{"total":{"value":47,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-06-23"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"162774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a849b7bfdee90f7ccb9483b76f331b600da6ae3643212cc5f9aab6c45daf424f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:50:45 - 11:05:24","影片長度":"00:14:39","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T10:50:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T11:05:24+08:00","duration":879,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.16909375,"end":10.915343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.269718750000003,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.400343750000001,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.30721875,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.589718750000003,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.859718750000003,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.01971875,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.17534375,"end":24.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.07346875,"end":27.773468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.094093750000003,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.21534375,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.69534375,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.80471875,"end":46.049093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.07409375,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.96409375,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.35596875,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.37284375,"end":56.916593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.541593750000004,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.13596875,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.67534375,"end":61.72596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.72596875000001,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.28471875000001,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.56596875000001,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.70909375000001,"end":96.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.80034375000001,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.43659375,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.57034375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.78471875000001,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.74159375,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.15034375,"end":129.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.66471875000002,"end":135.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.75659375,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.66284375,"end":141.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.67971875,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.91159375,"end":144.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.78034375000001,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.71659375000002,"end":152.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.03659375,"end":154.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.85909375,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.65596875,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.40659375,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.03034375000001,"end":182.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.51721875,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.32284375,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.54971875,"end":193.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.89096875,"end":197.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.03784375,"end":199.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.57346875000002,"end":205.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.75409375,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.00534375,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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我大家都叫爸爸大家都這樣吼"},{"start":281.704,"end":300.473,"text":"不可能我們付不起嘛,因為所得稅60%所得稅所以我們要去學費,那個是亂搞啦,不要講那個那現在回到日本這邊他的住宿機構提供的房數也差不多三成而已那間三百多層的安養機構,外面白堆買一百,八百多"},{"start":310.571,"end":332.078,"text":"死一個補一個,死一個補一個所以人家老人家,我在民國有看,都在家比較多因為冬天他們又冷,那他們的日本人的習性跟我們台灣人又不太一樣台灣人的嘻嘻嘩嘩,老人家說我唱歌跳舞,我唱什麼比較不會失智啊,對不對?那不是啊,都一口吐一口大吐,看電視死在家裡面,五天,沒人知道"},{"start":337.409,"end":346.392,"text":"所以他們的社工雜貨都一直在卡電話而已,他們都外面不想出來,所以他們的時薪跟我們看不一樣所以長壽,然後又不喜歡出來,又天氣又冷所以我們台灣這個是蠻適合,我們老人會要叫他們出來啊,我覺得那個都非常好但是咧,我們的長照機構,大陸人第一次一個月補六千、八千、補一萬嘛,現在一萬嗎?"},{"start":363.086,"end":387.493,"text":"要一個要三萬多塊你補一萬所以你的費用是遠遠不足啦所以團團王一鳴在說你現在那個規模是太少了啦所以如果長照保險在第八屆我們我跟那個劉建國王一鳴我們都努力過但是那個時候有反對所以那個推不過那現在應該如果他的規模越來越長到3.0"},{"start":389.774,"end":405.108,"text":"規模越大事實上是要考量今天這個老人福利法這個評鑑制度因為很多來陳情我想每個人都談過了我也在開過協調會醫院評鑑以前也是優等特優、優等、合格、不合格"},{"start":413.697,"end":418.42,"text":"不然就改成合格不合格這樣比較簡單啦你常常在這裡熬午飯吃一餅丁又休等那個是以前"},{"start":426.68,"end":453.565,"text":"該換 護理事項的評鑑也是用合格不合格還是兩套標準現在是怎樣 市長感受一下來 那個委員報告啦 我也知道現在大家都覺得說這樣一國多製 我的委員報告所以我們現在提出的就是說我們現在就是全部一致就把它區分成合格跟不合格我們就不區分成甲乙丙丁我們就是在這個部分我們來來朝這個方 我們就是確定啦"},{"start":454.125,"end":473.505,"text":"也確定啦那就是用這個方向 這樣比較簡單 你像說他的簡單易行 這樣讓大家好做事情來時間用來好好照顧我們的東北 這樣比較重要對啦 對啦 這樣就 感謝 謝謝再來就是這個身心障礙者保護保障法這個不愛做這個 現在要開始優先做 董隊你還有意見"},{"start":475.582,"end":488.889,"text":"這以前我們在武衛村,我們是10%一個車廂裡面要10%現在不然又提高到20%15%喔?我每天都在坐高鐵,我每天通勤的那高鐵剛才沒人坐,沒有要坐的人沒人坐,大家拍攝就去坐所以有時候年輕人坐在裡面,老的來,他老的不要老的,要幫忙怎麼樣"},{"start":502.321,"end":520.321,"text":"常常看到糾紛,所以你現在該做什麼?Priority Seat,優先洗優先洗,就是說反應的什麼都可以嘛就是說有需要的啦,按照有需要的,有的人表面上看好好,其實他是生病的啦,會有慢性病的"},{"start":523.664,"end":548.099,"text":"主席不要煩惱,今天這兩條,簡單啦其他的骨肉骨粟的不用我請罵啦有什麼請助理請什麼,那比較有課稅啦那要花錢啦,市長、部長,那要花很多錢我們會站在人民的需求上為最高點然後整個國家的一個財政...你現在住在那個機構安養的,現在有10萬床"},{"start":551.241,"end":555.962,"text":"那十萬床如果一個月補一萬塊,現在如果叫你補兩萬塊,你就倒了就幾十億了,所以我們要量力而為啦好,最後一個問題我要問你,失智現在這兩天有夠嚴重,我自己的表姐、三個都一直下去現在65歲,以上失智的有35萬人"},{"start":577.404,"end":580.926,"text":"65%是PRECIS,DEMENTIA,超過了多少?有65%是對的?15%我們早期15%,所以委員關心的是失智症的新藥液體"},{"start":597.079,"end":608.968,"text":"65歲以上比較Dementia65歲以下是Prescina我講的沒錯吧Prescina有多少人這裡35萬 這裡呢跟65歲以上比起來大概15-20%以台灣的數據所以就是35萬就乘以15-20%所以早發性的差不多也有7-8萬人那是很多"},{"start":624.949,"end":631.558,"text":"那你現在這個藥用打的開始打了 智慧這個藥是用每個禮拜打還是怎樣"},{"start":632.561,"end":660.405,"text":"跟委員報告這個藥在美國是去年7月才上市那目前是這個我都在做精準的評估那台灣大概是今天在亞東醫院會開打還是用自費來做那它是需要在失智症的非常早期這是第一個條件第二個條件是說它的那個Apple E4必須要陰性因為如果是Apple E陽性的話它比較容易腦水腫那第三個部分是財務評估我們時事處長已經對外講了所以這個部分要啟動這個HDA來做評估那是每個月打一次還是"},{"start":660.945,"end":685.54,"text":"目前有兩個藥提出申請因為我不能透露是哪個藥那其中一種藥是每個月打那後續還要追蹤MRI看他那個Amyloid的這個Plague他有沒有清楚就是那個類蛋白的這個堆積堆積有沒有清楚以上沒有清楚所以有的一個月打一次有的是打一支冬季的藥對有兩週的有一個月的但是因為我"},{"start":691.168,"end":703.504,"text":"因為我不能透露是哪一個有申請 抱歉沒關係啦 我們人苦事要人來做我覺得我在看我們這些親戚還有我們看到這個林院長林院長第八屆的時候站在那邊被質詢"},{"start":705.084,"end":710.707,"text":"我就看他比較內向,跟他很熟,你也很熟靈智營我更熟,我也是這個靈智營就比較厲害靈智營是點柱柱所以我看內向的人,精神科內向的人比較會中點柱柱的人"},{"start":722.688,"end":749.836,"text":"每天花謝罵人的人,我看待會兒目前的研究,人格特質跟失智症的發生比較沒有關係,跟基因跟環境後天生活習慣關係性比較大,以上補充所以是類蛋白的堆積,AMLOID的堆積在涅涅的地方,是不是?目前兩個學理論,一個是AMLOID的堆積就類蛋白,另外一個是Tau protein的堆積,那目前兩個理論都有在用,兩個都有藥物研發,以上"},{"start":750.336,"end":777.764,"text":"所以你這個藥是要清除那個類蛋白在腦部的堆積現在是這樣嗎?是所以喔好那要做基因的類型什麼藥嗎?是要做基因的檢測主要是為了副作用擔心他這個藥物引起的腦水腫那目前美國的研究是有33%所以排除了那個相關的基因型他腦水腫的副作用會比較小主要是為了病人安全以上補充所以我覺得每一個人都要保持頭腦動一動"},{"start":779.984,"end":801.091,"text":"打麻將啦,找人吵架啦,這個也是有效,所以普通話,每天找你學妹,你就不會好歹啦這個很嚴重,我覺得非常非常嚴重,太多啦有的是輕輕的,有的是越來越嚴重,所以看了都很怕,所以這個要出來真的是福音啦"},{"start":802.409,"end":828.162,"text":"智慧 健保不給物 柏定首先我們要評估他本土的資料這個也很重要 我想因為我們要驗證他的效果然後再評估一個財務的benefit跟burden這樣子就是利弊得失那我覺得照顧失智我們要多元化 趙偉你說的"},{"start":830.447,"end":844.915,"text":"腦筋要多動多運動要瘦薄一點營養精衡可能這個都是可以預防的那政府在這個部分不管是在工廠中心據點那這個部分都有都已經有準備其實那一種"},{"start":846.257,"end":873.887,"text":"你做專研會 意思說專研會是我們辦很多長照開始訓練 人臉訓練所以那個時候的題目就叫做失智的一個計畫表示一日十當中我們就要去關心未來的照顧但是那是後面 我個人覺得怎麼樣早期來診斷 早期來預防可能也是一個重點 跟趙偉的意見一樣好 我們大家一起努力啦 謝謝感謝 謝謝"},{"start":876.584,"end":876.604,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時50分）謝謝主席，我請部長跟次長。"],["主席：請邱部長及呂次長。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["蘇委員清泉：講臺灣話應該沒有問題吧！部長，今天很簡單只有討論兩條條文而已，第一個是老人福利法第四十八條的評鑑制度，另外一個是身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條有關博愛座的問題，早上我很詳細的聽每一位委員的發言，部長本身也當過召委員，應該也都知道。我先問你，你老了之後會想要住安養院嗎？次長你有想要住嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我到現在還沒有想到這個問題，拚到沒日沒夜。"],["蘇委員清泉：最好是做到老啦！我覺得醫療人員好像沒有什麼退休年齡，事實上我從第8屆、第9屆、第10屆到現在第11屆，第8屆我們搞長照服務法到現在，我跑北歐、哪裡都看了，我總歸一個結論，日本的狀況跟我們比較接近，所以日本的制度看起來比較貼切，至於北歐那邊只是去看爽的而已，因為實在差太多了。我跟部長講，我們到日本名古屋等地到處去看，也跟他們詳細討論，現在日本的安養院，像我們去看八王子區，他們的狀況都差不多，裡面蠻溫馨的，硬體設備也不錯，他們的四人房……關於他們的介護，在我看的時候一年的介護保險費用就已經高達10兆日幣，折合臺幣不知道多少了！日本政府「哀哀叫」，從安倍時代就想把介護保險和醫療保險mix在一起，結果搞到現在好像也沒有，兩者還是分開，為什麼？你知道是什麼原因嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：兩者性質不一樣啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：不一樣嘛！我看的那間床位有三百七十幾床，然後有一個退休醫師就到那邊當院民，順便當駐院醫生，他住不用錢，還可以拿一點薪水，因為他已經退休了；裡面的護理師也是一樣，退休之後就住在那邊當院民，同時也順便當護理師。我覺得這樣很好，老的照顧更老的，我們現在就是在推這個，包括儲存時數等等全都combine。這些老護理師就一直做，做到不能做為止，我覺得這樣很好，臺灣到最後可能也是這樣，我也跟屏東的護理師說，或是有醫生從衛生所退休時，我說你來我這裡上班，公共醫師、診所醫師65歲退休，隔天就來我們法人這邊上班了，護理師也是一樣，退休之後有的當志工，有的在長照那邊做，如果不這樣的話，根本找不到人啊！所以部長，這是可以考量的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：他們的四人房一個月合臺幣差不多3萬6,000、3萬7,000，這和我們差不多，兩人房差不多臺幣5萬2,000左右，單人房臺幣七萬多塊，政府付的差不多三萬多塊，你如果去看歐洲，那是不可能的事情！我跟你講，我們去芬蘭赫爾辛基和瑞典首都斯德哥爾摩看他們的安養院，政府付給業者一個人一個月差不多24萬臺幣，如果是精神科的nursing home（護理之家），一個月就要付35萬臺幣。我說我們的安養機構如果一個月付給我25萬，我每個都叫他爸爸，但是不可能，我們付不起嘛！他們的所得稅可以繳到60%，所以我們要去學北歐那個是亂搞啦，不要講那個。","現在回到日本這邊，它的住宿機構提供床數也差不多三成而已，那間三百多床的安養機構，外面排隊要進來的有八百多人，但只能死一個補一個，所以就我在名古屋看到的，他們的老人在家裡的比較多。因為他們的冬天很冷，而日本人的習性跟臺灣人不太一樣，臺灣人喜歡熱鬧，老人會可以唱歌、跳舞或互罵，比較不會失智，但他們不是這樣，都是一個人傻傻的在家裡看電視，死在家裡五天都沒人知道，所以他們的社工吃飽都一直在打電話而已。他們都關在家裡面不喜歡出門，他們的習性跟我們比較不一樣，他們長壽但不喜歡出門，加上天氣又冷，所以我們臺灣是蠻適合，我們有老人會叫他們出來，我覺得那個都非常好，但是住在我們的長照機構裡面，現在你們一個月是補助6,000、8,000或1萬？現在是補助1萬嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：對，1萬。"],["蘇委員清泉：一個月要三萬多塊，結果你們才補助1萬，所以你們的費用是遠遠不足，就像剛剛王育敏所說的，現在的規模實在太少了，如果有長照保險……在第8屆我跟劉建國、王育敏都曾努力過，但是那個時候有人反對，所以推不過，現在如果要推動長照3.0，規模越來越大，事實上應該要考量。","針對今天所要討論的老人福利法評鑑制度，因為很多人來陳情，我想每一個委員都談過了，我也開過協調會。醫院評鑑以前也是分為特優、優等、合格、不合格，後來改成合格及不合格而已，這樣比較簡單。現在長照有甲、乙、丙、丁和優等，那個是以前啦，現在應該要換了。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：護理之家的評鑑也是用合格和不合格嗎？還是兩套標準？現在的情況到底是怎麼樣？"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，我也知道現在大家都覺得怎麼會是一國多制，所以我們現在提出的是全部一致，就是把它區分成合格和不合格，而不區分甲、乙、丙、丁，這部分已經確定了，我們就是用這種方式，這樣比較簡單，而且也簡單易行，這樣讓大家比較好做事，把時間用來好好照顧長輩，這樣比較重要。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，這樣好。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來是與身心障礙者權益保障法有關博愛座，現在要改成優先座，部長你有意見嗎？以前我們在推動的時候，本來一個車廂裡面要10%，後來好像又提高到20%……"],["呂次長建德：15%。"],["蘇委員清泉：15%是嗎？我每天通勤搭高鐵，高鐵前面的博愛座都沒有人坐，大家都不好意思進去坐，所以有時候年輕人坐在裡面，老人來了就倚老賣老要把他趕走，常常看到糾紛，所以你現在改成什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：priority seat（優先席）。"],["蘇委員清泉：包括懷孕或什麼的都可以嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：就是有需要的，有的人表面上看起來好好的，其實他是生病的、有慢性病的。"],["蘇委員清泉：主席不用煩惱，今天處理這兩條很簡單啦！其他「拉拉雜雜」的就不用審了，包括請助理或什麼的，那怎麼有可能？要到哪裡去籌錢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會以人民的需求為最高點，然後整個國家的財政……"],["蘇委員清泉：現在住在機構安養的有10萬床，一個月補助1萬塊，現在如果叫你補助2萬塊，你就倒了，一年會多幾十億、上百億，所以我們要量力而為。","最後一個問題，我要問你的是失智，這兩天有夠嚴重，我自己的表姐、很多人都是這樣，現在65歲以上失智的有35萬人，65歲以下的Presenile Dementia差不多有多少人，你知道嗎？有的人五、六十歲就有了。"],["邱部長泰源：15%。"],["蘇委員清泉：亮妤，你來回答，你是精神科的。"],["邱部長泰源：亮妤是精神科醫師。"],["蘇委員清泉：對、對！"],["陳副署長亮妤：我們早期是15%，委員關心的是失智症的新藥議題，是嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：對，65歲以上叫dementia嘛？"],["陳副署長亮妤：是、是。"],["蘇委員清泉：65歲以下叫presenile，我講這樣沒錯吧？"],["陳副署長亮妤：是、是，完全正確。"],["蘇委員清泉：presenile有多少人？那裡是35萬，那這裡呢？"],["陳副署長亮妤：以臺灣的數據來講，跟65歲以上比起來大概是15%到20%，就是35萬乘以15%到20%。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以早發性的差不多也有七、八萬人？"],["陳副署長亮妤：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：那很多欸！現在這個藥開始打了，自費，這個藥是每個禮拜打，還是怎樣？"],["陳副署長亮妤：跟委員報告，這個藥在美國是去年7月才上市，目前世界各國都在做精準評估，臺灣大概是今天在亞東醫院開打，還是用自費來做，它是需要在失智症的非常早期，這是第一個條件；第二個條件是他的APOE必須要陰性，如果是APOE陽性的話，他比較容易腦水腫；第三個部分是財務評估，我們石署長已經對外講了，這部分要啟動HDA來做評估。"],["蘇委員清泉：是每個月打一次，還是？"],["陳副署長亮妤：目前有兩個藥提出申請，因為我不能透露是哪個藥，其中一種藥是每個月打。後續還要追蹤MRI，看他amyloid的plaques有沒有清除，就是類蛋白的堆積有沒有清除，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以有的是一個月打一次，有的是打一次撐一年喔？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，兩個禮拜啦！"],["陳副署長亮妤：對、對！有兩週的、有一個月的，但是因為我……"],["蘇委員清泉：是打皮下，還是打IV？"],["陳副署長亮妤：是IV。因為我不能透露是哪一個有申請，抱歉！"],["蘇委員清泉：沒關係啦，我們如果有需要，也都要打啊，對吧？我在看我這些親戚，還有看到林院長，林院長第8屆的時候站在那邊備詢，我看他比較內向，我跟他很熟，你們也很熟。林靜芸我更熟，我們是馬偕的嘛！林靜芸話比較多，林芳郁就很安靜，所以我覺得內向、安靜的人比較會得到喔！每天在發洩、罵人的人，我看比較不會……"],["陳副署長亮妤：跟委員報告，根據目前的研究，人格特質跟失智症的發生比較沒有關係，跟基因、環境及後天生活習慣關係性比較大，以上補充。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以還是類蛋白堆積（amyloid的堆積）在顳葉（temporal）的地方，是不是？"],["陳副署長亮妤：目前兩個理論，一個是amyloid的堆積，就是類蛋白，另外一個是tau protein的堆積。目前兩個理論都有在用，兩個都有藥物研發，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這個藥是清除類蛋白在腦部的堆積，現在是這樣嘛？"],["陳副署長亮妤：是！"],["蘇委員清泉：好，要做基因類型的檢測嗎？"],["陳副署長亮妤：是，要做基因的檢測，主要是為了副作用，擔心這個藥物引起腦水腫。目前美國研究是有33%，排除相關的基因型，他腦水腫的副作用會比較小，主要是為了病人安全，以上補充。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以我覺得每一個人都要保持頭腦動一動，像打麻將、找人吵架，這個也是有效的。所以部長，我現在每天找你吵架，你就不會失智了。這個很嚴重，我覺得非常非常嚴重，太多了，有的人是輕微，有的人就越來越嚴重，看了都很怕，所以這個藥出來真的是福音啦！自費，健保不給付，部長？"],["邱部長泰源：首先，我們要評估它本土的資料啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：OK，好。"],["邱部長泰源：這個也很重要，因為我們要驗證它的效果，再評估財務benefit跟burden，就是利弊得失。我覺得照顧失智者要多元化，如召委說的，腦筋要多動、多運動、睡飽一點、營養均衡，這個可能都是可以預防的。政府不管是在共照中心、據點，這個部分都已經有準備，其實我們那時候在醫師公會全國聯合會就辦很多長照的人員訓練，那個時候的題目就叫作失智的計畫，表示一、二十年前，我們就有在關心未來照顧失智者的議題，但那是後面的問題，我個人覺得怎麼樣早期診斷、早期預防可能也是一個重點，跟召委的意見一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我們大家一起努力啦！謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：感謝。"],["主席：謝謝。蘇召委講的話，可能會造成內向的人心裡恐慌，還好副署長有即時的……"],["邱部長泰源：我很內向。"],["主席：你不會啦！副署長剛剛有解釋了，跟個性無關啦！跟蘇召委報告一下，個助不是沒有經費，而且已經執行一段時間，剛剛特別講到是他在評估、核可還有執行面相關的問題，個助不是沒錢啦！現在休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時18分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請黃秀芳委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a0416a2cca6210b63b9483b76f331b600da6ae3643212cc5fdff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:35:48 - 10:49:48","影片長度":"00:14:00","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T10:35:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T10:49:48+08:00","duration":840,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.88596875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.64846875,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.309718750000002,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.65471875,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.83846875,"end":74.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.07409375,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.68034375,"end":115.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.19846875,"end":125.54721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.28534375000001,"end":127.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":127.30221875000001,"end":155.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.05221875,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.98596875,"end":155.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.36534375000002,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.50034375,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.66846875000002,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.50534375,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.13346875000002,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":214.29284375,"end":223.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":224.06346875000003,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.99409375000002,"end":236.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.63034375,"end":244.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":244.02659375000002,"end":247.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":247.82346875000002,"end":250.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.86096875,"end":258.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.53909375,"end":317.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.95596875,"end":325.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.96721875000003,"end":336.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.10909375,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.71159375,"end":352.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.41034375000004,"end":363.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.34534375000004,"end":382.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.09346875,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":398.58471875000004,"end":398.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":403.64721875000004,"end":404.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.02596875,"end":437.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.29159375,"end":441.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.76784375000005,"end":470.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.43409375000005,"end":516.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.0347187500001,"end":525.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.2822187500001,"end":525.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.4678437499999,"end":525.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.9740937500001,"end":542.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.22471875,"end":543.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.06409375,"end":544.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.9584687500001,"end":546.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.13534375,"end":548.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.68784375,"end":548.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.83971875,"end":548.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.97471875,"end":554.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.32409375,"end":568.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.27971875,"end":576.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","sta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請邱部長委員好 部長好 稍等一下PowerPoint"},{"start":25.339,"end":50.959,"text":"部長這個障礙團體其實曾經跟我反映過出門像出國吃飯像打仗那我想這兩句話是顯示障礙者在台灣生存的生活的困難那也更有重度障礙者例如說為了申請自立生活核定時數不足的問題而打贏行政訴訟的這個預解因為政府核定給他的時數根本不足夠"},{"start":51.92,"end":73.976,"text":"所以像玉姐這樣的障礙者根本不是在過生活而是連生存啊都很辛苦很困難所以我想部長你知道連生存都有困難是什麼感覺嗎部長根據我們聯合國的身心障礙者的權利公約CRPD的第19條B款是這個等第5號的一般性意見書"},{"start":75.297,"end":99.067,"text":"個人協助是障礙者自立生活與社區融入的重要條件那為了讓身心障礙者能夠使用各種居家住所及其他的社區支持的服務包含必要的個人協助以及支持以支持社區生活跟融入避免跟社區隔離其實許多國家有不同的立法形式有些是定立專法"},{"start":99.887,"end":125.16,"text":"那有些在障礙者相關的法律中列為專章那有些可能是專條但是我國這項制度僅是以授權命令訂定的子辦法那在法律層層級跟這個規範的密度上都相對落後部長我們既然自稱是一個很注重人權的人權大國難道我們不該至少以專章或專條的形式來符合CRPD嗎"},{"start":128.295,"end":148.4,"text":"我想謝謝委員的指教回應身心障礙這裡有各國的比較自立生活及融入社區的精神這個的確是非常需要而且也是我們在努力的目標那我們現行的個人助理的實施其實是有一招"},{"start":149.12,"end":175.091,"text":"我們身心者自立生活目標跟自立生活計畫在提供啦我大概都猜到你的講法啦那部長沒關係國際上已經有早已經這個邁向去機構化嘛對不對社會主流是回歸社區融入社區要促成自立生活需要很多的制度的配合那例如什麼無障礙同用設計等等但是個人協助制度其實是其中最關鍵的機制"},{"start":176.411,"end":185.688,"text":"那跨國的研究也已經證實所以個人助理立法不僅是影響社會的平等更攸關障礙者的健康跟福祉"},{"start":187.098,"end":211.412,"text":"所以研究也顯示社會平等對於這個障礙者的健康福祉有正面影響但這種效果只存在於有個人助理立法的國家然而今天我們的報告裡面的第12頁卻說這個委員提案的專章或者是專條內容多屬於執行面的規定建議無需納入本法請問部長這是否代表衛福部反對這項立法呢"},{"start":214.332,"end":230.101,"text":"我們其實是那個一個目標我們可以用多元性或者是其他的方式來達到那可能在最沒有爭議的情況之下為了這個像您提的這個議題"},{"start":232.942,"end":248.541,"text":"其實在兩年前也同樣 我當召委的時候就是聯繫可能兩天後 大家討論到各方的意見所以那件事情連Priority Set都停下來所以我想怎麼樣取得大家的共識 我們完全是站在"},{"start":251.044,"end":270.676,"text":"達到這個身心障礙權力公約的目標來努力但是這過程怎麼樣不知道大家能夠接受我們雖然不是這個聯合國的會員國但是透過這個施行法將國際公約納入我們台灣的法制其實政府也應該遵守相關的義務那其實2017年和2022年的時候我們兩度邀請了國際審查委員來台審查這個CRPD的執行情況那審查委員也兩度"},{"start":278.44,"end":291.655,"text":"针对个人助理的制度提出改进建议那然而从2017年到我们2025年除了2023年的时候将个人助理的时薪从200元提升到250元以外"},{"start":293.157,"end":317.21,"text":"我國好像並沒有其他明顯的進展那從數據上來看呢我們全國各住的人數從2022年的625人到2023年雖然增加至大概748人但去年又下降到733人顯現是沒有大幅的增長所以這說明單純只是提高時薪並不足以吸引人投入各住的工作"},{"start":318.271,"end":325.251,"text":"既然如此,我們是不是應該比較長照制度以專法或專章的方式來建立完整的個人助理制度呢?"},{"start":326.991,"end":352.312,"text":"再者部長我想你最清楚你剛剛講了你最清楚這個這件事情的來龍去脈但是其實各障礙團體也在前年就達成共識這個從帳蒙在2023年的9月發出支持修法也支持個人各駐入法的這個公告就可以看出來不是嗎所以你剛剛說有很多的這個不同的意見我想這個部分大家應該是已經有共識"},{"start":353.493,"end":382.229,"text":"所以最後部長你知道你們民進黨不分區排名第18位的這個重度身障者陳俊漢律師生前最關心的也是這個條文嗎那上一屆其實已經延宕修法那這一屆初期呢我們可以看到我們前行政院長陳建仁也承諾說要在去年五月五月前提出生權法的修法版本但是現在已經又過了一年半了請問行政院的版本到底在哪裡"},{"start":383.169,"end":397.274,"text":"那今天送來的報告是否要否定這個你們的同仁同志陳俊安律師的遺願衛福部真的要無視我們國際的趨勢漠視障礙團體的需求甚至背離自己的同志嗎所以部長這個議題啊"},{"start":398.894,"end":413.849,"text":"因為時間有限 我等一下還要放個影片這一題是關係到障礙者的生存不只是這個生活品質的問題讓每個人都有尊嚴的活著是我們國家最基本對他們的義務也是基本的人權那接下來我要放一個影片"},{"start":414.529,"end":441.091,"text":"是獲得當事人同意的訪談紀錄喔是用我們辦公室同仁去訪問的這是重度障礙者我剛剛前面提到育姊的故事喔所以我希望看完這個喔部長要發揮人機幾機的精神然後希望部長不要忘記衛福部對於全國人民福祉跟維護基本人權的權責的所在好那請大家看一下這段影片就是育姊的影片好謝謝你覺得剛才給你的指數就您的目前的狀況你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":442.272,"end":470.531,"text":"到目前政府合格给我的时数我一天可以使用的时数是8个小时早上两个小时大夜是6小时一共8小时我觉得时数是非常不足的用上我觉得最大的困扰是说如果是这样使用的话大夜有但是小夜没有的话我必须有五六个钟头六个钟头我都没有人力的资源可能对我的生活造成困扰我可能会就是歪倒或者是我自己的公民性慢慢的萎缩或者配化我就支持不了长时住的没有人力的状况之下"},{"start":471.511,"end":493.574,"text":"那我必须可能还是要有人力协助我但是这样不会动用到两个服务单位一个是警方的警力还有救护车来协助我把我扶起来就是说能够摆位好让我坐定位那我觉得我是不能用这两个资源来协助我因为他们很辛苦不是他们职场范围之内但是因为我没有人力因为这时数实在不够的话情况之下不得已"},{"start":493.954,"end":518.515,"text":"被迫了才動用到警方的警慮跟捕捉的協助但是這個長此以往對於大家都造成困擾又對於就是社會資源也不能是這樣的使用這是不合理的一個情況所以可能政府在這方面也要考慮到這是重度障礙者的一個使用的時間人力資源的安配不能多增加一些時間性跟我的人力資源的話可以提供我的生活照顧政府資源的措施才會讓社會無視"},{"start":520.556,"end":543.656,"text":"理论上政府应该是要把这个资源去做一个公平的分配才能达出一个平衡因为我想说是不是我们今天可能针对于重新评估但是真的要针对于需求来评估而不是说一天以八个小时这就是合可给我的一个实书的一个认定但是我觉得知道对我来说没有针对真正的我能够需求评估那我需求就是说如果夜间有再多三个小时"},{"start":544.116,"end":558.725,"text":"到4個小時我就可以很好的生活的狀態就至少不用再去動用警察跟救護車這兩個單位實在是太辛苦他們了他們不是職長範圍之內的我覺得針對於需求上可以讓政府知道我們重度障礙者能夠有"},{"start":559.105,"end":575.91,"text":"他們的一個需求那如果像我這邊比如說135我能夠有大夜班26日我就沒有我一天可以睡覺一天不要睡覺這個不是我所期待的因為其實健康的人每天都要睡眠所以一天可能至少要8個小時沒有8小時要6小時可是如果小夜也沒有大夜也沒有可是要經過這麼多時間的話"},{"start":577.611,"end":596.407,"text":"在我生活上非常有困难就是连睡觉这样的一个基本的生理需求都是一种奢求了对一个奢求了晚上这样撑不了那么久啊我如果这个姿势撑的话手会麻会酸就你之前就是一三五有各处晚上大夜然后二四六就没了就是我们刚才讲的就是一天八小时的状况稍微再低补一些时间这样子"},{"start":596.707,"end":616.858,"text":"那麵小夜前街上你看六個小時這六個小時很困難就是說照片是五點開到晚上十一點才有人進來這幾個小時當中如果我還是這樣撐著撐不了多久我倒了或是怎樣或者我才能夠請一個救護車或警方去解決我趕快把我扶起來因為就是讓我很困難的地方是"},{"start":617.478,"end":634.115,"text":"就說他們在需求評估上面這一段也沒有真的去落實就是針對每一個障礙者他們真正的需求是什麼像你的個案就是很清楚就是你明明有這個需求但是他們就只願意給一天半小時一天半小時對啊 那就不叫需求評估啦那就是定額感我們總計啦大概一天至少要14個小時"},{"start":634.916,"end":656.807,"text":"如果早上兩小時,因為早上兩小時是我的空間時間,日外的聯繫就很重要,比如說早上關部門,不管是社會局、衛生局員、超照、辦員、飛鴿館,比如說沿路督導、沿路照服員,比如說他請假,有沒有人代班,這也是我要聯繫的。我身邊有人跟我講,我下個禮拜三要請假,可是我要預先跟督導預約,可能不在這間時間代班。"},{"start":659.028,"end":675.608,"text":"那我说我督导也很忙所以那不可能晚上联系嘛晚上也没人晚上我也没那个时间嘛联系那公部门的很多部单位白天都在上班那我如果跟社会局联络跟医院联络现在个人助理医院承担嘛那我如果跟督导说督导我这个礼拜几啊我的各组啊"},{"start":675.908,"end":700.031,"text":"他要請假那我有沒有人可以來做代班這個我都要聯繫這個兩個小時的黃金時段那我找這個電話一定要有人所以這個不能少然後但是晚上的時間就是六個小時那小夜班又沒有了如果是以六個小時小夜班就沒有了所以世界上不足啊對 嚴重的不足可是針對需求他沒有針對真實的我來做安排預算有限都是用這一句話就沒辦法了"},{"start":700.411,"end":729.539,"text":"这个我们来努力预算有限但是要精准的分配分配到有需要的重群上面这个就是比较困难的我还是希望有个度啊那赵福元是就是已经时间性了已经在这边用项目制了现在觉得个度很像长照1.0的一个服务我就觉得好温馨还是时数不够还是时数不够然后人数可能就那个各处的目前能力还是不够还是不够对对对这个我们还要再努力因为时间性了时间如果他时数增加人力可以再多配置还是可以"},{"start":733.166,"end":758.933,"text":"部長就是給你看這影片就是希望這個我們為政者是明知所欲藏在我心啦你要看到他真實的需求不是用很多的理由或者是說時間要演繹在更多的共識來拖延我覺得這個就是希望部長可以看到如果你有需要的話我這影片再提供給你希望你們可以就是真正理解到他們的需求然後盡速的解決好不好好 非常謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":762.214,"end":767.398,"text":"那個李次輝回應一下吧我後面講三點啦非常感謝委員的關心但是那個郁潔那個小姐我跟洪森漢之前洪委員我已經去新莊看過他兩次也當中有的我們會弄一個示範方案在第一點第二點"},{"start":780.208,"end":783.169,"text":"市長剛剛他裡面有講到這個長照部分算是項目制嘛那他各住有很多東西是他真的需要他個人的需求"},{"start":801.778,"end":816.464,"text":"譬如說你說這個長照制度他來可能洗頭洗完頭就其他事不能做吃完飯其他事不能做那他還是需要有各住的部分所以我想我後面這個我是不太能接受但你第一點說有一個這個事辦方案"},{"start":817.244,"end":836.977,"text":"這可能要拜託呂次 你看這個究竟要怎麼處理我們已經跟那個郁潔小姐 已經跟她在弄這個示範方案那現在的狀況就是 跟新北市政府我們共同合作那希望說這個東西 因為不只是郁潔一個人是重度障礙者所以拜託這個我們部長和次長可以持續的努力 謝謝 一起加油"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":698,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時35分）謝謝主席。請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。部長，障礙團體其實曾經跟我反映過，出門像出國，吃飯像打仗，我想這兩句話是顯示障礙者在臺灣生存、生活的困難，更有重度障礙者，例如為了申請自立生活核定時數不足的問題，而打贏行政訴訟的玉姐，因為政府核定給他的時數根本不足夠，所以像玉姐這樣的障礙者，根本不是在過生活，而是連生存都很辛苦、很困難。部長，你知道連生存都有困難是什麼感覺嗎？根據聯合國身心障礙者的權利公約CRPD的第十九條第b款，第5號一般性意見書，個人協助是障礙者自立生活與社區融入的重要條件，為了讓身心障礙者能夠使用各種居家、住所及其他的社區支持服務，包含必要的個人協助以支持社區生活跟融入，避免跟社區隔離。其實許多國家有不同的立法形式，有些是訂立專法，有些在障礙者相關的法律中列為專章，有些可能是專條，但是我國這項制度僅是以授權命令訂定的子辦法，在法律層級跟規範的密度上都相對落後。部長，我們既然自稱是一個很注重人權的人權大國，難道我們不該至少以專章或專條的形式來符合CRPD嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，回應身心障礙公約……"],["廖委員偉翔：這裡有各國的比較。"],["邱部長泰源：自立生活及融入社區的精神，這個的確非常需要，而且也是我們在努力的目標，我們現行個人助理的實施，其實是有依照身障者自立生活目標跟自立生活計畫在提供……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，謝謝，我大概都猜到你的講法。部長，沒關係，國際上早已經邁向去機構化，對不對？社會主流是回歸社區、融入社區，要促成自立生活，需要很多制度的配合，例如無障礙、通用設計等等，但是個人協助制度其實是其中最關鍵的機制，跨國的研究也已經證實個人助理立法，不僅是影響社會的平等，更攸關障礙者的健康跟福祉，所以研究也顯示社會平等對於障礙者的健康福祉有正面影響，但這種效果只存在於有個人助理立法的國家。然而，今天報告裡面的第12頁卻說委員提案的專章或者是專條內容多屬於執行面的規定，建議無須納入本法。請問部長，這是否代表衛福部反對這項立法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：一個目標我們其實可以用多元性或者是其他的方式來達到，可能在最沒有爭議的情況之下，像您提的這個議題，其實在兩年前我當召委的時候，也同樣……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道。"],["邱部長泰源：也是連續討論，可能兩天後，大家討論各方的意見，所以那些事情……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長……"],["邱部長泰源：連priority seat都停下來了。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，我繼續問下去。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我想怎麼樣取得大家的共識，我們完全是站在達到身心障礙權利公約的目標來努力，但是這個過程怎麼樣讓大家能夠接受……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我們雖然不是聯合國的會員國，但是透過這個施行法將國際公約納入我們臺灣的法制，政府也應該遵守相關的義務。其實在2017年和2022年時，我們兩度邀請國際審查委員來臺審查CRPD的執行情況，審查委員也兩度針對個人助理的制度提出改進建議，然而從2017年到2025年，除了2023年時將個人助理的時薪從200元提升到250元以外，我國好像並沒有其他明顯的進展，從數據上來看，我們全國個助的人數從2022年的625人，到2023年雖然增加至748人，但去年又下降到733人，顯現沒有大幅的增長，所以這說明只是單純提高時薪並不足以吸引人投入個助的工作。既然如此，我們是不是應該比照長照制度，以專法或專章的方式來建立完整的個人助理制度呢？再者，部長，你剛剛講的，你最清楚這件事情的來龍去脈，但是其實各障礙團體也在前年就有達成共識，從障盟在2023年9月發出支持修法、也支持個助入法的公告就可以看出來不是嗎？所以你剛剛說有很多不同意見，我想這個部分大家應該已經有共識。","最後，部長，你知道你們民進黨不分區排名第18位的重度身障者陳俊翰律師生前最關心的也是這個條文嗎？上一屆其實已經延宕修法，這一屆初期我們可以看到前行政院長陳建仁也承諾要在去年5月前提出身權法的修法版本，但是現在已經又過了一年半了，請問行政院的版本到底在哪裡？今天送來的報告是否否定你們的同志陳俊翰律師的遺願？衛福部真的要無視國際的趨勢，漠視障礙團體的需求，甚至背離自己的同志嗎？所以部長，這個議題，因為時間有限，我等一下還要放個影片，這個議題是關係到障礙者的生存。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：不只是生活品質的問題，讓每個人都有尊嚴的活著是我們國家最基本對他們的義務，也是基本的人權。接下來，我要放一個影片，這是獲得當事人同意的訪談紀錄，是我們辦公室同仁去訪問的，這是我剛剛前面提到的重度障礙者玉姐的故事，所以我希望看完這個，請部長要發揮人飢己飢的精神，希望部長不要忘記衛福部對於全國人民福祉跟維護基本人權的權責所在。請大家看一下玉姐這段影片，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。","（播放影片）"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，給你看這個影片就是希望我們為政者「民之所欲，常在我心」，你要看到他真實的需求，而不是用很多的理由或者是要時間再研議更多的共識來拖延，我覺得這部分希望部長可以看到，如果你有需要的話，這個影片再提供給你，希望你們可以真正理解到他們的需求，儘速的解決，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，非常謝謝委員，也請呂次回應一下。"],["呂次長建德：我剛剛有提到三點，非常感謝委員的關心，但是那位玉姐小姐，我跟之前的洪申翰委員已經去新莊看過她兩次，也當場承諾我們會弄一個試辦方案，這是第一點。第二點，她剛才說的8小時是個助，但是我們長照也另外有8小時，所以他一天是使用16小時，但是永遠都不夠，沒關係，還有輔具的部分，還要做一個總體評估。"],["廖委員偉翔：次長，其實剛剛影片裡面有講到長照部分算是項目制，但個助有很多東西真的是他個人的需求，譬如你說長照制度，他來洗頭，可能洗完頭，但其他事不能做，吃完飯，其他事不能做，他還是需要有個助的部分，所以後面這個我是不太能接受，但你第一點說有個試辦方案，可能要拜託呂次看這部分究竟要怎麼處理。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們已經在跟玉姐小姐弄這個試辦方案。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在的狀況就是……"],["呂次長建德：我們跟新北市政府共同合作。"],["廖委員偉翔：希望這個東西……因為不只有玉姐一個人是重度障礙者。"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以拜託部長和次長可以持續努力，謝謝，一起加油。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定努力，謝謝委員。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：好，謝謝廖偉翔委員的詢答。","還是要提醒衛福部，今天很多委員已經提出個助以及自立生活的問題，剛剛這個影片是還可以申請到8小時，就我的理解，平均到8小時幾乎是微乎其微，平均應該是低於8小時，我相信衛福部應該很清楚。我想執行上應該沒有窒礙難行的問題，但是不要有評估障礙、核可障礙、執行障礙的問題，等一下應該還有其他委員會討論到，最主要我還是希望今天的委員會可以回應身心障礙朋友今天開記者會實質上的一些內容，針對這些內容衛福部是不是有相關的盲點到現在還沒有處理？","接下來請蘇召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91ace8cfe70fcc5aaf57f2aef3382ea3fb0da6ae3643212cc5ff0fba3fac4fb75495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:46:20 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個別儲育這個深化的這個計畫的內容裡面找出來的就你們有把它分成三軸的儲育了那這個個別儲育的這個三軸計畫其實我整個看起來它最大的問題還是同樣跟剛才同樣的問題就是我們人力的配置"},{"start":405.176,"end":428.602,"text":"還有資源的落差還有風險的這個份額處遇能力的這些限制這是我們目前整個不用改革最大的問題這個像資源的落差我們現在這些我想知道說我們現在進行的這些包括社工、心理師、教化人力現在是不是足以支撐這套制度現有的"},{"start":429.946,"end":457.955,"text":"我們的新設人力我們近幾年有跟人總來爭取啦那人總也給我們核定從勞務承攬變成A用人員那明年我們會提出我們事辦之後的一個成效來再報行政會明年才會提出是不是這個本來就是我要問的就是你們實施你們的這個成效評估到底在哪裡明年明年初提出這些這個這個"},{"start":460.537,"end":476.717,"text":"這個評估包括你這些個別處遇之後的這些人他們的這個回歸社會之後我們要長期追蹤他的災犯率包括針對他復歸社會的適應情形我覺得這個都是應該是我們整個這個個別處遇實施之後的評估成效評估的重要的"},{"start":477.658,"end":505.919,"text":"是 我們會綜合評估但是我們是以爭取新設人力為主因為我們的新設人力他不只是做這個所謂的個別處役他也有可能是會做毒品犯的處役性侵家暴處役都會協助這個部分就是我接下來大概會跟你比較深入的討論有關於治療性處役的部分尤其是毒品的部分"},{"start":506.9,"end":519.335,"text":"但是我在看到你們有實施一個示範一個我個人認為非常好那我也想知道它的成效跟你們推廣計畫就是我目前齁在這個台南第二監獄有示範這個受刑人個別處遇的自主管理卡"},{"start":521.543,"end":536.628,"text":"這個自主管理卡的這個計畫讓這個受刑人他在這個本於這個受刑人在他面對需要這些行政這個他能夠這個自主管理他的這個個別處遇的情況"},{"start":537.848,"end":556.887,"text":"讓受刑人能夠擔任自己專案的管理師讓這個教誨師轉化成一個督導的角色我個人認為說這個制度實施是非常好但是我知道現在好像只是在台南第二監獄裡面的業讀專班在實施是不是"},{"start":562.234,"end":578.031,"text":"有沒有要擴大到先不要說擴大到全國啦你再除了戒毒專辦是不是整個這個台南至少在台南第二監獄有沒有擴大報告委員這個部分是由南二監他自己去擬定計畫去試辦的"},{"start":579.932,"end":592.177,"text":"將來我們可以看到事辦完之後的結果請藍二間來我們署本部報告它的成效如何如果可以的話我們再來討論相關的擴大我要講的就是說不要說將來現在他們其實辦理這段時間已經有相當我個人認為有相當的成果是不是現在我們就來進行評估請他們現在就來報告他們辦理的"},{"start":603.462,"end":622.898,"text":"的狀況那是不是能夠擴大到能夠推廣到其他的全國的其他的地方我們是可以請他盡快來署裡面報告這個評估之後我希望你們三個月裡面提出報告不過三個月後署長已經退休了不過你們署裡面三個月提這個報告給我可以嗎因為我們要先確認他事辦的成效怎麼樣結果到什麼階段"},{"start":629.864,"end":658.572,"text":"第一個就是三個月的時間你們先了解他們現在示範的狀況是不是讓我們會後來了解實際的情況再跟委員回覆我就是要求三個月啦那你們你們去這三個月裡面你們去了解他現在示範的成效那去了解去評估他是不是有推廣的可能好不好那接下來我就是再講的就是剛剛所提到的這個有關毒品這個治療性處於裡面的這些毒品戒營的部分這個部分其實"},{"start":659.983,"end":688.176,"text":"其實這個我看到現在目前的統計我們的這個受刑人幾乎有將近四成都是這個毒品危害防治法也就是說我們如果不解這現在這個其實是很負擔很大這個到四成的受刑人都是因為這個毒品危害防治條例所以這個台灣毒品戒營的這種儲育體系他確實是有具是一個很大的挑戰他也是我們改革這個儲育機制的一個很重要的關鍵"},{"start":689.617,"end":694.599,"text":"但是我們目前全台的我們這些職能治療師還有相關的這些人力其實都不夠"},{"start":701.223,"end":719.551,"text":"我們在目前我們是希望說我們跟衛福部能夠有一個合作的機制跟平台那這個部分現在我們目前有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有跟衛福部就在我們自己人力這些職能治療人力不足的情況之下我們有沒有跟衛福部來合作有相關的機制嗎有相關的平台嗎"},{"start":722.359,"end":743.917,"text":"我們相關的毒品的處理 包括之前所謂的減害計畫美沙東替代療法 我們都有跟以前叫做衛生署 現在衛福部來做合作我們目前也都有跟衛福部的相關司處來做相關的精進"},{"start":745.443,"end":767.281,"text":"這個部分其實他也會牽涉他除了這個人力不足以外他更也會牽涉到他處於的資源的分配不均你在都市跟在其他的縣市這個這些資源也會分配不均我希望說這些機制能夠建立起來台南你不解決這個問題你要所有處於機制的改革都會卡到因為有4成的受刑人士"},{"start":768.622,"end":788.837,"text":"是這些毒品防治法的這些受刑人所以這部分會是很關鍵最後我提一個這個上個禮拜但是大家社會上並沒有很注目但對我們來講是一個很重要的事情就是上個禮拜這個我們通過這個跟司法院會前之後通過少年事件處理法的這個修正"},{"start":789.818,"end":816.266,"text":"的修正啦齁那這個是行政院應該是行政院院會通過啦齁那這個基本上這整個少年事件處理法它這個修法的重點齁就是讓這個少年事件的這些處遇齁能夠它的保護處分齁它能夠轉換它之間有多元化它可以轉換機制啦齁這是第一個重點另外一個重點就是有關於檢討這個修正前案塗銷的一些相關規定啦齁"},{"start":817.326,"end":833.634,"text":"因為這個修法會涉及到包括法院的部分包括檢查體系包括社政包括教育包括警政有很多不同的主管機關其實它這個配合這個修法它都必須要同步的修訂一些相關規定所以我希望說你們這個應該要同步的修正這個少年保護官的手冊跟處遇的評估工具"},{"start":841.818,"end":857.167,"text":"那也需要盤點相關的配套啦市長這部分因為我們準備要進行這樣的修正行政院會已經通過了我需要相關的配套跟委員報告齁因為這個少年事件處理法還有剛剛委員提到的少年保護官齁都是司法院的權責"},{"start":858.347,"end":864.47,"text":"那所以我們會配合提出我們這邊你們這邊包括有一些相關的盤點要盤點你們相關的這些配套你們還是要進行這些配套的修正我們會提出來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時46分）主席，請黃次長、周署長。"],["主席：請黃次長、周署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：次長好。前面莊委員質詢最後提到的部分，真的很巧，就是我接下來要談的問題。剛才提到有關行刑累進處遇條例，你說這個將來要廢止？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["沈委員發惠：基本上我們今天討論的主題就是行刑累進處遇條例的相關規定，也就是現行累進處遇的機制，事實上，行刑累進處遇條例除了制度上的問題，也已經放在那邊很久而沒有進行修正，最後一次修正好像是2006年，19年前修正以後，就丟在那裡、放在那裡，制度繼續在用，其實照理講，就算廢止之前也還有很多要修正的地方，不過剛剛次長的意思好像現在就是不管它有什麼問題，就放在那裡，但未來我們就是要廢止？"],["黃次長世杰：行政上可以處理的，已經有部分……"],["沈委員發惠：對，有一些部分其實不用動到修法，行政上就可以處理，但是還是有一些讓我們念法律的人看了有點刺眼的地方，譬如第一條，第一條「依監獄行刑法第二十條受累進處遇者，適用本條例之規定。」其實它應該是第十八條第二項的授權，但這個立法卻說是第二十條，如果這個法還要繼續用的話，這一條我覺得……"],["黃次長世杰：因為監獄行刑法在109年有大修過，可能是因為這樣……"],["沈委員發惠：對啦！有大修過，但這個沒有相對修正……"],["黃次長世杰：是，當時沒有一併處理。"],["沈委員發惠：照理講，如果我要拼國會評鑑，應該趕快再提一個案來修法，但我知道法務部的態度，基本上這就不再修了，就是等到它被廢除、廢止，其他要改革的事項，能夠用行政手段處理的，都用行政規定處理了，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，現在我們就回到處遇機制改革的方向，我仔細看了法務部的報告，有關處遇機制的改革，2017年的司改會就有提到；2017年司改會第五分組有關獄政制度改革小組，在第二次會議的決議第四項提到：慎重考慮廢除累進處遇制度。這是司改會的決議，我們看司改會這樣的決議，其實它也不敢寫說應該要廢除，也只是說應該慎重考慮，為什麼？其實第二次世界大戰之後，雖然大部分國家都已經儘量把累進處遇方式改成所謂善時制，就是按照個別風險去評估，但是我們看到這些有實施風險評估機制的國家，包括美國德州、加州，加拿大、英國、日本等，他們其實並沒有像我們臺灣現在這種嚴重超額收容的情形，還有教化人員和受刑人比例懸殊的問題。我們目前想要改革處遇機制最大的問題，就在於我們超額收容的情況很嚴重，而且教化人員和受刑人比例也非常懸殊，甚至還有缺額，上個禮拜我們就有討論到目前缺額的狀況，包括教化人員不足，以及相關社工、心理背景專業人員，我們也幾乎都付諸闕如，這也是為什麼司改會那時候說要慎重評估，而不敢就此做下結論建議應該廢止累進處遇條例，這是我們目前的狀況。","不過，我們也不能因為有這樣的狀況就繼續下去，就不改革了，我看到在2017年司改會之後，你們的報告裡也提到在2018年、2019年分別委託了中央警察大學、中正大學針對累進處遇條例進行研議，一直到2022年才提出一個正式回應，也就是在民國111年提出「深化受刑人個別處遇實施計畫」，就是針對過去的累進處遇，在未來完全廢除累進處遇之前，先深化個別處遇，是不是這個方向？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們現在有在做。"],["沈委員發惠：有啦！這就是接下來我比較關心的部分，我們的個別處遇計畫，針對受刑人，有一個叫做個別處遇的三軸計畫，這部分是不是請周署長回應比較清楚？就是我們把受刑人在監獄處遇的期間，應該受的矯治教育分成三種：一種是一般性、一種是保護性、一種是治療性……"],["周署長輝煌：嗯、嗯。"],["沈委員發惠：這是我從你們的矯正期刊和個別處遇深化計畫的內容找出來的，就是你們把它分成三軸處遇，針對這個個別處遇三軸計畫，我整個看起來，最大的問題還是跟剛才提到的問題一樣，就是人力配置、資源落差，還有風險分類與處遇能力的限制，這就是我們目前整個改革最大的問題。以資源落差為例，我想知道的是，現在進行的方式，包括現有社工、心理師、教化人力，是不是足以支撐這套制度？"],["周署長輝煌：我們的新設人力，近幾年有跟人總爭取，人總也核定我們從勞務承攬變成約用人員，明年我們會提出試辦之後的成效再報行政院。"],["沈委員發惠：明年才會提出，是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：明年、明年要提出。"],["沈委員發惠：這也是本來我要問的，就是你們實施成效的評估到底在哪裡？"],["周署長輝煌：明年初會提出。"],["沈委員發惠：這個評估包括個別處遇之後，這些人回歸社會後，我們要長期追蹤他的再犯率，還有他復歸社會的適應情形，我覺得這些都是整個個別處遇實施之後成效評估的重要內容。"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們會綜合評估，但是我們是以爭取新設人力為主，因為我們新設的人力，不只做所謂的個別處遇，它也有可能做毒品犯的處遇，性侵、家暴處遇都會協助。"],["沈委員發惠：接下來我要跟你討論比較深入的部分，有關治療性處遇部分，尤其是毒品部分，你們有實施一個試辦計畫，我個人認為非常好，所以我也想知道它的成效跟你們的推廣計畫，就是目前在臺南第二監獄有試辦受刑人個別處遇的自主管理卡，自主管理卡的這個計畫是讓教誨師在處理受刑人業務所需面對行政措施力有未逮時，受刑人能夠自主管理自身個別處遇的情況，讓受刑人能夠擔任自身管理師，等於自己擔任自己專案的管理師，讓教誨師轉化成一個督導的角色，我個人認為這個制度的實施是非常好，但是我知道現在好像只是在臺南第二監獄裡面的戒毒專班在實施，是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["沈委員發惠：有沒有要擴大？先不要說擴大到全國，除了戒毒專班以外，至少在臺南第二監獄，有沒有擴大的計畫？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，這個部分是由南二監自己去擬訂計畫試辦的，將來我們可以看它試辦完之後的結果，請南二監來我們署本部報告它的成效如何……"],["沈委員發惠：不要將來了，現在就進行，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：如果可以，我們再來討論相關的擴大。"],["沈委員發惠：署長，我要講的是，不要說將來了，其實他們辦理這段時間，我個人認為已經有相當的成果，是不是現在就來進行評估，請他們現在就來報告辦理的狀況，是不是能夠推廣到全國其他的地方？"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們是可以請他們儘快來署裡面報告。"],["沈委員發惠：評估之後，我希望你們三個月內提出報告，不過三個月後署長已經退休了，請矯正署三個月提這個報告給我，可以嗎？請次長督導一下。"],["周署長輝煌：因為我們要先確認它試辦的成效怎麼樣、結果到什麼階段了……"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以有給你三個月的時間，第一個就是三個月時間，你們先了解他們現在試辦的狀況……"],["周署長輝煌：是不是容我們會後來了解實際的情況，再跟委員回復。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我就是要求三個月，你們在這三個月裡面去了解它現在試辦的成效，去了解、去評估它是不是有推廣的可能。"],["周署長輝煌：是，好的。"],["沈委員發惠：接下來，我要再講的就是剛剛所提到的，有關治療性處遇裡面的這些毒品戒癮的部分，這個部分其實我看到目前的統計，我們的受刑人幾乎有將近四成都是涉及到毒品危害防制條例，這個其實負擔很大，四成的受刑人都是因為毒品危害防制條例，所以臺灣毒品戒癮處遇體系確實是一個很大的挑戰，也是我們改革處遇機制一個很重要的關鍵，但是我們目前全臺的這些職能治療師，還有相關的這些人力其實都不夠，我們是希望跟衛福部能夠有一個合作的機制跟平臺，這個部分現在我們有沒有這樣的狀況？我們自己在這些職能治療人力不足的情況之下，我們有沒有跟衛福部合作？有相關的機制嗎？有相關的平臺嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們相關的毒品處遇，包括之前所謂的減害計畫、美沙東替代療法，我們都有跟以前的衛生署、現在的衛福部來做合作，我們目前也都有跟衛福部相關司處來做相關的精進。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分，其實除了人力不足以外，也會牽涉到處遇資源的分配不均，在都市跟在其他的縣市，這些資源也會分配不均，我希望這些機制能夠建立起來，如果不解決這個問題，所有處遇機制的改革都會卡到，因為有四成的受刑人是毒品危害防制條例的這些受刑人嘛！這個部分會是很關鍵的。","最後我提一件事，社會上並沒有很矚目，但是對我們來講，是一個很重要的事情，上個禮拜我們跟司法院會銜之後，通過少年事件處理法的修正，這個應該是行政院院會通過的，基本上這整個少年事件處理法的修法重點，就是讓少年事件的這些處遇，它的保護處分能夠轉換，之間有多元化，可以視少年需求有轉換機制，這是第一個重點。另外一個重點就是有關於檢討修正前案塗銷的一些相關規定，因為這個修法會涉及到包括法院的部分、包括檢察體系、包括社政、包括教育、包括警政，有很多不同的主管機關，其實為了配合這個修法都必須要同步修訂有關少年的一些相關規定，所以我希望你們要同步修正少年保護官的手冊跟處遇的評估工具，也需要盤點相關的配套。次長，這個部分因為我們準備要進行這樣的修正，行政院院會已經通過了，我希望能夠盤點相關的配套。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，少年事件處理法還有剛剛委員提到的少年保護官都是司法院的權責……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道。"],["黃次長世杰：所以我們會配合提出我們這邊觀察到的需求……"],["沈委員發惠：你們法務部有一些部分要盤點你們相關的這些配套，你們還是要進行這些配套的修正，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們會提出來，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：好，以上。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員。","接下來請吳思瑤委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川"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有請我們服務部黃次長還有矯正署周署長還有我們衛生福利部我們石署長 次長我也好"},{"start":25.952,"end":44.499,"text":"還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這也是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來就教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面"},{"start":46.1,"end":62.758,"text":"在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金廚藝條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標"},{"start":63.619,"end":70.345,"text":"是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面"},{"start":78.693,"end":84.056,"text":"受刑人,那其實他還是我們的國民,他只是穿著球衣的一個國民。那他在我們監獄裡面,生活的基本的一個需求,這個也都是我們國家去編列預算,來去做一個支付。"},{"start":97.563,"end":108.618,"text":"那可是呢 你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過 就是說那時時屬長你沒來 就說"},{"start":113.086,"end":133.98,"text":"那在地的很多區域醫院,剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄,那你必須要到醫療院所來做服務,去看一看之後,受刑人,還是去看一看之後,進去服刑以後,他真的是有些跟家庭,或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好。"},{"start":136.201,"end":143.828,"text":"那又進去服刑以後跟家庭,就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊,到最後都欠繳啦,欠錢啦,看白就看不去啦所以,隆重,石署長你知不知道,到醫療院所裡面,給這個監獄受刑人,這樣欠多少錢"},{"start":155.839,"end":176.7,"text":"跟委員報告,保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關納罷啦,這就是部分負擔,還有一些醫療費用,從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬,你說你健保費,你看在矯正署,我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了"},{"start":177.381,"end":185.77,"text":"那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK 市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊"},{"start":202.085,"end":214.248,"text":"醫院無辜啊 你看譬如說 我一直在講台東馬街 我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院 他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所 你說欠了五千萬你問教證署 教證署說你這台我的事 那不是我的事啊我是人換人來 給你照顧 願意給你打扮 給你上便衣 健保衛生 又給你便利選 給你拉馬跟教證署又無關 可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是 人你帶來啦"},{"start":229.387,"end":253.879,"text":"那個健保署的意思就是說你們的意思就是說不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都 彼此都沒事醫院 他說我沒辦法繳薪繳證署當然他必須要去協助去幫忙醫院啦 說不然你快吊吊的 去給他收工或是說他沒看來除了這些以外你也不能說繳證署你跳出來你要幫人 你帶來的 你要去付錢"},{"start":255.782,"end":274.525,"text":"你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,那各地的便衣店,你要怎樣,你有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於"},{"start":275.986,"end":295.183,"text":"人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說"},{"start":296.424,"end":306.808,"text":"這個我們都認定 受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付日子之後 年期啦 電啦 食飯啦 這都國家嘛這都叫國家 如果你再去把它擴大的話 就是說醫療的部分"},{"start":318.744,"end":347.831,"text":"社會沒給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人沒給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家沒給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法 次長那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個事務長講的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁"},{"start":348.827,"end":356.411,"text":"應該是剩下四千或三千多萬我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受刑人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療法律關係但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的"},{"start":369.679,"end":384.219,"text":"就是其實授權並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分"},{"start":385.04,"end":409.397,"text":"再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你加一加就四千多萬"},{"start":411.396,"end":417.2,"text":"但是還會有清場啦是嘛,所以我要跟他說已經不夠,好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啦,就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶"},{"start":433.937,"end":451.845,"text":"社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的社會的氛圍是常常是 嗚 這個人你看尤其事件剛發生的時候 嗚 這個好可惡喔你會殺人喔 你會詐欺喔 幹嘛幹嘛 社會是討厭的社會那個時候的氣氛就是說 吃粽 管好事 好啦 起訴啦"},{"start":454.306,"end":479.583,"text":"審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個累進廚育的一個條"},{"start":484.266,"end":506.661,"text":"這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛 您說的嘛 對不對"},{"start":510.053,"end":524.764,"text":"三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%"},{"start":527.645,"end":541.617,"text":"犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦"},{"start":543.564,"end":561.548,"text":"那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔?相關的多少?"},{"start":570.95,"end":574.573,"text":"我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬"},{"start":586.923,"end":605.272,"text":"你是七千多萬 你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的 我當然很清楚你要拿到 你要進階到 譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後 他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣 人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金"},{"start":609.974,"end":617.34,"text":"但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月要做多少?多少你知道嗎?讓你以後最多的多少,可以出來做的。我問的,都沒差過一百塊。"},{"start":627.523,"end":632.407,"text":"所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦 什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦 有的沒的那差不多都差不多到最後都修身養性 乖到很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說站在比較高的分所嘛"},{"start":653.496,"end":672.609,"text":"所以當然那個叫結果啦 但是我們整體來看 我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會 如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一"},{"start":675.082,"end":689.499,"text":"這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同我不知道蘇丁你的看法是什麼報告委員"},{"start":690.16,"end":718.241,"text":"我們勞作軍機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會 廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動"},{"start":719.882,"end":740.321,"text":"剛剛委員提到麵包 烘培 甚至有的是醬油工 那個就很高 那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高 這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目 比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花 那個就少了那個施工長 署長先請回"},{"start":741.122,"end":758.169,"text":"那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題"},{"start":762.17,"end":765.471,"text":"所以說你們要去找什麼可以去買你找就找到蓮花 或是在消磨時間而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面 有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦"},{"start":777.356,"end":791.464,"text":"有一些比如說我們會找一些比如說提代外銷的那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的我們盡量來找這種項目的啦但是也"},{"start":792.344,"end":807.59,"text":"跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進儲育的級數已經又變更高了啦是不是這樣說一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育我看你至少到二級以上啦"},{"start":824.002,"end":825.482,"text":"要不然你要怎麼去站在那裡?累進廚藝的級數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔 我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦我是認為啦 這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他"},{"start":853.587,"end":856.297,"text":"是被我們社會排除之外的國民"},{"start":857.944,"end":886.121,"text":"是這樣子嗎 是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些"},{"start":887.47,"end":901.938,"text":"台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這一個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說"},{"start":903.956,"end":929.987,"text":"從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作"},{"start":931.428,"end":955.557,"text":"再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁 如果衝到那個壽星人我們去看說我給你關 關到買啊 我就看這個賣啊 我也看不去啊 我也要去欠銷啊 再讓人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分 基本的一個國民"},{"start":956.857,"end":967.781,"text":"我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是 報告委員我可以講 補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看"},{"start":972.543,"end":989.062,"text":"他確實是跟累進廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘行有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛"},{"start":989.722,"end":1002.871,"text":"所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經足以達到幾級沒有 我們是用產型來篩選"},{"start":1009.797,"end":1032.914,"text":"委員那個 剛才那個委員所說的因為我們陳吳今天報告有講我們在這個累進主義制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在建議行政法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考"},{"start":1033.835,"end":1049.516,"text":"是啦 因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這一些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦 好不好是 我們都會檢討好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請法務部黃次長、矯正署周署長，還有衛生福利部石署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長、兩位署長好。其實我剛才提過了，每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題供行政部門去做參考與改善，這也是立法院的監督所必須要的。從今天所提出的報告裡面我有幾個問題來就教，我們在司法及法制委員會也一直在呼籲，現行的行刑累進處遇條例裡面各級的差別，還有整個責任分數跟成績分數，以及長期矯正署的規劃目標是把整個累進處遇的制度廢除掉，規定到監獄行刑法裡面去。我提出幾個問題，今天特別請石署長上來的原因是，在一般監獄裡面，受刑人其實還是我們的國民，只是是穿著囚衣的國民，他在監獄裡面生活的基本需求也都是由我們國家編列預算來支付，可是這個基本生活到底包括哪一些？就可以來做討論。我記得我上禮拜就教過，那時候石署長沒有來，就是各縣市都會有一些監獄與在地的區域醫院、醫療院所合作需要到監獄去服務，他們去看完之後，確實有些受刑人進去服刑以後，有些是跟家庭有關或者是他本來的經濟狀況就不好，進去服刑以後又得不到家庭的支持，連看病的費用到最後都欠繳、連看病都看不起，石署長，你知道各醫療院所讓這些監獄受刑人欠了多少錢嗎？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，因為健保費的部分是都由矯正機關繳了，再來就是部分負擔還有一些醫療費用，從102年到現在大概差不多是5,000萬左右。"],["莊委員瑞雄：5,000萬，我們政府部門、矯正署都已經編列健保費了，只是在部分負擔的部分，就是一般老百姓去看病也要繳錢的部分，監獄受刑人看病也要繳錢，至於健保費是政府編列，其他還欠了四千多萬，這看起來政府已經幫他們繳了健保費，是受刑人自己沒錢，那要怎麼辦？可是另外有一造無辜，醫院無辜啊！比如說我一直在講的臺東馬偕，我覺得它很無辜啊！桃園部立醫院也無辜啊！其他的醫療院所，你說欠了5,000萬，如果你問矯正署，矯正署說這怎麼是我的事情？那又不是我的事情，我是在受刑人進來之後照顧他，生病幫他送醫院，甚至都編預算幫他繳健保費了，跟矯正署又無關。可是站在醫療院所的立場就是，人是你帶來的，健保署的意思就是，部分負擔本來就是你要繳的，大家講的好像彼此都沒事，醫院說，不然我要找誰？矯正署當然必須要去協助、去幫忙醫院跟家屬說趕快繳一繳，除了這些以外，矯正署也不能跳出來說，人是我帶來的，我要去付錢。健保署，算是醫療院所的主管機關，對於各地的醫院遇到這種情況，你有什麼比較好的方法嗎？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這個事情我們也有在健保會討論過，因為健保署的預算主要都是來自於人民繳交的健保費，所以用這個去貼補，在公平性上確實有它的爭議性，但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔財務風險，所以我們一方面……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你這樣講也是無解啊！黃次長，我的意思就是說，我們都認定受刑人在監的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付，進去之後，冷氣、電、吃飯等都是國家支付，如果再把範圍擴大的話，等於是醫療的部分，社會不支持、家裡的人可能不支持，除非他家裡有錢要支持他，會欠錢的大部分就是自己沒錢，或是他家裡不支持他，才會產生這種狀況嘛！我覺得這要解決，次長，有沒有方法？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，這個在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到，剛剛石署長講的5,000萬，事實上有一部分我們已經處理了，這是多年累積的總額，應該是剩下四千或三千多萬……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這筆錢你們從哪裡來的？"],["黃次長世杰：我們現在是這樣，因為欠費是受刑人看病，他跟醫療院所之間的關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["黃次長世杰：但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的，其實受刑人並不一定都沒有錢，我們憑良心講的話是這樣，針對經濟困難的部分，我們每年有編800萬的矯正作業基金去支應，去年也增加到1,000萬，未來在這個部分我們會再跟健保署來協商，對於過去的欠費跟未來如何處理，這個部分的經費問題我們會研擬逐年支應。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是因為不夠才會四年欠了快5,000萬嘛！"],["黃次長世杰：不只四年。"],["石署長崇良：102年到現在。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你把112年到114年的欠費加一加就四千多萬耶！等於四年就這樣了，對不對？"],["石署長崇良：但是還會有清償啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！所以我要跟你說的是，一定不夠。好啦！這個問題我認為是政府的責任，我們為什麼一直要考察，或者在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的專報？我們現在很為難耶！社會的氛圍是不利於討論這個議題，社會的氛圍常常是這樣，尤其是事件剛發生的時候，他們會認為這個人好可惡，他會殺人、他會詐欺，幹嘛、幹嘛，社會是討厭的，社會的氣氛是加重刑期，把他關到死。好了，起訴了、審判了，隨著時間會過去嘛！這個社會必須要穩定，到發監執行了，他就變成我們穿著囚衣的國民了，除非我們的現行制度有一個叫做終身監禁，但我們也不可能任何罪刑全部都提高到終身監禁，所以他在監的時候要怎麼樣去處理，這個就是一個該去思考的問題，否則現在不用說你們到最後是把整個累進處遇制度廢除掉，大家思考的就是這樣嘛！","接下來我要問，我們去考察這麼多監獄，署長，這些受刑人每個月的勞動與勞作金要多少才夠？3,000元是你們說的，對不對？是不是這樣說？"],["周署長輝煌：對，3,000塊是維持他生活基本費用的錢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以我們說，到監獄裡面去，你讓他學習謀生的技能，將這個作業賸餘的10%作為對犯罪被害人的補償，幫助他復歸社會，可是現在你把累進等級跟勞作金可使用數的比例掛勾，這個應該好好去做一個檢討。你說3,000元，那現在最高的是多少？我們以北監來看好了，現在最高的一個月差不多多少？"],["周署長輝煌：按照我們的數據顯示，北監平均每個月大概是749塊。"],["莊委員瑞雄：749塊，跟你說的3,000元差很多，你說北監平均是七百多少？"],["周署長輝煌：749塊。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你說的是平均，最高的差不多是多少？你那個是平均值啊！"],["周署長輝煌：我們沒有列最高的，我們有兩個數據，一個數據是一年的勞作金收入是七千四百多萬，平均下來就是749元。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！你是用七千多萬去除以總人數，我現在想知道的是，我當然很清楚，譬如他要進階到二級，他要關了越久以後比較有機會去做到更好報酬的工作，剛進去的人哪有機會讓他賺到這些勞作金？但是我必須要講，那個差距過大，比如說我到臺東的時候都會問，你一個月的作業金是多少？你知不知道是多少？讓你猜可以出來做的最低是多少？我問的都沒有超過100塊，最低只有八十幾塊而已、88塊而已。我們說要讓他復歸這個社會，但是我們從他領了多少勞作金就可以看得出來他在裡面做什麼工作，比較好的像麵包烘焙、畫圖，有的沒的，那些到最後都修身養性，被關得很乖了，才可以拿到比較高的分數。當然那個叫結果，但是整體來看，我們怎麼樣把勞作金去做一個制度的改善？畢竟勞作金是國家跟社會如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一，如果你把這個勞動與勞作金當成是要讓他復歸社會的處遇，而不是單純的懲罰跟規訓的話，那你的作法可能會有所不同，我不知道署長你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們機關也希望勞作金能夠提高，所以我們有一個評價會議，這個評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部勞動力發展署（它對廠商比較了解）一起開會，廠商也一起過來，當然基於廠商希望壓低，而我們希望提高，所以就是折衷。問題是，剛剛委員有提到麵包烘焙，甚至於有的是醬油工，那個就很高，那個平均大概1萬塊以上，但是我們一般的勞作金沒有那麼高，這確實是這樣，包括委託作業的項目，比如說有些老人工場，他只能折紙蓮花，那個就少了，但是他如果分配到所謂的焊接工場、車床的，那個就會比較高，因為它有一點技術，所以可能跟委託作業的項目也是有點關係，但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來也是一個問題……"],["莊委員瑞雄：技術低的，當然它的勞作金一定低啊！所以要看你們去招什麼廠商進來，你們招那個折蓮花的，真的只是在消磨時間而已，不是說那個不對啦，有時候讓受刑人在裡面有工作可以做，對他心情的穩定也不是壞事，但是那個產生的勞作金都很低啊！"],["周署長輝煌：比如我們會找一些提袋、外銷的，那個算件數的錢也是不錯，我們儘量來找這種項目的，但是也跟景氣有關係，包括像在疫情期間，再怎麼找也是很難啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：No！署長，你這樣講就失去你的專業了，像這種技術高的，到最後一定是累進處遇的級數已經又變更高了，難道不是這樣說嗎？一定是這樣啊！比如技術含量比較高的、勞作金比較高的工作，一定是到累進處遇比較高，我看至少是到二級以上，不然他怎麼去拿到那麼高的勞作金？"],["周署長輝煌：委員是覺得累進處遇的級數跟委託作業的項目有關係？"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得有關係，當然那產生的是一個結果，剛進去的……"],["周署長輝煌：這個應該沒有關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我認為會喔！你好好去做一個思考，畢竟這個你更專業啦！我是認為，受刑人是被社會排除在外的非國民，是這樣子嗎？這是一個問號，還是你把他當成遲早要回歸社會的一個共同體？我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋，憲法法庭也好或者國外的法制，你看連德國聯邦憲法法院也提到，立法者必須法律明確再社會化的概念。講這一些臺灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去，但是你們叫做矯正機關，所以這個制度如何去做一個改進，我覺得還是有必要。我再強調一次，案件發生到偵查、到審判，這個社會都是浮動的，判決確定以後，隨著時間過去，我們期待的是這個被法院判決的受刑人，除非他已經被判死刑，跟社會永久隔離了，否則他就是穿著囚衣的國民，他總是要復歸到這個社會，我們所有的矯正就是依照這樣的概念在運作，再去做逐步的修正，所以我們去看，如果做到讓那些受刑人說，我被你關到最後連看病也看不起，要去欠帳，還要讓人家來矯正署跟我要錢，對醫院來說它有它的思考，但對受刑人來講的話，這個到底符不符合基本國民人性尊嚴的部分，我倒認為政府可以多出點力啦！"],["周署長輝煌：是，報告委員，我可以補充一句話嗎？剛剛委員有提到，您認為那些作業是不是跟累進處遇有關係，如果從精神來看，它確實是跟累進處遇沒有關係，但是它會跟殘刑有關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：會，一定會。"],["周署長輝煌：因為有一些要出師，比如說他要去學手拉胚也好、麵包也好，一定要3個月或6個月才有辦法出師，所以我們會有一個甄選，就是受刑人的殘刑一定要有3個月或6個月以上，才能來參加，但不會限制一定要什麼級數或累進處遇達到幾級等，沒有，我們是用殘刑來篩選。"],["黃次長世杰：剛才委員所說的，誠如我們今天報告提及的，就是有關累進處遇制度的這個條例事實上是要廢止的，然後我們會在監獄行刑法中修一些條文，未來大部分細節性規定，也會用法規命令訂定。委員今天所提示的，包含簡報裡面所記載的，我們回去都會納入未來我們研議改善的意見來參考。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！因為各級別的差別待遇，或者整個現行責任分數跟成績分數，你們自己都很清楚，這些本來就到了必須一併研議如何再做修正的時候，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們都會檢討。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：謝謝。我先作一個會議程序的宣告：稍後請吳思瑤委員詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請沈發惠委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_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在座的每一位都有這個問題啊 早晚而已嘛我們也是在解決我們本身的問題耶沒有錯 而且每個人狀況不一樣對 所以我是要了解的是當我們在解決這個問題的時候你們目前提出的方法有沒有辦法確實的解決我們這樣問題嘛"},{"start":149.958,"end":164.213,"text":"我看到了你們所謂的你們現在著重的就是補助大眾運輸的補貼但是你真正的政府要怎麼樣解決這個政策其實我們我其實為什麼會在經濟委員會召開這個問題"},{"start":167.637,"end":189.567,"text":"就是你們現在政府要發展AI嘛你的AI要整體發展你一定要有辦法應用嘛是不是你能夠應用到智慧交通我那天問國發會主委啊我說智慧交通是不是你負責他說不是啊是那個國科會所以我今天才請國科會來啊國科會的書副主委你要不要來說明一下請國科會的書副主委"},{"start":197.259,"end":226.144,"text":"是 跟趙偉還有主席報告一下相關新AI十大建設的部分有關智慧生活圈裡面是有這一項但是我們現在在相關計畫裡面以大南方新矽谷為例主要是希望推動把建立建起來把相關的應用帶進來所以不管是在智慧交通 智慧餐飲甚至是智慧運輸以及整個的智慧照護的部分都可以來發展這個部分"},{"start":227.156,"end":250.312,"text":"所以還是在試辦計畫嘛 是不是 還是在試辦計畫嘛那怎麼樣子可以大規模的推廣還有未來我們國家要推廣的方向是怎麼樣子的其實我剛才在聽所有委員的詢答的時候我就想到了啊 政府的政策有沒有定啊"},{"start":251.172,"end":258.756,"text":"我們在解決我們長者用車需求的時候第一個我們有公共運輸系統"},{"start":260.29,"end":278.815,"text":"我們有什麼未來現在在很多國家大家在推動的是不是要用自駕車的方式或者我們現在目前的交通部的法規有沒有辦法來讓我們的自駕車能夠馬上上路以及"},{"start":284.597,"end":295.035,"text":"我那天去了找我們的車車中心我們看到了車車中心目前在發展的半自駕的公共運輸系統他就是讓"},{"start":298.86,"end":324.701,"text":"運具上面有駕駛但是我們未來交通部有沒有辦法延長像這樣子智慧運具半自動駕駛的公共運輸系統我們駕駛的駕駛年限因為在配合智慧的這樣的輔助系統之後他們可不可以延長"},{"start":326.062,"end":354.929,"text":"我們公共運輸系統駕駛的駕駛年限因為其實我們看到在駕駛的這個什麼在一些歐美國家的相關的就是自動駕駛的脫離率來講其實都已經達到了就是很高啊我看到是好像是多少公里我們那個我們次長你有沒有研究"},{"start":356.98,"end":361.579,"text":"市長你有沒有研究?我有研究,你有沒有研究?報告委員不好意思,這一塊我沒有了解"},{"start":362.045,"end":390.056,"text":"我看到了vamo vamo就是googlegoogle的那個他發展的那個那個計程車他的脫離率是兩萬七千八百七十公里代表了你駕駛了兩萬七千八百七十公里以後你才需要人的輔助那當你這樣的時候我們政府單位你有沒有去研究"},{"start":391.496,"end":415.146,"text":"當我們導入相關的這樣子的一個半自動的駕駛的時候能不能夠延長公共運輸系統駕駛的年限包委員您提的其實是重點提供智慧運輸或自駕車本身好幾個面向可以第一個就是剛剛我們其他委員有提到這個人力不足"},{"start":415.706,"end":438.815,"text":"然後它的操作過老甚至有很多問題它沒有辦法依照它的駕駛過程譬如說PR駕駛這一類都可以透過自駕車透過智慧運輸的協助讓駕駛用更低的精力更少的注意力去完成它的任務所以它就可以撐更久的時間所以目前像很多國家有的駕駛已經延長到68我們計程車也可以延長所以這一類的議題"},{"start":443.757,"end":466.676,"text":"都是可以降低驾驶者的需求跟他的劳动力的压力那第二个呢也可以提高他的政治能力降低对路面行人的危害以及对危险驾驶的避让所以这一块我们认为一定ADAS或者是自驾车的导入能够更快导入公共运输一定可以提供更好的这个服务能量"},{"start":467.296,"end":494.63,"text":"所以你也認為說那你們到底政府的政策有沒有我們現在的任務就是全力用計畫來協助這個沙盒實驗沙盒實驗裡面讓這些業者在裡面排除既有法規的限制把他的能力發揮出來然後我們根據沙盒實驗的結果回饋到我們的修法過程所以現在我們已經委託車安中心BSCC就沙盒實驗的過程有哪些議題"},{"start":495.971,"end":516.526,"text":"納入我們法規的調和跟修正所以這是同步在作業所以一旦車子能夠做得越快越好我們就可以馬上修正法規來調整好那其實上次我們在淘機已經試過讓公園園的9人8完全用50公里的時速自動駕駛然後自動做merging就是匯流跟分流"},{"start":517.186,"end":544.426,"text":"所以目前九人巴士已经有这样的能力已经实验完成那只是说它要落地的过程它的车子要能够量产商业化符合既有的法规所以这些过程我们还要再处理那这个部分你们进行了如何我刚跟你报告大概两年多前已经有工业院的这个自驾九人巴已经上路了那目前大客车的部分还在研发试验中尤其是我们有个计划在淡水淡海新市镇"},{"start":545.126,"end":567.669,"text":"那這一類的成熟度越高我們就能夠導入那如果像我們我們彰化呢我們彰化市呢我們彰化市也是一個就是小型的一個繁華的一個城市嘛那對於公共運輸的這個那能不能做因為你們都是在空曠的地區嘛我們一定要考驗其實我那天去車車中心郭部長是不是請你"},{"start":568.61,"end":594.942,"text":"也順便說一下你們到底目前國家發展的方向是什麼嗎你們一定要給業者給民眾有一個確切的發展方向嗎到底是不是是公共運輸系統還是無人就是自駕車的系統這要給所有的業者以及民眾有一個遵循的方向也可以解決我們所有人的需求問題啊"},{"start":595.902,"end":612.002,"text":"所以因为这样子所以才会利用这个沙盒的这个计划来推动我想这个是牵扯到很多的一个部门那我想基于安全基于整个社会的安全我想我们是这个第一个考虑所以需要一点时间请委员能够了解"},{"start":612.162,"end":626.14,"text":"法規法令啊是不是交通部的法規法令要怎麼共同的合作啊對這個就是需要去等到這個計畫實驗成功以後啊那麼再來這個討論這個法規法令"},{"start":627.261,"end":648.97,"text":"我們現在是要解決這整體的需要這是不管是我們現在或者是未來這是非常重要的需求因為畢竟我們社會就是邁向這樣子的一個社會的趨勢那因為這個整個計畫還沒有完成之前就修法可能會比較危險一點那什麼時候計畫可以完成什麼時候計畫可以完成"},{"start":653.243,"end":671.669,"text":"什麼時候可以計劃完成?董委員我說明一下齁那目前我們有大概有18個自駕案在沙盒試驗那目前比較成功最成功的就是在台積電廠區他在14廠跟18廠之間去做這個人員的運輸啦齁他累計的大概5萬多公里啦齁那所以這個是一個所以"},{"start":673.069,"end":689.142,"text":"那我們跟交通部配合是在這樣的數據的收集過程中那交通部也應用在這個時間內也在法規上也訂定了這個指引那所以因為這個是針對安全的部分那我們會慢慢的推進郭部長你回答交通部是不是太落後"},{"start":690.271,"end":711.512,"text":"也沒有啦 交通部是不是太落後我們這個交通部長坐我旁邊的啦會不會太落後 有沒有跟上科技的腳步我們說要發展AI 你如果AI的應用都沒有發展的情況下怎麼樣提高AI的需求"},{"start":712.372,"end":729.748,"text":"我想我們還是基於安全安全第一啦我當然就要安全第一然後這個成功以後才可以來修法在沒有成功之前我想我們還是要盡量把這個這個安全的這個因素考慮進來以後然後快速的讓它能夠成功這樣"},{"start":731.29,"end":757.668,"text":"對我當然認為安全一定是唯一的就是最重要的事情因為我們現在可以用AI以後就會速度比較快一點對但是我們要提高AI的需求的時候我們就要相對的要發展AI的應用那我們在發展AI的應用的時候是不是應該對於我們現在目前切身需要解決的問題你們加速進行是不是我們會加速進行好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":761.358,"end":761.378,"text":"謝謝鳳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時23分）謝謝主席，我想要先請交通部林次長。"],["主席：請交通部林次長。"],["林次長國顯：召委早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：次長早。我想要知道，目前交通部研議限制高齡長者上路，希望他們可以轉乘大眾運輸系統，我今天也看到交通部對於搭乘大眾運輸系統的補貼，但我想要了解的是，對於雙北、六都公共運輸系統非常便捷的地方，我們有可能藉由對搭乘大眾運輸系統的補貼來轉移他們駕駛的需求，但是六都以外呢？像我們中南部，我們的公共運輸不發達的情況下，即便對大眾運輸系統補貼，也沒有辦法移轉。我看到你提到了相關的規劃，你有幸福巴士、幸福小黃等等，但是有沒有辦法整個轉移他們的大眾運輸的需求，有沒有辦法？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我先跟您報告，交通部推動高齡駕照的管理並不是要限制高齡者的使用……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道。"],["林次長國顯：目前的做法是75歲以上要再做認知跟體格檢查，確認他安全，有認知能力，沒有其他的問題，避免造成他自己跟周邊行人的危害，所以這一塊是要確認而已，並不是要限制他使用，好不好？第二個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道、我知道，好，確認。我知道我們沒有歧視的問題，因為我們每一個人都會變老，在座的每一位都會面臨這個問題，早晚而已嘛……"],["林次長國顯：對、對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們也是在解決我們本身的問題耶，是不是？"],["林次長國顯：沒有錯，而且每個人的狀況不一樣……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，所以……"],["林次長國顯：所以要確認一下。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我要了解的是，當我們在解決這個問題的時候，你們目前提出的方法有沒有辦法確實解決這樣問題嘛。我看到了你們現在著重的就是對大眾運輸的補貼，但是政府要怎麼樣真正的解決這個政策，我為什麼會在經濟委員會召開這個議題，就是現在政府要發展AI嘛，你的AI要整體發展，你一定要有辦法應用嘛，是不是？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要能夠應用到智慧交通，我那天問國發會主委說智慧交通是不是你負責，他說不是，是國科會，所以我今天才請國科會來。","國科會蘇副主委，你要不要來說明一下？"],["主席：請國科會蘇副主委。"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是。跟召委還有主席報告一下，新AI十大建設的部分，有關智慧生活圈裡面是有這一項，但是我們現在在相關計畫裡面，以大南方新矽谷為例，主要是希望推動把系統建立起來，把相關的應用帶進來，所以不管是在智慧交通、智慧餐飲、甚至是智慧運輸以及整個智慧照護的部分，都可以來發展這個部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以還是在試辦計畫嘛，是不是？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是。因為……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是在試辦計畫嘛。"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那怎麼樣可以大規模的推廣，還有未來我們國家要推廣的方向是怎麼樣的？其實我剛才在聽所有委員詢答的時候，我就想到了，政府的政策有沒有定？我們在解決長者用車需求的時候，第一個，我們有公共運輸系統，我們有什麼？現在很多國家在推動的，是不是要用自駕車的方式，或者目前交通部的法規有沒有辦法讓我們的自駕車能夠馬上上路？我那天去了車測中心，我們看到了車測中心目前在發展的半自駕公共運輸系統，就是讓運具上面有駕駛，但是我們未來交通部有沒有辦法延長，像這樣子智慧運具半自動駕駛的公共運輸系統駕駛的駕駛年限？在配合智慧輔助系統之後，可不可以延長公共運輸系統駕駛的駕駛年限，因為其實我們看到在一些歐美國家，相關的半自動或自動駕駛的脫離率來講，其實都已經很高了，但是多少公里，次長你有沒有研究？次長，你有沒有研究，我有研究，你有沒有研究？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，不好意思，這一塊我沒有了解。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我看到了Waymo，就是Google發展的自駕計程車，它的脫離率是2萬7,870公里，代表駕駛了2萬7,870公里以後才需要人的輔助，像這樣我們政府單位有沒有去研究，當我們導入這樣子半自動駕駛系統的時候，能不能夠延長公共運輸系統駕駛的年限？"],["林次長國顯：是。報告委員，您提的其實是重點，提供智慧運輸或是自駕車本身有好幾個面向，第一個就是剛剛其他委員也有提到的人力不足、操作過勞，甚至有很多問題，譬如說疲勞駕駛，他沒有辦法依照他的駕駛過程……這類都可以透過自駕車、透過智慧運輸的協助，讓駕駛用更低的精力、更少的注意力去完成任務，他就可以撐更久的時間。目前很多國家有的駕駛已經延長到68歲，我們計程車也可以延長，所以這類的議題都是可以降低駕駛者的需求跟他的勞動力的壓力。第二個，可以提高偵知能力，降低對路面行人的危害，以及對危險駕駛的避讓。所以這塊我們認為ADAS或是自駕車能夠更快導入公共運輸，一定可以提供更好的服務能量。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你也認為……"],["林次長國顯：認同。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那到底政府的政策有沒有訂？"],["林次長國顯：我們現在的任務就是用計畫來全力協助沙盒實驗，讓這些業者在沙盒實驗裡面排除既有法規的限制，把能力發揮出來，然後我們根據沙盒實驗的結果，回饋到修法過程，所以現在已經委託車安中心（VSCC）就沙盒實驗的過程有哪些議題，納入法規的調和跟修正，這是同步在作業，一旦車子能夠做得越快越好，我們就可以馬上修正法規來調整。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["林次長國顯：其實上次我們在桃機已經試過讓工研院的9人巴士完全用50公里的時速自動駕駛，然後自動做merging，就是匯流跟分流，所以目前9人巴士已經有這樣的能力，已經實驗完成，只是說落地過程，車子要能夠量產商業化符合既有法規，這些過程我們還要再處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個部分你們進行得如何？"],["林次長國顯：我剛剛跟您報告，大概2年多前，已經有工研院的自駕9人巴士上路，目前大客車的部分還在研發試驗中，尤其我們有個計畫在淡水淡海新市鎮，這一類的成熟度越高，我們就能夠導入。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果像我們彰化市呢？我們彰化市也是一個小型的繁華城市，對於公共運輸的……能不能做？因為你們都是在空曠的地區。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們一定要考驗……我們那天去車測中心，郭部長，是不是也順便請你說一下，到底目前國家發展的方向是什麼？你們一定要給業者、民眾有確切的發展方向，到底是公共運輸系統，還是無人自駕車系統？要給所有的業者以及民眾有一個遵循的方向，也可以解決我們所有人的需求問題。"],["郭部長智輝：所以因為這樣子，才會利用沙盒的計畫來推動，這個牽扯到很多部門，基於安全，基於整個社會的安全，我想這個是第一個考慮啦，所以需要一點時間，請委員能夠了解。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那法規、法令啊，是不是？交通部的法規、法令要怎麼共同地合作啊？"],["郭部長智輝：對，這個需要等到計畫實驗成功以後，再來討論法規、法令的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們現在是要解決這整體的需要，不管是現在或者是未來，這是非常重要的需求，因為畢竟我們社會就是邁向這樣子的趨勢。"],["郭部長智輝：是。因為整個計畫還沒有完成之前就修法，可能會比較危險一點。"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候計畫可以完成？"],["郭司長肇中：跟委員說明一下，目前我們大概有18個自駕案在沙盒試驗，目前最成功的是在台積電廠區，在14廠跟18廠之間做人員的運輸，累積了大概五萬多公里，我們跟交通部配合在這樣的數據蒐集過程中，交通部也應用在這個時間內在法規上訂定了指引，這就是針對安全的部分，我們會慢慢地推進。"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭部長你回答，交通部是不是太落後？"],["郭部長智輝：也沒有啦，我們都與時俱進。"],["謝委員衣鳯：交通部是不是太落後？林司長你回答。"],["郭部長智輝：交通部長坐我旁邊的啦，所以我們都馬上……"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會太落後？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有跟上科技的腳步？我們說要發展AI，如果AI的應用都沒有發展的情況下，怎麼樣提高AI的需求，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們還是基於安全，安全第一。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我當然知道安全第一。"],["郭部長智輝：成功了以後才可以來修法，在沒有成功之前，我們還是要儘量把安全的因素考慮進來，然後快速地讓它能夠成功。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我當然認為安全一定是唯一最重要的事情，但是……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在借用AI以後，就會速度比較快一點。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我們要提高AI需求的時候就要相對地發展AI的應用，在發展AI應用的時候，你們是不是應該對於目前切身需要解決的問題加速進行？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會加速進行。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：現在請呂玉玲詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","李坤城","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","葉元之","謝龍介","邱鎮軍","張嘉郡","徐欣瑩","邱議瑩","翁曉玲"],"page_start":337,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、交通部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「因應\n高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146401_00007"}}},{"id":"162769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a67f38c050061154eb9483b76f331b600b1c1f5e093a47950ab3a0f130147b6495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:24:24 - 10:35:42","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T10:24:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T10:35:42+08:00","duration":678,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.84846875,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.278468750000002,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.745968750000003,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.74159375,"end":26.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.37346875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.13221875,"end":53.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.234718750000006,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.268468750000004,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.30221875,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.415968750000005,"end":47.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.23784375,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.99784375,"end":102.56346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.56346875000001,"end":130.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.88534375,"end":122.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.42409375,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.15534375000001,"end":201.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.66159375,"end":150.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.33284375000002,"end":201.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.36659375000002,"end":201.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.48471875,"end":203.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.79659375,"end":219.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.62534375,"end":219.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.69284375,"end":230.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.17221875,"end":275.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.59971875,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.72971875,"end":302.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.21596875,"end":309.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.83159375,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.36659375,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.70409375,"end":336.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.17534375,"end":318.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.25909375000003,"end":322.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.71409375,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.86971875,"end":330.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.06284375,"end":370.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.23471875,"end":371.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.78721875,"end":379.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.70159375000003,"end":426.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.79971875,"end":446.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.84721875,"end":454.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.86284375,"end":464.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.05534375,"end":469.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.76346875,"end":470.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.18534375,"end":470.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.23596875000004,"end":485.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.77409375,"end":482.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.92596875000004,"end":483.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.71034375000005,"end":488.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.96721875000003,"end":491.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.39721875000004,"end":535.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.76596875,"end":564.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.21284375,"end":538.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.88784375,"e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我們有請部長有請部長"},{"start":16.603,"end":36.76,"text":"今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張"},{"start":38.061,"end":67.378,"text":"但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人"},{"start":67.978,"end":87.432,"text":"他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14%"},{"start":88.733,"end":100.431,"text":"它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個"},{"start":101.568,"end":124.438,"text":"會不會要怎麼樣來應應好謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都來努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意希望想要在家裡就好好的在這裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實"},{"start":131.241,"end":148.487,"text":"因為我過去在東京大學就在做論文就是做這一方面如果你在問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強"},{"start":149.227,"end":167.469,"text":"是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員他的人力可不可以增加的部分"},{"start":168.13,"end":195.578,"text":"那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人"},{"start":196.258,"end":218.381,"text":"就沒有人就不會開出量了所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構謝委員其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給它更多的量能跟更努力啦那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們回答"},{"start":220.283,"end":232.07,"text":"人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想曾路委員剛剛所說的這張圖我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間因為要輪班那老實說"},{"start":236.853,"end":249.207,"text":"我們本國的居福源老說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南 新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生"},{"start":251.61,"end":280.428,"text":"不是 引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得Permanent State就是那個永久居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好 我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少"},{"start":280.768,"end":287.351,"text":"報告委員我們在去年已經在福音科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個鴻光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個"},{"start":309.503,"end":324.349,"text":"對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓"},{"start":331.352,"end":348.438,"text":"你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的"},{"start":349.899,"end":366.455,"text":"這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已"},{"start":370.359,"end":391.589,"text":"比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的"},{"start":391.969,"end":419.086,"text":"因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布"},{"start":419.673,"end":445.281,"text":"因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家無論是社區無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源"},{"start":448.034,"end":462.314,"text":"我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一"},{"start":463.055,"end":487.785,"text":"那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點"},{"start":489.005,"end":510.543,"text":"你不曉得理事有沒有要補充 簡單補充一下我那個三點補充 第一個就是說就是供給 我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分 現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬 第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是它的品質提升包括它感染管控 還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助 來強化"},{"start":513.425,"end":530.569,"text":"他們的這個造福源他們的這個留任意願那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造福源他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助"},{"start":534.93,"end":564.274,"text":"我是希望你们这一块要持续去强化然后最后我要讲的就是如果你还3.0然后你很多还要继续往上加服务还要增加然后你的支持要增加我必须坦白告诉卫福部你的钱是不够的你在114年你的基金来源跟基金用途其实已经呈现了短促的一个情况那其实很多专家学者已经预估过以台湾现在我们的高龄化的情况"},{"start":565.014,"end":589.936,"text":"你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降"},{"start":590.626,"end":617.7,"text":"那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情"},{"start":619.881,"end":622.582,"text":"我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有"},{"start":641.638,"end":662.317,"text":"基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系"},{"start":666.46,"end":674.376,"text":"我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來演繹怎麼做是最好的 好不好好的 好的好 謝謝 石穗文好 謝謝王穗文 謝謝部長 次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時24分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。今天要跟你討論有關我們已經邁向超高齡社會，現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題。根據長期照顧產學媒合平臺統計，現在有一千七百多家長照機構提供住宿型服務，床數大概是十萬多張，但還是短缺1萬3,000張床，這是他們的統計提出的，甚至有一些好一點的要排隊排很久。針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的問題，我要就教部長，你可以看到家庭照顧者關懷總會在113年底也做了一個調查，未來老人不見得都希望由家人或親友照顧，在他的希望、理想型，你看一下這個圖表，藍色的部分顯示未來有三成的老人家希望進到住宿型機構，如果機構是好的話。相較於現在實際入住比例14%，增加了將近16%，所以未來選擇機構的比例可能更高，量能可能要更多。針對不足的部分，衛福部要怎麼樣來因應？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教。人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情，至於做不到的，我們一定都來努力。謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料，我們都會密切注意，想要在家裡被照顧的，就好好在家裡被照顧；如果想在機構……這裡面當然有更多複雜的因素。因為我過去在東京大學寫的論文就是這方面，如果再問一下他真正的心願，到底是要在家裡或在機構，人力夠的話，他們的答案就不一樣，所以這個部分未來我們會更精細來了解。但是、anyway，不管是在家裡或機構，都要加強。"],["王委員育敏：是，我今天跟你討論的就是現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟困境，除了未來我們已經可以預見需求會增加之外，另外一個就是在機構裡面的工作人員，人力可不可以增加的部分。如果看這6年來的統計，機構裡面的工作人員人數都沒有成長，甚至你看112年到113年還微幅下降，所以這一些住宿型機構缺工的問題，其實也是現在他們在現場所看到的。如果未來還希望它提高量能，卻根本就沒有人，而沒有人就不會開出量，所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做，好去協助這些機構？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的，長照3.0也會針對機構式的照護給更多的量能跟努力。至於現在怎麼努力，請呂次長幫我回答具體的部分。"],["王委員育敏：好，人力的部分，你要怎麼去補？"],["呂次長建德：誠如委員剛剛所說的這張圖，我們現在的作法是會引進外籍中階勞動力。最主要就是在機構，特別是夜間因為要輪班，老實說，本國居服員對這個部分大家比較不喜歡，所以夜間的部分我們目前就是從國外，其實就是從越南、印尼等新南向國家引進18歲以上的人來這邊念二技，之後如果在臺灣能夠服務6年以上，甚至還可以取得permanent stay，即永久居留權，讓他們有一個誘因，這是第一點。另外，第二點就是中階勞動力的薪資也比一般來得更高一點，我們希望能夠用這個部分對於機構……"],["王委員育敏：這部分你們有沒有預估過？你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們去年已經在輔英科技大學先設了……本來是要開兩班，現在是一班。今年我們在慈濟、弘光等等也新開了，我們未來會強化，還有透過跟外交部、勞動部合作，趕快從新南向國家……"],["王委員育敏：我希望這一塊你們還是要持續改善。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["王委員育敏：以你剛剛講的學校開一班、兩班，了不起就100個，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，所以……"],["王委員育敏：100個人再扣掉有意願從事的，就剩幾十個。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：幾十個恐怕跟未來人力需求的落差還是很大的。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：這一塊我是提早預警，希望你們要儘早準備，光是你們現在設定這樣的方案，恐怕對未來量能的需求還是不足的。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員提醒。"],["王委員育敏：接下來，我要讓你們看到的是，現在你們說已經升級到長照3.0，到底挹注在機構方面的資源，你們有沒有真的3.0，有沒有進一步去提升？因為其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力在做社區式的、居家式的，但是在機構式這一方面，你們過去一直都比較是交給機構自行來營運負責，從你的預算分配可以看得到，你看114年在住宿型機構的資源布建計畫，只占你總體經費的4.389%而已，比例其實非常低，你後來有增加住宿型機構每個月補助1萬，這個部分占了11.593%。所以就整體來看，像114年七百多億當中，你一年挹注在這種住宿型機構的資源布建，坦白講在比例上是偏低的，因為你政策的關係，但是我剛剛前面已經講了，其實有些老人家的選擇不見得都是在家裡，他未來希望入住到機構，你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質，補充它的人力，讓它有足夠的量能，我覺得這就是整個衛福部應該要看到未來的趨勢，整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布，因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人在外面開會，他們就說政府對他們其實是沒有補助的，就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙，所以未來在你的政策裡面，這個部分是不是也應該適時做一些調整，無論是居家，無論是社區，無論是住宿型的機構，衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源。"],["邱部長泰源：我非常同意委員的指導，尤其是我們現在特別在機構式的部分，一直在加強，也是長照3.0的重點之一。過去幾年來，的確我們也無可否認，在居家、在社區方面先深耕，接下來希望啟動社區的資源來互相資助，但是總是需要機構這個部分，最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強，這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["邱部長泰源：不曉得呂次長有沒有要補充，簡單補充一下。"],["呂次長建德：我三點補充，現在機構的部分，其實主要是供給面跟需求面，第一個，需求面的部分，目前就誠如委員剛剛說的，一個月1萬。第二個，供給面的部分，其實我們現在對於機構，主要是它的品質提升，包括它的感染管控，還有如果久任的話，我們長照基金這邊也會來補助，強化他們照服員的留任意願。對於機構的部分，另外還有關於智慧輔具補助的部分，目前在3.0這邊也都會來推動，因為其實你把輔具引進之後，對於照服員的單位生產力還有品質，也都會有很大的幫助，以上，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，我是希望你們這一塊要持續去強化。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["王委員育敏：最後我要講的就是，如果3.0你有很多服務還要繼續往上加，你的支持也要增加，我必須坦白告訴衛福部，你的錢是不夠的，你114年的基金來源跟基金用途，其實已經呈現了短絀的情況。很多專家學者已經預估過，以臺灣現在高齡化的情況，長照基金每年的支出規模其實是1,000億，你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話，讓大家都有感，覺得有受到支持跟幫助，其實應該是1,000億，但是你可以看到現在你所有長照的基金來源，它上上下下，其實大概都達不到千億的規模，114年還突然大幅下降，今年看起來，房地產的狀況也不會很好，政府的打房有某部分的成效，所以你的基金將來會不足以支應你的開支，對於這一塊，我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系，除了長照基金之外，未來保險到底要不要開辦、要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤，這一件事情，我覺得你們不要把話說死了，說絕對不開辦保險，我覺得也滿危險的，因為未來的挑戰很大，如果日本做不到，我很難想像臺灣，我們為什麼可以做得到？所以這一塊，我覺得你們現在是量入為出，就是有在控經費的支出，因為也知道經費、基金來源也不是水龍頭一打開，源源不絕，所以現在以量入為出的模式，我看到的是還有一些服務還沒有到位，一些該補助的其實還沒有，所以這一塊我請部長回去之後，你們還是要好好的研議，這個長照議題，我們以後都會遇到，所以在這個狀況底下，怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系，我覺得這要拋開一些框架，真的好好來研議怎麼做是最好的，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉代）：謝謝王育敏委員、謝謝部長及次長。","接續請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a8c3566d968c6b3b6b9483b76f331b600b1c1f5e093a479501db97a0ba832a5a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:12:18 - 10:24:17","影片長度":"00:11:59","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T10:12:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T10:24:17+08:00","duration":719,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.01346875,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.527843750000001,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.029093750000001,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.969718750000002,"end":23.672843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.044093750000002,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.38096875,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.199093750000003,"end":31.772843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.25784375,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.67534375,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.97471875,"end":37.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.510343750000004,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.033468750000004,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.712218750000005,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.93534375,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.95221875,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.164718750000006,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.21909375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.89784375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.52596875,"end":76.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.77846875,"end":77.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.22971875,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.36471875000001,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.06909375000001,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.96346875,"end":80.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.99721875,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":81.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.38096875000001,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.40159375,"end":88.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.36721875,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.66221875000001,"end":91.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.10096875,"end":95.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.54346875,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.02846875,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.06221875,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.07909375000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.54596875,"end":110.78159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.10221875,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.61596875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.03784375000001,"end":118.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.20659375000001,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.14284375000001,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.69096875000001,"end":127.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.94784375,"end":128.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.75784375,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.89659375000002,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.49721875,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.36159375,"end":174.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.43846875,"end":198.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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我們一樣請邱部長來 請部長委員好 部長好部長我請教一下我們衛福部2024年8月7日就已經預告身心障礙權益保障法部分條文修正草案這個部分了那現在召委排審怎麼沒有看到你們的版本呢"},{"start":33.3,"end":52.638,"text":"是卡在行政院嗎?有,在行政院審議已經這麼久了怎麼到現在沒有消息?行政院是在搞罷免沒有控審還是怎麼樣?沒有,因為我想這個法案我剛剛有跟邱委員報告,其實我在一兩年前"},{"start":53.786,"end":77.065,"text":"在當召委的時候也是一樣這樣的陣仗,有我們也請了我的身心障礙團體的代表,所以老師這樣子我現在就熱切的討論,還是很難達成一些共識什麼原因?可能有一些爭議的點需要再釐清,這樣才能夠對法案的所以現在是行政院在審還是你們在弄?主管機關是誰?不是你們嗎?"},{"start":78.406,"end":86.113,"text":"我們主管機關都是要形成懲定啊他有沒有叫你們再修有啊 已經來回了開過幾次會"},{"start":90.115,"end":116.316,"text":"這個請理事長包委員那個其實這個部分我想是因為修了十個月了你們來回幾次開了幾次其實這個因為那個知識體大啦因為也那個也是幾年都沒修嘛我們這個應該要用最嚴謹的標準來進行你去年公告會籍嘛然後到現在這個這麼久了你現在叫公民參與現在重修你現在公開了沒有你重修有公開嗎"},{"start":117.645,"end":126.957,"text":"程序我說你重修啊你在修這個部分你有公開嗎我們那個在送行政費錢我們都有那個那個現在不是退回來嗎現在不是還要再審議還要再協調嗎現在內容有提出來嗎"},{"start":131.036,"end":149.648,"text":"有啊 我們當然提給行政院那邊那現在目前就是說也廣泛在各界像委員今天有很多委員也提到像這個第五十條啦這一個生活有關於個人助理啦還有這一個是你們在寫嗎 有退回來你們寫嗎"},{"start":152.498,"end":178.078,"text":"沒有 我們現在就是會跟各界嘛跟各界來廣泛再來智商那我想這個裡面確實還有很多一些不同的意見那我想也要有必要跟大家來做最廣泛的一個智商我想這個委員我知道非常關心那我想大家也都非常非常希望能夠這個法能夠修得更好與時俱進所以我們現在目前這個部分沒有 我要提醒你們啦我們身心障礙團體要的是自立生活合理調整"},{"start":179.119,"end":197.894,"text":"那通用設計這個聲音障礙團體從2017年的CRPD第一次在國際審查就講到現在了這些不是今年才有的需求為什麼還要那麼久呢我們去年衛福部的八月的版本這三件核心訴求我看也沒有寫得非常清楚"},{"start":198.925,"end":214.577,"text":"那現在行政院現在說要大修我們是真的在修還是準備在拖延報告委員我們是真的在修我們現在目前裡面我想報告委員我們為了這個修法在從去年開始所以協調還沒結束就對了你們現在協調還沒結束"},{"start":218.28,"end":247.604,"text":"我們現在目前還要跟那個還要跟各界還要做那個廣泛的一個的一個諮商已經已經在已經在是卡在行政院還是就是做協調的部分我們現在目前都在跟跟社會各界說尋求最大可能的共識我想這個也是我想我知道委員對於這個部分非常關心那我們希望能夠修得更好因為這裡面確實像剛剛委員剛剛說的有關合理調整還有像有關反歧視還有像有關於這一個對啦你大修啊不是"},{"start":247.964,"end":264.691,"text":"要趕快不是不送案的理由如果行政院真的要大新我覺得他應該按照行政程序應該是提出修正意見表還有會診會議記錄回送主管機關修正嘛對不對是我們現在目前也確實就是有相關的程序都在進行當中"},{"start":265.931,"end":291.317,"text":"這十個月因為我感覺是空窗期讓人家覺得你們沒在動也沒有在送新的版本我們在行政院那邊有那個聲音障礙者權益保障法然後委員會然後其實也有各式各樣的一個公聽會還有我們其實我們也舉辦了很多很多的公民共識會議來跟各聲音障礙團體我也親自去那邊出席來廣泛爭取各方的意見然後其實自立生活人類協會他也來部裡面拜訪我兩次"},{"start":296.319,"end":317.515,"text":"今天審查的身心障礙權益保障法裡面有34個委員提案那其中大概我們就第53條我們跟幾位立委提案的不愛做乘坐對象的文字修正不愛做或改成優先席那我們衛福部當時是表示支持的對不對那其他的都要別的部門的意見"},{"start":318.315,"end":336.123,"text":"身心障礙者的權益不只是座位的問題啦社會主管機關我覺得你們不能應該都要別人來回答你們的角色是負責整合啦是負責整合不要變成首發單位好不好我想盡快啦好不好 查案什麼時候可以開始可以看到這個預告"},{"start":340.7,"end":368.432,"text":"原來的意思是整個法是不是整個法的話已經預告然後也送到行政院再審你們還在協商嘛對不對你協商的結果什麼時候出來這個部分我們當然會會盡快要多久一個月兩個月因為這個不愛做反而這個會比較有共識有共識的可以他不只是不愛做嘛對不對那我現在講的是這個法你什麼時候大概還要多久"},{"start":370.526,"end":377.616,"text":"才可以弄出來?一個月?兩個月?三個月?這個...可能我們會跟行政院盡量來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來..."},{"start":386.507,"end":406.602,"text":"我們把過去這段時間的努力寫報告給委員好了那部長我再請教80歲以上請外籍看護免巴士量表的這個部分勞動部洪森案部長說難度相當高要跨部會整合那我想請教部長需要衛福部配合的有哪些"},{"start":409.589,"end":421.592,"text":"非常感謝委員 其實跟委員報告我們為了這個事情 部長特別指定我跟勞動部的一位次長我們三位次長 我們到目前為止已經開了四次會議"},{"start":429.734,"end":452.766,"text":"我現在就講說他要你們配合的 要修正的朋友 主要大概就是說我們有關於有關於這一個巴士樑表他如果到時候他如果免評那可是這裡面可能還是有一些相關的一些部分我們會委託各地方政府他有一個整個照管中心照管中心來這邊來做這個協助他項目開了很多嘛 他配合的有哪些 他要你們配合的"},{"start":453.366,"end":477.492,"text":"我們這邊主要大概就是 那你完成了多少好了包委我們現在目前最主要就是說資訊系統的一個借接然後到時候就是說有的案件有案件進來的話我也這邊要非常感謝勞動部這邊他們這邊在人力的部分給我們我現在就是就責任就是說他現在你的部分我要問你說我們衛福部現在自己已經跟他該你們處理的你們完成了多少"},{"start":478.656,"end":493.005,"text":"我們現在目前就是已經根據這一個雙次長會議我們現在目前來督導然後勞動部就是有關於發展署這邊還有我們這邊因為7月底就要實施了所以我要問的是如果你們完成了所以衛福部就會在這個未來如果出問題當然責任就是在勞動部"},{"start":500.37,"end":515.085,"text":"對不對你們到時候不要互踢皮球我希望你們把你們自己該做的事情趕快完成當然當然把這個責任釐清不要說到時候是你們在你們在背這個黑鍋不會我們兩部都是大家都同一合作我想大家都一體都希望大家趕快合作因為時間也不多是沒錯"},{"start":517.327,"end":539.133,"text":"那另外最後一個我在請教部長這個2024年全台有大概4,062人自殺死亡那自殺重登十大死因的榜單那根據WHO跟台灣醫學研究資料每完成一次自殺背後平均大概有10到20次的自殺未遂所以也就是說這個"},{"start":539.873,"end":557.443,"text":"去推算去年台灣大概有6萬到8萬人次去做這個自殺的這個動作那這幾年都是慢慢的在增加那這麼龐大的潛在的高風險族群我們政府目前用什麼樣的方式追蹤或是輔導"},{"start":559.586,"end":587.257,"text":"我想早期發這個我剛剛有報告過這個自殺的方式必須要多元化那自殺之前基本上很有憂鬱的人都很多啦所以我們我們有沒有實時介入有沒有去關心我們推動的自殺防治計畫裡面這些都有在做那這幾個學會也很努力在進行那為什麼那今年是因為過去把COVID原來在裡面跳出實名以後"},{"start":588.017,"end":593.243,"text":"變成第11名的自殺我們現在不講排名但是他這個數字是確實存在的那為什麼我們的數字沒辦法往下降這才是重點不是他排名第幾名的問題"},{"start":605.4,"end":624.31,"text":"對 我想這個是整個不管是醫學界社會界的一個共同要努力的問題部長你接下來你認為面對這樣的數字一直攀高那你的態度是什麼我覺得這個要結合各部會各相關部會不管是從學校 職場還有社會對這個相關"},{"start":630.393,"end":651.474,"text":"憂鬱症方面的看待等等的整體來改善當然這是整體還有就是說早期的detect早期的真訪也很重要我們過去在10年前為什麼要退出其實我們在我們訓練很多自殺的守門員在譬如說在那個7-11只要有一個人進來現在也不是烤肉的季節"},{"start":652.515,"end":680.223,"text":"那個為什麼來買碳 這個對啦 這個我跟你講部長 當然會去自殺它當然有很多很多的原因那當然我們能夠把這個球接住當然是就能拯救一個家庭啦我們一定要接住每一個球所以我的意思是說政府之前做的這些東西顯然是不夠的顯然是不夠的或者是沒有落實那如果沒有落實我們怎麼樣讓它落實改進那麼如果做得不足"},{"start":680.703,"end":682.835,"text":"我們是不是要提出新的辦法來解決這個問題是的"},{"start":685.11,"end":709.714,"text":"這個如果是舊問題我們要提出更好的辦法新的問題我們要提出具體的一個辦法來解決前端的防禦跟新的心理衛生的輔導介入我覺得非常有必要啦當然我希望這個部裡面能夠認真看待這個事情非常非常認真然後呢盡快的把這個新的措施把它擬定這樣好不好好的沒問題謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":714.059,"end":717.115,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長文匯政經報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時12分）主席好，一樣請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我請教一下，衛福部2024年8月7日就已經預告身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案，現在召委排審怎麼沒有看到你們的版本？是卡在行政院嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：在行政院審議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經這麼久了，怎麼到現在還沒有消息？行政院是在搞罷免，沒有空審？還是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，因為我想這個法案，我剛剛有跟邱委員報告，其實一、兩年前我在當召委的時候，也是一樣這樣的陣仗，我們也邀請了身心障礙團體的代表、手語老師熱切地討論，但還是很難達成一些共識。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是什麼原因？"],["邱部長泰源：可能有一些爭議的點需要再釐清，這樣才能夠對法案的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在是行政院在審，還是你們在弄？主管機關是誰？不是你們嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們是主管機關，但是要行政院審定，都有在溝通。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他也沒叫你們再修？"],["邱部長泰源：有啊，已經來回……"],["邱委員鎮軍：開過幾次會？"],["邱部長泰源：請呂次長說明。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，其實這個部分我想是因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：修了10個月了，你們來回幾次？開了幾次會？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個因為茲事體大，也十幾年都沒修，應該要用最嚴謹的標準來進行，所以也跟……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你去年公告會議期嘛，然後到現在這麼久了，現在叫公民參與來重修，目前公開了沒？重修有公開嗎？"],["呂次長建德：程序？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我說重修，你在修這個部分有公開嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有啊，在送行政院前，都有法規的預告程序。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在不是退回來嗎？不是還要再協調嗎？"],["呂次長建德：也給我們報告先……"],["邱委員鎮軍：協調內容有提出來嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有啊，我們當然就提給行政院，目前就是廣泛跟各界……像今天有很多委員也提到第五十條，有關於個人助理還有這一個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在退回來，是你們在寫嗎？有退回來給你們寫嗎？"],["呂次長建德：沒有，現在就是跟各界來廣泛諮商，這裡面確實還有很多不同的意見，也有必要跟大家做最廣泛的諮商，這個部分委員非常關心，大家也都非常希望這個法能夠修得更好，與時俱進，所以我們目前這個部分……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我要提醒你們，身心障礙團體要的是自立生活、合理調整、通用設計。身心障礙團體從2017年的CRPD，在第一次國際審查就講到現在了，這些不是今年才有的需求，為什麼還要那麼久？去年衛福部8月的版本中關於這3件核心訴求，我看也沒有寫得非常清楚，行政院現在說要大修，是真的在修還是準備再拖延？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們是真的在修，為了這個修法，從去年開始……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以協調還沒結束就對了？"],["呂次長建德：跟各個身心障礙團體……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們現在協調還沒結束？"],["呂次長建德：我們目前還要跟各界做廣泛的諮商。"],["邱委員鎮軍：協調的部分是卡在行政院，還是……"],["呂次長建德：因為我們目前都在跟社會各界尋求最大可能的共識，我知道委員對於這個部分非常關心，我們希望能夠修得更好，因為這裡面確實像剛剛委員說的有關合理調整、有關反歧視還有像有關於這一個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！大修要趕快，不是作為不送案的理由，如果行政院真的要大修，我覺得應該按照程行政程序提出修正意見表，還有彙整會議紀錄，回送主管機關修正，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是，目前相關的程序確實都在進行當中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這10個月我感覺是空窗期，讓人家覺得你們沒在動，也沒有再送新的版本。"],["呂次長建德：我們在行政院那邊有身心障礙者權益保障法，在委員會有各式各樣的公聽會，另外也舉辦了很多的公民共識會議來跟各個身心障礙團體交流，我也親自出席來廣泛爭取各方的意見，自立生活協會的人員也來部裡面拜訪我兩次，這個都有紀錄可以提供給委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我舉個例子，今天審查的身心障礙者權益保障法有34個委員提案，其中就第五十三條我們跟幾位立委提案博愛座乘坐對象的文字修正，博愛座改成優先席，衛福部當時是表示支持的，對不對？其他的部分卻都要別的部門的意見，身心障礙者的權益不是只有座位的問題，身為主管機關，我覺得你們不應該都要別人來回答你們，你們的角色是負責整合，不要變成收發單位，好不好？我想儘快啦！好不好？所以草案什麼時候可以開始預告？"],["邱部長泰源：委員的意思是整個法，是不是？"],["邱委員鎮軍：修正後的。"],["邱部長泰源：整個法已經預告，也送到行政院審議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們還在協商，對不對？協商的結果，什麼時候出來？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們當然會儘快。"],["邱委員鎮軍：要多久？1個月？2個月？"],["邱部長泰源：因為博愛座這個會比較有共識。"],["邱委員鎮軍：它不只是博愛座嘛！對不對？這個法大概還要多久才可以弄出來？1個月？2個月？3個月？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們可能會跟行政院儘量溝通，因為這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那這樣啦！你預估的期程，兩個禮拜準備資料給我，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：把我們過去這段時間的努力，好好寫個報告給委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我再請教，有關80歲以上申請外籍看護免巴氏量表的部分，勞動部洪申翰部長說，難度相當高，要跨部會整合。請教部長，需要衛福部配合的有哪些部分？"],["邱部長泰源：請呂次長回答。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員。跟委員報告，部長為了這個事情，特別指定我跟勞動部的次長協商，到目前為止，已經開了4次會議，本部這邊……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在講的是他要你們配合修正的部分。"],["呂次長建德：主要大概有關於巴氏量表，如果到時候是免評，但可能還是有一些相關的部分，我們會委託各地方政府的照管中心來協助。"],["邱委員鎮軍：項目開了很多嗎？配合的有哪些？他要你們配合的大概有幾項？"],["呂次長建德：我們這邊主要就是照管中心……"],["邱委員鎮軍：說你完成多少好了，幾成？"],["呂次長建德：目前最主要就是資訊系統的介接，到時候有案件進來的話……我也非常感謝勞動部，人力的部分給我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在是就責任。我要問的是，現在該衛福部處理的，你們完成了多少？"],["呂次長建德：根據雙次長會議，現在由我們來督導，勞動部發展署還有我們的長照司……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為7月底就要實施了。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：7月底就要實施了，所以我要問的是……"],["呂次長建德：我們現在是緊鑼密鼓在做相關的工作。"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來如果出問題，當然責任就是在勞動部，對不對？你們到時候不要互踢皮球，我希望你們把自己該做的事情趕快完成，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：把這個責任釐清，不要到時候是你們在背這個黑鍋，可以嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不會，我們兩部都通力合作，大家都一體，都為民眾福利……"],["邱委員鎮軍：希望大家趕快合作，因為剩下的時間也不多。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後我再請教部長，2024年全臺大概有4,062人自殺死亡，自殺重登十大死因榜單。根據WHO跟臺灣醫學研究資料顯示，每完成一次自殺背後平均有10到20次的自殺未遂，也就是以這個去推算，去年臺灣大概有6萬到8萬人次自殺，這幾年都是慢慢的在增加。面對這麼龐大的潛在高風險族群，政府目前用什麼樣的方式追蹤或是輔導？"],["邱部長泰源：我剛剛有報告過，自殺防治必須多元化，在自殺之前，基本上有憂鬱的人很多，所以憂鬱症防治也很重要。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們有沒有實質介入？有沒有去關心？"],["邱部長泰源：當然在我們推動的自殺防治計畫裡面，這些都有在做，這幾個學會也很努力在進行……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼這個數字一直降不下來？"],["邱部長泰源：今年是因為過去原來在裡面的COVID-19跳出十名以外，變成第十一名的自殺……我們14年前是這樣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們現在不講排名，但這個數字是確實存在的，對吧？為什麼數字沒辦法往下降？這才是重點，不是排名第幾名的問題。"],["邱部長泰源：這個不管醫學界、社會各界要共同努力的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：面對這樣的數字一直攀高，你們的態度是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得這個要結合各相關部會，不管是從學校、職場，還有社會對憂鬱症方面的看待等等，整體來改善。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然這是整體，這不是……"],["邱部長泰源：還有就是早期的偵防（detect）也很重要，我們過去、在10年前為什麼會退出？其實我們訓練很多自殺守門員，譬如在7-11，只要有一個人進來，明明不是烤肉的季節，為什麼來買炭，這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然會自殺有很多原因，如果我們能夠把這個球接住就能拯救一個家庭，這是我們的態度。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定要接住每一個人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，所以我的意思是，政府之前做的這些東西顯然是不夠的或者沒有落實，如果是沒有落實，怎麼樣讓它落實改進；如果做得不足，是不是有要提出新的辦法來解決這個問題？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，如果是舊問題，我們要提出更好的辦法；新的問題，我們要提出具體的辦法來解決，所以我們來分析……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，前端的預防跟持續性的心理衛生輔導介入，我覺得非常有必要。我希望部裡能夠認真看待這個事情……"],["邱部長泰源：非常認真，這個是重要的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：然後儘快把新的措施擬定，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，沒問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。謝謝部長。委員會在這邊報告，待蘇清泉召委詢答結束之後再休息。","接下來請王育敏委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a73955e151824f33b7f2aef3382ea3fb0b1c1f5e093a479505a549a2cf34375e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:16:51 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10:28:15","影片長度":"00:11:24","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T10:16:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T10:28:15+08:00","duration":684,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.39721875,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.05409375,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.30659375,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.47096875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.41596875,"end":33.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.78096875,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.447218750000005,"end":64.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.48096875,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.15159375,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.07034375,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.10221875,"end":84.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.94096875000001,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.83534375,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.10909375,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.96471875,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.08284375000001,"end":105.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.96846875,"end":103.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.80346875000001,"end":115.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.88784375,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.07721875,"end":109.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.76034375,"end":112.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.45596875000001,"end":136.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.40409375,"end":123.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.64034375000001,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":139.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.77284375000002,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.82721875000001,"end":184.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.23596875,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.68159375000002,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.82721875000001,"end":196.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.87784375,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.40909375,"end":215.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.39534375000002,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.60096875000002,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.25471875000002,"end":235.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.73096875000002,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.19784375,"end":228.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.38659375,"end":238.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.68784375,"end":256.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.63221875,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.84659375,"end":264.