎麼抓電子菸電子菸其實禍國殃民請問部長我們一直說禁電子菸全台灣有多少支電子菸有多少人吃電子菸有多少根 那個好像可以重複抽吧"},{"start":223.553,"end":252.276,"text":"電子煙請旁邊的那個有沒有統計知道你大概粗估有多少根電子煙它就是煙油加上一個載具那個煙油是可以替換載具可以寵物使用抽的時候必須要有那個就叫載具就要有那一根那一支電子煙全台灣有幾支電子煙這個沒有統計大概不知道那接著請財政部部長"},{"start":254.977,"end":282.111,"text":"部長,仿籤到處都在賣啊那重點是還有一些人從國外、日本或者是香港進來的時候欸?海關他就帶進來了啊你們抓不抓?會被處罰?超過10根、超過100根你們做什麼樣的處罰?一根就會抓"},{"start":282.776,"end":299.871,"text":"一根就會抓 抓到會怎麼樣這個部分我們是不是請我們關務署署長來說明報告委員 加熱菸的部分它是因為現在都沒有通過健康風險評估所以我們是依照這個菸害防治法 移給地方的衛生局"},{"start":300.649,"end":316.963,"text":"那抓不抓?抓那你從頭抓了多少?目前電子菸的部分已經抓了47萬多條47萬多條47萬喔?對 剛剛加熱菸的部分 我更正一下加熱菸的部分47萬47萬?是那我們一根電子菸多少錢?大概 電子菸喔"},{"start":328.588,"end":346.576,"text":"我看很多人就是想辦法在國外買了以後,帶回來賣啊那為什麼他會帶回來賣?有利可圖啊就是他可能在國外,甚至國外的免稅商店都有在販售他可能買一支,一支大概多少錢?要不要一百塊?"},{"start":355.534,"end":367.231,"text":"一根起碼我覺得應該是一千塊以上不曉得對不對有沒有官員知道後面有人點頭一根多少錢那個戴口罩那位美女"},{"start":370.874,"end":390.046,"text":"這個各個國家賣的不太一樣那是以加熱煙的載具的話加熱煙的載具大概在800到1200電子煙的載具就比較便宜我猜對了你看大概1000電子煙的載具更便宜那他1000他帶回來在這個私底下這樣販售可以賺多少錢"},{"start":392.762,"end":410.515,"text":"以目前台灣的電子煙的那個載具在販售的話那從兩千塊到六千塊都有你看兩千六千所以他走私一根他賣一根就可以賺兩根啊這個利潤很高啊比去賣血還好賺"},{"start":413.51,"end":442.091,"text":"所以這個要從源頭看看怎麼樣如果是覺得說電子煙不好對下一代是一種強害是對我們的國民健康是有影響的大家要動起來特別麻煩莊部長那邊要好好處理一下平台你們要去好好整頓一下新加坡新加坡應該就沒有"},{"start":443.565,"end":470.763,"text":"嚴刑峻罰嘛七十八年吃口香腸你吐在路上馬上都被抓而且處罰嚴格所以接著請莊部長這部分麻煩你再想一下我現在那個其他人可以回去謝謝那部長我問一下現在的美國的關稅戰因為海關關稅這個都你管的現在情況到底怎麼樣"},{"start":472.359,"end":492.841,"text":"還有沒有在談?還是我們已經通過檢驗了?對等關稅的部分行政院會有政府院長還有OTN他們在跟美國持續的而且密切的在溝通當中那上一次談是什麼時候?談的情況還好嗎?"},{"start":495.505,"end":516.723,"text":"我想這個部分基於雙方的一個默契還不便對外說明那在適當時機的時候才會說明那談的時候你有沒有去參與過我想這個部分也不好在這邊說也是秘密喔秘密好多耶全國的民眾都不曉得秘密的答案是什麼我們就每天"},{"start":519.105,"end":535.213,"text":"整個待旦然後一些企業中小企業都不曉得怎麼辦是要等三個月過還是要折磨半年到一年通通不知道我想我們的談判小組一定會就國家整體的考量為國內以及產業爭取一個最大的利益對啊那問題是這些企業怎麼生存"},{"start":547.922,"end":572.17,"text":"其實大家都很苦,不曉得怎麼辦政府也提出了支持方案,我想在這個部分也編列了特別預算要在陳情大院這邊來做審議你們編預算他們都還沒領到啊是因為預算還沒有過啊,特別預算一直還沒有審議過啊所有預算都這樣,大家一直在等那個一人領一萬的普發現金等到現在錢也還沒下來"},{"start":574.177,"end":583.263,"text":"我講你要動起來啦,我們每個人都希望說政府要多多照顧去年稅收超徵5280億,不是沒錢啊是,所以政府也編列了相關的醫療支持措施你出去有機會去吃一下魷魚羹跟那個炒米粉"},{"start":596.673,"end":618.844,"text":"你知道現在一桌要多少錢嗎一桌就是一碗羹加一碗炒米粉以前我吃大概五六十塊,現在一百四十塊有空你去吃吃看所以一萬塊普發先輕還是有它的必要性通貨膨脹、物價飆漲、人民苦哈拜託部長也多講講好話多多動起來,謝謝"},{"start":623.031,"end":626.157,"text":"好 謝謝羅明財委員的質詢下一位請陳昭志委員質詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1117,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時25分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請衛福部邱部長以及財政部莊部長？"],["主席：邱部長、財政部莊部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：本席長期以來對於老人的福利健康是最關心的，我們一直在推動巴氏量表不要造成大家的困擾。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["羅委員明才：所以80歲以上免巴氏量表，就可以聘請外勞照顧，來幫助一些年輕人。以前有很多，像花旗銀行的那個管總很優秀，後來他沒辦法，我說：你怎麼會離開職場哩？他說他的爸爸只有一個啊！所以找不到人，他就自己跳下去照顧。那麼好的人才，對不對？金融方面，他算是很棒的一個，就是這樣的一個例子。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員明才：請問部長，免巴氏量表，這個什麼時候開始實施？"],["邱部長泰源：80歲以上免巴氏量表，那是勞動部……"],["羅委員明才：沒關係。"],["邱部長泰源：勞動部有表達配套措施在7月底能夠完成。"],["羅委員明才：就可以開始了喔！好，這也是一個德政，因為需要的人真的蠻多，希望可以多加強輔導一下，對於有需要的人、不知道怎麼申請的可以輔導，或者是做些宣傳來宣傳一下。","我看到路上很多都寫一個紅布條、大大的一條寫「全面禁止電子煙」，很多學校門口，臺北商專外面都有，我看了很振奮，我覺得那個布條要多貼。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員明才：但問題是貼了有沒有效果？"],["邱部長泰源：應該有效果。"],["羅委員明才：有效果喔？"],["邱部長泰源：嗯。"],["羅委員明才：現在抓到抽電子煙的會怎麼處罰？"],["邱部長泰源：那要分，看是從源頭或者販售，或者是個人，當然我們都會按照法規的規定來處理。"],["羅委員明才：抽電子煙會不會判刑？"],["邱部長泰源：本身喔？"],["羅委員明才：對。"],["邱部長泰源：罰款。我請吳署長說明。"],["吳署長昭軍：我想在使用者……"],["羅委員明才：使用者會怎麼樣？"],["吳署長昭軍：使用者的話就是最高罰1萬。"],["羅委員明才：罰1萬塊。"],["吳署長昭軍：是。"],["羅委員明才：加強宣導，好不好？"],["吳署長昭軍：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：你說罰1萬，根本沒在罰啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：有啦！有啦！"],["羅委員明才：我周邊所有人、我遇到的，從來沒有一個人被罰過。當然你會說因為我旁邊都沒有人抽電子煙，對啊！沒抽當然沒被罰。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們有罰一千多件。"],["羅委員明才：可是有一些人有抽，特別是年輕人，因為本席有接觸士農工商、年輕朋友有辦很多的活動。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員明才：他們也不講他有抽，我看他手上就握了一支，然後嘴巴就偷偷這樣比一下、比一下，後來我才知道不是在吃口香糖，是在抽電子煙。像這樣子要怎麼抓？"],["邱部長泰源：加熱菸還是電子煙？"],["羅委員明才：電子煙啦！電子煙其實禍國殃民。請問部長，我們一直說禁電子煙，全臺灣有多少支電子煙？"],["邱部長泰源：有多少人吸電子煙？"],["羅委員明才：有多少根嘛？那個好像可以重複抽吧？電子煙。"],["邱部長泰源：多少根喔？"],["羅委員明才：請旁邊的署長，你大概粗估有多少根？"],["吳署長昭軍：電子煙，它就是煙油加上一個載具。"],["羅委員明才：對。"],["吳署長昭軍：那個煙油是可以替換，載具可以重複使用。"],["羅委員明才：好，抽的時候必須要有那個，就叫載具……"],["吳署長昭軍：對，載具。"],["羅委員明才：就要有那一根嘛！那一支電子煙。全臺灣有幾支電子煙？"],["吳署長昭軍：這個沒有統計。"],["羅委員明才：大概。不知道？好。","那接著請財政部部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員好。"],["羅委員明才：部長，坊間到處都在賣啊！重點是還有一些人從國外譬如日本或者是香港，進來海關的時候，他就帶進來了，你們抓不抓、會不會處罰？超過10根、超過100根，你們做怎麼樣的處罰？"],["莊部長翠雲：1根就會抓。"],["羅委員明才：1根就會抓，抓到會怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們是不是請關務署署長來說明？"],["羅委員明才：請彭署長。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，加熱菸的部分是因為現在都沒有通過健康風險評估，所以我們是依照菸害防制法移給地方的衛生局。"],["羅委員明才：抓不抓？"],["彭署長英偉：抓。"],["羅委員明才：你從頭抓了多少？"],["彭署長英偉：目前電子煙的部分已經抓了四十七萬多條。"],["羅委員明才：47萬？"],["彭署長英偉：對。加熱菸的部分。"],["羅委員明才：這個數字很大。"],["彭署長英偉：我更正一下，加熱菸的部分是47萬。"],["羅委員明才：47萬？"],["彭署長英偉：是，我們一年大概抓……"],["羅委員明才：1根電子煙大概多少錢？"],["彭署長英偉：電子煙？抱歉我不曉得……"],["羅委員明才：我看很多人就是想辦法在國外買了以後，帶回來賣，為什麼他會帶回來賣？有利可圖啊！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["羅委員明才：他可能在國外，甚至國外的免稅商店都有在販售，他可能買1支，1支大概多少錢？要不要100塊？"],["彭署長英偉：沒有……"],["羅委員明才：吃米不知道米價，你在管這個的！我覺得1根起碼應該是1,000塊以上，不曉得對不對？有沒有官員知道？後面有人點頭，1根多少錢？戴口罩的那位美女。"],["吳署長昭軍：各個國家賣的不大一樣，以加熱菸的載具來說，加熱菸的載具大概在800到1,200，電子煙的載具就比較便宜。"],["羅委員明才：我猜對了，你看！大概1,000啦。"],["吳署長昭軍：電子煙的載具更便宜。"],["羅委員明才：1,000，他帶回來，私底下這樣販售可以賺多少錢？"],["吳署長昭軍：以目前臺灣電子煙載具在販售的狀況，從2,000塊到6,000塊都有。"],["羅委員明才：你看！2,000、6,000，所以他走私1根，他賣1根就可以賺兩根，這個利潤很高，比去賣血還好賺。所以這個要從源頭看看怎麼樣處理，如果是覺得電子煙不好，對下一代是一種戕害、對我們的國民健康是有影響的，大家要動起來。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員明才：特別麻煩莊部長那邊要好好處理一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我們也成立平台來加強取締。"],["羅委員明才：對，平台你們要去好好整理一下，整頓一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["羅委員明才：新加坡應該就沒有，嚴刑峻罰嘛！新加坡連吃口香糖吐在路上馬上都被抓，而且處罰很嚴格。","接著請莊部長。莊部長，這部分麻煩你再想一下，其他人可以回去，謝謝。部長，我想問一下，現在美國的關稅戰，因為海關、關稅都是你管的，現在情況到底怎麼樣，還有沒有在談，還是我們已經那個通過檢驗了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對等關稅的部分，行政院會由鄭副院長，還有OTN，他們跟美國持續的而且密切的在溝通當中。"],["羅委員明才：好，上一次談是什麼時候？談的情況還好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分基於雙方的默契，還不便對外說明，在適當時機的時候才會說明。"],["羅委員明才：好，談的時候，你有沒有去參與過？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分也不好在這邊說。"],["羅委員明才：也是秘密？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["羅委員明才：秘密好多。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有很多。"],["羅委員明才：全國的民眾都不曉得秘密的答案是什麼，我們就每天枕戈待旦，然後一些企業、中小企業都不曉得怎麼辦，是要等三個月過，還是要折磨半年到一年，通通不知道，不然你也講一些讓大家稍微聞香一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想我們臺美談判小組一定會就國家整體的考量，為國內以及產業爭取一個最大的利益。"],["羅委員明才：對，問題是這些企業怎麼生存？其實大家都很苦，不曉得怎麼辦。"],["莊部長翠雲：政府也提出了支持方案，我想在這個部分也編列了特別預算，要再陳請大院這邊來做審議。"],["羅委員明才：你們編預算，他們都還沒領到啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是因為預算還沒有過，特別預算一直還沒有審議過。"],["羅委員明才：所有預算都這樣，大家一直在等那個1人領1萬的普發現金，等到現在錢也還沒下來。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個東西……"],["羅委員明才：部長，你要動起來，我們每個人都希望政府多多照顧。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們行政部門大概該做的都已經在做，還是積極在做。"],["羅委員明才：去年稅收超徵5,280億，不是沒錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，所以政府也編列了相關的預算做支持措施。"],["羅委員明才：現在人民苦哈哈，真的！你出去有機會去吃一下魷魚羹跟炒米粉。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["羅委員明才：你知道現在一組要多少錢嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：一組應該差不多是……"],["羅委員明才：一組就是一碗羹加一碗炒米粉，以前我吃大概五、六十塊，現在140塊，有空你去吃吃看。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["羅委員明才：所以1萬塊普發現金還是有它的必要性，通貨膨脹，物價飆漲，人民苦哈哈，拜託部長也多講講好話、多多動起來，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢。","下一位請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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統計全球大概有3700萬的青少年吸食菸品電子菸瀏覽超過34億次然後許多國家的青少年電子菸吸食率高於成年人那在國內我們看到無論是高中生或者是國中生他們吸食電子菸的比例也都是呈現上升的一個情況但是衛福部查緝非法的網站只罰了7件"},{"start":47.563,"end":57.112,"text":"總金額一千零四十萬為什麼這麼多非法的電子菸在網路上面販售我們現在只罰了七件我想罰了一個數目請吳署長這邊報告一下"},{"start":67.686,"end":89.121,"text":"來 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謝謝謝謝主席各位出列起功"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1073,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，WHO今年再度示警，青少年吸食電子煙成癮氾濫的問題非常嚴重，他們統計全球大概有3,700萬的青少年吸食菸品，電子煙瀏覽超過34億次，然後許多國家的青少年電子煙吸食率高於成年人，在國內我們看到無論是高中生或者國中生，他們吸食電子煙的比例也都呈現上升的一個情況。但是衛福部查緝非法的網站只罰了7件，總金額1,040萬。為什麼這麼多非法的電子煙在網路上面販售，我們現在只罰了7件？"],["邱部長泰源：罰的數目，是不是請吳署長這邊報告一下？"],["王委員育敏：署長請說。"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，我們的確也看到如委員所示的狀況，所以我們這兩年裡面，從稽查到追源到現在的裁處，其實所有的裁處，從去年底才開始有裁處的動作，現在的業者配合，以今年度來講，委員所呈現的這些相關數字大概已經獲得相當的改善。尤其是今年度，包括Google、Meta、Treads、旋轉平台等各類網路平台，目前都配合我們相關的政策，主動做類組管理，還有我們通報以後下架跟停止解析的部分……"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求，一些非法網站刊登電子煙，你們一定要全力阻斷，不能讓青少年去接觸。","另外一個，5月27號電子煙查緝平台已經成立了。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員育敏：那各部會的分工為何？我要請法務部也上來，法務部是不是你們的成員？"],["主席：法務部的主任檢察官。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["王委員育敏：是嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員育敏：在非法查緝的這一塊，法務部的代表，你們在報告裡面說了，這是我看到另外一個更嚴重的部分。請法務部的代表來，是哪一位？"],["林主任檢察官劭燁：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：好。你們自己在報告裡面說，有不肖業者將新興毒品添加到電子煙油當中，在夜店或社群媒體跟年輕族群兜售。這個其實是很嚴重的！俗稱「上頭煙」、「睡眠煙彈」、「喪屍煙彈」，戕害身心健康至鉅。這件事情，我覺得這個比吸食電子煙本身還要再更嚴重數百倍，因為他已經是吸毒、是犯法，然後他添加在這裡面，讓一些年輕人或是青少年吸食。這一部分法務部的查緝行動是什麼？因為我看你通篇的報告，你們查緝了多少，這一種添加毒品到電子煙油當中的，你破獲了多少、你們追查了多少，在你的報告裡面通通都沒有提，那你是不是可以告訴本席你們具體查獲的數字？"],["林主任檢察官劭燁：報告委員，有關新興毒品有加入電子煙裡面，其實我們都有責成臺高檢署持續辦理安居專案……"],["王委員育敏：你們破獲多少案件，你告訴本席。"],["林主任檢察官劭燁：有關安居專案第12波的部分，像是有關依托咪酯，其實已經有查到三百多公斤。"],["王委員育敏：幾件？你講清楚一點，幾件？"],["林主任檢察官劭燁：我們是以查獲毒品的重量來計算。"],["王委員育敏：查獲毒品……"],["林主任檢察官劭燁：對，這是重量。"],["王委員育敏：我是說電子煙裡面摻有毒品的，你們查獲多少數量？"],["林主任檢察官劭燁：電子煙的部分，這個數據可能要再確認，因為電子煙的部分原則上還是由衛福部在辦理，我們主要是處理毒品，所以我們是計算毒品的部分。"],["王委員育敏：這個就是我要點出的問題，關於已經涉及毒品，我覺得法務部的角色太被動，你認為主辦還是衛福部，但這個其實是涉及到犯罪，應該法務部的主動性角色要很強，這就是今天我要點出的問題。既然已經成立電子煙查緝平台，那每一個部會應該都有主動性的角色，而不是全部都是衛福部。像這個已經涉及到犯罪，去偵辦犯罪是法務部的職責，不是被動式地配合衛福部，你應該要有主動偵辦的能力，因為這一塊跟毒品是整個連動的，而查緝毒品就是法務部的職責所在。","所以我要求法務部，在這一塊你們應該要有一個專案好好地查緝，因為這個其實對於年輕人的危害真的是太重大了，它是假冒成電子煙，讓他在不知情的情況下去吸毒，對於青少年或年輕人來講，這個部分是真的很嚴重。","所以最後，部長，我要求你們，你們的電子煙查緝平台既然是5月27號成立，那各部會的責任要非常明確。"],["邱部長泰源：是。對，我們有強化各任務分組的工作。"],["王委員育敏：對，然後主動性要出來，而且你們定期的成效要跟外界做報告。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分，我希望你要將書面給本席。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員育敏：然後要定期公布你們的成效，在這個部分……"],["邱部長泰源：好，是。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得，查緝電子煙不是只有衛福部，法務部也要動起來，數發部也要動起來。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員育敏：每一個部會，如果組成這樣的查緝平台，大家都有主動性的責任，大家一起來防制電子煙氾濫的問題，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。","下一位請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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午安好午安"},{"start":7.745,"end":35.182,"text":"因為整體的煙害防治法的主管機關還是在衛福部而且上個月衛福部也跨部會召開了電子煙瓶的那個查緝平台部長最近有很多聲音都說電子煙抓不完危害反而也沒這麼大乾脆就開放算了所以我想問清楚全面禁止電子煙還是不是我們國家政策會不會鬆動"},{"start":37.643,"end":62.77,"text":"為什麼這樣問呢因為昨天BBC才報導說像英國也開放收緊電子菸管制因為各國的經驗都顯示電子菸便宜好買很容易吸引青少年那一旦習慣了後果就很難處理尤其是法規不清執法不立的情況下這些東西根本就是藏在社區裡面甚至變成藥物濫用的入口所以部長你覺得台灣的青少年"},{"start":63.79,"end":88.14,"text":"現在到底好不好能夠容易買得到電子煙啊部長你覺得他們真的知道這些電子煙是違法的嗎因為電子煙我們是沒有規劃有任何開放的方向可是有社工告訴我們有少年甚至拿著煙害防治法跟他們說裡面又沒有寫電子煙違法我知道法裡面"},{"start":88.86,"end":112.013,"text":"那現在都叫做類菸品的原因那當然社會大眾尤其青少年對這塊的理解還是不夠清楚這要麻煩部會宣傳你一定要趕快補上讓大家知道否則他拿著說沒有啊今天又沒有講說電子菸事實上是違法的不然今天要討論的事實上是茶器那我就要讓你知道現在很多青少年不是只買電子菸"},{"start":113.714,"end":126.981,"text":"那還被拉進銷售鏈裡面變成中間人可以看到這流程圖就知道今天照片實際上是青少年實際跟社工分享的他們透過LINE IG TRADE聊天的群組"},{"start":128.602,"end":147.203,"text":"群組裡邊接觸到電子業還被上游廠商用代理利潤發放喔這邊寫得很清楚喔代理利潤發放是想每個月賺點零用錢的夥伴們說巴士我來教學你然後銷售技巧呢品牌的認定呢權管呢事實上是代理的是正品喔那這樣子的一個"},{"start":148.124,"end":164.18,"text":"找下限的方式來層層分類所以我想問部長這樣的行為是不是已經違法 陰害防治法第32條 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謝謝 我想跟委員報告我去年到現在已經召開七次主持的會議其實也針對人員的員額我們都有在我們內政部包括人事處還有人總這邊有一些是需要傾徵那原本業務移撥的部分的話就是移民署大概會有將近50位同仁要移撥到未來的新住民發展署那另外傾徵員額大概也要將近50個那這個部分我們都有跟人事處跟人事總署都有所以大概會是100個"},{"start":188.018,"end":206.09,"text":"我們認為目前的最適規模我們未來成長大概也是抓到100也是在100個左右是的好這個我希望他明確所以然後我想次長你應該也不希望這個法案耽擱對不對你也希望這個署趕快來成立對不對"},{"start":208.184,"end":231.895,"text":"我覺得這個只要是政策我們都會推動政策都會推動因為今天本來是希望今天可以做但是因為這個大家議程的安排或怎麼樣當然我們尊重這邊主席的安排但沒有關係我本席是非常希望它可以盡速來成立那我們再三強調這個新的新住民發展組絕對不能被攬股啦好不好如果我覺得這有共識的話大家可能就會比較安心一點那第二個就是人力的支援啦我們也希望內政部這邊更加積極因為"},{"start":234.716,"end":254.942,"text":"你拖一天就是移民署累一天嘛移民署撥走五十個人之後移民署既有利誤會不會受影響我再追問一下這個我要不要請我們署長來補充一下好啊 可以啊 移民署署長有請因為成立性的署其實兩個單位就有工作屬性會調整屬性會調整嘛 一部分工作會分出去嘛 對不對所以你五十人規模會有什麼樣的具體影響我也來探討一下"},{"start":257.25,"end":266.048,"text":"委員好我們這邊跟委員做一個報告齁其實這個目前為止我們新住民基本法相關的一些業務齁那"},{"start":268.089,"end":290.151,"text":"我們移民署現在在承辦新住民的這些相關業務裡面總共有13項業務然後因為我們新住民基本法裡面在新住民的定義裡面有做了一個擴張所以會有所謂的擴大辦理的業務總共有15項然後因為我們也把所謂的技術跟所謂的專業的移民也納進去了所以會有我們"},{"start":292.433,"end":319.045,"text":"56項的一個新增業務所以到時候我們移民署原本的既有的13項業務我們會持續的來推動那新增跟擴大的部分可能就這個新發署來接續以上所以50個人基本上對移民署來講衝擊就還可以因為本來就是這50個人本來就是在做跟新住民相關的嘛你只是換一個服務單位這樣子的概念對不對是好那你們這個人力轉調計畫的一些期程你們自己有沒有內部抓時間表"},{"start":321.547,"end":350.934,"text":"沒關係都可以看誰要回答因為這個主要我們必須得配合所謂我們的這個這個新住民基本法的一個施行日的實踐嘛所以說早一點處理完其實就早一點把這個短期資源跟中間籌備工作趕快做一個了結嘛對不對所以本期當然是非常希望這個東西可以盡速來處理那最後一點點時間針對各個委員現在提出來的版本組織法律修正其實我覺得內容大同小異請問這個我們行政機關這邊針對法條的內容有什麼意見或者是不同意的地方嗎"},{"start":351.874,"end":365.803,"text":"我想簡單跟委員報告,我今天看到的各個版本部分可能有一些是屬於並非屬於三級機關的權責,譬如說國家考試,另外還有社會保險,社會保險因為在基本法裡面沒有這項規定,所以可能會逾越母法沒有授權。"},{"start":369.645,"end":391.73,"text":"那你們有沒有跟提案委員提早進行溝通跟說明呢我們收到版本之後其實也盡量趕快來先整理好 因為我希望就盡速說明嘛既然今天還沒有要進入到主條審查的階段那我們行政機關應該是利用時間早一點把你們會認為可能會自然難行的部分提早跟提案委員說明那我也相信各黨黨團會提前進行整合讓後續的審查速度可以加快那只要前期溝通做好後續速度加快"},{"start":392.31,"end":406.148,"text":"趕快讓這個東西落袋為安趕快拍板那我想趕快讓對我們的新住民朋友施以更大的援手讓這個品質可以更加提升希望喔這個不管黨派這應該是一個這個跨黨派的共識啦希望我們可以盡快努力 盡速達成 好嗎市長辛苦了 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時11分）吳次長，有請。"],["主席：請吳次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：吳次長午安，大家辛苦了。我們現在擔心，上次修正行政院組織法，增加一個署的空間是為了配合我們內政委員會修正新住民基本法，明定要有一個相關的專責機關，當初大家的共識基本上是這樣，但其實大家都挺擔心的，就是一個署在那個地方，每個部都虎視眈眈，所以我在詢問相關內容之前，要先問一下，這個新住民發展署最後會不會被人家攔胡？也就是多了一個署，到最後卻不是新住民發展署，有沒有可能出現這樣的事情？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員指教，基本法第四條就明定要成立中央三級機關，我們從去年開始公告之後，就一直在朝這個目標努力，所以我們都已經整理完了，大概有4個組、12個科、100人的規模。"],["牛委員煦庭：就你的瞭解，有沒有其他部會在期待這個新的員額？"],["吳次長堂安：我可能只能focus在內政部的業務。"],["牛委員煦庭：你有沒有把握說現在內政部是走最快、最積極，而且最接近的？應該是吧！對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：我們一直都走很快喔！謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：我就是要提醒一下，如果最後被人家攔胡的話，其實是違反新住民基本法的，對不對？政府一體，政府機關不能自己做出一些讓政策打架的事情，對不對？所以吳次長應該會非常積極地推動這件事情，對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：我一直在做。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這事關我們要不要快速通關，很多人很緊張，就是因為擔心這個署到最後被人家攔胡。我聽起來應該是不會啦！因為今天朝野各黨在談這件事情的時候，基本上大家都是對焦在新住民的政策，我們也希望相關的事情趕快處理好。","現在針對內容的部分來跟次長做一下討論。現在籌備小組開了很多次的籌備會議，基本上你們有點人仰馬翻，因為成立新的署之後才會有新的員額，新的人進來負責新的事務，但是在籌備階段，每多籌備一天，對內政部來講，尤其是對移民署來講，都是很大的負擔。因為就本席瞭解，相關業務本來都是移民署下面的一個科在做，也就是以這個科的人力、員額數量在處理未來一個署要做的事情，包含籌備工作，其實是非常、非常辛苦的。我想請教，如果這個法案順利通過，趕快讓新住民發展署成立之後，人力的缺口要怎麼樣來增補？要從移民署調派，還是要重新招考？大概會有多少員額？這部分有沒有相關資料可以提供？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝，我想跟委員報告，我從去年到現在已經召開並主持7次會議，針對人員的員額都有和我們內政部的人事處以及人事總處討論，有一些是需要請增的，原本業務移撥的部分，移民署大概會有將近50個同仁移撥到未來的新住民發展署，另外是請增員額大概也會將近50個，這個部分我們都有跟人事處及人事總處一起討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以大概會是100個員額，50個新增、50個從移民署移撥？"],["吳次長堂安：目前的最適規模和未來的成長大概都是抓100個。"],["牛委員煦庭：也是在100個左右？"],["吳次長堂安：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望這個部分能夠明確。","我想次長應該也不希望這個法案耽擱，對不對？你也希望這個署趕快成立，對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：只要是政策，我們都會推動。"],["牛委員煦庭：政策都會推動？"],["吳次長堂安：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：本來是希望今天有一個……但是因為議程的安排或怎麼樣，當然我們尊重主席的安排，這些都沒有關係，本席是非常希望它可以儘速來成立。我們再三強調，這個新住民發展署絕對不能被攔胡，如果對此有共識的話，大家可能就會比較安心一點。","第二個就是人力資源，我們也希望內政部這邊更加積極，因為你拖一天就是移民署累一天嘛！移民署撥走50個人之後，移民署既有的業務會不會受影響？我再追問一下。"],["吳次長堂安：這個我可不可以請署長來補充一下？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，可以呀！移民署署長有請。"],["吳次長堂安：因為成立新的署，兩個單位的工作屬性就會調整。"],["牛委員煦庭：屬性會調整嘛！因為工作會被分出去嘛，對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以50人的規模會有什麼樣的具體影響，我也來探討一下。"],["林署長宏恩：委員好，我在這邊跟委員做個報告。其實到目前為止，有關新住民基本法相關的一些業務，我們移民署現在承辦新住民的這些相關業務總共有13項，然後因為在新住民基本法裡面，對新住民的定義有擴張，所以會有所謂擴大辦理的業務，總共有15項。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["林署長宏恩：因為我們也把所謂的技術跟專業的移民也納進去了，所以會有56項的新增業務，到時候移民署原本既有的13項業務會持續推動，至於新增跟擴大的部分可能就會由新發署接續。以上。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以50個人基本上對移民署來講，衝擊算是還可以，因為這50個人本來就是在做跟新住民相關的嘛！你只是換了一個服務的單位，是這樣的概念對不對？"],["林署長宏恩：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們人力轉調計畫的一些期程，自己內部有沒有抓時間表啊？沒關係，都可以，看誰要回答。"],["林署長宏恩：因為這個主要……我們必須配合這個基本法的……"],["牛委員煦庭：還是要配合新住民基本法的時間，所以早一點處理完其實就是早一點把這個短期支援跟中間籌備工作趕快做一個了結，對不對？所以本席當然是非常希望這個東西可以儘速處理。","最後一點點時間，針對各個委員現在提出組織法的修正版本，其實我覺得內容是大同小異，請問行政機關這邊，針對法條的內容有什麼意見，或是有不同意的地方嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：我想簡單跟委員報告，今天看到的各個版本，可能有些並非屬於三級機關的權責，譬如國家考試，另外還有社會保險，因為社會保險在基本法裡面沒有這一項規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，沒有，跟基本法也不能……"],["吳次長堂安：所以可能會逾越，因為本身母法沒有授權。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有沒有跟提案委員提早進行溝通跟說明？"],["吳次長堂安：我們收到版本之後，其實也是盡量趕快先整理。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，因為我希望能儘速說明，既然今天還沒有要進入逐條審查的階段，行政機關應該要利用時間，早一點把你們認為可能會窒礙難行的部分提早跟提案委員說明，我也相信各黨黨團會提前進行整合，讓後續的審查速度可以加快。只要前期溝通做好，後續速度加快，趕快讓這個東西落袋為安、趕快拍板，也能趕快對我們的新住民的朋友施以更大的援手，讓品質更加提升。希望不管是什麼黨派，這應該是一個跨黨派的共識，希望可以儘快努力、儘速達成，好嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本聯席會。委員牛煦庭、吳琪銘所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等21人、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(三)委員張智倫等17\n人、(四)委員葉元之等21人及(五)委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草\n案」案；二、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等21人、(三)國民黨黨\n團、(四)委員張智倫等17人、(五)委員葉元之等21人及(六)委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部\n新住民發展署組織法草案」案","agenda_id":"1146101_00002"}}},{"id":"162687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a735e280cae962aa3e398de439af110e932907d28bbaa3ae0234482f4bba2738ffd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:22:36 - 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大家午安 大家好本席在這裏有提出住宅法第4條的提案說明裏面規定政府主管單位的新建的社會住宅提供一定的比例給社會最經濟和社會弱勢的家庭"},{"start":31.016,"end":33.318,"text":"但是我們常常聽到的就是 台灣有很多隔代教養相關的新聞尤其重重的原因就是爸爸跟媽媽都沒有在所謂老舊未成年的經歷及後世輩的阿公阿嬤來請用"},{"start":52.313,"end":54.974,"text":"如果不行,他們所照顧的孩子是身心障礙者,阿公阿嬤負擔更加重。但是以我們現在的住宅法,在四條規定,"},{"start":68.098,"end":73.463,"text":"必須有修正改觀這個古代教養的社會弱勢可能他會沒辦法去申請社會主宰的資格的問題尤其現行的第二項第七款所規定的身心障礙要要求省人"},{"start":91.801,"end":97.747,"text":"但是在阿孫、孫仔的時候男婢生的,但是他身心障礙者都沒有康復的時候,我認為現行的第二款、第五款所規定的特殊的情形的家庭要求"},{"start":114.844,"end":121.767,"text":"要阿公阿嬤沒套路才有辦法去申請但是在這個過程當中我們有看到這個家庭有非常辛苦但是阿公阿嬤他還沒滿65歲所以他有一點點套路但是他去申請就不符合所以本席的提案就是說可以新增住宅第四"},{"start":142.597,"end":161.347,"text":"第二項第四款規定可以提出我們有未成年人的身心障礙的家庭可以給他們機會再交代教養的阿公阿嬤有帶小孩的時候可以給他們"},{"start":164.249,"end":174.757,"text":"去申請社會住宅的社會的弱勢的範圍中希望大家可以支持本省所提案我們不好的老人家也不好可以幫助的人讓這個社會的弱勢可以受到更好的幫助還可以減輕他們家庭的負擔以上"},{"start":196.51,"end":197.585,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162685","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a7303ff12b275a03aa998de439af110e932907d28bbaa3ae02335e519e7a80233805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:18:09 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謝謝主席 我們各位委員還有我們在場的各位內政部官員"},{"start":11.755,"end":40.65,"text":"那個高房價問題一直是我們重大的問題大家希望追求居住正義但是呢我們的這個相關的打房政策一直沒有辦法有效的解決特別是我們弱勢團體他的租屋問題所以在社會住宅他保障弱勢團體那麼他保留了一定的比例去給這個經濟或社會弱勢那現行的住宅法規定是提供給經濟或社會弱勢者比例是從最初的10%"},{"start":42.09,"end":60.695,"text":"提高到40%但是呢事实上显然是不足的那么而且呢我们弱势族群在申请社宅的时候呢也面临数量不够甚至租金过高的问题那么使得社会住宅的数量远远不及满足就是我们"},{"start":61.255,"end":75.291,"text":"弱勢族群他們的需求導致很多人是看得到吃不到根據內政部還有第三方的資料推估現在全台的租屋人口已經達到300萬人所以在這邊也插播一下"},{"start":76.472,"end":95.093,"text":"也希望我們內政部應該確實去執行有關於租屋補貼的事情不要因為想要政黨之間的惡鬥或者中央想要壓縮地方的相關的資金然後在房屋補助的部分來動"},{"start":96.554,"end":119.78,"text":"手脚在这边我们还是要帮广大全国有300多万的租屋主模来做请命那另外呢在今年市场上主动投入这个包租贷款的住宅大概15万户那么但是呢在这些包租贷款的设宅的落实比例也达到56%所以扩大设宅的"},{"start":120.38,"end":145.667,"text":"这个弱势族群的比例居住权是有其必要性的所以本席呢在有关于我们这一次住宅法第四条的修正呢就是把主管机关与民间新办的社宅需要至少能够将50%的社宅优先给经济或社会弱势者承租就是我刚才所说的"},{"start":146.047,"end":166.801,"text":"就是过去虽然有提高但是显然不足应该要要再把它提高那另外呢也提升育儿家庭的这个优待的条件把原来第四条的修正第四条草案是育有未成年子女两人以上呢把它修改为育有未成年子女就可以符合这个"},{"start":168.004,"end":196.954,"text":"入住的條件優惠的條件那麼鼓勵生育降低申請門檻這也比較符合目前我們廣大的租屋族以及也符合我們政府掃紙化能夠改善掃紙化的一個國家的政策那麼今天修法是一個歷程也謝謝我們的內政委員會還有我們內政部關於大家一起來共同的來推動希望住宅法能夠盡快完成修正以上謝謝"},{"start":199.684,"end":200.23,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162682","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162682","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73d96dd22ef693497f98de439af110e932907d28bbaa3ae02303e26e77da1de7db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:05:59 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仔細各位委員還有政府部門那根據統計呢截至去年9月30日全國中央跟地方政府規劃的社會住宅大概122,983戶那其中已經完成的有109,596戶規劃中的大概有13,387戶那根據住宅法的規定呢經濟或社會弱勢者保留戶要佔總數的40%"},{"start":40.411,"end":59.8,"text":"這代表全國大概有49193戶是為弱勢族群保留的這也意味著有將近5萬戶的住宅呢像是對社會福利有高度需求者因此我們都很清楚的知道社會住宅政策不只是住宅政策更是社會福利政策"},{"start":60.26,"end":74.028,"text":"他同時要滿足人民住得起的需求也要滿足弱勢者住進去受服務的需求所以當下社會福利進入社會住宅有三種法定方式一個是直接提供租任戶的福利服務"},{"start":75.663,"end":96.448,"text":"社會設施進駐社會住宅的社區還有社會福利服務人員或團體定點的提供服務基於這些現況本席認為要明確的定義福利服務的為住宅法的立法宗旨並且明確賦予中央跟地方的社會福利主管機關在本"},{"start":97.008,"end":115.155,"text":"法中的義務跟角色所以具體的修法重點如下第一把福利服務納入立法目的確立社宅跟社福聯動的政策方向第二未來服務資源要投入到包租代管的弱勢家庭當中來彌補社會住宅量能不足也提高"},{"start":115.854,"end":138.994,"text":"我們的房東跟業者社會福利機構的參與意願第三中央主管機關要會同社會福利主管機關共同訂定社會住宅裡應設立哪些社福設施跟服務的內容規模補助方式並且社宅內的社會福利資源提供可結合民間資源辦理第四對當社會福利機構進駐"},{"start":140.895,"end":169.466,"text":"設宅並轉租給弱勢家庭的二代房東模式那相關的租金訂定及再轉租的對象租金規範要更明確才能夠確實落實第五先說我們的政府調查不符基本居住標準家庭的查核範圍避免佔用在此本席請提出我們社會住宅部分條文的修正草案也敬請各位委員支持以上謝謝"},{"start":171.331,"end":173.163,"text":"好 謝謝林岳勤委員提案說明"}]}},{"id":"162678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73f102ed37430b7b13c914d80f272b5bb4907d28bbaa3ae02313fc10165ccd88f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:09:20 - 09:12:08","影片長度":"00:02:48","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團、（三）委員張智倫等17人、（四）委員葉元之等21人及（五）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團、（二）委員鄭天財Sra 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大家早安有濟於新住民在台人口數逐年地在增加截到目前為止已超過60萬人涵蓋了跨國婚姻規劃國籍者長期拘留外籍人士外籍專業人才及留台工作的僑外生等多元族群已經成為我國社會組成中不可忽視的重要一環為了保障在台生活的權益並促進融入本國的社會本席自上任以來致力推動"},{"start":34.189,"end":50.399,"text":"這個制定新住民權益保障專法那立法院呢也在2024年的7月16號三讀通過新住民基本法完成新住民權益專法重要立法的里程碑那依該法第四條明定內政部應設置新住民事務專責中央三級行政機關以統籌規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進新住民就學就業"},{"start":57.203,"end":71.61,"text":"賠利關懷協助及多元服務之相關事宜那為了落實相關的法令本席提出新住民發展署組織法草案及內政部組織法第五條修正草案期望以設置長設型的中央專責機關處理新住民事務"},{"start":74.511,"end":77.274,"text":"兼顧政策統籌跟個別的服務並強化語言通譯、社會福利、社會參與媒體禁用及文化推進等功能希望委員跟黨團版本之間能夠達到高度的共識為對少數條文內容還是要進一步"},{"start":93.773,"end":101.278,"text":"這個協商的這個空間例如部分的版本將新住民參與國家考試之事項列為新設專責機關之執掌然而以台灣現行的體制國家考試公務人員的這個考選權序保障及這個退服均由考試院專責辦理因此呢這樣的修法內容恐怕非內政部所屬機關的全責範圍本席期盼今天大家不分黨派能一起理性討論"},{"start":121.733,"end":133.459,"text":"凝聚出共識的這個版本那最後呢本席衷心的想表達新住民是在台落地生根參與台灣並認同台灣的重要社會成員設置新住民發展署不僅可強化政府對新住民政策之統籌推動更有助提升國家整體社會融合跟國際的形象那實為我國面對長期人口結構的轉變跟多元社會的發展趨勢之必要作為那本席的提案呢希望各位"},{"start":151.067,"end":151.267,"text":"我們下一位請張志倫"}]}},{"id":"162702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a739179fe6fe148811f9525394415ce037cfe48e1f12328ce24c1dff94e1de332545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"10:05:45 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收藥的時候這都不會涉及圖利問題因為法律並無禁止但讓人家無法接受是衣服會始終用一些非常奇怪的理由搪塞"},{"start":321.248,"end":347.419,"text":"說什麼遠洋漁業啊這個要很長很長的效期完全沒有負起主責機關應有的協調跟改革責任我們希望這個部分也能夠好好處理我已經追蹤了很久我想八大工學會這個聽這個都非常的清楚他們的困難點那我希望整個衛福部能夠統一快速統一政策否則部長上面喊得很大聲那下面沒有辦法趕快牽手合作不願意改進那不要再讓病人因為體制的錯亂而"},{"start":350,"end":368.914,"text":"無藥可用 市長我剛剛在談的時候您都沒有看我我真的希望衣服會的部分謝謝你 我們就是一個合理的要求因為現在他們甚至要求校期要六個月以上那這是沒有依據的一個說法校期不能任意延長也不能任意縮短簡單的說尊重他的儲存時間所應該有的這個校期國家衛福部醫院應該率先來做表率好謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":379.079,"end":379.58,"text":"其實是大作業"}]}},{"id":"162722","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162722","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73d3a2a2744539e4109525394415ce037c1d1dd57576f62286aa4188f185dccfdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:09:48 - 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疫苗還有就是血品製劑今天比較沒有提到血品製劑血品製劑我有跟國醫局的蔡局長講了好幾次就是說台灣目前對於血品製劑有沒有一些比較好的準備方案"},{"start":295.21,"end":320.444,"text":"軍醫局如果真的面臨這樣未來在不管是特殊狀況包括大型的災難或者是戰爭的時候那這個學品製劑如何能夠有效的去從他的準備還有他的應用都能夠達到好的一個流程跟必要的一些戰備準備那他很有信心他說他們都準備好了所以大家不用擔心"},{"start":322.025,"end":349.827,"text":"大家將來在處理的時候呢可以信賴目前的準備當然我們也要去驗證它那被它驗證我們希望有機會呢多了解以後呢能夠把這個準備也做得更好那我們再往下看就是利用這個機會我們也知道其實113年那個時候並沒有川普有關於關稅的這些造成的影響就是我們自己本來就是在準備的功課"},{"start":350.908,"end":379.287,"text":"那剛好又有這個關稅的挑戰情形之下如果能夠化危機為轉機這是我們可以來面對的那這部分我相信等一下我的老師張宏仁老師可能也會做壓軸的報告因為這個選在這個張宏仁老師前面就是希望能夠把這機會在壓軸的部分請這個張宏仁老師給我們的一些建議還有一些指導"},{"start":379.887,"end":404.764,"text":"不過基本上建立本土產業鏈來整合進全球供應鏈的部分真的非常重要剛剛也提到醫療的產業基本上應該要把它納入為經貿的戰略要分散供應來源那說是很簡單可是剛剛也提到江署長針對區域供應鏈的想法我們也曾經討論到"},{"start":406.874,"end":431.849,"text":"有一些我們也知道其實現在原料要都依賴中國跟印度我們有沒有機會把我們的鄰近國家能夠跟他們一起來討論來整合理念相近國家也好或是民主制度國家也好比如說韓國日本或者是菲律賓南向的這些國家我們大家來分析一下"},{"start":433.69,"end":455.832,"text":"原料藥的製造基本上這是一個對環境衝擊非常大的一種狀況所以我們自己的假設以抗生素為例或者是以很重要的某一些的原料藥為例我們有沒有機會跟這些國家互相的交換哪一些國家準備A哪一些國家準備B哪一些國家準備C"},{"start":456.713,"end":473.311,"text":"那在這個準備這個原料的過程裡面怎麼樣去評估對環境的衝擊這個A國家是不是在準備的時候他們的環境比較能夠容許這樣的環境衝擊然後在台灣當然我們需要經過很完整的"},{"start":474.312,"end":498.885,"text":"準備還有對環境的衝擊我們也希望能夠用高科技的方式來減少也要讓民眾知道為什麼原料要這麼懶準備對環境的衝擊如何能夠得到民眾的支持也得到大家的共識那如果能夠透過這樣的區域整合的話對原料我們就不會太依賴在某一些國家我們也期待這樣的模式這個是需要"},{"start":499.866,"end":514.063,"text":"納為一個經貿戰略的同時那也是一種對於醫藥的這個供應上的一個戰略的這種處置的需求所以我們很期待國家整體戰略規劃跟長期的資源的挹注都非常重要那這部分"},{"start":515.525,"end":541.412,"text":"當然這個特別條例的預算如果能夠成立的話相信對未來的資源的應用就會更有助益那很感謝今天的專家學姐提供給我們這麼多好的建議讓我未來在問政的時候可以針對大家所提供的意見也給我們的這個主管機關在未來執行上我們會持續的去掌握到各種的進度再度感謝大家 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處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算提出書面報告後死的動資等29案決定以上29案報告完均均同意動資並提報院會"},{"start":1824.223,"end":1835.108,"text":"國防部部長顧立雄軍備局局長林文祥及海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮報告委員盧美林等12人質詢軍有國防部部長顧立雄軍醫局醫務管理處處長王玉琦戰略規劃師師長黃文綺空軍司令部參謀長李慶然"},{"start":1842.771,"end":1856.221,"text":"知通電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥及國家中山科學研究院院長李士強等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡大結束二委員黃仁許巧欣所提書面質詢列入記錄勘定公報"},{"start":1857.822,"end":1878.361,"text":"三委員書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部與二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定討論事項處理運會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議公布主管預算凍結案依海軍司令部第一幕向下行政事務之一般事務費預算凍結50%中案報告案"},{"start":1881.123,"end":1897.37,"text":"決議本案處理完均,同意動之並提報院會二、國防部主管預算凍結案等40案決議以上40案處理完均,均同意動之並提報院會宣讀完畢請問在場的委員對於上次的會議議事錄有無疑落、錯誤或需要更正之處沒有好,議事錄確定那現在介紹在場的委員陳俊宇委員"},{"start":1912.239,"end":1937.851,"text":"沈博洋召委陳永康委員那現在是介紹我們列席的官員我們部長林嘉榮亞東太平洋司司長藍夏禮西亞籍非洲司副司長陳永博歐洲司司長黃金耀"},{"start":1939.724,"end":1956.431,"text":"拉迪美洲及加勒比海斯市長鄭麗晨北美市市長王良義條約法律副市長許博義國際組織市市長孫簡元國際合作及經濟事務市市長連一平國際傳播司副市長蕭美惠"},{"start":1969.164,"end":1987.281,"text":"研究設計會副主任林世新李斌處處長我們陳欣欣秘書處處長陳景林人事處處長呂士儀政府處處長余世明主計處處長林佩華"},{"start":1995.077,"end":2001.96,"text":"資訊及電務處處長林啟文公眾外交協調會副執行長陳怡君非政府組織國際事務會執行長江振偉台灣日本關係協會副秘書長林玉慧台灣美國事務委員會秘書長邱高偉"},{"start":2026.127,"end":2055.103,"text":"外交及国际事务学院副院长陈文颖领事事务局主任秘书苏立威参访法人国际合作发展基金会秘书长黄毓林参访法人台湾民主基金会执行长廖达琪参访法人太平洋经济合作理事会秘书长许俊斌"},{"start":2056.917,"end":2068.96,"text":"行政院主席總署專門委員邱碧珠以上請醫事人員先讀討論事項"},{"start":2070.994,"end":2087.653,"text":"討論事項處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議外交部主管預算凍結案等三案一第五目向下對國際之關懷救助及重建中業務費預算凍結三百萬元案二第一項決議括弧一預算凍結案括弧密三第一項決議括弧二預算凍結案預算凍結案括弧密宣讀完畢"},{"start":2094.312,"end":2101.356,"text":"本日會議處理外交部主管預算解凍案請外交部長林佳榮上台報告主席各位委員各位先進各位女士各位先生大家早"},{"start":2114.142,"end":2139.527,"text":"承蒙大院外交及國防委員會安排本部主管114年度預算凍結項目進行解凍今日列入議程既有討論四項三項本部已分別原題書面報告含送大院在案此部分已納入大院議案關係文書 敬請各位委員參閱鑑於政府資源有限本部"},{"start":2141.627,"end":2165.363,"text":"將秉持尊潔的原則除了在核實編列預算之外也會切實落實執行各項重要的外交事務敬請各位委員一本長期以來對外交工作的關注和支持對本部敘以督促與鼓勵並同意解除上述各項預算凍結案以利本部業務之順利推動謝謝"},{"start":2171.503,"end":2190.488,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員5加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請以10點半提出11點左右處理那現在開始請我們陳俊宜委員上台諮詢"},{"start":2203.203,"end":2205.187,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請林部長部長早"},{"start":2213.202,"end":2239.083,"text":"首先就我們這個國人這個旅外的權益的還有安全的部分我想來跟部長您做一個討論那美國總統川普政府持續以這個打擊猶太主義為由那禁止哈佛大學招收國際生並且對學生的這個簽證進行限制我國目前有50多位學生可能會受到影響"},{"start":2239.904,"end":2264.062,"text":"那就這個目前的情況來看這個國土安全部給哈佛大學的這個30天寬限期即將到結束那除了川普和這個哈佛之間的一個衝突問題以外也包括哥倫比亞大學及部長您的母校耶魯大學等這種長春藤盟校也都被點名了"},{"start":2264.562,"end":2271.28,"text":"那先前國際國務院也曾公布學生簽證這個審查和面試的新措施規則"},{"start":2273.902,"end":2299.08,"text":"部分恐怕會一再的變化那面對諸多不確定的因素讓已經在美國的這個求學的學生或是正在申請當中的相關的實習機會或是申請當中的這些我們簽證的學生都沒辦法安心那我想請教部長就是相關事務是由我們外交部跟教育部一起負責"},{"start":2299.881,"end":2312.636,"text":"那接下來美國對於這個國際學生的政策可能會如何的發展是否能夠主動來提供我們留學生必要的相關協助報告委員在"},{"start":2315.098,"end":2337.056,"text":"第一時間我們就透過跟美國在台協會包括跟鼓勵委員處長來提洽關注我們留學生的權益那也透過美處跟國務院來進行反應那也在委員這個質詢的最近的發展"},{"start":2342.02,"end":2371.076,"text":"AIT已經有復告我們就是近日內因為恢復學生簽證的這個面試的這個受理他的申請那也會盡快提供民眾申請的細節就是這邊我想AIT應該在等在華埔整體的那個Guidelines這個指導的原則 那就會對外來公布"},{"start":2372.489,"end":2397.505,"text":"那這個美方在去年公布的這個報告當中,那台灣已經成為美國第五大的國際生的來源那赴美留學的人數已經成長到兩萬三千人左右所以暫停學生簽證的這種面試問題,對於要前往美國深造的同學來講影響甚大"},{"start":2398.365,"end":2422.493,"text":"我們看到部長剛剛也說對於這個問題已經多次和AIT交涉那除了先前已經預約的這個學生簽證的面試照常進行以外目前還沒有安排面談的這些學生還蠻多的似乎無法再預約面試那即將在九月開學的學生來"},{"start":2424.254,"end":2440.93,"text":"來講對他們是一個非常大的隱憂雖然我們外交部已經持續和美方在協調但是有關簽證及面試的預約相關的政策我們是否有所轉變的契機能否爭取在近期恢復開放預約"},{"start":2442.734,"end":2471.676,"text":"是我們平均一年申請到美國的留學生大概有一萬出頭其實已經前面一半左右已經申請而且排的面試的時間大概都陸續進行中現在是本來暫停的是新申請也是可以受理但是面試的時間他沒有辦法安排不過我們最近得到的就是AIT跟我們的"},{"start":2473.297,"end":2496.13,"text":"回復是很快的時間內就會來恢復有關於學生辦理簽證面試的這個受理至於說細節因為他要上網去公告這個大概目前正在處理中所以暑假期間當然有些暑期班可能會受影響至於說九月開學我想現在時間應該是還相對足夠"},{"start":2498.831,"end":2526.467,"text":"我們先前也有一些例子包括新北市議員 林津潔議員她有反映她的女兒有申請到美國留學的許可目前都順利辦理完 就是說面試但她的同學 林津潔議員告訴我就是她的女兒的同學就遇到了一些困難也沒辦法安排進去不過按照最新我們得到的訊息應該可以在很快的時間安排面試"},{"start":2527.768,"end":2551.563,"text":"就是因為在社群上,社群上也有許多可能是要赴美的這些學生,他在社群上有留言有看到所以我們同理心,假設我們家裡有一個孩子是去申請到好的學校,我們一定是心急如焚所以我在第一時間就跟同仁講,每一個個案我們都要去了解,然後關心跟協助他"},{"start":2552.363,"end":2566.195,"text":"目前大概就是剩下大概一半還沒有安排面試的我想應該很快的時間他們就可以排上時間那就會比較放心好 謝謝部長這部分再請我們同仁也繼續為我們學生爭取權益"},{"start":2568.317,"end":2587.341,"text":"那針對近期以色列和伊朗的一個衝突這個問題區域緊張的情勢已經持續在升高當中並且隨時都有可能會產生相關的變化然後我們也看到我們外館已經幫這個目前滯留在以色列280人中的16位已經"},{"start":2591.722,"end":2612.696,"text":"讓他們辦理搭乘專機專車離境那在伊朗的部分我們有九位可是好像沒有聽到說我們對伊朗的部分有什麼相關的一個策巧或是幫他們轉境的動作這部分我們部長對伊朗的部分因為"},{"start":2614.858,"end":2643.812,"text":"伊朗是有我們駐杜拜的代表處轄管我們本身並沒有在伊朗的代表處不過就是我們在那邊也有包括駐德惠蘭台貿中心那另外我們也跟其他國家的大使館密切聯繫所以您提到的所謂九位目前已經有三位已經離境那是透過陸路那就是往土庫曼或周邊國家那還有六位國人在伊朗"},{"start":2644.252,"end":2671.57,"text":"那我們都有跟他們直接聯繫所以任何的狀況我們都會在第一時間來關心跟協助那目前都是安全的我想請教部長就是針對我們現在在以色列還有伊朗的所有的國人我們是不是都有確實掌握他們目前是否需要協助的這個訊息能夠在第一時間假設他們提出需求我們可以幫他們"},{"start":2672.35,"end":2688.793,"text":"有,因為我們旅外國人動態登錄有一個資料我們現在在住以色列,我們代表處還是辦公的根據以色列政府的安全指引,有一些是居家辦公但是必要的時候還是要到代表處"},{"start":2689.614,"end":2716.051,"text":"不過我們也看到說我們的代表處附近也因為轟炸有造成一些輕微的毀損甚至我們代表的官邸也是在算是他們就是有受損地區那我們都密切的關注因為以色列他是都有很多的這些疏散跟安全的措施我們就按照那個指引來辦理"},{"start":2717.552,"end":2728.782,"text":"那針對以色列的我們的代表處有沒有可能在短期間之內會關閉或是撤離?我們沒有撤管,我們現在還是辦公中,當然現在通訊很發達所以用一個比較彈性的方法來辦公,那也隨著這個"},{"start":2739.631,"end":2761.999,"text":"中東這個衝突情勢的變化我們會做好因應那部長我想請教就是以色列的部分我們目前還是設定在第三級的這個橘色警戒那伊朗已經是紅色警戒那未來這個以色列的部分有沒有可能提高這個警戒的級數我們是這樣我們都按照國際的標準"},{"start":2764.542,"end":2778.28,"text":"其實以色列在北境跟加薩還是維持紅色的景勢那在其他的地方是列為橙色不過就隨著我們的這個目前的這個"},{"start":2780.102,"end":2802.507,"text":"安全的情形在做調整那相關來講跟我們維持一樣警示程度的國家也包括韓國日本法國義大利等那當然有些國家有發布全境紅色就是最高警戒不過在橙色跟紅色之間我們基本上我們的這個規範的內容已經是很接近"},{"start":2803.867,"end":2823.998,"text":"那這部分還是請我們外交部持續關注啦,能夠提供給這個旅外的我們這些國人一個安全的保護以外也可以提供給我們國內民眾要這個赴以色列或是伊朗或是其他中東國家旅遊的時候一個比較新的一個資訊是因為現在的空域"},{"start":2824.958,"end":2841.964,"text":"都已經管制了很多是透過陸路所以我們是不鼓勵大家這個時候到有戰爭這個衝突跟風險高的地方但是已經在那邊的國人因為有各種因素有些人是已經在那邊有"},{"start":2844.125,"end":2873.114,"text":"就結婚,家庭在那裡,有一些是讀書或旅遊或是經商那情形都不太好,我們都是聯繫也尊重但是也都會告訴他們我們政府相關的措施也會提醒他做好這些安全維護的這個工作非必要先暫時不要前往對好,謝謝部長好,謝謝委員謝謝陳俊宜委員的諮詢接下來有王定宜委員上台諮詢"},{"start":2884.175,"end":2908.241,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長好 委員好今天大家都關切中東的局勢那以色列伊朗的戰事升溫我想這個無庸置疑啦川普最新的X Twitter推文上面只有寫兩個字叫做那個投降就是無條件投降 他只寫兩個字所以看起來美國"},{"start":2909.761,"end":2934.998,"text":"我們看他從不管是英國或義大利或其他單位他們的加油機、轟炸機大概都往中東集中所以除了以色列跟伊朗以外大概美國在這件事情上不會置身事外特別牽涉到核子武器這個是大概媒體都有報導的客觀局勢那我現在詢問的是我們外交部第一個我們外交部掌握國際局勢當必要這待會我請教你"},{"start":2935.618,"end":2955.284,"text":"但是國人在外面的安全很重要因為我們旅遊警示是你們在公布的目前伊朗是紅色嘛是是屬於第四級所以第四級是不僅不建議前往在那邊的還請他離開對不對對那我們對伊朗我看伊拉克啦伊朗"},{"start":2956.144,"end":2969.455,"text":"然後這個以色列黎巴嫩這個區域靠近黎巴嫩這個區域我們都列為紅色第四級所以不建議前往還要求他儘速離開那我們在這個區域有沒有撤僑的計畫"},{"start":2971.711,"end":2990.326,"text":"在以色列我們目前都還沒有到撤僑沒有那如果國人要離開外交部住處可以提供協助嗎協助包括好幾波透過我們路路啦交通載具然後離境的時候比如到約旦也有人去接所以你現在講的是已經有執行的"},{"start":2990.626,"end":3019.967,"text":"有三坡 二十位從以色列離開那就有在執行嘛只是說你沒有主動啦現在就是說如果要離開的外交部目前透過陸路到約旦那已經走了三坡 大約二十名是然後需要徹底的人是向我們住處聯繫嗎我們好像有個聯繫的網絡嘛對 我們就是里外國人登錄表那個都是隨時在滾動式修正有沒有在我們掌握的國人以外的人目前在那裡的"},{"start":3022.145,"end":3048.896,"text":"因為他們之間互相也都聯繫跟我們代表處常連都有聯繫因為其實以色列或是加薩爾佐蘭或是這邊的戰事已經一段時間了一段時間了但伊朗這邊情況是比較形態因為人也比較少就九名那目前三名已經離境所以我先跟你確認一下我們現在以色列全境是列為第四級紅色還是有一部分維持在橙色北境跟加薩爾佐蘭是第四級"},{"start":3049.856,"end":3074.106,"text":"但其他的部分就是第三級就靠近黎巴嫩跟靠近加薩這邊列為紅色第四級對其餘的維持在第三級第三級就是避免前往沒有勸離的一個呼籲所以現在如果我是位處在橙色的部分我希望撤離外交部也協助嗎也協助也要協助而且密切聯繫中"},{"start":3075.126,"end":3095.896,"text":"那你現在掌握我們在那邊的目前真的還在那裡的台灣人有多少包含學生啊 經商啊 駕駛的270位所以我這邊 我看到就有的數據是280位因為已經有離境一些那剛剛同仁給我嘛 因為滾動式在修正目前是274位 還在目前274 對那離開有20位嘛 你剛才講20個嘛所以原來應該294在那個地方對啊 就數學嘛"},{"start":3106.002,"end":3118.559,"text":"來274你剛才一開始我問你我們到底有多少台灣人在那裏委員是這樣子因為就像剛剛我們剛剛講的他是滾動式的他在整個滾速學不會變嗎不是 因為有些國人他是自己看到我們外館發布訊息他主動來聯繫的"},{"start":3119.781,"end":3137.054,"text":"沒有 主動聯繫 因為有些是短期上的國人 我們的確可能我現在說 我們外交部要展現的是 我國人在以色列我有掌握住他們 是294位或290位目前是19位 18位或20位 這不能大約啦每一條 每一條台灣人都是珍貴的 所以我的意思說"},{"start":3137.694,"end":3155.749,"text":"每一個每一條生命都是非常寶貴的所以你剛才說有安排20位經過陸路到第三軌就是約旦而且有人接這是很好非常好安全出去了嘛所以那邊有多少人加上現在那裡還有多少人那就equal to那就等於我原來有多少人嘛沒有例外嘛例外就是我不知道的嘛"},{"start":3156.289,"end":3173.145,"text":"沒錯 有些就是主動通報所以人數上會有一些變動的原因在這個地方所以我們現在台灣人 現在是274位現在現存274 是已經離開幾位 20位所以原來大概就是294 如果這樣加的話就294這沒有錯啦那伊朗那一邊呢 在伊朗的台灣人"},{"start":3173.939,"end":3194.196,"text":"伊朗那邊原先我們掌握的是九位那現在有三位是剛剛部長提到他們已經從陸路到土耳其去了那最近呢還會有三位可能會往北邊東北邊往土耳其那他們的離開是我們有提供協助還是我們只是掌握訊息我們現在的話就是我們那個冒險德黑蘭一個辦公室他們有跟他們冒險主任跟他們都有當事人都有訊息"},{"start":3195.457,"end":3221.828,"text":"當時烏克蘭戰爭爆發的時候因為一開始烏克蘭當時也不讓我們有住處在所以是經由茂協一個專員在那地方提供相關的協助聯繫所以現在聽起來就是有三位在伊朗的台籍人士已經走陸路往土耳其方向走你說未來接下來還有三位要離開那我們在那邊提供行政協助的是茂協的駐地人員那我們現在茂協有幾個人在那裡"},{"start":3222.967,"end":3238.173,"text":"茂賢目前有一位主任另外的話是當地僱員那位主任本身有沒有要撤離?他家人有沒有在那?主任他目前在德黑蘭不過他會依據情況會做一些相關的調整那個以色列撒空飄單是要在德黑蘭能趕快離開欸"},{"start":3240.164,"end":3260.719,"text":"我們那位主任安全也很重要甚至於他應該聯繫剩餘的六位應該要往郊區避就是說因為這兩天看起來以色列空軍會先撒單子叫你離開這個區域那接下來真的就是會來炸嘛所以你們現在有沒有辦法跟這一位我們茂協的主任聯繫上"},{"start":3262.27,"end":3277.15,"text":"包委我們每天都有聯繫而且主任他自己對於其實他還沒有離開的一些撤離路線他都已經規劃好了包含可能往北往離海的方向或是往西往拓斜方向現在都規劃好那我們會依據實際的情況來去做任何即時的因應對我是覺得"},{"start":3278.391,"end":3293.819,"text":"他在當地最清楚我們在外面知道國際局勢他在當地知道當地的狀況有時候原來通的路會shut down 就關掉了所以安全第一啦我們的國內人能夠撤離 盡速撤離那這件事看起來我們外交部掌握得還不錯那我覺得要請問的是接下來就是"},{"start":3295.8,"end":3322.461,"text":"這一波當然在經濟上我們就會關心到油價啦黃金啦國際相關的經濟的議題這會影響地緣政治也會影響像美國有一個航母群已經開往那個位置所以它也會連動到印太地區的安全部署也會影響到這個烏克蘭那邊的戰爭像烏克蘭最近沒有拿到防空飛彈因為那些彈就移到了以色列那邊所以這個是其他的邊界影響我現在要提的是"},{"start":3323.422,"end":3350.337,"text":"就從去年發生的哈馬斯屠殺以色列人這個事件開始去年10月那在加薩地道的作戰以及伊朗它的核設施以及用飛彈對以色列發動了幾波的攻擊以及在以色列周邊伊朗的附庸不管是葉門的或者是黎巴嫩的這些相關的攻擊"},{"start":3352.346,"end":3360.724,"text":"據相關資訊顯示以色列人發現這裡面不管是在隧道裡面的武器大概九成以上都來自於中國"},{"start":3363.446,"end":3387.865,"text":"伊朗核設施的能量來自中國上一次一艘來自中國的運輸機停在伊朗快被以色列炸掉那個飛機來自中國昨天三架從中國飛往伊朗的7370就是波音的飛機後來訊號關掉他們也相信這個是去運補伊朗那邊"},{"start":3388.926,"end":3404.474,"text":"所以以色列過去這長期以來是幫助中國武器現代化很重要的國家其實以色列跟中國很好那台灣跟以色列從我們大概第一代雄風飛彈以後直接的接觸就減少了"},{"start":3405.094,"end":3432.015,"text":"我要問的問題是 部長 這個讓你親自回答從去年到現在 我們外交部跟以色列之間我們台語的關係 是不是有因為這些局勢的改變台語關係有升溫 我講的升溫是保護和呈現在交流的頻率交流的品質 交流的層級以及不管在安全議題 軍工業合作議題或者經貿議題上 你的評估怎麼樣"},{"start":3435.767,"end":3458.576,"text":"確實如您講以前以色列跟中國的關係是包括在軍事還有武器上是有密切的關係但是自從這個中東的戰事發生之後我想他們已經很清楚中國在背後支持他們的敵對的治理"},{"start":3460.777,"end":3471.688,"text":"那跟台灣的部分,我想不只是說理念相近,現在地緣政治上也是厲害,關係是很密切所以在交流的程式跟範圍都有所提升"},{"start":3479.881,"end":3507.777,"text":"因為光我們在立法院連續接到的以色列訪問團頻率跟裡面的成員裡面成員擔任過部長級的擔任過摩薩德副手等級的都公開來所以我是覺得這個質跟量也許是一個彼此關係提升的契機那我最後30秒問一個簡單的問題這個因為不完全你們負責哥斯大黎加的情報安全局有派五個情報官來台灣授勧嗎"},{"start":3508.925,"end":3534.157,"text":"有還是沒有因為這不是我們外交部主管業務我就不予回答了不是透過我們海外住處去聯繫安排這個嗎我們對於一些國際交流有一定的都有掌握不過因為涉及到不是我們主管業務這個消息來源是來自於當地的媒體報導那哥斯拉伊加跟我們斷交相當時間了他2007年斷交到現在了"},{"start":3537.719,"end":3554.415,"text":"那哥斯大黎加近來因為資安問題跟中國產生了一些摩擦這是背景那當地媒體報導說有五個他們情報局的人經由第三國來台灣參加情報安全培訓這個是坦白講"},{"start":3556.38,"end":3582.621,"text":"有的是屬於國安事務但是這個是一個朋友之間如果情報人員都去你那邊受訓的話這代表關係的提升所以這也是外交啦你不肯回答我不勉強啦就是說有關這個哥斯大利加情報安全局他們自己報導說有五個官員來台灣這件事情後續會不會引起中國的抗議中國跟哥斯大利加的變化以及台灣跟哥斯大利加的變化"},{"start":3583.502,"end":3601.233,"text":"我是建議外交部其實有一塊是相當於大的一塊其實是台美跟中南美洲的關係,這個要掌握住啦是,所以川普政府更重視西半球,特別是拉美那這個部分當然我們在外交空間上是有增加啦"},{"start":3601.693,"end":3612.963,"text":"那在交流方面,我們不以邦交國為對象,不論情報的交流,各種經貿交流,乃至於有一些政務的交流,都是有在推動當中"},{"start":3617.745,"end":3639.28,"text":"我們當然非邦交國主要理念相近我們現在總和外交其實都是積極在跟他們多接觸好建立彼此互信合作機制這個有很多方面的層次啦那這一題我們會持續追蹤那我們先外交部繼續加油好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝王定宇委員上台的質詢接下來有羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3648.566,"end":3668.782,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長部長好部長好今天我們多位委員駿魚委員也好或是地域委員都在關心在以色列還有伊朗地區我們的國人的安全尤其是在伊朗像之前的話我們所知道的是有"},{"start":3669.162,"end":3690.118,"text":"九位的國人還在伊朗剛剛很欣慰就是說陸陸續續已經有撤出了尤其我看到歐洲各國呢已經開始陸續的撤僑那再來川普也呼籲國人全面撤離這個德黑蘭所以我們也很擔心這九位國人的安全那當然還有三位現在在伊朗我們也希望就是說我們外交部這邊外管這邊全力的來協助讓他們安全的離開這個德黑蘭離開這個伊朗"},{"start":3695.902,"end":3715.035,"text":"那再來還有就是畢竟在以色列還有兩百多位的我國的僑胞在那裡那我們所看到就是說像川普像之前他第一時間的時候他有提到說以色列的這個軍事行動是跟美國沒有關係他並沒有介入可是我發現說這兩天他的這個言論稍微有做了一個轉變他說可能他們還是可能會參戰那如果美國真的參戰的話對整個中東局勢的這個目前的處境會不會會更加有更高的風險可能會更加的嚴峻"},{"start":3726.282,"end":3743.877,"text":"那可能有哪些地方會受到影響那各種的可能的情境我們都有做分析啦跟也做好因應那因為這個美國是不是參戰或者是伊朗的反應這個當然會升高"},{"start":3746.039,"end":3767.955,"text":"從區域的甚至變成全球性的衝突那這個對於不只是地緣政治對於全球的經濟也會有很大的影響所以我們政府包括總統還有行政院長都有召開包括國安高層會議今天行政院會這個卓院長也有所指示就是有關於因應這個戰局變化"},{"start":3770.652,"end":3794.442,"text":"對中東這個的部分其實我們還是會有一些評估跟推斷因為畢竟說我們在中東地區的這個僑胞其實也不少所以對他們的安全我想都是國人最重視的那再來還有一點昨天晚上呢在新聞報導新聞這個播出的時候突然間呢看到一個跑馬燈說這個伊朗可能會讓全世界呢有一個surprise is a surprise是怎麼樣的一個狀況部長"},{"start":3795.903,"end":3817.332,"text":"因為那個短片我有看到 因為涉及到核彈 核武器到底真實的情形如何後續的發展這個因為我想在會不會升高 甚至變成一個核武的戰爭這個確實是全世界都在關注"},{"start":3818.454,"end":3846.436,"text":"我們當然本身在這個地區除了我們我們是沒有正式邦交國家但也有代表處另外我們的能源尤其油氣經過這個中東地區也會影響我們的經濟這個都會連動所以不只是總統召開高層的會議行政院院長也責成各部會做好這個戰爭升高的時候我們的應變計畫"},{"start":3848.303,"end":3863.56,"text":"所以這部分的話我想外交部還是要隨時這個繃緊神經來注意這個整個中東局勢的這個發展那當然伊朗的態度當然是很重要當然美國希望就是說回到這個核談判的這個"},{"start":3867.004,"end":3879.261,"text":"這個重新來做一個談判那我不曉得因為每天的這個街道的這個新聞其實都會讓全球人民成全的這個人民會覺得說非常的這個驚恐因為畢竟這是有關於這個核彈"},{"start":3881.964,"end":3900.079,"text":"這個核戰爭會不會再會不會發生這件事情那尤其伊朗昨天做出了這個聲明甚至是讓大家半夜其實都睡得不是很好甚至有人說他可能半夜起來看看說到底伊朗想要做什麼樣的動作所以變成說外交部隨時都要保持這個警戒那再來還有一點就是也是這個國人跟"},{"start":3902.941,"end":3931.453,"text":"尤其是一些學生跟家長呢非常重視的就是說對於美國這個留學簽證的這個面談那當然剛剛也有委員在關心這一題那我想請教就是說到目前為止我們有多少這個學生呢會因為川普的這個政策呢受到這個很大的影響尤其川普對於這個哈佛大學呢是採取一連串的這個限制的這個措施所以我想了解的就是說針對哈佛大學這個部分呢多少學生會因為川普政策呢受到影響"},{"start":3933.33,"end":3959.425,"text":"哈佛現在我們台灣的留學生有50多位今年申請到的也大概是這個數字我請我們北美司也許進一步提供比較更新的資料因為它當時有一個月的寬限期現在也快到了那有什麼樣的變化因為這事關國人的尤其留學生的權益我請我們北美司長來跟委員再報告詳細一點因為我大概知道的是一個比較整體的情形但是個別的細節"},{"start":3962.612,"end":3988.448,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們目前在哈佛的學生陳如剛剛部長提到的有50多位那至於說今年的新生的話我們的了解是應該是有53位新生那另外也還有就是幾位是研究的人員所以加起來大概是70位上下那現在今天早上接到的資訊就是關於這個簽證的面談受理的部分"},{"start":3989.569,"end":3990.931,"text":"就是AIT這邊應該蠻快的"},{"start":3992.898,"end":4015.913,"text":"就可以針對面談的部分繼續接受這個受理那應該他們會在這一兩天之內就能夠把新的這個process提供出來這是針對簽證受理的部分那至於說哈佛這邊的情況的話我們的駐波士頓辦事處也持續的在跟校方保持聯繫那目前他們稍微卡到的地方是在針對這個學生申請簽證的這一塊"},{"start":4020.055,"end":4034.433,"text":"所謂牽扯到學生簽證這塊可以說清楚一點嗎因為所以很多家長其實是人心惶惶的辦公室也會接到一些詢問所以這個部分的話可以說明得清楚一點嗎針對學生簽證的部分就是"},{"start":4035.434,"end":4047.687,"text":"國務院這邊的措施其實是一個全球性的措施今天早上我們也有看到美國有一些媒體已經報導了就是國務院會再重新的受理簽證面談的申請這個我們也已經跟AIT這邊有稍微詢問過"},{"start":4053.672,"end":4071.137,"text":"他們現在呢就是只要收到新的這個announcement之後他們就會在他們的網站上面做說明所以我們的國人要申請這個去美國的學生簽證的部分應該是在近期之內就可以再恢復申請和受理所以這邊說其實之後"},{"start":4074.578,"end":4092.635,"text":"因為學生還是想說那以後我申請有沒有這個機會會不會被不受理或者是被拒絕所以市長您剛才講的意思就是說其實這個措施這個限制措施到後面其實不會受到影響是不是對於學生的這個申請"},{"start":4095.49,"end":4109.001,"text":"針對這個簽證面談這部分是不會受影響的嗎我們的理解是AIT應該很快就會再再度的恢復接受簽證的申請的受理那他們也會就是在完全恢復這個簽證申請的受理之後"},{"start":4111.323,"end":4125.318,"text":"他們也會加快腳步來處理我們學生的申請那但是具體的細節的話就是還是需要由AIT這邊來做正式的宣布那我們的理解是AIT應該蠻快的在一兩天之內"},{"start":4128.221,"end":4150.188,"text":"就会有具体的新的声明出来所以也就是说学生台湾的孩子放心您就去申请AIT这边会全力的协助我们会这个政策其实会恢复到之前的那个面谈的这个作业会恢复所以这个不用担心是这样子的意思吗简单说我们经常的理解是"},{"start":4151.648,"end":4176.634,"text":"我稍微補充說明就是本來申請已經受理的都在辦理中那只是面試的時間後來就停了那現在連面試的時間原來已經申請已經排的面試時間的也會進行了都有進行完相當多那現在就是申請完之後那以之後要申請的現在還沒有排面試的那一部分這幾天AIT表示他們會"},{"start":4177.934,"end":4191.164,"text":"就是公布如何排面試一旦面試時間定了大家都比較安心因為買機票啦等等那比較受影響是暑期班因為現在六月下旬了嘛所以這個至於說正式的學期啊因為時間還有我想那個衝擊會相對比較小"},{"start":4194.306,"end":4209.239,"text":"所以因為這個時間的關係當然孩子他當然很擔心希望說有一個明確的答案所以我在想說如果說外交部能夠有一個明確的一個回覆的話可以公開的告訴大家是我們是每個人我們都是"},{"start":4209.779,"end":4226.553,"text":"根據他個人 我們也都會去關注他持續申請的狀況也跟AIT 衛星本身跟古力園處長已經不斷地都有在提洽這個請委員方 我們會全力來維護跟爭取國人 尤其是留學生的權益OK 好 以上謝謝好 我們下面請黃仁委員質詢"},{"start":4242.526,"end":4270.081,"text":"有請部長主席委員好部長請教一下部長目前的中東的一個地區的一個戰事那請問一下這個評估中東地區的戰事的狀況我國人擔心的可能被戰事波及那但據知道巴林還正在有我們排球隊在當地的比賽亞洲盃請問部長有什麼樣的掌握狀況"},{"start":4273.324,"end":4277.851,"text":"我們80是有涉處我請我們亞非斯也來說明一下對他們現在聯繫的狀況"},{"start":4280.317,"end":4306.78,"text":"市市報委員目前在波斯灣地區這幾個海灣國家巴林它目前並沒有相關的一些安全上的問題那我們在這一次的這個以色列跟伊朗衝突這個部分我們在這幾個國家包含巴林我們做了這個旅遊警示的一些相關的文字的更新那目前來講的話那邊的一些相關活動都還持續那住宿也都有掌握對我們我國的排球隊也都還在那個地方隨時掌握好不好是那"},{"start":4307.981,"end":4330.531,"text":"另外就是請教一下部長這一次的出訪關島我等帶隊到這個關島來做一個採訪這個訪問那本期六月初在出訪關島的時候那謝謝我們外交部的細心的安排的跟協助也恭喜文這次出訪非常的成功引起很大的分享"},{"start":4332.132,"end":4344.802,"text":"這個總和外交跟原民外交是非常重要的在這一次出訪就是擴展了我們原民外交的成效但行程中的收穫已經遠遠超過了原民外交的範疇"},{"start":4346.604,"end":4362.445,"text":"特别是在台美印太安全合作台湾在第一岛链战略枢纽的能见度与外交的空间南太平洋的布局以反制中共大陆在南太扩展的背景下"},{"start":4363.065,"end":4376.99,"text":"那讓本席堅信我國應該更有明確的戰略定位及後續的一個行動那本席在這一次最重要的任務就是推動南島共同體以原民外交"},{"start":4378.59,"end":4391.961,"text":"文化的外交這一次雖然只到到了關島但是在本席可以作為推動到南島語系的範例包含如何以語言文化為紐帶"},{"start":4394.022,"end":4408.816,"text":"推動南島語族多層面的交流所以因此本市在關島這個跟總督會面的時候也提出了成立南島文化語言永續的合作平台的想法那請問一下部長對於"},{"start":4410.137,"end":4433.043,"text":"建立原民外交交流及浮生的文化合作協議例如關導薩摩羅族以可以台灣原民團體簽署的一個相關的MOU合作的一個備忘錄那外交部有什麼樣的想法要如何促成如何推展南歐以西的一個國家"},{"start":4433.783,"end":4449.536,"text":"是 先恭喜委員也感謝為我們外交透過國會外交去拓展我們的總和外交特別是援助於外交方面我們跟關島自從去年總統過境關島總督古雷諾總督也來台灣訪問在近期內已經訪問完了"},{"start":4460.605,"end":4480.415,"text":"因此這個包括原住民外交這個差不多族跟我們原住民族是有這個遠親的關係所以在原住民文化的合作上包括一些研究包括未來怎麼樣去促進更多的交流將會是一個重點"},{"start":4481.195,"end":4484.119,"text":"那因為它是第二島鏈是非常重要的樞紐位置隨著印太的這個地區大家越來越重視那應該是台灣跟關島包括"},{"start":4495.1,"end":4518.931,"text":"文化、經貿還有各方面的交流應該可以預期是會更為蓬勃發展我想總統都已經有表達關島跟我們這邊都是一家親而且語言上的一個語文的交流就非常的一個緊密所以這一次這個和關島總督與還有議長的一個交流的時候"},{"start":4520.192,"end":4538.767,"text":"他們特別的關心農業、觀光跟醫療的互動那尤其是總督提到台灣是關島最重要的醫療的轉介夥伴那但目前直航班機非常有限關島居民對於台灣的醫療品質非常的信賴"},{"start":4539.568,"end":4548.552,"text":"那希望雙方能夠有更頻繁更常態化的直飛的航班那請問部長在有什麼樣的能夠在這個比較積極的一個作為"},{"start":4553.482,"end":4568.672,"text":"是跟委員報告其實我們在今年的就是過年這個春節的前後我們也有華航的包機那後來現在當然是聯合航空現在在就是飛這條航線那國內的航空公司我們也在協調希望能夠有定期的航班飛關島跟台灣因為這裡面除了觀光旅遊以外包括剛剛講的醫療的轉診"},{"start":4582.521,"end":4601.447,"text":"其實台灣對他們來講醫療是價格更便宜但是水準很高他們很期待很期待而且希望能夠就是說也能夠在農業上跟水產業上這一次古雷諾總督來台灣特別去考察了包括一些垂直的農場還有養殖業還有這些那對他們來講他們這些很多都是進口"},{"start":4608.21,"end":4635.279,"text":"這個糧食如果透過台灣去投資也可以出口那要到美國算是免稅所以這個確實是有商機所以因為直航所以現在國內的這些企業也有一個想法希望能夠在那個地方不管是醫療科技而且甚至未來是不是也要提出請我們關島能夠釋出一塊土地作為"},{"start":4636.179,"end":4652.152,"text":"科具延期的一個地方來提供給我們國人能夠有這個投資的一個空間在那個地方好不好我們有進行 請台灣世西進行了一個規劃那現在的在港口附近的那個工業區設施比較完整另外就在機場旁邊還有一塊可以新開發那我們現在也在就是針對各個產業適合去投資美國的其實關島是離台灣最近的美國"},{"start":4663.261,"end":4680.602,"text":"的這個領土所以確實是關島跟我們可以除了互設代表處我們可以有更多的這個未來可以交流合作的項目我想這個是總統也很重視那我想說再一次的可能我會再出訪"},{"start":4682.063,"end":4705.573,"text":"到關島還有一些企業可能隨同去了解一下關島的一個投資地點是不是適宜那另外就是再次強調我國的外交必須要有新的思維尤其是中共不斷的壓縮我們這個壓縮國的外交空間美中博弈局局勢又顯得詭異複雜"},{"start":4707.074,"end":4729.206,"text":"所以以原民外交低調突圍絕對是未來我國外交的重點低調突圍就是我們現在原民外交最重要的一環那另外就是我們針對烏克蘭的原住烏克蘭的預算那今天關於我國原住烏克蘭的重建"},{"start":4732.087,"end":4756.072,"text":"經過外交部說明應該已經取得了提案委員的理解待會應該可以解凍但如果外交來持續編列援助烏克蘭的一個計畫還有預算本席提醒外交部這一次的預算解凍的其中一個主要的原因是因為存在在以下的一個明顯的一個缺失的爭議第一"},{"start":4757.853,"end":4772.015,"text":"資金用途不夠透明缺乏明確專案的明細第二部分款項轉交國際組織執行成效無法追蹤第三位於烏克蘭官方或當地華僑"},{"start":4773.116,"end":4795.038,"text":"社群建立固定的协调机制第四原预算编列过于笼统所以缺少专案的分裂第五预算执行进度与成效报告不符实所以陆外交部乃要持续援助乌克兰本市建议针对以上缺失必须要有所改进好不好部长"},{"start":4795.458,"end":4816.447,"text":"好 我跟委員也說明一下我們從人道援助到協助重建那當然因為我們跟烏克蘭沒有設代表處嘛那我們就透過這理念相近周邊的中東歐國家那確實在幾個項目成效很好除了教育然後醫療現在到包括能源那這些當然有一些項目因為涉及到我們"},{"start":4817.888,"end":4842.487,"text":"在當地特殊的採購我們是會用比較屬於權宜的方法但是一定是要遵守立法院的決議來辦理所以這次的解凍案也感謝委員有關於在執行上面怎麼樣能夠有更透明然後更詳細的報告包括成果的評估好 謝謝謝謝黃委員"},{"start":4848.169,"end":4850.23,"text":"接下來由我們陳永康委員上台質詢部長您好剛才各個委員先進前面大家都關切我們在這個"},{"start":4874.642,"end":4900.696,"text":"整個以牙中間所以我是最外面的專家我正想聆聽大家都關切所以我們就不再focus在所謂僑生我們的同胞在那邊旅遊這個我知道外交部就做了很多精神花這個功夫那我下面也要希望提幾個問題就是因為川普總統上來以後現在我們要關切的就是川普2.0那他的國家安全戰略"},{"start":4901.776,"end":4918.514,"text":"在他的任内要向国会提出来那这个里面包括他的国防战略军事战略印太战略那上一次在月前古里安处长曾经回答媒体说有关川普总统的印太战略可以先参考第一任的2019的"},{"start":4919.835,"end":4940.844,"text":"那這個2019的那個解密的文件呢就在下面那句話那這個就提供參考了實際上啊我們就發現現在國際情勢的變化他不只是軍事實力被變外交立場的預防南海經濟的追求另外他要強調很多的法規專利的保護那這個是一個整合性的一個外交"},{"start":4942.397,"end":4954.847,"text":"事實上前陣子我們部內也安排過美國國會特別針對中共的研究委員會也來訪問我們也做過意念交流那就發現了我們需要把外交"},{"start":4957.64,"end":4970.128,"text":"經濟當然關稅問題了還有這個能源醫療體系還有國防啊我們希望做一個一個整合的概念那這個東西呢我們政府當然現在努力朝這個方向做但是將來啊他不能夠切開單獨做報告那這張圖啊"},{"start":4974.921,"end":4994.201,"text":"是从川普第45任拜登46任到他现在47任美国对国际所有他的不管是对手合作的对象当他要实施一些重点要求的时候他就在这个中间虚线里面的这20项主要的项目前后调整"},{"start":4995.743,"end":5012.91,"text":"从后面拉到前面加码那前面的放松就往后移其实它是一个完整的战略的一个scope那我们希望未来在这个领域里面透过跨部会的协商不管执政在野我们在共同努力能够预应掌握这个情势"},{"start":5013.82,"end":5034.166,"text":"那這樣子的話就不是說針對每一個單項的狀況去做問如何反應這點要大家共同努力那事實上這個美方的要求各位看出來了不只是關稅的問題也要取消障礙開放市場增加投資包括你的high tech過去"},{"start":5035.006,"end":5053.06,"text":"那么最后面这张我很快就跳过去就不提了那这是因为我们从这个民间的各种不同的资讯从美国内部资讯对这个川普总统对他的这个国际的招式做了一个分析但我就不提了那现在最主要就是"},{"start":5053.72,"end":5083.1,"text":"在这个国际情势变化万千我们外交部当然刚才都提了我希望我们的资讯处将来能够导入一些AI的技术掌握我们全球有邦交的国家有代表处的国家结合那个及时的GIS的情报就可以标注出来除了这个文字叙述以外可以显示出来那么利用这个AI的资料库我想我们在外讲所这边可以办研讨会我们都很愿意大家把一些经验做分享"},{"start":5084.061,"end":5098.72,"text":"现在比较严肃的问题啊就是以色列在这个6月13号啊凌晨3点啊打了两个伊朗的核设施那么伊朗的领袖啊就要谈啊要不要做报复那现在这个大家都是看媒体啊"},{"start":5099.301,"end":5125.076,"text":"很關心這種衝突會不會變成真正的所謂宣戰的戰爭目前是軍事衝突我們還沒有聽到聯合國的安理會對這兩個議題不管是中美英法書常任理事國提出這個問題的重要性現在大家都在關注所以就產生很多的不同的方向的論述包括昨天晚上的媒體甚至講了"},{"start":5128.495,"end":5150.834,"text":"巴基斯坦說如果以色列要用核武打那巴基斯坦就要挺伊朗這個就很衝突了伊朗會不會報復以色列的核設施這些圖上因為現在的工情跟衛照太容易做校正就找出來了我們當然希望看到還是用和平解決"},{"start":5153.393,"end":5179.745,"text":"川普總統是說要伊朗無條件surrender但是因為他不是戰爭行為如果不進行談判的話目前還保他一命還不要動手可是在伊朗內部的緊張會反映到他在其他情勢這個是昨天晚上剛才說有三架飛機進到伊朗其實是伊朗三架飛機往外走"},{"start":5180.592,"end":5203.325,"text":"那是昨天晚上的那透过专业的分析啊伊朗领导人的专机再加上两架空吧从昨天晚上就出来了那起飞以后啊中间他的这个所谓的cosign的他的接接252627三个cosign的号码消失中间有一架飞机啊完全失踪了"},{"start":5204.141,"end":5232.944,"text":"那昨天晚上的兩三腰拐11點17分他降落到阿曼馬斯卡特機場伊朗的好朋友是卡達因為他們在鴻海原油開發可是卡達有中央指揮部他不敢去巴林有第五艦隊結果他飛到阿曼去了"},{"start":5233.991,"end":5239.971,"text":"两种假设一种是领导人就脱逃了第二种假设是不是在"},{"start":5241.104,"end":5267.796,"text":"阿曼设一个会议的第三地那么由双方来探讨我是建议这几个问题请外交部持续关注这个昨天晚上落地这已经公布这个是Flightradar24的情报已经降落了就三架飞机包括领导人的专机再加两架Airbus已经降落了所以并不是中共的飞机进去而是三架飞机没有显示它的cos已经出来了"},{"start":5268.456,"end":5292.876,"text":"那麼大家都希望這個中正狀況能夠和平落幕那麼也希望我們駐外的同仁能夠在這個承受這麼大的壓力之下持續啊協助我們的學生協助我們的這個在外的僑胞或者是經商同仁能夠確保他們安全這點我們肯定外交部同仁以及在外面的合作這個"},{"start":5295.297,"end":5314.057,"text":"這個是承受一個壓力那真正的關切我們還是記住長遠的國際情勢安理會對這件事件有沒有提出會議那另外就是公情跟可以用的一般的資訊做交叉比對我們把這個及時資料大家分享也肯定大家努力謝謝部長您的指導"},{"start":5315.058,"end":5335.407,"text":"不敢當,確實我想怎麼藉助這種可視化的方式去呈現這些資訊另外一個就是我們跟友邦都有在做情報交換另外這個大使館之間也橫向的聯繫所以我們怎麼樣去掌握正確的資訊跟它可能的動態的發展的趨勢"},{"start":5339.109,"end":5354.373,"text":"有多一點時間來做好應變的準備所以剛剛委員提到的這些資訊都非常的寶貴那特別有一些是方法論這對我們外交部我想我們外交學院未來的這個在課程師資的設計跟怎麼樣導入包括AI來協助我們做決策的一個判斷那這是我們會來積極的來辦理謝謝委員謝謝部長"},{"start":5368.005,"end":5371.916,"text":"謝謝陳友康委員的私訊接下來有林柱英委員上來質詢"},{"start":5384.742,"end":5396.886,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長好 委員早部長早我想今天大家都蠻關注就是伊朗跟以色列的狀況那麼前面很多委員問過的部分我就不再重新提起我比較關注的就是事實上在"},{"start":5401.209,"end":5424.776,"text":"以色列跟伊朗衝突升級之前在網路上許多的年輕朋友關心的是有關於度假打工這個議題因為這個時間點上面真的是有點巧合啦就是我們在2023年的5月3號其實就台灣跟以色列就簽署了台乙的度假打工那麼其實我知道很多年輕朋友對於度假打工是非常希望前往的"},{"start":5425.236,"end":5433.525,"text":"比如說像在我的辦公室裡面就有好幾位我的同仁過去曾經到澳洲度假打工這些經驗對他們來講都非常的重要那麼但是我們是到2025年的6月1號就是這個月我們才開始外交部開始受理可是當時我們在以色列這邊我們已經是黃色的燈號了"},{"start":5447.139,"end":5464.325,"text":"那麼當然我們知道6月13號以色列攻擊伊朗之後整個外交部就把這個旅遊警戒變成橙燈跟紅燈那也暫停了度假打工就是台語的這個所謂的計劃那麼以目前為止因為時間上非常的短所以目前有人申請嗎"},{"start":5466.93,"end":5492.481,"text":"應該還沒有 因為我們只是公佈之後再就是可以來登記嘛因為我們並沒有審查也沒有在執行了那我跟委員提一下為什麼外交是很很微妙因為我們都知道現在因為以色列認為伊朗背後有中國的支持所以我們跟以色列關係是有很大的空間所以怎麼樣在國際的這個"},{"start":5497.225,"end":5522.896,"text":"規範或者是一些之下我們能夠跟以色列加強關係我們當然會因著情勢做調整不會說讓我們的國人去置於險境可是這代表一個我們對於以色列其實就是說其實他們還是有分區啦比如說在北境或者是在加薩那附近當然是市級的警戒紅色可是其他的地方"},{"start":5523.516,"end":5538.171,"text":"其實他們常年處於這種可能的威脅之下他們也是在過正常生活所以我們怎麼樣不會過度反應但是也能夠隨著情勢去做調整就像很多人會覺得從國外的媒體報導以為台灣很危險"},{"start":5542.395,"end":5553.498,"text":"那我們也希望大家來台灣之後會發現沒有那麼危險那這個判斷是什麼必須要有事實的依據所以我想說這個外交我們跟以色列透過這樣一個度假打工讓很多國家當然包括澳洲紐西蘭韓國等等也都是如此的時候我們怎麼樣跟國際同步"},{"start":5561.12,"end":5563.861,"text":"目前我們知道我們簽了18個國家啦那麼因為這個題目為什麼本席會特別希望在質詢台上講也是因為我覺得就是讓部長跟外交部有一個好好來說明的機會就像您剛剛說的這個外交或者是國跟國之間的狀況瞬息萬變但是目前因為我們已經停止受理了之後"},{"start":5583.806,"end":5589.431,"text":"那麼接下來外交部怎麼樣來規劃因為畢竟約簽了我們也不可能片面的就終止因為這個包括其實是兩個國家之間彼此之間在外交上面的協定那麼以目前的狀況停止了之後那麼外交部有沒有針對這個部分做研究跟了解那麼接下來當面對類似的狀況的時候又會大概如何來處理 部長"},{"start":5607.911,"end":5617.445,"text":"這個都有標準作業程序啦我們簽了這個但是當然會依照這個情字來做判斷那所以是受理"},{"start":5618.164,"end":5637.207,"text":"到他去辦理真正的度假打工這還是兩個階段是可是我們不能講說因為這個危機那我們就對外交有時候反而是一個契機啦就是雙邊關係的提升可是我們一定把安全置於最重要的一個基礎"},{"start":5637.908,"end":5661.862,"text":"因為畢竟部長也知道當這樣的訊息之前6月1號在網路上曝光之後我相信外交部也收到包括臉書或者是社群媒體上也收到許多的反饋是說怎麼把我們的青年直接就送上了危險的第一線所以在這個評估跟說明的部分外交部也必須要再更有"},{"start":5663.943,"end":5670.188,"text":"激敏 敏感度一點 對因為這個部分確實在時間點上面會讓外界覺得說非常的敏感那至於說什麼時候會再繼續重啟我想這個也要看兩個地區之間的戰況或者是彼此的最新的訊息那所以說現在目前為止來講因為它當時是個黃色燈號那我知道我們其實在外交上面有灰色 黃色 橙色跟紅色嘛灰色是提醒那麼黃色是注意"},{"start":5692.526,"end":5702.274,"text":"那麼有沒有可能未來在這個部分提升到說如果一旦是有黃色燈號的時候至少我們就不需要先公告還是說因為當時已經跟以色列有說明了就是要在2025年的6月1號要開始實施我們還是要依照國際規範來辦理而且要跟國際同步避免過猶不及啦"},{"start":5714.884,"end":5736.919,"text":"那因為我們旅遊的景色很多國家的情況不斷的在變化我們都會做滾動式的調整那從外交看來講啦因為其實以色列更能夠感受到跟台灣真的是我們都面對強敵的威脅那我們也在過正常的生活那這個地方通案性的去通過了度假打工"},{"start":5738.5,"end":5761.051,"text":"跟我們個案什麼時候要去實施這個我們都會應照情勢來做一些評估跟判斷那所以有一些說什麼偷偷拿下來或者是說為什麼這個時候去公佈不公佈才奇怪公佈但是是隨著情勢去調整那這個都有依據比如說那些旅遊的警示就是很好的依據而且我剛剛講跟國際同步"},{"start":5763.223,"end":5767.745,"text":"這才不會讓人家覺得我們有時候沒有反應也不好啦 反應過度所以您部長的意思就是其實在有關於這個度假打工公佈的同時其實在國際上也是認為此刻這樣子比如說讓留學生又或者是這些實習生到以色列區其實是安全的所以我們也沒有做的特別的超過但我們也沒有特別的不敏感"},{"start":5788.573,"end":5791.814,"text":"其實都是跟國際同步的狀況韓國跟澳洲紐西蘭都持續辦理中但是最近的情況也都在調整中好 了解那麼另外一個當然就是我們今天會解凍一個300萬的台灣對國際關懷救助及重建的業務費那因為我們知道其實台灣現在面對就是我們的宣傳費在外交部這個外交單位的部分是完全都"},{"start":5815.121,"end":5831.646,"text":"被刪除了所以本席其實當然也要特別肯定部長啦現在是用一種文化外交或總和外交的方式讓台灣走出去尤其是本席過去一直非常關注台灣的藝文展演可不可以在國際上發光那麼這一次部長到休斯頓去推動這個台灣Tower就加深台美的文化關係然後包括我們台灣的藝術家Aka Chen特別到這個美國美東美西都去做了展覽"},{"start":5843.089,"end":5854.535,"text":"那麼四月份捷克也跟我們簽了國家文物的保護法所以我們故宮要到捷克去做展覽其實我覺得這個部分都是非常好的那我不知道部長知不知道接下來包括像這個台北的故宮現在呢跟這個美國大都會的展覽現在也開始了那麼還有就是連續"},{"start":5866.141,"end":5888.674,"text":"三年這個環法自行車也會在我們的南投舉行我自己都認為這個是一個非常好的文化外交或符合你的總和外交在我們的這個所謂外交部的國際宣傳費用被砍到零甚至於負的狀況底下本席是要特別提出來質詢但是也肯定部長和外交部的同仁透過文化跟其他的部會的結合可以讓台灣持續被看見"},{"start":5892.156,"end":5901.83,"text":"是 我跟委員也依照這個機會報告當然預算 台灣現在外交部的預算我站我們中央政府總預算已經不到1%"},{"start":5903.697,"end":5926.619,"text":"那逐年地檢從1.79%在這個2008年那個時候所以我們要現在全世界想跟台灣來往的越來越多所以我剛剛講比如科技外交我們的半導體AI這些是在像美國、日本、歐洲另外文化外交的軟實力像故宮在捷克"},{"start":5927.599,"end":5950.966,"text":"還有這個法國的一個展出 9月跟11月陸續這個百件文物那我們就把它發展成歐洲台灣文化年那把這個品牌打出去就是這個是我們當然沒錢也有沒錢的做法就多辦活動啦那當然其實宣傳效果透過活動當然是一個但是如果能夠讓我們有宣傳的費用我想可以達到更多的人歐洲我們有26個館處都動起來"},{"start":5953.087,"end":5964.772,"text":"都把他們年度要辦的活動整合成一個歐洲台灣文化年很精彩的包括這一次去教廷的台灣原民原聲合唱團那真的是驚動了整個歐洲嘆為可以說是天籟之聲我們比如說駐維也納劉璇勇大使他不只在維也納街頭被邀請指揮樂團他最近俠館的克羅埃西亞還有另外一個"},{"start":5983.53,"end":6007.611,"text":"那個國家斯洛維尼亞其實我們的演出還有很多的活動我意思是說台灣現在不只是所謂價值外交是加值外交就跟台灣來往我們怎麼跟他對應之後會增加附加價值那對他那個國家來講我想他們會感受到台灣的就是說"},{"start":6009.352,"end":6025.1,"text":"我們講說良善的力量啦可以促進彼此的成長跟提升所以台灣真的是很豐富但是巧夫也是難為無名之催所以還是要有一點預算那我們是期待能夠恢復"},{"start":6026.181,"end":6053.781,"text":"到將近20年前的那個數字因為我們的GDP還有我們的中央總預算成長這麼多可是我們外交部的預算都都在300億而已這一點在我會一個一個去拜訪我們外交國防委員會我們的委員跟大家詳細說而且大家委員想推動的國會外交也是總和外交一部分像剛剛黃仁委員他去做原住民外交的時候那個簡直是我們自己外交部就"},{"start":6054.682,"end":6064.053,"text":"我們就省掉這條預算,那當然整合大家的力量,步步都是外交部嘛,人人都是外交部部長講得很心酸啦,但本席為什麼會特別提出來是因為像這種別人走進來台灣,或是台灣的藝術家,或者是文化走出去其實這個宣傳跟行銷也都是展現台灣,而且讓台灣的職人可以被世界看到"},{"start":6074.986,"end":6088.531,"text":"那像這樣的預算絕對不是用在部長您身上或者是我們其實在場的這些外交部的同仁身上其實更多的是用在我們的國人身上我也覺得這個部分其實是應該要透過我們的質詢讓全國民眾看到好 謝謝"},{"start":6091.921,"end":6112.664,"text":"誠摯邀請委員們能夠去出席在布拉格跟巴黎的故宮百見文物展我覺得國會如果在黃仁委員或是趙薇帶領之下能夠一起到全境歐洲台灣文化年 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林淳英的質詢 接下來由沈伯陽、趙薇上台質詢"},{"start":6125.679,"end":6148.542,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 有請這個部長 謝謝好 委員謝謝這個 在一開始就是說這一個除了預算解凍以外因為幾個跟預算有關的事項因為現在還有一項還沒有排啦那這個我想先問就是說因為在這個六月的時候民主基金會有去這一個這個日本嘛跟一橋大學有一個這個東海民主論壇"},{"start":6149.262,"end":6173.829,"text":"那因為這個院會進行,我們這邊也蠻多不能過去的那是不是可以請部長或者說請民主基金會跟大家順便跟國人報告一下他最主要的一個目的還有他的一個結果來,請主席,委員您好,部長您好是,我們是其實六月十一號、十二號才過去那我們這一次是我們的台灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做"},{"start":6175.329,"end":6203.45,"text":"ADF is the Asia Democracy Forum我們已經舉辦第十一屆了那這個最主要是在東亞地區那包括日本、韓國包括菲律賓包括新加坡還有包括印度尼西亞這幾個國家是我們的steering committee我們聚會最主要目的這次是討論我們怎麼樣重新適應調整民主的步伐增強我們的韌性那這些連結都是各地重要的NGO那所以這是我們基本上就是穩固"},{"start":6204.13,"end":6229.162,"text":"台灣在東亞地區既有的某種NGO的領導地位對 因為我今天偶爾有看到這一個相關的報導看起來就是有一些專家然後看起來不少的NGO啦那這個跟部長常提到的總和外交應該是非常的合致那因為我現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要我們在外交上面當然在日本上外交有一定的拓展但是因為日本的NGO有一些它也有一些官方的背景"},{"start":6229.662,"end":6255.837,"text":"然後有一些NGO也比較低調但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們當然也是表現了很好的國會的支持如果能夠足以增加"},{"start":6256.897,"end":6274.594,"text":"因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣因為現在香港大家都知道這個中共的這個控制那其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或是分部的是台灣尤其是川普因為他對USAID"},{"start":6278.257,"end":6298.896,"text":"把他改組之後所以我們這個過渡期間今年其實跟很多NGO反而有更大的合作的空間所以這一點委員本身都有在推動我是覺得在預算上面如果大家肯定民主基金會我們在明年編列預算的時候我們來佐與增加"},{"start":6302.339,"end":6323.965,"text":"希望可以,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事就是說在國際情勢的這個變化當中尤其是不管是USAID還有像NEDNED我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算但是也沒有到百分之百,搞不好百分之五十、六十之類的這其實都應該是台灣能夠站出來的時候但它偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話我們也站不出來"},{"start":6325.485,"end":6349.515,"text":"這個部分就反請部長到時候再做更好的一些規劃可以因應這不是只有中國威脅而已還包含這個美國內部政治的改變那這個其實我們在民主機器會的因應我認為特別重要好 謝謝文哲哲那接下來我問一個小問題這個就是說最近我們這個外交部的小編在這個外交部的這個粉專上面在回應的時候呢回應得比較嗆辣一點"},{"start":6350.996,"end":6369.687,"text":"那我先講我沒有說什麼要回去什麼要什麼小編要懲戒啦或者要調查我不是這個意思我在想的一件事情就是說其實小編的回覆的有一些是有創意的但是問題是創意要用在哪一個部分我覺得這可以再思量因為我覺得以外交部的立場"},{"start":6370.487,"end":6392.72,"text":"就是說小編是近期尤其是這個網路世代所生的一個產物那它本身在過往假設我們還沒有這個小編的時代它在很多網站它其實是類似有點像總編的一個地位但我們現在小編有時候就是因為小編某種程度它代表一個人格化的政府所以它會在上面做發言所以它某種程度還是會代表外交部"},{"start":6394.221,"end":6412.956,"text":"因為這個其實它是在針對跟中國有關的議題尤其是那時候跟六四有關這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方我們雖然把很多的業務是切給陸委會但其實對於中國的打壓在外面應對的是外交部所以在這個程度上面對方他去用什麼樣的話語我們要怎麼應對他還是有一種"},{"start":6413.596,"end":6441.298,"text":"外交辭令因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求小編當然是比較生活化然後讓人民覺得比較貼近就是說我這邊寫的他是一個比較親切的一個公僕的角色啦我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯但我想知道的是因為其實小編的地位我認為應該要提升那在小編地位提升的時候呢表示他在比如說他要去回覆他要去發文他一定會有一定程度的審核SOP因為他要跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接嘛"},{"start":6442.058,"end":6466.852,"text":"那所以在這個方面現在我們這個對於小編譬如說他發文的SOP或者回文的SOP還有到底是誰在審核這個機制現在有沒有慢慢建立起來好 我們國傳司當然有一些機制我大概提他說不過我覺得對委員提這個問題非常好因為現在在社群媒體的時代你怎麼樣很及時的互動那當然要正確另外至於說有一定的"},{"start":6468.462,"end":6494.453,"text":"就是說活潑性這個空間啊所以我並沒有去責怪任何的人但是用的語言因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊那小編也是人啦他有用某種方式去回應我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度但是因為是外交部啊我們有一些語詞在用的時候我們稍微要有一個"},{"start":6496.334,"end":6522.334,"text":"理解就是這個畢竟是你一個用人物的方式來呈現外交部所以這個我都沒有去責備我們的小人我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛我們外交部或國家面對到那些網軍其實很多甚至AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候但是我就覺得大家也不用應該講說不用"},{"start":6525.711,"end":6539.938,"text":"跟對方一般見識啦我覺得用一些更有時候更更有智慧的方式或更比較就是不是去嗆"},{"start":6541.618,"end":6561.436,"text":"跟對方一樣的方式陷入對方的邏輯因為這個其實說真的當時有成為新聞的報導但某種程度又呈現了一次就是說中國對我們的打壓所以當然在呈現的目的上面我們其實可以讓別人知道說這個事情的嚴重性因為其實現在尤其是外交部或者說我們總統的臉書這個是外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版所以那個感受當然也不是很好"},{"start":6565.88,"end":6589.296,"text":"所以我可以理解他當時的這個心境,然後以及回文,其實某種程度都凸顯了這個問題那我覺得,所以我不會說這個是一個對錯的問題,但是就是我們以後,因為小編的責任會越來越重大,在現今的這個社會所以他的那個審核的機制啦,SOP啦等等之類的,然後每一次如果出現了什麼事情,誰要來說明什麼等等之類的這個機制如果建立好,我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要啦"},{"start":6591.097,"end":6618.229,"text":"還會檢視一下這個機制對希望能夠趕快建立好 趕快建立那接下來就是這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過但是我覺得也有必要在這個時間點我覺得我也可以再問一次就是說因為經濟學人這個他有統計說這個全球有這一個70個國家去認同這個認同其實不是說單純一個中國的問題而是就是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成"},{"start":6619.469,"end":6644.496,"text":"統一 統一這個錯誤的字眼啦 其實就是侵略啦就是用任何的手段去達成侵略這一件事情中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家那我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易啦那中國要去說服別的國家這我們很難去達成但是我們總是要有一些反制的方案這是第一個第二個就是這一件事情因為外媒報導但其實台灣內部對這一個的報導其實是比較少的但我總覺得這其實應該要讓國人知道"},{"start":6646.957,"end":6665.988,"text":"因為陸委會有時候做很多比如說就是風險的控管啊什麼等等之類的我覺得陸委會在這一邊的能量不一定有辦法還要再關注這一事情但因為這個事情涉及是中國跟別的國家的外交事務我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚的讓國人知道應該會是一件重要的事"},{"start":6666.482,"end":6694.218,"text":"我想這就好好跟委員說這個事情非常重要因為中共在造成新常態它跟很多國家的共同聲明它就是最近有兩個現象一個就是把聯合國所謂27582決議要放進去變成所謂一中原則的依據另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來所謂統一台灣"},{"start":6695.279,"end":6712.369,"text":"或是說推動國家的統一這個是在對武力犯台建立它在法理上的基礎所以我們當跟很多國家講他才意識到所以我們也曾經阻止了最近這半年來中國企圖壓迫一些國家"},{"start":6713.906,"end":6734.377,"text":"就是寫上了這幾句話就是說認同中國可以採用一切手段統一台灣他們才意識到因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺那我們也透過這個東西去操作比如說像今年的應該說G7在日本的某種程度就是提醒因為以前都會講一個中國的政策"},{"start":6737.932,"end":6749.629,"text":"可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別那老共就是不斷地用這個方法去扭曲所以當這個時候其實G7已經我們看到就沒有再去提所謂的一中政策"},{"start":6750.706,"end":6774.307,"text":"我們也是用這個跟很多國家的他們會覺得有道理因為一中政策會被一中原則給去把它扭曲因為其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣所以這個也是另外一個我們的反制那也有成功的例子那至於說70幾個認同它這個樣子其實還有100多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通避免再有更多重複這樣的一個情形"},{"start":6774.867,"end":6803.681,"text":"那就像說法律戰在為他的軍事犯台建立所謂的這個不管是法理基礎或是未來這個混合戰的操作所以這一點確實委員有提出來這是我們現在在外交領域上可以說每天都在面對的一個新常態那我們也有所因應感謝部長 不好意思超過一點時間謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝沈委員 照顧委員的資訊接下來有徐曉新委員上來質詢"},{"start":6805.367,"end":6806.868,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長好 委員好部長好我想要請教一個問題就是我們台灣跟巴拉圭是不是先前有一些經貿相關的協議它的背景是如何的可以幫我們稍微陳述一下嗎"},{"start":6835.239,"end":6844.012,"text":"經貿的協議我們跟巴拉圭對就是呢台巴經濟合作協定在106年7月12號簽署107年2月28號生效實施那它是為了擴大台巴經濟合作協定的效益"},{"start":6850.641,"end":6870.931,"text":"那先前呢其實我看到新聞這個部長您也有對於台巴之間的這個因為簽署相關的協議之後的產生的兩國之間的這個正向幫助有過一些談話所以我想要問一下當初在簽訂相關的這個協議的時候您有沒有掌握那協議的相關的內容"},{"start":6872.532,"end":6898.26,"text":"是108年跟10那個時候還不是外交部長沒有沒有就是最近的時候因為他這個今年的8因為他呢是要修正這個海關進口稅責所以才就進口一些農書對他簽約的時間很早嘛那跟您沒有關係但是呢他到要準備實施上路的時候那您當時已經是外交部長了所以呢這個附委審查呢是113年的11月29號"},{"start":6900.461,"end":6928.259,"text":"委員會是在這個財政委員會審查那是114年的3月20號然後呢不需要協商行政院提案通過那呢當時我有看到新聞上面您有針對這個台灣跟巴拉圭那經過這樣子的一個協議之後那可能在外交上面能夠更緊密的結合那這個部分可不可以為我們說明一下其實台巴的經貿關係對雙方都很重要因為它有一個"},{"start":6929.659,"end":6948.909,"text":"難追共同市場有將近3億人口所以假設有自由貿易協定類似那當然他的進口台灣因為這個包括牛肉豬肉等另外就是我們現在那邊要設科學園區一個智慧化的科技園區本來有一個工業區在東方市"},{"start":6949.529,"end":6954.134,"text":"後來就是因為有些很多紛爭一直都無法開發那我們現在解決了所有問題因為我們現在台灣已經有企業包括像我們最近那個電動巴士國家隊經過我們國家審查過國產化的就去那邊已經有運電巴過去而且會設廠"},{"start":6968.47,"end":6984.291,"text":"另外也有紡織業 人造纖維會在那邊因為他們有很好的水力發電也是綠電另外包括AI計算這些包括美國的國務卿Rubio他都有提到巴拉圭是很適合做AI資料中心的地方"},{"start":6984.611,"end":6998.363,"text":"所以我們過去會覺得說這些地方好像相對來講沒有那麼多商機可是我們現在發現跟我們建交反而我們可以運用在當地國的投資免關稅不然這個南美的關稅是很高的同樣我們對他進口台灣也是免關稅這樣也可以促進他產業的發展"},{"start":7004.588,"end":7007.551,"text":"所以您剛講到免關稅那實際上面我們免關稅那關稅修正到這個包含是說調降巴拉圭的去骨豬肉或者是已經調製或保存的牛雜碎等等的"},{"start":7020.982,"end":7030.305,"text":"那這些呢 是稅率降到免稅那這個部分呢 農業部當時的說明因為 不好意思 因為外交部 農業部跟這個財政委員會我們共同針對這個台八的相關的協議一定都是有參與到的那不會只有外交部嘛 有相關的評估可能是其他的部會"},{"start":7042.529,"end":7063.6,"text":"那當時農業部的說明裡面他就講到說調降巴拉圭農產品關稅對我國的影響在冷凍去骨豬肉這個部分他寫到調降巴拉圭冷凍豬肉的關稅將可以替代自歐盟進口的部分高價豬肉對我國的養豬產業不至於造成影響"},{"start":7064.801,"end":7076.296,"text":"那這個我不曉得這個部長知不知道這件事情就是說我們在台巴協議的時候呢我們把豬肉冷凍去骨豬肉的關稅降到零了"},{"start":7077.216,"end":7102.708,"text":"我知道最近開始實施所以貝尼亞總統也認為這是一個非常重大的一個雙邊關係的突破那至於說農業部他基於他專業的評估那個進口這個巴拉圭的牛肉零關稅的時候當然他現在有一定的這個進口量但是對他們來講是出口國台灣是會變得最重要"},{"start":7103.468,"end":7121.924,"text":"但是這件事情在包含雲林的豬農開始有非常多的抗議這個也是要跟這個部長做一個報告那巴拉圭豬肉漲到林關水那當初講的農業部的他的所謂的專業意見是不會被豬農造成影響但是實際上面我們的豬農有非常非常大的反彈在雲林等養豬的相關的縣市"},{"start":7129.811,"end":7143.023,"text":"所以呢在這樣子的一個經貿相關的這個我們的簽訂的時候對我們是有一些地方有加分的但對我們的某一些產業它也可能受到傷害那我們不能說因為呢我們簽了這個相關的合約然後我們"},{"start":7146.826,"end":7167.751,"text":"有一些產業受到正面的影響但是對於負面的影響這個部分我們就好像並不是這麼在乎尤其是豬農在台灣來講是非常非常重要的一個產業就像是先前以前可能我們防止非洲豬瘟然後我們這個豬肉的市場或者是說美國當時來豬進口的時候豬農的相關的反彈等等的"},{"start":7171.872,"end":7198.71,"text":"所以豬農對於這樣子的一個台巴協議把豬肉降到零關稅這件事情已經開始表達非常多的不滿那我能夠理解外交部這邊的想法是說我們兩邊的雙邊互惠那你給我們免稅或低稅率那我們這邊也必須要在巴拉圭所需要之處給予零關稅或是低稅率這個我是能夠理解的"},{"start":7199.19,"end":7204.716,"text":"但是對於這個豬農所受到因為我們的這個雙邊的外交關係所受到的重創所受到的影響以及他們的不滿我覺得還是必須要反應讓外交部知道那我想要最後請教的是說那既然現在有跟您提到這件事情有沒有可能外交部這裡再去協同農業部"},{"start":7221.272,"end":7224.977,"text":"許問一下他們當初說不會受到影響但是豬農有反彈這件事情是不是請農業部他們能夠去跟豬農了解一下或者是說明一下或者是說在他們所需要相關的補貼補償或協助上面能夠做好"},{"start":7239.895,"end":7244.381,"text":"因為呢一個一個反推回來之後最後會推到的是因為我們做台巴的外交就像呢川普的這個關稅貿易戰我們也經常就是在外交委員會來詢問嘛那這種跨委員會的這個情況那雖然呢不是這個豬肉的部分"},{"start":7257.396,"end":7266.927,"text":"評估不是由外交部主責但它是為了增進台巴之間的經貿關係以及外交關係所以推演到最後其實還是兩國之間的關係的緊密程度所以我在這邊呢想要請這個我們的外交部長"},{"start":7272.614,"end":7278.558,"text":"是不是回去可以開通農業部請他們針對過去他們講說不會受到影響這個部分重新評估並且跟包含是雲林等縣市養豬比較多的縣市去做一個好的溝通如果真的豬農感受到會受到影響也必須要有相關的對應的措施"},{"start":7294.247,"end":7309.878,"text":"我們的政府部會不會是分外交部、農業部每個部會然後互不隸屬、互不關心所以在這個部分我想要請問部長是不是可以回去跟農業部來溝通一下這個豬農現在反應非常非常的激烈這個情況"},{"start":7311.679,"end":7334.621,"text":"我們會按照委員的意思來辦理當然我們也尊重農業部專業的判斷確實這個外交是總和外交是全國人的事情其實這個是雙向因為台灣現在的豬肉出口因為我們都拔針了而且非疫區這個有時候是雙向怎麼樣幫助我們的"},{"start":7336.079,"end":7343.889,"text":"農民啊能夠擴大市場這也是最近包括去巴拉圭比如說食品加工其實巴拉圭的牛肉"},{"start":7345.721,"end":7374.201,"text":"這個我們台灣的這個企業是覺得加工之後是非常有衝突沒有因為台灣有出口到包括美國對我知道因為台灣對於牛肉是比較沒有這麼量這麼大啦那對豬肉的影響一定會比較大如果你問牛跟豬的話來講的話豬肉對於豬農台灣的豬農的數量非常多我們養豬的品質也非常的好所以在豬肉相關的這個品項降到零關稅的時候那難免我們的豬農他可能"},{"start":7375.762,"end":7380.503,"text":"會有覺得有壓力或者說會認為會影響到他們的這個產業那如果說呢只是他們的誤會那希望說外交部這裡可以告訴農業部請他們去做說明那如果真的有影響的話農業部重新評估真的有影響的話該輔導的該協助的該協助開拓市場的這件事情呢一定要做"},{"start":7398.928,"end":7424.667,"text":"那因為他推到最後極致是我們台灣跟巴拉圭之間的互動關係我們中華民國的外交所以還是希望由我們外交部長能夠向農業部這邊來做一個說明就是說我們這裡接收到的信息我們有跟農業部長雙部長會議我們會來反映但是我就跟委員講這個不是零和我都同意我們現在利用巴拉圭其實我在跟很多的養豬業"},{"start":7426.089,"end":7432.128,"text":"尤其是智慧養豬的這些青龍討論整個要去巴拉圭設廠"},{"start":7433.561,"end":7461.413,"text":"然後其實善用巴拉圭在南追共同市場這個龐大的人口以及他們可以出口他們到美國到歐洲其實包括跟歐盟也在簽自由貿易協定您講的是青農的部分但我講的是在像雲林的傳統的豬農所以說雲林傳統豬農才是因為我對雲林有一定的了解沒有 我跟您說包含是丁學中委員跟張家俊委員都收到非常多來自豬農的抗議"},{"start":7462.313,"end":7467.836,"text":"所以這個抗議是確實存在的不是我今天一個人在這邊就覺得可以胡亂的來講說豬農的我同意委員剛剛的提醒我也會去推動只是我想說這不是零和我們只要讓台灣的農業包括養豬業走出去"},{"start":7479.183,"end":7504.272,"text":"因為像菲律賓也是另外一個很好的所以我們也有額外的投資所以我理解我們必須簽訂這樣子的協議對某些產業是好的嘛但當豬農他們有抗議確實有在抗議的時候那我覺得我們也應該要負責不管是在外交上面的溝通或者是農業部上面的評估以及溝通我們都希望能夠讓外交好的同時對於國內的一些重要產業尤其是傳統的相關的農業"},{"start":7507.173,"end":7529.784,"text":"農牧業 那他們也能夠感到安心 好不好好 謝謝部長 好 我們一起來推動好 謝謝謝巧勳委員的質詢接下來有鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在那待會我們在馬文清委員執行後休息五分鐘我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":7535.692,"end":7560.901,"text":"社會主席麻煩請部長可以了嗎?部長可以了嗎?可以喔,我也好好的,部長好府院黨高層發生了共諜案讓全體的國人非常的痛心"},{"start":7562.321,"end":7587.327,"text":"之前請教部長的是有關於在外交部伴隨在外交部長身邊的一些機要他們進行安全查核的狀況吳釗燮已經成為我們在國安上、外交上一個非常嚴重的破口"},{"start":7588.906,"end":7611.389,"text":"任內六年內斷交八個邦交國當然裡面最可惡的是中華人民共和國不斷地在挖我國外交的牆角這也是為什麼在外交戰上面這麼的重要大家都支持外交部希望把工作給做好沒想到"},{"start":7612.881,"end":7641.73,"text":"我們的吳釗燮部長旁邊養了一個共諜長年洩露資料目前吳釗燮他的親信何仁傑已經起訴了起訴代表案件偵查終結了他所洩露的機密資訊對我們的外交所造成的傷害外交部進行了評估沒有有傷害大不大大非常大"},{"start":7643.427,"end":7662.329,"text":"就是傷害大那何仁傑當然接受司法審判嘛你認為吳釗燮要不要負責這個有檢調單位跟司法單位我們分兩個層次嘛何仁傑的部分司法檢調當然追溯的是刑事責任嘛"},{"start":7663.072,"end":7680.323,"text":"我說吳釗燮要不要負責是政治責任他養在旁邊的人洩露的資訊部長剛說對我國國家外交國安造成非常大的傷害吳釗燮要不要負政治責任就是我的問題因為在這個"},{"start":7681.96,"end":7709.488,"text":"檢察官的起訴書上也呈現了一些我想對外交傷害的描述至於說您在質詢我我的看法我都誠實講包括這個查核的範圍因為他接觸的機密的程度怎麼樣能夠確實來落實這個我也都我們都會透過這個事件來做檢討跟改善你覺得吳釗燮要不要負政治責任"},{"start":7710.959,"end":7731.458,"text":"這個所謂政治責任就是有一個政務官自己去判斷他自己判斷就對了嘛他自己要知所進退嘛 部長你的意思是這樣嘛委員如果有機會的話可以問他我就沒有機會啊 是啊 法治委員會請了他好幾次啊他不來就是不來啊好像現在全中華民國 我們整個台灣吳釗燮最大吳釗燮最大"},{"start":7734.901,"end":7762.904,"text":"什麼人都管不到他他也不用管任何人我是沒機會問到他啦所以我才請教部長沒關係你是現任的部長要你去批判前任的部長我也不要為難你這不是我的初衷但是在國會殿堂我們一定要利用機會說出非常多台灣人的心聲啊造成這麼大的外交國安破口啊還有臉賴在位子上"},{"start":7764.688,"end":7781.837,"text":"還有臉賴在位子上啊這什麼前外交部部長啊無恥至極啊自己不知道自己對國家造成的傷害有多大啊還賴在位子上啊立法院請他來都不敢來啊來 第二個剛剛部長說 起訴書你都看過了嘛對吧"},{"start":7792.373,"end":7804.047,"text":"剛剛你講到起訴書有描述對國家安全外交傷害很大嘛那代表部長起訴書看過了嘛對吧是好2022年"},{"start":7805.956,"end":7830.356,"text":"外交電報屏外洩駐美代表蕭美琴很生氣啊那時候我們的副總...呃...現在的副總統當時的駐美代表非常火大我們駐美代表處的機密外洩造成美國的不信任結果洩密的來源不是駐美代表處部長你知不知道當時洩密的來源是哪裡"},{"start":7832.54,"end":7852.548,"text":"就這個個案我不清楚真的喔那個部長你回去再把起訴書再把它看得更詳細一點看完我相信你會掌握更清楚的線索所以我一開始我在開宗明義的請教你嘛何仁杰他搞出來的洞對我們的傷害有多大"},{"start":7853.379,"end":7882.024,"text":"因為傷害造成了法律責任、政治責任我們追究那但是,與此同時怎麼去修補這個傷害也是很重要的事嘛你一定要先知道傷害在哪裡才知道要如何修補嘛我的思考邏輯是這個樣子啦對,才能做好損害控管所以,2022年我們的駐美代表蕭美琴很生氣的這件事情"},{"start":7883.14,"end":7893.246,"text":"那時候瘋傳媒啊還寫一個評論外交電報評外洩啊蕭美琴該火大的對象就是她您知不知道那個她是誰啊這個報導裡面有寫啊是 吳釗燮嘛欸 這個報導裡面就是吳釗燮嘛那2022年警鈴都已經響了2022年警鈴都已經響了"},{"start":7912.282,"end":7937.199,"text":"結果呢 等到真的出事了真的出事了結果這個傢伙還賴在位子上我老實講讓我覺得真的是嘆為觀止啊不知道該怎麼樣啊 形容那藉由質詢部長這件事情因為啊 那個起訴書上面所寫的內容指證歷歷啦我們哪些外交活動"},{"start":7938.77,"end":7966.662,"text":"被吳釗燮旁邊養的共諜搞得亂七八糟的上面都有寫啦我希望部長還有外交部的同仁辛苦啦前面的人捅的馬蜂窩我們在第一線辛苦的外交同仁現在要收拾善後因為最近在接見一些美國友人跟智庫的時候他們也很關心這件事"},{"start":7968.14,"end":7991.57,"text":"我們相信台灣這邊的官員跟他們講很多事結果台灣官員旁邊養的共諜把他跑去跟北京講這對我們外交傷害非常的嚴重這種關係的修補漏洞把他補起來都是非常重要的事部長你同意嗎"},{"start":7992.993,"end":8015.341,"text":"同意好啊加油啊加油啊希望接下來上次你所提到的你們有關於啊人事特殊安全查核制度的改革能夠早一點落實不要再發生這樣的事情了好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝黃國昌呃執行接下來有馬文清上台執行"},{"start":8026.939,"end":8029.72,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝部長已經站上來了部長早部長今天我們也特別提到很多委員也在關切就是說中東的緊張局勢因為事實上他從112年開始因為以巴戰爭還有葉門的"},{"start":8046.664,"end":8049.227,"text":"這個胡塞組織的鴻海危機其實它就一直持續到現在美軍也一直在增強在中東地區的兵力部署的這個航母艦隊也從來沒有減少而且甚至近期更將印太的兵力往中東地區去做支援"},{"start":8064.304,"end":8080.735,"text":"那在昨天美國政府更宣布美軍已經在參戰的邊緣而且要求伊朗無條件投降美國務院也連續發出安全警訊要求不要前往伊朗、伊拉克以及以色列川普總統更要所有人離開德黑蘭這些事態外交部目前都有掌握嗎我們就是全力掌握中那現在我們的掌握跟美國的做法有什麼不一樣"},{"start":8093.976,"end":8099.959,"text":"我們當然有跟包括美方還有他們各國的大使館交換這些資訊來做因應那有沒有成立專責的工作小組跟外館建立高風險地區通報機制或者跟第三國協調撤離的機制"},{"start":8110.706,"end":8116.85,"text":"有 我們都有標準作為程序要針對這個就是在中東的這個戰事的發展密切注意跟相對的來做因應部長我們想要比較清楚的回答因為它已經發展 事態已經發展到這樣因為外交部直到昨天晚上六點的時候還是維持以色列橙色警訊因為美國都已經改成紅色最高等級我們還是橙色的這個原因是什麼"},{"start":8141.736,"end":8163.77,"text":"其實有些國家有紅色有些國家是有橙色有些是部分紅色部分橙色我們是部分紅色部分橙色我們哪裡是紅色北京跟嘉薩附近這裡我們是紅色我們認為其他地方還不到這樣的地步因為它都有它的一個評估的標準所以我們就是根據這個標準來辦理"},{"start":8165.342,"end":8167.264,"text":"可是美國已經發出這樣子的紅色的警訊了但是像日韓像很多國家他們還是維持也是橙色"},{"start":8176.314,"end":8194.764,"text":"那我們其實不是看日韓啦我們看的應該是我們能夠對因為日韓有些他們在撤離或者他們跟周邊國家的協調他們可以往周邊國家跑的時候其實他們都還有一些規劃跟他們的一些撤離的機制那我們的台貿的這個專責的工作單位"},{"start":8201.636,"end":8226.194,"text":"他們現在目前我們相駐德黑蘭的台貿中心是否要撤離因為我們在伊朗沒有代表處嘛就是這個貿協啊這個德黑蘭中心就是這個負責他當然是經濟部的單位不過我們的聯繫都非常的密切那因為我們針對旅外的國人都有這個登錄啦當然他有一些他沒有登錄他會來做"},{"start":8227.455,"end":8232.076,"text":"因為剛剛您說有掌握這相關的這些態勢的發展我現在要說的是美國已經發出紅色警戒那我們還在橙色那也如果我們認為這樣可以那另外伊朗是全部的紅色嗎那紅色警戒我們台貿中心是否應該要撤離因為你都已經紅色警戒他連地方都沒得跑他們是都有做準備有做的可以去哪裡"},{"start":8252.64,"end":8256.686,"text":"他們接下來要打第三區我們的台貿中心就是在第三區他們接下來已經宣布要打第三區我們就在那裡那你現在還不走要等什麼時候才走"},{"start":8268.422,"end":8283.488,"text":"因為九人裡面走了三人然後另外三個人已經安排要離境因為當然有時候我們的政府單位或所屬的法人機構他們怎麼去照顧我們在當地的人讓他能夠順利的離境這個也是他的工作可是也必須要照顧自己的安全"},{"start":8284.108,"end":8290.291,"text":"不能置於險境部長那個都沒關係我剛剛講的是台貿中心已經是被宣稱已經要攻擊的周邊區域了你們應該要做的是他有他即使照顧國人也要照顧自己他自己都不安全他沒有辦法再做後續的工作這個部分他們可以撤離去哪裡可以撤離去哪裡可以撤離他們都有做好的來請說"},{"start":8307.301,"end":8321.395,"text":"這個部分簡短跟穩報告您剛提到第三區的確伊朗國家電視台就在第三區昨天我們跟孫主任冒險孫主任也提到這個部分那他們的確聽到那個聲音離辦公室有一段距離那目前他們最近可能會測網報告的距離不是用聽的"},{"start":8322.498,"end":8349.271,"text":"他們是先聽到聲音對 我說爆炸的距離不是用聽的對他今天一打過來你連跑都沒機會跑那目前的話呢就是說像我們剛剛博鳳說的我們其他六位的官員包含孫主任本人我們之前那個已經跟他們提到就是說那個撤離的路線是會往土耳其那主任他還有另外一條路線是往離海往北邊走那地方是相對來講安全的已經有安排有 有安排那主任他可能這一兩天就會動身往離海的方向去做一個自我就是說一個安全的一個處理的一個動作"},{"start":8350.131,"end":8358.554,"text":"好 那可見我們也知道那裡的態勢是非常緊張而且它不是現在才開始剛剛部長我們有提到從112年就開始可是我們在中東地區緊張態勢已經持續這麼久的時間外交部為什麼在本月初的時候公告我們啟動青年學子赴以色列度假打工這樣的一個申請的訊息我們的原因是什麼"},{"start":8375.783,"end":8391.892,"text":"就是我們就按照標準作業程序的判斷嘛那因為這個因為其他國家還是都維持包括像韓國、澳洲、紐西蘭所以我們怎麼樣跟國際同步那這個對台語關係也很重要可是並不代表說我們要去讓國人置入險境我們會"},{"start":8392.893,"end":8400.878,"text":"檢討情勢的變化所以後來會暫緩也是因為情勢有變化因為那時候還沒有發生戰爭發生戰爭之後我們就暫緩了可是如果部長你6月3號還在往官網上面今天如果有疏失我覺得我們可以勇敢的去面對而不是在這裡去說這些理由今天如果6月3號有人看到的時候部長聽我講完那個不是過不急你的孩子你會讓他去那裡嗎"},{"start":8421.292,"end":8431.944,"text":"你不是笑話嗎今天如果我們沒有充分掌握所有的孩子所有的國人如果你知道專業更不可以用這種小編你的小編都在上面寫什麼就這個問題請你尊重我外交部的同仁專業的判斷"},{"start":8436.429,"end":8443.492,"text":"他是網路語言外交部的官網可以發生網路語言嗎部長如果可以你如果知道是專業你更應該要這樣好好的我們本來應該好好的談這是一個非常嚴肅的問題你讓我們年輕人在沒有充分的資訊之下他們相信的會是外交部外交部在你的官網上面鼓勵我們所有的青年人去以色列還有這樣的"},{"start":8464.1,"end":8469.226,"text":"他來登記我們都還沒有在執行中你6月3號還在受理如果他報名了他6月10號要出門可以嗎有人請你了解外交的專業可以嗎 外交專業是什麼我要為我的同仁"},{"start":8478.797,"end":8480.017,"text":"這叫專業是讓我們的年輕人到一個以色列戰火衝刺的地方什麼叫誇張什麼叫誇張什麼叫扭曲事實你6月3號是不是有那一篇6月3號"},{"start":8501.205,"end":8506.108,"text":"你去查看看6月3號美國是什麼樣的等級什麼叫沒有發生戰爭你胡說八道尊重外交專業我們就是不認為你有外交專業如果今天要講到這樣我們今天已經被你害的是韓國的外交紐西蘭嗎"},{"start":8519.258,"end":8526.241,"text":"你看的是澳洲 紐西蘭如果他們已經有人犧牲了你還是讓他犧牲嗎你今天如果是專業部長今天如果你是專業你在之前就應該要探訪如果外交協議或者辦活動是你的主要重點你應該讓現在社會正氣所以年輕人要去外交要去度假打工那是雙方一個度假打工辦法的受理的時間"},{"start":8548.971,"end":8554.712,"text":"我們當然會因情勢做調整啊你6月3號 包括情勢的層級都依照國際的規範跟國際對接部長因為這樣會傷害國家我才會這樣子回應你部長 部長因為會傷害台語的關係我才會這樣講啊部長你傷害到什麼因為您的發言傷害到我們的外交關係你的外交關係是什麼以色列會在乎的如果你認為這樣會傷害你告訴大家我們會傷害什麼"},{"start":8578.121,"end":8586.771,"text":"因為當其他國家還維持跟以色列度假打工我們自己單方面去停止那個時候還沒有發生戰爭這會傷害我們產業關係部長 把他講清楚其他國家什麼時候把這個危險的等級換掉的"},{"start":8596.081,"end":8622.534,"text":"都是按照警示標準的調整這個程序就是這樣子部長什麼時候你是外交部長我一跟你講說6月1號的時候包括澳洲紐西蘭韓國等等跟以色列有度假打工的國家還是維持這個辦法的實施但是不代表我們要出發也不代表我們完成了審查我們國人他在乎的是因為有太多扭曲了我必須要說明因為這涉及到我們的外交"},{"start":8624.229,"end":8631.591,"text":"你讓我們的國人深入險境你還敢這樣說你還敢這樣說 你還敢這樣說你們執政以後丟了幾個邦交國然後又有洩密的問題你讓我們的年輕人深入險境讓我們的年輕人深入險境你的小編可以在網路上面這樣子的編冒險王 什麼叫冒險王"},{"start":8651.736,"end":8656.722,"text":"你的孩子你會這樣讓他去嗎你扭曲事實的話不會接受這個扭曲的啊什麼叫扭曲事實你到6月3號你的官網還沒換欸我們的網站最重要那時候還沒有發生以色列跟伊朗的戰事"},{"start":8666.786,"end":8670.468,"text":"我們根據警示在辦理 根據國際的規範與其他國家同步可恥 今天如果我們發現我們氣象報告說哪一個地方可能在禮拜六或禮拜天或下個禮拜會有暴風雨會有颱風的時候你會在那時候還鼓勵你的孩子下個禮拜去那裡辦活動這個禮拜去那裡辦錄影嗎"},{"start":8691.781,"end":8697.304,"text":"部長 將心比心你今天 你今天要站在這個位你今天要站在這個位你如果要站在這裡 做維委員在那裡爛掉我不是這樣的人 我也知道所以我們剛開始很理性的跟你談沒有傷害 你有傷害沒有傷害到什麼外交關係你告訴我 傷害到哪一個外交關係我們跟以色列簽了這樣一個度假打工"},{"start":8720.195,"end":8730.041,"text":"獨家老公你可不可以請黑熊學院的去他們的成員需要面對的因為他們現在在教我們所有的國人現在他們需要的是暫時的一些實務的經驗如果你這樣說你怕跟以色列傷害到這樣的協議就可以推這樣的活動沒有國際規範"},{"start":8744.489,"end":8747.87,"text":"國家的安全是一個外交部長掌握所有國際態勢除非你根本不在乎如果你不在乎才會繼續做這樣的事而且在國會殿堂還可以持續這樣講我剛剛舉例你應該很清楚如果今天"},{"start":8763.194,"end":8776.8,"text":"我們事實有一些處我必須說明對國家的外交關係會影響我也必須要澄清6月3號他就已經是這樣然後你們鼓勵我們的孩子去冒險就跟我剛剛講的如果已經有戰爭發生你已經來不及部長戰爭發生你已經來不及很遺憾我們國家的外交部長是你林佳龍"},{"start":8787.85,"end":8803.423,"text":"您的行為在傷害台灣的外交謝謝馬文欣委員的諮詢接下來我們現在重新宣告待會王宏威委員諮詢完畢之後休息五分鐘那繼續由葉延芷委員上台諮詢麻煩請外交部長 謝謝"},{"start":8822.689,"end":8849.306,"text":"部長我先來關心一下台美關稅談判就是其實最近消息非常的少那90天的那個暫停期大概是到7月8號就到了我是看到最近是外交部次長陳明齊他可能是談判團的代表之一他是在5月30號的時候媒體報導說有信心談到一個好完整又漂亮的協議他是非常充滿信心而且談到如果別人是10%的話我們是有機會可以談到10%以下"},{"start":8851.167,"end":8876.907,"text":"請問一下那個部長現在因為只剩下18天7月8號就到了嘛那目前大概我們跟美國談判的狀況是如何跟委員報告在曾立軍副院長的這個主持下目前台美有關於關稅的談判都順利進行中那這一方希望我們提出最好的方案我們也已經提出他們也覺得相當完整他希望我們提出對他們來說最好的方案對彼此"},{"start":8877.828,"end":8904.595,"text":"當然也要對我們最好那對我們好的地方在哪裡我們就是希望說透過這一次的這個關稅的談判包括我們能夠建構台美的這個經貿還有科技產業的合作 更緊密的關係那關稅的部分這樣 部長 因為你回答很空洞 我來問因為那個陳明祺也有提到透過談判希望能夠釐清美方具體的關切事項請問一下美方具體的關切事項是什麼"},{"start":8906.942,"end":8924.838,"text":"其實他們都有公開講至少除了關稅之外非關稅障礙包括出口管制包括投資包括參購既然都已經公開講了為什麼我們還不斷談判去釐清美方具體關切事項他們關切事項現在很具體了因為那是5月30號現在的情形應該是很多的進展譬如說是什麼"},{"start":8929.703,"end":8947.172,"text":"我覺得很奇怪一件事情比如說像日本跟美國談判他們很多細節其實他們國內大家都掌握例如說像美國跟日本現在就卡在汽車關稅而且日本很多東西是不讓的因為他們知道說會站在日本的角度去跟美國談判關稅"},{"start":8948.493,"end":8967.382,"text":"那有的時候你適時的揭露一些具體的細節讓國內可以討論實際上國內的民意也可以成為政府對外談判的一個籌碼跟後盾而不是說好像我們現在針對美國談判一切都是以美國為主美國要我們怎麼樣我們就怎麼樣沒有站在台灣的利益去做這個事情"},{"start":8967.922,"end":8996.263,"text":"那其實這個是沒有你現在就都不能講嘛都是講一些口號嘛空洞跟其他國家都不一樣嘛所以我們現在好像大家在等開盲盒一樣7月8號告訴大家到時候能夠接受不能接受也已經談完了其實我覺得這是一件很恐怖的事另外再問一下因為潘孟安總統府秘書長6月初的時候到美國參加一個氣候的一個能源永續能源會議嘛當時可能也有觸及到"},{"start":8997.438,"end":9020.848,"text":"阿拉斯加液化天然氣設施的投資案那這兩天我有看到總統府一直有消息放出來因為都是不具名啊就說 哎呀 潘孟安去啊有助深化台美關係進一步讓雙邊的關係更好但是我非常好奇一件事情就是政府有沒有評估過假設到時候要去投資阿拉斯加這個液化天然氣設施這個到底是好還是不好"},{"start":9021.854,"end":9047.89,"text":"不知道部長您個人看法因為在阿拉斯加州長三月來台灣參加美台商會的忘年會的時候其實跟中油就有簽一個合作的意向書會增加對美國台南機的採購也會評估投資我希望政府可以好好評估這件事情是美國有點明台灣、日本、韓國說希望投資這是一兆多的一個投資案"},{"start":9048.53,"end":9061.148,"text":"那台灣如果要投資的話大概要負擔大概一百億美金這是一些公開資訊講的是十分之一啦他們的提到的十分之一就是一兆四的話十分之一的話就是一千四百億嘛四十四億啦"},{"start":9064.173,"end":9070.061,"text":"44億美金啦我剛剛講台幣啦總投資額的4分之1是這個數字啦那問題是在這個...反正就是很大一筆錢啦就是大概100億美金你說44億美金嗎我按照他們提的方案的總額的資料我只要跟委員講這個數字"},{"start":9080.615,"end":9097.202,"text":"但是有一些資料是說一百億啦沒關係這個但不管怎麼樣都是一個很大的一筆錢可是我看到像在日本喔因為他有點名日本但日本其實國內對這個討論很熱烈而且很多人是持反對意見比如說上百個團體都有寫信給日本首相認為說這個投資案"},{"start":9098.783,"end":9122.381,"text":"是一個最昂貴的一個天然氣開發案而且它對於環境有很大破壞因為它從那個阿拉斯加從那邊拉一個線下來拉一個管線下來它必須要突破八百條河流還有三座山脈施工不易也會破壞很多野生動物的保護區會影響到一些動物的那個休息所以"},{"start":9124.427,"end":9138.486,"text":"國內是很反對日本的官員也多次提出不同的看法日本的保險公司說他們呼籲希望不要對類似的投資案做承保而且他們也希望銀行不要做融資所以這個案子在日本國內是討論很熱烈"},{"start":9140.368,"end":9161.858,"text":"在我們台灣呢 沒有任何的利弊得失的分析就是說 就像陳儒部長你講的我們已經簽了意向書了 好像一句話就帶過可是我們有沒有去評估 第一個 他到底有沒有破壞生態第二個 他這個投資 我們有沒有辦法回本如果沒有辦法回本 純粹是美國點名我們 我們就去投資那請問站在台灣的立場 我們換到什麼"},{"start":9163.427,"end":9191.71,"text":"外交或經貿都要以本國利益為出發不是說一直給現在我覺得台灣的政府都沒有看清楚川普的個性川普不是說你對他擺班的這個對他好然後讓他予取予求他就會對你比較好這一波美國跟各國談判我們都看得非常清楚可是我剛剛聽到部長您的回答都是說我們已經提出一個美方覺得很好的方案"},{"start":9192.35,"end":9199.422,"text":"或者是我們投資這個天然氣美國也會很高興好像都沒有站在台灣的角度去看這個事情有啦 這是前提啦"},{"start":9200.27,"end":9229.071,"text":"台灣優先啦那請問一下你們有沒有那部長因為這個投資天然氣我看到總統府潘孟安秘書長去的時候那你們也都很歡迎啊可不可以至少請政府提出一個分析報告出來嘛在投資上面還有就是因為接下來這個投資之後呢未來政府也要增加對美國天然氣的採購那對美國天然氣採購會不會又是變成說價格高運輸費然後又反過來發電成本提高我們電價又上漲"},{"start":9229.972,"end":9246.203,"text":"我覺得這一系列都要評估都要評估不是說每次都大外宣潘孟安去了好棒喔我們可以投資天然氣因為台美關係又更進一步好棒喔然後台美關稅談判好棒喔我們一定可以談出一個很棒的方案但是我們到底得到什麼"},{"start":9247.301,"end":9265.84,"text":"我們都不知道我是真的很希望政府那個部長啦因為你也算國安團隊一環啦新冒談判你們也有參與可不可以回去建議一下適時的揭露這談判的進度讓國內了解讓大家討論讓大家成為政府的後盾啦不要7月8號開盲盒啦可以嗎"},{"start":9267.176,"end":9277.512,"text":"您的意見我都會反映你也是部長你也可以有一定的決策權讓我講一下以阿拉斯加天然氣的採購跟投資你看最近中東戰爭"},{"start":9279.076,"end":9297.068,"text":"那能源需不需要有安全跟韌性你看喔 包括那個Duckworth這個參議員他來台灣喔他認為說只要是美國輸出的油氣美國他要保護他的航行安全我想這兩位人在這裡 就是說"},{"start":9300.751,"end":9305.035,"text":"這種屬於不只是能源經濟也是個安全議題所以我們怎麼樣站在國家最大的利益但是一定要尊重中油因為它作為採購中油也是配合國安團隊或什麼去投資所以我說你提出一個分析報告你可以把你的意見剛剛講的納進來我跟委員講其實中油評估已經好幾年了"},{"start":9326.372,"end":9348.421,"text":"因為我覺得大家也不要斷章取義因為這個是一個整體的計畫就國安的角度當然大家都支持但是其實比如說跟澳洲去買也是八天天然氣就到台灣他有很多替代方案所以實際上我覺得是需要一個完整評估啦然後適時揭露啦 好不好好 謝謝謝謝葉言之委員的上台質詢接下來由王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":9359.209,"end":9385.982,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請林佳龍部長好 委員好好 部長好剛才您回答馬文君委員的時候說外交是專業那特別提到因為大家都關注在6月3號外交部的這個官方網站裡面小編還說要冒險王那外交是專業那我想請問一下外交部有沒有得知"},{"start":9387.361,"end":9400.967,"text":"在美國在六月之前其實在今年年初曾經提出警告就是在伊朗跟以色列之間會發生空襲有沒有有這些資訊"},{"start":9402.692,"end":9418.908,"text":"呃 我們其實情報我們都有密切在掌握 有啊 總會有交換所以有沒有掌握 有沒有掌握 有沒有 但是對於 國旗日對於它發動戰爭 不懂不懂 有沒有嘛 我剛講說今年年初美國事實上已經釋出這個訊息也有警告 有沒有掌握其實 呃 有或沒有很簡單嘛"},{"start":9420.831,"end":9426.616,"text":"他就在戰爭中啊 包括...怎麼叫他們在戰爭中 如果他們在戰爭中你聽不聽得清楚小編還發這個就是去報險網嗎很簡單的問題嘛 有或者沒有我們都有掌握"},{"start":9435.373,"end":9463.354,"text":"怎麼掌握我要講就是外交事專業事實上中央社早在今年的二月份至少我沒有聽到任何的國安簡報對不對我也沒聽到外交簡報但是我們至少從媒體中央社在今年的年初的時候二月份就從華盛頓發出訊息說美國已經警告在數月之間伊朗跟以色列之間會發生空襲"},{"start":9465.185,"end":9473.934,"text":"好 這是中央社而他引述的都是美國的媒體都是大媒體包括華爾街日報 包括華盛頓郵報所以 部長啊我們為什麼在質疑你們6月3號"},{"start":9481.226,"end":9485.847,"text":"小編還讓我們的青年去冒險因為在之前其實在國際之間早就都有這樣的訊息我們如果沒有掌握啊那真的是笑死人但是如果外交部有掌握的話為什麼還會有那一篇發文這是我們今天所討論的外交部的專業到底在哪裡一種是你們沒有掌握沒有掌握的話外交部該死有掌握"},{"start":9509.315,"end":9513.278,"text":"外交部如果有掌握運出去那樣發文那麼外交部該打屁股你有掌握你還讓小編去發這個文而且你在這邊還強烈的幫小編辯護所以才會讓大家覺得莫名其妙啊還有部長啊你動不動就要說不要傷害就是我們的對外關係台灣的外交我們知道台灣外交非常艱難但是不要隨便的去扣在野黨帽子那我就請問一下喔"},{"start":9537.287,"end":9564.605,"text":"那個部長今年在年初的時候呢應該是去年年底今年年初我們通過通過了這個海關進口稅則這裡面呢對於巴拉圭的五穀豬肉開放進口對於他們的蜂蜜是降稅還有一些他們的農產品都給予甚至有些是給予免關稅還有相關的降稅"},{"start":9567.928,"end":9590.824,"text":"我想請問一下這個內容是不是我們也為了鞏固巴拉圭之間的關係就是我們進行了台巴之間的相關的經濟合作效益這是不是這些相關內容因為這個還是要農業部主政單位他們的評估我們是尊重不過就外交上來講促進台巴之間的貿易關係這是會有幫助的"},{"start":9593.913,"end":9609.96,"text":"这个立法过程呢我不晓得一部长现在全推给那个推给农业部也很奇怪来我告诉各位这个海关进口税则行政院喊请立法院来审议它的修正背景"},{"start":9611.24,"end":9633.469,"text":"開宗明義就是我們中華民國與巴拉圭共同簽就是經濟合作協定就是告訴你什麼時候簽署什麼時候生效他就把這些所有這個簽署協定的相關的這個程序然後期望來由立法院來做海關境的稅責修正所以呢這裡面當然"},{"start":9634.89,"end":9651.715,"text":"主要是牽涉就是進口巴拉圭的相關的農產品還要給予降稅所以我們立法院是完全沒有表決對不對因為這個大家都能夠同意就是我們要鞏固跟我們的邦交國之間的關係我們邦交國也沒剩幾個國家好結果呢因為現在這個稅則通過了結果我們的政府呢農業部竟然去告訴我們的豬農"},{"start":9665.051,"end":9670.336,"text":"說為什麼要進口巴拉圭的五穀豬肉呢因為豬農反彈啊豬農我們不曉得原來這之前都沒有跟豬農事先溝通欸都沒有跟豬農事先溝通然後說這個呢是國民黨同意的"},{"start":9683.479,"end":9701.237,"text":"然後我們就很傻眼啊我們就很傻眼部長這一黨難不難為啊如果我們不同意傷害外交關係如果我們同意這又是變成是國民黨要進口巴拉圭的這個豬肉怎麼樣"},{"start":9705.34,"end":9727.962,"text":"橫豎都會給我們丟帽子嗎因為委員我是第一次聽到的那我為什麼在這邊質詢我們這個海關進口稅我都通過了嘛對不對我為什麼要在這邊質詢我要確認部長你到底有沒有掌握我到現在為止我就覺得你掌握事情太少了都不敢有肯定句連我們已經通過的海關進口稅人都沒有肯定句你要多用功一點所以我確定"},{"start":9729.944,"end":9748.084,"text":"我們通過的海關進口稅則針對相關巴拉圭的農產品不管是開放進口或者是相關的降稅是不是在台巴之間的經濟合作協定裡面我們所協議的事項是不是對"},{"start":9752.892,"end":9770.776,"text":"所以這是配合外交嘛我就是要外交部這一句話我要講的是我們支持外交但是最後不要這樣子嘛每次都這樣子人牽手牽手然後背後下毒手回到地方跟豬農講為什麼進口這個巴拉圭的農產品呢全部都是國民黨是不是"},{"start":9773.397,"end":9775.559,"text":"所以拜託我們外交很困難但是呢要負起這個相關的責任來也請我們的政府不要把這種只要人家豬農有反彈你就隨便推責任好不好這一點也請外交部回去跟農業部講農業部不要當小孬孬啊"},{"start":9793.95,"end":9799.575,"text":"農業部在上面通通告訴你啊很好啊對我們的豬農沒有影響啊臺灣的豬肉非常好啊通通沒有問題啊怎麼回過頭來跑去跟國內的豬農把責任全部推給在野黨呢也拜託部長能夠回去反映謝謝謝謝王宏偉委員的諮詢那現在我們休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續詢答"},{"start":10172.53,"end":10175.996,"text":"現在開始開會我們請林彥秀委員上台質詢"},{"start":10189.806,"end":10216.163,"text":"謝謝主席 部長我好像這一屆第一次跟你打訊號謝謝委員部長 我關心的議題目前以疫的衝突目前是持續的升級現在看起來好像沒有降溫的跡象所以有幾件事情跟我們相關的是我關注關心的就是說以色列的旅遊警示目前我們仍舊沒有升級我們目前還是停留在橙色還沒有到紅色的警戒 為什麼"},{"start":10220.057,"end":10235.589,"text":"就是依照標準數位程序來做判斷那因為國際上也有很多國家也是就是列為橙色因為它的各種警示的內容我們要去看其實我們的橙色其實相當於接近紅色對啦 但是"},{"start":10238.567,"end":10257.675,"text":"一般民眾就看不到你知道嗎因為我們看新聞如果多關注一些國際新聞我們會覺得未來有可能會擴大所以兩邊的無論是我們青年打工的部分國人旅遊的部分或者甚至是有經貿往來的一些台商們"},{"start":10259.301,"end":10276.113,"text":"他就會看到說現在已經是紅色警戒橙色接近紅色 因為你在講橙色紅色你覺得已經差不多但是你覺得仍舊對我們來說還是有模糊的地方你直接跟他講紅色他就很清楚沒有 紅色要去執行的話你要全面撤離"},{"start":10278.983,"end":10291.928,"text":"因為在以色列情形很特別 因為他們常年都是在戰爭威脅下那他們有應變 他們有做好很好的這一些安全的措施所以我們是 陳澈就是避免前往 不要再去了但是站在那邊"},{"start":10292.928,"end":10308.443,"text":"居住的人他們要撤離我們也會協助我清楚我們會給予協助但我們並不知道有多少國人或青年打工什麼時候要去或者是旅遊有沒有人要去我們沒有辦法完全掌握那個數字跟要去的地點"},{"start":10308.763,"end":10318.252,"text":"我們對於我們有這個所謂的登陸所以在兩百多人都是長年我們都因為好沒關係部長因為我時間很短因為我是外國文匯的部長我是很善意的啦所以我只把我的問題凸顯出來我們青年打工的計畫目前是暫緩還沒有下架嘛你只是喊暫緩"},{"start":10332.828,"end":10342.42,"text":"因為我們的實施日跟以色列先前談好那個時間因為那個時候還沒有發生這次伊朗跟以色列的戰爭有多少人報名?零人那他們那邊有沒有人報名要來台灣?也是零"},{"start":10347.967,"end":10371.283,"text":"都是零好那這個部分我清楚了解但是我覺得目前官網還有留著這件事情所以我覺得後面你可以掛號就是說因為目前那邊的情勢狀況不清楚你要解釋清楚因為我不知道後面會不會有人報名我們已經告訴國人不要前往了那因為網站"},{"start":10373.665,"end":10383.914,"text":"網..網站上只是寫還..還掛在那邊只是寫狀態但是是不是完全撤離齁因為這涉及到很複雜對這我知道但是你後..你下面可能要做更多的說明這是我要提醒你的地方齁那.."},{"start":10386.195,"end":10405.875,"text":"打工的這個公告從上網到撤銷總共歷時11天那你剛剛跟我講說沒有人報名那我現在關注另外第二個點就是說我們目前我們跟以色列那邊有雙邊的協定包括在經濟教育跟經貿的部分跟資安的部分其實都有很多合作的往來"},{"start":10406.696,"end":10417.457,"text":"那請問這34項雙邊的協議會不會因為戰事的升溫有哪些是受到影響影響後續我們是做什麼樣的考量跟補助或措施"},{"start":10419.043,"end":10442.704,"text":"你有沒有盤點我們都有根據現在情勢針對雙邊的交流包括訪問我們在做一些檢討包括經貿包括金融包括科技包括資安因為相對你的警示層級提高的話有一些事項就會可能會那有一些台商的往來可能因為現在的戰事暫緩有沒有這樣的狀況你有沒有充分的掌握有"},{"start":10443.405,"end":10455.293,"text":"因為台商在那邊其實很多時候定居在那裡甚至婚姻甚至有他們自己其實就像有些已經幾乎等於這類人了我都了解我都善意啦但是我只要盤點你有沒有掌握這些狀況包括兩邊生意往來的或資安的有沒有受到影響我們現在給予什麼樣的協助你有沒有去盤點出來可不可以有一份完整的報告提供給本席因為戰爭的警示的層級還有這些旅遊我們來提供"},{"start":10474.445,"end":10500.993,"text":"那另外就是說我們在2023年11月份的時候當時以色列受到衝擊的時候我們有給捐贈50萬美金的部分那外交部目前無論對以色列或伊朗我們鼓勵台灣人應該反國之外我們其他幾乎其實都沒有再進一步的表態或具體的表示那對於目前的狀況我們整體行政院也好外交部有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":10501.929,"end":10521.142,"text":"有 我們其實對像醫院或者是學校的這一些我們的這個援助雪中送炭 以色列人是非常的感謝跟感動那我們駐那邊的大使 李雅萍大使幾乎現在跟以色列的來往包括政府還有國會我知道 這個我新聞都可以看到"},{"start":10522.723,"end":10548.061,"text":"我們目前外交部只呼籲相關兩邊保持冷靜保持自治那外交部除了撤僑之外你還會不會有任何具體的表態跟表示除了對我們國人撤僑或幫助協助是我剛剛問的另外一部分你會用書面回我我們在加強跟以色列的交流合作有很大的提升因為這個中東的戰爭另外就是因為伊朗背後跟中國的關係那以色列更確認跟台灣"},{"start":10550.042,"end":10562.654,"text":"我們不只是理念相近而且利益一致所以台語關係的提升很快速而且是範圍非常的廣這在外交上是很重要所以我們任何的一個行為啊我們都要非常注意到對台語關係的影響當然對台語關係的影響對但是對於這個整個戰兩邊的戰爭的態度具體的"},{"start":10570.842,"end":10590.42,"text":"我們目前沒有具體的表態我們只有呼籲兩邊冷靜但是我們無論怎麼樣對外做說明可能都影響的整體包括兩岸國際整個關係都包含在裡面我只是要問你你還會再有進一步的表態嗎我沒有要你怎麼表態但是我問你說你會不會做什麼樣具體的表態"},{"start":10591.481,"end":10607.266,"text":"我們目前還在密切觀察整個戰事可能的演變會不會升高會不會是有談判我們現在先關心的是國人另外就是我們跟台籍關係的維繫至於說其他我們會滾動式的去檢討"},{"start":10609.439,"end":10629.571,"text":"國安會議的層級去做處理討論其實昨天總統也已經都有召開過國安高層會議我們都密切注意跟做好各種的因應高層會議一週幾次 國安會議一週幾次 有沒有加開會議其實包括今天行政院以及其他的包括我想除了外交部其他部會都在開會因應最新情勢的變化"},{"start":10630.211,"end":10638.835,"text":"對 因為這整體的情勢背後也都會影響兩岸的關係我要提醒 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝林恩秀委員的質詢接下來由張啟凱委員上台質詢"},{"start":10662.766,"end":10667.251,"text":"我上次也很肯定你我看你今天早上特別說為了以色列跟伊朗親自衝突要開國安會議"},{"start":10682.972,"end":10698.618,"text":"你說針對那個石油跟天然氣的這個價格行政院長應該今天,因為我雖然在這裡沒有開院會,我都有掌握啊他已經有所裁示市長這次這個衝突啊,彰顯了我們要好好去重視我們的錯誤的能源政策保廷先生,我們現在天然氣佔我們所有發電的佔比多少?"},{"start":10706.892,"end":10716.509,"text":"這個朝五成邁進不錯 蠻精準的 谷泥47現在核冷廢掉之後已經將近五成了那這次這個金色衝突就看到了"},{"start":10717.571,"end":10746.132,"text":"第一個石油跟天然氣在飆漲嘛所以你們要開國安會議嘛這是第一次嘛第二次也是很重要的啊你有沒有發現烏俄戰爭的時候就炸那個天然氣的儲存槽啊對不對是那這是一樣啊你看這個以色列馬上就打的也是對對不對能源跟通訊啊大概是戰爭發生的時候就是第一集啊大概關鍵基礎設施所以你要開火兩個重點第一這個能源政策要好好去想一下你高度依賴天然氣這本身是個問題"},{"start":10747.384,"end":10755.328,"text":"那第二個,上次我肯定你就是高關稅這個談判裡面我們要找到美國願意賣給我們,而且是我們要的嘛會跟我們有個共識,是你說你爭取要跟美國買核能的技術跟他們的設備,對不對沒有啦,我是覺得應該是先解決核廢料其實美國、法國他們都有很先進可以處理核廢料"},{"start":10772.637,"end":10790.412,"text":"因為AIT處長鼓勵人說三次他就是說在核能的技術還有包括核會的處理他們要幫忙他已經講了三次了到後來他受不了他推特上面他自己都還貼上去你不是說要去反應嗎你贊成你沒有去反應我有反應啦美國人應該很高興啊"},{"start":10794.616,"end":10803.702,"text":"因為你賣給我們 我們第一個我們這個逆差就可以 我們賺到錢就減少了所以採購是縮短貿易對我們的電力有幫助然後核電也有技術 項目之一 採購有齁 工廠到底怎樣啦 應該是華爺啊 這個有主管機關啦負責啦 經濟部或者是這個跟這個好 從這次的以色列跟伊朗的這個金氏衝突我們看到兩個很重大歧視 第一個天然氣占比太高 這個抽了能源政策要去調整"},{"start":10823.573,"end":10850.693,"text":"第二個趕快再推動核電特別是美國已經主動開口了要賣給我們核電的技術跟設備包括你剛才說的核威力要處理我覺得委員剛剛提到一點除了這個能源結構以外我們這個天然氣跟油大量的依賴中東這次也說明了這是個風險所以我們能夠增加對美國的採購氣跟油也有增加能源韌性所以這個是國安的一部分"},{"start":10850.993,"end":10871.223,"text":"我贊成啦,你剛剛提到的,不過我跟你講美國現在那個,聽說成本比較高啦,感覺價格會良好嗎?它量大之後,價格就會下來,這個是...量大一點,然後要降下來,像這個保健公可能要比現在的,我們是所有天然氣買的占比,10%是從美國來,那以後可能會變20%或30%,那量就跟你講,保健公不能講,量大了,價格就要降,不能夠一兩倍價格,這樣不行"},{"start":10873.664,"end":10888.064,"text":"所以除了採購如果我們投資的話我們就變成就是會反映在我們未來也有一定的籌碼我們贊成跟美國買天然氣可是價格不能太高來 我們來談一個馬紹爾總統變成漏湯機的事情"},{"start":10892.236,"end":10910.063,"text":"這台鐵到底是外交部的疏忽還是總統府的不對跟委員報告這是總統府第三局的業務但是我是會代為說明我認為真的到他走到最後才突然間有一下雨而且真的他已經走到已經都進場然後已經在落場因為唱完國歌之後他要走回來的時候突然"},{"start":10917.346,"end":10932.794,"text":"有一個大雨 陣雨啦你看馬紹爾那個總統你看就是最後那一段你看那個頭起起那個是多大的雨然後你看這樣很不禮貌啦不是 我覺得委員齁如果您有可以我用一分鐘時間說明一下齁因為他們馬紹爾這個海部總統自己有發聲明喔"},{"start":10936.055,"end":10956.213,"text":"他自己有說明其實這完全沒有私理而且對他們來講這個有一個突然間的陣語這也是一種就是他們在他們文化裡面是代表下雨是一線就是這個所謂的這個好的祝福但我們不去講這個我講的是說他的標準作業程序其實他從車子到然後進場"},{"start":10959.296,"end":10982.737,"text":"到唱國歌然後這個三軍儀隊李炮都完了他在做閱兵的時候在走最後彎回來的那一段突然間有個陣雨這個其實是標準作業程序就是把它走完以前也是這個樣子所以外面的人因為沒有去了解這整個過程就造成誤會好像我們故意要去漏這個雨然後很失禮我們又好像引以為疑"},{"start":10984.038,"end":10990.945,"text":"這個實際上是個好事 國進黨賴清德賴總統最近出訪的話 您的語音會這樣講嗎其實有兩個問題嘛 第一個是你氣象報告的掌握這是一個問題嘛第二個你隨時要應變啊 現在總統出來說的是什麼因為三軍儀隊都是沒有拿雨傘的 跟穿雨衣的在現場 這是兩國的國事訪問耶"},{"start":11005.419,"end":11020.926,"text":"所以其實這個就是標準作為澄清我為什麼說我說外交是專業有一些批評我必須要澄清是因為我覺得我們看專業啦 保定你幫人要辯護啦 不然被困在外面來 這是第三局的業務啦2017年 來來來 保定你看一下看來看來 你當然有專業 我知道這也是專業啦2017年蔡英文總統抵達荒都拉斯的時候 進行經理 你看我們去繞路經理上面當然是可以撐傘的 為什麼不行"},{"start":11031.96,"end":11049.585,"text":"你講一部分的專業 可是更重要的專業跟尊重 專業跟尊重就是像這樣蔡英文總統沒有被淋雨嘛 我也很滿意啊 賴清德總統沒有淋到雨是不是這樣 如果有問題就要去解決問題 不要一直用專業這個名詞這個也是專業啊 洪都道是人家專不專業這兩個都是專業 情況不一樣 都處理得很好"},{"start":11054.578,"end":11072.426,"text":"不過至少不要讓我們總統出去淋雨啦好不好沒有我現在是要說明就是說那天的國事訪問的整個軍理過程都合乎規定而且雙方面都認為這樣是很正常那至於說外面如果斷章取義我作為外交部長我必須替總統府第三局來說"},{"start":11073.046,"end":11077.928,"text":"我們在講說這是天上的祝福嘛這個就是現場的時候喊你總統講的話因為我跟他也很熟他也用這樣的話講所以我們才會隱據來作為一個說明好啦 你至少也承認人家國外的專業嘛 對不對我們自己如果真的有失誤這兩個都是專業 這沒有衝突不過你到底總是不好 對OK 好啦"},{"start":11097.018,"end":11108.245,"text":"早上我看很多人在問你這個去以色列度假打工這個事情你剛講的一個計畫很重要啊以色列就是一個長年戰爭威脅的地方嘛他們的避難設施隨時那個警示 隨時的通訊"},{"start":11113.228,"end":11141.263,"text":"其實他們的狀況我們不能夠用外人去理解在那邊生活不管是在那邊已經定居或是工作或在那邊求學的人他的選擇就是我們必須如果你要強迫他撤離因為他跟伊朗的情形不一樣那邊國際上也是就是維持度假打工而且都要有受理這個不是說一公佈就一堆人去啊所以不能夠把這個程序壓縮好像我們鼓勵大家去戰地"},{"start":11142.323,"end":11149.087,"text":"冒著風險,這個不好啦,因為這個會造成不慰這個之前簽嘛,有生肖日嘛我們就按照這個,因為你突然間還沒有進入到更高的警示等級你自己單方面去做一些行動,這在外交上是很不合宜的啦現在問題出在哪裡啦,就是2023年12月27號要簽這個備忘錄的時候"},{"start":11168.658,"end":11183.66,"text":"那時候中東的情勢應該已經是緊張了吧那時候以色列跟以哈應該就已經開打了吧我肯定 我知道我們的外交人員是辛苦我們外交處境也是困難的要多一些交流 這個我們都肯定可是在交流跟國人生命安全之間"},{"start":11184.858,"end":11189.782,"text":"他是2023年10月10月7號發生戰爭嘛那我意思是說其實這種常年在威脅之下就像我們不要讓國際人認為說台灣很危險都不能來一樣我說這個怎麼樣去符合實際啊但是我意思是說他們的這些避難或安全的措施做得非常好全社會防禦任性 全民皆兵"},{"start":11209.82,"end":11228.491,"text":"我們不要是用外人 因為我們任何一個動作都會讓他覺得說 那以後我們台灣咧只要有一個什麼樣的中共的動作 那全世界人都不要來嘛這個都是我們有長遠的思考啊 而且是對等的第一 我們台灣比以色列安全很多啦第二個 當然我知道我們外國人也很辛苦當然台灣第一 東京人交流比較推的部長我今天要跟你討論的是 當初要簽這個備忘錄的時候以哈戰爭 那時候中東已經緊張了所以要簽這個要更謹慎 我不是反對簽啦"},{"start":11238.476,"end":11257.726,"text":"就是安全一定要注意啦這第一點 第一點 我跟你說你的這個度假打工的這個還在你們這個網站上面耶你至少蓋一個暫緩吧或者做一些說明吧因為它暫緩啊我剛才在看 我上去看它還是你的推特上面還有 有貼暫緩的"},{"start":11259.759,"end":11286.941,"text":"對 就是停止啦你上面蓋一個暫緩嘛要嘛就先撤下來是個辦法啦好不好沒有沒有沒有其實雙方面簽的東西在那裡就是在那裡那因為行政程序在辦理的時候我們已經...