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謝謝大家好 謝謝各位我們今天現在"},{"start":1914.358,"end":1936.078,"text":"開始協商會議本日協商台灣民眾黨黨團拟據法院組織法部分條文修正草案協商進行前先介紹在場的委員首先右手邊莊瑞雄委員陳培宇委員左手邊羅志強委員"},{"start":1938.942,"end":1960.017,"text":"還有張祺凱委員、林國成委員、劉書斌委員非常感謝三個黨團都有代表到場我們今天列席的官員有司法院的副秘書長王梅英王副秘歡迎有行政廳的廳長吳作成吳廳長"},{"start":1963.393,"end":1983.653,"text":"有行政廳的法官 李曉芬 李法官還有法務部檢察司的司長 張曉文以及主任檢察官 范孟山好 歡迎針對今天協商 我們就現在開始"},{"start":1985.768,"end":2010.625,"text":"那台灣民眾黨黨團拟據法院組織法部分條文修正草案經過5月9號第三會期第11次議會決定自委員會抽出禁覆二讀由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商那後來呢有經過民主進步黨的黨團提出覆議那覆議不通過那按照原作的決定來通過那請參閱"},{"start":2012.586,"end":2017.691,"text":"那提案的關係文書與會委員如果修正動議或機關有建議的內容請提出書面應發現場來進行討論那我們現在是不是先請我們一樣"},{"start":2028.261,"end":2046.252,"text":"協商的時候我希望能夠比較有效率一點那各位黨團把自己的立場跟理由說明一下那我們是不是先請提案的黨團台灣民眾黨黨團的代表說明那是不是先請我們台灣民眾黨黨團副總召張祺凱張委員代表說明時間三分鐘 謝謝好"},{"start":2054.807,"end":2071.548,"text":"台灣民眾黨是為了要落實總統府司改會106年做成的決議要求法律省的原詞辯論要前面直播而且嚴厲把事實省的特定案件進行直播這是推動公開透明的司法"},{"start":2072.429,"end":2101.441,"text":"而且是落實總統府司改會的這個決議我們這提了這個修正案明定法例審採取原則公開例外不公開事實審原則不公開例外公開另外我們明定說如果法庭的空間無法容納合理人數進行判定的時候法院得以科技設備將開庭的聲音影像傳到適當空間的延伸法庭公開那今天我們特別帶了一份資料來最近台灣民眾黨也做了民調"},{"start":2103.541,"end":2109.978,"text":"高達71.7%的台灣民眾支持法庭直播包括"},{"start":2111.445,"end":2139.355,"text":"民進黨的民眾啊高達60.8%裡面有30.4%非常支持還算支持的有26.8%不支持的只有33.1%大概是2比1啦就是整體的這個台灣民眾目前有71.7%絕對多數認為應該要推動法庭直播連民進黨的民眾都高達60.8%然後不偏任何政黨的有70.3%看起來是一個公開是一個主流的民意另外從世界上來看"},{"start":2140.555,"end":2155.021,"text":"全世界七大洲啊除了南極洲之外都有法庭直播這包括不只是英國、加拿大連南非跟印尼還有這個印度都有我相信台灣應該沒有比南非沒有比印尼來的弱火包括鄭文榮、鄭麗詩"},{"start":2156.542,"end":2176.928,"text":"在公聽會都特別提出來了他去全世界很多法庭看台灣的法庭真的是落後而且陽光一直沒有照進來連在印尼的法庭都比我們台灣的法庭公開友善所以這次這個修正案非常非常的重要那當然民進黨到現在還是持一個反對的一個意見所以我們今天不只把民調帶過來"},{"start":2178.328,"end":2196.765,"text":"我們也呼籲民進黨今天是不是可以比較適度的我們共同來討論看用什麼樣一個方式可以讓這個法案是可以通過的包括你們在提說可能討論時間不夠那我們可以可以在今天這個協商過後到了院會二讀的時候有多點時間彼此可以共同好好來討論我相信"},{"start":2197.566,"end":2216.6,"text":"推動法庭直播也是民進黨很多以前民眾包括蔡英文蔡總統一直要推動的如果大家共同來努力讓陽光射進這個法庭我相信這個不是只有台灣民眾黨不是只有國民黨一般民眾多數民眾絕對多數的這個支持也是民進黨很多改革知識有的"},{"start":2217.341,"end":2241.452,"text":"包括水泳啊,古早的時尊,我也不認為它應該是直接這個案子,很期待今天可以透過好好的協商,讓這個法庭直播,這一個司法的改革特別是最近,從很多民調都看得出來,民眾對於司法有高度的不信任案甚至高達將近六成的民眾認為說,政治已經干涉到司法,干涉到檢調了,好不好我們共同來努力,讓我們司法可以公開透明謝謝,謝謝張祺凱委員,來請莊瑞雄莊委員"},{"start":2247.534,"end":2271.72,"text":"其實蔡英文來跟我講,我還是會反對她啦不要以為蔡英文講的就是聖旨啦司法國事會議,它其實也不是做成這樣的一個決議啦如果說在我們法院組織法裡面,你說在法律審裡面你要來做一個公開,這個我沒有意見"},{"start":2272.952,"end":2291.583,"text":"我對40省我就真的有疑慮我就真的有疑慮而且當初司改國是會議裡面到也不是在講說在整個40省的部分在整個行政法院或者高等法院地方法院這些法院裡面他一定要去直播到不是這樣的決議他當年是在講說啊"},{"start":2292.984,"end":2302.914,"text":"從你們的立法理由裡面 立法說明裡面其實也講得很清楚嘛就是大法官、憲法法庭跟最高法院跟最高行政法院召開言辭辯論的時候英語直播這個我肯認喔"},{"start":2304.219,"end":2325.296,"text":"這個我沒有意見 這個法律審怎麼樣來規範的一個問題所以我們常常一直在講說法律審原則公開 例外的部分涉及到國安 涉及到有一些可能涉及到隱私 善良風俗的部分那這些你可以去把它做例外的一個禁止那在事實審的部分 我的想法就剛好相反啦"},{"start":2326.016,"end":2352.265,"text":"那剛剛張季凱委員我也看到你一直在講說民意啊 怎麼樣的民意代表多少法院的東西我就最怕民意啊司法如果要重新再倒回去的話我如果不要走到賤地裡面 我來做的書也三十檔啦司法就從來沒有被民眾信任過啦那司法沒有被民眾信任過第一個"},{"start":2353.829,"end":2380.119,"text":"法院裡面的一個組成裡面 還有當事人的構造裡面他就很難去像民意機關 像政治人物 你做得好壞就誰能看得出來我常常在我們司法法治委員會裡面在講啦很多被講說是恐龍法官 恐龍的判決的我常常去講說 他們這樣的一個判決其實是傷害到國民的法律感情可是你如果真的去細究他的整個判決書你仔細去讀它的話 我還真佩服他們咧"},{"start":2383.28,"end":2388.443,"text":"那個邏輯到還剩一貫咧可是就廠長法律很怪啦一貫的邏輯就導出一個民眾沒辦法接受的就很怪我說我們兩個假設我們兩個是對照黃國昌來審我來教你我講民俗就不要講憑書啦講憑書也可以我就要求判你一百萬啦"},{"start":2402.978,"end":2406.621,"text":"要是你賠我一百萬 黃國昌要判你賠我五十萬我會說黃國昌不公平啦 貪污啦 羞辱人質啦 挺你民眾黨的啦因為你怎麼只有判我贏五十萬 張七甲你也一定不爽黃國昌你當我的黨主席 你怎麼沒有挺我 一定被莊瑞雄收買了不然怎麼還會 張七甲還會輸五十萬他怎麼判我們兩個都不滿意"},{"start":2429.035,"end":2445.18,"text":"所以我的意思就是說這個法律尤其是法院的審判裡面你要把用一般所謂的民意的監督這很麻煩如果都要用民意來看的話那就不用去講三權分立啦或者說我們現在的五權的一個體制啦所以是不是用民意這個可以思考但是那個絕對不是一個絕對那我要講的就是說如果說"},{"start":2457.348,"end":2471.093,"text":"當初的講法做成的是一年內去研議法庭直播的範圍跟條件為什麼我剛會罵你的原因是在什麼地方?你動不動就忽一忽,連討論你也不要討論,你就要政府惡賭"},{"start":2473.554,"end":2482.357,"text":"這個是多有名的為什麼我上上我記得是我兩個禮拜前我又召開那一場公聽會其實進赴二讀以後沒有案子的時候連公聽會都不能召開是剛好還好翁小玲有一個案子她談到整個那個法官的一個評議的部分因為所謂的透明的問題還卡到一點邊所以我才可以安排那個公聽會那一場公聽你很清楚啊"},{"start":2502.005,"end":2504.147,"text":"是啊 你就講了一個正文榮之詞而已啊哇 你實在是 你沒有注意去看啦我們不用小便啦 那一天叫做一面倒啦但一面倒 他們這樣也不是用多數來看"},{"start":2524.775,"end":2543.344,"text":"如果你肯認人家叫做學者專家應該是說他講出來的話他到底合不合理他們反對的合不合理不是他的顏色叫做什麼你剛提出那個民調我也沒有質疑你嘛我只是用另外一個方式跟你講說法院的判決如果都要用民意"},{"start":2545.523,"end":2564.658,"text":"我最擔心的就是法院用民意 要是要民意 法官的組成 法院組織法就把它劃掉啊總統審全台灣最爭議的案件 六都的縣市首長 又給一數的今天都立法院來審 還有縣市議會來審 大家都代表民意啊司法用民意亂了 反而司法常常就是在對抗民意司法追求的是一個獨立審判"},{"start":2575.868,"end":2578.893,"text":"他不應該讓民意來介入啊 會亂去人真的啦 如果要用民意來審喔審到尾巴 尤其是刑事案件"},{"start":2585.885,"end":2606.224,"text":"你們害到你們啦 我要在語重心長跟你講法律省的 不 我再講一次 法律省我真的沒有意見啦那事實省 法律省我沒有意見嘛 這個大家都法律人 那個部分本來就可以討論但是事實省的疑慮的時候 你們沒有澄清我要講的是你們都沒有澄清嘛 涉及到國安理怎麼辦"},{"start":2608.575,"end":2611.597,"text":"當事人 尤其是兩兆 因為你有好多排除嘛 國安當然我知道你們會排除啊那像比如說涉及到善良風俗的問題啊 送導人因為秘密的問題啊你把證人找來的時候 你還沒有開始證言的時候 你怎麼知道他在講些什麼呢"},{"start":2629.443,"end":2640.577,"text":"那你已經公開直播了 公開直播 停停 沒要直播是這樣子嗎所以我的意思是說 大家這些疑慮要澄清 要講清楚不是不能立法"},{"start":2641.803,"end":2656.929,"text":"哪有不能立法的 立法案哪有不能立法的惡法了不起是被民眾幹掉而已啊立法案被修理而已啊違憲還有憲法法庭啊只是說現在運作比較困難而已啊所以我的意思是說我那一場的公聽會裡面真的也聽到很寶貴的一些反對的意見我們也要把它"},{"start":2661.59,"end":2669.435,"text":"聽進去,那你去說服他嘛,就把這些反對,我覺得不會啊,你這反對的,你就亂講啊,像那麼多法官,那麼多有實務經驗的人,他們來講的這一些,我倒會覺得,如果要讓他,要讓他,你說要陽光進來,我也贊成啦,我意思是說,這個疑慮我們要怎麼做,這個疑慮是不是,"},{"start":2684.98,"end":2693.67,"text":"我們立法院有辦法自圓其說 贊成人有辦法自圓其說我保證你張七愷你講沒有啦 我沒跟你騙啦 你們怎麼會辦公室幫你寫一寫 你這個哪叫做對話呢 我的意思"},{"start":2708.393,"end":2730.041,"text":"你現在又聽不懂我的話你又聽不懂我的疑慮你又聽不懂事實審的部分你就會涉及到有這些的疑慮我強調的是說我們如果要求法官他要獨立審判的話你要獨立審判的話你用民意進來你說要陽光走進來這個大家聽了民眾都會贊成民眾會贊成但是審判制度的核心是獨立審判"},{"start":2738.439,"end":2764.918,"text":"公開好事啊台灣走到什麼已經走到什麼這樣的一個階段了哪有可能秘密審判不可能啊只是說你那個公開是要對特定人公開還是對社會大眾公開還是公開的方式你認為那種公開判決書的公開或者說一個實體的空間理論公開你認為是不夠的你一定會去直播那就把這些疑慮來講清楚的話"},{"start":2765.879,"end":2766.059,"text":"謝謝那個不好意思齁"},{"start":2791.499,"end":2810.533,"text":"那個謝謝莊惠琼委員大家也可以感覺到那個主席雖然一開始宣告每個黨團代表每一輪發言以三分鐘的原則但基於我對莊委員的尊重我也是讓莊委員暢所欲言雖然莊委員發言的時候"},{"start":2811.614,"end":2823.86,"text":"有時候用我當例子但我也是保持著冷靜客觀的精神不會因為這樣而被冒犯因為以我來講的話你說一個一百萬的案件五十萬要向我收賠這個是已經對我的人格"},{"start":2829.862,"end":2850.988,"text":"構成重大汙辱行情沒有對啦對啦我行情沒這麼差啦我簡單這樣講就好了啦好那第二個事情我也要澄清的事情是說因為今天討論的法院組織法我們在處理的是有關於法庭裡面的錄音錄影可不可以公開播送的問題"},{"start":2852.848,"end":2877.255,"text":"還不涉及到我們要把審判者交由一般的人民來進行民意投票這樣子的問題我們沒有提這個法案因為我怕有時候有一些網友沒有看到法案的內容產生誤會以為我們在修法院組織法是要把審判者交由人民來投票不是這樣子的提案我們現在提案的核心"},{"start":2879.255,"end":2899.6,"text":"其實是有關於就法庭的錄音錄影可不可以公開播送那公開播送其實有兩種一種是Live的就是所謂的直播那另外一種呢是Delay Live就是實際上面發生的它有發生池葉在外國的國家實踐的"},{"start":2902.08,"end":2918.622,"text":"例子其實還蠻多的在法條上面我想要做觀念上面先做這樣子的一個澄清不過第三點也感謝我們莊瑞雄委員因為我覺得大家有不同的立場在民主社會裡面很正常"},{"start":2919.423,"end":2938.791,"text":"那促進對話這個是好事那最起碼我們往前邁了一步嘛剛剛莊委員也表達了站在民主進步黨黨團的立場就法律審的部分他基本上是贊成的那我們現在核心的關鍵就是說事實審的部分原則上是禁止"},{"start":2939.611,"end":2963.264,"text":"例外的時候公開這個例外公開 事實審的例外公開這個例外是不是要把它保留那這個其實就現在我們能夠藉由黨團協商把我們的爭點進一步的集中化來整理爭點我覺得這個黨團協商也是有意義的啦那不曉得說那個志強委員 來 請羅志強委員"},{"start":2969.261,"end":2993.608,"text":"我想今天有關於法院組織法的修正我覺得也是一個很好的契機特別是近年來我們司法的公信力就是逐漸的下降司法作為我們今天社會公正的最大的一個屏障如果司法公信力不被信任的話實際上對整個社會來講都是一個非常不利的情形"},{"start":2994.298,"end":3023.35,"text":"那大家知道信任基礎有時候就是來自於透明透明到什麼程度那就是兩面刃嘛那各有利弊但是呢我今天還是在講說比方說舉例子我們現在在討論的第一個修正的條文就是比如86條它上面訴訟之辯論跟裁判的宣示因公開法庭刑之但有妨害國家安全公共秩序以及善良風俗之於者至於使法院得決定不予公開"},{"start":3024.437,"end":3049.615,"text":"其實涉及一個最根本的問題就是這個條文本身它是秉持的一個公開精神希望能夠透過一個公開透明的方式然後讓大家能夠去見證司法的公正但是呢現在大家也知道所謂的公開如果說錄影影像它不能夠透過某種方式來去傳送給社會公眾的時候的話"},{"start":3050.396,"end":3066.364,"text":"大家就會受地方場域場所的限制雖然說今天我們立法院我們現在現在這個也是在直播當中啊可是我跟你講說我們這個地方我們是公開透明但是抱歉我們不能影像不能夠外傳我只准你到場這邊來看"},{"start":3067.685,"end":3092.928,"text":"但座位有限你來的話如果人滿的時候你要抽籤要什麼方式來做那我說實在那不就是折損了公開的美意嗎所以換言之我們的司法其實也想要把公開的精神放在這整個包括辯論跟裁判的宣示上那既然是如此的話我們應該再多往前走一步那如果說一開始我們就反認為公開會傷害司法審判獨立的話"},{"start":3094.588,"end":3114.483,"text":"那你不要講說影像的播送你連公開都不該公開啊更何況大家看原始的條文裡面妨害國家安全公共秩序善良風俗本來就可以不公開嘛而且是由法院來決定所以這個部分我覺得算是本身相當的走遠只是說今天民眾黨的提案在這個公開基礎上往前多走一步"},{"start":3115.023,"end":3135.263,"text":"也就像公開的可及性增加啦就不再是受限這個場域那至於是你要用Live還是Delay Live這都是還可以才討論甚至法院可以決定我看裡面是由法院來決定嘛所以總而言之我覺得我們今天應該是還是怎麼去力促司法更得到人民的信任從這個角度來去出發的話你會覺得說"},{"start":3137.845,"end":3151.113,"text":"事實上我們把公開的這個基礎之上讓影像也可以讓社會公眾可以有接近可以接近這些影像的一個真實那我覺得對於法庭的所謂的一個司法的公信力是有幫助的 以上"},{"start":3152.934,"end":3178.762,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員時間控制得非常精準那意見也表達得非常的透徹非常感謝羅志強委員那因為我剛剛也說了啦因為我們如果協商的時候一個各黨團立場的表達各黨團各自負政治責任這本來在民主國家當中責任政治的精神本來就是如此那我相信"},{"start":3180.063,"end":3193.299,"text":"今天參與協商各個黨團的代表都是民意政治的專家也不勞我贅述那我只是希望說在接下來法案處理上面能夠更有效率一點所以我"},{"start":3194.941,"end":3217.293,"text":"在主席的身份上我試圖的希望能夠把針點能夠更聚焦一點看今天協商能不能夠稍微有一點點進展那在這樣子的情況之下我是不是能夠因為看起來核心的真實條文是第90條的規定因為這是總共有五個條文的修正"},{"start":3218.374,"end":3242.524,"text":"那我現在是不是可以先請教一下第一個針對第86條的規定現行法院組織法86條規定訴訟之辯論及裁判的宣示應公開法庭刑之但有妨害國家安全公共秩序或善良風俗之餘者法院的決定不予公開這本來就是現行的條文那台灣民眾黨黨團所提出的是在增加兩項"},{"start":3244.245,"end":3264.038,"text":"第二項的規定說前項應公開的程序在法庭空間無法容納合理人數時法院可以以科技設備將開庭的聲音影像傳送至適當的空間的延伸法庭公開刑制那第二項的規定依照我目前的理解在實務上面"},{"start":3264.798,"end":3286.252,"text":"也有採刑在實務上面也有採刑有的時候法庭比較小那去的人比較多有用延伸法庭那有的時候當然社會矚目的案件即使是延伸法庭都要抽籤即使是延伸法庭都要抽籤特別是在目前法院操作的實務上就實際的本法庭"},{"start":3287.473,"end":3311.075,"text":"那法院他們本於他們自己針對法庭空間的指揮權常常把非常多的位置都留給我們司法記者的好朋友這也無可厚非讓司法記者的好朋友他們有比較多的空間跟可能性坐到位置來報導不管他們人來或者是不來因為我"},{"start":3312.516,"end":3331.447,"text":"參與法庭活動的經驗還蠻多的有的時候看到空空的一堆位子都沒有人坐我也很納悶後來才發現原來是保留給司法記者這我也可以理解司法記者很忙常常法庭進進出出的要報導很多案件但不管怎麼講現行的延伸法庭"},{"start":3332.687,"end":3354.177,"text":"把他的明文化規定在法院組織法當中那同時相關法院組織法的規定來與准用所以我想如果大家允許的話我是不是可以先就沒有爭點的部分來過濾一下針對86條這樣子的修正不曉得水泳你有意見嗎 來請我這一條"},{"start":3358.895,"end":3381.241,"text":"涉及到法院的實務是不是防腐蜜 你如果在問議長審判實務你們應該最清楚嘛 這個也應該你們可以提出一個更好你們的看法你們的看法是怎麼樣 這條給你們來看不然如果是一個公開法庭 它如果是一個延伸法庭的一個概念的話"},{"start":3383.281,"end":3401.597,"text":"一般立法院會認為沒有什麼啦,但你們實務上你們的看法是什麼,也要尊重,那時候是你們整個,因為涉及到整個訴訟指揮,到最後又是審判長嘛,那你說審判長本來在一個法庭裡面,那後來又變成一個延伸法庭,那對實務每一個範圍裡面,對你們來說有困難嗎,我們也聽聽他們的看法。"},{"start":3407.47,"end":3432.683,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下第二項的規定是說法院得以科技設備傳送我沒有寫因 是得所以顯然就是讓法官因地制宜但沒有關係針對86條增訂第二項第三項的規定現在是不是可以請司法院我們的應該是代理秘書長是不是"},{"start":3434.085,"end":3436.962,"text":"副秘書長是不是好來我們請那個副秘書長過來"},{"start":3442.249,"end":3463.965,"text":"我們現在就只針對那個86條86條目前現在這樣子的那個規定因為它沒有明定是在那個同法院之內啊所以說操作上還有就是一般人看到這個法條的時候他會跟那個遠距訊問兩個會產生就是會有那個會有疑義啊就譬如說有人爭執以後有人爭執"},{"start":3465.066,"end":3488.135,"text":"就是當事人證人鑑定人甚至於被告可不可以在不同的那個法院內有沒有要求那個延伸法庭甚至於我們現在先不要講90條的這一個那個法庭那個公佈如果說以後有人要求說譬如說在那個高雄地院台北在開庭他要求在那個高雄地院去開了一個"},{"start":3491.452,"end":3504.68,"text":"把這些影像傳播到這邊來的時候那這都是一種變相的又是一種變相的法庭的公播那所以這一條就是說他應該就是沒有明定在同法院內這會是一個問題啊"},{"start":3506.841,"end":3527.076,"text":"對不起我先插一下我們就把焦點先說因為目前台灣民眾黨黨團所提案是針對當初司法院在討論法院組織法現行已經有延伸法庭這個事實基礎我們先確認現行的延伸法庭是沒有法律基礎的我應該沒說錯吧"},{"start":3530.379,"end":3555.837,"text":"現行的延伸法庭沒有法律基礎給他法律基礎應該是一件好事現在只是在法條文字上面你們有意見所以目前的文字如果說將開庭的聲音影像傳送至同法院之延伸法庭公開刑之加上同法院三個字請問司法院可不可以接受"},{"start":3559.119,"end":3570.25,"text":"文字上的是同法院內同法院內嗎傳送至同法院內傳送至同法院內之延伸法庭公開刑事"},{"start":3571.961,"end":3597.404,"text":"這樣司法院是不是就同意了但是另外一個問題就是說因為其實所謂的那個延伸法庭其實精準講事實上現在目前他所開放的就是旁聽席啊你不可能就是有兩區嘛法庭有兩區我就說啦你們有什麼建議現在就直接講因為包括延伸法庭我都是按照司法院之前討論的文字在你的嘛"},{"start":3598.164,"end":3621.104,"text":"這不是天上掉下來的吧那現在如果司法院覺得同法院之適當空間可以嗎延伸法庭四個字也不要了那你司法院主要有一個立場嘛你有意見我尊重那你具體文字的修正是什麼今天來協商就要準備好了嘛"},{"start":3621.963,"end":3639.531,"text":"要不然今天司法院打算協商來講空話嗎86條第二項司法院有沒有具體修正文字現在就可以說了就 呃 適當空間同法院內適當空間之旁聽席啊來記一下齁 那個議事人員記好"},{"start":3641.447,"end":3658.28,"text":"同法院適當空間之旁聽席是嗎同法院內同法院內適當空間之旁聽席是是嗎公開行之公開行之嘛好那個議事人員把它記下來第二個第三項准用的條文有沒有意見"},{"start":3660.899,"end":3676.514,"text":"第三項準用的條文有沒有意見如果有意見請具體指明準用哪一項有意見這部分沒有意見所以86條的部分我們是不是就剛剛依照司法院的修正建議通過可以嗎"},{"start":3681.001,"end":3691.576,"text":"請問各黨團的代表我們依照86條的規定就依照司法院剛剛文字修正意見通過請問各黨團代表是不是都同意可以齁"},{"start":3697.349,"end":3722.774,"text":"好 可以喔 好 謝謝那接下來在進入90條核心的條文之前我們來先看一下91條先看一下91條的規定91條目前現行法的規定有妨礙法庭秩序或其他不當行為審判長可以禁止其進入法庭或命其退出法庭必要時可以命勘管制必停時"},{"start":3724.034,"end":3739.212,"text":"這是第一項的規定那台灣民眾黨所提出的修正建議各個委員 司法院手上應該都有書面我們來看一下法庭開庭時 應保持肅靜不得有大聲交談鼓掌 吸菸 飲食 食品"},{"start":3740.985,"end":3760.905,"text":"攝影錄音錄影及其他妨礙法庭秩序或不當行為那第二個違反前項規定審判長可以命其停止該行為禁止其進入法庭或命其退出法庭必要時可以看管至開庭時其以攝影錄音錄影審判長得命其消除"},{"start":3762.73,"end":3775.976,"text":"攝影錄音錄影之內容前項處分不得聲明不符前三項的規定與審判長在法庭外執行職務時準用之針對九十一條的修正請問民主進步黨立法院黨團有沒有意見"},{"start":3796.773,"end":3809.281,"text":"先讓他們討論一下,台灣民眾黨黨團是你們提案的,所以你們贊成嗎?中國國民黨對於這樣的條文修正,不曉得羅委員?羅委員贊成嗎?那我們讓民主進步黨黨團的代表商量一下"},{"start":3814.096,"end":3831.229,"text":"主席現在講的是第一 91條第一項嘛是 其實有1 2 3項其實都念完啦 因為水泓你看一下你就知道了第一 他本來的第一項是把法律要件跟法律效果寫在一起我現在的寫法是第一項"},{"start":3832.65,"end":3845.803,"text":"寫你不可以做什麼事情然後呢 你如果做了什麼事情你做了那些事情可以發生什麼訴訟法上的效果寫在第二項也就是把現行的規定更具體化明確化"},{"start":3848.615,"end":3868.602,"text":"然後給法官在指揮訴訟的時候更清楚的法律授權基礎我是覺得第一項有一點畫蛇添足啦那個有妨礙法庭秩序或其他不當行為其實是很概括啦你現在是說把距離化就是說說話太大聲啦"},{"start":3870.182,"end":3884.811,"text":"怕補愛、吃婚禮、飲食這些其實都是在妨礙到整個法庭的秩序啦很明顯那也不用用到不當心話沒有啦 水泓我幫你報告一下啦這也是當初司法院自己的條文啦"},{"start":3886.171,"end":3901.863,"text":"我就不喜歡獵人之美嘛我意思是說對我來講這個真的是話捨天但是你要注意喔那個莊委員我跟您報告一下現在錄音錄語它的法律效果審判長可以把它除去掉在現行的條文裡沒有明文喔"},{"start":3903.404,"end":3932.149,"text":"你有看到嗎?那個是核心喔就是說你不可以偷入啦我如果抓到你偷入,我可以叫你把它給消除掉這個有法律授權不是規範更清楚嗎?明確化齁,把這幾樣放進來就代表說沒有啦,我老實講啦這個是給法官授權,如果司法院等一下表態不要我可以代表台灣民眾黨黨團直接說明這一條就不予修正了"},{"start":3934.63,"end":3956.918,"text":"這條是盲腸啦 那看你司法院這邊那就看司法院要不要啊那主席我可以請問一下民眾議員因為寫法的版本是你們寫的九十一條第一項你們想要明文表示這些行為你們認為是所謂不恰當嘛那可是剛剛瑞雄委員提醒是說如果比較廣泛性的寫法叫做妨礙法庭秩序者或其他不當行為我認為可不可以把第一項如果你們認為"},{"start":3958.439,"end":3960.702,"text":"我跟陳委員報告一下法律人在寫條文的時候絕對不會像出現剛剛你那種寫法啦"},{"start":3978.18,"end":3983.362,"text":"沒有 我的寫法是根據原來的版本不好意思 請你尊重主席的會議主持好不好你要問問題 我同意讓你問問題那我現在就要回答你的問題那你總要讓我回答完嗎"},{"start":3994.685,"end":4012.83,"text":"我就老實的跟你講法律人不會這樣寫條文第一個寫一個很抽象的概括第二項的法律效果突然出現說如果有攝影錄音錄影可以叫它消除你如果有第二項的法律效果第一項就要把它寫進去要不然這個條文的結構看起來就會"},{"start":4013.77,"end":4035.761,"text":"非常非常的怪異沒有關係我們尊重司法院的意見啦我剛也說了如果司法院認為這個是盲腸沒有必要要不予修正台灣民眾黨黨團也可以同意來請司法院表達看法主席如果可以就那個討論順序的話我們覺得比較不好意思現在是我在主持會議"},{"start":4037.441,"end":4056.469,"text":"我要先說真點你是來列席的我給你機會表達意見現在不是司法院在主持會議請司法院列席的代表尊重我的會議主持針對91條的修正請問司法院是同意還是反對認為沒有必要請司法院表達看法"},{"start":4058.962,"end":4076.563,"text":"列的話它是會比較周延那但是這邊所謂那個攝影的話就是我剛說了就是說因為你前面那個地方開放那種那個法庭可不可以那個攝影誰來攝影那如果說這邊的話就是比較周延的話它應該是禁止的是自行攝影啊"},{"start":4079.25,"end":4103.229,"text":"那我具體的講不得有大聲交談鼓掌吸菸飲食物品自行攝影錄音錄影及其他妨礙法庭秩序或不當行為也就是在攝影前面加自行兩個字司法院的立場是不是這樣那加自行這兩個字請問台灣民眾黨黨團是否同意同意請問盧委員是否同意請問莊委員是否同意"},{"start":4111.983,"end":4123.755,"text":"所以我們91條請議事人員記好91條修正的條文依照司法院的建議在攝影前面加上字型兩個字請問第二項的規定請問司法院同不同意"},{"start":4133.083,"end":4156.175,"text":"這個應該是必要時得命看管制必停時吧好 那個是別制 那個把它改成必停時那除了這個以外 司法院文字還有沒有其他的意見文字沒有文字沒有嘛 好 那第三項 第四項的規定有沒有意見"},{"start":4160.768,"end":4186.616,"text":"也沒有意見嘛好那所以針對第九十一條的規定我們就依照司法院修正建議的條文就依照司法院修正建議的條文通過好來我們再來看九十三條的規定請問司法院有沒有意見"},{"start":4195.609,"end":4207.647,"text":"那只是配合前面的修正啊93條的規定請問司法院有沒有意見意見好 93條的意見 照台灣民眾黨黨團提案通過"},{"start":4216.735,"end":4238.397,"text":"好那我們現在因為現在就是施行的日期第115條嘛以及大家所增值核心的條文第90條的規定那第90條的規定我們就一項來處理就一項來處理第一項的部分90條的規定第一項的部分"},{"start":4240.106,"end":4266.994,"text":"法院開庭時處法律另有規定外應語錄音必要時得語錄影針對第一項的規定因為本來的規定我們要提升規範密度把它移到我們剛剛已經通過了第九十一條的規定了那現在針對九十條台灣民眾黨立法所提出來的九十條的第一項請問司法院有沒有意見"},{"start":4269.056,"end":4271.657,"text":"法律省原則上我們應以適當的方式公開播送"},{"start":4286.667,"end":4309.235,"text":"但有妨礙國家安全公共秩序善良風俗或造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害之餘者可以裁定不予公開播送那這個部分剛剛三個黨團似乎是有共識了因為莊委員也代表民進黨黨團就法律省的部分沒有意見那就第二項的部分請問司法院有沒有意見"},{"start":4312.119,"end":4333.895,"text":"像那個主席跟各位委員報告這部分司法院還是有意見的因為就是說法律省他應該是就是沒有問題的應該是限於那個法律爭議啊就是就像現在我們的那個先訴法也有那個公開可是現在目前條文的設計他是整個那個概括的那個開放"},{"start":4335.154,"end":4357.762,"text":"那所以就是在過去我們開了這麼多次的那種法規諮詢會就是這些專家學者來就是提供了很多寶貴就是國外法上還有很多的那個就是最大的疑義還是在於說對於二次濫用在現行的這個草案裡面他完全沒有去做管制的相對的那個配套啊"},{"start":4358.542,"end":4376.854,"text":"那特別是我國目前對於這個數位管制的那個傳播呢是沒有那個管制機制的就是包括那個網際網路內容的管理還有數位平台的問責到現在都還沒有那個見證對不起我停一下因為你當你講的話連我都聽不懂的時候我就必須要打斷"},{"start":4377.975,"end":4398.337,"text":"你說我國現在關於數位網際網路都沒有管制就所何止?可不可以具體一點?我聽不懂啊你的意思是說譬如啦像現在我們在協商的時候是全程公開直播嘛是所以司法院的意思是說連我們這種直播都要數位網際網路要管制嗎?"},{"start":4399.699,"end":4406.468,"text":"是這個意思嗎所以你現在就不是抽象的指網際網絡有沒有管制的問題嗎你現在說的是只有司法權嗎所以跟一般的網際網絡沒有關係嗎"},{"start":4417.901,"end":4446.263,"text":"因為我怕到時候這個公開直播播送出去一直沒有講清楚會引發很大的誤會喔所以你們所講的是涉及到司法權的網際網絡的內容要限制是這樣嗎你的立場是什麼 理由是什麼要講清楚要不然你講抽象的東西如果連我都聽不懂的話我相信現在在看直播的人沒有人聽得懂您就所何止請說得更具體一點"},{"start":4447.199,"end":4468.291,"text":"就是因為這些公播即使是法律省它公播出去的影像一出去之後就沒辦法收回來了那現在就是可是這是一個司法權的一個運作就是說如果有人就是把它片斷的就是把它二次那個去再去不到那個使用的時候我目前那個草案跟目前我先停一下"},{"start":4469.292,"end":4491.441,"text":"目前憲法法庭的直播針對你剛剛所講的片段的二次的使用司法院頒布了什麼管制辦法剛剛你講的嘛因為如果問題的焦點是在於說所謂的二次使用那現在憲法法庭的引帶"},{"start":4492.93,"end":4510.711,"text":"二次使用的很多啊各大新聞媒體網路上面的YouTube內容非常的多啊如果有人變造偽造裡面的內容那當然他要負法律責任嘛那沒有變造偽造裡面的內容針對你剛剛所講的涉及司法權"},{"start":4511.832,"end":4522.627,"text":"公開播送二次使用針對憲法法庭目前的公開播送請問司法院訂了什麼樣子的規範可以讓本院在修這條的時候作為參考"},{"start":4527.185,"end":4554.963,"text":"那個在有關於憲法法庭現在目前公佈出去的這些東西就是說有被濫用的時候不管制這個問題要不要檢討這本來就是一個可以檢討的先提一下喔所以你是承認就憲法法庭的部分剛剛你所說的司法權已經公開播送出去二次使用的管制司法院也承認目前司法院針對這個所謂的二次使用等等你們自己也沒有任何的規範嘛對不對"},{"start":4557.737,"end":4560.229,"text":"剛剛你說的就是這個意思嗎也沒有任何的規範嗎 是嗎"},{"start":4562.85,"end":4587.515,"text":"目前是沒有好 目前沒有這樣的規範那顯然這個是一個真的議題還是一個假的議題我相信每個立法委員跟台灣每一個公民大家都可以理解剛剛你們所提出來的argument它的有效性的設成範圍幾乎是趨近於零我講的比較文言一點但我相信大家都聽得懂"},{"start":4588.78,"end":4607.734,"text":"針對法律審的部分 司法院還有什麼其他的意見因為目前那個法律審的辯論裡面他其實不是只有單純的那個法律爭議的問題的辯論他有很多像那個死刑辯論裡面因為像憲判8也說了就是有關於那個死刑"},{"start":4608.234,"end":4636.359,"text":"他要經過在第三審要經過那個辯論那所以說這一些那個辯論裡面他其實會有很多那個事實認定還有一些那個個資的這一些那個情況那所以就是說這個立法他並不是由個案去審酌而是採了一個那個原則公開這個立法那但是在但書的部分他排除範圍其實是非常少的所以這個部分我們認為是這個就但書的部分啊"},{"start":4637.319,"end":4663.332,"text":"司法院有主張要怎麼樣擴張嗎因為你剛剛所講的是你擔心但書的部分嘛剛剛你講的是死刑辯論可能會牽涉到事實可能會牽涉到隱私嘛講了一堆可能嘛上一次司法院來找我的時候我有公開請教過你們嘛最高法院一年行多少件延遲辯論2024年行了多少件延遲辯論"},{"start":4666.952,"end":4692.963,"text":"請司法院回答最高法院2024年行了多少延遲辯論最高法院應該是十件左右十件嘛一年十件一年十件的延遲辯論我想應該當然啦很多人民會很好奇很多人民會很好奇很多法律人甚至會更好奇依照民事訴訟法474條的規定"},{"start":4696.92,"end":4723.352,"text":"第三審上訴原則上陰形言詞辯論不必要者不在此限大家不懂的事情是立法者已經告訴我國最高法院第三審民事訴訟陰形言詞辯論但不必要者不在此限但我們的最高法院是把立法者講的話當耳邊風因為對最高法院來講"},{"start":4724.844,"end":4750.8,"text":"每一年兩三千件的案子全部都是單書全部都不必要原則上因行延遲辯論的一年不到十件那當然我們的立法院自己也要檢討為什麼立法者在2003年的時候建構所謂金字塔型的訴訟制度的修法當中"},{"start":4752.165,"end":4776.661,"text":"要求第三審因行延遲辯論我們最高法院的法官竟然可以無視於立法院的屆命我就是不開延遲辯論請問你要怎麼樣那當然這個是本院要重新去檢討的事項那但是我們今天回到問題的真點我們現在針對90條的項法律審"},{"start":4781.519,"end":4809.192,"text":"有關於錄音錄影的公開播送每一年民情案件加起來十件十件那我想對於最高法院所會造成的負擔應該是如果要把這個稱為負擔恐怕都有點太沉重那沒有關係對於最高法院的負擔恐怕是相當輕微的"},{"start":4811.405,"end":4830.052,"text":"那現在呢 司法院是認為說 但書的規定範圍太窄因為我有但書例外的規定嘛涉及到國家安全公共秩序善良風俗或造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害之餘可以裁定不要公開播送"},{"start":4831.585,"end":4857.239,"text":"那我要提醒司法院的事情是請對照法院組織法86條的規定86條在公開主義跟例外的不公開主義的時候在例外不公開主義是用三個非常概括的事由授權法院得不刑公開審理包括了國家安全、公共秩序、善良風俗只有這三個喔這三個要件都非常的抽象喔"},{"start":4858.814,"end":4885.412,"text":"好那回到我們這邊90條第二項但書的規定90條第二項但書的規定妨礙國家安全公共秩序善良風俗這個不行公開審理的當然就不適合公開播送那進一步考慮到會造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害可以裁定不公開那司法院如果認為90條第二項的但書設成範圍還是太窄"},{"start":4888.775,"end":4890.238,"text":"請問司法院有沒有什麼具體的建議 請"},{"start":4895.737,"end":4918.729,"text":"那個委員就那個就那個二次濫用部分那個委員那邊剛主席那邊已經有做了就是說我剛二次濫用已經說過了嘛你們剛剛自己都承認你們針對憲法法庭公開播送的二次濫用目前司法院的規範是零嗎可是憲法法庭他所辯論的是屬於憲政層次的那個問題那個就是說他需要跟"},{"start":4919.569,"end":4944.683,"text":"對啊那個憲法法庭在進行死刑違不違憲的辯論的時候我也有看啊你確定裡面都只有抽象的法律問題沒有個案嗎你如果要欺騙一般的社會大眾大家沒看過你或許可以這樣講我會建議司法院的官員回去看一下憲法法庭死刑辯論的時候有沒有講到個案沒有講到個案他們在審什麼當然有講到個案嘛"},{"start":4947.113,"end":4972.361,"text":"就是這些人他們提起憲法訴願進一步提升到法規範審查全部都克服到個案怎麼會沒有個案憲法法庭在進行死刑違不違憲的辯論的時候怎麼會沒有提到個案整場延遲辯論我都仔細聆聽過了這樣子的區別恐怕不是一個有效性的區別"},{"start":4974.861,"end":5002.566,"text":"所以就單書的部分司法院有沒有意見司法院是認為說比較適當的他是應該是就是從那個立法例不是一剛開始的時候原則用概括的全部通通都開放而是應該就是說在一定的條件底下由那個法院就個案去審酌那這個也是當時我們在那個法規諮詢會的時候大部分專家的意見那那個司法院有建議的條文嗎"},{"start":5009.46,"end":5023.17,"text":"司法院有建議的條文嗎請回答司法院有建議的條文嗎不好意思主席在請教司法院副秘書長請問司法院有建議的條文嗎有還是沒有"},{"start":5026.207,"end":5052.615,"text":"司法院第一個立場是希望不要訂我瞭解先停一下啦司法院的立場我瞭解但是因為剛剛副秘書長跟大家講說你們希望是在一定的前提要件下再公開所以我再進一步的請教你你剛剛所表達的立場你們有沒有建議的條文沒有就沒有沒有關係啊"},{"start":5053.908,"end":5075.048,"text":"我沒有逼你一定要申條文出來因為現在全部都在給你們機會讓你們拿條文出來所以司法院有沒有建議的條文沒有 你就說我反對就好了主席 這條我這樣我這樣看 話不要這樣用這種片面式"},{"start":5076.676,"end":5096.156,"text":"我在講法律的部分但現在司法院講的是沒有那種單純法律你構成要件事實要含設到法律到底有沒有構成的時候一定會去講到事實啦這個司法院的擔憂我知道可是呢我倒會覺得啦這個司法院這邊也考慮看看啦"},{"start":5097.057,"end":5120.967,"text":"因為畢竟修正的條文裡面是在跟你講說這個如果說這個一個案件細數到最高法院去的時候如果是在一個法律審的時候你涉及到有妨礙國家安全、公共秩序、善良風俗或造成個人生命身體隱私、隱厭秘密重大損害治癒者你本來就可以裁定不予公開的做一個播送"},{"start":5121.84,"end":5146.254,"text":"那一個案子你假設說你受命拿到這個案子以後你不可能說整個事實都不知道嘛你這個案子到底會不會涉及到這個涵澀的過程有沒有事實的公開會影響到營業秘密或者影響到國家安全如果會的話其實在法院這一關馬上就把它給撥掉啦"},{"start":5147.267,"end":5175.047,"text":"我是這樣看私律到底有沒有周延我就就較於我們的司法院啊不然我的立場很一致啊立場很一致啊你單純法律審我沒有意見嘛可是問題是說法律跟事實審一定混淆在一起嘛沒有一個案件裡面只在講法律的嘛一定是某一個行為某一個事實要含涉到立法者所規定的過程要件裡面到底有沒有該當嘛該當裡面就該判什麼就是什麼嘛"},{"start":5175.467,"end":5185.623,"text":"所以這個過程裡面會涉及到事實那這個事實裡面到底會不會有國家安全啊有沒有營業秘密啊或者是有人格權啊這一些我是認為啦我是認為啦我就比較認為說因為如果"},{"start":5187.771,"end":5207.584,"text":"法官看到這樣的情況你本來就可以裁定不允許啦應該就有一個防避或者說踩煞車的權利還是指揮訴訟還是在法官的手上啊我不知道這樣設計了針對法律省的部分我們司法院的疑慮還是甚麼啦聽聽看那個莊委員的請教不曉得司法院有沒有要回應"},{"start":5220.253,"end":5245.116,"text":"因為這個地方他是用那個但書排除可是這邊都還限於像隱私還有那個秘密有沒有他還要在那個營業的秘密啊只限於營業秘密而且要造成重大那個損害所以說這個但書限的那個條件非常的那個窄所以我才一直問你們啊你但書覺得太窄你有沒有建議的條文要拉寬一點啊"},{"start":5246.499,"end":5257.745,"text":"我主席所表達的善意是一而再再而三沒有關係啦讓司法院回去思考一下今天在場"},{"start":5259.008,"end":5282.868,"text":"包括了民進黨黨團的代表莊惠玄委員雖然我跟他意見不太一樣有的時候他也常常討侃我但是莊委員的意見我也是很尊重他也都表達了就法律省他基本上面的看法但我們也是很善意如果這樣的但書司法院覺得還是過載看要不要回去考慮一下"},{"start":5283.689,"end":5304.784,"text":"該不要回去考慮一下提出你們建議修正的條文因為我必須要老實說第90條的部分各個黨派的立法委員有各個黨派不同的政治立場我們都尊重在立法院本來就這樣"},{"start":5306.007,"end":5331.524,"text":"在立法院本來就這樣很少有什麼條文是大家都點頭通過的因為有的時候我們點頭通過的東西到法院實際上面操作變怎麼樣有的時候也不是立法者預測的到像我們通過的有關於打詐的法案打詐的法案大概我們也很難預想到我們的大法庭竟然會解釋成那個樣子"},{"start":5333.739,"end":5350.19,"text":"那幾次成那個樣子就搞得立法院很累現在打詐的法案又要重新的在推動修無法因為可能當初在立法的過程當中三個黨團大家都同意結果到法院去解釋的時候造成縱放輕重"},{"start":5352.712,"end":5370.405,"text":"這些詐騙集團的法律後果大家看到大法庭的裁定看了也都很傻眼那只能逼著我們的立法者要更辛苦一點再重新的再修一次法律但這個都沒有關係這個都是過程今天針對這個法案"},{"start":5372.864,"end":5398.353,"text":"我們在一個公開透明的情況之下來進行直播各個黨團的代表都充分的表達大家的看法那都各自為自己的立場來加以負責任那但是也不是完全沒有收穫因為我們其中限制的標點是第一個第90條是不可能有共識那因為最後一條跟90條是連動的"},{"start":5399.873,"end":5424.684,"text":"所以最後一條也不會有共識那但是最起碼五條裡面我們有三條是有共識的那對於這樣子的一個協商代表了他還是存在他的意義那所以是不是請那個議事同仁把那個協商的結論可以印出來主席先宣告一下第一個第86條第91條均照協商內容通過如復見"},{"start":5428.956,"end":5447.366,"text":"第二個第90條及第115條均保留送院會處理第三個第93條照案通過如果大家都同意的話是不是可以請各黨團的代表把協商的結論稍微簽一下謝謝大家"},{"start":5478.73,"end":5484.636,"text":"市長那個協商結論你看一下,我協商結論都照你的意思出力"},{"start":5535.916,"end":5537.557,"text":"哈囉哈囉是不是都簽完了"},{"start":5564.764,"end":5588.434,"text":"沒有啦,你們可以發通知給院長,我沒意見,我完全按照議事規則啦你們可以...你們民進黨東團可以發請求給院長,這個是你們的權利嘛,我沒意見啦可是你這邊簽希望我們直接送院會處理?這個是我主席可以決定的事情,對那你們可以發函請院長協商,立法院職權刑事法本來就這樣規定啦"},{"start":5600.903,"end":5621.889,"text":"院長協商依照立法院職權刑事法怎麼規定各位大委員看一下條文就知道了可以了嗎"},{"start":5624.949,"end":5630.814,"text":"沒有關係啊,都尊重好來把東西給我"},{"start":5657.009,"end":5664.116,"text":"你們的民進黨我說不知道,老科沒錢就沒剩沒有啦,我很小閒的,我能騎腳的錢就剩啦"},{"start":5673.769,"end":5698.478,"text":"好來謝謝喔那我們今天的協商非常感動有協商結論第86條90條均照協商內容通過如復見第90條及115條均保留送院會處理第93條照案通過好我們今天的協商非常感謝各位黨團的代表司法院以及法務部列席的官員們非常感謝大家的參與我們今天的協商到此結束謝謝"},{"start":5702.995,"end":5708.234,"text":"響鐘"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2025062473","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"162886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5065266f91899adc39d8be1699f4405fe9f4ee86841c083e3aad3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:13:36 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陳副主席長"},{"start":16.365,"end":40.325,"text":"委員好副主席因為今天這個監察院辦理研討會的經費不敷審查的案子行政院含的說明內容為什麼是依據預算法第22條第二項規定來辦理為什麼不是依據預算法第70條的規定來辦理那我請副主席你做說明"},{"start":40.985,"end":64.077,"text":"是 為了垂詢的事項我在這裡做個報告就是說因為監察院今天所提的它的源頭是因為在立法院預算審議的時候是被刪減的所以我們預算法的規定刪減以後就可以動用預備金是不是那就是說我們預算法的規定它有分前段跟後段前段就基於尊重"},{"start":65.057,"end":93.699,"text":"立法院預算的審議所以規定他不能動之第二預備金但是他後段是就是說如果是原來刪減的立法院有同意的話那他就可以動之第二預備金吳審議長我請教你預算法第22條第二項內容是立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額不得動之預備金但法定經費或立法院同意者"},{"start":94.42,"end":105.992,"text":"不在此限那我請問戶主記長今天這個審查案的經費到底是不是法定的經費是不是就是說他是"},{"start":107.014,"end":128.761,"text":"法定經費或經立法院同意的所以他是屬於或後面的立法院同意如果是法定經費換為基於維持法定機關正常運作以及執行法定職務之經費如果停止執行會造成影響整個機關的存續"},{"start":131.226,"end":137.631,"text":"那麼應該可以動資預備金不需要審查反之啊如果不是法定經費的範圍那請問因為目前齁"},{"start":141.994,"end":170.701,"text":"整個這個憲法法庭啊已經受理監察院所提的114年中央政府總預算案總關於刪減監察院稅出預算進行違憲的審查那我請問副主席長你認為立法院適合對憲法法庭違憲審查中的案件進行實質的審查嗎現在在憲法法庭喔"},{"start":172.697,"end":176.421,"text":"本案在立法院進行審查 經過三讀決議"},{"start":192.6,"end":207.815,"text":"如果又是維持原決議也就是不通過動資預備金那麼行政院監察院到底要怎麼做難道要再呼籲要提釋憲法法庭的審查嗎你告訴我"},{"start":210.146,"end":231.816,"text":"我們現在就是依預算法的這個規定來請求原來三檢的大院看能不能同意但是現在在憲法法庭啊還沒有到最後的決定啊對不對但是如果一切都要等於是法庭如果憲法法庭違憲審查結論和立法院動用預備金審查不同的結果的時候那應該要聽誰的對不對"},{"start":235.257,"end":252.623,"text":"這樣你了解吧憲法法庭到最後裁定的結果跟我們現在要是通過的背道而馳那到底要聽誰的跟委員報告因為現在我們已經在執行當中了如果一切都需要等到憲法法庭可能很多的對 但是現在還在那裡啊那個護審計長"},{"start":254.468,"end":272.12,"text":"副主席長 預算法第22條第二項和第三項增列行之有年但是條約裡面認識用法應該要有所依據而不是只照字面意義就認為有所本114年總預算在3月21號總統已經公布實行"},{"start":276.663,"end":299.355,"text":"在憲法法庭違憲審查結果還沒有出來前目前是屬於法定預算我請問副主席長今天的審查案要動之第二一倍金主計總數是依據哪種實質的條件認為符合第二項符合第二一倍金的必要動之你告訴我"},{"start":300.115,"end":326.457,"text":"我們就是因為當時認為三檢以後自然來行那因為二十二條就賦予說如果三檢的立法院同意可以動資第二預備金所以就依這個法所規範的程序來提出申請其次主計那個副主計長請問你動資第二預備金是不是需要符合華麗明確性的原則才能讓預備金動資釋出有名是不是"},{"start":327.831,"end":351.833,"text":"我覺得這個條文主要還是在於說立法院刪減了那如果因為情勢變跟立法院同意他動之所以他概念上就是原來刪減的這個大院他是如果同意他還是可以動之還是只要機關需要宋教立法院同意就可以是這樣嗎沒有要經立法院同意"},{"start":352.677,"end":363.407,"text":"那再其次預算法第70條對第二預備金動資就已經明文規定我請問副主席講行政院以預算法第22條第二項為依據難道預算法第70條形容據文嗎"},{"start":368.432,"end":384.41,"text":"70條喔 可以護士不看嗎不是 70條是行政院同意動之送立法院備查那22條大院監督的強度比較強要經立法院同意那個今天喔 我是認為啦 主計長不敢來喔"},{"start":385.211,"end":407.683,"text":"要你出來這個其實我們就打個問號啦你照理講陳淑芝主計長應該要來面對不是不是對不對不是不敢來是剛好有另外沒有那回事啦基本上我們就是依法來提出申請主計為主對不對我時間到了我不就不耽擱啦我認為你要審慎啦好請委員支持謝謝是謝謝德湖委員"},{"start":413.806,"end":416.032,"text":"接着我们请吴秉瑞委员质询"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":51,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時13分）謝謝主席，請陳副主計長。"],["主席：請陳副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["林委員德福：副主計長，今天要審查監察院辦理研討會所需經費不敷的案子，但行政院函的說明內容為什麼是依據預算法第二十二條第二項規定來辦理，而不是依據預算法第七十條規定來辦理？我請副主計長做說明。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，委員垂詢的事項我在這裡做個報告。因為監察院今天所提的，其源頭是因為在立法院預算審議的時候被刪減了，所以我們依據預算法的規定，它為了……"],["林委員德福：刪減以後就可以動用預備金，是不是？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們預算法的規定有分前段跟後段，前段就是基於尊重立法院預算的審議，所以規定它不能動支第二預備金，但後段如果是原來刪減的，立法院有同意的話，就可以動支第二預備金。"],["林委員德福：好，副主計長，我請教你，預算法第二十二條第二項內容是「立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額，不得動支預備金。但法定經費或經立法院同意者，不在此限。」我要請問副主計長，今天這個審查案的經費到底是不是法定經費？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：它是法定經費或經立法院同意者，所以它是屬於後面「或經立法院同意」的部分。"],["林委員德福：如果是法定經費範圍，基於維持法定機關正常運作以及執行法定職務之經費，如果停止執行會影響整個機關的存續，那麼應該可以動支預備金，不需要審查。反之，如果不是法定經費的範圍，請問，因為目前整個憲法法庭已經受理監察院所提的114年中央政府總預算案中關於刪減監察院歲出預算進行違憲的審查，請問副主計長，你認為立法院適合對憲法法庭違憲審查中的案件進行實質審查嗎？現在案件在憲法法庭喔！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，因為去釋憲那個是釋憲的那個……"],["林委員德福：如果釋憲出來的最後結果不一樣呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：但是現在我們已經到了預算執行的階段，眼看9月就要辦理了……"],["林委員德福：但是還沒有處理啊！本案在立法院進行審查，經過三讀決議，如果又是維持原決議，也就是不通過動支預備金，那麼行政院、監察院到底要怎麼做？難道要再覆議，要提釋憲、請憲法法庭審查嗎？你告訴我。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，我們現在就是依預算法的規定來請求原來刪減的，大院看能不能同意來動支……"],["林委員德福：但是現在在憲法法庭，還沒有到最後的決定啊，對不對？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：但是如果一切都要等到憲法法庭……"],["林委員德福：其次，如果憲法法庭違憲審查結論和立法院動用預備金審查的結果不同的時候，那應該要聽誰的？這樣你了解吧？憲法法庭到最後裁定的結果要是跟我們現在要通過的背道而馳，到底要聽誰的？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，因為現在我們已經在執行當中了，如果一切都需要等到憲法法庭，可能很多的……"],["林委員德福：對，但是現在還在那裡啊！副主計長，預算法第二十二條第二項和第三項增列已行之有年，但是條約裡面認事用法應該要有所依據，而不是只照字面意義就認為有所本。114年總預算已經在3月21日總統公布施行，在憲法法庭違憲審查結果還沒有出來前，目前是屬於法定預算，請問副主計長，今天的審查案要動支第二預備金，主計總處是依據哪種實質的條件認為符合第二預備金的必要動支？你告訴我。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們當時就認為刪減以後窒礙難行，因為第二十二條賦予，如果刪減的部分經立法院同意，可以動支第二預備金，所以就依這個法所規範的程序提出申請。"],["林委員德福：其次，請問副主計長，動支第二預備金是不是需要符合法律明確性的原則，才能讓預備金動支師出有名？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：這個條文主要還是在於立法院刪減了，如果因為情事變更，立法院同意動支，所以概念上就是原來刪減的這個部分，如果大院同意，他還是可以動支。"],["林委員德福：還是只要機關需要，送交立法院同意就可以？是這樣嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：沒有，要經立法院同意。"],["林委員德福：再其次，預算法第七十條對第二預備金動支已經有明文規定，請問副主計長，行政院以預算法第二十二條第二項為依據，難道預算法第七十條形同具文嗎？