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.68159375,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.76346875,"end":305.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.71909375,"end":295.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.55721875,"end":304.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.06346875,"end":305.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.33346875,"end":385.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.09721875,"end":388.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.93221875,"end":412.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.31221875,"end":418.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.55221875,"end":419.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.97721875,"end":427.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.47471875,"end":466.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.01471875000004,"end":428.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.25846875,"end":434.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.55721875,"end":468.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.62471875000006,"end":466.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.81846875,"end":470.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.52284375000005,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.38346875,"end":475.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.10471875,"end":473.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.85534375000003,"end":482.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.09534375000004,"end":479.17971875},{"speaker":"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謝謝主席有請次長跟署長請黃次長跟兩位署長 哪一位那個矯正署 周署長好 委員好"},{"start":20.841,"end":42.743,"text":"次長還有署長我們今天會議主題是要談現行預證跟受刑人處遇機制的制度檢討我覺得我們的主席莊昭偉非常的關心這個題目所以他也安排很多的考察對預證的部分所以在這邊我們大家深入來討論怎麼去改善我們現在的預證的問題"},{"start":44.895,"end":62.106,"text":"那也不要負了我們召委的一起苦心一起加油那首先我想請教一下次長跟署長一個很簡單的問題尤其我們署長應該要知道我們現在監所到底收了多少人那設計容量是多少 超收了百分之多少哪一間最誇張 超收最多"},{"start":65.342,"end":93.283,"text":"報告委員我們核定收容額是60552那目前因為可能詐騙犯他上升了我們大概就突破了6萬人大概超收大概是0.48在之前的我們現在以最新的6月22我們是60945那超收最高是哪個監獄"},{"start":94.204,"end":114.715,"text":"超收最高的這個會變動那以往像桃園監獄是超收嚴重的所以要每個月都要五車的移監以往是桃園監獄是跟高雄二監那目前像桃園女子監獄台北看守所台北監獄都有超收的情況"},{"start":115.975,"end":140.647,"text":"我看到數字是最嚴重的就是桃園女子監獄超收率高達46%其實算是非常嚴重的超收我想請教一下我們署長就是按照法規每個人需要多少的空間我們受刑人法規上收容標準的空間是多少知道嗎空間嗎對 空間"},{"start":143.667,"end":172.117,"text":"這個應該是沒有特別規定什麼空間但是每一個機關它的空間有它的歷史的嚴格像桃園監獄它是三合一附設看守所或少年公務所那以往它是桃園地驗的附設看守所的時候它只收300多350左右那350左右因為刑事政策的變監它又成立監獄看守所 少管所它最高收到"},{"start":172.737,"end":190.573,"text":"大概2000人但是他的合定收容額是1275人所以他大概都超收5成目前是有再降下來大概是兩三成我看到的那個標準是那個收容標準是每人0.7坪啦那我不知道這個標準是不是剛剛剛剛署長是說實際上是沒有標準"},{"start":194.816,"end":214.642,"text":"那再確認一下好不好因為我看到標準是這個還是有幕僚可以確認一下我們以前是0.7坪扣除這些廁所那個盥洗之外但是所謂的司法改革的時候有建議說要人道化希望能夠比如說"},{"start":215.402,"end":237.482,"text":"至少要超過幾坪一坪或是多少他有做一些建議我們會朝這個方面來努力包括有一些是新建有一些是擴建像八德彰化看守所如果能夠啟用那應該對於北部中部的超收有很大的幫助其實蘇長你剛剛講的就是我要講的重點"},{"start":238.993,"end":250.428,"text":"就以前的標準0.7坪其實都做不到啦那現在新的標準建議是希望能夠更有人道的空間那就還差一大步不知道次長是不是覺得這個努力的空間要怎麼辦"},{"start":252.055,"end":278.366,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前我們現在興建還沒有完全完成的有彰化跟八德剛剛蘇長有講我們目前還有台北看守所跟台北女子看守所會因為新北的園區也會啟動興建改建的工程所以我們會努力來爭取像剛剛特別提到的桃園女子監獄"},{"start":279.406,"end":304.293,"text":"我們也會來爭取增建的計畫也排到我們部裡面的前十來爭取像行政院來爭取中長城的計畫所以說我們因為硬體很多都是接收過去沿用的建築物來說所以它的設防比較難如果不改建 新建的話很難改善那我們會視國家財政情況跟我們的規劃一步一步往前走謝謝委員"},{"start":305.573,"end":324.123,"text":"實際上就是要麻煩法務部跟矯正署都再加把勁因為現在其實很多地方坦白講空間真的是不夠那收容有些根本是硬塞進去那也傳出說床位不夠就碎地板的這些種種情形那這其實已經不是矯正根本就是虐待所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":325.643,"end":345.149,"text":"應該我覺得相關單位還是要去檢討改正的地方那麼事實上超收也不只是睡覺級的這個這麼簡單的問題而已啦那收容人之間就會產生很多的摩擦人就是你知道我們人一般是會有一個空間的一個需要的空間感嘛那如果這空間感被破壞的話摩擦跟"},{"start":345.97,"end":362.09,"text":"衝突就會變多 像一些自殘 暴力事件也會上升那對介護員來說壓力也會變大所以如果說現在我們看到這樣的環境那更不要講還要做什麼的戒癮 心理輔導或是一些毒飲飯的一些問題 就變得是更"},{"start":364.273,"end":385.203,"text":"實際上就更惡化了 所以其實監所的空間它連動的東西我覺得是很多的不是單單只是空間級而已 它連動甚至很多的寓所的管理至於說今天真正矯正的一些作為的進行 所以這一點剛剛次長有提很多的一些就是監獄的一些計畫 希望能夠把步調加快一點"},{"start":386.138,"end":412.39,"text":"好 謝委員我們會全力向行政院來爭取好 那另外齁 這個次長我也要說齁像這個最近齁就發生過一些很多的一些包括性侵啊性騷啊的一些問題啊就在這擁擠空間裡面這已經快要不是個案幾乎是體系問題我想請問一下次長你知道去年齁2024年齁監索性侵性騷擾案件數是多少那相較於過去有提高嗎"},{"start":415.171,"end":418.741,"text":"這個數據我可能要請這個交通署這邊來查一下是喔 那署長這邊有掌握嗎"},{"start":425.769,"end":448.814,"text":"目前手上的數據沒有我這邊有幫你查啦我們就這個數據來討論一下有什麼要補充再回後補充給我2024年總共是136件它是創六年的新高也是在過去十年裡的第二高就去年是六年的新高那對比2022年的73件三年之間增加是1.86倍所以"},{"start":451.714,"end":465.264,"text":"嚴格來講其實這個相關的問題是在變得比較相對嚴重的趨勢那我們現在請問一下我們的監所現在有沒有一個全面有效的性侵性騷擾事件的通報SOP"},{"start":467.301,"end":486.453,"text":"還是有很多單綴黑數跟委員報告因為我上任大概一年多去年下半年來到法務部我們的通報系統事實上都非常的健全就是性侵害防治三法新潮這些防治法等等的我們都依照相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":487.654,"end":513.767,"text":"那我想也是因為這個MeToo運動之後大家的權利意識提高我們到現在有時候都還會接到針對過去發生的事情不一定是現在發生他現在來提出申訴跟檢舉那我們都會依照相關的規定當然要對檢舉人來做保密來保護他然後我們也會做客觀的調查機制然後都會成立或不成立的判定之後都有相關的懲處跟處置的規定這樣子"},{"start":516.348,"end":530.923,"text":"好非常謝謝次長我還是要提醒一下其實監鎖狀況跟一般社會情況其實坦白講狀況可能會更嚴峻一點是因為壓力比較大對那裡面的話壓力也大那被害人可能會不敢講因為在那個地方基本上他"},{"start":531.543,"end":559.337,"text":"可能會跑不掉然後也怕被報復所以有時候像在監所裡面類似的問題其實往往會被押很多黑屬菌所以這個可能是要特別注意就像說2022年高雄監獄就發生男性收容能遭到其他六名男育有集體霸凌跟性侵的案件那這個月月初你也看到金週刊也報導收到台東高雄嘉義台北監獄收容人的投訴"},{"start":560.658,"end":577.955,"text":"那包括這個管理員的一個所謂的那個性侵然後預方卻沒有把加害人調職然後有長官方任管理員用暴力的方式教育受刑人那縱容管理員未依規定請假或兼職拉幫結派 誣陷受刑人等等"},{"start":578.636,"end":604.682,"text":"那這些問題我想請教一下署長那這種類似的問題像當然目前是媒體揭露啦那我不知道我們的現在矯正署還有那個御所方面所方方面的話現在面對這個問題是怎麼樣去來改進的報告委員針對媒體所謂揭露的這些事件我們署裡面都有去調查了解而且也做發布新聞稿做一些回應說明了"},{"start":605.862,"end":622.186,"text":"那另外補充就是我現在手頭上有剛剛委員執行到的性侵跟性騷擾的矯正機關的通報案件大概以今年來講是136件去年113年是136件今年是1到5月統計是54件在以往大概是100件左右"},{"start":633.091,"end":656.847,"text":"從105年開始有這些相關統計大概100件左右反正跟您說一下就說136件是10年來次高大概最高一次是107年的140件那105年2016年是88件那實際上中間有高高低低但是確實在去年它的數字是相對比較高的所以這個要提醒大家注意一下"},{"start":657.458,"end":681.544,"text":"那另外最後還是要講就是說這些獄政的改革其實牽涉到就是包括他所矯正的成效啦那也包括他在獄所內 監獄裡面犯罪的防治的問題那相關的問題其實都要需要大家再加把勁再努力 不然類似像那個週刊報導這種情況 層出不窮其實對也不是我們今天監獄管理之福啦以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":581,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時16分）謝謝主席。有請次長跟署長。"],["主席：有兩位署長，要哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：矯正署周署長。"],["主席：矯正署周署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長還有署長好。我們今天會議主題是要談現行獄政跟受刑人處遇機制的制度檢討。我覺得我們的主席──莊召委非常關心這個題目，所以他也安排很多對獄政部分的考察，在這邊大家深入來討論怎麼去改善現在獄政的問題，也不要負了召委的一片苦心，一起加油。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：首先我想請教次長跟署長一個很簡單的問題，尤其署長應該要知道，現在監所到底收了多少人？設計容量是多少？超收了百分之多少？哪一間最誇張，超收最多？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們核定收容額是6萬552人，目前可能因為詐騙犯上升，大概就突破6萬人，在之前超收大概是0.48，現在以最新6月22日是6萬945人。"],["羅委員智強：超收最高是哪一個監獄？"],["周署長輝煌：超收最高會變動，像桃園監獄是超收嚴重的，所以它每個月都要辦理5車移監。以往是桃園監獄跟高雄二監，目前像桃園女子監獄、臺北看守所、臺北監獄都有超收的情況。"],["羅委員智強：我看到的數字最嚴重就是桃園女子監獄，超收率高達46%，其實算是非常嚴重的超收。我想請教一下署長，按照法規受刑人收容標準的空間是多少，知道嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：空間嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對，空間。"],["周署長輝煌：這個應該是沒有特別規定什麼空間，但是每一個機關的空間有它的歷史沿革，像桃園監獄是三合一附設看守所，又有少年觀護所，以往它是桃園地院附設看守所的時候，只收350左右，因為刑事政策的變遷，它又成立監獄、看守所、少管所，最高收到大概2,000人，但是它的核定收容額是1,275人，所以大概就超收五成，目前是有再降下來，大概是兩、三成之間。"],["羅委員智強：我看到的收容標準是每人0.7坪，我不知道這個標準是不是……剛剛署長說實際上是沒有標準，再確認一下好不好？因為我看到標準是這個，還是有幕僚可以確認一下？"],["周署長輝煌：我們以前扣除廁所、盥洗之外是0.7坪，但是所謂司法改革的時候，有建議要人道化，希望能夠比如至少要超過幾坪、一坪或是多少，是有做一些建議，我們會朝這個方面來努力，包括有一些是新建、有一些是擴建，像八德外役監、彰化看守所如果能夠啟用，應該對於北部、中部的超收有很大的幫助。"],["羅委員智強：其實署長剛剛講的就是我要講的重點，連以前的標準0.7坪都做不到，現在新的標準建議是希望能夠更有人道的空間，就還差一大步，不知道次長覺得這個努力的空間要怎麼辦？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，目前新建還沒有完全完成的有彰化跟八德，這剛剛署長有講。我們目前還有臺北看守所跟臺北女子看守所，因為新北園區也會啟動改建的工程，所以我們會努力來爭取，像剛剛特別提到的桃園女子監獄，我們也會來爭取增建的計畫，也有排到我們部裡面的前十，向行政院爭取中長程計畫。因為我們硬體很多都是接收過去沿用的建築物，所以它的舍房比較難，如果不改建、新建的話很難改善，我們會視國家財政情況跟我們的規劃，一步一步往前走，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：事實上就是要麻煩法務部跟矯正署都再加把勁，因為現在其實很多地方，坦白講空間真的是不夠，收容有些根本是硬塞進去，也傳出床位不夠是睡地板的種種情形，這其實已經不是矯正，根本就是虐待，所以我覺得相關單位還是要去檢討改正這些地方。","事實上超收也不只是擠著睡覺這麼簡單的問題而已，收容人之間會產生很多摩擦，你知道我們人一般是會需要空間感，如果這空間感被破壞的話，摩擦跟衝突就會變多，像一些自殘、暴力事件也會上升，對戒護員來說壓力也會變大，所以如果說現在我們看到這樣的環境，更不要講還要做什麼戒癮、心理輔導或是處理一些毒癮犯的問題，事實上就更惡化。所以我覺得監所空間連動的東西是很多的，不單單只是空間擠而已，甚至連動很多獄所的管理，乃至於今天真正一些矯正作為的進行，所以剛剛次長有提很多監獄的計畫，希望你們能夠把步調加快一點。"],["黃次長世杰：好，謝謝委員，我們會全力向行政院來爭取。"],["羅委員智強：另外，次長，我也要說，像最近就發生過很多包括性侵、性騷的一些問題，就在這擁擠的空間裡面，這已經快要不是個案，幾乎是體系問題。我想請問一下次長，你知道去（2024）年監所性侵、性騷擾案件數是多少？相較於過去有提高嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：這個數據我可能要請矯正署來查一下。"],["羅委員智強：署長，這邊有掌握嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：目前手上沒有數據。"],["羅委員智強：我這邊有幫你查，我們就這個數據來討論一下，有什麼要補充會後再補充給我。2024年總共是136件，是創6年的新高，也是在過去十年裡的第二高，即去年是6年的新高，對比2022年的73件，三年之間增加是1.86倍。所以嚴格來講，其實相關的問題有變得相對嚴重的趨勢。請問一下，監所現在有沒有一個全面有效的性侵、性騷擾事件通報SOP？還是有很多犯罪黑數？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為我上任大概一年多，去年下半年來到法務部，我們的通報系統事實上都非常健全，就是性侵害犯罪防治法、性平三法等等，我們都有依照相關的規定來辦理，我想也是因為＃MeToo運動之後，大家的權利意識提高，我們到現在有時候都還會接到針對過去發生的事情，不一定是現在發生的，現在來提出申訴跟檢舉，我們都會依照相關的規定，當然對於檢舉人要保密，以保護他，然後我們也會做客觀的調查機制，做成立或不成立的判定之後都會有相關的懲處跟處置的規定。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝次長，我還是要提醒一下，監所的狀況跟一般社會的情況相較，坦白講，狀況可能會更嚴峻一點。"],["黃次長世杰：是，因為壓力比較大。"],["羅委員智強：對，裡面壓力也大，被害人可能會不敢講，因為在那個地方他可能會跑不掉，也怕被報復，所以有時候在監所裡面類似的問題往往會被壓了很多黑數，所以這個可能要特別注意。就像2022年高雄監獄就發生男性收容人遭到其他6名男獄友集體霸凌跟性侵的案件，這個月月初鏡週刊也報導，收到臺東、高雄、嘉義、臺北監獄收容人的投訴，包括遭管理員性侵，獄方卻沒有把加害人調職；也有長官放任管理員用暴力的方式「教育」受刑人、縱容管理員未依規定請假或兼職；管理員拉幫結派、誣陷受刑人等等。我想請教一下署長，這種類似的問題當然目前是媒體揭露，不知道現在矯正署還有獄所方面，面對這個問題是怎麼樣改進？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，針對媒體所揭露的這些事件，我們署裡面都有去調查、了解，而且也發布新聞稿做一些回應、說明了。另外補充，我現在手頭上有剛剛委員質詢到的性侵跟性騷擾的矯正機關通報案件，以去（113）年來講是136件，今年1到5月統計是54件，以往從105年開始有這些相關的統計，大概是100件左右。"],["羅委員智強：好，反正跟您說一下，136件是十年來次高，最高一次大概是在107年的140件，105年是88件，中間的件數高高低低，但是確實在去年的數字是相對比較高的，所以這個要提醒大家注意一下。","另外，最後還是要講，這些獄政的改革牽涉到矯正的成效，也包括在獄所內、監獄裡面犯罪防治的問題，相關的問題其實都需要大家再加把勁、再努力，不然類似像週刊報導的這種情況層出不窮，也不是我們監獄管理之福，以上，謝謝。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝委員。"],["主席（沈委員發惠代）：接下來請莊瑞雄委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a381277a7216f2459b85017248ed72d8db1c1f5e093a47950109c112c25b928345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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主席我們請那個國發會副主委還有交通部次長詹副主委 林次長好 兩位好委員好今天的議題這個非常重要因高齡化社會這個是我們確實是一個非常高齡然後又是一個少子女化非常非常嚴重"},{"start":48.803,"end":55.969,"text":"今天國發會的報告裡面特別提到整合公司資源提升偏鄉運輸生活體驗這個中間階段裡面"},{"start":64.849,"end":82.516,"text":"例如交通部公務及以台東縣政府啟動TTGO花東溫馨接送EA媒體服務透過煤核機制整合在地巴士、計程車、租賃車及企業公益車輛等多元"},{"start":83.736,"end":111.34,"text":"運具的支援補貼民眾車資提供點到點的接駁到載的服務這個政策很好重點是這個漏水的問題第一個這個部分已經那時候是為了因應地震之後然後提出的這樣的一個很好的一個方案但是現在已經已經調整了"},{"start":112.911,"end":129.711,"text":"你自己的報告裡面解決目前台東地區的運輸需求缺口只有談到台東了本來是花東對不對花東溫馨接受所以這個部分"},{"start":131.13,"end":150.882,"text":"這個現在只有台東偏鄉交通最後一里路了所以這個部分是一個資訊互相交通部跟國發會的資訊要互相的交通部的報告裡面提到這個"},{"start":152.674,"end":170.206,"text":"公路總級以192個鄉鎮共493條路線,包含62個偏鄉239條路線,推動其中幸福巴士以通車共97個鄉鎮區,共326條路線,含53個偏鄉196條路線,幸福小房以通車95個鄉鎮區,"},{"start":182.834,"end":207.382,"text":"共167條路線含9個偏鄉共43條路線全國偏鄉第7公路公共運輸含概率達94.4%這個交通部啊 社長啊這個這樣的寫法這個好像這個績效非常非常的棒這樣子含概率達到94.4%"},{"start":210.97,"end":238.44,"text":"真的是這樣嗎所以尤其是就偏鄉來講我們是偏鄉我們偏鄉的一看這個不是這樣嘛對不對如果我們光看你的那個幸福小黃含9個偏鄉就9個而已嘛對不對然後呢那個你的那個幸福84含53個偏鄉我們偏鄉還不止這些嘛然後偏鄉"},{"start":240.781,"end":252.745,"text":"這個也有很多不同的那個如果是以我們村與村之間部落與部落之間那根本就沒有啊所以這個部分涵蓋率達到94.4%這個用詞還是要去注意了需要回應嗎"},{"start":264.288,"end":283.034,"text":"基本上偏鄉的定義是根據內政部的定義我知道這個我知道我是老公務員知道沒關係您的意思就是說可能偏鄉一個區一條線靠過去也算一個所以我想我們還是以他的普及力來看就我們來說是一個非常不可思議的沒有啊哪裡有對不對"},{"start":285.535,"end":309.653,"text":"會產生這樣的一個好我們就講這個幸福巴士27條路線當然這個是你們的努力包括縣政府我們共同的一起去推動都是要肯定的該肯定的我們要肯定好我們看這個幸福小黃事實上幸福小黃的政策是應該積極加強的推動為什麼呢"},{"start":313.757,"end":337.78,"text":"這個幸福巴士因為它畢竟它不是每個小時對不對所以反而是幸福小黃會更貼切人民的需要尤其是長者的需要尤其是這個非常弱勢的需要我們看這個花蓮縣幸福小黃你看最下面的查無資料"},{"start":339.967,"end":350.972,"text":"對不對?系統上查護資料我們確實是沒有啊好我們看這個台東縣幸福小行有啊部分成功延頻"},{"start":354.543,"end":374.128,"text":"還差很遠最需要的偏鄉還是有差的一個很大很大的落差就舉這兩個例子所以這個我們要努力的地方還很多還是需要非常非常的要去加油當然經費就是一個問題經費所以國發會要支持"},{"start":380.124,"end":403.39,"text":"對不對 你要整體的一個政策然後經費的這個提供都是需要國發會來去預祝所以這個部分要繼續努力 好不好好 我們看這個時間的關係今天台鐵票價 今天開始漲價"},{"start":405.519,"end":420.685,"text":"這個是對我們偏鄉整個花蓮縣台東縣而言這個偏鄉又是一個非常非常嚴重的一個問題所以今天開始漲價我們看這個"},{"start":425.114,"end":446.181,"text":"交通部交通部所提出來的花東會員過票點數是透過會員我們今天的主題是什麼高齡者對不對高齡者就沒有會員沒有加入會員對不對高齡者我們今天的主題高齡會員都沒有"},{"start":449.039,"end":467.674,"text":"對不對 如何去想得到這樣的一個會員的點數 沒有嘛所以這個部分就是一個要去處理的部分本事業曾經建議我們現在就UV很多都會去就學就業的"},{"start":470.943,"end":499.931,"text":"你現在只有現在花蓮台東的戶籍在那邊的但是在花東就學就業的他要回去就沒有啊對不對然後呢他的戶籍不在花蓮台東但是在花蓮東華大學就學到台東大學就學的也沒有啊所以這個在花蓮台東工作的好不容易他希望到台東工作把人留下來結果也沒有"},{"start":501.411,"end":526.05,"text":"所以涉及到还是经费国家会副主委还是涉及到还是经费请问一下次长你知道这个你现在的政策花工会员购票点数这个优惠经费从哪里来包园台铁的部分我们这一部分有一部分是从TPAS这边来"},{"start":526.775,"end":550.265,"text":"那個 那另外有些是花東對 票收去回饋花東基金的部分我跟您報告啊那個不是只有UV都可以因為只要涉及在花東的都可以所以不是只有UV出生在花東你弄錯我的意思了現在的 你們的規定現在的規定是第二個"},{"start":552.315,"end":566.522,"text":"花蓮縣台東縣附籍在那邊的只有附籍在那邊現在你看你現在的是只有也不是第二點的就是你現在的只有附籍在花蓮縣跟台東縣的才可以"},{"start":567.403,"end":591.943,"text":"然後我的公文是要建議擴大要擴大的意思了是這個意思所以這個公文因為你的目前的做法就是只有針對戶籍跟戶籍在花蓮縣跟台東縣的我的意思是要擴大的意思而經費之前我也執行過國發會希望用花東基金因為"},{"start":593.339,"end":620.491,"text":"你要交通部臨時找這些錢也很難啦然後也不應該有台鐵來吸收啦也不應該有他所以我才說用花東基金既然是要用花東基金那個交通部就不要給限收在富吉在花蓮跟台東的因為你以前的政策是什麼呢你的那個乘車的政策就是"},{"start":621.448,"end":630.298,"text":"副UV都算精細啊所以這個部分是要請重點還是錢嘛還是經費請謝謝這個這個國發會副主委一直點頭點頭就是同意對不對不要搖頭不要搖頭"},{"start":643.537,"end":667.811,"text":"跟委員報告 謝謝委員的指導您提到花東基金的部分因為這個可能還要跟花蓮跟台東縣政府他們都贊成據我們了解好像他們有一些意見所以這部分是不是花東基金的部分可能還要再跟他們討論這也先跟委員報告我非常清楚花東基金從我當立委那年開始的"},{"start":670.755,"end":692.606,"text":"102年開始的所以有部分是屬於屬於中央中央去調配的那個部分呢有沒有有嗎中央調配的那個部分有地方政府負責的也有中央負責的那個部分好不好好謝謝好謝謝林一林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時11分）主席，我們請國發會副主委及交通部次長。"],["主席：詹副主委、林次長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：兩位好。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天這個「因應高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」的議題非常重要，我們確實是一個非常高齡且少子女化非常非常嚴重的社會。","今天國發會的報告中，在「整合公私資源提升偏鄉運輸生活體驗」的部分，有特別提到「如交通部公路局與臺東縣政府啟動『TTGO 花東溫馨接送預約媒合服務』」，係透過媒合機制，整合在地巴士、計程車、租賃車及企業公益車輛等多元運具資源，補貼民眾車資，提供點到點的『接駁到宅』服務。」這個政策很好，重點是落實的問題。第一個，這個服務當初是為了因應地震之後，然後提出這樣一個很好的方案，但是現在已經調整了，你自己的報告裡面提到這是「解決目前臺東地區的運輸需求缺口」，只有談到臺東，本來是花東溫馨接送預約媒合服務嘛，對不對？現在這個就是補足臺東偏鄉交通的最後一哩路，所以這個部分交通部跟國發會的資訊要互相的整合。","另外，在交通部的報告提到「公路局已於192個鄉鎮共493條路線（包含62個偏鄉，239條路線）推動，其中幸福巴士已通車共97個鄉鎮區，共326條路線（含53個偏鄉，196條路線）、幸福小黃已通車95個鄉鎮區，共167條路線（含9個偏鄉，共43條路線），全國偏鄉地區公路公共運輸涵蓋率達94.4%。」次長，交通部報告中的這種寫法好像績效非常非常的棒，涵蓋率達到94.4%，真的是這樣嗎？尤其是就偏鄉來講，我們偏鄉的人一看就不是這樣嘛！光以幸福小黃來說，已通車的偏鄉就只有9個而已嘛，對不對？然後幸福巴士已通車的偏鄉是53個，但我們偏鄉不只這些啊，而且偏鄉也有很多不同的情況，如果是我們村與村之間、部落與部落之間，那根本就沒有嘛！所以這個部分的涵蓋率達到94.4%，這個用詞還是要注意啦！次長需要回應嗎？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，基本上偏鄉的定義是根據內政部的定義。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，這個我知道，我是老公務員了。"],["林次長國顯：沒關係，您的意思就是說，可能偏鄉一個區域，一條線靠過去也算一個啦，所以我想我們還是以它的普及率來看，這是初步的統計結果。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！這個涵蓋率是一個非常不可思議的數字，因為沒有啊！哪裡有？對不對？會產生這樣的一個質疑。","花蓮縣的幸福巴士有27條路線，當然這是你們的努力，包括縣政府，我們共同一起去推動，這都是要給予肯定的，該肯定的我們要肯定啦！但是幸福小黃的部分，事實上幸福小黃的政策應該要積極的加強推動，為什麼呢？因為幸福巴士畢竟不是每個小時都有車班，所以反而是幸福小黃會更貼切人民的需要，尤其是長者的需要及弱勢者的需要。我們來看新花蓮縣的幸福小黃，你看這張簡報，最下面是「查無資料」，對不對？系統上「查無資料」，我們確實是沒有啊！而臺東縣的幸福小黃是有的，但也只有部分鄉鎮，只有成功鎮跟延平鄉，所以涵蓋率還差很遠，最需要的偏鄉還是有很大很大的落差。我就舉這兩個例子，所以這個部分我們要努力的地方還很多，還是需要非常非常的加油。當然，經費就是一個問題啦，所以國發會要支持，對不對？除了整體的政策規劃，還要有經費的提供，所以需要國發會來挹注，這個部分要繼續努力，好不好？","因為時間的關係，我們來看下一個問題。臺鐵票價今天開始漲價了，這個對我們偏鄉，對整個花蓮縣、臺東縣而言，又是一個非常非常嚴重的問題，票價從今天開始漲價了。我們看到交通部所提出來的優惠措施是花東會員購票點數加倍送，但這是會員才能享有的優惠，而我們今天的主題是什麼呢？高齡者，對不對？高齡者就沒有加入會員啊！我們今天的主題是要因應高齡化社會，但高齡者連會員都不是，如何去獲得這樣的會員點數呢？沒有嘛！所以這個就是要去處理的部分。","本席也曾經建議優惠對象應該比照花東地區實名制訂票，增加身分證字號為U、V開頭者，現在有很多人到都會區就學就業，現在只有設籍於花蓮及臺東的人才能享有優惠，但是在花東就學就業的人也很多，他們要回去就沒有優惠啊，對不對？例如有些學生的戶籍不在花蓮、臺東，但是在花蓮東華大學就學、在臺東大學就學，這些人也沒有優惠啊！還有在花蓮、臺東工作的人，好不容易有人願意到臺東工作，我們把人留下來了，結果他們也沒有優惠啊！所以涉及到的還是經費問題啦，國發會副主委，這還是涉及到經費的問題。","請問一下次長，你知道現在這個政策，花東會員購票點數優惠措施的經費從哪裡來？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，臺鐵的部分有一部分是從TPASS這邊來，另外有一些是花東，對，到時候去回饋花東基金的部分……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，這個是我上次……"],["林次長國顯：我也跟您報告，只要設籍在花東的都可以，不是只有出生在花東身分證字號U、V的才可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不，你弄錯我的意思了。現在你們的規定，現在的規定是第(二)點，戶籍在花蓮縣、臺東縣那邊的，只有戶籍在那邊的才可以，你看現在也不是第(二)點，就是現在的規定是只有戶籍在花蓮縣跟臺東縣的才可以，然後我的公文是建議要擴大的意思，這是我這個公文的意思，因為目前的作法就是只有針對戶籍在花蓮縣跟臺東縣的，但我的意思是要擴大的意思。","至於經費，之前我也質詢過國發會，希望用花東基金，因為要交通部臨時找這些錢也很難，然後也不應該由臺鐵來吸收，所以我才說用花東基金。既然要用花東基金，交通部就不要只限縮戶籍在花蓮跟臺東的，因為以前的政策是什麼呢？那個乘車的政策就是身分證字號U、V開頭的都算進去，所以這個部分重點還是錢嘛，還是經費。我也要謝謝國發會的副主委一直點頭，點頭就是同意，對不對？啊，搖頭，你不要搖頭啊！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的指導，您提到花東基金的部分，這個可能還要跟花蓮、跟臺東縣政府……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：他們都贊成啦！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：據我們了解，好像他們有一些意見，所以花東基金的部分可能還要再跟他們討論，這點先跟委員報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不、不，我非常清楚，花東基金是從我當立委那年102年開始的，所以有部分是屬於中央去調配的，有沒有？有嘛！中央調配的那個部分。有地方政府負責的，也有中央負責的部分，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，呂玉玲委員詢答結束後休息5分鐘。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：我們接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那有請周署長請周署長"},{"start":19.844,"end":42.928,"text":"好署長早安署長我還是想繼續跟你談我們之前有研究過的一些題目那雖然吳宗憲朝我一直提醒我你要退休但我相信署長你一定會把我們所有委員關心的題目跟後續的署長交接對嗎是謝謝署長我要先談一下在107年的時候當時的法務部長邱太三他做了一個承諾那確實你們後續也都做到了"},{"start":43.228,"end":67.338,"text":"他說希望可以在109年的時候達到一人一床監所零超收這個願景非常的好我們來往下看我們看你們逐年收容的這個人數我來看一下從110到111 112 123確實到13確實都沒有超收可是我比較好奇到了114年5月底這個是你們"},{"start":68.138,"end":83.436,"text":"法務部自己的資料統計這個我們還沒有鎖死網站上就看得到到了五月底的時候已經有超額收容的問題我比較好奇這個超額收容是怎麼樣造成的我猜想會不會是因為近年來詐騙案"},{"start":85.498,"end":99.445,"text":"很猖獗那各部會積極辦案的結果積極調查的情況下讓收容人數上升因為我們之前看少年犯有很多確實是因為詐欺詐騙我不知道在成人或是其他整個統計上是不是因為這樣"},{"start":100.931,"end":115.157,"text":"是 報告委員確實是這個詐欺犯他上升到第一名來所以有一些人數上我們的突破六萬人我們的核定收入是60552"},{"start":117.661,"end":134.217,"text":"那目前目前應該也是6萬出頭一點點對啦其實只有超收42個人比例也不高可是我認為如果如果真的是我剛推估的你也說確實是因為詐騙案的關係我們的收容人越來越多"},{"start":134.597,"end":150.43,"text":"那我認為雖然各部會已經很努力打詐可是壞人比我們更用功比我們更努力他們會努力想出各式各樣的方法詐騙常常我聽到很多案例我都覺得瞠目結舌非常可怕那我們如何看待這個情況跟後續你們有沒有什麼因應的方案"},{"start":151.889,"end":169.669,"text":"對於那個詐騙集團他普遍有不勞而獲的心態所以原則上我們會加強他的技能訓練還有相關的法治先導那可是 對不對署長我知道這是裡面教化的部分但是超收這個部分他很有可能節節必高喔 數字"},{"start":171.397,"end":188.753,"text":"對於超收的部分我們會看它的超收比例尤其是超收超過兩成以上的我們就會積極辦理移間原則上從北部移到中南部去所以你認為如果全台灣通盤考慮我們目前還有些餘裕空間上"},{"start":189.764,"end":194.686,"text":"我們是可以盤點哪個地方它的空間比較多的我們就把它移植到那個地方去但是因為這個表格法務部的這個表格是針對所有的收容機構 矯正機構"},{"start":206.69,"end":224.316,"text":"的收容人數我想要拜託我們有沒有機會請你們幫我們提供一個統計數字是個別監所因為剛剛署長您自己提到可以北中南做調整所以我也就很好奇北中南東現在所有矯正機關各自的收容人數單獨個別的統計數字不用現在給我有機會可以幫我們統計嗎"},{"start":227.637,"end":241.126,"text":"我們已經有這個比如說哪個機關超收我們會有延遷表示比如說超過兩成的有幾所我們都有依照這個來參考然後辦理一間的作業那這個數字再拜託你們給我們辦公室"},{"start":244.088,"end":262.924,"text":"會後再提供給我們好 謝謝那如果超收我們其實就會比較擔心之前也跟署長討論過下一張關於人力的部分其實也是希望幫所有願意進到矯正機構工作的專業員工跟您討論就是在人數比的部分我上次還沒有跟您討論完我想跟您請教"},{"start":263.624,"end":289.267,"text":"所謂教化人力上次你們給我們的數字是1比138那介護人力是1比11新社跟醫事都各自其實看起來那個比例上會讓人感到有一點擔心會不會所有這些矯正機關的工作人員專業人力工作負擔過重我不是很確定所以我想要請問一下所謂教化人力在你們的定義當中它的工作內容工作樣態大概有哪些"},{"start":290.598,"end":307.098,"text":"報告委員 教化人力 主要是教委師或一些輔導員 他們主要是辦理假釋的業務或劣勁處理分數的業務那當然從這個表看起來 我們的教化人力確實負擔蠻重的 所以我們"},{"start":308.459,"end":337.379,"text":"針對我們的行刑累進處理在民國35年訂定有點老舊不合時宜的我們會把它作為簡化考核制度因為現行的民國幾年則分數不同打的分數每個月進幾哩都不一樣非常的繁瑣我們會把它作為簡化考核制度之後讓每個教委是在假釋辦理或是累進處理的辦理方面會比較有效率"},{"start":337.899,"end":357.004,"text":"而且減輕他的負擔所以這個我們正在努力正在努力意思就是說你們已經在研議簡化考核的事情那現在的進度你們可不可以給我們知道一下我們原則上有在報法務部第三次報法務部因為我們會會相關的私處他們都有一些意見再回來我們再針對這個意見再來做微調"},{"start":365.106,"end":386.725,"text":"好 那簡化這個流程之後 是不是會讓這個人數比看起來人數比會降低嗎 應該不會 我們只是調整他們的工作內容但工作比還會是 人數比還會是這樣那我比較好奇第一線的教化人員 有讓你們知道說其實假設未來就算簡化 其實工作量還是會有點太超過"},{"start":387.686,"end":407.567,"text":"還是其實我不是很確定簡化之後包括累進主義假釋就單純化了所以對他可能原來要加班的加班的時數會就降低了是有實際的幫助所以我們簡化的目標就是希望讓他們的工作loading不要太重然後不要每個人都過度的加班"},{"start":408.047,"end":426.94,"text":"那這個簡化的過程當中也要拜託要積極聆聽第一線工作同仁的聲音尤其是您剛剛說這些在現場第一線的教化人力他們的需求跟他們的困境他們的狀況我認為既然已經有在研議中拜託你們要聽他們的聲音是 這個我們就有聽取我們就有收集他們的意見所屬機關的意見在做處理的"},{"start":430.583,"end":458.61,"text":"好 那上個禮拜還跟您討論到關於新設跟醫事人力喔這個部分當然是指針對受刑人的部分但是因為這個數字是整體所有的矯正機構我其實還蠻好奇那各個的矯正機構包含少角校 少官所或者是其他的矯正機構各別的人力統計數字這個你們有現行的統計數字嗎可以會後提供給我們辦公室嗎這個已經有了好 個別的 我說的是個別"},{"start":459.73,"end":482.883,"text":"新設人力的跟議事人力我們有分開來好 那在會後再提供給我們會後可以提供好 沒問題那我們來看一下剛剛指的是受刑人的部分我們現在來看一下監所員工的協助方案因為我們都希望所有的積極的行政作為都是希望減輕現場工作人員的負擔那相關的新聞我就不再贅述我相信署長你一定知道"},{"start":483.283,"end":493.841,"text":"我上一次也問過你心理協助方案但時間有限我現在想要積極跟您討論到底我們現在積極協助監所員工的協助方案內容大概有哪些"},{"start":494.915,"end":521.285,"text":"所謂的員工協助方案我們員工協助方案是只要各機關的人士是在負責包括他有情緒或有被霸凌的都可以提出來那至於這個案件我們也有我們不要講個案我們不要講個案我希望知道的是所有這些歸屬於矯正署底下的所有在監索員工裡面他們的協助方案大概的樣態有哪些"},{"start":521.505,"end":536.627,"text":"大概樣態比如說他有情緒障礙那我們人事室他願意把他的苦惱煩惱講出來那我們會看情況有必要諮商的我們會請心理師或是社工員來協助"},{"start":537.788,"end":541.89,"text":"有一套現行的機制細節可以再提供給我們但我很好奇你們有沒有近年來的統計數字或者是他們提出來的協助方案內容因為我認為不會只有情緒的問題可能還有在職場現場裡面跟長官溝通的問題跟同仁溝通的問題工作量過多的問題超時加班的問題其實員工協助方案可以是全方面的"},{"start":561.499,"end":590.767,"text":"那當然我知道必須要把這個機制引入監索員工協助方案確實還需要一些時間他也需要跟外面的專業機構對話甚至可能還需要衛福部的協助那具體的內容可不可以會後再提供給我們我指的是針對員工的協助員工協助方案的數據我這邊的數據是沒有看到啦那我們會後再看看有沒有這些數據我們可以再跟你們討論到底你們想要促進哪些事情"},{"start":596.011,"end":613.207,"text":"我們去考察了城鎮我們看到那個孩子們的住宿的設防狀況真的不是太好可是我們也看到城鎮他們有在調整室內空間有相關預算跟計畫在進行不過我們其實還是普遍擔心不管是城鎮還是後續其他我們還沒有去看的"},{"start":614.047,"end":631.599,"text":"兩所矯正學校其實孩子們的住宿品質包含所有監所住宿品質我認為這件事情有機會應該要積極的提升但是關於各個監所住宿品質狀況我們今天就沒有辦法細說但是後續我們辦公室希望可以跟矯正署做更多的討論好不好"},{"start":632.58,"end":659.103,"text":"尤其是我們剛剛都發現了嘛因為詐騙案的事情不管是成人監所或者是矯正學校啊 少管所他們的收容人數都越來越高我覺得這個困境我們一起來面對好不好好 最後來下一張這個課程其實我上次跟您討論過了就是我們其實還是覺得這個課程有沒有真的可以發揮協助學生復歸社會的可能性那當然上次你已經講了"},{"start":659.724,"end":674.161,"text":"有一些因為學生來來去去你們必須要routine的進行這些事情但我們真的還是認為有討論的空間我就直白的說例如說弟子規這個在一般的學校很多家長跟很多老師就已經"},{"start":676.37,"end":693.411,"text":"認為單獨的讓學生背誦弟子規甚至讓他們非常枯燥的抄寫沒有真的可以對人的品性產生矯正的可能性那可能這些孩子在學校裡面搞不好也受過這種折磨我們現在讓他們在教校裡面還要做這個事情嗎我是先有一個問號"},{"start":694.432,"end":721.082,"text":"那當然除非你們設計的課程內容或者是你們的方法特別有經過特別教學設計課程設計活動方案真的可以促進他們去靠近這個東西否則我們整體課程看起來還是會有點擔心啦吼那我的意思是提醒說光是在課程的部分我們就可以做更多好的設計當然我知道需要專業人力的協助需要國教組的協助我們一起往這裡努力我先把問題提出來再一次的提出來好不好"},{"start":721.522,"end":744.528,"text":"好的 謝謝委員好 謝謝署長所以我大概今天幾個重點一個是人力的部分再來是員工協助的部分再來是腳效的住宿空間那這些相關資料不管是您剛剛說要提供給我們的我們都會再整理發公文給你們或者是後續有機會在兩個月內提供給我們嗎可以 可以 兩個月內那就這樣 這麼多議題我們一起努力好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時3分）謝謝主席，有請周署長。"],["主席：請周署長。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長早安。署長，我還是想繼續跟你談我們之前研究過的一些題目，雖然吳宗憲召委一直提醒我，他說你要退休了，但我相信署長一定會把所有委員關心的題目跟後續的署長交接，對嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝署長。我要先談一下，在107年的時候，當時的法務部長邱太三做了一個承諾，確實你們後續也都做到了，他說希望可以在109年達到一人一床，監所零超收，這個願景非常的好。我們往下看你們逐年收容的人數，從110年到111年、112年、113年確實都沒有超收，可是我比較好奇，到了114年5月底，這個是你們法務部的資料統計，我們還沒有針對這個索資，網站上就看得到了，5月底時已經有超額收容的問題，我比較好奇這個超額收容是怎麼造成的？我猜想會不會是因為近年來詐騙案很猖獗，各部會積極辦案的結果、積極調查的情況下，讓收容人數上升，因為我們之前看少年犯有很多確實是因為詐欺、詐騙，我不知道在成人或是其他整個統計上是不是因為這樣？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，確實詐欺犯上升到第一名，所以在人數上我們突破6萬人，我們的核定收容額是6萬552人，目前應該也是6萬出頭一點點。"],["陳委員培瑜：對啦，其實只有超收42人，比例也不高，可是我認為，如果真的是我剛剛推估的，你也說確實是因為詐騙案的關係，我們的收容人越來越多，那我認為雖然各部會已經很努力打詐，可是壞人比我們更用功、比我們更努力，他們會努力想出各式各樣的方法來詐騙，我常常聽到很多案例都覺得瞠目結舌、非常可怕，我們如何看待這個情況？後續你們有沒有什麼因應方案？"],["周署長輝煌：對於詐騙集團普遍有不勞而獲的心態，所以原則上我們會加強他的技能訓練還有相關的法制宣導。"],["陳委員培瑜：對、對，署長，我知道這是裡面教化的部分，但是超收這個部分的數字很有可能節節升高喔！"],["周署長輝煌：對於超收的部分，我們會看它的超收比例，尤其是超收超過二成以上的，我們就會積極辦理移監，原則上是從北部移到中、南部去。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你認為如果全臺灣通盤考慮，在空間上我們目前還有些餘裕，對嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：我們是可以盤點哪個地方的空間比較多，我們就把他移監到那個地方去。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但是因為法務部的這個表格是針對所有矯正機構的收容人數，我想要拜託，有沒有機會請你們幫我們提供一個統計數字是個別監所的部分？因為剛剛署長您自己提到可以北、中、南做調整，所以我也就很好奇北、中、南、東，現在所有矯正機關各自的收容人數、單獨個別的統計數字，不用現在給我，有機會可以幫我們統計嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：我們已經有比如說哪個機關超收，我們會有圓圈表示，比如說超過二成的有幾所，我們都有依照這個來參考，然後辦理移監的作業。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個數字再拜託你們給我們辦公室。"],["周署長輝煌：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：會後再提供給我們，謝謝。如果超收，我們就會比較擔心，之前也跟署長討論過關於人力的部分，其實也是希望幫所有願意進到矯正機構工作的專業員工來跟您討論，就是在人數比的部分，我上次還沒有跟您討論完，我想跟您請教，所謂教化人力，上次你們給我們的數字是1比138；戒護人力是1比11，而心社跟醫事人力，看起來那個比例會讓人感到有一點擔心，會不會所有這些矯正機關的工作人員、專業人力的工作負擔過重？我不是很確定，所以我想要請問一下，所謂教化人力，在你們的定義當中，他的工作內容、工作樣態大概有哪些？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，教化人力主要是教誨師或一些輔導員，他們主要是辦理假釋的業務或累進處遇分數的業務，當然從這個表看起來，我們的教化人力確實負擔滿重的，所以針對我們的行刑累進處遇條例在民國35年訂定，有點老舊、不合時宜的，我們會把它作為簡化考核制度，因為現行的……民國幾年……責任分數不同……打的分數每個月進級都不一樣，非常的繁瑣，我們會把它作為簡化考核制度之後，讓每個教誨師在辦理假釋或累進處遇的方面會比較有效率，而且可以減輕他的負擔，這個部分我們正在努力、積極辦理中。"],["陳委員培瑜：「正在努力」的意思就是說，你們已經在研議簡化考核的事情？"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：你們可不可以讓我們知道一下現在的進度？"],["周署長輝煌：我們原則上有在報法務部，第三次報法務部，因為我們會會相關的司處，他們都有一些意見再回來，我們會針對這個意見再做微調，是第三次了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，簡化這個流程之後，是不是會讓這個人數比看起來……人數比會降低嗎？應該不會，我們只是調整他們的工作內容。"],["周署長輝煌：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：但人數比還會是這樣。那我比較好奇第一線的教化人員有讓你們知道說，假設未來就算簡化，其實工作量還是會有點太超過？還是其實……我不是很確定……"],["周署長輝煌：簡化之後，包括累進處遇、假釋就單純化了，所以對他來說，可能原來要加班的，加班的時數就會降低了，是有實際的幫助。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們簡化的目標就是希望讓他們工作loading不要太重，然後不要每個人都過度的加班，這個簡化的過程當中，也要拜託積極聆聽第一線工作同仁的聲音，尤其是您剛剛說這些在現場第一線的教化人力，他們的需求、他們的困境、他們的狀況，我認為既然已經有在研議中，拜託你們要聽他們的聲音，我們不確定你們有沒有蒐集他們的意見。"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們都有聽取所屬機關的意見再做處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。上個禮拜還跟您討論到關於心社跟醫事人力，這個部分當然是只針對受刑人的部分，但是因為這個數字是整體所有的矯正機構，我其實還滿好奇各個矯正機構，包含少矯校、少管所或者是其他矯正機構個別的人力統計數字，這個你們有現行的統計數字嗎？可以會後提供給我們辦公室嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：這個已經有了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，個別的，我說的是個別，因為這一張……"],["周署長輝煌：心社人力跟醫事人力我們有分開來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，會後再提供給我們。"],["周署長輝煌：會後可以提供。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。我們來看一下，剛剛指的是受刑人的部分，我們現在來看一下監所員工的協助方案，因為我們所有積極的行政作為都是希望減輕現場工作人員的負擔，相關的新聞我就不再贅述，我相信署長一定知道。我上一次也問過你心理協助方案，但時間有限，我現在想要積極跟你討論，到底我們現在積極協助監所員工的協助方案內容大概有哪些？所謂的員工協助方案……"],["周署長輝煌：我們的員工協助方案是各機關的人事室在負責，包括他有情緒或有被霸凌的情形都可以提出來，至於這個案件，我們也有調查過……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們不要講個案，我希望知道的是，所有這些歸屬於矯正署底下的所有監所員工裡面，他們的協助方案大概的樣態有哪些？"],["周署長輝煌：大概的樣態，比如說他有情緒障礙，那我們人事室……如果他願意把他的苦惱、煩惱講出來，我們會看情況，有必要諮商的，我們會請心理師或社工員來協助，我們有心社人力。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以有一套現行的機制？"],["周署長輝煌：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：那細節可以再提供給我們，但我很好奇你們有沒有近年來的統計數字，或者是他們提出來的協助方案內容？因為我認為不會只有情緒的問題，可能還有在職場現場裡面跟長官溝通的問題、跟同仁溝通的問題、工作量過多的問題、超時加班的問題，其實員工協助方案可以是全方面的，當然我知道把這個機制引入監所員工協助方案確實還需要一些時間，也需要跟外面的專業機構對話，甚至可能還需要衛福部的協助，具體內容可不可以會後再提供給我們？我指的是針對員工協助。"],["周署長輝煌：員工協助方案的數據，我這邊是沒有看到這個數據。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係。"],["周署長輝煌：我們會後再看看有沒有這些數據，我們再來……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們可以再跟你們討論，到底你們想要促進哪些事情來協助監所員工，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝署長。最後一個，我們去考察了誠正國中，我們看到孩子們住宿的舍房狀況真的不是太好，可是我們也看到誠正有在調整室內空間，有相關預算跟計畫在進行，不過，我們其實還是普遍擔心，不管是誠正還是後續其他我們還沒有去看的兩所矯正學校，其實孩子們的住宿品質，包含所有監所的住宿品質，我認為這件事情有機會應該要積極地提升。關於各個監所住宿品質狀況，我們今天就沒有辦法細說，但是後續我們辦公室希望可以跟矯正署做更多的討論，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：尤其是我們剛剛都發現了，因為詐騙案的事情，不管是成人監所或者是矯正學校、少管所，它們的收容人數都越來越高，這個困境我們一起來面對好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，這個課程其實我上次跟您討論過了，我們還是覺得這個課程有沒有真的可以發揮協助學生復歸社會的可能性？當然上次你已經講了，有一些因為學生來來去去，你們必須要routine進行這些事情，但我們真的還是認為有討論的空間。我就直白地說，例如弟子規，這個在一般的學校，很多家長、很多老師就已經認為單獨的讓學生背誦弟子規，甚至讓他們非常枯燥地抄寫，沒有真的可以對人的品性產生矯正可能性，這些孩子在學校裡面搞不好也受過這種折磨，現在讓他們在矯校裡面還要做這個事情嗎？我是先有一個問號，當然除非你們設計的課程內容或者是你們的方法有特別經過課程設計活動方案，真的可以促進他們去靠近這個東西，否則我們整體課程看起來還是會讓人有點擔心。我的意思是提醒說光是在課程的部分就可以做更多好的設計，當然我知道需要專業人力的協助、需要國教署的協助，我們一起往這裡努力，我先把問題再次提出來，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長。所以我今天大概幾個重點，一個是人力的部分；再來是員工協助的部分；再來是矯校的住宿空間，這些相關資料，不管是您剛剛說要提供給我們的，我們都會再整理發公文給你們，或者是後續有機會在兩個月內提供給我們嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：可以，兩個月內。"],["陳委員培瑜：就這樣，這麼多議題我們一起努力。謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。你看我們司法及法制委員會，尤其我在當召委，一直排這麼多的考察其實是用心良苦，司法及法制委員會裡面過度的政治攻防，所以真正要去發揮監督，真的要實地去看。你看每一次議題提出來也都是督促我們行政部門，讓立法院推你們一把，來做一個督促的話，這個是好事，也希望行政部門能夠加把勁。","現在請最帥的羅智強委員來質詢。我稱讚他一下，等一下他會對你們比較好，沒騙你們。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw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- 10:12:10","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:56:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T10:12:10+08:00","duration":955,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6.51096875,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.03784375,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.20659375,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.04971875,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16.11284375,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":34.48971875,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":56.258468750000006,"end":75.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":75.73221875,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":77.68971875000001,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":78.31409375,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":83.88284375,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.69659375,"end":91.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.33721875,"end":127.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.16284375,"end":132.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.32659375,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":148.75034375,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":150.82596875000002,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.48784375,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":156.37784375,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":164.69721875000002,"end":169.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.96284375000002,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":169.75971875000002,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.34971875000002,"end":176.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.71221875,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.50534375,"end":180.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.66096875000002,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.40346875,"end":183.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.13721875000002,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":217.27971875,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":228.75471875000002,"end":250.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":251.63721875000002,"end":253.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.00846875000002,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.78034375000001,"end":257.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.96534375,"end":258.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.92284375,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":264.37784375,"end":265.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":266.23409375,"end":267.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":267.76971875000004,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.85409375,"end":268.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.34721875,"end":274.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.85721875,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.85284375000003,"end":275.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.86971875,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.70409375,"end":283.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.56471875,"end":318.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.22221875,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.54284375000003,"end":288.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.05284375,"end":325.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.27971875000003,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.24159375,"end":334.35846875000004},{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謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的"},{"start":34.574,"end":61.749,"text":"之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法"},{"start":62.609,"end":89.896,"text":"聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想那個委員也"},{"start":92.455,"end":116.625,"text":"也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些"},{"start":117.685,"end":132.394,"text":"不必要的困擾所以從Priority Seat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是"},{"start":133.636,"end":150.09,"text":"不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上來讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧"},{"start":150.891,"end":172.701,"text":"等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何您是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除"},{"start":178.903,"end":202.016,"text":"市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果"},{"start":203.257,"end":227.433,"text":"不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說"},{"start":228.854,"end":249.925,"text":"他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子"},{"start":253.82,"end":273.212,"text":"我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整"},{"start":274.944,"end":298.243,"text":"理事的意見OK 非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是Priority SeatPriority那Priority的意思就是說Those who in need只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福"},{"start":298.803,"end":318.676,"text":"他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是一個劣勢嘛劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以"},{"start":319.256,"end":337.913,"text":"所以我個人 按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外Priority Seed 英文沒問題吧但是我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我建議可能可以增加增加 你要增加土對 沒錯 那我們來看下一張來 部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷"},{"start":342.523,"end":371.072,"text":"北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Please give your seat to those in need您好請發揮愛心大家為優先女后宿舍入客謝謝"},{"start":376.495,"end":397.39,"text":"所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的"},{"start":398.49,"end":419.635,"text":"剛剛次長有提到巴黎 倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本名古屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵 右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有 它有增加一個"},{"start":420.675,"end":440.754,"text":"尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法"},{"start":441.815,"end":464.197,"text":"因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":465.559,"end":473.449,"text":"這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好 到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的好謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為"},{"start":485.807,"end":509.483,"text":"這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升"},{"start":510.564,"end":533.796,"text":"是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的"},{"start":535.057,"end":549.31,"text":"至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何"},{"start":550.865,"end":575.655,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政治防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今"},{"start":577.135,"end":599.05,"text":"又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有他的成效"},{"start":600.471,"end":627.189,"text":"我這邊給你看一下滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下"},{"start":629.671,"end":654.704,"text":"你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為"},{"start":655.865,"end":673.893,"text":"你剛剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些raw data這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嗎他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的"},{"start":674.946,"end":696.967,"text":"好 包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在當然跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病後面的死亡率降低"},{"start":697.808,"end":716.75,"text":"所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加"},{"start":719.412,"end":745.448,"text":"其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持"},{"start":745.908,"end":771.604,"text":"不過這個部分人事的這個部分特別請那個代理市長回答一下市長可以簡單的講一下嗎跟委員報告我們的這個心理健康支持方案從去年的8月1號開始我們有擴大到這個我們服務的一個年齡但是除了心理健康師這邊推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案譬如說勞動部也有針對勞工的部分勞動部做得很不好"},{"start":771.744,"end":788.42,"text":"我已經諮詢過兩次國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個"},{"start":791.983,"end":812.95,"text":"原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我也跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說"},{"start":814.631,"end":830.025,"text":"青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業工會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情"},{"start":830.746,"end":860.386,"text":"就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了他因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以他跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢他比較順著他的意思所以他最後就去執行了這件事情"},{"start":860.986,"end":883.524,"text":"所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好 這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":889.244,"end":896.872,"text":"好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的"},{"start":900.336,"end":925.292,"text":"會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬"},{"start":927.923,"end":949.336,"text":"我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年青生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時56分）謝謝主席，謝謝各位委員，我們請邱部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我們今天要審查身障權法第五十三條，其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者，這個當然是很有必要，因為生理痛或是我們看不見、隱形的不舒服都需要座位，所以把它入法，本席認為是好的。但之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問，媒體有訪問您，為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等，您講到的一個理由是，你覺得這樣做可以體現社會的愛與包容，讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐，衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整，形成我們臺灣人愛與關懷的美好風景。但是我聽完你剛剛那一段的說法，聽起來好像比較像是博愛耶，因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思，博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷、友愛，還有同舟共濟的精神，社會成員之間的團結跟互助，反而不是要把它改為優先席，所以對於這個名稱，至今你有沒有什麼想法？"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員也是常到各國去，也很有經驗，像日本也是叫做priority，我想這個看起來是國際的一個趨勢，今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常好，我個人非常感動，你講得非常清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：那個部分就是因為要避免產生一些不必要的困擾，所以改為priority seat這個部分先做起，這樣比較能夠按照實際上的需求，也不要互相在那邊引起不必要的爭議啦，真的讓有需要者可以坐。但是不要忘記，這樣的一個幫忙，這樣的一個體貼，還是存有體貼在裡面，愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的，所以精神不變，可是我們實務上讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧。"],["陳委員菁徽：等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的作法，等一下再跟部長一起討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們可以來討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：另外，也想知道說，現在有兩個版本，分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本，想要問部長，您的立場為何？你是想要刪除，或是您覺得可以不用刪除？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，今天如果是照多數委員的建議版本，如果它加進了其他有實際需求，其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺，它就等於包含了，也就是它是有一個例示性的效果，不管它將來是不是保留，未來在實際執行面的時候，都會以不管是可見或者這些隱形的需求者為使用的對象，所以等一下在討論的時候，可以尊重大家一些討論的方向。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我們先看一下現在很多國內、國外的作法，這是高鐵的作法，我們去查了高鐵官網上的介紹，說這個「博愛座」是禮讓年長者、懷孕，還有行動不便的旅客優先入座，並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給身心障礙人士。如果像剛剛司長講的，你們真的把這4個字從身權法裡面刪掉，您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎？還是保持原來這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：如果我們大家針對這名詞已經有共識，我相信交通部的處理就會按照這樣的精神做整體的……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以針對這些圖示及網站上的解說，是要刪還是不要刪？"],["邱部長泰源：交通單位是會配合調整，我請呂次長說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的意見。其實我們在國外看到大概通常是priority seat，而priority的意思就是those in need，只要你有需求都可以坐，這第一個重點；第二個，在國外其實他們都會明列很多很多類似簡報上的這種圖示，不限於這三項，如果你去巴黎或是法蘭克福，我的印象大概會出現5到6種，但這只是個列示，列示主要是針對disability（身心障礙者）、pregnant（懷孕者），還有比較虛弱的老人，但是如果其他有需求者也都可以坐，所以按照各國的經驗，我們大概除了改名稱之外，priority seat英文沒問題嘛！我們現在只是改成「優先座」，但是列示的部分，我建議可以增加。"],["陳委員菁徽：你們要增加圖？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。可以增加圖片。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。部長，我們來看一下簡報，這個是北捷會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客，請聽廣播。","（播放音檔）"],["陳委員菁徽：這是在解釋禮讓給需要的旅客，他們的圖示及Q版標示，其實都有包含你們剛提到想要刪除的老弱婦孺，所以基本上你們剛講的是要增加圖示，還是有涵蓋原本的這四個項目嘛！因為不得不說，他們真的需求量比較高。","剛剛次長有提到巴黎及倫敦等等，我們來看其他國家，簡報左上角是日本名古屋機場電車優先席的圖示、左下角是韓國地鐵、右邊是英國倫敦地鐵，他們其實都有涵蓋老弱婦孺，但也許他們還有增加身心障礙者，他們有增加一個……"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：尤其在日本還有增加身心障礙者，而原本的老弱婦都是被涵蓋進去的，所以有需求的人不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺，這個座位不應該變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架，我建議貴部是不是考量去做加法，而不是去做減法？因為與其把舊的東西刪除掉，而是應該去加強宣導實質的需求，讓全部的人有正確的觀念，是不是把這刪掉就可以把所有的紛爭隔除，你們真的是這樣覺得嗎？或者你們可以考慮加法的方式，增加擴充的文字以加強去宣導，你們覺得怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們尊重委員們的討論，加法看起來有一些先進國家也是用這樣方式在處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們到時候再來逐條討論，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。下一個問題，這個新聞想必在前兩週全國都非常的關注，因為國人前10名的死因已經很久沒有自殺，但到今年發現15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升，尤其大家又更在意的，像臺灣大學中信兒家研究中心有發現針對青少年輕生的比例，從2021年每10萬人是4.5人輕生上升到2023年每10萬人是7人輕生，臺大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現，青少年的輕生率上升與父母的離婚率增加、網路的使用率，還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關，就是有正相關，同時也分析他們的自殺原因是非常多元和複雜的，我想要知道你們看到15到64歲的自殺率全面上升，你們對於各年齡層自殺原因的分析為何？還有希望提供的解方為何？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員關心。我們在14年前，我們當時很努力成立了自殺防治中心，我也是憂鬱症防治協會創始的理事，所以我們對自殺能夠離開十大死因，真的是非常高興。如今又重回十大死因，我們當然深切在檢討，因為我們這幾年已經很努力在做心理健康支持，譬如從去年下半年，我們增加了心理支持的年齡層，感覺這個的滿意度都很高，也應該有它的成效。"],["陳委員菁徽：我這邊給你看一下，滿意度很高沒錯，但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的，因此你們在8月1日有舉辦了一個活動，說要擴大它的年齡層，所以你們又把它延伸到45歲，我也有去參加這個8月1日的活動，雖然我個人對這個健康支持方案是很支持，但是你仔細觀察這個數據，你看一下，你覺得要擴大人數，所以一口氣你們增加了15歲，可是平均每月的服務量其實是減少的，這個很奇怪，你們一口氣增加15歲，應該服務量能要增加才對，結果從112年月均服務三千多人到最近月均是2,189人，是不是應該要去深究到底為什麼？因為你剛剛講15到64歲，應該去分析一些raw data，這些高齡者有沒有跟慢性病有相關及性別的比例分布是如何等等，有沒有一些其他科別的就醫紀錄？這些都是可以從衛福部的database很簡單就可以抓出來的。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們都是醫療人員，我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生題材來做相關的研究，所以這樣的一個變化，當然我們初步了解，像原本在十大死因裡面的COVID-19，現在跳到12名，因為我們在腎臟各方面的疾病及糖尿病方面的死亡數有降低，所以變成原本排在第11名的自殺死因就往前了，當然這部分絕對要檢討，等一下看司長針對這個部分的數字有沒有要說明的？我們會很努力來做，服務人數看起來是有增加，但是真的……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有啦！實際上沒有增加。"],["邱部長泰源：其實我們對於心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣，自殺防治是很複雜的，它有很多的原因，所以我們在場的很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法，這個部分應該要整體性的來落實，我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該整體一起來做，不是只有靠心理健康支持。關於人數的部分，我可不可以請代理司長回答一下？"],["陳委員菁徽：司長可以簡單的講一下嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，我們這個心理健康支持方案從去年8月1日開始有擴大我們服務的年齡。但是除了心理健康司推動的這個心理健康支持方案之外，其實其他的部會也有在推動心理健康支持方案，譬如勞動部有針對勞工的部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：勞動部做得很不好，我已經質詢過2次了。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：國防部也有針對他們的國軍的部分，以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分，所以有關於心理健康支持的方案，相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣在努力，我們在不同的場域都是有持續的推動。至於有關於原因的部分，剛剛委員有特別提到，其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析，包含自殺死亡、自殺通報，跟我們心理健康支持的方案及其他資料的串聯後來分析，這個我們心健司也會持續來做。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，之後我會跟你們追這個報告。這邊也建議，因為我有在媒體上看到司長發言表示，青少年的自殺並非單一的原因，所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業公會合作，加強在臉書、Dcard等等使用率高的社群平臺去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進。但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情，青少年現在使用AI的比例非常高，用AI成為他們的心理支持，甚至今天很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中，其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低。這是網路上實際發生的狀況，而這個母親已經提起訴訟，因為他的小孩本來就有憂鬱的傾向，他跟一位AI機器人聊天，聊天後AI比較順著他的意思，所以他最後就去執行了這件事情。我是希望衛福部可以去掌握對網路平臺的自殺防治宣導，可能你要與時俱進，加進AI的部分，現在很多青少年交了AI的男友或是女友，甚至還會在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒，希望他們不要休假，他要跟網路的男友、女友一起跨年。"],["邱部長泰源：這個是很重要的議題，我們一定來研議怎麼樣處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後想問一下，有3個承諾也是很多人關心的：第一，就是心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續？"],["邱部長泰源：會的、會的。"],["陳委員菁徽：會繼續，所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據，提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務。再來，針對通訊的諮商，因為後來發現青少年的可近性也是很重要，尤其是在晚上、深夜，或者是有些比較內向的，他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動，是不是考慮可以增加這樣的彈性去研擬？"],["邱部長泰源：只要是對人民的健康有幫助的方向，我們一定來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後，提醒您要在兩個月內給我1份書面報告，因為剛剛有講，青少年輕生有3個原因，還有潛在AI可能造成的風險，再請您提供1份書面報告，並不是只有心理支持方案去處理這些議題，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a70a395a87108bfadb9483b76f331b600b1c1f5e093a47950a554a5522fe1698e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:40:13 - 09:56:08","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:40:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T09:56:08+08:00","duration":955,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.22471875,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.523468750000001,"end":7.9790937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.36721875,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.797218750000003,"end":11.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.657218750000002,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.69096875,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.15409375,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.33159375,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.359718750000006,"end":57.304718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.60846875,"end":64.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.45534375,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.71596875,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.27659375,"end":91.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.63284375,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.47659375,"end":102.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.49159375,"end":121.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.10471875,"end":158.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.82471875000002,"end":183.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.91784375,"end":219.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.46909375,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.62346875,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.97784375,"end":263.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.25159375000004,"end":269.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.62221875,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.64284375,"end":282.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.15159375,"end":281.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.05846875000003,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.74909375000004,"end":291.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.66346875,"end":303.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.22409375,"end":303.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.08471875000004,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.32284375,"end":320.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.50409375000004,"end":321.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.09034375000005,"end":362.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.72534375000004,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.85159375,"end":379.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.00971875000005,"end":379.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.95471875000004,"end":380.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.00534375,"end":380.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.29221875,"end":380.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.37659375000004,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.61284375,"end":382.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.83221875000004,"end":382.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.38471875000005,"end":388.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.45221875000004,"end":383.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.15596875,"end":391.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.51409375000003,"end":404.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.28846875000005,"end":410.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.85284375000003,"end":428.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.70034375,"end":414.9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訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要 評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講"},{"start":37.901,"end":66.718,"text":"我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊"},{"start":67.56,"end":79.653,"text":"免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念"},{"start":81.312,"end":110.047,"text":"審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群"},{"start":110.629,"end":121.099,"text":"我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有落實所以本席要問是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等"},{"start":122.125,"end":146.393,"text":"好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己"},{"start":147.494,"end":165.154,"text":"政府的努力 人民要有信心那國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善而身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法"},{"start":166.235,"end":183.034,"text":"那第五十條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第五十條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者 葬友本人為服務對象"},{"start":184.235,"end":206.103,"text":"補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務"},{"start":208.386,"end":219.766,"text":"相較之下 現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿 帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下 帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持"},{"start":220.523,"end":244.325,"text":"好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個CRPD裡面我們最主要是社區市"},{"start":244.905,"end":268.392,"text":"的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會抓什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大"},{"start":270.144,"end":287.657,"text":"所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員"},{"start":288.502,"end":300.535,"text":"可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安你整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理"},{"start":304.179,"end":318.494,"text":"所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以"},{"start":319.395,"end":337.424,"text":"問一下部長 公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年 帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人"},{"start":343.187,"end":361.712,"text":"平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低"},{"start":362.742,"end":376.981,"text":"好謝謝委員,我想那個對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的就是傳息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視"},{"start":378.082,"end":403.02,"text":"政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包委員我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70%"},{"start":404.361,"end":427.814,"text":"市長那是真的是懂得了解的人 否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身障障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目服務人數各自要達到多少"},{"start":429.115,"end":438.022,"text":"現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項嘛那個人助理事項是授權執法"},{"start":453.914,"end":479.478,"text":"那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格這樣多樣那"},{"start":480.018,"end":501.256,"text":"並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理"},{"start":502.694,"end":519.461,"text":"我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們 身上團體們他們的調查不提供洗澡的22%是最多"},{"start":519.961,"end":546.018,"text":"最少的就是不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才第608位各助而已"},{"start":546.818,"end":563.675,"text":"那我不知道对于各住的人的提升的问题你们还有没有什么其他策略是 包委员我想委员知道就是说个人助理跟长照其实事实上它的目的是不一样那个长照顾名思义主要是生活照顾是但是个人助理这边主要是社会参与"},{"start":564.495,"end":589.082,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎"},{"start":589.642,"end":613.576,"text":"八五委任我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多的一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助 謝謝那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照"},{"start":614.369,"end":614.729,"text":"所以想問部長說"},{"start":634.649,"end":651.861,"text":"這兩套評估制度有落差的問題 上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出 今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過 已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎報告委員 我們現在目前"},{"start":653.786,"end":668.08,"text":"我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一些gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47%"},{"start":670.26,"end":687.065,"text":"我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題"},{"start":689.575,"end":711.102,"text":"對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些"},{"start":714.483,"end":742.568,"text":"不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在召集我現在目前社家屬這邊有關什麼時候可以去解決這個問題包圍我們現在什麼時候討論我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾次計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合整合的部分另外一個就是"},{"start":743.368,"end":767.279,"text":"剛我念了各住的一些資格裡邊是跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些落差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話"},{"start":767.859,"end":797.139,"text":"那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就成為我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在"},{"start":797.939,"end":823.224,"text":"他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大我同樣是這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的"},{"start":824.224,"end":846.532,"text":"那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他零有這個工作的話可以讓他有分收入所以"},{"start":847.592,"end":863.29,"text":"問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":864.506,"end":885.196,"text":"我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包括委員這個確實我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加的專業化的方向中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮"},{"start":886.196,"end":905.698,"text":"然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升"},{"start":906.298,"end":931.261,"text":"量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定"},{"start":932.122,"end":948.213,"text":"各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時40分）主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。今天早上身心障礙團體在臺北市議會召開記者會，訴求自立生活申請應有合理標準，時數評估應該要透明，且強烈控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心。為什麼這麼講？一個24小時都需要人從旁全力協助者，而委員會委員竟然問，家人為什麼不幫忙處理？當家人都已經要24小時照顧時，總需要一個喘息時間吧？甚至還說，你們爭取自立生活時數是為了成為英雄，所以不能夠讓他得逞，免得各地的障礙者都群起效仿。部長，如果各地委員會都如此缺乏人權觀念，審查門檻又高，審查黑箱、服務斷裂，讓障礙者生活得沒尊嚴，這樣是否符合CRPD的精神？當然不符合！社會福利的提供，本來就必須依據被照顧者的需求程度給予足夠的服務，不要漏接任何一個人，更不要去羞辱任何一個人！所有的障礙都是社會造成的，是制度造成的，竟有審查委員如此羞辱政府應該有責任照顧卻又一直未能落實照顧的這群人。本席要問的是，在資源布建緩慢的狀況下，到底要怎麼實現平等？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，不管在衛政或醫政，其實國家及政府都很注重，尤其就社政來說，這是應該有的權益，故我們以此為立足點來努力。至於成果，像5月在日內瓦WHA大會召開期間，我們就呈現我們在社會福利上的努力，也得到各國的肯定。我想對於政府的努力，人民要有信心，國家的發展好還要更好，如果有任何一項做不好的，我們也會很謙卑地去改善。"],["林委員月琴：身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正，但本法第五十條所規定的自立生活服務這十年來始終是不夠的。以本法第五十條規定身心障礙者自立生活相關之社區支持為例，在身心障礙者照顧服務資源布建計畫中提到，以障友本人為服務對象，補助據點跟人事費用，提供法定服務跟創新服務。部長，到今年為止，身心障礙者服務機構只有266家，公立的只有12家，其他239家為私立跟公設民營機構，且多數為住宿型機構，生活重建機構才7家而已，福利服務中心20家，服務1.6萬人。相較之下，現金補助對象是96.3萬人，但除了發現金跟提供住宿外，障友們所得到的服務項目少之又少。請問障友還可以得到什麼樣的支持？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員提出這些數據讓我們來做研議跟檢討。這部分，我是不是請呂次長幫忙回答？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這部分的關心。誠如委員剛才所說，我們在這部分有幾點說明。首先，在CRPD中，我們希望能夠擴建社區式服務，這是最重要的。至於涵蓋率，我跟委員報告，到2028年為止，我們希望可以達到29.02%的目標。不過去年的涵蓋率已經大概達到24%，所以我們現在是穩步前進，委員剛剛所說涵蓋率的問題，我們會趕快……"],["林委員月琴：時間點大概會抓什麼時候？為什麼？因為我們去看過長照跟身障，發現事實落差非常大，所以希望你們的速度應該要快一點！為什麼？對於需要生活自立、需要資源的障友們來說，幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務。不過我剛剛提到，我希望審查委員可以有CRPD的精神，而不是在委員會議中讓身障者坐立難安15分鐘，且整個都用羞辱式的語言！所以拜託一下，也請你們儘早處理。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，如果有這種情況發生，我們是絕對不允許的……"],["林委員月琴：這問題當然不是只有個助……現在除了發現金以外，其實個助才是比較實際的服務。但根據身障團體調查，有七成障友們所獲得的個助時數是不足的！部長，公共服務的貧瘠限制了障友的期待，本法推動10年，障友們各項資源都缺乏，以致現在只能對個助的時數提出要求，並期待增加時數。問題是：全國能提供服務的個助只有608位，而獲得服務的障友只有1,096人，平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務，請問你們怎麼理解這問題？時數真的非常低！我剛剛提到，有些人24小時都需要人力協助，如果家人已經付出大半時間，那麼有時候真的需要一個替代人手幫忙，可是你們所能提供的服務時數又非常低！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。對於照顧者的照顧，即喘息服務，也是未來政府很重視的部分，如長照3.0就非常重視這點，所以政府在這部分……"],["林委員月琴：現在長照所提供的服務遠比身心障礙者來得更完整。"],["邱部長泰源：但兩者其實可以並用，可否請呂次長補充一下？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，三個重點說明：第一，臺灣與日本相較，日本只能二擇一，而臺灣的身心障礙者可以使用長照服務，也可以使用個人助理。至於使用率方面，如果有重疊的話，我記得應該有70%。"],["林委員月琴：次長，這要真的懂且了解的人才有可能，但大部分身障者所了解的只有身障服務。確實，了解的人會將身障與長照並用……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：所以我還是要問，什麼時候才能落實本法第五十條規定之多元服務？身心障礙者照顧服務布建計畫五年的目標可以產出哪些服務？服務人數與個助可以達到多少？"],["呂次長建德：有關個人助理這部分，我知道團體及各界都非常關心。跟委員報告，本部目前的修正草案有增訂第五十條之一，即增加一條專門的修正。現行的第五十條有十項，至於個人助理則授權子法處理。但現在為了回應民間的要求，所以以第五十條之一的方式來處理自立生活跟個助這部分，跟委員報告。"],["林委員月琴：法律規定個助需具備教保員、訓練員、生活服務員、照顧服務員、家庭托顧服務員或臨時及短期照顧服務員資格，非常多樣，而其實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧、身體照顧跟家事服務。部長，根據團體調查顯示，有7%的個助不提供外出服務，另外，身體照顧與家事服務也有不願意提供的狀況。所以我想請問，在各縣市個助服務項目不一致的前提下，你們怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：當然要取得共識，不能讓不同的縣市有不同的服務狀況！我相信這部分我們都有在努力，呂次要不要說明一下？"],["林委員月琴：但這是身障團體所調查的，像不提供洗澡服務的最多，有22%，最少的則是不提供外出，有時候甚至連就醫都被拒絕！所以我想問，既然服務人員不夠，那麼量能就沒有辦法提升，所以雖然個人助理的薪資從去年調升到每小時250元，並補助勞健保，可是這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格者來從事個助工作？畢竟現在才608位個助而已。對於提升個助人數的問題，你們有沒有其他策略？"],["呂次長建德：我想委員也知道，個人助理跟長照的目的是不一樣的！長照顧名思義主要是生活照顧……"],["林委員月琴：是。"],["呂次長建德：至於個人助理，主要是社會參與，所以我們以彼此之間、兩者……我們會以整合兩者為主，不過這又牽涉第二個問題。剛剛委員提到個助的數量及品質問題，在數量部分，我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA，這部分……"],["林委員月琴：可是現在薪資已經提高到250了，有吸引到更多人嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，當然這部分我們會來強化，我們現在還有一個作法，就是只要他受訓25小時，就可以來擔任我們的個人助理，我想這個部分也會對於身心障礙者，在很多的社會參與上面來說，會有很大的幫助，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：新北市政府整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照服務的居家服務資源，可是實務上發生先天軟骨不全症障友具有申請個助的資格，可是在長照照顧服務需求等級評估卻只有二級的奇怪現象，這個問題我上次有質詢過，所以想問部長，這兩套評估制度有落差的問題，上次我就有質詢過，請問今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎？因為上次已經質詢過，現在已經有具體的解決方式嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在正在整合有關於身心障礙跟長照，我同意目前確實有些gap，但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解，我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面，身心障礙者大概占47%，我們主要的長照使用者，身心障礙者的比例其實快要一半啦。"],["林委員月琴：次長，我想講的是，在評估時，長照跟身障評估同樣的人，也就是狀況是一樣的，結果評估的等級事實上卻不同，我要請你們去解決這個問題。"],["呂次長建德：對，但是我想委員你也了解，長照要使用時，其實最重要的是CMS嘛，就是你必須要符合disability失能的部分，你才能夠來申請。至於身心障礙的話，這裡面其實主要是各個面向，除了生活照顧之外，另外還有其他，包括他的整個社會參與，還有像就學、就醫等等這些不同的層面，所以這兩邊整個評估的指標，其實還是略略有一些不一樣啦。"],["林委員月琴：可是落差非常的大耶！"],["呂次長建德：是、是、是，我了解，所以我現在正在召集，目前社家署這邊有關身心障礙……"],["林委員月琴：大概什麼時候可以解決這個問題？你們什麼時候討論完成？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我們現在長照3.0也準備在明年上路嘛，其中有幾支計畫裡面，確實有一個部分就是有關於身心障礙者跟長照這邊的資源，還有各項整合的部分。"],["林委員月琴：另外一個問題，我剛剛唸了個助的一些資格裡面，事實上跟長照服務法對於照顧人員的資格認定，都有一些落差，甚至名稱不同的話，還會影響到他們的權益，所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的就應該謹慎。你們何時會針對人力資格去檢討並做整合？因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話，當身障跟長照這邊人員的資格都已經不相容的話，你們什麼時候可以做檢討？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，就誠如我剛剛說的，我們現在在3.0裡面會把長照跟身障這邊，在整個服務資格，還有人員的部分，我們來做整合，但是我要強調，中間的一個區別在於長照主要還是生活照顧嘛，個助則是社會參與，譬如剛剛委員有提到他們在記者會上有提到，就是他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些，那其實主要還是屬於長照這邊，這並不是屬於個助要負責的工作，這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下。"],["林委員月琴：可是人員資格的部分也不能落差到太大啊……"],["呂次長建德：我了解。"],["林委員月琴：甚至同樣是這樣的學經歷背景，跑到另外一個地方的時候，就反而變成是資格不太符合的，如果是生活照顧的話，應該事實上要是一樣的。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["林委員月琴：在自立生活支持的服務底下，除了個助以外，事實上還有同儕支持員的服務，同儕支持員服務其實是具兩面性，他同時對於障友可以提供陪伴跟支持服務，可是也因為他具有身障的身分，而且他領有這個工作的話，可以讓他有一份收入，所以想問一下部長，這部法推動10年了，同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化、職業化，甚至補助每小時230元的服務費，而且不補助勞健保的費用，同儕支持員不被視為勞工，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員提出這樣一個專業化，職業化，是一個很正向，也應該要這樣做的，我們都落實……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個部分確實啦，我們會來朝向這個目標，這個確實也應該要讓它朝更專業化的方向去做。"],["林委員月琴：你們要可能去考慮啦，否則的話，中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到損傷，這些情況可能要去考慮。然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員共計208人，提供服務的時數共計4,471小時，可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時，服務量能非常低，比個助還要低，難道你們不認為這一項應該是要大力提升量能的服務項目嗎？我覺得這部分是不是你們接下來應該要去做的？因為我認為這個事實上是一份職業，又可以有助於障友的就業，為何勞動條件只給半套？所以請你們趕快做檢討，然後也希望這個部分的人力使用應該要提升量次。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["林委員月琴：最後，當然就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目，還有明確訂定個助的工作內容是什麼，不會被拒絕說，可能外出服務就醫部分不提供，並加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的整合，還有推動同儕支持員的專業化跟職業化。以上，麻煩。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們往這個方向來努力。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員的詢答。","接下來請陳菁徽委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91ad3dcca4ba3d6f405b85017248ed72d8db1c1f5e093a479502dd89391cbd2639a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:59:30 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我想請一下經濟部郭智慧部長還有我們交通部林國賢長賜 林市長郭部長好另外一個美國供給了伊朗的核設施 確實大家都非常的關心那我在想說確實也有很多委員都提到了就是對於這個"},{"start":33.035,"end":50.171,"text":"伊朗它封鎖了赫姆澤海峽之後會對整個台灣產生的影響那我在想說赫姆澤海峽大概全球大概四分之一到五分之一的石油跟天然氣都經過這邊那台灣進口的石油跟天然氣有多少是經過赫姆澤海峽"},{"start":51.071,"end":61.679,"text":"報告委員根據我們的統計大概20%的油會有一些影響25%的氣會有一些影響所以台灣進口25%的氣會產生影響因為目前整個台灣的發電結構當中的時候超過五成都是天然氣發電我們有沒有推演這個部分的時候大概會對台灣的電價壓力產生多大的一個壓力"},{"start":78.527,"end":105.675,"text":"現在還沒有到五成是起OK 還沒有出來好 那因為你剛剛有特別提到說就中油這邊其實整個經濟部還有整個行政院體系對於整個原油價格從80塊到130塊都有去做一些模型的一個推演對不對那我想就針對這個部分的時候我們推演出來的數字當中的時候當原油價格在80塊的時候對我們的CPI大概會影響多少因為通膨確實是民眾每個都有感的"},{"start":106.115,"end":131.851,"text":"到130塊的時候對我們的CPI大概會影響到多少他range大概在什麼樣的部分可不可以請部長回應一下是喔 報告委員我想我們這一部分就是說為什麼行政院要針對這個面題可以高度的關注也就是說因為我們怕影響到整個物價指數所以我們這一部分裡面就會研擬出一些影響的變數當然我們在影響變數無法控制它價格一直往上走的時候"},{"start":132.931,"end":159.053,"text":"變成中油開始吸收這裡面的這個差額所以為什麼就像我再回應一下過去為什麼我們有很多需要國營事業來穩定物價也就是說當我們碰到這項衝擊的事項的時候那政府都會考慮到整個的這個物價影響然後會要求我們中油或者要求我們台電要能夠吸收這一些因為漲價"},{"start":160.534,"end":179.181,"text":"因為戰爭或者是大的這個變故所影響的這個價格所以這一部分其實是我們在討論在討論的時候就不是只有經濟部或者是中油公司或者台電公司他們自己提出來他只是把這個提出來的現象但是我想行政院他會綜合考量"},{"start":179.841,"end":204.068,"text":"然後透過這個可能是福利相關的這個措施或者是其他的補助援助的這個方法來做整合的部長謝謝因為我讓你很長時間把這個部分把它說明完成所以我這邊本席認為說如果說對於整個原油價格暴漲的時候我們政府對於整個CPI的部分有沒有說政策性要把它控制在幾%以下"},{"start":205.669,"end":212.096,"text":"報告委員我們這邊的這個數字是這樣子就是說對這個油價如果上漲10%那麼對CPR的影響是0.3那如果是電價來講的話那麼我們平均電價上漲1%那麼對CPR影響大概0.027%"},{"start":226.932,"end":254.99,"text":"我們這樣就比較容易去推論從80塊到130塊大概會影響多大謝部長很具體給這個一個答案出來我想接下來我想問一下交通部的林長賜針對我們今天的主題就是因應高齡化社會我國智慧公共運具發展跟目標這個部分我想特別請教一下交通部因為我們看到整個目前整個"},{"start":256.932,"end":268.841,"text":"國道駕駛 國道運輸的駕駛的時候據說到十萬塊都還找不到人那為什麼會這樣子 江部這邊有沒有什麼因應的方式"},{"start":270.849,"end":293.7,"text":"包委員確實目前大客車公車駕駛缺的很多你知道資料有沒有錯我們目前像這個到10萬塊都還找不到所以可能公務局這邊就是加碼來補助各業者來徵才第二個當然也透過學校透過各種機構去看有沒有願意來接受駕訓的來源"},{"start":296.481,"end":322.671,"text":"那又部長因為你這樣回答基本上對於整個具體現場當中碰到的問題感覺好像沒有真正打到這個痛點因為我們目前整個職業駕照分成小型客車大貨車大客車還有連結車大概有四種的一個職業駕照那麼大客車這個部分的時候他們同時可以去開大貨車跟小型客貨車所以大客車為什麼找不到人是因為很多的大客車駕駛他們都去"},{"start":324.926,"end":331.737,"text":"開了小型客貨車去開計程車所以目前出現的一個情況很特別就是國道"},{"start":332.796,"end":355.2,"text":"的司機他們跑到市區因為市區的公車他們壓力比較小然後整個工作的一個環境也比較好對於國道的那個駕駛的情況的時候可是呢我們就碰到了另外一個問題就是像比方說計程車司機他們就很多人要去開他們希望說70歲還可以再把他往延後"},{"start":356.101,"end":372.719,"text":"可是國道交通這邊就完全找不到司機這樣的一個情況但市區公車其實也找不到也找不到人那為什麼會有這樣的情況就是我不知道專務部這邊有沒有做一個研究怎麼樣的一個情況導致這樣的事情發生那我們要怎麼樣去去因應"},{"start":374,"end":399.796,"text":"包委員確實您的觀察也很明確目前的趨勢大概就是從國道客運往市區公車走那大客車往職業駕駛或者是小客車走主要原因就您剛提的主要的是工作時間的彈性跟壓力那各位看到最近的報導裡面尤其是市區公車或公路客運有時候駕駛會面臨交通阻塞乘客抱怨甚至有一些比較不理性乘客會直接"},{"start":400.757,"end":423.528,"text":"那所以說針對這個部分就是本席也稍微去了解了一下其實就是說以目前來說為什麼國道駕駛就是這麼缺人的情況大概簡單三個一個跟吃飯有關一個跟上廁所有關一個跟整個職業傷害有關那這三點的部分的時候我不知道就是我們交通部有沒有跨部會去跟其他的部會來溝通要怎麼樣來解決這個問題"},{"start":427.323,"end":429.992,"text":"報委員我是不是請供應司 林市長跟您報一下"},{"start":431.417,"end":459.996,"text":"各位報告剛剛委員所提到這幾個課題大概確實是屬於這一個大客車駕駛一切相關日常環境所碰到的部分那這個部分的話交通部跟地方政府大概分幾個層面來做處理第一個部分就是這個路當然這個缺點就要這一個加強帳目這一個人員來做這個投入那第二個部分的話是希望做路線的這個優化那第三個一個部分的話大概就是場站還有相關這個駕駛工時排班的這一個合理性"},{"start":462.617,"end":476.442,"text":"謝謝 現在你這個回應當中大家都還算是一個整個政策確實也是要這樣去做可是我們今天是針對整個那個高齡化社會的那個公共運具的問題的時候所以我想請教一下我們經濟部部長"},{"start":478.203,"end":504.11,"text":"因為剛剛提到這三個問題一個是就是吃飯的問題一個是提到了上廁所的一個問題第三個問題提到了一個他們職業傷害的問題那我們現在看到經濟部提出來的一個報告當中的時候大概都是提到我們要怎麼樣提高移運的效率那麼要強化行車安全跟優化電動巴士的能源管理等等的一些相關的問題可是沒有具體提到了這三個痛點"},{"start":505.23,"end":525.435,"text":"所以我想請教一下部長針對這三個痛點我們在做這樣子新的一個高齡化的一個相關運具的時候有沒有怎麼樣的方式可以去做一個配合跟調整我們將回去以後呢來考慮這些使用者他們的情境然後再加以提出一個比較完整的這個措施"},{"start":526.235,"end":554.269,"text":"OK部長你知道簡單回應可是沒有很具體我大概很簡單講到一個部分如果說是針對那個吃飯的問題的時候因為我們現在有些輔助駕駛的問題那如果在輔助駕駛因為通常會卡到吃飯都是因為塞車那我們如果有些輔助駕駛是不是同時可以配合一些相關的一個修法的時候在什麼樣的情況之下讓他們在塞車很長時間的時候也許可以同時吃飯"},{"start":555.955,"end":573.804,"text":"這個是一個點輔助駕駛加上法規的一個鬆綁這個部分這個部分針對洗手間的部分的時候我們現在設計新的巴士的時候是不是有可能就是在新的巴士當中讓駕駛他們有一個自己的駕駛室那也許可以有一個簡便的一個"},{"start":575.385,"end":598.719,"text":"便盆可以去因應或者是有一個比方說小型的一個洗手間讓所有的這個高齡化的人他們也很需要洗手間這可以在設計的時候同時把它規劃進來那麼第三個部分的時候就職業傷害的部分因為勞動部這邊他們就是也直接表示就是那個台北醫院他們也表示一個狀態他們有哪些的問題那麼我們也希望"},{"start":599.099,"end":623.779,"text":"如果在同時在設計這樣子新型的一個載具當中的時候也同時能夠讓他們有比較好的一個環境比方說包括方向盤的一個重採油門的重還有座位的高等等的問題讓他們在整個職業傷害能夠降低也許能夠解決這個部分好不好謝謝委員吹詢這個部分我想我們把這個您所吹詢的這個部分納入我們一些這個考慮的部分"},{"start":624.659,"end":647.914,"text":"最後一部分因為上禮拜的時候又發生了一個電動巴士失火的問題針對電動巴士失火這個問題的時候不知道經濟部這邊有沒有怎麼樣解決然後對於整個鋰電池的失火相關的問題的時候我們是不是會有更完整的SOP或者是有新的研發的一些滅火的素材能夠來因應鋰電池失火的問題"},{"start":649.295,"end":669.758,"text":"是謝謝委員指導我想這個部分因為現在起火的原因還在等這個國家運安會的調查那我想我們真正的了解這些鋰電池產生的這個花火那這個就可以針對只要是鋰電池產生的這個火源啊如何來對它有效的這個滅火這個部分我們都會考慮"},{"start":670.359,"end":698.861,"text":"OK 那我們希望說因為鋰電池也是新興科技的狀態我們怎麼滅火能夠有一個新興的科技來去做一個因應我覺得也非常重要那麼也希望我們經濟部能夠就全球去了解這個部分然後能夠讓整個鋰電池失火的問題不要造成就是國人就是生命財產很重要的一個損失好不好是的 我想這個是很好的一個科技防治的一個方式啦這個在我們經濟部我們有一個DiPath計畫我想我們把它納入這樣的一個考慮OK 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":700.624,"end":702.655,"text":"好谢谢我们现在请"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":423,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時59分）謝謝主席，我想請經濟部郭智輝部長、交通部林國顯常次，謝謝。"],["主席：郭部長、林次長。"],["鄭委員正鈐：郭部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為美國攻擊了伊朗的核設施，確實，大家都非常的關心，也有很多委員都提到了伊朗封鎖了荷姆茲海峽之後會對整個臺灣產生的影響，全球大概四分之一到五分之一的石油跟天然氣都會經過荷姆茲海峽，臺灣進口的石油跟天然氣有多少會經過荷姆茲海峽？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，根據我們的統計，大概20%的油、25%的氣會有一些影響。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以臺灣進口的天然氣有25%會產生影響，因為目前整個臺灣的發電結構當中，超過五成都是天然氣發電，你們有沒有推演這個部分大概會對臺灣的電價產生多大的壓力？"],["郭部長智輝：現在天然氣還沒有到五成。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，還沒有出來。因為你剛剛有特別提到中油這邊，其實經濟部還有整個行政院體系，對於原油價格從80塊到130塊都有去做一些模型的推演，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這個部分，在你們推演出來的數字當中，當原油價格在80塊的時候對我們的CPI大概會影響多少？因為通膨確實是民眾每個人都有感的，到130塊的時候對我們的CPI大概又會影響多少，它的range大概是怎麼樣？請部長回應一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，為什麼行政院要針對這個命題給予高度的關注，就是因為我們怕影響到整個物價指數，所以這部分裡面我們就會研擬出一些影響的變數，當這個影響變數無法控制，它價格一直往上走的時候，變成中油開始吸收這裡面的差額。我也再回應一下，過去為什麼我們有很多時候需要國營事業來穩定物價？因為當我們碰到這個衝擊事項的時候，政府考慮到對整個物價的影響，會要求我們中油或者台電要能夠吸收這些因為漲價，因為戰爭，或者是因為大的變故所影響的價格，所以這一部分其實是我們在討論的，在討論的時候不是只有經濟部，或者是中油公司，或者台電公司自己提出來，他只是把這個現象提出來，但是我想行政院會綜合考量，透過可能是福利相關的措施，或者是其他的補助、援助的方法來做整合的考量。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長謝謝，我給了你很長的時間把這個部分說明完整。本席想問，如果原油價格暴漲，政府對於整個CPI的部分，有沒有說要政策性地把它控制在百分之幾以下？"],["郭部長智輝：有，報告委員，我們這邊的數字是這樣子，油價如果上漲10%，那麼對CPI的影響是0.3%，如果是以電價來講的話，我們平均電價上漲1%，那麼對CPI的影響大概是0.027%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我們這樣就比較容易去推論從80塊到130塊，大概會有多大影響，謝謝部長很具體地給了一個答案。","接下來我想問一下交通部林常次，針對我們今天的主題「因應高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」這個部分，我想特別請教一下交通部，因為我們看到目前整個國道運輸的駕駛，據說給到10萬塊都還找不到人，為什麼會這樣子？交通部這邊有沒有什麼因應的方式？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，確實，目前大客車、公車駕駛缺得很多，你這個資料也沒有錯，目前給到10萬塊都還找不到人，所以可能會由公路局這邊加碼補助各業者徵才。第二個，當然也透過學校、各種機構去看有沒有願意來接受駕訓的來源。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長，你這樣的回答，基本上對於整個現場碰到的問題，感覺好像沒有真正打到痛點，因為我們目前整個職業駕照分成小型客車、大貨車、大客車，還有連結車，大概有四種職業駕照。那麼大客車這個部分，他們同時可以去開大貨車跟小型客貨車，所以大客車為什麼找不到人？是因為很多的大客車駕駛都去開小型客貨車、計程車了，所以目前出現一個很特別的情況，就是國道的司機跑到市區，因為開市區的公車他們壓力比較小，然後整個工作的環境也比較好，就是相較於國道駕駛來說。我們就碰到了另外一個問題，比方說計程車司機，有很多人要去開，他們希望駕駛年齡到延後到70歲還可以再延後，可是國道交通這邊就完全找不到司機，市區公車延後到70歲也找不到人，為什麼會有這樣的情況？我不知道交通部有沒有做研究，是怎麼樣的情況導致這樣的事情發生，你們要怎麼樣去因應？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，確實，您的觀察也很明確，目前的趨勢大概就是從國道客運往市區公車走，大客車往職業駕駛或者是小客車走，主要原因就是您剛剛提的，工作時間的彈性跟壓力。各位也看到，在最近的報導裡面，尤其是市區公車或公路客運，有時候駕駛會面臨交通阻塞、乘客抱怨，甚至有一些比較不理性的乘客會直接……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以針對這個部分，本席也稍微去了解了一下，以目前來說，為什麼國道駕駛就是這麼缺人？大概有簡單的三個原因：一個跟吃飯有關，一個跟上廁所有關，一個跟職業傷害有關，這三點我不知道交通部有沒有跨部會去跟其他的部會溝通，要怎麼樣來解決這個問題？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我是不是請公運司林司長跟您報告一下？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，剛剛委員所提到的這幾個課題，確實是屬於大客車駕駛在一些日常環境所碰到的部分，這個部分交通部跟地方政府大概分幾個層面來做處理：第一個，當然，缺員就要加強招募人員來投入。第二個，希望做路線的優化。第三個，大概就是場站，還有駕駛工時、排班的合理性，大概朝這幾個部分來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝，因為你的回應當中大概都還算是一個……整個政策確實也要這樣去做，可是因為我們今天是針對整個高齡化社會公共運具的問題，所以我想請教一下經濟部部長，因為剛剛提到這三個問題，一個是吃飯的問題，一個是上廁所的問題，第三個提到了他們職業傷害的問題，而我們現在看到經濟部提出來的報告當中，大概都是要怎麼樣提高營運的效率、要強化行車安全跟優化電動巴士能源管理等等問題，可是沒有具體提到這三個痛點。所以我想請教一下部長，針對這三個痛點，你們在做新的高齡化相關運具的時候，有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做配合跟調整？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去以後來考慮這些使用者的情境，然後再提出一個比較完整的措施。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，你簡單回應了，可是沒有很具體。我很簡單講一個部分，如果是針對吃飯的問題，我們現在有輔助駕駛，通常會卡到吃飯都是因為塞車，如果有輔助駕駛，是不是也可以同時配合一些相關的修法，在什麼樣的情況之下，也許讓他們在塞車很長時間時可以同時吃飯，這個是一個點，輔助駕駛加上法規的鬆綁，這是第一個部分。","第二個，針對洗手間的部分，你們現在設計新的巴士的時候，是不是有可能在新的巴士當中設計讓駕駛有一個自己的駕駛室？也許可以有一個簡便的便盆可以去因應，或比方說有一個小型的洗手間，高齡化的人也很需要洗手間，這可以在設計的同時把它規劃進來。第三個，職業傷害的部分，因為勞動部直接表示，臺北醫院也表示了他們有哪些問題，我們也希望在設計新型載具的時候，也同時能夠讓他們有一個比較好的環境，比方說方向盤重量、踩油門重量，還有座位高度等等問題，讓他們的職業傷害能夠降低，也許能夠解決這個部分，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員垂詢，我想我們會把您所垂詢的納入我們一些考慮的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。最後一個部分，因為上禮拜又發生了電動巴士失火的事故，針對電動巴士失火的這個問題，不知道經濟部這邊有沒有怎麼樣的解決方案？對於整個鋰電池失火的相關問題，我們是不是會有更完整的SOP或者是有新研發的一些滅火素材能夠來因應鋰電池失火的問題？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導。有關這個部分，因為現在起火的原因還在等國家運安會的調查，我想等我們真正了解鋰電池起火的原因，就可以針對鋰電池產生的火源要如何進行有效的滅火，這個部分我們都會考慮。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為鋰電池也是新興科技，我們怎麼滅火的部分能夠有一個新興科技來去因應，我覺得也非常重要，所以希望經濟部能夠就全球去了解這個部分，然後能夠讓鋰電池失火的問題不要造成國人生命財產的重要損失，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我想這個是很好的科技防制的方式，我們經濟部們有一個大A+計畫，我想我們把它納入考慮。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好黃次長跟周署長好的"},{"start":27.065,"end":41.821,"text":"那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的一個處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向"},{"start":43.783,"end":67.153,"text":"所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品適用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、賦命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%"},{"start":68.994,"end":86.193,"text":"所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛剛你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下"},{"start":87.394,"end":91.176,"text":"在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重"},{"start":111.147,"end":122.836,"text":"那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的"},{"start":128.921,"end":151.362,"text":"不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著"},{"start":152.003,"end":177.219,"text":"所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡那我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向"},{"start":179.206,"end":191.682,"text":"所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟衛福部如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的處理制度是不是有機會讓治療來做優先的一個考量"},{"start":195.046,"end":209.61,"text":"那麼回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助"},{"start":211.531,"end":227.771,"text":"但是呢 現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制 戒制都以矯正屬的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎"},{"start":228.892,"end":255.688,"text":"那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯"},{"start":256.548,"end":274.47,"text":"來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔"},{"start":276.231,"end":298.943,"text":"機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共病狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個交政署跟衛福部"},{"start":300.665,"end":312.298,"text":"我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0"},{"start":314.961,"end":338.94,"text":"那在這個過程中呢 剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處理特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩起訴負面戒癮治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為緩起訴畢竟有他的法定要件"},{"start":339.6,"end":358.02,"text":"所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好盡量用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也提一下衛福部"},{"start":361.664,"end":381.893,"text":"你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明"},{"start":383.694,"end":405.707,"text":"報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後在監獄這一端我們有所謂的科學實證"},{"start":407.128,"end":432.075,"text":"的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構處意慢慢會轉向到社區處意包括委員有提到緩起訴 確實他的效果會比較好"},{"start":434.738,"end":446.575,"text":"是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點"},{"start":454.574,"end":475.218,"text":"陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是出獄之後"},{"start":476.938,"end":496.922,"text":"出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理"},{"start":500.143,"end":520.644,"text":"我們現在大概分成兩類啦 一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥引治療 這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療 那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務"},{"start":522.125,"end":545.055,"text":"所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔 有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個"},{"start":547.997,"end":571.891,"text":"我們叫替代療法 減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看"},{"start":573.272,"end":588.986,"text":"可能可以在效果上更為精進接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人"},{"start":595.391,"end":617.686,"text":"設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄"},{"start":619.387,"end":645.384,"text":"有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢"},{"start":646.344,"end":672.675,"text":"報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全"},{"start":672.995,"end":696.671,"text":"主講這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理"},{"start":700.914,"end":717.432,"text":"因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的"},{"start":717.972,"end":731.139,"text":"是 所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括高雲壽行等的指引我講比較直接一點啦"},{"start":746.568,"end":770.204,"text":"是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理"},{"start":771.825,"end":798.837,"text":"這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以我們至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理"},{"start":799.997,"end":822.29,"text":"這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個微型的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受診人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好"},{"start":822.99,"end":838.566,"text":"他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好 謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的生活面"},{"start":839.227,"end":855.462,"text":"那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們"},{"start":856.383,"end":870.951,"text":"在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上"},{"start":873.072,"end":878.656,"text":"有一些不足那最主要的就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法"},{"start":889.022,"end":914.911,"text":"吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利"},{"start":916.292,"end":928.748,"text":"導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答"},{"start":931.084,"end":952.053,"text":"有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是"},{"start":955.014,"end":979.789,"text":"是有點低嘛對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會適用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領"},{"start":980.669,"end":986.692,"text":"因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口"},{"start":1004.141,"end":1027.349,"text":"然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理"},{"start":1029.81,"end":1049.664,"text":"那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數"},{"start":1053.226,"end":1067.583,"text":"那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好 這是本席的一個提醒好嗎好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時45分）召委、府院同仁大家好。我是不是先請法務部次長或署長，就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好？"],["主席：請黃次長跟周署長。"],["林委員倩綺：今天衛福部也有署長代表，所以有一些問題會跟您請教。我們今天是先針對獄政跟受刑人的處遇做一個制度性的檢討，本席有鎖定兩個方向，所以我先把相關的資訊先臚列一下。本席這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究中心的統計數字，毒品施用者5年內的再犯率，單純監禁者大概高達72%；採取緩起訴附命戒癮治療者，降到了35.6%，所以從可以看得出處遇模式如果不同，對再犯的風險是正相關的、有顯著影響。另外是高齡的問題，剛才你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者也有一些規劃。我提醒一下，在數據上，高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%，但是10年之後，到了2023的數據突然變成了1倍高有9.6%；然後目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2,700人，整個10年來成長了近3倍，反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重。剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提，但是本席希望待會更具體的能夠讓我了解在毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題。","我想這個數字，對於整個獄政系統應該是還蠻有壓力的，不管是先前我們討論的空間不足、超收等等，我們從這個數據裡面看得出，其實整個毒品處遇還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關。不曉得我這樣講，矯正機關有什麼看法？因為如果對矯正機關過度依賴的話，我們會有「以罰代療」這樣的陰影一直籠罩著，並且高齡受刑人重返社會的措施，也有很多改善的空間。所以我們針對如何有效的抑制、延緩再犯，跟促成社會的復歸，是今天的重點。因此我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討，來看看現在的缺口在哪裡，然後我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向。","所以在這個部分，我想要請教法務部跟衛福部，如果我們以病犯的視角來看待毒品的施用者，現行的處遇制度是不是有機會讓治療作為優先的考量？我們回顧整個毒品危害防制的制度設計，原本觀察勒戒跟強制勒戒是醫療處遇的過渡手段，最後的目標其實是要讓毒品施用者來接受醫療的協助，但現況是觀察勒戒跟強制戒治，都以矯正署的相關機構作為主體的執行，整個環境還是很像監禁的場域，你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒治毒品的犯罪嗎？","另外，這個部分我就來請教署長，剛才雖然你們在報告有提到矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作，你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的規劃？並且可不可以將機構內處遇轉型為緩起訴的中繼處遇手段或安置場所？這樣是不是能夠更有效地來做一些成效的評估，從過去我們是否再犯，把它轉換調整為是否延緩再犯、是否完成療程？用病理跟復原的觀點作為一個指標。","我要請教衛福部，在你們的毒防中心，成癮治療門診的量能，是不是能夠足夠來承擔機構外處遇？我知道你們剛才講到今年的預算也增加了不少，但是增加的面向是在哪裡？地方的毒防中心，是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態、共病狀態等風險進行評估與處遇分流的能力？是不是請矯正署跟衛福部回答？或是次長要回答？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我先總體跟您說明大的方向，然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告你具體的問題。我想行政院跨部會的新世代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0，在這個過程中，剛剛委員提出來的問題，我們其實都有看到。所以我們本來就有一個強化多元處遇，尤其是委員特別點出來的緩起訴附命戒癮治療的成效，所以我們現在新生毒品犯的人口已經逐年在遞減，但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略。但是因為緩起訴畢竟有它的法定要件，所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式，所以我們才會強調多元處遇。","當然委員的意思是說，機構處遇可能效果比較不好，儘量用非機構的處遇，但是我們要回到每個個案具體的狀況，所以我們每一個多元的狀況都會並行，都會個別來檢討、來精進……"],["林委員倩綺：我是不是也聽一下衛福部跟你們合作的狀態？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們都有在合作。"],["林委員倩綺：其實最重要就是我們怎麼從病理的角度來看到這些受刑人的問題，跟做實際的一些治療。"],["黃次長世杰：對，我們在每一個多元的處遇裡面都必須要跟衛福部、跟他們所屬醫療的專業來合作。細節部分，我是不是請兩位署長跟委員做進一步說明？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，所謂的毒品犯是病犯，他是犯人的同時也是病人。所以在我們早期，像戒治所就跟療養院來合作，然後來發展本土化的戒治模式，在監獄這一端，我們有所謂的科學實證之毒品犯處遇模式計畫。至於我們跟衛福部，其實在行政院跨部會合作裡面，包括以前的政務委員都有做一些指示，我們會把相關的、可能的機構處遇，慢慢會轉向到社區處遇，包括委員有提到緩起訴，確實它的效果會比較好，法務部也積極在辦理。"],["林委員倩綺：所以本席剛才也在內容裡面跟你們建議，是不是大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點？衛福部是不是可以回答本席剛才所提內容的重點？關於你們成癮醫療的量能等等。"],["石署長崇良：誠如委員提到，我們都很認同這些藥癮者應該要有一些醫療的介入，所以長期以來，我們大概有兩個方向，一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作，把醫療戒癮的服務導入到監所裡頭，所以包含……"],["林委員倩綺：所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭……"],["石署長崇良：就需要……"],["林委員倩綺：就是剛才本席提到「以罰代療」的狀態？"],["石署長崇良：第二個是出獄之後，過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用附命的方式，或者是處遇的方式，在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務……"],["林委員倩綺：本席可不可以跟您請教，目前你們在針對各個不同毒品施用的型態，對受刑人有沒有比較細節的區分與處理？"],["石署長崇良：我們現在大概分成兩類：一種就是所謂的減害計畫，就是用Methadone或者是Naloxone，對於鴉片類成癮者，我們叫做減害藥癮治療，這是一類；另外就是用行為治療，都是在醫療機構來提供服務。"],["林委員倩綺：所以看起來是大的方向，但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態來做一些調整或者補強，有沒有？"],["石署長崇良：當然也會根據他的藥癮主要的成分會有不同，剛剛講的減害計畫，主要是針對鴉片類的，還有其他的，有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種叫做減害替代療法，而要直接戒治的也有，是不同的。"],["林委員倩綺：本席在這邊跟你們提醒，各種藥癮有不同的狀態，如果你們的經費變多的話，那應該在這個部分處理的更精緻一點，本席認為我們不要以罰代療，能夠把它真正當成一個病理的脈絡來看，可能可以在效果上更為精進。"],["石署長崇良：會。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來，本席要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口，我們知道今年已經邁向了高齡社會，依據國際的經驗，美、日都已經針對高齡受刑人設置了專責的監獄，或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區，因為高齡人口會碰到適應困難，鰥寡的受刑者沒有子女來扶養，中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場，所以本席想要了解，目前我們有沒有對高齡者設置專責的監獄？其次，監獄裡面高齡區的設置現況是如何？有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設獄所的標準規劃？這是我們不可能逃避的問題，也是獄所的一個新挑戰，這個部分不知道法務部目前做得怎麼樣？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄，但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長青工場，收容高齡的受刑人，再讓他們在工場工作，這個工場可能幾乎要設在一樓或是動線比較好的地方，兼顧到他們的安全。"],["林委員倩綺：署長這邊提到的是工場，上回我們召委帶我們去參訪的獄所，我們也看到工場的部分，您現在講的是對高齡人在工場設置比較開放性的空間，但是對於高齡人在獄所裡面的整個生活空間，這個部分是不是也應該納入一個專區的思維來處理？因為美、日都已經有這樣子的做法，高齡者在生活上可能跟其他受刑人的生活節奏有一些比較大的落差，所以這點是很需要去處理跟面對的。"],["周署長輝煌：是，跟委員報告，我們有所謂的樂齡計畫，在115年爭取了2,400萬；116年爭取到1,400萬，可能因為115年針對相關的輔具已經採購了，所以116年就少了1,000萬，包括高齡受刑人的指引都訂定了……"],["林委員倩綺：我講比較直接一點，是不是可以好好的考量在獄所裡面設立高齡專區，不管是在工場做比較開放性的空間跟生活面的空間，或者是未來我們可以仿效已開發國家的做法，在獄所裡面針對空間、針對高齡者的行為、行動去做分隔處理，這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議，我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理。"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們可以參考日本，日本有高齡專區，包括他們的工場……"],["林委員倩綺：先從高齡專區開始……"],["周署長輝煌：對。"],["林委員倩綺：大家對高齡都沒有相關的經驗，但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的生活節奏跟行為面確實是……而且現在數量又變得比較多，確實是要提早做一些處理，這是本席很直接的建議，未來我也會針對這個部分了解獄所在每一年微型的調整跟中長期的計畫，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：是，在日本的尾道監獄收容了60歲以上有慢性病的受刑人……"],["林委員倩綺：是，重點是我希望你們在臺灣可以將這個部分列入比較具體的考量……"],["周署長輝煌：他們可能設置了一些扶梯，工場有一些相關適合的……"],["林委員倩綺：你講的是高齡的設施，但我講的是整個高齡受刑人的行為面……"],["周署長輝煌：這個部分我們會再來研議。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝，所以注意一下高齡者的生活面。","最後本席想了解法務部的相關單位跟衛福部合作的人力資源和薪資，現在我們在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療，這是很重要的，剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有心理師、社工師的專業介入，但是目前就本席所看到的數據，應該在專業服務上仍有一些不足，最主要的是具有受刑人處遇專業的師資鐘點，目前還沿用十幾年前（2012年）的標準，這個標準是低於市場行情的，導致矯正機關沒有辦法吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師、社工師或醫師的長期投入。署長，矯正署是不是有盤點跟檢討整個費用標準？","對於衛福部，本席有針對毒品、精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處遇模式，如何將這種預防性的福利導入矯正場域，讓高風險的族群在出獄以後也能夠進入社區，還有接受身心照護的體系，這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答？有，就告訴本席現在在做的；如果沒有，你們中長期的計畫有什麼樣的想法？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，確實矯正機關訂定的是比較低，如果是衛福部計畫進去的，醫師的部分，3個小時算一節的話是6,000；其他醫事人員進去，鐘點費是2,000，確實是……"],["林委員倩綺：是有點低嘛，對不對？我們光看數據，從2012年到現在，整個物價調整了多少，如果我們要真正找到能夠解決問題的相關人等，在薪資的部分，法務部是不是應該來做整體的考量跟檢討？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為這有點細節，我們回去盤點一下，看哪些人適用這個表，因為剛剛石署長也有講到，如果是他們的計畫則不是照這個表領……"],["林委員倩綺：因為他們在這個部分比較專業啦！所以我這邊提醒……"],["黃次長世杰：他們有支援我們，但他們支援我們的不是照這個表……"],["林委員倩綺：對，如果從你們的管道……"],["黃次長世杰：我們這邊來盤點一下目前這個表的適用狀況，然後我們會檢討。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，你們如果盤點完之後，是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席知道？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們再把結論跟委員報告。"],["林委員倩綺：好，兩造可不可以在這個部分多加一些對口，然後更具體的為中、長期計畫來實施，擬訂符合目前社會脈絡及現狀的一些方法。"],["黃次長世杰：我們其實都有在緊密聯繫，謝謝委員的關心。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，我最後只提醒一件事，你們也不用回應了，本席要為立法院其他同仁目前遇到的問題去敦促法務部，你們應該依法秉公處理，檢察官不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查，只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能，檢察官都應該要展開調查。最近大家在罷免的部分，有看到許多無效的連署份數，如果被很多人質疑的話，法務部是不是該秉公處理，不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查，而不是只有接受到中選會的通知才辦，好不好？這是本席的一個提醒，好嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a412b84b384e35c9ab85017248ed72d8db1c1f5e093a479505d8ce9dcc01387985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:47:18 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我們的股市"},{"start":43.51,"end":68.63,"text":"暴跌了400多點那這個看起來是原油應該會是往上上升的包括牛津經濟研究院都評估說啊再這樣下去啊原油一桶可能會飆升到美元130塊錢那這個可能就帶動物價嘛接下來可能是通膨他甚至認為說連美國這個通膨啊到年底可能都會到6%那我們國內這個對經濟會有衝擊經濟會有做什麼準備嗎"},{"start":73.48,"end":96.909,"text":"我們確實如委員所垂詢的我們都有做準備我們從這個國際原油價格80塊現在的這個狀況一直推你到您剛才所說的130塊我們分成幾個不同的階段的這個油價都做了這一些情境的分析那麼根據所有的情境分析我們研擬出我們中油應該要有的對策"},{"start":97.569,"end":125.138,"text":"那麼這裡面當然有考慮到委員所垂詢的這個對CPI影響會有多少我想整體的這個部分不是只有經濟部或者是中油公司在處理這個事情我們行政院經濟部的上級長官對這個命題也非常非常的重要所以我們都整體有在對這個荷姆茲海峽的封鎖所造成的影響做出各種的推論對"},{"start":128.074,"end":154.779,"text":"這個非常重要啦所以冰淚白其實賴總統有召開國安會議嘛那現在看起來上禮拜開完之後現在這個衝突是在升高的因為美國出手了美國發動攻擊然後今天最新的消息是伊朗的國會已經通過了開始要封鎖荷摩茲這個海峽所以這個問題是在加劇當中部長你要不要利用這個機會跟前面講經濟部要怎麼樣去安定人心對經濟衝擊最小"},{"start":157.275,"end":180.373,"text":"經濟部我們對這種各種的狀況都有研擬我們都有研擬所以我想這個全國國人應該可以放心我們對80塊的時候應該怎麼做對90塊怎麼做100塊會怎麼做都有各種不同的情境分析那麼對各種的變數影響都有做出具體的因應的模式這個不是只有經濟部"},{"start":181.67,"end":206.22,"text":"一個部門在做的事情也不是中油公司一家公司在應應的事情這是整體行政院我們跨部會都有做一些這些的準備民眾非常關心你看股市那麼敏感一下就跌了400點了然後世上代總統跟總理長一定會再問你因為看起來是在這個戰情在升溫當中好不好那接下來要問一個人命關天的這個事情"},{"start":208.127,"end":226.474,"text":"這個在媒體啊跟這個網路上啊罵聲連連這非常嚴重的一件事情就是高雄的大樹村51公頃的山山被鏟平了樹被砍掉了人命的關天而且前幾天這個地方"},{"start":228.223,"end":246.475,"text":"一場暴雨啊 滾滾的那個黃石衝下來當地的民眾來陳情 也抗議了 媒體說 媒體一個形容說什麼有可能會變成是以前小林村 媚村一個很大的一個悲劇所以現在要趕快要處理這個問題不然你們看這個圖 你們看這是一座山 51公頃喔結果山被鏟平了 右上角全部鋪了光電板"},{"start":257.017,"end":282.784,"text":"下面不遠的地方就是一個社區前陣子一場暴雨那個土石已經沖下來了這是非常嚴重的一個問題那今天特別要問你的是我在11日11號提出了這個質詢問農業部部長之後我看你們的那個高雄市政府馬上去處理你們在6月13號能源署開罰了150萬"},{"start":286.601,"end":314.6,"text":"對不對 可是高雄市政府現在更進一步囉他現在不是說光開闊一百五啊他說要求你們能源署要做進一步這個處理包括除色洗殼都要廢掉我們先來看喔 你看現場不然另外你看一下剛剛那個是空照圖這個是陳情的民眾當地民眾拍下來的你看 這個擋土牆一山被鏟平了擋土牆竟然只有做一半"},{"start":316.479,"end":342.021,"text":"多危險啊 下一個 你看 這邊這個黨主席有說這樣這個合法合規嗎 多危險的事情 再來看不是一個地方欸很多地方都有很大的問題現在國融基金會明確要求 它說這個責任包括匯除除色席殼是經濟部的責任經濟部要匯除他們的除色席殼嗎"},{"start":343.432,"end":367.262,"text":"報告委員 基本上我們一定會廢除他的酬赦許可但是必須要在高雄市政府把他的文件發出以後我們會即刻來廢止他的酬赦許可這個高雄市政府是在一個禮拜前就開了會啦 6月18號來看這個說水土保守法 地 來看上一張 水土保守法"},{"start":368.732,"end":386.291,"text":"第三十三條 他們已經發了一百零八萬然後高雄省政府還把這個案子已經移送到地檢署去申辦了然後他們除了要求要停工之外要求能源署 你看 保證 你看明明確確他一天白天就要求能源署要撤銷他的許可要終止這個開發"},{"start":388.531,"end":411.148,"text":"文件還沒到你那邊是不是文件他還沒有發高雄市政府還沒有發出來能源署沒有辦法依照這個所發出來的文件來執行我們應該做的這個作為嘛所以跟委員報告只要高雄市政府發出這個文件我們能源署立馬就發出停止他這個施工的這個許可就是一收到"},{"start":412.51,"end":436.346,"text":"馬上立即停止他撤銷他的酬赦席可對不對依法有據嘛依法有據我們必須要根據這個來這個都送到地檢署了柏弟這個是命關天的事情我們完全同意您的說法嘛這個也是依法所有的這個能源署我想我們都是依法依規在執行我們的任務所以您剛才所垂詢的這個部分我們一開始"},{"start":436.986,"end":465.752,"text":"就是完全跟您的這個說法是完全一樣我們馬上做出這個決定只是我們現在在等高雄市政府的這個文件已經一個禮拜了不要變成兩邊在踢皮球喔回去以後可能要查要追一下到底文來的沒有好不好那如果文來的部長已經受了宣示了嘛趕快要停止我們每天都在查這件事情啦這個大家這個社會這麼關注的這個命題我們不可能在那個地方什麼事情都不做"},{"start":466.052,"end":480.474,"text":"那個高雄市政府真的是牛不化了陳其邁每天在衝衝衝是個軟男對不對一個文一個禮拜這個委員你大概沒有待過市政府啦所以我想你不能這樣批評高雄市市長人命關天喔"},{"start":481.215,"end":507.972,"text":"第一個前陣子已經有一場大雨土石已經下來了第二個現在風太低對不對我們大家所關心的我們大家所關心的我們大家所關心的但是即使大家所關心的方向是一樣做法大家都非常的努力但是報告委員我們必須要依照法令上面所進行的程序去把它做完備"},{"start":508.912,"end":536.621,"text":"不可能說跳脫法律允許的範圍我們這個超前去做這個部分在政府是不允許的你看不只居民全國民眾等下就會跟你反映了一個人命關天的事情一個公文履行了拖延了一個禮拜你要幫他講話而且現在是颱風的這個季節欸要快一點啦要快一點啦現在是跟時間在賽跑在搶救人命啦好 那 博定不是只有這個案子同樣在高雄啊"},{"start":537.745,"end":559.802,"text":"還有一個在祁山區啊這個碼頭山的這個也是光電的開發你看這個碧安這麼多他這次是 這個山是多少啊55公頃一段講一段更加嚴重然後他還是一個兩條活動斷層跟泥沿地這個二地之間這個如果一開發啊"},{"start":561.411,"end":569.4,"text":"第一個 你看穿山甲 水鹿 豬鯉這些稀有動物的棲息可能都受到問題然後對那個地質衝擊也會非常大法定這案我要處理啦 來時間有限齁 我趕快 趕快我們做四個結論第一個"},{"start":580.929,"end":604.476,"text":"因為現在不要變成是踢皮球啦高雄市政府說很多責任都在中央的內政部經濟部跟農業部所以我請經濟部因為是你們核准的嘛第一個做一件事情把你們當初核定的範圍土地的數量跟總面積還有你們中央的責任跟地方責任把它清清楚楚的一定好不好這個聞了到你們那邊嘛對不對然後第二個"},{"start":605.831,"end":628.315,"text":"山坡地的開發要更嚴格因為目前這個規範啊山坡地以前都沒有做環評山坡地是不是另外要受到限制要整體趕快來檢討 好不好另外這個案子啊一年喔 光是營收可以賺大概4.2億結果目前為止高雄聖聖湖的財閥才財閥還罰了180萬能源署去罰了150萬要幫他訂五個"},{"start":635.422,"end":642.307,"text":"這根本就沒有影響啊對他來講4.2億欸一年算4.2億欸你這個財閥太低了所以我明確的要求"},{"start":643.186,"end":670.013,"text":"因為他有可能被你們撤銷對不對然後他還規定喔你如果初期借滿之後這個土地還要復原欸那山已經被你產平了怎麼去復原所以這個東西要好好去追究好最後做一個要求因為現在看起來山坡地不是只有剛剛講這兩個案子嘛不然你能答應我嗎一個月內關於你的光電推動裡面如果有次山坡地能不能一個月提出一個整體的報告跟解決方案"},{"start":671.96,"end":682.847,"text":"好 可以好 我定這位搶救人命啦真的要跟時間賽跑這不是等鬥熊4台運這麼慢來啦卡個電話算什麼問題 好不好老實講如果最近發生颱風"},{"start":684.446,"end":700.852,"text":"鬧出人品外購 這個不是行政責任喔這個有刑事責任喔 好不好我們跟市政府 加油我們跟高雄市政府啊 我們在上個禮拜就已經針對這個命題進入深度的這個研究了我們並沒有像你才講說 漠不關心啦這一點我必須要在這個地方說明一下"},{"start":704.072,"end":724.413,"text":"一個禮拜就是要有一些就是要法定規定啊人家高雄市政府都已經說我們將來可以來這個地方受一些修法請這個委員來幫忙啦謝謝委員現在趕快跟時間賽跑一個禮拜算太久了趕快趕快你既然有聯絡趕快加快速度好不好民眾都在等跟時間賽跑搶救人命謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時47分）多謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，以色列跟伊朗軍事衝突一直在升高，特別是美國發動攻擊之後，現在看起來對經濟的衝擊可能會很大，今天早上我們的股市暴跌了四百多點，看起來原油應該會是往上升，包括牛津經濟研究院都評估說，再這樣下去，原油一桶可能會飆升到美元130塊錢，可能就會帶動物價，接下來可能是通膨，它甚至認為到年底，連美國的通膨都會到6%，這個在我們國內對經濟會有衝擊，經濟部有做了什麼準備嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：確實如委員所垂詢的，我們都有做準備，我們從國際原油價格80塊現在的狀況，一直推擬到您剛才所說的130塊，我們分成幾個不同的階段的油價都做了這一些情境的分析，根據所有的情境分析，我們研擬出中油應該要有的對策，這裡面當然有考慮到委員所垂詢的對CPI的影響會有多少，我想整體的部分不是只有經濟部或者是中油公司在處理這個事情，行政院、經濟部的上級長官對這個命題也非常非常非常重要，所以我們都整體有在對荷姆茲海峽的封鎖所造成的影響做出各種推論。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個非常重要，所以上禮拜其實賴總統有召開國安會議，現在看起來上禮拜開完之後，現在衝突是在升高的，因為美國出手了，美國發動攻擊，然後今天最新的消息是伊朗的國會已經通過了，開始要封鎖荷姆茲海峽，所以這個問題是在加劇當中，部長，你要不要利用這個機會跟全民講經濟部要怎麼樣去安定人心，對經濟衝擊最小？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部對各種狀況都有研擬……"],["張委員啓楷：上個禮拜又升高了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有研擬，我想全國國人應該可以放心，我們對80塊的時候應該怎麼做，對90塊、100塊怎麼做都有各種不同的情境分析，對各種的變數影響都有做出具體的因應模式，這個不是只有經濟部一個部門在做的事情，也不是中油一家公司在因應的事情，這是整體行政院、跨部會都有做這一些的準備。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，民眾非常關心，你看股市那麼敏感，一下子就跌了400點，事實上賴總統跟卓院長一定會再問你，因為看起來這個戰情在升溫當中，好不好？","接下來要問一個人命關天的事情，這個在媒體跟網路上罵聲連連，這是非常嚴重的一件事情，就是高雄大樹區51公頃的山被剷平了、樹被砍掉了，人命關天，而且前幾天這個地方因一場暴雨而滾滾黃石沖下來，當地民眾來陳情也抗議，媒體形容有可能會變成以前小林村被滅村的一個大悲劇，所以現在要趕快處理這個問題。部長，我給你看這個圖，這是一座山，結果51公頃的山被剷平了，右上角全部鋪了光電板，下面不遠的地方就是一個社區，前陣子的一場暴雨，土石已經沖下來了，這是非常嚴重的一個問題。","今天特別要問你的是，我在11號提出質詢問農業部部長之後，我看高雄市政府馬上去處理，在6月13號能源署開罰了150萬，對不對？可是高雄市政府現在更進一步了，他們現在不是只有開罰150萬而已，他們還要求能源署要做進一步的處理，包括籌設許可都要廢掉。我們先來看現場，部長，我給你看一下，剛剛那個是空照圖，這個是當地陳情民眾拍下來的，你看這個擋土牆，山被剷平了，擋土牆竟然只有做一半，多危險啊！下一張，你看這邊一個擋土牆只有做這樣，這個合法、合規嗎？多危險的事情。再來看，不是只有一個地方，很多地方都有很大的問題。部長，現在高雄市政府明確要求，他們說廢除籌設許可是經濟部的責任，經濟部要廢除它的籌設許可嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，基本上我們一定會廢除它的籌設許可，但是必須要在高雄市政府把其文件發出以後，我們會即刻來廢止它的籌設許可。"],["張委員啓楷：高雄市政府在一個禮拜前6月18號就開了會，依水土保持法第三十三條，他們已經罰了108萬，高雄市政府還把這個案子已經移送地檢署偵辦了，他們除了要求停工之外，也要求能源署……部長，你看明明確確，它一個禮拜前就要求能源署要撤銷它的許可、要終止這個開發。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["張委員啓楷：文件還沒到你那邊，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：高雄市政府還沒有發出來文件，能源署沒有辦法依照所發出來的文件來執行我們應該做的作為。跟委員報告，只要高雄市政府發出這個文件，我們能源署立馬就發出停止它施工許可。"],["張委員啓楷：就是一收到馬上立即撤銷它的籌設許可，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：依法有據嘛！我們必須要根據這個來執行。"],["張委員啓楷：這個都送到地檢署了，部長，這個是人命關天的事情，而且我們現在跟時間……"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！我們完全同意您的說法，能源署都是依法、依規在執行我們的任務，所以您剛才所垂詢的這個部分，我們一開始就是跟您的這個說法是完全一樣，我們馬上作出這個決定，只是我們現在在等高雄市政府的這個文件。"],["張委員啓楷：好，已經一個禮拜了，不要變成兩邊在踢皮球，回去以後可能要追一下到底文來了沒有，好不好？如果文來了，部長已經做了宣示，趕快要停止。部長，這裡面還有一個問題……"],["郭部長智輝：我們每天都在查這件事情，社會這麼關注的命題，我們不可能在那個地方什麼事情都不做。"],["張委員啓楷：高雄市政府真的是牛步化了，陳其邁每次都在衝、衝、衝，是個暖男，對不對？一個文一個禮拜還沒……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你大概沒有待過市政府，所以我想你不能這樣批評高雄市市長。