所以暫緩 東京市要繼續推動可以當然可是最重要的就是國人安全還是第一啦好對不對 國人安全第一個第二個 既然已經是現在暫緩要把它講清楚好不好是 石原董同仁參考一下委員剛剛的提醒謝謝我們張啟凱委員的諮詢接下來有林育君委員上台諮詢"},{"start":11302.895,"end":11305.682,"text":"謝謝主席有請外交部林部長"},{"start":11309.192,"end":11317.258,"text":"部長早今天每個委員質詢都是有關於以色列和伊朗兩國的軍事衝突的升級還有讓火藥庫支撐的中東的局勢都是更加的緊張尤其是對於我們國的以色列和伊朗之間其實我們比較關心的是它的安全狀況上週五6月13號以色列和伊朗兩國發生衝突的時候導致旅遊的安全風險都提高了"},{"start":11336.913,"end":11342.698,"text":"當天外交部當然就馬上調升了這兩國的旅遊警示的等級嘛所以兩國現在都已經是關閉了空域這樣想讓離境的外國人士當然也包括我們的台灣的國人無法順利搭乘飛機離開那我想要請教部長一下就是剛剛部長也有答覆其他的委員說兩國的衝突發生到今天所以我們在以色列和伊朗國人都已經持續的在清查嘛然後"},{"start":11364.994,"end":11371.639,"text":"當然剛才有說清查到目前的話伊朗是只有9個人但是3個人已經離境了但是還留在以色列的有294個人但是高達了274個國人滯留在以色列納亞才離開了20個人這樣像這樣的話我想了解一下就是說這些人是他們不願意離開還是離開不了還有我們"},{"start":11388.992,"end":11393.455,"text":"滯留在以色列的外交人員目前有多少人還有萬一兩國真的發生了戰爭那請問台灣目前有沒有撤僑計畫的一些具體的方案呢好 謝謝委員如同您上面顯示的在以色列有第四級紅色地區跟第三級橙色的地區"},{"start":11408.524,"end":11433.645,"text":"那紅色就是要禁書離境然後橙色是避免前往那剛剛委員講說為什麼現在還有274名在這個以色列因為我講那個情形就有些人已經是定居在那裡甚至結婚生子有些人是長年在那邊工作那有一些人是留學有些人是商務他們其實都很瞭解以色列的情況我們會都有建黨也都有聯繫可是我們如果說從外面要求他馬上就撤離"},{"start":11436.447,"end":11461.327,"text":"這個是 說實在 他們的現況比我們了解他們都知道怎麼去避難那以色列很長的生活在這樣的威脅之下我們也尊重 我們也支持所以當然我們在講說我們要馬上怎麼樣在搶先的在戰爭發生之前就去宣布可能啦 在他認為是說好像我們把它視為這個不能夠居住的地方所以布載的意思是說他們沒有想要離開的意思就對了很多人都"},{"start":11461.767,"end":11484.704,"text":"要繼續留在那裡但是如果這個戰爭繼續衝突升高也可能會離開那我們都做好應變也都跟他們聯繫中幾乎每一個人我們都有通訊我們在駐以色列的大使館我們的代表處真的做到大家都很稱讚就是每一個人都當作自己在家人一樣在看待所以當我們在處理這種外交關係上為什麼會有一些反應啊"},{"start":11485.964,"end":11505.62,"text":"我們在指導的時候 必須要了解在現地第一場比如剛剛有提到說 我們的伊朗現在是這個冒險中心在那邊他在保護我們的國人 九個已經撤了三個 另外三個已經要撤然後他也準備要撤 可是他可能要留到最後面但是如果危險 我們也是會跟經濟部協調 他也要趕快走"},{"start":11508.863,"end":11537.524,"text":"那這個也都有方案可是那個時機的掌握我們必須尊重第一線因為它才有那個情報所以我們很感謝各界的指導可是在很多的判斷上必須要有正確的情報好 那我也希望外交部就是說也可以有辦法確認說他們都是在那邊非常的平安還有他們如果是怎麼樣能跟台灣有順暢的溝通管道呢還是目前外交部有沒有透過某些管道然後你們可以了解兩國現在目前的情況"},{"start":11538.385,"end":11557.704,"text":"哪兩國 你說台灣跟以色列還是跟伊朗都是因為以色列我們很密切而且我們的情報交換跟各駐以色列大使之間橫向的非常平凡因為這個是面對到每一個國家要不要撤僑或者是要不要在那邊怎麼去應變那至於伊朗因為我們沒有撤代表處只有冒險"},{"start":11560.347,"end":11580.1,"text":"那我們是用這個杜拜去轄管所以這個時候我們當然需要趕快撤離這九個人已經撤了三個三個正在撤離中還有三個我們也建議啦其實安全第一雖然當事人可能有這個責任感想要去幫助所有人都撤離在撤但我覺得"},{"start":11581.321,"end":11601.473,"text":"這個我們已經都通知了也都安排了撤離的路徑那請大家趕快撤離好我現在還是說請外交部就是說還是要密切的關注啦這個兩國最新的局勢還有提供國人必要的協助因為不要跟以前一樣其實以前常常有聽到說我國政府無法保護旅外的台灣人的時候"},{"start":11602.774,"end":11606.399,"text":"國人常常都會求助一些中共我希望不要有這種事情再發生接下來我想請教部長一下有關共諜的問題就是部長你知道吳釗燮擔任外交部長的任內我們失去了幾個邦交國嗎"},{"start":11617.415,"end":11621.237,"text":"總八個那請教部長一下你擔任部長後有沒有重新清查還是有沒有重新了解過去這些和人節長時間擔任前部長的機要秘書的期間究竟主要的工作內容所涉及的外交重要的文件有哪些還有是否已經有影響到我們的外交關係還是國家安全的還有外交部隊這一次部內發生了共諜洩密的事情後來有沒有任何積極的防範"},{"start":11645.13,"end":11673.028,"text":"還有未來重要的邦加國我們的機密要如何管理因為發生一個危機我們要做除了去做應變以外就要做損害控管而且要做復原因為我本身也算是比較國安系統的背景所以這件事情也還沒有結束所以我們必須要啟動行政調查也是在檢調他們去查了一些資料我們都配合可是我們自己行政體系尤其外交很多的機敏性這個事情的衝擊"},{"start":11674.79,"end":11685.021,"text":"可能是還有在發展中所以我有要求我們外交部成立一個包括除了我們政風處之外有一個小組現在就是在做"},{"start":11687.004,"end":11695.231,"text":"徹底的釐清之後去做損害控管跟這個危機的復原您剛剛提到就是說因為這涉及到跟我們來往的很多的還有外交的洩密其實是非常重大的部長你也知道對不對現在回歸來講說這件事情的發生我想請問一下部長就是前部長吳釗燮他當時做一個首長的時候他現在又是高居國安會的秘書長這個位置其實他負責的是國家安全的大事"},{"start":11716.187,"end":11719.068,"text":"但是我們來訪觀這件事情他當初身為購諜的老闆是不是應該要有肩膀承擔這個責任但是部長你也知道到現在無債縣秘書長到現在還沒有接受任何的調查甚至都不願意出席立法院邀請列席的會議接受監督你覺得這樣合理嗎還有"},{"start":11736.115,"end":11742.881,"text":"是不是部長你是不是可以好好的發揮一下你的影響力啊勵勸一下吳釗燮要有擔當要擔起這個責任向外界說明呢如果他真的一直覺得他覺得很委屈的話那是不是他應該出來面對對外公開的說明而不是讓大家一直誤會他誤會執政黨甚至最主要是又誤會了整個外交部那部長你認為呢"},{"start":11762.077,"end":11788.485,"text":"我想立法院副監督職者你們的意見我想當事人也都會聽到檢調現在也在 已經起訴了幾位 這四位後續司法單位也會針對這個事情我想我們就配合司法來辦理可是在行政的層次我做一個外交部長我必須做好損害的控管"},{"start":11789.385,"end":11805.751,"text":"避免這個傷害持續可能會影響後續我們的外交工作所以當事人他怎麼去面對這個國會的監督或社會各界對於政治責任的期待那這個我不是當事人我無法替他回答"},{"start":11806.491,"end":11814.901,"text":"但是我想您的意見包括立法院希望就是說有機會能夠說明我想就是尊重立法院的職權好 謝謝"},{"start":11821.99,"end":11840.857,"text":"謝謝林益勤委員的質詢接下來有蘇清淺委員蘇清淺委員蘇清淺委員不在那已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由陳冠廷委員提書面質詢請"},{"start":11843.038,"end":11854.87,"text":"列入這個記錄並刊登公報為素面及口頭執行為為其答覆部分或要求補充者補充資料者請依素面以兩週內答覆現在"},{"start":11860.41,"end":11881.622,"text":"接下來我們來進行討論四項第一項外交部主管預算對國際之關懷救助及重建中業務費凍結300萬元提出書面報告並經同意後使得凍結外交部以書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意那同意凍結提報院會維持繼續凍結"},{"start":11892.357,"end":11919.559,"text":"提報宴會啊 對那第二個是討論討論事項第二項的第三項處理外交部主管預算凍結案提出書面報告並經同意後使得動之共兩案外交部以書面報告送交本會請各委員是否有同意解凍好 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歡迎臺灣藥醫藥品法規協會理事長康兆周"},{"start":2020.655,"end":2043.765,"text":"好他是我們的以前食藥署署長台北醫學大學藥學院院長張偉橋歡迎歡迎來待會來再補充再來我們今天行政官員衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀"},{"start":2047.956,"end":2071.158,"text":"醫事司司長劉業平 歡迎食品藥物管理署署長江志剛 謝謝疾病管制署副署長羅一鈞這個台灣女婿中央健康保險署副署長陳亮宇"},{"start":2072.748,"end":2099.802,"text":"歡迎經濟部產業發展署副組長陳全正好 歡迎國家發展委員會社會發展處專門委員蘇愛娟好 歡迎財政部官務署副組長劉麗霞好 歡迎內政部消防署主任秘書張玉忠好 歡迎"},{"start":2102.355,"end":2124.157,"text":"救災救護指揮中心主任周文智好 歡迎 歡迎救災救護署副組長陳世勳好 歡迎環部局局衛情保健處處長曾元生好 歡迎藥政管理處處長曹柏映"},{"start":2130.987,"end":2145.33,"text":"智慧財產局副組長李東秀本次會議"},{"start":2160.512,"end":2170.091,"text":"部會及學者專家所列之相關署名資料都會列入紀錄刊登公報那現在請我們次長報告5分鐘"},{"start":2177.629,"end":2205.053,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員女士先生在場的各位學者專家各位夥伴大家早安今天逢大院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會舉行台灣任性醫藥整備計畫公聽會本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸自求台灣醫療台灣任性醫療整備計畫提出報告敬請各位委員不吝指教在我們現在面臨的背景"},{"start":2205.353,"end":2220.095,"text":"把台灣包含面臨颱風地震複合式災難傳染病好重大的一些工商意外這些挑戰那另外全球的產業供應鏈也面臨到全球的一些安全環境的挑戰與不穩定的狀態"},{"start":2221.056,"end":2239.982,"text":"所以對於我國民眾健康跟安全都構成了很重大的挑戰那發展因應複合式極端災難的醫療體系以及藥品供應的韌性是勢在必行那所以本部針對台灣醫療及藥品供應的韌性準備情形簡單說明如下在"},{"start":2241.322,"end":2259.497,"text":"醫療韌性的部分為了配合國家政策同時預先準備面對大型災難或特殊事件時的應變能力以及因應平時大量傷患的醫療需求本部整合國防部軍醫局跟內政部消防署的計畫奉行政院核定自113年起推動韌性國家醫療準備計畫四年期計畫"},{"start":2264.581,"end":2286.602,"text":"這個計畫是一個龐大、整合型、跨領域、跨地域、跨機構組織的全面規劃包含多項的任務跟工作計畫113年度的成果包含急救站的設置、外科備援手術室團隊運作模式以及人力組成、器械、藥品衛材的準備以及部署機制等指引"},{"start":2287.202,"end":2305.548,"text":"另外也製作多項的教材手冊跟專業團體之間一起合作那錄製教學影片跟VR模組辦理多項的專業人員訓練跟民眾的訓練在藥品供應任性的部分在113年12月食藥署預告修正藥事法 藥害救濟法藥品"},{"start":2307.749,"end":2321.676,"text":"藥物樣品贈品管理辦法以及特定藥品專案核准製造及輸入辦法來完善我們的管理法規另外也建立藥品短缺通報系統跟主動監測機制以確保藥品穩定的供應"},{"start":2322.916,"end":2348.941,"text":"建立短缺通報處理流程確保臨床用藥需求可以滿足另外建立藥品供應資訊的公開資料這個open the data來有效的傳遞藥品短缺跟替代藥品的資訊也建置藥品供應監測系統與整合國內大型中盤藥商的藥品庫存資料來供醫事人員查詢各合作藥商的藥品庫存情形確保我們的藥品供應穩定對藥商醫療機構"},{"start":2351.901,"end":2377.325,"text":"药局跟民众提供教育训练跟宣导加强各界对于药品的应对跟知能尤其是药品使用的弹性我们有一些药品可能会有互相替换的需求那另外持续透过多元的方式推广国产的学名药以提升医疗机构及民众对于国产药品的信任另外也同时强化跟鼓励国产的药品那来"},{"start":2379.446,"end":2395.297,"text":"確保我們的國內的藥品供應的韌性那為了避免國內的藥廠因為單一的原料藥來源供應異常而影響藥品的生產我們也持續鼓勵藥廠增加原料藥來源及儲備也鼓勵我們這個醫療機構使用國內的藥廠或使用我們國內的這個原料藥"},{"start":2399.519,"end":2424.961,"text":"本部针对医疗任性的部分期望借由任性国家医疗准备计划提升医疗体系面对大型灾难或特殊事件发生时的应变跟准备另外针对药品任性的部分也持续跟相关的部会、产业界、学术界还有民间团体携手合作研议完善相关药品法规架构跟管理的措施确保药品供应能够稳定"},{"start":2425.781,"end":2446.619,"text":"本部呈大院各委員的指導跟監督在此敬致謝誠並且期望各位委員繼續給予支持謝謝主席 謝謝大家好謝謝市長好我們再補介紹台灣私立醫療院所學位秘書長吳明彥好"},{"start":2450.694,"end":2469.054,"text":"台灣臨床藥學會理事長張玉麗好 歡迎那這個是我們委員會辦的正式公聽會所以這個是錄音錄影永遠純正所以你五年後十年後也可以回來看看"},{"start":2472.106,"end":2481.034,"text":"每位委員花言前為人員花言前先告下列的事項學者專家跟本院委員每人花言時間6分鐘"},{"start":2483.652,"end":2510.548,"text":"為簡報方便發言請至主席台右邊的發言台沿著上由寫者專家先行一遷到順序發言委員如果要發言我們到這邊登記全部人員發言完畢後請行政機關做整體回應那我們大概十點半左右休息一下第一位我們先請中華民國學民藥協會理事長陳一芬表達意見謝謝"},{"start":2520.036,"end":2537.275,"text":"主席還有各位長官還有醫藥的先進們大家早安那麼首先感謝主席這次能夠開這樣的公聽會讓我們有機會可以稍微表達一下那我們中華民國學妙協會有準備了一些資料可以跟大家報告一下"},{"start":2539.589,"end":2553.72,"text":"那麼在這個台灣藥品許可證的部分因為我們有這個食藥署的專家在我就不多說了但是呢我們可以從製劑跟原料藥的這個比例來看大概有兩萬出頭章的藥證裡面台廠占了83%那麼原廠占了10%還有進口學名藥4%"},{"start":2559.665,"end":2582.021,"text":"那相較於原料藥呢 原料藥有85%是進口的 只有15%是我們國產的那這裡看出來一件什麼樣的事情呢就是台廠的藥品許可證 數量非常的多 重複性很高所得到的資源比較少 非常的少那原料藥呢 又太少 多仰賴進口我想這個跟剛剛次長談的部分 有某些是一樣的狀況"},{"start":2583.962,"end":2611.391,"text":"那麼這是第一個要跟大家報告第二個就是我們來看一看原廠藥對於玄密藥用量的比那這些都是有部分是從健保署的這個依例裡面出來的那你可以看到藥品的用量上面quantity的部分原廠佔了三個三成左右玄密藥佔超過七成但是如果以金額來看的話原廠佔了七成玄密藥佔了兩 將近三成的左右那麼這三成裡面還有一半是進口玄密藥"},{"start":2612.131,"end":2636.885,"text":"所以可以看得到在我們臺灣製造的玄冕藥的佔比其實相當的低只佔了藥費大概12%到13%所以看健保署的2020年的玄冕藥認識及國產製藥發展現況調查的部分可以看得到依令來看七成以上是玄冕藥這說明了一件什麼事情就是玄冕藥的數量對於我們國人的用藥健康"},{"start":2637.825,"end":2658.863,"text":"跟保障是很重要 扮演一個很重要的角色但是呢這個國防民生工業般重要的製藥產業卻得到極少的資源那大家可以從這個派裡面可以看得到那麼如果我們以國產玄密藥除了剛剛的現況以外我們要看看我們的在台製造的玄密藥碰到的六大挑戰"},{"start":2659.761,"end":2682.341,"text":"我們也做了一些survey那第一個就是研發與生產誘因的不足那我想這個是一個大環境的問題在政府單位對於這個研發的部分能夠投注多少心力當然會直接關係到我們製藥產業的一個發展那麼所以可以看到第一個是研發與生產誘因的不足第二個是供應鏈的風險大家都在談為什麼會缺藥因為供應鏈出了問題"},{"start":2686.224,"end":2703.942,"text":"那供應鏈出在什麼樣的問題上面每一個藥品可能都不太一樣第三個是醫病的信任度低所謂的醫病信任度低是指我們處方者對於學名藥的品質可能有一定的迷思那麼第四個是健保總額不足的部分那這個是一直以來的問題"},{"start":2705.003,"end":2719.67,"text":"就不贅述那法規障礙的部分當然因為我們法規要跟PIX GMP又要跟上ICH所以合法合規的部分我們的確是在這個藥品的維持上面跟查登上面的確是有一些障礙"},{"start":2720.47,"end":2737.271,"text":"那最後一個當然是備材跟留材我們又要擴建我們又要跟上國際我們又要經營CDMO那麼我們都需要大量的人才但是大量的人才都流失在國外所以這個部分也是我們一個很大的挑戰那接著來看一下我們剛剛六大挑戰的部分最高的就是研發與生產"},{"start":2738.272,"end":2754.746,"text":"又因不足的地方那就是錢不夠的意思所以我們也是希望能夠盡量爭取一些政府可以support我們的一些經費那健保分配不均就是一樣也是經費不足第三個就是醫病信任度低這是前三名的挑戰"},{"start":2756.087,"end":2774.026,"text":"好 那麼接下來就是要跟大家報告就是我們對於這樣韌性計畫的三大訴求這個是我們具體的希望能夠得到這個鼓勵跟能夠support我們在台製造選民藥的部分第一個就是自從賴總統上任以來就提到"},{"start":2774.586,"end":2802.529,"text":"就提出來了健康台灣推動委員會那推動委員會的小組成員裡面其實藥界代表只有一名其他都是大部分都是醫界的代表所以我們也呼籲總統府這邊有關於健康台灣推動委員會的部分是不是可以另外成立一個藥品供應韌性小組我們都知道其實蘇爾園本身是醫師專業然後我們次長也是但是醫師再有專業再厲害沒有藥也是萬萬不能"},{"start":2803.75,"end":2823.838,"text":"所以藥品的韌性就更新重要那麼在這個部分我們希望從原料藥到成品的短鏈供應所謂的短鏈供應就是短距離的供應鏈我們希望可以更多的在地化生產在地化的供應第二個就是訂定韌性供應的目標提高國內主要的原料藥生產這個品項"},{"start":2824.998,"end":2840.347,"text":"也跟江署長討論過有關原料藥的部分我們怎麼樣能夠讓國內生產供應國內的製藥第三個就是提高過專利三桶這裡很快的跟大家報告一下有一個B肝的藥今年4月1號三桶它卻還仍然佔了90%的自佔率"},{"start":2843.048,"end":2866.521,"text":"來到了16億台幣的一個金額這是相當高的有一個止痛藥它佔了70%左右它即將要離開台灣這是原廠藥 還沒有三桶另外一個抗凝血劑是三桶的藥品它仍然佔了將近八成的一個市佔率如果我們讓過專利期的藥品仍然佔了這麼高的比例的話那我們的藥費的負擔當然會很高這個是數據的部分"},{"start":2871.444,"end":2890.935,"text":"再來就是預算的部分 4100億的任性特別預算的部分我們希望能夠挹注健保基金不得低於12% 將近來到500億的部分這可以增進我們藥品供應鏈 尤其是國產的加速健保署規劃中的化療藥的鼓勵第三個當然經濟部有提到的生機醫藥的條例"},{"start":2892.756,"end":2909.645,"text":"希望能夠增加新的一張叫國產製藥專章這個部分希望能夠達成那食藥署跟健保署能夠合作落實臨床藥品療效的不等通報的機制能夠讓醫師在公開場合提到臺灣品質的時候能夠有依據 以上謝謝謝謝 謝謝陳理事長講得非常好"},{"start":2919.267,"end":2929.404,"text":"五百億不夠啦再來我們請葉雲光前署長,是藥事青年會的顧問"},{"start":2932.071,"end":2947.317,"text":"好 非常謝謝主席因為時間關係我就不依這個尊稱各位在座的政府官員因為以前我也是在那一邊那我今天是不是有個PPT可以放一下那很感謝蘇委員能夠召開這一次的這個會議我們全聯會長期來是關注這個議題那個PPT可不可以放一下長期來是關注這個議題啦啊 趙司委員"},{"start":2959.963,"end":2973.968,"text":"所以這個時間不能算,因為這是工作人員操作的時間所以要多一分鐘,因為他現在已經扣掉了所以今天很高興來,我們是在變局中尋找韌性與突破,下一張"},{"start":2975.513,"end":2993.529,"text":"我們在疫情中我們學到重要的一課我們因為國家的口罩對所以在這個危難的時候這個國家發揮重要的這個整合以後創造了這個台灣的安全包括經濟部、國防部、衛務部以及內政部那也創造了這個台灣的奇跡"},{"start":2995.953,"end":3017.076,"text":"那其實台灣任性的醫療呢 藥物的建議很多我想在座的各位都是專家 我這邊提出幾個第一個就是要政策引導 要由高層來統籌因為現在各個部會都有但是我個人一直認為 我們全聯會一直認為缺藥是這個國安的問題尤其我們隔壁旁邊就有一個大老虎 老是要咬我們"},{"start":3017.937,"end":3041.089,"text":"這時候我們的韌性夠不夠這是我們總統高瞻研究提出來但是我們自己仔細盤一下都有在做但是有沒有一個統籌整合的所以是不是國化會這邊是不是能夠政策引導有高層來統籌訂出一個比較周圍的特別法或者怎麼樣來把這個問題來徹底的解決第二個我們要盤點公西使用國產這剛剛等一下我想很多都會講這個"},{"start":3042.19,"end":3064.056,"text":"那這個江處長他也很認真他們也盤了我私下也知道他很用心但是我們也知道我們韌性是不夠的韌性不夠的原因第一個我們原料要這個佔的比很低那國外進口的原料大部分是來自於中國大陸當我們跟他不好的時候他為我們的時候他會給我們原料嗎那沒有原料以後我們要做什麼事情呢所以這是很嚴峻的問題"},{"start":3065.396,"end":3080.771,"text":"再來當然鼓勵國產有很多政策啦但是我這邊要講句實話都流以口說沒有落地問的廠商都沒有收到所以這個是有一點觀音作為甘露灑下去還沒到地就真花光了剛剛林市長講得很好但是我個人覺得啊"},{"start":3082.532,"end":3088.995,"text":"這個都是政策宣導我們這邊也在講 都沒有提到所以這個很重要再來的話經濟部其實經濟部促進國家經濟產業發展很重要的我以前也講過就是說這裡面是不是可能經濟部針對國產藥品給一個特別編制編列的一個專款專用來鼓勵國產的藥"},{"start":3101.101,"end":3124.51,"text":"用本土的一系列的那尤其我們不需要廣撒應該針對國家缺藥像那個醫事師他們針對小兒的用藥就有一個特別的採購的機制來滿足小兒缺藥的問題像這一種是不是很好的我們是否應該要擴大讓國家在真正需要的時候有東西可以用我想這個是需要有一個比較整體宏觀尤其經濟部可以促進整個經濟的發展因為國內廠的發展不只是"},{"start":3128.171,"end":3136.178,"text":"安定韌性的問題他還可以拓展外銷幫國家或許可以打造第二個小護國神山啊"},{"start":3137.674,"end":3161.096,"text":"第三當然財政部對租稅的獎勵長期的支援是很重要因為我們台灣都是中小企業的藥廠你不把它給支持的話往往就是撐不下去了所以這部分如果租稅的負免優待或者說有一些特殊情況的免稅我覺得這個假如是配合國家政策的應該在統籌這邊就要給他鼓勵而不是嘴巴講要實質上他配合國家政策要給他抵稅減稅或者是優免"},{"start":3163.138,"end":3186.266,"text":"再來就是全民參與動員演習內政部我知道動員署各方面但是我們實際沒操演過以前我在軍醫局當藥政署處長我們就要去動員藥廠所有有沒有生產線有沒有東西其實上可能都是缺乏的那真正有事的時候兵荒馬亂所以適時的每半年或一年適當的操演從操演之中去發現問題來徹底的解決問題我覺得這個是很重要的再來當然就是國防部這邊必要的藥品戰備的囤儲我跟那個"},{"start":3192.688,"end":3210.351,"text":"我有去拜會過那個軍醫局局長那我知道他們也很積極他有跟我回應說他們對於國軍有囤儲9萬然後各個地方醫院都有拉高到25%但是是我全面他也有反映一個問題就是我們的這個食藥署跟健保署跟那個"},{"start":3211.332,"end":3232.755,"text":"是不同意的 他比較遵循哪一套那每一套都存的話 那實在是問題所以這個就需要整合嘛 到底是健保署跟食藥署你們這個必要清單 到底是哪一套為本要不然就搞得大家是很辛苦的所以很高興有這個機會 就包括這個長期觀察以來以及各界訪視的 提供給各位參考"},{"start":3234.249,"end":3246.159,"text":"那接近國際的經驗其實印度呢針對這個問題他還是有提出特別的例如說他為了這個問題的話他有福祉國內生產11種關鍵的原料藥目前已經有27座立地原料的藥廠"},{"start":3248.376,"end":3273.647,"text":"日本更是怕怕中國斷了他的藥所以他就針對抗生素提供補助然後向原料廠廠商提供補貼日本政府購買產品的方向是向原料廠支付一定定額的金額讓他安心的做而不是採購這樣子也就是說我們國家需要我們請他做做了我們就是買買了供他是一條邊的所以在真正需要的時候就可以我相信那個那個那個"},{"start":3275.888,"end":3281.755,"text":"醫師師長他們採的這個小兒專用藥是這樣的問題幾年前這個小兒缺藥問題很嚴重後來就是石崇良還有這個我們這個師長他們持續下來現在就解決這個問題小兒缺藥缺這個醫療器材的問題就徹底解決這都是很成功的經驗"},{"start":3295.404,"end":3318.614,"text":"那現在呢其實現況的診斷跟核心症因解我這邊不多講因為等一下大家講的都差不多啦第一個就是關鍵藥呢我們抗感染藥75%從國外進口那我們CDC能幹嘛沒有藥能做什麼而且原料75%是來自於中國大陸這裡特殊製劑呢更是依賴100%依賴國外第二個我們台灣本土的供應鏈是脆弱的他只要圍我們7到14天我們就沒藥了對不對再來是價格結構是失衡的"},{"start":3323.339,"end":3351.923,"text":"那缺藥的原因我們也要提出一些建議第一個全球供應鏈的問題藥品仰賴進口本地生產不足政策法規限制國際政治情勢影響那我們提出來就是預防性參與性跟智能性建議的話就是要籌設國家級的藥品安全的戰情中心然後法規調適的部分跟完善的行政機制要及早的來修訂完成再來就提升國內製藥廠的能力儲備足夠的戰略的藥品然後強化他國合作"},{"start":3353.407,"end":3373.464,"text":"那第一個建議就是建立AI我們總統說要AI嘛所以AI智能疫警我們是不是有多維度的監測平台是不是有區塊鏈溯源的機制再來強化台灣的供應鏈的韌性工程我想等一下大家都會再講再來我們可以有一些法規我們是不是可以先用法規沙盒實驗來解決這個問題再來就是跨域整合因為真正事情發生的時候"},{"start":3380.134,"end":3397.034,"text":"美國也許還會給我們開一條這個航運通道那我們是不是跟日本啊菲律賓或哪裡有簽訂他可以去補我們一些原料這是很重要再來是勇氣發展因為我們現在是自由民主國家嘛成立藥品認證公民會議廣納各方面來形成共識這是"},{"start":3398.305,"end":3410.249,"text":"提議那藥品供應鏈的韌性的建構的話這邊有一個預防性的管理跟危機的應變兩個階段在平時的預防性的話包括戰略儲備的分級的制度我們應該分為戰備級優先級跟常規級還有一個冷鏈還有一個替代藥品"},{"start":3415.931,"end":3443.683,"text":"再來在危機的時候是不是有一個機制在48小時黃金的時候在發生事情的4小時要完全影響評估管制進口藥不能再囤在藥廠或者在港口或者在各自的地方應該國家統籌就徵收了嘛你才能分配嘛要不然大家會搶嘛 對不對再來12小時內開完專家會議發布人事的指引因為到時候藥如果掉波是中央統籌那怎麼置換的藥我們必須要有一套讓人家知道嘛要不然醫生"},{"start":3444.921,"end":3464.256,"text":"這個醫院突然你不給我藥這個沒藥就像這一次的鹽水的事件那我不曉得這個是怎麼樣啊需要一個指引啊醫生才能遵循啊然後同時呢就要完成首批緊急狀況的採購那特殊情況的話在封鎖的時候我們就要啟用預儲原料所以我們要預儲原料哪些是關鍵的品價原料囤多少啊"},{"start":3464.796,"end":3478.981,"text":"因為原料可以囤十年所以有的時候我們就可以給藥廠做假如我們連原料都沒有想要做也沒得做在疫情爆發就要啟動優先分配原算法再來就是要防止這個時候偽藥或者特殊事件的進來以上 謝謝"},{"start":3485.378,"end":3511.926,"text":"你以為我們結婚20歲嗎?我只是感謝林次長還有我們這個江署長因為江署長也針對這個問題也討論過幾次啦那我知道他也很用心盤我也知道我們的韌性真的是不夠啦這個是秘密我們不能講啦國防部也很用心啦 我剛才問他們我這邊再提一個啦 我有跟食藥署講可是食藥署的說叫我不要講"},{"start":3513.413,"end":3529.964,"text":"其實我們真正打仗的時候馬飛是很重要的我們現在馬飛是安捧所以你大時候要使用需要大量的醫生跟護理同仁在國外他們是有那個像我們這個乙島針 筆針一樣的那一個一個就直接打那在戰傷的時候"},{"start":3531.745,"end":3551.073,"text":"軍人或者百姓已經很痛苦了這時候給他配備這種是很重要但是我們國內沒有這種劑型我們國內的馬會製造又只有在食藥署那這個問題我覺得是相對嚴重啦所以是否是可以成立一個專案設計這個來就像以前我又在當那個藥證處處長的時候那時候神經解毒針啊也是買了囤著嘛"},{"start":3554.594,"end":3571.307,"text":"真正要用的時候就撥下去嘛你現在連有都沒有你到時候大量傷患你怎麼辦讓軍人在那邊痛所以是否是有這種單一使用拋棄式的筆針我們應該囤儲在緊急的時候可以撥下去可以減少醫療跟護理同仁的辛苦以上 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":3575.235,"end":3585.001,"text":"業人工在當官員跟現在不一樣現在都施展開了講得很好 謝謝 謝謝來 接著我們請林業勤委員發言專業學者還有我們的"},{"start":3601.794,"end":3617.686,"text":"在戰略上,藥品跟糧食都同屬我們的戰略物質,台灣當然不可以缺糧也不可以缺藥,這是每一屆大家都知道的事情,可是台灣到底真的有能力確保我們藥品能夠具備持續供應的能力嗎?"},{"start":3618.647,"end":3641.12,"text":"我想剛剛陳理善也提過整個我們的藥品的許可證裡邊許可證的數量比大概就是進口跟國產國產跟進口的話83比17那長期以來我們自己的健保的藥費當中大概學民藥占醫令藥的那個數量大概69%可是卻"},{"start":3643.061,"end":3645.724,"text":"得到僅獲得82%的支付金額其中大13.6%為進口學名藥而且是由122家的藥廠來競爭僅"},{"start":3657.418,"end":3682.224,"text":"以僅14.4%的市場反觀進口原藥廠佔31%卻取得86%的健保支出導致我們長期藥品貿易逆差當然我們今天要談的事實上是整個韌性藥品的韌性就是要保持六個月不缺藥的能力可是如果要穩定藥品供應韌性的話關鍵在於每一季我們的國產學名藥佔率"},{"start":3685.326,"end":3688.484,"text":"能夠是達到50%以上新上市的學民要"},{"start":3690.818,"end":3718.505,"text":"價格呢事實上大概事實上是原廠藥的大概八成的藥價之後就會逐漸下降可是考量到國家的資源來看的話那勢必就要積極來推動我們國產的玄冥藥來取代進口的原廠藥可是玄冥藥如果要到50%要市佔率佔到50%的話並不太容易那許多藥品即使專利過期五年的話能佔有極高的市佔率"},{"start":3719.367,"end":3723.921,"text":"顯示我們現行政策在推動學民藥替代上並不是很成功"},{"start":3726.741,"end":3748.021,"text":"所以我認為策略力大概應該是要獎勵醫師來開立我們的生物相似藥跟學名藥為什麼這麼講實物上市上民眾在使用學名藥關鍵是在醫師是否開立因為多數民眾大概都信任醫生開什麼就吃什麼那醫院的藥局配藥時也不會說出這個藥品是進口還是國產所以我認為就是說"},{"start":3751.003,"end":3776.776,"text":"推動我們的國產學名藥首要工作應該是鼓勵醫生開立所以在我跟朱立委就各位立委關心像今年4月26日公布的健保給付項目之支付標準及價格調整作業辦法裡面明文鼓勵使用生物相似藥跟學名藥那生物相似藥在這政策在去年7月1號就試辦了當時我們的戰率呢在7.3"},{"start":3780.829,"end":3803.421,"text":"7.38%那遠低於國外的50%可是政府加碼以加碼給付醫師150點來鼓勵開立特定藥品果然事實上是成長到13%而且設定三明利達30%所以我期待這項政策不是只有生物相似藥那也能夠擴及到學民藥那策略二我們認為事實上應該要去考量到整個專利"},{"start":3805.403,"end":3817.73,"text":"連結的制度那本月初那個學民要協會要求政府應盡速檢討我們的專利連結制度當年為了加入我們跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協會"},{"start":3819.971,"end":3847.51,"text":"協定經濟部主導我們的設立此制度主要在平衡原廠跟我們的學民藥的權益可是在2019年8月實施將近6年我們的專利訴訟勝率從8.7%升到22.2%反而不利學民藥的開發所以政府除了一個政策說保障首度挑戰打贏的挑戰成功者大概有12個月市場市佔率"},{"start":3848.257,"end":3866.158,"text":"以外就缺乏有效的对应所以我认为政府应该按照我们的学民教学会讲的就是是不是应该要来做一个正面去讨论我们的制度的改革那策略三呢事实上期待的是能不能提出"},{"start":3867.64,"end":3893.515,"text":"學民藥的支持政策來帶動產業向研發的模式來升級因為根據學民藥協會跟製藥工會6月中旬的調查那超過半數的國產製藥廠都期待政府能夠支持研發跟生產升級除了合理的健保支付以外國產藥廠更期盼政府是不是可以從CMO的純代工走向我們的CDMO的委託開發製藥"},{"start":3897.725,"end":3914.342,"text":"那CMO的模式呢當然優點是我們價格競爭力強可是缺點就是95%的開發單位都在國外那我們國內的技術量能有限的話這是必須面對的問題所以我認為政府應該去支持要提出對應的政策來引導我們的產業升級"},{"start":3918.526,"end":3924.312,"text":"我們國內的台廠都很認真可是我們的熬陶廚真的要硬一點因為根據統計的話2014年10月間我們的臺灣的製藥外銷產值從197億增值到608億成長了411億"},{"start":3934.501,"end":3963.384,"text":"可是内需的产量仅大概只有48亿那可是同期健保药的支出的费用却成长到890亿所以政府支持在哪里看不到所以我们觉得全球因应我们的紧张情势的时候都在提升我们的药品自给能力台湾面临更大威胁的话我觉得当然行动要快了最后大家就期待就是能够推动国产学民要达到50%的市占率"},{"start":3963.846,"end":3982.339,"text":"還有擴大獎勵醫師開立生物相似藥跟學名藥還有開啟是不是檢討專利的連結制度的進程還提出臺灣製藥產業支持的政策以上謝謝大家謝謝謝謝您的請問那繼續我們請許建欽臺灣急診醫學會新的理事長齊美燕"},{"start":3992.97,"end":4020.118,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會先進 大家好 急診醫學會報告很高興 急診醫學會很榮幸承接衛福部醫療整備計畫 那這個國家計畫相當重要 那急診醫學會主要有三個指計畫 簡單報告那其中一項是設備的韌性維護 主要是地下醫療替代空間的盤點 我們規劃之一那第二 還有醫療量能的整備 那其中包括大型災難或特殊事件發生的時候的應變觀點 還有備援機制"},{"start":4021.978,"end":4039.369,"text":"我們也規劃急救站的設立還有指引第三個子計畫在人員的賦能主要是在非外科醫師還有醫師人員的外傷照護還有民防醫護團隊的訓練還有在大型災難或特殊事件發生的時候的血液供應機制"},{"start":4040.39,"end":4062.724,"text":"那113年我們產出了一些指引還有機制還有訓練那時間113年初步是一個初步的一些指引那根據這指引113年的指引還有專家委員的建議那我們包括教育訓練的回饋那114年會更新再調整這些指引還有機制那雖然急診"},{"start":4063.684,"end":4071.889,"text":"人力有稍微緊張,不過我們集團醫學會還是盡全力把114年的醫療準備計畫來更加完善以上見到報告,謝謝"},{"start":4093.953,"end":4100.257,"text":"好 接下來我們請中華民國製藥發展協會常務理事王惠弘報告那很高興有這個機會來代表製藥業發聲"},{"start":4115.708,"end":4132.933,"text":"那我想剛剛很多重點其實在我的PowerPoint裡面剛剛前面幾位專家學者都已經講過了那我就摘要的再把我認為有需要進一步補充的再跟大家做一個報告那我想我們國內製藥業在2015年1月1號我們就加入PIX GMP的國際組織還有我們的藥品"},{"start":4138.154,"end":4161,"text":"的審查的一個方向還有一個規矩都是依照ICH的一個國際標準所以我們的管理制度目前是跟先進國家都趨於一致那我想我們的產品品質也都符合國際標準那我想就是在從疫情以後就是整個藥品供應鏈接受到了一個嚴重的挑戰那這當然有很多的原因那我們看先進國家如美國"},{"start":4162,"end":4184.431,"text":"他在發現多種抗生素的原料嚴重仰賴中國進口那我想我們這個偉大的川普總統他就推動了關稅的誘因那講是誘因實際上是有一點半強迫性質鼓勵藥品回流美國生產那我想各國也紛紛推動藥品在地化的生產強化供應的一個韌性"},{"start":4185.816,"end":4214.41,"text":"那這個剛剛有提到那其實我們這邊也非常感謝就是食藥署還有健保署在對首批國產的學名藥給予同原廠藥價首兩家的學名藥那另外針對使用國產原料藥跟成功挑戰P4的一個專利也增加了一個10%的一個藥品給付那我想整個在管理方面我們目前也都有"},{"start":4215.33,"end":4239.84,"text":"短缺的一個通報系統譬如說藥品供應處理的一個通報系統那其實我們是建議可進一步再強化因為未來的風險還是很高的那我們了解到的一個問題我們認為國產學名藥目前的一個供應鏈還是算是脆弱那我想剛剛也有提到主要還是原料的一個供應目前的原料供應"},{"start":4241.958,"end":4264.378,"text":"用國內的一個原料藥廠供應生產大概只有佔15%我們大概八成以上都要仰賴進口那中國大陸是最大的一個供應來源但是相對的它的風險也是最高單一最大的供應來源那這個比重有人說三成有人說五成甚至有人說到七成然後我想這個數字簡單講就是非常高"},{"start":4264.958,"end":4287.179,"text":"那另外第二點就有提到說我們的佔比我們的使用量雖然佔了70%但是確實獲得14%的一個健保指數那這個會造成什麼影響就是說我們的廠商在擴廠或增加投資的一個意願還有重要的一個備份產能的一個誘因幾乎就是相對沒有或者是降到最低"},{"start":4287.719,"end":4312.003,"text":"那我们也发现研究的一个显示单一厂商或少数厂商垄断的学民药市场更容易发生长期的供应短缺那我想这一点第三点也就跟大家报告目前我们在生产跟监管的一个机制我想整个食药署的管理就是说我们的药厂对未来六个月的进口跟原料库存我们都必须要同保"},{"start":4312.583,"end":4336.576,"text":"那用專案的核准替代藥品的製造跟輸入那我們國內目前其實我這邊了解到的有必要藥品有關鍵藥品有戰備藥品有這三個藥品那必要藥品以我的了解在2月最新公佈的如果我沒有記錯的話大概是有586項那關鍵藥品我想大概加起來大概有200項吧上下"},{"start":4337.617,"end":4356.164,"text":"那戰備藥品我的了解大概是20幾箱但是這些藥品有的重疊有的交集有的連集都有清單但是我們發覺到對於供貨的優先順序不是那麼明確對於長期戰備的一個制度我們的認為也是還沒有完全建立"},{"start":4357.725,"end":4377.382,"text":"那我們參考一下國際藥品供應韌性的一個做法那我們看一下歐美先進國家他們也都鼓勵在地生產的一個政策如擴大政府採購國產藥品還有補助一些研發那有一個就是蠻重要就是他們也是建立了國家戰略庫存還有減少對外部的依賴"},{"start":4378.183,"end":4386.487,"text":"那美國的學者他另外他有建議就是設定優先保護學民藥的一個目錄建立全國的藥品儲備庫這剛剛葉前署長也有提到那透過一個合約來長期保障穩定的一個供應"},{"start":4394.77,"end":4413.709,"text":"那另外在重要的品項清單的一個機制歐盟及美國對高度仰賴進口或沒有替代品的一個藥品特別關注提供了快速審查輸入管道將關鍵的學名藥優先納入強制備後還有本土生產計畫那當然另外就是針對國產的一個藥價政策"},{"start":4418.214,"end":4438.528,"text":"那他們也就是鼓勵醫院優先採用國產學名藥好那我們有四個建議在現有的藥品清單基礎上明確列出其實這大概有幾個點一個是臨床使用我想這個就是醫院端這個醫院端包括各級醫院包括急診包括各方面再來就是公共衛生的需求可能有一些疫情"},{"start":4438.948,"end":4467.541,"text":"或者有一些緊急的一個需求再來國防安全我想這就是國防部或者其他相關的單位我們建立參考這三個一個項目來列出相關的關鍵品項評估國內是否具備生產能力再來就是我們會建立就是編列預算設立戰略庫存採購國內廠商生產的關鍵學名要譬如說輸液譬如說抗生素等等那政府以特定的價格收購一定量的產品作為備存"},{"start":4468.641,"end":4489.142,"text":"那這個做法不僅可以穩定廠商的收益也確保一定量的藥品可隨時調度那當然我們也建議說什麼事情都要急嘛那目前一直在提到增加韌性4100億我想大家也都有在注意這個部分那其中這個預算特別條例支持產業部分是目前看到是930億"},{"start":4490.723,"end":4519.933,"text":"那另外第三點就是優先支持國產學民藥其實我們可以仿照就是歐美先進國家甚至日本的做法訂定學民藥使用促進的一些政策包括訂定短中長期的一個加量指標那目前日本他們的學民藥使用的一個佔比已經達到80%那我們希望也能夠鼓勵公立醫院跟醫學中心的一個採購那我們相信提高學民藥使用可以增加供應韌性降低缺藥風險那最後一點"},{"start":4520.533,"end":4535.789,"text":"其實我是也是剛剛呼應一下就是那個專利連結的制度因為我們這樣看起來整個專利連結制度從2019實施到目前堪稱上稱順利但是就進一步的角度來看其實專利連結當初的考量"},{"start":4536.309,"end":4556.298,"text":"是要就是一個新藥制裁的一個保護跟學民要進入市場的一個時間取得一個平衡但是這五年來我們可以發覺整個的時間好像偏向會延緩學民要進入市場那這個在歐美也有相關的一些研究也就是說其實這個專利連結制度就是要延緩學民要進入市場"},{"start":4556.958,"end":4575.923,"text":"這個目前在歐美也有一些共識那我簡單的結論就是我想賴總統也提到健康台灣論壇那他的國家十大建言就是要打造台灣成為健康幸福的一個國家那關於多元財務管道的增加健保總額提出的策略之一是檢討藥品政策扶植國家製藥產業那"},{"start":4578.669,"end":4605.226,"text":"最後一點就是鼓勵優質國產選民還是繼續呼籲那面對全球變局我們建議強化產業誘因補助政策引導等方面著手提升本土製藥業的競爭力跟供應韌性如此才能確保未來關鍵藥品的供應穩定守護國人用藥安全以上是我的報告謝謝大家謝謝王惠宏常務理事繼續我們請陳清輝委員歡迎"},{"start":4617.25,"end":4634.399,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員還有在場關心台灣藥品供應任性的各位專家學者大家好我是婦產科醫師所以我深刻的明白藥品是治療病患最基本的工具就像我們打仗一定是需要武器一樣"},{"start":4635.399,"end":4650.348,"text":"那當然最近有發生非常多這個國外的藥物突然就退出台灣導致呢醫生他們在使用的時候必須要被迫打折或者是說可能會引發副作用或療效不佳等等的"},{"start":4650.948,"end":4664.749,"text":"所以醫師在治療病人的時候更要承擔這個風險還有不確定性藥品供應的穩定是一個後勤的問題更是維繫我們醫療品質保護病人安全的一個命脈此外呢在現今這麼國際"},{"start":4666.721,"end":4681.942,"text":"局勢詭譎多變大概都提到了這個川普的關稅問題等等所以藥品的供應穩定不僅是國際議題也是國安的問題還有社會的韌性尤其是當我們面臨傳染病危險啊"},{"start":4682.823,"end":4699.031,"text":"或是災害國際供應鏈中斷時沒有穩健的藥物儲備還有在地的生產能力就會直接衝擊我們的全民健康還有防疫效能甚至動搖社會秩序等等有些藥品是基本的民生物資更是國安的戰略資產"},{"start":4700.251,"end":4719.073,"text":"建構有韌性的藥品供應系統是國家在面對危機時守住人民健康和社會穩定的第一道防線但是大家都記憶猶新嘛去年我們爆發生理食鹽水短缺至今我們還是持續有在採購引發基層醫療和急重症照護的全面的警訊"},{"start":4720.495,"end":4735.676,"text":"不只是生理鹹水其實還有其他的問題都是最基本的醫療耗材卻牽動我們住院藥品稀釋啊清創處理啊外科手術等等多重的用途短缺所造成的影響不只是延宕了我們的治療"},{"start":4736.377,"end":4750.649,"text":"更可能危及病人的性命當然同時影響了這個護理師人力不足的議題之前就有許多護理師反映說他們在現場工作原本是用大包裝的這個書藝結果要一直來更換這種"},{"start":4751.69,"end":4771.908,"text":"徒增的工作業務都是源自於台灣藥品供應過度依賴單一製造來源缺乏彈性還有備援的機制同時政府也沒有及時的去監管掌控到這個問題最終爆發這樣子的困境那當然最近我們也是要跟這個國防外交委員會啊等等"},{"start":4772.368,"end":4797.228,"text":"持續去討論我們這些戰備的藥品到底足不足夠剛剛有聽到很多前輩已經有很多想法了那我們再把視角拉到全球的大環境川普關稅的衝擊至今都還沒有平息甚至有很多不確定的因素先前衛福部針對美國關稅衝擊就有在報告中提到因應全球供應鏈生態改變可能導致生產的成本劇增一旦關稅的影響波及到藥品藥材等等"},{"start":4800.931,"end":4826.337,"text":"上漲是勢在必行的而台灣要思考的是我國健保制度和藥品韌性可不可以因應這樣子的衝擊藥品價格上漲後如果我們的健保制度無法支付有些重要的藥品會不會又更退出台灣的市場這會影響到我們國人病患的健康權益尤其是寒病的用藥癌症的用藥等等又或者在談判的過程中如果美方要求我們要購買更多的藥品"},{"start":4827.737,"end":4840.847,"text":"更貴的藥品恐會衝擊到我們的健保財務這其中的利弊得失要怎麼權衡衛福部的角色還有決定權用到哪一個層級是接下來我們要密切關注的重點面對未來這個全球供應鏈的潛在災難風險"},{"start":4844.249,"end":4847.713,"text":"我建議政府除了建立關鍵藥品儲備清單提供供應預警還有跨部會的協調能力在打造藥品韌性的路上也應該積極的幫助我們本土的藥廠發展不論是給予能夠降低生產成本的政策支持"},{"start":4861.167,"end":4886.983,"text":"比如說付稅的優惠等等的措施也應該肩負領頭羊的角色去幫助台灣廠商到國際上去找市場比如說有一些品質優良藥效好的學民藥可以從中去穿針引線協助台灣的廠商取得代理或更經濟實惠的藥品帶入台灣造福國人的健康真正打造一個具備韌性的健康安全網"},{"start":4888.104,"end":4908.698,"text":"藥品供應穩定是守護我們醫療品質國人健康國家安全的基本從生理時間水短缺一直到全球關稅衝擊我們看到台灣的藥品體系仍存在一個結構性的風險所以我們更應該來強化預警還有儲備機制扶植在地的藥廠拓展我們國際的通路"},{"start":4909.498,"end":4917.3,"text":"並且神聖的應對健保還有藥價談判挑戰一起來打造這個具有韌性的供應才可以在動盪中穩住醫療繼續守護健康還有我們的社會謝謝"},{"start":4934.484,"end":4943.107,"text":"來 接下來我們請台北榮總胸腔科楊光耀歡迎你這個姓 我看沒人問楊謝謝 謝謝趙吉恩的邀請那很謝謝趙吉恩剛剛幫我呈現我的名字沒有印錯是太陽的楊 謝謝"},{"start":4955.799,"end":4963.103,"text":"那我今天是代表那個重症醫學會來參加這個公聽會那很謝謝那個蘇玉璇召集委員跟這個林靜雲次長的邀請那我們重症醫學會今年跟去年剛好是參與了國家熱心計劃裡面有關這個就是醫療人員負能經濟的部分的的整備"},{"start":4976.289,"end":4992.608,"text":"那跟各位簡單報告一下就是在熱心醫療裡面人員的精進計畫裡面外科系的醫療人員其實他們有一套就是外商的訓練計畫可是大家知道真正在發生狀況的時候例如說最近以色列跟伊朗之間的發生的狀況"},{"start":4993.849,"end":5018.982,"text":"很多的道路或很多的建築被損毀的時候事實上外科醫師都在醫院裡面幫忙處理這個外科的手術或其他的止血的狀況那這個在現場都是需要靠非外科系的醫療人員或是其他的Paramedical來協助所以中正學會在這個類似計劃裡面負責的角色是如果訓練非外科系的醫生"},{"start":5020.003,"end":5040.564,"text":"藉醫療人員來參與這個重大災難的訓練跟照護那很榮幸去年我們參與了醫師舉行的這個任性醫療的計畫那這個計畫裡面我們重症學院有舉辦了四場中職教室訓練營訓練了300多個中職教室那也邀請很多各學會的專家"},{"start":5042.165,"end":5067.639,"text":"來舉辦共識營那今年我們繼續在進展這個計畫的時候我們發現了一些未來可能會面臨的狀況跟各位學者專家還有委員還有總監報告一下就是我們發現去年我們在舉辦這個韌性醫療人員負能精進的時候來參加的重要是志願性的就是我們邀請各學會推派代表或各醫院推派代表那志願參加可是未來如果真的發生重大災難"},{"start":5069.232,"end":5091.951,"text":"我們需要的人是遠遠超過我們原來去年訓練的300名中職教師全國有5萬多個西醫師在職業有18萬個護理師在職業那這些二三十萬的醫療人員要怎麼訓練是未來要面臨的一個課題那我們發現訓練中職教師目標是要能夠推展課程可是推展課程必須要有"},{"start":5093.295,"end":5114.09,"text":"學習的學員那怎麼樣子讓這些學員能夠參加我覺得現在的我們的醫事人員的認證裡面我們的證照需要就是患證 患證都會要求要有倫理學分 積蓄教育 兩性 還有前年因為疫情有感控學分可是我真的期待 我也是長官我們這個醫療的未來 患證應該要有一個叫做重大災難的訓練學分"},{"start":5119.594,"end":5138.233,"text":"因為我們國家的情境其實不會屬於以色列我們面對的場景未來會就像現在大家基本上看到的狀況所有二三十萬的醫療人員不只是醫生還包括護理師 醫檢師 藥師或多少可能都需要具備一些重大災難的現場的處理的"},{"start":5141.595,"end":5147.678,"text":"訓練或是一些簡單的一些訓練的經驗在未來在第一線想辦法及時的幫助我們廣大的民眾還有幫我們的同胞在處理最前面的狀況我簡單來說我們在訓練各職類的人的時候我們其實發現很有趣的現象就是我如果訓練非外科醫師我們跟他講止血他可能說我承認"},{"start":5166.485,"end":5191.062,"text":"很久很久都沒有碰過說如何綁止血帶了這可能急診的醫師很懂外科醫師很懂可是對內科醫師對小兒科醫師可能不是那麼熟悉我們要重新再給他們重新像PGY的時候訓練一下重新讓他再做一個模擬訓練可是如果今天面對的是非醫師而已例如說今天是護理師是醫檢師是呼吸治療師那就是更"},{"start":5192.023,"end":5215.953,"text":"要跨過一個很大的鴻溝那我們其實發現自願來參加的訓練的學員的確是滿腔熱血可是未來要推廣是每一個醫療人員都要具備這樣的能力的時候需要的可能不是只有熱血可能除了剛剛講的我們需要在我們的醫事人員的基礎教育裡面加上這個中南災難的學分以外"},{"start":5216.693,"end":5234.818,"text":"可能是不是各縣市的衛生主管機關是不是定期應該要舉辦這個重大災難的訓練課程因為這個不是只有中央來做我們都知道這個真正的民防體系是地方在主導地方有內政部主導的消防署 消防局這已經做得很好"},{"start":5236.078,"end":5260.509,"text":"對 可是我覺得未來在做緊急醫療的時候不是只有消防署 消防局一方面做就可以做得到各個縣市的醫療機構不管是醫學中心或是基層診所其實都會面臨這樣的狀況那如果請各縣市的衛生主管機構來協助整合甚至幫忙代為轉達訓練計畫因為我們學位很樂意辦很多的"},{"start":5263.911,"end":5286.89,"text":"的訓練課程 可是要有就是足夠的醫療的人願意來參加然後讓他們覺得有回饋 這是一個很重要的一件事那最後還是期待就是說 因為這是一個四年的任性醫療計畫我們已經辦了兩年喔 那頭洗下去了不能做到一半 那希望說就是立委還有各位公部門的主管 就是這計畫四年把它完成"},{"start":5288.291,"end":5312.355,"text":"讓這個計畫能夠走到一個完美的境界讓這個計畫要達到目標能夠做得到讓我們所有的醫療人員都能夠在面對重大戰爭的時候都具有基本的就是急救的能力還有能夠處理的經驗讓我們在未來面對即使不面對像現在以色列跟伊朗之間的這樣的狀況我們還能夠有足夠的韌性"},{"start":5316.636,"end":5329.233,"text":"足夠的來源去面對中央 以上報告 謝謝各位謝謝 哇 講得很好耶市長可能在科魯 因為要認證 換證的時候要外産 這個很重要"},{"start":5332.677,"end":5357.246,"text":"我看到一個報導說我們台灣如果打起仗來第一個禮拜受傷的人會有七萬多人七萬多人而且是骨折跟炸裂傷或者是壓傷的所以這個真是我們有那個能量嘛所以這個我是心臟外科所以我常常思考這個問題來我們繼續請台北醫學大學副校長洪冠儀發言"},{"start":5366.803,"end":5389.16,"text":"謝謝昭偉 昭偉各位委員 各位先進 大家好代表臺北醫學大學很高興參加這個會議我想結論兩個 當然比較簡短第一個我想其實如果quot 剛剛各位先進的多元所提出來的思維包括剛剛陳委員所提到的我們可以想一個問題 我個人是在想未來這個世界上的趨勢"},{"start":5390.521,"end":5396.089,"text":"我們的工作人力在減少還有我們的人口在老化病人的壽命在延長這個趨勢會不會變"},{"start":5399.693,"end":5425.763,"text":"如果不會變的話那我們需要從現在開始就做準備不管它叫做什麼計畫我們稱它是某一種韌性也好說它是我們的整個更強化來講所以我覺得這一塊是我們所要做的所以站在一個大學的教育者我個人都覺得就好像我們現在在教小朋友們做數位學習一樣我們過去沒有學這個但現在的大學生都要教數位學習要教新的東西"},{"start":5426.643,"end":5455.062,"text":"所以我們從現在開始如果能夠讓各行各業尤其在醫界的夥伴們包括在藥界包括在國內製藥包括在醫材包括在醫院大家都能夠一起來看到這個問題來做有個共同的一個平台我覺得這是一個很好的決定而且這個決定是我們開始一起走的一個第一步這是我個人覺得衛福部當初提出這樣的一個韌性醫藥的準備計畫我個人是覺得相當的欽佩這是很重要的一件事情"},{"start":5456.523,"end":5480.984,"text":"所以我覺得這件事情其實不是討論要不要做的問題而是我們要討論我們怎麼做以及要做到哪裡那所以在這個呢我就講到第二個我的結論的部分要跟大家報告事實上我想我今天會過來是因為台北醫學大學承接了這個計畫來做一個管理中心那這個vision是什麼這個vision是希望說這個核心core"},{"start":5481.364,"end":5506.525,"text":"是希望所有的醫事人員醫事單位醫院各層級能夠搭在一起能夠有著醫療的一個準備就像剛剛楊主任所講的過去外科醫師我們希望他開刀無盡希望他能夠做微創甚至做顯微甚至做達文西但是在戰爭或者變故或者醫院孤島這些統統無效你必須直接劃開可能是回到最原始的手術"},{"start":5507.365,"end":5523.881,"text":"所以醫師們過去的訓練現在要加新的訓練我想剛剛楊主任也提到了那其他的領域都是一樣包括急救加護包括各種的一個護理人員等等所以如果能夠有一個計畫能夠來持續的推動這個我想很重要"},{"start":5524.341,"end":5538.677,"text":"所以北一做的這個是最重要的核心把大家的東西re-design我們要re-educate我們要學新的skill把舊的knowledge做transform這樣才可能學到新的東西因為你從舊的思維培養不出新的人才"},{"start":5539.358,"end":5555.194,"text":"然後接著外面一圈是所謂的韌性的社區因為醫院不是孤島醫院存活在社區就像不好意思就是像我們昭緯所在的那個高屏地區這麼重要的一個地方我們的民眾的交易民眾跟我們在一起甚至醫療網要怎麼做連結我覺得這才是一個否則我們做的還是一個fragmented"},{"start":5560.76,"end":5584.793,"text":"第三段是要到任性的全民就像我所講的我們教育我們的同仁或者我們的國人到底要教育哪些東西所有所有這些事情要做怎麼做做到什麼程度剛剛聽到各位先進們從不同的領域跨領域的多元我們提到很多需求包括國產要包括一些怎麼樣的政策我想這都是非常非常好的細節上面的政策"},{"start":5585.433,"end":5612.08,"text":"如果我們把它從這個戰術上提升到戰略上來講的話應該就是要先開始建立一個制度而這是第一步有一個平台開始去做那我相信在學校的角度或者個人本身也是一位醫師我覺得能夠一起來參與我想這是很重要的一件事情最後結論兩項再重複跟大家報告一次第一個我認為這個問題不是做不做的問題是怎麼做以及我們要做到哪裡"},{"start":5612.81,"end":5632.026,"text":"而這個關鍵要做到哪裡是看我們投入多少資源那另外從各界的剛剛的發言我雖然沒有聽到後面我相信一樣都是非常寶貴的經驗但光聽前面就會知道一個東西或一個決定可以成為火車頭可以去帶動其他的產業其他的更多的創新"},{"start":5632.987,"end":5655.715,"text":"我相信我們會變得更好這樣的投資源它是一個value這就是價值我個人是覺得如果能夠做這樣促進的話站在一個國人站在一個大學的角度的資金的甚至醫院裡面的一些經營者我個人是覺得非常願意來跟這樣來做配合以及各個領域的的專家跟key opinion leader大家一起來合作謝謝大家"},{"start":5660.243,"end":5680.118,"text":"謝謝洪副校長我是覺得他講得很好就是可能惡務部跟國防部要好好的配合,任重道遠真的打起仗來國防部的量能夠嗎?軍醫量能夠嗎?我真的很懷疑好,繼續我們請陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":5689.529,"end":5716.659,"text":"主席 各位醫藥界朋友還有各位行政官員 大家好謝謝主席能夠安排今天這個台灣韌性醫藥的準備計畫這樣的一個公聽會我認為這現在非常關鍵也非常的急迫那藥品 以藥品來說藥品不是商品而且甚至是民眾在生命最後一線的一個最重要的一個依靠之一那如果連基本的藥品都沒有辦法穩定的供應的話其他的政策有時候是相當的空談那我今天就三個層面來"},{"start":5718.68,"end":5722.841,"text":"來期待這個計畫這個整備計畫第一個醫療韌性不能失之口號修補制度必須是正式災難管理的一個空窗期必須趕快來做我們從COVID-19的這個疫情有學到如果你平時沒有建立好的制度那個等災難來的時候它不會自動出現所以以醫療資源整備為例目前有個緊急醫療救護法第12條"},{"start":5743.607,"end":5772.432,"text":"雖然他有提到雖然要這個應該要有災難醫療機構及醫療資源但具體去盤點他的這個整合儲備的這個標準還是很粗略的那部會之間的分工都不明確那我的過往經驗去了解很多藥廠其實是想協助備援的很多藥廠其實是想協助備援但是苦無明確的一個政策跟預算的一個機制那也有不少醫院在因為這個在缺藥時第一個時間就想找替代品"},{"start":5773.783,"end":5787.807,"text":"但是因為某一些廠商它可能佔率比較大所以其他廠商根本無法很快的來接應那我想生理食鹽水就是一項很慘痛的經驗這不是個案 是制度的漏洞上所造成的一個這樣的狀況所以我認為要強化台灣的這個醫療韌性除了沾濫時的緊急應變要建立平常就可以運作的一個常設的一個制度"},{"start":5798.13,"end":5813.401,"text":"不光是在這個跨部會的協調我這裡跨部會學尤其要指健保署跟食藥署健保署今天我好像沒有看到有同事有出席好謝謝那他們的牽手合作很重要我也是在質詢台上就請他們邱部長就他們兩個牽一牽手就是這個兩位署長牽牽手要上游下游要合作"},{"start":5820.166,"end":5846.412,"text":"那藥品的分類備援效期的彈性處理這個我稍微會再講效期的彈性處理乃至於物流資訊的整合都需要有具體的法治依據跟預算支持這是第一個我要談的第二個藥品是戰略資源不能只用市場的機制市場的邏輯來治理從永豐的這個生理鹹水缺貨這件事開始我們看到多次的缺藥危機都相同的邏輯反覆出現只要價格太低利潤太薄藥廠就退場"},{"start":5849.093,"end":5877.288,"text":"那你看價格的話只看價格的話醫院就會當然這很自然嘛為了營運就會選擇要價差的藥品那可能甚至選擇性的這個不禁藥最後受害的還都是病人我今年四月有主持了一個健保三十民眾用藥的這個品質回顧跟展望公聽會許多與會者都有指出同樣的問題如果當要價差成為藥廠和醫院之間的博弈工具當地形化的契約制度失靈了當地板架的機制缺位"},{"start":5878.348,"end":5901.453,"text":"那病人真的能夠用到該用的藥嗎那所以在整個藥價結構沒有調整這個健保財務還不能夠還在緊縮的狀況下我們不能再假裝說讓市場自己去找出它的平衡沒有辦法這樣放著我們不能認為這件事是一個好的答案所以藥品應該被視為一個公共資源運用戰略來管理所以我支持政府編列穩定供應的這個備援預算"},{"start":5905.094,"end":5910.016,"text":"但我希望這不是臨時紓困,否臨時紓困的這個方式而是有制度的有架構的一個常態機制第三個我要談的是建立制度的這個透明還有如何去保障病人這個用藥的一個結構跟體系我要強調是民眾不會只關心藥在哪裡他還會關心說為什麼沒有健健保那也會關心說為什麼給付之後我還是用不到呢"},{"start":5929.562,"end":5938.429,"text":"那為什麼價格的估算跟我們理解差距這麼大所以我要特別補充我們辦公室長期追蹤的一個具體問題我要請次長能夠多幫忙衛福部醫院藥品採購強制要求長效期的聯標"},{"start":5945.695,"end":5963.108,"text":"合法合格和效期的藥品被退貨廠商不敢供貨病人也無藥可用我們一年多來過去一年一直在不斷的跟醫福會做溝通也看到八大藥業工協會主動發函建議調整效期標準到五到八個月這件事我也有跟江署長也有做過討論而且"},{"start":5966.73,"end":5971.673,"text":"藥界他們也提供相關的這個退換貨的一個配套專家指出你如果把效期規範太嚴苛就比如說你收藥的時候每個醫院收藥的時候他還要保留多長多長的這個效期可能使得一些生產廠商他會退出市場減少產能影響整個藥品的供應的這個情況那現在也有學者分析你基於公共利益彈性方寬這個效期這個效期不是指那個Label上的效期而是說你在收藥的時候"},{"start":5995.206,"end":6001.631,"text":"這都不會涉及圖利問題因為法律並無禁止但讓人家無法接受是衣服會始終用一些非常奇怪的理由搪塞說什麼遠洋漁業這個要很長很長的效期完全沒有負起主責機關應有的協調跟改革責任我們希望這個部分也能夠好好處理我已經追蹤了很久我想八大工學會聽這個都非常的清楚他們的困難點那我希望整個衛福部能夠統一快速統一政策否則部長上面喊得很大聲"},{"start":6025.029,"end":6045.906,"text":"大家說那下面沒有辦法趕快牽手合作不願意改進那不要再讓病人因為體制的錯亂而無藥可用市長我剛剛在談那個時候您都沒有看我我真的希望那個衣服會的部分謝謝你就是說我們就是一個合理的要求就是說因為現在他們甚至要求校期要六個月以上那這是沒有依據的一個說法"},{"start":6048.248,"end":6057.674,"text":"消息不能任意延長也不能任意縮短簡單來說尊重他的儲存時間所應該有的這個消息國家這個衛福部醫院應該率先來做表率好謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":6076.745,"end":6097.691,"text":"主席委員各位與會長官好我是外商急症外科鄭啟同醫師我也是外科醫學會外商委員會的總幹事在這邊代表外科醫學會發言本會是負責台灣任性醫療醫藥準備計畫裡面精進外科系的醫療任性訓練主軸也就是針對外商患者的處理"},{"start":6099.411,"end":6117.74,"text":"大家都知道台灣的外科醫師在很多領域都是世界知名的分科也都很專精包括換肝、顯微手術、大蚊蜥這些大家都常常聽到可是在嚴重外傷的患者因為其實在台灣相對是一個安全和平的國家所以患者數量相對比較少"},{"start":6118.76,"end":6136.093,"text":"其實在各家醫學中心的經驗也比較缺乏通常嚴重外傷的患者會集中在各家醫學中心所以區域醫院、地區醫院他們對這些嚴重外傷患者的處理經驗可以說是非常少通常都是在第一時間穩定之後就往後送"},{"start":6137.634,"end":6151.423,"text":"實際上6000多位外科醫師裡面有外傷專長的只有300到400位左右自從921以來大量傷患的各個事件場景各位應該都歷歷在目但實際上在各家醫院從事重大外傷醫療的醫師是相對的少數"},{"start":6155.166,"end":6175.76,"text":"那韓國跟台灣的醫療環境類似可是韓國在外商醫療在十多年前他們有國家的力量投注很多的資源建立了很多專職的外商中心那近年來已經開花結果那降低外商的死亡率大家可以從Netflix的這個劇都可以看到他們對於這個外商醫療的重視跟投入"},{"start":6176.66,"end":6203.531,"text":"外科醫學會在計畫中是負責建立教材、課程和各項指引希望能夠增加所有外科醫師對於外傷患者的處理能力目前隨著任性計畫的執行已經製作了許多影片、VR教材還有按照期程開設了一些實體課程在今年度也會訓練各家醫學中心的備援手術室人員以期待災變來臨的時候能夠有足夠的能力應備希望各位委員支持"},{"start":6206.759,"end":6223.252,"text":"好,謝謝鄭醫師我跟醫生真的不錯什麼都說完了我就沒這麼快了來,我們請台灣醫院協會副理事長詹德萬"},{"start":6237.791,"end":6258.807,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有各位官員 各位代表醫院協會這裡 前面就審掉 就列了 我只提重點第一個就 因為醫院團體是一個執行的單位那剛剛衛福部的這個報告我是覺得還滿務實的"},{"start":6263.251,"end":6274.151,"text":"從中間會知道是執行單位是我們基層協會辦公室設在北一其實都是很務實的做法中關的整個計畫大概有三個重點"},{"start":6275.407,"end":6294.653,"text":"一個是那個醫療能量就12個醫院的加強這個部分還OK我們醫院可以配合我就直接講了可以配合而且以前也已經在做了所以這是OK的第二個呢關於這個人員整備資能這包括剛剛提到一個重點我們外商醫"},{"start":6295.353,"end":6314.944,"text":"外科外商醫師人力的訓練不足這是一個重點這是一個隱憂另外一個整個所有民眾知識人要訓練這也是要加強的這個部分要在醫院跟醫院協會這邊也是說實在也可以配合就免以配合第三個關於那個設備的維護這個問題就比較複雜一點了"},{"start":6320.527,"end":6349.266,"text":"因為這個醫院的性質然後它的那個地區還有它的那個整個作業其實有很大的差異啦大小規模通通不一樣就這個剛才也提到了我們醫院的作業其實目前中小醫院的能量其實並不足啦那既然做了這個計畫要做一些整變所以我是建議應該整體去考量"},{"start":6350.103,"end":6363.988,"text":"整體去考量不是說我現在只做了這個計畫這個計畫要去看啦其實應該整體拉進來做檢討然後看看整個不只是平時的急診醫療包括你要是說真的有狀況整個作業連起來連動才會好嘛"},{"start":6366.329,"end":6383.629,"text":"所以就這個部分我是覺得可能在因為今年是第二年的計畫執行的前一年設了單位做了這些第二年那就完成了把整個細部計畫列出來然後這個部分就要考慮到經營會的問題"},{"start":6385.517,"end":6406.112,"text":"經費可能要用在設備的維護上面設備維護醫院的補助可能不只是針對這個前套的考量地方所以主要因地制宜考量地方的經費問題這可能要想想看就是在這邊那個衛福部還有那個醫事室長都在我們過去長期以來的這種"},{"start":6408.794,"end":6431.765,"text":"這種交流我覺得醫師師在這上面的反應是非常好的而且中間我們配合的作業績效其實也還不錯這做了好我們應該要肯定一下但是在後續做了後面這一段我是覺得經費上面可能要好好去考慮也就是說我們辦公室北醫辦公室這裡"},{"start":6432.805,"end":6460.044,"text":"在執行或者在離部細部計畫的時候可能我是建議啦要跟相關的團體多多聯繫一下甚至幾個代表性的醫院也邀請過來大家談一下我們務實的去做因為經費有限你不好好地把它去商量把錢放在應該做的地方那就很可惜了啦這是一個另外關於藥品的部分"},{"start":6460.965,"end":6476.926,"text":"今天在座的有一半以上都是我們藥界的代表所以就這部分在醫院裡面藥也是一個部分所以就這部分我們尊重各位先進的意見但是要完成的就是說第一個就整個通報"},{"start":6478.067,"end":6496.501,"text":"短缺通報這個機制這個平臺要讓它真正有效才好啦我們也不要去舉例舉例就傷人啦那舉人更是傷人啦所以就這個部分讓這個平臺有效從醫院跟我們藥廠可以在這個平臺上面看到問題到底出在哪裡我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":6498.193,"end":6521.412,"text":"來補正這件事情 隨時可以反映出來平時這樣子 要是非常時期 這個更是重要啦所以這一個平壤的建制 我們肯定但是要有效是這樣子啦所以終結就是說第一個因地制宜第二個寬烈經費第三個醫院會絕對配合感謝"},{"start":6526.107,"end":6537.91,"text":"醫院協會全力配合就對了啦好 那我們接著請台北醫學大學藥學院長張偉橋我們請台灣"},{"start":6551.159,"end":6564.593,"text":"醫藥品法規協會法規協議理事長 康兆周 我們的前藥政處處長好 主席 各位行政官員 還有各位委員還有各位醫藥界的專家學者"},{"start":6568.237,"end":6588.552,"text":"我想這個今天我談到這個任性的問題當然有很多是可能是因為重大災害尤其包含戰爭這部分可能要發生什麼事情其實在三年前在曾經到行政院跟政委討論這件事情那其實他問的是原料藥的問題當然其實我跟他講說其實在"},{"start":6591.634,"end":6608.081,"text":"我們可能在病死之前我們可能先餓死因為大家其實都沒有去注意到我們台灣糧食已經很大部分都是仰賴進口所以這個其實是最大的問題"},{"start":6611.022,"end":6631.022,"text":"那針對今天的問題就是藥品的問題其實剛才很多人都談過了我就不再追緒那第一點有幾個建議第一點就是確實要謹慎的要盤點也要台灣製造藥品在必要藥品清單裡面所謂的佔比那剛才聽柯營已經有在盤點但是盤點完之後呢"},{"start":6632.864,"end":6659.798,"text":"到底要做什麼事情其實是比較重要的所以剛才提到也有人提到就是說對於一些特殊的藥品像比如說抗生素或一些特殊的製劑要予以鼓勵研發以及誘因那這個在誘因之下呢其實除了經濟的誘因之外剛才也有人提到就是說產業發展條例裡面去怎麼樣的一個補助其實很重要的一點也是從法規面上來看"},{"start":6660.678,"end":6683.335,"text":"所以必須要制定合理的一個要求 並提升審查的效率那當然最近 食藥署或者CDE這邊其實對外來講說我審查效率很高 其實他用的時間是跟美國或其他國家審新藥的時間來相比其實是覺得很可惜啦 就是說別人審過的東西 我們還要再花同樣的時間來審 其實"},{"start":6685.436,"end":6711.309,"text":"那像美國它最近就前幾天才發布了就是說它針對一些特殊的藥品如果能夠來申請的時候它的審查效率可以從一年減到一到兩個月美國都做得到 其實我們為什麼做不到所以那為什麼要審查效率要提高呢其實對於這些廠商在進入研發開始認為說有一利機要進入研發的時候"},{"start":6712.129,"end":6735.64,"text":"開始做實驗很多的規定然後審查又很慢到最後審查出來可能是三四年以後的那個時候立即就不見了那所以對於這個所以很多的廠商不願意投入研發因為對於這個台灣的法規面上其實自愛難行所以這個其實是要來加強的一個部分那另外一個就是"},{"start":6737.081,"end":6754.394,"text":"剛剛也有人提到就是說我們現在外銷越來越好確實不錯我們的製藥品質越來越好我們也有很多的新藥所以我們的外銷越來越好但是呢很可惜的就是說我們政府並沒有帶動其實在十多年前我們就有一些計畫"},{"start":6755.675,"end":6774.808,"text":"在為了配合南向政府南向的計畫就是跟南向的這些國家的政府的機關保持非常良好的關係甚至打個電話就可以跟對方聯絡到現在結果到六七年前就斷掉了就不再做這件事情了那所以只要廠商呢就到處碰壁"},{"start":6776.569,"end":6794.165,"text":"甚至到菲律賓一個藥證可能要三四年才能出來那這不太可能就來鼓勵這個一個外銷啦那為什麼要鼓勵一個外銷其實貝亞一直剛才提到就是說要給國產的怎麼樣的補助啦等等加強其實我認為說應該要讓他們能夠成長"},{"start":6797.928,"end":6820.796,"text":"比較重要啦不要一直補助啦所以永遠補助不完所以如果能讓他們成長的話其實是應該更好的一個方式所以我們國家缺少了一個很完整的學民藥的一個政策學民藥的政策的重要性呢其實看來各國要鼓勵學民藥的製造就是為了要節省醫療的支出"},{"start":6821.796,"end":6838.696,"text":"把這些全民藥的政策弄好之後其實我們就可以很多的資源可以到醫護人員可以到新藥的引進所以這個其實是一個很重要的一環但是很可惜的就是說剛剛也有提到了我們現在"},{"start":6839.817,"end":6865.307,"text":"就是有很多過專歷的藥五年以上的過甚至到十年的它的藥價還是非常的高它的策略性能夠造成這樣子那健保署一點方法都沒有去讓它這個整個藥價掉下來其實日本的話它其實看到如果說學名藥的佔有率在逐年沒有增加改善的時候它就會去砍藥 直接的砍藥價"},{"start":6866.843,"end":6882.074,"text":"直接砍原廠樣的藥價另外所以他其實他對於這個藥證太多產生紅海市場的時候他也提出一些鼓勵的措施所以這個其實我們必須要有一個那個選民藥的政策"},{"start":6883.769,"end":6908.804,"text":"那當然大家也提到說剛剛有一些人提到說這個全民藥其實佔有率其實不低啦我們台灣已經到75%了75%、25%的一個比例但是就是說獲利不多只有25%的獲利但新藥反而獲利比較高那當然就是說覺得這個藥價太低了但是我個人有不同的看法我覺得這是因為我們國產"},{"start":6910.505,"end":6926.415,"text":"就是藥廠太多了就是藥證重疊性太高量太少 成本太高所以他只能做 而且缺少研發的能量所以就只能賣這些低價的藥品所以當然是一個 那我覺得這應該要"},{"start":6932.319,"end":6940.012,"text":"國家要成立一個所謂的合併的基金然後來提供減免或稅金等措施的誘因來鼓勵我們的藥廠能夠合併"},{"start":6944.113,"end":6960.657,"text":"在合併之外呢但是因為我們現在很多的藥廠其實很多的土地啊這廠房其實已經都折舊光了所以他其實如果說你可以給他一個適當的一個鼓勵的時候他可以就是往比較高價的藥品來研發來開發所以這個可以來解決到就是說這個國內藥廠太多那個都是賣低價的藥品的困境"},{"start":6973.2,"end":6988.735,"text":"那當然剛剛有提到說原料要來取代其實我們上次的言議之下實在是也不太可能啦所以因為我們知道我們現在剛剛也提到了原料要自製只有15%所以要來"},{"start":6992.438,"end":7021.354,"text":"把提升的自治率實在是不太 cover是不太可能的事情就算是印度他已經是這是cover全球19%的一個他在2020的時候就拿出9億的美金來推動三年計畫他也只能推動30個原料藥所以像我們這邊所以我們這邊所謂的每次說要補助都是"},{"start":7023.535,"end":7048.926,"text":"幾億 幾億 這其實是不足的啦 不足於是所以我想這個有很多的事情那謝謝委員能夠召開今天的公聽會那以上一些意見要請大家參考好 謝謝康造州理事長那接續我們請台北醫學大學藥學院院長我先補充 先這樣 先上"},{"start":7050.302,"end":7068.65,"text":"我們補充介紹來賓黃啟嘉醫師醫師前年會常務理事也是前花蓮縣醫師公會理事長黃榮蘭理事長是我們製藥同業公會理事長再來是我們的張宏仁董事長"},{"start":7088.953,"end":7094.134,"text":"主席各位委員各位長官還有各位醫藥界的先進大家好我是台北醫學大學張偉橋"},{"start":7096.823,"end":7117.896,"text":"當我們在談任性的時候一定不是一個歲月靜好的時刻它可能不至於兵歡馬亂但是大概也是雞飛狗跳的時刻什麼是任性昨天在做投影片的時候想到兩句話疾風之盡草第二句話是野火燒不盡春風吹又生"},{"start":7119.321,"end":7147.663,"text":"換句話說你要知道堅韌不拔的草必須在狂風中你要去體驗生命的頑強跟不屈再生的恢復力那必須在野火的情況下所以這個就是韌性韌性就是在內靜當中的生存能力抵禦或是去抵消衝擊的能力第三個部分就是在創傷中能夠迅速恢復的能力這大概就是韌性"},{"start":7149.5,"end":7176.13,"text":"那以前沒有在談任性這幾年不管各個部會乃至於在大專院校裡面大家都在談任性當然要面對的就是全球動盪的衝擊還有要面對幾項威脅第一個威脅當然就是川普的威脅貿易保護主義高關稅的政策再來就是疫情疫情期間的原料要短缺導致的供應斷鏈"},{"start":7177.768,"end":7192.624,"text":"那戰爭這幾年的戰爭烏俄戰爭也好以色列伊朗的戰爭地緣政治的風險乃至於國安危機這是大家現在很擔心的那這幾個衝擊之下呢"},{"start":7194.755,"end":7221.058,"text":"跟我們的醫藥有關的就是缺藥問題去年前年報章雜誌一直在報導有關於缺藥不過缺藥也不是只有台灣發生缺藥英國也在發生缺藥美國也在發生缺藥全世界都在發生缺藥那缺藥問題為什麼這麼嚴重呢第一個它攸關社會穩定它攸關的是民眾的信任的問題"},{"start":7222.119,"end":7240.854,"text":"他在用藥的過程中你要確保他不能中斷不然他會危及生命第二個他要維持國家的醫療體系的運作在COVID-19的時間我們就看得很清楚一旦藥品供應斷裂那會導致醫療體系的崩潰第三個是很嚴肅的國安戰備"},{"start":7243.943,"end":7259.528,"text":"藥品 糧食以及能源它被視為三大的戰略資源第四個 第四個跟經濟有關 跟產業有關我們要扶植我們本土的產業因為製藥業是具有高技術高附加價值的生技產業"},{"start":7261.877,"end":7287.98,"text":"那從我們的藥證主管機關到各個工協會幾位前輩幾位先進都提出過非常有前瞻性的看法其中江志剛署長在今年WHA的一個國際藥品供應鏈的一個論壇裡面他提出一個非常前瞻性的看法這個是其他工協會當時沒有想到過的就是建立區域的供應鏈"},{"start":7289.381,"end":7317.448,"text":"这是一个很好的做法为什么呢我们提到任性的时候实际上任性的一环就是弹性任性的一环就是激动在不稳定的情况下去寻求相对的稳定这种情况下什么都自己做来不来得及有没有更好的方式那署长当时提到的叫区域供应链也就是分工复补资源共享他的目的就是降低对单一国家的"},{"start":7318.668,"end":7334.005,"text":"過度依賴的風險那也提到了用最少的藥物經費來照顧最多的病人在食藥署裡面盤點國內藥品供應是政策的重點希望能夠達到強化供應鏈跟減輕藥物經濟的負擔"},{"start":7337.199,"end":7360.127,"text":"那剛才學民藥學會陳理事長也提到他在今年的4月也提到三項建議也是非常好的建議第一項建議就是衛福部的醫藥韌性計畫應該納入全台社區藥局全台藥廠及醫療廠來打造醫療藥品供應韌性第二個部分是健保署的部分用政策來引導"},{"start":7362.659,"end":7387.71,"text":"國產製藥提升品質建立醫病對於國產藥品的信任那第三個部分就是藥價因為通膨很嚴重必須要適度必須要及時反映藥價的調整全聯會也曾經提出過一些看法剛才葉明公葉顧問也有做了一些說明其中最重要就是兩項第一項是藥師藥師應該要納入社會防衛的韌性體制"},{"start":7391.741,"end":7415.997,"text":"那第二個部分是從COVID-19的啟示而來的社區藥局很重要社區藥局應該可以作為物資儲備以及物資調動的中心提供急需藥品醫療器材還有第一線的藥事服務換句話說把藥師納入社會防衛的韌性體系可以強化國家的健康與安全"},{"start":7417.762,"end":7434.577,"text":"那其實在去年國科會也曾經召開有關臺灣原料藥供應鏈那我是國科會的藥學及中醫學門召集人也參與這個會議當時非常擔心原料藥斷鏈的狀況我們學門裡面有做過一些盤點也提出了幾項建言第一個就是"},{"start":7435.698,"end":7457.519,"text":"推動關鍵藥品國產化可能性評估的產學研究方案第二件是開發綠色環保製藥流程低碳低耗能的新製程第三是導入AI導入自動化來提升本土產能最後一個部分是透過真實世界數據的評估來評估缺藥對脆弱族群"},{"start":7458.208,"end":7470.402,"text":"例如老年人慢性疾病的患者的衝擊那在這張短片我個人提出幾項建議第一項建議就是我呼應署長的想法建立區域供應鏈"},{"start":7471.946,"end":7495.137,"text":"資源共享降低對單一國家的過度依賴第二個部分我們要建立價格市井機制依照品質需求來調整地板價兼顧用藥權及藥廠的合理利潤才能夠穩定供貨第三個部分政策應該要做一些鬆綁我們要有明確的法源依據來做財政的支撐"},{"start":7497.03,"end":7514.437,"text":"應該要善用特別預算或前瞻計畫的經費投入在供應鏈韌性的建設再來一個部分是AI要投入AI跟自動化透過研究計畫這是國科會應該做的或是產學合作鼓勵結合AI演算法自動化設備與實際製藥流程的生產線效率"},{"start":7518.479,"end":7542.942,"text":"那另外一個部分是制定 剛才很多前輩提到的 制定關鍵藥品清單的部分當然羅列這些清單很重要 但是我認為更重要的應該是政府要採取措施 確保穩定工藝 怎麼做呢必須要定期監測存量 要求提報生產跟庫存的訊息及動用預算進行儲備"},{"start":7544.775,"end":7558.081,"text":"再來是政府建立藥品韌性辦公室那這個規格不能夠太低最好是能夠由總統府列管來確保這個議題能夠獲得持續的重視以及資源的投入"},{"start":7559.454,"end":7575.741,"text":"有關於醫院的部分醫院採購應該要保持彈性現行的採購往往強調價格強調成本控制不過在韌性的考量之下應該要導入更多的彈性以及安全係數最後一個部分是教育端"},{"start":7576.361,"end":7601.261,"text":"我來自於學校學校要開立課程現在學校的課程裡面比較沒有評估藥品供應的能力所以在開課的部分應該建議藥學系要開課藥廠製造生產以及藥品流通的管理課程未來當學生踏出校園進到職場的時候他就能夠成為藥品供應任性當中最重要的第一線以上 謝謝"},{"start":7607.412,"end":7631.353,"text":"謝謝張院長我剛才跟大家報告,我們就不休息啦因為進行的很順利啦要上洗手間的人自己想辦法因為待會來休息,爪爪跑掉了人氣就沒了來,我們再來請台灣司令院院所協會秘書長吳明燕"},{"start":7639.827,"end":7657.702,"text":"謝謝委員召開這個公聽會基本上台灣的醫療在全世界評比都這麼好我也常常代表台灣到全世界去先導我們的國際醫療那基本上我們人力很好人力大概基本上不成問題我們人力即使在戰爭的時候以台灣政府的愛心只要足夠的信念我覺得都不是問題"},{"start":7658.823,"end":7683.337,"text":"那我覺得我們現在最大的問題就是錢啦 財務 錢而已 錢沒錢那個等一下再談 那另外我自己 我不曉得今天委員會是只有針對藥品 看起來好像都沒有討論到材料因為藥品大概佔我們醫院25% 材料佔10%那等戰爭的時候 材料也很重要喔這個我不曉得委員是不是另外要討論那另外還有一個議題 我覺得好像可能也要討論 資訊安全"},{"start":7685.938,"end":7712.66,"text":"這個很大我們不要發生像新加坡的總理的資料全部被盜走的時候國家才緊張喔或者是我們哪一天台灣有一個領導人的資料被拿走然後整個公布的時候大家才知道說原來資訊安全很重要或怎麼樣那這個部分我是提外問好那我回到今天的本題我覺得今天第一個關稅的時候還沒有發生那看起來關稅只是錢增加只要有錢都買得到東西可能問題不大當然是"},{"start":7714.461,"end":7734.54,"text":"最大的問題是在戰爭那衛福部這兩年已經有很好的規劃我們的很多協會都接到很多計畫我覺得這都很好都已經在準備了看起來是政府已經有well prepared那從我們醫院因為我們醫院的使用角度來看的話我們的過程其實很短因為為什麼我們要太講究效力了"},{"start":7735.12,"end":7756.26,"text":"我們管理很好嘛,我常常說我們管理很好,我們現在大家都要...管理好就是庫存期很短啊這沒辦法,這個是從頭打血來的嘛庫存期很短的事,庫存量都沒夠啊這個部分也要靠政府來幫忙那另外一個是供應鏈的問題,全球供應鏈每一個國家都可以卡別人"},{"start":7757.52,"end":7773.789,"text":"我們台灣可以卡人家Semiconductor美國也可以用,因為你很多Semiconductor裡面的軟體設計的軟體都是美國的,也可以卡別人,但大陸也可以用C2卡你啊所以每個國家互相有自己的優勢每個人都有自己的優勢,這個變成很麻煩的問題"},{"start":7776.03,"end":7801.743,"text":"那我解決的方案大概有講過了畢竟我們是使用待會我們要的是政府可能要撥一筆錢把台灣北中南都有一個很大的擴展中心這些擴展中心就是說既然要準備就要了結嘛這些準備的東西準備好快過期了就趕快免費的或者是折價給醫院使用那你又買一批新的只能這樣子才維持一個國家的一個韌性"},{"start":7802.924,"end":7819.281,"text":"那另外一個是第二個建議我是覺得政府應該要派一組人到烏克蘭去既然天底下有人花了有人齁公開天安的俄羅斯鳥仔一隻去打戰齁那烏克蘭鳥仔一隻要守護齁這是"},{"start":7821.383,"end":7849.009,"text":"等於是我們因為我們叫做天然的experience人家創造一個機會給我們我們未來可能會發生戰爭為什麼不派一組人到那邊去長期進駐就是像醫生護士長期在烏克蘭知道他們發生什麼該準備什麼那缺什麼那個資料回補所以我覺得政府要花這一筆錢急診的準備一組人到那邊去幫他們那醫院整個長住在那邊半年我相信這個資料蒐集回來對我們會長有幫忙"},{"start":7851.789,"end":7869.774,"text":"那個要保障嘛,你要買保險嘛買保險嘛,買保險這個對我們的資料,蒐集回來才知道說怎麼應變戰爭如果我們台灣以外在的危機這麼大準備戰爭,事實上我還有一個瘋狂的想法當初如果我是小英總統的話"},{"start":7871.77,"end":7896.326,"text":"烏克蘭打戰的時候 台灣出F16的戰鬥員 美國出飛機 我去幫你打為什麼 天然人沒有這麼好的機會訓練F16的戰鬥員這麼好的機會 當然你要買很好的保險 給他很好的待遇天底下我跟你講 只要有錢就是有人願意去冒險這是我們管理 我們那時候愛滋病房沒人要去我們就這個月加五千塊 沒人去 下個月一萬塊有人來登記了"},{"start":7898.414,"end":7919.689,"text":"那是愛滋病法你看看那麼危險喔還沒有藥的時候我們就這樣管理啊田底下只要有錢就是有人願意冒險啊只要你足夠給他買一億的保險你如果過去被他打掉一億那你薪水給他一格一百萬我不相信台灣的F16但是這是最好的機會啊我們台灣沒有你有機會信任戰爭信任我們的F16戰鬥員嗎"},{"start":7921.718,"end":7931.801,"text":"沒有機會啦只有那個機會,那個機會最好而且是符合美國,剛好是拜登那時候剛好要建立更好的中美關係這是題外話,好謝謝啊笑了笑了好我做理事長,他要做理事長所以我可以給他賣,沒關係來,繼續我們請"},{"start":7948.713,"end":7951.434,"text":"臨床藥學會理事長張玉立歡迎主席還有在場各位委員還有各位先進各位專家那今天非常榮幸代表臺灣臨床藥學會來這邊來跟大家報告因為我們在過去其實10年多前食藥署就委託臺灣臨床藥學會"},{"start":7978.141,"end":7996.407,"text":"建立這個藥品短缺的供應資料的一個平台那我們跟食藥署充分的合作那目前這個平台的運作雖然大家可能有很多的期待但是至少這個平台目前其實我們可以講在世界上甚至我們在一些國際的場合"},{"start":7998.867,"end":8025.254,"text":"對我們的這個機制做的一些分享其實很多的國家都對這個方式是非常肯定的那當然這個缺要不是只有平台還有資訊揭露它還有很多這個上游產業整體還有我們這個我們台灣這個大環境的一些限制的問題所以資訊平台的建立非常重要但是很多的環節要一起配套"},{"start":8026.138,"end":8048.069,"text":"那這是一個部分那另外一個部分因為我們臨床藥學會也承蒙食藥署的信任我們也在三年前開始接這個戰備的藥品的一個相關的庫存整備的一個計畫那所以我現在就簡單的跟各位報告我們這些經過這些幾年的經驗我們有一些建議"},{"start":8052.298,"end":8074.72,"text":"那第一個呢 我當然是要 echo 我們陳昭之委員他其實在很多場合講過很多遍 就是我們在資訊的流通的部分 特別是我們政府單位食藥署跟健保署他們之間的資訊的連通的效率其實非常重要 我相信現在已經有很好的機制 但是"},{"start":8075.641,"end":8093.28,"text":"也許在連通的資訊分享的效率上可以再提升因為很多的藥品短缺其實它跟藥品的合價是有一些連結的所以這部分是希望可以再精進"},{"start":8094.673,"end":8110.626,"text":"那另外還有一個部分就是我們在輸液的經驗裡面還有很多藥品可能需要下市的這個決策的過程其實可能依照法規或者安全性做這樣的處置都是我們可以理解的但是因為"},{"start":8111.386,"end":8137.169,"text":"後面在臨床上就可能會有很多應變上節奏沒有辦法搭配的問題會製造很多臨床的一些狀況那特別是輸液問題我想大家是學到非常慘痛的經驗所以是建議在未來在任何的這樣子的決策之前可以跟臨床使用單位有更好的一些溝通在做這樣子的決策以求周全"},{"start":8138.837,"end":8163.68,"text":"那另外就是關於健保核價的部分因為我們知道有一些產品因為我們健保使用非常有效率所以我們的價錢大家都知道可能是世界數一數二的最低價那我們才能用最低的最少的資源完成這麼多的病人照顧但是這樣的情況其實對我們藥品供應是非常不利的所以我們是不是對於這些"},{"start":8165.161,"end":8192.53,"text":"遠低於國際行情核價的這些健保品項我們能夠建立一個主動常態的監測機制能夠及早的預防短缺可能造成的衝擊那對於已經反映不敷成本的品項是不是在健保核價其實健保現在已經會針對這些部分做一些調整但是它的其實性跟效率性是不是也可以再想辦法能夠提升"},{"start":8193.47,"end":8222.509,"text":"那另外就是我們輸液的現在因為已經逐漸恢復比去年的情況好但是其實呢還是還是整體量仍然不足各醫院其實還是特別是可能是中小型的醫院可能常常會面臨就是因為他現在的量其實跟發生這個問題之前他還是有一些差距的所以還是各醫院在準備這個的部分還是有很多"},{"start":8224.151,"end":8242.985,"text":"那特別是現在所有各類醫護人員都短缺的情況之下呢其實這種供應上的壓力也造成這個各醫院的一些困擾那當然也是會影響這些工作人員留在這個醫療系統的醫院所以這部分也是希望我們主政單位能夠幫忙協助"},{"start":8245.609,"end":8269.729,"text":"那另外大家有提到這關於必要藥品清單的這個部分其實因為這個必要藥品清單我們當初是根據27-2條訂出來的那原來主要的目的是針對這個生產或者供應有餘的廠商可以提早通報可是後來因為各界對這個必要藥品清單的認知跟理解還有期待都不同"},{"start":8270.43,"end":8290.347,"text":"那其實臨床應用跟所謂的請廠商及早通報這是不同的目的所以其實外界因為對於這個清單有太多的期待甚至原始的定義定出來的目標其實都不太一樣所以這邊其實希望外界能多給予這個主政單位"},{"start":8291.628,"end":8320.298,"text":"多一些的時間因為目前現在這個清單是要跨部會因為現在連健保都在核架上都會依照這個清單做一些調整所以希望未來這個清單能夠兼顧大家的需求但是坦白講因為每個人的定義跟期待不一樣所以在解讀這個清單上會有很多我們沒有辦法預先想到的一些狀況因為大家知道WHO的"},{"start":8321.354,"end":8344.799,"text":"清單其實跟實際上真正臨床應用上在不同目的上要用的清單其實它是完全不一樣的所以這個部分希望外界要多一些的理解那另外是希望能夠運用AI或者資料庫的管理建立藥品庫存的預警機制因為現在AI很發達所以這些藥品供應狀態的資料庫"},{"start":8347.748,"end":8376.638,"text":"如果我們能夠常態的預先監督分析這個短缺可能的因素然後用這些因素找到及早能夠介入處理當然廠商因為基於商業的關係其實他們法規上要通報的他們會通報但是很多他們也是拖到最後一刻因為怕影響他的市場戰略所以這個通報上還是有一些問題所以是不是有一些主動監控的機制可以介入"},{"start":8377.378,"end":8392.79,"text":"那這些如果它變成一個常態的一個做法也許在未來我們在處理這個藥品供應會更主動更提前找到問題那另外一個部分就跟各位報告關於戰備庫存計畫那戰備庫存計畫這三年其實我們在這個計畫主持人是國防學院李宇勳教授他其實每週都為了這個計畫開會非常認真的在處理所以在"},{"start":8404.378,"end":8432.169,"text":"盤點全國這個戰備的品項還有相關替代品甚至未來應用都有已經有很好的規劃了但是其實還是有一些挑戰那第一個呢我們知道現在這個目前要求209家這個動員醫院儲存的品項是還是十幾年前的版本就是那25項那目前其實已經有一個新的版本出來就是關於這個藥品大概有55項醫療器材有100幾項"},{"start":8433.53,"end":8451.916,"text":"那也就是說我們在過去定義的這個品項跟現在的需求其實已經有出入了所以我們怎麼樣快速的能夠依照現在的需求來準備這些品項我想這是非常重要而不是還是沿用十幾年前的那個要的這個庫儲清單"},{"start":8454.497,"end":8478.662,"text":"那另外呢就是目前這個災難應變期間相關平台協助醫療量能這些都已經有建立了但是在藥品跟醫材儲備的層面呢包括庫存數據替代品建議跟臨床使用回饋資訊都還沒有納入我們整體整備的這個架構裡面所以這個建議可以及早思考能夠"},{"start":8479.963,"end":8502.533,"text":"能夠列入那另外還有部分的儲備院所的反應呢現在儲備清單的部分品項使用率偏低就是剛才前面也有先進提到就是這個浪費的部分那在實務執行的時候也缺乏一些彈性的指引跟配套那這個是目前的問題所以我們有以下四點建議"},{"start":8504.079,"end":8522.747,"text":"那第一個就是要立即應該要依照現在的環境災難還有戰爭形態需求逐步更新現有庫存的品項不是人才採用將近20年前的版本而且這個機制呢應該要有一個常態建立組織單位來做更新"},{"start":8524.315,"end":8539.579,"text":"那另外有關這個特殊戰備品就是之前有這個10萬傷患的這種做法不應該只有公立醫院四大體系應該要涵蓋更多的醫療院所因為我們知道在暫時的時候當真的發生狀況"},{"start":8542.32,"end":8554.253,"text":"這四大公立醫院體系也未必能及時的供應到必要的醫院所以這個應該是更擴散開來的一個準備的方式"},{"start":8555.424,"end":8578.119,"text":"那這樣子才能夠真的在暫時的時候可以發揮這個即時供應的效果而且也可以減輕平時庫儲的浪費因為我們常常有一些品項在單一醫院他的庫存量可能是五年的以上的臨床使用量所以他等於是你預期做這樣的準備就是準備要把那個藥報廢因為他一定是過期的只要沒有發生狀況所以"},{"start":8579.74,"end":8608.179,"text":"所以這個部分是建議可以做一些調整那能夠採取這個滾動式分階段方式來優化這個儲備制度那也許也可以從中重度的急救責任醫院來優先實施那另外就是希望能嚴以建立這個倉儲的資訊整合跟資源調度的機制那未來也可以把這個納入這個災難應變指揮體系能夠及時促進資源掌握還有加速調度"},{"start":8609.912,"end":8625.812,"text":"那第四點就是希望能夠建立儲備品項的操作的參考指引因為這些儲備品項決定以後呢還是要讓臨床第一線的人知道要怎麼處理包括當這個品項短缺的時候它的替代品"},{"start":8626.633,"end":8646.862,"text":"是什麼建議那這個都必須要跟第一線的這些臨床的經驗能夠結合來提升這個我們執行端的可行性跟一致性好謝謝這是以上我們臨床學會的建議好謝謝康理事長那接續我們請臺灣製藥工業同業工業理事長黃榮蘭理事長"},{"start":8662.065,"end":8683.457,"text":"主席、各位委員還有各位今天來參與的一些嘉賓我現在從剛剛聽到現在都是一些關於這些數據的討論學名藥的問題那這一些專家都已經贅述了很多我就不再重新講了我今天所講的就是以製藥這個環節來討論這個藥品供應鏈的問題"},{"start":8688.444,"end":8708.204,"text":"因為在我們台灣政府實施PCCMP還有IQ3嚴肅不存物的一個規範了以後他們講台灣製藥界受到了很多衝擊但是這個制度好不好是很好但是我們在台灣的教育界他沒有"},{"start":8709.085,"end":8722.291,"text":"把這種人才都培養出來這些製藥人才坦白講我前幾次有跟教育部長也曾經開過會我曾經問了我們的教育體系有沒有幫製藥界"},{"start":8724.909,"end":8743.514,"text":"培養一些製藥人才因為製藥界在藥廠不只需要是藥學習他的檢驗科系現在因為PCMP IHH這一些都是很專業的一個檢驗不是用以前的所謂的化工"},{"start":8745.235,"end":8759.45,"text":"畢業的他們就可以做的所以說這一些我們也是希望說政府你可以在交易體系方面多做一些琢磨還有說政府對業者提出"},{"start":8760.39,"end":8778.313,"text":"不缺藥的對象 這我們工會也曾經接受過但對象是有的 但是怎麼解決 沒有辦法曾經以前在原廠藥要退出的時候他要我們的國產藥廠因為原廠藥退出只能靠國產藥"},{"start":8779.494,"end":8807.723,"text":"那靠國產藥你要加強生產他們講這藥品是一個商業行為它當時是也是有某種因素大部分也是商業因素他們要推出因為健保藥太低了所以說國產藥它一生產它進口藥又來了那我們的醫院系統他們有延長藥就一定用延長藥就把那個學名藥就品出好幾家藥廠庫存品一大堆一庫五類"},{"start":8808.604,"end":8828.375,"text":"所以說現在變成了政府說你這個藥品你要怎麼報證供應即使已知藥界我們的看法到時候再說吧因為怎麼樣呢因為現在原料原料還有標準品我們再跟人家買原料我們台灣規模"},{"start":8830.476,"end":8838.592,"text":"經濟規模這麼小人口數這麼少其實我們最難的是我們要找一個原料找到了以後人家原廠開發的你要幾公噸"},{"start":8842.779,"end":8862.634,"text":"一個要含量幾毫克,要幾公噸,我們台灣可以吃掉幾公噸嗎?我舉個例,像我們有一個精華塞,氧化鋅,它是一種皮膚科用藥,坦白講,要找到Z字號的原料,這世界真的很難找,但是找到以後,他問我要幾公噸?"},{"start":8864.696,"end":8893.295,"text":"我一下子慌了我一年頂多用兩三百公斤最多啦但是報價也是我用了四百公斤進口它也是以一公噸的價錢報給我所以說原料藥它已經都上升到真的不是我們廠商可以去平衡的但是我們的健保還是死守著你就是這麼一點那造成了我們廠商會把這個藥品就推出市場"},{"start":8894.655,"end":8917.621,"text":"那在這個方向我們也是希望說政府要重視這一點因為現在的藥政法規真的是太嚴了我們也是希望說可以把真的要求好的品質但是要符合我們台灣的現狀我們不要把我們的制度都搞像全世界最高級但是我們的藥價沒有最高級"},{"start":8923.544,"end":8952.623,"text":"因為台灣都私營企業沒有人可以做得出來這是現在我在工會裡面每一次會員一提到的真的在這個藥事法的修訂各方面真的我們也希望說主管單位可以跟我們研究一下怎麼樣讓品質好又可以繼續生產這才是重要因為大家現在講如果藥品供應院再怎麼樣我狠心的問一下"},{"start":8953.777,"end":8973.951,"text":"如果中國來圍台灣島,坦白講要一個禮拜,原料要百分之九十都是國外的怎麼去處理,至少我們在我們的市場,我們在島內至少我們有儲存一些藥物,因為你們可能不知道製藥的難度在哪裡,我一個煮原料"},{"start":8975.63,"end":9004.111,"text":"某一家A廠原料他不賣給我他併廠了他改地址了我要找B廠的同樣的主原料我要重新來整個檢驗數據都要重新來這真的要恢復到生產至少要一年半到三年時間你說這市場會不會缺藥那一定會缺藥那缺藥了以後市場從坦白講兩三年級就開始在缺藥了一直缺了只是你們"},{"start":9004.972,"end":9016.122,"text":"因為政府單位所看到是健保署的數據健保署的數據是哪裡是健保用價量來看這個是多少其實40%的診所"},{"start":9019.856,"end":9039.333,"text":"藥局它是人民生活必需它要用的一些藥物它在缺真的到時候找到這一種方面的缺藥擴大的時候因為這些藥局的藥都是一些傳統的一些老藥傳統老藥找不到標準品你就不要做了你就撤銷了"},{"start":9041.294,"end":9062.75,"text":"傳統老藥找他現在檢驗規格的提升要最新版本的檢驗規格你跟不上來你的人員技術不行你的儀器不夠你就退出這個市場對不對就像我簡單舉個例就像個Cotine這個糖漿對不對政府因為是"},{"start":9066.226,"end":9088.469,"text":"麻醉處跟外面標過今天你標不到以前美國的那一家你標到荷蘭的回來要我們藥廠新的規矩新的檢驗技術以前美國要驗五個標準標準品那荷蘭的要六個藥廠一定要驗十一個才能通過"},{"start":9089.912,"end":9113.733,"text":"哪有這麼多的人力物力這些都是重複的檢驗還有剛剛有學者講到了一點就是這個效期的問題原料要效期好像10年可能他有點誤解原料要沒有效期10年我們原料要進口是用延長原標籤他寫多少就多少以前我們還在"},{"start":9115.231,"end":9136.889,"text":"標準的範圍之內 合格的範圍之內 我們還可以再延期現在的PCDMP完全沒有再延期坦白講每年藥廠 它竟然沒有用完都是在丟掉都要丟掉 造成很多的浪費這是真的是製藥業的一個困境我希望說政府多多重視我們的製藥產業因為全台灣"},{"start":9139.111,"end":9154.232,"text":"現在製藥產業從以前的五六百家GMP實施以前到現在剩下113家那真正在做製劑的他們講六七十家已經少了現在你們可能很少看到說"},{"start":9156.665,"end":9185.218,"text":"藥局在關門 其實台灣沒人藥廠關門的多喔 真的跟以前都不一樣所以這個產業如果真的有一天消失在台灣我們到底怎麼樣要講這個什麼藥品供應 連什麼都別講連最基本的止痛藥都沒有了 你要怎麼辦這些藥就像剛剛學者講 大部分都是中國進口的你藥能不能用 因為沒有辦法 中國它的抗生素"},{"start":9185.851,"end":9195.815,"text":"它佔了全世界70%,它是生產量,連美國都要靠它所以說我們應該怎麼樣去把自己國內的產業面把它建好,謝謝謝謝黃理事長,這很專業的,所以都沒第一次聽到不過我有看一個報導"},{"start":9211.542,"end":9239.654,"text":"他說大陸如果把原料要第一代第二代甚至一些第三代抗生素的原料不賣給美國的話美國每天會感染症死亡的人會有五千人這個省下機關署我們國民理事給我回答一下真的還假的我不知道這個我看到的所以提出來好再來我們請黃啟嘉理事長"},{"start":9244.78,"end":9273.219,"text":"主席還有在場的所有的醫藥的先進 大家好我發言分了兩部分第一部分是有關我們討論提綱裡頭有關法規的部分修法的部分醫療公會全國聯合會有法規委員會法規委員會的召委是吳欣喜醫師在他的組織下我們對這三項有關緊急醫療救護法第十二條的修正藥事法二十七之二四十八之二的修正我們是正向"},{"start":9274.499,"end":9286.706,"text":"這也表達支持的意思那第二個我想今天談韌性醫療就是醫療資源自主法我們在想有哪一個國家永遠不會缺戰鬥機"},{"start":9288.564,"end":9310.035,"text":"叫做美國因為戰鬥機都他製造還外銷到全世界各國去換言之如果你自己是能夠製造而且還可以外銷的話你就不會有這個資源的匱乏所以醫療資源的自主化對於韌性來講是根本的問題那其實我們台灣有一個最大的制度叫做健保健保其實它是一個"},{"start":9312.237,"end":9338.67,"text":"機會但是也是一個阻礙為什麼說是一個機會呢因為我們有健保的資料庫那個資料庫如果妥善運用我們比全世界其他國家更能夠了解我們的醫療資源的使用跟分配所以我們對藥品的監控是非常容易的但是它也是一個障礙為什麼是一個障礙呢因為健保本身它的資源有限又是一個總額制度所以今天任何一個藥品你要提高的話就會擠壓到其他的醫療資源的使用"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9366.95,"text":"所以我們今天講我們明知道這個藥品可能不敷成本可是我就不敢幫你提高價格因為一提高價格那其他勞務部分的支付標準要不要提高那就變成我們是在一個賽局的困境裡頭所以如何讓健保成為我們的機會而不要成為我們的障礙這是我們大家要去思考的問題那其實對於藥品要不要缺乏有健保的幫忙我們對於供應鏈的監控會更好而且現在可以把AI導入"},{"start":9368.251,"end":9386.385,"text":"那當然我剛剛也非常支持前面有先進講的除了藥品以外醫材要一起討論甚至整個醫療資源的分配包括設備也要一起討論不是只有藥品而已其實在急救的時候藥品固然重要但是其他的設備跟醫材的重要性一點都不輸給藥品所以要討論要一起討論"},{"start":9388.342,"end":9409.749,"text":"那當然最好我們台灣能夠成為一個醫療資源的生產中心那能夠把海外市場開拓利用海外市場來支持我們的體系那我們台灣會更安全這就是一個理想但是也許要達到這個地步的時候是有困難的因為我們不可能把台灣這麼小資源也很有限我們能力也有限所以我們應該可以挑重點"},{"start":9410.809,"end":9426.997,"text":"某幾項藥品或某幾項設備某幾項醫材成為我們的亮點然後我們就做那些那到時候我們資源萬一有問題的時候可以跟其他國家做資源的交換這也是一個方法我不要全面的去包山包海但是我關鍵的東西我要能夠製造"},{"start":9429.161,"end":9445.495,"text":"這個對我們台灣的安全是有幫忙的那再來剛剛其實有關緊急醫療救護法12條要講的就是願計的傳送這個很重要但是我這邊也強調一點到了戰爭的時候台灣有一個很好的特色就是台灣的診所非常多"},{"start":9446.482,"end":9464.057,"text":"如果強化診所的急症照護能力跟緊急藥品的供應也很重要因為路都斷了到處都是殘垣段就是這個建築物都倒塌了那請問車子可能不會動啊那究竟就是診所醫師要出來照顧因為他站在各地嘛"},{"start":9465.474,"end":9481.594,"text":"你路斷了 連可能救護車都開不過去了那這個時候如果真的要緊急照護的話診所醫師強化他的緊急照護能力是非常重要的那我們醫事公會全國聯合會未來會舉辦對於診所的急救重症的訓練再加強"},{"start":9484.728,"end":9510.513,"text":"讓診所醫師能夠替我們醫院裡頭的急診用色經分離讓我們急診不要這麼全部塞在醫院裡頭因為醫院真的是要看更高階的一個急重症而不是一開初級的急重症就往醫院就送了這樣會造成我們醫院資源的匱乏所以未來醫師公會全國聯合會在這一塊人員的教育訓練上會在多所著魔讓我們一起努力好 謝謝"},{"start":9514.893,"end":9519.257,"text":"整首要會包紮會縫合 市長這可能要喔這個是很嚴肅的問題來 接續我們請王振旭委員"},{"start":9537.514,"end":9552.591,"text":"謝謝我們召委主席今天的安排這個公聽會我不知道大家這個對整體的過程感受如何我自己真的很感謝我們所有在場的專家學者提出這麼多的建言"},{"start":9554.153,"end":9574.862,"text":"因為這個任性國家醫療整備計畫是四年期剛剛次長也有跟大家做了報告今年是第二年我們也看到113年已經有執行了一些成果大家可以從這個書面資料看得非常的清楚114年的工作項目也都已經羅列得非常的完整"},{"start":9576.053,"end":9585.412,"text":"我現在想了解的是我們今天主席這麼精心的安排這樣的宮廷會那專家學者提供這麼多的建言"},{"start":9586.414,"end":9600.044,"text":"我們的四年結尾怎麼來調整如果根據這些專家學者的建言還有如果在整個處理過程裡面有辦法還是有需要繼續進化能夠達到當初賴總統所警覺到的我們必須要有這麼好的整備計畫那未來的三年裡面"},{"start":9610.891,"end":9626.048,"text":"包括今年有沒有需要再做調整那如果調整的話應該要往哪個方向去調整那我在國會裡面會持續來監督這些內容那也期待大家繼續提供建言給我們做參考"},{"start":9626.989,"end":9654.82,"text":"那我相信韌性是非常重要這個是大家可以理解而且是持續要去做準備的部分那我就針對兩三個重點也跟大家做報告那其實學民藥的部分一開始陳一芬理事長就告訴我們這個學民藥平常就要有的東西而且一定要台灣要自己準備好不然你賭到平常都不夠用"},{"start":9655.76,"end":9683.331,"text":"碰到緊急狀況當然那個困境會更大這個部分我相信大家也都非常清楚所以困境有六點那邊就不再結束我們可以往下看怎麼樣去準備這個有關於藥品韌性的發展的建議我們繼續往下看相關的再往下再來再來再往下再往下這個流打挑戰"},{"start":9684.331,"end":9701.048,"text":"那針對這部分呢 大家其實都講得非常清楚就是要強化資源的投入 納入這個韌性特別條例跟預算那這博文其實4100億的這個預算裡面我們辦公室也試著希望能夠再加強有關於除了"},{"start":9704.431,"end":9723.301,"text":"200億的健保的相關資源的投入以外那針對健康尤其是在醫藥的部分能不能夠也有機會納為這個4100億的預算的一部分那這部分基本上就是希望能夠提供給我們的這個衛福部有一些彈性"},{"start":9724.522,"end":9740.737,"text":"把這個部分也可以納進來那其他包括關鍵藥品跟原料要清單等等大家都已經講得非常清楚最後一項就是國家整體戰略規劃跟長期的資源挹注這個今天的這個整個公聽會其實重點都是"},{"start":9741.698,"end":9761.126,"text":"在這個地方那當然最重要是要跨部會這個的確不是衛福部要把所有的重責大任都承擔起來一定要大家互相來幫忙互相來過好幾個月讓他能夠直接執行不過還有兩個部分沒有提到我們往下看就知道疫苗"},{"start":9762.427,"end":9773.625,"text":"當然疫苗是不是屬於這個韌性計畫裡面的一環我認為非常的重要所以疫苗的部分呢台灣可能有一些自己特殊的狀況需要針對於國產的疫苗也要能夠適度的"},{"start":9777.35,"end":9794.652,"text":"除了在經費的使用的投入以外我們也希望它的研發可以針對台灣的這個特殊狀況做一些準備這是疫苗我們希望能夠大家對這個疫苗的了解跟在準備的韌性上也能夠提供相關的資源"},{"start":9797.352,"end":9820.588,"text":"那除了這個藥品醫材以外 疫苗還有就是血品製劑今天比較沒有提到血品製劑血品製劑我有跟我們的這個國醫局的蔡局長講了好幾次就是說台灣目前對於這個血品製劑有沒有一些比較好的準備方案"},{"start":9821.728,"end":9846.963,"text":"軍醫局如果真的面臨這樣未來在不管是特殊狀況包括大型的災難或者是戰爭的時候那這個學品製劑如何能夠有效的去從他的準備還有他的應用都能夠達到好的一個流程跟必要的一些戰備準備那他很有信心他說他們都準備好了所以大家不用擔心"},{"start":9848.564,"end":9876.345,"text":"大家將來在處理的時候可以信賴目前的準備當然我們也要去驗證它那面要驗證我們希望有機會多了解以後能夠把這個準備也做得更好那我們再往下看就是利用這個機會我們也知道其實113年那個時候並沒有川普有關於關稅的這些造成的影響就是我們自己本來就是在準備的功課"},{"start":9877.426,"end":9905.803,"text":"那剛好又有這個關稅的挑戰情形之下如果能夠化危機為轉機這是我們可以來面對的那這部分我相信等一下我的老師張宏仁老師可能也會做壓軸的報告因為這個選在這個張宏仁老師前面就是希望能夠把這機會在壓軸的部分請這個張宏仁老師給我們的一些建議還有一些指導"},{"start":9906.423,"end":9931.3,"text":"不過基本上建立本土產業鏈來這個整合進這個全球供應鏈的部分真的非常重要那剛剛也提到醫療的產業基本上應該要把它納入為這個經貿的戰略那要分散供應來源那講是很簡單可是剛剛也提到將署長針對這個區域供應鏈的想法我們也曾經討論到"},{"start":9933.41,"end":9958.368,"text":"有一些我們也知道其實現在原料要都依賴中國跟印度我們有沒有機會把我們的鄰近國家能夠跟他們一起來討論來整合理念相近國家也好或是民主制度國家也好比如說韓國日本或者是菲律賓南向的這些國家我們大家來分析一下"},{"start":9960.209,"end":9982.37,"text":"原料藥的製造基本上這是一個對環境衝擊非常大的一種狀況所以我們自己的假設以抗生素為例或者是以很重要的某一些的原料為例我們有沒有機會跟這些國家互相的交換哪一些國家準備A哪一些國家準備B哪一些國家準備C"},{"start":9983.251,"end":9999.847,"text":"那在這個準備這個原料料的過程裡面怎麼樣去評估對環境的衝擊這個A國家是不是在準備的時候他們的環境比較能夠容許這樣的環境衝擊然後在台灣當然我們需要經過很完整的"},{"start":10000.848,"end":10025.447,"text":"準備還有對環境的衝擊我們也希望能夠用高科技的方式來減少也要讓民眾知道為什麼原尿藥這麼難準備對環境的衝擊如何能夠得到民眾的支持也得到大家的共識那如果能夠透過這樣的區域整合的話對原尿藥我們就不會太依賴在某一些國家我們也期待這樣的模式這個是需要"},{"start":10026.407,"end":10040.582,"text":"納為一個經貿戰略的同時那也是一種對於醫藥的這個供應上的一個戰略的這種處置的需求所以我們很期待國家整體戰略規劃跟長期的資源的挹注都非常重要那這部分"},{"start":10042.043,"end":10067.931,"text":"當然這個特別條例的預算如果能夠成立的話相信對未來的資源的應用就會更有助益那很感謝今天的專家學姐提供給我們這麼多好的建議讓我未來在問政的時候可以針對大家所提供的意見也給我們的這個主管機關在未來執行上我們會持續的去掌握到各種的進度再度感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":10073.078,"end":10088.147,"text":"謝謝,謝謝,謝謝王委員特別條例,全力支持來,想不到齁,外賓、協助專家,最後一個張宏仁董事長這叫我感慨,這叫我感慨"},{"start":10097.711,"end":10120.576,"text":"主席各位先進剛剛大家都講很多了實在是也不知道要講什麼我就講一個重要的觀念就是韌性韌性是resilience那resilience有兩大component那一個component叫做search capacity"},{"start":10121.553,"end":10133.142,"text":"Resilience其實分平時跟暫時,我們今天可能大家講的平時跟暫時這個觀念還是要把它理一理平時的Resilience跟暫時的Resilience是非常不一樣的概念"},{"start":10134.332,"end":10161.206,"text":"那暫時我想這個我們羅一軍在這裡就是說防疫勢同作戰的時候那個surge capacity出來的時候大家就會開始亂所以他在講的就是突然間一個一個暴衝上來的capacity一個大災難突然間一個什麼東西過來然後很多很大量的傷亡有點像八仙塵暴這樣子的概念那我們怎麼去"},{"start":10161.866,"end":10186.371,"text":"用我們的系統去處理它的第二個概念叫做redundancyredundancy中文叫做冗餘冗就是冗源的冗,餘就是剩餘就是多redundancy的反面就是浪費所以剛剛也有先進在講就是說你今天要redundancy你才會有儲備"},{"start":10188.231,"end":10204.077,"text":"儲備本身就是一個浪費這個是很簡單的概念所以一個韌性的醫療體系要做到這一點它一定要有浪費我們的健保體系是全世界最沒有浪費的地方因為我們把大家壓到"},{"start":10206.118,"end":10231.639,"text":"就是說 駕動率是extreme就是駕動率 這個是指平常在operate但是以capacity來講 其實我們是有redundancy的如果我們去看這些中小型的醫院 其實它的站床率是很低的所以它本身就是一個reserve像我們很多藥廠 它的駕動率也是很低的所以它就是一個redundancy"},{"start":10232.399,"end":10259.904,"text":"所以redundancy那以藥品來講 大家也講很多我們在講清單 就是說平常的缺藥跟暫時的缺藥也是兩個不一樣的概念你不能夠用平常這一套去處理暫時因為暫時還跟你分什麼原廠藥 進口藥你有藥吃 你就沒辦法你缺的是血液 輸注液 各式各樣的輻尿如果你是糖尿病 你是要打胰島素型的"},{"start":10260.484,"end":10283.267,"text":"那你有餘導數就有餘導數,你沒有就沒有啊,你知道為什麼要替代你能替代就替代,你不能替代就不能替代所以他那個清單要問的是說,那什麼叫做most critical當我們國家進入一個緊急狀況,那我們要sustain三個月甚至現在是三年,那我們要儲備什麼?那其實比較容易儲備的東西都是原料啦"},{"start":10284.148,"end":10304.596,"text":"你說臨時要去製造原料那個也都是欠債公共你都有上游下游所以儲備原料比較沒有所謂的有效期限的問題那以TFDA來講TFDA應該跟業界跟學界好好的有一套就是說那在暫時的時候檢驗那麼多幹嘛要給我硬要做什麼因為我們平常檢驗是檢驗一堆"},{"start":10308.517,"end":10332.047,"text":"要保證這個品質是到達一點點risk都不能tolerate我舉個例子來講我們常常檢驗的東西是很minimum的致癌性嘛對不對所以我們去去說所以這個原料裡面絕對不能夠含什麼東西這一些跟暫時的時候你哪有時間再得癌症啊對不對你沒藥吃你說不定"},{"start":10334.428,"end":10362.813,"text":"所以暫時用什麼簡化的方法很快的讓我們的capacity可以用我們儲備的原料藥來營養這是兩件事情跟我們平常缺藥這是兩件事情那什麼東西我們有辦法製造什麼東西我們沒有辦法製造我們要做這個清單是很重要的因為食藥署在江蘇港來之前當時用的清單是WHO的essential drug list"},{"start":10363.973,"end":10378.899,"text":"這個是低收入國家在用的一個list它講的是平時它講的其實不是暫時所以我們應該把這個觀念比較弄清楚所以清單本身是學問我們專家都非常的多了所以簡單的講就是說"},{"start":10381.74,"end":10406.376,"text":"我們要因應的就是說我們需要有一些redundance那redundance要放在什麼地方以便有search capacity的時候我們可以因應那最有名的例子當然就是就是這個國防體系嘛軍醫體系裡面當然它都還有那種這個叫做野戰醫院"},{"start":10407.697,"end":10430.925,"text":"就是一旦來的時候他帳本一打開裡面就是一個臨時的operating theater所有的東西立刻就可以當急救使用那這種是另外一種儲備這個當然你只要看到大家在打仗的時候所有這些地方前線立刻要開醫院跟你平常在用的系統也是不太一樣所以所有的這些東西呢簡單的講"},{"start":10432.946,"end":10453.651,"text":"有當過兵的人就知道所有這些東西都寫在我們當兵時候叫做衛勤體系衛勤就是Health Logistics System就是後勤系統那你只要去把那一段因為我們在軍中讀的那一套就是美國人美國那一套把它翻譯過來的所以你只要把"},{"start":10454.952,"end":10471.901,"text":"請國防部把那一項拿出來再看一看你就知道美國人在做整備的時候是怎麼樣以上請大家參考 謝謝好 我們協助專家及委員都發言完畢那我們請行政機關做整體回應"},{"start":10479.451,"end":10483.393,"text":"你先說啦你先說啦謝謝主席也非常感謝我們今天所有的委員還有所有專家那也首先還是先肯定再一次也藉這個機會謝謝也感謝我們所有在場我們的各個合作的團隊專業團隊還有醫藥界的夥伴還有昭緯謝謝昭緯的安排"},{"start":10505.882,"end":10522.883,"text":"那也讓我們行政單位有機會知道就是說在這段時間我們跟各位的合作是沒有造成各位太大的負擔而且各位肯定我們可以繼續跟各位推動下去那剛剛也感謝藥界的夥伴跟我們提醒到了很多我們在目前的藥品政策或者是檢驗相關的這些議題"},{"start":10525.166,"end":10550.965,"text":"那衛福部會持續也持續的跟各位繼續在精進目前現有的計畫那再做一些更細緻的修正那剛剛其中我們很多的這個專家也提到說包含了原來藥物的藥品的一些制度以及現有在醫事相關整備上面基層的連結或基層這一邊那這個部分我們也正在規劃當中那也到時候在相關的這些計畫尤其是"},{"start":10551.765,"end":10564.07,"text":"任性以及我們的這個醫療任性準備的相關的預算還有計劃也麻煩大院這邊可以全力的給我們支持我們會繼續努力謝謝大家謝謝謝謝謝謝市長市長您剛剛要說要說嗎國民理事要說嗎我們請經濟部產發署來報告一下"},{"start":10580.31,"end":10583.101,"text":"沒有來了就要留紀錄 因為這個是完整的"},{"start":10589.347,"end":10612.408,"text":"主席各位那個業界先進還有衛福部還有各位長官大家好那產保署這邊說明一下兩件事情我們分兩個方向講第一個是台灣熱心醫療整備計畫這部分我們會再跟衛福部通力合作來完成整個計畫那第二個部分是剛剛藥品的部分我們剛剛有講說那個我們產保署在"},{"start":10613.289,"end":10640.041,"text":"協助藥品發展的時候包括有分幾個階段一個是通用所有的藥廠都是一樣我們那個我們的產業條例的那部分都會有投資抵檢的一些協助那另外的部分就是生技條例這邊對於那個新藥品新進行新技術的部分我們是希望有業界可以發展新的東西所以這個是兩個階段那第三個部分就剛剛大家有講到學名藥那部分學名藥部分其實我們也有發現說其實台灣的"},{"start":10641.121,"end":10641.161,"text":"來 再來請國花會"},{"start":10670.357,"end":10672.399,"text":"蘇專民委員接續財政部、內政部還有國防部,國防部好好報告"},{"start":10682.253,"end":10699.763,"text":"主席還有委員還有各位專家學者代表先生大家好那我們國安會是掌理國家發展政策的規劃協調審議跟資源相關的分配會來協助各部會推動主政的業務那衛福部主管醫療藥品的相關的一個主管業務為了"},{"start":10701.023,"end":10715.436,"text":"面臨不可抗力的天災或人為的災害建構台灣的韌性發展提到的相關政策計畫我們都會來統合協調協助那爭取必要的協助後續衛福部如果要修正這個韌性國家整備的醫療計畫我們也會來緊迫的來協處以上謝謝好謝謝那接續我們請財政部"},{"start":10725.936,"end":10740.741,"text":"沒有要報告 都免稅出去都加碼出去要退稅 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曹白映那國防部說明如下那本部配合這個全社會的一個防衛任性任性國家醫療整備計畫還有這個全民防衛動員準備法及藥品醫材儲備動員管制辦法等規定我們完成這個各國軍醫院的重要外商用的藥品醫材一個儲備的作業"},{"start":10866.024,"end":10882.104,"text":"那另外因應這個敵情的威脅為求快速反應及減少暫時第八類軍品一個運送的風險我們有規劃增強這個金門馬祖還有各作戰區一個戰備藥品一個囤儲的一個作業那以增加這個基層官兵暫時站上一個救護的一個量能"},{"start":10882.725,"end":10893.332,"text":"那另外暫時國軍衛情部隊一個藥品需求的矩增那本局所屬的三軍衛彩供應處它的囤儲量難以滿足所需那所有每年會跟這個民間的工廠實施這個軍需動員工廠一個轉換一個簽證作業"},{"start":10899.156,"end":10914.379,"text":"那透過這個工廠的一個協力生產戰傷救護的一個藥品醫材那遂行一個國軍域的醫療任務以維持這個戰力那114年度已經跟人人製藥等36家民間廠商完成簽約那意外在戰時的時候會生產這個軟帶補償注射劑等86項一個戰備藥品醫材一個作業儀"},{"start":10921.041,"end":10946.939,"text":"以應應這個暫時一個需求的部分那也感謝主席委員還有各位專家學者的支持以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝光部的報告 繼續來 我們做以下結論依據立法院職檢刑署法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者"},{"start":10947.959,"end":10974.381,"text":"宮廷會報告作為審查特定議案的參考我們會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料匯編成冊分送給本院的全體委員及今天與會的政府機關代表跟學者專家參與今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴的意見我今天學了很多本次宮廷會到處結束 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跟各位"},{"start":1950.443,"end":1974.642,"text":"這個跟委員會報告我們今天的程序是這樣先針對有新增提案的部分我們進行檢要提案說明提案說明之後我們今天只進行大體討論大家的桌上有大體討論的提綱請大家充分發表意見作為未來各黨團在內部整合以及主要討論之參考好那我們現在就開始進行新增審查法案之提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請林月琴委員進行提案說明林委員有請"},{"start":1988.393,"end":2007.568,"text":"好 仔細各位委員還有政府部門那根據統計截至去年9月30日全國中央跟地方政府規劃的社會住宅大概122,983戶那其中已經完成的有109,596戶規劃中大概有13,387戶那根據住宅法的規定經濟或社會弱勢者保留戶要佔總數的40%"},{"start":2017.416,"end":2036.816,"text":"這代表全國大概有49,193戶是為弱勢族群保留的這意味著有將近5萬戶的住宅呢實際上是對社會福利有高度需求者因此我們都很清楚的知道社會住宅政策不只是住宅政策更是社會福利政策"},{"start":2037.256,"end":2051.233,"text":"他同时要满足人民住得起的需求也要满足弱势者住进去受服务的需求所以当下社会福利进入社会住宅有三种法定方式一个是直接提供租任户的福利服务"},{"start":2052.657,"end":2068.309,"text":"社會設施進駐社會住宅的社區還有社會福利服務人員或團體定點的提供服務基於這些現況本席認為要明確的定義福利服務的為住宅法的立法宗旨"},{"start":2069.049,"end":2092.155,"text":"並且明確賦予中央跟地方的社會福利主管機關在本法中的義務跟角色所以具體的修法重點如下第一把福利服務納入立法目的確立社宅跟社福聯動的政策方向第二未來服務資源要投入到包租代管的弱勢家庭當中來彌補社會住宅量能不足也提高"},{"start":2092.847,"end":2115.972,"text":"我們的房東跟業者社會福利機構的參與意願第三中央主管機關要會同社會福利主管機關共同訂定社會住宅裡應設立哪些社福設施跟服務的內容規模補助方式並且社宅內的社會福利資源提供可結合民間資源辦理第四對當社會福利機構進駐"},{"start":2117.612,"end":2146.819,"text":"社宅并转租给弱势家庭的二代房东模式那相关的租金订定及再转租的对象租金规范要更明确才能够确实落实第五先说我们的政府调查不符基本居住标准家庭的查核范围避免占用在此本席请提出我们社会住宅部分条文的修正草案也敬请各位委员支持以上谢谢"},{"start":2148.665,"end":2151.366,"text":"主席 各位委員面對台灣當前嚴峻的少子化那高居不下的居住負擔跟"},{"start":2169.969,"end":2193.07,"text":"住宅安全風險那現行的住宅法已經難以因應社會發展與人民的期待所以這次我主題兩個法案共提一個法案分別針對基本居住水準規範社會住宅優先對象及住宅安全評估機制進行調整那希望能夠從制度面提升居住正義來具體回應人民"},{"start":2193.686,"end":2210.38,"text":"最關切的民生問題那首先是住宅法四條放寬社會住宅保留條件強化育兒家庭支持那我國2023年總生育率已經降到了0.87成為全球最低"},{"start":2211.181,"end":2239.983,"text":"那社會住宅制度確認將育有兩名以上未成年子女作為保留的對象顯然跟當前人口結構脫節也對初為人父母的家庭形成制度性的排除所以這個提案我們是放寬成育有未成年子女即可不再限制人數那麼參照德國等國經驗設宅申請並不設子女數門檻而是以家庭實際照顧負擔作為判斷依據"},{"start":2240.802,"end":2262.569,"text":"更符合公平性與政策誘因修正不僅可以提升政策涵蓋面也可以視為政府對年輕家庭婚育選擇的一個積極回應來打造更有感的生養友善環境另外是住宅法25條延長65歲以上社會住宅成租者之租賃與續租期限"},{"start":2265.205,"end":2292.715,"text":"及以收入作為社宅租金計價標準現行的社會住宅出租辦法規定租賃以及連續續租年限最長為12年那這對65歲以上長者而言可能因為年邁體衰搬遷困難面臨無法續租的不利處境那與老人福利法保障長者居住權之精神不符"},{"start":2293.28,"end":2321.867,"text":"所以我提案增訂規定明定對於高齡成租者應給予例外延長租期之彈性另外為落實國際可負擔住宅政策趨勢以及過去住宅法修法附帶決議社會住宅租金也應依成租者實際收入來計算以確保經濟弱勢家庭不會因為租金過高而無法負擔提升社會住宅制度的公平性及可行性"},{"start":2322.528,"end":2331.005,"text":"那第三是住宅法40條明確基本居住水準來提升弱勢家庭的居住品質住宅法第40條規定"},{"start":2333.516,"end":2352.267,"text":"所以要求中央主管機關訂定基本居住水準但對於具體指標例如居住面積衛生設備安全設備等等都沒有設明確的標準那導致實務上彈性執行彈性過大沒有辦法有效保障低收入戶以及弱勢族群的基本居住權"},{"start":2353.356,"end":2370.346,"text":"那在修正草案当中明定中央应将上述三大项纳入基本居住水准并规定每四年检视修正地方主管机关需依据该标准清查家户状况并定立辅导计划中央也应给予经费支持"},{"start":2370.906,"end":2383.725,"text":"此举不仅补足制度空缺也有助于建立以人为本的住宅政策住宅法第43条补强住宅的安全评估纳入外墙与防灾机制"},{"start":2384.502,"end":2402.239,"text":"都市化加劇跟極端氣候的影響近年來憑藉外牆剝落社區災害事故等事件也凸顯了住宅結構跟社區防災規劃重要性現行的住宅法第43條雖然要求這個住戶要建立住戶"},{"start":2403.039,"end":2427.229,"text":"性能評估制度但沒有涵蓋外牆安全跟社區防災等項目變成一個法治漏洞所以我們修法明定主管機關應該包含上述兩項的新評估標準強化對住宅新建者或者所有全能的要求此舉也將建立更全面的住宅風險防控機制避免災害發生後才補破網最後"},{"start":2427.731,"end":2456.421,"text":"住宅不僅是財產更是人權要面對高房價低生育及安全疑慮多重挑戰所以制度性調整刻不容緩本次的三個案子提出就是希望能夠透過立法確立公平可及安全的住宅政策架構那從社會底層開始實現真正的居住爭議以上謝謝羅志強委員提案說明下一位我們請王宏威委員提案說明"},{"start":2464.159,"end":2470.293,"text":"好謝謝主席我們各位委員還有我們在場的各位內政部官員"},{"start":2471.226,"end":2496.534,"text":"那個高房價問題一直是我們重大的問題大家希望追求居住正義但是呢我們的這個相關的打房政策一直沒有辦法有效的解決特別是我們弱勢團體他的租屋問題所以在社會住宅他保障弱勢團體那麼他保留了一定的比例去給這個經濟或社會弱勢那現行的住宅法規定是提供給經濟"},{"start":2497.754,"end":2518.505,"text":"或社會弱勢者比例是從最初的10%提高到40%但是事實上顯然是不足的而且我們弱勢族群在申請社宅的時候也面臨數量不夠甚至租金過高的問題使得社會住宅的數量遠遠不及滿足"},{"start":2520.726,"end":2534.762,"text":"弱勢族群他們的需求導致很多人是看得到吃不到根據內政部還有第三方的資料推估現在全台的租屋人口已經達到300萬人所以在這邊也插播一下"},{"start":2535.943,"end":2554.561,"text":"也希望我們內政部應該確實去執行有關於租屋補貼的事情不要因為想要政黨之間的惡鬥或者中央想要壓縮地方的相關的資金然後在房屋補助的部分來動"},{"start":2556.903,"end":2575.495,"text":"在这边我们还是要帮广大全国有300多万的租屋主要来做请命那另外呢在今年市场上主动投入这个包租贷款的住宅大概15万户那么但是呢在这些包租贷款的设宅的落实比例也达到56%"},{"start":2577.316,"end":2593.167,"text":"所以扩大社宅的这个弱势族群的比例居住权是有其必要性的所以本席呢在有关于我们这一次住宅法第四条的修正呢就是把"},{"start":2594.128,"end":2621.606,"text":"主管机关与民间新办的社宅需要至少能够将50%的社宅优先给经济或社会弱势者承租就是我刚才所说的就是过去虽然有提高但是显然不足应该要再把它提高那另外呢也提升育儿家庭的这个优待的条件把原来第四条的修正第四条草案是育有未成年子女两人以上呢"},{"start":2622.087,"end":2626.281,"text":"把它修改为育有未成年子女就可以符合这个"},{"start":2627.475,"end":2655.982,"text":"入住的條件優惠的條件那麼鼓勵生育降低申請門檻這也比較符合目前我們廣大的租屋族以及也符合我們政府掃紙化能夠改善掃紙化的一個國家的政策那麼今天修法是一個歷程也謝謝我們的內政委員會還有我們內政部關於大家一起來共同的來推動希望住宅法能夠盡快完成修正以上謝謝"},{"start":2659.218,"end":2660.639,"text":"今天我提出住宅法4-1條的提案說明"},{"start":2686.175,"end":2714.527,"text":"那因為城市的發展那有過去有非常多的這些我相信全國各縣市都有只有房屋的權利沒有土地的權利那也因為歷史的因素那我們希望可以藉由這個住宅法4-1條的提案可以讓縣市政府有機會可以安置這一些只有地上權而沒有土地權的這些住戶第一個"},{"start":2715.684,"end":2721.632,"text":"舊左營國中的住戶在左營勝利路上有一排住戶大約40多戶是1960年代遷居到蓮池談判地方稱為北寨頭農場北寨頭農場他只有"},{"start":2733.045,"end":2755.839,"text":"房屋權沒有土地產權如果這個地方未來化定為觀光發展特定專用區或者是有其他使用的墓地他們將面臨搬遷第二個在棕油的宿舍裡面他們也是一群只有地上權只有房屋沒有土地使用權的住戶"},{"start":2757.093,"end":2784.857,"text":"他們永遠不知道有一天政府或有一天中油公司對他們有什麼樣的想法他們永遠不知道他們的未來在哪裡最近有一個從實安居在左營即將要完工部長也即將要可能也會去現場他是左營一個857戶的社會住宅距離這兩個地方都非常的近那從實安居裡面其實也有"},{"start":2785.61,"end":2814.176,"text":"過去的眷村的拆遷戶他室居在這裡有一位80多歲的夫婦他們從過去在從實新村裡面有200多坪的自宅被拆遷到現在卑微的要申請大概20坪左右的房屋則從實安居我也希望未來的社宅是溫暖可以包容有這個案例從實安居也會變成社會社宅中重要的典範"},{"start":2815.376,"end":2830.403,"text":"在都市快速的成長那所有地方政府應該有權力提撥一部分的住宅為了城市發展而犧牲的民眾例如大陵浅村所以我這邊提案如果"},{"start":2831.4,"end":2860.875,"text":"原住宅被徵收或拆除因為政策變遷導致原定的補償安置方案無法落實的住戶主管機關應該提供社會住宅予以安置而且不受住宅法第四條第二項家庭總收入限制讓具資格的人可以入住社宅由地方主管機關視情況訂定受安置者認定標準以及最長的安置年限另外"},{"start":2861.485,"end":2886.502,"text":"我們也定定的為了防止不當的利益交換或核定入住資格的不得轉讓繼承確保公共資源可以最大化保障因為政策而受影響的民眾以上我的提案說明謝謝謝謝李博弈委員下一位我們請蘇曉慧委員進行提案說明蘇委員有請"},{"start":2899.119,"end":2914.72,"text":"建全台灣的租賃住宅市場提供國民有尊嚴的居住環境是我認為相當重要的價值也是政府積極努力的目標而為了達到這個目標現行住宅法針對公益出租人、社會住宅及租屋"},{"start":2915.18,"end":2943.521,"text":"租屋服务业等定有综合所得税免税额地价税及房屋税减免等规定可谓利益良善但查我国的租赁住宅市场的现状在不同地区住宅的租赁价格实际上有相当大的差异其中双北地区因物价及住宅租赁价格较为高昂现行住宅法有关免纳综合所得税额度一万五千元的规定显然无法有效涵盖所有租赁契约"},{"start":2944.221,"end":2965.735,"text":"以2023年的数据为例全国租赁住宅有效契约占整体的75.7%但台北市仅60.2%新北市更低才52.5%而已可见相关政策仍有精进空间因此本席原理据住宅法部分条文修正草案要求综合所得税"},{"start":2966.175,"end":2982.041,"text":"免稅額度應參採房屋所在地之相關住宅指標制定並調整本法其他相關的租稅優惠規定以提高社會加入提供可負擔的住宅及社會住宅的誘因也請各位同仁能夠支持謝謝蘇喬惠委員提案說明下一位我們請陳金輝委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3000.444,"end":3027.619,"text":"主席各位委員還有媒體先進大家早安大家好本席這次提出住宅法第四條的條文修正草案主要是希望我們能從制度面做出調整真正回應台灣當前少子化的國安挑戰我們都知道少子化的問題已經不是趨勢而是妥妥的現實根據內政部統計112年我國總生育率已經崩跌到0.87"},{"start":3029.64,"end":3055.096,"text":"我們今年一到五月每個月幾乎也生不到一萬的新生兒甚至是八千到九千幾乎是世界最低代表年輕世代對於婚育保持高度保留態度而在影響婚育意願諸多因素中經過許多的民意調查居住的負擔無疑是最核心也最迫切的一項沒有房大家完全不敢生養"},{"start":3056.176,"end":3075.138,"text":"現行住宅法第四條雖然有將育有未成年子女二人以上的家庭列為社會住宅保留比例的對象原本利益是要協助育兒還有鼓勵生育然而當整體生育率已遠低於世代的更替水準卻仍堅持兩名以上子女作為門檻"},{"start":3076.159,"end":3102.791,"text":"这样子的规定其实已经和现实脱节也限缩了政策的效果我们可以参考德国的做法根据德国联邦住房与都市发展部的规定只要家庭育有子女就可以作为社会住宅资格的考量条件并没有对子女的数量设下门槛他们看重的是家庭的实际负担而不是机械性的定出数字限制"},{"start":3103.591,"end":3124.713,"text":"這樣的彈性設計更能貼近家庭的需求也更具政策的包容性因此本席此次提案的重點就是將條文中二人以上的門檻放寬為育有未成年子女讓只育有一名子女的家庭也能受到社會住宅的支持來減輕年輕家庭的居住壓力"},{"start":3125.794,"end":3142.937,"text":"少子化目前是不分黨派朝野屬於這片土地這個國家的挑戰希望大家都能支持這樣子的提案讓我們用更具包容性的社會住宅制度共同打造年輕世代敢婚敢生敢養的社會環境謝謝好 謝謝陳基輝委員的提案說明最後我們請王美惠委員進行提案說明王美惠有請"},{"start":3161.246,"end":3163.567,"text":"主席 大家午安 大家好本席在這裏有提出住宅法第4條的提案說明裏面規定政府主管單位的新建的社會住宅提供一定的比例給社會最經濟和社會弱勢的家庭"},{"start":3185.2,"end":3187.502,"text":"但是我們常常聽到的就是台灣有很多隔代教養相關的新聞尤其重重的原因就是爸爸跟媽媽都沒有在所謂老舊未成年的經歷及後世輩的阿公阿嬤來請用"},{"start":3206.477,"end":3209.178,"text":"如果不行,他們所照顧的孩子是身心障礙者,阿公阿嬤負擔更加重。但是以我們現在的住宅法,在四條的規定,"},{"start":3222.262,"end":3227.647,"text":"必須有修正改觀這個古代教養的社會弱勢可能他會沒辦法去申請社會主宰的資格的問題尤其現行的第二項第七款所規定的身心障礙要要求省人"},{"start":3245.962,"end":3252.068,"text":"但是在阿孫孫子的時候男婢生的,但是他身心障礙者都沒有康復的時候,我認為現行的第二款、第五款所規定的特殊的情形的家庭要求"},{"start":3269.025,"end":3275.929,"text":"要阿公阿嬤沒套路才有辦法去申請但是在這個過程當中我們有看到這個家庭有非常辛苦但是阿公阿嬤他還沒滿65歲所以他有一點點套路但是他去申請就不符合所以本席提案就是說可以新增住宅第四"},{"start":3296.761,"end":3307.146,"text":"可以讓有未成年身心障礙的家庭可以給他們機會再交代教養的阿公阿嬤在帶小孩的時候可以給他們"},{"start":3318.41,"end":3328.933,"text":"去申請社會住宅的社會的弱勢的範圍中希望大家可以支持本省所提案我們不好的老人家也不好可以幫助的人讓這個社會的弱勢可以受到更好的幫助還可以減輕他們家庭的負擔以上"},{"start":3350.751,"end":3369.036,"text":"好 謝謝完美會委員的提案說明我們提案說明的部分到此告一段落那麼列席機關今天還有提出一些補充的書面報告我們請各位委員自行參閱我們同樣會刊登報告好 那提案條文昨日已經宣讀完畢那我們現在就開始進入大體討論"},{"start":3370.456,"end":3394.039,"text":"那今天我們有提供大體討論的提綱那我們就主點來做發言討論那要發言的委員我們就舉手那原則上我們就以舉手先後順序我們輪流發言這跟委員會報告我們大概每一個題目基本上大體討論的用意啦是要讓這個各政黨在回去做最後的版本整合的時候有更明確的方向這明確的方向之後未來我們要進到主條討論的時候"},{"start":3395.16,"end":3422.407,"text":"速度才會比較快要不然會因為這一部法案修正是很大幅度的修正如果沒有各自來做一些整合的話會比較辛苦所以今天我們就針對主題式的部分大家各個政黨的代表各個委員或提案委員可以發表意見我們在各個題目上我們也都會徵詢這個行政機關的意見我們就一次列入這個今天大體討論的會議記錄那用這個會議記錄來之後大家拿這個去做整合我們再進入到主條討論以上跟大家補充做一下說明"},{"start":3423.347,"end":3438.465,"text":"好那麼我們就開始吧今天到底討論的第一個大方向叫做要不要建制社會住宅登記平台相關的法條是第18條請問有關於社會住宅登記平台這件事情各位有沒有意見沒有都有共識嗎"},{"start":3445.114,"end":3455.478,"text":"真是太好了嘛好沒關係我們先請內政部說明一下好不好這個有關於社會住宅登記平台的一些做法跟大家對這個行政機關對法條的意見來有請這樣就針對這些主題大家先有一些初步方向意見就好不用到法條的細節沒有關係來吳署長報告還是六部長要請次來嗎好請吳署長"},{"start":3475.758,"end":3489.316,"text":"謝謝昭偉還有各位委員那首先我是不是先回答有關社宅登記平台這件事情那宋官所提出來的條文其實是希望能夠讓有意願要住社宅的這個民眾"},{"start":3490.257,"end":3514.322,"text":"那能夠提出他的意願跟想法那給政府作為這個評估社宅興建還有這個後續在社宅相關抽籤作業的一些參考那我們現在目前實務上的各縣市政府有社宅的大概就是雙北跟桃園台中高雄那他們目前縣市政府自己有做一個平台但是是給要"},{"start":3515.302,"end":3535.405,"text":"就手中有的這個社宅的這個部分來進行抽籤那並不會去主動去要提供住戶提供相關的資訊又或有意願者去提那所以這樣的提案內容其實就實務上來講我們中央政府目前自己也在做這個社宅的登記平台"},{"start":3536.052,"end":3549.822,"text":"但是社宅的登記平台大概預計在因為它會涉及到資料的借接會跟戶政、地政還有這個財稅單位去做借接所以它是實務上要進行抽籤所要用的一個抽籤的平台"},{"start":3550.54,"end":3565.91,"text":"但是如果說照這個提案的話反而是要民眾主動來表達他的意願去做的話那會相對有一個問題是說會讓民眾誤以為政府是要收集他的資訊因為我們一樣要比對他的身份資料"},{"start":3566.65,"end":3596.01,"text":"才能去了解他是否符合資格而不是一般民眾為符合資格就隨意來登記那這樣的話第一個也會有一個困擾是民眾可能會誤以為我們是在收集他的個人的一個醫院的一個部分第二個填寫了他未必代表他真的會過來這樣的數量一旦龐大的話對於政府真的要去落實執行這樣的一個政策也不是一個很容易分析的一個問題就他有點像願望清單"},{"start":3597.091,"end":3613.969,"text":"這只是我的願望但不代表我真的要去做的時候那這樣一個統計出來的數據對於政府真的要去做的時候是不是有實際上的幫助反而是現在中央在做這個平台我們未來當然中央完成這個抽籤的這個平台"},{"start":3615.21,"end":3632.778,"text":"完成以後民眾可以上來填寫那我們會確認他的資格以後讓他保有在抽籤方面上的他已經確認他的資格是符合的這樣實務上先來推行後續呢等中央跟地方逐步來借接平台以後這樣可能會"},{"start":3633.738,"end":3652.903,"text":"後續再來擴張那否則我們也會擔心這樣會讓民眾有疑慮是他在調查他們的資料這樣也不是一個很恰當的一個做法那所以這個部分也跟各位說明就讓我們逐步把抽籤的平台先確認然後跟地方政府連結以後再來進行是做這樣的一個報告好吳主席還有就這樣嗎"},{"start":3662.864,"end":3684.688,"text":"好 各位委員有想法嗎來 請署長會委員我本來是想說 署長報告了非常多針對委員提出的建制新平台新的登記平台的看法那要不要說一下說現在有的狀況是怎麼樣其實大部分的國民我覺得對現在的社會住宅登記"},{"start":3685.288,"end":3702.933,"text":"其實是已經還蠻習慣蠻接受的了大家運作也蠻好的你現在突然來一個新的制度齁而且只是等於是去許願而已啊又不是這個又不能到後面的嫁接這個其實這樣的狀況我覺得有點奇怪所以我剛剛想說請你多補充一點現行的好不過我回頭一看現在啊我們是要討論對啊而且而且當時而且報告主席現在主張18條要修改的人好像都不在這裡"},{"start":3714.915,"end":3738.166,"text":"對啊那這樣的話這樣的話我們討論是不是要不要再精簡一點沒關係委員我在我已經準備好了可是你不在啊你不在啊我說第18條啦大體討論因為如果今天是逐條的話那當然平安委員就要在場這是我知道大家比較在乎這樣的事情但大體討論就是方向我會掌控時間大家不用太擔心好不好那就請署長說明一下現行的狀況"},{"start":3739.769,"end":3763.284,"text":"現行就是地方政府各縣市自己有建那中央我們在國家租屋中心的這個部分呢也已經跟護證師、支扶師還有我們國土署一起來推動一個租屋中心設宅承租資格所需的資料欄位借接平台那這個部分呢在九月就會完成那我們也是第一階段完成這個平台以後"},{"start":3764.125,"end":3785.822,"text":"後續呢 隨著數量的擴張會跟地方政府再考慮長期雙方來借接那因為這都會涉及到個人資料的借接所以我們在這過程當中是會謹慎逐步的去完成不會去 也原則上不希望去朝向讓民眾去許願的這樣的一個方式這樣其實對民眾來講 對我們的作業來講都是 雙方都是一個困擾"},{"start":3787.967,"end":3791.43,"text":"好 謝謝署長來 歐美蕙委員主席 在這裡剛才署長說的我們聽起來跟聽的人 我覺得應該是沒有這個需要啦比較複雜的啦比較具體"},{"start":3804.302,"end":3809.049,"text":"對 跟古典的我們有在做這樣民眾會覺得很亂的啦我也覺得這條我是自己的主張 我覺得沒有需要以上"},{"start":3819.704,"end":3842.469,"text":"好 謝謝王美惠委員我還有好 那你們先講了還有黃婕委員請好 謝謝那因為其實今天討論的幾條啦18 19 20然後23 5247等等那我是在想說這些提綱我們要不要就都一併討論因為其實今天很多提案的委員我看也都沒有在現場那我們又沒有要進到主條討論那變成說我們現在其實這些大體討論好像"},{"start":3847.53,"end":3863.468,"text":"沒有辦法進行更實質的溝通就比較我覺得今天這樣這場會議會比較可惜啦就是如果連提案的委員都都沒有來這裡表達他們的意見的話然後我們又沒有要逐條所以我不太確定我們今天的大體討論可以取得什麼共識喔"},{"start":3864.429,"end":3887.756,"text":"那這個登記的平台當然其實我覺得就是像署長說的這樣只是說如果如果我們這個你們自己的這個審查的速度可以更快的話然後這屆的系統可以更好的話其實我們還是希望可以做得更好啦好 以上好 那換我提問題喔這雖然本席是主席但我一樣我對每一條我都非常有意見"},{"start":3889.523,"end":3917.312,"text":"第一個我要強調的是社財統一登記平台的部分基本上在你們百萬戶租家庭支持計畫裡面雖然是一個長期的施政計畫但裡面確實是有寫的第一個強化招租及營運機制你就解說要有護證、財稅跟弱勢的查詢平台目標當然是要有一個借階的狀況也就是各個身份、審查等等的要加速它的行政流程那裡面也有寫未來要建立統一招租平台跟營運管理系統"},{"start":3918.012,"end":3946.337,"text":"所以這本來就是政府要做的事嘛對不對那我現在比較擔心的狀況是這樣就是說你明明想要做這件事情比如說你明明就需要借接資料等等但你欠缺一個很明確的授權跟依據嘛你要依法辦事嘛所以我覺得在法條上面針對統一登記平台做一定的文字修正線下可以立刻強化你在建立所謂的借接資料你的正當性嘛這個我想大家都會支持這樣的一個方向那當然你可以講我們當然未來要有統一的平台這在內容上面大家可以做一些細緻的調整"},{"start":3947.737,"end":3970.809,"text":"所以我覺得其實某些層面18條的大方向來講其實反而共識是蠻高的就是說也許你們可以到最後堅持就是說不用修但是其實行政機關也要做那有些人認為要修但大家的共同方向其實都是要做嘛對不對我們就今天就其實大體討論就是這樣大家把各自的方向跟立場先做一下表達留下記錄好不好以上是本期的意見好請部長補充說明謝謝你"},{"start":3972.811,"end":3993.35,"text":"有關18條的部分我想大部分委員的用意都是很好目前要解決的問題第一個我們現在社宅的量不是很夠包括中央跟地方那現在有些地方比如說新北市它已經開放開始做社宅的登記平台那在中央來講因為這個新北市的社宅是新北市去蓋的我們如果去"},{"start":3994.071,"end":4016.021,"text":"介入跟他講說你審查多少要借資料給我們可能會在我們的行政管理上會出現一國多制包括現在相當多的直轄市大概都社宅會陸陸續續完成所以我們現在要設置一個登記平台然後是在中央的話可能有這方面的困擾就中央跟地方可能要自己分別設置這第一個"},{"start":4016.701,"end":4031.33,"text":"那第二個呢就是大家會覺得說我如果統一的話呢我可以解決譬如說申請戶的人呢他就不要重複他申請台北又申請新北又申請桃園可能到時候他就三支籤中籤比例高我想不至於發生這樣的狀況啦這是第一個那再來就是剛剛我們那個署長特別強調的部分"},{"start":4036.653,"end":4059.839,"text":"就是第一個個人資料在借接的過程當中很容易產生治安的問題因為我們這個資料是倒來倒去的不是這個資料是大量的倒而不是一戶一戶在倒的所以我會建議就是說未來如果要的話就是說讓我們有點時間去準備第一個我們要不要統一社宅登記平台它裡面的規範包括項目或者是說填的欄位都一樣只不過這個是中央管的這個是地方管的"},{"start":4064.68,"end":4084.331,"text":"但是我們現在還沒有跟地方政府做這方面的一個行政的討論那另外一個我們也在五月的時候跟四月的時候已經內部召開這個協調會議我們現在的國家住住中心就是剛剛所說的這個資料欄位的介接平台已經要做建制跟測試但是預計要九月底才會完成"},{"start":4085.652,"end":4105.527,"text":"為什麼要這樣就是像剛剛所說的現在的剛剛可能劉委員提到說我們現在百萬戶租屋家庭的借借計劃那個是申請租金補貼那比較簡單但是我們如果申請社宅的話社宅的房型地點位置你人口的組成有沒有未成年子女是不是特殊處遇的這個經濟弱勢戶或是社會戶那是非常複雜的狀況所以我們要把它弄的部分的話會變成我們的戶政財稅還有要跟社福的資料聯合都全部要處理清楚"},{"start":4115.795,"end":4143.684,"text":"所以是不是讓我們的住都中心先在九月底之後完成建制如果大家覺得說這樣的建制系統大家可以接受我們再跟地方政府來聯繫的時候呢設宅登記平台把它明文法制化可能會比較好因為你現在說應該來處理那應該處理那時間點如果不對或者到時候有些借街的時候出現這個治安的問題的話我們要臨時再改這個文字的修正又要再耗費一次三讀通過的這個立法的程序以上"},{"start":4144.81,"end":4158.232,"text":"好 謝謝 劉思芳部長的補充說明各位還有意見嗎好 那我們各方意見都表達完畢 好不好這題目就是社會住宅登記平台的部分我重複一下好不好 這我們"},{"start":4160.113,"end":4177.898,"text":"提案這邊的主張啦是希望就是說因為基本上這個其實符合政策方向然後也符合國際潮流所以說大家都希望可以把它法治化民文化那剛剛我們行政機關包含國土署包含內政部包含我們執政黨的委員就在想執政黨委員關心說有沒有必要一定要修法的方式來處理那我們行政機關有比較幾個顧慮第一個"},{"start":4180.999,"end":4202.945,"text":"大家來告知阿婆執政黨什麼黨啦就是在位啦 不要這樣說這樣啦 這樣就太感情啦我是要收束大家的意見啦好不好我也有意見啦 你剛剛講得不好意思喔我也有意見啦你說大家的意見是要法治化 並沒有啊今天提案的人都沒有來啊所以你必須要修正一下你的話啦不是 我剛剛"},{"start":4210.39,"end":4231.862,"text":"那我們到底你們這邊的意見到底是要還是不要呢這比較麻煩沒有沒有沒有大家的意見是這樣提案的委員都沒有來啦那我們的現在有現場有表現場有表達的委員的意見是說已經在做你並不需要把他入法啦好不然會亂啊那我們就林委員講的不一樣"},{"start":4233.143,"end":4248.634,"text":"在場的委員認為比較不需要入法嘛我的重點是強調行政單位的一些補充嘛第一個住都中心九月有一個建制計畫看要不要考慮一下那擔心中央地方的制度整合問題還有各自介接的部分希望大家再做思考可以嗎這個題目就這樣 OK"},{"start":4252.189,"end":4265.16,"text":"好 我們進到第二題INFO及如何以法律規範整體開發並同取得社會住宅的部分這相關條文是19條 20條 21條之一不好意思 主席 抱歉我們打岔一下主席 今天大體討論因為我們跟司法有聯繫啦是不是這個"},{"start":4277.697,"end":4293.03,"text":"照說不用照這樣一條一條走還是要照一二三四這樣走一二三四啊一二我只是講說跟哪幾條有相關如果要看的可以看啊你如果針對這個直接有想法直接講也可以好不好好請張宏祿召委"},{"start":4298.397,"end":4322.262,"text":"這個我覺得啦 我個人比較持保留的態度啦你以法律規範把它入法完全沒有彈性 完全沒有空間然後設宅在蓋的時候 中央也有蓋 地方也有蓋那你這樣都把它用得太死 我覺得不用我覺得這個國土署 你們的施行辦法或什麼的其實就可以達到了這個目的了"},{"start":4323.942,"end":4347.411,"text":"我覺得不要把它定得太死不然你地方政府沒有辦法去執行很多的東西而且地方政府的量能也沒那麼大我跟你講你如果這個不要再不是六都的話我跟你講你定著這個下去我跟你講完全都不能蓋了我覺得我們要好好的考量這一點所以我對這個我是反對謝謝 張宏祿委員這個還有其他委員有意見嗎"},{"start":4357.74,"end":4382.215,"text":"想問要用這樣子討論還是因為我覺得像我的第一條很重要是要先確定一個很基本的原則因為我們認為社會住宅本來就是針對於國外大概也都是還是以弱勢它事實上是社會福利的一環所以我第一條就有列上先把這一條先確立就加一個與福利服務這一塊可是現在就是說這樣的討論是不是"},{"start":4384.616,"end":4386.838,"text":"整個結構對我來講是有點亂的李柏惟李柏惟署長這個其實我在質詢的時候有講過這個入法跟沒有入法差別在哪裡你可以再重複一次舉台中為例"},{"start":4414.515,"end":4438.741,"text":"現在我們是不是已經在要求台中市政府要對於他的這些區亂徵收或者是勢力重劃那做出一些比例要求他有一些設宅的比例我說明一下那你入法之後他錢帳都不算啊你現在不是正在正在要求台中市政府做嗎台中市政府吼拿到這個租金補貼的呃量最多"},{"start":4440.166,"end":4466.964,"text":"租府的戶數最多然後他設宅的比例又低那你現在國土署正在做什麼辦法讓他可以也照顧到這些設宅的用地入法之後會有什麼影響署長請你說明一下好 說明一下第一個就是說因為現階段我們要去推行這一個也是著眼在整開地區有些發展他已經進行中的或者是正在進行的"},{"start":4467.642,"end":4494.476,"text":"那進行中的它已經是屬於相對周圍發展起來了其實它社宅的需求量也出現了那可是這個時候我們是用這個行政協商去跟台中市政府談這一個你現在不管是你室友的或是國友的是不是可以讓我開始總併起來做社會住宅那這透過行政協商因為畢竟它配低都已經配完成了"},{"start":4495.134,"end":4516.969,"text":"那今天修法了以後會變成說我們是以這個法令為一刀切的話那當然就會產生那在修法之前已經配地完成了那就沒有辦法再去討論了就配地完成了那對於很多發展相對還不錯了但是我們一樣有蓋設宅空間的這個地區可能會喪失一些機會了那第二個就是說"},{"start":4518.612,"end":4537.611,"text":"因為做整開地區它是全國各地都會有的現象那很可能有些是特定的產業的目的去做的那但是我們如果強制去所有的整開地區去做那我們很可能有些整開地區它其實是不需要設宅或是它根本就是以產業為主在開發的"},{"start":4538.812,"end":4558.005,"text":"那他也不會需要設宅那結果我們又法律強制規定他一定要拿一部分出來做設宅其實那也會造成土地資源上的一個浪費所以我們現在的做法是在行政的流程當中譬如說他這個案子在都市計畫的審議當中我們直接就在都委會的過程就"},{"start":4558.866,"end":4579.64,"text":"先檢視他有沒有畫社宅的必要性那有的話跟縣市政府直接談那這樣的話在都市教育的流程裡面直接確認他的數量確認他的區位那這樣的話後續就可以接續不管是中央或地方他接續去做社宅的規劃這是現在最完整的"},{"start":4580.521,"end":4603.231,"text":"已經進行配地或是配地完整的那我們就是用行政協商的方式去跟地方政府去溝通那目前來講各地方政府在配合度上都還不錯那所以我們建議是不需要修法讓我們用這個方法繼續去做這樣的話反而在取得社宅土地的全面性上會比較好那做這樣的一個補充好 各位委員還有沒有什麼意見要補充的"},{"start":4611.653,"end":4638.142,"text":"那個沒有了黃建華委員請我要以正式聽一下剛剛博弈委員說我們台中市社宅蓋的是最少沒有我們台中市社宅自己興建一萬多或是全國排名第二僅次於台北市我修正一下這個數字好謝謝那個講一下比例啦講一下比例我修正一下社宅比例跟他的租補的比例啦台中市是明顯不足了"},{"start":4640.649,"end":4652.114,"text":"好其實大家都各自用有努力有方法啦好不好但是沒關係我們還是針對今天的主題來做討論欸你們這個用地取得"},{"start":4653.703,"end":4671.529,"text":"最近我們設宅的這個計畫一直都沒有核定難道不是跟用地取得跟土地的價格等等有一定的關係嗎我們是不是請吳署長說明一下因為現在的設宅是這樣因為我們現在最近在修正一些方式就是說過去還要用直接大量購地去"},{"start":4674.68,"end":4697.419,"text":"興建先購地完再去興建那當然有些過去是用國有地直接撥用那這樣的做法其實撥用的速度會比較快但是只要涉及到要購地它中間的行政程序其實都還蠻久的那第二個我們在編列相關的舉債的話那增加的速度會太快所以政院有找我們談叫做多元取得"},{"start":4697.999,"end":4711.313,"text":"那多元取得裡面就會包含我們會以這個財務的自償性的一個可能性在定義出培養多的方法那其實這些方法目前也有在用比如說用都更分回的有些走都更分回"},{"start":4712.062,"end":4736.117,"text":"有些可以採出餐的方式來進行那有些跟國營事業也可以用合作開發的方式來進行所以政院是要我們除了原有的方法以外多提出其他幾種方案那這樣的話可以針對不同地區不同特性的土地那他未來蓋社宅的機會跟方式來重新做定義所以他不是沒有"},{"start":4736.637,"end":4745.647,"text":"不是沒有說不是沒有說不往前走而是我們會找出更多的方法讓這個社宅的這一個興建更全面那財務更穩健好 謝謝 請劉思邦部長補充"},{"start":4752.574,"end":4770.494,"text":"其實我們昨天在開會的時候我們有跟委員報告就是未來的社宅的方向我們現在要考量的是多元取得那多元取得的方式不一定是多元取得公共的設施的用地或是多元取得公家的土地"},{"start":4770.954,"end":4789.033,"text":"因為不管你用什麼樣的方式取得公家的土地然後公家又以國家住宿中心或是中央或地方政府用這個公務預算來蓋新的社宅的時候呢它所累積出來的財務槓桿是非常的驚人的我們曾經估算一下就是未來如果以十幾萬戶這樣子下去的話"},{"start":4791.175,"end":4818.714,"text":"恐怕他所累積所需要的經費會高達五千億甚至是一兆以上那這個恐怕就不是社宅我們當時要做不管是作為社會福利或是要照顧弱勢或是照顧年輕人所以現在行政要求內政部跟相關的部會包括財政部或是包括其他的部會共同來思考一下叫多元取得什麼叫多元取得現在民間機關裡面或者是民間所興建的這個房子其實有很多是空屋"},{"start":4819.955,"end":4836.875,"text":"那這些空屋呢在很多都是屬於這個非常優秀的這個生活圈的這個區域範圍內那為什麼他不願意釋放出來譬如說利用包租代管的方式或是利用錢的方式釋放出來給有社宅需求的尤其是年輕人為主"},{"start":4837.916,"end":4862.006,"text":"那這個部分的話就變成說蓋好房子還有取得土地呢都不需要經過中央包括什麼用地取得然後要爭取預算不管你是基金預算或是公務預算所以這個部分呢我們正在大規模的做一下所有的盤整包括裡面的財務槓桿或是財稅甚至包括稅收的部分看能不能未來呢就可以散落到各地也許一棟大樓裡面它的空屋是有20戶30戶"},{"start":4863.326,"end":4878.019,"text":"可是二十戶三十戶提供給弱勢來居住的話他也免於以後未來的大型的社會住宅蓋好以後就被標籤化裡面都是弱勢那大家都知道這個弱勢的族群住在一個同樣的社宅裡面住了二十年三十年以後"},{"start":4878.439,"end":4898.864,"text":"那個地方可能就變成在社會治安的一個比較大的隱憂那所以這樣的部分的話我們如果直接把它放到19、20條裡面看起來也沒有什麼不對但是它就會用這樣法律直接入法的方式要求中央跟地方政府用這樣子的一個方式取得社宅用地未來我們還是要看我們的財源從哪裡來"},{"start":4902.265,"end":4917.335,"text":"取得土地的財源然後要蓋社宅的財源那這個部分呢就會變成不夠的完整性所以我們比較希望說未來呢不管是用什麼方式取得社宅能不能是多元取得來代替多元興建"},{"start":4918.395,"end":4933.526,"text":"那既然是多元取得來代替多元新政的話多元取得可以公部門跟私的這個民間團體一起合作甚至有些像保險團體也願意加入的話讓我們有多一點的空間跟他們來做思考那這樣子就不會說緊"},{"start":4934.747,"end":4955.894,"text":"局限於在六都為主那其他非六都的部分呢也有這個空間所以我們認為現在的修法呢如果放到裡面去我們看了不管是十九二十條的話它裡面寫的文字都沒有錯可是會太偏頗到是多元取得社宅用地而不是多元取得社宅不一樣喔謝謝好 謝謝還有沒有委員要補充的"},{"start":4961.687,"end":4987.7,"text":"我只會問幾個簡單的問題啦然後也回應一下嘛就是說就是說署長剛剛有提一個蠻好的概念啦就是說會不會入法之後變所有的整開包含比如說產專區的開發等等你也要預留用地其實我覺得在條文上有修正像我自己的條文就有講只有住宅區啦就僅限定住宅區所以我覺得這個東西在修法技術上是可以解決的那我剛剛聽不管是部長也好或者署長也好結果其實你們是比較擔心就是說社宅蓋太多因為自償的問題然後造成財務負擔是這樣的意思嗎我問一下可以"},{"start":4997.37,"end":5012.907,"text":"對我了解你們講的多元取得意思就是用各種方法這個本席覺得很好啊我覺得沒有問題但我的意思是說如果入法的話因為當初大家去提這個這個去取得土地的這樣子的一個整開的這樣子的一個修法其實就是擔心土地價格"},{"start":5014.107,"end":5039.97,"text":"很高這件事情 阻卻了社宅用地的取得的進度嘛那阻卻之後其實就會變相的影響社會住宅的建設進度嘛 對不對那我覺得這件事情跟就是給你多元的方式取得用地給你更大的空間跟你要多元取得社宅包含你用譬如說分散在各個大樓裡面都有包住代管等等去增加弱勢可以入住的機會我覺得這其實是並行不備的啦好不好我補充一下就是說整個地區"},{"start":5041.158,"end":5046.765,"text":"不是每一個地區都適合一定要做比如說這個地區明明可能人口只有一兩萬"},{"start":5048.086,"end":5074.452,"text":"那可是他做了一個新的整開區可能面積因為越越越中南部的話他土地越不是問題沒錯那我們用這樣的方式去估算的話台灣可能動者又留下了四五公頃的社宅土地那可能當地的需求根本沒有他不見得有這樣的需求啦對所以我才會說如果強制去修法反而會失之彈性那我們現在的做法是說我在都計的過程當中"},{"start":5075.572,"end":5104.547,"text":"就先加入評估 去做評估 去做確認那有的話我直接在都市計畫審議直接加進去了那這樣的話就可以確認它在這裡會不會有涉災那會有多少量的涉災那用什麼方式處理那這在都市計畫裡面直接就把它定清楚了那這樣是最好的那第二個就是說現階段有的我們都採行政協商其實地方政府到目前為止也都願意配合採行政協商來處理這些土地"},{"start":5105.049,"end":5127.108,"text":"那這樣的話我們在處理的彈性上會比較多元而且也比較容易在實務上來講它會比較趨於合理好 謝謝署長的補充說明其實署長剛剛講最後其實就是張宏祿委員的關切嘛也就是說擔心說這個彈性問題沒有辦法被很好的處理署長的看法跟我是一樣的啦你要給地方政府有彈性有一定的空間嘛 不然我們講一下"},{"start":5127.848,"end":5149.925,"text":"台東他如果要蓋你 包括我們要入法 台東的財政什麼什麼的如果你這樣 台東永遠都蓋不了了我覺得我擔心的是這個OK 好那剛剛這幾個方向 包含多元取得 展開區的定義 彈性的問題還有沒有要補充的好 我們這些都列入紀錄 好嗎作為主條的時候的參考好 我們進入到第三項"},{"start":5150.939,"end":5158.989,"text":"如何精進包租貸款機制加強弱勢的協助這相關的法條是19條之一23條跟第52條來請各位委員發表意見請徐信委員"},{"start":5167.62,"end":5192.016,"text":"好謝謝主席我想第19條之一第23條本席這邊有特別提案就是其實是為了鼓勵民間住宅所有權人將房子委託給包租業者出租還有管理那作為居住長期照顧服務身心障礙服務或是托育服務幼兒園使用所以我們特別針對第23條修正那"},{"start":5197.068,"end":5219.743,"text":"将选择包租方式的住宅所有权人每屋每月租金的免税额度上限把它提高到25000元那不是属于上述所列的那免税额维持在15000元那这边我想主要目的也是为了能够"},{"start":5222.317,"end":5249.126,"text":"對這個民間有所鼓勵那再來就是說剛剛因為在辦公室有一些事情耽誤我看到我還是有關注我們這內部我們第一個討論提案我在這邊補充一下因為我也有提案所以我想最主要就是這個登記平台也是為了變民尤其我們這個社會一直變化我只是補充說明"},{"start":5250.046,"end":5258.447,"text":"那所以是不是是希望我們的政府我們既然社會住宅這個需求"},{"start":5259.71,"end":5284.675,"text":"民眾有這個需求我們讓他們能夠便利不然像目前所採的申請模式就是完工後再開放或者是他登記了他沒有申請到那後面又要再申請所以這個部分我也在這邊既然來了我也特別提出來那當然我有聽到好像會怕有個資或是什麼的問題"},{"start":5285.675,"end":5302.108,"text":"那我們希望這個部分應該政府是有辦法 不然我們其實我們民眾政府有很多掌握我們民間的一些資料那這個部分應該是可以有安全性才對好 以上兩點 謝謝好 謝謝 林卓人"},{"start":5306.971,"end":5323.899,"text":"好 我針對有19條之一啦因為現今我們的租房屋業者都會先跟房東簽三年的包租合約那期間每個月呢付房租給房東然後業者大概當二房東把房子轉租給別人這叫做包租那或者是另外有業者呢"},{"start":5324.719,"end":5350.354,"text":"代為管理整個出租流程稱為代管那業者不像包租那樣自己承租下來再轉租而是協助房東找房客那處理招租收租報休點交維護的事務房租還是直接由房客交給房東業者就收取服務費那包租代管呢就是現在目前房屋租賃比較市場上比較常見模式可是今天政府為了彌補"},{"start":5351.895,"end":5363.394,"text":"社會住宅數量不足的問題有條件補助我們的包租代管的業者條件是要把房子租給經濟或者是社會弱勢族群的人不過沒有"},{"start":5364.52,"end":5392.566,"text":"不過因為沒有配套的機制來幫助弱勢團體導致我們的業者或社會福利單位跟房東之間都有疑慮不太願意投入經營所以我覺得政府應該積極介入引導所以我們才會增訂這個條文明訂政府要去做這件事情就是中央主管機關要和掌管社會福利的單位合作一起建立弱勢者的服務政策針對包租跟代管具弱勢身份的房客要提供必要的社會福利服務"},{"start":5393.326,"end":5413.392,"text":"或媒合轉介社會福利資源這樣才能夠提升業者跟房東的意願增加出租成功率也讓社會福利身份的人得到應有的協助因為前面大概我後來看也有人條文裡面未來在第四條的時候要增加弱勢到50%如果越來越多在一個社宅裡面的話更要"},{"start":5413.792,"end":5425.8,"text":"福利服務要提供進去才能夠是幫助在那邊居住的人而且也能夠讓在其他跟他們一起居住的人能夠和平相處我覺得這蠻重要以上謝謝"},{"start":5433.259,"end":5456.017,"text":"這幾條的修正方向其實是這樣就是說包租代管本來是一個包套的一個政治政策概念嘛就當然就是希望說可以釋出平常的這個閒置的空屋讓這個弱勢族群可以入住好等於就是間接的增加類似社會住宅的這樣一個戶數增加居住正義但實務上在政策這樣走了一段時間大家會發現其實代管的比例是遠遠超過包租啦"},{"start":5456.317,"end":5468.415,"text":"那其實就是因為包租的彈性相對沒有這麼大風險可能比較高那優惠又跟代管差不多那實務上大家都通通去做代管那現在就是包租的比例我看這邊的資料是23.6%而且是下降趨勢我是覺得這比較擔心"},{"start":5471.619,"end":5491.538,"text":"因為理論上來講其實你用包租的方式其實是比較容易去抓量比較容易去掌握那個比較容易去比較貼近我覺得比較貼近居住正義這樣子的一個初衷啦但是現在變成貸款越來越多那包租不夠多所以其實大部分委員的修法都是把包租的免稅額嘛做相當的拉高然後並且"},{"start":5492.859,"end":5520.565,"text":"這個有比如說民眾黨的提案他就說包租的這個比例應該達到50%他是做政策指導在法令上做政策指導好在我們這一些方向那我們請行政機關針對這樣問題做一下補充說明謝謝感謝啦因為其實包租貸款當時提出來的概念為什麼有這兩個合在一起其實它也是針對台灣現在的租屋環境的一個特性也就是說你還是要先讓房東比較信任"},{"start":5521.414,"end":5542.919,"text":"因為一開始你要去因為台灣的租賃契約都是一年一千那你要他一口氣就答應你三年一千其實一開始在做就相對比較困難所以才會有包租跟貸款這兩個形式出來那其實這幾年下來跟委員報告我們到今年的5月31號其實包租的比例是逐步在成長"},{"start":5543.786,"end":5558.378,"text":"到現在已經佔了32%那代管是68%代管是68%所以他是有逐步在提高也就是這幾年下來包含工部門的努力包含包住代管業者的努力其實已經讓這個這個"},{"start":5560.606,"end":5584.713,"text":"市場已經慢慢開始有一些改變那我想這個改變是一個正向的這一個部分當然包租的這個因為它涉及到租賃關係會比較複雜因為就像剛剛葉秦偉有講他是業者先來代理處理這樣的一個租約但再去轉租出去那這樣的話當然就會有這個包租約跟轉租約所以"},{"start":5585.646,"end":5610.185,"text":"因為也涉及到兩個合約所以對房東來講一開始他壓力會比較大他會覺得比較大那所以如果你現在又把他強制說一定要二分之一那其實對這個也沒有辦法之後馬上就把這些案子馬上轉過來反而會讓民眾會擔心說政府有沒有強制他去做的這樣的一個比例第二個當然就是說當然前幾年因為房地產的這個"},{"start":5612.042,"end":5632.852,"text":"房地產的價格一直在上漲所以包租本來就會面對一個房東會有想要提前解約的一個風險的壓力那代管對他來講可能相對壓力比較小但是我想這幾年下來慢慢穩定成長以後其實委員們可以去期待他可以慢慢成長朝向他超過一半的方向來進行"},{"start":5634.11,"end":5652.762,"text":"那而且包租他還要去他還要會有這一個如果他的單次的給付要超過兩萬以上他還會有額外繳納補充保費的一個問題所以這些都是對房東來講他潛藏在心中有一些壓力這也是我們為什麼我們用逐步的輔導"},{"start":5653.582,"end":5679.948,"text":"那其實現在業者都很努力朝向希望這個合約都朝向以包租的方式來進行那這個是不是讓我們有再努力一段的時間那去提高免稅額其實不是有時候不是房東最在意的因素他在意的因素是中間有沒有可能因為我有需要我要提前解約那對包租來講我就有這個壓力這其實對房東來講是一個比較大的"},{"start":5680.652,"end":5708.735,"text":"心理上的一個因素但是我想這幾年讓他慢慢穩定下來那業者都會拿很多實際的案例去跟房東們談慢慢去改變他們的一個觀念這樣的方式去做那至於跟衛福部來洽商建立弱勢處遇的這個協助機制也跟各位報告我們在長照2.0的時代就已經主動跟這個衛福部來洽接來合作那就我們呢有一些業者呢我們就訓練他在"},{"start":5710.643,"end":5727.702,"text":"手中的清單裡面去找出對象那主動來跟衛福部來合作那這一點我們從長照2.0時代就已經有開始在進行那我們在現階段下一期的部分呢我們是開始進行全面的業者的訓練也就是說在現在所有的這個"},{"start":5728.533,"end":5753.893,"text":"包括代管的業者呢他們的這些承辦人員都要來參與這方面的訓練也就是說在手中的名單裡面再去找到要主動去找到這樣的一個對象那幫他們尋找適合的這一個租屋的一個地點那也一方面去跟房東來溝通做一些市都的一個改正那所以這個部分我們現階段是在"},{"start":5755.174,"end":5777.539,"text":"就很積極的在這樣的一個進行那會用落實的方式來處理因為一旦落入了條文以後我們也擔心是說會不會房東以後覺得這個以後就是會優先拿來租給弱勢團體那這個當然這中間又會有一點失之就是說一旦剛性定了以後現階段的彈性做法會不會又讓"},{"start":5778.686,"end":5797.267,"text":"房東引起疑慮那這一點就是我覺得在實務過程當中我們可以繼續來努力那是不是一定要來修法這件事情我就覺得大家都還可以再討論那補助的總金額其實這一點我剛剛也講了他不是他考慮的唯一的選項"},{"start":5798.717,"end":5814.841,"text":"那所以這一點是不是讓我們逐步來做處理因為太過於法令規定啊我一定會包租超過一半這其實對現階段房東逐步在改變他的這個想法的過程當中又加了一道強制規定反而不是一件好事我這樣做這樣的說明好 謝謝"},{"start":5818.457,"end":5828.462,"text":"呃我們林立勤委員先補充一下說明然後剛剛我們內政部部長希望這個因為這個稅率又會有關嘛所以我們希望待會財政部副稅署我們林立勤副署長做一下補充說明好不好來先請林立勤委員"},{"start":5832.824,"end":5849.873,"text":"過往事實上為什麼不願意租給老人就是因為擔心獨居老人所以為什麼我覺得要有福利服務介入就是說如果福利服務介入的話相對事實上是讓房東事實上是安心的那現在你看伊甸立新"},{"start":5850.843,"end":5878.209,"text":"他們在處理老人或者是家暴婦女反而事實上是民間團體積極去做介入可是一樣他們大概就是要變成是團體自己要去想辦法有時候還不見得能夠介入所以我認為事實上為什麼當初會寫這個增加19條之一就是希望把他們確定下來讓我們的福利服務事實上是可以進駐有一個法的依據我覺得倒不會像剛剛提的說會不會擔心租給"},{"start":5879.369,"end":5903.287,"text":"所謂弱勢可是如果有一個福利服務在做協助的話我覺得反而相對事實上會比較有意願租給因為畢竟我們現在進入到超高齡社會的時候那獨居老人事實上是也在成長的當中可是他不見得代表有問題可是就是房東可能會有疑慮甚至事實上是受暴的婦女她離開她的家她要去租房的時候"},{"start":5903.707,"end":5918.515,"text":"如果有一個社福團體在協助他的話他也可以穩定工作之後可以繳房租所以我認為事實上最好事實上有必要性雖然剛剛提到說已經有在做可是如果沒有一個法明確的話事實上福利服務很難導入啦以上謝謝謝謝林玥琴委員的說明我們現在請財政部這個林玥琴副組長做一下官方意見請"},{"start":5931.247,"end":5947.351,"text":"付税署說明一下有關這個包租代管的這個免稅額度一萬五千元現行是因為考量說不論他透過主管機關或者是租服事業來包租或者是這個媒合代管方式出租他同樣都具有高度的公益性"},{"start":5947.831,"end":5961.967,"text":"所以现行是提供相同的免税额度使他的租税待遇一致那维持租税上的中立性那其实现在这个15000元的额度其实我们根据相关数据来评估其实是足够的"},{"start":5962.848,"end":5984.576,"text":"因为他如果有租金收入有超过15000元那他还可以减掉60%的费用剩下40%来计算所得那以租金收入如果一个月3万元为例来计算的话那他的免税额度是15000元那超过免税额度的15000元再扣掉60%的费用只剩下40%的所得"},{"start":5986.337,"end":5994.099,"text":"所以就是一萬五千元乘以百分之四十也就是六千塊所以他的月租金是三萬塊的話那他報稅的時候他的所得只要報六千塊但是這個六千塊去申報所得稅以後呢我們所得稅本身也有高額的這個免稅額跟相關的扣除額可以扣所以我們有去跑過這個統計數據"},{"start":6010.442,"end":6025.76,"text":"目前这些这个社会住宅公益出租人我们这个15000元的免税额度给了之后然后再加上我们税法本身也有相关的免税扣除额以后呢那这些这个房东呢他要缴税的比他"},{"start":6027.221,"end":6055.076,"text":"要缴稅的比例大概只剩13%也就是87%的房东包括不管是社会住宅的房东或者是我们公益出租人的房东87%他报税的时候他这个租金收入是都不用缴税的那只剩下13%的房东他的所得比较高一点他可能要缴一点税但是我们去统计他这个纵使要缴税的房东他大部分的一年要缴的所得税也在2000块以下"},{"start":6056.537,"end":6076.017,"text":"所以其实目前这个免税额度是很足够的那大部分房东他可能不大需要缴税所以这个就回到说这个房东选择他要包租或者是代管方式可能也有其他他考量的因素那租税可能不见得是他主要考量的因素那以上说明"},{"start":6079.174,"end":6098.14,"text":"謝謝還有委員好李博弈委員請那個副組長你稍等一下還有跟那個吳署長我覺得這件事情你們兩個要一起處理啦就是說免稅額度一萬五經過你剛的說明之後你說有百分之八十七的房東他不會被課到稅百分之十三會被課到稅"},{"start":6100.12,"end":6118.385,"text":"這13%它的收入的級距大概在哪裡也可以要完整說明一下讓包租貸款讓更多房東有這個納入包租貸款的意願否則我們過去也一直在主張嘛就認為這個1萬5的這個免稅的額度太低到底是怎麼算出來的我覺得你針對這87%跟13%的這個收入的級距再詳細說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":6124.031,"end":6149.824,"text":"我最後問一下,這個87%應該是所謂的公益出租人吧?也就是說適用包租貸款政策的是不是?還是所有的房東?87%指的是公益出租人跟社會住宅的房東,就是我們住宅法的房東那你可以說明一下這個收入的級距,這樣更容易讓包租貸款可以推廣嗎?