第七十條可以忽視不看嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：不是，第七十條是規定行政院同意動支，送立法院備查；第二十二條則是大院監督的強度比較強，要經立法院同意。"],["林委員德福：我認為今天主計長不敢來，要你出來，我們其實就打個問號了。照理講，陳淑姿主計長應該要來面對，對不對？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：不是！不是不敢來，是剛好有另外……就是說……"],["林委員德福：沒有那回事！要錢卻不來！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：基本上，我們就是依法提出申請。"],["林委員德福：而且今天又是主計為主，對不對？我的時間到了，我就不耽擱。我認為你要審慎，謝謝。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：請委員支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝德福委員。","接著請吳秉叡委員質詢。副主計長，主計長身體不舒服，你可以代為說明。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db506f534b8cb002d21eb8be1699f4405fe9f6565fd374fb03ffd8d85ac98af4f42af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:09:25 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將這樣一個國家治理的核心放進了常設審裁的一個功能也就是在將維他命這樣一個條約的概念裡面做一個法制性的一個處理那來推行歷史的不育跟調查還有補償那這些制度就具有一些法律效力"},{"start":154.398,"end":173.294,"text":"所以紐西蘭的情況是這樣所以在政府部門跟原住民長期對話當中呢那也透過這個平台就更為穩定也比較永續那這個部分可以提供我們在制度深化跟權力保障上的一個參考那你們今年呢是監察院是主辦"},{"start":174.395,"end":203.975,"text":"主辦國那我們議程設計應該第一我們看名字那個紐澳是很重要的這個帶領者那我們議程當然要針對各地區國家的這個制度優勢跟政策實踐那我這邊是希望能夠將原住民族人權還有在歷史正義族群平等這些主題也能夠納入一個討論的主軸就比較不會變成一個像形式會議流程感覺有點像大拜拜這樣子"},{"start":205.096,"end":219.576,"text":"所以我希望藉這個機會能夠有機會邀請我剛才其實前面講的澳洲那聯邦原民事務相關的這個官員那另外紐西蘭因為這個Watani的Tribunal有入法"},{"start":220.097,"end":243.389,"text":"所以他的現任或卸任的委員如果有機會來的話成員有機會來的話那這樣子其實在具有國際聲望的這一些人來跟我們做一些討論甚至太平洋原民治理食物的人能夠一起來討論原住民族人權在當地跟我們國家的一個變化那這樣我們就可以就不同的結構"},{"start":244.229,"end":272.816,"text":"不同的觀點來討論出更多的更寬廣的一個對話所以這些對象我是從你們的這個已經規劃的會議主題裡面看起來可能是比較匱乏的所以我就很直接的希望而且今年我們是主辦國是比較能夠主導這個議程跟內容還有成員所以我還是希望說有這個機會的話不知道這個部分有沒有可能就我剛才講的這幾個面向"},{"start":275.517,"end":299.606,"text":"謝謝委員的提議我們的議程雖然是目前是佔框定是這樣子可是剛剛委員提到的澳洲跟紐西蘭它的特殊性其實是有關於原住民族的人權跟他的tribunal的那部分因為我們要邀請澳洲或者紐西蘭的外賓或者是講者來"},{"start":301.427,"end":329.744,"text":"來台灣來參與這樣子的國際會議其實我們的經費是不是非常的不是非常的透明應該你們會覺得很窘迫有的東西就看你怎麼辦然後怎麼去溝通跟聯繫所以是不是在可以的狀況下你們是不是還是可以朝這樣一個方向來走那因為你看你們標題這個紐澳是這麼重要的國家而且你說太平洋相關的其實很多南島語族的島語我相信你們可能也有邀到相關"},{"start":330.785,"end":344.901,"text":"一些重要的這個成員那這個部分如果時間還可以是不是可以透過這個機會也讓大家知道說我們在人權的這個努力上事實上可能國際社會也有沒有看到的這個部分所以是不是"},{"start":346.042,"end":372.203,"text":"另外就是April是會員大會所以原則上太平洋的島國有六個可是就是我們目前也是只有三個國家願意來出席我們還在努力中然後那至於議題的部分因為這個這次的主軸還是監察就是監察室所以委員所提示的那部分呢我們會努力研究然後"},{"start":372.824,"end":395.79,"text":"那就請你放進這個考量當中我不知道你們那三個session是打算用什麼樣子的方式那當然專題演講就比較沒有空間但是session如果有分的話或許還有機會來做一些置放謝謝委員的建議所以在內容上我想主席處應該這邊也是支持的嘛那在內容上像我國在這幾年原住民族基本法的立法歷程"},{"start":396.81,"end":413.645,"text":"還有政策架構跟實際的實施困境那甚至在監察院有一些資料我們也是會參考的那我們很希望這個部分能夠被國際所周知所以這是今天本席提出來很重要的一個要點那可以的情況真的請你們多加考量好嗎"},{"start":414.426,"end":416.927,"text":"羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員不在林思明 林思明 林思明委員不在今日登記花園委員均已詢答完畢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":932,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時9分）主席、府院同仁，大家好。請行政院主計總處陳副主計長、王代理秘書長以及人權委員會的執秘。"],["主席：請副主計長、王代理秘書長及鄒執行秘書。"],["林委員倩綺：大家好。今天我們在這邊是針對監察院在2025年要舉辦第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研討會的案子，因為你們是動用二備金，我想藉這個機會來探討一下，也做一些建議。因為這次舉辦的這個主題裡面很清楚地談到澳紐，所以本席想在這邊跟你們探討一下這個核心的議題。有關澳紐跟太平洋諸國的人權和歷史正義，我們希望能夠透過這個機會，也讓原住民的區塊被了解，但是我看到你們今天送的資料，議程大概有一些排定，經費也有一些分配了，所以就我以下的建議，你們看看在可以的空間裡面，是不是有機會在這一次做一些調整？","我先講一下澳紐的經驗，澳洲在2023年原住民族之聲要入憲的全國公投雖然沒有通過，但是這個過程當中展現的制度成熟跟全民對於原住民參與憲政體制的高度熱烈討論，其實是有很大的價值。他們建立獨立的原住民族諮詢機構，保障對國會法案提出意見的制度設計，也因此我們看到人權治理的走向越來越先進。第二個部分是紐西蘭，紐西蘭在懷唐伊條約，就是Waitangi Tribunal，將這樣的國家治理核心放進了常設審裁功能，也就是將Waitangi條約這樣的概念做一個法制性的處理，推行歷史不義調查還有補償，這些制度就具有一些法律效力，所以紐西蘭的情況是這樣，在政府部門跟原住民長期對話當中，也透過這個平臺更為穩定，也比較永續，這個部分可以提供我們在制度深化跟權利保障上的參考。","今年我們是主辦國，監察院的議程設計應該：第一、我們看名字，紐澳是很重要的帶領者，議程當然要針對各地區國家的制度優勢跟政策實踐，我希望能夠將原住民族人權還有歷史正義、族群平等這些主題，也能夠納入討論的主軸，比較不會變成像形式會議的流程，感覺有點像大拜拜。我希望藉這個機會能夠邀請我剛才前面講的澳洲聯邦原民事務相關的官員。另外，因為紐西蘭有將Waitangi 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在尤其現在極端性的氣候"},{"start":163.174,"end":179.26,"text":"那麼很可能會有一些災害或者有一些緊急性的政務支出所以呢把它編列到80億元但是呢今天增加二倍金不是讓你來做大罷免的嗎"},{"start":180.16,"end":204.735,"text":"對不對你這大罷免花國家起碼我像這次我剛說12億他可能少一點因為罷免的委員不如之前想要罷的這麼多但是呢也將近10億元那看起來他一定要用二倍金所以他現在只是來跟你們講說他們要動用二倍金只是呢他沒有確切的金額而已所以我在這邊要特別說啦"},{"start":206.696,"end":226.506,"text":"就是我們今天所有的這個預算特別是這個二倍金的部分當然我們有災損金災害準備金我們也有二倍金二倍金的提高是為了讓我們行政院有一些緊急性的政務支出或者是這些災損"},{"start":228.467,"end":256.113,"text":"能夠或者是我們今天要辦理這些國際的研討會讓你們來做這些事情而不是讓你們來浪費納稅人的錢來搞大罷免來搞政治鬥爭我想這一點一定要核心序明因為當時我們也是在整個二倍金的這個預算的時候那大家也都都是支持的好那另外想請教一下那個那個代理秘書長"},{"start":257.193,"end":279.375,"text":"因為之前啊這個監察院有所謂的用公務車的爭議那你們現在說要移送這個紀律委員會請問一下紀律委員會召開了嗎預定是七月份召開七月份因為現在還沒有到七月七月一號呢還是七月三十一號呢七月上旬"},{"start":280.436,"end":308.992,"text":"那為什麼要等到這麼久跟委員說明就是在地理委員會在開會之前那它其實是一開始是個人民書狀有兩位人民來監察院提告類似陳情一個就是黃國昌委員辦公室這邊沒有沒有因為我知道已經有人去有人去告發那你們也說本來不做嘛本來說我們沒有辦法自己調查自己大家覺得很奇怪"},{"start":309.332,"end":335.125,"text":"沒有沒有所以你們怎麼胡作非為都沒有辦法調查自己但是現在說既然要啟動調查但是為什麼要這麼久呢因為事實上這個事件發生在五月底然後你們要事隔一個多月才來開這種紀律委員會我必須要講啦因為這件事情已經在社會觀感上是很差的"},{"start":336.165,"end":363.581,"text":"然後你們過了這麼久的時間雖然呢 這個秘書長 李靜怡秘書長她辭職下台但是其他被指控的委員都還在任上那你們也應該趕快自清啦我真的還是希望說因為你們現在告訴我們七月七月召開什麼時候 因為七月還沒有到啊是不是你們應該盡快的把紀律委員會召開到底你們對外的說明是什麼"},{"start":364.602,"end":371.259,"text":"趕快能夠對外有一個說法對外面一個交代能夠盡早 可以嗎是 好"},{"start":372.332,"end":399.709,"text":"可以齁 那可以提前吧不要再等到說你們還要派黃照期日嗎因為基於委員會設置辦法要三分之二委員的出席才可以開會那因為雖然我們沒有預算可是監委的相關的職權不管是調查 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有請 謝謝"},{"start":6.858,"end":29.755,"text":"委員好秘書長好我們監察院其實也是民眾非常高度期待的機關因為監察院是我國憲法賦予最高的監察機關所以它理應是政府失能官員失職的時候人民最可以依賴的著目鳥"},{"start":30.916,"end":50.79,"text":"但是很可惜我們看到的是近幾年來這隻著墓鳥它著墓的這個堅繪似乎失去了也失去了勇氣更失去了監察院應有的獨立性跟效率這是民眾普遍的觀感"},{"start":51.63,"end":66.275,"text":"所以現在的監察院讓民眾感覺不再是勇於皆必的制度守護人而且更像是關在金籠子裡的一隻寵物鳥著墓鳥不應該是寵物鳥"},{"start":68.212,"end":86.902,"text":"所以我不知道秘書長你們面對社會的期待跟很多的批評聲浪監察院內部有沒有檢討我們是不是應該要成為人民值得信賴的監察機關你等一下再回覆所以"},{"start":88.613,"end":113.608,"text":"監察權呢我們都認為不能只是做做樣子寫寫故事交交報告更不會是行政機關韓文的這個猶猜所以人民要的是真正的制衡的權利確保改革落地的憲政機關所以我們看到本席掌握了一些資料就是我們監察院從108年以來啊監察院結"},{"start":119.039,"end":148.386,"text":"半截的重大案件明顯下滑然後呢整體案件量持續的減少那我們覺得這不是個案這個是結構性的退縮和怠惰所以調查報告感覺充其量只是個記錄者但監察院的職責應該是糾舉者如果糾舉失職官員都做不到那我們監察機關的存在意義是什麼"},{"start":150.14,"end":164.291,"text":"為什麼我們看到很多社會上民怨的事件 重大官員的為師案件都是媒體或立法院揭露在先 監察院始終慢半拍 而且不了了之"},{"start":165.191,"end":188.718,"text":"所以面對這樣的一個失職案件彈劾率極低調查時間又冗長社會觀感極差的情況下部分的監察委員反倒積極的參與國際出訪做這個形象工程跟在國內的調查績效形成了非常大的一個反差所以"},{"start":189.997,"end":201.798,"text":"人民的陳情申冤案不好好做卻花大筆的公帑搞國際拜會這不是監察制度的初衷是公器私用的歪風所以"},{"start":203.82,"end":221.352,"text":"我們主張監察院要重新定位它不能是裝飾民主的機構必須真正落實憲政制衡的力量所以請秘書長回應你是否支持建立監察權績效公開的評鑑制度是或否"},{"start":223.474,"end":239.313,"text":"請委員讓我說明一下這有關於這個案件的這樣子委員這樣分類其實是我們調查案件注意事項第五點的所謂的一般案件是要求三個月要結案重大案件是六個月特殊重大是一年其實特殊重大是持續的"},{"start":240.054,"end":261.898,"text":"持續的增加比第五屆比起來是有四倍以上的增加如果案件真的有增加我們要問是增加的那你到底有沒有改善你的案件增加你案件我又不看表面是不是有改善是不是有具體的讓民眾感受到大家的觀感都是如此就是我們提出來的調查報告都會對外公開沒關係那你是否支持監察"},{"start":268.579,"end":275.022,"text":"是否支持重啟監委評鑑機制呢?接受國會或民間的評分監督是否支持?更為說明監委是依據法律獨立行使職權"},{"start":289.609,"end":312.97,"text":"那至於說那這個只是一個評鑑機制那要看是什麼樣的一個組織或者機構或者是評鑑的標準最後最後那其實有些因為它是依據法律獨立行使支持我知道你支持啦那是否願意檢討近年低落的辦案成效提出具體的改進報告跟委員說明我們不認為我們的辦案成效有低落"},{"start":315.572,"end":324.376,"text":"而且我們人民陳情案件第六屆到現在為止有七萬七千多件那其實從八十八年一直到五月總共調查報告是九千多件沒有辦法真正糾舉彈劾而且很多公務人員重大疏失你們都沒有辦法進行整個的"},{"start":338.426,"end":361.556,"text":"彈劾案彈劾人數跟五屆比起來也都是增加的我不好提出個案啦我不提出這些社會上重大案件其實民眾都知道 翻翻你去google或者是新聞查一查都知道其實執行情況都不佳啦很多民眾的陳情以及甚至這個社會上的重大案件所以我們希望啦 你如果"},{"start":362.437,"end":368.476,"text":"願意檢討近年辦案的成效或者是你可以提出具體的改進報告"},{"start":371.004,"end":388.114,"text":"就是我們說的社會重大的關注的案件譬如說食品衛生案其實我們調查了18有18個案子公共安全有13個案子霸凌或者性貧虐童的案子總共有46案然後整治官僧也有118人尤其是光電案也有13案有關於有些有些個"},{"start":394.698,"end":421.508,"text":"重大官員的部分我想你知道沒關係您在這邊所提的我想跟社會的觀感都是不一樣沒關係你如果有的話你把這個報告給我我們也會再回應你們好不好因為今天我們的時間有限我也不好占用後面委員的時間好謝謝新委員那接著請王洪威委員質詢"},{"start":428.635,"end":431.693,"text":"好,谢谢主席。我请行政院副主席长。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時54分）謝謝主席，本席有請監察院的王代理秘書長。"],["主席：有請，謝謝。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：秘書長好。監察院其實也是民眾非常高度期待的機關，因為監察院是我國憲法賦予最高的監察機關，所以它理應是政府失能、官員失職的時候人民最可以依賴的啄木鳥，但是很可惜我們看到近幾年來，這隻啄木鳥啄木的尖喙似乎失去了，也失去了勇氣，更失去了監察院應有的獨立性跟效率，這是民眾普遍的觀感，所以現在的監察院讓民眾感覺不再是勇於揭弊的制度守護人，而更像是關在金籠子裡的一隻寵物鳥。啄木鳥不應該是寵物鳥，所以我不知道秘書長你們面對社會的期待跟很多的批評聲浪，監察院內部有沒有檢討？你們是不是應該要成為人民值得信賴的監察機關？你等一下再回復。我們都認為監察權不能只是做做樣子、寫寫故事、交交報告，更不會是行政機關函文的郵差，所以人民要的是真正制衡的權力，確保改革落地的憲政機關。","所以我們看到，本席掌握了一些資料，監察院從108年以來，監察院辦結的重大案件明顯下滑，然後整體案件量也持續減少，我們覺得這不是個案而是結構性的退縮和怠惰，所以調查報告感覺充其量只是個紀錄者，但監察院的職責應該是糾舉者。如果連糾舉失職官員都做不到，那監察機關存在的意義是什麼？為什麼我們看到很多社會上有民怨的事件、重大官員的違失案件，都是媒體或立法院揭露在先，監察院始終慢半拍，而且不了了之。面對這樣的一個失職案件，在彈劾率極低，調查時間又冗長，社會觀感極差的情況下，部分監察委員反倒積極地參與國際出訪，做形象工程，跟在國內的調查績效形成了非常大的反差，所以人民的陳情、申冤案不好好做，卻花大筆的公帑搞國際拜會，這不是監察制度的初衷，而是公器私用的歪風。","所以我們主張監察院應該要重新定位，它不能是裝飾民主的機構，必須真正落實憲政制衡的力量，所以請秘書長回應，你是否支持建立監察權績效公開的評鑑制度？是或否？"],["王代理秘書長增華：請委員讓我說明一下，有關這個案件，委員這樣分類，其實在監察院辦理調查案件注意事項第五點有規定，所謂的「一般案件」是要求3個月要結案；「重大案件」是6個月；「特殊重大案件」是1年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係。"],["王代理秘書長增華：其實特殊重大案件是在持續增加，跟第5屆比起來增加了4倍以上。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！如果案件真的有增加，但是……"],["王代理秘書長增華：是增加的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你到底有沒有改善？你案件增加，我們不看表面，但是不是有改善？是不是有具體地讓民眾感受到？大家的觀感並不是如此。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，是這樣子的，我們提出的調查報告都會對外公開……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，那你是否支持監察權的績效公開評鑑制度？"],["王代理秘書長增華：其實我們相關的績效都有公布……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你支持嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們都有公布在網站上。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是否支持重啟監委評鑑機制，接受國會或民間的評分監督？是否支持？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，監委是依據法律獨立行使職權，至於……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個只是一個評鑑機制耶！"],["王代理秘書長增華：那要看是什麼樣的組織或機構，或是評鑑的標準……"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後……"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為它是依據法律獨立行使職權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我知道你支持啦！那是否願意檢討近年低落的辦案成效，提出具體的改進報告？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我們不認為我們的辦案成效有低落，而且第六屆的人民陳情案件到現在為止有七萬七千多件，其實從88年一直到今年5月……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是大家都覺得你們根本都沒有……"],["王代理秘書長增華：然後調查報告是九千多件。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有辦法真正糾舉、彈劾，而且很多公務人員重大疏失，你們都沒有辦法進行整個的……"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們的彈劾案、彈劾人數跟五屆比起來也都是增加的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我不好提出個案，我不提出這些社會上重大案件，但其實民眾都知道，你去google或是新聞查一查都知道，其實執行情況都不佳。"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明……"],["徐委員欣瑩：包括很多民眾的陳情，甚至是社會上的重大案件，所以我們希望你願意檢討近年辦案的成效，或者是你可以提出具體的改進報告。"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，委員說的社會關注的重大案件，比如說食品衛生案，我們就調查了18個案子，公共安全有13個案子，霸凌或者性平、虐童的案子總共有46案，然後整飭官箴大概有118人，尤其是光電案，也有13案，有關於相關學倫案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有些重大官員的部分，我想你知道，沒關係！您在這邊所提的，我想跟社會的觀感都是不一樣，沒關係，如果有的話，你把報告給我，我們也會再回應你們，好不好？因為今天我們的時間有限，我也不好占用後面委員的時間。謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：謝謝欣瑩委員。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db50668379fff9d57a2248be1699f4405fe9f06770f1b1beefe108ec77dcdb8ffec4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:47:20 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沒錯也就是說到底有沒有個人隱私到底有沒有所謂的公益性公益的必要性法庭職位有沒有這些可以討論但是監察委員在彈劾一個不適任或者是違法失職的公務員的時候他具有百分之一百的公益性這個這一點我認為真的該公開的應該是監察院的彈劾過程甚至最後到"},{"start":197.24,"end":203.785,"text":"職務法庭去所謂的包括法官檢察官這些相關的程序反而更應該公開"},{"start":205.491,"end":229.642,"text":"在你的立場裡面這個應該也是你會同意的吧對就是說有關於在職務法庭或者是懲戒法院的那部分沒錯如果法庭直播大家有爭議的話反而是公務員彈劾的這些相關的程序應該優先直播這是我認為至少它具有百分之百的公義性另外我想問你你去年去"},{"start":230.888,"end":257.757,"text":"日本考察你也寫了一份考察報告我們很認真的看完了裡面說101年7月6號到113年9月30監察院在12年間總共彈劾了34個法官34個法官這個過程職務法庭判決免除法官職務的喪失公務員任用資格有一個撤職三個免除法官職務轉任法官以外職務有七個"},{"start":259.302,"end":277.898,"text":"這是一個不適任法官我們國家的結果但是我要問的秘書長是最近我們看到很多媒體大幅報導惡劣的檢察官製造證據入人於罪這些狀況請問你們這幾年彈劾了多少個檢察官你不知道 最後不給我但也有吧 有 有的好 12年34個法官很驚人"},{"start":289.074,"end":306.394,"text":"現在的問題就是監察委員是不是有自請調查的主動權依照監察法施行細則第二四條是現在有沒有人針對這些媒體大幅報導妨害違反司法偵查不公開還有所謂的製造假證據有沒有監察委員自請調查"},{"start":308.069,"end":327.079,"text":"有關於偵查不公開的這個issue有沒有監察委員自請調查過 現在監察 就是有關於偵查不公開 其實有多數的調查案我記得的話應該是有九個最近的報導有沒有人申請自請調查目前沒有這些要人檢舉你們才受理 是嗎"},{"start":329.411,"end":356.784,"text":"監察院有主動調查權監察院如果剛講的他以前是國會所以他言論免責權然後他應該受到程序保障但是現在有這麼多媒體大幅報導的以前監察委員都會拿過來自己寫一個我要調查到今天為止這麼多報導司法官相關的所謂的他的行為不適當或違法的情況監察委員現在都不動了是嗎"},{"start":358.629,"end":373.507,"text":"就跟委員說明一下就是說在自動調查之前其實監察院依照人民訴訟處理法我要說的是秘書長如果監察院要繼續保持糾正糾舉彈劾都是監察委員的主要的權限我建議"},{"start":375.337,"end":396.096,"text":"監察委員們現在就應該針對這個社會上發生的重大事件發現公務員有可能違法失職不要再發生謝怡蓉不要再發生陳忠彥這種事情好嗎如果看到這些人已經被指控媒體大幅的報導哪個惡檢那你至少要查一下還他清白也好啊"},{"start":396.816,"end":413.132,"text":"現在是不動啊監察院是完全不動啊委員 我剛剛就是要說明 並不是不動我們會依照人民訴訟處理辦法先去發函了解 去蒐集資料因為在調查之前是要先蒐集資料蒐集資料可以啊 但是我的意思是說剛剛講"},{"start":415.013,"end":443.206,"text":"監察院彈劾了34個法官值得肯定但是現在聽到這麼多我們希望如果真的要恢復監察院的公信力可能監察院要更主動一些尤其是剛剛講如果法庭要直播真正的職務法庭跟監察院彈劾的會議才真正應該開放好嗎謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊委員好 謝謝戴祖密 謝謝好 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這確實不簡單而且這一次有115國 148個地區來參加"},{"start":39.158,"end":62.113,"text":"我認為監察院坐一天和尚敲一天鐘不管以後的存費那這個是另外一回事但是你們要積極做這件事情這是對的這個預算我支持所以我要跟你提的倒是另外一件事我希望你回去跟櫃院能夠提就是說"},{"start":64.154,"end":87.502,"text":"對這個案子重啟調查也就是說我們對於進口保健品高關稅的這個保護在去年五月那貴院就有提到說因為進口保健品這個關稅率偏高而且偏高的關稅率不但不但"},{"start":89.115,"end":111.008,"text":"這個沒辦法造成產業升級不但沒保護它反而讓劣質品衝刺而且不肖業者用這個不實的廣告大量的不實廣告反而影響了我們國民的健康所以當時貴月就立案就調查了"},{"start":112.882,"end":128.718,"text":"結果調查的結果是怎麼樣呢調查的結果竟然是說這個高關稅保護是有助於保護產業啦所以查無不法謝謝指教天啊對於"},{"start":132.577,"end":148.81,"text":"你們一開始立案要調查 你們當初發動這個調查那時候說的說 劣質品充斥 業者暴力不實廣告 這些部分你們完全知字未提啦"},{"start":149.911,"end":169.828,"text":"調查的結果到底怎麼樣 沒有 沒提就說這個高關稅保護是有必要的 保護了這個產業我認為要不然當初你們就不要發動調查要調查就要針對這幾項你們自己提的喔 這些重大的"},{"start":171.73,"end":189.4,"text":"這個錯誤缺失你們在調查報告裡面完全不提那你們還有提到你說而且啊你說這個高關稅啊30%沒錯但是只佔這個保健品價格的8.4%你說這個對價格影響不大那個秘書長我不曉得你知不知道我們就講善存好了"},{"start":200.561,"end":228.094,"text":"單純在美國沃爾瑪大廠的這個一般的銷售買平均下來一顆是2.8元台幣那在我們台灣啊你到任何的這個奧裝店去買平均一顆是6.9元啦價差2.5倍我們國人要花2.5倍的價格那比方說"},{"start":229.96,"end":255.418,"text":"這個藍莓精華欸 你到日本的藥妝店去買的時候日本那邊賣的一顆是4.1元我們台灣竟然高達11.3元價差將近三倍啦所以 祕書長我希望你帶回去說的就是說用合理的價格購買保健品這是我們台灣人民的健康權欸"},{"start":257.509,"end":271.424,"text":"這是我們全體民眾的健康權這一點一定要保障但是你看喔你們沒有調查的這幾項我就講你們沒調查的這幾項你比方說不實廣告"},{"start":274.171,"end":292.623,"text":"這些業者很多大量的用不實的廣告賺取暴利啊就像你們講的 你說38的高關稅結果只佔他售價的這個8.4是啊 那個差額在哪裡差額就是他們的暴利跟廣告費"},{"start":293.664,"end":315.872,"text":"好 那他們那麼高的廣告費喔我舉例 如果我們台灣的國民我們花三千塊買一罐保健品竟然有兩千塊是在付廣告費那我們全體國人做何感想這是對的嗎 這是對的嗎然後這些不肖業者的惡劣 惡劣到什麼程度我舉例啦齁"},{"start":317.523,"end":336.6,"text":"我舉例 光是有一項 說它會這個四神經再生完全抑制脂肪積蓄這樣子的一個藥品光去年一年被違規開罰八十次 總共光這一項藥品就罰了一千九百七十八萬"},{"start":337.925,"end":354.665,"text":"難道所有這些生氣產業業者藥廠做健康食品的總共去年一年罰了四億三千六百二十八萬那為什麼罰這麼高罰四億三千多萬這些業者都不怕因為一年"},{"start":356.394,"end":367.216,"text":"他的產值我們現在一年國內消費保健品消費1400億到1700億中間裡面有1200億是因為高關稅的保護讓國內的產業他得益有1200億這麼大的自己國內的市場1200億"},{"start":382.264,"end":388.453,"text":"高獲利他罰四億他當然不怕而且最嚴重的那個主席抱歉我一定要講這一點講兩點"},{"start":392.484,"end":406.23,"text":"這一些啊 生技廠藥廠反噬了我們自己國內大家不再去研發正式的藥品心臟病藥 高血壓藥 糖尿病藥正式的藥品不研發啦 為什麼那些研發困難 時間長 經費高他們就用最輕鬆的 不需要什麼技術的保健品不是嗎 就荒廢了我們自己國內的製藥"},{"start":420.175,"end":438.665,"text":"這不打緊喔你們還說高關稅是保護產業這些產業這些生技廠藥廠絕大多數因為這樣的保護這十年來他們都上市上櫃了耶他們可曾為我們國人的健康付出"},{"start":439.685,"end":452.493,"text":"你研發藥品你不研發至少國外專利到了這些重要救命的藥品那你做學名藥加惠我們國的降低我們健保藥品的支出他們不他們用健康品研發健康品向經濟部用研發藥品的名義向經濟部申請補助"},{"start":465.1,"end":488.828,"text":"到時候成品的時候他交出來他說藥品沒辦法研發出來變成保健品得到財政部的高關稅保護經濟部補助他們研發藥品他們拿出成果是保健品然後接受30%高關稅的保護然後我們國人要花兩倍到三倍的費用"},{"start":490.238,"end":509.682,"text":"來幫他們支付他們的暴力他們的不實廣告所以這一點那個秘書長你一定要帶回去好不好跟你們監察院商量只有你們有調查權只有你們有辦法遏止這種無理不法惡劣的行徑好不好好 謝謝王委員好 秘書長 帶領秘書長請回 謝謝"},{"start":518.493,"end":520.236,"text":"好 下一位黃珊珊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我請監察院王秘書長。"],["主席（陳委員培瑜代）：有請，謝謝。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：秘書長，今天的主題是舉辦國際監察使年會的預算750萬元，本席要表示支持，我的道理很簡單，第一個就是好不容易2022年陳菊院長的時候就爭取加入國際監察組織，而且我們加入的名義是中華民國監察院，這確實不簡單，而且這次有115國、148個地區來參加，我認為監察院做一天和尚敲一天鐘，不管以後的存廢，這個是另外一回事，但是你們要積極做這件事情，這是對的，這個預算我支持。","我要跟你提的倒是另外一件事，我希望你回去能跟貴院提出對一個案子重啟調查，這就是我們對於進口保健品高關稅的保護。去年5月，貴院就有提到因為進口保健品關稅稅率偏高，而且偏高的關稅稅率不但沒辦法幫助產業升級，不但沒保護它，反而讓劣質品充斥，而且不肖業者用大量的不實廣告，反而影響了我們國民的健康，所以當時貴院就立案調查，結果調查的結果是怎麼樣？調查的結果竟然是說，高關稅保護是有助於保護產業，所以查無不法，謝謝指教。天啊！對於你們一開始立案要調查，你們當初發動這個調查，那時候說的是劣質品充斥、業者暴利、不實廣告，這一些部分你們完全隻字未提，調查的結果到底怎麼樣？沒有、沒提，就說高關稅保護是有必要的，保護了這個產業。我認為要不然當初你們就不要發動調查，要調查就要針對這幾項，你們自己提的這些重大的錯誤、缺失，你們在調查報告裡面完全不提，而且你說這個高關稅是30%沒錯，但是只占保健品價格的8.4%，你說這個對價格影響不大。","秘書長，我不曉得你知不知道，我們就講善存好了，善存在美國一般的銷售通路沃爾瑪買，平均下來一顆是2.8元臺幣。在我們臺灣，你到任何的藥妝店去買，平均一顆是6.9元，價差2.5倍，我們國人要花2.5倍的價格。比方說藍莓精華，你到日本的藥妝店去買的時候，日本那邊賣的一顆是4.1元，我們臺灣竟然高達11.3元，價差將近3倍。所以秘書長，我希望你帶回去的是，用合理的價格購買保健品，這是我們臺灣人民的健康權，這是我們全體民眾的健康權，這一點一定要保障。但是你看你們沒有調查的這幾項，我就講你們沒調查的這幾項，比方說不實廣告，很多業者大量的用不實廣告賺取暴利，就像你們講的，你說30%的高關稅，結果只占它售價的8.4%，是啊！那那個差額在哪裡？差額就是他們的暴利跟廣告費。那他們花那麼高的廣告費，我舉例，如果我們臺灣的國民花3,000塊買一罐保健品，竟然有2,000塊是在付廣告費，那我們全體國人作何感想，這是對的嗎？這是對的嗎？","然後這些不肖業者惡劣到什麼程度？我舉例，光是有一項說它會「讓視神經再生、完全抑制脂肪蓄積」這樣子的一個藥品，光去年一年違規被開罰80次，光這一項藥品總共就罰了1,978萬，然後所有這些生技產業的業者、藥廠、做健康食品的，總共去年一年罰了4億3,628萬，為什麼罰這麼高，罰四億三千多萬這些業者都不怕？因為一年它的產值……我們現在一年國內消費保健品1,400億到1,700億中間，裡面有1,200億是因為高關稅的保護，讓國內的產業得以有1,200億這麼大的自己國內市場，有1,200億的高獲利，它罰4億當然不怕，而且最嚴重的……","主席抱歉，我一定要講兩點，這一些生技廠、藥廠反噬了我們自己國內，大家不再去研發正式的藥品，像心臟病藥、高血壓藥、糖尿病藥，正式的藥品不研發了，為什麼？那些研發困難、時間長、經費高，他們就用最輕鬆的、不需要什麼技術的保健品，不是嗎？就荒廢了我們自己國內的製藥，這不打緊喔！你們還說高關稅是保護產業，這一些產業、這些生技廠、藥廠絕大多數因為這樣的保護，這10年來他們都上市、上櫃了耶！他們可曾為我們國人的健康付出？你不研發藥品，至少這些重要救命藥品的國外專利到了，那你做學名藥，嘉惠我們國人，降低我們健保藥品的支出。但他們不，他們研發健康品，用研發藥品的名義向經濟部申請補助，到成品的時候它交出來，它說藥品沒辦法研發出來，變成保健品，得到財政部的高關稅保護，經濟部補助他們研發藥品，他們拿出的成果卻是保健品，然後接受30%高關稅的保護，我們國人要花2倍到3倍的費用來幫他們支付他們的暴利、他們的不實廣告，所以這一點秘書長你一定要帶回去，好不好？跟你們監察院商量，只有你們有調查權，只有你們有辦法遏止這種無理、不法、惡劣的行徑，好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：好。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，代理秘書長請回，謝謝。","下一位黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5066e9877cf452f55ce8be1699f4405fe9f06770f1b1beefe10147423978a1619b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:31:37 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希望能够通过我也希望可以通过 为什么这么说因为过去我们在做人权工作的时候其实我们知道人权工作的国际交流非常的重要那事实上呢 这个750万到底是跑到哪里去了我跟您再次确定一下它其实是被你们编在所谓意识业务当中那本来今年呢 申请的是1800多万 对吗"},{"start":41.375,"end":66.023,"text":"對,1800多,可是光是這個項目就750萬,這個April年會所以我認為這個荒謬的預算審議場景還有包含連國民黨的很多前輩啊,大佬他們自己都說看到國民黨的委員荒謬奇怪的預算審查案提案4000多案,造成這個荒謬的亂象可能國民黨委員都忘記,但是我想大家都不會忘記所以我也很希望今天我們在後續的表決可以看到大家都是支持的"},{"start":66.483,"end":89.134,"text":"所以把人權的議題往下延伸我接下來跟您討論也是要一併拜託您不知道後續的可能性啦關於2023年監察院出席這個伊比利美州監察使聯盟我們有相關的會議然後有看到這個出國報告我要認同這個出國報告您不用擔心怎麼說因為這裡面很大篇幅提到兒少權益的部分我也認為這確實是我們台灣監察院"},{"start":91.155,"end":114.446,"text":"或是過去在人權委員會其實都已經多有著墨並且看到確實是有些進展那當然我知道你們現在預算受到很大的影響可是我還是想要拜託帶回去相關的意見喔下一張如果之後相關預算有機會調整讓你們可以好好用這些錢好好做這些事情我想要拜託監察院先整理這五年近五年"},{"start":115.506,"end":139.182,"text":"監察院參加國外相關組織會議關於兒少政策監察的討論可不可以帶回台灣作為參考那過去已經參加過的我不確定你們有沒有整理相關進度如果有的話可不可以先給我們那第二個就是未來在今年即將主辦這個April年會當中有沒有機會放入兒少權益的討論我剛剛看到你們手上給我這個議程我剛剛快速看了一眼"},{"start":140.363,"end":156.361,"text":"有一個人權精神台灣民主跟監察權的發展或者是如何讓民眾有感或者是AI與人權民主與法治不知道我們哪一個部分的議程你覺得有機會在子題討論的時候納入跟兒少權益監察政策有關的議程"},{"start":158.767,"end":173.93,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在的議程是粗略的預估大概是這樣子就我個人覺得兒少權益的部分可能在第一場或者是在第三場都會可能還有機會去放進來"},{"start":174.411,"end":192.14,"text":"那看起來我們滿有共識的我們後續就再來討論好不好謝謝你 謝謝好 接下來下一個我想要感謝監察院大家都一直在說監察院沒有做事我要說是因為他們不願意認真看監察院做了什麼事情光是我們辦公室過去這兩年半我們提到非常多兒少現場的困境"},{"start":192.66,"end":215.666,"text":"我們除了開記者會跟相關主管機關對話我們實質的希望改善現場狀況我們看到監察院有非常多監委也主動提起調查相關後續的進度我們非常肯定監察院這邊給予整個公民團體或者是學者專家團體或是在意這個議題的人的協助我可不可以請你說一下我們監察院怎麼看這個事情關於很多兒少政策"},{"start":216.64,"end":243.257,"text":"其實就像委員所觀察到的這一屆的監察委員對於CRC的相關的調查報告是非常分量是非常多的然後又加上我們有非常多的監委對這個議題都非常的有興趣而且有深深有非常有專業所以我們開啟了非常多的調查案甚至有些專案調查研究人權委員會也有類似的一個通案性的研究"},{"start":243.797,"end":265.775,"text":"所以我們所涉獵的密度是相當的高的好沒錯那後續我想除了我們現在已經看到的成果之外往下其實我還是想要持續拜託監察院關於單項協會治癒跟體育署之間怎麼說其實過去這幾年這兩年來其實有非常多單項協會的失職跟施責跟失能其實他們"},{"start":266.836,"end":289.059,"text":"這些不作為導致了現場第一線運動員的權益受損包含昨天我們還看到女足公會發了一個聲明協會的不當安排班機的事情而嚴重影響選手的權益可是其實協會的監督主管機關是體育署那至於教育部那未來運動部要成立今年九月就成立我想我就先提早預告有很多關於體育"},{"start":290.5,"end":306.013,"text":"體育界的困境真的未來要拜託監察院一起努力尤其是體育界這些過去很多所謂大老觀念大老把持的這種實質上的做法真的也非常影響很多年輕人要投入所謂運動產業的意願這件事情"},{"start":308.255,"end":334.092,"text":"那因为很多实质的问题我们没有办法在今天讨论没有关系我只是先把我们的期待跟很多国人对运动部成立之后的期待先带给监察院好接下来下一个案子这个我也感谢监察院在施大案的协助跟相关调查可是很可惜的是我们看到外部的独立调查小组做了一个停聘两年的建议可是最后施大竟然决定让这个行为人"},{"start":334.952,"end":351.057,"text":"他規定他只有不得在外兼職意思就是他可以繼續留在師大裡面那當時檢舉他的這些球員這些學生他未來如何面對這個人或者是他會不會再去影響其他的學生後續這個部分可不可以拜託監察院持續協助"},{"start":353.948,"end":382.708,"text":"這個調查案應該已經提出調查報告那後續呢都會持續追蹤我們還沒有結案好那最後一個就是關於體育班的政策我當然不會只有跟監察院說因為體育班有太多權益不對等的關係那未來體育班我們要如何協助我一樣把問題帶過來好不好我要拜託監察院持續關注我們體育班那我這邊是不是可以快速建請監察院人權委員會評估進行相關專題研究不要讓在孩子們的受益權身心健康權受到影響"},{"start":384.77,"end":385.17,"text":"接著請王世堅委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請代理秘書長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好！代理秘書長辛苦了。今天要談750萬支應案的事情，剛剛聽起來大部分人應該是同意的啦！我不知道你現在站在這邊，你覺得等一下表決的時候樂不樂觀？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我審慎樂觀。"],["陳委員培瑜：審慎樂觀？"],["王代理秘書長增華：非常希望能夠通過。"],["陳委員培瑜：我也希望可以通過。為什麼這麼說？因為過去我們在做人權工作的時候，其實我們知道人權工作的國際交流非常重要。事實上這750萬元到底是跑到哪裡去了，我跟你再次確定一下，它其實是被你們編在所謂「議事業務」當中，本來今年申請的是一千八百多萬元，對嗎？對，一千八百多萬元。可是光是APOR年會這個項目就750萬元，所以我認為這個荒謬的預算審議場景，還有包含連國民黨很多前輩、大老自己都說，看到國民黨委員荒謬、奇怪的預算審查提案四千多案造成這個荒謬的亂象，可能國民黨的委員自己都忘記，但是我想大家都不會忘記，所以我很希望在今天後續的表決可以看到大家都是支持的。","把人權的議題往下延伸，我接下來要跟您討論，也要一併拜託您（雖然不知道後續的可能性）。關於2023年監察院出席伊比利美洲監察使聯盟的年會，我們有看到相關的出國報告，我要認同這個出國報告，您不用擔心。怎麼說？因為這裡面很大篇幅提到兒少權益的部分，我也認為這確實是我們臺灣、監察院，或是過去在人權委員會其實都已經多有著墨，並且看到確實是有些進展。當然，我知道你們現在預算受到很大的影響，但我還是想拜託你們把相關的意見帶回去。如果之後相關預算有機會調整，讓你們可以好好地用這些錢、好好地做這些事情，我想拜託你們先整理近五年監察院赴國外參加相關國際組織會議有關兒少政策監察之討論可不可以帶回臺灣做為參考。過去已經參加過的，我不確定你們有沒有整理相關進度，如果有的話，可不可以先給我們？第二個就是，在今年即將主辦這個APOR年會當中，有沒有機會放入兒少權益的討論？你們剛剛給我這個議程，我快速看了一眼，有一個人權精神臺灣民主跟監察權的發展，或者是如何讓民眾有感，或者是AI與人權、民主與法治，不知道有沒有哪一個部分你覺得有機會在子題討論的時候納入跟兒少權益監察政策有關的議程？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我們現在的議程是粗略的，預估大概是這樣子。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，暫訂的。"],["王代理秘書長增華：就我個人覺得，兒少權益的部分可能在第一場或第三場都還有機會放進來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，看起來我們滿有共識的，後續我們再來討論，好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝你，謝謝！","接下來我想感謝監察院，大家一直在說監察院沒有做事，我要說是因為他們不願意認真看監察院做了什麼事情。光是我們辦公室過去這兩年半提到非常多兒少現場的困境，除了開記者會跟相關主管機關對話，實質地希望改善現場狀況，我們看到監察院有非常多監委也主動提起調查，後續相關進度我們非常肯定監察院這邊給予整個公民團體、學者專家團體或是在意這個議題的人的協助。我可不可以請你說一下監察院怎麼看這個事情？關於很多兒少政策。"],["王代理秘書長增華：就像委員所觀察到的，這一屆的監察委員對於CRPD相關調查報告的分量是非常多的，再加上我們有非常多監委對這個議題都非常有興趣，而且非常有專業，所以我們開啟了非常多的調查案，甚至有些專案調查研究，人權委員會也有類似的通案性的研究，所以我們所涉獵的密度是相當高的。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。除了我們現在已經看到的成果之外，其實我還是想要持續拜託監察院，關於單項協會和體育署之間，怎麼說？其實過去這兩年來有非常多單項協會失職、失責和失能，他們的不作為導致現場、第一線運動員的權益受損，包含昨天我們還看到女足工會發了一個聲明，指出協會不當安排班機的事情嚴重影響選手的權益，可是協會的監督、主管機關是體育署乃至於教育部。運動部今年9月就要成立，我想我就先提早預告，有很多關於體育界的困境，未來真的要拜託監察院一起努力，尤其是體育界過去有很多大老觀念、大老把持的這種實質上的做法，真的也非常影響很多年輕人要投入運動產業的意願。很多實質的問題我們沒辦法在今天討論，不過沒有關係，我只是先把我們的期待跟很多國人對運動部成立之後的期待先帶給監察院。","接下來我也感謝監察院對師大案的協助和相關調查，很可惜的是，我們看到外部的獨立調查小組做了一個停聘2年的建議，可是最後師大竟然決定只規定這個行為人不得在外兼職，意思就是他可以繼續留在師大裡面，那麼當時檢舉他的這些球員、這些學生未來如何面對這個人，或者是他會不會再去影響其他的學生？後續這個部分可不可以拜託監察院持續協助？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這個調查案應該已經提出調查報告了。"],["陳委員培瑜：對！"],["王代理秘書長增華：後續都會持續追蹤，我們還沒有結案。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，最後是有關體育班的政策。我當然不會只跟監察院說，因為體育班有太多權益不對等的關係，未來我們要如何協助體育班？我一樣把問題帶過來好不好？我要拜託監察院持續關注體育班。我這邊是不是可以快速建請監察院人權委員會評估進行相關專題研究，不要再讓孩子們的受教權和身心健康權受到影響？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們會帶回去，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，你們帶回去研究，我們辦公室再跟你們討論，好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：好的。謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝、謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝培瑜委員。接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db506b3ac36556e61c4798be1699f4405fe9f06770f1b1beefe10bd02ad7df8a93d275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:24:16 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會低於3%那我再提供一個數據給您也就是在今年四月份的時候外商美商在公布今年第二季全球企業台灣企業樂觀指數分別全球的企業是會下降1.3%外商評估全球平均會掉1.3%但是台灣會掉25%"},{"start":75.307,"end":98.614,"text":"主席長副主席長這個數據凸顯兩個問題第一個問題是如果外商都認為我們有可能信心值會掉25%那一般投資者是這樣當他對一件事情或一個國家大環境沒有信心的時候很多外商他就觀望他不敢投資這是第一點我要凸顯的會有這個氛圍第二"},{"start":100.695,"end":105.551,"text":"如果國人會預估今年景氣不好那我就保守我不敢花錢"},{"start":107.116,"end":129.126,"text":"你身上如果每個月只有賺三萬塊你可能就會想辦法下半年經濟景氣不好我不要花那麼多我除了基本的我的生活必須品重我不敢額外消費我不敢出國玩這兩件事情我想你大概能夠認同就是大環境上如果國際上外商評估我們的全球經濟不景氣甚至全球是會掉1.3%台灣掉25%這是美商的數據"},{"start":133.568,"end":157.583,"text":"那台灣國人國泰金控調查國人對於這個今年的信心指數大概都認為會低於3%在個人那個人如果對於經濟景氣不信心的話那當然對台灣整體環境來講企業沒有信心不敢投資個人沒有信心不敢消費那個對於整體台灣大環境的景氣那就是雙殺您了解我的意思嗎"},{"start":158.583,"end":179.836,"text":"企業不敢投資那我就回過頭來問您這不是我說的是因為這是有數據這是有美商的數據鄧白氏的企業調查數據我拿這兩個信心指數來跟您做回應當然我們看到上半年度我們的CPI是控制得還不錯但是我講的是接下來我們第三季第四季"},{"start":180.876,"end":201.482,"text":"國際的環境對於台灣無論是關稅大環境到底對於我們會有什麼樣的影響那我就會過頭來請問副主席長你認為今年我們到底能不能夠保三能不能夠保三你只要回應我這件事因為我們今天時間不多我們對保三保有信心"},{"start":202.662,"end":228.5,"text":"你有信心因為基本上就是說這個對等關稅因為他剛開始這個32%對大家造成一個疑慮但是我們慢慢可以觀察到這個對等關稅他有一個緩衝期而且這個比例也不必然會那麼高所以你還是有信心那接下來你有信心那我們還有沒有評估未來會有哪些變數"},{"start":229.821,"end":229.981,"text":"會對於寶三有影響衝擊?"},{"start":260.241,"end":288.163,"text":"所以夫人你有沒有去評估過接下來有哪些變數會讓我們沒有辦法保三有沒有去算過以前都有評估過啊以前朱澤民都常常對於包括以前惡霧戰爭的時候朱澤民都有去評估過啊就是我們認為有保三的這個信心主要是基於就是說這一次的以一戰爭這個油價的上漲並沒有有我們原來預期的這麼高就是它並沒有漲到今年一月的高點它就往下調"},{"start":288.763,"end":295.247,"text":"妳們有沒有做過 因為每一件事情我們都會做額外的評估有哪些評估的變動的原因會去影響寶珊 妳覺得都不會完全不會有影響"},{"start":300.273,"end":306.076,"text":"美中對抗有轉單的效應也許對我們反而是有利的所以我們認為對寶山還是有信心以色列跟伊朗的戰爭後續的影響打打停停後續對於我們的影響會不會有影響"},{"start":323.965,"end":338.517,"text":"有沒有評估過基本上我們現在觀察到就是說這個油價的部分的上漲也不如原來所以為的衝擊那麼大所以你認為都不是問題那現在停火的協議都繼續在談當中所以我們認為這個對我們的衝擊應該是沒有原來所以為的那麼大"},{"start":347.774,"end":368.146,"text":"所以所有的因素你都排除所以保三覺得有信心這也是一個答案因為我覺得主計處在評估這些數據很重要這是對於未來政府整個行政院在施政上或者在很多油電的控制上我覺得都是一個重要因素這企業也都在看好我最後就是再提醒"},{"start":369.026,"end":393.533,"text":"現在通膨很嚴重外食族跟豬屋族很痛苦所以雖然CPI控制得不錯但是我希望你們給我一個答案因為大家都知道現在外食包括便當盒排骨便當一個漲到120這都是那豬屋這個是你們評估出來豬屋的漲的幅度是最高的為什麼會造成這些原因後續政府如何去解決這兩件事情"},{"start":395.453,"end":408.288,"text":"這是基層年輕人一般民眾有感的東西我們雖然說CPI控制得很好但是民眾感受度卻不是這樣子所以我要提醒你們後續如何去處理否則就是一個體感失溫的通膨你們覺得通膨控制得不錯"},{"start":410.57,"end":424.282,"text":"數據上看起來好像不錯但是事實上我們的外食族跟租屋族從數據上你也看得到這些數據事實上完全不是這麼一回事所以你們去評估好不好 謝謝是 我們會注意穩定物價 謝謝委員好 謝謝燕秀接著我們請陳佩儀委員質詢好 謝謝主席 那有請代理秘書長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時24分）感謝召委，我是不是可以邀請副主計長？"],["主席：好，副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝主計長，我一向非常關心民生的議題，現在民眾對於整個經濟感受度的數據上，我想透過今天的質詢跟你探討。包括國泰金控在今年6月份公布的國民經濟信心調查結果當中，多數民眾對於今年的經濟成長其實都不抱太大的期待跟樂觀，平均的預期值大概只有2.61%，但是將近有六成三的民眾認為，我們今（2025）年的經濟成長會低於3%，一個是民眾對於今年經濟成長的信心指數，大家覺得是不樂觀，會低於3%。","我再提供一個數據給您，在今年4月份的時候，外商、美商公布今年第2季全球企業、臺灣企業的樂觀指數分別是，外商評估全球企業平均會掉1.3%，但是臺灣會掉25%。副主計長，這個數據凸顯兩個問題，第一個問題是，如果外商都認為我們有可能信心值會掉25%，一般投資者是這樣，當他對一件事情或一個國家大環境沒有信心的時候，很多外商就觀望不敢投資，這是第一點我要凸顯的，會有這個氛圍。","第二，如果國人會預估今年景氣不好，那就保守不敢花錢，你身上如果每個月只有賺3萬塊，你可能就會想辦法，下半年經濟景氣不好，不要花那麼多，除了基本生活必需品就不敢額外消費、不敢出國玩。這兩件事情，我想你大概能夠認同，這是大環境上，如果國際上外商評估我們的全球經濟不景氣，甚至全球是會掉1.3%，臺灣掉25%，這是美商的數據；而臺灣國泰金控的調查，國人對於今年的信心指數大概都認為會低於3%，個人如果對於經濟景氣沒有信心的話，那當然對臺灣整體環境來講，企業沒有信心不敢投資、個人沒有信心不敢消費，對於整體臺灣大環境的景氣，那就是雙殺。您了解我的意思嗎？企業不敢投資。好，那就回過頭來問您，這不是我說的，這是有數據，是有美商的數據、鄧白氏的企業調查數據，我拿這兩個信心指數來跟您做回應。","當然我們看到上半年度，我們的CPI是控制得還不錯，但我講的是，接下來我們第3季、第4季，國際的環境對於臺灣，無論是關稅、大環境到底對於我們會有什麼樣的影響，那我就回過頭來請問副主計長，你認為今年我們到底能不能夠保3？經濟成長能不能夠保3，你只要回應我這件事，因為我們今天時間不多。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，跟委員報告，我們對保3有信心，基本上……"],["李委員彥秀：你有信心？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，基本上就是對等關稅剛開始這32%對大家造成一個疑慮，但是我們慢慢可以觀察到對等關稅它有一個緩衝期，而且比例也不必然會那麼高。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你還是有信心？好，你有信心，那我們還有沒有評估未來會有哪些變數對於保3有影響衝擊？譬如現在國際上以色列跟伊朗的戰爭等等，對於原油什麼的會不會有什麼樣影響、對於進出口會不會有什麼樣的影響？因為我們大家都知道，在臺灣，我們在市場上其實會受幾個環境的影響，包括高利率的環境，出口市場不穩定的話，還有對於本地的消費如果疲軟，那整體對於經濟來說，包括企業投資都會有衝擊跟影響。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你有沒有去評估過，接下來有哪些變數會讓我們沒有辦法保3，有沒有去算過？以前都有評估過，以前朱澤民都常常對於……包括俄烏戰爭的時候，朱澤民都有去評估過。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是我們認為有保3的這個信心，主要是基於，這一次的以伊戰爭，油價的上漲並沒有我們原來預期的這麼高，並沒有漲到今年1月的高點它就往下調。"],["李委員彥秀：那你們有沒有做過，因為每一件事情我們都會做額外的評估，有哪些評估的變動原因會去影響保3？你覺得都不會，完全不會有影響？