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，人命關天，第一個，前陣子的一場大雨讓土石已經下來了；第二個，現在是颱風季，颱風隨時要來……"],["郭部長智輝：我們大家所關心的……"],["張委員啓楷：這是第一個，人命關天；第二個，跟時間在賽跑，這不能拖耶！"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們大家所關心的都是這個樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：不只是地方不能拖，中央也不能拖啦！"],["郭部長智輝：即使大家所關心的方向是一樣，作法大家都非常的努力，但是報告委員，我們必須要依照法令上面所進行的程序去把它做完備，不可能跳脫法律允許的範圍超前去做，這個部分政府是不允許的。"],["張委員啓楷：不只居民，全國民眾等一下就會跟你反映了……"],["郭部長智輝：我們非常同意。"],["張委員啓楷：這是人命關天的事情，一個公文拖延了一個禮拜，你還要幫他講話，而且現在是颱風的季節，要快一點啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們是有做……"],["張委員啓楷：現在是跟時間在賽跑，在搶救人命啦！部長，不是只有這個案子，一樣在高雄，還有一個是在旗山區馬頭山，也是光電的開發，你看弊案這麼多，這個山是55公頃，比剛才說的還更嚴重，它還地處兩條活動斷層跟泥岩惡地之間，如果一開發，第一個，穿山甲、水鹿、朱鸝等稀有動物的棲息可能都受到波及，對地質的衝擊也非常大。部長，這個案子也要處理啦！","時間有限，我趕快做四個結論：第一個，部長，現在不要變成是踢皮球，高雄市政府說很多責任都在中央的內政部、經濟部跟農業部，因為是經濟部核准的，請做一件事情，把你們當初核定的範圍、土地數量跟總面積，還有把中央的責任跟地方的責任清清楚楚地釐清，好不好？這個文有到你那邊，對不對？第二個，山坡地的開發要更嚴格，目前這個規範，山坡地以前都沒有做環評，山坡地是不是另外要受到限制？要整體趕快好好來檢討，好不好？另外，這個案子一年光是營收可以賺大概4.2億，結果到目前為止，高雄市政府才裁罰108萬，能源署裁罰150萬，就像「蠓仔叮牛角」，這根本就沒有影響啊！對它來講，一年賺4.2億耶！你們這個裁罰太低了。我明確地要求，因為它有可能被你們撤銷，對不對？它還規定如果租期屆滿之後，這個土地還要復原，但那個山已經被他們剷平了，怎麼去復原？這個東西要好好去追究。","最後，我做一個要求，現在看起來山坡地不是只有剛剛講的這兩個案子，部長，你能答應我嗎？關於你們的光電推動裡面，如果也是山坡地的能不能一個月內提出一個整體的報告跟解決方案？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，一起搶救人命啦！真的要跟時間賽跑，高雄市的文這麼慢來，打個電話問一下，好不好？老實講，如果最近發生颱風、鬧出人命，我跟你說，這個不是行政責任，而是有刑事責任，好不好？我們跟時間賽跑，加油！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們跟高雄市政府在上個禮拜就已經針對這個命題進入深度的研究，我們並沒有像你講的漠不關心，這一點我必須要在這個地方說明一下。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，若你有關心，速度為什麼這麼慢？一個禮拜……"],["郭部長智輝：有一些就是要法定規定啊！"],["張委員啓楷：高雄市政府都已經說……"],["郭部長智輝：我們將來可以來這個地方送一些修法請委員來幫忙啦！謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：修法是在後面，現在趕快跟時間賽跑，一個禮拜真的太久了啦！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：你們既然有聯絡，趕快加快速度，好不好？民眾都在等，跟時間賽跑、搶救人命，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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上個禮拜開始應對接下來本席要跟你討論的我們請交通部次長也一併上來今天的主題高齡化我國智慧公共運具發展的目標我認為除了長遠的智慧運作發展是非常重要那公共運輸的部分我相信也必須要兼具的現狀"},{"start":208.072,"end":228.279,"text":"落地有效如我們台中小王公車台中的服務員山海豚到梨山都是我們的所以在這樣的情況之下有很多的偏鄉所以早期大客車比較不容易進來的那所以呢我們民眾有時候等一班公車要等好久好久在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":229.119,"end":245.063,"text":"有時候根本沒有車可以搭在這個偏鄉那所以呢我們台中市府就推出了小黃公車用計程車來取代大客車依照固定的路線固定的班次不僅它成本來節省也讓長輩讓學童讓身心障礙者以及讓通行者都能夠更加的受惠那盧市長上任之後呢我們更擴大"},{"start":255.905,"end":261.73,"text":"小王公車的這個政策我也參與其中我也參與其中 甚至我們涵蓋了原市區以及我們縣區的三海屯總共21個22個行政區162里超過的班次有有這個26萬班次使用的服務的人次有達到178907人所以小王公車在整個補上運量"},{"start":285.129,"end":293.412,"text":"不大 但是呢它實際上是非常非常的有效能因為它可以將需求的這個關鍵搭配呢可以降低成本所以在這邊要請教我們台中的小王公車是不是地方創新是一個成功的典範 次長"},{"start":306.274,"end":334.386,"text":"包委員確實能夠把偏鄉的服務依照他的需求提供而且滿足是非常創新而且重要非常創新而且重要而且是一個成功的典範我們的部分就是您所知的幸福巴士跟幸福小房也一起來合作所以當時本席也特別低量本席也特別到現場去鼓勵所以本席要請教中央你是不是應該既然他是成功的"},{"start":335.406,"end":338.03,"text":"而且是協助那在這樣的情況之下是不是應該要主動盤點全國還有哪一些的區塊他是否可以導入建立一個跨部位的協調平台從交通從經濟甚至在數位發展的一起來推動智慧型的"},{"start":352.688,"end":367.33,"text":"小型運輸是謝謝委員這應該的這應該的對已經盤點到這個程度有些工作必須要重新思考哪些需求沒有被滿足所以你認同這個方向所以接下來我要請教經濟部長要麻煩縣市政府多幫忙"},{"start":367.991,"end":383.004,"text":"縣市長我多幫忙 但是你中央要負責我們的經濟部長我知道這個對中央來講交通部他是主責但是我們經濟部我認為佔了很重要的角色也就是我們是不是可以透過中小企業相關的資源來協助車行的升級"},{"start":388.208,"end":405.82,"text":"車輛要升級啊 車輛不升級 它拍出來沒有辦法這麼樣的迅速有效第一個 車輛升級 比如說我們導入了電動車 數位派遣AI的排班系統 讓小王公車它不只是交通工具 它更是智慧交通的一個轉型"},{"start":408.584,"end":434.221,"text":"市長請你注意聽到 加雙市長是是謝謝委員的這個垂行這個部分我們馬上回來這個嚴明一下子好 非常感謝市長你聽到了部長願意要協助透過我們整合中小企業相關的這個資源所以我們希望小車也能夠有大力量那地方敢做能做的我們也希望經濟部他不是只有盤關就像部長我非常的這個這個讚許你願意"},{"start":436.963,"end":452.849,"text":"一起跟交通部 我們從地方的資源 相關的中小企業資源跟交通部一起來做那在這樣的情況之下呢 我們覺得整個永續的在地的這個交通新模式 它是需要去落實的所以目前我們補助重大 這個大增運輸的部分都涵蓋在大型的營業者"},{"start":459.671,"end":481.966,"text":"那對於剛剛交通部經濟部都認可的我們的這個小黃這一類的小型微型的經營者也應該要建立更友善的營運獎勵這個營運的這個獎勵措施讓地方真正成如剛剛交通部次長所說的他是地方創新地方業者也能夠投入帶動整個這個經濟鏈的一個成長那是否可以擴及到我們這種小型微型的一個經營者"},{"start":490.291,"end":504.797,"text":"是謝謝委員吹薰這一部分凡是對我們國家這個中小微企業有幫助的這一些所有的這個推動活動我們中小企業署我們一定是不遺餘力全力以赴"},{"start":505.077,"end":526.442,"text":"非常的感謝因為剛剛我特別先請交通次長來回答喔那這個呢在交通部跟經濟部大家都是非常認可我們在地方探求民眾的需求那麼多久時間可以研擬一套這個方案獎勵措施告訴我們讓我們地方的微型企業都能夠能夠得到政府的支持肯定跟落實"},{"start":527.322,"end":543.325,"text":"是我們來跟這個中小企業署我想我們三個月內然後訪問這個所有的業者的心聲那麼看實際的這個可以產生什麼樣的效益我們三個月內可以提出來這一份的報告好那在討論的當中我也請交通部在這邊你要加入其中經濟部願意協助我們要謝謝我們希望在三個月內能夠得到一個答案交通部請回接下來本席要請問"},{"start":554.707,"end":576.741,"text":"部長再生能源我們再來討論一下目標你一再跳票是2026年是不是會達標我們希望能夠達標但是部長我們討論的能源政策呢我看到2025年再生能源的配比是20%但是到今年的上半年我們初估大概是16.3%後來又說要到2026年11月份才能夠達成我請問2026年的目標會再跳票嗎"},{"start":584.105,"end":602.001,"text":"報告委員2026年到目前為止我們很肯定的跟委員報告我們絕對不會讓他跳票2026年達到再生能源的20%不會被跳票因為北京今天看到這個在報紙上面你們說擴大無限量的發電量是否如此"},{"start":602.95,"end":619.041,"text":"是否如此 是要因應這個2026年不會跳票嗎 是嗎是 我們現在在尋求各種的跨部門的協商我們希望以2026年不跳票作為我們最重要的一個方式以2026年"},{"start":620.362,"end":623.924,"text":"不跳票的方式去尋找各種方式去落實接下來我們來討論原本強調的你的風光電太陽光的這個部分裝置容量2025年是達到20GW的目標但是去年也宣布是跳票了"},{"start":635.509,"end":643.495,"text":"那你跳票也是延長到2026年但是我們看到光電的部分離20GW的目標我們還缺了5.49GW的一個缺口那學者業者都認為那一年如果增加兩個GW都了不得了那在這樣的情況之下都不看好2026年的這個打標會不會再延後"},{"start":658.106,"end":675.042,"text":"光電的部分我們確實有碰到盧委員所垂行的這樣的一個困難但是我們在其他的方法其他的部分譬如說我們從這個風電還有這個地熱或者是水利我們希望能夠再加快"},{"start":675.723,"end":678.364,"text":"所以剛剛部長你的回答也就是太陽光太陽光確定2026年還是達不到還會再延後我們2026年的11月達標還是我們第一個任務我們一定要想辦法達標我們只是說怕萬一"},{"start":695.312,"end":706.464,"text":"怕萬一因為我們還仍然需要有一些地方政府的支持請問的是結果論喔2026年你達到20幾個月會達標嗎以目前我們的規劃會以目前的規劃 但是落實的腳程呢"},{"start":717.648,"end":733.206,"text":"也是會 會達標落實的腳程也會達標是 但是我們需要所有國人大家共同的配合你有這個但是就是表示目前是有疑慮的沒有 這個是我們對於法彼此的認知啦那我肯定的告訴你會達標好"},{"start":735.528,"end":742.01,"text":"2026年你認為太陽光電的部分呢是2026年會達到20%或是會達標那接下來本席跟你討論風電的部分風電2025年呢那麼你要達到5.6GW但是現在大概是3GW那進度會延後嗎也會不達標嗎風電我們會提早風電會提早在2025年你會達到5.6GW嗎"},{"start":761.46,"end":770.226,"text":"2026年 我們還是2026年所以你的2025年要達到5.6計高的話是已經跳票所以宣布到2026年 請說明清楚那個是在過去的啊這個延一年也是在過去所承諾的事情好 所以你現在的封建是這所承諾的事情一定要2026因為你2025已經跳票 人民會怕啊那你現在2026 本席請教"},{"start":791.281,"end":810.549,"text":"會不會跳票那個報告委員2025年延到2026年是因為COVID的關係所以當時上一任上一屆的這個政府有承諾讓他們延一年但我來接這個部長的時候就是完成2020年所以換句話說2026年你的這個風電的部分5.6GW你是要達到的"},{"start":816.738,"end":842.418,"text":"是的好最後結論每年全國的電量上升不斷的在上升對不對部長需求量是上升的需求量我們都有估在我們計畫裡面當然是上升當然是上升那麼實際上我們發電量與20%的對應是有差距的因為政府的規劃在2030年再生能源的部分佔比是30%燃氣49%燃煤是多少呢"},{"start":844.38,"end":849.404,"text":"2030年本期告訴你但是我們也聽到也看到考量便利的需求的成長率是2.1%對不對每一年的成長率大概2%2.1%是 報告委員您的資料是2.1那我們估的是2.4"},{"start":864.216,"end":872.982,"text":"2.4還有需求那就是說我們每一年一直在增加好這個有個故事也就是每一年的需求電量是增加的所以屆時再生能源的發電量預計要將比2024年的330"},{"start":880.245,"end":895.87,"text":"333億度會增加到2013年我們預估的2013年的976億度那換句話說是2024年的三倍所以本市要請教再生能源實際上的發電達到多少2024年及2025年到底數字是多少這個詳情的數目是請容許我回去再確認以後再跟您報告"},{"start":903.888,"end":906.469,"text":"你頭腦現在沒有這個東西這個讓我們會害怕因為我們這個是最重要的能源政策而且2030年是確定要怎麼樣會有多少發電量這個應該我們的幕僚都有清楚吧怎麼會現在回答不出來呢"},{"start":919.813,"end":930.887,"text":"您槌尋的完全正確啦是 謝謝我必須要準備啦所以我想下一次是不是請你提早告訴我我來這邊接受您執行部長 部長我已經非常非常"},{"start":934.952,"end":949.26,"text":"理性的跟你討論所以我要的是2024年以及你預估2025年的數字因為已經告訴我們每一年的這個電量成長率是2甚至2.1 2.2現在你們估到2.4所以換句話說你們應該會知道"},{"start":951.761,"end":955.965,"text":"到底我們2030年我們的發電量到底是多少才能夠讓我們很有信心的實際上你的發電量是足夠的嘛那如果連這個足夠的我們都不知道數字那我們怎麼相信是呢報告委員我是說我現在腦袋裡面沒有這個數字我必須要從我同仁那邊來接受這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":974.701,"end":979.363,"text":"也謝謝部長你的誠實你的誠實我也希望得到正確的這個數字請會後數字給本席我希望的再生能源它不是口號因為大家針對於能源政策跟現實的落差大家都是非常關鍵在關心也鼓勵政府要好好的做民眾也希望能夠得到一個正確的答案嘛對不對我們完全的這個看法是一致的"},{"start":1001.055,"end":1007.299,"text":"因為任何能源是非常非常非常重要因為我們不希望又再跳票又再失言企業的看盤查投資布局企業的投資布局他們關係的我們能源到底足不足他們要怎麼樣的來布局所以這一點是非常重要我要請部長我也感謝你誠實的回答你頭腦沒有這個數字但是這個誠實也希望能夠真正的去落實我們的數字"},{"start":1031.655,"end":1042.981,"text":"問到以後就會給你問到以後給我這個應該是你頭腦裡面就已經有這麼重大的決策一起加油希望讓民眾能夠安心好不好不要再跳票謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時29分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，我們看到媒體報導伊朗準備要封鎖荷姆茲海峽，大家都知道荷姆茲海峽是國際運輸、運原油非常重要的航道，如果封鎖了之後，請教部長，對我們的影響有多大呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還在評估，我們有各種不同的選項……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們有掌控這個訊息？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是從上個禮拜開始就掌控這個訊息。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：您認為在評估之後如果成真，在應該會成真的情況之下，對我們影響會多大？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會根據國際油價的走勢做不同的推論，譬如說，現在油價來到80塊這個區間，我們有80塊的作法；當國際油價來到100塊，對100塊我們有什麼樣的對策，包括要從哪個地方取得比較具現貨的報價，包括120、140塊，我們都有不斷地做推論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有各種的方案去應對之？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們有多少的天然氣跟原油會從荷姆茲海峽通過呢？"],["郭部長智輝：目前來講這個部分的話，詳細的要通過荷姆茲海峽應該……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止，大概會有多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在所盤出來的，以目前來看，應該是低於20%。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：低於20%是目前我們所掌控的訊息，所以換句話說，封鎖了之後，對我們影響還是很大、甚鉅？"],["郭部長智輝：對我們的影響就是要繞過荷姆茲海峽，這個影響對我們來講可能就是到貨的時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你的成本一定會增加，時間啊！時間會更長嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：時間當然會更長，那是運費的部分啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對、對！當然。"],["郭部長智輝：運費的部分能夠攤提下來，其實不多啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：攤提不多，但影響是20%以下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在是市場行情在漲的時候會影響到我們的油價，我們都有推論啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以預估如果封鎖了荷姆茲海峽，原油有可能會漲？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有一套計算的模式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有可能會漲，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：當然會漲。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個對我們會有影響，我們一定要審慎對之，現在大家都全力以赴。"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是非常審慎地評估……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：審慎評估。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們有各種不同階段的影響評估，我們在上個禮拜都已經做過了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，上個禮拜開始應對。接下來本席要跟你討論的，請交通部次長也一併上來。"],["主席：林次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：今天的主題「因應高齡化，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」，我認為除了長遠的智慧運具發展是非常重要，在公共運輸的部分，我相信也必須要兼具的現狀是落地、有效，如臺中小黃公車，臺中的幅員山海屯到梨山都是我們的，在這樣的情況之下有很多的偏鄉。早期大客車比較不容易進來的地方，民眾有時候等一班公車要等好久好久，在這樣的情況之下，在偏鄉有時候根本沒有車可以搭，所以臺中市府就推出小黃公車，用計程車來取代大客車，依照固定的路線、固定的班次，不僅節省成本，也讓長輩、讓學童、讓身心障礙者以及讓通行者都能夠更加受惠。從盧市長上任之後，我們更擴大小黃公車的政策，我也參與其中，甚至我們涵蓋原市區以及縣區的山海屯，總共22個行政區、162里，超過的班次有26萬班次，使用服務的人次達到17萬8,907人。雖然小黃公車能補上的運量不大，但它實際上是非常非常地有效能，因為它可以滿足需求、降低成本。所以在這邊要請教次長，臺中的小黃公車是不是地方創新的成功典範？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，確實能夠把偏鄉的服務，依照它的需求提供而且滿足，是非常創新且很重要的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常創新且重要，而且是一個成功的典範。"],["林次長國顯：對。我們的部分就是您熟知的幸福巴士跟幸福小黃也一起來合作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一起合作，對。當時本席也特別到現場去鼓勵，所以本席要請教，既然它是成功的，而且是協助民眾，在這樣的情況之下，是不是應該要主動盤點全國還有哪一些區塊是否可以導入建立一個跨部會的協調平臺，從交通、從經濟，甚至在數位發展的部分，一起來推動智慧型的小型運輸？"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員，這應該的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這應該的喔！"],["林次長國顯：對，已經盤點到這個程度，有些工作必須要重新思考哪些需求沒有被滿足。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！所以你認同這個方向？接下來我要請教經濟部長……"],["林次長國顯：我認同，以後麻煩縣市政府多幫忙。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：縣市政府多幫忙，但是中央要負責啊！請經濟部長。"],["林次長國顯：沒有問題，謝謝。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我知道對中央來講，交通部是主責，但是我認為經濟部占了很重要的角色，也就是我們是不是可以透過中小企業相關的資源來協助車行的升級，車行要升級啊！車行不升級，派車沒有辦法迅速、有效。第一個車行升級，比如說，我們導入電動車、數位派遣、AI的排班系統，讓小黃公車不只是交通工具，更是智慧交通的轉型，部長？交通部次長，請你注意聽。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的垂詢。這個部分我們馬上回去研擬一下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，非常感謝。次長，你聽到了，部長願意協助，透過整合中小企業相關的資源，我們希望小車也能夠有大力量，地方敢做、能做的，我們也希望經濟部不是只有旁觀，就像部長，我非常地讚許你願意一起跟交通部合作，我們從地方的資源、相關的中小企業資源跟交通部一起來做，在這樣的情況之下，我們覺得整個永續、在地的交通新模式是需要去落實的。目前我們補助大眾運輸的部分都涵蓋大型的營業者，對於剛剛交通部、經濟部都認可的小黃這一類小型、微型的經營者，也應該要建立更友善的營運獎勵措施，誠如剛剛交通部次長所說的，它是地方創新，地方業者也能夠投入，帶動整個經濟鏈的成長，是否可以擴及到小型、微型的經營者，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員垂詢。這一部分，凡是對國家中小微企業有幫助的推動活動，中小企業署一定是不遺餘力，全力以赴來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常地感謝。剛剛我特別先請交通部次長回答，這部分在交通部跟經濟部，大家都是非常認可，我們在地方探求民瘼、民眾的需求，請問多久時間可以研擬一套方案、獎勵措施告訴我們，讓地方的微型企業都能夠得到政府的支持、肯定跟落實，請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們來跟中小企業署，在三個月內訪問所有業者的心聲，看實際可以產生什麼樣的效益，我們三個月內可以提出報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，在討論當中，我也請交通部要加入其中，經濟部願意協助，我們要謝謝，我們希望在三個月內能夠得到一個答案。交通部請回。","接下來，本席要請問部長，我們再來討論一下再生能源，目標你一再跳票，2026年是不是會達標？我們希望能夠達標。但是部長，我們討論的能源政策，我看到2025年再生能源的配比是20%，但是到今年的上半年，粗估大概是16.3%，後來又說要到2026年11月份才能夠達成，請問2026年的目標會再跳票嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，到目前為止，我們很肯定地跟委員報告，我們絕對不會讓2026年跳票。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2026年達到再生能源的20%，不會被跳票！"],["郭部長智輝：20%，我們絕對不會讓它跳票。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席今天也在報紙上面看到，你們說擴大無限量的發電量，是否如此？是否如此？是要因應2026年不會跳票嗎？是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在在尋求各種跨部門的協商，希望以2026年不跳票作為我們最重要的方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以2026年不跳票去尋找各種方式落實。接下來我們討論，原本強調的風光電，太陽光的部分，裝置容量2025年是達到20GW的目標，但是去年也宣布跳票了，你跳票也是延長到2026年，我們看到光電的部分離20GW的目標還缺了5.49GW的缺口，學者、業者都認為一年如果增加2個GW就不得了，在這樣的情況之下都不看好2026年的達標，會不會再延後？"],["郭部長智輝：光電的部分，我們確實有碰到如委員所垂詢的困難，但是我們在其他的方法、其他的部分，譬如說我們從風電還有地熱或者是水力，我們希望能夠再加快來滿足2%這樣一個目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以剛剛部長的回答也就是太陽光確定2026年還是達不到，還會再延後？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，報告委員，2026年11月達標還是我們第一個任務，一定要想辦法達標，我們只是說怕萬一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怕萬一，我記得了，怕萬一。"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為我們仍然需要有一些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的目標還是希望達標。"],["郭部長智輝：我們要有一些地方政府的支持，要很多人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席請問的是結果論，2026年20 GW會達標嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：以目前我們的規劃會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以目前的規劃，但是落實的腳程？"],["郭部長智輝：也是會達標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：落實的腳程也會達標？"],["郭部長智輝：是，但是我們需要所有國人大家共同的配合。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有這個「但是」就是表示目前是有疑慮的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，這個是我們的語法、彼此的認知，我很肯定地告訴你會達標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你認為太陽光電的部分是2026年會達到20%，就是會達標。接下來本席跟你討論風電的部分，風電2025年你要達到5.6 GW，但是現在大約是3GW，進度會延後嗎？也會不達標嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：風電我們會提早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：風電會提早，在2025年會達到5.6 GW嗎？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：我們還是2026年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你的2025年要達到5.6 GW是已經跳票，所以宣布到2026年？請說明清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：那個是在過去，延一年也是在過去所承諾的事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以你現在的風電是2026……"],["郭部長智輝：對承諾的事情一定要落實嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你2025已經跳票，人民會怕，你現在說2026，本席請教會不會跳票？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，2025年延到2026年是因為COVID的關係，所以當時上一任、上一屆的政府有承諾讓他們延一年，我來接部長的時候就是2026年完成……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說2026年風電的部分5.6 GW是要達到的？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，最後結論，每年全國的電量不斷在上升，對不對？部長，需求量是上升的。"],["郭部長智輝：需求量我們都有估在我們的計畫裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是上升的嘛！是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：當然是上升。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：實際上我們發電量與20%的對應是有差距的，因為政府的規劃，2030年再生能源的部分占比是30%、燃氣49%，燃煤是多少呢？20%。"],["郭部長智輝：那是2030年，你現在所垂詢的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，2030年，本席告訴你，但是我們也聽到、也看到，考量電力需求的成長率是2.1%，對不對？每一年的成長率大概2%，每一年2.1%。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，您的資料是2.1%啦，我們估的是2.4%。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是說我們每一年的需求一直在增加。好，有這個故事，也就是每一年的需求電量是增加的，所以屆時再生能源的發電量，預計將要比2024年的333億度，會增加到2030年預估的976億度，換句話說是2024年的3倍，所以本席要請教，再生能源實際上的發電達到多少？2024年及2025年，到底數字是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：詳細的數目字請容許我回去確認以後再跟您報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你頭腦現在沒有這個東西？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個讓我們會害怕，因為這個是最重要的能源政策，而且2030年是確定要怎麼樣會有多少發電量，這個幕僚應該都清楚吧！怎麼會現在回答不出來呢？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，您垂詢的完全正確。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：只是我必須要準備，所以我想下一次是不是請你提早告訴我，我來這邊接受您質詢……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我已經非常非常理性地跟你討論，所以我要的是2024年以及你預估2025年的數字，因為已經告訴我們每一年的電量成長率是2，甚至2.1、2.2，現在你們估到2.4，所以換句話說，你們應該會知道2030年的發電量到底是多少，才能夠讓我們對於實際上你的發電量是足夠的很有信心嘛！如果連這個足夠的數字我們都不知道，那我們怎麼相信之呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是說我現在腦袋裡面沒有這個數字，我必須要從我同仁那邊來接收這樣的一個訊息……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，也謝謝部長你的誠實，我也希望得到正確的數字，請會後把數字給本席，我希望再生能源不是口號，因為大家針對於能源政策跟現實的落差都是非常關鍵在關心，也鼓勵政府要好好做，民眾也希望能夠得到一個正確的答案嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的看法是完全一致的，因為任何能源都非常非常非常重要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，因為我們不希望又再跳票、又再次延，企業的碳盤查、投資布局，他們關心我們能源到底足不足、他們要怎麼樣來布局，所以這一點是非常重要，我要請部長……"],["郭部長智輝：是，這一點我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我也感謝你誠實地回答你頭腦沒有這個數字，但是這個誠實也希望能夠真正地去落實我們的數字。"],["郭部長智輝：這個數字我等一下問到了以後就會給你。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：問到以後給我，這個應該是你頭腦裡面就已經要有，這麼重大的決策，一起加油，希望能夠讓民眾安心，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要再跳票，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們現在請張啓楷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩有請法務部次長 矯正署署長請黃次長 周署長兩位好 次長 接下來的問題啊如果你不熟的話 沒有關係 請署長代答先不用先得到我的許可之前啊 法務部說啊 智慧安全監鎖好萊塢大片啊 將成真"},{"start":34.517,"end":61.738,"text":"搞大內宣非常的會我也希望智慧監所能夠真的落實能夠實現總是一個願景嘛但是我們的八德外預監花了納稅人將近29億元29億有一個興建統包的工程案我之前署長應該還記得我已經問過這件事了"},{"start":64.534,"end":82.902,"text":"我們本來竣工的日期第一階段2022年3月2號第二階段2022年11月9號現在是2025年啦到今天為止竣工了沒有 請教"},{"start":84.985,"end":103.351,"text":"報告委員現在我們第一階段是進攻第二階段還沒進攻但是我們預定我們希望在年底前可以2022年11月9號要進攻搞到現在2025年沒有進攻我上一次問你的時候你還記不記得你告訴我什麼時候要進攻還記不記得我們在這邊曾經有過的質詢你還記不記得"},{"start":115.185,"end":129.032,"text":"忘記了那時候我們是希望說在上半年啦上半年就是六月份的時候來來來來來你那時候跟我講什麼你那時候跟我講說2024年年底要完成我有記錯嗎2024年那因為他有一些經營權的爭議那是廠商的問題嘛提和解關我們什麼事"},{"start":144.386,"end":171.758,"text":"那是廠商的問題嘛不管廠商是A經營 B經營 C經營 D經營跟政府之間簽的契約你敢得標你就要履約嘛搞到現在喔搞到現在喔我進一步看啊2025年上半年 你去年跟我講年底要完成那部長今年"},{"start":173.103,"end":198.292,"text":"提給社交法治委員會的報告說上半年要完成上半年有完成嗎現在應該是已經要下半年了吧報告委員我們就是巴德也盡量努力來完成盡量努力嘛好來我們來看一下你們怎麼樣要努力啦小戰署發函給巴德外議監說齁不要再延不要再延期了啦這是你們發的函嗎是"},{"start":202.699,"end":219.865,"text":"什麼時候?7月中要竣工,做得到嗎?現在應該是希望說不要希望啦,做不做得到就給一個乾脆的答案現在要到年底喔?年底完成竣工退縮阿你們矯正署自己都退縮了喔?"},{"start":220.922,"end":240.696,"text":"阿你不是發函給巴德外一間7月15號要完成並不是退收現在是第六次他們有提行政案工程會來做和解所謂的仲裁那跟他去不去不跟他有什麼關係因為有一些有涉及到所謂驗收的問題來我們來看我們來看驗收的問題阿花了納稅的29億阿2022年"},{"start":249.42,"end":276.713,"text":"就應該要完工了我的法務部現在是搞大內宣很會啊那個媒體怎麼會出這種報導我看了我都覺得很驚訝你要搞大內宣沒有關係啊你要作秀擺拍也沒有關係啊事情要做到嘛事情沒做到還搞大內宣作秀擺拍好萊塢大片納稅人看了會淌血啊29億耶"},{"start":278.766,"end":293.137,"text":"不是29萬欸29億欸29億給你們預算搞成這個樣子喔來 搞成什麼樣子我們接下來要看啊2025年6月2號審計部查核意見法務部有沒有收到有收到了不僅法務部收到啊我掌握的東西連行政院秘書長都收到了查核意見講什麼"},{"start":308.322,"end":313.266,"text":"該間分別於112年1到3月辦理出院112年是2023年啊早就過了應該竣工的期間啊驗生不合格項目多達2279項2279項不是2項不是22項是2279項最關鍵的是什麼到今年3月底"},{"start":337.045,"end":361.72,"text":"部分驗收日已耗損一年八個月餘還有部分缺失21項初驗缺失9項還有30個缺失沒有完成改善重點是下面根本沒有辦法發揮智慧監獄的功能這是我們審計部說的法務部接到審計部這樣子的一個審計報告做了什麼檢討"},{"start":366.3,"end":373.87,"text":"做了什麼究責來請法務部次長還是收到這個文了以後看一看丟到旁邊反正審計部來歸審計部來言者尊尊聽者渺渺"},{"start":378.015,"end":380.496,"text":"依照合約精神我們都會督促矯正署來督促依照合約精神"},{"start":407.725,"end":433.175,"text":"他得外意見來要求廠商你依照合約精神可以做什麼就是要求他要把這些缺失改善完才可以完成這個驗手造成的延遲造成國家的損失誰要負責這個部分呢因為廠商也有提這個工程會的調解所以我們也在跟他這兩碼子是嘛那是廠商的救濟嘛現在我的問題是站在法務部的立場該做什麼可以做什麼"},{"start":433.755,"end":459.966,"text":"對我們因為跟他是這個合約關係所以我們也是依照合約經常要求依照合約可以做什麼不要講空的啦現在階段就是還在調解調解如果不成的話未來可能會延誼或是否進行訴訟延誼進行訴訟對啊你要跟他要求什麼你的訴訟標的訴之聲明是什麼就是如果契約不履行的話依照合約可能有違約金可能有違約金市長這個案子你有掌握嗎"},{"start":460.929,"end":484.975,"text":"我有初步掌握我看你很不熟我為什麼說你很不熟我接下來帶你看你為什麼剛剛講的全部都是空的在同一份審計報告裡面全部都點出來了來我們往下看三道門人臉辨識系統的缺失改善完了沒有這上次喔我去巴德外醫間我自己去拍了照"},{"start":486.294,"end":497.484,"text":"那個時候你們跟我說要花一點時間改善三道門很重要嘛你防止脫逃三道門不能同時開嘛三道門的缺失現在改善完成沒有"},{"start":498.895,"end":518.626,"text":"報告委員他們有送我們這邊但是我們要以比較高標準的平率比較多正常可以正常可以發揮功能可以嗎所以我們現在還沒有給他驗收通過因為我們要換言之這個缺失還沒有改善完對不對整個問題回答就好了"},{"start":520.467,"end":545.729,"text":"他有送上來讓我們覺得說要用高頻率穩定的狀況下沒問題我們才會認說通過所以缺失還沒有改善完成對不對是不是現在還沒有核定通過沒有改善完成就沒有改善完成嘛這我去年的質詢內容啊我已經一而再再而三提醒法務部啊我開始追的事情我一定會一路追下去啊29億啊"},{"start":548.26,"end":553.648,"text":"我再提醒一次啊 29億啊千事器缺失改善完的嗎這也是我去年問的"},{"start":564.017,"end":581.375,"text":"監視器的部分是算弱電部分的部分這個部分我們有要求但是廠商他有進度但是進度不如理想沒關係嘛就繼續拖嘛為什麼廠商敢擺爛為什麼超過合約的期間這麼久"},{"start":586.072,"end":612.434,"text":"我繼續給你拖嘛反正呢我們的法務部我們的矯正署遇到這樣的問題有缺失啊來改善有缺失啊來改善我繼續拖繼續混今天如果遲延一個月我用這麼嚴厲的態度啊來質問法務部可能是我不夠厚道我再提醒一次啊2022年就要進攻現在是2025年"},{"start":613.888,"end":625.674,"text":"你們每一次跟立法院講的提到立法院的報告是一而再 再而三跳票為什麼這個廠商敢這麼皮啊來因為損害賠償以契約價金總額20%為上限超過20啦現在早就超過20啦超過20你能拿我怎麼樣你拿我給我沒皮條啊"},{"start":645.526,"end":671.667,"text":"我繼續辭言下去還是百分之二十啊連審計部都看不下去了啊審計部怎麼講 我唸給你聽啊該監 就講得八德外一監明明知道 契約所定 辭言履約罰則 應祭 祭罰上限已喪失實質約束管制的效果卻沒有等於主管機關的職責積極採取適當作為"},{"start":676.821,"end":702.24,"text":"這是審計部的意見這個意見看過沒有委員這個你沒有換紅線的部分他有說因為我們考量到是巴德外意見的考量是辦理解約並重新發包有關工程結算及雜標作業時間可能仍需一年以上作業時間這是part 2的問題嗎對不是這個是巴德外意見為什麼沒有這個解約來做但是我們先從一個部分一個部分來嘛審計部說"},{"start":704.397,"end":705.88,"text":"你們沒有採取積極"},{"start":708.311,"end":735.257,"text":"適當的作為審計部講的有沒有道理他的所謂的積極作為就是要我們解約嘛因為這一個所謂20%上限指的是食鹽的部分嘛如果他最後是工程項目沒有達到沒有完成驗收在那個部分就不是受這個20%上限所以對於審計部對你們的指責法務部不是很滿意就對了我們是認為說有不同的考量好 沒關係我們再看再往下看法務部跟審計部啊有哪些不一樣的考量"},{"start":736.57,"end":748.985,"text":"巴德外意見推動企業進駐要不要依照政府採購法辦理要還是不要法務部的意見是什麼需要依照政府採購法"},{"start":750.636,"end":778.584,"text":"這個委員 我想你調查過這個資料是所以呢 這個巴德外一間是依照這個公有財運所的相關規定是來交由市政府所以要不要適用政府採購法這個法令的體系是不一樣的所以要不要適用政府採購法他走那一邊是不適用政府採購法不適用政府採購法所以政府採購法第99條的規定就在規定BOT嘛"},{"start":781.377,"end":797.104,"text":"除其他法律令有規定者適用本法之規定啊這不只BOT對 你講得非常的好我們再往下看 審計部怎麼講該適用政府採購法 沒有適用政府採購法辦理過程違法審計部講的話很重喔"},{"start":800.714,"end":812.783,"text":"他說工程會函釋本案應該是用政府採購法第99條規定辦理過程險欠合法險欠合法就是不合法啦"},{"start":814.206,"end":837.854,"text":"工程會都函釋給你們了結果該監對於前刊函釋未施檢討改善卻自行認定符合政府採購法精神一直沒有為釋法的處理嚴重傷害政府採購的公開透明及公平性審計部的這個意見法務部接不接受"},{"start":839.195,"end":854.585,"text":"我想未來我們會盡可能的避免這個方式來做這個案子啊他給你的檢討意見啊說你顯然違法啊告訴你違法還不檢討改進繼續硬凹審計部寫的比較文言文實質的內容就是這樣嘛"},{"start":856.581,"end":882.499,"text":"我想我也看到這個裡面巴德外一間的主張是說他用所有公用不動產品所以我們應該聽巴德外一間的主張還是聽審計部加上工程會的主張巴德外一間現在是很大是不是審計部講什麼不重要工程會的含釋也不重要巴德外一間愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞是這樣嗎是嗎還是因為巴德外一間合作的對象是誰巴德外一間合作的對象是"},{"start":886.803,"end":912.084,"text":"桃園市政府鄭文燦主政的桃園市政府所以法務部不敢處理啊怎麼處理下去當初違法亂搞的就巴德外一間跟鄭文燦亂搞嘛我想這個跟這個沒有關係啦對啊那如果沒有關係的話 主要是適用法規的人的問題 審計部的糾正報告工程會的函式以及名詞我們的法務部啊 違法還不是檢討改進啊現在法務部願意檢討改進了嗎"},{"start":916.533,"end":941.162,"text":"我想我剛剛已經說明得很清楚了我們會來檢討 省立部會來檢討要不要追究責任看檢討的結果檢討需要多久需要多久請署長顧一下檢討不是講空話啦檢討需要多久 一個月夠不夠我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員您有提到的巴德外間有沒有盡責這個部分"},{"start":942.864,"end":959.622,"text":"不好意思喔 我跟你講剛剛我唸的每一個字都是審計部的報告審計部的報告說辦理過程顯現合法就是不合法嘛接下來又再講誰未失據與檢討改善這也是審計部講的啊這不是我黃國昌講的啊"},{"start":963.93,"end":976.101,"text":"審計部白紙黑字寫成這個樣子剛次長也說要檢討我現在的問題很具體檢討要多久怎麼追究責任需要多久 一個月夠不夠我等你一個月啊 夠不夠"},{"start":978.175,"end":990.263,"text":"還是沒有人要檢討所以不敢給時間因為八德該計劃一採購法都是計劃而且已經計劃到四億多了人家審計部說你違法嘛你繳證書說審計部講審計部的嘛現在這個就是問題了嘛現在是什麼繳證書很大審計部說你違法"},{"start":1003.049,"end":1028.218,"text":"你還不承認 還不處理剛市長說要檢討嘛那檢討需要多久 我只剩最後這個問題對啦 我們本來就會需要多久一部的查核意見會做出相應的檢討需要多久這個部分 因為八德外監還有矯正所需要作業期程是 需要多久我們原則上希望一兩個月內來提出好不好一個月好不好兩個月可以嗎兩個月太久了 就一個月好不好"},{"start":1029.939,"end":1032.604,"text":"因為我剛剛請這個財政署來提啦多久給你財 我代你尊重一個半月啦好 一個半月 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時28分）謝謝召委，麻煩有請法務部次長、矯正署署長。"],["主席：請黃次長、周署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。次長，接下來的問題如果你不熟的話沒有關係，請署長代答，不用先得到我的許可。"],["黃次長世杰：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：之前法務部說智慧安全監所，好萊塢大片將成真，搞大內宣非常的會，我也希望智慧監所能夠真的落實，能夠實現，總是一個願景嘛！但是八德外役監花了納稅人將近29億元，有一個新建統包的工程案，署長應該還記得，之前我已經問過這件事，本來竣工日期第一階段是2022年3月2號，第二階段是2022年11月9號，現在是2025年，請教到今天為止竣工了沒有？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，現在第一階段是竣工，第二階段還沒竣工，但是我們預定希望在年底前可以竣工驗收完畢。"],["黃委員國昌：2022年11月9號要竣工，搞到現在2025年沒有竣工，我上一次問你的時候，你還記不記得你告訴我什麼時候要竣工？還記不記得我們在這邊曾經有過的質詢，你還記不記得？忘記了？"],["周署長輝煌：那時候我們是希望在上半年。"],["黃委員國昌：上半年？"],["周署長輝煌：就是希望在6月份的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來，你那個時候跟我講什麼？你那時候跟我講2024年年底要完成，我有記錯嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：2024年，因為它有一些經營權的爭議，包括提和解、仲裁……"],["黃委員國昌：那是廠商的問題嘛！關我們什麼事？那個是廠商的問題嘛！不管廠商是A經營、B經營、C經營、D經營，跟政府之間簽的契約，你敢得標，你就要履約嘛！搞到現在喔！我進一步看2025年上半年，你去年跟我講年底要完成，部長今年提給司法及法制委員會的報告說上半年要完成，上半年有完成嗎？現在應該是已經要下半年了吧！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們八德也儘量努力來完成。"],["黃委員國昌：儘量努力嘛！"],["周署長輝煌：有一些因素不是……"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下你們要怎麼樣努力啦！矯正署發函給八德外役監說不要再延期了，這是你們發的函嘛！"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候？7月中要竣工，做得到嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：現在應該是希望年底……"],["黃委員國昌：不要希望啦！做不做得到就給一個乾脆的答案，現在要到年底喔？"],["周署長輝煌：年底完成竣工驗收。"],["黃委員國昌：繼續拖就對了，你們矯正署自己都退縮了喔！你不是發函給八德外役監7月15號要完成？"],["周署長輝煌：並不是退縮，現在是第6次他們有提行政院工程會做和解，所謂的仲裁……"],["黃委員國昌：跟它竣不竣工有什麼關係？"],["周署長輝煌：因為有一些涉及到所謂驗收的問題，他們的建築師有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看驗收的問題，花了納稅人29億，2022年就應該要完工了，法務部現在是搞大內宣很會，媒體怎麼會出這種報導？我看了都覺得很驚訝，你要搞大內宣沒有關係，你要作秀擺拍也沒有關係，事情要做到嘛！事情沒做到，還搞大內宣、作秀擺拍，好萊塢大片，納稅人看了會淌血，29億耶！不是29萬，29億耶！29億給你們預算，搞成這個樣子喔！來，搞成什麼樣子我們接下來看，2025年6月2號審計部查核意見，法務部有沒有收到？"],["周署長輝煌：有收到了。"],["黃委員國昌：不僅法務部收到，我掌握的東西連行政院秘書長都收到了，查核意見講什麼？該監分別於112年1到3月辦理初驗，112年是2023年，早就過了應該竣工的期間，驗收不合格項目多達2,279項，不是2項、不是22項，是2,279項，最關鍵的是什麼？到今年3月底，部分驗收日已耗損一年八個月餘，還有部分缺失21項及初驗缺失9項，共計30個缺失沒有完成改善，重點是根本沒有辦法發揮智慧監獄的功能，這是審計部說的。法務部接到審計部這樣的審計報告做了什麼檢討、做了什麼究責？請法務部次長，還是收到這個文了以後看一看丟到旁邊，反正審計部來歸審計部來，言者諄諄，聽者藐藐？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，誠如委員螢幕上所顯示的，驗收的過程就是我們找出它的不合格項目，然後逐項要求廠商依照合約履行改善，所以從112年的二千多項，到114年3月底，那是第一階段的工程，已經只剩下30項，當然有缺失尚未改善，依照合約精神，我們都會督促矯正署……"],["黃委員國昌：依照合約精神督促？"],["黃次長世杰：督促八德外役監來要求廠商……"],["黃委員國昌：你依照合約精神可以做什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：就是要求它要把這些缺失改善完，才可以完成驗收。"],["黃委員國昌：造成的延遲、造成國家的損失，誰要負責？"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分因為廠商也有提工程會的調解，所以我們也在跟它……"],["黃委員國昌：這兩碼子事嘛，這是廠商的救濟。"],["黃次長世杰：對，但是我們是……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我的問題是站在法務部的立場該做什麼、可以做什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：對，因為我們跟它是合約關係，所以我們也是依照合約精神來要求。"],["黃委員國昌：依照合約可以做什麼？不要講空的啦！"],["黃次長世杰：現在階段就是還在調解，調解如果不成，未來可能會研議是否進行訴訟。"],["黃委員國昌：研議進行訴訟，對啊，你要跟它要求什麼？你的訴訟標的、訴之聲明是什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：就是如果契約不履行的話，依照合約可能有違約金或是其他賠償等等之類的。"],["黃委員國昌：次長，這個案子你有掌握嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我有初步掌握。"],["黃委員國昌：我看你很不熟，我為什麼說你很不熟？我接下來帶你看，為什麼你剛剛講的全部都是空的，在同一份審計報告裡面全部都點出來了。我們往下看，三道門人臉辨識系統的缺失改善完了沒有？這是上次我去八德外役監自己拍的照，那個時候你們跟我說要花一點時間改善，三道門很重要，防止脫逃，三道門不能同時開，三道門的缺失現在改善完成沒有？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，他們有送我們這邊，但是我們要以比較高標準的……"],["黃委員國昌：比較高標準，不用高標準啦……"],["周署長輝煌：頻率比較多而且穩定……"],["黃委員國昌：正常可以發揮功能的，可以嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：所以我們現在還沒有讓它驗收通過，因為我們要觀察……"],["黃委員國昌：換言之這個缺失還沒有改善完嘛，對不對？針對問題回答就好了。"],["周署長輝煌：它有送上來，但我們覺得要在高頻率、穩定的狀況下沒問題，我們才會驗收通過。"],["黃委員國昌：所以缺失還沒有改善完成，對不對？是不是？針對問題回答沒有這麼困難嘛。"],["周署長輝煌：現在還沒有核定通過。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有改善完成就沒有改善完成嘛！這是我去年的質詢內容，我已經一而再、再而三提醒法務部，我開始追的事情一定會一路追下去，29億，我再提醒一次，29億啊！監視器缺失改善完了嗎？這也是我去年問的。"],["周署長輝煌：監視器的部分是算弱電的部分，我們有要求，廠商有進度，但是進度不如理想。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，就繼續拖嘛。為什麼廠商敢擺爛？為什麼超過合約的期限這麼久？我繼續給你拖嘛，反正我們的法務部、我們的矯正署遇到這樣的問題，有缺失來改善、有缺失來改善，我繼續拖、繼續混，今天如果遲延一個月，我用這麼嚴厲的態度來質問法務部，可能是我不夠厚道，我再提醒一次，2022年就要竣工，現在是2025年，你們每一次跟立法院講的、提到立法院的報告是一而再、再而三跳票，為什麼這個廠商敢這麼皮啊？因為損害賠償以契約價金總額20%為上限，超過20%啦！現在早就超過20%，你能拿我怎麼樣，你根本拿我沒皮條，我繼續遲延下去還是20%。連審計部都看不下去了，審計部怎麼講，我唸給你聽，該監，講的就是八德外役監，該監明明知道契約所訂延遲履約罰則因達計罰上限，已失實質約束管制效果，卻沒有本於主管機關職責，積極採取適當作為。這是審計部的意見，這個意見看過沒有？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，你沒有劃紅線的部分，這是八德外役監的考量，它有說因為考量到辦理解約並重新發包有關工程結算及招標作業時間恐需一年以上作業時間……"],["黃委員國昌：這是part 2的問題嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：不是，這是八德外役監為什麼沒有直接解約來做。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個我了解，但是我們一個部分、一個部分來，審計部說你們沒有採取積極適當的作為，審計部講的有沒有道理？"],["黃次長世杰：它的積極作為就是要我們解約，因為所謂的20%上限指的是遲延的部分，如果最後是工程項目沒有達標、沒有完成驗收，在那個部分就不是20%上限。"],["黃委員國昌：所以審計部對你們的指責，法務部不是很滿意就對了？"],["黃次長世杰：我們是認為有不同的考量。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，我們再往下看法務部跟審計部有哪些不一樣的考量，八德外役監推動企業進駐要不要依照政府採購法辦理？要還是不要，法務部的意見是什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，當然需要依照……"],["黃委員國昌：需要依照政府採購法？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我想你調查過這個資料，八德外役監是依照國有財產署的相關規定來交由市政府辦理……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以要不要適用政府採購法？"],["黃次長世杰：這個法令的體系是不一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要不要適用政府採購法？"],["黃次長世杰：它走的那一邊是不適用政府採購法。"],["黃委員國昌：不適用政府採購法，政府採購法第九十九條的規定就是在規定BOT，除其他法律另有規定者，適用本法之規定。"],["黃次長世杰：這不只BOT。"],["黃委員國昌：對，你講得非常好，我們再往下看審計部怎麼講，該適用政府採購法沒有適用政府採購法，辦理過程違法，審計部講的話很重，它說工程會函釋本案應該適用政府採購法第九十九條規定，辦理過程顯欠合法，顯欠合法就是不合法，工程會都函釋給你們了，結果該監對於前開函釋未思據以檢討改善，卻自行認定符合政府採購法精神，一直未為適法處理，嚴重傷害政府採購之公開透明及公平性。審計部的這個意見，法務部接不接受？"],["黃次長世杰：我想未來我們會儘可能避免以這個方式來做，但是這是之前做的。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子它給你的檢討意見是說你顯然違法，告訴你違法，還不檢討改進，繼續硬拗，審計部寫得比較文言文，實質的內容就是這樣嘛！法務部接不接受？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，你看到這裡面有寫到，八德外役監的主張是說它用國有公用不動產管理收益原則來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我們應該聽八德外役監的主張，還是聽審計部加上工程會的主張？八德外役監現在是很大是不是？審計部講什麼不重要，工程會的函釋也不重要……"],["黃次長世杰：……我們會來檢討改進。"],["黃委員國昌：八德外役監愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，是這樣嗎？是嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們會來檢討審計部提供給我們的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：還是因為八德外役監合作的對象是桃園市政府，鄭文燦主政的桃園市政府，所以法務部不敢處理，怎麼處理下去？當初違法亂搞的就是八德外役監跟鄭文燦亂搞嘛！"],["黃次長世杰：我想跟這個沒有關係，主要是適用法規的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有關係的話，審計部的糾正報告、工程會的函釋已經明指我們的法務部違法，還不思檢討改進……"],["黃次長世杰：我想沒有這回事。"],["黃委員國昌：現在法務部願意檢討改進了嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我剛剛已經說明得很清楚，我們會來檢討審計部給我們的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：會來檢討，要不要追究責任？"],["黃次長世杰：那要看檢討的結果。"],["黃委員國昌：檢討需要多久？"],["黃次長世杰：請署長評估一下。"],["黃委員國昌：檢討不是講空話啦，檢討需要多久？一個月夠不夠？"],["周署長輝煌：我跟委員報告一下，剛剛委員你有提到八德外役監有沒有盡責這個部分，八德外役監已經……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我跟你講，剛剛我唸的每一個字都是審計部的報告……"],["主席：署長講沒關係。"],["黃委員國昌：審計部的報告說辦理過程顯欠合法，就是不合法嘛，接下來又再講說未思據以檢討改善，這也是審計部講的，這不是我黃國昌講的啊！審計部白紙黑字寫成這個樣子，剛剛次長也說要檢討，我現在的問題很具體，檢討要多久？怎麼追究責任？需要多久，一個月夠不夠？我等你一個月啊，夠不夠？還是沒有要檢討，所以不敢給時間？"],["周署長輝煌：因為八德該計罰的，依採購法都是計罰，已經計罰到四億多了，就是剛剛委員提20%的上限。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你繼續再堅持嘛，人家審計部說你違法，那你矯正署說審計部講審計部的，現在這就是問題了，現在是什麼？矯正署很大，審計部說你違法，你還不承認？還不處理？剛剛次長說要檢討嘛，檢討需要多久？我只剩最後這個問題。"],["黃次長世杰：對啦，我們本來就會依照審計部的查核意見做出相應的檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：是，需要多久？"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分，因為八德外役監還有矯正署需要作業期程。"],["黃委員國昌：是，需要多久？"],["黃次長世杰：我們原則上希望1、2個月內來提出，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：1個月，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：2個月可以嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：2個月太久了，就1個月，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：因為我剛剛是請矯正署來提啦！"],["黃委員國昌：召委，多久讓你裁，我尊重你。"],["主席：一個半月啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，一個半月，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，可以啦，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a92371aeb70c07574b9483b76f331b6005c7fa28b96d4b42cd3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:29:06 - 09:40:07","影片長度":"00:11:01","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:29:06+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T09:40:07+08:00","duration":661,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.750968750000002,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.98659375,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.543468750000002,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.560343750000001,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.86409375,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.64846875,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.28721875,"end":62.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.924093750000004,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.26159375,"end":63.430343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.750968750000006,"end":66.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.767843750000004,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.42534375000001,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.45909375000001,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.50971875,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.37846875000001,"end":72.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.91846875,"end":73.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.81284375,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.57096875,"end":113.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.68409375,"end":127.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.72096875000001,"end":121.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.68284375,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.47096875000001,"end":157.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.02784375000002,"end":129.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.12159375000002,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.58971875,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.32784375,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.88034375,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.74909375000001,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":208.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.40346875,"end":210.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.68159375000002,"end":212.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.97659375,"end":214.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.69784375,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.75659375,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.08971875,"end":225.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.81534375,"end":219.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.21534375000002,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.68346875,"end":227.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.86034375000003,"end":241.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.35659375,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.24221875,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.11971875,"end":247.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.01784375000003,"end":293.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.33096875,"end":294.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.25909375000003,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.23784375,"end":302.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.72221875,"end":337.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.37909375000004,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.5590937500000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我們現在一片祥和 共同人民的健康也能夠順利進行我手邊掌握的資訊是目前代理的官員有社保市代理市長陳真惠新建市代理市長鄭淑欣 社家屬代理市長周道軍請問資料正確嗎 就目前還有市長是代理我想請問部長 你這些人士聘用有摯愛嗎"},{"start":68.522,"end":83.041,"text":"因為他們都代理半年以上了那我其實沒有要否定這個代理主管的他們的努力但是持續代理沒有辦法轉正或是你沒辦法找到適當的接任人選我覺得在業務執行上這個還是會有一些彆扭"},{"start":83.422,"end":88.686,"text":"同仁們也會覺得說有點群龍無首會有點不安而且這些都是專業領域您身為這個台灣社政衛政的這個大家長很多專業團體民間團體甚至他們想要做一些陳情甚至一些討論參與政策的參與那也會擔心沒有一個明確的一個官員還能夠帶領他們來做這些溝通那如果有市長跟署長的一起參與我覺得我相信對衛福部在業務上執行上也會比較有魄力所以請問部長你多久才能夠聘滿這些職務呢"},{"start":113.742,"end":128.864,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心那第一個我首先保證我們的業務一定是我們精誠督導讓那個相關的司徒剛剛提到的司徒運作無礙而且我們很感謝代理人都非常優秀"},{"start":130.026,"end":141.213,"text":"代理的隊伍 那我想說前署長楊淑仁他也特別提到其實用人只要不分顏色嘛 只要就是說業界啦 民間啦 專家都學者都有很多這樣的人才 我也是希望說這些人能夠趕快能夠幫助這個衛福部能夠推動更多的這個政策跟福國利民的一些法案嘛 我們是樂觀其成啦部長這個部分請加油齁 這個代理時間有點久了不要像薛衛原部長齁 一選選了兩年多喔"},{"start":156.843,"end":162.705,"text":"唯材適用好 部長請接著 謝謝你部長 那這個身心障礙者的權利公約我以下簡稱CRPD強調自立生活是障礙者的基本權利那很多團體一直很關心剛剛這個趙偉有提到個人助理服務究竟能否入法所以我想請問部長威福部這次修法有沒有這個增訂條文區分"},{"start":178.571,"end":183.894,"text":"照顧服務跟個人助理服務並且明文保障障礙者能夠選擇支持者跟他服務方式的自主權因為根據CRPD的第五條的一般性的意見他個人助理服務的核心就是由障礙者主導自主選擇的支持可是現在實務有一個問題就是說因為現在有長照服務那障礙者沒有辦法使用個住服務導致障礙者的生活"},{"start":205.026,"end":225.085,"text":"被迫要去配合這個體制上的這個限制部長您知道我提的這個情形嗎我瞭解齁但是目前來講並沒有使用長照服務就不能使用各住等一下我來舉例有一些限制我規定齁那當然這樣的結合是不是在溝通上我們都可以求改或者是在制度上需要再改善所以你目前的設計並沒有把它區分開來還沒有區分開來"},{"start":228.007,"end":234.272,"text":"那很感謝委員對CRPD的瞭解跟指導那我想CRPD5號一般性意見是針對CRPD第49條的一個補充說明那這個就強調我想不可外延我想您的屬下他們應該是比較熟悉"},{"start":244.119,"end":248.222,"text":"雖然強調身心障礙者自立我想跟您分享就是台灣身心障礙者自主聯盟自立生活的聯盟在去年有針對個人助理服務進行問卷調查結果顯示有分之一的受訪者他反映這些資料也請你參考服務時數是不足的個人助理人力不足"},{"start":262.393,"end":269.037,"text":"還有又有一些受訪者指出說會限制我的生活決定或自負額過高啦服務內容不符需求評估結果跟實際需求不符等等那目前有一些縣市他不提供例如例如洗澡啦料理啦這個煮東西的如廁外出啊陪伴等基本項目"},{"start":280.925,"end":291.461,"text":"但是這些正是障礙者每天生活的核心需求啊那卻常常因為已經有長照的這個服務項目不列入這個補助項目等理由被排除掉部長你覺得這樣合適嗎合理嗎嗯"},{"start":295.302,"end":310.74,"text":"他被排除掉了這個用 其實這用長照跟個人助理的用意絕對是把他相互相承 相得益彰部長 正是 部長就是長照體系或個人助理體系其實他的出發點都是協助跟支持但是這個制度互相抵觸 互相排除時那"},{"start":312.301,"end":335.577,"text":"這個障礙者他無法獲得完整的服務反而在兩個系統當中被推來推去有點像皮球被這個踢來踢去所以部長你覺得這樣的制度有落實這個剛剛我提到的CRPD第五號一般性意見所強調的支持障礙者自立生活跟自主選擇這樣子的一個做法嗎所以市域部長你願意考慮一下想辦法讓這個個人助理服務從長照的這個邏輯"},{"start":337.478,"end":345.696,"text":"出來把它釋放出來建立一套獨立的以障礙者的需求為主的一個支持制度就這個方向可以嗎"},{"start":349.863,"end":367.074,"text":"因為他們覺得有排除 互相抵觸但是還有需要改進的地方 一定努力來改進今天提出的意見就請這個會不會那至於說個人助理的服務 其實已經都存在了會依需要 個人需要來給他服務那是不是說要進一步來進"},{"start":369.515,"end":396.429,"text":"更具體來呈現此其實也啊就是要討論那可能就是要來好好的研議它所產生的需要性我不然委員報告大概一兩年前我也是同樣我當召委的時候就是也是邀請到所有的我們所有老師各種老師一起來在這邊討論的相當的一個因為在這個部分是有更多的討論需要性所以才會延到現在又再繼續來討論我相信我們一定能夠討論是一個"},{"start":397.85,"end":414.403,"text":"那個身心障礙者自立生活聯盟他們提出三個訴求啦第一個就是個人助理不應該限制障礙者的生活跟決定因為個人助理服務的精神嘛他就是透過障礙者的這個只是安排工作內容達到這個障礙者自主的選擇決定生活的目的那也不應該有個長照項目就切割了"},{"start":416.345,"end":435.629,"text":"他的這個服務如果讓他中斷 造成他的生活被就是有一些限制那第二個他們的訴求個人助理服務是達成障礙者自立生活的一環所以個人助理的限制讓障礙者可以彈性的使用這個助理服務可是目前好像有一個月就要排定所有的服務時間跟項目喔而且沒有辦法更動行程的 沒有彈性喔那而且這是他們的訴求降低障礙者服務各住的這個住戶額也是他們的訴求"},{"start":443.03,"end":470.321,"text":"雖然有補助交通費可是這樣100塊錢他們常常有時候是會超過的他們第三個訴求就是個人助理服務當然就是說要督導教育制度完整讓他們能夠接受一個這個值錢跟回訊制度那這樣可以建立他們這個生活品質這個或是說對於自立生活概念這個概念是很重要的那食物現場現在知道他們提出來的就是這些身障者食物現場有一些服務人員他會特定挑案"},{"start":471.181,"end":497.841,"text":"條案做 甚至因為不想做 甚至表示說他們不提供這個服務項目或是有人常常請假 造成一個調度上的困難所以是不是當然我也了解很多是雙向的雙向就是障礙者的需求跟服務者所以是不是應該對障礙者也要建立使用個人助理服務的權利跟義務認知促進了解大家怎麼來對等的合作這個部分也希望在立法的時候你們可以有所顧慮到是"},{"start":500.002,"end":510.626,"text":"我今天花很多時間談了個人助理的改革不是因為他做得不好其實你看看這個數字他做得很不錯因為從這個表格看出來近三年成績這個在2022年將近20萬小時那2023年已經達到22.5萬小時我目前手邊只有2024年上半年就已經有13.8萬小時"},{"start":519.97,"end":533.04,"text":"一直在持續增加所以我非常肯定社家屬應該投注了相當的心力包含地方的推動制度的盤整還有預算支持都很值得肯定但是我也希望您能夠重視一下障礙者的時機回歸他們覺得服務時數是還是不夠的排班沒有彈性剛剛我提到排班沒有彈性那似乎有點造成負擔服務人力不足等"},{"start":542.927,"end":568.38,"text":"所以制度這次是有擴張有擴大但是離真正的人本還有距離所以我想最後我想要跟部長談這個我要引用楊教大周渭新聞的一段很重要的話他說我們現在的政府雖然通過一個法但我們要執行聯合國的剛剛提到的身心障礙者的權利公約但我們政府對於身心障礙者的服務的介入都停留在一個觀念叫做慈善的觀點"},{"start":569.56,"end":589.697,"text":"慈善的觀點但是現在整個聯合國的公約或是國際上在做這件事的時候已經都建立在人權模式的觀點但我們政府到目前為止比較偏向用慈善的觀點政府也是所以我希望是不是說本次修法可以把個人助理服務入法那區別長照導向的一個照顧導向"},{"start":590.638,"end":613.017,"text":"的長照服務去做彈性調整那不是權力而是福利本地我講的就是說你還欠我一個代孕專法代孕專法我也要告訴你它不是福利不是施捨它是一個我們的權利我們要做這件事情所以基本上我們不是要政府的同意跟允許我們要政府的好好管理部長我們曾經一起參與民主運動的一個年代"},{"start":615.939,"end":638.379,"text":"我們當時就講政府是公僕 人民才是頭家所以民主國家沒有德政這件事就是沒有福利 只有他們的權利因為政府是受人民的委託 拿到選票受到委託那是拿人民的納稅錢去服務人民所以我覺得基本上我們要在這個觀念上做改變 這是權利部長 你再看我一個代孕專訪 請你繼續努力好嗎"},{"start":640.26,"end":653.343,"text":"那我們桃園也一起努力我想我們對於身心障礙者不只是在慈善的觀念社會本來就是互相照顧我們更是建立在人權模式人民是頭家 政府是公僕我們一起努力過嘛就是這樣的觀念謝謝主席好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時29分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早安。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，您上任一年多了，我相信您對自己所管轄的機構跟業務都有相當地掌握，平常跟轄下的官員應該有很多的開會。我想請問部長，目前您手下官員的職位代理情形您是否有掌握呢？現在的主秘劉玉娟原來兼任社保司司長，但是去年因為涉嫌霸凌，免兼之後他現在應該沒有再對同仁飆罵了吧？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有！我們現在一片祥和，共同為人民的健康努力。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，很好！讓你的業務也能夠順利進行。依據我手邊掌握的資訊，目前代理的官員有社保司代理司長陳真慧，心健司代理司長鄭淑心、社家署代理署長周道君，請問資料正確嗎？就目前還有代理司長的部分？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：我想請問部長，你這些人事聘用有窒礙嗎？因為他們都代理半年以上了，我其實沒有要否定代理主管他們的努力，但是持續代理沒有辦法轉正，或是你沒辦法找到適當的接任人選，我覺得在業務執行上還是會有一些彆扭，同仁們也會覺得有點群龍無首，會有點不安，而且這些都是專業領域，您身為臺灣社政、衛政的大家長，很多專業團體、民間團體，甚至他們想要做一些陳情，甚至一些討論、參與政策的參與，也會擔心沒有一個明確的官員能夠帶領他們來做這些溝通，如果有司長跟署長一起參與，我相信衛福部在業務執行上，也會比較有魄力。所以請問部長，你多久才能夠聘滿這些職務呢？"],["邱部長泰源：非常謝謝委員的關心，第一個，我首先保證我們的業務一定是層層督導，讓相關的及剛剛提到司、署運作無礙，而且我們很感謝代理的人，都非常優秀。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，我想前署長楊志良也特別提到用人要不分顏色，業界、民間專家、學者都有很多這樣的人才，我也是希望這些人能夠趕快幫助衛福部，能夠推動更多的政策跟福國利民的一些法案，我們是樂觀其成，部長，這個部分請加油，這個代理時間有點久了，像薛瑞元部長，衛福部一懸，懸了兩年多。"],["邱部長泰源：唯才適用，請放心。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長請記得，謝謝你。部長，這個身心障礙者權利公約，我以下簡稱CRPD，強調自立生活是障礙者的基本權利，很多團體一直很關心，剛剛召委也有提到個人助理服務究竟能否入法，所以我想請問部長，衛福部這次修法有沒有增訂條文，區分照顧服務跟個人助理服務，並且明文保障障礙者有選擇支持者跟服務方式的自主權？因為根據CRPD第五條的一般性意見，它個人助理服務的核心就是由障礙者主導，自主選擇支持者，可是現在實務有一個問題，因為現在有長照服務，障礙者沒有辦法使用個助服務，導致障礙者的生活被迫要去配合體制上的限制，部長知道我提的這個情形嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我了解，但是目前來講，並沒有使用長照服務就不能使用個助服務的規定……"],["陳委員昭姿：等一下，我來舉例一些……"],["邱部長泰源：當然這樣的結合是不是在溝通上……我們都可以改，或者是制度上需要再改善，我們會更改善……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你目前的設計並沒有把它區分開來？還沒有區分開來？"],["邱部長泰源：感謝委員對CRPD的了解跟指導，我想CRPD第5號一般性意見是針對CRPD第十九條的一個補充說明，這個就強調……"],["陳委員昭姿：我想您的屬下他們應該是非常熟悉……"],["邱部長泰源：而我個人是很強調身心障礙者自立……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我想跟您分享，台灣身心障礙者自立生活聯盟在去年有針對個人助理服務進行問卷調查，這些資料也請你參考，結果顯示有五分之一的受訪者反映服務時數是不足的，個人助理的人力不足，也有一些受訪者指出會限制他的生活決定，或自負額過高、服務內容不符需求、評估結果跟實際需求不符等等，目前有一些縣市不提供例如洗澡、料理、煮東西、如廁、外出、陪伴等基本項目，但是這些正是障礙者每天生活的核心需求，因為已經有長照的服務項目，所以不列入補助項目等理由被排除掉，部長覺得這樣合適嗎？它被排除掉了。"],["邱部長泰源：其實長照跟個人助理的用意，絕對是要相輔相成，相得益彰……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，正是，長照體系或個人助理體系的出發點都是協助跟支持，但是這個制度互相牴觸、互相排除時，障礙者無法獲得完整的服務，反而在兩個系統當中被推來推去，有點像皮球，被踢來踢去。","所以部長覺得這樣的制度有落實剛剛我提到的CRPD第5號一般性意見所強調的支持障礙者自立生活跟自主選擇，這樣子的一個作法嗎？所以部長是不是願意考慮一下，想辦法讓個人助理服務從長照的邏輯，把它釋放出來，建立一套獨立的、以障礙者需求為主的一個支持制度？這個方向可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為他們覺得有排除，互相牴觸。"],["邱部長泰源：我們很努力，但是還有需要改進的地方一定會努力來改進、研議……"],["陳委員昭姿：今天提出的意見就請衛福部……"],["邱部長泰源：至於個人助理的服務，其實已經都存在了，會依個人需要來給他服務，對於是不是要進一步、更具體來呈現……"],["陳委員昭姿：此其時也，就是要討論嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：就是要來好好的研議它所產生的需要性，跟委員報告，大概一、兩年前，我也是一樣，我當召委的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：你也是關心這個議題嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：也是邀請到所有的手語老師、各種老師一起來這邊討論，相當的一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長……"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個部分有更多的討論需要性，所以才會現在又再繼續來討論，我相信我們一定能夠討論出一個更好的發展。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，謝謝。台灣身心障礙者自立生活聯盟他們有提出三個訴求，第一個，就是個人助理不應該限制障礙者的生活跟決定，因為個人助理服務的精神就是透過障礙者的指示，安排工作內容，達到障礙者自主選擇，決定生活的目的，也不應該因為有長照項目，就切割他的服務或讓他中斷，造成他的生活有一些限制。","第二個訴求，個人助理服務是達成障礙者自立生活的一環，讓障礙者可以彈性的使用這個助理服務，可是目前好像有一個月就要排定所有的服務時間跟項目的規定，而且沒有辦法更動行程，沒有彈性。而且，降低障礙者個助服務的自負額也是他們的訴求，雖然有補助交通費，可是才100塊錢，他們常常有時會超過。","他們第三個訴求是個人助理服務要有督導、教育制度完整，讓他們能夠接受職前跟回訓制度，這樣可以建立他們的生活品質或是對於自立生活概念，這個概念是很重要的，在實務上，這些身障者他們有提出來，就是實務現場有一些服務人員會特定挑案做，甚至因為不想做，而表示他們不提供這個服務項目，或是常常請假，造成調度上的困難，當然我也了解很多是雙向的，就是障礙者的需求跟服務者，所以是不是對障礙者也要建立使用個人助理服務的權利跟義務認知，促進大家了解要怎麼來對等合作，這個部分也希望在立法的時候，你們可以有所顧慮到。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我今天花很多時間談個人助理的改革，不是因為他做得不好，你看看這個數字，其實他做得很不錯，因為從這個表格可以看出來，近三年成績，在2022年將近20萬小時，2023年已經達到22.5萬小時，我們目前手邊只有2024年上半年的資料，就已經有13.8萬小時，一直在持續增加，所以我非常肯定社家署應該投注了相當的心力，包含地方的推動、制度的盤整還有預算支持，都很值得肯定。","但是我也希望您能夠重視一下障礙者的實際回饋，他們覺得服務時數還是不夠的，排班沒有彈性，自負額有點造成負擔、服務人力不足等，所以制度這次是有擴張、有擴大，但是離真正的人本還有距離。","所以最後我想要跟部長談，我要引用陽明交大周月清教授一段很重要的話，他說我們現在的政府雖然通過一個法，但我們要執行剛剛提到的聯合國身心障礙者權利公約，但我們政府對於身心障礙者服務的介入都停留在一個觀念，叫做慈善的觀點，但是現在整個聯合國的公約或是國際上在做這件事的時候，都已經建立在人權模式的觀點，但我們政府到目前為止，比較偏向用慈善的觀點，所以我希望本次修法是不是可以把個人助理服務入法？區別長照導向，跟照顧導向的長照服務去做彈性調整，那不是權利，而是福利。","部長，我要說的是，你還欠我一個代孕專法，我也要告訴你，它不是福利，也不是施捨，它是我們的一個權利，我們要做這件事情，所以基本上，我們不是要政府的同意跟允許，我們要政府來好好管理。部長，我們曾經一起參與民主運動的年代，我們當時就講，政府是公僕，人民才是頭家，所以民主國家沒有德政這件事，就是沒有福利，只有他們的權利，因為政府是受人民的委託，拿到選票，受到委託，那是拿人民的納稅錢去服務人民，所以我覺得基本上我們要在這個觀念上做改變，這是權利，部長，你還欠我一個代孕專法，請你繼續努力，好嗎？我們朝野也一起努力。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝，我想我們對身心障礙者不只是在慈善的觀點，社會本來就是互相照顧，所以我們是建立在人權模式……"],["陳委員昭姿：人民是頭家，政府是公僕？"],["邱部長泰源：沒錯，委員的指導我們一定……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們一起努力過，就是這樣的觀念。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請林月琴委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91aec5531dba9a04fd4b85017248ed72d8d5c7fa28b96d4b42c02348c06207a9cc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:17:16 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市長跟委員報告一下委員剛剛講的確實是一個很重要的課題所以如果說像台南市有一些這個比較偏遠地區原來固定路線一天只開一班兩班"},{"start":403.775,"end":427.332,"text":"那中間沒有辦事的話 那這個部分我們都跟台南市政府來合作將原來的固定路線轉成那個幸福巴士的這個路線可以用中8或9人座或者是計程車來加密這個頻率那目前這個台南市也在像很多比較偏向的地方山上也推了很多小房的這個路線這個部分我們會跟台南市政府繼續來做這個合作"},{"start":428.433,"end":453.439,"text":"好 那另外一個部分就是說在我們智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫裡面我們現在台南有推出三個一個是我們東區域農路運輸走廊暨多叉路口的交通改善計畫另外一個部分是AI道安分析暨路口改善專家資源系統建置計畫另外一個部分是"},{"start":454.98,"end":469.631,"text":"114年台南市視障與弱勢行車行人與對車警告的系統計畫那這個部分我們東區運農路這個部分114年是1573萬然後AI道安分析入口的專家資源系統是503萬114年台南市視障與弱勢行人這個警告系統的計畫是252萬"},{"start":484.002,"end":499.161,"text":"好 這個目前我們都提出了那這個市政府也依6月12號審查意見在修正當中那這個部分要麻煩我們交通部要優先來配合"},{"start":500.042,"end":514.689,"text":"協助處理因為這個都是屬於我們入口危險的部分而且我們都希望說可以透過整個AI的分析來改善我們所有相關的一個智慧化因為"},{"start":515.829,"end":541.244,"text":"AI的狀況還有另外一點就是整個連線的部分怎麼所有做總檢討我覺得這個都要利用我們的整個計畫去協助雖然我們現在一直不斷的在每個月都有到案彙報可是到案彙報之後彙整起來包括我們發現現在其實很多點都沒有連線其實沒有連線是很危險的"},{"start":542.805,"end":569.652,"text":"所以在整個所謂高齡化或這個身心障礙者的智慧運具或是整個AI先進技術還有智慧化如何滿足所有通勤者的需求除了我們前面三項的計畫拜託我們交通部要趕快核准之外我們希望我們能夠對於我們市府很多高齡化還有身心障礙者的運具"},{"start":571.445,"end":589.992,"text":"好剛剛我談的那個部分要怎麼協助要整個串聯串聯真的很重要啦其實市長其實交通運輸沒有串聯什麼都白搭啦他的使用度就不高啦如果你要讓他再轉車"},{"start":592.182,"end":621.502,"text":"你要教高齡化人口怎麼轉車長者怎麼轉車身心障礙者怎麼轉車那是不可能的嘛他就是要一次到位嘛所以當沒有串聯的話沒有利用我們智慧運具基本上那是沒有辦法的所以我們怎麼協助市政府去做更多的這些規劃利用我們AI的技術智慧化的技術去滿足他們的需求還有通勤者的需求"},{"start":623.283,"end":648.483,"text":"點線面的串聯其實是比什麼更重要是謝謝委員您提的蠻重要的縣市政府或地方政府要非常清楚他們的不同地區高齡者的需求是什麼那您剛剛提到的一個是進入點就是接觸資訊的這個來源第二個是中間通行的路徑第三個是當地的場站能不能符合他的需求再來當然是上車以後的路線這個那三個計畫我們已經審查"},{"start":651.665,"end":678.146,"text":"完了再修正重所以应该会全力来支持谢谢委员我们大概再跟县政府一起合作再麻烦市长再跟我们市政府交通局这个部分因为我觉得我们不能是一个大计划在上面其实我们应该要深入没错深入的部分是市政府要做县市政府要做可是我们交通部怎么协助他们整个做串联"},{"start":679.186,"end":707.992,"text":"那個關鍵很重要串聯你那個審核的機制你一定要把這個前提擺在上面讓他們可以串聯點線面串聯讓他們在整個交通的一個轉運是沒有問題的那麼他的承搭率才會高運量才會高公共運輸服務裡面有個叫無縫化的過程所以這一塊我們也會透過無障礙小組我們每個機關都有一個無障礙小組"},{"start":708.812,"end":729.198,"text":"那我们跟王明德局长也常在互动所以这一块应该没有问题再麻烦一下我觉得这个对于我们所听到的长者的需求或是我们身心障碍者的需求他的原则最重要的是无缝接轨无缝接轨这个部分才是重要的谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時17分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請交通部次長？"],["主席：林次長。"],["林次長國顯：陳委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：次長早。我們交通部有推出很多智慧運輸系統整個發展的串聯，但是我們有沒有盤點過，到底我們在各地的長者跟身心障礙者的需求，跟我們現在所規劃的，包括幸福巴士、幸福小黃或是智慧運輸系統或是TPASS，你有沒有把所有整個對於我們年長者的專案計畫統整過？因為依照現在所有的資料顯示，我們的長者是越來越多，需要的人也越來越多，雖然現在有長照，可是我們更希望我們的長者是能夠利用機會走出來的。我覺得長照要做在前面，是讓他們可以走出來去看很多的地方，走遍很多的地方，包括他的就醫，包括所有交通的網絡是沒有問題的。所以如果網絡沒有問題，他當然就不用自己開車了，如果網絡OK的話，我相信我們就可以排除所謂在後端我們擔心長者開車會不安全的問題，所以這個部分其實都是一關、一關連結在一起的。","次長，我們交通部有沒有盤整過？"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。您提的非常重要，要盤整高齡者的運輸需求大概就像您提的，要把他的區塊稍微區隔出來，一類是屬於身心健康，其實現在高齡者有很多活動能力跟身體健康程度不輸於……"],["陳委員亭妃：非常棒的。"],["林次長國顯：非常好，所以像這一類的，我們鼓勵他出遊，目前很明顯的比如高速鐵路、臺鐵、國道客運、一般公路客運，甚至公車，我們都有半價的高齡者使用優惠，所以這個部分是沒有問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：其實不是半價的問題，基本上65歲以上的搭乘本來就有優惠了。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在是說這個網絡，今天從偏鄉要出來，我看到你們對於一些偏鄉推動幸福巴士、幸福小黃，但請問你們對於偏鄉的著重點在哪裡？請問如果是臺南市，臺南市是「都」、是直轄市，可是它在山區的部分算不算偏鄉？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，您提的是重點，偏鄉就是地方政府認為那個地方屬於比較偏遠，譬如臺南地區像山上、楠西、玉井以上，有些主要路線沒有服務到的地方，我們都可以來認定，但目前的作法是如果那個地方有公共運輸固定的路線，基本上是不屬於偏鄉地段，如果完全都沒有公共運輸路線可以服務，甚至招商的過程沒有人願意，那我們就納入這個計畫來處理，所以您提的很重要的一點，我們有幸福巴士是屬於小巴、中巴之類的服務，比較彈性，如果他無法……"],["陳委員亭妃：還有幸福小黃啊！"],["林次長國顯：對，還有幸福小黃，您提的沒有錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為幸福小黃才是關鍵啊，對不對？"],["林次長國顯：對，幸福小黃就是用計程車來擔任公共運輸路線的服務。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["林次長國顯：它的付出票價跟公共運輸一樣。"],["陳委員亭妃：其實我們一直在談的是，偏鄉如果有公車路線可以經過，可是公車路線經過的班次沒那麼多，那這個部分要怎麼認定？因為公車還是會有消費的問題跟狀況，它不可能開一條路線完全是賠錢的。雖然我們現在要補貼，可是這個還是補貼不足，所以它還是會有運量的問題，如果運量不足，它還是不會開那一條線。"],["林次長國顯：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：就算開了，可能就是一班，或許是在上下學的時候開了一班，那之後呢？"],["林次長國顯：委員您提的是重點，固定路線的公共運輸因為是固定班次，所以會根據需求來處理，如果它的需求比較偏重就學或一般的上班，可能它的時間跟高齡者的使用時間不一樣。"],["陳委員亭妃：完全不同啊！"],["林次長國顯：我們也鼓勵縣市政府把這一類的提報幸福小黃或是幸福巴士的補充路線，所以這並不違背它提報的原則。"],["陳委員亭妃：可以就對了？"],["林次長國顯：可以，只是到時候在審查的時候……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為你剛剛提到他第一個優先要件就是要公車路線沒有抵達的地方。"],["林次長國顯：對，那個是第一步的screen。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，但公車路線可能限定的是上學、下課的時間，所以它有可能在這個部分就卡住了，剛剛次長說如果在時間上沒有辦法符合長者或身心障礙者的需求，也可以導入幸福巴士或幸福小黃。"],["林次長國顯：對，我們就導入，所以你看到我剛剛的報告裡面有把固定路線可以調整成彈性路線，這個都由縣政府或鄉鎮公所提出來，我們會來全力處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以是有這樣的彈性，而不是硬梆梆的？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們很擔心啊！直轄市現在實在是有點妾身未明，好像直轄市的資源很多，其實不是，明明山區就是偏鄉，可是在很多的條件當中又會被排除掉，其實這是很不公平的。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我請司長補充一下好不好？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，委員剛剛講的確實是一個很重要的課題，像臺南市有一些比較偏遠的地區，原來固定路線一天只開一班、兩班，中間沒有班次的話，這個部分我們都跟臺南市政府合作，將原來的固定路線轉成幸福巴士的路線，可以用中巴、九人座或是計程車來加密頻率，目前臺南市在很多比較偏鄉的地方，像山上也推了很多小黃的路線，這部分我們會跟臺南市政府繼續合作。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，另外一個部分就是在智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫裡面，現在臺南有推出三個計畫，一個是東區裕農路運輸走廊暨多叉路口交通改善計畫，另外一個是AI道安分析暨路口改善專家支援系統建置計畫，還有一個是114年臺南市視障與弱勢行人對車告警系統計畫，其中東區裕農路的部分在114年是1,573萬，AI道安分析暨路口改善專家支援系統為503萬，114年臺南市視障與弱勢行人對車告警系統計畫則是252萬，目前這些都提出了，市政府也依6月12號的審查意見在修正當中，這部分麻煩交通部要優先配合協助處理，因為這些都是屬於路口危險的地方，而且我們都希望可以透過AI的分析來改善所有相關的智慧化。","還有另外一點就是整個連線的部分該如何做總檢討，我覺得這都要利用整個計畫去協助，雖然現在每個月都有道安會報，可是道安會報彙整起來之後，我們發現很多點現在都沒有連線，其實沒有連線是很危險的。針對高齡化或身心障礙者的智慧運具以及AI先進技術的智慧化，究竟該如何滿足所有通勤者的需求，除了前面所述三項計畫拜託交通部要趕快核准之外，我們也希望對於很多高齡者及身心障礙者的運具，剛剛我談的那個部分要怎麼協助，我認為要整個串聯，串聯真的很重要，如果交通運輸沒有串聯，什麼都白搭了，它的使用度就不高，如果你要讓他再轉車，你要叫高齡化人口怎麼轉車？長者怎麼轉車？身心障礙者怎麼轉車？那是不可能的嘛！它就是要一次到位，沒有串聯、沒有利用智慧運具，基本上那是沒有辦法的，所以怎麼協助市政府去做更多的相關規劃，利用AI的技術、智慧化的技術去滿足他們的需求以及通勤者的需求，點線面的串聯其實比什麼都重要。"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員，您提的意見滿重要的，縣市政府或地方政府要非常清楚不同地區的高齡者需求是什麼，您剛剛提到的第一個是進入點，也就是接觸資訊的來源；第二個是中間通行的路徑；第三個是當地的場站能不能符合他的需求，再來當然是上車以後的路線。那三個計畫我們已經審查完了，目前在修正中，所以應該會全力來支持，謝謝委員，我們會再跟縣政府一起合作。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，麻煩次長再跟市政府交通局協調這個部分，我覺得不能是一個大計畫在上面，其實應該要深入才對，當然深入的部分是縣市政府要做沒錯，可是交通部怎麼協助他們整個做串聯，那個關鍵很重要，在你們的審核機制當中，一定要把串聯這個前提擺在上面，讓他們可以點線面串聯，讓他們在整個交通的轉運是沒有問題的，那麼它的乘搭率才會高、運量才會高。"],["林次長國顯：是，公共運輸服務裡面有個叫無縫化的過程，這一塊我們也會透過無障礙小組來處理，每個機關都有無障礙小組，我們跟王銘德局長也常在互動，所以這一塊應該沒有問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：再麻煩一下，對於我們所聽到的長者的需求或是身心障礙者的需求，最重要的原則就是無縫接軌。"],["林次長國顯：是，這一塊是重點。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分才是最重要的，謝謝次長。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在先確定議事錄，請問各位同仁，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們請次長跟這個署長 謝謝健保 健保委員長 委員長"},{"start":29.588,"end":44.129,"text":"我先請教這個我們健保署這個受刑人的健保費啊如果是依附在家屬下就是家屬繳了嘛那如果什麼都沒有了就欠錢"},{"start":46.695,"end":61.131,"text":"我們這個如果真的是繳不出來的我們有一些這個協處機制那麼包含這個愛心專款啦不然如果它仍然有能力繳的那麼我們有六類看看它本來它怎麼會有能力繳 要關在裡面"},{"start":63.916,"end":83.513,"text":"他自己如果有收入的時候,矯正機關有一個補助的機制可以嗎?對啊,可是那個錢應該都不多啊,我的意思是說如果他也沒什麼能力繳嘛那家人也不讓他依附在下面嘛,他可能出獄的時候就先欠你錢"},{"start":85.223,"end":110.724,"text":"因為現在在收容的時候就會改類變成第四類第二目第四類第二目的話那矯正機關會協助我們有編預算來處理這一塊那法務部會再跟當事人吹角嗎沒有 這個已經改列了改列了所以在這個署長你講那個健保的有一些跟錢有關的會是怎樣"},{"start":112.418,"end":139.869,"text":"喔 那是服務費 就是說他的健保費沒有問題繳了 那個保費啦但是在接受服務的時候 要給我部分負擔一般的民眾都有部分負擔 阿姨主要是部分負擔的部分繳不出來阿這要修喔 那就沒錢了 你再修阿這依法就是要用啦 阿所以我們是希望說喔 能夠...他整天一直跟醫生說 阿姨不要給我開到那個部分負擔"},{"start":142.42,"end":145.904,"text":"那這個費用就變成欠健保囉?這個法務部就不處理了嗎?我是不是請那個署長,財政署署長來跟我們說明報告一下"},{"start":165.662,"end":187.936,"text":"報告委員我們法務部有編列大概14億多就是健保費用那至於是說部分負擔就像民眾一樣可能掛號費是150然後部分負擔是50塊就是交個200塊那他如果是說掛號費或是部分負擔他繳不出來"},{"start":188.897,"end":199.157,"text":"其實這個是小額的他如果是弱勢團體 其實我們有相關的相關的弱勢團體的補助 包括一般民眾"},{"start":202.437,"end":222.855,"text":"經濟困難的我們會有補助公益金也好或是醫院也有一些社會福利金但是我們還可以協助他向健保申請分期繳納或是申請貸款如果他欠的比較多的話"},{"start":223.996,"end":239.987,"text":"提這個目的啊 是有些這個受刑人嘛 他就要改過自新啊嘛啊 過去一年他就要被抓了嘛 被抓也舉目無親嘛 妻離子散啦嘛他也沒有收入都沒有啊 結果他走出那個監獄的時候 他就欠人家錢啊他現在欠的是政府啊 我的意思是這樣 有可能嘛齁"},{"start":246.527,"end":268.695,"text":"他出獄之後我們就有這個協處方案在我們各分區他都有一些這個經濟弱勢者困難的這個協助分期付款或補助都有好那這個兩位署長請回好謝謝市長請問一下這個受刑人在監獄裡頭可以接受大學教育嗎"},{"start":269.68,"end":280.07,"text":"有 我們今天報告有提到好 那接受大學教育就是空中大學的嘛那科系自己選對不對那請問這些人怎麼交報告啊"},{"start":282.284,"end":302.535,"text":"這個細節的部分我們是不是還是請署長這邊來跟我們說一下 不好意思就是說他一來在 可能也不可以用網路嘛他如果要教報告 他要怎麼用是 報告委員 像這種參加空大的他本身可能一般來講 那個學習的期間會延長"},{"start":304.176,"end":325.242,"text":"所以他們也是按照空大相關要提的報告 他們還是會來提只是他可能寫的學分也好 或是他能夠有的時間我知道 可是因為他寫報告他不能上網啊他也可以用其他的方式啦 當然是不能上網沒有其他方式 監獄裡面三位都沒有啊 他們要搞報告"},{"start":327.196,"end":351.222,"text":"我們相關的他寫的那個專業歌目比如說相關的參考資料他也是可以取得到的啊不一定是要用網路網路所以他們就是相關的資料取得之後他可以提交書面這是沒有問題的我知道啦那這個來來次長這署長這樣講你看現在大學生啊寫報告沒上網是要怎麼寫"},{"start":357.615,"end":363.259,"text":"就直接只看老師給的教科書跟講義這樣就能夠寫期末報告這很難吧"},{"start":368.688,"end":389.555,"text":"因為上網涉及到很多監獄管理的問題所以可能也未必適合說因為還有在就學就全面來開放所以這個部分可能我們再研議看看就是說這個接受大學教育因為他不是只有背書或者是只有翻課本"},{"start":390.275,"end":415.207,"text":"那如果他這個老師空大老師上課的方式希望學生交報告那顯然給他的這個參考資料啊就要更完整啊不然他英文就是老師一本書交講義然後隔著螢幕聽老師上課然後最後他就能夠交出報告這個對一般大學生來說啊這個聽起來是不可思議"},{"start":416.147,"end":440.423,"text":"是 我們再請蔣介石來研議就是說專門對於有這個上進學習的需求的部分看怎麼樣來處理就是來協助他們啦來協助他們報告委員 我們空袋有兩種一種是協婚班一種是協志班就是大家可以拿到協士那一般協婚班他"},{"start":441.323,"end":456.915,"text":"也比較簡單他就相關的資料搜尋好寫書面報告之後他就提交給我知道啦他就沒辦法搜尋他協志班因為他可能還有其他的活動作業所以他可能會比一般民眾"},{"start":457.876,"end":478.076,"text":"他的演習時間要拉長他們都很樂意可以拿到在執行又可以拿到學位他們也很樂意會用工去收集最後一個是請教一下我們的受刑人如果有身心障礙你們這個處遇機制裡頭有一個分數叫做作業"},{"start":479.634,"end":492.431,"text":"他可能要出來做一些東西嘛那他這個如果身心障礙這家都沒辦法那這個分數他怎麼得報告委員我們有所謂的和還儲益"},{"start":493.942,"end":515.74,"text":"對於那種比較嚴重一點的我們會給他一個優待在作業方面因為他事實上沒有達到沒有辦法達到那麼高的效率但是我們基於人權的考量會有所謂的合環處一各機關會把這些相關適合合環處一的報到我們署裡面我們署裡面會來核准"},{"start":516.838,"end":536.284,"text":"所以這個他的作業分數的計算可能就跟一般的壽星人不一樣會打八折他可以打折啦可以打八折責任分數責任分數就變少嘛會變少所以他得到的分數扣過去就分數會比較高一點嘛"},{"start":537.765,"end":554.636,"text":"那剛剛這個次長報告的時候有提到啊什麼收音機啦我請教一下我們現在的受刑人在裡頭啊到底可不可以看電視台啊這個應該細節給他講那應該我就據我的了解是有好那可不可以看爭論節目啊"},{"start":557.411,"end":580.339,"text":"包括那個委員如果有一些有所謂的進鑑的方面我們會參考法官進鑑的內容如果他有說政論節目不行或是跟他相關有關的消息不行我們那個是不會給他看那個台的一般是可以一般是可以那就是幾台可以看幾台"},{"start":582.273,"end":591.85,"text":"這個幾台可能就不一定吧每個地區的台數不一樣所以我們可以看幾點"},{"start":593.612,"end":612.254,"text":"一般我們沿著上這種是大概九點就熄燈但是在六日可能會延長一個小時到十點才熄燈但是前提是不能開大聲音響有的是聽耳機不要吵到別人那他九點以後繼續看也不會有事啊"},{"start":613.379,"end":636.469,"text":"主管會去糾正他早點睡覺生火作息主管會去糾正他但是假日他可以延長一點所以大部分都只有那個進鑑的進鑑的話就是在這一方面會管制會管制 進鑑會管制那其他的就是處遇的這個分手有高那就會讓他看"},{"start":638.028,"end":658.73,"text":"對我們的階級處理現在都比較朝向人道化剛剛提到那個電視嘛電視原來是4級就可以但是收音機要3級我們在113年已經函試了這個因為這個之前是35年訂定那時候沒有電視那時候只有留聲機"},{"start":659.751,"end":669.95,"text":"所以留生機它變成是三級可以持有留生機那這些相關的機制你們再加速來處理好不好你們不是說你們要檢討嘛對不對好那謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":250,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時16分）謝謝主席，請次長跟署長。"],["黃次長世杰：哪位署長？"],["王委員義川：健保署署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員早。"],["石署長崇良：委員早。"],["王委員義川：我先請教健保署，受刑人的健保費，如果是依附在家屬名下，就是家屬繳費了？"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["王委員義川：如果什麼都沒有了，就欠錢？"],["石署長崇良：如果真的是繳不出來的，我們有一些協處機制，包含愛心專款等等，不然如果他仍然有能力繳的，我們有所謂的六類，看看他本來……"],["王委員義川：他怎麼會有能力繳？他就被關在裡面啊！"],["石署長崇良：如果他自己仍有收入的時候，矯正機關有一個補助的機制可以協處。"],["王委員義川：對啊！可是那個錢應該都不多，我的意思是說，如果他也沒什麼能力繳，家人也不讓他依附在下面，則他出獄的時候，可能就已經先欠你們錢了。"],["石署長崇良：因為現在如果是在收容的時候，就會予以改類，變成第四類第二目，若是第四類第二目的話，矯正機關會予以協助。"],["黃次長世杰：我們有編預算來處理這一塊。"],["王委員義川：法務部會再跟當事人催繳嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：沒有，這個已經改列了。"],["王委員義川：改列了？"],["黃次長世杰：對！"],["王委員義川：署長，你講的跟錢有關係的那個健保費是怎樣的情況？"],["石署長崇良：喔！那是服務費用，就是他的健保費沒有問題，已繳了保費，但是在接受服務的時候，要付部分負擔，我們一般的民眾都有部分負擔，而他主要是部分負擔的部分繳不出來。"],["王委員義川：這也要給人家收喔？他就沒錢了，你還給他收錢？"],["石署長崇良：不是，這依法就是要收，所以我們是希望……"],["王委員義川：不然他乾脆跟醫生說，藥的部分不要開到他要支付部分負擔的費用。"],["石署長崇良：因為大部分的藥都是健保給付的，但是就像我們一般民眾去醫院、去診所都有不同的部分負擔，這是最基本的部分負擔。"],["王委員義川：那這個費用就變成是欠健保的囉？"],["石署長崇良：對！"],["王委員義川：這個法務部就不處理了？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我請矯正署署長來跟各位報告一下。"],["王委員義川：好。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，法務部大概編列了十四億多的健保費用，至於部分負擔的部分，就像民眾一樣，可能掛號費是150塊，部分負擔是50塊，就是付個200塊，所以如果他掛號費或是部分負擔繳不出來，其實這都是小額的，如果他是弱勢團體，其實我們有相關的弱勢團體補助，包括醫院……"],["王委員義川：就比照一般民眾，對吧？"],["周署長輝煌：經濟困難的我們會有補助，公益金也好，或是醫院也有一些社會福利基金。"],["王委員義川：他被關在裡面，當然是經濟困難，他就沒有收入了啊！"],["周署長輝煌：但是我們還可以協助他向健保署申請分期繳納或是申請貸款，如果他欠得比較多的話。"],["王委員義川：我知道，我提這個的目的是有些受刑人是要改過自新的，在關了幾年之後就要出去，出來之後也舉目無親、妻離子散，而且也沒有收入，結果他一走出監獄的時候，就欠人家錢，且欠錢的對象是政府，我的意思是這樣，有可能吧？"],["石署長崇良：有！跟委員報告，他出獄之後，我們就有協處方案，在我們各分區都有一些就經濟弱勢者、有困難的，會協處他們來分期付款或補助等等都有。"],["王委員義川：好，兩位署長請回，謝謝。","次長，請問一下受刑人在監獄裡頭可以接受大學教育嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：有，我們今天報告有提到。"],["王委員義川：接受大學教育就是空中大學了？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["王委員義川：科系自己選，是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["王委員義川：請問這些人怎麼交報告？"],["黃次長世杰：細節的部分，我還是請署長來說明一下，不好意思！"],["王委員義川：他在裡面可能也不能用網路，如果老師上課時要求交報告，他該怎麼辦？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，像這種參加空大的，一般來講，可能學習的期間會延長，所以空大相關要提的報告，他們還是會按照要求來提，只是他可能在學分上也好，或是他能夠有的時間……"],["王委員義川：我知道，可是他寫報告後不能上網啊！"],["周署長輝煌：他也可以用其他的方式，當然是不能上網！"],["王委員義川：沒有其他方式，監獄裡面什麼都沒有，他要怎麼交報告？"],["周署長輝煌：他寫報告的那個專業科目，比如說相關的參考資料，他也是可以取得的，不一定要用網路，所以他們相關資料取得之後，也是可以提交書面，這是沒有問題的。"],["王委員義川：我知道啦！次長，就署長這樣的說法，現在大學生寫報告如果無法上網，請問要怎麼寫？就只看老師給的教科書跟講義，這樣就能夠寫期末報告，這很難吧？"],["黃次長世杰：因為上網涉及到很多監獄管理的問題。"],["王委員義川：對，我知道。"],["黃次長世杰：所以可能也未必因為他有在就學，就適合全面來開放，這個部分可能我們再研議看看。"],["王委員義川：好，接受大學教育，不是只有背書或只有翻課本，如果這個空大老師上課的方式，是希望學生交報告，顯然給他的參考資料就要更完整，不然他永遠就只有老師要求的那本書和那些講義，隔著螢幕聽老師上課，最後他就能夠交出報告，這對一般大學生來說，聽起來是不可思議。"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們再請矯正署來研議，就是專門對於上進學習的需求部分，看怎麼樣來處理。"],["王委員義川：可能要來協助他們。"],["黃次長世杰：好，我請矯正署補充。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們空大有兩種，一種是學分班；一種是學士班，就是他可以拿到學士。一般學分班也比較簡單，就是相關的資料搜尋好，寫了書面報告之後，就提交給空大；學士班，因為可能還有其他的活動、作業，所以研習時間可能會比一般民眾還要拉得比較長。"],["王委員義川：我知道會比較長。"],["周署長輝煌：他們都很樂意，在執刑中又可以拿到學位，他們也很樂意，會用功去蒐集。"],["王委員義川：OK。","最後要請教一下，我們的受刑人如果有身心障礙，你們的處遇機制裡頭，有一個分數叫做作業，即他可能要出來做一些東西，如果他有身心障礙都沒辦法做這些作業，請問他如何取得這個分數？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們有所謂的和緩處遇，對於那種比較嚴重一點的，在作業方面，我們會給他一個優待，因為他事實上沒有辦法達到那麼高的效率，但是我們基於人權的考量會有所謂的和緩處遇，各機關會把這些相關適合和緩處遇的報到我們署裡面，我們署會來核准。"],["王委員義川：所以他的作業分數的計算可能就跟一般受刑人不一樣？"],["周署長輝煌：會打八折，他可以打八折，責任分數會優待。"],["王委員義川：責任分數就變少嘛？"],["周署長輝煌：會變少。"],["王委員義川：所以他得到的分數扣過去就會比較高一點嘛？"],["周署長輝煌：對，比較容易拿到分數。"],["王委員義川：OK。剛剛次長報告的時候有提到收音機，請教現在的受刑人在裡頭到底可不可以看電視臺？"],["黃次長世杰：這個細節應該給他講，據我了解是有。"],["王委員義川：好，那可不可以看政論節目？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，如果一些有所謂禁見的方面，我們會參考法官的禁見內容，如果他有說政論節目不行或是跟他有關的消息不行，我們是不會給他看那個臺的，一般是可以。"],["王委員義川：那可以看幾臺？"],["周署長輝煌：幾臺可能就不一定，每個地區的臺數不一樣。"],["王委員義川：OK，可以看到幾點？"],["周署長輝煌：一般我們原則上這種大概是21點就熄燈，但是在週六、日可能會延長1個小時，到22點才熄燈，但是前提是音響不能開大聲，有的是聽耳機，不要吵到別人。"],["王委員義川：那他21點以後繼續看不會有事啊？"],["周署長輝煌：主管會去糾正他。"],["王委員義川：叫他不要看？"],["周署長輝煌：就是生活作息早點睡覺，主管會去糾正他，但是假日他可以延長一點。"],["王委員義川：所以大部分都只有禁見的，禁見的話就是在這一方面會管制？"],["周署長輝煌：會管制，禁見會管制。"],["王委員義川：其他的就是處遇的分數夠就會讓他看？"],["周署長輝煌：對，我們的階級處遇現在都比較朝向人道化，剛剛提到電視嘛！電視原來是4級就可以，但是收音機要3級，我們在113年已經函釋了，因為這個之前是35年訂定，那時候沒有電視，只有留聲機，所以變成是3級就可以持有留聲機。"],["王委員義川：這些相關的機制你們再來加速處理，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：好。"],["王委員義川：你們不是說要檢討嘛，對不對？好，謝謝。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員。","議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定，現在我們先確定議事錄。請問各位，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤及遺漏？（無）沒有錯誤及遺漏的話，議事錄確定。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"16775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16775","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c8f16848c68b09429b5fa2f296a93534418e1797692e3a0de763789953a92d515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-23T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T14:26:00+08:00","duration":21361,"影片長度":"05:56:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十七次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年六月十八日星期三九十一分至十三時四十二分地點群憲樓八零一會議室出席委員陳委員昭之等十四人列席委員林委員德夫等十二人列席官員勞動部部長洪生翰等相關人員主席蘇兆吉委員清泉"},{"start":1850.772,"end":1857.656,"text":"報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請勞動部部長就營造友善職場育兒環境落實照顧不離職政策規劃進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等18人提出質詢均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員林德福及楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":1876.367,"end":1894.802,"text":"決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定通過臨時提案二項宣讀完畢好請委員會上市議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1895.987,"end":1917.851,"text":"沒有,那我們議事錄來確定本日會議整為第一案審查委員劉建國等17年及台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚老人福利罰第48條條文修正草案即兩案第二案審查委員及台灣民眾黨民眾黨黨團分別凝聚身心障礙者權利保障罰第53條條文修正草案即11案"},{"start":1919.741,"end":1942.536,"text":"第三案審查委員分別凝聚身心障礙者權利保障法部分條文審查案計23案那以上議程採綜合詢答其中第一案及第二案於本日進行處理先做一下宣告為了使聽譽站的朋友們可以更加了解本日議案的審查過程那請委員及官員分別在諮詢台"},{"start":1944.099,"end":1955.529,"text":"及被巡台發言以立手語翻譯員畫面的轉播那現在來介紹在場的委員、列席官員及手語翻譯員另外有同步天達人的服務我們第一位委員是陳昭之陳委員第二位是林月琴林委員"},{"start":1973.41,"end":1999.731,"text":"第三位是王振旭 王委員衛務部我們邱太仁 邱部長社交署代理署長 周道軍好 次長過來我們的政務次長 李建德 李次長華規會參事 陳信成長照司 司長 祝建芳董記處處長 李秋彥"},{"start":2002.173,"end":2029.573,"text":"心理健康師代理師長鄭淑欣護理及健康照護師專門委員曾淑芬保護服務師專門委員張靖倫醫事師檢任計政卓立平中央健康保險署副署長陳亮瑜國健署檢任計政謝佩君司法院少年級家事廳法官"},{"start":2030.526,"end":2058.7,"text":"郭耀明謝謝還有家事廳的法官張宇家謝謝行政院主計總署公務預算處檢任視察陳淑萍還有國事普查處專門委員張怡惠謝謝全區部法規師檢任視察蕭立榮退伍師專門委員朱美英內政部國土管理管理署建築管理署檢任計政盧昭宏謝謝"},{"start":2060.405,"end":2084.085,"text":"國路署住宅組專門委員張宇欣警政署刑事警察局科長許忠彥好謝謝考選部參研室研究委員黃立賢縱規師專門委員翁千惠交通部公共運輸及監理師副市長胡迪奇行政院人事行政總處縱規處檢任市長孫成錦還有"},{"start":2089.966,"end":2106.733,"text":"主編人力處專門委員曾永芳素化部數位政務司高級分析師王忠彥勞動部勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉還有身心障礙者及特定對象就業組組長劉玉儀勞動條件及就業評委司副市長王金榮統計處專門委員鄭雅飛經濟部"},{"start":2120.062,"end":2148.793,"text":"經濟法治師專門委員馬海傑標準局檢任計政政覽員產花署科長林育淳產業技術師科長陳俊維教育部學生事務及特殊教育師專門委許文珍文化部重貴司副司長陳怡靜法務部參事汪蘭君"},{"start":2150.422,"end":2172.021,"text":"小政署主任律師蘇坤明金龍監督管理委員會保險局副組長許文鈞國家通信傳播委員會法律事務處總統委員李文秀原住民社會福利處副組長董建芬"},{"start":2176.654,"end":2199.506,"text":"來我們現在又到了本委員會的陳清輝陳委員好我們今天特別邀請到的是這個首席議員還有天達園的這些成員以上跟各位介紹我們李振輝首席議員謝謝好歡迎"},{"start":2205.964,"end":2214.808,"text":"張慈山 守議員 好 謝謝邱垂祿 守議員 就這位 謝謝陳梅婉 守議員 好 謝謝聽導員 由葉惠慈黃之琳 聽導員 謝謝彭仁義 聽導員 謝謝方文文 聽導員 謝謝"},{"start":2237.982,"end":2260.05,"text":"謝宜萱聽打員還有趙昌偉聽打員好謝謝現在請提案委員來說明提案要旨讓每位委員每按兩分鐘我們先請第一位陳昭之陳委員代表台灣民眾黨團來做說明兩個一併可以說明"},{"start":2268.766,"end":2288.34,"text":"好可以了好謝謝主席好那我先提到這個身上者權益保障法第53條的說明那民眾黨這次修法的核心是讓公共空間的設計更符合現代社會的包容性跟多元需求我們不時都會在新聞上看到類似的新聞上禮拜新北市有一位國動男生"},{"start":2288.96,"end":2293.844,"text":"他在公車上其實已經讓座給他人卻被一位大媽用好幾分鐘的時間惡言責罵讓這個孩子在車上錯氣那台北捷運也長期出現好多這樣的狀況那這樣類似的糾紛案件大概有幾百件其實實際需求的乘客例如懷孕初期的婦女罹患內科慢性疾病或身體不適但沒有辦法清楚辨識的民眾常常因為看不到而被指責被要求讓位甚至引發爭議"},{"start":2318.642,"end":2330.247,"text":"這會造成使用上的壓力而且也偏離座位設計的原意那民眾黨參考了英國日國日本及台鐵的做法建議將現行條文中的博愛座優先修正為優先座並將適用對象擴大為有實際需求者取代原來有刻板印象的老弱婦孺這錯詞透過文字跟標示的調整讓公共運輸座位的使用更加清楚讓不必要的產生不必要的道德的這個審判誤會"},{"start":2347.453,"end":2350.875,"text":"擁擠的車廂有任何需求的攝影都不應該為了一個座位感到羞愧、愁愁或難堪真正成熟的社會不應該把善意變成壓力也不應該讓一張椅子成為道德審判的法庭我們想修的不只是條文而是社會看待需求者的眼光這是選擇而不是義務希望透過這次的修法還規每一個"},{"start":2371.849,"end":2379.332,"text":"需要被照顧人的一份安心跟尊嚴那請懇請這個各位委員能夠支持我這個版本那我接下來繼續再談老人福利法第48條的修法說明我也謝謝劉教委能夠這次能讓我們來有機會提出這個修正案我們這次提出的第48條修正案主要是為了導正"},{"start":2392.617,"end":2405.204,"text":"目前不同的長照機構 評鑑制度跟行政處分依據不一致的問題這幾天我有看到很多長照3.0的新聞未來我國的長照政策有三大策略方向就是放寬服務對象 擴充服務內容"},{"start":2408.306,"end":2419.912,"text":"導入這個社會輔具智慧輔具等等這個創新元素那其中今年九月將優先擴大外籍看護的家庭可以使用日照拖固交通補助並放寬喘息服務的這個場域增加服務機構的彈性"},{"start":2423.294,"end":2440.553,"text":"這些措施跟我們修正案的理念不謀而合都是關注實際的照顧體驗給予需求者更多的彈性然而在現行制度中老人福利機構被評為兵等或丁等會面臨罰則跟公告然後這個等地制是根據執法所設"},{"start":2441.474,"end":2444.058,"text":"跟這個長期照顧服務法或護理人員等法規明確的合格跟不合格標準明顯脫節就是一個有等地一個是合格或不合格那這樣的制度不僅造成評鑑制度的結果認定不一也衍生出排名的壓力"},{"start":2457.677,"end":2461.359,"text":"那機構為了過度的書面的作業實際照顧時間可能受到擠壓那更嚴重的就是制度本身可能會誤導機構為了追求分數 譬如79分跟80分就是不同等地會偏離提高照顧品質的本質目標所以台灣民眾黨的修法是把條文中的兵等或丁等明確改為不合格那作為行政處分的依據"},{"start":2483.151,"end":2501.504,"text":"也就是說促使主管機關能夠修正執法讓評鑑制度回歸單純公平跟所有的照顧長照的體系有一致的標準就是合格或不合格而不是加以丙丁等讓真正的機構能夠朝向品質提升永續經營的方向邁進這樣也才能夠落實對於高齡者的基本照顧權益保障那我也懇請在座的同事們能夠支持這次的修法謝謝"},{"start":2510.728,"end":2516.556,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭志委員的提案說明那接下來請提案委員林月琴委員來做說明"},{"start":2527.114,"end":2544.659,"text":"博愛座的概念源自於對蔣介石的紀念為民國65年台北市公車業者為追屍已故前總統蔣介石逝世週年共同協議開始的措施其後在民國102年的時候身心障礙者權益保障法第53條修法"},{"start":2546.86,"end":2567.175,"text":"規定大眾運輸工具應設立博愛座提供給老弱婦孺優先乘坐並比例要達到總座位的15%因此有了法院依據而後交通部也在106年的時候據此訂定了大眾運輸工具無障礙設施設置辦法整體落實生權法第53條的規定"},{"start":2568.649,"end":2596.032,"text":"不過近來發生的博愛座之亂其實社會已經爭議了一段時間其中令人擔憂的現象在於爭議事件在媒體所呈現的多半出現的是老人硬逼著年輕人要讓座而發生衝突這樣的訊息在世代間會造成老青兩個世代各自受傷的結果一方面營造老人依老賣老不講理的形象同時也營造年輕人自私冷漠的樣貌"},{"start":2597.831,"end":2619.534,"text":"讓座本來是出自於乘客間的善意但是因為不讓座而擴大為惡意的解讀甚至造成世代間的爭議這應該不是當時提出法律修正案的委員的想法我認為不讓座應該要設置但是在法律上跟民眾的認知上有各自有調整的必要對有善意的人來說大眾運輸工具"},{"start":2621.095,"end":2639.819,"text":"不需特别设立博爱座也会自动让座而当民众不让座并不意味着他没有善意而极有可能他也有需要这个座位据这样的观念我认为身权法规定的博爱座应该定义为优先座强调因为身体不是有需要的人优先使用"},{"start":2643.92,"end":2659.835,"text":"換句話說如果沒有這樣的需求出現的時候任何人都可以使用隨著法律的修正對預期媒體的宣傳這樣的新觀念可以及時讓民眾獲得產生出新的見解跟新的社會共識敬請各位委員支持 以上謝謝"},{"start":2675.529,"end":2691.887,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員還有各位關心這個議題的朋友大家早安本席有兩個版本因此一次進行兩案的提案說明我提出的身心障礙權力保障法有三個修法重點首先第53條有關博愛做的修法"},{"start":2692.307,"end":2721.409,"text":"近年來博愛座引起許多的社會爭議有些人可能是身體不適或有隱形的障礙當下真的需要坐下來休息但因為看起來不像老弱婦就被懷疑甚至被責難這其實對當事人是一種傷害所以我們把實際有需要的人明確的寫進法律裡就是希望社會能慢慢來改變觀念博愛座的精神不是你要看起來需要而是你真的有需要"},{"start":2721.969,"end":2739.056,"text":"這才是重點我們希望透過這樣的修法讓大家知道每個人都可能有需要幫助的時候不要太快用外表來判斷也別因為對方不像你想像中的樣子就覺得他不應該坐在博愛座上這是我們一起要努力建立的社會氛圍"},{"start":2740.316,"end":2755.239,"text":"第二 聯合國生長權利審查報告指出我國過去對於教養院福利機構之規範仍有不足也曾發生過多起不當對待甚至人權侵害的事件這樣的情況不該再被容忍"},{"start":2755.76,"end":2773.253,"text":"因此我們這次增訂機構負責人的資格限制並建立資格審查制度同時明文規定發現虐待遺棄等情況下的通報義務和罰則讓每一位身障者在機構中都能獲得尊嚴與安全"},{"start":2773.993,"end":2789.93,"text":"第三我們也看到資源分配的不均如何限制了身障朋友的生活參與行動自由無論是手語翻譯同步聽打或是跨區交通的協助這些原本應該由政府積極提供的支持"},{"start":2790.55,"end":2816.515,"text":"卻因為城鄉的差距財政不均而嚴重有落差我們此次的修法特別增訂主管機關應該設立整合平台推動橫向資源協調還有資訊透明讓身障者不受制於住在哪裡而是真正平等的享有應有的權利和服務委員會的諸位同仁我們所提出的這些修法都是許多身障朋友的建議與呼籲"},{"start":2818.235,"end":2823.901,"text":"同時也是社會對平等還有人權的期待希望不分朝野都可以支持這樣子的修法謝謝"},{"start":2841.528,"end":2848.635,"text":"那戶口58條我再補充一下剛剛陳教授也講的重點了最主要還是台灣的這個住室機構不只是這個老人護理機構包含這個長照機構還有護理機構那兩個機構就是現有的長照機構跟護理機構的評鑑標準就是合格跟不合格"},{"start":2862.788,"end":2876.882,"text":"那為什麼老虎機構把它分作加以秉定那我想我們就希望透過秀娃把它去一致啦簡單講就是這個樣子這樣還是 這樣是在行政機關在執行的時候我覺得是有一致性的一個處理方式"},{"start":2877.866,"end":2890.289,"text":"這應該是一個非常正確的一個作為那第二件事情我必須要再特別提醒衛福部因為身權法我們今天分作第二案跟第三案那第二案是53條就針對這個博愛生活的事情這個是將近50年來的這個過去訂定的制度"},{"start":2897.231,"end":2901.354,"text":"確實不只是這段時間其實累積這四五十年來還是有很多爭議的狀況站在這個主管機關微部必須要去審視面對這個事情應該如何來做一個更積極的符合社會大眾期待博愛座的定義、名稱跟範圍"},{"start":2918.067,"end":2929.19,"text":"跟執行的這樣的一個認定我想這個是一個非常重要的事情所以我們把它抽出來在第二案那第三案我要特別特別再提醒衛務部深圈館這次有將近快二十幾案也就是說有很多委員提出要來大幅修正深圈館的版本深圈館最主要還是要來回應"},{"start":2943.653,"end":2960.507,"text":"身心障礙者的這樣的一個需求跟相關權力的保障那勢必面對到很多的面向我們要有更多的這樣的一個討論的一個方式我記得十來年前的時候應該是在15、16年前當時的申請法也大修了三十多個條文那時候行政機關也積極的面對我們甚至以沒有用到委員會時間從要正式進到委員會"},{"start":2972.287,"end":2980.815,"text":"主條審查的時候我是藉隔壁的那個會議廳從下午兩點邀請所有各單位就像今天這樣各個單位因為深圳涉及的面向很廣然後市權的機關也很多所以我們從下午兩點開始跟各個機關還有身陷障礙者團體面對面的還有很多的委員大家開誠布公的"},{"start":2996.85,"end":3004.344,"text":"然後針對很多的角度 很多的現狀 很多的執行面然後有鉅細明理的這樣的一個討論所以我們從下午2點一直討論到晚上10點"},{"start":3010.271,"end":3029.244,"text":"我們也才能申請我可以在那一次有這樣的具體性的進展的一個修法的一個斬獲但是已經又過了現在十多年那各位委員也應所有申請參加者朋友的這樣的一個期待跟提出了這樣的一個意見也希望我們可以快速的來進入實質的上的討論但是原本"},{"start":3032.706,"end":3039.089,"text":"驗版似乎的速度有一點慢了我還是希望這邊提醒我們衛務部部長還有相關的主政機關是不是可以盡速的把這樣的回應身心上期待的這樣的一個版本 驗版趕快提出來讓我們可以跟所有的委員來這個"},{"start":3058.895,"end":3077.589,"text":"要來替身心障礙者把相關的制度定得更完善更周全的這些委員有所回應這部分我特別要跟衛福部來做提醒除了今天有很多的身心障礙者朋友也開了記者會"},{"start":3078.786,"end":3106.08,"text":"不管是這個個人助理支持的這樣的一個服務還有自己生活的這樣的一個支持當我們有這樣的政策但是實際上執行面確實打了大大的這樣折扣那問題的所在是在什麼地方有訂制度然後卻沒有辦法按制度來執行所以這有牽涉到所謂的真正的這樣的相關的一些配套還有相關的一些監督的一個機制必須真的是要"},{"start":3107.885,"end":3130.563,"text":"快速的來做相關的一些調整跟修正才有真正的來回應他們這樣的一個需求也讓政府真正的一個美意可以達到更好的這樣的一個進展所以我在這邊做一個重要的補充所以我還是希望期待我們衛部可以儘速把願板提出來以上跟委會做這樣的報告 謝謝"},{"start":3136.672,"end":3139.214,"text":"接下來我們就請衛務部邱部長就本日議程來併用說明"},{"start":3149.591,"end":3176.323,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議審查老人福利法第48條條文修正草案及身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案本部呈邀列席報告敬請各位委員不吝執教一、審查老人福利法第48條條文"},{"start":3178.064,"end":3194.765,"text":"修正草案有關委員建議將老人福利機構評鑑之評鑑結果調整為合格不合格之修正方向有利於本部各項各類住宿型機構評鑑結果之一致性本部竟表支持"},{"start":3196.087,"end":3212.707,"text":"2.审查身心障碍者权益保障法部分修正条文修正草案本部中省委员提案版本仅就共同性意见简要说明1.委员徐悟辉等18人委员林楚英等20人委员焕云等17人"},{"start":3213.368,"end":3232.614,"text":"委員陳金輝等16人委員羅廷偉等16人委員何新淳等17人委員廖偉祥等19人委員羅美玲等16人委員劉憲國等17人提案增訂身心障礙者代表組成比例及受理申訴案件政會表列身心障礙者參與"},{"start":3233.516,"end":3259.929,"text":"人數比例有利於身心障礙者積極參與政策決策過程本部予以支持但會議召開頻率記錄公開方式等執行細節可訂定行政規則落實辦理無需以法律位階明定另外現行已有設立身心障礙者權益射損協調機制可針對歧視案事件進行行政調查及裁處無需再訂定申訴制度"},{"start":3263.547,"end":3266.009,"text":"有關擴大歧視規定及增加賠償請求權行政院克正原定緩歧視法草案"},{"start":3289.246,"end":3315.815,"text":"建議配合該法相關規定辦理為妥另外有關納入合理調整規定本部競表致詞為合理調整屬於新的概念尚需透過社會先導與及教育如立即訂定罰則恐引發負面效果建請審慎考量三 委員范穎等17人 委員羅廷偉等16人委員何新泉等17人 委員廖瑋祥等16人"},{"start":3317.526,"end":3331.731,"text":"廖偉祥等21人委員劉建國等17人提案增訂同儕支持個人助理與社區居住之專章或專條委員所提專章專條之個人協助定義與範圍未明確"},{"start":3333.912,"end":3354.494,"text":"可能以長期照顧教育部門、教育部門及社政部門之服務人力與法令產生競合其次,本法第五十條已有社區機制服務其服務內涵並同個人助理服務之執行細節,僅規範以本法授權執法身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法"},{"start":3355.555,"end":3373.611,"text":"建立无虚于文化称定是委员陈冠廷等二十人委员邱振军等十六至九人委员徐玉珍等十八人委员陈庆威等十六人委员邱德华等十七人委员林烈群等十七人委员范林等十七人委员鲁饼子等十七人"},{"start":3374.352,"end":3390.91,"text":"委員洪孟寒等17人、委員傅昆起等20人、委員廟瑋祥等17人、委員何欣淳等17人、委員劉建國等17人台灣民眾黨黨團提案調整優先乘坐不該坐的對象、條件、座位名稱及設置比例"},{"start":3392.131,"end":3413.323,"text":"有關將乘坐不外坐對象擴大至為其他實際需要者並將不外坐之用於修正為優先其本部予以支持另有關將不外坐設置比例、大眾運輸工具設計概念等市設交通部全者疑請該部表示意見"},{"start":3414.884,"end":3439.3,"text":"委員陳金輝等16人委員羅伯霆等17人委員邱建國等17人提案增訂身心障礙福利機構之院長主任或工作人員是消極資格有關建議增訂身心障礙福利機構業務負責人院長主任工作人員消極資格及機構違反法規法則以保證服務對象權利並確保機構服務品質本部競表致詞"},{"start":3445.404,"end":3448.225,"text":"有關明定各類傳播媒體不得有歧視性報導以弱勢平等與不歧視精神本部競表支持"},{"start":3469.758,"end":3491.265,"text":"唯有官規範對象徵定公職人員、民意代表參選人或個人等歧視之法者考量前開刑刑樣態多元現階段能應著重於社會宣導及教育,自然徵定法者恐產生負面效果,予應審慎研議"},{"start":3494.388,"end":3518.761,"text":"有關各委員所提版本室條文,請參閱書面報告本部曾答應各委員支持交集監督,在此靜置現場,並期各位委員繼續予以支持以上,謝謝好,謝謝部長有關本室會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄,刊登公報"},{"start":3523.567,"end":3546.199,"text":"現在開始詢答 做一下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘那10點半截止 歡迎登記委員如有出面質詢 請於三位前提出預期不受理那暫定10點半休息10分鐘依往例審查法案不處理臨時提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭之委員來做詢答謝謝主席 麻煩部長"},{"start":3554.48,"end":3555.81,"text":"好,來,有請部長"},{"start":3560.254,"end":3578.164,"text":"部長早部長您上任一年多了我相信對您自己所管轄的機構跟這個業務都相當的掌握那平常跟轄下的官員應該有很多的開會我想請問部長目前手下您的官員的職位代理情形您是否有掌握呢因為目前的主祕現任主祕劉玉娟原來兼任這個社保司司長但去年因為涉嫌這個霸凌免監之後他現在應該沒有對同仁再不要罵了吧"},{"start":3589.233,"end":3611.363,"text":"沒有沒有 我們現在一片祥和 人品的增長 讓你的業務也能夠順利進行我手邊掌握的資訊是 目前代理的官員有社保市代理市長陳真惠新建市代理市長鄭淑欣 社家屬代理市長周道軍請問資料正確嗎 就目前還有市長是代理我想請問部長 你這些人士聘用有摯愛嗎"},{"start":3614.005,"end":3628.604,"text":"因為他們都代理半年以上了那我其實沒有要否定這個代理主管的他們的努力但是持續代理沒有辦法轉正或是你沒辦法找到適當的接任人選我覺得在業務執行上這個還是會有一些彆扭"},{"start":3628.985,"end":3634.549,"text":"同仁們也會覺得說有點群龍無首會有點不安而且這些都是專業領域您身為這個臺灣社政衛政的這個大家長很多專業團體民間團體甚至他們想要做一些陳情甚至一些討論參與政策的參與那也會擔心沒有一個明確的一個官員還能夠帶領他們來做這些溝通那如果有司長跟署長的一起參與我覺得我相信對衛福部在業務上執行上也會比較有魄力所以請問部長你多久才能夠聘滿這些職務"},{"start":3659.285,"end":3674.422,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心那第一個我首先保證我們的業務一定是我們行程督導讓那個相關的司徒剛剛提到的司徒運作無礙而且我們很感謝代理人都非常優秀"},{"start":3675.603,"end":3688.274,"text":"代理的 對 那我想說前署長楊淑儀她也特別提到其實用人要不分顏色嘛 只要就是說業界啦 民間啦 專家都學者都有很多這樣的人才 我也是希望說這些人能夠趕快能夠幫助這個衛福部能夠推動更多的這個政策跟福國利民的一些法案嘛 我們是樂觀其成啦部長 這個部分請加油齁 這個代理時間有點久了不要像薛衛原部長喔衛福部討人厭 一選選了兩年多喔"},{"start":3702.406,"end":3708.269,"text":"唯材適用好 部長請記得 謝謝你部長 那這個身心障礙者的權利公約我以下簡稱CRPD強調自立生活是障礙者的基本權利那很多團體一直很關心剛剛這個趙偉有提到個人助理服務究竟能否入法所以我想請問部長威福這次修法有沒有這個增訂條文區分"},{"start":3724.117,"end":3740.594,"text":"照顧服務跟個人助理服務並且明文保障障礙者能夠選擇支持者跟他服務方式的自主權因為根據CRPD的第五條的一般性的意見他個人助理服務的核心就是由障礙者主導自主選擇的支持可是現在實務有一個問題"},{"start":3743.837,"end":3770.706,"text":"就是說因為現在有長照服務那障礙者沒有辦法使用這個各住服務導致障礙者的生活就被迫要去配合這個體制上的這個限制部長您知道我提的這個情形嗎我瞭解但是目前來講並沒有使用長照服務就不能使用各住服務等一下我來舉例有一些限制我規定那當然這樣的結合是不是在溝通上我們都可以求改或者是在制度上需要再改善所以你目前的設計並沒有把它區分開來還沒有區分開來"},{"start":3773.567,"end":3779.831,"text":"那很感謝委員對CRPD的瞭解跟指導那我想CRPD5號一般性意見是針對CRPD第49條的一個補充說明那這個就強調我想不敢外言我想您的屬下他們應該是比較熟悉"},{"start":3789.677,"end":3794.561,"text":"雖然強調身心障礙者自立我想跟您分享就是台灣身心障礙者自主聯盟自立生活的聯盟在去年有針對個人助理服務進行問卷調查結果顯示有分之一的受訪者他反映這些資料也請你參考服務時數是不足的個人助理人力不足還有有一些受訪者指出說會限制我的生活決定"},{"start":3811.334,"end":3837.015,"text":"或自負額過高啦服務內容不符需求評估結果跟實際需求不符等等那目前有一些縣市他不提供例如例如洗澡啦料理啦這個煮東西的如廁外出啊陪伴等基本項目但是這些正是障礙者每天生活的核心需求啊那卻常常因為已經有長照的這個服務項目不列入這個補助項目等理由被排除掉部長你覺得這樣合適嗎合理嗎嗯"},{"start":3840.848,"end":3856.306,"text":"他被排除掉了這個用 其實這用長照跟個人助理的用意絕對是把它相互相承 相得益彰部長 正是 部長就是長照體系或個人助理體系其實它的出發點都是協助跟支持但是這個制度互相抵觸 互相排除時那"},{"start":3857.867,"end":3881.143,"text":"這個障礙者他無法獲得完整的服務反而在兩個系統當中被推來推去有點像皮球被這個踢來踢去所以部長你覺得這樣的制度有落實這個剛剛我提到的CRPD第五號一般性意見所強調的支持障礙者自立生活跟自主選擇這樣子的一個做法嗎所以市域部長你願意考慮一下想辦法讓這個個人助理服務從長照的這個邏輯"},{"start":3883.044,"end":3891.262,"text":"出來把它釋放出來建立一套獨立的以障礙者的需求為主的一個支持制度就這個方向可以嗎"},{"start":3895.548,"end":3904.695,"text":"因為他們覺得有排除互相抵觸但是還有需要改進的地方一定努力來改進自己說個人助理的服務其實已經都存在了會需要個人需要來給他服務那是不是說要進一步來進"},{"start":3915.062,"end":3942.467,"text":"更具體來呈現那可能就是要來好好的研議它所產生的需要性我不瞞委員報告大概一兩年前我也是同樣我當召委的時候也是邀請到所有的我們所有老師各種老師一起來在這邊討論的相當的一個因為在這個部分是有更多的討論需要性所以才會延到現在又再繼續來討論我相信我們一定能夠討論是一個"},{"start":3943.767,"end":3961.572,"text":"新興障礙者自立生活聯盟他們提出三個訴求第一個就是個人助理不應該限制障礙者的生活跟決定因為個人助理服務的精神就是透過障礙者的指示安排工作內容達到障礙者自主的選擇決定生活的目的也不應該有個長照項目就切割了"},{"start":3961.912,"end":3973.475,"text":"他的這個服務或讓他中斷 造成他的生活被就是有一些限制那第二個他們的訴求個人助理服務是達成障礙者自立生活的一環所以個人助理的限制讓障礙者可以彈性的使用這個助理服務可是目前好像有一個月就要排定所有的服務時間跟項目喔而且沒有辦法更動行程的 沒有彈性喔那而且這是他們的訴求降低障礙者服務各住的這個自負額也是他們的訴求"},{"start":3988.579,"end":4009.101,"text":"雖然有補助交通費可是這樣100塊錢他們常常有時候是會超過的他們第三個訴求就是個人助理服務當然就是說要督導教育制度完整讓他們能夠接受一個這個值錢跟回訊制度那這樣可以建立他們這個生活品質這個或是說對於自立生活概念這個概念是很很重要的"},{"start":4010.322,"end":4039.785,"text":"食物現場現在知道他們提出來的就是這些身障者食物現場有一些服務人員他會特定挑案挑案做甚至因為不想做而甚至表示說他們不提供這個服務項目或是有人常常請假造成一個調度上的一個困難所以是不是當然我也了解很多是雙向的雙向就是障礙者的需求跟這個服務者所以是不是應該對障礙者也要建立使用個人助理服務的權利跟義務認知促進了解大家怎麼來對等的合作"},{"start":4040.585,"end":4054.232,"text":"這個部分也希望在立法的時候你們可以有所顧慮到我今天花很多時間談了個人助理的改革不是因為他做得不好喔其實你看看這個數字他做得很不錯因為從這個表格看出來近三年的成績這個在2022年將近20萬小時"},{"start":4058.215,"end":4072.236,"text":"那2023年已經達到22.5萬小時我目前手邊只有2024年上半年就已經有13.8萬小時一直在持續增加所以我非常肯定社家屬應該投注了相當的心力包含地方的推動制度的盤整"},{"start":4073.497,"end":4078.882,"text":"還有這預算支持都很值得肯定但是我也希望您能夠重視一下這個障礙者的時機回歸他們覺得服務時數是還是不夠的排班沒有彈性剛剛我提到排班沒有彈性那自負額有點造成負擔服務人力不足等"},{"start":4088.47,"end":4113.943,"text":"所以制度這次是有擴張有擴大但是離真正的這個人本還有距離所以我想最後我想要跟部長談這個我要引用楊嬌大周薇欣委員的一段很重要的話她說我們現在的政府雖然通過一個法但我們要執行這個聯合國的剛剛提到了身心障礙者的權利公約但我們政府對於身心障礙者的服務的介入都停留在一個觀念叫做慈善的觀點"},{"start":4115.103,"end":4137.715,"text":"慈善的觀點但是現在整個聯合國的公約或是國際上在做這件事的時候已經都建立在人權模式的觀點但我們政府到目前為止比較偏向用慈善的觀點政府也是所以我希望是不是說本次修法可以把個人助理服務入法那區別長照導向的一個照顧導向的長照服務去做彈性調整"},{"start":4138.995,"end":4158.564,"text":"那不是權力而是福利本地我講的就是說你還欠我一個代孕專法代孕專法我也要告訴你它不是福利不是施捨它是一個我們的權利我們要做這件事情所以基本上我們不是要政府的同意跟允許我們要政府的好好管理部長我們曾經一起參與民主運動的一個年代"},{"start":4161.505,"end":4183.942,"text":"我們當時就講政府是公僕 人民才是頭家所以民主國家沒有德政這件事就是沒有福利 只有他們的權利因為政府是受人民的委託 拿到選票受到委託那是拿人民的納稅錢去服務人民所以我覺得基本上我們要在這個觀念上做改變 這是權利部長 你再看我一個代孕專訪 請你繼續努力好嗎"},{"start":4185.803,"end":4200.048,"text":"那我們朝野也一起努力我想我們對身心障礙者不只是在慈善的觀念,社會本來就是互相照顧我們更是建立在人權模式人民是頭家,政府是公僕我們一起努力過嘛,就是這樣的觀念好,謝謝委員,謝謝主席好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝部長好,接下來請林月晴委員來做詢問"},{"start":4221.941,"end":4222.863,"text":"主席麻煩邱部長"},{"start":4228.942,"end":4250.043,"text":"委員長今天早上身心障礙團體在台北市議會召開記者會訴求什麼 訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要 評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講"},{"start":4251.144,"end":4279.958,"text":"我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊"},{"start":4280.799,"end":4292.912,"text":"免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念"},{"start":4294.555,"end":4323.29,"text":"審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群"},{"start":4323.891,"end":4334.344,"text":"我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有弱勢所以本席要問的是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等"},{"start":4335.367,"end":4359.655,"text":"好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果其實我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己"},{"start":4360.756,"end":4378.388,"text":"政府的努力 人民要有信心國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法"},{"start":4379.485,"end":4396.274,"text":"那第50條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第50條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者 葬友本人為服務對象"},{"start":4397.494,"end":4419.345,"text":"補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務"},{"start":4421.647,"end":4433.005,"text":"相較之下 現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿 帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下 帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持"},{"start":4433.786,"end":4463.426,"text":"好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個市下PD裡面我們最主要是社區市的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以"},{"start":4463.706,"end":4481.658,"text":"到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會做到什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大"},{"start":4483.384,"end":4500.896,"text":"所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員"},{"start":4501.744,"end":4514.303,"text":"可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理"},{"start":4517.427,"end":4531.742,"text":"所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以"},{"start":4532.643,"end":4554.249,"text":"問一下部長 公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年 帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人"},{"start":4556.429,"end":4574.971,"text":"平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低"},{"start":4576.725,"end":4590.24,"text":"我想對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的喘息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視"},{"start":4591.341,"end":4616.262,"text":"政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們的身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包國元我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70%"},{"start":4617.603,"end":4641.065,"text":"市長那是真的是懂得了解的人 否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問喔 要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身心障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目 服務人數各自要達到多少"},{"start":4642.345,"end":4651.268,"text":"現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們現在目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項那個人助理事項是授權執法"},{"start":4667.173,"end":4692.031,"text":"那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好 不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格非常多樣"},{"start":4692.691,"end":4714.505,"text":"那並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理"},{"start":4715.936,"end":4734.379,"text":"我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們身上團體們他們的調查的不提供洗澡的22%是最多最少的就是"},{"start":4734.839,"end":4759.279,"text":"不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才608位各助而已"},{"start":4760.08,"end":4776.337,"text":"那我不知道對於各住的人的提升的問題你們還有沒有什麼其他策略是 包委員 我想委員知道就是說個人助理跟長照其實事實上它的目的是不一樣那個長照顧名思義主要是生活照顧但是個人助理這邊主要是社會參與"},{"start":4777.738,"end":4802.325,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎"},{"start":4803.085,"end":4826.838,"text":"我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照"},{"start":4827.611,"end":4843.591,"text":"服務的居家服務資源可是實務上發生先天軟骨不全證帳有具有申請各住的資格可是在長照照顧服務需求等級評估卻只有二級的那個奇怪現象這個我上次有質詢過所以想問部長說"},{"start":4847.892,"end":4863.319,"text":"這兩套評估制度有落差的問題 上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出 今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過 已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎我們現在目前"},{"start":4867.165,"end":4881.316,"text":"我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一個gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47%"},{"start":4883.505,"end":4900.327,"text":"我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題"},{"start":4902.817,"end":4924.357,"text":"對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些"},{"start":4927.74,"end":4941.735,"text":"不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在著急我現在目前社家屬這邊有問題當什麼時候可以去解決這個問題"},{"start":4943.296,"end":4961.129,"text":"我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾支計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合的部分另外一個就是剛我念了各住的一些資格裡面是跟長照服務法對於"},{"start":4962.51,"end":4980.539,"text":"照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些弱差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話"},{"start":4981.119,"end":5010.279,"text":"那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就誠如我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在"},{"start":5011.179,"end":5028.349,"text":"他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大甚至我同樣是"},{"start":5029.129,"end":5048.26,"text":"這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務"},{"start":5049.52,"end":5076.533,"text":"具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他領有這個工作的話可以讓他有份收入所以問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":5077.748,"end":5098.446,"text":"我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包委員這個確實啦我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加去考慮否則它中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮"},{"start":5099.447,"end":5118.949,"text":"然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升"},{"start":5119.549,"end":5144.605,"text":"量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定"},{"start":5145.385,"end":5164.091,"text":"各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩我們往生來努力好謝謝部長好謝謝林委員的詢問接下來請陳清輝委員來做詢問"},{"start":5182.029,"end":5208.316,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的"},{"start":5209.776,"end":5236.923,"text":"之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法"},{"start":5237.823,"end":5265.112,"text":"聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想委員也"},{"start":5267.679,"end":5291.825,"text":"也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些"},{"start":5292.885,"end":5302.334,"text":"不必要的困擾所以從Priority Seat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊"},{"start":5304.282,"end":5325.292,"text":"引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧"},{"start":5326.092,"end":5347.926,"text":"等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何你是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除"},{"start":5354.106,"end":5377.71,"text":"市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果那麼"},{"start":5378.47,"end":5403.139,"text":"不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說"},{"start":5404.059,"end":5425.168,"text":"他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子"},{"start":5429.025,"end":5457.422,"text":"我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整啦這理事的意見OK 非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是Priority seat"},{"start":5457.947,"end":5486.114,"text":"Priority那Priority的意思就是說Those who in need只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是個劣勢劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant"},{"start":5487.754,"end":5513.123,"text":"懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以所以我個人我們按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外Priority Sit英文沒問題吧但我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我們我建議可能要可以增加增加你要增加土對沒錯我們來看下一張來部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷"},{"start":5517.728,"end":5540.657,"text":"北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Please give your seat to those in need"},{"start":5541.448,"end":5542.95,"text":"所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖"},{"start":5556.924,"end":5572.591,"text":"還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目嘛因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的"},{"start":5573.711,"end":5594.84,"text":"剛剛次長有提到巴黎 倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本民國屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有 它有增加一個"},{"start":5595.9,"end":5615.953,"text":"尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法"},{"start":5617.034,"end":5639.383,"text":"因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":5640.78,"end":5648.249,"text":"這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好 到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的 好 謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為"},{"start":5661.032,"end":5684.688,"text":"這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升"},{"start":5685.769,"end":5709.001,"text":"是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的"},{"start":5710.282,"end":5724.511,"text":"至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何"},{"start":5726.087,"end":5750.879,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這一個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今"},{"start":5752.34,"end":5776.719,"text":"又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有它的成效我這邊給你看一下"},{"start":5777.339,"end":5802.374,"text":"滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下"},{"start":5804.875,"end":5829.768,"text":"你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為"},{"start":5831.069,"end":5849.111,"text":"你剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些raw data這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嘛他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的"},{"start":5850.668,"end":5872.173,"text":"包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在它跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病方面的死亡率降低"},{"start":5873.053,"end":5891.939,"text":"所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加"},{"start":5894.62,"end":5920.647,"text":"其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持"},{"start":5921.107,"end":5946.806,"text":"不过这个部分人事的这个部分特别请代理市长回答一下市长可以简单的讲一下吗跟委员报告我们的这个心理健康支持方案从去年的8月1号开始我们有扩大到我们服务的一个年龄但是除了心理健康师这边推动的这个心理健康支持方案之外其实其他的部会也有在推动心理健康支持方案譬如说劳动部也有针对劳工的部分劳动部做得很不好"},{"start":5947.967,"end":5963.637,"text":"國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個"},{"start":5967.199,"end":5988.174,"text":"原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我會跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說"},{"start":5989.855,"end":6005.228,"text":"青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業公會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情"},{"start":6005.948,"end":6035.588,"text":"就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了她因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以她跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢她比較順著她的意思所以她最後就去執行了這件事情"},{"start":6036.188,"end":6058.739,"text":"所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好 這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":6064.448,"end":6072.075,"text":"好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的"},{"start":6075.358,"end":6100.514,"text":"會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬"},{"start":6102.928,"end":6124.56,"text":"我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年輕生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝"},{"start":6131.94,"end":6133.762,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請邱政軍委員來做詢問主席好 我們一樣請邱部長來 請部長"},{"start":6150.219,"end":6167.257,"text":"委員好部長好部長我請教一下我們衛福部2024年8月7日就已經預告身心障礙權益保障法部分條文修正草案這個部分了那現在召委排審怎麼沒有看到你們的版本呢"},{"start":6171.442,"end":6190.801,"text":"是卡在行政院嗎?有,在行政院審議已經這麼久了怎麼到現在沒有消息?行政院是在搞罷免沒有控審還是怎麼樣?沒有,因為我想這個法案我剛剛有跟邱委員報告,其實在一兩年前"},{"start":6191.943,"end":6215.209,"text":"在當召委的時候也是一樣這樣的陣仗,因為我們也請了身心障礙團體的代表,所以老師這樣子我現在就熱切的討論,還是很難達成一些共識是什麼原因?可能有一些爭議的點需要再釐清,這樣才能夠對法案的所以現在是行政院在審還是你們在弄?主管機關是誰?不是你們嗎?"},{"start":6216.57,"end":6224.264,"text":"我們主管機關都是要形成懲定啊他有沒有叫你們再休有啊 已經來回了開過幾次會"},{"start":6228.271,"end":6248.916,"text":"這個請理事長包委員其實這個部分我想是因為修了十個月了你們來回幾次 開了幾次其實這個因為知識體大因為也十幾年都沒修我們這個應該要用最嚴謹的標準來進行你去年公告匯集然後到現在這麼久了你現在叫公民參與你現在公開了沒有 你重新有公開嗎"},{"start":6255.802,"end":6268.298,"text":"程序我說你重修啊你在修這個部分你有公開嗎我們那個在送行政費錢我們都有那個那個現在不是退回來嗎現在不是還要還要再審還要再協調嗎我們也跟內容內容有有有提出來嗎"},{"start":6269.193,"end":6287.805,"text":"有啊 我們當然提給行政院那邊那現在目前就是說也廣泛在各界像委員今天有很多委員也提到像這個第五十條啦這一個生活有關於個人助理啦還有這一個是你們在寫嗎 有退回來你們寫嗎"},{"start":6290.658,"end":6316.241,"text":"沒有 我們現在就是會跟各界嘛跟各界來廣泛再來智商那我想這個裡面確實還有很多不同的意見那我想也要有必要跟大家來做最廣泛的一個智商我想這個委員會我知道非常關心那我想大家也都非常非常希望能夠這個法能夠修得更好與時俱進所以我們現在目前這個部分沒有 我要提醒你們啦我們身心障礙團體要的是自立生活 合理調整"},{"start":6317.262,"end":6336.056,"text":"那通路設計這個聲音障礙團體從2017年的CRPD第一次在國際審查就講到現在了這些不是今年才有的需求為什麼還要那麼久呢我們去年衛福部的八月的版本這三件核心訴求我看也沒有寫得非常清楚"},{"start":6337.062,"end":6352.737,"text":"那現在行政院現在說要大修我們是真的在修還是準備在拖延包委員我們是真的在修我們現在目前裡面我想包委員我們為了這個修法再從去年開始所以協調還沒結束就對了你們現在協調還沒結束"},{"start":6356.42,"end":6385.738,"text":"我們現在目前還要跟那個還要跟各界還要做那個廣泛的一個的一個諮商已經在已經在是卡在行政院還是就是做協調的部分我們現在目前都在跟跟社會各界說尋求最大可能的共識我想這個也是我想我知道委員對於這個部分非常關心那我們希望能夠修得更好因為這裡面確實像剛剛委員剛剛說的有關合理調整還有像有關反歧視還有像有關於這一個對啦你大修啊不是"},{"start":6386.118,"end":6402.848,"text":"要趕快不是不送案的理由如果行政院真的要大新我覺得他應該按照行政程序應該是提出修正意見表還有會診會議記錄回送主管機關修正嘛對不對是我們現在目前也確實就是有相關的程序都在進行當中"},{"start":6403.368,"end":6429.454,"text":"這十個月因為我感覺是空窗期讓人家覺得你們沒在動也沒有在送新的版本我們在行政院那邊有那個聲音障礙者權益保障法委員會然後其實也有各式各樣的一個公聽會還有我們其實我們也舉辦了很多很多的公民共識會議來跟各聲音障礙團體我也親自去那邊出席來廣泛爭取各方的意見然後其實自立生活的人協會他也來部裡面拜訪我兩次"},{"start":6434.476,"end":6455.643,"text":"今天審查的身心障礙權益保障法裡面有34個委員提案那其中大概我們就第53條我們跟幾位立委提案的不愛做乘坐對象的文字修正不愛做或改成優先席那我們衛福部當時是表示支持的對不對那其他的都要別的部門的意見"},{"start":6456.483,"end":6473.799,"text":"身心障礙者的權益不只是座位的問題啦社會主管機關我覺得你們不能應該都要別人來回答你們角色是負責整合啦是負責整合不要變成首發單位好不好我想盡快啦好不好長安什麼時候可以看到這個預告"},{"start":6478.857,"end":6506.569,"text":"原來的意思是整個法已經預告然後也送到行政院再審你們還在協商嘛對不對你協商的結果什麼時候出來這個部分我們當然會會盡快一個月兩個月因為這個不愛做反而這個會比較有共識有共識的可以他不只是不愛做嘛對不對那我現在講的是這個法你什麼時候大概還要多久"},{"start":6508.683,"end":6515.773,"text":"才可以弄出來?一個月?兩個月?三個月?這個...可能我們會跟行政院盡量來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來..."