謝謝"},{"start":6154.319,"end":6165.753,"text":"包委員這個我可不可以再整理一下我現在你說他適用的房東適用的級距嗎他大概收入的級距他13%收入的級距是特別高的"},{"start":6168.664,"end":6186.7,"text":"對沒關係我們就保持這個免稅額度跟他的收入級距來做討論來做動態的討論還是你現在可以說明報告委員一下主要大概他是適用20稅率以上的納稅藝人20以上才會有可能要繳到稅OK好謝謝"},{"start":6194.929,"end":6198.811,"text":"還是要問一下我們政府部門的態度因為我覺得既然都有在做了為什麼如果可以的話"},{"start":6211.839,"end":6237.972,"text":"對於整體的社會福利的一個服務對象來講事實上是更好的我們請吳署長部長要親自說明嗎我想林委員的那個提案相當的多大概就是希望能夠導入就是社會福利跟相關的環境那在原則性上或者是宣示性的條文在我們的住宅法放在哪一個條文裡面其實我們如果未來再審查條文我們並沒有特別意見"},{"start":6238.912,"end":6260.184,"text":"但是第一個我們不希望說把它標籤化然後再來林委員所提到針對第十九條第一項第六款新辦的社會住宅那剛剛我在回應很多委員的詢問的時候我們也不一定是針對新辦的社會住宅未來可能會有民間公司他們也願意釋放出來社會住宅"},{"start":6261.505,"end":6276.494,"text":"好但是呢我們如果把它放到裡面去說一定要有提供必要的福利服務除了我們會配合衛福部的福利服務之外其實也要看狀況有些地方可能是需要長照服務但是有些地方呢他可能是需要這個"},{"start":6277.475,"end":6298.893,"text":"幼兒園的這個社會福利的部分那其實這個都彈性非常的大那目前為止的不管是社會福利住宅不管是要興建也好或者是說轉租或是其他各種不同的方式取得其實一定程度的屬於要被服務的福利服務對象的人都有包含在內"},{"start":6300.214,"end":6329.281,"text":"那所以呢這些如果林委員一定要把它提案進去的話呢我們並不希望說寫針對第十九條第一項第六款新辦的社會住宅等等等等等等那也可能會回歸到原來林委員所提到的第一項裡面的部分把它變成是一個通案性跟原則性的部分的話那要求中央跟地方政府還有要求這個內政部的國土署跟衛福部的相關的社會福利機構一起來協助我想這個可能比較符合比較沒有針對性"},{"start":6333.59,"end":6360.16,"text":"好還有人要補充嗎沒關係我們充分發言沒關係不好意思部長剛剛提的是說19條之一是只拿掉剛剛提的第一項第六款這個嗎還是說連整個19條之一事實上是不建議完全納入只放第一條有一個所謂福利服務確認一下根本報告啦其實33條之一齁其實大概都已經有指定了那"},{"start":6361.141,"end":6367.892,"text":"我知道當然委員會很希望說把攝譜的這一個觀念在所有措施裡面那嚴格上它是一個"},{"start":6368.817,"end":6390.744,"text":"比較接近宣示性的條文但是是不是可以去用宣示性或指導性的原則去談這件事那不要去個別去定義因為事實上在做的時候我們都的確就像剛剛部長所說的我們會針對這些服務的對象去確認他所需要的項目再去做相關的協助"},{"start":6391.644,"end":6399.318,"text":"那如果去了變成所有不管什麼通通都要有的話那相對會失之在這方面彈性反而會沒有"},{"start":6403.987,"end":6432.962,"text":"好還有不好意思因為我覺得這兩個是不太一樣33條講的事實上是說這個社會住宅需要有這些東西在可是我提的事實上如果在包住代管的時候他有時候遇到好的一些像有時候可能會像目前現在事實上有單位事實上是等於是他們事實上來租比如立行基金會或伊甸然後再來轉租給然後他們有一些"},{"start":6433.862,"end":6451.87,"text":"處理的有些東西要處理的話是由團體來做處理所以才會想說這能不能去考慮把它納入在提出來把這個福利服務能夠變成事實上是講必要也是因為要看他這個人的狀況有沒有需要啦好謝謝各位委員還有沒有什麼要補充的沒有我們簡單這一題我們簡單做小結論好不好"},{"start":6462.631,"end":6477.384,"text":"這個包租貸款的部分提案的原由要只是希望包租跟貸款比例更加平衡希望可以提高包租政策的誘因透過減稅的方式來做處理那行政機關這邊的顧慮是說第一個他有更新數字嘛說現在包租是32%貸款68%"},{"start":6479.326,"end":6495.817,"text":"再來擔心說如果有明確的政策指導比如說入法多少比例會造成民間執行的壓力那這個也針對優惠是否有效提出了一些疑慮啦因為認為民間的需求是彈性所以說補助不是誘因有關於這個社福機制導入的部分大概"},{"start":6496.857,"end":6513.285,"text":"這個部裡面可能會關心有點被貼標籤等等的一些問題但我們提案的委員是講說其實是反而是讓社福機制導入其實是反而可以解決一些租屋的糾紛也反而可以讓這個這個過程可以更順利好不好我們大體上講那賦稅署的部分我要特別提醒一下因為"},{"start":6514.486,"end":6543.331,"text":"其實這也是個蠻有趣的議題啦就是說包租代管我們所謂的公益出租人的部分到底人數有多少啊對不對那課稅負是多少如果我們真的調高了這樣相關的一個減稅的優惠對不對會造成多少稅損或什麼我覺得其實都可以提供一些詳細的數據所以我們就請負稅署針對剛剛包含委員關切的一些這個有關稅的部分不然級距也好人數也好稅率也好這個會後提供詳細資料吧我們在逐條之前要看到相關的資料這樣我們到時候進逐條的時候討論會更清楚可以嗎"},{"start":6544.465,"end":6555.317,"text":"好 這是第三項 那我們就這樣囉好 第四項 我們如何強化租屋資訊透明這個條文 相關條文是第十條跟第四十七條請問各位有意見嗎沒有 就我問了喔有嗎 好"},{"start":6569.315,"end":6595.3,"text":"那請徐新委員這個就是說現在為了我們讓租賃市場資訊透明嘛那我們內政部已經有建置這個租金統計資訊的專區那但是就民間就是說大部分租賃的這個顧客呢民眾會希望資訊內容更完整更具參考性所以本席這邊有增訂"},{"start":6597.298,"end":6626.678,"text":"依这个物件形态屋龄还有公布每坪租赁平均数与中位数的价格来办理那这个部分让租屋资讯更透明我不知道我有提这方面的修正不知道行政单位的看法如何然后再来就是说我们在整个租赁市场我们觉得学生学生的租屋权益不应该只有教育部"},{"start":6627.418,"end":6651.918,"text":"所以我們在很多包括租賃方面資訊更透明讓所有的人他能夠更了解他要租因為我們接到很多就是他租了以後才發現怎麼樣怎麼樣其實這種問題很多所以我們的目的就是當然各個年齡層但是我在這裡還特別提出來就是說"},{"start":6653.358,"end":6676.515,"text":"不應該只有 這個之前也有質詢過不應該只有教育部 其實我們內政部既然對 是主管這方面的法案我們也希望 也能夠多照顧一下我們的學生 謝謝好 謝謝徐欣英委員各位還有要補充嗎我們一樣 我們委員先講一輪我們再請政府機關做說明好不好"},{"start":6678.052,"end":6700.277,"text":"這我說明一下啦,這個其實我們其實第一會期的時候我們其實就討論過了第一那時候我們是修租賃專法嘛那後來大家希望給給你們一點時間那後來推出了這個區塊的方式可是我看區塊的方式其實還是有點太粗略了啦由於我本席的選區規範來講我規範是細分成四個生活圈啦但你用一個平均的數額它真的有辦法如此反映租賃市場的一個狀況嗎"},{"start":6701.497,"end":6720.218,"text":"所以我想不管是透過修正租賃專法也好或者是修正住宅法也好你總要在租市場透明的這一部分有進一步的強化讓這樣子的一個數字更貼近市場的一個真相所以我覺得這是不是要好好來討論一下因為現在內政部的租統計專區"},{"start":6723.223,"end":6742.105,"text":"真的是不夠精準以租金50分位的資料來看新北市租金的50分位的價格甚至比台北市還高那跟大家其實對租賃市場的認知其實是有一些落差所以我想你用那種區段式的方式來算我覺得會我覺得是不足夠的啦那內政部對那時候嘛就今年3月24嘛就這個會期之後其實我們有討論"},{"start":6743.967,"end":6767.966,"text":"這個專案報告就有講說要把地級啊租賃資訊做整合借接啊要繼續來精進租屋市場透明化應該也是政策方向所以這次我想修法的幾個幾個委員都有提到就是說要把這些東西透明化包含是這個物件型態啊屋齡啊平均數中位數房型配比屋齡等都盡量的透明化那這條線要畫在哪裡對不對我們聽聽行政單位意見來有請"},{"start":6773.813,"end":6795.033,"text":"各位委員的關心齁那這個部分有關於租屋透明化的部分我們現在利用那個租金補貼的資料的部分現在已經有公布兩期的租屋行情的一個公布那這個部分的資料是繫到那一個整個行政區就是以鄉鎮市為行政區來公布他的一個租金的一個中位數中位數的一個情況那"},{"start":6797.748,"end":6826.049,"text":"第二個部分的話就是委員其實之前有在關心說要不要公佈到統計到租金的一個單價那這個部分我們在這一期的話以後我們租金統計會分兩期來公佈就是每年會分兩期來公佈那這一期最近的一期大概會在七月的部分去配合租屋組就是學生換屋的部分來公佈那我們也去套疊過地級資料那因為現在的話如果以整成的資料的部分因為地級裡面有比較正確的面積"},{"start":6827.31,"end":6848.086,"text":"那這個部分我們已經在這一期已經規劃把整層出租的一個平均的單價就是單坪的價格的中位數跟平均數這個部分已經在做統計那會在這一期裡面去做一個分析讓整個資料的部分能夠讓民眾更為容易來做一個參考"},{"start":6850.854,"end":6876.187,"text":"所以你的意思是說比起之前你公布的更細緻的地方多了一個整成因為之前的話只有租金的一個總位數而已那我們現在是吸到整成單價的一個總位數跟平均數所以民眾一般的話參考性就會更高所以你講說目前公布兩期下一期是期二公布是第三期的意思是嗎每一季 現在是每一季公布 OK"},{"start":6877.273,"end":6904.332,"text":"每半年 那上次的話是今年的一月所以下一次的話我們會在今年的期間公佈剛好配合學生的那個換屋的 換租屋的所以你的意思是說公佈的這一期會比上一次的數字更詳細對對對 包含到單平價的部分這因為我們審法案的需求 你們有沒有辦法提早提供啊還是說會有困難因為現在資料還在還在整理是吧 還在整理中那我們算過最快的時間應該是七月的上旬"},{"start":6905.66,"end":6907.951,"text":"好來徐行委員請"},{"start":6908.969,"end":6937.094,"text":"那所以以後都是這樣1月跟7月嗎還是說12月跟6月你知道為什麼嗎因為一般應該你公佈了以後他參考了然後他才去那個他就要去換嘛那剛剛你有特別講學生剛好那個所以你6月可能比較剛好他剛好考完期末考他可以準備他要不要換嘛那12月的話剛好明年新的一年1月通常可能"},{"start":6938.074,"end":6949.881,"text":"我的意思只是問看看說因為你反映shift一個月而已嘛這第一個第二個你剛剛好像特別講租金而已那我們提的比如屋齡啊或那個物件形態的部分怎麼樣來 市長有請"},{"start":6954.039,"end":6971.673,"text":"委員第一個屋齡還有一個租屋型態的部分原則上它的中位數我們也會去公佈那我們自己有看過那個屋齡的部分其實在價格的差異性不大那一樣統計資料我們會公佈出來那現在其實大家比較有參考的部分是"},{"start":6972.433,"end":6997.319,"text":"單平價的部分所以這個部分我會特別再跟大家到時候跟民眾去做一個宣導那1月跟7月的部分因為我們的資料大概是用像7月我們是用3月的所有的一個租金補貼的一個資料大概有62萬戶所以配合整個時程的部分大概我們算起來大概7月的話整個會比較適合那如果有可能再早的話提前到6月的部分的話"},{"start":6998.118,"end":7025.183,"text":"這個我們可能在下一期的部分看一下作業的速度是怎麼樣再來配合因為我們本來是規劃說七月的時候學生剛好再換屋再找新的房屋或者是有些剛考上再找房屋那一月的話可能有些民眾可能換工作換工作地點他要再找房屋那一月跟七月是最佳的一個時間點那如果要再做一個提前我們技術上可能下一期之後再來做一個評估看技術上做得到做不到"},{"start":7025.603,"end":7046.52,"text":"那這個部分就容我們來做一個技術上面的一個評估所以剛剛你的意思就是說1月那下一期的部分可不可以提早這個我可以理解那你那個物件跟那個你的意思就是說可以公布所以之後你們這一塊也會在整個的租屋的平台裡面都會提供謝謝"},{"start":7049.483,"end":7064.342,"text":"我覺得這樣子啦在下一次我們一樣進逐條之前就是說你把你最新想要公布的那個資料因為你現在還沒有資料的內容沒有關係但你至少欄位嘛就是跟前一期差別是什麼你知道那個差別的那個相關的資料你給大家關注這個法定委員好不好"},{"start":7064.942,"end":7094.062,"text":"應該七月公布的那一批委員就會有比較具象的...我知道我不能等到七月因為我法條要往前走嘛所以我們現在可能要討論法條審查就算排足條的時候你這相關資料一定要給到讓大家知道說你現在在做的那個以前是提供哪些資料新的是提供哪些資料甚至未來會提供哪些資料拿在欄位拿在欄位對這欄位就好嘛那在欄位那當然有數字佐證那是更好那如果你數字還來不及那至少欄位要有我要知道跟之前的差別在哪裡可以嗎好那這一部分就暫時先這樣各位還有意見嗎"},{"start":7095.831,"end":7097.931,"text":"好 我們休息五分鐘好不好 上個洗手間"},{"start":7122.316,"end":7122.817,"text":"因為這個太騷擾了"},{"start":7156.886,"end":7157.527,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":7178.67,"end":7179.31,"text":"對 三層還有"},{"start":7220.972,"end":7221.312,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":7244.243,"end":7244.463,"text":"河沙"},{"start":7288.507,"end":7290.669,"text":"剛才有三年級的學生,他本來目的不太好,他本來目的不太好,他本來目的不太好,他本來目的不太好,"},{"start":7303.507,"end":7330.941,"text":"有一定的平均要求,但他們平常要玩耳機玩耳機,但他們平常可以看不出來,因為他們有間客廳,他們有間客廳,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,"},{"start":7331.954,"end":7343.862,"text":"對,這樣子就能拿到這種,這種的訓練,然後他也是把後面的背景都要拿出來。就像某種情人的感覺。"},{"start":7366.664,"end":7389.833,"text":"有,有兩種的產品對,對或者是有配件的對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對"},{"start":7401.834,"end":7431.203,"text":"呃"},{"start":7435.461,"end":7454.218,"text":"報告委員會我們繼續開會請大家回座好現在我們進入大體討論第五點如何在社會住宅導入社會福利機制這個相關的法條領域請委員提出第一條十九條至一三三條三四條三十五條好請問領域請委員委員開會了開會委員夠補充說明嗎好OK"},{"start":7463.049,"end":7480.298,"text":"因為這個都是導入福利機制啦剛剛有稍微討論來 林委員有要再補充一下嗎OK啦 那這個署長這邊呢謝謝啦 其實我想我們在做社會住宅的時候的確都會跟衛福單位長期都有"},{"start":7481.001,"end":7508.901,"text":"合作我們也主動的在當時在興建社宅的相關興建社宅的規定裡面都主動導入那所以呢現行的機制裡面其實我們都會建議按照現行機制那我們再訂定就現行的這一個法規其實都有在處理那我們呢也為了能增加指導性我們現在也有在研擬社宅附屬設施的作業指引也就是說今天不管是中央做或地方做"},{"start":7509.381,"end":7520.217,"text":"我都盡可能去以這樣的指引的方式來指導他在怎麼樣在這過程當中去留設必要的社會福利的設施還有一些相關的服務那"},{"start":7522.721,"end":7540.283,"text":"這個部分呢,而且對於非營利法人的租金的部分呢其實我們也是希望,因為各地的租金差異是很大,作業方法也很大我們是建議還是由各地方的主管機關來去做那也因為現行的規定,我們都已經現行我們都跟衛福部有在"},{"start":7541.023,"end":7561.632,"text":"合作一些不管是實際上的設施的興建我們讓他用參見的方式那或是跟教育部用參見的方式來做那也關於這個服務的項目的部分我們除了這設施以外我們也都剛剛有說明我們在長照2.0長照3.0那還有現在都把包租貸款業者進行相關的訓練讓他們了解衛福部"},{"start":7564.033,"end":7593.54,"text":"不管是對於長照的項目對於老人服務的項目都進行相關的訓練所以建議是有這樣的方式讓這個衛福部跟業者能夠經由這樣的整合來加速精進他們的服務所以這個部分我們是建議這些條文是不是能夠讓我們再進行一段時間那除非真的在執行上有困難的時候再來做一個修法那否則現在依照現行的機制其實都可以推得動所以"},{"start":7593.925,"end":7610.704,"text":"做這樣的一個補充好 請問各位還有想法嗎關於導入社會福利這一部分沒有 然後我問一下組長喔這個因為剛剛你開宗明義就講嘛就是說你在推動這樣子的一個政策因為你在推動"},{"start":7611.624,"end":7628.464,"text":"住宅政策的時候其實你都有講說本來就要有跟社會福利做很像串聯這樣一個機制我想大家不會反對這個前提條件那我要問的是你在實際執行的時候比如說在社會福利導入的部分你們跟衛福部合作順利嗎會不會有不配合的問題衛福部也提供給我們很多協助"},{"start":7629.105,"end":7656.931,"text":"那所以我們在這過程當中從早期的是屬於設施硬體類的那到長照2.0的時代已經積極介入到服務就對於針對個別的租戶進行服務的項目都已經有在介接那到現在是更積極的直接把所有業者還有承辦人都來訓練讓他們有直接這樣的一個意識主動來提供協助我想這也都感謝衛福部在這過程當中"},{"start":7658.332,"end":7660.633,"text":"都有提供我們必要的一個協助讓未來這個業務能夠更順利的推"},{"start":7668.505,"end":7694.193,"text":"謝謝署長那我想剛剛這個33 34這部分剛剛署長也有解釋那其實利益良善那現在也已經在做沒有我這邊沒有要提立刻的結論我反而是想說署長您剛剛提到的說現在已經在做做得還不錯反應還不錯所以是不是繼續保持現有機制來做的這個主持是不是"},{"start":7694.813,"end":7717.92,"text":"地方政府 你的意思是說讓地方政府去決定嗎沒有 其實中央跟地方都有在做因為社宅的這個部分 我再具體一點 你剛剛的意思是說要不要讓社福團體成為經營這個社宅的這件事情主持是誰主持還是政府 不是地方"},{"start":7721.231,"end":7748.598,"text":"這樣子啦因為我覺得這兩條利益真的是蠻不錯的那能不能請國土署這邊提供相關的資料我們在未來在審查的時候你說現在做的好的機制到內容的這個部分所以這個部分我們跟住住中心都一起來提供這個資料部分其實我跟蘇瑤有意見還蠻一致的就是說特別關心剛剛有講說非營利私法人承租設宅轉租嘛他其實就等於是像保住代管這樣嘛"},{"start":7749.378,"end":7763.895,"text":"因為剛剛我們前面在討論包租貸款的時候他有提這個概念我覺得這個概念其實蠻好的那實務上你現在做的成績怎麼樣好不好你這個資料你做一下準備現在我們到底有哪些非營利司法人社會福利團體在做包租轉租的資料提供一下好不好"},{"start":7764.215,"end":7779.205,"text":"我們同意就是說如果他做得現在不錯我們其實不一定要更改那個機制而是用政策擴大政策也好政策精進也好其實可能是政策而不是直接修法但是要我們能夠確認政策的執行狀況以及方向就這樣子好不好好那我們請國土組會後提供相關資料針對社會住宅導入社會福利機制請問各位還有問題嗎"},{"start":7789.244,"end":7799.786,"text":"沒有 好 謝謝那我們就進第六點是否已經提高社會主宰弱勢比例及放寬弱勢者認定標準那我們請各位委員提供相關意見好 請徐信委員好 謝謝本席在這第四條這邊有一個簡單的修法"},{"start":7810.697,"end":7824.095,"text":"那就是也是因應我們現在少子化日益嚴重然後加上呢其實行政院也是在有特別的針對我國少子化的對策計畫中有提到要針對育有"},{"start":7825.897,"end":7840.195,"text":"為成年子女者優先提供成豬社會住宅以及優先享有住宅補貼的配套措施所以我們就把它修正本來這個第四條的第二項第三款是指"},{"start":7840.836,"end":7856.444,"text":"欲有未成年子女兩人以上現行的規定我們就修正為欲有未成年子女也就是說不限定要兩人以上那所以這個部分我想應該是有共識吧所以特別提出來好謝謝黃建豪委員然後蘇曉慧委員好不好來"},{"start":7862.301,"end":7885.524,"text":"好謝謝主席喔那我想這個反案我們在去年提出來三一提出來那我要先說明一些數據跟大家分享一下去年三一提出來之後呢因為之前看到一些房價跟這個新生兒出生比例的一些數字那剛好去年7月那個歐洲有一篇台灣人投的期刊那個European Econolator他的一個期刊了那個"},{"start":7886.545,"end":7905.813,"text":"作者是台湾人那他做了一个分析就说从2012年到2021年台湾19个县市他做了很大规模的分析之后发现一件事情就是我们的出生率跟这个我们的住宅的比例跟住宅的这个什么这个金额房价所得比哦他呈现极大的互相关"},{"start":7906.573,"end":7919.308,"text":"然後我們的房價跟我們的這個出生率也確實呈現了一個即將死亡即將交叉呈現一個很很大的一個互相關的狀態那所以我們就是基於這個原因去提出這個法案為什麼提這個法案呢"},{"start":7920.168,"end":7943.044,"text":"因為在本來條件裡面當然很多委員都剛剛說明也提到了就是本來的法案裡面是說育有未成年子女但是我想現在台灣問題不只是育有未成年子女的問題以後要兩名以上他才有進入這個資格而且同時他還要具備可能收入等等的符合相關資格他才能夠入住社宅但我想在不管在在這個數據上面不管是在"},{"start":7944.125,"end":7958.648,"text":"学术的数据上面还是在很多媒体报道调查里面其实台湾现在很多民众他在家庭所得的开支上面他的买房子的钱跟他要不要养儿女的钱他某种程度上是呈现排斥作用的"},{"start":7959.289,"end":7974.071,"text":"所以如果我們都認同說少子化現在是很嚴重的國安問題的情況之下我們應該想我們的確是在想盡辦法去解決少子化的問題那有什麼樣的東西能夠排除讓大家感生或願意生或提供獎勵等等的"},{"start":7974.511,"end":7991.252,"text":"那我想住宅可能会是一个很重要的一个方向因为住宅在我们家庭所得的支出比里面来讲是可能是最高的一个部分所以如果能够把这地方帮他省下来他可能有机会去处理去做这件事情他愿意去生小孩等等的所以说我们特别提出来原因就是因为"},{"start":7992.594,"end":8011.366,"text":"把這個條件稍微放寬一點因為本來是要兩位那是不是現在第一個降到一位那也把所謂的所得的限制也把它拿掉我想這對於我們的出生率或許有一定程度上的幫助那因為我在這個裡面也強調說我的條文裡面是未滿12歲子女的家庭納入新的優先比例是50%"},{"start":8012.867,"end":8033.019,"text":"好那這個比例當然大家可以討論但是為什麼提50%是因為我們本來的條文裡面有說針對弱勢的保障要40%好那我希望說當然弱勢的保障我們不要排擠到所謂本來社宅興建它本來一定比例要保障所謂弱勢的部分但是育有未成年子女這件事情在一般的社會直觀的價值裡面它不屬於弱勢啦但是問題是說"},{"start":8034.5,"end":8052.002,"text":"我們要不要讓社宅有更多更活化的可能性或是更多的家庭能夠入住像這一方面也對於社宅的標籤化能夠解決我覺得這是一個對整體社群來講是好事那比如說以台中為例台中很多社宅都是蓋在人口密集區交通方便區學區好的地方"},{"start":8052.623,"end":8076.984,"text":"那這樣子我想對於新的家庭就是對一種新手爸媽來講他能夠有機會露出這個社宅我覺得對他養一隻女也是一個呃正向鼓勵的作用那或許有機會把這東西附入法之後那也把它當成一個重大政策來做的話我想對於現在還在考慮我未來要買房子優先還是生小孩優先的這一群這個族群會有很大的鼓勵作用以上謝謝"},{"start":8079.527,"end":8099.4,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員我們請蘇曉慧委員嘛對不對請好我的修法提案很簡單就是這個我們的弱勢現在羅列了這麼多項其中第七項是指身心障礙者所以原則上呢現在的執行狀況就是成年的身心障礙者那反過來如果是我們"},{"start":8099.98,"end":8100.2,"text":"就這麼簡單 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":8129.463,"end":8157.658,"text":"防塵還是二選一大家都年輕人都很辛苦這個來行政機關補充一下意見吧吳組長有請感謝各位委員所提案的這個項目的確那個少子化的這個議題在的確現在的這個不管是地方或中央都有進行相關的研究那院這邊也有做過這類的研究現在的少子化的現象裡面大概就兩大的因素大概就是"},{"start":8158.308,"end":8174.04,"text":"第一個就是職場的問題第二個就是居住的問題居住的問題就是希望能夠有一個穩居的環境所以買房也好租房也好對他們來講都是希望能夠有一個"},{"start":8174.97,"end":8203.056,"text":"提供長期穩定的居住的話那他才會有生育的一個意願那也是因為這樣所以我們在之前的這一個租金補貼包括代管裡面大概都有針對這個婚姻家庭都有提供一些現有的一個補助的一個額度包含了這個現有的租金補貼那遇有結婚跟遇有子女的人我們都有加碼的這個補助所以現階段其實這一些都在推動當中"},{"start":8204.476,"end":8214.164,"text":"我們推動最主要因為它是一個政府鼓勵的對象而不是一個把它貼到弱勢族群的一個做法"},{"start":8215.697,"end":8237.255,"text":"因為去拔貼要弱勢的話它又會涉及到跟社會福利相關的一個補貼的一個對接的一個關係第二個呢也容易讓社會對這一個結婚生小孩這件事變成是一個標籤化的一個想法所以這是我們在第一個覺得在去把它轉到那一個部分的時候呢"},{"start":8237.848,"end":8252.367,"text":"會相對是一個比較有疑慮的一個現象那第二個因為在110年才把這個弱勢的這一個比例從30%提高到40%也就是說我們執行到現在才第4年那是不是就要這麼快去"},{"start":8253.553,"end":8281.222,"text":"做一個處理這就是產生的第一個要討論值得討論的一個現象第二個就是說在最近在這幾年社宅已經經過了兩輪以上的抽籤大致上都已經看出一個現象弱勢戶的抽籤因為他可以抽弱勢戶也可以抽一般戶他的中籤比例已經是遠超過一般戶而且他佔有的比例已經實質上已經達半了"},{"start":8282.537,"end":8302.508,"text":"那還要再去把這個修高的話很可能它實際上可能就會達到六成甚至佔了七成以上對於其他也需要設宅更大的這一個族群的一般族群來講它的排擠效果可能會更可怕所以這一點也是我們在這過程當中有表達出這樣的一個憂慮"},{"start":8305.407,"end":8327.59,"text":"因為一旦是有弱勢戶的資格他實務上在抽籤他就比別人多一個機會這也是我們在過程當中一直對於地方政府開放其他類型的住戶的對象的時候我們一樣也表達同樣的憂慮因為當你多給他一次簽的機會的時候他中簽率其實是比你想像的還要高很多"},{"start":8328.533,"end":8357.72,"text":"那這樣的話對於一般需要的廣大民眾那其實他的排擠效果是相當可觀所以我們才會建議這個部分可以用其他多元的方式來處理也包含了我們也可以透過現行的一個出租辦法那針對地方有一些需要的話我們適度做一些調整而不需要在現階段的立法裡面就去把它入了法以後那就又變得太剛性而且會變得太"},{"start":8358.5,"end":8375.548,"text":"太標籤化了這一個部分那當然巧惠委員所提到的這一個部分就是說把未成年的這一個納入考慮這一個部分我們也會可以再來演繹看因為當時是以他的確是以成年而且這個對他實際上的生活"},{"start":8376.669,"end":8395.1,"text":"他已經外出在工作可能在工作在獨立了他需要有這樣的環境那育有未成年子女他育有未成年的身心障礙者他的現象可能就比較複雜一點他也可能有父母在照顧現階段也確實有父母在照顧他還不是一個在屬於自己獨立生活的樣態的時候"},{"start":8396.562,"end":8408.621,"text":"那他是屬於的確需要這樣的環境還是說他因為有父母照顧他不一定完全需要這樣那這一點我覺得是可以再來做一個研議來討論看是不是要把這一類的也納入我想做這樣的一個補充"},{"start":8412.225,"end":8440.361,"text":"這是不是請國土署提供一些相關的資料因為你剛剛講中線率嘛對不對所以他其實應該是有需求的人申請的人他有一個破嘛他有一個池子在裡面那因為基本上他第一條修法的時候他一定是配得到處理嘛你如果維持百分之四十的弱勢戶比例然後你把未成年者放進去那當然那就知識體大他就很強的排擠效益但我們要放寬多少的門檻他才會盡量達到一個比較平衡的狀態我覺得需要一定的數字來做支撐所以這部分是不是請國土署提供一些相關的資料因為之前"},{"start":8441.481,"end":8459.756,"text":"中央的部分大概是他實務上市已經到46%地方的已經有高達49%那所以這樣的比就說以現階段都已經衝到這麼高你如果再把比例往上抬其實我們就擔憂可能就是60%甚至60%以上這樣對其他更需要的那個群"},{"start":8460.768,"end":8479.302,"text":"另外我要請教一下以現行實務上來講現在在中央跟地方上針對這個的比例是有是一致標準還是不一樣用40這個標準在做處理但是他會同時握有兩支籤他會連一般戶他也去登記我了解 因為一般戶大家都可以抽嘛"},{"start":8479.642,"end":8497.415,"text":"對,但是你弱勢戶就要有弱勢身份才可以抽嘛那現在我們在討論弱勢身份的問題因為我剛剛聽到署長前面有講一段啦就是說地方自己管的社宅他有自己裁量的空間嗎會不會有中央跟地方現在標準不一致的問題呃,身份啦有些地方允許未婚育的可以因為地方政府有開放出所謂的木林戶"},{"start":8498.696,"end":8513.172,"text":"有所謂的睦鄰戶或特殊身份戶但是我們也告訴他你這樣可能會造成更大不公平比如說你睦鄰戶開放了10%可是其實這一群人他可能拿到了10幾%甚至20%所以你會排擠更多的"},{"start":8514.033,"end":8541.426,"text":"一般戶那所以後來好像這一類也被監察院相關的去做一些糾正不應該隨意去開放一些特定身份我的意思是說現在不管是中央的社宅或地方的社宅到底標準是一致的還是不一致的我們是希望都一致因為我們從你們的角度希望一致但實務上目前是不一致的那過去地方曾經出現有一些特度現在啦現在你剛說過去現階段是沒有啦現階段大家都趨於一致了好謝謝我理清一下沒有我們李崑禎委員然後再黃謙侯委員補充好不好謝謝來"},{"start":8544.129,"end":8561.427,"text":"謝謝主席那剛好來到這邊聽到署長在講那應該是這個住宅法第四條這個弱勢的身份那其實因為我也有提案提案的因為上次其實我也有提過就是說你如果是家裡有身心障礙者但是他未成年"},{"start":8562.33,"end":8576.195,"text":"我們對於這個身心障礙者我們是有給他這個落實身分可以讓他抽籤但是家裡有未成年的就沒有可是就會造成說這個我家裡是有一個未成年但是我就是"},{"start":8577.415,"end":8602.312,"text":"有一個身障者但是我沒有辦法去說但是其實他是符合除非他成年之後才符合這個資格那其實上次講完之後我也不曉得說這個你們有沒有去做過做過一個調查或是說大概屬於這一類的人大概可能性有多少那會不會因為這樣子有什麼排擠的作用那如果沒有排擠的作用的話那是不是能夠把這一條把它納進去那另外一個其實上次"},{"start":8603.092,"end":8625.155,"text":"我有提到就是說如果你是有兩名以上未滿六歲的家庭那我們就鼓勵生育或是說65歲以上的長者可以延長居住的時間因為我們有提到說小孩子可能未來可能住三年三年六年那有可能就是求學的階段那個學籍剛好在那邊"},{"start":8625.615,"end":8644.834,"text":"那我們希望說不要因為你年限到了然後你就必須要遷到其他的學籍去那對孩子的受教這方面也會有影響那老人家也是老人家就是說他如果在那邊然後這個可能也有新的生活圈了那結果年限一到然後你就是又要讓他離開"},{"start":8646.135,"end":8665.653,"text":"那也可能對於這個我們要照顧長者這部分會受到一點影響那所以說才會上次我也提到說是不是有兩名以上未滿六歲的家庭或是六十五歲的長者可以延長居住的時間我不曉得署長這方面有沒有什麼一個比較新的看法我們一起好不好黃先生"},{"start":8667.425,"end":8694.243,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝署長署長那個現行法令是講說就現行他的所謂的我剛講的未成年之女兩人以上的這件事他還要同時符合前項經濟社會弱勢的身份是指家庭總收入平均分配全家人口之金額及家庭財產會超過一定比一定的那個比例嗎他是在這個之下然後有所謂未成年子女兩人以上他在他屬於百分之四十裡面這個部分"},{"start":8695.123,"end":8721.558,"text":"那我今天談的不是在談這個我談的是說額外的就是說我們針對所謂少子女化問題我們提出一些方案來鼓勵大家能夠是他有更高的機率能夠好好的養育小孩到他可能去念小學或是念國中以後到這個階段這是我提案的一個精神那我想這些同事本身我覺得他其實跟我們部長之前提那個婚育宅的概念精神是一致的所以我是覺得說"},{"start":8722.778,"end":8751.297,"text":"當然這個比例可以討論但是我覺得往這方向既然大家都是在往這方向說提供婚姻一宅那我這個概念其實也是一樣就是我提供的是大家只要你有生小孩但至少你的重親比例比較高嘛你就有更高更高的機率你不一定是弱勢因為為什麼要這樣做同時也是希望說我還是希望把那個所謂弱勢這個標籤這個社會的印象不要強化這件事情而是說我們就是提供的是所有的各種"},{"start":8752.057,"end":8768.77,"text":"各階層各種人大家都歡迎來住社宅而且他有一個養育小孩很友善的空間我想這對整個周邊社區也好對整個區域發展來講應該是正面的效果這是我那時候提案所以我不是希望我們要把它放在本來的40%裡面謝謝這個我覺得不失為一種方法他是切另外一塊出來"},{"start":8776.414,"end":8800.432,"text":"但是當然這當然就是跟一般戶的衝擊會比較大嘛對不對你等於是他等於是40%給弱勢嘛我剛剛看一下黃建豪委員版本40%給弱勢戶50%給豫有婚婚結婚且豫有子女的家庭然後剩下10%是一般戶變成是這樣沒關係我覺得可以討論今天大體討論的用意就是這樣好大家不同的版本不同的發想好那個剛剛針對昆城委員建豪委員這個請國路組再做一下補充說明有請感謝啦因為"},{"start":8804.665,"end":8831.701,"text":"應該大致上是這麼說啦社宅數量不夠其實是最大的問題啦因為一出來我相信各種關心的議題都會進來那各種希望能夠加入社宅的都會想要過來這我想都可以那我目前其實中央跟地方也只能說努力的去興建但事實上從前幾輪的抽籤大家都看得出來其實這中間的中籤率"},{"start":8832.501,"end":8855.223,"text":"其實都非常的低啦 都非常的低大概現在大概都是只有一般戶大概都只剩10%左右 甚至低於10%那弱勢戶大概大概有15%甚至有高達25%的這個機率已經可以進到這個裡面那所以我們在觀察這樣的過程當中 我們自己都很小心的盡量不要再去"},{"start":8856.984,"end":8881.745,"text":"傾斜到某一邊去可能是一個很大的一個要考慮的重點那所以在這一點我們才會建議是先因為畢竟才修正後才過了四年是暫時先不不已去動但是婚姻宅這樣的一個概念我們接下來會努力去落實在租金補貼跟包租代管這個部分會針對婚姻家庭會有在做一些加碼的動作"},{"start":8882.446,"end":8905.033,"text":"那這一些我想在現有的社宅以外他如果在外面承租房子或是他以包租貸款的方式去租到的房子那我們會提供給他在租金補貼更高的優惠那還有在包租貸款方面呢會提供給他們年度會有一些修繕費如果未成年者他的居家環境需要有一些修繕"},{"start":8906.093,"end":8931.733,"text":"比如說它有一些安全的這個護具它必須要在室內要去裝修那有一些彈性的地墊它必須要去鋪設避免小孩子撞傷那這一些我們是用這種方式來協助他們建構比較安全的居家環境那這樣子的話能夠在社宅以外它在租金補貼跟包租代管也能夠有好的環境那至於現階段的社宅裡面"},{"start":8932.654,"end":8954.639,"text":"那就可能後續我覺得我們在政策上再逐步來再去調整因為要再去考慮到說會抽籤的比重會不會過度傾斜這個問題讓我們再去做一些修正但是就會像大家所思考就盡量不要把它放在弱勢那一塊因為不管是放到裡面去擠在那一個40%裡面或者是你把它放到50%對兩邊其實都"},{"start":8956.96,"end":8978.381,"text":"有點過度傾斜的一個問題那這一點可能要再讓我們再持續用比較多的數據再來做一些分析那委員所希望我們提出來的這個報告我們會在會後都會再提供好 謝謝這本期還是建議一下這我覺得真的也許到要徹底解決就是輪候取代抽籤要不然你怎樣分比例怎樣抽籤大家都是"},{"start":8979.619,"end":8993.226,"text":"都是很難公平所以我還講因為輪候比如說你把婚姻家庭就設為一個加分項或什麼的然後大家去排序我覺得也許是一個比較好的方向沒關係大家心態保持開放好針對社宅弱勢比例跟放寬認定標準請問大家還有意見嗎好那我們就這樣都列入紀錄好嗎第七個題目是是否應該明文規定社宅租金分級才所得別訂定分級收費標準各位有意見嗎"},{"start":9009.946,"end":9033.212,"text":"這個我跟署長對一下話 基本上其實六都都已經處理完畢了嘛對不對後來也正式公佈了我問一下這件事情六都跟非六都之間會不會有一些差別我跟署長討論一下因為現在有興建設宅的大部分都在六都那非六都的部分都是中央興建那我們自己的所得標準 住均分級制現在也跟地方政府都已經都對接完成了都對接完了"},{"start":9034.372,"end":9047.808,"text":"現在在你們發布最後跟大家商量的結果之後現在大家全體的一致都是四級就是四級然後全體大家都是一致就桃園會比較辛苦還要慢慢給他一段時間要調整但是基本上同意就對了對對他也認同OK"},{"start":9051.212,"end":9067.208,"text":"所以其實已經趨於一致化從政策的角度出發所以你們認為不用特別再需要修法因為按照所得分級制那一個會更困難而且會出現更多不公平的現象各位委員針對這個事有什麼要補充的意見嗎"},{"start":9068.905,"end":9098.545,"text":"因為基本上這個題目比較久啦從第一會期大家就開始關注我跟大家報告一下那後來這個我們給了內政部給國務組一定時間嘛請他們跟各地方縣政府去協商那最後後來有一個比較具共識的一個結果啦好那我想說我剛剛跟署長確認這件事情現在非六都反正是都是中央建沒有這個問題那六都各自的收費版本標準跟這個相關往所得別的方式中央做了退讓然後有趨於一致所以中央認為說不用修法好不好"},{"start":9098.865,"end":9100.567,"text":"那個署長跟部長我可以有大體討論的時候提案說明有說"},{"start":9118.873,"end":9134.328,"text":"這個第四條這個弱勢的家庭阿公阿嬤床這個問題雖然我們會排擠說今天那年輕人要去新城的家如果家人越多的時候 今天會排擠到我希望署長補充我們研議一下讓弱勢的家庭"},{"start":9144.35,"end":9154.796,"text":"裡面現在古代教養真的很多,很多阿公阿嬤出來跟你阿公阿嬤出來已經很辛苦了,裡面還帶著孩子這樣真的很辛苦所以說事實上這個問題要解,好不好?因為剛才我剛才在樓上時間剛才沒有公開在地上"},{"start":9169.804,"end":9170.425,"text":"該我現在補充 感謝主席給我這個機會補充謝謝"},{"start":9180.049,"end":9199.861,"text":"那個我跟美會委員報告一下剛剛我們針對第六點討論的時候其實署這邊都會提供一些資料啦就是說到底如果按照不同委員的提案版本哪些人要納入會讓整個的比例變成什麼樣人數會做什麼樣的變化然後包含重簽率會有什麼樣的影響他們會做一些說明這個我跟您補充報告一下主委你要補充一下嗎針對美會委員"},{"start":9202.799,"end":9211.964,"text":"我們也很怕某些特定對象再加進去其實現有的狀況就是若似乎食指已經接近"},{"start":9213.262,"end":9224.127,"text":"50%了 就抽籤的結果已經遲遲接近50%啊你今天不管加進什麼 或是把它拉大其實都會讓他們不是啦 署長 你說 我知道是弱勢你給你50% 但是裡面的條款裡面我了解我可以說說嗎 那沒辦法 人哪有 我說你們現在未來的50%裡面的條款裡面是不是那個弱勢 要來調整一下 這樣啦"},{"start":9240.934,"end":9249.498,"text":"所以報告就是說因為你現在對40%變50%的現有40%的經營抽籤的結果屬實就是已經中了50%所以他一半後也可以去抽所以他有兩支籤所以實際上已經佔了50%你現在如果改對50%他還有兩支籤他就可以衝到差不多60%甚至超過60%"},{"start":9267.033,"end":9291.825,"text":"這樣對一半戶來說那排擠現象會越來越...因為現在一半戶的中簽率是10%甚至10%以下弱勢戶是15%甚至到25%的狀況會變成會嚴重失衡啦所以我們現在小心謹慎在看這個情形就是說希望它維持一定時間的穩定度以後再再來調整因為畢竟社債它經過兩輪而已抽籤也很多經過兩輪而已所以"},{"start":9295.627,"end":9311.598,"text":"先讓它比較穩定當然讓社宅的量慢慢變大的時候再來談這個要去調整比例可能會更有機會要不然現在社宅變得這麼瘦所以這部分是跟委員做一個說明我當然最大的願望是社宅成長的速度比較快這樣大家會比較有機會好啦 跟你們一起討論一下我的意見討論一下好不好 義兄謝謝"},{"start":9324.844,"end":9341.21,"text":"好 我們回到第七點 第七點大家其實非六都中央主導嘛 六都中央地方已經有共識所以其實這一條大家都沒有修法的迫切性跟必要性嘛 OK大家也沒有別的意見好 最後 第八點 針對住宅法其他相關議題天馬行空也可以 來 請黃建華委員"},{"start":9342.741,"end":9367.326,"text":"好謝謝主席列了這個天馬行空的議題這個我想要跟這個內政部我們部長跟署長反映一個我之前說的那個陳情感後來處理好就是說大家現在在擔憂說像比如說包租或代管的這個就民間釋出的這一部分的房子不夠多那我們政策上理論上應該是鼓勵大家把空屋拿出來供社宅來使用嘛是自網的方向做嘛對不對"},{"start":9368.266,"end":9387.682,"text":"那你看我去現階段台灣的空屋率其實算算蠻高的就是很多人可能只有兩棟或三棟那他之所以不拿出來我跟你分更加分享個案那我覺得這後續如果數據的話可能要去跟財政部討論一下就是說有房地合一歲的問題五年內拿出來出租他就不適用"},{"start":9388.883,"end":9417.669,"text":"那個稅額的部分他就不能抵那個稅他就是會被會被追回我這就處理過類似的的案子就是他們那個陳情人是說我我是基於公益出租政府鼓勵我出租我拿去公益出租結果被追稅追了幾十萬他他就沒好他乾脆就不弄了所以這部分我覺得這是如果只有確鎖之後你有想這幾年的呃交屋量跟交易量其實蠻高的那有可能在這五年內有很多房子是這種案例那如果他們能夠解決掉這個房地合一稅"},{"start":9418.959,"end":9438.285,"text":"免他不用受到這五年限制的話或許啦但從這角度來思考換有沒有機會他有足夠數量他讓他釋出那我們的租屋市場就有可能有一定的比例提高嗎那當然裡面條件大家可以去討論但是我覺得如果能往這方向來思考或許有機會把這個方式多點出來以上是我的分享謝謝"},{"start":9439.582,"end":9449.406,"text":"主席,在這裡要跟我們部長和署長討論一下因為主席說都可以在背後都可以討論喔在這裡我是要說,家裡企業社會住宅在我家的股東城的時候是完全,我們的樸化裡面是完全零所以在中央跟地方政府跟OB府的操縱的時候"},{"start":9468.873,"end":9475.157,"text":"也在最近已經完成了三個社會主宰未來還有三個,我是要讓署長跟部長說我認為剛才大家都說到重點好事要做好事,處不夠處不夠的當中,我也願望自己可以再找好事"},{"start":9491.625,"end":9497.827,"text":"第七個、第八個,但是在這個第四個、第五個、第六個要趕快去到當地,我們才有那些家人來開改變平常事業,這些年輕人也好,若是家庭的生活,因為說實在,我都覺得說什麼人想說下去都"},{"start":9518.971,"end":9521.573,"text":"不重要啦最主要就是可以讓地方自己去關心社會住宅的心因為以前的標籤都說不可以來我這裡去來我這裡去我會幫忙的"},{"start":9534.682,"end":9538.805,"text":"但是現在大家都想要跟社會主宰做出名因為現在我們的企業說實在沒有輸一般的健身還有做得很好,還有立地可以在出名協會來共同使用所有我願望補充和輸入的時候,我認為自己是一個名義代表"},{"start":9560.322,"end":9569.406,"text":"拜託,繼續推出公家機關的地,這才是最重要的因為公家機關、台積電,我們公家機關非常需要年輕人的聯合作以上,拜託好,謝謝"},{"start":9581.863,"end":9606.347,"text":"我兩個一起回答可以 請部長辛苦了我兩個一起回應啦齁那個剛剛王委員所講的假期期的所在我們要來努力啦齁但是我也要跟王委員報告就是說未來啦齁我們要拿到比較多那個社宅的部分齁不需要要一定精修公寓的土地啦我們是希望說齁不需要公寓的土地連後民間它在蓋的時候啦套過什麼樣的機制連後你可以放"},{"start":9610.928,"end":9615.051,"text":"因為畢竟社宅是不是由政府來居住來興建或者是說包租代管或是租金"},{"start":9633.264,"end":9649.311,"text":"進去住的人他沒有擁有房子也沒有擁有土地啦那如果原來的民間的人願意說把他的房子或是他的土地然後讓給社會住宅興建這樣的機制的話我們未來會做大面積的處理多元興建"},{"start":9650.491,"end":9657.318,"text":"不一定是多元興建社會住宅不是這樣子 多元興建提供多少需要的人 這是一個剛剛黃委員所提到的部分可能我們會剛好從反的方向來講現在我們手頭上所知道全台灣的空屋大概是11萬戶 相當的高"},{"start":9670.492,"end":9696.648,"text":"那如果以全台灣的人口來比較的話我們人口並沒有增加的狀況再加上目前的建案量也一直在往上攀升所以空屋會越來越多那空屋如果放在那邊等待市場的行情或是要銷售漁屋等等這些呢對建商來講他們當然是希望說如果像委員所提的我這個空屋稅盡量降低等等會被鼓勵不是 我們可能會相反"},{"start":9697.188,"end":9707.77,"text":"就是好幾年的以來如果你沒有辦法銷售出去的話我說不定會把你的稅負提高除非你釋放出來讓社會住宅使用"},{"start":9709.108,"end":9728.604,"text":"但是你剛剛是要降低稅負啊黃委員的意思是說有人願意釋出啦但是因為房地合一的關係啦一共有房地合一稅啊對啦是房地合一稅的部分就是說這是一個方向但是呢這個方向呢我們還需要找譬如說建商也好或是其他的人一起來處理"},{"start":9729.765,"end":9755.021,"text":"所以我要跟各位報告就是說我還是一再強調現在呢政府的方向真的不是在公有土地上面讓政府用公務預算去興建大量的社會住宅而是現在民間裡面到底有沒有更好的量能讓公部門跟那個私人的民間部門可以一起合作取得大量的社會住宅然後進入我們社會住宅使用了這樣的機制"},{"start":9756.102,"end":9785.685,"text":"這大概是我們主要方向我們署長跟市長他們都還一定要補充所以我們補充一下根文說明一下應該來講現在有兩個走向如果你本身持有的有三房四房要避免課徵囤房稅去採行你把部分房屋納入公益出租人的範疇就是你去申請包租代管那這一個在囤房稅那一個部分它是可以被避免的"},{"start":9786.827,"end":9797.465,"text":"這是第一個關鍵那您講的這個案例比較像是他有去申請的新清安因為新清安他是不可以只能自住不得出租"},{"start":9798.055,"end":9826.576,"text":"一旦你有出租行為被查到的話那你就喪失新簽案資格你的貸款利率就會往上升所以他是一個兩房的走向那基本上之前修正的部分在囤房稅的這個部分現在已經有一些效果出來就是說有些房東持有三房四房了他已經會主動願意搬來所以這一點如果在地方推廣的話也可以把委員在地方可以推廣這個概念如果你手中持有的房比較多可以適度的釋出來"},{"start":9827.416,"end":9849.253,"text":"那這樣的話還可以降低課徵囤房稅的這個疑慮市長委員委員報告一下因為現在有關於空屋釋出的部分第一個部分的話如果他是出租給社會住宅的一個使用他可以用比較低的一個房屋稅的一個稅率大概1.2用自住的部分那委員應該關心的是說"},{"start":9849.933,"end":9873.366,"text":"我們現在有些民眾如果或建商提供出來做出租可是他日後如果要移轉的時候像是土增稅或是房地合一稅那因為房地合一稅他有規定六年內如果你有出租的情況你就不能享受優惠的一個稅率或是土增稅的話如果你要用自用的話是一年內不能有出租的情形會不會影響到民眾一個釋出的那個意願"},{"start":9875.407,"end":9888.248,"text":"那那個部分因為財政部之前他們也有去做一個分析那可能我們之後會再今天複稅署也有代表過來可能我們後續還要跟他們再做一下討論副市長要不要補充一下複稅署"},{"start":9890.539,"end":9911.8,"text":"有關於他那個出租以後他到時候就是不符合他出售的時候因為他不是自住嘛他就不能適用我們的自住優惠的部分我説明一下因為房屋出租他就是出租了以後他就是有租金收入嘛他其實某種程度他是個投資行為啦那跟我們房子是自己來住自住這個不一樣"},{"start":9912.921,"end":9941.432,"text":"那我们房地合一税针对于保障自住的这个精神那我们是自住给清税而且这个清税是非常优惠的这个这个租税优惠那因为出租他跟自住两个性质就是不一样那如果出租的房子他后来不出租了他拿到市场上去卖那如果卖有获利那这个就跟一般房子的买卖有获利一样那我们就适用一般的这个科税规定来科税那就是没有适用"},{"start":9942.152,"end":9964.953,"text":"这个因为他不是自住就没有适用自住的这个优惠啦那当然我们也考虑到说如果让这个公益出租他到时候出售的时候也可以用自住优惠那我们是觉得是说也要考虑一个点啊这个点就是说那会不会这个反而我们鼓励这些公益出租的房东你把房子拿去卖因为卖的时候"},{"start":9965.894,"end":9991.133,"text":"有租稅優惠那會不會這樣子會影響到這個公益出租市場的穩定性因為我們我們是希望說房東穩定的在公益出租市場把房屋釋出我們不是鼓勵他拿出去賣那這個他賣的時候如果有優惠那我們也要思考到這一點說這樣子是不是這個政策的導向是不是符合我們現在的政策這樣子以上說明謝謝"},{"start":9996.809,"end":10009.623,"text":"其實我覺得大家的方向越來越接近了就是希望可以有效的釋出恐怖嘛對不對然後新辦社宅的速度要加快嘛其實大家的方向都還蠻有共識的好 針對其他跟住宅相關的還有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":10011.496,"end":10034.569,"text":"沒有齁 好 我們我重新複述一下那個重點我就不再複述但是有幾些要提供資料的我再提醒一下齁一個是這個包租貸款公益出租人的課稅的相關資料好不好 這個負稅組這邊要協助幫忙一下到底多少是公益出租人啊到底人數會是多少那個比例87%怎麼算的好 相關一些資料請提供那"},{"start":10035.748,"end":10059.48,"text":"地震師這邊要提供的是你們最新的針對租屋市場透明更多詳細的資料的表格嘛對不對跟前期的差異好不好這一定要趕快盡快的來提供那這個國土署這邊我看一下這個非營利司法人陳出轉出的資料嘛對不對我們剛剛有講還有剛剛社會住宅那個種遷率跟那個池子的相關的人數資料好不好"},{"start":10060.612,"end":10067.481,"text":"然後其他主要剛剛特別提的這些資料大概是這些啦好不好所以請我們會後你們要多長時間可以提供早一點好不好兩個禮拜可以嗎兩週內把相關資料補進來好不好並同今天的這個"},{"start":10077.521,"end":10106.173,"text":"並同今天的這個會議紀錄我們作為後續這個逐條討論的時候的參考好那既然大家都沒有問題也沒有再補充那我們大體討論就到此結束謝謝大家這兩個多小時的會議雖然蠻燒腦的但是我想非常的有效率那基本上也都表達了各自的意見所以我想這是非常有意義的討論謝謝大家的參與那我們討論事項所列議案我們就另定期進入逐條討論本次會議到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"},{"start":10111.648,"end":10115.773,"text":"真的好啦好啦 這樣想也是對啦"}]}},{"id":"162696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73caf5e4e48863dcd89525394415ce037c907d28bbaa3ae02300d8e0402cabe7a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:47:49 - 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大家也都提到了這個川普的關稅問題等等所以藥品的供應穩定不僅是國際議題也是國安的問題還有社會的韌性尤其是當我們面臨傳染病危險"},{"start":77.211,"end":93.433,"text":"或是災害國際供應鏈中斷時沒有穩健的藥物儲備還有在地的生產能力就會直接衝擊我們的全民健康還有防疫效能甚至動搖社會秩序等等有些藥品是基本的民生物資更是國安的戰略資產"},{"start":94.634,"end":113.441,"text":"建構有韌性的藥品供應系統是國家在面對危機時守住人民健康和社會穩定的第一道防線但是大家都記憶猶新嘛去年我們爆發生理食鹽水短缺至今我們還是持續有在採購引發基層醫療和急重症照護的全面的警訊"},{"start":114.881,"end":130.062,"text":"不只是生理鹹水其實還有其他的問題都是最基本的醫療耗材卻牽動我們住院藥品稀釋啊清創處理啊外科手術等等多重的用途短缺所造成的影響不只是延宕了我們的治療"},{"start":130.763,"end":148.417,"text":"更可能危及病人的性命當然同時影響了這個護理師人力不足的議題之前就有許多護理師反映說他們在現場工作原本是用大包裝的這個書藝結果要一直來更換這種徒增的工作業務都是源自於"},{"start":148.837,"end":166.293,"text":"台灣藥品供應過度依賴單一製造來源缺乏彈性還有備援的機制同時政府也沒有及時的去監管掌控到這個問題最終爆發這樣子的困境那當然最近我們也是要跟這個國防外交委員會啊等等"},{"start":166.753,"end":191.618,"text":"持續去討論我們這些戰備的藥品到底足不足夠剛剛有聽到很多前輩已經有很多想法了那我們再把視角拉到全球的大環境川普關稅的衝擊至今都還沒有平息甚至有很多不確定的因素先前衛福部針對美國關稅衝擊就有在報告中提到因應全球供應鏈生態改變可能導致生產的成本劇增一旦關稅的影響波及到藥品藥材等等"},{"start":195.319,"end":220.773,"text":"上漲是勢在必行的而台灣要思考的是我國健保制度和藥品韌性可不可以因應這樣子的衝擊藥品價格上漲後如果我們的健保制度無法支付有些重要的藥品會不會又更退出台灣的市場這會影響到我們國人病患的健康權益尤其是寒病的用藥癌症的用藥等等又或者在談判的過程中如果美方要求我們要購買更多的藥品"},{"start":222.134,"end":235.102,"text":"更貴的藥品恐恐會衝擊到我們的健保財務這其中的利弊得失要怎麼權衡衛福部的角色還有決定權用到哪一個層級是接下來我們要密切關注的重點面對未來這個全球供應鏈的潛在災難風險"},{"start":238.644,"end":262.195,"text":"我建議政府除了建立關鍵藥品儲備清單提供供應預警還有跨部會的協調能力在打造藥品韌性的路上也應該積極的幫助我們本土的藥廠發展不論是給予能夠降低生產成本的政策支持比如說付稅的優惠等等的措施也應該肩負領頭羊的角色去幫助台灣廠商"},{"start":263.115,"end":281.368,"text":"到國際上去找市場比如說有一些品質優良藥效好的學民藥可以從中去穿針引線協助台灣的廠商取得代理或更經濟實惠的藥品帶入台灣造福國人的健康真正打造一個具備韌性的健康安全網"},{"start":282.488,"end":303.08,"text":"藥品供應穩定是守護我們醫療品質、國人健康、國家安全的基本從生理鹹水短缺一直到全球關稅衝擊我們看到台灣的藥品體系仍存在一個結構性的風險所以我們更應該來強化預警還有儲備機制扶植在地的藥廠拓展我們國際的通路"},{"start":303.88,"end":311.688,"text":"並且神聖的應對健保還有藥價談判挑戰一起來打造這個具有韌性的供應才可以在動盪中穩住醫療繼續守護健康還有我們的社會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a737cc5467128773ecb98de439af110e932907d28bbaa3ae0237372448dbf44c7f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:19:54 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藥品跟糧食都同屬我們的戰略物質台灣當然不可以缺糧也不可以缺藥這是每一屆大家都知道的事情可是台灣到底真的有能力確保我們藥品能夠具備持續供應的能力嗎"},{"start":24.031,"end":35.013,"text":"我想剛剛陳理善也提過 整個我們的藥品的許可證裡邊許可證的數量比大概就是國產跟進口的話83比17那長期以來我們自己的健保的藥費當中大概學民藥佔醫令藥的那個數量大概69%"},{"start":48.436,"end":51.099,"text":"得到僅獲得82%的支付金額其中大13.6%為進口學名藥而且是由122家的藥廠來競爭僅"},{"start":62.793,"end":87.602,"text":"以僅14.4%的市場反觀進口原藥廠佔31%卻取得86%的健保支出導致我們長期藥品貿易逆差當然我們今天要談的事實上是整個韌性藥品的韌性就是要保持六個月不缺藥的能力可是如果要穩定藥品供應韌性的話關鍵在於每一季我們的國產學名藥佔率"},{"start":90.703,"end":116.315,"text":"能夠是達到50%以上新上市的學民藥價格呢事實上大概是原廠藥的大概八成的藥價之後就會逐漸下降可是考量到國家的資源來看的話那勢必就要積極來推動我們國產的學民藥來取代進口的原廠藥可是學民藥如果要到50%要在那邊佔到50%的話並不太容易"},{"start":119.137,"end":129.288,"text":"許多藥品即使專利過期五年的話能佔有極高的市佔率顯示我們現行政策在推動學名藥替代上並不是很成功"},{"start":132.116,"end":159.385,"text":"所以我認為策略力大概應該是要獎勵醫師來開立我們的生物相似藥跟學名藥為什麼這麼講實物上市上民眾在使用學名藥關鍵是在醫師是否開立因為多數民眾大概都信任醫生開什麼就吃什麼那醫院的藥局配藥時也不會說出這個藥品是進口還是國產所以我認為就是說推動我們的國產學名藥首要工作應該是鼓勵醫生開立"},{"start":160.965,"end":181.978,"text":"所以在我跟朱立委就各位立委關心像今年4月26日公佈的健保給付項目之支付標準及價格調整作業辦法裡面明文鼓勵使用生物相似藥跟學名藥那生物相似藥在這政策在去年7月1號就事辦了當時我們的佔率呢佔7.3"},{"start":186.205,"end":209.281,"text":"7.38%那远低于国外的50%可是政府加码以加码给付医师150点来鼓励开立特定药品果然事实上是成长到13%而且设定三年内达30%所以我期待这项政策不是只有生物相似药那也能够扩及到学民药那策略我们认为事实上应该要去考量到整个专利"},{"start":210.761,"end":223.105,"text":"連結的制度那本月初那個學民要協會要求政府應盡速檢討我們的專利連結制度當年為了加入我們跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協會"},{"start":225.346,"end":252.883,"text":"協定經濟部主導我們的設立此制度主要在平衡原廠跟我們的學民藥的權益可是在2019年8月實施將近6年我們的專利訴訟勝率從8.7%升到22.2%反而不利學民藥的開發所以政府除了一個政策說保障首度挑戰打贏的挑戰成功者大概有12個月市場市佔率"},{"start":253.632,"end":271.533,"text":"以外就缺乏有效的对应所以我认为政府应该按照我们的学民教学会讲的就是是不是应该要来做一个正面去讨论我们的制度的改革那策略三呢事实上期待的是能不能提出"},{"start":273.015,"end":298.89,"text":"學民藥的支持政策來帶動產業向研發的模式來升級因為根據學民藥協會跟製藥工會6月中旬的調查那超過半數的國產製藥廠都期待政府能夠支持研發跟生產升級除了合理的健保支付以外國產藥廠更期盼政府是不是可以從CMO的純代工走向我們的CDMO的委託開發製藥"},{"start":303.1,"end":319.713,"text":"那CMO的模式呢當然優點是我們價格競爭力強可是缺點就是95%的開發單位都在國外那我們國內的技術量能有限的話這是必須面對的問題所以我認為政府應該去支持要提出對應的政策來引導我們的產業升級"},{"start":323.901,"end":336.211,"text":"我們國內的台廠都很認真可是我們的熬陶廚真的要硬一點因為根據統計的話2014年10月間我們的台灣的製藥外銷產值從197億增值到608億成長了411億可是內需的產量僅大概只有48億那可是同期健保藥的支出的費用卻成長到890億"},{"start":348.081,"end":377.033,"text":"所以政府支持在哪里看不到所以我们觉得全球因应我们的紧张情势的时候都在提升我们的药品自给能力台湾面临更大威胁的话我觉得当然行动要快最后大家就期待就是能够推动国产学名药达到50%的市占率还有扩大奖励医师开立生物相似药跟学名药还有开启是不是检讨专利的连结制度的进程"},{"start":377.541,"end":381.271,"text":"還提出臺灣製藥產業支持的政策以上謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16772","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc881a30a5cb1aad779e2506b9d78cd73c8b19dddded0b194fc704ef323698e22f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra 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那我們下一位請提案人羅委員美玲進行提案說明"},{"start":2168.134,"end":2192.942,"text":"謝謝主席大家早安有近與新住民在台人口數呢逐年地在增加那截到目前為止呢已超過了六十萬人涵蓋了跨國婚姻規劃國籍者長期拘留外籍人士外籍專業人才及留台工作的僑外生等多元的族群已經成為我國社會組成中不可忽視的重要的一環那為了保障其在台的生活的權益並促進融入本國的這個社會本席自上任以來致力推動"},{"start":2197.383,"end":2211.227,"text":"這個制定新住民權益保障專法那立法院呢也在2024年的7月16號三讀通過新住民基本法完成新住民權益專法重要立法的里程碑那依該法第四條明定內政部應設置新住民事務專責中央三級行政機關以統籌規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進新住民就學就業"},{"start":2220.389,"end":2234.8,"text":"賠利關懷協助及多元服務之相關事宜那為了落實相關的法令本席提出新住民發展署組織法草案及內政部組織法第五條修正草案期望以設置長設型的中央專責機關處理新住民事務"},{"start":2237.722,"end":2241.104,"text":"兼顧政策統籌跟個別的服務並強化語言通譯、社會福利、社會參與、媒體禁用及文化推進等功能北溪希望委員跟黨團版本之間能夠達到高度的共識唯對少數條文內容還是要進一步協商的空間例如部分的版本將新住民參與國家考試的事項"},{"start":2262.597,"end":2268.121,"text":"列為新設專責機關之執掌然而依台灣現行的體制國家考試公務人員的這個考選權序保障局這個退服均由考試院專責辦理因此呢這樣的修法內容恐怕非內政部所屬機關的全責範圍本席期盼今天大家不分黨派能一起理性討論凝聚出最共識的這個版本那最後呢本席衷心的想表達新住民是在台落地生根"},{"start":2293.321,"end":2315.576,"text":"參與台灣並認同台灣的重要社會成員設置新住民發展署不僅可強化政府對新住民政策之統籌推動更有助提升國家整體社會融合跟國際的形象那實為我國面對長期人口結構的轉變跟多元社會的發展趨勢之必要作為那本席的提案呢希望各位委員能夠支持 以上謝謝"},{"start":2317.642,"end":2324.217,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位請張志倫委員那張志倫進行提案說明並且一併代表國民黨黨團說明"},{"start":2332.15,"end":2352.212,"text":"主席各位同仁各位官員大家早本期代表國民黨黨團以及我個人的修正草案進行提案說明113年7月16號立法院通過了新住民基本法三讀通過這是一項具有重要意義的立法不僅是象徵我們對新住民權益的重視"},{"start":2352.933,"end":2370.812,"text":"更實質賦予政府具體的作為以及責任其中第四條就明白的指出內政部應設立一個專責的機構中央三級的機構就是新住民發展署來統籌新住民的相關政策以及服務的事宜為了落實這項法律"},{"start":2372.454,"end":2400.695,"text":"本席提出兩個法案分別是內政部組織法第五條修正草案以及內政部新住民發展署組織草案首先內政部組織法修正草案裡本席提議在內政部之下正式設立新住民發展署作為三級機關負責全國新住民政策之規劃推動執行以及協調其次在內政部新住民發展署組織草案"},{"start":2401.716,"end":2423.862,"text":"法草案中提出具体的法治架构包含设立的目的执掌的范围以及组织编制等等草案明定发展组的设立为了保障新住民的基本权益健全社会发展推广多元文化同时也要减少歧视与偏见这不是行政机关的调整更是社会价值的体现"},{"start":2424.562,"end":2443.098,"text":"在職長方面包含政策及法制的規劃語言發展同意制度教學與就業支持文化推展國際交流法律服務健康促進及弱勢新住民的協調等以及協助等也特別規定在有業務需要時可派駐外"},{"start":2445.01,"end":2458.517,"text":"境外人士來辦事在組織編制上設署長一人列檢任13職等等設副組長兩人檢任12職等一定設主任秘書一人列11職等"},{"start":2460.305,"end":2483.63,"text":"面對複雜多元的新住民失誤本席希望藉由這些條文的設計讓新住民發展署具備足夠的專業與行政量能最後各位委員同仁我們有來自世界各地的新住民朋友們他們是我們的鄰居也是我們的家人也是這塊台灣這塊土地重要的一份子"},{"start":2484.45,"end":2508.305,"text":"懇請大家支持這兩個草案讓我們一起來落實新住民基本法建立一個更公平更友善的新住民政策體系謝謝大家好 謝謝張委員接著我們請機關代表報告每位發言時間三分鐘我們先請內政部長賜報告下一位請任市長報告"},{"start":2514.068,"end":2529.427,"text":"主席 各位委員今天貴連席會議也審查我們本部組織法第五條條文修正草案及所屬新住民發展署組織草案本能奉邀列席報告並被質詢請就新住民事務中央三級行政機關的籌備進度來做個說明一"},{"start":2534.383,"end":2554.764,"text":"依照大院三讀通過的新住民基本法的第四條本部應設置新住民事務中央三級行政機關為立新設機關的事宜我們內政部自去年8月12號公布後就成立我們新住民發展署的籌備作業小組那也積極定期召開我們的會議及籌辦相關的工作事宜"},{"start":2557.396,"end":2561.945,"text":"籌備小組我們總共是有六個工作分組那我們包括業務、組織、規劃組、原額設置及權益保障組、預決算組"},{"start":2566.092,"end":2587.904,"text":"法制作業組及財產聽設及檔案移交組資訊建設及調整組那以上的部分都有在去年8月12號公布後我們就由移民署每兩週召開一次的分組的工作會議而每一到兩個月由我們內政部來召開一次的籌備小組那是由我來擔任整個召集人"},{"start":2588.484,"end":2615.796,"text":"那籌辦小組目前各工作分組都依照新住民基本法的規定的業務的範疇那我們持續包括跨機關的盤點及確認新機關的應辦理的業務包括組織架構人員配置預算需求法律命令的修正那還有包括資訊系統的建立移轉辦公廳設計硬體的各項事宜那以備我們新機關成立之後的各項籌備工作另外在去年的11月18號我們也由移民署"},{"start":2616.636,"end":2644.545,"text":"警察廣播電台及中央廣播電台來合作我們也製播了新住民新力量的廣播節目來保障落實新住民的一個媒體禁用權新的機關將會統籌我們規劃研究諮詢協調推動及促進新住民包括就學就業賠利關懷協助及多元服務等諸多事宜那我們目前都已經完成了籌辦小組的工作那相關剛剛上述的各項的工作事項都已經在我們未來新"},{"start":2645.305,"end":2662.686,"text":"新機構成立之後的各項籌備來做一個銜接及試用那最後一個報告就是新機關的業務其實他的業務還相當的複雜也涉及到包括公權力的行行政的事務的跨不同目的事業主管機關相關的部分有包括勞動部教育部還有我們"},{"start":2664.524,"end":2690.454,"text":"文化部等等的還有相關的一個跨機關的一個複雜的作業那相關的籌備作業的我們的業務分工人員的移撥跟法規的研修我們都會照現行的運作規模之外我們會再再花更多的時間來要來積極相關的籌備工作來落實我們新住民各項權益的保障事宜以上報告也請各位委員指教好謝謝那下一位我們請蘇仁市長那蘇仁市長我們先請蘇仁市長"},{"start":2695.12,"end":2714.968,"text":"主席 各位委員大家好有關貴文輝召開審查內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案及內政部新住民發展組織法草案一樣本總處本要列是深感榮幸請就涉及本總處業務部分提出意見"},{"start":2716.432,"end":2730.65,"text":"內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案部分有關於內政部下設置新住民事務專責中央三級行政機關名稱定額新住民發展署本總處尊重內政部的意見"},{"start":2731.551,"end":2759.824,"text":"新住民發展署業務的範圍依新住民基本法第三條的規定該法所定的事項涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌者與各目的事業主管機關辦理為避免新住民發展署執掌與其他目的事業主管機關重疊或前者不明的部分建請內政部釐清內政部新住民發展署組織法草案部分有關第一條第二條"},{"start":2761.184,"end":2772.81,"text":"涉及機關前線執掌同前述內政部主事務法第五條修正草案意見 建請內政部釐清第三第四條有關首長副首長幕僚長的職稱官職等"},{"start":2776.132,"end":2805.248,"text":"岩耳部分 其中副所長的岩耳依中央行政機關組織基準法第十九條第三項的規定三級機關以下得設副所長至多三人經列常任的職務 又現行各機關依其業務量分別設置一至三人不等本總處尊重內政部的一個意見至於只等的部分應涉及官規官制這個是由情緒部來主管"},{"start":2805.808,"end":2831.249,"text":"第五條有關派員駐外辦事的部分依駐外機構組織通則第四條的規定各機關一起組織法定有派員駐境外辦事的規定者得洽外交部或派員與駐外機構相關內部單位或配屬機構辦理業務並受首屬駐外機構的指揮監督因為試射駐外之必要性及急迫性評估"},{"start":2832.229,"end":2846.707,"text":"這一部分我們會尊重外交部整體的一個評估以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝任市長請問一下提出書面報告機關有沒有需要口頭補充好"},{"start":2850.928,"end":2867.329,"text":"沒有 機關代表報告完畢 相關書面內容請各位參照並列入公報記錄提案說明還有報告機關已經進行完畢 現在開始進行詢答那因為今天喔這聯席會發言的人數比較多 所以我們一例本"},{"start":2868.27,"end":2887.482,"text":"聯席會委員尋答時間為6分鐘非聯席會委員尋答時間為3分鐘均不再延長因為接續我們還要進行法案的審查所以請各位委員能夠掌握今天尋答的時間上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員進行尋答"},{"start":2897.058,"end":2902.282,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請內政部次長以及我們人事行政總署的人事長兩位好2023年12月18號當時的副總統賴清德與總統候選人的身份在臉書上面發表了對新住民的承諾"},{"start":2923.513,"end":2935.246,"text":"包括了要強化新住民專責的單位要提升他的位階賴總統對新住民的承諾我相信應該還算數 沒有問題吧"},{"start":2938.646,"end":2953.364,"text":"請對著麥克風講話因為這樣子你的點頭沒有辦法進入立法院公報還算數吧這個行政院 我們就依照總統公布的就依照總統公布的這是賴總統的承諾嘛現在我問賴總統的承諾還算不算數算數嗎"},{"start":2958.751,"end":2985.512,"text":"應該符合規定我說賴總統的承諾算不算數你說應該符合規定總統已經發布施行了好來看一下賴總統的承諾啊在野黨幫他實現了我為什麼說在野黨幫他實現了去年7月16號新住民基本法第4條內政部應設置新住民事務專責中央三級行政機關"},{"start":2987.382,"end":3013.253,"text":"當初在立法院表決的時候在野黨、台灣民眾黨、中國國民黨的委員支持57票民主進步黨反對49票57比49的表決結果在新住民基本法裡面對於中央三級行政機關我們提供了一個重要基本法未接的法源基礎"},{"start":3014.895,"end":3041.101,"text":"今天我看到有民主進步黨的委員也針對組織法提出他們的修正草案我覺得這是一個好的方向基本法過了以後過了以後也認同這樣一個中央三級機關的立法方向所以也提出了組織法的修正草案非常的好希望今天能夠順利完成委員會的審查"},{"start":3043.168,"end":3067.205,"text":"但我們要追問的事情是說去年7月18號內政部說我們署的緣額已經滿了所以先成立新住民權益保障籌備處目前這個新住民權益保障籌備處的進度如何謝謝委員指教我想那個成立籌備小組的部分是由我先提一下我問的是籌備處籌備處成立了沒有"},{"start":3070.089,"end":3088.963,"text":"還沒還沒有成立從去年7月18號說要成立籌備處到現在已經六月了還沒有成立籌備處跟委員報告籌備小組跟籌備處的性質其實是一樣都是為了要未來成立發展署你回去看一下你們自己內政部的報告啦籌備處跟籌備小組一樣嗎現在籌備小組人力有幾個人"},{"start":3094.491,"end":3123.016,"text":"跟委員報告 我們籌備小組是由我擔任召集人是 那總共有幾個人幾乎是移民署的同仁都有參與全部你全部都把他移到籌備小組裡面去我們籌備小組只是個工作就是為了一個未來的組織是嘛 所以我就問你籌備小組有幾個人嘛有幾個人連員額都沒有不是 平常跟我開會大概都將近15個到20個所以你現在連籌備小組有幾個人的人數都定不下來喔"},{"start":3124.417,"end":3152.613,"text":"蛤?這樣是有在認真的籌備籌備處嗎?因為我看了你們的報告以後我是充滿困惑啊你們去年11月的時候發了一個聲明現在還在內政部的網站今天你們所提出來的工作報告市長你有沒有把你去年11月的聲明跟你們今天提給我們世化法治委員會的書面報告有沒有比對過?謝謝委員知道 我沒有做過這個比對好 你可以回去比對一下"},{"start":3153.717,"end":3178.427,"text":"因為我今天看你們的報告讀一讀似曾相識這個東西我讀過我後來回去啊稍微翻了一下我果然讀過你們今天六月提給司法法治委員的報告跟你們去年十一月寫的東西啊幾乎是一模一樣那我非常的驚訝所以我才在問嘛你們在籌備處"},{"start":3181.124,"end":3204.312,"text":"的進度到哪裡有多少人在做這個事有沒有把他當一回事認真啊在做你們說數不夠沒有關係我們雖然是在野黨執政黨的困難我們幫你們處理所以再度由台灣民眾黨黨團提出了中央行政機關組織基準法你們說數的人數滿了"},{"start":3206.668,"end":3228.111,"text":"執政黨不推動修法 沒關係 在野黨幫你們解決問題我們推動修法 三讀通過所以現在 數數目的法規限制也沒了現在提升到七十一個但大家關心的事情是說 進度牛步那為什麼會進度牛步"},{"start":3229.412,"end":3247.261,"text":"一個月就開一次會慢慢開看你要籌備到什麼時候我下一個問題新住民基本法當初我們要給行政院方便我沒想到我們每次給行政院方便行政院都當隨便新住民基本法什麼時候要公告實施"},{"start":3251.496,"end":3274.691,"text":"跟委員報告我想新住民基本法的施行的部分我們這個已經有報到行政院去了持續研議應該不會啦 我們的整個所以還要多久這個還是要看院理這邊所以還是要看院嘛所以我們的卓榮泰院長是不重視新住民的保障嗎不會啦 我們院長都很支持如果很支持可以拖這麼久什麼時候三讀通過了新住民基本法"},{"start":3275.97,"end":3289.698,"text":"你知道嗎去年七月現在幾月現在是六月一年啊那這個中間我們就是成立籌備小組對 籌備小組緣而不足的籌備小組持續籌備要籌備到什麼時候不知道什麼時候要公告私情不知道"},{"start":3300.714,"end":3329.457,"text":"對於我們的行政院來講 不想做的事能拖就拖 能混就混持續的研議 持續的拖延 持續的籌備這個就是我們的民進黨政府在面對我們新住民權益保障的態度嗎是這樣嗎來 請回答那我想照顧新住民這是我們內政部應該做的工作是 那就做嘛展現具體的行動出來嘛"},{"start":3331.138,"end":3356.03,"text":"你們現在告訴新住民朋友的是 我們很認真在研議啊研議了快一年啊 持續的研議啊新住民基本法什麼時候要公告執行 也不知道是這樣嗎謝謝委員 我們的籌組業務的 其實業務有超過非常的繁重 我知道所以呢 按照你們的能力業務這麼繁重 還要再籌備多久 再籌備三年夠不夠"},{"start":3358.272,"end":3381.033,"text":"再籌備三年到二零二八年再讓你開一次競選支票再騙一次票時間夠不夠夠不夠三年夠不夠三年還不夠那我想我這邊會配合行政院的來什麼時候要提出內政部組織法內政部新住民發展署組織法行政院版的草案有要提嗎"},{"start":3382.159,"end":3410.599,"text":"跟委員報告因為新住民事務繁瑣包括文化勞動衛福還有教育所以什麼時候送來也不知道我們會配合整個基本法實行後我們來推特今天我們修法有需要等你們嗎今天可不可以出委員會行政院會不會反對我們尊重委員會尊重委員會非常的好非常的好不要阻擋喔今天在有關於這些組織法的施行日期啊有鑒於新住民基本法"},{"start":3411.656,"end":3436.609,"text":"我們相信行政院把施行日期給行政院定沒想到行政院可以混成這個樣子到今天新住民基本法什麼時候要施行都不敢講今天台灣民眾黨黨團最後一條我們會提修正動議施行日期我會直接定下去我不會再給行政院機會了之前給你們機會給你們方便當隨便"},{"start":3440.03,"end":3466.025,"text":"讓新住民的朋友等了多久今天沒有這樣子的待遇了事情日期直接定下去希望到時候行政機關依法行政遵守法律 可以嗎可以嗎我想專中委員會好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來麻煩張志文可以 張志文請張志文委員代理主席"},{"start":3472.052,"end":3485.982,"text":"好 謝謝 下一位我們請吳宗憲召委諮詢謝謝 我們麻煩內政部次長 人事長還有移民署署長委員好"},{"start":3503.713,"end":3523.604,"text":"首先我先請教次長我們直接就開明見山的題我想請問一下一個問題就是有關這次租屋補貼的問題我想這個是大概全國人民很重視的一個議題所以我就放到今天也穿插進來請教一下"},{"start":3525.044,"end":3551.436,"text":"這個去年那個總統他在國慶演講的時候他競選的時候他就已經有講過協助百萬戶租屋加戶計畫還有國慶演講的時候他有提到說實現居住正義擴大對租屋族的照顧那去年也有提到說租金補貼要提升到75萬戶那行政院會通過300億的那個中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫"},{"start":3553.357,"end":3564.975,"text":"中央喔 兩個字 中央那中央會全數補助那怎麼為什麼現在又變了 又變成那個內政部長又說這個要改成地方要負責籌措部分的支出請問次長"},{"start":3565.939,"end":3591.702,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我想這邊簡單跟委員報告我想租金補貼的部分當然是賴總統的政策那我們目前的話大概已經實際上的租補案件是61萬戶所以目標70萬不變那至於剛剛委員所垂詢的部分就是有關這個租金的一個負擔支出那其實這個在最早的版本裡面其實地方本來就是也要負擔的不是啊 最早版本我不知道我只知道後來總統他講的叫做中央全數給予補助啊"},{"start":3592.463,"end":3611.866,"text":"我只知道你們提出來的叫做中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫你看一下PPT上面的嘛 這個是統籌由中央負責來做撥款所以中央統籌的意思就是中央開支票地方"},{"start":3613.596,"end":3642.532,"text":"地方付錢 中央請客地方買單這個在當時 我記得在1123年的時候其實就已經有這個的規範了就是說其實地方還是要負擔一定的不是啊 那這樣子等於又在騙人又在大內宣了嘛大內宣說我中央負責全額嘛然後實際要做的時候又說叫地方付那我又請教一下那為什麼中央不能付還是中央一開始中央的心態就是我只是開這個票 支票開出來就地方要一起付請問一下次長是哪一個"},{"start":3645.031,"end":3661.236,"text":"市長您是長賜嘛長賜一定很了解啊正賜我就不想多問了那請問一下長賜那到底這個是怎麼回事講一講又變地方要付錢謝謝委員的指教我想這個其實預算的部分其實我們每年在編包括那個"},{"start":3662.745,"end":3685.242,"text":"公務預算或相關的時候或者是我們訂定前瞻預算其實這一些的數額我們都會放在報給行政院的內容那這次的不是啊 你這問A答B啊你講這個東西就是編列預算的正常做法嘛我現在請教的問題是中央以及我剛秀給你看的PPT講得很清楚是中央付錢那現在要做的時候變成"},{"start":3686.479,"end":3704.32,"text":"票是中央開的 請客邀約的是中央 付錢的是地方我現在立體是這個 我不能問A答B啦好不好 您是常識不正識 不要學正識啦好不好 那請問一下為什麼變成是地方要付錢 甚至台北好像要到40%嘛"},{"start":3705.541,"end":3731.36,"text":"我們這個也應該跟今年的預算其實也有被刪減也有關啦又來了我跟你講你們又開始我跟你講內政部現在是造謠部啦內政部長我都已經告發了造謠他去搞他的台灣國嘛他就最愛搞台灣國最愛搞台灣國的主人他就去時間都花在搞這些還有在那邊騙人啦什麼租金補貼被刪光那這我已經依法告發了啦但我覺得這個都很糟糕"},{"start":3732.38,"end":3748.386,"text":"什麼時候中央的部會變成是造謠的大本營啦我跟你講啦那我在這邊再說一次說到都爛掉了今年的總預算史上最高啦比去年還多729億啦然後非法定義物支出是1.3兆那所謂的被刪的講說什麼636億那個只佔2%啦"},{"start":3751.707,"end":3769.428,"text":"然後在那邊跟全國說調整不了那不是比陳水扁跟張信雄時代更不如嗎張信雄時代他們的預算數更低啊而且被刪的更高650幾億還是多少人家從政府運作的順順利利的也平平安安的就今天到我們這裡來"},{"start":3771.27,"end":3783.542,"text":"廁所衛生直接買不起水也沒有水然後再來啦我跟你講我覺得很恐怖的就是這個政府我在那邊跟各位報告跟全國人民報告這很恐怖的是這個政府一般性補助款對的是"},{"start":3785.77,"end":3802.831,"text":"縣市裡面的一些教育的支出那個弱勢團體的支出你也敢砍租金補貼租屋族很辛苦你也敢砍你也叫地方付地方現在付不出來然後什麼都說是預算背三為了罷免可以這麼做我這也服了你們了齁"},{"start":3804.012,"end":3823.094,"text":"我覺得你又在這邊講預算支出我才跟你提這個不然我完全不想再提這個那個才化法的跟這個總預算的問題因為都講到爛掉了再講也沒有用所以你一下砍地方補助款一下砍租屋補貼每一刀都是砍向弱勢團體啦我跟你講啦您是事務官出身嘛我也是事務官出身的"},{"start":3823.755,"end":3845.584,"text":"我們都是為這個國家為這個人民在思考結果我今天看到的是政府是這麼做您是事務官出身但是您是次長你在這邊可能也不方便講一些話但是大家心裡應該都有感啦怎麼會政府會運作到今天這樣每一刀都是砍向弱勢團體而且去年還超收五千多億我真的覺得"},{"start":3847.152,"end":3875.631,"text":"這樣沒有辦法做事情那我請教一下移民署署長我們昨天辦公室有跟移民第二代他們的團體在座談那他們一直有提到一個點就是說他們覺得在跨部門的事項上面你們的聯繫是很不足的他們一直跟我們有這些抱怨那他們也擔心說日後成立這個新住民發展署會有一樣的問題請問署長在橫向聯繫上面是不是有出問題"},{"start":3877.261,"end":3899.735,"text":"報告委員 事實上我們這個在新住民相關事務的部分我們行政院有成立一個這個協調匯報那有關新住民的相關的跨部會的一些業務都是由這個行政院來召開新住民事務協調匯報就相關資源的整合這個部分由新住民事務協調匯報來協助做處理"},{"start":3902.27,"end":3919.566,"text":"所以你認為不會有問題目前為止是不會有太大的問題那我跟你講喔政府機關永遠說沒問題但是人民這些新住民二代他們一直覺得有問題所以我在這邊要跟署長說明這個狀況他們也擔心新住民發展署成立之後也會一樣"},{"start":3920.467,"end":3948.15,"text":"的問題會發生 所以我在這邊跟您說明一下是不是容我補充說明一下 因為我們新住民事務協調匯報他整個的這個 我們的這個委員裡面有29位委員那29位委員裡面其中有12位是新住民及其子女作為代表那其他的部分就是由學者專家跟所謂的機關代表所以其實在新住民及其子女的代表的比例裡面是"},{"start":3948.931,"end":3976.223,"text":"比較高的所以照理講在正常的狀況之下應該是我們新住民及其子女他應該有足夠的發聲的聲量以上不是啊我跟你講你現在講的是官方的說法但是我現在回應給你的是人民的感受這些團體他們來是二代新住民的二代他們這個團體來跟我們辦公室開會我們都有會議記錄我們的結論他們就是做這樣子的反應所以我要反應跟市長說也就是說我不可能一直說我做得多好啊"},{"start":3976.983,"end":4002.666,"text":"我一直這樣講對我做得多棒不可能會有問題但是使用者覺得有問題嘛消費者的回饋就是覺得有問題嘛那我就沒辦法說我自己很好公務機關如果你覺得自己做得非常好可是人民的感受不是如此好有關落差的部分我們會來加強溝通那請教一下任市長喔請問喔接下來我們有一些新住民的那個發展署"},{"start":4003.997,"end":4020.264,"text":"請問一下他們如果需要有一些人力的增列,這個人事總署這邊會同意增編嗎?這本來成立機關以後,該增的延遏,我想我們第一個階段會從移民署,他有一個移民事務署,那些人扛開,轉過來,出年不夠的話,我們會去倒傘"},{"start":4022.905,"end":4041.41,"text":"所以你們沒有問題嗎那我為什麼問這個問題就是因為那個劉世芳部長他一直說會與行政院人事總署跟主義總署研擬這個組織如何調整那至少我現在就聽到了就是人總這邊沒有問題那將來我就不能接受說內政部如果再跟我說人總這邊在"},{"start":4042.91,"end":4058.558,"text":"在卡住或什麼所以謝謝任市長告訴我這個沒問題最後20秒我說因為剛剛黃國昌委員有提到籌備處的問題那個次長因為我們看到就是劉思芳部長在4月的時候他口頭有說籌備小組已經開16次了"},{"start":4060.919,"end":4088.092,"text":"那我想說既然開了16次那你們應該有完整的這個小組的名單啦對不對應該有嘛應該不至於說照人剛剛說你也不知道這個小組有多少人齁所以要請次長再您是那個小組的召集人嗎我是召集人我主持過7次那移民署本身自己也召開過12次那其實小組成員都是我們跟移民署那甚至包括我們內政部的人事處相關單位都有派員"},{"start":4090.733,"end":4117.731,"text":"我們還是需要知道一些進度啦所以如果說你們那裡都沒有一個完整的資料給我們但我們也會疑惑所以請你們進度一定要出來好不好沒問題那就人事長這邊再麻煩您您剛也說說這個沒有問題嘛我想說因為有時候我會遇到一些主管會用人事處這邊人事總處在卡這個人力啦然後來回應好那就謝謝謝謝人事長"},{"start":4119.693,"end":4124.096,"text":"好 謝謝次長 謝謝署長好 謝謝吳宗憲、張偉 請吳宗憲、張偉繼續主持會議好 謝謝 我們下一位請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":4139.963,"end":4149.901,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們是不是有請各位委員各位官員早是不是有請內政部這個吳長志以及行政人事總署的蘇仁市長好 仁市長"},{"start":4151.254,"end":4156.219,"text":"阿維也好阿維也好阿維也好阿維也好阿維也好阿維也好"},{"start":4173.317,"end":4190.083,"text":"其他在野黨的委員也有提說現在目前還沒有正式的這個施行日期還沒有正式的上路所以這邊也希望說長期的部分可以繼續加油趕快讓行政院來公佈好不好可以嗎可以的謝謝那在第一本法第四條裡面有寫說內政部應該設置一個專責的三級機關就是這個"},{"start":4197.013,"end":4210.989,"text":"發展署的一個部分來統籌新住民的相關政策以及服務事宜那在去年12月的時候內政委員會在審內政部的預算當時劉思芳部長說114年的上半年本來就可以來讓將這個"},{"start":4213.471,"end":4239.298,"text":"組織法草案送到立法院審查可是今年的5月14號本席又在內政委員會請教劉世芳部長他跟我說他說要改到下會期才可以送進來那我今天看到內政部的報告裡面是寫說因為這可能牽扯到的內容相關的複雜需要相當的作業時間那我們有想先請教一下院版的時候這個常識有沒有覺得什麼時候可以收到立法院審查"},{"start":4241.342,"end":4262.561,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想總統公布之後其實我們在去年底已經把我們相關的資料都先報給行政院那也承諾我剛剛有跟大家報告其實因為這個整個新住民基本法裡面的新住民包括定義包括事務包括有涉及到剛剛講的文化教育衛福還有勞動那這些的部分都還需要再做跨機關的業務的審查"},{"start":4263.962,"end":4284.494,"text":"那我想我自己本身召開的儲備小組我還是會繼續找相關單位來看有沒有更好的經濟就是說因為新住民大家有很多委員非常關心因為現在新住民人數大概已經超過60萬了新住民家庭人數超過100萬所以我們才想說這個是非常的重要不管是新住民現在的很多的"},{"start":4285.494,"end":4300.026,"text":"這個就學教育等等醫療問題其實都急需一個專法來協助那其實我也要跟部長跟這個長治報告其實在去年在我們的新住民基本法在修法的時候其實也是"},{"start":4301.066,"end":4320.033,"text":"這個內政委員會我們先提出我們的版本然後在去年的4月29號先出審然後6月12號排第二次審查後送出委員會朝野協商在6月28號行政院才這個很慢的就是好像有點被趕鴨子上架來把版本送進來那我們希望說"},{"start":4321.293,"end":4346.088,"text":"最後在7月16號進行二三讀我們希望說這次行政院可以提早送進來版本不要這麼的趕這要拜託一下再來我們請教一下剛剛很多委員也有請教說過去你們也開了很多次有關的籌備小組的會議剛剛也有特別討論說籌備小組的人數跟成員可是我想比較重要的點是討論的內容是什麼"},{"start":4348.229,"end":4369.392,"text":"那因為很多委員好像有所知現在好像因為討論的內容非常的複雜那是不是可以請你簡單的講一下到底討論的內容這麼十幾次的籌備小組的內容大概具體的內容是什麼遇到什麼樣的困難是不是可以請你簡單去說一下那我想這個我們籌備小組去年成立之後目前我主持開過七次啦第一個是業務執掌"},{"start":4370.313,"end":4389.555,"text":"然後人員編制那甚至有辦公廳設還有未來的年度預算的編列那我們目前規劃的部分是4個組12顆總共會有將近100人的正式員額那這部分也都非常謝謝人事總署的幫忙那未來我們移民署的部分大概會將近快50個會移播到"},{"start":4391.081,"end":4414.616,"text":"新成立的這個新住民發展署那後續的部分其實我這邊其實比較簡單就是就業務執掌的內容的部分可能還需要規模跟經濟上的編制那這個部分當然我這邊也會請任總來給我們協助請問任總 請問蘇仁市長那剛剛所這個常次有講的人數的部分請問你們可以協助嗎現在有沒有什麼遇到什麼問題"},{"start":4416.636,"end":4435.708,"text":"事實上過去內政部跟我們大概開了22次會議那我們人總有參加了有跨部會協調有三次他們會把他們碰到問題我們會請你來協助他們所以目前來講沒有很大的問題我們都有一些SOP在處理那沒有問題"},{"start":4436.488,"end":4451.387,"text":"好OK好謝謝那我再請教一下剛剛這個長癡有講到我們的業務量很多那就報告的寫裡面的內容寫說現在竟有百項的業務那你剛有稍微提說總共分四個小組會把這百項的業務來處理"},{"start":4453.47,"end":4482.506,"text":"那其實我們在這個我們的草案的版本裡面也有寫說我們所要的職長的業務範圍內那就請這個內政部的部分來去對一下說看我們現在草案的部分跟你們現在內容的百項的業務內容是不是可以相符如果有需要有看過了嗎有沒有都符合我簡單跟委員報告那我們是依照新住民基本法裡面的內容所以我們從那個新住民基本法裡面的業務內容的架構我們才會把它分成四個組12課那如果有細項的部分到時候我再會有提供給委員"},{"start":4483.646,"end":4508.845,"text":"好那最後我請教一下齁其實剛剛講的嘛預算的部分那我現在比較擔心的一個點齁跟常事請教了一下如果今年在上半年度我們當然希望當然在野黨當然希望說可以提早通過啦那剛剛當然部長是說希望到下個會期才通過我覺得大家還可以協商齁不過我覺得還是要尊重立法院我們照顧新住民權益的一個努力啊那我在想請教的是說那如果因為現在這個"},{"start":4510.406,"end":4525.116,"text":"這個年度其實預算已經在編列當中了那如果這個會期什麼時候通過法案的時候可以讓我們的新住民發展署在明年上路大概整個期程你可不可以稍微解釋一下我簡單跟委員報告因為我們現在目前"},{"start":4526.937,"end":4532.002,"text":"我們預計明年 因為我們剛好正在籌備115年的預算我們也出估針對新住民發展署成立之後 未來的年度規模大概會到7億多"},{"start":4542.791,"end":4564.49,"text":"人事的部分大概將近100多人那還有10個月聘僱那我們年度的預算會在7億那以今年來講在如果在今年如果要可以先成立之後可以去推動我們目前預估也會大概要今年的話剩下大概還要籌1億8那這個1億8的部分的新增的業務內容都是依照基本法的內容我們去做盤整的所以預算的部分今年度"},{"start":4565.871,"end":4590.125,"text":"有機會在明年今年會先編明年的預算嗎今年現在正在編明年的有編這個新住民發展署的預算因為現在才六月那再來的話就今年的部分如果有需要用的部分我們會用追加有機會要追加預算所以如果我們今年法令不管在上半年或下半年通過這個法令其實新住民發展署是有機會有預算可以在明年度使用今年的話就只能走追加對"},{"start":4590.885,"end":4603.964,"text":"然後如果不夠的可以走追加的部分就對了好那最後一個問題喔時間的關係喔那我最後想請教我們新住民發展署的地點上次我詢問大概在新北或是台北那現在有比較具體的地方可以透露嗎"},{"start":4605.173,"end":4623.003,"text":"簡單跟委員報告 其實那個第一個要挑盡量離中央各部會比較近的啦那我們可能會在落腳或是台北跟新北我們都有在考慮幾個點所以還沒有完全確定都還沒確定 都還沒確定好 那希望說我們內政部可以繼續來努力那我們樂觀其成 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 下一位我們請蘇巧慧委員發言"},{"start":4640.424,"end":4642.013,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請吳次長麻煩次長"},{"start":4647.311,"end":4672.956,"text":"市長好 市長我們今天是要來討論這個新住民發展署的組織法草案那這個我必須說有一點遺憾因為當時我們在討論這個新住民基本法的時候其實大家都知道新住民已經現在是台灣不可分割不可或缺的組成我們都非常非常的期待大家是一起為這塊土地努力 沒有錯"},{"start":4673.556,"end":4701.069,"text":"所以政府也應該要照顧這些新來的夥伴能夠盡快的加入這個大家庭並且權益要能夠受到保障這就是我們對所謂新住民的態度而且第一代來這裡的時候他叫新他的第二代是新住民的子女但是到第三代第四代呢其實我們在場甚至包括在場所有的人都來自不同的地方上述到幾代沒有人是相同的但今天我們全部都是台灣人"},{"start":4701.909,"end":4721.367,"text":"所以新住民之子的在下一代在下一代是不是還是新住民當時都有很清楚的在討論過所以這部這個基本法也好或者是法規也好當時就說新住民定義是新住民本身以及新住民之子放在新住民基本法是這樣子討論來的"},{"start":4722.768,"end":4752.185,"text":"好 我要先講這個前提是在於說大家都想照顧新加入台灣的夥伴這個沒有問題可是當時的法規制度到底是要用什麼樣的法治條例來讓這一部法律文字能夠對新朋友新住民更多的保障當時就有兩種派別嘛第一個是基本法也就是在凌駕在所有其他法律之上的一個通則一個像憲法一樣的精神所有的法律在基本法之下都要臣服嘛這是基本法"},{"start":4752.685,"end":4770.617,"text":"好 但是 但是因為新住民的相關事務實在涉及太多面向了你看看今天來的部會有多少單位還有所有未來我們要討論的問題從教育 社福 這個甚至是勞動太多了啦 勞動不只啦 實在太多 等一下請你講"},{"start":4771.698,"end":4789.534,"text":"所以當時就想說那會不會有彼此漢格的地方所以本基於剛剛要說的保護 保障新加入的朋友的這一群人我們是不是用一個作用法的形態所以當時我們的主張是新住民權益保障法"},{"start":4790.674,"end":4809.667,"text":"讓這個法跟其他法有一個空間可以互相流通這是這樣的狀況可是當時本黨的委員我們這邊的委員因為人數比較少所以後來就通過了基本法基本法也很好啦 就通過了啦那通過了以後那現在要開始落實了我們現在在討論相關的法規署長"},{"start":4812.689,"end":4822.418,"text":"市長不好意思市長我想請問你一下你現在開了七次的會議你剛剛說七次嘛是七次的會議理論上是就剛剛所有相關方方面面的問題你要去盤整盤點以至於解決甚至是為了解決而設計再寫出新的相關的法條出來這樣我們今天才能夠有所謂的法條來討論嘛"},{"start":4837.031,"end":4863.626,"text":"那顯然你因為說就是因為這麼複雜啊所以院版的還沒有能夠今天呈現在委員會上面但反過來有這麼多的委員已經有版本了來 次長 我現在就要問你第一 你在這七次會議當中有遇到哪一些問題這些問題是否如同當時我們講的確實是有漢格之處以至於困難難解到底有還是沒有是我們多慮了呢還是實務上真的有這樣發生"},{"start":4864.907,"end":4884.376,"text":"第二如果確實有這個漢格的發生的話那你現在要怎麼解今天所有的委員版因為都不是院版嘛委員版當中是不是就有因為我們擔憂的這種狀況所以如果他就現在先寫成委員版的條文是不是通過以後反而會造成更大的麻煩市長請回答"},{"start":4887.362,"end":4914.213,"text":"好謝謝委員那我想我主持的七次的整個籌備小組的部分其實會先都是先琢磨在新住民基本法的內容那它的內容的部分所以我們在檢視的時候我們到底是說到底要幾個科要承辦什麼業務所以我們就依照基本法裡面的劃分裡面去研究那去研究了之後其實才發現說其實包括有教育的部分有文化的部分有勞動的部分就業的部分甚至還有有關"},{"start":4915.774,"end":4933.222,"text":"媒體宣傳應該不是才發現啦是更確認啦就是因為這樣所以我們在組別的時候我們就會先找各相關部會就是原本有一些是在各部會工作的部分那我們就要跟他協調是把這業務部分是連同人移播過來或者是業務移播過來人們移過來所以我們一直在開這個會"},{"start":4933.902,"end":4955.523,"text":"因為事實上比如說勞動好了我新住民在一個地方上班會牽涉到的勞動到底是以人為界線所有的我在這裡上班所以我所有未來碰到的東西以後都變成是移民署這邊來處理還是是勞動部那我和一個台灣現在的本地的人這樣子的兩個人的狀況到底這件事情要怎麼處理"},{"start":4956.944,"end":4977.669,"text":"這個會不會有這樣的問題?就是會有,所以我們包括像教育部的部分,包括教育事業、教育就業那這些的部分其實例如說通譯等等的那這個在基本法裡面有規範的部分,我們都要找教育單位來做確定還有我想國人也相當關心的,因為我們的新住民主城是來自於新住民他們來自多個不同的國家,包括中國"},{"start":4978.869,"end":4993.466,"text":"那所以到底是先適用兩岸人民關係條例還是先適用這個新住民的這個部分那您怎麼回答是 謝謝委員長那我想在新住民基本法第二條裡面他當時是把婚姻移民之外還有包括專業技術移民也要保障新住民子女"},{"start":4993.846,"end":5010.182,"text":"其實我們目前新住民定義的部分其實在婚姻移民的部分這邊就佔的蠻多的啦是就佔的蠻多那其實這個佔的蠻多之外那有些是還要分兩種他的身分別是什麼第二個他有沒有取得國人身分那如果取得國人身分其實就是我們的國民啦我們的認為是這樣子"},{"start":5011.303,"end":5034.913,"text":"那我們經統計這樣子的話 目前新住民基本法適用就超過50萬那他未來還會繼續受陸委會的管轄嗎 依然要人民關係條例這個部分就是還要再進一步 要進一步進行是嘛 所以就是有這麼多問題 到底解決到哪裡了 還是還沒有到底是解決的前期 還是已經快解決完了 還是是什麼狀況跟委員報告 我想這部分我們都還會跟陸委會還要再確認有關婚配移民的部分"},{"start":5035.453,"end":5052.262,"text":"我想我今天用全部的時間 其實我準備非常多題目啦因為其實如果要具體下去的話我個人最關心的是包括通譯制度的部分那時候我們在審查基本法的時候甚至有做了附帶決議要求內政部既有的通譯制度要能夠更精進甚至要有專責的這個單位來做統一 全國統一各族群統一的這個通譯制度不過呢"},{"start":5058.965,"end":5067.968,"text":"我覺得與其在這裡進入到細節的討論不如是我們大家一起尤其是今天是內政和司法的聯繫我們再一起回憶一次當時我們要做這部法律的時候其實是為了保障新加入台灣的朋友們新住民的權益讓他們可以更好的生活在這塊土地上更快的融入這個社會這是我們的本意"},{"start":5083.954,"end":5098.07,"text":"但如果我們因為這部法律以及如果我們要倉促上路後面的相關配套倉促上路的話那麼我認為有可能反而會得不償失因為牽涉的方面可能太"},{"start":5098.831,"end":5119.837,"text":"太多了我反而會覺得應該是內政部是不是應該不管是在內政委員會也好因為這是我們的本業嘛你們應該定期提出專報跟我們報告說現在進度到哪裡了我們戰不戰成這樣的方向大家都戰成了之後有共識之後再劃約為文字一次到位這樣大家才能得到最好的保障"},{"start":5120.097,"end":5139.405,"text":"而不是今天就已經就現在的委員的各版本在沒有院版的狀況下沒有共識甚至是沒有會議已經有定論的狀況下就開始處理這樣的法案這是我個人的意見啦好 謝謝那我們下一位請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":5152.409,"end":5177.509,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請內政部次長還有考選部 權序部跟陸委會考選部 權序部 陸委會 請代表上台好 部長你是這個新住民這個發安署的籌備的負責人 不管叫什麼職稱這個我們在新住民定義裡頭 跟中國人 中國人"},{"start":5180.405,"end":5189.933,"text":"那是新住民嘛 中國人有中華民國國籍 比新住民來 陸委會委員好請問一下 你的報告裡面說新住民新的單位 發展署 新立了啦叫你們不應用 都叫你們不關 是這樣嗎"},{"start":5205.799,"end":5220.824,"text":"報告委員 陸委會的意思是說我們沒有業務跟人員要移撥但不是說這個新住民的照顧跟陸委會無關陸委會的那個報告不是這個意思業務沒有要移撥所以中國的新住民 要找陸委會沒有找這個新的署"},{"start":5227.513,"end":5251.358,"text":"報告委員 因為陸委會負責是政策協調沒有啦 我這麼問你是好 海基委啦 陸委會 海基委中國的新住民 來到台灣之後有新住民身份 不用找這個書啊我們還是再找你們陸委會跟海基委對不對都是一起合作的啊不是一起合作啦 現在就是中國的新住民回到台積啊我們還是要提供協助啊"},{"start":5253.496,"end":5269.564,"text":"還是要提供協助市長找你們嗎我想是婚姻移民的部分是新住民身份依照基本法第二條規定的那我相信這個陸委會跟我們的話應該是合作分工啦你們討論過嗎"},{"start":5271.695,"end":5298.524,"text":"呃 我召開小組的部分也有請陸委會來給我們一些意見阿有分工了沒我們還在討論還沒定案當然啦 因為我們因為陸委會報告裡面說業務沒有移撥剛剛陸委會講的部分是指那個就既有的業務哪一些是要移撥到新住民的是這個部分 是純粹細項的業務好 那它沒有移撥 那你們的業務你們這個新的 這個屬的業務有跟中國新住民有關的嗎"},{"start":5302.067,"end":5322.301,"text":"應該是身份別啦身份別如果他是大陸的配偶是婚姻移民的部分那當然跟新住民就有關了好第二我請問一下考選部或全序部啦來有雙重國籍的人可不可以當中華民國的公務員"},{"start":5323.939,"end":5337.052,"text":"法委員依照公務人考試法要取得戶籍有身份才能參加公務人考試好所以我們這個新的署的署長、副署長、主任、秘書可不可以是中國人在上面回答"},{"start":5344.778,"end":5365.711,"text":"依據公園任用法的規定就是不能有雙重國籍那至於兩岸條例有規定說就是如果是大陸地區人民的話那兩岸條例有相關規範規定是什麼啦?現在就一個中國人啦"},{"start":5367.237,"end":5376.483,"text":"中國人婚姻移民來台灣啊,是中華民國的國籍啦他是中國人啦,是中華民國國籍,他可不可以當署長或署長主任秘書啦這個是在兩岸條例裡面的規範,所以兩岸條例因為這是屬於陸委會的權責來,陸委會"},{"start":5393.157,"end":5415.308,"text":"報告委員 依照兩岸條例第21條的規定那大陸人如果取得台灣的身份必須涉及滿10年才可以擔任公教人員所以他前提是要拿到身份證之後還要滿10年那他要當署長 要不要出事他放棄中華人民共和國的戶籍那依照工人任用法嗎"},{"start":5416.826,"end":5426.092,"text":"依照任用法的規定就是說 如果當事人他沒有辦法放棄國籍不可規則於他的話 那不只是中國大陸啦那現在中國人很聰明啦 不會國籍 戶籍 我在說戶籍出事要放棄戶籍證明 他可以來做我們這個署的署長"},{"start":5437.299,"end":5464.882,"text":"包委員依照兩岸條例他一定要放棄大陸的戶籍在拿到台灣身份證之後三個月內他一定要返回大陸取得註銷戶籍的證明資料給移民署好 現在最近不是在查這個什麼戶籍放棄的嗎對 現在正在查好 他就搞不出來他說年代久遠啊交不出來的那交不出來你們有變通方法嘛 對不對對 我們有一些這變通料也當作署長戶署長主任秘書了啦包委員"},{"start":5466.593,"end":5492.666,"text":"如果是他有特殊的狀況的時候,我們有說他可以拒絕或延後但是他本身如果還是拒絕,他還是拒有這可以嗎?他可以做署長、副署長、主任秘書嗎?如果是屬於大陸地區人民的部分,這還是有依照兩岸條例的規定辦理你不是全序部的嗎?"},{"start":5494.507,"end":5514.081,"text":"我們主管公人任用法,那至於大陸地區人民,因為他比較特殊,所以他的相關規範是在兩岸條例裡面去規範我正在問,你題目就這樣,不是啦,你全序部,他要來叫我們署長、副署長、主任、秘書,叫三名給他送到全序部去,你總是要準啊,不準啊"},{"start":5515.791,"end":5532.788,"text":"就是我們會就是針對兩岸條例規範的相關內容如果有疑義的話我們還是會把你那雞頭鴨講這題目這麼清楚中外民國詮釋部的派來的人回答不出來中國人可以做我們的署長或是主席秘書詮釋部說不出來你敢不想哭啊你敢不想哭"},{"start":5543.683,"end":5550.267,"text":"你到底是在怕什麼啦,可以就可以,不行就不行啊這公文三號你回家,你還要去問陸委會他如果說還是屬於大陸地區人民的話,他是不能擔任公務人員好,來,接下來這一個考選部"},{"start":5566.209,"end":5574.555,"text":"這個委員有人提案,說醫療新住民的國家考試,由這個新的單位來負責,你的看法呢?我們中華民國有任何的新分,科技交給部會去科技的嗎?"},{"start":5585.305,"end":5613.855,"text":"包委員這部分確實跟考試院的限定職長還有考選部的組織的權責有漢格之處那我進一步說明一下那是憲法規定的啦是是是因為考試考試為考試院長理的事項嘛那考試院為了辦理所謂的全國公務人員考試跟專門接技術人員考試的考選行政所以設有考選部那考選部依照我們的組織法的事項你是有意的啦對 是"},{"start":5614.775,"end":5632.377,"text":"你們是唯一的嘛 是是是啊所以這條你們要堅持啊有 我們有提出書面意見你怎麼說我們交通部的 要考什麼的 他們都叫交通部自己去考取外交部的 都叫外交部來去考取中外民國的國家要考取的就是考選部府級嘛考試院的考選部府級嘛"},{"start":5633.258,"end":5639.164,"text":"我們為了某一個新聞 說那個新聞的科技 國家考試 要做中華民國公務人員那個單位自己科技 自己任用 開一條門之下這不通 這不通 這你們要堅持有 我們有提書面報告好 謝謝"},{"start":5653.12,"end":5671.372,"text":"那個王偉遠你需不需要他們用書面回覆你剛剛那個問題不用啦不用喔因為這個喔我剛剛王偉遠的問題真的非常的清楚我都想要站起來幫你回答了結果你一直回答不出來是不是你們要先弄清楚因為剛剛他講的他的問題非常非常的明確啊我不懂為什麼答不出來"},{"start":5674.54,"end":5686.986,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 這個還是有犧牲機關 我是說剛剛王委員的問題真的非常的明確對 非常非常 因為這法規上面都有 而且應該用的是兩岸條例 跟國際法也無關好 那我們下一位請黃婕委員"},{"start":5700.029,"end":5705.236,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們請內政部的次長麻煩次長"},{"start":5710.342,"end":5737.433,"text":"好次長好首先想要先跟您請教一下因為其實我們當初在審這個新住民的基本法的這個審理過程前面有一個非常重要的前提就是因為其實新住民的身份是一個過渡的他並不是永久的所以其實當初我們在說到底要基本法還是權益保障法的時候就經過一番爭論了因為其實我們知道說新住民的身份就是不是像原住民或客家的族群他就是是長久的身份"},{"start":5738.934,"end":5760.876,"text":"那隨著時間的推移那之後他融入台灣身份然後甚至拿到國籍之後其實是會改變的那也就是說他之後可能就會變成台灣人所以這個新住民的基本法對我來說我一直過不去的點就是他是一個過渡期的保障的權益的保障的一段期間但是我們現在卻要不斷的用基本法來涵蓋這整個"},{"start":5762.558,"end":5768.82,"text":"新住民的範圍這其實是蠻衝突的一件事情那就例如說已經取得身份證的新住民他之後其實就是台灣人嘛就應該要跟國人是享有同等的義務跟權利的那針對這段過度的時間給予適當的協助融入台灣的社會然後彌平這個落差然後不要永久的標籤化他們是新住民這個我認為才是一個對的目標啦"},{"start":5789.747,"end":5807.096,"text":"所以今天討論這個新住民的組織法必須要在這樣的前提之上我認為非常重要才知道說到底在這段期間怎麼保障他們的權益怎麼樣在這個組織法裡面進行這一些權責的分配那我看了一下其實今天這個我們要真的要進到細則的這個權責分配就會變得非常的複雜"},{"start":5810.598,"end":5828.118,"text":"就例如說我認為裡面涵蓋了各式各樣的部會其實都是衝突的甚至是重疊的就例如說我隨便舉個例子例如說這個有一個委員裡面有提到說如果新住民署裡面的人權保障跟歧視的申訴這樣子的業務應該是哪一個單位負責"},{"start":5832.082,"end":5852.899,"text":"那他說接下來要由新住民的發展署來負責但其實我們目前在行政院的人權處就有這樣子的工作了所以到時候是說如果是新住民的身份這段期間是要把這個業務撥給新住民發展署然後那他成為國人之後再撥回人權處是這個意思嗎"},{"start":5853.939,"end":5873.694,"text":"謝謝委員指教我想我們這次也是依照新住民基本法的內容那也成如剛剛委員所談的因為有些像人權性別歧視或者是不公平待遇的部分那其實在院裡面其實都有分工啦沒錯 性平處人權處其實針對這一些申訴的管道跟這一些負責其實都有嘛"},{"start":5874.775,"end":5890.931,"text":"那目前這個意思就是說如果他是新住民身份那不好意思你就是專責在這個新住民發展所裡面處理那如果你等你不是新住民身份你成為國人了那我們再重新回到人權處跟性平處是這個意思嗎所以這個就是有漢格的地方"},{"start":5891.491,"end":5919.606,"text":"那要怎麼處理那我這邊也跟委員報告那其實新住民只要取得我國國民身份的話其實就是國人那新住民基本法照他的架構來講應該是說婚姻移民專業技術跟新住民子女但是新住民子女他其實慢慢就已經融入國人了那照理講我們是要照顧新住民啦但是不是說把他做一個標籤化或區隔化應該是要這樣那剛剛委員所垂詢的一些相關的業務內容那這也是我們目前跟幾個部會要去做釐清的那有些是在"},{"start":5919.926,"end":5942.722,"text":"沒有啊 我今天就是來希望我們進入實質的討論因為等一下就要準備主條了嘛這個就是今天最大的問題啊就是你們跟各部會之間的權責到底有漢格之處怎麼釐清這就是大家今天想知道我這邊只是舉個例子喔後面還有包括新住民廣播電視規劃新住民國家考試的規劃甚至教育協助的規劃督導"},{"start":5944.063,"end":5958.114,"text":"這些他全部都放在裡面很多委員版本裡面都有所以到時候考選部文化部NCC教育部這些大家所有的部會的權責是只要是新住民身份全部都放在發展署嗎是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5959.861,"end":5986.898,"text":"我很想知道啊就包括其實剛剛一川委員這個問題也是啊難道新住民身份的如果跟其他部會夜館的職務有衝突的時候是直接以這個為主嗎因為他其實他的根據是新住民的基本法那基本法的這個他的法律位階是很高的也就是說所以我們接下來所有就是把新住民跟國人切開嗎那這樣子真的好嗎"},{"start":5988.662,"end":6003.135,"text":"謝謝委員我想就是因為跟其他相關目的事業主管機關的主管法規其實都有衝突的地方那這個部分這個就是我們要去釐清的所以我希望你在這裡釐清啊什麼叫做你們要去釐清的"},{"start":6003.715,"end":6008.1,"text":"所以這才要跟各部會再去做進一步的業務分工要做確認那你們討論過了嗎 開過會了嗎我剛剛隨便提幾個部會就已經非常多了人權處 性平處 考選部 文化部 教育部 甚至NCC這個全部他把所有的職長都放在裡面"},{"start":6024.238,"end":6039.13,"text":"所以我們才會認為說這個部分是應該有些是不應納入啦真的有些是不應納入所以等一下我們進到主條的時候你會一一的告訴我們哪一些不應納入在這個組織法裡面是這樣子嗎如果可以讓我提供意見我一定會提供我一定會講"},{"start":6039.87,"end":6055.942,"text":"那我現在就是希望你提供啊那其實在這個條文內容有些比較不適宜像社會保險法律諮詢像考試權任用像這些部分其實這個都有關係啦因為我們目前這個都不是院的版本所以那院的版本"},{"start":6058.02,"end":6085.079,"text":"這個也要跟我們報告所以我們還是要先把剛剛講的衛福 勞動 文化 教育這些如果都不釐清其實就來把組織法來這邊做討論所以其實前面還有非常多定義的問題要先釐清這就是希望今天在進入實質討論之前大家可以先把定義弄清楚否則今天的討論很難進行下去好嗎了解好 謝謝次長好 謝謝下一位我們請張宏祿委員發言"},{"start":6098.977,"end":6124.875,"text":"來我請次長麻煩次長喂好次長我們今天在討論這個法案之前在內政委員會有討論大家對要訂基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧我相信這個次長也知道次長我請問一下對新住民我們要不要照顧要"},{"start":6125.697,"end":6153.515,"text":"要嘛 我也認為要啊但有很多的新住民他也不願意一輩子人家稱呼他新住民吧對 應該不要標籤化不要標籤化對啊 我覺得內政部啊可以對我們新住民這些做一個民調看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民或是他希望人家以後就跟他講你是中華國"},{"start":6155.287,"end":6177.33,"text":"民國的國民你就是台灣人我覺得你們可以去做一些這個民調讓社會大眾知道我覺得很多人跟我講說他不想永遠都被叫新住民啊而且對他的下一代好像也覺得不勝公平啊對不對所以社會上有不同的聲音而且次長"},{"start":6179.98,"end":6189.689,"text":"如果新住民拿到台灣中華民國的身份證他到底是不是中華民國的國民"},{"start":6192.105,"end":6220.257,"text":"包委當然是拿到身份證拿到身份證之後那一刻他的身份是不是就轉變了他就是國人他的身份是不是轉變了我要次長你要說這一句他的身份是不是就是轉變為國人他的身份已經轉變了是的 拿到身份證一定是中華民國的國民對嘛所以我們要保障我們要照顧新住民確實是要"},{"start":6221.431,"end":6238.144,"text":"但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法把他的身份框一輩子把他身份框一輩子好像覺得說對他特別照顧但其實也有某種相對一個反面的"},{"start":6239.11,"end":6252.976,"text":"感覺他是不同的人他永遠融入沒有辦法融入台灣這個社會永遠沒有辦法真正成為一個台灣人會不會有這種情況啊 市長"},{"start":6254.102,"end":6280.725,"text":"是 其實我們我當然會希望新住民基本法這個去施行的結果是第一個是要讓他成為我國國民之後融入台灣社會這才是我們的目的啊那對於他的其他的業務如何融入在文化教育或者是就業給予一些協助我想這才是應該新住民基本法的最主要目的融入之後然後成為我國的國民當然就是我國的國民就依照我們國民的相關規定沒有還有一個很重要的觀點"},{"start":6282.253,"end":6310.498,"text":"我們的原住民族基本法原住民族他是在台灣這塊土地上他有特殊的文化他有特殊的傳統他們的風俗而且他是比我們都還找到台灣這塊土地的人所以他有他的特殊性他有他的文化歷史幾千年來的你一個移民到台灣來的人他應該是最想要融入台灣吧"},{"start":6311.778,"end":6331.009,"text":"是不是應該是對啊那應該是我們用法律把他框住了框住他不能變為真正的台灣人我覺得這個好像是有點說不過去我們要保障是他在到台灣的時候還沒有拿到"},{"start":6331.949,"end":6356.412,"text":"身份證的時候這一段的期間我們要去輔導他去保護他有一些這一點應該是一個短暫的時刻而不是永遠我覺得舉例來講美國算是一個很大的移民社會吧美國有這些法律嗎雖然沒社會但是我相信都是一個文化不同的世界移民到美國我跟你講"},{"start":6357.677,"end":6385.818,"text":"你要成為美國公民的時候不是要宣誓你現在開始這一刻就是美國公民然後你要盡很多的義務什麼的這個就很簡單啊美國是一個最大的移民社會啊那我們要讓任何人來台灣我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同台灣而不是把他框住你要把保護他要什麼是一段的過程而且今天的修法"},{"start":6387.579,"end":6402.285,"text":"還有說國家考試要保障這個新住民我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善雖然這不是你的業務我不知道次長你的看法"},{"start":6404.086,"end":6429.479,"text":"謝謝委員那我想我們國家的規定其實有行政院有立法院有考試院等等相關的院那各有各的職長跟權責啦那我相信國家考試任用這是考試院的權責所以我們內政部其實就算我們是三級機關未來這個成立之後新住民發展署其實也應該不能逾越這個考試的權責是這樣子不過重點是如果他可以參加國家考試"},{"start":6430.848,"end":6441.497,"text":"他要不要有台灣的身份證他是不是中華民國的國民重點是在這裡啊我覺得要統一啦因為只要是國民應該享有權利義務都是平均的"},{"start":6442.106,"end":6459.952,"text":"對啊他已經拿到身份證了他才能去參加國家考試啊對不對我們是要保障他在拿到身份證這之前我們要好好的保障他我覺得台灣啊雖然也是個移民社會但台灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜我們不要把它搞複雜在國外"},{"start":6462.313,"end":6483.738,"text":"還有難民的問題台灣目前是沒有的我們就跑好把新住民該給的照顧把它做好不要複雜化這樣子我覺得把它複雜化新住民也不是他的福利啦不知道部長你的看法 次長你的看法謝謝委員 我想委員剛剛講的部分其實我個人十分認同好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":6504.863,"end":6513.796,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長麻煩次長委員好次長好委員好"},{"start":6515.231,"end":6544.17,"text":"從頭到尾聽了覺得你真的很為難但是新住民基本法從去年就是7月16號通過後依法內政部必須要成立新住民發展署當然我也了解成立一個署需要一定的行政跟時間所以將近一年的時間裡我持續針對新住民發展署也做了進度的質詢"},{"start":6545.211,"end":6568.79,"text":"但是非常辛苦爭取到的足夠三級機關的源額但是沒想到部長,我們的內政部長之前質詢的時候,居然說跟全民說我們三級機關已滿了連爭取這個已經通過,他都不知道所以上個月呢,省預算"},{"start":6569.671,"end":6595.256,"text":"解凍案的時候部長說相關的法律需要時間也需要行政總署協調所以沒辦法提出來剛才我們的行政總署也說開了22次的會內容是什麼但我們同樣來看了去年8月行政院宣布體育署升格為體育"},{"start":6597.296,"end":6606.446,"text":"體育部的時候呢原本的體育署改為全民運動署的字號改名後來呢又再這樣子的"},{"start":6608.54,"end":6636.507,"text":"組織草案早早就在去年11月排入院會也順利在許多委員的提出版本裡面達成共識在今年1月也三讀通過所以當一樣的事情輪到內政部毫無進度從通過基本法直到今天已經超過11個月了要審查新住民發展署的組織法"},{"start":6637.967,"end":6652.732,"text":"各委員包含臺灣民眾黨都提出版本可是我們依然看不到院版也看不到內政部的版本我們要如何去討論不要說過去 說都說過去 說快點所以我們希望我們的市長剛才你說你開了七次的會議七次的會議你跟誰開 怎麼開的"},{"start":6666.53,"end":6669.664,"text":"你最了解嘛所以你回答以上"},{"start":6671.004,"end":6700.624,"text":"好謝謝委員指教我想過去籌備小組的七次會議包括組織編制依照新住民基本法的內容的內容我們做業務分工所以我們已經研擬完成大概四個組有12個科那再來就是人員的編制那人員編制我們這邊也跟人總這邊所以你說你開了四次七次我看到七次你七次裡面的是籌備小組嘛但是呢七次裡面我要的資料"},{"start":6701.704,"end":6724.212,"text":"有主題沒有記錄也沒有內容各部會公文跨部會的公文在哪裡完全沒有你說的7次內政部給我的公文12次一樣只有主題沒有記錄也沒有內容也沒有跨部會的公文剛才我們的總之總數說22次"},{"start":6726.843,"end":6729.185,"text":"用噴的啦 人家都在吹啊 在說謊所以呢這個就是我們覺得說 體育部做到 內政部卻遲遲提不出來這樣到底是部長說有困難 還是單純不想做"},{"start":6744.815,"end":6765.031,"text":"法治是規劃新住民發展署不可缺的一部 這個是依法行政 不是叫你去做的啦但是內政部行呢 開會的記錄就是這樣就是整理出來每一次開會 沒有時間 沒有地點 也沒有各部會 這樣叫做開會 還是"},{"start":6767.918,"end":6788.784,"text":"什麼會 統內會吧我們可以看到的第五次跟第十二次的記錄裡面就是主題沒有記錄都有討論說新的機關組織草案但是關於說明的草案到現在目前的進度如何有沒有初步的版本讓我們能一起討論對不對 版本沒有"},{"start":6794.305,"end":6818.202,"text":"討論那麼多次浪費資源浪費大家的時間事實上有沒有討論又不知道所以討論什麼討論了我們中央組織要去改組織的時候體育部的時候你們要討論怎麼樣一起來提啊完全沒有當我們已經台灣民眾黨爭取到新住民發展署附帶決議三讀通過這個"},{"start":6821.789,"end":6848.375,"text":"然而也準備好給你們了你們還是沒有討論到連部長都不知道討論在哪裡去了所以呢關於哪個部會在哪裡完全不知道所以開會紀錄也沒有所以在問說我們的內政部第五條裡面的內容我們新住民事務從移民署獨立出來的由我們發展署負責所以"},{"start":6849.395,"end":6876.898,"text":"那麼單純直接的修法因為看不到版本只要七條而已但是你們討論那麼多次你們是不做還是沒有能力做還是無能做要說清楚吧完全沒有所以呢這個不是說修法什麼這樣的意見所以我們感覺就是剛才我們的王一川委員說你們中國你們中國新住民"},{"start":6878.45,"end":6883.063,"text":"你們也說不要歧視這個中國能不能當署長"},{"start":6884.468,"end":6905.933,"text":"中國不能當署長新住民在台灣可以當署長誰說的剛才我們王傑委員說我們一樣的我們新住民拿到台灣的身份證是一樣權利一樣對不對權利一樣職權也是要一樣吧你們說要一樣一定要一樣啊為什麼這個人又說不一樣這個人又說不一樣對不對這裡也說不一樣但是呢我們張綺路委員又說"},{"start":6912.85,"end":6938.975,"text":"你拿到身份證那一刻你就是台灣人那一刻是台灣人不要分不要分為什麼有權力有職長有官位就要分所以說我們民進黨你們回去討論一下要討論你們要的不要一人說一句話都不一樣的所以關於我們民眾黨提出了發展署"},{"start":6939.932,"end":6967.061,"text":"的法案裡面第二條第三款明定新住民發展署範圍就是新住民考試規劃執行督導與漲注希望的是什麼我們要強化新住民的政策新住民參與國家考試或者是說現在我們移民官裡面也有新住民在裡面考移民官"},{"start":6967.981,"end":6977.566,"text":"所以我們希望的是在我們的法裡面有這樣的考試列科考試列科怎麼去刪呢 怎麼樣補我們考試部說要來去刪除 我們是要講的是我們要輔導 要怎麼樣去督導監督 獎勵"},{"start":6990.153,"end":7015.686,"text":"他們要去考現在也有很多台灣人學不同國家的語言也在移民署裡面考這樣子的考官所以我們要的是考相關列科還有新住民也可以考其他人可以考但是我們希望說新住民優先是因為這個是鼓勵性質還有讓更多人有這個機會但是呢"},{"start":7017.24,"end":7036.295,"text":"條文不看來這裡拋空幹不好對不對我們要看條文關於這些條文關於這些規定來去問你們你們才答得出來不是都不懂來這裡問這是明嘴的方式所以希望我們今天把這個組織法"},{"start":7037.856,"end":7053.826,"text":"以裡面的組織法來去討論 我們內政部行政沒有版本你們開會也開會不出來 不到你們開的是同樂會還是什麼會完全沒有簽名 完全沒有記錄 完全沒有公文這個是叫做開會嗎 連民間團體開會 都比你們開會更有效力啦以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請王美惠委員發言"},{"start":7068.672,"end":7068.832,"text":"麻煩次長"},{"start":7083.189,"end":7104.08,"text":"市長辛苦 老闆今天我們要討論新住民發展法裡面 我覺得每一個有每一個意見我們都要去尊重 因為說實在你如果來到這裡你自己有自己的主觀意識也不好 我們修一個法可以"},{"start":7108.402,"end":7117.804,"text":"更好,欠缺,收不到的,可以大家想出更好的辦法像我今天要跟你說的就是我們的新住民,剛才我們的董事也說過要加分,既然他已經是台灣人的身份證了,這個加分的時候"},{"start":7134.702,"end":7138.564,"text":"對我的意見來說 我覺得非常不適合因為我認為 大家都愛中華民國的台灣 才會來到中華民國的台灣生活"},{"start":7151.411,"end":7158.237,"text":"在這個規定當中會揭出他的新聞證不是說今天你進來台灣明天就可以揭出新聞證是要等久以來的時間才有辦法去揭出新聞證揭出新聞證就是標示他是中華民國台灣人的新聞證的身份"},{"start":7178.414,"end":7183.919,"text":"所以他提出他的新聞證,就表示中華民國所有的福利所有的可以收錢,台灣人都可以收到的福利今天,我們就是說,要怎麼拿這個法"},{"start":7197.231,"end":7218.691,"text":"太好,因為我說了解,在我們這裡,你如果覺得說,數位跟局的,你們每一個人都會覺得說,是政務的論用,還是常務的論用,但是在這幾宗我們的司法裡面,台北我們譬如說,"},{"start":7222.054,"end":7246.891,"text":"觀光署 跟健保署 都用政務任用的啦在這個規定當中 我覺得三級的機關裡面 本質上我們都會用常務任用嘛 但是在非有做這個規定所以我們可以開放政務任用 或是可以用出"},{"start":7248.052,"end":7252.035,"text":"更好的人才,所以今天我們所討論的來賓,在這裡我要跟你說的就是,常務任用是看來賓有什麼,是在13"},{"start":7262.881,"end":7267.505,"text":"要不然在規定裡面 最有任用的法條裡面要不然在這個規定當中 我們可以法條裡面 可以寫出 政府可以比照檢認"},{"start":7281.936,"end":7287.661,"text":"因為我覺得這裡面的規定有時候會覺得說要說清楚沒亂吵吵你跟現在想要合作的想要做的最少有七八十項如果改良後改良後七八十項的時候人員就要加重金要跟一百人"},{"start":7309.119,"end":7336.746,"text":"所以在這個過程當中,我就是要跟你討論的說,我們這樣,你的感覺有困難度在哪裡?你們政府一來這個法要出來的時候,你們在內部裡面的區會裡面,有遇到什麼問題嗎?來請回答一下好,謝謝委員,我想基本法那個通過之後,其實我們現在最重要的就是依照基本法的內容做業務分工"},{"start":7337.446,"end":7358.82,"text":"所以業務分工才會有相關的部會就我剛剛一開始講的勞動、教育、社福等等的文化那因為這些東西的部分裡面如果有一些個別細節的部分譬如說任用權、通譯還有一些像學術、交流那這些東西有些東西本來是原本散在各個部會的"},{"start":7359.96,"end":7382.807,"text":"那我們這一次就是要跟各部會就是說他的執掌業務哪一些是可以移撥給我的所以我要跟他討論所以我們跟他開啟示哪一些是他業務移撥人員不移撥這個都雖然都很細項但是如果沒有一個完整的做調整的話新住民發展署不可能去承接所有其他部位的業務我想這個是最主要的所以我們這次會調整四個組12顆其實有一些業務都是我們"},{"start":7383.587,"end":7391.886,"text":"配合基本法之後所新增下來的那這個部分都還沒有辦法做一個完整的釐清的時候我們沒有辦法把組織法送上來最主要是這個部分"},{"start":7392.739,"end":7409.856,"text":"所以你們沒辦法上台就是另外一個問題嘛你們開始在那裡整合的心想說在一個單位在一個單位可以來在這個心法裡面來做來的合乎嘛所以到目前為止你們還沒想到要怎麼可以更好、更快"},{"start":7414.885,"end":7437.132,"text":"我想跟你們報告其實我們大概都準備好了啦那只是接下來就是說還有跟部會的後續分工我們只要再確認說哪些業務不移波哪些業務留在原來可能是勞動文化教育衛福的部分我們繼續留著但是有一些新的部分其實像這次的組織法裡面談到的有關保險還有國家考試的任用權那這個部分其實有些是逾越我三級機關的組織法所應該能夠寫的啦"},{"start":7439.153,"end":7451.798,"text":"大概是這樣子因為這裡跟你討論就是說我們的背景我們也要照顧到新的住民法我們也要照顧到我們當然要照顧新的住民法但是剛才我本身就是跟你說就是有這個問題說學生會跟我們說實在現在大家都很聰明尤其既然你已經來到台灣的生活的時候我相信"},{"start":7465.423,"end":7471.384,"text":"協助,一定都會協助,長久以來,移民署也都會協助這些新住民,對不對不然說,沒有在協助,它就靠不過去,要有協助才靠得過去,有加分才靠得過去我認為一個公平的社會時,這個科技的加分,我希望我們可以慎慎去評估對方的"},{"start":7493.151,"end":7499.006,"text":"為當中 我覺得這是不好的啦因為沒公平啦因為這個過程 我也覺得說"},{"start":7501.758,"end":7510.544,"text":"你講修法,怎麼自立來協助新住民轉業也好,嫁來這裡也好,來這裡做工作也好都可以給他們好好的照顧、協助我相信我們中央政府都願意這樣做啦不是說你有修這個新的法,到時候我就來照顧新住民"},{"start":7532.579,"end":7543.948,"text":"會協助和付出 我覺得這是非常不公平其實我們一直都在做 移民署的業務本來就有包含新住民輔導、文化、融入台灣社會對啊 所以我覺得長久以來 我們會覺得自己討論應該付出的、應該協助的 沒錯可是不要去磨滅他們長久以來會協助的辛苦"},{"start":7557.58,"end":7565.422,"text":"他們是將來不再發生,他們覺得你來台灣,有什麼正確、什麼錯誤,我應該讓你合作這都是應該,但聽起來,他們覺得你沒有一個單位,他們就沒辦法在台灣選我我覺得這是非常對,長久以來合作這些新住民的人"},{"start":7584.82,"end":7599.411,"text":"我們都持續在做,我們都一直在協助希望新住民能夠融入台灣社會,成為我們國民之後可以更融入台灣所以我對自己的心,新住民說實在他非常認真,非常認同台灣所以我們要怎麼讓他好,不是說為了什麼"},{"start":7608.238,"end":7609.499,"text":"我們下一位請陳佩玉委員發言"},{"start":7645.762,"end":7650.449,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那先請內政部移民署 謝謝好 請移民署署長"},{"start":7654.797,"end":7674.043,"text":"委員好署長你好我想要跟你討論一下關於所謂新住民考試這件事情我先說一下我的認識再請署長給予指教因為剛麥玉珍委員一直在追這一題我認為他對於這件事情一定有很大的誤解甚至指控你們是同樂會這件事情一我想請問一下現在在民眾黨黨團還有國民黨黨團的版本裡面第二條的第二款他們第三款他們的寫法是這樣說的"},{"start":7682.745,"end":7703.084,"text":"他說新住民國家考試之規劃執行督導及獎勵他認為這個是相關的新住民發展署日後要負責的業務內容之一可是我的理解是不管他是來自於除了中國以外來自於哪一個國家的新住民"},{"start":7703.464,"end":7720.051,"text":"一定是要拿到台灣的身份證之後他就可以參與國家考試專業人員的認證考試然後他就可以因為這個考試的合格取得某一個公務人員的職位或者是在台灣以專業的身份進行社會參與我的理解是對的嗎"},{"start":7721.222,"end":7744.365,"text":"在這裡跟委員做一個報告其實根據我們憲法五權分立的一個原則其實國家考試權它是屬於所謂的考試院這是第一點我要做一個說明那第二個部分的話就是說在憲法裡面它有很明確的規定就是說我們不得因為這個性別、種族、身份而為不同的對待"},{"start":7745.226,"end":7766.995,"text":"所以在我們新住民基本法的第二條第三款裡面他去提到這個部分在這個相關的新住民只要是這個取得身份涉及十年之後他是有參加國家考試的權利取得身份涉及十年那這樣我就不懂了你認為因為你們一定研究過民眾黨團的版本跟國民黨團的版本"},{"start":7768.536,"end":7789.663,"text":"他們之所以這樣寫,難道他們是希望,我不確定啦,因為我沒有去請教過他們難道他們是希望要為新住民朋友爭取,在沒有拿到身份證,而且沒有符合你剛剛的條件之前國家就必須要開一個特別的門,給新住民參與國家考試難道他們是想要這樣做嗎?那如果這樣做,會不會有你剛剛說違憲的問題?"},{"start":7791.644,"end":7807.715,"text":"所以基本上我們認為這個跟憲法上是有所衝突的啦所以我們認為就是說不可以因為這個特殊的身份而這個他只要取得了身份涉及了之後他就是國人應該跟國人的權益是一致的不應該為特別的一個對待"},{"start":7808.151,"end":7833.679,"text":"好那這個等一下我們來討論的時候我認為這個問題很大那另外我也想問他可能想像另外一種國家考試你聽聽看就是他不參與公務人員的考試他可能參加所謂證照例如說美容師啊美髮師啊廚師啊像這樣的專業證照他可能認定這也是國家考試的一部分可不可以請您說明一下當然我知道是考試院或是全序部相關的業務但是就你們在法規上如何去做一些討論"},{"start":7835.279,"end":7852.912,"text":"這個應該是屬於所謂的是不是所謂的專門職業技術的這種考試這種考試它相關的一個規範其實坦白講我不是那麼的清楚好沒錯我們等一下也許要進入主條討論也許我們要討論這些內容的時候我認為這些事情是我們要釐清的"},{"start":7853.212,"end":7869.389,"text":"不是一個委員在質詢台上大吼大叫好像看起來是在為新住民爭取權益但我認為他創造了更難以討論的模糊空間我想這件事情你剛說明非常清楚我們也會持續關注來 謝謝移民署那接下來有請內政部次長 謝謝"},{"start":7875.452,"end":7880.435,"text":"好 謝謝次長我想要跟次長分享一下關於新住民的權益我知道我們過往內政部做了非常非常多的事情下一張我們接下來討論關於新住民的運動需求我想跟次長分享一些很溫馨可愛的案例在頭影片的左手邊是台灣杯足球賽他所協助的是移民 移工 新住民等等"},{"start":7897.904,"end":7925.458,"text":"因為他們在台灣有相關運動社團的需求那於是他們有自主組織了一些團隊然後自己還舉辦比賽甚至這個規模越來越大他現在甚至有一個正式的名字叫台灣杯足球賽那當然這件事情呢過往在體育署也好在外交部也好他們都有積極的協助那過未來我還其實要拜託內政部這邊我們如何協同體育署或是外交部積極給予更多協助因為未來運動部要成立了"},{"start":7927.479,"end":7942.094,"text":"現在運動部的規劃裡面呢我的想像啦它可能必須要放在重規或是運動休閒或是社區運動或是運動健康其實這邊只是先友善的提醒跟拜託內政部後續在運動部掛牌成立之後如何部會之間的討論跟對接"},{"start":7945.136,"end":7972.698,"text":"這邊也特別謝謝委員那我想其實我們在跟相關部會在討論的業務分工其實包括在教育部分因為現在還沒有分家所以在教育部分包括運動比較少討論到我們是討論到他的教育例如說通益的一些訓練等等的那我想這個新的項目部分我們後續還是會跟目前教育部還是會來討論這個分工好 這個部分就要拜託我們後續也可以一起來努力好 謝謝那接下來有請全序部 謝謝"},{"start":7975.783,"end":7998.931,"text":"次長請回謝謝主席我還有時間你突然站起來嚇我一跳我聽到你說謝謝我還沒還沒好 全序部這邊我要先謝謝全序部我們來討論一個事情當然今天要拜託您把問題帶回去因為可能不是您的工作長期可以回答不過沒有關係我把問題反映出來第一個我們看到考試院有發布公務人員請假規則修正草案在6月16號的時候"},{"start":8000.331,"end":8017.821,"text":"裡面很重要的事情是把身心調試假放進去了資料委員爭取了很久總算放進去了但是我們看到相關配套我們有一點擔心我們先提出來拜託你們帶回去討論怎麼說呢你們說身心這個相關的法規說身心調試假要納入試假病假"},{"start":8019.242,"end":8034.836,"text":"來計算他的寫法是這樣可是如果我們來看到公務人員考積法實行細則裡面他說市價並價合計超過14天者考積不得列為假等所以原本本來是每億的身心條市價他如果又被這一條卡住"},{"start":8035.917,"end":8046.007,"text":"會不會有另外的身心壓力當然我認為這都需要配套跟討論因為我看到你們其實有一個美意喔我們來看一下在這個公務人員考接法實行細則裡面呢第四條有寫到應該要扣除家庭照顧假生理假還有安胎適由"},{"start":8052.854,"end":8079.57,"text":"也就是說我們在制定相關法規的時候我們知道有更多基層公務人員的需求是希望包含這些但不要被併入所謂試駕併駕14天考機便宜等所以身心調試駕假設真的列為試駕但是還有跟這個卡住所以要拜託你們待會去研議好不好我們先預先把配套做好讓我們真的想要協助公務員並且真的讓身心調試駕的美意在未來執行的時候它真的是可以往好的方向發展"},{"start":8081.724,"end":8105.966,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們這次公務員請假規則的修正草案裡面其實已經有明訂說身心調試假不可以影響公務員的考積但是因為他跟實行細則他把他放進試假裡所以雖然利益良善但是他回到實行細則他又卡住了好不好好就拜託你們待會去討論好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好我們下一位請審發會委員發言"},{"start":8119.904,"end":8129.007,"text":"我們順便宣告一下待會在李博義委員訓導後我們休息五分鐘主席我們請次長麻煩次長"},{"start":8135.24,"end":8145.647,"text":"市長好市長我們今天要來審查有關於內政部新住民發展署的組織法"},{"start":8151.815,"end":8164.625,"text":"這其實是我們司法法治委員會第一次有機會討論有關新住民的議題之前在新住民基本法的整個立法過程我們看到整個立法過程其實"},{"start":8166.104,"end":8187.392,"text":"那就是在這個內政委員會之後,內政委員會保留的條文,然後到政黨協商,政黨協商有排,政黨協商但是事實上也沒有討論,那就進付二讀,就把就最後就到二讀,直接就二讀、三讀,那就通過了所謂這個原住民基本法。那在這個過程裡面,事實上我們司法法治委員會一直沒有機會來討論。"},{"start":8189.013,"end":8214.204,"text":"那今天因為有這個組織法所以我們回頭我利用這個機會回頭來看這個我們當初在我剛所講這樣的立法過程中這個原住民基本法這個立法本身它的荒謬不是新住民新住民新住民基本法立法本身的荒謬那這個這個在其實在討論過程中民進黨就我們黨團就一再的說明說這個新住民基本法"},{"start":8215.37,"end":8235.198,"text":"他用基本法裡面去規範一大堆應該是作用法裡面的一些規則把一些各個包括各個現在各個部會不同部會的這些組長事務把它揉揉抽抽從移民署陸委會甚至衛福部的這些兒少保護這些東西抽抽把它"},{"start":8237.339,"end":8259.657,"text":"湊在一起然後用一個基本法三個字這樣子這種高於一般法令的這個概念來做這個作用法本身的事情這讓我們那時候民進黨一直主張說應該制定新住民權益保障法而不是制定基本法反正基本法這樣通過之後我現在很多一般很多"},{"start":8262.794,"end":8282.874,"text":"國人就在問一個最基本的問題這個要請市長回答就是這個新住民我們現在新住民基本法裡面以及未來我們所謂新住民發展署裡面所指的新住民如果因為我看他第二條的這些定義看起來"},{"start":8284.269,"end":8308.491,"text":"它是一個取得台灣永久居住事實的各種不同的方式那如果跟取得國籍好像對取得國籍沒有任何的規定究竟取得國籍之後的這些所謂原本是新住民但是取得中華民國國籍之後這樣子的國民他是不是用這個新住民的基本法"},{"start":8309.85,"end":8324.885,"text":"取得中華民國國籍好 謝謝我想跟委員報告照新住民基本條第二條它是擴大定義所以它把婚姻移民但是跟身分別之後轉化為取得國人身分那是兩個是不一樣完全無關對 因為也就是說取得"},{"start":8326.907,"end":8348.083,"text":"不管他現在有沒有取得身份證有沒有取得台灣的國籍取得身份證有要件 例如說要居留我知道 那是另外不管他 他今天已經取得中華民國國籍的身份他依然 我們依然把他定義為新住民照目前基本法的定義是這樣子目前基本法的定義是這樣子這個吼 這個就是我們現在覺得說最"},{"start":8351.189,"end":8371.525,"text":"我個人認為這個新住民基本法在這個定義上面一些政客現在想要在這邊號召說我們這些外籍配偶大家來支持我然後訂立這樣子的新住民基本法事實上新住民基本法新住民這樣子的身份很多人他就類比他把原住民就拿來類比新住民認為說把原住民的保障那就新住民就類比保障"},{"start":8372.759,"end":8399.589,"text":"但是新住民的身份原住民是因為這塊土地上面的他們這個身份的取得是因為他們的血統所以他們比所有後來移民者早居住在這塊土地的適時的民族以及他們整個族群民族社會的聚集他所受到這個現在社會的這個壓迫跟歷史上面的壓迫讓我們大家予以保障"},{"start":8400.609,"end":8429.639,"text":"但是新住民的身份他能夠繼承嗎我因為我這一代是新住民所以我下一代還是新住民下一代新住民的下一代還是新住民原住民過時代還是原住民新住民可以過時代還是新住民嗎市長謝謝委員我想新住民他的定義應該是要融入成為我國國民因為新住民跟原住民不一樣新住民本身是一個過渡性他基本上就是一個過渡性我們立法的目的是為了"},{"start":8430.931,"end":8438.539,"text":"我們給他差異性這個待遇的目的是為了解決他現在實質上的困境而不是因為他的身份給他標籤化"},{"start":8441.954,"end":8459.859,"text":"對不對所以我個人認為說在這個整個立法過程在這個思維上面有很大的問題這樣子的問題我們想像現在台灣社會已經沒有人在分本省人外省人我們自己也沒有人會問說那個人是本省人還是外省人都沒有這個省級的問題了"},{"start":8460.979,"end":8484.335,"text":"假設當初也有外省政科在這裡說我們要成立一個外省人基本法我們要成立一個外省人的這個發展委員會那到今天為止台灣還在分本省人外省人我們成立新住民發展署我們最要避免的就是未來我們因為這個基本法設立不當導致未來這個新住民被標籤化"},{"start":8493.015,"end":8516.422,"text":"這是應該我們要避免的所以這個我就先就這個新住民的基本法因為我們這個整個立法過程的粗糙讓我們這個我們作為司法法治委員會的成員幾乎沒有時間沒有機會可以在這裡面討論這個新住民基本法就在這邊花點時間來談我個人對於這個新住民基本法的一些看法"},{"start":8518.443,"end":8543.17,"text":"就今天的法令來講我覺得要通過其實因為新住民基本法已經通過了其實今天的這個有關這個組織法它其實都是依據新住民基本法裡面尤其是像看到第二條第二條它的內容幾乎就是就是按照新住民基本法裡面的一條的一款一款下去列相應的這些它的這些長理事項啦但是剛剛很多委員都提到就是這個"},{"start":8544.19,"end":8570.67,"text":"各個版本除了只有羅美玲委員的版本他很清楚的就是沒有相關的規定之外所有的民眾黨的版本國民黨委員的版本全部在第三款裡面設定的新住民國家考試之規劃執行督導講助全部都要由新住民發展組織這個新住民發展署來都變成他的執掌國家考試的規劃這個按照憲法"},{"start":8573.427,"end":8588.083,"text":"按照憲法這個五權憲法既然是你們國民黨的生文發明的考試權就是獨立屬於考試權全部考試你現在可以說那我們土木工程考試以後就由這個工程會來辦我們這個相關的經濟類科考試以後由經濟部來辦"},{"start":8597.433,"end":8624.892,"text":"所以這一條的法令 今天如果要討論 倒是要逐條這一條有關 這個還 我不去談什麼未來他會不會加分 他會不會加分 他的子女會不會加分這個都不是重點 重點是憲法就考試權 它就是屬於考試院 屬於考選部的你在這裡用一個組織法 把這個考試的權 舉辦考試的權益把它移到這個 我們的內政部 這個真是荒謬到極點"},{"start":8626.741,"end":8655.594,"text":"所以這個我希望等一下進入這個如果今天要進入這個法案的討論的時候我希望在這一點上面這個是憲法的原則我希望說這部分能夠各黨派大家要自治這個部分不要把它不要為了黨派立場堅持這樣子違憲的條文 以上好 謝謝陳委員我們先處理會議時間上午會議進行至12點休息下午1點30分繼續開會我們接著請吳思耀委員發言"},{"start":8663.92,"end":8664.201,"text":"主席請次長謝謝"},{"start":8670.095,"end":8697.672,"text":"大家辛苦了我想也要再一次清楚的說明民進黨我們對於新住民的各項權益我們一直希望能夠協助跨部會的來協助讓新住民成為國人的這個過渡階段各項的保障權益我們都盡可能的做好做滿讓他們能夠融入台灣社會也就是從新住民成為台灣郎"},{"start":8699.133,"end":8713.518,"text":"的這個過渡期間我們該做的政策全方面都進行而且是現在進行式所以在這一個身份過渡的期間我們要協助所有新住民的是要去去標籤化"},{"start":8714.978,"end":8737.658,"text":"而不是貼標籤化甚至是一次貼上一輩子的標籤這是民進黨反對的思維所以說當初在新住民權益保障法是民進黨的主張但是藍白是多數他們還是強硬的用新住民基本法"},{"start":8738.499,"end":8760.42,"text":"用一個基本法的高位階來強行通過了但今天我們面對的問題就是一步錯步步錯問題來了好我們看到這一頁民進黨當初主張的作用法權益保障法是優於一個只有宣誓效用的基本法"},{"start":8761.081,"end":8786.24,"text":"民進黨的主張因為是作用法可以快狠準快速的制定各項政策而且執行而且因為是一個作用法我們不會產生跟既有法律漢格的問題更重要的嚴肅的課題是當初我們拆了地雷我們守住了一個可能危及國家安全"},{"start":8787.16,"end":8810.462,"text":"的立法當時被我們發現藍白委員所提的甚至要讓陸配穿上新住民的身份外衣而鬆綁現在陸委會所進行的各項管制也就是陸配極有可能轉換的身份成為新住民的話他就可以入籍年限"},{"start":8811.182,"end":8837.231,"text":"極有可能達到六變四殊途同歸修不同的法但是達到這樣子的政治目的所以這背後的國安危機我們當然要戒慎恐懼要防要反制所以說我們的政策立場我要再一次的再討論新住民發展署的這個時候再次清楚的說明下一頁"},{"start":8838.411,"end":8865.956,"text":"在野党的委员用一个基本法固然提高了法的未接法的地位但是它却产生了副作用架空了用一个三级的单位会架空二级机关陆委会你看这个法律的关系里头用一个高未接的基本法它就会凌驾了两岸人民关系条例以及港澳人民关系条例这个是法理面下页"},{"start":8867.136,"end":8894.203,"text":"在實體面現在65%左右是陸配港澳配偶嘛對不對市長所謂的不管是越南啦印尼這些為大宗的新住民大概只佔35%的比例但是呢如果適用了基本法而且今天我們要一步錯步步錯也讓他成立了新住民發展署的話"},{"start":8896.591,"end":8924.623,"text":"選擇不明跌床駕屋百分之六十五的陸委會的陸配港澳配偶現在是陸委會來做各項服務跟管理輔導對不對那今天成立了新住民發展署請問次長這些陸配跟港澳配偶的所有的服務作業誰做謝謝委員我想那個不管是港澳的或者是陸配的規定還是要依照兩岸條例的規定"},{"start":8925.881,"end":8953.358,"text":"對 但是新住民基本法的定義就很清楚啦新住民 including港澳跟陸配啊所以是不是就發生了適用法律的漢格跟現行你會用一個錯誤的法律概念跟框架讓一個三級機關架空了二級機關陸委會是不是有這樣子的疑慮是 委員這就是會有法律的未接特別法跟一般法或基本法的沒有錯 好 我們看下一頁"},{"start":8954.574,"end":8964.509,"text":"我們來講對新住民的照顧民進黨執政我們努力做更好做更多但是為了成立一個新機關將會"},{"start":8968.725,"end":8993.579,"text":"產生了實質的困難而且我更要說他很恐怕是虛有其表我這邊列出來的所有的從生活輔導醫療從就業就學教育文化人身安全保障各項權益所有的執行政策的執行是不是已經散列在各個政府部會"},{"start":8994.64,"end":9017.387,"text":"是的 跟委員報告 其實委員所爐列的這些本來就是目前我們的分工各部會分工就以今天要審的發展署的組織法裡頭的第二條的所有的在野黨委員的十一項也是即便你今天成立了這個署你這些業務是不是還是回到這些部會執行"},{"start":9018.652,"end":9041.147,"text":"是的跟委員報告其實我們目前召開期制會就是就這些業務依照基本法的內容到底跟其他部會是不是有些要再調整那這樣成立一個新的發展署可是業務是各部會在做這不是很怪嗎所以我們新的發展署也不可能涵蓋其他部會的業務好我們看下一頁確實需要整合"},{"start":9042.288,"end":9056.021,"text":"如果說我們需要整合其實現在已經有內政部移民署在進行中而且行政院特別照顧新住民在行政院成立了新住民事務協調匯報就是有一個跨部會的協調機制"},{"start":9061.966,"end":9081.317,"text":"院長著急的喔然後來讓各部會對於新住民的服務照顧權益保障能夠具體明確的分工不會彼此打架不會彼此有漢格所以如果成立一個新住民發展署我剛剛已經說了即便有一個新的單位整合的工作現在跨部會的協調彙報已經在做更高位"},{"start":9090.743,"end":9103.052,"text":"然後呢執行的政策的各個面向也是交給其他部會去執行那我們成立這個署不是須有其表嗎不是為了成立而成立嗎"},{"start":9104.909,"end":9126.916,"text":"最後下一頁因為時間到了我同樣同意剛剛幾位民進黨委員提出來的主張第二條的第三款有關於要考試特殊的權利我們認為要回到考試權的平等的原則而且不要再次違憲侵犯了考試院的權利下一頁"},{"start":9127.936,"end":9148.33,"text":"在第二條的第八款有關於我不曉得國民黨民眾黨的委員來加了一個新住民廣播電視之規劃是不是有要成立新住民電視台之類的規劃我想這個又是一個更嚴峻的耗費人力物力他需要更長遠的規劃所以我同意羅美玲委員的版本以媒體來取代廣播電視在這個條款的內容我最後利用30秒的時間我要清楚的"},{"start":9158.096,"end":9179.373,"text":"再次呈現新住民在台灣我們努力讓他從新住民成為台灣郎的過渡期限各項的權益民進黨努力做到這是過去沒有做到的包括新住民可以參選立法委員包括學校開設的母語教學課程只要一個新住民選修就給開課"},{"start":9180.794,"end":9197.367,"text":"政府政策也已經做到多國語言的翻譯跟服務而且沒有健保的新住民我們給與跟國人一樣享有產檢的補助還有新住民的就學是給予外加名額的協助還有"},{"start":9197.827,"end":9226.579,"text":"各項技術考科都可以申請多語言的服務包括就業訓練不需要有任何的費用包括新住民的子女另外國家編列獎學金來幫助他們而且台灣22個縣市都有新住民的家庭服務中心以及新住民的子女如果要回台灣就學教育部已經有旋轉教育免費的方式來協助最後一個新住民在移民署的考試"},{"start":9227.259,"end":9249.216,"text":"也有多語類科現在進行是正在進行換言之還沒有成立一個新住民的發展署各項的業務對於新住民的權益保障服務措施我們努力做好做滿所以大家可以好好繼續的深思熟慮如果成立了一個新的組織確實需有起表"},{"start":9249.776,"end":9269.773,"text":"又會發生跟其他部會的漢格用一個三級機關凌駕二級機關的權限真的值得大家深思再深思謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳委員那我們下一位請李博義委員發言那在李博義委員發言完畢之後我們依照先前宣告休息五分鐘"},{"start":9285.349,"end":9298.519,"text":"其實今天是一個很荒謬的會議這個荒謬的會議,我從內政委員會在上個會期的審議新住民權益保障法到"},{"start":9301.037,"end":9315.314,"text":"後來進入政黨協商以後一次的協商三個小時的內容其實大家都簽名了法案名稱就是要做新住民權益保障法新住民權益保障法"},{"start":9316.855,"end":9337.006,"text":"將中配納入新住民的定義也就是說你有本國籍的配偶然後你來到台灣以後你就具有新住民的身份這佔了有65%的中國配偶會變成新住民的定義"},{"start":9338.376,"end":9362.554,"text":"當然我們希望進入台灣之後,進入生活之後他取得台灣國民身份證之後,他就是台灣人嘛那這個新住民基本法的第二條裡面又把它匡列進為他永遠是新住民這個我覺得萬萬不可啊但是還是在藍白的強行表決之下"},{"start":9363.314,"end":9381.132,"text":"那在藍白撤遷協商結論並且把這一個法正式改為新住民基本法那這個基本法之後呢我們內政部就要開始來研擬這個組織法嘛那但是目前內政部還沒有研擬出來的原因是因為"},{"start":9382.433,"end":9394.077,"text":"當然還要涉及到其他各部會的這些問題那你到底跟陸委會等等的這些新住民的或者是這些陸配的相關的權益要由誰來幫他們協助所以今天的"},{"start":9398.098,"end":9427.372,"text":"今天的這個組織法我是覺得很奇怪啦但是隨著這個組織法隨著這個新住民基本法確立了之後呢好現在組織法又來了把基本法的內容又搬來這裡再來討論一次到底他的身份是不是一輩子來 市長市長我取得台灣身份證之後我還是新住民嗎如果這個依照這個新住民的定義"},{"start":9428.479,"end":9431.013,"text":"那他這個新住民的身份要跟他多久 市長"},{"start":9432.117,"end":9457.632,"text":"依照新住民這個基本法來回應陳如瑋上面所秀的其實基本法第二條就已經把它明定了就是婚姻移民、子女等等的其實這些都已經涵蓋那其實我們在這個內容子女也涵蓋他一輩子就是新住民所以我還是希望說榮祿取得國人身份之後就是我中華民國的國民可是依照這個基本法"},{"start":9458.593,"end":9475.538,"text":"他只要是新住民所生的這些小孩他一輩子都叫新住民對不對我是覺得不應該標籤化對,這個就是今天這部法令的很荒謬的地方啦我相信有很多現在可能念到國中、高中甚至大學"},{"start":9477.212,"end":9497.533,"text":"台灣人啊,然後你卻用這個法令來規範他是新住民所以我覺得這個必須要提出來那這個其實就是沒有經過完整的討論並且推翻政黨協商把新住民權益保障法一旦他取得,權益保障的意思一旦他取得台灣身份證的時候"},{"start":9498.394,"end":9518.619,"text":"他就確確實實就台灣國民了嘛那你還稱他為新住民這第二條定義就是非常有問題的那今天我提出來的這一個齁除了這個組織法裡面除了這個身份之外裡面還藏了很多貓膩包含保險包含考試這些都非常非常需要"},{"start":9520.203,"end":9547.897,"text":"讓社會來檢視的問題啦 我跟你說根據2024年這個台灣外配的這個生活調查指標裡面98.1%的新住民他其實是有健保的喔73.8%他是有勞保的喔那你現在又在這個第二條裡面要規定這些社會保險我不知道他規定什麼耶"},{"start":9549.127,"end":9574.88,"text":"已經98%有健保了欸他如果入籍台灣之後他也會有健保我們要保障的是他在還沒有取得身份證這一段時間的這個權益嘛那有沒有在做衛福部有在做啊這個內政部有在做啊每一個部會都有在做啊弄這一個這個這個基本法這基本法對不起真的是很奇怪好最嚴重的考試請問一下齁"},{"start":9581.44,"end":9593.599,"text":"人事總長在這裡,請問一下考試公務人員要不要有台灣國籍?一定來啊新住民國家考試要怎麼做?"},{"start":9595.253,"end":9615.285,"text":"阿現在的按照目前的規定是要期的國籍以後要10年阿沒有阿我現在新住民國家考試要入法阿怎麼弄阿你就是侵犯到憲法阿那是科技營業管阿所以侵犯憲法嘛一個組織法可以侵犯憲法欸多嚴重好"},{"start":9616.397,"end":9641.414,"text":"他要另外立一個國家考試之外呢台灣人咧我們原本大家平等的考試制度在哪裡考試院有沒有來來考選部來中華民國最珍貴的地方在於我們的法治我們的法治立足在一個平等"},{"start":9642.421,"end":9665.635,"text":"那這一個平等的考試如果有這個新住民國家考試來你回應一下你有沒有辦法做法委員那個公務人員考試法開宗明義就說公開競爭為之啊國家考試以公開競爭為之啊所以也是也是違法的嗎好謝謝好謝謝那我們休息五分鐘是"},{"start":9678.765,"end":9678.885,"text":"蘑菇"},{"start":9705.009,"end":9707.011,"text":"我知道我已經被掛牆了"},{"start":9975.708,"end":10001.79,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請羅志強委員發言主席有請內政部麻煩次長委員好次長好今天我們要審議新住民發展署組織法"},{"start":10003.496,"end":10023.214,"text":"那這部法案看起來行政機關立法委員都是站同方向那我個人也是但我還是要提醒就是說其實新住民現在還面臨非常多的一些挑戰語言資訊落差然後公共資源難以取得的這些障礙"},{"start":10024.335,"end":10048.8,"text":"它造成許多新住民在申請補助、醫療照護、子女就學等生活層面的其實還是有蠻多的不便利所以這個部分也是為什麼我們希望能夠成立就是有新住民發展署能夠來去好好的來照顧我們現在的新住民的權益這是我想今天為什麼大家齊聚一堂的一個最重要的一個目的"},{"start":10049.64,"end":10066.563,"text":"那除此之外新住民在勞動市場上的不平等待遇其實也經常沒有獲得充分的處理那現在很多新住民的女性是集中在照護清潔這些產業那有些的產業相對比較薪水比較低"},{"start":10067.344,"end":10084.252,"text":"那也缺乏升遷機會跟在職培訓的資源那更重要的是新住民的子女在教育體系當中現在還是存在一些包括同才歧視文化邊緣化以及語言資源不足的問題這些都是"},{"start":10085.573,"end":10111.935,"text":"現狀上其實還仍然存在問題也就是說因此如果沒有辦法更系統性的文化教育推廣跟家庭輔導政策的話那麼可能會造成這個弱勢的循環那對我們新住民的群體來說其實是非常不公平所以為什麼今天我覺得我很贊成就是我們要有一個專責的機構能夠好好的來照應現在"},{"start":10113.076,"end":10125.579,"text":"新住民廣泛的一些需要我想請教一下就是次長你知道目前新住民家庭的平均月收入嗎根據移民署的調查新住民家庭狀況新住民家庭結構以核心家戶為主"},{"start":10137.301,"end":10161.844,"text":"那家庭生活費用主要來源是新住民本人跟配偶的工作或營業收入因此新住民家庭目前平均的收入每月平均收入是62,150元那相較於一般家庭平均月收是117,250元所以看起來新住民家庭的薪資相對是比較弱勢一點"},{"start":10162.765,"end":10180.605,"text":"那另外我想請教說根據移民署112年新住民的生活需求調查報告新住民在台生活困擾的前三名我不知道兩個單位您知道嗎我們也請移民署上來好了移民署"},{"start":10188.391,"end":10192.735,"text":"我記得有就業工作問題還有經濟收入的問題跟健康問題長照還有就業還有一個就是我想請教長照就業跟語言三個主要是最大的一個差異"},{"start":10211.801,"end":10238.629,"text":"你們上面我的資料顯示是112年的顯示是經濟問題 健康問題跟工作問題但是確實不管是長照還有包括語言的部分也都現在新住民比較多的一些想要解決的一些難題那另外想要請教新住民對於生活照顧服務措施的需求最在意的是前三名是哪前三名三位首長知道嗎"},{"start":10240.177,"end":10244.045,"text":"對生活照顧服務的需求前三名"},{"start":10245.285,"end":10271.271,"text":"我來跟您說啦13.5%是保障就業權益12.1%是提供生活救助措施9.5%是協助子女就學這是前三名那麼另外新住民在台生活權益出現困擾的前三名是什麼我也跟三位首長說分別是44%新住民各項社福補助申請資格辦法問題"},{"start":10274.092,"end":10291.67,"text":"32%在台居留證申請問題23%個人財務稅務跟繼承問題其中我覺得我比較關切的是說有40%是將近一半的新住民對於各項社福申請補助的申請資格跟辦法都感到困擾我不知道三位首長"},{"start":10292.771,"end":10317.883,"text":"為什麼會造成這樣的一個讓新住民感到困擾的一個狀況呢能不能說明一下先請移民署好了這邊就我所知道的就是說其實我們各我們移民署各縣市都有服務站那服務站的部分就他們所謂的譬如說是在創業這個部分我們其實會協助他們寫一些專案的計畫那當然我們一些新住民"},{"start":10319.784,"end":10327.271,"text":"到我們國內 其實他的語文表達能力可能不是那麼的好所以我們服務站有專門的人替他們寫一些所謂的這個創業的這個計畫那至於其他證照的這個協助跟補助這個部分其實我們也會透過我們所謂的這個"},{"start":10339.482,"end":10357.916,"text":"這個所謂的地區的這個家庭網絡會議來協助他們譬如說我們會結合我們的一些行動列車來協助他們譬如說一些汽機車的一個考照一些相關的一個協助這個是我們目前有在做的非常謝謝其實為什麼把這些問題攤出來給大家看也是我今天強調的是"},{"start":10362.379,"end":10377.448,"text":"基本上我覺得為什麼我們需要一個新住民發展署其實現在新住民的問題真的很多啦我們有一個專職的機構全心來服務就是應該的以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們下一位請徐宇忠委員發言"},{"start":10390.859,"end":10396.014,"text":"謝主席 我們請吳次長還有移民署林署長以及人事總署的蘇仁市長蘇市長"},{"start":10407.053,"end":10421.2,"text":"請教一下次長跟署長就是我們的新住民基本法其實在去年的8月12號就已經正式公告了那這一步法我想是為了保護新住民而且對於我們的多元的族群跟包容社會的一個承諾"},{"start":10422.1,"end":10446.745,"text":"那其實從這個通過公告到現在其實已經快要大概差不多十個月的時候但是目前都還沒有定定施行的日期甚至連專責的機構目前也都還成立的時間都還沒有下文那請教一下次長因為我知道在去年七月我們這個法一完成三讀之後其實當時的政務委員就是史哲"},{"start":10447.205,"end":10462.229,"text":"他已經就已經有召開一次的會議那針對這個部分的話他也說要落實新住民基本法第四條所定的應該這個設置新住民事務專責的中央三級行政機關並於適當的時機承包行政院的這個審議那請問次長當時負責這個的政務委員使者因為他現在已經這個高升離職去當這個高鐵的這個董事長坐領高薪那"},{"start":10476.693,"end":10485.534,"text":"針對他所帶領的之前這個政務委員擔任的這個負責的部分是不是又要再重來一次新的政務委員接了之後是不是又要重開一次會議"},{"start":10487.365,"end":10508.967,"text":"謝謝委員 我想這個去年在史哲政委的邀集下其實我們也有跟行政院都有報告我們未來成立三級機關的一個進度所以後來後續的部分是由我們這邊成立那個我們的所以史哲 當時政務委員他只主持過那麼一次就是七月的時候召開的是嗎應該有兩次 不止"},{"start":10509.668,"end":10529.632,"text":"在今年的5月27號有第三次的一個召開也是有史哲這個政務委員召開的嗎是的所以說光這個他召開的這個會議就三次那你們剛剛我看你們的報告裡面寫總共有召開過七次是有包含這三次嗎沒有跟委員包含那七次是我們內政部跟移民署"},{"start":10530.332,"end":10548.285,"text":"我們針對要成立三級集團所以表示說已經有跨部會的這個院會來去協調那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法成立這個專責機構的這個施行的日期我想就是因為基本法裡面的內容的條文的部分第一個我們要先確認他的未來的業務執掌"},{"start":10549.165,"end":10576,"text":"所以有包括剛剛文化、教育、勞動跟衛福部的分工那有些的寄存業務是在他們各個部會那我們就是我們開會就是要哪些業務是收整到有我們的成立的新的那如果像這樣講的話其實包含鎮院的已經開了十次會那都還沒有這個嗎還沒有這個討論好誰負責的跟誰分工的這相關的業務嗎那我跟委員報告其實我們自己的內部的部分就是未來新竹民發展署"},{"start":10576.44,"end":10591.999,"text":"我們就是已經大概規劃完就是4個組12個課然後需求人員100人那其他部會因為我在內政委會我很清楚但是請問其他的部會其他部會就是來參加我這邊的那個小組會議然後來那好請問什麼時候可以施行"},{"start":10593.24,"end":10622.079,"text":"那我想這個部分相關後續我們都有跟行政院做報告對 那什麼時候呢整個組織法 因為拖了快一年了嘛一點進展都沒有連這個籌備小組感覺上都沒有太大的進展不會 其實我們幾乎進展都已經差不多那接下來就是 差不多了嗎行政院如果說一旦事情受那預估大概什麼時候 你們已經送行政院了嗎我們都有把資料都有先跟行政院報告過那大概什麼時候呢這個可能還要問行政院那行政院今天有人來嗎"},{"start":10624.415,"end":10645.015,"text":"還要問行政院 也就是說你們都送給行政院但是行政院還沒決定嗎我們都有跟行政院討論我們就正在討論然後包括所謂這個新住民發展署的組織法的內容那這樣子每個部會如果到這樣大家都推來推去你主管什麼我主管什麼你負責什麼我負責什麼然後都不知道最後再推給行政院那請問這部法大概什麼時候可以正式施行"},{"start":10645.455,"end":10668.913,"text":"我跟你講其實我們沒有推啦我們就是第一個我們把我們分內的事情都先做好了那也就是說內政部的部分沒問題了是其他部位的問題囉我們其他部位的話其實有一些是業務收整跟做實施而已那聽你這樣講應該很快囉因為內政部已經好了其他部位都在收尾所以應該很快會好了那我想照顧新住民的權益這個是我們應該做的啦"},{"start":10669.573,"end":10692.331,"text":"我想其實我們有一個對照組我們可以看到運動部的組織法在114年1月24號才公告但卓榮泰院長在短短的數個月之間就高調的宣布9月9號要正式掛牌成立運動部籌備的進度令人十分吃驚但是相較於新住民的基本法"},{"start":10693.152,"end":10716.019,"text":"照理說運動部是行政院的二級機關啊它所牽扯的這個範圍可能更大需要了解的事情可能更多而且新宿民專責機構不過就是三級機構照理說也應該比較容易設立啊那為什麼是會高層如果有意就快馬加鞭喔那如果沒有關注就無限的拖延我甚至懷疑喔就是說如果啦如果這個"},{"start":10717.499,"end":10737.314,"text":"這個我們的新住民基本法如果可以對大罷免這個加溫的話也許早就通過了就是因為它對大罷免沒什麼影響甚至是負面的影響所以到現在可能都沒通過的原因是在這裡然後另外再請教您一下就是行政院網站也把新住民基本法列為重要的政策那我請教一下次長"},{"start":10738.695,"end":10757.539,"text":"常常說要照顧新住民把新住民當作我們的家人可是現在看到好像只是把新住民當成宣傳工具根本就沒有要落實基本的誠意那也請內政部跟人事總處清楚的回答新住民基本法的實施日期為什麼還沒辦法決定是誰在擋剛剛次長已經回答過那請這個人事總長"},{"start":10763.64,"end":10791.894,"text":"謝謝委員我想新住民的一個潛意照顧是大家都有共識事實上也沒有在擋因為在整個審議的程序我們必須要按照一定的一個程序來讓大家就按照整個程序當社會法制委員會指出法通過以後你就記得一步一步來我們一定支持因為對新住民潛意的保障大家都有很高的共識那任市長既然說沒有在擋"},{"start":10792.634,"end":10815.32,"text":"那就是在拖囉也不是在拖事實上很重要就是說之前在基本法第三條裡面所有這些新住民潛意的一些業務的推動還是回歸到主管機關譬如像衛福部相關部會嘛那現在內政部在做的就是要把這些延來各個部會主管的再把它細緻化"},{"start":10816.42,"end":10840.962,"text":"因為既然成立這個新的機關我們就是要做得比以前更好嘛我知道你們都非常的細緻啊所以就到現在都已經將近快一年了那其實看起來的話我覺得這種事實上是已經涉及行政太多所以還是希望各部會大家要共同的加快腳步為我們的新住民爭取權益謝謝好 謝謝韋好 謝謝下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":10852.631,"end":10854.6,"text":"主席好有請次長麻煩次長"},{"start":10858.097,"end":10861.92,"text":"市長好我想這個因為最近的新聞媒體都有報導閃兵事件頻傳那麼尤其是這個王大陸等等27人的閃兵案其實在本週一的時候就已經起訴了27個人那麼對於這樣的一個問題其實我想社會大眾都很關注那麼到底這個現在去扶替代役他的在整個的審驗的過程當中有沒有"},{"start":10886.344,"end":10906.243,"text":"真的有不實的這個狀況或是有包庇這個想要服替去申請免除替代役的人的這樣的一個情況那麼簡單來說就是其實蠻多現在要服替代役年齡的這些青年他們都想方設法想要逃兵那麼對於就是"},{"start":10907.925,"end":10930.545,"text":"內政部除了說目前主動清查還有檢討體會判定等等標準之外對於就是防範逃兵役的這件事情逃服替代役的這個事情內政部目前有沒有就是有沒有一些新的計畫要怎麼樣來防止這個異難來逃避服替代役"},{"start":10935.884,"end":10954.419,"text":"福併醫是國民應經義務內政部的醫生司就這個部分後續如果有修正相關的體會確認標準我們都會跟國防部來做確認這次的事件其實也凸顯了如果說有一些需要再做補強補全的我們都會跟國防部來做一個討論"},{"start":10955.199,"end":10969.372,"text":"好我想內政部這邊可能還是要積極一些因為現在看到這個Line Today上面其實也有發起投票然後也說這個就是由民間自發認為說有些方案基本是可以防止這個防止"},{"start":10972.391,"end":10988.162,"text":"這個逃避服替代役的這樣子的一個這樣的一些做法那我希望就是說內政部呢其實應該要更積極的去跟國防部或是你們自己內部也要提出一個相關的檢討方案否則的話我們看到有些人他就會鑽法律漏洞或是利用這個提報不實的醫檢的報告來"},{"start":10997.629,"end":11018.028,"text":"逃避替代役所以這個部分希望次長能夠多關注這個議題那接下來就是說有關於替代役管理其實也出了問題因為我們有看到新聞上面有在講就是有役男有爆料在成功嶺上面甚至可能有一些替代役的役男在軍中"},{"start":11020.991,"end":11040.587,"text":"在營內持有或吸食毒品或者是還強迫同梯的這個一南吸食的這些新聞那麼我們知道其實依照毒品防害防治條例第33條的規定其實對於特定人員的尿液要進行採驗"},{"start":11043.035,"end":11068.62,"text":"那麼在這邊要請教就是說對於這首入伍時候的這些替代役藝男會實施相關的尿液檢驗嗎因為如果說在替代役藝男在營中然後發生這些問題那目前是怎麼樣的管理方式而且就是他們在服役的過程當中有沒有就是常常會去進行一些尿檢"},{"start":11069.642,"end":11089.586,"text":"是我想跟委員報告因為剛好這個議政並不是我這邊執掌不過就我理解啦應該是個案的問題應該在進來營區的時候在營區是並沒有說有其他的不法的情況那你委員講的部分是不是我容我會後我再請我們議政室來檢討一下說我們未來有什麼方法去做一個防度"},{"start":11090.259,"end":11105.403,"text":"好的我想這個議題基本上因為在網路上面其實有曾經有服過替代役的應難其實又相關的這個反應就是說在整個的替代役的這個他們的這個統一管理的營區裡面可能"},{"start":11106.143,"end":11117.634,"text":"會有發生這樣的一個情況那麼如果說是這個還強迫其他同梯的這個夥伴還要去吸食一些相關毒品的話那我認為說這個其實是嚴重的問題而且呢就是現在"},{"start":11121.878,"end":11126.921,"text":"既然我們在毒品防害防治條例裡面其實有規定針對一些特定的人員他必須要採取實施尿液的檢測所以未來像是替代液的應難有沒有這個必要可能就是例行性的可能每隔一段時間去進行尿液檢測來確保說他們基本上不會在營區裡面有發生有這種吸毒的狀況我覺得這個也是有必要的那就請次長可能這部分再行研議"},{"start":11148.354,"end":11152.397,"text":"還有就是有關於總統府因為他上任之後沒多久他基本上就宣布了幾個委員會雖然這個委員會可能跳脫組織法裡面的規定但是像全社會防衛任性委員會還有接下來我們談的城鎮任性委員會等等"},{"start":11169.907,"end":11197.327,"text":"其實他們基本上都常常都會去辦一些民安演習啊這個所謂的這些防護的演習可是我們曉得不管是這個全社會防衛任性委員會舉辦的實地演練或者是城鎮任性的演習其實看起來現在軍方都沒有加入都沒有參與這個是什麼原因為什麼都強調軍方不參與不依賴國軍的支援這樣子的做法是對的嗎"},{"start":11200.779,"end":11214.328,"text":"其實我們的全社會防外任性的部分其實跟軍方的演習是並不相干啦只是說我們要了解說台灣未來發生一些緊急危難危害的時候我們對於國人的部分的全民的"},{"start":11215.488,"end":11231.937,"text":"的防衛 例如說有要防災室訓練還有緊急救護還有一些做一個處理我想跟國軍那個是不一樣的我在這邊我要提醒市長的就是說因為在我們的災害防救法裡面的規定基本上國軍是有一定的角色的"},{"start":11232.937,"end":11256.925,"text":"那在我們的民防法裡面其實也是說民防工作要與軍事情務相關的話他們是由中央主管局 內政部跟國防部一起督導執行也就是說我們今天辦理這些演習基本上不能夠說只是由民間或是由內政部去督導它未來它發生緊急事故的時候一定是國軍也會加入"},{"start":11257.965,"end":11263.449,"text":"所以未來在你們的這個相關的演習舉辦的時候實際演練那本席是認為基本上還是要能夠主動的聯繫國軍大家一起來辦這樣才有意義否則的話真的發生什麼情況的話變成是兩邊沒有辦法系統沒有辦法聯繫然後也忽略了國軍資源與國軍資源的這個整合是非常可惜的一件事情"},{"start":11283.103,"end":11307.036,"text":"因為在我們現行法裡面就已經有清楚的規定所以呢這個本席這邊也提出來就希望就是內政部也能夠去檢討未來相關演習的時候應該要結合國軍一起來舉辦這樣才會更有意義還能夠發揮實際的功效好不好好 那就這樣那就提供給次長做參考謝謝 下一位我們請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":11317.642,"end":11324.895,"text":"好謝謝主席我請一下我們內政部次長還有我們人事長"},{"start":11332.049,"end":11355.542,"text":"市長 任市長我想請問一下就是我們在整個的新住民發展署成立的過程裡面之前一直聽到說有關於滿額的問題就是我們的中央政府三級機關有70個的一個上限所以也一直都有一些協調這個負責協調的政務委員主要是誰 是哪一位"},{"start":11361.966,"end":11386.363,"text":"人事長是組織面還是顏額面就是在顏額面顏額面是沒有現在上次三級機關我們的上限是70調整為71那我想請問一下之前的政務委員史哲有沒有去協調這方面的就是我們有關於顏額顏額的這個已經滿額的問題有沒有"},{"start":11389.105,"end":11414.468,"text":"他是組三級機關的上線政委有去行政院內部去協調嗎史哲負責協調嘛 對不對所以我真的覺得我們一直等來等去等這個新住民發展署其實很多的新住民朋友已經等得非常不耐煩了可是等來等去呢那你可以看到我們的政務委員史哲去做了高鐵的董事長"},{"start":11415.589,"end":11428.434,"text":"那我們希望說那麼現在能夠加快腳步因為事實上在去年底的時候我們已經把這個原額數已經提高了嘛所以我想請問一下次長我們這個我們的新住民這個發展署"},{"start":11434.096,"end":11448.928,"text":"在我們的中央政府中央行政機關組織基準法已經修正通過之後應該可以加快腳步那請問一下到底什麼時候能夠實施那我也想請問因為你們114年度有沒有編列預算"},{"start":11452.439,"end":11467.9,"text":"跟委員報告我們有先行估算如果說今年成立的話我們會用走追加減我們明年的都已經在籌編概算中所以呢也就是說是可以在115年度來編列預算的"},{"start":11468.38,"end":11491.687,"text":"我們正在籌編好 正在籌編所以我為什麼要去問預算因為你們籌編才代表會有可能落實因為如果你根本沒有編列預算的話說也是白說而已我想請問一下我們這個發展署我們的原額會有多少我們主要的組織架構是什麼"},{"start":11492.686,"end":11515.163,"text":"我想這邊跟委員報告 那我們這一次我們未來的組織架構 業務執掌 業務緣額還有例如辦公處所跟預算那我們都是follow整個新住民基本法的內容去做處理那我們目前初步規劃是4個組12個然後正式緣額100人那這100人裡面其實大概會有將近50個是由移民署來做移撥那另外的話是請證緣額"},{"start":11517.276,"end":11534.677,"text":"主要是100多位,那會不會移民署有一些移撥到新住民發展署?