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是我們說的有利的因素就是……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，你覺得有，我也接受，其實我今天只是要一個答案而已，你只要告訴我會不會有什麼樣的影響？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是美中對抗有轉單的效應，也許對我們反而是有利的，所以我們認為對於保3還是有信心。"],["李委員彥秀：好，那包括以色列跟伊朗戰爭後續的影響，因為打打停停，後續對於我們的影響，會不會有影響？有沒有評估過？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為基本上我們現在觀察到的，油價部分的上漲也不如原來所以為的衝擊那麼大……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你認為都不是問題？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：現在停火的協議也都繼續在談，所以我們認為這對我們的衝擊應該沒有原來所以為的那麼大。"],["李委員彥秀：所有的因素你都排除，保證絕對有信心？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：主要還是對我們自己廠商的能力有信心。"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，這也是一個答案，我覺得主計總處評估數據很重要，因為這都是政府、整個行政院未來在施政上或是在很多對油電的控制上很重要的因素，所以企業也都在看。","我最後再提醒，現在通膨很嚴重，外食族和租屋族很痛苦，所以雖然CPI控制得不錯，但是我希望你們給我一個答案，因為大家都知道，現在排骨便當一個漲到120元，而根據你們的評估，租屋是漲幅最高的。為什麼會造成這些現象？後續政府如何去解決這兩件事情？這是基層、年輕人、一般民眾有感的東西，雖然我們的CPI控制得很好，但是民眾感受度卻不是這樣子，所以我要提醒你們後續必須去處理，否則就是一個體感失溫的通膨。你們覺得通膨控制得不錯，數據上看起來好像不錯，但你也看到外食族和租屋族的相關數據，事實上完全不是這麼一回事，所以你們去評估，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，我們會注意穩定物價，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝彥秀。接著請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5065db0e83022d5f7148be1699f4405fe9f06770f1b1beefe10a515b23fefa1fd695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:15:06 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怎麼變這樣子的方式不是一頁一頁嗎好 但事實上我也在這裡要還原一下這一次塞野黨的委員在二砍二山預算其實這不是個案對於監察院下了這麼重的重手其實他是有一個計劃性的目的在進行 因為"},{"start":85.988,"end":100.78,"text":"要基於政治的操作鎖定了特定機關我這邊列出來的跟監察院一樣是這一次的重災戶包括NCC、述發部、陸委會、外交部跟文化部關鍵的理由是"},{"start":101.46,"end":122.089,"text":"在野黨的委員透過預算的刪減或凍結讓這些關乎政府在國際可以發聲的部會不管是社群不管是文化媒介不管是主管媒體或者甚至外交部都全面的讓藉由預算的刪減讓台灣被消失下一頁"},{"start":125.891,"end":140.859,"text":"而當中的特定經費重中之重就是台灣要走到世界去讓世界聽到台灣聲音的各類外交相關旅費的預算沒宣費的預算都被迫來難以運作"},{"start":143.101,"end":146.264,"text":"讓台灣晉升將台灣鎖國這恐怕是今天我們在面對750萬的這個重要的國際年會在台灣背後我們一定要讓社會知道"},{"start":157.617,"end":165.021,"text":"如果在野黨的委員不同意依循預算法22條的授權讓我們能夠用動二來支應這個緊急的國際人權年會外交年會就是他們依舊是吃了襯托鐵了心要讓台灣在世界被消音被消失這背後的政治目的 浮躁斑斑"},{"start":182.831,"end":188.377,"text":"所以我也呼籲在野黨的委員這恢復的不是只有一個750萬的預算它恢復的是讓台灣可以在國際社會持續的發聲好 下一頁"},{"start":196.212,"end":224.429,"text":"那刚刚陈玉珍委员对于人权会也跟您做一下科普啊因为这是我们司法法治委员会啊其实国家人权委员会在依循1993年的巴黎原则监察院2020年跟上了我们成立的国家人权委员会下一页而争取入这个Apple APOR的正式会员是2002年对不对然后我们这是第几次来争取主办年会"},{"start":225.865,"end":229.546,"text":"第三次所以在馬英九總統的任內2011年台灣是第一次舉辦了APOR的年會馬英九前總統也親自出席因為馬英九總統說他是代表台灣簽署國際人權公約的總統"},{"start":244.192,"end":265.627,"text":"讓世界上看到台灣保障人權的努力馬前總統也背書了APO2年會對於台灣在國際人權能見度跟監察室的相關權限的經驗交流很重要的意義所以請國民黨的委員不要二砍二刪預算現在是你們來搶救預算來回應馬前總統主張的關鍵時刻下一頁"},{"start":274.473,"end":295.855,"text":"而同樣的這樣一個組織十個會員國台灣作為亞洲的人權燈塔應當把握我們年會的主辦機會更重要這個年會不是只講人權我看到這一次的議程還包括AI跟人權的關係現在在教育委員會同樣在審台灣的AI基本法"},{"start":296.596,"end":319.419,"text":"我們如何讓AI在人權法制面的健全能夠有利於立法院的監督跟立法這個年會我甚至認為立法院的委員都要關心因為這樣一個國際的場域可以讓我們受惠良多而這樣一個年會也包括世界各國對於監察權制度的優化"},{"start":320.76,"end":333.567,"text":"很重要的討論如果在野黨的委員要廢監察院立法院要啟動修憲委員會的討論後續需要多元的討論是不是監察制度在台灣要廢除台灣要從五權變四權"},{"start":337.589,"end":357.03,"text":"其實這一個年會也是一個重要的可以聆聽國際意見國際監察室制度的行使的重要機會所以在野黨的委員如果要費監察院這樣一個年會也可以提供很多我們在憲政制度精進的觀點"},{"start":358.832,"end":380.744,"text":"所以我的分析跟我的認知這樣750萬的預算恢復它不是只有人權預算也不是只有對於台灣在國際發生的機會我們更要搶救也需要透過這重要的年會對於台灣現在倡議中在野黨力推中的廢除監察院是否合宜"},{"start":381.664,"end":391.954,"text":"在野黨委員是不是要跟上民進黨長期以來的主張五權變三權其實這個年會也扮演了非常重要的角色我這樣的理解您認同嗎"},{"start":393.41,"end":420.648,"text":"完全認同謝謝委員所以他不是只有人權的分享他還有國際各國存有監察制度的國家對於現存制度的很多優劣的資訊的分享是是因為這是難得的監察的國際組織那其實在監察組織裡面除了人權以外民主還有善治都是非常重要的核心理念所以透過這樣子的一個交流其實是能夠讓"},{"start":421.688,"end":440.879,"text":"有關監察權的提升是非常有幫助的是所以監察權在台灣是存是廢如何的精進或者是要如何的來做調配我認為這樣的年會可以作為我們立法院修憲委員會的一個很重要的意見的參照好最後一頁"},{"start":441.98,"end":458.402,"text":"依據預算法22條的授權監察院除了今天750萬這個是先打頭陣後面我們送出來的7900多萬的爭取恢復動二的是可以幫助你們哪些部分不再被癱瘓"},{"start":460.806,"end":480.446,"text":"因為這次被刪減的預算比如說是一般行政是完全刪除調查巡查也是完全刪除所以調查巡查一定是運用於相關的巡迴監察跟調查職權的行使然後另外還有議事業務等等的如果是我們有非常仔細的盤點"},{"start":481.607,"end":501.249,"text":"如果讓這樣子的一個比例的7900萬是能夠讓監察職權一直到今年底114年基本上還可以免為運作當一天合上撞一天鐘我想這些監察委員這段時間受限於預算被刪減而沒有辦法去履行他們的憲政義務"},{"start":502.65,"end":507.752,"text":"憲政忠誠的職責我覺得這也是監委們大家心急如焚我除了支持750萬的這個APPLE年會的預算恢復我也非常的支持嚴格來講它不叫預算恢復它是說用動二來支應那我也支持你們後續7900多萬的預算的執行好來爭取必要的運作好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝私有接著請李燕秀委員質詢"},{"start":539.776,"end":539.961,"text":"感謝周圍"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時14分）謝謝主席，請代理秘書長。"],["主席：好，代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天我們在這裡要搶救人權預算，搶救外交預算，也搶救監察院的預算。這一次預算的惡砍惡刪，監察院是重災戶，除了這750萬現在排入議程，後續還會有大概七千九百多萬，希望一起來解除，希望能夠啟用二備金，我非常支持。因為畢竟不是只有這個活動需要協助正常運作，所以我非常支持你們後續提出來的案子。同樣地，人權會這一次也是受了滿嚴重的業務影響，我也支持，你們除了這750萬的APOR會議之外，另外有需要的一併提出。","但我也要在這裡還原一下，這一次在野黨的委員在惡砍惡刪預算，其實不是個案，對監察院下了如此的重手，其實是有一個計畫性的目的在進行。因為要基於政治的操作，鎖定了特定機關，我這邊列出來的，跟監察院一樣是這一次的重災戶，包括NCC、數發部、陸委會、外交部跟文化部。關鍵的理由是，在野黨的委員透過預算的刪減或凍結，讓這些關乎政府在國際可以發聲的部會，不管是社群，不管是文化媒介，不管是主管媒體或者甚至外交部，都全面藉由預算的刪減，讓臺灣被消失。","而當中的特定經費重中之重，就是臺灣要走到世界去，讓世界聽到臺灣聲音的各類外交相關旅費的預算、媒宣費的預算，都被迫難以運作，讓臺灣噤聲，將臺灣鎖國。這恐怕是今天面對750萬的重要國際年會在臺灣，背後一定要讓社會知道，如果在野黨的委員不同意依循預算法第二十二條的授權，讓我們能夠用動二來支應這個緊急的國際人權年會、外交年會，就是他們依舊是吃了秤砣鐵了心，要讓臺灣在世界被消音、被消失，這背後的政治目的斧鑿斑斑。我也呼籲在野黨的委員，這恢復的不是只有一個750萬的預算，它恢復的是讓臺灣可以在國際社會持續地發聲。","剛剛陳玉珍委員對於人權會也跟您做一下科普，因為這是司法及法制委員會。國家人權委員會依循1993年的巴黎原則，監察院2020年跟上，成立了國家人權委員會，而爭取入APOR的正式會員，是2002年對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是第幾次爭取主辦年會？"],["王代理秘書長增華：第3次。"],["吳委員思瑤：第3次嘛！所以在馬英九總統的任內，2011年臺灣第一次舉辦了APOR年會，馬英九前總統也親自出席，因為馬英九總統說，他是代表臺灣簽署國際人權公約的總統，讓世界看到臺灣保障人權的努力。馬前總統也背書了APOR年會對於臺灣在國際人權能見度跟監察使相關權限的經驗交流具很重要的意義。所以請國民黨的委員不要惡砍惡刪預算，現在是你們搶救預算來回應馬前總統主張的關鍵時刻，同樣地這樣一個組織有10個會員國，臺灣作為亞洲的人權燈塔，應當把握年會的主辦機會，更重要的是這個年會不只講人權，這一次的議程還包括AI跟人權的關係，現在在教育委員會同樣在審臺灣的AI基本法，我們如何讓AI在人權法制面的健全能夠有利於立法院的監督跟立法，這個年會我甚至認為立法院的委員都要關心，因為這樣一個國際的場域可以讓我們受惠良多，而這樣一個年會也包括世界各國對於監察權制度的優化很重要的討論。如果在野黨的委員要廢監察院，立法院要啟動修憲委員會討論，後續需要多元的討論，是不是監察制度在臺灣要廢除，臺灣要從五權變四權，其實這一個年會也是可以聆聽國際意見、國際監察使制度行使的重要機會。在野黨的委員如果要廢監察院，這樣一個年會也可以提供很多我們在憲政制度精進的觀點。","所以我的分析跟我的認知，這樣750萬的預算恢復，它不是只有人權預算，對於臺灣在國際發聲的機會，我們更要搶救，也需要透過這重要的年會，對於臺灣現在倡議中、在野黨力推中的廢除監察院是否合宜，在野黨委員是不是要跟上民進黨長期以來的主張，五權變三權，其實這個年會也扮演了非常重要的角色。我這樣的理解，您認同嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：完全認同，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以它不是只有人權的分享，還有國際各國存有監察制度的國家對於現存制度很多優劣資訊的分享。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，因為這是難得的監察的國際組織，在監察組織裡面，除了人權以外，民主還有善治都是非常重要的核心理念，所以透過這樣子的交流，其實能夠讓有關監察權的提升，是非常有幫助的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以監察權在臺灣是存是廢、如何精進，或者要如何做調配，我認為這樣的年會可以作為我們立法院修憲委員會很重要的意見參照。","最後，依據預算法第二十二條授權，監察院除了今天750萬這個是先打頭陣，後面我們送出來七千九百多萬的爭取恢復、動二的是可以幫助你們哪些部分不再被癱瘓？"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為這次被刪減的預算，比如一般行政是完全刪除，調查、巡察也是完全刪除。調查、巡察一定是運用於相關的巡迴監察跟調查職權的行使，另外還有議事業務等等。我們有非常仔細盤點，如果這樣一個比例的七千九百萬，是能夠讓監察職權一直到今（114）年底……"],["吳委員思瑤：基本上還可以勉為運作。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，當一天和尚撞一天鐘，我想這些監察委員這段時間受限於預算被刪減而沒有辦法履行他們的憲政義務、憲政忠誠的職責，監委們大家也心急如焚，我除了支持750萬的APOR年會的預算恢復，嚴格來講它不叫預算恢復，是說用動二來支應，那我也支持你們後續七千九百多萬的預算執行，爭取必要的運作，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝思瑤。","接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5068d9d125dcd864ea88be1699f4405fe9f06770f1b1beefe103b03e28eaf265d4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:07:10 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已經兩年了"},{"start":186.039,"end":190.843,"text":"現在進行到哪一步你這個作業程序的九步裡頭走到哪一步我會請國家安全委員會執行秘書來說明"},{"start":197.155,"end":212.403,"text":"謝謝委員有關委員垂詢的有關這個金門的這個過往遭軍方還有政府強徵土地這個案子那這個案子我們很關心所以在112年的1月16號那人權會這邊有做一個正式的決議就是針對這個委員所垂詢的這個案件那我們就有講到說因為它會涉及到公有的這個就是財產權的保障還有土地正義的問題所以呢這個案子會納入到我們未來土地正義系統性發展"},{"start":226.81,"end":234.517,"text":"那現在是114年嘛 那是112年的決定嘛現在就是以前的未來那現在進度到哪裡 人權委員會對於這個土地正義進度到哪裡是 謝謝那委員跟您報告就是後來113年我們就起了一個委託研究案那就是盤整整個國內我知道 你趕快一個時間請問這個程序你走到哪裡了對 那因為114年其實我們本來也是要啟動一個就是針對這部分要做系統性的一個調查案"},{"start":255.934,"end":282.45,"text":"你們走到哪裡啊?都沒有動是不是?因為我們的114年的預算後來就是被刪掉了那113咧?113就是我們齊了這個113我們就做了委託研究案然後已經對外公佈委託研究案的結果所以來你給我一個完整的書面答覆我表示都沒有在做事嘛因為我們時間結束了我們委託研究案已經完畢了所以你告訴我你的這個系統性調查走到哪裡喔?書面報告給我喔來書面報告給我喔因為我還要問別的問題啊"},{"start":284.691,"end":313.786,"text":"還有這個有兩位監委賴貞昌跟敏玉榮到金門巡查有很多土地案件金門的一些建設經費自帶水跟大橋的事情那後期的有一些定期的公開好像都沒有很多民眾澄清事件帶回去以後都沒有回來啊這個部分也是不是你們是不是對我們金門縣政府或是我們金門縣的民眾的澄清案件都不搭那個跟委員說明其實就是因為監察院監察院的調查巡查費用是完全被刪除不是 今年嘛 刪除是"},{"start":316.49,"end":324.905,"text":"去年去年去年1.2.1.3那個我說不是今年的事情我們就看你們以前執行怎麼樣因為監察人常常去嘛"},{"start":326.151,"end":337.36,"text":"你不要跟我講就是你們做得不夠好我們才會去刪預算啊如果做得很好當然我們希望趕快做啊剛剛我跟你說那個順序都沒有告訴我做到哪裡啊反正只想開會嘛跟國際人士開會啊對不對跟國家像花錢請世界各地人來開會好事不是不好問題你們該做的事情沒有做啊來主計總數來因為現在16秒停一下喔15秒"},{"start":350.877,"end":365.844,"text":"這個我要問的是事實上剛好看其他委員有問過了就是這個有關法律問題預算法第二水條第二項這個如果要用這個第二頁備金第70條也有說我看剛剛也有回答林德夫委員但是我看起來也是不符合要動用的這個條款啊"},{"start":366.912,"end":395.897,"text":"就是70條預算法第70條第一項有三款理由要動用這個第二倍均啊我們看這個監察院這個會議並沒有符合任何一款啊所以我們贏的是22條沒錯22條是說經立法院同意這個我也知道這一條但在前提是你要先符合資格才可以送來立法院經立法院同意啊那是成就的條件立法院成就條件是22條沒錯如果立法院同意就過了嘛問題是怎麼樣可以進入二倍均的使用有這三項啊 原列計畫啊"},{"start":397.558,"end":414.635,"text":"原列計劃事實需要不足的時候原列計劃增加業務沒有嘛沒有增加業務正式需要必須臨時也不是臨時因為早就略了被刪除而已原列計劃因事實需要奉主修訂也沒有你要先符合70條才可以去用20就是你要先符合資格嘛資格是70條然後才去做22條的啊"},{"start":417.738,"end":430.949,"text":"其實條是屬於授權行政院先動之再被查但是22條是沒有授權一定要立法院同意才可以動之我覺得這根本不是來用第二預備金不過沒關係因為這件事情大家也是合議的只是跟你們講說"},{"start":437.895,"end":455.844,"text":"這個監察院重點是 最後一句話 監察院人權委員會有關金門的這個事項 調查的事項還有這個土地爭議 我們已經在一本一十人的決議你們要做 再不做的話怕你們以後也沒機會做了好 謝謝主席在這裡做成決議 這個我們的人權委員會 你們的一個進度必須要給陳一貞委員好 謝謝 接著請吳世耀委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":639,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時6分）謝謝主席，先請監察院的代理秘書長。"],["主席：好，請監察院王代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：王秘書長，請教一下你們今天來要有關國家人權業務的錢，對吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：不是。"],["陳委員玉珍：是要750萬去開會的那個嘛？"],["王代理秘書長增華：不是，我們是主辦APOR的年會。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但是跟人權有關的嘛，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：沒有，這是監察院……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是這個嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是監察院參加國際組織。"],["陳委員玉珍：主要是「2025年第37屆紐澳及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研討會」，這不是跟人權有關嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，這議題裡……"],["陳委員玉珍：今天不是討論這個嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：議題裡有牽涉到人權。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：所以這是我們會議的名稱。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，會議名稱就是跟人權有相關的嘛？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：監察院有人權委員會這個單位，對吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：監察院在109年8月1日有設立國家人權委員會。"],["陳委員玉珍：國家人權委員會的領導是誰啊？"],["王代理秘書長增華：它的主任委員是……"],["陳委員玉珍：是誰？"],["王代理秘書長增華：本院的院長。"],["陳委員玉珍：主任委員是院長喔？"],["王代理秘書長增華：本院的院長。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長不是身體不舒服嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個要怎麼開啊？你們有在開嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們都有正常地開會。"],["陳委員玉珍：除了主任委員，還有其他什麼人員？"],["王代理秘書長增華：總共有10位委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：10位委員喔？"],["王代理秘書長增華：每年有10位委員，有7位是常任……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們的國家人權委員會除了院長以外，還有多少人呢？"],["王代理秘書長增華：還有10位。"],["陳委員玉珍：還有其他10位就對了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，包括院長是10位。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以有沒有主任委員沒差就對了？沒有影響吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，還有副主任委員及其他監察委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：副主任委員是誰呢？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這年度是王幼玲委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：王委員是副主任委員？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK。秘書長在人權委員會有擔任什麼職位嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：沒有，我們是列席人員。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以監察院現在只有副院長，院長身體不舒服休息很久了，秘書長是由你代理的嘛？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以對你們的運作有什麼影響嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們副院長對外有說明過，在這樣的情況之下，監察權還是要落實地執行，澈底地對外……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，要執行啦！但是沒院長也沒差，你看你們要開這個國際的人權會議，到時候誰要來主持啊？你們的院長也是人權委員會主任委員，但都不在啊！請問一下，你們要開這個國際的人權會議，我們是主辦單位，我理解啦！我們當然也是歡迎世界各地來開這個會議來彰顯……但是除了跟世界各地這樣交流以外，我想了解一下，你們人權委員會有一個系統性調查的作業程序，對吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：112年的時候，我們在總預算裡有做一個決議事項，你看一下螢幕，112年監察院預算的國家人權業務裡編了一億多嘛！那時候我們有做一個決議，就是對於金門過往遭軍方強徵土地，事後卻無法還地於民之相關事件，監察院人權委員會應該在委員會提案就本案進行系統性之調查。然後你看你們的系統性調查，當然有一些議題選定、派誰去、調查訪問等等，已經兩年了，現在進行到哪一步，作業程序的九步驟裡走到哪一步？有關金門的部分……"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，我可不可以請國家人權委員會執行秘書來說明？"],["陳委員玉珍：可以。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：謝謝委員。有關委員垂詢金門過往遭軍方還有政府強徵土地的這個案子，這個案子我們很關心，在112年1月16日，人權會有做一個正式的決議，就是針對委員垂詢的案件，因為它涉及財產權的保障還有土地正義的問題，所以這個案子未來會納入土地正義系統性訪查研究議題……"],["陳委員玉珍：未來？現在是114年，那是112年的決議，現在就是以前的未來，現在進度到哪裡？人權委員會對於金門這個土地正義，進度到哪裡？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：委員，跟您報告。113年我們起了一個委託研究案，就是盤整整個國內的……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我知道，請趕快，因為時間有限，請問這個程序走到哪裡了？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：因為114年其實我們本來也是針對這部分要啟動一個系統性的調查案……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們走到哪裡啊？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：因為我們後來就是114年的……"],["陳委員玉珍：都沒有動，是不是？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：因為我們114年的預算後來被刪掉了。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是114，那113呢？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：113就是我們起了這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：那是112決議的！你去年在做什麼？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：113我們做了委託研究案，也已經對外公布委託研究案的結果……"],["陳委員玉珍：你給我一個完整的書面答復，表示都沒有在做事嘛！因為我們今天時間很短。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：委託研究案已經完畢了，要準備進到系統性……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你告訴我系統性調查走到哪裡？書面報告給我。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：114年就是沒有預算……"],["陳委員玉珍：書面報告給我，因為我還要問別的問題。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：好，我們再補充。"],["陳委員玉珍：有兩位監委，賴振昌跟林郁容到金門巡查很多土地案件、金門的一些建設經費、自來水跟大橋的事情，後期有一些定期的公開……好像都沒有啊！很多民眾陳情事件帶回去以後都沒有回來，這個部分是不是你們是對金門縣政府或是金門縣民眾的陳情案件都不大那個……"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，其實就是因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有要處理？"],["王代理秘書長增華：監察院的調查巡察費用是完全被刪除，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是今年嘛！刪除是今年114年！去年、去年、去年，112、113那個……我說的不是今年的事情，我們就在看你們以前執行的怎麼樣，因為監察委員常常去嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們1年要去2次。"],["陳委員玉珍：你不要跟我講……就是你們做得不夠好，我們才會刪預算，如果做得很好，我們當然希望趕快做。剛剛我跟你說的那個順序，都沒有告訴我做到哪裡？反正只想開會嘛！跟國際人士開會啊！對不對？花錢請世界各地的人來開會是好事，不是不好！問題是你們該做的事情沒有做啊！","請主計總處。因為剩下16秒，停一下15秒。我要問的事實上剛剛其他委員也問過了，就是有關法律問題，預算法第二十二條第二項，如果要用第二預備金，第七十條也有說了，你剛剛有回答林德福委員，但是我看起來也是不符合要動用的條款。預算法第七十條第一項，有三款理由要動用第二預備金，監察院這個會議並沒有符合任何一款。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，我們引的是第二十二條，並不是引第七十條……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，第二十二條是說經立法院同意，我也知道這一條，但前提是要先符合資格才可以送來立法院經立法院同意，那個是成就的條件，立法院成就條件是第二十二條沒錯，如果立法院同意就過了。不過怎麼樣可以進入二備金的使用，有這三項：原列計畫事實需要不足的時候；原列計畫增加業務，沒有嘛！沒有增加業務；政事需要必須臨時，也不是臨時，因為早就列了，被刪除而已；原列計畫因事實需要奉准修訂，也沒有。要先符合第七十條才可以去引用第二十二條，就是要先符合資格嘛！資格是第七十條，然後才去做第二十二條，所以我覺得你們根本就不應該送這個過來。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，第七十條是屬於授權行政院先動支再備查，但是第二十二條是沒有授權，一定要立法院同意才可以動支，所以我們引的是第二十二條……"],["陳委員玉珍：我覺得這個根本就不應該用第二預備金，不過沒關係，因為今天大家也是合議，只是跟你們說監察院重點是，最後一句話，重點是監察院的人權委員會有關金門調查的事項還有土地爭議，已經在112年決議你們要做啊！再不做的話，怕你們以後也沒機會做了，謝謝。"],["主席：主席在這裡作成決議：人權委員會的進度必須給陳玉珍委員，謝謝。","接著請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162899","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162899","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db50640f8b99432cead188be1699f4405fe9f06770f1b1beefe10739ca4563886b2115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:59:19 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今年度你們的預算是10.97億那其中人事費是8億多然後這個業務費是2億4237萬但是被刪掉了96%左右這個刪掉了2億3181萬那所以呢 這邊有一張表"},{"start":24.81,"end":44.021,"text":"這個應該是正確的啦因為這個是你們副院長召開記者會的這個表格啦所以一般行政百分之百刪除了義事業務百分之百刪除了調查巡查業務百分之百刪除了然後財產申報凍結百分之六十一請問一下這有解凍了嗎有解凍了齁那國家人權業務"},{"start":45.983,"end":55.35,"text":"3減了97%那營建工程動32%有解凍了嗎已經解凍所以我們今天要看的這個預算就是在這個1856萬裡面的義式業務是不是"},{"start":59.652,"end":81.354,"text":"那請問一下那這個監察院除了這個要用二倍金之外還有沒有什麼其他的預算要用到二倍金因為監察院的相關預算被煽動得很嚴重所以那為了維持監察院的相關職權的運作所以我們還有另外再申請動之第二餘倍金有多少7900萬"},{"start":83.553,"end":89.923,"text":"七千九百萬是好我看這個那這個就要請這個我們主席總書的這個副主席長"},{"start":100.09,"end":126.399,"text":"那請教一下副主席長這個監察院除了今天這一筆750萬之外要動到二倍金我看他們還有提出的需求是7968萬這個也要用到二倍金那當然是要含這750萬嘛那我先請教一下齁這個750萬當初這個在野黨要刪除預算的時候你有沒有去跟他們講說這個750萬是今天今年要在台北辦這個APPLE的這個年會"},{"start":128.291,"end":150.968,"text":"我先問一下這個應該是我們代理秘書長在司法法制委員會審查的時候其實我們都會盡量的說明可是因為是全署保留出委員會所以沒有審查沒有審查然後就直接到了這個院會的時候就直接就被刪掉了就是"},{"start":151.997,"end":165.463,"text":"因為這個是含在這個議事業務費裡面嘛百分之百被刪除了嘛1856萬嘛 對不對所以你們當初也有跟在野黨委員講說這750萬是今年要在台北辦這個年會的有"},{"start":167.745,"end":182.806,"text":"所以又繞了一大圈嘛去年你們有跟他講今年初有跟他們講然後呢結果被全數刪除了那因為九月份要辦了嘛九月份要辦了今天再來我們這個財政和司法法制聯席會議希望用到二倍金嘛"},{"start":183.226,"end":198.405,"text":"那我早上聽了在野黨的委員的說法應該是會支持我也希望沒有意外但是我就覺得說何必繞這一圈呢明明已經知道說這筆預算就今年一定要用那就辦的這一個年會之前"},{"start":199.526,"end":219.564,"text":"就答應人家今年要在台灣舉辦那結果呢繞了一圈那今年再做這個要求這個要用到二倍金我覺得如果省預算好好省的話這筆預算就不應該刪除掉啦那我再請問一下副組長除了監察院的這個七千九百六十八萬之外"},{"start":222.207,"end":229.275,"text":"還有總統府、行政院、不當的當餐、慣例委員會都有提出二倍金的需求是不是?是,總共1.5億1億5541萬對"},{"start":234.54,"end":262.067,"text":"我看總統府他們是這個需要416萬不到當場委員會504萬行政院是6652萬監察院是7968萬監察院剛剛有提過了嘛那我看了一下那我先問一下程旭 復委了沒有就我的了解已經復委了那就等安排就等安排那因為這一筆是九月份要辦所以我們就先拿出來單獨先做處理就對了"},{"start":262.967,"end":289.182,"text":"那剩下的還要再排我看這個除了司法內政那當然我們財政嘛對不對三個委員會三個委員會再辦一次二倍金的這個預算對我看一下總統府他的預算其實蠻可憐的水電費這是這個應該是這個憲兵營他們用的然後呢行政院"},{"start":290.978,"end":319.284,"text":"這個需要六千六百多萬呢有很多的是這個給我們的這個地方的這個聯合服務的中心的業務嘛然後不當常常管理委員會五百零四萬這是跟人民權利回覆相關審查案件需要的那監察院就更多了七千九百多萬因為你們當初被砍得太慘了啦那我也希望說這一筆預算除了今天希望順利通過之外那我也希望說接下來"},{"start":320.416,"end":343.905,"text":"關於這個總統府行政院、監察院、不當當場管理委員會的這個預算、二倍金都能夠順利來通過了那我再請問一下,副主席長請回我請問一下代理秘書長我看你們的報告裡面,除了這個會議之外那還有一個會議是這個這要去哪裡啊?伊比利"},{"start":347.559,"end":371.189,"text":"我看一下今年要赴秘魯是不是啊伊比利美洲監察使聯盟年會有這個嗎這個是另外一個國際組織就是FIOFEAR我們去年是從觀察員的身份變成正式會員要去秘魯出席年會"},{"start":371.849,"end":391.429,"text":"可是目前這筆不在750萬裡面這個年會是這個伊比利美洲監察史聯盟這個是不是FEAR年會這是哪時候這是預計10月9號10月9號跟10號再密錄所以我們有答應要去了"},{"start":393.162,"end":406.788,"text":"要看有沒有經費人家有邀請我們去參加我們現在也是會員那所以本來也在這個業務費裡面是 2009年裡面我們有放進去是多少錢201萬5000元201萬5000元沒有這次一起提出來這次沒有應該一起提出來我相信在野黨不會反對才對啦"},{"start":421.109,"end":444.312,"text":"所以你們就包在你們下次要提的這個二倍鏡裡面就對了我是希望說不管是來台灣舉辦這個國際年會或是我們去參加這個年會其實都是用中華民國的名義出去那也是這一個讓全世界各國知道說中華民國台灣要走出去我也希望說這筆預算能夠順利的來通過"},{"start":445.313,"end":447.555,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝戴琳秘書長好 謝謝昆禪 接著請陳益臻委員質詢謝謝主席 先請監察院"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":562,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時59分）謝謝召委。我們先請監察院的代理秘書長。"],["主席：請王代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：代理秘書長，請問一下，剛剛有問到今年度你們的預算是10.97億。"],["王代理秘書長增華：10.97億。"],["李委員坤城：其中人事費是八億多，業務費是2億4,237萬，但是被刪掉96%左右，刪掉了2億3,181萬。這邊有一張表，這個應該是正確的。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["李委員坤城：因為這是你們副院長召開記者會提出的表格，所以一般行政百分之百刪除了；議事業務100%刪除了；調查巡察業務100%刪除及財產申報凍結61%，請問一下，這有解凍了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：有解凍。"],["李委員坤城：有解凍了。國家人權業務刪減了97%、營建工程凍32%，有解凍了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：已經解凍。"],["李委員坤城：解凍了。所以我們今天要看的這個預算，就是在這1,856萬裡的議事業務，是不是？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["李委員坤城：再請問一下，監察院除了這個要用二備金之外，還有沒有什麼其他的預算要用到二備金？"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為監察院的相關預算被刪凍得很嚴重，為了維持監察院相關職權的運作，所以我們還有另外再申請動支第二預備金。"],["李委員坤城：有多少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：7,900萬。"],["李委員坤城：7,900萬。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，請我們主計總處的副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下副主計長，監察院除了今天這一筆750萬之外，要動到二備金，我看他們還有提出的需求是7,968萬。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["李委員坤城：這個也要用到二備金，當然是有含這750萬嘛！我先請教一下這750萬，當初在野黨要刪除預算的時候，你有沒有去跟他們講這個750萬是今年要在臺北辦APOR的年會？我先問一下代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，在司法及法制委員會審查的時候，其實我們都會儘量地說明，可是因為是全數保留出委員會，所以沒有審查。"],["李委員坤城：沒有審查就直接到了院會的時候，就直接被刪掉了。"],["王代理秘書長增華：對。"],["李委員坤城：因為這是含在議事業務費裡，100%被刪除了嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["李委員坤城：1,856萬，對不對？所以你們當初也有跟在野黨委員講這750萬是今年要在臺北辦這個年會的？"],["王代理秘書長增華：有。"],["李委員坤城：有，所以又繞了一大圈嘛！去年你們有跟他們講，今年初也有跟他們講，結果被全數刪除了，因為9月份要辦了嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["李委員坤城：9月份要辦了，今天再來財政、司法及法制聯席會議希望能用到二備金嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["李委員坤城：我早上聽了在野黨委員的說法，應該是會支持，我也希望沒有意外，但是我覺得何必繞這一圈呢？明明已經知道這筆預算是今年一定要用，之前就答應人家今年要在臺灣舉辦，結果繞了一圈，今年再要求要用到二備金，我覺得如果審預算好好審的話，這筆預算就不應該刪除掉。","我再請問一下副主計長，除了監察院的7,968萬之外，還有總統府、行政院及不當黨產處理委員會都有提出二備金的需求，是不是？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，總共1.5億。"],["李委員坤城：1億5,541萬？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["李委員坤城：我看總統府是需要416萬、不當黨產委員會504萬、行政院是6,652萬及監察院是7,968萬，監察院剛剛有提過了嘛！我看了一下，先問一下程序，付委了沒有？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就我的了解已經付委了，就等安排。"],["李委員坤城：就等安排。因為這筆是9月份要辦，所以我們就先拿出來單獨先做處理就對了，剩下的還要再排，我看除了司法、內政，當然還有我們財政，對不對？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：有3個委員會。"],["李委員坤城：3個委員會再辦一次二備金的預算？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["李委員坤城：我看一下總統府的預算其實也蠻可憐的，水電費應該是憲兵營他們用的，行政院需要六千六百多萬，有很多是給我們地方的聯合服務中心嘛！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["李委員坤城：不當黨產管理委員會504萬，這是跟人民權利回復相關審查案件需要的，監察院就更多了，七千九百多萬，因為你們當初被砍得太慘了，我也希望這一筆預算，除了希望今天順利通過之外，我也希望接下來關於總統府、行政院、監察院及不當黨產管理委員會的二備金都能夠順利通過。副主計長請回。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：請問一下代理秘書長，我看你們的報告裡面，除了這個會議之外，還有一個會議是今年要赴秘魯出席伊比利美洲監察使聯盟年會，有這個嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，這個是另外一個國際組織，就是FIO，我們去年是從觀察員的身分變成正式會員，今年要去秘魯出席年會，可是目前這一筆不在750萬裡，我們還沒有……"],["李委員坤城：這年會是伊比利美洲監察使聯盟，FIO聯會，這是哪時候的？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是預計10月9日。"],["李委員坤城：10月9日？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟10月10日在秘魯。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們有答應要去了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：要看有沒有經費，因為我們……"],["李委員坤城：人家有邀請我們去參加了嘛？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們現在也是會員。"],["李委員坤城：對，所以本來也在這筆業務費裡面？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["李委員坤城：是多少錢？"],["王代理秘書長增華：在7,900萬裡面，我們有放進去。"],["李委員坤城：是多少錢？"],["王代理秘書長增華：201萬5,000元。"],["李委員坤城：200萬？"],["王代理秘書長增華：201萬5,000元。"],["李委員坤城：沒有在這次一起提出來？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這次沒有。"],["李委員坤城：應該一起提出來，我相信在野黨不會反對才對啦！所以你們就包在下次要提的二備金裡面就對了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，在7,900萬裡面。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望不管是來臺灣舉辦國際年會，或是我們去參加年會，其實都是用中華民國的名義出去，也是讓全世界各國知道中華民國臺灣要走出去，我也希望這筆預算能夠順利地通過啦！謝謝。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席、謝謝代理秘書長。"],["主席：好，謝謝坤城。","接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db506a7b5a008633205358be1699f4405fe9f06770f1b1beefe1073d84130179852065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:51:25 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也非常好那我們從四年初我們初步的一個估計是5.37後來又拉到5.48那其實產業也提前拉貨就是我們的出口"},{"start":45.342,"end":62.215,"text":"那在第一季我們的GDP已經衝上了5.48了那為什麼就是說主計總署在評估今年的下半年的經濟情勢會不好是什麼原因為什麼主計總署這樣看壞下半年的經濟成長率呢"},{"start":63.696,"end":89.958,"text":"跟我們報告就是主要下半年是受到這個對等關稅的這個不確定性的因素的影響那當然年代就是說前上半年因為已經提前拉貨了所以這種種因素的影響所以會影響到下半年就是GDP的成長我們就會認為就是會比較沒有上半年那麼好"},{"start":90.718,"end":111.33,"text":"所以主計總署採取一個比較保守的一個看法 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這個會不會有過度保守呢"},{"start":113.264,"end":139.111,"text":"就是跟委員報就是我們GDP都會持續來滾動檢討那我們就是按計根據那個結果我們如果說原來的有一些不確定性因素比較確定的時候那有該需要調整我們就會來進行調整我們滾動式檢討啦所以說我們也密切的在觀察就是整個經濟的一個走向那我在這裡再跟"},{"start":139.931,"end":157.485,"text":"互助做一個探討就是地方補助款地方補助款應該納入財政均衡的一個條件其實從六都的統籌分配款裡頭我還是再重述一次就是台南市不僅是分配的最少那也是增加的最少"},{"start":159.147,"end":165.952,"text":"這個從今年那個這個月月初的時候我們在6月4號其實我也詢問過主計長在六個都的統籌分配款裡頭其實我們都看到了台南市在統籌分配款裡頭它其實分配最少增加最少"},{"start":176.599,"end":202.085,"text":"尤其是在一般性補助款還被刪了最多那如果我們從這個一般性補助那個補助款裡頭刪27%的這一個調整之下我們看到了台南還有就是高雄、彰化、屏東這四個縣市又被刪了最多這種齊頭是其實是非常的不合理不知道那個護座你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":202.685,"end":230.382,"text":"是跟文報就是原來我們制度設計的確就是說我是中央統籌這個統籌分配稅款加一半性補助把這兩個項目加在一起看來讓這個地方縣市之間可以均衡那所以補一半性補助款就是來就是說調整那個統籌分配稅那邊的部分我想你也知道這個這個方式其實是"},{"start":231.383,"end":256.077,"text":"不是最好的一個方法那我們其實基本上你們現在也在研擬一個比較好的方式那我們再回到就是今天就是監察院這個750萬這個750萬的這個預算那監察院要動用到第二億倍金那動用到第二億倍金其實常態性我們都是會在下半年來動用這個一倍金那"},{"start":257.068,"end":284.302,"text":"如果你認為說監察院他現在在這個750萬動用第二一倍金他的合理性在哪裡主要在於因為他是全數被刪減所以的確讓他的業務無法推動所以因為九月初就要來舉辦了所以我們認為就是應該就是依我22預算法22條來經行這份同意後來動之第二一倍金"},{"start":284.662,"end":312.18,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝副主席長接著我們請王代理秘書長我想秘書長那個副主席講得非常清楚就是說在這個審計部的預算裡頭你們一年的預算有多少十億十億點你一年的預算有多少十點九你一年的預算有多少十點九"},{"start":317.916,"end":340.444,"text":"10.97億10.97億對然後稅出稅入這些預算你有沒有看清楚我想齁這個Miu長是你今天給我們的你是要來尋求我們同意嘛對不對是的齁支持你們的提案嘛是那我們看得出來就是說你的那個報告其實只有"},{"start":342.317,"end":370.531,"text":"這個不會超過 我相信不會超過五百個字啊那後來你又補上了這一個附件就是說這個在整個年會裡頭所有的細則 詳細的一個資料那我們也知道說在國內其實辦這樣的一個活動是我們台灣的一個光榮那我們也一定要支持你那可是你們提出來的就是這麼少的一個資料"},{"start":372.125,"end":385.279,"text":"這個實在是讓我們有點尷尬這跟委員說明這你看過嗎 你看過嗎是的 是的你看過你還拿出來是是委員因為那是你知道今天要來備詢那你也同意這樣的資料出來"},{"start":387.247,"end":406.017,"text":"因為那是我的口頭報告妳同意嗎 妳同意我們檢討 因為真的是非常希望立法院能夠支持然後那我們有報告不足的地方我們知道妳的預算非常少 預算非常少妳光是一個衛福部的預算就要2800億的"},{"start":408.158,"end":434.565,"text":"那這麼少的預算要做這麼多的一個事情當然你們有你們的一個困境可是如果像這樣子這麼消極的態度其實我想我們應該要做很多很多的一個努力啦那當然就是說沿著上這個750萬我也當然是支持那我想在這裡再特別提醒監察院我們應該做更多的一個修正做更多的一個努力好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":437.137,"end":437.598,"text":"我們謝謝賴會員的召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":513,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時51分）謝謝主席，請主計總處副主計長跟監察院代理秘書長。"],["主席：請副主計長跟代理秘書長。"],["賴委員惠員：副主計長好。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：從去年的統計，我們可以看到全民的經濟成長率從4.59%提高到4.84%，這是去年的數據，我們人均GDP也達到3.4萬美金。今年第一季的經濟成長率其實也非常好，從年初初步的估計是5.37%，後來又拉到5.48%，其實產業也提前拉貨，助攻我們的出口，在第一季我們的GDP已經衝上了5.48%，為什麼主計總處評估今年的下半年經濟情勢會不好？是什麼原因，為什麼主計總處看壞下半年的經濟成長率呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，主要下半年是受到對等關稅不確定性因素的影響，連帶上半年因為已經提前拉貨了，所以種種因素的影響，會影響到下半年GDP的成長，我們就會認為比較沒有上半年那麼好。"],["賴委員惠員：所以主計總處採取一個比較保守的看法跟作法，是不是這樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，主要還是在於有很多的不確定性。"],["賴委員惠員：你們預期下半年可能狀況比較不好？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，這個會不會過度保守呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，我們的GDP都會持續來滾動檢討，就是按季根據那個結果，如果原來一些的不確定性因素比較確定的時候，有該需要調整的地方，我們就會進行調整。"],["賴委員惠員：有滾動式檢討啦，所以我們也密切的在觀察整個經濟的走向。我再跟副座探討，地方補助款應該納入財政均衡的一個條件，其實六都的統籌分配款裡頭，我還是要再重述一次，臺南市不僅分配的最少，也是增加的最少。今年這個月月初的時候，6月4號其實我也詢問過主計長，在六都的統籌分配款裡頭，我們都看到了臺南市其實分配最少、增加最少，尤其是一般性補助款還被刪了最多，如果我們從一般性補助款裡頭刪27%的調整之下，我們看到了臺南、高雄、彰化、屏東這四個縣市又被刪了最多，這種齊頭式其實是非常的不合理，不知道副座你的看法是怎樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，原來我們的制度設計，的確就是中央統籌分配稅款加一般性補助，把這兩個項目加在一起讓地方縣市之間可以均衡，所以一般性補助款就是用來調整統籌分配稅那邊的部分。"],["賴委員惠員：副座，我想你也知道這個方式其實不是最好的一個方法，基本上你們現在也在研擬一個比較好的方式。","我們再回到今天監察院這750萬的預算，監察院要動用到第二預備金，而動用第二預備金，其實常態性我們都是會在下半年動用預備金，你認為監察院現在動用第二預備金750萬的合理性在哪裡？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，主要在於因為它是全數被刪減，所以的確讓它的業務無法推動，但因為9月初就要舉辦了，因此我們認為依照預算法第二十二條規定經立法院同意後動支第二預備金。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：接著請王代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：秘書長，副座講得非常清楚，就是在審計部的預算裡頭，你們一年的預算有多少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：10億。"],["賴委員惠員：你一年的預算有多少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：10.9。"],["賴委員惠員：你一年的預算有多少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：10.97億。"],["賴委員惠員：10.97億？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：歲出、歲入這些預算你有沒有看清楚？秘書長，今天你給我們的是要來尋求我們的同意嘛，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["賴委員惠員：支持你們的提案。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：我們看得出來你的報告，我相信這不會超過500個字，後來你又補上了這個附件，就是整個年會的所有細則、詳細的資料，我們也知道在國內辦這樣一個活動是我們臺灣的光榮，我們也一定要支持你，可是你們提出來的就是這麼少的資料，這個實在是讓我們有點尷尬。"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明……"],["賴委員惠員：這你看過嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的、是的。"],["賴委員惠員：你看過，你還拿出來？"