},{"start":6524.669,"end":6544.759,"text":"我們把過去這段時間的努力寫報告給委員好了那部長我再請教80歲以上請外籍看護免巴士量表的這個部分勞動部洪森案部長說難度相當高要跨部會整合那我想請教部長需要衛福部配合的有哪些"},{"start":6547.749,"end":6559.752,"text":"非常感謝委員 其實跟委員報告我們為了這個事情 部長特別指定我跟勞動部的一位次長我們三位次長 我們到目前為止已經開了四次會議"},{"start":6567.334,"end":6590.923,"text":"我現在就講說他要你們配合的 要修正的朋友 主要大概就是說我們有關於有關於這一個八四兩表他如果到時候他如果免評那可是這裡面可能還是有一些相關的一些部分我們會委託各地方政府他有一個整個照管中心照管中心這邊來做這個協助他項目開了很多嗎 他配合的有哪些 他要你們配合的"},{"start":6591.523,"end":6615.667,"text":"我們這邊主要大概就是 那你完成了多少好了包委我們現在目前最主要就是說資訊系統的一個借接然後到時候就是說有的案件有案件進來的話我也這邊要非常感謝勞動部這邊他們這邊在人力的部分給我們我現在就是就責任就是說他現在你的部分我要問你說我們衛福部現在自己已經跟他該你們處理的你們完成了多少"},{"start":6616.813,"end":6632.021,"text":"我們現在目前就是已經根據這一個雙次長會議我們現在目前來督導然後勞動部就是有關於發展署這邊還有我們這邊因為7月底就要實施了所以我要問的是如果你們完成了所以衛福部就會在這個未來如果出問題當然責任就是在勞動部"},{"start":6638.524,"end":6653.241,"text":"對不對你們到時候不要互踢皮球我希望你們把你們自己該做的事情趕快完成當然當然把這個責任釐清不要說到時候是你們在你們在背這個黑鍋不會啦我們兩部都是大家都同力合作我想那個大家都一體都希望大家趕快合作啦因為時間也不多是是是沒錯"},{"start":6655.484,"end":6677.29,"text":"那另外最後一個我在請教部長這個2024年全台有大概4,062人自殺死亡那自殺重登十大死因的榜單那根據WHO跟台灣醫學研究資料每完成一次自殺背後平均大概有10到20次的自殺未遂所以也就是說這個"},{"start":6678.03,"end":6695.603,"text":"去推算去年台灣大概有6萬到8萬人次去做這個自殺的這個動作那這幾年都是慢慢的在增加那這麼龐大的潛在的高風險族群我們政府目前用什麼樣的方式追蹤或是輔導"},{"start":6697.743,"end":6725.414,"text":"我想早期發這個我剛剛有報告過這個自殺的方式必須要多元化那自殺之前基本上很有憂鬱的人都很多所以我們我們有沒有實時介入有沒有去關心我們推動的自殺防治計畫裡面這些都有在做那這幾個學會也很努力在進行那為什麼今年是因為過去把COVID原來在裡面跳出實名以後"},{"start":6726.174,"end":6741.669,"text":"變成第十一名的自殺我們現在不講排名啦不講排名但是他這個數字是確實存在的對吧那為什麼我們的數字沒辦法往下降這才是重點不是他排名第幾名的問題"},{"start":6743.557,"end":6761.406,"text":"對 我想這個是整個不管是醫學界社會界的一個共同要努力的問題部長你接下來你認為面對這樣的數字一直攀高那你的態度是什麼我覺得這個要結合各部會各相關部會不管是從學校 職場還有社會對這個相關"},{"start":6768.55,"end":6789.628,"text":"憂鬱症方面的看待等等的整體來改善還有就是說早期的detect 早期的偵訪也很重要我們過去在10年前為什麼要退出其實我們在我們訓練很多自殺的守門員在譬如說在那個7-11只要有一個人進來現在也不是烤肉的季節齁"},{"start":6790.669,"end":6818.383,"text":"那個為什麼來買碳這個對啦這個我跟你講部長這個當然會去自殺他當然有很多很多的原因那當然我們能夠把這個球接住當然是就能拯救一個家庭我們一定要接住每一個球所以我的意思是說政府之前做的這些東西顯然是不夠的顯然是不夠的或者是沒有落實那如果沒有落實我們怎麼樣讓它落實改進那麼如果做得不足"},{"start":6818.843,"end":6820.993,"text":"我們是不是要提出新的辦法來解決這個問題是的"},{"start":6823.267,"end":6848.332,"text":"這個如果是舊問題我們要提出更好的辦法新的問題我們要提出具體的一個辦法來解決對啦 全端的防禦跟具體的心理衛生的輔導介入我覺得非常有必要啦當然我希望這個部裡面能夠認真看待這個事情非常非常認真然後呢 盡快的把這個新的措施把它擬定這樣好不好好的 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":6852.216,"end":6863.322,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那委員會再跟報告我們待蘇軍演招的宣達結束之後才休息 再休息那接下來請王育民委員來做宣達好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長來 請部長"},{"start":6879.756,"end":6900.636,"text":"今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張"},{"start":6901.937,"end":6931.252,"text":"但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人"},{"start":6931.832,"end":6951.308,"text":"他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14%"},{"start":6952.609,"end":6981.491,"text":"它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個會不會要怎麼樣來因應好 謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都在努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意"},{"start":6982.051,"end":6997.444,"text":"希望想要在家裡就好好在家裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實因為我過去在東京大學就"},{"start":6998.064,"end":7012.38,"text":"在做論文就是做這一方面如果你再問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強"},{"start":7013.101,"end":7027.89,"text":"是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員"},{"start":7028.57,"end":7052.951,"text":"他的人力可不可以增加的部分那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題"},{"start":7053.832,"end":7082.275,"text":"其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人就沒有人就不會開出量所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給他更多的量能跟更努力那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們"},{"start":7084.157,"end":7095.673,"text":"人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想陳路委員剛剛所說的這張圖那我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間"},{"start":7098.777,"end":7113.482,"text":"因為要輪班那老實說我們本國的居扶員老實說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南 新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生"},{"start":7115.503,"end":7144.282,"text":"不是 引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得Permanent State就是那個擁有居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好 我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這一部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少"},{"start":7144.642,"end":7151.225,"text":"報告委員我們在去年已經在府營科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個紅光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個"},{"start":7173.377,"end":7177.659,"text":"對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓"},{"start":7195.226,"end":7212.328,"text":"你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的"},{"start":7213.77,"end":7228.805,"text":"這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已"},{"start":7234.23,"end":7255.463,"text":"比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的"},{"start":7255.823,"end":7282.962,"text":"因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布"},{"start":7283.542,"end":7309.151,"text":"因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家 無論是社區 無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源"},{"start":7311.906,"end":7326.175,"text":"我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一。"},{"start":7326.935,"end":7351.675,"text":"那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點"},{"start":7352.876,"end":7374.606,"text":"你不曉得理事有沒有要補充 簡單補充一下我那個三點補充第一個就是說就是供給我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是他的品質提升包括他感染管控還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助來強化他們的這個造福員他們的這個留任意願"},{"start":7380.228,"end":7384.271,"text":"那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造輔員他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助"},{"start":7398.8,"end":7425.426,"text":"我是希望你們這一塊要持續去強化然後最後我要講的就是如果你3.0然後你很多還要繼續往上加服務還要增加然後你的支持要增加我必須坦白告訴衛福部你的錢是不夠的你在114年你的基金來源跟基金用途其實已經呈現了短處的一個情況那其實很多專家學者已經預估過以台灣現在我們的高齡化的情況"},{"start":7428.888,"end":7453.809,"text":"你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降"},{"start":7454.5,"end":7481.577,"text":"那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情"},{"start":7483.738,"end":7486.439,"text":"我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有"},{"start":7505.492,"end":7526.176,"text":"基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系"},{"start":7530.342,"end":7543.951,"text":"我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來研議怎麼做是最好的好不好好的好的好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王以為謝謝部長次長來繼續我們請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席請邱部長"},{"start":7565.256,"end":7568.647,"text":"委員好 部長好 稍等一下PowerPoint"},{"start":7572.898,"end":7598.506,"text":"部長這個障礙團體其實曾經跟我反映過出門像出國吃飯像打仗那我想這兩句話是顯示障礙者在台灣生存的生活的困難那也更有重度障礙者例如說為了申請自立生活核定時數不足的問題而打贏行政訴訟的這個欲解因為政府核定給他的時數根本不足夠"},{"start":7599.486,"end":7621.534,"text":"所以像玉姐這樣的障礙者根本不是在過生活而是連生存啊都很辛苦很困難所以我想部長你知道連生存都有困難是什麼感覺嗎部長根據我們聯合國的身心障礙者的權利公約CRPD的第19條B款是這個等第5號的一般性意見書"},{"start":7622.854,"end":7646.643,"text":"個人協助是障礙者自立生活與社區融入的重要條件那為了讓身心障礙者能夠使用各種居家住所及其他的社區支持的服務包含必要的個人協助以及支持以支持社區生活跟融入避免跟社區隔離其實許多國家有不同的立法形式有些是定立專法"},{"start":7647.443,"end":7672.72,"text":"那有些在障礙者相關的法律中列為專章那有些可能是專條但是我國這項制度僅是以授權命令訂定的子辦法那在法律層層級跟這個規範的密度上都相對落後部長我們既然自稱是一個很注重人權的人權大國難道我們不該至少以專章或專條的形式來符合CRPD嗎"},{"start":7675.852,"end":7695.96,"text":"我想謝謝委員的指教回應身心障礙這裡有各國的比較自立生活及融入社區的精神這個的確是非常需要而且也是我們在努力的目標我們現行的個人助理的實施其實是有依照"},{"start":7696.68,"end":7722.648,"text":"我們身心者自立生活目標跟自立生活計畫在提供啦我大概都猜到你的講法啦那部長沒關係國際上已經有早已經這個邁向去機構化嘛對不對社會主流是回歸社區融入社區要促成自立生活需要很多的制度的配合那例如什麼無障礙同用設計等等但是個人協助制度其實是其中最關鍵的機制"},{"start":7723.968,"end":7733.233,"text":"那跨國的研究也已經證實所以個人助理立法不僅是影響社會的平等更攸關障礙者的健康跟福祉"},{"start":7734.661,"end":7758.972,"text":"所以研究也顯示社會平等對於這個障礙者的健康福祉有正面影響但這種效果只存在於有個人助理立法的國家然而今天我們的報告裡面的第12頁卻說這個委員提案的專章或者是專條內容多屬於執行面的規定建議無需納入本法請問部長這是否代表衛福部反對這項立法呢"},{"start":7761.912,"end":7777.658,"text":"我們其實是那個一個目標我們可以用多元性或者是其他的方式來達到那可能在最沒有爭議的情況之下為了這個像您提的這個議題"},{"start":7780.499,"end":7796.103,"text":"其實在兩年前也同樣 我當召委的時候就是聯繫可能兩天後 大家討論到各方的意見所以那件事情連Priority Shed都停下來所以我想怎麼樣取得大家的共識 我們完全是站在"},{"start":7798.604,"end":7818.509,"text":"達到這個身心障礙權力公約的目標來努力但是這過程怎麼樣大家能夠接受我們雖然不是這個聯合國的會員國但是透過這個施行法將國際公約納入我們台灣的法制其實政府也應該遵守相關的義務那其實2017年和2022年的時候我們兩度邀請了國際審查委員來台審查這個CRPD的執行情況那審查委員也兩度"},{"start":7826.892,"end":7843.701,"text":"針對個人助理的制度提出改進建議喔那然而從2017年到我們2025年喔除了2023年的時候將個人助理的時薪從200元提升到250元以外我國好像並沒有其他明顯的進展那從數據上來看呢我們全國"},{"start":7846.643,"end":7872.814,"text":"各住的人數從2022年的625人到2023年雖然增加至大概748人但去年又下降到733人顯現是沒有大幅的增長所以這說明單純只是提高時薪並不足以吸引人投入各住的工作所以既然如此我們是不是應該比照長照制度以專法或專章的方式來建立完整的個人助理制度呢"},{"start":7874.551,"end":7899.869,"text":"再者部長我想你最清楚你剛剛講了你最清楚這個這件事情來龍去脈但是其實各障礙團體也在前年就達成共識這個從帳蒙在2023年的9月發出支持修法也支持個人各駐入法的這個公告就可以看出來不是嗎所以你剛剛說有很多的這個不同的意見我想這個部分大家應該是已經有共識"},{"start":7901.07,"end":7929.786,"text":"所以最後部長你知道你們民進黨不分區排名第18位的這個重度身障者陳俊漢律師生前最關心的也是這個條文嗎那上一屆其實已經延宕修法那這一屆初期呢我們可以看到我們前行政院長陳建仁也承諾說要在去年五月五月前提出生權法的修法版本但是現在已經又過了一年半了請問行政院的版本到底在哪裡"},{"start":7930.726,"end":7952.893,"text":"那今天送來的報告是否要否定這個你們的同仁同志陳俊安律師的遺願衛福部真的要無視我們國際的趨勢漠視障礙團體的需求甚至背離自己的同志嗎所以部長這個議題啊因為時間有限我等一下還要放個影片這一題是關係到障礙者的生存不只是這個生活品質的問題讓每個人都有"},{"start":7954.674,"end":7981.289,"text":"尊嚴的活著是我們國家最基本對他們的義務也是基本的人權那接下來我要放一個影片是獲得當事人同意的訪談紀錄喔是我們辦公室同仁去訪問的這是重度障礙者我剛剛前面提到御解的故事喔所以我希望看完這個喔部長要發揮人機幾機的精神然後希望部長不要忘記衛福部對於全國人民福祉跟維護基本人權的權責的所在"},{"start":7981.869,"end":7996.745,"text":"好,那請大家看一下這段影片,就是郁姐的影片。好,謝謝。林俊,剛才給你的時數,就您目前的狀況,您覺得夠嗎?到目前政府合格給我的時數,我一定可以使用的時數是8個小時,早上2個小時,大夜是6小時。"},{"start":7997.205,"end":8018.09,"text":"一共8小时我觉得实处是非常不足的用上我觉得最大的困扰是说如果是这样使用的话大页有但是小页没有的话我必须有五六个钟头六个钟头我都没有人力的资源可能对我的生活造成困扰我可能会就是歪倒或者是我身体的功能性慢慢的萎缩或者配化我就支持不了长时住的没有人力的状况之下"},{"start":8019.071,"end":8041.131,"text":"那我必须可能还是要有人力协助我但是这样不会动用到两个服务单位一个是警方的警力还有救护车来协助我把我扶起来就是说能够摆位好让我坐定位那我觉得我是不能用这两个资源来协助我因为他们很辛苦我是他们职场范围之内但是因为我没有人力因为这时数实在不够的话情况之下不得已"},{"start":8041.511,"end":8066.092,"text":"被迫了才動用到警官的警慮跟支付車的協助但是這個長此以往對於大家都造成困擾用對於社會資源也不能是這樣的使用這是不合理的一個情況所以可能政府在這方面也要考慮到這是重度障礙者的一個使用的時間人力資源的安配不能多增加一些時間性跟我的人力資源的話可以提供我的生活照顧政府資源的措施才會讓社會落實"},{"start":8068.113,"end":8091.236,"text":"理论上政府应该是要把这个资源去做一个公平的分配才能达出一个平衡因为我想如果受伤的时间可能针对于重新评估但是这个要针对于需求来评估而不是说一天以8个小时这就是合可给我的一个实书的一个认定但是我觉得这个对我来说没有针对真正的我来做需求评估那我需求就是说如果夜间有再多3个小时"},{"start":8091.676,"end":8106.296,"text":"到4個小時我就可以很好的生活狀態就至少不用再去動用警察跟救護車這兩個單位實在是太辛苦他們了他們不是職長範圍之內的我覺得針對於需求上可以讓政府知道我們重度障礙者能夠有"},{"start":8106.656,"end":8123.592,"text":"他們的一個需求那如果像我這邊比如說一三五我能夠有大夜班二十六日我就沒有我一天可以睡覺一天不要睡覺這個不是我所期待的因為其實健康的人每天都要睡眠所以一天可能至少要八個小時沒有八個小時要六個小時可是如果小夜也沒有大夜也沒有可是要經過這麼多時間的話"},{"start":8125.171,"end":8143.418,"text":"在我生活上非常有困難就是連睡覺這樣的一個基本的生理需求都是一種奢求了對一個奢求了我晚上這樣撐不了那麼久啊我如果這個姿勢如果撐的話手會麻會痠就你之前就是一三五有特助晚上大夜然後二四六就沒了就是我們剛才講的就是一天八小時的狀況稍微再低補一些時間這樣子"},{"start":8144.278,"end":8163.94,"text":"那孟小夜前街上你看六個小時這六個小時很困難就是說趙復原是五點開到晚上十一點才有人進來這幾個小時當中如果我還是這樣撐著撐不了多久那我如果倒了會怎樣我會不會也不才能夠請一個救護車或警方自己解決我趕快把我扶起來因為就是讓我很困難的地方"},{"start":8165.041,"end":8181.676,"text":"所以他們在需求評估上面這段也沒有去落實就是針對每一個障礙者他們真正的需求是什麼像你的個案就是很清楚就是你明明有這個需求但是他們就只願意給一天半小時一天半小時對啊 那就不叫需求評估啦那就是定額感我們總計大概一天至少要14個小時"},{"start":8182.496,"end":8200.48,"text":"比如说如果早上两个小时因为早上两个小时是我的空间时感对外的联系会很重要比如说早上关部门啊不管是社会履历 卫生局员 操造员那个人比如说沿路督导 沿路造福员比如说他请假 有没有人带班这也是我要联系的 对不对我身边有人说"},{"start":8200.72,"end":8223.007,"text":"跟我讲我下个礼拜三要请假可是我要预先跟督导预约在这边实践代班有时候督导也很忙所以那不可能晚上联系晚上我也没这个时间联系公部门很多不单位白天都在上班我如果跟社会局联络跟医院联络现在个人助理医院承揽我如果跟督导说督导我这个礼拜几我的各组"},{"start":8223.467,"end":8247.571,"text":"他要請假那我有沒有人可以來做代班這個我都要聯繫這個兩個小時的黃金時段那我找這個電話一定要有人所以這個不能少然後但是晚上的時間就是六個小時那小夜班又沒有了如果是以六個小時小夜班就沒有了所以世界上不足啊嚴重的不足可是針對需求好像他沒有針對真實的我來做安排預算有限都是用這一句話沒辦法的"},{"start":8247.971,"end":8277.065,"text":"这个我们来努力预算有限但是要精准的分配把它分配到有需要的中群上面这个就是比较困难的我还是希望有个度啊那赵福元是就是已经时间性了已经在这边用项目制了现在觉得个度很像长到1.0的一个服务我就觉得好温馨还是时数不够还是时数不够然后人数可能就是那个个度的目前能力还是不够还是不够对对对这个我们还要再努力因为时间性了时间后来时数增加能力可以再多配置对还是可以"},{"start":8280.725,"end":8306.498,"text":"部長就是給你看這影片就是希望這個我們為政者是明知所欲藏在我心你要看到他真實的需求不是用很多的理由或者是說時間要演繹在更多的共識來拖延我覺得這個就是希望部長可以看到如果你有需要的話我這影片再提供給你希望你們可以就是真正理解到他們的需求然後盡速的解決好不好好 非常謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":8309.78,"end":8312.781,"text":"那個李次輝回應一下吧我後面講三點啦非常感謝委員的關心但是玉潔那個小姐我跟洪森漢之前洪委員我已經去新莊看過他兩次我們會弄一個示範方案在第一點第二點"},{"start":8327.768,"end":8330.97,"text":"市長剛剛他裡面有講到這個長照部分算是項目制嘛那他各住有很多東西是他真的需要他個人的需求"},{"start":8349.341,"end":8364.044,"text":"譬如說你說這個長照制度他來可能洗頭洗完頭就其他事不能做吃完飯其他事不能做那他還是需要有各住的部分所以我想我後面這個我是不太能接受但你第一點說有一個這個事辦方案"},{"start":8364.804,"end":8384.56,"text":"這可能要拜託呂次 你看這個究竟要怎麼處理我們已經跟那個郁潔小姐 已經跟她在弄這個示範方案那現在的狀況就是 跟新北市政府我們共同合作對 那希望說這個東西 因為不只是郁潔一個人是重度障礙者所以拜託這個我們部長和次長可以持續的努力謝謝 一起加油"},{"start":8388.082,"end":8409.737,"text":"好,謝謝廖蔣委員的詢問,要請蘇趙耀之,還是要提醒衛福部今天很多我已經提出各處的問題,還有自治生活的問題,剛剛這個影片是還有可以申請到8小時就我的理解資料裡面,平均到8小時幾乎其為,應該是平均是低於8小時"},{"start":8411.019,"end":8436.959,"text":"我相信應不應該很清楚啦所以我是覺得我們不要再有這種執行上的應該沒有自然燃省的問題啦但是不要有評估障礙核可障礙執行障礙的問題這個等一下應該還有其他委員會討論到那最主要我還是希望今天委員會可以回應到這些聲音障礙者朋友在今天開記者會事實上的一些內容這個內容是不是"},{"start":8437.799,"end":8443.182,"text":"衛福部有相關的一些盲點,到現在還沒有做處理來,請蘇召委謝謝主席,我請部長跟次長"},{"start":8464.57,"end":8490.139,"text":"今天這簡單要用兩條而已嘛第一條就是平健制度的老人福利法48條另外一個是實境障礙者保障法53條就是不愛做早上聽我很詳細的聽每一位委員部長本身也當過召委都知道我先問你老了你會想住安養院嗎"},{"start":8492.62,"end":8513.815,"text":"市長你有想要大嗎?我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大"},{"start":8521.826,"end":8539.802,"text":"日本跟我們比較貼切,所以日本這個制度比較貼切,那北歐那邊,那是看鬆的而已,因為那是要踏太多的。我跟部長講,我們看了日本,名古屋到處看,也跟他們詳細討論,"},{"start":8543.457,"end":8569.951,"text":"現在日本的安養院像我們去看八王子區啦看哪裡齁有其中一家就是差不多差不多來得蠻溫馨的啦硬體設備也不錯他們的私人房他們借物保險在我看的時候就已經一年借物保險的費用就十兆日幣十兆日幣喔這核台幣也這麼多"},{"start":8571.97,"end":8597.903,"text":"那日本政府挨挨救啊從安倍的時代就想把介護保險跟醫療保險把它mix在一起結果搞到現在好像也沒有,還是分開吼那是怎樣?你覺得有什麼原因?因為兩個姓氏不一樣嘛那他們的四人房,四人房的差不多我看那間是他的床位有370幾床然後有一個醫師"},{"start":8599.386,"end":8625.98,"text":"有一個醫師喔 退休的醫師就來那邊當院民甚至說要當住院的醫生那他住不用錢 還可以拿一點薪水 要退一萬嘛那裡面的護理師也是一樣退休之後就住在那邊當院民 要順便當護理師我覺得這個很好 這個老的 照顧更老的我們現在就是在推這個嘛 儲存時數等等 都可以"},{"start":8629.203,"end":8641.752,"text":"這裏的護理師老,就直接做,做到不做,我覺得這樣很好,我們大陸可能搞不好會這樣啦,我也要把我們屏東那裏的護理師,或是醫生、衛生所退休,我說你們要怎麼辦?公共醫師會遵守H65,所以退休,隔天就在我們法人上班了。"},{"start":8650.253,"end":8677.615,"text":"那護理師也是一樣的退休之後就在那邊有的當志工有的當那個在廠商那邊做我覺得不然的話你找不到人啊所以不然這個是可以考量的那他們的四人房一年的一個月差不多合台幣差不多三萬六三萬七差不多啊 差不多啊那兩人房差不多五萬二左右我都講台幣喔那單人房"},{"start":8679.18,"end":8706.906,"text":"7萬多塊那政府付的差不多3萬多塊這樣如果去看歐洲不可能的事情我跟你講喔赫爾辛基在芬蘭啊我們去看還有去那個那個瑞典瑞典首都那個叫什麼斯德哥摩你知道那個安養院安養院喔他一個月政府付給那個業者一個月一個人付差不多24萬台幣"},{"start":8709.606,"end":8723.08,"text":"一個月喔然後如果是精神科的熱心後面處理是這樣一個月付三十五萬台幣給吼 我說我們的安養機構如果一個月付二十五萬我大家都叫爸爸大家都這樣吼"},{"start":8726.161,"end":8744.811,"text":"不可能我們付不起嘛,因為所得稅60%所得稅所以我們要去學費,那個是亂搞啦,不要講那個那現在回到日本這邊他的住宿機構提供的房數也差不多三成而已那間三百多層的安養機構外面白堆買一百,八百多"},{"start":8755.025,"end":8776.53,"text":"死一個補一個,死一個補一個所以人家老人,我在民國有看,都在家比較多因為冬天他們要冷,那他們的日本人的習性跟我們台灣人又不太一樣台灣人的嘻嘻嘩嘩,老人說我唱歌跳舞,我們可以唱什麼,可不可以不失智啊,對不對?那不是啊,都一口吞吞大嘴,看電視死在家裡面,五天,沒人知道"},{"start":8781.863,"end":8802.312,"text":"所以他們的社工雜貨都常常在客廳而已,他們都外面不會出來,所以他們的時薪可能跟沒有一樣所以長壽,然後又不喜歡出來,又天氣又冷所以我們台灣這個是蠻適合的,我們老人會要叫他們出來啊,我覺得那個都非常好但是呢,我們的長照機構,大陸人第一次一個月補六千、八千、補一萬嘛,一萬,現在一萬嗎?"},{"start":8807.54,"end":8831.96,"text":"要一個要三萬多塊你補一萬所以你們的費用是遠遠不足啦所以坦白說王一鳴在說你現在那個規模是太少了啦所以如果長照保險在第八屆我們我跟那個劉建國王一鳴我們都努力過但是那個時候有反對所以那個推不過那現在應該如果他的規模越來越長到3.0"},{"start":8834.242,"end":8849.573,"text":"規模越大事實上是要考量今天這個老人福利法這個評鑑制度因為很多人陳情我想每個人都談過了我也在開過協調會醫院評鑑以前也是優等特優、優等、合格、不合格"},{"start":8857.791,"end":8868.93,"text":"是對嘛不然就改成合格不合格這樣這樣比較簡單啦是是是你常常在這裡有時候要吃餅乾又又等那個是以前啦那個改"},{"start":8871.155,"end":8898.03,"text":"該換 護理事項的評鑑也是用合格不合格還是兩套標準現在是怎樣 市長感受一下那位委員報告 我也知道現在大家都覺得說這樣一國多製 我也委員報告所以我們現在提出來就是說我們現在就是全部一致就把它區分成合格跟不合格我們就不區分什麼甲乙丙丁我們就是在這個部分我們來來朝這個方 我們就是確定啦"},{"start":8898.69,"end":8899.77,"text":"確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦"},{"start":8920.055,"end":8928.081,"text":"這以前我們在布衛生,我們是10%一個車廂裡面10%,現在不然又提高到20%15%喔?我每天在坐高鐵,我每天通勤那個高鐵剛才沒人坐,沒有我做的東西沒人坐我每天拍攝就去坐所以有時候年輕人坐在裡面,老的來,他老不要老,要幫忙怎麼樣"},{"start":8946.775,"end":8964.795,"text":"常常看到糾紛,所以你現在該做什麼?Priority Seat,優先洗優先洗,就是說反應的什麼都可以嘛就是說有需要的啦,按照有需要的有的人表面上看好其實他是生病的啦,會有慢性病的"},{"start":8968.118,"end":8992.711,"text":"主席不要煩惱,今天這兩條簡單啦其他的國陸國屬要親也有什麼請助理請什麼,那比較可憐啦那要花錢啦,市長沒有,那要花很多錢我們會站在人民的需求上為最高點然後整個國家的一個財政...你現在住在那個機構安養的,現在有10萬床"},{"start":8995.692,"end":9000.413,"text":"那十萬床如果一個月補一萬塊,現在如果叫你補兩萬塊,你就倒了就幾十億了,一百億就倒了所以我們要量力而為啦好,最後一個問題我要問你,那個失智現在這兩天有夠嚴重,我自己的表姐、三個,很多都一直下去現在65歲,醫生失智的說有35萬人"},{"start":9021.858,"end":9040.405,"text":"65%是PRECINE、DEMENTIA那超過了,你覺得?我65%就對了15%?量於你來回答,你精神科量於精神科醫師我們早期15%,所以委員關心的是失智症的新藥液體"},{"start":9041.55,"end":9049.953,"text":"65歲以上比較Dementia那65歲以下Prescina我講的這樣沒錯吧Prescina有多少人這裡35萬 這裡呢跟65歲以上比起來大概15-20%以台灣的數據所以就是35萬的話就乘以15-20%所以早發性的差不多也有七八萬人"},{"start":9068.26,"end":9073.126,"text":"那是很多那你現在這個藥用打的開始打了這個藥是用每個禮拜打還是怎樣"},{"start":9077.015,"end":9104.859,"text":"跟委員報告這個藥在美國是去年7月才上市那目前是這個我都在做精準的評估那台灣大概是今天在亞東醫院會開打還是用自費來做那它是需要在市製證的非常早期這是第一個條件第二個條件是說它的那個Apple E4必須要陰性因為如果是Apple E陽性的話它比較容易腦水腫那第三個部分是財務評估我們時事處長已經對外講了所以這個部分要啟動這個HTA來做評估那是每個月打一次還是"},{"start":9105.419,"end":9126.116,"text":"目前有兩個藥提出申請因為我不能透露是哪個藥那其中一種藥是每個月打那後續還要追蹤MRI看他那個Amyloid的這個Plague他有沒有清楚就是那個類蛋白的這個堆積有沒有清楚以上沒有清楚所以有的一個月打一次有的是打一次動一天的藥有兩週的有一個月的但是因為我"},{"start":9135.614,"end":9147.961,"text":"因為我不能透露是哪一個有申請 抱歉沒關係啦 我們人苦事人要做我覺得我在看我們這些親戚還有我們看到這個林院長林院長第八屆的時候站在那邊被質詢"},{"start":9149.538,"end":9155.183,"text":"我就看他比較內向,跟他很熟,你也很認識林智英我更認識,我也認識,林智英就比較厲害林昊義是點柱柱,所以我覺得內向的人精神跟內向的人比較會對,點柱柱的人"},{"start":9167.142,"end":9194.29,"text":"每天花謝罵人的我看待會兒目前的研究人格特質跟失智症的發生比較沒有關係跟基因跟環境後天生活習慣關係性比較大以上補充所以是類蛋白的堆積AMLOID的堆積在涅涅的地方是不是目前兩個學理論一個是AMLOID的堆積就類蛋白另外一個是Tau protein的堆積那目前兩個理論都有在用兩個都有藥物研發以上"},{"start":9194.81,"end":9222.232,"text":"所以你這個藥是要清除那個類蛋白在腦部的堆積,現在是這樣嗎?是所以,好,那要做基因的類型什麼藥嗎?是,要做基因的檢測主要是為了副作用,擔心它這個藥物引起的腦衰腫那目前美國研究是有33%所以排除了那個相關的基因型,它腦衰腫的副作用會比較小主要是為了病人安全,以上補充所以我覺得每一個人都要保持頭腦動一動"},{"start":9224.438,"end":9249.196,"text":"打麻將啦,找人吵架啦,這個也是有效所以補丁我現在每天找你學妹,你就不會好歹啦這個很嚴重,我覺得非常非常嚴重,太多啦有的是輕輕的,有的是越來越嚴重所以看了都很怕,所以這個要出來真的是福音啦智慧,健保不給物,補丁"},{"start":9251.067,"end":9273.797,"text":"首先我們要評估他本土的資料,這個也很重要,我想因為我們要驗證他的效果然後再評估一個財務的benefit跟burden這樣子,就是利弊得失那我覺得照顧失智我們要多元化,老金要多動多運動,瘦薄一點,營養金衡"},{"start":9279.745,"end":9289.476,"text":"可能這個都是可以預防的那政府在這個部分不管是在工廠中心據點那這個部分都有都已經有準備其實單一尊"},{"start":9290.731,"end":9318.344,"text":"你做專研會 意思說專研會是我們辦很多長照的開始訓練訓練所以那個時候的題目就叫做失智的一個計畫表示一日十當前我們就有在關心未來的這個照顧但是那是後面我個人覺得怎麼樣早期來診斷 早期來預防可能也是一個重點 跟周圍的意見一樣好 我們大家一起努力啦 謝謝感謝 謝謝"},{"start":9323.419,"end":9348.648,"text":"好,謝謝蘇昭偉講的話,所謂造成內向的人心裡恐慌還有副署長有即時的一個...那你不會啦,副署長剛剛有解釋的,跟個性無關各處跟蘇昭偉報告一下,各處不是沒有經會,而且已經執行一段時間了其實是他在,剛剛特別講到,是他在評估何可還有執行面對相關的一些問題"},{"start":9350.536,"end":9352.686,"text":"各位不是沒錢的,回來休息十分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":9359.853,"end":9359.873,"text":"阿諾"},{"start":10085.404,"end":10088.265,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請黃秀環委員來做詢答謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請邱部長委員好"},{"start":10102.486,"end":10131.533,"text":"部長好 部長我先就今天這個要修這個老人福利法第48條的條文修正草案的部分那我記得在去年的時候我有邀請這個呂次長到地方跟所有的住宿機構大家做一個這個協調因為我們知道就是說我們所有的老人福利機構他的評鑑是原本是有分那個等地就是甲乙丙丁那"},{"start":10133.653,"end":10157.96,"text":"這個那一般的這個長照機構的評鑑是用這個合格跟不合格那會造成我們所有住宿機構的一些困擾那當時地方的這些機構他們認為就是說所有的這個住宿機構各類的住宿機構的評鑑應該是要一致所以我們看到就是說衛福部在這一次有提出來就是"},{"start":10158.6,"end":10175.589,"text":"有關這個老人福利法第48條的一個修正草案那我們是樂見因為你們已經提出來那另外就是說在這個法還沒有未來通過之前可能會有一個過渡期那像這樣子的話你們會有什麼樣的因應措施"},{"start":10181.248,"end":10200.286,"text":"主席 還有非常感謝委員對於這個議題的關心我也記得是我們典禮 那個委員會非常關心我們的長照尤其我們的老人福利機構還有各項機構有相關的品質提升然後裡面委員 就是機構他們那邊有提出就是說這裡面是不是可以把它簡化"},{"start":10201.747,"end":10217.756,"text":"我們護理之家嘛還有其他我們現在那個常夫法那邊全部都是合格不合格那唯獨只有我們這個老人福利法我們老人福利機構這邊還有加一餅丁嘛那我們現在目前就是從善如流就是按照我們那個委員上次的建議還有我們就把它簡化"},{"start":10218.436,"end":10225.02,"text":"然後讓這一個我們的這個機構可以專心來照顧我們的這一個長輩這第一點第二點我們現在目前在整個這個還是要這個整個通過還是要在這個大院這邊來來預修正合併來通過那麼在這之前我們就是來會來輔導那個各地方的業者來進化來盡量我想這個相關的評鑑的一個部分我們朝簡化的方面來輔導他們"},{"start":10248.396,"end":10272.177,"text":"是以上謝謝好我們希望就是說我們這些老人福利機構他應該是把精神全部就是集中在照顧我們的長輩或照顧這些住民那這個評鑑的部分我覺得應該是簡化我覺得這應該是大家的一個共識那也非常感謝衛福部真的是從山如流那接下來我想請教部長就是"},{"start":10273.198,"end":10289.915,"text":"我們今天有關這個生權法的部分在前一陣子這個媒體上面都會有講到這個不論是公車啦捷運啦或者是我們的這個鐵路也許都會有這個優先席或者我們講的博愛座啦那後來我們認為就是說這個博愛座應該要有一些調整因為讓"},{"start":10296.421,"end":10321.057,"text":"有需要的人來使用這個我覺得這個應該是大家的共識那我看到就是說衛福部這邊因為我們沒有看到衛福部這邊的版本可是委員的版本就是說博愛座改為優先席那博愛座改為優先席你們的我是覺得應該跟博愛座或改成優先席我是覺得都差不了多少啦"},{"start":10321.897,"end":10350.386,"text":"那我想聽聽衛福部這邊為什麼你們會同意就是說博愛座改為優先席那你們認為說這個預期的效果會是怎樣是的 因為博愛座這這麼多年來大家身跟地固的一個觀念就是老弱婦孺嘛所以才會引起可能有些人覺得我的像年輕人可能他生理期很不舒服這學生也很多啦 老實講"},{"start":10352.128,"end":10359.14,"text":"那也有一些真的身體不舒服的那這樣會引起紛爭當然我們希望"},{"start":10360.199,"end":10383.274,"text":"我們的社會永遠都是互相關懷互相支持但是給實際上需要的人這才是核心精神那我也看到就是說我們原本的博愛座底下也有這樣一行字就是說請優先禮讓座位給需要的旅客那可是我們現在還是會有一些爭議就是說我們在媒體上面也會看到很多也許長輩他覺得說這個博愛座應該是要優先禮讓給他"},{"start":10387.495,"end":10408.662,"text":"所以在這個幾次的我們看到就是在去年有一個民調就是說你認為博愛桌是不是要廢除那有63%的人覺得說應該要廢除那我們今天這個有關生權法的這個部分有特別委員部分委員有提出來那我想我最想要聽就是說"},{"start":10410.622,"end":10435.047,"text":"衛福部這邊會同意就是說有博愛座改為優先席那你們未預期的效果是會覺得說博愛座改成優先席大家看到這個優先席就會主動禮讓或者是也許會變成就像日本一樣他們現在也是用優先席啊可是他們還是有這樣的一個狀況出現啊就是說其他這個旁邊還有空位嗎那"},{"start":10437.551,"end":10444.045,"text":"這個應該是說喬治亞駐日的這個大使他因為自己在網路上面POPO就是說他做這個"},{"start":10446.204,"end":10466.298,"text":"這個捷運然後就是在上面可以很悠閒的看書可是就讓網友可能就直接對他的一些批評那我看到就是說這個上面他也是寫優先席那同樣也會有這樣的一個狀況所以我想請教就是說未來台灣如果由博愛座改為優先席的話部長你認為就是說會有這種被"},{"start":10469.821,"end":10476.19,"text":"被研上的這樣的一個狀況會減少嗎 或者是或者是你們認為要怎麼去做會更好第一個就是 謝謝委員關心指導這個議題 那"},{"start":10483.086,"end":10510.274,"text":"我想既然已經這個目標就是實際上需求者那這個部分可能對老人家會覺得根深蒂固的觀念這可能需要先導這個部分就是交通部會多元化來先導那當然這個是因為可能是沒有人做吧要多一點我覺得不要用這樣一張圖就來代表好像"},{"start":10511.154,"end":10525.946,"text":"他好像不懂不體貼這樣子當然是這樣子可是就是說很多可能也許網友或者是說其他的人可能對他有一些批評嘛我今天的這個議題我最主要想要問就是說原本我們博愛做"},{"start":10528.087,"end":10542.095,"text":"部分委員有提出來就是說改為優先席啦那衛福部這邊也寫說這個競表支持那我想聽的就是說衛福部你這邊認為不再做改為優先席就會有這樣的這種爭議的議題就會減少嗎"},{"start":10545.134,"end":10563.48,"text":"我相信如果宣導的好的話應該會減少爭議大家更能夠注意到其實各年齡層都有他需求的一面反而是會互相世代的一個互相照顧更加的促進世代的照顧應該是一個正向的方向"},{"start":10564.241,"end":10585.18,"text":"我不知道說部長在你年輕的時候也許在學校可能會有一些宣導就是說看到這個需要的人或者是老人家或者是孕婦或者是需要的人看到之後即使不是在博外做的話你也會禮讓也許在那個以前學校我不知道說部長有沒有這樣的經驗"},{"start":10588.202,"end":10605.866,"text":"現在我覺得說應該是讓所有的民眾有一個觀念不一定是要博愛座或是優先席只要是任何的一個位置在你的周邊的民眾有這個需要的話應該大家就是都要離讓我覺得應該要有這樣的一個觀念非常支持這樣的一個理念"},{"start":10608.047,"end":10636.942,"text":"而不是說你弄一個這個博愛座改為優先席會讓更多這個我是存疑啦大家可以討論啦另外就是說我們也在這一次就是說這個設置的比例不得低於原本就是說不得低於這個總座位數的比例15%那可能要增加到20%那我不知道說衛福部這邊的意見是怎樣"},{"start":10639.281,"end":10656.272,"text":"我們尊重交通部的...我們一直都是在這個部分都一直尊重交通部的規劃那交通部他們有沒有什麼樣的意見?交通部有沒有意見?交通部有來?可不可以...副市長喔?對副市長來"},{"start":10661.348,"end":10688.618,"text":"跟委員報告那其實就如董委員講的其實是優先洗的那個不愛做是給有需要的人來做那其實我們在我們覺得是重要的工作其實還是在於宣導所以其實數量其實我們一直覺得現在的食物其實已經不是問題啦就說大概也沒有所謂執行的摯愛其實在宣導工作其實我們是建議維持現行就好不需要再增加到百分之二十以上"},{"start":10690.019,"end":10711.494,"text":"其實我剛剛的一個意見就是應該是要讓所有的民眾知道就是說不一定是在這個博愛座改為優先席一旦是有民眾有這個需求的話即使他不是博愛座不是優先席的話你還是要離讓我覺得應該是要有這樣的一個觀念存在"},{"start":10712.174,"end":10735.48,"text":"要不然我今天如果再提一個我把這個總比例由15改為20或者是由15改為30甚至百分之百那我覺得這個應該也沒有多大的意義啦我覺得應該是讓需要的人都可以去做所有的位置而不是只是固定在這個博外座或者是優先席對我覺得這個優良的傳統應該是"},{"start":10738.41,"end":10756.423,"text":"要留著啦 因為這的確是會符合互相幫忙的一個所以不是說只有在不管是博愛 優先席所有的座位理論上看到需要的人如果你自己覺得你可以的話應該是讓座這樣子是一個很好的"},{"start":10757.304,"end":10775.528,"text":"好那我現在就是說希望衛福部或者是交通部這邊因為我也聽到就是在廣播上面他也就是也有在針對這個博愛做有做一些宣傳就是說禮讓給需要的人禮讓給需要的人所以就是不需要"},{"start":10776.008,"end":10797.202,"text":"特意去把這個名字不外做改為優先席其實我會存疑就是說你名字改完之後那後續還是會有一些爭議啦這個是我的意見所以我希望就是說衛福部應該你們自己要提出你們自己的一個未來要怎麼讓這樣的一個爭議減少而不是只是把名稱改掉而已"},{"start":10797.702,"end":10810.089,"text":"所以我想這個我們會持續來研究人的一個想法,譬如說如果你屈口這個就是有嫌疑這是我個人的看法,有嫌疑其他的就"},{"start":10811.246,"end":10837.999,"text":"就不用安心看書休息就不用因為有些人還是非常非常的善良擔心說有誰我沒有讓到位置我心裡不安那至少我們有一個優先席是給這些人其實這個部分也是有它的意義的存在當然普遍性盡量能夠讓給需要的人這不只在公車上在任何地方都是應該要互相幫忙"},{"start":10838.999,"end":10853.03,"text":"好,我們希望就是說,不是只是改名字而已啦,應該是要多宣傳,然後讓需要的人,不只是在這個優先席或博愛座,在其他的位置其實大家都可以這樣子,理讓給需要的人好的,是,謝謝,謝謝韋子市長"},{"start":10855.652,"end":10856.393,"text":"接下來請圖權紀委來做宣達"},{"start":10896.889,"end":10925.014,"text":"好謝謝主席那請我們邱部長還有我們長照師我們祝市長請邱部長跟祝市長委員好部長那今年農曆年因為我們有去桃園新屋小做手訪市順便找廠商去採購他們一些的小禮品那當然我們去現場遇到很多身心障礙的弱勢的族群"},{"start":10925.754,"end":10948.567,"text":"那也就是我們大家俗稱的喜憨兒也就是智能障礙者那今天我們就想說來討論一下當喜憨兒老了以後誰要來照顧他們這部分的問題那尤其喜憨兒他在生理跟認知功能上他的退化速度也比一般人快那"},{"start":10949.847,"end":10969.514,"text":"智能障礙者大概40歲以後大概就進入老化那比我們法定的65歲大概還要早20年那我們的制度如果用65歲才來進入服務進入的門檻等於說這個族群的人就錯過了大概20年的黃金照顧期"},{"start":10970.834,"end":10990.924,"text":"那我請問一下部長那針對我們有了解到像2022年教育部中度智能障礙者在臺灣大概有7萬人那2015到2025年我們看一下臺灣智能障礙者在機構照顧的比例部長大概知道這是多少嗎"},{"start":10992.23,"end":11012.532,"text":"我們機構照顧臺灣智能障礙者比例沒關係這上面有那我們據我們的資料顯示我們大概機構照顧的比例大概只有5%表示說他大部分照顧的主流還是要仰賴家庭來照顧那我們目前全臺身心障礙"},{"start":11013.553,"end":11034.156,"text":"福利機構我們查了一下大概有226家那從數據上顯示我們可以了解到其實我們機構明顯的不足那即便現在我們有推日間照顧及社區居住的替代服務這部分也在發展在推廣但是這個目前的規模我們看還是有限"},{"start":11035.057,"end":11058.474,"text":"那如果這些智能障礙者他到了40歲之後他還是要仰賴父母的照顧那我們想了解一下40歲以後他的父母親也老了那父母親也要人家照顧那這些智能障礙者自己也需要人照顧那我們這一部分我們衛福部有沒有什麼規劃來介入幫忙"},{"start":11059.383,"end":11088.416,"text":"好非常謝謝委員關心到這個非常重要而且我們可以慢慢形成一個很重要的必須要關注的問題我們最近到一些相關的機構去看的確也發現了這個相當重要的問題所以真的很感謝那我們在身心障礙者其實他是前領的前領的納入啦在長照2.0就已經把前領的納入所以基本上他"},{"start":11089.376,"end":11117.046,"text":"只要身心障礙者理論上都應該可以得到強照的沒有限制65歲的不是 可是我們剛剛有講你機構照顧的其實只有5%他其他的可以說95%還是仰賴家庭照顧那家庭照顧他到40歲以後其實整體我們智能障礙者他老化的速度比一般人還快你看他到40歲之後他父母親也老了那這一部分我們"},{"start":11118.587,"end":11137.606,"text":"機構只有照顧5%,那其他的部分,我們衛福部有沒有注意到這個問題?好,所以委員是不是這個部分我請社交使來幫忙,做代理市長。跟委員報告,我們現在在2014年到2017年有一個身心障礙者社區照顧服務的資源部件計畫,"},{"start":11138.647,"end":11157.114,"text":"那我們預期在14到17年我們會在社區去增加相關對於身障者的這些服務的據點那預計在到今年3月底至我們大概已經有1127個據點已經服務到2萬人左右那預計在到100我們的計畫啟程到117年會再增加695處據點可以再增加大概1萬零500人左右"},{"start":11169.163,"end":11171.437,"text":"大概會到三萬 接近三萬一千人"},{"start":11172.641,"end":11199.734,"text":"這是整個的 我們大概整個的對 剛剛我有講嘛因為我們現在日宣照顧跟社區居住替代服務我知道有逐漸在發展在推廣但是我們目前看起來這個進度規模還是有限所以我們希望今天提出來就是希望在這一部分我們還是要好好的替他們來規劃這些身障老者我們希望說基本上能夠有一個完整的規劃然後衛福部來重視這件事情好"},{"start":11200.905,"end":11204.43,"text":"好我們這個很重要我們一定來重視好那請衛福部來針對這部分來幫我們好好來規劃一下好那針對我們現在我們長照3.0是透過84量表來評估個案"},{"start":11216.823,"end":11239.76,"text":"那他評估的重點是評估他是否有生活治理能力那可是一樣對於喜憨兒這部分他們很多生活可以治理但是我們知道他在認知情緒社交各方面都有一些重重的障礙但是我們在造福評估"},{"start":11241.361,"end":11264.414,"text":"這一部分可能評估的結果是不符合失能那針對這一部分我們針對這一部分有沒有對他們因為你評估的結果可能他會沒有達到這巴斯量表的標準他生活上可能可以治理但是他在認知情緒社交方面可能沒有辦法達到那可是這一部分我們要如何去照顧他們"},{"start":11265.194,"end":11287.317,"text":"好的,謝謝委員的指教那我想長照基本上是用CMS在評估量表來處理巴士量表其實是在評估要聘外籍看護那這個部分委員所提到的是不是我們怎麼樣來作前性的來評估這個是不是市長回答一下"},{"start":11290.664,"end":11310.592,"text":"長照的這邊的評估不是用所謂的巴士量表長照3.0不是用巴士量表如果您關心的是巴士量表這邊是不是可以有一些做一些調整那基本上因為現在的這個聘外刊的那一塊現在有非常多多元免評的機制"},{"start":11311.812,"end":11327.884,"text":"那所以這個目前在勞動部這些相關的法規跟我們衛福部一起合作的部分已經有非常多的一些多元免評的對象不見得是要走到醫院去做這樣的巴士量表的評估所以因為我們"},{"start":11328.644,"end":11345.948,"text":"提出的意思說你針對他是不是能夠治理有沒有符合失能這部分單就巴斯量表部分可能對於這些身障老者可能就沒有辦法達到嘛所以我們也希望說對於失能評估工具的指標是不是可以納入"},{"start":11346.468,"end":11370.194,"text":"非身體性障礙的功能性退化指標這一部分現況就已經有所以我們的CMS的評估量表就是多元評估量表裡面對於最有情緒困擾的還有一些心智障礙類的這個部分已經都有納進去所以這部分已經有幫他納入了嗎是好那希望說這一部分好好幫我們加強一下是"},{"start":11371.021,"end":11394.087,"text":"那還有我們喜安兒如果過了65歲他可能在身上體性裡面他日間照顧可能無法繼續使用因為有可能這些身障的老人他到長照老人日間照顧中心他可能會被拒收因為據我們了解因為他們"},{"start":11395.407,"end":11406.578,"text":"心智障礙可能會吵鬧甚至會有攻擊性的行為所以對於這些身上老者可能他去這些照顧中心可能會被拒收會不會有面臨這樣的問題沒有辦法解決"},{"start":11410.995,"end":11430.935,"text":"委員關心這件事情其實我們在長照2.0及支付上路的時候針對有情緒困擾或者是不好照顧的對象我們都有加成的給付就是所謂的A碼的政策性的加成補助來幫忙讓這項的一個這個服務提供單位有這個意願來照顧這些困難照顧的對象"},{"start":11433.817,"end":11455.684,"text":"我們後來又針對失智症有伴隨BPSD就是所謂的情緒行為這些困擾的這樣的對象我們又額外再有一個加成所以其實這個對於困難照顧的部分其實都有兩個層次的一個相關的加成因為據我們了解其實像很多機構他們要收"},{"start":11456.624,"end":11485.436,"text":"我們喜安的這些老者其實他們也困擾所以他們都是盡量其實我們會感覺說他盡量是不收啦因為他也怕造成他的困擾或者影響到其他人所以我們說是不是針對這部分應該針對身障長者我們要有一個單一的服務窗口可以統整我們日間照顧喘息跟安置這些福利的轉介是不是可以針對他們這部分成立一個單一的服務窗口"},{"start":11487.521,"end":11509.291,"text":"現階段其實包括今天是以障礙身份進到長照體系或者以老人身份進到長照體系本來就有一個橫向的聯繫的平台因為我們擔心他會變成長照體系中的孤兒其實雖然說在規劃在裡面但是其實機構來講他們是傾向不願意去收他們"},{"start":11510.753,"end":11524.665,"text":"我們這一塊我們來努力那因為基本上目前的這個日照中心的有全國有一千多家那對於這個如果要專收障礙者這種尤其是心智障礙的話"},{"start":11525.526,"end":11554.021,"text":"那他基本上他的加速他的可經心就不高因為畢竟日照中心就是要方便這個交通接送可以抵達的到的所以目前我們的政策上也不是在長照體系不會說去特別有一些專一來針對什麼樣的類型的障礙者的一個日照這樣子其實他真的就是沒有辦法達到進變性的一個議題所以我們希望是這一千多家都能夠服務各種不同採取共融的環境"},{"start":11554.341,"end":11568.874,"text":"因為據我們了解因為身上長者可能對這些機構可能他們其實真的就是傾向盡量不收因為所以我們擔心他會成為我們長照體系中的孤兒因為你看"},{"start":11569.474,"end":11588.204,"text":"我們這個機構裡面照顧他們的只有5%他95%基本上都是家庭照顧那家庭照顧他到40歲老了以後他的父母親更老父母親也需要人家照顧他如果去照顧這些身障的長者所以我們希望長照3.0居然說要照顧全人"},{"start":11591.125,"end":11616.619,"text":"全靈全責任我也希望衛福部能夠具體針對我們身上長者這一部分能夠做一個改善也希望能夠納入我們後續的討論針對這一部分能夠來著重我們會再關注這個議題因為這一部分其實我們在地方都知道因為他們本身一些情緒甚至攻擊的行為長照體系其實"},{"start":11618.56,"end":11635.053,"text":"幾乎都是能不收就盡量不收啦所以我們擔心他會變成長照體系的孤兒針對這部分是不是單一個窗口特別來服務他們我們一定來設立這樣的一個最好的機制最方便的機制讓他們真的不要被忽略掉"},{"start":11635.453,"end":11648.349,"text":"對啊 因為我們說居然要推長照3.0居然全人 全靈 全責任好 希望這一部分能夠突顯一定不能遺漏任何一個對對對 這一部分希望我們衛福部來重視好的 好的 沒有問題好 謝謝 感謝部長好 謝謝圖權級委員接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":11668.719,"end":11682.328,"text":"謝主席有請部長請邱部長還有交通部公共運輸及監理師的胡副司長請吳副司長部長"},{"start":11686.347,"end":11712.149,"text":"今天主要排審神拳法的審查來做詢問那我想應該我剛剛看到你的報告裡面其實你有很多部分是已經表達本部競表同意那當然還有其他的條文是希望所屬的機關表示意見是這樣所以我看起來應該是各個委員所提的這個版本基本上貴部同意的"},{"start":11712.867,"end":11737.161,"text":"已經佔了快近一半了然後其他是所屬機關要去表達意見嘛這之前你在當立委的時候當召委的時候也都處理過因為深圳有涉及的面向還有這個相關的單位還是蠻多的就像今天交通部的這個副市長也都要到所以我是覺得這個應該是可以再加快啦"},{"start":11737.967,"end":11751.724,"text":"好不好這應該可以加快啦因為如果說大致上你們都有溝通過可能會有幾個比較集聚各個這個面向跟執行面可能會有一些一些自然染型的部分那這個可以限縮這個範圍"},{"start":11753.035,"end":11767.914,"text":"也可以找個時間大家先坐下來趕快討論如果我們大家有共識行政院可能他的速度就會就不可能再這麼緩慢的可能速度會更快甚至我們這個會期就可以把他提出來討論經過審查之後讓他通過儘早讓這些"},{"start":11772.526,"end":11801.032,"text":"新生障礙者的朋友的需求可以透過我們這樣一個修法的制度來予以保障我想這個也是部長一直都在做的事情謝謝所以我還是特別拜託就是說這個會期是不是可以把它盡快的趕快提出來到委員會來做討論這第一點那部長你今天看這五十三條剛剛黃修安委員提出來問題是非常具體實際的我們今天要修要修這個博愛座不要讓博愛座變成博鬥座"},{"start":11804.308,"end":11817.945,"text":"這個報導你應該都有看過一個國醫生浪出博愛座這個寫浪出是有點奇怪的用詞能被數落到哭那校長說會給他正能量這是一個面向的問題一個角度問題那第二個"},{"start":11819.367,"end":11841.813,"text":"我們今天為什麼要討論這個事情你知道剛剛部長有一句話我聽起來蠻感動的就是國家政策不管是哪一個單位哪一個面向在實行上在規劃上它就是一定要事權統一它的標準要一致嘛對不對那我跟各位提供一些訊息讓各位看一下我們有太多到現在通通沒有標準一致這一國N字啊高鐵的博愛座是寫這樣"},{"start":11849.215,"end":11855.581,"text":"三個圖卡對不對這第一個應該就是老嘛弱嘛然後然後再來公測不外坐就只有一個一個圖卡然後捷運不外坐四個來接下來你看台鐵台鐵已經把把這個不外坐然後又框了更大的一個一個標識叫優先席"},{"start":11876.636,"end":11890.801,"text":"他已經走在大家前面了走在你衛部前面了然後下面就是五個圖卡我們有五個圖卡我們有四個圖卡我們有三個圖卡我們有兩個圖卡圖標我不曉得這個是這個是副市長你們這幫部的節奏你們的規範高鐵你就是這樣做台鐵你就這樣做捷運你就這樣做公車你就這樣做"},{"start":11903.099,"end":11923.52,"text":"請說明跟委員報告因為其實過去那個博愛做的一個設置大概就是依照生權法那但是就圖示的部分我們確實是沒有做一個整合那不過為什麼為什麼會沒有做一個整合為什麼應該是說這個整合是你交通部想管還是衛護部要管還是你們兩個都不曉得誰要管"},{"start":11927.036,"end":11948.971,"text":"先跟委員報告一下我們先把責任確定清楚好不好因為申請法在修的時候你責任部一定是要一列席嘛一定要引業管的範圍要去處理要去面對的嘛對不對那我現在講說這個公共運輸這幾個公共運輸的整個處理不外出的方式包含他的圖卡通通不一致這個到底是誰的責任"},{"start":11951.261,"end":11962.694,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為我們其實現在各大眾運輸系統的所有的圖卡包括博愛座包括其他的一些圖卡我們部裡面現在都有在委託設計你們到現在才在委託設計應該是說已經有一段時間啦那其中博"},{"start":11968.761,"end":11987.223,"text":"因為不愛做的部分我們有配合就是說有考慮到說就是配合那個生權法已經要修正所以不愛做的部分我們已經有內部已經有預先設計了一個圖卡那如果說法規有修正的時候我們大概會你們預先設計的一顆圖卡是五個的還是三個的還是兩個的還是四個的"},{"start":11987.603,"end":12002.101,"text":"我們是參考國際的啦那我印象中好像是四個還五個的你還四個還五個你到底參考國際的你到底是參考四個還是參考五個的應該是比較像是現在不要叫做比較好像那我是不是在我高鐵會跟你講說比較好像是"},{"start":12005.403,"end":12024.647,"text":"因為這個部分我是不是在另外提供給委員因為我這個部分我們在委託設計的現在我沒有帶過來那我是不是會後再提供給所以你想要管所有的公共運輸基本上當你事權統一之後你把圖卡同步做出來之後大家都要依照你公告的一致性嘛對不對好那萬一你公告是四個圖卡那台鐵是不是抓起來打屁股"},{"start":12028.374,"end":12048.459,"text":"那台鐵已經做了博愛座又優先席然後它是五個圖卡它說全部要更掉那這些錢是交通部要支持還是台鐵要自賄台鐵現在已經民營了台鐵是公司化但還沒有公司化 對 已經公司化了嘛 對不對那是一個層次的營運方式嘛 對不對它已經做了啊它已經做了啊如果你是四個 它要不要改錢誰花"},{"start":12055.761,"end":12072.628,"text":"我想這個部分我們都會我們會來處理我們再來我知道你會處理你一定要處理你務必要處理你這不處理就是這樣一口多製啊5 4 3 2會不會搞到一個1而且1嘛真的有1公車不會做就1我們會參考國際上的一個圖示對你的國際圖示是要依照來一個國依照日本還是依照英國"},{"start":12084.046,"end":12112.6,"text":"因為日本跟英國也不一樣啊這個事情你要應變速度要非常快嘛今天你來背景你就知道可能很多人會垂詢到你可能你沒有意識到會垂詢到我這種我這種會這樣用圖卡的標示這最簡單的顯得一致的很清楚的日本就五對不對英國就三你要選擇哪一國我們會盡量融入所有有需要的人的一個圖示這樣子"},{"start":12115.028,"end":12138.262,"text":"這個齁 這個 這個其實台灣的博愛做文化可以接受到1972年所以我剛剛在主席來說說已經已經將近50年了我們要面對的 我們要去做處理 我們要去做改善的我們要去規格統一化的標準要一致的 陳柔跟陳副委員所講的嘛 對不對那你今天來了你還沒有辦法講一致性的一個回應所有的委員這個還不到剛剛洪修文講的那個層次問題喔"},{"start":12140.475,"end":12168.424,"text":"今天不是你一把它規格化的時候就不會發生我們這個今天之前發生的那些事情喔還是會持續發生喔但是你要成為部長所講的所謂的道德勸說啦所謂的愛心展現啦很多人都是這麼做但是極少數人就不是這麼做所以就是問題層出不窮嘛但是你自己公佈文在管理公共運輸的時候你這些標示圖卡都不一致的你叫人民如何去遵循"},{"start":12169.775,"end":12182.564,"text":"你叫列車長怎麼去做有效的執行溝通你叫任何公務運輸的服務人員要依照什麼樣的標準去做規範 去做引導那都是不可能的事情台灣公務運輸怎麼會搞成這個樣子加這個有54321喔"},{"start":12196.383,"end":12217.218,"text":"這個問題今天已經排專案了然後等一下要審查了如果你們到現在衛衛部跟交通部還沒有辦法有一致的共識難怪身權法這麼多條你要等到什麼時候才有辦法一切都以站在身心障礙者的朋友的角度的需求去做處理很難啦很難啦這是公部門的障礙"},{"start":12227.456,"end":12243.258,"text":"我想交通部一定會弄成一致性,如果我們大案審查通過的話,我相信交通部會很快弄一個標準的版本"},{"start":12244.559,"end":12269.003,"text":"剛剛講宣傳啦你剛剛講宣傳他意識性標準他可能今天法律通過之後他就必須一個星期內就要把這個標準弄出來了嘛你如果再拖了就不叫公共運輸了的標準化了那高鐵就變成慢鐵了台鐵就變成怪鐵了因為台鐵都已經比你們更優先了你現在還要叫台鐵去我們之前通過議員我們最後結論是怎樣你要叫台鐵已經做這個行為你要叫整條還回來"},{"start":12273.802,"end":12288.972,"text":"你對台鐵有沒有交代的地位?有沒有好工位?有沒有好藝術?好,我再說一句,宣傳嘛宣傳裡面衛福部,你也沒什麼錢耶你一百四十年都沒宣會,被人抬到半億六十,你只剩一千七百五十他們都沒有這麼可憐,一個月被人抬到兩千兩百幾萬"},{"start":12292.864,"end":12314.62,"text":"你一定要宣傳你不宣傳一定會出一定會再出問題你看這個下一頁台北捷運這個一直在宣傳電弧梯兩側站立城下不張兩派旅客先戰火一臉花生不要指著沒有錯的人這個部長知道這個新聞報導了吧副市長應該也知道嘛副市長這個事情你們都知道嘛對啊"},{"start":12315.16,"end":12334.289,"text":"我們以前的習慣就是都走,都騎車丟臉嘛,就因為路通就走嘛對不對,你如果沒有去公共安危,輛車都可以站立,你知道習慣靠右的人,習慣看到有通道在左邊的人,然後被兩個站在那個地方的人阻礙到,然後造成玩家路災,"},{"start":12336.232,"end":12344.867,"text":"你沒有法律的任何一個規範你只是做一個宣導而已喔你只是做一個宣導而已喔到現在還爭論不休這事情解決了嗎"},{"start":12351.335,"end":12379.361,"text":"跟委員報告這個主要是台北捷運啦那當初他們是為了一個效率的部分然後是希望大家站在右邊那可是後來發現其實這個對那個應該是說一邊在行走的時候也會造成旅客的一個不安全所以他們現在已經在做宣導就是說盡量就是不用特別站在右邊是兩邊都可以站那這個觀念據我了解台北捷運公司有持續一直在做一個宣導那當然這個"},{"start":12381.481,"end":12401.02,"text":"過程可能要 因為大家習慣已久 所以要一段時間的一個改變不過慢慢已經有開始有在做一些改變慢慢改變嘛 要宣導嘛對不對 差不多要多久的時間這個主要是台北市的部分啦 那我們會台北市有很多山鐵公共的"},{"start":12402.194,"end":12422.738,"text":"暫停嘛對不對我來捷運是這個樣子我到高鐵的時候又另外一個樣子我到台鐵又另外一個樣子我是台灣人我怎麼遇到三個公共運輸的這樣的一個一個電扶梯的狀況都不一樣我來捷運的時候沒有你就要這樣我來高鐵的電扶梯的時候你也不用這樣我去台鐵的電扶梯的時候你也不用這樣把電扶梯的事就不跟這種程度你這要怎麼處理"},{"start":12431.826,"end":12446.553,"text":"所以我一直講黃委員剛剛在提到就是重中之重啊你們今天來應該是準備好了啊你們這樣答覆我們我們今天修這個法好像對你們的幫助也不是很大勒市長你又要來齁 注意 嘿來"},{"start":12448.603,"end":12456.846,"text":"你一直叫我注意來,你就注意這個事情,看你怎麼打武藍,快點。我簡單講啦,有關於土石的保温,其實各國規定不一樣,我想說法國,法國他們還有一個就是傷兵,他們非常注重的就是說,你如果說受傷的那個,基中你看那個狗的裡面,有一個就是傷兵啦。"},{"start":12466.389,"end":12480.534,"text":"當然我們會來趕快 當然這個是主要是交通部一邊但是我們是 生權法這是我們管的嘛我們會趕快協調交通部 比較快來做一個相關的那個LOGO 比較快把它確定這第一點第二點就是說 那個選團的部分就像消防委員剛才所說不是只有改名而已 我們也是要比較快來做選團嘛這個部分雖然"},{"start":12488.536,"end":12496.937,"text":"你存錢幾萬而已全部都放在這裡他全部放在這裡也不一定看得到效果你要全部放在這裡我全力支持不會啦"},{"start":12498.552,"end":12524.44,"text":"還是要處理啊還是要處理1750你還是要全部放在這個地方不過還是交通部一起來嘛對不對當然是這樣嘛一個星期內啦好不好具體的你們宣傳的這樣的一個方式還有統一的這樣的一個圖卡的標示然後甚至於每一個車廂都有一定程度的定時去廣播等等等諸如此類相關的詳細計畫提供給委員會做參考好不好"},{"start":12525.54,"end":12543.771,"text":"拜託盡速盡速盡速一致性了那第二個第二個問題抱歉一樣還是要給部長看一下這個喔剛剛下一個下一個月剛剛次長講得很好啦就是下一個月那個服務的項目服務的項目對這個"},{"start":12548.599,"end":12573.336,"text":"這一個剛剛是月警員提供的嘛要一致性那次長特別提到 次長你注意了你特別提到個人助理是屬於這一個屬於社會就是 對不起兩個層次嘛一個是生活照顧嘛 對不對就屬於長照這一塊來處理嘛另外一個是屬於社會的參與面向嘛你看這個"},{"start":12574.349,"end":12583.697,"text":"各住的服務不提供之協助 各縣市均不依那我們簡單講 這七個項目呢社會參與 你看是哪幾項你看是哪幾項陪伴跟外出嘛 新北市不提供他怎麼社會參與你們剛剛為什麼要針對這個表去做答覆部長想說一致啦"},{"start":12601.65,"end":12610.352,"text":"好 那你說什麼照顧 應該1 2 3 4都可以算是嘛 什麼照顧你看這麼多縣市都不提供啊你們怎麼剛剛針對這一塊都沒有做任何的一個答覆我一連線幾乎全部都攔掛了"},{"start":12623.966,"end":12643.281,"text":"現在就是說我們這個部分主要是會有一個自立生活計劃這個計劃主要是社工、男性身障礙者來共同討論你要先去做需求評估嘛還要了解他的總統之後訂出一個照顧計劃但是委員你剛才說的那樣你如果身邊是陪伴跟外出這是社會參與最重要"},{"start":12644.622,"end":12660.274,"text":"我沒有話要跟你們說,我跟你們說的是有的啊有的就是你們要恢復啊,你們要看要不要處理啊,要不要去應變啊我比較快回去結束以後,我趕快來跟你們討論是要全國加起來,先把對社會常務,要給這身障者朋友,他把它限制住了,不行"},{"start":12662.915,"end":12687.688,"text":"我趕快跟新北市政府那邊趕快來瞭解一下 好不好然後也回覆給委員我時間有關係啦 我最後再請教部長跟次長啦你們要答覆我啦 如果說我們一個政策行程規劃都已經完整 然後執行也差不多我們就講五年就好了啦 講五年然後在整個執行過程裡面 這個預算的執行數基本上都不到六成啦"},{"start":12688.479,"end":12706.446,"text":"不到六成我要請教部長業管的單位業管的主管業管的承辦你們要怎麼處理你們的處置方式怎樣執行率低落一定要去檢討我到底是什麼原因嗎"},{"start":12708.223,"end":12722.995,"text":"不是 原因一定會很多啦到底是自然燃省的原因是大家可以理解的但是連續五年的情況之下就像現在這個啦我的助理馬上就可以獻底牌了這個是剛來的"},{"start":12727.104,"end":12747.98,"text":"對 這個當然就是要去看各種原因 如果是可以可那你就回答我什麼原因了 次長你注意你馬上回答我什麼原因不過委員 我們這個其實我們都有跟地方政府講就是說在沽的時候我們希望能夠給這一個我們聲音障礙者用寬沽的方式就是我們核定的時數 讓他們比較適合的讓他們比較適合所以地書公可能在水泳方面沒那麼多"},{"start":12754.125,"end":12772.903,"text":"他在收容,所以你會比較管他,但是他收容就沒這麼多啦所以每一年都是這樣就對了啦所以我們才有愛心,我們心照也幫他看但是他想你會提出的訴求就沒這麼多所以今年也這樣,明年也這樣,明年也這樣,國慶那年也這樣,不用檢討"},{"start":12775.957,"end":12793.409,"text":"原因就是這樣 你要跟我回答 原因就是這樣你如果要很肯定的答覆我 我就有另外一個問題要請教你了是這樣的 我想當然啦 我們來檢討一下看是不是有可能沒有好用的地方像剛才你說新北市那邊 他們告訴說內小的產物沒有人去陪伴我們自己來檢討 我這個部分"},{"start":12803.275,"end":12820.463,"text":"新北市各處的服務項目不同意外出這個部分這個裡面找新北市去看如何去討論然後去對新北市需要各處不能外出的情況要對這些深圳市的朋友如何坦白講在日本叫謝罪"},{"start":12822.463,"end":12829.305,"text":"那我現在就請教你嘛,你的合定總數110.4309,111.341,112.415,113.486,今年多少?你節節上升喔,如果到113對照12,你是上升到將近50%的成長喔,對不對?"},{"start":12844.66,"end":12854.265,"text":"更寬的一個核定嘛對啊但是相對的你的實際使用數啦齁你使用時數這邊表格都很清楚嘛還是在你的這個核定的總數都超五成多而已嘛一直都沒有超過嘛所以大概也說一句話說不合用啦不合情啦"},{"start":12871.432,"end":12884.738,"text":"應該是這樣嘛 剛才廖委員講的八點鐘 我覺得其實有辦法去凸顯每一個身上的朋友在提出各處的過程裡面真實的狀況嗎那倒未必"},{"start":12889.109,"end":12906.814,"text":"那你知道嗎 我們這個還要對照這個表格還不是很精細前面應該叫預算嘛 對不對我們的預算就是在這個資歷資源的大項裡面嘛3億嘛 對 3億但是你知道你一百十不是多少嗎一百十四你3億嘛 對不對一百十三多少"},{"start":12914.12,"end":12934.518,"text":"對 差不多兩億多一百十人是太少對一百十是太少對如果要簡單說的話就是種植一直增加一直增加一直增加嘛對不對 你如果要說世界殊榮的市場也有在增加但是對這個增加對你原本的匡列多層價預算那個合乎比例嗎好像沒有喔報告議員我是不是我知道那個"},{"start":12940.475,"end":12962.884,"text":"如果這樣說起來,可能我們在這部分有一些可能雖然合併,但是可能不合應,等等這個部分我們回來檢討我拜託一下,不要到這裡很需要各自的身心在者的朋友,跟他們再做幾個小時的斤斤計較"},{"start":12964.224,"end":12990.215,"text":"真的真的真的不需要這樣啦齁那整個我們有這個制度我們有這個預算我們有這個計畫但是執行起來當然你可以用另外一個角度來再做另外一個討論啦齁那我還是覺得當有這些預算的時候在整個執行上一直出的問題有明顯的這樣的落差而且我們是年年年節節的上升的這個面向的預算喔但是我們看不到實際上的今天"},{"start":12991.175,"end":13017.588,"text":"所有的身障者、朋友覺得這樣的需求他們可以應付到他們的真正的需要不然今天不會有這個記者會嘛所以我剛才有提這個嘛,這個是有問題嘛所以這東西是不是可以...這不可以...這不可以等到修緩嘛,對不對是不是一天白天有什麼樣的應變的促使相關的一些調整的一個方向、方案可以提供給委員會做參考,可以嗎?好,謝謝部長、謝謝次長"},{"start":13033.567,"end":13046.903,"text":"好 接下來請王振興委員來做詢問好 謝謝主席我們還是請邱部長請部長"},{"start":13055.14,"end":13079.625,"text":"委員好部長好所以今天雖然修法的內容看起來簡單可是如何能夠再落實如何讓它更精進真的是需要大家共同來努力那針對今天我們這個《老土法》第48條的修正條文裡面我們也提供一些想法來大家互相參考一下"},{"start":13081.705,"end":13109.392,"text":"今天大家都看到我們部裡面所提出來的這個書面報告裡面有關於勞扶法為什麼要針對這個福利機構的評鑑做一些調整我想已經講得非常清楚包括召委也希望能夠把勞扶法跟我們目前的這個長照法評鑑機構要去一致就是以前會分等地希望就直接把它設為兩者是一致的是合格或不合格"},{"start":13110.793,"end":13124.435,"text":"那這部分部長你也敬表支持那也希望能夠針對於這個條文裡面相關的一些內文在做修正動議以後把它能夠弄得更周全"},{"start":13126.157,"end":13150.475,"text":"我想大家都會朝這個方向去努力那在這個憲法過程裡面民眾黨他的黨團裡面其實也講到了立法說明說發現目前的評鑑會造成一些行政壓力那機構在處理希望得到高分的同時會投入大量的人力來準備書面的資料跟報表反而會壓縮了這個照顧的時間"},{"start":13153.278,"end":13171.196,"text":"這基本上是被以的長照服務品質提升了本質所以才希望能夠做這一個相關的這些配套措施包括跟兩個法案的一致性那我們也了解這個一致性是非常重要那也期待能夠得到一些改善"},{"start":13171.957,"end":13188.358,"text":"不過請教一下就是說我們如果要簡化評鑑標準減輕機構的壓力還要同時兼顧這個評鑑品質得到好的權平衡的話那我們在具體說法上有沒有辦法透過修法來達到這樣的目標"},{"start":13190.58,"end":13200.854,"text":"副長或者是次長有沒有相關的意見可以提供給我們做參考我想評鑑是一種不得不的必須要做就像醫院評鑑大家愛愛救但是為了維護品質"},{"start":13206.101,"end":13231.652,"text":"以及督導整個醫療院所能夠注意到各種品質安全各方面這個部分不得不的一個平衡的一個做法謝謝我們大院能夠來關心到這個問題我們也覺得把它變成一致性會更好處理也不用大家在扮"},{"start":13232.512,"end":13252.172,"text":"病人這種假意病定的衝到大家壓力大啦那最重要是好好把病人照顧好那這個部分我相信如果有這樣的一個一致性以後我們繼續來修正以及聽聽機構的聲音我相信我們會把平線的制度做得更"},{"start":13253.353,"end":13279.659,"text":"更好有必要的話我們都可以來成立小組來演繹這樣子是因為我們知道目前為什麼要把它從這個等D加以丙丁然後變成那個合格跟破合格我們往下看就可以知道目前的老夫法的評鑑標準裡面就有包括現有的如果是沒有修法之前的話就是分了U加以丙丁那丙跟丁基本上是會受到"},{"start":13280.899,"end":13307.999,"text":"影響會被公佈他的這個機構的名稱同時會有一些懲處那這個評鑑項目裡面其實還包括五大面向包括經營專業照護安全環境等等那有不同的占比那我們修法以後如果兩個法案的評鑑標準要趨於一致的話那未來在執行的部分包括老夫法跟長照法裡面的這個評鑑標準"},{"start":13310.04,"end":13338.491,"text":"有沒有已經同步在做處置這部分不知道目前部裡面有沒有相關的一些處理模式有關這個部分 周代理市長跟委員報告搭配整個條文的修改目前我們也已經邀集了相關的專業團體我們已經有一個研究計畫在做下一輪評鑑的評鑑指標的一個修改"},{"start":13339.291,"end":13356.208,"text":"其中包含一個目標就是怎麼樣把評鑑的項目在能夠比較精準的去認定它的品質的情況之下把指標的具體項目一併來做簡化這個是在整個計畫裡面的一個重要的方向"},{"start":13356.989,"end":13382.237,"text":"是 因為就好像剛剛昭緯一直在追問的交通部如何能夠針對於我們在提供給社會更公平更能夠服務到不同的族群之下可以有一致性的做法相對的如果我們未來也希望很多的服務的內容都能夠去一致或是對各個單位的要求去一致的話其實在不同的法律之間也應該"},{"start":13383.817,"end":13404.745,"text":"基於相同的要求之下應該朝這個方向來進進這很期待如果說衛福部裡面有相關的這些服務的內容分散在不同的這些條法律裡面的話也希望能夠從這個方向去檢討不要讓各個單位在執行的時候造成一些困擾我們會邀請長照師一起來參與就是大家一起來討論讓兩邊的做法能夠趨近"},{"start":13411.647,"end":13440.064,"text":"因為我們比較擔心的就是如果透過等一下我們也許會討論到修正動議來看的話會把原來是屬於兵等兵等的這部分就直接改成合格或不合格當然那個是要從這個執法裡面再去做確定我們比較擔心的就是本來在一開始的時候針對第48條的前面第一項的前面幾款就會直接如果有不符合規定的話就要公佈他的名稱負責人的姓名而且是直接開罰"},{"start":13441.545,"end":13455.641,"text":"那如果經過修正動議裡面的內文把它往後調調到第八項的話呢會變成說如果是不合格要限期令期改善如果不改善的話呢才要開始做處分"},{"start":13456.562,"end":13478.665,"text":"所以相對來講那反而是一個相對的放寬所以我們等一下在做這個修正動議的條文內容的部分我相信大家要提供更多的意見或者是有更好的方式來把這個該有的要讓我們的機構必須要遵守法尊的部分能夠有更周連的處置模式這個是等一下我們會再處理的地方"},{"start":13480.267,"end":13507.145,"text":"好的好 那針對是有關於這個博愛座的相關定義跟規範的部分我想是讓我第五三條大家也非常期待有更好的方式來解決目前廠長碰到的困境我本身是已經在現有的博愛座的條件之下我每次搭捷運就很大方的就坐在我該坐的位置那我現在不知道如果調整優先席以後我上到這個捷運或者是到哪裡我應該"},{"start":13508.266,"end":13528.474,"text":"怎麼樣去面對這樣的這個環境的就是這個條款改變以後造成的對我的一些影響我相信應該有很多人會開始要不知道怎麼樣去面對這種從博愛做變成優先席這樣的這個概念上的處置所以對於使用需求跟精神上的處置我相信"},{"start":13530.055,"end":13541.641,"text":"衛福部應該是責無旁貸要把這些要求或者是精神能夠貫注到日常的生活裡面做適當的處置那不知道這邊衛福部有沒有做哪一些的準備"},{"start":13542.608,"end":13566.6,"text":"好 我想委員提的這個很重要圖法不足以自省所以怎麼樣在桌前性的 不然的話那你本來應該要坐在那裡 才坐到如坐尊山的確會有這種擔心所以我們可能要把所有的配套與宣導的內容可能都要做桌前性的一個"},{"start":13568.22,"end":13590.8,"text":"一個一個設計,讓該做的做到哪一邊,該比更需要的可能就這個時候就可能給更需要的人這樣子我們希望整個設計到這樣的一個,形成這樣的一個文化,那文化是需要來宣導的這個部分我想我們會做這些委員的提醒,我們會把它做折扣性的一個來處理"},{"start":13591.901,"end":13611.699,"text":"因為文化的養成需要比較長久的時間那這個當然也希望有好的社會共識也知道未來在執行的時候可以怎麼樣讓它更為優化那最後一個部分就是要比較不是很緊急可是希望能夠盡速來處理的就是有關於公衛疫苗的能源運送的問題"},{"start":13613.22,"end":13629.59,"text":"因為我們知道現在天氣已經進入到夏季變得非常炎熱那對疫情的改善或者是目前針對疫情如何能夠有效管控那打疫苗應該是非常重要的一個需要提供給民眾的服務那目前"},{"start":13630.871,"end":13653.404,"text":"我們很多的疫苗包括流感疫苗、COVID疫苗、小二疫苗等等這個都需要透過冷藏的配送來讓這個品質可以得到好的保護可是很多的基層診所在領疫苗的時候需要由醫事人員到當地的衛生局去取回疫苗這個過程相對來講不准耗時而且"},{"start":13654.384,"end":13678.972,"text":"如何能夠有好的這個保存的模式其實是會讓人家擔心所以如何能夠討論出一個好的方式來讓這個疫苗的冷鏈配送服務可以更為周全那其實在COVID流行期那段時間很多的縣市是有提供配套措施的它可以透過好的這個冷鏈的配送"},{"start":13680.072,"end":13694.972,"text":"能夠讓這個疫苗很安全的而且是很有效率的抵達到不管是在衛生所或者是到基層診所來讓這個疫苗施打可以更為安全更為符合期待那目前並沒有"},{"start":13696.213,"end":13710.646,"text":"還是還沒有一個很完整的標準當然這個需要經費也需要一些好的措施跟方法那針對這部分不知道有沒有辦法請這個部裡面盡速的來研商"},{"start":13711.466,"end":13737.215,"text":"是針對於這個都會區先做呢還是要從偏鄉或離島先把它處理到一個程度讓全國未來再處理這個能量配送疫苗的這個安全度啊或者是各方面可以達到好的一個保護措施部長這邊有沒有可以提供給我們的想法我想委員提的這個是非常重要的在基層醫療長久以來發生的問題尤其在像COVID剛開始"},{"start":13742.325,"end":13762.294,"text":"當時我也擔任台北市醫師公會理事長,王委員也擔任基隆市醫師公會理事長,其實在防疫當中我們都花了很多的心力,一個剛開始要打COVID疫苗的時候,政府是認為基層診所是沒辦法打,當然他們認得很多原因,包括冷淚"},{"start":13763.795,"end":13779.626,"text":"配送是一個很大的問題但是我們後來經過專家的一個研議認為說他大概怎麼樣的一個運送會沒有問題然後果然這些螞蟻雄兵創造了七成的疫苗施打率"},{"start":13781.023,"end":13804.041,"text":"這個部分所以變成裡面解決這個能量的配重是一個很重要的問題那這個因為它跟衛生局有相當大的關係我們部裡面會出面來關心這些有沒有需要幫忙的因為它是相當的複雜診所像台北就有幾千家那不可能"},{"start":13805.784,"end":13834.95,"text":"有在真的打疫苗的公會疫苗的可能至少有幾百家以上衛生局都沒有這個人可以配送所以只好去領這樣子那這個部分有沒有更好的方式我們來思考來研議是 所以就要麻煩這個部裡面或者是CDC開始做一些統籌那要跟地方政府包括衛生局如何能夠商討出一個好的方式很期待這個部長可以趕快把這個事情"},{"start":13835.83,"end":13856.524,"text":"好的 做一個重要的處理模式那最後其實就是把今天三個部分跟部長來這邊做一些討論的期待能夠具體的落實好 那我們就繼續努力好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在請陳北宇委員來做詢問"},{"start":13869.073,"end":13871.383,"text":"好謝謝主席那先請長照司謝謝來請祝市長"},{"start":13880.592,"end":13898.533,"text":"委員好市長我想要快速跟您討論關於照專的事情我上次已經來談過因為我們看到長照3.0即將上路那我之前跟你討論過他們的個案量其實遠遠超過這個相關數字當時你給我的回應是說我們有考慮要把照專從臨時人員改為政府聘僱人員已經改了"},{"start":13899.474,"end":13913.71,"text":"对已经改了好那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨当我们要做到这件事情的时候我们其实需要第一线的照专协助我们对不对"},{"start":13914.451,"end":13942.468,"text":"好 這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟個管身上"},{"start":13944.009,"end":13958.664,"text":"因为我们现在不确定你们后续的规划跟进度如何补足人力如何把相关配套做好让所有被服务被照顾的人都有意识到中间这个照专一个管他们其实承担了非常大的工作量跟业务量"},{"start":13960.013,"end":13982.211,"text":"跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年"},{"start":13982.831,"end":14003.012,"text":"那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會"},{"start":14006.235,"end":14028.469,"text":"让更多人来应征吗可是你再看一下这张投影片的最下方叫做充实照顾人力确实我们有想到照服员的劳动条件要调整然后或者是扩大外籍中阶技术人力的禁用推动照顾分级派工这些我都非常认同确实可以改善现场的状况但是我们却没有想到照顾人力这一端就是我刚刚说的"},{"start":14028.809,"end":14048.958,"text":"其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以"},{"start":14049.98,"end":14075.901,"text":"立刻改善现场的状况先不管长照3.0上路之后那光是现在状况我都还是很担心那可不可以因为我时间有限我不要耽误其他委员时间我想我的具体的要求非常明确我要持续跟长照司讨论我希望我们在座长照无缝接轨从病人出院要回到社区当中那个无缝接轨我们要必须同步确保照专跟A个管的量能是真的可以负荷的"},{"start":14076.341,"end":14101.013,"text":"否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性"},{"start":14102.191,"end":14123.997,"text":"有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境"},{"start":14125.318,"end":14141.051,"text":"我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了"},{"start":14141.491,"end":14164.048,"text":"因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個四千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府有邀請一些願意參與公民參與社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我是"},{"start":14167.831,"end":14189.814,"text":"讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好好謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家屬我其實要我之前在跟社家屬討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分"},{"start":14190.194,"end":14213.182,"text":"我們其實也已經找過社家屬開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何"},{"start":14216.008,"end":14228.051,"text":"第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼"},{"start":14229.179,"end":14247.094,"text":"跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前"},{"start":14247.654,"end":14263.573,"text":"那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了"},{"start":14264.554,"end":14291.35,"text":"學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣"},{"start":14292.39,"end":14309.685,"text":"最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對"},{"start":14310.205,"end":14329.893,"text":"委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始在做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有"},{"start":14331.894,"end":14353.722,"text":"像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差那這個部分的救濟"},{"start":14355.646,"end":14380.727,"text":"對不起 我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的行政救濟他都可以來使用好 那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日"},{"start":14381.187,"end":14406.757,"text":"提供跨區服務上次我有問到這個事情我不確定相關進度但時間有限你們可以再給我們後續的結論嗎如果你們有進行相關會議的話好不好好謝謝好下一張一樣是社家屬喔其實關於合理調整的部分我們也發現了很多問題而且這些問題可能還蠻棘手的第一個是合理調整的部分呢目前第一個問題是看衛福部的規劃目前你們是要求這些機關自行"},{"start":14407.957,"end":14417.451,"text":"進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼"},{"start":14419.335,"end":14445.792,"text":"針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有訂一個各機關去訂定合理調整一個各機關去訂指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去訂相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去訂"},{"start":14448.294,"end":14471.128,"text":"他的一般一些合理調整的具體的做法那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域他會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在他的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整"},{"start":14471.428,"end":14494.855,"text":"那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了有 我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題"},{"start":14495.795,"end":14520.42,"text":"衛福部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有那教育部也在在嚴定中好這個我們會再跟你們所知再請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助"},{"start":14522.58,"end":14540.032,"text":"因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整它可能造成一種歧視可是當時沒有成功入法可是我認為在身障權法裡面如果我們沒有積極的態度我覺得其實是不合理的那如果我們後續還要修所謂的反歧視法我認為這個事情要一併考慮"},{"start":14542.931,"end":14563.324,"text":"目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整"},{"start":14565.285,"end":14594.121,"text":"或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論"},{"start":14594.781,"end":14623.338,"text":"看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年"},{"start":14626.983,"end":14644.172,"text":"困境會是什麼這個部分的話因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度這就是我擔心如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來好嗎謝謝主席不好意思超過時間謝謝謝謝陳委員的詢問謝謝代理處長好委員會在這邊報告因為"},{"start":14651.581,"end":14678.767,"text":"我們的天達園還有首爾園你們可以先用餐沒關係但是我知道你們手都要動因為我們委員會會開到所有委員會垂詢完畢我怕你們第一次來給你們嚇到因為這邊是血汗情的你們可以先用餐應該還有剩下三位委員所以就請各位委員空置時間接下來請蔡議員、蔡議員、蔡議員"},{"start":14681.889,"end":14683.172,"text":"不在請換語委來做詢問好謝謝召委有請部長來請部長"},{"start":14698.795,"end":14713.422,"text":"今天我們是針對帳權法會處理博愛座的部分改為優先席因為這個部分我也有提案權力支持我想會是一個好的開始我相信相關的問題衛福部也會排除"},{"start":14714.542,"end":14729.089,"text":"那我針對這個帳權法想要針對個人助理的制度那還有帳權法如何保障自立生活那希望衛福部能夠更加努力的爭取因為部長你知道上一次大幅修改是2011年1月10號"},{"start":14731.57,"end":14750.871,"text":"那到今天14年沒有大休那邱部長還是邱委員的時候應該記得我們上一屆那就是遇到衛福部的版本那跟我們那個帳權團體的落差很大那我知道衛福部到現在都還沒有準備好那我憂心忡忡所以今天就"},{"start":14752.873,"end":14775.491,"text":"再次来质询这一题我想我们目前都知道障权法就是里面障碍者申请个人助理的法源依据是第50条第9款当年这个条文其实就有很多的问题因为条文限制要促进社会参与导致刚刚我们召委也有讲到就是说"},{"start":14775.911,"end":14804.025,"text":"他在現實上個人助理服務的內容常常被限縮解釋不管是社會參與甚至把個人協助的服務包裹在自立生活的概念裡面解決沒有辦法讓障礙者完整自覺的掌控服務也就是其實目前我們這整個法落實的情況完全不符合CRPD的第19條條約個人助理的問題很多可是去年8月我們部長還沒有當"},{"start":14805.566,"end":14830.029,"text":"已經 您當部長了嗎 那個時候七點半 有那可是那個版本我不知道可能會是前一屆部長任內完成的所以去年八月公告的版本預告草案完全沒有處理這一條也讓障礙者非常的失望喔那所以我們今天對未來的衛福部送到行政院送到立法院的版本期待很高那我就先講原來的問題"},{"start":14832.07,"end":14853.375,"text":"那法律因為年久失修不完整就障礙者等於是被迫走上訴訟的路2023年新北市的障礙者遇解那他個人助理時數有60小時的上限平均每天只有兩小時沒有辦法讓他符合我們法律的尊嚴的自立生活所以他告了新北市社會局勝訴"},{"start":14855.175,"end":14874.386,"text":"那判決出入之後各縣市核定個人助理時數雖然沒有明文上線可是實際上核定的情況其實很不樂觀那以下是我們辦公室這個PPT好像沒有顯示出來我這邊螢幕是壞掉了嗎主席可以暫停一下"},{"start":14875.647,"end":14901.706,"text":"有了那這個部分我要先講一下也請我們召委一起監督我們衛福部自己沒有統計這個是民間團體台自盟自己調查的到底申請的需求多少核定了多少我們衛福部自己沒有叫縣市地方政府統計這個是他們自己去做調查的他們問了57個障礙者申請個人助理的需求你看從左邊來看"},{"start":14904.708,"end":14919.546,"text":"720小時就是重症24小時的那日本跟韓國都有開放可是在台灣720這位第一號的被問的被訪問的只有被核定5小時核定需求比1%你看到的情況是這樣"},{"start":14921.161,"end":14941.135,"text":"只要申請然後我們右下角這邊是實際來看720申請的就核定時數5小時610小時的核定125小時那上面是台字盟統計的你發現我們看一下右上這個申請時數越高核定比例越低"},{"start":14942.236,"end":14967.507,"text":"我想朝偉非常的了解我們雲林這邊的身障者障礙者的家庭通常會申請這麼高的因為他這個都要被核定嘛就是重症那日本韓國都有全日24小時就會所謂申請720的我看我們台灣我看衛福部如果統計的話等一下我會要求衛福部去特定幾乎應該沒有核定成功的啦那為什麼日本韓國可以有我們台灣卻沒有"},{"start":14968.727,"end":14995.765,"text":"那這個部分剛剛朝委也很關心這個問題那根據我們辦公室跟這些障礙團體的了解就是因為時數用不完因為衛福部過去會說時數還有剩啊用不完是為什麼幾個原因第一個各住安排限制多而且有些地方政府規定你一個月前要提前預約今天我們如果就是說叫大家能夠預估自己一個月後的生活狀況的話你就會發現"},{"start":14998.467,"end":15025.456,"text":"困難很高尤其是精神障礙者幾乎沒有辦法就那個個人的計畫而且服務事項各種受限障礙者還不能自己選定個住依我知道的日本的制度他是把錢發給障礙者自己依照政府的規定的哪些是個人助理的資格可以自己選擇你今天如果還跟某些人不合的時候那配合不佳別無選擇所以我們現在臺灣的這個個住制度"},{"start":15028.477,"end":15049.749,"text":"地方政府幾乎都沒有以障礙者為核心那這也是違反CRPD的精神那你可以看到就以2024年全國1326個人申請平均核定的時數30個小時等於是一天一小時這個比一個長者的長照服務還低我想我們全國的"},{"start":15050.731,"end":15072.954,"text":"障礙者絕對真實如果能夠需用的話不會是這樣那所以才會造成時數使用率這麼的低那這幾個都是目前制度的問題所以歸納來講因為時間的緣故就是我認為目前的申請制度就有五大問題第一個資格限制如果今天有聘僱看護者"},{"start":15073.755,"end":15100.594,"text":"看護者不是也需要休息嗎那你為什麼限制他都不行還有零有其他的津貼者也不行未考慮緊急個別需求像我剛講的精神障礙者他沒有辦法在一個月前做計畫等等那方式也是那對撰寫申請計畫說不利另外內容剛剛昭緯的質詢也有講到各縣市認可服務事項不同嚴重影響核定結果第四點障礙者"},{"start":15101.334,"end":15116.355,"text":"無法參與補助審議會議表達個案需求那就讓一群不知道是怎麼樣的專家齁只上核定那這部分也不符合CRPD的精神應該要讓審議的過程中有一定比例的障礙者一起參與"},{"start":15116.735,"end":15134.867,"text":"最後沒有辦法申訴最後我們看到新北的那位據說最後幾乎是要有律師協助就是行政訴訟訴願那這讓他們申訴的成本非常的高這都是制度的問題所以我就五個要求最重要時間的緣故我想第四點"},{"start":15135.427,"end":15152.025,"text":"我希望我們衛福部你至少做障礙者申請時數跟核定結果的統計進行分析那再來我們修法的時候就可以依照這個時數來講那如果要增加個人助理的話我知道衛福部擔心預算過高可是你們統計出來的跟我們看到日本韓國的都不一樣"},{"start":15156.83,"end":15181.151,"text":"以東京的人數2000萬接近台灣那他們申請就是24小時的人數是大概我知道的是400人左右所以不會像你們擔心的一個天文數字所以這部分台灣在經濟上我們已經是跟日韓並駕齊驅制度上不應該讓我們的障礙者無法符合CRPD的國際精神那我想"},{"start":15181.471,"end":15195.509,"text":"我們一切要務實沒有統計就沒有發言權我們一切都應該科學來規劃台灣能夠做到多少這五點那可以一個月內給我書面報告然後希望你們能夠納入你們的版本嗎如果評估OK的話好嗎邱部長我想"},{"start":15199.153,"end":15216.754,"text":"非常謝謝委員提的這麼重要的建議而且很具體我想我們一定會一個一個來檢討一個月給書面報告給書面報告也給我們盡量能夠納入修法所有的未還委員一份好嗎沒問題好 那請周偉跟我一起監督感謝 謝謝邱部長謝謝"},{"start":15219.953,"end":15230.624,"text":"一個月你對他們太寬鬆了應該是兩個星期內啦好謝謝接下來請葉元之委員葉元之委員不在請陳委員來做詢問"},{"start":15251.299,"end":15260.264,"text":"謝主席麻煩請法部矯正署跟衛福部矯正署還有衛福部要哪位?邱部長是國健署?沒有,一個矯正署"},{"start":15275.494,"end":15291.399,"text":"我想先看一下這個圖這部電影的畫面是1990年已故的金馬影帝陳崇勇主演的電影片名叫《我在死牢的日子》這個畫面的影片中一位死刑犯挾持監鎖護理師的畫面"},{"start":15294.54,"end":15321.766,"text":"那雖然這是一部電影但是沒想到這樣的畫面卻真實在監獄裡面上演而且發生在我們台東那這個是在這個月的10號東城監獄發生受刑人看診時勒住護理師的頸部拿筆攻擊護理師的新聞那這是當天發生事件診間的這個示意圖我們看一下"},{"start":15322.506,"end":15338.865,"text":"受刑人進入診間之後坐在醫師的左邊當時那隻行兇的筆是放在醫師桌上的右手邊那位受刑人先把醫師右手邊的筆緩緩拿到醫師的左手邊放在桌上"},{"start":15339.606,"end":15357.769,"text":"後來拿起筆就往護理師方向過去攻擊護理師當時在那個診間沒有戒護人員發生事件之後診間走道上的兩位戒護人員就立即衝進去壓制受刑人"},{"start":15359.45,"end":15375.616,"text":"整間內這裡有個重點就是說整間內為什麼沒有戒護人員那為什麼放獸型人與這個醫護單獨處在一個空間內那這樣的戒護都沒有疏失嗎 矯正署"},{"start":15381.428,"end":15399.46,"text":"好 主席還有委員 針對剛才委員的一個提問就是針對東城監獄在10號發生這個雙人攻擊這個醫護人員的事件剛才委員提到了當時其實我們在整監其實都有有監護人員在戒護"},{"start":15399.98,"end":15425.816,"text":"但是他介護不是只有單純幾個人他整批帶過去看診大概也有數十個人那可能他站的位置大概當時可能是在這個外面的這個還看診區那真正他實際進入到診間去呢這部分我們一般介護人員並不會就是直接跟著他進去你說診間內有介護人員他另外診間還沒有我說那個看診區的地方他等待看診區後診區後診區"},{"start":15428.477,"end":15455.074,"text":"好沒有關係我不跟你討論細節啦但是發生的當下整間內或許空間狹小那沒有確實裡面在整間內沒有健護人員在裡面好所以這個部分我在這裡點出來這也是未來你們要要這個檢討的事情那是不是因為那畢竟只有一坪左右大小的空間"},{"start":15456.435,"end":15482.347,"text":"那這樣的一個空間是不是你們要繼續如果發生這樣的事件我想空間的大小也是為了你們要檢討的一個問題那承辦這個業務的醫院其實是非常的憤慨那他們也揚言說如果就是說未來繼續這個樣子都沒有改善的話他們要退出這個服務那根據這個台東縣護理師公會"},{"start":15486.281,"end":15504.334,"text":"在6月15日發表一個最新的聲明他們對這個事件也表達強烈的不滿並且提出四點的具體訴求包括立即要制定入監醫療安全指引建立完善的這個醫療暴力通報與應變處理機制而且要立法將"},{"start":15504.994,"end":15511.059,"text":"第一線醫護人員納入保護範圍以及這個全面檢討現行矯正機關的醫療服務契約內容以確保這個整個醫護人員的這個執行安全我想這些訴求不僅反映了這個基層的這個醫護人員的這個切身的需求更凸顯長期以來"},{"start":15527.112,"end":15546.525,"text":"矯正機關在醫療服務中這個安全保障機制的嚴重不足的這個結構性問題那我不知道說在這邊衛福部呢是不是在這個事件發生之後呢已經有立即跟這個矯正署來共同討論檢討如何改進了你們是不是已經有開會了有嗎"},{"start":15551.896,"end":15572.666,"text":"其實這個我們一樣是非常嚴厲的譴責這樣的一個情況我們與相關的單位我們也發表了聲明衛福部也發表了聲明部長我不是要你們衛福部發表聲明我的問題是你們有沒有跟剿政署共同來開會提出檢討"},{"start":15576.448,"end":15595.186,"text":"我們當時新聞稿是說我們將會與相關的單位好沒關係如果將會就不是出國的將會我希望你們立刻好不好在最短的時間內不然我跟你講這個醫療體系退出服務是很嚴重對他們受刑人權益也是一個傷害可以快一點嗎你們那邊講個時間點在什麼時候之內你要完成"},{"start":15603.294,"end":15617.303,"text":"我們跟小政單位馬上來進行那個在檢討整個做本來有個作業稀之那我想你們是不是兩個禮拜內因為畢竟這件事情已經發生一段時間我們兩個禮拜內就馬上來召開相關的聯繫會議檢討流程然後跟委員報告"},{"start":15623.707,"end":15648.305,"text":"那因為根據自由時報的報導這個已經不是單一的事件因為近年來類似醫療暴力的事件在全國各地的這個監所都陸續發生例如在去年台北監獄跟高雄監獄都有類似的案例所以這個問題已經是一個就是說常年發生的問題必須我們要很嚴肅的來看待"},{"start":15652.389,"end":15657.975,"text":"我想聚焦在東城監獄這件令人痛心的暴力事件"},{"start":15660.779,"end":15682.031,"text":"在這個當然在這個部分剛剛有提到就是說在管理的部分有一個也出現很大的漏洞在監所內對於這個危險物品的管理儲存有這個重大的瑕疵那收容人他如何能夠輕易取得這個"},{"start":15682.972,"end":15709.065,"text":"尖尖的這個原子筆作為這個攻擊的工具也反映出說對這個高風險收容的這個風險評估還有這個無預警的機制這個是非常明顯不足的那我想在這個工會的護理師工會的這個訴求當中已經有特別強調就是說制定入監醫療安全指引這個部分那麼"},{"start":15711.297,"end":15735.956,"text":"那么我们再看在特约根据全民健康保险提供的矫正机关医疗服务计划里面特约医疗院所必须要承担来提供医疗服务的责任但是契约的内容几乎都没有提到风险保障还有安全协助的具体条款"},{"start":15736.786,"end":15755.739,"text":"好那這個在現實執行的這個環境的危險性其實看起來是明顯脫節同時我們在醫療法裡面24條還有106條雖然已經明定這個醫療暴力的刑事責任但是呢在這個矯正機關作為特殊"},{"start":15757.46,"end":15780.657,"text":"他們在矯正機關的這個特殊環境執法的保障保護的實際執行顯然是沒有辦法跟上這個法律的規範那我想在5月的時候莊惠雄委員質詢當中也有提出類似醫療暴力事件頻傳也需要法務部跟衛福部進行跨部會的合作跟系統性的解決"},{"start":15782.78,"end":15789.812,"text":"從第一個問題看起來你們目前都還沒有聚在一起所以我想我剛剛提的一切的一切希望你們兩個禮拜這個會議可以來啟動好"},{"start":15796.789,"end":15805.858,"text":"那再來我想有另外一個兩個問題就是說我們要檢討一下這個現行醫療服務的執行規範有特別矯正機關有要求這個醫療團隊連續三天設診再連續假期"},{"start":15817.93,"end":15838.455,"text":"的時候那每天最多分為上午跟下午兩個時段那每個時段呢原則上三個小時並且至少就是說至少就是說間隔半個小時那這項規定本來就是說要確保這個受刑人的醫療需求跟穩定"},{"start":15839.835,"end":15866.538,"text":"但是在執行當中也發生了嚴重的問題就是大家想一想連續三天高強度的執勤特別在介護人力有限的情況下顯著增加了醫護人員身心上的負擔也有可能就是說因為連續三天因為疲勞降低警覺性"},{"start":15867.199,"end":15892.244,"text":"好 所以從這個間接來提升安全風險那這個部分東城監獄的事件當中我們了解就是說這護理師正處於連續執勤的第三天那或許這個也是他就是說未能及時察覺危險因素的其中之一啦好 所以特別點出這個部分我不知道繳證署是不是也有"},{"start":15893.744,"end":15910.993,"text":"針對這三天的這個連續射診的規定有進行系統性的評估因為我想我的這個評估是因為如果有相關數據顯示這樣安排可以提升受診人的醫療品質然後減少疾病惡化然後降低轉診的比例"},{"start":15911.653,"end":15926.966,"text":"那當然這個是值得考慮但是就是說你到底有沒有充分的數據來支持能夠證明這項規定的必要性那再反過來看就是說連續執勤那導致這個醫護人員疲勞累積那也會影響這個診斷的這個"},{"start":15934.353,"end":15940.827,"text":"準確性跟應變能力所以這個部分我不知道你們是不是有這個數據上的一個研究統計"},{"start":15943.565,"end":15963.956,"text":"從我們醫療的角度來看,真的醫院本身就已經業務繁重那在連續假期又要增多這樣的一個服務,其實壓力會非常大,我想連手裡面的介護人員恐怕都"},{"start":15965.071,"end":15982.088,"text":"人力都不一定有辦法來配合我們希望在看門診的時候其實在我們覺得應該是不是都要為了保護醫跟護因為醫療暴力零容忍所以如果在這個叫矯正機關裡面的"},{"start":15988.187,"end":16012.195,"text":"的人也應該是比較更需要去關心因為他可能情緒不好或怎麼樣所以基本上我以前我們很多學生到監獄裡面去看像雲林在哪裡很多台大醫院會面也負責很多其實他們都覺得很有意義但是無形中還是潛在的有他危險我聽了那麼久我是聽不到部長你的針對我的問題回答就是說"},{"start":16017.057,"end":16025.584,"text":"因為要檢討嘛 你剛剛講這個問題我們都知道啊所以我是不是在這裡 具體檢討我是希望 因為這個是矯正機關矯正機關要求的啦 我想是不是說這個部分對 我剛剛問他嘛 部長搶著回答 我也不知道"},{"start":16035.471,"end":16062.832,"text":"對 說明一下 針對這個三天以上有連續假期要請這個我們的醫事的服務的契約的這些醫療機構來看診但這個根本的考量也是根據我們的一個目前我們在我想我們不談我們不談需求啦我這裡講你有沒有什麼應變的方式比如說把現行規定改為這個彈性排斑嘛或者是每週輪替的頻率增加嘛"},{"start":16064.124,"end":16089.075,"text":"好對不對所以或者是你們要根據這個實際的這個醫療需求來做一個整個射診的時段的調整嗎這部分我們會跟衛生部在研議那目前這個根據是根據我們不得連續三天不得開封不得什麼連續三天不開封不開就是說不開什麼讓他們能夠從設防出來到工廠去洗澡運動"},{"start":16090.296,"end":16117.934,"text":"那尤其遇到長年假像明年的過年有九天的假期你不可能說都不讓他們出來洗澡或是看電視或是或是這個抽菸幹嘛那趁這個時間的時候因為這時間的假期太長我們也希望安排有醫療看診一定有需求的這樣的一個需求所以我們才會有這樣的一個規規範請衛護部或是真的相關的醫療機構對啦現在就是你們不能只考慮到受診人的需求嘛"},{"start":16118.955,"end":16141.735,"text":"現在就是發生這樣的問題請你們一併檢討我剛提供幾個方法然後我已經沒有時間了但我提一個最後最嚴重的問題就是我們現在來就是說壽星人看診欠費的問題你要看一下這個欠費截至目前為止總共積欠了1278萬元"},{"start":16150.068,"end":16158.637,"text":"這個統計只是現在在裡面的受刑人欠費的統計喔他們一旦畢業出監之後那些數據就"},{"start":16160.765,"end":16187.56,"text":"那個一筆勾銷喔然後全部都要醫院自己想辦法去追討喔我想這個是非常不合理的醫院已經冒著生命的危險派人去監所裡面去提供服務了然後這些受刑人他無力負擔的時候你們要出監以後矯正室以後沒什麼事啊"},{"start":16189.191,"end":16203.303,"text":"這個是這個是天大沒有道理的如果你們這個不改的話我呼籲不用我呼籲啦我告訴你已經有醫院的院長在跟我們講說我們要全面退出啦看你們怎麼辦啦"},{"start":16207.233,"end":16226.9,"text":"當然委員剛才講的這個1278萬是到今年4月底為止就是在間的部分現在只是4月 總計到4月而已他如果這個在間的部分我們現在目前的一些都有強制在跟他扣款而且積極在扣款 那也有聯繫他的家屬如果他沒有錢也會聯繫他的家屬來繳款"},{"start":16228.46,"end":16245.707,"text":"另外我們也有請他可以根據相關的健保法來申請這些減免或是要貸款等等的一個補助所以你的意思就是說那個醫院繼續自己去跟這些受刑人然後出監以後繼續去跟他們追討"},{"start":16247.356,"end":16261.525,"text":"我這樣啦齁我在這邊提出具體的建議第一個要求你們回頭去統計已經出間的就是說積欠的費用到底有多少我們很想看看我們替這些醫院"},{"start":16263.631,"end":16279.824,"text":"發聲一下到底還有多少錢沒有收回來我想看了以後搞不好都沒有醫院願意進去監鎖了然後我想這個其實是這個部分你們就是說有沒有"},{"start":16281.838,"end":16302.272,"text":"在這個我提出建議啦 就是說矯正署你們研議能否代電受刑人的支付額啦並且針對這個無力支付的這個個案進行後續的追討啦你怎麼不能叫醫院自己去討啊醫院還要忙著救別人 對不對難道醫院還要負責討債嗎"},{"start":16304.301,"end":16324.278,"text":"再來就是說能否在這個醫療服務契約當中增添這個欠費補償的機制保障這個醫療機構的權益我想我就提出這兩個建議剩下的你們就繼續研議我要在你們就是說剛剛都說了種種一切的一切我們兩個禮拜內啟動"},{"start":16327.433,"end":16347.407,"text":"這樣子的會議衛福部跟矯正署好那你們這個欠費這個我給你們幾個月時間你們好好去研議好看要修要修哪裡你們的辦法要怎麼修就不要讓醫院進去承受這些風險出去討債你覺得他們會遇到什麼"},{"start":16348.669,"end":16370.642,"text":"如果有人出去我不知道他們未來是出監以後是什麼樣的狀況那天偷笑也是很恐怖的好嗎好就那個你的衛福部兩個禮拜啊那個監這個這個矯正署的欠費的一個月好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":16377.386,"end":16388.189,"text":"好 接下來請姚委員要來詢答請主席謝謝主席 主席請下秀部長來請部長部長好"},{"start":16402.987,"end":16424.426,"text":"部長我們衛福部去年有預告修正了身心障礙法的權益保障那有關無障礙設施我們將合理調整跟通用設計這兩個概念入法對不對那我"},{"start":16425.791,"end":16437.6,"text":"我今天先跟你們的團隊討論一下合理調整跟通通設計合理調整其實就是比較像個案來做處理"},{"start":16449.013,"end":16472.998,"text":"那通案設計就是以後我們在不管環境、交通、資訊、通訊等各層面都要依照通案設計的原則來規劃算起來算是一個全面性的東西現在是這樣子就是有民團表示合理調整"},{"start":16474.78,"end":16497.566,"text":"會被誤用或者是被當成阻礙長期規劃的擋箭牌也就是說政府對於各項設施長期規劃改善的計畫讓國家邁向通用性無障礙環境會不會因為導入合理調整而延緩貴府府的看法是什麼"},{"start":16504.093,"end":16532.601,"text":"不一定要部長回答我想不管是合理調整或通用設計都是國際的一個趨勢也是CRPD所提出來的名詞當然對於軟體硬體的一個合理調整整個通用設計更是有幾個原則在做整體性的處理基本上委員所提出擔心的部分是不是周代理市長"},{"start":16534.743,"end":16554.729,"text":"各位委員報告,現在無障礙設施的部分,規定在生存法的57條,它是一個義務,一定要遵守。合理調整是一個這次修法的過程比較新引進來的一個做法,國際上新的趨勢。目前在做法上面的話,我們是比較傾向於用一個指引的方式,"},{"start":16555.429,"end":16576.154,"text":"讓各個相關的主要的目的事業主管機關能夠在他的目的事業裡面去訂定怎麼樣去做合理調整那通用設計也是一個他沒有到無障礙的程度這麼高但是他是一個比較讓更多的人去更方便使用的一個觀念他其實稍微和無障礙稍微還是有一點點不一樣還是有一點差別"},{"start":16577.185,"end":16598.346,"text":"也就是說 因為我下一題就是剛剛您講的就是我們各項的無障礙設施其實它涉及很多不同的機關所屬權責那衛福部現在跟未來"},{"start":16600.543,"end":16608.327,"text":"到底怎麼去協調各部會把通用設計的理念逐步納入改善設施你們現在的做法"},{"start":16617.984,"end":16639.694,"text":"那目前有一些通用設計的一些比較這個一般性的概念那其實我們跟內政部這邊有在已經在這個建築技術規則建築物的那個無障礙設施設計的規範裡面他就已經一步一步的有在一步一步的去做導入了就是說那他不是只有在做"},{"start":16640.714,"end":16663.351,"text":"針對無障就是身心障礙者之於使用那一步一步有在導入那另外在這個特殊教育法裡面那也把這些概念都一步一步的在導入學校的部分也在進一步的導入基金會大概也有透過一些產業的這種活動或者競賽來去做相關的觀念宣導或者引入我的意思呢就是這個涉及跨部會的"},{"start":16664.672,"end":16686.123,"text":"的問題就是我們修我們的法可是同時也必須要橫向的跟其他的部會做統整的工作我們會跟各部會一起來相關的部會一起來努力就曾經身障者的個有一個個人助理制度"},{"start":16687.602,"end":16701.752,"text":"有個人助理制度就是他大概就是為了要照顧身心障礙者所以身心障礙者是可以透過申請來申請"},{"start":16705.134,"end":16728.628,"text":"個人助理那現在多數的地方政府都設有60每個月60小時的申請上限這個應該不是中央規定的不是可是地方政府多數都說是中央規定的這個部長知道嗎我們應該沒有規定"},{"start":16731.101,"end":16746.046,"text":"我們目前是沒有去設定在一個60小時的上限地方政府之所以會規定大概是因為經費不足對不對服務量能跟經費"},{"start":16748.747,"end":16762.702,"text":"個人助理的部分他現在和如果他是同時可以個案同時可以使用長照服務的話其實在評估的過程就是他會把各種服務一起綜合性的去評估個案的需求用哪些各種各樣的服務"},{"start":16765.111,"end":16777.93,"text":"對 可是其實我在想地方政府規定了60個小時當然有多少人力"},{"start":16780.177,"end":16805.113,"text":"預算才能支應多少服務量的那60個小時確實是可能對於某一些有在使用的身體傷害者是明顯不足的那這個部分請中央跟地方還是要去做一定的溝通最後問一個時事的題目就是自殺率的問題部長我們"},{"start":16809.434,"end":16824.326,"text":"我們在113年十大死因統計自殺死亡首度突破4000人比前一年多了164那特別是15歲到24歲15歲到24歲的自殺率從2014年每10萬人5.1攀升到2023年"},{"start":16838.894,"end":16861.794,"text":"10.9也就是說從2014到2023增加了一倍增加了一倍那我們衛福部有計畫在提供15到45歲每一個人每一年三次免費的諮詢服務這個期限是到"},{"start":16863.448,"end":16887.805,"text":"2025年也就是今年年底會結束會不會延長這個應該一定會延長一定會延長喔一定會延長對因為我看你們的統計就是使用這項計畫的滿意度高達96%就表示這是一個很好的計畫那可是呢我最後再點出一點"},{"start":16888.826,"end":16917.242,"text":"就是這個方案在112年推出的時候每個月平均可以服務到接近3500人可是從去年從去年的7月到今年5月這11個月的平均量能降到只剩下2100人也就是說量能"},{"start":16918.963,"end":16930.212,"text":"我們的統計就是服務的滿意度很高可是量能減少可是自殺死亡的人數增加不懂我的意思嗎這三個"},{"start":16938.366,"end":16954.758,"text":"這三個數據是有衝突的這時間的關係所以我讓你們待會去做研究參考好不好好就是說到底為什麼諮詢的效果我們覺得不錯可是呢來使用這個計畫的人數降低"},{"start":16964.755,"end":16971.246,"text":"然後自殺的人數增加這個可能到底盲點在哪裡"},{"start":16976.952,"end":17002.755,"text":"跟委員報告我們在去年8月份的確是有把這個心理健康支持的方案的這個服務的對象有擴大到45歲那其實除了新建市這邊推動的這個心理健康的支持方案之外其實在教育部這邊他們也透過修正學生輔導法來增加校園的一個輔資的人力那另外呢其實相關的部會也有推動他們自己的心理健康支持的方案"},{"start":17003.175,"end":17023.974,"text":"所以剛剛委員特別提到說使用我們的心理健康支持的方案感覺上人數是有減少這個其中一個可能的原因是因為相關的部會也有提供心理健康的支持各部會所以你這樣子的說法就是是從去年7月其他的部會才推出"},{"start":17027.662,"end":17045.096,"text":"應該是說相關的部會其實他們持續都有在推出這個心理健康支持的方案而且有在做一些滾動的修正所以說可能大家的這個服務方案越來越精進所以說不是除了衛福部的心理健康支持方案之外其實求助的管道也變多了"},{"start":17045.536,"end":17066.385,"text":"你這樣子的講法我可能沒有辦法接受不過我還是可以讓你們待會去跟各部會討論看看因為我剛才講的這三個數據確實是有衝突的我們來把真正的原因找出來好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":17075.602,"end":17084.33,"text":"本部會議宣導全部結束委員謝龍介、楊瓊英、葉元之所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那先要做一下決議"},{"start":17088.735,"end":17107.851,"text":"第一 說明及宣導完畢第二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定第三 討論四項第三案有關於身心障礙者權利保障法部分條文修正草案 案"},{"start":17109.452,"end":17130.474,"text":"令擇期繼續審查那這部分我還是請部長這個要趕啦速度要趕一下 拜託一下因為剛剛你剛剛聽到廖委員講他一次飲用60個小時那個等於是一天兩個小時換委員的那個提供的是一天一個小時廖委員剛剛提供的飲袋是8小時 他還覺得不足"},{"start":17132.5,"end":17156.889,"text":"真的是非常有問題的一件事情我覺得你們行政機關如果趕快大步去做一些調整基本上應該是可以及時來做一些更好的處置對這些需求者我們一個大部面對一千多名的身障朋友提出來的個人助理竟然有這麼多的狀況我覺得這是"},{"start":17160.493,"end":17177.723,"text":"要討論的啦,要積極應應的啦,好,謝謝。好,那,呃,對不起齁,就令哲理繼續討論,所謂的申請法的23的案,然後再,我們現在先休息10分鐘,"},{"start":17180.166,"end":17206.932,"text":"讓各位用餐那用餐完之後我們就會討論事項第一案第二案來進行審查那宣讀事項還會有十幾分鐘那現在公告會議本案相關人員可以先行離席也就是說你不是第一案第一案的相關的官員你可以先行離席你有看到很多人已經吃飽了沒有吃飽了可以留下來吃飯現在休息十分鐘十分鐘之後我們會繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":17215.102,"end":17215.304,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":17217.072,"end":17218.112,"text":"很熱鬧很熱鬧很熱鬧很熱鬧很熱鬧"},{"start":18008.325,"end":18010.108,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那請醫事組醫事領域來做法案的討論"},{"start":18015.356,"end":18037.149,"text":"老人福利法第48條條文修正草案委員劉建國等17人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案現行法條文對照表委員劉建國等17人台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正第一項第三款首句文字丙等或丁等為不合格以及修正第四項第二句文字丁等為不合格予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議"},{"start":18038.73,"end":18059.699,"text":"第一案第48條第一項第三款及第四款如下三違反第37條第三項規定規避妨礙拒絕檢查或未提供必要文件資料及協助四前三款外有其他重大情勢足以影響服務對象身心健康第四項前段如下"},{"start":18061.653,"end":18074.305,"text":"前二項停辦期間屆滿人為改善或令其停辦而拒不遵行者廢止其設立許可增訂第七項及第八項如下老人福利機構經主管機關評鑑評鑑不合格者"},{"start":18077.208,"end":18102.339,"text":"因限期令其改善借其未改善者处新台币六万元以上三十万元以下罚还借其未改善并得按次处罚请接重大者得处一个月以上一年以下停业处分停业期满人未改善者得废止期设立许可其属法人者得令其解散本法中华民国全年全月全日修正之事"},{"start":18103.2,"end":18117.519,"text":"條文施行前已經主管機關評鑑為平等或丁等之老人福利機構適用修正前之規定提案人委員劉建國蘇清泉連署人委員林月琴王振旭陳盈"},{"start":18118.54,"end":18136.364,"text":"現在宣讀身心障礙者權益保障法第53條條文修正草案委員徐宇珍等18人委員邱振軍等19人委員林月琴等17人委員陳金輝等18人台灣民眾黨黨團委員范雲等17人委員邱若驊等17人提案關西文書11006882號"},{"start":18139.465,"end":18165.62,"text":"委員盧明哲等19人委員傅坤祺等24人委員洪孟凱等17人委員邱若驊等17人提案關係文書11010755號條文對照表委員徐宇貞等18人提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需要者優先呈坐之博愛座予以現行法同"},{"start":18166.36,"end":18189.298,"text":"委員邱振均等19人提案第三項第二句與委員徐宇珍等18人提案同第四句文字座位修正為並第五項倒數第二句為空運及水運第六項後段首二句為單因大眾運輸工具構造頓好設備限制或其他特殊情形予以現行法同"},{"start":18191.431,"end":18220.213,"text":"委員林月琴等17人提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需要者優先乘坐之優先席第四句文字座位修正為並令刪除車門前之文字至第四項與手具文字運輸業者後面加逗號第五項倒數第二句為空運及水運第六項後段首二句為"},{"start":18221.334,"end":18233.861,"text":"但因大眾運輸工具構造、盾號、設備限制或其他特殊情形予以現行法同委員陳金威等18人提案第三項第三句及第四句如下"},{"start":18235.1,"end":18258.823,"text":"盾號老弱婦孺及有實際需求者優先乘坐之博愛座其比率不低於總座位數百分之二十予以現行法同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者及其他有實際需求者優先乘坐之優先座"},{"start":18259.443,"end":18281.413,"text":"莫具為並是需要標示或播放提醒禮讓座位與其他有實際需求者之僅與與與現行法同委員范雲等17人提案第三項第二句第四句以及第六項與委員林月琴等17人提案同與與現行法同委員邱若驊等17人提案關係文書11006882號"},{"start":18284.594,"end":18313.016,"text":"第三項第二句與台灣民眾黨黨團提案同予以現行法同委員盧明哲等19人提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需求者優先乘坐之優先席予以現行法同第四項及第六項與委員林月琴等17人提案同第五項倒數第二句為空運及水運等予以現行法同"},{"start":18314.639,"end":18329.826,"text":"委員傅坤祺等24人提案第三項守據為大眾運輸工具應考量通用設計之概念並規劃設置便於各類身心障礙者行動與使用之無障礙設施及設備並於聚墨增列"},{"start":18330.566,"end":18347.057,"text":"公車停靠站應依周遭環境配置並設置身心障礙者專用停靠搭車區予以現行法同委員洪孟凱等17人提案第三項第四具文字座位修正為並予以委員魯明哲等19人提案同"},{"start":18348.14,"end":18360.457,"text":"委員邱樂華等17人提案關係文書11010755號第三項前三具與委員陳金輝等18人提案同予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議第一案第53條"},{"start":18363.28,"end":18380.22,"text":"修正第二項文字設政主管機關為社會福利主管機關修正第三項第二句如下為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需要者優先乘坐之優先席"},{"start":18381.16,"end":18406.752,"text":"並修正第四句文字座位為並第四項首句國內航空運輸業者後面增列逗號修正第五項文字空運後面之頓號為及第六項及第七項與委員林月晴等17人提案同予以現行法同提案人委員劉建國蘇清泉連署人委員林月晴陳瑩王正旭宣讀完畢"},{"start":18452.386,"end":18462.104,"text":"好 謝謝 現在進行老人福利法第48條條文修正草案 計兩案之討論先請行政單位說明 接著再請委員表示意見"},{"start":18468.876,"end":18482.212,"text":"還有兩個提案,一個修正動議修正動議是行政機關認可的請說明今天兩位委員我們今天要在台上,因為所有人都還在現場"},{"start":18484.534,"end":18512.899,"text":"好 等一下如果有意見要表達的時候就請到備詢台這樣因為手影都還在現場OK 好 請說明 來跟各位委員報告那這個這條委員版的修正的目的其實主要就是希望讓現行老人福利法的條文和長照服務法的條文對於這一類同樣收住同樣類似機構同樣性質類似的個案那在管理機制上也能夠一致所以我們建議"},{"start":18514.437,"end":18532.236,"text":"方向上我們敬表尊重那在法治文治的技術的部分我們建議是不是可以考慮參採劉委員今天有出來的一個修正動議那委員可以參看那我簡單的說明一下就是因為"},{"start":18533.457,"end":18560.816,"text":"現行的老人福利法的部分如果我們這個他如果憑鑒不合格的結果照原來的條文那他仍然會和長照服務法中間會在後續的憑鑒不合格的效果上面會有處理先後稍微有一點點不一致長服法會直接先限改再處罰還但是如果是照老人福利法原來這個提案修正版本的話會不會先處罰還同時命限改"},{"start":18563.398,"end":18580.372,"text":"那個兩邊的那個流程會不會太一致那考慮到現在這個剛才這兩類機構其實目前在市場上第一個是行政機關有很多現在把兩類機構都放在同一個單位管理那第二個也有很多的機構實際上大概是由同一個經營團隊在營運"},{"start":18582.634,"end":18603.147,"text":"那我們會建議在法制上是不是有可能就盡可能取其完全一致所以我們建議是可以採取這個劉建偉劉委員的這個修正動議的版本那主要的差距就是在把現行條文第三項的這個經主管機關平建偉秉等丁等的部分刪除"},{"start":18604.161,"end":18619.033,"text":"然後第三款第四款對調因為考慮到文字的關係對調另外在這個這一條後面增加兩項那就是把現行長符法對於這個評鑑不合格的狀況"},{"start":18620.094,"end":18646.639,"text":"他后续的处理就全部规定在最后两项里面那就是凭借不合格的话因限期改善借其未改善处六万以上三十万以下罚还借其未改善按次处罚情节重大者得处一个月以上一个月以下对不起我们建议这个文字稍微再调一下就是停业处分改成停办处分因为老扶法这边这个"},{"start":18648.803,"end":18675.669,"text":"老服法上面停業專門使用在對機構自己申請我暫時不營運用停業主管機關處分大概現在我們去檢索一下大概都是用停辦所以我們建議第三項後面這個就是一個月以上印一下停辦處分停辦期滿人為改善者得廢止其設立許可那其屬法人者得令其解散"},{"start":18676.989,"end":18690.342,"text":"那大概我們會建議文資做這樣處理那另外考慮到一個過渡性的條文就是後面會有一個修正條文實行前已經評定的部分的話那就還是他讓他評定效期可以處理不用馬上要去他會變成沒有評鑒的會變成沒有評鑒效果以上說明"},{"start":18695.007,"end":18696.008,"text":"主席的指示謝謝主席主席我想要請問一下"},{"start":18718.982,"end":18735.408,"text":"身心障礙區域保障法的53條修正53條修正部長不好意思現在在處理老年福利華不是說兩個可以一起但是條文的討論是一條一條來嘛好不好"},{"start":18736.445,"end":18738.806,"text":"現在進行老人福利法第48條條文修正草案的討論"},{"start":18768.153,"end":18779.906,"text":"剛剛微服部提出來的我比較擔心的是說因為你現在在後邊針對於本來過去評鑑事實上是加以稟定有牽扯到後端的輔導甚至"},{"start":18782.469,"end":18809.154,"text":"也就是他們能不能再繼續辦教育訓練的課程的這相關都有關聯性現在如果當然我覺得還是同意說你講說不合格我想問的是說後邊如果你改成不合格的話未來你怎麼去處理因為過去我們不管是各類的機構大概已經要進入到假以稟定事實上定一定事實上是要被停止嘛"},{"start":18811.003,"end":18838.538,"text":"甲乙丙的話 輔導的機制上可能也不太相同 甚至你們可能給的一些的也就是說 辦教育訓練的那個額度上也不太一樣 那在這樣狀況底下你們先把它拿掉 到底會不會有影響 還是說今天純法條 我們今天只是說因為不合格 不合格就60分以下嘛好 那就等於是丁嘛 那你的甲乙丙的話 你怎麼處理"},{"start":18839.878,"end":18841.201,"text":"可以先做一個說明讓你了解一下"},{"start":18845.078,"end":18870.233,"text":"跟委員報告目前如果我們直接把等地兌換對接到合格不合格的話那合格的部分應該會制止現行的優甲椅秉丁大概都會列到不合格秉丁都會列到不合格那我們也已經這個行政部門也已經做過一個盤點針對這樣的一個制度調整之後後續不管是委員所提示的教育訓練"},{"start":18871.334,"end":18895.474,"text":"公費安置資格甚至有一些相對應的可能會不會有一些補助計畫一些是不是只針對優等假等這一類的整個補助計畫的部分可能會涉及到行政部分的一些後續的操作我們大概都先都同步進行了一些盤點那這個如果制度在調整完之後我們都會配合著行政部分有些計畫或者是補助等等我們大概都會做相對應的整理"},{"start":18896.069,"end":18923.1,"text":"包括因為過去我們在看機構大概也有甲乙尤其是甲乙都還是會有一個輔導機制在那邊所以這個如果沒有這樣子的話能搭配的未來還是這個是會執行嗎原則上這個現有大概我們就會對到如果對於甲乙的部分那合格當然對到合格那盡可能我們措施能夠保留的我們就會保留那但是有些"},{"start":18923.72,"end":18949.848,"text":"你想保留什麼 因為合格不代表它事實上品質優它是最基本門檻 優大沒有問題 可是現在甲乙的話不管過去在拖延中幼兒園 他們都還是要變成是被輔導的那你們這邊還是會持續做嗎未來原則上針對合格現有甲乙兩級原來有的會做的那因為變成合格之後 我們還是會繼續操作好 宇森"},{"start":18952.625,"end":18954.647,"text":"針對於第48條我沒有搞錯"},{"start":18976.048,"end":18991.687,"text":"就是如果透過這個修正動議啊我可能有一些事情也要麻煩確認一下就是我們把第48條從現行條文調到這個修正動議以後的內容包括說部份隊有123在"},{"start":18996.359,"end":19012.004,"text":"現行條文裡面是經主管機關評鑑為瓶頂或釘等然後等等的處分需要做公告其名稱跟負責人的姓名還有限期改善那現在如果我們把它修正以後那變成第一項的前面"},{"start":19013.326,"end":19041.626,"text":"四款就是如果有出現前四款這樣的現象或的狀況的時候呢他就可以公告其名稱跟負責人的姓名跟限期令其改善這個部分沒問題那後面在第八項又增列了老人福利機構經主管機關評鑑評鑑不合格者應限期令其改善那如果不怎麼樣等等的那就會變成說"},{"start":19043.294,"end":19048.058,"text":"如果他是被判定是不合格可是又沒有前面四項"},{"start":19049.147,"end":19072.783,"text":"就是第一項的前面四款的狀況之下那就變成是反而是放寬就是說你要讓他先有限期改善的機制清醒以後才開始進行處分跟公佈這樣未來會不會有類似的狀況的出現這一點可能要麻煩先確認或了解一下再過來就是說有關於我們在剛剛月群委員提到福利機構的評鑑依照現行是"},{"start":19074.81,"end":19088.764,"text":"分為優等甲乙丙丁那如果是優等的我們很希望讓社會多了解這家機構做得非常好所以它得到這個優等的這個評鑑那它可以讓外界知道"},{"start":19090.092,"end":19104.8,"text":"他這個對於整個品質的這個自我要求還有對於民眾如果到這個機構來接受服務的話這可以很放心那如果未來我們只改成合格跟這個不合格那這樣對於一個機構來講"},{"start":19106.301,"end":19131.107,"text":"會不會說反正合計就好了社會有沒有辦法去把這個當他們得到優等的時候這樣的這個成果讓社會也能夠認同也能夠讓這個機構可以執行了更為他們更願意把這個品質作為他們一個持續要求自我能夠服務到的部分所以我是說這樣的調整是非常好"},{"start":19131.567,"end":19150.362,"text":"可是相對有哪一些的配套措施也希望能夠同步來處置跟委員報告因為這個我們現在看這個修正動議的內容我們是希望我們建議是說他未來能夠跟長符法的處理的機制是一致的"},{"start":19150.942,"end":19169.515,"text":"所以確實是他現在內容跟老扶法的規定會有一些不一樣的地方那不過針對公告機構名稱的部分因為評鑑的部分他本來就是不管他是合格或者是不合格這個部分他當然就是評鑑結果一定都會公告"},{"start":19170.416,"end":19199.375,"text":"合格的也會公告,不合格的也會公告所以民眾在知道評鑑結果這一段其實他還是會維持,效果是一樣的那因為他整個機制調整成他如果不合格會先限改所以大概照一般法制的做法限改期間不會馬上去公布他的姓名那這個會跟那這個部分調整的結果確實會跟現行的長符法是用一致的方式來處理那委員提示的第二個部分的話"},{"start":19202.324,"end":19205.577,"text":"抱歉委員是說這個有考慮到"},{"start":19207.775,"end":19230.934,"text":"我應該好我先一個是公告姓名然後第二個我稍微再問一下我現在在問什麼就是說如果用現行條文的話出問題優等的部分不是是可以立即就啟動了處分因為它已經違反了這個相關的要件所以它就可以立即啟動處分如果我們現在把它調整以後呢"},{"start":19232.075,"end":19244.788,"text":"萬一他沒有違反這個第一項的前面四款的狀態之下他是被判定是屬於不合格那你回來給他一個寬限期這樣其實是相對是"},{"start":19248.031,"end":19272.887,"text":"當然這個我們也要去確認一下有沒有可能出現這樣的狀況如果這個是零機會的話我們就不擔心嘛那萬一是有機會出現說這個機構是不合格可是他又沒有回返1234這樣的狀態之下其實這樣的放寬我們還是要很小心那第二部分就是說有等因為像以醫院評鑑為例如果我們一家醫院"},{"start":19273.607,"end":19284.18,"text":"他被評鑑是優等的時候他就很高興的說我是優等當然合格也是一種表達方式只是說以前之前的這個我們可以透過優等這樣的這種讓社會讓這個機構知道他的"},{"start":19289.887,"end":19316.673,"text":"品質是可以受到信賴的這個有比較優於只是用合格來表達出大家評鑑的結果啦是跟委員報告評鑑優等的部分那站在跟老扶法和長扶法接軌的就是這個規定一致的這樣角度來看的話我們未來修正老人福利機構評鑑的規定修正因為他也有授權去訂評鑑的作業辦法"},{"start":19318.593,"end":19340.315,"text":"在平建作業辦法裡面我們也會參考現在長照服務機構的平建作業的規定它一樣就是針對平建優等的部分它另外有一個就是合格裡面特別好的有一個優等的定義原則上我們也會參考這樣的機制後續在老服務機構的平建裡面我們把這樣的架構也會納進來"},{"start":19341.656,"end":19362.948,"text":"所以這個特別用心的老服機構他還是有一個可以讓他去表彰他做的很好的方向這個我們會來我們會一併來納進來在授權的法規裡面來處理好好謝謝那針對48條前面的部分就是我剛所在重複說明了那部分了解這還是要先"},{"start":19364.028,"end":19385.808,"text":"先確認看看就是有沒有可能出現這種告息不合格可是又沒有辦法去第一時間就讓社會知道這一家其實在要把我們的這些我們長者要送到這個機構的時候要注意的事情報告召委這樣對嗎"},{"start":19387.373,"end":19393.862,"text":"是啦,我認為代理署長可能會說他對阿扁引渡回來,結果他就被投行逮捕了這有點危險"},{"start":19404.416,"end":19419.835,"text":"危險知道齁今天特別提到那個記憶有些狀況可能就要小心一點好不好所以以後要答覆這個委員的槌選就他講123你就直接回答123你不要從321回覆齁回到最後你1就忘記了齁"},{"start":19421.156,"end":19440.049,"text":"他的意思就是好像感覺比現有這樣的一個規範更鬆啦但是現有規範是直接就告發了嘛對不對但是現在感覺還有讓他限期改善但是他後面有個但書他是可以連續按次處罰啦"},{"start":19442.851,"end":19464.746,"text":"之前只有一次華應該這麼講,我可以這樣解釋嗎?是不是有解除汪委員的疑慮?看怎麼樣的解釋都可以,我是這樣他最主要是比照護理之家還有長照機構的處理方式原則上是這樣謝謝委員我講完你講完再講一次"},{"start":19468.729,"end":19471.951,"text":"沒有沒有沒關係 陳昭司委 不好意思那我再請問 謝謝就是教委跟衛福部很快就是把這個能夠這個評鑑辦法一致化不要有等地制的有合格跟不合格是可以或不可以那這樣有一致的評鑑方法那剛剛對於停辦跟停業的說明"},{"start":19493.141,"end":19516.632,"text":"好像我們現在就是也清楚了因為有不同的定義那我想請教一下那個剛剛王正修也特別提到對於優等的部分那個鼓勵措施因為剛剛也以醫院評鑑為例過去是像醫院評鑑如果被列為優等的時候他被評鑑的時間或是他享受他可以的那個時間是比較長的那我們這裡現在有任何鼓勵措施嗎"},{"start":19520.874,"end":19542.364,"text":"就是說比較具體的鼓勵措施對優等 謝謝代理署長跟委員報告現行的老人福利機構它的評鑑效期是都一致的優甲等跟乙等它的效期還是一致的目前是略分開請問現在多久評鑑一次四年現在也是四年評鑑一次"},{"start":19543.268,"end":19550.82,"text":"四年評鑑一次但是優等也是一樣也是一樣目前優等沒有特別延長四年評鑑一次是不是有點長"},{"start":19552.797,"end":19581.659,"text":"沒關係這個可以再請斟酌一下考慮因為即便醫院是一般是三年就要評鑑一次這四年當中的變化改革等等等等這個可能還是再考慮一下那個評鑑的反正大家都是一致化就所有長照體系現在就是一致化的來管理那剛剛你說四年一次我現在瞭解那限期改善部分有沒有定一個限期的部分當你發現有缺點的時候就是那個限期有明定方法嗎"},{"start":19583.462,"end":19606.423,"text":"有明定他的時間嗎那可以改善幾次等等是不是也有一致的這個目前現期改善是只有一次那改善的期間那就看他當時評鑑不合格的項目就平等或丁等那個造成他最嚴重的項目那短的大概會只有一個月那時間到就開始進行負評的動作"},{"start":19608.005,"end":19636.48,"text":"那最長有到 我記得有到六個月的六個月內讓他完期的 完 完全改善有的如果是比較 尤其是如果是涉及到硬體的部分他給的改善期間會稍微長一點OK 那謝謝 因為過去你這個放在甲乙丙丁 不管是形象問題還有很多後來的申請補助等等有時候我們知道就差一分嘛70到79 然後到80就完全是不一樣的等地嘛"},{"start":19637,"end":19651.71,"text":"他們對他們來說整個這個壓力為了那一分整個書面作業做的這個非常努力這個部分謝謝但是我剛剛聽到說多久評鑑一次四年評鑑一次我真的請代理師長能夠好好的思考一下四年有很久喔"},{"start":19652.85,"end":19679.508,"text":"就任何事情可能這個主管人或誰誰工作人員都已經不要換幾輪了那整個的品質是否能夠繼續維持或是說你們也可以對因為這個需求越來越大你們也可以有一些抽查的機制那些抽查機制就是讓他有機會能夠去改善那到底改善多少時間我想我就尊重行政機關的一個做法好嗎就是在這個評鑑的頻率然後有時候會可以去抽查"},{"start":19680.348,"end":19688.797,"text":"那就是說等等等等或是使用者他們有一些反應的時候因為4年真的很久好嗎"},{"start":19691.444,"end":19714.404,"text":"這個可以考慮一下嗎我們到時候在評鑑的辦法的那個設計裡面我們再來做一點處理那另外也跟委員報告目前雖然是評鑑都是四年做一次但是正常每年或者其他對於機構的有一些這個支持性的一些計畫大概也都還是有搭配對於機構的一些檢查或者是輔導這些"},{"start":19715.965,"end":19742.019,"text":"這大概都會在四年之內,都會有一些隨機性的一些動作有申請計畫的時候會再做一次,等於再做一次確認整個品質的一個確認對,這個部分也都有這樣也很好,好謝謝,那就謝謝趙委員提案跟衛福部及時修正,謝謝好,謝謝趙執委員的推薦來,梁委員你還要嗎?現在是處理A老化第四、八條就很奇怪了,這個是"},{"start":19743.2,"end":19758.489,"text":"心智上有點OK好好那我們福利福利華第48條文就依劉委員等在座應該都是所有的委員的修正動議在修正後通過好謝謝接下來"},{"start":19761.465,"end":19783.457,"text":"做以下決議 讓胡麗華第48條條文修正草案計兩案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論本案時由劉昭維 劉昭吉委員建股補充說明那請問本案是我虛交由黨團協商好好不需要謝謝現在進行"},{"start":19784.87,"end":19797.759,"text":"身心障礙者權益保障法第53條條文修正草案第11案之主條審查那每條條文先請行政單位說明接著再請委員來表示意見那行政單位要不要先說明剛在有關第18條的立法說明也要進入到這個相關"},{"start":19811.314,"end":19826.513,"text":"好 另外說明會一併 因為修正都有 我們的說明都有在影片會一併 好那先請行政機關針對這個生存法第53條來做一個說明 晚上再請楊委員然後再來看哪一位 再接續來做推選好 謝謝"},{"start":19833.255,"end":19855.299,"text":"跟召委及各委員報告這次申請法第53條的部分其實各個委員中間的版本基本上來說觀念方向都還算相近大概在文字上面會稍微有一點點不一樣的地方第一個是現行條文的老弱婦孺是不是有刪除"},{"start":19855.859,"end":19870.415,"text":"那有的委員是有維持有的委員版本有維持有的委員版本大概還是先維持住那第二個是對於這個將來席次用的名稱那目前有使用博愛座優先座或者是優先席"},{"start":19870.996,"end":19890.219,"text":"大概有三類委員用的文字稍微有點不一樣以博愛做來說大概是我們看到是徐宇甄委員、邱振軍委員、陳金威委員、邱若驊委員的版本用優先做的部分那是民眾黨黨團的版本和邱若驊委員的另外一個版本使用優先席的部分"},{"start":19890.66,"end":19900.872,"text":"看到是林月琴委員版本范雲委員盧明哲委員以及洪孟凱委員的版本大概三個委員大概在這個上面稍微有一點不同那唯一只有"},{"start":19902.271,"end":19921.782,"text":"富坤級委員的版本在文字上面稍微不太一樣他還在這個條53條裡面還納進一個通用設計的部分那我們的意見是我們建議是不是考慮就是如果是可能的話是不是可以考慮第一個在文字精簡的角度來看這個"},{"start":19923.743,"end":19951.231,"text":"我們會建議是不是老弱婦孺的這個部分的文字就不使用那文字統一我們會建議是不是以這個我們先前行政院在研擬的時候我們會考慮建議是不是用優先席那一方面也幫這個開玩笑說也幫台鐵已經貼上去的標誌他就用優先席可以稍改一點點那這個大概是這樣這個大概是我們初步的建議那請各位委員參考謝謝"},{"start":19955.034,"end":19980.241,"text":"這個這個欸 署長你有有有回應不清楚的喔 勞動互補即便拿掉之後還是會有其他文字代替啦 叫做或有其他實際需要者啦這幾乎所有的委員都有這一句這幾乎所有的委員都有這一句是這樣啦 補充說明而已 好好 還要補充嗎沒有沒有了 沒有就請回吧好 謝謝委員好 OK來請楊委員 要完了之後再請 越請委員 再請昭知委員好好 OK"},{"start":19984.018,"end":20005.875,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下署長請署長署長我們這個修正不管老弱富足有沒有留著都會有其他實際需要者"},{"start":20007.286,"end":20034.496,"text":"那我想要剛剛我聽署長的意思是老幼復足您覺得可以刪掉我們建議可以刪除老幼復足跟其他實際需要者以我的看法我覺得最大的差別就在主客觀認定譬如說身心障礙"},{"start":20035.677,"end":20062.384,"text":"老弱富足可能是比較屬於客觀認定實際需求是我個人我個人認為我有需求對不對其實我們之所以會修正這個條文呢最主要的就是因為博愛座之前確實發生了一些一些爭端那現在你們對於對於我"},{"start":20065.049,"end":20087.202,"text":"我其實也是支持把其他需要者優先乘坐這樣子的概念入法只是要跟署長講的是很多東西還是必須要只有透過法律的修正並沒有辦法解決一切的問題"},{"start":20089.357,"end":20102.028,"text":"這個條文就最適用於剛才那一句話就是說還是必須要透過教育跟宣導要不然條文怎麼修爭議都會存在"},{"start":20105.051,"end":20131.949,"text":"是不是 是 確實如委員所說所以未來在這個剛才昭偉在在詢答的時候有提示我們有要求我們就是跟交通部這邊來配合未來在執行面的部分不管是宣導或者是相關的標示怎麼樣能夠做得更清楚更完整那這個部分的話那我們也會努力的來朝這邊讓未來操作的時候民眾使用會更方便標示宣導"},{"start":20133.09,"end":20161.267,"text":"還要加教育啦我覺得就是就是我們這一次修法只是把純客觀認定的東西又加了一個主觀就個人主觀的認定我有沒有優先那我覺得這個沒有加上教育跟宣導問題會比原本的條文更容易產生糾紛"},{"start":20163.309,"end":20175.598,"text":"知情面我們會提醒你們一下知情面我們會這個宣導的部分我們會努力的來加強這個行政部門一定會努力來做好 謝謝署長 謝謝委員接下來請林業勤委員"},{"start":20201.292,"end":20221.578,"text":"主席可以講話嗎我們現在是主張改名為優先洗我想剛剛院本也是這樣為什麼引用澳日的經驗的話就是用優先洗不過剛剛我們養藥委員當然有提到說如果事實上是眼睛肉眼可見的話原來的那個老弱婦孺"},{"start":20223.547,"end":20249.182,"text":"那有些委員有放有些委員沒放可是我建議還是不要放因為我覺得會有爭議很多時候都是先如果老弱婦孺如果名字改成優先席的時候老弱婦孺那個老又是會放在前面那這幾年幾乎發生的媒體呈現的都是老人跟我們的青年發生這樣子一個認為說我"},{"start":20251.023,"end":20262.731,"text":"年紀比較大你要浪作一個是覺得說因為我有需求啊所以如果改成優先席的話那我認為在這邊應該事實上是有實際需要的人"},{"start":20264.119,"end":20289.815,"text":"甚至有時候很多時候不外坐已經都車子很空也沒有人坐的時候大家也都不敢坐所以這時候沒有其他人需要的話就是我沒有其他座位的時候我就可以優先坐優先坐這個我覺得應該要考量的是這個因為有時候外表看不出來可是有時候空間上就是我有需要的時候我是不是就可以先來坐所以誰優先這不是需要"},{"start":20290.655,"end":20311.051,"text":"別人來認知我自己認知我自己有需要的時候那我當然也認為剛剛楊教委員提的很對就是說這個還是要透過教育可是我覺得就是說今天衛福部後來明明有搭配的措施像宣導媒宣去強化這個概念所以"},{"start":20311.618,"end":20327.631,"text":"也希望你們能夠漸漸的減少掉如果改為優先席的時候要漸漸的把這個對立的狀況齁能夠拿掉齁以上是謝謝委員好謝謝林委員嘿再請招致委員嘿我們再請歡愉委員齁謝謝"},{"start":20330.316,"end":20333.757,"text":"謝謝主委 第一個有關優先作法當然我不會非常的堅持但是那個座 你先坐那個座就是代表名詞跟動詞優先座很口語化優先席比較老人或等等就是說席次其實這個是比較文言文所以我的版本裡面是優先座 你先坐嘛"},{"start":20352.743,"end":20367.441,"text":"所以名詞跟動詞都兼顧當然剛剛這個代理市長說已經有人先動了對不對但是他事實上你也現在同意說他的很多字其他的字眼也是要改嘛也是要改嘛這第一個就是說我我希望是用優先做的理由是這個我剛剛就"},{"start":20368.482,"end":20383.397,"text":"很清楚很簡單你選擇就是你可以選擇這是第一個那第二個就是說這個我也同意這個老肉婦孺這個部分因為很主觀有人到七八歲還是很健康有人可能四五歲那個老包括這個壯士大家都會對定義不清楚那這個"},{"start":20387.741,"end":20407.961,"text":"這個部分這個字眼這個字眼我也同意就是說不放進來剛剛您也做說明那第三個我現在再確認一次我們這間做法這個是做法不是雖然例子很多發生在捷運等等但是這個是公共運輸的作為請問我可以請代理市長再確認一下這是試用範圍嗎就我們今天改了這個以後試用範圍你可不可以稍微念給我聽試用範圍"},{"start":20410.343,"end":20418.831,"text":"原則上我們常見的不管是公車、鐵路、高鐵都會適用這個部分都會適用就是捷運嘛對捷運也會適用應該沒有遺漏這幾個我們常用的大眾運輸工具都會適用"},{"start":20427.699,"end":20441.688,"text":"常用的 有不常用的嗎就是一體試用嘛就是有曾經有被安上這個所謂的博愛座的就是現在在試用的交通運輸工具的範圍現在有在試用的不會因為這個這一次的校正"},{"start":20442.946,"end":20461.201,"text":"那另外就是說過去我們曾經有人戴著公益團體的名稱穿著背心那他就是覺得扮演那個所謂的這個叫別人做好事的那自己就叫人家站起來就是他會說你要站起來讓這個人作戰我想你聽過吧代理你聽過吧對不對那我們可不可以禁止這些行為"},{"start":20462.644,"end":20479.431,"text":"目前在條文上面我們是沒有禁止人家去勸人家去那個啦那這個這一段我們是還是維持一個比較鼓勵第一個是坐在這種優先座位上的民眾那如果有看到有比他更需要的那能夠主動的來鼓勵"},{"start":20481.332,"end":20509.214,"text":"但是我們不要別人來給好心或是說你來做這個我們就建立在一個大家公民素養跟群眾宣導的部分我們來做這樣的宣導這些穿背心的所謂的公益團體他也不知道那個多的人是不是不舒服啊你不能看他年輕就覺得他不會不舒服啊你站起來你怎麼扭這個多他是用眼睛去看的所以他我覺得這個行為還是盡量不要你當然沒辦法明文禁止但是是應該可以就是看到了就不准他們做"},{"start":20509.534,"end":20527.238,"text":"因為他們會上車來然後就在車上一天到晚叫他起來讓別人坐現在確實已經有一些宣導的訊息那確實在宣導說也要注意到有一些需求者他也許是屬於隱性的需求也不是那個所謂的公益者他能看得懂啦那就我還是請考慮雖然我不會覺得但是這個優先"},{"start":20533.459,"end":20544.407,"text":"做 我覺得這個動詞跟感受是很清楚 謝謝好 謝謝委員的指正 謝謝好 謝謝趙志偉的意見謝謝市長 我感覺先不用回去了來 請 歡迎委員來做詢問 謝謝"},{"start":20552.906,"end":20568.456,"text":"謝謝昭薇我想我們今天審查的這個不愛做改憂先習看起來是跨黨派的共識那當然大家希望說最近很多的衝突包含前幾天才有基隆的學生讓作後還被當眾標罵的事情在社群"},{"start":20569.136,"end":20595.754,"text":"就是轉傳 可見就是說這裡面有一些世代間的衝突讓做爭議那衛福部未來如何用教育或者是推廣宣傳的方式跟交通部合作也是大家的期待那我自己認為說優先席的設置那就應該是明文寫有需要的人優先乘坐使用那身體不適的年輕人有需要也可以做那用優先席的名字更能夠符合設置的本意"},{"start":20596.474,"end":20625.597,"text":"那老弱婦孺譬如說婦對不對我們就有性別平等的問題那她有懷孕的婦女當然需要可是不是所有的婦所以我覺得就是說證明很重要那目前我們可以看到不管是日本韓國很多世界上非常多的大眾運輸都是設優先席英文都是Priority Seat那執意的話優先席就是優先使用你有這個優先權那當然就是很多人會發現不愛做的名稱"},{"start":20626.277,"end":20644.51,"text":"好像是威權時代的產物那從轉型正義民主國家世界接軌的話我想更名為又先習那也是我們大眾運輸或者我們在概念上接軌世界的表現以上是好謝謝委員好謝謝其他委員要表示意見嗎"},{"start":20645.714,"end":20658.964,"text":"那沒有的話,剛剛趙志偉是建議他的要用優先做啦其他是希望優先洗,沒關係,來林委員請問怎樣這個是修正動議可以啊可以啊,請上來還是要一台一個版本來講都可以我不知道"},{"start":20675.621,"end":20698.739,"text":"這是衛福部版本嗎不知道為什麼特別所有的我看查過很多法規都叫設政主管機關你這邊特別改成社會福利主管機關的考量是什麼因為我不管查很多法都是設政主管機關所以我不知道而你這法特別要去改成社會福利主管機關想就叫"},{"start":20702.779,"end":20730.939,"text":"你考量的是什麼?跟委員報告齁這個部分其實是某個角度也是接軌我們後續現在正在行政院審查中就是還沒有通過的申請法的修正草案那目前在申請法修正草案裡面主管機關就是第二條的部分主管機關的部分有做一個調整那那個條文裡面目前我們大概在跟行政院報到行政院的條文裡面大概已經不是用設政主管機關我覺得不是說為了銜接那個"},{"start":20731.88,"end":20744.45,"text":"通過嘛 我現在想問的是說那你很多法律 幾乎我們看警政啦 衛政啦 社政啦 護政都用這個那我不知道這個為什麼特別在這邊要去做改變"},{"start":20746.516,"end":20765.808,"text":"當初我們會建議做一個條件就是如同剛才和委員報告那就是這個是不是有可能去做一個跟後續委員也很關心趕快要送進來的這個申請法的部分條文修正條案能夠做一個搭配那如果是今天通過的話"},{"start":20766.368,"end":20793.21,"text":"那當然我們也會 如果還是參照現有的立法例以設政機關這樣的文字的話那我們就會跟行政院 我們也會在行政院審查的過程裡面跟行政院做一個報告 那是不是還那反過來問你說 那你們送去的那為什麼要叫社會福利主管機關可不可以說明 因為以前我說我查了很多法之前的都沒有 不管是新憲犯罪防治法 新聞學這些都是用設政"},{"start":20796.096,"end":20810.746,"text":"因為現行主要的考慮是說這個大概在講社政我們大概比較習慣稱之為社會行政那但是因為我們也考慮到說在前一兩年剛剛通過社會福利基本法"},{"start":20811.286,"end":20839.229,"text":"那他對於主管機關大概就是希望說針對社會福利的主管那也是希望我們在這一次第一個在社會福利基本法修完定定完以後那第一個修正的一個比較大的主管法規裡面那我們想說是不是有可能把主管機關的名稱就搭配社會福利基本法就用社會福利主管機關上的文字所以你的意思是說現在社福基本法通過未來你所有的法都要改成社會福利主管機關嗎未來如果有可能的話我們就會逐步來處理"},{"start":20844.161,"end":20845.384,"text":"這兩個名詞大概都有在使用"},{"start":20852.511,"end":20880.252,"text":"不過社政的法規裡面傳統社政法規裡面大概都是用社政比較多那其他的法規裡面包括像國際法、洗線防治法這個監獄刑刑法等等大概甚至連我們先前所訂定的身心障礙者鑑定作業辦法裡面大概也都會用社會福利主管機關所以這兩個名詞目前都有在使用並沒有坦白說等於是一個不太統一的狀態"},{"start":20882.311,"end":20906.459,"text":"確實有點不太同意 社政比較多社會福利相對少一點但是確實是兩個名詞都有在使用中所以未來會應社福基本法而去做調修其他的法律嗎可能的話我們會一步一步來處理謝謝委員各位同仁"},{"start":20908.934,"end":20925.325,"text":"是不是看整個修正動議有沒有其他意見?剛剛有表達陳昭志委員所謂的優先做,給各位做參考看各位委員有沒有其他,有的是講優先席其實席位是連在一塊就好,一席、兩席、一位、兩位、席位、席位現在你存在台T"},{"start":20935.831,"end":20964.107,"text":"對啦,我們都不會說的時候,代替就已經,已經創,這個地方要參考一下,這個代替所以,這都沒經過副市長動議就搞出這個事情不是,這跟你沒關係,我是要說的給你聽啦所以,所以這就是,要怎麼說,這是這個,給各位看一下,等一下給委員參考啦然後這個,今天還有,其他委員有提供一些訊息啦"},{"start":20968.005,"end":20990.081,"text":"高鐵在博愛座,日本也叫做優先席然後還有韓國好像也是,沒關係各位這個交給我參考一下這個不會因為一個字就大家搞了南邊北側,不至於大家先看一下,這個字很重要"},{"start":20991.902,"end":21015.202,"text":"這一次跟我們在座每一席都非常重要,跟每一位也都是息息相關所以叫做謝偉謝偉,席位席位副大局有分下去嗎?先一併宣讀副大局,讓大家思考一下現在收到這個副大局議案,請議事院員宣讀副大局的內容再請行政機關表示意見,謝謝"},{"start":21016.958,"end":21038.808,"text":"請交通部會商衛福部就優先席標示訂定統一圖示供各大眾運輸工具業者運用統一全國一致性標示並請交通部會同衛生福利部研議優先席多元宣導措施請各大眾運輸工具業者共同宣導並服以人員廣播提醒"},{"start":21039.808,"end":21065.351,"text":"讓社會大眾發揮禮讓精神及同理心並尊重他人使用權力提案人委員劉建國、連署人委員楊耀、林月琴、王振旭、陳盈、陳昭芝、范雲宣讀完畢他們在討論那個字眼的時候你要先回應這個互代決議有沒有什麼樣的意見可以表達"},{"start":21070.681,"end":21074.604,"text":"這個有點主客觀的問題啦你們可以敲碗之後再回應沒關係來請可以可以王智希委員針對互代決議的吧還是席位好沒關係"},{"start":21092.405,"end":21119.955,"text":"我想大家對於那個席位還是座位本身如果從英文來看SEAT它的第一個發音是S就是比較跟席比較相近所以我想如果我們這樣從中英文等等的也許請趙志偉也可以讓針對這個字眼能夠做一些認同那就先席這樣聽起來會比較好拜託"},{"start":21121.755,"end":21140.601,"text":"好 那他們還在討論附帶決議 我們就來處理這一條這個其實我們的修正動議請各位委員都可以連署各位的認同就可以連署 好不好好 那我們這個身心傷害者權利保障法第53條的條文就是以修正動議劉靜國等所有委員 現場的委員修正動議後通過好 謝謝來 現在處理附帶決議"},{"start":21158.172,"end":21177.63,"text":"這件事應該是有三個層次問題今天我想大家大致上的面向都有提出來不只是個規格化圖改標準化修法的內容去做一些調整然後最主要是宣導另外一個執行面我特別有跟副市長還有代理市長講說你的這個列車長你的這個政務的人員還是車廂的"},{"start":21183.99,"end":21210.963,"text":"這個服務人員如果面對所謂的不管是其他實際需求者的一個認定可能都要有一些你們一些相關的一些規範跟作為流程好來請正事委員我並不是主張要百分比那我是瞭解說像這個優先席有沒有百分比的限制謝謝"},{"start":21213.09,"end":21224.24,"text":"跟委員說明就是現行條文這次跟剛才動議修正通過的條文現在都是維持總作業數15%是15%這算多還少我也不知道就說還不少"},{"start":21234.35,"end":21244.656,"text":"謝謝 謝謝說明好 謝謝前委員 來好 那也跟昭緯提供一個委員報告那個剛才昭緯這邊提的主要提的這個負擔決議我們會順道辦理好 謝謝好 前委沒有意見了那本案負擔決議就照案通過 謝謝"},{"start":21255.56,"end":21276.008,"text":"作為下決議 身心障礙者權利保障法第五三條 條文修正草案 暨十一案審查完略 並按鄰近審查報告提報 願會討論那願會討論本案時 劉召集委員見過補充說明那請問本案是我交由黨人協商好 不需要 謝謝那本會議到此結束 星期三早上九點繼續開會 現在休息 謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":21283.589,"end":21291.267,"text":"請各位委員來到這一個前面跟部長還有代理署長拍個照我們大家一起共同把這兩個法案這樣通過"}]}},{"id":"162781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a4475d7b1094ba551b9483b76f331b600da6ae3643212cc5f0ec021b76d1d478f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"09:17:21 - 09:22:11","影片長度":"00:04:50","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:17:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T09:22:11+08:00","duration":290,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":168.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.96659375000002,"end":289.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.649,"end":27.683,"text":"老虎58條我再補充一下剛剛陳哲瑞委員也講的重點了最主要還是台灣的這個住室機構不只是這個老人護理機構包含這個長照機構還有護理機構那兩個機構就是現有的長照機構跟護理機構的評鑑標準就是合格跟不合格那為什麼老虎機構把它分作加以稟定那我想我們就希望透過修法把它去一致簡單講就是這個樣子"},{"start":31.225,"end":49.552,"text":"這樣在刑事機關執行的時候我覺得是有一致性的處理方式這應該是一個非常正確的一個作為那第二件事情我必須要再特別提醒衛福部因為身權法我們今天分作第二案跟第三案那第二案是53條就是針對博愛生活的事情這個是將近50年來的過去訂定的制度"},{"start":56.375,"end":65.784,"text":"那確實不只是這段時間其實累積這四五十年來還是有很多爭議的狀況那站在這個主管機關微部必須要去審視面對這個事情應該如何來做一個更積極的符合社會大眾期待博愛座的定義、名稱跟範圍"},{"start":77.194,"end":88.323,"text":"跟執行的這樣的一個認定我想這個是一個非常重要的事情所以我們把它抽出來在第二案那第三案我要特別特別再提醒衛務部深圈館這次有將近快二十幾案也就是說有很多委員提出要來大幅修正深圈館的版本深圈館最主要還是要來回應"},{"start":102.775,"end":118.138,"text":"身心障礙者的這樣的一個需求跟相關權力的保障那勢必面對到很多的面向我們要有更多的這樣的一個討論的一個方式我記得十來年前的時候應該是在15、16年前當時的申請法也大修了三十多個條文那時候行政機關也積極的面對我們甚至於沒有用到委員會時間從要正式進到委員會"},{"start":131.42,"end":139.947,"text":"主條審查的時候我是藉隔壁的那個會議廳從下午兩點邀請所有各單位就像今天這樣各個單位因為身權涉及的面向很廣然後事權的機關也很多所以我們從下午兩點開始跟各個個別機關還有身陷障礙者團體面對面的還有很多的委員大家開誠布公的"},{"start":155.979,"end":163.473,"text":"然後針對很多的角度 很多的現狀 很多的執行面然後有鉅細明理的這樣的一個討論所以我們從下午兩點一直討論到晚上十點"},{"start":169.402,"end":188.834,"text":"我們也才能讓深圳我可以在那一次有這樣的具體性的進展的一個修滑的一個斬獲但是已經又過了現在十多年那各位委員也應所有深圳商業者朋友的這樣的一個期待跟提出了這樣的一個意見也希望我們可以快速的來進入實質的上的討論但是原本"},{"start":191.696,"end":198.199,"text":"院版似乎的速度有一點慢了我還是希望這邊提醒我們衛部部長還有相關的主政機關是不是可以盡速的把這樣的回應身心上期待的這樣的一個版本院版趕快提出來讓我們可以跟所有的委員來這個"},{"start":218.022,"end":236.856,"text":"要來替身心障礙者把相關的制度定得更完善更周全的這些委員有所回應這部分我特別要跟衛福部來做提醒除了今天有很多的身心障礙者朋友也開了記者會"},{"start":237.915,"end":265.202,"text":"不管是這個個人助理支持的這樣的一個服務還有自己生活的這樣的一個支持當我們有這樣的政策但是實際上實際上執行面確實打的大大的這樣折扣那問題的所在是在什麼地方有訂制度然後卻沒有辦法按制度來執行所以這有牽涉到所謂的真正的這樣的相關的一些配套還有相關的一些監督的一個機制必須真的是要"},{"start":266.994,"end":289.681,"text":"快速的來做相關的一些調整跟修正才有真正的來回應他們這樣的一個需求也讓政府真正的一個美意可以達到更好的這樣的一個進展所以我在這邊做一個重要的補充所以我還是希望期待我們衛部可以盡速把願板提出來以上跟委會做這樣的報告"}]}},{"id":"16776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16776","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbc8f16848c68b0942ad9f551ce5fa921f418e1797692e3a0d10185445af00ad1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、交通部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「因應高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月23日及6月25日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-23T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T12:09:00+08:00","duration":13125,"影片長度":"03:38:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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均照行政院提案通過3."},{"start":1868.423,"end":1871.505,"text":"增訂第二十一條之一條文 照行政院提案通過4."},{"start":1871.505,"end":1879.571,"text":"增訂第二十一條之二條文 除第一項守據 主管機關德修正為主管機關因外 須均照行政院提案通過5."},{"start":1879.571,"end":1883.433,"text":"增訂第二十一條之三至第二十一條之五條文 均照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1885.034,"end":1891.116,"text":"6.增訂第2節結名照行政提案通過 其第22條至第26條條文均照行政提案通過8."},{"start":1891.116,"end":1892.636,"text":"刪除第27條條文照行政提案通過 9."},{"start":1892.636,"end":1894.517,"text":"第47條至第49條條文均照行政提案通過 10."},{"start":1894.517,"end":1895.797,"text":"增訂第51條之1條文保留送院未處理"},{"start":1904.52,"end":1931.659,"text":"十一 第五十二條 第五十三條及增訂第五十三條之一條文均照行政提案通過十二 委員過疫情等人提案增訂第五十三條之二條文不予增訂十三 第五十五條條文照行政提案通過十四 並向審查官郡擬拒審查報告提報院會討論需交由黨法協商並推請蔡昭紀委員予以於院會討論時作補充說明主席宣告 通過這條文相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理 散會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1934.38,"end":1956.27,"text":"好繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部部長國家發展委員會主任委員交通部部長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就因應高靈化社會我國智慧公共運具發展及目標進行報告並被質詢宣讀完畢請經濟部郭智慧部長報告"},{"start":1971.584,"end":1995.738,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早首先感謝貴委員會邀請經濟部就因應高齡化社會我國智慧公共運具發展及目標進行專案報告敬請各位委員不吝嗇經濟部會配合交通部推動市區公車2030年全面電動化政策"},{"start":1997.076,"end":2014.697,"text":"辅导车厂投入国产智慧电动巴士整车及关键零组件开发,且符合载运轮椅使用者规定满足高龄化社会的公共运输需求,针对电动巴士发展现况分数如下。"},{"start":2015.595,"end":2032.078,"text":"一、自快電動巴士的開發經濟部起經已推動晨運汽車、華德動能、創意能源、紅華先進及總營汽車等五家業者開發出六款低地板電動大巴士"},{"start":2033.803,"end":2052.024,"text":"令電動中型巴士部分成運汽車、創意能源及金融汽車等業者亦投入開發成運及創意的電動中型巴士預計於115年第一季量產金融電動中型巴士預計於115年第三季量產"},{"start":2053.57,"end":2077.907,"text":"智慧电动巴士产业布局国内电动巴士业者针对整车底盘、动力系统、电池芯等关键技术研发及生产投资情形说明如下一、洪华先进,投资约新台币100亿元并于高雄桥德科学园区兴建AI智慧电动巴士工厂一起预计114年底年产能500辆"},{"start":2079.636,"end":2085.02,"text":"二期預估117年可達年產能1000輛的規模二 承運汽車與彰化惡靈園區投資約25億元建置整車與三電系統產線預估114年第四期量產整車年產能預估可達2000輛三個電模組年產能達1萬套三 華德電農"},{"start":2106.468,"end":2130.71,"text":"于台中无期投入约25亿元设立整车及底盘整合生产线111年第三季已正式投入生产目前整车年产能达1700辆三电模组年产能达7000套四创意能源预计投入50亿元于新竹设立新厂"},{"start":2131.371,"end":2149.247,"text":"规划导入智慧整车与模组化生产线综上所述随着我国智慧电动巴士产业发展自99年起继至114年5月底电动巴士挂牌达2083辆产值已达212.4亿元"},{"start":2152.011,"end":2168.826,"text":"在智慧电动巴士产值持续提升的同时,为进一步优化其营运效率,提升行车安全并实现高效能能源管理,国内相关业者积极投入智慧化系统之研发与应用,分数如下。"},{"start":2170.066,"end":2194.038,"text":"1.電動巴士是營運效率提升,仰賴先進車隊管理系統之導入應用。鑑於此,經濟部輔導國內業者整合全球定位系統、地理資訊系統與人工智慧大數據分析技術,開發具備車輛及時追蹤、智能派遣及油耗優化等功能車隊管理系統,並以獲得多家車廠採用。"},{"start":2195.239,"end":2223.806,"text":"二为强化电动巴士行车安全经济部积极引导国内产学研介投入先进驾驶辅助系统ADAS之研发与导入其中资车会所开发之AI内轮叉自动刹停系统以及工业院及国内车厂创意能源合作研发之车道维持辅助系统LKAS均已成功导入应用透过整车"},{"start":2225.222,"end":2252.216,"text":"透过整合车联网与AI感知技术以降低行车的风险为优化电动巴士能源管理经济部协助国内业者积极发展智慧充电排成系统鼎翰与心动智能等公司以建置示范场域以节省电力并延长电池的寿命以获多家国内客运系统的采用"},{"start":2253.513,"end":2265.926,"text":"整體而言 國內主要電動巴士廠之車型與研發能量已逐漸成型未來將持續加強開發符合高齡化社會所需之大眾"},{"start":2268.416,"end":2289.908,"text":"運輸車型及智慧化輔助系統以完善公共智慧運具普及與應用進而提升高齡者移動便利性與安全性實現友善高齡制社會目標以上報告及說明 敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝現在請交通部林國賢次長報告"},{"start":2301.583,"end":2321.87,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生今天要列席各位委員會就因應高齡化社會我國智慧公共運輸發展及目標進行報告請說明如後 請各位委員指教有關高齡化公共運輸辦理的情況鑑於國內高齡化社會的來臨交通部為建構高齡者"},{"start":2322.31,"end":2330.934,"text":"互助身心障礙者皆可以使用之友善通用化的無障礙環境目前各運輸機關系依據建築技術規則建築設計施工篇建築無障礙設施設施規範大眾運輸"},{"start":2338.138,"end":2362.05,"text":"工具無障礙設施設置辦法等規定並定期對所屬的人員辦理服務的課程設施操作訓練跟辦理觀摩能夠提供更友善的服務其中針對公路公共運輸部分交通部是透過公路公共運輸計畫來辦理各項公共運輸的措施主要針對高齡者外出時它的特性是較沒有尖峰的集中性質"},{"start":2362.91,"end":2387.48,"text":"那也比较不耐于长距离的步行因此除了增加公车路线外亦希望能调整相关的服务形态以利更符合高龄者的运输需求相关办理的情形分数如下一推动幸福巴士提高在偏乡的涵盖率那考虑偏乡部落的分散居民长期面临交通不便挑战为完善偏远地区的基本民行"},{"start":2388.18,"end":2414.193,"text":"本部公路局在105年开始就推动需求反应式公车公共运输系统DRTS现在改称幸福巴士由公路局协助地方政府规划路线并导入多元弹性之运剧局预约平台服务另外提供学生就学长者就医采买跟原住民区的文件站的接送等多元服务"},{"start":2415.117,"end":2440.18,"text":"那另外截至114年5月底子公路局已经在192个乡镇共493条路线其中包含62个偏乡239条路线推动幸福巴士其中幸福巴士通车共97个乡镇区326条路线幸福小黄通车95个乡镇区共167条路线全国偏乡的公共运输涵盖率可以达到94.4%"},{"start":2442.523,"end":2458.394,"text":"第三,公路局会持续来协助地方政府,就检讨固定营运的模式,希望能够配合当地的形态转型成弹性预约的服务,提高弹性预约的服务路线、班次跟服务区域来进行幸福巴士的服务。"},{"start":2459.324,"end":2476.257,"text":"第二大项是导入预约式的通用计程车服务因应高龄化社会跟行动不便者的运输需求交通部透过公路公共运输计划补助购置无障碍的计程车到2014年5月底止全国通用计程车的数量是1331辆"},{"start":2478.291,"end":2491.809,"text":"那另外交通部運輸研究所從108年開始就辦理愛接送預約式的通用計程車服務的事辦計畫並開辦了這個通用計程車預約整合系統那希望能夠提供民眾統一預約入口"},{"start":2493.431,"end":2518.671,"text":"跟主管机关自动化的集合作业那这些研发的成果呢已开放给中央机关跟地方政府向运输研究所申请无偿的授权使用目前已经有卫福部六个直辖市屏东县政府跟嘉义县政府完成授权契约的签订那第三交通部在114年3月6号透过修正通用计程车的补助作业要点"},{"start":2519.412,"end":2539.899,"text":"未來地方政府提出通用計程車的補助計畫的時候應該要規劃建置預約整合系統交通部會持續補助通用計程車的車輛數也導入通用計程車的特約制度來提高高齡者對於交通運輸的服務跟便利性第三大項是透過電動公車的計畫來實現公車全面無障礙化"},{"start":2544.034,"end":2564.369,"text":"首先为了改善跟提升我国公共运输发展的环境跟服务我们是透过公路公共运输计划相关计划的执行来协助地方政府跟客运业者购置地地板公车经查我国市区公车的无障碍比例从民国98年的7.2%已经大幅提升到114年3月的73.4%"},{"start":2568.152,"end":2587.69,"text":"其次为了实现永续低碳运输的愿景交通部又向行政院争取并且已经符合定2030年客运车辆电动化推动计划13年到19年的计划那希望能够达到2030年也就是民国119年市区公车全面电动化的目标"},{"start":2588.631,"end":2615.977,"text":"交通部藉由補助購車除了要求地方政府跟客運業者需要購置無障礙的地地板公車以外也希望能夠達到市區全面無障礙的環境同步要求車輛業者也要加裝先進駕駛輔助系統數位監控系統電池管理系統等設備這個資料也要上傳給我們公路局的監控平台以提供更安全的公共運輸服務"},{"start":2617.368,"end":2625.993,"text":"其次,截至2014年5月底止,電動大客車已領排的營業數量為2,028輛,金河定在打造中的1,260輛,合計共有3,288輛電動公車已準備上路。目前,經濟部輔導的有華德、承運、創意、弘華、總營等5家業者、6種車型可供地方政府及客運業者選用。"