目前移民署本來就是新住民的業務,那這些人就會隨從移撥到新住民發展署"},{"start":11535.216,"end":11552.294,"text":"那請問一下你剛才講的預算的編列是針對新住民發展署的預算編列而不是籌備處的編列吧當然是以署的方式來做編列那你們現在你們的概算大概這個金額會是多少"},{"start":11553.014,"end":11569.973,"text":"跟委員報告以今年來講的話如果今年可以成立之後我們預估接下來的下一個半年的部分大概是我們約需大概要一億八千萬那其中也包括新增人事費那未來明年的一一五年的籌編概算我們現在目前年度預算規模大概抓七億"},{"start":11570.894,"end":11598.108,"text":"就是以115年度是7億 是不是對 是的 所以按照這個你們的預算編列的方式呢就今年下半年度可以成立就是成立籌備處 是不是然後正式的掛牌 按照你們現在的這樣子估算正式的掛牌運作大概是什麼時間這個我目前還無法估算如果今年只要有成立 那應該就是會有走掛牌大概是這樣子"},{"start":11598.536,"end":11622.879,"text":"所以你就籌備出掛牌而已啊因為不是沒有我們的目標啦我們目標整個因為去年通過之後我們對於發展署所以我們才會說如果說在今年就成立的話我們就是今年下半年就要掛牌今年下半年可以正式的掛牌那因為我們覺得就是說我們一直希望說有一個具體的進度不要那個我們新住民基本法通過之後遲遲一直等不到"},{"start":11623.479,"end":11636.366,"text":"然後預算也等不到 籌備處也等不到所以比較明確今年下半年度是可以讓它正式掛牌政協跟委員報告就是施行法要一施行我們接下來包括組織法包括這個成立我們都會接續 照程序來"},{"start":11637.23,"end":11659.686,"text":"好 我們在我們的立法院裡面我們也會盡量能夠希望趕快我們這個相關的組織法趕快通過啦能夠 其實我會希望說如果我們朝野大家協商因為我們會進入竹條嘛那其實如果說你們在一些業務上面能夠盡量大家能夠達成一些協議的話那麼這個法"},{"start":11662.889,"end":11670.133,"text":"這個組織法的修正就不需要在立法院還要有什麼一個月的冷凍期就是變成說其實會拖延立法所以我們還是會希望能夠再做加速那另外剛才也有"},{"start":11678.059,"end":11696.438,"text":"也有這個委員談到就是我們的這個新住民的這個家庭啊那麼因為已經超過百萬人但是呢你如果看這些像求職網站他們做的一些調查也就是其實我們因為新住民有有些甚至有些被標籤化"},{"start":11698.22,"end":11709.085,"text":"所以他們能做的一些工作,當然不管是製造業,或者餐飲服務業,或者是清潔、江庭幫傭事實上他們的薪資都有比較偏低的問題而且有根據去計算,事實上大概有六成事實上他的收入是沒有達四萬元的"},{"start":11723.032,"end":11751.741,"text":"那所以低薪的問題確實在新住民家庭成為他們一個急需解決的問題所以我當然我們希望說能夠讓這個新住民這個發展署能夠及時快速的成立但是即使是在沒有成立之前也希望能夠透過一些輔導的方式加強的方式能讓我們新住民不管是在他的就業的機會或者他的薪資的部分能夠提"},{"start":11752.882,"end":11757.027,"text":"有很多的改善 或者能夠提升 好不好這個我們會配合勞動部的一個處理 我們都會來做"},{"start":11760.697,"end":11785.04,"text":"不過這個如果我們這個新住民發展署成立之後這些有關勞動部分還是推給勞動部嗎沒有 其實目前既有業務有一些就是分工是在勞動部那我們如果說成立新住民發展署那我想我們也有一個科會來負責這個業務對 就應該是由我們這個新住民發展署來負責啦不要就是又推給那個勞動部我們都是分工啦好 謝謝"},{"start":11787.952,"end":11806.304,"text":"好謝謝我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言另外我們修正先前的宣告因為上午的會議我們進行至所有登記發言委員詢答完畢後再散會討論事項法案另定其處理好我們請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":11813.176,"end":11823.663,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們內政部我們吳次長還有移民署林署長陸委會大陸委員會我們的法政處周處長市長回來請教了我今天早上聽了以後大家講那個整個新住民人數你們的統計現在是多少人"},{"start":11836.98,"end":11846.054,"text":"新住民人數目前如果是適用照新住民基本法第120條婚姻移民新住民子女跟專業及技術移民大概加起來大概130萬"},{"start":11850.984,"end":11868.39,"text":"那我想行政院這一次沒有院版那可能就是你們有所疑慮本席的看法是認為說這個整個新住民發展署的一個成立是代表我們台灣多元"},{"start":11869.19,"end":11889.751,"text":"共榮的一個里程碑啦,那也就代表說你剛剛提到的這樣130萬這個新竹民莊嚴的一個承諾,你說你們沒煩惱,政府只有你們的課稅,是在講這個但是業務的部分,我就有一點點意見啦,你像譬如說在整個基本法裡面,你的陸配那也算啦"},{"start":11890.851,"end":11907.19,"text":"也算啦那可是我今天看你們陸委會你們提出來的講法你們又是講說這個新住民事務主管機關成立以後不涉及陸委會業務的調整也沒有業務需要移撥到新住民事務主管機關你們是這樣講的"},{"start":11908.251,"end":11924.539,"text":"那這個我又有點疑慮啦你現在涉及到陸配如果說這個兩岸之間的一個往返當然大家現在講到的是說陸委會委託海基會行使公權力嘛 委託他們行使公權力那好啦 那新的機關成立以後那這一塊你們新的事有辦法去處理到時候還是跟海基會在處理那怎麼會你們今天陸委會的報告講說跟我們無色真的無色嗎 請說明"},{"start":11939.825,"end":11963.532,"text":"委員好 首先兩點 第一點陸委會的組織設立一直他是做政策協調政策擬定那我現在講的是你們當然是政策的協調跟規劃那我現在講的實際上涉及到兩岸人民之間的往返裡面他裡面有很多的有涉及到新住民嘛那涉及到新住民的話你說這一些以目前來講的話就是我們陸委會委託海基位來行使這個公權力來幫忙嘛"},{"start":11968.633,"end":11982.947,"text":"那新的署成立以後我說這一個業務你怎麼辦報告委員我們今天委託海基會處理的很多是屬於一些公權力以外的服務事項我是針對陸配的部分是嘛 就服務嘛"},{"start":11983.467,"end":12011.579,"text":"是服務事項那針對陸配本身在法律上應有的權益還是會回歸到原來移民署或將來成立的新住民發展署他們來處理譬如說身份的取得入出境的許可這都是跟公權力有關的事項不會由海基會來發那當然啦那我說那服務的呢你本來一個機關成立以後啊你說很多涉及到人民的福利啊保障啊那這些原來就是新設立的機關屬於他的執掌啦可是陸委會這塊你也是一樣在做啊"},{"start":12013.38,"end":12022.404,"text":"新的署成立以後 涉及到兩岸的新的署還是沒辦法去做我們對於陸配的關懷跟服務"},{"start":12024.178,"end":12045.058,"text":"一樣還是會持續在做我知道啦 但你會重疊啦到最後就不是新設立的新移民發展署不管名字叫做什麼新住民的發展署如果成立以後到最後不是新住民發展署委託海基會來行使公權力嗎還是陸委會在行使公權力啊委託海基會行使公權力啊"},{"start":12047.308,"end":12054.452,"text":"這部分有沒有這樣的問題基本上現在啊現在如果是以移民署在做的話現在當然還好啦新的機關成立以後啦"},{"start":12059.249,"end":12085.327,"text":"對於這一塊我們是認為說不會有太大的問題就因為不涉及到公權力的問題的話我們還是可以請海基會繼續來做都是服務啦都是服務如果沒有涉及到行使公權力的話那機關就不是義務就不是責任的問題啦照顧常常都後面因為你叫做公權力你看他會說都沒有裡面還沒講清楚啦"},{"start":12089.128,"end":12102.544,"text":"這個就是沒有院版裡面還沒有提出來的地方之一這個再好好想一想啦好不好再好好想一想啦那另外喔就是我其實我以台東為例啦那個處長你請回啦新住民人口現在差不多超過2%啦"},{"start":12103.965,"end":12120.209,"text":"其實對他們來看,我們每天碰到的笑容、汗水,其實這早就已經深深的融入這一塊土地了。他們其實已經都不是過客了,都算我們要當家人來看待嘛。但是社會上擔心,尤其我們今天在委員會裡面,我相信這一題,"},{"start":12122.55,"end":12143.055,"text":"這個草案它倒不是政黨之間大家攻防的問題 倒不是本席倒認為是說 你是如果說多一個署那你那個對我新住民來講的話 我要多一大堆表格或者說 啊你給一個機關變成一個衙門而已啊會不會多一份的一個折騰啊就是說機關的設立以後 我期待啊 要有溫度啦"},{"start":12145.564,"end":12158.095,"text":"這真的就是要有溫度啦 阿沒有喔那兩瓶瓶喔 只是流程的一個堆疊而已啊所以我要請教就是說跨部會的分工齁 到最後啊你這不能小拍桿 你知不知道很怕到要 齁 啊 這 讓人覺得說在這樣"},{"start":12163.499,"end":12183.076,"text":"踢皮球啦所以你如何去精準的界定誰該負責些什麼如何去讓它變成有效率跟有效能的一個協調平台我認為這個就很重要了這個面對這樣的一個廣泛的一個跨部會的性質大家都非常清楚啊你不要這樣去劃分啊避免讓新住民"},{"start":12184.937,"end":12197.342,"text":"繞圈圈 我覺得這個就 我先講在前頭啦就是我們這整個草案裡面 就是這幾個問題啦另外你說說 新的署跟移民署這個 移民署長你就必須要去看待這個問題啦你也不能分別先做"},{"start":12200.163,"end":12214.85,"text":"你也不能說這樣不明不白你像譬如說以目前你移民署你負責路徑 拘留 規劃這現在你移民署的嘛可是你新署以後又著引於權益的保障跟社會的一個融入要怎麼簽"},{"start":12216.37,"end":12231.236,"text":"你說業務沒有移波 你不可能啊那所以說呢 你在現實中新住民來台初期他最需要的其實是什麼 語言嘛 語言的訓練嘛那你說生活適應啊 或者說要找工作 就業的一個媒合那請問啊 這些業務到最後"},{"start":12233.857,"end":12242.573,"text":"你是你移民署 你現在你扶著板 正經就好那個證照就好了然後新的 新的成立了一個署那你來總體的輔導都要包開還是你們兩邊再這樣去重疊請教社長"},{"start":12248.5,"end":12264.266,"text":"這個部分是不是請署長因為我之前在開會的時候也是針對哪一些是要業務移撥哪一些是留在移民署的就是像剛剛委員談的除了進之外因為他可能身份是新住民那新住民之後他進來的時候哪一些業務從既有的移民署業務我就把它移撥到"},{"start":12265.106,"end":12286.781,"text":"那個新住民發展署大概是這樣那如果細節我再請署長說一下所以就是涉及到你漁民署你本來是側重權益的保障跟融入的輔導你新住民發展署你接下來掌管的是從那個入境居留規劃取得甚至國局法律身份這些事情你們就要明確去做一個劃分了啦那另外啊"},{"start":12287.691,"end":12307.252,"text":"我相信移民署現在是被大家口碑最好的就是你們那個一站式的服務啦新住民我看他們是最熟悉的那我要問的就是說那你新的署成立以後民眾是不是還在原服務站一站就可以搞定所有的諮詢跟申辦"},{"start":12310.932,"end":12338.469,"text":"這裡跟委員報告就是今天冤枉路啦 這樣簡單講啦因為如果新住民發展署成立之後他各縣市的手腳會回歸到所謂的這個新住民家庭服務中心那新住民家庭服務中心透過我們所謂的這個新住民發展基金裡面去做對各縣市做補助目前有41個處所包括有公辦公營跟跟這個公辦民營委託代辦這個部分所以"},{"start":12338.909,"end":12354.76,"text":"耳後的話當然我們服務站我們在這個過渡階段裡面我們也會對於新住民他相關的權益保障有需要就諮詢的部分我們會協助做一個轉介但是發展署成立之後他耳後的手腳會歸到所謂的這個新住民家庭服務中心以上"},{"start":12355.1,"end":12383.591,"text":"好 新署的成立的誕生我跟你講我們樂觀其成但是我們很怕一個機關的誕生你到最後讓老百姓多走了一些遠廣路你多設一個署其實沒有困難 很容易但是你怎麼樣少讓這些新住民多跑一趟路啊這個才是我們設立這個的真本事啦所以這個涉及到整個新機關的一個成立我們立場其實就很簡單啦新住民他不是一個族群啦"},{"start":12384.198,"end":12409.958,"text":"他其實就是用家人的概念這樣去看待那我們期待這一些我們今天新竹的一個成立業務權責分清楚讓他變成新住民的一個靠山你共足一個不只是共榮還是要共榮的一個台灣這個部分業務的部分我相信在主條的時候你們也要跟各個機關你們要把這個事權去弄清楚好不好好 謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":12415.366,"end":12431.432,"text":"我們現在請那個牛許廷代理主席 差一點叫成小明好 謝謝 下一位我們請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":12444.844,"end":12458.053,"text":"麻煩請那個次長 內政部次長吳次長有請我們之前新住民的業務啊很多都是在地方政府嘛然後配合中央辦理嘛 那地方政府"},{"start":12458.866,"end":12488.048,"text":"散在很多局啦就我了解至少有在教育局或者是在民政局是的民政局就是主要是負責護證的部分那之後我們這個新住民發展署成立之後到時候是怎麼去跟地方多對接這邊跟委員報告那我們這次新住民基本法的內容的部分其實我們就是照基本法裡面從從第一條到最後一條的部分它有關勞動權益語言家庭照護還有一些調查還有一些文化輔導"},{"start":12489.005,"end":12507.07,"text":"這些東西我們都是照這個然後去規劃未來就是成立四個組織OK 我是覺得那個新住民發展組很重要因為過去因為是站在不同的業務所以大家可能就只著重在他自己的部分但應該要有一個更上位的機關他去了解新住民真正的需求訂定目標之後再來推動"},{"start":12508.41,"end":12537.554,"text":"這個絕對是有成立這個署絕對是有對新住民是比較好的那我這邊特別提出一個啊我認為這個新住民發展署未來應該要努力做一件事情就是去消除我們這個社會現在對於新住民的歧視我覺得現在有一部分是越來越嚴重之前有曾經就是好像有發生過對於東南亞的新住民歧視我看過一個案例啊說有一個新二代他是越南的因為皮膚比較黑啊就被認為是外籍那個非法移工啊"},{"start":12537.898,"end":12559.639,"text":"然後警察在盤查的過程當中因為他抗拒所以頭撞到後來縫了17針當時就引起新住民的群組很熱烈的討論就覺得說為什麼是新住民就成為台灣的一份子為什麼要被這樣歧視對待其實那時候引起很大的一個負面的影響現在我發現就是大家對於"},{"start":12561.3,"end":12578.39,"text":"對於這個陸配也有產生很大的歧視最近我看到好多網路的新聞有人在社群上面分享說他坐一個計程車那個計程車的司機疑似有中國口音然後看起來名字叫鐵軍啊所以就想說哇 這個是不是有國安問題不是啊 他也有可能是陸配啊"},{"start":12579.21,"end":12603.516,"text":"新住民啊,所以新住民開計程車,養家活口,就有國安問題嗎?然後這兩天,昨天也在網路上看到有一個網友啊,他講說他坐捷運,在滑手機,旁邊就有人問他說,你是不是在監控我們,你是中國人嗎?然後他覺得不舒服啊,他說奇怪了,在旁邊滑手機,為什麼要被這樣子質疑啊?"},{"start":12604.136,"end":12628.854,"text":"然後另外有一個人去留言說 欸這樣好啊 這樣質疑的好為什麼 因為代表大家隨時都提高警覺啊那個有保密防諜啊不是 這完全歧視嘛就是這個難道 這個有陸配以後 喔這是中國口音啊或者怎麼樣 就會被認為有國安問題那個共諜是隨便讓你看得到的嗎 請問一下吳釗燮在當那個外交部長的時候 他旁邊有共諜他有發現嗎"},{"start":12630.739,"end":12650.985,"text":"我覺得這種情緒不能在台灣繼續蔓延所以現在新住民發展所還沒有成立但是我們還是有相關的機關在處理這方面的業務可不可以我們要促進融合而不是在我們國內找敵人我們可不可以請內政部在這方面做一點努力"},{"start":12652.577,"end":12673.189,"text":"市長好謝謝委員我想我們新住民基本法的架構也是以保障多元文化跟維護現代的權益對啦執行面嘛我現在是把社會我觀察到社會的一些氛圍跟您講嘛我覺得大家因為已經變這樣了我們要做一些努力去消弭這樣的一個歧視啦我們應該要這樣做對對對那是不是可以真的做啦好不要口號好不好"},{"start":12673.909,"end":12698.518,"text":"謝謝委員 其實我們現在都在做相關的業務其實未來移民署把這一部分業務移到新住民發展署我們也是要把這個業務現在也是要做 之後也是要做 了解新住民的需求然後好好的照顧新住民 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員的諮詢下一位我們請蘇清泉委員諮詢蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在下一位我們請徐姓委員諮詢"},{"start":12707.454,"end":12725.228,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請吳次長吳次長有請我想今天大家在談我們今天的有關新住民的不管是組織法或者是整個發展署"},{"start":12727.104,"end":12754.162,"text":"這個的組織法草案但是大家都要談到的包括您剛剛在答詢的時候也提到就是說其實新住民的權益新住民朋友他來到我們台灣這個整個的生活工作就業各方面他們有很多需要我們政府做得更多更好那今天本席這短短的時間我想特別針對我們新住民朋友在職場的平權"},{"start":12757.043,"end":12778.713,"text":"還有他跟職場相關的執訓的部分來跟您討論首先第一個就是說新住民我們如果要打造一個就業平權的環境目前您所了解的我們現在最欠缺的是什麼"},{"start":12781.566,"end":12809.076,"text":"那我想這邊簡單跟委員報告我想新住民基本法還沒通過之前其實移民署都有相關的新住民的業務那就是包括語言、勞動、就業、教育、文化你剛剛有講那以這些主軸來講的話那對於他的勞動權益的部分那其實我們從去年開始之後我們做籌備小組那這個我們也是包括像勞動部哪一些業務本身是他寄存的業務那他的業務如果哪些可以移撥到我這邊來"},{"start":12809.616,"end":12837.174,"text":"好 那等一下 我現在時間很短 我要focus一點現在有很大的問題反映出來我們這個新住民朋友他們的這種低薪超時的情況當然我們台灣勞工可能也有但是他們感覺起來也有相對低薪超時還有他們在文化差異或語言差異下所受到的歧視剛剛我相信前面很多委員都有質詢過"},{"start":12838.755,"end":12853.128,"text":"所以這一塊我們有沒有更積極而且具體的一些改善跟具體的做法我想謝委員您剛談的這些部分其實我們也會後續跟勞動部來做個討論因為確實今天勞動部沒來應該沒有有"},{"start":12868.98,"end":12896.193,"text":"王副組長委員好剛剛我們所提到的就是現在新住民朋友怎麼樣為新住民打造一個就業平權的環境我想新住民朋友有關這個方面的需求已經很多年了但是我們希望能夠真正面對而且很具體是"},{"start":12897.461,"end":12912.939,"text":"其實你們所做的努力你重點是在講一下我們新住民在台灣其實他的就業權益就跟我們的國人的所有權益的保障都是相同的這個概念是沒有錯"},{"start":12914.361,"end":12933.266,"text":"那如果說他在工作上他有遇到其實我們其實其實我們在他的就業情況的調查其實也有發現就是說我們陸配啊在職場上受到的不要特別針對陸配現在太敏感了我們整個的新住民好不好包含東南亞各方面因為我們也看到"},{"start":12934.506,"end":12953.619,"text":"新住民朋友有些他比如說高學歷高失業率或是高學歷然後但是他的薪資比一般還要低所以這一塊我們應該想一些方法來這個就是平權嘛既然我們的政府也一直強調平權我想他們都已經規劃成為我們中華民國國民"},{"start":12956.861,"end":12974.568,"text":"然後再來確實存在的文化差異跟語言差異我們應該要更積極我相信一直以來都有在做但是如果這種情況還是存在表示什麼我們過去做的根本沒有燒到洋處還有只是做個表面或是做個敷衍交代這樣是不好的"},{"start":12975.444,"end":13001.941,"text":"因為包括我相信很多委員我們不斷的接觸新住民以及新住民的領袖他們還是一直反映需要的是這個那為什麼我今天的質詢特別強調職業就是因為職業這個他可以伴隨他最長等於他這一生他來到這他工作的職場時間可能三四十年那所以我們希望這一塊能夠來加強"},{"start":13006.571,"end":13010.315,"text":"現在沒有什麼特別具體的作為因為時間的關係 再來我們這個"},{"start":13015.454,"end":13036.604,"text":"新住民我們應該除了剛剛我所講的之外沒有沒有一起我接著講的也還是這種職訓對於他們的各種職業類型我知道有在辦但是好像這個一些職業訓練或者是他的就業媒合平台還是很不足"},{"start":13037.472,"end":13058.636,"text":"那這個部分包含高階一點的高階執訓有沒有特別在做他們如果考證照因為他是新住民嘛那當然我們一般民眾本來就需要考證照但他們因為比較特殊的不管語言或生活文化的差異我們有沒有特殊的協助"},{"start":13060.523,"end":13086.483,"text":"我們這邊對於職業訓練的需求目前最大宗的就是美容美髮業然後在民宿管理業那成長最多的其實我們在電腦資訊業電腦及資訊類別這邊也有一些那我請問所謂的高階職訓班你們有沒有特別有規劃因為我們有分一般的職訓還有高階"},{"start":13088.046,"end":13112.034,"text":"其實他們的訓練都是都一樣就是說如果他可以符合需求其實都可以參加我們的所有的訓練他都是可以參加的好那最後我想問的是為什麼他們那種特別高學歷可是呢他可能失業率也比我們一般同樣學歷的我們的民眾特別他失業率特高這個情況你們有重視嗎這我最後一個問題"},{"start":13112.894,"end":13126.564,"text":"其實在我們的調查裡面我們新住民他的勞參率跟失業率其實跟我們一般民眾的比起來他勞參率在112年是75%比我們一般民眾勞參率59.5%還要高那是失業率你那是整體失業率"},{"start":13137.324,"end":13144.003,"text":"那我指的是比較高學歷的 失業率你們有了解到這一塊嗎"},{"start":13146.557,"end":13169.633,"text":"也就是說他不管他是新住民之子還是本身他就是屬於比較有專業而且高學歷的他來到台灣他好像很難融入我們的職場那我們其實可以善用我也看到這個在社會上包含我們這個各雜誌媒體他們也在呼籲這一塊是不是這一塊可以要來加強"},{"start":13171.494,"end":13191.608,"text":"那這個部分對於那個高學歷的部分我們再去猜解一下它的那個我說猜解那個數字其實你們要重視今天我諮詢了你們真的要重視這已經很社會上也已經討論很多了那今天還好像還沒有辦法回答本席的問題表示我們希望再加強好不好"},{"start":13193.14,"end":13220.918,"text":"有關高學歷我會到時候連同教育單位因為大概有些是來台灣就學的那如果說他可以留在台灣這個也是一種那另外就是說來台灣就學沒有留在台灣他沒有規劃我們的我講的倒不是我講的是我們中華民國國民裡面是新住民的部分就是已經是變成中華民國國民的新住民好不好這個我們會連同勞動部跟教育部都可以一起討論好那我想說未來我們這個會麻煩一定要加強好 謝謝"},{"start":13223.564,"end":13227.628,"text":"好謝謝徐欣盈委員下一個我們請劉許廷委員質詢好謝謝吼我們這個吳次長有請請吳次長吳次長午安大家辛苦了這個"},{"start":13247.369,"end":13276.148,"text":"我們現在很擔心啦因為上次修正行政院組織法增加一個署的空間是因為配合我們內政委員會修正這個新住民基本法嘛這個民定基本上要有所謂的相關的一個專責機關那當初大家的共識基本上都是這樣但是大家其實都挺擔心的就是說這一個署在那個地方每一個部都也虎視眈眈所以我在詢問相關內容之前我要問一下這個新住民發展署"},{"start":13278.25,"end":13298.508,"text":"多了這個數到最後不是新住民發展組有沒有可能出現這樣的事謝謝委員指教我想我們依照基本法的第四條就很明定要成立中央三級機關那我們從去年開始公告的時候我們就朝這個目標一直在努力所以說我們都已經整理完了大概也四個組12個科100人的規模有沒有其他的部會在"},{"start":13299.85,"end":13324.009,"text":"期待這個新的緣額就你的了解可能我只能focus在我內政部的業務你有沒有辦法把握現在我們內政部是走最快最積極的而且最接近的應該是嘛我們一直都走很快喔好這我們要提醒一下嘛就是說如果最後被人家攔胡的話那其實是違反新住民基本法嘛對不對我們政府機關政府一體不能夠自己做出一些讓自己政策打架的事嘛對不對所以吳市長應該會非常積極推動這件事對不對"},{"start":13325.55,"end":13343.643,"text":"我一直在做因為這個事關我們要不要快速通關嘛對不對大家其實有很多人很緊張就是因為擔心說這個數到最後被人家攔戶其實我聽起來應該是不會啦因為今天不管朝野各黨在談這樣的事情的時候基本上都是大家都是對焦在新住民的政策嘛我們也希望新住民這個東西趕快來處理好"},{"start":13344.784,"end":13370.479,"text":"那麼就是內容的部分跟市長來做一下討論現在我們一些籌備小組開了很多次的籌備會議其實基本上你們人央馬翻因為在成立新的署之後才會有新的員額新的人進來負責新的事務但在籌備的階段其實每多籌備一天對內政部來講就是尤其對移民署來講它其實就是很大的負擔因為就本期的了解現在大概都是移民署本來是移民署下面的科所以就這一群人在做"},{"start":13371.359,"end":13394.75,"text":"在這顆的人力元額這樣的數量在處理未來一個署要做的事情 包含籌備其實是非常非常辛苦那我想請教 如果說我們這個法案順利通過新住民發展署趕快給它成立之後這人力的問題 人力的缺口要怎麼樣來增補你還是要從移民署調派嗎還是我會來重新招考大概會有多少元額這部分有沒有一些相關的資料可以提供呢"},{"start":13395.29,"end":13420.383,"text":"好 謝謝我想跟委員報告我去年到現在已經召開七次主持的會議其實也針對人員的員額我們都有在我們內政部包括人事處還有人總這邊有一些是需要請證那原本業務移撥的部分的話就是移民署大概會有將近50位同仁要移撥到未來的新竹營發展署那另外請證員大概也要將近50個那這個部分我們都有跟人事處跟人事總署都有所以大概會是100個"},{"start":13422.284,"end":13440.479,"text":"我們認為目前的最適規模我們未來成長大概也是抓到100也是在100個左右是的好這個我希望他明確所以然後我我想次長你應該也不希望這個法案耽擱對不對你也希望這個署趕快來成立對不對"},{"start":13441.369,"end":13466.159,"text":"我覺得這個只要是政策我們都會推動政策都會推動因為今天本來是希望今天可以做但因為這個大家議程的安排或怎麼樣當然我們尊重這邊主席的安排但沒有關係我本席是非常希望他可以盡速來成立那我們再三強調這個新的新住民發展組絕對不能被攬股啦好不好如果我覺得這有共識的話大家可能就比較安心一點那第二個就是人力的支援啦我們也希望內政部這邊更加積極因為"},{"start":13468.98,"end":13489.185,"text":"你拖一天就是移民署累一天嘛移民署撥走五十個人之後移民署既有利益會不會受影響我再追問一下這個我要不要請我們署長來補充一下好啊 可以啊 移民署署長有請因為成立新的署其實兩個單位就有工作屬性會調整屬性會調整嘛 一部分工作會分出去嘛 對不對所以你五十人規模會有什麼樣的具體影響我也來探討一下"},{"start":13491.516,"end":13500.307,"text":"委員好我們這邊跟委員做一個報告齁其實這個目前為止我們新住民基本法相關的一些業務齁那"},{"start":13502.355,"end":13524.418,"text":"我們移民署現在在承辦新住民的這些相關業務裡面總共有13項業務然後因為我們新住民基本法裡面在新住民的定義裡面有做了一個擴張所以會有所謂的擴大辦理的業務總共有15項然後因為我們也把所謂的技術跟所謂的專業的移民也納進去了所以會有我們"},{"start":13526.68,"end":13553.312,"text":"56項的一個新增業務所以到時候我們移民署原本的既有的13項業務我們會持續的來推動那新增跟擴大的部分可能就這個新發署來接續以上所以50個人基本上對移民署來講衝擊就還可以因為本來就是這50個人本來就是在做跟新住民相關的嘛你只是換一個服務單位這樣子的概念對不對好那你們這個人力轉調計畫的一些期程你們自己有沒有內部抓時間表"},{"start":13555.814,"end":13585.218,"text":"沒關係都可以看誰要回答因為這個主要我們必須得配合所謂我們的這個這個新住民基本法的一個施行日的實踐嘛所以說早一點處理完其實就早一點把這個短期資源跟中間籌備工作趕快做一個了結嘛對不對所以本期當然是非常希望這個東西可以盡速來處理那最後一點點時間針對各個委員現在提出來的版本組織法律修正其實我覺得內容大同小異請問這個我們行政機關這邊針對法條的內容有什麼意見或者是不同意的地方嗎"},{"start":13586.138,"end":13600.068,"text":"我想簡單跟委員報告,我今天看到的各個版本部分可能有一些是屬於並非屬於三級機關的權責,譬如說國家考試,另外還有社會保險,社會保險因為在基本法裡面沒有這項規定,所以可能會逾越母法沒有授權。"},{"start":13603.925,"end":13625.997,"text":"那你們有沒有跟提案委員提早進行溝通跟說明呢我們收到版本之後其實也盡量趕快來先整理好 因為我希望就盡速說明嘛既然今天還沒有要進入到主條審查的階段那我們行政機關應該是利用時間早一點把你們會認為可能會自然難行的部分提早跟提案委員說明那我也相信各黨黨團會提前進行整合讓後續的審查速度可以加快那只要前期溝通做好後續速度加快"},{"start":13626.557,"end":13642.162,"text":"趕快讓這個東西落袋為安趕快拍板那我想趕快讓對我們的新住民朋友施以更大的援手讓這個品質可以更加提升希望喔這個不管黨派好這應該是一個這個跨黨派的共識啦好希望我們可以盡快努力盡速達成好嗎好市長辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":13644.221,"end":13659.888,"text":"好 謝謝所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本聯席會"},{"start":13660.948,"end":13679.107,"text":"那委員劉許廷吳啟明所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議進行到此討論事項所列兩案報告及詢答完畢作如下決議均另定期繼續審查現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16768","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e881a30a5cb1aad77ad9f551ce5fa921f8b19dddded0b194faea0b2f9862bd20f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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bwd6"},{"start":1120.064,"end":1120.926,"text":"好久不見"},{"start":1925.155,"end":1950.96,"text":"現在繼續開會請議事委員宣讀今日的議程邀請財政部莊部長翠玲衛生福利部邱部長太元法務部海洋委員會海巡署就近三年煙酒管理法對於私煙含電子煙加熱煙查緝成效與煙品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形進行專題報告並被質詢宣布完畢"},{"start":1954.653,"end":1962.437,"text":"我們現在原例介紹在場的委員跟與會的政府官員首先林德福委員吳秉瑞委員我們介紹政府官員財政部莊部長公務署的陳署長護稅署的宋署長以及關務署的彭署長"},{"start":1984.472,"end":2012.59,"text":"還有國務財政署的曾署長財政資訊中心的張主任衛生福利部的邱部長以及國健署的吳署長食藥署的王副署長醫事室的劉副市長長期照顧室的吳律師長及管制署的楊組長"},{"start":2016.451,"end":2038.055,"text":"健保署的陳組長社會及家庭署的楊組長法務部檢察室的主任檢察官劉檢察官以及林檢察官海洋委員會海巡署謝護署長情報組的廖組長"},{"start":2043.427,"end":2049.469,"text":"以及正方式的滕主任曾黃分署的黃分署長"},{"start":2052.861,"end":2073.907,"text":"好 今天議程安排邀請財政部莊部長翠雲 衛生福利部邱部長泰元法務部海洋委員會海巡署就近三年研究管理法對於私菸含電子菸加熱菸查緝成效"},{"start":2075.729,"end":2081.139,"text":"與菸品健康圈經費分配局運作使用情形進行專題報告現在請財政部的專務部長進行專題報告 請"},{"start":2092.045,"end":2119.202,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會安排就近三年的菸酒管理法對於失菸含電子菸跟加熱菸的茶氣成效以及菸品健康捐的經費分配及運作情形進行專題報告接下來請就本部的業務部分我們說明如下首先就是近三年違法菸品茶氣成效還有精進作為對於違法菸品的茶氣成效從111年到113年"},{"start":2121.623,"end":2127.927,"text":"查獲的違法菸品分別為1564萬包跟1838萬包以及1120萬包那麼113年的查獲量比112年減少了718萬包那麼但是查獲的件數是增加了4589件那主要是因為邊境走私的菸品轉變為國內地下的菸廠來產製私菸"},{"start":2147.11,"end":2153.132,"text":"而且從大型的製菸設備違法製菸轉變為地點分散而且規模小型化以至於使以查獲違法菸品的數量降低但是查氣的困難度卻是相對的增加那麼114年到5月底在中央和地方查氣機關的努力之下違法菸品查獲量是826萬包那麼和113年同期比較是增加了283萬包增加幅度是52%"},{"start":2177.701,"end":2184.045,"text":"目前還沒有經衛福部核定通過健康風險評估審查的加熱菸市面上的加熱菸都是屬於私菸查獲數量有逐年上升的一個趨勢在113年查獲的是229萬包"},{"start":2199.025,"end":2226.595,"text":"就要113年是增幅達到131.91%那114年到5月底那麼茶貨的一個數量113萬包呢比114年同期也增幅達到72.66%在電子菸的部分電子菸它因為不含菸草所以不屬於菸酒管理法所管理的範圍邊境的管制是由海關配合衛福部執行查緝市面上則是由地方衛生單位來負責查緝"},{"start":2228.556,"end":2246.907,"text":"那麼煙品茶器的精進作為包括本部每年會訂定加強茶器失煙煙酒測淨的計畫並且將地下煙廠以及加熱煙等新型違法的太陽列為重點的茶器對象第二個為了有效茶器地下的煙廠我們除了請海關運用風險管理機制並且善用X光檢查儀加強茶器進口貨物虛報豁免或是夾纏煙業或煙絲以及制煙設備的案件"},{"start":2259.141,"end":2264.284,"text":"同時也請地方政府要把廢棄或偏遠地區的工廠列為查查的重點那麼對於加熱菸請海關我們也請海關將快遞郵包列為查棄的重點透過情資的分析鎖定相關高風險人員或者是貨物我們截查於關口"},{"start":2278.874,"end":2291.933,"text":"另外本部也將會在近日會召開會議我們會邀集衛福部、署罰部、中央還有地方的查緝機關來延伸精進失菸查緝的一個作為並且修正我們的一個加強撤進的計畫"},{"start":2294.376,"end":2320.015,"text":"對於煙捐分配和運用情形根據煙害防治法及煙捐分配運作辦法的規定煙捐徵收的金額其中的1%是供中央以及地方撕裂煙品茶器及防治煙品稅捐逃漏之用那麼本部貨配的煙捐其中95%用作茶器撕煙之用那麼5%作防治煙品稅捐逃漏之用"},{"start":2320.675,"end":2336.468,"text":"那麼撕裂菸品茶器經費近三年的平均數是2.56億元其中提供給中央茶器機關及地方政府是2.33億元其中0.23億元是由本部國庫署作為茶器資訊系統的維護還有業務宣導等用途"},{"start":2340.071,"end":2366.71,"text":"對於防治煙品的稅捐逃漏經費的運用情形防治煙品稅捐逃漏經費近三年平均是0.13億元主要是撥供本部負稅署來督導各地區國稅局辦理宣導活動來提供民眾正確租稅常識以及防漏防渡逃漏稅捐之用那麼對於檢舉或查獲違規煙酒案件獎勵金請領以及核發的程序那麼根據我們"},{"start":2368.211,"end":2379.879,"text":"檢舉或查獲違規煙酒案件的獎勵辦法的規定違規煙酒案件在判決或行政處分確定之後那麼就會由地方政府逐案的提報給本部的國庫署申請發給獎勵金那麼這個獎勵金是發給檢舉人以及查緝機關"},{"start":2387.024,"end":2393.807,"text":"那麼本部國庫署都沒有支領相關的獎勵金那麼為強化菸酒獎勵金的勤領程序還有管理的機制本部可進行檢討以及做精進的作為那最後的結語本部將根據和各茶器機關通力合作來積極茶器步伐滾動檢討茶器措施還有精進作為來提升我們茶器以及管理的效能"},{"start":2412.057,"end":2417.765,"text":"達到維護市場的秩序以及確保國家稅收的目標以上敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2432.785,"end":2455.363,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 今天 答應第十一屆第三會期財政委員會召開第十八次全體委員會議 本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸之就今三年N9管理法對失煙含電子煙交流源查緝成效以煙品健康福利與經費分配及運作使用情形提出專案報告 敬請各位委員不吝會議執教"},{"start":2457.324,"end":2482.953,"text":"一 備警說明為防範電子煙危害本部推動修訂煙害防治法全面禁止電子煙等烈煙品及未經核定通過健康風險評估審查之指定煙品含加熱煙二 電子煙及加熱煙管制測試及成效一 跨部會合作嚴妥管制有建議非法煙煙品取得來源系透過網路販售管道為主"},{"start":2483.533,"end":2504.034,"text":"本部追討相關部會進行沿途管理以邊界攔截加強網路稽查違法販售資訊及強化跨單位查緝等精進作為更成立跨部會M&M查緝平台從供應面、販售面及使用面進行各階段分工合作"},{"start":2504.614,"end":2520.028,"text":"本部已召開114年第一次電子煙查緝平台會議整合台政部等九大部會持續強化源頭阻斷稽查執行以網路監控作為此外本部已著手檢討並推動煙害防治法修法工作納入"},{"start":2521.329,"end":2543.631,"text":"電子煙等烈煙品沒入機制及完善網際網路違法廣告行銷行為管制以守護國連健康二 監測及稽查取締情形為杜絕網路販售電子煙及加油煙違法資訊本部同步強化網路平台合作與監測自112年至114年5月抵制本部國民健康署"},{"start":2544.111,"end":2565.816,"text":"通報平台業者及其自主管理下架,涉違反煙害防治法案件合計44,681件。從114年監測案件中,政府民間及業者合作下架案件達4.4%,電子煙及加熱煙產品在購物平台違法販售情況初步已有控制。"},{"start":2566.696,"end":2575.681,"text":"中央與地方政府共同加強稽查電子煙及加熱煙等違法產品至112年至114年5月底開立處分書計6,367件,計裁法現代幣約5.4億元,另予與財政部官務署合作,以邊界攔截違法產品後檢護"},{"start":2588.288,"end":2612.817,"text":"相關事證資料已請地方政府依NHK防治法N9管理法查處3.N品健康福利兼經費分配及運作使用情形NHK防治法明定N間用途並依N間分配及運用辦法規定之分配比例應用各秀分配機關年度經費之止血情況及成效等相關資訊依法每年於機關網站公開結語"},{"start":2615.698,"end":2632.919,"text":"本部持續推動《NR防治法》部分條文修正草案並更系對網路平台及販售者加強監測與稽查判未來呈強力執法工具本部呈答應各委員執職教及監督在此靜置歇程並期各位委員繼續予以支持 以上謝謝"},{"start":2636.251,"end":2659.819,"text":"好 謝謝邱部長的專題報告那麼我們還有兩個單位的報告就請委員自行參閱因為這個海巡署的報告跟側政部的有些資料是有一點重疊的法務部等一下有各位要問的話再問好了所以我們現在開始先做一下的宣告"},{"start":2661.018,"end":2678.098,"text":"每位出席委員發言八分鐘必要的時候延長兩分鐘每位列席委員發言五分鐘今天上午十點鐘截止發言登記現在請依登記順序登記地位的林德福委員執行請"},{"start":2693.76,"end":2698.967,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請財政部莊部長財政部的莊部長請委員長莊部長你好我請教因為賴總統日前接見"},{"start":2709.622,"end":2728.112,"text":"美國聯邦眾議員國會台灣連線共同主席貝拉訪問團時刻提到期待解決台美雙重課稅法案能在今年順利完成立法"},{"start":2728.812,"end":2751.052,"text":"那台美雙重課稅法案雖然在美國眾議院有通過但是還必須面對兩關啦兩個關卡就是參議院的表決通過以美國總統的簽署那我請問莊部長這個台美雙重課稅法案最快你認為何時在美國參議院進行處理"},{"start":2756.124,"end":2760.986,"text":"跟委員報告台美避免雙重課稅這個協定的案子謝謝委員的關心您的關心也可以表達國內各界對這個法案的期盼除了眾議院在1月15號通過之外參院同時也在1月23號提出了一個內容一致的法案"},{"start":2776.536,"end":2782.322,"text":"所以基本上這個法案是美國國會跨黨派的一個支持當然目前美國國會參議院還在處理他們其他的一個法案但是我們本部外交部還有駐美代表處都維持一個推案的動能以及就如同您剛剛所講的不管總統也好副總統也好在接見美國相關的團體的時候都會表達這樣的意願"},{"start":2800.18,"end":2822.579,"text":"以及美台商会的协会还有台湾美国商会等等都在努力的在促进这个案子那你认为在今年年底这个有没有信心在年底这个美国能够完成立法程序这个部分我们当然是希望越快越好这样子可以避免这个双方跨境投资者一个课税的一个重复课针"},{"start":2823.086,"end":2834.359,"text":"那但是有關其成的部分不是我方所能夠掌控控制的但是我們會努力的做這個推案的一個進行的一個相關努力動作都會在各個方面"},{"start":2834.758,"end":2854.447,"text":"那委員的一個質詢事實上也是表達了國內的一些期盼我希望越快越好那個部長因為日前發布我國五月出口的金額首度突破500億美元創下517.4億美元的新高跟去年同期增加38.6%"},{"start":2857.848,"end":2881.164,"text":"增幅度增加的幅度驚人外界認為主要原因是因為川普關稅戰暫緩90天的緣故強勁的拉貨效應那帶動大幅出口那今年一到五月我國對美貿易寸差已經達到418億美元估計前年將會超過1000億美元那我請問部長對此現象"},{"start":2887.81,"end":2888.357,"text":"有何解讀呢"},{"start":2889.705,"end":2895.047,"text":"是跟委員報告確實5月份的出口達到517億美元是創歷年來的一個新高從來沒有超過500億美元而1到5月份的部分我們的累計出口也達到2300億跟去年同期比是成長24%這個部分當然有我們的人工智慧的一個創新科技的商機持續的一個擴展在國際間那第二個部分當然還有一些部分的科技新品上市要準備要再做一些推"},{"start":2918.097,"end":2936.723,"text":"那你認為這是不是拉貨的效應關稅的關係當然美國關稅這個措施有一個延緩90天的實施那麼客戶端他把那個需求提早提出來然後也加大的拉貨的力道這個確實是有這樣的一個因素在裡面那是短暫的那我請問對此現象的解讀你是否對台美關稅談判將來會帶來不利的影響會不會"},{"start":2945.486,"end":2945.866,"text":"但是齁"},{"start":2961.983,"end":2979.172,"text":"從各方面去觀察其實你看我們鄰近的國家包括日本、韓國甚至於對岸他們都很硬就是跟美國在談關稅的時候很硬但是我們就是剛好對倒"},{"start":2980.032,"end":3006.812,"text":"相反不要說到時候是因為我們這幾個月這個粗糙而且是大幅度的增長那帶來未來有很不好的一個結果我們是期待能夠跟其他的國家能夠比而且不要超越現在差不多百分之十到百分之三十"},{"start":3008.152,"end":3033.978,"text":"那當然十以下是最好啦那我再請教部長以色列跟伊朗之間的衝突沒有降溫的跡象那美國總統川普也對外表示開始考慮對伊朗來發動攻擊那多數專家認為短期內亞洲整體股市將會走跌中東戰爭將衝擊整個全球的原物料"},{"start":3034.998,"end":3058.098,"text":"包括能源、運輸以及全球的這些供應鏈油價與黃金價格上漲若中東供油長期受阻通盆將持續升溫今年3月行政院物價穩定小組宣布進口大宗物資免稅或減稅的期限到9月底"},{"start":3059.178,"end":3086.883,"text":"那請問部長如果美國對伊朗進一步採取攻擊中東衝突擴大行政院物價穩定小組與財政部是我會緊急來調整整個大宗物資降稅相關的措施以來穩定我們國內的物價會不會是跟委員報告那個中東情勢的緊張當然會影響到能源市場的一些價格的一些波動以及其他供應鏈的一些影響"},{"start":3087.663,"end":3094.307,"text":"那至於這個有關物價的一些情況我們在那個行政院有一個物價穩定小組裡面那已經決議就是說相關的大宗物資的營業稅、關稅還有貨物稅都調降或減免到九月底那這個期間呢"},{"start":3103.796,"end":3117.323,"text":"穩定物價小組也會持續的關注國內物價的一個變動情形那如果有需要的話當然是還可以往後延續對啊你要事前有一些這個必要的措施來杜絕緩緩嘛不然到時候"},{"start":3118.504,"end":3142.089,"text":"你要是整個衝擊擴大那當然對整個國內影響會非常的嚴重來 部長我請教有媒體報導認為如果伊朗封鎖這個荷莫茲海峽限制石油的運輸將促使油價大幅度的上漲更進一步來推高通貨對原本已經受到美國總統川普關稅戰衝擊的國家"},{"start":3145.391,"end":3148.133,"text":"將造成更大的經濟壓力那美國關稅戰的談判有經濟學者認為"},{"start":3152.25,"end":3177.557,"text":"英國關稅大概就落在10%預料是地板至於美國目前對中國大陸課成30%全面性的關稅則是天花板意味著未來各國的關稅談判大概都會在10%到30%裡面來進行那台積電已經赴美投資政府也打算採購阿拉斯加的這個"},{"start":3179.505,"end":3184.166,"text":"那我請問部長目前台美關稅談判到底有沒有什麼進展"},{"start":3204.668,"end":3216.995,"text":"台美關稅談判目前是由副院長領軍還有行政院OTN他們在持續而且密集的相互溝通那這個部分也會爭取國內國家以及產業的一個最大利益"},{"start":3217.574,"end":3246.351,"text":"那目前來說因為雙方的默契並不便於對外說明那在適當時機可以說的時候一定會對外說明什麼都是保密啦反正你這個到最後一翻出來一翻兩遍不要賠了忽了又責兵那個部長查集失菸有賴第一線的同仁積極來查集以維護個人的健康防止逃漏稅捐在今年二月由財政部阮市長來主持召開一一四年度的失劣菸"},{"start":3247.993,"end":3271.432,"text":"煙酒的查緝匯報會議中提到113年在查緝同仁通力合作下一共查獲涉嫌違反煙酒管理法煙類的數量達到1120萬餘包但近日爆出不肖的海巡人員利用人頭來詐領"},{"start":3273.314,"end":3282.053,"text":"查集失焉的獎金讓國人感到非常的失望也對過去查集失焉的績效打了一個大大的問號"},{"start":3283.581,"end":3308.12,"text":"那國人對茶旗失焉的數量也產生質疑那我請問部長113年度失焉茶旗數字是否有被動手腳的可能性你認為有沒有失焉的茶器基本上各個茶器機關都會到茶器現場去先看有沒有違法的情勢然後要清點茶貨的數量並且做成記錄那絕大部分的"},{"start":3308.946,"end":3323.554,"text":"絕大部分的查緝機關以及查緝人員一定是合法合規的在做那極少數的害群之馬那是不應該的那我們這個部分當然不會司法一定會進行調查以及不會寬容"},{"start":3324.394,"end":3326.016,"text":"那在制度面的部分呢我們財政部呢國庫署也會在下個禮拜就會要幾個相關機關再來做精進來防度這樣的一個不應該一個情勢發生但是絕大部分的查緝人員跟查緝機關都是依法依規在做的"},{"start":3341.976,"end":3360.43,"text":"最後一個議題 華務部廉政署為防範政府採購過程中潛藏的這些廉政風險今年辦理高風險政府採購案件全國性專案集合依循行政院及所屬機關使用深層式的AI參考指引"},{"start":3363.512,"end":3392.272,"text":"這個深層式的AI進行跨機關資料庫的大數據分析本席認為值得政府其他機關來學習那針對此次海巡失焉人頭案媒體報導人頭多為無業或低收入戶導致大筆罰款沒有辦法執行因為罰款都是呆帳不斷的增高同一個人的人頭負責重複出現而且"},{"start":3393.032,"end":3417.373,"text":"也不繳罰款 因為他沒有錢怎麼繳那本市希望說未來查集私菸相關單位導入AI大數據分析機制再早期揪出漏洞改善政府部門內部監控的這些機制 打擊不法那請問財政部 法務部 海巡署你們有什麼看法"},{"start":3419.891,"end":3433.158,"text":"委員這個建議也就運用AI來做一個檢查我覺得我們可以在討論的時候把它納入好啦 我希望說你們要積極而且要用科技的方式對 運用大數據跟科技謝謝委員指教 謝謝好 下一位請吳秉立委員資訊 請"},{"start":3445.717,"end":3449.159,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部莊部長來 莊部長委員好部長現在這個菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣待會就跟委員報告 是那當初這個菸的防治法是"},{"start":3472.295,"end":3484.413,"text":"112年3月修正的時候你們有經過試算嗎這個部分他們有各的等一下沒關係請署長幫忙回答好是"},{"start":3489.584,"end":3502.877,"text":"不好意思委員可不可以麻煩 菸捐跟菸稅的比例菸捐跟菸稅的比例以及112年3月菸害防治法修正的時候你們有沒有估算過每一年收到菸捐跟菸稅的這個金額我現在手上"},{"start":3510.205,"end":3538.156,"text":"煙捐我們以113年度煙捐是264.21億這個不是負稅嘛那煙稅的部分呢煙稅是155.88億所以大概捐是稅的一倍嗯 差不多差不多100那如果是這個樣子的話這幾年的陶漏加熱煙的部分漏掉了多少稅"},{"start":3539.321,"end":3550.554,"text":"漏掉了多少捐因為加熱菸現在是還沒有經過衛福部許可所以我們沒有辦法因為這幾年沒有通過使得捐跟稅各少了多少嘛你們的估算"},{"start":3552.469,"end":3578.198,"text":"包括委員因為這個蠻難估算因為根據衛福委的說法其實它這個是有替代效果簡單講它如果沒有加熱菸可抽它會抽其他的菸所以我跟你說啦市面上都在抽加熱菸立法委員你去抓院會旁邊兩黨三黨全部都在吸加熱菸啦我親眼所見我在這邊作證包括民進黨國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":3580.376,"end":3603.093,"text":"抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸啦所以我就是要問你說你們當初有沒有做稅市的評估嘛因為你如果有評估的時候你就會去知道說這個你們原來估計大概是多少後來收到多少相減就是可以評估大概漏掉多少"},{"start":3604.641,"end":3633.146,"text":"跟委員報告因為煙稀食量的減少有的人是會認為是因為煙稅跟煙捐多課了所以它影響了消費所以我們因為現在沒辦法去獨立說煙變少是什麼原因這是我們困難的地方但是我們可以看到是說現在對加熱煙的部分我們也是在等如果它許可的我們這個部分一定會去課徵這樣好 那請回座請衛福部的邱部長"},{"start":3635.925,"end":3636.146,"text":"邱部長"},{"start":3642.985,"end":3671.508,"text":"總部長請回座部長112年3月12號 陰害防治法施行那你當時也是在衛環委員會所以我們透過這個東西是很不容易但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估 這我們當然也贊成可是健康風險評估 請問什麼時候開始送件到現在將近兩年半了"},{"start":3672.449,"end":3688.566,"text":"超過九個季了到現在還沒有任何一家通過健康風險評估沒有通過的原因是因為評估的很嚴格等於是實質上雖然立法院通過了但是你們這個評估委員會再把關然後再限縮還是"},{"start":3690.808,"end":3708.253,"text":"沒有人要送件 還是送件的這些廠商都是阿里不搭包括研究公司 都亂七八糟 九個月通不過到底是什麼原因 可不可以告訴我們好 謝謝委員我想我們在NHK網路日報裡面就是有審查的一個健康風險評估審查辦法"},{"start":3710.133,"end":3725.147,"text":"那其實有七家申請六家什麼時候開始申請這個時程等一下請吳署長跟報告一下那我們一定是因為這涉及人民權益跟公眾健康所以我們依照審查辦法循著審查的程序組成審查會"},{"start":3726.688,"end":3736.819,"text":"秉持科學實證專業及保護公眾健康最高目標其實是很謹慎一程序在辦理那實際上的詳細的比較細的狀況我請過程請吳署長跟委員報告跟委員報告第一家送成的是在當年112年的6月底"},{"start":3750.134,"end":3773.064,"text":"那到現在兩年了都審不過那因為審查的過程中有時候因為委員的要求看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏那會請業者再重新送件那每一屆業者他再重新補正資料的時候那各家都不一樣你能不能公布那個審查的流程的那些細節啊我現在要問的問題是什麼意思你越慢通過"},{"start":3774.656,"end":3798.726,"text":"漏掉更多的稅跟捐啦這兩年多來加熱菸因為你們審查結果都一直遲遲不通過使得國庫應該收到的稅以及應該收到的這個菸捐啊到現在都收不到你們現在用抓私菸用罰款其實跟稅跟捐的比例啊還是不成比例你知道嗎每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢啊那"},{"start":3801.538,"end":3821.395,"text":"這個審查是這樣子啦我要把它定成無比嚴苛那我立法院當初包括部長在的衛黃委員會包括我們本院的院會為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查就可以通過那你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛如果你審查的東西是用這樣的態度那我再問普健"},{"start":3828.157,"end":3836.022,"text":"你們因為這個社會大家對這個責任爭議不休你知道嗎甚至有人認為說這個是煙現在的捲煙業者在中間做梗讓加熱煙不能夠合法上市讓捲煙可以繼續佔有它的市場外面各種揣測陰謀論一大堆"},{"start":3854.687,"end":3872.596,"text":"阿我是覺得這個有賴衛福部你要把你們審查的經過細節還有欠缺什麼東西公佈而不是讓人家還有人用政治陰謀論說因為上層反對啦所以掛一個這個審查在那邊事實上就是不給你過阿"},{"start":3874.332,"end":3892.547,"text":"也有這樣子的政治陰謀論也有從經濟角度說因為捲菸的這個業者希望不要通過所以去施力那不通過他就能夠更長久的佔有市場你知道嗎中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司投資這個加熱菸的設備"},{"start":3895.205,"end":3921.887,"text":"早就都投資進去了錢都花了等著在那個合可之後能夠製造販賣你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減的話那就會助長非法嘛再來第二個問題是現在已經在吸加熱菸的人那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛你每天都宴會外面去尋就好啦我跟你講一抓一大把"},{"start":3923.257,"end":3950.882,"text":"然後在立法院眼看著這麼多的同仁在違法我是不抽菸的啦看著這麼多同仁在違法然後我們那個審查就是九計啦沒個進度你看第一家兩年啦審一個健康風險評估要兩年那七家申請 七家都不過到現在都不過那個請財政部再幫忙說明一下菸酒公司送多少"},{"start":3956.989,"end":3984.425,"text":"菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了應該有超過一年以上了超過一年以上到底多久啊實際的時間因為他們你可不可以同意我我跟你講我現在跟你同意你們審查官民監控署要不要照程序來然後叫你補件你們的菸酒公司補件審查數據是這樣子我問一個問題再過半年不夠菸酒公司董事長下台要不要"},{"start":3987.492,"end":4008.171,"text":"健康風險評估上屆一年多審不完做不出來是因為普建什麼這些資料不齊備那英九公司鮮有疏失嘛我也沒有很嚴苛你回去跟他們其安講再過半年審不過他辭職要不要要不要立這個軍令狀"},{"start":4009.93,"end":4026.355,"text":"我想這個部分他也一直都非常努力的對於我們衛福部相關的意見他們也都在調整那我覺得我們所知是113年2月送件的那113年2月送件到現在一年多啊那中間補件過幾次啊 開過幾次啊你跟他講 他越慢我們中華民國就損失更多的錢啊"},{"start":4035.097,"end":4064.43,"text":"因為第一個 煙酒公司做這個焦熱煙它可以賺錢第二個 合法的管道真的符合了之後這些非法的自然就會減少很多那我們的煙稅 煙捐都可以都收得到這對社會有很多的好處那再加上它是職責所在煙酒公司董事長職責所在再半年不過我會請它下台這樣好不好他已經非常努力在做了事"},{"start":4065.828,"end":4067.755,"text":"你不要跟社會大眾講什麼 一定不會過啊"},{"start":4069.685,"end":4098.383,"text":"你是講一句我非常努力有衛福部來說明說明 請說明一下跟委員報告 Angel公司在113年2月左右送件那中間經過了審查會以後 退了5次的件那最後一次是在今年的4月底退還給財政部他被退了5次件 5次的理由都不一樣嗎還是每一次都找不同的理由你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚叫他一次補嗎"},{"start":4099.344,"end":4118.817,"text":"我們都很明確的告訴他需要準備哪一些案件好 聽到沒有 很明確告訴他所以如果再補不來 再通不過這個研究公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的啦坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐然後損失你研究公司該賺的錢我講的有沒有道理"},{"start":4122.305,"end":4135.674,"text":"回去想想看那你問我希望你們國民健康署這個審查的過程喔細節給人家公佈對社會招公信可以嗎我們選來以後該公佈的一定會公佈而且一定會讓社會明瞭"},{"start":4136.647,"end":4157.228,"text":"什麼理由 要補什麼件 也讓人家知道嘛專家也會知道你要求的補件有沒有道理不是啊 我說對下派大政說明 我們立法委員不知道啊不然你把各公司的補件的理由 通通算入份報告到我們的辦公室來啊算到財政委員會來啊讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊"},{"start":4159.206,"end":4169.291,"text":"好不好主席我要求他們這個官民監督署審查的過程中要求補正的資料跟開會的次數補正的內容送到財政委員會來給每一位委員有一份報告我們會依政府資訊公開法相關的資訊送給財政委員會"},{"start":4176.594,"end":4194.768,"text":"對啦 你就送給本委員會啦好不好可以公開的 可以送的 我們都一定會送所以有一些不能公開不能送的你那些什麼地方 什麼原因不能公開不能送你要住民喔 讓我們能夠了解喔不然我們還不知道你審查為什麼可以審查九計咧從法律通過到現在九計啊這不是三計 不是四計啊"},{"start":4203.458,"end":4220.187,"text":"我們這個非常的注重 所以我們一直瞭解到他整個所以非常嚴苛 手都通不過所以大概我們依法來盡量來公告相關的資訊部長 不要只站在自己的本位啦我為什麼會先問財政部長國家每天在損失錢啊好 謝謝接下來我們請賴昭偉來"},{"start":4238.972,"end":4249.298,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進的有請財政部的莊部長以及海巡署的謝副署長兩位長官早因為媒體揭露了說你這個查緝私冤的祭司獎金"},{"start":4265.114,"end":4294.181,"text":"每一年八千萬幾乎資訊率百分之百全部領光了結果呢 剛才我也有提到啊結果就發現說已經被逮到了彰化那個地方我們的棄屍就是海巡署底下的這個人 然後你跟這個等一下找他的職業走私人頭有勾串把這個錢都領光光這個事情你們現在到底媒體這樣揭露沒看到你們的反應你們到底查得怎麼樣"},{"start":4298.373,"end":4307.759,"text":"有沒有這回事現在是偵查中偵查中已經好幾天了咧3月11號搜索調查開始之後我們依照規定6月11號跟他現在機下還有一位立刻免職"},{"start":4317.557,"end":4339.932,"text":"那另外兩位呢 因為現在偵查中我們會列為年終考劇淘汰的對象所以涉入的有三位是不是有三位 一位羈押 兩位交保那為了你怎麼封門呢 這個東西歷史所在啊各位報告我們現在 我去年就聽一個規定所有在做檢舉筆錄的時候隊長親自在場"},{"start":4342.264,"end":4369.636,"text":"第二個核發獎金依照規定核發獎金下來之後要頒發的時候要由政風人員在現場不僅要保護他的身份而且要確認檢舉的真實性這個記事員你們的官員的你這個獎金不是什麼機密吧不是機密吧我們所有的那個破壞獎金就是那個查緝獎金最多一個人如果沒有有檢舉的人只有3萬5"},{"start":4370.97,"end":4385.417,"text":"沒有檢舉人的話最多也只有7萬7萬很多耶7萬不是只有很多耶我希望這個事情這個很丟臉海巡署很丟臉我覺得要徹底的把它怎麼樣糾正過來不要"},{"start":4390.82,"end":4416.332,"text":"海巡署啊 拼命講預算不夠啊幹什麼這個不夠那個不夠結果一有機會就這樣子這個撈著撈這個把預算整個吃掉很不好啊 副署長報告委員 報告委員那個台中茶具隊最近三年就申請那個工廠喔 食鹽工廠就這一件171萬所以對廟外界講的議員喔我想這樣對辛苦工作的海巡隊員是不公平的"},{"start":4416.752,"end":4429.317,"text":"好得了啦這一件我們對以後的犯罪絕對凌東正要凌犯罪的好啦你請我啦我們就請那個邱部長一起上來好了邱部長邱部長來"},{"start":4435.339,"end":4438.003,"text":"因為美國的對等關稅的關係一到五月份外銷非常暢旺大家提早出貨 售收有沒有增加"},{"start":4453.472,"end":4470.987,"text":"跟委員報告一到五月份這個部分在比較上可能有一些還沒有太大的意義為什麼因為大宗的稅款就是中所稅跟銀所稅那一般是到五月底結算以及繳納那今年因為延到六月底所以今年的一個數額到五月底的數額"},{"start":4471.912,"end":4498.418,"text":"在比較上沒有太大的相同基礎所以要到六月底才會比較明確那個證交稅呢證交稅是比去年的同期是來的少的少多少少大概有兩百少了兩百二十六億比去年同期一到五月少少的百分比呢少的百分比是百分之十九點五那很多耶對 十九點五 對那因為成交量的關係是好 莊部長你請回了謝謝"},{"start":4499.798,"end":4526.495,"text":"我請教這個邱部長剛才大家都一直在罵這個嘉樂園我也罵嘉樂園嘉樂園你看到喔這個年成長率是百分之八九十這個大家就會想說那標準趕快出來一拖二拖三拖四拖使得我們的稅損減少一百億了有人這樣算過好 現在有一頂帽子戴在你頭上"},{"start":4527.435,"end":4531.957,"text":"有媒體這樣講 邱部長你仔細聽喔他說 衛福部卡關駐長嘉樂園的走私這頂帽子好大一頂喔 你要回應一下吧你們卡關 所以走私 拼命走私"},{"start":4545.051,"end":4559.767,"text":"我想報告召委,Ni防治法當然就是我在衛環委員會當立委的時候當然也討論了很久,那裡面特別又要求要審查所以變成有指定N品健康風險評估審查辦法的一個制定那這是兩年前的事情"},{"start":4563.231,"end":4580.009,"text":"那不管有辦法還有審查委員怎麼找那都找好了就一直在審所以它其實它是有標準的不是沒有標準一直有標準只是說等一下請吳司長可以補充就是據我整個去了解它整個過程就是"},{"start":4581.244,"end":4595.649,"text":"審查委員有意見就變成審查會的意見嘛然後就請業者去補就這樣來來回回然後他其實開會開了五十幾次以上最主要的問題是什麼地方告不定"},{"start":4600.977,"end":4629.48,"text":"應該都是風險評估這個部分風險評估 什麼樣的風險評估是這樣子啦 我要求健康署去把所有的會議能公告的健康署的署長還是副署長都能夠盡量給大家知道你跟我講一下 什麼風險 什麼地方的風險知道問題在哪裡有時候其實是有時候其實我據我了解有時候是業者提出來的就沒有符合上一次的要求所以這樣的一個其實我相信他們也省得很痛苦啦"},{"start":4630.24,"end":4641.952,"text":"那這中間其實大家要...好 你們告訴我們一個啦 大家都很關心的 給我們一個時間表可以嗎什麼時候渴望落日 這個法審定什麼時候 今年可不可以 今年底"},{"start":4643.902,"end":4665.719,"text":"我想我們會因為有很多都已經進入到最後的階段所以應該希望業主能夠在最後的不需要到今年底嗎我們越快越好在三個月可以嗎按照他的規定我們當海在行政手續絕對一定是用最快的速度在處理三個月內可以搞定嗎 三個月"},{"start":4668.814,"end":4689.643,"text":"三個月可以搞定嗎我們希望能夠可以嗎 目標三個月搞定可以嗎我們希望能夠另外其實大家對加拿大的擔心是因為裡面可以放大麻的萃取物一堆什麼之類的有獨架什麼之類的你在這裡是不是可以承諾"},{"start":4692.658,"end":4699.343,"text":"衛福部站在保障國人的健康大麻絕對不可老化可以嗎"},{"start":4701.413,"end":4724.375,"text":"大麻到目前為止也是未來也都不會有開放的這種絕對不會齁因為法務部的次長公開承諾大麻絕對不合法法務部也不同意開放嘛所以法務部就不開放大麻大麻在台灣這個地方不可以合法電子煙"},{"start":4727.998,"end":4749.343,"text":"也是不能合法 是不是是的好 這兩個好 第二個問題我想請教這個AIT不僅僅關心我們的什麼急救保啦還關心我們的血袋不夠啊說我們的血袋啊 裝血那個袋子啊那有什麼了不起台灣沒有做 都是靠進口的部長 你在說什麼為什麼"},{"start":4751.583,"end":4771.44,"text":"為什麼這個血袋你自己拿著做啊?你要怎麼做?我想賴昭偉是算醫療中的很了解醫療的委員啦齁我說實在我也不清楚為什麼當時為什麼血袋都不能做?可能因為他透視的技術或者是說做這個是過去怎麼樣目前我們要做的就是血袋我們要國產"},{"start":4781.158,"end":4793.447,"text":"這是在做的方向,是不是我們那個食藥署食藥署來,食藥署署長副署長賴委員報告,目前學貸的部分已經有一家國產業者在上個月底跟我們申請查案登記什麼時候可以開始申請"},{"start":4795.06,"end":4818.948,"text":"我們儘速審查 因為之前我們已經有跟他做過相關的 順利的話順利的話應該下半年就可以拿到許可證就可以開始有產品出來供應國內醫療院所使用這個實在丟臉啦 我們現在等於是台灣雲露要快打上的樣子 然後都是AIT給我們指指點點我們的這個醫療準備 他說我們的這個急難包也是他來給我們講"},{"start":4821.349,"end":4832.976,"text":"請問你,如果打仗,血漿夠不夠?部長,血漿夠不夠?血漿夠不夠?當然,血漿方面我們會不會,如果是全血,就不敢講,血漿我們已經儲備了相當的一個量多長?血漿多少?"},{"start":4846.753,"end":4855.762,"text":"我們把這個事務室了解以後再報給委員會相關的消煙料呢主要打仗用的最常用的當然是止痛藥消煙料這個"},{"start":4859.273,"end":4877.347,"text":"我相信這個我們衛福部有一個韌性的計畫因為這個是有他有一個很重要的韌性的我們醫事室報告一下好不好醫事室下面的人拜託像周偉報告我們對於這個戰略的本來就有準備十萬人份的外傷的相關的藥品這個是過往就已經準備了有沒有規劃地下醫院"},{"start":4890.7,"end":4908.314,"text":"這個部分也跟周委做一個報告事實上這個我們也在準備我們現在的公立醫院如果有新建的這個建築物我們都要求在地下應該要有準備這個醫療的空間所以只要有新蓋的都要要求地下化是不是我們現在的公立醫院我們都有要求"},{"start":4908.894,"end":4935.981,"text":"好 最後一個來部長 大家很關心的題目中融第一劑斷頭3億 第二劑斷頭5億外務部規定每一劑不可以比去年多因為你們為了要那個點數好看北農6月初已經達到了同去年同一劑的100%之後啊 這都是做功德啦"},{"start":4936.966,"end":4955.063,"text":"事實上對醫務人員就是僅薪啊這個事情啊 這個部長啊 你是表面好看 哇 0.9 0.95對賴總統有交代 可是對醫務人員變相都僅薪耶現在總統沒錢 總統就最好的例子 不用也是啊"},{"start":4956.178,"end":4964.383,"text":"只要跟稍微簡單報告 整理要報告一下中榮來講因為他成長的率其實也太快他成長的7.6% 我們已經給他7.6%了已經高過中區6.0%的標準"},{"start":4971.508,"end":4990.983,"text":"那他因為第一屆領到的錢比去年多領了2.5億那我們希望醫學中心真的要落實分級醫療也這樣讓醫學中心的同仁當然薪水不減低之下減輕負擔這個部分都不會影響到相信都不會影響到現在已經有了我剛剛講了北龍現在6月10號就已經達標了"},{"start":4994.884,"end":5022.056,"text":"後蓋作為都給作為不是不是給作為啦有打折啦我們會還有就是特別強調一下剛性需求譬如說你看重症你看急症這個我們都健保都會補給他所以秉作道才是正道啊有沒有考慮我們要爭取把碳費做補充保費可不可以你要不要這樣主張我想這個都大家一直在研議當中保費真假你想辦法去拿錢啊"},{"start":5024.993,"end":5047.28,"text":"謝謝委員一直把我們健保的資源能夠增加你在這個時空要漲保費不容易啦去漲碳費可以啦我們會多元化而且委員也知道這個政府在公務預算的預支真的也不少啦所以今年是有史以來最高的啦其他你就用書面來給賴召委好不好好的沒問題沒問題好謝謝召委謝謝委員"},{"start":5059.912,"end":5063.174,"text":"下一位 下一位請國共委員 資訊卿謝謝主席 有請兩位部長 莊部長跟邱部長莊部長跟邱部長請"},{"start":5085.333,"end":5088.174,"text":"莊部長我先讓你看一下照片這張照片是放在海關裡頭滿坑滿谷的這一個加熱菸你自己有沒有去看過總共在海關沒收的這一個加熱菸總共有34萬條之多依照5月的統計已經有442萬.54萬包了"},{"start":5108.62,"end":5130.531,"text":"這滿山滿谷的情況底下還有一部分是已經交給地方政府喔有14萬喔放在海關裡頭是20萬喔過期的也銷毀了11萬條喔你看看這麼多的情況底下結果呢事情已經變成是財政部的事情了剛剛有委員說啊如果半年內沒有通過的話菸酒公司的董事長要下台"},{"start":5130.831,"end":5156.092,"text":"但是沒有讓他通過的是你右邊那一位啊是你左邊那一位邱部長啊這個衛福部可以主導這個菸酒公司董事長下台這真是笑話啊另外一個部分這還有什麼後遺症連日本啊都質疑台灣的法規啊會阻礙日客來台啊就因為江若驗的審查延期因為三月份的時候衛福部還說連持有都要罰"},{"start":5157.582,"end":5172.976,"text":"就像毒品一樣那到底家庭合不合法你是誘人犯罪嗎政府誘人犯罪嗎違反信賴保護原則嗎基本的法律素養會沒有嗎還是怠惰審查全部都卡在衛福部我們心頭非常清楚"},{"start":5174.178,"end":5188.689,"text":"部長你也應該希望多一點稅收的來源吧剛剛賴昭偉就說稅差損就差了100億嘛長照3.0需不需要稅收的來源需不需要邱部長有需要嗎"},{"start":5191.565,"end":5219.383,"text":"3.0欸一個月過去一個月補助一萬接下來一個月要補助一萬五所需要的稅金來源要更多結果你這個稅差損就差了一百億部長我們的這個審查標準有其他的比其他的國家還原嗎還是因為人為的因素上一屆的委員剛卸任的這屆委員對外就放出風聲在這一屆裡頭不可能通過而通過了這一屆的委員當中呢到現在還沒有開會審查"},{"start":5221.084,"end":5238.494,"text":"如果說衛福部有這麼大的意見,當初院版就不應該提出,就不應該讓他通過不是嗎?院版裡面當然就是有設立,就是說三讀的時候當然那個法案就有審查的辦法那這個辦法裡面也列出了標準"},{"start":5242.129,"end":5262.65,"text":"任期那個時候也聘請了委員 但任期是兩年嘛那現在到期了 我們現在也換了新的委員兩年 年齡限都沒有通過審查標準有別人家演嗎你就比較其他國家就好了嘛你不要制定一個自己的標準嘛很多國家都已經合法化 那個要要去抄也很容易抄好不好有需要搞成這麼久嗎"},{"start":5266.101,"end":5294.896,"text":"跟委員報告目前全球只有兩個國家在審查一個是美國一個是台灣其他的國家是沒有審查直接合併就可以上市對一般的那沒有審查也會有一個標準嘛那我們標準為什麼這麼嚴我們審查為什麼這麼嚴我們為什麼拖了兩年多為什麼十家沒有一個通過開了五十幾次會都沒有通過為什麼我們就是依據美國FDA的一個上市前審查的一個標準來做相關的審查作業所以說我們的標準是依照美國是"},{"start":5295.416,"end":5310.886,"text":"完全一樣口味都相同幾乎都相同幾乎都相同那我們拿回來的這些加熱煙有沒有美國煙目前在美國也還沒有上市那目前這些煙是從哪邊來他們在全球有各地方不同的"},{"start":5313.815,"end":5335.203,"text":"不同的國家那我們既然已經合法化了我們難道不能一定要比照美國的標準是不是你現在意思是這樣嗎我們按照那個規定跟流程還有相關業者需要準備的相關的一些資料來做審查這業者會不清楚嗎業者都清楚我們也說過很多次的說明會如果是標準的問題那你就把標準公布出來嘛"},{"start":5337.205,"end":5365.248,"text":"那你就把標準給我們委員會到底問題出在哪裡到底是行政怠惰還是標準過嚴還是業者不從我們把這整個過程只要依法能夠公告的我們一定來報告委員會剛剛那個委員趕快啦那五十幾次會議會議紀錄給我們啊讓我們清楚知道到底什麼原因嘛可以嗎好的我們會把那個依法可以公告送給大家應該解決問題部長你還是要解決啦拖了不是辦法啦你看海關放了三十四萬條在這邊啊"},{"start":5368.291,"end":5380.024,"text":"對其如山啦其實工作同仁都是依法在辦依法依規定可以搞了兩年多好 接下來我問一下那個莊部長莊部長我讓你看一下數字"},{"start":5386.19,"end":5405.558,"text":"這個中國啤酒的問題經濟部在4月28號的時候就已經對中國啤酒的這個傾銷造成台灣產業已經造成傷害了根據最新的統計中國啤酒的市佔率在今年的第一季已經來到36%你知道台啤目前的市佔率有多少嗎"},{"start":5406.869,"end":5432.679,"text":"那我知道台啤的市占率現在在下降當中那原來都是超過五成以上的現在也在下降對 目前一直下降當中已經下降到四成點九一啦跟中國進來的36相差不遠啦比較於去年啊這一個還當了6%已經接近死亡交叉了恐怕在一年之內啊就會被中國啤酒給超越了"},{"start":5433.839,"end":5439.644,"text":"在這種情況底下我們現在要可能會祭出臨時反請銷稅嘛對不對要70天之內對不對對 是的我們這個部分因為經濟部已經在剛剛如同委員說在4月30完成初步的產業損害調查那麼70天以內我們要完成所謂的請銷初步調查而且我們還會送關稅稅率審議委員會小組所以最晚我們在7月9號之前就會去公告"},{"start":5463.343,"end":5466.187,"text":"公告初步的一個調查結果7月9號之前會公布是否會在課徵臨時稅臨時課徵反省銷稅是的7月9號之前臨時反省銷稅7月9號之前它裡頭有一個條款說有必要的時候延後30天應該不會延後了吧"},{"start":5482.505,"end":5494.511,"text":"這個部分我們的關務署一直非常積極而且積極的在進行當中然後會所以不會延後一起做一起依照這個期限來做不會再延後不會再延後好不會再延後70天內7月9號好那你知道喔"},{"start":5498.293,"end":5520.407,"text":"現階段他們在這個比較於去年五月多進來59% 接近六成那為什麼會多進來呢你去看右邊這一張表格價格調漲通知 請提前囤貨看到沒有雪山 百威 Corona Bar 等等而且是從七月一號開始他們要全面調漲價格請把握補貨機會搶購現價庫存看到沒有 這叫囤貨"},{"start":5529.074,"end":5555.016,"text":"進口越多 囤貨越多對台灣的這個啤酒產業者傷害越大我就要問啊這個科增這個依照平衡稅及反請銷稅科增實施辦法第25條之一第二項第二款科增臨時反請銷稅可以追溯既往至90天前這樣的行為你認為是不是應該追溯 部長"},{"start":5555.683,"end":5577.183,"text":"有這樣的規定 那可以由業者來提出申請業者又要申訴一次 你才決定要不要柯真這很明顯是囤貨的行為啊這很明顯啊 就是在對抗你的反傾銷的行為啊你還要問業者 你主管機關沒有判斷能力嗎"},{"start":5578.882,"end":5583.183,"text":"我們回溯課程法律上是有規定要件我們是從展開調查的前三個月跟後三個月來比較有沒有因為我們展開調查大量的囤積"},{"start":5601.067,"end":5604.571,"text":"數字上會說話數字我們會再調查很明顯啊是 那也跟委員報告抓到啦基本上他要申請要課環境交稅的時候同時要跟我們申請說他要不要臨時課徵那你覺得這有沒有明顯這個行為有明顯 你自己看嘛"},{"start":5619.21,"end":5630.989,"text":"從委員的這個圖表數字來看我們要看他展開調查之前三個月跟後三個月的基期的一個變化這我們回去會看數據你們好好調查一下 如果必要時應該追溯對不對 署長"},{"start":5635.341,"end":5650.09,"text":"我們還是要看他是不是符合要件我們還是要看他有沒有符合回溯要件來 部長我再跟你講一個那個假嘴有慣犯真的是慣不怕今天就談菸酒的問題你看有一個零性慣犯"},{"start":5651.01,"end":5675.416,"text":"他在2016的時候施設地下這一個工廠製造假酒被判刑五年還是因為火災喔從2022到2027結果呢緩刑時間還沒到2021呢又賣假酒因為組織犯罪才被判刑兩年今年 今年又因為犯罪集團的顧問繼續賣假酒又被抓到了總共三次"},{"start":5678.036,"end":5698.165,"text":"違反了什麼 違反了這個組織犯罪法 它是因為組織犯罪而被犯罪的喔還有包括這個商標法喔 還有其他的文書罪喔 那我就要問啊這個是不是啦 我們的菸酒管理法當中呢 太弱 或者是我們食品安全衛生法"},{"start":5698.965,"end":5722.471,"text":"管理法太鬆兩位部長兩位部長這個假酒會害死人啊連酒瓶一瓶 連酒瓶喔都可以賣錢還到處收購因為它被扣留了兩萬瓶空瓶子兩位部長你們是沒有在喝酒啦我相信你們身體都非常的健康啦但是問題呢 國人也要健康啦"},{"start":5723.817,"end":5734.069,"text":"怎麼處理屢犯屢抓再屢犯兩位部長 莊部長要先回答還是邱部長先回答"},{"start":5740.052,"end":5752.799,"text":"我想這個部分應該是很不應該有這樣的情況那因為酒不算食品啦不算食品但是財務財政部在做所以說跟你都沒有關係那財政部來回答來財政部要怎麼處理"},{"start":5756.256,"end":5767.381,"text":"我想這個部分對國民的健康非常重要但是因為現在的菸酒管理法裡面原來對於就是說有刑罰但這個部分早我已經站起來了我做現場的要求那個法該檢討的檢討一個月給本席一份報告"},{"start":5771.483,"end":5781.052,"text":"是不是要專案欺查齁你也是做一個考量啦衡量一下也給本席一個報告好不好專案普遍的現象是不可以啦好不好OK 謝謝"},{"start":5795.595,"end":5808.481,"text":"主席 在場委員 先列席政務機關長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士 先生我們先請邱部長和石耀署的王滬署長那待會我們就請海巡署的謝滬署長以及我們財政部的莊部長和國庫署的胡瑞署的王滬署長國員好"},{"start":5817.554,"end":5846.445,"text":"部長,剛剛我覺得賴委員賴昭偉的質詢非常精彩COVID-19之前台灣有辦法製造目前的這種口罩嗎?有沒有能力?有沒有在做?COVID-19之前有嗎?世界主要的口罩跟誰買的?世界上主要的這種COVID-19防護口罩當時都是跟中國買的啦後來台灣趕快的進口那樣的一個表面噴劑我們才有辦法自製嘛,對不對?血袋是不是一個比較低階的產品?"},{"start":5848.308,"end":5874.585,"text":"全世界大概集中在哪幾家工廠生產 你知道嗎副組長跟他講一下 副長剛剛委員報告全世界主要是日本 美國跟歐洲有在生產是的所以整個全球化經濟的結果大概這些醫材如果不是很通用性的醫材有些就是少數的國家 少數的工廠在製造但是剛剛委員召委的諮詢前台灣要有備戰的準備包括我們的"},{"start":5875.868,"end":5886.162,"text":"部立院的地下室要做緊急的傷患修製包括我們這些會需要用到的醫材要趕快自主籌措 自主證到能力部長能不能做到"},{"start":5888.043,"end":5912.215,"text":"剛剛醫事室也有報告齁在我們準備的藥材、醫材都有準備十萬人份的一個急救那另外當我們準備這個時候呢你要想到什麼?去化因為啊這些東西都有保存期限的所以你解決你的緊急存量之後你要思考到定期的推陳出新的去化當然這是一定只是管理藥品一定要的事我們給你一個報告給你一個書面報告好那我們先問謝副組長謝副組長"},{"start":5917.747,"end":5936.558,"text":"請問 目前我們看一下 為什麼金門海域走私日漸長久 我們看到新聞啊遊艇喔 金門的遊艇會到中國海域走私喔把台灣的一些東西 在非法運送電子產品運到中國去啊還有什麼 澳洲的龍蝦怎麼到中國的是透過金門馬祖從台灣這邊把龍蝦進到中國去啊"},{"start":5940.8,"end":5967.213,"text":"包括這些顯卡科技產品這些包括無人機的晶片都用漁船搬貨副組長你們有沒有抓到過我們抓到非常多非常多嗎是所以這是一個嚴重的問題我們往下看接下來我們看到這兩天這個是密集的報導灰色海域變成了中國大中國的走私產地越容易來我們看看越靠近中國越容易"},{"start":5967.913,"end":5990.466,"text":"基本上是台灣的漁民跟中國下單,他們在福建養成成背,綁成浮球在海上丟包,馬祖的漁民領獲,在馬祖海域綻放,然後變成台灣的牡蠣,有沒有這樣的情況?馬祖沒有超過列案,有嘛,馬祖本來的產量是148公噸,2023年,結果去年馬祖向往台灣的牡蠣多少?1500噸啊,你們不覺得可疑嗎?"},{"start":5993.991,"end":6011.854,"text":"有沒有跟農業部去查一下到底馬達族哪些人在雅牡蠣這不僅跟地方漁業主管機關也跟中央主管機關我們都協調過我們在查計畫全力以赴另外呢我們希望從源頭管理包括產銷履歷等等是的那產銷履歷那就是農業部的事金馬的海域"},{"start":6013.537,"end":6024.356,"text":"兩邊共同去管理的海域就成為兩邊走私的一個漏洞我們想要看現在我們看到今夏海域有一個違規的磕棚是不是是現在金門縣政府有辦法去拆嗎"},{"start":6026.514,"end":6045.665,"text":"這個是非法漁業行為我們建議金門縣政府要依照漁業法聽到沒有 你們建議金門縣政府海巡組可以去執行嗎 不是嘛拆客架不是你們的事情嗎我們負責漁業界入船好 你們負責漁業界的入船包括說拆除的話 有安全顧慮的話我們全程戒護 都沒有問題所以現在執法的困難在哪裡"},{"start":6046.805,"end":6059.773,"text":"跟委員報告這個距離剛好它核損的地方各2公頃96跟100年各2公頃只有4公頃剛好在我們檳榔嶼就是在淨線水域線上就在旁邊距離廈門一點西鄉是不是影響到我們的國安是"},{"start":6063.53,"end":6087.936,"text":"那淨線水域如果模糊是不是走資越容易所以我們強制執法 嚴正執法但是你執法還要法是怎麼定我們來看一下現在有在野黨立委主張兩岸協商金馬的淨制水域要內海化怎麼說前項限制或禁止水域由海洋委員公告之但是他是這樣他把淡化組言到說這些地方"},{"start":6089.605,"end":6106.733,"text":"要跟陸方透過協商定出陸方承認的我國司法行政有效水準是這樣嗎你覺得可以接受嗎我們不同意因為這個案子涉及到國家安全國防策略還有區域的區域的發展那這部分不是單單執法而已是"},{"start":6107.153,"end":6124.509,"text":"是 所以我們看到在野黨的他的關係文化立法理由說1949年以來的內戰狀態其實我們解決洞刊之後就沒有什麼內戰的問題了這個法治觀念根本不懂好 我們來看一下兩岸協商禁制水域會擴大還是縮小目前的做法是國防部公告禁制水域 海軍組執法 對不對是"},{"start":6126.05,"end":6145.866,"text":"如果未來照在野黨的法案通過的話,兩岸協商禁限制水域,然後要有陸委會公告海巡組執法。你覺得目前這個點,是目前在我們現有的禁限制水域後,我們海警,對岸的海警船入侵的軌跡點,至少目前還維持著他們不敢越線。"},{"start":6146.673,"end":6162.478,"text":"如果未來禁限制水域縮小的話或對方不跟你結帳的話你覺得會面臨到什麼樣的情況?這個涉及到國家主權的問題這不是可以協商陸方可以得來的所以我們堅持這是我們國家主權區的展現所以我們看到了"},{"start":6162.958,"end":6192.358,"text":"如果說在現在我們有法律的授權之下我們海巡署還可以維持這樣的海域我們國家的主權如果這個上面的法律更動了海巡署恐怕沒有辦法執法了我們更很難去打擊兩岸的走私是不是是好那我現在再問接下來請財政部長準備來我們看一下反海上走私海巡準備好了嗎有沒有看過這樣的一個國外媒體報導用科技的無人船來協助我們做這些海域有高風險海域的這個巡邏"},{"start":6193.498,"end":6198.3,"text":"我們不僅在特別特別條例草案我們爭取兩百六十億的經費我們在公共建設也同樣的我們也爭取經費那麼以後不僅是要強化岸海健身設備航外線也包括立體徵收無人機"},{"start":6221.047,"end":6243.362,"text":"還有水面的無人載具所以結論兩個請您承諾請海軍委員運用無人載具強化我國禁限制水域的執法方案可以嗎是包括海底電纜全體等等還有對於金馬海水域走私猖獗的情況我們應該用無人載具去反制可以嗎是我都略不考量是謝謝好來我們接下來那個請我們財政部"},{"start":6253.477,"end":6266.183,"text":"這些新聞事件啊告訴我們一個社會現象很多年輕的家長你看很看到的虐嬰對不對幼兒園的性侵補習班不減反增這說明了什麼"},{"start":6267.458,"end":6280.557,"text":"所以目前我們現在的家長在養育子女的過程當中從三歲之前的托嬰到三到六歲的幼兒照顧到六到十二歲這些課後的照顧是不是都是我們現在家長越來越依賴"},{"start":6282.67,"end":6304.895,"text":"對於雙新家庭來說,這個孩童怎麼樣有一個安全的一個地區所以政府有沒有義務責任要來推動,協助家長減輕他們負擔是的,對,那我們其實這幾年來也都做了蠻多的相關的措施為什麼我是問你,不是問邱部長,因為這個議題邱部長很熟悉,但是莊部長你要了解,苦民所苦往下看"},{"start":6305.834,"end":6321.486,"text":"所以當我們看到勞動部已經在昨天在修改原意彈性的月薪假讓企業可以臨時排班也防止企業拒絕家長他能夠照顧嬰幼兒而我們目前財政部我們的學齡前的特別扣除額擴大到6歲對不對"},{"start":6323.567,"end":6340.628,"text":"這最近財政部做的嘛是不是那是不是說六歲以下的第一名15萬第二名再加50%是不是對第二名第三名都是但是我們說到了未來幼托和子女育兒的對子女的要求不是只有三歲之前對不對"},{"start":6342.423,"end":6363.906,"text":"也不是只有六歲之前對不對當然孩子是很成長的過程現在我們看到市場的趨勢這些課後的安親班如雨後春筍的取代了過去我們考高中大學的聯考補習班說明了一件事情12歲以下的學齡兒童成為我們目前年輕父母他最大的負擔你同意嗎"},{"start":6364.97,"end":6378.05,"text":"是確實育兒的經費是比較好那政府如何怎麼分攤照顧6到12歲的呢邱部長他想講不用了我們都做很多政府呢就是我們學年兒童國家跟你分攤一起照顧財政部可以做什麼莊部長"},{"start":6379.224,"end":6407.194,"text":"我想財政部的地方當然就是除了稅負的部分之外不是除了稅負的部分就是稅負的部分來清理真的這部分還有我們的那個國有財產的相關的提供都有各種優惠的措施國有財產的土地要來釋出這是一個啦但是要知道目前年輕家長他托育的需求大概都跟我們的國有地不是那麼接近所以最好做的最容易做的就是特別扩足額特別扩足額可不可以擴張到12歲"},{"start":6409.775,"end":6438.12,"text":"委員這個建議我們要做一個評估是做一個評估來現在對不起本來想讓邱部長休息一下邱部長你們是不是有呼籲家有未滿12歲的兒童要做到一步二要不要讓孩子獨處抽空陪孩子每天抱抱孩子有沒有這是很重要的事情那我們財政部我們沒有辦法幫家長陪孩子沒辦法抱抱孩子但是我們財政部是可以做到讓家長"},{"start":6439.451,"end":6462.232,"text":"避免孩子獨處送到6到12歲送到客戶安親班的時候他這樣的費用可不可以國家幫他減負擔莊部長我想這個部分相關的一些經費以及用什麼樣的方式支出都需要審慎的評估是的財政部左手右手啦你左手收稅右手交給衛福部擴大我們的客戶照顧擴大我們的"},{"start":6463.527,"end":6480.247,"text":"托育的費用對不對所以邱部長你現在放在托育政府照顧協助這樣托育的錢是不是財政部去籌來的是是嗎那如果要你不斷的擴大你的照顧範圍另外一方是財政部給你租稅優惠讓我們家有12歲以下看最後一頁"},{"start":6481.331,"end":6507.563,"text":"是不是研議將幼兒的學前特別扣除額擴大為兒童特別扣除額不是幼兒扣除額適用年齡擴大到12歲以下並提交評估報告可不可以提交評估報告喔 要隨時評估喔是是多久以前可以 多久之內可以我想至少兩個月吧給我們兩個月的時間兩個月的時間 看看明年報索得稅會來得及好不好兩位部長支持這個計畫吧 支持這個方案吧邱部長 支持不支持"},{"start":6508.624,"end":6519.456,"text":"站在兒童照顧的立場我們當然是很好的謝謝 莊部長聽到邱部長的話沒有你不幫忙減這個稅你要多付錢給他 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝莊委員的執行 下一位請賴會員召回執行 請"},{"start":6533.468,"end":6549.66,"text":"謝謝主席 先請財政部部長財政部村部長官務署官務署的彭署長還有國民健康署國健署的護署長我也好署長 署長 護署長部長早安我想 這個部長你們家有沒有人抽菸"},{"start":6559.813,"end":6580.746,"text":"家有人抽煙抽電子煙還是抽紙煙紙煙紙煙齁那你想想看這個電子煙已經這麼普及了可是我們一直都沒有辦法那個主席暫停一下齁那個我的電腦跳不過去主席暫停一下出來"},{"start":6594.221,"end":6595.667,"text":"是我們的壞掉還是他們壞掉"},{"start":6615.956,"end":6637.841,"text":"主席我們繼續啦我想部長在這裡我要特別請教你一下就是說當你們家你的四周圍有這樣的一個抽菸的一個人口的時候那我們事實上有很大的一個困境因為我們抽水抽不到這個電子菸還是加熱菸"},{"start":6639.481,"end":6641.764,"text":"這個2023年通過的2023年通過的1月12號通過 已經是790天了那所有這個"},{"start":6649.864,"end":6674.827,"text":"就是我們的菸的一個稅戶跟那個健康福利間我們在這裡面臨到這樣的一個困境那部長 你有沒有什麼樣的一個看法竟然就是說我們之前的幾位委員一直遲遲的在質疑就是說我們的台酒公司送了五次送了五次的一個資料然後這五次全部都被退回是什麼樣的一個原因呢"},{"start":6676.947,"end":6700.741,"text":"我們那個菸酒公司他確實有送件去申請跟衛護部申請所謂的要製加熱菸不過因為被退五次那相關的細節內容可能是我們國健署比較清楚國健署署長來你來說明為什麼台酒會被退了五次我不管另外那六家公司我就管台酒公司為什麼被你退了五次"},{"start":6702.101,"end":6719.637,"text":"他寫的很差嗎?他的計畫寫的很差嗎?我們審查的最大的風險評估的標準那其實就是說所有的指定制菸品它的風險不得高於國內指驗的一個比較如果足以證明這樣子的方式所以台酒公司送出去"},{"start":6721.819,"end":6740.149,"text":"台酒公司送出去的所有的資料都不合乎你們的標準不是說所有 至少說他已經那持續啊 你持續給他退了五次啊那當然 因為他沒有辦法說服大家認同這個部分沒有辦法說服 我覺得你已經不知道社會的問題存在哪裡"},{"start":6741.576,"end":6764.067,"text":"上一屆我在衛環委員會 電子菸是我當召委的時候通過的結果2023年3月22號要去執行它 到現在完全沒有辦法執行為什麼我不請衛福部部長上來因為衛福部部長當初也是我們衛福部的委員其實我都認了幾次都會"},{"start":6766.483,"end":6779.491,"text":"為什麼這些問題存在哪裡我相信所有的人在現場所有的人大家都搞不清楚只有你最清楚只有你最清楚問題出在哪裡為什麼讓這個這麼簡單的一個問題然後這個社會的一個對立面這麼大為什麼不要去處理呢"},{"start":6788.925,"end":6813.502,"text":"你說你的委屈在哪裡 說給我們聽聽看我想這不是委屈 該行政來的時候 該有行政來的時候我們必須依法保障民眾最大的立法院那所以你能力很差 經過790天了你沒有辦法去執行它 為什麼審查的過程中一直都是要最完備最完整的情況下以民眾的健康而為之那最完備完整 三讀通過了當初在立法院的一個送案就是不夠完備"},{"start":6815.257,"end":6841.58,"text":"是不是這樣子 我可以這樣講咧不是這樣說 因為售錢給我們做這樣的審查就要證證審查委員對於相關的風險評估的一個審查我非常謝謝賴思寶召委今天排這個案子啊我跟你說齁 這個對我們執政黨的委員來講我們是很委屈啊 我們不知道怎麼樣去要求國建署啊"},{"start":6842.923,"end":6864.458,"text":"國監署每一次在質詢的過程當中你同樣都是回答相同的問題你看連我們的台酒公司在上一屆換了就是跟這一屆是不同的一個董事長我們竟然要賭上這個台酒公司在半年如果沒有辦法通過的話執政黨的委員要他辭職這個有道理嗎"},{"start":6871.804,"end":6876.47,"text":"當然是沒有道理啊 大家不好意思賣力啊是你的問題啊不是嗎我覺得這個讓我們很困境欸怎麼辦"},{"start":6885.546,"end":6901.34,"text":"我想我們都會全力來協助吳相關的那也要依歸來辦理三個業內喔三個業內你可以提出我想我們會做最後的一個審查確認那也希望業者能夠把相關完整的資訊給我們最後的一個確認的審查要多久來 部長你回答"},{"start":6908.955,"end":6920.825,"text":"第一個我想整個我希望健康署我們要求他把開會比如說委員為什麼投票不會通過他的理由以及缺乏的"},{"start":6922.089,"end":6945.719,"text":"資料到底在哪裡,一次一次說清楚一次一次說清楚,不長三個月內我覺得不能說,不能讓社會不瞭解你看嘛,你完全扣不到稅,然後你還要花到那麼多的一個社會的一個成本,那去抓他我想我們應該清楚的來瞭解這個過程,才讓全民知道說為什麼要這麼,走得這麼"},{"start":6948.481,"end":6971.972,"text":"走得這麼辛苦是不是要到790天到現在大家還這麼嚴肅的再來討論這些問題是你的審查卡關還是你其他的一個問題部長我們應該去面對這些問題我們不能把那個稽查的成本積高不下你讓這一些這一些其他的一個部會的這個社會成本是這麼高的沒道理啊"},{"start":6972.312,"end":6986.617,"text":"好 我們會站在人民健康以及它規法的規定之下那個絕對是馬不停蹄來處理你的馬不停蹄要多久 三個月可以嗎我們很期盼三個月能夠"},{"start":6987.83,"end":6993.977,"text":"不要期盼我們用確定的因為這個是委員會啦所以委員也必須要拜託拜託業者能夠提供我們也希望業者真的是如果針對審查會提出的意見能夠"},{"start":7003.809,"end":7025.556,"text":"符合就好像我們在科技上,科什麼的,我們就把它補好就好嘛你已經準備兩年,題目都給你們啊我是站在比較一個公營的立場來看,其實行政單位也是努力那專家學者你不得,因為當時兩年前就請這些專家學者"},{"start":7026.076,"end":7050.284,"text":"他們有他們的各種堅持或者是專業這個我們也尊重這樣的一個模式我們必須要去做修正當然已經很多的這個社會的聲音還有很多的委員在這裡提出了這麼多不同面向的一個問題你應該要去正視如果你再繼續不正視的話下一次我就再談完全了解我們非常正視"},{"start":7052.705,"end":7057.067,"text":"謝謝部長我們那個彭署長署長來 請彭署長彭署長官務署的彭署長委員好彭署長我們就是這整個官務署有幾個這個幾個官下面有四個官區有四個官區哪一個官區它的規模是最大的"},{"start":7082.439,"end":7102.367,"text":"以人數來說是台北關一千兩百多人那我請教你現在台北關他所有在倉庫裡頭存放的那個寄放的物品最多的是哪一樣的一個物品目前加熱菸有二十萬條是比較多加熱菸有二十萬條那啤酒啤酒中國進口的啤酒多不多"},{"start":7110.766,"end":7121.862,"text":"啤酒扣押的應該不算多中國進口的啤酒多不多他洗禪地的多不多好那我再請問你太陽能板多不多"},{"start":7124.088,"end":7140.847,"text":"都有那所以就是從加熱菸到這個那個中國啤酒到那個太陽能板跟委員報告扣押的沒有中國大陸的啤酒禮拜三我們到你的台北關來考察"},{"start":7141.388,"end":7164.711,"text":"好 我們真正的去看到了 到底就是我們整個關務署台北關存在的一個情況你到底是換了多少這個中國啤酒 換了多少太陽能板換了多少加熱菸 可以嗎老闆 委員 那個現在台應該是到基隆關因為那個中國大陸的啤酒是從基隆關好 那就去基隆關跟台北關 兩個關都看"},{"start":7167.872,"end":7190.161,"text":"兩個關都看 好不好 趕快回去準備幹什麼準備就怎麼準備有沒有問題沒有問題 謝謝財政部部長我想今天本來要跟你討論一些那個煙間的一個用途當然我們知道就是說長期以來這個煙間的用途跟那個煙稅的那個"},{"start":7192.102,"end":7207.966,"text":"用途其實是有差異性的那倒是特別要在這裡就是說煙尖是不是夠那每一個人抽煙的人口其實一直在減少那當然我們知道煙尖是不夠的這個是來補助健保健保的一個他在一個總額總額的預算裡頭不足的地方那所以就是說沒有關係這個我們在私下就是說煙尖那個撥保健保的一個"},{"start":7220.489,"end":7243.534,"text":"強化健保的一個制度我們私下再跟你要一些資料你再提供給我們我們當然也看到國健署在今年也面臨到一個困境它已經開始去動用爭取公務的預算31億我們希望抽菸的人口變少我們也希望就是說"},{"start":7244.814,"end":7255.403,"text":"這些抽菸的人口要共同的負擔我們國人的一個健康那在這裡是本席今天所做的一個質詢的內容 謝謝好 謝謝蔣委員我們提供資料 謝謝好 那麼向委員報告我們質詢到陳育成委員之後才休息喔我們現在請李坤勝委員繼續質詢"},{"start":7269.654,"end":7293.854,"text":"還有藉這個機會我要公開的要肯定我們的邱部長兩次在這個委員會他不是我們委員會的但是他都親自到我們本委員會我們是可以來肯定我們的邱部長我們希望邱部長都可以親自到了我們希望財務會的"},{"start":7297.897,"end":7300.6,"text":"謝謝主席請財政部莊部長 衛福部邱部長兩位部長請"},{"start":7318.051,"end":7334.801,"text":"兩位部長好 這個卓院長有宣示長照3.0明年要上路那我們看一下 按照衛福部的估算 今年長照支出是343億 明年增加到469億按照長照法的規定 我們的長照支出來自遺產稅 菸稅跟菸捐"},{"start":7337.583,"end":7360.729,"text":"那可是我們看一下啦我們先看一下這個長照基金長照基金呢今年前五個月呢一株長照基金呢四大主要稅收呢來自房地合一稅、菸稅、遺產稅跟證語稅那其實呢都減少了我們看一下房地合一稅呢這個前五個月呢是撥入了140億但是呢跟去年同期減少了44億年減24%然後呢菸稅菸稅也減少了"},{"start":7368.371,"end":7381.497,"text":"這個雖然預租107億但是年減1.7%這個是長照基金 房地合約稅跟菸稅這個剝落金額都有減少好 那我們再看一下下一張表"},{"start":7383.196,"end":7396.18,"text":"這個走失嚴重那也造成這個我們長照的財源短少我們從比較110年到113年110年的煙捐跟煙稅有780億然後到113年只剩下684億然後這3年下來短少了97億那請教一下莊部長好了這個煙捐跟煙稅少了97億是好事還是壞事"},{"start":7414.245,"end":7436.014,"text":"有兩種來看,第一個就是說如果吸菸人口減少的話,那當然就是減少那如果是因為非法,就是所謂的私菸,私菸情況沒有能夠查緝到的話以至於這樣的一個稅或捐沒有能夠課徵到的話,那就是不是好事那部長你認為是哪一種可能性比較大?我們的吸菸率有下降嗎?"},{"start":7437.474,"end":7457.805,"text":"我想這個部分都有,因為現在大家對健康意識也比較強那當然我覺得在相關的一些健康的宣導上也一直都努力在做那你認為走私嚴不嚴重?走私的部分呢,不管是我們海關也好,還有這個地方政府也好,都加強的查緝"},{"start":7459.586,"end":7469.73,"text":"對 那我按照你們的資料啦這個113年你們查獲的這個菸品件數有1120萬包市價7億然後112年呢 查獲了這個1747萬包市價8.59億可見走私是非常嚴重的好 那再請教一下這個我們邱部長好了那走私"},{"start":7489.249,"end":7513.165,"text":"加熱菸很嚴重 按照財政部給的資料113年違法加熱菸比116年相比增加了130萬包然後到本年5月 查獲的違法加熱菸與去年同期相比又增加了47萬包 接近48萬包"},{"start":7514.306,"end":7529.117,"text":"然後呢 加熱菸走勢這麼嚴重呢有一個很大原因 我想剛剛很多委員都提到了是不是我們現在對於這個加熱菸的健康風險評估的審查一直遲遲沒有結果這個是不是造成一個很大的原因"},{"start":7531.547,"end":7560.603,"text":"好 我想報告委員我想這個是有相關有相關對 部長你有認為有相關好 那這個為什麼我看一下你們資料啦現在是有有六家進入健康風險評估的十次審查是不是六家有六家進入十次審查那我看它後面都是進度不一樣進度有點不一樣對 進度不一樣我看後面都是打三角形打三角形就是審查中嘛"},{"start":7561.65,"end":7581.85,"text":"那請問一下這個打三角形的審查大概是審查多久了這個最長是審查多久了目前最長的審查就是第一家比較完整的審查他是從112年的6月底送進來的就等於是7月的時候送到112年那今年是114年"},{"start":7583.652,"end":7606.74,"text":"那所以你們審查這個沒有Date Line嗎?就可以無限期審查下去嗎?我們原則上是希望6個月加6個月但是會扣除中間業者在補件的時間因為那是屬於業者他的不是我們審理的時間所以要給予業者更寬容的時間那所以6加6這個看起來也是超過期限啊但是我剛剛提到的業者在補件的時間那一段要扣掉"},{"start":7607.62,"end":7622.629,"text":"因為這個都是我原先審查那其實這個我們不會特別去給你一個期限說你一定要哪個時候審查出來但是這期限也拖太久我問一下邱部長你會不會覺得這期限拖了有點久"},{"start":7625.12,"end":7645.297,"text":"我想最主要是如何能夠確保風險的問題這很重要 當然大家有些看法我是認為啦 署長 YES 或 NO 我覺得就講清楚我們作為行政機關 YES 或 NO 我覺得講清楚最怕拖 你不合格你就退掉"},{"start":7646.505,"end":7671.892,"text":"立決合格就讓他進來讓他進來的好處當然就是這個煙稅跟煙捐其實也增加了這個本來要課的稅本來就應該要課只是因為現在你們沒有讓他合法所以就變成一種走私結果大家也在抽加熱菸但是稅也收不到現在的困境就是這樣子所以我是請教一下邱部長你認為"},{"start":7673.274,"end":7679.329,"text":"這個從去年112年就有開始審查到現在也超過兩年的時間你有覺得這個審查時間有稍微久了一點了嗎"},{"start":7682.194,"end":7703.828,"text":"當然審查的時間是一件事情另外就審查的流程是不是有延宕這部分因為可能要有給他恢復的一個時間這個我都同意風險評估這個是法律規定我也同意全民的健康我也都同意我們不會讓行政部門有延宕的"},{"start":7704.788,"end":7726.326,"text":"但是我是覺得說我們也不要當鴕鳥因為你明明知道說現在加熱鹽其實在使用加熱鹽的很多從三個方面來那個第一個就是說審查委員的共識把那些規定啊標準大家寫了一個更多的共識第二個在法規這個部長啊這個我都沒有意見我的意思是說因為"},{"start":7728.788,"end":7751.46,"text":"你既然有一個風險評估但是呢 就是你yes或no你要跟人家講清楚就是你不要懸在那邊你懸在那邊 我跟你講過了嘛這個走私的照常走私我們該扣的稅也扣不到然後呢 那你就審查在pending那邊那也沒有什麼動作我認為行政機關不能這樣子啦"},{"start":7752.261,"end":7767.25,"text":"好 我想我們一定站在人民的健康以及社會的一個像走私 如果因為這樣真的是形成走私那就是不是一個好的狀況我們這也是一個社會的問題 這也要解決我們政府就是要解決問題的"},{"start":7768.354,"end":7792.272,"text":"我想任何問題出來我們就來解決請委員放心我們一定用最快的努力最大的努力來解決這一個大家所關心的問題所以今天不是是催促你說你一個月兩個月三個月就會要有結果出來我們會盡快開相關的會議絕對不會delay任何的行程因為拖延拖太久了就變成是說我們行政機關的問題"},{"start":7793.473,"end":7817.32,"text":"所以我一直覺得說你如果覺得說那你交出來的報告不好不對你就退回去你就隨便發個X也可以嘛因為兩年前那個時候我也是未還的立法委員我很清楚這怎麼組成的那都按照辦法在做可是一旦用這種審查的方式其實它的困難度就會真的會增加很多像美國的第一個Amin審"},{"start":7820.202,"end":7845.124,"text":"美國審第一個加熱菸審了四年多所以你覺得兩年還好就對了我們不是依那個為那是因為美國他剛才是審那其實我們是有這個基礎在審其實應該不用到四年的時間吧對不對所長你的意思應該是這樣子吧我已經從一直跟他報告我們一定用好意到社會的問題好意到整個"},{"start":7846.951,"end":7866.206,"text":"民情還有考慮到專業考慮到人民的健康的綜合下我們一定依法來辦理這個我覺得都有共識啦全民的健康那也顧慮到有社會的共識然後呢我們也希望說合法化之後呢我們的菸捐菸稅能夠增加因為現在長照的確也需要"},{"start":7867.787,"end":7893.922,"text":"這個其實都支持但是我的問點或是很多的立委的重點其實在於說因為你在那邊不上不下太久了那個三角形已經放很久了嘛那你也不給個答案我認為這樣不對你覺得不合格你就退回去那你如果覺得可以你覺得你覺得可以那你就讓它合法化我覺得應該是這樣子做才對啦我覺得不能夠不能夠一直Pending在那邊然後你也不做任何的決定啊是好 那我問一下這個莊部長"},{"start":7897.033,"end":7922.592,"text":"我們是不是有發個文啊給這個菸商啊請教一下說為持續提升茶器、菸品含加熱菸的效能還有防堵網路販賣違法菸品請菸商提出卓借與建議這個文的用意在哪裡啊我想對於茶器對我們精進茶器不遺餘力那當然這個部分我們也想聽一下他們的一些意見"},{"start":7924,"end":7944.782,"text":"那為什麼,我很好奇為什麼會發文給菸商,你是認為說因為他們比較知道說,這個走私危害到他們的這個正常的營業是這樣子嗎?所以你就發文給這些菸商,因為我是覺得陳正波發文給菸商然後去問說怎麼去防範走私,這個有點奇怪啦"},{"start":7945.362,"end":7947.086,"text":"我想我們是徵詢相關的意見然後來做我們精進的一個參考那當然應該我們也知道其他國家也都有合法的販售所以我們想請看看"},{"start":7956.087,"end":7975.077,"text":"他們能不能提供那這些其他國家在查緝上面的做法做我們的一個參考是這個應該是我們自己內部你包含警政署海巡署我們應該去做處理的這個內部我們也會我們下周就會再開一個會然後請他們大家提供一些更好的意見那先生有給你回覆嗎這個國庫署是來說明好"},{"start":7980.4,"end":8001.573,"text":"我們發函,那菸商他們也都有提供相關的意見但是意見大部分就是希望說整個茶器走私是阻絕於關外然後如果在市面上的話,就是在市面上的相關市場或者是販售地點去加強茶器這個部長不好意思,我是覺得這個是凸顯了我們對於這個茶器試菸"},{"start":8007.213,"end":8033.403,"text":"可能齁這個在力道上面齁有不足的地方結果呢我們自己內部當然你說你內部當然是有去做檢討去做聯繫我看你們還要加開什麼匯報之類的但是去問到這個菸燒我就覺得說好像是變我們行政機關去這個這方面查器試菸好像有做不到的地方還去問菸燒你跟我們講一下要怎麼去查器我就覺得這個很奇怪啦"},{"start":8034.584,"end":8035.485,"text":"主席有請財政部莊部長莊部長請"},{"start":8065.384,"end":8078.369,"text":"部長早總部長今天是6月19號目前的報稅情況如何預收金額跟目前的時收數達成率是多少可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":8080.253,"end":8087.817,"text":"跟委員說明今年因為所得稅的申報以及繳納的期限延長到6月底到6月17號為止中所稅已經完成申報的有583萬件大概達成了85%還有15萬還沒有完成申報那在中所稅的部分已經完成了88%"},{"start":8105.865,"end":8124.413,"text":"那至於在稅收的部分呢大概是我們目前來說只有統計到五月底那這個數字其實在比較的基礎上比較沒有具有太大的意義因為今年整個繳納的期限延到六月底所以所以五月底的數字跟去年的同期當然是有一段很大的差距是"},{"start":8124.873,"end":8141.872,"text":"是的 分別是85%跟88%這個是申報的件數 大概到6月17號那還是要呼籲一下民眾儘早完成報酬是的 是的 還有剩10 12天我們希望民眾在期限內完成回到主題我們那個私菸 茶器一直是國人關心的重點"},{"start":8142.913,"end":8147.816,"text":"那你們這個實驗查緝作業的報告指出說1月3年查緝違法菸品1,120萬包那1月2年查緝查獲數量是1,838萬包相較減少了718萬"},{"start":8160.605,"end":8175.38,"text":"這個煙啦但是件數增加了4589件現在看起來就是件數增加是因為有假發現增炸彩的情況這個部分新聞都有寫啦因為這不是口說空口說的這個部分新聞分別都海巡人員這個"},{"start":8178.363,"end":8202.1,"text":"涉勾結私煙集團詐領查緝獎金還有就是加熱煙走私 年成長86%海關人員說政府不徵稅 偷垮基層海巡抓煙暴集團集體貪污這個勾結集團詐領高額獎金的部分那所以我想這個部分"},{"start":8205.653,"end":8218.841,"text":"利用街友低收入戶當人頭然後乍領茶企這個私菸獎金國庫直接變成他們的提款機那人頭戶原本帳戶收入不多但是在2019、2023年間開設的私菸工廠"},{"start":8222.023,"end":8236.685,"text":"總共被裁罰了七次那這罰款五千五百多萬但是他卻只繳了一萬四千多塊的這些罰金那這七次的查緝獎金跟檢舉獎金就被領走兩千四百八十二萬"},{"start":8237.626,"end":8263.306,"text":"那如果依照海巡單位自己的說法說查緝一千萬的私菸最高獎金是四百八十萬就四十八趴 這相當高喔那二零二三年查獲的私菸市價是八點五九億獎金發了八千多萬減少七百一十八萬包但是件數增加四千五百八十九件這很明顯的內神通外鬼不知道A走多少錢 部長"},{"start":8264.927,"end":8277.89,"text":"太晚發現釀成了這樣子的一個大錯這是一個大問題所以請教部長你要如何精進如何檢討那國庫署這邊有沒有跟你提出相關的檢討報告可不可以跟我們說明一下"},{"start":8278.996,"end":8286.879,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員我想第一個就是包數減少但是呢查獲的件數增加主要的原因第一個就是說原來私菸他透過走邊境走私轉化成為在國內的地下菸廠來施製來產製這個私菸而且這個地下菸廠原來是屬於大規模的"},{"start":8297.703,"end":8301.305,"text":"那個比較大的機器設備而現在是採小規模但是它地點分散所以在查緝的難度上確實有提高那件數增加我想這個部分我們已經有所說明那當然還有當然今天發生就是說我們發現這個海巡這樣的一個不法的事件是絕對不應該的但是也不能因為這個事件而去抹殺到其他的"},{"start":8320.154,"end":8336.605,"text":"查緝人員跟查緝機關的努力我想還是有合法的海巡同仁對沒有錯但是我要告訴地方政府都在努力的查緝我要告訴部長部長因為我們不只是失冤啦包括查扣的這些成品半成品原料還有產製的器具是不是都應該銷毀"},{"start":8337.566,"end":8342.19,"text":"沒有錯 都應該銷毀但是我們要講一個實例2023年9月我們這個簡年派人到彰化和美倉庫辦理實驗室被銷毀的時候卻發現我們的茶系人員僅將這些機器都拋棄在"},{"start":8355.5,"end":8377.068,"text":"這個廢鐵回收區沒有針對馬達主機板主體結構等重要部會進行破壞還把這些高單價的像包裝機這個部分刻意藏匿於這個鐵罐區你們的報告裡面有說為了要避免查獲的私營原料器具再度流入流出做非法的用途所以財政部"},{"start":8377.908,"end":8386.098,"text":"會依菸酒管理法57條沒收或者是沒收之後競速銷毀那請問部長你有沒有規定一個銷毀的期限"},{"start":8388.588,"end":8406.404,"text":"我沒有規定應該要做這樣的事情對 它還沒做對 它沒有做 表示說沒有徹底資金那至於怎麼樣強化這樣的一個機制財政部也一直在努力然後下個禮拜我們會邀同相關的機關來把制度上更做的經濟把它明定出來 好不好避免這些東西沒有被銷毀然後又流入市場"},{"start":8412.549,"end":8435.897,"text":"那造成不當的這些人士,不孝的這些人士,變成他們來練才啦好,謝謝委員的指教,謝謝那再請教部長就是說,其實這件事常常發生啦偷龍轉鳳啦,偷天換日啦,這些東西把一些比較沒有價值的,價值性低的,或者是去做更換那所以我這邊要講的就是說"},{"start":8437.865,"end":8453.323,"text":"事實上就是這些器具跟成品總是能夠逃離執法人員的法眼再度的流入市場甚至有一些已經到了焚化廠但是委外辦理的這些人操作的人"},{"start":8455.245,"end":8480.794,"text":"原來要銷毀的這些違規的這些菸品或者是器具被這個偷糧換住然後變成他們私自販賣得利的這樣子的一些這樣子的情況所以這個問題是顯示說我們原來在查緝上跟銷毀制度上的不夠完整剛剛部長你也提到很多東西沒有明定對不對 沒有強化所以這部分下禮拜就拜託部長"},{"start":8481.634,"end":8503.705,"text":"把這些我們需要補強的部分把它強化之後好不好讓我們的制度能夠更加的完善謝謝委員的指教我們這個一定把它納入對當然這個查緝銷毀這部分是要強化但是至於說我們的檢舉跟獎勵制度上也要做更全面的修正好的也要做一個更更嚴密的一個制度的設計是的謝謝委員的指教謝謝部長部長請回"},{"start":8507.507,"end":8512.077,"text":"謝謝 再次加一部分有請我們衛福部邱部長還有國建署的吳署長"},{"start":8517.782,"end":8546.463,"text":"委員好部長好 署長好這個主管機關是我們衛福部跟國界署那當然我要強調就是說我們不鼓勵抽菸啦但是剛剛很多委員都有提到就是說因為造成因為加熱菸的這樣子的狀況那造成現在走失猖獗走失猖獗那因為這是因為政府的不作為嘛不可以說現在"},{"start":8548.072,"end":8575.612,"text":"除了是走私猖獗也是國庫的損失啦變成說讓這些民眾要去用高價購買這些走私菸所以這沒有人樂見啦剛剛我們很多委員都有提出嘛提出說要求說我們計數什麼時間之內能夠完成審查那我想請教說部長跟署長可不可以請你們定出一個時間到底多久才會完成這個審查就是加熱菸的這個部分"},{"start":8577.76,"end":8595.549,"text":"確定的時間當然我不敢講因為這是審查會的審查裡面的專家學者他有沒有針對資料然後做以投票的一個過程我想這個部分很多很多的審查都是這樣子所以這要尊重半年之內有沒有辦法"},{"start":8597.07,"end":8614.596,"text":"我想我們一定在這裡面盡量來完成這樣的一個我們會站在人民的健康、社會的關注以及說國家應該來看看怎麼樣均衡這些健康跟社會問題我們政府就是要來解決問題的我們會盡速來解決這些問題"},{"start":8617.757,"end":8637.113,"text":"對啦 部長跟署長要請你們再加把勁像去年光是加熱煙就增加了1.3倍走失的部分這是有查獲的喔那沒有查獲的我們不知道有多少當然因為他還沒有審查過所以基本上他也是屬於要查緝的對對對 沒錯好 謝謝部長跟署長要再請我們海巡署的謝副署長謝副署長請"},{"start":8651.775,"end":8677.598,"text":"委員長這個警方出估類似的詐領獎金的事件恐怕已經持續五年以上那國庫損失的部分已經高達數億元這個還不包括非法的私菸流入市場但是你們跳出來說詐領的金額沒有高達上億元是媒體錯誤的報導那我想海巡署發生了這麼嚴重的漏洞"},{"start":8679.199,"end":8705.736,"text":"實在是讓人無法接受應該是要怎麼樣強化這個法紀的教育這些空洞的說辭都沒有辦法為你們為整個海巡署在發生這麼嚴重的這樣子的一個狀況之下嚴重的漏洞你們除了處分這個偵辦的偵查員之外還有沒有什麼其他具體的做法"},{"start":8706.417,"end":8723.674,"text":"謝謝委員 委員我們除了我們對於危有犯罪絕對零容忍這個涉案被激要我們立即免職另外交保兩位我們列入年底考機要太除另外在精進作法部分所有類案我們做檢舉筆錄的時候隊長要在場"},{"start":8725.996,"end":8750.534,"text":"要核花檢舉獎金的時候 政風人員要督辦不僅保護當事人身份 也要確認檢舉事實的真實性接下來我們也全面清查類案跟委員報告 我們現在清查目前這個案 彰化地檢署正在偵辦這個案子最近三年 台中地檢署有申請只有一個案子思源工廠 核花是171萬元"},{"start":8752.515,"end":8779.003,"text":"目前我們掌握是這一件那當然我們排除其他案件我們清查中目前包括地緣署也還沒有其他具體的線索只有這一件這一件核發是只有171萬元那如果說講數億元的話對於絕大多數辛苦奉獻的因為時間到了所以我想就是說你還是要這個要挽回大家對海巡署的信心那必須要有些具體作文好不好那你也要為國庫的損失"},{"start":8780.623,"end":8788.647,"text":"提出一個合理的交代是好不好我們就全力以赴好 謝謝好 謝謝英文的執行 下面請李卓文執行我請財政部部長跟邱部長兩位一起兩位部長請也感謝邱部長每一次我們委員會的這個重要的議題你都親自來代表你對本委員會的重視喔也代表你對CN查緝的重視喔"},{"start":8810.718,"end":8838.174,"text":"5月20號的時候針對於私菸茶器的部分我們財政部發文給五大菸商就是對於我們目前加熱菸的違法達到96萬包跟去年相比113年同期相比增加了44萬所以我們財政部就發文問了菸商說我們到底要應該怎麼做這麼多私菸但是我們大家都知道私菸的管理茶器事實上重要的責任是在衛福部"},{"start":8838.914,"end":8845.482,"text":"我覺得這個做法 當然可以財政部做了 中部長做了 當然沒錯但是我們有橫向聯繫的部門啊怎麼沒有第一時間先找衛福部商量"},{"start":8851.519,"end":8868.854,"text":"或者找大家一起來同時找衛福部一起來這是第一個我覺得你們是不是感情不夠好照道理說部長你應該先找邱部長我們大家一起找看有關單位是誰來海關 檢查 警察哪些單位一起來 菸商一起來"},{"start":8870.535,"end":8875.698,"text":"直接發文給他 在我看來你們兩個感情是很好的但是5月27號 我們衛福部就發了一個電子煙箱的查緝平台對於後續未來各部會怎麼去從源頭去做管理我們去做一些討論"},{"start":8892.628,"end":8918.961,"text":"相較之下我覺得這也凸顯出我們包括我看到衛福部我們的國建署在6月17號就在媒體發出聲明就是說我們對目前財閥的這個數目我們是非常滿意的財閥的數量高但是同時我覺得財政部也沒有錯因為我們違法的訴訟也高"},{"start":8921.887,"end":8938.663,"text":"財閥的數量高跟我們違法數量高這是兩件不一樣的事情代表我們違反的人特別多這個也是我要提醒衛福部的地方違規的人多當然你財閥數量也高啊相對的不斷都在提高啊所以"},{"start":8939.861,"end":8957.936,"text":"我覺得這並不代表財政部杞人憂天但是邱部長我憑良心講我能夠理解財政部的擔心因為我看到國建署提供的數據從今年1月到5月我們全國查緝電子菸的數量只有158件家人菸總共有1445件網路平台裁罰的只有7件"},{"start":8966.721,"end":8971.108,"text":"這個數據 我現在講的數字你應該都很清楚但是我們底下的黑數"},{"start":8981.132,"end":9002.834,"text":"是這個的幾倍你們知道嗎你有聽到嗎 邱部長我們從供應面 泛射面 使用面其實都是結合各部會對啦 我說你知道黑樹有可能是這個的幾倍你知道嗎那你知道黑樹比這個都多很多所說的樹木不曉得吳司長有沒有誰可以回應我"},{"start":9005.189,"end":9013.336,"text":"謝謝李委員的關心那過去移送裁判的案件有一些事還沒有裁判還在行政調查當中那莊部長你覺得黑數是現在查緝到的可能的幾倍所以比現在查緝到的更多"},{"start":9026.363,"end":9040.055,"text":"有沒有可能應該當然查緝到的跟沒有查緝到的當然都有啦部長你都不敢承認我就直接告訴你黑數恐怕是你們查緝到的數十倍以上好來我要以網路販售為例"},{"start":9043.698,"end":9071.33,"text":"我們現在網路上根本就不能賣煙嘛你們很清楚嘛無論是煙品或電子煙都是依法都是全面禁止的但是我們光從Google上面就可以輕易找到三家在網路上販賣加熱煙或電子煙或者我們年輕人現在從IG也好臉書也好或者有一些LINE的社群都會告訴大家你要抽電子煙你要去哪裡買"},{"start":9072.811,"end":9099.577,"text":"所以就是說我們現在國建署對外只是蝦皮啦 露天啦或者跟有一些平台業者合作獲得初步的控制但是買這些私菸的狀況事實上有太多的管道都不再列入你們現在茶季的範圍之內所以今天為什麼張偉排了這個專報就是對於目前茶季私菸的部分"},{"start":9100.357,"end":9104.038,"text":"對於你們目前所掌握到的管道事實上大家是不滿意的這也凸顯出財政部的憂慮事實上是沒有錯的所以我覺得在查緝的部分我還是要提醒邱部長我們還是有精進的功能你不可以只看蝦皮露天因為現在很多人賴群組有在抽這個電子驗他們自己有跟你講到哪裡去買"},{"start":9126.624,"end":9155.461,"text":"所以目前我看到的其實用心一點大家都知道翠上面也有人在糾團的餵啦所以我覺得這個是你要去注意的地方但是部長 邱部長你可以站旁邊來 莊部長但是我覺得你經濟的地方還有一些地方可以去做處理就是說翠上面我有看到網路在分享譬如說小港機場有人講說我們現在拖運的行李都會照X光你多帶菸大家都看得到你帶什麼微鏡瓶都看得到"},{"start":9156.081,"end":9176.124,"text":"但是手提的就沒有經過X光機嘛就是用目測看你有沒有多帶多買嘛但是往往我就看到TRACE上面有一個漏洞喔有人就是我先手提用拿的當我經過因為我們現在有那個驗那個豬肉的那個豬瘟非洲豬瘟嘛但非洲豬瘟不管菸品嘛部長你知道嘛你帶十條菸你帶二十條電子菸他沒有看嘛因為他只看有沒有帶豬肉嘛"},{"start":9185.826,"end":9193.65,"text":"他拿完 通過那個X光機查有沒有豬瘟的時候他就走到廁所去那他就把他所買的電子菸全部都塞到T0的行李裡面你就沒看到嘛所以我只講這個案例給你事實上 查緝私菸不是只有衛福部的責任事實上財政部有很多可以精進的作為"},{"start":9208.416,"end":9223.508,"text":"所以這是我今天在提醒你們的地方好 我這個議題到此結束來 部長你們都可以請邱部長你可以請回 莊部長你可以留下來部長你要再留下來對不起 我還有第二個議題好 那個你們其他可以請回就是說上個月我有質詢那個不印證的議題就是說如何對於不印證的那個補助的扣除額的部分現在你們本來是要求前三年要會計制度完備現在改成前一年就好了看起來是放寬了"},{"start":9237.859,"end":9255.552,"text":"但是我要提醒的是我們做這件事情當時賴慧雯是召委我們都同意說事實上我們政府做這件事情我們扣除的目的是要維持基本生活的必要支出還有我們政府認為這件事情應該是要給予扣除跟"},{"start":9256.972,"end":9272.427,"text":"補助的所以那個扣除而改成一年這個事情跟不孕症夫妻事實上是沒有足夠原因這是兩件事情我覺得應該把重心放在如何讓診所採取何種報稅的方式"},{"start":9273.644,"end":9277.488,"text":"就是不應該把它放在你是哪一種報稅方式而是應該確認民眾確實他因為做不孕症的這個醫療他可以得到補助這個核心問題應該是在這邊而不是說你報稅制度完被改成三年改成兩年我覺得這件事情我仍舊不認同"},{"start":9293.804,"end":9321.05,"text":"我希望你可以回去考慮那第二點就是說我覺得你們目前無論是次費補助或健保補助你有四種方式無論是查證核實或書面審查或前三年的這個平均損益或按費用的費率來做申報這是屬於健保診所的部分但是事實上對於現在次費的部分你要求說你一定要用按費用率來去做申報"},{"start":9322.37,"end":9331.922,"text":"不管是健保有沒有健保或自費我覺得你不應該有兩套制度才來去叫做會計制度的完備我覺得這個對於我們對於政府獎勵就是說"},{"start":9337.749,"end":9363.248,"text":"補助 就是你可以做不印證就扣除了這件事情我覺得應該是回到一些基本包括大法官701號也有解釋說對於醫療費用支出 稅增機關應該等於職權審核至於用哪一種審核方式不應該增加行政稽查的成本否則用特定的申報方式是有違反平等原則"},{"start":9364.489,"end":9384.035,"text":"這是大法官701號的解釋我要提醒您所以不管是健保或者是自費我覺得應該都要用便民的方式來去做處理也不應該違反平等原則最後我要請邱部長衛福部有要求你就是說對於做不孕症的部分我們本來要求說"},{"start":9385.936,"end":9411.028,"text":"財政部有建議衛福部說應該要會計制度的完備你才可以申請到那個不孕症的補助對不對他有要求這件事情嗎我剛剛講的那個是扣除額的部分那我是講人工生殖的補助這部分我們補助的全部免稅對不起你再講一次如果由國健署補助的"},{"start":9412.012,"end":9434.492,"text":"對啦 事實上我覺得跟委員報告 我支持衛福部只要是政府補救的費用多免納入報稅免稅這是兩件事 我們現在對 但是現在衛福財政部要求說應該要會計制度完備才可以 你到醫院才可以領到那個人工生殖補助這是兩件事情 剛剛我講的是"},{"start":9435.353,"end":9463.105,"text":"扣除額 在你的每年要繳的稅的扣除額我現在講的是國建署現在目前那個補助的要件的修正跟調整喔所以我絕對支持衛福部現在不用去管會計制度有沒有完備 你只要有做我就給你補助 這個是我們政府給予補助的目的所以財政部這樣是 你不要去介入他那麼多 因為"},{"start":9464.145,"end":9483.439,"text":"我們政府目的是不是要補助給這些年輕人你不認證的困難我就是給你補助讓你去做有沒有自費或有沒有健保這都不是當時選擇這些診所條件他只要選擇說我覺得這個醫生好做有機會成功風評不錯我就要去這家醫院做他馬去管說請問你這家醫院有沒有會計制度完備"},{"start":9484.64,"end":9494.805,"text":"我覺得這個是不對的所以我絕對支持衛福部的做法以上就是今天的質詢我們再跟委員做說謝謝麗委員的質詢現在請陳立正委員質詢幫忙為陳立正委員質詢完畢後我們休息十分鐘剛才宣布過了先請我們邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":9512.403,"end":9530.998,"text":"部長你支持國不國立國際醫療台灣發展的國際醫療產業我們國家一直在發展對嘛 支持這個產業發展國際醫療因為台灣的醫療水準醫療產業相當的好除了現在我們有台積電希望下一個國際醫療可以變成我們一個很好的這個產業對吧"},{"start":9533.386,"end":9540.193,"text":"請問,境外人士來這邊做這些國際醫療,比如說醫美啊,境外人士啦,外國人啦,境外人士,可以使用健保嗎?不行。不行嘛,對不對?是不是自費?自費。所以這樣會掏空健保嗎?"},{"start":9555.906,"end":9579.236,"text":"如果以單純來做醫美對啊就做這些國際醫療當然就是因為他們如果是國外的人嘛對就國外我說就國外來這邊做一些國際醫療啦他沒有我們的健保沒有健保就是國外的人嘛日本人啊韓國人啊就是國外的人嘛都是國外對境外人士啊就外國不管哪裡反正沒有健保的人啊沒有健保的人不能用健保嘛對不對因為國際醫療是這樣而且要自費對不對是這個產業我們也很鼓勵嘛一直在推嘛是那這樣會掏空健保嗎"},{"start":9585.766,"end":9614.299,"text":"如果只有在這個國際外國人到這邊做智慧的項目外國人包括大陸人士啊大陸人是境外人士啊沒有什麼關係這樣子沒有啦 沒有關係喔跟那個健保的 不會掏空健保跟醫療量沒有關係喔好 謝謝不會掏空會影響健保就是國人這醫美 然後如果產生副作用對 那個是國人嘛 那個就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就就"},{"start":9615.762,"end":9619.164,"text":"我今天要請教您是因為有一個霸團或者是律師賴中強說他最近一直說出一些很奇怪的話雖然他是法律專業但他也不是醫療產業也不是這個軍事專業他說什麼我們主張做國際醫療就會掏空台灣的健保量能掏空台灣健保"},{"start":9645.259,"end":9674.058,"text":"這個是雞心叵測 非常差第二個 他又說 來 這個 這一個他又說兩岸人民關係條例第29條修正案企圖將禁限制水域去主權化將台海關係定為內戰關係形成台灣問題是中國內政問題的法律框架這是陳永康委員提出來的那個我想請問你這個兩岸條例這個29條修法重點這個你應該知道我們禁限制水域是由哪邊公告啊"},{"start":9675.279,"end":9695.381,"text":"我們金縣制水域現在都是國防部公告依照聯合條例第2條現在是國防部公告是好那我想請問那現在我們這個金縣制水域就是我們現在金門以金門地區來講金縣制水域周遭的水域是你們是海軍國防部的海軍艦艇來巡防還是由海巡署你們來巡防"},{"start":9696.443,"end":9708.738,"text":"那個地方因為太敏感太近我平時上都進行水域都4000到6000公尺那我也非常清楚地理非常接近所以目前執法在近現實水域內都是海巡人員在執法馬祖金門包括東定等等都是中國"},{"start":9715.667,"end":9734.662,"text":"自己宣稱所謂的臨海基線 臨海範圍內嘛因為他很近嘛 我們太近了嘛我要重申是中國宣稱所謂的 我知道我知道因為他那條線劃過來基本馬祖就在中國劃的那個臨海範圍內嘛所以我們那時候中華民國劃一個那個臨海基線的時候對 劃第一批臨海基線的時候有沒有把我們基門劃進去"},{"start":9736.104,"end":9742.83,"text":"金門的話因為臨海基線的話我們現在劃的現在都是近線之水域就沒有劃沒有劃沒有劃基本上臨海基線一劃就跟東沙一樣東沙本島一樣劃臨海基線我們12海里就臨海"},{"start":9758.306,"end":9787.175,"text":"所以這個陳永康委員修這個二十九條的這個兩岸條例是因為現在的確執法就是這個是執法就是海巡署在執法吧不是國軍執法因為環境特殊吧也避免太近啊萬一什麼衝突啊因為兩岸關係特殊所以畫設淨水線涉及到國防戰略國家安全跟地區情勢等等我知道我想請問你來我想請問你這一點是所以"},{"start":9788.055,"end":9791.418,"text":"所以如果 我想請問法務部 法務部上來一下我先請問你 禁限制水域這個東西是不是國際海洋法裡面的我先請問你 賴中強說 將會把金門大變成中國的內海化國際海洋公約內海這種名詞嗎"},{"start":9807.011,"end":9831.119,"text":"有 寧海跟主委報告寧海可以自然基線跟直線基線中國大陸採直線基線 不管怎樣寧海基線耗完之後裡面是內水12海浬是寧海那有內海嗎 有內水我知道內國水域啊 沒有內海他說我們把它變內海 是內水嘛專有名詞怎麼可以說是內海呢學法律的律師什麼都不懂胡說八道我請問法務部來"},{"start":9833.666,"end":9861.067,"text":"金縣治水你剛剛有聽到金門因為這個環境特殊所以有畫了金縣治水域 國防部畫了一個金縣治水域然後金門也沒有被中華民國畫入在臨海基線裡頭因為我們就是離大陸太近嘛特殊原因沒有辦法畫嘛但是大陸畫的裡頭 中國大陸是有把我們畫進去這是他畫的啦好 那特殊 所以我們現在是海巡在守嘛海巡在守 沒有國防部在守因為怕說萬一有什麼衝突 海軍第一級啊擔心這很多衝突啦所以現在是海巡在幫我們顧海岸"},{"start":9861.907,"end":9877.261,"text":"還要顧那個禁限制水域這個事實上就是這樣子那請問啊這個如果禁限制水域這個東西喔這個由國防部改為海委會來公告那這個是不是請問這個國防部是不是代表國家主權國防部我們政府機關都是代表國家去行使我們的公權利沒錯嘛海巡署算不算"},{"start":9887.998,"end":9897.819,"text":"是嘛 海巡署有比國安部高 海委會啦應該說海委會啦海委會高比國安部稅寒國安部代表國家主權海委會就不代表國家主權嗎"},{"start":9899.5,"end":9922.418,"text":"都是屬於行政院的一部分對嘛 都是行政院 都是我們國家的中央機關嘛 這個沒有問題嘛所以就法律上來講 為什麼有律師會說把限制或禁止水域把國安部公告的部分 公告啦 改為現在本來就是已經是海巡在管了啦實際上海巡在管 改為什麼海委會來公告就會變成是我們去主權化呢"},{"start":9923.752,"end":9937.588,"text":"為什麼這樣會被人去阻結案 你可以解釋一下嗎他的這個律師公開開記者會這樣講喔他說公告單位本來是國防部變成海巡的話為什麼這樣被人去阻結案你們海巡組海委會不是國家主權的象徵喔委員可以補充報告嗎他為什麼這樣講啊報告委員 不管律師怎麼講"},{"start":9940.731,"end":9957.28,"text":"我們政府機關立場是這樣因為現在實際上在你們政府機關立場沒有問題誰要換我都沒有問題重點不在這裡我是說這樣是會我的意思是在評論這件事情說是不是他的評論是正確的因為就像他說國際醫療來做國際醫療就會把我們的健保掏空明明那些人都要付費"},{"start":9958.16,"end":9972.298,"text":"都要花錢耶我們意思是說我們不僅司法考量當然還有國防戰略跟國家安全考量這個都是可以考慮但是這等於是說如果有你們來公告就去主權嗎我問的是這個問題有誰來公告這都可以考慮"},{"start":9975.342,"end":9996.514,"text":"但是會因為這樣而變得去嘴因為今天是海巡在管那現在海巡不要管叫國防部回來管因為實際上海巡沒有錯但是他整個牽涉層面國安跟國防戰略考量等等包括地區穩定等等所以還是由國防部會比較恰當沒問題我說誰公告這都不是重點現在是你們在管所以你們在管就不是捍衛國家主權"},{"start":9998.655,"end":10005.78,"text":"我們絕對絕對捍衛國家主權 是嘛所以你們也是捍衛國家主權嘛 是但是因為 帶中強胡說八道來 那請問另外一條 來 我先發布兩岸人民關係條例第八十條之一規範規範什麼你知道嗎我唸給你聽一下大陸的這個船舶未經許可進入台灣地區台灣地區就是金門台灣地區 台澎金限制或禁限制水域處心臺壁的划船一千萬 三十萬"},{"start":10024.173,"end":10049.152,"text":"這個機關訂的是哪一個機關喔?我該跟你講了你知道這條嗎?應該是由主管機關來海巡啦主管機關那如果照這樣講這個處罰應該要給國防部訂啊為什麼要給海委會訂?跨社都不能給海委會處罰為什麼要給那個我問一下法律觀念啦在兩岸條例部分有關距離越界路傳的話我要問法務部好不好你都知道我知道我要問法務部因為這是法律問題啦"},{"start":10050.693,"end":10078.035,"text":"實際就是你們在做嘛我知道我是不知道為什麼這樣跟主權會有關係會把什麼會矮化我們的主權啊然後也沒有內海這種詞啊要說什麼這是什麼什麼內海內水就內水不懂為什麼這樣會矮化主權喔法務部這怎麼解釋成矮化主權中央行政機關都是捍衛主權為出發點來去解釋都是代表國家的主權嘛齁有沒有問題海委會就是矮化主權是嗎"},{"start":10080.867,"end":10094.947,"text":"跟委員報告說兩岸條例很多主管機關去年就入船的話主管機關明定是我們海委會海巡署但是我剛才報告過了整個化設淨水域要牽涉到方方面面的考量沒問題 有別的考量沒有問題但是這跟主權有什麼關係"},{"start":10096.189,"end":10111.606,"text":"沒有關係嘛 對不對來 副主長我來問一個 海巡署的一個問題這個齁 反正我在這裡釐清啦就有一些所謂什麼金明年耐律師啊什麼都不懂 軍事也不懂 醫療也不懂 就胡說八道什麼都是什麼矮化主權 只是為了要罷免而已來"},{"start":10113.428,"end":10136.128,"text":"這個破壞國人的這個破壞產業的發展像醫療產業發展很重要這樣子誤導老百姓來那個海巡署我要請問啦副市長這個艦對不起再一分鐘艦隊君子聯執行海上查緝主角和海域衝突的高抗性情務風險很高嘛高的案情那至於設計你們現在沒有24小時待命或是已領海情加急你們把它排除當作戰鬥加急對象對不對是"},{"start":10137.97,"end":10141.192,"text":"我們在108年有跟人種爭取過那因為以前都是養種局變艦隊分屬因為你們裡面有警職人員嘛 直八倍四嘛警職人員可以加班可以申請補休 軍職卻沒有辦法 這樣公平嗎"},{"start":10155.742,"end":10177.678,"text":"因為我們有規定各類人員要依照各自的人事法令來辦理軍職就沒有申請只有夜點會我知道所以我的意思是說因為我們最近不是修軍的話有戰鬥家旗可以加所以像在海巡裡頭的軍職人員他沒有啊而且你們還要求你們是不是有要求軍職人員簽署不清明戰鬥家旗的切結書有要求嗎"},{"start":10178.578,"end":10191.883,"text":"那個事讓他知道你過來依規定他過來艦隊分屬沒辦法支領海巡部隊你們可以行政程序法第70條行政機關不得已企業或其他方式限制人民依法得享之潛力喔你可以隨便叫人家簽這個嗎我們等於是調查意願調查說這個沒有強制力就對了沒有沒有沒有沒有而且"},{"start":10197.885,"end":10215.727,"text":"軍人待遇條例通過之後他以後會比我們的人員高考比方稍微出任一個月多一萬七左右副組長我再講說一下三件事情第一個請你釐清戰鬥家籍的適用標準實際用實際的勤務來認定適用對象如果你說什麼考試院還是權需不要"},{"start":10215.967,"end":10234.404,"text":"人種我們會全力爭取不要用形式來排除這個艦隊的君子聯第二個沒有辦法請領加班費這個不合理之物請要檢討這個東西第三個請你們禁止有一法務在這裡不可以用切結束方式剝奪老百姓尤其你們的"},{"start":10235.305,"end":10255.074,"text":"人員申請補助的權利不要再簽這種東西違法行為不要再簽這種東西而且要追溯補償回復應有權利一個月內給我答案可以嗎是一個月內可以嗎一定可以好 謝謝副處長好 謝謝陳立堅委員的諮詢我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":10281.815,"end":10293.657,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10336.613,"end":10345.218,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10372.944,"end":10390.725,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10416.526,"end":10422.814,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":10444.155,"end":10459.683,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":10492.755,"end":10493.956,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":10532.763,"end":10532.783,"text":"好"},{"start":10584.923,"end":10594.957,"text":"來 請"},{"start":10624.764,"end":10626.665,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10661.459,"end":10685.435,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10717.337,"end":10729.989,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10742.79,"end":10757.278,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10774.326,"end":10775.309,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":10811.903,"end":10813.049,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":10842.978,"end":10843.52,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":10871.598,"end":10876.241,"text":"好 報告委員會 我們現在繼續開會有請林思敏委員 請好 謝謝主席 有請財政部莊部長財政部的莊部長好委員好市長部長好 部長"},{"start":10897.179,"end":10925.673,"text":"我想在2019年2月當時因為省紀部的審核報告所以監察院進一步的去查核後續的監察院報告指出財政部長期消極以韓文要求地方政府全然未派源實地查核以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所定的實地查核機制導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用茶器的經費"},{"start":10927.034,"end":10955.853,"text":"因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部但是我們看到上週有媒體報導有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私煙集團詐領私煙的查緝獎金高達數億國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明但是針對這個案件我想了解說財政部內部是否已經有去了解到底被詐領的金額有多少"},{"start":10957.114,"end":10970.503,"text":"那國庫署的新聞稿中對於這些被詐領的金額其實他沒有做任何的說明就金額的現在這個追討的結果如何並沒有做一個說明所以後續我們對於追討會採取哪些動作請部長來說明謝謝委員對於這樣的一個情況我們認為應該要嚴處"},{"start":10981.963,"end":10996.35,"text":"那另外對於這一個個案目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中那我們到第一個動作我們就是發函給海巡署看能不能提供我們相關資料這個個案到底這個人領走了多少"},{"start":10997.126,"end":11015.524,"text":"金額的獎金那麼我們後續才能夠做相關的一個追討所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的一個結果對 如果司法偵查出來以後會更明確這個人所涉及的一個個案那目前因為我們也大概透過各種方式來了解同時也發函給海巡署這樣子部長"},{"start":11016.625,"end":11033.303,"text":"但因為司法偵辦的結果通常耗日廢時是不是可以跟我們直接跟海巡署這邊跟海委會來做一個行政的一個調查到底他們這個詐領了多少錢然後我們提早跟他來追討"},{"start":11033.883,"end":11051.698,"text":"是的我們這個部分我們會再跟海委會跟海巡署來請他們再提供那追討的未來的結果如何也請財政部能夠再提供相關的一個追討的資料給我們財委會好的我們會把後面的追查結果提報告給委員會謝謝委員"},{"start":11054.42,"end":11076.774,"text":"另外我們關於媒體報導中他也提到說私菸茶器所處理的上億元的罰款因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳但是我們的獎金是一樣的發放那罰款扣不到但是獎金還是一樣給"},{"start":11078.18,"end":11086.85,"text":"造成聽起來讓人們的感覺就是說這個國庫損失不少像這樣子的一個情況未來要如何補救"},{"start":11087.478,"end":11091.68,"text":"是謝謝委員對於有關發給茶器這個獎金的部分是為了鼓勵努力跟積極茶器的人員給予獎勵那至於他所課真的罰還沒有能夠收到那涉及到這個這個這所謂的處分人他就對變那個人本身的財力那這個部分我想我們會在下一步的部分會在制度面上來做一個設計"},{"start":11113.03,"end":11128.237,"text":"在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的一個情況尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶他根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣一個情況我們的制度面要設計然後讓他做得更精進更有效謝謝委員指教 現在請法務部的劉主任檢察官劉主任檢察官請"},{"start":11145.774,"end":11164.648,"text":"對於我剛才提到的就是私菸集團利用人頭當負責人導致我們罰款扣不到的情況當然剛才財務部說是會研擬但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關那法務部對這種罰款扣不到的情況是否也會有相對應的一個措施"},{"start":11165.669,"end":11174.524,"text":"法管扣不到的時候如果說之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話我們也會配合來辦理"},{"start":11176.209,"end":11196.74,"text":"因為這人頭啊 他就沒有錢啊我相信說 法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人 結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生"},{"start":11198.443,"end":11218.374,"text":"不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器"},{"start":11218.874,"end":11234.265,"text":"OK 好 謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算"},{"start":11236.807,"end":11251.28,"text":"所以如果說現在這個霸團就是他送進來的連署書第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人是有重複連署的一個情況我想請教法奧普對於這種霸團"},{"start":11252.521,"end":11276.406,"text":"他明知故犯第一階段的提人你不能再成為第二階段的連署人結果你積極的去鼓吹告訴說請第一階段的提人你二階也來連署然後為了湊數灌水把這些一階段提人的連署書也把它一起湊起來重複連署達到我們二階法定的一個罷免門檻"},{"start":11278.066,"end":11288.794,"text":"請問這樣的行為是不是是用詩詠詐術來獲取不法利益讓被罷免的人可以達到被罷免的一個門檻這是不是一個詩詠詐術的詐欺行為啊區片中選會這樣是不是詐欺行為啊"},{"start":11295.94,"end":11313.956,"text":"報告委員有關於刑法的詐欺罪它規定在339條那它是屬於財產犯罪的類型那要件的話是要求說個人要被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖那也必須要適用詐數就誠如剛才委員所說的詐數的部分是"},{"start":11314.196,"end":11341.924,"text":"那最後的話他要求必須要有財產上的損害或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益那在符合這些構成要件的前提下才會去探討說是否這個行為是該當那回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法81條第三項的部分那固然這邊有規定一個強制規定禁止說這個提名人提議人作為一個聯署人不得為聯署人的部分"},{"start":11343.004,"end":11365.681,"text":"那明知故犯啊 是要有沒有犯下什麼罪那如果是從財產犯罪來講的話還是必須要回到財產犯罪裡面的本質就是要有財產上的損害你意思說這個是有私刑詐欺的太陽存在但是是不是構成詐欺罪因為它不屬於財產犯罪所以你認為可能這個還要再做一個進一步的分析嘛是不是你的意思是這樣"},{"start":11367.272,"end":11395.544,"text":"詐數是否存在還是必須要由個案去判斷不管是積極的使用詐數或者是消極不為而使人誤認都有可能構成或不構成的話還是要個案去看好那我接著再問你如果說他這樣子的一個連署行為就是法律已經明確規定了你不得為二階的連署人如果他還去連署請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還無效違反法律的禁止規定應該講的"},{"start":11397.917,"end":11422.848,"text":"正如同說這個是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講其實相類似的比如說像股東會也有一些召開的一些強行禁止規定那有可能是造成股東會自始不成立無效或者是得撤銷那相同的在選罷法81條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下到底這樣的法律效果是如何的話可能還是要由主管機關來去做一個解釋這邊我們這邊就"},{"start":11424.79,"end":11440.371,"text":"相對的就是可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上那跟委員另外報告的是有關於這個刑法的214條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分那當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件"},{"start":11440.871,"end":11463.878,"text":"但是使公務員登載不實的部分的話我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務的話就比較不會該當於本罪所以在探討81條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務來去判斷是不是有公務員使公務員登載不實的一個罪責可能性"},{"start":11464.338,"end":11490.009,"text":"好 OK這當然是我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷說到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫去偽造文書或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關的問題所以這個重複聯署牽涉到的刑法的問題就是他可能是偽造文書他可能違反個人資料保護法因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份的聯署書"},{"start":11492.35,"end":11516.202,"text":"或者明知這個是第一階段我已經簽過二階不能再去連署他還去連署所以這個疑問是非常大的我想法務部也要去正視這個問題檢調要去介入我想這個部分我會去提告也希望檢調要積極地去調查到底有沒有偽造歸宿因為分數非常的多高達總分數的五分之一之多這麼多"},{"start":11518.403,"end":11526.045,"text":"這個一定要積極地去調查去申辦有沒有偽造文書有沒有違反個人資料保護法以上 謝謝好 謝謝林世民委員諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請我們現在可以開始發便當大家有需要可以享用"},{"start":11543.537,"end":11548.981,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請兩位部長,衛福部跟財政部"},{"start":11557.876,"end":11584.276,"text":"是 兩位部長早我想今天大家所有委員都很關心吸菸有害健康但是在國內它的確是一個產業它也是一個消費品加熱菸的問題今天大家都提了很多我想問兩位部長其實我們都知道很多的國人都在使用加熱菸對吧那國內是沒有合法的加熱菸那現在國人在使用的都是什麼菸都是走私來的對吧"},{"start":11588.647,"end":11614.826,"text":"是不是基本上是吧現在只要你看到在用加熱煙的人他就是走私來的現在走私依照財政部委託曾居樂教授的研究報告他裡面是說如果按照他的實際推估的話走私的煙品大概是從100萬到400萬用其他推估方式甚至高達1500萬"},{"start":11617.506,"end":11642.971,"text":"有沒有這麼多的走私的驗品啊財政不知道嗎我們跟委員報告當然這個部分我們在報告裡面寫到你們光抓到一百一十三年就抓到兩百三十萬包了嗎加熱菸對是加熱菸當然電子驗更不要講電子驗在煙海法治法完全是禁止的所以加熱菸它不禁止但是要審查所以現在問題是雖然"},{"start":11645.814,"end":11672.428,"text":"目前還沒有合法但是隨處可見走私猖獗查緝有但查緝的結果是讓很多人還是人手一樣人手一包啊所以兩位部長我們的問題在哪裡你們認為在哪裡認為我們的問題是出在衛福部的審查從一年到兩年到今天沒有進度對吧"},{"start":11674.437,"end":11685.062,"text":"邱部長,我覺得你已經回答很多了,很多委員都說了,到底問題出在哪裡?依據兩年前得審查的辦法,當時就設立審查的委員跟相關的辦法,那就請業者送上來。行政程序法有規定,我送給你,兩個月之內你要做處分。"},{"start":11697.428,"end":11722.771,"text":"那我們不主憤 一直擺著一年兩年 這跟行政程序法也不合嘛第三個就是 我們到底要管還是不要管啊我們知道它在 它存在 每個人都在用 但是我們不管而且走私一堆 抓到很多 然後審查很久這就是一個 該管不管 所以又坐視它這樣然後又去抓它違法 這個國家太矛盾了"},{"start":11724.193,"end":11743.428,"text":"報告委員這個我早上已經講過幾次這些問題我們政府會來解決它政府會來解決已經兩年了不是現在才解決我希望在你的任內今年要有個解決啦這個聽起來很可笑我們要管但是我們管不了但是大家都在用那我也抓不完"},{"start":11744.465,"end":11763.485,"text":"我們政府應該來解決這些問題他存在 不關我的事我只要求一個沒有人要因為要求你不開放就讓你放水我覺得不能放水但是你的速度也太慢了第三最重要的是嚴審之後就是納管"},{"start":11764.326,"end":11785.437,"text":"真的所謂的違法不合法的沒有經過相關審查通過的加強查緝該抓就抓重罰才有辦法讓合法的業者可以正常的生存不要都是靠走私然後每個人都知道那是走私的每個人都知道是從機場偷偷帶回來的機場也在抓但是"},{"start":11786.377,"end":11795.528,"text":"又很普遍的生活在我們的旁邊這很奇怪啦這太奇怪了所以我覺得這個問題是衛福部的問題還是財政部的問題衛福部你趕快合法他就趕快收錢啦不然我告訴你光現在走私的數量我們一年稅損達到13億啊"},{"start":11807.213,"end":11835.62,"text":"一塊錢也收不到啊好嗎 該怎麼做就要怎麼做吧不管你的時間怎麼樣 不能放水不能放水 但是不要再拖了合法就合法 不合法就不合法弄得現在大家確身不明沒有人知道發生什麼事然後每個人都在使用這實在太奇怪了好 第二個問題是在我們去年七月的時候說賴總統的政見是百億癌症新藥基金"},{"start":11837.045,"end":11852.772,"text":"我們今年編了50億的公務預算進入健保基金 接下去還要再補50億到100億然後去年的這個時候健保署的石崇良署長說要科冤"},{"start":11854.332,"end":11877.362,"text":"9捐來挹注相關的所謂的百億基金有沒有這回事沒有這回事那都是演繹而已啦演繹所以到今天為止我想建模署很用心在想各種方式來增加財源所以9捐不是衛福部的立場沒有我們沒有這種立場好那財政部我們有菸捐我們有沒有打算剋剋9捐呢"},{"start":11878.611,"end":11903.497,"text":"目前并没有这样的规划所以这个真的是不要乱说话啦如果没有就说没有另外我要问的是卫福部还有一个比较更奇怪的事情就是110年监察院对行政院纠正要求处理所谓的槟榔危害防治槟榔危害防治在卫福部12月已经完成预告草案"},{"start":11904.657,"end":11917.468,"text":"限制檳榔的銷售管道不可以賣給兒童跟青少年然後限制場域還有建立原料的檢驗機制這個法案草案過來以後目前的進度是怎麼樣部長你們暫緩了是嗎"},{"start":11922.096,"end":11940.046,"text":"沒有戰法 我們因為這牽涉到因為有人抗議了嘛所以必須要做好妥善的溝通社會溝通是一個我們政府必須要做的事情我同意但是推動戰法案也是一個要做的事檳榔人害防治是不是衛福部的重要政策"},{"start":11941.107,"end":11956.353,"text":"當然是重要政策是 會繼續推嗎一定會繼續推一定會繼續推因為監察院監察委員趙詠卿說如果你們不處理他不排除彈劾所以這件事情我覺得很重要啦如果我們對於煙要管對於酒要管"},{"start":11958.594,"end":11981.295,"text":"對於檳榔的危害 國人因為檳榔的危害口腔癌還是居高不下我們清洗再進行好不好 部長 如果是你的政策我覺得就要勇敢的推下去是的當然要解決業者他們碰到的困難但是不等於你要把他停下來否則 我是認為監察院已經說明了他不彈劾你就是他不對啊"},{"start":11982.142,"end":11999.705,"text":"好最後一個小問題就是這也不是小問題很大的問題我在這邊已經問了部長兩位部長多次了房地合一稅我們當時是要做居住正義用的但是97%都拿來做了長照這很奇怪"},{"start":12001.193,"end":12022.088,"text":"莊部長依規定 沒有規定啦後來你是被逼著要求說至少要給居住正義10%但是到現在也只撥了8.9%啊很少啊所以我要問的是邱部長你的長照現在是依靠所謂的移政稅 延稅"},{"start":12025.106,"end":12049.343,"text":"還有剛剛講的房地合一稅長照的金額一年已經高達900多億了房地合一稅是機會稅如果現在房地交易不多的話它可能會有來源的問題第二個 菸捐菸稅我們不希望它太多啊一證稅也是靠運氣靠機會所以台灣民眾黨已經提出了長照保險法"},{"start":12050.363,"end":12066.71,"text":"長照保險法就類似健保我們希望每個人現在出一點照顧未來的自己長照保險對於行政院來說對於衛福部來說你們完全靠這些不確定的稅額其實長照"},{"start":12068.431,"end":12096.29,"text":"的資金其實長期來說我們擔心它的不穩定性邱部長你對長照保險有沒有想法我問過你你去過日本考察也在議事公會這邊舉辦過相關的座談會所以部長我想問問你對長照保險接下來這個財源不是那麼穩定的情況下衛福部打算怎麼在長照以後3.0以後要不要退長照保險法"},{"start":12097.404,"end":12108.236,"text":"報告委員我分兩點報告第一個就是說113年底長照基金還有2039億元現在還夠以後可能就不一定夠我們今年的1月到5月收入就341億元所以現在目前來講還是可以支應"},{"start":12116.986,"end":12133.134,"text":"那至於說任何一個財務的規劃我覺得我們是必須要去考慮到利弊得失現在有荷蘭有德國有日本可以讓你抄啊我覺得這些政策至少部長我覺得要有態度啦方向我想財務的規劃政府應該負責任的讓它穩定"},{"start":12144.52,"end":12158.779,"text":"所以要人民自己出一點大家一起出一點政府出一點才有辦法真正做到長治久安因為現在每年靠這些稅900多億 900多億是砸在水裡面"},{"start":12159.58,"end":12180.215,"text":"就不見了 就不見了而且長照3.0對於中重症要加強照顧現在的長照2.0對於中重症沒有辦法做好完整的照顧各位 3.0這個部分都會加強是 所以我要說的是部長應該對於長照保是不是將來要推長照保險要有一些想法"},{"start":12181.069,"end":12206.839,"text":"日本、荷蘭跟德國其實都有很完善的長照保險長照保險在國民黨的智庫做的民調77.3%的民眾也都支持我相信這個是在野黨大力推展的你將來也會面對這個政策要不要來處理我們推了主權基金現在行政院也願意推我們現在推長照保險我相信將來"},{"start":12208.34,"end":12219.515,"text":"不管是行政院或者是衛福部也會面對在野黨提出來行政院必須要的態度跟目標跟方向我希望部長你至少給我一個"},{"start":12221.192,"end":12241.643,"text":"你們可以去演繹你們對於這個的態度你不一定要有具體的內容但是你要告訴我說接下來去長照3.0的內容跟將來長照保險長期的規劃是一個長治久安一二十年的計畫報告委員長照3.0的不管是它的內容跟財務我們都有做頭上的評估"},{"start":12242.603,"end":12258.668,"text":"那至於說長照到底是稅收或者是由社會保險其實國際間大部分的國家還是稅收少部分採社會保險那日本開辦長照保險其實還是公務預算要撥半數以上"},{"start":12259.428,"end":12263.49,"text":"所以政府要出來就跟健保一樣當學者在談論一個事情的時候好像很簡單說這樣看起來比較好可是當我們在想的時候就要看到人民的反應譬如說你們要年輕人所以要討論我也沒有意見我也沒有定見我只是說部長我們要不要有態度這個態度可能是希望你一個月給我一個書面的回答我們會書面回答"},{"start":12287.101,"end":12294.667,"text":"對高人化的社會 我們的照顧絕對是更多我們一起來努力好 那我等你的書面回覆好 下一位請往事監委員質詢謝謝主席 我請財政部中部長財政部中部長"},{"start":12319.232,"end":12340.55,"text":"委員好部長我還是前幾天的這個問題就是說為什麼民眾實際支出生育的手術費那麼他可否抵稅還要取決於說這個診所是不是報稅完備是不是會計紀錄完備"},{"start":12348.322,"end":12371.519,"text":"為什麼啦 為什麼 我前幾天就在講說我們就講我們國家的生育率我們台灣已經躍升為全世界生育率最低的國家欸我們四月份生不到一萬人 八千六百人 比去年同期少了二十趴"},{"start":12372.847,"end":12393.179,"text":"我們平均每一位國人的女性同胞平均生育0.8位這已經低於日本那麼低生育率的日本喔他1.3位我們0.8位所以現在生育率過低"},{"start":12394.622,"end":12409.892,"text":"已經是我們的國安問題啦也就是說提高生育率是我們國家政策也是各部會機關大家應該積極配合去促成的結果 欸 衛福部"},{"start":12414.98,"end":12425.713,"text":"人家國建署 各單位 教育部 他們都大家在配合宣導 在鼓勵獨獨財政部 我不懂為什麼啦 那也就是說"},{"start":12433.499,"end":12447.959,"text":"你們財政部用我不給你抵稅用這個來逼生育的國人同胞逼他們去幫財政部查稅查看看這個診所"},{"start":12450.462,"end":12473.041,"text":"這家醫院是不是報稅紀錄完備這很奇怪該查診所或醫院是不是有完整的會計紀錄完整的報稅這個是財政部的職責但是不能便於形式不是嗎你財政部竟然駕馭"},{"start":12475.27,"end":12503.878,"text":"各個機關部會幫你們去查稅又不能抵稅用懲罰民眾來達成你們的目的這很奇怪難道我前幾天質詢之後你給我的公文答覆我才發現欸糟糕還更慘你答覆我裡面你自己還從實招來你說去年啊四月份你們就發文給衛福部說你們還進一步說"},{"start":12505.307,"end":12531.733,"text":"人工生殖補助方案應該限縮在你們財政部要求的要會計記錄完備的診所天啊天啊還好還好當時衛福部的答覆很好衛福部說縮小補助範圍會影響民眾就醫的可敬信他用這個把你拒絕掉啊他們是正確的"},{"start":12535.066,"end":12551.791,"text":"而且人工生殖補助啊這個診所是不是合格合規這是國健署他們去合格 他們針對醫療專業去看這個醫師技術夠不夠水準是不是達到 設備規模是不是可以他們就專業的評估去通過的"},{"start":12562.864,"end":12583.583,"text":"而且人工生育的補助本來就健保沒有這一部分嘛他是要自費那自費當然人家民眾自然是自費他就針對隱私性跟就醫的方便性民眾當然會選擇自費診所嘛"},{"start":12586.582,"end":12597.736,"text":"所以對於自費診所或者醫院他是不是報稅紀錄完備財政部應該自己去查查就如同"},{"start":12599.028,"end":12626.547,"text":"就如同財政部現在我們針對民眾你如果租屋 租金你可以來抵稅報這個你要求的也只是說你那個租金是不是你實質有租金的支出的這個憑證這樣就好嘛你會去要求說你要提出你的房東他報稅紀錄是否完備嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":12627.452,"end":12649.65,"text":"不是嗎所以我不懂我不懂那個部長我到現在一直不懂你們為什麼這麼執著這一點啦要獎勵我們國人同胞要獎勵大家聲譽這個是國安問題國家的政策我希望你能夠配合而且喔部長我"},{"start":12654.793,"end":12680.574,"text":"看你這一年多來吼我的看法 我認為你確實你是奉公守法啦但是奉公守法只是部長們 只是官員們你們該做的第一步而已耶那如果我看你這一年多來的表現我八個字形容你是莫守成規 便宜行事不是這樣嗎"},{"start":12681.912,"end":12703.228,"text":"我一再的 一再多次質詢裡面我一再的說希望財政部在你的領導下能夠四個字 與時俱進各項的稅法我們該用綠色稅制的就用綠色稅制不合一的娛樂稅"},{"start":12707.192,"end":12719.064,"text":"這個印花稅包括昨天我們討論半天那個小家電那個近乎擾民我們列舉了這些小家電一年這個貨物稅收11億"},{"start":12721.52,"end":12737.851,"text":"結果不但擾民過去我們要收的部分是因為說這些小家電是奢侈品現在時代這麼進步啦這些小家電是家家戶戶必備的結果昨天討論了半天 一樣"},{"start":12739.754,"end":12756.893,"text":"你確實是規規矩矩的你就是死不讓步昨天討論了一整天半天十億多我們大概好像只減了三千多萬你真的這個部分我希望"},{"start":12759.448,"end":12782.369,"text":"能夠與時俱進十一億元去擾民我們一年收入是國家稅收是三兆一千億耶天啊那連尾數的尾數的尾數好不好我希望你四個字與時俱進然後我今天繼續質詢你的這件事情就是說"},{"start":12785.037,"end":12813.087,"text":"這個診所是不是報稅紀錄完備這個不應該列為我們民眾生育支出那麼去抵稅不應該列為這個裡面的條件可不可以不鼓勵都來不及了嘛好不好謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分的生育跟因為他是跟醫療是一起在裡面的所以他有一定的一個"},{"start":12813.905,"end":12815.29,"text":"部分的處理是"},{"start":12817.223,"end":12845.498,"text":"那你我希望你還是給我答覆啦你不能推給說啊這個法令啊這個什麼法令你可以財政部一天到晚自己主動提出修法的太多啦你們主動提出由行政院提出來這個很簡單就解決啦好不好我希望你重新給我一份答覆好謝謝委員謝謝你請你請回抱歉時間在我請那個衛福部邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":12848.803,"end":12871.136,"text":"那個 吳院長邱部長兩個問題第一個問題就是說最近啦 這個毒品氮濫透過電子菸那麼更滲入到青少年朋友尤其有一種新的這個伊朵米子就是喪屍煙彈那這個部分我們"},{"start":12875.27,"end":12888,"text":"教育部統計我們高中職學生我們以112學年度來講558000位那麼國健署也有統計說大概大概初高中生有6.3%那會使用這個電子菸"},{"start":12892.503,"end":12915.53,"text":"那電子煙我們現在嚴禁因為它的煙油裡面會參入這一些會毒害青少年朋友的所以如果照6.3%55萬8千位光高中職生喔那應該會有3.5萬極可能使用電子煙的我們的青年朋友但是"},{"start":12917.571,"end":12927.739,"text":"我查了一下你們兩年來衛福部中央跟地方衛生局我們所查獲開立處分數的這1021件我認為這個比例過低我們已是會使用電子菸這個數字已經是少估"},{"start":12939.227,"end":12959.515,"text":"然後你兩年只查緝一千零二十一件我認為這個查緝不夠徹底所以我希望在這個部分可以加強可不可以因為你像菸娟啊我們收了兩百六十四億那你有九成用在我們醫療保健這是對的但是"},{"start":12961.104,"end":12985.701,"text":"用在要對青少年朋友的這個宣導的部分我認為應該提升也就是說我們要進校園去宣導而且要加強查緝好不好你要通令各市政府各地方政府衛生局請他們大家一起通令"},{"start":12986.161,"end":12990.365,"text":"合作 是的 我們中央金融會一起努力謝謝王國英的諮詢好 下一位請葉元哲 王國英諮詢 請麻煩請衛福部長那就不上去"},{"start":13013.745,"end":13036.527,"text":"反映一個基層的醫療現象最近有民眾他為了要買一個眼藥水去社區藥局大概跑了十家才買到那我不知道部長你有沒有掌握現在真的很多民眾去藥局買處方簽的就領處方簽的藥很難說第一家就有啦都要跑好幾家其實這個造成民眾很大的一個"},{"start":13037.828,"end":13046.935,"text":"負擔那有的時候想說那乾脆去醫院靈好了醫院沒有缺藥但是社區藥局缺處方藥的狀況非常嚴重部長知道嗎"},{"start":13049.84,"end":13073.486,"text":"這個當然我們一直這幾年來都在觀察這個現象觀察你要解決這個現象部長我跟你講因為我們也是有去詢問一下社區藥局為什麼會出現這種情況因為你只有觀察我也有去了解他們的講法是說第一個這些藥可能醫院有但是配額的問題所以醫院沒問題但是配到社區藥局就不夠了這是第一個問題是的"},{"start":13075.146,"end":13098.846,"text":"所以其實是建議說是不是可以適當的讓社區藥局也能夠有足夠的藥那當然還有其他的原因啦譬如說現在社區藥局他們要買藥有的藥商都會訂一個低銷啦說你要跟我買藥就是要比如說一萬塊他本來買藥可能只要買三千塊但是為了要買那三千塊的藥另外再湊七千塊"},{"start":13099.887,"end":13117.793,"text":"那7000塊的藥也許他本來就有庫存他就先買來放著那放久了也有可能如果沒有人去買的話就過期了所以會降低一些他們去買藥的意願還有一個是因為現在藥商賣藥都是整裝嘛比如說一次就賣個500顆可是有人去領處方籤藥可能一次只需要28顆啊"},{"start":13123.075,"end":13140.992,"text":"他為了這28顆就買500顆然後買500顆如果他剩下的400多顆沒有人來領的話他就全部都血本無歸啊所以現在的社區藥局其實在經營上面有遇到很大的困難是的特別是回到第一點就是那個缺藥的問題我希望說部長可以"},{"start":13141.693,"end":13161.728,"text":"你真的去了解一下啦因為我覺得這不是幫社區藥局發聲其實這是為基層民眾發聲我們要讓民眾在很便利的狀況底下在藥局都可以領到藥嘛而不是說好像不曉得說要去哪裡跑來跑去跑去都領不到我覺得這是一個很大的困擾部長你有辦法去"},{"start":13162.609,"end":13180.718,"text":"去解決這個問題嗎謝謝委員也謝謝委員真的是了解到他們社區藥局碰到的問題這些問題我們都清楚因為他也牽涉到自己本身大小藥局還有現在聯手藥局也很多那真的是社區藥局"},{"start":13182.979,"end":13208.694,"text":"他的購買力真的是比較低那我們很希望啦如果你站在醫療院所常常在反應說我現在開除了結果那個藥劑而已甚至比較少的藥領不到這個也造成不方便所以這樣一定要來解決這個問題那現在目前碰到的問題以及解決的方式是不是讓我請食藥署王副署長簡單的跟"},{"start":13210.215,"end":13236.868,"text":"副委員報告一下簡單講一下是委員好其實針對這個部分我們在去年就已經跟這個藥食公會全聯會有合作目前在食藥署的網站上我們有建置一個藥品供應資訊平台那透過這個平台我們目前跟國內的藥品中盤商大概12個中盤商都有做連線合作所以如果個別的社區藥局他對於購買藥品像有剛委員有提到數量少或者這個藥商不願意供應這個狀況那他可以透過這12個中盤商去查詢他個別的庫存"},{"start":13237.788,"end":13247.498,"text":"那上面也有他們個別可以聯絡購買的方式希望透過這種方式能夠解決剛剛委員所說部長我跟你講齁你剛剛講說你這個機制去年提出來的嘛"},{"start":13248.5,"end":13276.556,"text":"已經在執行了在執行的嘛但我告訴你我了解的是最近的狀況嘛所以代表你的機制跟執行有落差嘛那我實際上我也有之前我也有詢問過部長有關於缺藥問題部長是說我們有個缺藥平台嘛所以我也是有問那個社區藥局說啊你們都沒有去缺藥平台登錄嗎他們回答說登錄啊啊就只是登錄啊沒有回應啊比如說他登錄缺什麼藥那衛福部確實會去跟藥商詢問但是藥商跟衛福部報的數量"},{"start":13277.436,"end":13297.373,"text":"人家還是買不到啊就買不到就是買不到啊所以導致一種情形是社區藥局到後面是連登錄都懶得登錄啦因為覺得不會有回應所以連登錄都懶得登錄因此你衛福部你掌握實際狀況跟基層實際狀況有很大的落差因為你的機制跟系統不被信任"},{"start":13298.214,"end":13320.621,"text":"所以我覺得其實你如果真心的要去了解狀況的話你可以趕快去你可以去幾個社區藥局問問看嘛不見得都跟全聯會去調查一下他們會跟你講因為我跑幾家講的差不多都是一樣的問題你會聽到很真實的聲音但前提就是我覺得不是說只了解要趕快解決因為這真的是解決民眾的問題我們馬上去理解好不好馬上去理解"},{"start":13325.602,"end":13327.863,"text":"主席麻煩我們的邱部長邱部長請委員好"},{"start":13354.532,"end":13354.673,"text":"邱部長"},{"start":13359.127,"end":13386.565,"text":"因為整體的煙害防治法的主管機關還是在衛福部而且上個月衛福部也跨部會召開了電子煙品的那個查緝平台部長最近有很多聲音都說電子煙抓不完危害反而也沒這麼大乾脆就開放算了所以我想問清楚全面禁止電子煙還是不是我們國家政策會不會鬆動"},{"start":13389.026,"end":13414.157,"text":"為什麼要這樣問呢因為昨天BBC才報導說像英國也開放收緊電子菸管制因為各國的經驗都顯示電子菸便宜好買很容易吸引青少年那一旦習慣了後果就很難處理尤其是法規不清執法不立的情況下這些東西根本就是藏在社區裡面甚至變成藥物濫用的入口所以部長你覺得台灣的青少年"},{"start":13415.18,"end":13418.417,"text":"現在到底好不好能夠容易買得到電子煙啊"},{"start":13420.407,"end":13444.455,"text":"部長你覺得他們真的知道這些電子煙是違法的嗎因為電子煙我們是沒有規劃有任何開放的方向可是有社工告訴我們有少年甚至拿著煙害防治法跟他們說裡面又沒有寫電子煙違法我知道法裡面那現在都叫做類煙品的原因那當然"},{"start":13444.955,"end":13474.057,"text":"社會大眾尤其青少年對這塊的理解還是不夠清楚這要麻煩部會宣傳你一定要趕快補上讓大家知道否則他拿著說沒有啊今天又沒有講說電子菸事實上是違法的不然今天要討論的事實上是茶氣那我就要讓你知道現在很多青少年不是只買電子菸那還被拉進銷售鏈裡面變成中間人可以看到這流程圖就知道今天照片事實上是青少年實際跟社工分享的"},{"start":13474.417,"end":13497.085,"text":"他們透過LINE IG TRADE聊天的群組裡面接觸到電子業還被上游廠商用代理利潤發放這邊寫得很清楚代理利潤發放是想每個月賺點零用錢的夥伴們說巴士我來教學你然後銷售技巧品牌的認定全管事實上是代理的是正品這樣子的一個"},{"start":13499.506,"end":13527.423,"text":"找下限的方式來層層分類所以我想問部長這樣的行為是不是已經違法 陰害防治法第32條販售最高可罰到100萬另外如果在這群組裡面招募的訊息是不是也違反了第31條要罰20萬所以部長在這裡針對這些案例來清楚說明那現在到底我們青少年有沒有意識到這樣子的違法跟相關的裁處的額度"},{"start":13528.283,"end":13543.717,"text":"看起來我覺得是沒有 因為為什麼他們都認為事實上這樣是可以去販賣的那他們現在也在做人家的下線那部長 以貨溯源是你們上個月衛福部電子菸茶器平台的重要議題那這兩張圖"},{"start":13546.079,"end":13568.022,"text":"我想部長看得很清楚 這就是青少年當下線的時候拿上游廠商的圖在宣傳 宣傳什麼呢貨源穩定 出貨包貨 忙到手軟 這不是個案是不同的縣市社工都跟我分享類似的訊息這是一個地下行銷鏈的現象 所以"},{"start":13568.683,"end":13592.802,"text":"部長我們如果比對國外的話台灣銷售電子菸的價格其實不高如同這張青少年分享的廣告貨源非常的充足最新型號一應俱全青少年甚至跟我們的社工分享說他覺得不好賺為什麼因為利潤低而進貨簡單這表示走私成本非常的低然後進貨難度非常的小所以青少年不只是能買"},{"start":13593.843,"end":13615.208,"text":"還能賣 甚至實體店面也買得到所以問部長 我們現在的查緝系統到底有沒有辦法追到這些貨源我說我剛剛講 你剛剛前面你們自己上個月開會的時候就說要與貨溯源所以想問一下說因為能不能對應這種聊天式的分享的內容分散式的地下交易"},{"start":13616.818,"end":13623.981,"text":"報告委員 我想我剛剛看到你這兩三張powerpoint呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦呦"},{"start":13646.85,"end":13670.836,"text":"專家寫者共同來電子煙查緝平台的會議由各方面來處理 從研討 換售及民眾啟用我們一定要沒有落實的 我們一定馬上再落實道義師 稍微給我一點點時間好 等我一下那像這種未成年在聊天室下廣告當下線所以部長有沒有實際的裁罰的數量有沒有裁罰的數量"},{"start":13675.681,"end":13701.291,"text":"跟委員報告一下那這個部分的話我目前沒有分出來的確是在提供會後是不是在提供還有我覺得還是要看一看因為現在是現場的老師跟社工都不知道怎麼處理因為為什麼未成年販售使用電子鹽都在問政府單位說家長這些到底要怎麼應對所以我也希望這個麻煩我覺得衛福部這邊是不是可以幫我"},{"start":13702.151,"end":13726.298,"text":"提供相關的處理的機制讓學校的社工讓學校的老師跟社工知道你們的處理機制是什麼所以我希望衛福部一個月內提供我這兩項就衛生年販售電子菸的地下經濟應對的策略跟適用法規還有關西人跟校園處理電子菸的流程指引一個月內好沒問題我們一定會來提供好謝謝李國恩的諮詢下面請王立民的諮詢請"},{"start":13737.625,"end":13742.128,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請衛福部部長衛福部長,WHO今年再度示警,青少年吸食電子煙成癮氾濫的問題其實是非常嚴重"},{"start":13758.869,"end":13786.472,"text":"這個它統計全球大概有3700萬的青少年吸食菸品電子菸瀏覽超過34億次然後許多國家的青少年電子菸吸食率高於成年人那在國內我們看到無論是高中生或者是國中生他們吸食電子菸的比例也都是呈現上升的一個情況但是衛福部查緝非法的網站只罰了7件"},{"start":13787.292,"end":13796.841,"text":"總金額一千零四十萬為什麼這麼多非法的電子菸在網路上面販售我們現在只罰了七件我想划的一個數目是不是請吳署長這邊報告一下"},{"start":13807.413,"end":13829.226,"text":"來 署長請說跟委員報告那我們的確看到如委員所示的狀況所以呢我們這兩年裡面來講從稽查然後到追嚴到現在的裁處那其實所有的裁處從去年的去年底才開始有裁處的動作那現在的業者配合以今年度來講我們大概像相關"},{"start":13830.126,"end":13847.528,"text":"委員所呈現的這些數字的話已經獲得相當的改善尤其是今年度包括Google、Meta、Swede、旋轉平台各類的網路平台目前的話都配合我們相關的政策那主動的做類組管理還有我們通報以後下架跟前期解析的部分"},{"start":13847.708,"end":13866.98,"text":"我要求一些非法網站刊登電子煙你們一定要全力去阻斷不能讓青少年去接觸另外一個5月27號電子煙茶器平台已經成立了那各部會的分工為何我要請今天的法務部也上來法務部是不是你們的成員"},{"start":13868.181,"end":13884.959,"text":"法務部的主任檢察官是的沒有檢察官在非法查緝的這一塊來 法務部的代表你們在報告裡面說這個是我看到另外一個更嚴重的部分請法務部的代表來是哪一位是委員好"},{"start":13887.844,"end":13907.538,"text":"你們自己在報告裡面說有不肖的業者將新興毒品添加到電子煙油當中在夜店或社群跟年輕族群兜售這個其實是很嚴重的俗稱上頭煙睡眠煙彈喪失煙彈強害身心健康治具"},{"start":13908.619,"end":13926.122,"text":"這件事情我覺得這個比吸食電子鹽本身還要再更嚴重數百倍因為它已經是吸毒是犯法然後它添加在這裡面讓這一些年輕人吸食或是青少年吸食那這一部分法務部你的查緝行動是什麼"},{"start":13926.442,"end":13941.414,"text":"因為我看你通篇的報告你們查緝了多少這種添加毒品到電子煙油當中的這個你破獲了多少你們追查了多少在你的報告裡面通通都沒有提那你是不是可以告訴本席你們具體查獲的數字"},{"start":13949.586,"end":13976.697,"text":"報告委員就是有關這個新興毒品有加入這個電子菸裡面其實我們都有責稱台高檢署持續辦理安居專案你們破獲多少案件你告訴本席有關這個安居專案第12波的部分像是有關這個伊托米之類其實已經有查到300多公斤幾件 你講清楚一點幾件我們是以查獲毒品的重量來計算"},{"start":13978.601,"end":14005.198,"text":"查獲毒品我是說這個電子菸裡面參有毒品的人查獲多少數量電子菸的部分這個數據可能要再確認因為電子菸的部分原則上還是有衛福部在辦理我們主要是處理毒品所以我們是記辦毒品的部分這個就是我要點出的問題關於已經涉及毒品我覺得法務部的角色太被動你認為主辦還是衛福部但是這個其實是涉及到犯罪應該法務部的主動性角色要很強這個今天就是我要點出的問題"},{"start":14006.158,"end":14034.321,"text":"既然已經成立電子菸茶器平台那每一個部會應該都有主動性的角色而不是全部都是衛福部像這個已經涉及到犯罪這個去偵辦犯罪是你法務部你的職責啊不是去被動式的配合這個衛福部啊你應該要主動去偵辦的能力啊因為這一塊是跟毒品是整個連動在一起的那茶器毒品就是你法務部這個你的職責是所在所以這一塊啊我要求這個法務部"},{"start":14035.302,"end":14054.981,"text":"你們在這一塊你們應該要有一個專案好好的來查緝喔因為這個其實對於年輕人的危害真的是太重大了因為他是假冒成電子煙讓他不知情的情況去吸毒那這個其實是對於這個青少年或年輕人來講這個部分是真的很嚴重喔所以這個最後這個部長我要要求你們你們的這個電子煙查緝平台喔"},{"start":14060.026,"end":14085.215,"text":"立案是5月27號成立那各部會的這個責任要非常的明確我們有強化各任務分組然後那個主動性要出來而且你們定期的成效要跟外界來做報告這一個部分我希望你那個書面要給本席然後要定期公佈你們的成效在這一個部分我覺得啦就是查緝電子業不是只有衛福部啦"},{"start":14086.075,"end":14096.699,"text":"這個法務部也要動起來速發部也要動起來這個是每一個部會如果組成這樣的一個查緝平台大家都有主動性的責任大家一起來防治這個電子煙氾濫的問題好不好好 是的好 謝謝謝謝委員會的諮詢 下一位請國民財委的諮詢 請"},{"start":14107.811,"end":14109.953,"text":"長期以來對於老人的福利健康我是最關心的我們一直在推動"},{"start":14130.165,"end":14153.882,"text":"巴士量表可以不要造成大家的困擾所以80歲以上免巴士量表就可以來聘請外來來照顧來幫助一些年輕人以前有很多像花旗銀行的那個管理總很優秀後來他沒辦法我說你怎麼會離開職場呢他說他爸爸只有一個"},{"start":14155.117,"end":14173.836,"text":"所以找不到人他就自己跳下去照顧啊那麼好的人才對不對那金融他算是很棒的一個人就是這樣的一個例子請問部長免巴士量表這個什麼時候開始實施80歲以上免巴士量表應該是7月1號"},{"start":14178.726,"end":14200.563,"text":"企業底,勞動部有表達配套措施,在企業底能夠完成就可以開始了這也是一個得證,因為需要的人真的蠻多的希望多多可以加強輔導一下有需要的人不知道怎麼申請的,可以來輔導"},{"start":14201.604,"end":14225.854,"text":"或者是做一些宣傳宣傳一下我看到路上很多都寫一個紅布條大大的一條說全面禁止電子菸我看很多學校門口台北上端外面都有我看了很振奮我覺得那個布條要多貼可是問題貼了有沒有效果"},{"start":14226.943,"end":14233.246,"text":"應該有效果有效果那現在那個抓到抽電子菸的會怎麼處罰那要分他看他是看他是那個從源頭或者是分或者是販售或者是那個個人那當然我們都會按照法規的規定來抽電子菸會不會那個判刑"},{"start":14256.892,"end":14282.105,"text":"本身喔?