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，因為那是……"],["賴委員惠員：你知道今天要來備詢，你也同意拿這樣的資料出來？"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為那是我的口頭報告……"],["賴委員惠員：你同意嗎？你同意？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們檢討。因為真的非常希望立法院能夠支持，我們有報告不足的地方會再檢討。"],["賴委員惠員：我們知道你們的預算非常少，光是一個衛福部的預算就要2,800億了，這麼少的預算要做這麼多的事情，當然你們有你們的困境，可是如果像這樣這麼消極的態度，我想應該還要做很多很多的努力。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：原則上這750萬我當然是支持，我想在這裡再特別提醒監察院應該做更多的修正、做更多的努力，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員召委。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：謝謝李坤城委員。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162897","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5065dab368e89f2ab0d8be1699f4405fe9f5dc299e2380ced3f0911e5930497b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:43:52 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那我要講就是說其實因為這個都已經引發了中央政府跟地方政府對於相關的案子的這個嚴重的這個有嚴重的爭議那我認為說其實監察院應該要出來了解"},{"start":260.259,"end":285.17,"text":"主動調查是不是行政院以及他的這個相關的機關有一些違法的這個決定啊那麼監察院本來就有立案派查原則但我認為說其實有些案子基本上已經符合監察院可以自己主動申請監察委員可以主動申請調查這些原則包含行政違失或是有沒有濫用職權自以妄為等等會侵犯到基本人權的這些"},{"start":286.671,"end":315.638,"text":"條件這個部分的話我希望監察院能夠主動調查那另外本席還在另外再舉發一個案子就是NCC委員的名單行政院到目前為止一直也沒送出依照規定他其實早應該要送出第一波的名單他已經撤回撤回之後當時行政院長有承諾說4月5月就要提出到現在為止也沒有提出因為行政院院長的不提出NCC委員的名單以至於讓NCC內部無法運作"},{"start":316.458,"end":334.97,"text":"這難道不是一個嚴重的違法失職嗎對監察委員是不是應該監察院應該也要主動去了解相關的這個決定者有沒有違法失職我剛剛說明就是有關NCC的運作的部分其實監察院有蠻多的調查案可是就是"},{"start":335.47,"end":340.251,"text":"所以監察院已經有開始進行調查了嗎可是委員說的人數不足沒有辦法換照這個issue呢目前是沒有然後呢要跟委員說明監察委員是依據法律獨立行使職權那委員要什麼時候調查調查什麼內容其實是各界是要遵守的但是呢我要這邊要提醒這個監察院的"},{"start":359.736,"end":377.461,"text":"就是因為這些都是眾所矚目的案子而且它會影響到整個行政機關運作但是單純因為行政院院長的不作為或是消極怠惰那導致一個機關沒有辦法好好的正常運作那我覺得這個問題是嚴重的那麼另外還有再舉發另外一個案子就是陸委會陸委會現在它也是擴大曲解法律的解釋在兩岸人民關係條例裡面"},{"start":387.263,"end":391.844,"text":"那麼他做了一些這個不當的解釋以至於就是造成整個的陸配早期就來台灣生活的陸配那麼以及就是出生在大陸的當時早就回來的台灣資質他們還必須要大費周章的跑回到大陸再去申請一個什麼這個無戶籍證明等等那麼我覺得這個部分其實也已經嚴重影響到我們台灣人民的這個權利"},{"start":414.13,"end":433.222,"text":"那麼事實上監察院也應該要主動的去調查但是你們都沒有做所以也請監察院應該要回去好好的去檢視現在大家社會上面眾所矚目的案子是不是應該要積極的來立案調查以上提供給秘書長請帶回去給監察委員們參考好 謝謝謝謝翁委員接下來我們請賴會員找委"},{"start":444.554,"end":444.735,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時43分）謝謝主席，我也是請王代理秘書長。"],["主席：請王代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：王副秘書長好。因為剛剛吳宗憲委員已經問過了有關於這次APOR會議的規劃，但在你們這次報告裡面呈現得非常簡略，我們也沒有看到你們相關的議程，以及各個部分經費的使用，我想這個是有必要在今天審查預算之前，你們就應該要把相關計畫規劃的議程以及費用明細表先提供給我們委員會這邊一份，你們是不是有可能在待會要討論之前就先送給我們大家委員們看？"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，沒問題，我們現在就準備。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那請你們可能要儘快去作業。"],["王代理秘書長增華：好的。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要請教的是，其實這段時間以來，大家對於監察院的表現都很不滿意，認為監察委員好像只是打蒼蠅、不打老虎，我們也知道賴清德總統上任這一年來，其實行政機關跟立法機關對抗的情況非常嚴重，往往立法院通過的法案或通過的預算案，行政院或是它其他部會就消極抵抗、不執法，也不依法行政，針對這個部分，其實監察院作為國家的最高監察機關，本來就有權要去主動調查公務人員以及政府機關的工作違失，若有涉嫌到違法失職的情況，並且可以立案調查，就是監察委員可以自己主動立案調查，必要的時候還可以成立彈劾案，請問副秘書長，在最近這一段時間，我們想請教，從賴政府執政以來，目前有多少案件是由立法委員自己主動申請調查的、自動立案調查？"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員是講監察委員嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：對，監察委員。"],["王代理秘書長增華：從賴政府……是今年？"],["翁委員曉玲：對，就今年以來。"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，就是第6屆、109年8月1號開始所成立的調查案有1,194件，然後中間依照監察法施行細則第二十四條主動立案調查的超過六成。"],["翁委員曉玲：這樣好了，因為我大概也看了一下，你們這一年來，其實監察委員主動立案調查，大概就是四、五十件，並不多，就監察委員自己申請調查的部分。若不是這樣，之後請你們再給我詳細的數字。","簡單來說，像這段時間立法院通過了原住民的禁伐補償條例，本來要給原住民的禁伐補償金，可是行政院根本不編列預算，也不發給。立法院之前通過了114年的預算，明明就是要給地方政府一般性補助款的法定預算，我們一毛錢也沒有刪，可是行政院可以說不給就不給，像這樣嚴重引發爭議的案子，請問目前為止，有沒有任何一位監察委員申請自動調查？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，有關於原住民補償金的部分，不是目前這個角度，可是有類似的調查案，有關於補償金的部分，然後另外是8,000名……"],["翁委員曉玲：就是636億行政院刪除地方一般性補助款的部分。"],["王代理秘書長增華：那個目前沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那我要講的是，其實因為這都已經引發了中央政府跟地方政府對於相關案子有嚴重的爭議，我認為監察院應該要出來了解，主動調查是不是行政院以及它的相關機關有一些違法的決定，監察院本來就有立案派查原則，我認為其實有些案子基本上已經符合監察院監察委員可以主動申請調查的這些原則，包含行政違失，或是有沒有濫用職權、恣意妄為等等，會侵犯到基本人權的這些條件，就這部分，我希望監察院能夠主動調查。","另外，本席還要再舉發一個案子，就是NCC委員的名單，行政院到目前為止一直沒送出，依照規定，它其實早應該要送出，第一波的名單已經撤回，撤回之後，當時行政院長有承諾4月、5月就要提出，到現在為止也沒有提出，因為行政院院長不提出NCC委員的名單，以至於讓NCC內部無法運作，這難道不是一個嚴重的違法失職嗎？監察委員、監察院是不是應該也要主動去了解相關的決定者有沒有違法失職？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我剛剛有說明關於NCC運作的部分，其實監察院有滿多的調查案，可是就是委員說的……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以監察院已經有開始進行調查了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可是委員說的人數不足，沒有辦法換照這個issue，目前是沒有，然後要跟委員說明，監察委員是依據法律獨立行使職權，委員要什麼時候調查、調查什麼內容，其實各界是要尊重的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我了解，但是我要提醒監察院，因為這些都是眾所矚目的案子，而且它會影響到整個行政機關運作，但是單純因為行政院院長的不作為，或是消極怠惰，導致一個機關沒有辦法好好的正常運作，我覺得這個問題是嚴重的。","另外，我再舉發另外一個案子，就是陸委會現在也是擴大曲解法律的解釋，在兩岸人民關係條例裡面，它做了一些不當的解釋，以至於造成早期就來臺灣生活的陸配，以及出生在大陸、當時早就回來的臺灣之子，他們還必須大費周章的跑回大陸再去申請一個無戶籍證明等等，我覺得這個部分其實也已經嚴重影響到我們臺灣人民的權利，事實上，監察院應該要主動去調查，但是你們都沒有做，所以請監察院回去應該要好好的檢視現在社會上面眾所矚目的案子，是不是應該要積極地立案調查？以上提供給秘書長，請帶回去給監察委員們參考，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝翁委員。","接下來請賴惠員召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db50672bfd002f65791eb8be1699f4405fe9f5dc299e2380ced3fa2f0af228fb527a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:33:10 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階級民選先不去論這個把它變回去民意機關嘛所以這兩條路都是國民黨覺得可以討論的並不存在剛剛講的那些很奇怪因為今天有人提案了這個之後"},{"start":122.088,"end":143.101,"text":"那民進黨不同意沒有關係或有意見也沒有關係啊大家可以拿出來討論但是回過頭去扯說2015年或2020年你沒有反對又怎麼樣我覺得那個沒有意思啊因為你去講歷史沒有用啊那你為什麼不講我們現在從善如流我就覺得民進黨當初說廢考今天我們舉雙手贊成"},{"start":146.023,"end":166.146,"text":"那你為什麼不說我們這個叫從善如流對啊 那為什麼要回過頭去說你當初就不要 你當初就反對啊 為什麼你今天可以要所以因為你當年反對 那所以我現在也說你說要廢考 今天這個事我不同意這個邏輯上就邏輯性死亡了"},{"start":167.012,"end":193.55,"text":"對啊 你當年你始終堅持廢除考試院 監察院那當年國民黨 以前的國民黨我不認識他們不同意但是今天新一代的國民黨認為說可以討論 可以去精簡我們優化監察權的行使而有一些改變這根本沒有問題啊那現在反而是有人跳出來拿歷史故事出來說當年你反對廢考監為什麼你現在便可以我覺得那個邏輯都錯誤啦"},{"start":195.371,"end":223.513,"text":"為什麼我們對於政策的想法不能改變反而是現在民進黨改變了他就變成說早年說要廢考今天現在這麼好用的監察權捨不得放掉我覺得這個才是核心的問題所以請聽清楚我們認為從善如流就是要優化監察權的行使兩個面向一個廢院一權第二個當然我們監察院繼續留著監察委員繼續留著但是改回早年無權憲法的想法讓他變成民意機關"},{"start":224.794,"end":242.366,"text":"這是國民黨想法 請大家不要再誤導國人了這是不應該的再回到今天的議題 我想請教一下今天750萬我已經說了我支持因為我認為這國家的顏面我絕對舉雙手贊成一定要支持我們國家的尊嚴但是750萬你們的報告只有55個字耶這個不對吧 而且細項都沒有 你就一個"},{"start":249.622,"end":265.179,"text":"你就現在我們PowerPoint上面看到的就這幾個字而已啊那詳細的細節我們都沒有看到這是我第一個要跟你們抗議的事情不能說因為今天我們想要支持你你就不當一回事對不對那你細項你怎麼沒有給我們"},{"start":266.817,"end":268.758,"text":"跟委員說明那因為口頭報告真的可能比較簡略那有關於750萬的細項我在這邊先再補充說明有關於第一項是有關於國外的講者還有貴賓他們的機票費大概是208萬"},{"start":283.064,"end":285.788,"text":"然後相關講者貴賓的住宿是95萬然後另外講者的交通費是72,000然後另外因為要有場地要有國際會議這樣的場地包括廠租設備佈置"},{"start":298.588,"end":311.105,"text":"還有餐飲等等是一百八十六萬然後同步口譯還有一些文化參訪等等是五十八萬兩千然後另外是文宣的資料的編譯費包括手冊包括譯程還有包括翻譯"},{"start":314.85,"end":343.118,"text":"負面醫院是花時間所以這給我一份報告我們不能接受750萬你就55個字就沒了好不好我必須知道錢怎麼用那第二個我想請教一下為什麼我看那個IOI的官網我們的年度報告在2022年之後就沒有了這是怎麼回事如果我們這麼重視這個會議的話那為什麼2022年之後就沒有我們的報告我看香港也都還有請教怎麼回事"},{"start":344.253,"end":372.88,"text":"跟委員說明基本上我們都有送這Annual Report我們都有送那可是可能官網還沒有放上去這個你沒有確定嗎我們監察院有送是他們官網沒放上我們有送我們絕對有送因為2022年2023年後面都沒看到耶但是我看到香港2022、2023都有耶對不對那這個部分你要給我們一個答案啊那還有一個問題喔就是"},{"start":374.008,"end":395.676,"text":"我覺得啦就是因為我看到你們的報告還有你剛剛其他委員的問題我們難得用中華民國這個名義去加入一個國際的組織對不對中華民國監察院好那可是我看了一下我上了他們的官網去看我找不到我只找到他們只有在這個那個奧紐區還有太平洋區裡面"},{"start":396.936,"end":411.065,"text":"只有一個監察院像譬如說香港他還會特別註明出來其他國家也會特別註明但是我們不見了你自己看這是他們官網上面的那你們有沒有去抗議過我覺得我現在是在替政府講話"},{"start":413.367,"end":441.505,"text":"謝謝委員這個如果這個再繼續往下點的話就會看到是中華民國監察院繼續點可是我們這個列表上面別的你自己看嘛我們去看一下這個列表上面其他國家或地區都有被特別標示出來唯獨我們中華民國的監察院他忘了標註那我沒有意見也許他們公網漏掉但是基於國家的尊嚴以及顏面是不是你們可以請"},{"start":442.906,"end":469.665,"text":"他們官網要把他簽上去不然你現在告訴我跟你們今天的報告我看完了以後貴院的報告上面寫我們難得用中華民國這個名義加入對不對那但是我看到他們的官網上面沒有嘛那沒有你跟我說點進去在某一個小地方有這就不對了因為列表才是重點啊是是是這一點我們會特別注意然後會去主張好 謝謝委員麻煩這個是我們國家顏面是是是"},{"start":471.927,"end":496.581,"text":"所以我跟你們說貴院的人權委員會我們上個禮拜在審那個新住民的法案的時候我們請他來他不來也沒有請假就丟了一個公文過來說不可出席原因是什麼也不講我想那個人權委員會並不適用4461號他沒有理由說不來那能不能回去請"},{"start":497.902,"end":511.616,"text":"副秘書長 轉告人權委員會不要這麼囂張今天立法院在審查法案這個跟一百萬的新住民有關你不要讓這一百萬的新住民覺得監察院就是看不起他們"},{"start":512.901,"end":528.822,"text":"如果今天依照憲政規定而不來我覺得我可以接受依照461不來我也可以接受但是你既然不屬於4.461的範圍內你就一句不客出席然後就不來了那你這麼看不起台灣有一百萬的新住民嗎"},{"start":530.683,"end":555.837,"text":"委員說明其實就我所知人權委員會是有正式的公文然後交給司法法治委員會副秘書長正式的公文你要經過召委的同意啊這可不可以麻煩你們了解一下今天沒有人同意他而且不管是各部會的首長來跟我們請假因為說明原因我們都是盡可能的都會同意"},{"start":556.457,"end":583.673,"text":"但是今天貴院的人權委員會他就一份公務過來我不想來不可出席然後這樣子這個完全不符合過往立法院的慣例所以可不可以請轉告不要這麼看不起別人新住民的人權也非常的重要所以不是人權委員會不用管啦好不好好這麻煩你那我也在這邊說明了拜託人權委員會的這位各位委員以及"},{"start":584.551,"end":598.49,"text":"主管不要看不起立法院立法院在審查的這些新住民他們不是外國人他們是中華民國的國民他們也有投票權他們也有參政權不要這樣子搞他們麻煩下一次請"},{"start":599.571,"end":624.804,"text":"人權委會來的時候要請他們過來沒辦法來請說明請假的理由讓召委判斷不管針對哪一黨都一樣不是一個公文來我不爽來就不來沒有那種事所以剛複密的這個答覆我沒有辦法接受不是他跟我講就算數好不好好 謝謝複密好 謝謝吳委員那接下來我們請翁小林委員那也麻煩這個代理秘書長剛剛那個750萬的這個項目喔信箱就發給每個這個出席委員好不好"},{"start":635.291,"end":635.599,"text":"好,謝謝主持人"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":446,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩副秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘書長早。最前面我先說明一下，就是有關這筆750萬元的部分，我個人是支持啦。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我昨天在跟國民黨其他委員開會的時候，我也是說服他們說，因為在我們自己國家內召開這種世界性組織的研討會，其實本來就應該要支持啦，所以我先說明一下，這是我的結論，但是中間有一些問題我還是要跟你們釐清楚。"],["王代理秘書長增華：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為剛剛也有很多人有提到幾個問題，但跟今天的議程沒有絕對的關聯性，我認為那有一點怪力亂神，所以我這邊先澄清一下，就是說已經到今天了，我們來討論750萬這個預算，不要趁這個機會又說什麼濫刪預算什麼的，如果會濫刪預算，今天我不會說在這邊……還有昨天開會的時候我就跟其他委員說，其實國家的顏面我們一定要支持到底，所以我覺得扯預算濫刪實在是很沒有意思啦，我覺得這是一個怪力亂神！","另外，剛剛其他委員有提到廢監察院一事，其實國民黨的態度是比較開放，我們覺得這是一個改革，所以我們公開說明是兩個方向，就監察權的改革是兩個方向：第一個是這次民眾黨所提的那個案子，就是說廢除監察院，把權力移到立法院，這是一個廢院移權；第二個，我們希望的就是讓監察委員回歸到早期五權憲法的規定，變成民意機關、變成民選，不管是直接民選、間接民選，先不去論這個，把它變回民意機關嘛！所以這兩條路都是國民黨覺得可以討論的，並不存在剛剛講的那些很奇怪的問題。今天有人提了這個案之後，民進黨不同意沒有關係，或者有意見也沒有關係，大家可以拿出來討論，但是回過頭去扯2015年或2020年你們又反對、又怎麼樣，我覺得那個沒有意思啊！因為去講歷史沒有用啊！那為什麼不講我們現在從善如流，就覺得民進黨當初說廢考監，我們舉雙手贊成，對不對？為什麼不說我們這個叫從善如流？為什麼要回過頭去說當初你們就不要、當初就反對，為什麼今天就可以要？因為當年反對，所以現在就說廢考監這個事不同意！這個在邏輯上就邏輯性死亡了！當年始終堅持廢除考試院、監察院，以前的國民黨我不認識，他們不同意，但是今天新一代的國民黨認為可以討論、可以去精簡，我們優化監察權的行使而有一些改變，這根本沒有問題啊！現在反而是有人跳出來拿歷史故事出來說當年反對廢考監，為什麼現在變可以？我覺得那個邏輯都錯誤！為什麼我們對於政策的想法不能改變？反而是現在民進黨改變了，變成早年說要廢考監，但現在覺得這麼好用的監察權捨不得放掉，我覺得這個才是核心的問題。","所以請聽清楚，我們認為從善如流就是要優化監察權的行使，兩個面向：第一個，廢院移權。第二個，當然監察院繼續留著、監察委員繼續留著，但是改回早年五權憲法的想法，讓它變成民意機關，這是國民黨的想法，請大家不要再誤導國人了，這是不應該的。","再來回到今天的議題，我想請教一下，今天的750萬我已經說了我支持，因為我認為這是國家的顏面，我絕對舉雙手贊成，一定要支持我們國家的尊嚴。但是對於750萬你們的報告只有55個字欸！這個不對吧？而且連細項都沒有，就只有現在我們在PowerPoint上面看到的這幾個字而已，詳細的細節我們都沒有看到，這是我第一個要跟你們抗議的事情！不能說因為今天我們想要支持你，你就不當一回事，對不對？細項怎麼沒有給我們？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，因為口頭報告真的可能比較簡略，有關於750萬的細項，我在這邊再補充說明。第一項是有關於國外的講者還有貴賓他們的機票費，大概是208萬；相關講者貴賓的住宿是95萬；講者的交通費是7萬2,000；因為要有場地，要有國際會議這樣的場地，包括場租、設備、布置還有餐飲等等是186萬；另外還有同步口譯及一些文化參訪等等是58萬2,000；然後是文宣資料的編印費，包括手冊、包括議程，還包括翻譯費……"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘，因為這個很花時間，所以給我一份報告。"],["王代理秘書長增華：沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不能接受750萬僅55個字就沒了，好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我必須知道錢怎麼用。"],["王代理秘書長增華：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：第二個我想請教一下，我看IOI官網，為什麼我們的年度報告在2022年之後就沒有了？這是怎麼回事？如果我們這麼重視這個會議的話，為什麼2022年之後官網就沒有我們的報告了？我看香港也都還有啊！請教是怎麼回事？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，基本上我們都有送，annual report我們都有送，可能是官網還沒有放上去……"],["吳委員宗憲：你有確定嗎？我們監察院有送，是他們官網沒放？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們有送，我們絕對有送。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為2022年、2023年，後面都沒看到欸！"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，我們都有送。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我看到香港2022、2023都有，對不對？關於這個部分你要給我們一個答案啊！"],["王代理秘書長增華：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有一個問題，因為我看到你們的報告，還有剛剛其他委員的問題，就是我們難得用中華民國這個名義去加入一個國際組織，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：中華民國監察院的名義。"],["吳委員宗憲：可是我上了他們的官網去看，我找不到，他們在澳紐區，還有太平洋區裡面只有一個監察院，譬如香港還會特別註明出來，其他國家也會特別註明，但是我們不見了，你自己看，這是他們官網上面的，那你們有沒有去抗議過？我覺得我現在是在替政府講話喔！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，謝謝委員。這個如果再繼續往下點的話就會看到是中華民國監察院。"],["吳委員宗憲：繼續點？"],["王代理秘書長增華：就是……"],["吳委員宗憲：可是這個列表上面你自己看，我們去看一下這個列表上面其他國家或地區都有被特別標示出來，唯獨我們中華民國的監察院它忘了標註，我沒有意見，也許他們官網漏掉，但是基於國家的尊嚴以及顏面，是不是你們可以請他們官網要把它加上去，不然你現在告訴我，你們今天的報告我看完了以後，發現貴院報告上面寫我們難得用中華民國這個名義加入，對不對？但是我看他們的官網上沒有嘛！你跟我說點進去在某一個小地方有，這就不對了，因為列表才是重點啊！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，這一點我們會特別注意，然後會去主張，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個部分麻煩，這個是我們國家顏面問題。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想不管任何政黨都認為我們國家顏面是最重要的。","最後我跟你們說，我們上個禮拜在審新住民法案的時候請貴院的人權委員會來，他們不來，也沒有請假，就丟了一個公文說不克出席，原因是什麼也不講。我想人權委員會並不適用釋字第461號，它沒有理由說不來。能不能請副秘書長回去轉告人權委員會不要這麼囂張，今天立法院在審查法案，這個跟100萬新住民有關，不要讓這100萬新住民覺得監察院就是看不起他們。如果今天依照憲政規定不來，我覺得我可以接受；依照釋字第461號不來，我也可以接受，但是既然不屬於釋字第461號的範圍內，就一句「不克出席」，然後就不來了！這麼看不起臺灣有100萬的新住民嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，其實就我所知，人權委員會是有正式公文交給司法及法制委員會。"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘書長，正式的公文要經過召委的同意，這可不可以麻煩你們了解一下？今天沒有人同意它，而且不管是各部會首長來跟我們請假一定會說明原因，我們都是儘可能同意，但是今天貴院的人權委員會就一紙公文過來表示不想來、不克出席，這完全不符合過往立法院的慣例。所以，可不可以請轉告不要這麼看不起別人？新住民的人權也非常重要，所以不是人權委員會不用管，好不好？就麻煩你，我也在這邊說明了，拜託人權委員會的各位委員及主管不要看不起立法院，立法院在審查的這些新住民，他們不是外國人，他們是中華民國的國民，他們有投票權，他們也有參政權，不要這樣子搞他們。麻煩下一次請人權委員會來的時候要請他們過來；沒辦法來，也請說明請假的理由，讓召委判斷，不管針對哪一黨都一樣，不是一個公文來，不爽來就不來，沒有那種事。所以剛剛副秘的答復，我沒有辦法接受，並不是它有跟我講就算數，好不好？謝謝副秘。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請翁曉玲委員。也麻煩代理秘書長，剛剛那個750萬的細項就發給每個出席委員，好不好？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db506691348c3c4e7cb298be1699f4405fe9f5dc299e2380ced3f6f56bf4e46f5f0685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:26:52 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對不對所以它會成為民眾心中的笑話所以希望在7月份要召開的紀律委員會能夠給人民一個交代對於沒有做事的監委該走人就走人另外要求監察院提供一份資料統計一下所有監委近三年來個別監委近三年來提出調查報告的數量"},{"start":337.622,"end":357.127,"text":"讓全民檢視到底是誰拿錢不做事然後把這份報告我想這不是什麼機密這個希望你們在一個禮拜之內把這份數據這個我們送交給立法院可以嗎更為說明是可以這不是機密嘛好不好好謝謝秘書長謝謝好謝謝寬恒接著我們請吳宗憲召委質詢"},{"start":369.385,"end":370.191,"text":"抱歉我不管"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":427,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時26分）謝謝主席。主席、各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請監察院王代理秘書長。"],["主席：我們請監察院王代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：秘書長好。這次解凍案主要是為了因應第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研討會在臺灣舉辦，所以排這個解凍案。而這個研討會，我們監察院陳菊院長也多次表示，希望能夠再次爭取到臺灣來舉辦，持續的推動國際監察交流合作，讓世界看見臺灣。","在2019年舉辦過後，時隔6年再度回到臺灣，我們歡迎來自世界各地的人才與我們交流，探討各類人權相關的議題。由監察院主辦的APOR年會需要接待許多來自不同國家的官員，爭取到APOR在臺舉辦，將會使臺灣國際能見度更加提升。請問秘書長，要怎麼樣才能讓人相信監察院能夠在實務上確實發揮人權保障的功能？請簡單說明。"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，這次監察院是要爭取能夠繼續主辦APOR年會，透過主辦國際組織年會這樣的機會，其實就是能夠讓全世界各個人民，或者是……"],["顏委員寬恒：讓大家看到。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我才會問我們要怎麼做能夠讓大家相信，不是只看到，而是讓大家相信臺灣在人權維護上面有在提升。"],["王代理秘書長增華：其實從這次的主題就可以看得出來，我們是有監察使的任務；然後另外要去做反酷刑，其實反酷刑的部分也是一個重要的人權公約的展現；另外就是有關於AI人權的部分。我們為什麼會選定這樣的主題？就是監察院重視這樣的人權任務，然後透過這樣的國際會議能夠讓大家都知道監察院治理的重點在這裡。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝秘書長，因為時間不多，我是說這麼難得我們能夠爭取到這樣一個國際研討會再次來到臺灣舉辦，希望我們能夠給所有來到臺灣參加的這些各國友人留下一個良好的印象，不要讓人家覺得我們爭取到這個機會，但是沒有充分的運用，讓大家失望，所以我們在國際舞臺的實力跟專業性，希望能夠藉由這次來做一個提升跟發揮。","我繼續請教，因為監察院近期爭議不斷，我們看到監察院到底該不該廢除的議題現在又浮上檯面，大家都在討論。我們知道監察委員共29人，其中1人為院長，1人為副院長，任期6年，監察委員的職責就像你剛剛說的，負責行使監察權，確保政府部門的透明度跟公正性，具有彈劾、糾舉、審計權，但是本應該具有重大使命的監察院，現在彷彿是政治人物的退休養老院，除了先前爆發的公務車濫用爭議，還有監察委員說沒有公務車上班會遲到，除了讓人瞠目結舌之外，也不知道要怎麼形容啦。監委的年薪高達250萬，但是這半年來有許多監委所提出的調查報告是個位數，甚至是連一件都沒有提出的，領這麼多錢，一件事都沒做，這樣不只誇張，就是人家說的，連假裝都不假裝了，真的把監察院當作是養老院，拿人民的納稅錢來養老，這是爽缺啦！這是爽缺就對了，難怪大家看不下去，說要廢除。我想請教秘書長，針對剛剛我們說的沒有做事的監委，難道你們就視而不見嗎？還是有其他作為？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，有關於監察權行使的狀況，其實我們每個月對外會有相關的公告，是相當的清楚，有多少調查案、多少糾舉案、彈劾案、收受多少人民陳情，就以收受人民陳情的部分來講，第6屆已經超過七萬多件，所以事實上是有非常多人民對他們有冤抑的地方來跟監察院陳情。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，我知道，公告這些數字其實這也不是什麼機密，但是我要講的是，人民期待的監察院是一個真正行使監察權，確保政府部門對公眾負責的機構，不是一個空殼，就是只剩下名稱的機構，所以監委如果無法履行核心職務，那這個機構就沒有存在的價值嘛，對不對？所以它會成為民眾心中的笑話，希望7月份要召開的紀律委員會能夠給人民一個交代，對於沒有做事的監委，該走人就走人。","另外要求監察院提供一份資料，統計一下個別監委近三年來提出調查報告的數量，讓全民檢視到底是誰拿錢不做事，然後把這份報告……我想這不是什麼機密，希望你們在一個禮拜之內把這份數據送交給立法院，可以嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，可以，這是公開資訊。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，這不是機密嘛，謝謝秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝寬恒。接著我們請吳宗憲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db50648cb15940a5fb8c28be1699f4405fe9f5dc299e2380ced3fb268d5fed35f2e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:17:52 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不會吧 對到底是257還是259目前 截至目前是259那因為會員有時候時間會退有一些原因有可能加入或退出或者是他名稱更改所以最近到目前截至為止的話是多少是259 對259 這樣剛才代理秘書可能是口誤啦那我想來請教啦 其實"},{"start":62.886,"end":73.636,"text":"國人的期待我相信共識也是我們整個台灣走得出去啊這是國人的一個期待啦國人的一個期待一月份啊"},{"start":74.861,"end":93.611,"text":"那個時候可能藍白的委員心情不好預算拿起來就給你這樣砍這種舉辦國際年會的一個經費你說在九月份就要舉辦了嗎現在都已經快七月了我們還必須要用最佳預算的一個方式這個是"},{"start":94.891,"end":121.082,"text":"這個一笑大方這個其實在國際上我看這被人家看笑話了但是我還是要請教代理民主黨就是說可以請你跟國人來做一個說明為什麼這項國際組織的一個參與它的意義你們覺得非常重大然後這一切的論壇提升台灣的國際能見度或者人權外交跟監察治理的改革裡面到底會有什麼樣的一個幫助請你先說明"},{"start":122.773,"end":136.738,"text":"其實就是監察院有這樣子的一個國際監察組織的參與是不容易的是不容易的那他這個組織最重要的重點就是在監察跟人權還有善治有幾個這樣子的重點"},{"start":137.478,"end":159.252,"text":"那我們這次舉辦這個年會呢會會邀請APRIL的會員IOI的會員而且我們這次的主題呢其實是focus在監察室的一個任務那跟人權有關然後另外就是我們會討論到國家反酷刑就是酷刑防治的一個相關的機制NPM那這個也是一個重要人權公約應該要鑑定的相關的"},{"start":163.694,"end":178.359,"text":"然後另外一個主題是有關於AI跟人權還有民主法治等多元的議題這個其實是能夠這個議題非常的有意義而且能夠增加我們國家的國際能見度然後對於整個監察治理透過參與會員持續的參與會員持續的參與重要的相關的活動能夠提升國家的能見度"},{"start":193.364,"end":212.915,"text":"讓大家都看得到中華民國有監察組織這樣子的一個機構堂堂的一個憲政機關監察院連這樣的一個業務費舉辦的一個國際的活動也被立法院把這個預算給砍掉我看你們的一個回應 軟趴趴"},{"start":214.363,"end":234.577,"text":"我猜你也算個贏,這個我覺得是非常可惜的一個地方你目前在國際不承認,我們中華民國的情況之下任何有機會走出去,其實這會是國人的一個共識今天如果台灣沒有辦法參與,或者舉辦這樣的一個國際的活動"},{"start":237.074,"end":248.017,"text":"誰最開心 中國最開心啊 中國最開心啊最開心的就是中國所以其實呢 今天這樣的一個 今天這個整個預算的一個追蹤 二倍我倒認為啊 國民黨跟台灣民眾黨沒那麼好打 你知道嗎 沒那麼好打我又靜靜地看 我又看這一筆的預算他們到底會不會繼續來反對 可以反對多久"},{"start":266.755,"end":294.598,"text":"我看過去民主進步黨我們也一直主張要把監察院給廢掉那我現在看到台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨的一些立法委員啊他們也去連署啦他們說要把整個監察院把它給廢掉了我們去回顧一下2015年啊就是因為中國國民黨堅持綁不在籍投票才會破局否則2015年啊"},{"start":297.237,"end":324.358,"text":"廢掉監察院就會成案了2022年那是因為中國國民黨全面去杯葛修建委員會到最後只送出18歲的一個公民權沒有辦法去處理五權體制的一個改革這個接下來如果說監察院如果說退場了人權委員會到底何去何從這個是我比較關注的一個地方就是說監察院"},{"start":325.197,"end":327.919,"text":"廢掉 那廢掉就廢掉嘛廢掉有什麼關係反正大家都覺得這個院那民眾也可能覺得監察院你也不幹了啦但是這個人權委員會我就覺得有這個必要啦所以我倒想就這個機會來救教我們代理秘書長就是說如果監察院退場以後"},{"start":346.573,"end":358.163,"text":"那你人權委員會你從2020年設立到現在你扮演的諸多的一個角色我們也提供聯合國國際專家審查我國的在地國際的一個報告的一個重要的一個依據那如果廢掉了 你有要看法嗎"},{"start":363.107,"end":388.924,"text":"2020年國家人權委員會在監察院設置其實在設置之前就有非常多的討論是不是放在總統府行政院甚至立法院或最後是選定在監察院其實它最重要的重點就是監察院能夠獨立然後能夠辦理好人權監督的一個角色那其實國家人權委員會在這幾年來也有非常多的"},{"start":389.244,"end":413.017,"text":"好的表現除了剛剛委員說的獨立評估意見以外還有非常多的專案報告系統性訪查等等的還有推廣人權教育都是非常重要的一個成果跟成就那如果監察院如果因修憲的程序而廢除的話其實不只是國家人權委員會還有很多法定的職權比如說像"},{"start":414.117,"end":440.957,"text":"陽光四法就是公職人才申報法然後利益衝突政治獻金等等的還有才通過的公益階幣者保護法都是把監察院放得非常重要的角色像這樣子的一個如果監察院不存在那如何來做配置或者是配套的確是要請國人非常去注意的去研究是會有非常重大的影響"},{"start":441.798,"end":456.171,"text":"我國長期受到中國這樣在國際上的一個打壓那這一次啊我們有這個機會來舉辦這樣的一個年會啊其實本身就一個深具一個指標性的一個意義啊尤其是我們可以這樣的參與的國際上的一個組織然後呢讓他過去實質交流經驗超過了30年"},{"start":462.236,"end":485.257,"text":"可以讓他繼續來做一個延續啦我看到2024年透明度透明國際公布的一個全球青年印象指數裡面我們台灣排名也上升到25名創下歷年來最佳的一個表現也就顯示了台灣聯能治理能力逐步獲得國際上的一個認可當然這未必跟監察院有關係那是整個國家的一個治理"},{"start":485.757,"end":508.856,"text":"但是我們也真的要期許我特別在這邊提醒在野黨的好朋友不論國內的政爭我們如何的激烈台灣國際上的參與這個部分其實都要凝聚更高國人的共識國人也大部分都期待所以我今天倒是要眼睜睜的來看我要很仔細的來看"},{"start":511.438,"end":521.165,"text":"看在野黨今天對這一筆預算你們的態度到底是怎麼樣我們也期待啊 期子兼裁員來好好準備了啦 我大膽給斷啦國民黨在這條裡面啊 沒那麼大膽啦 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝莊瑞雄委員接著我們請顏寬恆委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時17分）謝謝我們最美麗的召委，謝謝。有請監察院王增華代理秘書長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我看一個人上來備詢就好了，秘書長，我來請教一下，今天你們提到的，我看你們整個報告裡面有提國際監察組織成立快要50年了，目前這個組織裡面有111個國家，到底有多少個會員機關加入啊？你剛剛提到的是257，但是你的報告是寫259。"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為這是會員，有時候是會有一些波動的，我們的資料是257。"],["莊委員瑞雄：兩天就波動了，不會吧！到底是257，還是259？"],["汪處長林玲：截至目前是259，因為會員有時候基於一些原因，有可能加入或退出，或者是它的名稱更改，所以最近、截至目前為止的話……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是多少？"],["汪處長林玲：是259。"],["莊委員瑞雄：259？"],["汪處長林玲：是、是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以剛才代理秘書長可能是口誤啦，我想來請教一下，其實國人的期待，我相信共識也是，我們整個臺灣走得出去是國人的一個期待，1月份那個時候可能藍白的委員心情不好，預算拿起來就給你這樣砍，這種舉辦國際年會的所需經費，你在9月份就要舉辦了嘛，現在都已經快7月了……"],["王代理秘書長增華：9月3號。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們還必須要用追加預算的方式，這真是貽笑大方啦，這個其實在國際上，我看是會這被人家看笑話啦，但是我還是要想請教代理秘書長，就是請你跟國人來做一個說明，為什麼參與這項國際組織的意義你們覺得非常重大？然後這一次的論壇，提升臺灣的國際能見度，或者人權外交跟監察治理的改革裡面，到底會有什麼樣的幫助？請你先說明。"],["王代理秘書長增華：其實監察院有這樣子一個國際監察組織的參與是不容易的，它是不容易的！這個組織最重要的重點就是在監察跟人權，還有善治，有幾個這樣子的重點。這一次我們舉辦這個年會，會邀請APOR的會員、IOI的會員，而且我們這次的主題其實是focus在監察史的一個任務，這跟人權有關。另外，我們會討論到國家反酷刑，就是酷刑防制的一個相關機制NPM，這個也是一個重要人權公約應該要踐履的相關義務。另外一個主題是有關於AI跟人權，還有民主法治等多元的議題，這個其實是能夠……這個議題非常有意義，而且能夠增加我們國家的國際能見度，然後對於整個監察治理，持續參與會員、持續參與重要的相關活動，能夠提升國家的能見度，讓大家都看得到中華民國有監察組織這樣子的一個機構。"],["莊委員瑞雄：堂堂的一個憲政機關──監察院，連這樣的業務費，舉辦國際活動的費用，也被立法院把這筆預算給砍掉，但我看你們的回應卻是軟趴趴，枉費你們也算是一個院，這是我覺得非常可惜的一個地方。以目前在國際不承認我們中華民國的情況之下，任何有機會走出去，其實這會是國人的一個共識。今天如果臺灣沒有辦法參與或者舉辦這樣的國際活動，誰最開心？中國最開心，中國最開心啊！最開心的就是中國。所以其實今天這樣的議程，整個預算希望用第二預備金的方式來支應，我倒認為國民黨跟台灣民眾黨沒那麼大膽啦，你知道嗎？沒那麼大膽，我就靜靜的看，我就看這筆預算，他們到底會不會繼續來反對，以及可以反對多久。","過去我們民主進步黨也一直主張要把監察院給廢掉，我現在看到台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨的一些立法委員也去連署，要把整個監察院給廢掉，我們回顧一下，2015年就是因為中國國民黨堅持綁不在籍投票才會破局，否則2015年廢掉監察院就會成案了。2022年是因為中國國民黨全面杯葛修憲委員會，到最後只送出18歲的公民權修憲案，沒有辦法去處理五權體制的改革。接下來如果監察院退場了，人權委員會到底何去何從？這個是我比較關注的一個地方，就是說將監察院廢掉，廢掉就廢掉了，廢掉有什麼關係，反正大家都覺得這個院，民眾可能也覺得監察院沒有多厲害啦，但是這個人權委員會，我就覺得有存在的必要，所以我倒想利用這個機會來就教代理秘書長，如果監察院退場以後，人權委員會從2020年設立到現在，它所扮演的諸多角色，包括提供聯合國國際專家審查我國在地國際報告一個重要的依據，如果將它廢掉了，你們有什麼看法嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：2020年在監察院設置國家人權委員會，其實在設置之前就有非常多的討論，是不是放在總統府、行政院，甚至立法院或哪裡，最後選定放在監察院，其實它重要的重點就是監察院能夠獨立，然後能夠扮演好人權監督的角色。其實國家人權委員會在這幾年也有非常多好的表現，除了剛剛委員說的獨立評估意見以外，還有非常多的專案報告、系統性訪查等等，還有推廣人權教育，都是它非常重要的成果跟成就。如果監察院因修憲的程序而廢除的話，其實不只是國家人權委員會，還有很多法定的職權，比如說陽光四法，就是公職人員財產申報法，以及利益衝突、政治獻金等等的，還有才通過的公益揭弊者保護法，都是把監察院放在非常重要的角色，如果監察院不存在，如何來做配置或者是配套？的確要請國人非常、非常注意去研究，是會有非常重大的影響。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我國長期受到中國在國際上打壓，這一次我們有這個機會來舉辦這樣一個年會，其實本身就深具指標性意義，尤其是我們可以這樣參與國際上的一個組織，過去實質交流經驗超過30年，然後可以讓它繼續來做一個延續。","我看到2024年公布的全球清廉印象指數裡面，我們臺灣的排名也上升到25名，創下歷年來最佳的表現，也就顯示臺灣廉能治理能力逐步獲得國際上的認可，當然這未必跟監察院有關係，那是整個國家的治理，但是我們也真的要期許，我特別在這邊提醒在野黨的好朋友，不論國內的政爭如何激烈，臺灣在國際參與上，這個部分其實都要凝聚國人更高的共識，國人也大部分都很期待，所以我今天倒是要眼睜睜的來看、很仔細的來看，看在野黨今天對這一筆預算，你們的態度到底是怎麼樣，我們也期待，其實監察院有好好準備了啦，我大膽斷言，國民黨在這部分沒那麼大膽啦，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員，接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5063165f6e47b5e5a578be1699f4405fe9f5dc299e2380ced3f5b23da5efbb1608e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:09:35 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請人權委員會來說明一下"},{"start":110.824,"end":139.018,"text":"是 報告委員跟委員說明一下就是國家安全委員會其實是站在守護生命權的立場那因為我們國家已經所以被害人的生命權不重要因為主要是因為我們國家已經簽訂了兩公約那你遇到施朵講的女老師你要不要描述一下怎麼受殘忍的虐待 虐殺其實我們是扮演著一個那你知不知道今天最近有詐欺集團綁架61個被害者綁架61個人"},{"start":140.916,"end":168.528,"text":"我想請教人權會這六十一個人的人權在哪裡其實人權會我們我想問你哪一個政府執政之下有六十一個人被綁架的一次綁架六十一個人你聽過嗎你有沒有聽過先跑出人權會立場有聽過嗎有時綁架人數最多就是在我們民進黨執政的時候你也有去關心這些人權嗎"},{"start":170.344,"end":196.382,"text":"我們人權會其實這幾年在廢死的工作上面其實我們同時對啦我知道你心心念念就是要廢死啊我們其實現在也針對受害者的家屬所以人權會沒有心心念念要廢死啊我們今年其實也針對受害者的家屬然後在這個部分開始著力你一邊跟大家講你要廢除死刑一邊跟大家講你關心受害者的家屬你去講給受害者家屬聽啦你不用講給受害者家屬聽你講給誰聽我告訴你你知道那個61個被綁架的"},{"start":200.981,"end":221.368,"text":"被未讀被惦記被虐待活活虐待三個人死掉虐死三個人一樣啊免死你去跟那個被虐死那三個人講講人權好不好要不要去拜訪家屬講人權謝謝你的無語我告訴你這是為什麼第一個我要講"},{"start":230.27,"end":256.611,"text":"你憑什麼說不支持死刑反對廢除死刑是不民主的什麼叫做廢除死刑叫深化民主那不廢除死刑就不是深化民主這你們人權會的結論總不能否認吧在現在的是不是嘛一百多個國家裡面其實目前還有存留死刑的國家已經很少了而且重點是"},{"start":257.694,"end":272.057,"text":"民進黨最愛拿著美國做例子美國也有一些州是沒有廢除死刑啊所以他也沒有深化民主啊不要拿民主做標籤就這麼簡單這是你們人權會自己想要做的"},{"start":273.123,"end":299.19,"text":"迎合執政黨廢除死刑的黨綱那是政治意識形態其實這個不是迎合因為我們已經簽署兩公約沒關係啊你去跟那三位被虐死的家被虐死的受害者講這些啦當初兩公約在簽的時候是在馬總統時代我很簡單我要講一個結論我要告訴你一個結論兩公約你也不要拿來框我兩公約也沒說要廢除死刑兩公約只是說要嚴格謹慎的執行死刑對啊你也講對那你拿兩公約出來縮嘴"},{"start":300.069,"end":326.563,"text":"沒有,因為很多國家如果說不執行執行的話是可以排除第五條的我再說啊,我就做一個很簡單的結論啦你光你今天監察院站在八成民意反對廢死的民意的對立面我就不知道監察院在幹嘛在講本務啊想請教一下我們代理秘書長剛好看前面的委員都有質詢啊"},{"start":328.072,"end":354.605,"text":"李俊詩用公務車已經請辭那想請問現在行政調查結果進度到什麼程度目前有關於 我們副院長也有說明然後會 目前檢調在處理中有六個案件然後另外紀律委員會也有排案要我們副院長就胡說八道什麼叫檢調在處理就不能處理"},{"start":356.462,"end":381.248,"text":"法規規定的很清楚並不因此停止調查所以搞了半天我剛剛前面講先站在八成的反對廢死的民意的對立面就是監察院然後第二個自己是要端正關真的單位結果呢涉入一大堆問題第三個時間到我也不占用時間很簡單"},{"start":383.8,"end":411.37,"text":"到現在為止監察院到底交出了什麼監督行政權的成績單出來給大家看不是大家刪監察院預算而是監察院真的是做的實在是讓大家覺得這個單位存在跟沒存在到底差別在哪裡關鍵還一件事情我希望陳菊院長早日康復我是真心的希望祝福她身體健康可是一個院長請假多久了"},{"start":414.381,"end":441.196,"text":"目前院長在請假中請假多久你看連我們的代理秘書長都不知道院長請假多久還沒有半年快半年快半年那不就是某種程度我也要必須說那不是證明監察院院長不在半年也是沒有關係嗎行政院院長可以半年不在嗎司法院院長半年不在嗎所以我還是要回頭說啦"},{"start":442.864,"end":464.838,"text":"今天年會的預算我沒什麼意見啦國際會議要舉辦沒什麼意見但監察院真的我還是回頭當然也不能怪你們啦我說過啦監察院的整個制度設計就是有問題我今天跟黃國昌委員已經一起提案就是針對修憲要啟動調整監察院的憲政職程"},{"start":467.252,"end":480.005,"text":"讓監察院變成一個民意機關我覺得比較能夠解決現在的問題不會背離民意甚至不會因為被行政權牽絆而不敢執行監察權的職務謝謝好 謝謝羅志強接著我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢馬力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時9分）有請王代理秘書長。"],["主席：請王代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：王代秘書長，其實在預算審查當中，你有沒有發現不管司法院也好，考試院也好，大家有意見的比較少，但監察院大家的意見就很多，對不對？我告訴你為什麼。","先從幾件事來看，為什麼大家對監察院的預算意見那麼多？坦白講，要開國際年會，我覺得沒什麼問題。但監察院要自己想想看，為什麼對於監察院的預算大家會意見那麼多？我想請教一句話，你看是誰說的。「死刑作為一個結束個人生命的終極懲罰，不管採取什麼樣的執行方式，都是殘忍、不人道。死刑是酷刑，不能以合法制裁之名豁免責任。八成民眾不贊成廢除死刑，做出臺灣民意對廢死強烈不滿的結論，但在不能合理理解臺灣社會真實面貌下，如何得證國家發動死刑的正當性」，這些話是誰說的？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我不能確定，但是不是國家人權委員會？"],["羅委員智強：沒錯，就是國家人權委員會的6月份年報。為什麼我從這地方開始講？你們特別強調廢除死刑是深化民主與落實轉型正義的重要步驟，我想請問代理秘書長，廢除死刑與深化民主有什麼關係？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是國家人權委員會的正式主張，我可不可以請……"],["羅委員智強：可以，請人權會說明。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：跟委員說明一下。國家人權委員會其實是站在守護生命權的立場，因為我們國家已經簽訂了……"],["羅委員智強：所以被害人的生命權不重要？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：主要是因為我們國家已經簽訂了兩公約……"],["羅委員智強：你知道師鐸獎女老師一案嗎？你要不要描述一下她遭受怎麼樣的殘忍虐殺？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：其實我們是扮演一個……"],["羅委員智強：你知不知道最近有詐欺集團綁架61名被害者，綁架61個人！我想請教人權會，這61人的人權在哪裡？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：其實人權會……"],["羅委員智強：在哪一個政府執政之下，會有61人被綁架？一次綁架61人，你聽過嗎？你有沒有聽過？先拋除你所謂的人權會立場吧！有聽過嗎？有史以來綁架人數最多的，就是在民進黨執政的時候！你有去關心這些人的人權嗎？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：人權會這幾年在廢死工作上，其實也同時對受害者家屬……"],["羅委員智強：對，我知道你們心心念念就是要廢死！"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：不、不，我們現在也針對受害者家屬……"],["羅委員智強：不？所以人權會沒有心心念念要廢死？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：今年其實也開始針對受害者家屬在著力……"],["羅委員智強：你一邊跟大家講要廢除死刑；一邊跟大家講關心受害者家屬，你去講給受害者家屬聽！其實你不用講給受害者家屬聽，你該講給誰聽？我告訴你，那61個被綁架、被餵毒、被電擊、被虐待，而且有3人被活活虐死！虐死3個人！一樣，免死！你去跟被虐死的3個人講人權，好不好？要不要去拜訪家屬講人權？謝謝你的無語！我告訴你，這就是為什麼我第一個要講的，你憑什麼說不支持死刑？說反對廢除死刑是不民主的？說什麼廢除死刑叫深化民主，難道不廢除死刑就不是深化民主？這是你們人權會的結論，總不能否認吧？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：在現在一百多個國家裡面，目前還存留死刑的國家已經很少……"],["羅委員智強：別的國家有別的國家的國情，重點是，民進黨最愛拿美國做例子，但美國也有一些州並沒有廢除死刑。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：我了解……"],["羅委員智強：所以它也沒有深化民主？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：這我們都了解……"],["羅委員智強：不要拿民主做標籤，就這麼簡單！這是你們人權會自己想要做的，迎合執政黨廢除死刑的黨綱，是政治意識形態……"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：不是迎合，因為我們已經簽署兩公約，當初並沒有排除……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你去跟那3位被虐死的受害者家屬講這些！"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：當初簽訂兩公約時是在馬總統時代，當時並沒有排除死刑這條……"],["羅委員智強：很簡單，我講一個結論：你不要拿兩公約來誆我！兩公約沒說要廢除死刑！兩公約只是要嚴格謹慎的執行死刑。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：對，但是如果說……"],["羅委員智強：你也講對？你還拿兩公約出來說嘴？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：沒有，因為如果很多國家不執行死刑的話，是可以排除第五條的……"],["羅委員智強：我做個很簡單的結論：今天光監察院站在八成反對廢死民意的對立面，就讓我不知道監察院在幹什麼！","現在來講本務，想請教一下代理秘書長，剛剛我看前面的委員都有質詢，李俊俋私用公務車已經請辭了，請問現在行政調查結果進度到什麼程度？"],["王代理秘書長增華：目前有關於……我們副院長也有說明會……目前檢調在處理中，有六個案號……"],["羅委員智強：就是不處理啦，直接幫你下結論嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：另外，紀律委員會也有排案要開會。"],["羅委員智強：你們副院長就是胡說八道，什麼叫檢調在處理就不能處理！