},{"start":2646.765,"end":2670.484,"text":"交通部将持续辅导车辆业者来开发更多的公车公路客运的车型供业者来选用加速达成这个目标第四大项是定定自驾公车实验运行的安全指引因应无人载具科技的兴起立法院107年已制定无人载具科技创新实验条例由经济部受理相关无人载具实验计划的审查"},{"start":2671.444,"end":2698.219,"text":"交通部优先聚焦在自驾公共运输的发展跟推动已经在113年底完成了我们自驾公车实验运行安全的指引这个指引可以提供经济部纳入餐采应用希望能够在推动自驾公车应用安全的前提下也能符合国内道路环境跟交通服务的实际需求第五大项工作是研艺高龄者T-PASS的方案"},{"start":2699.259,"end":2721.438,"text":"从112年7月开始行政院推动TPAS政策以来全国已经有20个县市政府推动28种定期票的方案经统计到14年4月止已经有1453万人左右来加值购买有11.08亿人次使用定期票证来搭乘公共运输"},{"start":2722.499,"end":2749.484,"text":"另外为利公共运输使用次数较少或跨生活圈使用的族群可多选择使用公共运输从今年的1月开始再推出TPAS 2.0的计划TPAS 2.0是公共运输常客的优惠2014年2月到4月已经有14.1万张的票卡达成回馈条件回馈条件是使用超过11次到30次回馈使用金额的15%使用超过30次回馈30%最高40%"},{"start":2751.724,"end":2776.99,"text":"累計回饋金額目前已經達到147萬左右那其次為利高齡者多搭乘公共運輸減少失言欲拒的使用我們鼓勵高齡者自願繳回駕照交通部課證研擬透過補助TPAS的方案提供自願繳回駕照年長者搭乘公共運輸的優惠目前方案還在研擬中希望能夠進一步來降低高齡者交通服務的負擔"},{"start":2777.99,"end":2791.512,"text":"那捷宇交通部将持续依据高龄者的需求检讨各项公共运输的措施发展导入多元弹性的服务方式并结合在地资源以利高龄者来方便使用上请各位委员不吝指教谢谢"},{"start":2793.083,"end":2818.149,"text":"好 謝謝其他單位書面報告請委員自行參閱並列入公報記錄現在進行詢答委員質詢前原例作以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記首先請陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":2830.882,"end":2835.038,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是請江東浦次長林次長"},{"start":2843.73,"end":2866.409,"text":"市長早市長我想我們交通部有推出很多智慧運輸系統整個發展的一個串聯但是我想我們有沒有盤點過到底我們在各地長者跟身心障礙者的需求跟我們現在所規劃的"},{"start":2867.91,"end":2897.15,"text":"包括幸福巴士幸福小黃或是智慧運輸系統真正或是我們TPAS所有你有沒有把你的專案計畫統整過對於我們年長者因為依照我們現在所有的資料顯示我們的長者是越來越多需要的人也越來越多雖然我們現在有長照可是我們更希望我們的長者是能夠利用"},{"start":2898.671,"end":2919.322,"text":"機會走出來的我覺得長照我們要做在前面是讓他們可以走出來去看很多的地方走遍很多的地方包括他的就醫包括他的所有交通的網絡他是沒有問題的所以如果網絡沒有問題他當然就不用自己開車了"},{"start":2921.221,"end":2937.79,"text":"如果網路可以OK的話那我相信我們就可以排除所謂在後端我們擔心是不是長者開車會不安全的問題所以這個部分其實都是一關一關連結在一起的"},{"start":2938.7,"end":2956.167,"text":"那次長我們交通部有沒有盤整過謝謝委員您提的非常重要那要盤整高齡者的運輸需求大概就像您提的要把他的區塊稍微區隔出來以類似屬於身心健康其實現在高齡者有很多"},{"start":2957.527,"end":2980.972,"text":"活动能力跟身体健康程度非常棒的非常好所以像这一类的我们鼓励他出游所以目前很明显的高速铁路台铁我们的国道科研一般公路科研甚至公车我们都有半价的高龄者的使用优惠所以这个部分是没有问题其实不是半价的问题65岁以上基本上"},{"start":2981.812,"end":3010.853,"text":"他的搭乘都本來就有優惠了現在是說這個網絡你今天從偏鄉要出來我都看到說哇你們對於偏鄉有一些推動幸福巴士幸福小航那請問你們的偏鄉你們著重點在哪裡請問如果台南市台南市是都喔是直轄市喔可是他在山區他算不算偏鄉"},{"start":3012.459,"end":3035.24,"text":"包委員您提的是重點偏鄉裡面就是地方政府認為它那個地方是屬於比較偏遠的譬如說我們台南地區像山上南西玉井以上有些主要路線沒有服務到的地方我們都可以來認定但是基本上目前的做法是如果那個地方有公共運輸固定路線我們基本上是不屬於偏鄉地段"},{"start":3035.76,"end":3064.463,"text":"那如果完全都没有公共运输路线可以服务甚至招商的过程没有人愿意那我们就纳入这个计划来处理所以您提的很重要里面我们有一个幸福巴士是属于小巴中巴之类的服务那比较弹性那如果他无法还有幸福小王啊因为幸福小王才是关键啊对对对幸福小王就是用计程车来担任公共运输路线的服务是啊他的付出票就要跟公共运输一样"},{"start":3065.343,"end":3077.7,"text":"所以其實我們一直在談的就是說你所謂的偏鄉沒錯如果說今天他有公車路線可以經過可是公車路線經過的班次沒那麼多那這個部分又怎麼認定"},{"start":3081.716,"end":3111.276,"text":"因為公車它還是會有所謂的這個所謂消費的問題跟狀況嘛它也不可以給你開一條線說我都了解的雖然我們現在要補貼可是這個還是補貼不足啊所以它還是會有運量的問題如果運量不足它還是不會開那條線可是就算開了可能就是一般可能在上下學的時候開了一般"},{"start":3112.216,"end":3133.447,"text":"那委員您提出重點我們固定路線的公共運輸因為固定班次嘛那會根據需求來那如果他的需求比較偏重就學或一般的上班可能他的時間跟高齡者的使用時間不一樣完全不同啊那我們也可以鼓我們也鼓勵縣市政府把這一類的提報幸福小黃或是幸福巴士的補充路線"},{"start":3134.247,"end":3157.309,"text":"所以這個並不違背他提報原則可以就對了只是說到時候再審查因為你剛剛有說啊他第一個優先要件就是說要公車路線沒有抵達的地方嘛對啊但是如果說公車路線他可能限定的是上學下學的下學那個這個下課的時間所以他有可能在這個部分"},{"start":3157.97,"end":3186.315,"text":"他就卡住了沒錯那你說喔這個次長有說了他如果在時間上沒有辦法符合長者或身心障礙者的需求我們就導入也可以導入我們的幸福巴士或幸福小房所以你看我剛剛的報告裡面有把固定路線可以調整成彈性路線這個都有縣市政府或鄉鎮公所來提出來所以我們是有這樣的一個彈性不是硬梆梆的"},{"start":3188.438,"end":3202.892,"text":"因為我們很擔心我們直轄市現在實在是有點好像切身為民好像直轄市的資源很多其實不是我們有時候在所謂的偏鄉明明我們山區就是偏鄉"},{"start":3204.213,"end":3221.21,"text":"可是在很多的條件當中又會被排除掉其實這是很不公平的好 市長跟委員報告一下委員剛剛講的確實是一個很重要的課題所以如果說像台南市有一些這個比較偏遠地區原來固定路線一天只開一班兩班"},{"start":3222.631,"end":3245.992,"text":"那中間沒有辦事的話 那這個部分我們都跟台南市政府來合作將原來的固定路線轉成那個幸福巴士的這個路線可以用中8或9人座或者是計程車來這個加密這個頻率那目前這個台南市也在像很多比較偏向的地方山上也推了很多小房的一個這個路線這個部分我們會跟台南市政府繼續來做這個合作"},{"start":3247.293,"end":3272.315,"text":"好 那另外一個部分就是說在我們智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫裡面我們現在台南有推出三個一個是我們東區域農路運輸走廊暨多叉路口的交通改善計畫另外一個部分是AI道安分析暨路口改善專家資源系統建置計畫另外一個部分是"},{"start":3273.836,"end":3300.256,"text":"114年台南市視障與弱勢行車行人與對車警告的系統計畫那這個部分我們東區運農路這個部分114年是1573萬然後AI道安分析入口的專家資源系統是503萬114年台南市視障與弱勢行人這個警告系統的計畫是252萬"},{"start":3302.858,"end":3318.015,"text":"好這個目前我們都提出了那這個市政府也16月12號審查意見在修正當中那這個部分要麻煩我們交通部要優先來配合"},{"start":3318.916,"end":3332.901,"text":"協助處理因為這個都是屬於我們入口危險的部分而且我們都希望說可以透過整個AI的分析來改善我們所有相關的一個智慧化因為"},{"start":3334.461,"end":3360.943,"text":"AI的狀況還有另外一點就是整個連線的部分怎麼所有做總檢討我覺得這個都要利用我們的整個計畫去協助雖然我們現在一直不斷的在每個月都有到案匯報可是到案匯報之後匯整起來包括我們發現現在其實很多點都沒有連線其實沒有連線是很危險的"},{"start":3361.664,"end":3388.509,"text":"所以在整個所謂高齡化或這個身心障礙者的智慧運具或是整個AI先進技術還有智慧化如何滿足所有通勤者的需求除了我們前面三項的計畫拜託我們交通部要趕快核准之外我們希望我們能夠對於我們市府很多高齡化還有身心障礙者的運具"},{"start":3390.842,"end":3408.847,"text":"剛剛我談的那個部分要怎麼協助要整個串聯串聯真的很重要啦其實市長其實交通運輸沒有串聯什麼都白搭啦他的使用度就不高啦如果你要讓他再轉車"},{"start":3411.035,"end":3440.355,"text":"你要教高齡化人口怎麼轉車長者怎麼轉車身心障礙者怎麼轉車那是不可能的嘛他就是要一次到位所以當沒有串聯的話沒有利用我們智慧運具基本上那是沒有辦法的所以我們怎麼協助市政府去做更多的這些規劃利用我們AI的技術智慧化的技術去滿足他們的需求還有通勤者的需求"},{"start":3442.15,"end":3467.343,"text":"點線面的串聯其實是比什麼更重要是謝謝委員您提的蠻重要的縣市政府或地方政府要非常清楚他們的不同地區高齡者的需求是什麼那您剛剛提到的一個是進入點就是接觸資訊的這個來源第二個是中間通行的路徑第三個是當地的場站能不能符合他的需求再來當然是上車以後的路線這個那三個計畫我們已經審查"},{"start":3470.525,"end":3496.999,"text":"完了再修正重所以应该会全力来支持谢谢委员我们大概再跟县政府一起合作再麻烦市长再跟我们市政府交通局这个部分因为我觉得我们不能是一个大计划在上面其实我们应该要深入没错深入的部分是市政府要做县市政府要做可是我们交通部怎么协助他们整个做串联"},{"start":3498.059,"end":3526.848,"text":"那個關鍵很重要串聯你那個審核的機制你一定要把這個前提擺在上面讓他們可以串聯點線面串聯讓他們在整個交通的一個轉運是沒有問題的那麼他的承搭率才會高運量才會高公共運輸服務裡面有個叫無縫化的過程所以這一塊我們也會透過無障礙小組我們每個機關都有一個無障礙小組"},{"start":3527.688,"end":3548.635,"text":"那我們跟王明德局長也常在互動所以這一塊應該沒有問題再麻煩一下我覺得這個對於我們所聽到的長者的需求或是我們身心障礙者的需求他的原則最重要的是無縫接軌無縫接軌這個部分才是重要的 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在"},{"start":3555.401,"end":3576.037,"text":"我們先確定會議事錄好不好好請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤沒有好那議事錄確定現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請部長郭部長"},{"start":3589.019,"end":3611.13,"text":"委員長部長好部長我們看到媒體報導伊朗準備要封鎖荷姆茲海峽大家都知道荷姆茲海峽是國際在運輸運原油非常重要的航道那如果封鎖了之後對我們的影響有多大呢請教部長"},{"start":3613.953,"end":3630.971,"text":"我們現在還在評估啦我們有各種不同的這個所以我們有掌控這個訊息我們當然是從上個禮拜開始我們就掌控這個訊息上個禮拜開始那您認為評估了之後如果陳真那應該會陳真的情況之下我們影響會多大"},{"start":3631.567,"end":3640.35,"text":"我們影響會根據這個國際油價的走勢是做不同的這個推論譬如說現在這個油價來到80塊這個區間我們有這個80塊的這個做法當這個油價來到國際油價來到100塊我們100塊有什麼樣的對策"},{"start":3649.193,"end":3667.223,"text":"包括我們要從哪個地方取得比較現貨的報價包括120、140我們都有做不斷的各種的方案去應對之那我們有多少的天然氣跟原油會從荷姆茲海峽通過呢我們大概目前來講這一個部分的話詳細的"},{"start":3670.265,"end":3694.811,"text":"我們大概目前為止大概會有多少我們現在目前所盤出來了目前來看應該是低於20%低於20%那低於20%呢這是目前我們所掌控的訊息所以換句話說封鎖了之後對我們是影響還是很大對我們影響就是說我們要繞過這個荷姆斯海峽然後這個影響對我們來講可能就是時間啦"},{"start":3697.132,"end":3712.257,"text":"所以你的成本一定會增加嗎時間啊時間會更長嗎時間當然會更長嘛那個運費的部分啦運費的部分能夠攤底下來其實不多啦攤底不多現在是這個市場的行情在漲的時候會影響到我們的油價那這個是我們都有推論啦"},{"start":3720.6,"end":3732.625,"text":"所以預估如果封鎖了荷姆茲海峽那麼原油有可能會漲我們都有一套這個計算的模式當然會漲所以這個會針對我們會有影響我們一定要審慎對峙我們當然是非常的審慎的來評估所以我們有各種不同的"},{"start":3743.63,"end":3755.076,"text":"各種不同的階段的影響評估我們在上個禮拜都已經做過好 上個禮拜開始應對接下來本席要跟你討論的我們請交通部次長也一併上來今天的主題是高齡化我國智慧公共運具發展的目標我認為除了長遠的智慧運作發展"},{"start":3767.522,"end":3793.859,"text":"是非常重要那公共運輸的部分呢我相信也必須要兼具的現狀落地有效如我們台中小王公車台中的服務員山海豚到梨山都是我們的所以在這樣的情況之下有很多的偏鄉所以早期大客車比較不容易進來的那所以呢我們民眾有時候等一班公車要等好久好久在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":3794.699,"end":3810.644,"text":"有時候根本沒有車可以搭在這個偏鄉那所以呢我們台中市府就推出了小黃公車用計程車來取代大客車依照固定的路線固定的班次不僅它成本來節省也讓長輩讓學童讓身心障礙者以及讓通行者都能夠更加的受惠那盧市長上任之後呢我們更擴大"},{"start":3821.468,"end":3827.133,"text":"小黃公車的這個政策我也參與其中我也參與其中 甚至我們涵蓋了原市區以及我們縣區的三海屯總共21個22個行政區162里超過的班次有有這個26萬班次使用的服務的人次有達到178907人所以小黃公車在整個補上運量"},{"start":3850.692,"end":3858.975,"text":"不大 但是呢它實際上是非常非常的有效能因為它可以將需求的這個關鍵搭配呢可以降低成本所以在這邊要請教我們台中的小王公車是不是地方創新是一個成功的典範 市長"},{"start":3871.834,"end":3875.576,"text":"所以本席要請教中央你是不是應該既然他是成功的"},{"start":3900.99,"end":3903.613,"text":"而且是協助那在這樣的情況之下是不是應該要主動盤點全國還有哪一些的區塊他是否可以導入建立一個跨部位的協調平台從交通從經濟甚至在數位發展的一起來推動智慧型的"},{"start":3918.251,"end":3932.914,"text":"小型運輸是謝謝委員這應該的這應該的對已經盤點到這個程度有些工作必須要重新思考哪些需求沒有被滿足所以你認同這個方向所以接下來我要請教經濟部長麻煩縣市政府多幫忙"},{"start":3933.394,"end":3948.587,"text":"縣市政府多幫忙 但是你中央要負責我們的經濟部長我知道這個對中央來講交通部他是主責但是我們經濟部我認為佔了很重要的角色也就是我們是不是可以透過中小企業相關的資源來協助車行的升級"},{"start":3953.791,"end":3971.483,"text":"車輛要升級啊 車輛不升級 它拍出來沒有辦法這麼樣的迅速有效第一個 車輛升級 比如說我們導入了電動車 數位派遣AI的排班系統 讓小王公車它不只是交通工具 它更是智慧交通的一個轉型"},{"start":3974.145,"end":3999.804,"text":"市長請你注意聽到 加上市長是是謝謝委員的這個垂行這個部分我們馬上回來這個嚴明一下子好 非常感謝市長你聽到了部長願意要協助透過我們整合中小企業相關的這個資源所以我們希望小車也能夠有大力量那地方敢做能做的我們也希望經濟部他不是只有盤關就像部長我非常的這個這個讚許你願意"},{"start":4002.526,"end":4008.089,"text":"一起跟交通部 我們從地方的資源 相關的中小企業資源 跟交通部一起來做那在這樣的情況之下呢 我們覺得整個永續的在地的這個交通新模式 它是需要去落實的所以目前我們補助重大 這個大增運輸的部分 都涵蓋在大型的營業者"},{"start":4025.237,"end":4029,"text":"那對於剛剛交通部經濟部都認可的我們的這個小黃這一類的小型微型的經營者也應該要建立更友善的營運獎勵這個營運的這個獎勵措施讓地方真正成如剛剛交通部次長所說的他是地方創新地方業者也能夠投入帶動整個這個經濟鏈的一個成長那是否可以擴及到我們這種小型微型的一個經營者"},{"start":4055.857,"end":4070.363,"text":"是謝謝委員吹薰這一部分凡是對我們國家這個中小微企業有幫助的這一些所有的這個推動活動我們中小企業署我們一定是不遺餘力全力以赴"},{"start":4070.643,"end":4092.028,"text":"非常的感謝因為剛剛我特別先請交通次長來回答喔那這個呢在交通部跟經濟部大家都是非常認可我們在地方探求民眾的需求那麼多久時間可以嚴厲一套這個方案獎勵措施告訴我們讓我們地方的微型企業都能夠能夠得到政府的支持肯定跟落實"},{"start":4092.908,"end":4104.978,"text":"是我們來跟這個中小企業署我想我們三個月內然後訪問這個所有的業者的心聲那麼看實際的這個可以產生什麼樣的效益我們三個月內可以提出來這一份的報告好那在討論的當中我也請交通部在這邊你要加入其中經濟部願意協助我們要謝謝我們希望在三個月內能夠得到一個答案交通部請回接下來本席要請問"},{"start":4120.29,"end":4140.723,"text":"部長再生能源我們再來討論一下目標你一再跳票是2026年是不是會達標我們希望能夠達標但是部長我們討論的能源政策呢我看到2025年再生能源的配比是20%但是到今年的上半年我們初估大概是16.3%後來又說要到2026年11月份才能夠達成我請問2026年的目標會再跳票嗎"},{"start":4149.808,"end":4167.565,"text":"報告委員2026年到目前為止我們很肯定的跟委員報告我們絕對不會讓他跳票2026年達到再生能源的20%不會被跳票因為本期今天看到這個在報紙上面你們說擴大無限量的發電量是否如此"},{"start":4168.533,"end":4171.734,"text":"是否如此 是要因應這個2026年不會跳票嗎 是嗎是 我們現在在尋求各種的跨部門的協商我們希望以2026年不跳票作為我們最重要的一個方式以2026年"},{"start":4185.939,"end":4189.482,"text":"不跳票的方式去尋找各種方式去落實接下來我們來討論原本強調的你的風光電太陽光的這個部分裝置容量2025年是達到20GWh的目標但是去年也宣布是跳票了"},{"start":4201.092,"end":4209.078,"text":"那你跳票也是延長到2026年但是我們看到光電的部分離20GW的目標我們還缺了5.49GW的一個缺口那學者業者都認為那一年如果增加兩個GW就了不得了那在這樣的情況之下都不看好2026年的這個打標會不會再延後"},{"start":4223.669,"end":4240.608,"text":"光電的部分我們確實有碰到盧委員所垂行的這樣的一個困難但是我們在其他的方法其他的部分譬如說我們從這個風電還有這個地熱或者是水利我們希望能夠再加快"},{"start":4241.269,"end":4243.93,"text":"所以剛剛部長你的回答也就是太陽光太陽光確定2026年還是達不到還會再延後我們2026年的11月達標還是我們第一個任務我們一定要想辦法達標我們只是說怕萬一"},{"start":4260.875,"end":4272.025,"text":"怕萬一因為我們還仍然需要有一些地方政府的支持請問的是結果論喔2026年你達到20幾個月會達標嗎以目前我們的規劃會以目前的規劃 但是落實的腳程呢"},{"start":4283.211,"end":4298.341,"text":"也是會 會達標落實的腳程也會達標是 但是我們需要所有國人大家共同的配合你有這個但是就是表示目前是有疑慮的沒有 這個是我們對於法彼此的認知啦那我肯定的告訴你會達標好"},{"start":4301.103,"end":4307.586,"text":"2026年你認為太陽光電的部分呢是2026年會達到20%或是會達標那接下來本席跟你討論風電的部分風電2025年呢那麼你要達到5.6GW但是現在大概是3GW那進度會延後嗎也會達標嗎風電我們會提早風電會提早在2025年你會達到5.6GW嗎"},{"start":4327.023,"end":4335.79,"text":"2026年 我們還是2026年所以你的2025年要達到5.6計高的話是已經跳票所以宣布到2026年 請說明清楚那個是在過去的啊這個延一年也是在過去所承諾的事情好 所以你現在要封建死這所承諾的事情一定要來落實嘛因為你2025已經跳票 人民會怕啊那你現在2026 本席請教"},{"start":4356.847,"end":4376.146,"text":"會不會跳票那個報告委員2025年延到2026年是因為COVID的關係所以當時上一任上一屆的這個政府有承諾讓他們延一年但我來接這個部長的時候就是完成2020年所以換句話說2026年你的這個風電的部分5.6GW你是要達到的"},{"start":4382.301,"end":4397.947,"text":"是的好最後結論每年全國的電量上升不斷的在上升對不對部長需求量是上升的需求量我們都有估在我們的計畫裡面當然是上升當然是上升那麼實際上我們發電量與20%的對應是有差距的因為政府的規劃在2030年再生能源的部分佔比是30%燃氣49%燃煤是多少呢"},{"start":4409.912,"end":4415.314,"text":"20%2030年本期告訴你但是我們也聽到也看到考量便利的需求的成長率是2.1%對不對每一年的成長率大概2%2.1%是 報告委員您的資料是2.1那我們估的是2.4"},{"start":4429.779,"end":4439.145,"text":"2.4 還有需求量 就是說我們每一年一直在增加好 這個有個故事 也就是每一年的需求電量是增加的所以屆時再生能源的發電量 預計要將比2024年的330"},{"start":4445.809,"end":4461.442,"text":"333億度會增加到2013年我們預估的2013年的976億度那換句話說是2024年的3倍所以本市要請教再生能源實際上的發電達到多少2024年及2025年到底數字是多少這個詳情的數目是請容許我回去再確認以後再跟您報告"},{"start":4469.451,"end":4471.995,"text":"你頭腦現在沒有這個東西這個讓我們會害怕因為我們這個是最重要的能源政策而且2030年是確定要怎麼樣會有多少發電量這個應該我們的幕僚都有清楚吧怎麼會現在回答不出來呢"},{"start":4485.373,"end":4496.471,"text":"您槌尋的完全正確啦是 謝謝只是我必須要準備啦所以我想下一次是不是請你提早告訴我我來這邊接受您執行部長部長 我已經非常非常"},{"start":4500.512,"end":4512.859,"text":"理性的跟你討論所以我要的是2024年以及你預估2025年的數字因為已經告訴我們每一年的這個電量成長率是2甚至2.1 2.2現在你們估到2.4所以換句話說你們應該會知道"},{"start":4517.341,"end":4521.606,"text":"到底我們2030年我們的發電量到底是多少才能夠讓我們很有信心的實際上你的發電量是足夠的嘛那如果連這個足夠的我們都不知道數字那我們怎麼相信是呢報告委員我是說我現在腦袋裡面沒有這個數字我必須要從我同仁那邊來接受這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":4540.265,"end":4546.068,"text":"也謝謝部長你的誠實你的誠實我也希望得到正確的這個數字請會合數字給本席我希望的再生能源它不是口號因為大家針對於能源政策跟現實的落差大家都是非常關鍵在關心也鼓勵政府要好好的做民眾也希望能夠得到一個正確的答案嘛對不對我們完全的這個看法是一致的"},{"start":4566.618,"end":4572.862,"text":"因為任何能源是非常非常非常重要因為我們不希望又再挑撇又再失言企業的看盤查投資佈局企業的投資佈局他們關係的我們能源到底足不足他們要怎麼樣的來來佈局所以這一點是非常重要我要請部長我也感謝你誠實的回答你頭腦沒有這個數字但是這個誠實也希望能夠真正的去落實我們的數字"},{"start":4597.219,"end":4609.79,"text":"問到以後就會給你問到以後給我這個應該是你頭腦裡面就已經有這麼重大的決策一起加油希望讓民眾能夠安心好不好不要再跳票謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員做詢答"},{"start":4637.831,"end":4640.853,"text":"以色列跟伊朗這個軍事衝突一直在升高啦特別是美國發動攻擊之後現在看起來對經濟的衝擊可能會很大今天可以啦 我們的股市"},{"start":4664.141,"end":4689.239,"text":"暴跌了400多點那這個看起來是原油應該會是往上上升的包括牛經經濟研究院都評估說啊再這樣下去啊原油一桶可能會飆升到美元130塊錢那這個可能就帶動物價嘛接下來可能是通膨他甚至認為說連美國這個通膨啊到年底可能都會到6%那我們國內這個對經濟會有衝擊經濟會有做什麼準備嗎"},{"start":4694.094,"end":4717.54,"text":"我們確實如委員所垂詢的我們都有做準備我們從這個國際原油價格80塊現在的這個狀況一直推你到您剛剛所說的130塊我們分成幾個不同的階段的這個油價都做了這一些情境的分析那麼根據所有的情境分析我們研擬出我們中油應該要有的對策"},{"start":4718.2,"end":4745.777,"text":"那麼這裡面當然有考慮到委員所垂詢的這個對CPI影響會有多少我想整體的這個部分呢不是只有經濟部或者是中油公司在處理這個事情我們行政院經濟部的上級長官對這個命題也非常非常的重要所以我們都整體有在對這個赫姆茲海峽的封鎖所造成的影響做出各種的推論對"},{"start":4748.706,"end":4775.429,"text":"這個非常重要啦所以冰淚白其實賴總統有召開國安會議嘛那現在看起來上禮拜開完之後現在這個衝突是在升高的因為美國出手了美國發動攻擊然後今天最新的消息是伊朗的國會已經通過了開始要封鎖荷摩茲這個海峽所以這個問題是在加劇當中部長你要不要利用這個機會跟前面講經濟部要怎麼樣去安定人心對經濟衝擊最小"},{"start":4777.906,"end":4800.993,"text":"經濟部我們對這種各種的狀況都有研擬我們都有研擬所以我想這個全國國人應該可以放心我們對80塊的時候應該怎麼做對90塊怎麼做100塊會怎麼做都有各種不同的情境分析那麼對各種的變數影響都有做出具體的因應的模式這個不是只有經濟部"},{"start":4802.304,"end":4826.834,"text":"一個部門在做的事情也不是中油公司一家公司在應應的事情這是整體行政院我們跨部會都有做這些的準備民眾非常關心你看股市那麼敏感一下就跌了400點了然後世上代總統跟總理長一定會再問你因為看起來是這個戰警在升溫當中好不好那接下來要問一個人命關天的這個事情"},{"start":4828.758,"end":4847.108,"text":"這個在媒體啊跟這個網路上啊罵聲連連這非常嚴重的一件事情就是高雄的大樹村51公頃的山山被鏟平了樹被砍掉了人命的關天而且前幾天這個地方"},{"start":4848.834,"end":4867.086,"text":"一場暴雨啊 滾滾的那個黃石衝下來當地的民眾來陳情 也抗議了 媒體說 媒體一個形容說什麼有可能會變成是以前小林村 媚村一個很大的一個悲劇所以現在要趕快要處理這個問題不然你們看這個圖 你們看這是一座山 51公頃喔結果山被鏟平了 右上角全部鋪了光電板"},{"start":4877.648,"end":4903.412,"text":"下面不遠的地方就是一個社區前陣子一場暴雨那個土石已經沖下來了這是非常嚴重的一個問題那今天特別要問你的是我在11日11號提出了這個質詢問農業部部長之後我看你們的那個高雄市政府馬上去處理你們在6月13號能源署開罰了150萬"},{"start":4907.236,"end":4935.235,"text":"對不對 可是高雄市政府現在更進一步囉他現在不是說只開拓一百五啊他說要求你們能源署要做進一步這個處理包括愁色喜可都要都要廢掉我們先來看喔 你看現場不然我給你看一下剛剛那個是空照圖這個是陳情的民眾當地民眾拍下來的你看 這個黨土牆一山被鏟平了黨土牆竟然只有做一半"},{"start":4937.11,"end":4962.617,"text":"多危險啊 下一個 你看 這邊一個黨主權只有說這樣這個合法合規嗎 多危險的事情 再來看不是一個地方欸 很多地方都有很大的問題現在國融企業會明確要求 他說這個責任包括廢除除色席殼是經濟部的責任經濟部要廢除他們的除色席殼嗎"},{"start":4964.066,"end":4987.89,"text":"報告委員 基本上我們一定會廢除他的酬赦許可但是必須要在高雄市政府把他的文件發出以後我們會即刻來廢止他的酬赦許可這個高雄市政府是在一個禮拜前就開了會了 6月18號來看這個說水土保守法第 來看上一張 水土保守法"},{"start":4989.363,"end":5006.923,"text":"第三十三條 他們已經發了一百零八萬然後高雄省政府還把這個案子 已經移送到地檢署去申辦了然後他們除了要求要停工之外要求能源署 你看 白天 你看明明確確他一天白天就要求能源署要撤銷他的許可要終止這個開發"},{"start":5009.166,"end":5031.877,"text":"文件還沒到你那邊是不是文件他還沒有發高雄市政府還沒有發出來能源署沒有辦法依照這個所發出來的文件來執行我們應該做的這個作為嘛所以跟委員報告只要高雄市政府發出這個文件我們能源署立馬就發出停止他這個施工的這個許可就是一收到"},{"start":5033.141,"end":5056.977,"text":"馬上立即停止他 撤銷他的酬赦席可對不對依法有據嘛 依法有據我們必須要根據這個來 這個都送到地檢署了柏弟 這個是並關天的事情我們完全同意您的說法嘛 這個也是依法所有的這個能源署我想我們都是依法依規在執行我們的任務所以您剛才所垂詢的這個部分 我們一開始"},{"start":5057.617,"end":5086.384,"text":"就是完全跟您的這個說法是完全一樣我們馬上做出這個決定只是我們現在在等高雄市政府的這個文件已經一個禮拜了不要變成兩邊在踢皮球喔回去以後可能要查要追一下到底文來的沒有好不好如果文來的部長已經受了宣示了嘛趕快要停止我們每天都在查這件事情啦這個大家這個社會這麼關注的這個命題我們不可能在那個地方什麼事情都不做"},{"start":5086.684,"end":5101.105,"text":"那個高雄市政府真的是牛不化了陳其邁每天在衝衝衝是個軟爛對不對這個委員你大概沒有待過市政府啦所以我想你不能這樣批評高雄市市長人命關天啊"},{"start":5101.846,"end":5128.604,"text":"第一個前陣子已經有一場大雨土石已經下來了第二個現在風太低對不對我們大家所關心的第一個人命關天第二個時間在賽跑這不能拖欸對我們大家所關心的都是一樣但是即使大家所關心的方向是一樣做法大家都非常的努力但是報告委員我們必須要依照法令上面所進行的程序去把它做完備"},{"start":5129.544,"end":5157.252,"text":"不可能說跳脫法律允許的範圍我們這個超前去做這個部分在政府是不允許的你看不只居民 我想全國民眾等一下就會跟你反映了一個人命關天的事情一個公文旅行了 拖延了一個禮拜你要幫他講話而且現在是颱風的這個季節欸要快一點啦 要快一點啦現在是跟時間在賽跑 在搶救人命啦好 那 我跟你講不是只有這個案子 同樣在高雄啊"},{"start":5158.377,"end":5171.745,"text":"還有一個在岐山區啊這個碼頭山的這個也是光電的開發你看這個碧安這麼多他這次是 這個山是多少啊55公頃一段說下去還這麼嚴重然後他還是一個兩條活動斷層跟泥岩地這個惡地之間這個如果一開發啊"},{"start":5182.042,"end":5189.549,"text":"第一個 你看穿山甲 水鹿 豬鯉這些稀有動物的棲息可能都受到問題然後對那個地質衝擊也會非常大時間有限 我趕快 趕快 我們做四個結論第一個"},{"start":5201.56,"end":5225.11,"text":"因為現在不要變成是踢皮球啦高雄市政府說很多責任都在中央的內政部經濟部跟農業部所以我請經濟部因為是你們核准的嘛第一個做一件事情把你當初核定的範圍土地的數量跟總面積還有你們中央的責任跟地方責任把它清清楚楚的一定好不好這個聞了到你那邊嘛對不對然後第二個"},{"start":5226.443,"end":5248.951,"text":"山坡地的開發要更嚴格因為目前這個規範山坡地以前都沒有做環評山坡地是不是另外要受到限制要整體趕快來檢討 好不好另外這個案子一年光是營收可以賺大概4.2億結果目前為止高雄聖聖湖的財閥才財閥還罰了180萬能源署去罰了150萬要幫他頂五個"},{"start":5256.053,"end":5262.941,"text":"這根本就沒有影響啊,對他來講4.2億欸,一年算4.2億欸你這個財閥太低了,所以我明確的要求"},{"start":5263.817,"end":5290.644,"text":"因為他有可能被你們撤銷對不對然後他還規定喔你如果初期借滿之後這個土地還要復原欸那山已經被你產平了怎麼去復原這個東西要好好去追究好最後做一個要求因為現在看起來山坡地不是只有剛剛講這兩個案子嘛不然你能答應我嗎一個月內關於你的光電推動裡面如果有次山坡地能不能一個月提出一個整體的報告跟解決方案"},{"start":5292.591,"end":5303.481,"text":"好 可以好 我定這位搶救人命啦真的要跟時間賽跑這不是等刀雄獅來 聞這麼慢來啦靠一下電話傳給鳳姐 好不好老實講如果最近發生颱風"},{"start":5305.078,"end":5321.484,"text":"鬧出人秉外共 這個不是行政責任喔這個有刑事責任喔 好不好我們跟市長 加油我們跟高雄市政府啊 我們在上個禮拜就已經針對這個命題進入深度的這個研究了我們並沒有像你才講說 莫不關心啦這一點我必須要在這個地方說明一下"},{"start":5325.984,"end":5352.225,"text":"有一些就是要法定規定啊人家高雄市政府都已經說我們將來可以來這個地方受一些修法請這個委員來幫忙啦謝謝委員現在趕快跟時間賽跑一個禮拜算太久了趕快 趕快我們既然有聯絡趕快加快速度 好不好民眾都在等跟時間賽跑搶救人命好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請鄭正前委員做詢答"},{"start":5362.71,"end":5383.455,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請一下經濟部郭智慧部長還有我們交通部林國賢長賜郭部長林市長郭部長好另外一個美國供給了伊朗的核設施 確實大家都非常的關心那我在想說確實也有很多委員都提到了就是對於這個"},{"start":5386.411,"end":5403.569,"text":"伊朗它封鎖了赫姆茲海峽之後會對整個台灣產生的影響那我在想說赫姆茲海峽大概全球大概四分之一到五分之一的石油跟天然氣都經過這邊那台灣進口的石油跟天然氣有多少是經過赫姆茲海峽"},{"start":5404.45,"end":5428.299,"text":"報告委員根據我們的統計大概20%的油會有一些影響25%的氣會有一些影響所以台灣進口25%的氣會產生影響那因為目前整個台灣的發電結構當中的時候超過五成都是天然氣發電那我們有沒有推演這個部分的時候大概會對台灣的電價壓力產生多大的一個壓力"},{"start":5431.923,"end":5459.054,"text":"現在還沒有到五成是起OK 還沒有出來好 那因為你剛剛有特別提到說就中油這邊其實整個經濟部還有整個行政院體系對於整個原油價格從80塊到130塊都有去做一些模型的一個推演對不對那我想就針對這個部分的時候我們推演出來的數字當中的時候當原油價格在80塊的時候對我們的CPI大概會影響多少因為通膨確實是民眾每個都有感的"},{"start":5459.514,"end":5485.229,"text":"到130塊的時候對我們的CPI大概會影響到多少他Range大概在什麼樣的部分可不可以請部長回應一下是喔 報告委員我想我們這一部分就是說為什麼行政院要針對這個面題可以高度的關注也就是說因為我們怕影響到整個物價指數所以我們這一部分裡面就會研擬出一些影響的變數當然我們在影響變數無法控制它價格一直往上走的時候"},{"start":5486.309,"end":5512.435,"text":"變成中油要開始吸收這裡面的這個差額所以為什麼就像我們再回應一下過去為什麼我們有很多需要國營事業來穩定物價也就是說當我們碰到這項衝擊的事項的時候那麼政府都會考慮到整個的這個物價影響然後會要求我們中油或者要求我們台電要能夠吸收這一些因為漲價"},{"start":5513.915,"end":5532.583,"text":"因為戰爭或者是大的這個變故所影響的這個價格所以這一部分其實是我們在討論在討論的時候就不是只有經濟部或者是中油公司或者台電公司他們自己提出來他只是把這個提出來的現象但是我想行政院他會綜合考量"},{"start":5533.243,"end":5557.463,"text":"然後透過這個可能是福利相關的這個措施或者是其他的補助援助的這個方法來做整合的部長謝謝因為我讓你很長時間把這個部分把它說明完成所以我這邊本席認為說如果說對於整個原油價格暴漲的時候我們政府對於整個CPI的部分有沒有說政策性要把它控制在幾%以下"},{"start":5559.045,"end":5568.114,"text":"報告委員我們這邊的這個數字是這樣子就是說對這個油價如果上漲10%那麼對CPR的影響是0.3那如果是電價來講的話那麼我們平均電價上漲1%那麼對CPR影響大概0.027%"},{"start":5580.307,"end":5608.385,"text":"我們這樣就比較容易去推論從80塊到130塊大概會影響多大謝部長很具體給這個一個答案出來接下來我想問一下交通部的林長賜針對我們今天的主題就是因應高齡化社會我國智慧公共運具發展跟目標這個部分我想特別請教一下交通部因為我們看到目前整個"},{"start":5610.307,"end":5622.219,"text":"國道駕駛 國道運輸的駕駛的時候據說到十萬塊都還找不到人那為什麼會這樣子 江部這邊有沒有什麼因應的方式"},{"start":5624.228,"end":5647.096,"text":"包委員確實目前大客車公車駕駛缺的很多了您這個資料有沒有錯我們目前像這個到10萬塊都還找不到所以可能公務局這邊就是加碼來補助各業者來徵才第二個當然也透過學校透過各種機構去看有沒有願意來接受駕訓的來源"},{"start":5649.877,"end":5676.053,"text":"那又部長因為你這樣的回答基本上對於整個具體現場當中碰到的問題感覺好像沒有真正打到這個痛點因為我們目前整個職業駕照分成小型客車大貨車大客車還有連結車大概有四種的一個職業駕照那麼大客車這個部分的時候他們同時可以去開大貨車跟小型客貨車所以大客車為什麼找不到人是因為很多的大客車駕駛他們都去"},{"start":5678.322,"end":5683.276,"text":"開了小型客貨車去開計程車所以目前出現的一個情況很特別就是國報"},{"start":5686.195,"end":5708.576,"text":"的司機他們跑到市區因為市區的公車他們壓力比較小然後整個工作的一個環境也比較好對於國道的那個駕駛的情況的時候可是呢我們就碰到了另外一個問題就是像比方說計程車司機他們就很多人要去開他們希望說70歲還可以再把他往延後"},{"start":5709.496,"end":5726.087,"text":"可是國道交通這邊就完全找不到司機這樣的一個情況但市區公車其實也找不到也找不到人那為什麼會有這樣的情況就是我不知道中部這邊有沒有做一個研究怎麼樣的一個情況導致這樣的事情發生那我們要怎麼樣去去因應"},{"start":5727.388,"end":5753.176,"text":"包委員確實您的觀察也很明確目前的趨勢大概就是從國道客運往市區公車走那大客車往職業駕駛或者是小客車走主要原因就您剛提的主要的是工作時間的彈性跟壓力那各位看到最近的報導裡面尤其是市區公車或公路客運有時候駕駛會面臨交通阻塞乘客抱怨甚至有一些比較不理性乘客會直接"},{"start":5754.136,"end":5776.924,"text":"那所以說針對這個部分就是本席也稍微去了解了一下其實就是說以目前來說為什麼國道駕駛就是這麼缺人的情況大概簡單三個一個跟吃飯有關一個跟上廁所有關一個跟整個職業傷害有關那這三點的部分的時候我不知道我們交通部有沒有跨部會去跟其他的部會來溝通要怎麼樣來解決這個問題"},{"start":5780.722,"end":5783.392,"text":"報委員我是不是請供應司 林市長跟您報一下"},{"start":5784.793,"end":5810.39,"text":"各位報告剛剛委員所提到這幾個課題大概確實是屬於這一個大客車駕駛一切相關日常環境所碰到的部分那這個部分的話交通部跟地方政府大概分幾個層面來做處理第一個部分就是這個路當然這個缺點就要這個加強帳目這個人員來做這個投入那第二個部分的話是希望做路線的這個優化那第三個一個部分的話大概就是場站還有相關這個駕駛工時排班的這個合理性"},{"start":5816.195,"end":5829.814,"text":"謝謝 因為你這個回應當中大家都還算是一個整個政策確實也是要這樣去做可是因為我們今天是針對整個高齡化社會的那個公共運具的問題的時候所以我想請教一下我們經濟部部長"},{"start":5831.596,"end":5857.506,"text":"因為剛剛提到這三個問題一個是就是吃飯的問題一個是提到了上廁所的一個問題第三個問題提到了一個他們職業傷害的問題那我們現在看到經濟部提出來的一個報告當中的時候大概都是提到我們要怎麼樣提高移運的效率那麼要強化行車安全跟優化電動巴士的能源管理等等的一些相關的問題可是沒有具體提到了這三個痛點"},{"start":5858.626,"end":5878.834,"text":"所以我想請教一下部長針對這三個痛點我們在做這樣子新的一個高齡化的一個相關運具的時候有沒有怎麼樣的方式可以去做一個配合跟調整我們將回去以後呢來考慮這些使用者他們的情境然後再加以提出一個比較完整的這個措施"},{"start":5879.614,"end":5907.644,"text":"OK部長你知道簡單回應可是沒有很具體我大概很簡單講到一個部分如果說是針對那個吃飯的問題的時候因為我們現在有些輔助駕駛的問題那如果在輔助駕駛因為通常會卡到吃飯都是因為塞車那我們如果有些輔助駕駛是不是同時可以配合一些相關的一個修法的時候在什麼樣的情況之下讓他們在塞車很長時間的時候也許可以同時吃飯"},{"start":5909.351,"end":5933.744,"text":"這個是一個點輔助駕駛加上法規的一個鬆綁這個部分這個部分針對洗手間的部分的時候我們現在設計新的巴士的時候是不是有可能就是在新的巴士當中讓駕駛他們有一個自己的駕駛室那也許可以有一個簡便的一個便盆可以去因應或者是有一個比方說小型的一個洗手間讓所有"},{"start":5935.285,"end":5962.066,"text":"這個高齡化的人他們也很需要洗手間這可以在設計的時候同時把規劃進來那麼第三個部分的時候就職業傷害的部分因為勞動部這邊他們就是也直接表示就是那個台北醫院他們也表示一個狀態他們有哪些的問題那麼我們也希望如果在同時在設計這樣的新型的一個載具當中的時候也同時能夠讓他們有比較好的一個環境比如說包括方向盤的一個重採油門的重"},{"start":5962.846,"end":5977.141,"text":"還有座位的高等等的問題讓他們在整個職業傷害能夠降低也許能夠解決這個部分好不好謝謝委員吹詢這個部分我想我們把這個您所吹詢的這個部分納入我們一些考慮的部分"},{"start":5978.061,"end":6002.051,"text":"最後一部分因為上禮拜的時候又發生了一個電動巴士失火的問題針對電動巴士失火這個問題的時候不知道經濟部這邊有沒有怎麼樣解決然後對於整個鋰電池的失火相關的問題的時候我們是不是會有更完整的SOP或者是有新的研發的一些滅火的一個素材能夠來因應這樣鋰電池失火的問題"},{"start":6002.691,"end":6023.137,"text":"是謝謝委員指導我想這個部分因為現在起火的原因還在等這個國家運安會的調查那我想我們真正的了解這些鋰電池產生的這個花火那這個就可以針對只要是鋰電池產生的這個火源啊如何來對它有效的這個滅火這個部分我們都會考慮"},{"start":6023.737,"end":6052.356,"text":"OK 那我們希望說因為鋰電池也是新興科技的狀態我們怎麼滅火能夠有一個新興的科技來去做一個因應我覺得也非常重要那麼也希望我們經濟部能夠就全球去了解這個部分然後能夠讓整個鋰電池失火的問題不要造成就是國人就是生命財產很重要的一個損失好不好是的 我想這個是很好的一個科技防治的一個方式啦這個在我們經濟部我們有一個DiPath計畫我想我們把它納入這樣的一個考慮OK 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":6053.998,"end":6058.108,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請鄭天才委員做詢答"},{"start":6079.753,"end":6108.239,"text":"好 主席我們請那個國發會副主委還有交通部次長詹副主委 林次長好 兩位好委員好今天的議題這個非常重要因高齡化社會這個是我們確實是一個非常高齡然後又是一個少子女化非常非常嚴重"},{"start":6110.885,"end":6118.051,"text":"今天國發會的報告裡面特別提到整合公司資源提升偏鄉運輸生活體驗這個中間階段裡面"},{"start":6126.931,"end":6144.598,"text":"例如交通部公務及以台東縣政府啟動TTGO花東溫馨接送EA媒體服務透過煤核機制整合在地巴士、計程車、租賃車及企業公益車輛等多元"},{"start":6145.818,"end":6173.425,"text":"運具的支援補貼民眾車資提供點到點的接駁到載的服務這個政策很好重點是這個漏水的問題第一個這個部分已經那時候是為了因應地震之後然後提出的這樣的一個很好的一個方案但是現在已經已經調整了"},{"start":6174.993,"end":6191.764,"text":"你自己的報告裡面解決目前台東地區的運輸需求缺口只有談到台東了本來是花東對不對花東溫馨接受所以這個部分"},{"start":6193.212,"end":6212.964,"text":"這個現在只有台東偏鄉交通最後一里路了所以這個部分是一個資訊互相交通部跟國發會的資訊要互相的交通部的報告裡面提到這個"},{"start":6214.755,"end":6218.72,"text":"公路總級以192個鄉鎮共493條路線包含62個偏鄉239條路線推動其中幸福巴士以通車共97個鄉鎮區"},{"start":6233.777,"end":6241.821,"text":"共326條路線含53個偏鄉196條路線幸福小房已通車95個鄉鎮區共167條路線含9個偏鄉共43條路線全國偏鄉地區公路公共運輸涵蓋率達94.4%這個交通部啊 社長啊這個這樣的寫法啊"},{"start":6263.929,"end":6289.373,"text":"這個好像這個績效非常非常的棒這樣子含概率達到94.4%真的是這樣嗎所以尤其是就偏鄉來講我們是偏鄉我們偏鄉的一看這個不是這樣嘛對不對如果我們光看你的那個幸福小黃含九個偏鄉就九個而已嘛"},{"start":6290.724,"end":6313.821,"text":"对不对然后呢那个你的那个幸福巴士含53个偏乡我们偏乡还不止这些嘛然后偏乡这个也有很多不同的那个如果是以我们村与村之间部落与部落之间那根本就没有啊所以这个部分含概率达到94.4%"},{"start":6317.744,"end":6323.93,"text":"這個用詞還是要去注意了需要回應嗎"},{"start":6326.369,"end":6345.125,"text":"基本上偏鄉的定義是根據內政部的定義我知道這個我知道我是老公務員知道沒關係您的意思就是說可能偏鄉一個區一條線靠過去也算一個所以我想我們還是以他的普及力來看就我們來說是一個非常不可思議的沒有啊哪裡有對不對"},{"start":6347.605,"end":6371.713,"text":"會產生這樣的一個好我們就講這個幸福巴士27條路線當然這個是你們的努力包括縣政府我們共同的一起去推動都是要肯定的該肯定的我們要肯定好我們看這個幸福小黃幸福小黃的政策是應該積極加強的推動為什麼呢"},{"start":6375.839,"end":6399.862,"text":"這個幸福巴士因為它畢竟它不是每個小時對不對所以反而是幸福小黃會更貼切人民的需要尤其是長者的需要尤其是這個非常弱勢的需要我們看這個花蓮縣幸福小黃你看最下面的查無資料"},{"start":6402.05,"end":6413.07,"text":"對不對系統上查五十號我們確實是沒有啊好我們看這個台東縣幸福小房有啊部分呢成功延頻"},{"start":6416.605,"end":6436.813,"text":"還差很遠最需要的偏鄉還是有差的一個很大很大的落差就舉這兩個例子所以這個部分我們要努力的地方還很多還是需要非常非常的要去加油當然經費就是一個問題經費所以國發會要支持"},{"start":6442.206,"end":6465.474,"text":"對不對 你要整體的一個政策 經費的提供都是需要國發會來去預祝所以這個部分要繼續努力 好不好好 我們看這個時間的關係今天台鐵票價 今天開始漲價"},{"start":6467.581,"end":6482.767,"text":"這個是對我們偏鄉整個花蓮縣台東縣而言這個偏鄉又是一個非常非常嚴重的一個問題所以今天開始漲價我們看這個"},{"start":6487.196,"end":6509.507,"text":"交通部交通部所提出來的花東會員過票點數是透過會員我們今天的主題是什麼高齡者對不對高齡者就沒有會員啊沒有加入會員啊對不對高齡者我們今天的主題高齡會員都沒有啊"},{"start":6511.121,"end":6529.759,"text":"對不對 如何去想得到這樣的一個會員的點數 沒有嘛所以這個部分就是一個要去處理的部分本事業曾經建議我們現在就UV很多都會去就學就業的"},{"start":6533.028,"end":6562.013,"text":"你現在只有現在花蓮台東的戶籍在那邊的但是在花東就學就業的他要回去就沒有啊對不對然後呢他的戶籍不在花蓮台東但是在花蓮東華大學就學到台東大學就學的也沒有啊所以這個在花蓮台東工作的好不容易他希望到台東工作把人留下來結果也沒有"},{"start":6563.513,"end":6578.194,"text":"所以涉及到还是经费国家会副主委还是涉及到还是经费请问一下次长你知道这个你现在的政策花工会员购票点数这个优惠"},{"start":6579.931,"end":6607.515,"text":"經費從哪裡來包委員台鐵的部分我們這一部分有一部分是從TPAS這邊來另外有一些是花東對票收去回饋花東基金的部分好 這個是我上次不是只有UV都可以因為只要涉及在花東的都可以所以不是只有UV出生在花東你弄錯我的意思了"},{"start":6608.535,"end":6628.604,"text":"現在你們的規定,現在的規定是第二個花蓮縣台東縣附集在那邊的,只有附集在那邊,現在你看你現在的是只有,也不是第二點的,就是你現在的只有附集在花蓮縣跟台東縣的才可以"},{"start":6629.485,"end":6653.994,"text":"然後我的公文是要建議擴大要擴大的意思了是這個意思所以這個公文我的意思因為你的目前的做法就是只有針對戶籍跟戶籍在花蓮縣跟台東縣的我的意思是要擴大的意思而經費之前我也執行過國發會希望用花東基金因為"},{"start":6655.421,"end":6669.555,"text":"你要交通部臨時找這些錢也很難啦然後也不應該有台鐵來吸收啦也不應該有它所以我才說用花東基金既然是要用花東基金"},{"start":6672.11,"end":6688.877,"text":"那個交通部就不要擠限收負擠在花蓮跟台東的因為你以前的政策是什麼呢你的那個乘車的政策就是UV都算進氣啊所以這個部分是要請重點還是錢嘛還是經費謝謝這個"},{"start":6695.06,"end":6701.724,"text":"這個國發會副主委一直點頭點頭就是同意對不對不要搖頭不要搖頭"},{"start":6705.602,"end":6729.894,"text":"各位謝謝委員的指導您提到花東基金的部分因為這個可能還要跟花蓮跟台東縣政府他們都贊成據我們了解好像他們有一些意見所以這部分是不是花東基金的部分可能還要再跟他們討論這也先跟委員報告我非常清楚花東基金從我當立委那年開始的"},{"start":6732.836,"end":6757.041,"text":"102年開始的所以有部分是屬於中央去調配的那個部分啊有沒有 有嘛中央調配的那個部分有地方政府負責的也有中央負責的那個部分 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林益齡委員詢答結束後休息五分鐘"},{"start":6764.264,"end":6781.473,"text":"我們接下來請謝依鳳委員質詢謝謝主席 我想要先請交通部林次長請交通部林次長次長"},{"start":6787.128,"end":6804.827,"text":"早我想要知道目前交通部你演繹限制高齡長者上路但是然後希望他們可以轉成大眾運輸系統我也看到今天也看到交通部對於大眾運輸系統達成的補貼"},{"start":6808.01,"end":6830.458,"text":"那但是我想要了解的是這對於雙北六都公共運輸系統非常便捷的地方我們有可能藉由交通搭乘交通運輸系統的補貼來轉移他們駕駛的需求但是六都以外呢像我們中南部"},{"start":6831.138,"end":6856.673,"text":"我們對我們的公共運輸不發達的情況下你即便有大眾運輸系統的補貼也沒有辦法移轉啊你提到了我看到你相關的規劃你有幸福巴士幸福小黃等等但是有沒有辦法整個轉移他們的這樣子大眾運輸的需求有沒有辦法"},{"start":6857.453,"end":6879.794,"text":"包委員我先跟您報告交通部推動的高齡駕照的管理並不是要限制高齡者的使用目前的作法當然是75歲以上他要再做認知跟體格的檢查確認他安全有認知能力沒有其他的問題避免造成他自己跟周邊行人的危害"},{"start":6880.575,"end":6885.156,"text":"所以這一塊是要確認而已並不是限制他使用我知道我們沒有歧視的問題因為我們每一個人都會變老在座的每一位都有這個問題早晚而已我們也是在解決我們本身的問題沒有錯 而且每個人狀況不一樣所以要確認一下"},{"start":6904.26,"end":6928.611,"text":"我是要了解的是當我們在解決這個問題的時候你們目前提出的方法有沒有辦法確實的解決我們這樣問題嘛那我看到了你們所謂的你們現在著重的就是補助大眾運輸的補貼但是你真正的政府要怎麼樣解決這個政策其實"},{"start":6929.511,"end":6956.561,"text":"我們我其實為什麼會在經濟委員會召開這個問題就是你們現在政府要發展AI嘛你的AI要整體發展你一定要有辦法應用嘛是不是你能夠應用到智慧交通我那天問國發會主委啊我說智慧交通是不是你負責他說不是啊是那個國科會所以我今天才請國科會來啊國科會的書副主委你要不要"},{"start":6959.272,"end":6961.322,"text":"來說明一下請國科院書部主委"},{"start":6964.016,"end":6992.907,"text":"是 跟趙偉還有主席報告一下相關新AI十大建設的部分有關智慧生活圈裡面是有這一項但是我們現在在相關計畫裡面以大南方新矽谷為例主要是希望推動把建立建起來把相關的應用帶進來所以不管是在智慧交通 智慧餐飲甚至是智慧運輸以及整個的智慧照護的部分都可以來發展這個部分"},{"start":6993.914,"end":7017.09,"text":"所以還是在試辦計畫嘛 是不是 還是在試辦計畫嘛那怎麼樣子可以大規模的推廣還有未來我們國家要推廣的方向是怎麼樣子的其實我剛才在聽所有委員的詢答的時候我就想到了啊 政府的政策有沒有定啊"},{"start":7017.93,"end":7025.544,"text":"我們在解決我們長者用車需求的時候第一個我們有公共運輸系統"},{"start":7027.048,"end":7043.764,"text":"我們有什麼未來現在在很多國家大家在推動的是不是要用自駕車的方式或者我們現在目前的交通部的法規有沒有辦法來讓我們的自駕車能夠馬上上路以及"},{"start":7050.951,"end":7061.783,"text":"我那天去了找我們的車車中心我們看到了車車中心目前在發展的半自駕的公共運輸系統他就是讓"},{"start":7065.618,"end":7091.461,"text":"運具上面有駕駛但是我們未來交通部有沒有辦法延長像這樣子智慧運具半自動駕駛的公共運輸系統我們駕駛的駕駛年限因為在配合智慧的這樣的輔助系統之後他們可不可以延長"},{"start":7092.822,"end":7121.71,"text":"我們公共運輸系統駕駛的駕駛年限因為其實我們看到在駕駛的這個什麼在一些歐美國家的相關的就是自動駕駛的脫離率來講其實都已經達到了就是很高啊我看到是好像是多少公里我們那個我們次長你有沒有研究"},{"start":7123.737,"end":7128.336,"text":"市長你有沒有研究?我有研究,你有沒有研究?報告委員不好意思,這一塊我沒有了解"},{"start":7128.8,"end":7156.831,"text":"我看到了vamo vamo就是googlegoogle的那個他發展的那個那個計程車他的脫離率是兩萬七千八百七十公里代表了你駕駛了兩萬七千八百七十公里以後你才需要人的輔助那當你這樣的時候我們政府單位你有沒有去研究"},{"start":7157.891,"end":7180.504,"text":"当我们导入相关的这样子的一个半自动的驾驶的时候能不能够延长公共运输系统驾驶的年限包委员您提的其实是重点提供智慧运输或自驾车本身好几个面向可以第一个就是刚刚我们其他委员有提到的"},{"start":7181.404,"end":7205.591,"text":"這個人力不足然後它的操作過勞甚至有很多問題它沒有辦法依照它的駕駛過程譬如說PR駕駛這一類都可以透過自駕車透過智慧運輸的協助讓駕駛用更低的精力更少的注意力去完成它的任務所以它就可以撐更久的時間所以目前像很多國家有的駕駛已經延長到68我們計程車也可以延長所以這一類的議題"},{"start":7210.532,"end":7233.433,"text":"都是可以降低驾驶者的需求跟他的劳动力的压力那第二个呢也可以提高他的政治能力降低对路面行人的危害以及对危险驾驶的避让所以这一块我们认为一定ADAS或者是自驾车的导入能够更快导入公共运输一定可以提供更好的这个服务能量"},{"start":7234.053,"end":7261.408,"text":"所以你也認為說那你們到底政府的政策有沒有我們現在的任務就是全力用計畫來協助這個沙盒實驗沙盒實驗裡面讓這些業者在裡面排除既有法規的限制把他的能力發揮出來然後我們根據沙盒實驗的結果回饋到我們的修法過程所以現在我們已經委託車安中心BSCC就沙盒實驗的過程有哪些議題"},{"start":7262.729,"end":7283.255,"text":"納入我們法規的調和跟修正所以這是同步在作業所以一旦車子能夠做得越快越好我們就可以馬上修正法規來調整好那其實上次我們在淘機也已經試過讓公園園的9人8完全用50公里的時速自動駕駛然後自動做merging就是匯流跟分流"},{"start":7283.935,"end":7311.012,"text":"所以目前九人巴士已經有這樣的能力已經實驗完成那只是說它要落地的過程它的車子要能夠量產商業化符合既有法規所以這些過程我們還要再處理那這個部分你們進行了如何我剛跟您報告大概兩年多前已經有工研院的這個自駕九人巴已經上路了那目前大客車的部分還在研發試驗中尤其是我們有個計畫在淡水淡海新市鎮"},{"start":7311.892,"end":7334.585,"text":"那這一類的成熟度越高我們就能夠導入那如果像我們我們彰化呢我們彰化市呢我們彰化市也是一個就是小型的一個繁華的一個城市嘛那對於公共運輸的這個那能不能做因為你們都是在空曠的地區嘛我們一定要考驗其實我那天去車車中心郭部長是不是請你"},{"start":7335.385,"end":7361.8,"text":"也順便說一下你們到底目前國家發展的方向是什麼嗎你們一定要給業者給民眾有一個確切的發展方向嗎到底是不是是公共運輸系統還是無人就是自駕車的系統這要給所有的業者以及民眾有一個遵循的方向也可以解決我們所有人的需求問題啊"},{"start":7362.66,"end":7378.759,"text":"所以因为这样子所以才会利用沙盒的计划来推动我想这个是牵扯到很多的部门我想基于安全基于整个社会的安全我想我们是第一个考虑所以需要一点时间请委员能够了解"},{"start":7378.939,"end":7392.915,"text":"法規法令啊是不是交通部的法規法令要怎麼共同的合作啊對這個就是需要去等到這個計畫實驗成功以後啊那麼再來這個討論這個法規法令"},{"start":7394.036,"end":7415.729,"text":"我們現在是要解決這整體的需要這是不管是我們現在或者是未來這是非常重要的需求因為畢竟我們社會就是邁向這樣子的一個社會的趨勢那因為這個整個計畫還沒有完成之前就修法可能會比較危險一點那什麼時候計畫可以完成什麼時候計畫可以完成"},{"start":7420,"end":7438.462,"text":"什麼時候可以計劃完成?董委員說明一下齁那目前我們有大概有18個自駕案在薩爾試驗那目前比較成功最成功的就是在台積電廠區他在14廠跟18廠之間去做這個人員的運輸啦齁他累計了大概5萬多公里啦齁那所以這個是一個所以"},{"start":7439.824,"end":7455.92,"text":"那我們跟交通部配合是在這樣的數據的收集過程中那交通部也應用在這個時間內也在法規上也訂定的這個指引那所以因為這個是針對安全的部分那我們會慢慢的推進郭部長你回答交通部是不是太落後"},{"start":7457.029,"end":7478.266,"text":"也沒有啦 交通部是不是太落後我們那個林市長你回答我們這個交通部長坐我旁邊的啦會不會太落後 有沒有跟上科技的腳步我們說要發展AI 你如果AI的應用都沒有發展的情況下怎麼樣子提高AI的需求"},{"start":7479.147,"end":7496.526,"text":"我想我們還是基於安全安全第一啦我當然就要安全第一然後這個成功以後才可以來修法在沒有成功之前我想我們還是要盡量把這個這個安全的這個因素考慮進來以後然後快速的讓它能夠成功這樣"},{"start":7498.048,"end":7524.429,"text":"對我當然認為安全一定是唯一的就是最重要的事情也因為我們現在可以用AI以後就會速度比較快一點對但是我們要提高AI的需求的時候我們就要相對的要發展AI的應用那我們在發展AI的應用的時候是不是應該對於我們現在目前切身需要解決的問題你們加速進行是不是我們會加速進行好謝謝"},{"start":7539.632,"end":7554.918,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請呂玉玲做詢答謝謝主席 請國發會的詹副主委"},{"start":7562.646,"end":7586.816,"text":"主委我們現在台灣已經正式邁入了高齡的社會因為是少子跟高齡化所以我們人口的結構變成越來越老化所以導致於我們的勞動力的不足所以現在我們在上個禮拜的話我們是排國外人才所以我們放寬了他的居住吸引他來流到台灣來工作這個禮拜我們特別排了"},{"start":7588.397,"end":7598.207,"text":"這個部分的話就是要關心著我們國內人才的流失尤其是我們看到我們2023年台灣到海外工作的大概有62萬人在疫情之前的話大概2019年的話有73萬到74萬人都在跑到國外去工作在這種情形之下的話我們看到我們瑞士"},{"start":7611.94,"end":7637.777,"text":"洛杉磯管理學院有做一個統計在2024年這個IDM的世界人才排名裡面在全球裡面有67個國家台灣的話排名18日本的話排名43所以說這台灣還是有一定的那個競爭力可以把他攬柴那又再根據勞動部跟日本這個總務省的統計截止到今年2025年的5月份的話在"},{"start":7640.539,"end":7659.626,"text":"台灣人到日本工作了大概有五萬人日本人到台灣工作了有八千五百人所以副主委你看到這種情形台灣在世界排名這麼高高於日本但是我們的台灣人卻到日本工作的人數這麼多你有什麼因應的這些做法呢"},{"start":7662.454,"end":7682.268,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個一方面可能也是因為我們企業在全球佈局的關係不過當然我們是很希望我們人才的部分當然還是希望為台灣所用無論是自己的本國人或是外國人所以塑造一個良好的這個環境是我們現在最重要的一個目的這種現象你們如何因應呢"},{"start":7682.888,"end":7712.248,"text":"所以我想我們剛剛提到我們上禮拜排這個外國人才修法的這個報告其實就是要把我們吸引外國專業人才來台灣的環境收拾得更好所以這是國內的人才的部分其實我們也從幾個面向來處理譬如說有關AI這些人才的需求那我們透過擴展國內的教育STEM人才的培育"},{"start":7712.808,"end":7738.18,"text":"重點的領域學校 領域人才在國內 你在講國外沒有沒有 我現在提到的是國內的AI人才的部分那我們也會加強的培育讓他們在國內有良好的這個可以發揮的這樣子的一個環境所以你要積極把人才 國內人才要留住啦不要一直在吸引外國人才 忽略了我們國內的人才好不好那還有根據我們看到 現在都是高齡化要重返職場嘛"},{"start":7738.9,"end":7747.436,"text":"因為我們那個勞動力的缺乏所以你們有舉辦一個這個中高齡及高齡者及高齡就業的促進法所以讓我們高齡者可以"},{"start":7751.26,"end":7778.704,"text":"回到職場上工作但是你看到在我們的該法規的34條裡面他大概都提到說是臨時性的短期性的跟季節性或者分部分的工時這樣子的情形上會衍生的就讓很多人印象中認為高齡者大概都是兼職的很臨時性的甚至在我們職場上看到你們有點霸凌的就對年齡的歧視的問題這點你要怎麼樣去解決呢"},{"start":7781.114,"end":7795.742,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們在推動中高齡對於我們的未來的勞動力其實非常非常重要所以我想應該不會只僅限於上面提到的臨時性可是目前大概都是兼職的臨時性 季節性的所以你要趕快的橫向溝通像勞動部的話你如果去跟他協調溝通"},{"start":7800.445,"end":7820.86,"text":"這種產生出來的矛盾性其實我了解勞動部他有針對企業來加強有關於中高齡如果回企業就業的時候甚至二度就業的時候在很多工作上或者是環境上要怎麼提供他們一個比較好的方式讓他們可以發揮所長那這點勞動部他已經在跟很多企業在推動這方面的做法"},{"start":7821.48,"end":7848.067,"text":"是 所以因為你們鼓勵他們能夠重返職場去就業但是職場上給他們就有產生的這種兼職啦或年齡的這個歧視這個等等問題這個你要去解決好不好那才可以鼓勵他們的才能才能繼續在我們的職場上貢獻好不好好那接下來就是要請教謝謝你我們先來請交通部的林次長林次長"},{"start":7851.084,"end":7851.527,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7856.076,"end":7880.694,"text":"市長 今天大家都有談到這高齡駕車的這個風險性那尤其是交通部也規定了在這個執照上已經下降 從75歲下降到70歲那未來都對 除了體格的檢驗以外檢查以外 還會針對以危險的感知跟交通安全的這個教育在這方面的話 我們看到現在目前來講的話我們要讓高齡者"},{"start":7884.076,"end":7903.802,"text":"你的鼓勵高齡者要繳回這個駕照所以你每邊的預算要來補助像通勤的月票但是不是每個地方都像都會地區大車非常方便那偏遠地區的話他們就不方便所以這個不是全面性要這樣做雖然是鼓勵啦但是我們還可以一個方面就是說看如果去避開這個降低這個高年齡的這個"},{"start":7907.804,"end":7934.302,"text":"開車的造勢這個風險譬如說我們看到日本日本有一個方案就是說加裝防霧彩油門的這個系統我們是不是可以比照日本來做這個因應的措施包園這個案子我們部內跟工作局大概在這幾個月內會去討論討論多久我們可以借盡日本的方式最有安全的做法也不"},{"start":7938.962,"end":7949.609,"text":"跟委員報告一下 確實就是委員所提到在日本就是有這種防物材油門的部分 它是做外加的部分所以目前我們也在針對目前我們在針對日本這樣子的一個系統來做這個"},{"start":7955.953,"end":7978.759,"text":"所以好好的去研究我們三個月會完成分析這個方案如果可行的話趕快推行好不好是 我們三個月完成分析還有接下來就是說我們看到我們交通部的統計的資料最近這十年的交通事故的占比來講的話18歲到24歲是比較年輕的人但是最主要的還是成年人在25到64歲是比較多所以我們看到一個考到駕照是18歲來講的話"},{"start":7981.98,"end":8002.561,"text":"他到換照75歲這中間有57年的時間這57年時間我們要如何去讓他重新受訓讓他的技術更加的純熟在這個部分的話我們不能等到發生交通事故你再來亡羊補牢叫他來的時候上個道安課程所以我們可以未以籌募了什麼方式來處理呢"},{"start":8003.24,"end":8027.611,"text":"高委員我麻煩供應司跟委員報告目前大概就是18歲考慮你駕駛執照之後以目前的一個規定的話到這個75歲要做換照那剛剛委員也有關切到57年時間你們都沒有做一些防範措施然後在中間的過程當中在中間的過程當中就透過這個祭典還有違規的這些相關的那個就是像大安課程對對對這個大安獎"},{"start":8032.656,"end":8040.287,"text":"這個這樣講法的話我本席是不能接受的啦我們看到國際上很多的其他的國家都有回訊的方式"},{"start":8041.665,"end":8064.811,"text":"所以現在有了駕照之後的話聽了很久沒有開車然後隔了五年十年開車之後他的技術可不可以忘記了或者重新檢驗了他的訓練這個可以考量的所以這個部分的話你看日本也有啊 韓國也有啊部長提出那個駕照管理三策略那其中第二項就是要建立這個那個迴訊的制度來這個提高所以你沒有準備要做迴訊紀錄你連迴訊一次"},{"start":8070.492,"end":8098.191,"text":"這個部分的話我們針對高風險會來建立這個火線的一個這個制度本席提醒你不要完全針對高風險特別有提醒你到25到65歲最是交通事故是最高的所以你真的從不把它針對高風險是不對的我現在有舉例告訴你有些人好多家都沒有開車停了很久在這個部分的話我們就是也要來考慮說有回訊的資質不能完全針對高風險高年齡的人"},{"start":8100.472,"end":8110.074,"text":"根據委員報告不是針對高年齡的部分其實這個回訊制度我們回訊制度的部分其實就是針對剛剛委員所關切的24到64歲之間這些相關就是說我們講的不偏屬於高齡駕駛者所以你問回訊嘛對 我們現在在研議這個這個三個月我們會完成這個研議好 這些都是我們防範未來的一些措施"},{"start":8127.818,"end":8137.159,"text":"讓我們交通事故降低這才是我們大家最關心的好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝韋恩好 謝謝那我們現在休息七分鐘"},{"start":8321.903,"end":8322.045,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8423.601,"end":8426.834,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":8523.797,"end":8525.06,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":8564.093,"end":8570.169,"text":"好 開始開會我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答"},{"start":8589.963,"end":8597.247,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請經濟部國部長國部長然後還有國科會國科會書副主委部長辛苦了昨天我大家看了一下這個CNN跟BBC對這個美國針對這個伊朗核設施他的這個空襲當然這個"},{"start":8619.229,"end":8636.841,"text":"我經常特別注意伊朗的這個議會已經通過可能要對赫姆斯海峽進行封鎖那可能要經過安全會議假如一旦封鎖那我們的這個天然氣來源國應該是以澳洲第一澳洲差不多剎夏娃"},{"start":8638.959,"end":8653.931,"text":"再來應該是卡達 再來美國 再來巴布尼亞 紐西雷亞差不多是這樣 如果我們一說數字所以卡達差不多要降三下 兩下 七左右那河北市海峽如果一封鎖"},{"start":8655.353,"end":8680.013,"text":"對我們天然氣的接收、供應會造成影響嗎?當然是會有影響啦現在我們就是有在前一星期就開始針對這些情形來做一些形容那這些情境的分析我們可能就是可能會在現貨市場裡面去取得一些協助啦"},{"start":8680.774,"end":8702.079,"text":"那雖然現在是已經方法有很多啦那可能抱歉在這個地方我不便跟這個對 因為它是這個最近的供應國啦比如說你澳洲 巴布亞 紐西蘭 再來美國美國未來它的佔比現在是10%左右美國未來會不會提升天然氣採購的佔比"},{"start":8703.962,"end":8710.993,"text":"當然未來美國應該是會我們調高天然氣購買來源的一個非常重要的一個關鍵"},{"start":8712.95,"end":8732.684,"text":"所以在目前的這個狀況之下我們估計會目前是百分之十左右未來對美國天然氣的比例比重大概會到什麼樣的一個規模我們大概我們希望說能夠到達這個穩定的狀況這個很抽象穩定的狀況對就是穩定因為這個其實跟委員報告這種東西都是動態的"},{"start":8742.111,"end":8770.191,"text":"這個市場裡面一定是狀態他新聞來看 新聞來看應該是中東比較雙是不是這樣他新聞來看 美俄洲比巴布尼亞比美國這新聞來看應該是中東比較雙所以我們這樣卡他才會這樣我們三峽左右所以我要提這個經濟部如果說一旦荷姆斯被封鎖讓三峽位卡他出來這個天然氣供應你們可能要做有一些因應的方案"},{"start":8772.801,"end":8792.346,"text":"我們都有這個因應的方案所以不會造成天然氣供應因為這個赫姆斯海峽封鎖而造成影響會有一些影響啦但是我們 我想 我知道這個委員的關注的部分我們有交代 交期不能夠影響"},{"start":8793.516,"end":8800.498,"text":"所以我們可以調整,譬如說他要去給別人的生活欄,這都可以調整他要給別人的生活欄也是他要為他的卡拉出來"},{"start":8812.941,"end":8815.242,"text":"我們當然可以尋求對澳洲或對美國增加經濟衛生來支援"},{"start":8831.731,"end":8847.03,"text":"我是說確定要供應不會造成說我們天然氣供應的不足或者造成因為這可能會是一個長期的效應不知道說它的豐收多久可是它自己豐收一年我們半月三十天把它卡出來沒辦法出來這影響很大喔我們這也是有半個半年啦"},{"start":8850.774,"end":8872.529,"text":"只要經濟部我相信經濟部有相關的因應方案那現在永安天然氣LNG廠現在當然天然氣進來你要擴大天然氣儲存量要建儲槽我希望這個部分可能終於要去跟這個地方多做溝通我想這個地方上在永安是反對聲音還蠻大的我覺得要多做溝通"},{"start":8875.405,"end":8882.512,"text":"至於說前幾天在永安的說明會我覺得地方上是一致性的強烈反對"},{"start":8886.636,"end":8912.171,"text":"我們都可以了解這個國人的這些擔心但是我們會在就像委員講的這個我們希望能夠多溝通讓國人都知道這個天然氣它的排碳是現在的這個要接一個除潮就是安全性的一定要地方有共識要當地的這個市民支持"},{"start":8913.359,"end":8933.508,"text":"否則我作為當地的民意代表作為立法委員我覺得我電視台好讓地方聲音那他們來跟我申請他們說明說目前出朝還是有安全之餘但是你要多做溝通所以多做溝通如果你們取得當地我們市民的同意我當然是無條件支持所以謝謝委員支持"},{"start":8934.268,"end":8955.367,"text":"因為過去啊 這個除潮是在地下啦這過程我都知道啦 地下跟地上差異在哪裡 安全係數有沒有多少變化可能要多做幾次溝通啦那另外就是說 為什麼要請蘇政剛 蘇副主委白布產業園區是過去我跟經濟部爭取作為傳統產業園區嘛"},{"start":8957.449,"end":8981.445,"text":"現在市政府當然很積極希望說把北高雄這個橋頭跟岡山變成一個宜居然後高科技然後健康的一個城市所以北高雄外山坑外橋頭外到岡山是未來我有一個夢想要把它打造成高雄市的這個岡橋副都心"},{"start":8982.466,"end":9010.685,"text":"副都市你要完善的入網你要完善的這個醫療設施你要有這個環境也很好然後這個宜居然後交通又方便然後另外就有產業產業就是高科技嘛產業進駐就會有機會所以白布產業園區我們希望說能夠爭取到這個TSMC啊能夠在考慮在這地方設廠這個有硫化物的問題嗎"},{"start":9012.654,"end":9034.578,"text":"我想個別廠商的設廠他有針對製程的條件不一他會關心很多種不同的相關的周邊的條件那剛剛邱委員所提示的其實非常正確也就是說相關的產業運輸在開發的時候我們在串聯整個南台灣的產業狼帶的時候會考量到九大配套措施包含生活機能、交通這個都會一起來放一起來納入考量"},{"start":9034.858,"end":9055.884,"text":"TSMC社長有他的專業考量有他們公司的這個相關的專業判斷但是地方政府的支持地方政府的這個這個協助也很重要但是中央也要協助地方政府啦齁所以地方政府常常要合作來跟台積電說明這是一個好的地方啦我是說我每天在那齁"},{"start":9057.744,"end":9083.633,"text":"這對我國家好事好事應該是很好的一個所在我是拜託國客會跟經濟部可以再去TSMC跟Eco去考量去說明這是一個他們選項之一我認為一定要放在那選項之一啦如果有國客會跟這個經濟部推薦他們會覺得會有更多的意願所以今天我們要拜託國務部長跟書副主委"},{"start":9087.316,"end":9107.825,"text":"另外交通部的部分今天林市長高齡者開車駕車安全性是所有高齡者必須去重視的問題但你不要忽略一個問題的重點在哪裡問題本是說都會區跟非都會區年長者"},{"start":9112.86,"end":9137.941,"text":"使用運具的這個習慣是不一樣因為供給會產生他們的這個使用習慣好 都會區它有很多選項班次密集 有捷運 有公車入網 對不對它不需要騎摩托車 它不需要自己開車它可以很便利 很方便 很安全到哪一場去的地方但是非都會區 比方說高雄市北邊它雖然有捷運 但是只有一條"},{"start":9139.755,"end":9165.357,"text":"很多區域都需要自己開車或騎摩托車所以你要考慮到這個區域的差別對這些年長者他們使用硬具的需求跟標準以及協助你要有不同的思維你不要疑似同仁是委員講的是重點確實如此你要針對非度位區這些長者他沒有其他的選擇他一定要開車他一定要騎摩托車"},{"start":9166.238,"end":9173.9,"text":"沒有開設 現在他們子女可能在出外上班沒有辦法在家裡他必須靠自己"},{"start":9174.741,"end":9199.287,"text":"就這種情況之下 他沒有公共交通運輸可以選擇的時候 怎麼辦呢是 委員您講的是重點如果沒有公共運輸 他勢必要自行開車或家人接送那自行開車的過程 我們這個制度並不是不讓他開車我們是要他在75歲或是沒幾年去問一下他是不是我理解這種需求會對非都會區的長者會更為需求 需求強度會更強確實"},{"start":9200.927,"end":9224.252,"text":"所以你跟他們有更多的這個政策上的協助配套的措施讓他們可以安心的開車這部分我想這個應該是行政部門跟交通部要去做一個完整的規劃我想把這個問題點出來讓這個交通部門能夠理解最後這個幾個計劃都是交通平權交通平權就是縣市的平權然後都會區跟非都會區也要平權"},{"start":9225.352,"end":9242.161,"text":"這個建設都是北高雄為公共運輸能夠強化 讓這些長者不用自己開車騎車所以現在五省 省省差不多5.09億 現在還在報告交通部在誰我希望交通部能夠全力支持"},{"start":9243.481,"end":9267.005,"text":"這個清單我都把你列出來的有 委員我想這個我們我們部門跟公路局會你們再跟高雄市政府交通局再做溝通好不好了解這些都是針對非都會區怎麼樣去改善這個交通平權怎麼樣讓這個非都會區的長者能夠安全的這個駕駛是 每個地方有特定的議題啦好 謝謝各位好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":9272.079,"end":9301.252,"text":"我们现在请陈超明委员做询答首先有请经济部长部长部长好"},{"start":9303.121,"end":9324.052,"text":"剛剛聽到邱志偉委員講,永安的油草非常重要,要加強的維護這點我承認,邱志偉委員確實高瞻人世但是我保證說一件事,你永安的油草在施送的時候,直到我苗栗的通宵經過地下電纜,再施送到北部"},{"start":9325.072,"end":9343.113,"text":"所以這個地方也要好好的溝通協調一樣你不要以為永安的重要苗栗的不重要從那邊一炸的話就完蛋了你也要好好的協調溝通我先跟你提醒一下是謝謝委員只有謝謝喔你回答他那麼多回答我那麼少謝謝兩句話"},{"start":9344.714,"end":9369.442,"text":"是代表關西南西要真的注意這個問題是是,我12萬分的感謝我還沒12萬分的感謝,官話就是這麼講我還是要叫你了解確實的地方在反應我給你曉得說,大概我們天南區它的陰濕路線中途站苗栗的通宵非常重要在這邊請你特別關心一下是,謝謝委員"},{"start":9370.842,"end":9397.67,"text":"那今天我們教會特別安排這個因應高齡化社會我國之會公共印記的發展其目標問題正在我們想推動的非常困難老人騎摩托車還是自己開車你說公共的設施、運輸、巴士現在做的人很少這個推展起來我看起來會比較困難"},{"start":9399.229,"end":9417.354,"text":"那我們召委非常關心高齡化社會老人開車的問題而且最近的新聞非常的熱門我也40年次了我也被記者問到說陳委員陳委員那你開車會不會有問題我說就沒有問題問我開車的問題每一個狀況不一樣但是這裡面已經產生了一個社會安全的問題"},{"start":9427.016,"end":9452.786,"text":"這裡面也變成歧視高齡化駕駛車的問題那我們召委非常的關心非常注重這個議題在上上個禮拜特別安排去車輛車市中心我想奇怪這個中心很少過去我從苗栗開車到彰化去參加我在那邊也學習了很多的知識也增長了很多原來車子是這樣發展"},{"start":9455.049,"end":9481.537,"text":"那今天講到高齡化的社會台灣65歲以上人口比例已經超過20那我們要保障像我們這樣包括你也一樣不曉得你的年齡我的年齡誰比較大看起來你是比我年輕多了你看起來像我弟弟一樣是 我是你弟弟不是不是 我說是比例講到年輕你就笑起來了真的很年輕但是我們都會遇到高齡化開車的問題"},{"start":9483.447,"end":9493.259,"text":"那我到車輛測試中心的時候我們把這個問題拿出來他也指點了我們幾個方向所以這邊我要請我們產業技術師的郭師長還有產業發展史我們的邱師長"},{"start":9503.437,"end":9510.345,"text":"還有我們國家發展委員會的戰務組委還有交通部的林常務處長還有運輸研究所的"},{"start":9516.499,"end":9536.559,"text":"那個王副所長,還有各位的書副之長,給你們這整個大頭出來,我要給你們講一個概念。在那裡面他們提到了,日本老人開車暴衝,或是說物彩煞車的機率降得非常低。我說日本人覺得是這麼厲害。"},{"start":9537.58,"end":9559.597,"text":"他們說有開始日本的世界上老人開車駕駛造勢的比例最好我想說日本我們台灣科技AI又要向我們台積電學習怎麼比我們台灣還厲害我就調查了一個資料這個資料我唸給部長你們在各位這是對老人一種保障跟開"},{"start":9560.643,"end":9566.027,"text":"他說跟日本警察廳的司機,2023年75歲以上駕駛人,涉及60%油門物產致死的車禍裡面,日本發展一個新科技,防止這種操作的"},{"start":9582.558,"end":9606.954,"text":"十五,要有兩項,這堆公家單位跟民間的企業真的要配合配合起來,你是一本通,部長你去一本要去調查,說他們安裝什麼,我告訴你這有哪是幾項,大行令,真的是大聲,車輛那麼多他說關鍵的行動是在公司部門合力推廣"},{"start":9608.255,"end":9634.581,"text":"輔助車也就是要配配先進的安全功能包括自動駕駛的車輛以這個分成兩種一種配配就是碰撞緩解煞車的一種系統車輛這一部分我不知道要怎麼說你要這個資料我給你我相信你一本通應該很了解而且你還有企業的經驗你如果有電子方面的經驗"},{"start":9636.201,"end":9661.734,"text":"他說這種姿勢是由日本封建的要用台灣,不然說封建Toyota你就說要用日本來我們要自己創造,自己創新自主的一種科技出來我先這樣說使用毫米多雷達偵測前方的車輛和行人如果看來即將發生碰撞系統會發出警告來提醒駕駛"},{"start":9663.243,"end":9690.589,"text":"如果車輛太高進系統會自動煞車來防止減輕碰撞的影響日本規定2021年11月所有他們日本國產車輛一定要必備的一個配備第二種就是油門物彩加速抑制的系統它叫做ACPE英文那麼長我就不好意思練了"},{"start":9692.062,"end":9712.375,"text":"由汽車製造商叫電手私事會社與豐田合作開發這個系統就是用感測監控車輛四周的環境如果駕駛人在霧體附近霧彩油門的時候一搭位一看就說那頭前有人他自動會踢了"},{"start":9714.389,"end":9724.441,"text":"這兩套系統我今天為什麼要特別提出來也感謝我們召委謝宇峰委員去的時候我們都在討論這個問題因為當初有發生我們最近部長說我今天怎麼把你們這裡大方叫來"},{"start":9729.79,"end":9757.283,"text":"第一個國安會如果這個有專案的預算國安會不要亂踩部長你要指導我這樣說你知道嗎這台隊你有兩個單位啊就是產業技術師他那天你們的新任的郭市長能力很優秀那天我們去參觀了所以我點出來你那邊有在場看你有夠啦沒夠啦看要獨立創新台灣電子的系統整合之後跟產業發展師"},{"start":9759.804,"end":9788.299,"text":"所以啊你以前在技師是兩個現在這樣呼調我希望你們真的研究一套比日本更傑出更好的一個系統過來國科會你要參加我為什麼把這幾個單位掉了你不可以去做那些說那些五四三的因為我們部長說AI邊緣運算這個裡面以後都會採取這樣的東西在做所以我們要組織團隊做出一種規格世界每一個"},{"start":9790.19,"end":9805.12,"text":"車輛公司都要來使用我一直啊交通部為什麼全然研究所那個醫師研究所為什麼你們都要參加回來不要單獨來因為各種狀況的模擬不一樣所以我一天出來"},{"start":9806.428,"end":9833.975,"text":"我去參觀了以後我覺得長了知識原來有這套的設計力我們如果你經濟部領導之下好好組織一個團隊來這種老人輔助的工具讓車子老人再開更安全我就想說這一點沒有說要坐車到滿天市老人不能開車年輕人的肇事率那麼多你就給他開車只是我們要用科技的方法"},{"start":9834.901,"end":9854.094,"text":"由於台灣在AI裡面會算一個領先者我今天拜託全能過來組織一個團隊專門研究這樣世界上藝人的汽車有多少那個才是真正能幫助老人解決開車的問題又能稱讚我們產業的價值保證你看賣嘛你會不會這樣來做?完全照委員的意思"},{"start":9860.618,"end":9885.444,"text":"我趕快組成這樣的一個專案這樣的小組馬上來執行因為這個跟安全有生命關係的部分都是我們努力的部分我感覺這個一定要做而且這個市場非常的大值得我們來推動值得你們推廣做出一個超越世界讓人家說台灣不但電視厲害現在還能發展到無人駕駛裡面這才重要"},{"start":9889.425,"end":9915.485,"text":"謝謝委員的提示這個對我們來講非常大的鼓勵啦我們會努力來做因為我覺得這個產業很大阿對於高齡的老人確實要照顧安全很多阿我們常常去公共阿預算不要亂載這條我會特別聽你們副委員通過做是最好的因為我的年齡以後開車子也要靠這個來幫忙啦我們要想到未來不要想到目前而已阿"},{"start":9916.226,"end":9923.589,"text":"我們現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答我先請一下郭部長然後再請林次長"},{"start":9948.89,"end":9966.897,"text":"我先請教一個問題其實大立埔遷村這個也謝謝部長也很積極在做推動那但是當地的鄉親們也很關心因為從2018年到現在其實也拖了這個相當長的時間了七年了那我只想問一下現在目前的初步規劃是2027年實質啟動遷村是這樣的方向嗎"},{"start":9972.747,"end":9989.289,"text":"因為我上個禮拜也有去跟陳市長來討論這個問題上個禮拜我有去那我們是盡量能夠越快越好所以啟動千春到底是怎麼樣因為我們先讓有意願的"},{"start":9990.31,"end":10009.062,"text":"所以當時有講到年底今年我們就先讓他有意願的先來登記今年年底前會啟動登記嘛對不對今年年底啟動登記然後那如果照這樣的目標因為全部都在走了那如果照這樣的目標2027年來啟動實質遷村我們要越快越好希望再更提前"},{"start":10010.063,"end":10024.489,"text":"但是我還是希望這個時間那今年年底來登記這樣完成然後另外2027 但更早更好了因為我相信等很久了包括他們也一直在到底房屋要不要修繕這也要跟市政府在旁邊這兩邊來合作這樣我是有拜託市長完全支持對"},{"start":10032.632,"end":10049.606,"text":"因為部長是主辦單位啦你主要是你經濟部是主辦的單位啦但市府是受你委託的單位所以可能主辦單位的這個再多催 多加把勁啦好不好讓整件事情快一點因為鄉親真的等很久了而且坦白講這也是當時從蔡總統到賴總統到陳市長"},{"start":10053.769,"end":10068.474,"text":"到歷任的部長我們的共同承諾啦那鄉親們也相信我們的承諾那也希望盡快啦給他們能夠搬遷到更適合的地點好不好好那就照這樣的目標好謝謝部長謝謝那我問一下林次長好不好交通部林次長林次長好部長請回座啦謝謝"},{"start":10074.048,"end":10089.04,"text":"市長先請教今天其實很多的關心到這個問題我先請教一下電動公車這前一陣子才剛發生的台北市的電動公車起火那運安會認為這是一個重大事故令到調查目前調查的結果是怎樣"},{"start":10091.229,"end":10113.99,"text":"報告委員還在調查中還沒有具體的那在還沒有調查中的時候會不會影響到其他的電動公車的整體的運作報告部長報告委員我們當天應該市政府已經把該路線20條同行車都停止運作然後做全面檢查那另外市府裡面有800多輛也全面一併檢查目前好像有一輛有狀況的樣子"},{"start":10116.152,"end":10130.767,"text":"所以其他還是繼續全國的都要檢查那其他的還是繼續在行駛當中其他不是這一型車的繼續運作但是因為有這樣的事件所以應該各家公司都會注意到它的這個電池系統有沒有異常"},{"start":10131.118,"end":10155.367,"text":"所以這一家業者的狀況因為我看了一下這一家製造商五年內有發生三次自燃的事件那顯然所以這一家的廠商的會特別去比較高度的去因為畢竟如果又再次發生的話這個坦白講這也蠻危險的有這樣的狀況就要釐清它到底是因為製造的問題還是維護保養的問題預定什麼時候這個調查報告會出來"},{"start":10159.213,"end":10167.361,"text":"包委員他還沒公佈時間 運安會還沒有公佈運安會沒有公佈 那預定多久 次長你認為像這樣的要多久要查出他的事實狀況"},{"start":10169.673,"end":10197.236,"text":"可能因為差異蠻大的因為您像航空它通常要一年那海運軌道就不一定那公路的話它目前還沒有沒有一個很不過這個也要加快啦因為如果你沒有辦法這個查明它的真相為什麼自然的真相的話大家都會擔憂嘛我們基本上就是同步啦一方面調查原因因為每個個案有它的形成原因"},{"start":10197.901,"end":10219.14,"text":"那第二個其他同行車跟電動車要注意的是電池的管理跟維護保養充電的過程我知道但是如果連調查這樣的事故要很長的時間的話這個市長這個交通部算是整個您也算是第三把交椅了那這個是一個很重要的"},{"start":10220.689,"end":10244.997,"text":"這應該給一個時間出來吧好 我們跟運安會來詢問一下市長 多久能夠出來抱歉 我沒有辦法替運安會回應盡快啦 好不好我覺得這些事情不能拖因為這會影響到人民的安全跟信心如果只是單一的廠商的單一的某個零件上出了問題那我們找到 我們當然可以盡快做出如果不是之間而已的話那恐怕會造成大家更大的擔憂這個我覺得要盡快"},{"start":10246.678,"end":10267.108,"text":"那現在搭這些電動公車的人的話如果我們還沒辦法查明的話那其實是是有風險的是有風險的所以我覺得還是要盡快來查明現有的幾個江山部有補助的大概五家有六款車型包括幾個國內的一些業者那當然剛才提到我希望"},{"start":10267.928,"end":10292.013,"text":"儘快去查明 如果是單一業者本身的設備有些問題那當然這一個業者部分要求要去改善那同時以人命安全為最優先要去暫時先去停止暫時要改善完畢才能夠使用那如果其他的也都有類似的問題的話那恐怕要整體做一些處理沒錯 確實如此我相信這幾家廠商看到這案例應該也會回頭看他們的系統有沒有相類似的問題"},{"start":10293.134,"end":10302.087,"text":"第二個在營運過程中發生的事件跟電池管理的問題可能都要回饋到設計跟製造商去調整"},{"start":10303.607,"end":10329.947,"text":"對 交通政策這個人命是最關鍵的如果你連公車上如果沒辦法給大家確保安全的話那這個是一個很嚴肅的問題啦更何況公車裡面很多可能都是相對都是一些比較老人小孩甚至弱勢者去使用的機率更高那更風險更是高所以我這一塊是請次長要加速要求今天我沒有逼你一定時間出來但是一定要快啦 好不好"},{"start":10330.487,"end":10350.981,"text":"人命的安全優先 如果再發生這樣的狀況 甚至造成人命的傷亡的話這恐怕是大家都承擔不起的那我接下來想要問的是 那到底我們現在所要挑戰的這些的電動巴士的 我們做好的準備現在目前預定在2030年要完成全面的電動化 這個看起來是沒辦法順利完成了嗎"},{"start":10351.802,"end":10374.12,"text":"鮑委員我們希望它後面越來越快啦那去年2024我們有達標今年需要再努力那照這樣的目標還是沒有改變嗎就是2030年完成目標還是一樣我們希望一萬一千台左右要全面電動我個人其實是支持這樣政策的因為就電動的話一方面我們當然希望對於這個運具能夠透過運具的減少"},{"start":10377.703,"end":10392.053,"text":"減少空污的影響 同時間也能夠 這個我是支持 特別是在空污嚴重地域 像我的選區高雄 我就非常支持 應該要加速推動我都希望當我們的這個製造業必須要因為生產而可能要產生一些"},{"start":10392.813,"end":10417.916,"text":"碳排甚至產生一些污染的同時的時候那至少在我們的大眾運輸在我們的運具上多盡量減少用碳排的如果能夠公車也用電動公車機車也用電動機車汽車也用我認為都是歡迎因為它只要稍微降一點點這個量的話都有機會讓我們的空污改善也許那個安全值就在那個接近了謝偉這也是為什麼我們報院也同意了為了大概用640億左右"},{"start":10419.577,"end":10438.464,"text":"所以後續上還是希望還是希望次長跟部裡面加速推動啦特別是在這些的本身製造業工業城市空污嚴重地區要加速來推動因為往往它每降一些移動污染源降一些其實對於整個空氣的整體的品質就也許就是那關鍵點"},{"start":10439.404,"end":10457.654,"text":"紅害變成這個橘景就好很多橘景變成黃色就好很多我認為那個都好很多但是如果在本身空污相對良好的空氣相對良好的地方的話這個當然是很好的指標但是那個效益性就更不一樣了好不好這個還是希望我們會跟高雄市政府積極來合作"},{"start":10460.003,"end":10488.798,"text":"所以照這樣來看的話這會全面來推動整個順利在還是要趕2030年完成這樣的目標這個目標不變那因為實際到了我最後也提一個其實像韓國的首尾已經把他的無人巴士也已經納入到營運了除了智慧化電動化以外另外無人的部分我也希望包括我們的經濟部包括我們的這個交通部包括國巴會無人載具大概都是現在未來的一個趨勢包括智慧化的這些的那"},{"start":10489.338,"end":10508.186,"text":"我還是希望像過去以來曾經旗津交通部下也有觀光署旗津過去我們講過很多的無人載具無碳島的想法我也希望未來旗津很簡單就是一個長條狀的所以它在海岸邊很有機會順利的能夠推動比如說我們用一個無人車的一個試辦的一個計畫"},{"start":10510.487,"end":10531.253,"text":"那很漂亮 你坐了渡輪到那邊之後 你可以坐上那個無人車也許從旗津走到中州再回到這邊那也會看到一面過去就是非常漂亮的海景就有點像賴富連海這樣子 或者像其他的所有的一些港灣港口城市一樣它非常漂亮的一些港景 同時間又能夠滴炭"},{"start":10531.733,"end":10555.673,"text":"同時又能夠用智慧化而且它又不會跟人行或者跟車輛尤其有交錯我希望這個包括交通部包括國發會這個整體思考一下來齊心來推動這樣的計畫好不好請部長可不可以評估看看是 謝謝委員那個基本上我們電動車的計畫有很大的一個目標也是希望帶動智慧化跟自駕車的"},{"start":10556.914,"end":10572.103,"text":"的發展所以這個部分我們希望在未來六七年能夠逐漸的智慧化跟自動化來前進第二個您提到其實這個地方我們跟市政府再來研究看看因為事辦計劃一般要由地方或是主辦方來提"},{"start":10572.583,"end":10588.715,"text":"那個部長一個1月先給我一份說明好不好你們跟市府溝通的結果我希望來試辦因為這個地點它其實你看到這個非常漂亮長條狀的而且它不會跟車輛跟其他交錯到那如果我們辦法把這個無人車跟整個"},{"start":10591.177,"end":10610.559,"text":"電動車的整個結合那在這邊做一些示範計畫的話效果也會非常的好啦那同時間也可以減少人力我們現在找司機越來越困難了嘛那如果幫他來示範而且迄今每年光光人口就有六七百萬這幾年各地啦包括韓國也很喜歡來到這個地方其他國家喜歡來這邊那我們機會展現出這樣的話會達到很好的效果"},{"start":10610.759,"end":10611.5,"text":"我們現在請李昆城委員做詢答"},{"start":10642.174,"end":10643.662,"text":"謝謝主席 請郭部長"},{"start":10656.85,"end":10681.667,"text":"這個本席請教一下部長您在5月26號還有6月21號都有針對這個關稅的問題對等關稅問題有接受媒體的訪問然後在5月26號的時候你有提到說這個關稅在談判進行當中不便對外透露細節但已經清楚了掌握美國到底要什麼國人可以放心台灣有把握拿到較好的關稅條件這是5月26號"},{"start":10684.108,"end":10700.505,"text":"但是在6月21號您的說法好像有一點改變你說目前重要的變數在於美國能否在實現之前跟日本、韓國、越南、歐盟等完成談判若有結果其他國就會比較好談那想請問一下部長這兩個時間點上面有什麼樣的變化嗎"},{"start":10707.274,"end":10733.025,"text":"報告委員我確實這樣子啦就是說美國他在談判這個關稅的時候他有分三個ROM就是綠色的黃色跟紅色的ROM他這次大概主要在談的都還是靠近在綠色的ROM比如說對美國比較友好的這些所以我們是在綠區就對了我們當然是18個國家都在綠區啦但是這個綠區的部分因為他在談判的過程每一個國家不會一樣"},{"start":10734.406,"end":10738.695,"text":"所以我們當然就是說會觀察嘛我後來在講的這個就是說韓國日本跟這個歐盟"},{"start":10743.649,"end":10761.915,"text":"我們在看這都是大的國家都是大的國家那他一定要美國一定要跟這些能夠談好嘛那這些談好這個基準他談好以後才會跟我們這些這個來談那我們當剛開始的時候我們在談我們跟他談完了以後我們發現說我們應該跟美國之間的差異並沒有那麼"},{"start":10766.943,"end":10789.739,"text":"就是美國要我們的然後我們這些沒有參與所以我在5月26號的時候曾經這麼講我們掌握了非常多美國的這個希望跟我們我們可能大部分都是在這種一些非關稅貿易障礙的部分比較多啦就關稅的部分我們其實沒有那麼大的這個差異所以那時候你談完你覺得是有信心的"},{"start":10790.299,"end":10806.913,"text":"可以拿到比較好的條件我們談判的小組回來跟我們大家分享大概狀況是這樣經濟部是負責搜尋這一些市場資訊我們發現事實上這個到六月的時候這個美國在談的時候它自己的進度"},{"start":10808.291,"end":10826.74,"text":"一直在delay而且我們發現說跟我們這個當初的這個simulation裡面有一點點小的這個差異這個小的差異是在於美國他們現在談判的過程裡面那個不確定性增加了不確定性增加譬如說這個"},{"start":10829.301,"end":10842.872,"text":"美國對英國的這個車的關稅雖然調降回來10%但是它有限量它是限量它一定要在10萬輛規模以下才享有這些優惠的稅率那這個"},{"start":10845.136,"end":10870.268,"text":"這個關稅又只限美國跟英國兩個國家所以這個對我們在談判後面要談判的就有很多的空間可以來進行我們在發現說它可能不是一體適用不是全世界對美國來談判是多方的談判 沒有它可以談到彼此對等至於對等的定義是什麼我們當然要觀察"},{"start":10870.908,"end":10891.541,"text":"他對日本對韓國因為這兩個國家對台灣來講是非常非常的重要因為我們有很多的這個在這個工業上面特別是輕工業資訊工業上面我們高度重疊半導體所以我們不能夠說我們今天談下來的關稅遇到比較這個不利的這個狀況"},{"start":10892.728,"end":10920.926,"text":"那因為我們在過去碰到這個關稅的問題的時候總統也好行政院院長也好我們都一起去到各個這個產業去座談我們也充分的了解業者的這個期許啦業者希望我們在談判的那一組人能夠談下一個不歧視的關稅也就是說那部長那現在你的意思是說像日本韓國歐盟他們先談好之後我們才有辦法談嗎"},{"start":10922.367,"end":10941.381,"text":"不是在他們談的條件的這個限制之下我們再來談嗎我們當然這個談不是我們主動美國說我們跟美國說我當時要說就可以了可是因為60天的那個緩衝起因快結束了對快結束了我們應該是會在因為我們是比較穩定對美國來講說台灣是比較穩定比較穩定的一個國家"},{"start":10946.084,"end":10963.07,"text":"所以對於要跟台灣談他認為說應該是比較容易談的一個部分那他美國對日本跟韓國因為日本因為他有很大的利益在汽車上面韓國也很大的這個利益在汽車跟造船上面"},{"start":10963.77,"end":10991.289,"text":"這兩個issue跟台灣都沒有關係所以他會先談完那其實我們台灣的優勢是在於我們AI的晶片跟我們AI的server那另外一個就是我們的傳統產業所以我們關心的是傳統產業的部分那傳統產業大概是競爭的啦所以我再請教一下部長就是說那你6月21號你的專訪我是覺得說奇怪那是不是沒有像你在5月底的時候談得這麼有信心呢"},{"start":10991.969,"end":11016.325,"text":"我們當然是到目前為止談下來我跟委員報告因為這還沒有談完嘛所以我們應該是有信心不至於談出一個對日本或者韓國更差的這個關稅這個我們應該是具有高度信心好 OK那我先為大家有時間到我再做一個問題我請這個交通部的次長好不好林次長"},{"start":11023.419,"end":11026.825,"text":"這個你們是2030年客運車輛電動化預計要達到這個市區公車全面電動化的目標是不是那我剛有聽到委員講說這個目標可能會跳票"},{"start":11038.195,"end":11053.629,"text":"沒有目前還是照這方向來走因為去年2024我們是有達標那你說如果到2030年接下來的五年都要達標的話每年大概市區的這個電動公車大概要貸還多少"},{"start":11056.199,"end":11080.611,"text":"現在一萬一千台市區公共車嘛那我剛剛報告裡面也有我們現在已經有33,3288,3200多輛設計跟已經使用中的所以還有7000輛7年,一兩千輛每年所以市長是認為說還是在2030年之前市區的公車這個是我們的目標那我再問一下因為後面會越來越快那可是我們的這一個呢國道的這一個電動大客車勒"},{"start":11083.711,"end":11109.663,"text":"現在我們在國道上面有電動大客車嗎同步在開發但是它的規格跟使用性能會不一樣我們現在在國道上面有電動大客車在跑嗎目前沒有 只有公路客運有一些我認真說沒有啊我問的資料應該是沒有啊所以現在在國道上面都還沒有電動大客車在跑就對了那你們預計是哪時候電動大客車會在國道上面跑"},{"start":11111.019,"end":11134.833,"text":"這個我請市長回應好跟我們報告一下確實就是說國道客運使用的續航力跟這個相關的性能要求比較高那目前相關的業者在做開發當中那目前大概有些這個車型出來那目前還在做性能上面的這個調校我們也很期待希望說在今年年底或明年初能夠有符合國道客運的這個車子能夠出來"},{"start":11135.253,"end":11152.516,"text":"今年底或明年初因為有業者在抱怨就是說他已經跟這一個電動車公司已經簽好約那個有這個路線可以跑那結果因為呢這個電動大哥車他做不出來結果他的路線也被取消掉了就有這種情況"},{"start":11154.226,"end":11177.796,"text":"這個部分據我所了解的一個部分的話這個當然聽得到他這個業者當時拿到這個案這個路線那對審議會我想也是公務局承諾的這個條件那後面他跟相關的這個電動大客車業者去訂定相關這個採購車輛基本上也有一個這個合約啦那我想說有一些這個業者"},{"start":11179.797,"end":11207.573,"text":"兩方相關交車這個正義的這個部分的話我們是比較建議可能要循他們的合約來做處理司契約是歸司契約那大家就是按照這個法律途徑在講那我我是認為說既然這個電動客車大客車是這個部裡面的這一個計畫不論是市區公車或是說這一個我們國道上面的這個電動大客車我們都有補助嘛對不對都有補助那我是希望說相關的配套措施尤其在國道"},{"start":11208.513,"end":11219.673,"text":"客運的這個相關措施你要做好 而不然你車子第一個你現在還沒辦法上路 第二個就是說它的這些充電樁之類的配套措施好像也都還沒有完成啊"},{"start":11222.038,"end":11243.37,"text":"除了車輛本身的一個相關性能的一個要求之外那另外有關於在廠站端這些相關充電設施的部分我們對於這個國道客運或是未來一般公路客運的協助會跟現在市區客運一樣相關的廠站端這些相關的充電窗還包括這個充電這個智慧管理平台的這個部分我們公路局都會來做協助"},{"start":11244.771,"end":11258.041,"text":"因為這個是部裡面的這個計畫啦我是希望說就好好監督齁能夠讓他順利的能夠上路啦好謝謝市長好謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答"},{"start":11272.725,"end":11287.455,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們是不是先請交通部次長 林次長林次長和公路局副局長副局長蔡委員長好 次長"},{"start":11288.342,"end":11308.733,"text":"那因為今天我們召委在關心的關於說這個老齡化他去使用的這個客運的問題那事實上我們也知道像是很多偏鄉也不用說到完全偏鄉像現在我們嘉義縣嘉義縣大概晚上之後幾乎就沒有客運了"},{"start":11309.853,"end":11337.472,"text":"完全過去的客運功能完全已經沒了就是說不管是到台北啦高雄啦大家都覺得說哇這個投報率來越低可能承載的人數也少那就變得說沒有就沒有這樣的一個客運服務了那我想要請教次長那因為這種有一點是因為市場導向的然後造成了這個客運的終止那這樣的情況站在交通部的立場你們是樂見嗎還是你們覺得"},{"start":11339.753,"end":11355.979,"text":"就让它市场下去报言当然不乐见我们不乐见公共运输退场的这么快但是现在的状况是可能委员也知道我们在疫情期间很多私人硬具是有注册或购买"},{"start":11356.539,"end":11383.589,"text":"那有一部分的使用者在那段時間是轉到私人運區去那第二個呢是我們也曾經注意到客運車的駕駛相對壓力比較大因為他會面臨乘客的抱怨或是路線比較長疲勞駕駛的問題甚至剛剛游委員也提到他可能會有用餐上廁所的一些壓力所以這些課題如果不能夠逐步來處理大概公路駕駛會不太容易找得到"},{"start":11384.469,"end":11412.812,"text":"對因為你剛講到有所謂的私人的一個運具但是他畢竟他是不是很大客群他是懂得去使用這個私人運具的人他才有辦法尤其是在這種跑長城的比方我就是說如果從嘉義要到台北我晚上在趕不上最後一班的高鐵10點半的高鐵我趕不上了那我有其他選擇嗎好像沒有除了自用車以外就是轎車了"},{"start":11415.742,"end":11431.202,"text":"但是客运这一块就没了所以市长你说你不乐见那交通部要提出怎样的替代方式去延长这些客运的寿命也好还是他们能够继续提供服务"},{"start":11432.209,"end":11451.202,"text":"跟委員報告這個全世界可能都面臨一樣的問題一個缺工第二個是這個駕駛人在超過65歲以上的時候其實有些駕駛他還有一定的能力像計程車的步我們就放得比較快那所以有關是否把駕駛年齡延長第二個是否能找到更多的駕駛來源"},{"start":11453.724,"end":11465.771,"text":"包含我們前陣子討論的這個外籍駕駛通通是我們努力的方向不過目前並沒有很好的一個結果啦所以市長我想這個事實上這也有很多矛盾你說要駕駛年齡延長啊不然你現在延長了我也沒辦法預見說駕駛年齡延長"},{"start":11477.728,"end":11492.865,"text":"那後面這一段到底要延長多久延長到66歲67歲這個延長的部分還需要精細的討論因為畢竟不是說直接依照工序來處理有些部分還是要看年齡的部分"},{"start":11493.939,"end":11509.701,"text":"那第二個是駕駛人的部分我們今天的主題就是智慧運輸跟自動駕駛能否幫助駕駛降低他的壓力以及行車安全所以我們也希望透過智慧運輸智慧公車的提供"},{"start":11510.922,"end":11530.255,"text":"讓駕駛的壓力降低以後能夠用這個方式來吸引新的駕駛人員來進行當然啦我們期待未來可以有無人載具智慧運輸來取代這樣的一個客運的服務但是我覺得次長還是要去關注到啦在偏鄉本身的公共運輸的能量就很不足那"},{"start":11531.155,"end":11549.791,"text":"又因為偏鄉然後你再說這個駕駛人數的一個限制的話這個在偏鄉更嚴重所以我們交通部還是要去顧及到很多不同的城鄉落差整個地方我要找個公共運輸就沒有辦法找不到"},{"start":11550.211,"end":11569.711,"text":"而且本身地方的年輕人也不足,他要說叫家人待在,也沒有年輕人,年輕人都出外所以為什麼會開始把幸福巴士導入幸福小房的作用大概是這個就是說用計程車來協助非特定路線的公共運輸那第二個我們同仁也在研議"},{"start":11570.932,"end":11589.473,"text":"有些如果连幸福小房都没有那更偏远的郊区或是山区可不可以开放社会型的服务比如说这个团体协会来参与我们的公共运输服务这个在别的地区是有那目前就是还没有正规化来导入"},{"start":11590.615,"end":11607.851,"text":"對 既然有方法我覺得就要去嘗試看看了這個大概就是對 記得市長你都講到說可能用一些工協會由他來扮演的適度的運輸的角色市長你要工協會扮演對不對但是你很多配套還是要先給他第一個就是說"},{"start":11609.342,"end":11629.418,"text":"這個你叫協會去當駕駛他們的車他還是要符合規格他要符合規格但是我跟你說他們很多是會害怕的我之前有遇過一些類似消防的就是要帶老人去長照中間一小段對不對你知道"},{"start":11630.592,"end":11648.431,"text":"他們駕駛是不敢把老人從車上把他扶到車下他會怕他會怕什麼他怕後續的一些責任問題他沒有受過正當的教育課是啊是啊他就會有這些責任問題所以所以我要說很多時候你們好"},{"start":11649.452,"end":11674.924,"text":"大方法抓出來那剩下一些配套一些要解套然後一些讓這些駕駛人他們適度的一些責任應該要讓他們有豁免的機會不然他要塞車然後要救整車的老人他也是怕的應該是兩個方面一個就是提升他的職能讓他認識了解他要做的工作那第二個豁免的部分可能要思考怎麼來補強他"},{"start":11677.645,"end":11699.292,"text":"這部分我想可以再想辦法啦偏鄉地方對於公共運輸的需求我覺得這個交通部你們在思考台灣的發展交通的時候一定要注意到城鄉的差距越偏鄉的地方開始進戶本門應該更好的好不好謝謝委員好來市長先回然後是不是再請經濟部郭部長郭部長"},{"start":11708.12,"end":11712.203,"text":"我們來討論一下時事現在以伊戰爭看起來伊朗國會已經批准要封鎖赫默茲海峽"},{"start":11721.638,"end":11739.068,"text":"那封鎖了赫默茲海峽大概整個石油從中東的石油大概會斷裂那如果以台灣對台灣的影響來說台灣有超過六成的石油或者也還有兩成以上的天然氣是來自包括沙烏地阿拉伯啦包括科威特包括"},{"start":11739.828,"end":11764.14,"text":"卡達啦 這樣的一些中東國家所以會產生這樣石油供應的斷鏈跟天然氣那未來勢必可以想像 可能油價會上漲那油價會上漲這件事情兩個直接衝擊 中油跟台塑那部長 我們未來對中油我們因應油價上漲 我們要怎樣的對策嗎"},{"start":11766.201,"end":11790.54,"text":"報告委員我想油價的部分因為我們還有一個亞林最低價這樣一個部分存在所以我想這個行政院他應該會去考量這部分不是經濟部的業務啦我們是盡量配合這個行政院的這個指示來因應但是我們有做了一些推估大概會漲多少做了一些推估不過經濟部現在關切的是這個20%的油到25%的氣"},{"start":11795.164,"end":11795.306,"text":"這裏那旁邊"},{"start":11797.942,"end":11824.549,"text":"這個供給上面不順利的時候我要怎麼來彌補這個市場的這個需求啦所以我們經濟部現在大部分都在著力於對量的穩定量的穩定啦介紹的部分因為我們有供應量的穩定很重要就是要有一些替代的一些能源的一些來源啦但是部長我現在我想要問這一題我比較想要呼籲的就是說"},{"start":11825.589,"end":11834.765,"text":"我們中油 畢竟中油是國營事業啦那如果亞林最低價那當然中油就要去吸收要去吸收這一些油價的"},{"start":11836.001,"end":11856.402,"text":"但是另外一間台塑,台塑面對整個中國的石化業產能過剩所以台塑已經面對很大的衝擊這次的油價如果上漲,對台塑是可以說雪上加霜,更嚴重"},{"start":11857.822,"end":11871.854,"text":"台塑這間公司這樣經營下去壓力這麼大,勢必會面對台灣很多的就業市場,不然我想你已經知道,很多台灣的員工在台塑上班,你看賣料那裡,現在賣料那裡已經變成一個很大的鄉鎮,你看我們自己的台北比較新鋼,"},{"start":11878.761,"end":11898.124,"text":"那也幾乎都是在台塑或是台塑的關係企業那如果未來台塑跟中油一樣面對油價上漲然後有面對這個油價要吸收成本的這樣的危機的時候雖然它是一些私人企業但是它已經大到我們政府應該要去關心它保證這塊是不是你可以"},{"start":11900.885,"end":11920.904,"text":"報告委員我們現在大概就是對油價的目前大概在75塊到85塊這個地方我們還在評估當然更高的時候我想我們會從這個影響CPI這個物價指數上面來看那根據我們的模型來推論如果油價上漲10%影響CPI大概只有0.3%"},{"start":11924.927,"end":11941.533,"text":"對於這私人企業因為他大到影響我們會來跟他接觸來尋求跟他做充分的溝通看需要怎樣來倒三缸我的意思是這樣我覺得跟台秀應該和你對話因為台秀這間企業已經這麼大這麼多員工在那裡上班所以我們也不想看到台秀有裁員的狀況一個裁員就是很多家庭他少了這樣的一個依靠"},{"start":11953.857,"end":11972.309,"text":"所以台塑要怎麼讓它可以至少要撐過你說中國的產能過剩再加上這一次以異戰爭可能會面對的一個能源危機這個部分中有需要台塑這也是可能我們國家的台東應該也是要來關係化當然我們就是現在台塑是大企業"},{"start":11973.47,"end":12000.027,"text":"那大企業有大企業的運作模式現在我們經濟部主要還是對中小微企業我們著力比較深啦當然委員現在關注到這個命題我們會回去以後馬上召集我們部裡面的這些同仁來想跟這個你們應該思考一下啦所以我也沒辦法有大案啦因為畢竟它是私人企業我可以想像因為在我的選區我好多人都都是台所上班他們都會歡樂"},{"start":12002.528,"end":12023.796,"text":"這員工在替老闆在擔心是 這個部分台塑應該是我們會去考量基本上還是要反映成本我們還是盡量讓他反映成本這個部分我想我們會跟台塑然後我們整體所有的相關的同仁我們會來努力好 謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請翁曉琳委員做詢答"},{"start":12039.779,"end":12044.392,"text":"主席好 這邊有請國發會的詹副主委"},{"start":12051.551,"end":12061.759,"text":"我也好是詹副主委好我想在今年的3月27號其實當時本院的未還委員會曾經也邀請國發會來就少子女化的議題來進行備詢那當時國發會的參與的可能是某位處長就說少子"},{"start":12071.567,"end":12089.572,"text":"少子女化的问题已经提高到行政院层级了那么是由这个当时的是由政务委员陈时中来负责统筹相关的作为这个统筹相关的权责部会也就是交由行政院的社会福利推动委员会来主办"},{"start":12089.972,"end":12111.363,"text":"那麼現在本席想了解就是說因為你依照國發會組織法第二條第六款的規定其實國發會它是主管人力資源發展政策那麼就之前的這個處長的詢答說已經不包括少子女化政策了那麼現在我們今天討論的這個高齡化或是超高齡化的相關的政策推動是不是仍然是屬於國發會的主則"},{"start":12114.575,"end":12132.666,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們的業務當然會有跟人力高齡化少子化這些業務相關這個沒錯但是因為有些議題它的重要性蠻高的所以像我們上次應該是人力處處長回復委員的意思就是說像少子化這個問題"},{"start":12133.727,"end":12149.959,"text":"其實還有高齡化這個問題 其實他們的層次都是在行政院的層次因為這個是我們未來長期發展非常重要的課題所以這些跨部會的議題現在是由相關的政務委員在督導各部會來推動那您本身不是又是政務委員嗎 國發會的主委 政務委員來兼國發會的主委"},{"start":12155.643,"end":12171.55,"text":"那所以就是這個國發會主委現在就完全不負責相關的政策因為在這裡譬如說你們在今天報告裡面有寫到高齡社會白皮書高齡社會白皮書當時的主筆單位是主筆機關是哪一個機關是國發會嗎應該不是啦應該不是好那本席要講就是說因為依照你們自己國發會組織法裡面的規定其實人力資源發展政策它應該是一個全面性的"},{"start":12186.583,"end":12205.869,"text":"一个政策的规划那现在呢看起来像总统府跟行政院的内部就是组织叠床架屋又成立了很多的各式各样不同的委员会或是顾问会推动小组等等那反而是架空了你们国发会的原来的这个执掌所以现在国发会到底扮演什么样的功能"},{"start":12206.289,"end":12228.082,"text":"其實並不會這樣子啦,跟委員報告,譬如說本會劉組委他是政務委員但是行政院政務委員有好幾位,他們都各自有分工那以本會為例,劉組委在擔任政務委員他主要的分工是像經濟、像財政金融等等那剛剛提到的少子化、高齡化的分工上,目前可能是以陳時中、陳政委為主導"},{"start":12229.042,"end":12246.571,"text":"所以這些那很多要落實到各部會執行的時候那這個時候就有各部會他要做的事情那有些統籌協調的工作譬如說或者像公共建設計畫審議等等那這個本會當然責無旁貸好的了解了那現在我要講的就是說因為國發會你不要忘記其實過去在這個"},{"start":12249.713,"end":12273.521,"text":"在国民党执政时代国发会都是非常重要的一个机关它会针对整个国家的发展不管是在经济、社会、卫福还有人力产业发展等等都会提出非常精辟的联系报告然后提出很好的政策但是曾经核实国发会看起来功能已经越来越弱而且都会被一些非法定组织"},{"start":12274.701,"end":12289.446,"text":"來取代變成這些所謂的總統底下的委員會或行政院這些顧問小組等等看起來他們的權力可能都還比國發會大但我認為說這個是不對的其實蠻多政策國發會還是在推動跟規劃接下來我想講的就是說這個國發會想請教詹副主委你知不知道有一個中華民國人口政策綱領"},{"start":12303.184,"end":12305.749,"text":"過去是有但我不知道現在在這個當裡應該還是你們貴會主管的吧"},{"start":12308.566,"end":12317.493,"text":"對 我的意思是說我們現在在推動幾個主要跟人口有關的包含國家競爭力方案 包含人口推顧等等我想要講的就是 因為時間的關係這個綱領到目前為止都還是放在國科會的人就是國發會的人口政策區那麼事實上這已經是103年當時所提出的人口政策綱領到現在已經114年了 經過了10年"},{"start":12333.886,"end":12347.562,"text":"這些政策人口政策難道不需要經過檢討嗎是當然需要所以國發會你說你們有做那你們到底這些年來做了什麼你們有沒有提出最新的或是每五年就要有一個新的人口政策綱領"},{"start":12349.298,"end":12362.556,"text":"对否则的话我们现在看到就是一盘散沙一回少子化一回高龄化那对于整个的台湾的未来的整个的人口政策的它的图像以及我们要怎么样走没有就看不出来那这部分"},{"start":12364.458,"end":12387.153,"text":"我希望就是詹副主委這邊可以這個回去好要帶領你們的同仁要重新再去擬定新的人口政策綱領那至於就是說高齡的相關議題不好意思麻煩稍微再給我一分鐘就是現在國發會官網上面也只有看到有關於老年經濟的安全但是我們知道其實高齡的高齡化社會政策其實不只是老年經濟安全"},{"start":12389.054,"end":12399.881,"text":"它還包含其他的面向例如我們今天講的智慧公共運具等等所以你們在老年經濟安全這裡其實應該要把它所討論的範圍擴大而且也不是只面向在經濟安全對 在居住安全 社會安全甚至在法治上的安全我覺得都應該要全面性的考量我希望就是國發會還是能夠扮演在整個台灣國家發展"},{"start":12418.414,"end":12428.018,"text":"這個方面的領頭羊機關的角色而不是說現在變成是看起來像是行政院或總統府的小弟或是他們的幕僚機關他們做什麼然後你們再幫忙去擬稿我覺得這樣的方式是不對的希望能夠提供相關的這個相關的政策研擬"},{"start":12440.655,"end":12442.715,"text":"我們現在請葉元芝委員做詢答首先我們請經濟部長 郭部長"},{"start":12478.53,"end":12501.709,"text":"委員好部長好左邊賴清德總統開啟他的國安史獎第一獎特別提到台灣的經濟產業很棒裡面有一個是有提到我們的扣件產業像螺絲、螺帽、外銷比例到九成工具機是全世界第三大但現在因為川普政策關稅政策的關係所以這些產業其實都受到一些衝擊"},{"start":12503.35,"end":12510.394,"text":"勞動部在6月16號的時候發布一個最新的資料說我們現在五星價已經有160家企業共2895人受到影響那其中製造業的影響很大"},{"start":12518.999,"end":12537.632,"text":"那特別是直接針對直接是因為對等關稅影響的裡面呢也是以製造業居多然後金屬機械是重災區那所以我們現在必須要趕快來把這個川普的關稅政策把它處理好那我看到部長你那個前兩天有時候接受媒體訪問啦"},{"start":12538.473,"end":12555.905,"text":"比如說現在有兩個很大的變數那這兩個變數感覺上好像都沒有一個答案所以郭文貴看就很緊張就第一個你有提到說美國要等到跟日本、韓國、歐盟、越南等大國談完之後才會有一個比較明確答案這個是你受訪的時候講的沒錯吧"},{"start":12557.738,"end":12581.665,"text":"報告委員 我想變數不會說只有一個有兩個啦 我是說其實對我現在只是討論一個甚至更多啦那我們是在講說有這兩個變數會影響我們在關稅的談判那第一個我覺得像第一項聽起來就會蠻緊張的因為我記得當時川普關稅政策剛出來的時候政府一直告訴國人說大家放心因為我們是在第一批談判名單裡面"},{"start":12582.685,"end":12590.934,"text":"仍然是第一批盤旦然後都一直釋出訊息告訴我們說沒問題啦 我們可以很快談完那時候還講說什麼選對人 走對路 選錯人關稅125啊講了很多口號但現在眼看7月8號關稅暫緩期就要到了"},{"start":12602.045,"end":12631.127,"text":"但現在政府又告訴大家說我們要等到其他國家談完我們才可能會有個比較明確答案那像日本日本現在態度很硬啊跟美國在談的時候立場也談得很硬啊感覺時間就要拖到很久啊所以這樣的一個進度我覺得大家會真的非常憂心特別是我剛剛有提到有一些無心價都已經出來了嘛然後第二個部長你有提到還有一個變數是我們要想要知道美國真正想要什麼他到底希望透過關稅政策解決什麼樣的問題對不對"},{"start":12632.108,"end":12652.242,"text":"那不知道就你的了解他到底想要什麼美國大概這一次的關稅大概有三個面向第一個解決他的貿易的問題第二個解決他金融失衡的問題第三個解決他製造空洞化的問題所以我們要了解在這三個面向裡面到底其中的比率大概是怎麼樣子"},{"start":12653.163,"end":12670.118,"text":"那我們能夠提供給美國的他所需要的這個部分我們可以給他多少的成分那我相信這個是有助於我們在談判的時候可以比其他的國家跟美國在談判的時候我們可以取得優勢我要跟委員報告的是我們"},{"start":12671.179,"end":12693.655,"text":"在這一次的這個關稅談判的過程裡面總統跟院長我們都在實際的下鄉去了解所有的產業他們到底他們的痛點在哪裡那麼所以我們才會盤出六大傳統產業他們可能會面臨到這個衝擊所以我們這一次的這一個特別預算也是根據這個衝擊來編列的謝謝"},{"start":12697.598,"end":12719.719,"text":"其實您現在講的東西跟那個時候川普關稅政策剛提出來的東西都差不多啦等於說這兩個月過去我們沒有發現有什麼新的進展那當然政府可能會覺得我們不能夠向外界透露訊息可是你看國際的例子比如說日本日本他們很多訊息在國內都有討論因為國內的輿情就是我們談判代表對外的籌碼"},{"start":12720.939,"end":12742.297,"text":"所以我會覺得國人擔心的地方就在這邊說是不是我們其實沒有什麼進展所以不能講到時候7月8號開盲盒啊就說啊我們就這樣談啦然後很多談判的立場並沒有站在台灣的角度都是我看到我們官員講話都是一副就是什麼美國的繁榮不能沒有台灣啊什麼台灣要什麼台美共榮好像都站在美國的角度"},{"start":12743.138,"end":12769.04,"text":"我覺得這個是大家比較擔心的部分然後再來其中還有我覺得關稅政策到目前為止都沒有定案對於汽車產業也會受影響買車的也會受影響因為現在很多買車都在觀望不曉得說到底汽車的價錢會怎麼樣會不會降下來所以觀望的態度非常的重那我看到經濟部講說在跟美國談判的話要先確定關稅再談貨物稅是這樣嗎"},{"start":12771.657,"end":12785.573,"text":"報告委員汽車關稅減讓的部分我想影響還是可以控制的那我們在做一些推論的時候在關稅因為我們對小客車整車並沒有外銷美國"},{"start":12786.474,"end":12810.155,"text":"所以美國的車照台灣來的比重也不高所以我們要怎麼談到底是談出來這個關稅只適合台美之間的這樣的適用的關稅還是因為我們是WTO的國家我們是不是這個關稅談下來以後要因為其他國家會不會比照嘛所以這個部分我們都會關心部長這樣子因為你們產發署的書長講說"},{"start":12814.039,"end":12838.22,"text":"美英有一個談判架構協議啦 他們談的就是適用美國跟英國他說我們可不可以比照 但那個是他想的啦我們能比照也不是我們自己說的算嘛所以其他國是我們可以參考在談判上面適用問題是實際上到WTO能不能又是另外一回事嘛所以其實談關稅的變數很大第二個 關稅其實不是只有稅率的問題 還有配額的問題嘛"},{"start":12839.941,"end":12861.611,"text":"我們現在美國進口車進來一年是75輛是限額到時候美國又跟你講說要談關稅是不是除了稅率之外限額也要提高所以這個事情並不是部長你講的對台灣企業產業的衝擊就只有說您剛講那個這麼簡單我覺得那個是很複雜的問題我反而是建議說你可以先討論貨物稅因為貨物稅是進口車本土的車都降"},{"start":12867.054,"end":12883.066,"text":"都這樣情況之下對於汽車產業影響比較小而且國人買車比較便宜所以對於經濟部這樣的談判順序我認為不應該是要等到關稅談完之後再談貨物稅經濟部應該要跟產業部說其實我們可以先從降貨物稅開始做起"},{"start":12884.849,"end":12905.363,"text":"謝謝委員這一部分我想我們都會參考來作為將來這個施政的一個方式這個不是參考將來啦因為現在正在進行是其實我們是蠻強烈建議經營部趕快跟財政部說貨物稅現在就可以降了那你可以用降貨物稅這個角度去跟美國人講嘛到時候美國車進來之後也會比較便宜啊否則你關稅談會很複雜要等比較久"},{"start":12911.207,"end":12924.238,"text":"然後還有最後我再問一個人員問題因為最近高雄有一個光電的案子引起國人很大的關注就是高雄大樹區不知道你們有沒有看到那個畫面它一片山頭上面全部被蓋光電板"},{"start":12925.069,"end":12950.802,"text":"後來高雄市政府講說那個是什麼廠商過度開發但實際上很多人講在那個山頭可以把樹這樣砍掉然後光電板放上去那麼一大片就是一個很奇怪的事情因為按照規定如果你的坡度超過30%的話就應該要限制開發所以光電板可以鋪這麼多可以核准也很怪啦那我當然知道說你沒有壓力啦因為可能你在2026年你要達到綠電20%嘛"},{"start":12952.643,"end":12978.319,"text":"所以這個部分要積極在推可是如果推綠電造成環境破壞這樣也不好啦所以這個部分進一步有沒有去有一些新的做法出來嗎有 我們就是配合這個整個的這個法規法規的規定那它已經超過它被允許的這個範圍我們當然去制止禁止它再開發下去這是第一個那我們"},{"start":12980.002,"end":13008.108,"text":"經濟部基本上還是合法合規一定再把法放在前面那這個整個的進行的過程裡面我想謝謝委員的關注我們也非常的重視這個雖然我們對綠電的需求非常的強大但是我們絕不允許業者可以違法違規所以這個違法違規的部分就是我們在處理的重點我們快速在處理這件事情所以不可能它再開發下去"},{"start":13008.988,"end":13027.729,"text":"我們不希望說類似的案例一直不斷發生啦因為這個案子其實已經進行好幾年了是最近因為被爆發出來而且那個空拍圖看起來非常的嚇人所以社會開始討論政府才開始有作為啦我們希望說其他案子也不要發生一樣的狀況啦是 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 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各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大任貴委員會報告現行育證與受刑人處理機制之制度檢討並被質詢深感榮幸 以下請就本部相關業務責要報告如下口頭要報告未經支柱 請各位委員參閱書面"},{"start":2117.447,"end":2139.267,"text":"我們現行的累進處理制度是源於這個新型累進處理條例它最早是在民國35年制定,36年實施那共計77條,迄今修正7次但是呢,自95年7月1日後就沒有再修正過了那該制度呢,對於受刑人具有設定階段目標培養責任意識等功能"},{"start":2139.947,"end":2158.846,"text":"但是因為年代久遠許多的相關權利事項疊經司法解釋實務見解均有所調整本部矯正署也在107年、108年分別委託研究並綜合相關意見作為制度檢討方向之參佐"},{"start":2160.667,"end":2180.594,"text":"相關的意見包含考核的方式非常繁雜級別的處理也不合時宜譬如說條文中關於收音機或照片等等這個條文相當老舊已經不符現代的需求一般監獄的縮行日數跟外監差異過大以及縮行會影響假釋要件的執行等等"},{"start":2182.094,"end":2209.825,"text":"整查等等的執行的現況都有精進檢討改進的空間所以也提出了短中長期的改進的計畫目前一般的處遇的狀況包含我們有很多的教化及文康的活動包含最重要的就是要來強化家庭跟社會的支持所以各角色機關都會在重大的節日來辦理面對面的懇親會"},{"start":2211.245,"end":2228.437,"text":"並且在平常就用各種方式協助受刑人跟家庭保持聯繫讓他們未來復歸社會來預作準備另外我們也結合相當多的社會資源當然教會志工還有演講以及圖書室、書冊等等的"},{"start":2231.098,"end":2251.248,"text":"特別針對高齡或身心障礙所有人我們也有開設相關的視訊課程或活動各項才藝班、文攤活動還有受刑人的教育事項他們都可以在監獄裡面來從事補習教育或等等的進修都有可能也辦理受刑人個別化的處遇"},{"start":2252.888,"end":2272.773,"text":"計劃跟這個針對特殊族群的另外訂定像高齡者身心障礙或是自殺風險者的加強的處理計劃那麼在受刑人出監前也會依照個別的這個評估的結果有必要時便會召開這個轉嫌的會議引導地方中央各機關的網絡單位來銜接這個受刑人的處理那麼作業"},{"start":2277.814,"end":2293.473,"text":"勞作金的部分 請各位參閱書面那麼我們現在 還有衛生醫療那麼未來的處於的經濟方向 最主要呢累進處於的制度 前面說明許多需要這個改進的空間所以呢 這個"},{"start":2294.935,"end":2312.924,"text":"短期內我們就行政的方式可以調整譬如說收容機照片等等我們已經做了調整但是關於縮型日數差異等等這一些必須要透過修法來進行所以我們將來會用所謂的階段儲育制度來取代現在的累進儲育制度"},{"start":2313.604,"end":2340.674,"text":"那因為因應了憲法法庭113年憲判之第二號判決關於這個無期徒刑撤銷假釋的這個判決那因為跟我們累計處遇條例也是連動的所以我們目前已經請繳稅署加速完成這個部內的審查客證辦理送行政院來審查審查中會盡速的配合這個修法的期程來提出於大院進行大院會來支持這個修法的這個進度"},{"start":2342.062,"end":2366.85,"text":"那麼未來很重要的是因為我們高齡化社會 監獄也高齡化了所以我們在未來1.5年期預定要推動收容人樂齡健康照護計畫改善監所裡面對於高齡者的處遇那麼已經在1.4年的5.6日3號進行核定目前積極的爭取預算經費中那麼希望明年開始就可以來進行"},{"start":2369.15,"end":2375.372,"text":"另外關於加入106年納入全民健保之後醫療費用的問題請大家參閱矯正機關的立場一定會全力協助各醫療院所來解決這個問題"},{"start":2386.455,"end":2399.984,"text":"另外很重要的是目前我們也加入心理、社工等等的專輔人力也像行政院請徵的這一些的經費我們會積極的改善我們在監所內處遇的方向盡量朝向個別化處遇跟精進協助輔導受刑人未來復歸社會的方向來進行另外我們也會加強的來尋找作業的協力廠商"},{"start":2416.975,"end":2431.464,"text":"這個跟上社會的腳步持續追求好這個美和好優良的作業廠商創造對受請人有利的復歸環境以促使受請人該回向上順利復歸社會以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝那現在我們來"},{"start":2444.295,"end":2460.46,"text":"其餘的 剛剛黃次長報告完了啦其他的我看今天就其他人就不用再做過多的發言法務部系統嘛 其餘的書面報告機關還有沒有口頭補充時事次長 你覺得怎麼樣 還是你要起來記得哎呦 漂亮喔 來署長來"},{"start":2478.119,"end":2493.133,"text":"趙偉早 還有各位委員早今天代表衛福部到貴委員會來做專案報告以下我就就矯正器官受用人的醫療照顧簡單的跟各位委員做一個說明"},{"start":2494.294,"end":2515.009,"text":"健保法是在100年的時候修訂二代健保開始將矯正機關的收容人納入在健保的服務對象然後在102年開始全面的推動矯正機關收容人的醫療服務計畫以三年為一期所以今年是114年是第五期的計畫的推動"},{"start":2516.59,"end":2544.466,"text":"那麼從過去近年的實施那麼大概一共有125家醫療院所到54所的矯正機關那麼提供這個服務那麼每月大概是2750次的這個門診的服務涵蓋到西醫各專科牙醫中醫那麼還包含介護門診介護住院等等那近三年大概"},{"start":2545.206,"end":2565.804,"text":"每年的預算都是執行大概在16.54億左右那今年呢我們擴編到19.28億那麼這增加的部分呢是除了原本因為這個高齡化這個醫療服務增加之外那麼我們也對這個提供服務的這個醫療院所用點子保障都是1.1塊錢"},{"start":2567.205,"end":2587.477,"text":"那麼同時還有一些加成跟獎勵的費用 這個是在一般的醫療服務的部分那另外呢 也提供一些公共衛生的計畫包含疾病的篩檢 像C型肝炎 潛伏性的肺結核那麼另外也提供藥引介質的服務 這個是比較偏向公共衛生的服務"},{"start":2588.317,"end":2613.249,"text":"那另外在這個行政督導的部分呢那麼這個已經納入在各地方縣市衛生局他把這個衛生業務的督導考核也列入了過去比較沒有那近年來都已經把矯正機關裡面的衛生業務也納入地方縣市衛生局的督導業務包含感染管制預防保健疾病"},{"start":2613.909,"end":2639.508,"text":"還有食品、藥物管理等等都已經列入了那近期我們持續的在改善的還包含這個放寬一些用藥的規定那我們大概在矯正機關我們一般民眾的平均每年的就醫次數大概已經來到16點多次那矯正機關裡面也有11次所以跟我們一般的民眾的差距並不會太大那麼另外在這個"},{"start":2640.669,"end":2662.249,"text":"因為特殊性的關係遠距醫療我們也開放譬如說像一些皮膚科或精神科專科醫師比較少可以透過遠距的方式來進行治療診斷的我們也開放了所以近年來有這些進行至於安全的問題大家都很關心的我們則是有訂了"},{"start":2665.711,"end":2682.656,"text":"這個醫療服務機構執行這個計畫的一些注意事項裡面包含一些安全應該注意的我們也納入在我們這個辦法裡頭以上簡單的跟各位委員做一個報告說明再請委員會指教各位委員繼續給我們支持 謝謝"},{"start":2685.765,"end":2712.552,"text":"好,謝謝,是署長啦啊,等於是口頭補充報告,看得到那個我覺得報告的人,那個內容很具體啊可不可以提供一下書面給委員會,好不好這個一併讓我們參考一下啦那,司法院剛有要口頭做補充司法院有來嗎?好,那個陳廷長嘛,是不是?有沒有?"},{"start":2715.874,"end":2723.103,"text":"書面是啥 口頭就不補充了看你 好 我是說看你有機會來了想講話就多多講話"},{"start":2727.493,"end":2755.14,"text":"來 那機關代表就已經報告完畢了相關的書面的內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間五分鐘並不再延長上午我們就十點半來截止發言登記第一次來可能我時間"},{"start":2756.5,"end":2785.553,"text":"走給延長一下來請第一位王逸川委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們請次長跟這個署長 謝謝健保 健保"},{"start":2788.161,"end":2804.917,"text":"委員長我先請教健保署這個受刑人的健保費如果是依附在家屬下就是家屬繳那如果什麼都沒有了就欠錢"},{"start":2807.479,"end":2821.907,"text":"我們這個如果真的是繳不出來的我們有一些這個協處機制那麼包含這個愛心專款啦不然如果他能來有能力繳的那麼我們有六類看看他本來他怎麼會有能力繳 要關在裡面"},{"start":2824.441,"end":2844.398,"text":"他自己如果有後續修立的時候,矯正機關有一個補助的機制可以嗎?對啊,可是那個錢應該都不多啊,我的意思是說如果他也沒什麼能力繳嘛,那家人也不讓他依附在下面嘛,他可能出獄的時候就先欠你錢了"},{"start":2846.008,"end":2871.506,"text":"因為現在在收容的時候就會改類變成第四類第二目第四類第二目的話那矯正機關會協助我們有編預算來處理這一塊那法務部會再跟當事人吹角嗎沒有 這個已經改列了改列了所以在這個署長你講那個健保的有一些跟錢有關的會是什麼"},{"start":2873.203,"end":2898.85,"text":"喔 那是服務費 就是說他的健保費沒有問題繳了 那個保費啦但是在接受服務的時候 要給我部分負擔一般的民眾都有部分負擔 阿姨主要是部分負擔的部分繳不出來阿這要幫人修喔 那就沒錢了 你還要修阿這依法就是要用啦 所以我們是希望說喔 能夠...他整個要給醫生說 阿姨不要給我開到那個部分負擔"},{"start":2902.264,"end":2906.689,"text":"那這個費用就變成欠健保囉?這個法務部就不處理了嗎?那個委員我是不是請那個署長 責任署署長來跟我們說明報告一下"},{"start":2926.467,"end":2948.721,"text":"報告委員我們法務部有編列大概14億多就是健保費用那至於是說部分負擔就像民眾一樣可能掛號費是150然後部分負擔是50塊就是交個200塊那他如果是說掛號費或是部分負擔他繳不出來"},{"start":2949.702,"end":2959.939,"text":"其實這個是小額的他如果是弱勢團體其實我們有相關的相關的弱勢團體的補助一般民眾"},{"start":2963.216,"end":2983.621,"text":"經濟困難的我們會有補助公益金也好或是醫院也有一些社會福利金但是我們還可以協助他向健保申請分期繳納或是申請貸款如果他欠的比較多的話"},{"start":2984.781,"end":3000.786,"text":"提這個的目的啊,是有些這個受刑人嘛,他就要改過自新啊嘛,啊怪基因之後他就要出了嘛,啊出也舉目無親嘛,妻離子善啦嘛,啊他也沒收入都沒有啊,結果他走出那個監獄的時候,他就欠人家錢啊,他現在欠的是政府啊,我的意思是這樣,有可能嘛齁"},{"start":3007.312,"end":3029.48,"text":"他出獄之後我們就有這個協處方案在我們各分區他都有一些這個經濟弱勢者困難的這個協助分期付款或補助都有好那這個兩位署長請回好謝謝市長請問一下這個受刑人在監獄裡頭可以接受大學教育嗎"},{"start":3030.485,"end":3040.517,"text":"有 我們今天報告有提到接受大學教育就是空中大學那科系自己選對不對那請問這些人怎麼交報告"},{"start":3043.069,"end":3063.32,"text":"這個細節的部分我們是不是還是請署長這邊來跟我們說一下 不好意思就是說它一來 客人也不可以用網路嘛如果老師想教 老師說要教報告 他要怎麼用是 報告委員 像這種參加空大的他本身可能一般來講 那個學習的期間會延長"},{"start":3064.961,"end":3086.047,"text":"所以他們也是按照空大相關要提的報告 他們還是會來提只是他可能寫的學分也好 或是他能夠有的時間我知道 可是因為他寫報告他不能上網啊他也可以用其他的方式啦 當然是不能上網他沒有其他方式 監獄裡面什麼都沒有 他沒有搞報告"},{"start":3088.001,"end":3112.01,"text":"我們相關的他寫的那個專業歌目比如說相關的參考資料他也是可以取得到的啊不一定是要用網路網路所以他們就是相關的資料取得之後他可以提交書面這是沒有問題的我知道啦那這個來來次長這署長這樣講你看現在大學生啊寫報告沒上網是要怎麼寫"},{"start":3118.4,"end":3124.042,"text":"就直接只看老師給的教科書跟講義這樣就能夠寫期末報告這很難吧"},{"start":3129.473,"end":3150.357,"text":"因為上網涉及到很多監獄管理的問題所以可能也未必適合說因為還有在就學就全面來開放所以這個部分可能我們再研議看看就是說這個接受大學教育因為他不是只有背書或者是只有翻課本"},{"start":3151.057,"end":3175.995,"text":"那如果他這個老師空大老師上課的方式希望學生交報告那顯然給他的這個參考資料啊就要更完整啊不然他英文就是老師一本書交講義然後隔著螢幕聽老師上課然後最後他就能夠交出報告這個對一般大學生來說啊這個聽起來是不可思議"},{"start":3176.929,"end":3201.207,"text":"是 我們再請蔣介石來研議就是說專門對於有這個上進學習的需求的部分看怎麼樣來處理就是來協助他們啦來協助他們報告委員 我們空大有兩種一種是協分班一種是協製班就是他可以拿到協試那一般協分班他"},{"start":3202.108,"end":3217.717,"text":"也比較簡單他就相關的資料搜尋好寫書面報告之後他就提交給我知道啦他就沒辦法搜尋他協志班因為他可能還有其他的活動作業所以他可能會比一般民眾"},{"start":3218.678,"end":3238.847,"text":"他的演習時間要拉長他們都很樂意可以拿到在執行又可以拿到學位他們也很樂意會用工具去收集最後一個是請教一下我們的受刑人如果有身心障礙你們這個處遇機制裡頭有一個分數叫做作業"},{"start":3240.339,"end":3253.213,"text":"他可能要出來做一些東西嘛那他這個如果身心障礙這家都沒辦法那這個分數他怎麼得報告委員我們有所謂的和還儲益"},{"start":3254.724,"end":3276.524,"text":"對於那種比較嚴重一點的我們會給他一個優待在作業方面因為他事實上沒有達到沒有辦法達到那麼高的效率但是我們基於人權的考量會有所謂的合環處理各機關會把這些相關適合合環處理的報到我們署裡面我們署裡面會來核准"},{"start":3277.643,"end":3297.069,"text":"所以這個他的作業分數的計算可能就跟一般的壽星人不一樣會打八折他可以打折啦可以打八折責任分數責任分數就變少嘛會變少所以他得到的分數扣過去就分數會比較高一點嘛"},{"start":3298.57,"end":3315.441,"text":"那剛剛這個次長報告的時候有提到啊什麼收音機啦我請教一下我們現在的受刑人在裡頭啊到底可不可以看電視台啊這個應該細節給他講那應該我就據我的了解是有好那可不可以看爭論節目啊"},{"start":3318.217,"end":3341.132,"text":"包括那個委員如果有一些有所謂的進見的方面我們會參考法官進見的內容如果他有說政論節目不行或是跟他相關有關的消息不行我們那個是不會給他看那個台的一般是可以一般是可以那就是幾台可以看幾台"},{"start":3343.055,"end":3352.632,"text":"這個幾台可能就不一定吧每個地區的台數不一樣所以我們可以看幾點"},{"start":3354.397,"end":3373.022,"text":"一般我們沿著上這種是大概九點就熄燈但是在六日可能會延長一個小時到十點才熄燈但是前提是不能開大聲音響有的是聽耳機不要吵到別人那他九點以後繼續看也不會有事啊"},{"start":3374.164,"end":3397.257,"text":"主管會去糾正他早點睡覺生火作息主管會去糾正他但是假日他可以延長一點所以大部分都只有那個進鑒的進鑒的話就是在這一方面會管制會管制 進鑒會管制那其他的就是儲育的這個分手有夠那就會讓他看"},{"start":3398.834,"end":3419.515,"text":"對我們的階級處理現在都比較朝向人道化剛剛提到那個電視嘛電視原來是4級就可以但是收音機要3級我們在113年已經函試了這個因為這個之前是35年訂定那時候沒有電視那時候只有留聲機"},{"start":3420.536,"end":3431.418,"text":"所以留生機它變成是三級可以持有留生機那這些相關的機制你們再加速來處理好不好你們不是說你們要檢討嘛對不對好那謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王逸川委員那剛剛義事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在我們先確定義事錄請問各位上次會議義事錄有錯誤跟遺漏"},{"start":3451.431,"end":3457.396,"text":"沒有的話 沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話 我們議事錄就確定我們接下來請黃國昌委員發言謝謝召委 麻煩有請法務部次長 矯正署署長請黃次長 周署長"},{"start":3475.289,"end":3500.244,"text":"兩位好 次長接下來的問題如果你不熟的話沒有關係請署長代打先不用先得到我的許可之前法務部說智慧安全監所好萊塢大片將成真搞大內宣非常的會我也希望智慧監所能夠真的落實能夠實現總是一個願景"},{"start":3504.926,"end":3528.587,"text":"我們的八德外域間啊花了納稅人將近29億元29億啊有一個興建統包的工程案我之前署長應該還記得啊我已經問過這件事了我們本來竣工的日期第一階段2022年3月2號"},{"start":3531.377,"end":3554.932,"text":"第二階段2022年11月9號現在是2025年啊到今天為止竣工了沒有請教報告委員現在我們第一階段是竣工第二階段還沒竣工但是我們預定我們希望在年底前可以2022年11月9號2022年11月9號"},{"start":3559.076,"end":3581.071,"text":"要竣工搞到現在2025年沒有竣工我上一次問你的時候你還記不記得你告訴我什麼時候要竣工還記不記得我們在這邊曾經有過的質詢你還記不記得忘記了那時候我們是希望說在上半年啦上半年就是六月份的時候來來來"},{"start":3583.53,"end":3589.915,"text":"你那時候跟我講什麼你那時候跟我講說2024年年底要完成了我有記錯嗎2024年那因為他有一些經營權的爭議那是廠商的問題嘛提和解關我們什麼事"},{"start":3602.847,"end":3630.235,"text":"那是廠商的問題嘛不管廠商是A經營 B經營 C經營 D經營跟政府之間簽的契約你敢得標你就要履約嘛搞到現在喔搞到現在喔我進一步看啊2025年上半年你去年跟我講年底要完成那部長今年"},{"start":3631.644,"end":3656.5,"text":"提給社會法治委員會的報告說上半年要完成上半年有完成嗎現在應該是已經要下半年了吧我們就是巴德盡量努力來完成我們來看一下你們怎麼樣要努力啦小戰署發函給巴德外議監說不要再延期了啦這是你們發的函嗎是"},{"start":3661.181,"end":3678.652,"text":"什麼時候 七月中要竣工 做得到嗎現在應該是希望說不要希望啦 做不做得到就給一個乾脆的答案現在要到年底喔年底完成 繼續做就對了你們矯正署自己都退縮了喔"},{"start":3679.483,"end":3699.367,"text":"你不是發函給巴德外一間7月15號要完成並不是退縮 現在是第六次他們有提行政案工程會來做和解所謂的仲裁那跟他去不去 跟他有什麼關係因為有一些有涉及到所謂驗收的問題來 我們來看我們來看驗收的問題啊花了納稅的29億啊2022年"},{"start":3707.884,"end":3731.355,"text":"就應該要完工了我的法務部現在是搞大內宣橫匯啊那個媒體怎麼會出這種報導我看了我都覺得很驚訝你要搞大內宣沒有關係啊你要作秀擺拍也沒有關係啊事情要做到嘛事情沒做到還搞大內宣作秀擺拍好萊塢大片納稅人看了會淌血啊29億耶"},{"start":3737.247,"end":3751.61,"text":"不是29萬欸29億欸29億給你們預算搞成這個樣子喔來 搞成什麼樣子我們接下來來看啊2025年6月2號審計部查核意見法務部有沒有收到有收到了不僅法務部收到啊我掌握的東西連行政院秘書長都收到了查核意見講什麼"},{"start":3766.783,"end":3771.747,"text":"該間分別於112年1到3月辦理初驗112年是2023年早就過了應該竣工的期間驗收不合格項目多達2279項2279項不是2項不是22項是2279項最關鍵的是什麼到今年3月底"},{"start":3795.509,"end":3820.201,"text":"部分驗收日已耗損一年八個月餘還有部分缺失21項初驗缺失9項還有30個缺失沒有完成改善重點是下面根本沒有辦法發揮智慧監獄的功能這是我們審計部說的法務部接到審計部這樣子的一個審計報告做了什麼檢討"},{"start":3824.764,"end":3832.335,"text":"做了什麼究責來請法務部次長還是收到這個文了以後看一看丟到旁邊反正審計部來歸審計部來言者尊尊聽者渺渺"},{"start":3836.916,"end":3865.511,"text":"好委員 陳儒一幕上所顯示的這個驗收的過程就是我們去找出他的不合格項目然後逐項要求廠商依照合約旅行來改善所以從112年的2000多項到114年的3月底那個是第一階段的工程已經只剩下30項那當然有缺失尚會改善依照合約精神我們都會督促矯正署來督促依照合約精神"},{"start":3866.191,"end":3891.656,"text":"他得外意見來要求廠商你依照合約精神可以做什麼就是要求他要把這些缺失改善完才可以完成這個驗手造成的延遲造成國家的損失誰要負責這個部分因為廠商也有提這個工程會的調解所以我們也在跟他這兩碼子是嘛那是廠商的救濟嘛現在我的問題是站在法務部的立場該做什麼可以做什麼"},{"start":3892.236,"end":3918.451,"text":"對我們因為跟他是這個合約關係所以我們也是依照合約進程要求依照合約可以做什麼不要講空的啦現在階段就是還在調解調解如果不成的話未來可能會延誼或是否進行訴訟延誼進行訴訟對阿你要跟他要求什麼你的訴訟標的訴之聲明是什麼就是如果契約不履行的話依照合約可能有違約金可能有違約金市長這個案子你有掌握嗎"},{"start":3919.41,"end":3943.436,"text":"我有初步掌握我看你很不熟我為什麼說你很不熟我接下來帶你看你為什麼剛講的全部都是空的在同一份審計報告裡面全部都點出來了來我們往下看三道門人臉辨識系統的缺失改善完了沒有這上次喔我去巴德外醫間我自己去拍了照"},{"start":3944.755,"end":3955.968,"text":"那個時候你們跟我說要花一點時間改善三道門很重要嘛你防止脫逃三道門不能同時開嘛三道門的缺失現在改善完成沒有"},{"start":3957.359,"end":3978.271,"text":"報告委員他們有送我們這邊但是我們要以比較高標準的比較高標準不用高標準比例比較多正常可以正常可以發揮功能可以嗎所以我們現在還沒有給他驗收通過因為我們要換言之啦這個缺失還沒有改善完嘛對不對整條問題回答就好了嘛"},{"start":3978.951,"end":4004.188,"text":"他有送上來讓我們覺得說要用高頻率穩定的狀況下沒問題我們才會認說通過所以缺失還沒有改善完成對不對是不是現在還沒有回訂通過沒有改善完成就沒有改善完成嘛這我去年的質詢內容啊我已經一而再再而三提醒法務部啊我開始追的事情我一定會一路追下去啊29億啊"},{"start":4006.741,"end":4012.129,"text":"我再提醒一次啊 29億啊千世紀缺失改善完了嗎這也是我去年問的"},{"start":4022.477,"end":4040.034,"text":"監視器的部分是算弱電部分的部分我們有要求 但是廠商他有進度 但是進度不如理想沒關係嘛 就繼續拖嘛為什麼廠商敢擺爛為什麼超過合約的期限這麼久"},{"start":4044.534,"end":4070.899,"text":"我繼續給你拖嘛反正呢我們的法務部我們的矯正署遇到這樣的問題有缺失啊來改善有缺失啊來改善我繼續拖繼續混今天如果遲延一個月我用這麼嚴厲的態度啊來質問法務部可能是我不夠厚道我再提醒一次啊2022年就要竣工現在是2025年"},{"start":4072.369,"end":4083.874,"text":"你們每一次跟立法院講的提到立法院的報告是一而再再而三跳票為什麼這個廠商敢這麼皮啊來因為損害賠償以契約價金總額20%為上限超過20啦現在早就超過20啦超過20你能拿我怎麼樣你拿我根本沒皮條啊"},{"start":4104.008,"end":4130.113,"text":"我繼續辭言下去還是百分之二十啊連審計部都看不下去了啊審計部怎麼講 我唸給你聽啊該監 就講得八德外一監明明知道契約所定 辭言履約罰則應記 記罰上限以上是實質約束管制的效果卻沒有等於主管機關的職責積極採取適當作為"},{"start":4135.302,"end":4160.724,"text":"這是審計部的意見這個意見看過沒有委員這個你沒有換紅線的部分他有說因為我們考量到是巴德外意見的考量是辦理解約並重新發包有關工程結算及雜標作業時間可能須一年以上作業時間這是Part 2的問題嗎對不是這個是巴德外意見為什麼沒有解約來做但是我們先從一個部分一個部分來嘛審計部說"},{"start":4162.881,"end":4164.064,"text":"你們沒有採取積極"},{"start":4166.792,"end":4193.741,"text":"適當的作為審計部講的有沒有道理他的所謂的積極作為就是要我們解約嘛因為這一個所謂20%上限指的是食鹽的部分嘛如果他最後是工程項目沒有達到沒有完成驗收在那個部分就不是受這個20%上限所以對於審計部對你們的指責法務部不是很滿意就對了我們是認為說有不同的考量好沒關係我們再看再往下看法務部跟審計部啊有哪些不一樣的考量"},{"start":4195.051,"end":4207.471,"text":"巴德外意見推動企業進駐要不要依照政府採購法辦理要還是不要法務部的意見是什麼需要依照政府採購法"},{"start":4209.12,"end":4234.024,"text":"這個委員我想你調查過這個資料是所以呢這個巴德外一間是依照這個公有財運所的相關規定是來交由市政府所以要不要適用政府採購法這個法令的體系是不一樣的所以要不要適用政府採購法他走那一邊是不適用政府採購法不適用政府採購法所以政府採購法第99條的規定就在規定BOT嘛"},{"start":4239.858,"end":4258.143,"text":"除其他法律令有規定者適用本法之規定啊這不只BOT對 你講得非常的好我們再往下看 審計部怎麼講該適用政府採購法 沒有適用政府採購法辦理過程違法審計部講的話很重喔"},{"start":4259.195,"end":4271.267,"text":"他說工程會函釋本案應該是用政府採購法第99條規定辦理過程險欠合法險欠合法就是不合法啦"},{"start":4272.688,"end":4296.315,"text":"工程會都函釋給你們了結果該監對於前刊的函釋未施檢討改善卻自行認定符合政府採購法精神一直沒有為釋法的處理嚴重傷害政府採購的公開透明及公平性審計部的這個意見法務部接不接受"},{"start":4297.657,"end":4313.346,"text":"我想未來我們會盡可能的避免這個方式來做這個案子啊他給你的檢討意見啊說你顯然違法啊告訴你違法還不檢討改進繼續硬凹審計部寫的比較文言文實質的內容就是這樣嘛"},{"start":4314.602,"end":4340.978,"text":"因為我想我也看到這個裡面巴德外一間的主張是說他用所有公用不動產品所以我們應該聽巴德外一間的主張還是聽審計部加上工程會的主張巴德外一間現在是很大是不是審計部講什麼不重要工程會的含釋也不重要巴德外一間愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞是這樣嗎是嗎還是因為巴德外一間合作的對象是誰巴德外一間合作的對象是"},{"start":4345.287,"end":4370.568,"text":"桃園市政府鄭文燦主政的桃園市政府所以法務部不敢處理啊怎麼處理下去當初違法亂搞的就巴德外一間跟鄭文燦亂搞嘛我跟你講這個跟這個沒有關係啦對啊那如果沒有關係的話 主要是適用法規的人的問題 審計部的糾正報告工程會的函式以及名字我們的法務部啊違法還不施檢討改進啊現在法務部願意檢討改進了嗎"},{"start":4374.994,"end":4399.641,"text":"我想我剛剛已經說明得很清楚了我們會來檢討會來檢討要不要追究責任按看檢討的結果檢討需要多久需要多久請署長顧一下檢討不是講空話啦檢討需要多久一個月夠不夠我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員您有提到的巴德外間有沒有盡責這個部分"},{"start":4401.348,"end":4418.104,"text":"不好意思喔 我跟你講剛剛我唸的每一個字都是審計部的報告審計部的報告說辦理過程顯現合法就是不合法嘛接下來又再講誰未失據與檢討改善這也是審計部講的啊這不是我黃國昌講的啊"},{"start":4422.394,"end":4434.562,"text":"審計部白紙黑字寫成這個樣子剛次長也說要檢討我現在的問題很具體檢討要多久 怎麼追究責任需要多久 一個月夠不夠我等你一個月啊 夠不夠"},{"start":4436.636,"end":4444.82,"text":"還是沒有人要檢討所以不敢給時間所以你繼續再堅持嘛人家審計部說你違法嘛你繳證書說 講審計部的嘛現在這個就是問題了嘛現在是什麼 繳證書很大審計部說你違法"},{"start":4461.593,"end":4486.703,"text":"你還不承認 還不處理 剛市長說要檢討嘛那檢討需要多久 我只剩最後這個問題對啦 我們本來就會 需要多久一部的查核意見會做出相應的檢討嘛需要多久這個部分 因為八德外醫監討 還有整個矯正所需要作業期程嘛是 需要多久我們原則上希望 一兩個月內來提出好不好一個月好不好兩個月可以嗎兩個月太久啦 就一個月好不好"},{"start":4487.924,"end":4489.125,"text":"接下來我們請林倩祺委員發言"},{"start":4513.308,"end":4529.807,"text":"好 莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好那請黃次長跟周署長好的"},{"start":4530.58,"end":4545.017,"text":"那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向"},{"start":4547.279,"end":4570.671,"text":"所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品試用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、覆命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%"},{"start":4572.512,"end":4589.688,"text":"所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛才你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下"},{"start":4590.909,"end":4594.672,"text":"在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重"},{"start":4614.645,"end":4626.332,"text":"那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的"},{"start":4632.435,"end":4654.621,"text":"不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著"},{"start":4655.521,"end":4680.708,"text":"所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡然後我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向"},{"start":4681.82,"end":4702.633,"text":"好,那所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟這個衛福部那如果我們以病犯的這個視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的除疫制度是不是有機會讓這個治療來做優先的一個考量那我們回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界"},{"start":4705.795,"end":4731.267,"text":"是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助但是呢現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制戒制都以矯正署的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎"},{"start":4732.387,"end":4759.21,"text":"那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯"},{"start":4760.07,"end":4777.968,"text":"來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔"},{"start":4779.749,"end":4802.441,"text":"機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共狀共併狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個矯正署跟衛福部"},{"start":4804.183,"end":4815.799,"text":"我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新時代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0"},{"start":4818.462,"end":4834.86,"text":"那在這個過程中呢剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元儲育特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩洗素負面接引治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減了"},{"start":4835.541,"end":4852.878,"text":"但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為還起訴畢竟有他的法定要件所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好"},{"start":4853.619,"end":4874.196,"text":"現在用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也聽一下衛福部跟你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要的就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療"},{"start":4874.796,"end":4897.741,"text":"對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業好來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟"},{"start":4898.861,"end":4918.172,"text":"像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後再建議這一端我們有所謂的科學實證的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會"},{"start":4918.752,"end":4941.552,"text":"合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構廚藝慢慢會轉向到社區廚藝包括委員有提到緩起訴確實他的效果會比較好這邊剛才也是在這個內容裡面好跟你們建議是不是"},{"start":4942.193,"end":4950.09,"text":"大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點"},{"start":4958.088,"end":4978.736,"text":"陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是痊癒之後"},{"start":4980.437,"end":5000.456,"text":"出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用的形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理"},{"start":5003.639,"end":5024.139,"text":"我們現在大概分成兩類啦 一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥營治療 這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療 那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務"},{"start":5025.64,"end":5048.577,"text":"所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔 有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個"},{"start":5051.519,"end":5078.737,"text":"我們叫替代療法 減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看那可能可以在效果上更為精進"},{"start":5080.278,"end":5092.482,"text":"接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人"},{"start":5098.904,"end":5121.204,"text":"設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄"},{"start":5122.885,"end":5148.887,"text":"有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢"},{"start":5149.848,"end":5176.19,"text":"報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全"},{"start":5176.51,"end":5200.329,"text":"主場這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理"},{"start":5204.432,"end":5220.928,"text":"因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的"},{"start":5221.488,"end":5234.656,"text":"是 所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括包含壽行人的指引我講比較直接一點啦"},{"start":5250.086,"end":5273.703,"text":"是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理"},{"start":5275.344,"end":5302.347,"text":"這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理"},{"start":5303.508,"end":5324.646,"text":"這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個圍形的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受刑人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好"},{"start":5326.488,"end":5337.642,"text":"他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好 謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的這個生活面"},{"start":5342.728,"end":5358.978,"text":"那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們"},{"start":5359.898,"end":5374.469,"text":"在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上"},{"start":5376.59,"end":5382.174,"text":"有一些不足那最主要就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法"},{"start":5392.52,"end":5418.409,"text":"吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利"},{"start":5419.81,"end":5432.264,"text":"導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答"},{"start":5434.594,"end":5455.573,"text":"有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是"},{"start":5458.536,"end":5483.245,"text":"是有點低嘛 對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎好 各位報告因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會去使用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領"},{"start":5484.165,"end":5490.208,"text":"因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口"},{"start":5507.657,"end":5530.887,"text":"然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理"},{"start":5533.328,"end":5553.177,"text":"那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數"},{"start":5556.738,"end":5572.568,"text":"那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好 這是本席的一個提醒 好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琪 林委員我們接下來請程培宇委員質詢"},{"start":5590.322,"end":5593.292,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請周署長請周署長"},{"start":5600.424,"end":5623.503,"text":"好署長早安署長我還是想繼續跟你談我們之前有研究過的一些題目那雖然吳宗憲找我一直提醒我你要退休但我相信署長你一定會把我們所有委員關心的題目跟後續的署長交接對嗎是謝謝署長我要先談一下在107年的時候當時的法務部長邱太三他做了一個承諾那確實你們後續也都做到了"},{"start":5623.823,"end":5641.673,"text":"他说希望可以在109年的时候达到一人一床监锁零超收这个愿景非常的好我们来往下看我们看你们逐年收容的这个人数啊来看一下从110到11112123确实"},{"start":5642.233,"end":5664.02,"text":"到113確實都沒有超收可是我比較好奇到了114年5月底這個是你們法務部自己的資料統計這個我們還沒有鎖死網站上就看得到到了5月底的時候已經有超額收容的問題我比較好奇這個超額收容是怎麼樣造成的我猜想會不會是因為近年來詐騙案"},{"start":5666.101,"end":5680.057,"text":"很猖獗那各部會積極辦案的結果積極調查的情況下讓收容人數上升因為我們之前看少年犯有很多確實是因為詐欺詐騙我不知道在成人或是其他整個統計上是不是因為這樣"},{"start":5681.528,"end":5695.749,"text":"是報告委員確實是這個詐欺患他上升到第一名來所以有一些人數上我們的突破六萬人我們的核定綜合是60552"},{"start":5698.252,"end":5714.805,"text":"那目前目前應該也是6萬出頭一點點對啦其實只有超收42個人比例也不高可是我認為如果如果真的是我剛推估的你也說確實是因為詐騙案的關係我們的收容人越來越多"},{"start":5715.185,"end":5731.01,"text":"那我認為雖然各部會已經很努力打詐可是壞人比我們更用功比我們更努力他們會努力想出各式各樣的方法詐騙常常我聽到很多案例我都覺得瞠目結舌非常可怕那我們如何看待這個情況跟後續你們有沒有什麼因應的方案"},{"start":5732.489,"end":5750.247,"text":"對於那個詐騙集團他普遍有不勞而獲的心態所以原則上我們會加強他的技能訓練還有相關的法治先導那可是 對不對署長我知道這是裡面教化的部分但是超收這個部分他很有可能節節必高喔 數字"},{"start":5751.997,"end":5769.356,"text":"對於超收的部分我們會看它的超收比例尤其是超收超過兩成以上的我們就會積極辦理移間原則上從北部移到中南部去所以你認為如果全台灣通盤考慮我們目前還有些餘裕空間上"},{"start":5770.362,"end":5787.676,"text":"我們是可以盤點哪個地方它的空間比較多的我們就把它移遷到那個地方去但是因為這個表格法務部的這個表格是針對所有的收容機構矯正機構的收容人數我想要拜託我們有沒有機會請你們幫我們提供一個統計數字是個別監所因為剛剛署長您自己提到可以北中南做調整"},{"start":5798.544,"end":5821.201,"text":"所以我也就很好奇北中南東現在所有矯正機關各自的收容人數單獨個別的統計數字不用現在給我有機會可以幫我們統計嗎我們已經有這個比如說哪個機關超收我們會有延遷表示比如說超過兩成的有幾所我們都有依照這個來參考然後辦理一間的作業"},{"start":5821.581,"end":5843.502,"text":"那這個數字再拜託你們給我們提供辦公室會後再提供給我們好謝謝那如果超收我們其實就會比較擔心之前也跟署長討論過下一張關於人力的部分其實也是希望幫所有願意進到矯正機構工作的專業員工跟您討論喔就是在人數比的部分我上次還沒有跟您討論完我想跟您請教"},{"start":5844.202,"end":5869.864,"text":"所謂教化人力上次你們給我們的數字是1比138那介護人力是1比11新社跟醫事都各自其實看起來那個比例上會讓人感到有點擔心會不會所有這些矯正機關的工作人員專業人力工作負擔過重我不是很確定所以我想要請問一下所謂教化人力在你們的定義當中它的工作內容工作樣態大概有哪些"},{"start":5871.179,"end":5887.672,"text":"報告委員 教化人力 主要是教委師或一些輔導員 他們主要是辦理假釋的業務或劣勁處理分數的業務那當然從這個表看起來 我們的教化人力確實負擔蠻重的 所以我們"},{"start":5889.034,"end":5913.175,"text":"針對我們的雄雄累進主義在民國35年訂定有點老舊不合時宜的我們會把它作為簡化考核制度因為現行的民國幾年則分數不同打的分數每個月進幾哩都不一樣非常的繁瑣我們會把它作為簡化考核制度之後讓每個教委是在"},{"start":5913.775,"end":5931.922,"text":"假釋辦理或是累進廚藝的辦理方面會比較有效率而且減輕他的負擔所以這個我們正在努力正在努力意思就是說你們已經在研議簡化考核的事情那現在的進度你們可不可以給我們知道"},{"start":5932.602,"end":5944.771,"text":"本則上有再報法務部第三次報法務部因為我們會會相關的私處他們都有一些意見再回來我們再針對這個意見再來做微調好 那簡化這個流程之後是不是會讓這個人數比看起來人數比會降低嗎 應該不會我們只是調整他們的工作內容"},{"start":5954.597,"end":5981.668,"text":"但工作比還會是人數比還會是這樣那我比較好奇第一線的教化人員有讓你們知道說其實假設未來就算簡化其實工作量還是會有點太超過還是其實我不是很確定簡化之後包括累進主義假釋就單純化了所以對他可能原來要加班的加班的時數會就降低了是有實際的幫助"},{"start":5982.588,"end":6007.542,"text":"所以我們簡化的目標就是希望讓他們的工作loading不要太重然後不要每個人都過度的加班那這個簡化的過程當中也要拜託要積極聆聽第一線工作同仁的聲音尤其是您剛剛說這些在現場第一線的教化人力他們的需求跟他們的困境他們的狀況我認為既然已經有在研議中拜託你們要聽他們的聲音是 這個我們都有聽起我們就並沒有收集他們的意見所屬機關的意見在做處理的"},{"start":6011.164,"end":6033.751,"text":"好 那上個禮拜還跟您討論到關於新社跟醫事人力喔這個部分當然是指針對受刑人的部分但是因為這個數字是整體所有的矯正機構我其實還蠻好奇那各個的矯正機構包含少角校 少官所或者是其他的矯正機構 個別的人力統計數字這個你們有現行的統計數字嗎可以會後提供給我們辦公室嗎這個已經有了好 個別的 我說的是個別"},{"start":6040.313,"end":6066.462,"text":"新社人力的跟醫事人力我們有分開來好 那在會後再提供給我們會後可以提供好 沒問題那我們來看一下剛剛指的是受刑人的部分我們現在來看一下監所員工的協助方案因為我們都希望所有的積極的行政作為都是希望減輕現場工作人員的負擔那相關的新聞我就不再贅述我相信署長你一定知道我上一次也問過你心理協助方案但時間有限"},{"start":6067.242,"end":6074.407,"text":"我現在想要積極跟您討論到底我們現在積極協助監索員工的協助方案內容大概有哪些"},{"start":6075.495,"end":6101.866,"text":"所謂的員工協助方案我們員工協助方案是只要各機關的人事室在負責包括他有情緒或有被霸凌的都可以提出來那至於這個案件我們也有我們不要講個案我希望知道的是所有這些歸屬於矯正署底下的所有在監索員工裡面他們的協助方案大概的樣態有哪些"},{"start":6102.086,"end":6119.254,"text":"大概樣態比如說他有情緒障礙那我們人事室他願意把他的苦惱煩惱講出來那我們會看情況有必要諮商的我們會請心理師或是社工人來協助我們有心社人"},{"start":6119.414,"end":6129.177,"text":"有一套現行的機器那細節可以再提供給我們但我很好奇你們有沒有近年來的統計數字或者是他們提出來的協助方案內容因為我認為不會只有情緒的問題可能還有在職場現場裡面跟長官溝通的問題跟同仁溝通的問題工作量過多的問題超時加班的問題其實員工協助方案可以是全方面的"},{"start":6142.082,"end":6171.364,"text":"那當然我知道必須要把這個機制引入監索員工協助方案確實還需要一些時間他也需要跟外面的專業機構對話甚至可能還需要衛福部的協助那具體的內容可不可以會後再提供給我們我指的是針對員工的協助員工協助方案的數據我這邊的數據是沒有看到啦那我們會後再看看有沒有這些數據我們可以再跟你們討論到底我們想要促進哪些事情"},{"start":6171.964,"end":6194.82,"text":"協助監所員工好不好是好謝謝署長最後一個我們去考察了城鎮我們看到那個孩子們的住宿的設防狀況真的不是太好可是我們也看到城鎮他們有在調整室內空間有相關預算跟計劃在進行不過我們其實還是普遍擔心不管是城鎮還是後續其他我們還沒有去看的兩所矯正學校"},{"start":6195.64,"end":6224.516,"text":"其實孩子們的住宿品質包含所有監所的住宿品質我認為這件事情有機會應該要積極的提升但是關於各個監所住宿品質狀況我們今天就沒有辦法細說但是後續我們辦公室希望可以跟矯正署做更多的討論好不好尤其是我們剛剛都發現了嘛因為詐騙案的事情不管是成人監所或者是矯正學校啊 少管所他們的收容人數都越來越高我覺得這個困境我們一起來面對"},{"start":6225.236,"end":6250.529,"text":"好的謝謝委員好最後來下一張這個課程其實我上次跟您討論過了就是我們其實還是覺得這個課程有沒有真的可以發揮協助學生復歸社會的可能性那當然上次你已經講了有一些因為學生來來去去你們必須要routine的進行這些事情但我們真的還是認為有討論的空間我就直白的說例如說弟子規這個在一般的學校"},{"start":6253.24,"end":6274.002,"text":"很多家長跟很多老師就已經認為單獨的讓學生背誦弟子規甚至讓他們擔非常枯燥的抄寫沒有真的可以對人的品性產生矯正的可能性那可能這些孩子在學校裡面搞不好也受過這種折磨啊我們現在讓他們在教校裡面還要做這個事情嗎我是先有一個問號"},{"start":6275.023,"end":6301.682,"text":"那當然除非你們設計的課程內容或者是你們的方法特別有經過特別教學設計課程設計活動方案真的可以促進他們去靠近這個東西否則我們整體課程看起來還是會有點擔心啦那我的意思是提醒說光是在課程的部分我們就可以做更多好的設計當然我知道需要專業人力的協助需要國教組的協助我們一起往這裡努力我先把問題提出來再次的提出來好不好"},{"start":6302.102,"end":6325.768,"text":"好的 謝謝委員好 謝謝署長所以我大概今天幾個重點一個是人力的部分再來是員工協助的部分再來是腳效的住宿空間那這些相關資料不管是您剛剛說要提供給我們的我們都會再整理發公文給你們或者是後續有機會在兩個月內提供給我們嗎可以 可以 兩個月內那就這樣 這麼多議題我們一起努力好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":6328.736,"end":6354.169,"text":"好 謝謝陳培委員這個是你看我們司法法制委員會尤其我在當召委一直排這麼多的考察其實是用心良苦因為司法法制委員會裡面這個過度的政治攻防那所以呢真正要去發揮監督真的要實地去看你看每一次的一個議題出來也都是督促我們行政部門可以啊 裡面有一些就是說"},{"start":6355.47,"end":6369.963,"text":"叫你們這樣 禮拜年畢竟推你們一把來做一個督促的話 這個是好事啦這個是 行政部門這個地方也希望能夠加把勁陳培宇委員走了 我要志強等一等喔陳培宇委員 再來換我你好 我們現在請最帥的羅志強委員來質詢我給你扭一扭 待會對你比較好 不好意思"},{"start":6384.291,"end":6393.737,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請次長跟署長請黃次長跟兩位署長 哪一位那個矯正署 周署長委員好次長還有署長我們今天會議主題是要談現行預證跟受刑人處遇機制的制度檢討我覺得我們的主席莊昭偉非常的"},{"start":6412.572,"end":6440.401,"text":"關心這個題目所以他也安排很多的考察對預證的部分所以在這邊我們大家深入來討論怎麼去改善我們現在的預證的問題那也不要負了我們召委的一起苦心一起加油那首先我想請教一下次長跟署長一個很簡單的問題尤其我們署長應該要知道我們現在監所到底收了多少人那設計容量是多少超收了百分之多少哪一間最誇張"},{"start":6441.985,"end":6442.613,"text":"抄手最多"},{"start":6443.758,"end":6465.875,"text":"報告委員我們核定收容額是60552那目前因為可能詐騙犯他上升了我們大概就突破了6萬人大概超收大概是0.48在之前的我們現在以最新的622我們是60945那超收最高是哪個監獄"},{"start":6472.62,"end":6493.128,"text":"超收最高的這個會變動那以往像桃園監獄是超收嚴重的所以他每個月都要五車的移監因為以往是桃園監獄是跟高雄二監那目前像桃園女子監獄台北看守所台北監獄都有超收的情況"},{"start":6494.388,"end":6519.089,"text":"我看到數字是最嚴重的就是桃園女子監獄超收率高達46%其實算是非常嚴重的超收我想請教一下我們署長就是按照法規每個人需要多少的空間我們受刑人法規上收容標準的空間是多少知道嗎空間嗎對 空間"},{"start":6522.08,"end":6550.529,"text":"這個應該是沒有特別規定什麼空間但是每一個機關它的空間有它的歷史的嚴格像桃園監獄它是三合一附設看守所或少年公務所那以往它是桃園地驗的附設看守所的時候它只收300多350左右那350左右因為刑事政策的變間它又成立監獄看守所 少管所它最高收到"},{"start":6551.149,"end":6568.981,"text":"大概2000人但是他的合定收容額是1275人所以他大概都超收5成目前是有在降下來大概是兩三成我看到的那個標準是那個收容標準是每人0.7瓶那我不知道這個標準是不是剛剛剛剛署長是說實際上是沒有標準"},{"start":6573.226,"end":6593.052,"text":"那再確認一下好不好因為我看到標準是這個還是有幕僚可以確認一下我們以前是0.7坪扣除這些廁所那個盥洗之外但是所謂的司法改革的時候有建議說要人道化希望能夠比如說"},{"start":6593.812,"end":6615.879,"text":"至少要超過幾坪一坪或是多少他有做一些建議我們會朝這個方面來努力包括有一些是新建有一些是擴建像八德彰化看守所如果能夠啟用那應該對於北部中部的超收有很大的幫助其實蘇長你剛剛講的就是我要講的重點"},{"start":6617.406,"end":6628.844,"text":"就以前的標準0.7坪其實都做不到啦那現在新的標準建議是希望能夠更有人道的空間那就還差一大步不知道次長是不是覺得這個努力的空間要怎麼辦"},{"start":6630.471,"end":6656.777,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前我們現在興建還沒有完全完成的有彰化跟八德剛剛書長有講我們目前還有台北看守所跟台北女子看守所會因為新北的園區也會啟動興建改建的工程所以我們會努力來爭取像剛剛特別提到的桃園女子監獄"},{"start":6657.817,"end":6682.709,"text":"我們也會來爭取增建的計畫也排到我們部裡面的前十來爭取像行政院來爭取中長城的計畫所以說我們因為硬體很多都是接收過去沿用的建築物來說所以它的設防比較難如果不改建 新建的話很難改善那我們會視國家財政情況跟我們的規劃一步一步往前走謝謝委員"},{"start":6683.989,"end":6702.53,"text":"實際上就是要麻煩法務部跟矯正署都再加把勁因為現在其實很多地方坦白講空間真的是不夠那收容有些根本是硬塞進去那也傳出說床位不夠就碎地板的這些種種情形那這其實已經不是矯正根本就是虐待所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":6704.051,"end":6723.562,"text":"應該我覺得相關單位還是要去檢討改正的地方那麼事實上超收也不只是睡覺級的這個這麼簡單的問題而已啦那收容人之間就會產生很多的摩擦人就是你知道我們人一般是會有一個空間的一個需要的空間感嘛那如果這空間感被破壞的話摩擦跟"},{"start":6724.383,"end":6740.503,"text":"衝突就會變多像一些自殘暴力事件也會上升那對介護員來說壓力也會變大所以如果說現在我們看到這樣的環境那更不要講還要做什麼的戒癮 心理輔導或是一些毒飲飯的一些問題就變得是更"},{"start":6742.686,"end":6763.596,"text":"實際上就更惡化了 所以其實監所的空間它連動的東西我覺得是很多的不是單單只是空間級而已 它連動甚至很多的寓所的管理來自於說今天真正矯正的一些作為的進行 所以這一點剛剛次長有提很多的一些就是監獄的一些計畫 希望能夠把步調加快一點"},{"start":6764.548,"end":6790.803,"text":"好 謝委員我們會全力向行政院來爭取好 那另外齁 這個次長我也要說齁像這個最近齁就發生過一些很多的一些包括性侵啊性騷啊的一些問題啊就在這擁擠空間裡面這已經快要不是個案幾乎是體系問題我想請問一下次長你知道去年齁2024年齁監索性侵性騷擾案件數是多少那相較於過去有提高嗎"},{"start":6793.584,"end":6797.154,"text":"這個數據我可能要請這個調查署這邊來查一下是喔 那署長這邊有掌握嗎"},{"start":6804.186,"end":6827.225,"text":"目前手上的數據沒有我這邊有幫你查啦我們就這個數據來討論一下有什麼要補充再回後補充給我2024年總共是136件它是創六年的新高也是在過去十年裡的第二高就去年是六年的新高那對比2022年的73件三年之間增加是1.86倍所以"},{"start":6830.127,"end":6843.674,"text":"嚴格來講其實這個相關的問題是在變得比較相對嚴重的趨勢那我們現在請問一下我們的監所現在有沒有一個全面有效的性侵性騷擾事件的通報SOP"},{"start":6845.715,"end":6864.766,"text":"還是有很多單追黑數跟委員報告因為我上任大概一年多去年下半年來到法務部我們的通報系統事實上都非常的健全就是性侵害防治三法新潮這些防治法等等的我們都有依照相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":6866.067,"end":6892.403,"text":"那我想也是因為這個MeToo運動之後大家的權利意識提高我們到現在有時候都還會接到針對過去發生的事情不一定是現在發生他現在來提出申訴跟檢舉那我們都會依照相關的規定當然要對檢舉人來做保密來保護他然後我們也會做客觀的調查機制然後都會成立或不成立的判定之後都有相關的懲處跟處置的規定這樣子"},{"start":6894.775,"end":6910.562,"text":"好非常謝謝次長我還是要提醒一下其實監鎖狀況跟一般社會情況其實坦白講狀況可能會更嚴峻一點是因為壓力比較大對那裡面的話壓力也大那被害人可能會不敢講因為在那個地方基本上他可能會跑不掉"},{"start":6911.141,"end":6937.764,"text":"然後也怕被報復所以有時候像在監獄裡面類似的問題其實往往會被押很多黑素進去所以這個可能是要特別注意就像說2022年高雄監獄就發生男性收容人遭到其他六名男育友集體霸凌跟性侵的案件那這個月月初也看到金週刊也報導收到台東高雄嘉義台北監獄收容人的投訴"},{"start":6939.246,"end":6956.148,"text":"包括管理員的性侵、預方卻沒有把加害人調職、長官放任管理員用暴力的方式教育受刑人、縱容管理員未依規定請假或兼職、拉幫結派、誣陷受刑人等"},{"start":6957.049,"end":6983.098,"text":"那這些問題我想請教一下署長那這種類似的問題像當然目前是媒體介入啦那我不知道我們的現在矯正署還有那個那個預鎖方面所方方面的話現在面對這個問題是怎麼樣去來改進的報告委員針對媒體所謂介入的這些事件我們署裡面都有去調查了解而且也做發布新聞稿做一些回應說明啦"},{"start":6984.258,"end":7000.613,"text":"那另外補充就是我現在手頭上有剛剛委員執行到的性侵跟性騷擾的矯正機關的通報案件大概以今年來講是136件去年113件是136件今年是1到5月統計是54件在以往大概是100件左右"},{"start":7011.503,"end":7035.249,"text":"從105年開始有這些相關統計大概100件左右反正跟您說一下就說136件是10年來次高大概最高一次是大概107年的140件那105年2016年是88件那實際上中間有高高低低但是確實在去年它的數字是相對比較高的所以這個要提醒大家注意一下"},{"start":7035.868,"end":7059.962,"text":"那另外最後還是要講就是說這些獄政的改革其實牽涉到就是包括他所矯正的成效啦那也包括他在獄所內 監獄裡面犯罪的防治的問題那相關的問題其實都要需要大家再加把勁再努力 不然類似像那個週刊報導這種情況 層出不窮其實對也不是我們今天監獄管理之福啦以上 謝謝"},{"start":7068.596,"end":7070.82,"text":"接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員上台質詢"},{"start":7082.96,"end":7097.877,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們服務部黃次長 還有矯正署周署長我們衛生福利部我們石署長 次長我也好"},{"start":7099.078,"end":7117.604,"text":"還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來救教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面"},{"start":7119.205,"end":7135.86,"text":"在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金處理條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標"},{"start":7136.721,"end":7145.611,"text":"是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面"},{"start":7151.818,"end":7176.438,"text":"受刑人那其實他還是我們的國民他只是穿著球衣的一個國民那他在我們監獄裡面生活的基本的一個需求這個也都是我們國家去編列預算來去做一個支付那可是你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些"},{"start":7177.299,"end":7205.424,"text":"就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過 就是說那時時屬長你沒來就是說在地的很多區醫院 剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄那你必須要到跟醫療院所來做服務去看一看之後 壽星人 還是去看一看之後他進去服刑以後 他真的是跟這個 有些跟家庭"},{"start":7206.224,"end":7217.073,"text":"或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好那又進去服刑以後跟家庭 就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊 到最後都欠繳啦 欠錢啦看不起就看不起啦所以通常那個時事署長你知不知道 到醫療院所裡面給這個監獄受刑人這樣欠多少錢"},{"start":7228.962,"end":7249.79,"text":"跟委員報告 那個保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關拉拔啦當然這就是那個部分負擔還有一些醫療費用從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬你說你健保費你看在矯正署 我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了"},{"start":7250.49,"end":7259.038,"text":"那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK 市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊"},{"start":7275.18,"end":7287.165,"text":"醫院無辜啊 你看譬如說 我一直在講台東馬街 我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院 他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所 你說欠了五千萬你問教證署 教證署說這台我的事 那不是我的事啊 我是人換人來 給你照顧 願意給你打扮 給你上便衣 健保衛生 又給你便利選 給你拉馬跟教證署又無關 可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是 人你帶來的啦"},{"start":7302.493,"end":7326.983,"text":"那個健保署的意思就是說 不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都 彼此都沒事醫院 他說我沒辦法繳 繳證書當然他必須要去協助 去幫忙醫院說不然你趕快繳 趕快給他收工 還是說他沒看來除了這些以外 你也不能說繳證書你跳出來 你要幫人 你帶來的 你要去付錢"},{"start":7328.888,"end":7347.631,"text":"你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,各地的便衣公司,你要怎樣,有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於"},{"start":7349.092,"end":7368.278,"text":"人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說"},{"start":7369.538,"end":7380.028,"text":"這個我們都認定 受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付醫療的部分"},{"start":7391.847,"end":7399.774,"text":"社會不給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人不給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家不給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法 次長"},{"start":7408.084,"end":7424.185,"text":"那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個食物量獎的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁應該是剩下四千或三千多萬齁"},{"start":7426.408,"end":7429.931,"text":"我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受請人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療有關係那但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的"},{"start":7442.784,"end":7457.325,"text":"就是其實受選並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分"},{"start":7458.146,"end":7482.525,"text":"再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你再加一加就四千多萬"},{"start":7484.502,"end":7491.508,"text":"但是還會有清償啦是嘛,所以我要告訴他已經沒有了好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啊就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶"},{"start":7507.046,"end":7524.967,"text":"社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的,社會的氛圍是常常是尤其是事件剛發生的時候,這個好可惡喔,你會殺人喔,你會詐欺喔,幹嘛幹嘛,社會是討厭的。