對蛤?罰款嗎?罰款,請那一位先生來來,吳署長,吳署長我想在使用者使用者會怎麼樣?使用者的話就是最高罰一萬罰一萬塊?是加強宣導好不好?好,謝謝你說罰一萬,根本沒在罰啊有啦有啦我周邊所有人齁,我遇到的人從來沒有一個人被罰過蛤?"},{"start":14285.866,"end":14312.39,"text":"當然你會說因為我旁邊都沒有人抽電子菸啊沒有抽到沒被訪可是有一些人有抽特別是年輕人因為本席有接觸就是士農工商年輕朋友有辦很多活動他們也不講說他有抽啦我看他手上就握了一支然後嘴巴就偷偷這樣比一下比一下後來我才知道不是在吃口香糖是在抽電子菸"},{"start":14314.594,"end":14338.335,"text":"像這樣子你要怎麼抓電子煙電子煙其實禍國殃民請問部長我們一直說禁電子煙全台灣有多少支電子煙有多少人吃電子煙有多少根 那個好像可以重複抽"},{"start":14339.697,"end":14368.402,"text":"電子煙多少根喔請旁邊的那個有沒有統計知道你大概粗估有多少根電子煙它就是煙油加上一個載具那個煙油是可以替換載具可以重複使用抽的時候必須要有那個就叫載具啦就要有那一根嘛那一支電子煙全台灣有幾支電子煙這個沒有統計大概不知道那接著請財政部部長"},{"start":14371.104,"end":14398.255,"text":"部長,坊間到處都在賣啊那重點是還有一些人從國外、日本或者是香港進來的時候欸?海關他就帶進來了啊你們抓不抓?會被處罰?超過10根、超過100根你們做什麼樣的處罰?一根就會抓"},{"start":14398.922,"end":14416,"text":"一根就會抓 抓到會怎麼樣這個部分我們是不是請我們關務署署長來說明報告委員 加熱菸的部分它是因為現在都沒有通過健康風險評估所以我們是依照這個菸害防治法 移給地方的衛生局"},{"start":14416.772,"end":14439.022,"text":"那抓不抓抓那你從頭抓了多少目前電子菸的部分已經抓了47萬多條47萬多條47萬啊對 剛剛加熱菸的部分我更正一下這個數字很大耶加熱菸的部分47萬47萬是那我們一年大概一根電子菸多少錢"},{"start":14441.092,"end":14462.72,"text":"電子菸喔電子菸喔抱歉我不曉得我看很多人就是想辦法在國外買了以後帶回來賣啊那為什麼他會帶回來賣有利可圖啊就是他可能在國外甚至國外的免稅商店都有在販售他可能買一支一支大概多少錢要不要一百塊"},{"start":14471.677,"end":14483.366,"text":"一根起碼我覺得應該是一千塊以上不曉得對不對有沒有官員知道後面有人點頭一根多少錢那個戴口罩那位美女"},{"start":14487.018,"end":14506.19,"text":"這個各個國家賣的不太一樣那是以加熱煙的載具的話加熱煙的載具大概在800到1200電子煙的載具就比較便宜我猜對了你看大概1000電子煙的載具更便宜那他1000他帶回來在這個私底下這樣販售可以賺多少錢"},{"start":14508.905,"end":14526.639,"text":"以目前台灣的電子煙的那個載具在販售的話那從兩千塊到六千塊都有你看兩千六千所以他走私一根他賣一根就可以賺兩根啊這個利潤很高啊比去賣血還好賺"},{"start":14529.656,"end":14558.24,"text":"所以這個要從源頭看看怎麼樣如果是覺得說電子煙不好對下一代是一種強害是對我們的國民健康是有影響的大家要動起來特別麻煩莊部長那邊要好好處理一下平台你們要去好好整頓一下新加坡新加坡應該就沒有"},{"start":14559.708,"end":14586.896,"text":"嚴刑峻罰嘛七十八年吃口香腸你吐在路上馬上都被抓而且處罰嚴格所以接著請莊部長這部分麻煩你再想一下我現在那個其他人可以回去謝謝那部長我問一下現在的美國的關稅戰因為海關關稅這個都你管的現在情況到底怎麼樣"},{"start":14588.482,"end":14608.967,"text":"還有沒有在談 還是我們已經通過檢驗對等關稅的部分 行政院會有政府院長還有OTN他們在跟美國持續的而且密切的在溝通當中那上一次談是什麼時候 談的情況還好嗎"},{"start":14611.651,"end":14632.865,"text":"我想這個部分基於雙方的一個默契還不便對外說明那在適當時機的時候才會說明那談的時候你有沒有去參與過我想這個部分也不好在這邊說也是秘密喔秘密好多耶全國的民眾都不曉得秘密的答案是什麼我們就每天"},{"start":14635.246,"end":14651.339,"text":"整個待旦然後一些企業中小企業都不曉得怎麼辦是要等三個月過還是要折磨半年到一年通通不知道我想我們的談判小組一定會就國家整體的考量為國內以及產業爭取一個最大的利益對啊那問題是這些企業怎麼生存"},{"start":14664.066,"end":14688.316,"text":"其實大家都很苦,不曉得怎麼辦政府也提出了支持方案,我想在這個部分也編列了特別預算要在陳情大院這邊來做審議你們編預算他們都還沒領到啊因為預算還沒有過啊,特別預算一直還沒有審議過啊所有預算都這樣,大家一直在等那個一人領一萬的普發現金等到現在錢也還沒下來"},{"start":14690.539,"end":14700.743,"text":"我講你要動起來啦我們每個人都希望說政府要多多照顧去年稅收超徵5280億不是沒錢啊所以政府也編列了相關的預算做支持措施你出去有機會去吃一下魷魚羹跟那個炒米粉你知道現在一桌要多少錢一桌就是一碗羹加一碗炒米粉"},{"start":14720.205,"end":14739.329,"text":"以前我吃大概五六十塊 現在一百四十塊有空你去吃吃看所以一萬塊普發先進 還是有它的必要性通貨膨脹 物價飆漲 人民苦咖拜託部長也多講講好話多多動起來 謝謝好 謝謝羅明財委員的資訊下一位請 陳昭志委員資訊 請"},{"start":14748.783,"end":14751.831,"text":"謝謝主席 有請邱部長邱部長謝謝 麻煩邱部長"},{"start":14758.533,"end":14765.876,"text":"兩年前煙害防治法他修法了他把這個加熱菸納管也就是說加熱菸只要審查通過那就可以來合格在台灣上市使用可是修法已經過了兩年到目前為止還沒有任何一件審查案通過可是國健署今年初有講他說第一件這個加熱菸的健康風險評估在四月的時候會出爐"},{"start":14784.922,"end":14796.333,"text":"但是我們去查國建署的這個網站他所公布的進度目前為止所有都還在審查中請問國建署是受到壓力還是有意有意要拖延呢兩年多來沒有一件通過然後今年初四月會通過第一件"},{"start":14806.391,"end":14831.336,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問 因為大家很清楚 委員也是專家健康風險評估審查 我們是委員會 依法審查我們都尊重委員的專列以人民的健康為主我們講的是說那個期限可能到4月底那我們期待4月底能夠有一個答案當然是這樣的一個想法主長我只是想提醒 健康風險評估是科學啦"},{"start":14834.957,"end":14859.446,"text":"結果要不要公佈不要變成政治因為大家都心知肚明台灣現在很多人都在抽加熱菸立法院有好幾位委員在抽但其實這都是違法的那你這樣拖著結果是什麼樣讓人民無所適從你要合法的人守法的人他就在等結果可以抽就抽也許不能就不能但是你不守法變最大變最大"},{"start":14862.627,"end":14874.854,"text":"情況就是如此 加熱菸滿街 剛剛滿街跑 大家都 每個委員都提到了博定 我是要跟你說 你要抓一百個人 還可以抓啦如果有一百萬人要抓的話 你怎麼進行呢 博定所以要趕快公佈審查結果啊 不要拖啊什麼時候公佈結果呢"},{"start":14885.067,"end":14907.365,"text":"包委員 我想今天我一直在提過 這個審查我們是按照規定的 兩年前的辦法沒有啦 委員會我也參加一大票啊那審查這麼久了 兩年多你也知道說 這其實都要尊重你又不審查要價 你是審查價格 你是審查風險評估 這是科學啊科學多少證據就講出來啊 就是這樣啊"},{"start":14908.065,"end":14921.776,"text":"據我了解其實他們才看的真的是很多需要科學的根據那所以一直要業者一直在科學就科學就是說科學不要當政治處理加熱菸我覺得就是我在衛法院主委常常跟你講那句話"},{"start":14923.337,"end":14933.283,"text":"這個就像有一隻大象在房間裡嘛那個英文叫There is an elephant in the room嘛就是大家都視而不見大象那麼大 這樣當作沒看到當作沒有看到啊那根據煙害防止法其實合法的止煙都不可以在網路上販賣喔可是現在網路上你隨便Google都能買到違法未經政府允許的許可的加熱煙你看看 你看中間那個黃色的那個地方"},{"start":14949.434,"end":14961.773,"text":"賣家還宣稱 三天到貨品質保證 健康享受保定你就放任這個東西這樣放的嗎蓄意放水 還是你根本沒有能力處理你看廣告成這個樣子"},{"start":14963.823,"end":14990.1,"text":"報告委員 那個其實在過去我們妨礙到這個菸奶防治法的案件我們已經處理了四萬六千多件尤其在今年一百一十四年監測案件裡面下架啦 把它下架的有九十四%我只是跟你說 還很多啦所以你越不快 趕快處理這個事情你就拖越久嘛 等幾百萬人你就管不了我想這些問題我們有責任把它處理好我們也會負責任的來把它處理好"},{"start":14992.882,"end":15020.764,"text":"我們再說 加熱煙是可以有條件審查通過 電子煙是禁止的除了對這個健康是高風險的危害那也很容易放入毒品是不是例如易脫米子就是俗稱的喪屍的煙彈你去問任何一個第一線的員警他們都知道現在是氾濫成災但衛福部的預告的煙害防治法我要請大家聽清楚你只強調販售端跟製造端的規範卻沒有禁止持有"},{"start":15021.645,"end":15040.518,"text":"那你叫那第一線的警察無法查緝啊也沒辦法沒辦法沒辦法銷毀啊部長你如果不去禁止持有你要怎麼杜絕上市煙彈呢而且電子煙就是上市煙彈的載具嘛他是他的載具嘛你不從源頭著手那你這個法你怎麼杜絕呢"},{"start":15041.078,"end":15059.271,"text":"我們當然有從源頭還有換賣抓到以後以前地方政府在抓的時候他們最大的問題是沒辦法我們就講這個 禁止持有你要不要禁止持有你只有製造跟販售端嘛要禁止持有你這個沒有列入你的修法裡面嘛"},{"start":15059.571,"end":15065.635,"text":"趕快改 趕快改 跟委員報告一下我們有列入新的修法的內容我們新的修法 我們新的修法會處理這一個問題拜託中部長您上來就是說現在糖 台北總統一直在講說這個健康台灣 糖對人體有很大的危害肥胖 糖尿病 心血管病 脂肪肝 痛風等等那這個糖尿病 尤其糖尿病是在前十大死因之一 已經很多年了"},{"start":15089.392,"end":15102.772,"text":"我要告訴他糖尿病大家都不知道糖尿病病人罹患癌症有10%到25%罹患癌症病人當中有10%到25%是有糖尿病的這個糖的部分的管理對家庭的經濟健保的負擔都很重我現在請教莊部長莊部長您對糖稅"},{"start":15105.916,"end":15109.52,"text":"您對唐穗的見解如何?目前沒有這樣的規劃沒有這樣的規劃?邱部長你也沒有這樣的規劃嗎?"},{"start":15123.414,"end":15134.447,"text":"你也沒有這樣規劃嗎 邱部長也沒有嗎不是說健保沒錢嗎關心糖尿病 關心身體健康要多元化來照顧那我們當然可以鼓勵大家吃糖的飲料"},{"start":15155.215,"end":15156.457,"text":"麻煩請邱部長邱部長邱部長"},{"start":15164.681,"end":15177.629,"text":"市區部長好我想就是從我們2009年調整菸品健康福利捐之後呢其實到現在已經有16年都沒有再調整健康福利捐那麼針對這個要不要調整的問題其實現社會上也有一些意見就是說為什麼這麼多年來這麼多年了都沒有再調整我們現在的健康福利捐是每包20元也就是說這20元的價格已經是16年沒調"},{"start":15193.779,"end":15216.983,"text":"請問一下衛福部有沒有考慮要調整報告委員我想這個是有一個要不要調整這是一個審議會那會兩年再開一次會會做一個建議所以你們這兩年開一次會所以代表你們有八次的審議委員會都認為不需要再調整是嗎是不是我請國界署吳司長跟委員報告一下"},{"start":15217.998,"end":15232.866,"text":"好 麻煩很快謝謝委員我們兩年請這個專家評估一次那召開審議委員會以後提出建議那由這個外部跨部會跟財政部等相關單位要再召開委員會來決定要不要調整"},{"start":15233.066,"end":15240.008,"text":"好 了解 我跟你講主要是因為在WHO的建議是這個健康捐收達到75%但是我們現在的健康捐的比例呢只是54%健康捐跟菸稅加起來54%所以事實上是還有調整的空間那當然這個議題主要是涉及到就是我們看到我們目前的"},{"start":15256.152,"end":15266.076,"text":"健康捐另一年健康捐的收入是一直下滑這當然有一種比較好的說法就是因為可能衛福部這邊推動煙品 煙害防治有成效但是另外一個情況有可能現在就是吸煙草的煙"},{"start":15277.301,"end":15301.551,"text":"的消費族群全部都去轉到去抽加熱煙或者是電子煙所以這也是這個有這樣子的一個情況那麼因此對於這個煙圈的下滑的這個部分那當然本席這邊會認為說既然我們煙圈收入逐漸下降所以對於目前所分配的項目是不是應該有所調整呢"},{"start":15302.853,"end":15314.917,"text":"是對 我想我們就是剛剛吳市長有報告我們由兩年一次的專家寫者開會以後來再經過委員會來討論不是 我現在不是講菸捐調整 而是說菸捐的分配用途任何的建議我們都會列入來討論好 我們來看一下因為你們現在菸捐分配的用途的話這個我們在112年的時候曾經有修過菸捐的使用用途的這個分配辦法"},{"start":15325.14,"end":15354.141,"text":"那麼但是呢本席有發現依照你們自己的菸捐分配用途的這個執行計畫裡面我們有看到有一些費用有一些這個這些這個錢事實上應該是可以用公務預算來編列的譬如說像是疫苗基金有關於疫苗的部分疫苗基金有補助然後或是我們透過菸捐去補貼購買一些疫苗那這些疫苗的部分事實上它本來也是可以透過"},{"start":15356.062,"end":15374.282,"text":"這個公務預算來編列的那因為這會產生一個排擠效應雖然我們現在對於這個罕見疾病的防治的經費可能也有所不足現在過去大家常常講說我們是不是應該多挹注在罕見疾病的這個醫療上面那麼因此像這個部分的話是不是衛福部應該要去檢討有關於菸菌挹注的"},{"start":15377.541,"end":15386.345,"text":"這個可以來檢討 項目可以來檢討不過我跟委員報告一下我們對罕病的照顧我們是增加今年增加了20億原來的健保總部變之下增加了20億的公務預算來照顧罕病所以我們對罕病也是很重視那至於這裡面的一個項目我們都可以大家來研議"},{"start":15400.572,"end":15423.287,"text":"是也就是說是在整個菸捐的分配的部分如果說能夠將多一點的這個疫苗去這個菸捐的錢去捐助去益助罕病治療的話會更好但另外本行有發現在你們的這個菸捐的使用上面這也是依照你們自己的成果報告裡面所講的竟然還菸捐去支付國外的出國費用"},{"start":15424.908,"end":15446.223,"text":"像是林晉營次長陪同賴總統去繁榮南島智慧永續專案陪同賴總統去出訪太平洋友邦然後呢前衛福部的部長薛瑞元也是去巴拉圭參加這些會議那這些出國參加會議的經費適合用煙捐嗎嗯"},{"start":15452.683,"end":15473.793,"text":"那事實上是不應該用煙磚的有依規定編列就可以使用你們這個部分本來應該是編列你們在公務的出國預算裡面可是你們現在把煙磚拿來做這種什麼陪手桶出國這個我本身認為說這樣子的方式是不對的是不正確的其實醫療專業的官員如果去其實是做了很多的醫療上的交流啦"},{"start":15482.017,"end":15487.458,"text":"我今天提出這個問題,我希望衛福部能夠去檢討,而且要好好的善用煙捐而不是把煙捐拿去去貼補你們衛福部的高官出國的差旅費好不好好,謝謝我們會檢討,而且這個都是用在醫藥的交流啦,跟委員報告謝謝委員的資訊,下一位請,張祺凱委員資訊,請"},{"start":15526.073,"end":15529.975,"text":"請衛部邱部長跟財政部的莊部長兩位部長請委員好大家好"},{"start":15540.134,"end":15554.244,"text":"你們24號就要開這個跨部會的會議現在的問題嚴重在哪邊就是因為私菸的查緝不力不是只有私菸氾濫現在連毒品都已經是氾濫了所以一定要24號這個會要針對問題趕快去解決問題我先來看第一頁其實啦"},{"start":15562.708,"end":15590.374,"text":"你看那一天連那個卓榮泰卓院長到你們財政部的官務署去開記者會那一天啊大家看一下那個畫面多諷刺他本來是要去展現掃讀的、截心的結果那一天的早上啊媒體發了一個專題說啊海刑署集體詐騙領取契獎這個查緝的這個獎金高達數億元他中了什麼事情"},{"start":15591.121,"end":15605.536,"text":"他去戈劫了失焉集團他塞人頭去造假這個這個績效那天等於是財政部狠狠打了卓院長一巴掌失焉的這個茶器失焉的這個茶器"},{"start":15607.858,"end":15632.183,"text":"問題太多了 而且導致連毒品都進來了 也產生一堆鼻癌連海關 剛剛講的是一個新聞另外有一個海關 涉及集體這個貪汙他去蒐集一些微薄的賄賂 把跟這個私菸集團 走私集團都掛在一起連我們嘉義啊 你看嚴重到什麼程度連我的嘉義 嘉義關抄一個電子菸的地下倉儲 市值就超過五千萬"},{"start":15635.089,"end":15662.479,"text":"這私菸真的太氾濫了,而且毒品都藏在裡面來,讓我們繼續解決問題現在剛好有立委在提到說這個菸菸的分配目前是中央佔一半嘛對不對?對應一半嘛,是不是?保證可以,你的報告裡面專案報告說授權地方主要是地方去查緝啊你看一下地方跟中央查緝的比例多少?91比9耶"},{"start":15664.67,"end":15675.411,"text":"都是地方在查緝 中央分那麼多錢 啊分完之後還出現了 剛有委員講的拿錢 拿引擎 拿去陪總統出國"},{"start":15677.83,"end":15705.116,"text":"所以我具體的要求,第一個,中央的這個煙間啊,應該多下放一些給地方,因為地方負責查緝嘛,對不對?做工作是地方啊,第二個,不能再出現的拿煙間去出國這件事情。另外,我們看一個具體的解決方案,美國商會在2026年的6月白皮書,他提到說我們非法煙瓶交易已經變成一個多面向的議題了,他提了一個很重要的建議,"},{"start":15706.357,"end":15733.169,"text":"他建立說要導入新世代的執法這個科技這個我希望你們在24號的會議都要好好討論更嚴重來 我們來看看依照國建署這個統計112年我們歷年國中學生使用這個電子菸國中生抽菸的高達3.2%高中生跳了一倍6.3%"},{"start":15736.032,"end":15755.943,"text":"大學生5.24所以不只要好好清查要怎麼避免我們的學生抽屍菸而且甚至碰到毒品另外我要特別問一個就是成人的電子菸使用率為什麼一直都沒有統計我們有統計是1.0那這個一定是一個黑數太多了吧有可能1.0嗎 保定你有沒有看到有可能1.0"},{"start":15763.82,"end":15790.873,"text":"成人抽電子菸比例只有1嗎?我看加一個人可能不會吧?要詳時去查好不好?要詳時去查好來我提一個很嚴重的問題齁剛剛講這個菸毒啊就跟著就進來了上司菸蛋啊進來之後出現一個很嚴重的問題法務部的代表賽對不對法務部跟警察局你們現在查這個菸毒的時候"},{"start":15792.011,"end":15795.112,"text":"你的準確度只有30欸你這樣怎麼查這碰到兩個問題嘛你會不會侵犯到人權你快篩的時候因為你的快篩有問題你快篩就抓到他你就把他關起來對不對關到隔天結果隔天一篩是偽陽性"},{"start":15822.605,"end":15827.868,"text":"這問題要解決準確度只有30%我們具體做兩個很重要的現在有6家提供快篩去查一下先給本席一個6家他們的準確度有多少"},{"start":15846.809,"end":15860.654,"text":"那個食藥署安徒市長會談一下跟委員報告因為快篩本身不是屬於醫療器材那這個之前我們在行政院都開過會這個部分應該是刑事局在負責相關他的這個採購跟他的品管誰負責?刑事局"},{"start":15862.025,"end":15886.859,"text":"刑事警察局那24號會員要找他們來對不對好那你們法務部負責這已經變成毒品了嘛這個我們在行政院都有討論過這個已經變成是毒品啦不是只有私菸問題啊所以法務部也要進來啊好不好第一個把公布這六家它準確度到底有多少那你當然買比較精準的嘛好不好而且要求到快篩的精準度要高主席先站起來喔最後做四個建議"},{"start":15888.32,"end":15896.774,"text":"請這四個建立在24號 具體來落實跟討論好不好第一 建立地方跟中央調整菸間分配的這個比例"},{"start":15897.871,"end":15924.079,"text":"中央應該適度要下放給地方第二個嚴厲美國商會剛剛那個建議好不好然後呢第三個嚴厲就是剛剛講的這個喪屍煙堵的這個快篩劑的你要中央要給一個指引然後要把這個快篩的精準度要一次提高了第四個剛剛講的剛才我們統計不好寫統計成人煙的這個稀釋率是多少好不好我們一起來我們各部會來一起嚴厲第一天回去是你主席對不對"},{"start":15925.419,"end":15943.934,"text":"二十四號這個議題都要在裡面喔然後你到底得出什麼樣的解決方案送一份到報公室來好的好 謝謝好 謝謝張文宇的諮詢讓那個私菸不要這麼氾濫特別是毒品一定要煮好 謝謝張文宇的諮詢下一位請林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩我們不在麥玉正委員請諮詢"},{"start":15957.811,"end":15962.781,"text":"蕭主席有請部長 衛福部衛福部局部長委員好"},{"start":15970.472,"end":15990.985,"text":"部長好我們現在根據煙害防治法的修正案從112年3月22日起電子煙未經核准的烈煙品已全面禁止但是相關的製造輸入還有"},{"start":15992.606,"end":16015.047,"text":"販賣供應的廣告還是一樣有展示的行為法律都已經明文規定是違法的但是不過我們要請教部長一下這部法雖然修了但是現在法則真的夠重 夠有震撼力了但是特別針對青少年"},{"start":16016.228,"end":16034.904,"text":"販售的電子煙這一塊是否跟法務部研議修法再進一步視為扎重責任行為來處理 第一個如果明知對象是未成年在販賣這個東西 但是是否應該引入"},{"start":16036.004,"end":16061.523,"text":"刑法還有納入詐騙或危害健康的相關的罪責有沒有言議有沒有兩邊來去討論我想謝謝委員的隨行這個是非常重要的議題我們一定要嚴加管理尤其面對青少年比較沒辦法了解太多"},{"start":16063.186,"end":16086.105,"text":"比較容易被可能被影響到的我們一定要保護他所以在其實我們最近也在已經研修法譬如說在第一線他就可以沒入這個對很多縣市他們的反應是第一線的是有很大的幫助那至於說在華澤方面不曉得國政司有沒有要補充"},{"start":16087.389,"end":16101.26,"text":"我想這個在相關的法令的研修過程中都會跟法務部一起來討論這個最後大家對於法條的行程跟法條大家的共識最後才能夠送出來給行政院或者最後到大安來審查"},{"start":16102.65,"end":16109.816,"text":"但是這些業者不只是罰錢了事所以我們要請衛福部這邊是不是願意主動研議修法一部就是說專門鎖定青少年的違法的行為還有實施更嚴格的刑事的處罰還有就是說收銀的財產能不能就是讓這些黑心電他們就是因為危害我們的孩子"},{"start":16131.391,"end":16140.183,"text":"所以他們就是屁股拍一拍,有一個地方繼續賣,繼續做生意這樣對我們的一脈掃指的話,今天真的很可憐好,了解"},{"start":16146.811,"end":16159.443,"text":"所以這個部分我們不只是法而已,還有關於他們的財產如何就是扣留,繳回國庫,或者怎麼樣,這樣才會怕啦不是說發發的,我有錢,發到就了事了,要不然我去那個地方再來,對不對"},{"start":16168.429,"end":16181.114,"text":"所以我們希望說在第二題就是說網路販售的跨境就是流通的平台的責任這個部分我們現在在網路上還是看到的"},{"start":16181.581,"end":16196.342,"text":"可是我們在這個部分的確是非常的用力啦比如說在今年來大概94%都有下架所以現在你去上去基本上有看到但是點不進去的很多啦"},{"start":16198.744,"end":16222.579,"text":"但是我們會再繼續努力我們會加強力道因為這個是很多大家所關心的這個是我們全力以赴的事情所以我們希望是說我們要和NCC就是跨部會就像我一直在建議我們的就是"},{"start":16223.78,"end":16237.552,"text":"警政署的現在把人家都利用在台灣有81萬的移工還有60萬的新住民還有8萬多的逃跑移工用不一樣的語言來去騙"},{"start":16239.053,"end":16260.235,"text":"去台灣的新住民跟移工現在我們就是在這些網站很多都是說國外的但是事實上他用不同的語言用不同的平台就是變成記憶台在別的地方但是我們可以應用這個現有這些人才現有這些語言幫你倒三天這樣才會抓到"},{"start":16262.337,"end":16286.869,"text":"不能說我們有啊有啊,但是你說點沒有,我們就點到有啊,不能這樣騙人今天手機發一個就看到了,點一個就沒了這很簡單的事情,所以我們希望衛福部一定要跟法務部還有就是NCC把這樣子的一個平台真正的消除、消滅這樣才會真的對我們年輕的孩子有幫助"},{"start":16289.83,"end":16302.353,"text":"好 謝謝 我們一定朝這個目標來努力而且各部會合作來努力沒有說在研議 在討論啊沒有什麼研議 這個就一直在做了這個就一直在做 謝謝委員提供一些資料"},{"start":16309.375,"end":16327.621,"text":"那麼向委員會報告今日登記發言委員經已全部詢答完畢本日會議作如下是決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內已書面答覆"},{"start":16332.163,"end":16355.288,"text":"委員另要求期限者從即所定三 委員蘇清泉 謝榮介 徐欣盈所提的書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆四 本次會議議程已全部進行完畢討論有在場的委員提出書面諮詢"},{"start":16357.049,"end":16359.952,"text":"並列入紀錄 刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理"}]}},{"id":"162698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162698","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a734e3db534ea78732d89c8da44615ed5dbfe48e1f12328ce2483290c181a374e3b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:52:23 - 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剛才各個委員先進 前面大家都關切我們在這個"},{"start":9.744,"end":35.818,"text":"整個以牙中間所以我是最外面的專家我正想聆聽大家都關切所以我們就不再focus在所謂喬森我們的同胞在那邊旅遊這個我知道外交部就做了很多精神花這個功夫那我下面也要希望提幾個問題就是因為川普總統上來以後現在我們要關切的就是川普2.0那他的國家安全戰略"},{"start":36.898,"end":53.614,"text":"在他的任内要向国会提出来那这个里面包括他的国防战略军事战略印太战略那上一次在月前古里安处长曾经回答媒体说有关川普总统的印太战略可以先参考第一任的2019的"},{"start":54.935,"end":75.948,"text":"那這個2019的那個解密的文件就在下面那句話那這個就提供參考了實際上我們就發現現在國際情勢的變化它不只是軍事實力被變外交立場的預防南海經濟的追求另外它要強調很多的法規專利的保護那這個是一個整合性的一個外交"},{"start":77.5,"end":89.968,"text":"事實上前陣子我們部內也安排過美國國會特別針對中共的研究委員會也來訪問我們也做過意念交流那就發現了我們需要把外交"},{"start":92.742,"end":105.291,"text":"經濟當然關稅問題了還有這個能源醫療體系還有國防啊我們希望做一個一個整合的概念那這個東西呢我們政府當然現在努力朝這個方向做但是將來啊他不能夠切開單獨做報告那這張圖啊"},{"start":110.023,"end":129.324,"text":"是从川普第45任拜登46任到他现在47任了美国对国际所有他的不管是对手合作的对象当他要实施一些重点要求的时候他就在这个中间虚线里面的这20项主要的项目前后调整"},{"start":130.845,"end":148.021,"text":"从后面拉到前面加码那前面的放松就往后移其实它是一个完整的战略的一个scope那我们希望未来在这个领域里面透过跨部会的协商不管执政在野我们在共同努力能够预应掌握这个情势"},{"start":148.922,"end":169.269,"text":"那這樣子的話就不是說針對每一個單項的狀況去做問如何反應這點要大家共同努力那事實上這個美方的要求各位看出來了不只是關稅的問題也要取消障礙開放市場增加投資包括你的high tech過去"},{"start":170.129,"end":188.183,"text":"那么最后面这张我很快就跳过去就不提了那这是因为我们从这个民间的各种不同的资讯从美国内部资讯对这个川普总统对他的这个国际的招式做了一个分析但我就不提了那现在最主要就是"},{"start":188.823,"end":218.203,"text":"在这个国际情势变化万千啊我们外交部当然刚才都提了我希望我们的资讯处啊将来能够导入一些AI的技术啊掌握我们全球有邦交的国家有代表处的国家结合啊那个及时的GIS的情报就可以标注出来除了这个文字叙述以外可以显示出来那么利用这个AI的资料库啊我想我们在外讲所这边可以办研讨会啊我们都很愿意大家把一些经验做分享"},{"start":219.164,"end":233.822,"text":"现在比较严肃的问题啊就是以色列在这个6月13号啊凌晨3点啊打了两个伊朗的核设施那么伊朗的领袖啊就要谈啊要不要做报复那现在这个大家都是看媒体啊"},{"start":234.403,"end":260.179,"text":"很關心這種衝突會不會變成真正的所謂宣戰的戰爭目前是軍事衝突我們還沒有聽到聯合國的安理會對這兩個議題不管是中美英法書常任理事國提出這個問題的重要性現在大家都在關注所以就產生很多的不同的方向的論述包括昨天晚上的媒體甚至講了"},{"start":263.597,"end":285.922,"text":"巴基斯坦說如果以色列要用核武打那巴基斯坦就要挺伊朗這個就很衝突了伊朗會不會報復以色列的核設施這些圖上因為現在的工情跟衛照太容易做校正就找出來了我們當然希望看到還是用和平解決"},{"start":288.496,"end":314.85,"text":"川普總統是說要伊朗無條件surrender但是因為他不是戰爭行為如果不進行談判的話目前還保他一命還不要動手可是在伊朗內部的緊張會反映到他在其他情勢這個是昨天晚上剛才說有三架飛機進到伊朗其實是伊朗三架飛機往外走"},{"start":315.694,"end":338.433,"text":"那是昨天晚上的那透过专业的分析啊伊朗领导人的专机再加上两架空吧从昨天晚上就出来了那起飞以后啊中间他的这个所谓的cosign的他的接接252627三个cosign的号码消失中间有一架飞机啊完全失踪了"},{"start":339.241,"end":368.044,"text":"那昨天晚上的两三腰拐11点17分他降落到阿曼马斯卡特机场伊朗的好朋友是卡达因为他们在红海原油开发可是卡达有中央指挥部他不敢去巴林有第五舰队结果他飞到阿曼去了"},{"start":369.093,"end":375.058,"text":"两种假设一种是领导人就脱逃了第二种假设是不是在"},{"start":376.206,"end":402.896,"text":"阿曼设一个会议的第三地那么由双方来探讨我是建议这几个问题请外交部持续关注这个昨天晚上落地这已经公布这个是Flyradar24的情报已经降落了就三架飞机包括领导人的专机再加两架Airbus已经降落了所以并不是中共的飞机进去而是三架飞机没有显示它的cos已经出来了"},{"start":403.556,"end":427.979,"text":"那麼大家都希望這個中正狀況能夠和平落幕那麼也希望我們駐外的同仁能夠在這個承受這麼大的壓力之下持續啊協助我們的學生協助我們的這個在外的僑胞或者是經商同仁能夠確保他們安全這點我們肯定外交部同仁以及在外面的合作這個"},{"start":430.4,"end":449.159,"text":"這個是承受一個壓力那真正的關切我們還是記住長遠的國際情勢安理會對這件事件有沒有提出會議那另外就是公情跟可以用的一般的資訊做交叉比對我們把這個及時資料大家分享也肯定大家努力謝謝部長您的指導"},{"start":450.16,"end":465.991,"text":"不敢當,確實我想怎麼藉助這種可視化的方式去呈現這些資訊另外一個就是我們跟友邦都有在做情報交換另外這個大使館之間也橫向的聯繫"},{"start":466.952,"end":487.746,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣去掌握正確的資訊跟它可能的動態的發展的趨勢能夠有多一點時間來做好應變的準備所以剛剛委員提到的這些資訊都非常的寶貴那特別有一些是方法論這對我們外交部我想我們外交學院未來的這個在課程師資的設計跟怎麼樣導入包括AI來協助我們做決策的一個判斷"},{"start":496.112,"end":497.256,"text":"那這是我們會來積極的來辦理謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":254,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時52分）部長您好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員永康：剛才前面各個委員先進都關切我們在整個以阿中間，伊朗……"],["林部長佳龍：委員是這方面的專家。"],["陳委員永康：沒有、沒有，大家都關切，所以我就不focus在僑生、我們在那邊旅遊的同胞，我知道外交部都花了很多的精神、功夫。我要提幾個問題，因為川普總統上來以後，現在我們要關切的就是川普2.0的國家安全戰略，這在他的任內要向國會提出來，這裡面包括了他的國防戰略、軍事戰略、印太戰略；月前谷立言處長曾經回答媒體說，有關川普總統的印太戰略，可以先參考川普第一任的印太戰略，就是圖片上2019年已解密文件中最下面的那句話，這就可以提供參考了。","實際上，我們就發現了，現在國際情勢的變化，不只是軍事實力的備變、外交立場的預防、監海經濟的追求，另外，他還強調很多的法規專利的保護，這是一個整合性的外交。事實上，前陣子我們部內安排過特別針對中共的美國國會研究委員會來做訪問，我們也做過意見交流，當中就發現我們需要把外交、經濟、關稅問題、能源、醫療體系還有國防等等，希望做一個整合的概念，當然我們政府現在正努力朝這個方面做，但是將來它不能夠切開、單獨來做報告。","接下來這張圖是從川普第45任到拜登第46任，到他現在的第47任，美國對於國際上所有的，不管是對手、合作的對象，當它要實施一些重點要求的時候，就針對這中間虛線裡面的20項主要項目來做前後的調整，包括從後面拉到前面加碼或是前面的放鬆後就往後移，其實它是一個完整的戰略scope，我們希望未來在這個領域裡面，透過跨部會的協商，不管執政、在野，我們大家共同努力，能夠預應、掌握這個情勢，這樣子的話，就不是針對每一個單項的狀況去問要如何反應，這點要大家共同努力。事實上，美方的要求，各位也看出來，不只是關稅的問題，它也要取消障礙、開放市場、增加投資，包括你的high-tech要過去等等。","最後面這張我很快就跳過去、就不提了，這是從民間取得的各種不同資訊、從美國內部得到的資訊，我們就川普總統對國際所採取的招式做了一個分析，但我就不再提了。","現在最主要就是國際情勢變化萬千，當然我們外交部剛才都提了，我希望我們的資訊處將來能夠導入一些AI的技術，掌握我們在全球有邦交的國家、有代表處的國家，並結合即時GIS的情報，就可以標註出來，除了文字敘述以外，也可以顯示出來，利用AI的資料庫，然後我們外講所這邊可以辦研討會，總之，我們都很願意把一些經驗來做分享。","現在比較嚴肅的問題就是以色列在6月13號凌晨3點打了兩個伊朗的核設施，而伊朗的領袖正在談要不要做報復，現在大家都是看媒體得知，也很關心這種衝突會不會變成真正所謂宣戰的戰爭，即目前是軍事衝突，我們還沒有聽到聯合國安理會針對這兩個議題，有關中、美、英、法、蘇常任理事國是否提出這個問題的重要性，現在大家都在關注，所以就產生很多不同方向的論述，包括昨天晚上有媒體甚至提到巴基斯坦表示，如果以色列要用核武打，那巴基斯坦就要挺伊朗，這個就很衝突了！那伊朗會不會報復以色列的核設施？關於這些圖，因為現在的公情跟偽造太容易，做校正就可以找出來了，我們當然希望看到還是用和平方式解決。對此，川普總統是說要伊朗無條件surrender，但是因為它不是戰爭行為，如果不進行談判的話……目前還是保它一命、還不會動手，可是在伊朗內部的緊張會反映到它其他的情勢。","接下來是這張圖，剛才說昨天晚上有3架飛機進到伊朗，其實是伊朗有3架飛機往外走，這是昨天晚上的資訊，透過專業的分析，包括伊朗領導人的專機再加上兩架空巴，昨天晚上就出來了，起飛以後jj25、jj26、jj27這3個call sign號碼消失，中間還有一架飛機是完全失蹤了，然後在昨天晚上11點17分（2317）降落到阿曼馬斯喀特機場。伊朗的好朋友是卡達，因為他們在紅海進行原油開發，可是卡達有中央指揮部，所以它不敢去；巴林有第五艦隊，結果它飛到阿曼去了，這有兩種假設，第一種是領導人就脫逃了，第二種假設，是不是在阿曼設一個會議的第三地，由雙方來探討，我是建議這幾個問題請外交部持續關注。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員永康：昨天晚上落地一事，這已經公布了，這是來自Flightradar24的情報，它已經降落了，有3架飛機，包括領導人的專機再加兩架Airbus，已經降落了，所以並不是中共的飛機進去，而是3架飛機沒有顯示它的call sign，然後這3架已經出來了，大家都希望中東的狀況能夠和平落幕，也希望我們駐外的同仁在承受這麼大的壓力之下，持續協助我們的學生、協助我們在外的僑胞或者是經商同仁，能夠確保他們安全，這點我們肯定外交部同仁以及對外合作。這是在承受一個壓力，但真正的關鍵，我們還是記住長遠的國際情勢，安理會對這件事件有沒有提出會議的召開？另外，就是將公情跟可以用的一般資訊來做交叉比對，我們把這個即時資料跟大家分享，也肯定大家的努力，謝謝部長您的指導。"],["林部長佳龍：不敢當！確實怎麼藉助這種可視化的方式去呈現這些資訊，另外一個就是我們跟友邦都有在做情報交換，然後大使館之間也有橫向的聯繫，所以我們要怎麼樣去掌握正確的資訊跟它可能的動態發展趨勢，能夠有多一點時間來做好應變的準備，剛剛委員提到的這些資訊都非常寶貴，特別有一些是方法論，這對我們外交部還有我們外交學院，未來在課程、師資的設計上怎麼樣導入AI來協助我們做決策的判斷，這個我們會來積極辦理，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員的質詢。","接下來由林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73282581ad7c5fb655c914d80f272b5bb4907d28bbaa3ae0231fb40e3de1eea3c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:47:44 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謝謝主席 我們請吳次長麻煩次長"},{"start":15.674,"end":41.337,"text":"市長好 市長我們今天是要來討論這個新住民發展署的組織法草案那這個我必須說有一點遺憾因為當時我們在討論這個新住民基本法的時候其實大家都知道新住民已經現在是台灣不可分割不可或缺的組成我們都非常非常的期待大家是一起為這塊土地努力 沒有錯"},{"start":41.937,"end":69.425,"text":"所以政府也應該要照顧這些新來的夥伴能夠盡快的加入這個大家庭並且權益要能夠受到保障這就是我們對所謂新住民的態度而且第一代來這裡的時候他叫新他的第二代是新住民的子女但是到第三代第四代呢其實我們在場甚至包括在場所有的人都來自不同的地方上述到幾代沒有人是相同的但今天我們全部都是台灣人"},{"start":70.285,"end":89.748,"text":"所以新住民之子的在下一代在下一代是不是還是新住民當時都有很清楚的在討論過所以這部這個基本法也好或者是法規也好當時就說新住民定義是新住民本身以及新住民之子放在新住民基本法是這樣子討論來的"},{"start":91.129,"end":120.567,"text":"好 我要先講這個前提是在於說大家都想照顧新加入台灣的夥伴這個沒有問題可是當時的法規制度到底是要用什麼樣的法治條例來讓這一部法律文字能夠對新朋友新住民更多的保障當時就有兩種派別嘛第一個是基本法也就是在凌駕在所有其他法律之上的一個通則一個像憲法一樣的精神所有的法律在基本法之下都要臣服嘛這是基本法"},{"start":121.047,"end":138.999,"text":"好 但是 但是因為新住民的相關事務實在涉及太多面向了你看看今天來的部會有多少單位還有所有未來我們要討論的問題從教育 社福 這個甚至是勞動太多了啦 勞動不只啦 實在太多 等一下請你講"},{"start":140.06,"end":157.896,"text":"所以當時就想說 那會不會有彼此漢格的地方所以本基於 基於剛剛要說的保護 保障新加入的朋友的這一群人我們是不是用一個作用法的形態所以當時我們的主張是 新住民權益保障法"},{"start":159.037,"end":173.092,"text":"讓這個法跟其他法有一個空間可以互相流通這是這樣的狀況可是當時本黨的委員我們這邊的委員因為人數比較少所以後來就通過了基本法基本法也很好就通過了通過了以後現在要開始落實了我們現在在討論相關的法規"},{"start":179.739,"end":204.232,"text":"市長不好意思市長我想請問你一下你現在開了七次的會議你剛剛說七次嘛是七次的會議理論上是就剛剛所有相關方方面面的問題你要去盤整盤點以至於解決甚至是為了解決而設計再寫出新的相關的法條出來這樣我們今天才能夠有所謂的法條來討論嘛"},{"start":205.393,"end":231.987,"text":"那顯然你因為說就是因為這麼複雜啊所以院版的還沒有能夠今天呈現在委員會上面但反過來有這麼多的委員已經有版本了來 次長我現在就要問你第一 你在這七次會議當中有遇到哪一些問題這些問題是否如同當時我們講的確實是有漢格之處以至於困難難解到底有還是沒有是我們多慮了呢還是實務上真的有這樣發生"},{"start":233.268,"end":252.741,"text":"第二如果確實有這個漢格的發生的話那你現在要怎麼解今天所有的委員版因為都不是院版嘛委員版當中是不是就有因為我們擔憂的這種狀況所以如果他就現在先寫成委員版的條文是不是通過以後反而會造成更大的麻煩市長請回答"},{"start":255.843,"end":282.575,"text":"好謝謝委員那我想我主持的七次的整個籌備小組的部分其實會先都是先琢磨在新住民基本法的內容那它的內容的部分所以我們在檢視的時候我們到底是說到底要幾個科要承辦什麼業務所以我們就依照基本法裡面的劃分裡面去研究那去研究了之後其實才發現說其實包括有教育的部分有文化的部分有勞動的部分就業的部分甚至還有有關"},{"start":284.136,"end":301.581,"text":"媒體宣傳應該不是才發現啦是更確認啦就是因為這樣所以我們在組別的時候我們就會先找各相關部會就是原本有一些是在各部會工作的部分那我們就要跟他協調是把這業務部分是連同人移播過來或者是業務移播過來人們移過來所以我們一直在開這個會"},{"start":302.281,"end":323.866,"text":"因為事實上比如說勞動好了我新住民在一個地方上班會牽涉到的勞動到底是以人為界限所有的我在這裡上班所以我所有未來碰到的東西以後都變成是移民署這邊來處理還是是勞動部那我和一個台灣現在的本地的人這樣子的兩個人的狀況到底這件事情要怎麼處理"},{"start":325.306,"end":346.049,"text":"這個會不會有這樣的問題?就是會有,所以我們包括像教育部的部分,包括教育事業、教育就業那這些的部分其實例如說通譯等等的那這個在基本法裡面有規範的部分,我們都要找教育單位來做確定還有我想國人也相當關心的,因為我們的新住民主城是來自於新住民他們來自多個不同的國家,包括中國"},{"start":347.23,"end":361.828,"text":"那所以到底是先適用兩岸人民關係條例還是先適用這個新住民的這個部分那您怎麼回答是 謝謝委員長那我想在新住民基本法第二條裡面他當時是把婚姻移民之外還有包括專業技術移民也要保障新住民子女"},{"start":362.208,"end":378.547,"text":"其實我們目前新住民定義的部分其實在婚姻移民的部分這邊就佔的蠻多的啦是就佔的蠻多那其實這個佔的蠻多之外那有些是還要分兩種他的身分別是什麼第二個他有沒有取得國人身分那如果取得國人身分其實就是我們的國民啦我們的認為是這樣子"},{"start":379.668,"end":403.275,"text":"那我們經統計這樣子的話 目前新住民基本法適用就超過50萬那他未來還會繼續受陸委會的管轄嗎 依然要人民關係條例這個部分就是還要再進一步要進一步進行是嘛 所以就是有這麼多問題 到底解決到哪裡了 還是還沒有到底是解決的前期 還是已經快解決完了 還是是什麼狀況跟委員報告 我想這部分我們都還會跟陸委會還要再確認有關婚配移民的部分"},{"start":403.815,"end":421.472,"text":"我想我今天用全部的時間 其實我準備非常多題目因為其實如果要具體下去的話我個人最關心的是包括通譯制度的部分那時候我們在審查基本法的時候甚至有做了附帶決議要求內政部既有的通譯制度要能夠更精進甚至要有專責的這個單位來做統一 全國統一各族群統一的這個通譯制度不過呢"},{"start":427.338,"end":450.237,"text":"我覺得與其在這裡進入到細節的討論不如是我們大家一起尤其是今天是內政和司法的聯繫我們再一起回憶一次當時我們要做這部法律的時候其實是為了保障新加入台灣的朋友們新住民的權益讓他們可以更好的生活在這塊土地上更快的融入這個社會這是我們的本意"},{"start":452.299,"end":458.206,"text":"但如果我們因為這部法律以及如果我們要倉促上路後面的相關配套倉促上路的話那麼我認為有可能反而會得不償失因為牽涉的方面可能太"},{"start":467.196,"end":488.202,"text":"太多了我反而會覺得應該是內政部是不是應該不管是在內政委員會也好因為這是我們的本業嘛你們應該定期提出專報跟我們報告說現在進度到哪裡了我們贊不贊成這樣的方向大家都贊成了之後有共識之後再劃約為文字一次到位這樣大家才能得到最好的保障"},{"start":488.422,"end":502.584,"text":"而不是今天就已經就現在的委員的各版本在沒有院版的狀況下沒有共識甚至是沒有會議已經有定論的狀況下就開始處理這樣的法案這是我個人的意見啦好 謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時47分）謝謝主席，我們請吳次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長好。次長，我們今天要來討論新住民發展署組織法草案，我必須說有一點遺憾，因為當時我們在討論新住民基本法的時候，其實大家都知道，現在新住民已經是臺灣不可分割、不可或缺的組成，我們都非常非常地期待，大家是一起為這塊土地努力。沒有錯，所以政府也應該要照顧這些新來的夥伴，能夠儘快加入這個大家庭，並且權益要能夠受到保障，這就是我們對新住民的態度。而且第一代來這裡的時候，他叫新住民，他的第二代是新住民的子女，但是到第三代、第四代呢？甚至包括在場所有的人都來自不同的地方，上溯到幾代，沒有人是相同的，但今天我們全部都是臺灣人。所以新住民之子的再下一代、再下一代，是不是還是新住民？當時都有很清楚地討論過。所以這部基本法也好，或者是法規也好，當時就說新住民定義是新住民本身以及新住民之子放在新住民基本法，是這樣子討論來的。","我要先講這個前提是在於大家都想照顧新加入臺灣的夥伴，這個沒有問題，可是當時的法規制度，到底是要用什麼樣的法制條例，來讓這一部法律文字能夠對新朋友、新住民有更多的保障？當時就有兩種派別，第一個是基本法，也就是凌駕在所有其他法律之上的一個通則，一個像憲法一樣的精神，所有的法律在基本法之下都要臣服，這是基本法。但是因為新住民的相關事務，實在涉及太多面向了，你看看今天來的部會有多少單位？還有所有未來我們要討論的問題，從教育、社福甚至是……"],["吳次長堂安：勞動。"],["蘇委員巧慧：太多了，勞動，不止，真的太多，等一下請你講。當時就想說會不會有彼此扞格的地方，所以基於剛剛說的保障新加入的朋友、這一群人，我們是不是用一個作用法的型態？所以當時我們的主張是新住民權益保障法，讓這個法跟其他法有一個空間可以互相流通，是這樣的狀況，可是當時本黨的委員、我們這邊的委員因為人數比較少，所以後來就通過了基本法。基本法也很好，就通過了，那通過了以後，現在要開始落實了，我們現在在討論相關的法規，次長，不好意思，我想請問你一下，你現在開了7次的會議，你剛剛說7次嘛！"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：7次的會議，理論上是就剛剛所有相關、方方面面的問題，你要去盤整、盤點以至於解決，甚至是為了解決而設計、再寫出新的相關法條出來，這樣我們今天才能夠有所謂的法條來討論嘛！顯然就是因為這麼複雜，所以院版在今天還沒能呈現在委員會上面，但反過來，這麼多的委員已經有版本了！次長，我現在就要問你，第一，你在這7次會議當中有遇到哪些問題？這些問題是否如同當時我們講的確實是有扞格之處，以致於困難難解，到底有還是沒有？是我們多慮了？還是實務上真的有發生？第二，如果確實有扞格發生，你現在要怎麼解？今天所有的委員版，因為都不是院版，委員版當中是不是就有我們擔憂的這種狀況，所以如果現在先寫成委員版的條文，是不是通過以後反而會造成更大的麻煩？次長請回答。"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。我主持的7次籌備小組的部分，其實都是先著墨在新住民基本法的內容，所以我們在檢視的時候，到底要幾個科、要承辦什麼業務，就依照基本法裡面的劃分去研究，去研究了之後才發現其實有包括教育的部分、有文化的部分、有勞動的部分、就業的部分，甚至還有有關媒體……"],["蘇委員巧慧：應該不是才發現，是更確認。"],["吳次長堂安：就是因為這樣，所以我們在組別的時候，我們就會先找各相關部會，就是原本有一些是在各部會工作的部分，我們就要跟它協調，是把業務連同人移撥過來，或者是業務移撥過來、人沒移過來，所以我們一直在開這個會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為事實上比如說勞動好了，新住民在一個地方上班會牽涉到的勞動到底是以人為界線，在這裡上班，所以我所有未來碰到的東西以後都變成是移民署來處理還是勞動部？我和一個臺灣本地人，兩個人的狀況有差異，到底這件事情要怎麼處理，會不會有這樣的問題？"],["吳次長堂安：就是會有，所以包括像教育部的部分，教育事業、教育就業這些，還有例如通譯等等在基本法裡面有規範的部分，我們都要找教育單位來做確定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：還有我想國人也相當關心的，因為我們的新住民組成是來自多個不同的國家，包括中國，所以到底是先適用兩岸人民關係條例，還是先適用新住民的部分，您怎麼回答？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。在新住民基本法第二條裡面，當時是把婚姻移民之外，還有包括專業技術移民，也要保障新住民子女，所以其實我們目前新住民定義的部分，在婚姻移民就占得滿多的，有些還要分兩種，他的身分別是什麼？第二個，他有沒有取得國人身分？如果取得國人身分其實就是我們的國民，我們認為是這樣子，經統計這樣子的話，目前新住民基本法適用就有超過……"],["蘇委員巧慧：他未來還會繼續受陸委會的管轄嗎？依兩岸人民關係條例。"],["吳次長堂安：這個部分就是還要再進一步去釐清。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是嘛！所以就是有這麼多問題，到底解決到哪裡了？到底是解決的前期還是已經快解決完了？還是是什麼狀況？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，有關婚配移民的部分，我們跟陸委會還要再確認。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我今天用全部的時間，其實我準備非常多的題目啦！因為其實如果要具體下去的話，我個人最關心的是包括通譯制度的部分，我們在審查基本法的時候甚至有做了附帶決議，要求內政部既有的通譯制度要能夠更精進，甚至要有專責的單位來做全國統一、各族群統一的通譯制度。不過我覺得與其在這裡進入到細節的討論，不如是我們大家一起，尤其今天是內政和司法的聯席，我們再一起回憶一次，當時我們要做這部法律的時候，其實是為了保障新加入臺灣的朋友們、新住民的權益，讓他們可以更好地生活在這塊土地上、更快地融入這個社會，這是我們的本意。但如果我們因為這部法律以及如果我們要倉促上路，後面的相關配套倉促上路的話，那麼我認為有可能反而會得不償失，因為牽涉的方面可能太多了。我反而會覺得內政部是不是應該……不管是在內政委員會也好，因為這是我們的本業，你們應該定期提出專報跟我們報告現在進度到哪裡了，我們贊不贊成這樣的方向，大家都贊成了之後、有共識之後，再化約為文字，一次到位，這樣大家才能得到最好的保障。而不是今天就現在委員的各版本，在沒有院版的狀況下，沒有共識，甚至是沒有會議已經有定論的狀況下，就開始處理這樣的法案，這是我個人的意見啦，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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先恭喜委員 也感謝為我們外交透過國會外交去拓展我們的總和外交特別是援助於外交方面 我們跟關島自從去年總統過境關島總督古雷諾總督也來台灣訪問在近期內 已經訪問完了"},{"start":218.349,"end":238.154,"text":"因此這個包括原住民外交這個差不多族跟我們原住民族是有這個遠親的關係所以在原住民文化的合作上包括一些研究包括未來怎麼樣去促進更多的交流將會是一個重點"},{"start":238.934,"end":241.855,"text":"那因為它是第二島鏈是非常重要的樞紐位置隨著印太的這個地區大家越來越重視那應該是台灣跟關島包括"},{"start":252.83,"end":278.716,"text":"文化、經貿還有各方面的交流應該可以預期是會更為蓬勃發展我想總統都已經有表達關島跟我們這邊都是一家親而且語言上的一個語文的交流就非常的一個緊密所以這一次這個和關島總督與還有議長的一個交流的時候這個他們特別的關心農業、觀光跟"},{"start":281.917,"end":306.318,"text":"醫療的互動那尤其是總督提到台灣是關島最重要的醫療的轉介夥伴那但目前直航班機非常有限關島居民對於台灣的醫療品質非常的信賴那希望雙方能夠有更頻繁更常態化的直飛的航班那請問部長在有什麼樣的能夠在這個比較積極的一個作為"},{"start":311.232,"end":337.621,"text":"是跟委員報告其實我們在今年的就是過年這個春節的前後我們也有華航的包機那後來現在當然是聯合航空現在在就是飛這條航線那國內的航空公司我們也在協調希望能夠有定期的航班飛關島跟台灣因為這裡面除了觀光旅遊以外包括剛剛講的醫療的轉診"},{"start":340.262,"end":359.198,"text":"其實台灣對他們來講醫療是價格更便宜但是水準很高他們很期待很期待而且希望能夠就是說也能夠在農業上跟水產業上他這一次古雷諾總督來台灣特別去考察了包括一些垂直的農場還有養殖業還有這些那對他們來講他們這些很多都是進口"},{"start":365.962,"end":393.007,"text":"這個糧食啊如果透過台灣去投資也可以出口那要到美國算是免稅所以這個確實是有商機所以因為直航所以現在國內的這些企業也有一個想法希望能夠在那個地方不管是醫療科技而且甚至未來是不是也要提出請我們關島能夠釋出一塊土地作為"},{"start":393.927,"end":409.88,"text":"科具延期的一個地方來提供給我們國人能夠有這個投資一個空間在那個地方好不好我們有進行 請台灣世西進行了一個規劃那現在的在港口附近的那個工業區設施比較完整另外就在機場旁邊還有一塊可以新開發那我們現在也在就是針對各個產業適合去投資美國的其實關島是離台灣最近的美國"},{"start":421.008,"end":438.489,"text":"的這個領土所以確實是關島跟我們可以除了互設代表處我們可以有更多的這個未來可以交流合作的項目我想這個是總統也很重視那我想說再一次的可能我會再出訪到"},{"start":441.812,"end":463.3,"text":"還有一些企業可能隨同去了解一下關島的一個投資地點是不是適宜那另外就是再次強調我國的外交必須要有新的思維尤其是中共不斷的壓縮我們這個壓縮國的外交空間美中博弈局局勢又顯得詭異複雜"},{"start":464.821,"end":486.957,"text":"所以以原民外交低調突圍絕對是未來我國外交的重點低調突圍就是我們現在原民外交最重要的一環那另外就是我們針對烏克蘭的援助烏克蘭的預算那今天關於我國援助烏克蘭的重建"},{"start":489.82,"end":514.156,"text":"經過外交部說明應該已經取得了提案委員的理解待會應該可以解凍那但如果外交來持續編列援助烏克蘭的一個計畫還有預算本席提醒外交部這一次的預算解凍的其中一個主要的原因是因為存在在以下的一個明顯的一個缺失的一個爭議第一"},{"start":515.597,"end":529.726,"text":"資金用途不夠透明缺乏明確專案的明細第二部分款項轉交國際組織執行成效無法追蹤第三位於烏克蘭官方或當地華僑"},{"start":530.846,"end":552.766,"text":"社群建立固定的协调机制第四原预算编列过于笼统所以缺少专案的分裂第五预算执行进度与成效报告不符实所以陆外交部乃要持续援助乌克兰本市建议针对以上缺失必须要有所改进好不好部长"},{"start":553.206,"end":574.174,"text":"好 我跟委員也說明一下我們從人道援助到協助重建那當然因為我們跟烏克蘭沒有設代表處嘛那我們就透過這理念相近周邊的中東歐國家那確實在幾個項目成效很好除了教育然後醫療現在到包括能源那這些當然有一些項目因為涉及到我們"},{"start":575.615,"end":599.597,"text":"在當地特殊的採購我們是會用比較屬於權宜的方法但是一定是要遵守立法院的決議來辦理所以這次的解凍案也感謝委員有關於在執行上面怎麼樣能夠有更透明然後更詳細的報告包括成果的評估謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時42分）有請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：主席、委員好。"],["黃委員仁：請教一下部長，目前中東地區的戰事，請問一下，評估中東地區戰事的狀況，我國人擔心可能被戰事波及，但據知道，巴林還有我們排球隊正在當地比賽亞洲盃，請問部長有什麼樣的掌握狀況？"],["林部長佳龍：巴林嘛？"],["黃委員仁：對。"],["林部長佳龍：我們在巴林是有設處，我請我們亞非司也來說明一下，對於他們現在聯繫的狀況。"],["陳副司長詠博：報告委員，目前在波斯灣地區這幾個海灣國家，巴林目前並沒有相關安全上的問題，在這一次以色列跟伊朗衝突這個部分，我們在這幾個國家，包含巴林，我們做了旅遊警示的一些相關文字的更新，目前來講，那邊的一些相關活動都還在持續，駐處也都有掌握。"],["黃委員仁：對，我國的排球隊都還在那個地方，請隨時掌握，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員仁：另外，請教一下部長，這次出訪關島，我等帶隊到關島訪問，本席於6月初出訪關島期間，謝謝外交部悉心的安排及協助。"],["林部長佳龍：也恭喜委員這次出訪非常成功，引起很大的迴響。"],["黃委員仁：總合外交及原民外交是非常重要的，這次出訪擴展了我們原民外交的成效，行程中的收穫已經遠遠超過了原民外交的範疇，特別是在臺美印太安全合作，臺灣在第一島鏈戰略樞紐的能見度與外交空間、南太平洋的布局與反制中國大陸在南太擴展的背景下，讓本席堅信我國應該更有明確的戰略定位及後續的行動。本席這次最重要的任務就是推動南島共同體與原民文化外交，這次雖然只到關島，但是可以作為推動到南島語系的示範，包含如何以語言、文化為紐帶，推動南島語族多層面的交流，因此本席在關島跟總督會面的時候，也提出了成立南島文化與語言永續合作平臺的想法。請問部長，對於建立原民外交交流及衍生的文化合作協議，例如關島Chamorro族與臺灣原民團體簽署相關的合作備忘錄（MOU），外交部有什麼樣的想法？要如何促成？如何推展到南島語系國家？"],["林部長佳龍：先恭喜委員，也感謝委員透過國會外交拓展我們的總合外交，特別是原住民外交方面，自從去年總統過境關島之後，古蕾露總督也在近期內來臺灣訪問，已經訪問完。在原住民外交方面，Chamorro族跟我們原住民族有遠親的關係，所以在原住民文化的合作上，包括一些研究、未來怎麼樣促進更多的交流，將會是一個重點，因為它是第二島鏈，位於非常重要的樞紐位置，隨著印太地區越來越受重視，臺灣跟關島在文化、經貿、各方面的交流，預期應該會更為蓬勃發展。"],["黃委員仁：總統已經表達關島跟我們都是一家親，而且語文上的語言交流非常地緊密。這次關島總督及議長來臺交流時，特別關心農業、觀光及醫療的互動，尤其總督提到臺灣是關島最重要的醫療轉介夥伴，但目前直航班機非常有限，關島居民對於臺灣的醫療品質非常信賴，希望雙方能夠有更頻繁、更常態化的直飛航班，請問部長有什麼比較積極的作為？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，其實我們在今年春節前後也有華航的包機，現在是聯合航空在飛這條航線，我們也協調國內的航空公司，希望能夠有定期的航班飛關島跟臺灣，因為這裡面除了觀光旅遊以外，還包括剛剛講的醫療轉診，其實對他們來講，臺灣的醫療價格更便宜，水準卻很高。"],["黃委員仁：他們很期待，而且希望也能夠在農業上、水產業上更……"],["林部長佳龍：這次古蕾露總督來臺灣，特別去考察包括一些垂直農場、養殖業，對他們來講，很多都是進口的糧食，如果能夠透過臺灣去投資，也可以出口，他們的產品到美國又免稅，所以這個確實是有商機。"],["黃委員仁：因為直航，所以現在國內的企業也有想法，希望能夠在那個地方投資不管是醫療、科技，甚至提出未來請關島釋出一塊土地作為科技園區，提供國人投資的空間，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有進行一個規劃，現在在港口附近的工業區，設施比較完整，另外在機場旁邊還有一塊可以新開發。我們現在也在針對各個產業適合去投資美國的，其實關島是離臺灣最近的美國領土，關島跟我們除了可以互設代表處，未來可以有更多交流、合作的項目。"],["黃委員仁：這個總統也很重視，我可能會再一次出訪關島，一些企業可能隨同，去瞭解關島投資的地點是否適宜。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員仁：本席再次強調我國的外交必須有新的思維，尤其是中共不斷地壓縮我們的外交空間，美中博弈局勢又顯得詭異複雜，所以以原民外交突圍，絕對是未來我國外交的重點，低調突圍就是現在我們原民外交最重要的一環。","另外，針對援助烏克蘭的預算，今天我國援助烏克蘭的重建預算，經過外交部說明，已經取得了提案委員的理解，待會應該可以解凍……"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員仁：但如果外交部仍持續編列援助烏克蘭的計畫及預算，本席提醒外交部，這次預算遭凍是因為存在以下明顯缺失爭議：第一，資金用途不夠透明，缺乏明確專案明細；第二，部分款項轉交國際組織，執行成效無法追蹤；第三，未與官方或當地僑社建立固定協調機制；第四，原預算編列過於籠統，缺少專案的分列；第五，預算執行進度與成效報告不符實。所以如果外交部仍要持續援助烏克蘭，本席建議針對以上缺失必須要有所改進，部長，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。我跟委員也說明一下，我們從人道援助到協助重建，因為跟烏克蘭沒有設代表處，我們就透過理念相近的周邊中東歐國家，確實在幾個項目的成效很好，除了教育、醫療，現在還包括能源，當然，有一些項目因為涉及我們在當地特殊的採購，我們會用比較權宜的方法，但一定要遵守立法院的決議來辦理。所以這次的解凍案也感謝委員對於執行上面的提醒，包括怎麼樣能夠有更透明、更詳細的報告及成果的評估。"],["黃委員仁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。主席請回。"],["主席（黃委員仁）：接下來由陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a731f1c99b2d514bbfbc914d80f272b5bb4907d28bbaa3ae0234e9a2b1649c807425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:39:26 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謝謝主席我們是不是有請各位委員各位官員早是不是有請內政部這個吳長志以及行政人事總署的蘇仁市長好 仁市長"},{"start":17.288,"end":37.689,"text":"維也好好 謝謝常事長 委員長早跟常事請教剛剛特別我在提案說明有提到立法院在113年的7月16號刪除通過新住民基本法那總統也在8月12號公佈那實行日期由行政院定制那剛剛我想其他"},{"start":39.17,"end":55.936,"text":"其他在野黨的委員也有提說現在目前還沒有正式的這個施行日期還沒有正式的上路所以這邊也希望說長期的部分可以繼續加油趕快讓行政院來公佈好不好可以嗎可以的謝謝那在第一本法第四條裡面有寫說內政部應該設置一個專責的三級機關就是這個"},{"start":62.886,"end":76.843,"text":"發展署的一個部分來統籌新住民的相關政策以及服務事宜那在去年12月的時候內政委員會在審內政部的預算當時劉世芳部長說114年的上半年本來就可以來讓將這個"},{"start":79.325,"end":105.155,"text":"組織法草案送到立法院審查可是今年的5月14號本席又在內政委員會請教劉世芳部長他跟我說他說要改到下會期才可以送進來那我今天看到內政部的報告裡面是寫說因為這可能牽扯到的內容相關的複雜需要相當的作業時間那我們有想先請教一下院版的時候這個常識有沒有覺得什麼時候可以收到立法院審查"},{"start":107.215,"end":127.913,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想總統公布之後其實我們在去年底已經把我們相關的資料都先報給行政院那也程度我剛剛有跟大家報告其實因為這個整個新住民基本法裡面的新住民包括定義包括事務包括有涉及到剛剛講的文化教育衛福還有勞動那這些的部分都還需要再做跨機關的業務的審查"},{"start":129.815,"end":150.345,"text":"那我想我自己本身召開的儲備小組我還是會繼續找相關單位來看有沒有更好的經濟就是說因為新住民有很多委員非常關心因為現在新住民人數大概已經超過60萬了新住民家庭人數超過100萬所以我們才想說這個是非常的重要不管是新住民現在的很多的"},{"start":151.345,"end":165.896,"text":"這個就學教育等等醫療問題其實都急需一個專法來協助那其實我要跟部長跟這個長治報告其實在去年在我們的新住民基本法在修法的時候其實也是"},{"start":166.916,"end":193.754,"text":"這個內政委員會我們先提出我們的版本然後在去年的4月29號先出審然後6月12號排第二次審查後送出委員會朝野協商在6月28號行政院才這個很慢的就是好像有點被趕鴨子上架來把版本送進來那我們希望說最後在7月16號進行二三讀我們希望說這次行政院可以提早送進來版本不要這麼的趕"},{"start":195.335,"end":219.664,"text":"這要拜託一下再來我們請教一下剛剛很多委員有請教說過去你們開了很多次有關的籌備小組的會議剛剛也有特別討論說籌備小組的人數跟成員可是我想比較重要的點是討論的內容是什麼因為很多委員好像有所知現在好像因為討論的內容非常的複雜是不是可以請你簡單的"},{"start":221.224,"end":235.246,"text":"講一下到底討論的內容這麼十幾次的籌備小組的內容大概具體的內容是什麼遇到什麼樣的困難是不是可以請你簡單介紹一下那我想我們籌備小組去年成立之後目前我主持開過七次第一個是業務執掌"},{"start":236.167,"end":255.408,"text":"然後人員編制那甚至有辦公廳設還有未來的年度預算的編列那我們目前規劃的部分是四個組12顆總共會有將近100人的正式員額那這部分也都非常謝謝人事總署的幫忙那未來我們移民署的部分大概會將近快50個會移播到"},{"start":256.934,"end":280.469,"text":"新成立的這個新住民發展署那後續的部分其實我這邊其實比較簡單就是就業務執掌的內容的部分可能還需要規模跟經濟上的編制那這個部分當然我這邊也會請任總來給我們協助請問任總 請問蘇仁市長那剛剛所這個常次有講的人數的部分請問你們可以協助嗎現在有沒有什麼遇到什麼問題"},{"start":282.489,"end":301.561,"text":"事實上過去內政部跟我們大概開了22次會議我們人總有參加了有跨部會協調有三次他們會把他們碰到問題我們會請你來協助他們所以目前來講沒有很大的問題我們都有一些SOP在處理那沒有問題"},{"start":303.623,"end":317.239,"text":"那我再請教一下剛剛這個長茲有講到我們的業務量很多那就報告的裡面的內容寫說現在近有百項的業務那你剛剛有稍微提說總共分四個小組嘛會把這百項的業務來處理"},{"start":319.321,"end":348.585,"text":"那其實我們在這個我們的草案的版本裡面也有寫說我們所要的職長的業務範圍內那就請這個內政部的部分來去對一下說看我們現在草案的部分跟你們現在內容的板向的業務內容是不是可以相符如果有需要有看過了嗎有沒有都符合我簡單跟委員報告那我們是依照新住民基本法裡面的內容所以我們從那個新住民基本法裡面的業務內容的架構我們才會把它分成四個組12課那如果有細項的部分到時候我再會有提供給委員"},{"start":349.517,"end":374.342,"text":"好那最後我請教一下齁其實剛剛講的嘛預算的部分那我現在比較擔心的一個點齁跟常事請教了一下如果今年在上半年度我們當然希望當然在野黨當然希望說可以提早通過啦那剛剛當然部長是說希望到下個會期才通過我覺得大家還可以協商齁不過我覺得還是要尊重立法院我們照顧新住民權益的一個努力啊那我在想請教的是說那如果因為現在這個"},{"start":376.262,"end":390.969,"text":"這個年度其實預算已經在編列當中了那如果這個會期什麼時候通過法案的時候可以讓我們的新住民發展署在明年上路大概整個期程你可不可以稍微解釋一下我簡單跟委員報告因為我們現在目前"},{"start":392.79,"end":398.297,"text":"我們預計明年因為我們剛好正在籌備115年的預算我們也出估針對新住民發展署成立之後其實未來的年度規模大概會到7億多就是大概剛剛講的"},{"start":408.65,"end":430.336,"text":"人事的部分大概將近100多人那還有10個月聘僱那我們年度的預算會在7億那以今年來講在如果在今年如果要可以先成立之後可以去推動我們目前預估也會大概要今年的話剩下大概還要籌1億8那這個1億8的部分的新增的業務內容都是依照基本法的內容我們去做盤整的所以預算的部分今年度"},{"start":431.716,"end":455.996,"text":"有機會在明年今年會先編明年的預算嗎今年現在正在編明年的有編這個新住民發展署的預算因為現在在六月那再來的話就今年的部分如果有需要用的部分我們會用追加有機會要追加預算所以如果我們今年法令不管在上半年或下半年通過這個法令其實新住民發展署是有機會有預算可以在明年度使用今年的話就只能走追加 對"},{"start":456.756,"end":469.801,"text":"然後如果不夠的可以走追加的部分就對了好那最後一個問題喔時間的關係喔那我最後想請教我們新住民發展署的地點上次我詢問大概在新北或是台北那現在有比較具體的地方可以透露嗎"},{"start":470.923,"end":484.119,"text":"檢察官委員報告其實第一個要挑盡量離中央各部會比較近的那我們可能會在落腳或是台北跟新北我們都有在考慮幾個點所以還沒有完全確定都還沒確定希望說內政部可以繼續來努力樂觀其成 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 下一位我們請蘇巧慧"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時39分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，早。請內政部吳常次以及人事行政總處的蘇人事長。"],["主席：次長、蘇人事長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝常次。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["張委員智倫：人事長早。跟常次請教，剛剛我特別在提案說明有提到，立法院在113年7月16號三讀通過新住民基本法，總統也在8月12號公布，施行日期由行政院定之。其他在野黨的委員也有提到，目前施行日期還沒有正式的上路，也希望常次對這部分可以繼續加油，趕快讓行政院來公布，好不好？可以嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：好，謝謝。可以的，謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：在基本法第四條裡面有寫說，內政部應該設置一個專責的三級機關，即發展署，來統籌新住民相關政策以及服務事宜。在去年12月的時候，內政委員會在審內政部的預算，當時劉世芳部長說114年上半年本來就可以將組織法草案送到立法院審查；可是今年的5月14號，本席又在內政委員會請教劉世芳部長，他跟我說要改到下會期才可以送進來。我今天看到內政部報告是寫，這可能牽扯到的內容複雜，需要相當作業時間，我們先請教一下，常次覺得院版什麼時候可以送到立法院審查？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員的指教，在總統公布之後，我們也在去年底已經把相關的資料都先報給行政院，誠如我剛剛跟大家報告的，因為整個新住民基本法裡面的新住民，包括定義，包括事務，包括涉及到剛剛講的文化、教育、衛福及勞動，這些部分還需要再做跨機關業務的審查。我自己本身召開的籌備小組，我還是會繼續找相關單位看有沒有更好的精進。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝常次。有很多委員非常關心新住民，因為現在新住民人數大概已經超過60萬，新住民家庭人數超過100萬，所以我們才想這是非常的重要，不管是新住民很多的就學、教育、醫療等等問題，都急需一個專法來協助。我也要跟常次報告，去年新住民基本法在修法的時候，也是內政委員會先提出我們的版本，在去年4月29號先初審，6月12號排第二次審查後，送出委員會朝野協商，在6月28號行政院很慢地才把版本送進來，好像有點被趕鴨子上架，最後在7月16號進行二、三讀，我們希望這次行政院可以提早送版本進來，不要這麼趕，這要拜託一下。","再來，剛剛很多委員也請教，過去你們開了很多次籌備小組的會議，剛剛也有特別討論籌備小組人數跟成員，可是我想比較重要的點是討論的內容是什麼，據我所知，好像因為討論的內容非常地複雜，是不是可以請你簡單的講一下，到底十幾次籌備小組討論的內容，大概具體的內容是什麼？遇到什麼樣的困難，是不是可以請你簡單敘述一下？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。我們籌備小組去年成立之後，目前我主持開過7次，第一個是業務職掌，然後人員編制，甚至有辦公廳舍，還有未來的年度預算編列。我們目前規劃的部分是4個組、12科，總共會有將近100人的正式員額，這部分也非常謝謝人事總處的幫忙。未來移民署的部分大概將近快50個會移撥到新成立的新住民發展署，後續的部分，我這邊其實比較簡單講，就業務職掌內容的部分，可能還需要規模跟經濟上的編制，對這個部分，當然我也會請人總來給我們協助。"],["張委員智倫：請問人總蘇人事長，對剛剛常次所講的人數部分，你們可以協助嗎？現在有沒有遇到什麼問題？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，過去內政部跟我們totally大概開了22次會議，人總參加跨部會協調有3次，他們碰到的問題，我們會全力來協助他們。"],["張委員智倫：所以目前來講，沒有很大的問題，在人事上……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們都有一些SOP在處理，那沒有問題。"],["張委員智倫：好，OK，謝謝。我再請教一下，剛剛常次有講到業務量很多，就報告裡面的內容寫到，現在有近百項的業務，你剛剛有稍微提到總共分4個小組，會把這百項的業務進行處理。在草案的版本裡面也有寫職掌業務範圍，就請內政部去對一下，看我們現在草案的部分跟你們現在百項的業務內容是不是可以相符，有看過了嗎？有沒有都符合？"],["吳次長堂安：我簡單跟委員報告，我們是依照新住民基本法裡面的內容，從裡面的業務內容架構，我們才會把它分成4個組、12科，如果有細項的部分，到時候我會後提供給委員。"],["張委員智倫：好。最後我請教一下，剛剛講的預算部分，我現在比較擔心的一點跟常次請教，如果今年在上半年度，在野黨當然希望可以提早通過，但部長是說希望到下個會期才通過，大家還可以協商，不過我覺得還是要尊重立法院照顧新住民權益的努力。我想請教的是現在這個年度，預算已經在編列當中，如果這個會期什麼時候通過法案，可以讓新住民發展署在明年上路？你可不可以稍微解釋一下大概整個期程？"],["吳次長堂安：我簡單跟委員報告，我們的預算及員額，我先講明年，因為我們現在剛好正在籌編115年的預算，我們也初估針對新住民發展署成立之後，未來的年度規模大概會到七億多，誠如剛剛講的，人事的部分大概將近一百多人，還有10個約聘僱，我們年度的預算會在7億。"],["張委員智倫：七億多。"],["吳次長堂安：以今年來講，如果今年先成立之後可以推動，我們目前預估大概還要籌1億8,000萬，新增的業務內容都是依照基本法內容我們去做盤整。"],["張委員智倫：所以預算的部分，今年會先編明年的預算嗎？還是……"],["吳次長堂安：今年正在編明年的。"],["張委員智倫：有編新住民發展署的預算？"],["吳次長堂安：先編概算，因為現在是6月。再來的話，今年如果有需要用的部分，我們會用追加。"],["張委員智倫：有機會要追加預算。如果我們今年不管在上半年或下半年通過這個法令，其實新住民發展署是有機會、有預算可以在明年度使用？"],["吳次長堂安：今年的話就只能走追加，對。"],["張委員智倫：如果不夠的，可以走追加的部分就對了。好，最後一個問題，因為時間的關係，最後我想請教新住民發展署的地點，上次我詢問大概是在新北或是臺北，現在有比較具體的地方可以透露嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：簡單跟委員報告，第一個，要挑儘量離中央各部會比較近的地方，臺北跟新北我們都有在考慮幾個點。"],["張委員智倫：所以還沒有完全確定？"],["吳次長堂安：都還沒確定、都還沒確定。"],["張委員智倫：希望內政部繼續來努力，我們樂觀其成，謝謝。"],["吳次長堂安：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位我們請蘇巧慧委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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is a surprise是怎麼樣的一個狀況部長"},{"start":146.994,"end":168.649,"text":"因為那個短片我有看到 因為涉及到核彈 核武器但到底真實的情形如何後續的發展這個因為我想在會不會升高 甚至變成一個核武的戰爭這個確實是全世界都在關注"},{"start":169.768,"end":197.476,"text":"我們當然本身在這個地區除了我們我們是沒有正式邦交國家但也有代表處另外我們的能源尤其油氣經過這個中東地區也會影響我們的經濟這個都會連動所以不只是總統召開高層的會議行政院院長也責成各部會做好這個戰爭升高的時候我們的應變計畫"},{"start":199.634,"end":214.788,"text":"所以這部分的話我想外交部還是要隨時這個繃緊神經來注意這個整個中東局勢的這個發展那當然伊朗的態度當然是很重要當然美國希望就是說回到這個核談判的這個"},{"start":218.311,"end":230.737,"text":"這個重新來做一個談判那我不曉得因為每天的這個街道的這個新聞其實都會讓全球人民成全的這個人民會覺得說非常的這個驚恐因為畢竟這是有關於這個核彈"},{"start":233.278,"end":251.385,"text":"這個核戰爭會不會再會不會發生這件事情那尤其伊朗昨天做出了這個聲明甚至是讓大家半夜其實都睡得不是很好甚至有人說他可能半夜起來看看說到底伊朗想要做什麼樣的動作所以變成說外交部隨時都要保持這個警戒那再來還有一點就是也是這個國人跟"},{"start":254.246,"end":282.923,"text":"尤其是一些学生跟家长非常重视的对于美国留学签证的面谈当然刚刚也有委员在关心这一题我想请教到目前为止我们有多少学生会因为川普的政策受到很大的影响尤其川普对于哈佛大学是采取一连串的限制的措施所以我想了解的就是说针对哈佛大学这个部分多少学生会因为川普政策受到影响"},{"start":284.644,"end":310.739,"text":"哈佛現在我們台灣的留學生有50多位那今年申請到的也大概是這個數字我請我們北美司也許進一步提供比較更新的資料那因為它當時有一個月的寬限期現在也快到了那有什麼樣的變化因為這事關國人的尤其留學生的權益我請我們北美司長來跟委員再報告詳細一點因為我大概知道的是一個比較就是整體的情形但是個別的細節"},{"start":313.926,"end":339.759,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們目前在哈佛的學生呃陳如剛剛部長提到的有五十多位那至於說今年的新生的話我們的了解是呃應該是有五十三位新生那另外也還有呃就是幾位是呃研究的人員所以加起來大概是七十位上下那呃現在今天早上接到的資訊就是關於這個簽證的面談受理的部分"},{"start":340.881,"end":342.304,"text":"就是AIT這邊應該蠻快的"},{"start":344.212,"end":367.229,"text":"就可以針對面談的部分繼續接受這個受理那應該他們會在這一兩天之內就能夠把新的這個process提供出來這是針對簽證受理的部分那至於說哈佛這邊的情況的話我們的駐波士頓辦事處也持續的在跟校方保持聯繫那目前他們稍微卡到的地方是在針對這個學生申請簽證的這一塊"},{"start":371.372,"end":397.417,"text":"所謂牽扯到學生簽證這塊可以說清楚一點嗎因為很多家長其實是人心惶惶的辦公室也會接到一些詢問所以這個部分的話可以說明的清楚一點嗎針對學生簽證的部分就是國務院這邊的措施其實是一個全球性的措施那今天早上我們也有看到美國有一些媒體已經報導了就是國務院會再重新的受理這個簽證面談的申請"},{"start":400.518,"end":422.462,"text":"那這個我們也已經跟AIT這邊有稍微詢問過他們現在呢就是只要收到新的這個announcement之後他們就會在他們的網站上面做說明所以我們的國人要申請這個去美國的學生簽證的部分應該是在近期之內就可以再恢復申請和受理所以這邊說其實之後"},{"start":425.904,"end":443.606,"text":"因為學生還是想說那以後我申請有沒有這個機會會不會被不受理或者是被拒絕所以市長您剛才講的意思就是說即使這個措施這個限制措施到後面其實不會受到影響是不是對於學生的這個申請"},{"start":445.12,"end":471.429,"text":"针对这个签证面谈这部分是不会受影响的吗我们的理解是AIT应该很快就会再再度的恢复接受签证的申请的受理那他们也会就是在完全恢复这个签证申请的受理之后他们也会加快脚步来处理我们学生的申请那但是具体的细节的话就是还是需要由AIT这边"},{"start":472.109,"end":489.141,"text":"來做正式的宣布那我們的理解是AIT應該蠻快的在一兩天之內就會有具體的新的聲明出來所以也就是說學生台灣的孩子放心您就去申請"},{"start":489.861,"end":504.026,"text":"AIT這邊會全力的協助我們會這個政策其實會回復到之前的那個面談的這個作業會恢復所以這個不用擔心是這樣子的意思嗎簡單說我們經常的理解是OK好我稍微補充說明"},{"start":505.126,"end":527.967,"text":"就是本來申請已經受理的都在辦理中那只是面試的時間後來就停了那現在連面試的時間原來已經申請已經排的面試時間的也會進行了都有進行完相當多那現在就是申請完之後那以之後要申請的現在還沒有排面試的那一部分這幾天AIT表示他們會"},{"start":529.248,"end":542.498,"text":"就是公布如何排面試一旦面試時間定了大家都比較安心因為買機票啦等等那比較受影響是暑期班因為現在六月下旬了嘛至於說正式的學期啊因為時間還有我想那個衝擊會相對比較小"},{"start":545.64,"end":560.57,"text":"所以因為這個時間的關係當然孩子他當然很擔心希望說有一個明確的答案所以我在想說如果說外交部能夠有一個明確的一個回覆的話可以公開的告訴大家是我們是每個人我們都是"},{"start":561.09,"end":569.299,"text":"根據他個人 我們也都會去關注他持續申請的狀況也跟AIT 衛星本身跟古力園處長已經不斷地都有在提洽這個請委員方 我們會全力來維護跟爭取國人 尤其是留學生的權益OK 好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時32分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。今天多位委員，包括俊宇委員和定宇委員都關心在以色列和伊朗地區的國人安全，尤其是在伊朗，之前我們知道有9位國人還在伊朗，剛剛很欣慰地聽到他們已經陸陸續續撤出了。尤其我看到歐洲各國已經開始陸續撤僑，川普也呼籲國人全面撤離德黑蘭，所以我們也很擔心這9位國人的安全，當然還有3位現在在伊朗，我們也很希望外交部這邊、外館這邊全力協助他們安全離開德黑蘭、離開伊朗。","再來，畢竟在以色列還有兩百多位我國的僑胞在那裡，我們所看到，像川普之前在第一時間的時候，他有提到以色列的軍事行動是跟美國沒有關係，他並沒有介入，可是我發現這兩天他的言論稍微有做了轉變。他說他們可能還是會參戰，如果美國真的參戰的話，對整個中東局勢目前的處境會不會有更高的風險？可能會更加的嚴峻、可能有哪些地方會受到影響？"],["林部長佳龍：各種可能的情境，我們都有做分析，也做好因應，因為美國是不是參戰或者是伊朗的反應，這當然都會升高衝突，從區域的甚至變成全球性的衝突，這不只是地緣政治，對於全球的經濟也會有很大的影響。所以我們政府，包括總統，還有行政院長都有召開，包括國安高層會議，今天行政院會卓院長也有所指示，就是有關於因應戰局變化。"],["羅委員美玲：對中東這個部分，其實我們還是會有一些評估跟推斷，因為畢竟我們在中東地區的僑胞其實也不少，所以對於他們的安全，我想都是國人最重視的。再來，還有一點，昨天晚上在新聞播出的時候，突然間看到一個跑馬燈，提到伊朗可能會讓全世界有一個surprise，是怎樣的一個狀況？部長，你昨天有看到嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：那個短片我有看到，因為涉及到核彈、核武器，到底真實的情形如何以及後續的發展，我想會不會升高，甚至變成一個核武的戰爭，這個確實是全世界都在關注，我們本身在這個地區，我們是沒有正式邦交國家，但也有代表處，另外我們的能源，尤其油、氣，經過中東地區，也會影響我們的經濟，這個都會連動，所以不只是總統召開高層的會議，在行政院，院長也責成各部會做好戰爭升高的時候我們的應變計畫。"],["羅委員美玲：是，所以這部分的話，我想外交部還是要隨時繃緊神經來注意整個中東局勢的發展，當然伊朗的態度是很重要，美國希望就是重新來做一個核談判，我不曉得，因為每天接到的新聞其實都會讓全球的人民覺得非常驚恐，畢竟這是有關於核彈、核戰爭會不會發生這件事情，尤其伊朗昨天做出了聲明，甚至是讓大家半夜其實都睡得不是很好，甚至有人他可能半夜起來看看到底伊朗想要做什麼樣的動作，所以變成外交部隨時都要保持警戒。","再來還有一點，也是國人尤其是一些學生跟家長非常重視的，就是對於美國留學簽證的面談，當然剛剛也有委員在關心這一題，我想請教，到目前為止，我們有多少學生會因為川普的政策而受到很大的影響，尤其川普對於哈佛大學是採取一連串限制的措施，所以我想了解針對哈佛大學這個部分，到底多少學生會因為川普政策受到影響？"],["林部長佳龍：現在我們臺灣留學生在哈佛的有五十多位，今年申請到的也大概是這個數字，我請我們北美司也許進一步提供比較更新的資料，因為他當時有一個月的寬限期，現在也快到了，有什麼樣的變化，因為這事關國人尤其是留學生的權益，我請我們北美司長來跟委員再報告詳細一點，因為我大概知道的是一個比較整體的情形，但是個別的細節請司長報告。"],["王司長良玉：跟委員報告，我們目前在哈佛的學生，誠如剛剛部長提到的有五十多位，至於今年的新生，我們的了解應該是有53位新生，另外也還有幾位是研究的人員，所以加起來大概是70位上下，今天早上接到的資訊，關於簽證面談受理的部分，AIT這邊應該滿快的就可以針對面談的部分繼續接受受理，應該他們會在這一、兩天之內，就能夠把新的process提供出來，這是針對簽證受理的部分，至於哈佛這邊的情況，我們駐波斯頓辦事處也持續在跟校方保持聯繫，目前他們稍微卡到的地方是針對學生申請簽證的這一塊。"],["羅委員美玲：所謂牽扯到學生簽證這一塊，可以說清楚一點嗎？因為現在很多家長其實是人心惶惶的，辦公室也會接到一些詢問，所以這個部分可以說明得清楚一點嗎？"],["王司長良玉：針對學生簽證的部分，就是國務院這邊的措施其實是一個全球性的措施，今天早上我們也有看到美國有一些媒體已經報導了，就是國務院會再重新受理簽證面談的申請，這個我們也已經跟AIT這邊有稍微詢問過，他們現在只要收到新的announcement之後，他們就會在他們的網站上面做說明，所以我們的國人要申請去美國的學生簽證這部分，應該是在近期之內就可以再恢復申請和受理。"],["羅委員美玲：因為學生還是在想以後他申請有沒有這個機會被不受理或是被拒絕，所以司長剛才講的意思就是，其實這個限制措施到後面不會受到影響，是不是？對於學生申請簽證面談這部分是不會受影響的？"],["王司長良玉：針對面談的申請，我們的理解是AIT應該很快就會再度恢復接受簽證申請的受理，他們在完全恢復簽證申請的受理之後，也會加快腳步來處理我們學生的申請，但是具體細節，還是需要由AIT這邊來做正式的宣布，我們的理解是AIT應該滿快的在一、兩天之內，就會有具體新的聲明出來，我們的理解是這樣子。"],["羅委員美玲：所以也就是臺灣的孩子放心，你就去申請，AIT這邊會全力的協助，這個政策其實會回復，之前面談的作業會恢復，所以這個不用擔心，是這樣子的意思嗎？簡單說。"],["王司長良玉：我們今天早上的理解，是。"],["林部長佳龍：我稍微補充說明，就是本來申請已經受理的都在辦理中，只是面試的時間後來就停了，現在連面試的時間，原來已經申請、已經排了面試時間的，也會進行了，都有進行完相當多了，現在就是申請完之後……"],["羅委員美玲：之後要申請的臺灣學生呢？"],["林部長佳龍：現在還沒有排面試的那一部分，這幾天AIT表示他們會公布如何排面試，一旦面試時間訂了，大家都會比較安心，因為買機票等等，比較受影響是暑期班，因為現在6月下旬了；至於正式的學期，因為時間還有，我想衝擊會相對比較小。"],["羅委員美玲：因為時間的關係，孩子當然會很擔心，希望有一個明確的答案，所以我在想如果外交部能夠有一個明確的回復，可以公開的告訴大家。"],["林部長佳龍：是，每一個人，我們都是根據他個人，我們也都會去關注他持續申請的狀況，我本身也已經跟AIT谷立言處長不斷的都在提洽，這個請委員放心，我們會全力來維護跟爭取國人尤其是留學生的權益。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。以上，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：我們下面請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73ab0734abd4b6c2ceeab13042bab466e3907d28bbaa3ae02350347cd0a995e7775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:27:46 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九個月通不過到底是什麼原因 可不可以告訴我們好 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七家都不過到現在都不過那個 請財政部再幫忙說明一下菸酒公司送多久啦"},{"start":508.542,"end":535.975,"text":"菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了應該有超過一年以上了超過一年以上到底多久啊實際的時間因為他們你可不可以同意我我跟你講我現在跟你同意你們審查官民監控署要照程序來然後叫你補件你們的菸酒公司補件審查數據是這樣子我問一個問題再過半年不夠菸酒公司董事長下台要不要"},{"start":539.025,"end":559.827,"text":"健康風險評估上限一年多審不完 做不出來啊是因為普見什麼這些資料不齊備那一天九公司鮮有疏失嘛我也沒有很嚴苛 你回去跟他提案講再過半年審不過 他辭職要不要 要不要立這個軍令狀"},{"start":561.483,"end":578.354,"text":"我想這個部分他也一直都非常努力的對於我們衛福部相關的意見他們也都在調整那我覺得我們所知是113年2月送件的那113年2月送件到現在一年多啊那中間補件過幾次啊 開過幾次啊你跟他講 他越慢我們中華民國就損失更多的錢啊"},{"start":586.65,"end":615.98,"text":"因為第一個 煙酒公司做這個焦熱煙它可以賺錢第二個 合法的管道真的符合了之後這些非法的自然就會減少很多那我們的煙稅 煙捐都可以 都收得到這對社會有很多的好處那再加上它是職責所在煙酒公司董事長職責所在再半年不過 我會請它下台這樣好不好他已經非常努力在做了 是"},{"start":616.886,"end":619.316,"text":"非常濃烈跟社會大眾講什麼人一定不會過啊"},{"start":621.238,"end":649.938,"text":"你是講一句我非常努力有衛福部來說明說明 請說明一下跟委員報告 Angel公司在113年2月左右送件那中間經過了審查會以後推了5次的件那最後一次是在今年的4月底退還給財政部在他被退了5次件5次的理由都不一樣嗎還是每一次都找不同的理由你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚叫他一次補嗎"},{"start":650.879,"end":670.368,"text":"我們都很明確的告訴他需要準備哪一些文件聽到沒有 很明確告訴他所以如果再補不來 再通不過這個研究公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的啦坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐然後損失你研究公司該賺的錢我講的有沒有道理"},{"start":673.857,"end":687.229,"text":"回去想想看那你問我希望你們國民健康署這個審查的過程喔細節給人家公佈對社會招公信可以嗎我們選來以後該公佈的一定會公佈而且一定會讓社會明瞭"},{"start":688.2,"end":708.781,"text":"什麼理由 要補什麼件 也讓人家知道嘛專家都會知道你要求的補件有沒有道理不是啊 我說對下派大眾說明我們立法委員不知道啊不然你把各公司的補件的理由通通算入份報告到我們的辦公室來啊算到財政委員會來啊讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊"},{"start":710.779,"end":733.156,"text":"好不好主席我要求他們這個官民監督署審查的過程中要求補正的資料跟開會的次數補正的內容送到財政委員會來給每一位委員一份報告我們會依政府資訊公開法相關的資訊送給財政委員會對啦你就送給本委員會啦好不好可以公開的可以送的我們都一定會送"},{"start":734.176,"end":746.323,"text":"所以有一些不能公開不能送的你那些什麼地方什麼原因不能公開不能送你要住民喔讓我們能夠了解喔不然我們還不知道你審查為什麼可以審查九計咧從法律通過到現在九計啊這不是三計不是四計啊"},{"start":755.01,"end":772.118,"text":"我們這個非常的注重所以我們一直瞭解到他整個說非常注重所以非常嚴苛所以都通不過所以大概我們依法來盡量來公告相關的資訊部長不要只站在自己的本位啦我為什麼會先問財政部長國家每天在損失錢啊好 謝謝來接下來我們請賴昭偉來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時27分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，現在菸的稅跟捐的比例是怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於菸稅和菸捐的比例，我請同仁查一下，待會再跟委員報告。"],["吳委員秉叡：當初菸害防制法112年3月修正的時候，你們有經過試算嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，他們有……等一下……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，請署長幫忙回答。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是。"],["宋署長秀玲：不好意思，委員可不可以麻煩……"],["莊部長翠雲：就是菸捐跟菸稅的比例。"],["吳委員秉叡：菸捐跟菸稅的比例，以及112年3月菸害防制法修正的時候，你們有沒有估算過每一年收到菸捐跟菸稅的金額？"],["宋署長秀玲：是，我現在手上資料，113年度菸捐是264.21億，這個不是賦稅，菸稅的部分是155.88億。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以大概捐是稅的一倍？"],["宋署長秀玲：差不多，大概多100億。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是這樣的話，這幾年加熱菸的部分，漏掉了多少稅、漏掉了多少捐？"],["宋署長秀玲：因為加熱菸現在還沒有經過衛福部許可，所以我們沒有辦法……"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，所以我才問你，因為這幾年沒有通過許可，依據你們的估算，捐跟稅各少了多少？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，這個蠻難估算的，因為根據衛福部的說法，其實這是有替代效果，簡單講，如果沒有加熱菸可抽，他會抽其他的菸，所以……"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說，市面上很多人都在抽加熱菸，立法委員你去抓，院會議場旁邊，兩黨、三黨全部都在吸加熱菸，這是我親眼所見，我在這邊作證，包括民進黨、國民黨跟民眾黨，在抽菸的立法委員裡面大多數都是吸加熱菸，所以我就問你，你們當初有沒有做稅式評估？如果你們有評估，就會知道這部分你們原來估計大概是多少，後來收到多少，相減就可以評估出大概漏掉多少。"],["宋署長秀玲：跟委員報告，因為菸吸食量的減少，有人是認為菸稅跟菸捐多課了，影響了消費，因為現在沒有辦法獨立判定菸變少是什麼原因，這是我們困難的地方，但是對於加熱菸的部分，現在我們也是在等，如果許可了，我們一定會去課徵。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請回座，請衛福部邱部長。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，112年3月22號菸害防制法修正施行時，當時你也是衛環委員會委員……"],["邱部長泰源：是，是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們通過這個法很不容易，但是你們後面加了一個要健康風險評估，當然我們也贊成，可是健康風險評估請問什麼時候開始送件？到現在將近兩年半了，超過9個季，還沒有任何一家通過，而健康風險評估沒有通過的原因，是因為評估得很嚴格，實質上雖然立法院通過法案，但你們的評估委員會在把關、在限縮？還是沒有人送件？還是送件的這些廠商都是「阿里不達」、亂七八糟，包括菸酒公司，9個季都通不過？到底是什麼原因，可不可以告訴我們？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員，菸害防制法裡面就有健康風險評估審查辦法，其實是有7家申請，6家……"],["吳委員秉叡：什麼時候開始申請？"],["邱部長泰源：時程部分等一下請吳署長跟委員報告，因為這涉及人民權益跟公眾健康，所以我們是依照審查辦法，循著審查程序組成審查會，秉持科學實證、專業及保護公眾健康之最高目標，謹慎的依程序在辦理，詳細的過程我請吳署長跟委員報告。"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，第一家送審是在當年112年的6月底。"],["吳委員秉叡：到現在兩年了都審不過？"],["吳署長昭軍：因為審查過程中，有時候會因為委員看到業者送出來的資料有一些不完整或缺漏，會要求業者再重新送件，而每一家業者重新補正資料時，各家都不一樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：你能不能公布審查的流程細節？我為什麼問這個問題？因為越慢通過，就會漏掉更多的稅跟捐，兩年多來，加熱菸因為你們的審查一直遲遲不通過，使得國庫應該收到的稅及應該收到的菸捐，到現在都收不到，雖然你們現在又抓私菸又罰款，但其實跟菸稅、菸捐的收入還是不成比例，你知道每一年國家因為這樣漏掉多少錢嗎？","審查是這樣子啦！如果把它訂得無比嚴苛，那麼當初立法院，包括部長在衛環委員會、包括本院的院會，為什麼要通過加熱菸經過健康風險評估之後就可以審查通過的規定？你等於是用健康風險評估把這個東西掐死了嘛！如果你們審查是用這樣的態度，你知道現在社會上對於這個責任是爭議不休嗎？有人認為是捲菸業者在中間作梗，讓加熱菸不能夠合法上市，這樣捲菸就可以繼續占有市場；外面各種揣測、陰謀論一大堆，我是覺得這部分有賴衛福部公布審查的相關經過及細節還有欠缺什麼東西等等，而不是讓人家……甚至還有人用政治陰謀論來說，是因為上層反對，所以掛一個審查在那邊，事實上就是不給過；也有人從經濟角度說，認為是捲菸業者為了私利希望不要通過，這樣他就可以更長久的占有市場。你知道嗎？中華民國政府所擁有的菸酒公司早就投資加熱菸設備了，錢都花了，等著在核可之後能夠製造、販賣，結果你把合法的管道用這樣的方式縮減，那就是助長非法。","再來，第二個問題，關於現在已經在吸加熱菸的人，有那麼多立法委員你去抓嘛！你每天院會時就到外面巡就好了，我跟你講，一抓就一大把，我是不抽菸的，但在立法院眼看著這麼多同仁違法，然後你們的審查卻是9季都沒有進度，你看第一家送件的到現在兩年了，審一個健康風險評估要兩年，7家申請7家到現在都不過，請財政部再幫忙說明一下，菸酒公司送件送多久了？"],["莊部長翠雲：菸酒公司送件大概已經有超過一年了，應該有超過一年以上。"],["吳委員秉叡：超過一年以上，到底是多久啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：實際的時間，因為他們……"],["吳委員秉叡：你可不可以同意我……"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，我現在請你同意，審查時國民健康署都說要照程序來，然後叫你們菸酒公司補件、審查的速度是這樣，如果再過半年還不通過，菸酒公司董事長下臺，要不要？健康風險評估送件一年多審不完、做不出來，如果是因為補件的這些資料不齊備，菸酒公司顯有疏失，那我也沒有很嚴苛，請你回去跟湯期安講，再過半年審不過，他辭職，要不要？要不要立這個軍令狀？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，他也一直都非常努力，對於衛福部相關意見他們也都有在調整，據我所知，是113年2月送件的。"],["吳委員秉叡：113年2月送件，到現在也一年多了，中間補件過幾次？委員會開過幾次會？你跟他講，他越慢，我們中華民國就損失更多的錢，因為第一個，菸酒公司做加熱菸可以賺錢；第二個，合法的管道符合了之後，一些非法的自然就會減少很多，那麼菸稅、菸捐就都可以收得到，對社會也有很多好處，再加上這是菸酒公司董事長的職責所在，再半年不過，我會請他下臺，這樣好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：他已經非常努力在做了。"],["吳委員秉叡：非常努力要跟社會大眾講什麼一定不會過啊！你只講了一句「我非常努力」……"],["莊部長翠雲：這要由衛福部來說明。"],["邱部長泰源：來，請說明一下流程跟……"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，菸酒公司在113年2月左右送件，中間經過審查會以後退了5次的件，最後一次是在今年4月底，退還給財政部再……"],["吳委員秉叡：被退了5次件，5次的理由都不一樣嗎？還是每一次都找不同的理由？你不能夠一次把理由跟他講清楚，叫他一次補嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們都很明確地告訴他需要準備哪些文件。"],["吳委員秉叡：聽到沒有？有很明確告訴他，所以如果再補不來、再通不過，這個菸酒公司的董事長真的沒有什麼好做的了。坐在那個地方讓中華民國每天在損失稅跟捐，然後損失你菸酒公司該賺的錢，我講的有沒有道理？請回去想想看。我希望你們國民健康署對於審查的過程，要把細節給人家公布，對社會以昭公信，可以嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們審核以後，該公布的一定會公布，而且一定會讓社會明瞭。"],["吳委員秉叡：什麼理由、要補什麼件也讓人家知道嘛！讓專家知道你要求的補件有沒有道理嘛！"],["吳署長昭軍：要求的理由都會跟業者說明清楚。"],["吳委員秉叡：不是啦！我是說對社會大眾說明，我們立法委員不知道啊！不然你把各公司補件的理由統統送一份報告到我們辦公室來啊！送到財政委員會來啊！讓我們知道你這個補件到底有沒有道理啊！好不好？","主席，我要求他們國民健康署要把在審查的過程中要求補件的資料跟開會的次數、補件的內容送到財政委員會來，給每一位委員一份報告。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會依政府資訊公開法把相關的資訊送給委員。"],["主席：對，你就送給本委員會，好不好？"],["吳署長昭軍：可以公開的、可以送的，我們都一定會送。"],["主席：好啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：所以是有一些不能公開、不能送的？那些什麼地方、什麼原因不能公開、不能送的，你要註明讓我們能夠瞭解，不然我們不知道你審查為什麼會審查到9季？從法律通過到現在都9季了，還不是3季、不是4季啊！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實我們這個是非常注重，所以我們一直瞭解到他整個……"],["吳委員秉叡：非常注意所以就非常嚴苛，也通不過？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會依法儘量公告相關的資訊。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，不要只站在自己的本位。"],["邱部長泰源：一定。"],["吳委員秉叡：我為什麼會先問財政部長？國家每天在損失錢啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請賴召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},{"id":"162691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a739bfd73d47f7a6d6aeab13042bab466e3907d28bbaa3ae02306b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:15:05 - 09:27:40","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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部長我請教有媒體報導認為如果伊朗封鎖這個荷莫茲海峽限制石油的運輸將促使油價大幅度的上漲更進一步來推高通貨對原本已經受到美國總統川普關稅戰衝擊的國家"},{"start":457.685,"end":460.453,"text":"將造成更大的經濟壓力那美國關稅戰的談判有經濟學者認為啊"},{"start":464.557,"end":489.864,"text":"英國關稅大概就落在10%預料是地板至於美國目前對中國大陸課成30%全面性的關稅則是天花板意味著未來各國的關稅談判大概都會在10%到30%裡面來進行那台積電已經赴美投資政府也打算採購阿拉斯加的這個"},{"start":491.809,"end":497.191,"text":"那我請問部長目前台美關稅談判到底有沒有什麼進展"},{"start":516.972,"end":540.237,"text":"台美關稅談判目前是由副院長領軍還有行政院OTN他們在持續而且密集的相互溝通那這個部分的也會爭取國內國家以及產業的一個最大利益那目前來說因為雙方的默契並不便於對外說明那在適當時機可以說的時候一定會對外說明什麼都是保密啦婉正你這個到最後一歡出來一歡兩對也不要賠了忽了又責兵那個部長是"},{"start":544.838,"end":567.048,"text":"茶集私菸有賴第一線的同仁積極來茶集以維護國人的健康防止逃漏稅捐在今年2月由財政部阮市長來主持召開114年度的私劣菸 菸酒的茶集會報會議中提到113年在茶集同仁通力合作下"},{"start":567.768,"end":594.337,"text":"一共查獲涉嫌違反菸酒管理法菸類的數量達到一千一百二十萬餘包但近日爆出不肖的海巡人員利用人頭來乍領查集失菸的獎金讓國人感到非常的失望也對過去查集失菸的績效打了一個大大的問號"},{"start":595.888,"end":620.403,"text":"那國人對茶旗失焉的數量也產生質疑那我請問部長113年度失焉茶旗數字是否有被動手腳的可能性你認為有沒有失焉的茶器基本上各個茶器機關都會到茶器現場去先看有沒有違法的情勢然後要清點茶貨的數量並且做成記錄那絕大部分的"},{"start":621.25,"end":630.235,"text":"絕大部分的查緝機關以及查緝人員一定是合法合規的在做那極少數的害群之馬那是不應該的那我們這個部分當然不會司法一定會進行調查以及不會寬容"},{"start":636.698,"end":638.319,"text":"那在制度面的部分呢我們財政部呢國庫署也會在下個禮拜就會邀請各相關機關再來做精進來防度這樣的一個不應該一個情勢發生但是絕大部分的查緝人員跟查緝機關都是依法依規在做的"},{"start":654.28,"end":672.734,"text":"最後一個議題 華務部廉政署為防範政府採購過程中潛藏的這些廉政風險今年辦理高風險政府採購案件全國性專案集合依循行政院及所屬機關使用深層式的AI參考指引"},{"start":675.796,"end":702.034,"text":"這個深層式的AI進行跨機關資料庫的大數據分析本席認為值得政府其他機關來學習那針對此次海巡失焉人頭案媒體報導人頭多為無業或低收入戶導致大筆罰款沒有辦法執行因為罰款都是呆帳不斷的增高同一個人的人頭負責重複出現"},{"start":705.336,"end":729.657,"text":"也不繳罰款啊 因為他沒有錢怎麼繳那本市希望說未來查集私菸相關單位導入AI大數據分析機制啊在早期揪出漏洞改善政府部門啊 內部監控的這些機制打擊不法那請問財政部 法務部 海巡署你們有什麼看法"},{"start":732.198,"end":747.245,"text":"委員這個建議也就運用AI來做一個檢查我覺得我們可以在討論的時候把它納入好啦我希望說你們要積極而且要用科技的方式運用大數據跟科技的方式謝謝委員指教謝謝好 下一位請吳秉立委員資訊請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":75,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時15分）謝謝主席。是不是請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["林委員德福：莊部長你好。我請教，因為賴總統日前接見美國聯邦眾議員、國會台灣聯線共同主席貝拉訪問團的時刻提到，期待解決臺美雙重課稅法案能夠在今年順利完成立法，臺美雙重課稅法案雖然在美國眾議院有通過，但是還必須面對兩個關卡，就是參議院的表決通過並經美國總統的簽署。我請問莊部長，臺美雙重課稅法案你認為最快何時在美國參議院進行處理，你認為呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，關於臺美避免雙重課稅協定的案子，謝謝委員的關心，您的關心也可以表達國內各界對這個法案的期盼，除了眾議院在1月15號通過之外，參議院同時也在1月23號提出內容一致的一個法案，所以基本上，這個法案是美國國會跨黨派的支持，當然目前美國國會參議院還在處理他們其他的法案，但是本部、外交部還有駐美代表處都維持一個推案的動能，以及就如同您剛剛所講的，不管總統也好、副總統也好，在接見美國相關團體的時候都會表達這樣的意願，以及美台商業協會還有台灣美國商會等等，都在努力地促進這個案子。"],["林委員德福：你認為在今年年底……有沒有信心在年底，美國能夠完成立法程序？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們當然是希望越快越好，可以避免雙方跨境投資者課稅的重複課徵，但是有關期程的部分不是我方所能夠掌握、控制的，不過我們會努力地進行推案的相關動作，都會看各個方面。委員的質詢事實上也是表達了國內的一些期盼、要求。"],["林委員德福：我希望越快越好。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員德福：部長，因為日前發布我國5月出口金額首度突破500億美元，創下517.4億美元的新高，跟去年同期增加38.6%，增加的幅度驚人，外界認為主要的原因是因為川普關稅戰暫緩90天的緣故，強勁的拉貨效應帶動大幅出口，今年1到5月我國對美貿易順差已經達到418億美元，估計全年將會超過1,000億美元。我請問部長，對此現象你有何解讀？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，確實5月份的出口達到517億美元，是創歷年來的一個新高，之前從來沒有超過500億美元；而1到5月份累計出口也達到2,300億，跟去年同期比是成長24%。這個部分，當然有我們的人工智慧創新科技的商機持續地擴展在國際間；第二個，當然還有一部分的科技新品上市，要準備再做一些推……"],["林委員德福：你認為這是不是拉貨效應？關稅的關係？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，美國關稅措施延緩90天實施，那麼客戶端把需求提早提出來，也加大了拉貨的力道，這個確實是有這樣的一個因素在裡面。"],["林委員德福：好，那是短暫的。那我請問對此現象的解讀，你認為對臺美關稅談判將來會不會帶來不利的影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：臺美關稅談判目前由行政院的OTN（行政院經貿談判辦公室）持續和美方密切以及積極進行相關的溝通，也會爭取國家以及產業的一個最大利益。"],["林委員德福：但是我從各方面去觀察，其實你看我們鄰近的國家，包括日本、韓國，甚至於對岸，他們都很硬，就是跟美國在談關稅的時候很硬，但是我們就是剛好對倒、相反，不要說到時候是因為我們這幾個月出超而且是大幅度的增長，導致未來有很不好的一個結果。我們是期待能夠跟其他的國家相比，現在差不多10%到30%，當然10%以下是最好啦！","我再請教部長，以色列跟伊朗之間的衝突沒有降溫的跡象，美國總統川普也對外表示，開始考慮對伊朗來發動攻擊，多數專家認為短期內亞洲整體股市將會走跌，中東戰爭將衝擊全球的原物料，包括能源、運輸以及全球的供應鏈，油價與黃金價格上漲，若中東供油長期受阻，通膨將持續升溫。部長，今年3月行政院物價穩定小組宣布進口大宗物資免稅或減稅的期限到9月底。請問部長，如果美國對伊朗進一步採取攻擊，中東衝突擴大，行政院物價穩定小組與財政部是否會緊急來調整整個大宗物資降稅相關的措施，以來穩定我們國內的物價，會不會？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，中東情勢的緊張當然會影響到能源市場一些價格的波動以及其他供應鏈的一些影響。至於有關物價的情況，我們在行政院物價穩定小組裡面已經決議，相關大宗物資的營業稅、關稅，還有貨物稅都調降減免到9月底，這個期間穩定物價小組也會持續關注國內物價的變動情形，如果有需要的話，當然還是可以往後延。"],["林委員德福：對啊，你要事前有一些必要措施來杜絕防範，不然到時候要是整個衝擊擴大，當然對整個國內影響會非常嚴重。","部長，我請教，有媒體報導認為如果伊朗封鎖荷莫茲海峽、限制石油的運輸將促使油價大幅度上漲，更進一步來推高通膨，對原本已經受到美國總統川普關稅戰衝擊的國家將造成更大的經濟壓力。美國關稅戰的談判有經濟學者認為英國關稅大概就落在10%，預料是地板價；至於美國目前對中國大陸課徵30%全面性的關稅，則是天花板，意味著未來各國的關稅談判，大概都會在10%到30%裡面來進行。台積電已經赴美投資，政府也打算採購阿拉斯加的氣源，並加大軍購的預算，如果臺美關稅談判結果最後跑去天花板，或比日本、南韓關稅更高，本席認為那是賠了夫人又折兵。我請問部長，目前臺美關稅談判到底有沒有什麼進展？"],["莊部長翠雲：臺美關稅談判目前是由副院長領軍，還有行政院OTN在持續而且密集地相互溝通，這個部分也會爭取國家以及產業的一個最大利益。目前來說，因為雙方的默契並不便於對外說明，在適當時機可以說的時候一定會說明……"],["林委員德福：什麼都是保密啦，反正到最後一翻兩瞪眼，不要賠了夫人又折兵。","部長，查緝私菸有賴第一線同仁積極來查緝，以維護國人的健康，防止逃漏稅捐。在今年2月由財政部阮次長主持召開114年度的私劣菸酒查緝會報，會議中提到113年在查緝同仁通力合作下，一共查獲涉嫌違反菸酒管理法菸類數量1,120萬餘包，但近日爆出不肖的海巡人員利用人頭來詐領查緝私菸的獎金，讓國人感到非常失望，也對過去查緝私菸的績效打了一個大大的問號，國人對查緝私菸的數量也產生質疑。我請問部長，113年度私菸查緝數字是否有被動手腳的可能性？你認為有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於私菸的查緝，基本上各個查緝機關都會到查緝現場先去看有沒有違法的情事，然後要清點查獲的數量，並且做成紀錄。絕大部分的查緝機關以及查緝人員一定是合法合規在做，極少數的害群之馬那是不應該的，這個部分當然司法一定會進行調查以及不會寬容。","在制度面的部分，財政部國庫署也會在下個禮拜邀集各相關機關再來做精進，來防杜不應該的情事發生，但是絕大部分的查緝人員跟查緝機關都是依法依規在做的。"],["林委員德福：好，最後一個議題，法務部廉政署為防範政府採購過程中潛藏的廉政風險，今年辦理高風險政府採購案件全國性專案稽核，依循行政院及所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引，運用生成式AI進行跨機關資料庫的大數據分析，本席認為值得政府其他機關來學習。","針對此次海巡私菸人頭案，媒體報導人頭多為無業或低收入戶，導致大筆罰款沒有辦法執行，罰款都是呆帳且不斷地增高，同一個負責人頭重複出現，而且也不繳罰款，因為他沒有錢怎麼繳？本席希望未來查緝私菸相關單位導入AI大數據分析機制，在早期揪出漏洞，改善政府部門內部監控的機制，打擊不法。請問財政部、法務部、海巡署，你們有什麼看法？"],["主席：就簡短，好不好？簡短。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員這個建議，也就運用AI來做檢查，我們可以在討論的時候把它納入。"],["林委員德福：好啦，我希望你們要積極，而且要用科技的方式……"],["莊部長翠雲：運用大數據跟科技，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員德福：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請吳秉叡委員質詢，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},{"id":"162690","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162690","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73c450eb9b6712e7c5c914d80f272b5bb4907d28bbaa3ae023b604f0d634e96aee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:28:30 - 09:39:18","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團、（三）委員張智倫等17人、（四）委員葉元之等21人及（五）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團、（二）委員鄭天財Sra 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人事長 還有移民署署長委員好委員好好 謝謝"},{"start":26.196,"end":46.117,"text":"首先我先請教次長我們直接就開明見山的題我想請問一下一個問題就是有關這次租屋補貼的問題我想這個是大概全國人民很重視的一個議題所以我就放到今天也穿插進來請教一下"},{"start":47.538,"end":73.925,"text":"這個去年那個總統他在國慶演講的時候他競選的時候他就已經有講過協助百萬戶租屋加戶計畫還有國慶演講的時候他有提到說實現居住正義擴大對租屋族的照顧那去年也有提到說租金補貼要提升到75萬戶那行政院會通過300億的那個中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫"},{"start":75.865,"end":87.464,"text":"中央喔 兩個字 中央那中央會全數補助那怎麼為什麼現在又變了 又變成那個內政部長又說這個要改成地方要負責籌措部分的支出請問次長"},{"start":88.43,"end":114.195,"text":"好謝謝委員我想這邊簡單跟委員報告我想租金補貼的部分當然是賴總統的政策那我們目前的話大概已經實際上的租的租補案件是61萬戶所以目標70萬不變那至於剛剛委員所垂詢的部分就是有關這個租金的一個負擔支出那其實在這個在最早的版本裡面其實地方本來就是也要負擔的不是啊最早版本我不知道我只知道後來總統他講的叫做中央全數給予補助啊"},{"start":114.975,"end":134.341,"text":"我只知道你們提出來的叫做中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫你看一下PPT上面的嘛 這個是統籌由中央負責來做撥款所以中央統籌的意思就是中央開支票地方"},{"start":136.104,"end":165.043,"text":"地方付錢 中央請客地方買單這個在當時 我記得在1123年的時候其實就已經有這個的規範了就是說其實地方還是要負擔一定的不是啊 那這樣子等於又在騙人又在大內宣了嘛大內宣說我中央負責全額嘛然後實際要做的時候又說叫地方付那我又請教一下那為什麼中央不能付還是中央一開始 中央的心態就是我只是開這個票 支票開出來就地方要一起付請問一下次長是哪一個"},{"start":167.302,"end":183.744,"text":"市長您是長賜嘛長賜一定很了解啊正賜我就不想多問了那請問一下長賜那到底這個是怎麼回事講一講又變地方要付錢謝謝委員的指教我想這個其實預算的部分其實我們每年在編包括那個"},{"start":185.236,"end":207.736,"text":"公務預算或相關的時候或者是我們訂定前瞻預算其實這一些的數額我們都會放在報給行政院的內容那這次的不是啊 你這問A答B啊你講這個東西就是編列預算的正常做法嘛我現在請教的問題是中央以及我剛秀給你看的PPT講得很清楚是中央付錢那現在要做的時候變成"},{"start":208.971,"end":226.831,"text":"票是中央開的 請客邀約的是中央 付錢的是地方我現在立體是這個 我不能問A答B啦好不好 您是常識不正識 不要學正識啦好不好 那請問一下為什麼變成是地方要付錢 甚至台北好像要到40%嘛"},{"start":228.853,"end":253.851,"text":"這個也應該跟今年的預算其實也有被刪減也有關啦又來了我跟你講你們又開始我跟你講內政部現在是造謠部啦內政部長我都已經告發了造謠他去搞他的台灣國嘛他就最愛搞台灣國最愛搞台灣國的主人他就去時間都花在搞這些還有在那邊騙人啦什麼租金補貼被刪光那這我已經依法告發了啦但我覺得這個都很糟糕"},{"start":254.871,"end":271.077,"text":"什麼時候中央的部會變成是造謠的大本營啦我跟你講啦那我在這邊再說一次說到都爛掉了今年的總預算史上最高啦比去年還多729億啦然後非法定義物支出是1.3兆那所謂的被刪的講說什麼636億那個只佔2%啦"},{"start":274.198,"end":291.92,"text":"然後在那邊跟全國說調整不了那不是比陳水扁跟張信雄時代更不如嗎張信雄時代他們的預算數更低啊而且被刪的更高好像五十幾億還是多少人家從政府運作的順順利利的也平平安安的今天到我們這裡來"},{"start":293.762,"end":306.056,"text":"廁所衛生直接買不起 也沒有水然後再來啦 我跟你講 我覺得很恐怖的就是這個政府我在這邊跟各位報告 跟全國人民報告這很恐怖的是這個政府一般性補助款對的是"},{"start":308.262,"end":325.32,"text":"縣市裡面的一些教育的支出那個弱勢團體的支出你也敢砍租金補貼租屋族很辛苦你也敢砍你也叫地方付地方現在付不出來然後什麼都說是預算被刪為了罷免可以這麼做我這也服了你們了齁"},{"start":326.501,"end":345.566,"text":"我覺得你又在這邊講預算支出我才跟你提這個不然我完全不想再提這個那個才化法的跟這個總預算的問題因為都講到爛掉了 再講也沒有用所以你一下砍地方補助款 一下砍租屋補貼每一刀都是砍向弱勢團體啦我跟你講啦 您是事務官出身嘛我也是事務官出身的"},{"start":346.266,"end":368.088,"text":"我們都是為這個國家為這個人民在思考結果我今天看到的是政府是這麼做您是事務官出身但是您是次長你在這邊可能也不方便講一些話但是大家心裡應該都有感啦怎麼會政府會運作到今天這樣每一刀都是砍向弱勢團體而且去年還超收五千多億我真的覺得"},{"start":369.646,"end":398.14,"text":"這樣沒有辦法做事情那我請教一下移民署署長我們昨天辦公室有跟移民第二代他們的團體在座談那他們一直有提到一個點就是說他們覺得在跨部門的事項上面你們的聯繫是很不足的他們一直跟我們有這些抱怨那他們也擔心說日後成立這個新住民發展署會有一樣的問題請問署長在橫向聯繫上面是不是有出問題"},{"start":399.749,"end":422.227,"text":"報告委員 事實上我們這個在新住民相關事務的部分我們行政院有成立一個這個協調匯報那有關新住民的相關的跨部會的一些業務都是由這個行政院來召開新住民事務協調匯報就相關資源的整合這個部分由新住民事務協調匯報來協助做處理"},{"start":424.761,"end":442.057,"text":"所以你認為不會有問題目前為止是不會有太大的問題那我跟你講喔政府機關永遠說沒問題但是人民這些新住民二代他們一直覺得有問題所以我在這邊要跟署長說明這個狀況他們也擔心新住民發展署成立之後也會一樣"},{"start":442.958,"end":446.24,"text":"的問題會發生 所以我在這邊跟您說明一下"},{"start":473.218,"end":498.734,"text":"在正常的狀況之下應該是我們新住民及其子女他應該有足夠的發聲的聲量以上不是啊我跟你講你現在講的是官方的說法但是我現在回應給你的是人民的感受這些團體他們來是二代新住民的二代他們這個團體來跟我們辦公室開會我們都有會議記錄我們的結論他們就是做這樣子的反應所以我要反應跟處長說也就是說我不可能一直說我做的多好啊"},{"start":499.474,"end":525.158,"text":"我一直這樣講對我做得多棒不可能會有問題但是使用者覺得有問題嘛消費者的回饋就是覺得有問題嘛那我就沒辦法說我自己很好公務機關如果你覺得自己做得非常好可是人民的感受不是如此好有關落差的部分我們會來加強溝通那請教一下任市長喔請問喔那個接下來我們有一些那個新住民的這個那個發展署"},{"start":526.505,"end":542.875,"text":"請問一下他們如果需要有一些人力的增列,這個人事總署這邊會同意增編嗎?這本來成立機關以後,該增的延遏,我想我們第一個階段會從移民署,他有一個移民事務署,那些人扛開,帶過來,出了沒辦法,我們會去倒傘"},{"start":545.396,"end":563.937,"text":"所以你們沒有問題嗎那我為什麼問這個問題就是因為那個劉四方部長他一直說會與行政院人事總署跟主委總署研擬這個組織如何調整那至少我現在就聽到了就是人總這邊沒有問題那將來我就不能接受說內政部如果再跟我說人總這邊在"},{"start":565.399,"end":591.859,"text":"在卡住或什麼 所以謝謝那個任市長告訴我這個沒問題最後20秒我說因為剛剛黃國昌委員有提到這個籌備處的問題那個市長因為我們看到就是劉思芳部長在4月的時候他口頭有說籌備小組已經開16次了那我想說既然開了16次那你們應該有完整的這個小組的名單啦對不對應該有嘛應該不至於說照人剛剛說你也不知道"},{"start":592.6,"end":610.599,"text":"小組有多少人所以要請市長再您是小組的召集人嗎我是召集人我主持過7次那移民署本身自己也召開過12次那其實小組成員都是我們跟移民署那甚至包括我們內政部的人事處相關單位都有派員"},{"start":613.221,"end":640.219,"text":"我們還是需要知道一些進度啦所以如果說你們那裡都沒有一個完整的資料給我們但我們也會疑惑所以請你們進度一定要出來好不好沒問題那就人事長這邊再麻煩您您剛也說說這個沒有問題嘛我想說因為有時候我會遇到一些主管會用人事處這邊人事總處在卡這個人力啦然後來回應好那就謝謝 謝謝人事長"},{"start":642.484,"end":643.025,"text":"謝謝次長 謝謝署長好 謝謝吳宗憲 趙偉 請吳宗憲 趙偉繼續主持會議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時28分）謝謝。我們麻煩內政部次長、人事長，還有移民署署長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好！"],["吳委員宗憲：首先，我先請教次長，次長，我們直接就開山見山的提，我想請問一個問題，就是有關租屋補貼的問題，我想這個大概是全國人民很重視的一個議題，所以我就放到今天也穿插進來請教一下。","總統在競選的時候就已經有講過協助百萬戶租屋家戶計畫；還有國慶演講的時候也有提到要實現居住正義，擴大對租屋族的照顧；去年也有提到租金補貼要提升到75萬戶，行政院會通過300億的中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫，「中央」兩個字，「中央」會全數補助。為什麼現在又變了？內政部長又說這個要改成地方要負責籌措部分的支出？請問次長。"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員，簡單跟委員報告，租金補貼當然是賴總統的政策，目前實際上的租補案件大概是61萬戶，所以目標70萬戶不變。至於剛剛委員所垂詢的部分，就是有關租金的負擔支出，這個在最早的版本裡面其實地方本來就是也要負擔的。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，最早的版本我不知道，我只知道後來總統講的叫做中央全數給予補助，我只知道你們提出來的叫做中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫，你看一下PPT上面的好不好？"],["吳次長堂安：這個是統籌由中央負責撥款，其實還是……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以中央統籌的意思就是中央開支票、地方付錢？中央請客、地方買單？"],["吳次長堂安：沒有，我記得當時在112、113年的時候就已經有這個規範，就是說其實地方還是要負擔一定的部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，那這樣子等於又在騙人，又在大內宣了，大內宣說中央負責全額，然後實際要做的時候又說叫地方付。那我要請教一下，為什麼中央不能付？還是一開始中央的心態就是我只是開這個支票出來，地方要一起付？請問一下次長是哪一個？次長，您是常次，常次一定很了解，政次我就不想多問了，那請問一下常次，到底這個是怎麼回事？講一講又變地方要付錢。"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員的指教，有關預算的部分，其實我們每年在編公務預算或相關預算的時候，或者是我們訂定前瞻預算，這一些數額我們都會放在報給行政院的內容，這次的部分……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啊！你是問A答B，你講這個東西就是編列預算的正常作法嘛！我現在請教的問題是，中央以及我剛剛秀給你看的PPT講得很清楚，是中央付錢，現在要做的時候變成票是中央開的、請客邀約的是中央，付錢的是地方，我現在的議題是這個，你不能問A答B啦！您是常次，不是政次，不要學政次啦！請問一下為什麼變成是地方要付錢？甚至臺北好像要到40%嘛？這還蠻驚人的！"],["吳次長堂安：委員，這個應該跟今年的預算有被刪減也有關啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：又來了，你們又開始，我跟你講，內政部現在是造謠部啦！內政部長我都已經告發了，造謠，他去搞他的臺灣國嘛！他就最愛搞臺灣國，最愛搞什麼臺灣國的主人，他就把時間都花在搞這些，還有在那邊騙人啦！什麼租金補貼被刪光！這我已經依法告發了。但我覺得這個都很糟糕，什麼時候中央的部會變成是造謠的大本營啦？我在這邊再說一次，說到都爛掉了，今年的總預算是史上最高，比去年還多729億，非法定義務支出是1.3兆，所謂被刪的636億，那個只占2%啦！然後在那邊跟全國說調整不了，那不是比陳水扁跟張俊雄時代更不如嗎？張俊雄時代的預算數更低，而且被刪的更高，好像六百五十幾億還是多少，人家政府運作的順順利利的，也平平安安的，結果今天到我們，廁所衛生紙也買不起，也沒有水。","再來，我覺得很恐怖的就是這個政府，我在這邊跟各位報告、跟全國人民報告，很恐怖的是這個政府，一般性補助款對的是縣市裡面的一些教育的支出、弱勢團體的支出，你也敢砍；租金補貼，租屋族很辛苦，你也敢砍，你也叫地方付，地方現在付不出來，然後什麼都說是預算被刪，為了罷免可以這麼做，我也服了你們了。你要在這邊講預算被刪，我才跟你提這個，不然我完全不想再提財劃法跟總預算的問題，因為都講到爛掉了，再講也沒有用。你一下砍地方補助款，一下砍租屋補貼，每一刀都是砍向弱勢團體，我跟你講，您是事務官出身，我也是事務官出身的，我們都是為這個國家、為人民在思考，結果我今天看到政府是這麼做，您是事務官出身，但是您是次長，你在這邊可能也不方便講一些話，但是大家心裡應該都有感。政府怎麼會運作到今天這樣？每一刀都是砍向弱勢團體，而且去年還超收五千多億，我真的覺得這樣沒有辦法做事情。","我請教一下移民署，署長，我們辦公室昨天有跟移民第二代的團體座談，他們一直有提到一個點，就是他們覺得在跨部門的事項上面你們的聯繫是很不足的，他們一直有這些抱怨，他們也擔心日後成立新住民發展署會有一樣的問題，請問署長，在橫向聯繫上面是不是有出問題？"],["林署長宏恩：報告委員，在新住民相關事務的部分，行政院有成立一個協調會報，與新住民相關跨部會的一些業務，都是由行政院來召開新住民事務協調會報，就相關資源的整合部分由新住民事務協調會報來協助處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你認為不會有問題？"],["林署長宏恩：目前為止是不會有太大的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，我跟你講，政府機關永遠說沒問題，但是人民，這些新住民二代，他們一直覺得有問題，所以我要跟署長說明有這個狀況，他們也擔心新住民發展署成立之後也會發生一樣的問題，所以我在這跟您說明一下。"],["林署長宏恩：報告委員，是不是容我補充說明一下？因為我們新住民事務協調會報裡面有29位委員，29位委員中有12位是新住民及其子女作為代表，其他的部分就是由學者專家跟所謂的機關代表，其實新住民及其子女代表的比例在裡面是比較高的，所以照理講，在正常的狀況之下，新住民及其子女應該有足夠的發聲聲量。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你現在講的是官方的說法，但是我現在回應給你的是人民的感受。這些團體他們是新住民的二代，這個團體來跟我們辦公室開會，我們都有會議紀錄，我們的結論，他們就是做這樣子的反映，所以我要反映給署長，也就是說，我不可能一直說我做得多好、我做得多棒，不可能會有問題，但是使用者覺得有問題，消費者的回饋就是覺得有問題，那我就沒辦法說我自己很好。你也是，公務機關如果覺得自己做得非常好，可是人民的感受不是如此。"],["林署長宏恩：有關落差的部分，我們會來加強溝通。"],["吳委員宗憲：請教一下人事長，接下來新住民發展署如果需要有一些人力的增列，人事行政總處會同意增編嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：本來成立機關以後該增的員額，我們第一個階段會從移民署，它有一個移民事務組，那些人把工作帶過來，剩下不夠的，我們會去幫忙。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們沒有問題嘛！我為什麼問這個問題？就是因為劉世芳部長一直說會與行政院人事行政總處跟主計總處研擬這個組織如何調整，至少我現在聽到人總這邊沒有問題，那將來我就不能接受內政部再跟我說人總這邊卡住或什麼，謝謝人事長告訴我這個沒問題。","最後20秒，因為剛剛黃國昌委員有提到籌備處的問題，次長，我們看到劉世芳部長在4月的時候口頭有說籌備小組已經開16次了，既然開了16次，那你們應該有完整的小組名單，對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：有。"],["吳委員宗憲：應該有嘛！應該不至於造成剛剛你說你也不知道這個小組有多少人，所以要請問次長，您是那個小組的召集人嘛？"],["吳次長堂安：委員，我是召集人，我主持過7次，移民署本身也召開過12次，其實小組成員都是我們跟移民署，甚至包括我們內政部人事處等相關單位都有派員。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我們還是需要知道一些進度，如果你們都沒有一個完整的資料給我們，當然我們也會疑惑，所以請你們進度一定要出來，好不好？"],["吳次長堂安：沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：那就再麻煩人事長，您剛剛也說這個沒有問題，因為有時候我會遇到一些主管又用人事行政總處在卡這個人力來回應，那就謝謝人事長、謝謝次長、謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲召委，請吳宗憲召委繼續主持會議。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：謝謝，下一位請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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Twitter推文上面只有寫兩個字叫做那個投降就是無條件投降他只寫兩個字所以看起來美國"},{"start":23.874,"end":41.068,"text":"我們看他從不管是英國或義大利或其他單位他們的加油機、轟炸機大概都往中東集中所以除了以色列跟伊朗以外大概美國在這件事情上不會置身事外特別牽涉到核子武器這個是大概媒體都有報導的客觀局勢"},{"start":41.989,"end":59.85,"text":"那我現在詢問的是我們外交部第一個我們外交部掌握國際局勢當然必要這待會請教你但是國人在外面的安全很重要因為我們旅遊警示是你們在公布的目前伊朗是紅色嘛是屬於第四級"},{"start":60.811,"end":83.567,"text":"所以第四級是不建議前往,在那邊的還請他離開對不對對那我們對伊朗,我看伊拉克、伊朗、以色列、黎巴嫩這個區域,靠近黎巴嫩這個區域,我們都列為紅色第四級所以不建議前往,還要求他儘速離開那我們在這個區域有沒有撤僑的計畫"},{"start":85.823,"end":104.441,"text":"在以色列我們目前都還沒有到撤僑沒有 那如果國人要離開外交部住處可以提供協助嗎協助包括好幾波透過我們路路啦交通載具然後離境的時候比如到約旦也有人去接所以你現在講的是已經有執行的"},{"start":104.741,"end":134.04,"text":"有三坡 二十位從以色列離開那就有在執行嘛只是說你沒有主動啦現在就是說如果要離開的外交部目前透過陸路到約旦那已經走了三坡 大約二十名是然後需要徹底的人是向我們住處聯繫嗎我們好像有個聯繫的網絡嘛對 我們就是里外國人登錄表那個都是隨時在滾動式修正有沒有在我們掌握的國人以外的人目前在那裡的"},{"start":136.258,"end":162.086,"text":"因為他們之間互相也都聯繫跟我們代表處常連都有聯繫因為其實以色列或是加薩索蘭或是這邊的戰事已經一段時間了一段時間了但伊朗這邊情況是比較形態因為人也比較少就九名那目前三名已經離境所以我先跟你確認一下我們現在以色列全境是列為第四級紅色還是有一部分維持在橙色北境跟加薩索蘭是第四級"},{"start":163.966,"end":188.218,"text":"但其他的部分就是第三級就靠近黎巴嫩跟靠近加薩這一邊列為紅色第四級對其餘的維持在第三級第三級就是避免前往沒有勸離的一個呼籲所以現在如果我是位處在橙色的部分我希望撤離外交部也協助嗎也協助也要協助而且密切聯繫中"},{"start":189.238,"end":209.789,"text":"那你現在掌握我們在那邊的目前真的還在那裡的台灣人有多少包含學生啊 經商啊 駕駛的270位所以我這邊 我看到就有的數據是280位因為已經有離境一些那剛剛同仁給我嘛 因為滾動室在修正目前是274位 還在目前274 對那離開有20位嘛 你剛才講20個嘛所以原來應該294在那個地方對啊 就數學嘛"},{"start":218.974,"end":231.771,"text":"來274你剛才一開始我問你我們到底有多少台灣人在那裏委員是這樣子因為就像剛剛我們剛剛講的他是滾動式的他在怎麼滾數學不會變嗎不是 因為有些國人他是自己看到我們外館發佈訊息他主動來聯繫的"},{"start":233.894,"end":251.177,"text":"沒有 有主動聯繫 因為有些是短期上有國人 我們的確可能我現在說 我們外交部要展現的是 我國人在以色列我有掌握住他們 是294位或290位目前是19位 18位或20位 這不能大約啦每一條 每一條台灣人都是珍貴的 所以我的意思說"},{"start":251.798,"end":269.879,"text":"每一條生命都是非常寶貴的所以你剛才說有安排20位經過陸路到第三軌就是約旦而且有人接這是很好非常好安全出去了嘛所以那邊有多少人加上現在那裡還有多少人那就equal to那就等於我原來有多少人嘛沒有例外嘛例外就是我不知道的嘛"},{"start":270.399,"end":287.257,"text":"沒錯 有些就是主動通報所以人數上會有一些變動的原因在這個地方所以我們現在台灣人 現在是274位現在現存274 是啊已經離開幾位 20位所以原來大概就是294 如果這樣加的話就294這沒有錯啦齁那伊朗那一邊呢 在伊朗的台灣人"},{"start":288.052,"end":308.302,"text":"伊朗那邊原先我們掌握的是九位那現在有三位是剛剛部長提到他們已經從陸路到土耳其去了那最近呢還會有三位可能會往北邊東北邊往土耳其那他們的離開是我們有提供協助還是我們只是掌握訊息我們現在的話就是我們那個冒險德黑蘭一個辦公室他們有跟他們冒險主任跟他們都有當事人都有去"},{"start":308.482,"end":335.961,"text":"那這有點像當時烏克蘭戰爭爆發的時候因為一開始烏克蘭當時也不讓我們有住宿在嘛所以是經由茂協一個專員在那地方提供相關的協助聯繫所以現在聽起來就是有三位在伊朗的台籍人士已經走陸路往土耳其方向走你說未來接下來還有三位要離開那我們在那邊提供行政協助的是茂協的駐地人員那我們現在茂協有幾個人在那裡"},{"start":337.08,"end":352.286,"text":"茂賢目前有一位主任另外的話是當地僱員那位主任本身有沒有要撤離?他家人有沒有在那?主任他目前在德黑蘭不過他會依據情況會做一些相關的調整那個以色列撒空飄單是要在德黑蘭能趕快離開欸"},{"start":354.276,"end":374.835,"text":"我們那位主任安全也很重要甚至於他應該聯繫還剩餘的六位應該要往郊區避就是說因為這兩天看起來以色列空軍會先撒單子叫你離開這個區域那接下來真的就是會來炸嘛所以你們現在有沒有辦法跟這一位我們冒險的主任聯繫上"},{"start":376.383,"end":391.222,"text":"包委我們每天都有聯繫而且主任他自己對於其實他還沒有離開的一些撤離路線他都已經規劃好了包含可能往北往離海的方向或是往西往拓斜方向現在都規劃好那我們會依據實際的情況來去做任何即時的因應對我是覺得"},{"start":392.503,"end":407.929,"text":"他在當地最清楚我們在外面知道國際局勢他在當地知道當地的狀況有時候原來通的路會shut down 就關掉了所以安全第一啦我們的國人能夠撤離 禁書撤離那這件事看起來我們外交部掌握得還不錯那我覺得要請問的是接下來就是"},{"start":409.909,"end":436.558,"text":"這一波當然在經濟上我們就會關心到油價啦黃金啦國際相關的經濟的議題這會影響地緣政治也會影響像美國有一個航母群已經開往那個位置所以它也會連動到印太地區的安全部署也會影響到這個烏克蘭那邊的戰爭像烏克蘭最近沒有拿到防空飛彈因為那些彈就移到了以色列那邊所以這個是其他的邊界影響我現在要提的是"},{"start":437.518,"end":464.46,"text":"就從去年發生的哈馬斯屠殺以色列人這個事件開始去年10月那在加薩地道的作戰以及伊朗它的核設施以及用飛彈對以色列發動了幾波的攻擊以及在以色列周邊伊朗的附庸不管是葉門的或者是黎巴嫩的這些相關的攻擊"},{"start":466.459,"end":474.837,"text":"據相關資訊顯示以色列人發現這裡面不管是在隧道裡面的武器大概九成以上都來自於中國"},{"start":477.558,"end":501.97,"text":"這個伊朗的核設施的能量來自中國上一次一艘一架來自中國的運輸機停在那個伊朗快被以色列炸掉那個飛機來自中國昨天三架從中國飛往伊朗的7370就是波音的飛機後來訊號關掉他們也相信這個是去運補伊朗那邊"},{"start":503.03,"end":518.606,"text":"所以以色列過去這長期以來是幫助中國武器現代化很重要的國家其實以色列跟中國很好那台灣跟以色列從我們大概第一代雄風飛彈以後直接的接觸就減少了"},{"start":519.207,"end":544.306,"text":"我要問的問題是 部長 這個讓你親自回答從去年到現在 我們外交部跟以色列之間我們台語的關係 是不是有因為這些局勢的改變台語關係有升溫 我講的升溫是保護和呈現在交流的頻率交流的品質 交流的層級以及不管在安全議題 軍工業合作議題或者經貿議題上 你的評估怎麼樣"},{"start":549.881,"end":572.699,"text":"確實如您講以前以色列跟中國的關係是包括在軍事還有武器上是有密切的關係但是自從這個中東的戰事發生之後我想他們已經很清楚中國在背後支持他們的敵對的治理"},{"start":574.901,"end":585.989,"text":"那跟台灣的部分,我想不只是說理念相近,現在地緣政治上也是厲害,關係是很密切所以在交流的程式跟範圍都有所提升"},{"start":593.993,"end":621.887,"text":"因為光我們在立法院連續接到的以色列訪問團頻率跟裡面的成員裡面成員擔任過部長級的擔任過摩薩德副手等級的都公開來所以我是覺得這個質跟量也許是一個彼此關係提升的契機那我最後30秒問一個簡單的問題這個因為不完全你們負責哥斯大黎加的情報安全局有派五個情報官來台灣授勧嗎"},{"start":623.035,"end":648.393,"text":"有還是沒有因為這不是我們外交部主管業務我就不予回答了不是透過我們海外住處去聯繫安排這個嗎我們對於一些國際交流有一定的都有掌握不過因為涉及到不是我們主管業務這個消息來源是來自於當地的媒體報導那哥斯拉伊加跟我們斷交相當時間了他2007年斷交到現在了"},{"start":651.815,"end":668.531,"text":"那哥斯大黎加近來因為資安問題跟中國產生了一些摩擦這個是背景那當地媒體報導說有五個他們情報局的人經由第三國來台灣參加情報安全培訓這個是坦白講"},{"start":670.492,"end":696.72,"text":"有的是屬於國安事務但是這個是一個朋友之間如果情報人員都去你那邊受訓的話這代表關係的提升所以這也是外交啦你不肯回答我不勉強啦就是說有關這個哥斯大利加情報安全局他們自己報導說有五個官員來台灣這件事情後續會不會引起中國的抗議中國跟哥斯大利加的變化以及台灣跟哥斯大利加的變化"},{"start":697.62,"end":715.325,"text":"我是建議外交部其實有一塊是相當於大的一塊其實是台美跟中南美洲的關係這個要掌握住啦所以川普政府更重視西半球特別是拉美那這個部分當然我們在外交空間上是有增加啦"},{"start":715.805,"end":727.081,"text":"那在交流方面,我們不以邦交國為對象,不論情報的交流,各種經貿交流,乃至於有一些政務的交流,都是有在推動當中"},{"start":731.857,"end":747.542,"text":"我們當然非邦交國主要理念相近我們現在總和外交其實都是積極在跟他們尋找交集建立彼此的互信合作機制這個有很多方面的層次那這一題我們會持續追蹤那我們向外交部繼續加油好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":106,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時19分）謝謝主席。麻煩部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。今天大家都關切中東的局勢，以色列、伊朗的戰事升溫，我想這個無庸置疑啦！川普最新的X也就是Twitter推文上面只有寫兩個字叫做「投降」，就是無條件投降，他只寫兩個字。所以看起來美國，不管是英國或義大利或其他單位，他們的加油機、轟炸機大概都往中東集中，所以除了以色列跟伊朗以外，大概美國在這件事情上不會置身事外，特別牽涉到核子武器，這個是大概媒體都有報導的客觀局勢。","我現在要詢問的是，第一個，我們外交部掌握國際局勢當然必要，這待會我請教你，但是國人在外面的安全很重要，因為我們的旅遊警示是你們在公布的。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：目前伊朗是紅色，屬於第四級，所以第四級是不僅不建議前往，在那邊的還請他離開，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我看伊拉克、伊朗、以色列，還有靠近黎巴嫩這個區域，我們都列為紅色第四級，所以不建議前往，還要求他儘速離開，那我們在這個區域有沒有撤僑的計畫？"],["林部長佳龍：在以色列，我們目前都還沒有到撤僑。"],["王委員定宇：如果國人要離開，外交部駐處可以提供協助嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：會協助，包括好幾波透過陸路交通載具，離境的時候，比如到約旦也有人去接，讓他……"],["王委員定宇：你現在講的是已經有執行的？"],["林部長佳龍：有三波，20位從以色列離開。"],["王委員定宇：那就有在執行，只是你沒有主動，現在就是如果要離開的，外交部目前透過陸路到約旦已經走了三波，大約20名？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：需要撤離的人是向我們的駐處聯繫嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我們好像有個聯繫的網絡？"],["林部長佳龍：對，就是旅外國人登錄表，那個都是隨時在滾動式修正。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有在我們掌握的國人以外的人目前在那裡的？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他們之間互相也都聯繫，跟我們代表處常年都有聯繫，其實以色列或是加薩走廊，或是這邊的戰事已經一段時間了，當然伊朗這邊情況是比較新，但因為人也比較少，有9名，目前3名已經離境。"],["王委員定宇：我先跟你確認一下，現在以色列全境是列為第四級紅色，還是有一部分的維持在橙色？"],["林部長佳龍：北境跟加薩走廊是第四級。"],["王委員定宇：你們有分嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：其他的部分就是第三級。"],["王委員定宇：就是靠近黎巴嫩跟靠近加薩這邊列為紅色第四級？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：其餘的維持在第三級，第三級就是避免前往，沒有勸離的呼籲？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以現在如果我是位處在橙色的部分，我希望撤離，外交部也協助嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：也協助。"],["王委員定宇：也一樣協助嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：而且在密切聯繫中。"],["王委員定宇：你現在掌握目前真的還在那裡的臺灣人有多少？包含學生、經商、嫁娶的。"],["林部長佳龍：270位。"],["王委員定宇：我這邊看到舊的數據是280位。"],["林部長佳龍：因為已經有離境一些，剛剛同仁給我，因為都是滾動式在修正，目前是274位還在。"],["王委員定宇：目前274？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：你剛剛講離開的有20位，所以原來應該是有294位在那個地方？"],["林部長佳龍：嗯……"],["王委員定宇：這是數學嘛！對啊，274。一開始我問你……"],["林部長佳龍：我請亞非司來報告一下最新的狀況。"],["王委員定宇：到底有多少臺灣人在那裡？"],["陳副司長詠博：委員，是這樣子，誠如剛剛我們部長講的，它是滾動式的……"],["王委員定宇：再怎麼滾，數學也不會變嘛！"],["陳副司長詠博：可是因為有些國人是自己看到我們外館發布的訊息，主動來聯繫……"],["王委員定宇：滾出去又滾回來？"],["陳副司長詠博：沒有，是主動來聯繫，因為有些是短期商旅的國人，我們的確可能……"],["王委員定宇：我現在是說，外交部要展現的是：國人在以色列，我有掌握住他們。"],["陳副司長詠博：是。"],["王委員定宇：原本是294位或290位，目前是19位、18位或20位離開，這不能大約啦！每條臺灣人的生命都是珍貴的！我的意思是，每一條生命都是非常寶貴的，所以你剛才說有安排20位經過陸路到第三國，也就是約旦，而且有人接，這很好、非常好！安全出去了嘛！所以那邊有多少人，加上現在那裡還有多少人，那就egual to也就是等於原來有多少人，沒有例外嘛！例外就是我不知道的嘛！"],["陳副司長詠博：沒錯，有些是主動通報，所以人數上會有一些變動的原因在這個地方。"],["王委員定宇：所以現在臺灣人……"],["陳副司長詠博：現在是274位。"],["王委員定宇：現存274？"],["陳副司長詠博：是。"],["王委員定宇：已經離開幾位？"],["陳副司長詠博：20位。"],["王委員定宇：所以原來大概就是……"],["陳副司長詠博：如果這樣加的話就是294。"],["王委員定宇：294，這沒有錯啦！那伊朗那邊呢？在伊朗的臺灣人有多少？"],["陳副司長詠博：伊朗那邊原先我們掌握的是9位，現在有3位剛剛部長有提到他們已經從陸路到土耳其去了，最近還有3位可能會往東北邊……"],["王委員定宇：對於他們的離開，我們有提供協助或只是掌握訊息而已？"],["陳副司長詠博：我們的貿協在德黑蘭有一個辦公室，貿協主任和當事人都有取得聯繫。"],["王委員定宇：那這有點像當初烏克蘭戰爭爆發的時候，因為當時烏克蘭也不讓我們設立駐處，所以是經由貿協的一個專員在那個地方提供相關的協助和聯繫，所以現在聽起來就是有3位在伊朗的臺籍人士已經從陸路往土耳其的方向走，接下來還有3位要離開，而我們在那邊提供行政協助的是貿協的駐地人員，請問現在貿協有幾個人在那裡？"],["陳副司長詠博：貿協目前有一位主任，另外是當地雇員。"],["王委員定宇：那位主任本身有沒有要撤離？他的家人有沒有在那裡？"],["陳副司長詠博：主任目前在德黑蘭，不過他會依據情況做一些相關的調整。"],["王委員定宇：以色列撒的空飄單是要在德黑蘭的人趕快離開耶！我們那位主任的安全也很重要，甚至他應該聯繫還剩餘的6位往郊區去避。因為這兩天看起來，以色列的空軍會先撒單子叫你離開這個區域，接下來真的就是會來炸了，所以你們現在有沒有辦法跟這一位貿協的主任聯繫上？"],["陳副司長詠博：報告委員，我們每天都有聯繫……"],["王委員定宇：可以聯繫上嘛？"],["陳副司長詠博：而且主任他自己對於其他還沒有離開的人的撤離路線都已經規劃好了，包含可能往北、往裏海的方向或者是往西、往土耳其的方向，現在他都規劃好了，我們會依據實際的情況去做即時的因應。"],["王委員定宇：對！我是覺得他在當地最清楚，我們在外面知道國際局勢，他在當地知道當地的狀況，有時候原來通的路會shut down，就是關掉了，所以安全第一，我們國人能夠撤離就儘速撤離，這件事看來我們外交部掌握得還不錯。","我接下來要請問的是，這一波當然在經濟上我們就會關心到油價、黃金等國際相關的經濟議題，這個會有影響，地緣政治也會有影響，像美國有一個航母群已經開往那個位置，所以這也會連動到印太地區的安全部署，也會影響到烏克蘭那邊的戰爭，像烏克蘭最近沒有拿到防空飛彈，因為那些彈就移到以色列那邊，所以這是其他的邊際影響。我現在要提的是，就從去年10月發生的哈瑪斯屠殺以色列人這個事件開始，在加薩地道的作戰、伊朗的核設施、用飛彈對以色列發動的幾波攻擊，以及在以色列周邊伊朗的附庸，不管是葉門的或者是黎巴嫩的，這些相關的攻擊，根據相關資訊顯示，以色列發現包括在隧道裡面的武器，大概九成以上都來自中國，伊朗核設施的能量也來自中國，上次一架來自中國的運輸機停在伊朗，後來被以色列炸掉，那架飛機來自中國！昨天3架從中國飛往伊朗的737還747，就是波音的飛機，後來把訊號關掉，他們也相信這是去運補伊朗那邊。所以，以色列過去長期以來是幫助中國武器現代化很重要的國家，其實以色列跟中國很好，臺灣跟以色列大概從第一代雄風飛彈以後，直接的接觸就減少了。","我要問的問題是，部長，這需要你親自回答，從去年到現在，我們外交部跟以色列之間，臺以的關係似乎有因為這些局勢的改變而升溫，我講的「升溫」是包含呈現在交流的頻率、交流的品質、交流的層級，以及不管是在安全議題、軍工業合作議題或者是經貿議題上，你的評估是怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：確實如您講的，以前以色列跟中國包括在軍事和武器方面都有密切的關係，但是自從中東戰事發生之後，他們已經很清楚中國在背後支持他們敵對的……"],["王委員定宇：就是那些恐怖主義嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對。跟臺灣的部分，不只是理念相近，在地緣政治上的利害關係也很密切。"],["王委員定宇：我剛剛講的是，臺以之間在過去……"],["林部長佳龍：在交流的層次和範圍都有所提升。"],["王委員定宇：光是我們在立法院連續接待以色列訪問團的頻率，以及訪問團成員擔任過部長級、擔任過摩薩德副手等級的都公開前來，所以我是覺得這個質和量也許是彼此關係提升的契機。","最後我再問一個簡單的問題，這不完全是由你們負責。哥斯大黎加情報安全局有派5個情報官來臺灣受訓嘛？有還是沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：這不是我們外交部主管的業務，我就不予回答了。"],["王委員定宇：這不是透過我們的海外駐處去聯繫、安排的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們對於國際交流都有掌握，不過因為涉及非我們主管的業務……"],["王委員定宇：這個消息的來源是當地的媒體報導。哥斯大黎加從2007年跟我們斷交到現在，已經有相當的時間了，他們近來因為資安問題跟中國產生一些摩擦，這個是背景，當地媒體報導說有5個他們情報局的人經由第三國來臺灣參加情報安全培訓，坦白講，這件事情有的是屬於國安事務，但這是一個朋友之間，如果情報人員都去你那邊受訓的話，這代表關係的提升，所以這也是外交，你不便回答我，我也不勉強，就是有關哥斯大黎加自己的媒體報導說有5個情報安全局的官員來臺灣，這件事情後續會引起中國的抗議，有關中國跟哥斯大黎加的關係變化，以及臺灣跟哥斯大黎加關係的變化，我是建議外交部，其實有相當大的一塊其實是臺、美跟中南美洲國家的關係，這個要掌握住！"],["林部長佳龍：是，川普政府更重視西半球，特別是拉美，這個部分當然我們在外交空間上是有增加啦！在交流方面，我們不以邦交國為對象，不管是情報的交流、各種經貿交流，乃至於有一些政務的交流，都有在推動當中。"],["王委員定宇：部長這樣回答就等於是有了，你知道嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：非邦交國只要理念相近，我們現在總合外交其實都是積極在跟他們尋找交集。"],["王委員定宇：我覺得多接觸是好的，建立彼此的互信、合作機制，這有很多方面的層次，這一題我們會持續追蹤，希望外交部繼續加油！謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員的質詢。","接下來由羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a737e7c54935269e4e5c914d80f272b5bb4907d28bbaa3ae0236e51440544dc04855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:18:43 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麻煩有請內政部次長以及我們人事行政總署的人事長兩位好2023年12月18號當時的副總統賴清德與總統候選人的身份在臉書上面發表了對新住民的承諾"},{"start":32.594,"end":44.325,"text":"包括了要強化新住民專責的單位要提升他的位階賴總統對新住民的承諾我相信應該還算數 沒有問題吧"},{"start":47.724,"end":62.442,"text":"請對著麥克風講話因為這樣子你的點頭沒有辦法進入立法院公報還算數吧這個行政院 我們就依照總統公布的就依照總統公布的這是賴總統的承諾嘛現在我問賴總統的承諾還算不算數算數嗎"},{"start":67.829,"end":94.578,"text":"應該符合規定我說賴總統的承諾算不算數你說應該符合規定總統已經發布施行了好來看一下賴總統的承諾啊在野黨幫他實現了我為什麼說在野黨幫他實現了去年7月16號新住民基本法第4條內政部應設置新住民事務專責中央三級行政機關"},{"start":96.46,"end":122.338,"text":"當初在立法院表決的時候在野黨、台灣民眾黨、中國國民黨的委員支持57票民主進步黨反對49票57比49的表決結果在新住民基本法裡面對於中央三級行政機關我們提供了一個重要基本法未接的法源基礎"},{"start":123.973,"end":150.196,"text":"今天我看到有民主進步黨的委員也針對組織法提出他們的修正草案我覺得這是一個好的方向基本法過了以後過了以後也認同這樣一個中央三級機關的立法方向所以也提出了組織法的修正草案非常的好希望今天能夠順利完成委員會的審查"},{"start":152.247,"end":176.273,"text":"但我們要追問的事情是說去年7月18號內政部說我們署的員額已經滿了所以先成立新住民權益保障籌備處目前這個新住民權益保障籌備處的進度如何謝謝委員指教我想那個成立籌備小組的部分是由我這邊先提一下我問的是籌備處籌備處成立了沒有"},{"start":179.167,"end":198.041,"text":"還沒還沒有成立從去年7月18號說要成立籌備處到現在已經六月了還沒有成立籌備處跟委員報告籌備小組跟籌備處的性質其實是一樣都是為了要未來成立發展署你回去看一下你們自己內政部的報告啦籌備處跟籌備小組一樣嗎現在籌備小組人力有幾個人"},{"start":203.57,"end":232.1,"text":"跟委員報告 我們籌備小組是由我擔任召集人是 那總共有幾個人幾乎是移民署的同仁都有參與全部你全部都把他移到籌備小組裡面去我們籌備小組只是個工作就是為了一個未來的組織是嘛 所以我就問你籌備小組有幾個人嘛有幾個人連員額都沒有不是 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我們院長都很支持如果很支持可以拖這麼久什麼時候三讀通過了新住民基本法"},{"start":385.049,"end":398.78,"text":"你知道嗎去年七月去年七月現在幾月現在是六月一年啊那這個中間我們就是成立籌備小組然後這種籌備小組緣而不足的籌備小組持續籌備要籌備到什麼時候要籌備到什麼時候不知道什麼時候要公告私情不知道"},{"start":409.793,"end":438.519,"text":"對於我們的行政院來講 不想做的事能拖就拖 能混就混持續的研議 持續的拖延 持續的籌備這個就是我們的民進黨政府在面對我們新住民權益保障的態度嗎是這樣嗎來 請回答那我想照顧新住民這個是我們內政部應該做的工作是 那就做嘛展現具體的行動出來嘛"},{"start":440.216,"end":468.877,"text":"你們現在告訴新住民朋友的是我們很認真在研議啊研議了快一年啊持續的研議啊新住民基本法什麼時候要公告知情也不知道是這樣嗎我們的籌組業務的其實業務有超過非常的繁重我知道所以呢按照你們的能力業務這麼繁重還要再籌備多久再籌備三年夠不夠再籌備三年到二零二八年"},{"start":469.972,"end":486.604,"text":"再讓你開一次競選支票 再騙一次票 時間夠不夠夠不夠 三年夠不夠 三年還不夠來 什麼時候要提出內政部組織法 內政部新住民發展署組織法"},{"start":488.311,"end":517.146,"text":"行政院版的草案有要提嗎跟委員報告因為新住民失誤繁瑣包括文化勞動衛福還有教育所以什麼時候送來也不知道我們會配合整個基本法實行後我們來推特今天我們修法有需要等你們嗎今天可不可以出委員會行政院會不會反對我們尊重委員會尊重委員會非常的好非常的好不要阻擋喔今天在有關於這些組織法的施行日期啊有鑒於"},{"start":518.706,"end":545.686,"text":"新住民基本法我們相信行政院把施行日期給行政院定沒想到行政院可以混成這個樣子到今天新住民基本法什麼時候要施行都不敢講今天台灣民眾黨黨團最後一條我們會提修正動議施行日期我會直接定下去我不會再給行政院機會了之前給你們機會給你們方便當隨便"},{"start":549.108,"end":563.909,"text":"讓新住民的朋友等了多久今天沒有這樣子的待遇了事情日期直接定下去希望到時候行政機關依法行政遵守法律可以嗎可以嗎我想尊重委員會好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":199,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請內政部次長以及人事行政總處人事長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。2023年12月18日當時的副總統賴清德以總統候選人的身分，在臉書上面發表了對於新住民的承諾，包括了要強化新住民專責的單位並提升它的位階。賴總統對新住民的承諾，我相信應該還算數，沒有問題吧！請對著麥克風講話，因為你點頭無法記入立法院公報。還算數吧？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員，我們就依照總統公布的。"],["黃委員國昌：就依照總統公布的，這是賴總統的承諾嘛！"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我問賴總統的承諾還算不算數，算數嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：應該符合規定。"],["黃委員國昌：我問賴總統的承諾算不算數，你說應該符合規定。"],["吳次長堂安：總統已經發布施行了。"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下賴總統的承諾，在野黨幫他實現了，我為什麼說在野黨幫他實現了？去年7月16日三讀通過新住民基本法第四條「內政部應設置新住民事務專責中央三級行政機關」，當初在立法院表決的時候，在野黨的台灣民眾黨及中國國民黨的委員支持的有57票；而民主進步黨反對的有49票，57比49的表決結果，在新住民基本法裡面，對於中央三級行政機關提供了一個重要基本法位階的法源基礎。今天我看到有民主進步黨的委員也針對組織法提出修正草案，我覺得這是一個好的方向，基本法過了以後，他們也認同這樣一個中央三級機關的立法方向，所以也提出了組織法的修正草案，非常的好！希望今天法案能夠順利完成委員會的審查。但我們要追問的事情是去年7月18日內政部說署已經額滿了，所以先成立新住民權益保障籌備處。目前這個新住民權益保障籌備處的進度如何？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員指教，成立籌備小組的部分是由我們……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，我問的是籌備處，籌備處成立了沒有？"],["吳次長堂安：還沒。"],["黃委員國昌：還沒有成立？"],["吳次長堂安：我們有先成立籌備小組……"],["黃委員國昌：你們從去年7月18日說要成立籌備處，到現在已經6月了，還沒有成立籌備處？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，籌備小組跟籌備處的性質其實是一樣，都是為了未來要成立發展署。"],["黃委員國昌：你回去看一下你們內政部自己的報告，籌備處跟籌備小組一樣嗎？現在籌備小組的人力有幾個人？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，我們籌備小組是由我擔任召集人……"],["黃委員國昌：是，總共有幾個人？"],["吳次長堂安：幾乎是移民署的同仁都有參加籌備……"],["黃委員國昌：全部？你把他們全部都移到籌備小組裡面去……"],["吳次長堂安：不是，我們籌備小組只是個工作，就是為了未來的組織……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我就問你籌備小組有幾個人？有幾個人？連員額都沒有？"],["吳次長堂安：不是，平常跟我開會的大概都將近15個到20個。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你現在連籌備小組人數有幾個都定不下來？這樣是有在認真的籌備籌備處嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：因為看了你們的報告以後，我就充滿困惑，你們去年11月的時候發了一個聲明，這個聲明現在還在內政部的網站，次長，你們去年11月的聲明跟你們今天提給司法及法制委員會的書面報告，你有沒有比對過？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員指教，我沒有做過這個比對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你可以回去比對一下。因為今天看你們的報告，我讀一讀，覺得似曾相識，這個東西我讀過，後來我回去稍微翻了一下，我果然讀過，你們今天6月提給司法及法制委員會的報告跟你們去年11月寫的東西幾乎是一模一樣，讓我非常的驚訝！所以我才問，你們籌備籌備處的進度到哪裡？有多少人在做這個事？有沒有把它當一回事，認真在做？","你們說署不夠，沒有關係，我們雖然是在野黨，執政黨的困難，我們幫你們處理，所以再度由台灣民眾黨黨團提出中央行政機關組織基準法的修法。你們說署額滿了，執政黨不推動修法，沒關係，在野黨幫你們解決問題，我們推動修法，也三讀通過了，所以現在署數目的法規限制也沒了，現在提升到71個。但大家關心的事情是進度牛步，為什麼會進度牛步？一個月就開一次會，慢慢開，看你要籌備到什麼時候？","我下一個問題，當初制定新住民基本法的時候，我們要給行政院方便，沒想到我們每次給行政院方便，行政院都當隨便，新住民基本法什麼時候要公告實施？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，新住民基本法施行的部分，我們已經有報到行政院去了。"],["黃委員國昌：持續研議？"],["吳次長堂安：應該不會，我們的整個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還要多久？"],["吳次長堂安：這個還是要看院裡。"],["黃委員國昌：所以還是要看院。"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們的卓榮泰院長是不重視新住民的保障嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：不會，院長都很支持。"],["黃委員國昌：如果很支持，可以拖這麼久？什麼時候三讀通過了新住民基本法，你知道嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：去年7月。"],["黃委員國昌：去年7月，現在幾月？"],["吳次長堂安：現在是6月。"],["黃委員國昌：1年了。"],["吳次長堂安：這個中間我們就是成立籌備小組，籌備小組已經開過7次會議了……"],["黃委員國昌：對，用籌備小組……"],["吳次長堂安：對。"],["黃委員國昌：員額不足的籌備小組持續籌備，要籌備到什麼時候？要籌備到什麼時候？不知道。什麼時候要公告施行？不知道。對於我們的行政院來講，不想做的事，能拖就拖、能混就混，持續的研議、持續的拖延、持續的籌備，這個就是我們的民進黨政府在面對我們新住民權益保障的態度嗎？是這樣嗎？請回答。"],["吳次長堂安：照顧新住民是內政部應該做的工作，我們都在積極籌辦中。"],["黃委員國昌：是，那就做，展現具體的行動出來嘛！你們現在告訴新住民朋友的是你們很認真在研議，研議了快1年，持續的研議，新住民基本法什麼時候要公告施行，也不知道，是這樣嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員，我們籌組的業務將近有一百多項……"],["黃委員國昌：非常的繁重，我知道。所以按照你們的能力，業務這麼繁重，還要再籌備多久？再籌備3年夠不夠？再籌備3年，到2028年，再讓你開一次競選支票，再騙一次票，時間夠不夠？夠不夠？3年夠不夠？3年還不夠？"],["吳次長堂安：我們會配合行政院的……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要提出內政部組織法的修法、內政部新住民發展署組織法？行政院版的草案有要提嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，新住民的事務繁瑣，包括文化、勞動、衛福，還有教育，這些跨機關的審議……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以什麼時候送來，也不知道？"],["吳次長堂安：我們會配合基本法施行後來推動。"],["黃委員國昌：今天我們修法有需要等你們嗎？今天法案可不可以出委員會？行政院會不會反對？"],["吳次長堂安：我們尊重委員會。"],["黃委員國昌：尊重委員會，非常的好、非常的好！不要阻擋喔！有關於這些組織法的施行日期，有鑑於當初制定新住民基本法，我們相信行政院，把施行日期給行政院定，沒想到行政院可以混成這個樣子，到今天新住民基本法什麼時候要施行都不敢講，今天台灣民眾黨黨團在最後一條會提修正動議，施行日期會直接定下去，不會再給行政院機會了，之前給你們機會，給你們方便，你們當隨便，讓新住民的朋友等了多久，今天沒有這樣子的待遇了，施行日期直接定下去，希望到時候行政機關依法行政，遵守法律，可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：尊重委員會。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請張智倫委員代理主席。"],["主席（張委員智倫代）：下一位請吳宗憲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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謝謝主席 我們請林部長部長早"},{"start":9.997,"end":35.855,"text":"首先就我們國人旅外的權益還有安全的部分我想來跟部長您做一個討論美國總統川普政府持續以打擊猶太主義為由禁止哈佛大學招收國際生並且對學生的簽證進行限制我國目前有50多位學生可能會受到影響"},{"start":36.676,"end":59.286,"text":"那就這個目前的情況來看這個國土安全部給哈佛大學的這個30天寬限期即將到結束那除了川普和這個哈佛之間的一個衝突問題以外也包括哥倫比亞大學及部長您的母校耶魯大學等這種這個長春藤盟校"},{"start":60.006,"end":68.039,"text":"也都被點名了那先前國際國務院也曾公布學生簽證這個審查和面試的新措施規則"},{"start":70.677,"end":95.857,"text":"部分恐怕會一再的變化那面對諸多不確定的因素讓已經在美國的這個求學的學生或是正在申請當中的相關的實習機會或是申請當中的這些我們簽證的學生都沒辦法安心那我想請教部長就是相關事務是由我們外交部跟教育部一起負責"},{"start":96.638,"end":109.413,"text":"那接下來美國對於這個國際學生的政策可能會如何的發展是否能夠主動來提供我們留學生必要的相關協助報告委員在"},{"start":111.876,"end":133.833,"text":"第一時間我們就透過跟美國在台協會包括跟鼓勵員處長來提洽關注我們留學生的權益那也透過美處跟國務院來進行反應那也在委員這個質詢的最近的發展"},{"start":138.797,"end":167.844,"text":"AIT已經有復告我們就是近日內因為恢復學生簽證的面試受理他的申請也會盡快提供民眾申請的細節就是這邊我想AIT應該在等在華埔整體的Guidelines這個指導的原則就會對外來公布"},{"start":169.264,"end":194.28,"text":"那這個美方在去年公布的這個報告當中,那台灣已經成為美國第五大的國際生的來源那赴美留學的人數已經成長到兩萬三千人左右所以暫停學生簽證的這種面試問題,對於要前往美國深造的同學來講影響甚大"},{"start":195.14,"end":219.287,"text":"我們看到部長剛剛也說對於這個問題已經多次和AIT交涉那除了先前已經預約的這個學生簽證的面試照常進行以外目前還沒有安排面談的這些學生還蠻多的似乎無法再預約面試那即將在九月開學的學生來"},{"start":221.028,"end":237.707,"text":"來講對他們是一個非常大的隱憂雖然我們外交部已經持續和美方在協調但是有關簽證及面試的預約相關的政策我們是否有所轉變的契機能否爭取在近期恢復開放預約"},{"start":239.508,"end":268.23,"text":"是我們平均一年申請到美國的留學生大概有一萬出頭其實已經前面一半左右已經申請而且排的面試的時間大概都陸續進行中現在是本來暫停的是新申請也是可以受理但是面試的時間他沒有辦法安排不過我們最近得到的就是AIT跟我們的"},{"start":270.091,"end":292.904,"text":"回復是很快的時間內就會來恢復有關於學生辦理簽證面試的這個受理至於說細節因為他要上網去公告這個大概目前正在處理中所以暑假期間當然有些暑期班可能會受影響至於說九月開學我想現在時間應該是還相對足夠"},{"start":295.606,"end":323.241,"text":"我們先前也有一些例子包括新北市議員 林津潔議員她有反映她的女兒有申請到美國留學的許可目前都順利辦理完 就是說面試但她的同學 林津潔議員告訴我就是她的女兒的同學就遇到了一些困難也沒辦法安排進去不過按照最新我們得到的訊息應該可以在很快的時間安排面試"},{"start":324.542,"end":348.34,"text":"就是因為在社群上 社群上也有許多可能是要赴美的這些學生他在社群上有留言有看到啦所以我們同理心假設我們家裡有一個孩子是去申請到好的學校我們一定是心急如焚啦所以我在第一時間就有跟同仁講每一個個案我們都要去了解然後關心跟協助他"},{"start":349.1,"end":362.968,"text":"那目前大概就是剩下大概一半還沒有安排面試的我想應該很快的時間他們就可以排上時間那就會比較放心好 謝謝部長這部分再請我們同仁也繼續為我們學生爭取權益"},{"start":365.109,"end":384.136,"text":"那針對近期以色列和伊朗的一個衝突這個問題區域緊張的情勢已經持續在升高當中並且隨時都有可能會產生相關的變化然後我們也看到我們外館已經幫這個目前滯留在以色列280人中的16位已經"},{"start":388.517,"end":409.466,"text":"讓他們辦理這個搭乘專機專車離境那在伊朗的部分我們有九位可是好像沒有聽到說我們對伊朗的部分有這個什麼相關的一個撤僑或是幫他們這個轉進的這個動作這部分我們部長對伊朗的部分因為"},{"start":411.633,"end":440.587,"text":"伊朗是由我們駐杜拜的代表處轄管我們本身並沒有在伊朗的代表處不過就是我們在那邊也有包括駐德惠蘭台貿中心那另外我們也跟其他國家的大使館密切聯繫所以您提到的所謂九位目前已經有三位已經離境那是透過陸路那就是往土庫曼或周邊國家那還有六位國人在伊朗"},{"start":441.027,"end":468.339,"text":"那我們都有跟他們直接聯繫所以任何的狀況我們都會在第一時間來關心跟協助目前都是安全的我想請教部長就是針對我們現在在以色列還有伊朗的所有的國人我們是不是都有確實掌握他們目前是否需要協助的訊息能夠在第一時間假設他們提出需求我們可以幫他們"},{"start":469.119,"end":485.565,"text":"有,因為我們旅外國人動態登錄有一個資料我們現在在住以色列,我們代表處還是辦公的根據以色列政府的安全指引,有一些是居家辦公但是必要的時候還是要到代表處"},{"start":486.385,"end":512.825,"text":"不過我們也看到說我們的代表處附近也因為轟炸有造成一些輕微的毀損甚至我們代表的官邸也算是他們有受損地區我們都密切的關注因為以色列它是都有很多的這些疏散跟安全的措施我們就按照那個指引來辦理"},{"start":514.326,"end":525.572,"text":"那針對以色列的我們的代表處有沒有可能在短期間之內會關閉或是撤離?