法規規定的很清楚，並不因此停止調查，所以搞了半天，我剛剛前面講，先站在八成反對廢死的民意的對立面，就是監察院！第二個，自己是要端正官箴的單位，結果卻涉入一大堆問題。第三個，時間到我也不占用時間，很簡單，到現在為止，監察院到底交出了什麼監督行政權的成績單出來給大家看？不是大家要刪監察院的預算，而是監察院真的是做得實在是……讓大家覺得這個單位存在跟沒存在到底差別在哪裡？我就光檢討一件事情，我希望陳菊院長早日康復，我是真心的希望，祝福他身體健康，可是一個院長請假多久了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：目前院長在請假中。"],["羅委員智強：請假多久了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：還沒有到……"],["羅委員智強：你看，連我們的代理秘書長都不知道院長請假多久！"],["王代理秘書長增華：還沒有半年，快半年。"],["羅委員智強：快半年？那不就是某種程度，我也要必須說，這不是證明監察院院長不在半年也是沒有關係嗎？行政院院長可以半年不在嗎？司法院院長可以半年不在嗎？所以我還是要回頭說，今天年會的預算，我沒什麼意見啦，國際會議要舉辦，我沒什麼意見，但監察院真的……我還是回頭說，當然也不能怪你們啦，我說過監察院整個制度的設計就是有問題的，我今天跟黃國昌委員已經一起提案，就是針對修憲要啟動，調整監察院的憲政職權，讓監察院變成一個民意機關，我覺得比較能夠解決現在的問題，不會背離民意，甚至不會因為被行政權牽絆而不敢執行監察權的職務，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","接著我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db506233e699a133bfdf68be1699f4405fe9f5dc299e2380ced3fb5c8fdb204d45c695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:01:43 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對不對所以我們來看看說這樣子的預算今天也有國民黨委員來講說這個預算我們支持啊那當初為什麼會被刪除"},{"start":155.441,"end":165.007,"text":"就是因為當初的刪除的過程荒謬那我們今天來就是把它提出來我們來好好討論說這個預算到底需不需要我們所參加的我們這個國際監察組織它有幾個會員國"},{"start":172.104,"end":192.35,"text":"國際監察組織到目前為止有257個會員國那我們國家的會員是隸屬於APOR就是澳紐及太平洋那總共有18個會員國這個國際監察組織它總共分六個區域它分成非洲、亞洲、歐洲、北美洲"},{"start":193.05,"end":213.686,"text":"然後再來加勒比亞跟拉丁美洲第六個就是我們紐澳跟太平洋嘛對不對所以它是一個正式的國際組織那這樣的國際組織我們在哪一年加入的在一九九四一九九四年啦一九九四年啦到現在三十年啦一九九四年一九九四年我們加入我們用什麼樣的名義加入中華台北"},{"start":214.69,"end":241.343,"text":"台灣經濟共同體中華民國監察院我們用中華民國監察院加入這個是現在我們非常非常少數用中華民國的名義加入的國際組織三十年這個組織有我們參加這個組織三十年三十年來我們舉辦過幾次年會舉辦過三次年會兩次吧這是第三次這是要舉辦第三次三十年來我們才爭取到兩次"},{"start":242.666,"end":267.945,"text":"一次在2011年是馬英九總統任內爭取的另外一個是2019年那我們從2022年開始爭取今年主辦經過兩年的努力我們今年終於可以主辦了這樣子的在台灣現在在國際社會上面這樣子的條件我們在所有的組織有的組織完全連參與的機會都沒有有的組織就你一定要矮化才能參與"},{"start":270.661,"end":288.376,"text":"這麼難得有一個以中華民國名義參加的國際組織我們參加了三十年才辦過兩次年會今年要爭取辦第三次結果這已經剩兩個月囉如果今天我們預算不讓你們動用第二預備金我們沒錢我們宣布兩個月前宣布不辦了我們台灣在這個國際組織要怎麼站起來啊"},{"start":295.417,"end":312.779,"text":"台湾这么少的国际组织用中华民国民意参与结果我们跟人家说我们今年要办年会然后剩下两个月说我们不办了年会说其他国家会问你为什么啊为什么你们不办说对不起因为我们在野党把我们的预算删除了所以我们没得办"},{"start":315.084,"end":327.994,"text":"這種把國內政治鬥爭去影響到國家在參與國際社會的利益這個就是典型標準這就是為什麼人民會看不下這一屆立法院的最大的原因大家對於國內政策對於監察院可以有很多意見可以提案要求修建廢除監察院但是這種參與國際組織這台灣國際面子這台灣的國際信用"},{"start":346.787,"end":371.59,"text":"這個你再怎麼樣野蠻再怎麼內鬥都不能夠去危害到國家的這個利益更何況這個國際監察組織事實上從2018年開始中國他們本來不是一個民主國家他們沒有國會沒有什麼院但是中國在2018年他設立了一個國家監察委員會對不對他想要用這個國家監察委員會他想要加入這個組織把中華民國踢出去"},{"start":374.059,"end":400.007,"text":"在這麼艱難的時候我們在野黨刪除這個預算讓我們國際信用破產讓我們下一次要再爭取舉辦第三次的機會也沒了以後誰還會讓你辦啊你們在兩個月舉辦前兩個月跟我宣布取消所以這部分我覺得這個是台灣的國家利益這部分我希望說我們今天動用第二預備金我們要應該立法院應該要通過讓你們辦"},{"start":402.358,"end":411.791,"text":"你可以說台北市議會因為蔣萬安市場做得很爛所以我在舉辦前兩個月我說把你失壯運的預算全部砍光讓你辦不了失壯運這個就是我所說的"},{"start":417.386,"end":436.99,"text":"我們內部在野黨黨派政治立場不同我們政治觀點不同我們所扮演的角色不同都沒有關係但是所有的這些包括預算刪除包括我們這些都不能夠損及台灣的國家利益這才是在野黨應該有的這也是現在人民對於這一屆立法院所真正不滿的地方想要把台灣踢出APPLE這個年會"},{"start":444.013,"end":455.763,"text":"只有兩個人一個就是中共他們2018年處心積慮第二就是在野黨刪除這個預算讓我們國際信用擴展以上好 謝謝接著請羅志強委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時1分）主席，請代理秘書長。"],["主席：請王代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長早。剛才很多委員的質詢大概都已經一再闡明了，今天這樣的提案完全是依照預算法第二十二條第二項後段但書的規定，就是預算被刪除之後，不能動用第二預備金，除非是兩個狀況：第一種狀況是，它是法定經費；第二種可以動用第二預備金的情況就是經立法院同意，所以你們今天就是來尋求立法院的同意，對不對？就是依照預算法第二十二條第二項後段的規定，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：所以這個部分我想應該沒有爭議。因此，我們就來看重點，為什麼你們監察院被刪除那麼多、那麼多的預算？包括水電費等等，這些預算全部都被刪除了，但是為什麼只有你們今天就提這一條來動用第二預備金？這是立法院應該問的道理，對不對？就是你們被刪除那麼多，為什麼只有要動用這一條？是你們要舉辦國際監察組織裡面的澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會，這個年會預計什麼時候舉辦？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，今年9月3號到5號，所以時間很迫近。"],["沈委員發惠：9月，所以剩下7、8月，兩個月的準備時間，事實上是很急迫啦！為什麼要動用預備金，不等追加減預算？其實就是因為時間真的很急迫了。到底這個年會是什麼樣的組織？為什麼你們的預算會在立法院的審查中被刪除？在司法及法制委員會討論時有討論到這個案子嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我們是……"],["沈委員發惠：我是司法及法制委員會的。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，我們是編列在議事業務，議事業務編了一千八百多萬，750萬是在這當中，在司法及法制……"],["沈委員發惠：司法及法制委員會那時候也是全案保留送協商。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["沈委員發惠：全案保留送協商之後，協商出來的結論就是大家沒有共識，送表決。送表決之後，那天徹夜一直表決到天亮，是被表決到刪除預算數超過本預算數的那個荒謬的在野黨，在荒謬的刪除預算大戲裡面刪除的，對不對？所以我們來看看，今天也有國民黨委員說這個預算他們支持，那當初為什麼會被刪除？就是因為當初這個刪除的過程荒謬嘛，我們今天來就是把它提出來，好好討論這個預算到底需不需要，我們所參加的這個國際監察組織，它有幾個會員國？"],["王代理秘書長增華：國際監察組織到目前為止有257個會員國，我們國家的會籍是隸屬APOR，也就是澳紐及太平洋地區。"],["沈委員發惠：澳紐及太平洋地區，我知道。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，總共有18個會員國。"],["沈委員發惠：這個國際監察組織總共分6個區域，對不對？它分成非洲、亞洲、歐洲、北美洲、加勒比海及拉丁美洲，第6個就是紐澳跟太平洋，對不對？所以它是一個正式的國際組織，這樣的國際組織，我們在哪一年加入的？"],["王代理秘書長增華：1994年。"],["沈委員發惠：在1994年，從1994年到現在有三十年。我們在1994年用什麼樣的名義加入？中華臺北？臺灣經濟共同體？"],["王代理秘書長增華：中華民國監察院。"],["沈委員發惠：用中華民國監察院的名義加入，這是現在我們非常非常少數用中華民國名義加入的國際組織！我們參加這個組織三十年了，這三十年來我們辦過幾次年會？"],["王代理秘書長增華：辦過三次年會。"],["沈委員發惠：兩次吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是第三次。"],["沈委員發惠：這次要辦第三次？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：三十年來才爭取到兩次，一次在2011年馬英九總統任內爭取的；另外一次在2019年。後來我們從2022年又開始爭取，經過兩年努力，終於可以在今年主辦。以現在臺灣在國際社會上的條件、以現在所有的組織來說，有的組織我們連參與的機會都沒有；有的組織一定要我們矮化才能參與！所以有一個以中華民國名義參加的國際組織是如此難得，而且我們參加了三十年才辦過兩次年會，今年要爭取舉辦第三次。現在只剩兩個月時間，如果今天不讓你們動用第二預備金，那就沒錢了，只好在兩個月前宣布不辦了，請問這樣臺灣在國際組織上要怎麼站得起來？臺灣能參加的國際組織已經這麼少了，而且這是用中華民國名義參與的，我們還跟人家說今年要辦年會，結果在剩下兩個月時間時說不辦了！其他國家會問，為什麼不辦了？難道我們要說：對不起！因為在野黨把預算刪除了，所以沒辦法辦。這種因國內政治鬥爭而影響到國家參與國際社會的利益，就是典型、標準……這就是為什麼人民會看不下這一屆立法院的最大原因！","大家對於國內政策、對於監察院可以有很多意見，可以提案要求修憲、要求廢除監察院，但參與國際組織關乎臺灣國際面子、關乎臺灣的國際信用，再怎麼野蠻、再怎麼內鬥，都不能危害到國家利益！中國不是一個民主國家，他們沒有國會、沒有什麼院，但中國在2018年設立了國家監察委員會，所以從2018年開始，中國就想加入國際監察組織，想把中華民國踢出去！在這麼艱難的時候在野黨刪除預算，讓臺灣的國際信用破產，讓我們爭取舉辦第三次年會的機會沒了，這樣以後誰還會讓你辦？因為在舉辦前兩個月宣布取消！我覺得這是臺灣的國家利益，所以對於動用第二預備金一事，立法院應該要通過，讓你們可以舉辦。這就像臺北市議會因為蔣萬安市長做得很爛，所以在舉辦世壯運的前兩個月，把世壯運的預算全部砍光，讓他辦不了世壯運！我想說的是，容或在野黨的黨派政治立場不同，政治觀點不同，所扮演的角色也不同，這些都沒有關係。但是這些，包括刪除預算在內，都不能夠損及臺灣的國家利益，這才是在野黨應該有的，這也是現在人民對於這一屆立法院真正不滿的地方！","想把臺灣踢出APOR年會的只有兩個：一個就是中共，他們從2018年起就處心積慮；第二個就是在野黨刪除預算，讓臺灣國際信用破產！以上。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5061c7b9aa551e582928be1699f4405fe9f5dc299e2380ced3fb902c6b3e87089da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:53:54 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在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請我們行政院主計總處的陳副主計長監察院的王代理秘書長 以及紀律委員會的正執行秘書王代理秘書長 還有我們的紀律委員會正執行秘書"},{"start":26.411,"end":55.785,"text":"好 副主席長好 代理部長好 還有鄭時勤秘書好來鄭時勤秘書請教一下剛剛的前面黃委員說如果委員身兼紀律委員就應該對自己的涉及紀律事件迴避我想這是一個基本的立衝的迴避原則那如果某黨的前任黨主席因為涉貪遭檢調調查司法審判那繼任的黨主席可不可以在立法院去質詢司法院或法務部長"},{"start":59.498,"end":77.284,"text":"這個部分我不清楚因為前委員的問題不知道如何回答請你請回沒關係好 今天我要正式談的題目民進黨廢考間歡迎藍白根治廢紙錢應首發首先維持運作來 請教代理秘書長台灣第三次主辦APOR的年會經費哪裡來"},{"start":79.359,"end":99.304,"text":"跟委員說明我們有關於April年會是放放在那個監察院114年的政法中央政府總預算案裡面那被誰刪除了立法院多數刪除了是好那副主席長我們剛剛也聽你解釋過了動用第二預配件的法源依據根據我們預算法下一頁"},{"start":100.452,"end":123.929,"text":"第22條第二項立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額不得同時預備金對不對對你剛剛有講了嘛但是後段但法定經費或經立法院同意者不再實現那請問今天我們是來問剛剛那一筆被刪除預算是法定經費或者要那一筆經費被立法院同意的才不再實現"},{"start":125.209,"end":136.978,"text":"對 我們是要針對原先刪減然後現在是不是立法院同意讓我們動之所以立法院同意之後就可以嗎是好 謝謝 請回來 接下來大理秘書長是來 我們看一下下一頁"},{"start":138.774,"end":163.729,"text":"這個看起來大家都有一點年紀在20年前有一個彩券廣告就是一個爸爸帶著小孩常常帶著小孩說喜歡嗎 爸爸買給你因為中了彩券什麼都有現在我們看到民眾黨就像被寵害的小孩要修憲就全靠這個父爸爸動不動就要國民黨支持他一廂情願的提案請問你知不知道修憲提案是國會過半數就有決定嗎"},{"start":165.79,"end":178.001,"text":"並不是這樣,依照憲法申請條文第12條的規定要四分之三、四分之三我們來看一下現在在野黨,尤其是民眾黨的黨主席他說什麼"},{"start":179.809,"end":197.049,"text":"要開始來修改要成立要修改憲法對不對廢除早已失去存在價值淪為酬勇養老與政治打手的監察院以完善國家憲政體制啟動我的憲政改革到徵修條文的第三條第四條第七條我們看到了他需要得到多少人連署要"},{"start":198.884,"end":226.523,"text":"29個 那他現在有32個結果我們看了一下副爸爸給他多少個民眾黨8個 國民黨24個這24個當中有13個不需要面對罷免包括3加1的原住民委員包括部分區的委員以及包括像陳玉珍這種僥倖沒有被提罷免的結果13位不需要面對罷免的勇敢的來參加這個提案但是我們看到"},{"start":228.087,"end":239.273,"text":"這個提案誰跑掉了王宏威這個面對罷免的委員說這不是藍白河案只開放個人連署誰連署了徐宇珍國民黨主發會的主委撤遷"},{"start":241.809,"end":258.82,"text":"欸 主發會的主任撤遷 你不是不溫屈的嗎為什麼撤遷 因為可能擔心有案再生啊現在這個司法檢調單位在查衛照連署假冒冒名連署的 已經查到哪裡了查到國民黨主發會的副主任了欸"},{"start":259.997,"end":278.392,"text":"所以怎麼樣 跑掉了 看下一頁所以我們看到了 剛剛那個就是什麼不怕死的碰到不知死活的還有11個不知死活的 面對罷免的在那邊聯合的提案來我們問一下 廢除監察院 朱立倫要改黨章嗎對不起 在您面前 你有沒有看過國民黨的黨章沒有 國民黨的黨章叫奉行五權憲法"},{"start":284.198,"end":310.136,"text":"先把正確條文 剛剛說的四分三分三決你認為朱立民主席會同意修改國民黨黨章嗎我沒有辦法很難回答 因為你也不是國民黨黨員OK 好 我們看一下但是修憲委員會 民進黨始終監除廢稿間這是在110年第十屆的時候我們成立了修憲委員會而且我們要求刪除第六條 第七條將考證跟採用廢掉這些人包括柯建民 劉世芳跟蔡世應"},{"start":311.305,"end":338.473,"text":"好 我們那個修憲組長是這樣 那你來猜猜看當年這個修憲提案 國民黨修憲委員有沒有參加不曉得 因為第十屆我在 我是修憲委員會的五個召集委員之一結果呢 修憲遇到廢考間修憲委員會 國民黨十四個委員 三次會議通通缺席不敢面對您覺得國民黨真心要廢除考試院檢察院嗎"},{"start":342.557,"end":357.516,"text":"從歷史斑斑可考,你覺得他是真心的嗎?檢察院完全尊重修憲的程序好,檢察院完全尊重立法院的修憲委員會但是立法院自己的修憲委員會,藍委全部落跑,再下來我們看一下"},{"start":358.24,"end":377.25,"text":"其實我想縱使目前你們人在監察院但是我們也可以去思考國家怎麼進步但是民進黨主張廢除監察院有配套人權保障不能少貪官污吏跑不掉首先目前國家人權會是不是在監察院裡面是的在2019年那如果監察院廢掉了你覺得國家人權會要不要繼續維持"},{"start":378.639,"end":405.755,"text":"這是國家重要的一個機構 重要的機構 好再來我們目前監察院負責工作人員採訪申報對不對 是貪官污吏不能跑掉 申報機關是監察院監察院如果廢掉了 申報的機制要不要維持當然當然要維持 好 謝謝所以呢 結論我們看一下國民黨要挺白修憲啦 而且先問問中南海啊為什麼 因為修憲提案通過之後他經過中華民國自由地區人民投票 複決這是公民投票啊結果國台辦說什麼"},{"start":407.336,"end":430.552,"text":"現在國台辦說台灣的人民不要罷免國民黨可是在2022年中共的發言人馬曉光說所謂的修憲公投根本就是為了修憲謀獨而鋪路造勢所以說國民黨要配合王國昌黨主席配合民眾黨去修憲要不要先問問中南海往下看 最後結論"},{"start":432.162,"end":451.893,"text":"那林秘書長 為了維護我國國際聲譽 善盡會員義務 保障世界各國國會的權益你是不是同意也支持我們 盡速同意動之第二預備金是的 謝謝委員好 那也謝謝你們如果有認識國民黨員國民黨要費考試院 要費監察院 又要費監察院先修綱檔章 再來談修憲 謝謝好 接著請省劃會委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時53分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴及媒體記者女士先生。有請行政院主計總處陳副主計長、監察院王代理秘書長及紀律委員會鄭執行秘書。"],["主席：請陳副主計長、王代理秘書長及紀律委員會鄭執行秘書。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主計長好、代理秘書長好、鄭執行秘書好。鄭執行秘書請教一下，剛剛前面黃委員說，如果委員身兼紀律委員，就應該對自己的涉己紀律事件迴避，我想這也是一個基本的利衝迴避原則，如果某黨的前任黨主席因為涉貪遭檢調調查、司法審判，那麼繼任的黨主席可不可以在立法院去質詢司法院或法務部長？"],["鄭執行秘書旭浩：報告委員，這個部分我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不清楚？"],["鄭執行秘書旭浩：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，因為前委員的問題讓人家不知道如何回答，你請回，沒關係。","今天我要正式談的題目是「民進黨廢考監，歡迎藍白跟進，廢止前應守法守憲維持運作」，請教代理秘書長，臺灣第三次主辦APOR年會的經費從哪裡來？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，有關APOR年會的經費是編在監察院114年中央政府總預算案裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：被誰刪除了？立法院多數刪除了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主計長，我們剛剛也聽你解釋過了，動用第二預備金的法源依據，根據預算法第二十二條第二項「立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額，不得動支預備金。」對不對？你剛剛有講了嘛。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是後段「但法定經費或經立法院同意者，不在此限。」請問，今天我們是來討論，剛剛那筆被刪除的預算是法定經費，或者那筆經費被立法院同意才能不在此限？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，我們是要針對原先刪減，然後現在看立法院是不是同意讓我們動支。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以立法院同意之後就可以嘛。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，請回。","接下來，代理秘書長，我們看一下下一頁簡報，看起來大家都有一點年紀，在20年前有一個彩券廣告，就是一個爸爸帶著小孩，常常跟他的小孩說：「喜歡嗎？爸爸買給你」，因為中了彩券什麼都有，現在我們看到，民眾黨就像被寵壞的小孩，要修憲就全靠「傅」爸爸，動不動就要國民黨支持它一廂情願的提案。請問修憲提案是國會過半數就可以決定嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：並不是這樣，依照憲法增修條文第十二條的規定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要多少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：它是要四分之三、四分之三。"],["鍾委員佳濱：四分之三、四分之三，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，現在在野黨，尤其是民眾黨的黨主席，他說什麼？他說要開始來修改憲法，對不對？他說：「廢除早已失去存在價值、淪為酬庸養老與政治打手之監察院，以完善國家憲政體制，啟動我國憲政改革」，他要修增修條文第三條、第四條及第七條，我們看他需要得到多少人連署？要29個，他現在有32個。結果我們看了一下，「傅」爸爸給他多少個？民眾黨8個，國民黨24個，這24個當中，有13個不需要面對罷免，包括3加1的原住民委員，包括不分區的委員，以及包括了像陳玉珍這種僥倖沒有被提罷免的，結果13位不需要面對罷免的，勇敢地來參加這個提案。","但是我們看到了，這個提案誰跑掉了？王鴻薇，這個面對罷免的委員說：「這不是藍白合作，開放個人連署。」誰連署了？許宇甄（國民黨組發會主委），不過他撤簽了，組發會的主委為什麼要撤簽？他不是不分區的嗎？為什麼撤簽？因為可能擔心有案在身，現在司法檢調單位在查偽造連署，假冒、冒名連署的，已經查到哪裡了？查到國民黨組發會的副主委了，所以怎麼樣？他跑掉了。所以我們看到了，剛剛那個就是什麼？不怕死的碰到不知死活的，還有11個不知死活的、面對罷免的在那邊聯合提案。來，我問一下，廢除監察院，朱立倫要改黨章嗎？對不起，代理秘書長，你有沒有看過國民黨的黨章？"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，沒有，國民黨的黨章奉行五權憲法。剛剛說憲法增修條文規定修憲要四分之三決議，你認為朱立倫主席會同意修改國民黨黨章嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我沒有辦法回答。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很難回答，因為你也不是國民黨黨員。好，我們來看一下，修憲委員會中民進黨始終主張廢考監，在110年第10屆的時候，我們成立了修憲委員會，而且我們要求刪除第六條、第七條，將考試院跟監察院廢掉，提案人包括柯建銘、劉世芳跟蔡適應，我們當時的修憲主張是這樣。你來猜猜看，當年這個修憲提案，修憲委員會國民黨有沒有參加？不曉得？因為第10屆我在，我是修憲委員會的5個召集委員之一，結果修憲遇到廢考監，修憲委員會國民黨14個委員3次會議統統缺席，不敢面對，您覺得國民黨真心要廢除考試院、監察院嗎？歷史斑斑可考，你覺得他們是真心的嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：監察院完全尊重修憲的程序。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，監察院完全尊重立法院的修憲委員會，但是立法院自己的修憲委員會，藍委全部落跑。再來，我們看一下，我想縱使目前你們仍在監察院，但是我們也可以去思考國家怎麼進步。民進黨主張廢除監察院是有配套的，人權保障不能少，貪官污吏跑不掉。首先，目前國家人權委員會是不是設在監察院裡面？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的，在109年成立。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果監察院廢掉了，你覺得國家人權委員會要不要繼續維持？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是國家一個重要的機構。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，再來，目前監察院負責公職人員財產申報，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要讓貪官污吏不能跑掉，申報機關是監察院，監察院如果廢掉了，申報的機制要不要維持？"],["王代理秘書長增華：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然要維持，好，謝謝。我們看一下結論，國民黨要挺白修憲，要不要先問問中南海？為什麼？因為修憲提案通過之後，它要經過中華民國自由地區人民投票複決，這是公民投票。結果國台辦說什麼？現在國台辦說：「臺灣的人民，不要罷免國民黨！」可是在2022年中共的發言人馬曉光說：「所謂的『修憲公投』根本就是為了『修憲謀獨』而鋪路造勢」。所以國民黨要配合黃國昌黨主席，配合民眾黨去修憲，要不要先問問中南海？","最後結論，代理秘書長，為了維護我國國際聲譽，並善盡會員義務，保障世界各國會員的權益，你是不是同意，也支持我們儘速同意動支第二預備金？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，也謝謝你們，如果有認識國民黨黨員，跟他說國民黨要廢考試院、要廢監察院，先修改黨章再來談修憲，謝謝。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝。"],["主席：接著請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5063cf95978a18fb7088be1699f4405fe9f4ee86841c083e3aaaa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:44:18 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因為現在就是說針對總共要提追加的項目還在做最後確認當中所以什麼時候會提出來我們就我的了解可能看是不是這一兩個月吧回去喔"},{"start":86.431,"end":114.886,"text":"提醒一下卓榮泰院長承諾的事要做到上一次總質詢的時候高精素美委員直接問行政院院長卓榮泰在那邊吱吱嗚嗚的到底要不要依照上次在行政院他召集各黨團的代表提追加預算不敢承諾回去提醒卓榮泰院長"},{"start":116.521,"end":125.007,"text":"簽字的是他如果連這種簽字的卓榮泰都不認帳的話這個行政院院長講的話還有誰會相信可以嗎可以嗎可以回去轉告卓榮泰嗎辦理追加的部分我們會來處理會來處理嗎好說得非常好接下來請檢察院委員好"},{"start":145.188,"end":171.048,"text":"之前啊監察委員包括秘書長違法濫用公務車啊輿論軒然大波上一次我在世華法治委員會請教你啊說李鴻鈞說要立即啟動調查啊立即是多立即結果你上次跟我說紀律委員會連開會的時間都沒有訂嘛好那現在呢紀律委員會終於訂了開會的時間了"},{"start":174.069,"end":190.818,"text":"從五月底的立即到七月現在要開會了好那我們就來檢討一下之前有監委葉大華說啊這個是要怎麼調查這個是涉及事務要怎麼立案調查請問葉大華監委講的是對的嗎"},{"start":194.318,"end":214.612,"text":"跟委員說明我上次也說明過其實在監察院的紀律委員會所處理的事務都是監察委員的涉及事務所以葉大法講的不對嗎這是委員的觀點第二個問題紀律委員會開會以前監察院有沒有確認過這七名紀律委員會的委員自己有沒有濫用公務車的情況"},{"start":225.182,"end":237.166,"text":"你不要等到紀律委員會開會的時候啊被人家爆出來原來紀律委員會的委員自己也濫用公務車啊就難看了這件事情監察院有沒有先確認過紀律委員會開會的部分只要三分之二的我知道這個法定門檻我都知道我只是要問監察院確認過這七名紀律委員會的委員自己有沒有濫用公務車有確認過了嗎"},{"start":254.912,"end":271.067,"text":"報告委員 這個不是法定程序這不是法定程序 那我就問嘛依照所謂監察院的法定程序紀律委員會的委員如果自己有濫用公務車的話他還可以針對這個紀律事項開會成為委員嗎紀律委員會也有迴避的規定也有迴避的規定嘛到目前為止7月要開會有沒有委員自己要迴避的"},{"start":282.455,"end":306.149,"text":"就我所知目前是沒有的沒關係啊 我今天藉由公開的質詢啊是在提醒這紀律委員會七名委員啊想清楚啊不要到時候紀律委員會開會啊連紀律委員自己都被爆出來濫用公務車啊到時候就很難看了啦到時候就很難看了那接下來就有個問題啊紀律委員會處理的是監委嘛 對不對那祕書長咧"},{"start":310.407,"end":336.385,"text":"跟委員說明就是上次我也說明過其實是台北地檢署這兩回事吧監察法的規定施行細則的規定你作為代理秘書長應該很清楚檢調是檢調監察院是監察院你們自己的施行細則就寫得很清楚了那我現在問題來了自立委員會只處理監委"},{"start":338.936,"end":362.821,"text":"那秘書長處理不處理接下來監察院要怎麼辦我跟委員說明記憶委員會他們處理的方式有非常的多元處理的方式當然是多元嘛我現在先問你嘛我們依法論法記憶委員會處理的對象是不是限於監委還是包括秘書長"},{"start":366.098,"end":390.257,"text":"原則上是處理監委是沒有錯你講原則上是監委有例外嗎可是就是如果因為紀律委員會也可以立案調查立案調查是只有紀律委員會才能立案調查還是一般的監委就可以立案調查紀律委員會也可以立案調查這是兩回事嘛紀律委員會我就說了他處理的對象是監委嘛那現在針對秘書長的部分"},{"start":392.406,"end":410.996,"text":"你們其他的監委有要立案調查嗎跟委員說明我們的新聞稿裡面也有提到到如果這個案件經過紀律委員會立案調查他的調查範圍他的調查事項完全要尊重調查委員的的框定這樣對啊但問題他的對象根本不一樣啊"},{"start":413.886,"end":442.793,"text":"我有說錯嗎就是如果紀律委員會就是立案調查如果紀律委員會立案調查他的立案調查是經過監察院的同意去立案調查立案調查的時候不是啊你為什麼繼續啊在扯紀律委員會我搞不懂現在我問你對象是秘書長秘書長是紀律委員會要處理的範圍嗎這個問題有這麼難懂嗎你作為代理秘書長監察院自己主管的法規都不熟嗎"},{"start":445.046,"end":468.755,"text":"我剛剛說明是說來我直接跟你講啦現在涉案的監委有三名喔他們自己針對其他的公務員濫用公務車他們提過彈劾案喔他們提過彈劾案喔他們自己去彈劾其他的公務員喔說這些公務員濫用公務車要被彈劾喔"},{"start":471.061,"end":498.159,"text":"來 法規上監察委員可不可以被彈劾可以吧可以秘書長可不可以被彈劾可以辭職以後的秘書長可不可以被彈劾可以過去有沒有秘書長被彈劾過的有的有嘛我們現在喔 接下來全民睜大眼睛看監察委員自己濫用公務車去彈劾公務員濫用公務車"},{"start":501.008,"end":511.945,"text":"這幾個監委到今天還賴在位子上我看的是瞠目結舌啦報告委員這幾個那他們是打算怎麼樣利用監察院的紀律委員會打算官官相護嗎"},{"start":514.127,"end":535.721,"text":"這幾個彈劾案我們有了解一下有三個彈劾案都是有關於公務車使用的部分可是這三個彈劾案完全不是單單針對公務車的使用都有其他的所以什麼你現在急著開始幫這些監委開脫了這麼急喔委員我只是說明事實這麼急著開始幫他們開脫了全民都在看啊你們看時間上面要怎麼拖延"},{"start":543.223,"end":562.924,"text":"最後結果終究是要出來的啦結果終究是要出來的啦我希望監察院不要把副院長對全民所做的承諾當成空爆彈好 謝謝 謝謝國昌委員接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":209,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時44分）好，謝謝主席，麻煩有請主計總處副主計長、監察院代理秘書長。"],["主席：好，請副主計長跟代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。今天主計長請假，我先請教副主計長，去年6月三讀通過原住民禁伐補償每公頃調升到6萬元，在這個法律通過了以後，行政院一度有抗拒，後來行政院院長找了朝野黨團的代表到行政院去開會，作成一個決議說今年要透過辦理追加預算的方式來予以支應，請問什麼時候要提出來？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：目前在彙整當中，因為還有連同其他的項目可能也會辦追加，所以目前在彙整當中。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要提出來？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：彙整的時程我不是很確定，但是會儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：你不是副主計長嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：那誰知道？只有卓榮泰知道嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：不是，因為現在針對總共要提追加的項目還在做最後的確認當中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以什麼時候會提出來？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就我的了解，可能看是不是這一、兩個月吧！"],["黃委員國昌：回去提醒一下卓榮泰院長，承諾的事要做到，上一次總質詢的時候，高金素梅委員直接問行政院院長卓榮泰，在那邊支支吾吾的，到底要不要依照上次在行政院他召集各黨團的代表提追加預算？不敢承諾。回去提醒卓榮泰院長，簽字的是他，如果連這種簽字的卓榮泰都不認帳的話，那麼行政院院長講的話還有誰會相信，可以嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是……"],["黃委員國昌：可以回去轉告卓榮泰嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：辦理追加的部分我們會來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：會來處理嘛！好，說得非常好。","接下來請監察院。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：之前監察委員包括秘書長違法濫用公務車，輿論軒然大波，上一次我在司法及法制委員會請教你，李鴻鈞說要立即啟動調查，立即是多立即？結果你上次跟我說紀律委員會連開會的時間都沒有訂，現在紀律委員會終於訂了開會的時間，從5月底的「立即」，到7月要開會了。我們就來檢討一下，之前有監委葉大華說這個要怎麼調查，這個是涉己事務，要怎麼立案調查？請問葉大華監委講的是對的嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我上次也說明過，其實監察院紀律委員會所處理的事務都是監察委員的涉己事務，這個案件……"],["黃委員國昌：所以葉大華講的不對嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是委員的觀點。"],["黃委員國昌：這是委員的觀點，好。第二個問題，紀律委員會開會以前，監察院有沒有確認過這7名紀律委員會的委員自己有沒有濫用公務車的情況？不要等到紀律委員會開會的時候被人家爆出來，原來紀律委員會的委員自己也濫用公務車，就難看了啊！這件事情監察院有沒有先確認過？"],["王代理秘書長增華：紀律委員會開會的部分，只要三分之二的出席委員……"],["黃委員國昌：我知道，這個法定門檻我都知道，我只是要問監察院確認過這7名紀律委員會的委員自己有沒有濫用公務車，有確認過了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，這個不是法定程序。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是法定程序，那我就問嘛！依照所謂監察院的法定程序，紀律委員會的委員如果自己有濫用公務車的話，他還可以成為委員針對這個紀律事項開會嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：紀律委員會也有迴避的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：也有迴避的規定嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：對。"],["黃委員國昌：到目前為止，7月要開會，有沒有委員自己要迴避的？"],["王代理秘書長增華：就我所知，目前是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！我今天藉由公開的質詢，是在提醒這紀律委員會7名委員，想清楚啊！不要到時候紀律委員會開會，連紀律委員自己都被爆出來濫用公務車，到時候就很難看了啦！接下來就有個問題，紀律委員會處理的是監委，對不對？那秘書長呢？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，上次我也說明過，其實是臺北地檢署……"],["黃委員國昌：這兩回事吧！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["黃委員國昌：監察法的規定、施行細則的規定，你作為代理秘書長，應該很清楚嘛！檢調是檢調，監察院是監察院，你們自己的施行細則就寫得很清楚啦！我現在問題來了，紀律委員會只處理監委，那秘書長處理不處理？接下來監察院要怎麼辦？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我跟委員說明，紀律委員會他們處理的方式非常多元，可以請……"],["黃委員國昌：處理的方式當然是多元，我現在先問你，我們依法論法，紀律委員會處理的對象是不是限於監委，還是包括秘書長？"],["王代理秘書長增華：原則上是處理監委，是沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：你講原則上是監委，有例外嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可是因為紀律委員會也可以立案調查。"],["黃委員國昌：立案調查是只有紀律委員會才能立案調查，還是一般的監委就可以立案調查？"],["王代理秘書長增華：紀律委員會也可以立案調查。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，這個是兩回事，我就說了，紀律委員會處理的對象是監委嘛！現在針對秘書長的部分，你們其他的監委有要立案調查嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我們的新聞稿裡面也有提到，如果這個案件經過紀律委員會立案調查，它的調查範圍、調查事項完全要尊重調查委員的框定。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！但問題它的對象根本不一樣啊！我有說錯嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：如果紀律委員會立案調查，它的立案調查是經過監察院的同意去立案調查，立案調查的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，你為什麼繼續在扯紀律委員會？我搞不懂，現在我問你對象是秘書長，秘書長是紀律委員會要處理的範圍嗎？這個問題有這麼難懂嗎？你作為代理秘書長，監察院自己主管的法規都不熟嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我剛剛說明的是……"],["黃委員國昌：我直接跟你講啦！現在涉案的監委有3名，他們自己針對其他的公務員濫用公務車有提過彈劾案喔！他們自己去彈劾其他的公務員，說這些公務員濫用公務車要被彈劾。在法規上，監察委員可不可以被彈劾？可以吧！"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長可不可以被彈劾？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：辭職以後的秘書長可不可以被彈劾？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：過去有沒有秘書長被彈劾過的？"],["王代理秘書長增華：有的。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！接下來，全民睜大眼睛看，監察委員自己濫用公務車，去彈劾公務員濫用公務車，這幾個監委到今天還賴在位置上，我看得是瞠目結舌啦！"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，這幾個……"],["黃委員國昌：他們是打算怎麼樣？打算利用監察院的紀律委員會官官相護嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這幾個彈劾案我們有了解一下，有三個彈劾案是關於公務車使用的部分，可是這三個彈劾案不是完全單單針對公務車的使用，都有其他的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以？你現在急著開始幫這些監委開脫了喔！這麼急喔！"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，我只是說明事實。"],["黃委員國昌：這麼急著開始幫他們開脫了喔！全民都在看啦！你們看時間上面要怎麼拖延，最後結果終究是要出來的，我希望監察院不要把副院長對全民所做的承諾當成空包彈。"],["主席：謝謝國昌委員。","接著請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db506be726d4419558dd58be1699f4405fe9f4ee86841c083e3aaddd93173464eae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:35:57 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因為你扯到外交我就說你在外交上有什麼實質的成效啦我是覺得你這個部分要多琢磨一點啦就是說因為跟著這樣連結之後那將來有一個什麼樣多一個互動或什麼這樣會比較好一點我意思是說這樣會更具有說服力嘛因為畢竟是國際組織嘛對啊而不是說舉辦一次會議而已我是跟你建議說最好是這樣會更具有說服力那第二個的部分呢就預算上呢基本上呢"},{"start":142.771,"end":156.443,"text":"反而現在的物價越來越高你相對14年來說預算不增反減這讓人家很意外啊監察院比較會省錢嗎還是以前的監察院比較浪費還是怎麼樣的原因你不能說明一下"},{"start":157.737,"end":171.267,"text":"跟委員說明其實每次監察院在編列預算的時候都非常的確實跟嚴謹那以前不確實囉每次都是非常確實嚴謹那為什麼以前多現在少14年前我跟委員報告一下我們2011年編列777萬777萬2000元我看到是779萬"},{"start":179.833,"end":186.679,"text":"777萬2000元然後到了結束的時候我們有核算過總支出是669萬9872元在2019年我們編列了751萬5500元然後最後總支出是616萬7982元其實我們也有去 喔了解"},{"start":204.996,"end":230.231,"text":"就決算的部分其實沒有預算數那麼多啦還差了100多萬啦所以說其實這次也不用變那麼多啦好 這樣我了解就決算數的差別好 那另外一個部分據我了解今年的預算那個監察院被砍了96%業務費嘛雖然連整個伊甸基金會的人員都減半還積欠先知到五月底還積欠133萬"},{"start":235.209,"end":245.861,"text":"這個真的情何以堪啊 監察院欺欠弱勢團體這有沒有什麼方式可以解套這個萬一弱勢團體以後來跟我們陳情的話你覺得我們要怎麼處理啊"},{"start":249.517,"end":266.847,"text":"就是有關於醫店在幫忙協助監察院有關於整個全院的清潔的部分那其實一開始我們是15位可是因為預算被整個刪除所以我們就保留了7位7位完全都是工作量不是加倍了嗎"},{"start":267.227,"end":290.406,"text":"都是生長人士那相關的工作呢我們在院裡面也盡量去我簡單的講接下來這些基線的款項什麼時候要準備來處理你們怎麼處理這有可能繼續動用預備金的方式嗎預備金的金額夠不夠待會我會問那個副作你們是有打算用同樣的模式嗎"},{"start":291.797,"end":302.987,"text":"跟委員說明,除了這750以外的確監察院還有跟行政院,透過行政院去請求另外的7900萬那什麼時候再送進來,一次再送進來,變成我們還要審兩次副主席長"},{"start":313.084,"end":333.236,"text":"就是說監察院這個因為他是國際會議舉辦在即所以他這個案子送的比較快另外我有盤點過就是說包括監察院其他的業務費的不足以及總統府或者是行政院等等有另外第二批也會來動惡"},{"start":334.517,"end":353.323,"text":"那你們有去統計過不論是行政院或者總統府或者是說監察院他可能動資到二倍金的部分的金額目前大概多少因為你二倍金總共也不過八十億啊而且現階段就我理解的部分已經動用了二十幾億了嘛應該不足六十億了嘛"},{"start":357.069,"end":373.377,"text":"目前第二批會送過來是1.5億那是哪幾個單位總統府行政院不當黨產委員會跟監察院行政院黨產委員會跟監察院大概什麼時候會再送"},{"start":374.165,"end":397.195,"text":"這個就我們了解我們大院的那個院會已經交付審查就是等委員會看什麼時候安排如果是這樣子的話那我再問一下那個監察院監察院現在其實對立委官員來說最恐怖的事情就是要職本申報這個到底有沒有辦法什麼解決"},{"start":400.322,"end":414.066,"text":"跟委員說明就是因為我們的業務費用真的是36%所以不是只有財深的他的相關的費用要可支應我簡單的問啦等到二倍金下一次二倍金的使用這1.5億當中能不能解決這個問題"},{"start":416.187,"end":437.46,"text":"可以可以齁就可以一任而解齁我跟你講要廢監察案不容易啊因為你怎麼廢你也廢不了這個監察的職權啊它只是分屬在體制的不同部門而已監察權還是很重要希望在這個預算被刪減的過程當中我們的監察權還是可以順利運作得以落實齁繼續加油副局長我最後問一個問題齁副局長"},{"start":439.341,"end":463.659,"text":"最近有關於北約組織希望國防預算達到GDP的5%我們台灣目前在美方的要求之下也有喊到3也有喊到5也有喊到10實際上我們今年總體的國防預算總共加起來是2.45%明年的概算已經出來了有沒有可能再增加在努力當中還在努力當中總統就說3%"},{"start":466.124,"end":483.993,"text":"你們有沒有可能達到3%至少3%我們就朝這個目標來朝這個目標在努力所以說明年的國防預算至少3%就是因為國防預算就它的來源包括年度預算對我知道啦就是總統的目標你會不會把它達成對我們會朝這個目標來努力好謝謝你 謝謝接著請黃國昌委員質詢黃國昌黃國昌"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":134,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時36分）主席，有請陳慧娟副主計長，還有監察院王代理秘書長。"],["主席：好，請副主計長還有王代理秘書長。"],["郭委員國文：我先就教於王代理秘書長，其實這個年會之前已經辦過，今年算辦第三次嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["郭委員國文：上次也是動用二備金，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，在108年。"],["郭委員國文：好像是因為來不及編列。"],["王代理秘書長增華：對。"],["郭委員國文：那這一次在法源上主計總處也應該是OK，對不對？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["郭委員國文：其實剛剛賴士葆委員也有強調，站在一個國家的立場，他不會反對，我相信從一個理性問政的角度都應該要支持才對。不過就邦交國的部分我們要鞏固邦交，可是我看起來這邊好像沒有邦交國，主要是在美中之間有外交戰場，我們需要跟這些人聯繫一些關係吧！你能不能稍微表述一下，過去主辦了兩場，有沒有什麼樣的實質成效？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員報告，我們有辦過兩次，分別是在2011年跟2019年。"],["郭委員國文：對，我知道，實質的成效是什麼？"],["王代理秘書長增華：其實就是因為監察院是APOR的正式會員，我們是有投票權的，那參加相關的年會，甚至主辦相關的年會，這個是會員重要的義務，然後真的對我們國家來講……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，因為你扯到外交，我就問你在外交上有什麼實質的成效，我是覺得你對這個部分要多著墨一點。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["郭委員國文：就是說因為有這樣連結之後，那將來有多一些互動或什麼，這樣會比較好一點，我的意思是說這樣會更具有說服力，因為畢竟是國際組織而不是只舉辦一次會議而已，我是建議你最好是這樣，因為會更具有說服力。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：第二個，在預算方面，基本上，現在的物價愈來愈高，相對於14年前來說，預算不增反減，這也讓人家很意外啊！是監察院比較會省錢嗎？或是以前的監察院比較浪費，還是怎麼樣的原因，能不能說明一下？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，其實每次監察院在編列預算的時候都非常的確實跟嚴謹……"],["郭委員國文：那以前不確實囉？"],["王代理秘書長增華：每次都是非常確實、嚴謹……"],["郭委員國文：那為什麼和14年前相比是以前多而現在少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我跟委員報告一下，我們2011年編列777萬2,000元……"],["郭委員國文：我看到的是779萬。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是777萬2,000元，然後在結束的時候我們有核算過，總支出是669萬9,872元，在2019年我們編列了751萬5,500元，然後最後總支出是616萬7,982元。"],["郭委員國文：了解，就是決算的部分其實沒有預算數那麼多，還差了一百多萬，所以其實這次也不用編那麼多。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["郭委員國文：好，這樣我了解，就是決算數的差別。","另外還有一個部分，據我了解，今年監察院的業務費被砍了96%，所以連整個伊甸基金會的人員都減半，還積欠薪資，到5月底積欠了133萬，這個真的是情何以堪啊！監察院積欠弱勢團體，這有沒有什麼方式可以解套？萬一那個弱勢團體以後來跟我們陳情的話，你覺得我們要怎麼處理啊？"],["王代理秘書長增華：關於伊甸協助監察院全院清潔的部分，其實一開始我們是有15位，可是因為預算被整個刪除，所以我們就保留了7位，這7位完全都是身障人士……"],["郭委員國文：這樣他們的工作量不是加倍了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：那相關的工作我們在院裡面也儘量去勻支人員的……"],["郭委員國文：我簡單的講，接下來，你準備在什麼時候來處理這些積欠的款項？你們要怎麼處理？有可能繼續用動用預備金的方式嗎？預備金的金額夠不夠？待會我會問副座，你們是有打算用同樣的模式嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，除了這750萬以外，的確監察院還有透過行政院去請求另外的……"],["郭委員國文：金額大概是多少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：7,900萬。"],["郭委員國文：7,900萬？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，因為我們目前已經……"],["郭委員國文：那什麼時候再送進來？你們怎麼不一次送進來，這樣變成我們還要審兩次？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這個我們……"],["郭委員國文：請副主計長說明。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，監察院是因為這個國際會議舉辦在即，所以這個案子送得比較快。"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：另外，我們有盤點過，就是包括監察院其他業務費的不足以及總統府或者是行政院等等，有另外第二批也會來動二。"],["郭委員國文：那你們有去統計過行政院、總統府或監察院可能動支到二備金的金額目前大概是多少嗎？因為二備金總共夯不啷噹也不過80億，而且據我了解，現階段已經動用了二十幾億，應該不足60億了。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，目前第二批會送過來的是1.5億。"],["郭委員國文：1.5億？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["郭委員國文：是哪幾個單位？大概什麼時候？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：總統府、行政院、不當黨產處理委員會跟監察院。"],["郭委員國文：行政院、不當黨產處理委員會跟監察院，大概什麼時候會再送？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就我們的了解，我們大院的院會已經交付審查，就是等委員會看什麼時候安排。"],["郭委員國文：就等委員會排而已嘛！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["郭委員國文：好，如果是這樣子的話，那我再問一下監察院，其實現在對立委、官員來說，最恐怖的事情就是要紙本申報，這個到底有沒有什麼辦法可以解決？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，因為我們的業務費真的是刪了96%，所以不是只有財申的相關費用要……"],["郭委員國文：我簡單的問，等到下一次二備金的使用，這1.5億到底能不能解決這個問題？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["郭委員國文：那問題就可以迎刃而解。我跟你講，要廢監察院不容易啊！因為你怎麼廢也廢不了監察的職權，它只是分屬在整個體制的不同部門而已，監察權還是很重要，希望在這個預算被刪減的過程當中，我們的監察權還是可以順利運作並得以落實，請繼續加油。","副主計長，我最後要問你一個問題，最近北約組織希望國防預算要達到GDP的5%，然後我們臺灣目前在美方的要求之下有喊到3%、有喊到5%，也有喊到10%。事實上，我們今年總體的國防預算總共加起來是2.45%，那明年的概算已經出來了，有沒有可能再增加？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：在努力當中。"],["郭委員國文：還在努力當中？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["郭委員國文：總統都說3%了，有沒有可能至少達到3%？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們就朝這個目標來努力。"],["郭委員國文：在朝這個目標努力？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以明年的國防預算至少3%？