社會那個時候的氣氛就是說,吃醋,管好事,好了,起訴了。"},{"start":7527.429,"end":7552.684,"text":"審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個雷勁廚藝的一個條"},{"start":7557.387,"end":7579.729,"text":"這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛 您說的嘛 對不對"},{"start":7583.158,"end":7597.87,"text":"三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%"},{"start":7600.748,"end":7614.72,"text":"犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金和使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦"},{"start":7616.67,"end":7642.256,"text":"那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多的,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔,相關的多少多少?"},{"start":7644.056,"end":7647.179,"text":"我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬"},{"start":7660.032,"end":7678.378,"text":"你是七千多萬 你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的 我當然很清楚你要拿到 你要進階到 譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後 他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣 人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金"},{"start":7683.079,"end":7690.385,"text":"但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月的租金多少?多少你知不知道?給你最低的多少?可以出來做的,我問的,都沒差過一百塊。"},{"start":7700.629,"end":7704.93,"text":"所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦 什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦 有的沒的那差不多都差不多 到最後都修身養性 管得很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說 站在比較高的分所嘛"},{"start":7727.456,"end":7745.735,"text":"當然那個叫結果啦 但是我們整體來看我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一"},{"start":7748.188,"end":7759.88,"text":"這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同"},{"start":7762.563,"end":7791.582,"text":"委員我們勞作機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人事跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動"},{"start":7792.983,"end":7812.168,"text":"剛剛委員提到麵包 烘培 甚至有的是醬油工 那個就很高 那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高 這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目 比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花 那個就少了"},{"start":7814.228,"end":7831.697,"text":"那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題"},{"start":7835.179,"end":7842.024,"text":"所以說你們要去繳什麼會去買 繳就繳到蓮花 或是消磨時間這樣而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面 有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦有一些比如說 我們會找一些比如說 提貸 外銷的 那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的 我們盡量來找這種項目的啦"},{"start":7865.439,"end":7882.149,"text":"跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進處於的級數已經又變更高了啦"},{"start":7884.639,"end":7894.656,"text":"是不是這樣說 一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的 勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育 我看你至少到二級以上啊不然你要怎麼站在那裡"},{"start":7900.951,"end":7928.478,"text":"累進廚藝的集數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係的我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔 我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦你更專業啦我是認為啦 這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他是被我們社會排除之外的國民"},{"start":7931.067,"end":7959.214,"text":"是這樣子嗎 是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官 憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些"},{"start":7960.576,"end":7975.052,"text":"台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說"},{"start":7977.059,"end":8003.116,"text":"從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作"},{"start":8004.537,"end":8028.663,"text":"再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁 如果衝到那個壽星人去看說啊我給你關 關到買啊 我就看這個賣啊我看不去啊 我要去欠銷啊給人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分 基本的一個國民"},{"start":8029.963,"end":8041.047,"text":"我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是 報告委員我可以講 補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看"},{"start":8045.649,"end":8062.159,"text":"他確實是跟冷靜廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘形有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛"},{"start":8062.839,"end":8075.994,"text":"所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經屬於達到幾級沒有 我們是用產型來篩選"},{"start":8082.903,"end":8106.017,"text":"委員那個剛才那個委員所說的因為我們總部今天報告有講我們在這個累進處理制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在今天行法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考"},{"start":8106.957,"end":8122.607,"text":"是啦 因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦 好不好是 我們都會檢討好 謝謝"},{"start":8134.426,"end":8146.634,"text":"謝謝我先做一個會議程序的宣告我們稍後請吳斯亞委員詢答完畢以後我們休息五分鐘我們接下來請沈發慧委員進行詢答"},{"start":8157.905,"end":8162.59,"text":"主席我們請黃次長還有周署長剛才在前面莊委員的質詢最後的時候有提到真的很巧就提到我接下來要談的問題"},{"start":8179.795,"end":8192.144,"text":"那這個就是剛才有提到說我們的這個有關行刑累進處遇條例喔你有提到說我們將來是要廢止的是對那這個基本上齁"},{"start":8193.633,"end":8208.493,"text":"這個行刑累進 今天我們討論的主題就是行刑累進儲遇條例的相關的這些規定現在這些這些累進儲遇的這個機制那其實這個行刑累進儲遇條例除了制度上問題 其實已經"},{"start":8210.834,"end":8237.42,"text":"已經其實丟在放在那裡已經很久沒有都沒有進行修正了我們最後一次修正好像是2006年19年前做了修正以後就丟在那裡丟到然後放在那裡在制度繼續再用但是其實照理講就算在廢止之前也還有很多其實是應該要在廢止之前也要修正不過剛剛市長的意思是不是就是說我們現在就是"},{"start":8238.612,"end":8256.423,"text":"不管他有什麼問題他就放在那裡但是我們未來就是要等他廢止我們行政上可以處理的有一些部分其實不用動到修法用行政上面就可以處理但是還是有一些我們念法律的看了就有點刺眼的地方在第一條本法依照監獄刑刑法第20條"},{"start":8263.155,"end":8285.64,"text":"這個受累金處理者適用本條是規定齁那其實他應該是第18條第二項的這個授權啦齁那他就確實說這個立法他就說第20條如果我們這個法還要繼續用的話這一條我就覺得因為接應刑刑法在109年有大修過對啦有大修過啊但是這個沒有相對的修嘛當時沒有一併處理其實照理講我們現在就應該我如果要拼這個拼這個這個"},{"start":8289.201,"end":8307.492,"text":"這個國會評鑑我就應該要趕快再提一個按修法來這個但是我知道說我們法務部的態度基本上就是想要就是這個就不再修了就是把它等到它廢除廢止之前其他要改要改革的事項能夠用行政手段處理的都用行政規定去處理對不對那這個"},{"start":8310.515,"end":8317.43,"text":"所以我現在就回到說我們這個我們這個儲育機制的這個改革的方向我仔細看你們法務部的這個報告這個"},{"start":8320.99,"end":8347.26,"text":"其實這個有關於這個儲育機制的改革在2017年的私改會其實就有提到2017年私改會在這個這個第五分組裡面有關預證制度的改革其中第二次會議的決議裡面就在第四項就有提到說慎重考慮廢除累進儲育的制度這是他私改會的這個但是我們看這個私改會這樣子的決議其實"},{"start":8349.793,"end":8370.39,"text":"他也不敢說應該要廢除啦他還是說應該慎重考慮那所以這個就是一個為什麼這樣寫齁其實這個累進廚藥的制度齁雖然說在第二次世界大戰之後很多大部分的國家都已經就是盡量的把這個累進廚藥的方式齁改成這個所謂膳食制啦齁這按照個別風險評估下去做齁"},{"start":8373.663,"end":8390.79,"text":"但是我們看到現在有實施這些風險評估機制的國家包括像是美國的德州、加州、加拿大、英國、日本這些國家他們其實都沒有像我們台灣現在這種就是這種超額收容的情況嚴重"},{"start":8392.586,"end":8409.033,"text":"還有有關於這個教化人員跟受刑人比例的懸殊了這部分是我們目前要廢除這個我們想要改革目前儲育機制最大的問題就在於我們目前我們的這個收容超額收容的情況很嚴重"},{"start":8410.444,"end":8429.855,"text":"那我們的這個教化人員跟受刑人比例也非常懸殊甚至缺額我們上個禮拜就討論這個目前缺額的狀況教化人員不足那這個相關的這些社工心理背景的專業人員我們也幾乎都人數都付諸缺乳了所以"},{"start":8430.915,"end":8456.665,"text":"現在所以這也是為什麼私改會那時候說要慎重評估他也不敢做結論說我們應該就要廢止北京廚藝條例這是目前我們這些狀況但是我們也不能說因為這些狀況我們就繼續下去我們也就不改革了那我看這個2017年私改會之後我們這個在我們的報告裡面提到就是說我們也在"},{"start":8458.367,"end":8480.444,"text":"2018年2019年我們也分別委託了中央警察大學委託了中正大學我們有做研究針對這個累進處理條例做研究研究一直到這個2022年我們提出了一個正式的回應再有看是我們2022年 這是民國111年提出了一個深化受刑人個別處遇的實施計畫"},{"start":8481.82,"end":8495.619,"text":"就是說把過去的這個累進儲育我們未來我們在完全廢除累進儲育之前我們要我們先深化個別的儲育是不是這個方向是我們現在有在做對有啦齁那這個"},{"start":8497.18,"end":8522.371,"text":"這個部分就是我接下來要比較關注我們的這個個別儲育的計畫裡面我們把這個儲育方式我們把它有一個叫做個別儲育的三軸計畫這部分是不是請周組長來可能比較清楚就是說我們把這個受刑人在監獄儲育的期間應該受的繳制教育我們把它分成三種"},{"start":8523.511,"end":8551.871,"text":"一種是一般性的 一種是保護性的 一種是治療性的這個就是我按照你們的矯正期刊裡面還有你們的這個個別儲育這個深化的這個計畫的內容裡面找出來的就你們有把它分成三軸的儲育了那這個個別儲育的這個三軸計畫其實我整個看起來它最大的問題還是同樣跟剛才同樣的問題就是我們人力的配置"},{"start":8553.367,"end":8576.796,"text":"還有資源的落差還有風險的這個份額儲蓄能力的這些限制這是我們目前整個利用改革最大的問題這個像資源的落差我們現在這些我想知道說我們現在進行的這些包括社工、心理師、教化人力現在是不是足以支撐這套制度現有的"},{"start":8578.14,"end":8606.142,"text":"我們的新設人力我們近幾年有跟人總來爭取啦那人總也給我們核定從勞務成員變成A用人員那明年我們會提出我們事辦之後的一個成效來再報行政會明年才會提出是不是這本來就是我要問的明年要提出你們的這個成效評估到底在哪裡明年明年初提出這些這個這個"},{"start":8608.705,"end":8624.905,"text":"這個評估包括你這些個別處遇之後的這些人他們的這個回歸社會之後我們要長期追蹤他的災犯率包括針對他復歸社會的適應情形我覺得這個都是應該是我們整個這個個別處遇實施之後的評估成效評估的重要的"},{"start":8625.826,"end":8654.074,"text":"是 我們會綜合評估但是我們是以爭取新設人力為主因為我們的新設人力他不只是做這個所謂的個別處役他也有可能是會做毒品亂的處役性侵家暴處役都會協助這個部分就是我接下來大概會跟你比較深入的討論有關於治療性處役的部分尤其是毒品的部分"},{"start":8655.194,"end":8667.53,"text":"但是我在看到你們有實施一個事辦一個我個人認為非常好那我也想知道它的成效跟你們推廣計畫就是我目前齁在這個台南第二監獄有事辦這個受刑人個別處遇的自主管理卡"},{"start":8669.717,"end":8684.838,"text":"這個自主管理卡的這個計畫讓這個受刑人他在這個本於這個受刑人在他面對需要這些行政這個他能夠這個自主管理他的這個個別處遇的情況"},{"start":8686.019,"end":8704.809,"text":"讓受刑人能夠擔任自己專案的管理師讓這個教誨師轉化成一個督導的角色我個人認為說這個制度實施是非常好但是我知道現在好像只是在台南第二監獄裡面的業讀專班在實施"},{"start":8710.408,"end":8726.205,"text":"有沒有要擴大到先不要說擴大到全國啦你再除了戒毒專辦是不是整個這個臺南臺南至少在臺南第二監獄有沒有擴大報告委員這個部分是由南二監他自己去擬定計畫去試辦的"},{"start":8728.106,"end":8739.051,"text":"將來我們可以看到事辦完之後的結果請藍二間來我們署本部報告他的成效如何如果可以的話我們再來討論相關的擴大我要講的就是說不要說將來現在他們其實辦理這段時間已經有相當我個人認為有相當的成果是不是現在我們就來進行評估請他們現在就來報告他們辦理的"},{"start":8751.637,"end":8769.571,"text":"的狀況那是不是能夠擴大到能夠推廣到其他的全國的其他的地方我們是可以請他盡快來書裡面報告這個評估之後我希望你們三個月裡面提出報告啦不過三個月後署長已經退休了啦不過你們書裡面三個月提這個報告給我可以嗎"},{"start":8770.531,"end":8792.887,"text":"因為我們要先確認他事辦的成效怎麼樣結果到什麼階段第一個就是三個月的時間你們先了解他們現在事辦的狀況是不是容我們會後來了解實際的情況再跟委員回覆我就是要求三個月你們在三個月裡面去了解他現在事辦的成效"},{"start":8793.607,"end":8816.358,"text":"那去了解 去評估它是不是有推廣的可能是 是 好的那接下來我就是再講的就是剛剛所提到的這個有關毒品這個治療性處遇裡面的這些毒品戒營的部分這個部分其實其實這個我看現在目前的統計我們的這個受刑人幾乎有將近四成都是這個毒品危害防治法"},{"start":8817.708,"end":8841.19,"text":"也就是說我們現在這個其實是負擔很大到四成的受刑人都是因為這個毒品危害防治條例所以這個台灣毒品戒營的這種儲育體系它確實是一個很大的挑戰它也是我們改革這個儲育機制的一個很重要的關鍵但是我們目前全台的我們這些職能治療師"},{"start":8842.751,"end":8867.748,"text":"還有這個相關的這些人力其實都不夠啦那我們在目前我們是希望說我們跟衛福部能夠有一個合作的機制跟平台啦那這個部分現在我們目前有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有跟衛福部就在我們自己人力這些職能治療人力不足的情況之下我們有沒有跟衛福部來合作有相關的機制嗎有相關的平台嗎"},{"start":8870.554,"end":8892.091,"text":"我們相關的毒品的處理包括之前所謂的減害計畫美沙東替代療法我們都有跟以前叫做衛生署像衛福部來做合作相關的我們目前也都有跟衛福部的相關司處來做相關的精進"},{"start":8893.617,"end":8919.535,"text":"這個部分其實他也會牽涉他除了這個人力不足以外他更也會牽涉到他處於的資源的分配不均你在都市跟在其他的縣市這個這些資源也會分配不均我希望說這些機制能夠建立起來台南你不解決這個問題你要所有處於機制的改革都會卡到因為有4成的受刑人是這些毒品防治法的這些受刑人"},{"start":8920.055,"end":8937.009,"text":"所以這部分會是很關鍵最後我提一個這個上個禮拜但是大家社會上並沒有很注目但對我們來講是一個很重要的事情就是上個禮拜這個我們通過這個跟司法院會前之後通過少年事件處理法的這個修正"},{"start":8937.99,"end":8963.78,"text":"的修正啦齁那這個是行政院應該是行政院院會通過啦齁那這個基本上這整個少年事件處理法它這個修法的重點齁就是讓這個少年事件的這些處遇齁能夠它的保護處分齁它能夠轉換它之間有多元化它可以轉換機制啦齁這是第一個重點另外一個重點就是有關於檢討這個修正前案塗銷的一些相關規定啦齁"},{"start":8965.18,"end":8979.887,"text":"因為這個修法會涉及到包括法院的部分包括檢查體系包括社政包括教育包括警政有很多不同的主管機關其實他這個配合這個修法他都必須要同步的修訂一些有關一些相關規定所以我希望說你們這個"},{"start":8985.309,"end":9005.358,"text":"應該要同步的修正這個少年保護官的手冊跟處遇的評估工具那也需要盤點相關的配套啦市長這部分 因為我們準備要進行這樣的修正 省政院會已經通過了我需要相關的配套跟委員報告齁 因為這個少年事件處理法 還有剛剛委員提到的少年保護官齁都是司法院的權責"},{"start":9006.038,"end":9021.546,"text":"我知道那所以我們會配合提出我們這邊對你們這邊有你們這邊保護有一些相關的盤點要盤點你們相關的這些配套你們還是要進行這些配套的修正我們會提出來是謝謝好謝謝沈發慧委員接下來請吳思堯委員宣導"},{"start":9043.735,"end":9057.695,"text":"好謝謝主席辛苦了然後請次長請黃次長還有署長哪一個周署長周署長我特別要請石崇良署長石署長衛福部市委好"},{"start":9059.517,"end":9085.885,"text":"好 大家辛苦了真的很謝謝我們主席這段時間透過排鑽報告以及去現場的考察讓我們對於育政的改革有很多共同的共識但是它畢竟是一個漫長的道路那今天也是為了準備今天的質詢我才特別去了解了現行的我們累進儲育的相關的做法它真的很不人性那個石署長您在這裡"},{"start":9087.905,"end":9103.632,"text":"社會處方籤這個從英國開始倡議的透過導入社會處方籤也是透過藝術透過運動或是透過接觸綠色植物乃至於透過閱讀它有非常多的方式讓"},{"start":9105.741,"end":9118.356,"text":"長照也好或是心理健康衝擊他需要去緩解情緒的人乃至於到癒症的體系的使用世衛處方謙你們現在到底進展到哪裡了"},{"start":9119.522,"end":9137.894,"text":"在台灣跟委員報告確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純靠藥物它很多跟生活習慣相關所以近年來在各國都慢慢地在導入"},{"start":9138.775,"end":9155.046,"text":"不論是在美國叫做生活型態醫學或者是在英國、加拿大稱為社會處方籤都是類似的除了藥物之外要把營養、運動、壓力的調節甚至社會的連結叫做social connection"},{"start":9158.908,"end":9178.819,"text":"都要把它 您說的比較偏向physical health如果在mental health我們對應於預症革新的這種在社會化的部分 你要不要分享一下那當然這個需要有資源的連結啦 就社會處方雖然是經過評估之後 那麼認為他這個"},{"start":9180.74,"end":9193.894,"text":"病人的需要要朝哪個方向去做調整可是他需要有其他的資源這個不全是醫療資源沒錯 他需要有視覺藝術博物館群的協力或者是表演藝術兩聽院 音樂廳的協力"},{"start":9197.558,"end":9211.694,"text":"好 謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們"},{"start":9212.435,"end":9216.076,"text":"透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%"},{"start":9229.541,"end":9251.153,"text":"對於醫療的這個這個花費減少了15%到20%另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收3.5英鎊的對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回"},{"start":9253.444,"end":9278.403,"text":"我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草"},{"start":9279.437,"end":9288.826,"text":"他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級"},{"start":9294.831,"end":9313.818,"text":"這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對"},{"start":9318.294,"end":9338.622,"text":"我們監所對於剛剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利"},{"start":9339.582,"end":9356.281,"text":"他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利"},{"start":9357.142,"end":9373.933,"text":"我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁"},{"start":9374.733,"end":9388.944,"text":"但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪"},{"start":9390.365,"end":9413.072,"text":"好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁"},{"start":9414.42,"end":9442.553,"text":"那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、新設人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是新設人員我上一次質詢有提出來來下一頁好這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的"},{"start":9443.533,"end":9470.838,"text":"糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房"},{"start":9471.818,"end":9501.321,"text":"我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇、電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的寓所管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒"},{"start":9501.761,"end":9529.066,"text":"那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了"},{"start":9530.146,"end":9552.885,"text":"所以呢 我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做 處理 下一頁那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好 或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說"},{"start":9554.046,"end":9580.176,"text":"傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去"},{"start":9581.441,"end":9609.109,"text":"貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性"},{"start":9610.652,"end":9635.944,"text":"對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比"},{"start":9637.042,"end":9654.939,"text":"很懸殊以致於我們這個實施風險評估的條件畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍音樂因為他的積分很多人在是沒有辦法享有這些權利的我不懂"},{"start":9660.482,"end":9678.751,"text":"沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況"},{"start":9680.632,"end":9698.766,"text":"那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個累進的行刑累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個監獄刑刑法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制"},{"start":9702.549,"end":9728.505,"text":"這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上"},{"start":9729.245,"end":9751.15,"text":"逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是ideal type它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化處理的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年"},{"start":9752.37,"end":9774.847,"text":"向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用 約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊"},{"start":9776.168,"end":9794.013,"text":"我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好 時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得"},{"start":9795.013,"end":9808.325,"text":"導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處房間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍"},{"start":9813.73,"end":9835.202,"text":"我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的"},{"start":9836.604,"end":9857.255,"text":"成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上"},{"start":9858.922,"end":9879.7,"text":"就 我不知道還是我解讀錯誤這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好 因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能"},{"start":9880.16,"end":9896.237,"text":"在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎請教的跟委員報告好"},{"start":9899.74,"end":9922.774,"text":"我們對於讀書會 我們都積極來推動包括說 不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動 行為 書車 也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話 為什麼要有不同層級的這些"},{"start":9925.356,"end":9936.192,"text":"住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那"},{"start":9937.952,"end":9960.528,"text":"共同集會的機會有多少甚至包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單啦好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您"},{"start":9962.629,"end":9968.894,"text":"不可能嗎?好,沒關係,我們稍後就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策,謝謝,也謝謝次長,謝謝好,謝謝吳四耀委員你剛才說的那三個月,不過兩個人一整三個禮拜要退休其實這是一個大問題啦,這個確實是受刑人我們一般在講啊,就是說這個除了硬報以外,我們要給他矯正然後我們在整個服刑期間,要讓他這個整個"},{"start":9992.733,"end":10000.084,"text":"情緒又要去穩定比較有名的講法是說要讓他的保有"},{"start":10001.348,"end":10024.538,"text":"基本人權是因為它復歸到這個社會復歸到這個社會是為了整體的社會的絕大多數人融合是好事啦是為了全體啦所以這個是大家在問很有名的一個問題討論多久看你站在什麼樣的一個角度那我們現在先休息五分鐘以後再接續的一個尋討"},{"start":10479.346,"end":10488.429,"text":"好 我們繼續 現在繼續開會接下來我們要請 來 我們最美麗的翁曉琳委員尋答謝謝主席 那麼這邊先有請黃次長黃次長待會還有那個陳廷長陳怡陳廷長"},{"start":10513.98,"end":10527.035,"text":"我們知道其實這個我有看到法務部的資料在這兩次的報告裡面其實也都有顯示出目前我們的看守所基本上都有超收的狀況"},{"start":10527.956,"end":10536.34,"text":"至少有12家看守所當中就有10家的看守所是超收而且超收的比率還蠻高將近30%由此可見就是這個矯正所還有其實當然還有監獄都人滿為患"},{"start":10544.284,"end":10573.067,"text":"那麼我們再看看就是地方檢察署他的向法院申請的羈押人數其實也是逐年攀高而且法院裁定准許的羈押人數的比例都將近高達八成那麼事實上就是我們知道這個如果說八成的這犯罪嫌疑人都會被裁定羈押的話那麼這當然有可能就是會造成我們現在的看守所"},{"start":10573.867,"end":10596.205,"text":"裡面的這個容納量會明顯的會超出原來的這個負荷那麼當然這個羈押它本身是對於犯罪行為犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的剝奪在行使申請羈押以及法院裁定羈押的時候其實都要特別注意到有關於犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的保障那麼"},{"start":10598.231,"end":10608.906,"text":"事實上我想請教法務部跟司法院就是你們認為現行羈押制度有沒有需要改進的地方包含羈押的要件 期間次數等等"},{"start":10610.403,"end":10636.971,"text":"我先跟委員說明 所謂的八成並不是所有的被告的八成因為可以看到委員畫面上呈現這個表事實上所有的新收偵查人數是在最左邊那八成是指其中檢察官如果有向法院來申請羈押的那個核准率大概是八成其實也不到八成 大概都是從七成四 七成三現在到最近是大概七成八 七成九左右"},{"start":10637.851,"end":10667.079,"text":"那這個部分因為是刺涉這個偵查的具體個案的內容所以這個判斷權是在這個報案的假官身上那所以說這個部分呢我想要尊重這個假官假機關行使他法定職權的這個權利那法院的部分我們再請是因為我想現在的這個羈押制度這個民間有很多的批評"},{"start":10667.915,"end":10682.483,"text":"那麼我們有看到有一些看起來是輕罪但是也是去涉及羈押然後呢這個羈押的時間而且越拖越長所以這個部分來講的話司法院有沒有參考其他國家的制度要進行相關的檢討"},{"start":10684.658,"end":10705.485,"text":"跟委員報告這個關於刑事羈押的部分其實是涉及到刑事政策委員剛才講說有沒有修正的必要這個是涉及到刑事政策跟制度的檢討那至於個案中這個才準博羈押的決定那我想還是尊重法官在個案裡面"},{"start":10705.925,"end":10718.455,"text":"好的一個一個職權的行使那因為我今天是就本院這個來關於獄政跟受刑人處遇的是好了因為陳廷長並不是刑事廳的廳長所以這邊的話可能沒有辦法就是很完整的"},{"start":10724.759,"end":10749.27,"text":"來談這個議題那麼我想在這裡的話就是可能要請司法院之後要給我一份報告或者是我不知道現在司法院有沒有一套客觀的評估標準就是可以協助法官來判斷是否有逃亡或再犯風險有沒有採驗證據串證涉及到核准羈押的相關的作業標準對這個部分不知道就是司法院是不是自己有訂定一個內部的"},{"start":10751.282,"end":10772.841,"text":"報告委員 因為這一部分形式部分我不是很熟悉那如果委員今天垂詢的事項有具體的指示那我都可以帶回到院裡面然後委員需要說書面的再跟委員說明我們也可以配合辦理如果說你們有評估標準的話把這個部分送給我有關於羈押"},{"start":10776.264,"end":10785.094,"text":"羈押的相關制度如果司法院自己內部過去曾經有做過相關研習報告或者是說你們自己已經有訂定一套可以客觀"},{"start":10787.792,"end":10802.843,"text":"這個協助法官可以客觀評估相關的羈押的這個標準的規則那也請你們提供給我至少我們在網路上面我好像沒有看到你們有訂立相關的標準那接下來我要請教的另外一個問題就是說因為本席從109年的監察院的報告書裡面有看到"},{"start":10807.126,"end":10811.228,"text":"就是經過司法院自己的統計形式補償的事件從101年到109年8月核准的補償確定的統計件數是903件核准的補償金額是3億5000多萬元那可是像失職公務員求償成功的案件數只有5件求償的成功的金額只有23萬"},{"start":10829.858,"end":10850.656,"text":"那麼就這個議題來講請教為什麼對於刑事補償的案件向失職公務員求償的成功率是如此之低那麼原因是何在我們知道其實依照刑事補償法裡面的規定只要是依照刑事訴訟法軍事審判法少年事件處理法等等這些受理的案件受害人如果因為行為不法"},{"start":10851.116,"end":10879.819,"text":"或是犯罪嫌疑不足而经过不起诉处分或是撤回起诉受驳回起诉裁定或无罪的判决确定之前他曾经有受过积压、鉴定、留置或收容的情况那么受害人都可以请求国家赔偿那么我们可以看到在过去的这些年101年到109年当时这个核准可以去补偿这些受害人的确定件数就高达903件然后核准的金额也非常高3亿多万"},{"start":10880.765,"end":10906.835,"text":"那就代表說基本上就是法官或檢察官在核准這些案件 羈押案件或收留案件的這個程序上面可能有失誤所以呢才會給予受害人有補償嘛對 那但是事後的這個部分有關於再去追究像失職公務員求償的情況當時是說有五件 那到目前為止求償的狀況如何"},{"start":10908.842,"end":10937.075,"text":"報告委員這一個部分如果委員要很精確的統計資料的話那我們可能也是會後再提供給委員可以嗎因為我手邊目前也沒有資料那法務部有沒有知道相關的訊息跟委員報告因為相關這個法令跟委員會面上所講的這個球場審查委員會都是司法院的辦理的業務大家歡迎請司法院再提供給我一直到現在為止到底這個成功的向失職的公務員球場的案件數"},{"start":10938.396,"end":10951.834,"text":"有多少然後以及他就是以及這個球場比例喔那麼我們當然認為說如果說從現在的球場的這個情況來看的話雖然說這些年來是有下降但是這下降的情況"},{"start":10953.843,"end":10975.401,"text":"事實上我也覺得也挺訝異的就是跟之前的比怎麼會差別那麼多是因為這個我們的在整個審查這個羈押的相關的作業越來越精準還是說是這個申請的駁回率很高那這個部分話因為我們也看不太出來實際的情況那麼這個如果說你們有最近這段時間從100"},{"start":10981.566,"end":11004.118,"text":"10年到113年或114年目前的有關於求償的狀況的資料那麼也麻煩請你也一併請司法院給我相關的統計資料好那麼接下來我要問的問題就是有關於高齡化犯罪的問題我們知道其實現在65歲以上高齡犯罪的人口"},{"start":11004.958,"end":11018.424,"text":"是逐年攀升依照內政部警政署的統計從去年113年的9到12月高齡犯罪的嫌疑人就9000多人那麼今年又再增加了2000人來到11000"},{"start":11022.365,"end":11042.875,"text":"148人所以高齡犯罪的處遇相關的法律規範以及配套措施基本上是一個非常重要的議題那麼我們再想請教法務部就是目前針對高齡犯罪者的犯罪預防和處遇的部分你們有沒有進行過相關的研究以及目前提供有哪些特殊的措施以及規範"},{"start":11044.959,"end":11062.675,"text":"跟委員報告 因為我們是主責犯罪偵查跟起訴以及後續刑罰的執行犯罪預防的部分可能要請教其他單位那請 那個委員所提出來的數據大概就是兩劑就是去年第四劑跟今年的第一劑"},{"start":11063.536,"end":11080.112,"text":"那兩季的比較可能就是剛好這個數字有降可能要看更長期的資料來確定說這個高齡化的情形如何當然因為我們國家進入高齡化社會人口的比例本身就要變化了所以這個部分到底相關性如何我們會再去看一下那這邊的話是可以請周署長"},{"start":11081.673,"end":11107.458,"text":"除业部分我再请周署长来说明一下因为我们知道现在最近光是看到几个严重的车祸可能都是高龄者所造成的那么当然现在高龄犯罪的问题就是这些受刑人他们可能本身或许有失智或是其他一些疾病的一些状况那么就矫正机关这里有没有什么一些特别的考量给他们做一些特殊的处理"},{"start":11108.158,"end":11132.954,"text":"是 報告委員我們針對這個法令的部分我們已經修訂了所謂的高齡受刑人的生活指引處於指引另外我們對於每個監獄要求他們要落實所謂的老人工廠被高齡的受刑人要給他適合他的工廠另外就是說我們對於"},{"start":11134.435,"end":11146.902,"text":"醫療院所的合作醫療院所我們會盡量來所謂的老年門診的部分來加強當然這個還要跟衛福部再做溝通做一些協調這方面我們也會來加強辦理"},{"start":11150.17,"end":11178.466,"text":"對 現在因為有學者有建議是不是我們政府應該要參考少年事件處理法的這個法規來訂定一個高齡的專法這當然是有人有這樣的建議那我認為說其實現在台灣已經步入到所謂超高齡社會那未來可能高齡犯罪的情況會越來越嚴重 越來越多那麼我認為說法務部 矯正署等等這裡其實都要提早做一些準備那麼看起來你們現在也只是就是在個案"},{"start":11178.986,"end":11195.784,"text":"的部分自己監索內部做一些這個特別的處理但是呢就未來整體制度來講可能跟衛福部或是在執行就法務部矯正署這裡應該可以更積極的參考其他國家的法制提出更"},{"start":11197.726,"end":11218.887,"text":"更好的一個相關的法規範是跟委員報告對於高齡受刑人民國96年我剛好有機會奉派去考察日本的監所刑務所那其實他們對於高齡受刑人而且有傷高的這些慢性疾病者"},{"start":11219.508,"end":11233.392,"text":"他們是有編制營養師他每天的卡路里相關的他們在96年就有營養師我非常羨慕當然我們現在堅守沒有營養師將來我們可能面臨高齡的挑戰將來可能營養師是有必要減輕他等於是說這些病"},{"start":11243.424,"end":11260.3,"text":"等於慢性病減少他的外衣營養是不是給他吃好而是說對他的身體有益的一些調配是 我了解這個周署長這邊民國96年的時候去參考過去看過日本的制度因為現在大概又過了將近"},{"start":11261.641,"end":11276.087,"text":"二十年吧就是這幾年可能日本那裡有一些變化甚至他們可能更精進他們的這個照顧高齡受刑人的相關的制度所以有機會的話可以再去看看他們那裡的實際的做法那麼我想就是說剛周署長講到營養師引進營養師這個概念很好但是我們其實現在連介護人力比裡面都是明顯的不足"},{"start":11285.311,"end":11302.899,"text":"這個不管是攝服人力啦還有這個教化人力等等這個是全面都不需要去檢討相關人力運用的問題好 那我們這邊的話也希望就是周署長能夠加把勁在這個矯正的人力的地補上面能夠提出一個更好的一個方案好 謝謝委員"},{"start":11306.158,"end":11321.278,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員因為今天司法院派陳庭長他是屬於受刑人的權力救濟的部分所以翁委員所提到的資料部門也請司法院可以一併來做一個提供"},{"start":11324.361,"end":11325.622,"text":"楊瓊英委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":11352,"end":11356.229,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我先請法務部次長請黃次長"},{"start":11362.763,"end":11385.122,"text":"市長 先請教一下中選會在4月15日說受到61件罷免案其中41件涉嫌偽造還有往生者連署都以寒轉最高檢查署告發我想請問一下法務部目前現在偵辦的進度如何 已經全部偵查完畢了嗎"},{"start":11389.591,"end":11410.171,"text":"我想這個每個個案都不一樣有的偵辦進入都不相同我是說每個案子因為這裡面很多案嘛每個案子的偵辦進入都不相同有的已經起訴法如報紙所登載所以基本上對於如果受到告發包含偽照還有"},{"start":11411.352,"end":11422.62,"text":"就是死人連署 亡生者連署我們法務部都會辦都會 這個地檢署如果有收到相關的情資或是說這個 告發移送告發我們都會立案偵辦一定會辦好 那我希望我們這個的司法偵辦不能夠辦藍不辦綠不能選擇顏色辦案市長同意嗎我想沒有這種情形一定會公平的處理"},{"start":11436.889,"end":11454.456,"text":"那麼在上個星期五在傍晚的時候中選會就公布了被罷免的立法委員在第二階段連署人的查對結果結果一共罷免的案件數是31案"},{"start":11457.097,"end":11467.148,"text":"不符合規定的人數高達157226份平均每個案子違規人數高達5071份 超過5000份平均一個案子都超過5000份 這非常"},{"start":11474.736,"end":11496.732,"text":"多 在過去呢我印象裡面就是當時郭台銘去選總統的時候5270多份 那個時候大家已經嚇到了有這麼多的違規的這個份數但是呢 你可以看到這個只是平均喔 平均都超過5000份好 那麼剛才"},{"start":11500.715,"end":11523.107,"text":"次長也說 有立案 偵查就會辦有些都起訴了 有些都關人了這裡面包含罷免吳思瑤跟吳佩儀兩位委員大搜索 大羈押包含黃綠主委 還有其實很多的國民黨的黨部主委現在都被關起來那吳思瑤是幾份呢 2674份"},{"start":11526.008,"end":11543.003,"text":"吳佩奕2537份 辦得風風火火辦到已經起訴 辦到已經羈押所以我剛才說 像我們現在以星期五所公布的數字高達15萬7千多份所以這樣子的一個這麼嚴重的違規 所以次長你認為該不該辦"},{"start":11552.551,"end":11567.879,"text":"委員我想檢查機關只要收到告訴告發或有其他具體的事證都會依法來偵辦那麼因為法務部是做法務行政所以我們對於這些案子我們不會去干涉指示或是有具體任何的好"},{"start":11568.659,"end":11594.244,"text":"好 非常好 一定不能是看顏色來辦案一定要應該一視同仁那在這邊呢 我就直接再跟法務部再來做告發來 我們下一頁 我剛才講到的是總體的是超過15萬7千多份好 那我們在這一次看到這個大罷免 大羈押 大搜索"},{"start":11595.744,"end":11615.02,"text":"辦到很多是說 有這麼多死亡連署 偽造連署這個當然要辦 那我就直接來跟我們法部來做告發譬如說在星期五公佈的丁學忠委員的案子死亡連署高達27人 偽造連署高達298份"},{"start":11622.557,"end":11646.175,"text":"副官企委員也是一樣 連署前死亡人數14人那麼江啟臣 江啟臣還沒有成案但是江啟臣連署前死亡人數已經高達44人另外呢 也是還有劉浩委員 還沒有成案而他的連署前死亡人數就高達56人"},{"start":11648.817,"end":11669.588,"text":"那當然我們這邊當然希望中選會能夠一視同仁的來做告發來做舉報但是呢因為中選會呢可能慢半拍因為現在呢其實已經進入了大罷免那比較有這個特別比較有那個爭議性的是江啟臣跟游浩委員兩位委員他們還在補件當中"},{"start":11673.49,"end":11678.034,"text":"按照 辦吳思瑤 辦吳沛毅的一個潛力的話那麼應該 中選會應該立即告罰八部檢調應該立刻偵辦我是說比照 雙吳 吳思瑤 吳沛毅同樣的江啟臣 游浩 也是一樣前面兩位已經呈案了但是呢 也應該要辦"},{"start":11698.129,"end":11726.328,"text":"那麼還沒有成案的更需要辦要更需要比照無私藥無配意來辦那麼請問一下次長同不同意我想委員每個個案他的具體的犯罪事實的偵查要由個案具體承辦的檢察官他去依法來調查認定那所以說我們在程序上一定會這個所有中選會有來告發因為他是上禮拜五現在是禮拜一假設他有我們都會用同樣的程序來辦理"},{"start":11727.208,"end":11734.335,"text":"一定要用同樣程序來辦因為吳思耀 吳佩儀在連署當中過去中選會這次是第一次在連署過程中他就告發是由審辦的檢察官來決定不要跟我講這些啦所有審辦檢察官笨藍的時候笨藍營連署的時候呢都風風火火 十萬火急"},{"start":11751.832,"end":11755.755,"text":"然後現在呢 就要拖拖拉拉嗎這個就是變成選擇性辦案那另外 我在這邊也要特別提到因為這一次我們在選罷法裡面 我想因為這個"},{"start":11767.742,"end":11795.248,"text":"市長選舉經驗也很豐富在選罷法裡面其實明明白白的規定第一階段的提議人不能夠充當第二階段的連署人這個是法有明文規定您也是這個法律背景但是在這一次的罷免案裡面大量充斥第一階段的提議人在裡面充數"},{"start":11796.568,"end":11822.451,"text":"而且呢他的比例幾乎全面的高達八成以上全面喔他不是有些人高有些人低不是喔全面高達八成以上而且呢有一些委員的第一階段提議人去變成第二階段連署員的比例還在九成以上比如說羅志強委員賴世保委員我個人呢也高達八十八趴好"},{"start":11823.932,"end":11849.691,"text":"所以這個就奇怪囉照理講每一個霸團有些多有些少這個是比較合理全面都在八成以上如果我沒有記錯都在八成五以上所以這是不是形容聯合違規組織犯罪我想這個中選會是主管這個法規他有他的說明了那當然個案中檢察官自己可以再去認定全面都八成以上"},{"start":11851.339,"end":11856.363,"text":"這不是聯合行為嗎我們不是法定的主管機構罷免國民黨的立委不忍苛責"},{"start":11862.62,"end":11883.026,"text":"沒事周選會在說這是組織犯罪請問一下全部的霸團三十多個霸團同樣的有志一同的把這些提議人全部塞成第二階段的連署人這難道不是一個聯合行為跟組織行為嗎好 時間暫停一下我請一下我們的矯正署周署長"},{"start":11892.317,"end":11892.519,"text":"請周署長"},{"start":11896.809,"end":11925.02,"text":"我們在上個星期特別提到有關於我們現在在監獄環境其實有一些很多的問題而且是大家通案的問題就是我們的收容人數太多然後呢我們的相關的就介護人員不足還有一些心理輔導的不足那麼我們在這三天就是這一個禮拜"},{"start":11926.345,"end":11943.743,"text":"即便我們有專題報告但是呢短短三天就出現了兩起的攻擊事件這個包含台東的東城監獄裡面呢出現了他去那個看診護理師呢結果呢他就是拿筆去攻擊護理師攻擊他的臉攻擊他的脖子說這個是情緒失控"},{"start":11949.269,"end":11969.389,"text":"好那在6月9號呢也一樣這是同寢室的受刑人也不知道為什麼結果就打起來了打到對方疑似骨折他意思就是說睡覺的時候互相干擾好那麼署長現在天氣越來越炎熱"},{"start":11970.61,"end":11985.846,"text":"我覺得這也是我們在監獄管理裡面一個非常大的一個考驗對不對天氣越來越炎熱老師說了在監獄裡面幾個人擠成一團可能都是彪形大漢"},{"start":11987.407,"end":12008.088,"text":"睡覺也會碰碰撞撞走路也會碰碰撞撞我們其實即便我們在冷氣房裡面也難免這麼天氣熱也都會心浮氣躁所以我想請教一下在這一段氣候越來越炎熱的時候我們有沒有一些特別有什麼辦法"},{"start":12009.769,"end":12024.322,"text":"來做讓我們的受刑人在情緒管理上他不要受到這樣的氣候炎熱的影響我們降低像我剛才講的短短幾天三天就出現兩起的暴力事件更不要說我們之前討論的"},{"start":12026.664,"end":12039.716,"text":"這個介護人員還要求要求這個受刑人給他口交的事情那個是很嚴重啦那這個是受刑人自己的情緒失控這有沒有什麼辦法先來做一些改善"},{"start":12040.916,"end":12061.184,"text":"報告委員天氣炎熱確實會跟囚情有相關所以我們各角證機關在夏天的時候在六日會比如說給發給受刑人那個所謂的礦潛水結冰的礦潛水給他們做散熱用"},{"start":12061.984,"end":12075.704,"text":"另外就是我們在所謂的三餐我們會一個禮拜有一次給他吃綠豆湯退火的會有這些安排"},{"start":12077.639,"end":12098.971,"text":"這個部分啦 那當然那一個禮拜只有一餐退伙一次大概是一個禮拜一次啦那另外六天不可能每天吃啦 一個禮拜會有一次我覺得看怎麼樣其實這問題還是在於我們是在太極中我最近收到一個台東太原監獄受刑人他裡面講的洋洋灑灑很多啦裡面包含"},{"start":12099.551,"end":12103.515,"text":"這個其實這個長期我覺得你們一定要非常小心就在監獄裡面買東西特別貴而且物價非常地問題這個另外一個他特別提到今年初發生了一個事件喔那麼他們因為吃了那個香腸整個烤得黑黑的這樣子然後吃完之後呢大家集體地上吐下瀉非常嚴重"},{"start":12123.392,"end":12137.38,"text":"後來變成所謂的諾魯病毒可是他們認為自己是食物中毒不是諾魯病毒等於是把它講成是一個好像只是只是病毒感染事件那我要講就剛才講夏天天氣炎熱除了情緒管理之外在飲食衛生上要特別特別的注意這麼多人一個寢室裡面"},{"start":12148.647,"end":12176.426,"text":"六個人四個人在那邊上吐下瀉上吐下瀉你就知道原來衛生的環境就非常非常差然後那會更差所以在這段時間是我們一個非常大的考驗有一些我們剛剛講基本的問題它也許不是短時間它就可以解決我們希望能夠改善你們能夠改善但是呢在因為這個氣候的因素還有就是在夏季衛生食品的管理"},{"start":12177.667,"end":12191.689,"text":"也拜託能夠多費一些心好不好是 報告委員我們那個合作社都會去仿價但是仿價大概是以超商的價格不可以高於超商的價格那"},{"start":12192.13,"end":12206.21,"text":"所以你們這一部分因為這個其實我覺得他寫的不是很清楚但是他提到這部分是所以拜託我們會去留意是不是確實有包圍不要跑監獄裡面價格就翻倍了這是絕對不能容許的好不好是好謝謝"},{"start":12207.632,"end":12220.924,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝王宏威委員我先處理一下會議時間我們上午的會議時間我們就繼續敬請到所有登記發言的委員詢問結束為止我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言謝謝主席 我們麻煩次長請黃次長"},{"start":12233.052,"end":12248.628,"text":"市長我想先延續一下王宏威委員的問題因為上一次王玉川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書那當時我也是請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員那北檢也馬上就分案調查了"},{"start":12249.429,"end":12266.722,"text":"我想說法務部這個部分可能也是要督導一下地檢署這個分案的部分就一定要分案那另外我也是建議啦為了避免掉一些紛爭喔盡量這種案件不要用只分的方式盡量用輪分的方式處理好嗎"},{"start":12267.683,"end":12287.419,"text":"其實過往這些辦的這些案子啊那我一直沒有講一些我自己的對外的一些心裡的話因為他其實承辦的檢察官他以前在群組裡面常常做一些政治的發言以及他們的政治傾向我們也都很了解但是因為我尊重檢方的辦案"},{"start":12288.24,"end":12303.042,"text":"所以次長可以知道我從之前到現在我一直沒有去論述這件事情因為我都是尊重每一位檢察官他各自的政治傾向那我們也期待說檢察官在辦案的時候不要把自己的政治傾向放到"},{"start":12303.723,"end":12318.888,"text":"公務裡面我們自己以前是這樣一路過來的我們有自己的政治傾向但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理就像那個陳瑞仁大學長一樣他就說他是深綠的他的他政治傾向是深綠但是他在辦案的時候他的"},{"start":12320.388,"end":12348.265,"text":"這個政治傾向他只有在投票的那個帷幕的欄裡面他只要出了投票的時候他在公務上面的處理一定是秉公處理所以我不會去批評說那些檢察官他們平常在群組裡面是發言那種論述但是至少我們希望說辦案能夠持平的辦案那可以的話盡量不要用指分的方式用輪分的方式所以跟我們報告就是我們的立場基本的態度都是跟我們類似就是說"},{"start":12349.205,"end":12363.357,"text":"我們會尊重地檢署他的作業我們會尊重甲官辦案的權限沒有 我在公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多 越容易讓人家想"},{"start":12364.358,"end":12388.759,"text":"想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的"},{"start":12389.741,"end":12415.552,"text":"那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我在這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長"},{"start":12416.412,"end":12441.648,"text":"這樣如果說今天有罷免團體 他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻 件數不到門檻他為了衝這個最後的期限可以送件然後去騙取中選會的10天的補件期間那因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成違照文書"},{"start":12442.609,"end":12466.349,"text":"法律論述 法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案法律論述 報告次長你不要再對於假設性的事實問題我們不會去做這個我再請教 文憲的說明那我想是否有構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對這案的反對來啦 次長又回到個案了啦那次長"},{"start":12467.683,"end":12487.538,"text":"講一個我剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是"},{"start":12488.539,"end":12517.859,"text":"個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個是委託文書說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案"},{"start":12519.459,"end":12543.147,"text":"那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成偽造文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛"},{"start":12545.391,"end":12563.231,"text":"那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自"},{"start":12564.853,"end":12589.626,"text":"去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署"},{"start":12590.987,"end":12618.078,"text":"因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書沒關係 次長你不敢回答我沒關係 我尊重委員的描述跟對法律問題的解釋沒關係啦 我跟你講啦反正現在很多很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解他們有他們個別的見解那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責"},{"start":12620,"end":12646.409,"text":"那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那如果是一二階連署單上面肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊中選會不應該一句話說我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選會而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個"},{"start":12648.99,"end":12677.363,"text":"我對於李季勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得我們還是都希望國家好"},{"start":12678.185,"end":12678.328,"text":"好 那"},{"start":12679.349,"end":12707.822,"text":"後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個陳鎮中學嗎對不對 次長也有去嘛那陳鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長 次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪"},{"start":12709.096,"end":12737.878,"text":"上次去完到現在 部裡面有做任何的改革嗎是請次長回答一下好 那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的過程跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在當天我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也會都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師"},{"start":12738.999,"end":12766.034,"text":"他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為很多的中文的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的這個部分我也請他們提出具體的方案我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣"},{"start":12768.255,"end":12787.712,"text":"這樣也沒有講得很具體啦 但是我想說齁 因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛 白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題 包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔"},{"start":12789.413,"end":12815.346,"text":"那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的那個青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊"},{"start":12816.407,"end":12843.505,"text":"這個城鎮中學是辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長"},{"start":12844.065,"end":12857.821,"text":"那個研判可能性我推測的那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少貢犯"},{"start":12859.603,"end":12875.608,"text":"雖然真正在很多有關係但這個部分我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面"},{"start":12877.268,"end":12894.065,"text":"幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛"},{"start":12894.725,"end":12924.085,"text":"所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個承認中學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都"},{"start":12924.885,"end":12935.033,"text":"都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報還有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減"},{"start":12941.198,"end":12968.303,"text":"所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉學員上學校去啊那我想 次長你知道應該知道轉學員的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因"},{"start":12968.823,"end":12993.024,"text":"再用書面來回覆 您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是未成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校"},{"start":12993.524,"end":13019.978,"text":"就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來去那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條 五 七 八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據"},{"start":13023.28,"end":13044.52,"text":"這個部分要麻煩你們給我 最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例 人數比例的問題啦就是借戶人數比例的問題 因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上"},{"start":13045.461,"end":13067.534,"text":"那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有一些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監"},{"start":13068.635,"end":13088.563,"text":"他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡所以他們當時有集體抗議"},{"start":13089.683,"end":13096.651,"text":"還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了"},{"start":13105.541,"end":13122.586,"text":"那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病 精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況"},{"start":13127.962,"end":13152.666,"text":"跟委員報告 委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突 一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們 我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能"},{"start":13153.186,"end":13178.799,"text":"因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治"},{"start":13180.6,"end":13202.522,"text":"其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊"},{"start":13202.862,"end":13221.215,"text":"各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想"},{"start":13222.176,"end":13243.084,"text":"那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子"},{"start":13245.345,"end":13260.199,"text":"非常敬佩署長 署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員 這個改革都還沒有起步還有很長的一段路 其實我都一直這樣覺得"},{"start":13261.52,"end":13266.184,"text":"每一個人每一個人都成長了一個背景啦我小時候我在鄉下的時候啊我以前有管訓隊啊我都看人家在打酒桶欸 斷了這個沒有了沒有這種現象它其實就是一種進步啦那我們現在也揚起特別權力關係啦那但問題是說 畢竟受刑人還是不一樣 還是不一樣"},{"start":13284.798,"end":13311.686,"text":"再一次強調為什麼我們司法法制委員會一直要排這些考察其實我們還是會繼續排下去會排下去的原因其實除了整個預政改革以外受刑人他犯了罪接受國家的一種硬報這本來就有硬報可是我們又認為說他要回歸社會所以又有教育又有矯正"},{"start":13313.438,"end":13325.538,"text":"這個是考驗著整個矯正署啦那真的是確實是酒不發心啦也不是只有偏重管理啦像我個人我最常收到的就是都要尿布啦"},{"start":13326.991,"end":13350.107,"text":"要尿布啊 個案都是要尿布啊我一看就七層八層全部都是受刑人啊那受刑是犯罪犯罪的人他其實他有他的背景都有他太陽會比較不一樣啊所以就是到最後我們為什麼今天很多委員連國民黨委員也會出來已經不再像前面那麼肅殺啦就是說你這個犯罪的人該怎麼樣怎麼樣全部都是嚴懲都是什麼"},{"start":13351.548,"end":13378.526,"text":"這已經到了預證的部分判決確定了所以說他到底穿著球衣的這個國民他的基本人權要給他到什麼地方那剛好矯正署也認為說這個屬於基本的他的基本生活這個部分是國家去編預算可是這個基本生活到底到哪裡到哪裡這個一併啊可以大家來做一個思考那今天進入尾聲我們接下來請蔡宜瑜委員"},{"start":13379.807,"end":13398.043,"text":"蔡議員不在 蔡議員不在那我們所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料會議書面答覆者 請相關機關盡速送交各委員及本會"},{"start":13399.284,"end":13407.367,"text":"那委員楊瓊英 蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"162875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3c0085a4689617f558310b09c95dc98bb9483b76f331b6007fbde0f138237b9f8bb73d48aa6b54ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:11:57 - 09:14:21","影片長度":"00:02:24","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:11:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T09:14:21+08:00","duration":144,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.52909375,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.45846875000001,"end":142.48971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.094,"end":16.879,"text":"博愛座的概念源自於對蔣介石的紀念為民國65年台北市公車業者為追屍已故"},{"start":17.509,"end":45.945,"text":"前總統蔣介石44週年共同協議開始的措施其後在民國102年的時候身心障礙者權益保障法第53條修法規定大眾運輸工具應設立博愛座提供給老弱婦孺優先乘坐並比例要達到總座位的15%因此有了法源依據而後交通部也在106年的時候據此訂定了大眾運輸工具無障礙設施設置辦法"},{"start":47.647,"end":49.17,"text":"整體落實生權法第53條的規定"},{"start":50.646,"end":78.015,"text":"不過近來發生的博愛座之亂其實社會已經爭議了一段時間其中令人擔憂的現象在於爭議事件在媒體所呈現的多半出現的是老人硬逼著年輕人要讓座而發生衝突這樣的訊息在世代間會造成老青兩個世代各自受傷的結果一方面營造老人依老賣老不講理的形象同時也營造年輕人自私冷漠的樣貌"},{"start":79.811,"end":101.497,"text":"讓座本來是出自於乘客間的善意但是因為不讓座而擴大為惡意的解讀甚至造成世代間的爭議這應該不是當時提出法律修正案的委員的想法我認為不讓座應該要設置但是在法律上跟民眾的認知上有各自有調整的必要對有善意的人來說大眾運輸工具"},{"start":103.097,"end":125.334,"text":"不需特别设立博爱座也会自动让座而当民众不让座并不意味着他没有善意而极有可能他也有需要这个座位据这样的观念我认为身权法规定的博爱座应该定义为优先座强调因为身体不是有需要也就是因为身体不是有使用需要的人优先使用"},{"start":125.894,"end":141.836,"text":"換句話說如果沒有這樣的需求出現的時候任何人都可以使用隨著法律的修正對預期媒體的宣傳這樣的新觀念可以及時讓民眾獲得產生出新的見解跟新的社會共識敬請各位委員支持以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"162874","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162874","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3c0085a4689617f58532c958943d505ab9483b76f331b6007fbde0f138237b9fc59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:07:46 - 09:11:50","影片長度":"00:04:04","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T09:07:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T09:11:50+08:00","duration":244,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.78596875,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":140.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.10596875000002,"end":159.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.41534375,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.74346875,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.43409375000002,"end":241.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.70596875,"end":244.06034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.803,"end":20.398,"text":"好可以了好謝謝主席好那我先提到這個深藏者權益保障法第53條的說明那民眾黨這次修法的核心是讓公共空間的設計更符合現代社會的包容性跟多元需求我們不時都會在新聞上看到類似的新聞上禮拜的新北市"},{"start":20.618,"end":23.98,"text":"有一位國東男生他在公車上其實已經讓座給他人卻被一位大媽用好幾分鐘的時間惡言責罵讓這個孩子在車上錯氣那台北捷運也長期出現好多這樣的狀況那這樣類似的糾紛案件大概有幾百件"},{"start":37.105,"end":50.753,"text":"其實實際需求的乘客例如懷孕、出奇的婦女罹患內科慢性疾病或身體不適但沒有辦法清楚辨識的民眾常常因為看不到而被指責被要求讓位甚至引發爭議這會造成使用上的壓力而且也偏離座位設計的原意民眾黨參考了英國、日國、日本及台鐵的做法建議將現行條文中的博愛座優先修正為優先座"},{"start":64.821,"end":67.583,"text":"並將適用對象擴大為有實際需求者取代原來有刻板印象的老弱婦孺這錯詞透過文字跟標示的調整讓公共運輸座位的使用更加清楚讓不必要的產生不必要的道德的這個審判誤會"},{"start":80.213,"end":83.014,"text":"擁擠的車廂有任何需求的攝影都不應該為了一個座位感到羞愧、愁愁或難堪真正成熟的社會不應該把善意變成壓力也不應該讓一張椅子成為道德審判的法庭我們想修的不只是條文而是社會看待需求者的眼光這是選擇而不是義務希望透過這次的修法還規每一個"},{"start":104.884,"end":110.849,"text":"需要被照顧人的一份安心跟尊嚴那請懇請這個各位委員能夠支持我這個版本那我接下來繼續再談老人福利法第48條的修法說明我也謝謝劉教委能夠這次能讓我們來有機會提出這個修正案我們這次提出的第48條修正案主要是為了導正"},{"start":125.66,"end":138.246,"text":"目前不同的長照機構 評鑑制度跟行政處分依據不一致的問題這幾天我有看到很多長照3.0的新聞未來我國的長照政策有三大策略方向就是放寬服務對象 擴充服務內容"},{"start":141.327,"end":158.93,"text":"導入這個社會輔具智慧輔具等等這個創新元素那其中今年九月將優先擴大外籍看護的家庭可以使用日照拖固交通補助並放寬喘息服務的這個場域增加服務機構的彈性這些措施跟我們修正案的理念不謀而合都是"},{"start":159.892,"end":173.587,"text":"關注實際的照顧體驗給予需求者更多的彈性然而在現行制度中老人福利機構被評為兵等或丁等會面臨罰則跟公告然後這個等地制是根據執法所設"},{"start":174.508,"end":177.39,"text":"跟這個長期照顧服務法或護理人員等法規明確的合格跟不合格標準明顯脫節就是一個有等地一個是合格或不合格那這樣的制度不僅造成評鑑制度的結果認定不一也衍生出排名的壓力"},{"start":190.72,"end":194.401,"text":"那機構為了過度的書面的作業實際照顧時間可能受到擠壓那更嚴重的就是制度本身可能會誤導機構為了追求分數 譬如79分跟80分就是不同等地會偏離提高照顧品質的本質目標所以台灣民眾黨的修法是把條文中的兵等或丁等明確改為不合格那作為行政處分的依據"},{"start":216.206,"end":241.412,"text":"也就是說促使主管機關能夠修正執法讓評鑑制度回歸單純公平跟所有的照顧長照的體系有一致的標準就是合格或不合格而不是加以丙丁等讓真正的機構能夠朝向品質提升永續經營的方向邁進這樣也才能夠落實對於高齡者的基本照顧權益保障那我也懇請在座的同事們能夠支持這次的修法謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"162756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a782d2ef6df30c929b9483b76f331b6005c7fa28b96d4b42c50347cd0a995e7775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:14:28 - 09:17:07","影片長度":"00:02:39","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  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請國發會的詹副主委"},{"start":16.771,"end":39.857,"text":"我們現在台灣已經正式邁入了高齡的社會因為少子跟高齡化所以我們人口的結構變成越來越老化所以導致於我們的勞動力的不足所以現在我們在上個禮拜的話我們是排國外人才所以我們放寬了他的居住吸引他流到台灣來工作這個禮拜我們特別排了"},{"start":41.438,"end":51.226,"text":"這個部分的話就是要關心著我們國內人才的流失尤其是我們看到我們2023年台灣到海外工作的大概有62萬人在疫情之前的話大概2019年的話有73萬到74萬人都在跑到國外去工作在這種情形之下的話我們看到我們瑞士"},{"start":64.978,"end":90.889,"text":"洛杉磯管理學院有做一個統計在2024年這個IDM的世界人才排名裡面在全球裡面有67個國家台灣的話排名18日本的話排名43所以說這台灣還是有一定的那個競爭力可以把他攬柴那又再根據勞動部跟日本這個總務省的統計截止到今年2025年的5月份的話在"},{"start":93.57,"end":112.661,"text":"台灣人到日本工作了大概有五萬人日本人到台灣工作了有八千五百人所以副主委你看到這種情形台灣在世界排名這麼高高於日本但是我們的台灣人卻到日本工作的人數這麼多你有什麼因應的這些做法呢"},{"start":115.472,"end":135.306,"text":"謝謝委員 我想這個一方面可能也是因為我們企業在全球佈局的關係不過當然我們是很希望我們人才的部分當然還是希望為台灣所用無論是自己的本國人或是外國人所以塑造一個良好的這個環境是我們現在最重要的一個部份對 這種現象你們如何因應呢"},{"start":135.746,"end":148.894,"text":"是 所以我想我們因為剛剛提到我們上禮拜排這個外國人才修法的這個報告其實就是要把我們吸引外國專業人才來台灣的環境塑造得更好"},{"start":149.986,"end":178.136,"text":"所以這是國內的人才要留住啊國內的人才的部分其實我們也從幾個面向來處理啦譬如說有關AI這些人才的需求那我們透過擴展國內的教育STEM人才的培育重點的領域學校領域人才在國內你在講國外沒有沒有我現在提到是說國內的AI人才的部分那我們也會加強的培育讓他們在國內有良好的這個可以發揮的這樣子的一個環境"},{"start":179.196,"end":200.461,"text":"所以你要積極把人才 國內人才要留住啦不要一直吸引外國人才 忽略了我們國內的人才好不好還有根據我們看到現在都是高齡化要重返職場嘛因為我們人的勞動力缺乏所以你們有舉辦一個這個中高齡及高齡者及高齡就業的促進法所以讓我們高齡者可以"},{"start":204.301,"end":231.941,"text":"回到職場上工作但是你看到在我們的該法規的34條裡面他大概都提到說是臨時性的短期性的跟季節性或者分部分的工時這樣子的情形會衍生的就像很多人印象中認為高齡者大概都是兼職的很臨時性的甚至在我們職場上看到你們有點霸凌的就對年齡的歧視的問題這點你要怎麼樣去解決呢"},{"start":234.151,"end":248.777,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們在推動中高齡對於我們的未來的勞動力其實非常非常重要所以我想應該不會只僅限於上面提到的臨時性可是目前大概都是兼職的臨時性 季節性的所以你要趕快的橫向溝通像勞動部的話你如果去跟他協調溝通"},{"start":252.578,"end":273.901,"text":"解決這種產生出來的矛盾性其實我了解勞動部他有針對企業來加強有關於中高齡如果回企業就業的時候甚至二度就業的時候在很多工作上或者是環境上要怎麼提供他們一個比較好的方式讓他們可以發揮所長那這點勞動部他已經在跟很多企業在推動這方面的做法"},{"start":274.521,"end":301.123,"text":"是 所以因為你們鼓勵他們能夠重返職場去就業但是職場上給他們就有產生的這種兼職啦或年齡的這個歧視這個等等問題這個你要去解決好不好那才可以鼓勵他們的才能才能繼續在我們的職場上貢獻好不好好那接下來就是要請教謝謝你我們先來請交通部的林次長林次長"},{"start":304.188,"end":304.376,"text":"谢谢"},{"start":309.113,"end":333.729,"text":"市長今天大家都有談到這高齡駕車的這個風險性那尤其是交通部也規定了在這個執照上已經下降從75歲下降到70歲那未來都對除了體格的檢驗以外檢查以外還會針對以危險的感知跟交通安全的這個教育在這方面的話我們看到現在目前來講的話我們要讓高齡者"},{"start":337.111,"end":356.839,"text":"你的鼓勵高齡者要繳回這個駕照所以你每邊的預算要來補助像通勤的月票但是不是每個地方都像都會地區大車非常方便那偏遠地區的話他們就不方便所以這個不是全面性要這樣做雖然是鼓勵啦但是我們還可以一個方面就是說看如果去避開這個降低這個高年齡的這個"},{"start":360.821,"end":387.34,"text":"開車的造勢這個風險譬如說我們看到日本日本有一個方案就是說加裝防霧彩油門的這個系統我們是不是可以比照日本來做這個因應的措施包委員這個案子我們部內跟工作局大概在這幾個月內會去討論討論多久我們可以借盡日本的方式最有安全的做法也不"},{"start":391.982,"end":402.649,"text":"跟委員報告一下 確實就是委員所提到在日本就是有這種防物材油門的部分它是做外加的部分所以目前我們也在針對目前我們在針對日本這樣子的一個系統來做這個"},{"start":408.973,"end":433.77,"text":"所以好好的去研究我們三個月會完成分析這個方案如果可行的話趕快推行好不好是 我們三個月完成分析還有接下來就是說我們看到我們交通部的統計的資料最近這十年的交通事故的占比來講的話18歲到24歲是比較年輕的人但是最主要的還是成年人在25到64歲是比較多所以我們看到一個考到駕照是18歲來講的話他到換照75歲這中間有57年的時間"},{"start":439.793,"end":455.578,"text":"這57年時間我們要如何去讓他重新授訓讓他的技術更加的純熟在這個部分的話我們不能等到發生交通事故你再來亡羊補牢叫他來的時候上個道安課程所以我們可以未以籌募了什麼方式來處理呢"},{"start":456.277,"end":480.649,"text":"高委員我麻煩供應司跟委員報告目前大概就是18歲考慮你駕駛執照之後以目前的一個規定的話到這一個75歲要做換照那剛剛委員也有關切到57年時間你們都沒有做一些防範措施然後在中間的過程當中在中間的過程當中就透過這個祭典還有違規的這些相關的那個就是像大安課程一樣對對對這個大安獎"},{"start":485.693,"end":493.302,"text":"這個這樣講法的話我本席是不能接受的啦我們看到國際上很多的其他的國家都有回訊的方式"},{"start":494.703,"end":520.611,"text":"所以現在有了駕照之後的話聽了很久沒有開車然後隔了五年十年開車之後他的技術可不可以忘記了或者重新檢驗了他的訓練這個可以考量的所以這個部分的話你看日本也有啊 韓國也有啊部長提出那個駕照管理三策略那其中第二項就是要建立這個那個回訊的制度來這個提高所以你沒有準備要做回訊紀錄你連回訊一次"},{"start":523.512,"end":551.971,"text":"這個部分的話我們針對高風險會來建立這個火線的一個這個制度本席提醒你不要完全針對高風險特別有提醒你到25到65歲最是交通事故是最高的所以你真的從不把針對高風險是不對的我需要舉例告訴你有些人好多家都沒有開車停了很久在這個部分的話我們就是也要來考慮說有回訊的資質不能完全針對高風險高年齡的人"},{"start":553.513,"end":559.778,"text":"跟護委員報告不是針對高年齡的部分其實這個回訊制度我們回訊制度的部分其實就是針對剛剛委員所關切的24到64歲之間這些相關就是說我們講的不偏屬於高齡駕駛者這一塊我們現在在研議這個這個三個月我們會完成這個研議好 這些都是我們防範未來的一些措施"},{"start":580.876,"end":585.25,"text":"讓我們交通事故降低這才是我們大家最關心的 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":548,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時36分）謝謝主席，請國發會的詹副主委。"],["主席：詹副主委。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，現在我們臺灣已經正式邁入了高齡的社會，因為少子跟高齡化，所以人口的結構變成越來越老化，導致勞動力不足。我們在上個禮拜排國外人才會議，放寬了居住，吸引他們留在臺灣工作；這個禮拜我們特別排了這部分，就是要關心我們國內人才的流失，尤其是看到2023年臺灣人到海外工作大概有62萬人，在疫情之前的話，大概2019年有73萬到74萬人跑到國外工作。在這種情形之下，洛桑管理學院2024年IMD世界人才排名，全球有67個國家，臺灣排名18，日本排名43，所以說臺灣還是有一定的競爭力，可以攬才。又再根據勞動部跟日本總務省的統計，截至今（2025）年5月份，臺灣人到日本工作大概有50,000人，日本人到臺灣工作有8,500人。","副主委，你看到這種情形，臺灣在世界排名這麼高，高於日本，但是我們臺灣人到日本工作的人數卻這麼多，你有什麼因應的作法呢？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員。我想一方面可能也是因為企業在全球布局的關係，不過我們當然很希望人才的部分還是為臺灣所用，無論本國人或外國人，所以塑造良好的環境是我們現在最重要的一個目的。"],["呂委員玉玲：這種現象你們如何因應？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員剛剛提到上禮拜排外國人才的修法報告，其實就要把我們吸引外國專業人才來臺灣的環境塑造得更好，所以這是……"],["呂委員玉玲：國內的人才要留住。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：國內人才的部分，其實我們也從幾個面向來處理，譬如說有關AI這些人才的需求，我們透過擴展國內的教育STEAM人才的培育、重點的領域學校……"],["呂委員玉玲：留人才在國內，你一直講國外。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：沒有，我現在提的是國內AI人才部分，我們也會加強培育，讓他們可以在國內有良好的發揮環境。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要積極把國內人才留住啦，不要一直在吸引外國人才，忽略了我們國內的人才，好不好？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們看到現在都是高齡者要重返職場，因為勞動力的缺乏，所以有訂定中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法，讓高齡者可以回到職場上工作，但是在該法第三十四條，大概都是提到臨時性、短期性、季節性或部分工時，這樣子的情形會衍生出讓很多人的印象都認為高齡者大概都是兼職的、很臨時性的，甚至看到在職場上有點霸凌，就是對年齡的歧視問題，這點你要怎麼樣去解決呢？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員。我想我們在推動中高齡對於我們未來的勞動力其實非常、非常的重要，所以應該不會僅限於上面提到的臨時性、短期性……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是目前大概都是兼職的，臨時性的、季節性的。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我想有些企業……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要趕快的橫向溝通，像勞動部的話，你如何去跟他協調溝通，解決這種產生出來的矛盾性？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：就我了解，勞動部有針對企業來加強有關於中高齡如果回企業就業的時候，甚至二度就業的時候，在很多工作上，或者是環境上，要怎麼提供他們一個比較好的方式，讓他們可以發揮所長，勞動部已經跟很多企業在推動這方面的作法。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，因為你們鼓勵他們能夠重返職場去就業，但是職場上給他們的就是產生了這種兼職或年齡歧視等等問題，這個你要去解決，好不好？這樣才可以鼓勵他們，他們才能繼續在我們的職場上貢獻，好不好？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員的指導。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝你。我接下來請交通部的林次長。"],["主席：林次長。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：委員好！"],["呂委員玉玲：次長，今天大家都有談到高齡駕車的風險性，尤其是交通部也要規定駕照的換照年齡下修，從75歲下修到70歲，而且未來除了體格的檢驗、檢查以外，還會針對於危險感知及交通安全教育。在這方面，我們看到，目前我們都鼓勵高齡者要繳回駕照，你們也編列預算要來補助，像通勤的月票，但是不是每個地方都像都會地區搭車非常方便，偏遠地區的話，就不方便，所以這個不是全面性要這樣做，雖然是鼓勵，但是我們還可以有另一個方案，看如何去降低高齡者開車肇事的風險，譬如我們看到日本，日本有一個方案就是加裝防誤踩油門這個系統，我們是不是可以比照日本來做這個因應措施？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，這個案子部內和公路局大概在這幾個月內會去討論，討論好以後……"],["呂委員玉玲：這個會討論，要討論多久？"],["林次長國顯：會用配套措施來處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們可以借鏡日本的方式，這有安全的作法。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我是不是也請公運司林司長補充一下？"],["呂委員玉玲：好。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，確實如委員所提到的，在日本有這種防誤踩油門的部分，它是做外加的，目前我們也在針對……"],["呂委員玉玲：多一個安全的措施、安全的步驟……"],["林司長福山：對，目前我們也在針對日本這樣的系統……"],["呂委員玉玲：可以防止他暴衝……"],["林司長福山：來做分析……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以好好的去研究……"],["林司長福山：我們3個月會完成分析。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個方案如果可行的話趕快推行，好不好？"],["林司長福山：是，我們3個月會完成分析。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來我們看到交通部的統計資料，最近這10年各年齡層交通事故的占比來講的話，18歲到24歲是比較年輕的人，但是最主要的還是在25歲到64歲的成年人比較多。我們看到，考到駕照是18歲來講的話，到換照是75歲，這中間有57年的時間，這57年的時間，我們要如何去讓他重新受訓，讓他的技術更加的純熟？在這個部分，我們不能等到發生交通事故，再來亡羊補牢，叫他來上個道安課程。所以我們可以未雨綢繆的用什麼方式來處理呢？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我麻煩公運司來說明。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，18歲考領駕駛執照之後，以目前的規定，到75歲要換照，剛剛委員也有關切……"],["呂委員玉玲：57年的時間，你們都沒有做一些防範措施？"],["林司長福山：在中間的過程當中就透過記點，還有違規相關的……"],["呂委員玉玲：那個就是上道安課程而已。"],["林司長福山：對，就是道安講習，但是這個道安講習我跟……"],["呂委員玉玲：這個這樣講法的話，本席是不能接受的……"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們看到國際上很多其他國家都有回訓的方式……"],["林司長福山：對，所以……"],["呂委員玉玲：有些人有了駕照之後，停了很久沒有開車，隔了5年、10年開車的時候，他的技術可能忘記了，可不可以有重新檢驗他的訓練，這個是可以考量的。"],["林司長福山：是，所以在日前……"],["呂委員玉玲：你看日本也有，韓國也有。"],["林司長福山：部長提出駕照管理三策略，其中第二項就是要建立回訓制度，來提高……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們有準備要做回訓制度，幾年回訓一次？"],["林司長福山：我們會針對高風險先來建立回訓制度……"],["呂委員玉玲：本席提醒你，不要完全針對高年齡，特別提醒你，25歲到64歲交通事故的占比是最高的……"],["林司長福山：對，針對……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你全部針對高年齡是不對的，本席有舉例告訴你，有些人考了駕照都沒有開車，停了很久，在這個部分，我們也要來考慮有回訓機制，不能完全針對高年齡的，好不好？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，不是針對高年齡的部分，其實這個回訓制度……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們的回訓制度預計是多少年回訓一次呢？"],["林司長福山：我們的回訓制度就是針對剛剛委員所關切的25歲到64歲之間這些，就是我們講的不偏屬於高齡駕駛這一塊……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們會做回訓嘛！"],["林司長福山：對，我們現在在研議這個回訓制度……"],["呂委員玉玲：在研議，要多久出來？"],["林司長福山：3個月我們會完成這個研議。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，這些都是我們防範未然的措施，讓我們交通事故降低，這才是我們大家最關心的，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在休息7分鐘。","休息（10時45分）","繼續開會（10時53分）"],["主席：開始開會。","現在請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T13:03:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T13:14:36+08:00","duration":695,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.047218750000001,"end":4.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.61221875,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.79784375,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.814093750000001,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.46346875,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.99909375,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.78346875,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.54221875,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.44909375,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.777843750000002,"end":32.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.48159375,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.01221875,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.77159375,"end":40.986593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.03721875,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.91034375,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.53471875,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.37409375,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.65596875,"end":51.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.00596875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.056593750000005,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.87909375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.38096875,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.68471875,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.90409375,"end":55.954718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.954718750000005,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.98846875,"end":56.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.96721875,"end":57.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.94971875,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.94471875,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.12159375,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.53909375,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.43971875000001,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.96284375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.03034375,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.97534375000001,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.11846875,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.07596875,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.95721875000001,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.39909375,"end":109.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.20784375000001,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.55346875000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.62909375000001,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.56971875,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.37909375000001,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.69096875000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.49659375,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.13409375,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.26471875000001,"end":152.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.34034375000002,"end":153.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.03221875,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.83596875,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因為我下一題就是剛剛您講的就是我們各項的無障礙設施其實它涉及很多不同的機關所屬權責那衛福部現在跟未來"},{"start":220.168,"end":231.255,"text":"到底怎麼去協調各部會把通用設計的理念逐步納入改善設施你們現在有做法"},{"start":237.609,"end":259.321,"text":"那目前有一些通用設計的一些比較這個一般性的概念那其實我們跟內政部這邊有在已經在這個建築技術規則的建築物的那個無障礙設施設計的規範裡面他就已經一步一步的有在一步一步的去做導入了就是說那他不是只有在做"},{"start":261.281,"end":280.106,"text":"身心障礙者之於使用那一步一步有在導入那另外在這個特殊教育法裡面那也把這些概念都一步一步的在導入學校的部分也在進一步的導入進一步大概也有透過一些產業的這種活動或者競賽來去做相關的觀念宣導或者引入"},{"start":281.927,"end":305.757,"text":"這個涉及跨部會的問題就是我們修我們的法可是同時也必須要橫向的跟其他的部會做統整的工作我們會跟各部會一起來,相關的部會一起來努力就上次身障者的個人有一個個人助理制度"},{"start":307.226,"end":321.011,"text":"由個人助理制度就是他大概就是為了要照顧身心障礙者所以身心障礙者是可以透過申請來申請"},{"start":324.759,"end":348.329,"text":"個人助理那現在多數的地方政府都設有60每個月60小時的申請上限這個應該不是中央規定的不是可是地方政府多數都說是中央規定的這個部長知道嗎我們應該沒有規定"},{"start":350.727,"end":365.685,"text":"我們目前是沒有去設定在一個60小時的上限地方政府之所以會規定大概是因為經費不足對不對服務量能跟經費"},{"start":368.368,"end":382.323,"text":"個人助理的部分他現在和如果他是同時可以個案同時可以使用長照服務的話其實在評估的過程就是他會把各種服務一起綜合性的去評估個案的需求用哪些各種各樣的服務"},{"start":384.734,"end":397.552,"text":"對 可是其實我在想地方政府規定了60個小時當然有多少人力"},{"start":399.802,"end":424.738,"text":"預算才能支應多少服務量的那60個小時確實是可能對於某一些有在使用的身體傷害者是明顯不足的那這個部分請中央跟地方還是要去做一定的溝通最後問一個時事的題目就是自殺率的問題部長我們"},{"start":429.059,"end":443.951,"text":"我們在113年十大死因統計自殺死亡首度突破4000人比前一年多了164那特別是15歲到24歲15歲到24歲的自殺率從2014年每10萬人5.1攀升到2023年"},{"start":458.518,"end":481.405,"text":"10.9也就是說從2014到2023增加了一倍增加了一倍那我們衛福部有計畫在提供15到45歲每一個人每一年三次免費的諮詢服務這個期限是到"},{"start":483.072,"end":492.538,"text":"2025年也就是今年連體會結束會不會延長這個應該一定會延長一定會延長一定會延長因為我看你們的統計就是使用這項計畫的滿意度高達96%就表示這是一個很好的計畫那"},{"start":504.775,"end":530.006,"text":"可是呢我最後再點出一點就是這個方案在112年推出的時候每個月平均可以服務到接近3500人可是從去年的7月到今年5月這11個月的平均量能"},{"start":532.574,"end":549.581,"text":"降到只剩下2100人也就是說量能我們的統計就是服務的滿意度很高可是量能減少可是自殺死亡的人數增加不懂我的意思嗎這三個"},{"start":557.99,"end":574.382,"text":"這三個數據是有衝突的這時間的關係所以我讓你們待會去做研究參考好不好好就是說到底為什麼諮詢的效果我們覺得不錯可是呢來使用這個計畫的人數降低"},{"start":584.38,"end":592.654,"text":"然後自殺的人數增加這個可能到底盲點在哪裡報告委員可不可以請先生簡單的回應一下"},{"start":596.577,"end":622.368,"text":"跟委員報告我們在去年8月份的確是有把這個心理健康支持的方案的這個服務的對象有擴大到45歲那其實除了新建市這邊推動的這個心理健康的支持方案之外其實在教育部這邊他們也透過修正學生輔導法來增加校園的一個輔資的人力那另外呢其實相關的部會也有推動他們自己的心理健康支持的方案"},{"start":622.808,"end":643.595,"text":"所以剛剛委員特別提到說使用我們的心理健康支持的方案感覺上人數是有減少這個其中一個可能的原因是因為相關的部會也有提供心理健康的支持各部會所以你這樣子的說法就是是從去年7月其他的部會才推出"},{"start":647.284,"end":664.717,"text":"應該是說相關的部會其實他們持續都有在推出這個心理健康支持的方案而且有在做一些滾動的修正所以說可能大家的這個服務方案越來越精進所以說不是除了衛福部的心理健康支持方案之外其實求助的管道也變多了"},{"start":665.177,"end":686.029,"text":"你這樣子的講法我可能沒有辦法接受不過我還是可以讓你們待會去跟各部會討論看看因為我剛才講的這三個數據確實是有衝突的我們來把真正的原因找出來好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時3分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，衛福部去年預告修正身心障礙者權益保障法。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["楊委員曜：有關無障礙設施，我們將合理調整跟通用設計這兩個概念入法，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員曜：我今天先跟你們的團隊討論一下合理調整跟通用設計，合理調整其實比較像處理個案，通用設計就是以後我們不管在環境、交通、資訊、通訊等各層面都要依照通用設計的原則來規劃，算是一個全面性的東西，對不對？現在有民團表示，合理調整會被誤用或是被當成阻礙長期規劃的擋箭牌，也就是說，政府對於各項設施長期規劃改善的計畫，讓國家邁向通用性無障礙環境，會不會因為導入合理調整而延緩？衛福部的看法是什麼？不一定要部長回答。"],["邱部長泰源：我想不管是合理調整或通用設計，都是國際的一個趨勢，也是CRPD所提出來的名詞。當然對於軟體、硬體的合理調整，整個通用設計有幾個原則在做整體性的處理，基本上委員所擔心的部分，請周代理署長說明。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，現在無障礙設施的部分，規定在身權法第五十七條，它是一個義務，一定要遵守，合理調整是這次在修法的過程裡面比較新引進來的作法，是國際上新的趨勢，目前在作法上面的話，我們是比較傾向於用一個指引的方式，讓各個相關的主要目的事業主管機關能夠在他的目的事業裡面去訂定怎麼樣合理調整。那通用設計也是一個……它無障礙的程度沒有到這麼高，但是它是一個讓更多人更方便去使用的觀念，其實和無障礙的觀念還是稍微有一點點不一樣。"],["楊委員曜：還是有一點差別？"],["周代理署長道君：是。"],["楊委員曜：我的下一題就是剛剛您講的，我們各項無障礙設施，其實它涉及很多不同的機關所屬權責，對不對？衛福部現在跟未來到底要怎麼去協調各部會把通用設計的理念逐步納入改善設施？"],["邱部長泰源：這個請代理署長回答一下。"],["楊委員曜：你們現在的作法是怎麼樣？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前有一些通用設計是比較一般性的概念，其實我們跟內政部已經在建築技術規則的建築物無障礙設施設計的規範裡面一步一步去做導入了，不是只有針對身心障礙者的使用，這部分都有一步一步導入。另外，在特殊教育法裡面，也把這些概念都一步一步的在導入。"],["楊委員曜：學校？"],["周代理署長道君：是，學校的部分，也在做逐步的導入，也有透過一些產業的活動或者競賽去做相關的觀念宣導或引入。"],["楊委員曜：我的意思是這個涉及跨部會的問題，我們修我們的法，可是同時也必須要橫向跟其他部會做統整的工作。"],["周代理署長道君：我們會跟相關部會一起來努力。"],["楊委員曜：身障者有一個個人助理制度，大概就是為了要照顧身心障礙者，所以身心障礙者是可以申請個人助理。現在多數的地方政府都設有每個月60小時的申請上限，這個應該不是中央規定的？"],["邱部長泰源：不是。"],["楊委員曜：不是中央規定的，可是地方政府多數都說是中央規定的，部長知道嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：我們目前是沒有去設定這樣60小時的上限。"],["楊委員曜：地方政府之所以會規定，大概是因為經費不足，對不對？"],["周代理署長道君：因為服務量能跟經費，然後因為個人助理的部分，如果個案是同時可以使用長照服務的話，其實在評估的過程，他會把各種服務一起綜合性的去評估個案的需求，可以用哪些各種各樣的服務。"],["楊委員曜：可是我在想地方政府規定60個小時上限，當然有多少人力、有多少預算才能支應多少服務量能，60個小時確實可能對於某一些有在使用的身心障礙者是明顯不足的，這個部分，請中央跟地方還是要做一定的溝通。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會檢討。"],["楊委員曜：最後問一個時事的題目，關於自殺率的問題。部長，在113年十大死因統計裡，自殺死亡人數首度突破4,000人，比前一年多了164人，特別是15歲到24歲的自殺率，從2014年每10萬人有5.1人攀升到2023年的10.9人，也就是從2014到2023年增加了一倍，你們衛福部有計畫再提供15歲到45歲每一個人每一年3次免費的諮詢服務，這個期限是到2025年，也就是今年年底會結束，會不會再延長？"],["邱部長泰源：這個一定會延長。"],["楊委員曜：一定會延長？"],["邱部長泰源：會繼續做。"],["楊委員曜：因為我看你們的統計，使用這項計畫的滿意度高達96%，表示這是一個很好的計畫。我最後再點出一點，這個方案在112年推行的時候，每個月平均可以服務到接近3,500人，可是從去年的7月到今年5月，這11個月的平均量能降到只剩下2,100人，雖然你們統計的服務滿意度很高，可是量能減少，自殺死亡的人數卻增加，部長懂我的意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員曜：這3個數據是有衝突的，因為時間的關係，所以我讓你們帶回去研究參考，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員曜：到底為什麼諮詢的效果我們覺得不錯，可是來使用這個計畫的人數降低，而自殺的人數卻增加？這個的盲點到底在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我可不可以請司長簡單地說明一下。"],["楊委員曜：可以。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，我們去年8月份，的確有把這個心理健康支持方案的服務對象擴大到45歲，其實除了心健司這邊推動這個心理健康的支持方案之外，在教育部也透過修正學生輔導法增加校園的輔諮人力。另外其他相關部會也有推動他們自己的心理健康支持方案，所以剛剛委員特別提到，使用我們的心理健康支持方案的人數感覺上有減少，這個其中可能的原因是因為相關的部會也有提供心理健康支持的諮詢服務。"],["楊委員曜：各部會也有，所以你這樣的說法就是指其他的部會是從去年7月才推出，才會有這樣的落差。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：應該是說相關的部會，其實他們持續都有在推出這個心理健康支持的方案，而且有在做一些滾動的修正，也有可能大家的服務方案也越來越精進。所以除了衛福部的心理健康支持方案之外，其實求助的管道也變多了。"],["楊委員曜：你這樣的講法，我可能沒有辦法接受，不過我還是可以讓你們帶回去跟各部會討論看看，因為我剛才講的這3個數據確實是有衝突的，請你們把真正的原因找出來，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。本日會議詢答全部結束，委員謝龍介、楊瓊瓔及葉元之所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員謝龍介書面質詢：","根據衛福部健保署統計，近五年曾領有重大傷病證明的人數逐年上升，113年有近167萬7,842人，年齡層以61至70歲為最多，高達38.1萬人；51至60歲也有27萬人。值得注意的是，41歲至50歲領有重大傷病人數雖非最高，卻呈現增加趨勢，109年16萬3,048人，113年人數已達17萬817人。可見中年以後至60歲，重大傷病領證人數急遽增加。","從重大傷病項目來看，113年前十名疾病為癌症、慢性精神病．需終身治療之全身性自體免疫症候群、洗腎、先天畸形及染色體異常、器官移植、先天代謝異常疾病、罕見疾病、小兒麻痺或腦性麻痺、重大創傷。目前領有重大傷病卡民眾可免繳因該疾病就醫時的部分負擔，但沒有額外現金給付的各項社會福利。","許多重大傷病如癌症、洗腎患者，因為沒有影響生活功能，故無法領取身心障礙手冊。也因為年齡、身體狀況並非長照服務對象，亦無就醫或復健交通接送服務。","洗腎、癌症治療等患者，需要定期前往醫院接受治療，交通方式除了家人接送、搭乘大眾交通工具、計程車、自行駕車前往。偏鄉患者因為大眾運輸缺乏，就只剩下家人接送或自行駕車，相當不方便。且接受治療後有可能會產生昏眩、體力不支等身體不適情況，並不適合自行駕車。今年1月台北市南港區，一名56歲黃姓小黃運將，疑似洗腎完精神不濟，擦撞路旁小貨車，再撞倒5輛機車後，整輛車暴衝撞進國家文官學院大門。","建請衛福部一個月內研議針對領有重大傷病卡之患者，補助其就醫搭乘計程車之費用。患者可於治療期間提出申請，經審核通過並發給乘車券或點數，得持乘車券或點數搭乘指定車隊往返醫療院所進行治療，並制定補助金額上限與次數。"],["委員楊瓊瓔書面質詢：","一、「博愛座」立意良善，原本是美事一樁，但卻屢屢成為衝突導火線，近期又有國中生搭公車坐「博愛座」遭責難落淚。現行法規訂有「博愛座」設置比例與位置，但長年未調整，引發使用定義模糊、爭議頻傳等問題，讓原先設計給老弱婦孺優先使用的博愛座爭議不斷，也讓有需求的民眾變得不敢使用。請問部長，從去年開始衛福部就有表示希望可以藉由修法來改善博愛座引發的爭議，為何到現在還只有看到各委員的版本？行政院的版本呢？政府的立場是什麼？過去立法院法制局也曾建議以「優先席」取代博愛座，並將老弱婦孺改為「其他實際需要者」，衛福部的看法呢？也有人建議博愛座可以參考日本的模式，不只有顏色上的差異，更應有機能設計的區別，政府是否評估過相關可行性？","二、近期台劇《忘了我記得》播出後引發熱議，該劇以失智為題，描述女兒在父親失智後，在照顧責任與工作之間喘不過氣，疲累無助。就有專家指出，台灣人從失能到死亡平均約7年，但從失智到死亡，則是10幾年起跳，照顧歷程長，需要的資源也多。老人福利推動聯盟秘書長受訪中直言，無法滿足家庭需求，是當前長照一大課題，例如只提供單次性服務，被看護者還是得住進長照機構或請移工照顧；另一問題則是人力不足，除基層照服員缺乏外，住宿型機構護理師也極度缺乏，雖然有床位，卻可能因缺人開不出來。請問部長，住宿型機構短缺，純失智的機構也不足，面對超高齡化的社會，政府應該如何來因應？在治療失智症部分，食藥署今年核可美國與日本合作研發的「樂意保（LEQEMBI）」與美國禮來藥廠研發的「欣智樂（KISUNLA）」兩款針劑，分別有助延緩病程26%和35%，但必須在醫院施打。請問部長，衛福部日前表示已有一款提出健保給付申請，目前進度為何？","三、行政院長卓榮泰公開宣示長照3.0明年正式上路，但就有學者擔憂恐怕面臨跳票！根據財政部統計，挹注長照基金最重要的四大稅收，今年前5月稅收挹注長照基金299億元、年減16.7%，占累計分配預算數比率為79.4%，達標率低，稅收入帳不如預期，四大稅收來源全面衰退，其中房地合一稅、遺產稅、贈與稅都呈雙位數年減。如果再不尋求解決之道，長照3.0未上路就面臨破產可能。請問部長，衛福部如何來因應？有專家籲政府盡速課徵加熱菸稅，政府的立場為何？"],["委員葉元之書面質詢：","立法院113年7月16日三讀通過，要求衛生福利部應於114年6月30日前，達成健保平均點值1點0.95元之主決議，將於本月底屆期，衛福部仍未提出具體、有效的執行方案，為此，特向衛生福利部提出書面質詢。","健保點值長期低落，絕非僅是醫護人員的「薪情」問題，而是直接衝擊醫療第一線的國安問題。各大醫院因為健保給付不足、財務壓力沉重，不得不縮減病床、關閉病房，導致急診室人滿為患，病患苦等數日仍無法入院。護理人員因低薪、高壓而大量流失，留下來的則要肩負更沉重的護病比，無法確保醫療品質。","爰請衛福部說明：","一、現況評估與進度說明：請衛福部提供截至今年五月底，健保各總額分區的平均點值最新數據。距離0.95元的目標尚有多大差距？衛福部評估，在現行政策下，六月底是否確定無法達標？其主要癥結點為何？","二、具體達標方案與財務規劃：衛福部預計投入多少經費，以填補點值缺口至0.95元？經費來源為何？是動用健保安全準備金、爭取公務預算挹注，抑或是採取其他財務手段？請提供詳細的財務規劃與執行時程表。","三、確保醫護實質獲益之機制：如何確保點值提升所增加的給付，能確實反映在第一線醫護人員的薪資待遇與勞動條件改善上，而非僅進入醫院的「大水庫」？衛福部是否有具體監督與查核機制？"],["主席：現在作以下決議：第一、說明及詢答完畢。第二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。第三、討論事項第三案有關於身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案暨23案，另擇期繼續審查。","我還是請部長針對這個部分的辦理速度要趕一下，拜託一下，因為剛剛聽到你跟楊委員講，是引用60個小時，等於是一天2個小時，范委員提供的是一天1個小時，廖委員剛剛提供的影帶是8小時，他還覺得不足，真的是非常有問題的一件事情，我覺得你們行政機關如果趕快去做一些調整，基本上對這些有需求者應該是可以及時做出一些更好的處置，你們一個大部面對一千多名的身障朋友所提出來的個人助理，既然有這麼多的狀況，我覺得要討論及積極因應的，謝謝。另外，我們另擇期繼續討論身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案等23案。","現在先休息10分鐘，讓各位用餐，用餐完之後，我們再針對討論事項的第一案及第二案進行審查。宣讀時間還會有十幾分鐘。","現在公告：非本案相關人員可以先行離席。也就是不是第一案的相關的官員可以先行離席，我看到很多人也已經吃飽了，沒有吃飽的可以留下來吃飯，現在休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後，我們再繼續開會，謝謝。","休息（13時16分）","繼續開會（13時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a4b8e1c5eb9f5f5a4b9483b76f331b600f8dca54ed19086aa6e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:44:02 - 13:02:56","影片長度":"00:18:54","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T12:44:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T13:02:56+08:00","duration":1134,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.61596875,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.400343750000001,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.695343750000003,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.867843750000002,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.88471875,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.46659375,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.00221875,"end":22.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.11596875,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.820343750000003,"end":25.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.613468750000003,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.098468750000002,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.21221875,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.70534375,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.92034375,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.26159375,"end":64.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.87471875,"end":137.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.12721875,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.21784375000001,"end":178.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.24784375000002,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.42471875,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.22159375,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.24659375000002,"end":186.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.17471875,"end":188.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.41909375,"end":197.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.58659375000002,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.50159375,"end":224.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.10971875,"end":225.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.97034375,"end":239.65596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.12846875000002,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.70159375000003,"end":306.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.43846875,"end":308.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.65346875,"end":313.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.65284375000005,"end":319.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.99784375,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.53721875,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.43034375,"end":334.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.15159375,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.59034375000005,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.53909375,"end":345.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.46221875000003,"end":354.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.05284375,"end":348.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.49471875,"end":354.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.79409375,"end":355.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.41846875000005,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.93659375000004,"end":370.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.12971875000005,"end":367.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.94784375,"end":376.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.87596875,"end":371.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.19596875,"end":382.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.15284375000005,"end":381.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.19909375000003,"end":409.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.84034375000005,"end":413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矯正署"},{"start":140.165,"end":149.371,"text":"好 主席還有委員 針對剛才委員的一個提問就是針對東城監獄在10號發生這個雙人攻擊這個醫護人員的事件剛才委員提到 當時其實我們在整監其實都有有監護人員在戒護"},{"start":158.717,"end":184.544,"text":"但是他介護不是只有單純幾個人他整批帶過去看診大概也有數十個人那可能他站的位置大概當時可能是在這個外面的這個還看診區那真正他實際進入到診間去呢這部分我們一般介護人員並不會就是直接跟著他進去你說診間內有介護人員他另外診間還沒有我說那個看診區的地方他在等待看診區後診區後診區"},{"start":187.205,"end":213.79,"text":"好沒有關係我不跟你討論細節啦但是發生的當下整間內或許空間狹小那沒有確實裡面在整間內沒有健護人員在裡面好所以這個部分我在這裡點出來這也是未來你們要要這個檢討的事情那是不是因為那畢竟只有一坪左右大小的空間"},{"start":215.19,"end":241.102,"text":"那這樣的一個空間是不是你們要繼續如果發生這樣的事件我想空間的大小也是為了你們要檢討的一個問題那承辦這個業務的醫院其實是非常的憤慨那他們也揚言說如果就是說未來繼續這個樣子都沒有改善的話他們要退出這個服務那根據這個台東縣護理師公會"},{"start":245.018,"end":263.074,"text":"在6月15日發表一個最新的聲明他們對這個事件也表達強烈的不滿並且提出4點的具體訴求包括立即要制定入監醫療安全指引建立完善的這個醫療暴力通報與應變處理機制而且要立法將"},{"start":263.735,"end":271.098,"text":"第一線醫護人員的納入保護範圍以及這個全面檢討現行矯正機關的醫療服務契約內容以確保這個整個醫護人員的這個執行安全我想這些這些訴求不僅反映了這個基層的這個醫護人員的這個切身的需求更凸顯"},{"start":284.644,"end":305.259,"text":"長期以來矯正機關在醫療服務中這個安全保障機制的嚴重不足的這個結構性問題那我不知道說在這邊衛福部是不是在這個事件發生之後已經有立即跟這個矯正署來共同討論檢討如何改進了你們是不是已經有開會了有嗎"},{"start":310.634,"end":331.413,"text":"其實這個我們一樣是非常嚴厲的譴責這樣的一個情況我們與相關的單位我們有發表的聲明衛福部有發表的聲明部長我不是要你們衛福部發表聲明我的問題是你們有沒有跟剿政署共同來開會提出檢討"},{"start":335.185,"end":353.929,"text":"我們當時新聞稿是說我們將會與相關的單位好沒關係如果將會齁就不是出國的將會齁我希望你們立刻好不好在最短的時間內不然我跟你講這個醫療體系退出服務是很嚴重對他們受刑人權益也是一個傷害啦可以快一點嗎你們在那邊講個時間點在什麼時候之內你要完成"},{"start":362.031,"end":376.038,"text":"我們跟矯正單位馬上來進行在檢討整個作業我們本來有一個作業稀之你們是不是兩個禮拜內因為畢竟這件事情已經發生一段時間我們兩個禮拜內就馬上來召開相關的聯繫會議檢討流程然後跟委員報告"},{"start":382.461,"end":404.78,"text":"那因為根據自由時報的報導這個已經不是單一的事件因為近年來類似醫療暴力的事件在全國各地的這個監所都陸續發生例如在去年台北監獄跟高雄監獄都有類似的案例所以這個問題已經是一個就是說常年發生的問題必須我們要很嚴肅的來看待"},{"start":411.128,"end":416.72,"text":"我想聚焦在東城監獄這件令人痛心的暴力事件"},{"start":419.517,"end":440.769,"text":"在這個當然在這個部分剛剛有提到就是說在管理的部分有一個也出現很大的漏洞在監所內對於這個危險物品的管理儲存有這個重大的瑕疵那收容人他如何能夠輕易取得這個"},{"start":441.71,"end":467.808,"text":"尖尖的這個原子筆作為這個攻擊的工具也反映出說對這個高風險收容的這個風險評估還有這個無預警的機制這個是非常明顯不足的那我想在這個工會的護理師工會的這個訴求當中已經有特別強調就是說制定入監醫療安全指引這個部分那麼"},{"start":470.034,"end":494.189,"text":"那麼我們再看在特約根據全民健康保險提供的矯正機關醫療服務計畫裡面特約醫療院所必須要承擔來提供醫療服務的責任但是契約的內容幾乎都沒有提到風險保障還有安全協助的具體條款"},{"start":495.52,"end":514.478,"text":"好那這個在現實執行的這個環境的危險性其實看起來是明顯脫節同時我們在醫療法裡面24條還有106條雖然已經明定這個醫療暴力的刑事責任但是呢在這個矯正機關作為特殊"},{"start":516.2,"end":539.397,"text":"他們在矯正機關的這個特殊環境執法的保障保護的實際執行顯然是沒有辦法跟上這個法律的規範那我想在五月的時候莊惠雄委員質詢當中也有提出類似醫療暴力事件頻傳也需要法務部跟衛福部進行跨部會的合作跟系統性的解決"},{"start":541.52,"end":548.55,"text":"從第一個問題看起來你們目前都還沒有聚在一起所以我想我剛剛提的一切的一切希望你們兩個禮拜這個會議可以來啟動好"},{"start":555.526,"end":570.759,"text":"那再來我想有另外一個兩個問題就是說我們要檢討一下這個現行醫療服務的執行規範有特別矯正機關有要求這個醫療團隊連續三天設診再連續假期"},{"start":576.664,"end":597.192,"text":"的時候那每天最多分為上午跟下午兩個時段那每個時段呢原則上三個小時並且至少就是說至少就是說間隔半個小時那這項規定本來就是說要確保這個受刑人的醫療需求跟穩定"},{"start":598.573,"end":625.275,"text":"但是在執行當中也發生了嚴重的問題就是大家想一想連續三天高強度的執勤特別在介護人力有限的情況下顯著增加了醫護人員身心上的負擔也有可能就是說因為連續三天因為疲勞降低警覺性"},{"start":625.936,"end":650.981,"text":"好 所以從這個間接來提升安全風險那這個部分東城監獄的事件當中我們了解就是說這護理師正處於連續執勤的第三天那或許這個也是他就是說未能及時察覺危險因素的其中之一啦好 所以特別點出這個部分我不知道繳證署是不是也有"},{"start":652.482,"end":669.738,"text":"針對這三天的這個連續射診的規定有進行系統性的評估因為我想我的這個評估是因為如果有相關數據顯示這樣安排可以提升受診人的醫療品質然後減少疾病惡化然後降低轉診的比例"},{"start":670.399,"end":685.668,"text":"那當然這個是值得考慮但是就是說你到底有沒有充分的數據來支持能夠證明這項規定的必要性那再反過來看就是說連續執勤那導致這個醫護人員疲勞累積那也會影響這個診斷的這個"},{"start":693.093,"end":699.562,"text":"準確性跟應變能力所以這個部分我不知道你們是不是有這個數據上的一個研究統計"},{"start":702.302,"end":715.693,"text":"從我們醫療的角度來看,真的醫院本身就已經業務繁重那在年息假期又要增多這樣的一個服務,其實壓力會非常大,我想連手裡面的介護人員恐怕都"},{"start":723.806,"end":740.821,"text":"人力都不一定有辦法來配合我們希望在看門診的時候其實在我們覺得應該是不是都要為了保護醫跟護因為醫療暴力零容忍所以如果在這個叫矯正機關裡面的"},{"start":746.944,"end":770.935,"text":"的人也應該是比較更需要去關心因為他可能情緒不好或怎麼樣所以基本上我以前我們很多學生到監獄裡面去看像雲林在哪裡很多台大醫院訓練也負責很多其實他們都覺得很有意義但是無形中還是潛在的有他危險我聽了那麼久我是聽不到部長你的針對我的問題回答就是說"},{"start":775.797,"end":784.341,"text":"因為要檢討嘛 你剛剛講這個問題我們都知道啊所以我是不是在這裡 具體檢討我是希望 因為這個是矯正機關矯正機關要求的啦 我想是不是說這個部分對 我剛剛問他嘛 部長搶著回答 我也不知道"},{"start":792.864,"end":821.55,"text":"医码疲劳啊说明一下针对这个三天以上有连续假期要请这个我们的医事的服务的企业的这些医疗机构来看诊但这个根本的考量也是根据我们的一个目前我们在我想我们不谈需求啦我这里讲你有没有什么应变的方式比如说把现行规定改为这个弹性排班嘛或者是每周轮替的频率增加嘛"},{"start":822.861,"end":847.812,"text":"好對不對所以或者是你們要根據這個實際的這個醫療需求來做一個整個射診的時段的調整嗎這部分我們會跟外部再研議那目前這個根據是根據我們不得連續三天不得開封不得什麼連續三天不開封不開就是說不開什麼讓他們能夠從設防出來到工廠去洗澡運動"},{"start":849.033,"end":876.678,"text":"那尤其一到年假像明年的過年有九天的假期你不可能說都不讓他們出來洗澡或是看電視或是這個抽菸幹嘛那趁這個時間的時候因為這時間的假期太長我們也希望安排有醫療看診一定有需求的這樣的一個需求所以我們才會有這樣的一個規範請衛福部或是真的相關的醫療機構對啦現在就是你們不能只考慮到受診人的需求嘛"},{"start":877.498,"end":900.493,"text":"阿現在就是發生這樣的問題請你們一併檢討我剛剛提供幾個方法然後我已經沒有時間了但我提一個最後最嚴重的問題就是我們現在來就是說壽星人看診欠費的問題你要看一下喔這個欠費截至目前為止總共積欠了1278萬元"},{"start":904.821,"end":909.326,"text":"這個統計只是現在在裡面的受刑人欠費的統計喔他們一旦畢業出監之後那些數據就"},{"start":919.52,"end":941.668,"text":"那個一筆勾銷然後全部都要醫院自己想辦法去追討我想這個是非常不合理的醫院已經冒著生命的危險派人去監所裡面去提供服務了然後這些受刑人他無力負擔的時候"},{"start":942.938,"end":962.508,"text":"你們那出間以後 矯正署說沒有我的事啊這個是這個是天大沒有道理的如果你們這個不改的話我呼籲不用我呼籲啦 我告訴你已經有醫院的院長在跟我們講說我們要全面退出啦看你們怎麼辦啦矯正署關起來了"},{"start":965.99,"end":985.642,"text":"當然委員剛才講的這個1278萬是到今年4月底為止,就是在間的部分現在只是4月,總計到4月而已那如果這個在間的部分,我們現在目前的一些都有強制在跟他扣款而且積極在扣款,那也有聯繫他的家屬,如果他沒有錢也會聯繫他的家屬來繳款"},{"start":987.204,"end":1004.466,"text":"另外我們也有請他可以根據相關的健保法來申請這些減免或是要貸款等等的一個補助所以你的意思就是說那個醫院繼續自己去跟這些受刑人然後出監以後繼續去跟他們追討"},{"start":1006.09,"end":1020.282,"text":"我這樣啦齁我在這邊提出具體的建議第一個要求你們回頭去統計已經出間的就是說積欠的費用到底有多少我們很想看看我們替這些醫院"},{"start":1022.369,"end":1038.564,"text":"發聲一下到底還有多少錢沒有收回來我想看了以後搞不好都沒有醫院願意進去監鎖了然後我想這個其實是這個部分你們就是說有沒有"},{"start":1040.576,"end":1061.004,"text":"在這個我提出建議啦就是說矯正署你們研議能否代電受刑人的支付額啦並且針對這個無力支付的這個個案進行後續的追討啦你怎麼不能叫醫院自己去討啊醫院還要忙著救別人對不對難道醫院還要負責討債嗎"},{"start":1063.035,"end":1083.005,"text":"再來就是說能否在這個醫療服務契約當中增添這個欠費補償的機制保障這個醫療機構的權益我想我就提出這兩個建議剩下的你們就繼續研議我要在你們就是說剛剛都說了種種一切的一切我們兩個禮拜內啟動"},{"start":1086.171,"end":1108.277,"text":"這樣子的會議衛福部跟矯正署好那你們這個欠費這個我給你們幾個月的時間你們好好去研議好看要修要修哪裡你們的辦法要怎麼修就不要讓醫院進去承受這些風險出去討債你覺得他們會遇到什麼如果有人出去"},{"start":1109.591,"end":1129.385,"text":"我不知道他們未來是出監以後是什麼樣的狀況那個人頭銷也是很恐怖的好嗎好就那個你的衛福部兩個禮拜啊那個監這個這個矯正署的欠費的一個月好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1105,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩請法務部矯正署跟衛福部。"],["主席：請矯正署。衛福部要哪位？"],["陳委員瑩：部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想先看一下投影片這張圖，這部電影是1990年由已故金馬影帝陳松勇主演的電影，片名叫「我在死牢的日子」，這個影片中的畫面是一位死刑犯挾持監所護理師，雖然這是一部電影，但是沒想到這樣的畫面卻真實在監獄裡面上演，而且發生在我們臺東。","投影片是這個月的10號，東成監獄發生受刑人看診時勒住護理師的頸部，拿筆攻擊護理師的新聞。我們看一下當天發生事件時診間的示意圖，受刑人進入診間之後，坐在醫師的左邊，當時那支行兇的筆是放在醫師桌上的右手邊，那位受刑人先把醫師右手邊的筆緩緩拿到醫師的左手邊放在桌上，後來拿起筆就往護理師方向攻擊護理師，當時在診間沒有戒護人員，事件發生之後，診間走道上的兩位戒護人員就立即衝進去壓制受刑人。這裡有個重點是診間內為什麼沒有戒護人員？矯正署為什麼讓受刑人與醫護單獨處在一個空間內？這樣的戒護都沒有疏失嗎？"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：主席還有委員。針對剛才委員的一個提問，就是東成監獄在10號發生受刑人攻擊醫護人員的事件，剛才委員提到，我們在診間其實都有戒護人員在戒護，但是他們戒護的不是只有單純幾個人，他整批帶過去看診大概也有數十個人，可能他站的位置當時是在外面的候診區，受刑人實際進入到診間去，這部分我們一般戒護人員並不會就直接跟著……"],["陳委員瑩：你說診間內有戒護人員？"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：沒有，我是說候診區……"],["陳委員瑩：就走道嘛？沒關係，我不跟你討論細節，但是發生的當下，診間內或許空間狹小，確實沒有戒護人員在裡面，所以這個部分我在這裡點出來，這個也是未來你們要檢討的事情，畢竟只有一坪左右大小的空間，這樣的一個空間，你們是不是要繼續……如果發生這樣的事件，我想空間的大小也是你們未來要檢討的一個問題。"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：是。"],["陳委員瑩：承辦這個業務的醫院其實非常憤慨，他們也揚言說如果未來繼續這個樣子都沒有改善的話，他們要退出這個服務。","根據台東縣護理師護士公會在6月15日發表的最新聲明，他們對這個事件也表達強烈不滿，並且提出四點具體訴求，包括要立即制定入監醫療安全指引，建立完善的醫療暴力通報與應變處理機制，而且要立法將第一線醫護人員納入保護範圍，以及全面檢討現行矯正機關的醫療服務契約內容，以確保醫護人員的執行安全。我想這些訴求不僅反映了基層的醫護人員切身的需求，更凸顯長期以來矯正機關在醫療服務中，安全保障機制嚴重不足的結構性問題，我不知道衛福部是不是在這個事件發生之後已經有立即跟矯正署共同討論、檢討如何改進了？你們是不是已經有開會了？有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：其實我們一樣是非常嚴厲地譴責這樣的情況，衛福部也發表了聲明。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，我不是要衛福部發表聲明。我的問題是你們有沒有跟矯正署共同開會提出檢討方案？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當時新聞稿是說我們將會與相關的單位……"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係。如果「將會」，就不是唱歌的江蕙，我希望你們立刻，好不好？在最短的時間內。不然我跟你講，醫療體系退出服務是很嚴重的事，對受刑人權益也是一個傷害。"],["邱部長泰源：是、是、是。"],["陳委員瑩：可以快一點嗎？你能不能講個時間點？你要在什麼時候之內完成？"],["邱部長泰源：我們跟矯正單位馬上再檢討，我們本來有一個作業須知，我想……"],["陳委員瑩：你們是不是兩個禮拜內？因為畢竟這件事情已經發生一段時間了。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們兩個禮拜內就馬上來召開相關的聯繫會議檢討流程，然後跟委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：好，根據自由時報的報導，這已經不是單一的事件，因為近年來類似醫療暴力的事件，在全國各地的監所都陸續發生。例如去年臺北監獄跟高雄監獄都有類似的案例，所以這個已經是常年發生的問題，我們必須要很嚴肅地來看待。","我想聚焦在東成監獄這件令人痛心的暴力事件，當然在這個部分，剛剛有提到在管理的部分也出現一個很大的漏洞，在監所內對於危險物品的管理、儲存有重大的瑕疵，收容人能夠輕易取得這個尖尖的原子筆作為攻擊的工具，也反映出對高風險收容的風險評估，預警機制也是非常明顯不足的，在護理師公會的訴求當中已經有特別強調制定入監醫療安全指引這個部分。根據全民健康保險提供保險對象收容於矯正機關者醫療服務計畫裡面，特約醫療院所必須要承擔提供醫療服務的責任，但是契約的內容幾乎都沒有提到風險保障還有安全協助的具體條款，這個與現實執行環境的危險性看起來是明顯脫節。同時在醫療法第二十四條，還有第一百零六條，雖然已經明定醫療暴力的刑事責任，但是他們在矯正機關這樣的特殊環境執勤時，實際的保障、保護顯然是沒有辦法跟上法律的規範。5月的時候，莊瑞雄委員在質詢當中也有提出，類似的醫療暴力事件頻傳，也需要法務部與衛福部進行跨部會的合作和系統性的解決。","從第一個問題看起來，你們目前都還沒有聚在一起，所以就我剛剛提的一切，希望你們兩個禮拜內可以來啟動這個會議。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員瑩：另外還有兩個問題，就是我們要檢討一下現行的醫療服務執行規範，特別是矯正機關有要求醫療團隊在3天以上連續假期要設診，每天最多分為上午及下午兩個時段，每個時段原則上3個小時，並且至少要間隔半個小時。這項規定本來是要確保受刑人的醫療需求及穩定，但是在執行當中也發生了嚴重的問題。大家想想，3天以上連續假期要設診的高強度執勤，特別在戒護人力有限的情況下，顯著增加醫護人員身心上的負擔，他們也有可能因為3天以上連續假期要執勤，導致疲勞，降低警覺性，間接提升安全風險。","在東成監獄的事件當中，我們了解，這個護理師正處於連續執勤的第3天，或許這也是他未能及時察覺危險的其中一個因素，所以我特別點出這個部分。我不知道矯正署是不是也有針對這個3天以上連續假期要設診的規定進行系統性的評估？要有這個評估是因為如果有相關數據顯示這樣安排可以提升受刑人的醫療品質、減少疾病惡化、降低轉診的比率，當然這個是值得考慮的，但是你到底有沒有充分的數據能夠支持、證明這項規定的必要性？再反過來看，連續執勤導致醫護人員疲勞累積，也會影響診斷的準確性及應變能力。我不知道這個部分你們是不是有數據上的研究統計？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，從醫療的角度來看，醫院本身真的就已經業務繁重，在連續假期又要多增加這樣的服務……"],["陳委員瑩：對，而且害他們都沒有假了。"],["邱部長泰源：其實壓力會非常大，我想連所裡面的戒護人員恐怕人力都不一定有辦法來配合，我們……"],["陳委員瑩：這些都需要檢討。"],["邱部長泰源：我們也希望在看門診的時候都要保護醫及護，因為醫療暴力零容忍……"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯！"],["邱部長泰源：所以矯正機關裡面的人員應該更需要去關心，因為他可能情緒不好或怎麼樣，基本上，以前我們有很多學生到監獄裡面去看診，像雲林等等，臺大醫院分院也負責很多，其實他們都覺得很有意義，但是無形中還是有潛在的危險性。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！但聽了那麼久，我聽不到部長有針對我的問題回答，因為要檢討，你剛剛講的這個問題我們都知道，所以我是不是在這裡具體……"],["邱部長泰源：要檢討，但因為這個是矯正機關……"],["陳委員瑩：對，我是問矯正機關……"],["邱部長泰源：矯正機關要求的，所以這個部分是不是……"],["陳委員瑩：對，我剛剛是問他們，但部長搶著回答，我也不知道你是怎樣，你也疲勞了！"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：跟委員說明一下，針對有3天以上連續假期要請我們醫事服務契約的醫療機構來看診，根本的考量也是根據目前我們在……"],["陳委員瑩：我想我們不談需求，我這裡要講的是你有沒有什麼應變的方式，比如把現行規定改為彈性排班，或者是每週輪替的頻率增加，對不對？或者是你們要根據實際的醫療需求來做整個設診時段的調整？"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：這個部分我們會跟衛福部再來研議，目前這個是根據我們不得連續3天不開封，為了……"],["陳委員瑩：不得什麼？"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：連續3天不開封。"],["陳委員瑩：不開什麼？"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：就是讓他們能夠從舍房出來到工廠去洗澡、運動，尤其遇到連假，像明年的過年有9天的假期，我們不可能都不讓他們出來洗澡，或是看電視、抽菸等等，因為這個假期的時間太長，趁這個時間，我們也希望安排醫療看診，一定有這樣的需求，所以我們才會有這樣的規範，請衛福部或是相關的醫療機構來……"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！但你們不能只考慮到受刑人的需求，現在就是發生這樣的問題，請你們一併檢討，我剛剛提供了幾個方法。","我已經沒有時間了，但我提一個最嚴重的問題，就是受刑人看診欠費的問題，截至目前為止，總共積欠了1,278萬元，這個統計只是現在在裡面的受刑人欠費的統計，他們一旦畢業出監之後，那些數據就一筆勾銷，全部都要醫院自己想辦法去追討，我想這個是非常不合理的！醫院已經派人冒著生命危險去監所裡面提供服務了，結果這些受刑人無力負擔，出監以後，矯正署又覺得事不關己。這個是天大的沒有道理！如果你們這個不改的話，我要呼籲，也不用我呼籲，我告訴你，已經有醫院的院長在跟我們講要全面退出，看你們怎麼辦啦！"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：委員剛才講的這個在監部分的1,278萬是到今年4月底為止。"],["陳委員瑩：現在只是統計到4月而已喔。"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：有關在監的部分，我們目前都有強制在跟他扣款，而且積極在扣款，也有聯繫他的家屬，如果他沒有錢，也會聯繫他的家屬來繳款。另外，我們也有告訴他可以根據相關的健保法申請這些減免，或是要貸款等等的補助。"],["陳委員瑩：所以，你的意思就是說，受刑人出監以後醫院自己繼續去跟他們追討？我在這邊提出具體的建議，第一個，我要求你們回頭統計已經出監的人積欠的費用到底有多少？我們很想看看，我們替這些醫院發聲一下，到底還有多少錢沒有收回來？我想看了以後搞不好都沒有醫院願意進去監所了。這個部分我提出建議，矯正署研議能否代墊受刑人的自付額，並且針對無力支付的個案進行後續的追討，你總不能叫醫院自己去討啊！醫院還要忙著救別人，對不對？難道醫院還要負責討債嗎？再來，能否在醫療服務契約當中增列欠費補償的機制，保障醫療機構的權益。我提出這兩個建議，剩下的你們就繼續研議。剛剛都說了，種種的一切，我們兩個禮拜內請衛福部跟矯正署啟動這樣的會議，至於欠費這個議題比較傷腦筋，我給你們一個月的時間，你們好好去研議，看要修哪裡以及你們的辦法要怎麼修，不要讓醫院進去承受這些風險，要出去討債，你覺得他們會遇到什麼？如果有人出去，我不知道他們出監以後是什麼樣的狀況，討債也是很恐怖的，好嗎？"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：好。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員瑩：衛福部就給你們兩個禮拜，矯正署欠費的議題給一個月時間。謝謝。"],["蘇主任秘書坤銘：謝謝委員。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊曜委員詢答，請準時啊。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91abd01ff1c75922a1ab9483b76f331b600afb45025fabe4623f5ff160f27f5ee205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:34:45 - 12:43:42","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T12:34:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T12:43:42+08:00","duration":537,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.91221875,"end":5.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.71784375,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.26534375,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.767218750000001,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.60159375,"end":20.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.24159375,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.78846875,"end":169.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.11409375000002,"end":190.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.92971875,"end":190.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.56659375,"end":235.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.39909375000002,"end":256.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.47596875,"end":365.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.99909375000004,"end":513.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.42346875,"end":513.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.3303437500001,"end":526.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.25846875,"end":515.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4428437500001,"end":533.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.8303437500001,"end":528.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.39096875,"end":531.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.36971875,"end":533.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.06971875,"end":537.1284687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.919,"end":6.48,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 有請部長來 請部長部長好部長你好今天我們是針對藏權法會處理博愛座的部分改為優先席因為這個部分我也有提案權力支持我想會是一個好的開始我相信相關的問題衛福部也會排除"},{"start":30.169,"end":44.413,"text":"我針對這個帳權法想要針對個人助理的制度還有帳權法如何保障自立生活希望衛福部能夠更加努力的爭取因為部長你知道上一次大幅修改是2011年1月10號"},{"start":46.914,"end":68.487,"text":"那到今天14年沒有大休那邱部長還是邱委員的時候應該記得我們上一屆就是遇到衛福部的版本跟我們那個帳權團體的落差很大那我知道衛福部到現在都還沒有準備好那我憂心忡忡所以今天就再次來質詢這題"},{"start":70.548,"end":81.661,"text":"我想我們目前都知道障權法就是裡面障礙者申請個人助理的法源依據是第50條第9款那當年這個條文其實就有很多的問題因為條文限制要促進社會參與那導致剛剛我們召委也有講到就是說"},{"start":91.232,"end":114.147,"text":"他在現實上個人助理服務的內容常常被限縮解釋不管是社會參與甚至把個人協助的服務包裹在自立生活的概念裡面解決沒有辦法讓障礙者完整自覺的掌控服務也就是其實目前我們這整個法落實的情況完全不符合CRPD的第19條條約個人助理的問題很多可是去年8月我們部長還沒有當"},{"start":120.911,"end":150.171,"text":"已經 您當部長了嗎 那個時候七點半 有那可是那個版本我不知道可能會是前一屆部長任內完成的所以去年八月公告的版本預告草案完全沒有處理這一條也讓障礙者非常的失望那所以我們今天對未來的衛福部送到行政院送到立法院的版本期待很高那我就先講原來的問題那法律因為年久失修不完整結果障礙者"},{"start":151.151,"end":168.717,"text":"等於是被迫走上訴訟的路2023年新北市的障礙者遇解那他個人助理時數有60小時的上限平均每天只有兩小時沒有辦法讓他符合我們法律的尊嚴的自立生活所以他告了新北市社會局勝訴"},{"start":170.497,"end":189.708,"text":"那判決出入之後各縣市核定個人助理時數雖然沒有明文上線可是實際上核定的情況其實很不樂觀那以下是我們辦公室這個PPT好像沒有顯示出來我這邊螢幕是壞掉了嗎主席可以暫停一下"},{"start":190.969,"end":217.019,"text":"有了那這個部分我要先講一下也請我們召委一起監督我們衛福部自己沒有統計這個是民間團體排志盟自己調查的到底申請的需求多少核定了多少我們衛福部自己沒有叫縣市地方政府統計這個是他們自己去做調查的他們問了57個障礙者申請個人助理的需求你看從左邊來看"},{"start":220.041,"end":234.877,"text":"720小時就是重症24小時的那日本跟韓國都有開放可是在台灣720這位第一號的被問的被訪問的只有被核定5小時核定需求比1%你看到的情況是這樣"},{"start":236.485,"end":256.457,"text":"只要申請然後我們右下角這邊是實際來看720申請的就核定時數5小時610小時的核定125小時那上面是台字盟統計的你發現我們看一下右上這個申請時數越高核定比例越低"},{"start":257.558,"end":273.825,"text":"我想朝偉非常的了解我們雲林這邊的身障者障礙者的家庭通常會申請這麼高的因為他這個都要被核定嘛就是重症那日本韓國都有全日24小時就會所謂申請720的我看我們台灣我看衛福部如果統計的話等一下我會要求衛福部去特定幾乎應該沒有核定成功的啦那為什麼日本韓國可以有我們台灣卻沒有那這個部分"},{"start":285.509,"end":311.11,"text":"剛剛召委也很關心這個問題那根據我們辦公室跟這些障礙團體的了解就是因為時數用不完因為微服部過去會說時數還有剩啊用不完是為什麼幾個原因第一個各住安排限制多而且有些地方政府規定你一個月前要提前預約今天我們如果就是說叫大家能夠預估自己一個月後的生活狀況的話你就會發現"},{"start":313.792,"end":338.623,"text":"困難很高尤其是精神障礙者幾乎沒有辦法就那個個人的計畫而且服務事項各種受限障礙者還不能自己選定個住以我知道的日本的制度他是把錢發給障礙者自己依照政府的規定的哪些是個人助理的資格可以自己選擇你今天如果還跟某些人不合的時候那配合不佳"},{"start":339.503,"end":365.084,"text":"別無選擇所以我們現在台灣的這個各住制度地方政府幾乎都沒有以障礙者為核心那這也是違反CRPD的精神那你可以看到就以2024年全國1326個人申請平均核定的時數30個小時等於是一天一小時這個比一個長者的長照服務還低我想我們全國的"},{"start":366.058,"end":388.278,"text":"障礙者絕對真實如果能夠需用的話不會是這樣那所以才會造成時數使用率這麼的低那這幾個都是目前制度的問題所以歸納來講因為時間的緣故就是我認為目前的申請制度就有五大問題第一個資格限制如果今天有聘僱看護者"},{"start":389.099,"end":407.528,"text":"看護者不是也需要休息嗎那你為什麼限制他都不行還有零有其他的津貼者也不行未考慮緊急個別需求像我剛講的精神障礙者他沒有辦法在一個月前做計畫等等那方式也是那對撰寫申請計畫書不利另外內容剛剛昭緯的質詢也有講到各縣市認可服務事項不同嚴重影響核定結果第四點障礙者"},{"start":416.673,"end":431.67,"text":"無法參與補助審議會議表達個案需求那就讓一群不知道是怎麼樣的專家只上核定那這部分也不符合CRPD的精神應該要讓審議的過程中有一定比例的障礙者一起參與"},{"start":432.09,"end":450.208,"text":"最後沒有辦法申訴最後我們看到新北的那位據說最後幾乎是要有律師協助就是行政訴訟訴願那這讓他們申訴的成本非常的高這都是制度的問題所以我就五個要求最重要時間的緣故我想第四點"},{"start":450.768,"end":471.369,"text":"我希望我們衛福部你至少做障礙者申請時數跟核定結果的統計進行分析那再來我們修法的時候就可以依照這個時數來講那如果要增加個人助理的話我知道衛福部擔心預算過高可是你們統計出來的跟我們看到日本韓國的都不一樣"},{"start":472.17,"end":496.455,"text":"以東京的人數2000萬接近台灣那他們申請就是24小時的人數是大概我知道的是400人左右所以不會像你們擔心的一個天文數字所以這部分台灣在經濟上我們已經是跟日韓並駕齊驅制度上不應該讓我們的障礙者無法符合CRPD的國際精神那我想"},{"start":496.795,"end":511.56,"text":"我們一切要務實沒有統計就沒有發言權我們一切都應該科學來規劃台灣能夠做到多少這五點那可以一個月內給我書面報告然後希望你們能夠納入你們的版本嗎如果評估OK的話好嗎邱部長我想"},{"start":514.461,"end":532.996,"text":"非常謝謝委員提的這麼重要的建議而且很具體我想我們一定會一個一個來檢討一個月給書面報告給書面報告也盡量能夠納入修法所有的未還委員一份好嗎沒問題好 那請周偉跟我一起監督感謝 謝謝邱部長謝謝謝委員一個月你對他們太寬鬆了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時34分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長，你好。今天我們是針對障權法，會處理博愛座的部分改為優先席，因為這個部分我也有提案，全力支持，我想會是一個好的開始，我相信相關的問題衛福部也會排除。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["范委員雲：我想要針對障權法對個人助理服務的制度，還有障權法如何保障自立生活，希望衛福部能夠更加努力地爭取。因為部長你知道上一次大幅修改是2011年1月10號，到今天14年沒有大修，邱部長還是邱委員的時候，應該記得我們上一屆，就是遇到衛福部的版本跟我們障權團體的落差很大，我知道衛福部到現在都還沒有準備好，我憂心忡忡，所以今天就再次質詢這一題。","我們目前都知道障權法裡面，障礙者申請個人助理服務的法源依據是第五十條第九款，當年這個條文其實就有很多問題，因為條文限制要促進社會參與，導致剛剛召委也有講到，就是在現實上個人助理服務的內容常常被限縮解釋，不管是社會參與，甚至把個人協助的服務包裹在自立生活的概念裡面解決，沒有辦法讓障礙者完整自覺地掌控服務，其實目前這整個法落實的情況，完全不符合CRPD（身心障礙者權利公約）第十九條，個人助理的問題很多，可是去年8月那個時候，您當部長了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：去年8月？有。"],["范委員雲：可是那個版本我不知道，可能是前一屆部長任內完成的，所以去年8月公告的版本，預告草案完全沒有處理這一條，也讓障礙者非常地失望，所以我們今天對未來衛福部送到行政院、行政院送到立法院的版本期待很高。我就先講原來的問題，法律因為年久失修不完整，障礙者等於是被迫走上訴訟的路，2023年新北市的障礙者玉姐，他個人助理時數有60小時的上限，平均每天只有2小時，沒有辦法讓他符合我們法律的尊嚴地自立生活，所以他告了新北市社會局勝訴。判決出爐之後，各縣市核定個人助理時數雖然沒有明文上限，可是實際上核定的情況很不樂觀。","這個部分我要先講一下，也請我們召委一起監督，這個衛福部自己沒有統計耶！這是民間團體台自盟自己調查的，到底申請的需求多少？核定了多少？衛福部自己沒有叫縣市地方政府統計，這個是他們自己去做調查的，他們問了57個障礙者申請個人助理的需求。你從投影片左邊來看，720小時就是重症需要24小時服務了，日本跟韓國都有開放，可是在臺灣720小時第1號被訪問的結果，只有被核定5小時，核定需求比1%，你看到的情況是這樣，只要申請，然後投影片右下角，實際來看申請720小時的，結果核定時數5小時；申請610小時的，核定125小時，上面是台自盟統計的。我們看一下右上角，發現申請時數越高，核定比例越低。我想召委也非常地了解雲林縣的障礙者家庭，通常會申請這麼高的時數，因為它這個都要被核定是重症，日本、韓國都有全日24小時就會申請所謂720小時的服務，我看我們臺灣，衛福部如果有統計的話，等一下我會要求衛福部去統計，幾乎應該沒有核定成功的，為什麼日本、韓國可以有，臺灣卻沒有？","這個部分，剛剛召委也很關心這個問題，根據我們辦公室跟這些障礙團體的了解，就是因為時數用不完，衛福部過去會說時數還有剩。用不完是為什麼？幾個原因：第一個，個助安排限制多，而且有些地方政府規定，一個月前要提前預約，今天我們如果叫大家能夠預估自己一個月後的生活狀況的話，你就會發現困難很高，尤其是精神障礙者，就個人的計畫幾乎沒有辦法，而且服務事項有各種受限，障礙者還不能自己選定個助。依我知道的日本的制度，他是把錢發給障礙者自己，依照政府規定哪些是個人助理的資格，可以自己選擇。如果今天你還跟某些人不合的時候，配合不佳、別無選擇，所以現在臺灣的個助制度，地方政府幾乎都沒有以障礙者為核心，這也是違反CRPD的精神。你可以看到就以2024年全國1,326個人申請，平均核定的時數30個小時，等於是一天一小時，這比一個長者的長照服務還低，我想全國障礙者真實如果能夠需用的話，絕對不會是這樣，所以才會造成時數使用率這麼的低，這幾個都是目前制度的問題。","所以歸納來講，因為時間的緣故，我認為目前的申請制度就有5大問題。第一個是資格限制，如果今天有聘僱看護者，看護者不是也需要休息嗎？你為什麼限制他都不行？還有領有其他津貼者也不行。未考慮緊急個別需求，像我剛剛講的精神障礙者沒有辦法在一個月前做計畫等等；方式也是，對撰寫申請計畫書不利；另外是內容，剛剛召委質詢也有講到各縣市認定服務事項不同，嚴重影響核定結果；第四點，障礙者無法參與補助審議會議表達個案需求，就讓一群不知道是怎麼樣的專家紙上核定，這部分也不符合CRPD的精神，應該要讓審議的過程中，有一定比例的障礙者一起參與。最後是沒有辦法申訴！所以我們看到新北的那位，最後幾乎是要有律師協助行政訴訟、訴願，這讓他們申訴的成本非常高，這都是制度的問題。","所以我就五個要求，時間的緣故，最重要是第四點，我希望衛福部至少就障礙者申請時數跟核定結果的統計進行分析，後續修法的時候就可以依照這個時數來講。如果要增加個人助理的話，我知道衛福部擔心預算過高，可是你們統計出來的跟我們看到日本、韓國的都不一樣，以東京的人數2,000萬，接近臺灣，他們申請24小時的人數，我知道的大概是400人左右，所以不會像你們擔心的是一個天文數字。臺灣在經濟上已經是跟日、韓並駕齊驅，制度上不應該讓障礙者無法符合CRPD的國際精神。我想我們一定要務實，沒有統計就沒有發言權，我們一切都應該根據科學來規劃臺灣能夠做到多少。這五點，可以一個月內給我書面報告？然後如果評估OK的話，希望能夠納入你們的版本，好嗎？邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：非常謝謝委員提這麼重要的建議，而且很具體，我們一定會一個一個來檢討，一個月給書面報告，也盡量能夠納入修法的參考。"],["范委員雲：書面報告也給所有的衛環委員一份，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["范委員雲：請召委跟我一起監督，感謝。謝謝邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：一個月，你對他們太寬鬆了，應該是兩個星期內。好，謝謝。","接下來請葉元之委員。葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","請陳瑩委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91aa600aa7780cbdd6bb9483b76f331b600afb45025fabe462394876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:21:07 - 12:34:08","影片長度":"00:13:01","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T12:21:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T12:34:08+08:00","duration":781,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":6.105968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.764093750000001,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.695343750000003,"end":43.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.58534375,"end":48.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.52971875,"end":92.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.43409375,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.78846875,"end":135.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.33471875,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.08659375000002,"end":235.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.09534375,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.52971875000003,"end":241.