我們沒有撤管,我們現在就是還是辦公中,當然現在通訊很發達,所以用一個比較彈性的方法來辦公,那也隨著這個"},{"start":536.405,"end":558.787,"text":"中東衝突情勢的變化我們會做好因應部長我想請教以色列的部分我們目前還是設定在第三級的橘色警戒伊朗已經是紅色警戒未來以色列的部分有沒有可能提高警戒的級數我們是這樣我們都按照國際的標準"},{"start":561.309,"end":572.637,"text":"其實以色列在北境跟加薩還是維持紅色的景勢那在其他的地方是列為橙色不過就隨著我們的這個目前的這個"},{"start":576.881,"end":599.301,"text":"安全的情形在做調整那相關來講跟我們維持一樣警示程度的國家也包括韓國日本法國義大利等那當然有些國家有發布全境紅色就是最高警戒不過在橙色跟紅色之間我們基本上我們的這個規範的內容已經是很接近"},{"start":600.642,"end":620.77,"text":"那這部分還是請我們外交部持續關注啦,能夠提供給這個旅外的我們這些國人一個安全的保護以外也可以提供給我們國內民眾要這個赴以色列或是伊朗或是其他中東國家旅遊的時候一個比較新的一個資訊是因為現在的空域"},{"start":621.73,"end":638.761,"text":"都已經管制了很多是透過陸路所以我們是不鼓勵大家這個時候到有戰爭這個衝突跟風險高的地方但是已經在那邊的國人因為有各種因素有些人是已經在那邊有"},{"start":640.902,"end":664.708,"text":"就結婚,家庭在那裡,有一些是讀書或旅遊,或是經商那情形都不太好,我們都是聯繫然後也尊重但是也都會告訴他們,我們政府相關的措施,也會提醒他做好這些安全維護的工作非必要先暫時不要前往?對好,謝謝部長好,謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":77,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時8分）謝謝主席。請林部長，部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，首先就我們國人旅外的權益以及安全的部分來跟部長做討論。美國總統川普政府持續以打擊反猶太主義為由，禁止哈佛大學招收國際生，並且對學生的簽證進行限制，我國目前有五十多位學生可能會受到影響，就目前的情況來看，國土安全部給哈佛大學的30天寬限期即將結束，除了川普和哈佛之間的衝突問題以外，也包括哥倫比亞大學及部長您的母校──耶魯大學等常春藤盟校也都被點名了。先前國務院也曾公布學生簽證審查和面試的新措施，規則部分恐怕會一再的變化，面對諸多不確定因素，讓已經在美國求學的學生，或是正在申請當中的相關的實習機會，或是申請簽證中的這些學生都沒辦法安心。我想請教部長，相關事務是由我們外交部跟教育部一起負責，接下來美國對於國際學生的政策可能會如何發展？是否能夠主動提供我們留學生必要的相關協助？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，第一時間我們就透過跟美國在臺協會，包括跟谷立言處長提洽，關注我們留學生的權益，也透過美處跟國務院反映。委員質詢問及最近的發展，AIT已經有復告我們，近日內應會恢復學生簽證的面試、受理他的申請，也會儘快提供民眾申請的細節，我想AIT應該在等華府整體的指導原則、guideline，就會對外公布。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。美方在去年公布的這個報告當中，臺灣已經成為美國第五大國際生的來源，赴美留學的人數已經成長到2萬3,000人左右，所以暫停學生簽證的面試問題，對於要前往美國深造的同學來講影響甚大。","我們看到部長剛剛也說，對於這個問題已經多次和AIT交涉，除了先前已經預約的學生簽證面試照常進行以外，目前還沒有安排面談的學生還滿多的，似乎無法再預約面試，對於即將在9月開學的學生來講是一個非常大的隱憂。雖然我們外交部已經持續和美方協調，但是有關簽證面試預約的相關政策，我們是否有轉變的契機？能否爭取在近期恢復開放預約？"],["林部長佳龍：我們平均一年申請到美國的留學生大概有一萬出頭，其實前面一半左右已經申請，而且安排的面試時間大概都陸續進行中，現在暫停的是新申請，也是可以受理，但是面試的時間他沒有辦法安排，不過我們最近得到AIT跟我們的回復是，很快的時間內就會恢復有關於學生辦理簽證面試的受理。至於細節，因為他要上網去公告，目前正在處理中，所以暑假期間，當然有些暑期班可能會受影響，至於說9月開學，我想現在時間應該是還相對足夠。我們先前也有一些例子，包括新北市議員林金結議員有反映他的女兒有申請到美國的留學許可，目前都順利辦理完，就是面試的部分，但是林金結議員告訴我他女兒的同學就遇到了一些困難，沒辦法安排進去，不過按照我們得到的最新訊息，應該可以在很快的時間安排面試。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。因為在社群上有看到許多可能是要赴美的學生留言，所以這部分……"],["林部長佳龍：我們同理心，假設我們家裡有一個孩子申請到好的學校，我們一定是心急如焚。"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["林部長佳龍：所以我在第一時間就跟同仁講，每一個個案我們都要去了解，然後關心跟協助他。目前大概就是剩下一半還沒有安排面試的，我想應該很快他們就可以排上時間，那就會比較放心。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長，這部分再請同仁繼續為我們學生爭取權益。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：針對近期以色列和伊朗衝突的問題，區域緊張的情勢已經持續在升高當中，並且隨時都有可能會產生相關的變化。我們也看到我們外館已經幫目前滯留在以色列的280人中的16位辦理搭乘專車離境，在伊朗的部分有9位，可是好像沒有聽到我們對伊朗的部分有相關的撤僑，或是幫他們轉境的動作，部長對於伊朗的部分……"],["林部長佳龍：因為伊朗是由我們駐杜拜的代表處轄管，我們本身並沒有在伊朗有代表處，不過我們在那邊也有德黑蘭臺貿中心，另外我們也跟其他國家的大使館密切聯繫，所以您提到的這9位，目前有3位已經離境，是透過陸路，就是往土庫曼或周邊國家，還有6位國人在伊朗，我們都有跟他們直接聯繫，所以任何的狀況，我們都會在第一時間關心跟協助，目前都是安全的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我想請教部長，針對現在在以色列還有伊朗的所有國人，我們是不是都有確實掌握他們目前是否需要協助的訊息，假設他們提出需求，在第一時間我們可以幫他們？"],["林部長佳龍：有，因為我們旅外國人動態登錄有一個資料，我們現在駐以色列代表處還是有辦公的，根據以色列政府的安全指引，有一些是居家辦公，但是必要的時候還是要到代表處。不過我們也看到我們代表處附近因為轟炸，有造成一些輕微毀損，甚至我們代表的官邸也是有受損地區，我們都密切的關注，因為以色列有很多疏散跟安全的措施，我們就按照那個指引來辦理。"],["陳委員俊宇：針對我們在以色列的代表處，有沒有可能在短期間之內會關閉或是撤離？"],["林部長佳龍：我們沒有撤館，現在就還是辦公中，當然現在通訊很發達，所以是用比較彈性的方法辦公，也隨著中東衝突情勢的變化，我們會做好因應。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。部長，我想請教，以色列的部分我們目前還是設定在第三級橘色警戒，伊朗已經是紅色警戒，未來以色列的部分有沒有可能提高警戒級數？"],["林部長佳龍：我們是這樣，我們都按照國際的標準，其實對以色列，在北境跟加薩還是維持紅色警示，其他地方則是列為橙色，就是隨著目前的安全情形在做調整，跟我們維持一樣警示程度的國家包括韓國、日本、法國、義大利等，當然有些國家有發布全境紅色，就是最高警戒，不過在橙色跟紅色之間，基本上我們規範的內容已經是很接近了。"],["陳委員俊宇：這部分還是請外交部持續關注，能夠提供給旅外國人一個安全的保護以外，也可以提供給我們國內民眾要赴以色列或伊朗或是其他中東國家旅遊時一個比較新的資訊。"],["林部長佳龍：是。因為現在空運都已經管制了，很多是透過陸路，所以我們不鼓勵大家這個時候到有戰爭衝突跟風險高的地方，但是已經在那邊的國人，因為有各種因素，有些人是已經在那邊結婚，家庭在那裡，有一些是讀書或旅遊或是經商，情形都不太一樣，我們都有聯繫，也尊重，但是也都告訴他們我們政府相關的措施，也會提醒他們做好安全維護的工作。"],["陳委員俊宇：非必要先暫時不要前往。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員的質詢。","接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a732d9e7ea912727ed2eab1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謝謝主席 本席有請吳次長吳次長有請我想今天大家在談我們今天的有關新住民的不管是組織法或者是整個發展署"},{"start":26.383,"end":46.695,"text":"這個的組織法草案但是大家都要談到的包括您剛剛在答詢的時候也提到就是說其實新住民的權益新住民朋友他來到我們台灣這個整個的生活工作就業各方面他們有很多需要我們政府做得更多更好"},{"start":47.975,"end":71.471,"text":"今天本席這短短的時間我想特別針對我們新住民朋友在職場的平權還有他就跟職場相關的職訓的部分來跟您來討論首先第一個就是說新住民我們如果要打造一個就業平權的環境"},{"start":72.873,"end":77.999,"text":"目前您所了解的我們現在最欠缺的是什麼"},{"start":80.851,"end":108.359,"text":"那我想這邊簡單跟委員報告我想新住民計劃法還沒通過之前其實移民署都有相關的新住民的業務那就是包括語言、勞動、就業、教育、文化你剛剛有講那以這些主軸來講的話那對於他的勞動權益的部分那其實我們從去年開始之後我們做籌備小組那這個我們也是包括像勞動部哪一些業務本身是他繼承的業務那他的業務如果哪些可以移撥到我這邊來"},{"start":108.899,"end":136.458,"text":"好 那等一下 我現在時間很短 我要focus一點現在有很大的問題反映出來我們這個新住民朋友他們的這種低薪超時的情況當然我們台灣勞工可能也有但是他們感覺起來也有相對低薪超時還有他們在文化差異或語言差異下所受到的歧視剛剛我相信前面很多委員都有質詢過"},{"start":138.039,"end":152.405,"text":"所以這一塊我們有沒有更積極而且具體的一些改善跟具體的做法是我想謝委員我想您剛談的這些部分其實我們也會後續跟勞動部來做個討論因為確實這個今天勞動部沒來應該沒有有"},{"start":168.264,"end":195.476,"text":"王副組長委員好剛剛我們所提到的就是現在新住民朋友怎麼樣為新住民打造一個就業平權的環境這個我想新住民朋友這個方面的需求已經很多年了但是我們希望能夠真正面對而且很具體是"},{"start":196.724,"end":212.222,"text":"其實你們所做的努力你重點是講一下我們新住民在台灣其實他的就業權益就跟我們的國人的所有權益的保障都是相同的這個概念是沒有錯"},{"start":213.644,"end":232.565,"text":"那如果說他在工作上他有遇到其實我們其實其實我們在他的就業情況的調查其實也有發現就是說我們陸配呀在職場上受到特別針對陸配現在太敏感了對對我們整個的新住民好不好包含東南亞各方面因為我們也看到"},{"start":233.786,"end":252.9,"text":"新住民朋友有些他比如說高學歷高失業率或是高學歷然後但是他的薪資比一般還要低所以這一塊我們應該想一些方法來這個就是平權嘛既然我們的政府也一直強調平權我想他們都已經規劃成為我們中華民國國民"},{"start":256.142,"end":273.828,"text":"然後再來確實存在的文化差異跟語言差異我們應該要更積極我相信一直以來都有在做但是如果這種情況還是存在表示什麼我們過去做的根本沒有燒到洋處還有只是做個表面或是做個敷衍交代這樣是不好的"},{"start":274.727,"end":301.224,"text":"因為包括我相信很多委員我們不斷的接觸新住民以及新住民的領袖他們還是一直反映需要的是這個那為什麼我今天的質詢特別強調職業就是因為職業這個他可以伴隨他最長等於他這一生他來到這他工作的職場時間可能三四十年那所以我們希望這一塊能夠來加強"},{"start":305.851,"end":309.595,"text":"現在沒有什麼特別具體的作為因為時間的關係 再來我們這個"},{"start":314.736,"end":335.884,"text":"新住民我們應該除了剛剛我所講的之外沒有沒有一起我接著講的也還是這種職訓對於他們的各種職業類型我知道有在辦但是好像這個一些職業訓練或者是他的就業媒合平台還是很不足"},{"start":336.764,"end":357.92,"text":"那這個部分包含高階一點的高階執訓有沒有特別在做他們如果考證照因為他是新住民嘛那當然我們一般民眾本來就需要考證照但他們因為比較特殊的不管語言或生活文化的差異我們有沒有特殊的協助"},{"start":359.806,"end":386.413,"text":"我們這邊對於職業訓練的需求其實目前最大宗的就是美容美髮業然後在民宿管理業那成長最多的其實我們在電腦資訊業電腦及資訊類別這邊也有一些那我請問所謂的高階職訓班你們有沒有特別有規劃因為我們有分一般的職訓還有高階"},{"start":387.641,"end":411.331,"text":"其實他們的訓練都是都一樣就是說如果他可以符合需求其實都可以參加我們的所有的訓練他都是可以參加的好那最後我想問的是為什麼他們那種特別高學歷可是呢他可能失業率也比我們一般同樣學歷的我們的民眾特別他失業率特高這個情況你們有重視嗎這我最後一個問題"},{"start":412.171,"end":425.861,"text":"其實在我們的調查裡面我們新住民他的勞參率跟失業率其實跟我們一般民眾的比起來他勞參率在112年是75%比我們一般民眾勞參率59.5%還要高那是失業率你那是整體失業率"},{"start":436.607,"end":443.286,"text":"那我指的是比較高學歷的 失業率你們有了解到這一塊嗎"},{"start":445.843,"end":468.916,"text":"也就是說他不管他是新住民之子還是本身他就是屬於比較有專業而且高學歷的他來到台灣他好像很難融入我們的職場那我們其實可以善用我也看到這個在社會上包含我們這個各雜誌媒體他們也在呼籲這一塊是不是這一塊可以要來加強"},{"start":470.777,"end":477.464,"text":"其實你們要重視 今天我諮詢了你們真的要重視 社會上已經討論很多了今天好像還沒有辦法回答本席的問題 表示我們希望再加強好不好"},{"start":492.423,"end":520.199,"text":"有關高學歷我會到時候連同教育單位因為大概有些是來台灣就學的那如果說他可以留在台灣這個也是一種那另外就是說來台灣就學沒有留在台灣他沒有規劃我們的我講的倒不是我講的是我們中華民國國民裡面是新住民的部分就是已經是變成中華民國國民的新住民對好不好這個我們會連同勞動部跟教育部都可以一起討論好那我想說未來我們這個會麻煩一定要加強好 謝謝"},{"start":522.862,"end":522.884,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時2分）謝謝主席。本席有請吳次長。"],["主席：吳次長有請。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：大家在談有關新住民不管是組織法或者是整個發展署的組織法草案，包括你剛剛答詢的時候也提到，其實就是新住民的權益，新住民朋友來到臺灣，整個生活、工作就業各方面有很多需要政府做得更多更好。今天本席短短的時間，特別針對新住民朋友在職場的平權，還有跟職場相關的職訓部分，來跟您討論。","首先，就是要打造一個新住民就業平權的環境，目前您所了解的，現在最欠缺的是什麼？"],["吳次長堂安：這邊簡單跟委員報告，新住民基本法還沒有通過之前，其實移民署就有相關的新住民業務，包括語言、勞動、就業、教育、文化……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你剛剛有講。"],["吳次長堂安：以這些主軸來講的話，對於他們勞動權益部分，其實我們從去年開始之後做籌備小組，包括找勞動部，哪些業務是它本身既存業務，哪些業務可以移撥到我們這邊來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下，因為時間很短，我要focus。現在有很大問題反映出新住民朋友低薪超時的情況，當然臺灣勞工可能也有，但他們相對感覺起來也有低薪超時，還有他們因文化差異或語言差異下所受到的歧視，剛剛我相信前面很多委員都有質詢過，所以這塊有沒有更積極而且具體的改善作法？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。您剛剛談的部分，後續我們也會跟勞動部討論，確實這個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天勞動部沒派人來？"],["吳次長堂安：應該沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：欸！有、有、有。請王副組長。"],["王副組長雅芬：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛我們提到現在新住民朋友的問題，怎麼樣為新住民打造一個就業平權的環境？新住民朋友有這方面的需求已經很多年了，但是我們希望能夠真正面對而且有很具體的做法。請針對你們所做的努力重點式地講一下。"],["王副組長雅芬：新住民在臺灣的就業權益跟所有國人的權益保障都是相同的，如果說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個概念是沒有錯！"],["王副組長雅芬：如果他在工作上有遇到歧視，其實我們在他的就業情況調查也有發現，陸配在職場上受到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不要特別針對陸配，現在太敏感了！"],["王副組長雅芬：對、對，不好意思……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們整個的新住民好不好？"],["王副組長雅芬：是、是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含東南亞各方面。因為我們也看到有些新住民朋友比如說高學歷、高失業率，或是高學歷，但是他的薪資比一般還要低，所以這一塊我們應該想一些方法。這個就是平權嘛！既然我們的政府也一直強調平權，何況他們都已經歸化成為中華民國國民了。","再來是確實存在的文化差異和語言差異，這部分我們應該要更積極。我相信你們一直以來都有在做，但如果這種情況還是存在，就表示我們過去做的根本沒有搔到癢處，還有，只是做個表面或者是敷衍、交代，這樣是不好的！我相信很多委員都在不斷接觸新住民以及新住民的領袖，他們還是一直反映需要的是這個。","為什麼我今天的質詢特別強調職業？就是因為職業伴隨他最長，等於他這一生，他來到這裡，處在工作職場的時間可能會有三、四十年。所以我們希望這一塊能夠來加強，可是現在卻沒有什麼特別具體的作為。","因為時間的關係，除了剛才我所講的之外，我知道有在針對新住民舉辦各種職業類型的職訓，但就業媒合平臺還是很不足，這個部分包含高階一點的高階職訓有沒有特別在做？證照方面，一般民眾本來就需要考證照，但新住民如果要考證照，因為有語言或生活、文化的差異，我們有沒有提供特殊的協助？"],["王副組長雅芬：有，職業訓練需求目前最大宗的就是美容美髮業，然後是民宿管理業，成長最多的是電腦資訊業，電腦及資訊類別這邊也有一些……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我請問，對於所謂的高階職訓班，你們有沒有特別的規劃？因為我們有分一般的職訓和高階的職訓。"],["王副組長雅芬：其實他們的訓練都一樣，就是如果符合需求，都可以參加我們所有的訓練。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後我想問的是，為什麼他們特別高學歷的人，失業率也比我們一般同樣學歷的民眾高？這個情況你們有重視嗎？這是我最後一個問題。"],["王副組長雅芬：其實在我們的調查裡面，有關新住民的勞參率及失業率，和我們一般民眾比起來，他們的勞參率在112年是75%，比我們一般民眾勞參率的59.2%還要高……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，我指的是高學歷的部分。"],["王副組長雅芬：失業率方面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說的是整體失業率。"],["王副組長雅芬：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我指的是比較高學歷者的失業率，你們有瞭解到這一塊嗎？"],["王副組長雅芬：這個部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：也就是說，不管是新住民之子還是本身就屬於有專業而且高學歷的新住民，他們來到臺灣好像很難融入我們的職場，我們其實可以善用。我也看到社會上，包含各雜誌媒體也在呼籲這一塊，所以這一塊是不是要來加強？"],["王副組長雅芬：是。對於高學歷的部分，我們再去拆解一下那個數字，把它……"],["徐委員欣瑩：其實你們要重視。對於我今天的質詢，你們真的要重視，對於這件事情，社會上的討論已經很多了，可是你們今天好像還沒有辦法回答本席的問題，表示這個部分需要再加強，好不好？"],["吳次長堂安：好，有關高學歷的問題，我們到時候會連同教育單位，因為有些是來臺灣就學的，如果可以留在臺灣，這個是一種，另外就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，我講的倒不是來臺灣就學卻沒有留在臺灣、沒有歸化的，我講的是中華民國國民裡面是新住民的部分。"],["吳次長堂安：就是已經變成中華民國國民的新住民？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，好不好？"],["吳次長堂安：好，這個部分我們未來會連同勞動部和教育部一起來討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，麻煩一定要加強。謝謝。"],["吳次長堂安：瞭解。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。"],["主席（徐委員欣瑩代）：下一位請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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去通過的"},{"start":255.526,"end":276.265,"text":"而且人工生育的補助本來就健保沒有這一部分嘛他是要自費那自費當然人家民眾自然是自費他就針對隱私性跟就醫的方便性民眾當然會選擇自費診所嘛"},{"start":279.241,"end":290.419,"text":"所以對於自費診所或者醫院他是不是報稅紀錄完備財政部應該自己去查查就如同"},{"start":291.707,"end":319.22,"text":"就如同財政部現在我們針對民眾你如果租屋租金你可以來抵稅報這個你要求的也只是說你那個租金是不是你實質有租金的支出的這個憑證這樣就好嘛你會去要求說你要提出你的房東他報稅紀錄是否完備嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":320.134,"end":342.275,"text":"不是嗎所以我不懂我不懂那個部長我到現在一直不懂你們為什麼這麼執著這一點啦要獎勵我們國人同胞要獎勵大家聲譽這個是國安問題國家的政策我希望你能夠配合而且喔部長我"},{"start":347.452,"end":371.94,"text":"看你這一年多來吼 我的看法 我認為你確實你是奉公守法啦 但是奉公守法只是部長們 只是官員們你們該做的第一步而已耶那如果我看你這一年多來的表現 我八個字形容你是墨守成規 便宜行事"},{"start":373.086,"end":395.904,"text":"不是這樣嗎我一再的 一再多次質詢裡面我一再的說希望財政部在你的領導下能夠四個字 與時俱進各項的稅法我們該用綠色稅制的就用綠色稅制不合一的娛樂稅"},{"start":399.874,"end":411.74,"text":"這個印花稅包括昨天我們討論半天那個小家電那個近乎擾民我們列舉了這些小家電一年這個貨物稅收11億"},{"start":414.199,"end":430.53,"text":"結果不但擾民過去我們要收的部分是因為說這些小家電是奢侈品現在時代這麼進步啦這些小家電是家家戶戶必備的結果昨天討論了半天 一樣"},{"start":432.432,"end":449.557,"text":"你確實是規規矩矩你就是死不讓步昨天討論了一整天半天十億多我們大概好像只減了三千多萬你真的這個部分我希望"},{"start":452.13,"end":475.028,"text":"能夠與時俱進 十一億元去擾民我們一年收入是 國家稅收是三兆一千億耶 天啊那連尾數的尾數的尾數 好不好我希望你四個字 與時俱進然後 我今天繼續質詢你的這件事情就是說"},{"start":477.7,"end":505.747,"text":"這個診所是不是報稅紀錄完備這個不應該列為我們民眾生育支出那麼去抵稅不應該列為這個裡面的條件可不可以不鼓勵都來不及了嘛好不好謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分的生育跟因為他是跟醫療是一起在裡面的所以他有一定的一個"},{"start":506.587,"end":507.974,"text":"部分的處理 是"},{"start":509.893,"end":537.022,"text":"那你我希望你還是給我答覆啦你不能推給說啊這個法令啊這個什麼法令你可以欸財政部一天到晚自己主動提出修法的太多啦你們主動提出由行政院提出來這個很簡單就解決啦好不好我希望你重新給我一份答覆好謝謝委員謝謝你請你請回抱歉時間在我請那個衛福部邱部長來邱部長請"},{"start":544.046,"end":563.818,"text":"邱院長邱部長兩個問題第一個問題就是說最近這個毒品氾濫透過電子菸那麼更滲入到青少年朋友尤其有一種新的這個伊朵米子就是喪屍煙彈那這個部分我們"},{"start":567.93,"end":582.984,"text":"教育部統計我們高中職學生我們以一百一十二學年度來講五十五萬八千位那麼國建署也有統計說大概大概初高中生有六點三個Percent那會使用這個電子菸"},{"start":585.166,"end":608.212,"text":"那電子煙我們現在嚴禁因為它的煙油裡面會參入這一些會毒害青少年朋友的所以如果照6.3%55萬8千位光高中職生喔那應該會有3.5萬極可能使用電子煙的我們的青年朋友但是"},{"start":610.25,"end":620.418,"text":"我查了一下你們兩年來衛福部中央跟地方衛生局我們所查獲開立處分數的這1021件我認為這個比例過低我們已是會使用電子菸這個數字已經是少估"},{"start":631.886,"end":650.479,"text":"然後你兩年只查緝一千零二十一件我認為這個查緝不夠徹底所以我希望在這個部分可以加強可不可以因為你像菸娟我們收了兩百六十四億那你有九成用在我們醫療保健這是對的但是"},{"start":653.786,"end":670.879,"text":"用在要對青少年朋友的這個宣導的部分我認為應該提升也就是說我們要進校園去宣導而且要加強查緝好不好你要通靈我們加強查緝好 謝謝各市"},{"start":673.902,"end":681.386,"text":"各地方政府衛生局請他們大家一起通力合作我們中央地方會一起努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1013,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時55分）謝謝主席，我請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長，我還是要問前幾天的問題，為什麼民眾實際支出生育的手術費，他可否抵稅還要取決於這個診所是不是報稅完備，是不是會計紀錄完備？","我前幾天就講過，臺灣已經躍升為全世界生育率最低的國家，4月生不到1萬人，只有生8,600人，比去年同期少了20%，我們平均每一位女性國人同胞平均生育0.8位，這已經低於那麼低生育率的日本，日本平均生育1.3位，我們平均生育0.8位，所以現在生育率過低已經是我們的國安問題，也就是說，提高生育率是我們國家政策，也是各部會機關應該積極配合去促成的。結果，各單位包含衛福部國健署、教育部，他們都在配合宣導、鼓勵，獨獨財政部，我不懂為什麼啦，你們財政部用不給予抵稅來逼生育的國人同胞去幫財政部查稅，看看這個診所、這家醫院是不是報稅紀錄完備？這很奇怪，該查診所或醫院是不是有完整的會計紀錄、完整的報稅，這是財政部的職責，但是不能便宜行事，不是嗎？財政部竟然駕馭各個機關部會幫你們去查稅，用不能抵稅、用懲罰民眾來達成你們的目的，這很奇怪！","我前幾天質詢之後，你給我的公文答復，我才發現糟糕，還更慘。在答復我的公文裡面，你自己還從實招來，說去年4月份你們就發文給衛福部，要求人工生殖補助方案應該限縮在向你們財政部申請會計紀錄完備的診所。天啊！還好當時衛福部的答復很好，衛福部說：縮小補助範圍會影響民眾就醫的可近性。他用這個理由把你拒絕掉，他們是正確的，而且人工生殖補助這件事，這個診所是不是合格、合規，這是國健署他們去核可的，他們以醫療專業去看這個醫師技術夠不夠、是不是達到水準、設備規模是不是沒問題，他們就專業的評估去通過的，而且人工生育補助本來健保就沒有這部分嘛，他是要自費，既然是自費，針對隱私性及就醫的方便性，民眾當然會選擇自費診所嘛！所以對於自費診所或者醫院是不是報稅紀錄完備，財政部應該自己去查察，就如同財政部現在針對民眾，如果有租屋在報稅時，租金可以來抵稅，你們要求的也只是那個租金是不是實質有租屋，並且有租金支出的憑證，這樣就好了，難道你們會去要求他要提出房東的報稅紀錄是否完備嗎？沒有嘛，不是嗎？所以我不懂、我不懂，部長，我到現在一直不懂你們為什麼這麼執著這一點啦！要獎勵我們國人同胞、要獎勵大家生育，這個是國安問題及國家政策，我希望你們能夠配合。","部長，我看你這一年多來，我的看法認為你確實是奉公守法啦！但是奉公守法只是部長們、只是官員們該做的第一步而已，我看你這一年多來的表現，我8個字形容，你是「墨守成規，便宜行事」，不是這樣嗎？我在多次質詢裡一再的說，希望財政部在你的領導下能夠做到4個字「與時俱進」，針對各項的稅法，你們該用綠色稅制的，就用綠色稅制，不合宜的娛樂稅及印花稅，包括昨天我們討論半天的小家電，那個近乎是擾民耶！我們列舉了這些小家電一年的貨物稅徵收了11億，結果不但擾民，過去我們要收的原因是因為這些小家電是奢侈品，唉！現在時代這麼進步了，這些小家電是家家戶戶必備的，結果昨天討論了半天還是一樣，你確實是規規矩矩啦！你就是死不讓步，昨天討論了一整個半天，11億多大概好像只減了三千多萬，我希望能夠與時俱進，收這11億元去擾民，我們國家一年稅收是3兆1,000億耶，天啊！那是尾數的尾數的尾數，好不好？我希望你能做到4個字「與時俱進」，然後我今天繼續質詢你的這件事情，就是診所是不是報稅紀錄完備，不應該列為我們民眾生育支出能否抵稅的條件，可不可以？鼓勵都來不及了嘛，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教。有關這個部分，因為生育是跟醫療一起在裡面的，所以它有一定的處理。"],["王委員世堅：好，我希望你還是要給我答復啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["王委員世堅：你不能推到這個法令啊，這個什麼的。法令你可以……財政部自己一天到晚主動提出的修法太多啦！你們主動提出，由行政院提送來，這個很簡單就解決啦，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們會提出。"],["王委員世堅：我希望你重新給我一份答復。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝，你請回。抱歉，時間暫停，我請衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：邱部長，我有兩個問題：第一個問題是最近毒品氾濫是透過電子煙，更滲入到青少年朋友，尤其有一種新的毒品叫「依托咪酯」，就是「喪屍煙彈」。根據教育部統計我們高中職學生人數，以112學年度來講是55萬8,000位，國健署也有統計大概粗估高中生有6.3%會使用這種電子煙，我們現在針對電子煙是嚴禁的，因為它的煙油裡面會摻入這一些尼古丁會毒害青少年朋友的，所以如果照6.3%來計算，光在55萬8,000位的高中生中，應該就有3.5萬的青年朋友極可能使用電子煙，但是我查了一下，你們衛福部兩年來，中央跟地方衛生局所查獲開立處分書的只有1,021件，我認為這個比例過低，疑似會使用電子煙的，這個數字已經是少估。你們兩年只查緝1,021件，我認為這個查緝不夠澈底，所以我希望在這個部分可以加強，可不可以？因為像菸捐，我們收了264億，有九成用在我們醫療保健，這是對的，但是用在對青少年朋友宣導的部分，我認為應該要提升，也就是你們要進校園去宣導，而且要加強查緝，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的。我們會加查緝……"],["王委員世堅：你要通令你們衛福部及各地方政府衛生局，請他們大家一起通力合作，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們中央跟地方會一起努力，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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它倒不是政黨之間大家攻防的問題 倒不是本期倒認為是說 你如果說多一個署那你對我新住民來講的話 我要多一大堆表格或者說 給一個機關 變成一個衙門而已會不會多一份的一個折騰啊就是說機關的設立以後 我期待啊 要有溫度啦"},{"start":348.738,"end":361.271,"text":"這真的就是要有溫度啦 阿沒有喔 因為冷冰冰喔 只是流程的一個堆疊而已啊所以我來請教就是說 跨部會的分工喔 到最後 你這不能稍怕乾 你知不知道 很怕到要"},{"start":365.353,"end":383.33,"text":"讓人覺得在那裡踢皮球啦所以你如何去精準的界定誰該負責些什麼如何去讓它變成有效率跟有效能的一個協調平台我認為這個就很重要了這個面對這樣的一個廣泛的跨部會的性質大家都非常清楚啊你怎麼去劃分啊避免讓新住民在那裡"},{"start":388.11,"end":400.536,"text":"繞圈圈 我覺得這個就 我先講在前頭啦就是我們這整個草案裡面 就是這幾個問題啦另外你說說新的署跟移民署 這個林署長你就必須要去看待這個問題啦你也不能分別先做"},{"start":403.337,"end":418.047,"text":"你也不能說這樣不明不白你像譬如說以目前你移民署你負責路徑 拘留 規劃這現在你移民署的嘛可是呢你新署以後又著引於權益的保障跟社會的一個融入要怎麼簽"},{"start":419.537,"end":436.31,"text":"你說業務沒有移波 你不可能啊那所以說呢 你在現實中新住民來台初期他最需要的其實是什麼 語言嘛 語言的訓練嘛那你說生活適應啊 或者說要找工作 就業的一個媒合那請問啊 這一些業務到最後"},{"start":437.031,"end":445.745,"text":"你是你移民署 你現在你扶著板 正經就好那個證照就好了然後新的 新的成立了一個署那你來從那裡輔導 都從那裡包開還是你們兩邊再這樣去重疊請教社長"},{"start":451.391,"end":467.44,"text":"那這個朋友是不是請署長因為我之前在開會的時候也是針對哪一些是要業務移撥哪一些是留在移民署的就是像剛剛委員談的除了靜之外因為他可能身份是新住民那新住民之後他進來的時候哪一些業務從既有的移民署業務我就把它移撥到"},{"start":468.28,"end":489.955,"text":"那個新住民發展署大概是這樣那如果細節我再請署長說一下所以就是涉及到你漁民署你本來是側重權益的保障跟融入的輔導你新住民發展署你接下來掌管的是從那個入境 拘留 規劃取得甚至國局法律身份這些事情你們就要明確去做一個劃分了啦那另外啊"},{"start":490.865,"end":510.444,"text":"我相信移民署現在是被大家口碑最好的就是你們那個一站式的服務啦新住民我看他們是最熟悉的那我要問的就是說那你新的署成立以後民眾是不是還在原服務站一站就可以搞定所有的諮詢跟申辦"},{"start":517.689,"end":537.322,"text":"因為如果新住民發展署成立之後他各縣市的手腳會回歸到所謂的新住民家庭服務中心那新住民家庭服務中心透過我們所謂的新住民發展基金裡面去做對各縣市做補助目前有41個處所包括有公辦公營跟公辦民營委託代辦這個部分"},{"start":541.445,"end":557.934,"text":"所以耳後的話當然我們服務站我們在這個過渡階段裡面我們也會對於新住民他相關的權益保障有需要就諮詢的部分我們會協助做一個轉介但是發展署成立之後他耳後的手腳會歸到所謂的這個新住民家庭服務中心以上"},{"start":558.274,"end":586.768,"text":"好 新署的成立的誕生我跟你講我們樂觀其成但是我們很怕一個機關的誕生你到最後讓老百姓多走了一些遠廣路你多設一個署其實沒有困難 很容易但是你怎麼樣少讓這些新住民多跑一趟路啊這個才是我們設立這個的真本事啦所以這個涉及到整個新機關的一個成立我們立場其實就很簡單啦新住民他不是一個族群啦"},{"start":587.389,"end":608.068,"text":"他其實就是用家人的概念這樣去看待那我們期待這一些我們今天新竹的一個成立業務權責分清楚讓他變成新住民的一個靠山你共足一個不只是共榮還是要共榮的一個台灣這個業務的部分我相信在主條的時候你們也要跟各個機關你們要把這個事權去弄清楚好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時47分）謝謝主席。有請內政部吳次長、移民署林署長、大陸委員會法政處周處長。"],["主席：麻煩次長、署長、周處長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，我來請教，整個新住民的人數，你們現在的統計是多少人？"],["吳次長堂安：新住民人數，目前如果照新住民基本法第一百二十條，婚姻移民、新住民子女跟專業及技術移民，加起來大概130萬。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一百多少？"],["吳次長堂安：130萬。"],["莊委員瑞雄：130萬。我想行政院這一次沒有院版，可能就是你們有所疑慮，本席的看法是認為整個新住民發展署的成立，代表臺灣多元共榮的一個里程碑，也就代表你剛提到的將近130萬新住民莊嚴的一個承諾，你們不用擔心，政府當你們的靠山，是在講這個。但是業務的部分，我就有一點點意見，譬如在整個基本法裡面，陸配也算啊！可是今天看陸委會提出來的講法，又說新住民事務主管機關成立以後，不涉及陸委會業務的調整，也沒有業務需要移撥到新住民事務主管機關，你們是這樣講的。這個部分我又有點疑慮了，現在涉及到陸配，如果兩岸之間的往返，當然大家現在會說陸委會委託海基會行使公權力，那好了，新的機關成立以後，新的署就這一塊能有辦法處理嗎？到時候還是海基會在處理，那今天陸委會的報告怎麼會說跟我們無涉，真的無涉嗎？請說明。"],["周處長鳴瑞：委員好。首先說明兩點，第一點，陸委會的組織設立一直是做政策協調、政策擬定……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在講的是，你們當然是負責政策的協調跟規劃，實際上涉及到兩岸人民之間往返裡面，有很多涉及新住民的部分，以目前來講的話，是由陸委會委託海基會協助來行使公權力，新的署成立以後，這個業務怎麼辦？"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，針對陸配的部分，我們委託海基會處理的很多是屬於公權力以外的服務事項……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！就是服務。"],["周處長鳴瑞：對，是服務事項，針對陸配本身在法律上應有的權益，還是會回歸到原來的移民署或將來成立的新住民發展署來處理，譬如身分的取得、入出境的許可，這都是跟公權力有關的事項，不會由海基會來發，現在也不是由海基會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然！那服務的呢？本來一個機關成立以後，很多涉及到人民的福利、保障等原來就是屬於新設立機關的職掌，可是這塊陸委會也是一樣在做，新的署成立以後，涉及到兩岸的部分，它還是沒辦法去做。"],["周處長鳴瑞：我們對於陸配的關懷跟服務，一樣還是會持續做。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我知道，但是會重疊，到最後就不是新設立的新移民發展署，不管名字叫做什麼。新住民發展署如果成立以後，到最後不是新住民發展署委託海基會來行使公權力，而還是由陸委會委託海基會行使公權力。"],["周處長鳴瑞：這部分我們……"],["莊委員瑞雄：有沒有這樣的問題？有吧！"],["周處長鳴瑞：基本上，現在如果是以移民署在做的話，是還好。將來成立……"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在當然沒有，我是說將來新的機關成立以後。"],["周處長鳴瑞：對於這一塊，我們認為不會有太大的問題，因為不涉及公權力問題的話，還是可以請海基會繼續來做，都是服務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果沒有涉及到行使公權力的話……"],["周處長鳴瑞：對，不會有問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：機關就不是義務、就不是責任的問題，照顧後面常常因為叫做公權力，你怎麼會跟我說都沒有？你們還沒講清楚。這個就是你們還沒有提出來院版的原因之一，這個部分再好好想一想，好不好？"],["周處長鳴瑞：謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外我以臺東為例，新住民人口現在差不多超過2%，其實對他們來看，每天碰到的笑容、汗水，早就已經深深地融入這一塊土地，他們已經都不是過客了，我們都算是把他們當作家人來看待。但是社會上擔心，尤其今天在委員會審查，我相信這個草案不是政黨之間攻防的問題，本席倒認為，如果多一個署對新住民來講的話，要多一大堆表格，或者只是多了一個機關變成一個衙門而已，會不會多一份的折騰？也就是說機關的設立之後，我期待要有溫度，真的就是要有溫度，不然冷冰冰，只是流程的堆疊而已。所以我要請教的是，跨部會的分工到最後，不能互相打結，你知道嗎？很怕到最後被人家覺得在互踢皮球。如何精準地界定誰該負責些什麼，如何讓它變成有效率跟有效能的一個協調平臺，我認為這個就很重要，面對這樣一個廣泛、跨部會的性質，大家都非常清楚，要怎麼去劃分？避免讓新住民在那邊繞圈圈，我先講在前頭，整個草案裡面就是這幾個問題。","另外，新的署跟移民署，不能分得不清楚，也不能不明不白。林署長，你必須要去看待這個問題。比如目前入境、居留、歸化是移民署權管的，可是新署又著眼於權益的保障跟社會的融入，要怎麼切割？業務沒有移撥，也不可能啊！在現實中新住民來臺初期，最需要的是什麼？語言嘛！語言的訓練。生活適應或者要找工作的就業媒合，請問這些業務到最後是移民署負責辦證件、證照就好了，然後新成立的一個署將這些有關輔導的部分全都包含進來？還是你們兩邊業務這樣重疊？請教次長？"],["吳次長堂安：這個部分是不是請署長說明，因為我之前在開會的時候也是針對哪一些是要業務移撥？哪一些是留在移民署？就誠如剛剛委員談的，出入境之外，因為可能身分是新住民，他進來之後，哪一些業務從既有的移民署業務移撥到新住民發展署，細節的部分，我再請署長說明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以就是涉及到移民署本來就是側重權利保障跟融入輔導，新住民發展署掌管的是從入境、居留、歸化到取得國籍的法律身分事項，這些事情要明確劃分。","另外，現在移民署口碑最好的一站式服務，是新住民最熟悉的，我要問的是新的署成立之後，民眾是否在原來服務站一站搞定所有的諮詢跟申辦？簡單來說就是擔心冤枉路啦。"],["林署長宏恩：這裡跟委員報告，新住民發展署成立之後，各縣市手腳會回歸到新住民家庭服務中心，新住民家庭服務中心透過我們所謂的新住民發展基金對各縣市補助，目前有41個處所，包括公辦公營、公辦民營、委託代辦部分，服務站在這個過渡階段當然也會保障新住民的權益，在有需要諮詢的部分，我們會協助轉介，但是發展署成立之後，爾後的手腳回到新住民家庭服務中心，以上。"],["莊委員瑞雄：新署的成立誕生，我們樂觀其成，但我們很怕一個機關的誕生，到最後讓老百姓多走了一些冤枉路，多設一個署其實沒有困難，很容易，但是怎麼樣少讓新住民多跑一趟路，這才是設立組織的真本事，這涉及到整個新機關的成立。","我們的立場其實很簡單，新住民不是一個族群，其實就是用家人的概念去看待，期待新署的成立，業務權責分清楚，讓它變成新住民的靠山，共築一個不只是共融、還要共榮的臺灣，業務部分我相信逐條時你們也要跟各個機關把事權弄清楚，好不好？"],["林署長宏恩：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請牛煦庭委員代理主席。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：下一位我們請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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衛福部跟財政部九部長 中部長請是 兩位部長早我想今天大家所有委員都很關心西天有害健康 但是在國內它的確是一個產業它也是一個消費品"},{"start":23.942,"end":38.78,"text":"加熱鹽的問題,今天大家都提了很多我想問兩位部長,其實我們都知道很多的國人都在使用加熱鹽,對吧?那,國內是沒有合法的加熱鹽那現在,國人在使用的都是什麼鹽?都是走私來的,對吧?"},{"start":43.081,"end":69.267,"text":"是不是基本上是吧現在只要你看到在用加熱煉的人他就是走私來的現在走私依照財政部委託曾居樂教授的研究報告他裡面是說如果按照他的實際推估的話走私的煙品大概是從100萬到400萬用其他推估方式甚至高達1500萬"},{"start":71.94,"end":97.43,"text":"有沒有這麼多的走私的驗品啊財政不知道嗎我們跟委員報告當然這個部分我們在報告裡面寫到你們光抓到113年就抓到230萬包了嗎加熱菸對是加熱菸那當然電子驗更不要講電子驗在煙海防止法完全是禁止的所以加熱菸它不禁止但是要審查所以現在問題是雖然"},{"start":100.27,"end":126.865,"text":"目前還沒有合法但是隨處可見走私猖獗查緝有但查緝的結果是讓很多人還是人手一樣人手一包啊所以兩位部長我們的問題在哪裡你們認為在哪裡認為我們的問題是出在衛福部的審查從一年到兩年到今天沒有進度對吧"},{"start":128.854,"end":131.395,"text":"邱部長,我覺得你已經回答很多了,很多委員都說了,到底問題出在哪裡?依據兩年前的審查的辦法,當時就設立審查的委員跟相關的辦法,那就請業者送上來。行政程序法有規定,我送給你,兩個月之內你要做處分嘛。"},{"start":151.861,"end":177.208,"text":"那我們不處分一直擺著一年兩年這跟行政程序法也不合嘛第三個就是我們到底要管還是不要管啊我們知道他在他存在每個人都在用但是我們不管而且走私一堆抓到很多然後審查很久這就是一個該管不管所以又坐視他這樣然後又去抓他違法這個國家太矛盾了"},{"start":178.65,"end":197.882,"text":"報告委員這個我早上已經講過幾次這些問題我們政府會來解決它政府會來解決已經兩年了不是現在才解決我希望在你的任內今年要有個解決啦這個聽起來很可笑我們要管但是我們管不了但是大家都在用那我也抓不完"},{"start":198.902,"end":217.922,"text":"我們政府應該來解決這些問題它存在 不關我的事我只要求一個沒有人要因為要求你開放就讓你放水我覺得不能放水但是你的速度也太慢了第三最重要的是嚴審之後就是納管"},{"start":218.763,"end":239.877,"text":"真的所謂的違法不合法的沒有經過相關審查通過的加強查緝該抓就抓重罰才有辦法讓合法的業者可以正常的生存不要都是靠走私然後每個人都知道那是走私的每個人都知道是從機場偷偷帶回來的機場也在抓但是"},{"start":240.837,"end":249.966,"text":"又很普遍的生活在我們的旁邊這很奇怪啦這太奇怪了所以我覺得這個問題是衛福部的問題還是財政部的問題衛福部你趕快合法他就趕快收錢啦不然我告訴你光現在走私的數量我們一年稅損達到13億啊"},{"start":261.667,"end":289.54,"text":"一塊錢也收不到啊好嗎 該怎麼做就要怎麼做吧不管你的時間怎麼樣 不能放水不能放水 但是不要再拖了合法就合法 不合法就不合法弄得現在大家卻聲不明沒有人知道發生什麼事然後每個人都在使用這實在太奇怪了好 第二個問題是在我們去年七月的時候說賴總統的政見是百億癌症新藥基金"},{"start":291.479,"end":307.226,"text":"我們今年編了50億的公務預算進入健保基金接下去還要再補50億到100億然後去年的這個時候健保署的石崇良署長說要科冤"},{"start":308.786,"end":331.799,"text":"9捐來挹注相關的所謂的百億基金有沒有這回事沒有這回事那都是演繹而已啦演繹所以到今天為止我想建保署很用心在想各種方式來增加財源所以9捐不是衛福部的立場沒有我們沒有這種立場好那財政部我們有菸捐我們有沒有打算剋剋9捐呢"},{"start":333.045,"end":357.951,"text":"目前并没有这样的规划所以这个真的是不要乱说话啦如果没有就说没有不要变成另外我要问的是卫福部还有一个比较更奇怪的事情就是110年监察院对行政院纠正要求处理所谓的槟榔危害防治槟榔危害防治在卫福部12月已经完成预告草案"},{"start":359.091,"end":371.906,"text":"限制檳榔的銷售管道不可以賣給兒童跟青少年然後限制場域還有建立原料的檢驗機制這個法案草案過來以後目前的進度是怎麼樣部長你們暫緩了是嗎"},{"start":376.533,"end":394.5,"text":"沒有戰法 我們因為這牽涉到因為有人抗議了嘛所以必須要做好妥善的溝通社會溝通是一個我們政府必須要做的事情但是推動這樣的法案也是一個要做的事檳榔文化防治是不是衛福部的重要政策"},{"start":395.544,"end":410.825,"text":"當然是重要政策是 會繼續推嗎一定會繼續推一定會繼續推因為監察院監察委員趙詠卿說如果你們不處理他不排除彈劾所以這件事情我覺得很重要啦如果我們對於煙要管對於酒要管"},{"start":413.048,"end":435.746,"text":"對於檳榔的危害 國人因為檳榔的危害口腔癌還是居高不下我們清洗再進行好不好 部長 這個是你的政策如果是你的政策 我覺得就要勇敢的推下去是的當然要解決業者 他們碰到的困難但是不等於你要把他停下來 否則我是認為監察院已經說明了啊他不談合理就是他不對啊"},{"start":436.598,"end":454.356,"text":"好最後一個小問題就是這也不是小問題很大的問題我在這邊已經問了部長兩位部長多次了房地合一稅我們當時是要做居住正義用的但是97%都拿來做了長照這很奇怪啊"},{"start":455.65,"end":477.54,"text":"莊部長依規定 沒有規定啦後來你是被逼著要求說至少要給居住正義百分之十但是到現在也只撥了八點九啊很少啊所以我要問的是邱部長你的長照現在是依靠所謂的移政稅 延捐延稅"},{"start":479.543,"end":503.8,"text":"還有剛剛講的房地合一稅長照的金額一年已經高達900多億了房地合一稅是機會稅如果現在房地交易不多的話它可能會有來源的問題第二個 菸捐菸稅我們不希望它太多啊一正稅也是靠運氣靠機會所以台灣民眾黨已經提出了長照保險法"},{"start":504.8,"end":521.147,"text":"長照保險法就類似健保我們希望每個人現在出一點照顧未來的自己長照保險對於行政院來說對於衛福部來說你們完全靠這些不確定的稅額其實長照"},{"start":522.888,"end":550.744,"text":"的資金其實長期來說我們擔心它的不穩定性邱部長你對長照保險有沒有想法我問過你你去過日本考察也在議事公會這邊舉辦過相關的座談會所以部長我想問問你對長照保險接下來這個財源不是那麼穩定的情況下衛福部打算怎麼在長照以後3.0以後要不要退長照保險法"},{"start":551.838,"end":562.841,"text":"報告委員我分兩點報告第一個就是說113年底長照基金還有2039億元現在還夠以後可能就不一定夠我們今年的1月到5月收入就341億元所以現在目前來講還是可以支應"},{"start":571.423,"end":591.576,"text":"那至於說任何一個財務的規劃我覺得我們是必須要去考慮到利弊得失現在有荷蘭有德國有日本可以讓你抄啊我覺得這些政策至少部長要有態度啦方向我想財務的規劃政府應該負責任的讓它穩定"},{"start":598.96,"end":613.232,"text":"所以要人民自己出一點大家一起出一點政府出一點才有辦法真正做到長治久安因為現在每年靠這些稅900多億 900多億是砸在水裡面"},{"start":614.033,"end":627.519,"text":"就不見了就不見了而且長照3.0對於中重症要加強照顧現在的長照2.0對於中重症沒有辦法做好完整的照護待會3.0這個部分都會加強是所以我要說的是部長應該對於長照是不是將來要推長照保險要有一些想法"},{"start":635.506,"end":661.274,"text":"日本、荷蘭跟德國其實都有很完善的長照保險長照保險在國民黨的智庫做的民調77.3%的民眾也都支持我相信這個是在野黨大力推展的你將來也會面對這個政策要不要來處理我們推了主權基金現在行政院也願意推我們現在推長照保險我相信將來"},{"start":662.794,"end":689.382,"text":"不管是行政院或者是衛福部也會面對在野黨提出來行政院必須要的態度跟目標跟方向我希望部長你至少給我一個你們可以去研議你們對於這個的態度你不一定要有具體的內容但是你要告訴我說接下來去長照三點你的內容跟將來長照保險長期的規劃是一個長治九萬一二十年的計畫"},{"start":691.748,"end":713.124,"text":"長照3.0的不管是它的內容跟財務我們都有做妥善的評估那至於說長照到底是稅收或者是由社會保險其實國際間大部分的國家還是稅收少部分採社會保險那日本開辦長照保險其實還是公務預算要撥半數以上"},{"start":713.865,"end":719.987,"text":"所以政府要出啊就跟健保一樣當學者在談論一個事情的時候好像很簡單說這樣看起來比較好可是當我們在想的時候就要看到人民的反應譬如說你們要年輕人所以要討論我也沒有意見 我只是說部長我們要不要有態度這個態度可能是希望你能給我一個書面的回答我們會書面回答"},{"start":741.552,"end":748.459,"text":"對高人化的社會 我們的照顧絕對是更多我們一起來努力好 那我等你的出面回覆好 下一位請 王思堅委員資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":930,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時42分）謝謝主席。我想請兩位部長，衛福部跟財政部。"],["主席：請邱部長、莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位部長早。我想今天大家、所有委員都很關心吸菸有害健康，但是在國內，它的確是一個產業也是一個消費品，加熱菸的問題今天大家都提了很多，我想問兩位部長，其實我們都知道，很多國人都在使用加熱菸，對吧？國內是沒有合法的加熱菸，那現在國人在使用的都是什麼菸？都是走私來的，對吧？是不是？基本上是吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：現在只要你看到在用的加熱菸就是走私來的，現在走私，依照財政部委託曾巨威教授做的研究報告，這裡面提及如果按照他的實際推估，走私的菸品大概是從100萬到400萬包，用其他推估方式甚至高達1,500萬包，有沒有這麼多走私的菸品，財政部知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當然這個部分我們在報告裡面寫到……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們光113年就抓到230萬包了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，加熱菸。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，加熱菸。當然電子煙更不用講，電子煙在菸害防制法完全是禁止的，所以對於加熱菸，他不禁止，但是要審查，所以現在的問題是，雖然目前還沒有合法，但是隨處可見，走私猖獗，雖然有查緝，但查緝的結果是很多人還是人手一包，所以兩位部長，我們的問題在哪裡？你們認為在哪裡？認為我們的問題是出在衛福部的審查，從一年到兩年到今天沒有進度，對吧？邱部長……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：今天你已經回答很多了，很多委員都說了，到底問題出在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：依據兩年前的審查辦法，當時就設立審查的委員跟相關的辦法，那就請業者送上來，這樣來來回回也送了……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是說，行政程序法有規定，我送給你，兩個月之內你要做處分，那我們不處分，一直擺著，一年、兩年，這跟行政程序法也不合嘛！還有就是我們到底要管還是不要管？我們知道它存在，每個人都在用，但是我們不管，而且走私一堆，抓到很多，然後審查很久，這就是一個該管不管，坐視它這樣，然後又去抓它違法，這個國家太矛盾了！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，早上我已經講過幾次，這些問題我們政府會來解決。"],["黃委員珊珊：政府會來解決？已經兩年了，不是現在才解決，我希望在你的任內，今年要有個解決啦！這個聽起來很可笑，我們要管，但是我們管不了，大家都在用，我們也抓不完。"],["邱部長泰源：我們政府一定會來解決這些問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們現在的問題就在這裡，它存在，但不關我的事。我只要求一個，沒有人因為要求你開放就讓你放水，我覺得不能放水。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有嚴格的審查。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你的速度也太慢了。","再來，最重要的是嚴審之後就是納管，真的所謂的違法、不合法的、沒有經過相關審查通過的要加強查緝。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：該抓就抓、重罰，這樣才有辦法讓合法的業者可以正常的生存，不要都是靠走私，然後每個人都知道那是走私的，每個人都知道是從機場偷偷帶回來的，機場也在抓，但是又很普遍的生活在我們的旁邊，這很奇怪，這太奇怪了！好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：瞭解、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個問題是衛福部的問題還是財政部的問題？衛福部，你趕快讓它合法，他就可以趕快收錢了，不然我告訴你，光是現在走私的數量，我們一年稅損達到13億，一塊錢也收不到！好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["黃委員珊珊：該怎麼做就要怎麼做，不管你的時間怎麼樣，不能放水！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會負責任的來解決問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能放水，但是不要再拖了。"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：合法就合法，不合法就不合法，弄得現在妾身不明，沒有人知道發生什麼事，然後每個人都在使用，這實在太奇怪了。","第二個問題，去年7月的時候，針對賴總統政見的百億癌症新藥基金，我們今年編了50億的公務預算進入健保基金。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來還要再補50億到100億，然後去年的這個時候，健保署石崇良署長說要課酒捐來挹注相關所謂的百億基金，有沒有這回事？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有這回事。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有這回事？"],["邱部長泰源：那都是研議而已啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：研議？所以到今天為止……"],["邱部長泰源：我想健保署很用心在想各種方式來增加財源。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以酒捐不是衛福部的立場？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，我們沒有這種立場。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。財政部，我們有菸捐，我們有沒有打算課酒捐呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前並沒有這樣的規劃。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有？所以真的不要亂說話，如果沒有就說沒有。","另外我要問的是，衛福部還有一個更奇怪的事情就是，110年監察院對行政院糾正，要求處理所謂的檳榔危害防制，關於檳榔危害防制，衛福部在12月已經完成預告草案，限制檳榔的銷售管道，不可以賣給兒童跟青少年，然後限制場域，還有建立原料的檢驗機制，這個法案、草案過來以後，目前的進度如何？部長，你們暫緩了是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有暫緩，因為這牽涉到……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為有人抗議了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：所以必須做好妥善的溝通，我想社會溝通是我們政府必須做的事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我同意。"],["邱部長泰源：但是推動這個法案也是一件要做的事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：檳榔危害防制是不是衛福部的重要政策？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是重要政策。"],["黃委員珊珊：會繼續推嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：一定會繼續推。"],["黃委員珊珊：一定會繼續推。因為監察院監察委員趙永清說，如果你們不處理，他不排除彈劾，所以這件事情我覺得很重要，如果我們對於菸要管，對於酒要管，對於檳榔的危害，國人因為檳榔的危害，口腔癌還是居高不下。"],["邱部長泰源：我們積極在進行。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，如果這是你的政策，我覺得就要勇敢的推下去。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：當然要解決業者他們碰到的困難。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是不等於你要把它停下來，否則我是認為監察院已經說明了啊！他不彈劾你，就是他不對啊。","最後一個小問題，這也不是小問題，這是很大的問題，我在這邊已經問兩位部長很多次了，房地合一稅，我們當時是要做居住正義用的，但是97%都拿來做了長照，這很奇怪啊！莊部長，依規定……沒有規定啦，後來你是被逼著要求說至少要給居住正義10%，但是到現在只撥了8.9%，這很少啊！所以我要問的是，邱部長，你的長照現在是依靠所謂的遺贈稅、菸捐、菸稅，還有剛剛講的房地合一稅，長照的金額一年已經高達九百多億了，而房地合一稅是機會稅，如果現在房地交易不多的話，可能會有財源的問題。第二個，菸捐、菸稅，我們不希望太多，遺贈稅也是靠運氣、靠機會，所以台灣民眾黨已經提出了長照保險法，長照保險法就類似健保，我們希望每個人現在出一點，照顧未來的自己。長照保險對於行政院來說、對於衛福部來說，你們完全靠這些不確定的稅額，對長照資金的長期來說，會讓我們擔心它的不穩定性。","邱部長，你對於長照保險有沒有想法？我問過你，你去過日本考察，也在醫師公會舉辦過相關的座談會，所以部長，我想問問，你對長照保險財源不是那麼穩定的情況下，衛福部打算在長照3.0以後，要不要推長照保險法？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我分兩點報告：第一個，113年底長照基金還有2,039億元，114年……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在還夠啦，以後可能就不一定夠。"],["邱部長泰源：我們今年1月到5月的收入就有341億元，所以現在目前來講，還是可以支應。至於任何一個財務的規劃，我覺得必須要考慮利弊得失，長照保險……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在有荷蘭、德國、日本可以讓你抄啊，對於這些政策，部長，我覺得至少要有態度啦，我們現在也許方向……"],["邱部長泰源：我想財務的規劃，政府應該負責任讓它穩定，各種可能性……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要讓人民自己出一點、大家一起出一點、政府出一點，才有辦法真正做到長治久安。因為現在每年靠這些稅，九百多億是砸在水裡面，就不見了，而且長照3.0對於中重症要加強照顧，現在的長照2.0對中重症沒有辦法做好完整的照護，你同意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，長照3.0這個部分都會加強。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我要說的是，部長應該對於將來是不是要推長照保險要有一些想法。日本、荷蘭跟德國其實都有很完善的長照保險，國民黨的智庫做的民調顯示，77.3%的民眾也都支持長照保險，我相信這是在野黨大力推展的，你將來也會面對這個政策要不要處理，我們推了主權基金，現在行政院也願意推；我們現在推長照保險，我相信將來，不管是行政院或是衛福部，在面對在野黨提出來後，行政院也必須要有態度、目標跟方向。","部長，你們可以去研議你們對於這個的態度，你不一定要有具體的內容，但是你要告訴我說，接下來長照3.0的內容跟將來長照保險長期的規劃，是一個長治久安，一、二十年的計畫。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，長照3.0不管是它的內容跟財務，我們都有做妥善的評估，那至於長照到底是稅收，或是社會保險，其實國際間大部分的國家還是稅收，少部分採社會保險。日本開辦長照保險其實還是公務預算要撥半數以上。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以政府要出，就跟健保一樣。"],["邱部長泰源：我們當學者在談論一個事情的時候，好像很簡單，說這樣看起來比較好，可是當我們在想的時候，就要看到人民的反應，譬如說，你們要年輕人去繳稅，他會說：我為什麼要……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要討論，沒有意見，我也沒有定見，我只是說部長，我們要不要有態度？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：我們的態度是很負責。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個態度我希望你一個月內給我一個書面回答。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會書面回答，但是面臨高齡化的社會，我們絕對是更多的照顧，我們一起來努力。謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：那我等你的書面回復。"],["主席：好。下一位請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},{"id":"162732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162732","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73f154fc389aec7d51eab13042bab466e31d1dd57576f62286f89052436b86d4f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:31:44 - 11:42:37","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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部長"},{"start":10.267,"end":38.762,"text":"我想在這個2019年2月啊當時因為省紀部的審核報告所以監察院進一步的去查核後續的監察院報告指出財政部長期消極以韓文要求地方政府全然未派源實地查核以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所定的實地查核機制導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用茶器的經費"},{"start":40.123,"end":68.942,"text":"因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部但是我們看到上週有媒體報導有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私煙集團詐領私煙的查緝獎金高達數億國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明但是針對這個案件我想了解說財政部內部是否已經有去了解到底被詐領的金額有多少"},{"start":70.203,"end":83.513,"text":"那國庫署的新聞稿中對這些被詐領的金額其實他沒有做任何的說明就金額的現在這個追討的結果如何並沒有做一個說明所以後續我們對於追討會採取哪些動作請部長來說明謝謝委員對於這樣的一個情況我們認為應該要嚴處"},{"start":95.051,"end":109.439,"text":"那另外對於這一個個案目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中那我們到第一個動作我們就是發函給海巡署看能不能提供我們相關資料這個個案到底這個人領走了多少"},{"start":110.214,"end":128.613,"text":"金額的獎金那麼我們後續才能夠做相關的一個所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的一個結果對 如果司法偵查出來以後會更明確這個人所涉及的一個個案那目前因為我們也大概透過各種方式來了解同時也發函給海巡署這樣子"},{"start":129.694,"end":146.392,"text":"但因為司法偵辦的結果通常耗日廢時是不是可以跟我們直接跟海巡署這邊跟海委會來做一個行政的一個調查到底他們這個詐領了多少錢然後我們提早跟他來追討"},{"start":146.972,"end":164.967,"text":"是的我們這個部分我們會再跟海委會跟海巡署來請他們再提供那追討的未來的結果如何也請財政部能夠再提供相關的一個追討的資料給我們財委會好的我們會把後面的追查結果提報告給委員會謝謝委員"},{"start":167.509,"end":189.868,"text":"另外我們關於媒體報導中他也提到說私菸茶器所處理的上億元的罰款因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳但是我們的獎金是一樣的發放那罰款扣不到但是獎金還是一樣給"},{"start":191.269,"end":199.939,"text":"造成聽起來讓人們的感覺就是說這個國庫損失不少像這樣子的一個情況未來要如何補救"},{"start":200.566,"end":204.768,"text":"是謝謝委員對於有關發給茶器這個獎金的部分是為了鼓勵努力跟積極茶器的人員給予獎勵那至於他所課真的罰還沒有能夠收到那涉及到這個這個這所謂的處分人他就對變那個人本身的財力那這個部分呢我想我們會在下一步的部分會在制度面上來做一個設計"},{"start":226.118,"end":244.11,"text":"在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的一個情況尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶他根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣一個情況我們在制度面要設計然後讓他做得更精進更有效謝謝委員長謝謝部長 部長你請回接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官劉主任檢察官請"},{"start":258.847,"end":277.726,"text":"對於我剛才提到的就是私菸集團的集團利用人頭當負責人導致我們罰款扣不到的情況當然剛才財務部說是會研擬但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關那法務部對這種罰款扣不到的情況是否也會有相對應的一個措施"},{"start":278.758,"end":287.612,"text":"法管扣不到的時候如果說之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話我們也會配合來辦理"},{"start":289.295,"end":309.589,"text":"因為這人頭啊 他就沒有錢啊我相信說 法務部是不是也應該研理說如何遏止這些CN集團利用人頭來擔任負責人 結果規避查緝那法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的一個不法行為繼續的發生"},{"start":311.532,"end":331.463,"text":"不光是食鹽集團其實在其他相類型的案件犯罪中都會有這種以人頭作為公司或者是法人負責人的情況不管是逃避追緝或者是逃避刑事責任行政法都有的情況那我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關來精進的去辦理這樣的類似的檢查器"},{"start":331.963,"end":348.734,"text":"OK 好 謝謝接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見我想選罷法第81條第三項規定同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人提議人及連署人的人數應該分別計算"},{"start":349.895,"end":364.368,"text":"所以如果說現在這個霸團就是他送進來的連署書第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人是有重複連署的一個情況我想請教法國普對於這種霸團"},{"start":365.609,"end":389.495,"text":"他明知故犯第一階段的提人你不能再成為第二階段的連署人結果你積極的去鼓吹告訴說請第一階段的提人你二階也來連署然後為了湊數灌水把這些一階段提人的連署書也把它一起湊起來重複連署達到我們二階法定的一個罷免門檻"},{"start":391.155,"end":403.324,"text":"請問這樣的行為是不是用適用詐素來獲取不法利益讓被罷免的人可以達到被罷免的一個門檻這是不是一個施行詐素的詐欺行為啊區片中選會這樣是不是詐欺行為啊"},{"start":409.031,"end":426.836,"text":"報告委員有關於刑法的詐欺罪它規定在339條那它是屬於財產犯罪的類型那要件的話是要求說個人要被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖那也必須要適用詐數就誠如剛才委員所說的詐數的部分"},{"start":427.276,"end":455.027,"text":"那最後的話他要求必須要有財產上的損害或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益那在符合這些構成要件的前提下才會去探討說是否這個行為是該當那回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法81條第三項的部分那固然這邊有規定一個強制規定禁止說這個提名人提議人作為一個不得為第二屆的連署人不得為連署人的部分"},{"start":456.087,"end":478.77,"text":"那明明是故犯啊 是知道有沒有犯下什麼罪那如果是從財產犯罪來講的話還是必須要回到財產犯罪裡面的本質就是要有財產上的損害你意思說這個是有私刑詐欺的太陽存在但是是不是構成詐欺罪因為它不屬於財產犯罪所以你認為可能這個還要再做一個進一步的分析嘛是不是你的意思是這樣"},{"start":480.361,"end":508.633,"text":"詐數是否存在還是必須要由個案去判斷不管是積極的使用詐數或者是消極不為而使人誤認都有可能構成或不構成的話還是要個案去看好那我接著再問你如果說他這樣子的一個連署行為就是法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人如果他還去連署請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還無效違反法律的禁止規定應該講的"},{"start":511.005,"end":535.942,"text":"正如同說這個是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講其實像類似的比如說像股東會也有一些召開的一些強行禁止規定那有可能是造成股東會自始不成立無效或者是得撤銷那相同的在選罷法81條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下到底這樣的法律效果是如何的話可能還是要由主管機關來去做一個解釋這邊我們這邊就"},{"start":537.864,"end":553.46,"text":"相對的就是可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上那跟委員另外報告的是有關於這個刑法的214條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分那當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件"},{"start":553.96,"end":576.966,"text":"但是使公務員登載不實的部分的話我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務的話就比較不會該當於本罪所以在探討81條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務來去判斷是不是有公務員使公務員登載不實的一個罪責可能性"},{"start":577.426,"end":602.941,"text":"好 OK這當然是我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷說到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫去偽造文書或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關的問題所以這個重複聯署牽涉到的刑法的問題就是他可能是偽造文書他可能違反個人資料保護法因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份的聯署書"},{"start":605.442,"end":629.291,"text":"或者明知這個是第一階段我已經簽過二階不能再去連署他還去連署所以這個疑問是非常大的我想法務部也要去正視這個問題檢調要去介入我想這個部分我會去提告也希望檢調要積極地去調查到底有沒有偽造歸宿因為分數非常的多高達總分數的五分之一之多這麼多"},{"start":631.492,"end":638.858,"text":"這個一定要積極的去調查去申辦有沒有偽造文書有沒有違反個人資料保護法以上 謝謝好 謝謝林世民委員諮詢下一位請黃珊珊委員諮詢請我們現在可以開始發便當"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長好。部長，2019年2月當時因為審計部的審核報告，所以監察院進一步的去查核，後續監察院的報告指出，財政部長期消極以函文要求地方政府，全然未派員實地查核，以落實執行菸捐經費運用要點所訂的實地查核機制，導致地方政府持續多年未依專款專用的原則來辦理運用查緝的經費，因此後來監察院也糾正了財政部。但是我們看到上週有媒體報導，有海巡人員涉嫌勾結私菸集團詐領私菸的查緝獎金高達數億，國庫署在6月10號雖然有發出新聞稿做出相關的說明，但是針對這個案件，我想了解財政部內部是否已經有去了解，到底被詐領的金額有多少？國庫署的新聞稿中，對於被詐領的金額其實沒有做任何的說明，就現在追討的結果如何，也沒有做說明，後續我們會採取哪些動作來追討，請部長說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。對於這樣的情況，我們認為應該要嚴處。另外，對於這一個個案，目前因為檢調司法在偵查當中，當然我們第一個動作就是發函給海巡署，看能不能提供我們相關資料，這個個案到底這個人領走了多少金額的獎金，我們後續才能夠做相關的追討的動作……"],["林委員思銘：所以財政部還是要等到司法偵辦的結果？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，如果司法偵查出來以後，會更明確這個人所涉及的個案，目前我們當然也透過各種方式來了解，同時也發函給海巡署。"],["林委員思銘：部長，但因司法偵辦的結果通常耗日費時，是不是可以直接跟海巡署這邊，跟海委會來做一個行政的調查，到底他們詐領了多少錢，然後我們提早跟他來追討？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，這個部分我們會再跟海委會，跟海巡署來請他們再提供……"],["林委員思銘：好。那未來追討的結果如何，也請財政部能夠再提供相關的追討的資料給我們財委會，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們會把後面追查的結果，提報告給委員會。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：另外，媒體報導當中也提到，私菸查緝所處以的上億元罰款，因為私菸集團都是利用人頭來當負責人，因此導致罰款最後都扣不到成為呆帳，但是我們的獎金一樣的發放。罰款扣不到，但是獎金還是一樣給，聽起來我們的感覺就是國庫損失不少，像這樣的情況，未來要如何補救？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。發給查緝獎金是為了鼓勵努力跟積極查緝的人員給予獎勵，至於所課徵的罰鍰沒有能夠收到，涉及到所謂的處分人……"],["林委員思銘：變呆帳啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：那個人本身的財力，這個部分我想我們下一步會在制度面上來做個設計，在制度面上設計來避免有這樣的情況，尤其是找所謂的人頭或低收入戶，找根本就沒有財力的人來當人頭而造成這樣的情況，我們的制度面要設計，然後讓他做得更精進、更有效。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員思銘：部長請回。接下來請法務部的劉主任檢察官。"],["主席：劉主任檢察官，請。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：劉主任，對於我剛才提到的，私菸集團利用人頭當負責人，導致我們罰款扣不到的情況，當然剛才財政部說會研擬對策，但是我覺得這跟法務部的業務也有關，法務部對於這種罰款扣不到的情況，是否也會有相對應的措施？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：罰款扣不到的時候，如果之後主管機關有移送到我們行政執行署來做強制執行的話，我們也會配合來辦理。"],["林委員思銘：因為這些人頭就是沒有錢，我現在的意思是，法務部是不是也應該研擬，如何遏止這些私菸集團利用人頭擔任負責人以規避查緝，法務部是不是應該有更積極精進的作為去遏止這樣的不法行為繼續發生？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：不光是私菸集團，其實在其他相類的犯罪案件中都會……"],["林委員思銘：都會有嘛。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：都會有這種以人頭作為公司或是法人負責人的情況，不管是逃避追緝，或者是逃避刑事責任、行政罰，都有這樣的情況，我們這邊也會要求各檢察機關精進的去辦理類似的案件查緝。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK，謝謝。接下來我想請問一下法務部的意見，選罷法第八十一條第三項規定，同一罷免案的提議人不得為連署人，提議人及連署人的人數應分別計算。如果現在罷團送進來的連署書，第一階段的提議人跟第二階段的連署人有重複連署的情況，我想請教法務部，對於這種罷團明知故犯，第一階段的提議人不能再成為第二階段的連署人，結果罷團卻積極的去鼓吹，請第一階段的提議人二階也來連署，然後為了湊數灌水，把這些一階段提議人的連署書一起湊起來重複連署，以達到二階的法定罷免門檻，請問這樣的行為是否適用施用詐術獲取不法利益，讓被罷免人可以達到被罷免的門檻，這是不是一個施行詐術的詐欺行為？欺騙中選會，這樣是不是詐欺行為？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：報告委員，刑法的詐欺罪規定在第三百三十九條，它是屬於財產犯罪的類型，構成要件是要求被告行為人要有意圖為自己不法或第三人不法之所有意圖；也必須要施用詐術，就誠如剛才委員所說的詐術的部分；最後是要求必須要有財產上的損害，或者是獲得類似於財產上的不法利益。在符合這些構成要件的前提下，才會去探討是否這個行為是該當。"],["林委員思銘：是，好。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：回到剛才委員所提到的選罷法第八十一條第三項，固然此項有一個強制規定，禁止提議人作為連署……"],["林委員思銘：不得為第二階的連署人。"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：不得為連署人的規定，那是……"],["林委員思銘：他明知故犯啊！"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：是。"],["林委員思銘：這樣有沒有犯下什麼罪？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：如果從財產犯罪來講的話，還是必須要回到財產犯罪的本質，就是要有財產上的損害。"],["林委員思銘：OK，我知道。主任，你的意思是說，這個是有施行詐術的態樣存在，但是不是構成詐欺罪，因為他不屬於財產犯罪，所以你認為可能這個還要再做進一步的分析，是不是？你的意思是這樣？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：詐術是否存在必須要就個案去判斷，不管是積極地施用詐術，或者是消極不為而使人誤認，都有可能構成或不構成，還是要個案去看。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好。我接著再問你，如果說他這樣子的連署行為，法律已經明確規定你不得為二階的連署人，如果他還去連署，請問這樣的二階的連署書是有效還是無效？違反法律的禁止規定啊！"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：正如同說這是一個違反法律的禁止規定來講，其實相類似的，比如說股東會也有一些召開的強行禁止規定，有可能是造成股東會自始不成立、無效或者是得撤銷；那相同的，在選罷法第八十一條第三項有一個強行禁止規定的前提之下，到底這樣的法律效果是如何？可能還是要由主管機關去做一個解釋，我們這邊相對的可能還是集中在刑事案件的偵辦上。","跟委員另外報告的是，刑法第二百十四條有關於使公務員登載不實的部分，當然也有可能會涉及到這一塊的犯罪構成要件，但是使公務員登載不實的部分，我們現在司法實務是要求公務員如果有實質審查義務就比較不會該當於本罪，所以在探討第八十一條第三項違反提議人跟連署人同一的情況下，這部分就要回到去看主管機關是不是有實質審查的義務，以此去判斷是不是有使公務員登載不實的罪責的可能性。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK。當然我是認為他有實質審查的義務才能判斷到底這個是不是有重複去抄寫、去偽造文書，或者是利用人家的個資去違反個人資料保護法的相關問題，所以這個重複連署牽涉到的刑法問題，就是他可能是偽造文書、可能違反個人資料保護法，因為一個正常的人不可能去同時簽兩份連署書，或者明知第一階段自己已經簽過，二階不能再去連署，而他還去連署，所以這個疑問是非常大的，我想法務部也要去正視這個問題，檢調要介入，我想這個部分我會去提告，也希望檢調要積極去調查到底有沒有偽造文書，因為份數非常多，高達總份數的五分之一之多，有這麼多，這個一定要積極去調查、偵辦有沒有偽造文書、有沒有違反個人資料保護法。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員質詢。下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。我們現在可以開始發便當，大家有需要可以享用。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},{"id":"162731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73f2697ca94a758f9189c8da44615ed5db1d1dd57576f62286939d2a991c27a3a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:39:40 - 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謝謝委員如同您上面顯示的在以色列有第四級紅色地區跟第三級橙色的地區"},{"start":106.207,"end":131.324,"text":"那紅色就是要禁書離境然後橙色是避免前往那剛剛委員講說為什麼現在還有274名啦齁在這個以色列因為我講那個情形就有些人已經是定居在那裡甚至結婚生子有些人是長年在那邊工作那有一些人是留學有些人是商務他們其實都很瞭解以色列的情況我們會都有建黨也都有聯繫可是我們如果說從外面要求他馬上就撤離"},{"start":134.126,"end":159.006,"text":"這個是說實在他們對現況比我們了解他們都知道怎麼去避難那以色列很長的生活在這樣的威脅之下我們也尊重我們也支持所以當然我們在講說我們要馬上怎麼樣在搶先的在戰爭發生之前就去宣布可能啦在他認為是說好像我們把它視為這個不能夠居住的地方所以布載的意思是說他們沒有想要離開的意思就對了很多人都"},{"start":159.446,"end":182.38,"text":"要繼續留在內 但是如果這個戰爭繼續衝突升高 也可能會離開那我們都做好應變 也都跟他們聯繫中幾乎每一個人我們都有通訊我們在駐以色列的大使館 我們的代表處真的做到大家都很稱讚就是每一個人都當作自己在家人一樣在看待所以當我們在處理這種外交關係上 我會 為什麼會有一些反應啊"},{"start":183.66,"end":203.597,"text":"我們在指導的時候必須要了解在現地第一場比如剛剛有提到說我們怎麼伊朗現在是這個冒險這個中心在那邊但他在保護我們的國人九個已經撤了三個另外三個已經要撤然後他也準備要撤可是他可能要留到最後面但是如果危險我們也是會跟經濟部協調他也要趕快走"},{"start":206.539,"end":235.2,"text":"那這個也都有方案可是那個時機的掌握我們必須尊重第一線因為它才有那個情報所以我們很感謝各界的指導可是在很多的判斷上必須要有正確的情報好 那我希望外交部就是說也可以有辦法確認說他們都是在那邊非常的平安還有他們如果是怎麼樣能跟台灣有順暢的溝通管道呢還是目前外交部有沒有透過某些管道然後你們可以了解兩國現在目前的情況"},{"start":236.061,"end":255.386,"text":"哪兩國 你說台灣跟以色列還是跟伊朗都是因為以色列我們很密切而且我們的情報交換跟各駐以色列大使之間橫向的非常平凡因為這個是面對到每一個國家要不要撤僑或者是要不要在那邊怎麼去應變那至於伊朗因為我們沒有撤代表處只有冒險"},{"start":258.027,"end":277.797,"text":"那我們是用這個杜派去轄管所以這個時候我們當然需要趕快撤離這九個人已經撤了三個三個正在撤離中還有三個我們也建議啦其實安全第一雖然當事人可能有這個責任感想要去幫助所有人都撤離再撤但我覺得"},{"start":279.017,"end":299.169,"text":"這個我們已經都通知了也都安排了撤離的路徑那請大家趕快撤離我現在還是說請外交部還是要密切的關注啦這個兩國最新的局勢還有提供國人必要的協助因為不要跟以前一樣其實以前常常有聽到說我國政府無法保護旅外的台灣人的時候"},{"start":300.47,"end":304.496,"text":"國人常常都會求助一些中共我希望不要有這種事情再發生接下來我想請教部長一下有關共諜的問題就是部長你知道吳釗燮擔任外交部長的任內我們失去了幾個邦交國嗎"},{"start":315.077,"end":319.078,"text":"總有八個那請教部長一下你擔任部長後有沒有重新清查還是有沒有重新了解過去這些和人節長時間擔任前部長的機要秘書的期間究竟主要的工作內容所涉及的外交重要的文件有哪些還有是否已經有影響到我們的外交關係還是國家安全的還有外交部隊這一次部內發生了共諜洩密的事情後來有沒有任何積極的防範的作為還有未來"},{"start":343.724,"end":370.716,"text":"重要的邦加國我們的機密要如何管理因為發生一個危機我們要做除了去做應變以外就要做損害控管而且要做復原因為我本身也算是比較國安系統的背景所以這件事情也還沒有結束所以我們必須要啟動行政調查也是在檢調他們去查了一些資料我們都配合可是我們自己行政體系尤其外交很多的機敏性這個事情的衝擊"},{"start":372.478,"end":382.719,"text":"可能是還有在發展中所以我有要求我們外交部成立一個包括除了我們針鋒處之外有一個小組現在就是在做"},{"start":384.683,"end":392.726,"text":"徹底的釐清之後去做損害控管跟這個危機的復原你剛提到就是說因為這涉及到跟我們來往的很多的還有外交的洩密其實是非常重大的部長你也知道對不對現在回歸來講說這件事情的發生我想請問一下部長就是前部長吳釗燮他當時做一個首長的時候他現在又是高居國安會的秘書長這個位置其實他負責的是國家安全的大事"},{"start":413.875,"end":416.738,"text":"但是我們來訪觀這件事情他當初身為購諜的老闆是不是應該要有肩膀承擔這個責任但是部長你也知道到現在無債縣秘書長到現在還沒有接受任何的調查甚至都不願意出席立法院邀請列席的會議接受監督你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":433.434,"end":440.58,"text":"還有是不是部長你是不是可以好好的發揮一下你的影響力啊勵勸一下吳釗燮要有擔當要擔起這個責任向外界說明呢如果他真的一直覺得他覺得很委屈的話那是不是他應該出來面對對外公開的說明而不是讓大家一直誤會他誤會執政黨甚至最主要是又誤會了整個外交部那部長你認為呢"},{"start":459.756,"end":486.198,"text":"我想立法院副監督職者你們的意見我想當事人也都會聽到檢調現在也在 已經起訴了幾位 這四位後續司法單位也會針對這個事情我想我們就配合司法來辦理可是在行政的層次我做一個外交部長我必須做好損害的控管"},{"start":487.058,"end":503.428,"text":"避免這個傷害持續可能會影響後續我們的外交工作所以當事人他怎麼去面對這個國會的監督或社會各界對於政治責任的期待那這個我不是當事人我無法替他回答"},{"start":504.168,"end":516.2,"text":"但是我想您的意見包括立法院希望有機會能夠請他說明我想就是尊重立法院的職權好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":793,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時39分）謝謝主席，有請外交部林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長早。今天每個委員的質詢都是有關以色列和伊朗兩國軍事衝突的升級，讓有火藥庫之稱的中東局勢更加的緊張，對於以色列和伊朗之間，其實我們比較關心的是他的安全狀況啦！上週五6月13號以色列和伊朗兩國發生衝突，導致旅遊的安全風險都提高了，當天外交部當然也就馬上調升這兩國的旅遊警示等級嘛，兩國現在也都已經關閉了空域，這樣的作法導致想離境的外國人士，當然也包括我們臺灣的國人，無法順利搭乘飛機離開。我想要請教部長的是，剛剛部長答復其他委員的時候有提到，兩國的衝突發生到今天，我們對於在以色列和伊朗的國人也都已經持續的在清查，剛才也有說到清查的結果，在伊朗有9位國人，其中3人已經離境了，在以色列有294位國人，但還有高達274位國人滯留在以色列，這表示才離開了20人。以這樣的情況來看，我想了解一下，是他們不願意離開還是離開不了？還有，我們滯留在以色列的外交人員目前有多少人？萬一兩國真的發生了戰爭，請問臺灣目前有沒有撤僑計畫的一些具體方案呢？"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。如同您的資料所顯示的，在以色列有第四級紅色地區跟第三級橙色地區，紅色就是要儘速離境，橙色則是避免前往。剛剛委員提到為什麼現在還有274人在以色列，剛剛我有講過那個情形，就是有些人已經定居在那裡，甚至結婚生子，也有一些人是長年在那邊工作，有些人是留學，有些人是商務，他們其實都很了解以色列的情況，我們都有建檔，也都有聯繫，可是我們如果從外面要求他們馬上撤離，說實在的，他們對現況比我們了解，他們都知道怎麼去避難，以色列恆常生活在這樣的威脅之下，我們也尊重，我們也支持。所以當我們在講說要馬上怎麼樣或搶先在戰爭發生之前就去宣布，可能啦，他們會認為我們好像把它視為不能夠居住的地方。"],["林委員憶君：所以部長的意思是說，他們沒有想要離開的意思就對了？"],["林部長佳龍：很多人都要繼續留在那邊，但是如果雙方的戰爭衝突繼續升高，也可能會離開，我們都做好應變，也都跟他們聯繫中，幾乎啦，每一個人我們都有通訊，我們駐以色列大使館、我們的代表處真的做到大家都很稱讚，把每一個人都當作自己家人一樣在看待，所以當我們在處理這種外交關係上，我為什麼會有一些反應，我們在指導的時候必須要瞭解到現地第一現場的情況，比如剛剛有提到伊朗，現在是貿協中心在那邊，他在保護我們的國人，9個人已經撤了3個人，另外3個也已經要撤，他也準備要撤，可是他可能要留到最後面，但是如果危險，我們也是會跟經濟部協調，他也要趕快走，這個也都有方案，可是那個時機的掌握，我們必須尊重第一線，因為他才有那個情報。我們很感謝各界的指導，可是在很多的判斷上，必須要有正確的情報。"],["林委員憶君：好，那我希望外交部也可以有辦法確認他們在那邊都是非常的平安。還有，他們怎麼樣能跟臺灣有順暢的溝通管道呢？目前外交部有沒有透過某些管道可以去了解兩國現在目前的情況？"],["林部長佳龍：哪兩國？你是說臺灣跟？"],["林委員憶君：對，跟他們。"],["林部長佳龍：跟以色列還是跟伊朗？"],["林委員憶君：都是。"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟以色列很密切，我們的情報交換跟各駐以色列大使之間的橫向聯絡非常的頻繁，因為這個是面對到每一個國家要不要撤僑或者是在那邊怎麼去應變。至於伊朗，因為我們沒有設代表處，只有貿協，我們是用駐杜拜辦事處去轄管，所以這個時候我們當然希望趕快撤離，這9個人已經撤了3個，有3個正在撤離中，還有3個，我們也建議安全第一。"],["林委員憶君：OK。"],["林部長佳龍：雖然當事人可能有責任感，想要去幫助所有人都撤離後再撤，但我們已經都通知了，也都安排了撤離的路徑，請大家趕快撤離伊朗。"],["林委員憶君：我請外交部還是要密切的關注這兩國的最新局勢，還有提供國人必要的協助，我們不希望跟以前一樣，以前常常聽到當我國政府無法保護旅外臺灣人的時候，國人常常會去求助中共，我希望不要有這種事情再發生。","接下來我想請教部長有關共諜的問題，部長，你知道吳釗燮擔任外交部長的任內，我們失去了幾個邦交國嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：8個。"],["林委員憶君：總共8個嘛！那請教部長一下，你當了部長以後有沒有重新清查，還是有沒有重新瞭解過去何仁傑長時間擔任前部長機要秘書期間主要的工作內容、所涉及的外交重要文件有哪些？還有是否已經影響到我們的外交關係，還是國家安全？還有外交部對這次部內發生的共諜洩密事情，後來有沒有任何積極的防範作為？還有未來對於重要的邦交國，我們的機密要如何管理？"],["林部長佳龍：發生了一個危機，我們除了要去做應變以外，還要做損害控管，而且要復原，因為我本身也算是比較有國安系統的背景，所以這件事情也還沒有結束，我們必須啟動行政調查。也就是說，檢調去查一些資料，我們都配合，可是我們自己行政體系，尤其是外交有很多機敏性，這個事情的衝擊可能還在發展中，所以我有要求外交部成立一個……包括除了我們政風處之外，還有一個小組，現在就是在澈底的釐清之後，要去做損害控管跟危機的復原。"],["林委員憶君：那部長……"],["林部長佳龍：您剛才提到……"],["林委員憶君：我想請教一下……"],["林部長佳龍：因為這涉及到很多跟我們來往的利害關係人。"],["林委員憶君：對，外交的洩密其實是非常重大的，部長你也知道對不對？現在回過頭來講這件事情的發生，我想請問一下部長，前部長吳釗燮當初作為一個首長的時候，他現在又高居國安會的秘書長這個位置，他所負責的其實是國家安全的大事。","我們反觀這件事情，他當初身為共諜的老闆是不是應該要有肩膀承擔這個責任？但部長你也知道，吳釗燮秘書長到現在都還沒有接受任何調查，甚至都不願意出席立法院邀請列席的會議接受監督，你覺得這樣合理嗎？還有部長是不是可以好好地發揮一下你的影響力，力勸一下吳釗燮要有擔當，要擔起這個責任向外界說明呢？如果他真的一直覺得他很委屈的話，他是不是應該出來面對，對外公開說明，而不是讓大家一直誤會他、誤會執政黨，甚至又誤會了整個外交部，部長認為呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我想，立法院負監督之責，你們的意見我想當事人都會聽到，檢調現在也已經起訴了這4位，後續司法單位也會針對這個事情，我想我們就配合司法辦理。可是在行政的層次，我作為一個外交部部長，我必須做好損害的控管，避免這個傷害持續，可能會影響我們後續的外交工作。","至於當事人要怎麼去面對國會的監督，或是社會各界對於政治責任的期待，因為我不是當事人，我無法替他回答，但是我想您的意見，包括立法院也希望有機會能夠……"],["林委員憶君：請他來說明一下。"],["林部長佳龍：要請他說明，我想這就尊重立法院的職權。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員的質詢。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳冠廷委員提書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，請以書面於兩週內答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162730","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a7308e864d1d69f9130c914d80f272b5bb41d1dd57576f622861f2764423691c52a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:39:03 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人事長我想請問一下就是我們在整個的新住民發展署這個成立的過程裡面之前一直聽到說有關於滿額的問題就是我們的中央政府三級機關有70個的一個上限所以也一直都有一些協調那這個負責協調的政務委員主要是誰 是哪一位"},{"start":51.744,"end":76.021,"text":"是組織面還是顏額面就是在顏額面顏額面是沒有現在上次三級機關我們的上限是70調整為71那我想請問一下之前的政務委員史哲有沒有去協調這方面的就是我們有關於顏額顏額的這個已經滿額的問題有沒有"},{"start":78.769,"end":104.13,"text":"他是主三級機關的上線政委有去行政院內部去協調嗎史哲負責協調嘛 對不對所以我真的覺得我們一直等來等去等這個新住民發展署其實很多的新住民朋友已經等得非常不耐煩了可是等來等去呢那你可以看到我們的政務委員史哲去做了高鐵的董事長"},{"start":105.391,"end":118.096,"text":"我們希望說現在能夠加快腳步因為事實上在去年底的時候我們已經把這個原額數提高了所以我想請問一下次長我們的新住民發展署"},{"start":123.758,"end":138.585,"text":"在我們的中央政府中央行政機關組織期準法已經修正通過之後應該可以加快腳步那請問一下到底什麼時候能夠實施那我也想請問因為你們114年度有沒有編列預算"},{"start":142.097,"end":157.572,"text":"跟委員報告我們有先行估算如果說今年成立的話我們會用走追加解我們明年的都已經在籌編概算中所以呢也就是說是可以在115年度來編列預算的"},{"start":158.032,"end":181.352,"text":"我們正在籌編好 正在籌編所以我為什麼要去問預算因為你們籌編才代表會有可能落實因為如果你根本沒有編列預算的話說也是白說而已我想請問一下我們這個發展署我們的原額會有多少我們主要的組織架構是什麼"},{"start":182.365,"end":204.841,"text":"我想這邊跟委員報告我們未來的組織架構 業務執掌 業務緣額還有例如辦公處所跟預算我們都是follow整個新住民基本法的內容去做處理我們目前初步規劃是4個組12個然後正式緣額100人這100人裡面其實大概會有將近50個是由移民署來做移撥另外的話是請證緣額"},{"start":206.951,"end":224.336,"text":"主要是100多位,會不會由移民署移撥到新住民發展署?目前移民署的一些業務本來就是新住民的業務,那這些人就會隨從業務移撥到新住民發展署"},{"start":225.212,"end":241.972,"text":"那請問一下你剛才講的預算的編列是針對新住民發展署的預算編列而不是籌備處的編列吧當然是以署的方式來做編列那你們現在你們的概算大概這個金額會是多少"},{"start":242.672,"end":259.629,"text":"根文報告以今年來講的話如果今年可以成立之後我們預估接下來的下一個半年的部分大概是我們約需大概要一億八千萬那其中也包括新增人事費那未來明年的一一五年的籌編概算我們現在目前年度預算規模大概抓七億"},{"start":260.57,"end":287.767,"text":"就是以115年度是7億 是不是對 是的 所以按照這個你們的預算編列的方式呢就今年下半年度可以成立就是成立籌備處 是不是然後正式的掛牌 按照你們現在的這樣子估算正式的掛牌運作大概是什麼時間這個我目前還無法估算如果今年只要有成立 那應該就是會有走掛牌大概是這樣子"},{"start":288.191,"end":312.538,"text":"所以你就籌備出掛牌而已啊因為不是 沒有 我們的目標啦我們目標整個因為去年通過之後我們對於發展署所以我們才會說如果說在今年就成立的話我們就是今年下半年就要掛牌今年下半年可以正式的掛牌那因為我們覺得就是說我們一直希望說有一個具體的進度不要那個我們新住民基本法通過之後遲遲一直等不到"},{"start":313.158,"end":326.04,"text":"然後預算也等不到 籌備處也等不到所以比較明確今年下半年度是可以讓它正式掛牌就是施行法一施行我們接下來包括組織法包括這個成立我們都會接續 照程序來"},{"start":326.889,"end":349.56,"text":"好 我們在我們的立法院裡面我們也會盡量能夠希望趕快我們這個相關的組織法趕快通過啦其實我會希望說如果我們朝野大家協商因為我們會進入竹條嘛那其實如果說你們在一些業務上面能夠盡量大家能夠達成一些協議的話那麼這個組織法呢"},{"start":353.382,"end":361.384,"text":"的修正就不需要在立法院還要有什麼一個月的冷凍期就是變成說其實會拖延立法所以我們還是會希望能夠再做加速那另外剛才也有還也有這個委員談到就是我們的這個新住民的這個家庭那麼因為已經超過百萬人但是呢你如果看這些像求職網站他們做的一些調查也就是"},{"start":382.23,"end":405.956,"text":"其實我們因為新住民有些甚至有些被標籤化所以他們能做的一些工作當然不管是製造業或者餐飲服務業或者是清潔啦 江庭幫傭那事實上他們的薪資都有比較偏低的問題那而且呢也這個有根據去計算啦就說事實上呢有這個"},{"start":407.296,"end":433.277,"text":"六成就是大概有六成以上他的收入是沒有達四萬元的那所以低薪的問題確實在新住民家庭成為他們一個急需解決的問題所以當然我們希望說能夠讓這個新住民這個發展署能夠及時快速的成立但是即使是在沒有成立之前也希望能夠透過一些輔導的方式"},{"start":434.077,"end":446.685,"text":"加強的方式能讓我們新住民不管是在他的就業的機會或者他的薪資的部分能夠有很多的改善或者能夠提升好不好這個我們會配合勞動部的一個處理我們都會來做"},{"start":450.356,"end":474.686,"text":"不過這個如果我們這個新住民發展署成立之後這些有關勞動部分還是推給勞動部嗎沒有 其實目前既有業務有一些就是分工是在勞動部那我們如果說成立新住民發展署那我想我們也有一個科會來負責這個業務對 就應該是由我們這個新住民發展署來負責啦不要就是又推給那個勞動部我們都是分工啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":724,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時39分）謝謝主席。我請內政部次長，還有人事長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，次長、人事長，我想請問我們在整個新住民發展署成立的過程裡面，之前一直聽到有關於因為滿額的問題，就是中央政府三級機關有70個的上限，所以也一直都有一些協調，那負責協調的政務委員主要是哪一位？人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是組織面還是員額面？"],["王委員鴻薇：就是在員額面。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：員額面是沒有，上次三級機關的上限是70調整為71。"],["王委員鴻薇：71了。我想請問之前的政務委員史哲有沒有去協調有關於已經滿額的問題，有沒有？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他是組三級機關的上限，政委有去行政院內部去協調。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，史哲負責協調，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：嘿。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我真的覺得我們一直在等新住民發展署，其實很多新住民朋友已經等得非常不耐煩了，可是等來等去，你可以看到政務委員史哲去做高鐵的董事長，我們希望現在能夠加快腳步，因為事實上在去年底的時候，我們已經把員額數提高了，所以我想請問次長，新住民發展署在中央行政機關組織基準法已經修正通過之後，應該可以加快腳步，請問到底什麼時候能夠實施？我也想請問，因為你們114年度有沒有編列預算？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，我們有先行估算，如果今年成立的話，我們會走追加減，明年的部分都已經在籌編概算中。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以是可以在115年度來編列預算的？"],["吳次長堂安：我們正在籌編。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我為什麼要去問預算？因為你們籌編才代表會有可能落實嘛，因為如果你根本沒有編列預算的話，說也是白說而已。我想請問一下，這個發展署員額會有多少？主要的組織架構是什麼？"],["吳次長堂安：我想這邊跟委員報告，我們未來的組織架構、業務職掌、業務員額，還有例如辦公處所跟預算，我們都是follow整個新住民基本法的內容去做處理，目前初步規劃是4個組、12個科、正式員額100人，這一百人裡面其實大概會有將近50個是由移民署來做移撥，另外是新增員額。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以主要是一百多位？"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：會不會由移民署有一些移撥到新住民發展署？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，其實目前移民署有些業務，本來就是新住民的業務，這些人就會隨同業務移撥到新住民發展署。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，你剛剛講的預算編列，是針對新住民發展署的預算編列，不是籌備處的編列吧？"],["吳次長堂安：當然是以署的方式來做編列。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在你們概算這個金額大概會是多少？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，以今年來講的話，如果今年可以成立之後，我們預估下一個半年的部分，大概是約需1億8,000萬，其中也包括新增人事費，明（115）年的籌編概算，現在目前年度預算規模大概抓7億。"],["王委員鴻薇：這以115年度是7億，是不是？"],["吳次長堂安：對，是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以按照你們預算編列的方式，今年下半年度可以成立籌備處，是不是？然後正式的掛牌，按照你們現在這樣子的估算，正式掛牌運作大概是什麼時間？"],["吳次長堂安：我目前還無法估算，如果今年只要有成立，應該就會有走掛牌，大概是這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這是籌備處掛牌而已啊？"],["吳次長堂安：應該不是，沒有，我們的目標啦，因為去年通過之後，我們對於發展署的規劃，所以我們才會說，如果在今年就成立的話，今年下半年就要掛牌。"],["王委員鴻薇：今年下半年可以正式的掛牌？"],["吳次長堂安：是，如果順利的話。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們一直希望有一個具體的進度，不要原住民基本法通過之後，一直遲遲等不到，然後預算也等不到、籌備處也等不到，所以比較明確今年下半年度是可以正式掛牌……"],["吳次長堂安：這邊跟委員報告，只要施行法一施行，接下來包括組織法、成立，我們都會接續照程序來做。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，在立法院裡面，我們也會儘量能夠……希望相關的組織法趕快通過，我會希望如果朝野大家協商，因為我們會進入逐條討論，如果你們在一些業務上面，大家能夠達成一些協議的話，那麼這個組織法的修正，就不需要在立法院還要有一個月的冷凍期，其實會拖延立法，所以我們還是會希望能夠再做加速。另外剛才也有委員談到新住民的家庭，因為已經超過百萬人，但是如果看求職網站所做的調查，因為新住民有些被標籤化，所以他們能做的工作，當然不管是製造業或者餐飲服務業，或者是清潔、家庭幫傭，事實上薪資都有比較偏低的問題。根據計算大概有六成的人收入是沒有達四萬元的，所以低薪的問題，在新住民家庭確實成為他們急需解決的。當然我們希望新住民發展署能夠及時快速的成立，但是即使是在沒有成立之前，也希望能夠透過一些輔導的方式、加強的方式，讓新住民不管是在就業的機會，或者薪資的部分，能有很多的改善或者能夠提升，好不好？"],["吳次長堂安：這個部分我們會配合勞動部的處理，都會來做。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果新住民發展署成立之後，這些有關勞動部分還是推給勞動部嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：沒有，其實目前既有業務的分工有些是在勞動部，如果成立新住民發展署，也會有一個科來負責這個業務。"],["王委員鴻薇：應該是由新住民發展署來負責，不要又是推給勞動部。"],["吳次長堂安：我們都是分工。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。","另外我們修正先前的宣告：因為上午的會議，進行至所有登記發言委員詢答完畢後再散會，討論事項法案另定期處理。","請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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有請次長麻煩次長"},{"start":15.325,"end":18.947,"text":"市長好我想這個因為最近的新聞媒體都有報導閃兵事件頻傳那麼尤其是這個王大陸等等27人的閃兵案其實在本週一的時候就已經起訴了27個人那麼對於這樣的一個問題其實我想社會大眾都很關注那麼到底這個現在去扶替代役他的在整個的"},{"start":41.358,"end":63.41,"text":"審驗的過程當中有沒有真的有不實的這個狀況或是有包庇想要去申請免除替代役的人的這樣一個情況那麼簡單來說就是其實蠻多現在要服替代役年齡的這些青年他們都想方設法想要逃兵那麼對於就是"},{"start":65.092,"end":87.715,"text":"內政部除了說目前主動清查還有檢討體會判定等等標準之外對於就是防範逃兵役的這件事情逃服替代役的這個事情內政部目前有沒有就是有沒有一些新的計畫要怎麼樣來防止這個異難來逃避服替代役"},{"start":88.627,"end":111.566,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教我想服病疫是國民應經義務啦那我們內政部的醫生師就這個部分像後續如果有說修正相關的體會確認標準我們都會跟國防部來做個確認那這一次的事件其實也凸顯了如果說有一些需要再做補強補全的我們都會跟國防部來做一個討論"},{"start":112.366,"end":126.537,"text":"好我想內政部這邊可能還是要積極一些因為現在看到這個line today上面其實也有發起投票然後也說這個有好就是由民間自發這個認為說有些方案基本是可以防止這個防止"},{"start":129.579,"end":151.155,"text":"這個逃避服替代役的這樣子的一個這樣的一些做法那我希望就是說內政部呢其實應該要更積極的去跟國防部或是你們自己內部也要提出一個相關的檢討方案否則的話我們看到有些人他就會鑽法律漏洞或是利用這個提報不實的醫檢的報告來"},{"start":154.797,"end":175.175,"text":"逃避替代役所以這個部分希望次長能夠多關注這個議題那接下來就是說有關於替代役管理其實也出了問題因為我們有看到新聞上面有在講就是有役男有爆料在成功嶺上面甚至可能有一些替代役的役男在軍中"},{"start":178.158,"end":197.758,"text":"在營內持有或吸食毒品或者是還強迫同梯的一男吸食的這些新聞那麼我們知道其實依照毒品防害防治條例第33條的規定其實對於特定人員的尿液要進行採驗"},{"start":200.202,"end":225.787,"text":"那麼在這邊要請教就是說對於這首入伍時候的這些替代役藝男會實施相關的尿液檢驗嗎因為如果說在替代役藝男在營中然後發生這些問題那目前是怎麼樣的管理方式而且就是他們在服役的過程當中有沒有就是常常會去進行一些尿檢"},{"start":226.809,"end":246.753,"text":"是我想跟委員報告因為剛好這個議政並不是我這邊執掌不過就我理解啦應該是個案的問題應該在進來營區的時候在營區是並沒有說有其他的不法的情況那你委員講的部分是不是我容我會後我再請我們議政室來檢討一下說我們未來有什麼方法去做一個防度"},{"start":247.426,"end":261.929,"text":"好的我想這個議題基本上因為在網路上面其實有曾經有服過替代役的一男其實也有相關的這個反應就是說在整個的替代役的這個他們的這個統一管理的營區裡面可能"},{"start":263.31,"end":274.801,"text":"會有發生這樣的一個情況那麼如果說是這個還強迫其他同梯的這個夥伴還要去吸食一些相關毒品的話那我認為說這個其實是嚴重的問題而且呢就是現在"},{"start":279.045,"end":304.662,"text":"既然我們在毒品防害防治條例裡面其實有規定針對一些特定的人員他必須要採取實施尿液的檢測所以未來像是替代液的應難有沒有這個必要可能就是例行性的可能每隔一段時間去進行尿液檢測來確保說他們基本上不會在營區裡面有發生有這種吸毒的狀況我覺得這個也是有必要的那就請次長可能這部分再行研議"},{"start":305.522,"end":312.863,"text":"好 然後還有就是有關於總統府因為就是大家記得總統其實他上任之後沒多久他基本上就宣布了幾個委員會雖然這個委員會可能跳脫組織法裡面的規定但是像全社會防衛任性委員會還有就是接下來我們談的這個城鎮任性委員會等等其實他們基本上都常常都會去辦一些民安演習所謂的這些防護的演習"},{"start":334.187,"end":354.477,"text":"可是我們曉得不管是這個全社會防衛任性委員會舉辦的實地演練或者是城鎮任性的演習其實看起來現在軍方都沒有加入都沒有參與這個是什麼原因為什麼都強調軍方不參與不依賴國軍的支援這樣子的做法是對的嗎"},{"start":357.946,"end":371.495,"text":"其實我們的全社會防外任性的部分其實跟軍方的演習是並不相干啦只是說我們要了解說台灣未來發生一些緊急危難危害的時候我們對於國人的部分的全民的"},{"start":372.655,"end":389.104,"text":"的防衛 例如說有要防災室訓練還有緊急救護還有一些做一個處理我想跟國軍那個是變得不一樣我在這邊我要提醒市長的就是說因為在我們的災害防救法裡面的規定基本上國軍是有一定的角色的"},{"start":390.104,"end":414.095,"text":"那在我們的民防法裡面其實也是說民防工作要與軍事情務相關的話他們是由中央主管局 內政部跟國防部一起督導執行也就是說我們今天辦理這些演習基本上不能夠說只是由民間或是由內政部去督導它未來它發生緊急事故的時候一定是國軍也會加入"},{"start":415.135,"end":442.919,"text":"所以未來在你們的相關的演習舉辦的時候實際演練本席是認為基本上還是要能夠主動的聯繫國軍大家一起來辦這樣才有意義否則的話真的發生什麼情況的話變成是兩邊沒有辦法系統沒有辦法聯繫然後也忽略了國軍資源與國軍資源的整合是非常可惜的一件事情因為在我們現行法裡面就已經有清楚的規定"},{"start":443.859,"end":460.605,"text":"所以本席這邊也提出來希望內政部也能夠去檢討未來相關演習的時候應該要結合國軍一起來舉辦這樣才會更有意義還能夠發揮實際的功效好不好那就這樣提供給次長做參考"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時31分）主席好，有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長好。因為最近新聞媒體都有報導，就是閃兵事件頻傳，尤其是王大陸等等27人的閃兵案，其實在本週一的時候就已經起訴了27個人。對於這樣一個問題，我想社會大眾都很關注，到底現在去服替代役在整個審驗過程當中有沒有不實的狀況，或是有包庇申請免除替代役的人這樣一個情況？簡單來說，其實滿多現在要服替代役年齡的青年都想方設法要逃兵，目前內政部除了主動清查，還有檢討體位判定等等標準之外，對於防範逃兵役這件事情、逃服替代役這個事情，內政部目前有沒有一些新的計畫，要怎麼樣防止役男逃避服替代役？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員的指教。我想服兵役是國民應盡義務，我們內政部役政司就這個部分，後續如果有修正相關的體位確認標準，我們都會跟國防部做個確認。這一次事件其實也凸顯如果有一些需要再補強、補全的，我們都會跟國防部討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想內政部這邊可能還是要積極一些，因為現在看到LINE 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蠻精準的 古尼47嘛那現在核冷廢掉之後已經將近五成了那這次這個金色衝突就看到啦"},{"start":54.929,"end":83.457,"text":"第一個石油跟天然氣在飆漲嘛所以你們要開國安會議嘛這是第一次嘛第二次也是很重要的啊你有沒有發現烏俄戰爭的時候就炸那個天然氣的儲存槽啊對不對是那這是一樣啊你看這個以色列馬上就打的也是對對不對能源跟通訊啊大概是戰爭發生的時候就是第一集啊大概關鍵基礎設施所以你要開火兩個重點第一這個能源政策要好好去想一下你高度依賴天然氣這本身是個問題"},{"start":84.719,"end":97.43,"text":"那第二個,上次我肯定你就是,高關稅這個談判裡面,我們要找到美國願意賣給我們,而且是我們要的嘛,會給我們一個共識,是,你說你爭取要跟美國買核能的技術跟他們的設備,對不對?沒有啦,我是覺得應該是先解決核廢料,其實美國、法國他們都有很先進可以處理核廢料,"},{"start":109.901,"end":129.845,"text":"因為AIT處長肯定會說什麼他就是說在核能的技術還有包括核會的處理他們要幫忙他已經講了三次了到後來他受不了他推特上面他自己都還貼上去你不是說要去反應嗎你贊成你沒有去反應我有反應啦有反應美國應該很高興啊"},{"start":131.954,"end":140.576,"text":"因為你賣給我們 我們第一個我們這個逆差就可以 我們賺到錢就減少了所以採購是縮短貿易對我們的電力有幫助然後核電也有技術 項目之一 採購有齁 那供料到底怎樣啦應該是華裔的啦 這個有主管機關啦負責啦 經濟部或者是這個跟這個好 從這次的以色列跟伊朗的這個金氏衝突我們看到兩個很重大歧視 第一個天然氣佔比太高 這個抽油能源政策要去調整"},{"start":160.922,"end":188.011,"text":"第二個趕快再推動核電特別是美國已經主動開口了要賣給我們核電的技術跟設備包括你剛才說的核威力要處理我覺得委員剛剛提到一點除了這個能源結構以外我們這個天然氣跟油大量的依賴中東這次也說明了這是個風險所以我們會增加對美國的採購氣跟油也有增加能源韌性所以這個是國安的一部分"},{"start":188.351,"end":203.939,"text":"我贊成啦,你剛剛提到的,不過我跟你講美國現在那個,聽說成本比較高啦,搞不好價格會...它量大之後,價格就會下來,這個是...量大一點,然後要降下來,經濟保健公可能要比現在的,我們是所有天然氣賺的占比,10%是從美國來,那以後可能會變20%或30%,那量...你講的,保健公...量大的,價格就要降,不能夠一兩倍價格,這樣不行"},{"start":211.002,"end":225.434,"text":"所以除了採購如果我們投資的話我們就變成就是會反映在我們未來也有一定的籌碼我們贊成跟美國買天然氣可是價格不能太高來 我們來談一個馬紹爾總統變成漏湯機的事情"},{"start":229.574,"end":247.405,"text":"這台鐵到底是外交部的疏忽還是總統府的不對跟委員報告這是總統府第三局的業務但是我是會代為說明我認為真的到他走到最後才突然間有一下雨而且真的他已經走到已經都進場然後已經在落場因為唱完國歌之後他要走回來的時候突然"},{"start":254.689,"end":270.096,"text":"有一個大雨 陣雨啦馬紹爾那個總統你看看就是最後那一段你看那個頭起起那個是多大的雨然後你看這樣很不禮貌啦不是 我覺得委員齁如果您有可以我用一分鐘時間說明一下齁因為他們馬紹爾這個海寧總統自己有發聲明喔"},{"start":273.41,"end":290.686,"text":"他自己有說明其實這完全沒有失禮而且對他們來講這個有一個突然間的陣雨這也是一種就是他們在他們文化裡面是代表下雨是一線就是這個所謂的這個好的祝福但我們不去講這個我講的是說他的標準作業程序其實他從車子到然後進場"},{"start":296.631,"end":325.024,"text":"到唱國歌然後這個三軍儀隊的禮炮都完了他在做閱兵的時候在走最後彎回來的那一段突然間有個陣雨這個其實是標準作業程序就是把它走完以前也是這個樣子所以外面的人因為沒有去了解這整個過程就造成誤會好像我們故意要去漏這個雨然後好像很失禮我們又好像引以為是一件好事 廣正那清德賴總統最近出訪的話淋了雨你會這樣講嗎"},{"start":326.204,"end":328.286,"text":"其實有兩個問題嘛第一個是你氣象報告的掌握這是一個問題嘛第二個你隨時要應變啊現在總統出來講是什麼因為三軍儀隊都是沒有拿雨傘的跟穿雨衣的在現場這是兩國的國事訪問耶"},{"start":342.757,"end":358.262,"text":"所以其實這個就是標準作為澄清我為什麼說我說外交是專業有一些批評我必須要澄清是因為我覺得我們看專業啦 保定你幫人要辯護啦 不然被困在外面來 這是第三局的業務啦2017年 來來來 保定你看一下你看看 你當然有專業 我知道這也是專業啦2017年蔡英文總統抵達荒都拉斯的時候 進行經理你看 人家去繞路經理上面當然是可以撐傘的 為什麼不行"},{"start":369.298,"end":380.911,"text":"你講一般的專業 可是更重要的專業跟尊重 專業跟尊重就是像這樣蔡英文總統沒有被淋雨嘛 我也很滿意賴清德總統說的沒有淋上去是不是這樣如果有問題就要去解決問題 不要一直用專業這個名詞這個也是專業啊 洪都大使人家專不專業這兩個都是專業 情況不一樣 都處理得很好"},{"start":391.933,"end":409.786,"text":"不過至少不要讓我們總統出去淋雨啦好不好沒有我現在是要說明就是說那天的國事訪問的整個軍理過程都合乎規定而且雙方面都認為這樣是很正常至於說外面如果斷章取義我作為外交部長我必須替總統府第三局來說"},{"start":410.486,"end":440.286,"text":"我們應該講說這是天上的祝福嘛這個就是現場的時候海里總統講的話因為我跟他很熟他也用這樣的話講所以我們才會引據來作為一個說明好啦 你至少也承認人家國外的專業嘛對不對我們自己如果真的有失誤這兩個都是專業 這沒有衝突不過林大比總是不好的OK 好啦最後有點時間 大概一分鐘好不好趕快早上我看很多人在問你這個去以色列度假打工這個事情你剛講的一個計畫很重要啊"},{"start":441.186,"end":462.251,"text":"以色列就是一個長年戰爭威脅的地方嘛對 他們有避難設施 隨時那個警示 隨時的通訊所以其實他們的狀況我們不能夠用外人去理解在那邊生活 不管是在那邊已經定居 或者是工作 或者在那邊求學的人他的選擇 就是我們必須 如果你強迫他撤離"},{"start":464.031,"end":483.675,"text":"因為它跟伊朗的情形不一樣那因為國際上也是就是維持度假打工而且都要有受理這個不是說一公佈就一堆人去啊所以不能夠把這個程序壓縮好像我們鼓勵大家去暫地冒著風險這個這個不好啦因為這個會造成誤會這個度假打工這個合作必須要什麼時候簽這個之前簽嘛有生效日嘛我們就按照這個因為你突然間還沒有進入到更"},{"start":493.937,"end":520.998,"text":"更高的警示等級你自己單方面去做一些行動這在外交上是是很不合宜的啦現在問題出在哪裡就是2023年12月27號要簽這個備忘錄的時候那時候中東的情勢應該已經是緊張了吧那時候以色列跟以哈應該就已經開打了吧我肯定我知道我們的外交人員是辛苦我們國家處境也是困難的要多一些交流這個我們都肯定可是在交流跟國人生命安全之間"},{"start":522.196,"end":527.139,"text":"它是2023年10月10月7號發生戰爭嘛那我意思是說其實這種常年在威脅之下就像我們不要讓國際人認為說台灣很危險都不能來一樣我說這個怎麼樣去符合實際啊但是我意思是說他們的這些避難或安全的措施做得非常好全社會防禦任性 全民皆兵"},{"start":547.152,"end":565.826,"text":"我們不要是用外人 因為我們任何一個動作都會讓他覺得說 那以後我們台灣咧只要有一個什麼樣的中共的動作 那全世界人都不要來嘛這個都是我們有長遠的思考啊 而且是對等的第一 我們台灣比以色列安全很多啦第二個 當然 我知道我們外國人也很辛苦當然台灣 台灣北一 東京交流比較推的部長 我今天要跟你討論的是 當初要簽這個備忘錄的時候以哈戰爭 那時候中東已經緊張了所以要簽這個要更謹慎 我不是反對簽啦"},{"start":575.834,"end":579.875,"text":"就是安全一定要注意啦這第一點 第一點 我跟妳說妳的這個度假打工的這個還在妳們這個網站上面耶妳至少蓋一個暫緩吧或者做一些說明吧因為它暫緩啦我剛才在看 我上去看它還是應該有 有貼暫緩的"},{"start":597.097,"end":624.289,"text":"對 就是停止啦上面蓋一個暫緩嘛要嘛就先撤下來是個辦法啦好不好沒有沒有沒有其實雙方面簽的東西在那裡就是在那裡那因為行政程序在辦理的時候我們已經所以暫緩 當然要繼續推動可以當然可是最重要的就是國人安全還是第一啦對不對 國人安全第一個第二個 既然已經是現在暫緩要把它講清楚好不好是 實驗到同仁參考一下委員剛剛的提醒謝謝我們張啟台委員的諮詢接下來有林育君委員上台諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時29分）謝謝主席。部長，還沒請就先上台了？"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝，委員也迫不及待，而且您的質詢都非常深入。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝，我上次也很肯定你。早上部長特別提到，為因應以色列跟伊朗的軍事衝突要召開國安會議，並針對石油跟天然氣的價格……"],["林部長佳龍：雖然我在這裡沒去參加院會，但我都有掌握，也知道行政院長已經有所裁示。"],["張委員啓楷：這次的衝突正好彰顯了一點，那就是要好好重視我們錯誤的能源政策！部長知道嗎？現在天然氣在我們所有發電的占比是多少？"],["林部長佳龍：朝五成邁進。"],["張委員啓楷：不錯，滿精準的。去年是47%，在核能廢掉之後，天然氣已經將近五成了。透過這次軍事衝突可以看到：第一個，石油跟天然氣飆漲，所以你們要開國安會議，這是第一點。第二個，這也很重要，烏俄戰爭時就炸天然氣儲存槽，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這次也是一樣，你看以色列打的也是……"],["林部長佳龍：對，能源跟通訊大概是戰爭發生時的第一擊，即關鍵基礎設施……"],["張委員啓楷：所以開會的兩個重點：第一，能源政策要好好想一下，因為高度倚賴天然氣這本身就是個問題；第二，上次我會肯定你是因為面對高關稅的談判，我們要找到美國願意賣給我們，而且是我們要的。那天之所以誇你，是因為我們有個共識，你說要爭取向美國買核能技術及設備，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，而且我覺得應該先解決核廢料問題。其實美國、法國已經很先進，可以處理核廢料……"],["張委員啓楷：AIT處長谷立言已經說三次了！他說在核能技術，包括核廢料處理上，他們可以幫忙，他已經講三次了。到後來他受不了，就自己在Threads和推特上貼文，你不是說要反映？你贊成，但你沒有去反映？"],["林部長佳龍：我有反映。"],["張委員啓楷：有反映？那美國應該很高興，只要美國願意賣給我們，那麼逆差就可以……"],["林部長佳龍：採購是縮短貿易逆差的……"],["張委員啓楷：我們賺他的錢就減少，買到的話對我們的電力有幫助，然後也有核電技術……"],["林部長佳龍：項目之一。"],["張委員啓楷：到底講得怎麼樣？他們應該很高興……"],["林部長佳龍：由主管機關在負責，經濟部或者是……"],["張委員啓楷：從這次以色列跟伊朗的軍事衝突，我們看到兩個很重要的啟示：一，天然氣占比太高，這項錯誤的能源政策要調整；二，趕快再推動核電，特別是美國已經主動開口了，要賣給我們核電的技術跟設備，包括你說的核廢料處理問題……"],["林部長佳龍：委員剛剛提到一點，除了能源結構以外，我們的天然氣跟油大量依賴中東，這次也說明了這是個風險！因此，我們除增加對美國採購天然氣跟油以外，也要增加能源韌性，所以這是國安的一部分。"],["張委員啓楷：這個我贊成。不過聽說現在美國的成本比較高，搞不好價格會……"],["林部長佳龍：量大之後價格就會下來……"],["張委員啓楷：買的量大一點，讓價格降下來。經濟部長說可能會比現在的……因為現在我們所購買的天然氣占比中，有10%來自美國，以後可能會變20%或30%，如此在量上就跟部長所說的……"],["林部長佳龍：最近……"],["張委員啓楷：量大了，價格就要降，不能夠用兩倍價格，這樣不行！"],["林部長佳龍：所以除了採購外，如果我們投資的話，未來我們也會有一定的籌碼。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們贊成跟美國買天然氣，可是價格不能太高。","現在我們來談馬紹爾總統變成落湯雞這件事。這到底是外交部的疏忽，還是總統府不對？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，這是總統府第三局的業務，但我可以代為說明。那天已經走到最後才突然下雨，而且真的……"],["張委員啓楷：一開始沒多久就下雨了，不是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：No、No，已經走到……"],["張委員啓楷：至少一半了。"],["林部長佳龍：已經唱完國歌，也進場、繞場，要走回來的時候突然下大雨、陣雨。"],["張委員啓楷：你看馬紹爾總統……"],["林部長佳龍：就是最後那一段……"],["張委員啓楷：頭低低的，那是多大的雨？這樣實在很不禮貌！"],["林部長佳龍：如果可以，容我用一分鐘時間說明一下。馬紹爾總統自己有發聲明，說這完全沒有失禮。在他們的文化裡，突然間的陣雨對他們來講是好的祝福，但我們不講這個。我要講的是標準作業程序，其實從車子到、進場、施放禮炮、唱國歌、三軍儀隊致敬都做完了，最後在校閱繞回來的那一段突然下了陣雨。以標準作業程序而言就是把它走完，以前也是這樣子，不過外人並不了解這整個過程，於是造成誤會，好像我們故意挑下雨時來進行、很失禮，我們又好像以為這是一件好事……"],["張委員啓楷：如果賴清德總統在出訪時淋了雨，你會這樣講嗎？這其實有兩個問題：首先，對氣象報告的掌握，這是一個問題；第二，要隨時應變。現在總統府說什麼……"],["林部長佳龍：因為現場三軍儀隊都沒有拿傘、穿雨衣，而且這是兩國的國是訪問！所以這是標準作業程序，我為什麼說外交是專業？有一些批評我必須要澄清，是因為我覺得……"],["張委員啓楷：部長當然要辯護，不過還是要看專業。"],["林部長佳龍：這是第三局的業務……"],["張委員啓楷：2017年……"],["林部長佳龍：但是我們……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你看一下！你看一下！你說要專業我知道，這也是專業啊！2017年蔡英文總統抵達宏都拉斯的時候正逢下雨，他們也舉行軍禮，但是你看，他們有拿雨傘啊，軍禮上面當然可以撐傘啊，為什麼不行？你講一部分的專業，可是更重要的是專業跟尊重，專業跟尊重就是像這樣，蔡英文總統沒有淋雨嘛，我也希望以後賴清德總統出去不要淋到雨，是不是這樣？"],["林部長佳龍：這情況是不一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：如果有問題就要去解決問題，不要一直用「專業」這個名詞，這個也是專業啊！宏都拉斯專不專業？"],["林部長佳龍：這兩個都是專業，但情況不一樣，都處理得很好。"],["張委員啓楷：至少不要讓我們總統出去淋雨啦，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，我還是要說明的就是……"],["張委員啓楷：要更專業、要禮貌。"],["林部長佳龍：那天國是訪問的整個軍禮過程都合乎規定，而且雙方都認為這樣是很正常。至於外面如果斷章取義，我作為外交部長，我必須替總統府第三局來說明。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說這是天上的祝福，這已經被罵慘了……"],["林部長佳龍：這個就是在現場的時候海妮總統講的話……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，你今天可能要辯護……"],["林部長佳龍：因為我跟她很熟，她也用這樣的話講，所以我們才會引據來作為一個說明。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，你至少也承認人家國外的專業嘛，對不對？我們自己如果真的有疏忽要補強啦！"],["林部長佳龍：這兩個都是專業，這沒有衝突。"],["張委員啓楷：不過淋到雨總是不好啦！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["張委員啓楷：最後再用點時間，大概1分鐘。早上我看很多人詢問有關於國人去以色列度假打工的這個事情，你剛剛講到的那個計畫很重要啊，以色列就是一個長年戰爭威脅的地方嘛，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對，他們的避難設施隨時，那個警示隨時的通訊，所以對於他們的狀況，我們不能夠以外人的眼光去理解，在那邊生活的人，不管是在那邊定居、工作或是求學，他的選擇我們必須尊重，不適合強迫他撤離，因為以色列跟伊朗的情形不一樣，國際上也是維持度假打工，而且都要有受理，這個不是說一公布就一堆人去啊，所以不能夠把這個程序壓縮，好像我們鼓勵大家去戰地冒風險，這個不好啦，因為這樣會造成誤會。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，度假打工的合作備忘錄是什麼時候簽署的？你知道這個MOU是什麼時候簽署的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個之前簽的，有生效日嘛，我們就按照這個，因為你突然間……"],["張委員啓楷：2023年的……"],["林部長佳龍：還沒有進入到更高的警示等級，你自己單方面去做一些行動，這在外交上是很不合宜的啦！"],["張委員啓楷：現在的問題出在哪裡？就是2023年12月27號要簽這個備忘錄的時候，那時候中東的情勢應該已經是緊張了嘛，那時候以哈應該已經開打了嘛，我肯定、我知道我們的外交人員是辛苦的，我們的外交處境也是困難的，要多一些交流，這個我們都肯定，可是在交流跟國人生命安全之間，還是要以生命安全為重。"],["林部長佳龍：是2023年10月7號發生戰爭嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對，12月27號簽署的。"],["林部長佳龍：我的意思是說，其實對於這種長年在威脅之下的國家，就像我們不要讓國際認為臺灣很危險、都不能來一樣，我覺得這個怎麼樣去符合實際……"],["張委員啓楷：臺灣比以色列安全很多啊！部長，安全太多了！"],["林部長佳龍：但是我的意思是說，他們的避難或安全措施做得非常好，全社會防禦韌性、全民皆兵，我們不要用外人的眼光去看，因為我們任何一個動作都會讓人家覺得說那以後我們臺灣呢？只要中共有一個什麼樣的動作，全世界的人都不要來嗎？這個都是我們有長遠的思考啊，而且是對等的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長！第一個，我們臺灣比以色列安全很多啦！第二個，當然，我知道我們外交人員很辛苦……"],["林部長佳龍：我們知道安全，但外人看……"],["張委員啓楷：當然臺灣第一，當然交流總是要推動的……"],["林部長佳龍：……不一樣！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天要跟你討論的是當初要簽這個備忘錄的時候，以哈戰爭已經開打，那時候中東已經緊張了，所以要簽這個要更謹慎，我不是反對簽啦，就是安全一定要注意啦，這是第一個。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，這個台以度假打工計畫還掛在你們的網站上面耶，你至少蓋一個暫緩或者做一些說明吧！我剛剛上去看，你們的推特上面還有啊！"],["林部長佳龍：應該有說暫緩了，就是停止了。"],["張委員啓楷：那就在上面蓋一個暫緩嘛，不然就先撤下來也是個辦法啦，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有、沒有、沒有！其實雙方面簽的東西在那裡就是在那裡，因為行政程序在辦理的時候，我們已經……"],["張委員啓楷：……暫緩了，我知道，當然，要繼續推動可以，可是最重要的就是國人安全還是第一啦，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我同意。"],["張委員啓楷：國人安全第一。第二個，既然現在已經暫緩了，就要把它講清楚，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["主席：時間到了。"],["林部長佳龍：我請同仁參考一下委員剛剛的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","接下來請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162727","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162727","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817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Kacaw等21人、（三）國民黨黨團、（四）委員張智倫等17人、（五）委員葉元之等21人及（六）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部新住民發展署組織法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-19","start_time":"2025-06-19T11:23:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-19T11:31:10+08:00","duration":454,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.050968750000001,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.40534375,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.910343750000003,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.49159375,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.02346875,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.78284375000001,"end":102.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.85034375000001,"end":102.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.60971875000001,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.71034375,"end":109.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.03909375,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.37971875000001,"end":117.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.39659375000001,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.56534375000001,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.97034375000001,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.03784375000001,"end":118.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.75846875,"end":125.73284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.25596875000001,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.64346875,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.49971875,"end":133.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.66409375,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.41784375,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.34534375,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.03721875000002,"end":160.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.58534375000002,"end":152.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.20846875,"end":179.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.99471875,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.36596875,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.49096875,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.15221875,"end":197.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.01284375,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.04659375,"end":197.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.31659375,"end":197.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.45159375,"end":200.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.46846875,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.17659375000002,"end":208.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.24409375000002,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.70346875,"end":207.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.17971875,"end":209.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.28096875,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.77034375000002,"end":216.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.66409375,"end":215.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.79471875000002,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.09409375,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.57846875,"end":231.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.66659375,"end":227.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.14721875,"end":228.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.30284375000002,"end":234.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.17596875,"end":234.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.98159375,"end":237.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.34409375,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.59721875000002,"end":237.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.41534375,"end":245.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.10284375,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.92534375000002,"end":249.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.29159375,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.99846875000003,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.18346875000003,"end":271.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.38096875,"end":277.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.42659375,"end":283.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.83909375,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.26096875,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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我們請吳次長還有移民署林署長以及人事總署的蘇仁市長蘇市長"},{"start":23.639,"end":37.804,"text":"請教一下次長跟署長就是我們的新住民基本法其實在去年的8月12號就已經正式公告了那當然這一步法我想是為了保護新住民而且對於我們的多元的族群跟包容社會的一個承諾"},{"start":38.704,"end":58.959,"text":"那其實從這個通過公告到現在其實已經快要大概差不多十個月的時候但是目前都還沒有定定施行的日期甚至連專責的機構目前也都還成立的時間都還沒有下文那請教一下次長因為我知道在去年七月我們這個法"},{"start":60.019,"end":80.739,"text":"一完成三讀之後其實當時的政務委員就是史哲他已經就有召開一次的會議那針對這個部分的話他也說要落實新住民基本法第四條所定的應該這個設置新住民事務專責的中央三級行政機關並於適當的時機承包行政院的這個審議那請問次長當時負責這個的政務委員史哲"},{"start":85.623,"end":102.139,"text":"因為他現在已經高升離職去當高鐵的董事長坐領高薪那針對他所帶領的之前政務委員擔任負責的部分是不是又要再重來一次新的政務委員接了之後是不是又要重開一次會議"},{"start":103.969,"end":125.551,"text":"謝謝委員 我想這個去年在史哲政委的邀集下其實我們也有跟行政院都有報告我們未來成立三級機關的一個進度所以後來後續的部分是由我們這邊成立那個我們的所以史哲 當時政務委員他只主持過那麼一次就是七月的時候召開的是嗎應該有兩次 不止"},{"start":126.272,"end":146.199,"text":"在今年的5月27號有第三次的一個召開也是有史哲這個政務委員召開的嗎是的所以說光這個他召開的這個會議就三次那你們剛剛我看你們的報告你們寫總共有召開過七次是有包含這三次嗎沒有跟委員包含那七次是我們內政部跟移民署"},{"start":146.919,"end":163.091,"text":"我們針對要成立三級基專所以表示說已經有跨部會的這個院會來去協調那為什麼到現在還沒有辦法成立這個專責機構的這個施行的日期我想就是因為基本法裡面的內容條文的部分"},{"start":163.291,"end":192.604,"text":"第一個我們要先確認他的未來的業務執掌所以有包括剛剛文化教育勞動跟衛福部的分工那有些的寄存業務是在他們各個部會那我們就是我們開會就是要哪些業務是收整到有我們的成立的新的那如果像這樣講的話其實包含政院的已經開了十次會那都還沒有這個嗎還沒有這個討論好誰負責的跟誰分工的這相關的業務嗎跟委員報告其實我們自己的內部的部分就是未來新竹民發展署"},{"start":193.044,"end":208.6,"text":"我們就是已經大概規劃完就是四個組十二個課然後需求那其他部會因為我在內政委會我很清楚但是請問其他的部會其他部會就是來參加我這邊的那個小組會議然後那好請問什麼時候可以施行"},{"start":209.821,"end":238.655,"text":"那我想這個部分相關後續我們都有跟行政院做報告對 那什麼時候呢整個組織法 因為拖了快一年了嘛一點進展都沒有連這個籌備小組感覺上都沒有太大的進展不會 其實我們幾乎進展都已經差不多那接下來就是那好 差不多了嗎行政院如果說一旦申請的時候那預估大概什麼時候你們已經送行政院了嗎我們都有把資料都有先跟行政院報告過好 那大概什麼時候呢這個可能還要問行政院那行政院今天有人來嗎"},{"start":240.998,"end":261.605,"text":"還要問行政院也就是說你們都送給行政院但是行政院還沒決定嗎我們都有跟行政院討論我們就正在討論然後包括所謂這個新住民發展署的組織法的內容那這樣子每個部會如果到這樣大家都推來推去你主管什麼我主管什麼你負責什麼我負責什麼然後都不知道最後再推給行政院那請問這部法大概什麼時候可以正式施行"},{"start":262.065,"end":285.5,"text":"我跟你講其實我們沒有推啦我們就是第一個我們把我們分內事情都先做好了那也就是說內政部的部分沒問題了是其他部位的問題囉我們其他部位的話其實有一些是業務收整跟做實施而已那聽你這樣講應該很快囉因為內政部已經好了其他部位都在收尾所以應該很快會好了那我想照顧新住民的權益這個是我們應該做的啦"},{"start":286.16,"end":305.234,"text":"我想其實我們有一個對照組我們可以看到運動部的組織法在114年1月24號才公告但卓榮泰院長在短短的數個月之間就高調的宣布9月9號要正式掛牌成立運動部籌備的進度令人十分吃驚"},{"start":306.255,"end":331.817,"text":"但是相較於新住民的基本法照理說運動部是行政院的二級機關它所牽扯的範圍可能更大需要了解的事情可能更多而且新住民專責機構不過就是三級機構照理說也應該比較容易設立那為什麼是會高層如果有意就快馬加鞭那如果沒有關注就無限拖延我甚至懷疑就是說如果這個"},{"start":334.099,"end":353.918,"text":"這個我們的新住民基本法如果可以對大罷免這個加溫的話也許早就通過了就是因為它對大罷免沒什麼影響甚至是負面的影響所以到現在可能都沒通過的原因是在這裡然後另外再請教您一下就是行政院網站也把新住民基本法列為重要的政策那我請教一下次長"},{"start":355.279,"end":374.125,"text":"常常說要照顧新住民把新住民當作我們的家人可是現在看到好像只是把新住民當成宣傳工具根本就沒有要落實基本的誠意那也請內政部跟人事總處清楚的回答新住民基本法的實施日期為什麼還沒辦法決定是誰在擋剛剛次長已經回答過那請這個人事總長"},{"start":380.244,"end":408.726,"text":"謝謝委員我想新住民的一個潛意照顧是大家都有共識事實上也沒有在擋因為在整個審議的程序我們必須要按照一定的一個程序來讓大家就按照整個程序當社會法制委員會指出法通過以後你就記得一步一步來我們一定支持因為對新住民潛意的保障大家都有很高的共識那任市長既然說沒有在擋那"},{"start":409.747,"end":434.065,"text":"就是在拖囉也不是在拖 事實上很重要就是說之前喔 在基本法第三條裡面所有這一些新住民潛意的一些業務的推動還是回歸到主管機關 譬如像衛福部相關部會嘛那現在內政部在做的就是要把這一些原來各個部會主管的再把它細緻化 因為既然成立這個"},{"start":435.066,"end":452.185,"text":"新的機關我們就是要做的比以前更好嗎我知道你們都非常的細緻啊所以就到現在都已經將近快一年了那其實看起來的話我覺得這種事實上是已經涉及行政太多所以還是希望各部會大家要共同的加快腳步為我們的新住民爭取權益謝謝好 謝謝謝偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我們請吳次長，還有移民署林署長以及人事總處的蘇人事長。"],["主席：麻煩次長、署長、蘇人事長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好。"],["林署長宏恩：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：次長、署長、人事長，好。請教一下次長跟署長，我們的新住民基本法其實在去年的8月12號就已經正式公告了，當然這一部法是為了保護新住民，而且是對於我們多元的族群跟包容社會的一個承諾。從通過、公告到現在，其實已經差不多快要10個月，但是目前都還沒有訂定施行的日期，甚至連專責的機關目前成立的時間也都還沒有下文。","請教一下次長，我知道在去年7月這個法一完成三讀之後，其實當時的政務委員史哲就已經有召開一次的會議，針對這個部分，他也說要落實新住民基本法第四條所訂定的，應該設置新住民事務專責的中央三級行政機關，並於適當的時機陳報行政院審議。請問次長，當時負責這個的政務委員史哲，因為他現在已經高升離職去當高鐵董事長，坐領高薪，針對之前政務委員負責的部分，是不是又要再重來一次？新的政務委員接了之後是不是又要重開一次會議？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。去年在史哲政委的邀集下，其實我們也都有跟行政院報告我們未來成立三級機關的進度，所以後續的部分是由我們這邊成立的專案小組……"],["許委員宇甄：所以當時的政務委員史哲只主持過那麼一次，就是7月的時候召開的，是嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：應該有兩次吧？"],["林署長宏恩：沒有，在今年的5月27號有第三次的召開，以上。"],["許委員宇甄：也是由史哲政務委員召開的嗎？"],["林署長宏恩：是的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以光是他召開的會議有三次，剛剛我看你們的報告裡面寫總共召開過七次，是有包含這三次嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：沒有，跟委員報告，那七次是我們內政部跟移民署，我們針對要成立三級機關……"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以表示已經有跨部會的……"],["吳次長堂安：都有，我們都有。"],["許委員宇甄：院會去協調，為什麼到現在還沒有辦法成立這個專責機構的施行日期？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。我想是因為基本法裡面的條文內容部分，第一個我們要先確認它未來的業務職掌，所以有包括文化、教育、勞動跟衛福部的分工，有些既存業務是在他們各個部會，我們開會就是針對哪些業務是收整到由我們新成立的三級機關。"],["許委員宇甄：如果這樣講的話，其實包含政院的已經開了十次會，都還沒有討論好誰負責跟誰分工相關業務嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，其實我們自己內部的部分，未來新住民發展署我們已經大概規劃完，就是4個組12個科，然後……"],["許委員宇甄：那其他部會呢？因為我在內政委員會，我很清楚，請問其他的部會呢？"],["吳次長堂安：其他部會就是來參加我這邊的小組會議，然後來釐清業務。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問什麼時候可以施行？"],["吳次長堂安：我想這部分相關後續我們都已經有跟行政院報告。"],["許委員宇甄：什麼時候呢？因為拖了快一年了嘛，一點進展都沒有。"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，組織法……"],["許委員宇甄：連這個籌備小組感覺上都沒有太大的進展。"],["吳次長堂安：不會，其實我們進展幾乎都已經差不多了。"],["許委員宇甄：那好，差不多了嘛？"],["吳次長堂安：行政院如果一旦施行的時候……"],["許委員宇甄：預估大概什麼時候？你們已經送行政院了嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：我們都有把資料先跟行政院報告過了。"],["許委員宇甄：好，大概什麼時候呢？"],["吳次長堂安：這個可能還要問行政院。"],["許委員宇甄：行政院今天有人來嗎？還要問行政院？"],["吳次長堂安：當然。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說你們都送給行政院，但是行政院還沒決定嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：我們都有跟行政院討論，我們只有針對討論，包括新住民發展署組織法的內容。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣子，每個部會如果這樣，大家都推來推去，你主管什麼、我主管什麼、你負責什麼、我負責什麼，都不知道，最後再推給行政院，那請問這部法大概什麼時候可以正式施行？"],["吳次長堂安：委員，其實我們沒有推啦！第一個就是我們把我們分內事情都先做好了，等到施行法出來的時候……"],["許委員宇甄：好，也就是說內政部的部分沒問題了，是其他部會的問題囉？"],["吳次長堂安：其他部會的話，其實有些是業務收整跟實施而已。"],["許委員宇甄：好，聽你這樣講應該很快囉？因為內政部已經好了，其他部會都在收尾了，所以應該很快會好。"],["吳次長堂安：我想照顧新住民的權益是我們應該做的。"],["許委員宇甄：其實我們有一個對照組，我們可以看到運動部的組織法在114年1月24號才公告，但卓榮泰院長在短短數個月之間就高調宣布9月9號要正式掛牌成立運動部，籌備的進度令人十分吃驚。但是相較於新住民基本法，照理說，運動部是行政院的二級機關，它所牽扯的範圍可能更大，需要了解的事情可能更多，而且新住民專責機構不過就是三級機構，照理說，也應該比較容易設立。高層如果有意就快馬加鞭，如果沒有關注就無限拖延，我甚至懷疑，如果啦，如果我們的新住民基本法可以對大罷免加溫的話，也許早就通過了，就是因為它對大罷免沒什麼影響，甚至是負面的影響，所以到現在可能都沒通過的原因是在這裡。","另外再請教一下，行政院網站也把新住民基本法列為重要的政策，我請教一下次長，我們常常說要照顧新住民，把新住民當作我們的家人，可是現在看到好像只是把新住民當成宣傳工具，根本就沒有要落實基本法的誠意，也請內政部跟人事總處清楚地回答新住民基本法的實施日期為什麼還沒辦法決定？是誰在擋？剛剛次長已經回答過，請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。我想新住民的權益照顧是大家都有共識，事實上也沒有在擋，因為在整個審議的程序，我們必須要按照一定的程序進行，大家就按照整個程序，當司法及法制委員會將組織法通過以後，其他就一步一步來，我們一定支持。因為對新住民權益的保障，大家都有很高的共識。"],["許委員宇甄：人事長既然說沒有在擋，那就是在拖囉？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：也不是在拖，事實上很重要的就是之前在基本法第三條，所有新住民權益的業務推動還是回歸到主管機關，比如像衛福部相關部會，現在內政部在做的就是要把這些原來各個部會主管的，再把它細緻化，因為既然成立這個新的機關，我們就是要做得比以前更好。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我知道你們都非常的細緻，所以到現在已經將近快一年了，其實看起來，我覺得這種事實上已經涉及行政怠惰，所以還是希望各部會大家要共同的加快腳步，為我們的新住民爭取權益，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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陳社就是避免前往不要再去了但是在那邊"},{"start":102.724,"end":118.247,"text":"居住的人他們要撤離我們也會協助我清楚我們會給予協助但我們並不知道有多少國人或青年打工什麼時候要去或者是旅遊有沒有人要去我們沒有辦法完全掌握那個數字跟要去的地點"},{"start":118.547,"end":127.251,"text":"我們對於我們有這個所謂的登陸所以在兩百多人都是長年我們都是好沒關係部長因為你時間很短因為我是外務會的委員部長我是很善意的啦所以我只把我的問題凸顯出來我們今年打工的計畫目前是暫緩還沒有下架嘛你只是喊暫緩"},{"start":139.936,"end":152.2,"text":"因為我們的實施日跟以色列先前談好那個時間因為那個時候還沒有發生這次伊朗跟以色列的戰爭有多少人報名?零人那他們那邊有沒有人報名要來台灣?也是零"},{"start":157.762,"end":180.758,"text":"都是零好那這個部分我清楚了解但是我覺得目前官網還有留著這件事情所以我覺得後面你可以掛號就是說因為目前那邊的情勢狀況不清楚你要解釋清楚因為我不知道後面會不會有人報名我們已經告訴國人不要前往了因為網站"},{"start":183.46,"end":193.708,"text":"網..網站上只是寫還..還掛在那邊只是寫狀態但是是不是完全撤離齁因為這涉及到很複雜對這我知道但是你齁你下面可能要做更多的說明這是我要提醒你的地方齁那.."},{"start":195.99,"end":215.67,"text":"打工的這個公告從上網到撤銷總共歷時11天那你剛剛跟我講說沒有人報名那我現在關注另外第二個點就是說我們目前我們跟以色列那邊有雙邊的協定包括在經濟教育跟經貿的部分跟資安的部分其實都有很多合作的往來"},{"start":216.471,"end":227.245,"text":"那請問這34項雙邊的協議會不會因為戰事的升溫有哪些是受到影響影響後續我們是做什麼樣的考量跟補助或措施"},{"start":228.841,"end":252.48,"text":"你有沒有盤點我們都有根據現在情勢針對雙邊的交流包括訪問我們在做一些檢討包括經貿包括金融包括科技包括資安因為相對你的警示層級提高的話有一些事項就會可能會那有一些台商的往來可能因為現在的戰事暫緩有沒有這樣的狀況你有沒有充分的掌握有"},{"start":253.18,"end":266.529,"text":"因為台商在那邊其實很多時候已經定居在那裡甚至婚姻甚至有他們自己其實就像有些已經幾乎等於這類人了我都了解我都善意啦但是我只要盤點你有沒有掌握這些狀況包括兩邊生意往來的或資安的有沒有受到影響我們現在給予什麼樣的協助你有沒有去盤點出來可不可以有一份完整的報告提供給本席因為戰爭的影視的層級還有這些旅遊我們來提供"},{"start":284.241,"end":310.803,"text":"那另外就是說我們在2023年11月份的時候當時以色列受到衝擊的時候我們有給捐贈50萬美金的部分那外交部目前無論對以色列或伊朗我們鼓勵台灣人應該反國之外我們其他幾乎其實都沒有再進一步的表態或具體的表示那對於目前的狀況我們整體行政院也好外交部有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":311.724,"end":330.934,"text":"有 我們其實對像醫院或者是學校的這一些我們的這個援助雪中送炭 以色列人是非常的感謝跟感動那我們駐那邊的大使 李亞平大使幾乎現在跟以色列的來往包括政府還有國會我知道 這個我新聞都可以看得到"},{"start":332.515,"end":357.853,"text":"我們目前外交部只呼籲相關兩邊保持冷靜保持自治那外交部除了撤僑之外你還會不會有任何具體的表態跟表示除了對我們國人撤僑或幫助協助是我剛剛問的另外一部分你會用書面回我我們在加強跟以色列的交流合作有很大的提升因為這一個中東的戰爭另外就是因為伊朗背後跟中國的關係那以色列更確認跟台灣"},{"start":359.834,"end":372.437,"text":"我們不只是理念相近而且利益一致所以台語關係的提升很快速而且是範圍非常的廣這在外交上是很重要所以我們任何的一個行為啊我們都要非常注意到對台語關係的影響當然對台語關係的影響對但是對於這個整個戰兩邊的戰爭的態度具體的"},{"start":380.42,"end":400.216,"text":"我們目前沒有具體的表態我們只有呼籲兩邊冷靜但是我們無論怎麼樣對外做說明可能都影響的整體包括兩岸國際整個關係都包含在裡面我只是要問你你還會再有進一步的表態嗎我沒有要你怎麼表態但是我問你說你會不會做什麼樣具體的表態"},{"start":401.276,"end":417.061,"text":"我們目前還在密切觀察整個戰事可能的演變會不會升高 會不會是有談判我們現在先關心的是國人另外就是我們跟台籍關係的維繫至於說其他我們會滾動式的去檢討"},{"start":418.653,"end":442.909,"text":"國安會議的層級去做處理其實昨天總統也已經都有召開過國安高層會議我們都密切注意跟做好各種的因應高層會議一週幾次 國安會議一週幾次有沒有加開會議其實包括今天行政院以及其他的包括我想除了外交部其他部會都在開會因應最新情勢的變化對 因為這整體的情勢背後也都會影響兩岸的關係我要提醒 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝林恩秀委員的執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時21分）謝謝主席。部長，我好像這一屆第一次跟你答詢。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，關於我關心的議題，目前以伊的衝突持續升級，現在看起來好像沒有降溫的跡象，所以有幾件與我們相關的事情是我關注、關心的，就是以色列的旅遊警示目前仍舊沒有升級，我們目前還是停留在橙色、還沒有到紅色警戒，為什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：就是依照標準作業程序來做判斷，因為國際上也有很多國家也是列為橙色……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道啦！"],["林部長佳龍：因為各種警示的內容我們要去看，其實我們的橙色已經相當於接近紅色。"],["李委員彥秀：對啦！但是一般民眾看不懂，你知道嗎？我們看新聞的時候，如果多關注一些國際新聞，我們會覺得未來有可能會擴大，所以無論是青年打工的部分、國人旅遊的部分甚至是有經貿往來的一些臺商們，他就會看到現在已經是紅色警戒、橙色接近紅色或者是……你講橙色、紅色，你覺得已經差不多了，但是對我們來說還是有模糊的地方，你就乾脆直接講紅色，那就很清楚。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，紅色要執行的話要全面撤離耶。"],["李委員彥秀：好，那我覺得……"],["林部長佳龍：因為以色列的情形很特別，因為他們長年都是在戰爭威脅下，那他們有應變、他們有做好很好的安全措施，所以我們是……"],["李委員彥秀：那是他們的安全措施。"],["林部長佳龍：橙色就是避免前往，不要再去了！但是在那邊居住的人如果要撤離，我們也會協助。"],["李委員彥秀：我清楚，對於國人我們會給予協助，但我們並不知道有多少國人或青年打工什麼時候要去，或者是旅遊有沒有人要去，我們沒有辦法完全掌握那個數字跟要去的地點。"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們有所謂的登錄，所以大概兩百多人都是長年，我們都……其實以色列的戰爭發生不是今天，已經快兩年了。"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，部長，因為我時間很短。部長，我是很善意的，我只是把我的問題凸顯出來。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我們的青年打工計畫目前是暫緩、還沒有下架，你只是喊暫緩，還沒有下架。"],["林部長佳龍：暫緩，因為我們是初次上架，我們的實施日是跟以色列先前談好的時間，因為那個時候還沒有發生這次伊朗跟以色列的戰爭。"],["李委員彥秀：目前到底有多少人報名？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有人。"],["李委員彥秀：0人？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：那他們那邊有沒有人報名要來臺灣，也是0？"],["林部長佳龍：嗯。"],["李委員彥秀：都是0，好，這個部分我清楚了解。但是目前官網還有留著這件事情，所以我覺得後面可以括號，因為目前那邊的情勢狀況不清楚，關於這點你要解釋清楚，因為我不知道後面會不會有人報名，這是第一點。"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經告訴國人不要前往以色列。"],["李委員彥秀：因為網站上還掛在那邊，只是寫暫緩。"],["林部長佳龍：至於是不是完全撤離，因為這涉及到很複雜……"],["李委員彥秀：對，這個我知道，但是你下面可能要做更多的說明，這是我要提醒你的地方。","打工的公告從上網到撤銷總共歷時11天，既然你剛剛跟我講沒有人報名，我現在關注另外第二個點就是，我們目前跟以色列有雙邊的協定，包括在經濟、教育、經貿跟資安的部分其實都有很多合作的往來，請問這34項雙邊協議會不會因為戰事升溫有哪些受到影響？後續我們是做什麼樣的考量、補助或措施？你有沒有盤點？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有根據現在的情勢、針對雙邊的交流，包括訪問，有在做一些檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：包括經貿，包括金融，包括科技，包括資安……"],["林部長佳龍：因為警示層級提高的話，有一些事項可能會……"],["李委員彥秀：臺商的往來有沒有可能因現在戰事而暫緩？有沒有這樣的狀況？你有沒有充分掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：有，因為臺商在那邊其實……"],["李委員彥秀：我們給予什麼樣的協助？"],["林部長佳龍：已經定居在那裡，甚至不只婚姻，包括他們自己……其實有些幾乎已經等於是以色列人了……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我時間有限，你不用講那些，我都了解，我只是善意問你，想知道你有沒有盤點、掌握這些狀況？包括兩邊生意往來或資安有沒有受到影響？我們現在給予什麼樣的協助？你有沒有盤點出來？可不可以提供一份完整的報告給本席？"],["林部長佳龍：好，因為戰爭的警示層級還有旅遊……"],["李委員彥秀：這關係到臺商……"],["林部長佳龍：我們來提供。"],["李委員彥秀：好。另外，2023年10月以色列遭受攻擊，後來我們捐贈了50萬美金，但外交部目前不論對在以色列或在伊朗的臺灣人，除鼓勵他們應該返國外，其他就幾乎沒有再進一步的具體表態。對於目前的狀況，請問行政院或外交部有什麼樣的作法？"],["林部長佳龍：有。像我們對醫院或學校提供援助，雪中送炭，以色列人非常感謝與感動。所以我們駐那邊的李雅萍大使現在跟以色列的來往，包括政府還有國會……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，這些我可以從新聞看到。目前外交部只呼籲雙方保持冷靜，保持自制，請問外交部除了撤僑之外，還會不會有任何具體的表態跟表示？除了對國人撤僑或提供協助外，就我剛剛問的另外部分，請書面回我……"],["林部長佳龍：我們在加強跟以色列的交流合作……"],["李委員彥秀：對於兩邊的戰爭……"],["林部長佳龍：有很大的提升。因為這次中東戰爭之故，還有伊朗背後跟中國的關係，所以以色列更確認跟臺灣……我們不只是理念相近，且利益一致，故臺以關係的提升很快速，且範圍非常廣，這在外交上很重要。我們任何一個行為我們都要非常注意對臺以關係的影響……"],["李委員彥秀：當然要注意對臺以關係的影響，只是對兩邊戰爭的態度，我們目前並沒有具體表態，只呼籲兩邊冷靜。其實我們的對外說明可能影響到兩岸，甚至整個國際關係都包含在裡面。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：我要問你，你還會再有進一步的表態嗎？我沒有要你怎麼表態，但我想問你會不會什麼樣的具體表態？"],["林部長佳龍：目前我們仍在密切觀察整個戰事的可能演變，譬如會不會升高？會不會談判？"],["李委員彥秀：這是你的觀察……"],["林部長佳龍：我們現在最關心的是我們的國人……"],["李委員彥秀：我們的態度是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：另外就是臺以關係的維繫。至於其他的，我們會滾動式檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：以國安會議的層級去做處理？"],["林部長佳龍：其實昨天總統已經召開過國安高層會議……"],["李委員彥秀：一週幾次？"],["林部長佳龍：我們也都密切注意，做好各種因應。"],["李委員彥秀：國安會議一週幾次？有沒有加開會議？"],["林部長佳龍：像今天行政院以及其他的……我想除了外交部，其他部會都在開會因應最新情勢的變化。"],["李委員彥秀：這整體的情勢背後會影響到兩岸關係，所以我要提醒部長。謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","接下來由張啓楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a738739d303dca18f6ec914d80f272b5bb41d1dd57576f62286e040c9255cff6fc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:16:55 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健康問題跟工作問題但是確實不管是長照還有包括語言的部分也都現在新住民比較多的一些想要解決的一些難題那另外想要請教新住民對於生活照顧服務措施的需求最在意的是前三名是哪前三名三位首長知道嗎"},{"start":258.181,"end":262.046,"text":"對生活照顧服務的需求前三名"},{"start":263.288,"end":289.275,"text":"我來跟您說啦13.5%是保障就業權益12.1%是提供生活救助措施9.5%是協助子女就學這是前三名那麼另外新住民在台生活權益出現困擾的前三名是什麼我也跟三位首長說分別是44%新住民各項社福補助申請資格辦法問題"},{"start":292.096,"end":309.674,"text":"32%在台居留證申請問題23%個人財務稅務跟繼承問題其中我覺得我比較關切的是說有40%是將近一半的新住民對於各項社福申請補助的申請資格跟辦法都感到困擾我不知道三位首長"},{"start":310.795,"end":335.89,"text":"為什麼會造成這樣的一個讓新住民感到困擾的一個狀況呢能不能說明一下先請移民署好了這邊就我所知道的就是說其實我們各我們移民署各縣市都有服務站那服務站的部分就他們所謂的譬如說是在創業這個部分我們其實會協助他們寫一些專案的計畫那當然我們一些新住民"},{"start":337.791,"end":345.274,"text":"到我們國內 其實他的語文表達能力可能不是那麼的好所以我們服務站有專門的人替他們寫一些所謂的這個創業的這個計畫那至於其他證照的這個協助跟補助這個部分其實我們也會透過我們所謂的這個"},{"start":357.479,"end":375.939,"text":"這個所謂的地區的這個家庭網絡會議來協助他們比如說我們會結合我們的一些行動列車來協助他們比如說一些汽機車的一個考照一些相關的一個協助這個是我們目前有在做的非常謝謝其實為什麼把這些問題攤出來給大家看也是我今天強調的是"},{"start":380.383,"end":389.972,"text":"基本上我覺得為什麼我們需要一個新住民發展署其實現在新住民的問題真的很多啦我們有一個專職的機構全新來服務就是應該的以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時17分）主席，有請內政部。