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為國防預算的來源包括年度預算、特別預算等等……"],["郭委員國文：對，我知道，你會不會達成總統的目標？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們會朝這個目標來努力。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},{"id":"162888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b546098ab7db5063b4f4906ac109b938be1699f4405fe9f4ee86841c083e3aa5a3d332f07b030805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:27:55 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台灣要負很大責任啦台灣要負很大責任 否則這個朝野犧牲的話你保留在朝野犧牲一定過的啦因為這是提升中華民國的能見度提升台灣的能見度 沒有理由反對啊"},{"start":81.42,"end":96.146,"text":"沒有理由反對他了所以我先講我的立場就是我支持這一個但是我要想問的就是你的法源在哪裡法源根據什麼法法源為什麼要用第二義背經"},{"start":102.732,"end":124.923,"text":"就是說因為第二預備金當時這個22條第二項的規定他首先先尊重立法院審議就是說如果立法院刪減了就不能再動之第二預備金然後後面加了但書就是說保留一個彈性如果是立法院同意的話那就不再出現所以是有但書的"},{"start":126.244,"end":140.141,"text":"就是真的有需要你提出來說服立委們基本上是可以的可以用的這個清清楚楚喔沒有說是在那裡啊啊啊開始就很清楚嘛這個現在已經都清楚知道了嘛這個"},{"start":142.123,"end":165.611,"text":"柯建民在去年的1月13日選完之後1月15日就發想起大罷免偷跑 半年前就偷跑明明規定奧運醫療才能夠來罷免立委才開始運作 他事先偷跑然後現在知道 主謀是賴清德總統所以可以這麼講啊這次大罷免就是賴清德加柯建民兩個狼狽為奸啦"},{"start":172.168,"end":189.856,"text":"整個都這一齣啊然後昨天的加上昨天的什麼雜誌說啊雜誌說啊其實大家對監察院最大的意見呢最大的意見是什麼就是現在民進黨執政這八年來超過九年了齁把監察院大法官應該中立應該獨立完全內閣化"},{"start":200.33,"end":205.096,"text":"所以這個副秘書長 你們幫我回答 我這邊給你聽他的雜誌說 總統還在硬拗 越謀越黑他就提到 通過選舉罷免 讓這個雜誌就去掉"},{"start":218.416,"end":234.864,"text":"去腐純青啊 那就是很簡單的 白澳來講就是去掉非民進黨旗的所以就變成全面執政 那就全面獨裁喔所以我就請教副秘書長啊 結尾稀釋詩群還要顏色化嗎 看顏色嗎"},{"start":239.202,"end":262.148,"text":"跟委員說明是依照憲法徵修條文第七條的第五項監察委員要超越黨派對啦要超越黨派啦我到現在為止一直沒有辦法原諒監察院的其中幾個監察委員就是監察委員是御史大夫怎麼會這麼沒有風格當初在COVID-19的時候要約談陳時中"},{"start":265.609,"end":269.37,"text":"然後被蘇貞昌當時候的行政院長吼回去啦說這個時候怎麼可以約談陳時中好 那個時候就不敢約談啦那現在為什麼不約談呢難道共產黨疫苗的問題沒有問題嗎快篩劑沒有問題嗎高端的事情沒有問題嗎到現在為止立法委員要行使這個資料的調閱的職權都丟不到資料啊重要資料都被塗掉"},{"start":292.731,"end":321.111,"text":"清清楚楚看得到嗎現在的監察院全面的內閣化大法官也是如此這個是本席啊所最討恨的一個好好的政府的各單位民進黨執政就把他搶搶搶搶到那邊完全完全只有一種聲音這種聲音就是民進黨的聲音揮我足淚就給他戴帽子哦 這個就是中共統禄人就是到底這個樣子這種悲哀在這裡的"},{"start":323.055,"end":343.444,"text":"最後一點我想告訴副秘書長的監察院我們在審查的時候副院長李鴻鈞被提名人他在這裡公開承諾因為有委員提到可以不可以公佈每一位監委的出席率各監委的提案書、調查書、就團書其實老闆是很關心的"},{"start":353.124,"end":363.06,"text":"為什麼會一直有說這些 但對經委說是不是要廢掉幹什麼的就是你們不夠透明這個胡秘書長講一下 崔熙立有沒有公佈"},{"start":365.151,"end":392.113,"text":"要跟委員說明有關於監察院委員參與參與院會各常設委員會招集人會議等等的相關的會議的記錄都會完全公開透明會公布然後另外有關於委員的提案數調查數提案糾纏的相關的案件數都會在我們的網路上面公開會每個月都有相關的統計數據所以是"},{"start":395.316,"end":406.854,"text":"監察院事實上是盡量朝公開透明把相關的職權行使都讓我看到了監委的出席率沒有公佈喔監委的出席率沒有公佈喔"},{"start":407.639,"end":434.4,"text":"報告委員是他的會議紀錄裡面有出席率 會議紀錄不是的不是的他要自己整理我們就是要公佈因為這是李鴻鈞答應在提名的時候他公開承諾要公佈監委的出席率監委你說會議紀錄自己去找怎麼會這個樣子呢可以吧 這個可以你行政處可以做得到吧回去告訴李副院長他公開承諾的"},{"start":435.373,"end":462.905,"text":"他跟我承諾了 我的結論 我的時間到了 我的結論就是我支持這一次的750萬 因為這個增加提高中華民國 提高台灣的能見度的一個中華會議沒有理由不支持 我支持但是 但是李鴻鈞公開承諾的要公佈媒會監委的出席率要做到 好不好你回去報告一個月內 我們希望就能夠看了答案好 謝謝"},{"start":464.425,"end":466.927,"text":"好 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監察院王代理秘書長今天為了這個750萬的這個要動用第二預備金立法院專門財政委員會專門開這個會這個還不是只有委員會同意就可以了還要到院會去這功臣浩大"},{"start":30.974,"end":48.129,"text":"為了750萬所發揮的這些行政成本恐怕就已經佔了相當的比例了你看這麼多的立法委員要開一天的會然後立法院要為這個開一天的會然後要送到院會 全院的委員會來決議你不覺得這樣子有點功成浩大嗎"},{"start":51.757,"end":62.566,"text":"報告委員監察院的確是有時間上的急迫性然後真的有時虛那為了國家的形象所以會這樣子的提出走這樣子的預算法的程序"},{"start":63.547,"end":88.396,"text":"我就是提醒你觀察到最後才想要詳細的了解這個預算為什麼會被刪掉啊你們原來在本院在審理預算的時候你們委員會是內政司法法治委員會那司法法治委員會在審查預算的時候你們沒有跟他好好報告嗎你們沒有好好跟他們說明嗎為什麼這些委員要刪除你們這個預算呢可不可以說明一下"},{"start":92.707,"end":113.743,"text":"跟委員說明本院監察院的預算是在立法院的司法及法治委員會當時我們是提出來把這個相關的預算是放在議事的業務裡面總共剛剛有1800多萬然後在委員會審查的時候是沒有任何的結果就是保留送院會處理"},{"start":114.864,"end":135.145,"text":"我的意思是說在審查過程中因為我也在本院在立法院已經二十幾年了審查的過程中是我們這需要預算的單位要很積極的跟該委會的委員做溝通說明說這一筆經費對我們確實有急需有很需要你們有去做這個詳盡的說明嗎"},{"start":137.467,"end":156.041,"text":"跟我說明在審預算的過程中當時是我們的前秘書長李秘書長都有做非常詳細的說明然後我們也有特別強調本筆經費的重要性跟急迫性所以在委員會是全案保留送院會那院會的時候"},{"start":159.229,"end":165.438,"text":"在提出要刪減在院會這個階層提出要刪減這個預算的提案的時候你們有沒有機會來跟這個立法院的黨團各個黨團做說明做報告啊"},{"start":175.519,"end":192.598,"text":"在院會審查的時候原則上我們沒有這樣子的機會再做說明所以就是這個預算你們當初因為有需要所以你們編列了那編列送到本院來之後給司法法制委會審查你們的預算的時候"},{"start":193.578,"end":204.608,"text":"他是有經過詳細的說明但是全案保留送院會那院會提出三檢動議的這個過程中幾乎也沒有協討的機會嘛你們連講話的機會都沒有嘛這樣就預算就亂七八糟就亂砍一堆啦請問監察院的這些經費被砍到你們的理負院長有來跟我說明啊說被砍了90幾%啊"},{"start":218.849,"end":227.072,"text":"他說企務監察院就沒有辦法運作啊李副院長跟我們市立法院的老同事啊那你們以前的李秘書長也是我們的老同事李副院長"},{"start":231.713,"end":251.409,"text":"是我地方上我的朋友啊他就遇到我就跟我講說啊這個根本監察院就運作不下去啊那目前除了這750萬因為你們要辦這個世界的會年會的會議你認為有急需之外那其他的呢其他的監察院怎麼辦還是監察院這個機關所有的人都領薪水就好了什麼事情都不用做啊"},{"start":253.922,"end":276.901,"text":"跟委員說明監察院的確是相關的業務費用是佔了96%那所以是因為我們是憲政機關相關的監察業務甚至其他的法定的業務比如說像陽光司法國家人權等等的都必須要落實運作所以監察院在3月份的時候有提出"},{"start":277.882,"end":277.902,"text":"大廳話語"},{"start":299.534,"end":309.85,"text":"李副院長跟我講說電費只有繳到二月後面都是用欠的那你打算怎麼還台電這筆錢啊難怪台電都被這些政府機關欠電費難怪人家付不出來人家台電會虧損啊要補給人家利息嗎"},{"start":313.376,"end":337.371,"text":"更為說明 有關於本院到114年5月底我們總共已經欠費1150多萬元那其中有關於電費的部分呢 也是324萬我一個建議啦 這個你聽聽看啦假設這個機關不能運作 大家電都關起來也不要來上班然後在家裡睡覺等著領薪水就好啦因為這是 這是立法院把你們刪除的啊 又不是你們願意的"},{"start":340.296,"end":369.016,"text":"不然大家去立法院 去監察院開電 連電梯都沒有電可以用啊不能坐電梯啊 還不能開啊節省經費 電都關起來 冷氣不要吹對不對我們現在要不要廢除監察院 這是憲政層次的問題但是如果它事實上存在用這樣的方式對待我覺得這是不合理的啊真的沒道理啊 所以預算亂砍"},{"start":370.669,"end":372.59,"text":"面對大罷免才在那邊大緊張所以我就覺得說不能這樣子對外中華民國憲法啦你要修憲 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先做一下說明本委員會在114年6月9日第16次委員會議已就行政院及委員聯席等21條提案主條討論至第13條那審查結果既有第一條第三條至第11條先行保留那本委員會有再加委員邱振軍等委員王玉敏等委員徐宇峥等委員林淑雯等及本席等共5個提案"},{"start":1969.259,"end":1997.361,"text":"與上述兩案並案審查本次交付之提案僅進行提案說明我們就不令做懸打齁那現在來請這個提案的委員說明提案要辭這些提案齁好我們修正等一下修正等一下我等一下部長這邊還要再補充報告啦報告完之後你要再處理下去齁謝謝好"},{"start":2001.961,"end":2005.908,"text":"那我現在是不是就請部長來做補充說明好不好 謝謝"},{"start":2019.423,"end":2047.054,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期社會委員會第十八次全體委員會議審查行政院委員行政院委員林蕾琴等二十一人委員邱振金等十八人委員王以明等二十四人委員徐宇貞等十八人委員林淑芬等二十二人委員劉建國等十九人擬計全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等七案本部呈要列席報告請就"},{"start":2047.774,"end":2069.009,"text":"各委員提案版本提出報告 敬請不定指教一 各委員提案版本 貴委員會於114年6月9日已就行政院及委員林立勤等21人提案並同委員王正旭、王玉敏、林淑芬、劉建國、陳高芝、盧瑄一等6人所提修正動議主條討論制草案第13條"},{"start":2070.31,"end":2095.396,"text":"通過條文三條,保留條文十條,當該委員就本條例提案新增五案本部意見說明如下,見請考量。1.草案第一條,委員徐益臻等18人版本,有關徐益臻等委員建議納入人工智慧應用之條文共九條,考量人工智慧屬資料利用方式之一,建議回歸人工智慧基本法處理。"},{"start":2097.192,"end":2115.384,"text":"2.草案第三條及第六條,委員邱振金等18人版本,健保資料假名化改為去識別化,因去識別化,細指依資料加工程度之高低,區分為匿名化、假名化兩種,如採匿名化資料"},{"start":2116.638,"end":2133.591,"text":"加工後切斷與特定主體的連結,建議維持硯板3.草案第4條、第4條、第5條委員邱振金等18人、委員林淑芬等22人、委員劉建國等19人版本客人資料保護委員會為知議會當然呈言,將以授權辦法納入,並參採委員意見納入並有團體為知議會委員"},{"start":2143.478,"end":2156.963,"text":"4.草案第6條委員王一鳴等24人、委員林時溫等22人版本有關主管機關指派副首長兼任資料保護長及應會同事為發展主管機關考核"},{"start":2158.443,"end":2184.784,"text":"資料庫應各執法修正條文以增訂公務機關應設各執保護長及依治安法規定應設治安長健保資料保護亦應捐照辦理五草案第七條委員王毓民等24人版本有關應會同事會發展主管機關考核受託機構將以授權辦法嚴定六"},{"start":2185.799,"end":2206.426,"text":"草案第八條及第九條委員習宇峥等18人版本有關健保資料不得用於商業保險就業審查及個人化行銷之目的及境外機構法人研究機單位等餘例不得申請因案本已定明申請目的限制須具有特別重要公義用本條例為國內法是規範境內機關購"},{"start":2211.107,"end":2238.18,"text":"學校等且申請者不得為特定目的外利用計畫以外之利用並有罰則建議維持願辦7.草案第10條委員習宇峻等18人委員林子文等22人版本有關刪除行政法人可再討論另應用大量資料之管理規範及應檢討必要性分析報告將以授權辦法嚴定8."},{"start":2240.541,"end":2247.683,"text":"草案第11條委員臨時運動22人版本有關審查會成員參裁委員建議討論9."},{"start":2247.683,"end":2261.245,"text":"草案第13條委員習主任等18人版本增訂嚴禁拍照、錄音及使用聯網設備避免健保資料遭非法複製或外洩將以授權辦法嚴定10."},{"start":2263.786,"end":2276.476,"text":"草案第14條委員民事分等22人版本應公開健保資料庫運用狀況研究結果等資訊參查委員建議增訂11.草案第15條委員細針等18人版本有關明確規範回饋金提撥10%並列年度報告受立案監督將以授權辦法原定"},{"start":2287.665,"end":2304.02,"text":"12.草案第17條,委員王一鳴的24人、委員林思溫等22人版本,有關當事人與保險人締結健保契約時應載明,並徵求當事人同意。因健保為強制性社會保險與商保需締結契約不同。"},{"start":2305.529,"end":2321.71,"text":"健保開辦以上事件如再逐一全面實屬自愛難行令保障當事人於本條例生效後一定期間得選擇其資料是否提供目的外利用建議嚴定一定期間讓民眾選擇適合退出方式"},{"start":2324.372,"end":2351.63,"text":"參採委員建議討論13.草案第19條委員邱振金等18人、委員林淳等22人版本條文不納入為維護國家安全應參考國法例對例外情況之規範如過資法、電信法等均有類級建議維持原版令第一款文字修正可再討論14.草案第21條委員習以臻等18人版本徵定妨害資料系統之行為人為"},{"start":2353.272,"end":2361.838,"text":"惡務部或委外機構人員時加重其罰則,因本條處罰對象為任何人,建議維持原版。15."},{"start":2361.838,"end":2373.328,"text":"草案第二十三條,原王以明的二十四人,原習以正等十八人版本增訂,以取得資證保資料,應予銷毀,因申請者僅能吸出統計結果,無需銷毀。"},{"start":2375.269,"end":2396.294,"text":"另徵令重複違反前項規定者永久限制其申請資料之權利原版已定名按次處罰機構建議維持原版結與以上緊究大院委員提案之本部意見進行報導上請委員繼續支持本部結束通過本條例立法在此敬請謝神 以上謝謝"},{"start":2400.336,"end":2420.526,"text":"好 謝謝部長的補充報告那有關本市會議各項書面資料均會列入紀錄刊登公報那現在我們要繼續來審查全體健康保護險資料管理條例草案等七案那其中有這個五個提案的版本為院會新增交付那提案條文內容"},{"start":2421.646,"end":2430.635,"text":"經理發入這個條文的對照表以便來做審查年同新收的這個修正動議那我們就不再宣讀列入記錄請問委員會有沒有異議"},{"start":2436.761,"end":2443.148,"text":"沒有 好 謝謝那我們就 上次審到13條那我們就接續從第14條來繼續審查以這個行政院提案條次為準進行討論那每個條文我們還是先請行政單位來做這個說明接著會再請委員來表示意見好 陳昭志委員 來"},{"start":2459.571,"end":2464.137,"text":"我想先跟教委報告一下因為今天也有一些再修正動議是有涉及之前討論過的條文那我之前在版本就是說之前我們在判院版本機關認為放入個人資料"},{"start":2474.85,"end":2485.98,"text":"保護委員會因為那個部分我都用保留的方式那有摯愛難行部分所以我也根據這個部分才去進行相應的修正那而且同時我也還是要符合憲法的判決所以我才提出這個修正動議案所以我是不是說請"},{"start":2492.006,"end":2507.343,"text":"趙偉了解說我們今天是從頭看過一遍因為別人也有提出來從第一條的改變還是說如果都不動的話那就12條13條因為我們覺得因為因應我的再修正東西要稍微微調一些東西那如果不處理的話就很不好意思可能還是我還是會採取保留態度就跟趙偉說明一下謝謝"},{"start":2511.592,"end":2533.966,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的提醒 基本上不會不處理因為我們是從第一案審到第13案那這中間有保留幾條 包含很多是你提出來的部分的保留那我們從10條審 審到27條完成之後等於是第一輪我們會再回到第二輪到時候就會處理到之前保留的相關的條文 這樣"},{"start":2535.587,"end":2564.417,"text":"這樣好不好你也一定處理得對你放心嘛 不可能沒處理啦好 謝謝所以你的因為我看你有幾個條文基本上都有修正都會再提修正動議嘛對不對有很多是這樣所以你的修正動議要就是說以再修正動議為主對 以再修正動議因為那天大家覺得有這樣我又回去我們又回去再演繹一次就是說提出我覺得比較可行的方法"},{"start":2565.505,"end":2587.903,"text":"好 沒關係好 等一下主席要審麻煩就今天用再修任動議的部分好沒關係好謝謝好那我們現在就請各位委員參照這個衛福部有再提供這樣的一個對照版本給各位做參考那我們現在來進行行政院第十四條的條文審查那對應的委員有這個"},{"start":2593.922,"end":2611.021,"text":"對不對 第10條嘛 對堆穩委有林業勤委員等21人邱振興委員 王一鳴委員那個等我就不再念了徐政委員 林淑敏還有林靜國委員那這個修正動議的部分有這個王振旭委員還有"},{"start":2614.075,"end":2629.982,"text":"劉建源委員的修正動議還有這個李淑儀委員的修正動議還有陳昭樹委員的修正動議還有王志勛委員的修正動議好那我們就一併來做來審查請衛務部就各位委員及其他請衛務部來先做說明謝謝"},{"start":2639.472,"end":2665.025,"text":"各位委員大家好行政機關報告第14條行政院行政院的院版條文內容我再唸一次第11條第一項申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所得結果不得含有可識別個人身份資料前項利用結果申請者不得為第11條第一項"},{"start":2667.366,"end":2680.791,"text":"及第二項經核准特定目的外利用計劃以外之利用申請者於特定目的外利用計劃執行完畢後應將其利用結果報告提供於"},{"start":2682.833,"end":2699.898,"text":"主管機關或保險人那林月琴的版本林月琴委員的版本有提到多增加了一項是特別要指資料的使用必須要經過被保險人事前同意"},{"start":2700.538,"end":2717.932,"text":"之外呢另外應該要特定目的外利用健保資料的使用應及時告知被保險人該資料去使用方式目的期間申請人及拒絕提供之方法那針對林月群委員的版本呢行政機關補充說明"},{"start":2719.353,"end":2744.883,"text":"委員所提到的要通知當事人這應該要通知資料的當事人這個部分行政機關的意見是我們會在後面的條文予以說明所以這裡我就是先保留希望委員可以讓我們採用14條的版本因為要讓民眾知道這件事情我們會有一個公開的訊息去說明並且讓民眾可以有選擇退出的機會"},{"start":2748.504,"end":2776.903,"text":"那接下來是林淑芬跟王正旭兩位委員提的版本他都有提到多增加了一項就是林淑芬委員的版本是希望能夠應該要公開對於申請利用應該公開核准案件數與清澈以及利用結果報告王正旭委員提到的是應定期公布使用健保資料之目的外利用情形及其他資訊"},{"start":2778.564,"end":2797.142,"text":"那這裡行政機關的意見是原來我們第14條的重點是在申請者使用健保資料統計分析完以後的利用結果我們希望他可以提供給主管機關或被保險人而且他不能"},{"start":2797.822,"end":2809.978,"text":"裡面的資料不可以含有可識別的個人身份資料至於幾位委員所提到的應該要公開的資訊行政機關現在說明就是我們"},{"start":2811.584,"end":2839.955,"text":"我們認為可以增加第四項可以增加第四項也就是行政院院版的文字呢再增第四項的文字可以參考王正旭委員所提的我再念一次我們增加第四項是主管機關及保險人應定其公開使用健保資料之目的外利用情形及相關資訊那我們建議寫這樣的文字是因為我們寫這樣的文字會"},{"start":2841.575,"end":2862.862,"text":"會比較寬那個淑芬委員所提的他就有提到說核准案件數與清澈及利用結果報告那我們寫的是公開使用健保資料目的外利用情形那這個部分我們會把淑芬委員裡面要求要公開這些我們都會公開那我們還會增加其他的相關資訊"},{"start":2864.242,"end":2892.185,"text":"以上說明現在我再補充現在的那個清澈其實在衛福部的網站裡面都看得到都看得到以上補充好這個衛福部表示意見之後就請各位委員來表示意見那螢幕上都會有衛福部提供了相關的一些文字的一些修正建立的修正那等下也會再發說明資料給各個各個別委員來做參考好那來好請林署委員"},{"start":2896.602,"end":2914.215,"text":"最後一項我不太同意因為相關情形跟這個相關資訊案情形這樣字眼太抽象那我們建議我們的版本保留那唯恐說有這個漏掉的所以我們可以同意在我們的版本後面請大家是不是支持你"},{"start":2916.877,"end":2924.402,"text":"利用了這些這個健保資料作為目的外使用而且這一些所謂的行政法人然後醫療機構學術機構大學等等這一些範疇其實很廣義的很寬廣的"},{"start":2933.667,"end":2961.339,"text":"大家都可以來那你到底是有沒有真正的去運用到真正的學術研究之上或必要研究之上或是腐爛的在要資料我覺得這種狀況就是透過透明公開然後讓民眾也有知情權然後你把這些東西都給人民也一起看所以幫政府一起大家一起共同來把關我覺得這樣的東西就很簡單就可以"},{"start":2964.19,"end":2987.744,"text":"這個機制要保留那重點就是說你到底核准了政府你到底核准了建樹有沒有腐爛你的清澈到底是什麼極力用結果報告而要建置一個可能專網頁上的一個入口或是一個一看就明瞭的專區然後讓我們可以進去裡面看那後面再加上說"},{"start":2989.425,"end":3007.756,"text":"如果在我們的版本是說應該公開核准件數清澈及利用結果報告及相關資訊我覺得及相關資訊這樣子才是對的否則什麼叫情形那你今天說你們在現在在其他地方已經有公開了未來你也可以不公開啊"},{"start":3008.556,"end":3030.781,"text":"唯有法律明定上去我們才會相信這是真的會被確保的人民的知情權和透明度是被確保的所以我是不是想說請大家支持在我們的版本的最後一項是比較清楚的那最後再加上衛福部的版本就是集相關資訊"},{"start":3034.366,"end":3052.069,"text":"不能夠直接就用衛福部的版本因為那個講紫色的概念不清不楚那隨便衛福部要公開什麼這樣的太抽象這樣子的話未來知情權會被打折他也可以不公開我們版本所要的那些東西"},{"start":3054.834,"end":3082.275,"text":"主席我這邊是不是補充一下那個因為剛剛我想這個林淑芬委員的這個建議的條文我們可以接受而且我們剛剛提的沒有去Quote這是第十一條第一項所以我是建議說是不是可以以林淑芬委員的版本略修就是新增最後那一跟行政院版本不同的是第四項主管機關或保險人"},{"start":3084.156,"end":3110.021,"text":"對於依第十一條第一項申請利用應公開核准案件數頓點清澈頓點利用結果報告及其他相關資訊是不是可以用這樣來修正那因為其他委員的版本沒有去Quote是要第十一條第一項會變成所有的目的外利用都要公開但是我們有涉及一些是司法檢調"},{"start":3111.001,"end":3135.862,"text":"第10條就是行政院版本第10條的目的外利用那個是其他公務機關依相關職權來申請目的外利用那那些有些是不適合公開所以這邊應該公開的是屬於第11條就是由這個政府機關也好或學校法人等等來申請利用的的結果那我們"},{"start":3138.824,"end":3158.118,"text":"會請像是可以把這個公開的部分呢是聚焦在第十一條第一項的申請利用那公開的事項讓他更明確化我們可以支持這個林淑芬委員的這個版本那只是後面再加上一個其他相關資訊讓他有點彈性以上的說明"},{"start":3161.517,"end":3184.664,"text":"差異應該有三項,第一個是林委員是議第十一條的第一項,對不對?但是第二個差異是你們原本是,你們是要定期啦,應定期啦林委員這邊是沒有定期喔那第三個就是其他的這個相關資訊啦所以各位來,請王振旭委員,來麥克風給王委員"},{"start":3187.409,"end":3211.697,"text":"謝謝主席 我想剛剛林委員講得很清楚那署長也做補充說明那代理市長那邊也針對於我提出來的臨時動議裡面在第四項有關於主管機關及保險人應定期公開或公佈使用健保資料之目的以外利用情形及其他相關資訊那我們也在立法說明裡面把這個需求為什麼會納進來的理由"},{"start":3213.379,"end":3231.013,"text":"那根據剛剛我們討論的結果如果要把在第四項裡面把第十一條第一項申請利用的部分納進來我覺得是比較完整那我還是建議應該要定期公開或定期公佈因為如果不定期的話我們執行起來就會有一些困難"},{"start":3231.633,"end":3244.096,"text":"到底什麼時候才算是適當的公佈時間或公開時間所以我會贊成是不是就重新把這些文字調理以後再請大家委員共同來致詞以上"},{"start":3246.192,"end":3260.777,"text":"好 謝謝王委員的建議來 請陳昭志委員好 謝謝昭委剛剛林淑英委員的這個案的動議修正動議我們都支持那我本來在今天的再修正的部分再修正動議的部分是加了一條說當時間屆滿的時候"},{"start":3263.638,"end":3286.627,"text":"我們希望他能夠這個主動通知就是要主動通知健保署讓健保署能夠掌握資料的去向跟處理狀況作為他資訊管理資料管理者的必要的追蹤跟盤點等於是在補強行政這個可機性跟問責的基礎就是一個明確的部分就是太通知再通要通知這個健保署簡單來說這一條我們只是確保說有借有還"},{"start":3289.228,"end":3309.724,"text":"然後還得通知這個健保署讓管理者有完整的資料使用的一個完整記錄避免這個行政濫用就是說我們就是除了尊重林淑文委的意見之外我們是在修正動議有加這一條就是使用者到期滿就停止的時候要主動通知你們還是你們可能隨時再監測嗎"},{"start":3313.709,"end":3322.687,"text":"時間到了要求屆滿期滿就是主動通知健保署讓你們可以直接去處理後續的部分"},{"start":3324.325,"end":3344.162,"text":"加這個字而已 不用因為跟委員報告他們只能吸出的是統計結果所以他並沒有這些資料本身沒有這些原始的資料本身他是帶出的是統計結果所以他沒有銷毀的問題有銷毀問題的是第10條第10條由其他的政府機關夠那麼依法依其職權來申請"},{"start":3353.149,"end":3377.209,"text":"目的外利用之後我們那個會有這個要銷毀的機制因為那個是有資料的傳輸這個本身是沒有資料的傳輸第11條的利用是沒有資料的傳輸它只有吸出統計的結果所以它沒有所謂的使用期滿的問題它已經去發表成paper了怎麼叫做使用期滿所以第11條的部分沒有這個問題"},{"start":3385.025,"end":3406.583,"text":"我這裡再補充 委員不好意思那個 張志偉委員您提的是您原來的文字是寫在您的第九條就是剛剛 剛剛署長所提的第十條署長已經有補充那另外就是因為政府機關構他所來要求要的 提供的資料呢因為他都是依據他的職權法律所以那一塊呢"},{"start":3407.003,"end":3436.083,"text":"基本上我們會在授權辦法裡面去明確定定因為他拿到資料之後到達他的使用期限他就應該要銷毀那個會在授權辦法裡面去明定現有的各個職權的法律都有相關的這樣的要求包括各執法裡面也有提到類似的你們有授權有要求你們也相信OK那就好啦沒有我們上一次的討論這樣有加上一條就是說如果那些機關構違反規定要如何處理和處分"},{"start":3437.643,"end":3465.408,"text":"那個是之後 不是在這一條啦對啦 我說要記得喔因為資料給你們了 你們那些機關依職群來要了別人要不到都給你們了 你去濫用或是沒有把關好 你這要處分機關上次有講到要處分才是重點 沒有處分喔形同道德勸說 無好患論好好 謝謝這文字就在"},{"start":3466.957,"end":3481.024,"text":"螢幕上 各位委員看一下看這樣可不可以 如果可以的話就是等同是行政院跟營委員 市區委員等在修正都一頭通過了 好不好各位看一下文字那個頓點 清澈的後面是頓點那個集的後面要有集其他相關資訊 集的後面 對"},{"start":3502.895,"end":3519.458,"text":"好這樣可以嗎好可以的話那我們就剛剛宣讀了就以行政院林淑慧及林淑慧委員還有王世修委員等這個所提修正動議所提修正再修正動議通過好謝謝那接下來第15條"},{"start":3522.11,"end":3546.674,"text":"第15條的部分有分歸報告就是有這個委員林月琴、邱振軍、王玉銘、徐宇貞、林淑芬、劉建國還有這個院板當然還有修正動議是盧憲玉委員還有陳昭志委員所提的修正動議那還是請衛務部來做說明先做說明"},{"start":3549.62,"end":3571.448,"text":"行政機關說明第15條行政院院版條文的內容是第11條第一項申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所的結果產生產業利益者應提撥一定比率回饋金納入全民健康保險基金前項產業利益之認定"},{"start":3572.568,"end":3572.928,"text":"還有就是許"},{"start":3599.394,"end":3601.676,"text":"那行政機關的意見是因為要產生這個產業利益呢事實上他所要耗費的時間"},{"start":3628.537,"end":3655.288,"text":"是蠻長的那我們也很難預估說他大概會有多久所以呢我們那個多少年會產生利益者這個部分呢行政機關的意見是我們可以在授權的辦法裡面去明定包括提撥多少比例的回饋金我們也會在第二項的授權辦法去訂定因為產業力的認定還有提撥回饋金的一定比例方式及其他相關的事項"},{"start":3656.368,"end":3675.917,"text":"好 所以那個親委員可以支持那個院版的條文 以上說明好 對不起我這邊委內做一個補充說明啦齁 那個如果委員不在了就不用特別針對那個提案委員齁 做再做說什麼樣說明好不好好 接下來請李委員 也請你來做這請 請"},{"start":3680.331,"end":3702.737,"text":"因為我的第八條本來就有在加碼不得那個就是不能作為盈利使用那所以我覺得在這邊大概可是有時候大概不是規定就好可能後端可能有利益的產生而且不是當下在申請的時候就會知道而是未來所以因為這個資料而研發出來商品之後可能會有些利益的產出"},{"start":3704.157,"end":3731.207,"text":"所以呢我覺得這筆回饋金有時候你只限定在申請時當然就是不對的要設定一段期限那如果你說拉很長坦白講如果等到20年坦白講他前面的付出的那個整個的也是成本很高所以那時候我們才會說用數年最後還是要有個期限否則的話好像會沒有任何的一個漫無目的的那我20年30年後你都還要可是我搞不好投出的"},{"start":3731.667,"end":3752.1,"text":"那個成本事實上是更高的那你後來因為後例要來算我前面的那你也不會把我成本算進去所以我覺得抓15年事實上是合理的所以才會在這邊特別去放這個15年所以自申請日期15年產生的利益應繳回一定的比例的回饋金以上那個"},{"start":3756.434,"end":3761.453,"text":"委員 行政機關這邊回應不好意思我待會再補充因為我剛漏了盧憲一盧憲一委員"},{"start":3765.121,"end":3791.583,"text":"對 那個岳勤委員所講的15年內行政機關這邊回應是否可以 因為每個研究它可以產生的產業利益時間我想應該是都不一樣的可能有的短 有的長所以那塊是不是容許我們在授權辦法裡面去訂一個Range就是剛剛委員說如果是15年或許我們可以再訂個10到15年沒有 我們回去會再研究一下有那個空間可以讓我們訂在那個授權辦法裡頭"},{"start":3792.944,"end":3809.299,"text":"因為相關的產生產業利益的研究應該有很多元會依照每個申請者來申請的研究範圍跟目的有所不同所以有的或許時間短有的或許會時間比較長讓我們有可以定一個Range不知道這樣委員可不可以這樣好 請提出委員"},{"start":3815.446,"end":3836.176,"text":"我的版本是沒有不過因為大家這樣討論我覺得是不是應該可以這樣朝這樣的方向我自己想的啦我不曉得是不是最適當的應該是說這個就是為什麼我們對11條的規範要嚴謹的原因而且要公開透明讓人民有知情權的原因就是說"},{"start":3837.594,"end":3865.661,"text":"我們雖然名者限定機關和學術機構可以做研究其他都不行可是事實上呢我們卻允許它產出利益商業利益那其實這裡面大家沒有談的就是我們在這裡面允許了寄轉而且也允許了產學合作那事實上呢要做這種研究"},{"start":3868.205,"end":3892.679,"text":"其實有時候也是都是透過醫院或學術單位然後去進行所謂的研究那就是產跟學就是必須經常在那裡相互的配合所以要限定幾年不如要不要講說如果這個以寄轉或產學合作的方式而獲取寄轉產學合作或"},{"start":3895.26,"end":3916.545,"text":"這樣去產出商業利益或其他方式而產出商業利益者獲得就要提撥了就是說也不限幾年啦你去大概計轉和產學合作之外因為為了避免還有其他模式嘛所以再加上或其他的其他的利用而產出這個商業產業利益者就要提撥"},{"start":3924.73,"end":3951.039,"text":"什麼的我的意思是說這樣子啦其實我的意思是說我們這樣規定好像是說只能做學術學術學術就跟產跟學都在一起啊那學術到最後也會計轉啊其實不如大家公開的給他講清楚計轉產學合作或其他目的外的利用而產出這個商業利益者就一定要繳回饋金好再請林月行委員"},{"start":3956.423,"end":3974.41,"text":"我認為明訂期間有兩面性第一個就是行政機關本來就有義務去追你沒有訂的話雙方都不清不楚而且我不認為在執法你在訂的時候如果剛剛講說你可以有一些期限那每個產業不同那你就預期它本來就有些利益"},{"start":3975.07,"end":3997.231,"text":"這個事實上是在不預期的狀況裡面本來就學術研究它本來就不能作為盈利只是後端如果因為這樣的研究後端如果去開發什麼藥的話得到一些利益的時候我們這時候應該要去要求繳回一定的比例第二個是使用者也可預期的負責任的期限是什麼時候我覺得這樣子會比較好以上"},{"start":4010.045,"end":4035.552,"text":"來請王振興委員關於第15條我個人在之前醫院工作或者是在大學任教的時候其實我們很多利用健保資料庫所衍生的結果除了能夠得到這個學術上的價值同時是有機會是有機會透過這些方式來變成一個公共利益的一部分"},{"start":4036.532,"end":4053.73,"text":"這個公共利益當然範圍非常的大包括產業利益其實最後也是公共利益的一部分所以我是建議說如果希望能夠讓這樣的公共利益可以得到最大化的話我會建議一開始就不要定的太"},{"start":4055.712,"end":4073.674,"text":"在一定的範圍裡面因為我們也了解所有的學術產出的內容有時候我們會回到10年20年前說曾經有哪一篇的論文引用了什麼樣的資料那最後得到出相關的結果所以如果我們把它定了太一定的Range就是一定的時間"},{"start":4074.835,"end":4098.753,"text":"的話可能會影響到他未來利用所產生的最終的公共利益所以如果維持現在的文字的話我覺得可以是相對相對有彈性不過在訂這個事項的辦法的時候可能在裡面就要做比較完整的陳述這樣希望有比較好的規範因為"},{"start":4100.914,"end":4119.878,"text":"因為我們也了解嘛所有的這些資料的產出最終我們希望的是公共利益為導向那商業利益是其中的一部分那商業利益的產出裡面其實是產業利益的一部分這樣聽起來有點繞口啦不過我想概念上是這個樣子以上好 謝謝那請魏恩好 謝謝"},{"start":4127.222,"end":4142.392,"text":"因為上次我第15條裡面有增加說如果是因為研究原住民族健康資料所產生的產業利益應該納入原住民族綜合發展基金上次感謝我們衛福部有派人到辦公室跟人民會的長官一起來"},{"start":4143.132,"end":4161.531,"text":"那可是我有要求說希望這次的那個我們這個會議能夠邀請我們園民會可是我看名單裡面還是沒有園民會的那上次他們有一些建議看上次與會的官員能不能說上次我們的結論可以嗎跟給大家知道今天有出席嗎來請回應"},{"start":4168.568,"end":4184.165,"text":"您剛剛提的那個是在第5條原住民道如果是15條的部分我那天有說到是說因為我們現在所有申請者來利用我們的資料跑出來的使用結果那使用結果如果"},{"start":4184.665,"end":4199.494,"text":"或有未來有機會有技術移轉或取得專利的話產生產業利益希望他能夠挹注到我的健保基金那因為挹注到我的健保基金是全民共享也就是說即使我不管是用哪"},{"start":4200.074,"end":4216.193,"text":"用哪些人只要用到我全國2300萬人民的資料統計出來的資料放到我的健保基金是供全民所去共享的所以我們建議是說就不用特別再納入原住民的綜合發展基金"},{"start":4216.733,"end":4237.266,"text":"那另外呢委員裡面版本有提到說在第二項增加了一個有關援助民族健保製造所生產利益的認定與回饋事宜由中央就是由原民會會同本條例來訂定之然後因為那天跟委員溝通的時候原民會的代表也有在場"},{"start":4238.386,"end":4257.213,"text":"這個部分我們在訂定的時候我們會找園民會一起來一起來研議內容但是基本上我們這裡所訂的辦法裡面的細節原則上因為我們是針對所有的資料健保資料去做分析的所以不會特別"},{"start":4258.634,"end":4284.853,"text":"特別去續名這個原住民的部分那另外再跟委員補充那天有跟您提到是我們目前查衛福部資科中心裡面呢原民會呢基本就是都有委託單委託機構來跑原住民的統計年報所以呢我們現在公佈在網站上的清澈都可以明顯看出來那個是統計年報之用至於是針對那個原住民的研究呢"},{"start":4285.633,"end":4299.137,"text":"相對是比較少的但是如果有我們會到那個最後的審查機制那邊去做審查所以基本上我們的建議是希望那個委員還是同意讓我們可以採用院版 以上說明好 那個林院情委員剛剛王委員的開示他坐你旁邊不曉得能不能問通知"},{"start":4315.151,"end":4317.036,"text":"如果你認同之,我們就好處理之"},{"start":4323.418,"end":4350.755,"text":"他們兩個討論一下我再講一下就是說事實上我們行政院版的這個版本事實上就如同王正旭醫師講的你沒有限縮在一定程度事實上你未來這篇論文這篇paper如果被運用到這個這個產業界去使用那到底要限定在什麼時候30年後被用到了被用到了也要提撥40年後也要50年後也要是這樣的概念嗎"},{"start":4351.716,"end":4374.23,"text":"那我的意思是說他這個是兩面刃啦因為你如果沒有那只要quote一次就算用到了嗎所以我們才講說要不要先說在這個G轉的產權合作的或其他或其他什麼樣的利用而產出這個產業利益者"},{"start":4377.873,"end":4395.425,"text":"這個這樣有限縮當然限縮不見得是好因為我自己也不確定這樣限縮到底是不是好那所謂的利用是要怎麼樣的利用才叫做利用我學術上引用到了就全部都叫了這樣子好像也照你們行政院版本好像是這樣子喔"},{"start":4395.985,"end":4420.906,"text":"那是無止無盡的喔那要怎麼提撥所以有些人說不見得是壞事就先說在我剛剛講的概念或是加上林月琴委員的概念不見得是壞事啦但我覺得我自己也沒有把握說這樣子是不是適當的但沒有的話反而好像無止無盡喔你自己講到最後自己也沒有把握"},{"start":4422.148,"end":4447.001,"text":"嗯你還講好好沒關係沒關係不行不行因為你這樣講不公平因為在這裡大家一起討論嘛大家把所有的可能都拿出來拋出來嘛那對那怎麼樣是對公共利益是最好的因為事實上醫藥界都一樣產業利益商業利益他也可以說這個全部都是公共利益啦藥學界我明明有請他去試醫他也說我這是為了大家公共利益我以後是要叫人的"},{"start":4450.243,"end":4464.768,"text":"啊到底這是產業利益還是公共利益所以醫藥界所謂的產業利益都連結到公共利益但是很不容易釐清啦很不容易對我是回應你剛剛講的最後那一句話啦我的意思是說我那一句話是要我不見得正確但要大家一起討論啦好啦好啦當然一起討論現在也是一起討論啦來請林彥行委員"},{"start":4473.971,"end":4503.13,"text":"好 我剛如果是以王委員的話那就是跟我行政部門的是一樣我還是堅持用我這個就否則除非有講出更因為你定案辦法常常我自己在過去在跟政府去在處理事情的時候很常定案辦法事實上是沒有會去很落實去做所以我覺得定在這邊母法裡面還是會有好處的所以我還是期待事實上是定在母法裡面以上來那林委員"},{"start":4504.127,"end":4518.717,"text":"要堅持要不要跟主席還有跟委員報告確實剛剛林委員還有兩位林委員提的我們也是覺得在執行面上讓它法律明確就是以15年"},{"start":4520.253,"end":4535.653,"text":"一般來講如果他是像剛剛記轉之後產生新藥很多的研究最後產生新藥的話大概10到15年所以以15年大概也算是一個合理的期程但是呢"},{"start":4536.474,"end":4560.829,"text":"要不要是只有在記轉來寫在裡面我是建議說把它放在我們第二項的授權法規我們有一個前項產業利益之認定從產業利益之認定還有提供活課金之一定的比例或方式這些都由授權法規來訂定因為它的樣態可能比較多"},{"start":4561.79,"end":4583.568,"text":"我們怕在這裡把他限縮在只有計轉的話又掛一漏萬但是有一個連線我覺得是應該對這個利用者來講他也比較有一個可預期性不然他對我們行政單位執行也避免我們的責任無限延長"},{"start":4584.609,"end":4613.309,"text":"變成我們要追幾十年這樣所以用一個這個年限我覺得行政單位應該是可以執行這樣所以你的建議是就是採用那個林業勤委員的版本寫上年限這樣自申請日起15年內產生之產生之利益者"},{"start":4617.529,"end":4627.756,"text":"產生之產業利益者產生之產生之產業申請日期15年內產生產生產業利益者這也是領委的版本"},{"start":4652.039,"end":4674.093,"text":"所以你們意見可接受林委員所提的版本是不是應該這樣說對不對好來請陳昭志委員基本上剛剛討論的精神我都接受但是我想請教健保署這裡產業利益的認定還有提不為定比率回饋金的這個意見請問這個是這個部分是哪個是誰來做"},{"start":4676.88,"end":4677.44,"text":"本法的主管機關定"},{"start":4702.979,"end":4717.532,"text":"還是你們啊還是你們在聘啊你們在找人啊就是還是你們在做嘛對不對就是健保署在執行不是健保署主管機關這部法的主管機關以行政院版本是衛生福利部好"},{"start":4721.721,"end":4745.962,"text":"就基本上就這樣規範是很OK啦只是說那到時候認定就很多方法囉很多標準很多見解啊怎麼認定啊就像剛剛林委員說啊quote一次用不用那造成的貢獻那個不得了那個最後的認定事情是一個大工程欸啊你要回饋多少比例一句話嗎主審委員一句話你就還多少錢嗎啊我如果放鬆一點你就不還錢嗎或者說這個這個"},{"start":4748.324,"end":4772.081,"text":"這件事還蠻大的還蠻大的就是說你們確定你們在寫這條法條的時候一定要有相當的一個想法吧因為跟委員報告照說這個還是會循這個法治程序他也是要辦理預告辦理公告他是一個辦法他要定辦法不是一個委員會委員審查而已他要定一個辦法"},{"start":4774.673,"end":4798.572,"text":"要明確啦一個認定老實說很廣泛很空泛我只是了解一下好謝謝那我們第15條就依照林業勤委員的版本來通過好謝謝那接下來我們來處理第16條那16條有行政院版委員林業勤、邱振軍、王育民、徐宇珍、林淑芬、劉建國還有這個修正動議"},{"start":4800.783,"end":4807.216,"text":"陳昭志委員所提的修正動議兩個還有陳昭志委員所提的修正再修正動議我們一併來討論那請衛務部先來做說明"},{"start":4815.549,"end":4839.039,"text":"第十六條行政院院版的文字是主管機關及保險人依個人資料保護法第十七條公開其持有健保資料之有關事項時應一定公開下列事項一當事人得就其健保資料之全部或一部請求停止他人為特定目的外之利用二"},{"start":4839.939,"end":4862.417,"text":"簽款請求之方式受理機關及其他相關事項這裡所有委員相關的版本大致上都同意願版的那行政機關這裡再補充待會在17條的部分署分委員有提到另外一些文字那因為行政機關經過經過"},{"start":4867.18,"end":4889.945,"text":"思考之後覺得擺在16條會比較好所以是不是我待會在17條的地方講還是我現在先一併講好我現在一併講就是淑芬委員她在第17條的部分有提到說本條例施行起一個月一個月內"},{"start":4892.54,"end":4898.005,"text":"本條例施行起三十日內主管機關或保險人應停止受理依第十一條第一項申請特定目的外利用健保資料"},{"start":4919.243,"end":4939.017,"text":"然後呢再加一項當事人位於前項期間內請求停止利用視為同意其健保資料為特定目的外利用期間見滿後當事人仍得請求停止其健保資料之特定目的外利用"},{"start":4940.103,"end":4965.971,"text":"那行政機關希望擺在這裡的原因我補充說明因為我們有關於民眾的退出權是從16條開始16 17 18 19這四條都在講退出權那16條一開始就提到說當事人是可以就健保資料的全部或一部請求停止利用那麼因為要讓因為這是我們首次做的讓民眾可以知道有退出權這件事情"},{"start":4966.451,"end":4980.283,"text":"所以我們在這個條例施行期三十日內主管機關跟保險人我們會停止那個我們第十一條第一項所提的是指申請者來跟"},{"start":4981.924,"end":4996.142,"text":"主管機關跟保險人來申請學術研究的這些因為他會利用到我的健保資料那麼我在本條例施行起30日內我就停止受理這個學術研究來申請利用健保資料"},{"start":4996.903,"end":5019.571,"text":"那麼當事人我們就呃公開了一個月三十日的時間那我們會呃向民眾宣告公布那當事人好民眾如果沒有在這三十日內來請求停止利用我們就視同他同意健保資料為特定目的外利用那麼期間三十日後呢當事人呢"},{"start":5020.991,"end":5044.536,"text":"雖然他可能之前沒有來跟我說說他要不讓他的資料被他人使用但是我在這30日以後呢當事人仍然可以繼續請求停止其健保資料的特定目的外利用接著我17條就會去續明當事人是如何來跟我們申請的一些相關的程序以上說明所以你現在是"},{"start":5050.219,"end":5074.968,"text":"第16條你們也建議因為連動17條嘛所以你要依林委員的幫忙去做相關的修正嘛對不對對 是 調整 調整 調次好 那來 請陳教授委員我對林委員印象很嚴格不過就是現在我覺得還要做的一點而且我個人 我們黨團比較堅持的一點是因為這是大法官的這個事情"},{"start":5075.848,"end":5100.819,"text":"才覺得他是說要經過同意所以其實就是說我們希望能夠明白是要先經過大家同意所以我在個人修正動議案請大家參考原來的第十七條既然要加入這部分我個人在修正動議的條文是寫保險人與當事人締結全民健保契約條款應取得當事人同意這個跟退出不太一樣"},{"start":5101.819,"end":5127.367,"text":"這個是要取得他的同意使得由主管機關或保險人進行假名化資料庫的儲存管理對外傳輸會提供本法的依本法申請特定目的外使用那當事人得隨時填具申請書請求保險人停止其資料部的全部或一部分假名化資料的等等等等的目的目的外使用所以我們在是希望他是要要求同意不是說"},{"start":5128.627,"end":5141.123,"text":"你如果沒有表達同意就等於你同意這個精神不太一樣所以我我們會比較堅持這一點就是要求要徵求同意這也是原來那個憲判的精神啊"},{"start":5144.676,"end":5170.565,"text":"要求同意跟委員補充 憲判的精神他是認同憲法法庭肯認我們那個學術機關的核限性但是他沒有要求要獲得民眾的同意權 憲判沒有寫到這個那唯一有缺失的地方是說因為我們現行的相關的法律沒有可以讓民眾可以來申請特定目的外例外的退出權"},{"start":5171.485,"end":5194.631,"text":"所以呢我們目前對於民眾這塊有事前同意權跟事後控制權憲判的主文沒有提到民眾要有事前同意權那我們在後面的條文17條就會去續名讓民眾可以來申請退出那我剛剛續名的文字裡面也是提說因為我們這是首次讓民眾可以退出健保資料那我們覺得應該要有一次"},{"start":5195.351,"end":5205.66,"text":"有一定的期間我們現在是定三十日內我們公告周知所有的民眾告訴他們說我們現在呢你們如果覺得你們個人的資料呢不願意提出來"},{"start":5206.877,"end":5223.48,"text":"供第三方去做學術研究的話那在這30日內你們可以來跟我申請那如果你沒有來申請那麼我就視同你同意這個就是類似我就是等於是近在主管機關不好意思這一點我比較堅持就是說一個是被動一個主動一個當作他不知道就過去了就是說我這邊主張是要求個人明確的同意下進行而且"},{"start":5232.182,"end":5260.89,"text":"他是應該有隨時可以持續的控制權就是說他是有一個很方便的管道當然這個比較細節部分他隨時可以撤回修改所以我我不希望他只是談那個紙上談兵啊就是說他這個所以我們是要求要這個要當事人取得當事人同意使得進行後面這一串的這個這個工作作業那如果院板沒有辦法接受的話主席不好意思我保留這一條"},{"start":5263.984,"end":5269.028,"text":"市長要再回應還是林委員要講要不要等林委員講完再一併回應好不好好謝謝"},{"start":5293.764,"end":5308.675,"text":"目的外的利用健保資料使用時候應該就資料只使用方式目的期間申請人跟拒絕提供的方法等這個都要告知所以我的不是說你們前面所有人要所有人大家都同"},{"start":5309.856,"end":5331.54,"text":"所有的人要原則上同意這沒問題可是我認為尤其是像這個應該還要去考慮到你每次使用的時候要被通知我們在做學術研究通常我們都跟我們的受訪當事人講隨時你如果要你都還有一個退出權可是前面都還要告知的非常的清楚"},{"start":5332.08,"end":5350.209,"text":"那為什麼在使用這個的時候反而是不用我們都認為他都同意可是如果是罕病的話那這個一交叉比對都很容易知道是誰啊那而且他不同意被使用的話就可以退出所以我當初的14條我的第二項目的是在這邊不會是你一次同意之後"},{"start":5351.169,"end":5362.349,"text":"你們一直在做研究有一天如果我自己突然想到我可以去退出可是有些人並不了解你這樣的使用會不會涉及到他尤其我剛剛提到罕病事實上是會被教他比對到"},{"start":5365.858,"end":5390.029,"text":"所以14條才會最後那些款會增加應定期啦 公開啦來 另外如果可以的話 因為這整個概念就是說事前同意的叫同意權那事後的叫做退出權如果理想上可以的話我們都希望是事前要取得我們同意所以我們"},{"start":5391.829,"end":5415.78,"text":"理想上這樣子可是現實上我知道行政成本行政部門的人他們行政的成本對他們來講他們會抗拒那所以我才退而求其次說那至少整部法律在施行以前給我們一個冷凍期讓想要的人可以有真正的事前這個同意權全部都退出"},{"start":5416.44,"end":5428.197,"text":"但是一定大多數人都沒有辦法事前同意大多數人也不太因為大多數人如果全部都退出了也不值得研究了啦老實說啦會有這個問題那所以我覺得"},{"start":5433.244,"end":5449.365,"text":"理想上我也是支持陳昭之委員的概念但是因為現實就是這麼現實所以才會想到一個事前的同意的冷凍期和事後的退出權因為你叫大家都說要取得同意"},{"start":5453.073,"end":5465.545,"text":"這個像第10條的那個法定職權的就不用取得同意了法律說我就要去調你的資料司法審判我就直接調來取你的同意這是不可能的但我們對第11條講的醫院的學術的這個"},{"start":5470.109,"end":5493.682,"text":"還有什麼產業階的產學利用的這種要來理論上如果可以事前同意當然是更好但是他要事前同意作業的人還是官方啦就每一次每一案那事前同意要多久那要事前同意沒有取得的啊有取得的然後就到時候作業上也是官方的人要去"},{"start":5494.542,"end":5514.664,"text":"要去篩選要去跑所以這個就是行政成本的問題對他們來講我就可以聽聽行政部門他們到底行政成本會高到多高如果沒有的話我們當然也是最好每一件每一案一年300多案然後每一件每一案我們就每一件都跑"},{"start":5515.325,"end":5544.318,"text":"那要同意權要拉多長那大家回傳時間會多長那他們整理要多少時間這個行政成本時間成本那會對整體的申請研究的人會有什麼影響可以聽聽看啦食物界可以聽聽看啦如果真的行政成本不高我也是支持每一次每一件都是事前同意當然是事前同意是當然是完整度比較高那行政部門也可以舉例的看看外國是怎麼弄的這樣子"},{"start":5547.594,"end":5560.668,"text":"還沒有回應耶你要不要先等回應好 請先生就先回應三位委員剛才提手提的問題好不好好 