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.73596875,"end":252.70034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.78471875000002,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.03346875000003,"end":258.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.37034375,"end":258.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.82596875,"end":273.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.57909375,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.36346875000004,"end":279.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.68346875000003,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.71721875000003,"end":281.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.93596875000003,"end":284.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.65846875,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.07846875,"end":344.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.96784375000004,"end":354.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.78971875,"end":362.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.02909375,"end":376.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.09034375000005,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.63034375,"end":377.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.50784375,"end":398.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.15721875,"end":381.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.56784375,"end":412.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.06784375,"end":439.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.59096875,"end":444.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.99596875000003,"end":440.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.67471875,"end":488.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.76034375,"end":502.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.84784375000004,"end":496.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.88159375000004,"end":498.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.70346875,"end":503.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.12534375,"end":524.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.5734687500001,"end":541.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.81971875,"end":551.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.7040937500001,"end":556.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.75846875,"end":557.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.8172187499999,"end":558.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.0828437499999,"end":559.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.37784375,"end":605.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.37096875,"end":612.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.0828437499999,"end":626.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.65471875,"end":631.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.17784375,"end":626.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.51034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謝謝主席 那先請長照司 謝謝來 請祝市長"},{"start":14.739,"end":43.117,"text":"委员好好 司长我想要快速跟您讨论关于照专的事情我上次已经来谈过因为我们看到长照3.0即将上路那我之前跟你讨论过他们的个案量其实远远超过这个相关数字当时你给我的回应是说我们有考虑要把照专从临时人员改为政府聘雇人员已经改了对 已经改了那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨"},{"start":43.937,"end":62.877,"text":"當我們要做到這件事情的時候我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對好這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那"},{"start":63.217,"end":92.357,"text":"我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度如何補足人力如何把相關配套做好讓所有被服務被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專A個管他們其實承擔了非常大的工作量跟業務量"},{"start":94.157,"end":116.343,"text":"跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年"},{"start":116.963,"end":137.139,"text":"那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣的一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會"},{"start":140.562,"end":161.907,"text":"讓更多人來應徵嗎可是你再看一下這張投影片的最下方叫做充實照顧人力確實我沒有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整然後或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的禁用推動照顧分級派工這些我都非常認同確實可以改善現場的狀況但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端就是我剛說的"},{"start":162.947,"end":183.124,"text":"其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以"},{"start":184.125,"end":209.787,"text":"立刻改善現場的狀況先不管長照3.0上路之後那光是現在狀況我都還是很擔心那可不可以因為我時間有限我不要耽誤其他委員時間我想我的具體要求非常明確我要持續跟長照司討論我希望我們在座長照無縫接軌從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌我們要必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的"},{"start":210.467,"end":235.19,"text":"否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性"},{"start":236.321,"end":258.155,"text":"有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境"},{"start":258.895,"end":274.924,"text":"是我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了"},{"start":275.644,"end":291.031,"text":"因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個4千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府邀請一些"},{"start":291.591,"end":296.738,"text":"願意參與公民社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好"},{"start":308.973,"end":329.719,"text":"好 謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好 接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家署我其實要我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分我們其實也經早過社家署開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是"},{"start":331.88,"end":347.174,"text":"第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度"},{"start":355.956,"end":381.221,"text":"還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前"},{"start":381.801,"end":397.717,"text":"那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了"},{"start":398.678,"end":421.408,"text":"學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見"},{"start":422.068,"end":437.963,"text":"因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議"},{"start":439.705,"end":453.316,"text":"所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對跟委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓"},{"start":458.18,"end":486.249,"text":"身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差"},{"start":486.969,"end":514.863,"text":"那這個部分的救濟那對不起我們我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的這個行政救濟他都可以都可以來使用好那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日"},{"start":515.323,"end":540.902,"text":"提供跨区服务上次我有问到这个事情我不确定相关进度但时间有限你们可以再给我们后续的结论吗如果你们有进行相关会议的话好不好好谢谢下一张一样是社家属其实关于合理调整的部分我们也发现了很多问题而且这些问题可能还蛮棘手的第一个是合理调整的部分目前第一个问题是看卫福部的规划目前你们是要求这些机关自行"},{"start":542.103,"end":557.577,"text":"進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行"},{"start":561.434,"end":585.459,"text":"我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有定一個各機關去定定合理調整一個職各機關去定指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去定相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有小協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去定他的一關一些合理調整的具體的做法"},{"start":585.879,"end":612.689,"text":"那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域它會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在它的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了"},{"start":613.169,"end":639.316,"text":"有 我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題 屋府部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部 勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有"},{"start":639.696,"end":662.022,"text":"那教育部也在嚴定中這個我們會再跟你們說實在請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整他可能造成一種歧視"},{"start":662.782,"end":674.579,"text":"可是当时没有成功入法可是我认为在身障权法里面如果我们没有积极的态度我觉得其实是不合理的那如果我们后续还要修所谓的反歧视法我认为这个事情要一并考虑"},{"start":677.077,"end":697.553,"text":"目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整"},{"start":699.434,"end":728.268,"text":"或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論"},{"start":728.928,"end":757.445,"text":"看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年"},{"start":761.133,"end":776.817,"text":"困境會是什麼?這個部分的話,因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度好,這就是我擔心,如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快,否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來,好嗎?謝謝主席,不好意思超過時間,謝謝好,謝謝陳委員的詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1029,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時21分）謝謝主席。先請長照司，謝謝。"],["主席：請祝司長。"],["祝司長健芳：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：司長，我想要快速跟您討論關於照專的事情，我上次已經來談過，因為我們看到長照3.0即將上路，我之前有跟你討論過他們的個案量其實遠遠超過這個相關數字，當時你給我的回應是，我們有考慮要把照專從臨時人員改為政府聘僱人員。"],["祝司長健芳：已經改了。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，已經改了。可是我想跟你說，長照3.0之後，目前我們有一個很重要的規劃叫做醫療長照無縫接軌，當我們要做到這件事情的時候，我們其實需要第一線的照專協助我們對不對？好，這個您非常的清楚，結果很多照專看到這個就非常緊張，立刻來跟我們陳情，因為除了我們剛剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外，其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的，當然是有很多人不願意來做這個工作，我們現在很擔心，假設醫療長照無縫接軌，在後續的推動上，我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實？而不是最後所有工作loading都落在照專跟A個管身上。因為我們現在不確定你們後續的規劃跟進度，如何補足人力、如何把相關配套做好，讓所有被服務、被照顧的人都有意識到中間這個照專、A個管他們其實承擔非常大的工作量跟業務量。"],["祝司長健芳：跟委員說明，我們在6月10號其實也針對不管是照專還是A的人力問題，有找了縣市政府來討論，我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面，也針對照專的聘用必須要有兩年長照工作年資這個部分，在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年，這個部分也都跟地方政府已經有達成共識，等於照專跟A拉齊為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣一個工作，對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁，可以讓更多的人能夠投入這份工作。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格，就有機會讓更多人來應徵嗎？可是你再看一下這張投影片最下方叫做充實照顧人力，確實我們有想到照服員的勞動條件要調整，或者是擴大外籍中階技術人力的進用，推動照顧分級派工，這些我都非常認同，確實可以改善現場的狀況，但是我們卻沒有想到照顧人力這一端，就是我剛剛說的，其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量，那個是一般人沒有意識到的，那我們如何調整？可是我覺得剛剛你所說的從兩年年資變成一年年資，或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員，勞動權益更有保障，我覺得都可能還不足以立刻改善現場的狀況，先不管長照3.0上路之後，光是現在的狀況，我都還是很擔心。因為我時間有限，我不要耽誤其他委員時間，我想我的具體要求非常明確，我要持續跟長照司討論，我希望我們在做長照無縫接軌，從病人出院要回到社區當中那個無縫接軌，我們必須同步確保照專跟A個管的量能是真的可以負荷的，否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊，病人會抱怨，醫院可能也會抱怨，不要到最後所有抱怨都到他們身上，如同我剛剛說的，我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略到這一群人。再來，我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個管開會討論，聽取第一線基層人員的聲音？當然有你們相關部會在，我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性，有機會嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題開過會。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎？因為你請縣市政府的承辦，加上中央的承辦，但你沒有足夠的第一線工作人員，其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話、他們在個案拜訪，我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境。"],["祝司長健芳：是。我們邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心這些照專、照督，當然A的部分因為是地方政府特約的單位，所以是由地方政府……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你覺得不需要再召開，相關意見都很夠了？"],["祝司長健芳：因為所有的照專跟A個管，全國的人數加起來有四千多人。"],["陳委員培瑜：我沒有說找這麼多人，當然不可能，我當然不可能要你們找這麼多人來，就像我們以前在教文，我們要聽取基層教師的聲音，我們有相關的工會或相關的團體，或是地方政府有邀請一些願意參與公民社會服務的基層工作人員，如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了，那這樣，沒關係，你們會後把相關會議資料給我。"],["祝司長健芳：是，好。"],["陳委員培瑜：讓我確定一下你們真的有蒐集到足夠多的聲音，反映現場的狀況，如果沒有，我們後續再來討論，好不好？"],["祝司長健芳：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情，但是更多改善現場狀況其實非常重要。謝謝司長。","接下來請社家署，我之前在跟社家署討論相關議題的時候，就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分，我們其實已經找過社家署開會，因為時間有限，我就直接討論到下一個問題。第一個，社會局處進行自立生活需求評估時候的相關法源依據，其實這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候就有跟社家署積極討論，也有提醒你們，對不對？"],["周代理署長道君：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何？第一個，身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度，還有研議個人助理服務原則的相關文件，我們之前有請你們帶回去研議，不知道現在研議的進度是什麼。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，有關自立生活需求評估的部分，我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論，在今年……"],["陳委員培瑜：是在5月8號之後嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：對不起，在5月8號之前。"],["陳委員培瑜：之前？好。"],["周代理署長道君：是在之前，我們跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論，我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制，這個申請的機制裡面希望申請機制的人員包括學者專家、身心障礙團體代表、政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣多元的組成，能夠充分地在個案評估需求的時候有一個比較周延的認定。"],["陳委員培瑜：我在5月8號的質詢是跟您請教說，目前所有這些審查制度裡面，我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見，因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣、就是這樣、就是這樣，最後的結果他們好像也只能默默地接受，沒有後續的救濟、沒有後續相關的流程，所以我們在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議，如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議，所以5月8號之後，其實並沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤，對不對？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，之後針對這部分我們沒有全面性的開會，但是個別的縣市，我們現在知道已經有跟部分個別縣市開始討論，怎麼樣讓身心障礙者在審查會議過程中能夠陳述意見這個部分能夠納進來，像臺中，就我們所知應該是已經能夠開始做這樣的處理，後續其他縣市的部分，我們會繼續協調和推動。另外在審核結果部分的時數，即使是經過當事人的意見陳述，也許核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請還是會有一些落差，這個部分的救濟，我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的機制，當然後續包括一般的行政救濟，他都可以使用。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果有你剛剛說的這些資料，會後再拜託提供給我們辦公室，我們確保一下相關的進度。還有之前有討論到現行的長照跨區，可不可以從月份跨區進階到以週或是以日提供跨區服務？上次我有問到這個事情，我不確定相關進度，但時間有限，你們可以再給我們後續的結論嗎？如果你們有進行相關會議的話，好不好？謝謝。"],["周代理署長道君：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來一樣是社家署，其實關於合理調整的部分，我們也發現了很多問題，而且這些問題可能還蠻棘手的。關於合理調整的部分，第一個問題是看衛福部的規劃，目前你們是要求這些機關自行進行合理調整，然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限，我們目前其實看不大出來，我不確定你們這邊的進度是什麼。"],["周代理署長道君：針對合理調整的部分，目前……"],["陳委員培瑜：因為你們要機關自行進行。"],["周代理署長道君：是。我們對於合理調整的部分，現在是各機關去訂指引的原則，給各個目的事業主管機關去訂相關的合理調整的指引。所以這個部分，我們大概也有協調各目的事業主管機關怎麼樣去訂它的一些合理調整的具體作法，這個部分的話，怎麼樣去把裡面的細節納進去，當然，個別的場域會有一些個別狀況的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["周代理署長道君：那個就是由各目的事業主管機關在它的指引出來，然後讓各個場域去根據自己場域的狀況，視個別身心障礙者的需求做相關的調整。"],["陳委員培瑜：衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引，讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了？"],["周代理署長道君：有，我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則，就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候，我們在更上面有一個通案的原則。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候，相關進度或相關的問題，衛福部這邊也都會提供協助嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：目前我們已知的，像法務部、勞動部、人事行政總處都已經有了，教育部也在研訂中。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個我們會再跟你們索資，再請你們告訴我們。第二個，我想問目前草案上只有說合理調整，可是假設機關沒有積極動作，或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例、過度負擔，後續會有什麼結果？你們會如何協助？因為過去在修特教法的時候，我們就希望如果沒有合理調整，它可能造成一種歧視，當時沒有成功入法，可是我認為在身障權法裡面，如果我們沒有積極的態度，我覺得其實是不合理的，如果我們後續還要修所謂的反歧視法，我認為這個事情要一併考慮。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前我們在身權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去固定相關的救濟措施，但是現行身權法裡面包括當事人去做相關申訴的制度，如果在職場或相關場域裡面，它做一個不到位的調整，或者是對於調整的幅度是不是有超過場域能夠負擔的程度等等，這個部分他還是可以依照身權法現有的申訴機制來做處理。另外，如果合理調整的程度是達不到，當然如同剛剛委員所提示的，我們會配合行政院現在在研訂中的反歧視法，這個部分我們會併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：看起來是大工程，我覺得時間有限，我們就之後一起努力。","最後一個提問，在特教法第十條第四項規定，中央主管機關應針對各教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引。可是特教法修法到現在已經兩年，可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來，我只是想要追問後續的進度跟規劃。"],["周代理署長道君：就我們所知道，目前教育部是在研擬中。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那衛福部如何協助他們？"],["周代理署長道君：進度的部分，我們會跟教育部一起來配合。"],["陳委員培瑜：你們有訂一個deadline嗎？因為其實已經兩年了，困境會是什麼？"],["周代理署長道君：這個部分我們也會搭配這一次身權法的進度跟教育部一起來做協調。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這就是我擔心，如果要搭配身權法，當然後續我們修法進度要加快，否則這邊也會卡住，我就一併先把問題提出來，好嗎？","謝謝主席，不好意思超過時間，謝謝。"],["周代理署長道君：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的詢答，謝謝代理署長。","委員會在這邊報告：我們的聽打員還有手語員可以先用餐沒關係，但是我知道你們的手都要動，因為我們委員會會開到所有委員詢答完畢，我怕你們第一次來會嚇到，因為這邊是血汗型的，你們可以先用餐，應該還有剩下3位委員，所以再請各位委員控制時間，抱歉！","接下來請蔡易餘委員。蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","請范雲委員來做詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162790","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162790","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91ae4b2d9c90d452e1db9483b76f331b600afb45025fabe46231b9d0562b452a15f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:07:15 - 12:20:58","影片長度":"00:13:43","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T12:07:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T12:20:58+08:00","duration":823,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.493468750000002,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.31596875,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.83909375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.01096875,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.078468750000003,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.21346875,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.000968750000002,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.85471875,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.87971875,"end":50.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.92596875,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.75534375,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.69846875,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.28471875000001,"end":89.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.75096875,"end":96.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.12971875000001,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.14971875,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.57971875000001,"end":117.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.88596875,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.83659375000002,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.67159375,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.03846875000002,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.50034375,"end":159.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.15409375000002,"end":157.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.07346875000002,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.79909375,"end":162.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.79034375,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.16096875000002,"end":169.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.42221875,"end":197.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.31659375,"end":217.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.85346875000002,"end":222.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.24096875,"end":235.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.28534375,"end":274.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.92471875,"end":282.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.61534375,"end":287.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.95221875000004,"end":321.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.76971875000004,"end":347.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.68534375,"end":369.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.66971875,"end":375.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.77846875,"end":374.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.61784375,"end":375.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.90471875000003,"end":376.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.42784375,"end":386.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.90721875,"end":420.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.39971875000003,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.28784375000004,"end":472.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.91909375000006,"end":483.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.51221875000005,"end":494.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.78909375,"end":507.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.52971875000003,"en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謝謝主席我們還是請邱部長請部長"},{"start":20.089,"end":44.591,"text":"委員好部長好所以今天雖然修法的內容看起來簡單可是如何能夠再落實如何讓它更精進真的是需要大家共同來努力那針對今天我們這個老土法第48條的修正條文裡面我們也提供一些想法來大家互相參考一下"},{"start":46.652,"end":74.344,"text":"今天大家都看到我們部裡面所提出來的這個書面報告裡面有關於勞扶法為什麼要針對這個福利機構的評鑑做一些調整我想已經講得非常清楚包括召委也希望能夠把勞扶法跟我們目前的這個長照法評鑑機構要去一致就是以前會分等地希望就直接把它設為兩者是一致的是合格或不合格"},{"start":75.745,"end":89.385,"text":"那這部分部長你也敬表支持那也希望能夠針對於這個條文裡面相關的一些內文在做修正動議以後把它能夠弄得更周全"},{"start":91.101,"end":115.407,"text":"我想大家都會朝這個方向去努力那在這個宣發過程裡面這個民眾黨他的黨團裡面其實也講到了立法說明說發現目前的評鑑會造成一些行政壓力那機構在處理希望得到高分的同時會投入大量的人力來準備書面的資料跟報表反而會壓縮了這個照顧的時間"},{"start":118.229,"end":136.142,"text":"這基本上是貝里的長照服務品質提升了本質所以才希望能夠做這一個相關的這些配套措施包括跟兩個法案的一致性那我們也了解這個一致性是非常重要那也期待能夠得到一些改善"},{"start":136.903,"end":153.304,"text":"不過請教一下就是說我們如果要簡化評鑑標準減輕機構的壓力還要同時兼顧這個評鑑品質得到好的權平衡的話那我們在具體說法上有沒有辦法透過修法來達到這樣的目標"},{"start":155.526,"end":165.8,"text":"副長或者是次長有沒有相關的意見可以提供給我們做參考我想評鑑是一種不得不的必須要做就像醫院評鑑大家愛愛救但是為了維護品質"},{"start":171.047,"end":196.442,"text":"以及督導整個醫療院所能夠注意到各種品質的安全各方面這個部分不得不的一個平衡的一個做法謝謝我們大院能夠來關心到這個問題我們也覺得把它變成一致性會更好處理也不用大家在拚"},{"start":197.463,"end":217.121,"text":"病人這種假意病定的衝到大家壓力大啦那最重要是好好把病人照顧好那這個部分我相信如果有這樣的一個一致性以後我們繼續來修正以及聽聽機構的聲音我相信我們會把平線的制度做得更"},{"start":218.302,"end":244.608,"text":"更好有必要的話我們都可以來成立小組來演繹這樣子是因為我們知道目前為什麼要把它從這個等D加以丙丁然後變成那個合格跟破合格我們往下看就可以知道目前的老夫法的評鑑標準裡面就有包括現有的如果是沒有修法之前的話就是分了U加以丙丁那丙跟丁基本上是會受到"},{"start":245.848,"end":272.948,"text":"影響會被公佈他的這個機構的名稱同時會有一些懲處那這個評鑑項目裡面其實還包括五大面向包括經營專業照護安全環境等等那有不同的占比那我們修法以後如果兩個法案的評鑑標準要趨於一致的話那未來在執行的部分包括老夫法跟長照法裡面的這個評鑑標準"},{"start":274.989,"end":303.436,"text":"有沒有已經同步在做處置這部分不知道目前部裡面有沒有相關的一些處理模式有關這個部分 周代理市長跟委員報告搭配整個條文的修改目前我們也已經邀集了相關的專業團體我們已經有一個研究計畫在做下一輪評鑑的評鑑指標的一個修改"},{"start":304.236,"end":321.141,"text":"其中包含一個目標就是怎麼樣把評鑑的項目在能夠比較精準的去認定它的品質的情況之下把指標的具體項目一併來做簡化這個是在整個計畫裡面的一個重要的方向"},{"start":321.941,"end":347.186,"text":"是 因為就好像剛剛昭緯一直在追問的交通部如何能夠針對於我們在提供給社會更公平更能夠服務到不同的族群之下可以有一致性的做法相對的如果我們未來也希望很多的服務的內容都能夠去一致或是對各個單位的要求去一致的話其實在不同的法律之間也應該"},{"start":348.766,"end":369.794,"text":"基於相同的要求之下應該朝這個方向來進進這很期待如果說衛福部裡面有相關的這些服務的內容分散在不同的這些條法律裡面的話也希望能夠從這個方向去檢討不要讓各個單位在執行的時候造成一些困擾我們會邀請長照師一起來參與就是大家一起來討論讓兩邊的做法能夠趨近"},{"start":376.616,"end":400.552,"text":"因為我們比較擔心的就是如果透過等一下我們也許會討論到修正動議來看的話會把原來是屬於平等丁等的這部分就直接改成合格或不合格當然那個是要從這個執法裡面再去做確定我們比較擔心的就是本來在一開始的時候針對第48條的前面第一項的前面幾款就會直接如果有"},{"start":401.172,"end":420.58,"text":"符合規定的話呢就要公佈他的名稱負責人的姓名而且是直接開罰那如果經過修正動議裡面的內文把它往後調調到第八項的話呢會變成說如果是不合格要限期令期改善如果不改善的話呢才要開始做處分"},{"start":421.5,"end":443.615,"text":"所以相對來講那反而是一個相對的放寬所以我們等一下在做這個修正動力的條文內容的部分我相信大家要提供更多的意見或者是有更好的方式來把這個該有的要讓我們的機構必須要遵守法尊的部分能夠有更周連的處置模式這個是等一下我們會再處理的地方"},{"start":445.216,"end":472.093,"text":"好的好 那針對是有關於這個博愛座的相關定義跟規範的部分我想是讓我第五三條大家也非常期待有更好的方式來解決目前廠長碰到的困境我本身是已經在現有的博愛座的條件之下我每次搭捷運就很大方的就坐在我該坐的位置那我現在不知道如果調整優先席以後我上到這個捷運或者是到哪裡我應該"},{"start":473.214,"end":493.423,"text":"怎麼樣去面對這樣的這個環境的就是這個條款改變以後造成的對我的一些影響我相信應該有很多人會開始要不知道怎麼樣去面對這種從博愛做變成優先席這樣的這個概念上的處置所以對於使用需求跟精神上的處置我相信"},{"start":495.004,"end":506.589,"text":"衛福部應該是責無旁貸要把這些要求或者是精神能夠貫注到日常的生活裡面做適當的處置那不知道這邊衛福部有沒有做哪一些的準備"},{"start":507.557,"end":531.549,"text":"好 我想委員提的這個很重要圖法不只於自省所以怎麼樣在桌前性的 不然的話那你本來應該要坐在那裡 才坐到如坐尊山的確會有這種擔心所以我們可能要把所有的配套與宣導的內容可能都要做桌前性的一個"},{"start":533.168,"end":555.733,"text":"一個一個設計,讓該做的做到哪一邊,該比更需要的可能就這個時候就可能給更需要的人這樣子我們希望整個設計到這樣的一個,形成這樣的一個文化,那文化是需要來宣導的這個部分我想我們會做這些委員的提醒,我們會把它做折扣性的一個來處理"},{"start":556.853,"end":577.094,"text":"因為文化的養成需要比較長久的時間那這個當然也希望有好的社會共識也知道未來在執行的時候可以怎麼樣讓它更優化那最後一個部分就是要比較不是很緊急可是希望能夠盡速來處理的就是有關於公衛疫苗的能源運送的問題"},{"start":578.175,"end":594.545,"text":"因為我們知道現在天氣已經進入到夏季變得非常炎熱那對疫情的改善或者是目前針對疫情如何能夠有效管控那打疫苗應該是非常重要的一個需要提供給民眾的服務那目前"},{"start":595.806,"end":618.332,"text":"我們很多的疫苗包括流感疫苗、COVID疫苗、小兒疫苗等等這個都需要透過冷藏的配送來讓這個品質可以得到好的保護可是很多的基層診所在領疫苗的時候需要由醫事人員到當地的衛生局去取回疫苗這個過程相對來講不准耗時而且"},{"start":619.332,"end":643.934,"text":"如何能夠有好的這個保存的模式其實是會讓人家擔心所以如何能夠討論出一個好的方式來讓這個疫苗的冷鏈配送服務可以更為周全那其實在COVID流行期那段時間很多的縣市是有提供配套措施的它可以透過好的這個冷鏈的配送"},{"start":645.015,"end":659.922,"text":"能夠讓這個疫苗很安全的而且是很有效率的抵達到不管是在衛生所或者是到急診所來讓這個疫苗的施打可以更為安全更為符合期待那目前並沒有"},{"start":661.162,"end":675.577,"text":"還是還沒有一個很完整的標準當然這個需要經費也需要一些好的措施跟方法那針對這部分不知道有沒有辦法請這個部裡面盡速的來研商"},{"start":676.418,"end":702.164,"text":"是針對於這個都會區先做呢還是要從偏鄉或離島先把它處理到一個程度讓全國未來再處理這個能量配送疫苗的這個安全度啊或者是各方面可以達到好的一個保護措施部長這邊有沒有可以提供給我們的想法我想委員提的這個是非常重要的在基層醫療長久以來發生的問題尤其在像COVID剛開始"},{"start":706.092,"end":727.242,"text":"當時我也擔任台北市醫師公會理事長王偉炎也擔任基隆市醫師公會理事長其實在防疫當中我們都花了很多的心力一個剛開始要打COVID疫苗的時候政府是認了基層診所是沒辦法打當然他們認了很多原因包括冷淚"},{"start":728.743,"end":744.586,"text":"配送是一個很大的問題但是我們後來經過專家的一個研議認為說他大概怎麼樣的一個運送會沒有問題然後果然這些螞蟻雄兵創造了七成的疫苗施打率"},{"start":745.972,"end":768.987,"text":"這個部分所以變成裡面解決這個能量的配重是一個很重要的問題那這個因為它跟衛生局有相當大的關係我們部裡面會出面來關心這些有沒有需要幫忙的因為它是相當的複雜診所像台北就有幾千家那不可能"},{"start":770.733,"end":799.899,"text":"有在真的打疫苗的公會疫苗的可能至少有幾百家以上衛生局都沒有這個人可以配送所以只好去領這樣子那這個部分有沒有更好的方式我們來思考來研議是 所以就要麻煩這個部裡面或者是CDC開始做一些統籌那要跟地方政府包括衛生局如果能夠商討出一個好的方式很期待這個部長可以趕快把這個事情"},{"start":800.759,"end":816.203,"text":"好的 做一個重要的處理模式那最後其實就是把今天三個部分跟部長來這邊做一些討論的攜帶能夠具體的落實好 那我們就繼續努力好 謝謝 謝謝市委好 謝謝文偉 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1006,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時7分）謝謝主席，我們還是請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。雖然今天修法的內容看起來簡單，可是如何能夠落實，如何讓它更精進，真的是需要大家共同努力，針對今天的老福法第四十八條修正條文，我們也提供一些想法，大家互相參考一下。今天大家都看到部裡面所提出來的書面報告，有關老福法為什麼要針對福利機構的評鑑做一些調整，我想已經講得非常清楚。包括召委也希望能夠把老福法跟目前長照法的機構評鑑一致化，就是以前會分等第，希望直接將兩者修為一致，就是合格或不合格。這部分部長表示支持，也希望能夠針對條文內容再做修正，把它弄得更周全，我想大家都會朝這個方向去努力。","在修法的過程中，民眾黨黨團的立法說明裡面也提到，目前的評鑑會造成一些行政壓力，機構在處理評鑑，希望得到高分的同時，會投入大量人力準備書面的資料跟報表，反而會壓縮照顧的時間，這個基本上是背離了長照服務品質提升的本質，所以才希望能夠做一些相關的配套措施，包括兩個法案的一致性。我們也了解，一致性是非常重要的，也期待能夠得到一些改善。不過請教一下，我們如果要簡化評鑑標準，減輕機構的壓力，還要同時兼顧評鑑品質，得到好的平衡的話，我們在具體的作法上，有沒有辦法透過修法來達到這樣的目標？請問部長或是次長，有沒有相關的意見可以提供給我們做參考？"],["邱部長泰源：我想評鑑是一種不得不的必須要做，就像醫院評鑑，大家「哀哀叫」，但是為了維護品質以及督導整個醫療院所，能夠注意到品質、安全等各方面，這是不得不的一個平衡的作法。謝謝大院能夠關心到這個問題，我們也覺得把它變成一致性會更好處理，大家也不用再「拚」那個甲、乙、丙、丁的，弄得大家壓力很大，最重要的是好好地把病人照顧好。這部分我相信如果能做到一致性以後，我們繼續來修正以及聽聽機構的聲音，相信會把評鑑的制度做得更好，有必要的話我們都可以成立小組來研議。"],["王委員正旭：是。我們知道目前為什麼要把它從甲乙丙丁的等第變成合格跟不合格，我們往下看就可以知道，目前老福法的評鑑標準裡面，現有的沒有修法之前就是分為優、甲、乙、丙，丁共5個等第，評鑑結果若是丙跟丁會受到影響，會被公布機構的名稱，同時會有一些懲處。評鑑項目裡面有五大面向，包括經營、專業照護、安全環境等等，有不同的占比。我們修法以後，如果兩個法案的評鑑標準要趨於一致的話，未來在執行的部分，包括老福法跟長照法裡面的評鑑標準，是否已經同步在做處置？這部分不知道目前部裡面有沒有相關的一些處理模式？"],["邱部長泰源：有關這個部分，請周代理署長來說明。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，搭配整個條文的修改，目前我們已經邀集了相關的專業團體，我們也有一個研究計畫在做下一輪評鑑的評鑑指標的修改，其中包含一個目標，就是怎麼樣把評鑑的項目，在能夠比較精準地去認定它的品質的情況之下，把指標的具體項目的部分一併做簡化，這個是在整個計畫裡面的一個重要方向。"],["王委員正旭：就好像剛剛召委一直在追問的，交通部如何能夠針對我們在提供給社會更公平、更能夠服務到不同的族群之下，可以有一致性的作法；相對的，如果我們未來也希望很多的服務內容都能夠趨於一致，或者是對各個單位的要求趨於一致的話，其實在不同的法律之間，也應該基於相同的要求朝這個方向來精進。所以我們很期待，如果衛福部有相關的服務內容分散在不同的法律裡面，也希望能夠從這個方向去檢討，不要讓各個單位在執行的時候造成一些困擾。"],["周代理署長道君：是，跟委員報告，研修的過程我們會邀請長照司一起來參與，就是大家一起來討論，讓兩邊的作法能夠趨近。"],["王委員正旭：好。因為我們比較擔心的是，等一下我們也許會討論到修正動議，會把原來是屬於丙等、丁等的這部分直接改成合格或不合格，當然那是要從子法裡面再去做確定。我們比較擔心的是，本來在一開始的時候，針對第四十八條第一項前面幾款，如果有不符合規定的話，就要公布它的名稱、負責人的姓名，而且是直接開罰，如果經過修正動議裡面的內文把它往後調，調到第八項的話，會變成說如果是不合格，要限期令其改善，如果不改善才要開始做處分。所以相對來講，這反而是相對的放寬。所以我們等一下在看修正動議的條文內容，我相信大家要提供更多的意見，或者是有更好的方式來把該有的，要讓我們的機構必須要遵守法令的部分，能夠有更周延的處置模式，這是等一下我們會再處理的地方。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員正旭：針對博愛座的相關定義跟規範的部分，我想關於身障法第五十三條，大家也非常期待有更好的方式來解決目前常常碰到的困境。我本身是在現有的博愛座的條件之下，每次搭捷運就很大方的坐在我該坐的位置，我現在不知道如果調整為優先席以後，我搭上捷運或者是到哪裡，應該怎麼樣去面對這樣的環境。就是這個法改變以後對我造成的一些影響，我相信應該有很多人會開始不知道怎麼樣去面對從博愛座變成優先席這樣概念上的處置，所以對使用需求跟精神上的處置，我相信衛福部應該是責無旁貸，要把這些要求或者是精神能夠灌注到日常生活裡面做適當的處置，不知道衛福部有沒有做哪些準備？"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員提的這個很重要，徒法不足以自行，所以看怎麼樣能夠做到周全性，不然的話，你本來應該坐在那邊，結果卻如坐針氈，的確會有這種擔心，所以我們可能要把所有的配套與宣導的內容做周全性的設計，讓該坐的人坐在那邊，若有更需要的人，這個時候可能就給更需要的人。我們希望整個設計到形成這樣的一個文化，文化是需要宣導的，這個部分我想我們會做，謝謝委員的提醒，我們會把它做周全性的處理。"],["王委員正旭：因為文化的養成需要比較長久的時間，這個部分當然也希望能夠有好的社會共識，也知道未來在執行的時候可以怎麼樣讓它更為優化。","最後一個部分不是很緊急，可是希望能夠儘速來處理的就是有關於公費疫苗的冷鏈運送問題。我們知道現在已經進入到夏季，天氣變得非常炎熱，對於疫情的改善，或者是目前針對疫情如何能夠有效管控，打疫苗應該是非常重要的一個需要提供給民眾的服務。目前我們很多的疫苗，包括流感疫苗、COVID疫苗、小兒疫苗等等，都需要透過冷藏配送讓品質可以得到好的保護，可是很多基層診所在領疫苗的時候，需要由醫事人員到當地的衛生局去取回疫苗，這個過程相對來講不僅耗時，而且如何能夠有好的保存模式，其實會讓人家擔心，所以如何能夠討論出一個好的方式，讓疫苗的冷鏈配送服務可以更為周全？其實在COVID流行期那段時間，很多縣市是有提供配套措施的，他可以透過好的冷鏈的配送，能夠讓這個疫苗很安全的、很有效率的抵達衛生所或者是到基層診所，讓這個疫苗的施打可以更為安全、更符合期待。目前還沒有一個很完整的標準，當然這需要經費，也需要一些好的措施跟方法，針對這部分，不知道有沒有辦法請部裡面儘速地來研商？是針對都會區先做呢？還是要從偏鄉或離島先把它處理到一個程度，讓全國未來在處理冷鏈配送疫苗的安全度，或者是各方面可以達到好的保護措施？部長這邊有沒有可以提供給我們的想法？"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員提的這個部分是非常重要的，在基層醫療長久以來發生的問題，尤其像COVID剛開始，當時我也擔任臺北市醫師公會理事長，王委員也擔任基隆市醫師公會理事長，其實在防疫當中，我們都花了很多心力。剛開始要打COVID疫苗的時候，政府是認為基層診所沒辦法打，當然他們認為有很多原因，包括冷鏈配送是一個很大的問題，但是後來經過專家的研議，認為大概怎麼樣的運送會沒有問題，然後果然這些螞蟻雄兵創造了7成的疫苗施打率，所以解決冷鏈的配送是很重要的。這跟衛生局有相當大的關係，我們部裡面會出面來關心有沒有需要幫忙的地方，因為這是相當的複雜，像臺北就有幾千家診所，真的有在打公費疫苗的，可能至少有幾百家以上，衛生局大概沒有這個人力可以配送，所以只好他們去領，而這個部分有沒有更好的方式？我們會來思考、研議。"],["王委員正旭：所以就要麻煩部裡面或者是CDC開始做一些統籌，要跟地方政府包括衛生局商討出一個好的方式，很期待部長可以趕快把這個事情做一個重要的處理模式。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員正旭：最後其實就是把今天三個部分跟部長來做一些討論，也期待能夠具體的落實，我們就繼續努力，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91aad485c287020919db9483b76f331b600afb45025fabe4623be43c8a959977bea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:44:24 - 12:07:04","影片長度":"00:22:40","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T11:44:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T12:07:04+08:00","duration":1360,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.705343750000001,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.56534375,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.72096875,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.74971875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.84659375,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.43284375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.934718750000002,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.21659375,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.47784375,"end":47.112218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.314718750000004,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.03596875,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.23784375,"end":73.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.24721875,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.44159375000001,"end":133.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.37284375000002,"end":135.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.07721875000001,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.77721875,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.75596875000002,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.26159375,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.43284375000002,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.76159375,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.37659375,"end":170.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.50221875,"end":170.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.27846875,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.02471875,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.54721875,"end":180.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.76221875000002,"end":181.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.21346875,"end":183.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.39471875,"end":184.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.48721875,"end":186.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.05659375000002,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.90034375000002,"end":189.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.21221875,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.05596875,"end":191.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.62971875000002,"end":192.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.90346875,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.98346875000001,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.90721875,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.10534375,"end":200.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.57346875000002,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.24409375000002,"end":203.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.29034375,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.89346875,"end":205.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.32784375,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.71159375000002,"end":210.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.19221875000002,"end":211.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.92596875,"end":214.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.57971875,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.28409375,"end":217.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.29221875000002,"end":219.32159375},{"speaker":"SP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集聚各個這個面向跟執行面可能會有一些自然染型的部分那這個可以限縮這個範圍"},{"start":89.383,"end":102.148,"text":"也可以找個時間大家先坐下來趕快討論如果我們大家有共識行政院可能他的速度就會再這麼緩慢的可能速度就會更快甚至我們這個會期就可以把他提出來討論經過審查之後讓他通過儘早讓這些"},{"start":108.875,"end":137.588,"text":"新年招待節的朋友的需求可以透過我們這樣一個修法的制度來予以保障我想這個也是部長一直都在做的事情謝謝所以我還是特別拜託就是說這個會期是不是可以把它盡快的趕快提出來到委員會來做討論這第一點那部長你今天看這53條剛剛黃修安委員提出來的問題是非常具體實際的我們今天要修要修這個博愛座不要讓博愛座變成博鬥座"},{"start":140.638,"end":154.286,"text":"這個報導你應該都有看過一個國醫生浪出博愛座這個寫浪出是有點奇怪的用詞能被數落到哭那校長說會給他正能量這是一個面向的問題一個角度問題那第二個"},{"start":155.718,"end":178.194,"text":"我們今天為什麼要討論這個事情你知道剛剛部長有一句話我聽起來蠻感動的這國家政策不管是哪一個單位哪一個面向在執行上在規劃上他就是一定要事權統一他的標準要一致嘛對不對那我跟各位提供一些訊息讓各位看一下我們有太多到現在通通沒有標準一致這一國N字啊高鐵的博愛座是寫這樣"},{"start":185.566,"end":191.91,"text":"三個圖卡對不對這第一個應該就是老嘛弱嘛然後然後再來公車不愛坐就只有一個一個圖卡然後捷運不愛坐四個來接下來你看台鐵台鐵已經把把這個不愛坐然後又框了更大的一個一個標示叫優先席"},{"start":212.964,"end":227.157,"text":"他已經走在大家的前面了走在你衛部的前面了然後下面就是五個圖卡我們有五個圖卡我們有四個圖卡我們有三個圖卡我們有兩個圖卡圖標我不曉得這個是這個是副市長你們交通部的節奏你們的規範高鐵你就是這樣做台鐵你就這樣做捷運你就這樣做公車你就這樣做"},{"start":239.427,"end":259.846,"text":"請說明跟委員報告因為其實過去那個博愛做的一個設置大概就是依照生權法那但是就圖示的部分我們確實是沒有做一個整合那不過為什麼會沒有做一個整合為什麼應該是說這個整合是你交通部想管還是衛護部要管還是你們兩個都不曉得誰要管"},{"start":263.364,"end":285.328,"text":"先跟委員報告一下我們先把責任確定清楚好不好因為申請法在修的時候你責任部一定是要去列席嘛一定要引業管的範圍要去處理要去面對的嘛對不對那我現在講說這個公共運輸這幾個公共運輸的整個處理不外出的方式包含他的圖卡通通不一致這個到底是誰的責任"},{"start":287.612,"end":299.043,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為我們其實現在各大眾運輸系統的所有的圖卡包括不外做包括其他的一些圖卡我們部裡面現在都有在委託設計你們到現在才在委託設計應該是說已經"},{"start":302.566,"end":319.811,"text":"有一段時間啦 那其中因為不愛做的部分我們有配合就是說有考慮到說就是配合那個生權法已經要修正所以不愛做的部分我們已經有內部已經有預先設計了一個圖卡那如果說法規有修正的時候我們大概會你們預先設計了一個圖卡是五個的還是三個的還是兩個的還是四個的"},{"start":323.952,"end":338.452,"text":"我們是參考國際的啦那我印象中好像是四個還五個的你還四個還五個你到底參考國際的你到底是參考四個還是參考五個的應該是比較像是現在不要叫做比較好像那我是不是在我高鐵會跟你講說比較好像"},{"start":341.755,"end":361.011,"text":"因為這個部分我是不是在另外提供給委員因為我這個部分我們在委託設計的現在我沒有帶過來那我是不是會後再提供給所以你想要管所有公共運輸基本上當你事權統一之後你把圖卡同步做出來之後大家都要依照你公告的一致性嘛對不對好那萬一你公告是四個圖卡那台鐵是不是抓起來打屁股"},{"start":364.722,"end":390.395,"text":"那台鐵已經做了 博愛做優先席然後它是五個圖卡 它說全部要更掉那這些錢是交通部要支持還是台鐵要自賄台鐵現在已經民營了台鐵是公司化 但還沒有公司化 已經公司化了嘛 對不對那已經成這個營運方式嘛 對不對它已經做了啊它已經做了啊如果你是四個 它要不要改 錢誰花"},{"start":392.109,"end":417.5,"text":"我想這個部分我們都會我們我們會來處理我們再來我知道你會處理你一定要處理你務必要處理你這不處理就是這樣一口多字啊五四三二會不會搞到一個一而且一嘛真的有一不會因為我們公車不會做就一跟我有辦法我們會參考國際國際上的一個圖示然後對你的國際圖示是只是要依照來一個國依照日本還是依照英國"},{"start":420.391,"end":448.925,"text":"因為日本跟英國也不一樣啊應該是我們會這個事情你要進 你要 你要應變速度要非常快嘛今天你來備詢 你應該就知道可能很多人會垂詢到你可能你沒有意識到會垂詢到我這種 我這種會這樣用用這種圖卡的標示這最簡單的 顯得一致的 很清楚的日本就五 對不對 英國就三你要選擇哪一國我們會盡量融入所有有需要的人的一個圖示這樣子"},{"start":451.356,"end":471.01,"text":"這個齁 這個其實台灣的博愛做文化可以接受到1972年所以我剛剛在主席來說說已經已經將近50年了我們要面對的我們要去做處理我們要去做改善的我們要去規格統一化的標準要一致的 陳鲁剛陳鲁剛所講的嘛對不對那你今天來了你還沒有辦法講一致性的一個回應所有的委員這個還不到剛剛黃修文講的那個層次問題喔"},{"start":476.823,"end":504.761,"text":"今天不是你一把它規格化的時候就不會發生我們今天之前發生的那些事情喔還是會持續發生喔但是你要成為部長所講的所謂的道德勸說啦所謂的愛心展現啦很多人都是這麼做但是極少數人就不是這麼做所以就是問題層出不窮嘛但是你自己公佈文在管理公務運輸的時候你這些標示圖卡都不一致了你叫人民如何去遵循"},{"start":506.104,"end":518.91,"text":"你叫列車長怎麼去做有效的執行溝通你叫任何公務運輸的服務人員要依照什麼樣的標準去做規範 去做引導那都是不可能的事情台灣公務運輸怎麼會搞成這個樣子加這個有54321喔"},{"start":532.731,"end":553.589,"text":"這個問題今天已經排專案了然後等一下要審查了如果你們到現在衛生部跟交通部還沒有辦法有一致的共識難怪生存法這麼多條你要等到什麼時候才有辦法一切都以站在身心障礙者的朋友的角度的需求去做處理很難啦很難啦這是公部門的障礙"},{"start":567.268,"end":579.603,"text":"我想交通部一定會弄成一致性,如果我們大案審查通過的話,我相信交通部會很快做標準的版本"},{"start":580.904,"end":605.336,"text":"剛剛講宣傳啦你剛剛講宣傳他意識性標準他可能今天法律通過之後他就必須一個星期內就要把這個標準弄出來了嘛你如果再拖了就不叫公共運輸了就標準化了那高鐵就變成慢鐵了台鐵就變成怪鐵了因為台鐵都已經比你們更優先了你現在還要叫台鐵我們之前通過議員我們最後結論是怎樣你要叫台鐵已經做這個行為你要叫整條還回來"},{"start":610.133,"end":626.662,"text":"你對台鐵是否高台的地位?是否好公衛?是否好藝術?我再講講宣傳宣傳裡面衛福部你們也沒什麼錢你們一百四十年都沒宣揮放在台北半日六十年你們剩一千七百五十年他們搞得不太可能一百五十年放在台北兩千兩百幾萬"},{"start":629.192,"end":650.247,"text":"你一定要宣傳你不宣傳一定會出一定會再出問題你看這個下一頁台北捷運這個一直在宣傳電弧梯兩側站立城下不張兩派旅客先戰火那藝人發聲不要指著沒有錯的人這個部長知道這個新聞報導吧副市長應該也知道嘛副市長這個事情你們都知道嘛"},{"start":651.488,"end":670.277,"text":"我們現在的習慣就是都走,都騎車去旁邊嘛,就用樓梯去走嘛對不對?是是你如果沒有去公共公安,兩側都可以站立你知道習慣靠右的人,習慣看到有通道在左左邊的人然後被兩個站在那個地方的人阻礙到,然後造成完結路階"},{"start":672.58,"end":681.186,"text":"你沒有法律的任何一個規範你只是做一個宣導而已喔你只是做一個宣導而已喔到現在還爭論不休這事情解決了嗎"},{"start":688.664,"end":705.415,"text":"這個主要是台北捷運啦那當初他們是為了一個效率的部分然後是希望大家站在右邊那可是後來發現其實這個對那個應該是說一邊在行走的時候也會造成旅客的一個不安全所以他們現在已經在做宣導就是說盡量就是"},{"start":706.235,"end":725.642,"text":"不用特別站在右邊是兩邊都可以站那這個觀念據我了解台北捷運公司有持續一直在做一個宣導那當然這個過程可能要因為大家習慣已久所以要一段時間的一個改變不過慢慢已經有開始有在做一些改變慢慢改變嘛要宣導嘛對不對差不多要多久的時間"},{"start":732.483,"end":758.876,"text":"因為這個主要是台北市的部分啦,那我們會...台北市有很多山鐵公共的站體嘛,對不對我來捷運是這個樣子,我到高鐵的時候又另外一個樣子我到台鐵又另外一個樣子,我是台灣人我怎麼會遇到三個公共運輸的這樣的一個電扶梯的狀況都不一樣我來捷運的時候,沒有你就要這樣我來高鐵的電扶梯的時候,你也不用這樣我去台鐵的電扶梯的時候,你也不用這樣"},{"start":762.762,"end":782.541,"text":"把電爐鐵的事就不跟這種程度,你這要怎麼處理所以我一直講,黃委員剛剛提到的就是重中之重啊你們今天來應該是準備好了啊你們這樣打呼我們,我們今天秀這個華好像對你們的幫助也不是很大餒次長你要再來齁,注意,來"},{"start":784.931,"end":801.84,"text":"你一直叫我注意,你就注意這個事情,看你怎麼打我我簡單講,有關於土石的保温其實各國規定不一樣,我想說法國法國他們還有一個就是傷兵他們非常注重的就是說,你如果說受傷的那個基床你看那個狗的裡面,有一個就是傷兵"},{"start":803.701,"end":818.23,"text":"我們會來趕快 當然這個是主要是交通部一邊但是我們是 生權法這是我們管的嘛我們會趕快來協調交通部 比較快來做一個相關的LOGO 比較快把它確定這第一點第二點就是說 那個選團的部分 就像消防委員剛才所說不是只有改名而已 我們也是要比較快來做選團嘛這個部分雖然 全部都卡在這裡你全部卡在這裡也不一定看得到後果 你要全部卡在這裡我全力支持"},{"start":834.903,"end":840.329,"text":"還是要處理啦還是要處理1750你還是要全部放在這個地方不過還是江東部一起來嘛對不對當然是這樣嘛"},{"start":843.81,"end":867.462,"text":"一個星期內啦好不好具體的你們宣傳的這樣的一個方式啦還有統一的這樣的一個圖卡的標示然後甚至於每一個車廂都有一定程度的定時去廣播等等等諸如此類相關的詳細計畫提供給委會做參考好不好拜託盡速盡速盡速一致性啦那第二個問題抱歉一樣還是要給部長看一下這個齁"},{"start":871.209,"end":874.592,"text":"剛剛次長講得很好就是服務的項目這個應該是月請人提供的要一致性次長特別提到個人助理是屬於"},{"start":900.124,"end":919.877,"text":"兩個層次嘛一個是生活照顧嘛對不對就屬於長照這一塊來處理嘛另外一個是屬於社會的參與面向嘛好你看這個各住的服務不提供之協助各縣市均不一那我們簡單講這七個項目呢社會參與你看是哪幾項你看是哪幾項陪伴跟外出陪伴跟外出嘛新北市不提供"},{"start":930.302,"end":946.695,"text":"他怎麼社會參與你們剛剛為什麼沒有針對這個表去做答覆部長想說要一致啊好 那你說生活照顧應該一二三四都可以算是嘛 生活照顧你看這麼多縣市都不提供啊你們怎麼 怎麼剛剛針對這一塊都沒有做任何的一個答覆我一連線幾乎全部都攔掛了"},{"start":959.716,"end":983.09,"text":"報告委員,現在就是說我們這個部分主要是會有一個自立生活計畫,這個計畫主要是社工、男性身障礙者來共同討論,你要先去做一個需求評估嘛,還要了解他的總統,之後訂出一個照顧計畫。我知道。但是委員你剛才說到文明,你如果先放棄陪伴跟外出,這是社會參與最重要的。文明怎麼可能跟他說,我跟他說的是文明的啊。"},{"start":983.91,"end":1009.491,"text":"但是你要回覆啊 你要看要不要處理啊 要不要去應變啊我比較緊張 結束以後 我要趕快來跟市長是要全國加起來 先把市對社會常務 要給這身障者朋友他把它限制住了 不行我會後 我趕快跟新北市政府那邊 趕快來了解一下 好不好然後也回覆給委員我時間有關係啦 我最後再請教部長跟次長啦你們要答覆我啦 如果說我們一個政策行程"},{"start":1010.971,"end":1029.981,"text":"規劃都已經完整然後執行也差不多我們就講五年就好了啦 講五年然後在整個執行過程裡面這個預算的執行數基本上都不到六成啦不到六成 我要請教部長業管的單位 業管的主管 業管的承辦你們要怎麼處理你們的處置方式怎樣"},{"start":1038.824,"end":1061.101,"text":"執行率低了,一定要去檢討到底是什麼原因嗎?不是啊,原因一定會很多啦,到底是自然燃刑的原因是大家可以理解的但是連續五年的情況之下,就像現在這個啦我的助理馬上就給你獻底牌了這個是剛來的"},{"start":1063.451,"end":1084.355,"text":"對 這個當然就是要去看各種原因 如果是可以可那你就回答我什麼原因了啊 次長你注意 你馬上回答我什麼原因二位委員 我們這個其實我們都有跟地方政府講就是說在沽的時候我們希望能夠給這一個我們聲音障礙者用寬沽的方式就是我們核定的時數 讓人比較適合的讓人比較適合 所以地書公可能他在水泳方面沒那麼多啦"},{"start":1090.476,"end":1117.094,"text":"因為你輸了,所以你把錢給他,但是他輸了就沒這麼多啦所以你每一天都是這樣就對了啦所以我們才有愛心,我們心臟也放得很寬但是其實你會提出的訴求就沒這麼多所以今天也這樣,明天也這樣,明天也這樣,明天那天也這樣不用檢討,萬一就是這樣沒有啦,你要回答原因就是這樣,你如果要很肯定的答問我"},{"start":1119.211,"end":1129.737,"text":"我覺得有另外一個問題要請教你的是這樣嗎?我相信當然啦我們來檢討一下看是不是說有可能沒有好用的地方像剛才你說新北市那邊他們告訴說社會產物沒有人能夠陪伴我們自己來檢討我這個部分"},{"start":1138.803,"end":1155.971,"text":"新北市的各處的服務項目不同意外出這個部分這個裡面找新北市去看如何去討論然後去對新北市需要各處不能外出的情況要對這些深圳市的朋友如何坦白講在陸北叫謝罪"},{"start":1158.814,"end":1165.658,"text":"那我現在就請教你嘛,你的核定總數110年是309,111年是341,113年415,113年486,今年多少?你節節上升喔,如果到113對照12,你是上升到將近50%的成長喔,對不對?"},{"start":1181.008,"end":1190.593,"text":"更寬的一個核定嘛對啊但是相對的你的實際使用數啦齁你使用時數這邊表格都很清楚嘛還是在你的這個核定的總數都超五成多而已嘛一直都沒有超過嘛所以大概也說一句話說不合用啦不合情啦"},{"start":1207.481,"end":1221.141,"text":"應該是這樣嘛,剛才廖委員講的那個八點鐘,我覺得其實有辦法去凸顯每一個新政府的朋友在提出各處的過程裡面真實的狀況嗎?那倒未必"},{"start":1226.041,"end":1242.871,"text":"那你知道嗎我們這個還要對照這個表格還不是很精細前面應該叫預算嘛對不對我們的預算就是在這個自力資源的大象裡面嘛3億嘛但是你知道你一百十不是多少嗎一百十四你3億嘛對不對一百十三多少"},{"start":1250.271,"end":1263.998,"text":"超過兩億多少?對阿,那一百十人是不是比較少?要簡單說的話,就是種植一直在增加,一直在增加,一直在增加嘛,你如果要說是一個輸農的市場,也有在增加,但是對這個增加,對你原本的匡列多層價預算,那個合乎比例嗎?好像沒有喔?柯國瑜,我是不是,我知道那個"},{"start":1277.506,"end":1299.215,"text":"如果這樣說起來,可能我們在這部分有一些可能雖然合併,但是可能不合應,等等這個部分我們回來檢討我拜託一下,不要到這裡很需要各自的身心在者的朋友,跟他們在做幾個小時的斤斤計較"},{"start":1300.555,"end":1326.566,"text":"真的真的真的不需要這樣啦齁那整個我們有這個制度我們有這個預算我們有這個計畫但是執行起來當然你可以用另外一個角度來再做另外一個討論啦齁那我還是覺得當有這些預算的時候在整個執行上一直出的問題有明顯的這樣的落差而且我們是年年年節節的上升的這個面向的預算喔但是我們看不到實際上的今天"},{"start":1327.506,"end":1353.776,"text":"所有的身上的朋友覺得這樣的需求他們可以應付到他們的真正的需要不然今天不會有這個記者會嘛所以我剛才提這個嘛 這個是有問題嘛所以這段是不是可以因為這部會議這部會議要等到修緩嘛 對不對是不是一天白天有什麼樣的應變的促使相關的一些調整的一個方向 方案可以提供給委員會做參考 可以嗎好 謝謝部長 謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":881,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時44分）謝謝主席，有請部長，還有交通部公共運輸及監理司胡副司長"],["主席：請邱部長、胡副司長。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。今天主要安排身權法的審查及詢答，我剛剛看到你的報告裡面，其實你有很多部分經表達「本部敬表同意」，當然還有其他的條文是希望所屬機關表示意見，我看起來各個委員所提的版本，基本上貴部同意的應該已經占了近一半，然後其他是所屬機關要去表達意見，這之前你在當立委、當召委的時候也都處理過，因為身權法涉及的面向，還有相關單位滿多的，就像今天，交通部的副司長也都要到，所以我覺得這個應該是可以再加快，好不好？這個應該可以加快啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的。"],["劉委員建國：因為如果大致上你們都有溝通過，各個面向跟執行面可能會有一些窒礙難行的部分，這個可以限縮範圍，也可以找個時間大家先坐下來趕快討論嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["劉委員建國：如果我們大家有共識，可能行政院的速度就不會再這麼緩慢，速度可能就會更快。"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["劉委員建國：甚至我們這個會期就可以把它提出來討論，經過審查之後讓它通過，儘早讓這些身心障礙者朋友的需求，可以透過我們修法的制度給予保障。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：我想這也是部長一直都在做的事情，所以我還是特別拜託啦！這個會期是不是可以儘快地提出來，到委員會來做討論？這是第一點。","部長，你今天看到這個第五十三條，剛剛黃秀芳委員提出的問題是非常具體實際的，我們今天要修博愛座，不要讓博愛座變成搏鬥座，這個報導你應該都有看過嘛，「國一生已讓出博愛座，仍被數落到哭，校長：會給他正能量」，這寫「讓出」用詞是有點奇怪啦！這是一個面向的問題，一個角度問題。第二個，我們今天為什麼要討論這個事情？剛剛部長有一席話我聽起來滿感動的，國家的政策不管是哪一個單位、哪一個面向，在規劃上它就是一定要事權統一，它的標準要一致，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我跟各位提供一些訊息，讓各位看一下，我們有太多種類，到現在統統沒有一致的標準，一國N制。高鐵的博愛座是寫這樣，三個圖卡，對不對？這第一個應該就是「老」，然後是「弱」。再來公車的博愛座就只有一個圖卡，捷運博愛座有四個。接下來你看臺鐵，臺鐵已經把博愛座又框了更大的一個標示，叫優先席，它已經走在大家前面了，走在你衛福部前面了，然後下面就是五個圖卡。我們有五個圖卡，有四個圖卡，有三個圖卡，有兩個圖卡，我不曉得這個是不是副司長你們交通部的節奏、你們的規範──高鐵，你就是這樣做；臺鐵，你就是這樣做；捷運，你就是這樣做；公車，你就是這樣做。請說明。"],["胡副司長迪琦：跟委員報告，因為其實過去博愛座的設置大概就是依照身權法，但是圖示的部分我們確實是沒有做整合，不過……"],["劉委員建國：為什麼沒有做整合？"],["胡副司長迪琦：應該是說……"],["劉委員建國：這個整合是你交通部轄管，還是衛福部要管？還是你們兩個都不曉得誰要管？"],["胡副司長迪琦：跟委員報告一下……"],["劉委員建國：我們先把責任確定清楚，好不好？因為身權法在修的時候，交通部一定是要列席，一定是有你業管的範圍要去處理、要去面對的，對不對？我現在講說這幾個公共運輸處理博愛座的方式，包含它的圖卡，統統都不一致，這個到底是誰的責任？"],["胡副司長迪琦：跟委員報告一下，其實現在各大眾運輸系統的所有圖卡，包括博愛座，包括其他的一些圖卡，我們部裡面現在都有在委託設計，之後……"],["劉委員建國：你們到現在才在委託設計？"],["胡副司長迪琦：應該是說已經有一段時間了，因為博愛座的部分我們有考慮到配合身權法已經要修正，所以博愛座的部分，我們內部已經有預先設計了一個圖卡，如果法規有修正，我們大概會做……"],["劉委員建國：你們預先設計的圖卡是五個的，還是三個的，還是兩個的，還是四個的？"],["胡副司長迪琦：我們是參考國際的，我印象中好像是四個還五個的。"],["劉委員建國：你還講「四個還五個」，你說參考國際的，到底是參考四個的，還是參考五個的？"],["胡副司長迪琦：應該比較像是現在……"],["劉委員建國：不要講什麼「比較」、「好像」。"],["胡副司長迪琦：我是不是……"],["劉委員建國：高鐵會跟你講說「比較好像」？"],["胡副司長迪琦：這個部分我是不是再另外提供給委員？因為這個部分是我們在委託設計的，現在我沒有帶過來，我是不是會後再提供給委員作參考？"],["劉委員建國：所以你轄管所有的公共運輸，基本上當你事權統一之後，你把圖卡同步做出來後，大家都要依照你公告的來做，要有一致性，對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，萬一你公告的是四個圖卡，臺鐵是不是要被抓起來打屁股？臺鐵已經做了博愛座──優先席，然後它是五個圖卡，它是不是全部要更換掉？這些錢是交通部要支持，還是臺鐵要自費？臺鐵現在已經民營了欸！"],["胡副司長迪琦：臺鐵是公司化，還沒有……"],["劉委員建國：對，已經公司化了，對不對？"],["胡副司長迪琦：還是國營……"],["劉委員建國：這是另外一個層次的營運方式，對不對？它已經做了啊！如果你是四個，它要不要改？錢誰花？"],["胡副司長迪琦：這個部分我們會來處理，我們再來……"],["劉委員建國：我知道你會處理，你一定要處理，你務必要處理，你再不處理，這樣就是一國多制啊！五、四、三、二，會不會再搞到一個一？還真的有一，公車博愛座就是一。"],["胡副司長迪琦：跟委員報告，我們會參考國際上的圖示，然後……"],["劉委員建國：對，你的國際圖示是要依照哪一國的？依照日本，還是依照英國？因為日本跟英國也不一樣啊！"],["胡副司長迪琦：應該說我們會……"],["劉委員建國：這個事情你應變速度要非常快，今天你來備詢就應該知道，可能很多委員會詢問你，可能你沒有意識到會被問到這種圖卡的標示，這種最簡單的、顯而易見的、很清楚的方式，日本就是五，英國就是三，對不對？你要選擇哪一國？"],["胡副司長廸琦：我們會儘量融入所有有需要者的圖示。"],["劉委員建國：其實臺灣的博愛座文化可以追溯到1972年，所以我剛剛在主席臺的時候有提到這個已經將近50年了，我們要面對的、我們要處理的、我們要改善的、我們要規格統一化及標準一致的，誠如剛剛邱部長所講的嘛，對不對？你今天來了，但是卻沒有辦法提出一致的說法來回應所有的委員，這個還不到剛剛黃秀芳委員講的那個層次的問題喔，今天不是你把它規格化之後，就不會發生之前所發生的那些事情，還是會持續發生喔！但是誠如部長所講的，所謂的道德勸說啦，所謂的愛心展現啦，很多人都是這麼做，但是極少數人就不是這麼做，所以問題就層出不窮嘛！公部門自己在管理公共運輸的時候，這些標示圖卡都不一致，你叫人民如何去遵循？你叫列車長怎麼去做有效的執行溝通？你叫公共運輸的服務人員要依照什麼樣的標準去做規勸及引導？那是統統不可能的事情啦！臺灣的公共運輸怎麼會搞成這個樣子？光是這個就有五、四、三、二、一喔？這個問題今天已經排專案了，然後等一下要審查了，如果到現在衛福部跟交通部還沒有辦法有一致的共識，身權法這麼多條要等到什麼時候才有辦法一切都以身心障礙者朋友的角度及需求去做處理，很難啦！很難啦！這是公部門的障礙！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想交通部一定會弄成一致啦，如果大院審查通過的話，我相信交通部會很快弄出一個標準的版本。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛講宣傳啦，部長，你剛剛講宣傳，有關一致性的標準，可能今天法律通過之後，他就必須在一個星期內把這個標準弄出來了嘛，如果再拖就不叫公共運輸的標準化了，高鐵就變成慢鐵了，臺鐵就變成怪鐵了，因為臺鐵都已經比你們更優先了。我們等一下通過之後，我們最後的結論是怎樣，你要叫臺鐵把已經做好的這些全部撕掉重來，這樣對臺鐵交代得過去嗎？好意思這樣嗎？","我再說到宣傳，你們衛福部也沒有什麼錢啊，114年度的媒宣費被砍60%，剩下1,750萬，交通部也很可憐，一億多元的預算被砍兩千兩百多萬，但你們一定要宣傳，不宣傳一定會再出問題。","請看螢幕上的簡報，媒體報導的標題是「台北捷運『電扶梯兩側站立』成效不彰？兩派旅客掀戰火……藝人發聲：不要指責沒有錯的人」，部長知道這個新聞報導吧？副司長應該也知道，副司長，這個事情你應該知道嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們都很瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！我們以前的習慣就是都站在電扶梯的右手邊，左手邊則是留通道讓人走嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：你們沒事去公告兩側都可以站立，讓那些習慣了「右側站立、左側通行」的人，被兩個並排站立在電扶梯的人阻礙，導致發生爭吵，這個並沒有法律的規範，你只是做一個宣導而已喔，到現在還爭論不休，這個事情解決了嗎？"],["胡副司長廸琦：跟委員報告，這個主要是臺北捷運啦，當初他們為了效率，希望大家靠右側站立，可是後來發現站立者全在右側，留左側讓人通行，這也會造成旅客的不安全，所以他們現在已經在做宣導，就是不用特別站在右邊，而是兩邊都可以站。據我了解，這個觀念臺北捷運公司有持續一直在做宣導，但是因為大家習慣已久，這個過程可能需要一段時間來做改變，不過慢慢已經開始有在做一些改變了。"],["劉委員建國：慢慢改變嘛，要宣導嘛，對不對？"],["胡副司長廸琦：對。"],["劉委員建國：差不多需要多久的時間？"],["胡副司長廸琦：這個主要是臺北市的部分啦，我們會……"],["劉委員建國：臺北市有很多三鐵共構的站體嘛，對不對？"],["胡副司長廸琦：對，但是過去……"],["劉委員建國：搭捷運的時候是這樣，搭高鐵的時候是另外那樣，搭臺鐵又是另外一個樣子，我是臺灣人，怎麼會三種公共運輸的電扶梯的狀況都不一樣？搭捷運的電扶梯要這樣，搭高鐵的電扶梯不用這樣，搭臺鐵的電扶梯也不用這樣，光是電扶梯的事情就搞到這種程度，這要怎麼處理？所以我一直講黃委員剛剛提到的就是重中之重啊！你們今天來應該是準備好了啊！但你們這樣的答復，我們今天修這個法好像對你們的幫助也不是很大耶！","次長，你要再說明喔？注意！你一直叫我注意，你就注意這個事情，我看你怎麼答復。"],["呂次長建德：委員，我簡單講啦，有關於圖示的部分，其實各國規定的不一樣，例如法國，法國還有一個就是傷兵，他們非常注重受傷的部分，你看那五個圖示中有一個就是傷兵啦。"],["劉委員建國：是啦！"],["呂次長建德：各國的情況不一樣，我們也會趕快，當然這個主要是交通部那邊負責，但是身權法是我們轄管的，我們會趕快協調交通部儘快把相關的logo確定下來，這是第一點。","第二點是宣傳的部分，誠如剛才黃秀芳委員所講的，不是只有改名而已，我們也是要趕快來做宣傳，這個部分雖然……"],["劉委員建國：對！但你們只剩一千多萬而已，全部都要花在這邊嗎？你全部用在這裡也不一定看得到效果，但如果你要全部用在這裡，我全力支持。"],["呂次長建德：不會啦，我們……"],["劉委員建國：還是要處理啊！還是要處理！"],["呂次長建德：好，我們來……"],["劉委員建國：1,750萬還是要全部放在這個地方，不夠的就交通部一起來嘛，對不對？當然是這樣嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對，兩部一起。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["劉委員建國：一個星期內啦，好不好？把你們具體的宣傳方式，還有統一的圖卡標示，甚至於每一個車廂在一定程度下都要定時去廣播等等等，諸如此類的相關詳細計畫，請提供給委員會做參考，好不好？拜託，儘速一致性啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：第二個問題，抱歉，一樣還是要給部長看一下，剛剛次長講得很好啦，有關服務的內容，剛剛林月琴委員提供了很詳細的數據資料，要一致性，而次長特別提到，次長，你注意了，你特別提到個人助理是屬於……對不起，兩個層次嘛，一個是生活照顧，屬於長照這一塊來處理的；另外一個是屬於社會參與面向嘛。你看一下各縣市障礙者不提供個助協助項目的統計表，我們簡單講，以這七個項目來說，社會參與是哪幾項？你看是哪幾項？"],["呂次長建德：陪伴跟外出。"],["劉委員建國：陪伴跟外出嘛！新北市不提供，這樣他怎麼社會參與？你們剛剛為什麼沒有針對這個表去做答復？部長說要一致啊！以生活照顧來說，前四項應該都可以算是生活照顧，但這麼多縣市都不提供啊，你們剛剛針對這一塊怎麼都沒有做任何的答復？我們雲林縣幾乎全部都囊括耶！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，現在我們對於這個部分主要是有一個自立生活計畫，這個計畫主要是社工跟身心障礙者共同討論，要先去做需求評估嘛，了解身障者的狀況之後，訂定出一個照顧計畫……"],["劉委員建國：我知道。"],["呂次長建德：但是委員剛剛說的，確實是這樣，新北市不提供的陪伴跟外出，這是社會參與中很重要的……"],["劉委員建國：沒有的事我怎麼會提出來？我會提出來就表示確實是這樣啊！對於這樣的情況，你們要去恢復啊，要看怎麼處理、怎麼應變啊！"],["呂次長建德：今天會議結束之後，我趕快來跟……"],["劉委員建國：為什麼全國就只有新北市在社會參與這方面讓這些身障者朋友被限制住了？"],["呂次長建德：我在會後會趕快向新北市政府那邊進行了解，好不好？然後也回復給委員。"],["劉委員建國：因為時間的關係，我最後再請教部長跟次長，你們要答復我，如果我們一個政策形成，規劃都已經完整，然後執行也差不多近……我講5年就好了啦，在整個執行的過程裡面，預算執行數基本上都不到六成，我要請教部長，對業管單位、業管主管及業管承辦，你們要怎麼處理？你們的處置方式是怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：執行率低落一定要去檢討到底是什麼原因嘛。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！原因一定會很多啦，真的有窒礙難行的原因，相信大家也可以理解，但是連續5年的情況之下，就像現在這個，我的助理馬上就現底牌了，這個是剛來的。"],["邱部長泰源：對，這個當然就要去看各種原因，如果是可以……"],["劉委員建國：不然你就回答我什麼原因啊。","次長，你注意，你馬上回答我什麼原因。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個其實我們都有跟地方政府講，就是說在估的時候，我們希望能夠給身心障礙者用寬估的方式……"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["呂次長建德：我們核定的時數要讓人比較寬裕……"],["劉委員建國：是啦、是啦、是啦。"],["呂次長建德：讓他比較有餘裕，所以導致可能他在使用方面沒有那麼多。"],["劉委員建國：所以你核給他比較高，但是他使用就沒這麼多，所以你每一年都是這樣就對了？所以我們很有愛心，我們審查也放得很寬，但是實際上提出的需求就沒有這麼多，所以今年也這樣，去年也這樣，前年也這樣，再大前年也這樣，都不用檢討，原因就是這樣？"],["呂次長建德：沒有啦，也是要檢討。"],["劉委員建國：你若要回答我原因就是這樣，你如果很肯定的答復我，我就有另外一個問題要請教你了，是這樣嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我想當然這部分我們也要來檢討一下，看是不是有可能有不好用的地方，像剛才……"],["劉委員建國：這個數字……"],["呂次長建德：剛才委員說的新北市那邊，他們假使說在社會參與，沒辦法弄陪伴的那個，這樣我們自己就要檢討，這個部分……"],["劉委員建國：新北市的個助服務項目不同意外出這個部分，這個你們要去找新北市看如何去討論，然後去對新北市需要的個助不能外出的情況，對這些身心障礙者朋友如何……坦白講，在日本叫做謝罪啦。","我現在就請教你，你的核定總時數110年是309，111年是341，112年415，113年486，今年多少？你是節節上升喔，如果以113年對照112年，你是上升到將近百分之五十的成長，對不對？更寬的核定嘛，對啊，但是相對的實際使用時數，這邊表格都很清楚嘛，還是都占核定總數差不多五成多而已，一直都沒有超過嘛。所以代表的就是一句話：不好用啦，不好申請，應該是這樣，所以才有剛才廖委員放的那個8小時，我覺得事實上有辦法去凸顯每一個身心障礙者朋友在申請個助過程的真實狀況嗎？那倒未必。","你知道嗎？這個是對照，這個表格還不是很精細，前面一個叫預算嘛，對不對？我們的預算就是在這一個自立資源的大項裡面嘛……"],["呂次長建德：差不多3億。"],["劉委員建國：3億嘛，對啊，但是你知道你110年是多少嗎？現在114年是3億嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：113年多少？"],["呂次長建德：差不多兩億多。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，112年是不是更少？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！那110年是不是更少？簡單說就是逐年一直在增加，一直在增加，一直增加嘛，沒有錯，你如果要說實際使用的時數也有在增加……"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：但是這個增加跟你原本匡列多增加的預算相較起來合乎比例嗎？好像沒有喔。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，確實照這樣說起來，可能我們在這部分有一些雖然核定，但是可能不好用等等，這個部分我們回去檢討。"],["劉委員建國：對啦，我拜託一下好不好？不要跟這些很有需要個助的身心障礙者朋友，跟他們就幾個小時在斤斤計較啦，真的真的真的不需要這樣啦。我們有這個制度，我們有這個預算，我們有這個計畫，但是執行起來，當然你可以用另外一個角度再做另外一個討論，我還是覺得，當有這些預算的時候，在整個執行上一直出問題，有明顯的落差，而且我們這個面向的預算是年年節節上升的喔！但是我們看不到實際上今天，所有身心障礙者朋友覺得現行的作法可以符合他們真正的需要，不然今天不會有這個記者會嘛，所以我剛才就提醒你們了，這確實有問題嘛。所以這部分是不是可以，因為這個也不用等修法嘛，對不對？是不是一個禮拜內可以針對應變措施做一些相關的調整方案，提供給委員會做參考，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝部長、謝謝次長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：接下來請王正旭委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91ae077b3993832a7657f2aef3382ea3fb0afb45025fabe4623d00c4a962c37c3975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:54:20 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我這公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多 越容易讓人家想"},{"start":137.123,"end":161.51,"text":"想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的"},{"start":162.506,"end":188.316,"text":"那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長"},{"start":189.176,"end":206.481,"text":"這樣如果說今天有罷免團體 他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻 件數不到門檻他為了衝最後的期限可以送件 然後去騙取中選會的十天的補件期間"},{"start":208.061,"end":226.286,"text":"因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書法律論述 法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案所以我想對於假設性的事實問題對於假設性事實問題我們不會去做這個有意見的說明"},{"start":231.787,"end":260.304,"text":"那我想是否構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對個案的反對來啦 次長又回到個案了啦那次長講一個我剛剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是"},{"start":261.304,"end":290.624,"text":"個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷啦我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個事我到時候說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案"},{"start":292.204,"end":315.911,"text":"那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛"},{"start":318.152,"end":335.957,"text":"那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自"},{"start":337.617,"end":362.391,"text":"去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署"},{"start":363.752,"end":375.366,"text":"因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書麻煩次長你不敢回答我就算了沒關係啦我跟你講啦反正現在很多"},{"start":378.735,"end":396.534,"text":"很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解我都尊重好那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那"},{"start":396.994,"end":419.167,"text":"如果是一二階連署單上面 肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊 中選會不應該一句話說 我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選 而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政 那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個"},{"start":422.068,"end":450.105,"text":"議法行政的行政機關不過我對於李紀勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得就是我們還是都希望國家好"},{"start":450.947,"end":451.089,"text":"阿娜"},{"start":452.113,"end":480.841,"text":"後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個那個城鎮中學嗎對不對次長也有去嘛那城鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪那"},{"start":481.843,"end":510.618,"text":"上次去完到現在 部裡面有做任何的改革嗎請次長回答一下那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在那邊我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師"},{"start":511.738,"end":539.416,"text":"他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為那個很多的這個說的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導那尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦那個有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的那這個部分呢我也請他們提出具體的方案那我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣好吧"},{"start":541.017,"end":560.48,"text":"這樣也沒有講得很具體啦 但是我想說齁 因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛 白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題 包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔"},{"start":562.161,"end":588.09,"text":"那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊"},{"start":589.33,"end":616.255,"text":"這個陳振中學師辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長"},{"start":616.815,"end":631.342,"text":"那個研判可能性那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的那個青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的還有一個原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少共犯"},{"start":632.282,"end":648.369,"text":"突然增加很多有關係這個問題我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面"},{"start":650.03,"end":666.818,"text":"幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛"},{"start":667.478,"end":696.838,"text":"所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個陳鎮忠學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都"},{"start":697.639,"end":712.8,"text":"都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告那另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報他有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減"},{"start":713.962,"end":740.413,"text":"所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉嫌上學校去啊那我想 次長你知道應該知道轉嫌的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因"},{"start":741.573,"end":765.992,"text":"再用書面來回覆您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是會成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校嘛"},{"start":766.272,"end":792.749,"text":"就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來處理那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條 五 七 八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據"},{"start":796.051,"end":817.265,"text":"這部分要麻煩你們給我最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例 人數比例的問題就是借戶人數比例的問題因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上"},{"start":818.206,"end":840.299,"text":"那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監"},{"start":841.4,"end":861.559,"text":"他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡啊所以他們當時有集體抗議嘛"},{"start":862.439,"end":869.402,"text":"還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了"},{"start":878.286,"end":895.35,"text":"那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是會將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況"},{"start":900.726,"end":925.411,"text":"跟委員報告 委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突 一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們 我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能"},{"start":925.951,"end":951.547,"text":"因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治"},{"start":953.348,"end":975.286,"text":"其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊"},{"start":975.626,"end":993.98,"text":"各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想"},{"start":994.921,"end":1015.828,"text":"那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有講如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子"},{"start":1018.089,"end":1019.172,"text":"非常敬佩署長 署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員 這個改革都還沒有起"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時54分）謝謝主席。麻煩次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我先延續王鴻薇委員的問題。上次王義川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書，當時我也請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員，北檢也馬上分案調查。對這部分，法務部可能也要督導一下，讓地檢署該分案的就一定要分案。","我另外建議，為避免紛爭，這種案件盡量不要指分，盡量用輪分的方式處理，好嗎？對過往所偵辦的這些案子，我一些心裡話一直沒有對外講。其實承辦檢察官以前在群組裡常常做一些政治發言，他們的政治傾向我們都很了解，但我尊重檢方辦案。次長應該知道，從之前到現在，我一直沒有去論述這件事情，因為我尊重每一位檢察官各自的政治傾向。但我們也期待檢察官在辦案的時候，不要把自己的政治傾向放到公務裡面，我們自己以前是這樣一路走過來的！我們有自己的政治傾向，但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理！就像陳瑞仁大學長，他說他是深綠的，他的政治傾向是深綠，但在辦案時，其政治傾向只在投票所的帷幕欄裡，出了投票所，在公務上一定秉公處理。所以我不會批評那些檢察官平常在群組裡的發言與論述，不過辦案時至少要能持平辦案。可以的話，這個案子就儘量不要用指分，用輪分的方式處理。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，我們的立場與基本態度都跟委員類似，我們會尊重地檢署的作業，也尊重檢察官辦案的權限……"],["吳委員宗憲：這是公開呼籲，我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式，只是有時候介入越多越容易讓人家想很多，所以最好的方式就是一切依法，用電腦輪分。用電腦輪分，大家比較沒有意見。","第二個我想請教次長，次長也是學有專精的法律人，次長在法律上非常專業。我想請教一個問題，因為大家一直在講二階連署的時候，有非常多人跟一階是重複的，依照規定，一、二階的連署人不能是同一個人嘛。當然中選會是說，這個部分是依法剔除，所以他們不告發，我在這邊請教，我先說明一個啦，如果因為民眾不了解我國的法制規定，而去就一階及二階重複去做連署，這當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊，我想請教一下次長，如果說今天有罷免團體，他們為了拚最後送件的期限，因為連署的人數還不到門檻，件數不到門檻，他們為了衝最後的期限可以送件，然後去騙取中選會10天的補件期間，因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去，那請問一下這個有沒有構成偽造文書？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：法律論述、法律論述、法律論述。"],["黃次長世杰：因為這個很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案，所以我想對於假設性的事實問題……"],["吳委員宗憲：法律論述，報告次長，你不要在……"],["黃次長世杰：對於假設性事實問題，我們不會去做預先的說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在請教……"],["黃次長世杰：我想是否構成偽造文書，我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢察官他們對個案的判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長又回到個案了啦！"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我剛剛講很簡單嘛，如果今天連署團體，它簽了一階，簽了別人的名字進去連署，這樣有沒有構成偽造文書？這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候，講得很大聲啊，還說是集團……"],["黃次長世杰：我想法務部從來沒有針對任何一個個案，去對這些事情做出……不管是個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷，我們不是在考試啦，這個都是個案啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我本來滿尊重您對法律的理解，如果次長連這個是偽造文書都講不出口。好吧，政次就是政次的樣子嘛，謝謝次長。"],["黃次長世杰：不好意思，因為我們是法務部啦，我們是做法務行政……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我剛剛一直說……"],["黃次長世杰：所以剛剛回答的部分……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我沒有講個案，我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：我只是請教次長，這個是一個法律的通案嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：這是一個法律的通案，好，如果今天不要講說這跟連署有關，那我問你嘛，A沒有同意他的名字去做連署，那B把A的名字抄去做連署，這樣有沒有構成偽造文書？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，您說的這個就是在考試嘛，就是做一個考題嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我一直講法律論述啊。"],["黃次長世杰：我想委員也是學有專精啦，當然刑法上這個構不構成，你也很清楚嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，你又丟回來，那我跟次長報告，次長既然還是不願意回答，那我跟次長報告……"],["黃次長世杰：不敢。"],["吳委員宗憲：以我對於法律的理解，中選會主委說的是廢話，中選會主委說這個部分、二階有重複連署的部分不告發，但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自去做第二次的連署，民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署，這當然是沒有構成偽造文書，但是如果有……坊間現在一直在傳的是，罷免團體他們為了要拚送件的門檻、件數，因為那個日期快到了，先讓件數過關，過關以後拿到補件期的10天，他們再趕快繼續拚連署，因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話，這個構成偽造文書！沒關係，次長，你不敢回答我，就算了！"],["黃次長世杰：沒關係，我尊重委員的描述跟對於法律問題的見解。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係啦，我跟你講啦，反正現在很多側翼的律師，他們有很特殊的法律見解，我都尊重。"],["黃次長世杰：他們有他們個別的見解，大家都是言論自由。"],["吳委員宗憲：我這邊要講，目前我對法律的理解就是這樣，而且我為我……一直以來，我的個性就是這樣，我為我說過的每一句話負責。好，如果有這個狀況，其實就應該要查緝啦。"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是一、二階連署單上面，肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣，其實中選會不應該一句話說「我不予告發」，我認為這是一個不負責任的中選會，而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會，公務機關應該要依法行政，如果是這種態度的話，我實在不認為這是一個依法行政的行政機關。"],["黃次長世杰：我想地方選委會跟中選會他們有沒有做這個查對，我們尊重他們的說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：不過，我對於李進勇主委的評價，一路以來我沒有變過，我對他的評價就是那樣子，他真的是……貴黨有非常多傑出的人才，也有很多至少是還算公正的人才，今天會請一個非常不公正的人去擔任一個獨立機關的主委，我也是覺得……就是我們還是都希望國家好啦。","後面我再請教一下次長，回到今天的議題啦，因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答王鴻薇委員。次長，前兩個禮拜我們不是有去誠正中學嗎，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長也有去嘛，誠正中學當時有說他們有很多問題，譬如空間以及人力等等，請問一下次長，您知不知道到底問題出在哪裡？上次去完之後到現在，部裡面有做任何的改革嗎？請次長回答。"],["黃次長世杰：誠正中學主要提出的是他們的空間改善，因為他們的空間很老舊，而且過去的規劃跟現在不一樣，他們現在已經啟動了部分，其實當天我們去看的時候都有圍起來嘛，所以他們現在已經有做一部分的改善，後續我們……他們有跟矯正署報相關的後續計畫，矯正署也都會做。另外，他們有提出來的部分，就是那天也有老師嘛，他們有提出來一些關於輔導的空間，因為很多收容的學生，他們可能需要個別的心理輔導，尤其特別在女生的部分，其實應該不是女生啦，而是有一些部分會有隱私、隔離的問題等等，這個部分，我們也請他們提出具體的方案，我們會請矯正署就經費的部分予以協助，這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，因為次長也沒有講得很具體啦，但是我想說，因為時間也滿短的，當天大家也吃了現場小朋友做的麵包，我們不能白吃他們的麵包嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們一定會協助。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的這些問題，包括空間，還有收容學生暴增的問題。我請教一下次長一個問題，誠正中學從2024年初到現在，突然暴增了112個收容的學生，等於是多了七成耶，但是我國的青少年犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊，次長有沒有發現，或有沒有去研究，到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加？但是它跟我們國內青少年的犯罪率，兩個搭不上啊，請問次長。"],["黃次長世杰：誠正中學是辦感化教育，所以它的學生來源是少年法庭的法官裁定，之後他就會進來這樣子，所以這個可能跟法官的裁定的方向有所調整有關係，也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年事件，可能使得法官認為要增加利用感化教育這個工具，來協助輔導這些少年。"],["吳委員宗憲：這是次長研判的可能性嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：對，我推測的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個部分可不可以一個月內給我們回復一下報告？請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增。"],["黃次長世杰：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為它跟我們青少年的犯罪率其實是搭不上的，原因出在哪裡？"],["黃次長世杰：還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯、兒少共犯突然間增加很多有關係，但這個部分我請他們去做具體的分析，再給委員回復。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有啊，這個問題不是2024年初到現在耶，你說的這個問題是已經好多年了。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是只有去年到現在才突然暴增的新的犯罪類型，所以要麻煩一下，我想在這個報告裡面，也幫我們稍微加入正職跟代課老師的比例，還有師資流動不穩定的原因，也幫我們研究一下。"],["黃次長世杰：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有就是，因為我們知道小朋友在那邊，其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛，所以這個部分你們是不是有跟教育部、衛福部或是勞動部合作，這些合作單位是怎麼合作的？也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下。"],["黃次長世杰：這個跟委員報告，關於那一天的簡報，事實上它的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入啦，所以我有請誠正中學再把數字做正確一點……"],["吳委員宗憲：那也麻煩次長，次長，我們要求大家、行政機關做出……我辦公室的習慣，每一份報告來，我們都會深入去研究。"],["黃次長世杰：瞭解。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不是說隨便喊一個你報告給我們，然後我們就不管了，每一個報告我們都會深入去研究，所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告。"],["黃次長世杰：好，會的、會的。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，還有一個就是說，當天誠正中學校長的簡報有提到110年到112年轉學學生的比例，從70到61到48，等於是一直在遞減，所以有過半的學生離開之後，並沒有轉銜上學校去啊，次長，你應該知道轉銜的重要性……"],["黃次長世杰：這個有一些問題，因為他們其實很多在出校的時候，他可能已經成年啦，或是之類其他的問題，但是剛剛我有跟委員報告說，這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致，所以我會請誠正中學把正確的數字，跟剛剛委員垂詢的原因，再用書面來回復委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：您說的部分人是成年沒有錯，但是有一些也是未成年，是不是我們可以把他轉去一些技職學校等等的，讓他能夠更好的回歸社會？有人不愛唸書，我們可以理解，但是我們國家有非常多技職學校，是不是能夠好好地去盯一下他們有沒有轉銜？對於想唸書的就轉銜回學校，不想唸書的就轉銜到技職學校，這對國家才有幫助啊！"],["黃次長正杰：是，我想大部分都是去技職學校，所以如果他有意願的話，我們一定都會來處理、來幫忙。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，你們一定要盯，因為我跟你講，兒童及少年受安置輔導或感化教育之學籍轉銜及復學辦法第五條、第七條、第八條這3條其實有提到，法務部在他離開矯正學校前的一個月內，本來就要召開輔導會議，然後他到學校去之後的一個月內也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議。"],["黃次長正杰：會追蹤。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們一定會有這個數據，這個部分要麻煩你們給我。"],["黃次長正杰：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後，不好意思，再給我一點點的時間，就是那個人數比例的問題。"],["黃次長正杰：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：有關戒護人數比例，上個禮拜矯正署有來這邊談一些戒護人數的比例，我再回去找了一些資料，我發現臺灣的戒護比其實比鄰近的國家超過兩倍以上。當然我知道現在找這個戒護人力本來就不容易，公務員現在愈來愈沒有人想要當，更何況這個要住在裡面，然後有時候在裡面手機也因為屏蔽訊號也收不到，跟家人也會斷了聯繫，有一些人不喜歡這樣的工作，或是家人不允許這樣的工作，這些我們可以理解，但是這會是一個大問題。","然後我又看到高雄女監，晚上的管理員有18人，除了輪班跟睡覺的之外，一個人要管三百多個收容人，所以裡面只要有一點點小事情就會出大事。更何況去年6月的時候，不就曾經發生過……因為女監不能好好洗澡，所以他們當時有集體抗議，還有噴辣椒水什麼的才把那個壓制下來，所以這會是一個問題。","以前我當檢察官的時候會去視察監獄，於是就發現一個狀況，現在監獄裡面的受刑人很多年紀都很大了，因為大家的平均餘命愈來愈長，所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病、精神疾病等等的問題，都是現在監所要面臨的。如果我們的戒護比又愈來愈少，監所將來發生問題的狀況可能會變多，不知道部裡有沒有發現這個狀況？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題，因為有一些有精神疾病的，他會跟人家產生衝突，要一直送違規舍。我們當然有培德院區可收精神分裂症，但也要是比較嚴重的才收，因此我上任之後就要擴充它的量能，於是藉由性侵犯刑後治療的大肚山莊，已經移出去了，所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病犯人的地方，讓床位更多一點，現在我們也增加了不少的床位，將來會紓解一些包括反社會人格，尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人，會常常跟人家打架的這些我們會收治。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝署長。署長，這段時間我發現署長非常認真，而且在獄政改革上用了很多心，但因為署長下個月要榮退了，我也很擔心這個改革，或是這個對收容人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果？回歸社會對國家會不會有正向的影響？我也會擔心有沒有辦法銜接上去啊！"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我想我們部長會慎重選擇，比如說在中央機關有歷練，而且是現職所謂的八大典獄長具有經驗的，我們會薪火相傳，繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我希望部裡面能夠再給我一份數據的報告，就是剛剛提到的那個轉銜減少的報告一定要給我一份，還有如果有問題的話怎麼改善、還有配套措施怎麼做？以及戒護比再麻煩給我們一份。","最後，謝謝署長，署長為國家奉獻一輩子，非常敬佩署長，祝署長退休愉快。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。這個改革都還沒有起步，還有很長的一段路。其實我都一直這樣覺得，每一個人有每一個人成長的背景，小時候我在鄉下，以前是有管訓隊，我看那些犯人都在挑石頭，長大之後這些事就沒有了、沒有這種現象了，這其實就是一種進步。我們現在也揚棄了特別權力關係，但問題是畢竟受刑人還是不一樣。","再次強調，為什麼我們司法及法制委員會一直要排這些考察？其實我們還是會繼續排下去，會排下去的原因，其實除了整個獄政的改革以外，受刑人犯了罪，接受國家的應報，這本來就有應報，可是我們又認為他要回歸社會，所以要教育又有矯正，這個考驗著整個矯正署，真的也確實是「石磨仔心」，也不是只偏重管理。","像我個人最常收到的就是要尿布的，個案都是要尿布啊！我一看就有七成、八成，全部都是受刑人啊！但是犯罪的人其實都有他的背景，他們的態樣都比較不一樣，所以到最後我們今天為什麼很多委員，連國民黨的委員也會出來，已經不再像前面那麼肅殺了，就是說你這個犯罪的人，你就是該怎麼樣，全部都要嚴懲、都要什麼。這已經到獄政的部分、已經判決確定了，所以對於這個穿著囚衣的國民，其基本人權到底要給到什麼地方？剛好矯正署也認為，這個是屬於基本的……他基本生活的這個部分是國家要去編預算，但這個基本生活到底是到哪裡？大家對這個也可以一併思考。","今天已進入尾聲，接下來我們請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","我們所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料，或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員楊瓊瓔、蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a07884d1c6f809dd7b85017248ed72d8dafb45025fabe4623739ca4563886b2115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:57:48 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昨天賴清德總統開啟他的國安史獎第一獎特別提到台灣的經濟產業很棒裡面有一個是有提到我們的扣件產業像螺絲 螺帽 外銷比例到九成工具機是全世界第三大但現在因為川普政策關稅政策的關係所以這些產業其實都受到一些衝擊"},{"start":52.877,"end":59.186,"text":"導動部在6月16號的時候發布一個最新的資料說我們現在五星價已經有160家企業共2895人受到影響那其中製造業的影響很大"},{"start":68.519,"end":83.812,"text":"那特別是直接針對直接是因為對等關稅影響的裡面呢也是以製造業居多然後金屬機械是重災區那所以我們現在必須要趕快來把這個川普的關稅政策把它處理好 但是我看到"},{"start":84.612,"end":105.267,"text":"部長你前兩天有接受媒體訪問就說現在有兩個很大的變數那這兩個變數感覺上好像都沒有一個答案所以國分看就很緊張第一個你有提到說美國要等到跟日本、韓國、歐盟、越南等大國談完之後才會有一個比較明確答案這個是你受訪的時候講的沒錯"},{"start":107.28,"end":131.281,"text":"報告委員 我想變數不會說只有一個有兩個啦 我是說其實對我現在只是討論一個甚至更多啦那我們是在講說有這兩個變數會影響我們在關稅的談判那第一個我覺得像第一項聽起來就會蠻緊張的因為我記得當時川普關稅政策剛出來的時候政府一直告訴國人說大家放心因為我們是在第一批談判名單裡面"},{"start":132.202,"end":140.504,"text":"仍然是第一批盤旦然後一直釋出訊息告訴我們說沒問題啊 我們可以很快談完那時候還講說什麼選對人 走對路 選錯人關稅125啊講了很多口號但現在眼看7月8號關稅暫緩期就要到了"},{"start":151.567,"end":180.645,"text":"但現在政府又告訴大家說我們要等到其他國家談完我們才可能會有個比較明確答案那像日本 日本現在態度很硬啊跟美國在談的時候立場也談得很硬啊感覺時間就要拖到很久啊所以這樣的一個進度我覺得大家會真的非常憂心特別是我剛剛有提到有一些無心價都已經出來了嘛然後第二個部長你有提到還有一個變數是我們要想要知道美國真正想要什麼他到底希望透過關稅政策解決什麼樣的問題對不對"},{"start":181.636,"end":201.765,"text":"那不知道就你的了解他到底想要什麼美國大概這一次的關稅大概有三個面向第一個解決他的貿易的問題第二個解決他金融失衡的問題第三個解決他製造空洞化的問題所以我們要了解在這三個面向裡面到底其中的比率大概是什麼樣子"},{"start":202.685,"end":219.644,"text":"那我們能夠提供給美國的他所需要的這個部分我們可以給他多少的成分那我相信這個是有助於我們在談判的時候可以比其他的國家跟美國在談判的時候我們可以取得優勢我要跟委員報告的是我們"},{"start":220.705,"end":243.18,"text":"在這一次的這個關稅談判的過程裡面總統跟院長我們都在實際的下鄉去了解所有的產業他們到底他們的痛點在哪裡那麼所以我們才會盤出六大傳統產業他們可能會面臨到這個衝擊所以我們這一次的這一個特別預算也是根據這個衝擊來編列的謝謝"},{"start":247.123,"end":269.235,"text":"其實您現在講的東西跟那個時候川普關稅政策剛提出來的東西都差不多啦等於說這兩個月過去我們沒有發現有什麼新的進展那當然政府可能會覺得我們不能夠向外界透露訊息可是你看國際的例子比如說日本日本他們很多訊息在國內都有討論因為國內的輿情就是我們談判代表對外的籌碼"},{"start":270.461,"end":294.645,"text":"所以我會覺得國人擔心的地方就在這邊說是不是我們其實沒有什麼進展就不能講到時候7月8號開盲盒啊就說啊我們就這樣談啦然後很多談判的立場並沒有站在台灣的角度都是我看我們官員講話都是一副就是什麼台灣美國的繁榮不能沒有台灣啊什麼台灣要什麼台美共榮好像都站在美國的角度我覺得這個是大家比較擔心的部分啊"},{"start":295.265,"end":318.723,"text":"然後再來 其中還有 我覺得關稅政策到目前為止都沒有定案對於汽車產業也會受影響 買車的也會受影響因為現在很多買車都在觀望不曉得說到底汽車的價錢會怎麼樣 會不會降下來所以觀望的態度非常的重那我看到經濟部講說在跟美國談判的話要先確定關稅再談貨物稅 是這樣嗎"},{"start":321.179,"end":335.092,"text":"報告委員汽車關稅減帳的部分我想影響還是可以控制的那我們在做一些推論的時候在關稅因為我們對小客車整車並沒有外銷美國"},{"start":335.993,"end":361.155,"text":"所以美國的車照台灣來的比重也不高所以我們要怎麼談到底是談出來這個關稅只適合台美之間的這樣的適用的關稅還是因為我們是WTO的國家我們是不是這個關稅談下來以後要因為其他國家會不會比照嘛那所以這個部分我們都會關心部長這樣子齁因為你們的產發署的那個署長講說"},{"start":363.578,"end":387.723,"text":"美英有一個談判架構協議就是說他們談的就是適用美國跟英國他說我們可不可以比照但那個是他想的啦我們能比照也不是我們自己說的算嘛所以其他國家這個是我們可以參考在談判上面的使用問題是實際上到WTO能不能又是另外一回事嘛所以其實談關稅的變數很大第二個關稅其實不是只有稅率的問題還有配額的問題嘛"},{"start":389.463,"end":412.517,"text":"我們現在美國進口車進來一年是75輛是限額到時候美國又跟你講說要談關稅是不是除了稅率之外限額也要提高所以這個事情並不是部長你講的對台灣企業產業的衝擊就只有說您剛講那個這麼簡單我覺得那個是很複雜的問題我反而是建議說你可以先討論貨物稅因為貨物稅是進口車本土的車都降"},{"start":416.579,"end":432.591,"text":"都這樣情況之下對於汽車產業影響比較小而且國人買車比較便宜所以對於經濟部這樣的談判順序我認為不應該是要等到關稅談完之後再談貨物稅經濟部應該要跟產業部說其實我們可以先從降貨物稅開始做起"},{"start":434.368,"end":454.902,"text":"謝謝委員這一部分我想我們都會參考來作為將來這個施政的一個方式這個不是參考將來啦因為現在正在進行其實我們是蠻強烈建議經營部趕快跟財政部說貨物稅現在就可以降了那你可以用降貨物稅這個角度去跟美國人講嘛到時候美國車進來之後也會比較便宜啊否則你關稅談會很複雜要等比較久"},{"start":460.726,"end":473.765,"text":"然後還有 最後我再問一個能源問題因為最近高雄有一個光電的案子引起國人很大的關注就是高雄大樹區不知道你們有沒有看到那個畫面它一片山頭上面全部被蓋光電板"},{"start":474.588,"end":500.321,"text":"後來剛市政府講說那個是什麼廠商過度開發但實際上很多人講在那個山頭可以把樹這樣砍掉然後光電板放上去那麼一大片就是一個很奇怪的事情因為按照規定如果你的坡度超過30%的話就應該要限制開發所以光電板可以鋪這麼多可以核准也很怪啦那鋪成我當然知道說你沒有壓力啦因為可能你在2026年你要達到綠電20%嘛"},{"start":502.162,"end":527.844,"text":"所以這個部分要積極在推可是如果推綠電造成環境破壞這樣也不好啦所以這個部分經營部有沒有去有一些新的做法出來嗎有 我們就是配合這個整個的這個法規法規的規定那它已經超過它被允許的這個範圍我們當然去制止禁止它再開發下去這是第一個那我們"},{"start":529.521,"end":557.63,"text":"經濟部基本上還是合法合規一定再把法放在前面那這個整個的進行的過程裡面我想謝謝委員的關注我們也非常的重視這個雖然我們對綠電的需求非常的強大但是我們絕不允許業者可以違法違規所以這個違法違規的部分就是我們在處理的重點我們快速在處理這件事情所以不可能它再開發下去"},{"start":558.51,"end":577.236,"text":"我們不希望說類似的案例一直不斷發生啦因為這個案子其實已經進行了好幾年了是最近因為被爆發出來而且那個空拍圖看起來非常的嚇人所以社會開始討論政府才開始有作為啦我們希望說其他案子也不要發生一樣的狀況啦是 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時57分）主席好，麻煩請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。昨天賴清德總統開啟他的國安十講的第一講，特別提到臺灣的經濟產業很棒，裡面提到我們的扣件產業，像螺絲、螺帽的外銷比例達到九成，工具機是全世界第三大，但現在因為川普關稅政策的關係，所以這些產業其實都受到一些衝擊。","勞動部在6月16號發布一個最新的資料，我們現在無薪假已經有160家企業，共2,895人受到影響，其中製造業的影響很大，特別是直接受到對等關稅影響的也是以製造業居多，金屬機械是重災區，所以我們現在必須要趕快來把川普的關稅政策處理好。但是我看到部長前兩天有接受媒體訪問，你說現在有兩個很大的變數，這兩個變數感覺上好像都沒有一個答案，所以國人看了很緊張，譬如說第一個，你提到美國要等到跟日本、韓國、歐盟、越南等大國談完之後才會有一個比較明確答案，這個是你受訪時講的，沒錯吧？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，變數不會只有一個……"],["葉委員元之：有兩個啦，我現在只討論一個……"],["郭部長智輝：甚至還有更多，我是講這兩個變數會影響我們在關稅的談判……"],["葉委員元之：是。第一個，我覺得像第一項聽起來就會蠻緊張的，因為我記得當時川普關稅政策剛出來的時候，政府一直告訴國人：請大家放心，因為我們是在第一批談判名單裡面。然後……"],["郭部長智輝：我們仍然是在第一批談判名單。"],["葉委員元之：對，然後一直釋出訊息，告訴我們說沒問題，我們可以很快談完。那時候還講說什麼選對人、走對路；選錯人、關稅125。講了很多口號，但現在眼看7月8號關稅暫緩期就要到了，現在政府又告訴大家，要等到其他國家談完，我們才可能會有一個比較明確答案。但是像日本，日本現在態度很硬，他們跟美國談的時候立場踩得很硬，感覺時間要拖很久，所以對於這樣一個進度，大家真的會非常憂心，特別是我剛剛提到的，有一些無薪假已經出來了。第二個，部長還有提到一個變數，就是我們要知道美國真正想要什麼，他到底希望透過關稅政策解決什麼樣的問題，對不對？不知道就你的了解，他到底想要什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：美國這一次的關稅大概有三個面向，第一個是解決他的貿易問題；第二個解決他金融失衡的問題；第三個解決他製造空洞化的問題。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們要了解在這三個面向裡面，到底其中的比例是什麼樣子？又我們能夠提供給美國所需要的這個部分，可以有多少成分？我相信這有助於我們在談判的時候，可以比其他國家取得較好優勢。我要跟委員報告的是，在這次關稅談判的過程中，我們跟總統、院長都有實際下鄉去了解所有產業，到底他們的痛點在哪裡？所以我們才會盤出六大傳統產業可能會面臨到衝擊，而這一次的特別預算，也是根據這個衝擊編列的。"],["葉委員元之：部長，謝謝，其實您現在講的，跟川普關稅政策剛提出來時講的都差不多，等於是兩個月過去了，我們沒有發現有什麼新的進展，當然政府可能會覺得有些政策不能向外界透露訊息，可是你看國際的例子，比如日本，日本他們很多訊息在國內都有討論，因為國內的輿情就是談判代表對外的籌碼，所以我會覺得國人擔心的地方就在這邊，是不是我們其實沒有什麼進展，所以不能講，到時候7月8號開盲盒，就說我們就這樣談了，然後很多談判的立場並沒有站在臺灣的角度，我看我們官員講話都是一副什麼美國的繁榮不能沒有臺灣、臺灣要什麼臺美共榮等等，好像都是站在美國的角度，我覺得這是大家比較擔心的部分。","再來，關稅政策到目前為止沒有定案，我們的汽車產業會受影響，買車的人也會受影響，現在很多買車的人都在觀望，因為不曉得到底汽車的價錢會怎麼樣、會不會降下來？所以觀望的情形非常重，我看到經濟部說針對與美國的談判，要先確定關稅，再談貨物稅，是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：這個是產發署講的。"],["郭部長智輝：汽車關稅減讓的部分，影響我們還是可以控制的，我們有做一些推論，因為我們的小客車整車並沒有外銷美國，而美國車到臺灣來的比重也不高，所以要怎麼談？到底談出來的關稅只適合臺美之間適用，還是因為我們是WTO國家，這個關稅談下來以後，要因應……"],["葉委員元之：其他國家會不會比照嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們都會關心。"],["葉委員元之：部長，這樣子啦！因為產發署署長提到美英有一個談判架構協議，就是他們談的就適用美國跟英國，他提到我們可不可以比照？當然這是他想的，我們能不能比照也不是我們說了算，至於其他國……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我們可以reference，我們可以參考，在談判上使用……"],["葉委員元之：對啦！問題是實際上到WTO能不能又是另外一回事，所以其實談關稅的變數很大。第二，關稅其實不是只有稅率問題，還有配額問題，現在美國車進口一年是75輛限額，到時候美國跟我們談關稅稅率之外，限額也要提高，所以這個事情並不是如部長講的，對臺灣企業、產業的衝擊就只有您剛剛講的那麼簡單，我覺得那是很複雜的問題，我反而建議我們可以先討論貨物稅，因為貨物稅是進口車、本土車都降，在都降的情況之下，對於汽車產業影響比較小，而且國人買車比較便宜，所以對於經濟部這樣的談判順序，我認為不應該等到關稅談完之後再談貨物稅，經濟部應該要跟財政部說，其實可以先從降貨物稅開始做起。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，這部分我們都會參考，作為將來施政的方式。"],["葉委員元之：這個不是將來的參考，因為是現在正在進行式，其實我們是滿強烈建議經濟部趕快跟財政部說調降貨物稅，你可以用降貨物稅這個角度去跟美國人談，到時候美國車進來之後也會變比較便宜，否則關稅談會很複雜，也要等比較久。","最後我再問一個能源問題，最近高雄有一個光電案子引起國人很大關注，就是在高雄大樹區，不知道部長有沒有看到那個畫面，一片山頭上全部蓋滿光電板，後來高雄市政府說那個是廠商過度開發，但實際上有很多人講，在那個山頭可以把樹這樣砍掉，然後光電板放上去那麼一大片，就是一個很奇怪的事情，因為按照規定，如果坡度超過30%就應該限制開發，所以光電板鋪這麼多可以核准，也很怪。我當然知道部長你們有壓力，因為2026年我們的綠電要達到20%，所以你們是積極在推，可是如果推綠電而造成環境破壞，這樣也不好，這個部分經濟部有沒有一些新的作法出來？"],["郭部長智輝：有，我們就是配合整個法規規定，如果已經超過被允許的範圍，我們當然是制止，禁止他再開發下去，這是第一個。經濟部基本上還是合法、合規，一定要把法放在前面，整個進行的過程中，也謝謝委員的關注，我們也非常重視這個議題，雖然我們對綠電需求非常強大，但也絕不允許業者可以違法、違規，所以這個違法、違規的部分，就是我們處理的重點，我們正快速在處理這件事情，不可能讓他再開發下去。"],["葉委員元之：我們不希望類似案例一直不斷發生，這個案子其實已經進行好幾年了，最近才被爆發出來，而且那空拍圖看起來非常嚇人，所以社會開始討論，政府也才開始有作為，我們希望其他案子不要發生一樣的狀況。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢。委員謝龍介、邱鎮軍、張嘉郡、徐欣瑩、邱議瑩、翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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這邊有請國發會的詹副主委"},{"start":21.357,"end":40.913,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":41.533,"end":59.538,"text":"少子女化的问题已经提高到行政院层级了那么是由当时的是由政务委员陈时中来负责统筹相关的作为这个统筹相关的权责部会也就是交由行政院的社会福利推动委员会来主办"},{"start":59.918,"end":81.329,"text":"那麼現在本席想了解就是說因為你依照國發會組織法第二條第六款的規定其實國發會它是主管人力資源發展政策那麼就之前的這個處長的詢答說已經不包括少子女化政策了那麼現在我們今天討論的這個高齡化或是超高齡化的相關的政策推動是不是仍然是屬於國發會的主責"},{"start":84.524,"end":102.63,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我們的業務當然會有跟人力、高齡化、少子化這些業務相關,這個沒錯但是因為有些議題它的重要性蠻高的,所以像我們上次應該是人力處處長回覆委員的意思就是說,像少子化這個問題"},{"start":103.69,"end":119.926,"text":"其實還有高齡化這個問題 其實他們的層次都是在行政院的層次因為這個是我們未來長期發展非常重要的課題所以這些跨部會的議題 現在是由相關的政務委員在督導各部會來推動那您本身不是又是政務委員嗎 國發會的主委 政務委員來兼國發會的主委"},{"start":125.592,"end":141.497,"text":"那所以就是這個國發會主委現在就完全不負責相關的政策因為在這裡譬如說你們在今天報告裡面有寫到高齡社會白皮書高齡社會白皮書當時的主筆單位是主筆機關是哪一個機關是國發會嗎應該不是啦應該不是好那本席要講的就是說因為依照你們自己國發會組織法裡面的規定其實人力資源發展政策它應該是一個全面性的"},{"start":156.529,"end":175.838,"text":"一个政策的规划那现在呢看起来像总统府跟行政院的内部就是组织叠床架屋又成立了很多的各式各样不同的委员会或是顾问会推动小组等等那反而是架空了你们国发会的原来的这个执掌所以现在国发会到底扮演什么样的功能"},{"start":176.258,"end":198.045,"text":"其實並不會這樣子啦,跟委員報告,譬如說本會劉組委他是政務委員但是行政院政務委員有好幾位,他們都各自有分工那以本會為例,劉組委在擔任政務委員他主要的分工是像經濟、像財政、金融等等那剛剛提到的少子化、高齡化的分工上,目前可能是以陳時中、陳政委為主導"},{"start":199.005,"end":216.54,"text":"所以這些那很多要落實到各部會執行的時候那這個時候就有各部會他要做的事情那有些統籌協調的工作譬如說或者像公共建設計畫審議等等那這個本會當然責無旁貸好的了解了那現在我要講的就是說因為國發會你不要忘記其實過去在這個"},{"start":219.682,"end":243.499,"text":"在国民党执政时代国发会都是非常重要的一个机关它会针对整个国家的发展不管是在经济、社会、卫福还有人力产业发展等等都会提出非常精辟的联系报告然后提出很好的政策但是曾经核实这个国发会看起来功能已经越来越弱而且都会被一些非法定组织"},{"start":244.679,"end":259.41,"text":"來取代變成這些所謂的總統底下的委員會或行政院這些顧問小組等等看起來他們的權力可能都還比國發會大但我認為說這個是不對的其實蠻多政策國發會還是在推動跟規劃接下來我想講的就是說這個國發會想請教詹副主委你知不知道有一個中華民國人口政策綱領"},{"start":273.151,"end":275.716,"text":"過去是有 但我不知道現在在這陣線的綱領應該還是你們會會主管的吧"},{"start":278.531,"end":287.459,"text":"對我的意思是說我們現在在推動幾個主要跟人口有關的包含國家競爭力方案包含人口推估的比較早提到我想要講的就是因為時間的關係這個綱領到目前為止都還是放在國科會的人就是國發會的人口政策區那麼事實上這已經是103年當時所提出的人口政策綱領到現在已經114年了經過了10年"},{"start":303.852,"end":317.517,"text":"這些政策人口政策難道不需要經過檢討嗎是當然需要所以國發會呢你說你們有做那你們到底這些年來做了什麼你們有沒有提出最新的或是每五年就要有一個新的人口政策綱領"},{"start":319.264,"end":332.522,"text":"对否则的话我们现在看到就是一盘散沙一回少子化一回高龄化那对于整个的台湾的未来的整个的人口政策的它的图像以及我们要怎么样走没有就看不出来那这部分"},{"start":334.424,"end":357.119,"text":"我希望就是詹副主委這邊可以這個回去好要帶領你們的同仁要重新再去擬定新的人口政策綱領那至於就說高齡的相關議題不好意思麻煩再給我一分鐘就是現在國發會官網上面也只有看到有關於老年經濟的安全但是我們知道其實高齡的高齡化社會政策其實不只是老年經濟安全啊"},{"start":359.02,"end":376.417,"text":"它还包含其他的面向例如我们今天讲的智慧公共运剧等等所以你们在老年经济安全这里其实应该要把它的所讨论的范围扩大而且也不是只面向在经济安全对在居住安全社会安全"},{"start":377.438,"end":385.163,"text":"甚至在法制上的安全我覺得都應該要全面性的考量我希望就是國發會還是能夠扮演在整個台灣國家發展這個方面的領頭羊機關的角色而不是說現在變成是看起來像是行政院或總統府的小弟或是他們的幕僚機關他們做什麼然後你們再幫忙去擬稿我覺得這樣的方式是不對的"},{"start":403.235,"end":408.585,"text":"希望能夠提供相關的政策研擬"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":907,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時50分）主席好，有請國發會的詹副主委。"],["主席：詹副主委。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：詹副主委好。今年3月27號，本院的衛環委員會曾經邀請國發會就少子女化的議題來備詢，當時國發會參與的可能是某位處長，他說少子女化的問題已經提高到行政院層級了，是由政務委員陳時中來負責統籌相關的權責部會，也就是交由行政院的社會福利推動委員會來主辦。現在本席想要了解的是，依照國發會組織法第二條第六款的規定，其實國發會是主管人力資源發展政策，就之前處長的詢答，已經不包括少子女化政策了，那麼我們今天討論的高齡化或是超高齡化的相關政策推動，是不是仍然是屬於國發會主責？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，我們的業務當然會跟人力高齡化、少子化這些業務相關，這個沒錯，但是因為有些議題的重要性蠻高的，所以上次應該是人力處處長，他回復委員的意思是，對於少子化還有高齡化的問題，其實它們的層次都是在行政院，這是我們未來長期發展非常重要的課題，現在這些跨部會的議題是由相關的政務委員在督導各部會來推動。"],["翁委員曉玲：您本身不就是政務委員嗎？喔，對不起，政務委員來兼國發會的主委，所以現在國發會的主委就完全不負責相關的政策？你們在今天的報告裡面寫到高齡社會白皮書，高齡社會白皮書當時的主筆機關是哪一個機關？是國發會嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：應該不是。"],["翁委員曉玲：應該不是，好，本席要講的是，依照你們國發會組織法裡面的規定，其實人力資源發展政策應該是一個全面性的政策規劃，現在看起來像總統府跟行政院的內部組織疊床架屋，又成立了很多各式各樣不同的委員會、顧問會、推動小組等等，反而架空了你們國發會原來的職掌，所以現在國發會到底扮演什麼樣的功能？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：其實並不會這樣子，跟委員報告，譬如說本會劉主委是政務委員，但是行政院的政務委員有好幾位，他們都各自有分工，以本會為例，劉主委擔任政務委員的主要分工是像經濟、財政金融等等；剛剛提到少子化、高齡化的分工，目前可能是以陳時中政委為主導，所以很多要落實到各部會執行時就有各部會要做的事情，有些統籌協調的工作，像是公共建設計畫審議等等，本會當然責無旁貸，並不是我們沒有在做。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，了解。現在我要講的是，你不要忘記過去在國民黨執政時代，其實國發會都是非常重要的機關，他們會針對整個國家發展，不管是經濟、社會、衛福，還有人力產業發展等等提出非常精闢的研析報告，也提出很好的政策，但是曾幾何時，現在國發會看起來功能已經越來越弱，而且都被一些非法定組織取代，變成總統底下的委員會或行政院顧問小組等等，看起來他們的權力可能都還比國發會大，我認為這個是不對的，我們在法制上面……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員，其實有蠻多政策，國發會還是在推動跟規劃……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來我想講的是，想請教國發會的詹副主委，你知不知道有一個中華民國人口政策綱領？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：過去是有，但我不知道現在在……"],["翁委員曉玲：政策綱領應該還是你們貴會主管的吧？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：對，我的意思是，我們現在在推動幾個主要跟人口有關的政策，包含國家競爭力方案、人口推估，比較少提到這個……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為時間的關係，這個綱領到目前為止都還是放在國發會的人口政策區，事實上這已經是103年當時所提出的人口政策綱領，到現在已經114年了，經過了10年，這些人口政策難道不需要經過檢討嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，當然需要。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以國發會你說你們有做，那你們到底這些年來做了什麼？你們有沒有提出最新的，或是每5年就要有一個新的人口政策綱領？否則我們現在看到的就是一盤散沙，一會兒少子化、一會兒高齡化，對於整個臺灣未來的人口政策圖像以及我們要怎麼樣走都看不出來，這部分我希望詹副主委可以回去帶領你的同仁們重新再去擬定新的人口政策綱領。","至於高齡的相關議題，不好意思，麻煩召委再給我1分鐘，現在國發會的官網上只有看到有關於老年經濟的安全，但是我們知道高齡化的社會政策其實不只是老年經濟安全，還包含其他的面向，例如我們今天講的智慧公共運具等等，所以你們在老年經濟安全這裡應該要把它討論的範圍擴大，而且面向也不是只在經濟安全，在居住安全、社會安全、甚至在法制上的安全，我覺得都應該要全面性的考量，我希望國發會能夠扮演整個臺灣國家發展方面領頭羊的機關角色，而不是現在變成看起來像是行政院或總統府的小弟或是他們的幕僚機關，他們做什麼，然後你們再幫忙去引導，我覺得這樣的方式是不對的。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員指教。"],["翁委員曉玲：希望你們能夠提供相關的政策研擬，以上。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：翁委員對你們的期許很大，謝謝。","現在請葉元之委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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先請教一下中選會在4月15日說 受到61件罷免案其中41件涉嫌偽造 還有往生者連署都以寒轉最高檢查署告發我想請問一下法務部目前現在偵辦的進度如何 已經全部偵查完畢了嗎"},{"start":51.232,"end":71.81,"text":"我想這個每個個案都不一樣有的偵辦進入都不相同我是說每個案子 因為這裡沒有很多案每個案子的偵辦進入都不相同有的已經起訴如報紙所登載所以基本上對於如果受到告發包含偽照還有"},{"start":72.991,"end":83.022,"text":"就是死人連署 亡生者連署我們法務部都會辦都會 這個地檢署如果有收到相關的情資或是說這個遺訟告發我們都會立案偵辦一定會辦好 那我希望"},{"start":88.487,"end":93.729,"text":"我們整個的司法偵辦不能夠辦藍不辦綠 不能選擇顏色辦案市長同意嗎我想沒有這種情形 一定會公平的處理那麼在上個星期五在當晚的時候 中選會就公布了被罷免的立法委員在第二階段連署人的查對結果"},{"start":113.438,"end":128.769,"text":"結果呢 移購罷免的案件數是31案不符合規定的人數高達157226份平均每個案子違規人數高達5071份 超過5000份平均一個案子都超過5000份 這非常"},{"start":136.374,"end":158.348,"text":"多在過去呢我印象裡面就是當時郭台銘去選總統的時候5270多份那個時候大家已經嚇到了有這麼多的違規的這個份數但是呢你可以看到這個只是平均喔平均都超過5000份好那麼剛才"},{"start":162.33,"end":184.747,"text":"次長也說 有立案 偵查就會辦有些都起訴了 有些都關人了這裡面包含罷免吳思瑤跟吳佩儀兩位委員大搜索 大羈押包含黃綠主委 還有其實很多的國民黨的黨部主委現在都被關起來那吳思瑤是幾份呢 2674份"},{"start":187.649,"end":204.644,"text":"吳佩奕2537份 辦得風風火火辦到已經起訴 辦到已經羈押那麼 所以我剛才說像我們現在以星期五所公布的數字高達157000多份所以這樣子的一個這麼嚴重的違規所以次長你認為該不該辦"},{"start":214.552,"end":229.397,"text":"館長我想檢查機關只要收到告訴告發或有其他具體的事證都會依法來偵辦因為法務部是做法務行政所以我們對於這些案子我們不會去干涉指示或是有具體任何的"},{"start":230.277,"end":255.882,"text":"好 非常好 一定不能是看顏色來辦案一定要 應該一視同仁那在這邊呢 我就直接再跟法務部再來做告發來 我們下一頁 我剛才講到的是總體的是超過15萬7千多份好 那我們在這一次看到這個大罷免 大羈押 大搜索"},{"start":257.362,"end":276.51,"text":"辦到很多是說 有這麼多死亡連署 偽造連署這個當然要辦 那我就直接來跟我們法部來做告發譬如說在星期五公佈的丁學忠委員的案子死亡連署高達27人 偽造連署高達298份"},{"start":284.195,"end":307.794,"text":"副官企委員也是一樣 連署前死亡人數14人那麼江啟臣 江啟臣還沒有成案但是江啟臣連署前死亡人數已經高達44人另外呢 也是還有劉浩委員 還沒有成案而他的連署前死亡人數就高達56人"},{"start":310.456,"end":331.229,"text":"那當然我們這邊當然希望中選會能夠一視同仁的來做告發來做舉報但是呢因為中選會呢可能慢半拍因為現在呢其實已經進入了大罷免那比較有這個特別比較有那個爭議性的是江啟臣跟游浩委員兩位委員他們還在補件當中"},{"start":335.131,"end":339.655,"text":"按照辦吳思瑤 辦吳沛毅的一個潛力的話那麼應該 中選會應該立即告罰八部檢調應該立刻偵辦我是說比照 雙吳 吳思瑤 吳沛毅同樣的江啟臣 游浩也是一樣前面兩位已經呈案了但是呢 也應該要辦"},{"start":359.75,"end":387.969,"text":"那麼還沒有成案的更需要辦要更需要比照無私藥無配意來辦那麼請問一下次長同不同意我想委員每個個案他的具體的犯罪事實的偵查要由個案具體承辦的檢察官他去依法來調查認定那所以說我們在程序上一定會這個所有中選會有來告發因為他是上禮拜五現在是禮拜一假設他有我們都會用同樣的程序來辦理"},{"start":388.829,"end":395.835,"text":"一定要用同樣程序來辦 因為吳思堯 吳佩儀在連署當中過去中選會 這次是第一次在連署過程中他就告發是由審辦的檢察官來決定 不要跟我講這些啦所有審辦檢察官笨藍的時候笨藍營連署的時候呢 都風風火火 十萬火急"},{"start":413.47,"end":417.374,"text":"然後現在呢 就要拖拖拉拉嗎這個就是變成選擇性辦案那另外 我在這邊也要特別提到因為這一次我們在選罷法裡面我想因為這個"},{"start":429.364,"end":455.744,"text":"市長選舉經驗也很豐富在選罷法裡面其實明明白白的規定第一階段的提議人不能夠充當第二階段的連署人這個是法有明文規定 您也是這個法律背景但是在這一次的罷免案裡面大量充斥第一階段的提議人在裡面充數"},{"start":458.206,"end":481.641,"text":"而且呢他的比例幾乎全面的高達八成以上全面喔他不是有些人高有些人低不是喔全面高達八成以上而且呢有一些委員的第一階段提議人去變成第二階段連署人的比例還在九成以上比如說羅志強委員賴士寶委員我個人呢也高達八十八趴好所以這個就奇怪了"},{"start":487.885,"end":511.319,"text":"照例講每一個霸團有些多有些少這個是比較合理全面都在八成以上如果我沒有記錯都在八成五以上所以這是不是形容聯合違規組織犯罪我想這個中選會是主管這個法規他有他的說明了那當然個案中檢察官自己可以再去認定全面都八成以上"},{"start":512.957,"end":521.602,"text":"這不是聯合行為嗎這個不是我們我們不是法定的主管機構又是因為罷免國民黨的立委不忍苛責"},{"start":524.801,"end":544.645,"text":"沒事中選會在說這是組織犯罪 請問一下全部的霸團30多個霸團同樣的有志一同的把這些提議人全部塞成第二階段的連署人這難道不是一個聯合行為跟組織行為嗎好 時間暫停一下 我請一下我們的矯正署 周署長"},{"start":553.935,"end":554.136,"text":"請周署長"},{"start":558.427,"end":586.664,"text":"我們在上個星期特別提到有關於我們現在在監獄環境其實有一些很多的問題而且是大家通案的問題就是我們的收容人數太多然後呢我們的相關的就介護人員不足還有一些心理輔導的不足那麼我們在這三天就是這一個禮拜"},{"start":587.984,"end":610.251,"text":"即便我們有專題報告但是呢短短三天就出現了兩起的攻擊事件這個包含台東的東城監獄裡面呢出現了他去那個看診護理師呢結果呢他就是拿筆去攻擊護理師攻擊他的臉攻擊他的脖子說這個是情緒失控"},{"start":610.891,"end":624.541,"text":"好 那在6月9號呢 也一樣 這是同寢室的受刑人也不知道為什麼 結果就打起來了打到對方疑似骨折他意思就是說 睡覺的時候互相干擾"},{"start":627.063,"end":647.468,"text":"那麼署長現在天氣越來越炎熱我覺得這也是我們在監獄管理裡面一個非常大的一個考驗對不對天氣越來越炎熱老師說了在監獄裡面幾個人擠成一團可能都是彪形大漢"},{"start":649.028,"end":669.706,"text":"睡覺也會碰碰撞撞走路也會碰碰撞撞我們其實即便我們在冷氣房裡面也難免這麼天氣熱也都會心浮氣躁所以我想請教一下在這一段氣候越來越炎熱的時候我們有沒有一些特別有什麼辦法"},{"start":671.407,"end":685.92,"text":"來做讓我們的受刑人在情緒管理上他不要受到這樣的氣候炎熱的影響我們降低像我剛才講的短短幾天三天就出現兩起的暴力事件更不要說我們之前討論的"},{"start":688.282,"end":701.354,"text":"這個介護人員還要求要求這個受刑人給他口交的事情那個是很嚴重啦那這個是受刑人自己的情緒失控這有沒有什麼辦法先來做一些改善"},{"start":702.538,"end":722.805,"text":"報告委員天氣炎熱確實會跟囚情有相關所以我們各矯正機關在夏天的時候在六日會比如說給發給受刑人那個所謂的礦泉水結冰的礦泉水給他們做散熱用"},{"start":723.405,"end":737.323,"text":"只有6日喔另外就是我們在所謂的三餐我們會一個禮拜有一次給他吃例如說綠豆湯退火的會有這一些安排"},{"start":739.277,"end":756.587,"text":"這個部分啦 那當然那一個禮拜只有一餐退伙一次大概是一個禮拜一次啦那另外六天不可能每天吃啦 一個禮拜會有一次我覺得看怎麼樣其實這問題還是在於我們是在太極中我最近收到一個台東太原監獄受刑人"},{"start":757.247,"end":778.599,"text":"他裡面講的洋洋灑灑很多啦裡面包含 這個其實這個長期我覺得你們一定要非常小心就在監獄裡面買東西特別貴而且物價非常地問題這個 另外一個他特別提到今年初發生了一個事件喔那麼他們因為吃了那個香腸整個烤得黑黑的這樣子"},{"start":779.6,"end":792.067,"text":"然後吃完之後呢大家集體的上吐下瀉非常嚴重後來變成所謂的諾魯病毒可是他們認為自己是食物中毒不是諾魯病毒等於是把它講成是一個好像只是只是病毒感染事件那我要講就剛才講"},{"start":798.971,"end":816.754,"text":"夏天天氣炎熱除了情緒管理之外在飲食衛生上要特別特別的注意這麼多人一個寢室裡面六個人四個人在那邊上吐下瀉上吐下瀉你就知道原來衛生的環境就非常非常差"},{"start":817.575,"end":841.503,"text":"然後那會更差所以在這段時間是我們一個非常大的考驗有一些我們剛講基本的問題他也許不是短時間他就可以解決我們希望你能夠改善你們能夠改善但是呢在因為這個氣候的因素還有就是在夏季衛生食品的管理也拜託能夠多費一些心好不好"},{"start":841.903,"end":867.997,"text":"是 報告委員我們那個合作社都會去仿價但是仿價大概是以超商的價格不可以高於超商的價格所以你們這一部分因為這個其實我覺得他寫的不是很清楚但是他提到這一部分是所以拜託我們會去留意是不是確實有高於不要跑監獄裡面價格就翻倍了這個是絕對不能容許的好不好是好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":800,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時39分）謝謝主席。我先請法務部次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長，先請教一下，中選會在4月15號說收到61件罷免案，其中41件涉嫌偽造，還有往生者連署，都已函轉最高檢察署告發，我想請問一下法務部目前偵辦的進度如何？已經全部偵查完畢了嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我想每個個案都不一樣，有的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我沒有在講個案，我是說……"],["黃次長世杰：每一個案子，因為這裡面有很多案，每個案子的偵辦進度都不相同，有的已經起訴，如報紙所登載，有的是還在偵查中……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以基本上，如果受到告發，包含偽造還有死人連署、往生者連署，我們法務部都會辦？"],["黃次長世杰：地檢署如果有收到相關的情資，或是移送告發，我們都會立案偵辦。"],["王委員鴻薇：一定會辦？"],["黃次長世杰：一定會辦。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我希望我們整個司法偵辦不能夠辦藍不辦綠，不能選擇顏色辦案，次長同意嘛？"],["黃次長世杰：我想沒有這種情形，一定會公平。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，在上個星期五傍晚的時候，中選會公布了被罷免的立法委員在第二階段連署人的查對結果，罷免的案件數一共是31案，不符合規定的人數高達15萬7,226份，平均每個案子的違規人數高達5,071份，超過5,000份，平均一個案子都超過5,000份，這非常多。","在我印象裡面，當時郭台銘去選總統的時候，五千兩百七十多份，那個時候大家已經嚇到了，有這麼多違規的份數，但是你可以看到這只是平均，平均都超過5,000份，剛才次長也說有立案偵查就會辦，有些都起訴了，有些都關人了，這裡面包含罷免吳思瑤跟吳沛憶兩位委員，大搜索、大羈押，包含黃呂主委，還有很多國民黨的黨部主委現在都被關起來，那吳思瑤是幾份呢？2,674份，吳沛憶是2,537份，辦得風風火火，辦到已經起訴、辦到已經羈押。","所以我剛才說，像我們現在以星期五所公布的數字，高達十五萬七千多份，這麼嚴重的違規，次長，你認為該不該辦？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我想檢察機關只要收到告訴、告發或有其他具體的事證，都會依法來偵辦，因為法務部是做法務行政，所以我們對於這些案子，我們不會去干涉、指示或是有具體任何的……"],["王委員鴻薇：好、非常好！一定不能看顏色來辦案，應該要一視同仁，我在這邊就直接再跟法務部來做告發。我剛才講到總體超過十五萬七千多份，我們在這一次看到大罷免、大羈押、大搜索，辦到很多死亡連署、偽造連署，這個當然要辦，那我就直接來跟法務部做告發。譬如說在星期五公布的丁學忠委員的案子，死亡連署高達27人，偽造連署高達298份，傅崐萁委員也是一樣，連署前死亡人數14人，至於江啟臣還沒有成案，但是江啟臣連署前死亡人數已經高達44人，另外游顥委員也還沒有成案，而他的連署前死亡人數就高達56人，我們這邊當然希望中選會能夠一視同仁的來做告發、來做舉報，但是中選會可能慢半拍，因為現在其實已經進入了大罷免，特別比較有爭議性的是江啟臣跟游顥委員，兩位委員他們還在補件當中。","按照辦吳思瑤、辦吳沛憶的前例的話，那中選會應該立即告發、檢調應該立刻偵辦，我是說比照雙吳（吳思瑤、吳沛憶）。同樣的，江啟臣、游顥也是一樣，前面兩位已經成案了，但是也應該要辦，那麼還沒有成案的，更需要辦，更需要比照吳思瑤、吳沛憶來辦，請問一下次長同不同意？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我想每一個個案的具體犯罪事實的偵查，要由個案具體承辦的檢察官去依法來調查、認定，所以說，我們在程序上一定會……如果中選會有來告發，因為上禮拜五，現在是禮拜一，假設它有，我們都會用同樣的程序來辦理。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，一定要用同樣程序來辦，因為吳思瑤、吳沛憶在連署當中，過去中選會……"],["黃次長世杰：但是要跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：這次是第一次，在連署過程中，它就有告發……"],["黃次長世杰：具體的偵查行為是由承辦的檢察官來決定，他要……"],["王委員鴻薇：不要跟我講這些啦！所有承辦檢察官辦藍的時候、辦藍營連署的時候呢，都風風火火、十萬火急，然後現在就要拖拖拉拉嗎？這個就是變成選擇性辦案……"],["黃次長世杰：我想都有按照具體的犯罪事實來處理……"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我在這邊也要特別提到，因為這一次，我們在選罷法裡面，因為次長的選舉經驗也很豐富，在選罷法裡面其實明明白白的規定，第一階段的提議人不能夠充當第二階段的連署人，這個是法有明文規定，您也是法律背景出身的……但在這次罷免案中，有大量的第一階段提議人在裡面充數，且比例幾乎全面高達八成以上，是全面，不是有些人高、有些人低，不是！是全面高達八成以上！而且一些委員罷免案的第一階段提議人變成第二階段連署人，其比例甚至在九成以上！比如羅智強委員、賴士葆委員，我個人也高達88%。這就奇怪了，照理講，有些罷團多、有些罷團少是合理的，但全面都在八成以上？如果我沒有記錯的話，其實都在八成五以上，這是不是形同聯合違規的組織犯罪？"],["黃次長世杰：中選會主管該法規，它有它的說明，當然，個案中檢察官自己可以再去認定。"],["王委員鴻薇：全面都八成以上不是聯合行為嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我們不是該法的主管機關，所以該怎麼解釋由中選會……"],["王委員鴻薇：又是因為罷免國民黨的立委，不忍苛責！每一次中選會在說……"],["黃次長世杰：委員這樣講是在說檢察機關……"],["王委員鴻薇：這是組織犯罪，請問一下，全部的罷團、三十多個罷團，同樣的、有志一同的，把這些提議人全部塞成第二階段連署人，這難道不是一種聯合行為跟組織行為嗎？時間暫停一下，我請矯正署周署長。"],["主席：請周署長。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：上星期我們特別提到現在監獄環境其實有很多問題，而且是通案的問題，也就是收容人數太多，戒護人員不足、心理輔導人員不足。這三天……就是這個禮拜，即便有專題報告，但在短短三天內就出現了兩起攻擊事件，包含臺東東成監獄受刑人去看診時，竟拿筆攻擊護理師的臉和脖子，說他情緒失控；至於6月9日，同寢室的受刑人不知道為什麼就打起來了，還打到對方疑似骨折，說睡覺時互相干擾。署長，現在天氣越來越炎熱，我覺得這是監獄管理上一個非常大的考驗，對不對？老實說，天氣越來越炎熱，監獄裡面幾個彪形大漢擠成一團，睡覺會碰碰撞撞，走路也會碰碰撞撞，即便我們在冷氣房裡，這麼天氣熱也難免會心浮氣躁。所以我想請教一下，面對氣候越來越炎熱之際，有沒有一些或什麼特別辦法，讓受刑人的情緒不會受到氣候炎熱的影響？並降低我剛才所講的，短短三天就出現兩起暴力事件的狀況？更別說之前所討論的，有戒護人員要求受刑人幫他口交的事件，那是很嚴重的！雖然現在是受刑人自己情緒失控，但有沒有什麼辦法可以先做改善？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，天氣炎熱確實會跟囚情相關，所以各矯正機關在夏天的六、日，會發給受刑人結冰的礦泉水做散熱用……"],["王委員鴻薇：只有六、日？"],["周署長輝煌：另外，在三餐方面，一個禮拜可以喝一次綠豆湯退火，我們會有這些安排。當然……"],["王委員鴻薇：一個禮拜就只有一餐吃一次退火的？平常……"],["周署長輝煌：大概是一個禮拜一次……"],["王委員鴻薇：另外六天呢？"],["周署長輝煌：不可能每天吃，但一個禮拜會有一次。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實問題癥結還是在於人數實在太集中！我最近收到臺中泰源監獄受刑人陳情，他講得洋洋灑灑，包含……這是長期狀況，我覺得你們要非常小心。也就是在監獄裡買東西特別貴，而且物價飛漲！另外，他特別提到今年初發生一起事件，就是他們吃了烤得黑黑的香腸之後，大家集體上吐下瀉，非常嚴重，後來甚至變成諾羅病毒感染。可是他們認為是食物中毒，不是諾羅病毒，等於把它說成病毒感染。我剛才講過，夏天天氣炎熱，除了情緒管理之外，在飲食衛生上也要特別、特別注意，畢竟一個寢室有六個人或四個人在上吐下瀉，可見衛生環境實在非常非常差，甚至會更差！所以這段時間是一個非常大的考驗，有一些基本問題也許不是短時間可以解決的，但我們希望你們能改善。至於氣候因素及夏季食品衛生的管理，也拜託能夠多費心，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們的合作社會去訪價，不過訪價以超商價格為主，不可以高於超商價格，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這部分……其實我覺得寫得不是很清楚，不過他有提到這部分。所以拜託……"],["周署長輝煌：我們會去研議，是不是確實高於……"],["王委員鴻薇：不要因為在監獄裡就讓價格翻倍了，這是絕對不能容許的，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：是、是。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。我先處理會議時間。上午會議就繼續進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答結束為止。","接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91ab89330fb577eca0ab85017248ed72d8dda6ae3643212cc5f9307f5de316788b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:37:55 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記得市長你都講到說可能用一些工協會由他來扮演的適度的運輸的角色市長你要工協會扮演對不對但是你很多配套還是要先給他第一個就是說"},{"start":351.066,"end":371.145,"text":"這個你叫協會去當駕駛他們的車他還是要符合規格但是我跟你說他們很多是會害怕的我之前有遇過一些類似消防的就是要帶老人去長照中間一小段對不對你知道"},{"start":372.315,"end":390.141,"text":"他們駕駛是不敢把老人從車上把他扶到車下他會怕他會怕什麼他怕後續的一些責任問題他沒有受過正當的教育課是啊是啊他就會有這些責任問題所以所以我要說很多時候你們好"},{"start":391.161,"end":416.553,"text":"大方法抓出來那剩下一些配套一些要解套然後一些讓這些駕駛人他們適度的一些責任應該要讓他們有豁免的機會不然他要塞車然後要救整車的老人他也是怕的應該是兩個方面一個就是提升他的職能讓他認識了解他要做的工作那第二個豁免的部分可能要思考怎麼來補強他"},{"start":419.375,"end":441.003,"text":"這部分我想可以再想辦法啦偏鄉地方對於公共運輸的需求我覺得這個交通部你們在思考台灣的發展交通的時候一定要注意到城鄉的差距因為偏鄉的地方看是政府部門應該要顧好好不好謝謝委員好來市長請回那我是不是再請經濟部郭部長郭部長"},{"start":449.827,"end":454.109,"text":"我們來討論一個時事的現在以伊戰爭看起來伊朗國會已經批准要封鎖赫默茲海峽"},{"start":463.362,"end":480.783,"text":"那封鎖了赫默茲海峽大概整個石油從中東的石油大概會斷裂那如果以台灣對台灣的影響來說台灣有超過六成的石油或者也還有兩成以上的天然氣是來自包括沙烏地阿拉伯啦包括科威特包括"},{"start":481.543,"end":505.863,"text":"卡達啦 這樣的一些中東國家所以會產生這樣石油供應的斷鏈跟天然氣那未來勢必可以想像 可能油價會上漲那油價會上漲這件事情兩個直接衝擊 中油跟台塑那部長 我們未來對中油我們因應油價上漲 我們要怎樣的對策嗎"},{"start":507.925,"end":532.243,"text":"報告委員我想油價的部分因為我們還有一個亞林最低價這樣一個部分存在所以我想這個行政院他應該會去考量這部分不是經濟部的業務啦我們是盡量配合這個行政院的這個指示來因應但是我們有做了一些推估大概會漲多少做了一些推估不過經濟部現在關切的是這個20%的油到25%的氣"},{"start":536.887,"end":537.369,"text":"其實那幫人"},{"start":539.666,"end":566.273,"text":"這個供給上面不順利的時候我要怎麼來彌補這個市場的這個需求啦所以我們經濟部現在大部分都在著力於對量的穩定量的穩定啦介紹的部分因為我們有供應量的穩定很重要就是要有一些替代的一些能源的一些來源啦但是部長我現在我想要問這一題我比較想要呼籲的就是說"},{"start":567.293,"end":576.485,"text":"我們中油 畢竟中油是國營事業啦那如果亞林最低價那當然中油就要去吸收要去吸收這一些油價的"},{"start":577.708,"end":598.128,"text":"但是另外一間台塑,台塑面對整個中國的石化業產能過剩所以台塑已經面對很大的衝擊這次的油價如果上漲,對台塑是可以說雪上加霜,更嚴重"},{"start":599.529,"end":613.459,"text":"台塑這間公司這樣經營下去壓力這麼大,勢必會面對台灣很多的就業市場,不然我想你一定知道,很多台灣的員工在台塑上班,你看賣料那裡,現在賣料那裡已經變成一個很大的鄉鎮,你看我們跟台北比較辛苦,"},{"start":620.484,"end":639.847,"text":"那也幾乎都是在台塑或是台塑的關係企業那如果未來台塑跟中油一樣面對油價上漲然後有面對這個油價要吸收成本的這樣的危機的時候雖然它是一些私人企業但是它已經大到我們政府應該要去關心它保證這塊是不是你可以"},{"start":641.468,"end":662.993,"text":"思考一下報告委員我們現在大概就是對油價的目前大概在75塊到85塊這個地方我們還在評估那當然更高的時候我想我們會從這個影響CPI這個物價指數上面來看那根據我們的模型來推論如果油價上漲10%影響CPI大概只有0.3%"},{"start":666.654,"end":684.12,"text":"對於這私人企業因為他大到影響我們會來跟他接觸來尋求跟他做充分的溝通看需要怎樣來倒三缸我的意思是這樣我覺得跟台秀應該對話台秀這間企業已經這麼大這麼多員工在那裡上班所以我們也不想看到台秀有裁員的狀況一個裁員就是很多家庭他少了這樣的一個依靠"},{"start":695.583,"end":714.016,"text":"所以台塑要怎麼讓它可以至少要撐過你說中國的產能過剩再加上這一次以異戰爭可能會面對的一個能源危機這個部分中有需要台塑這也是可能我們國家的台東應該也是要來關心當然我們就是現在台塑是大企業"},{"start":715.177,"end":741.73,"text":"那大企業有大企業的運作模式現在我們經濟部主要還是對中小微企業我們著力比較深啦當然委員現在關注到這個命題我們會回去以後馬上召集我們部裡面的這些同仁來詳細跟這個你們應該思考一下啦所以我也沒辦法有大案啦因為畢竟還是智能企業我可以想像因為在我的選區我好多人都都是台所上班他們都會歡樂"},{"start":744.252,"end":764.506,"text":"這員工在替老闆在擔心啦是是是 這個部分台塑應該是我們會去考量啦就是說基本上還是要反映成本啦我們還是盡量讓他反映成本這個部分我想我們會跟台塑然後我們整體所有的相關的同仁我們會來努力好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我們是不是先請交通部林次長和公路局副局長？"],["主席：林次長、副局長。"],["林次長國顯：蔡委員早。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，因為今天我們召委在關心關於老齡化使用客運的問題，事實上我們也知道像是很多偏鄉，也不用說到完全偏鄉，像現在我們嘉義縣大概晚上之後幾乎就沒有客運了，過去的客運功能完全已經沒了，不管是到臺北、高雄，大家都覺得投報率越來越低，可能乘載的人數也少，就變成沒有這樣的客運服務了。我想請教次長，因為這種有點是因為市場導向而造成了客運的中止，這樣的情況，站在交通部的立場，你們是樂見嗎？還是你們覺得就讓它依市場機制下去？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，當然不樂見，我們不樂見公共運輸退場得這麼快，但是現在的狀況是，可能委員也知道，在疫情期間有很多私人運具是有註冊或購買，有一部分的使用者在那段時間轉到私人運具去；第二個是我們也曾經注意到客運車的駕駛相對壓力比較大，因為他會面臨乘客的抱怨，或是路線比較長、疲勞駕駛的問題，甚至剛剛也有委員提到，他可能會有用餐、上廁所的一些壓力，所以這些課題如果不能夠逐步來處理，大概公路駕駛會不太容易找得到，這是目前的狀態。