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長好。今天我們要審議新住民發展署組織法，這部法案看起來行政機關、立法委員都是贊同方向，我個人也是。但我還是要提醒，其實新住民現在還面臨非常多的一些挑戰，包括語言、資訊落差、公共資源難以取得的這些障礙，造成許多新住民在申請補助、醫療照護、子女就學等生活層面還是有蠻多的不便利，所以這個部分也是為什麼我們希望能夠成立新住民發展署，能夠好好的來照顧現在新住民的權益，我想這是今天大家齊聚一堂最重要的目的。除此之外，新住民在勞動市場上的不平等待遇，其實也經常沒有獲得充分的處理，現在很多新住民的女性是集中在照護清潔這些產業，有些產業相對薪水比較低，也缺乏升遷機會跟在職培訓的資源。更重要的是，新住民的子女在教育體系當中，現在還是存在一些包括同儕歧視、文化邊緣化以及語言資源不足的問題，這些都是現狀上還仍然存在問題。因此，如果沒有辦法有更系統性的文化教育推廣跟家庭輔導政策的話，就可能會造成弱勢的循環，對我們新住民的群體來說其實是非常不公平的。所以為什麼今天我也很贊成要一個專責的機關，能夠好好的來照應現在新住民廣泛的一些需要。","我想請教一下次長，你知道目前新住民家庭的平均月收入嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，這個我比較不清楚。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：好。根據移民署調查新住民家庭狀況，新住民家庭結構以核心家戶為主，家庭生活費用主要來源是新住民本人跟配偶的工作或營業收入，因此新住民家庭目前每月平均的收入是6萬2,150元，相較於一般家庭平均月收入是11萬7,250元，所以看起來新住民家庭薪資相對是比較弱勢一點。","另外，我想請教，根據移民署112年新住民的生活需求調查報告，新住民在臺生活困擾的前三名，我不知道你們兩個單位知道嗎？我們也請移民署上來好了。"],["林署長宏恩：我記得有就業，我可能要……"],["羅委員智強：工作問題嘛！"],["林署長宏恩：對，有就業。"],["羅委員智強：還有經濟收入的問題跟健康問題……"],["林署長宏恩：長照啦，長照、就業還有一個是語言，長照、就業、語言是三個最大主要的差異。"],["羅委員智強：我看你們112年資料顯示是經濟問題、健康問題跟工作問題，但是確實不管是長照，還有包括語言的部分，也都是現在新住民比較多想要解決的一些難題啦！"],["林署長宏恩：是。"],["羅委員智強：另外，想要請教新住民對於生活照顧服務措施的需求，最在意的前三名是哪些，三位首長知道嗎？對生活照顧服務的需求前三名？我來跟您說，13.5%是保障就業權益；12.1%是提供生活救助措施；9.5%是協助子女就學，這是前三名。接著，新住民在臺生活權益出現困擾的前三名是什麼？我也跟三位首長說，分別是44%新住民各項社福補助申請資格辦法問題；32%在臺居留證申請問題；23%個人財務、稅務跟繼承問題，其中我比較關切就是有40%、將近一半的新住民，對於各項社福補助的申請資格跟辦法都感到困擾，三位首長是否了解為什麼新住民會有讓他們覺得困擾的狀況呢？能不能說明一下？先請移民署好了。"],["林署長宏恩：就我所知道的，我們移民署各縣市都有服務站，服務站就他們譬如在創業這個部分，我們其實會協助他們寫一些專案的計畫。當然，我們一些新住民剛到我們國內，其實他的語文表達能力可能不是那麼的好，所以我們服務站有專門的人替他們寫一些所謂創業的計畫。至於其他證照的協助跟補助部分，其實我們也會透過所謂的地區家庭網絡會議來協助他們。我們會結合一些行動列車來協助他們，譬如說汽機車的考照，或一些相關的協助，這個是我們目前有在做的。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝，為什麼把這些問題攤出來給大家看？也是我今天強調的，我覺得為什麼我們需要一個新住民發展署？其實現在新住民問題真的很多啦，我們有一個專責機關全心來服務就是應該的，以上，謝謝。"],["林署長宏恩：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們下一位請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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國立國際醫療台灣發展的國際醫療產業我們國家一直在發展對嘛 支持這個產業發展國際醫療因為台灣的醫療水準醫療產業相當的好除了現在我們有台積電希望下一個國際醫療可以變成我們一個很好的這個產業對吧"},{"start":28.787,"end":36.414,"text":"請問,境外人士來這邊做這些國際醫療,比如說醫美啊,境外人士,外國人啊,境外人士,可以使用健保嗎?不行。不行嘛,對不對?是不是自費?自費。所以這樣會掏空健保嗎?"},{"start":48.363,"end":71.693,"text":"如果以單純來做醫美對啊就做這些國際醫療當然就是因為他們如果是國外的人嘛對就國外我說就國外來這邊做一些國際醫療啦他沒有我們的健保沒有健保沒有健保就是國外的人嘛日本人啊韓國人啊就是國外的人嘛都是國外對境外人士啊就外國不管哪裡反正沒有健保的人啊沒有健保沒有健保不能用健保嘛對不對因為國際醫療是這樣而且要自費對不對是這個產業我們也很鼓勵嘛一直在推嘛是那這樣會掏空健保嗎"},{"start":78.243,"end":102.71,"text":"如果只有在這個國際外國人到這邊做智慧的項目這幾個山跟健保是沒有什麼關係這樣子沒有啦 沒有關係喔跟那個健保的 不會掏空健保跟醫療量沒有關係喔會影響健保就是國人這醫美然後如果產生副作用以後那個是國人嘛 那是國人的問題我們說的是國際醫療的部分啦好 謝謝 謝謝部長喔好 那可以回座了 這個我請那個"},{"start":108.2,"end":111.623,"text":"我今天要請教您是因為有一個霸團或者是律師賴中強說他最近一直說出一些很奇怪的話雖然他是法律專業但他也不是醫療產業也不是這個軍事專業他說什麼我們主張做國際醫療就會掏空台灣的健保量能掏空台灣健保"},{"start":137.718,"end":166.517,"text":"這個是雞心叵測 非常差第二個 他又說 來 這個 這一個他又說兩岸人民關係條例第29條修正案企圖將禁限制水域去主權化將台海關係定為內戰關係形成台灣問題是中國內政問題的法律框架這是陳永康委員提出來那個我現在請問你這個兩岸條例這個29條修法重點這你應該知道我們禁限制水域是由哪邊公告啊"},{"start":167.737,"end":187.822,"text":"我們金縣制水域現在都是國防部公告依照聯合條例第29現在是國防部公告是好那我想請問那現在我們這個金縣制水域就是我們現在金門以金門地區來講金縣制水域周遭的水域是你們是海軍國防部的海軍艦艇來巡防還是由海巡署你們來巡防"},{"start":188.902,"end":201.887,"text":"那個地方因為太敏感太近我平時上都進行水域都4000到6000公尺那我也非常清楚地理非常接近所以目前執法在近現實水域內都是海巡人員在執法馬祖金門包括東定等等都是中國"},{"start":208.129,"end":227.123,"text":"自己宣稱所謂的領海基線 領海範圍內嘛因為它很近嘛 我們太近了嘛我要重申是中國宣稱所謂的領海基線 因為它等一下會先劃過來基本馬祖就在中國劃的那個領海範圍內嘛所以我們那時候中華民國劃一個那個領海基線的時候劃第一批領海基線的時候有沒有把我們基門劃進去"},{"start":228.564,"end":249.779,"text":"金門的話因為臨海基線我們現在劃的現在都是近線之水域就沒有劃沒有劃沒有劃金門有沒有被中華民國劃進去我們中華民國也要把我們劃進去因為離島地形特殊沒有嘛 特殊嘛 對不對因為太近嘛 對不對基本上臨海基線一劃就跟東沙一樣東沙本島一樣劃臨海基線我們12海里就臨海"},{"start":250.76,"end":279.633,"text":"所以這個陳永康委員修這個29條的這個兩岸條例是因為現在的確執法就是這個是執法就是海巡署在執法吧不是國軍執法因為環境特殊吧也避免太近啊萬一什麼衝突啊是因為兩岸關係特殊所以畫設淨水線涉及到國防戰略國家安全跟地區情勢等等我知道我想請問你來我想請問你這一點是所以"},{"start":280.513,"end":283.877,"text":"所以如果 我想請問法務部 法務部上來一下我先請問你 禁限制水域這個東西是不是國際海洋法裡面的我先請問你 賴中強說 將會把金門大變成中國的內海化國際海洋公約內海這種名詞嗎"},{"start":299.468,"end":323.573,"text":"有 寧海跟昨天報告寧海可以自然基線跟直線基線中國大陸採直線基線 不管怎樣寧海基線耗完之後裡面是內水12海浬是寧海那有內海嗎 有內水我知道內國水域啊 沒有內海他說我們把它變內海 是內水嘛專有名詞怎麼可以說是內海呢學法律的律師什麼都不懂胡說八道我請問法務部來"},{"start":326.124,"end":353.528,"text":"金縣治水你剛剛有聽到金門因為這個環境特殊所以有劃了金縣治水域 國防部劃了一個金縣治水域然後金門也沒有被中華民國劃入在臨海基線裡頭因為我們就是離大陸太近嘛特殊原因沒有辦法劃嘛但是大陸劃的裡頭 中國大陸劃的是有把我們劃進去這是他劃的啦好 那特殊 所以我們現在是海巡在守嘛海巡在守 沒有國防部在守因為怕說萬一有什麼衝突 海軍第一級啊擔心這很多衝突啦所以現在是海巡在幫我們顧海岸"},{"start":354.368,"end":369.715,"text":"還要顧那個禁限制水域這個事實上就是這樣子那請問啊這個如果禁限制水域這個東西喔這個由國防部改為海委會來公告那這個是不是請問這個國防部是不是代表國家主權國防部我們政府機關都是代表國家去行使我們的公權利沒錯嘛海巡署算不算"},{"start":382.038,"end":390.276,"text":"海巡署有比國安部高 海委會啦應該說海委會啦海委會高比國安部稅寒國安部代表國家主權海委會就不代表國家主權嗎"},{"start":391.957,"end":414.878,"text":"都是屬於行政院的一部分對嘛都是行政院都是我們國家的中央機關嘛這個沒有問題嘛所以就法律上來講為什麼有律師會說把限制或禁止水域把國安部公告的部分公告啦改為現在本來就是已經是海巡在管了啦實際上海巡在管改為什麼海委會來公告就會變成是我們去主權化呢"},{"start":416.229,"end":430.105,"text":"為什麼這樣會被人去阻結案你可以解釋一下嗎他的這個律師公開開記者會這樣講喔他說公告單位本來是國防部變成海巡的話為什麼這樣被人去阻結案你們海巡組海委會不是國家主權的象徵喔委員可以補充報告嗎他為什麼這樣講啊"},{"start":431.246,"end":437.491,"text":"包委員 不管律師怎麼講 我們政府機關立場是這樣你們政府機關立場沒有問題 誰要換我都沒有問題 重點不在這裡我的意思是在評論這件事情說 是不是他的評論是正確的就像他說國際醫療 來做國際醫療就會把我們的健保掏空 明明那些人都要付費"},{"start":450.62,"end":463.03,"text":"都要花錢耶我們意思是說我們不僅司法考量當然還有國防戰略跟國家安全考量這個都是可以考慮但是這等於是說如果有你們來公告就去主權嗎我問的是這個問題有誰來公告這都可以考慮"},{"start":467.814,"end":488.848,"text":"但是會因為這樣而變得去嘴因為今天是海巡在管那現在海巡不要管叫國防部回來管因為實際上海巡沒有錯但是他整個牽涉層面國安跟國防戰略考量等等包括地區穩定等等所以還是由國防部會比較恰當沒問題嘛我說誰公告這都不是重點嘛現在是你們在管嘛所以你們在管就不是捍衛國家主權"},{"start":491.109,"end":498.255,"text":"我們絕對絕對捍衛國家主權 是嘛所以你們也是捍衛國家主權嘛 是那是因為 帶中強胡說八道來 那請問另外一條來 我先發布兩岸人民關係條例第八十條之一規範規範什麼你知道嗎我唸給你聽一下大陸的這個傳播未經許可進入台灣地區台灣地區就是金門台灣地區 台澎金限制或禁限制水域處心臺壁的划船一千萬三十萬"},{"start":516.631,"end":541.63,"text":"這個機關訂的是哪一個機關喔?我該跟你講了你知道這條嗎?應該是由主管機關來的海巡啦 主管機關那如果照這樣講這個處罰應該要給國防部訂啊為什麼要給海委會訂?跨社都不能給海委會處罰為什麼要給那個?我問一下法律觀念啦在兩岸條例部分有關驅離越界路傳的話我來問法務部好不好你都知道我知道 我來問法務部因為這是法律問題啦"},{"start":543.151,"end":570.492,"text":"實際就是你們在做嘛我知道我是不知道為什麼這樣跟主權會有關係會把什麼會矮化我們的主權啊然後也沒有內海這種詞啊要說什麼這是什麼什麼內海內水就內水不懂為什麼這樣會矮化主權喔這怎麼解釋成矮化主權中央行政機關都是捍衛主權為出發點來去解釋都是代表國家的主權嘛齁有沒有問題海委會就是矮化主權是嗎"},{"start":573.323,"end":587.389,"text":"跟委員報告說兩岸條例很多主管機關去年就入船的話主管機關明定是我們海委會海巡署但是我剛才報告過了整個化設淨線水域要牽涉到方方面面的考量沒問題 有別的考量沒有問題但是這跟主權有什麼關係"},{"start":588.65,"end":604.064,"text":"沒有關係嘛 對不對來 副主長我來問一個 海巡署的一個問題這個齁 反正我在這裡釐清啦就有一些所謂什麼金明年耐律師啊什麼都不懂 軍事也不懂醫療也不懂 就胡說八道什麼都是什麼矮化主權 只是為了要罷免而已來"},{"start":605.886,"end":628.585,"text":"這個破壞國人的這個破壞產業的發展像醫療產業發展很重要這樣子誤導老百姓來那個海巡署我要請問啦副市長這個艦對不起再一分鐘艦隊君子聯執行海上查緝主角和海域衝突的高抗性情務風險很高嘛高的案情那至於設計你們現在沒有24小時待命或是已領海情加急你們把它排除當作戰鬥加急對象對不對是"},{"start":630.567,"end":633.649,"text":"我們在108年跟人種有爭取過因為以前都是養種局變艦隊分屬因為你們裡面有警職人員 直八倍四警職人員可以加班可以申請補休 軍職卻沒有辦法 這樣公平嗎"},{"start":648.199,"end":670.132,"text":"因為我們有規定各類人員要依照各自的人事法令來辦理軍職就沒有生理只有夜點會我知道所以我的意思是說因為我們最近不是修軍的話有戰鬥家旗可以加所以像在海巡裡頭的軍職人員他沒有而且你們還要求你們是不是有要求軍職人員簽署不清明戰鬥家旗的切結書有要求嗎"},{"start":671.032,"end":687.582,"text":"那個事讓他知道你過來依規定他過來艦隊分屬沒辦法支領海巡部隊你們可以行政程序法第70條行政機關不得已企業或其他方式限制人民依法得享之潛力喔沒有沒有你可以隨便叫人家簽這個我們等於是調查意願調查所以這個沒有強制力就對了沒有沒有沒有沒有而且"},{"start":690.343,"end":697.068,"text":"軍人待遇條例通過之後他以後會比我們的人員高考比方上位出任一個月多一萬七左右"},{"start":720.483,"end":747.531,"text":"請你們禁止,有一法務在這裡不可以用竊竊術方式剝奪老百姓尤其你們的人員申請補助的權利不要再簽這種東西,違法行為不要再簽這種東西,而且要追溯補償,回復應有權利一個月內給我答案可以嗎?是一個月內可以嗎?一定可以好,謝謝副處長好,謝謝陳立堅委員的諮詢我們現在休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時8分）先請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，你鼓不鼓勵臺灣發展國際醫療產業？"],["邱部長泰源：我們國家一直在發展。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛？支持國際醫療的產業發展。"],["邱部長泰源：國際醫療，因為臺灣的醫療水準、醫療產業相當好。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在我們除了有台積電，也希望國際醫療可以變成我們下一個很好的產業，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問境外人士來這邊做這些國際醫療，比如說醫美這些，外國人、境外人士可以使用健保嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不行。"],["陳委員玉珍：不行嘛，對不對？是不是自費？"],["邱部長泰源：對，自費。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這樣會掏空健保嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果單純來做醫美……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，做這些國際醫療。"],["邱部長泰源：如果是國外的人……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就國外的人來這邊做一些國際醫療啦！"],["邱部長泰源：他沒有我們的健保……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有健保，就是國外的人嘛！日本人、韓國人……"],["邱部長泰源：就是國外的人嘛？"],["陳委員玉珍：對，境外人士，就外國，不管哪裡，反正是沒有健保的人，他們不能用健保嘛，對不對？因為國際醫療是這樣，而且要自費，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個產業我們也很鼓勵，一直在推嘛！這樣會掏空健保嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果只有在國際……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，國際醫療。"],["邱部長泰源：外國人到這邊做自費的項目……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，外國人，包括大陸也是，大陸也是境外人士。"],["邱部長泰源：這基本上跟健保是沒有什麼關係。"],["陳委員玉珍：是沒有關係，不會掏空健保，跟醫療量能沒有關係，好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：會掏空、會影響健保，就是國人做醫美，然後如果產生副作用之後，就變成健保的給付。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那個是國人的問題，我們現在是談國際醫療的部分，好，謝謝部長，可以回座了。","接著我請海巡署。"],["主席：請海巡署副署長。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：副署長，我今天要請教您是因為有一個罷團，應該也是罷團或者是……律師賴中強最近一直說出一些很奇怪的話，雖然他是法律專業，但他也不是醫療產業，也不是軍事專業，他說我們主張做國際醫療就會掏空臺灣的健保量能，這個是居心叵測，非常差。第二個，他又說兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條修正案，企圖將禁限制水域去主權化，將臺海關係定位內戰關係，形成臺灣問題是中國內政問題的法律框架。這是陳永康委員提出來的那個。我想請問你，兩岸條例第二十九條的修法重點你應該知道，我們禁限制水域是由哪邊公告？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們禁限制水域現在都是由國防部公告，依照兩岸條例第二十九條……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在是由國防部公告？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問，現在我們的禁限制水域，以金門地區來講，周遭的水域是由國防部海軍艦艇來巡防，還是由海巡署來巡防？"],["謝副署長慶欽：那個地方因為太敏感、太近，原則上禁限制水域都是4,000到6,000公尺……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員非常清楚，那地理非常接近，所以目前在禁限制水域內的都是海巡人員在執法。"],["陳委員玉珍：都是海巡在巡防嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員再報告，馬祖、金門包括東碇等等都是中國自己宣稱所謂的領海基線以內……"],["陳委員玉珍：領海範圍內嘛！因為那很近，我們太近了嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：我要重申，是中國宣稱所謂的……"],["陳委員玉珍：宣稱的，我知道，因為它那條線劃過來，金門、馬祖就在中國劃的領海範圍內。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，他們所謂的內水。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以中華民國劃領海基線的時候，劃第一批領海基線時有沒有把金門劃進去？"],["謝副署長慶欽：金門的話，因為領海基線，我們現在劃的禁限制水域……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道有禁限制水域，有沒有劃領海？"],["謝副署長慶欽：沒有劃。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有劃嘛！金門有沒有被中華民國劃進去？中華民國有沒有把金門劃進中華民國的領海？"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為離島地形特殊。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有嘛！特殊嘛，對不對？因為太近，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：基本上領海基線一劃就跟東沙本島一樣，劃領海基線，我們的12浬就是領海，24浬是臨接區。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以陳永康委員修兩岸條例第二十九條，是因為現在的確就是海巡署在執法，不是國軍執法，因為環境特殊，也避免太近，萬一有什麼衝突，第一擊啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，因為兩岸關係特殊，所以劃設禁限制水域線涉及到國防戰略、國家安全及地區情勢等等……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。","我想請問法務部，請法務部上來一下。我想請問你，禁限制水域是不是國際海洋法裡面的……我先請問你，賴中強說將會把金門變成中國的內海化，國際海洋公約有內海這種名詞嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：內海？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟陳委員報告，領海跟自然基線跟直線基線，中國大陸採直線基線，不管怎麼樣……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。"],["謝副署長慶欽：領海基線劃完之後，裡面是內水……"],["陳委員玉珍：內水？"],["謝副署長慶欽：12浬是領海。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那有內海嗎？有內水我知道，內國的水域。"],["謝副署長慶欽：沒有內海。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有內海嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：他說我們把它變成內海，是內水，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，專有名詞是內水。"],["陳委員玉珍：專有名詞怎麼可以說是內海呢？學法律的律師什麼都不懂，胡說八道！","我請問法務部，關於禁限制水域，你剛剛有聽到，金門因為環境特殊，所以國防部有劃了禁限制水域，然後金門也沒有被中華民國劃入在領海基線裡頭，因為就是離大陸太近，特殊原因沒有辦法劃，但是中國大陸劃的是有把金門劃進去，這是它劃的。因為特殊，所以現在是海巡在守，沒有國防部在守，因為怕萬一有什麼衝突，海軍、第一擊，擔心這個很多衝突，所以現在是海巡在幫我們顧海岸還有顧禁限制水域，這個事實上就是這樣子。如果禁限制水域由國防部改為海委會來公告，請問國防部是不是代表國家主權？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：我們政府機關都是代表國家去行使我們的公權力。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯嘛！海巡署算不算？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：大家都是政府機關，一起守衛臺灣。"],["陳委員玉珍：是嘛！海委會有比國防部還小嗎？國防部代表國家主權，海委會就不代表國家主權嗎？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：都是屬於行政院的一部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！都是行政院，都是我們國家的中央機關，這個沒有問題。就法律上來講，現在本來就已經是海巡在管了，實際上海巡在管，為什麼有律師會說限制或禁止水域從國防部公告的部分改為由海委會來公告就會變成是我們去主權化呢？為什麼這樣會變成去主權化，你可以解釋一下嗎？這個律師公開開記者會這樣講喔！他說公告單位本來是國防部變成海巡的話，為什麼這樣變去主權化？海委會不是國家主權的象徵？"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員，我可以補充報告嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：他為什麼這樣講？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，不管律師怎麼講，我們政府機關的立場是這樣，因為現在實際上……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們政府機關的立場沒有問題，誰要劃我都沒有問題，重點不在這，我的意思是在評論這件事情，他的評論是不是正確的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：就像他說來做國際醫療就會把我們的健保掏空，明明那些人都要付費、都要花錢耶！"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我的意思是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：又沒有叫他們用我們的健保。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們不僅有執法的考量，當然還有國防戰略跟國家安全的考量，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，這個都是可以考慮的，但如果由你們來公告就去主權化嗎？我問的是這個問題，由誰來公告都可以討論，但是會因為這樣而變成去主權化嗎？因為目前是海巡在管，不然就請海巡不要管，叫國防部回來管嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：實際上是海巡沒有錯，但是它整個牽涉的層面還有國安、國防戰略、地區穩定等等的考量，所以還是由國防部會比較恰當。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒問題嘛！我說由誰公告都不是重點，現在是你們在管，所以你們在管就不是捍衛國家主權？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們絕對全力捍衛國家主權。"],["陳委員玉珍：是嘛！你們也是捍衛國家主權嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，但是因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：賴中強胡說八道！","另外一題我請問法務部，兩岸人民關係條例第八十條之一規範什麼你知道嗎？我唸給你聽一下，大陸船舶未經許可進入臺灣地區限制或禁止水域，臺灣地區就是指臺、澎、金、馬，處新臺幣三十萬以上一千萬以下的罰鍰，這個處罰是由哪一個機關訂定的？我來跟你講，你知道這一條嗎？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：應該是由主管機關來訂定。"],["陳委員玉珍：主管機關是海巡啦！如果照這樣講，這個處罰應該要給國防部訂定啊！為什麼要給海委會訂定？劃設都不能給海委會，處罰為什麼要給海委會？我問一下法律觀念啦！"],["謝副署長慶欽：在兩岸條例的部分，有關驅離越界陸船的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：我要問法務部，好不好？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你都知道，我要問法務部，因為這是法律問題，我知道實際就是你們在做，我只是不知道為什麼這樣跟主權會有關係，會矮化我們的主權？然後也沒有內海這種詞，又說這是什麼內海，內水就內水，這都不懂，為什麼這樣會矮化主權？法務部，這怎麼解釋成矮化主權？"],["劉主任檢察官怡婷：中央行政機關都是以捍衛主權為出發點來做解釋。"],["陳委員玉珍：都是代表國家的主權嘛，有沒有問題？海委會就是矮化主權嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，兩岸條例有很多主管機關，驅離越界陸船的話，主管機關明定是海委會海巡署，但是我剛才報告過了，整個劃設禁限制水域要牽涉到方方面面的考量，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒問題，有別的考量沒有問題，但是這跟主權有什麼關係？沒有關係嘛，對不對？副署長，我來問一個海巡署的問題，反正我在這裡釐清，有一些所謂的……賴律師什麼都不懂，軍事也不懂、醫療也不懂，就胡說八道，什麼都是矮化主權，只是為了要罷免而已，破壞產業的發展，像醫療產業發展很重要，這樣子來誤導老百姓。","我想請問海巡署副署長，艦隊軍職人員執行海上查緝、阻絕與海域衝突等高對抗性勤務，風險很高，高於一般岸勤，但制度設計部分，你們現在以沒有24小時待命或已領海勤加給為由，把他們排除戰鬥加給對象，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這樣子合理嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這個我們當然會全力爭取，我們在108年有跟人總爭取過……"],["陳委員玉珍：有爭取過？"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為艦隊分署以前都是……洋總局變艦隊分署，他們認為……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，因為你們裡面有警職人員嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：「執8備4」嘛！也有軍職人員，警職人員加班可以申請補休，軍職卻沒有辦法，這樣公平嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為我們有規定，各類人員依照各自的人事法令來辦理，軍職只有夜點費，沒有加班費。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，所以我的意思是，因為我們最近不是修……"],["謝副署長慶欽：軍人待遇條例。"],["陳委員玉珍：有戰鬥加給可以加嘛，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以像在海巡裡頭的軍職人員是沒有，而且你們是不是有要求軍職人員簽署不請領戰鬥加給的切結書？有要求嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，那個是讓他知道，依規定他過來艦隊分署沒辦法支領海巡部隊的……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們可以……"],["謝副署長慶欽：讓他知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：欸，行政程序法第七十條規定，行政機關不得以契約或其他方式限制人民依法得享之權利喔……"],["謝副署長慶欽：沒有、沒有，我們是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你可以隨便叫人家簽這個嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們等於是調查意願啦，你要知道……"],["陳委員玉珍：調查，所以這個沒有強制力就對了？"],["謝副署長慶欽：沒有，而且軍人待遇條例通過之後，他以後會比我們高考的人員，比方說少尉出任，一個月多一萬七左右。"],["陳委員玉珍：副署長，最後我再講一下三件事情：第一個，請你釐清戰鬥加給的適用標準，用實際的勤務來認定適用對象，如果你說什麼考試院還是銓敘部要……"],["謝副署長慶欽：人總，我們會全力爭取，我們會全力爭取。"],["陳委員玉珍：人總，我們會幫你，我們一起來開會。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：不要用形式來排除艦隊的軍職人員。第二個，沒有辦法請領加班費這個不合理的制度，請你們要檢討。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：第三個，請你們禁止，因為法務部在這裡喔，不可以用切結書的方式剝奪老百姓……"],["謝副署長慶欽：不會，絕對不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：尤其你們的人員申請補助的權利，不要再簽這種東西，違法的行為……"],["謝副署長慶欽：這個都是我們的同仁……"],["陳委員玉珍：不要再簽這種東西，而且要追溯補償回復應有的權利。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們會爭取同仁應有的權利。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個月內給我答案，可以嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是、是。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個月內可以嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：一定可以。是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝副署長。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時31分）"],["主席：報告委員會，我們現在繼續開會。","有請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},{"id":"162723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162723","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73636c7f9fa13cc01feab13042bab466e31d1dd57576f62286e00fe85888996f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:56:57 - 11:08:40","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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我說你知道黑素有可能是這個的幾倍你知道嗎那你知道黑素比這個都多很多所說的數目不曉得吳司長有沒有誰可以回應我"},{"start":205.339,"end":213.507,"text":"謝謝李委員的關心那過去移送裁法的案件有一些事還沒有裁法還在行政調查當中你覺得黑數是現在查緝到的可能的幾倍所以比現在查緝到的更多"},{"start":226.533,"end":240.228,"text":"有沒有可能應該當然查緝到的跟沒有查緝到的當然都有啦部長你都不敢承認我就直接告訴你黑數恐怕是你們查緝到的數十倍以上好來我要以網路販售為例"},{"start":243.872,"end":271.503,"text":"我們現在網路上根本就不能賣菸嘛你們很清楚嘛無論是菸品或電子菸都是依法都是全面禁止的但是我們光從Google上面就可以輕易找到三家在網路上販賣加熱菸或電子菸或者我們年輕人現在從IG也好臉書也好或者有一些LINE的社群都會告訴大家你要抽電子菸你要去哪裡買"},{"start":272.984,"end":292.497,"text":"所以就是說我們現在國建署對外只是蝦皮啦露天啦或者跟有一些平台業者合作獲得出口的控制但是買這些私菸的狀況事實上有太多的管道都不再列入你們現在茶企的範圍之內所以"},{"start":294.878,"end":304.201,"text":"今天為什麼張偉排了這個專報就是對於目前茶季失焉的部分對於你們目前所掌握到的管道事實上大家是不滿意的這也凸顯出財政部的憂慮事實上是沒有錯的"},{"start":312.443,"end":322.612,"text":"所以我覺得在茶器的部分我還是要提醒邱部長我們還是有精進的功能你不可以只看蝦皮露天因為現在很多人賴群組有在抽這個電子菸他們自己有跟你講到哪裡去買所以目前我看到的"},{"start":328.837,"end":355.632,"text":"其實用心一點大家都知道 翠上面也有人在糾團在餵啦所以我覺得這個是你要去注意的地方但是部長 邱部長你可以站旁邊 來 莊部長但是我覺得你經濟的地方還有一些地方可以去做處理就是說翠上面我有看到網路在分享譬如說小港機場有人講說我們現在拖運的行李都會照S光你多帶菸大家都看得到 你帶什麼微鏡瓶都看得到"},{"start":356.252,"end":375.988,"text":"但是手提的就沒有經過X光機嘛就是用目測看你有沒有多帶多買嘛但是往往我就看到TRE上面有一個漏洞喔有人就是我先手提用拿的當我經過因為我們現在有那個驗那個豬肉的那個豬瘟非洲豬瘟嘛但非洲豬瘟不管菸品嘛部長你知道嘛你帶十條菸你帶二十條電子菸他沒有看嘛因為他只看有沒有帶豬肉嘛"},{"start":385.995,"end":389.597,"text":"他拿完通過那個X光機查有沒有豬瘟的時候他就走到廁所去那他就把他所買的電子菸全部都塞到T0的行李裡面你就沒看到嘛所以我只講這個案例給你事實上查緝私菸不是只有衛福部的責任事實上財政部有很多可以精進的作為"},{"start":408.587,"end":423.679,"text":"所以這是我今天在提醒你們的地方好 我這個議題到此結束來 部長你們都可以請邱部長你可以請回 莊部長你可以留下來部長你要再留下來對不起 我還有第二個議題好 那個你們其他可以請回就是說上個月我有質詢那個不印證的議題就是說如何對於不印證的那個補助的扣除額的部分現在你們本來是要求前三年要會計制度完備現在改成前一年就好了看起來是放寬了"},{"start":438.01,"end":455.733,"text":"但是我要提醒的是我們做這件事情當時賴慧雯是召委我們都同意說事實上我們政府做這件事情我們扣除的目的是要維持基本生活的必要支出還有我們政府認為這件事情應該是要給予扣除跟"},{"start":457.146,"end":472.608,"text":"補助的所以那個扣除而改成一年這個事情跟不孕症夫妻事實上是沒有足夠原因這是兩件事情我覺得應該把重心放在如何讓診所採取何種報稅的方式"},{"start":473.809,"end":477.652,"text":"就是不應該把它放在你是哪一種報稅方式而是應該確認民眾確實他因為做不孕症的這個醫療他可以得到補助這個核心問題應該是在這邊而不是說你報稅制度完被改成三年改成兩年我覺得這件事情我仍舊不認同"},{"start":493.986,"end":521.218,"text":"我希望你可以回去考慮那第二點就是說我覺得你們目前無論是次費補助或健保補助你有四種方式無論是查證核實或書面審查或前三年的這個平均損益或按費用的費率來做申報這是屬於健保診所的部分但是事實上對於現在次費的部分你要求說你一定要用按費用率來去做申報"},{"start":522.538,"end":532.093,"text":"不管是健保有沒有健保或自費我覺得你不應該有兩套制度才來去叫做會計制度的完備我覺得這個對於我們對於政府獎勵就是說"},{"start":537.922,"end":563.419,"text":"補助 就是你可以做不印證就扣除了這件事情我覺得應該是回到一些基本包括大法官701號也有解釋說對於醫療費用支出 稅增機關應該本於職權審核至於用哪一種審核方式不應該增加行政稽查的成本否則用特定的申報方式是有違反平等原則"},{"start":564.66,"end":584.22,"text":"這是大法官701號的解釋我要提醒您所以不管是健保或者是自費我覺得應該都要用便民的方式來去做處理也不應該違反平等原則最後我要請邱部長衛福部有要求你就是說對於做不孕症的部分我們本來要求說"},{"start":586.122,"end":611.196,"text":"財政部有建議衛福部說應該要會計制度的完備你才可以申請到那個不孕症的補助對不對他有要求這件事情嗎我剛剛講的那個是扣除額的部分那我是講人工生殖的補助這部分我們補助的全部免稅對不起你再講一次如果由國健署補助的"},{"start":612.182,"end":634.68,"text":"對啦 事實上我覺得跟委員報告我支持衛福部只要是政府補救的費用多免納入報稅免稅這是兩件事我們現在對但是現在衛福財政部要求說應該會計制度完備才可以你到醫院才可以領到那個人工生殖補助我剛剛這是兩件事情剛剛我講的是"},{"start":635.521,"end":663.295,"text":"扣除額 在你的每年要繳的稅的扣除額我現在講的是國建署現在目前那個補助的要件的修正跟調整喔所以我絕對支持衛福部現在不用去管會計制度有沒有完備 你只要有做我就給你補助 這個是我們政府給予補助的目的所以財政部這樣是 你不要去介入他那麼多 因為"},{"start":664.315,"end":683.604,"text":"我們政府目的是不是要補助給這些年輕人你不認證的困難我就是給你補助讓你去做有沒有自費或有沒有健保這都不是當時選擇這些診所條件他只要選擇說我覺得這個醫生好做有機會成功風評不錯我就要去這家醫院做他馬去管說請問你這家醫院有沒有會計制度完備"},{"start":684.804,"end":688.668,"text":"我覺得這個是不對的所以我絕對支持衛福部的做法"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時56分）我請財政部部長跟邱部長。"],["主席：兩位部長請。"],["李委員彥秀：感謝邱部長，每一次我們委員會討論重要的議題你都親自來，代表你對本委員會的重視，也代表你對私菸查緝的重視。"],["邱部長泰源：不敢當。"],["李委員彥秀：在5月20號針對私菸查緝的部分，財政部發文給五大菸商，就是我們目前加熱菸的違法達到96萬包，跟113年同期相比增加了44萬包，所以財政部就發文問菸商，現在有這麼多私菸，我們到底應該要怎麼做？但是我們大家都知道，事實上，私菸管理查緝的主要責任是在衛福部，我覺得這個作法當然可以，財政部莊部長的作法當然沒錯，但是我們有橫向聯繫的部門啊！怎麼沒有在第一時間先找衛福部商量？或者同時找衛福部大家一起來？這是第一個，我覺得你們是不是感情不夠好？照道理說，莊部長，你應該先找邱部長，然後大家一起找，看有關單位是誰要來，海關、檢察、警察，甚至菸商一起來，直接發文給他。在我看來，你們兩個感情是不好。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們機關之間的聯繫都很通暢，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：你不用解釋，因為我時間有限，我今天問題很多。但是5月27日衛福部就發了一個「電子煙查緝平臺」，對於後續未來各部會怎麼從源頭做管理去做一些討論，相較之下，這也凸顯出……包括衛福部國健署6月17日就在媒體發出聲明，對於目前裁罰的數目是非常滿意的。不只裁罰的數量高，但是同時我覺得財政部也沒有錯，因為我們違法的數量也高，裁罰的數量高與違法數量高是兩件不一樣的事情，代表違反的人特別多。這個也是我要提醒衛福部的地方，違規的人多，當然你裁罰的數量也高，相對地不斷都在提高，所以我覺得這並不代表財政部在杞人憂天。但是邱部長，憑良心講，我能夠理解財政部的擔心，因為我看到國健署提供的數據，從今年1月到5月，全國查獲電子煙的數量只有158件，加熱菸總共有1,445件，網路平臺業者遭裁罰的只有7件。對於這個數據，邱部長，我現在說的數字你應該都很清楚，但是你們知道底下的黑數是這個的幾倍嗎？你有聽過嗎？邱部長，你有沒有聽過？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們從供應面、販售面、使用面其實都是結合各部會在……"],["李委員彥秀：對啦！部長，我說你知道黑數有可能是這個的幾倍，你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個剛剛委員……"],["李委員彥秀：好，那你知道黑數比這個都多很多？"],["邱部長泰源：委員所說的數目，不曉得吳署長有沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：誰可以回應我？"],["吳署長昭軍：謝謝李委員的垂詢……"],["李委員彥秀：簡單就好了，因為我今天議題很多。"],["吳署長昭軍：我想是這樣子，過去移送裁罰的案件……"],["李委員彥秀：你只要跟我講，黑數是不是比你們查緝的更多？"],["吳署長昭軍：有一些是還沒有裁罰，還在行政調查當中。"],["李委員彥秀：這麼久了，你們裁這麼久還沒……來，莊部長，你覺得黑數可能是現在查緝到的幾倍？是不是比現在查緝到的更多？有沒有可能？"],["邱部長泰源：應該……當然查緝到的跟沒有查緝到的當然都有啦！"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你都不敢承認，我就直接告訴你，黑數恐怕是你們查緝到的數十倍以上。我以網路販售為例，現在網路上根本就不能賣菸嘛，你們很清楚，無論是菸品或電子煙依法都是全面禁止的，但是我們光從Google上面就可以輕易找到3家，在網路上販賣加熱菸或電子煙，或者我們年輕人現在從IG也好、臉書也好，或者有一些LINE的社群都會告訴大家要抽電子煙可以去哪裡買，所以現在國健署對外只是跟蝦皮、露天，或者跟有一些平臺業者合作，獲得初步的控制，但是買這些私菸的狀況，事實上有太多的管道都不列入你們現在查緝的範圍之內，所以今天為什麼召委排了這個專報？就是對於目前查緝私菸的部分，對於你們目前所掌握到的管道，事實上大家是不滿意的，這也凸顯出財政部的憂慮事實上是沒有錯的。","所以，我覺得在查緝的部分，我還是要提醒邱部長，我們還是有精進的空間，你不能只看蝦皮、露天，因為現在很多人LINE群組有在抽電子煙，他們自己會跟你講到哪裡去買，所以目前我看到的，其實用心一點，大家都知道，Threads上面也有人在揪團買，所以我覺得這個是你要去注意的地方。","莊部長，我覺得你還有一些精進的地方可以去做處理，我有看到網路、Threads上面在分享，譬如說小港機場，有人講現在拖運的行李都會照X光，你多帶菸大家都看得到，你帶什麼違禁品也都看得到，但是手提的就沒有經過X光機嘛，都是用目測看你有沒有多帶、多買，我就看到Threads上面有一個漏洞，有人就是先手提用拿的，當他經過……因為我們現在有驗非洲豬瘟，非洲豬瘟不管菸品，部長你知道嘛！你帶十條菸，你帶二十條電子煙，他不會看，因為他只看有沒有帶豬肉嘛！他拿完並通過X光機查有沒有豬瘟之後，他就走到廁所去，他就把他所買的電子煙全部都塞到手提的行李裡面，你就沒看到了。我只講這個案例給你，事實上，查緝私菸不是只有衛福部的責任，事實上，財政部有很多可以精進的作為，所以這是我今天要提醒你們的地方。好，我這個議題到此結束。","第二個議題，上個月我有質詢不孕症的議題，就是對於不孕症補助扣除額的部分，你們本來是要求前三年要會計制度完備，現在改成前一年就好了，看起來是放寬了，但是我要提醒的是，我們做這件事情時，當時賴惠員是召委，我們都同意說，事實上我們政府做這件事情，我們扣除額的目的是要維持基本生活的必要支出，還有我們政府認為這件事情應該是要給予扣除跟補助的，所以那個扣除額改成一年這個事情，跟不孕症夫妻事實上沒有足夠的……這是兩件事情，我覺得不應該把重心放在診所採取哪一種報稅方式，而是應該確認民眾確實因為做不孕症的醫療，他可以得到補助，這個核心問題應該是在這邊，而不是你報稅制度完備改成三年、改成兩年，我覺得這件事情我仍舊不認同，我希望你可以回去考慮。","第二點，你們目前無論是自費補助或健保補助，你有四種方式，無論是查證核實或書面審查，或前三年的平均損益或按費用的費率來做申報，這是屬於健保診所的部分，但是事實上對於現在自費的部分，你要求他們一定要按費用率來去做申報，不管有沒有健保或自費，我覺得你不應該有兩套制度，才叫做會計制度的完備，我們對於政府獎勵……就是補助，就是他們做不孕症就可以扣除的這件事情，我覺得應該是回到一些基本的，包括大法官釋字第701號也有解釋，對於醫療費用支出，稅捐機關應該本於職權審核，至於用哪一種審核方式，不應該增加行政稽查的成本，否則用特定的申報方式是違反平等原則，這是大法官釋字第701號的解釋，我要提醒您。所以不管是健保或者是自費，我覺得應該都要用便民的方式來去做處理，也不應該違反平等原則。","最後我要請邱部長，對於做不孕症的部分，財政部有建議衛福部說應該要符合會計制度的完備，你才可以申請到不孕症的補助，對不對？它有要求這件事情吧？"],["邱部長泰源：那個是沒有特約的……"],["李委員彥秀：我剛剛講的那個是扣除額的部分，但我是講人工生殖的補助這部分。"],["邱部長泰源：我們補助的全部免稅。"],["李委員彥秀：對不起，你再講一次。"],["邱部長泰源：如果由國健署補助的……"],["李委員彥秀：對啦！事實上，我覺得我支持衛福部……"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，只要是政府補助的費用，都免納入報稅免稅額。"],["李委員彥秀：這是兩件事，但是現在財政部要求應該要會計制度完備才可以，他到醫院才可以領到人工生殖補助，這是兩件事情，剛剛我講的是扣除額，在他每一年要繳的稅的扣除額，我現在講的是國健署目前補助要件的修正跟調整，所以我絕對支持衛福部現在不用去管會計制度有沒有完備，他只要有做，我就給他補助，這個是我們政府給予補助的目的，所以財政部不要去介入他那麼多，因為我們政府目的是要補助給這些年輕人，他有不孕症的困難，我就是給他補助，讓他去做，有沒有自費或有沒有健保，這都不是當時選擇這些診所……他只要選擇做，他覺得這個醫生好，做了有機會成功，風評不錯，他就要去這家醫院做，他哪會去管這家醫院有沒有會計制度完備，我覺得這個是不對的，所以我絕對支持衛福部的作法。以上是我今天的質詢，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再跟委員做說明，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。","報告委員會，剛剛宣布過，陳玉珍委員質詢完畢以後，我們休息10分鐘，剛剛宣布過。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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台灣的外交我們知道台灣外交非常艱難但是不要隨便的去扣在野黨帽子那我就請問一下喔"},{"start":176.892,"end":191.622,"text":"那個部長今年在年初的時候呢應該是去年年底今年年初我們通過通過了這個海關進口稅則這裡面呢對於巴拉圭的五穀豬肉開放進口對於他們的蜂蜜是降稅還有一些他們的農產品都給予甚至有些是給予免關稅還有相關的降稅"},{"start":207.533,"end":230.431,"text":"我想請問一下,這個內容,是不是我們也為了鞏固巴拉圭之間的關係,就是我們進行了台巴之間的相關的經濟合作效益?因為這個還是要農業部主政單位他們的評估啦,我們是尊重不過就外交上來講,促進台巴之間的貿易關係,這是會有幫助的"},{"start":233.817,"end":249.582,"text":"這個立法過程我不曉得一部長現在全推給那個外交部推給農業部也很奇怪來我告訴各位這個海關進口稅則行政院喊請立法院來審議它的修正背景"},{"start":250.862,"end":273.356,"text":"開宗明義就是我們中華民國與巴拉圭共同簽就是經濟合作協定就是告訴你什麼時候簽署什麼時候生效他就把這些所有這個簽署協定的相關的這個程序然後期望來由立法院來做海關境的稅責修正所以呢這裡面當然"},{"start":274.517,"end":291.351,"text":"主要是牽涉就是進口巴拉圭的相關的農產品還要給予降稅所以我們立法院是完全沒有表決對不對因為這個大家都能夠同意就是我們要鞏固跟我們的邦交國之間的關係我們邦交國也沒剩幾個國家好結果呢因為現在這個稅則通過了結果我們的政府呢農業部竟然去告訴我們的豬農"},{"start":304.658,"end":316.13,"text":"說為什麼要進口巴拉圭的五穀豬肉呢因為豬農反彈啊豬農我們不曉得原來這之前都沒有跟豬農事先溝通耶都沒有跟豬農事先溝通然後說這個呢是國民黨同意的"},{"start":323.083,"end":340.858,"text":"然後我們就很傻眼啊我們就很傻眼部長這一黨難不難為啊如果我們不同意傷害外交關係如果我們同意這又是變成是國民黨要進口巴拉圭的豬肉怎麼樣"},{"start":344.968,"end":368.777,"text":"橫豎都要給我們丟帽子嗎因為委員我是第一次聽到的那我為什麼在這邊質詢我們這個海關進口稅我都通過了嘛對不對我為什麼要在這邊質詢我要確認部長你到底有沒有掌握我到現在為止我就覺得你掌握的事情太少了都不敢有肯定句連我們已經通過的海關進口稅責你都沒有肯定句你要多用功一點所以我要確定我們通過的海關進口稅責"},{"start":373.44,"end":387.692,"text":"針對相關巴拉圭的農產品不管是開放進口或者是相關的降稅是不是在台巴之間的經濟合作協定裡面我們所協議的事項是不是對"},{"start":392.496,"end":410.5,"text":"所以這是配合外交嘛我就是要外交部這一句話我要講的是我們支持外交但是最後不要這樣子嘛每次都這樣子人牽手牽手然後背後下毒手回到地方跟豬農講為什麼進口這個巴拉圭的農產品呢全部都是國民黨是不是"},{"start":413.021,"end":415.383,"text":"所以拜託我們外交很困難但是呢要負起這個相關的責任來也請我們的政府不要把這種只要人家豬農有反彈你就隨便推責任好不好這一點也請外交部回去跟農業部講農業部不要當小孬孬啊"},{"start":433.115,"end":434.656,"text":"農業部在上面通通告訴你啊很好啊對我們的豬農沒有影響啊臺灣的豬肉非常好啊通通沒有問題啊怎麼回過頭來跑去跟國內的豬農把責任全部推給在野黨呢也拜託部長能夠回去反映謝謝這是跨黨派謝謝王紅衛委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時7分）謝謝主席，我請林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。剛才您回答馬文君委員的時候說外交是專業，特別提到，因為大家都關注在6月3號外交部官方網站小編說要「茂顯王」，外交是專業，我想請問一下，外交部有沒有得知其實美國在6月之前、今年年初曾經提出警告，就是在伊朗跟以色列之間會發生空襲，有沒有這些資訊？"],["林部長佳龍：其實情報我們都有密切掌握中，有交換。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以有沒有掌握？有沒有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：但是對於攻擊日、對於它發動戰爭……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，有沒有？我剛剛講說今年年初美國事實上已經釋出這個訊息，也有警告，有沒有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：其實……"],["王委員鴻薇：有或沒有很簡單嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：它就在戰爭中啊，包括以巴戰爭，已經快要兩年了。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫他們在戰爭中？如果他們在戰爭中，6月3號小編還發這個「茂顯王」嗎？我很簡單的問題嘛，有或者沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有掌握。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：有關區域情勢……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講，外交是專業，事實上中央社早在今年的2月份，至少我沒有聽到任何的國安簡報，對不對？我也沒聽到你的外交簡報，但是我們至少從媒體中央社在今年年初2月份就從華盛頓發出訊息，說美國已經警告在數月間伊朗跟以色列之間會發生空襲，這是中央社，而它引述的都是美國的大媒體，包括華爾街日報，包含華盛頓郵報。所以部長，我們為什麼在質疑你們6月3號小編還讓我們的青年去冒險？因為其實在之前國際之間早就都有這樣的訊息，我們如果沒有掌握，那真的是笑死人，但是如果外交部有掌握的話，為什麼還會有那一篇發文？這是我們今天所討論的，外交部的專業到底在哪裡？一種是你們沒有掌握，沒有掌握的話，外交部該死……"],["林部長佳龍：有掌握。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，有掌握，外交部如果有掌握，卻那樣發文，那麼外交部該打屁股！你有掌握，你還讓小編去發這個文，而且你在這邊還強烈地幫小編辯護，所以才會讓大家覺得莫名其妙啊！還有部長動不動就要說，不要傷害我們的對外關係、臺灣的外交，我們知道臺灣外交非常艱難，但是不要隨便地扣在野黨帽子。","我就請問一下部長，去年年底、今年年初我們通過了海關進口稅則，這裡面對於巴拉圭的無骨豬肉開放進口，對於他們的蜂蜜是降稅，還有一些他們的農產品都給予……甚至有些是給予免關稅還有相關的降稅，我想請問一下，這個內容是不是也為了鞏固巴拉圭之間的關係，因此進行了臺巴之間經濟合作效益的相關內容？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這個還是要由主政單位農業部評估，我們是尊重，不過就外交上來講，促進臺巴之間的貿易關係是會有幫助的。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個立法過程我不曉得……因為部長現在全推給農業部也很奇怪！我告訴各位，這個海關進口稅則由行政院函請立法院審議，它的修正背景開宗明義就是中華民國與巴拉圭共同簽署經濟合作協定，告訴你什麼時候簽署、什麼時候生效，就是列出所有簽署協定的相關程序，希望立法院做海關進口稅則修正。這裡面主要牽涉進口巴拉圭相關的農產品，還有給予降稅，所以我們立法院是完全沒有表決，對不對？因為大家都同意我們要鞏固跟邦交國之間的關係，我們的邦交國也沒剩幾個國家。","現在這個稅則通過了，結果我們的政府、農業部竟然去告訴我們的豬農為什麼要進口巴拉圭的無骨豬肉，因為豬農反彈，我們不曉得原來這件事情都沒有跟豬農事先溝通，然後說這個是國民黨同意的，所以我們就很傻眼！部長，在野黨難不難為啊？"],["林部長佳龍：我是第一次聽到，委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果我們不同意，傷害外交關係！"],["林部長佳龍：外交應該是跨黨派的。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果我們同意，這又變成是國民黨要進口巴拉圭的豬肉。怎麼樣，橫豎都要給我們丟帽子嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我是第一次聽到。"],["王委員鴻薇：不然我為什麼在這邊質詢，這個海關進口稅則都通過了，對不對，我為什麼要在這邊質詢？我要確認部長到底有沒有掌握，我到現在為止覺得你掌握的事情太少了，都不敢有肯定句，連我們已經通過的海關進口稅則你都沒有肯定句，你要多用功一點！所以我要確定我們通過的海關進口稅則針對巴拉圭的相關農產品，不管是開放進口或者是相關的降稅，是不是在臺巴之間經濟合作協定裡面所協議的事項，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：對吧，所以這是配合外交嘛，我就是要外交部這一句話。我要講的是，我們支持外交，但是最後不要這樣子嘛，每次都這樣子人前手牽手、背後下毒手！回到地方跟豬農講為什麼進口巴拉圭的農產品，全部都是國民黨，是不是？所以拜託，我們外交很困難，但是要負起相關的責任，也請我們的政府不要這樣，只要人家豬農有反彈，你就隨便推責任，好不好？這一點也請外交部回去跟農業部講，農業部不要當小孬孬啊！農業部在上面通通告訴你：很好，對我們的豬農沒有影響，臺灣的豬肉非常好，通通沒有問題！怎麼回過頭來跑去跟國內的豬農把責任全部推給在野黨呢？也拜託部長能夠回去反映，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：對，這是跨黨派都支持的事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：這應該不分各種政黨嘛，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","現在我們休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續詢答。","休息（11時14分）","繼續開會（11時20分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","我們請李彥秀委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a731fdc0f0f0c5e3775c914d80f272b5bb41d1dd57576f62286918409242d3ea2ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:05:01 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我們內政部就要開始來研擬這個組織法嘛那但是目前內政部還沒有研擬出來的原因是因為當然還要涉及到其他各部會的這些問題嘛那你到底跟陸委會等等的這些新住民的或者是這些陸配的相關的權益要由誰來幫他們協助所以今天的"},{"start":128.815,"end":158.078,"text":"今天的這個組織法我是覺得很奇怪啦但是隨著這個組織法隨著這個新住民基本法確立了之後呢好現在組織法又來了把基本法的內容又搬來這裡再來討論一次到底他的身份是不是一輩子來市長市長我取得台灣身份證之後我還是新住民嗎如果這個依照這個新住民的定義"},{"start":159.198,"end":161.729,"text":"那他這個新住民的身份要跟他多久 市長"},{"start":162.817,"end":188.334,"text":"依照新住民這個基本法來回應陳獨維上面所秀的其實基本法第二條就已經把它明定了就是婚姻移民、子女等等的其實這些都已經涵蓋那其實我們在這個內容子女也涵蓋他一輩子就是新住民所以我還是希望說榮祿取得國人身份之後就是我中華民國的國民可是依照這個基本法"},{"start":189.295,"end":206.257,"text":"他只要是新住民所生的這些小孩他一輩子都叫新住民對不對我是覺得不應該標籤化對,這個就是今天這部法令的很荒謬的地方啦我相信有很多現在可能念到國中、高中甚至大學"},{"start":207.912,"end":228.23,"text":"台灣嬰啊 然後你卻用這個法令來規範他是新住民所以我覺得這個必須要提出來齁那這個其實就是沒有經過完整的討論並且推翻政黨協商把新住民權益保障法一旦他取得 權益保障的意思一旦他取得台灣身份證的時候"},{"start":229.091,"end":249.355,"text":"他就確確實實就台灣國民了嘛那你還稱他為新住民這第二條定義就是非常有問題的那今天我提出來的這一個齁除了這個組織法裡面除了這個身份之外裡面還藏了很多貓膩包含保險包含考試這些都非常非常需要"},{"start":250.923,"end":278.614,"text":"讓社會來檢視的問題啦 我跟你說根據2024年這個台灣外配的這個生活調查指標裡面98.1%的新住民他其實是有健保的喔73.8%他是有勞保的喔那你現在又在這個第二條裡面要規定這些社會保險我不知道他規定什麼耶"},{"start":279.844,"end":305.577,"text":"已經98%有健保了欸他如果入籍台灣之後他也會有健保我們要保障的是他在還沒有取得身份證這一段時間的這個權益嘛那有沒有在做衛福部有在做啊這個內政部有在做啊每一個部會都有在做啊弄這個基本法對不起真的是很奇怪好最嚴重的考試請問一下齁"},{"start":312.135,"end":324.3,"text":"人事總長在這裡,請問一下考試公務人員要不要有台灣國籍?一定來啊新住民國家考試要不要?"},{"start":325.95,"end":345.998,"text":"阿現在的按照目前的規定是要期的國籍以後要10年阿沒有阿我現在新住民國家考試要入法阿怎麼弄阿你就是侵犯到憲法阿那是科技營業管阿所以侵犯憲法嘛一個組織法可以侵犯憲法欸多嚴重好"},{"start":347.113,"end":372.102,"text":"他要另外立一個國家考試之外呢台灣人咧我們原本大家平等的考試制度在哪裡考試院有沒有來來考選部來中華民國最珍貴的地方在於我們的法治我們的法治立足在一個平等"},{"start":373.117,"end":392.266,"text":"那這一個平等的考試如果有這個新住民國家考試來你回應一下你有沒有辦法做那個公務人員考試法開宗明義就說公開競爭為之啊國家考試以公開競爭為之啊所以也是也是違法的嗎好謝謝好謝謝那我們休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時5分）有請次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：其實今天是一個很荒謬的會議，我從上個會期在內政委員會審議新住民權益保障法，到後來進入政黨協商以後，經過一次的協商，三個小時的內容討論，其實大家都簽名了，法案名稱就叫做新住民權益保障法。新住民權益保障法將中配納入新住民的定義，也就是說，你有本國籍的配偶，然後你來到臺灣以後，你就具有新住民的身分，有65%的中國配偶會變成新住民。當然，進入臺灣生活，取得臺灣國民身分證之後，他就是臺灣人嘛，但是新住民基本法第二條又把他永遠匡列為新住民，這個我覺得萬萬不可！但是藍、白還是在強行表決、撤簽協商結論之下，把這個法正式改為新住民基本法。在這個基本法之後內政部就要開始來研擬組織法，但是目前內政部還沒有研擬出來的原因是，當然這還涉及到其他部會的問題，到底跟陸委會等等……這些新住民或者是陸配相關的權益，要由誰來協助他們？所以今天的這個組織法我是覺得很奇怪啦！","隨著新住民基本法確立了之後，現在組織法又來了，把基本法的內容又搬來這裡，再來討論一次，到底他的身分是不是一輩子？次長，在我取得臺灣身分證之後，我還是新住民嗎？如果依照這個新住民的定義，他這個新住民的身分要跟著他多久？依照新住民基本法來回應我。"],["吳次長堂安：誠如委員上面所show的，確實基本法第二條就已經明定了，就是婚姻移民、子女等等，這些都已經涵蓋，其實我們在這個內容……"],["李委員柏毅：子女也涵蓋？那他一輩子就是新住民嘛。"],["吳次長堂安：所以我還是希望融入，取得國人身分之後，就是我中華民國的國民。"],["李委員柏毅：可是依照這個基本法，他只要是新住民所生的小孩，他一輩子都叫新住民，對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：我是覺得不應該標籤化。"],["李委員柏毅：對，這個就是今天這部法令很荒謬的地方。我相信有很多現在可能已經唸到國中、高中，甚至大學的臺灣「囡仔」，你卻用這個法令來規範他是新住民，所以我覺得這個必須要提出來，這個其實就是沒有經過完整的討論，並且推翻政黨協商，把新住民權益保障法……權益保障的意思，一旦他取得臺灣身分證的時候，他就確確實實是臺灣國民了，你還稱他為新住民，這個第二條的定義就是非常有問題的。","今天我提出來的這個問題，在這個組織法裡面，除了身分之外，裡面還藏了很多貓膩，包含保險，包含考試，這些都是非常非常需要讓社會來檢視的問題。我跟你說，根據2024年臺灣外配的生活調查指標，98.1%的新住民其實是有健保的，73.8%是有勞保的，你現在又要在第二條裡面規定這些社會保險，我不知道它在規定什麼？已經98%有健保了，他如果入籍臺灣之後，他也會有健保，我們要保障的是他在還沒有取得身分證這一段時間的權益，那有沒有在做？衛福部有在做，內政部有在做，每一個部會都有在做啊！弄這個基本法真的是很奇怪！好，最嚴重的「考試」，人事總長在這裡，請問一下考試，公務人員要不要有臺灣國籍？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定要的。"],["李委員柏毅：新住民國家考試要怎麼處理？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：按照目前的規定是要取得國籍以後10年啊！"],["李委員柏毅：沒有啊，現在新住民國家考試要入法啊，怎麼搞？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是侵犯到憲法，那是考試院的權管啊！"],["李委員柏毅：所以侵犯憲法嘛！一個組織法可以侵犯憲法欸，多嚴重！好，除了它要另外立一個國家考試之外，那臺灣人呢？我們原本大家平等的考試制度在哪裡？考試院有沒有來？"],["鄭副司長育明：我是考選部。"],["李委員柏毅：考選部，中華民國最珍貴的地方在於我們的法制，我們的法制立足在平等之上，這一個平等的考試如果有新住民國家考試，來，你回應一下，你有沒有辦法做？"],["鄭副司長育明：報告委員，公務人員考試法開宗明義國家考試以公開競爭為之啊！"],["李委員柏毅：所以也是違法的嘛，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們休息5分鐘。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時16分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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謝謝"},{"start":9.836,"end":36.473,"text":"部長我先來關心一下台美關稅談判就是其實最近消息非常的少那90天的那個暫停期大概是要7月8號就到了我是看到最近是外交部次長陳明齊他可能是談判團的代表之一他是在5月30號的時候媒體報導說有信心談到一個好完整又漂亮的協議他是非常充滿信心而且談到如果別人是10%的話我們是有機會可以談到10%以下"},{"start":38.334,"end":66.749,"text":"請問一下那個部長現在因為只剩下18天7月8號就到了嘛那目前大概我們跟美國談判的狀況是如何跟委員報告在曾立軍副院長的這個主持下目前台美有關於關稅的談判都順利進行中那這一方希望我們提出最好的方案我們也已經提出他們也覺得相當完整他希望我們提出對他們來說最好的方案對彼此當然也要對我們最好那對我們好的地方在哪裡"},{"start":67.869,"end":92.105,"text":"我們就是希望說透過這一次的這個關稅的談判包括我們能夠建構台美的這個經貿還有科技產業的合作更緊密的關係那關稅的部分這樣子啊部長因為你回答很空洞我來問因為那個陳明祺也有提到透過談判希望能夠釐清美方具體的關切事項請問一下美方具體的關切事項是什麼"},{"start":94.091,"end":111.98,"text":"其實他們都有公開講至少除了關稅之外非關稅障礙包括出口管制包括投資包括採購既然都已經公開講了為什麼我們還不斷談判去釐清美方具體關切事項他們關切事項現在很具體了因為那是5月30號現在的情形應該是很多的進展譬如說是什麼"},{"start":116.87,"end":134.037,"text":"我覺得很奇怪一件事情比如說像日本跟美國談判他們很多細節其實他們國內大家都掌握例如說像美國跟日本現在就卡在汽車關稅而且日本很多東西是不讓的因為他們知道說會站在日本的角度去跟美國談判關稅"},{"start":135.658,"end":154.549,"text":"那有的時候你適時的揭露一些具體的細節讓國內可以討論實際上國內的民意也可以成為政府對外談判的一個籌碼跟後盾而不是說好像我們現在針對美國談判一切都是以美國為主美國要我們怎麼樣我們就怎麼樣沒有站在台灣的利益去做這個事情"},{"start":155.089,"end":183.412,"text":"那其實這個是沒有 你現在就都不能講嘛都是講一些口號嘛 空洞跟其他國家都不一樣嘛所以我們現在好像大家在等開盲盒一樣7月8號告訴大家到時候能夠接受不能接受也已經談完了其實我覺得這是一件很恐怖的事另外再問一下因為潘孟安總統府秘書長6月初的時候到美國參加一個氣候的一個能源永續能源會議嘛當時可能也有觸及到"},{"start":184.605,"end":207.993,"text":"阿拉斯加液化天然氣設施的投資案那這兩天我看到總統府一直有消息放出來因為都是不具名啊就說 哎呀 潘孟安去有助深化台美關係進一步讓雙邊的關係更好但是我非常好奇一件事情就是政府有沒有評估過假設到時候要去投資阿拉斯加這個液化天然氣設施這個到底是好還是不好"},{"start":209.005,"end":235.035,"text":"不知道部長您個人看法因為在阿拉斯加州長三月來台灣參加美台商會的忘年會的時候其實跟中油就有簽一個合作的意向書我會增加對美國台南氣的採購也會評估投資我希望政府可以好好評估這件事情是美國有點明台灣日本韓國說希望投資這是一兆多的一個投資案"},{"start":235.675,"end":248.601,"text":"那台灣如果要投資的話大概要負擔大概一百億美金這是一些公開資訊講的十分之一啦他們提到的一兆四的話十分之一的話就是一千四百億嘛四十四億啦"},{"start":251.323,"end":257.211,"text":"44億美金啦我剛剛講台幣啦總投資額的4分之1是這個數字啦那問題是在這個是反正就是很大一筆錢啦就是大概100億美金你說44億美金嗎我按照他們提的方案的總額的資料我只要跟委員講這個數字"},{"start":267.765,"end":284.406,"text":"但是有一些資料是說一百億啦沒關係這個但不管怎麼樣都是一個很大的一筆錢可是我看到像在日本喔因為他有點名日本但日本其實國內對這個討論很熱烈而且很多人是持反對意見比如說上百個團體都有寫信給日本首相認為說這個投資案"},{"start":285.948,"end":307.769,"text":"是一個最昂貴的一個天然氣開發案而且它對於環境有很大破壞因為它從那個阿拉斯加從那邊拉一個線下來拉一個管線下來它必須要突破八百條河流還有三座山脈施工不易也會破壞很多野生動物的保護區會影響到一些動物的休息所以"},{"start":311.574,"end":325.633,"text":"國內是很反對日本的官員也多次提出不同的看法日本的保險公司說他們呼籲希望不要對類似的投資案做承保而且他們也希望銀行不要做融資所以這個案子在日本國內是討論很熱烈"},{"start":327.515,"end":349.522,"text":"在我們台灣呢 沒有任何利弊得失的分析就是說 就像陳儒部長你講的我們已經簽了意向書了 好像一句話就帶過可是我們有沒有去評估 第一個 他到底有沒有破壞生態第二個 這個投資 我們有沒有辦法回本如果沒有辦法回本 純粹是美國點名我們 我們就去投資那請問站在台灣的立場 我們換到什麼"},{"start":350.578,"end":378.863,"text":"外交或經貿都要以本國利益為出發不是說一直給現在我覺得台灣的政府都沒有看清楚川普的個性川普不是說你對他擺班的這個對他好然後讓他予取予求他就會對你比較好這一波美國跟各國談判我們都看得非常清楚可是我剛剛聽到部長您的回答都是說我們已經提出一個美方覺得很好的方案"},{"start":379.503,"end":386.578,"text":"或者是我們投資這個天然氣美國也會很高興好像都沒有站在台灣的角度去看這個事情有啦 這是前提啦"},{"start":387.421,"end":409.737,"text":"台灣優先啦那請問一下你們有沒有那部長因為這個投資天然氣我看到總統府潘孟安秘書長去的時候那你們也都很歡迎啊可不可以至少請政府提出一個分析報告出來嘛在投資上面還有就是因為接下來這個投資之後呢未來政府也要增加對美國天然氣的採購那對美國天然氣採購會不會又是變成說價格高運輸費然後又反過來發電成本提高我們電價又上漲"},{"start":417.142,"end":433.347,"text":"我覺得這一系列都要評估啦對 都要評估都要評估啦不是說每次都大外宣哎呀潘孟安去了好棒喔我們可以投資天然氣因為台美關係又更進一步好棒喔然後台美關稅談判喔好棒喔我們一定可以談出一個很棒的方案但是我們到底得到什麼"},{"start":434.468,"end":452.986,"text":"我們都不知道我是真的很希望政府那個部長啦因為你也算國安團隊一環啦新冒談判你們也有參與可不可以回去建議一下適時的揭露這談判的進度讓國內了解讓大家討論讓大家成為政府的後盾啦不要7月8號開盲盒啦可以嗎"},{"start":454.326,"end":464.659,"text":"您的意見我都會反映你也是部長你也可以有一定的決策權不過如果委員讓我講一下以阿拉斯加天然氣的採購跟投資你看最近中東戰爭"},{"start":466.243,"end":489.964,"text":"那能源需不需要有安全跟韌性你看喔 包括那個Duckworth 這個參議員他來台灣喔他認為說 只要是美國輸出的油氣美國他要保護他的航行安全我想這個周副委員在這裡就是說 這一種屬於不只是能源 經濟也是個安全議題"},{"start":491.345,"end":504.214,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣站在國家最大的利益但是一定要尊重中油因為它作為採購中油也是配合國安團隊或什麼去投資所以我說你提出一個分析報告你可以把你的意見剛剛講的納進來我跟委員講其實中油評估已經好幾年了"},{"start":513.519,"end":527.604,"text":"因為我覺得大家也不要斷章取義因為這個是一個整體的計畫就國安的角度當然大家都支持但是其實比如說跟澳洲去買也是八天天然氣就到台灣他有很多替代方案所以實際上我覺得是需要一個完整評估啦然後適時揭露啦好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時58分）麻煩請外交部長，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我想關心一下臺美關稅談判，因為最近消息非常的少，90天的暫停期大概是7月8號就要到了，我最近看到的是在5月30號的時候媒體報導指出，外交部次長陳明祺，他可能是談判團的代表之一，他說有信心談到一個好、完整又漂亮的協議。他是非常充滿信心，而且談到如果別人是10%的話，我們是有機會可以談到10%以下。請問一下部長，因為只剩下18天7月8號就到了，目前我們跟美國談判的狀況大概是如何？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，在鄭麗君副院長的主持下，目前臺美有關於關稅的談判都順利進行中，對方希望我們提出最好的方案，我們也已經提出，他們也覺得相當完整。"],["葉委員元之：是怎麼樣順利？他希望我們提出對他們來說最好的方案？"],["林部長佳龍：對彼此，當然也要對我們最好。"],["葉委員元之：對我們好的地方在哪裡？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是希望透過這一次的關稅談判，包括我們能夠建構臺美的經貿，還有科技產業合作更緊密的關係，關稅的部分……"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為你回答得很空洞，我來問，因為陳明祺也有提到，透過談判希望能夠釐清美方具體的關切事項，請問一下，美方具體的關切事項是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：其實他們都有公開講，除了關稅之外，就是非關稅障礙，包括出口管制、投資、採購。"],["葉委員元之：既然都已經公開講了，為什麼我們還不斷談判去釐清美方具體關切事項？所以這個有講跟……"],["林部長佳龍：他們的關切事項現在很具體了。"],["葉委員元之：那是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為那是5月30號，現在的情形應該是有很多的進展。"],["葉委員元之：譬如說是什麼？不是，我覺得這是很奇怪的一件事情，譬如像日本跟美國談判，很多細節其實他們國內大家都有掌握，例如說像是美國跟日本現在就卡在汽車關稅，而且日本很多東西是不讓的，因為他們會站在日本的角度去跟美國談判關稅，有的時候你適時地揭露一些具體細節，讓國內可以討論，實際上國內的民意也可以成為政府對外談判的籌碼跟後盾，而不是說好像我們現在在跟美國談判，一切都是以美國為主，美國要我們怎麼樣，我們就怎麼樣，沒有站在臺灣的利益去做這個事情，其實這個是……"],["林部長佳龍：有啦。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，你現在就都不能講嘛，都是講一些口號嘛，很空洞，跟其他國家都不一樣，所以現在大家好像在等開盲盒一樣，7月8號才告訴大家，到時候能夠接受、不能接受，也已經談完了，其實我覺得這是一件很恐怖的事。","另外再問一下，因為總統府秘書長潘孟安6月初的時候到美國參加一個永續能源會議，當時可能也有觸及到阿拉斯加液化天然氣設施的投資案，這兩天我看到總統府一直有消息放出來，因為都是不具名，就說派潘孟安去有助深化臺美關係，進一步讓雙邊的關係更好。但是我非常好奇一件事情就是政府有沒有評估過，假設到時候要去投資阿拉斯加液化天然氣設施，這到底是好還是不好，不知道部長您個人看法如何？"],["林部長佳龍：因為阿拉斯加州長在3月來臺灣參加美臺商會忘年會的時候，其實就有跟中油簽一個合作的意向書……"],["葉委員元之：我知道啊，但是問題是……"],["林部長佳龍：也會增加對美國天然氣的採購，也會評估投資。"],["葉委員元之：我希望政府可以好好評估啦！這件事情是美國有點名臺灣、日本、韓國，說希望這些國家投資嘛，這是一兆多的投資案，臺灣如果要投資的話，大概要負擔100億美金，這是一些公開資訊講的，我看到……"],["林部長佳龍：十分之一啦，他們提到的，44億。"],["葉委員元之：一兆四的話，十分之一就是1,400億。"],["林部長佳龍：44億啦。"],["葉委員元之：44億美金，我剛剛講臺幣啦。"],["林部長佳龍：對，總投資額的四分之一是這個數字。"],["葉委員元之：對，那問題是在這個……"],["林部長佳龍：這個是雙方的意向書……"],["葉委員元之：反正就是很大一筆錢啦，就是大概100億美金……你說44億美金嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：按照他們提的方案總額的十分之一，我只是跟委員講這個數字，至於談判就由他們雙向去……"],["葉委員元之：但是有一些資料是說100億啦，沒關係，但不管怎麼樣都是很大一筆錢。可是我看到像在日本，因為他有點名日本，但日本國內其實對於這個議題討論很熱烈，而且很多人是持反對意見，比如說上百個團體都有寫信給日本首相，認為這個投資案是一個最昂貴的天然氣開發案，而且對於環境有很大的破壞，因為從阿拉斯加那邊拉一個管線下來，必須要突破800條河流還有3座山脈，施工不易，也會破壞很多野生動物的保護區，會影響到一些動物的棲息，所以日本國內是很反對，日本的官員也多次提出不同的看法；日本的保險公司說他們呼籲希望不要對類似投資案做承保，而且他們也希望銀行不要做融資，所以這個案子在日本國內是討論很熱烈。而在我們臺灣卻沒有任何利弊得失的分析，就誠如部長你講的我們已經簽了意向書了，就一句話帶過，可是我們有沒有去評估：第一個，它到底有沒有破壞生態；第二個，這個投資我們有沒有辦法回本，如果沒有辦法回本，純粹是美國點名我們，我們就去投資，請問一下，站在臺灣的立場，我們換到什麼？外交或經貿都要以本國利益為出發，不是說一直給。我覺得臺灣的政府都沒有看清楚川普的個性，川普不是說你百般地對他好，讓他予取予求，他就會對你比較好，這一波美國跟各國談判，我們都看得非常清楚，可是我剛剛聽到部長您的回答都是說我們已經提出一個美方覺得很好的方案，或是說我們投資這個天然氣，美國也會很高興，好像都沒有站在臺灣的角度去看這個事情。"],["林部長佳龍：有啦，這是前提啦，臺灣優先啦。"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為投資天然氣這個部分，我看到總統府潘孟安秘書長去的時候，你們也都很歡迎，可不可以至少請政府提出一個在投資方面的分析報告出來？還有接下來投資之後，未來政府也要增加對美國天然氣的採購，對美國天然氣採購會不會又變成價格高又有運輸費，而反過來導致發電成本提高，我們電價又上漲？我覺得這一系列都要評估啦。"],["林部長佳龍：對，都要評估。"],["葉委員元之：都要評估啦，不是說每次都大外宣，說潘孟安去了，好棒喔！我們可以投資天然氣，Yay！臺美關係又更進一步，好棒喔！臺美關稅談判好棒喔！我們一定可以談出一個很棒的方案。但是我們到底得到什麼，我們都不知道，我是真的很希望政府……部長，因為你也算國安團隊的一環，經貿談判你們也有參與，可不可以回去建議一下適時地揭露談判的進度？讓國內了解、讓大家討論，讓大家成為政府的後盾，不要7月8號開盲盒，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：您的意見我都會反映。"],["葉委員元之：你也是部長，你也可以有一定的決策權，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：委員，讓我講一下。"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["林部長佳龍：以阿拉斯加天然氣的採購跟投資，你看最近中東戰爭，能源需不需要有安全跟韌性？你看包括Duckworth參議員來臺灣，他認為只要是美國輸出的油、氣，美國會保護其航行安全，我想永康委員也在這裡，就是說這不只是能源經濟問題，也是安全議題，所以我們怎麼樣站在國家最大的利益……"],["葉委員元之：是啦，部長，所以我說……"],["林部長佳龍：但是一定要尊重中油，因為它作為採購跟投資的單位……"],["葉委員元之：中油也是配合國安團隊或什麼去投資嘛……"],["林部長佳龍：就是整體上一定要站在國家最大的利益。"],["葉委員元之：所以我說請你提出一個分析報告，你也可以把你剛剛講的意見納進來。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員講，其實中油評估已經好幾年了，他們只是說……"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為我覺得大家也不要斷章取義，因為這是一個整體的計畫，就國安的角度，當然大家都支持，但是其實比如跟澳洲去買也是8天天然氣就會到臺灣，這是有很多替代方案的，所以實際上我覺得是需要一個完整評估以及適時揭露，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，一起來努力。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","接下來由王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73ec61d06c3abdd501c914d80f272b5bb41d1dd57576f622865bdf3d81c64cf4bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:54:49 - 11:04:55","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團、（三）委員張智倫等17人、（四）委員葉元之等21人及（五）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團、（二）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（三）國民黨黨團、（四）委員張智倫等17人、（五）委員葉元之等21人及（六）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部新住民發展署組織法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-19","start_time":"2025-06-19T10:54:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-19T11:04:55+08:00","duration":606,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.98346875,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.83971875,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.24846875,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.745968750000003,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.67221875,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.61534375000001,"end":99.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.15034375,"end":125.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.64846875,"end":131.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.17909375000002,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.35034375,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.95346875,"end":180.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":197.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.77221875,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.57284375,"end":209.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.41159375,"end":212.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.58846875,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.61284375000002,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.56471875000003,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.11596875,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.96346875,"end":250.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.70909375000002,"end":252.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.71721875000003,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.63596875,"end":260.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.59346875,"end":263.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.88846875,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.68096875000003,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.41596875,"end":295.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.30971875,"end":296.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.73159375,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.84096875,"end":300.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.87846875,"end":304.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.56971875,"end":309.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.45096875,"end":310.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.61096875000004,"end":337.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.86846875000003,"end":342.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.27284375000005,"end":343.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.44971875000005,"end":361.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.91534375000003,"end":369.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.22221875,"end":372.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.64784375000005,"end":374.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.29721875,"end":376.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.50784375,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.60471875,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.03471875,"end":385.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.48971875,"end":433.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.97159375,"end":447.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.18034375,"end":451.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.44971875000005,"end":470.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.16409375,"end":604.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.35409375,"end":605.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.4384687500001,"end":606.48471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.248,"end":7.529,"text":"主席請次長謝謝"},{"start":13.403,"end":40.982,"text":"大家辛苦了我想也要再一次清楚的說明民進黨我們對於新住民的各項權益我們一直希望能夠協助跨部會的來協助讓新住民成為國人的這個過渡階段各項的保障權益我們都盡可能的做好做滿讓他們能夠融入台灣社會也就是從新住民成為台灣郎"},{"start":42.443,"end":64.84,"text":"的這個過渡期間我們該做的政策全方面都進行而且是現在進行式所以在這一個身份過渡的期間我們要協助所有新住民的是要去去標籤化而不是貼標籤化甚至是一次貼上一輩子的標籤"},{"start":66.321,"end":80.975,"text":"這是民進黨反對的思維所以說當初在新住民權益保障法是民進黨的主張但是藍白是多數他們還是強硬的用新住民基本法"},{"start":81.812,"end":99.367,"text":"用一個基本法的高位階來強行通過了但今天我們面對的問題就是一步錯步步錯問題來了好我們看到這一頁民進黨當初主張的作用法權益保障法"},{"start":100.288,"end":122.685,"text":"是優於一個只有宣示效用的基本法民進黨的主張因為是作用法可以快狠準快速的制定各項政策而且執行而且因為是一個作用法我們不會產生跟既有法律漢格的問題更重要的嚴肅的課題是當初我們拆了地雷我們守住了一個可能危及國家安全"},{"start":130.478,"end":156.54,"text":"的立法當時被我們發現藍白委員所提的甚至要讓陸配穿上新住民的身份外衣而鬆綁現在陸委會所進行的各項管制也就是陸配極有可能轉換的身份成為新住民的話他就可以入籍年限極有可能達到六變四"},{"start":157.2,"end":180.54,"text":"殊途同歸修不同的法但是達到這樣子的政治目的所以這背後的國安危機我們當然要戒慎恐懼要防要反制所以說我們的政策立場我要再一次的再討論新住民發展署的這個時候再次清楚的說明下一頁"},{"start":181.721,"end":209.28,"te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但是新住民基本法的定義就很清楚啦新住民包括港澳跟陸配啊所以是不是就發生了適用法律的漢格跟現行你會用一個錯誤的法律概念跟框架讓一個三級機關架空了二級機關陸委會是不是有這樣子的疑慮是 委員這就是會有法律的未接特別法跟一般法或基本法的沒有錯 好 我們看下一頁"},{"start":297.881,"end":307.815,"text":"我們來講對新住民的照顧民進黨執政我們努力做更好做更多但是為了成立一個新機關將會"},{"start":312.036,"end":336.887,"text":"產生了實質的困難而且我更要說他很恐怕是虛有其表我這邊列出來的所有的從生活輔導醫療從就業就學教育文化人身安全保障各項權益所有的執行政策的執行是不是已經散列在各個政府部會"},{"start":337.967,"end":360.698,"text":"是的 跟委員報告 其實委員所爐列的這些本來就是目前我們的分工各部會分工就以今天要審的發展署的組織法裡頭的第二條的所有的在野黨委員的十一項也是即便你今天成立了這個署你這些業務是不是還是回到這些部會執行"},{"start":361.983,"end":384.457,"text":"是的跟委員報告其實我們目前召開期制會就是就這些業務依照基本法的內容到底跟其他部會是不是有些要再調整那這樣成立一個新的發展署可是業務是各部會在做這不是很怪嗎所以我們新的發展署也不可能涵蓋其他部會的業務好我們看下一頁確實需要整合"},{"start":385.598,"end":399.331,"text":"如果說我們需要整合其實現在已經有內政部移民署在進行中而且行政院特別照顧新住民在行政院成立了新住民事務協調匯報就是有一個跨部會的協調機制"},{"start":405.276,"end":424.627,"text":"院長著急的喔然後來讓各部會對於新住民的服務照顧權益保障能夠具體明確的分工不會彼此打架不會彼此有漢格所以如果成立一個新住民發展署我剛剛已經說了即便有一個新的單位整合的工作現在跨部會的協調彙報已經在做更高位"},{"start":434.053,"end":446.363,"text":"然後呢執行的政策的各個面向也是交給其他部會去執行那我們成立這個署不是須有其表嗎不是為了成立而成立嗎"},{"start":448.24,"end":470.227,"text":"最後下一頁因為時間到了我同樣同意剛剛幾位民進黨委員提出來的主張第二條的第三款有關於要考試特殊的權利我們認為要回到考試權的平等的原則而且不要再次違憲侵犯了考試院的權利下一頁"},{"start":471.267,"end":495.583,"text":"在第二條的第八款有關於我不曉得國民黨民眾黨的委員來加了一個新住民廣播電視之規劃是不是有要成立新住民電視台之類的規劃我想這個又是一個更嚴峻的耗費人力物力他需要更長遠的規劃所以我同意羅美玲委員的版本以媒體來取代廣播電視在這個條款的內容我最後利用30秒的時間我要清楚的"},{"start":501.407,"end":522.701,"text":"再次呈現新住民在台灣我們努力讓他從新住民成為台灣郎的過渡期限各項的權益民進黨努力做到這是過去沒有做到的包括新住民可以參選立法委員包括學校開設的母語教學課程只要一個新住民選修就給開課"},{"start":524.102,"end":540.698,"text":"政府政策也已經做到多國語言的翻譯跟服務而且沒有健保的新住民我們給與跟國人一樣享有產檢的補助還有新住民的就學是給予外加名額的協助還有"},{"start":541.158,"end":569.886,"text":"各項技術考科都可以申請多語言的服務包括就業訓練不需要有任何的費用包括新住民的子女另外國家編列獎學金來幫助他們而且台灣22個縣市都有新住民的家庭服務中心以及新住民的子女如果要回台灣就學教育部已經有旋轉教育免費的方式來協助最後一個新住民在移民署的考試"},{"start":570.566,"end":592.538,"text":"也有多語類科現在進行是正在進行換言之還沒有成立一個新住民的發展署各項的業務對於新住民的權益保障服務措施我們努力做好做滿所以大家可以好好繼續的深思熟慮如果成立了一個新的組織確實需有起表"},{"start":593.078,"end":605.929,"text":"又會發生跟其他部會的漢格用一個三級機關凌駕二級機關的權限真的值得大家深思再深思謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 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我說爆炸的距離不是用聽的對他今天一打過來你連跑都沒機會跑那目前的話呢就是說像我們剛剛博鳳說的我們其他六位的官員包含孫主任本人我們之前那個已經跟他們提到就是說那個撤離的路線是會往土耳其那主任他還有另外一條路線是往離海往北邊走那地方是相對來講安全的已經有安排有 有安排那主任他可能這一兩天就會動身往離海的方向去做一個自我就是說一個安全的一個處理的一個動作"},{"start":324.105,"end":332.53,"text":"好 那可見我們也知道那裡的態勢是非常緊張而且它不是現在才開始剛剛部長我們有提到從112年就開始可是我們在中東地區緊張態勢已經持續這麼久的時間外交部為什麼在本月初的時候公告我們啟動青年學子赴以色列度假打工這樣的一個申請的訊息我們的原因是什麼"},{"start":349.759,"end":365.868,"text":"就是我們就按照標準作業程序的判斷嘛那因為這個因為其他國家還是都維持包括像韓國、澳洲、紐西蘭所以我們怎麼樣跟國際同步那這個對台語關係也很重要可是並不代表說我們要去讓國人置入險境我們會"},{"start":366.869,"end":374.834,"text":"檢討情勢的變化所以後來會暫緩也是因為情勢有變化因為那時候還沒有發生戰爭發生戰爭之後我們就暫緩了部長你6月3號還在往官網上面今天如果有疏失我覺得我們可以勇敢的去面對而不是在這裡去說這些理由今天如果6月3號有人看到的時候部長聽我講完那個不是過不急你的孩子你會讓他去那裡嗎"},{"start":395.265,"end":405.917,"text":"你不是笑話嗎今天如果我們沒有充分掌握所有的孩子所有的國人如果你知道專業更不可以用這種小編你的小編都在上面寫什麼就這個問題請你尊重我外交部的同仁專業的判斷"},{"start":410.402,"end":417.565,"text":"他是網路語言 外交部的官網可以發生網路語言嗎部長如果可以 你如果知道是專業你更應該要這樣好好的 我們本來應該好好的談這是一個非常嚴肅的問題 你讓我們年輕人在沒有充分的資訊之下 他們相信的會是外交部外交部在你的官網上面 鼓勵我們所有的青年人"},{"start":435.091,"end":439.154,"text":"去以色列還有這樣的一個國家他來登記我們都還沒有在執行中你6月3號還在受理如果他報名了他6月10號要出門可以嗎有人請你了解外交的專業可以嗎 外交專業是什麼讓我們聯繫的讓我們"},{"start":452.483,"end":453.904,"text":"外交專業是讓我們的年輕人到一個以色列戰火衝刺的地方什麼叫誇張什麼叫誇張什麼叫扭曲事實你6月3號是不是有那一篇6月3號"},{"start":474.36,"end":477.803,"text":"你去查看看6月3號美國是什麼樣的等級什麼叫沒有發生戰爭你胡說八道尊重外交專業我們就是不認為你有外交專業如果今天要講到這樣我們進退你這邊你看的是韓國的外交紐西蘭嗎"},{"start":493.234,"end":502.978,"text":"你看的是澳洲 紐西蘭如果他們已經有人犧牲了你還是讓他犧牲嗎你今天如果是專業部長今天如果你是專業你在之前就應該要探訪如果外交協議或者辦活動是你的主要重點你應該讓現在社會正常因為有一堆年輕人要去外交要去度假打工那是雙方一個度假打工辦法的受理的時間"},{"start":522.947,"end":528.688,"text":"我們當然會因情勢做調整啊你6月3號 包括情勢的層級都依照國際的規範跟國際對接部長因為這樣會傷害國家我才會這樣子回應你部長 部長因為會傷害台語的關係我才會這樣講啊部長你傷害到什麼因為您的發言傷害到我們的外交關係你的外交關係是什麼以色列會在乎的如果你認為這樣會傷害你告訴大家我們會傷害什麼"},{"start":552.097,"end":560.827,"text":"因為當其他國家還維持跟以色列度假打工我們自己當方面去停止那個時候還沒有發生戰爭這會傷害我們產業關係部長 把他講清楚其他國家什麼時候把這個危險的等級換掉的"},{"start":570.057,"end":596.508,"text":"都是按照警示標準的調整這個程序就是這樣子部長什麼時候你是外交部長我一跟你講說6月1號的時候包括澳洲紐西蘭韓國等等跟以色列有度假打工的國家還是維持這個辦法的實施但是不代表我們要出發也不代表我們完成了審查我們國人他在乎的是因為有太多扭曲我必須要說明因為這涉及到我們的外交"},{"start":598.188,"end":604.31,"text":"你讓我們的國人深入險境你還敢這樣說你還敢這樣說 你還敢這樣說你讓我們的年輕人深入險境你的小編可以在網路上面這樣子的編冒險王 什麼叫冒險王"},{"start":625.715,"end":630.681,"text":"你的孩子你會這樣讓他去嗎你扭曲事實你會讓他這樣去嗎什麼叫扭曲事實你到6月3號你的官網還沒換欸我們的網站最重要那時候還沒有發生以色列跟伊朗的戰事"},{"start":640.765,"end":644.147,"text":"我們根據警示在辦理 根據國際的規範與其他國家同步可恥 今天如果我們發現我們氣象報告說哪一個地方可能在禮拜六或禮拜天或下個禮拜會有暴風雨會有颱風的時候你會在那時候還鼓勵你的孩子下個禮拜去那裡辦活動這個禮拜去那裡辦露營嗎"},{"start":665.737,"end":671.28,"text":"部長 將心比心你今天 你今天要站在這個位你今天要站在這個位你如果要站在這裡做維委員在那裡爛掉我不是這樣的人 我也知道所以我們剛開始很理性的跟你談沒有傷害 你有傷害沒有傷害到什麼外交關係你告訴我 傷害到哪一個外交關係我們跟以色列簽了這樣一個度假打工"},{"start":694.174,"end":703.88,"text":"獨家老公你可不可以請黑熊學院的去他們的成員需要面對的因為他們現在在教我們所有的國人現在他們需要的是暫時的一些實務的經驗如果你這樣說你怕跟以色列傷害到這樣的協議就可以推這樣的活動沒有國際規範"},{"start":718.688,"end":722.37,"text":"國家的安全是一個外交部長掌握所有國際態勢除非你根本不在乎如果你不在乎才會繼續做這樣的事而且在國會殿堂還可以持續這樣講我剛剛舉例你應該很清楚如果今天我們事實有一些處我必須說明對國家的外交關係會影響我也必須要澄清"},{"start":743.161,"end":751.667,"text":"6月3號他就已經是這樣然後你們鼓勵我們的孩子去冒險就跟我們剛剛講的如果已經有戰爭發生你已經來不及部長戰爭發生你已經來不及很遺憾我們國家的外交部長是你林佳龍"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時45分）謝謝主席，部長已經站上來了，部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：今天很多委員特別提到，也很關切中東的緊張局勢，事實上從112年開始，以巴戰爭還有葉門胡塞組織的紅海危機其實就一直持續到現在，美軍也一直增強在中東地區的兵力，部署的航母艦隊也從來沒有減少，甚至近期更將印太的兵力移往中東地區去做支援；昨天美國政府更宣布美軍已經在參戰的邊緣，而且要求伊朗無條件投降，美國國務院也連續發出安全警訊，要求不要前往伊朗、伊拉克以及以色列，川普總統更要所有人離開德黑蘭，這些事態外交部目前都有掌握嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們全力掌握中。"],["馬委員文君：現在我們的掌握跟美國的作法有什麼不一樣？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然有跟包括美方還有各國大使館交換相關資訊來做因應。"],["馬委員文君：有沒有成立專責的工作小組與外館建立高風險地區通報機制？或者跟第三國協調撤離的機制？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們都有標準作業程序，也針對中東戰事的發展密切注意，同時相對的來做因應。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們想要有比較清楚的回答，因為事態已經發展到這樣，而外交部直到昨天晚上6點都還是維持以色列是橙色警訊，但美國都已經改成紅色最高等級，我們卻還是橙色的，請問原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：其實有些國家是紅色，有些國家是橙色，有些是部分紅色、部分橙色……"],["馬委員文君：我們也有紅色……"],["林部長佳龍：我們是部分紅色、部分橙色。"],["馬委員文君：我們有哪裡是紅色？"],["林部長佳龍：在北境跟加薩附近我們是列為紅色，但是其他的地方……"],["馬委員文君：我們是認為其他地方還不到這樣的地步？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這都有評估的標準，所以我們就是根據這個標準來辦理。"],["馬委員文君：可是美國已經發出這樣的紅色警訊了。"],["林部長佳龍：但是像日韓等很多國家，他們還是維持橙色。"],["馬委員文君：我們其實不是看日韓……"],["林部長佳龍：我們是看自己，我們有一個標準作業程序。"],["馬委員文君：因為日韓他們在撤離上，或者跟周邊國家的協調上，包括他們可以往周邊國家跑的時候，其實他們都有一些規劃跟撤離的機制，而我們的臺貿專責工作單位，像我們駐德黑蘭的臺貿中心是否要撤離？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們在伊朗沒有代表處，所以是由貿協德黑蘭中心負責，它是經濟部的單位，不過我們的聯繫都非常的密切，因為我們針對旅外的國人都有登錄，當然有一些沒有來登錄……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為剛剛您說有掌握這些相關態勢的發展，我現在要說的是，美國已經發出紅色警戒，我們還是在橙色……"],["林部長佳龍：不是，那是以色列。"],["馬委員文君：如果你認為這樣可以，那伊朗是全部都紅色嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["馬委員文君：若是紅色警戒，我們臺貿中心是否應該要撤離？因為都已經是紅色警戒，他們都沒地方可以跑，不是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他們都有做準備。"],["馬委員文君：可以去哪裡？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他們……"],["馬委員文君：他們接下來已經宣布要打第三區，我們的臺貿中心就是在第三區，我們就是在那裡，現在還不走，請問要等到什麼時候才走？"],["林部長佳龍：因為9人裡面走了3人，然後另外3人已經安排要離境……"],["馬委員文君：安排好了？"],["林部長佳龍：有時候我們的政府單位或所屬的法人機構，他們怎麼去照顧我們在當地的人，讓他們能夠順利地離境，這個也是他的工作，可是也必須要照顧自己的安全，不能置於險境。"],["馬委員文君：對！部長，那個都沒關係，我剛剛講的是臺貿中心位在已經被宣稱要攻擊的周邊區域了，你們應該要做的是……"],["林部長佳龍：有，他都做好撤離的準備……"],["馬委員文君：即使照顧國人也要照顧自己，他自己都不安全了，就沒有辦法再做後續的工作，就這個部分，請問他們可以撤離去哪裡？"],["林部長佳龍：他們可以撤離。"],["馬委員文君：可以撤離去哪裡？"],["林部長佳龍：我請亞非司陳副司長說明。"],["陳副司長詠博：委員好，這個部分簡短跟委員報告，您剛剛提到的第三區，的確伊朗國家電視臺就在第三區，昨天我們跟貿協孫主任也提到這個部分，他們的確也聽到那個聲音，但離辦公室有一段距離，目前的狀況是他們最近可能會撤往……"],["馬委員文君：爆炸的距離不是用聽的！"],["陳副司長詠博：他們是先聽到聲音……"],["馬委員文君：我是說，爆炸的距離不是用聽的！"],["陳副司長詠博：對。"],["馬委員文君：若它今天一打過來，你連跑的機會都沒有！"],["陳副司長詠博：目前就是像剛剛部長說的，我們其他6位的國人，包含孫主任本人，因為我們之前已經跟他們提到，撤離的路線是會往土耳其，而主任他還有另外一條路是往裏海、往北邊走，那個地方相對來講是安全的。"],["馬委員文君：已經有安排？"],["陳副司長詠博：有安排，主任可能這一、兩天就會動身往裏海方向去做一個維護自我安全的處理動作。"],["馬委員文君：好，可見我們也知道那裡的態勢是非常緊張的，而且並不是現在才開始，剛剛我有提到，其實從112年就開始了，可是在中東地區緊張態勢已經持續這麼久時間的情況下，外交部為什麼在本月初公告要啟動青年學子赴以色列打工度假這樣一個申請的訊息？我們公告的原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是按照標準作業程序來判斷，因為其他國家都還是維持這樣，包括像韓國、澳洲、紐西蘭，所以我們是跟國際同步，而且這個對臺以關係也很重要，可是並不代表我們要讓國人置於險境，我們會檢討情勢的變化，所以後來會暫緩也是因為情勢有變化，畢竟那時候還沒有發生戰爭，但發生戰爭之後我們就暫緩了。"],["馬委員文君：可是你們6月3號還在官網上面公布，今天如果有疏失，我們可以勇敢地去面對，而不是在這裡去說這些理由，如果6月3號有人看到的話……"],["林部長佳龍：我是認為沒有疏失啦！因為過猶不及……"],["馬委員文君：部長，請聽我講完，那個不是過猶不及，若是你的孩子，你會讓他去那裡嗎？這不是笑話嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這是依據國際的規範跟對接……"],["馬委員文君：今天如果我們沒有充分掌握，所有的孩子、所有的國人……"],["林部長佳龍：外交是很專業的！"],["馬委員文君：如果你知道專業，更不可以用這種小編，你的小編都在上面寫什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：就這個問題，請你尊重我外交部同仁專業的判斷。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你剛剛說那是網路語言，外交部的官網可以當成網路語言嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：小編是另外一個問題，我們待會可以來討論，現在我們討論的是臺以關係。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你如果知道是專業，你更應該要這樣，我們本來應該好好的談，這是一個非常嚴肅的問題，你讓我們年輕人在沒有充分的資訊之下，他們相信的是外交部，而外交部在官網上面，鼓勵我們所有的青年人去以色列這樣的國家……"],["林部長佳龍：No！No！No！他來登記，我們受理，而且我們都還沒有在執行中……"],["馬委員文君：你6月3號還在受理，如果他報名了，他6月10號就要出門，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：No！No！No！委員，請你了解外交的專業……"],["馬委員文君：可以嗎？外交專業是什麼？讓我們的年輕人……"],["林部長佳龍：我要為我的同仁辯護。"],["馬委員文君：外交專業是讓我們的年輕人到以色列這樣一個戰火充斥的地方……"],["林部長佳龍：你不要把它誇張化了，就不是這樣子嘛！我們都按照程序在辦理……"],["馬委員文君：什麼叫誇張？"],["林部長佳龍：你不能夠扭曲事實啦！"],["馬委員文君：什麼叫扭曲事實？你6月3號是不是有這一篇……"],["林部長佳龍：臺以簽訂的度假打工計畫協定如期公布，依照實際情勢我們宣布暫緩，這是專業的判斷，請委員尊重我外交部同仁。"],["馬委員文君：6月3號不危險嗎？你去查看看，6月3號美國是什麼樣的等級？"],["林部長佳龍：那時候還沒有發生戰爭。"],["馬委員文君：什麼叫沒有發生戰爭？"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我尊重你，請你尊重外交專業。"],["馬委員文君：你胡說八道，尊重外交專業，我們就是不認為你有外交專業，如果今天要講到這樣……"],["林部長佳龍：那韓國、澳洲、紐西蘭維持度假打工，人家就不專業嗎？"],["馬委員文君：你看的是韓國、澳洲、紐西蘭嗎？如果他們已經有人犧牲了，你還是讓他犧牲嗎？你今天如果是專業……"],["林部長佳龍：外交就是專業，就在於你講的話。"],["馬委員文君：部長，今天如果你是專業，你在之前就應該要判斷……"],["林部長佳龍：國與國之間的關係，外交還是跟內政不太一樣啦！"],["馬委員文君：如果外交協議或者辦活動是你的主要重點，應該讓社會……"],["林部長佳龍：因為你批評的事實是錯誤的，並沒有一堆年輕人要去度假打工，那是雙方度假打工辦法的受理時間，我們當然會依情勢做調整，包括警示的層級都依照國際的規範跟國際對接……"],["馬委員文君：部長、部長……"],["林部長佳龍：因為這個會傷害國家，我才會這樣子回應。"],["馬委員文君：部長、部長……"],["林部長佳龍：因為會傷害臺以關係，我才會這樣講。"],["馬委員文君：部長，你傷害到什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為你的發言傷害到我們的外交關係。"],["馬委員文君：你的外交關係是什麼？以色列會在乎的，如果你認為這樣會傷害，你告訴大家，我們會傷害什麼？會傷害什麼？你在6月之前……"],["林部長佳龍：因為當其他國家還維持跟以色列度假打工，我們自己單方面去停止……"],["馬委員文君：其他國家什麼時候撤的？"],["林部長佳龍：那時候還沒有發生戰爭。"],["馬委員文君：其他國家什麼時候……"],["林部長佳龍：這會傷害我們臺以關係。"],["馬委員文君：部長，把它講清楚，其他國家什麼時候把這個危險的等級換掉的？"],["林部長佳龍：都是按照警示標準在調整。"],["馬委員文君：不要說按照啦！什麼時候？"],["林部長佳龍：這個程序就是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：部長，什麼時候？你是外交部長。"],["林部長佳龍：我已經跟你講，6月1號的時候，包括澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國等等跟以色列有度假打工的國家還是維持這個辦法的實施。"],["馬委員文君：部長、部長……"],["林部長佳龍：但是不代表我們要出發，也不代表我們完成了審查。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們國人在乎的，最重要的……"],["林部長佳龍：因為有太多扭曲，我必須要說明，因為這涉及到……"],["馬委員文君：扭曲在哪裡？你讓我們的國人深入險境，你還敢這樣說！你還敢這樣說！"],["林部長佳龍：你現在講的就是傷害國家的外交。"],["馬委員文君：你還敢這樣說！你們執政以後丟了幾個邦交國？"],["林部長佳龍：你對我個人怎麼批評，我沒有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今年因為所得稅的申報以及繳納的期限延長到6月底到6月17號為止 中鎖稅已經完成申報的有583萬件 大概達成了85%還有15萬還沒有完成申報那在中鎖稅的部分呢 已經完成了88%"},{"start":52.777,"end":71.344,"text":"那至於在稅收的部分呢大概是我們目前來說只有統計到五月底那這個數字其實在比較的基礎上比較沒有具有太大的意義因為今年整個繳納的期限延到六月底所以五月底的數字跟去年的同期當然是有一段很大的差距是"},{"start":71.804,"end":88.78,"text":"是的 分別是85%跟88%這個是申報的件數大概到6月17號還是要呼籲一下民眾儘早完成報稅是的 還有剩12天我們希望民眾在期限內完成回到主題我們那個私菸 茶器一直是國人關心的重點"},{"start":89.841,"end":94.724,"text":"那你們這個實驗查緝作業的報告指出說1月3年查緝違法菸品1,120萬包那1月2年查緝查獲數量是1,838萬包相較減少了718萬"},{"start":107.533,"end":122.312,"text":"這個煙啦但是件數增加了4589件現在看起來就是件數增加是因為有假發現增炸彩的情況這個部分新聞都有寫啦因為這不是口說空口說的這個部分新聞分別都海巡人員這個"},{"start":125.295,"end":149.031,"text":"涉勾結私煙集團詐領查緝獎金還有就是加熱煙走私 年成長86%海關人員說政府不徵稅 偷垮基層海巡抓煙暴集團集體貪污這個勾結集團詐領高額獎金的部分那所以我想這個部分"},{"start":152.582,"end":165.49,"text":"利用街友低收入戶當人頭然後乍領茶企這個私菸獎金國庫直接變成他們的提款機那人頭戶原本帳戶收入不多但是在2019、2023年間開設的私菸工廠"},{"start":168.952,"end":182.128,"text":"總共被裁罰了7次那這罰款5500多萬但是他卻只繳了14000多塊的這些罰金那這7次的查緝獎金跟檢舉獎金就被領走2482萬"},{"start":184.531,"end":210.234,"text":"那如果依照海巡單位自己的說法說查緝一千萬的私菸最高獎金是四百八十萬就四十八趴 這相當高喔那二零二三年查獲的私菸市價是八點五九億獎金發了八千多萬減少七百一十八萬包但是件數增加四千五百八十九件這個很明顯的內神通外鬼不知道A組有多少錢部長"},{"start":211.855,"end":230.306,"text":"太晚發現釀成了這樣子的一個大錯這是一個大問題所以請教部長你要如何精進如何檢討那國庫署這邊有沒有跟你提出相關的檢討報告可不可以跟我們說明一下謝謝 謝謝委員我想第一個就是包數減少但是呢 查獲的件數增加"},{"start":230.926,"end":235.351,"text":"主要的原因第一個就是說原來濕煙它透過走邊境走濕轉化成為在國內的地下煙廠來濕製來產製這個濕煙而且這個地下煙廠原來是屬於大規模的那個比較大的機器設備而現在是採小規模但是它地點分散所以在查氣的難度上確實有提高那件數增加"},{"start":253.189,"end":275.146,"text":"我想這個部分我們已經有所說那當然還有當然今天發生就是說我們發現這個海巡這樣的一個不法的事件是絕對不應該的但是也不能因為這個事件而去抹殺到其他的查緝人員跟查緝機關的努力我想還是有合法的海巡同仁包含地方政府都在努力的查緝我要告訴部長"},{"start":276.587,"end":284.634,"text":"部長因為我們不只是食菸啦包括茶蔻的這些成品 半成品 原料還有產製的器具是不是都應該銷毀沒有錯 都應該銷毀但是但是但是我們講牛食藝齁2023年9月齁我們這個"},{"start":292.18,"end":296.264,"text":"前年派人到彰化和美倉庫辦理實驗室被銷毀的時候卻發現我們的查緝人員僅將這些機器都拋棄在廢鐵回收區沒有針對馬達、主機板、主體結構等重要部位進行破壞"},{"start":309.297,"end":333.03,"text":"還把這些高單價的像包裝機這個部分刻意藏匿於這個鐵罐區你們的報告裡面有說為了要避免查獲的私菸原料器具再度流出做非法的用途所以財政部會依菸酒管理法57條沒收或者是沒收之後儘速銷毀那請問部長你有沒有規定一個銷毀的期限"},{"start":335.496,"end":340.001,"text":"我沒有規定應該要做這樣的事情對 她還沒做對 她沒有做表示說沒有徹底自己那至於怎麼樣強化這樣的一個機制財政部也一直在努力然後下個禮拜我們會邀同相關的機關來把制度上更做的經濟我們把這個銷毀把它明訂出來"},{"start":355.117,"end":382.84,"text":"好不好 避免這些東西沒有被銷毀然後又流入市場造成不當的這些人士不孝的這些人士變成他們來練財啦好 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝那再請教部長就是說其實這款事常常發生啦拖龍轉鳳啦 拖天換日啦這些東西把一些比較沒有價值的價值性低的或者是去做更換那所以我這邊要講的就是說"},{"start":384.773,"end":400.251,"text":"事實上就是這些器具跟成品總是能夠逃離執法人員的法眼再度的流入市場甚至有一些已經到了焚化廠但是委外辦理的這些人操作的人"},{"start":402.153,"end":427.717,"text":"原來要銷毀的這些違規的這些菸品或者是器具被偷糧換住然後變成他們私自販賣得利的這樣子的一些情況所以這個問題是顯示說我們原來在查緝上跟銷毀制度上的不夠完整剛剛部長你也提到很多東西沒有明併對不對 沒有強化所以這部分下禮拜就拜託部長"},{"start":428.557,"end":450.635,"text":"把這些我們需要補強的部分把它強化之後好不好讓我們的制度能夠更加的完善謝謝委員的指教我們這個一定把它納入對當然這個查緝銷毀這部分是要強化但是至於說我們的檢舉跟獎勵制度上也要做更全面的修正好的也要做一個更更嚴密的一個制度的設計是的謝謝委員的指教謝謝部長部長請回"},{"start":454.658,"end":458.981,"text":"這還是加一部分 有請我們衛福部邱部長還有國建署的吳署長"},{"start":464.71,"end":493.393,"text":"委員好部長好 署長好這個主管機關是我們衛福部跟國界署那當然我要強調就是說我們不鼓勵抽菸啦但是剛剛很多委員都有提到就是說因為造成因為加熱菸的這樣子的狀況那造成現在走失猖獗走失猖獗那因為這是因為政府的不作為嘛不可以說現在"},{"start":495,"end":521.622,"text":"除了是走私猖獗也是國庫的損失啦變成說讓這些民眾要去用高價購買這些走私菸所以這沒有人樂見啦剛剛我們很多委員都有提出嘛提出說要求說我們計數什麼時間之內能夠完成審查那我想請教說部長跟署長可不可以請你們定出一個時間到底多久才會完成這個審查就是加熱菸的這個部分"},{"start":524.671,"end":542.968,"text":"確定的時間當然我不敢講因為這是審查會的審查裡面的專家學者有沒有針對資料然後做投票的一個過程我想這個部分很多很多的審查都是這樣子所以這要尊重半年之內有沒有辦法 半年"},{"start":543.989,"end":561.545,"text":"我想我們一定在這裡面盡量來完成這樣的一個我們會站在人民的健康、社會的關注以及說國家應該來看看怎麼樣均衡這些健康跟社會問題我們政府就是要來解決問題的我們會盡速來解決這些問題"},{"start":564.688,"end":583.762,"text":"對啦 部長跟署長要請你們再加把勁啦像去年光是加熱煙就增加了1.3倍走失的部分喔這是有查獲的喔那沒有查獲的我們不知道有多少當然因為他還沒有審查過所以基本上他也是屬於要查緝的對對對 沒錯好 謝謝部長跟署長要再請我們海巡署的謝副署長謝副署長請"},{"start":601.673,"end":624.526,"text":"這個警方出估類似的詐領獎金的事件恐怕已經持續五年以上那國庫損失的部分已經高達數億元這個還不包括非法的私菸流入市場但是你們跳出來說詐領的金額沒有高達上億元是媒體錯誤的報導那我想海巡署發生了這麼嚴重的漏洞"},{"start":626.127,"end":652.667,"text":"實在是讓人無法接受應該是要怎麼樣強化這個法紀的教育這些空洞的說辭都沒有辦法為你們為整個海巡署在發生這麼嚴重的這樣子的一個狀況之下嚴重的漏洞你們除了處分這個偵辦的偵查員之外還有沒有什麼其他具體的做法"},{"start":653.428,"end":670.605,"text":"謝謝委員 委員我們除了我們對於危有犯罪絕對零容忍這個涉案被激要我們立即免職另外交保兩位我們列入年底考機要太除另外在精進作法部分所有類案我們做檢舉筆錄的時候隊長要在場"},{"start":672.927,"end":697.445,"text":"要核花檢舉獎金的時候 政風人員要督辦不僅保護當事人身份 也要確認檢舉事實的真實性接下來我們也全面清查類案跟委員報告 我們現在清查目前這個案 彰化地檢署在偵辦這個案子最近三年 台中地檢署有申請只有一個案子石原工廠 核花是171萬元"},{"start":699.446,"end":725.912,"text":"目前我們掌握是這一件那當然我們排除其他案件我們清查中目前包括地緣署也還沒有其他具體的線索只有這一件這一件核發是只有171萬元那如果說講數億元的話對於絕大多數辛苦奉獻的因為時間到了所以我想就是說你還是要這個要挽回大家對海巡署的信心那必須要有些具體作文好不好那你也要為國庫的損失"},{"start":727.532,"end":728.453,"text":"提出合理的交代"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":636,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時44分）謝謝主席，各位列席官員，大家早。有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長早。莊部長，今天是6月19號，目前報稅情況如何？預收金額跟目前的實收數達成率是多少？可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，今年因為所得稅的申報以及繳納的期限延長到6月底，到6月17號為止，綜所稅已經完成申報的有583萬件，大概達成了85%，還有15萬還沒有完成申報，在綜所稅的部分已經完成了88%。至於在稅收的部分，目前我們只有統計到5月底，這個數字在比較的基礎上其實沒有具有太大的意義，因為今年整個繳納的期限延到6月底，所以5月底的數字跟去年同期當然是有一段很大的差距。"],["顏委員寬恒：分別是85%跟88%。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個是到6月17號為止申報的件數。"],["顏委員寬恒：還是要呼籲民眾儘早完成報稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，還剩12天，我們希望在期限內完成。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝部長，回到主題，私菸查緝一直是國人關心的重點，你們私菸查緝作業的報告指出，113年查獲違法菸品1,120萬包，112年查獲數量是1,838萬包，相較減少了718萬包菸，但是件數增加了4,589件。現在看起來件數增加是因為有假發現、真詐財的情況，這個部分新聞都有寫，這不是空口說的，新聞分別都有報導海巡人員涉勾結私菸集團詐領查緝獎金；加熱菸走私年成長86%，海關人員說，政府不徵稅，拖垮基層；還有海巡抓菸爆集體貪污，勾結集團詐領高額獎金，利用街友、低收入戶當人頭，詐領查緝私菸獎金，國庫直接變成他們的提款機，人頭戶原本帳戶收入不多，但是在2019年到2023年間開設的私菸工廠總共被裁罰了7次，罰款五千五百多萬，但是它卻只繳了一萬四千多塊的罰金，這7次的查緝獎金跟檢舉獎金就被領走2,482萬，如果依照海巡單位自己的說法，查緝1,000萬的私菸，最高獎金是480萬，就是48%，比率相當高，2023年查獲的私菸市價是8.59億，獎金發了八千多萬，減少718萬包，但是件數增加4,589件，這很明顯是內神通外鬼，不知道A走了多少錢。部長，太晚發現釀成了這樣子的大錯，這是一個大問題，請教部長，你要如何精進、如何檢討？國庫署有沒有跟你提出相關的檢討報告？可不可以跟我們說明一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，我想第一個關於包數減少，但是查獲的件數增加，有幾個主要的原因，第一個就是原來私菸是透過邊境走私，現在轉化成在國內的地下菸廠來產製私菸，而且這個地下菸廠原來是屬於大規模的、比較大的機器設備，而現在是採小規模，但是地點分散，所以在查緝的難度上確實有提高。至於件數增加，我想這個部分我們已經有所說明……"],["顏委員寬恒：剛剛有說明過了。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然海巡署發生這樣的一個不法事件是絕對不應該的，但是也不能因為這個事件而去抹煞其他查緝人員跟查緝機關的努力，我想還是有合法的海巡同仁，包含地方政府都在努力的查緝。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長，不只是私菸，包括查扣的這些成品、半成品、原料還有產製的器具是不是都應該銷毀？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，都應該銷毀。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們來講一些實例，在2023年9月檢廉派人到彰化和美倉庫辦理實驗設備銷毀的時候，卻發現查緝人員僅將這些機器拋棄在廢鐵回收區，沒有針對馬達、主機板、主體結構等重要部分進行破壞，還把像包裝機這些高單價的部分刻意藏匿於鐵罐區。在你們的報告裡面有說，為了要避免查獲的私菸原料、器具再度流出做非法的用途，所以財政部會依菸酒管理法第五十七條在沒收之後儘速銷毀。請問部長，你有沒有規定一個銷毀的期限？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，應該要做這樣的事情。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是還沒做？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，還沒有做，這表示沒有澈底執行，至於怎麼樣強化這樣的機制，財政部也一直在努力，我們在下個禮拜會邀同相關機關對制度做精進，這個我們會努力的持續來做。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們把這個銷毀制度明定出來，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：避免這些東西沒有被銷毀，然後又流入市場，變成讓一些不肖的人士拿來斂財。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：再請教部長，其實這種事情常常發生，偷龍轉鳳，偷天換日，把一些比較沒有價值的、價值性低的做更換，所以我在這邊要講的就是，事實上，這些器具跟成品總是能夠逃離執法人員的法眼而再度的流入市場，甚至有一些都已經送到焚化廠了，但是委外辦理的這些操作者對原來要銷毀的這些違規菸品或器具偷梁換柱，然後變成他們私自販賣得利，有這樣子的情況，這個問題就顯示我們原來的查緝跟銷毀制度不夠完整，剛剛部長也提到有很多東西沒有明定、沒有強化，對不對？所以這個部分下禮拜再拜託部長強化這些需要補強的部分，讓我們的制度能夠更加的完善，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的指教，我們一定把它納入。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然這個查緝、銷毀的部分是要強化，但是我們的檢舉跟獎勵制度也要做更全面的修正。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，也要設計一個更嚴密的制度。"],["顏委員寬恒：是的。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝部長，部長請回。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：再來是加熱菸的部分，有請衛福部的邱部長還有國健署的吳署長。"],["主席：兩位長官請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長好，署長好。加熱菸的主管機關是衛福部跟國健署，當然我要強調我們不鼓勵抽菸，但是剛剛很多委員都有提到，加熱菸這樣子的狀況造成現在走私猖獗，這是因為政府的不作為，現在走私猖獗也造成國庫的損失，變成民眾要用高價購買這些走私煙，沒有人會樂見，剛剛很多委員都有要求儘速、在什麼時間之內完成審查。我想請教部長跟署長，你們對加熱菸這個部分可不可以訂出一個時間，到底要多久才會完成審查？"],["邱部長泰源：如果要說確定的時間，當然我不敢講，因為這是審查會的審查，裡面的專家學者要進行審查資料然後投票的過程，我想這個部分有很多很多的審查都是這樣子，所以這要尊重……"],["顏委員寬恒：有沒有辦法在半年之內？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們一定儘量來完成，我們會站在增進人民健康的立場，由於社會非常關注，我們來看看怎麼樣解決這些健康跟社會問題，我們政府就是要來解決問題的，我們會儘速來解決這些問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，請部長跟署長要再加把勁，像去年光是走私的加熱菸就增加了1.3倍，這還是有查獲的，我們不知道沒有查獲的有多少。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，因為它還沒有審查過，所以基本上它也是屬於要查緝的範圍。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，沒有錯。好，謝謝部長跟署長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：我再請海巡署的謝副署長。"],["主席：謝副署長請。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝副署長好。警方粗估類似的詐領獎金事件恐怕已經持續5年以上，國庫的損失更是高達數億元，這還不包括流入市場的非法私菸，但是你們跳出來說詐領的金額沒有高達上億元，是媒體錯誤的報導。我想海巡署發生了這麼嚴重的漏洞，實在是讓人無法接受，應該看要怎麼樣強化法紀的教育，而不是講這些空洞的說詞，整個海巡署發生這麼嚴重的漏洞，你們除了處分偵辦的偵查員之外，還有沒有什麼其他具體的作法？"],["謝副署長慶欽：謝謝委員，委員，我們對於違法亂紀絕對零容忍，這個涉案被羈押……"],["顏委員寬恒：你說零容忍，我知道嘛！這是說法，但是要做啊！具體的作為是什麼？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們立即免職，對於交保的兩位，我們列入年底考績要汰除。另外，在精進作法部分，所有類案我們做檢舉筆錄的時候隊長要在場，要核發檢舉獎金的時候政風人員要督辦，不僅保護當事人的身分，也要確認檢舉事實的真實性。接下來我們也全面清查類案，跟委員報告，目前彰化地檢署在偵辦這個案子，最近3年臺中查緝隊有申請的只有1個案子，就是私菸工廠，核發了171萬元，目前我們掌握的是這一件，那當然我們不排除其他案件，我們正在清查中，目前包括地檢署也還沒有其他具體的線索，只有這一件，這一件是只有核發171萬元，如果講數億元的話，對於絕大多數辛苦奉獻的同仁也是不公平的。"],["顏委員寬恒：副署長，我的時間到了，我想你還是要挽回大家對海巡署的信心。"],["謝副署長慶欽：一定會全力以赴。"],["顏委員寬恒：必須要有一些具體作為，好不好？那你也要為國庫的損失提出一個合理的交代，好不好？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，我們一定會全力以赴。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝顏委員的質詢。","下一位請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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請謝謝主席請財政部莊部長 衛福部邱部長兩位部長請"},{"start":34.775,"end":51.424,"text":"兩位部長好 主委院長有宣示長照3.0明年要上路我們看一下 按照衛福部的估算 今年長照支出是343億 明年增加到469億按照長照法的規定 我們的長照支出來自遺產稅 菸稅跟菸捐"},{"start":54.306,"end":77.434,"text":"那可是我們看一下啦我們先看一下這個長照基金長照基金呢今年前五個月呢一族長照基金的四大主要稅收呢來自房地合一稅、菸稅、遺產稅跟證語稅那其實呢都減少了我們看一下房地合一稅呢這個前五個月呢是撥入了140億但是呢跟去年同期減少了44億年減24%然後呢菸稅菸稅也減少了"},{"start":85.497,"end":98.203,"text":"這個雖然預租107億但是年減1.7%這個是長照基金 房地合約稅跟菸稅這個剝落金額都有減少好 那我們再看一下下一張表"},{"start":99.92,"end":112.904,"text":"這個走失嚴重那也造成這個我們長照的財源短少我們從比較110年到113年110年的煙捐跟煙稅有780億然後到113年只剩下684億然後這3年下來短少了97億那請教一下莊部長好了這個煙捐跟煙稅少了97億是好事還是壞事"},{"start":130.949,"end":152.741,"text":"有兩種來看,第一個就是說如果吸菸人口減少的話,那當然就是減少那如果是因為非法,就是所謂的私菸,私菸情況沒有能夠查緝到的話以至於這樣的一個稅或捐沒有能夠課徵到的話,那就是不是好事那部長你認為是哪一種可能性比較大?我們的吸菸率有下降嗎?"},{"start":154.201,"end":174.812,"text":"我想這個部分都有,因為現在大家對健康意識也比較強,那當然我覺得在相關的一些健康的宣導上也一直都努力在做那你認為走私嚴不嚴重?加熱液、電子煙嚴不嚴重?走私的部分呢,不管是我們海關也好,還有這個地方政府也好,都加強的查緝"},{"start":176.293,"end":186.436,"text":"對 那我按照你們的資料啦這個113年你們查獲了這一個菸品件數有1120萬包市價7億然後112年呢 查獲了這一個1747萬包市價8.59億可見呢 走私是非常嚴重的好 那再請教一下這一個我們邱部長好了那走私"},{"start":205.953,"end":229.732,"text":"加熱煙很嚴重 按照衛福部給的資料 財政部給的資料113年違法加熱煙比116年相比增加了130萬包然後到本年5月 查獲的違法加熱煙與去年同期相比又增加了47萬包 接近48萬包"},{"start":231.033,"end":245.836,"text":"然後呢 加熱菸走勢這麼嚴重呢有一個很大原因我想剛剛很多委員都提到了是不是我們現在對於這個加熱菸的這個健康風險評估的審查一直遲遲沒有結果這個是不是一個造成一個很大的原因"},{"start":248.271,"end":277.321,"text":"好 我想報告委員我想這個是有相關有相關對 部長你有認為有相關好 那這個為什麼我看一下你們資料啦現在是有有六家進入健康風險評估的十次審查是不是六家有六家進入十次審查那我看它後面都是進度不一樣進度有一點不一樣對 進度不一樣我看後面都是打三角形打三角形就是審查中嘛"},{"start":278.373,"end":298.599,"text":"那請問一下這個打三角形審查的時候大概是審查多久了這個最長是審查多久了目前最長的審查就是第一家比較完整的審查他是從112年的6月底送進來的就等於是7月的時候送到112年那今年是114年"},{"start":300.359,"end":323.469,"text":"那所以你們審查這個沒有delay嗎?就可以無限期審查下去嗎?我們原則上是希望6個月加6個月但是會扣除中間業者在補件的時間因為那是屬於業者他的不是我們審理的時間所以要給予業者更寬容的時間那所以6加6這個看起來也是超過期限但是我剛剛提到的業者在補件的時間那一段要扣掉"},{"start":324.335,"end":339.117,"text":"因為這個都是我原先審查那其實這個我們不會特別去給你一個期限說你一定要哪個時候審查出來但是這期限也拖太久我問一下邱部長你會不會覺得這期限拖得有點久"},{"start":341.827,"end":362.024,"text":"我想最主要是能和能夠確保風險的問題 這是最重要的問題但是呢 第一個 我是認為啦 署長 YES或NO我覺得就講清楚我們作為行政機關 你YES或NO我覺得講清楚 最怕拖 你不合格你就退掉"},{"start":363.211,"end":388.047,"text":"立決合格就讓他進來讓他進來的好處當然就是這個煙稅跟煙捐其實也增加了這個本來要課的稅本來就應該要課只是因為現在你們沒有讓他合法所以就變成一種走私結果大家也在抽加熱菸但是稅也收不到現在的困境就是這樣子所以我是請教一下邱部長"},{"start":388.567,"end":395.812,"text":"你認為這個從去年112年就有開始審查到現在也超過兩年的時間你有覺得這個審查時間有稍微久了一點嗎"},{"start":398.92,"end":420.254,"text":"當然審查的時間是一件事情另外就審查的流程是不是有延宕這部分因為可能要有給他恢復的一個時間這個我都同意風險評估這個是法律規定的我也同意全民的健康我也都同意我們不會讓行政部門有延宕的"},{"start":421.675,"end":443.02,"text":"但是我是覺得說我們也不要當鴕鳥因為你明明知道說現在加熱菸其實在使用加熱菸的很多從三個方面來那個第一個就是說審查委員的共識把那些規定啊標準大家寫了一個更多的共識第二個在這個部長啊這個我都沒有意見我的意思是說因為"},{"start":445.501,"end":468.18,"text":"你既然有一個風險評估但是呢 就是你yes or no你要跟人家講清楚就是你不要懸在那邊你懸在那邊 我跟你講過了嘛這個走私的照常走私我們該扣的稅也扣不到然後呢 那你就審查在pending那邊那也沒有什麼動作我認為行政機關不能這樣子啦"},{"start":468.988,"end":482.02,"text":"好我想我們一定站在人民的健康以及社會的一個像走私如果因為這樣真的是形成走私那就是不是一個好的狀況我們最是一個社會的問題最要解決"},{"start":482.779,"end":508.933,"text":"我們政府就是要解決問題的我想任何問題出來我們就來解決請委員放心我們一定用最快的努力最大的努力來解決這一個大家所關心的問題所以今天不是是催促你說你一個月兩個月三個月就會要有結果出來我們會盡快開相關的會議絕對不會延遲任何的行程因為拖延拖太久了這就變成是說我們行政機關的問題"},{"start":510.194,"end":534.095,"text":"所以我一直覺得說你如果覺得說那你交出來的報告不好不對你就退回去你就直接換個差也可以嘛因為兩年前那個時候我也是未還的立法委員我很清楚這怎麼組成的那都按照辦法在做可是一旦用這種審查的方式其實它的困難度就會真的會增加很多像美國的第一個Amin審呢"},{"start":536.929,"end":561.814,"text":"美國審第一個加熱菸審了四年多所以你覺得兩年還好就對了我們不是依那個為那是因為美國他剛剛一直審那其實我們是有這個基礎在審其實應該不用到四年的時間吧對不對我已經從一直跟他報告我們一定用好意到社會的問題好意到整個"},{"start":563.678,"end":582.93,"text":"民情還有考慮到專業考慮到人民的健康的綜合下我們一定依法來辦理我覺得都有共識啦全民的健康那也顧慮到有社會的共識然後呢我們也希望說合法化之後呢我們的菸捐菸稅能夠增加因為現在長照的確也需要"},{"start":584.49,"end":610.735,"text":"這個其實都支持但是我的問點或是很多的立委的重點其實在於是說因為你在那邊不上不下太久了那個三角形已經放很久了嘛那你也不給個答案我認為這樣不對你覺得不合格你就退回去那你如果覺得可以你覺得你覺得可以那你就讓它合法化我覺得應該是這樣子做才對啦我覺得不能夠一直pending在那邊然後你也不做任何的決定啊是好 那我問一下這個莊部長"},{"start":613.759,"end":639.316,"text":"我們是不是有發個文啊給這個菸商啊請教一下說為持續提升茶器、菸品含加熱菸的效能還有防堵網路販賣違法菸品請菸商提出著建與建議這個文的用意在哪裡啊我想對於茶器對我們精進茶器而不遺餘力那當然這個部分我們也想聽一下他們的一些意見"},{"start":640.704,"end":664.499,"text":"那為什麼 我很好奇為什麼會發文給菸商你是認為說 因為他們比較知道說這個走私危害到他們的這個正常的營業是這樣子嗎所以你就發文給這些菸商因為我是覺得產生不發文給菸商然後去問說怎麼去防範走私這個有點奇怪啦我想我們是徵詢相關的意見然後來做我們精進的一個參考"},{"start":667.401,"end":690.497,"text":"那當然應該我們也知道其他國家也都有合法的販售所以我們想請看看他們能不能提供那這些其他國家在查緝上面的做法做我們的一個參考 是這個應該是我們自己內部你包含警政署 海巡署我們應該去做處理的這個內部我們也會我們下周就會再開一個會然後請他們大家提供一些更好的意見那院長有給你回覆嗎這個國庫署是不是來說明好"},{"start":697.101,"end":722.062,"text":"我們發函,那菸商他們也都有提供相關的意見但是意見大部分就是希望說整個茶器走私是主決於官外然後如果在市面上的話,就是在市面上的相關市場或者是販售地點去加強茶器這個部長不好意思,我是覺得這個是凸顯了我們對於這個茶器試菸"},{"start":723.919,"end":737.75,"text":"可能齁這個在力道上面齁有不足的地方結果呢我們自己內部當然你說你內部當然是有去做檢討去做聯繫我看你們還要加開什麼匯報之類的但是去問到這個菸砂我就覺得說好像是變成我們行政機關去"},{"start":742.753,"end":757.461,"text":"這個這方面查緝私菸好像有做不到的地方還去問菸商跟我們講一下要怎麼去查緝,我覺得這個很奇怪啦是,謝謝委員的指教,我們再來參考好,謝謝主席謝謝李委員的質詢,現在請顏光文委員質詢,請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時32分）謝謝主席。請財政部莊部長、衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：兩位部長請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["李委員坤城：兩位部長好！卓院長有宣示長照3.0明年要上路。我們看一下，按照衛福部的估算，今年長照支出是343億，明年將增加到469億。按照長照法的規定，長照財源來自遺產稅、菸稅及菸捐。我們再看一下長照基金，今年前5個月挹注長照基金的四大主要稅收來自房地合一稅、菸稅、遺產稅及贈與稅，其實都減少了。房地合一稅前5個月是撥入了140億，但是跟去年同期相比減少了44億，年減24%；菸稅也減少了，雖然挹注了107億，但是年減1.7%；這是長照基金，房地合一稅及菸稅撥入的金額都有減少。","我們再看一下，走私嚴重也造成長照財源短少，我們比較110年到113年，110年的菸捐及菸稅有780億，到113年只剩下684億，這3年下來短少了97億。請教一下莊部長好了，菸捐及菸稅少了97億是好事還是壞事？"],["莊部長翠雲：有兩種來看，第一個就是如果吸菸人口減少的話，當然就是好事，如果是因為非法（所謂的私菸）情況沒有能夠查緝到，以至於這樣的稅或捐沒有能夠課徵到的話，就不是好事。"],["李委員坤城：部長，你認為是哪一種可能性比較大？我們的吸菸率有下降嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想都有，因為現在大家對健康意識也比較強，當然我覺得在相關的健康宣導上也一直都努力在做。"],["李委員坤城：你認為走私嚴不嚴重？走私加熱菸、電子煙的情況嚴不嚴重？"],["莊部長翠雲：走私的部分，不管是海關也好，還有地方政府也好，都在加強的查緝。"],["李委員坤城：對。按照你們的資料，113年你們查獲的菸品件數有1,120萬包，市價7億；112年查獲了1,747萬包，市價8.59億，可見走私是非常嚴重的。","再請教一下邱部長好了，走私加熱菸很嚴重！按照財政部給的資料，113年查獲的違法加熱菸與112年相比，增加了130萬包；到本年5月，查獲的違法加熱菸與去年同期相比，又增加了四十七萬多包，接近48萬包。加熱菸走私這麼嚴重有一個很大原因，剛剛很多委員也都提到了，是不是我們對於加熱菸的健康風險評估審查一直遲遲沒有結果？這個是不是一個很大的造成原因？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想這個是有相關。"],["李委員坤城：有相關。"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["李委員坤城：部長，你也認為有相關。我看一下你們的資料，現在是有6家進入健康風險評估的實質審查，是不是？6家。"],["邱部長泰源：有6家進入實質審查，但是……"],["李委員坤城：我看他後面都是打……"],["邱部長泰源：進度不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：進度有點不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：對，進度不一樣，我看後面都是打三角形，打三角形就是審查中，請問一下這個打三角形的審查中大概是審查多久了？"],["邱部長泰源：署長幫我說明。"],["李委員坤城：這個最長是審查多久了？"],["吳署長昭軍：目前最長的審查就是第1家比較完整的審查，他是從112年6月底送進來的，就等於是7月的時候送到……"],["李委員坤城：112年，今年是114年……"],["吳署長昭軍：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們審查這個沒有deadline嗎？這可以無限期審查下去嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們原則上是希望6個月加6個月，但是會扣除中間業者在補件的時間，因為那是屬於業者的時間，不是我們審理的時間，所以要給予業者更寬容的時間。"],["李委員坤城：所以6加6，這個看起來也是超過期限了。"],["吳署長昭軍：但是我剛剛提到的，業者在補件的時間那一段要扣掉。"],["李委員坤城：因為這個都是委員在審查……"],["吳署長昭軍：是。"],["李委員坤城：其實我們不會特別去給你一個期限，說你一定要哪個時候審查出來，但是這個期限也拖太久了。我問一下邱部長，你會不會覺得這個期限拖得有點久？"],["吳署長昭軍：我想最主要是如何能夠確保風險的問題……"],["李委員坤城：這很重要……"],["吳署長昭軍：這是最重要的問題……"],["李委員坤城：對，但是第一個……"],["吳署長昭軍：對於期限，當然大家有些看法。"],["李委員坤城：署長，Yes或No，我覺得就講清楚，我們作為行政機關，Yes或No，我覺得要講清楚，最怕拖，你覺得不合格，就退掉，你覺得合格，就讓它進來，讓它進來的好處當然就是菸稅及菸捐也增加了，本來要課的稅本來就應該要課，只是因為現在你們沒有讓它合法，所以變成用走私，結果大家也在抽加熱菸，但是稅也收不到，現在的困境就是這樣子嘛！所以我請教一下邱部長，這個從去年112年就開始審查，到現在也超過兩年的時間，你覺得這個審查時間有稍微久了一點了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然審查的時間是一件事情，另外，審查的流程是不是有延宕，這部分因為可能要給它回復的時間。"],["李委員坤城：這個我都同意，風險評估是法律規定的我也都同意，全民的健康我也都同意。"],["邱部長泰源：我們不會讓行政部門有延宕的狀況。"],["李委員坤城：但是我覺得我們也不要當鴕鳥，因為你明明知道現在使用加熱菸的人很多。"],["邱部長泰源：我們從三個方面來解決，第一個就是審查委員的共識，那些規定、標準大家取得更多的共識；第二個，在法規方面，我們檢討……"],["李委員坤城：部長，這個我都沒有意見，我的意思是，你既然有一個風險評估，但是Yes或No你要跟人家講清楚，你不要懸在那邊，你懸在那邊，我剛才講過了，走私的照常走私，我們該扣的稅也扣不到，審查就pending在那邊，也沒有什麼動作，我認為行政機關不能這樣子啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們一定站在人民的健康以及社會的……如果因為這樣真的造成走私多，那就不是一個好的狀況，這是一個社會的問題需要解決，我們政府就是要解決問題的，我想任何問題出來我們就來解決，請委員放心，我們一定用最大的努力來解決這一個大家所關心的問題。"],["李委員坤城：今天不是催促你說一個月、兩個月、三個月就要有結果出來。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會儘快開相關的會議，絕對不會delay任何的行程。"],["李委員坤城：因為拖延太久了就變成是行政機關的問題，我一直認為，你如果覺得它交出來報告不好、不對，你就退回去，你就直接畫個叉也可以嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：因為兩年前我也是衛環委員會的立法委員，我很清楚這是怎麼組成的，也都按照辦法在做，可是一旦用這種審查的方式，其實它的困難度真的會增加很多，像美國……"],["吳署長昭軍：美國審第一個加熱菸審了四年多。"],["李委員坤城：所以你覺得兩年還好就對了？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們不是依那個為……"],["李委員坤城：那是因為美國剛開始審，我們有這個基礎在審，其實應該不用到四年的時間吧？署長，你的意思應該是這樣子吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我已經一直跟大家報告，我們一定會綜合考慮到社會的問題、考慮到整個民情，還有考慮到專業、考慮到人民的健康，我們一定儘速依法來辦理。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得都有共識啦！全民的健康，也顧慮到社會的共識，我們也希望合法化之後我們的菸捐、菸稅能夠增加，因為現在長照的確也需要，這個其實都支持，但是我的問題點或是很多立委的重點是在於，因為你在那邊不上不下太久了，那個三角形已經放很久了，你也不給個答案，我認為這樣不對。你覺得不合格，你就退回去；你如果覺得可以，那你就讓它合法化，我覺得應該是這樣子做才對，不能夠一直pending在那邊，然後你也不做任何的決定。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["李委員坤城：我問一下莊部長，你們是不是有發個文給菸商？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：為持續提升查緝菸品（含加熱菸）的效能，還有防堵網路販賣違法菸品，請菸商提出卓見與建議。發這個文的用意在哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們對於精進查緝不遺餘力，這個部分我們也想聽一下他們的一些意見。"],["李委員坤城：我很好奇為什麼會發文給菸商？你是認為，因為他們比較知道走私危害到他們的正常營業，所以你就發文給這些菸商，是這樣嗎？因為我覺得財政部發文給菸商，然後去問怎麼去防範走私，這個有點奇怪啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是徵詢相關的意見作為我們精進的一個參考，因為我們也知道其他國家都有合法的販售，所以我們想看看他們能不能提供其他國家在查緝上面的作法，作為我們的參考。"],["李委員坤城：這個應該是你們自己內部，包含警政署、海巡署應該要去做處理的。"],["莊部長翠雲：內部我們也會，我們下周就會再開一個會，請他們提供一些更好的意見。"],["李委員坤城：那菸商有給你回復嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：請國庫署說明。"],["陳署長柏誠：我們發函，菸商他們也都有提供相關的意見，但是意見大部分大概是希望整個查緝走私阻絕於關外，如果在市面上的話，就是在市面上的相關市場或者是販售地點去加強查緝。"],["李委員坤城：部長，不好意思，我覺得這個是凸顯了你們對於查緝私菸可能在力道上面有不足的地方。當然你說你們內部有去做檢討、去做聯繫，我看你們還要再開什麼會報之類的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，還會繼續做。"],["李委員坤城：但是去問到菸商，我覺得好像變成我們行政機關在查緝私菸方面有做不到的地方，所以還去問菸商，請他們跟你們講一下要怎麼去查緝，我是覺得這個很奇怪啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們再來參考。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},{"id":"162714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a730c057932b8071ce5c914d80f272b5bb4fe48e1f12328ce24198a39e653668eca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:45:44 - 10:54:38","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團、（三）委員張智倫等17人、（四）委員葉元之等21人及（五）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團、（二）委員鄭天財Sra 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謝謝我想跟委員報告照新住民基本法第二條它是擴大定義所以它把婚姻移民但是跟身分別之後轉化為取得國籍國人身分那是兩個是不一樣完全無關對 因為也就是說取得"},{"start":214.771,"end":234.028,"text":"不管他現在有沒有取得身份證有沒有取得台灣的國籍取得身份證有要件 例如說要居留我知道 那是另外不管他今天已經取得中華民國國籍的身份他依然 我們依然把他定義為新住民照目前基本法的定義是這樣子目前基本法的定義是這樣子這個就是我們現在覺得說最"},{"start":239.073,"end":259.392,"text":"我個人認為這個新住民基本法在這個定義上面一些政客現在想要在這邊號召說我們這些外籍配偶大家來支持我然後訂立這樣子的新住民基本法事實上新住民基本法新住民這樣子的身份很多人他就類比他把原住民就拿來類比新住民認為說把原住民的保障那就新住民就類比保障"},{"start":260.626,"end":287.479,"text":"但是新住民的身份原住民是因為這塊土地上面的他們這個身份的取得是因為他們的血統所以他們比所有後來移民者早居住在這塊土地的適時的民族以及他們整個整個族群整個整個族群民族社會的聚集他所受到這個這個現在現代社會的這個這個壓迫跟歷史上面的壓迫讓我們大家予以保障"},{"start":288.479,"end":317.326,"text":"但是新住民的身份他能夠繼承嗎我因為我這一代是新住民所以我下一代還是新住民下一代新住民的下一代還是新住民原住民過時代還是原住民新住民可以過時代還是新住民嗎市長謝謝委員我想新住民他的定義應該是要融入成為我國新住民因為新住民跟原住民不一樣新住民本身是一個過渡性他基本上就是一個過渡性我們立法的目的是為了"},{"start":318.798,"end":326.409,"text":"我們給他差異性這個待遇的目的是為了解決他現在實質上的困境而不是因為他的身份給他標籤化"},{"start":329.841,"end":347.726,"text":"對不對所以我個人認為說在這個整個立法過程在這個思維上面有很大的問題這樣子的問題我們想像現在台灣社會已經沒有人在分本省人外省人我們自己也沒有人會問說那個人是本省人還是外省人都沒有這個省級的問題了"},{"start":348.846,"end":372.222,"text":"假設當初有外省政科在這裡說我們要成立一個外省人基本法我們要成立一個外省人的這個發展委員會那到今天為止台灣還在分本省人外省人我們成立新住民發展署我們最要避免的就是未來我們因為這個基本法的設立不當導致未來這個新住民被標籤化"},{"start":380.882,"end":404.289,"text":"這是應該我們要避免的所以這個我就先就這個新住民的基本法因為我們這個整個立法過程的粗糙讓我們這個我們作為司法法治委員會的成員幾乎沒有時間沒有機會可以在這裡面討論這個新住民基本法就在這邊花點時間來談我個人對於這個新住民基本法的一些看法"},{"start":406.331,"end":431.053,"text":"就今天的法令來講我覺得要通過其實因為新住民基本法已經通過了其實今天的這個有關這個組織法它其實都是依據新住民基本法裡面尤其是像看到第二條第二條它的內容幾乎就是就是按照新住民基本法裡面的一條的一款一款下去列相應的這些它的這些長理事項啦但是剛剛很多委員都提到就是這個"},{"start":432.074,"end":458.541,"text":"各個版本除了只有羅美玲委員的版本齁他很清楚的就是沒有相關的規定之外所有的民眾黨的版本國民黨委員的版本全部在第三款裡面設定的新住民國家考試之規劃執行督導講助全部都要由新住民發展組織這個新住民發展組來都變成他的執掌國家考試的規劃這個按照憲法"},{"start":461.291,"end":476.098,"text":"按照憲法這個五權憲法既然是你們國民黨的生文發明的考試權就是獨立屬於考試權全部考試你現在可以說那我們土木工程考試以後就由這個工程會來辦我們這個相關的經濟類科考試以後由經濟部來辦"},{"start":485.3,"end":512.759,"text":"所以這一條的法令 今天如果要討論 倒是要逐條這一條有關 這個還 我不去談什麼未來他會不會加分 他會不會加分 他的子女會不會加分這個都不是重點 重點是憲法就考試權 它就是屬於考試院 屬於考選部的你在這裡用一個組織法 把這個考試的權 舉辦考試的權益把它移到這個 我們的內政部 這個真是荒謬到極點"},{"start":514.608,"end":533.087,"text":"所以這個我希望等一下進入這個如果今天要進入這個法案的討論的時候我希望在這一點上面這個是憲法的原則我希望說這部分能夠各黨派大家要自治這個部分不要把它不要為了黨派立場堅持這樣子違憲的條文 以上好 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謝謝主席 那先請內政部移民署 謝謝好 請移民署署長"},{"start":15.152,"end":36.463,"text":"委員好 署長你好我想要跟你討論一下關於所謂新住民考試這件事情我先說一下我的認識再請署長給予指教因為剛剛麥玉珍委員一直在追這一題喔我認為她對於這件事情一定有很大的誤解甚至指控你們是同樂會這件事情喔一 我想請問一下現在在民眾黨黨團還有國民黨黨團的版本裡面第二條的第二款第三款他們的寫法是這樣說的他說"},{"start":43.746,"end":63.434,"text":"新住民國家考試之規劃執行督導及獎勵他認為這個是相關的新住民發展署日後要負責的業務內容之一可是我的理解是不管他是來自於除了中國以外來自於哪一個國家的新住民"},{"start":63.834,"end":80.425,"text":"一定是要拿到台灣的身份證之後他就可以參與國家考試專業人員的認證考試然後他就可以因為這個考試的合格取得某一個公務人員的職位或者是在台灣以專業的身份進行社會參與我的理解是對的嗎"},{"start":81.586,"end":95.856,"text":"在這裡跟委員做一個報告其實根據我們憲法五權分立的一個原則其實國家考試權它是屬於所謂的考試院這是第一點我要做一個說明那第二個部分的話就是說"},{"start":96.556,"end":112.268,"text":"在憲法裡面他有很明確的規定就是說我們不得因為這個性別種族身份而為不同的對待所以在我們新住民基本法的第二條第三款裡面他去提到這個部分在"},{"start":113.109,"end":126.753,"text":"在這個相關的新住民只要是這個取得身份涉及十年之後他是有參加國家考試的權利的取得身份涉及十年那這樣我就不懂了你認為因為你們一定研究過民眾黨團的版本跟國民黨團的版本"},{"start":128.894,"end":150.042,"text":"他們之所以這樣寫,難道他們是希望,我不確定啦,因為我沒有去請教過他們難道他們是希望要為新住民朋友爭取,在沒有拿到身份證,而且沒有符合你剛剛的條件之前國家就必須要開一個特別的門,給新住民參與國家考試難道他們是想要這樣做嗎?那如果這樣做,會不會有你剛剛說違憲的問題?"},{"start":152.023,"end":167.71,"text":"所以基本上我們認為這個跟憲法上是有所衝突的啦所以我們認為就是說不可以因為這個特殊的身份而這個他只要取得了身份涉及了之後他就是國人應該跟國人的權益是一致的不應該為特別的一個對待"},{"start":168.51,"end":194.053,"text":"好那這個等一下我們來討論的時候我認為這個問題很大那另外我也想問他可能想像另外一種國家考試你聽聽看就是他不參與公務人員的考試他可能參加所謂證照例如說美容師啊美髮師啊廚師啊像這樣的專業證照他可能認定這也是國家考試的一部分可不可以請您說明一下當然我知道是考試院或是全序部相關的業務但是就你們在法規上如何去做一些討論"},{"start":195.634,"end":212.847,"text":"這個應該是屬於所謂的是不是所謂的專門職業技術的這種考試這種考試它相關的一個規範其實坦白講我不是那麼的清楚好沒錯我們等一下也許要進入主條討論也許我們要討論這些內容的時候我認為這些事情是我們要釐清的"},{"start":213.567,"end":229.745,"text":"不是一個委員在質詢台上大吼大叫好像看起來是在為新住民爭取權益但我認為他創造了更難以討論的模糊空間我想這件事情你剛說明非常清楚我們也會持續關注來 謝謝移民署那接下來有請內政部次長 謝謝"},{"start":236.291,"end":240.796,"text":"好 謝謝次長我想要跟次長分享一下關於新住民的權益我知道我們過往內政部做了非常非常多的事情下一張我們接下來討論關於新住民的運動需求我想跟次長分享一些很溫馨可愛的案例在頭影片的左手邊是台灣杯足球賽他所協助的是移民 移工 新住民等等"},{"start":258.254,"end":285.833,"text":"因為他們在台灣有相關運動社團的需求那於是他們有自主組織了一些團隊然後自己還舉辦比賽甚至這個規模越來越大他現在甚至有個正式的名字叫台灣杯足球賽那當然這件事情呢過往在體育署也好在外交部也好他們都有積極的協助那過未來我還其實要拜託內政部這邊我們如何協同體育署或是外交部積極給予更多協助因為未來運動部要成立了"},{"start":287.854,"end":302.451,"text":"現在運動部的規劃裡面呢我的想像啦它可能必須要放在重規或是運動休閒或是社區運動或是運動健康其實這邊只是先友善的提醒跟拜託內政部後續在運動部掛牌成立之後如何部會之間的討論跟對接"},{"start":305.514,"end":333.056,"text":"這邊也特別謝謝委員那我想其實我們在跟相關部會在討論的業務分工其實包括在教育部分因為現在還沒有分家所以在教育部分包括運動比較少討論到我們是討論到他的教育例如說通益的一些訓練等等的那我想這個新的項目部分我們後續還是我會跟目前教育部還是會來討論這個分工好 這個部分就要拜託我們後續可以一起來努力了好 謝謝那接下來有請全序部 謝謝"},{"start":336.141,"end":355.79,"text":"次長請回謝謝主席我還有時間你突然站起來嚇我一跳我聽到你說謝謝我還沒還沒好 全序部這邊我要先謝謝全序部我們來討論一個事情當然今天要拜託您把問題帶回去因為可能不是您的工作層級可以回答不過沒有關係我把問題反映出來第一個我們看到考試院有發布"},{"start":356.61,"end":378.179,"text":"公務人員請假規則修正草案在6月16號的時候裡面很重要的事情是把身心調試假放進去了資料委員爭取了很久總算放進去了但是我們看到相關配套我們有一點擔心我們先提出來拜託你們待會去討論怎麼說呢你們說身心這個相關的法規說身心調試假要納入試假病假"},{"start":379.6,"end":394.834,"text":"來計算他的寫法是這樣可是如果我們來看到公務人員考積法實行細則裡面他說市價並價合計超過14天者考積不得列為假等所以原本本來是每億的身心條市價他如果又被這一條卡住"},{"start":396.135,"end":415.3,"text":"会不会有另外的身心压力当然我认为这都需要配套跟讨论因为我看到你们其实有一个美意我们来看一下在这个公务人员考接法实行细则里面第四条有写到应该要扣除家庭照顾假生理假还有安胎室友也就是说我们在制定相关法规的时候"},{"start":415.68,"end":440.289,"text":"我们知道有更多基层公务人员的需求是希望包含这些但不要被并入所谓市价并价14天考机便宜的所以身心调试价假设真的列为市价但是还要跟这个卡住所以要拜托你们待会去研议好不好我们先预先把配套做好让我们真的想要协助公务员并且真的让身心调试价的美意在未来执行的时候它真的是可以往好的方向发展"},{"start":442.079,"end":462.925,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們呃這次公務員請假規則的修正草案裡面其實呃已經有明定說身心調試假不可以影響公務員的考積所以但是因為他跟實行細則他一般把他放進試假裡所以雖然利益良善但是他回到實行細則他又卡住了好不好好就拜託你們帶回去討論好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時38分）謝謝主席。先請內政部移民署，謝謝。"],["主席：請移民署署長。"],["林署長宏恩：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長，你好。我想要跟你討論一下，關於所謂新住民考試這件事情。我先說一下我的認識，再請署長給予指教，因為剛剛麥玉珍委員一直在追這一題，我認為他對於這件事情一定有很大的誤解，甚至指控你們是同樂會。我想請問一下，現在在民眾黨黨團還有國民黨黨團的版本裡面，第二條第一項第三款的寫法是：「新住民國家考試之規劃、執行、督導及獎助」，他們認為這是新住民發展署日後要負責的業務內容之一。可是我的理解是，除了中國以外，不管他是來自於哪一個國家的新住民，一定要拿到臺灣的身分證之後，才可以參與國家考試、專業人員的認證考試，然後他就可以因為考試合格取得某一個公務人員職位，或者在臺灣以專業的身分進行社會參與。我的理解是對的嗎？"],["林署長宏恩：在這裡跟委員報告，根據憲法五權分立的原則，國家考試權屬於考試院，這是第一點我要說明的。第二個，憲法裡面有很明確的規定，不得因為性別、種族、身分而為不同對待，所以在新住民發展署組織法第二條第一項第三款提到，只要是新住民取得身分、設籍十年之後，就有參加國家考試的權利……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，取得身分、設籍10年，這樣我就不懂了，因為你們一定研究過民眾黨黨團和國民黨黨團的版本，他們之所以這樣寫，我不確定，因為我沒有去請教過他們，難道他們是希望要為新住民朋友爭取在沒有拿到身分證，而且沒有符合你剛剛說的條件之前，國家就必須要開一個特別的門給新住民參與國家考試。難道他們是想要這樣做嗎？如果這樣做，會不會有你剛剛說的違憲問題？"],["林署長宏恩：基本上，我們認為這個跟憲法是有所衝突的，所以我們認為不可以因為特殊的身分，他只要取得身分、設籍之後就是國人，應該跟國人的權益是一致的，不應該為特別的對待。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個等一下我們再來討論，我認為這個問題很大。另外，我也想問，他可能想像是另外一種國家考試，你聽聽看，就是他不參與公務人員考試，他可能參加的是所謂的證照，譬如美容師、美髮師、廚師等，像這樣的專業證照，他可能認定這也是國家考試的一部分，可不可以請你說明一下？當然我知道這是考試院或是銓敘部相關的業務，但是就你們在法規上如何去做一些討論？"],["林署長宏恩：這個應該是屬於所謂的專門職業技術考試，這種考試相關的規範，其實坦白講，我不是那麼清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，我們等一下也許要進入逐條討論，討論這些內容的時候，我認為這些事情是我們要釐清的，不是一個委員在質詢臺上大吼大叫，好像看起來是在為新住民爭取權益，但我認為他創造了更難以討論的模糊空間，這件事情你剛剛說明得非常清楚，我們也會持續關注，謝謝移民署。"],["林署長宏恩：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來有請內政部次長，謝謝。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝次長，我想要跟次長分享一下關於新住民的權益，我知道過往內政部做了非常非常多的事情，接下來要討論關於新住民的運動需求，我想跟次長分享一些很溫馨可愛的案例。在投影片的左手邊是台灣盃足球賽，所協助的是移民、移工、新住民等等，因為他們在臺灣有相關運動社團的需求，於是他們自主組織了一些團隊，然後自己還舉辦比賽，這個規模越來越大，現在甚至有一個正式的名字叫台灣盃足球賽。當然這件事情過往在體育署也好，在外交部也好，他們都有積極的協助，未來我還要拜託內政部這邊，我們如何協同體育署或是外交部積極給予更多協助？因為未來運動部要成立了，現在運動部的規劃裡面，我的想像是它可能必須要放在綜規、運動休閒、社區運動或是運動健康，其實這邊只是先友善地提醒跟拜託內政部，後續在運動部掛牌成立之後，部會之間如何討論跟對接？"],["吳次長堂安：在這邊也特別謝謝委員，我們跟相關部會在討論業務分工，包括在教育部分，因為現在還沒有分家，運動比較少討論到，我們是討論到他的教育，例如通譯的一些訓練等等。這個新的項目部分，我們後續還是會跟教育部來討論這個分工。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分要拜託你們後續可以一起來努力，謝謝。"],["吳次長堂安：沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來有請銓敘部，次長請回。我要先謝謝銓敘部，我們來討論一個事情，今天要拜託你把問題帶回去，因為可能不是你的工作層級可以回答，不過沒有關係，我把問題反映出來。第一個，我看到考試院在6月16日的時候有發布公務人員請假規則修正草案，裡面很重要的事情是把身心調適假放進去了，思瑤委員爭取了很久，總算放進去了。但是我們看到相關配套有點擔心，我們先提出來拜託你們帶回去討論，怎麼說呢？相關法規提到身心調適假要納入事假、病假來計算，它的寫法是這樣，可是公務人員考績法施行細則裡面規定事假、病假合計超過14天者，考績不得列為甲等，所以本來是美意的身心調適假，如果又被這一條卡住，會不會有另外的身心壓力？當然，我認為這都需要配套跟討論，因為我看到你們其實有一個美意，在公務人員考績法施行細則第四條有提到，應該要扣除家庭照顧假、生理假及安胎事由，也就是在制定相關法規的時候，我們知道更多基層公務人員的需求是希望包含這些，但不要被併入事假、病假14天，考績變乙等。假設身心調適假真的列為事假，但是又跟這個卡住，所以要拜託你們帶回去研議，好不好？我們先預先把配套做好，我們真的想要協助公務員，並且真的讓身心調適假的美意，在未來執行的時候是可以往好的方向發展。"],["張專門委員菀玲：跟委員報告，我們這次的公務人員請假規則修正草案裡面，其實已經有明定身心調適假不可以影響公務人員的考績，所以這個部分的保障……"],["陳委員培瑜：但是這部分你們在施行細則把它放進事假裡，所以雖然是立意良善，但是它回到施行細則又卡住了，拜託你們帶回去討論，好不好？"],["張專門委員菀玲：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請沈發惠委員發言。我們順便宣告一下：待會在李柏毅委員詢答後，我們休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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第二個剛剛部長說 起訴書你都看過了嘛對吧"},{"start":256.847,"end":268.524,"text":"剛剛你講到起訴書有描述對國家安全外交傷害很大嘛那代表部長起訴書看過了嘛對吧是好2022年"},{"start":270.444,"end":294.824,"text":"外交電報屏外洩駐美代表蕭美琴很生氣啊那個時候我們的副總...現在的副總統當時的駐美代表非常火大我們駐美代表處的機密外洩造成美國的不信任結果洩密的來源不是駐美代表處部長你知不知道當時洩密的來源是哪裡"},{"start":297.011,"end":317.022,"text":"就這個個案我不清楚真的喔那個部長你回去再把起訴書再把它看得更詳細一點看完我相信你會掌握更清楚的線索所以我一開始我才開宗明義的請教你嘛何仁杰他搞出來的洞對我們的傷害有多大"},{"start":317.85,"end":346.508,"text":"因為傷害造成了法律責任、政治責任我們追究那但是,與此同時怎麼去修補這個傷害也是很重要的事嘛你一定要先知道傷害在哪裡才知道要如何修補嘛我的思考邏輯是這個樣子啦對,才能做好損害控管所以,2022年我們的駐美代表蕭美琴很生氣的這件事情"},{"start":347.611,"end":357.717,"text":"那時候瘋傳媒啊還寫一個評論外交電報評外洩啊蕭美琴該火大的對象就是她您知不知道那個她是誰啊這個報導裡面有寫啊是 吳釗燮嘛欸 這個報導裡面就是吳釗燮嘛那2022年警鈴都已經響了2022年警鈴都已經響了"},{"start":376.753,"end":401.667,"text":"結果呢 等到真的出事了真的出事了結果這個傢伙還賴在位子上我老實講讓我覺得真的是嘆為觀止啊不知道該怎麼樣啊 形容那藉由質詢部長這件事情因為啊 那個起訴書上面所寫的內容指證歷歷啦我們哪些外交活動"},{"start":403.241,"end":431.133,"text":"被吳釗燮旁邊養的共諜搞得亂七八糟的上面都有寫啦我希望部長還有外交部的同仁辛苦啦前面的人捅的馬蜂窩我們在第一線辛苦的外交同仁現在要收拾善後因為最近在接見一些美國友人跟智庫的時候他們也很關心這件事"},{"start":432.611,"end":456.038,"text":"我們相信台灣這邊的官員跟他們講很多事結果台灣官員旁邊養的共諜把他跑去跟北京講這對我們外交傷害非常的嚴重這種關係的修補漏洞把他補起來都是非常重要的事部長你同意嗎"},{"start":457.464,"end":474.245,"text":"同意好啊加油啊加油啊希望接下來上次你所提到的你們有關於啊人事特殊安全查核制度的改革能夠早一點落實不要再發生這樣的事情了好 謝謝好 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老闆今天我們要討論新住民發展法裡面 我覺得每一個有每一個意見我們都要去尊重 因為說實在你如果來到這裡 你自己有自己的主觀意識也不好我們修一個法 能夠更好 欠一塊修不對的"},{"start":45.213,"end":64.022,"text":"可以讓大家想出更好的辦法像我今天要跟你說的就是我們的新住民剛才我們的董事也說過要加分,既然他已經是台灣人的身份證了這個加分的時候對我的意見來說,我覺得非常不適合"},{"start":74.465,"end":75.608,"text":"因為我認為 大家都愛中華民國的台灣才會來到中華民國的台灣生活"},{"start":85.336,"end":91.902,"text":"在這個規定當中會揭出他的新聞證不是說今天你進來台灣明天就可以揭出新聞證是要等久以來的時間才有辦法去揭出新聞證揭出新聞證就是標示他是中華民國台灣人的新聞證的新聞"},{"start":112.359,"end":117.844,"text":"所以他站在他的新聞上,就表示中華民國所有的福利所有的可以收錢,台灣人都可以收到的福利今天,我們就是說,要怎麼拿這個法"},{"start":131.156,"end":142.439,"text":"太好了,因為我所了解的,在我們這裡,你如果覺得說數的跟中的,你們常常都會覺得說是政務的論用,還是常務的論用,但是在這幾宗我們的司法裡面,台北我們譬如說"},{"start":155.982,"end":180.814,"text":"觀光署跟健保署 都用政務任用的啦在這個規定當中 我覺得三級的機關裡面 本質上我們都會用常務任用嘛 但是在非有做這個規定所以我們可以開放政務任用 或是可以用出"},{"start":181.994,"end":185.977,"text":"更好的人才所以今天我們所討論的來賓在這裡我要跟你說的就是常務任用是看來賓有什麼事在13"},{"start":196.806,"end":202.47,"text":"要不然在規定裡面 最有任用的法條裡面要不然在這個規定當中 我們可以法條裡面 可以寫出來 政府可以比較堅韌"},{"start":215.858,"end":221.582,"text":"因為我覺得這裡面的過程有時候會覺得說要說清楚沒亂吵吵你跟現在想要合作的想要做的最少有七八十項如果改良後改良後七八十項的時候人員就要加重金要跟一百人"},{"start":243.058,"end":270.671,"text":"所以在這個過程當中,我就是要跟你討論的說我們這樣,你的感覺有困難度在哪裡?你們政府一來這個法要出來的時候你們在內部裡面的區會裡面,有遇到什麼問題嗎?