跟委員報告我們這個回珠這個憲法法庭的"},{"start":5562.66,"end":5589.719,"text":"這個主文第一點他就有特別提到我們為了這些學術研究或公共利益有它的必要然後資料經過提供者處理後或經收集者依其揭露方式而無從辨識特定之當事人這個跟法律的明確性原則比例原則尚屬無誤不抵觸憲法第22條保障人民隱私"},{"start":5590.559,"end":5605.549,"text":"權之一職所以以我們目前的使用方式那麼憲法法庭呢認為他是合法合憲那麼但是呢他在他的主文裡面的這個第四條則是提到那麼雖然我們就"},{"start":5606.269,"end":5632.687,"text":"这些个人资料来使用在原始收集目的外利用由相关的法治来看的话则是欠缺当事人得请求停止利用之相关规定所以这个部分是有违反这个宪法第22条保障人民隐私权之意旨所以才有这个需要有这个退出权的行使所以在目前我们目前的利用方式"},{"start":5636.49,"end":5651.768,"text":"合法合憲只不過欠缺的當事人得請求停止利用這規定所以我們這個條文的主要的精神都是聚焦在"},{"start":5652.409,"end":5667.767,"text":"退出权的行使而不是再重新从每一个人再去取得告知同意因为我们在提供利用的时候呢已经把它做了一些处理那么包含让他无从辨识特定之当事人这是第一个说明"},{"start":5668.368,"end":5694.766,"text":"第二個說明剛剛林委員林慧琴委員也擔心會不會去串接之後就可以得知當事人因為我們現在所提供的資料都是經過主管機關或保險人處理不會把資料釋出大家可能有時候還停留在多年前有那個資料可以釋出的現在都是在指定地點特定時間"},{"start":5696.207,"end":5715.266,"text":"去跑資料這個資料都已經去掉可辨識性假名化了所以他不會再有去串接、比對、勾擊不可能有這個程序所以即使是罕病我想也可以不用擔心可以看出他是當事人"},{"start":5716.207,"end":5742.165,"text":"那么另外呢刚刚又有提到说是不是除了我们有个冷冻期那以后冷冻期的意思就是目前已经在接受健保服务的我们都已经有这些资料所以让他们有一个30天的时间来思考然后提出这个要不要退出的这个退出使用的这个权利的行使那这个我想是OK"},{"start":5743.325,"end":5760.551,"text":"那但是如果未來每一個從叫做以這個陳昭志委員的版本叫做在締結全民健康保險契約的條款要取得當事人的同意那意思就是在申請健保卡的時候就要去"},{"start":5761.84,"end":5779.097,"text":"在告知同意要行使這個資料的提供權目的外使用目的外使用那這樣等於是發現保卡的意思就是都是新生兒啦或者是移工啦"},{"start":5780.527,"end":5803.116,"text":"我們現在每年最多會新產生健保卡發出去的大概五六十萬啦一年我們大概就是五六十萬那多數呢其實是這個移工啦因為他進來之後就會有這個健保他就因為工作他就可以依法取得健保的保障啊這個都是一段時間他又走了"},{"start":5804.38,"end":5822.667,"text":"他可能兩年之後他又回去了所以進進出出說我們每年要做製造好多的新的健保卡主要是這個另外有一群就是新生兒我們要發健保卡那個現在就差不多十萬十幾萬越來越少這樣所以這個行政成本確實是很高"},{"start":5824.172,"end":5848.551,"text":"那么而且它的效益刚刚提到的那个移工的部分其实它就是两年它的资料其实可用性相对价值低新生儿的部分就通通都是要代理人的所以这个会造成我们的行政成本真的是很困难那所以我们是比较支持像林淑芬委员的版本这样给一个时间让现行已经"},{"start":5849.472,"end":5873.032,"text":"跟有健保卡的國人那麼他有一個一個月的思考去做這個退出權的行使那之後那因為你都知道這個法律後面的這個法律本法已經實施之後呢那你都可以知道有這個退出權的行使你就隨時可以來退出所以這是假設同意事後退出這個在其他國家在有一些這個這個"},{"start":5874.993,"end":5893.782,"text":"器官捐贈也有這種先例就是假設同意那麼退出例外這樣子我覺得是在不論是在大法官釋憲或者是在我們的行政單位的執行成本跟可行性上那麼是比較容易執行以上說明"},{"start":5895.1,"end":5904.95,"text":"主席不好意思我想再多談就這一條讓我們再思考我們要求保留要求保留因為他非常的關鍵謝謝好陳委員建議保留各位有沒有其他意見請王振旭委員"},{"start":5916.314,"end":5937.237,"text":"就是根據目前在討論第16條我想剛剛在陸委員很擔心的事情就是如果沒有辦法能夠取得同意權每一次都取得同意權的話未來執行上會不會造成這些民眾的權益的受損"},{"start":5938.639,"end":5952.474,"text":"我是比較贊同說依照實務上我們如果真的要每次都取得同意權的話事實上那個行政成本真的非常的高那剛實務長也跟我們報告有關於到底誰"},{"start":5953.695,"end":5976.272,"text":"在除了第一時間取得同意權的授權的同時什麼時候還要再追加他的同意權事實上真的是有他的困難度所以如果依照現在包括林樹委員所提供的我們針對同意權在一定的時間裡面讓他去確認那退出權的部分呢也可以有額外的追加隨時可以再追加的話"},{"start":5977.953,"end":6005.824,"text":"相對來講已經是能夠保護到我們這些同意權人在執行過程當中所擔心為人所擔心的問題所以我會同意說如果能夠再從這個紅字上所追加的第三第四項的話應該是第三第四項就能夠符合當初在這個大法官所期待的這些內容的具體要求以上"},{"start":6009.72,"end":6022.093,"text":"你要回應的時候順便我也跟陳昭秀委員提醒一下你講那個得當是很同意那個應該是你在第17條裡面現在是要處理第16條所以等下17條會處理到你要講的範圍應該是這樣"},{"start":6031.937,"end":6052.126,"text":"我再補充一點剛剛提到行政成本高應該是說我如果每一個學術案件我都要通知當事人獲得他的同意我一年有300多件我們2300萬的人民他就隨時會收到說你要不要同意你的資料所以對於民眾來講也是一個也是一個干擾"},{"start":6053.286,"end":6064.421,"text":"除了我們行政成本高之外對於民眾來說他幾乎就常常就會收到說有人要做研究你的資料要不要同意讓這個學術研究去做研究以上說明"},{"start":6066.622,"end":6084.918,"text":"我想這個條文我再補充一下陳委員所擔心的這個OECD在今年的6月那麼有出版了一個最新的報告是OECD Digital Economy Paper他這裡特別是提到"},{"start":6086.439,"end":6106.454,"text":"這個二次利用資料的二次利用來實現公共利益裡面特別提到鑑於個人健康資料利用的整體公共利益多個國家已採用選擇退出OPTOUT就是OPTOUT模式在此模式下是預設為"},{"start":6107.955,"end":6131.792,"text":"同意利用資料除非個人明確選擇退出所以就是我們現在這一部法律所採取的原則因為他到每一個都要事前同意呢其實他的行政成本還有他的可行性是相對低的所以已經是多個國家也都採取op out就是我們現在的方式假設預設同意那麼"},{"start":6132.772,"end":6144.607,"text":"個人可以選擇退出所以這個通常都是這樣的模式會高於op-in的可行性所以這個paper我們都可以提供給委員會參考這個是OECD已經正式發布的規定規範"},{"start":6150.836,"end":6156.363,"text":"那OECD他發表這個關於健康這個資料的建議當中他也指出喔他並沒有說一定要你所謂的那個"},{"start":6165.796,"end":6192.657,"text":"除非要在未經個人明確同意下進行健康資料再利用必須具備強而有力的透明化程序獨立審查機制那為什麼我一直強化獨立審查機制其他我們的條文我們會討論到這件事以及可供當事人查詢及控管的資訊公開制度所以你剛剛談的那個行政成本當然這個尊重你們行政成本的一個處理方式但事實上就是你要可以設計完善的一個申請流程跟受理平台有很多"},{"start":6193.237,"end":6221.169,"text":"很多地方啊譬如說欠保快遺通啦網頁登錄啦這個等等等等然後這個如果他沒有辦法使用網路線你也有替代圖定啊電話的靈魂等等就是其實他的精神並沒有你說有些國家這樣做但是也有些他並沒有要碩士這樣的方向去做所以我覺得這一次我覺得還大家還是請大家再想想看你用被動的我先被納進去了然後我知道了我要退出了還是說你"},{"start":6222.711,"end":6244.168,"text":"讓他同意然後你們設計一個非常完善的方便力的一個申請跟受理的一個平台跟流程事實上還是可以回到我們今天為什麼要立專法的精神好我們現在處理有困難就保留好"},{"start":6250.914,"end":6276.622,"text":"那我們先保留啦接下來處理第17條可能這樣就會比較更清晰一點那第17條有委員林月琴邱振鈞、王育民、徐宇甄林史文、劉建國等委員所提的這個條文還有行政院的版本那修正動議的部分有這個王育民委員還有劉建國委員"},{"start":6281.136,"end":6309.631,"text":"還有林署委員陳昭志委員還有陳昭志委員的再修正動議好請行政機關表示意見第17條第17條呢院版提到的有四項那重點是針對當事人他可以來填申請書請求停止他的健保資料利用另外如果針對當事人未滿7歲或者是滿7歲到18歲應該有當事人本人或輔助人同意的"},{"start":6311.271,"end":6338.536,"text":"這個說明那最後呢第三項有提到是保險人如果受理第一項申請之後呢我們會保險人會註記申請日三十日內註記不得提供目的外的利用那最後一項就是我關於這個程序裡面停止資料的種類範圍註記還有通知內容等等我們會訂定授權辦法定之淑芬委員裡面所提到的"},{"start":6339.016,"end":6341.318,"text":"好 委員沒有其他的意見要表示沒有"},{"start":6368.273,"end":6370.414,"text":"我想在因為我們現在是正式會議才會有記錄所以我想再表達一下"},{"start":6396.002,"end":6413.875,"text":"就是說 抱歉我是看我自己的版本我自己版本的最後一項就是第一項停止特定目的外利用健保資料的總類範圍而註記及通知的內容及其他事項由主管機關定之跟行政鏈擺一樣嗎 抱歉我剛才的一樣的嘛"},{"start":6417.598,"end":6445.034,"text":"那因為這個種類像CT檢驗就像這種範圍是不是涉及到特殊疾病罕見疾病等等這樣子那這種東西這個健保資料是純粹的文字報告的資料影片的資料基因的資料那影像的資料這種是全部都在範圍裡面嗎"},{"start":6449.181,"end":6470.852,"text":"根本不知道我們目前這些資料我們的範圍是都有到時候都可以來選擇要退出的是部分還是全部那至於說我們在提供利用的時候即使是我們過去也有用這個影像去做AI來協助診斷它就是要影像去做試煉"},{"start":6472.473,"end":6494.78,"text":"但是都會把那個可辨識性資料因為CT片上面都有一些名字還有身分證那個都會掩蓋完之後才提供那個做AI的這個Machine Learning所以那個部分我們都一樣會採用這個假名化的方式去處理因為就是影像資料啦這種都是可以去除的嗎對 可以"},{"start":6501.092,"end":6519.087,"text":"全部都是PDF檔嗎不會因為現在如果只用PDF檔它的可利用性很低PDF檔其實就好像是一張照片一樣我知道它後面的運用會受限影像資料就是PDF檔嗎不是不是影像資料不是PDF檔師傅我仔細聊那個修正多你沒有回應一下"},{"start":6533.831,"end":6534.192,"text":"我們的方式是"},{"start":6544.468,"end":6567.336,"text":"對 我們的方式是由那個授權法規來訂啦因為有各式各樣不同的方式都可以就是未來也可能直接你就用那個 你的那個我們有那個My Health Bank健保的APP就可以來申請那個都可能 所以我們是用授權法規好 授權法規"},{"start":6573.488,"end":6583.339,"text":"來 各位同仁有沒有其他意見要保留先請保留 謝謝"},{"start":6586.007,"end":6605.178,"text":"好 那十七條那就照陳委員建議先保留來 繼續我們處理第十八條那有院版 行政院版本 林業勤 邱振軍 王玉敏 徐宇貞 林淑溫 劉建國等委員所提的版本還有這個陳徹司委員的暫修正動議我們一併來討論請那個行政院來做說明"},{"start":6611.352,"end":6636.081,"text":"18條的部分是指說當事人如果經註記停止目的外利用之後呢保險人跟主管機關及保險都不可以在對外提供特定目的外的利用但是這裡還有加一個就是停止目的外利用的效力不溯及既往也就是我們在這個條例通過之後"},{"start":6639.562,"end":6666.654,"text":"意思就是說只規範通過之後 如果之前的已經學術研究已經申請核准的部分呢 就不說既往那各委員的版本呢 都同意願版以上說明好 這個應該沒有問題啦 招職委員是調適的問題而已啦對啊對啊 所以是不是叫行政院的版本來通過 好不好可以啦齁 好 謝謝 然後我們接下來來處理第19條"},{"start":6670.642,"end":6690.873,"text":"19條的部分是在指那個推出的例外情形那我們例外的情形呢就是有我們列的三款一款是依其他法律主管機關或保險有提供之義務第二個是為維護國家安全第三個是為免除人民之生命身體或財產上的急迫危險"},{"start":6692.054,"end":6716.754,"text":"那麼委員的部分是淑芬委員這邊有提到我們院版寫的是依其他法律那淑芬委員希望把它強化改為依第十條第一項規定主管機關或保險人有提供之義務那昭芝委員所提的部分呢因為她還特別加了兩個條件的說明"},{"start":6720.277,"end":6740.926,"text":"行政機關這邊的意見是如果要更明確化的話呢我們同意採署非委員的版本就是把其他法律改為第十條第一項及第我們都增加了一個第三項的規定希望這樣更明確以上說明好請陳昭志委員"},{"start":6742.355,"end":6766.782,"text":"有這個院版第19條的部分這個我們做了我做了一些加修正動議就麻煩大家參考一下當當事人請求特定目的外利用期及健保資料並經註記後符合下列條件者這個經審查會同意等下我們主席說會再回去討論經審查會同意後主管機關或保險人實則對外"},{"start":6768.502,"end":6797.624,"text":"提供特定目的外使用第一齁這個政府機構一第七條第一項各款規定為執行這個沒問題提升醫療品質公共衛生或社會福利之分析利用及科學研究第二個是政府機關無法及時有效透過其他方式取得所需資料導致分析或研究結果將產生偏誤因為我們認為原來的這個院版的字眼維護國家安全這免除什麼生命身體我覺得太空泛了"},{"start":6798.244,"end":6822.595,"text":"這個都是幾乎憲法層次的說明我們寫的是比較具體的方式為了執行提升醫療品質公共衛生或社會福利之分析利用及科學研究以及無法及時透過有效有效透過其他方式所取得的資料導致分析或研究結果將產生偏誤我們把它具體化明確化最重要的就是這個精神請參考 謝謝"},{"start":6835.318,"end":6856.27,"text":"有關於委員說明的部分因為我們這個在原來院版的第八條裡面我們就寫得很清楚就是申請特地外目的特地目的外的利用就是用來提升醫療品質公共衛生等社會福利促進學術研究發展的公共利益那因為委員的版本裡面有特別在把"},{"start":6857.31,"end":6877.379,"text":"這個是待會再回去的時候再說明就是委員的版本有再去序明說什麼叫做重大的公共利益掳裂了五款但是這裡我們是認為說是不是就可以不用再重述因為我本來的目的就是為了公共利益去做研究"},{"start":6877.919,"end":6901.636,"text":"那至於第二點就是政府機關無法及時有效透過其他方式取得所需資料導致分析或研究結果產生偏差這個部分呢這個部分是不是無法及時有效這個部分是不是跟我這邊這邊的那個意思好像"},{"start":6904.051,"end":6930.627,"text":"我比較無法 你們原來的條款其他法律機關有提供為維護國家安全為民族人民生命生理和財產急迫危險這想要說誰說的算數 我寫的具體一點比較具體到你們有法有法有法源可以處理是根據哪一條來做這件事情所以"},{"start":6931.087,"end":6960.767,"text":"那醫療品質為什麼全文只能提一次為了執行具提升醫療品質公共衛生或社會福利的分析利用及科學研究而且你沒辦法即使這個精神也有點像再生醫療的那個醫療法某一些狀況無法即使有效通過其他方式所取得的資料導致分析或研究結果將產生偏誤對啊這個如果你對於覺得是國家安全或有一些急需東西他寫得更具體啊我這樣寫是更具體啊你那個是一個很空泛的形容詞啊"},{"start":6962.068,"end":6979.057,"text":"那誰來認定呢誰來認定為了維護國家安全這個大家都可以談耶那參考一下有困難嗎請問參考這個我的對第19條的再修正動議有困難嗎有哪裡困難或哪裡難行的地方來換林書委員請行事機關一併回應"},{"start":6987.726,"end":7012.166,"text":"這個第19條是很嚴肅的這個課題啦因為這一條是連你的事後退出權都被剝奪掉了那在這種狀況裡面我們就檢視這三款合不合理那所以它光是第一款依其他法律這個東西我在質詢的時候就講不通是說我就講說這行不通啊不是我講不通"},{"start":7015.424,"end":7038.447,"text":"其他法律我就舉一個例子這個是學者提出來的例子就癌症防治法看起來好像是有很高的正當性癌症防治法它就規定國家要提供充分的資源然後致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究"},{"start":7039.668,"end":7057.635,"text":"即建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作聽起來好像天啊資料要提供研究也要做資料庫也要建立了可是依據這幾個字你就必須要全部都給他們嗎"},{"start":7059.056,"end":7084.39,"text":"所以這個法律沒有清楚的界定限制個人資訊自主的具體手段我的意思是說照這種概念如果你們要認為有這麼高強度政府的所有資料庫人比的資料都不能退出大家都要被研究的話那麼你就在癌症防治法裡面清清楚楚的界定我國家要做研究你們通通都不可以退出"},{"start":7085.79,"end":7110.376,"text":"這樣才是正本清源的法律規範是要在這一個地方否則的話我們就限縮在你這個是霸王條款全部都不能退出所以我才第一款說那我們要限制在第十條第一項既有的職權的有限縮的而且第三項的他這樣子不是隨便一部法等一下他說我依據道路交通"},{"start":7111.909,"end":7134.072,"text":"管理條例我請你給我這一些東西為什麼不可以我要看一下有多少人有保險跟沒保險然後出車禍用了多少資源車禍跟資源使用的研究相關性我亂講的我亂講的聽我可能說我利用什麼某某某法律"},{"start":7134.873,"end":7152.565,"text":"所以這個當然是不行 第二個第二款就講為維護國家安全第三款講免除人民的生命身體財產上的緊急這個急迫的危險但是我的意思是說這個社會上學界也有討論"},{"start":7154.266,"end":7173.396,"text":"我們要任意的限制當事人的退出權的話這個不能夠這樣子寫啦你這樣子寫其實是不夠的而是應該要什麼比如說傳染病的危機來了那我們要訂一個特別法"},{"start":7175.162,"end":7196.747,"text":"那你對於這個主管機關對於特定這個事態的認定和公告你在立這個特別法的時候你是不是要去做到說大家所有的健保這個保險人每個人都要有克責說你有提供而且不得拒絕的義務都要把你的健保資料拿出來給人家去使用"},{"start":7197.967,"end":7222.446,"text":"才能夠說我們資料控制權被剝奪掉了而不是說這麼抽象幾個字就任由資料控制者無條件的剝奪當事人的權利所以在這種狀況在外國通常是主管機關你要在你的法律裡面明定那我們這邊才提供這樣子才是比較適當的所以"},{"start":7224.888,"end":7250.296,"text":"國家安全的話 那國家安全又很抽象我們也可以要求一個機制 什麼樣的機制去設計出來然後作為一個把關但是因為那個各自保護會聽起來好像有道理是不是用這個機制那這個東西要送到現在各自保護會的主管機關誰我也是很擔心 各自保護會現在主管機關是誰 你知道嗎"},{"start":7252.376,"end":7267.184,"text":"現在各支保護會陳委員主管機關是誰哪一個各支保護會的主管機關是誰各支保護法各支保護"},{"start":7269.951,"end":7292,"text":"會 主管機關是誰有時候我們也是要很擔心所以到底是要用什麼機制我覺得這裡真的是可以好好的再討論一下但是第一款那樣子改有限縮了那第二款要增加什麼可以討論那第三款的話我們在這123之外要不要增加一項"},{"start":7293.34,"end":7315.228,"text":"這一些罷網條款的使用都必須要由來申請的這一些機關要訂出嚴謹的程序規定事實的認定不是你說急迫就急迫也不是說你威脅國家安全你就說就說你必須要去對於危險急迫"},{"start":7316.548,"end":7327.296,"text":"你對事實的認定的正當的法律程序要求要來要資料的那一些主管機關要講清楚要明定出來我們才提供吧 類似這樣子黃毓民"},{"start":7338.437,"end":7366.028,"text":"好 針對19條我想請教就是說如果當事人他已經請求就是他已經簽了那個退出嘛那如果遇到剛剛講的這個國家安全對 那這樣會不會有衝突啊要不能退 這個就很嚴謹對啊 那這樣子這一條就是講大家都不能退不允許你退啊管理有沒有off out你這裡是不准的啦"},{"start":7368.328,"end":7373.303,"text":"可是如果不準的話我覺得應該是要更明確的去界定是什麼樣的狀況是不"},{"start":7376.614,"end":7400.486,"text":"所以我們才講說第一款是限縮了這樣子了第二款第三款還是太抽象了國家安全對人民有危險這樣的事實認定不是國家政府說了一句話就算所以我們才講說要不要加第二項第二項要來談說這一些機關對於這個事實就是它的認定"},{"start":7402.188,"end":7420.007,"text":"他不能夠太便宜行事 罷網條款動不動就拿出來你們不准退你對危險急迫的這個要件然後事實的認定他的正當的法律程序應該克責要來跟我們用這兩款的"},{"start":7420.948,"end":7437.574,"text":"要資料的人的機關要有一定的程序的把關我們才可以允許給他所以要增加第二項第二項要怎麼寫大家可以再思考所以我覺得不一定要馬上這一條就那個應該是可以保留大家再思考"},{"start":7438.971,"end":7459.616,"text":"好啦 他連 我跟你連 你要回應嗎好 請來 請署長 謝謝跟 跟 張維還要跟委員報告先就陳昭志委員所提出的這個條文我們是有一些這個 這個考慮啦"},{"start":7460.876,"end":7478.096,"text":"意思就是說以陳委員的版本是說如果你這個已經註記不對外提供但是有符合下列的條件而且審查會通過仍然提出仍然可以提供也就是說他的退出權無效啦"},{"start":7479.268,"end":7506.407,"text":"意思是這樣可是我們在檢視他的情形下他現在的寫法第一款跟第二款是指限定在政府機關購他並沒有其他人可以使用這就是第一個限定在政府機關購可是回到政府機關購在本法行政院版本第十條他都是依法令來申請所以他本來就沒有退出權的問題"},{"start":7507.83,"end":7531.249,"text":"那麼第十一條政府機關構跟其他法人學校可以來申請目的外利用那所以變成在退出權的部分政府機關構如果是依照這個行政院版本的第十一條來申請的那麼又經過審查會同意之後那就沒有退出權了所以這個是一個放寬"},{"start":7533.294,"end":7549.543,"text":"這是一個放寬所以以陳委員現在的這個文字上呢我們必須去排除那個政府機關公第十條來的根本沒有審查會需要同意的問題因為它本來就是依法這不應該有審查會"},{"start":7551.785,"end":7569.076,"text":"這個機制去再卡一次他本來司法機關檢調機關要來調目的外利用那本來就要提供了所以沒有這一個第18條現在陳昭志委員第18條的那至於依照第11條來申請的那就變成透過這個機制"},{"start":7570.797,"end":7598.723,"text":"就免退就沒有辦法行使退出權了所以這是不是要這樣子處理我們是保留啦那至於剛剛林淑芬委員我們是覺得改成就是能對外提供那麼一個是第十條第一項第三條因為這個是本來就有提供義務這個很清楚至於第二款跟第三款是不是參考"},{"start":7600.223,"end":7618.609,"text":"這個陳昭之委員的建議透過上面那個審議會或審查會同意之後再來認定這個所謂的第二款跟第三款的這個排除退出那麼也許是可以一個參考的方向"},{"start":7619.99,"end":7640.128,"text":"好 這位署長講得居心靡靡啦然後 想一下對啦 我知道 當然再想一下然後 那個時間也十點三十幾分啦給各位休息個十分鐘好不好然後大家靜一下 那請先希望再跟提案的委員還是意見不一樣的委員再溝通一下所以這一條應該溝通一下應該會順利啦好 謝謝 現在休息"},{"start":7652.663,"end":7665.126,"text":"其實他還在那邊做補償,因為他有查完,他到底是,他本來說是子宮肌瘤,二十幾公分的,可是你子宮肌瘤怎麼會過敏?對啊,所以那個補償的原因就是說,讓他比較好一點之後才要"},{"start":7676.943,"end":7699.927,"text":"然後我國是有馬牆跟馬匠然後出門去打架我都沒有去我只能陪你去我不知道 我不知道我最不想回家謝謝大家"},{"start":8429.366,"end":8434.832,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,那針對第19條有沒有溝通了?有沒有共識?我現在不是在處理,我不是要問一個,不然你就這麼多啦"},{"start":8451.007,"end":8465.334,"text":"來 先生待會請說明那個張偉豪各位委員我們是有有第19條的建議文字啦那個是不是請那個我們同仁給秀出來我們有建議文字啦那麼因為"},{"start":8466.694,"end":8482.486,"text":"剛剛也有跟陳昭志委員說明以陳委員現在的第18條的規範那麼他缺乏了我們在第10條這個政府機關構依法要來申請目的外使用那個是絕對沒有退出權的問題"},{"start":8484.247,"end":8507.378,"text":"那第二個呢那如果是按照第11條來申請的才有退出權那這裡是在說不得退出啦那是針對第11條不得退出那麼如果以我們行政院現在的版本呢它是比較限縮性的一定要在國家安全還有免除人民生命財產急迫情形下才可以"},{"start":8508.058,"end":8527.111,"text":"不准退出啦那是做限縮只是剛剛林淑穎委員說這個程序的認定應該要更嚴謹一點我們修正一些文字但是如果是以陳昭志委員現在的版本他就變成非常寬鬆只要經過審查會同意的"},{"start":8528.223,"end":8553.758,"text":"那麼因為他這個醫療品質公共衛生社會福利這個是非常廣泛的那反而變得很寬鬆只要審查會同意就沒有退出權了所以這個會不會跟大法官還有本法的設計的意旨相悖啦所以我們是比較保留這個想法這樣還是以行政院那幾個情況來考慮只是讓機制嚴謹一點這樣"},{"start":8558.897,"end":8562.281,"text":"好 各位聽署長這樣的說明來 請陳昭志委員 再來是范林書問委員你說委員你寫的 本來你還假說本來就是要審查會同意 你現在還是也是審查會同意 你還假說假說你覺得不妥的地方就第一條有明文 第十條第一項規定 第三項規定"},{"start":8583.295,"end":8611.494,"text":"我大家都覺得維護國家安全跟什麼美索人民生命身體或財產是急迫危險這個是很空泛所以現在你是用這個建議用前項第二款第三款所定型應該要經過誰來認定嘛就不是就是誰來認定啊那現在就是一個審查會但是報告主席審查會我們目前是在前面的條文會提到那審查會的召集人成員等等我們要有更嚴格的保證他的獨立性等等等等那個地方我們會非常強調"},{"start":8612.295,"end":8626.073,"text":"那在這個前提之下這裡跑出審查這個審查會同意後才得到這樣子允許我個人現在是接受但是前提是審查會我們要盯著看我們今天還沒有討論審查會的組成跟運作來 換林書文委員"},{"start":8633.176,"end":8650.397,"text":"不好意思陳委員 因為看是你現在第一項裡面非經各支保護會審查同意不得對外提供利用如果這個話就是說經各支保護會審查同意就可以都可以提供了"},{"start":8650.953,"end":8674.353,"text":"所以的確是有一點風險那我們現在講的意思是說回到我剛剛講第一項第一項裡面的三款所以我才說要不要對於國家安全人民生命財產的急迫危險要約定認定 健行的程序"},{"start":8676.686,"end":8698.603,"text":"這個要增加第二項這樣這是我的想法但是現在因為我們署長就很迅速的對訂出這個審查會我現在就說我們改成第四條因為名稱還沒有確認怕名稱會混淆所以這裡應該是說應經第四條"},{"start":8702.434,"end":8716.188,"text":"之後我們再確認那個名稱目前的行政院版本是知議會所以就是第四條我現在要講的意思是說我本來是說以這個COVID-19為例它會有一個特別條例"},{"start":8717.216,"end":8731.773,"text":"那你遇到緊急狀況重大的危難的時候你在訂特別條例的時候其實就要在上面明文規定出來讓我們每個人都有提供的義務這樣子才是比較正本清源"},{"start":8732.917,"end":8758.185,"text":"這樣你也不用擔心但是就是說第二款的國家安全國家安全這個我不曉得到時候會有緊急狀況到什麼程度會來不及因為我們訂那種特別條例都是需要一段時間那會不會有來不及這國家安全我就不知道了但像那種重大的生命身體這種都重大公共衛生傳染病這種"},{"start":8759.405,"end":8783.165,"text":"我覺得好像還實效性上還可以我的意思是說在他們的特別條例裡面去界定然後去要求會比我們去幫他扛責好那在那裡有授權了我們這裡其實就不用再審查了我本來是這樣想那國家安全如果不行的話我們就回到哪有我們這種"},{"start":8785.336,"end":8809.643,"text":"第一是執議會在審國家安全也不太對你知道嗎第二款跟第三款我們是在部裡面的下面搞不好是署裡面的下面的位階要去審國家安全要去審查人民的生命身體財產的急迫危險看起來我再怎麼看都覺得怪怪的位階上"},{"start":8810.043,"end":8814.225,"text":"行政位階低的要去審查行政位階高的人所提出來的問題要阻卻人民退出權的這個權利的你把他用這麼低的知議會的層級要去阻卻他的正當性還有這個急迫性我覺得可能"},{"start":8832.085,"end":8861.307,"text":"老實說 會被人質疑啦會被人質疑 也不太適當啦所以我正本清源都是還要到第二款第三款叫提出這一個國家安全有緊急需求了這個人民的生命身體財產急迫而緊急需求了提出這個這個需求的人要阻卻我們退出權的這一些機關他們要訂特別法了要訂要來要所有資料的時候"},{"start":8862.428,"end":8874.317,"text":"讓他們去界定進去啦然後我們就提供的義務這應該才是比較正本清源的否則這樣寫我覺得可能會會被質疑來 請王子旭委員"},{"start":8881.83,"end":8903.184,"text":"針對這個第19條目前看起來的確要從不要太急著去把它確認它的內容我意思就是說剛剛林書文委員其實講得非常清楚我們如果用現在的方式來處理的話可能會有"},{"start":8904.605,"end":8922.993,"text":"蠻多需要處理的地方可是我們也希望他能夠未來讓其他的法律根據這部法律的通過以後要做相關的調整所以我覺得那個文字上應該還要更遮掩才能夠達到這樣的目的所以這條是不是先行保留"},{"start":8923.493,"end":8941.37,"text":"對啦我再補充一下事實上呢你用國家安全社會緊急危險你叫衛福部的這些審議會執議會要去扛責他扛不住所以變成都只能同意只能同意啊所以我們是扛不住那個壓力的也不應該是我們扛的啦"},{"start":8945.467,"end":8962.185,"text":"跟這個主席跟柯委員報告剛剛確實如果是有特別條例的時候像Kobe這樣其實他會回到那個第十條第一項跟第三項的規定所以他就只有法律授權了嘛"},{"start":8963.562,"end":8987.897,"text":"對 它的法律上去訂出來之後它就依法來了因為那上面就要有它特別條例上面要有如果它沒有的話也沒有所以未來所有的立法院的立法者要訂特別條例的時候通通都要注意這個事情其實也不是只有因為各支保護會成立了現在每一個法律都要拿出來一一的檢視了每一部法律遇到就要檢視 遇到就要檢視了"},{"start":8990.717,"end":9011.506,"text":"不過剛剛這個陳昭志委員是其實是希望有一個空間啦讓一個空間說除了這個什麼國家重大這個國安問題的啊或者是這個人民共產黨有一個空間所以我們有一點文字修正讓那個陳昭志委員的好意"},{"start":9012.466,"end":9027.968,"text":"不是變成開一個很大的門但是還是有所限縮但是也許可以不需要原來的第二款跟第三款我們另有一個新的文字提供那待會再請各位看一下"},{"start":9028.689,"end":9044.564,"text":"就是把第二款第三款就不要了然後弄成第四款的文字然後但是他還是要有一個機制去審查之後那麼這個不得就是不限制退出這樣"},{"start":9055.01,"end":9080.063,"text":"這個不行啦,這個門開更大了啦重大公共利益的促進,的健康促進這個門開更大更廣了,這哪裡有限縮這不行啦,大家他也說重大公共利益重大公共利益的健康風險,這太大了太大了,不行了啦,這不行了我只要說癌症防治法,他就可以用這款啦"},{"start":9081.772,"end":9092.527,"text":"你癌症防治法要叫人家提供的義務你要在你癌症防治法裡面把為什麼而且要提供的時候要進行什麼程序這種東西都要訂上去才可以"},{"start":9095.283,"end":9111.414,"text":"這個這一款我看起來是門開更大啦這個可能就是暫時不要討論這沒有辦法沒有跟委員報告其實這個剛剛陳昭志委員就是那個用政府機關購嘛所以我們這個寫法也是這樣這是重大公共利益的"},{"start":9112.435,"end":9139.287,"text":"健康風險評估但是他是受政府機關委託是受政府機關委託所以跟剛剛陳昭日委員的政府機關委託那憑什麼讓我們沒有退出權就一個政府機關委託了我就沒有退出權為什麼要給你只要政府機關委託的我就通通沒有退出權呢"},{"start":9140.868,"end":9148.163,"text":"你要告訴我為什麼是政府機關委託的我們就通通都沒有退出權為什麼這不合理啦 這門開更大了"},{"start":9154.557,"end":9175.854,"text":"沒有,這個一個新的法律制定,坦白講是要非常嚴謹的啦那你們的原有的第二款,維護國家安全這個你要把這個放上去,基本上就有相關的一些因應的一些更嚴謹的認定的方式嘛,對不對被有人挑戰說這個你沒辦法處理這個是,這當時在"},{"start":9181.519,"end":9205.08,"text":"當時在起這個草案的過程裡面這個起草人應該在現場來做一個好好說明一個政府委託研究就比前面所有的東西都還要偉大然後就我們通通不能退出整部法就到這裡這一條就霸王條款中的最霸王了來林業情委員來"},{"start":9206.775,"end":9226.327,"text":"文字在這個可不可以在第二項改成前項第二款第三款之行使應為事件發生時以特別條例定制這樣你還是保留第二項第三項只是要有個單說我覺得我贊成淑恩委員講到你用一個製衣會審查那真的寬到不行"},{"start":9227.068,"end":9242.267,"text":"所以反而不見得是好事所以反而事實上是如果我們認為要放二三款的話因為我也不贊成你們後來講的第四款二三款的話所以前項第二款第三款之刑時因為事件發生時以特別條例定制這樣"},{"start":9249.667,"end":9270.568,"text":"好 沒關係啦 這個林委員在建議的部分你們還是可以思考然後把那個條文草案再弄出來但是你要再增列那個第四款可能大家的擔憂又會更大所以是不是再想一下那我們第19條先保留我們繼續來處理第20條"},{"start":9274.039,"end":9295.894,"text":"現在進行行政院第二次條條文來審查那對應的委員對應提案的有這個委員黎彥勤、邱正軍、王一鳴、徐宇貞、林淑芬、劉建國還有這個陳昭樹委員的修正動議還有再修正動議我們一併來討論請行政大會來表示意見"},{"start":9302.773,"end":9302.833,"text":"法則第20條"},{"start":9321.764,"end":9338.452,"text":"月勤委員有提到一個要把刑責加大我們是寫一年以上七年以下徒刑那月勤委員要處三年以上十年以下徒刑然後那個滑金的部分我們院版是寫一千萬那月勤委員是希望提高到五千萬元這樣子"},{"start":9358.406,"end":9360.676,"text":"那一如為害國家的應該要五年以上"},{"start":9369.598,"end":9395.247,"text":"來請部長我想健保資料庫是一種關鍵基礎設施所以在健保法就有一定的刑責是不是說我們在這邊的一個法則要不要跟健保法裡面的是一致的所以可能目前行政院版是按照健保法的那個"},{"start":9396.307,"end":9399.63,"text":"建保法是安裝一致建保法裡面是怎麼規範的"},{"start":9418.692,"end":9441.954,"text":"健保法八十之一條跟八十之二條當初是為了因應關鍵基礎設施的部分所以我們寫的竊取毀壞還有包括它的有機圖形跟罰金都是跟健保法的一致以上說明是是健保資料因為那邊已經有了然後因為健保的資料呢在行政院裡面它就是被列為關鍵基礎設施以上說明"},{"start":9445.194,"end":9470.769,"text":"好 請法務部是 主席跟各位委員法務部這裡補充一些說明因為是在那個行政院在112年的時候就已經有做就22部涉及保護關鍵基礎設施有加重刑責的修正草案那我們有關資通系統方面核心資通系統的部分也都有一併做考量那所以有已經有一個一致的立法原則跟模式"},{"start":9472.471,"end":9486.905,"text":"這個專條的方式做特別的罰則那這22部的法令其實都有一個一致性的處理那針對月期委員的版本因為看起來是月期委員的版本有增加一個意圖盈利然後"},{"start":9488.566,"end":9511.599,"text":"有處三年以上十年以下還有這個犯罪所得應全數沒收這個條文那其他的條文是跟院版一樣那就意圖營利這個條文我們做了一點小小的補充說明就是如果這個這個部分我們尊重委員增訂但是也尊重主管機關的政策決定那可是如果有增訂的必要的話因為委員在這兩個"},{"start":9513.3,"end":9535.977,"text":"構成要件的刑度都是一樣的三年以上十年以下那如果真的要訂主管機關也覺得有需求的話那是不是就訂成合併成一項那另外就這個犯罪所得應權數沒收的這個部分因為其實我們刑法的第38條之一已經都有規範"},{"start":9537.398,"end":9566.807,"text":"那而且依照我們刑法第38條之二還有第40條的規定是在符合特定條件之下我們是可以估算認定犯罪所得因為有些狀況沒有辦法估算的沒有辦法全數沒收的我們是有追真的一些條文規定那個刑法的沒收條文其實都有完整的規範那也有那種事實上或法律上不能夠訴追或者判決有罪的情形我們也是可以單獨沒收犯罪所得"},{"start":9567.407,"end":9586.694,"text":"所以在這一條就是我們二十條第二項這個部分有沒有必要就這個犯罪所的因權數沒收特別在指名列在這裡的情況我們是認為可能需要再斟酌一下 以上好 我不得這個回應來 請林委員我突然間想到一個"},{"start":9593.276,"end":9611.428,"text":"結構的問題這部法律的名稱叫什麼全民健康保險資料管理條例20條在講什麼破壞基礎設施我以為這一條在講的是說破壞基礎設施去竊取我們的健康資料庫的資料"},{"start":9614.029,"end":9642.796,"text":"結論是說破壞基礎設施你在健保法都有了我們在這裡放這個幹嘛這條應該講的是說你竊取毀壞或者破壞系統而盜取資料我要怎麼處處分你盜取資料是為是以危害國家安全而來盜取資料我要更元首的資料全國的這個被保險人資料然後這個危害國家安全的我要更重的處分"},{"start":9643.666,"end":9651.929,"text":"因為這裡講的是資料那你這裡跟我講基礎設施被破壞基礎設施被破壞是我們本法要關心的嗎你知道這架構的問題我們這裡講的是資料被竊取了我們要怎麼處分你意圖顛覆國家造成國家安全危害然後來竊取我們的資料我要怎麼處分刑責要上他"},{"start":9671.073,"end":9687.97,"text":"你跟我講說破壞基礎設施要處分破壞基礎設施是我們這部法要管的內容嗎所以20 21條這是不是有邏輯上有這個整部法律架構上存在放在這裡有必要與否的"},{"start":9689.491,"end":9716.428,"text":"問號啊應該是 不用啦 白雷化流健保法都有啊這裡不用放啊 但是這裡要放什麼以竊取毀壞或其他非法方式然後偷竊我們的這些資料 利用我們的這個核心資料系統設備 電腦機房然後去偷竊我們資料 我要刻意行責這樣子才是 這部法要管的而你們這部法沒有管這個在跟我管基礎設施"},{"start":9723.029,"end":9745.738,"text":"行政機關補充說明齁其實我們在這部法案的第六條我們有序名說主管機關跟保險人因為他要備次電腦、自通系統還有一些必要的相關設施要建置健保資料的相關資料庫所以呢我們呼應為什麼會寫在第二十條那我所提到的關鍵基礎設施只是在佐證說我們的"},{"start":9747.239,"end":9764.148,"text":"那個刑責跟罰金應該要有一致性好那沒關係你這樣子放著也可以但我講的說如果是用這個非法手段竊取的那個那個是另外要重重的對啊就後面21條後面21條的部分呢一樣我們的刑度是"},{"start":9770.071,"end":9794.297,"text":"就是如果如果對主管機關或保險人第六條我剛剛補充的剛剛第20條是整體來說因為他有竊取跟毀壞他竊取跟毀壞我的直通系統其實目的就是要取得資料啦概念上他就是要取得資料所以那一塊就回可是你沒有取得資料這個描述的字眼你認為說他破壞這個直通系統就是要取得資料"},{"start":9795.557,"end":9823.264,"text":"這恐怕你的熱法律的明確性和保留原則需不需要再加強上去啊不是啦 它開宗明義就是叫竊取 不然是要竊取什麼東西它竊取的目的是竊取後面建制的支通設備系統的功能正常運作者它是講說竊取毀壞或非法方式去危害它的功能正常運作者"},{"start":9825.509,"end":9831.134,"text":"不是啦 那你要加上竊取資料啊竊取什麼東西 他的授詞 竊取破壞是動詞他的授詞是什麼 他的授詞是自動設備或電腦機房的功能正常運作者對 當然你說竊取資料包含其中 但我們為什麼不要講得更明白呢"},{"start":9853.708,"end":9865.922,"text":"竊取的東西受體是什麼那你說功能正常運作他資料竊取走了功能也可以正常運作他的設備功能還完整我的意思是這樣子"},{"start":9869.683,"end":9894.762,"text":"跟委員報告那個20條跟21條主要是在處理那個硬體跟它的軟體20條是在處理硬體那些資通信設備那21條呢是在處理那個軟體就是那個系統電腦系統資訊系統至於後面呢那麼違法使用資料那個是在22條以後"},{"start":9896.723,"end":9912.598,"text":"所以24條跟21條我現在不是在講違法使用資料我是講竊取我們系統裡面的資料對那個是在後面處理20條跟21條後面是講那個使用違法使用違法使用跟竊取是兩件行為"},{"start":9913.459,"end":9942.118,"text":"那就在後面處理啦 因為但我的意思是說20條你在那邊講的是好像在妨礙硬體破壞硬體但我是講偷竊軟體偷竊資料啦但是我說你這兩條都沒有明確的指出這一件事你們就認為說這樣子就是直接認為這樣做就是但我說這個立法上"},{"start":9943.325,"end":9953.448,"text":"明明就可以寫得更清楚的應該要寫得更清楚的是不是應該要寫得更清楚你現在是破壞硬體罪20條等於是破壞硬體來 請王志勛委員"},{"start":9963.174,"end":9990.18,"text":"我就先發表一下意見剛剛林書偉委員所提到的第20條跟21條在處理上文字上可以更精準包括剛剛署長所提到的第20條看起來是以硬體的破壞或者是毀壞或其他方式去影響到這個硬體的這些完整性為主那21條的話看起來是以竊取為主要的動機之下影響到整個軟體"},{"start":9991.46,"end":10017.448,"text":"造成的資料外洩或是其他的影響所以這部分如果第20條一開封第一款就已竊取看起來就跟這個硬體的部分沒有直接相關或許這邊文字可以再做調整那第21條有關於軟體的部分應該有更完整的敘述來確保整個軟體相關措施或者是一些內容可以更完整這樣"},{"start":10018.328,"end":10019.891,"text":"就能夠把第20條跟21條做比較明確的規範以上"},{"start":10032.859,"end":10047.096,"text":"我想我們在講關鍵基礎設施其實現在在很多地方都有提到其實它的關鍵基礎設施它後面那個CII是Infrastructure其實是比較可以寬廣的來"},{"start":10048.678,"end":10074.966,"text":"解釋啦 所以怎麼樣去compatible到二十二十一這個部分我覺得大家可以再考慮但是的確都要是有包括硬體跟軟體應該是這樣的解釋啦二十條是硬體 二十一條是軟體那二十一條你講的是入侵干擾無故取得無故取得是什麼"},{"start":10077.506,"end":10094.553,"text":"因為第一款是講入侵嘛第二款是講干擾第三款是取得刪除無故取得刪除對無故取得那我們前面"},{"start":10096.041,"end":10121.888,"text":"那你硬體講竊取講什麼你20條的硬體講的是21條我們在講竊取資料那在法律上用無辜取得就可以了嗎更寬就是說比如說我們裡面有人不是因為業務的需要去取得資料就算他不覺得要竊取啊他還是裡面的人"},{"start":10127.519,"end":10146.246,"text":"輸入帳號密碼必須要輸入密碼的所以他如果破壞像有些駭客他就破壞他就直接進去入侵然後可以破壞我使用電腦的保護措施所以他會侵入我的電腦裡面所以這個部分呢我們也一樣要比照跟二十條的那個刑度跟法則請您請問"},{"start":10151.75,"end":10168.828,"text":"可不可以釐清一下因為20條如果講硬體21條講軟體軟體事實上是講是說我們講的那個什麼資通系統和一個是我拿到那裡邊的所有的資料這應該是也有點不太一樣就是說我把"},{"start":10170.157,"end":10176.743,"text":"今天你假設你用一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一"},{"start":10192.998,"end":10217.959,"text":"因為我現在像剛剛講如果事實上是20條的話因為我們擔心的過去還是有販賣個資的問題所以自動系統就直接加上這個所有整體的電池是那所以如果那樣的話我認為我的那部分就是因為我覺得還是要處罰販賣資料的人所以我才會要加這個如果20條事實上你事實上是硬體"},{"start":10218.74,"end":10245.032,"text":"那可能就是21條要來考慮這你如果21條是資料的話那我就要可能要放在21條來考量因為你販賣個資的話那個也事實上是對於我們的資料給你們使用的全國的這些資料的話事實上也是受害所以可能如果那樣考量的話我會放在21條以上月井這樣講我再補充就是說第一項裡面講說這個"},{"start":10249.407,"end":10262.185,"text":"這個對於這個主管機關建置的核心知通系統那要怎麼處罰你入侵干擾無故取得這一些要怎麼處罰但是就是說"},{"start":10265.055,"end":10288.766,"text":"這個處罰第二項裡面就製造電腦程式去供他人犯前項的犯罪的也同罪那販賣的 販賣的也應該要納入的確是沒錯販賣或是在外面做什麼的行為也一併要納入是沒有錯但是就是說 那所謂自動系統你雖然第三款有講到說電池記錄那我們建制資料庫的核心資"},{"start":10290.507,"end":10319.526,"text":"所建置的資通資料庫的核心資通系統及資料需要嗎所以我覺得是系統以外還要加資料吧對 要不要釐清你的電池記錄是這些是什麼因為我們剛剛比較擔心是那個我的所有那個資訊被竊取第一項就是第一項的第一具的系統再加上所有的電池資料吧"},{"start":10321.036,"end":10345.143,"text":"這樣是不是更完整才不會產生誤解然後再來就是第二項的製作電腦程式供他人販前項或者是販賣販賣電池資料或是販賣什麼的通通也一併要一同竊取破壞破壞是前面販賣"},{"start":10351.204,"end":10362.966,"text":"我們現在是二十條二十一條一併討論是不是二十條好像就是對因為一個是講設備一個是講軟體對啊就是兩條一併討論啦軟體講的是比較是系統不是我剛剛講的那個資料系統包含資料對啊系統包含資料啊那個HIS系統就是裡面都是有資料系統包含資料系統有點像我們給它寫上去無差啊"},{"start":10382.57,"end":10408.302,"text":"寫起來沒差系統不是資料啦系統就像作業程式這樣我的意思是說這個法律還是要給人民看的但人民所理解的你當然說在後面法律說明欄裡面立法說明欄可以寫說系統包含什麼什麼什麼通通都寫上去但如果你為了怕人民看不懂那種法律的話當然系統就是包含所謂的所有整體的電池記錄"},{"start":10410.524,"end":10425.543,"text":"還是加什麼資料兩個字但後面的立法說明欄還是要把全部寫清楚你前面寫的資通系統可是你後邊的不管第一款第二款第三款講的都沒有讓人家理解真的是在講的是資料欸"},{"start":10427.694,"end":10442.483,"text":"難道資通系統這四個字就代表事實上有含到資料嗎因為過往我們講系統系統講軟體事實上是作業系統那可是你說是涵蓋可是一二三款都沒有讓人家理解說那個是含資料的好那主席那我是不是主席我我化驗一下好"},{"start":10458.157,"end":10458.519,"text":"我以為妳不給我看"},{"start":10461.405,"end":10489.938,"text":"是 好主席那我現在是針對21條就是說針對危害這個功能正常運作的這個處罰那有一種情況就是管理者濫用的這種情況所以我們是不是也要去研擬就是針對妨礙資料系統的行為人如果是主管機關或者是委外機關人員的時候是不是要加重這個罰則所以有的是堅守自盜所以我覺得這個是不是要去"},{"start":10491.563,"end":10519.787,"text":"對 就是加重發財 是不是這個也要把它加進去我支持黃秀芳委員講的 堅守治道的人那個就是你所從事的業務你還給他堅守治道的話一定要比一般人竊取的入侵的他加更重 加重二分之一或三分之一至少"},{"start":10521.429,"end":10536.966,"text":"這樣子才能夠 這樣子才能夠遏止這個犯罪的立場但是我告訴你 外面的錢又開下去那拿錢給他 搞不好他也一樣這樣加重 從二分之一起跳至少二分之一"},{"start":10539.514,"end":10568.529,"text":"行政單位說明二十條的部分它有只要有竊取毀壞的行為這裡我是一指所有人也是包含所有人只要有這種行為這裡的那個刑度跟罰金原來就已經比刑法還更重了我們在這裡就是要加另外一項就是說這個業務執行業務人員所犯該罪從加重二分之一至少"},{"start":10571.623,"end":10600.496,"text":"這個建立是行政單位可供參考啦這有嚇阻捐贖自盜的這個人為的行徑啦我講錯了啦你怎麼這樣說不下去你去查啦另外一個在說明欄裡面其實坦白講都已經有講到你們大家質疑的也擔心的相關的一些資料啦有時候但我也是不曉得為什麼在文法裡面你這個資料兩個字都不提供但是在說明欄裡面是有相關的一些"},{"start":10601.175,"end":10615.632,"text":"一些一些很清楚的說明以上補充來李業勤委員所以可不可以請行政單位整理加重處罰的條件跟處罰第一個危害國家安全第二個意圖盈利第三個執行業務的人員這三項"},{"start":10624.634,"end":10635.423,"text":"看起來二十、二一、二二我再稍微延伸到二二其實如果針對二十的話是硬體為主二一是以軟體跟系統的處理為主"},{"start":10638.966,"end":10665.058,"text":"那如果相關的資料的一些使用不當使用或者是造成不當影響的話相關的法則還有包括所提到的如何針對於管理者造成的這個不當影響可以把它放在23條做一些相關的處罰上的這些應用模式這樣的話三個放在一起就會相當的完整以上"},{"start":10667.025,"end":10695.352,"text":"好 我們因此上還是二一二二一先討論 好不好當然我也建議因為等一下還有林蔚琴委員的個別的二十二條跟二十三條那請林淑媛各位我們是就具體建議因為系統再加上資料兩個字如果沒有不可的話我們就給它寫上去因為我一直在講說法律是要讓人民看的不是給立法者看的然後這個法律的立法說明欄只有我們現在才可以看得到"},{"start":10696.212,"end":10724.21,"text":"一般人還要上網去查詢所以那不是可敬性相當高也沒有幾個人會查詢立法說明欄所以基本上就法律的可敬性要讓人民使用的法律越清楚越好如果沒有不行的加上資料兩個字讓人家一目了然這個是我認為是應該要的第二個大家在講了很多遍可是都沒有討論就是說啊你提供犯罪這些的電腦程式的人同意同罪那"},{"start":10724.91,"end":10740.593,"text":"那拿去使用販賣等等的非法使用販賣等等的難道不用嗎所以這個在外面販售的這些資料的非法在使用的也是要同罪啊來請說明"},{"start":10763.455,"end":10786.558,"text":"跟召委跟委員報告那個第21條因為他的體力是參照我們刑法第36章妨礙電腦使用罪他的文字用語也都跟第358條到第360條的文字是一樣的那如果說我們這邊做文字不一樣的調整的話比較擔心會對於實務上已經有的認定產生妨礙以上"},{"start":10793.393,"end":10817.17,"text":"沒錯啊他這樣講是說為了銜接這個刑法第38章那加上資料那個兩個字就會有認定上的問題嗎叫法務部的說明啊是跟委員報告因為像當初在修訂這些法律的文字的時候其實我們大概都有考慮到就是要立法的一致性因為其實這些文字"},{"start":10818.13,"end":10840.422,"text":"應該是跟其他的法律是我們是有配套配合的那電磁記錄到底是不是含資料其實過去應該是看起來我們是認定是他應該是電磁記錄是指以電子磁性光學或其他相類方式製成供電腦處理的數位資料包含網路資料硬碟檔案雲端資料數位照片影片這些實質內容所以我們過去"},{"start":10842.003,"end":10868.505,"text":"大概就會認為電磁記錄本身是有包含資料也是一種數位資訊的具體表現的形式啦那當然這個部分可能還是需要就我們過去一直都有這樣的認知所以如果委員們覺得說這個電磁記錄不足以表示資料而要加進去的話剛剛那個應該是速發部的代表的意見其實我們你可能都沒有聽清楚我講我們大家在講的是"},{"start":10869.025,"end":10888.157,"text":"系統而不是電池記錄我們在講的是第一項第一句話你去看第一項第一句話第一項第一句話所建置的核心之通系統及資料我們知道電池記錄就涵蓋所有我們把它修正成我們把它修正成那個"},{"start":10893.888,"end":10904.12,"text":"主管機關或保險人以第六條第一項所建置之核心資通系統及資料庫可以這樣就清楚了應該是這樣比較清楚"},{"start":10907.711,"end":10936.656,"text":"就是對主管機關或保險人依第六條影響所建置之核心之通系統及資料庫你這一句話跟你們當時原始的版本是不一樣的喔你原始的條文是講資料庫的系統喔啊這裡是你的建置的系統加資料庫喔所以你現在才是完整的以前是只有涵蓋系統而已"},{"start":10943.584,"end":10950.429,"text":"那如果事實上是資料放事實上是在21條的話那當時我把20條的第二項要挪移到我們的21條加在第三項"},{"start":10967.478,"end":10990.383,"text":"就是把意圖盈利這一項把它加放在我們的21條的第三項以上主管機關有沒有意見就是我剛剛提的原來我寫在20條的第二項要放在21條的第三項"},{"start":10993.567,"end":10997.664,"text":"健治治療庫治核心健治核心治治療庫"},{"start":10998.669,"end":11023.593,"text":"因為前委員您所提的我們是可以把它加在二十一條二十一條的第三項一二三意圖危害國家安全可以嗎論好社會安定或意圖營利者或意圖營路或營利或營利不要意圖或營利或營利而犯前兩項是罪責這樣子或營利不要寫應途"},{"start":11030.379,"end":11032.221,"text":"法務部這樣的字眼是好的嗎"},{"start":11054.696,"end":11069.018,"text":"我們剛剛的建議就是如果型度是一樣的我們可以合併成一條會比較合適是然後我們那個咧加重的好這個我同意喔好以上"},{"start":11084.398,"end":11085.539,"text":"上面那一項 上面那一項"},{"start":11122.754,"end":11150.115,"text":"委員們是想請問一下那個委員們是意思是說就是從事業務之人利用職務上的機會犯就是犯前面幾款幾項的事有時候要加重嗎那這樣的話我們是建議是不是比照那個刑法204條第二項的那個立法體例那就是從事業務之人利用職務上機會犯前項之罪者加重其刑至二分之一"},{"start":11151.296,"end":11161.56,"text":"這樣子的體力同時業務資源涵蓋什麼就是我一直說比照這個就是前面三項的那個含公部門的嗎那也含學術跟那個"},{"start":11176.095,"end":11186.117,"text":"我們原來第7條裡面就有明定說健保吃辣肉吃特定目的外利用管理是由主管機關及保險人為之所以這裡就是指的由主管機關保險人為之這個"},{"start":11188.438,"end":11211.568,"text":"對 那我們立法說明欄寫上去就是說從事業務的人細指這個主管機關及對啦 所屬公務員等等因為堅守之道是最可惡而且容易被利益所誘惑那就直接販賣了 那更可惡那個太方便了從事業務之人利用職務上機會"},{"start":11215.899,"end":11229.322,"text":"從事業務之人利用職務上機會但我相信我們現在所有公務員都不會做這種事了犯前三項之罪者這是預防條款而已然後加重其罪者"},{"start":11246.631,"end":11269.93,"text":"加重其刑至二分之一加重二分之一還是加重其刑至二分之一加重其刑這個法務部是這樣子啊那你會舉例說給我們聽這個加重其刑加重二分之一的其刑和加重其刑至二分之一的差異是什麼"},{"start":11272.748,"end":11297.401,"text":"這個加重期刑至二分之一就是原來的刑度再加重到二分就是像危害國家安全他會怎麼加重如果譬如說三年以上十年以下這種他會怎麼加重最重的話那個刑度最高如果是十年的話那就是十五年"},{"start":11299.66,"end":11326.33,"text":"對 加重期刑至二分之一 最重到十五應該是到十五年 那加重二分之一的我們過去的立法體例大概都是這樣加重期刑至二分之一因為這好像我沒搞 以前就討論過以前有討論過這個這個在哪哪一些修法上有討論不一樣的概念有不一樣的概念喔"},{"start":11329.033,"end":11356.75,"text":"主席我想請問一下那個名詞的部分請說明請問署長 請問署長你那個從事業務之人齁那之前那個前主秘葉佛明齁因為他沒有權限去取那個資料結果他就鎖死那個城堡組的組長去做那件事那個是已經大爆發了他是屬於業務之人嗎是齁 你的解釋範圍是齁他本身沒有權限用資料 他之前有權限的人去用不能漏掉喔 這確認的喔"},{"start":11362.618,"end":11379.025,"text":"好各位同仁看這樣修正的文字還有什麼地方要來 請說明來 來 署長頓浩啦 犯前三項 