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你剛剛講到有所謂私人的運具，但是畢竟不是很大的客群，是懂得去使用私人運具的人才有辦法，尤其是這種跑長程的，比方如果從嘉義要到臺北，我晚上趕不上最後一班10點半的高鐵，我趕不上了，那我有其他選擇嗎？好像沒有耶！"],["林次長國顯：是，除了自用車以外，就是叫車了，公路客運大概晚上……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊，但是客運這一塊就沒了嘛！所以次長，你說不樂見嘛！交通部要提出怎樣的替代方式去延長這些客運壽命也好，還是讓他們能夠繼續提供服務。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，全世界可能都面臨一樣的問題：第一個缺工；第二個是駕駛人超過65歲以上的時候，其實有些駕駛還有一定的能力，像計程車的部分我們就放得比較寬。所以有關是否把駕駛年齡延長？第二個，是否能找到更多的駕駛來源？包含我們前一陣子討論的外籍駕駛，通通是我們努力的方向，不過目前並沒有很好的一個結果啦！所以基本上我們是要處理這個議題。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，事實上這也是很多矛盾，你說要把駕駛年齡延長，不過你現在延長，我們也沒辦法預見駕駛年齡延長後面這一端到底要延長多久，延長到66歲？67歲？"],["林次長國顯：延長的部分還需要精細的討論，畢竟不是直接依照供需來處理，有些還是要看年齡的部分。第二個是駕駛人的部分，我們今天的主題就是智慧運輸跟自動駕駛能否幫助駕駛降低他的壓力以及行車安全，所以我們也希望透過智慧運輸、智慧公車的提供，讓駕駛的壓力降低以後能夠用這個方式來吸引新的駕駛人員進來。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，我們期待有未來可以有無人載具、智慧運輸來取代客運的服務，但是我覺得次長還是要去關注到在偏鄉本身公共運輸的能量就很不足，又因為偏鄉，然後又有駕駛人人數的限制的話，這個在偏鄉更嚴重，所以我們交通部還是要去顧及到很多不同的城鄉落差。"],["林次長國顯：理解。"],["蔡委員易餘：鄉下地方，我要找個公共運輸，就沒有辦法，找不到，而且本身地方的年輕人也不足，他要叫家裡的人載他，也沒有年輕人，年輕人都到外地去了。"],["林次長國顯：所以我們為什麼會開始把幸福巴士導入幸福小黃的作用大概是這個，就是用計程車來協助非特定路線的公共運輸。第二個，我們同仁也在研議，有些地方如果連幸福小黃都沒有，更偏遠的郊區或是山區可不可以開放社會型的服務？譬如說團體、協會來參與我們的公共運輸服務，這個在別的地區是有，目前是還沒有正規化來導入。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，既然有方法，我覺得就要去嘗試看看。"],["林次長國顯：對，這個大概就是逐步來推。"],["蔡委員易餘：既然次長都講到可能有一些公協會，由它適度來扮演運輸的角色，事實上，你要公協會扮演，但是你很多配套還是要先給它。第一個，你叫協會去當駕駛，他們會怕耶！"],["林次長國顯：他還是要符合規格，符合駕駛的……"],["蔡委員易餘：要符合規格，但是我跟你說，他們很多是會害怕的，我之前有遇過一些類似……就是要帶老人去長照，中間有一小段，對不對？你知道他們駕駛是不敢把老人從車上扶到車下的，他會怕耶！"],["林次長國顯：確實。"],["蔡委員易餘：為什麼會怕？他怕後續的一些責任問題。"],["林次長國顯：他沒有受過正規的教育課程，可能會危害到……"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊，他就會有這些責任問題。所以我說很多時候你們大方法抓出來，剩下一些配套、一些要解套，然後應該讓這些駕駛人他們有適度豁免一些責任的機會，不然他今天要開車，然後要顧整車的老人，他也是會怕耶！"],["林次長國顯：應該是兩個方面，一個就是提升他的職能，讓他認識、了解他要做的工作。第二個，豁免的部分可能要思考怎麼來補強，這個我們再來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我想這個部分可以再想辦法，關於偏鄉地方對於公共運輸的需求。"],["林次長國顯：所以現在的邏輯……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得交通部在思考臺灣發展交通的時候，一定要注意到城鄉的差距……"],["林次長國顯：了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：越偏鄉的地方，確實是政府部門應該要顧好的，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，次長先回，我再請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們來討論一下時事，現在以伊戰爭，看起來伊朗國會已經批准要封鎖荷姆茲海峽，如果封鎖了荷姆茲海峽，大概從中東輸出的石油會斷鏈。如果以對臺灣的影響來說，臺灣有超過六成的石油或者也還有兩成以上的天然氣是來自包括沙烏地阿拉伯、包括科威特、包括卡達一些中東國家，所以會產生石油供應及天然氣的斷鏈，未來勢必可以想像可能油價會上漲，而油價上漲這件事情會直接衝擊中油跟台塑。部長，未來對中油，我們因應油價上漲有怎樣的對策？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想油價的部分，因為我們還有一個「亞鄰最低價」政策的存在，所以我想行政院應該會去考量，這部分不是經濟部的業務啦，我們是儘量配合行政院的指示來因應。但是我們針對大概會漲多少，有做了一些推估，不過，經濟部現在關切的是20%的油跟25%的天然氣，萬一供給上面不順利的時候，我要怎樣來彌補市場的需求。所以經濟部現在大部分都著力於對量的穩定，至於價錢的部分，因為我們有……"],["蔡委員易餘：供應量的穩定很重要……"],["郭部長智輝：對，供應量的穩定……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是要有一些替代能源的來源啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在是跟……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是部長我現在想要問這一題，我比較想要呼籲的是畢竟中油是國營事業，如果亞鄰最低價，當然中油就要去吸收這一些油價的。不過，還有另外一間台塑，老實說台塑面對了整個中國的石化業產能過剩，已經面對很大的衝擊，這次油價如果上漲，對台塑可以說是雪上加霜更嚴重。台塑這間公司這樣經營下去壓力這麼大，勢必會衝擊臺灣很多的就業市場。部長，我相信你一定知道，很多臺灣的員工在台塑上班。你看麥寮那裡，現在的麥寮已經變成雲林一個很大的鄉鎮了，你看我們嘉義的太保跟新港，那裡也幾乎都是在台塑或是台塑的關係企業上班。如果未來台塑跟中油一樣面對油價上漲，然後面對油價要吸收成本這樣的危機的時候，雖然它是一間私人企業，但是它已經大到我們政府應該要關心它。部長，這部分你是不是可以思考一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，油價目前大概在75塊到85塊這個地方我們還在評估，當然更高的時候，我想我們會從影響CPI物價指數上面來看，根據我們的模型來推論，如果油價上漲10%，影響CPI大概只有0.3%。對於私人企業因為它大到影響會很大，我們會來跟它接觸，來尋求跟它做充分的溝通，看需要怎麼樣來幫忙。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啦，部長，我的意思是這樣，我覺得應該和台塑對話，因為台塑這間企業已經這麼大，這麼多員工在那裡上班，所以我們也不想看到台塑有裁員的狀況，一裁員就會讓很多家庭少了依靠。所以要怎麼讓台塑至少可以撐過中國的產能過剩，再加上這一次以伊戰爭可能會面臨的能源危機，這個部分中油需要，台塑也可能需要，我們國家的態度應該也是要來關心一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是，當然現在台塑是大企業，大企業有大企業的運作模式，現在我們經濟部主要還是對中小微企業的著力比較深，當然委員現在關注到這個命題，我們回去以後會馬上召集我們部裡面的同仁來想一下，怎麼跟台塑對接……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們應該思考一下，這我也沒辦法有答案，因為畢竟它是私人企業，但是我可以想像，因為在我的選區裡有好多人都是在台塑上班，他們都在煩惱，員工都在替老闆擔心。"],["郭部長智輝：是，關於這個部分，台塑應該是我們會去考量的，基本上還是要反映成本……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然。"],["郭部長智輝：還是儘量讓它反映成本，我想我們會跟台塑討論，然後我們所有的相關同仁會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請翁曉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","李坤城","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","葉元之","謝龍介","邱鎮軍","張嘉郡","徐欣瑩","邱議瑩","翁曉玲"],"page_start":337,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、交通部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「因應\n高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146401_00007"}}},{"id":"162783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a7709568237e87a3bb9483b76f331b600da6ae3643212cc5fe8a977c2421e346e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:31:30 - 11:44:14","影片長度":"00:12:44","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T11:31:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T11:44:14+08:00","duration":764,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.966593750000001,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.130343750000002,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.39971875,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.74971875,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.99846875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.247218750000002,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.91284375,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.55346875,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.869718750000004,"end":64.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.27409375,"end":80.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.87909375000001,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.43159375,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.48221875,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.51596875,"end":82.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.70159375,"end":82.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.56221875,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.30846875,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.12971875000001,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.49221875,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.27659375,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.60096875,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.52221875000001,"end":144.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.05471875,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.36534375000002,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.53721875000002,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.43909375,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.73221875000002,"end":205.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.23096875000002,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.19784375,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.31096875000003,"end":233.32784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.32784375000003,"end":235.85909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.94346875000002,"end":237.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.00221875000003,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.47034375,"end":240.51659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.70221875000001,"end":281.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.33284375,"end":286.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.45096875,"end":282.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.83471875000004,"end":309.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.15971875,"end":310.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.93596875000003,"end":313.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.87659375000004,"end":317.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.02784375000005,"end":318.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.07409375000003,"end":322.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.52471875000003,"end":326.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.86596875000004,"end":328.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.41409375,"end":333.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.95346875,"end":347.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.16221875,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.26721875000004,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.74721875,"end":358.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.75971875000005,"end":375.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.26346875,"end":375.280343750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謝謝主席那請我們邱部長還有我們長照師我們祝市長請邱部長跟祝市長委員好部長那今年農曆年因為我們有去桃園新屋小做手訪市順便找廠商去採購他們一些的小禮品那當然我們去現場遇到很多身心障礙的弱勢的族群"},{"start":35.856,"end":58.664,"text":"那也就是我們大家俗稱的喜憨兒也就是智能障礙者那今天我們就想說來討論一下當喜憨兒老了以後誰要來照顧他們這部分的問題那尤其喜憨兒他在生理跟認知功能上他的退化速度也比一般人快那"},{"start":59.949,"end":79.614,"text":"智能障礙者大概40歲以後大概就進入老化那比我們法定的65歲大概還要早20年那我們的制度如果用65歲才來進入服務進入的門檻等於說這個族群的人就錯過了大概20年的黃金照顧期"},{"start":80.934,"end":101.027,"text":"那我請問一下部長那針對我們有了解到像2022年教育部中度智能障礙者在臺灣大概有7萬人那2015到2025年我們看一下臺灣智能障礙者在機構照顧的比例部長大概知道這是多少嗎"},{"start":102.332,"end":122.634,"text":"我們機構照顧臺灣智能障礙者比例沒關係這上面有那我們據我們的資料顯示我們大概機構照顧的比例大概只有5%表示說他大部分照顧的主流還是要仰賴家庭來照顧那我們目前全臺身心障礙"},{"start":123.635,"end":144.24,"text":"福利機構我們查了一下大概有226家那從數據上顯示我們可以了解到其實我們機構明顯的不足那即便現在我們有推日間照顧及社區居住的替代服務這部分也在發展在推廣但是這個目前的規模我們看還是有限"},{"start":145.14,"end":168.582,"text":"那如果這些智能障礙者他到了40歲之後他還是要仰賴父母的照顧那我們想了解一下40歲以後他的父母親也老了那父母親也要人家照顧那這些智能障礙者自己也需要人照顧那我們這一部分我們衛福部有沒有什麼規劃來介入幫忙"},{"start":169.485,"end":198.518,"text":"好非常謝謝委員關心到這個非常重要而且我們可以慢慢形成一個很重要的必須要關注的問題我們最近到一些相關的機構去看的確也發現了這個相當重要的問題所以真的很感謝那我們在身心障礙者其實他是前領的前領的納入啦在長照2.0就已經把前領的納入所以基本上他"},{"start":199.478,"end":227.151,"text":"只要身心障礙者理論上都應該可以得到強照的沒有限制65歲的不是 可是我們剛剛有講你機構照顧的其實只有5%他其他的可以說95%還是仰賴家庭照顧那家庭照顧他到40歲以後其實整體我們智能障礙者他老化的速度比一般人還快你看他到40歲之後他父母親也老了那這一部分我們"},{"start":228.692,"end":247.711,"text":"機構只有照顧5%那其他的部分我們衛福部有沒有注意到這個問題好 薛委員是不是這個部分有請社交使來幫忙做代理市長跟委員報告那我們現在在114年到117年有一個身心障礙者社區照顧服務的資源部件計畫"},{"start":248.752,"end":267.203,"text":"那我們預期在114到117年我們會在社區去增加相關對於身障者的這些服務的據點那預計在到今年3月底至我們大概已經有1,127個據點已經服務到2萬人左右那預計在到100我們的計畫啟程到117年會再增加695處據點可以再增加大概1萬零500人左右"},{"start":279.253,"end":281.543,"text":"大概會到三萬 接近三萬一千人"},{"start":282.743,"end":309.841,"text":"這是整個的 我們大概整個的對 剛剛我有講嘛因為我們現在日宣照顧跟社區居住替代服務我知道有逐漸在發展在推廣但是我們目前看起來這個進度規模還是有限所以我們希望今天提出來就是希望在這一部分我們還是要好好的替他們來規劃這些身障老者我們希望說基本上能夠有一個完整的規劃然後衛福部來重視這件事情好"},{"start":311.007,"end":314.528,"text":"好我們這個很重要我們一定來重視好那請衛福部來針對這部分來幫我們好好來規劃一下好那針對我們現在我們長照3.0是透過84量表來評估個案"},{"start":326.926,"end":350.059,"text":"那他評估的重點是評估他是否有生活治理能力那可是一樣對於喜憨兒這部分他們很多生活可以治理但是我們知道他在認知情緒社交各方面都有一些重重的障礙但是我們在造福評估"},{"start":351.46,"end":374.51,"text":"這一部分可能評估的結果是不符合失能那針對這一部分我們針對這一部分有沒有對他們因為你評估的結果可能他會沒有達到這巴斯量表的標準他生活上可能可以治理但是他在認知情緒社交方面可能沒有辦法達到那可是這一部分我們要如何去照顧他們"},{"start":375.31,"end":397.43,"text":"好的謝謝委員的指教那我想長照基本上是用CMS在評估量表來處理那巴士量表其實是在評估要聘外籍看護那這個部分委員所提到的是不是我們怎麼樣來作權性的來評估這個是不是市長回答一下"},{"start":400.766,"end":420.694,"text":"長照的這邊的評估不是用所謂的巴士量表長照3.0不是用巴士量表如果您關心的是巴士量表這邊是不是可以有一些做一些調整那基本上因為現在的這個聘外刊的那一塊現在有非常多多元免評的機制"},{"start":421.914,"end":437.986,"text":"那所以這個目前在勞動部這些相關的法規跟我們衛福部一起合作的部分已經有非常多的一些多元免評的對象不見得是要走到醫院去做這樣的巴士量表的評估所以因為我們"},{"start":438.746,"end":456.045,"text":"提出的意思說你針對他是不是能夠治理有沒有符合失能這部分單就八十兩秒部分可能對於這些身障老者可能就沒有辦法達到嘛所以我們也希望說對於失能評估工具的指標是不是可以納入"},{"start":456.565,"end":480.101,"text":"非身體性障礙的功能性退化指標這一部分是不是可以納入現況就已經有我們的CMS的評估量表就是多元評估量表裡面對於最有情緒困擾的還有一些心智障礙類的這個部分已經都有納進去所以這部分已經有幫他納入了嗎是好 那也希望說這一部分好好幫我們加強一下"},{"start":481.124,"end":504.19,"text":"那還有我們喜安兒如果過了65歲他可能在身上體性裡面他日間照顧可能無法繼續使用因為有可能這些身障的老人他到長照老人日間照顧中心他可能會被拒收因為據我們了解因為他們"},{"start":505.51,"end":516.678,"text":"心智障礙可能會吵鬧甚至會有攻擊性的行為所以對於這些身上老者可能他去這些照顧中心可能會被拒收會不會有面臨這樣的問題沒有辦法解決"},{"start":521.096,"end":541.021,"text":"委員關心這件事情其實我們在長照2.0及支付上路的時候針對有情緒困擾或者是不好照顧的對象我們都有加成的給付就是所謂的A碼的政策性的加成補助來幫忙讓這項的一個這個服務提供單位有這個意願來照顧這些困難照顧的對象"},{"start":543.922,"end":565.77,"text":"我們後來又針對失智症有伴隨BPSD就是所謂的情緒行為這些困擾的這樣的對象我們又額外再有一個加成所以其實這個對於困難照顧的部分其實都有兩個層次的一個相關的加成因為據我們了解其實像很多機構他們要收"},{"start":566.73,"end":595.518,"text":"我們喜安的這些老者其實他們也困擾所以他們都是盡量其實我們會感覺說他盡量是不收啦因為他也怕造成他的困擾或者影響到其他人所以我們說是不是針對這部分應該針對身障長者我們要有一個單一的服務窗口可以統整我們日間照顧喘息跟安置這些福利的轉介是不是可以針對他們這部分成立一個單一的服務窗口"},{"start":597.624,"end":619.4,"text":"現階段其實包括今天是以障礙身份進到長照體系或者以老人身份進到長照體系本來就有一個橫向的聯繫的平台因為我們擔心他會變成長照體系中的孤兒其實雖然說在規劃在裡面但是其實機構來講他們是傾向不願意去收他們"},{"start":620.856,"end":634.777,"text":"我們這一塊我們來努力那因為基本上目前的這個日照中心的有全國有一千多家那對於這個如果要專收障礙者這種尤其是心智障礙的話"},{"start":635.618,"end":654.277,"text":"那它基本上它的加速它的可靜性就不高因為畢竟日照中心就是要方便這個交通接送可以抵達的到的所以目前我們的政策上也不是在長照體系不會說去特別有一些專一來針對什麼樣的類型的障礙者的一個日照"},{"start":654.937,"end":678.977,"text":"這樣子其實他真的就是沒有辦法達到進變性的一個議題所以我們希望是這一千多家都能夠服務各種不同採取共融的對因為據我們了解因為身上長者可能對這些機構可能他們其實真的就是傾向盡量不收因為所以我們擔心他會成為我們長照體系中的孤兒因為你看"},{"start":679.577,"end":698.308,"text":"我們這個機構裡面照顧他們的只有5%他95%基本上都是家庭照顧那家庭照顧他到40歲老了以後他的父母親更老父母親也需要人家照顧他如果去照顧這些身障的長者所以我們希望長照3.0居然說要照顧全人"},{"start":701.23,"end":726.061,"text":"全靈全責任我也希望衛福部能夠具體針對我們身上長者這一部分能夠做一個改善也希望能夠納入我們後續的討論針對這一部分能夠來著重我們會來關注這個議題因為這一部分其實我們在地方都知道因為他們本身一些情緒甚至攻擊的行為長照體系其實"},{"start":728.662,"end":745.155,"text":"幾乎都是能不收就盡量不收啦所以我們擔心他會變成長照體系的孤兒針對這部分是不是單一個窗口特別來服務他們我們一定來設立這樣的一個最好的機制最方便的機制讓他們真的不要被忽略掉"},{"start":745.555,"end":758.353,"text":"對啊 因為我們說居然要推長照3.0居然全人全靈全責任好 希望這一部分能夠突顯一定不能遺漏任何一個對對對 這一部分希望我們衛福部來重視好的 好的 沒有問題好 謝謝 感謝部長好 謝謝圖權級委員接下來請劉建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時31分）謝謝主席，請邱部長還有長照司祝司長。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳代）：請邱部長跟祝司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，今年農曆年我們有去桃園新屋小作所訪視，順便找廠商去採購他們的一些小禮品，當然，我們在現場遇到很多身心障礙的弱勢族群，就是大家俗稱的喜憨兒，也就是智能障礙者。今天我們就想來討論一下，當喜憨兒老了以後，誰要來照顧他們的問題。尤其喜憨兒在生理跟認知功能上的退化速度也比一般人快，智能障礙者在40歲以後大概就進入老化，比法定的65歲還要早20年，我們的制度如果用65歲才進入服務的門檻，等於這個族群的人就錯過了大概20年的黃金照顧期。","我請問一下部長，根據2022年教育部的特教通報資料，我們了解到中度智能障礙者在臺灣大概有7萬人，而2015到2025年臺灣智能障礙者在機構照顧的比例，部長大概知道是多少嗎？機構照顧臺灣智能障礙者的比例。沒關係，這簡報上面有，據我們的資料顯示，機構照顧的比例大概只有5%，表示照顧的主流還是要仰賴家庭來照顧。目前全臺的身心障礙福利機構，我們查了一下，大概有226家，從數據上顯示，我們可以了解到我們機構明顯不足，即便現在有推日間照顧及社區居住的替代服務，這部分也在發展、推廣，但是目前規模還是有限。如果這些智能障礙者到了40歲之後，還是要仰賴父母的照顧，我們想了解一下，40歲以後，他的父母親也老了，父母親也要人照顧，而這些智能障礙者自己也需要人照顧，這一部分衛福部有沒有什麼規劃來介入幫忙？"],["邱部長泰源：非常謝謝委員關心到這個非常重要，而且可以慢慢形成一個必須關注的問題。我們最近到一些相關的機構去看，的確也發現到這個相當重要的問題，所以真的很感謝。我們在身心障礙者的部分，其實是全齡的納入，在長照2.0就已經把全齡納入，基本上只要是身心障礙者，理論上都應該可以得到長照，沒有限制65歲。"],["涂委員權吉：可是我們剛才有講，機構照顧的其實只有5%，可以說95%還是仰賴家庭照顧，他們到40歲以後，其實整體智能障礙者的老化速度比一般人還快，他們到40歲之後，其父母親也老了，而機構只有照顧5%，那麼其他的部分怎麼辦？衛福部有沒有注意到這個問題？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，是不是這個部分我請社家署周代理署長來幫忙回答？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，我們從114年到117年有一個身心障礙者社區照顧服務資源布建計畫，預期在114年到117年會在社區增加相關對於身障者的服務據點，到今年3月底止，大概已經有1,127個據點，已經服務到兩萬人左右，我們的計畫期程到117年預計會再增加695個據點，可以再增加1萬500人左右，大概會到接近3萬1,000人，這是我們整個對於……"],["涂委員權吉：剛剛我有講，現在日間照顧跟社區居住替代服務我知道有逐漸在發展、推廣，但是目前看起來，這個進度規模還是有限，我們今天提出來就是希望這一部分我們還是要好好替他們規劃，對於這些身障老者，我們希望基本上能夠有一個完整的規劃，然後衛福部能重視這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個很重要，我們一定重視，把它做好。"],["涂委員權吉：請衛福部針對這部分幫我們好好規劃一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["涂委員權吉：針對長照3.0，是透過巴氏量表來評估個案，評估重點為他是否有生活自理能力，可是一樣的，對於喜憨兒這一部分，他們很多生活可以自理，但是我們知道，他們在認知、情緒、社交各方面都有重重的障礙，可是我們在照服評估的部分，可能評估的結果是不符合失能，針對這一部分，因為評估的結果可能會沒有達到巴氏量表的標準，他們生活上可能可以自理，但是在認知、情緒、社交方面可能沒有辦法達到，這一部分我們要如何去照顧他們？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，長照基本上是用CMS評估量表來處理，巴氏量表其實是在評估聘用外籍看護。至於委員所提到的這個部分，我們怎麼樣周全性的評估，這個請司長回答一下。"],["祝司長健芳：委員，長照的評估不是用所謂的巴氏量表，所以他其實是……"],["涂委員權吉：長照3.0不是用巴氏量表？"],["祝司長健芳：不是，如果您關心巴氏量表是不是可以做一些調整，基本上因為現在聘外看的那一塊有多元免評的機制，所以目前勞動部主管的相關法規跟衛福部一起合作的部分已經有非常多多元免評的對象，不見得要到醫院去做巴氏量表的評估，先做以上的說明。"],["涂委員權吉：我們提出的意思是說，針對他們是不是能夠自理、有沒有符合失能，這部分單就巴氏量表，可能這些身障老者就沒有辦法達到，所以我們也希望對於失能評估工具的指標，是不是可以納入非身體性障礙的功能性退化指標？這一部分是不是可以納入？"],["祝司長健芳：現況就已經有，我們的CMS評估量表就是多元評估量表，裡面對於有情緒困擾的，還有一些心智障礙類的部分已經都有納進去。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這部分已經有納入了嘛？"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好，希望這一部分好好加強一下。"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["涂委員權吉：喜憨兒如果過了65歲，他們在身障體系裡面，日間照顧可能無法繼續使用，這些身障老人到長照老人日間照顧中心可能會被拒收。據我們了解，因為他們心智障礙，可能會吵鬧，甚至會有攻擊性的行為，所以對於這些身障老者，他們去照顧中心可能會被拒收，會不會面臨這樣的問題沒有辦法解決？"],["祝司長健芳：委員關心的這件事情，其實我們在長照2.0及支付制度上路的時候，針對有情緒困擾或者是不好照顧的對象，我們都有加成的給付，就是所謂A碼的政策性加成補助，幫忙讓這項服務提供單位有意願來照顧這些困難照顧的對象。後來又針對失智症有伴隨BPSD，就是所謂的情緒行為困擾對象，我們又額外再有一個加成，所以對於困難照顧的部分，其實都有兩個層次的相關加成。"],["涂委員權吉：據我們了解，很多機構要收喜憨兒這些老者其實也很困擾，我們會感覺他們是儘量不收，因為他也怕造成他的困擾，或者影響到其他人。所以我們說，針對身障長者，我們應該要有一個單一的服務窗口，可以統整日間照顧、喘息安置等福利的轉介，是不是可以針對他們這部分成立一個單一的服務窗口？"],["祝司長健芳：現階段其實包括是以障礙身分進到長照體系，或者以老人身分進到長照體系，本來就有一個橫向的聯繫平臺。"],["涂委員權吉：因為我們擔心他們會變成長照體系中的孤兒，雖然是規劃在裡面，但是機構是傾向不願意去收他們。"],["祝司長健芳：這一塊我們來努力，因為基本上目前日照中心全國有一千多家，如果要專收障礙者，尤其是心智障礙的話，基本上它的家數、它的可近性就不高，畢竟日照中心就是要方便交通接送，可以抵達得到的，所以目前我們的政策也不是在長照體系特別針對單一類型障礙者的日照，這樣其實它真的沒有辦法達到近便性，所以我們希望這一千多家都能夠服務各種不同類型的障礙者，採取共融的方式來使用這個資源。"],["涂委員權吉：對，據我們了解，對於身障長者，這些機構其實真的就是傾向儘量不收，所以我們擔心他們會成為我們長照體系中的孤兒，因為你看，這個機構裡面照顧他們的只有5%，95%基本上都是家庭照顧，家庭照顧他到40歲，當他老了以後，他的父母親更老，父母親也需要人家照顧，他如何去照顧這些身障的長者？長照3.0既然強調要照顧全人、全齡、全責任，我希望衛福部能夠具體針對身障長者這部分做改善，也希望能夠納入我們後續的討論，針對這部分能夠著重……"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們會來關注這個議題……"],["涂委員權吉：對，這部分其實我們在地方統統都知道，因為他們本身的一些情緒，甚至攻擊的行為，長照體系其實幾乎都是能不收就儘量不收，所以我們擔心他們會變成長照體系的孤兒，針對這部分，是不是能成立單一窗口特別來服務他們？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定來設立這樣的一個機制，最好的機制、最方便的機制，讓他們真的不要被忽略掉，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，因為你們說要推長照3.0，全人、全齡、全責任，希望這部分能夠凸顯……"],["邱部長泰源：一定不能遺漏任何一個。"],["涂委員權吉：對，這部分希望衛福部重視。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，感謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a9b8ab3a5369f6b52b9483b76f331b600da6ae3643212cc5f0ec021b76d1d478f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:18:09 - 11:31:24","影片長度":"00:13:15","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n  委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】\n【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T11:18:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T11:31:24+08:00","duration":795,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.06471875,"end":0.28409375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.85284375,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.48971875,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.754718750000002,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.78846875,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.36221875,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.26909375,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.47284375000001,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.51471875,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.98721875000001,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.74659375,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.52096875000001,"end":104.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.62221875,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.65596875,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.54909375000001,"end":114.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.41534375,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.18596875,"end":142.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.00409375,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.78784375,"end":152.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.47034375,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.76971875,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.22534375,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.27471875,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.96659375000002,"end":169.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.50909375,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.95596875,"end":183.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.54659375,"end":225.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.33784375000002,"end":223.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.18971875000003,"end":227.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.92784375000002,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.68659375000001,"end":242.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.01409375000003,"end":243.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.39784375000002,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.23659375000003,"end":251.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.87346875000003,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.40034375000002,"end":256.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.79659375,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.65284375000005,"end":259.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.76221875000005,"end":261.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.97721875,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.92596875000004,"end":267.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.01846875,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.03534375000004,"end":269.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.40659375,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.09409375,"end":278.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.79409375,"end":273.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.81096875000003,"end":274.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.74284375,"end":286.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.61909375,"end":320.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.42909375,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.26346875,"end":325.5328437500000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部長好 部長我先就今天這個要修這個老人福利法第48條的條文修正草案的部分那我記得在去年的時候我有邀請這個呂次長到地方跟所有的住宿機構大家做一個"},{"start":33.158,"end":53.404,"text":"這個協調因為我們知道就是說我們所有的老人福利機構他的評鑑是原本是有分那個等地就是甲乙丙丁那一般的這個長照機構的評鑑是用這個合格跟不合格那會造成我們所有住宿機構的一些困擾"},{"start":54.124,"end":82.877,"text":"那當時地方的這些機構他們認為就是說所有的這個住宿機構各類的住宿機構的評鑑應該是要一致所以我們看到就是說衛福部在這一次有提出來就是有關這個老人福利法第48條的一個修正草案那我們是樂見因為你們已經提出來那另外就是說在這個法還沒有未來通過之前可能會有一個過渡期"},{"start":83.717,"end":111.188,"text":"那像這樣子的話你們會有什麼樣的因應措施郭主席主席還有非常感謝委員對於這個議題的關心我也記得是我們典禮有那個委員會非常關心我們的長照尤其我們的老人福利機構還有各項機構有相關的品質提升然後裡面委員就是機構他們那邊有提出就是說這裡面是不是可以把它簡化"},{"start":112.669,"end":128.668,"text":"我們護理之家嘛還有其他我們現在那個常夫法那邊全部都是合格不合格那唯獨只有我們這個老人福利法我們老人福利機構這邊還有加一餅丁嘛那我們現在目前就是從善如流就是按照我們那個委員上次的建議還有我們就把它簡化"},{"start":129.349,"end":137.095,"text":"然後讓這一個我們的這個機構可以專心來照顧我們的這一個長輩這第一點 第二點我們現在目前在整個這個還是要這個整個通過還是要在這個大院這邊來來預修正合併來通過那麼在這之前我們就是來會來輔導那個各地方的業者來進化來盡量我想這個相關的評鑑的一個部分我們朝簡化的方面來輔導他們"},{"start":159.312,"end":183.083,"text":"是以上謝謝好我們希望就是說我們這些老人福利機構他應該是把精神全部就是集中在照顧我們的長輩或照顧這些住民那這個評鑑的部分我覺得應該是簡化我覺得這應該是大家的一個共識那也非常感謝衛福部真的是從山如流那接下來我想請教部長就是"},{"start":184.123,"end":200.818,"text":"我們今天有關這個生權法的部分那在前一陣子這個媒體上面都會有講到這個不論是公車啦捷運啦或者是我們的這個鐵路也許都會有這個優先席或者我們講的博愛座啦那後來我們認為就是說這個博愛座應該要有一些調整因為讓"},{"start":207.323,"end":231.961,"text":"有需要的人來使用這個我覺得這個應該是大家的共識那我看到就是說衛福部這邊因為我們沒有看到衛福部這邊的版本可是委員的版本就是說博愛座改為優先席那博愛座改為優先席你們的我是覺得應該跟博愛座或改成優先席我是覺得都差不了多少啦"},{"start":232.802,"end":261.29,"text":"那我想聽聽衛福部這邊為什麼你們會同意就是說博愛座改為優先席那你們認為說這個預期的效果會是怎樣是的 因為博愛座這這麼多年來大家深耕地固的一個觀念就是老弱婦孺嘛所以才會引起可能有些人覺得我的像年輕人可能他生理期很不舒服這學生也很多啦 老實講"},{"start":263.032,"end":270.066,"text":"那也有一些真的身體不舒服的那這樣會引起紛爭當然我們希望"},{"start":271.101,"end":294.858,"text":"我們的社會永遠都是互相關懷互相支持但是給實際上需要的人這才是核心精神那我也看到就是說我們原本的博愛座底下也有有這樣一行字就是說請優先禮讓座位給需要的旅客那可是我們現在還是會有一些爭議就是說我們在媒體上面也會看到很多也許長輩他覺得說這個博愛座應該是要優先禮讓給他"},{"start":298.399,"end":319.566,"text":"所以在這個幾次的我們看到就是在去年有一個民調就是說你認為博愛桌是不是要廢除那有63%的人覺得說應該要廢除那我們今天這個有關生權法的這個部分有特別委員部分委員有提出來那我想我最想要聽就是說"},{"start":321.526,"end":345.951,"text":"衛福部這邊會同意就是說有博愛座改為優先席那你們未預期的效果是會覺得說博愛座改成優先席大家看到這個優先席就會主動禮讓或者是也許會變成就像日本一樣他們現在也是用優先席啊可是他們還是有這樣的一個狀況出現啊就是說其他這個旁邊還有空位嘛那"},{"start":348.453,"end":367.45,"text":"這個應該是說喬治亞駐日的這個大使他因為自己在網路上面POPO就是說他做這個捷運然後就是在上面可以很悠閒的看書可是就讓網友可能就直接對他的一些批評那我看到就是說這個上面他也是寫優先席"},{"start":369.051,"end":384.722,"text":"同樣也會有這樣的一個狀況所以我想請教就是說未來台灣如果由博愛座改為優先席的話部長你認為就是說會有這種被嚴上的這樣的一個狀況會減少嗎或者是你們認為要怎麼去做會更好第一個就是謝謝委員關心指導這個議題"},{"start":393.988,"end":421.175,"text":"我想既然已經這個目標就是實際上需求者那這個部分可能對老人家會覺得根深蒂固的觀念這可能需要先導那這個部分就是交通部會多元化來先導那當然這個是因為可能是沒有人做吧要就自己做我覺得不要用這樣一張圖就來代表好像"},{"start":422.075,"end":436.875,"text":"他好像不懂不體貼這樣子當然是這樣子可是就是說很多可能也許網友或者是說其他的人可能對他有一些批評我今天的這個議題我最主要想要問就是說原本我們博愛做"},{"start":438.997,"end":453.201,"text":"部分委員有提出來就是說改為優先席啦那衛福部這邊也寫說這個競表支持那我想聽的就是說衛福部你這邊認為不愛做改為優先席就會有這樣的這種爭議的議題就會減少嗎"},{"start":456.055,"end":474.385,"text":"我相信如果宣導的好的話應該會減少爭議大家更能夠注意到其實各年齡層都有他需求的一面反而是會互相世代的一個互相照顧更加的促進世代的照顧應該是一個正向的方向"},{"start":475.165,"end":491.65,"text":"我不知道说部长在你年轻的时候也许在学校可能会有一些宣导就是说看到这个需要的人或者是老人家或者是孕妇或者是需要的人看到之后即使不是在博外做的话你也会礼让"},{"start":492.43,"end":516.887,"text":"也許在那個以前學校我不知道說部長有沒有這樣的經驗那現在我覺得說應該是讓所有的民眾這個有一個觀念不一定是要博愛座或是優先席只要是任何的一個位置在你的周邊的民眾有這個需要的話應該大家就是都要禮讓我覺得應該要有這樣的一個觀念我非常支持這樣的理念是"},{"start":518.968,"end":547.867,"text":"而不是說你弄一個這個博愛座改為優先席會讓更多這個我是存疑啦所以大家可以討論啦另外就是說我們也在這一次就是說這個設置的比例不得低於原本就是說不得低於這個總座位數的比例15%那可能要增加到20%那我不知道說衛福部這邊的意見是怎樣"},{"start":550.185,"end":567.191,"text":"我們尊重交通部的...我們一直都是在這個部分都一直尊重交通部的規劃那交通部他們有沒有什麼樣的意見?交通部有沒有意見?交通部有來?可不可以...副市長喔?對副市長來"},{"start":572.27,"end":599.539,"text":"跟委員報告那其實就如董委員講的其實是優先洗的那個不愛做是給有需要的人來做那其實我們在我們覺得是重要的工作其實還是在於宣導所以其實數量其實我們一直覺得現在的食物其實已經不是問題啦就說大概也沒有所謂執行的摯愛其實在宣導工作其實我們是建議維持現行就好不需要再增加到百分之二十以上"},{"start":600.919,"end":626.253,"text":"其實我剛剛的一個意見就是應該是要讓所有的民眾知道就是說不一定是在這個博愛座改為優先席一旦是有民眾有這個需求的話即使他不是博愛座不是優先席的話你還是要離讓我覺得應該是要有這樣的一個觀念存在要不然我今天如果再提一個我把這個總比例"},{"start":627.614,"end":646.402,"text":"由15改為20或者是由15改為30甚至100%那我覺得這個應該也沒有多大的意義啦我覺得應該是讓需要的人都可以去做所有的位置而不是只是固定在這個博外座或者是優先席對我覺得這個優良的傳統應該是"},{"start":649.315,"end":667.327,"text":"要留著啦 因為這的確是會符合互相幫忙的一個所以不是說只有在不管是博愛還是優先席所有的座位理論上看到需要的人如果你自己覺得你可以的話應該是讓座這樣子是一個很好的"},{"start":668.208,"end":682.972,"text":"好那我現在就是說希望衛福部或者是交通部這邊因為我也聽到就是在廣播上面他也就是也有在針對這個博愛做有做一些宣傳就是說禮讓給需要的人禮讓給需要的人所以就是不需要"},{"start":686.913,"end":708.127,"text":"特意去把這個名字不外作改為優先席其實我會存疑就是說你名字改完之後那後續還是會有一些爭議啦這個是我的意見所以我希望就是說衛福部應該你們自己要提出你們自己的一個未來要怎麼讓這樣的一個爭議減少而不是只是把名稱改掉而已"},{"start":708.607,"end":721.002,"text":"所以我想這個我們會持續來研究人的一個想法,譬如說如果你屈我這個就是有嫌疑這是我個人的看法,有嫌疑其他的就"},{"start":723.031,"end":738.23,"text":"你就安心看書休息就不用因為有些人還是非常非常的善良擔心說有誰我沒有讓到位置我心裡不安那至少我們有一個優先席是給這些人其實這個部分"},{"start":739.071,"end":762.988,"text":"也是有他的意義的存在當然普遍性盡量能夠讓給需要的人這不只在公車上在任何地方都是應該要互相幫忙是好我們希望就是說不是只是改名字而已啦應該是要多宣傳然後讓需要的人不只是在這個優先席或博愛座在其他的位置其實大家都可以這樣子理讓給需要的人"},{"start":763.168,"end":787.447,"text":"好的,是,謝謝,謝謝委員長好,市長市長要補充 委員剛好,對於老人福利機構平建那邊的配套措施,我再補充一點現在就是說,如果這個如果通過的話我們下一次,中央的這一個老人福利機構的平建是116年所以116年就可以開始試用這第二點,第二點,因為每四年一次嘛第二,地方這邊如果有其他的,有他們自己置平的話也試用這個辦法,以上兩點補充,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":791.051,"end":791.513,"text":"好 謝謝洪偉 謝謝部長 次長那接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":806,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時18分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。我先就今天要修老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案的部分，我記得去年有邀請呂次長到地方跟所有的住宿機構做協調，因為我們知道所有老人福利機構的評鑑原本是有分等第，就是甲、乙、丙、丁，一般長照機構的評鑑是用合格跟不合格，那會造成住宿機構的一些困擾。當時地方的這些機構認為各類住宿機構的評鑑應該是要一致，所以我們看到衛福部這一次有提出老人福利法第四十八條的修正草案，那我們是樂見，因為你們已經提出來。另外，在這部法未來通過之前，可能會有一個過渡期，像這樣子的話，你們會有什麼樣的因應措施？"],["邱部長泰源：請呂次長回答。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這個議題的關心，我也記得是去年有委員非常關心我們的長照，尤其是老人福利機構及各項機構相關的品質提升，機構有提出這裡面是不是可以把它簡化，護理之家及長服法的機構全部都是合格、不合格，唯獨只有老人福利法，即老人福利機構這邊還有甲、乙、丙、丁，我們目前就是從善如流，按照委員上次的建議，就把它簡化，讓機構可以專心來照顧長輩，這是第一點。第二點，目前整個通過還是有賴大院這邊予以修正及通過，在這之前，我們會來輔導各地方的業者儘量對相關的評鑑朝簡化的方向進行。以上，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望這些老人福利機構應該把精神全部集中在照顧長輩或是照顧這些住民。評鑑的部分，我覺得應該簡化，這應該是大家的共識，也非常感謝衛福部真的是從善如流。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員秀芳：接下來我想請教部長，我們今天有關身權法的部分，前一陣子媒體上面都有講到，不論是公車、捷運或是鐵路，也許都會有優先席，或者是我們講的博愛座，後來我們認為博愛座應該要有一些調整，讓有需要的人使用，我覺得這應該是大家的共識。因為我們沒有看到衛福部這邊的版本，可是委員的版本有提到博愛座改為優先席，用博愛座或改成優先席，我覺得差不了多少啦！我想聽聽衛福部這邊的想法，為什麼你們會同意博愛座改為優先席？你們認為預期的效果會是怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，因為博愛座這麼多年來，大家根深蒂固的觀念就是老弱婦孺嘛！所以才會引起可能有些人覺得……像年輕人可能生理期很不舒服，這樣的學生也很多，老實講，也有一些真的身體不舒服的，這樣會引起紛爭，當然我們希望我們的社會永遠都是互相關懷、互相支持，但是給實際上需要的人這才是核心精神。"],["黃委員秀芳：我也看到我們原本的博愛座底下有這樣一行字，就是請優先禮讓座位給需要的旅客，可是現在還是會有一些爭議，我們在媒體上面也看到很多，也許長輩他覺得博愛座應該是要優先禮讓給他。我們看到去年有一個民調是你認為博愛座是不是要廢除，有63%的人覺得應該要廢除。我們今天有關身權法的這個部分，有部分委員提出來，我想我最想要聽的是衛福部這邊會同意博愛座改為優先席，你們預期的效果是覺得博愛座改成優先席，大家看到優先席就會主動禮讓，或者是也許會變成像日本一樣？日本現在也是用優先席，可是他們還是有這樣的狀況出現，就是旁邊還有空位，應該是說喬治亞駐日的大使，他因為自己在網路上面po他坐捷運，在上面可以很悠閒地看書，可是就有網友直接對他做一些批評，就是上面寫優先席同樣也會有這樣的狀況。所以我想請教，未來臺灣如果由博愛座改為優先席的話，部長，你認為這種被「炎上」的狀況會減少嗎？或者是你們認為要怎麼做會更好？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，謝謝委員關心、指導這個議題，我想既然目標就是實際上的需求者，這個部分可能有老人家有根深蒂固的觀念，這可能需要宣導啦，這個部分就是交通部會多元化來宣導。當然這個是因為可能是沒有人坐，他就坐了，我覺得不要用這樣一張圖就代表好像他不體貼這樣子，有時候整個車廂都沒人。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然是這樣子，可是可能很多網友或者其他的人對他有一些批評。我今天的這個議題最主要想要問，原本是博愛座，有部分委員提出改為優先席，衛福部這邊也寫說敬表支持，我想聽的就是衛福部這邊認為博愛座改為優先席，這種爭議就會減少嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我相信如果宣導得好的話應該會減少爭議，大家更能夠注意到其實各年齡層都有他需求的一面，反而是世代間的互相照顧，更加促進世代的照顧，應該是一個正向的方向。"],["黃委員秀芳：我不知道部長在你年輕的時候，也許在學校會有一些宣導，就是看到需要的人或者是老人家或者是孕婦，看到之後即使不是在博愛座的話你也會禮讓，也許以前學校……"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：我不知道部長有沒有這樣的經驗，現在我覺得應該是讓所有的民眾有一個觀念，不一定是博愛座或者是優先席，只要是任何一個位置，在你周邊的民眾有需要的話，應該大家都要禮讓，我覺得應該要有這樣的觀念。"],["邱部長泰源：我非常支持這樣的理念。"],["黃委員秀芳：而不是弄一個博愛座改為優先席，會讓更多……這個我是存疑啦！大家可以討論。另外，我們也在這一次，設置的比例原本是不得低於總座位數的比例15%，可能要增加到20%，我不知道衛福部這邊的意見是怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我們尊重交通部，我們在這個部分都一直尊重交通部的規劃。"],["黃委員秀芳：交通部他們有沒有什麼樣的意見？"],["邱部長泰源：交通部有來，可不可以……"],["主席：副司長來。"],["胡副司長廸琦：跟委員報告，就如同委員講的，博愛座是給有需要的人來坐，我們覺得重要的工作其實還是在於宣導，所以我們一直覺得現在的15%已經不是問題了，就是大概也沒有所謂執行的窒礙，其實是宣導工作，我們是建議維持現行就好，不需要再增加到20%，以上。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我剛剛的意見應該是要讓所有的民眾知道，不一定是博愛座改為優先席，而是一旦有民眾有這個需求的話，即使它不是博愛座、不是優先席，你還是要禮讓。我覺得應該是要有這樣的觀念存在，要不然我今天如果再提一個把總比例由15%改為20%，或者是由15%改為30%甚至100%，我覺得這應該也沒有多大的意義。我覺得應該是讓需要的人都可以去坐所有的位置，而不只是固定在博愛座或者是優先席。"],["邱部長泰源：對，我覺得這個優良的傳統應該是要留著啦，因為這的確也符合互相幫忙的，所以不管是博愛座或優先席，所有的座位，理論上看到需要的人，如果你自己覺得你可以的話，應該是讓座，是一個很好的……"],["黃委員秀芳：我現在是希望衛福部或者是交通部這邊，因為我也聽到在廣播上面也有在針對博愛座做一些宣傳，就是禮讓給需要的人，所以不需要特意去把博愛座改為優先席。其實我會存疑的是名字改完之後，後續還是會有一些爭議，這個是我的意見，所以我希望衛福部你們自己應該要提出你們自己未來要怎麼讓這樣的爭議減少，而不只是把名稱改掉而已。"],["邱部長泰源：所以委員，我想我們會仔細來研究人的想法，譬如說如果你區隔這個就是優先席，這是我個人的看法，其他的就不用……等於你坐了就可以安心看書或是休息，因為有些人還是非常非常善良，擔心有誰需要而我沒有讓位，我心裡不安，至少我們有一個優先席是給這些人，其實這個部分也是有它的意義存在，當然普遍性儘量能夠讓給需要的人，這不只在公車上，在任何地方都是應該要互相幫忙。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望不只是改名字而已，應該是要多宣傳，然後讓需要的人不只是在優先席或博愛座，在其他的位置，其實大家都可以這樣子禮讓給需要的人。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長要補充？"],["呂次長建德：委員剛剛提到老人福利機構評鑑那邊的配套措施，我再補充一點，現在就是如果這個通過的話，下一次中央對老人福利機構的評鑑是116年，所以116年就可以開始適用，這是第一點，因為每4年一次。第二點，地方這邊如果有其他自己的自評的話，也適用這個辦法。以上兩點補充，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長、次長。接下來請涂權吉委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-18","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","涂權吉","王正旭","陳培瑜","范雲","陳瑩","楊曜","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；二、審查( 一) 委員許宇甄等18 人擬具\n「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(七)\n委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11006882\n號】、(八)委員魯明哲等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員傅崐萁等24人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷\n等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員邱若華等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」案【提案第11010755號】；三、審查(一)\n委員范雲等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員郭昱晴等19人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員何欣純等17人擬具「身心障礙\n者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十\n三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十\n條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十)委員柯志恩等\n18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等17人擬\n具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員馬文君等19人擬具「身\n心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員廖偉\n翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案、(十四)委員廖偉翔等19\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障\n礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障\n法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條\n之一條文草案」案、(十八)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十九)委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二\n十)委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員邱若\n華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員劉建國等17\n人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處\n理第一案及第二案】","agenda_id":"1146302_00001"}}},{"id":"162780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a08a71a56575329c77f2aef3382ea3fb0da6ae3643212cc5f1345feb9e96ac4965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:25:23 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11:38:59","影片長度":"00:13:36","會議時間":"2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-23","start_time":"2025-06-23T11:25:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-23T11:38:59+08:00","duration":816,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.8109687500000002,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.059093750000002,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.41721875,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.750343750000003,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.56409375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.88846875,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.31034375,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.81596875,"end":106.57971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.24034375,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.64284375000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.18596875,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.84784375000001,"end":163.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.46971875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.97596875000002,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.10221875000002,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.77721875,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.65096875,"end":165.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.60846875000001,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.29596875000001,"end":169.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.72971875000002,"end":192.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.67159375,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.49784375000002,"end":253.54409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.46784375000001,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.23096875000002,"end":232.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.26471875000001,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.31534375,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.05034375000002,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.34471875,"end":277.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.18846875,"end":262.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.15284375000005,"end":273.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.19471875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.62034375,"end":279.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.04596875000004,"end":283.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.58159375,"end":285.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.15096875,"end":295.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.21846875,"end":285.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.88346875,"end":389.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.34159375,"end":307.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.24846875000003,"end":403.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.55846875000003,"end":412.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.50659375000004,"end":415.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.93221875,"end":417.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.77159375,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.76159375000003,"end":428.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.47034375000004,"end":430.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.12409375000004,"end":436.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.16096875000005,"end":438.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.31284375,"end":447.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.53909375,"end":462.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":463.23284375000003,"end":468.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.27409375,"end":472.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.29034375000003,"end":474.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.29846875000004,"end":552.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.78409375,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.37471875,"end":564.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.19596875,"end":566.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.15784375,"end":575.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.29971875,"end":584.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.7665937500001,"end":592.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.7490937499999,"end":591.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.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那麼這邊先有請黃次長黃次長待會還有那個陳廷長陳怡陳廷長"},{"start":23.483,"end":36.527,"text":"我們知道其實這個我有看到法務部的資料在這兩次的報告裡面其實也都有顯示出目前我們的看守所基本上都有超收的狀況"},{"start":37.467,"end":48.059,"text":"至少有12家看守所當中就有10家的看守所是超收而且超收的比率還蠻高 將近30%由此可見就是這個矯正所還有其實當然還有監獄都人滿為患"},{"start":53.786,"end":82.569,"text":"那麼我們再看看就是地方檢察署他的向法院申請的羈押人數其實也是逐年攀高而且法院裁定准許的羈押人數的比例都將近高達八成那麼事實上就是我們知道這個如果說八成的這犯罪嫌疑人都會被裁定羈押的話那麼這當然有可能就是會造成我們現在的看守所"},{"start":83.369,"end":105.827,"text":"裡面的這個容納量會明顯的會超出原來的這個負荷那麼當然這個羈押它本身是對於犯罪行為犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的剝奪在行使申請羈押以及法院裁定羈押的時候其實都要特別注意到有關於犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的保障那麼"},{"start":107.737,"end":118.415,"text":"事實上我想請教法務部跟司法院就是你們認為現行羈押制度有沒有需要改進的地方包含羈押的要件、期間次數等等"},{"start":119.909,"end":146.489,"text":"我先跟委員說明 所謂的八成並不是所有的被告的八成因為可以看到委員畫面上呈現這個表事實上所有的新收偵查人數是在最左邊那八成是指其中檢察官如果有向法院來申請羈押的那個核准率大概是八成其實也不到八成 大概都是從七成四 七成三現在到最近是大概七成八 七成九左右"},{"start":147.35,"end":176.585,"text":"那這個部分因為是刺涉這個偵查的具體個案的內容所以這個判斷權是在這個報案的甲官身上那所以說這個部分呢我想要尊重這個甲官甲機關行使他法定職權的這個權利那這個法院的部分我們再請是因為我想現在的這個羈押制度這個民間有很多的批評"},{"start":177.421,"end":191.83,"text":"那麼我們有看到有一些看起來是輕罪但是也是去涉及羈押然後呢這個羈押的時間而且越拖越長所以這個部分來講的話司法院有沒有參考其他國家的制度要進行相關的檢討"},{"start":194.15,"end":214.99,"text":"跟委員報告這個關於刑事羈押的部分其實是涉及到刑事政策委員剛才講說有沒有修正的必要這個是涉及到刑事政策跟制度的檢討那至於個案中這個才準博羈押的決定那我想還是尊重法官在個案裡面"},{"start":215.43,"end":227.5,"text":"好的一個一個職權的行使那因為我今天是就本院這個來關於獄政跟受刑人處遇的是好了因為陳廷長並不是刑事廳的廳長所以這邊的話可能沒有辦法就是很完整的"},{"start":234.265,"end":258.783,"text":"來談這個議題那麼我想在這裡的話就是可能要請司法院之後要給我一份報告或者是我不知道現在司法院有沒有一套客觀的評估標準就是可以協助法官來判斷是否有逃亡或再犯風險有沒有採驗證據串證涉及到核准羈押的相關的作業標準對這個部分不知道就是司法院是不是自己有訂定一個內部的"},{"start":260.787,"end":282.346,"text":"報告委員 因為形式部分我不是很熟悉那如果委員今天垂詢的事項有具體的指示那我都可以帶回到院裡面然後委員需要說書面的再跟委員說明我們也可以配合辦理如果說你們有評估標準的話把這個部分送給我有關於羈押"},{"start":285.588,"end":294.594,"text":"制壓的相關制度如果司法院自己內部過去曾經有做過相關研習報告或者是說你們自己已經有訂定一套可以客觀"},{"start":297.298,"end":312.355,"text":"這個協助法官可以客觀評估相關的羈押的這個標準的規則那也請你們提供給我至少我們在網路上面我好像沒有看到你們有訂立相關的標準那接下來我要請教的另外一個問題就是說因為本席從109年的監察院的報告書裡面有看到"},{"start":316.64,"end":320.682,"text":"就是經過司法院自己的統計形式補償的事件從101年到109年8月核准的補償確定的統計件數是903件核准的補償金額是3億5000多萬元那可是像失職公務員求償成功的案件數只有5件求償的成功的金額只有23萬"},{"start":339.369,"end":360.164,"text":"那么就这个议题来讲请教为什么对于刑事补偿的案件向失职公务员求偿的成功率是如此之低那么原因是何在我们知道其实依照刑事补偿法里面的规定只要是依照刑事诉讼法军事审判法少年事件处理法等等这些受理的案件受害人如果因为行为不法"},{"start":360.624,"end":389.325,"text":"或是犯罪嫌疑不足而经过不起诉处分或是撤回起诉受驳回起诉裁定或无罪的判决确定之前他曾经有受过积压、鉴定、留置或收容的情况那么受害人都可以请求国家赔偿那么我们可以看到在过去的这些年101年到109年当时这个核准可以去补偿这些受害人的确定件数就高达903件然后核准的金额也非常高3亿多万"},{"start":390.27,"end":416.34,"text":"那就代表說基本上就是法官或檢察官在核准這些案件 抵押案件或收留案件的這個程序上面可能有失誤所以呢才會給予受害人有補償嘛對 那但是事後的這個部分有關於再去追究像失職公務員求償的情況當時是說有五件 那到目前為止求償的狀況如何"},{"start":418.207,"end":446.58,"text":"報告委員這一個部分如果委員要很精確的統計資料的話那我們可能也是會後再提供給委員可以嗎因為我手邊目前也沒有資料那法務部有沒有知道相關的訊息跟委員報告因為相關這個法令跟委員會面上所講的這個球場審查委員會都是司法院的辦理的業務大家歡迎請司法院再提供給我一直到現在為止到底這個成功的向失職的公務員球場的案件數"},{"start":447.901,"end":461.339,"text":"有多少然後以及他就是以及這個球場比例那麼我們當然認為說如果說從現在的球場的這個情況來看的話雖然說這些年來是有下降但是這下降的情況"},{"start":463.348,"end":483.068,"text":"事實上我也覺得也挺訝異的就是跟之前的比怎麼會差別那麼多是因為這個我們的在整個審查這個羈押的相關的作業越來越精準還是說是這個申請的駁回率很高那這個部分的話因為我們也"},{"start":483.669,"end":491.233,"text":"看不太出來實際的情況那麼這個如果說你們有最近這段時間從110年到113年或114年目前的有關於球場的狀況的資料那麼也麻煩請你也一併這個請司法院給我相關的統計資料"},{"start":505.32,"end":527.927,"text":"好 那麼接下來我要問的問題就是有關於高齡化犯罪的問題我們知道其實現在65歲以上高齡犯罪的人口是逐年攀升依照內政部警政署的統計從去年113年的9到12月高齡犯罪的嫌疑人就9000多人那麼今年又再增加了2000人來到11000"},{"start":531.869,"end":552.38,"text":"148人所以高齡犯罪的處遇相關的法律規範以及配套措施基本上是一個非常重要的議題那麼我們再想請教法務部就是目前針對高齡犯罪者的犯罪預防和處遇的部分你們有沒有進行過相關的研究以及目前提供有哪些特殊的措施以及規範"},{"start":554.464,"end":572.18,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們是主責犯罪偵查跟起訴以及後續刑罰的執行犯罪預防的部分可能要請教其他單位那請 那個委員所提出來的數據大概就是兩劑就是去年第四劑跟今年的第一劑"},{"start":573.041,"end":589.617,"text":"那兩季的比較可能就是剛好這個數字有降可能要看更長期的資料來確定說這個高齡化的情形如何當然因為我們國家進入高齡化社會人口的比例本身就要變化了所以這個部分到底相關性如何我們會再去看一下那這邊的話是可以請周署長"},{"start":591.178,"end":616.966,"text":"除业部分我再请周署长来说明一下因为我们知道现在最近光是看到几个严重的车祸可能都是高龄者所造成的那么当然现在高龄犯罪的问题就是这些受刑人他们可能本身或许有失智或是其他一些疾病的一些状况那么就矫正机关这里有没有什么一些特别的考量给他们做一些特殊的处理"},{"start":617.646,"end":642.439,"text":"是 報告委員我們針對這個法令的部分我們已經修訂了所謂的高齡受刑人的生活指引處於指引另外我們對於每個監獄要求他們要落實所謂的老人工廠被高齡的受刑人要給他適合他的工廠另外就是說我們對於"},{"start":643.94,"end":656.407,"text":"醫療院所的合作醫療院所我們會盡量來所謂的老年門診的部分來加強當然這個還要跟衛福部再做溝通做一些協調這方面我們也會來加強辦理"},{"start":659.675,"end":687.948,"text":"對 現在因為有學者有建議是不是我們政府應該要參考少年事件處理法的這個法規來訂定一個高齡的專法這當然是有人有這樣的建議那我認為說其實現在台灣已經步入到所謂超高齡社會那未來可能高齡犯罪的情況會越來越嚴重 越來越多那麼我認為說法務部 矯正署等等這裡其實都要提早做一些準備那麼看起來你們現在也只是就是在個案"},{"start":688.488,"end":705.309,"text":"的部分自己監索內部做一些這個特別的處理但是呢就未來整體制度來講可能跟衛福部或是在執行就法務部矯正署這裡應該可以更積極的參考其他國家的法制提出更"},{"start":707.231,"end":728.376,"text":"更好的一個相關的法規範市公委員報告對於高齡受刑人民國96年我剛好有機會奉派去考察日本的監所刑務所那其實他們對於高齡受刑人而且有傷高的這些慢性疾病者"},{"start":728.996,"end":742.9,"text":"他們是有編制營養師他每天的卡路里相關的他們在96年就有營養師我非常羨慕當然我們現在堅守沒有營養師將來我們可能面臨高齡的挑戰將來可能營養師是有必要減輕他等於是說這些病"},{"start":752.93,"end":769.808,"text":"等於慢性病減少他的外衣營養是不是給他吃好而是說對他的身體有益的一些調配是 我了解這個周署長這邊民國96年的時候去參考過去看過日本的制度因為現在大概又過了將近"},{"start":771.149,"end":784.534,"text":"二十年吧就是這幾年可能日本那裡有一些變化甚至他們可能更精進他們的這個照顧高齡受刑人的相關的制度所以有機會的話可以再去看看他們那裡的實際的做法那麼我想就是說剛周署長講到營養師引進營養師這個概念很好但是我們其實現在連介護人力比裡面都是明顯的不足"},{"start":794.817,"end":812.186,"text":"這個不管是攝服人力啦還有這個教化人力等等這個是全面都不需要去檢討相關人力運用的問題好那我們這邊的話也希望就是周署長能夠加把勁在這個矯正的人力的地補上面能夠提出一個更好的一個方案好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時25分）謝謝主席，先有請黃次長，待會再請程怡怡廳長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：黃次長好。我有看到法務部的資料，在這一、兩次的報告裡面，其實也都有顯示出，目前我們的看守所基本上都有超收的狀況，12家看守所當中就有10家超收，而且超收比率還滿高的，將近30%，由此可見，矯正署當然還有監獄都人滿為患。我們再看看地方檢察署向法院聲請羈押的人數，其實也是逐年攀高，而且法院裁定准許羈押人數的比率都將近高達八成，事實上，我們知道如果八成的犯罪嫌疑人都會被裁定羈押的話，當然有可能會造成我們現在看守所裡面的容納量明顯超出原來的負荷。當然這個羈押本身是對於犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的剝奪，在行使聲請羈押以及法院裁定羈押的時候，其實都要特別注意到有關犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的保障。我想請教法務部跟司法院，你們認為現行羈押制度有沒有需要改進的地方，包含羈押的要件、期間、次數等等？"],["黃次長世杰：我先跟委員說明，所謂的八成並不是所有被告的八成，可以看到委員畫面上呈現的這個表，事實上所有的新收偵查人數是在最左邊，那八成是指其中檢察官如果有向法院聲請羈押的，那個核准率大概是八成，其實也不到八成，大概從七成四、七成三，到最近大概是七成八、七成九左右。這個部分事涉偵查的具體個案內容，所以判斷權是在辦案的檢察官身上，因此這個部分要尊重檢察機關行使法定職權的權力。法院的部分再請司法院。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在的羈押制度民間有很多的批評，有一些看起來是輕罪但是也涉及羈押，而且羈押的時間也越拖越長，這個部分司法院有沒有參考其他國家的制度要進行相關的檢討？"],["程廳長怡怡：跟委員報告，關於刑事羈押的部分，其實是涉及到刑事政策……委員剛才講說有沒有修正的必要，這個涉及到刑事政策跟制度的檢討，至於個案中准駁羈押的決定，我想還是尊重法官在個案裡面的職權行使。因為我今天是就本院關於獄政跟受刑人處遇方面來做報告，這一部分如果……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，了解，因為程廳長並不是刑事廳的廳長，所以可能沒有辦法很完整的來談這個議題。"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：這部分可能請司法院之後要給我一份報告，或者我不知道現在司法院有沒有一套客觀的評估標準可以協助法官來判斷是否有逃亡、再犯風險、湮滅證據、串證等等涉及到核准羈押的相關作業標準，這個部分司法院是不是自己有訂定一個內部的評斷標準？"],["程廳長怡怡：報告委員，因為刑事部分我不是很熟悉，如果委員今天垂詢的事項有具體的指示，我都可以帶回到院裡面，然後委員需要書面或再跟委員說明，我們也可以配合辦理。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，如果你們有評估標準的話，再麻煩你們一個禮拜之內把這個部分送給我做參考。"],["程廳長怡怡：關於羈押的……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，有關於羈押的相關制度，如果司法院自己內部過去曾經有做過相關研析報告，或者你們自己已經有訂定一套可以協助法官客觀評估相關羈押的標準、規則，也請你們提供給我，至少我們在網路上面好像沒有看到你們有訂定相關的標準。"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要請教的另外一個問題就是，本席從109年的監察院報告書裡面有看到，經過司法院自己的統計，刑事補償案件從101年到109年8月核准補償確定的統計件數是903件，核准的補償金額是三億五千多萬元，可是向失職公務員求償成功的案件數只有5件，求償成功的金額只有23萬。就這個議題來講，想請教為什麼對於刑事補償案件向失職公務員求償的成功率是如此之低，那麼原因是何在？","我們知道其實依照刑事補償法裡面的規定，只要是依照刑事訴訟法、軍事審判法、少年事件處理法等等的受理案件，受害人若因行為不罰或是犯罪嫌疑不足而經不起訴處分或撤回起訴、受駁回起訴裁定或無罪判決確定之前，他曾經有受過羈押、鑑定留置或收容的情況，那麼受害人都可以請求國家賠償。","我們可以看到，過去101年到109年核准可以去補償這些受害人的確定件數就高達903件，然後核准的金額也非常高，三億多！那就代表說，基本上法官或檢察官在核准這些羈押案件或收留案件的程序上面可能有失誤，所以才會給予受害人補償。但是事後關於再去追究、向失職公務員求償的情況，當時只有5件，到目前為止，求償的狀況如何？"],["程廳長怡怡：報告委員，這一個部分如果委員要很精確的統計資料的話，我們可能也是會後再提供給委員，可以嗎？因為我手邊目前也沒有資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：法務部有沒有知道相關的訊息？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為這個法令跟委員畫面上所講的這個求償審查委員會都是司法院辦理的業務，所以我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：好。這樣的話也請司法院再提供給我，一直到現在為止，到底成功向失職公務員求償的案件數有多少以及求償比例。如果從現在的求償情況來看，雖然這些年來有下降，但是對於下降的情況實際上我也覺得挺訝異的，跟之前的比怎麼會差別那麼多，是因為我們在整個審查羈押的相關作業越來越精準，還是申請的駁回率很高？這個部分我們也看不太出來實際的情況，如果你們有最近這段時間，從110年到113年或114年目前有關於求償狀況的資料，也麻煩請司法院一併給我相關的統計資料。","接下來我要問的問題就是關於高齡化犯罪的問題，我們知道其實現在65歲以上高齡犯罪的人口是逐年攀升，依照內政部警政署的統計，去（113）年9到12月高齡犯罪的嫌疑人就有九千多人，今年又再增加了2,000人，來到1萬1,148人，所以高齡犯罪處遇相關的法律規範以及配套措施基本上是一個非常重要的議題。我想再請教法務部的就是，目前針對高齡犯罪者的犯罪預防和處遇的部分，你們有沒有進行過相關的研究以及目前提供哪些特殊的措施與規範？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為我們是主責犯罪偵查、起訴以及後續的刑罰執行，犯罪預防的部分可能要請教其他單位。"],["翁委員曉玲：請周署長。"],["黃次長世杰：關於委員所提出來的數據大概就是兩季，就是去年第四季跟今年第一季，那兩季的比較剛好這個數字是這樣，但可能要看更長期的資料來確定高齡化情形如何。當然因為我們國家進入高齡化社會，人口的比例本身就在變化，所以這個部分到底相關性如何，我們會再去看一下。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，這邊是不是可以請周署長？"],["黃次長世杰：處遇的部分我再請周署長說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：請周署長來說明一下，最近光是看到幾個嚴重的車禍都是高齡者所造成的，現在高齡犯罪的問題就是這些受刑人本身或許有失智或是其他一些疾病狀況，那麼矯正機關這裡有沒有一些特別的考量，給他們做一些特殊的處遇？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，針對法令的部分，我們已經修訂了所謂的高齡受刑人生活處遇指引；另外，我們針對每個監獄要求要落實所謂的老人工廠，對高齡的受刑人要給他適合的工廠；此外，關於合作的醫療院所，我們會儘量針對所謂的老年門診部分來加強，當然這個還要跟衛福部再做溝通、協調，這方面我們也會來加強辦理。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在因為學者有建議，我們政府是不是應該要參考少年事件處理法的法規來訂定一個高齡的專法，有人有這樣的建議。現在臺灣已經步入所謂超高齡社會，未來高齡犯罪的情況可能會越來越嚴重、越來越多，我認為法務部、矯正署等等其實都應該要提早做一些準備，那麼現在看起來你們也只是在個案的部分、自己監所內部做一些特別的處理，但是就未來整體制度來講，可能跟衛福部，或是在執行方面，就法務部矯正署這裡，應該可以更積極的參考其他國家的法制，提出更好的相關法規範、好的管理規則。"],["周署長輝煌：是，跟委員報告，對於高齡受刑人，我民國96年剛好有機會奉派去考察日本的監所、刑務所，其實他們對於高齡受刑人，而且有三高的這些慢性疾病者，他們是有編制營養師的，他每天的卡路里、相關的，他們在96年就有營養師，我非常羨慕。當然我們現在監所沒有營養師，將來我們可能面臨高齡的挑戰，將來可能營養師是有必要，以減輕他……等於是讓這些慢性病者，減少他的外醫，營養師不是給他吃好，而是對他身體有益的一些調配。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我了解，周署長您民國96年時候去參考、去看過日本的制度。"],["周署長輝煌：是，他們已經有營養師了。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為現在大概又過了將近20年，這十幾年可能日本那裡又有一些變化，甚至他們可能更精進他們照顧高齡受刑人的相關制度，所以有機會的話，可以再去看看他們那裡實際的作法。","剛剛周署長講到引進營養師，這個概念很好，但是我們其實現在連戒護人力比都是明顯的不足，不管是社福人力還有教化人力等等，必須要全面去檢討相關人力運用的問題，我們這邊也希望周署長能夠加把勁，在矯正人力的遞補上面，能夠提出一個更好的方案，謝謝。"],["周署長輝煌：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。因為今天司法院派程廳長，他是屬於受刑人的權利救濟的部分，所以翁委員所提到的資料的部分，也請司法院一併來做提供。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，不在。","接下來請王鴻薇委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91aabf0c47d60d295b9b85017248ed72d8dda6ae3643212cc5f615262e27cf63ed25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:27:31 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請郭部長"},{"start":20.253,"end":30.023,"text":"委員好部長好辛苦了這個本席請教一下部長您在5月26號還有6月21號都有針對這個關稅的問題對等關稅問題有接受媒體的訪問然後在5月26號的時候你有提到說這個關稅在談判進行當中不便對外透露細節"},{"start":41.514,"end":55.589,"text":"但已經清楚了掌握美國到底要什麼國人可以放心台灣有把握拿到較好的關稅條件這是5月26號但是在6月21號呢您的說法好像有一點改變你說呢這個"},{"start":57.332,"end":72.053,"text":"目前重要的變數在於美國能否在實現之前跟日本、韓國、越南、歐盟等完成談判若有結果其他國就會比較好談那想請問一下部長這兩個時間點上面有什麼樣的變化嗎"},{"start":73.62,"end":99.403,"text":"報告委員我確實這樣子啦就是說美國他在談判這個關稅的時候他有分三個ROM就是綠色的黃色跟紅色的ROM他這次大概主要在談的都還是靠近在綠色的ROM比如說對美國比較友好的這些所以我們是在綠區就對了我們當然是18個國家都在綠區啦但是這個綠區的部分因為他在談判的過程每一個國家不會一樣"},{"start":100.754,"end":105.063,"text":"所以我們當然啦就是說會觀察嘛我後來在講的這個就是說韓國日本跟這個歐盟"},{"start":110.017,"end":128.423,"text":"我們在看這都是大的國家那他一定要美國一定要跟這些人談好嘛那這些談好這個基準他談好以後才會跟我們這些來談那我們剛開始的時候我們在談我們跟他談完了以後我們發現我們應該跟美國之間的差異並沒有那麼多"},{"start":133.308,"end":156.076,"text":"就是美國要我們的然後我們這些沒有參加所以我在5月26號的時候曾經這麼講我們掌握了非常多美國的這個希望跟我們我們可能大部分都是在這種一些非關稅貿易障礙的部分比較多啦就關稅的部分我們其實沒有那麼大的這個差異所以那時候你談完你覺得是有信心的"},{"start":156.636,"end":173.322,"text":"可以拿到比較好的條件我們談判的小組回來跟我們大家分享大概狀況是這樣經濟部是負責搜尋這一些市場資訊我們發現事實上到六月的時候美國在談的時候它自己的進度"},{"start":174.636,"end":193.105,"text":"一直在delay而且我們發現說跟我們這個當初的這個simulation裡面有一點點小的這個差異這個小的差異是在於美國他們現在談判的過程裡面那個不確定性增加了不確定性增加譬如說這個"},{"start":195.649,"end":209.221,"text":"美國對英國的這個車的關稅雖然調降回來10%但是他有限量他是限量他一定要在10萬輛規模以下才享有這些優惠的稅率那這個這個關稅"},{"start":211.923,"end":236.636,"text":"只限美國跟英國兩個國家所以這個對我們在談判後面要談判的就有很多的空間可以來進行我們在發現說它可能不是一體適用不是全世界對美國來談判是多方的談判 沒有它可以談到彼此對等至於對等的定義是什麼我們當然要觀察"},{"start":237.256,"end":257.887,"text":"他對日本對韓國因為這兩個國家對台灣來講是非常非常的重要因為我們有很多的這個在這個工業上面特別是輕工業資訊工業上面我們也是高度重疊半導體所以我們不能夠說我們今天談下來的關稅遇到比較這個不利的這個狀況"},{"start":259.076,"end":287.271,"text":"那因為我們在過去碰到這個關稅的問題的時候總統總統也好行政院院長也好我們都一起去到各個這個產業去座談我們也充分的了解業者的這個期許啦業者希望我們在談判的那一組人能夠談下一個不歧視的關稅也就是說那部長那現在你的意思是說像日本韓國歐盟他們先談好之後我們才有辦法談嗎"},{"start":288.732,"end":307.746,"text":"不是在他們談的條件的這個限制之下我們再來談嗎我們當然這個談不是我們主動美國說我們跟美國說我當時要說就可以了可是因為60天的緩衝起因快結束了對快結束了我們應該是會在因為我們是比較穩定對美國來講說台灣是比較穩定比較穩定的一個國家"},{"start":312.449,"end":329.418,"text":"所以對於要跟台灣談他認為說應該是比較容易談的一個部分那他美國對日本跟韓國因為日本因為他有很大的利益在汽車上面韓國也很大的這個利益在汽車跟造船上面"},{"start":330.118,"end":357.637,"text":"這兩個issue跟台灣都沒有關係所以他會先談完那其實我們台灣的優勢是在於我們AI的晶片跟我們AI的server那另外一個就是我們的傳統產業所以我們關心的是傳統產業的部分那傳統產業大概是競爭的啦所以我再請教一下部長就是說那你6月21號你的專訪我是覺得說奇怪那是不是沒有像你在5月底的時候談得這麼有信心呢"},{"start":358.337,"end":382.687,"text":"我們當然是到目前為止談下來我跟委員報告因為這還沒有談完嘛所以我們應該是有信心不至於談出一個對日本或者韓國更差的這個關稅這個我們應該是具有高度信心好 OK那我先為了沒有時間到我再做一個問題我請這個交通部的次長好不好林次長"},{"start":389.787,"end":403.907,"text":"委員好來 市長我簡短問齁這個你們是2030年齁客運車輛電動化預計要達到這個市區公車全面電動化的目標是不是是那我剛有聽到委員講說這個目標有可能會跳票是不是"},{"start":404.561,"end":419.994,"text":"沒有目前還是照這方向來走因為去年2024我們是有達標那你說如果到2030年接下來的五年都要達標的話每年大概市區的這個電動公車大概要貸還多少"},{"start":422.564,"end":446.959,"text":"現在一萬一千台市區公共車嘛那我剛剛報告裡面也有我們現在已經有三三三二八八三千兩百多輛設計跟已經使用中了所以還有七千輛七年一兩千輛每年所以市長是認為說還是在二零三零年之前市區的公車這個是我們的目標那我再問一下因為後面會越來越快那可是我們的這一個呢國道的這一個電動大客車勒"},{"start":450.057,"end":476.031,"text":"現在我們在國道上面有電動大客車嗎同步在開發但是它的規格跟使用性能會不一樣我們現在在國道上面有電動大客車在跑嗎目前沒有 只有公路客運有一些我認真說沒有啊我問的資料應該是沒有啊所以現在在國道上面都還沒有電動大客車在跑就對了那你們預計是哪時候電動大客車會在國道上面跑"},{"start":477.385,"end":501.201,"text":"這個我請市長回應好跟委員報告一下確實就是說國道客運使用的續航力跟這個相關的性能要求比較高那目前相關的業者在做開發當中那目前大概有些這個車型出來那目前還在做性能上面的這個調校我們也很期待希望說在今年年底或明年初能夠有符合國道客運的這個車子能夠出來"},{"start":501.601,"end":518.878,"text":"今年底或明年初因為有業者在抱怨就是說他已經跟這一個電動車公司已經簽好約那個有這個路線可以跑那結果因為呢這個電動大哥車他做不出來結果他的路線也被取消掉了就有這種情況"},{"start":520.571,"end":528.095,"text":"這個部分據我所了解的一個部分的話這個當然牽扯到他這個業者當時拿到這個案這個路線那對審議會我想也是公務局承諾的這個條件那後面他跟相關的這個電動大客車業者去訂定相關這個採購車輛基本上也有一個這個合約啦那我想說有一些這個業者"},{"start":546.145,"end":573.924,"text":"兩方相關交車這個正義的這個部分的話我們是比較建議可能要循他們的合約來做處理司契約是歸司契約那大概就是按照這個法律途徑在講那我是認為說既然這個電動客車大客車是這個部裡面的這一個計畫不論是市區公車或是說這一個我們國道上面的這個電動大客車我們都有補助嘛對不對都有補助那我是希望說相關的配套措施尤其在國道"},{"start":574.864,"end":586.018,"text":"客運的這個相關措施你要做好,不然你車子第一個你現在還沒辦法上路,第二個就是說它的這些充電裝之類的配套措施好像也都還沒有完成啊"},{"start":588.386,"end":609.778,"text":"除了車輛本身的一個相關性能的一個要求之外那另外有關於在廠站端這些相關充電設施的部分我們對於這個國道客運或是未來一般公路客運的協助會跟現在市區客運一樣相關的廠站端這些相關的充電裝還包括這個充電這個智慧管理平台的這個部分我們公路局都會來做協助"},{"start":611.14,"end":618.454,"text":"因為這個是部裡面的這個計畫啦我是希望說就好好監督齁能夠讓他順利的能夠上路啦好 謝謝社長好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時27分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。本席請教一下部長，您在5月26號，還有6月21號都有針對對等關稅的問題接受媒體的訪問，然後在5月26號的時候你有提到關稅在談判進行當中，不便對外透露細節，但已經清楚掌握美國到底要什麼，國人可以放心，臺灣有把握拿到較好的關稅條件，這是5月26號，但是在6月21號，您的說法好像有一點改變，你說目前重要的變數在於美國能否在時限之前與日本、韓國、越南、歐盟等完成談判，若有結果，其他國就會比較好談。請問一下部長，這兩個時間點上面有什麼樣的變化嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，確實是這樣，就是說美國在談判關稅的時候，有分三個zone，就是綠色、黃色及紅色的zone，這次大概主要談的都還是靠近在綠色的zone，也就是對美國比較友好的這些國家。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們是在綠區就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是，18個國家都在綠區，但是綠區的部分，因為在談判的過程中每一個國家不會一樣，所以我們當然會觀察，我後來在講的就是說韓國、日本跟歐盟，我們在看這都是大的國家，美國一定要跟這些能夠談好，這個基準談好以後，才會跟我們來談，剛開始的時候我們在談，跟他談完了以後，我們發現我們應該跟美國之間的差異並沒有那麼大，就是說美國要我們……然後我們之間沒有差異那麼大，所以我在5月26號的時候曾經這麼講，我們掌握了非常多美國希望跟我們……我們可能大部分都是在這種非關稅貿易障礙的部分比較多，關稅的部分我們其實沒有那麼大的差異，但是……"],["李委員坤城：所以那時候你談完你覺得是有信心可以拿到比較好的條件？"],["郭部長智輝：我們談判的小組回來跟我們大家分享，大概狀況是這樣，經濟部是負責搜尋市場資訊，我們發現事實上到6月時，美國在談的時候它自己的進度一直在delay，而且我們發現跟我們當初的simulation有一點點小的差異，這個小的差異是在於美國現在的談判過程裡面不確定性增加了，譬如說美國對英國的車的關稅雖然調降回來10%，但是有限量，限量一定要在10萬輛規模以下才享有優惠稅率，這個關稅又只限美國跟英國兩個國家，所以這對於我們後面要談判的就有很多空間可以來進行，我們發現它可能不是一體適用，不是全世界對美國來談判，是多方的談判，沒有，它可以談到彼此對等。至於對等的定義是什麼，我們當然要觀察，它對日本、對韓國，這兩個國家對臺灣來講是非常、非常重要，因為在工業方面，特別是在輕工業、資訊工業上面，我們是高度重疊，包括半導體。所以我們不能夠說我們今天談下來的關稅遇到比較不利的狀況，因為過去碰到關稅問題的時候，總統也好、行政院院長也好，我們都一起到各個產業去座談，也充分地了解業者的期許，業者希望我們在談判的那一組人能夠談下一個不歧視的關稅，也就是說……"],["李委員坤城：部長，現在你的意思是說像日本、韓國、歐盟他們先談好之後，我們才有辦法談嗎？或是在他們談的條件的限制之下，我們再來談嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然這個談不是我們主動，我們要跟美國說我什麼時候要談，不能這樣。"],["李委員坤城：可是因為60天的緩衝期已經快結束了。"],["郭部長智輝：對，快結束了，因為我們是比較穩定，對美國來講，臺灣是比較穩定的一個國家，所以對於要跟臺灣談，它認為應該是比較容易談的部分，而美國對日本跟韓國，日本有很大的利益在汽車上面，韓國也有很大的利益在汽車跟造船上面，這兩個issue跟臺灣都沒有關係，所以它會先談完，其實我們臺灣的優勢是在於AI的晶片以及AI的server，另外就是我們的傳統產業，所以我們關心的是傳統產業的部分，而傳統產業大概是競爭的。"],["李委員坤城：我知道。我再請教一下部長，在6月21號你的專訪，我就覺得說奇怪，是不是沒有像你在5月底的時候談得這麼有信心呢？"],["郭部長智輝：到目前為止談下來，我跟委員報告，因為這還沒有談完，我們應該是有信心不至於談出一個比日本或韓國更差的關稅，這個我們應該是具有高度信心。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK。因為我的時間到了，我最後再問一題，我請交通部的次長，好不好？"],["主席：林次長。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長，我簡短問，你們在2030年客運車輛電動化的部分預計要達到市區公車全面電動化的目標，是不是？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["李委員坤城：我剛才有聽到委員講說這個目標有可能會跳票，是不是？"],["林次長國顯：沒有，目前還是照這個方向來走，因為去年2024年我們是有達標，今年還需要努力。"],["李委員坤城：如果到2030年，也就是接下來的5年都要達標的話，每一年市區的電動公車大概要汰換多少？"],["林次長國顯：現在1萬1,000台市區公車，我剛剛報告裡面有提到，現在已經有3,288、三千兩百多輛，是設計跟已經使用中的，所以還有7,000輛7年，也就是每一年1、2,000輛。"],["李委員坤城：所以次長是認為在2030年之前市區的公車還是……"],["林次長國顯：這是我們的目標，因為後面會越來越快。"],["李委員坤城：會越來越快，可是有關國道的電動大客車呢？現在在國道上面有電動大客車嗎？"],["林次長國顯：同步在開發，但是規格跟使用性會不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：現在在國道上面有電動大客車在跑嗎？"],["林次長國顯：目前沒有，只有公路客運有一些。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我問的資料應該是沒有，所以現在在國道上面都還沒有電動大客車在跑就對了？"],["林次長國顯：對。"],["李委員坤城：你們預計什麼時候電動大客車會在國道上面跑？"],["林次長國顯：這個部分我請司長回應。"],["李委員坤城：好。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，確實國道客運使用的續航力跟相關的性能要求比較高，目前相關業者在做開發當中，大概有一些車型出來，還在做性能上面的調校，我們也很期待，希望在今年年底或明年初能夠有符合國道客運的車子出來。"],["李委員坤城：今年底或明年初？"],["林司長福山：我們目標是希望今年底或明年初。"],["李委員坤城：因為有業者在抱怨，就是它跟電動車公司已經簽好約，有這個路線可以跑，結果因為電動大客車做不出來，它的路線也被取消掉了，是不是有這種情況？"],["林司長福山：這個部分據我所了解，當然牽涉到這個業者當時拿到這個路線，對審議會也是公路局承諾的條件，後面它跟電動大客車業者訂定相關採購車輛，基本上也有一個合約，我想有關業者兩方相關交車爭議的部分，我們是比較建議可能要循他們的合約來做處理。"],["李委員坤城：私契約是歸私契約，就是按照法律途徑來處理，我是認為既然電動大客車是部裡面的計畫，不論是市區公車或是國道上面的電動大客車，我們都有補助嘛，對不對？"],["林司長福山：對。"],["李委員坤城：都有補助，所以我是希望相關的配套措施，尤其在國道客運的相關措施你要做好，不然，第一個，現在這些車子還沒辦法上路，第二個就是相關充電樁之類的配套措施好像也都還沒有完成啊。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，除了車輛本身相關性能的要求之外，另外有關於在場站端相關充電設施的部分，我們對於國道客運或是未來一般公路客運的協助會跟現在市區客運一樣，有關場站端相關的充電樁，包括充電智慧管理平臺的部分，我們公路局都會來做協助。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為這是部裡面的計畫，我是希望好好監督，能夠讓他們順利上路，謝謝次長。"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請蔡易餘委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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但更早更好啦齁因為我相信等很久了啦齁包括他們也一直在到底房屋要不要修繕阿這也要跟市政府去旁邊啦齁這兩邊來合作這樣啦阿我是有拜託市長 要完全支持啦"},{"start":95.692,"end":118.68,"text":"對 因為部長是主辦單位啦你主要是你經濟部是主辦的單位啦但市府是受你委託的單位所以可能主辦單位的這個再多催 多加把勁啦好不好讓整件事情快一點因為鄉親真的等很久了而且坦白講這也是當時從蔡總統到賴總統到陳市長到歷任的部長我們的共同承諾啦"},{"start":119.42,"end":131.386,"text":"那鄉親們也相信我們的承諾 那也希望盡快給他們能夠搬遷到更適合的地點 好不好好 那就照這樣的目標 好 謝謝部長 謝謝那我問一下林次長好不好 交通部林次長林次長好 部長請回座 謝謝"},{"start":137.2,"end":152.094,"text":"市長先請教今天其實很多的關心到這個問題我先請教一下電動公車這前一陣子才剛發生的台北市的電動公車起火那運安會認為這是一個重大事故令到調查目前調查的結果是怎樣"},{"start":154.284,"end":176.613,"text":"報告委員還在調查中還沒有具體的那在還沒有調查中的時候會不會影響到其他的電動公車的整體的運作報告部長報告委員我們當天應該市政府已經把該路線20條同行車都停止運作然後做全面檢查那另外市府裡面有800多輛也全面一併檢查目前好像有一輛有狀況的樣子"},{"start":178.354,"end":193.819,"text":"那所以其他還是繼續全國的都要檢查那其他的還是繼續在行駛當中其他不是這一行車的繼續運作但是因為有這樣的事件所以應該各家公司都會注意到它的這個電池系統有沒有異常"},{"start":194.179,"end":218.419,"text":"所以這一家業者的狀況因為我看了一下這一家製造商五年內有發生三次自燃的事件那顯然所以這一家的廠商的會特別去比較高度的去因為畢竟如果又再次發生的話這個坦白講這也蠻危險的有這樣的狀況就要釐清它到底是因為製造的問題還是維護保養的問題預定什麼時候這個調查報告會出來"},{"start":222.285,"end":244.955,"text":"包委員他還沒公佈時間 運安會還沒有公佈運安會沒有公佈 那預定多久 次長你認為像這樣的要多久要查出他的事實狀況可能因為差異蠻大的 因為你像航空他通常要一年那海運軌道就不一定 那公路的話他目前還沒有沒有一個很"},{"start":245.731,"end":271.713,"text":"不過這個也要加快啦因為如果你沒有辦法這個查明它的真相為什麼自然的真相的話大家都會擔憂嘛我們基本上就是同步啦一方面調查原因因為每個個案有它的形成原因那第二個其他同行車跟電動車要注意的是電池的管理跟維護保養充電的過程我知道但是如果連調查這樣的事故要很長的時間的話這個"},{"start":273.915,"end":282.212,"text":"市長這個交通部算是整個您也算是第三把交椅了那這個是一個很重要的"},{"start":283.743,"end":308.052,"text":"這應該給一個時間出來吧我們跟院安會來詢問一下市長多久能夠出來抱歉我沒有辦法替院安會回應盡快啦好不好我覺得這件事情不能拖延這會影響到人民的安全跟信心如果只是單一的廠商的單一的某個零件上出了問題那我們找到我們當然可以盡快做處理如果不是這件鱷魚花那恐怕會造成大家更大的擔憂這個我覺得盡快"},{"start":309.733,"end":330.159,"text":"那現在搭這些電動公車的人的話如果我們還沒罵查明的話那其實是是有風險的是有風險的所以我覺得還是要盡快來查明現有的幾個江山部有補助的大概五家有六款車型包括幾個國內的一些業者那當然剛才提到我希望"},{"start":330.979,"end":355.085,"text":"儘快去查明啦 如果是單一業者本身他的設備有些問題那當然這一個業者部分要求要去改善那同時以人命安全為最優先就要去暫時先去停止暫時要改善完畢才能夠使用啦那如果其他的也都有類似的問題的話那恐怕要整體做一些處理沒錯 確實如此我相信這幾家廠商看到這案例應該也會回頭看他們的系統有沒有相類似的問題"},{"start":355.945,"end":365.142,"text":"那第二個呢在營運過程中發生的事件跟電池管理的問題可能都要回饋到設計跟製造商去調整"},{"start":366.662,"end":393.002,"text":"對 交通政策這個人命是最關鍵的如果你連公車上如果沒辦法給大家確保安全的話那這個是一個很嚴肅的問題啦更何況公車裡面很多可能都是相對都是一些比較老人小孩甚至弱勢者去使用的機率更高那更風險更是高所以我這一塊是請次長要加速要求今天我沒有逼你一定時間出來但是一定要快啦 好不好"},{"start":393.562,"end":414.035,"text":"人命的安全優先如果再發生這樣的狀況甚至造成人命的傷亡的話這恐怕是大家都承擔不起的那我接下來想要問的是那到底我們現在所要挑戰的這些的電動巴士的我們做好的準備現在目前預定在2030年要完成全面的電動化這個看起來是沒辦法順利完成了嗎"},{"start":414.695,"end":437.19,"text":"包委員我們希望它後面越來越快啦那去年2024我們有達標今年需要再努力那照這樣的目標還是沒有改變嗎就是2030年完成目標還是一樣我們希望一萬一千台左右要全面電動我個人其實是支持這樣政策的因為就電動的話一方面我們當然希望對於這個運具能夠透過運具的減少"},{"start":440.752,"end":455.127,"text":"減少空污的影響 同時間也能夠這個我是支持 特別是在空污嚴重的地方 像我的選區高雄 我就非常支持應該要加速推動我都希望當我們的這個製造業必須要因為生產而可能要產生一些"},{"start":455.888,"end":480.967,"text":"碳排甚至產生一些污染的同時的時候那至少在我們的大眾運輸在我們的運具上多盡量減少用碳排的如果能夠公車也用電動公車機車也用電動機車汽車也用我認為都是歡迎因為它只要稍微降一點點這個量的話都有機會讓我們的空污改善也許那個安全值就在那個接近的謝偉這也是為什麼我們報院也同意的為了大概用640億左右"},{"start":482.648,"end":501.516,"text":"所以後續上還是希望還是希望次長跟部裡面加速推動啦特別是在這些的本身製造業工業城市空污嚴重地區要加速來推動因為往往它每降一些移動污染源降一些其實對於整個空氣的整體的品質就也許就是那關鍵點"},{"start":502.456,"end":520.729,"text":"紅害變成這個菊井就好很多菊井變成黃色就好很多我認為那個都好很多但是如果在本身空汙相對良好的空氣相對良好的地方的話這個當然是很好的指標但是那個效益性就更不一樣了好不好這個還是希望我們會跟高雄市政府積極來合作"},{"start":523.058,"end":551.856,"text":"所以照這樣來看的話這會全面來推動整個順利在還是要趕2030年完成這樣的目標這個目標不變那因為實際到了我最後也提一個其實像韓國的首尾已經把他的無人巴士也已經納入到營運了除了智慧化電動化以外另外無人的部分我也希望包括我們的經濟部包括我們的交通部包括國發會無人載具大概都是現在未來的一個趨勢包括智慧化的這些的那"},{"start":552.376,"end":571.241,"text":"我還是希望像過去以來曾經旗津交通部下也有觀光署旗津過去我們講過很多的無人載具無碳島的想法我也希望未來旗津很簡單就是一個長條狀的所以它在海岸邊很有機會順利的能夠推動比如說我們用一個無人車的一個試辦的一個計畫"},{"start":573.542,"end":592.93,"text":"那很漂亮啦 你坐了渡輪到那邊之後你可以坐上那個無人車也許從旗津走到中州再回到這邊那也有看到一面過去就是非常漂亮的海景就有點像瀨戶連海這樣子 或者像其他的所有的一些港灣港口城市一樣它非常漂亮的一些港景 同時間又能夠滴炭"},{"start":594.791,"end":618.725,"text":"同時又能夠用智慧化而且它又不會跟人行或者跟車輛有所交錯我希望這個包括交通部包括國發會這個整體思考一下來齊心來推動這樣的計畫好不好請市長各位評論看看是 謝謝委員那個基本上我們電動車的計畫有很大的一個目標也是希望帶動智慧化跟自駕車的"},{"start":619.966,"end":635.178,"text":"的發展所以這個部分我們希望在未來六七年能夠逐漸的智慧化跟自動化來前進第二個您提到其實這個地方我們跟市政府再來研究看看因為事辦計劃一般要由地方或是主辦方來提"},{"start":635.658,"end":651.767,"text":"那個部長一個月先給我一份說明好不好你們跟市府溝通的結果我希望來試辦因為這個地點它其實你看到這個非常漂亮長條狀的而且它不會跟車輛跟其他交錯道那如果我們辦法把這個無人車跟整個"},{"start":654.228,"end":673.594,"text":"電動車的整個結合那在這邊做一些示範計畫的話效果也非常的好啦那同時間也可以減少人力我們現在找司機越來越困難了嘛那如果幫他來示範而且迄今每年觀光人口就有六七百萬這幾年各地啦包括韓國也很喜歡來到這個地方其他國家喜歡來這邊那我們機會展現出這樣的話會達到很好的效果"},{"start":674.675,"end":687.404,"text":"這目標不錯 不管車的發展我們得跟經濟部跟業者討論看看有沒有業者想要在這邊示範請次長再努力跟交通部 經濟部 國防再努力看看一個月的先給我一份報告好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時15分）謝謝召委，我先請一下郭部長，然後再請林次長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我先請教一個問題，大林蒲遷村案謝謝部長積極在推動，但是當地的鄉親們也很關心，因為從2018年到現在已經7年了，其實也拖了相當長的時間，我只想要問一下，目前初步規劃是2027年實質啟動遷村，是這樣的方向嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：上個禮拜我有去跟陳市長討論這個問題，我們希望儘量能夠越快越好，所以啟動遷村到底是怎麼樣，因為我們先讓有意願的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：當時有講到年底……"],["郭部長智輝：今年我們就讓有意願的先來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今年年底前會啟動登記，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為全部程序都在走了，如果照這樣的目標，2027年可以啟動實質遷村？"],["郭部長智輝：我們要越快越好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：希望再更提前。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是我還是希望時間上就今年年底來登記，完成後2027年遷村，當然更早更好，因為鄉親已經等很久了，包括他們也一直在考慮到底房屋要不要修繕……"],["郭部長智輝：這個也要跟市政府那邊討論，然後兩邊來合作，我是有拜託過市長，而他是支持的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為部長是主辦單位，經濟部是主辦的單位，當然市府是受你委託的單位，所以可能主辦單位要再多催一下、再多加把勁，讓整件事情快一點，因為鄉親真的等很久了，而且坦白講，這也是當時從蔡總統到賴總統、到陳市長、到歷任的部長，我們的共同承諾，鄉親們也相信我們的承諾，也希望能夠儘快讓他們搬遷到更適合的地點，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那就照這樣的目標，部長請回座，謝謝部長。","接著我問一下交通部林次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請教次長，今天其實很多委員有關心到這個問題，我先請教一下電動公車，前一陣子才剛發生臺北市的電動公車起火，運安會認為這是一個重大事故所以立案調查，目前調查的結果是怎樣？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，還在調查中，還沒有具體的結果。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在還沒有調查結果前，會不會影響到其他的電動公車整體的運作？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，當天市政府應該已經把該路線20輛同型車都停止運作，然後做全面檢查。另外，市府裡面有八百多輛，也全面一併檢查，目前好像有一輛有狀況的樣子，所以全部都要檢查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其他都還是繼續行駛當中？"],["林次長國顯：其他不是這一型車的就繼續運作，但是因為有這樣的事件，所以各家公司應該都會注意到它的電池系統有沒有異常。"],["賴委員瑞隆：關於這一家業者的狀況，因為我看了一下這一家製造商，5年內有發生3次自燃的事件，所以這一家廠商應特別、比較高度去注意，畢竟如果又再次發生的話，坦白講也滿危險的。"],["林次長國顯：是，有這樣的狀況就要釐清到底是製造的問題還是維護保養的問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定什麼時候調查報告會出來？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，運安會還沒公布時間。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定要多久時間？次長，你認為像這樣要多久時間查出它的事實狀況？"],["林次長國顯：因為差異滿大的，因為像航空通常要一年，海運、軌道就不一定，公路的話目前還沒有一個很……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不過這個也要加快，因為如果你沒有辦法查明它為什麼自燃的真相的話，大家都會擔憂嘛！"],["林次長國顯：了解。報告委員，我們基本上就是同步，一方面調查原因，因為每個個案有它形成的原因。第二個，其他同型車及電動車要注意的是電池的管理及維護保養，充電的過程……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我知道，但是如果連調查這樣的事故都要很長時間的話，次長，交通部你也算是第三把交椅，這個很重要，應該給一個時間出來吧！不能無止盡……"],["林次長國顯：好，我們跟運安會詢問一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：多久？次長，多久能夠出來？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我沒有辦法替運安會回應。"],["賴委員瑞隆：儘快啦，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得這件事情不能拖，因為這會影響到人民的安全跟信心。"],["林次長國顯：我們也希望儘快了解原因。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果只是單一廠商的某個單一零件上出了問題，我們找到當然可以儘快做處理，如果不是只有這間廠商的話，恐怕會造成大家更大的擔憂。"],["林次長國顯：了解，確實如此。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個我覺得要儘快，如果我們還沒辦法查明的話，對於現在這些搭電動公車的人其實是有風險的。"],["林次長國顯：了解，確實。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我覺得還是要儘快來查明。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現行交通部補助的大概有5家、6款車型，包括幾個國內業者，剛才也提到，我希望儘快去查明，如果是單一業者本身的設備有些問題，當然這個業者的部分要去要求改善，同時以人民安全為最優先，要暫時先停止……等改善完畢才能夠使用，如果其他的也都有類似問題的話，恐怕要整體做一些處理。"],["林次長國顯：沒錯，確實如此。我相信這幾家廠商看到這個案例應該也會回頭看他們的系統有沒有相類似的問題。第二個，在營運過程中發生的事件及電池管理的問題可能都要回饋到設計跟製造商去調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：交通政策人命是最關鍵的，公車上如果沒辦法確保安全的話，這是一個很嚴肅的問題，更何況公車裡面相對的很多可能都是老人、小孩，甚至弱勢者去使用的機率更高……"],["林次長國顯：對，這個需要重視……"],["賴委員瑞隆：風險更是高，所以這塊還是請次長要加速要求。"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今天我沒有逼你時間一定要出來，但是一定要快，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：人命的安全優先，如果再發生這樣的狀況，甚至造成人命傷亡的話，這恐怕是大家都承擔不起的。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我接下來想要問的是，到底我們現在所要挑戰的這些電動巴士是否做好準備，目前預定在2030年要完成全面電動化，這個看起來是沒辦法順利完成了嗎？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我們希望後面越來越快，去年（2024）我們有達標，今年需要再努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：照這樣的目標還是沒有改變嗎？就是2030年完成？"],["林次長國顯：目標還是一樣，2030年一萬一千臺左右要全面電動化。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我個人其實支持這樣的政策，因為就電動的話，一方面我們當然希望能夠透過運具來減少空污的影響，同時間也能夠……這個我是支持，特別是在空污嚴重地區，像我的選區高雄，我就非常支持應該要加速推動，當製造業必須因為要生產而可能會產生一些碳排，甚至產生一些污染的同時，我都希望至少在大眾運輸、在運具上都儘量減少用碳排的，如果公車也能夠用電動公車，機車也用電動機車，汽車也用……我都是歡迎，因為只要稍微降一點點量的話，都有機會讓空污改善，也許安全值就再接近……"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員，這也是為什麼我們報院，院裡也同意，未來大概用640億左右……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以後續還是希望次長跟部裡面加速推動，特別是在這些製造業本身或工業城市空污嚴重地區要加速來推動，因為往往移動污染源降一些，其實對於空氣的整體品質也許就在關鍵點，紅害變成橘警就好很多，橘警變成黃色就好很多，我認為那個都好很多，但是如果在本身空氣相對良好的地方的話，這個當然是很好的指標，但是效益性就更不一樣了，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還是希望次長再……"],["林次長國顯：好，我們會跟高雄市政府積極來合作。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以照這樣來看的話，這會全面來推動，還是要趕2030年完成這樣的目標。"],["林次長國顯：對，這個目標不變。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為時間也到了，我最後也提一個，其實像韓國首爾已經把無人巴士納入營運，除了智慧化、電動化以外，另外無人的部分，我也希望包括經濟部、交通部及國發會，無人載具大概都是未來的趨勢，包括智慧化等等，交通部轄下也有觀光署，旗津過去我們講過很多無人載具、無碳島的想法，旗津很簡單就是一個長條狀的，所以它在海岸邊很有機會能夠順利地推動，如果我們推動一個無人車試辦計畫，那很漂亮，你坐了渡輪到那邊之後，可以坐上無人車，也許從旗津走到中洲，再回到這邊，會看到一面望過去就是非常漂亮的海景，有點像瀨戶內海，或者像一些港口城市一樣，它有非常漂亮的港景，同時間能夠低碳，又能夠用智慧化，而且它又不會跟行人或車輛有所交錯。我希望交通部、國發會，整體思考一下，在旗津推動這樣的計畫，好不好？請次長可不可以評估看看？"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。基本上，我們電動車的計畫有很大的目標也是希望帶動智慧化跟自駕車的發展，所以這個部分我們希望在未來六、七年能夠逐漸的朝智慧化跟自動化來前進。第二個，你提到旗津這個地方，我們跟市政府再來研究看看，因為試辦計畫一般要由地方或是主辦方來提會比較好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：次長，一個月的時間給我一份說明，你們跟市府溝通的結果，我希望來試辦，因為這個地點你看非常漂亮、長條狀的，而且它不會跟車輛或行人交錯，如果有辦法把無人車跟電動車結合，在這邊做一些示範計畫的話，效果也會非常的好，同時間也可以減少人力，我們現在找司機越來越困難，如果有辦法來試辦，旗津每年觀光人口就有六、七百萬，這幾年各地包括韓國很喜歡來這個地方，其他國家也很喜歡來這邊，讓我們有機會展現出這樣的話會達到很好的效果。"],["林次長國顯：對，委員的目標不錯，不過，無人車的發展我們得跟經濟部與業者討論看看有沒有業者想要在這邊試辦。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請次長再與經濟部或國發會努力看看好不好？然後希望來推動。"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一個月的時間給我一份報告好不好？"],["林次長國顯：了解，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請李坤城委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們"},{"start":181.397,"end":185.74,"text":"透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%對於醫療的這個花費"},{"start":201.953,"end":220.107,"text":"減少了百分之十五到二十另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收三點五英鎊的對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收好所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回"},{"start":222.403,"end":247.365,"text":"我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草"},{"start":248.396,"end":257.829,"text":"他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級"},{"start":263.796,"end":282.893,"text":"這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對"},{"start":286.753,"end":307.582,"text":"報告委員我們監所對於剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利"},{"start":308.542,"end":325.24,"text":"他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利"},{"start":326.101,"end":342.949,"text":"我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁"},{"start":343.689,"end":357.923,"text":"但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪"},{"start":359.324,"end":382.037,"text":"好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁"},{"start":383.379,"end":411.512,"text":"那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員我上一次質詢有提出來來 下一頁好 這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的"},{"start":412.492,"end":439.797,"text":"糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房"},{"start":440.777,"end":470.263,"text":"我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的預鎖管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒"},{"start":470.703,"end":497.964,"text":"那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了"},{"start":499.105,"end":521.844,"text":"所以呢我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說"},{"start":523.005,"end":549.135,"text":"傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去"},{"start":550.4,"end":578.081,"text":"貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性"},{"start":579.611,"end":604.9,"text":"對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比"},{"start":606.001,"end":623.896,"text":"很懸殊 以至於我們這個實施風險評估的條件 畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問 也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍 音樂因為它的積分很多人在 是沒有辦法享有這些權利的這跟積分有關嗎我不懂"},{"start":629.441,"end":647.71,"text":"來沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說它因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況"},{"start":649.591,"end":667.728,"text":"那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個新型累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個建議新法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制"},{"start":671.511,"end":697.464,"text":"這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼我剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上"},{"start":698.204,"end":720.129,"text":"逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是ideal type它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化主義的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年"},{"start":721.329,"end":743.786,"text":"向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用 約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊"},{"start":745.127,"end":762.975,"text":"我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好 時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得"},{"start":763.975,"end":777.301,"text":"導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處方間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍"},{"start":782.703,"end":804.164,"text":"我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的"},{"start":805.583,"end":826.217,"text":"成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上"},{"start":831.264,"end":848.662,"text":"這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能"},{"start":849.122,"end":864.055,"text":"在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎"},{"start":868.699,"end":892.274,"text":"我們對於讀書會我們都積極來推動包括說 不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動 行為 書車也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話為什麼要有這些不同層級的這些"},{"start":894.316,"end":905.151,"text":"住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那"},{"start":906.912,"end":929.487,"text":"共同集會的機會有多少甚至也包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您"},{"start":931.588,"end":937.016,"text":"不可能啊好 沒關係 但是蘇哈就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策 謝謝也謝謝次長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":715,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時1分）好，謝謝主席，辛苦了！請次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["吳委員思瑤：還有署長。"],["主席：哪一個署長？"],["吳委員思瑤：周署長。"],["主席：請周署長。"],["吳委員思瑤：我要特別請衛福部的石崇良署長。"],["主席：請石署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，大家辛苦了！真的很謝謝主席這段時間透過排專案報告以及去現場考察讓我們對於獄政的改革有很多共同的共識，但是它畢竟是一條漫長的道路。我也是為了準備今天的質詢才特別去了解我們現行累進處遇的相關作法，它真的很不人性。石署長，您在這裡，社會處方箋是英國開始倡議的，透過導入社會處方箋，也就是透過藝術、透過運動，或是透過接觸綠色植物，乃至於透過閱讀，它有非常多的方式，像長照也好，或是心理健康受到衝擊而需要去緩解情緒的人，乃至於獄政體系都在使用，在臺灣你們現在的社會處方箋到底進展到哪裡了？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純只靠藥物，有很多是跟生活習慣相關，所以近年來各國都慢慢地在導入，在美國是生活型態醫學（life style medicine），在英國、加拿大是稱為社會處方箋，這些都是類似的，除了藥物之外，對於營養、運動、壓力的調節，甚至社會的連結（social connection），都要把它……"],["吳委員思瑤：你說的比較偏向physical health，如果是mental health這方面，我們對應於獄政革新這種再社會化的部分，你要不要分享一下？"],["石署長崇良：當然這個需要有資源的連結，社會處方雖然是在經過評估之後認為這個病人有什麼需要而朝哪個方向去做調整，可是它還需要其他的資源，這個不全是醫療資源。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒錯，它需要有視覺藝術、博物館群的協力，或者是表演藝術、兩廳院、音樂廳的協力。"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝署長，我還是期待，因為我已經有一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您，所以今天藉這個機會提出來。英國從2019年全方位的設立社會處方國家研究院開始，他們的目標在去年達標，就是2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用社會處方箋，而且經過學術的檢視跟政策的檢視，確實達到讓他們的門診量少了12%，對於醫療的花費減少了15%到20%。另外，很重要的是每投資1英鎊可以有3.5英鎊對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收，所以我們一定要持續的強化，我後續會比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論，好，您請回。"],["石署長崇良：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長一些反饋，我研究了你們的制度，就是不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利，還有受刑人管理級別的分類，他要累積分數，我覺得在他的住處也就是監所可以放放花草，讓他可以學畫畫，或是他可以擁有書籍、或是他可以擁有家屬的照片、或是他可以聽音樂，像這些東西，你們現在有分級，這些所謂的社會處方，對應於我剛剛說的，要去陶養一個人的心性，讓他再社會化，可是你們讓不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同的權利，反而造成很需要再處遇、再教化的人很難得到這些近便性，對於音樂、藝術、書籍都很難，對不對？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們監所對於剛剛委員講的，像一種植物療法也好、藝術療法也好，我們並不會限於他一定要累進處遇比如二級才能參加，我們反而是……"],["吳委員思瑤：那是你們額外辦的，但是如果是在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利，他擁有一本書，可以聽音樂，這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性，都因為他犯案的刑期不同，他被剝奪了他同樣近用藝術文化的權利。我了解你們的管理需求，對不起，次長在皺眉頭，沒關係，我來把我的論述講一下。首先，我還是要先說，空間跟人力是我們整個獄政改革的核心，我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革，但是關於空間改革，我要提醒你們，你們自己希望的是每個受刑人享有的空間不小於1坪，但是這是目標，依現行的法規是只有0.7坪，這是法規面，但是你們矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規則是希望能夠略大於1坪，可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到，OK，不要讓它只是遙遠的理想，如果有哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到，我們真的都不要放棄，我要再次提醒你們。","請看下一頁，在空間之外就是人力，我在這邊呈現出來的就是我上一次質詢提到的戒護人員、教化人員、心社人員跟職訓人員的人力比，而當中比較餘裕的是心社人員，我在上一次質詢時有提出來。下一頁，這是公共電視在去年的一個節目，就是在探討其實連獄所管理員的工作場域都非常糟糕，獄所的管理員是不是如同這個劇裡頭所呈現的，他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣，是這樣嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：應該不是這樣，他們的備勤室、休息的地方是有冷氣的，包括我們有一些地方，像風簷書齋裡面也有冷氣，包括煮咖啡的地方，在讓他們休閒用的地方會有，但是如果是在工廠或是舍房，我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇、電風扇，在那些地方沒有冷氣，但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以在這個戲劇當中所呈現獄所管理員的心聲並不完全符合事實就對了？"],["周署長輝煌：如果是舉辦相關的活動，在我們的教誨堂也都會開冷氣，因為人那麼多，你不開冷氣，可能有人會暈倒。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望真的是我多慮了，透過這個節目的呈現，確實讓我們也關心起獄所管理員本身工作的環境跟狀態。下一頁，但事實上他們的離退率越來越高，這個也不容否認，因為管教的壓力大，我們不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都高於世界各國，這個在上週我們已經處理過了，所以我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做處理。下一頁，回到剛剛的問題，我要就教於次長，累進制是我們現在做的，但是不管司改會也好，或你們今天自己的報告也好，都說我們希望能夠跟進世界，朝一個風險評估的善時制去推進，你剛剛也說傾向可能在未來廢止這個行刑累進處遇條例，你說未來，我不曉得是多久以後的未來。可是這當中，我非常同意剛剛我們召委的最後一個結論，其實隱藏在整個獄政管理思維背後是一個國家治理官，臺灣持續地用管理導向在面對我們的獄政。可是事實上，如果多往人權的方向去貼近一點，或者是教化的部分多貼近一點，它會有完全不同的思維。這就是我剛剛說的，因為我看到不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利，一級、二級、三級、四級，不同刑度的要累積多少分，才可以能夠享有親近書籍、聽音樂或放家屬的照片，我都覺得這個很不人性。對於一個人來講，我認為他的藝術親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇，協助他再社會化，我認為不應當因為他的刑度而去剝奪了這些權利，可是現在矯正署說國情不同、超額收容，還有受刑人和教化人員人數比很懸殊，以致於實施風險評估的條件未具。我都理解這是現在的困境，可是這是一個大哉問，也是我要挑戰的，為什麼他們對於親近書籍、音樂，會因為積分讓很多人沒有辦法享有這些權利？我不懂，也許是我理解錯誤，但是次長可以說明。"],["黃次長世杰：因為執行上有一些細節，我們都有圖書室，還有剛剛委員說的這些私人物品，這些東西是不是真的跟累進有那麼深的直接執行關係，可能我們會後再提供給委員實際執行狀況。因為我們今天的報告也有提到，關於行刑累進處遇條例，目前我們修法的進度是已經報送行政院，最近這幾天才報送，它會搭配新的監獄行刑法的修改，所謂傳統的累進制這樣的制度會做大幅的調整，但是也誠如委員剛剛非常正確的提出來，就是軟硬體設施，還有我們的人力，不只是數量的問題，還有專業管理制度可能都要做調整。我們為了維持安全及社會穩定，所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝，所以我們會在這個方向上逐步地往所謂的善時制，因為這其實都是ideal type，並不是具體的條文是怎麼樣，所以我們會往這個方向去做，我們當然也希望推動更貼近人權，更個別化處遇的這些相關作法。但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到的心社人力，我們也是在最近這幾年向人總爭取，也是從……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，是唯一超標、達標的。"],["黃次長世杰：從臨時人員改成約用、約僱，我們會一步一步，因為每一個階段都要被檢討成效是否有效益，我們才能夠再往前進，還有硬體改善的部分，我們也陸陸續續排定了很多計畫。因為很多舍房真的都是非常老舊，我們現在如果去做一些改善，可能效果也有限，不過我們會全力來推動，在國家財政允許的情況底下，逐年來做改善，以上，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，時間到了，也超過時間了。我是真的很懇切地分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得，導入藝術文化也許從閱讀、也許從音樂、也許從觀賞，當然在監獄裡頭不太可能直接去觀賞，所謂的社會處方箋，或是去美術館、去表演音樂廳，可是可以透過給他們聆聽音樂和閱讀書籍，我認為這都是很小的成本。我確實知道你們管理層面都希望管理方便，也擔心這當中會不會有危險因子，可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本，也會達到教化的效果，至少可以安定、comfort這些受刑人的情緒，這是非常重要、這是小小的成本，但是它會有你意想不到的效益，所以不要單純從管理方便的思維去思考。如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進處遇積分，對於可能刑度高一點的受刑人，他連拿到一本書要累積多少分？他要累積三、四百分以上，我不知道，還是我解讀錯誤？"],["黃次長世杰：這個執行的細節，我們再跟委員報告。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，因為我非常想要一起去理解，我希望我沒有理解錯誤，我想講的你們都非常清楚，有一些東西是小小的成本，也許會有不同的效益，包括我一直在催生的，可以讓貓狗的療癒功能，比較世界各國經驗，你們現在開始做犬訓班，很好，但是還有很多東西，這都有醫學的實證，好不好？我們後續如果有機會，只是比較可惜的是署長這段時間臨去秋波，每天都質詢你，但就這個部分，我可以私下再跟你多一點討論，跟你就教、請教，好嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：簡要地跟委員報告，我們對於讀書會會積極來推動，不可能是你要幾級才可以借書，我們的行動巡迴書車也都是鼓勵大家來借，這個有幫助囚情穩定，所以這個部分我們都會……"],["吳委員思瑤：那如果都有的話，為什麼要有這些不同層級的規定，例如住所可放花草、書籍、家屬照片，為什麼要規定的這麼嚴格？你所說的是我有一個共同的集會，你可以來讀書；有一個共同的集會，你可以來聽音樂，共同集會的機會有多少？"],["周署長輝煌：甚至於包括他們擁有收音機也好、小型電視也好，一般可以到9點，他們都可以來聽的，他們有適度的自由。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們再討論，但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單，好不好？沒關係！我們繼續討論，也辛苦了，署長，我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢你。"],["主席：不可能。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係！我們私下就一個學者專家的身分來跟你討論政策，謝謝，也謝謝次長。"],["周署長輝煌：不敢當。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。你剛才說的三個月不可能，人家剩三個禮拜就要退休了。","其實這個是一個大問題，關於受刑人，我們一般在講都說除了應報以外，要給他矯正，在整個服刑期間要讓他的情緒穩定，比較有名的講法是讓他保有基本人權，是因為他要復歸到這個社會，復歸到這個社會是為了整體社會的絕大多數人，融合是好事，這是為了全體，所以這個是大哉問，很有名的問題，討論多久要看你站在什麼樣的角度。我們現在先休息5分鐘以後再接續詢答。","休息（11時17分）","繼續開會（11時25分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來我們要請最美麗的翁曉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},{"id":"162776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91a55a36359607b0955b85017248ed72d8dda6ae3643212cc5f103f035c999116f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:04:54 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比例已經超過20那我們要保障像我們這樣包括你也一樣不曉得你的年齡我的年齡誰比較大看起來你是比我年輕多了你看起來像我弟弟一樣是我是你弟弟不是不是我說是比例講到年輕你就笑起來了真的很年輕但是我們都會遇到高齡化開車的問題"},{"start":206.181,"end":215.964,"text":"那我到車輛測試中心的時候我們把這個問題拿出來他也指點了我們幾個方向所以這邊我要請我們產業技術師的郭師長還有產業發展史我們的邱師長"},{"start":226.167,"end":233.094,"text":"還有我們國家發展委員會的戰務組委還有交通部的林常務處長還有運輸研究所的"},{"start":239.229,"end":259.286,"text":"那個王副所長,還有各位的書副之長,把你們這整個大頭出來,我要給你們講一個概念,在那裡面他們提到了,日本老人開車暴衝,或是說物彩煞車的機率降得非常低,我說日本人覺得是這麼厲害,"},{"start":260.327,"end":282.33,"text":"他們說有開始日本的世界上老人開車駕駛造勢的比例最好我想說日本老人台灣科技AI又要向我們台積電學習怎麼比我們台灣更厲害我就調查了一個資料這個資料我唸給部長你們在各位這是對老人一種保障跟開"},{"start":283.37,"end":288.754,"text":"他說跟日本警察廳的司機2023年75歲以上駕駛人涉及60%油門物產致死的車禍裡面日本發展一個新科技防止這種操作的"},{"start":305.288,"end":329.685,"text":"十五,要有兩項,這堆公家單位跟民間的企業真的要配合配合起來,你是一本通,部長你去一本要去調查,說你怎麼做,我告訴你這有那是幾項,大行令,真的是大聲,車輛那麼多他說關鍵的行動是在公司部門合力推廣"},{"start":330.966,"end":352.45,"text":"輔助車也就是要配配先進的安全功能包括自動駕駛的車輛它這個分成兩種一種配配就是碰撞緩解煞車的一種系統車輛這一部分我不知道要怎麼說你要這個資料我給你我相信你一本通應該很了解而且你還有企業的經驗你如果有電視方面的經驗"},{"start":358.931,"end":384.471,"text":"他說這種姿勢是由日本封建的要用台灣 不人說封建Toyota 你就說要用日本來我們要自己創造 自己創新自主的一種科技出來我先這樣說使用毫米多雷達偵測前方的車輛和行人如果看來即將發生碰撞系統會發出警告來提醒駕駛"},{"start":385.99,"end":413.321,"text":"如果車輛太高進系統會自動煞車來防止減輕碰撞的影響日本規定2021年11月所有他們日本國產車輛一定要必備的一個配備第二種就是油門物彩加速抑制的系統它叫做ACPE英文那麼長我就不好意思練了"},{"start":414.813,"end":435.081,"text":"由汽車製造商叫電手私自會設以方便合作開發這個系統就是用感測監控車輛四周的環境如果駕駛人在霧體附近霧彩油門的時候一搭位一看就說那頭前有人他自動會踢了"},{"start":437.138,"end":447.167,"text":"這兩套系統我今天為什麼要特別提出來也感謝我們召委謝宇峰委員去的時候我們都在討論這個問題因為當初有發生我們最近部長說我今天怎麼把你們這裡大方叫來"},{"start":452.532,"end":480.033,"text":"第一個國會 如果這個有專案的預算 國會不要亂踩部長你要指導 我這樣說你知道嗎這台隊有兩個單位啊就是產業技術師 他那天你們的新任的郭市長能力很優秀 那天我們去參觀了所謂點出來 你那邊有在場看你有夠啦沒夠啦看要獨立創新台灣電子的系統整合之類的跟產業發展師"},{"start":482.535,"end":511.035,"text":"所以啊你以前在技師是兩個現在這樣呼調我希望你們真的研究一套比日本更傑出更好的一個系統過來國科會你要參加我為什麼把這幾個單位掉了你不要去做那些說那些說那些五四三的因為我們部長說AI邊緣運算這個裡面以後都會採取這樣的東西在做所以我們要組織團隊做出一種規格世界每一個"},{"start":512.94,"end":527.85,"text":"車輛公司都要來使用我一直 啊交通部為什麼全然研究所那個醫師研究所為什麼你們都要參加來 不要單獨來因為各種狀況的模擬不一樣所以 我一天出來"},{"start":529.158,"end":556.723,"text":"我去參觀了以後我覺得長了知識原來有這套的設計力我們如果你經濟部領導之下好好組織一個團隊來這種老人輔助的工具讓車子老人再開更安全我就想說這一點沒有說要坐車到滿天市啦老人不能開車啦年輕人的肇事率那麼多你就給他開車只是我們要用科技的方法"},{"start":557.643,"end":576.235,"text":"由於台灣在AI裡面會算一個領先者我今天拜託全民過來組織一個團隊專門研究這樣世界上藝人的汽車有多少那個才是真正能幫助老人解決開車的問題又能稱讚我們產業的價值保證你看看嘛"},{"start":578.476,"end":599.773,"text":"你會不會這樣來做?完全照委員的意思我今天組成這樣的一個專案這樣的小組馬上來執行因為這個跟安全有生命關係的部分都是我們努力的部分我感覺這個一定要做而且這個市場非常的大值得我們來推動"},{"start":601.474,"end":623.802,"text":"值得你們推廣 做出一個超越世界 讓人家說台灣不但電視厲害 現在可以發展到無人駕駛裡面 這很重要謝謝委員的提示 這個對我們來講非常大的鼓勵我們會努力來做因為我覺得這個產業很大對於高齡的老人確實要照顧安全很多 不能隨便說"},{"start":626.123,"end":639.561,"text":"預算不要亂載這條我會特別聽你們父母通過做是最好的因為我的年齡以後開車子也要靠這個來幫忙啦我們要想到未來不要想到目前而已啦好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":691,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時5分）主席，首先有請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。剛剛聽到邱志偉委員講永安的油槽非常重要，要加強維護，這點我承認，邱志偉委員確實高瞻遠矚，但是我要跟部長講一件事情，永安的油槽在輸送的時候，會經過我們苗栗通霄的地下電纜再輸送到北部，所以這個地方也要好好地溝通、協調一下。你不要以為永安的重要、苗栗的不重要，但是那邊一炸的話就完蛋了，你也要好好地協調、溝通，我先提醒你。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：只有謝謝喔？你回答他那麼多，回答我那麼少，只有「謝謝」兩個字。"],["郭部長智輝：代表我們的感謝。"],["陳委員超明：部長真的要注意這個問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我十二萬分地感謝您。"],["陳委員超明：我不是要十二萬分的感謝，官話就是這麼講，我是要你瞭解，地方確實在反映，我要讓你曉得以天然氣運輸路線的中途站來講，苗栗的通霄非常重要，請你特別關心一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：今天召委特別安排「因應高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」，我們在鄉下推動得非常困難，老人大多騎摩托車或自行開車，公共運輸設施、bus等等，現在乘坐的人很少，所以我看推展起來會比較困難。","召委非常關心高齡化社會老人開車的問題，而且最近的新聞非常熱門。我是40年次，也被記者問到：「陳委員，你開車會不會有問題？」我說：「選舉就沒有問題，問我開車的問題？」每一個狀況不一樣，但是這裡面已經產生了社會安全的問題，也變成歧視高齡駕駛的問題。召委非常關心、非常注重這個議題，在上上個禮拜特別安排去車輛測試中心考察，我心想：奇怪，這個中心很少去。我從苗栗開車到彰化去參加，我在那邊也學習了很多，增長了很多原來車子是這樣發展的知識。","今天講到高齡化社會，臺灣65歲以上人口的比率已經超過20%，要保障像我們這樣的人開車，包括你也一樣，不曉得你的年齡、我的年齡誰比較大，看起來你比我年輕多了，像我弟弟一樣。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我是你弟弟。"],["陳委員超明：不是，我是比喻。講到年輕，你就笑起來了，你真的很年輕，但是我們都會遇到高齡開車的問題。我到車輛測試中心的時候，我們把這個問題拿出來，他們也指點了幾個方向，所以我要請產業技術司郭司長、產業發展署邱署長、國家發展委員會詹副主委、交通部林常務次長、運輸研究所王副所長及國科會蘇副主委，請你們幾位首長出來，是因為我要跟你們講幾個概念。他們提到日本老人開車暴衝或誤踩煞車的機率非常低，我問日本人真的那麼厲害嗎？他們說日本老人開車肇事的比率確實是世界上最低。我想以我們臺灣的高科技，連AI都要向我們台積電學習，他們真的會比我們臺灣厲害嗎？我就調查了一個資料，我唸給部長、你們聽，這是對老人的一種保障。","根據日本警察廳的數據，2023年75歲以上駕駛人涉及60%油門誤踩致死車禍，日本發展了一種新科技，以防止這種操作上的失誤，所以公家單位跟民間企業真的要配合起來，你是日本通，部長，你要去日本調查他們是怎麼做的，我跟你說，這真的是一筆大生意，畢竟我們的車輛有那麼多。","再來，它關鍵的行動是在公私部門合力推廣輔助車，也就是要配備先進的安全功能，包括自動駕駛的車輛，且當中分成兩個系統，一種配備叫做碰撞緩解煞車系統，這是用日本語寫的，我不知道要怎麼說，如果你要這個資料，我可以提供給你，你是日本通，相信應該很了解。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：而且你還有企業方面的經驗，也有電子方面的經驗。","此外，這是日本豐田開發的，但你們不應跟著用豐田Toyota的，甚至以後就用日本的系統，我們要自己創造、創新一種科技出來；然後這個系統使用毫米波雷達偵測前方的車輛和行人，如果即將發生碰撞，系統會發出警告的聲音提醒駕駛；如果車輛太靠近，系統會以自動煞車來防止、減輕碰撞的影響。日本有規定，2021年11月他們所有國產車輛一定要必備上述的配備。","第二種就是油門誤踩加速抑制的系統，他們叫做ACPE，英文那麼長，我就不好意思唸了，這個系統是由汽車製造商Denso株式會社與豐田合作開發，就是用感測器監控車輛四周的環境，如果駕駛人在物體附近誤踩油門的時候，它會自動抑制加速，這兩套系統我今天為什麼要特別提出來，也感謝召委謝衣鳯委員安排的參觀，當時我們也都在討論這個問題，因為最近也發生了一些誤踩事件，今天為何把你們這些大官都叫來？第一個，如果這個有專案的預算，國發會不要亂砍，部長，你要主導，我這樣說你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：完全了解。"],["陳委員超明：這裡面有兩個單位，首先就是產業技術司，你們新任的郭司長能力很優秀，那天我們有去參觀，他們也有在場，總之，就是看你是否夠力，包括我們自己要能獨立創生然後如何整合我們臺灣的電子系統；還有產業發展司邱司長，他以前是在技術司，現在是兩個互調，我希望你們真的研究出一套比日本更傑出、更好的系統；國科會你也要參加，我為什麼把這幾個單位找來？你們不要去做那些五四三的，因為我們部長說了AI邊緣運算，以後裡面都會做這樣的東西，所以我們要組織團隊做出一種規格，以後世界每一間車輛公司都要來使用；交通部運輸研究所你們也都要參加，不要自己單獨運作，因為各種狀況的模擬都不一樣。那天參觀了以後，我覺得自己長了知識，原來是有這套的設計，所以如果能在經濟部的領導之下，好好組織一個團隊來做這種可以輔助老人的工具，讓老人開車更安全，不然報導總是寫說老人不能開車，但年輕人的肇事率那麼高，你卻給他開車，所以我們要用科技的方法，尤其臺灣在AI裡面也算是一個領先者，我今天在此拜託你們，請你們組織一個團隊，專門研究這樣的技術，畢竟世界上一年產出的汽車很多，那才能真正幫助老人解決開車的問題，又能增加我們產業的價值，部長，你有沒有要這樣做呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我會完全依照委員的意思，趕快組成這樣的一個專案小組，馬上來執行。"],["陳委員超明：屆時再來看它發揮的成效、成果。"],["郭部長智輝：跟安全、跟生命有關係的部分，都是我們努力的部分。"],["陳委員超明：我覺得這一定要做。"],["郭部長智輝：是，而且這個市場非常的大，值得我們來推動。"],["陳委員超明：值得你們來推廣，並且做出一個超越世界的設計、規格，讓人家覺得臺灣不但電子厲害，現在還可以發展到無人駕駛等方面，這個很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的提示，這個對我們來講是非常大的鼓勵，我們會努力來做。"],["陳委員超明：因為我覺得這個產業很大，對於高齡的老人，確實他的安全要照顧很多，所以不要只是說說而已，相關預算也不要亂砍，這筆預算我會特別護航你們通過，請做出最好的，因為以我的年齡來看，以後開車可能也要靠這個來幫忙，我們要想到未來，不要只想到目前而已，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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simulation那這些情境的分析啊那麼我們可能就是可能會在現貨市場裡面去取得一些協助啦"},{"start":112.21,"end":133.508,"text":"那雖然現在是已經方法有很多啦那可能抱歉在這個地方我不便跟這個對 因為它是這個最近的供應國啦譬如說你澳洲 巴布亞 紐西蘭 再來美國美國未來它的佔比現在是10%左右美國未來會不會提升天然氣採購的佔比"},{"start":135.39,"end":142.425,"text":"當然未來美國應該是會我們調高天然氣購買來源的一個非常重要的一個關鍵"},{"start":144.386,"end":164.12,"text":"所以在目前的這個狀況之下我們估計會目前是百分之十左右未來對美國天然氣的比例比重大概會到什麼樣的一個規模我們大概我們希望說能夠到達這個穩定的狀況這個很抽象穩定的狀況對就是穩定因為這個其實跟委員報告這種東西都是動態的"},{"start":173.527,"end":201.607,"text":"這個市場裡面一定是狀態他新聞來看 新聞來看應該是中東比較雙是不是這樣他新聞來看 美俄洲比巴布尼亞比美國這新聞來看 應該是中東比較雙所以我們這樣卡他 才不會這樣我們三峽左右所以我要提醒經濟部如果說一旦荷姆斯被封鎖讓三峽位卡他出來這個天然氣供應 你們可能要做有一些因應的方案"},{"start":204.235,"end":223.766,"text":"我們都有這個因應的方案所以不會造成天然氣供應因為這個赫姆斯海峽封鎖而造成影響會有一些影響啦但是我們 我想 我知道這個委員的關注的部分我們有交代 交期不能夠影響"},{"start":224.915,"end":228.199,"text":"所以我們可以調整,譬如說他要去保障的生活人員,這都可以調整他要給保障的人也是要為他卡他出來"},{"start":244.355,"end":246.678,"text":"我們當然可以尋求對澳洲或對美國增加經濟衛生來支援"},{"start":263.159,"end":279.086,"text":"我是說確定要供應不會造成說我們天然氣供應的不足或者造成因為這可能會是一個長期的效應不知道說它會豐收多久可是它要豐收一年我們本來是三十萬卡拉出來沒辦法出來這影響很大我們這也是有變成五百年"},{"start":282.208,"end":303.967,"text":"只要經濟部我相信經濟部有相關的因應方案那現在永安天然氣LNG廠現在當然天然氣進來你要擴大天然氣儲存量 要建儲槽我希望這個部分可能終於要去跟這個地方多做溝通我想這個地方上在永安是反對聲音還蠻大的我覺得要多做溝通"},{"start":306.82,"end":313.928,"text":"至於說前幾天在永安的說明會,我覺得地方上是一致性的強烈反對"},{"start":318.052,"end":343.596,"text":"我們都可以了解這個國人的這些擔心但是我們會在就像委員講的這個我們希望能夠多溝通讓國人都知道這個天然氣它的排碳是現在的這個燒煤的你要借一個除潮就是安全性的一定要地方有共識要當地的這個市民支持"},{"start":344.775,"end":364.941,"text":"否則我作為當地的民意代表作為立法委員我覺得我電視上好讓地方的聲音那他們來跟我申請他們說明說目前出朝還是有安全之餘但是你要多做溝通啦所以多做溝通我如果你們取得當地這個我們市民的同意我當然是無條件支持所以謝謝委員支持"},{"start":365.441,"end":386.501,"text":"因為過去這個除潮是在地下這幾點我都知道地下跟地上差異在哪裡 安全係數有沒有多少變化可能要多做幾次溝通那另外就是說為什麼要請蘇政剛蘇副主委白埔產業園區是過去我跟經濟部爭取作為傳統產業園區"},{"start":388.863,"end":411.081,"text":"現在市政府當然很積極希望說把北高雄這個橋頭跟岡山變成一個宜居然後高科技然後健康的一個城市所以北高雄外山坑外橋頭外到岡山是未來我有一個夢想要把它打造成高雄市的這個岡橋副都心"},{"start":413.883,"end":442.118,"text":"富多基你要完善的入網你要完善的這個醫療設施你要有這個環境也很好然後這個宜居然後交通又方便然後另外就有產業產業就是高科技嘛產業進駐就會有機會所以白布產業園區我們希望說能夠爭取到這個TSMC啊能夠在考慮在這地方設廠這個有硫化物的問題嗎"},{"start":444.09,"end":465.994,"text":"我想個別廠商的設廠他有針對製程的條件不一他會關心很多種不同的相關的周邊的條件那剛剛邱委員所提示的其實非常正確也就是說相關的產業業績在開發的時候我們在串聯整個南台灣的產業狼帶的時候會考量到九大配套措施包含生活機能交通這個都會一起來放一起來納入考量"},{"start":466.274,"end":484.239,"text":"TSMC社長有他的專業考量有他們公司的這個相關的專業判斷但是地方政府的支持地方政府的這個這個協助也很重要但是中央也要協助地方政府啦齁所以地方政府要合作來跟台積電說明這是一個好的地方啦我是說我每天在那齁"},{"start":488.8,"end":517.314,"text":"這比我國家好一點好一點應該是很好的一個地方我是拜託國客會跟經濟部可以再跟TSMC去考量去說明這是一個他們選項之一我認為一定要放在那裡選項之一啦如果有國客會跟這個經濟部推薦他們會覺得會有更多的意願所以今天我們拜託國務部長和書副主委"},{"start":518.733,"end":539.259,"text":"另外交通部的部分今天林市長高齡者開車駕車安全性是所有高齡者必須去重視的問題但你不要忽略一個問題的重點在哪裡問題本是說都會區跟非都會區年長者"},{"start":544.276,"end":569.374,"text":"使用運具的這個習慣是不一樣因為工具會產生他們的這個使用習慣好 都會區它有很多選項班次密集 有捷運 有公車路網 對不對它不需要騎摩托車 它不需要自己開車它可以很便利 很方便 很安全到哪一場去的地方但是非都會區 比方說高雄市北邊它雖然有捷運 但只有這一條"},{"start":571.189,"end":596.754,"text":"很多區域都需要自己開車或騎摩托車所以你要考慮到這個區域的差別對這些年長者他們使用應居的需求跟標準以及協助你要有不同的思維 你不要疑似同仁是 委員講的是重點 確實如此你要針對非度位區這些長者他沒有其他的選擇 他一定要開車他一定要騎摩托車"},{"start":599.256,"end":605.304,"text":"現在他們子女可能在出外上班沒有辦法在家裡他必須靠自己"},{"start":606.435,"end":624.599,"text":"這種情況之下他沒有公共交通運輸可以選擇的時候怎麼辦呢委員您講的是重點如果沒有公共運輸他勢必要自行開車或家人接送那自行開車的過程我們這個制度並不是不讓他開車我們是要他在75歲或是我理解這種需求會對非都會區的長者會更為需求強度會更強確實"},{"start":632.32,"end":655.671,"text":"所以你跟他們有更多的政策上的協助配套的措施讓他們可以安心的開車所以這部分這個應該是行政部門跟交通部要去做一個完整的規劃我想把這個問題點出來讓交通部門能夠理解最後這個幾個計畫都是交通平權交通平權就是縣市的平權然後都會區跟非都會區也要平權"},{"start":656.792,"end":673.591,"text":"這個建設這幾都是北高雄為公共運輸能夠強化讓這些長者不用自己開車騎到拜所以現在五省 省省差不多5.09億現在還在報道交通部在誰我希望交通部能夠全力支持"},{"start":674.892,"end":698.42,"text":"這個清單我都把你列出來的有 委員我想待會我會把這清單再請次長去了解一下我們部門跟公務局會你們再跟高雄市政府交通局再做溝通好不好這些都是針對非都會區怎麼樣去改善這個交通平權怎麼樣讓非都會區的長者能夠安全的駕駛是 每個地方有特定的議題所以我們歸納來處理好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時53分）謝謝主席。我是不是請經濟部郭部長……"],["主席：郭部長。"],["邱委員志偉：還有國科會蘇副主委。"],["主席：蘇副主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：部長早。部長，辛苦了。昨天我大概看了一下CNN及BBC對美國針對伊朗核設施空襲的報導，當然我今天早上也特別注意，伊朗的議會已經通過可能要對荷姆茲海峽進行封鎖，那個可能還要經過安全會議。一旦封鎖，現在我們的天然氣來源國應該是以澳洲第一，澳洲差不多三成多，再來應該是卡達，再來是美國，再來是巴布亞紐幾內亞，差不多是這樣，如果我沒記錯數字的話……"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：卡達差不多占三成，兩成七左右，荷姆茲海峽如果封鎖，對我們天然氣的接收、供應會造成影響嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然是會影響，我們在上禮拜就開始針對這些情形來做一些simulation、做情境的分析，我們可能會在現貨市場裡面去取得一些協助，雖然現在方法有很多，但是抱歉，在這個地方我可能不便跟委員……"],["邱委員志偉：對，因為他是最近的供應國，當然澳洲也是一個，還有巴布亞紐幾內亞，再來是美國，美國的占比現在是百分之十左右，未來會不會提升對美國天然氣採購的占比？"],["郭部長智輝：當然未來美國應該會是我們調高天然氣購買占比一個非常重要的、關鍵的來源，所以目前在這個狀況之下，我們都……"],["邱委員志偉：目前是百分之十左右，我們估計未來對美國天然氣採購的比率、比重大概會到什麼樣的規模？"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望能夠到達穩定的狀況，到底多少比率……"],["邱委員志偉：穩定的狀況，這個很抽象。"],["郭部長智輝：對，就是穩定，跟委員報告，這些東西都是動態的，這是dynamic，這個市場裡面一定是動態，不會……"],["邱委員志偉：以成本來看，應該是中東比較便宜，是不是這樣？以成本來看，比澳洲、比巴布亞紐幾內亞、比美國，以這些成本來看，應該是中東比較便宜嘛，所以卡達才會占我們的三成左右。所以我要提醒經濟部，如果一旦荷姆茲海峽被封鎖，我們三成從卡達出來的天然氣供應，你們可能要有一些因應的方案，我相信經濟部有方案啦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有因應的方案。"],["邱委員志偉：所以不會造成天然氣供應因為荷姆茲海峽封鎖而造成影響？"],["郭部長智輝：會有一些影響，當然會有影響，但是我知道委員關注的部分……"],["邱委員志偉：如果他封鎖是短期……"],["郭部長智輝：我們有交代交期不能夠影響，就是我們需要的……"],["邱委員志偉：船出不來，他就沒辦法供應，你瞭解意思嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！所以我們可以調整，有關那個部分，譬如他要給別人的先給我們，這都可以調整的。"],["邱委員志偉：他要給別人的，也是要從卡達出來，那是唯一的通道。"],["郭部長智輝：他可以繞一圈出來。"],["邱委員志偉：不是啦，我是要提醒經濟部這個部分要謹慎因應。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。報告委員，我們當然可以尋求對澳洲或者對美國增加，然後從那邊來支援。"],["邱委員志偉：短時間來得及嗎？我是擔心短時間是不是來得及。我是說確定要供應，不會造成我們天然氣供應不足，因為這可能會是一個長期的效應，不知道他會封鎖多久，如果他封鎖一年，我們有30%要從卡達出來，一旦沒辦法出來，這個影響很大。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是有評估半年。"],["邱委員志偉：好，只要經濟部有方案，我相信經濟部有相關的因應方案。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：現在永安天然氣LNG廠，當然天然氣進來，你要擴大天然氣儲存量，要建儲槽，我希望這個部分可能中油要跟地方多做溝通，我想地方上，永安的反對聲音還滿大的，我覺得要多做溝通，至於前幾天在永安的說明會，我覺得地方上是一致性的強烈反對。部長，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都可以了解國人的這一些擔心，但是就像委員講的，我們希望能夠多溝通，讓國人都知道天然氣的排碳是現在燒煤的……"],["邱委員志偉：是啦！你要建一個儲槽，絕對是要安全性的，一定要地方有共識，要當地的市民支持，否則我作為當地的民意代表、作為立法委員，我覺得我一定要考量到地方的聲音，他們來跟我陳情，他們說明目前儲槽還是有安全之虞，但是你們應該要多做溝通。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以多做溝通，如果你們取得我們當地市民的同意，我當然是無條件支持。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員支持。因為過去儲槽是在地下，現在……"],["邱委員志偉：這個過程我都知道，但是地下跟地上，差異在哪裡、安全係數有多少變化，可能也要多做幾次溝通。"],["郭部長智輝：好，是的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外為什麼要請蘇振綱蘇副主委，白埔產業園區是過去我跟經濟部爭取作為傳統產業園區，現在市政府當然很積極希望把北高雄的橋頭跟岡山變成宜居，而且是高科技、健康的一個城市。所以北高雄，我的選區從橋頭到岡山，我有個夢想，要把它打造成高雄市的崗橋副都心。副都心要有完善的路網、完善的醫療設施，環境要很好，不僅宜居，交通又方便，另外要有產業，產業就是高科技，產業進駐就會有就業機會，所以針對白埔產業園區，我們希望能夠爭取TSMC考慮在這個地方設廠，這個有硫化物的問題嗎？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：我想個別廠商的設廠針對製程的條件不一，會關心很多種不同相關周邊的條件。剛剛邱委員所提示的其實非常正確，也就是說，相關的產業園區在開發的時候，我們在串聯整個南臺灣廊帶的時候，會考量到九大配套措施，包含生活機能、交通，這些都會一起納入考量。"],["邱委員志偉：TSMC設廠有其專業考量、該公司相關的專業判斷，地方政府的支持、協助很重要，但是中央也要協助地方政府，所以地方政府要跟中央政府要合作向台積電說明這裡是好的地點。我每天在這裡把地方顧得好好的，這裡應該是一個很好的地點，拜託國科會及經濟部能夠跟TSMC說明，請他們考量這是他們的選項之一。我不是說一定要放在這裡，但是選項之一，如果有國科會及經濟部推薦，他們會有更多的意願，這點拜託郭部長及蘇副主委。"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，交通部的部分，今天……"],["主席：請林次長。"],["邱委員志偉：開車、駕車的安全性是所有高齡者必須重視的問題，但不要忽略一個問題，重點在哪裡？問題的本質是，都會區跟非都會區年長者使用運具的習慣不一樣，因為供給會產生他們的使用習慣。都會區有很多選項，包括班次密集、有捷運及公車路網，對不對？他們不需要騎摩托車，不需要自己開車，就可以很便利、很方便、很安全地到達想去的地方；但是非都會區，比方高雄市的北邊雖然有捷運，卻只有一條，很多區域都需要自己開車或騎摩托車。所以你要考量到區域的差別，對這些年長者使用運具的需求、標準及協助要有不同的思維，不能一視同仁。"],["林次長國顯：是，委員講的是重點，確實如此。"],["邱委員志偉：你要針對非都會區長者沒有其他的選擇，他一定要開車、一定要騎摩托車，沒有開車、沒有騎摩托車……他的子女可能出外上班，沒有辦法在家裡，他必須靠自己，在這種情況之下，他沒有公共交通運輸可以選擇的時候，怎麼辦呢？"],["林次長國顯：委員，您講的是重點，如果沒有公共運輸，他勢必要自行開車或請家人接送，至於自行開車的過程，我們這個制度並不是不讓他開車，而是要讓他在75歲或是每幾年確認一下他適不適合……"],["邱委員志偉：我理解，對非都會區的長者而言，這種需求的強度會更強。"],["林次長國顯：確實。"],["邱委員志偉：所以應該給予他們更多政策上的協助、配套的措施，讓他們可以安心地開車……"],["林次長國顯：瞭解，這個我們會納入。"],["邱委員志偉：這個應該是行政部門、交通部要去做一個完整的規劃。"],["林次長國顯：應該的。"],["邱委員志偉：我想把這個問題點出來，讓交通部能夠理解。"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：最後，簡報上這幾個計畫都是有關交通平權，交通平權有縣市的平權，都會區與非都會區也要平權，這些建設都是為了北高雄公共運輸能夠強化，讓長者不用自己開車、騎摩托車。這些預算算一算差不多5.09億，現在報到交通部審議，我希望交通部能夠全力支持。這個清單我都列出來了，待會我會把這個清單再請次長去瞭解一下。"],["林次長國顯：委員，我想我們部門跟公路局會加速來協助。"],["邱委員志偉：你們再跟高雄市政府交通局做溝通，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：這些都是針對非都會區怎麼樣去改善交通平權、怎麼樣讓非都會區的長者能夠安全駕駛。"],["林次長國顯：是，每個地方有特定的議題，所以我們歸納來處理。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝各位。"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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