來請回答一下好,謝謝委員,我想基本法通過之後其實我們現在最重要的就是依照基本法的內容做業務分工"},{"start":271.371,"end":292.759,"text":"所以業務分工才會有相關的部會就我剛剛一開始講的勞動、教育、社福等等的文化那因為這些東西的部分裡面如果有一些個別細節的部分譬如說任用權、通譯還有一些像學術、交流那這些東西有些東西本來是原本散在各個部會的"},{"start":293.879,"end":316.755,"text":"那我們這一次就是要跟各部會就是說他的執掌業務哪一些是可以移撥給我的所以我要跟他討論所以我們跟他開啟示哪一些是他業務移撥人員不移撥這個都雖然都很細項但是如果沒有一個完整的做調整的話新住民發展署不可能去承接所有其他部位的業務我想這個是最主要的所以我們這次會調整四個組12顆其實有一些業務都是我們"},{"start":317.515,"end":325.811,"text":"配合基本法之後所新增下來的那這個部分都還沒有辦法做一個完整的釐清的時候我們沒有辦法把組織法送上來最主要是這個部分"},{"start":326.681,"end":332.747,"text":"所以你們沒辦法上來就是另外一個問題嘛你們開始在那裡整合的心想說在一個單位在一個單位可以來在這個生活裡面來做來的服務嘛所以到目前為止你們還沒想到要怎麼可以更好、更快"},{"start":348.81,"end":370.957,"text":"我想跟你們報告其實我們大概都準備好了啦那只是接下來就是說還有跟部會的後續分工我們只要再確認說哪些業務不移波哪些業務留在原來可能是勞動文化教育衛福的部分我們繼續留著但是有一些新的部分其實像這次的組織法裡面談到的有關保險還有國家考試的任用權那這個部分其實有些是逾越我三級機關的組織法所應該能夠寫的啦"},{"start":373.078,"end":385.723,"text":"大概是這樣子因為這裡跟你討論就是說我們的背景我們也要照顧到新的住民法我們也要照顧到我們當然要照顧新的住民法但是剛才本席就是跟你說就是有這個問題說額後期的加分說實在現在大家都很聰明的尤其既然你已經來到台灣的生活的時候我相信"},{"start":399.368,"end":405.029,"text":"協助,一定都會協助,長久以來,移民署也都會協助這些新住民,對不對不然說,沒有在協助,它就靠不過去,要有協助才靠得過去,有加分才靠得過去,我認為一個公平的社會時,這個科技的加分,我希望我們可以深深去評估對外的"},{"start":427.075,"end":432.926,"text":"為當中 我覺得這是不好的啦因為沒公平啦因為這個規定 我也覺得"},{"start":435.68,"end":444.606,"text":"你講修法 怎麼努力來協助這個新住民轉業也好 嫁來這裡也好 來這裡做工作也好都可以給他們好好的照顧 協助我相信我們中央政府都願意這樣做啦不是說 你有修這個新的法 到時候我就來照顧新住民"},{"start":466.5,"end":477.882,"text":"會協助和付出 我覺得這是非常不公平其實我們一直都在做 移民署的業務本來就有包含新住民輔導 文化融入台灣社會對啊 所以我覺得長久以來我們會覺得自己的頭腦應該付出的 應該協助的沒有錯 可是不要去抹面他們長久以來會協助的辛苦"},{"start":491.505,"end":501.328,"text":"他們是將來不再發生 他們覺得你來台灣有什麼動作我應該跟你合作 這都是應該的但是聽起來 他們覺得你沒有一個單位 他們就沒辦法在台灣生活下去我認為這是非常對 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我們有請部長好 委員好部長好 我想要請教一個問題就是我們台灣跟巴拉圭是不是先前有一些經貿相關的協議那它的背景是如何的 可以幫我們稍微陳述一下嗎"},{"start":18.387,"end":33.338,"text":"經貿的協議我們跟巴拉圭對就是呢台巴經濟合作協定在106年7月12號簽署107年2月28號生效實施那它是為了擴大台巴經濟合作協定的效益"},{"start":33.778,"end":54.088,"text":"那先前呢其實我看到新聞這個部長您也有對於台巴之間的這個因為簽署相關的協議之後的產生的兩國之間的這個正向幫助有過一些談話所以我想要問一下當初在簽訂相關的這個協議的時候您有沒有掌握那協議的相關的內容"},{"start":55.669,"end":81.4,"text":"是108年跟10那個時候我還不是外交部長沒有沒有就最近的時候因為他這個今年的8因為他呢是要修正這個海關進口稅責所以才就進口一些農夫對他簽約的時間很早嘛那跟您沒有關係但是呢他到要準備實施上路的時候那您當時已經是外交部長了所以呢這個附委審查呢是113年的11月29號"},{"start":83.621,"end":111.399,"text":"委員會是在這個財政委員會審查那是114年的3月20號然後呢不需要協商行政院提案通過那呢當時我有看到新聞上面您有針對這個台灣跟巴拉圭那經過這樣子的一個協議之後那可能在外交上面能夠更緊密的結合那這個部分可不可以為我們說明一下其實台巴的經貿關係對雙方都很重要因為它有一個"},{"start":112.8,"end":132.083,"text":"難追共同市場有將近3億人口所以假設有自由貿易協定類似那當然他的進口台灣因為這個包括牛肉豬肉等另外就是我們現在那邊要設科學園區一個智慧化的科技園區本來有一個工業區在東方市"},{"start":132.683,"end":139.365,"text":"後來就是因為有些很多紛爭一直都無法開發那我們現在解決了所有問題我們現在台灣已經有企業包括像我們最近那個電動巴士國家隊經過我們國家審查過國產化的就去那邊已經有運電巴過去而且會設廠"},{"start":151.63,"end":167.431,"text":"另外也有紡織業 人造纖維會在那邊 因為他們有很好的水力發電也是綠電另外包括AI計算這些包括美國的國務卿Rubio他都有提到巴拉圭是很適合做AI資料中心的地方"},{"start":167.751,"end":181.503,"text":"所以我們過去會覺得說這些地方好像相對來講沒有那麼多商機可是我們現在發現跟我們建交反而我們可以運用在當地國的投資免關稅不然這個南美的關稅是很高的同樣我們對他進口台灣也是免關稅這樣也可以促進他產業的發展"},{"start":187.728,"end":191.11,"text":"所以您剛講到免關稅那實際上面我們免關稅那關稅修正到包含是說調降巴拉圭的去骨豬肉或者是已經調製或保存的牛雜碎等等的"},{"start":204.139,"end":213.542,"text":"那這些呢是稅率降到免稅那這個部分呢 農業部當時的說明因為外交部 農業部跟這個財政委員會我們共同針對這個台巴的相關的協議一定都是有參與到的那不會只有外交部嘛 有相關的評估可能是其他的部會"},{"start":225.686,"end":246.743,"text":"那當時農業部的說明裡面他就講到說調降巴拉圭農產品關稅對我國的影響在冷凍去骨豬肉這個部分他寫到調降巴拉圭冷凍豬肉的關稅將可以替代自歐盟進口的部分高價豬肉對我國的養豬產業不至於造成影響"},{"start":247.944,"end":259.434,"text":"那這個我不曉得這個部長知不知道這件事情就是說我們在台巴協議的時候呢我們把豬肉冷凍去骨豬肉的關稅降到零了"},{"start":260.373,"end":285.848,"text":"我知道最近開始實施所以貝尼亞總統也認為這是一個非常重大的一個雙邊關係的突破那至於說農業部他基於他專業的評估那個進口這個巴拉圭的牛肉零關稅的時候當然他現在有一定的這個進口量但是對他們來講是出口國算是台灣是會變得最重要"},{"start":286.608,"end":305.062,"text":"但是呢這件事情呢在包含雲林的豬農開始有非常多的抗議這個也是要跟這個部長做一個報告那巴拉圭豬肉降到林關水那當初講的農業部的他的所謂的專業意見是不會被豬農造成影響但是呢實際上面這個我們的豬農有非常非常大的反彈在雲林等養豬的相關的縣市"},{"start":312.968,"end":317.452,"text":"所以呢在這樣子的一個經貿相關的這個我們的簽訂的時候對我們是有一些地方有加分的但對我們的某一些產業它也可能受到傷害那我們不能說因為呢我們簽了這個相關的合約然後我們"},{"start":329.983,"end":348.112,"text":"有一些產業受到正面的影響但是對於負面的影響這個部分我們就好像並不是這麼在乎尤其是豬農在台灣來講是非常非常重要的一個產業就像是先前以前可能我們防止非洲豬瘟然後我們這個豬肉的市場或者是說美國當時來豬進口的時候豬農的相關的反彈等等的"},{"start":355.015,"end":381.867,"text":"所以豬農對於這樣子的一個台巴協議把豬肉降到零關稅這件事情已經開始表達非常多的不滿我能夠理解外交部這邊的想法是說我們兩邊的雙邊互惠你給我們免稅或低稅率我們這邊也必須要在巴拉圭所需要之處給予零關稅或是低稅率這個我是能夠理解的"},{"start":382.327,"end":388.231,"text":"但是對於這個豬農所受到因為我們的這個雙邊的外交關係所受到的重創所受到的影響以及他們的不滿我覺得還是必須要反應讓外交部知道那我想要最後請教的是說那既然現在有跟您提到這件事情有沒有可能外交部這裡再去協同農業部"},{"start":404.241,"end":406.122,"text":"請問一下他們當初說不會受到影響但是豬農有反彈這件事情是不是請農業部他們能夠去跟豬農了解一下或者是說明一下或者是說在他們所需要相關的補貼補償或協助上面能夠做好"},{"start":423.035,"end":427.54,"text":"因為呢一個一個反推回來之後最後會推到的是因為我們做台巴的外交就像呢川普的這個關稅貿易戰我們也經常就是在外交委員會來詢問嘛那這種跨委員會的這個情況那雖然呢不是這個豬肉的部分"},{"start":440.553,"end":450.307,"text":"評估不是由外交部主責但它是為了增進台巴之間的經貿關係以及外交關係所以推演到最後其實還是兩國之間的關係的緊密程度所以我在這邊想要請我們的外交部長"},{"start":455.774,"end":461.7,"text":"是不是回去可以開通農業部請他們針對過去他們講說不會受到影響這個部分重新評估並且跟包含是雲林等縣市養豬比較多的縣市去做一個好的溝通如果真的豬農感受到會受到影響也必須要有相關的對應的措施"},{"start":477.396,"end":485.909,"text":"我們的政府部會不會是分外交部農業部每個部會然後互不隸屬互不關心所以在這個部分我想要請問部長是不是可以回去跟農業部來溝通一下這個豬農現在反應非常非常的激烈這個情況"},{"start":494.828,"end":517.759,"text":"我們會按照委員的意思來辦理那當然我們也尊重農業部他專業的判斷確實這個外交是總和外交嘛是全國人的事情其實這個是雙向因為台灣現在的豬肉出口因為我們都拔針了嘛而且這個非疫區我們這個有時候是雙向怎麼樣幫助我們的"},{"start":519.236,"end":527.032,"text":"農民啊能夠擴大市場這也是最近包括去巴拉圭比如說食品加工其實巴拉圭的牛肉"},{"start":528.861,"end":556.158,"text":"這個我們台灣的這個企業是覺得加工之後是非常有進度沒有因為台灣 因為出口到包括美國對我知道因為台灣對於牛肉是比較沒有這麼量這麼大啦那對豬肉的影響一定會比較大如果你問牛跟豬的話來講的話豬肉對於豬農台灣的豬農的數量非常多我們養豬的品質也非常的好所以在豬肉相關的這個品項降到零關稅的時候那難免我們的豬農他可能"},{"start":558.919,"end":563.661,"text":"會有覺得有壓力或者說會認為會影響到他們的這個產業那如果說呢只是他們的誤會那希望說外交部這裡可以告訴農業部請他們去做說明那如果真的有影響的話農業部重新評估真的有影響的話該輔導的該協助的該協助開拓市場的這件事情呢一定要做"},{"start":582.068,"end":607.807,"text":"那因為他推到最後極致是我們台灣跟巴拉圭之間的互動關係我們中華民國的外交所以還是希望由我們外交部長能夠向農業部這邊來做一個說明就是說我們這裡接收到的信息我們有跟農業部長雙部長會議我們會來反映但是我覺得跟委員講這個不是零和我都同意我們現在利用巴拉圭其實我在跟很多的養豬業"},{"start":609.229,"end":615.262,"text":"尤其是智慧養豬的這些青龍討論整個要去巴拉圭設廠"},{"start":616.721,"end":644.556,"text":"然後其實善用巴拉圭在南追共同市場這個龐大的人口以及他們可以出口他們到美國到歐洲其實包括跟歐盟也在簽自由貿易協定您講的是青農的部分但我講的是在像雲林的傳統的豬農所以說雲林傳統豬農其實像他們也都有很多年輕人在因為我對雲林有一定的了解沒有 我跟您說包含是丁學中委員跟張家俊委員都收到非常多來自豬農的抗議"},{"start":645.456,"end":651.44,"text":"所以這個抗議是確實存在的不是我今天一個人在這邊就覺得可以胡亂的來講說豬董的我都同意委員剛剛的提醒我也會去推動只是我想說這不是零和我們只要讓台灣的農業包括養豬業走出去"},{"start":661.946,"end":670.308,"text":"我理解我理解剛才我也有提到啦就是說我們也有額外的投資所以我理解我們必須簽訂這樣子的協議對某些產業是好的嘛但當豬農他們有抗議確實有在抗議的時候那我覺得我們也應該要負責不管是在外交上面的溝通或者是農業部上面的評估以及溝通我們都希望能夠讓外交好的同時對於國內的一些重要產業尤其是傳統的相關的農業"},{"start":690.314,"end":694.679,"text":"農牧業 那他們也能夠感到安心 好不好好 我們一起來推動"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。請教部長一個問題，我們臺灣跟巴拉圭先前有一些經貿相關協議，其背景如何，部長可以幫我們稍微陳述一下嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：經貿的協議，我們跟巴拉圭？"],["徐委員巧芯：對。就是臺巴經濟合作協定，在106年7月12號簽署，107年2月28號生效實施，主要是為了擴大臺巴經濟合作協定的效益。其實先前我有看到相關新聞，部長對於臺巴之間因為簽署相關協議在兩國之間所產生的正向幫助有過一些談話，所以我想要請問一下，當初在簽訂協議的時候，您有沒有掌握協議的相關內容？"],["林部長佳龍：108年……那個時候我還不是外交部長。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，就最近的時候，因為現在要修正海關進口稅則，所以才……"],["林部長佳龍：喔！OK，就是進口一些農畜……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，簽約的時間很早，這跟您沒有關係，但是到要準備實施上路的時候，您已經是外交部長了，所以付委審查是113年11月29號，然後財政委員會在114年3月20號審查，決議是不需要協商，照行政院提案通過。當時在新聞上我有看到您提到臺灣跟巴拉圭經過這樣一個協議之後，外交關係能夠更緊密結合，這個部分可不可以為我們說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：好，其實臺巴經貿關係對雙方都很重要，因為他有一個南錐共同市場，有將近3億人口，假設有類似的自由貿易協定，當然他的農畜品就可以進口臺灣，包括牛肉、豬肉等，另外我們現在要在那邊設一個科學園區，一個……"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼科學園區？"],["林部長佳龍：一個智慧化的科技園區，本來有一個工業區在東方市，後來因為一些紛爭一直無法開發，現在我們解決了所有問題，已經有臺灣企業，包括最近的電動巴士國家隊，經過我們國家審查過國產化後就到那邊，已經有運電巴過去，而且會設廠；還有紡織業、人造纖維會在那邊設廠，因為他們有很好的水力發電，也是綠電；另外包括AI計算這一些，像美國國務卿盧比歐就有提過巴拉圭是很適合做AI資料中心的地方。過去我們會覺得這些地方好像相對來講沒有那麼多商機，可是我們現在發現跟我們建交之後，我們反而可以運用在當地國的投資免關稅，不然南美的關稅是很高的，同樣的，我們對他們進口臺灣的產品也是免關稅，這樣也可以促進他們產業的發展。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，您剛剛提到免關稅，實際上在免關稅部分，包含巴拉圭的去骨豬肉，或者已經調製或保存的牛雜碎等等，稅率都是降到免稅，這個部分當時農業部的說明，不好意思，因為外交部、農業部跟財政委員會，針對臺巴相關協議一定都有參與到，它不會只有外交部，就是相關的評估可能涉及其他部會，當時農業部的說明提到調降巴拉圭農產品關稅對我國的影響，在冷凍去骨豬肉部分，它寫到調降巴拉圭冷凍豬肉的關稅，將可以替代自歐盟進口的部分高價豬肉，對我國養豬產業不至於造成影響。我不曉得部長知不知道這件事，就是我們在臺巴協議的時候，把冷凍去骨豬肉的關稅降到零了？"],["林部長佳龍：我知道最近開始實施，貝尼亞總統也認為這是一個非常重大的雙邊關係的突破，至於農業部基於專業的評估，進口巴拉圭牛肉是零關稅，當然他們現在有一定的進口量，但是對他們來講，在出口國部分，臺灣會變得是最重要……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是這件事情，包含雲林的豬農開始有非常多的抗議，這個也要跟部長做一個報告，巴拉圭豬肉降到零關稅，當初農業部所謂的專業意見是不會對豬農造成影響，但事實上，雲林等養豬相關縣市的豬農有非常非常大的反彈，所以我們簽訂這樣一個經貿協議的時候，雖然有一些地方是有加分，但對某一些產業來講，也可能造成傷害，我們不能說因為簽了相關合約，有一些產業受到正面影響，但對於負面影響的部分，好像就並不是這麼在乎，尤其養豬業在臺灣來講是非常重要的一個產業，就像先前為了防止非洲豬瘟，影響到豬肉市場，或者美國萊豬進口的時候，豬農的相關反彈等等，對於這樣一個把豬肉降到零關稅的臺巴協議，很多豬農已經開始表達非常多的不滿，我能夠理解外交部的想法，因為這是雙邊互惠，你給我們免稅或低稅率，我們這邊也必須在巴拉圭需要之處給予零關稅或低稅率，這個我都能理解，但是對於豬農因為這個雙邊外交關係所受到的重創、受到的影響，以及他們的不滿，我覺得還是必須反映給外交部知道。","最後要請教的是，既然現在我跟您提到這件事情，外交部有沒有可能協同農業部，詢問當初他們說不會受到影響，而現在卻有豬農反彈這件事情，請農業部能夠去跟豬農了解一下、說明一下，或者在他們所需要的相關補貼、補償或協助上能夠做好，因為一個一個反推回來，最後會推到的是因為我們要做臺巴外交，就像川普的關稅貿易戰，我們也經常在外交委員會詢問，這種跨委員會的情況，雖然豬肉部分的評估不是由外交部主責，但它是為了增進臺巴之間的經貿關係及外交關係，推演到最後，其實還是兩國之間關係的緊密程度。所以我想要請外交部長是不是可以會同農業部，請他們針對過去他們所講的不會受到影響的部分重新去評估，並且跟包含雲林等養豬比較多的縣市再做一個好的溝通，如果豬農真的感受到受到影響，也必須要有相關的對應措施。我想我們的政府部門不會是分外交部、農業部，然後每個部會互不隸屬、互不關心，所以在這個部分我想請問部長，是不是可以回去跟農業部溝通一下，豬農現在對這個反應非常激烈的情況？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會按照委員的意思辦理，當然也會尊重農業部專業的判斷。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然。"],["林部長佳龍：確實，外交是總合外交，算是全國人民的事情，其實這個是雙向的，臺灣現在豬肉的出口，因為我們都拔針了，而且我們也是非疫區，這個有時候是雙向的，怎麼幫助我們的農民能擴大市場，這個也是……"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["林部長佳龍：最近包括去巴拉圭，比如食品加工，其實巴拉圭的牛肉，我們臺灣的企業是覺得加工之後是非常有潛力，是可以出口到包括美國……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，因為臺灣對於牛肉，這個量是比較沒有這麼大，對豬肉的影響一定會比較大，如果以牛跟豬來講的話，豬肉對於豬農，臺灣的豬農數量非常多，我們養豬的品質也非常好，所以與豬肉相關的品項降到零關稅的時候，豬農難免會覺得有壓力，或者是認為會影響到他們的產業。如果只是他們的誤會，希望外交部可以告訴農業部，請他們去說明；如果農業部重新評估後認為真的有影響的話，該輔導的、該協助的、該協助開拓市場的，這件事情一定要做。因為它推到最後的極致是，我們臺灣跟巴拉圭之間的互動關係以及我們中華民國的外交，所以還是希望由外交部長能夠向農業部做一個說明，就是我們這邊接收到的訊息。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我有跟農業部進行雙部長會議，我們會來反映，但也要跟委員講的是，這個不是零和……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，我知道。"],["林部長佳龍：這些我都同意，我們現在利用巴拉圭的……其實我在跟很多養豬業，尤其是智慧養豬的這些青農討論整個要去巴拉圭設廠，其實善用巴拉圭在南錐共同市場這個龐大的人口，以及他們可以出口到美國、歐洲，包括跟歐盟也在簽自由貿易協定。"],["徐委員巧芯：您講的是青農的部分，但我講的是像在雲林的傳統豬農，所以雲林傳統豬農……"],["林部長佳龍：其實現在都有很多年輕人在……因為我對雲林有一定的瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我跟您說，包含丁學忠委員跟張嘉郡委員都收到非常多來自豬農的抗議，所以這個抗議是確實存在的，不是我今天一個人在這邊就可以胡亂地講豬農的……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，我都同意委員剛剛的提醒，我們也會去推動。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["林部長佳龍：只是我想這個不是零和……"],["徐委員巧芯：我理解。"],["林部長佳龍：我們要讓臺灣的農業包括養豬業走出去……"],["徐委員巧芯：我理解。"],["林部長佳龍：包括像菲律賓也是另外一個很好的出路。"],["徐委員巧芯：剛才我也提到，就是說我們也有額外投資，所以我理解我們必須簽訂這樣子的協議，對我們某些產業是好的嘛！但是當豬農確實有在抗議的時候，我覺得我們也應該要負責，不管是在外交上面的溝通，或者是農業部的評估以及溝通，我們都希望能夠在讓外交好的同時，對於國內的一些重要產業，尤其是傳統的相關農、牧業也能夠感到安心，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：我們一起來推動。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員的質詢。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","待會我們在馬文君委員質詢後休息5分鐘。","我們請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73448f9a368c4ea9eaeab13042bab466e3fe48e1f12328ce24b9f0b68493ff28c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:19:11 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已經是790天了那所有這個"},{"start":115.29,"end":140.251,"text":"就是我們的菸的一個稅戶跟那個健康狐狸間我們在這裡面臨到這樣的一個困境那部長 你有沒有什麼樣的一個看法竟然就是說我們之前的幾位委員一直遲遲的在質疑就是說我們的台酒公司送了五次送了五次的一個資料然後這五次全部都被退回是什麼樣的一個原因呢"},{"start":142.373,"end":166.168,"text":"我們那個菸酒公司他確實有送件去申請跟衛護部申請所謂的要製加熱菸不過因為被退五次那相關的細節內容可能是我們國健署比較清楚國健署署長來你來說明為什麼台酒會被退了五次我不管另外那六家公司我就管台酒公司為什麼被你退了五次"},{"start":167.548,"end":185.082,"text":"他寫的很差嗎?他的計畫寫的很差嗎?我們審查的最大的風險評估的標準那其實就是說所有的指定制菸品它的風險不得高於國內指驗的一個比較如果足以證明這樣的一個方式所以台酒公司送出去"},{"start":187.263,"end":197.452,"text":"台酒公司送出去的所有的資料都不合乎你們的標準不是說所有 至少說它已經還是有一些那當然 因為它沒有辦法說服大家認同這個部分就是有些資料的缺少你已經不知道社會的問題存在哪裡"},{"start":207.003,"end":229.597,"text":"上一屆我在衛環委員會 電子菸是我當召委的時候通過的結果2023年3月22號要去執行它 到現在完全沒有辦法執行為什麼我不請衛福部部長上來因為衛福部部長當初也是我們衛福部的委員其實我都認了幾次都會"},{"start":231.907,"end":244.734,"text":"為什麼這些問題存在哪裡我相信所有的人在現場所有的人大家都搞不清楚只有你最清楚只有你最清楚問題出在哪裡為什麼讓這個這麼簡單的一個問題然後這個社會的一個對立面這麼大為什麼不要去處理呢"},{"start":254.352,"end":279.298,"text":"你說你的委屈在哪裡 說給我們聽聽看我想這不是委屈 該行政來的時候 該有行政來的時候我們必須依法保障民眾最大的立法院那所以你能力很差 經過790天了你沒有辦法去執行它 為什麼審查的過程中一直都是要最完備最完整的情況下以民眾的健康完備那最完備完整 三讀通過了當初在立法院的一個送案就是不夠完備是不是這樣子 我可以這樣講咧"},{"start":283.876,"end":306.986,"text":"不是這樣說,因為售遣給我們做這樣的審查,就要遵守審查委員對於相關的風險評估的一個審查我非常謝謝賴思寶召委今天排這個案子啊我跟你說,這個對我們執政黨的委員來講,我們是很委屈啊我們不知道怎麼樣去要求國建署啊"},{"start":308.35,"end":329.884,"text":"國監署每一次在質詢的過程當中你同樣都是回答相同的問題你看連我們的台酒公司在上一屆換了就是跟這一屆是不同的一個董事長我們竟然要賭上這個台酒公司在半年如果沒有辦法通過的話執政黨的委員要他辭職這個有道理嗎"},{"start":337.23,"end":341.616,"text":"當然是沒有道理啊 大家不好意思賣力啊是你的問題啊不是嗎我覺得這個讓我們很困境欸怎麼辦"},{"start":350.973,"end":366.766,"text":"我想我們都會全力來協助五十萬的那也要依歸來辦理三個業內喔三個業內你可以提出我想我們會做最後的一個審查確認那也希望A組能夠把相關完整的資訊給我們最後的一個確認的審查要多久來 部長你回答"},{"start":374.381,"end":386.249,"text":"第一個我想整個我希望健康署我們要求他把開會比如說委員為什麼投票不會通過他的理由以及缺乏的"},{"start":387.515,"end":411.145,"text":"資料到底在哪裡,一次一次說清楚一次一次說清楚,不找三個業內,不能讓社會不瞭解你看嘛,你完全扣不到稅,然後你還要花到那麼多的一個社會的一個成本,那去抓他我想我們應該清楚的來瞭解這個過程,才讓全民知道說為什麼要這麼,走得這麼"},{"start":413.907,"end":441.528,"text":"走得這麼辛苦是不是那要到790天到現在大家還這麼嚴肅的再來討論這些問題是你的審查卡關還是你其他的一個問題部長我們應該去面對這些問題我們不能把那個稽查的成本居高不下你讓這一些這一些其他的一個部會的這個社會成本是這麼高的沒道理啊好我們會站在人民健康以及他規劃的規定之下"},{"start":443.048,"end":459.414,"text":"那個絕對是馬不停蹄來處理你的馬不停蹄要多久 三個月可以嗎我們很期盼三個月能夠不要期盼 我們用確定的因為這個是委員會啦 所以委員也必須要拜託業者能夠提供我們也希望業者真的是如果針對審查會提出的意見能夠"},{"start":469.238,"end":475.162,"text":"符合就好像我們在科技上,科什麼的,我們就把它補好就好嘛你已經準備兩年,題目都給你們啊我是站在比較一個光穎的立場來看,其實行政單位也是努力"},{"start":487.21,"end":505.201,"text":"那專家寫者你不得因為當時兩年前就請這些專家寫者他們有他們的各種堅持或者是專業我跟你講這樣的一個模式我們必須要去做修正當已經很多的這個社會的聲音還有很多的"},{"start":506.081,"end":522.176,"text":"委員在這裡提出了這麼多不同面向的一個問題你應該要去正視如果你再繼續不正視的話下一次我就再排 完全了解我們非常正視下一次就再排 謝謝部長來 那個我們那個彭署長署長來 請彭署長彭署長官務署的彭署長"},{"start":532.478,"end":560.894,"text":"委員好彭署長 是那個我們就是這整個關戶數有幾個這個幾個關下面有四個關區有四個關區是哪一個關區它的規模是最大的以人數來說是台北關一千兩百多人最大那我請教你現在台北關它所有在倉庫裡頭囤放的那個寄放的物品最多的是哪一樣的一個物品"},{"start":561.696,"end":587.29,"text":"目前加熱菸有20萬條是比較多加熱菸有20萬條那啤酒呢啤酒中國進口的啤酒多不多啤酒應該扣押的應該不算多中國進口的啤酒多不多他洗產地的多不多好那我再請問你太陽能板多不多"},{"start":589.513,"end":606.258,"text":"都有那所以就是從加熱菸到這個那個中國啤酒到那個太陽能板跟委員報告扣押的沒有中國大陸的啤酒禮拜三我們到你的台北關來考察"},{"start":607.459,"end":629.837,"text":"我們真正的去看到了到底就是我們整個關務署台北關存在的一個情況你到底是換了多少這個中國啤酒 換了多少太陽能板換了多少加熱菸 可以嗎老闆 委員 那個現在台應該是到基隆關因為那個中國大陸的啤酒是從基隆關好 那就去基隆關跟台北關 兩個關都看"},{"start":633.296,"end":659.344,"text":"兩個關都看 好不好 趕快回去準備幹什麼準備就怎麼準備有沒有問題沒有問題 謝謝財政部部長我想今天本來要跟你討論一些那個菸煎的一個用途當然我們知道就是說長期以來這個菸煎的用途跟那個菸碎的那個用途其實是有差異性的"},{"start":659.764,"end":684.994,"text":"那倒是特別要在這裡就是說 煙圈是不是夠那每一個人抽煙的人口其實一直在減少那當然我們知道煙圈是不夠的這個是來補助健保健保的一個它在一個總額的預算裡頭不足的地方那所以就是說沒有關係這個我們在私下就是說煙圈那個撥飽健保的一個強化健保的一個那個"},{"start":688.84,"end":708.979,"text":"制度那我們私下在那個跟你要一些資料你再提供給我們那我們當然也看到國建署在今年也面臨到一個困境他已經開始就是去動用這個爭取公務的預算31億那我們希望就是抽菸的人口變少那我們也希望就是說"},{"start":710.24,"end":717.804,"text":"這些抽菸的人口要共同的負擔我們國人的一個健康那在這裡是本席今天所做的一個質詢的內容謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時19分）謝謝主席，先請財政部莊部長、關務署彭署長及國民健康署吳署長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長、關務署彭署長及國健署吳署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長早安。部長，你們家裡有沒有人抽菸？"],["莊部長翠雲：家裡有人抽菸。"],["賴委員惠員：抽電子煙還是抽紙菸？"],["莊部長翠雲：紙菸。"],["賴委員惠員：紙菸，你想想看這電子煙已經這麼普及了，可是我們一直都沒有辦法……主席暫停一下，我的電腦跳不過去。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。"],["賴委員惠員：主席，我們繼續。"],["主席：時間繼續。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，在這裡我要特別請教你一下，當你們家或你四周圍也有這樣一個抽菸人口的時候，我們事實上有很大的一個困境，因為我們抽稅抽不到電子煙及加熱菸，在2023年1月12日通過的「菸酒稅法」修正案，至今已經是790天了，這種菸的稅賦及健康福利捐，我們在這裡面臨到這樣的困境，部長有沒有什麼樣的看法？之前的幾位委員一直有在質疑，臺酒公司送了5次的申請資料，結果這5次全部都被退回，是什麼樣的原因呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們菸酒公司確實有送件跟衛福部申請所謂的製造加熱菸的業務，不過因為被退5次，這相關的細節內容可能國健署會比較清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：好，請國健署署長來說明，為什麼臺酒會被退了5次？不管另外那6家公司，我就管臺酒公司為什麼被你們退了5次？他們的計畫寫得很差嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們審查最大風險評估的標準，其實就是所有的指定菸品的危害風險不得高於國內紙菸的一個標準，如果能足以證明這樣的方式就可以，所以臺酒公司的資料……"],["賴委員惠員：署長，所以臺酒公司送出去的所有資料都不合乎你們的標準嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：不是所有，至少他們已經……還是有一些……"],["賴委員惠員：你們持續退了他們5次了啊！到底是什麼原因？"],["吳署長昭軍：當然啊！因為他們沒有辦法說服大家所認同的這個部分，有一些資料缺少……"],["賴委員惠員：沒有辦法說服？我覺得你已經不知道社會的問題在哪裡？上一屆我在衛環委員會，電子煙是我在擔任召委的時候通過的，結果2023年3月22日要執行的，到現在完全沒有辦法執行，為什麼我不請衛福部部長上來？因為衛福部部長當初也是我們衛環委員會的委員，其實我們都忍了一肚子氣，這些問題存在哪裡？我相信在現場所有的人都搞不清楚，只有你最清楚問題出在哪裡？為什麼讓這麼簡單的一個問題使這個社會的對立面這麼大，為什麼不去處理呢？你說你的委屈在哪裡說給我們聽聽看。"],["吳署長昭軍：這不是委屈，該行政的就該有行政的作法，我們必須依法保障民眾的最大利益及健康。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你能力很差，經過790天了，你們還沒有辦法去執行它，為什麼？"],["吳署長昭軍：審查的過程中，一直都是要以最完備及最完整的情況下審查，以民眾的健康為依歸。"],["賴委員惠員：這最完備、完整的三讀通過了，當初在立法院的送案就是不夠完備，是不是這樣？"],["吳署長昭軍：還是需要審查的完備性。"],["賴委員惠員：我可不可以這樣講？"],["吳署長昭軍：不是這樣說，因為授權給我們做這樣的審查，就要尊重審查委員對於相關的風險評估的審查。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，你到現在還是……我非常謝謝賴士葆召委今天排這個案子啊！我跟你說，這個對我們執政黨的委員來講，我們是很委屈，不知道怎麼樣去要求國健署啊！國健署每一次在質詢的過程當中，同樣都是回答相同的問題，你看連我們的臺酒公司在這一屆換了跟上一屆不同的董事長，我們竟然要賭上臺酒公司董事長的職位，再半年如果沒有辦法通過的話，執政黨的委員要他辭職，這個有道理嗎？當然是沒有道理啊！大家不好意思罵你，是你的問題啊，不是嗎？我覺得這個讓我們很困境，怎麼辦？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會全力來協助相關的業者，也確實要依規定來辦理。"],["賴委員惠員：剛才部長說3個月內喔！3個月內你可以提出……"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會做最後的審查確認，也希望業者能夠把相關完整的資訊給我們。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，最後的審查確認要多久？來，部長由你回答。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員。第一個，我希望國健署……我們會要求他們把開會的，譬如委員為什麼投票不會通過，他們不通過的理由是什麼以及缺乏的資料到底在哪裡，一次一次說清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：一次一次說清楚？部長，你剛才答應要在3個月內了喔！"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得不能不讓社會不了解。"],["賴委員惠員：你看嘛！完全扣不到稅，你們還要花到那麼多的社會成本去抓他們，這實在是本末倒置。"],["邱部長泰源：我們應該要清楚的來了解整個過程，才可以讓全民知道為什麼要這麼走得這麼……要這麼嚴謹。"],["賴委員惠員：走得這麼辛苦，是不是？都過了790天，到現在大家還這麼嚴肅的在討論這些問題，是你們的審查卡關？還是你們其他的問題？部長，我們應該去面對這些問題，我們不能把那個稽查的成本居高不下，讓其他部會所花費的社會成本是這麼高的，沒道理啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會站在人民健康以及法規的規定之下，絕對是馬不停蹄來處理。"],["賴委員惠員：你的馬不停蹄要多久？3個月可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們很期盼3個月能夠有個結果。"],["賴委員惠員：不要期盼，我們要確定的。"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個是審查委員會，所以我們也必須要拜託業者能夠提供……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講這個委員會，已經跟你們太多的時間了，部長這樣講，沒道理啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望業者真的可以針對審查會提出的意見能夠符合，就好像我們考試考不好，我們就把它補好就好，這個事情也拜託一下。"],["賴委員惠員：你已經準備2年，題目都給你們了，你們到現在還是……"],["邱部長泰源：我是站在比較公允的立場來看，其實行政單位也是都很努力，專家學者不得……因為當時2年前就請這些專家學者，他們有他們的各種堅持或者專業，這我們也要尊重，但是……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我跟你講這樣的一個模式，我們必須要去修正，當已經很多社會的聲音還有很多的委員在這裡提出了這麼多不同面向的問題，你應該要去正視，如果你再繼續不正視的話，下一次我就再排。"],["邱部長泰源：完全了解，我們完全非常正視。"],["賴委員惠員：是，下次就再排，謝謝部長。","接下來請彭署長。"],["主席：請關務署彭署長。"],["彭署長英偉：委員好！"],["賴委員惠員：彭署長，整個關務署有幾個關？"],["彭署長英偉：下面有四個關區。"],["賴委員惠員：有四個關區。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["賴委員惠員：哪一個關區的規模是最大的？"],["彭署長英偉：以人數來說是臺北關，有一千兩百多人，最大。"],["賴委員惠員：臺北關，好，我請教你，現在臺北關所有在倉庫裡頭囤放的、寄放的物品最多的是哪一樣物品？"],["彭署長英偉：目前加熱菸有20萬條，是比較多。"],["賴委員惠員：加熱菸有20萬條，啤酒呢？"],["彭署長英偉：啤酒……"],["賴委員惠員：中國進口的啤酒多不多？"],["彭署長英偉：啤酒扣押的應該不算多，尤其臺北關沒有進口啤酒。"],["賴委員惠員：中國進口的啤酒多不多？他洗產地的多不多？"],["彭署長英偉：中國進口的啤酒……"],["賴委員惠員：好，我再請問你，太陽能板多不多？"],["彭署長英偉：都有。"],["賴委員惠員：都有。"],["彭署長英偉：對。"],["賴委員惠員：所以就是從加熱菸，到中國啤酒，到太陽能板……"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，扣押的……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講，署長，回去盤點……"],["彭署長英偉：扣押的沒有中國大陸的啤酒。"],["賴委員惠員：回去盤點。下禮拜三我們到你的臺北關考察，我們要真正的去看到關務署臺北關的存放情況，到底是放了多少中國啤酒、放了多少太陽能板、放了多少加熱菸，可以嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，現在安排的應該是到基隆關……"],["賴委員惠員：趕快回去準備。"],["彭署長英偉：因為中國大陸的啤酒是從基隆關……"],["賴委員惠員：好，就去基隆關及臺北關，兩個關都看，兩個關都看，好不好？"],["彭署長英偉：好，沒有問題，但是……"],["賴委員惠員：趕快回去準備。"],["彭署長英偉：是、是、是。"],["賴委員惠員：該怎麼準備就怎麼準備。"],["彭署長英偉：了解。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有問題？"],["彭署長英偉：沒有問題。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有問題喔！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。請財政部部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["賴委員惠員：部長，今天本來要跟你討論菸捐的用途，當然我們知道，長期以來菸捐的用途與菸稅的用途其實是有差異性的，我特別要在這裡提到菸捐是不是夠，每年抽菸的人口其實一直在減少，當然我們知道菸捐是不夠的，這個是用來補助健保總額預算裡頭不足的地方，沒有關係，有關菸捐撥補健保、強化健保的制度，我們私下再跟你要一些資料，你再提供給我們。我們當然也看到今年國健署也面臨到困境，他已經開始爭取公務預算31億。我們希望抽菸的人口變少，也希望抽菸的人口要共同負擔國人的健康。這是本席今天所做的質詢內容，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，我們提供資料，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委的質詢。","向委員會報告，我們進行質詢到陳玉珍委員之後才休息。","繼續請李坤城委員質詢。","還有藉這個機會我要公開的肯定邱部長，他不是本委員會所監督的，但是他兩次都親自到本委員會，我們是給予肯定。邱部長都可以親自到了，我們希望財委會所監督的各部會首長，我們有開會的時候，一定要親自到。請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生我們先請邱部長和食藥署的王副署長待會我們就請海巡署的謝副署長以及我們財政部的莊部長和國庫署的胡瑞署的兩位署長委員好部長 剛剛我覺得賴委員 賴昭偉的質詢非常精彩空面探針之前台灣有辦法製造目前的這種口罩嗎 有沒有能力"},{"start":29.522,"end":53.04,"text":"有沒有在做?COVID-19之前有嗎?世界主要的口罩跟誰買的?世界上主要的這種COVID-19防護口罩,當時都是跟中國買的啦後來台灣趕快的進口那樣的一個表面噴劑,我們才有辦法自製嘛對不對?血袋是不是一個比較低階的產品?全世界大概其中在哪幾家工廠生產,你知道嗎?"},{"start":54.466,"end":76.797,"text":"副組長跟他講一下副組長剛剛委員報告全世界主要是日本美國跟歐洲有在生產是的所以整個全球化經濟的結果大概這些醫材如果不是很通用性的醫材有些就是少數的國家少數的工廠在製造但是剛剛委員召委的諮詢前台灣要有備戰的準備包括我們的"},{"start":78.072,"end":88.357,"text":"部立醫院的地下室要做緊急的傷患修製包括我們這些會需要用到的醫材要趕快自主籌措自主證到的能力部長能不能做到"},{"start":90.247,"end":114.414,"text":"剛剛醫事室也有報告齁,在我們準備的藥材、醫材都有準備十萬人份的一個急救另外當我們準備這個時候呢,你要想到什麼?去化因為這些東西都有保存期限的所以你解決你的緊急存量之後,你要思考到定期的推陳出新的去化當然這是管理藥品一定要的事我們給你一個報告,給你一個書面報告好,那我先問謝副組長謝副組長"},{"start":119.947,"end":138.756,"text":"請問 目前我們看一下 為什麼金門海域走私日漸長久 我們看到新聞啊遊艇喔 金門的遊艇會到中國海域走私喔把台灣的一些東西 在非法運送電子產品運到中國去啊還有什麼 澳洲的龍蝦怎麼到中國的是透過金門馬祖從台灣這邊把龍蝦進到中國去啊"},{"start":142.998,"end":169.411,"text":"包括這些顯卡科技產品這些包括無人機的晶片都用漁船搬貨副組長你們有沒有抓到過我們抓到非常多非常多嗎是所以這是一個嚴重的問題我們往下看接下來我們看到這兩天這個是密集的報導灰色海域變成了中國大中國的走私產地越容易來我們看看越靠近中國越容易"},{"start":170.111,"end":192.665,"text":"基本上是台灣的漁民跟中國下單他們在福建養成陳輩綁成浮球在海上丟包馬祖的漁民領獲在馬祖海域綻放然後變成台灣的牡蠣有沒有這樣的情況馬祖沒有超過列案 有有嘛 馬祖本來的產量是148公噸2023年結果去年馬祖向往台灣的牡蠣多少1500噸啊你們不覺得可疑嗎"},{"start":196.192,"end":214.055,"text":"有沒有跟農業部去查一下到底馬達族哪些人在養牡蠣這不僅跟地方漁業主管機關也跟中央主管機關我們都協調過我們在查計畫全力以赴另外呢我們希望從源頭管理包括產銷履歷等等是的 那產銷履歷那就是農業部的事金馬的海域"},{"start":215.737,"end":226.542,"text":"兩邊共同去管理的海域就成為兩邊走私的一個漏洞我們想要看現在我們看到金下海域有一個違規的磕棚是不是是現在金門縣政府有辦法去拆嗎"},{"start":228.696,"end":247.87,"text":"這個是非法漁業行為我們建議金門縣政府要依照漁業法聽到沒有 你們建議金門縣政府海巡署可以去執行嗎 不是嘛拆客架不是你們的事情嗎我們負責漁業界入船好 你們負責漁業界的包括說拆除的話有安全顧慮的話我們全程戒護都沒有問題所以現在執法的困難在哪裡"},{"start":249.01,"end":258.173,"text":"跟委員報告這個距離剛好它核損的地方各2公頃96跟100年各2公頃只有4公頃剛好在我們檳榔嶼就是在淨線水域線上就在旁邊距離廈門1.7箱是"},{"start":266.777,"end":290.153,"text":"淨線水域如果模糊是不是走資越容易所以我們強制執法 嚴正執法但是你執法還要法是怎麼定 我們來看一下現在有在野黨立委主張兩岸協商 金馬的淨制水域要內海化怎麼說 前項限制或禁止水域由海洋委員公告之但是他是怎樣 他把淡化組言到說這些地方"},{"start":291.803,"end":308.915,"text":"要跟陸方透過協商定出陸方承認的我國司法行政有效水準是這樣嗎你覺得可以接受嗎我們不同意因為這個案子涉及到國家安全國防策略還有區域的發展那這部分不是單單執法而已是"},{"start":309.355,"end":326.85,"text":"是,所以我們看到在野黨的他的關係文化立法理由說1949年以來的內戰狀態其實我們解決洞刊之後就沒有什麼內戰的問題了這個法治觀念根本不懂好,我們來看一下兩岸協商禁制水域會擴大還是縮小目前的做法是國防部公告禁制水域海巡組執法對不對是"},{"start":328.251,"end":353.645,"text":"如果未來照在野黨的法案通過的話兩岸協商禁限制水域然後來有陸委會公告海巡組執法你覺得目前這個點啊是目前在我們現有的禁限制水域後我們海警對岸的海警船入侵的軌跡點至少目前還維持著他們不敢越線如果未來禁限制水域縮小的話或對方不跟你協商的話你覺得會面臨到什麼樣的情況"},{"start":355.326,"end":371.155,"text":"這個涉及到國家主權的問題這不是可以協商陸方可以得來的所以我們堅持這是我們國家主權區的展現所以我們看到了如果說在現在我們有法律的授權之下我們海巡署還可以維持這樣的海域我們國家主權"},{"start":371.815,"end":394.554,"text":"如果這個上面的法律更動了,海巡恐怕沒有辦法執法了我們更很難去打擊兩岸的走私,是不是?是好,那我現在再問,接下來請財政部長準備,來我們看一下反海上走私,海巡準備好了嗎?有沒有看過這樣的一個國內媒體報導用科技的無人船,來協助我們做這些海域,有高風險海域的巡邏"},{"start":395.815,"end":421.75,"text":"韓總統有沒有去探究類似的計畫昨天前天你們探究一個快期計畫是中科院的你們有派員去看嘛我們當上之後才看賴總統去看高雄港的操演嘛那這個東西你們有沒有引進我們不僅在特別特別條例草案我們爭取兩百六十億的經費我們在公共建設也同樣的我們也爭取經費那麼以後不僅是要強化岸海健身設備航外線也包括立體徵收無人機"},{"start":423.251,"end":443.445,"text":"還有水面的無人載具所以結論兩個請你承諾請海軍委員運用無人載具強化我國禁限制水域的執法方案可以嗎是包括海底電纜還有對於金馬海水域走私倉決的情況我們應該用無人載具去反制可以嗎是我都略不考量是謝謝我們接下來請我們財政部"},{"start":450.297,"end":468.388,"text":"兩位長官 專部長陳署長 以及瘦署長部長 這些新聞事件啊告訴我們一個社會現象很多年輕的家長你看很看到的 虐嬰對不對 幼兒園的性侵補習班不減反增這說明了什麼"},{"start":469.659,"end":482.762,"text":"所以目前我們現在的家長在養育子女的過程當中從三歲之前的托嬰到三到六歲的幼兒照顧到六到十二歲這些課後的照顧是不是都是我們現在家長越來越依賴"},{"start":484.712,"end":492.394,"text":"所以政府有沒有義務責任要來推動 協助家長減輕他們負擔為什麼我是問你不是問邱部長 因為這個議題邱部長很熟悉但是莊部長你要了解苦民所苦往下看"},{"start":508.035,"end":524.123,"text":"所以當我們看到勞動部已經在昨天在修改原意彈性的月薪假讓企業可以臨時排班也防止企業拒絕家長他能夠照顧嬰幼兒而我們目前財政部我們的學齡前的特別扣除額擴大到6歲對不對"},{"start":525.749,"end":542.82,"text":"這最近財政部做的嘛是不是那是不是說六歲以下的第一名15萬第二名再加50%是不是對第二名第三名都是但是我們說到了未來幼托和子女育兒的對育兒子女的要求不是只有三歲之前對不對"},{"start":544.628,"end":566.104,"text":"也不是只有六歲之前對不對當然孩子是很成長的過程現在我們看到市場的趨勢這些課後的安親班如雨後春筍的取代了過去我們考高中大學的聯考補習班說明了一件事情12歲以下的學齡兒童成為我們目前年輕父母他最大的負擔你同意嗎"},{"start":567.174,"end":580.251,"text":"是確實育兒的經費是比較好那政府如何怎麼分攤照顧6到12歲的呢邱部長他想講不用了我們都做很多政府呢就是我們學年兒童國家跟你分攤一起照顧財政部可以做什麼莊部長"},{"start":581.425,"end":609.819,"text":"我想財政部的地方當然就是除了稅負的部分之外不是除了稅負的部分就是稅負的部分來請你針對這部分來我們下一題國有財產的相關的提供都有各種優惠的措施國有財產的土地要來釋出這是一個啦但是要知道目前年輕家長他托育的需求大概都跟我們的國有地不是那麼接近所以最好做的最容易做的就是特別扣除額特別扣除額可不可以擴散到12歲"},{"start":611.977,"end":640.324,"text":"委員這個建議我們要做一個評估是做一個評估來現在對不起本來想讓邱部長休息一下邱部長你們是不是有呼籲家有未滿12歲的兒童要做到一步二要不要讓孩子獨處抽空陪孩子每天抱抱孩子有沒有這是很重要的事情那我們財政部我們沒辦法幫家長陪孩子沒辦法抱抱孩子但是我們財政部是可以做到讓家長"},{"start":641.656,"end":664.434,"text":"避免孩子獨處送到6到12歲送到客戶安親班的時候他這樣的費用可不可以國家幫他減負擔莊部長我想這個部分相關的一些經費以及用什麼樣的方式支出都需要審慎的評估是的財政部左手右手啦你左手收稅右手交給衛福部擴大我們的客戶照顧擴大我們的"},{"start":665.732,"end":682.45,"text":"托育的費用對不對所以邱部長你現在放在托育政府照顧協助這樣托育的錢是不是財政部去籌來的是是嗎那如果要你不斷的擴大你的照顧範圍另外一方是財政部給你租稅優惠讓我們家有12歲以下看最後一頁"},{"start":683.513,"end":709.77,"text":"是不是研議將幼兒的學前特別扣除額擴大為兒童特別扣除額不是幼兒扣除額適用年齡擴大到12歲以下並提交評估報告可不可以提交評估報告喔 要隨時評估喔是是多久以前可以 多久之內可以我想至少兩個月吧好 給我們兩個月的時間兩個月的時間 看看明年報所得稅會來得及好不好兩位部長支持這個計畫吧 支持這個方案吧邱部長 支持不支持"},{"start":710.807,"end":723.099,"text":"站在兒童照顧的立場我們當然是很好的謝謝 莊部長聽到邱部長的話沒有你不幫忙減這個稅你要多付錢給他 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝莊委員的執行 下一位請賴會員召委執行 請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時6分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生。我們先請邱部長和食藥署王副署長，待會再請海巡署謝副署長以及財政部莊部長和國庫署、賦稅署兩位署長。"],["主席：請邱部長、食藥署副署長、財政部莊部長、國庫署及賦稅署幾位長官。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我覺得剛剛賴召委的質詢非常精彩，COVID-19之前，臺灣有辦法製造目前的這種口罩嗎？有沒有能力？COVID-19之前有沒有在做？"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嗎？世界上主要的口罩那邊來的？"],["邱部長泰源：那是外科口罩。"],["鍾委員佳濱：世界上主要的COVID-19防護口罩當時都是跟中國買的，後來臺灣趕快去進口那樣的表面噴劑，我們才有辦法自製，對不對？血袋是不是一個比較低階的產品？全世界大概集中在哪幾家工廠生產，你知道嗎？副署長，你跟部長講一下。"],["王副署長德原：跟委員報告，全世界主要是日本、美國跟歐洲有在生產。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以整個全球化經濟的結果，如果不是很通用性的醫材，有些就是少數的國家工廠在製造，但是剛剛召委的質詢結束前提到臺灣要有備戰的準備，包括我們的部立醫院的地下室要做緊急的傷患收治，包括這些會需要用到的醫材要趕快自主籌措，有自主徵召能力。部長，能不能做到？"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛醫事司也有報告，我們準備的藥材、醫材都有準備10萬人份的急救數量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，當我們準備這個的時候，你要想到什麼？去化，因為這些東西都有保存期限，所以你建立了緊急存量之後，你要思考到定期的推陳出新、去化。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，這是一定要做的，這是管理藥品一定要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，會後給我一個書面報告。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在詢問謝副署長。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下，請問為什麼金門海域走私日漸猖獗？我們看到新聞，金門的遊艇會到中國海域走私，非法運送臺灣的一些東西運到中國，包括電子產品運到中國，還有澳洲的龍蝦怎麼到中國的？是透過金門、馬祖，從臺灣把龍蝦進到中國去，包括這些顯卡、科技產品、無人機的晶片都用漁船搬貨。副署長，你們有沒有抓到過？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們抓到非常多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這是一個嚴重的問題。接下來，我們看到這兩天自由時報密集的報導，灰色海域越大，中國走私洗產地越容易，基本上是臺灣的漁民跟中國下單，他們在福建養成成貝，綁浮球在海上丟包，馬祖的漁民領貨，在馬祖海域暫放，然後變成臺灣的牡蠣，有沒有這樣的情況？"],["謝副署長慶欽：馬祖有查獲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：2023年馬祖本來的產量是148公噸，結果去年馬祖銷往臺灣的牡蠣1,500噸，你們不覺得可疑嗎？有沒有跟農業部去查一下，到底馬祖哪些人在養牡蠣？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們不僅跟地方漁業主管機關，也跟中央主管機關都協調過，我們是全力以赴在查緝。另外，我們希望從源頭管理，包括產銷履歷等等。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，產銷履歷就是農業部的事。金馬兩邊共同管理的海域就成為兩邊走私的漏洞，現在我們看到金廈海域有一個違規的蚵棚，現在金門縣政府有辦法去拆嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這是非法漁業行為，我們建議金門縣政府要依照漁業法要去拆除。"],["鍾委員佳濱：聽到沒有？你們建議金門縣政府拆除，海巡署可以去執行嗎？拆蚵架不是你們的事情嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們負責越界陸船。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們負責越界的……"],["謝副署長慶欽：包括拆除有安全顧慮的話，我們全程戒護，都沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在執法的困難在哪裡？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，剛好他核准的地方距離小金門、廈門各2公頃，而96年跟100年只有核准4公頃，剛好在我們檳榔嶼，就是在禁限水域線上，蚵棚就在旁邊，距離廈門一點的地方。"],["鍾委員佳濱：未來禁限水域如果退縮，是不是影響到我們的國安？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那禁限水域如果模糊，是不是走私越容易？"],["謝副署長慶欽：所以我們強勢執法、嚴正執法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你執法還要看法制怎麼訂。我們看一下，現在有在野黨立委主張，兩岸協商金馬的禁限水域要內海化，怎麼說？前項限制或禁止水域由海洋委員公告之，但是他把它淡化主權，他講說這些地方要跟陸方透過協商，定出陸方承認的我國司法行政有效水域，是這樣嗎？你覺得可以接受嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們不同意，因為這個案子涉及到國家安全、國防戰略還有區域的發展，這部分不是只有單單執法而已。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看到在野黨的關係文書，其中立法理由說：1949年以來的內戰狀態。其實我們解除動戡之後，就沒有什麼內戰的問題了，他們根本不懂這個法制觀念。","兩岸協商禁限制水域會擴大還是縮小？目前的作法是國防部公告禁限制水域，海巡署執法，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果未來照在野黨的法案通過的話，兩岸協商禁限制水域，然後要由陸委會公告，海巡署執法，而這些點是目前我們現有的禁限制水域遭對岸海警船入侵的軌跡點，至少目前還維持他們不敢越線，如果未來禁限制水域縮小的話，或對方不跟你協商的話，你覺得會面臨到什麼樣的情況？"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員，這涉及到國家主權的問題，這不是用協商陸方可以得來的，所以，我們堅持這是國家主權具體的展現。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以，如果現在我們有法律的授權之下，我們海巡署還可以維持這樣的海域及維護我們國家主權，如果這個法律更動了，海巡署恐怕沒有辦法執法了，我們更難去打擊兩岸走私，是不是？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。接下來請財政部長準備。","我們看一下，「反海上走私海巡準備好了嗎？」有沒有看過這樣的國外媒體報導？用科技的無人船來協助我們做這些高風險海域的巡邏，海巡署有沒有去探究類似的計畫？","前天有一個中科院的快奇計畫，你們有派人去看嘛。我們上上週才跟賴總統去看高雄港的操演，那這個東西你們有沒有引進？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們不僅在特別條例草案爭取260億的經費，在公共建設也同樣的爭取經費，以後不僅是要強化岸海紅外線監測設備，包括立體偵搜、水面跟水下的無人機。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請您承諾請海巡署研議運用無人載具強化我國禁限制水域的執法方案，可以嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，包括海底電纜……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，還有對於金馬水域走私猖獗的情況，我們應該用無人載具去反制，可以嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我都列入考量，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。我們接下來請財政部。"],["主席：請兩位長官，莊部長、陳署長，也請宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，這些新聞事件告訴我們一個社會現象，虐嬰、幼兒園的性侵、少子化後補習班不減反增，這說明了什麼？說明了我們現在的家長在養育子女的過程當中，從三歲之前的托嬰，到三到六歲的幼兒照顧，到六到十二歲課後照顧，我們現在家長是不是都越來越依賴這些照顧？"],["莊部長翠雲：確實，對於雙薪家庭來說，孩童有個安全的地方照顧孩子是很重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以政府有沒有義務責任要來推動相關政策，協助家長減輕他們的負擔？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們其實這幾年來也都做了蠻多相關的措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：莊部長，為什麼我是問你，不是問邱部長？因為這個議題邱部長很熟悉，但是莊部長，你要了解，苦民所苦。當我們看到勞動部昨天已經在研議彈性的育嬰假，讓企業可以臨時排班，也防止企業拒絕家長照顧嬰幼兒。而目前財政部針對學齡前的特別扣除額擴大到六歲，對不對？這是最近財政部做的嘛，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是六歲以下的第一名子女特別扣除額提高到15萬，第二名再加50%？是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，第二名、第三名都是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們說到，未來幼托和對育兒的要求不是只有三歲之前，對不對？也不是只有六歲之前，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，孩子成長的過程……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我們看到市場的趨勢，這些課後的安親班如雨後春筍，取代了過去我們考高中、大學的聯考補習班，這說明了一件事情，十二歲以下的學齡兒童成為我們目前年輕父母最大的負擔，你同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：確實，育兒的經費是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那政府如何分攤照顧六到十二歲的孩子呢？邱部長想講，但不用講了，因為我們都做很多，政府針對學齡兒童，國家跟你一起分攤、一起照顧。莊部長，財政部可以做什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想財政部當然就是除了稅賦的部分之外……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是說除了稅賦的部分，我就是說稅賦的部分，請你針對這部分講。"],["莊部長翠雲：其他還有我們國有財產相關的提供，都有各種優惠的措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國有財產的土地要來釋出，這是一個。但是要知道，目前年輕家長對托育的需求大概都跟我們的國有地不是那麼接近，所以最好做的、最容易做的就是特別扣除額，特別扣除額可不可以擴大到十二歲？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員這個建議我們要做一個評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：做一個評估。對不起，本來想讓邱部長休息一下。請邱部長，你們是不是有呼籲，家有未滿十二歲的兒童，要做到「一不、二要」？「不要讓孩子獨處、要抽空陪孩子、要每天抱抱孩子」，有沒有這個呼籲？"],["邱部長泰源：這是很重要的事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那財政部沒辦法幫家長陪孩子、沒辦法抱抱孩子，但是我們財政部是不是可以做到讓家長避免孩子獨處，六到十二歲送到課後安親班的時候，莊部長，這樣的費用可不可以國家幫他減輕負擔？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分的相關經費以及用什麼樣的方式支出都需要審慎的評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，財政部。左手右手啦！你們左手收稅，右手交給衛福部，來擴大我們的課後照顧及擴大我們的托育的費用，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以邱部長，現在放在政府協助托育的錢是不是財政部去籌來的？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！如果要你們不斷擴大你們的照顧範圍，另外方式是財政部給他們租稅優惠，讓我們家有十二歲以下……是不是研議將幼兒學前的特別扣除額擴大為兒童特別扣除額，不是幼兒扣除額，適用年齡擴大到十二歲以下兒童並提交評估報告，可不可以？提交評估報告，要稅式評估喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久之內可以提交？"],["莊部長翠雲：給我們兩個月的時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩個月的時間，趕在明年報所得稅時來不來得及，好不好？兩位部長支持這個計畫、支持這個方案吧？邱部長支不支持？"],["邱部長泰源：站在兒童照顧的立場，我們當然支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。莊部長有沒有聽到邱部長的話？你不幫忙減這個稅，你們要多付錢給他們，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},{"id":"162707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a737930d785221be3aac914d80f272b5bb4fe48e1f12328ce24c299908bd24946c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:18:46 - 10:28:13","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團、（三）委員張智倫等17人、（四）委員葉元之等21人及（五）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團、（二）委員鄭天財Sra 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有請次長麻煩次長委員好次長好委員好"},{"start":21.919,"end":50.641,"text":"從頭到尾聽了覺得你真的很為難但是新住民基本法從去年就是7月16號通過後依法內政部必須要成立新住民發展署當然我也了解成立一個署需要一定的行政跟時間所以將近一年的時間裡我持續針對新住民發展署也做了進度的質詢"},{"start":51.682,"end":75.255,"text":"但是非常辛苦爭取到的 足夠三級機關的源額但是沒想到部長 我們的內政部長之前質詢的時候 竟然說跟全民說我們三級機關已滿了連爭取這個已經通過 他都不知道所以上個月呢 省預算"},{"start":76.135,"end":101.721,"text":"解凍案的時候部長說相關的法律需要時間也需要行政總署協調所以沒辦法提出來剛才我們的行政總署也說開了22次的會內容是什麼但我們同樣來看了去年8月行政院宣布體育署升格為體育"},{"start":103.781,"end":113.546,"text":"體育部的時候呢原本的體育署改為全民運動署的字號改名後來呢又再這樣子的"},{"start":115.025,"end":143.615,"text":"組織草案早早就在去年11月排入宴會也順利在許多委員的提出版本裡面拔成共識在今年1月也三讀通過所以當一樣的事情輪到內政部毫無進度從通過基本法直到今天已經超過11個月了要審查新住民發展署的組織法"},{"start":144.455,"end":159.739,"text":"各委員包含台灣民眾黨都提出版本可是我們依然看不到院版也看不到內政部的版本我們要如何去討論不要說過去 說都說過去 說快點所以呢我們希望我們的市長剛才你說你開了七次的會議七次的會議你跟誰開 怎麼開的"},{"start":173.018,"end":176.152,"text":"你最了解嗎 所以你回答以上"},{"start":177.492,"end":207.092,"text":"好謝謝委員指教我想過去籌備小組的七次會議包括組織編制依照新住民基本法的內容的內容我們做業務分工所以我們已經研擬完成大概四個組有12個科那再來就是人員的編制那人員編制我們這邊也跟人總這邊所以你說你開了四次七次我看七次你七次裡面的是籌備小組嘛但是呢七次裡面我要的資料"},{"start":208.193,"end":230.693,"text":"有主題沒有記錄也沒有內容各部會公文跨部會的公文在哪裡完全沒有你說的7次內政部給我的公文12次一樣只有主題沒有記錄也沒有內容也沒有跨部會的公文剛才我們的總知總處說22次"},{"start":233.308,"end":241.155,"text":"用本的啊 大家都在催啊 在催啊 在說謊所以呢這個就是我們覺得說體育部做到 內政部卻遲遲提不出來這樣到底是部長說有困難 還是單純不想做"},{"start":251.303,"end":271.355,"text":"法治是規劃新住民發展署不可缺的一部 這個是依法行政 不是叫你去做的啦但是內政部行呢 開會的記錄就是這樣就是整理出來每一次開會 沒有時間 沒有地點 也沒有各部會 這樣叫做開會 還是"},{"start":274.386,"end":295.252,"text":"什麼會 統絡會吧我們可以看到的第五次跟第十二次的記錄裡面就是主題沒有記錄都有討論說新的機關組織草案但是關於說明的草案到現在目前的進度如何有沒有初步的版本讓我們能一起討論對不對 版本沒有"},{"start":300.793,"end":324.689,"text":"討論那麼多次浪費資源浪費大家的時間事實上有沒有討論又不知道所以討論什麼討論了我們中央組織要去改組織的時候體育部的時候你們要討論怎麼樣一起來提啊完全沒有當我們已經台灣民眾黨爭取到新住民發展署附帶決議三讀通過這個"},{"start":328.257,"end":354.879,"text":"然而也準備好給你們了你們還是沒有討論到連部長都不知道討論在哪裡去了所以呢關於哪個部會在哪裡完全不知道所以開會記錄也沒有所以再問說我們的內政部第五條裡面的內容我們新住民事務從移民署獨立出來的由我們發展署負責所以"},{"start":355.86,"end":383.371,"text":"那麼單純直接的修法因為看不到版本只要七條而已但是你們討論那麼多次你們是不做還是沒有能力做還是無能做要說清楚吧完全沒有所以呢這個不是說修法什麼這樣的意見所以我們感覺就是剛才我們的王一川委員說你們中國你們中國新住民"},{"start":384.918,"end":389.545,"text":"你們也說不要歧視這個中國能不能當署長"},{"start":390.956,"end":417.978,"text":"中國不能當署長新住民在台灣可以當署長誰說的剛才我們王傑委員說我們一樣的我們新住民拿到台灣的身份證是一樣權利一樣對不對權利一樣職權也是要一樣吧你們說要一樣一定要一樣啊為什麼這個人又說不一樣這個人又說不一樣對不對這裡也說不一樣但是呢我們張綺路委員又說"},{"start":419.318,"end":445.443,"text":"你拿到身份證那一刻你就是台灣人那一刻是台灣人不要分不要分為什麼有權力有職長有官位就要分所以說我們民進黨你們回去討論一下要討論你們要的不要一人說一句都不一樣的所以關於我們民眾黨提出的發展署"},{"start":446.4,"end":473.529,"text":"的法案裡面第二條第三款明定新住民發展署範圍就是新住民考試規劃執行督導與漲注希望的是什麼我們要強化新住民的政策新住民參與國家考試或者是說現在我們移民官裡面也有新住民在裡面考移民官"},{"start":474.469,"end":495.836,"text":"所以我们希望的是在我们的法里面有这样的考试类科考试类科怎么去删呢 怎么样补我们考试部说要来去这个删除我们是要讲的是我们要辅导要怎么样去督导监督奖励"},{"start":496.616,"end":522.173,"text":"他們要去考現在也有很多台灣人學不同國家的語言也在移民署裡面考這樣子的考官所以我們要的是考相關列科還有新住民也可以考其他人可以考但是我們希望說新住民優先是因為這個是鼓勵性質還有讓更多人有這個機會但是呢"},{"start":523.707,"end":542.78,"text":"條文不看來這裡拋空幹不好對不對我們要看條文關於這些條文關於這些規定來去問你們你們才答得出來不是都不懂來這裡問這是明嘴的方式所以希望我們今天把這個組織法"},{"start":544.341,"end":559.254,"text":"以裡面的組織法來去討論我們內政部行政沒有版本你們開會也開會不出來不到你們開的是同樂會還是什麼會完全沒有簽名完全沒有記錄完全沒有公文這個是叫做開會嗎連民間團體開會都比你們開會更有效率以上 謝謝好 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因為幾個跟預算有關的事項因為現在還有一項還沒有排我想先問 因為在這個六月的時候民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學有一個東海民主論壇"},{"start":24.128,"end":48.675,"text":"那因為這個院會進行,我們這邊蠻多不能過去的那是不是可以請部長或者說請民主基金會跟大家順便跟國人報告一下他最主要的一個目的還有他的一個結果來,請主席,委員您好,部長您好是,我們是其實六月十一號、十二號才過去那我們這一次是我們的台灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做"},{"start":50.175,"end":78.313,"text":"ADF is the Asia Democracy Forum我們已經舉辦第十一屆了那這個最主要是在東亞地區那包括日本、韓國包括菲律賓包括新加坡還有包括印度尼西亞這幾個國家是我們steering committee我們聚會最主要目的這次是討論我們怎麼樣重新適應調整民主的步伐增強我們的韌性那這些連結都是各地重要的NGO那所以這是我們基本上就是穩固"},{"start":78.993,"end":105.837,"text":"台灣在東亞地區既有的某種NGO的領導地位對 因為我最近偶爾有看到這一個相關的報導看起來就是有一些專家然後看起來不少的NGO啦那這個跟部長常提到的總和外交應該是非常的合致那因為我現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要我們在外交上面當然在日本上外交有一定的拓展但是因為日本的NGO有一些它也有一些官方的背景然後有一些NGO也比較低調"},{"start":106.497,"end":135.96,"text":"但我們如果能夠更長的接觸因為我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋樑所以呢希望能夠再多宣傳多跟國人講這件事情我認為這是非常重要的我跟委員報告其實執行長跟我講真的他們想做很多事情那也是跨黨派所以民主基金會的預算相對國際來講我們是當然是很也是表現的很好這個國會的支持如果能夠足以增加因為現在這個玉山論壇之後有推出這個IMGO中心在台灣"},{"start":136.62,"end":149.855,"text":"因為現在香港大家都知道這個中共的這個控制那其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或是分部的是台灣尤其是川普因為他對USAID的這個把他這個就是"},{"start":155.521,"end":184.941,"text":"改組之後所以我們這個過渡期間今年其實跟很多NGO INGO反而有更大的合作的這個空間所以這一點我想委員本身都有在推動我是覺得在預算上面如果大家肯定民主基金會我們在明年編列預算的時候我們來佐與增加希望可以因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事就是說在國際情勢的這一個變化當中尤其是不管是USA還有像NED"},{"start":185.821,"end":213.204,"text":"我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算但是也沒有到百分之百搞不好百分之五十、六十之類的這其實都應該是台灣能夠站出來的時候但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話我們也站不出來所以這個部分就反請部長到最後再做更好的一些規劃可以因應這不是只有中國威脅而已還包含美國內部政治的改變這個其實我們在民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要好 謝謝文哲哲"},{"start":213.624,"end":237.657,"text":"那接下來我問一個小問題,這個就是說最近我們這個外交部的小編在這個外交部的這個粉專上面在回應的時候呢,回應的比較嗆辣一點那我先講,我沒有說什麼要回去什麼小編要懲戒啦,或者要調查,我不是這個意思我在想的一件事情就是說,其實小編的回覆有一些是有創意的"},{"start":238.718,"end":267.584,"text":"但是問題是創意要用在哪一個部分我覺得這可以再思量因為我覺得以外交部的立場就是說小編是近期這一個尤其是這個網路世代所生的一個產物那它本身在過往假設我們在還沒有這個小編的時代它在很多網站它其實是類似有點像總編的一個地位但我們現在小編有時候就是因為小編某種程度它代表一個人格化的政府所以它會在上面做發言所以它某種程度還是會代表外交部"},{"start":269.065,"end":287.816,"text":"因為這個其實它是在針對跟中國有關的議題尤其是那時候跟六四有關這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方我們雖然把很多的業務是切給陸委會但其實對於中國的打壓在外面應對的是外交部所以在這個程度上面對方他去用什麼樣的話語我們要怎麼應對他還是有一種"},{"start":288.456,"end":316.142,"text":"外交辭令因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求小編當然是比較生活化然後讓人民覺得比較貼近就是說我這邊寫的他是一個比較親切的一個公僕的角色啦我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯但我想知道的是因為其實小編的地位我認為應該要提升那在小編地位提升的時候呢表示他在比如說他要去回覆他要去發文他一定會有一定程度的審核SOP因為他要跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接嘛"},{"start":316.922,"end":341.699,"text":"那所以在這個方面現在我們這個對於小編譬如說他發文的SOP或者回文的SOP還有呢到底是誰在審核這個機制現在有沒有慢慢建立起來好我們國傳室當然有一些機制我再聽他說不過我覺得委員提這個問題非常好因為現在在社群媒體的時代你怎麼樣很及時的互動那當然要正確另外至於說有一定的"},{"start":343.325,"end":371.44,"text":"就是說活潑性這個空間我並沒有去責怪任何的人但是用的語言因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊那小編也是人他有用某種方式去回應我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度但是因為是外交部我們有一些語詞在用的時候我們稍微要有一個理解"},{"start":372.34,"end":396.37,"text":"就是這個畢竟是你一個用人物的方式來呈現外交部所以這個我都沒有去責備我們的小人物我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛我們外交部或國家面對到那些網軍其實很多甚至AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候但是我就覺得大家也不用應該講說"},{"start":400.578,"end":414.798,"text":"跟對方一般見識啦我覺得用一些有時候更更有智慧的方式或更比較就是不是去嗆"},{"start":416.482,"end":440.16,"text":"跟對方一樣的方式陷入對方的邏輯因為這個其實說真的當時有成為新聞的報導但某種程度又呈現了一次就是說中國對我們的打壓所以當然在呈現的目的上面我們其實可以讓別人知道說這個事情的嚴重性因為其實現在尤其是外交部或者說我們總統的臉書這個是外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版所以那個感受當然也不是很好"},{"start":440.74,"end":464.156,"text":"所以我可以理解他當時的這個心境,以及回文,其實某種程度都凸顯了這個問題那我覺得,所以我不會說這是一個對錯的問題,但是就是我們以後,因為小編的責任會越來越重大在現今的這個社會,所以他的那個審核的機制啦,SOP啦等等之類的然後每一次如果出現了什麼事情,誰要來說明什麼等等之類的這個機制如果建立好,我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要啦"},{"start":465.437,"end":493.084,"text":"還有檢視一下這個機制對希望能夠趕快建立好 趕快建立那接下來就是這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過但是我覺得也有必要在這個時間點我覺得我也可以再問一次就是說因為經濟學人這個他有統計說這個全球有這一個70個國家去認同這個認同其實不是說單純一個中國的問題而是就是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成"},{"start":494.944,"end":518.377,"text":"統一這個錯誤的字眼其實就是侵略就是用任何的手段去達成侵略這一件事情中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易中國要去說服別的國家這個我們很難去達成但是我們總是要有一些反制的方案這是第一個第二個就是這一件事情因為外媒報導但其實台灣內部對這一個的報導其實是比較少的"},{"start":518.777,"end":540.855,"text":"但我總覺得這其實應該要讓國人知道因為陸委會有時候做很多比如說就是風險的控管啊什麼等等之類的我覺得陸委會在這一邊的能量不一定有辦法還要再關注這一事情但因為這個事情涉及是中國跟別的國家的外交事務我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚的讓國人知道應該會是一件重要的事"},{"start":541.348,"end":569.07,"text":"我想這句話好好跟委員說這個事情非常重要因為中共在造成新常態它跟很多國家的共同聲明它就是最近有兩個現象一個就是把聯合國所謂27582決議要放進去變成所謂一中原則的依據另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來所謂統一台灣"},{"start":570.131,"end":587.246,"text":"或是說推動國家的統一這個是在對武力犯台建立它在法理上的基礎所以我們當跟很多國家講他才意識到所以我們也曾經阻止了最近這半年來中國企圖壓迫一些國家"},{"start":588.77,"end":609.321,"text":"就是寫上了這幾句話就是說認同中國可以採用一切手段統一台灣他們才意識到因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺那我們也透過這個東西去操作比如說像今年的應該說G7在日本的某種程度就是提醒因為以前都會講一個中國的政策"},{"start":612.796,"end":635.162,"text":"可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別那老共就是不斷地用這個方法去扭曲所以當這個時候其實G7已經我們看到就沒有再去提所謂的一中政策我們也是用這個跟很多國家的他們都覺得有道理因為一中政策會被一中原則給去把它扭曲因為其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣"},{"start":636.082,"end":657.936,"text":"所以這個也是另外一個我們的反制那也有成功的例子那至於說70幾個認同他這個樣子其實還有100多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通避免再有更多重複這樣的一個情形那就像說法律戰在為他的軍事犯台建立所謂的這個不管是法理基礎或是未來"},{"start":659.367,"end":672.924,"text":"這個混合戰的操作所以這一點確實委員有提出來這是我們現在在外交領域上可以說每天都在面對的一個新常態那我們也有所因應感謝部長不好意思超過一點時間謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時13分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：在一開始先提到，除了預算解凍以外，幾個跟預算有關的事項，現在還有一項還沒有排。我想先問，在6月的時候，民主基金會有去日本跟一橋大學進行東亞民主論壇，因為院會期間，我們這邊也蠻多人不能過去，是不是可以請部長或者請民主基金會跟大家及國人報告一下其最主要的目的和結果？"],["林部長佳龍：好，請執行長說明。"],["廖執行長達琪：主席、委員，您好。部長，您好。我們其實6月11號、12號才過去，這一次是臺灣民主基金會的旗艦計畫叫做East Asia Democracy Forum，我們已經舉辦第11屆了，最主要是在東亞地區，包括日本、韓國、菲律賓、新加坡，還有印度尼西亞，這幾個國家是我們的steering committee。我們這次會議最主要的目的是討論怎麼樣重新適應、調整民主的步伐，增強我們的韌性，這些連結的都是各地重要的NGO，我們基本上就是穩固臺灣在東亞地區既有某種NGO的領導地位。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我今天偶有看到相關的報導，看起來就是有一些專家，然後有不少的NGO，這個跟部長常提到的總合外交應該是非常的合致。現在我們跟日本的關係其實變得越來越重要，當然我們跟日本在外交上也有一定的拓展，但是因為日本的NGO有一些官方的背景，然後有一些NGO也比較低調，但我們如果能夠更常接觸，我覺得民主基金會是一個很好的橋梁，所以希望能夠再多宣傳，多跟國人講這件事情，我認為這是非常重要的。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實執行長跟我們講，他們真的想做很多事情，也是跨黨派，所以民主基金會的預算……相對國際來講，我們當然也是表現得很好，因為有國會的支持，但如果能再酌予增加……","現在玉山論壇之後，有推出INGO（國際非政府組織）中心在臺灣，因為大家都知道現在香港被中共控制，其實在印太地區最適合發展這種國際非政府組織作為總部或分部的是臺灣，尤其是因為川普對於USAID進行改組之後，在這個過渡期間，我們今年其實跟很多NGO、INGO反而有更大的合作空間，這一點委員本身都有在推動，我是覺得在預算上面，如果大家肯定民主基金會，在明年編列預算的時候希望能夠酌予增加，請大家支持。"],["沈委員伯洋：希望可以，因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的一件事，就是說在國際情勢的變化當中，尤其不管是USAID，還有像NED，我知道他們最近可能慢慢能夠取回一定程度的預算，但是也沒有到百分之百，搞不好50%、60%之類的，這其實都應該是臺灣能夠站出來的時候，但偏偏我們的預算如果不夠的話，我們也站不出來，所以這個部分就煩請部長到時候再做更好的一些規劃跟因應……"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：這不是只有中國威脅而已，還包含美國內部政策的改變，其實我們民主基金會的因應我認為特別重要。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來我問一個小問題，最近外交部的小編在外交部粉專回應的時候，回應得比較嗆辣一點，我先講我沒有說什麼要回去對小編懲戒或者調查，我不是這個意思，我在想的一件事情就是，其實小編的回復有一些是有創意的，但問題是創意要用在哪一個部分？我覺得這可以再思量，我覺得以外交部的立場……小編是近期尤其是網路世代所生的一個產物，過往還沒有小編的時代，在很多網站其實是有點類似像總編的一個地位，但現在小編有時候就是……因為小編某種程度代表一個人格化的政府，他會在上面發言，所以某種程度還是會代表外交部。因為他這是針對跟中國有關的議題，尤其那時候是跟六四有關，這當然也是現在很尷尬的地方，我們雖然把很多的業務切給陸委會，但其實對於中國的打壓，在外面應對的是外交部，所以在這個程度上面，對方用什麼樣的話語，我們要怎麼應對，還是有一種外交辭令，因為外交部本身有外交辭令上的一些要求。小編當然是比較生活化，然後讓人民覺得比較貼近，就像我這邊寫的，他是一個比較親切的公僕角色，我並沒有說這個一定是對或錯。其實我認為小編的地位應該要提升，小編地位提升之後，表示他在回復、發文時會有一定程度的審核及SOP，因為他跟外交部其實要更緊密的對接，在這個方面，對於小編發文或回文的SOP，還有到底是誰在審核這個機制，現在有沒有慢慢建立起來？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們國傳司當然有一些機制，我待會請他說。不過我覺得委員提這問題非常好。現在在社群媒體的時代，要怎麼樣很即時的互動，首先當然要正確，另外又要有一定的活潑性，這個空間如何捏，我並沒有去責怪任何人，但是用的語言，因為涉及到有一些是網軍來攻擊，小編也是人，他用某個方式去回應，我是覺得其實社會可以從另外一個角度看待；但是因為是外交部，有一些語詞在用的時候稍微要有一個理解，畢竟是用人物的方式來呈現外交部，我都沒有去責備我們的小編。我覺得一個人願意在第一線去捍衛外交部或國家，面對到網軍，甚至面對AI機器人大量的假訊息在攻擊的時候，我覺得大家也不用跟對方一般見識，我覺得有時候可以用更有智慧的方式或比較不是跟對方一樣用嗆的方式，而陷入對方的邏輯。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為說真的那時候有成為新聞的報導，某種程度其實又呈現了一次中國對我們的打壓，所以當然在呈現的目的上面，我們可以讓別人知道這個事情的嚴重性，因為現在尤其是在外交部或我們總統的臉書，外國的網軍很喜歡來洗版，所以感受當然也不是很好，我可以理解他當時的心境以及回文，其實某種程度凸顯了這個問題。我不會說這是一個對錯的問題，但是以後，因為小編在現今社會的責任會越來越重大，所以有關審核的機制、SOP等等，以及每一次如果出現了什麼事情誰要來說明等等之類的，這個機制如果建立好，我覺得可能比個案還要來得更重要。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們會檢視一下這個機制。"],["沈委員伯洋：對、對、對，希望能夠趕快建立。","接下來這個問題其實我之前有稍微提過，但是在這個時間點我覺得也有必要再問一次，因為經濟學人有統計，全球已有70個國家認同，這個認同不是單純一個中國的問題，而是中國到底有沒有權利用任何手段達成統一，統一是錯誤的字眼，其實就是侵略，也就是有關用任何的手段去達成侵略的這件事情，中國一直嘗試去說服別的國家。我知道外交部要應對這件事情不是那麼容易，中國要去說服別的國家，這個我們很難去擋，但我們總是要有一些反制的方案，這是第一個。","第二個就是，這件事情外媒有報導，而臺灣內部對這個部分的報導其實是比較少的，但我總覺得這應該要讓國人知道，因為陸委會有時候做很多比如風險控管等等之類的，我覺得陸委會在這邊的能量，不一定還有辦法再關注這件事情，但因為這個事情涉及中國跟別的國家的外交事務，我覺得外交部如果能夠把這件事情更清楚地讓國人知道，應該會是一件重要的事。"],["林部長佳龍：我想這就要好好跟委員說明，這個事情非常重要，因為中共在造成新常態，他跟很多國家的共同聲明，最近有兩個現象，一個就是要把聯合國第2758號決議放進去，變成所謂一中原則的依據；另外一個就是所謂認同或支持中國可以採取任何手段來統一臺灣，或是說推動國家的統一，這個是在對武力犯臺建立他們在法理上的基礎，所以當我們跟很多國家講時，他們才意識到，我們也曾經阻止了……最近這半年來，中國企圖壓迫一些國家要寫上這幾句話，就是認同中國可以採用一切手段統一臺灣，因為有時候有些人可能在應付或是不知覺，那我們也透過這個東西去操作，比如像今年的G7，日本某種程度就是提醒，因為以前都會講一個中國政策，可是一個中國政策跟一個中國原則很難分別，老共就是不斷用這個方法去扭曲，所以在G7，我們就已經看到沒有再去提所謂的一中政策，我們也是用這個跟很多國家講，他們都覺得有道理，因為一中政策會被一中原則給扭曲掉，其實各個國家的一中政策也不太一樣，這個也是另外一個我們的反制，也有成功的例子。至於說有七十幾個國家認同他們，但其實還有一百多個國家我們要做好跟他們的溝通，避免再有更多重複這樣的情形。就像法律戰，他們為他們的軍事犯臺建立所謂的不管是法理基礎或是未來混合戰的操作，這一點確實委員有提出來，這也是我們現在在外交領域上，可以說每天都要面對的一個新常態，而我們也有所因應。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，感謝部長，不好意思，超過一點時間，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委的質詢。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a730580efa47e51b02ac914d80f272b5bb4fe48e1f12328ce2494885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:12:03 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市長"},{"start":163.19,"end":189.633,"text":"其實我當然會希望新住民基本法去施行的結果是第一個是要讓他成為我國國民之後融入台灣社會這才是我們的目的那對於他的其他的業務如何融入在文化教育或者是就業給予一些協助我想這才是應該新住民基本法的最主要目的融入之後然後成為我國的國民當然就是我國的國民就依照我們國民的相關規定沒有還有一個很重要的觀點"},{"start":191.141,"end":219.406,"text":"我們的原住民族基本法原住民族他是在台灣這塊土地上他有特殊的文化他有特殊的傳統他們的風俗而且他是比我們都還找到台灣這塊土地的人所以他有他的特殊性他有他的文化歷史幾千年來的你一個移民到台灣來的人他應該是最想要融入台灣吧"},{"start":220.683,"end":239.916,"text":"是不是應該是對啊那應該是我們用法律把他框住了框住他不能變為真正的台灣人我覺得這個好像是有點說不過去我們要保障是他在到台灣的時候還沒有拿到"},{"start":240.857,"end":265.302,"text":"身份證的時候這一段的期間我們要去輔導他去保護他有一些這一點應該是一個短暫的時刻而不是永遠我覺得舉例來講美國算是一個很大的移民社會吧美國有這些法律嗎雖然沒社會但是我相信都是一個文化不同的世界移民到美國我跟你講"},{"start":266.584,"end":294.726,"text":"你要成為美國公民的時候不是要宣誓你現在開始這一刻就是美國公民然後你要盡很多的義務什麼的這個就很簡單啊美國是一個最大的移民社會啊那我們要讓任何人來台灣我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同台灣而不是把他框住你要把保護他要什麼是一段的過程而且今天的修法"},{"start":296.487,"end":311.193,"text":"還有說國家考試要保障這個新住民我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善雖然這不是你的業務我不知道次長你的看法"},{"start":312.994,"end":338.386,"text":"謝謝委員那我想我們國家的規定其實有行政院有立法院有考試院等等相關的院那各有各的職長跟權責啦那我相信國家考試任用這是考試院的權責所以我們內政部其實就算我們是三級機關未來這個成立這個新住民發展署其實也應該不能逾越這個考試的權責是這樣子不過重點是如果他可以參加國家考試"},{"start":339.755,"end":350.405,"text":"他要不要有台灣的身份證他是不是中華民國的國民重點是在這裡啊我覺得要統一啦因為只要是國民應該享有權利義務都是平均的"},{"start":350.991,"end":368.98,"text":"對啊他已經拿到身份證了他才能去參加國家考試啊對不對我們是要保障他在拿到身份證這之前我們要好好的保障他我覺得台灣啊雖然也是個移民社會但台灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜我們不要把它搞複雜在國外"},{"start":371.221,"end":392.475,"text":"還有難民的問題台灣目前是沒有的我們就跑好的把新住民該給的照顧把它做好不要複雜化這樣子我覺得把它複雜化新住民也不是他的福利啦不知道部長你的看法 次長你的看法謝謝委員 我想委員剛剛講的部分其實我個人十分認同好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時12分）我請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，我們今天討論這個法案，之前在內政委員會也有討論，大家對要定基本法或權益保障法就有很大的分歧，我相信這個次長也知道。次長，我請問一下，對新住民要不要照顧？"],["吳次長堂安：要。"],["張委員宏陸：我也認為要，但是有很多新住民也不願意一輩子被人家稱呼新住民。"],["吳次長堂安：對，不要標籤化。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，我覺得內政部可以對新住民做民調，看有多少人是希望永遠被稱呼新住民，或是希望人家跟他們說你是中華民國國民、你就是臺灣人，我覺得你們可以做一些民調讓社會大眾知道。有很多人跟我說他不想永遠被叫新住民，對他的下一代好像也覺得不甚公平，對不對？"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以社會上有不同聲音，而且如果新住民拿到臺灣中華民國的身分證，他到底是不是中華民國的國民？"],["吳次長堂安：報告委員，當然是。"],["張委員宏陸：啊？"],["吳次長堂安：拿到身分證……"],["張委員宏陸：拿到身分證之後，那一刻他的身分是不是就轉變了？"],["吳次長堂安：他就是國人。"],["張委員宏陸：他的身分是不是轉變了？次長，你要說這一句，他的身分是不是就是轉變為國人，他的身分已經轉變了？"],["吳次長堂安：是的，拿到身分證一定是中華民國的國民。"],["張委員宏陸：對。所以我們要保障照顧新住民，確實是要，但也不能用一個什麼叫做新住民的基本法，把他的身分匡一輩子，好像覺得對他特別照顧，但其實也有某種相對反面的感覺他是不同的人，永遠沒辦法融入臺灣這個社會，永遠沒辦法真正成為一個臺灣人，會不會有這種情況，次長？"],["吳次長堂安：其實我們當然希望新住民基本法施行結果，第一個是讓他成為我國國民之後融入臺灣社會，這才是我們的目的。對於其他的業務，如何融入、在文化教育就業給予協助，這才是新住民基本法的最主要目的，融入之後成為我們國民，當然就是我們的國民，就依照我們國民相關規定。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有，還有一個很重要的觀點，我們的原住民族基本法，原住民族在這塊土地上有特殊文化、特殊傳統、風俗，而且他們是還比我們都還早到臺灣這塊土地的人，他有他的特殊性、幾千年來的文化歷史。以一個移民到臺灣來的人，他應該最想要融入臺灣，是不是？"],["吳次長堂安：應該是。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，應該是，我們又用法律把他框住了，框住他不能變成真正的臺灣人，這好像有點說不過去。我們是要保障他到臺灣還沒有拿到身分證的時候，這段期間要去輔導、保護他，應該是以一個短暫時刻，而不是永遠。舉例來講，美國算是一個很大的移民社會，美國有這些法令嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：雖然沒涉獵，但我相信都是不同文化的世界移民到美國。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，成為美國國民不是要宣誓從這一刻開始就是美國公民，要盡很多義務什麼的，這很簡單啊，美國是一個最大的移民社會，所以我們要讓任何人來臺灣，我覺得最重要的就是要讓他認同臺灣，而不是把他框住，是一段過程要保護他。而且今天的修法還有說國家考試要保障新住民，我不知道次長你認為妥善不妥善？雖然這不是你的業務，但你的看法呢？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員。我們國家的規定有行政院、立法院、考試院等等相關的院，各有各的職掌跟權責，國家考試任用這是考試院的權責，我們內政部就算未來成立新住民發展署是三級機關，應該也不能逾越考試的權責。"],["張委員宏陸：重點是如果他可以參加國家考試，他要不要有臺灣的身分證？他是不是中華民國的國民？重點在這裡。"],["吳次長堂安：我覺得要統一，只要是國民，享有的權利義務都是平均的。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，他已經拿到身分證了，才能去參加國家考試，對不對？我們是要保障他在拿到身分證之前，要好好地保障他，我覺得臺灣雖然也是移民社會，但臺灣的新住民問題沒有那麼複雜，我們不要搞複雜，國外還有難民的問題，臺灣目前是沒有的，我們就好好的把新住民該給的照顧做好，不要複雜化，這樣子複雜化對新住民也不是他的福利，不知道次長你的看法？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員，我想委員剛剛講的部分，我個人十分認同。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等21人、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(三)委員張智倫等17\n人、(四)委員葉元之等21人及(五)委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草\n案」案；二、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等21人、(三)國民黨黨\n團、(四)委員張智倫等17人、(五)委員葉元之等21人及(六)委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部\n新住民發展署組織法草案」案","agenda_id":"1146101_00002"}}},{"id":"162704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a7347ee9490586f9053c914d80f272b5bb4fe48e1f12328ce248d85ac98af4f42af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:05:23 - 10:11:57","影片長度":"00:06:34","會議時間":"2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團、（三）委員張智倫等17人、（四）委員葉元之等21人及（五）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團、（二）委員鄭天財Sra 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次長好 首先想要先跟您請教一下因為其實我們當初在審這個新住民的基本法的這個審理過程前面有一個非常重要的前提就是因為其實新住民的身份是一個過渡的它並不是永久的所以其實當初我們在說到底要基本法還是權益保障法的時候就經過一番爭論了因為其實我們知道說新住民的身份就是不是像原住民或客家的族群它就是 是長久的身份"},{"start":48.214,"end":70.169,"text":"那隨著時間的推移那之後他融入台灣身份然後甚至拿到國籍之後其實是會改變的那也就是說他之後可能就會變成台灣人所以這個新住民的基本法對我來說我一直過不去的點就是他是一個過渡期的保障的權益的保障的一段期間但是我們現在卻要不斷的用基本法來涵蓋這整個"},{"start":71.85,"end":83.719,"text":"新住民的範圍這其實是蠻衝突的一件事情那就例如說已經取得身份證的新住民他之後其實就是台灣人嘛就應該要跟國人是享有同等的義務跟權利的那針對這段過度的時間給予適當的協助融入台灣的社會然後彌平這個落差然後不要永久的標籤化他們是新住民這個我認為才是一個對的目標啦"},{"start":99.031,"end":116.397,"text":"所以今天討論這個新住民的組織法必須要在這樣的前提之上我認為非常重要才知道說到底在這段期間怎麼保障他們的權益怎麼樣在這個組織法裡面進行這一些權責的分配那我看了一下其實今天這個我們要真的要進到細則的這個權責分配就會變得非常的複雜"},{"start":119.898,"end":137.382,"text":"就例如說我認為裡面涵蓋了各式各樣的部會其實都是衝突的甚至是重疊的就例如說我隨便舉個例子例如說這個有一個委員裡面有提到說如果新住民署裡面的人權保障跟歧視的申訴這樣子的業務應該是哪一個單位負責"},{"start":141.383,"end":161.258,"text":"那他說接下來要由新住民的發展署來負責但其實我們目前在行政院的人權處就有這樣子的工作了所以到時候是說如果是新住民的身份這段期間是要把這個業務撥給新住民發展署然後那他成為國人之後再撥回人權處是這個意思嗎"},{"start":163.219,"end":182.998,"text":"謝謝委員指教我想我們這次也是依照新住民基本法的內容那也誠如剛剛委員所談的因為有些像人權性別歧視或者是不公平待遇的部分那其實在院裡面其實都有分工啦沒錯 性平處人權處其實針對這一些申訴的管道跟這一些負責其實都有嘛"},{"start":184.059,"end":200.234,"text":"那目前這個意思就是說如果他是新住民身份那不好意思你就是專責在這個新住民發展所裡面處理那如果你等你不是新住民身份你成為國人了那我們再重新回到人權處跟性平處是這個意思嗎所以這個就是有漢格的地方"},{"start":200.774,"end":228.909,"text":"那要怎麼處理那我這邊也跟委員報告那其實新住民只要取得我國國民身份的話其實就是國人那新住民基本法照他的架構來講應該是說婚姻移民專業技術跟新住民子女但是新住民子女他其實慢慢就已經融入國人了那照理講我們是要照顧新住民啦但是不是說把他做一個標籤化或區隔化應該是要這樣那剛剛委員所垂詢的一些相關的業務內容那這也是我們目前跟幾個部會要去做釐清的那有些是在"},{"start":229.209,"end":252.022,"text":"沒有啊 我今天就是來希望我們進入實質的討論因為等一下就要準備主條了嘛這個就是今天最大的問題啊就是你們跟各部會之間的權責到底有漢格之處怎麼釐清這就是大家今天想知道我這邊只是舉個例子喔後面還有包括新住民廣播電視規劃新住民國家考試的規劃甚至教育協助的規劃督導"},{"start":253.363,"end":267.395,"text":"這些他全部都放在裡面很多委員版本裡面都有所以到時候考選部文化部NCC教育部這些大家所有的部會的權責是只要是新住民身份全部都放在發展署嗎是這樣子嗎"},{"start":269.164,"end":296.176,"text":"我很想知道啊就包括其實剛剛一川委員這個問題也是啊難道新住民身份的如果跟其他部會夜館的職務有衝突的時候是直接以這個為主嗎因為他其實他的根據是新住民的基本法那基本法的這個他的法律位階是很高的也就是說所以我們接下來所有就是把新住民跟國人切開嗎那這樣子真的好嗎"},{"start":298.143,"end":312.42,"text":"謝議員我想就是因為跟其他相關目的事業主管機關的主管法規其實都有衝突的地方那這個就是我們要去釐清的所以我希望你在這裡釐清啊什麼叫做你們要去釐清的"},{"start":313.001,"end":317.985,"text":"所以這才要還要跟各部會再去做進一步的去就這個業務分工要做確認那你們討論過了嗎開過會了嗎我們在我們的我剛剛隨便提幾個部會就已經非常多了人權處性評處考選部文化部教育部甚至NCC這個全部他把所有的這些職長都放在裡面"},{"start":333.539,"end":348.412,"text":"所以我們才會認為說這個部分是應該有些是不應納入啦真的有些是不應納入所以等一下我們進到主條的時候你會一一的告訴我們哪一些不應納入在這個組織法裡面是這樣子嗎如果可以讓我提供意見我一定會提供我一定會講"},{"start":349.173,"end":365.245,"text":"那我現在就是希望你提供啊那其實在這個條文內容有些比較不適宜像社會保險法律諮詢像考試權任用像這些部分其實這個都有關係啦因為我們目前這個都不是院的版本所以那院的版本"},{"start":367.303,"end":389.47,"text":"這個也要跟委員報告所以我們還是要先把剛剛講的衛福 勞動 文化 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因為我們只是公佈之後再就是可以來登記嘛那因為我們並沒有審查也沒有在執行了那我跟委員提一下為什麼外交是很很微妙因為我們都知道現在因為以色列認為伊朗背後有中國的支持所以我們跟以色列關係是有很大的空間所以怎麼樣在國際的這個"},{"start":112.823,"end":138.473,"text":"規範或者是一些之下我們能夠跟以色列加強關係我們當然會因著情勢做調整不會說讓我們的國人去置於險境可是這代表一個我們對於以色列其實就算說其實他們還是有分區啦比如說在北境或者是在加薩那附近當然是市級的警戒紅色可是其他的地方"},{"start":139.113,"end":153.628,"text":"其實他們常年處於這種可能的威脅之下他們也是在過正常生活所以我們怎麼樣不會過度反應但是也能夠隨著情勢去做調整就像很多人會覺得從國外的媒體報導以為台灣很危險"},{"start":157.992,"end":169.095,"text":"那我們也希望大家來台灣之後會發現沒有那麼危險那這個判斷是什麼必須要有事實的依據所以我想說這個外交我們跟以色列透過這樣一個度假打工讓很多國家當然包括澳洲紐西蘭韓國等等也都是如此的時候我們怎麼樣跟國際同步"},{"start":176.717,"end":179.558,"text":"目前我們知道我們簽了18個國家啦那麼因為這個題目為什麼本席會特別希望在質詢台上講也是因為我覺得就是讓部長跟外交部有一個好好來說明的機會就像您剛剛說的這個外交或者是國跟國之間的狀況瞬息萬變但是目前因為我們已經停止受理了之後"},{"start":199.482,"end":205.028,"text":"那麼接下來外交部怎麼樣來規劃因為畢竟約簽了我們也不可能片面的就終止因為這個包括其實是兩個國家之間彼此之間在外交上面的協定那麼以目前的狀況停止了之後那麼外交部有沒有針對這個部分做研究跟了解那麼接下來當面對類似的狀況的時候又會大概如何來處理 部長"},{"start":223.508,"end":233.019,"text":"這個都有標準作業程序啦我們簽了這個但是當然會依照這個情字來做判斷那所以是受理"},{"start":233.764,"end":252.787,"text":"到他去辦理真正的度假打工這還是兩個階段是可是我們不能講說因為這個危機那我們就對外交有時候反而是一個契機啦就是雙邊關係的提升可是我們一定把安全置於最重要的一個基礎"},{"start":253.508,"end":277.462,"text":"因為畢竟部長也知道當這樣的訊息之前6月1號在網路上曝光之後我相信外交部也收到包括臉書或者是社群媒體上也收到許多的反饋是說怎麼把我們的青年直接就送上了危險的第一線所以在這個評估跟說明的部分外交部也必須要再更有"},{"start":279.543,"end":285.788,"text":"激敏 敏感度一點 對因為這個部分確實在時間點上面會讓外界覺得說非常的敏感那至於說什麼時候會再繼續重啟我想這個也要看兩個地區之間的戰況或者是彼此的最新的訊息那所以說現在目前為止來講因為它當時是個黃色燈號那我知道我們其實在外交上面有灰色 黃色 橙色跟紅色嘛灰色是提醒那麼黃色是注意"},{"start":308.126,"end":317.874,"text":"那麼有沒有可能未來在這個部分提升到說如果一旦是有黃色燈號的時候至少我們就不需要先公告還是說因為當時已經跟以色列有說明了就是要在2025年的6月1號要開始實施我們還是要依照國際規範來辦理而且要跟國際同步避免過猶不及啦"},{"start":330.484,"end":352.516,"text":"那因為我們旅遊的景色很多國家的情況不斷的在變化我們都會做滾動式的調整那從外交看來講啦因為其實以色列更能夠感受到跟台灣真的是我們都面對強敵的威脅那我們也在過正常的生活那這個地方通案性的去通過了度假打工"},{"start":354.097,"end":376.649,"text":"跟我們個案什麼時候要去實施這個我們都會應照情勢來做一些評估跟判斷那所以有一些說什麼偷偷拿下來或者是說為什麼這個時候去公佈不公佈才奇怪公佈但是是隨著情勢去調整那這個都有依據比如說那些旅遊的警示就是很好的依據而且我剛剛講跟國際同步"},{"start":378.82,"end":383.342,"text":"這才不會讓人家覺得我們有時候沒有反應也不好啦反應過度所以您部長的意思就是其實在有關於這個度假打工公佈的同時其實在國際上也是認為此刻這樣子比如說讓留學生又或者是這些實習生到以色列區其實是安全的所以我們也沒有做的特別的超過但我們也沒有特別的不敏感"},{"start":404.17,"end":407.871,"text":"其實都是跟國際同步的狀況韓國跟澳洲紐西蘭都持續辦理中但是最近的情況也都在調整中好 了解那麼另外一個當然就是我們今天會解凍一個三百萬的台灣對國際關懷救助及重建的業務費那因為我們知道其實台灣現在面對就是我們的宣傳費在外交部這個外交單位的部分是完全都"},{"start":430.719,"end":444.164,"text":"被刪除了所以本席其實當然也要特別肯定部長啦現在是用一種文化外交或總和外交的方式讓台灣走出去尤其是本席過去一直非常關注台灣的藝文展演可不可以在國際上發光那麼這一次部長到休斯頓去推動這個台灣Tower就加深台美的文化關係然後包括我們台灣的藝術家Aka Chen特別到這個美國美東美西都去做了展覽"},{"start":458.669,"end":474.894,"text":"那麼四月份捷克也跟我們簽了國家文物的保護法所以我們故宮要到捷克去做展覽其實我覺得這個部分都是非常好的那我不知道部長知不知道接下來包括像這個台灣的台北的故宮現在呢跟這個美國大都會的展覽現在也開始了那麼還有就是連續"},{"start":481.736,"end":504.835,"text":"三年這個環法自行車也會在我們的南投舉行我自己都認為這個是一個非常好的文化外交或符合你的總和外交在我們的這個所謂外交部的國際宣傳費用被砍到零甚至於負的狀況底下喔北溪市要特別提出來質詢但是也肯定部長跟外交部的同仁透過文化跟其他的部會的結合喔可以讓台灣持續被看見"},{"start":507.757,"end":517.424,"text":"是 我跟委員也依照這個機會報告當然預算 台灣現在外交部的預算我站我們中央政府總預算已經不到1%"},{"start":519.298,"end":542.197,"text":"那逐年地檢從1.79%在這個2008年那個時候所以我們要現在全世界想跟台灣來往的越來越多所以我剛剛講比如科技外交我們的半導體AI這些是在像美國日本歐洲另外文化外交是軟實力好像故宮在捷克"},{"start":543.197,"end":566.566,"text":"還有這個法國的一個展出 9月跟11月陸續這個百件文物那我們就把它發展成歐洲台灣文化年那把這個品牌打出去就是這個是我們當然沒錢也有沒錢的做法就多辦活動啦那當然其實宣傳效果透過活動當然是一個但是如果能夠讓我們有宣傳的費用我想可以達到更多的人歐洲我們有26個館處都動起來"},{"start":568.667,"end":580.431,"text":"都把他們年度要辦的活動整合成一個歐洲台灣文化年很精彩的包括這一次去教廷的台灣原民原聲合唱團那真的是驚動了整個歐洲嘆為這個可以說是天籟之聲我們比如說駐維也納劉璇勇大使他不只在維也納街頭被邀請指揮樂團他最近俠館的克洛埃西亞還有另外一個"},{"start":599.127,"end":617.212,"text":"那個國家斯洛維尼亞其實我們的演出還有很多的活動我意思是說台灣現在不只是所謂價值外交是加值外交就跟台灣來往我們怎麼跟他對應之後會增加附加價值"},{"start":618.112,"end":620.993,"text":"那對他那個國家來講我想他們會感受到台灣的就是說我們講說良善的力量啦可以促進彼此的成長跟提升所以台灣真的是很豐富但是巧夫也是難為無名之炊所以還是要有一點預算那我們是期待能夠恢復"},{"start":641.761,"end":669.378,"text":"到將近20年前的那個數字因為我們的GDP還有我們的中央總預算成長這麼多可是我們外交部的預算都都在300億而已這一點在我會一個一個去拜訪我們外交國防委員會我們的委員跟大家詳細說而且大家委員想推動的國會外交也是總和外交一部分好像剛剛黃人委員他去做原住民外交的時候那個簡直是我們自己外交部就"},{"start":670.279,"end":690.223,"text":"我們就省掉這條預算,那當然整合大家的力量,步步都是外交部嘛,人人都是外交部部長講得很心酸啦,但本席為什麼會特別提出來是因為像這種別人走進來台灣,或是台灣的藝術家,或者是文化走出去其實這個宣傳跟行銷也都是展現台灣,而且讓台灣的職人可以被世界看到"},{"start":690.583,"end":704.131,"text":"那像這樣的預算絕對不是用在部長您身上或者是我們其實在場的這些外交部的同仁身上其實更多的是用在我們的國人身上我也覺得這個部分其實是應該要透過我們的質詢讓全國民眾看到好 謝謝"},{"start":707.519,"end":722.435,"text":"誠摯邀請委員們能夠去出席在布拉格跟巴黎的故宮百見文物展我覺得國會如果在黃人委員或是召委帶領之下能夠一起到全境歐洲台灣文化年謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":270,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早。我想今天大家都滿關注伊朗跟以色列的狀況，前面很多委員問過的部分，我就不再重新提起。我比較關注的是，事實上，在以色列跟伊朗衝突升級之前，在網路上許多年輕朋友關心的是有關於度假打工這個議題，因為這個時間點上面真的是有點巧合，就是在2023年5月3號，臺灣其實就跟以色列簽署了臺以度假打工計畫協定，我知道很多年輕朋友對於度假打工是非常希望前往的，比如說在我的辦公室裡面就有好幾位同仁，過去曾經到澳洲度假打工，這些經驗對他們來講都非常的重要。","但是我們外交部是到2025年6月1號，也就是這個月才開始受理，可是當時在以色列這邊已經呈現黃色的燈號了，當然我們知道6月13號以色列攻擊伊朗之後，外交部就把旅遊警戒變成橙燈跟紅燈，也暫停了臺以度假打工計畫，到目前為止，因為時間上非常的短，所以目前有人提出申請嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：應該還沒有，因為我們只是公布，就是可以來登記，但我們並沒有審查，也沒有在執行。","我跟委員提一下為什麼外交是很微妙，我們都知道，現在以色列認為伊朗背後有中國的支持，所以我們跟以色列的關係是有很大的空間，所以怎麼樣在國際規範之下，能夠跟以色列加強關係，我們當然會因應情勢做調整，不會讓我們國人置於險境。其實以色列還是有分區，比如在北境或在加薩附近，當然是四級的紅色警戒，可是其他的地方，其實他們長年處於這種可能的威脅之下，他們也是在過正常生活，所以我們怎麼樣不會過度反應，但是也能夠隨著情勢去做調整，就像從國外媒體的報導，很多人會以為臺灣很危險，我們也希望大家來臺灣之後發現沒有那麼危險，這個判斷是什麼？就是必須要有事實的依據。所以我們跟以色列透過度假打工，當很多國家包括澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國等等也都是如此的時候，我們怎麼樣跟國際同步，但是我們也必須要……"],["林委員楚茵：到目前我們知道簽了18個國家，這個題目為什麼本席會特別希望在質詢臺上講？也是因為我覺得就是讓部長跟外交部有一個好好說明的機會，就像您剛剛說的外交或者是國跟國之間的狀況瞬息萬變，但是目前因為我們已經停止受理，接下來外交部要怎麼樣來規劃？畢竟約簽了，我們也不可能片面地就終止，因為這個其實是兩個國家之間彼此在外交上面的協定，以目前的狀況停止了之後，外交部有沒有針對這個部分做研究跟了解，接下來，當面對類似的狀況的時候，又該如何來處理？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：這個都有標準作業程序，我們簽了這個，但是當然會依照國際情勢來做判斷，從受理到去辦理真正的度假打工是兩個階段，可是我們不能講說，因為這個危機，有時候反而是一個契機，就是雙邊關係的提升，可是我們一定把安全置於最重要的一個基礎。"],["林委員楚茵：好。因為畢竟部長也知道，當這樣的訊息6月1號在網路上曝光之後，我相信外交部在包括臉書或社群媒體上也收到許多的反饋，是說：哇！怎麼把我們的青年直接就送上了危險的第一線。所以在評估跟說明的部分，外交部也必須再更有敏感度一點，因為這個部分確實在時間點上面會讓外界覺得非常的敏感；至於什麼時候會再繼續重啟，我想這也要看兩個地區之間的戰況，或者是彼此最新的訊息。所以以目前為止來講，因為它當時是黃色燈號，我知道其實我們在外交上面有灰色、黃色、橙色跟紅色，灰色是提醒、黃色是注意，有沒有可能未來在這個部分提升到一旦是黃色燈號，我們不需要先公告？還是因為當時已經跟以色列說明要在2025年6月1號開始實施？"],["林部長佳龍：我們還是要依照國際規範來辦理，而且要跟國際同步，避免過猶不及，有關我們的旅遊警示，因為很多國家的情況不斷地在變化，我們都會做滾動式的調整，從外交上來講，其實以色列更能夠感受到跟臺灣一樣，我們都面對強敵的威脅，我們也在過正常的生活，這個地方通案性的通過度假打工，跟個案什麼時候要去實施，這個部分我們都會因應情勢來做一些評估跟判斷，所以有一些說什麼偷偷拿下來或者說為什麼這個時候去公布，不公布才奇怪，公布但是隨著情勢去調整，這個都有依據，比如那些旅遊的警示就是很好的依據。而且我剛剛講跟國際同步，這才不會讓人家覺得……有時候沒有反應也不好，但反應過度……"],["林委員楚茵：所以部長，您的意思是在有關於度假打工訊息公布的同時，其實此刻在國際上也是這樣認為，也就是說讓留學生或是這些實習生到以色列區其實是安全的，所以我們也沒有做得特別超過、我們也沒有特別地不敏感，其實就是跟國際同步的狀況。"],["林部長佳龍：對，跟國際同步，韓國、澳洲跟紐西蘭都持續辦理中。"],["林委員楚茵：好，了解。"],["林部長佳龍：但最近的情況也都在調整中。"],["林委員楚茵：好，了解。另外一個就是我們今天會解凍一個300萬臺灣對國際關懷救助及重建的業務費，因為我們知道其實臺灣現在面對的，就是外交部外交單位的宣傳費的部分是完全都被刪除了，本席當然也要特別肯定部長，現在是用一種文化外交或總合外交的方式讓臺灣走出去，尤其本席過去一直非常關注臺灣的藝文展演可不可以在國際上發光。這次部長到休士頓去推動Taiwan Tower，加深臺美的文化關係；也包括臺灣的藝術家AKA CHEN特別到美國的美東、美西都去做了展覽；4月份捷克也跟我們簽了國家文物保護法，所以故宮要到捷克去做展覽，其實我覺得這些都是非常好的。我不知道部長知不知道，接下來包括故宮跟美國大都會博物館合作的展覽也開始了，還有連續3年的環法自行車挑戰賽，也將會在南投舉行，我自己都認為這是非常好的文化外交，或符合你們推動的總合外交，在外交部所謂的國際宣傳費用被砍到零。甚至於負的狀況底下，本席要特別提出來質詢，但是也肯定部長跟外交部同仁透過文化跟其他部會的結合，可以讓臺灣持續被看見。"],["林部長佳龍：我也利用這個機會跟委員報告，現在外交部的預算占中央政府總預算已經不到1%，從2008年占1.79%的時候開始逐年遞減。現在全世界想跟臺灣來往的國家越來越多，所以我剛剛講的比如科技外交，我們的半導體、AI，這些是在美國、日本、歐洲發展；另外，在文化外交軟實力的部分，像故宮文物百選將在9月及11月陸續在捷克及法國展出，我們就把它發展成歐洲臺灣文化年，把這個品牌打出去，當然沒錢也有沒錢的作法，就都辦活動，其實宣傳效果透過活動當然……"],["林委員楚茵：就會有限。"],["林部長佳龍：但是如果能夠讓我們有宣傳的費用，我想可以宣傳給更多的人。在歐洲我們有26個館處都動起來，把他們年度要辦的活動整合成一個歐洲臺灣文化年，很精彩的，包括這一次去教廷的臺灣原民原聲合唱團，那真的是驚動了整個歐洲，可以說被嘆為是天籟之聲。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["林部長佳龍：比如說，駐維也納的劉玄詠大使，他不只在維也納街頭被邀請指揮樂團，另外還有克羅埃西亞以及斯洛維尼亞，其實我們除了演出還有很多的活動。我的意思是臺灣現在不只是價值外交，是加值外交，也就是跟臺灣來往，我們怎麼跟他對應之後會增加附加價值，對他的國家來講，我想他們會感受到所謂臺灣的良善力量，可以促進彼此的成長跟提升，所以臺灣真的是很豐富。但是巧婦也是難為無米之炊，所以還是要有點預算，我們是期待能夠恢復到將近20年前的那個數字，因為我們的GDP還有中央總預算成長這麼多，可是我們外交部的預算都在300億而已，這一點我會再一個一個去拜訪外交及國防委員會的委員做詳細說明，而且各位委員想推動的國會外交也是總合外交的一部分，像黃仁委員去做原住民外交，我們自己外交部就省掉這條預算，當然整合大家的力量，部部都是外交部，人人都是外交官。"],["林委員楚茵：部長講得很辛酸，但本席為什麼特別提出來，是因為像這種別人走進來臺灣，或臺灣的藝術家或文化走出去，其實這個宣傳跟行銷也都是展現臺灣，而且讓臺灣的職人可以被世界看到，像這樣的預算絕對不是用在部長您身上或者是在場的外交部同仁身上，其實更多的是用在我們國人身上，我也覺得這個部分應該要透過我們的質詢讓全國民眾看到，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：我是誠摯邀請委員們能夠出席在布拉格跟巴黎的故宮文物百選展，希望國會在黃仁委員或是現在召委帶領之下，能夠一起前進歐洲臺灣文化年。謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。","接下來由沈伯洋召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-20","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","馬文君","葉元之","王鴻薇","李彥秀","張啓楷","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等3案","agenda_id":"1146101_00001"}}},{"id":"162701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/19817250edeb8a73b45bc243acaa4b35c914d80f272b5bb4fe48e1f12328ce24f699acf6b854a81e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:56:16 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中國人有中華民國國籍嘛 變成新住民來 陸委會委員好請問一下 你的報告裡面說新住民新的單位 發展署 新立了啦叫你們沒有應用 都叫你們沒有管的 是這樣嗎"},{"start":62.646,"end":77.763,"text":"報告委員 陸委會的意思是說我們沒有業務跟人員要移撥但不是說這個新住民的照顧跟陸委會無關陸委會的那個報告不是這個意思業務沒有要移撥所以中國的新住民要找陸委會沒有找這個新的署"},{"start":84.339,"end":108.184,"text":"報告委員 因為陸委會負責是政策協調沒有啦 我這麼問你是好 海基委啦 陸委會 海基委中國的新住民 來到台灣之後有新住民身份 不用找這個書啊我們還是再找你們陸委會跟海基委對不對都是一起合作的啊不是一起合作啦 現在就是中國的新住民回到台積啊我們還是要提供協助啊"},{"start":110.402,"end":126.39,"text":"還是要提供協助市長找你們嗎我想是婚姻移民的部分是新住民身份依照基本法第二條規定的那我相信這個陸委會跟我們的話應該是合作分工啦你們討論過嗎"},{"start":128.518,"end":155.367,"text":"我召開小組的部分也有請陸委會來給我們一些意見還有分工了沒我們還在討論還沒定案當然啦因為我們因為陸委會報告裡面說業務沒有移撥剛剛陸委會講的部分是指那個就既有的業務哪一些是要移撥到新住民的是這個部分是純粹細項的業務好那它沒有移撥那你們的業務你們這個新的這個屬的業務有跟中國新住民有關的嗎"},{"start":158.91,"end":179.147,"text":"應該是身份別啦身份別如果他是大陸的配偶是婚姻移民的部分那當然跟新住民就有關了好第二我請問一下考選部或權敘部啦來有雙重國籍的人可不可以當中華民國的公務員"},{"start":180.762,"end":193.897,"text":"法委員依照公務人考試法要取得戶籍有身份才能參加公務人考試好所以我們這個新的署的署長、副署長、主任、秘書可不可以是中國人在上面回答"},{"start":201.604,"end":221.836,"text":"依據公園任用法的規定就是不能有雙重國籍那至於那個兩岸條例有規定說就是如果是大陸地區人民的話那兩岸條例有相關規範規定是什麼啦現在就有一個中國人"},{"start":224.063,"end":233.309,"text":"中國人婚姻移民來台灣啊,是中華民國的國籍啦他是中國人啦,是中華民國的國籍他可不可以當署長、副署長、主任秘書啦這個是在兩岸條例裡面的規範所以兩岸條例因為這是屬於陸委會的權責來,陸委會"},{"start":249.98,"end":272.134,"text":"報告委員 依照兩岸條例第21條的規定那大陸人如果取得台灣的身份必須涉及滿10年才可以擔任公教人員所以他前提是要拿到身份證之後還要滿10年那他要當署長 要不要出事他要放棄中華人民共和國的戶籍那依照工人任用法嗎"},{"start":273.652,"end":282.097,"text":"依照任用法的規定就是說如果當事人他沒有辦法放棄國籍不可規則於他的話 雖然不只是在中國大陸啦現在中國人很聰明啦 不會國籍 戶籍 我在說戶籍出事要放棄戶籍證明 他可以來做我們這個署的署長"},{"start":294.125,"end":320.565,"text":"包委員依照兩岸條例他一定要放棄大陸的戶籍在拿到台灣身份證之後三個月內他一定要返回大陸取得註銷戶籍的證明資料給移民署好 現在最近不是在查這個什麼戶籍放棄的嗎對 現在正在查好 他就搞不出來他說年代久遠啊交不出來的那交不出來你們有變通方法嘛 對不對對 我們有一些這變通了他可以當署長或署長主任秘書嗎包委員"},{"start":322.816,"end":349.489,"text":"如果是他有特殊的狀況的時候,我們有說他可以拒絕或延後但是他本身如果還是拒絕,他還是拒有他會做署長或署長主任秘書嗎?如果是屬於大陸地區人民的部分,這還是有依照兩岸條例的規定辦理不是啊,你不是全序部的嗎?"},{"start":351.33,"end":370.326,"text":"我們主管公人任用法,那至於大陸地區人民因為他比較特殊,所以他的相關規範是在兩岸條例裡面去規範我正在問,你題目就這樣不是啊,你全序部,他要來救我們署長、副署長、主任秘書,把三名送到全序部去,你總是要準還是不準啊"},{"start":372.637,"end":389.291,"text":"就是我們會就是針對兩岸條例規範的相關內容如果有疑義的話我們還是會把你那雞湯鴨醬這地方這麼清楚中外民國全巿部會派來的人回答不出來中國人可以做我們的署長 副署長 主席秘書全巿部說不出來你敢不想哭啊你敢不想哭"},{"start":400.526,"end":407.07,"text":"你到底是在怕什麼啦,可以就可以,不可以就不可以啊這公分三個你到哪裡去,你自己去問陸委會他如果說還是屬於大陸地區人民的話,他是不能擔任公務人員好,來,接下來這一個考選部"},{"start":423.035,"end":428.518,"text":"這個委員有人提案,說醫療新住民的什麼國家考試,由這個新的單位來負責,你的看法呢?我們中華民國有任何的新分,科技交給部會去科技的嗎?"},{"start":442.128,"end":470.701,"text":"包委員這部分確實跟考試院的限定職長還有考選部的組織的權責有漢格之處那我進一步說明一下這是憲法規定的啦是是是因為考試考試為考試院長理的事項嘛那考試院為了辦理所謂的全國公務人員考試跟專門接技術人員考試的考選行政所以設有考選部那考選部依照我們的組織法的事項你是有意的啦對 是"},{"start":471.601,"end":496.005,"text":"你們是唯一的嘛 是是是所以這條你們要堅持啊有 我們有提出書面意見你做美當說交通部的要考什麼都叫交通部自己去考取外交部的都叫外交部來你考取中外民國的國家要考取的就是考選部附近嘛考試院的考選部附近嘛我們為了某一個新聞說那個新聞的考取國家考試要做中外民國公務人員那個單位自己考取"},{"start":499.446,"end":514.085,"text":"把地震用 開一條門之下這不通這不通 這你們要堅持有 我們有提書面報告好 謝謝那王委員 需不需要他們用書面回覆你剛剛那個問題不用啦 不用齁"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時56分）好，謝謝主席，我們請內政部次長，還有考選部、銓敘部跟陸委會。"],["主席：麻煩次長、考選部、銓敘部、陸委會代表上台。"],["王委員義川：好，次長，你是新住民發展署籌備的負責人。"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["王委員義川：不管叫什麼職稱，我們在新住民定義裡頭把中國人也納入新住民嘛！"],["吳次長堂安：是。"],["王委員義川：就是中國人有中華民國國籍也變新住民，來，陸委會。"],["周處長鳴瑞：委員好。"],["王委員義川：請問一下，你們的報告裡面說新住民新單位發展署如果成立，對你們沒有影響，都跟你們沒關係，是這樣嗎？"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，陸委會的意思是說我們沒有業務跟人員要移撥，但不是說新住民的照顧跟陸委會無關，陸委會的報告不是這個意思。"],["王委員義川：業務沒有要移撥？"],["周處長鳴瑞：對，我們的業務……"],["王委員義川：所以中國的新住民以後找陸委會？"],["周處長鳴瑞：我們還是要……"],["王委員義川：沒有找新的署？"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，因為陸委會負責的是政策協調。"],["王委員義川：沒有啦！我現在問你，海基會啦！陸委會、海基會，中國的新住民來到臺灣之後，有新住民身分，不用找這個署，都是找你們陸委會跟海基會，對不對？"],["周處長鳴瑞：都是一起合作的啊！"],["王委員義川：現在就是中國的新住民遇到事情了。"],["周處長鳴瑞：我們還是要提供協助。"],["王委員義川：還是要提供協助？"],["周處長鳴瑞：是。"],["王委員義川：次長，那找你們嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：我想依照基本法第二條規定，婚姻移民的部分是新住民身分，我相信陸委會跟我們應該是合作分工啦！"],["王委員義川：你們討論過嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：我召開小組的部分也有請陸委會給我們一些意見。"],["王委員義川：有分工了沒？"],["吳次長堂安：我們還在討論。"],["王委員義川：還沒定案？"],["吳次長堂安：當然啦，因為我們現在……"],["王委員義川：因為陸委會報告裡面寫說業務沒有移撥吔？"],["吳次長堂安：剛剛陸委會講的是指既有業務哪一些是要移撥到新住民的，是這個部分，是純粹細項的業務移撥。"],["王委員義川：好，它沒有移撥，你們這個新的署的業務有跟中國新住民有關的嗎？它的業務沒有移撥嘛！它也繼續做它的嘛！"],["吳次長堂安：應該是身分別啦！身分別如果他是婚姻移民的部分，那當然就跟新住民有關了。"],["王委員義川：好。第二，我請問一下考選部或銓敘部。"],["鄭副司長育明：考選部，委員好。"],["王委員義川：有雙重國籍的人可不可以當中華民國的公務員？"],["鄭副司長育明：報告委員，依照公務人員考試法，要取得戶籍、有身分才能參加公務員考試。"],["王委員義川：好，所以這個新的署的署長、副署長、主任秘書可不可以是中國人，這誰要回答？"],["張專門委員菀玲：依據公務人員任用法的規定，不能有雙重國籍。至於兩岸條例有規定，如果是大陸地區人民的話，兩岸條例有相關規範。"],["王委員義川：規定是什麼啦？現在就有一個中國人啦！中國人婚姻移民來臺灣取得中華民國國籍，他是中國人啦！取得中華民國國籍後，可不可以當署長、副署長、主任秘書？"],["張專門委員菀玲：這個是在兩岸條例裡面的規範，兩岸條例是屬於陸委會的權責。"],["王委員義川：陸委會。"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，依照兩岸條例第二十一條的規定，大陸人如果取得臺灣的身分，必須設籍滿10年才可以擔任公教人員，所以前提是要拿到身分證之後還要滿10年。"],["王委員義川：他要當署長，要不要出示他放棄中華人民共和國的戶籍？"],["周處長鳴瑞：依照公務人員任用法的規定，如果當事人沒有辦法放棄國籍，不可歸責於他的話，不只是在中國大陸……"],["王委員義川：現在中國人很聰明啦！搞那些什麼國籍戶籍的，我就說是戶籍，出示他放棄戶籍證明……"],["周處長鳴瑞：這個一定要。"],["王委員義川：他可以來當我們這個署的署長嗎？"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，依照兩岸條例，他一定要放棄大陸的戶籍，在拿到臺灣身分證之後3個月內，一定要返回大陸，取得註銷戶籍的證明資料給移民署，這一定要做。"],["王委員義川：最近不是在查什麼戶籍放棄的，對不對？"],["周處長鳴瑞：對，現在正在查。"],["王委員義川：他就交不出來，他說年代久遠。"],["周處長鳴瑞：交不出來的……"],["王委員義川：交不出來的，你們有變通方法，對不對？"],["周處長鳴瑞：對，我們有一些……"],["王委員義川：變通之後，他可以當署長、副署長、主任秘書嗎？"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，如果他是有特殊的狀況，可以拒結或延後，但他本身如果還是具有……"],["王委員義川：銓敘部，這可以嗎？他可以當署長、副署長、主任秘書嗎？"],["張專門委員菀玲：如果是屬於大陸地區人民的部分，這還是依照兩岸條例的規定辦理。"],["王委員義川：你不是銓敘部的嗎？"],["張專門委員菀玲：我們主管是公務人員任用法，至於大陸地區人民因為比較特殊，所以相關的規範是在兩岸條例裡。"],["王委員義川：我現在問你的題目就是這樣！他來就任署長、副署長、主任秘書，把文件送到銓敘部去，你們總是要核准或不核准啊！"],["張專門委員菀玲：針對兩岸條例規範的相關內容，如果有疑義的話，我們還是會……"],["王委員義川：這在雞同鴨講！題目這麼清楚，中華民國銓敘部派來的人回答不出來！中國人可以當我們的署長、副署長、主任秘書，銓敘部說不出來，你們會不會太誇張了！你們會不會太誇張了！你們到底在怕什麼？可以就可以，不行就不行，這公文送到你們桌上，你們還要去問陸委會？"],["張專門委員菀玲：他如果還是屬於大陸地區人民的話，是不能擔任公務人員。"],["王委員義川：接下來請考選部。有委員提案說，以後新住民的國家考試由新的單位來負責，你的看法如何？我們中華民國有為了任何身分而把考試交給部會辦理的嗎？"],["鄭副司長育明：報告委員，這部分確實跟考試院的憲定職掌還有考選部的組織、權責有扞格之處。我進一步說明……"],["王委員義川：這是憲法的規定的。"],["鄭副司長育明：是。因為考試為考試院掌理的事項，考試院為了辦理全國公務人員考試跟專門職業及技術人員考試的考選行政，所以設有考選部，考選部依照組織法的事項……"],["王委員義川：你是唯一的，所以這條你們要堅持。"],["鄭副司長育明：是，我們有提出書面意見。"],["王委員義川：你總不能說，交通部的要考什麼，以後都要交通部自己辦考試，外交部的都要外交部辦考試。中華民國的國家考試就是考選部負責，由考試院的考選部負責，哪有為了某一個身分要當中華民國公務人員的國家考試，由那個單位自己辦考試，自己任用，開一條門在那邊，這是不可行的，這部分你們要堅持。"],["鄭副司長育明：我們有提書面報告。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["主席：王委員，需不需要他們用書面回復你剛剛的問題？"],["王委員義川：不用。"],["主席：因為剛剛王委員的問題真的非常清楚，我都想要站起來幫你回答了，結果你一直回答不出來。你們是不是要先弄清楚，因為他剛剛的問題非常的明確，我不懂為什麼答不出來？"],["黃委員捷：主席，那你可以來幫忙解答。"],["主席：沒有，這個還是由行政機關來說明，我是說剛剛王委員的問題真的非常明確，因為這在法規上面都有，而且應該是用兩岸條例，跟國籍法也無關。","下一位請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","麥玉珍","羅美玲","張智倫","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","王義川","黃捷","張宏陸","王美惠","陳培瑜","沈發惠","吳思瑤","李柏毅","羅智強","許宇甄","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","莊瑞雄","葉元之","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","吳琪銘"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 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有請兩位部長 莊部長跟邱部長莊部長跟邱部長請"},{"start":12.947,"end":25.133,"text":"莊部長我先讓你看一下照片這張照片是放在海關裡頭滿坑滿谷的這一個加熱菸你自己有沒有去看過總共在海關沒收的這一個加熱菸總共有34萬條之多依照5月的統計已經有442萬.54萬包了"},{"start":35.517,"end":57.439,"text":"這滿山滿谷的情況底下還有一部分是已經交給地方政府喔有14萬喔放在海關裡頭是20萬喔過期的也銷毀了11萬條喔你看看這麼多的情況底下結果呢事情已經變成是財政部的事情了剛剛有委員說啊如果半年內沒有通過的話菸酒公司的董事長要下台"},{"start":57.739,"end":76.898,"text":"但是沒有讓他通過的是你右邊那一位啊是你左邊那一位邱部長啊這魏吳部可以主導這個菸酒公司董事長下台這真是笑話另外一個部分這還有什麼後遺症連日本啊都質疑台灣的法規啊會阻礙日客來台啊就因為江苑院的審查延期"},{"start":78.117,"end":99.873,"text":"因為三月份的時候衛福部還說連持有都要罰就像毒品一樣到底家庭合不合法你是誘人犯罪嗎政府誘人犯罪嗎違反信賴保護原則嗎基本的法律素養會沒有嗎還是帶墮審查全部都卡在衛福部我們心頭非常清楚"},{"start":101.052,"end":115.583,"text":"部長你也應該希望多一點稅收的來源吧剛剛賴昭偉就說稅差損就差了100億嘛長照3.0需不需要稅收的來源需不需要邱部長有需要嗎"},{"start":118.459,"end":146.117,"text":"3.0欸一個月過去一個月補助一萬接下來一個月要補助一萬五所需要的稅金來源要更多結果你這個稅差損就差了一百億部長我們的這個審查標準有其他的比其他的國家還原嗎還是因為人為的因素上一屆的委員剛卸任的這屆委員對外就放出風聲在這一屆裡頭不可能通過而通過了這一屆的委員當中呢到現在還沒有開會審查"},{"start":147.978,"end":175.854,"text":"如果說衛福部有這麼大的意見當初院版就不應該提出就不應該讓他通過不是嗎部長院版裡面當然就是有就是有設立就是說三讀的時候當然那個法案就有審查的辦法那這個辦法裡面也列出了標準那這兩任期那個時候也聘請了委員任期是兩年嘛那現在到期了我們現在也換了新的委員兩年 年一線都沒有通過"},{"start":177.555,"end":189.527,"text":"審查標準有別人家演嗎你就比較其他國家就好了嘛你不要制定一個自己的標準嘛很多國家都已經合法化那個要要去抄也很容易抄好不好有需要搞成這麼久嗎"},{"start":192.998,"end":221.79,"text":"跟委員報告目前全球只有兩個國家在審查一個是美國一個是台灣其他的國家是沒有審查直接合併就可以上市對一般的那沒有審查也會有一個標準嘛那我們標準為什麼這麼嚴我們審查為什麼這麼嚴我們為什麼拖了兩年多為什麼十家沒有一個通過開了五十幾次會都沒有通過為什麼我們就是依據美國FDA的一個上市前審查的一個標準來做相關的審查作業所以說我們的標準是依照美國是"},{"start":222.29,"end":237.763,"text":"完全一樣口味都相同幾乎都相同幾乎都相同那我們拿回來的這些加熱煙有沒有美國煙目前在美國也還沒有上市那目前這些煙是從哪邊來他們在全球有各地方不同的"},{"start":239.809,"end":262.743,"text":"不同的國家不同的國家那我們既然已經合法化了我們難道不能一定要比照美國的標準是不是你現在意思是這樣嗎我們按照那個規定跟流程還有相關業者需要準備的相關的一些資料來做審查這業者會不清楚嗎業者都清楚我們也說過很多次的說明會說過很多次的說明會如果是標準的問題那你就把標準公布出來嘛對啊"},{"start":264.099,"end":292.142,"text":"那你就把標準給我們委員會到底問題出在哪裡到底是行政怠惰還是標準過嚴還是業者不從我們把這整個過程只要依法能夠公告的我們一定我們就來報告委員會就從剛剛那個委員趕快啦那五十幾次會議會議紀錄給我們啊讓我們清楚知道到底什麼原因嘛可以嗎好的我們會把那個依法可以公告送給大家該解決的問題部長你還是要解決啦拖了不是辦法啦你看海關放了三十四萬條在這邊啊"},{"start":295.184,"end":306.913,"text":"對基如山啦其實工作同仁都是依法在辦依法依規定可以搞了兩年多好 接下來我問一下那個莊部長莊部長我讓你看一下數字"},{"start":313.084,"end":332.455,"text":"這個中國啤酒的問題經濟部在4月28號的時候就已經對中國啤酒的這個傾銷造成台灣產業已經造成傷害了根據最新的統計中國啤酒的市佔率在今年的第一季已經來到36%你知道台啤目前的市佔率有多少嗎"},{"start":333.766,"end":359.556,"text":"我知道台啤的市占率現在在下降當中原來都是超過五成以上的現在也在下降對 目前一直下降當中已經下降到四成點九一跟中國進來的36相差不遠比較於去年這一個還當了6%已經接近死亡交叉了恐怕在一年之內就會被中國啤酒給超越了"},{"start":360.736,"end":389.506,"text":"在這種情況底下我們現在要可能會祭出臨時反請銷稅嘛對不對要70天之內對不對對 是的我們這個部分因為經濟部已經在剛剛如同委員說在4月30完成初步的產業損害調查那麼70天以內我們要完成所謂的請銷初步調查而且我們還會送關稅稅率審議委員會小組所以最晚我們在7月9號之前就會去公告"},{"start":390.386,"end":400.453,"text":"7月9號之前就會公布公告初步的一個調查結果7月9號之前會公布是否會在課徵臨時稅臨時課徵反省銷稅是的是7月9號之前臨時反省銷稅7月9號之前它裡頭有一個條款說有必要的時候延後30天應該不會延後了吧"},{"start":409.399,"end":421.405,"text":"呃這個部分我們的關務署一直非常積極而且積極的在進行當中然後會所以不會延後一起做一起依照這個期限來做不會再延後不會再延後好不會再延後70天內7月9號好那你知道喔"},{"start":425.187,"end":447.301,"text":"現階段他們在這個比較去年五月多進來59% 接近六成那為什麼會多進來呢你去看右邊這一張表格價格調漲通知 請提前囤貨看到沒有雪山 百威 Corona Bar 等等而且是從七月一號開始他們要全面調漲價格請把握補貨機會搶購現價庫存看到沒有 這叫囤貨"},{"start":455.966,"end":481.893,"text":"進口越多 囤貨越多對台灣的這個啤酒產業者傷害越大我就要問啊這個科增這個依照平衡稅及反請銷稅科增實施辦法第25條之一第二項第二款科增臨時反請銷稅可以追溯既往至90天前這樣的行為你認為是不是應該追溯 部長"},{"start":482.577,"end":504.077,"text":"有這樣的規定 那可以由業者來提出申請業者又要申訴一次 你才決定要不要柯真這很明顯是囤貨的行為啊這很明顯啊 就是在對抗你的反傾銷的行為啊你還要問業者 你主管機關沒有判斷能力嗎"},{"start":505.759,"end":510.083,"text":"我們回溯課程法律上是有規定要件我們是從展開調查的前三個月跟後三個月來比較他有沒有因為我們展開調查大量的囤積"},{"start":528.382,"end":544.58,"text":"數字上會說話數字我們會再調查很明顯啊是 那也跟委員報告抓到了基本上他要申請要課反警交稅的時候同時要跟我們申請說他要不要臨時課徵那你覺得這有沒有明顯這個行為有明顯 你自己看嘛"},{"start":546.104,"end":557.886,"text":"從委員的這個圖表數字來看我們要看他展開調查之前三個月跟後三個月的基期的一個變化這我們回去會看數據你們好好調查一下 如果必要時應該催售對不對 署長"},{"start":562.216,"end":576.986,"text":"我們還是要看它是不是符合要件我們還是要看它有沒有符合回收要件來 部長我再跟你講一個那個假嘴有慣犯真的是慣不怕今天就談菸酒的問題你看有一個零性慣犯"},{"start":577.887,"end":602.328,"text":"他在2016年施設地下這一個工廠製造假酒被判刑五年 還是因為火災喔從2022到2027 結果呢緩刑時間還沒到 2021又賣假酒因為組織犯罪才被判刑兩年今年 今年又因為犯罪集團的顧問繼續賣假酒又被抓到了總共三次"},{"start":604.93,"end":625.059,"text":"違反了什麼 違反了這個組織犯罪法 它是因為組織犯罪而被犯罪的喔還有包括這個商標法喔 還有其他的文書罪喔那我就要問啊 這個是不是啊 我們的菸酒管理法當中呢 太弱或者是我們食品安全衛生法"},{"start":625.859,"end":649.377,"text":"管理法太鬆兩位部長兩位部長這個假酒會害死人啊連酒瓶一瓶 連酒瓶喔都可以賣錢還到處收購因為它被扣留了兩萬瓶空瓶子兩位部長你們是沒有在喝酒啦我相信你們身體都非常的健康啦但是問題呢 國人也要健康啦"},{"start":650.707,"end":663.835,"text":"怎麼處理屢犯屢抓再屢犯兩位部長 莊部長要先回答還是邱部長先回答我想這個不問問的話"},{"start":669.931,"end":697.497,"text":"應該是很不應該有這樣的情況那因為酒不算食品但是財務財政部在做相關的觀看所以說跟你都沒有關係那財政部來回答來財政部要怎麼處理我想這個部分對國民的健康非常重要但是因為現在的菸酒管理法裡面原來對於就是說有刑罰但這個部分早我已經站起來了我受顯膽的要求那個法該檢討的檢討一個月給本席一份報告"},{"start":698.357,"end":707.926,"text":"是不是要專案欺查齁你也是做一個考量啦衡量一下也給本席一個報告好不好專案普遍的現象是不可以啦好不好OK 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時54分）謝謝主席，有請莊部長跟邱部長兩位部長。"],["主席：莊部長跟邱部長請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：莊部長，我先讓你看一下照片，這張照片是放在海關裡頭滿坑滿谷的加熱菸，你自己有沒有去看過？在海關沒收的加熱菸總共有34萬條之多，依照到5月的統計，已經有442.54萬包了，有14萬條已經交給地方政府了，有20萬條堆放在海關裡頭，就是這樣滿坑滿谷的情況，在之前已經過期而銷毀的也有11萬條，你看看現在堆了這麼多，結果變成是財政部的事情了。剛剛有委員說如果半年內沒有通過的話，菸酒公司的董事長要下臺，但是沒有讓它通過的是在你左邊的那一位邱部長啊！結果變成衛福部可以主導讓菸酒公司的董事長下臺，這真的是笑話啊！","另外，這還有什麼後遺症？連日本都質疑臺灣的法規會阻礙日客來臺，就是因為加熱菸的審查延期，因為在3月份的時候衛福部還說連持有都要罰，就像毒品一樣。到底加熱菸合不合法？政府是誘人犯罪嗎？違反信賴保護原則嗎？基本的法律素養都沒有嗎？還是怠惰沒有審查所以全部都卡在衛福部？我們心裡頭非常清楚。","部長，你應該也希望多一點稅收的來源吧！剛剛賴召委說稅損就差了100億，長照3.0需不需要稅收的來源？邱部長，有需要嗎？長照3.0欸！過去是1個月補助1萬，接下來1個月要補助1萬5，所需要的稅金來源要更多，結果你這個稅損就差了100億。","部長，我們的這個審查標準有比其他的國家還嚴嗎？還是因為人為的因素？上一屆剛卸任的委員就對外放出風聲，說在他們這一屆裡頭不可能通過，而這一屆委員到現在還沒有開會審查，部長，如果衛福部有這麼大的意見，當初就不應該提出院版，就不應該讓它通過，不是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：在院版三讀的時候，當然那個法案就有審查的辦法，在這個辦法裡面也有列出標準，那個時候也聘請了委員，任期是2年，現在到期了，我們現在也換了新的委員。"],["郭委員國文：在這2年連1件都沒有通過，審查的標準有比人家嚴嗎？你和其他國家比較就好了，你不要制定一個自己的標準嘛！很多國家都已經合法化，要去抄也很容易抄，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：吳署長，有沒有其他國家的審查……"],["郭委員國文：有需要搞成這麼久嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，目前全球只有兩個國家在審查，一個是美國、一個是臺灣，其他的國家是沒有審查，直接核備就可以上市，一般的……"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有審查也會有一個標準，我們的標準為什麼這麼嚴？我們的審查為什麼這麼嚴？為什麼拖了兩年多？為什麼10家沒有1家通過？開了五十幾次會都沒有通過，為什麼？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們是依據美國FDA上市前審查的標準來做相關的審查作業。"],["郭委員國文：所以我們的標準是依照美國？"],["吳署長昭軍：是。"],["郭委員國文：完全一樣，口味都相同？"],["吳署長昭軍：幾乎都相同。"],["郭委員國文：幾乎都相同，我們拿回來的這些加熱菸有沒有美國菸？"],["吳署長昭軍：目前在美國也還沒有上市。"],["郭委員國文：目前這些菸是從哪邊來？"],["吳署長昭軍：在全球有各地方不同的。"],["郭委員國文：不同的？"],["吳署長昭軍：不同的國家。"],["郭委員國文：我們既然已經合法化了，難道一定要比照美國的標準，是不是？你現在的意思是這樣嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們按照那個規定跟流程，還有業者需要準備的相關資料來做審查。"],["郭委員國文：這些業者會不清楚嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：業者都清楚，我們做過很多次的說明會，要求它補件……"],["郭委員國文：如果是標準的問題，那你就把標準公布出來，你就把標準提供給我們委員會，到底問題出在哪裡？到底是行政怠惰，還是標準過嚴，還是業者不從？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這整個過程只要依法能夠公告的，我們就來報告委員會。"],["郭委員國文：就如同剛剛賴委員要求的一樣，把五十幾次的會議紀錄給我們，讓我們清楚知道到底什麼原因，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們會把依法可以公告的提供給大家。"],["郭委員國文：部長，應該解決的問題，你還是要解決，拖著不是辦法。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會儘速來解決。"],["郭委員國文：你看海關放了34萬條在這邊堆積如山。"],["邱部長泰源：其實工作同仁都是依法、依規定在處理。"],["郭委員國文：可以搞了兩年多！","接下來，我問一下莊部長，莊部長，我讓你看一下數據，關於中國啤酒的問題，經濟部在4月28日的時候就已經宣告中國啤酒傾銷對臺灣產業造成傷害，根據最新統計，中國啤酒市占率在今年第一季已經來到36%，你知道臺啤目前的市占率有多少嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道，臺啤的市占率現在在下降當中，原來都是超過五成以上，現在也在下降。"],["郭委員國文：對，目前一直下降當中，已經下降到40.91%，跟中國進來的36%相差不遠，與去年比較還down了6%，已經接近死亡交叉了，恐怕在一年之內就會被中國啤酒給超越了。在這種情況底下，我們現在可能會祭出臨時反傾銷稅，在70天之內，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，這個部分就如同剛剛委員講的，經濟部已經在4月30日完成初步的產業損害調查，70天以內我們要完成所謂的傾銷初步調查，而且我們還會送關稅稅率審議委員會小組，所以最晚我們在7月9日之前就會公告。"],["郭委員國文：7月9日之前？"],["莊部長翠雲：7月9日之前就會公告初步的調查結果。"],["郭委員國文：7月9日之前會公布是否課徵臨時反傾銷稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，7月9日之前。"],["郭委員國文：裡面有一個條款是有必要的時候得延後30天，應該不會延後了吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們的關務署一直非常積極地在進行當中。"],["郭委員國文：所以不會延後？"],["莊部長翠雲：會依照這個期限來做，不會再延期。"],["郭委員國文：不會再延後，好，70天內、7月9日。現階段與去年5月比較進口量多59%，接近六成，為什麼會多進口？你看右邊這一張圖片，有沒有看到價格調漲通知，請提前囤貨，雪山、百威、可樂娜、Bar等等，而且是從7月1日開始要全面調漲價格，請把握補貨機會，搶購現價庫存，看到沒有？這叫囤貨！進口越多、囤貨越多對臺灣的啤酒產業傷害越大，請問依照平衡稅及反傾銷稅課徵實施辦法第二十五條之一第二項第二款規定，課徵臨時反傾銷稅可以追溯既往至90天前，部長，你認為這樣的行為是不是應該追溯？"],["莊部長翠雲：有這樣的規定，可以由業者提出申請。"],["郭委員國文：業者又要申訴一次，你才決定要不要課徵，這很明顯是囤貨行為，這很明顯就是在對抗你的反傾銷行為，你還要問業者，主管機關沒有判斷能力嗎？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是不是請署長來做回應？"],["郭委員國文：好，請彭署長，30秒。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，回溯課徵在法律上有規定要件，我們是從展開調查的前三個月與後三個月來比較，他有沒有因為我們展開調查大量的囤積。"],["郭委員國文：那就是啦！數字會說話。"],["彭署長英偉：數字我們會再調查。"],["郭委員國文：很明顯啊！抓到了！"],["彭署長英偉：也跟委員報告，基本上，他申請要課反傾銷稅的時候，同時要跟我們申請他要不要臨時課徵，也要跟我們申請……"],["郭委員國文：你覺得這個行為有沒有很明顯？你自己看嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：從委員的這個圖表數字來看，我們要看他展開調查之前三個月與後三個月的基期變化，我們回去會看數據。"],["郭委員國文：你們要好好調查一下，如果必要時應該追溯，對不對？署長，你連這個都不敢講？"],["彭署長英偉：我們還是要看他有沒有符合回溯要件。"],["郭委員國文：署長，你下去吧！","部長，我再跟你講一個問題，假酒慣犯真的是關不怕，今天我要談菸酒的問題，有一個林姓慣犯在2016年的時候私設地下工廠製造假酒，因為工廠發生火災被發現，遭判緩刑5年，從2022年到2027年。結果緩刑時間還沒到，2021年又被抓到賣假酒，而且因為組織犯罪才被判刑兩年；今年又再度擔任犯罪集團顧問，繼續賣假酒被抓到，總共3次違反組織犯罪，他是因為組織犯罪防制條例被抓，包括商標法還有其他的文書罪。我就要問是不是我們的菸酒管理法太弱，或者是我們的食品安全衛生管理法太鬆？兩位部長，假酒會害死人，連酒瓶都可以賣錢，還到處收購，因為他被扣留了兩萬瓶空瓶子。兩位部長，你們是沒有在喝酒，我相信你們身體都非常的健康，但是問題是國人也要健康，這怎麼處理？屢犯、屢抓、再屢犯，莊部長要先回答，還是邱部長先回答？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個部分應該是很不應該有這樣的情況，因為酒不算食品，是財政部在做相關的管理。"],["郭委員國文：所以跟你都沒有關係，財政部來回答。財政部，這要怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分對國民的健康非常重要，但是因為現在菸酒管理法裡面，原來是有刑罰，但是這個部分目前並沒有刑罰。"],["郭委員國文：召委已經站起來了，我提出簡短的要求，法該檢討的檢討，一個月給本席一份報告，是不是要專案稽查，你也去做一個考量，衡量一下，也給本席一個報告，好不好？這樣普遍的現象是不可以的，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員的質詢。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 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海巡署的謝副署長兩位長官早因為媒體揭露了說你這個查緝私淵的祭司獎金"},{"start":23.834,"end":52.904,"text":"每一年八千萬幾乎資訊率百分之百全部領光了結果呢 剛才我也有提到啊結果就發現說已經被逮到了彰化那個地方我們的棄屍就是海巡署底下的這個人 然後你跟這個等於啊找他的職業走私人頭有勾串把這個錢都領光光這個事情你們現在到底媒體這樣揭露沒看到你們的反應你們到底查得怎麼樣"},{"start":57.093,"end":66.479,"text":"有沒有這回事現在是偵查中偵查中已經好幾天了咧3月11號搜索調查開始之後我們依照規定6月11號跟他現在機下還有一位立刻免職"},{"start":76.277,"end":98.642,"text":"那另外兩位呢因為現在偵查中我們會列為年終考劇淘汰的對象所以涉入的有三位是不是有三位一位羈押兩位交保交保那為了你怎麼逢他們這個東西歷史所在啊各位幫我們現在我去年就聽過規定所有在做檢舉筆錄的時候隊長親自在場"},{"start":100.984,"end":128.359,"text":"第二個核發獎金依照規定核發獎金下來之後要頒發的時候要由政風人員在現場不僅要保護他的身份而且要確認檢舉的真實性這個紀司員你們的官員的你這個獎金不是什麼機密吧不是機密吧我們所有的那個破壞獎金就是那個查緝獎金最多一個人如果沒有有檢舉的人只有3萬5"},{"start":129.69,"end":146.959,"text":"沒有檢舉人的話最多也只有7萬7萬很多耶7萬不是只有很多耶我希望這個事情這個很丟臉海巡署很丟臉我覺得要徹底的把它怎麼樣糾正過來不要"},{"start":149.54,"end":175.055,"text":"海巡署啊 拼命講預算不夠啊幹什麼這個不夠那個不夠結果一有機會就這樣子這個撈這個把預算整個吃掉很不好啊 副署長報告委員 報告委員那個台中茶具隊最近三年就申請那個工廠喔 實驗工廠就這一件171萬所以對廟外界講的議員喔我想這樣對辛苦工作的海巡隊員是不公平的"},{"start":175.475,"end":188.035,"text":"好得了啦這一件我們對於惡犯罪絕對不凌東震要凌犯罪的你請我啦我們就請那個邱部長一起上來好了邱部長邱部長來"},{"start":194.002,"end":196.724,"text":"因為美國的對等關稅的關係,一到五月份外銷非常暢旺,大家提早出貨,售收有沒有增加?"},{"start":212.192,"end":229.707,"text":"跟委員報告一到五月份這個部分在比較上可能有一些還沒有太大的意義為什麼因為大宗的稅款就是中所稅跟銀所稅那一般是到五月底結算以及繳納那今年因為延到六月底所以今年的一個數額到五月底的數額"},{"start":230.632,"end":257.138,"text":"在比較上沒有太大的相同基礎所以要到六月底才會比較明確那個證交稅呢證交稅是比去年的同期是來的少的少多少少大概有兩百少了兩百二十六億比去年同期一到五的少少的百分比呢少的百分比是百分之十九點五那很多耶對 十九點五 對那因為成交量的關係是好 莊部長你請回了謝謝"},{"start":258.518,"end":285.215,"text":"我請教這個邱部長剛才大家都一直在罵這個家樂園 我也罵家樂園家樂園 你看到喔這個年成長率是百分之八九十這個大家就會想說 那標準趕快出來一拖 二拖 三拖 四拖使得我們的稅損減少一百億了有人這樣算過好 現在有一頂帽子戴在你頭上"},{"start":286.155,"end":290.682,"text":"有媒體這樣講 邱部長你仔細聽喔他說 衛福部卡關駐長嘉樂園的走私這頂帽子好大一頂喔 你要回應一下吧你們卡關 所以走私 拼命走私"},{"start":303.772,"end":317.998,"text":"我想報告召委,Ni防治法當然就是我在衛環委員會當立委的時候當然也討論了很久,那裡面特別又要求要審查所以變成有指定N品健康風險評估審查辦法的一個制定,那這是兩年前的事情"},{"start":321.94,"end":338.742,"text":"那不管有辦法還有審查委員怎麼找那都找好了就一直在審所以它其實它是有標準的不是沒有標準一直有標準只是說等一下請吳司長可以補充就是據我整個去了解它整個過程就是"},{"start":339.967,"end":354.384,"text":"審查委員有意見就變成審查會的意見嘛然後就請業者去補就這樣來來回回然後他其實開會開了五十幾次以上最主要的問題是什麼地方告不定"},{"start":359.697,"end":388.183,"text":"應該都是風險評估這個部分風險評估 什麼樣的風險評估是這樣子啦 我要求健康署去把所有的會議能公告的健康署的署長還是副署長都能夠盡量給大家知道你跟我講一下 什麼風險 什麼樣的風險知道問題在哪裡有時候其實是有時候其實我據我了解有時候是業者提出來的就沒有符合上一次的要求所以這樣的一個其實我相信他們也省得很痛苦啦"},{"start":388.963,"end":400.672,"text":"那這中間其實大家要你告訴我們一個啦 大家很關心的 給我們一個時間表可以嗎什麼時候渴望落日 這個法審定什麼時候 今年可不可以 今年底"},{"start":402.622,"end":424.439,"text":"我想我們會因為有很多都已經進入到最後的階段所以應該希望業者能夠在最後的不需要到今年底嗎我們越快越好在三個月可以嗎按照他的規定我們當海在行政手續絕對一定是用最快的速度在處理三個月內可以搞定嗎 三個月"},{"start":427.534,"end":448.36,"text":"三個月可以搞定嗎我們希望能夠可以嗎 目標三個月搞定可以嗎我們希望能夠另外其實大家對加拿大的擔心是因為裡面可以放大麻的萃取物一堆什麼之類的有獨架什麼之類的你在這裡是不是可以承諾"},{"start":451.378,"end":458.063,"text":"衛福部站在保障國人的健康大麻絕對不可老化可以嗎"},{"start":460.133,"end":483.09,"text":"大麻到目前為止也是未來也都不會有開放的這種絕對不會因為法務部的次長公開承諾大麻絕對不合法法務部也不同意開放法務部就不開放大麻大麻在台灣這個地方不可以合法電子煙"},{"start":486.718,"end":508.063,"text":"也是不能喝嘛 是不是是的好 這兩個好 第二個問題我想請教這個AIT不僅僅關心我們的什麼急救保啦還關心我們的血袋不夠啊說我們的血袋啊 裝血那個袋子啊那有什麼了不起台灣沒有做 都是靠進口的部長 你在說什麼為什麼"},{"start":510.303,"end":530.158,"text":"為什麼這個血袋你自己拿著做啊?你要怎麼做?我想賴昭偉是算醫療中的很了解醫療的委員啦齁我說實在我也不清楚為什麼當時為什麼血袋都不能做?可能因為他透視的技術或者是說做這個是過去怎麼樣目前我們要做的就是血袋我們要國產"},{"start":539.878,"end":552.164,"text":"這是在做的方向,是不是我們那個食藥署食藥署來,食藥署署長副署長賴委員報告,目前雪袋的部分已經有一家國產業者在上個月底跟我們申請產業登記什麼時候可以開始生產"},{"start":553.78,"end":577.668,"text":"我們儘速審查 因為之前我們已經有跟他做過相關的 順利的話順利的話應該下半年就可以拿到許可證就可以開始有產品出來供應國內醫療院所使用這個實在丟臉啦 我們現在等於是台灣雲霧要快打上的樣子 然後都是AIT給我們指指點點我們的這個醫療準備 他說我們的這個急難包也是他來給我們講"},{"start":580.069,"end":591.696,"text":"請問你,如果打仗,血漿夠不夠?部長,血漿夠不夠?血漿夠不夠?當然,血漿方面我們會不會,如果是全血就不敢講,血漿我們已經儲備了相當的一個量多長?血漿多少?"},{"start":605.472,"end":614.277,"text":"我們把這個數字了解以後再報給委員會相關的消煙料呢主要打仗用的最常用的當然是止痛藥消煙料這個"},{"start":617.996,"end":636.169,"text":"我相信這個我們衛福部有一個韌性的計畫因為這個是有他就要有一個重要的韌性的我們醫事室報告一下好不好醫事室下面的人拜託像周偉報告我們對於這個戰略的本來就有準備十萬人份的外傷的相關的藥品這個是過往就已經準備了有沒有規劃地下醫院"},{"start":649.42,"end":667.034,"text":"這個部分也跟周委做一個報告事實上這個我們也在準備我們現在的公立醫院如果有新建的這個建築物我們都要求在地下應該要有準備這個醫療的空間所以只要有新蓋的都要要求地下化是不是我們現在的公立醫院我們都有要求"},{"start":667.614,"end":694.713,"text":"好 最後一個 來部長 大家很關心的題目中融第一季斷頭3億 第二季斷頭5億外務部規定每一季不可以比去年多因為你們為了要那個點數好看北農6月初已經達到了同去年同一季的100%之後啊 這都是做功德啦"},{"start":695.686,"end":713.784,"text":"事實上對醫務人員就是減薪啊這個事情啊這個部長啊 你是表面好看 哇0.9 0.95對賴總統有交代 可是對醫務人員變相都減薪耶現在總統沒錢總統就最好的例子 不用也是啊"},{"start":714.898,"end":723.103,"text":"只要跟稍微簡單報告 整理要報告一下中榮來講因為他成長的率其實也太快他成長的7.6%我們已經給他7.6%了已經高過中區6.0%的標準"},{"start":730.228,"end":749.703,"text":"那他因為第一屆領到的錢比去年多領了2.5億那我們希望醫學中心真的要落實分級醫療也這樣讓醫學中心的同仁當然薪水不減低之下減輕負擔這個部分都不會影響到相信都不會影響到現在已經有了我剛剛講了北龍現在6月10號就已經達標了"},{"start":753.604,"end":780.776,"text":"後蓋作為都給作為不是不是給作為啦有打折啦我們會還有就是特別強調一下剛性需求譬如說你看重症你看急症這個我們都健保都會補給他所以秉作道才是正道啊有沒有考慮我們要爭取把碳費做補充保費可不可以你要不要這樣主張我想這個都大家一直在研議當中保費增加你想辦法去拿錢啊"},{"start":783.714,"end":806,"text":"謝謝委員一直把我們健保的資源能夠增加你在這個時空要漲保費不容易啦去漲碳費可以啦我們會多元化而且委員也知道這個政府在公務預算的預支真的也不少啦所以今年是有史以來最高的啦其他你就用書面來給賴召委好不好好的沒問題沒問題好謝謝召委謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":180,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時40分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["賴委員士葆：以及海巡署的謝副署長。"],["主席：請海巡署謝副署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官早。因為媒體揭露你查緝私菸的緝私獎金，每一年8,000萬的執行率幾乎是百分之百，全部領光了，結果剛才委員有提到，發現已經被逮到彰化那個地方緝私……海巡署底下的這個人跟……等於是找職業走私的人頭、有勾串，把這個錢都領光光。這個事情被媒體這樣揭露，也沒看到你們的反應，你們到底查得怎麼樣？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有這個事我問你，有沒有這個事？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有這回事？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，現在是在偵查中，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：偵查中？已經好幾天了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，3月11號搜索調查開始之後，我們依照規定在6月11號跟他……現在在羈押中的還有一位，立刻免職；另外兩位，一位是現在偵查中，我們會列為年終考績淘汰的對象。"],["賴委員士葆：所以涉入的有3位，是不是？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有3位，一位羈押、兩位交保。"],["賴委員士葆：一位羈押，兩位？"],["謝副署長慶欽：交保。"],["賴委員士葆：交保？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["賴委員士葆：未來你要怎麼防範呢？這個東西是利之所在啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們去年就訂了一個規定，所有人在做檢舉筆錄的時候，隊長要親自在場；第二個，依照規定核發獎金下來之後，要頒發的時候要有政風人員在現場，不僅要保護他的身分，而且要確認檢舉的真實性。"],["賴委員士葆：緝私員……你們的官員領這個獎金，不是什麼機密吧？"],["謝副署長慶欽：不是。"],["賴委員士葆：不是機密吧？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們所有的破案獎金，也就是查緝獎金最多一個人……有檢舉的人只有3萬5,000，沒有檢舉的人，最多也只有7萬。"],["賴委員士葆：7萬很多耶！7萬不是「只有」耶！是很多耶！我希望這個事情……這個很丟臉啦，海巡署很丟臉啦！我覺得要澈底地把它怎麼樣糾正過來，不要海巡署拚命講預算不夠，幹什麼這個不夠、那個不夠，結果一有機會就這樣撈，把預算整個吃掉，很不好啊！副署長。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，臺中查緝隊最近3年申請的私菸工廠就只有這一件，有171萬，絕對沒有外界講的億元，這樣對辛苦工作的海巡人員是不公平的。"],["賴委員士葆：也不得了啦，這一件。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們對違法犯紀的絕對是零容忍。"],["賴委員士葆：要零犯罪啦！好，你請回，我再請衛福部邱部長上台。"],["主席：邱部長，來。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["賴委員士葆：你稍等一下，我先請教一下財政部長。因為美國徵對等關稅的關係，1月到5月外銷非常暢旺，大家都提早出貨，稅收有沒有增加？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，1月到5月這個部分在比較上可能有一些還沒有太大的意義，為什麼？因為大宗的稅款，就是綜所稅跟營所稅，一般是到5月底結算以及繳納。今年因為延到6月底，所以今年到5月底的數額在比較上沒有太大的相同基礎，所以要到6月底才會比較明確。"],["賴委員士葆：那證交稅呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：證交稅是比去年同期來得少。"],["賴委員士葆：少多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：大概少了226億，比去年同期1月到5月……"],["賴委員士葆：少的百分比呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：少了19.5%。"],["賴委員士葆：那很多耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有19.5%，因為是成交量的關係。"],["賴委員士葆：好，莊部長請回。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我請教邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["賴委員士葆：剛才大家都一直在罵這個加熱菸，你看加熱菸的年成長率是百分之八、九十，這個大家就會想說，標準趕快出來吧！但一拖、二拖、三拖、四拖，使得我們的稅損減少100億，有人這樣算過。","好，現在有一頂帽子戴在你的頭上了，有媒體這樣講，邱部長，你仔細聽好了，它說衛福部卡關，助長加熱菸的走私。哇！這頂帽子好大一頂，你來回應一下吧！說你們卡關，所以走私的就拚命走私。"],["邱部長泰源：報告召委，菸害防制法當然就是我在衛環委員會當立委的時候討論過很久，裡面特別又要求要審查，所以變成有指定菸品健康風險評估審查辦法的制定，這是兩年前的事情。不管是辦法還是審查委員怎麼找，都找好了就是一直在審，所以其實它是有標準的，不是沒有標準，一直有標準，只是等一下可以請吳署長可以補充。","據我去瞭解它整個過程，審查委員有意見就是變成審查會的意見，然後就請業者去補，就這樣來來回回，其實開會開了五十幾次以上，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：最主要的問題是什麼地方搞不定？"],["邱部長泰源：什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：最主要的問題是什麼地方搞不定？"],["邱部長泰源：應該都是風險評估的這個部分，尤其……"],["賴委員士葆：是什麼樣的風險評估？"],["邱部長泰源：是這樣子啦，我要求健康署把所有的會議能公告的……"],["賴委員士葆：是健康署的署長還是副署長？"],["邱部長泰源：都能夠儘量給大家知道。"],["賴委員士葆：你跟我們講一下好不好？是什麼風險？是什麼地方有風險？"],["邱部長泰源：要清清楚楚地知道問題在哪裡，有時候其實是……據我瞭解業者提出來的其實就沒有符合上一次的要求，所以對於這樣的事，我相信他們也審得很痛苦。這中間其實大家要很清楚……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我們一個大家都很關心的，給我們一個時間表可以嗎？什麼時候可望落日？把這個審定，什麼時候？今年底可不可以？"],["邱部長泰源：因為有很多都已經進入到最後的階段了，所以希望業者能在最後的……"],["賴委員士葆：不需到今年底嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們是愈快愈好。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？再3個月可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：按照它的規定，我們當然在行政手續絕對是用最快的速度在處理。"],["賴委員士葆：在3個月內可以搞定嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望能夠。"],["賴委員士葆：可以嘛？目標就是在3個月內搞定，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望。"],["賴委員士葆：另外，其實大家對加熱菸的擔心是因為裡面可以放大麻的萃取物一堆什麼之類的，有毒駕什麼之類的，你在這裡是不是可以承諾衛福部站在保障國人的健康，大麻絕對不合法化，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：到目前為止，還有未來也都不會有開放的這種……"],["賴委員士葆：絕對不會，因為法務部的次長公開承諾大麻絕對不合法化。"],["邱部長泰源：法務部也不同意開放。"],["賴委員士葆：法務部就不開放大麻，大麻在臺灣這個地方不可以合法化。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["賴委員士葆：電子煙也不能合法，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我想請教第二個問題，AIT不僅僅關心我們的急救包，還關心我們的血袋不夠，就是我們裝血的那個袋子，那有什麼了不起？臺灣沒有做，通通是靠進口。部長，你要不要說一下？為什麼這個血袋我們自己沒辦法做，沒有人要做，到底是為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我想賴召委也是算很了解醫療的委員，說實在的，我也不清楚為什麼血袋都不能做，可能是有它特殊的技術。"],["賴委員士葆：那沒有了不起啊！"],["邱部長泰源：或者說做這個在過去是怎麼樣，目前我們要做的就是這個血袋我們要國產，這是在做的方向，是不是請食藥署王副署長來說明？"],["賴委員士葆：好，請食藥署副署長說明。"],["王副署長德原：跟賴委員報告，目前血袋的部分已經有一家國產業者在上個月底跟我們申請查驗登記。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以開始審查？"],["王副署長德原：我們儘速審查，因為之前我們已經有跟他做過相關的輔導……"],["賴委員士葆：順利的話是什麼時候？"],["王副署長德原：順利的話應該下半年就可以拿到許可證，就可以開始有產品出來供應國內醫療院所使用。"],["賴委員士葆：這個實在是丟臉啊！我們現在等於是臺灣一副快要打仗的樣子，然後都是AIT給我們指指點點，包括我們的醫療準備，還有我們的急難包也是他們來跟我們講，請問部長，如果真的打仗了，血漿夠不夠？"],["邱部長泰源：血漿……"],["賴委員士葆：你不知道？你是部長啊！"],["邱部長泰源：如果是全血我就不敢講，如果是血漿，我們已經儲備了相當的數量。"],["賴委員士葆：時間可以多長？血漿有多少？"],["邱部長泰源：我們在了解這個數字以後再報給委員會。"],["賴委員士葆：像相關的消炎藥，主要在打仗時最常用的當然是止痛藥、消炎藥，這方面的準備夠不夠？"],["邱部長泰源：我相信我們衛福部有一個韌性的計畫……"],["賴委員士葆：你都不知道啦！"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個是有一個韌性計畫在，我們請醫事司報告一下好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：好。"],["劉副司長玉菁：向召委報告，我們對於戰略方面本來就有準備10萬人份外傷的相關藥品，在過往就已經有準備了。"],["賴委員士葆：好。部長，你們有沒有規劃地下醫院？"],["劉副司長玉菁：這個部分也跟召委做一個報告，事實上，這個我們也在準備，我們現在的公立醫院如果有新建的建築物，我們都要求在地下應該要有準備醫療的空間。"],["賴委員士葆：所以只要有新蓋的，都會要求地下化，是不是？"],["劉副司長玉菁：我們現在對公立醫院都有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：好，部長，最後一個是大家很關心的題目，中榮第一季斷頭3億，第二季斷頭5億，衛福部規定每一季不可以比去年多，因為你們為了要讓點數好看，北榮6月初已經達到了去年同一季的100%，之後所做的都是做功德啦！事實上對醫護人員就是減薪。部長，這個事情只是表面好看，哇！0.9、0.95，對賴總統有交代，可是對醫護人員都是變相減薪，他們現在做的都是沒錢領的，中榮就是最好的例子，北榮也是啊！"],["邱部長泰源：跟召委簡要報告一下，以中榮來講，因為它成長得太快，它成長了7.6%，我們已經給它7.6%了，已經高過中區6.0%的標準，其實它第一季領到的錢比去年多了2.5億，那我們希望醫學中心真的要落實分級醫療，也當然要讓醫學中心的同仁在薪水不減低之下減輕負擔，這個部分相信都不會影響到……"],["賴委員士葆：現在已經有了，我剛剛講了，北榮在6月10號就已經達標了，之後做的都是多做的，因為都不給錢了。"],["邱部長泰源：不是多做的，有打折啦！我們還要特別強調一下剛性需求，譬如說，你看重症、你看急症，我們健保都會補給它。"],["賴委員士葆：所以把餅做大才是正道啊！你們有沒有考慮要爭取把碳費拿來做補充保費？可不可以？你要不要這樣主張？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個大家都一直在研議當中。"],["賴委員士葆：保費增加了，你想辦法去拿錢啊！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員都一直讓我們健保的資源能夠增加。"],["賴委員士葆：你們在這個時空要漲保費不容易，去找碳費可以啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會多元化，而且委員也知道，政府在公務預算的挹注也真的不少，今年是有史以來最高的。"],["主席：部長，其他部分你就用書面來向賴召委說明，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，沒問題，謝謝召委。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：下一位請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}