那個犯的前面沒有逗號應該是直接過來從事業務之人利用職務上機會犯前三項之罪者到這裡好"},{"start":11382.837,"end":11399.811,"text":"如果21條是這樣子的,20條要不要如果是被收買了,然後去破壞硬體建保法要修總是業務人故意破壞硬體咧"},{"start":11417.229,"end":11418.21,"text":"第二十三甲"},{"start":11456.512,"end":11471.135,"text":"如果這個字二分之一的話上加一天也叫做二分之一可是感覺本來這一條本來是像要針對這個執行業務的人可能要更高的期許是他不可以做這可是否這樣的話"},{"start":11474.062,"end":11491.057,"text":"我認為應該至少二分之一可是現在變成至二分之一最高就是到二分之一而已那可是所以意味著說加一天加一個月都叫二分之一以內這個就是修法的時候以前就有被討論過了至少二分之一"},{"start":11496.852,"end":11518.162,"text":"這個就之前就被討論過說這個有巧門啊或者加一天也是二分之一以內或加一個月都是因為我們過去的立法例其實那個我們是是不一樣啦可是這個變成是最高上限因為這個加進去變成沒有什麼很大差別如果加一個月"},{"start":11519.022,"end":11545.929,"text":"加兩天都是至二分之一啊對這是法官的裁量權當然你說法官裁量權可是我們本來就是期待就是你執行業務的人比較容易取得資料的話不可以去做這種事情我們是要加重二分之一啦不是加一天不是加一個月的啦那如果是這樣可能就是加重期刑二分之一但是這樣的立法例過去很少見大概只有一個法或兩個法這就是從重的才會加重對啊所以你剛才呼嚨我騙我我在問你這個問題啊"},{"start":11548.13,"end":11575.874,"text":"你們當然都覺得希望行不要到我們公務員來不要加那麼重啦法官就沒有裁量權然後我們過去的立法體力的確不論比例啊因為很多都有比例原則的問題所以如果我們沒有那個字那個字是最高上限的概念啦我們不能訂一個字少但是無上限它可能加重之後比本行要高啊"},{"start":11576.792,"end":11601.622,"text":"所以所以那個那個家種自哪裡那個是一個上限的概念就好像我們所有的條文的處分都有幾年以上幾年以下這樣不然就會變無期徒刑啦那這樣子的話我們要不要另外一項啊就是從事業務之人利用職務上犯前三項前兩項之罪啊那處五年以上十年以下五年以上十年以下就特別條款啊"},{"start":11608.415,"end":11633.112,"text":"具體的情節可能都不太一樣公務員你利用植物製片你去這個你去這個入侵干擾無故取得那個就像警察當警察變成小偷警察去拍人家的隱私照片利用植物然後賣給這個創意私房的今天來昨天的報導判14年"},{"start":11635.783,"end":11660.836,"text":"這如果不判14年我們都還嫌不夠咧警察然後跟小女孩製作比喻說你當時是怎麼被拍的你知識擺給我看我再拍一遍然後拿去賣給創意私房就是活生生的例子就是這樣所以這麼惡質的而且是利用職務資源入侵然後偷取這個資料我們不給他加重的話跟一般人一樣重的話"},{"start":11662.097,"end":11677.197,"text":"那大家錢沒了就沒走所以五年以上十年以下我們的人不會犯法不會做這種事情所以這一條這貝兒不用你們都用不到的你們大家都用不到"},{"start":11679.502,"end":11708.072,"text":"別人這樣寫 沒有人會用到寫上去了 會怕就不可以做你不做就不會被這條刑法把你拔掉 你就不用怕你不做派對就不用怕跟委員報告那這樣是不是要可能要考量一下整體的那個比例性比例原則就是跟其他的條文就是你建議一下 我們可以聽然後健保法一併修"},{"start":11709.69,"end":11731.045,"text":"健保法一併修這可以法律法律上那條法律也要這條也要這樣一樣的行為一樣的罪因為你是植物之便最容易拿到的你去做因為人家花錢你買的就走你就拿出去外面沒有人你一個都是業務之人不用比外面的人更重嗎"},{"start":11733.208,"end":11751.654,"text":"對啦 再補充說明一下 參事應該這麼講吧因為你們行法204條就已經有規範了對不對應該就是說從事業務之人利用職務上機會換錢相之罪者大大大大嘛 那個錢相就是指各個領域我們這裡是特別法 我們這裡是特別法 優於普通法"},{"start":11751.974,"end":11757.64,"text":"特別法要特別立法我不要用普通的行法那普通的行法加一天也是二分之一加一個月也是二分之一中華民國的刑法有分普通還有什麼中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎"},{"start":11768.372,"end":11780.197,"text":"中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎林委員林委員你特別法是還特別法但中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎不是啦我們現在要處理特別法沒有錯但是你不要去講說中華民國什麼叫做普通刑法"},{"start":11794.222,"end":11815.951,"text":"中華民國的刑法沒有普通跟不普通啦沒有啦,不要創造沒有必要的那種名字出來啦大家在討論,大家在討論,你再講越人差離我我們在講越應該尊重別人的講法中華民國的刑法沒有普通跟不普通好,休息,休息文章給他討論,謝謝"},{"start":11821.857,"end":11849.301,"text":"有當時有分作普通或不普通有的普通法跟特別法沒有錯但是中華民國的新法中華民國的新法沒有普通跟不普通可以請法務部參事解釋你我都允許解釋請官參事來解釋中華民國的新法有分作普通跟不普通嗎我講特別法特別法有 特別法沒有 無論有特別法我沒有講不普通三個字 我講特別法"},{"start":11849.793,"end":11878.79,"text":"那你剛剛講說什麼普通刑法 什麼叫普通刑法我第一次聽到這種用詞簡直普通法 普通法管理條例是特別法自己講就是不普通 是你自己講的我講的是特別法對啊 刑法普通啊管理條例是特別法管理條例是特別法刑法是普通刑法"},{"start":11881.383,"end":11886.026,"text":"刑法是普通法啦,相對管理條例啦,罵不罵,不要說啦當召委"},{"start":12014.48,"end":12014.77,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12522.744,"end":12542.402,"text":"好,我們繼續開會來,要不要把文字弄出來,再給各位委員做參考來,各位委員看這些文字還有什麼地方要做修正的"},{"start":12545.091,"end":12557.066,"text":"加重二分之一啦 七千加重二分之一加六"},{"start":12593.446,"end":12602.05,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":12623.406,"end":12638.438,"text":"對 怎麼修成這樣全部都是前兩項加重其形 二分之一是指第二項那個是第幾項"},{"start":12655.598,"end":12675.862,"text":"其形加重二分之一加重其形二分之一字拿掉"},{"start":12678.812,"end":12705.448,"text":"對 從事業務之人利用職務上機會犯前兩項前面是不是兩項二十條一二十條是兩項 對對 二十條是兩項犯前兩項之罪者加重其刑二分之一來 各位同仁看一下"},{"start":12708.921,"end":12722.654,"text":"這個OK啊就是二十條要加嘛 二十一條要加對 那接下來二十一我們一條一條處理好不好 先二十條看各位同仁有沒有什麼意見沒有意見好 二十條沒有意見 那現在換二十一條"},{"start":12735.256,"end":12752.829,"text":"二十一條的部分是上面還有一個資通系統對不對最上面二十一條一第六條所建那後面的第一項第二項第三項"},{"start":12757.541,"end":12778.281,"text":"第三項 意圖危害國家安全意圖危害國家安全 盾號 社會安定或盈利那最後再加一個 加重即行二分之一所以那個字要拿掉對 字拿掉沒有意見"},{"start":12782.213,"end":12808.624,"text":"好 其他委員有沒有意見沒有齁好那我們第一 剛剛就是病案來處理二十一條跟二十二條嘛對不起 二十跟二十一 好那第二十條就照文字這樣來修正通過然後第二十一條也是照這樣的文字來做修正通過好 謝謝那接下來處理林業勤委員的第二十二條"},{"start":12811.816,"end":12836.39,"text":"請刑事機關表示意見月期委員所提的這個部分剛剛我們已經加在21條在21條因為這是盈利使用所以我們已經加在21條有把盈利的部分加在上面而且現在有加這種"},{"start":12838.065,"end":12861.81,"text":"齊刑二分之一那至於犯罪所的因權數沒收因為剛剛法務部的參事有表示因為那個刑法那邊都有規範所以是不是這個就我們可不可以就是這個版本沒有問題好就沒有了好 林委員22條就不予處理好 那接下來林業勤委員所提的第23條"},{"start":12865.343,"end":12881.859,"text":"因為他會涉及到我本條例的第九條關於申請者限定就是大學法人或學術研究機構等等所以那這個部分是不是保留等到回到第九條的時候再來做討論"},{"start":12882.58,"end":12901.259,"text":"可以啦,那就先行保留好,接下來我們處理第22條林業勤委員是第24條還有邱振興委員、王育敏委員、徐宇辰委員、林淑媛、劉建國委員等全部都是所提22條然後有這個陳昭志委員所提的修正動議來,我們一併來討論,請新機關表示意見"},{"start":12905.426,"end":12921.653,"text":"有關於22條違反本條例第11條第一項規定的這個部分這邊採的是行政法那各個委員的版本都跟院版是一樣的所以是不是就可以採院版通過 以上請"},{"start":12924.95,"end":12952.7,"text":"我有疑問就是說這裡講的是民間當然也有政府機關行政法人還有學術機關還有醫院違反第11條第一項規定未經主管機關或保險人合準擅自就健保資料為特定目的外置利用我的疑問是說你不是說他們不能資料洗出嗎一定是合準後才能進去裡面那為什麼會有"},{"start":12956.321,"end":12976.183,"text":"會友還沒有核准就可以取得資料然後擅自利用這條的說明是指說他如果這是第11條第1項規定沒有經過主管機關核准沒有經過核准他擅自就健保資料為特定目的外利用基本上他本來就是要經過我核准"},{"start":12976.844,"end":13002.072,"text":"才可以進來跑資料嗎現在這條寫的意思是說沒有經過我核准他沒有經過你核准怎麼會可以進來跑資料呢然後又做目的外呢我的疑問是在這裡比如說這些健保所謂的健保資料也有可能在醫院裡面我們的健保資料來自醫院醫院上傳的啊對啊那也是目的外利用喔"},{"start":13002.91,"end":13025.948,"text":"他有可能變成戶地外利用那這種要不要刻意行則你現在是行政法嘛那這種要不要刻意行則因為我覺得我們各自被利用的太腐爛了然後大家都沒有在處理大家可以討論這要不要刻意行則我們的第一手資料來自於醫院然後醫院大量不用販賣出去"},{"start":13027.388,"end":13044.049,"text":"現在還發生醫院當然那個媒體報導的不見得是真實的現在發現說醫院然後他也沒有進到這個保護的醫務被竊取個資但也有可能醫院的內神通外鬼然後他就賣出去了"},{"start":13045.27,"end":13066.085,"text":"也有可能像我們我就跟你講我們車貸中心的車貸中心的銀行的每次去辦一個貸款出來以後所有的簡訊都來了很腐爛耶那這種狀況要不要刻以行則大家要不要看一下"},{"start":13071.925,"end":13093.74,"text":"他們這類似監守制道啊我們業務單位公家機關監守制道的更加重但如果這裡這裡這一種就是監守制道我去看一看你就把我全部都賣出去啊你行政法是罰醫院所以那個監守制道的人不痛不癢因為這這罰醫院的嘛罰機構的嘛還是罰學校的嘛"},{"start":13098.018,"end":13122.534,"text":"但是這個回到各支法各支法有規範嗎行政單位這裡補充所謂的未依未沒有經過主管機關或保險核准因為我們核准他因為他送進來的時候他一定有他的研究範圍跟研究目的所以他一定要寫清楚那經過我核准之後呢他應該要照他的研究範圍跟研究目的進來跑資料結果他沒有他擅自就健保資料"},{"start":13124.615,"end":13148.45,"text":"就去處理你現在說的跟剛才署長說的不一樣署長是說醫院就自己拿出去目的外利用你現在說的是所核准的核准的主題跟他目的利用的真正用途又不一樣這是用途不一致他講的是醫院你講的是已經核准了但他進來跑資料跑的跟你核准的內容不一致"},{"start":13149.19,"end":13161.301,"text":"所以這是兩件事所以我的疑問一開始就問你這裡所要規範的那個那個對象那個犯罪行為不違法行為到底是什麼你要講清楚"},{"start":13170.242,"end":13195.484,"text":"是要不符合我們審查會審查通過的這個研究計畫是要規範這些不符合跟你審核通過的研究計畫不符合要給處分還是說在醫院他就自行把個資販賣出去然後做目的外利用了因為醫院有一些臨床有一些的確是有可能"},{"start":13196.565,"end":13206.714,"text":"像細胞治療啦再生醫療啦然後這些東西就直接拿去給給藥廠然後非法的就是看療效了啊"},{"start":13207.796,"end":13225.603,"text":"有可能啊還是這兩種通通都要規範下去跟委員說明剛剛那一種情形那麼可以用個資法處理的還有刑責那個有刑責那麼我們現在在處理可能還是回到本法屬於第11條第一項"},{"start":13227.384,"end":13251.539,"text":"他變更就沒有經過核准變更原本的這個計畫他的那個研究計畫所以是第一時間你的回答是錯誤的嗎對那是另外一個但是你講這樣我聽得懂但是你的法律條文沒有任何一個人看得懂你的法律條文這樣子寫沒有任何一個人知道你所指的擅自的"},{"start":13254.121,"end":13254.141,"text":"來 請國務委員"},{"start":13273.686,"end":13289.362,"text":"如果依照第22條這樣的寫法真的會造成醫院或者是醫療機構很大的困擾或者是擔心所以裡面應該要更清楚的就是如果是針對於已經"},{"start":13290.423,"end":13316.274,"text":"核准或者是預期要使用的這個目的外利用必須要規範的非常清楚不然你做研究的人到時候出問題的機會很大你如果引用這一條來處理的話那個會非常的風險非常的大所以林書豐委員講的非常正確啦就是你如何把你本來要規範的事情規範的很完整同時是"},{"start":13317.235,"end":13322.873,"text":"超出這個當初規範的處理方式才是這一條要定的精神"},{"start":13326.961,"end":13346.654,"text":"跟委員補充報告就是各位有記得我們在105年以前當初的資料是委託給國衛院去做處理光碟對是是所以這一條呢其實概念上最主要是要因為那個部分的健保署後面都有在追蹤跟處理現在是"},{"start":13348.299,"end":13376.669,"text":"你講的又是第三種犯罪樣態違規樣態喔你講的是說他到你裡面來然後給你複製重製然後再拿出去外面就是說未經主管機關跟保險人核准就是所以我跟你講就是說現在是不會有這種情形以我們現在在安全作業環境下去跑資料的話我聽懂啦但道高一尺 謀高一丈嘛也有可能是重製然後偷出去外面的嘛"},{"start":13377.642,"end":13397.088,"text":"有沒有可能到高一尺磨高一丈你想像不到的然後你會發現但是都事後了事後有沒有可能這種也是在你的這個規範範圍裡面那這種是不是要刻意行走主席來 林議員"},{"start":13398.086,"end":13411.822,"text":"我想問一下你的處罰對象是誰如果是醫院的話可能法律要明定到底誰受罰是醫院負責人還是資料管理者還是行為者這三個是不太一樣的"},{"start":13412.85,"end":13435.749,"text":"所以你到底要誰受罰總的來說你這條法律寫得非常不清楚這樣的規範我們不知道你講的違規樣態紫色的是什麼然後你處分的對象要找誰那因為違規的樣態不一樣所以又討論到說你非法重置了有辦法重置有沒有可能真的有辦法重置那這一種要不要刻以刑責"},{"start":13437.591,"end":13453.984,"text":"因為在那裡在你們空間裡面不能重置結果你他重置了這一種非常惡質惡性重大而且他重置以後可以出去外面不斷的重置那這個對侵害的這個侵害的法益是相當強的這個沒有刻以行則是不行的如果我個人來看"},{"start":13457.562,"end":13474.217,"text":"你先就我們這三個問題好好地講清楚你到底要處罰的狀況是什麼違規樣態你的違規樣態都沒有講清楚講的好像是說擅自就拿去做特定目的外利用者"},{"start":13475.558,"end":13491.345,"text":"那到底是什麼狀況我再重述一次我們的立法說明我們的立法說明寫到說就健保資料特定目的外的利用申請者除了第十條規定第十條規定就是政府機關依法定職長"},{"start":13492.606,"end":13512.615,"text":"因依第十一條第一項就是現在所說的學術研究被妥申請書籍特定目的外利用計劃那這個要經過主管機關或保險人審查核准後使得為之所以我這裡是定明說如果擅自為健保資料的特定目的外利用的處罰"},{"start":13513.775,"end":13533.653,"text":"并且处罚送达之日起一年内后面有一个就是我除了要管制他申请特定目的外利用还有他已经取得了健保资料英语消费这个里面的应取得的健保资料就是我刚刚提到的之前因为国会院我听不懂我还是听不懂那我唯一可以想象的是"},{"start":13534.727,"end":13553.964,"text":"你們一再說謊的我們說外面的光碟還有沒有你們都說沒有了事實上光碟還在外面流竄你是不是在講要處罰這個否則的話沒有核准就不能到你們的小房間就不能夠目的外利用怎麼還會有這一條條款呢"},{"start":13559.062,"end":13582.925,"text":"所以你們在講是以前你們政府賣光碟時代那些光碟包括交通部包括這個其他的機關購學術機構來給你買的那些光碟還在外面非法的在使用你就講清楚嘛你就不願意正視這件事情如果是從民國90幾年到104年的這一件事我就聽懂了"},{"start":13583.886,"end":13589.371,"text":"但你在寫這樣的愛愛妹妹我們不知道你這一條到底要處分什麼違規樣態看不啊這條你們要解釋清楚你們這樣說我們聽不懂"},{"start":13596.025,"end":13622.699,"text":"來 接著請陳清雲委員我詢問一下署長還有我們主管機關這一條你們的意思應該是說如果他已經有繳交企劃書但是他做了這個計劃書之外的內容的運用這一條應該是針對這樣子的處罰 對所以你們的意思是說如果他還是把資料洩漏出去本來就會有個資法跟刑法來處理嘛但是你這個的"},{"start":13623.419,"end":13630.002,"text":"你這條特別針對的樣態是說他做了他計劃書以外的範圍嗎是這個意思嗎是是對就是理解"},{"start":13641.405,"end":13669.461,"text":"你從頭到尾現在講四種了不好意思那個我跟同仁在討論完之後因為那個違反他本來的計畫去執行在下一條可以處理23條可以處理那這一條應該要處理是剛剛林委員提到的我們規定是不得已吸出我們的資料他只能吸出結果結果他如果去吸出資料那應該這個是比較重的"},{"start":13670.239,"end":13676.311,"text":"這條是比較長的啦這個的處罰是比較高的這個是到一千萬的"},{"start":13678.008,"end":13701.803,"text":"那後面那個23條有那個違反使用規定那這個指定時間地點去執行或者是計劃內容那個第二款23條的第二款它是原本的計劃內容它沒有來做修正變更那麼沒有經過核准就執行那個都在後面第23條處理"},{"start":13703.524,"end":13730.126,"text":"所以這邊我們再修正一下文字是不是因為這是比較重的來以這個擅自吸出利用來處理這樣就是他把資料拋出去啦等於是阿你不是說不可能啦你不是說不可以複製的所以我剛剛開始講說這個是不是在你們的小房間裡面擅自重製拿出去的阿你們又告訴我們說不可能重製"},{"start":13733.496,"end":13738.974,"text":"然後這個到底是不是跟之前已經販賣出去的光碟仍然在外面流竄有關"},{"start":13744.411,"end":13768.131,"text":"賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣"},{"start":13768.251,"end":13776.315,"text":"那一些規定要銷毀沒有銷毀的然後還在外面流竄的持有的還在利用的怎麼處分我告訴你這兩條他們說不清楚這條說不清楚讓他們再想一下你們學院單位坦白講對這個草案應該應該要有很"},{"start":13792.915,"end":13802.67,"text":"很能夠理解然後對委員的說明要很清楚才對啦那很多事情也不是華麗定的就什麼事情都不可能發生很多事情都持續在"},{"start":13808.541,"end":13827.369,"text":"很清楚以外我剛剛講的販賣的那些光碟因銷毀而未銷毀而在外面還不斷地重製然後在外面不斷地利用還在外面不斷地流竄的那一些違法的樣態一併就這個機會納管然後有處分的機制是不是應該要一併討論進去啊沒有齁我們大家整天要很謙虛他們賣出去那些光碟在外面還在亂用跟他們都沒有關係這樣賣贏的"},{"start":13840.99,"end":13856.249,"text":"好 請行政機關面對委員的相關的一些擔憂跟質疑要看怎樣具體的然後透過這個法律的修正去把它更嚴謹化好不好22條我們先保留好不好來 接下來我們處理第23"},{"start":13858.274,"end":13865.78,"text":"23條 驗板23條 林業勤委員25條邱振軍 王玉敏 徐宇貞 林淑溫 劉建國等是23條邱振東有王玉敏委員邱振東還有陳昭志委員在邱振東那請先機關做說明"},{"start":13881.78,"end":13908.258,"text":"二十三條的部分是特別針對我們這本條例所提到的第十一條第一項沒有經過核准計劃內容執行還有一些變更展言核准之特定目的外利用沒有經申請就核准就使用以及我們有要求要指定的方式時間來執行資料的特定目的外利用還有也有禁止吸出等等十四條"},{"start":13909.599,"end":13918.367,"text":"原則上就是我們現在所有條例裡面所立定的如果沒有依照條例所寫的說明的話我們在23條都會處心台幣50萬元到250萬元以上罰款並且"},{"start":13926.112,"end":13927.233,"text":"幾位委員的版本呢都是跟院版"},{"start":13942.837,"end":13945.398,"text":"好 各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":13968.188,"end":13996.59,"text":"那如果沒有那第23條我們就照院版的條文來通過了好謝謝那接續我們出於第24條有行政委員所提的版本還有林業勤委員第26條邱正軍委員、王毅委員、徐議政委員、李淑媛、劉靜文委員等全部都所提24條還有這個陳昭志委員所提的修正再修正動議請行政機關來做說明"},{"start":13999.499,"end":14004.801,"text":"24條說明的是如果依照前面所提到的22條跟23條規定處罰者那麼會由主管機關跟保險處實際處期實際處期實際為"},{"start":14015.067,"end":14040.536,"text":"行為之人那新台幣五萬元到五十萬元的一項罰班第二項續名如果前項行為之人呢具有醫事人員資格且違反醫事人員專門職業法律規定則並依各該法律懲處之那這個部分各委員的條版各委員的版本都與院版的文字內容是相同以上說明"},{"start":14042.128,"end":14048.616,"text":"好 各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們是不是就照院版的條例來通過好 謝謝"},{"start":14051.837,"end":14070.307,"text":"第24條我們就照月滿條例通過那接下來我們處理第25 行政委員所提的25條林業勤委員是27條那其他邱正義委員 王育敏委員 徐議政委員 李淑媛 劉靜雯委員等所提25條還有陳昭志委員所提的再修正動議我們一定要討論 請行政機關來做回應"},{"start":14073.809,"end":14094.854,"text":"25條我們所擬定的是一個過度條款也就是本條例施行以前只要經過核准特定目的外利用健保資料呢在這個條例施行後他仍然可以繼續利用但是他雖然申請通過了但是他後面的繼續利用呢還是准用我們本條例第11條第二項"},{"start":14096.694,"end":14123.22,"text":"與第三項 第十二條到第十五項規定 簡單的說他後面不管他是變更或展延 以及後面要求要繳交一些使用結果的報告 通通要依照我的條文去做處理然後幾位委員的的版本也都跟院版一樣 以上說明然後各位有沒有其他 來 林俊文委員"},{"start":14126.873,"end":14148.924,"text":"這個是不是包含光碟包含光碟嗎來請說明即便不包含光碟那我們的處分要不要也準用這裡所提到你講的是只準用11 1215"},{"start":14154.334,"end":14178.651,"text":"對這裡提的是說因為在我這個條例施行以前那已經經過主管機關跟保險人已經核准特定目的外利用了已經核准他的研究計畫跟研究範圍那麼在這個條例施行後呢他後面後面因為他還沒有跑完他還沒有run完嘛他只是核准他來我問題是他這有沒有包含光碟啊"},{"start":14180.236,"end":14201.682,"text":"因為以前光碟是直接賣給他資料在他手上你通通都不知道啊那我們要不要訂一條光碟特別處理條例一條專門處理光碟的這個是沒有光碟的到就過去在現判說違憲以前你們就已經合訂的這個研究計畫嘛是不是"},{"start":14204.593,"end":14227.786,"text":"這個在你們小房間裡面跑資料的是不是對嘛所以就是還在小房間但這個不包含光碟喔光碟跟這個不一樣喔所以整部法律都沒有討論到光碟25條所寫的是我的規範是規範來跟我申請學術研究的申請單位對啊那他要不要試用22條要不要試用23條要嗎準用準用"},{"start":14232.277,"end":14249.908,"text":"就是因為他的沒有啊 你現在只准用11 12跟15條啊那個是指 准用後面的第12條到15條的規定還有第11條第二項的規定但是呢 我在22條裡面都有分別去敘述說22條跟23條"},{"start":14253.47,"end":14272.118,"text":"都有趣名如果違反第11條12條OK好我懂違反效果他都要試用那為什麼我們不直接就總部法律都准用了這樣講就不會過彎路易了跟委員說明因為我們核准之前因為我們現在有一個退出"},{"start":14272.998,"end":14293.927,"text":"有一個退出權所以他除了退出權以外是不是應該這樣講除了什麼和什麼以外其餘全部准用所以我們這裡寫是說核准特地目的利用健保資料也就是他的計劃已經經過我們核准了已經過我們核准了表示他連資料都確認了"},{"start":14296.008,"end":14316.467,"text":"但是我的意思是說 除了哪一條 哪一項 哪一款的狀況以外 其他都准用啊然後接下來我們應該要再訂一條光碟時代的這些光碟的處理的光碟 它那大量慢慢出去 它那不是去人家小房間跑資料餒是資料全部都扣給人家 整個台灣都有的 那很多人的啦你叫他銷毀他也沒銷毀的啦"},{"start":14322.984,"end":14332.86,"text":"就應該訂一條特別公帖條款如果有幾年到幾年之間買透過國衛院買到的這些公帖的資料應該一律銷毀不銷毀的話可以行者什麼什麼"},{"start":14334.158,"end":14353.274,"text":"委員我先說明就是我這裡講的核准特地目的外利用的健保資料關於要適用他只要違反我的一些規定的話那個都在23條裡面都分別有違反第11條13條14條我現在講的是準用先準用再來談違反就有違反了嗎"},{"start":14355.832,"end":14375.702,"text":"因為這個就是過度條款嘛所以他准用到第11條第2項這些使用規定違反的話呢在前面的23條那邊也都寫了法則這個是適用啊准用他的那個我們已經核准過的等於讓他能夠"},{"start":14376.963,"end":14403.789,"text":"按照他後面的那個變更啊什麼的不用重新申請不用重新申請不用退出權然後現在就是說也不用再審查那個計畫啦你的意思是這樣子啦變更還是要來第11條的對他有如果變更的話他還是要準用所以你沒有準用全部意思是說因為前面還有一些程序讓他不用再跑了對"},{"start":14406.081,"end":14426.423,"text":"一定在做的啊 已經在做的但是我們還有一些更限縮的像第11條的第11條我的意思我們也是怕你們沒有想到的沒有漏掉的 沒有規範到的"},{"start":14443.859,"end":14445.12,"text":"你們機關單位的機關單位的"},{"start":14452.172,"end":14477.393,"text":"委員指的是我第十條所講的政府機關構嗎政府機關構基本上它是只要它提的出來對 它只要提出來它所依據的那個職權的法律因為在這個本條例之前政府機關構也有跟你們申請的嘛是 然後它都要依照它的本有的法定職長的法律授權才能來跟我們講"},{"start":14479.795,"end":14503.75,"text":"現有的這個第十條第一項的來的嗎沒有更你本來有更開放的嗎沒有沒有沒有好啦理論上應該如果是這樣子就限定在這幾個就不用再重新跑前面的程序不用再同意權和退出權這樣子而已類似信賴保護原則就是了"},{"start":14505.726,"end":14516.837,"text":"嗯 好吧 暫時是先這樣子 那我們要光碟要怎麼處理光碟一併放在這裡沒有啦 要入法啦 要靠以行者啦我們就 不然這條 這條啦 就是這個這條就是25條 本條例施行前22條啦剛剛22條要保留對 沒有啦"},{"start":14539.318,"end":14567.15,"text":"沒有啦22條講的是其實就是核定的裡面然後他違反規定啦但我們現在不是我們現在講本法實行前已經買的光碟因餘力銷毀啦不銷毀的可以刑責這樣就好了啦起碼不許簡單的講就不允許再使用以前舊光碟的那些資料而且擁有的人應該要馬上就銷毀啦只要舊光碟拿出來用就違反法律就可以刑責了"},{"start":14570.782,"end":14597.393,"text":"您國在舊光碟時代剛好確定每一片光碟都銷毀?有沒有?沒有我們一定要利用這個機會叫那些都變成非法健保幾年了?健保幾年了?三十年?九十五年啦,九十五年賣到一百零四年啦,一百零五"},{"start":14599.239,"end":14607.666,"text":"賣了十年了很多人手上有叫他們要銷毀我們那個人體金庫還是哪一部法律"},{"start":14609.355,"end":14629.482,"text":"也是叫他們要把叫醫院把沒有取得同意的通通都要銷毀那些樣題那個樣本通通要銷毀啊醫院 生物資料庫對醫院很捨不得我這個這麼捨這麼可是當時的法律就要求要銷毀啊那個沒有取得同意就是這樣子那我們這個沒有"},{"start":14632.461,"end":14660.78,"text":"那個以前太誇張了誇張到整片光碟賣出去你還不叫他銷毀那麼大量的資料對多大的那個侵害啊我們在25條裡面規定本法本條例施行前啊像什麼機構像你們國務院所販售的這個光碟取的光碟或者是在外面自行重置的都一律要銷毀那如果沒有銷毀然後經查獲發現的話"},{"start":14663.499,"end":14683.536,"text":"就刻意行責而且他應該重置很多遍了那一直哭 唉唷 我有一個這個今天你要愛我 我給你來 25條是不是我們先保留啦 然後林委員建議的你們就把那個條文弄出來 好不好好 那我們繼續來處理第26條"},{"start":14686.727,"end":14710.471,"text":"26條有院辦所提 林衛生委員28條那其餘邱振興委員 王玉敏委員 徐政委 林淑媛 劉靜委員所提26條那還有陳昭之委員所提的修正 再修正動議林委員這個應該沒有多大問題啦這是事先細則對啊就照院辦的條文通過啦好不好好謝謝然後繼續第27條"},{"start":14713.737,"end":14734.523,"text":"第二十七條寫的是本條例的施行日期有行政院定之各位委員應該沒有其他意見那我們就照原版條文通過好 我們第一文完成了然後我們等一下接續讓這個議事組還有我們相關的官員同仁休息一下然後也請把這個第一文有討論過的"},{"start":14735.923,"end":14763.49,"text":"保留的部分還有調次的一些調整是不是再用一個比較明確的對照表出來然後剛剛有委員建議的在相關的一些條文針對過去的這些情況必須要加以來重演認定的法條然後這草案也弄出來跟這位所提的委員來做一些討論然後等一下我們再進入這個第二輪的討論那是不是我們就20分鐘好不好可以吧"},{"start":14768.211,"end":14784.242,"text":"還是到1點我們休息到1點再繼續開始還是怎麼樣 看大家的意見你也是主要經歷一下你還要調次還有一些內容好 那我們休息到1點繼續再開會進入第二輪討論 謝謝"},{"start":14816.028,"end":14817.19,"text":"不用了不用了"},{"start":14829.565,"end":14833.186,"text":"22條就處理這個就好了22條的本意就是要處理這個"},{"start":14856.192,"end":14856.733,"text":"這樣不可以加22票"},{"start":14875.852,"end":14876.373,"text":"對阿,那是"},{"start":14898.211,"end":14899.872,"text":"對 等下寫到最後面"},{"start":14914.956,"end":14921.718,"text":"這有華澤 因為對華澤 現在負責很遠 現在最好幾條就像24條後面 華澤的最好幾條24條的後面 因為25條現在已經在處理負責趕快要寫違反責備這分的24條"},{"start":14936.203,"end":14952.773,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":16383.752,"end":16407.566,"text":"好,我們繼續開會好,我們來進行第二輪的討論那就第一案嘛法案名稱第一條第一條"},{"start":16412.546,"end":16440.623,"text":"就不再贅述啦 委員的提案了然後有保留 行政機關要不要再說明一下有沒有溝通了第一條我們是特別特別說明說原來院版的條文是特定目的外的利用管理啦那招職委員這邊是希望再把那個未規範全民健康保險資料的儲存處理"},{"start":16441.67,"end":16469.285,"text":"假名化還有對外傳輸及原始蒐集他希望再多加這些文字然後我們原來院版是只有寫特定目的外的利用那其實剛剛有跟委員溝通說我的蒐集處理假名化對外傳輸這個其實在後面的條文都有寫但是委員是說他希望把它更明確化所以我再唸一次就是未規範全民健康保險資料之儲存"},{"start":16473.558,"end":16498.907,"text":"頓點 頓號 處理 頓號 假名化 頓號對外傳輸及原始收集特定目的外利用及管理以保障後面的就跟原版的文字是一樣以上補充再看看其他委員的意見沒關係 文字修好之後請各位委員參佐"},{"start":16503.899,"end":16509.684,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16516.502,"end":16540.397,"text":"主席 容我說明一下我也謝謝他 因為本來是寫利用跟管理這個很簡單 那我們只是想他其實在利用過程的每個動作我們要做 因為每個動作都會有一點問題那大法官的那個65段他也提到說整個過程還包括儲存儲存就是個動作 你要儲存是準備做後面也許假密化等等處理所以我才把那個動作切開來"},{"start":16541.838,"end":16560.223,"text":"不是只寫利用所以剛剛那個健保署他們覺得也可以接受只是把每個動作切開來明確化就明確化謝謝我這樣說明 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員來 其他委員針對第一條的文字這樣修正有沒有其他意見"},{"start":16568.029,"end":16571.773,"text":"你吃啊,你另外吃,你用幾罐呢?"},{"start":16587.824,"end":16609.002,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16616.167,"end":16638.715,"text":"為規範全民健康保護前資料資儲存處理假名化對外傳輸及原始收集特定目的外利用及管理行政機關表示意見這樣可以嗎"},{"start":16643.169,"end":16652.18,"text":"反而變得很瑣碎到一個前面是開宗明義的一個條文然後把它講得這麼細索我不知道行政機關"},{"start":16664.188,"end":16682.273,"text":"剛剛有跟召救委員說明就是儲存處理跟假名化還有對外傳輸這個部分其實我們在後面的條文都有去分別去續名那第一條是開宗明義就直接是寫我對整個健保資料特定目的外的利用及管理啦"},{"start":16683.393,"end":16707.633,"text":"對 所以我覺得認為不需要再加什麼儲存 處理 假名化在後邊 大概後邊一方面有一些定義定義了 然後我知道因為定義放後邊第一條本來就是開宗明義在講這個法條的一些相關的概念我知道為什麼還要把一些 有點像公共事項把它加到前面去 甚至定義加到前面去我們這裡有在規範儲存嗎有我們這裡有規範儲存嗎"},{"start":16716.623,"end":16733.652,"text":"因為現判裡面有特別提到要區分資料處理階段這件事情就是說區分資料處理的每一個procedure 每一個階段所以我們因為儲存就是為了準備後續 例如小明化之前就是要有這個動作儲存這部法律裡面沒有任何作用法在管理儲存吧"},{"start":16740.089,"end":16755.875,"text":"我們也希望說不要行政機關自己寫執法就是把這些這個無法再說清楚說這些行為是被允許的但是有受到規範就是不要讓他們自己再另外去寫"},{"start":16760.407,"end":16786.484,"text":"所以我也是希望說在第一條就是說這些行為是被允許但有規範的那也剛好符合憲判裡面的他用的wording他的字眼就是這個區分資料處理階段的這件事情這是憲判裡面是不是這樣子應該這樣我要照這個概念應該講為了規範全民健康保險資料目的事業外的利用處理假名化"},{"start":16787.765,"end":16815.064,"text":"集管理等等然後以保障人民隱私權也應該是這樣子吧因為如果說利用你可以利用資料但你怎麼用特定目的外的特定目的外的處理假名的利用才有所謂的假名化這樣子才有才比較順吧那除了把特定目的外拿到前面的意思嗎"},{"start":16817.197,"end":16838.852,"text":"對啦特定目的我們現在就是特定目的外的這些利用然後處理假名化這樣子也才比較順啦我的意思是說如果硬要放上去應該是這樣比較順跟委員報我們是建議維持原本的行政院的版本因為我們本來條文裡面還會有要"},{"start":16847.197,"end":16853.9,"text":"那個委託其他後來這個後面的條文就不委託了所以就沒有資料庫建立的問題因為這本來就在健保資料庫台獨大師長代理師長就已經談到這程度我上次我們一直在講這個"},{"start":16864.145,"end":16889.651,"text":"就是每個動作他們都專家他們在這裡每個動作他們都清楚 早用利用這兩個字很奇怪 不夠清楚應該是這樣講啦儲存的話如果有儲存的話那我們後面條文應該就會有規範如何儲存的那相關內容可是沒有啊那如果是假名化的話那我們法律條文後面應該有講假名化要遵循什麼原則要訂出什麼樣規範有定義他有定義"},{"start":16890.931,"end":16906.274,"text":"沒有啦我們條文裡面有定義但是沒有沒有管治假民化要怎麼進行的這一些條文內容都沒有啦就是說如果我們後面的所有管理的這個相關的條文裡面沒有處理到的"},{"start":16907.686,"end":16926.329,"text":"那前面其實就我還是說我們這次是為了規範這些事情然後以至於開始我們會立法規範那這件事情因為這幾個WORDING是在大法官的憲判當中規範的這幾個事情在對應到後面的法條條文在哪裡不是啊那後面對應的法條條文在哪裡沒有啊你的儲存後面是哪一條在管理儲存的"},{"start":16936.451,"end":16965.319,"text":"你的假名化哪一條是有定義但是哪一條是在管理假名化的那如果這樣說一個利用那利用是誰來管是利用什麼那他的利用管理所謂利用管理就是參照後面的所有條文都是在講利用上要怎麼管理等等這樣你再想一下啦因為如果你你放進去了後面應該有對應的主委你後面還是有啊後面那個是目的外利用及管理就把事情說完以後後面還是有那幾個字啊"},{"start":16966.772,"end":16993.046,"text":"就是原來的第三行還是有啊那個字還是在啊只是他原來只寫說目的外利用及管理當中就沒有東西其實那兩個字還在利用跟管理只是我覺得他不夠清楚這樣那就把極盡所能嘛因為這也是有花一落萬的問題啊那什麼叫你又寫到假名化大地後面有定義可是對外傳輸呢"},{"start":16994.059,"end":17021.756,"text":"就要本來事實上是一個大概念的去概括性的因為這個本來第一條大概都是比較是開宗明義後邊當然有相關定義可是這邊就要開始這樣寫的話那要不要窮盡所有後邊有處理的都寫上去我們請教就是如果原來寫的東西有符合法律明確性我覺得是本來是很明確大家如果覺得寫個利用管理就已經很明確了是這樣嗎就夠清楚了是不是"},{"start":17022.917,"end":17047.379,"text":"跟委員報告通常第一條是立法議旨所以只是一個議旨所以並不是說明確的規範應該在後面逐條去建構所以它這個只是一個議旨我們這個是特別的這個是專法特別法是被限判之後才寫的法案所以為什麼當時這個蔡生醫療法我也堅持一定要把醫學倫理放在第一章第一段"},{"start":17048.521,"end":17055.195,"text":"終止就是要加那個字眼進去有點那種精神上的就是說一個原則啦但如果你覺得說法律"},{"start":17056.351,"end":17080.808,"text":"很明確 你覺得法律很明確的話當然我也可以不堅持 我說你大家覺得法律很明確不是 它一點都不細索啊因為每個階段都是重大的你要 你就是 每個動作都要管的啊不是嗎 每個動作都要管的啊我們整個的法律很明確是整個條文下來 整體來看啦那第一條只是在闡述這個立法目的 意旨"},{"start":17081.768,"end":17108.06,"text":"這樣而已那麼細節的東西我們都可以在後面逐條來處理來 請光智區委員這邊也請大家參考一下有關於我們的個人資料保護法相關的規範那也請昭智委員也可以參考一下因為在個資保護法裡面是有提到什麼叫做處理什麼叫利用"},{"start":17108.8,"end":17136.423,"text":"基本上這些名詞的定義其實都很清楚所以如果說我們在第一條已經有寫目的外的利用及管理事實上各自法是可以引用的所以我們就不需要再用比較屬於繁複式的這些文字來讓這個整個法條本身造成困擾這是提供給趙志文參考不過請不要說繁複困擾我是精準型的"},{"start":17137.043,"end":17149.13,"text":"就是很清楚把這個講清楚這是個人的見解啦絕對是精準啦但是你剛剛比喻一下生意你把醫學倫理放在開宗明義是OK但是那個醫學倫理跟你現在講的這個"},{"start":17154.132,"end":17179.14,"text":"儲存等等等那個層次不一樣老實說我是讓大法官的視線裡面的他強調那幾個處理階段我就把他帶過來我知道但是後面法條有處理啦好不好好啦好啦謝謝好那第一條我們就照驗版的條文來通過謝謝接下來處理保留第三條的條文信息官有沒有進展請說明"},{"start":17181.84,"end":17198.437,"text":"第三條是在說明我本條例的一些用詞所以去定義全民健康保險資料健保資料還有特定目的當事人跟假名話那招職委員這邊他是希望在第二條的特定目的呢再多加了"},{"start":17200.118,"end":17216.601,"text":"收集個人資料保資料的法律規定原始收集目的原始收集那另外再增加第五款這邊再把它明定公共利益的款項什麼叫做公共利益這樣子"},{"start":17217.262,"end":17241.088,"text":"那公共利益裡面呢原來原來招資委員的版本裡面寫的第五款裡面的1234其實1234本來就是在我們認知上面的公共利益的目的所以我們在審查來申請學術研究的時候我們這個就會依照第一第二第三第四"},{"start":17242.168,"end":17262.181,"text":"至於第五點因為它指的是健保資料的使用目的無法透過假名化資料或其他合理方式達成這一塊是基本上我們那個使用的目的其實我們都是用假名化的資料"},{"start":17263.342,"end":17279.46,"text":"會提供給那個申請者來做使用啦所以而且後面有寫了一個採取必要的各自保護跟濫用防治的措施這個我們原本在後面的要來跑資料的時候"},{"start":17281.501,"end":17295.187,"text":"我們整體性就是因為要採取必要的各自保護所以我們會有安全作業環境的所以這裡是否要再把公共利益通通寫出來這個可以再討論以上說明"},{"start":17299.665,"end":17321.641,"text":"來 請陳昭志委員謝謝主席主席因為整個條文裡面最常被提到的詞就是公共利益啦但公共利益其實沒有明確定義所以也不能說岳父父說是就是啦所以我們才特別想要把它做一個很努力上做一個公共利益的一個定義啦所以剛剛這個曾惠這個代理商她唸出了這幾個但是第五項我們有同意"},{"start":17323.142,"end":17338.438,"text":"第五款該目第五款這個部分我們因為在後面的地方有處理所以意思保留一二三四因為公共利益很空泛啦公共利益很空泛啦所以請各位參考一下"},{"start":17340.299,"end":17358.978,"text":"他不是只有政策的術語 他是有具體的能夠根據審查的 根據於審查的一些條件就是知道有門檻有審查有界限這樣子所以我們是努力寫出這幾條出來不然誰來說認定這是公共利益呢怎麼認定呢"},{"start":17363.321,"end":17381.946,"text":"跟委員報告以行政院版本來講並沒有在後面的條文以公共利益來做任何規範我們是以實質的這個利用目的所以是在第8條去明定並沒有寫公共利益所以在這裡去定義公共利益"},{"start":17383.207,"end":17407.783,"text":"跟後面的條文的關聯性不大那再者以一個我們這個全民健康保險資料管理條例去定義公共利益這個是非常社會通俗的名詞是否適當也請委員考慮通俗而模糊搞不清楚什麼叫公共利益 國家安全你又說不出來了"},{"start":17410.196,"end":17427.01,"text":"所以我們沒有在後面的行政院的版本裡面沒有用公共利益你們這麼努力你們看一下嘛我們希望有符合這樣子的一個但是後面的條文沒有一條是說促進公共利益就可以做什麼這樣的條文啊"},{"start":17428.382,"end":17456.061,"text":"沒有以設定促進公共利益為條件就可以做的任何事情所以應該是就不用去定義什麼叫公共利益或像第一條院版也是其實什麼公共社會福利啊什麼促進這個其實那個概念就跑到那裡因為我們在講全民健保資料那當然要定義嘛那我們講的是特定目的Y嘛所以要先定義什麼叫特定目的嘛那因為當事人當然要講當事人所以要講什麼是當事人就是"},{"start":17458.523,"end":17478.561,"text":"這個健保資料等的我再跟大家說明一下因為我們第七條我們這個校正隊第七條裡面我們有寫說應該符合身體特定目的利用健保資料應該符合下列條件必須具有重大的公共利益所以是一致性的然後那裡第七條的資料"},{"start":17480.883,"end":17504.241,"text":"就是我們的修正在修正動議案嘛對就是只有在陳昭志委員的版本有出現說那個目的外利用要符合公共重大公共利益所以才有公共利益的定義的需要啦那以其他現在回珠各個委員的版本包含行政院的版本第八條啊"},{"start":17505.302,"end":17527.365,"text":"我們都在第八條去規範使用目的所以並沒有用公共利益這幾個文字所以我們是建議說不需要在這裡定義如果要實質上讓這個使用上更明確那可以在後面的條文在第八條的時候再來處理"},{"start":17530.969,"end":17546.054,"text":"那就先保留剛剛你第七條就說要我先保留現在我們翻遍全台灣的各個法律的名詞定義應該都沒有任何一部法律會定義什麼叫做公共利益這四個字"},{"start":17547.154,"end":17568.685,"text":"所以我會說如果你要對因為只有你的版本有搭配到那一句話也只是一句話那是不是把那一句話的概念放到第八條來整合進來那配合你們也有公共一個公共會議沒有任何一部法律裡面的名詞定義是去定義公共利益的那署長就是說"},{"start":17570.602,"end":17588.599,"text":"這幾條我們的建議內容你可以想辦法放在什麼地方我們再從第8條來看第8條我們現在是使用墓地那這個召之委員的條文是希望說讓它很明確而不是用描述式"},{"start":17589.299,"end":17605.827,"text":"招職委員是不是這樣子你聽一下叫行政院的版本就是申請特定目的外利用健保資料應符合公共利益啦那以促升以提升這個行政院版的後面後面這樣子包含後面後面這樣子"},{"start":17608.581,"end":17630.303,"text":"第八條放進公共利益啊公共利益就是後面那些那些行政院的版本那一些啊第八條放到公共利益是不是公共利益放到第八條啦因為第八條整體概念就是公共利益了啦那我這裡就可以留著囉應該就不用名詞定義了啦但是第八條就等於是在定義公共利益了啦"},{"start":17637,"end":17657.597,"text":"第三條如果說我們希望把公共利益做完整的定義的話可能要麻煩法務部同仁是不是有在其他的法案上面有類似什麼是公共利益這樣的處理模式因為我們知道其實公共利益有很多元"},{"start":17658.718,"end":17674.659,"text":"你是透過醫療的公共利益還是屬於這個建設的公共利益或者是哪一類的所以這個部分可能華為部同仁可不可以也幫我們明顯或者說明一下來請說明跟主席跟各位委員"},{"start":17675.4,"end":17693.536,"text":"報告一下我們查剛查了一下我們的法條內容有公共利益的字文字大概有277筆但是都是只有公共利益四個字並不會在下面做一些說明那我們要做名詞定義通常都是有那個法院的實務判決判例大法官會議解釋來做"},{"start":17694.517,"end":17716.118,"text":"就各個不同的面向他們會有不同的案例具體的事件然後來做公共利益的說明可是在法條裡面大概就沒有辦法統一做一個定義那以上是做一點補充以前做不到不表示現在不能做啊這新的法但是因為公共利益有很多面向今天我們特指健保各自這個管理管理條例啊"},{"start":17717.335,"end":17736.053,"text":"我們這麼努力沒關係啦那個陳委員陳委員你看一下就是說我們第八條衛福部所講的那一些東西就是這一部法律裡面的公共利益啦所以你要講公共利益應該就是這幾項而已嘛提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利促進學術研究"},{"start":17738.417,"end":17759.552,"text":"這些就是政府法律所要促進的公共利益在修正動議案也是很具體的跟陳委員說明因為您在這個第三條要做名詞定義主要是要扣合您的第七條條文說要申請這個目的外利用要符合下列要件並"},{"start":17761.494,"end":17778.034,"text":"據重大公共利益嘛所以其實它實質是在你的第七條所以那些實質的內容我們可以用第八條這院版的第八條來處理不需要在這邊認定公共利益因為那個是重複啦"},{"start":17779.175,"end":17806.606,"text":"不需要去訂我們來處理OK但是就是說我們這樣寫出的東西你有沒有接受有沒有接受看移到哪個地方就是到第8條來處理因為第8條您的第7條下面就有把這些寫出來用於公共衛生什麼什麼就是不要讓第8條我們現在第8條是比較概括性的論述那您的第7條是比較條列具體式的那我們把它並並看"},{"start":17807.986,"end":17835.909,"text":"並進到第八 這邊就不需要做名詞定義免身混淆我想公共利益如果經過大家剛剛的討論的話其實我們在修正動議上面第八條又增進公共利益是要在裡面把它完整的陳述還是要立法說明裡面把什麼叫做公共利益做非常完整的說明等一下他們還可以再討論所以我想這個部分是不是陳委員也可以確認了解一下"},{"start":17840.772,"end":17858.142,"text":"我們在第17的修正動議裡面針對於什麼是去民化要再加強說明的地方在立法說明最後有增加幾個文字之前有跟大家討論過就是以其於加密"},{"start":17858.622,"end":17886.089,"text":"去識別化等各類型的隱私強化措施共同來降低這個資料主體可能面臨的風險也請大家能夠支持說把這個說明可以做得更完整讓未來的在去假名化的過程裡面可以確認不是是只有假名化這樣的需求而已以上所以翁偉師兄在立法說明裡面更明確的把"},{"start":17887.128,"end":17913.794,"text":"那定義講清楚就對了啦可以啦 等一下就補那個立法說明的文字給大家做參考我們立法說明裡面去強化剛剛王委員所提的這一些說明這樣好 OK 好 謝謝所以第三條我們就照院版來通過啦OK 好 謝謝大家那繼續來處理第四條第四條"},{"start":17915.95,"end":17929.494,"text":"保留的條文來 行政機關再說明一下第四條院版是就是在主管機關應該組成資議會那我們院版提了六項提了六點"},{"start":17931.115,"end":17953.47,"text":"那招資委員的部分呢他希望會改成審議會審議會那另外他多加了總共我們原來院版有六款那他增加了九款有特別把那個申請資料特定目的外利用的申請人資格特定"},{"start":17954.23,"end":17974.958,"text":"目的外的審查以及例外不許停止的必要性審查那另外前面還加了就是健保資料的資料儲存管理對外傳輸的考核還有擬定健保資料特定目的外利用的資料風險等級那這裡再補充說明就是因為這裡是講我們"},{"start":17977.259,"end":17990.875,"text":"市議會或者是審議會他的任務啦那裡面招職委員所加的這個部分有一部分我們是會在後面第11條11條審查有審查程序記者那邊去做處理"},{"start":17992.236,"end":18014.625,"text":"那這個部分是不是在容許委員們討論許醫師不好意思這裡是我整個法條裡面我最重視的一個部分就是要有個獨立的審查機制那因為之前我提的那個個人個資保護委員會大家覺得有自在難行之處所以這次我的再修正動議才改成就是說第一個他絕對不能是資議委員會"},{"start":18016.045,"end":18039.936,"text":"資育委員會就是under健保署最後是健保署做決定那就不服就違憲了這是會有問題會要重寫就是因為要有個獨立的機制所以一定基本上要做是審查的功能第二個審查功能這個組成成員等等包括召集人不得為機關代表等等就是緊接著後面我是一致的緊接著後面就有來做這一些的這個規範"},{"start":18041.457,"end":18054.394,"text":"我們務必讓這個獨立的這是大法官才是的獨立的這個機制看得見有這個功能有實際的功能所以我很不好意思如果這個地方還留在質疑的話那我就保留謝謝"},{"start":18062.553,"end":18063.054,"text":"因為民間一年三百多案來申請"},{"start":18079.855,"end":18107.348,"text":"那來申請的時候呢每一個研究計畫目的大家都要審每一案都要審所以才有審議會那這裡的資議會看起來像是說有爭議的時候上升到上面的資議會來討論或者是就政策上的方向資議會來討論所以這是不同的層級但陳委員一直就是要把各支保護會拿進來但各支保護"},{"start":18111.438,"end":18129.402,"text":"你現在審議的目標是什麼如果你的審議的在修正我們跟我們的後面的每一個來申請的個案我都要審議的話那麼就是後面就有了是不是到後面再來討論這個就關鍵上次"},{"start":18133.897,"end":18142.661,"text":"關鍵就是留在這個地方沒有錯啦,但是我是提醒陳委員,因為這個是講審議因為你要,對不起這個是講質疑,你要審議,後面我們就會有審議我們有審議嘛,第幾條?11條所以那個審議一樣會討論到審查會在第11條新增"},{"start":18159.12,"end":18169.329,"text":"一個獨立監督的機構能夠制定所有的辦法跟成員這是我們今天要立這個專法的初衷"},{"start":18171.685,"end":18199.765,"text":"我覺得自議會跟審議會的名稱當然是一個爭點就召之委員的版本那他最新的在修正動議裡面講說這個假名化的資料儲存管理對外的傳輸這個也是審議會的任務然後目的外的資料的風險等級的管理和審查制度這個也是審議會的任務還有什麼不一樣的"},{"start":18202.331,"end":18228.282,"text":"那這一些東西會是一個需要審議會經常審議的嗎?譬如說特定目的外的資料的風險等級的管理和審查制度你總共只有這個資料庫而已嗎?不是啊 怎麼管就一行而已?有經常需要審議的嗎?應該也沒有啊它的制度經常只有一套而已你覺得再設一個審議會去審議"},{"start":18231.636,"end":18245.298,"text":"那你說要考核要怎麼個考核我的版本沒有字義啊就是所以我只有一個選擇沒有就用你的審議的概念也一樣啊就是說那些特定目的外的安全維護措施和監督防護"},{"start":18246.414,"end":18261.817,"text":"我就是要來審議這個 啊他就一個資料庫啊就一個系統你這樣就直接審核 你要審核什麼啦我們就是在定義這個審議會他的任務他要做到哪些事情"},{"start":18263.582,"end":18286.462,"text":"現在就是正在定義然後讓他們去執行啊對啦你比如說部地外利用的健保資料有爭議的處理喔這個來審議就因為可能爭議很多嘛那他到底有沒有符合研究計畫或是他有沒有符合變更啊改革三制變更卻沒有申請那有爭議嘛那就大家來審議會來討論這樣是有道理的可是你的第二款或是第一款"},{"start":18287.863,"end":18314.278,"text":"第一款考核每年考核啦這個就可能或許有啦但是因為你的考核是外部類似外部嘛因為它是外部集合嘛他們有內積當然也有外積或許第一款可以討論那像你第二款的說這個第二款的管理審查制度那制度你管理一次審查一次就停下來你也不可能經常需要審議啊還有什麼"},{"start":18317.377,"end":18346.309,"text":"爭議處理這個我們他那個他的爭議我們已經把那個也放進去了啊還有什麼不一樣的還有哪一款不一樣的第七款跟第八款那個目的的審查還有例外不許停止的那是各位到審查會裡面我們就可以放進去了啊現在就是現在就是你的第一款第二款我認為應該是寫了多餘的啦那那第三款"},{"start":18349.499,"end":18370.465,"text":"安全的防護措施 這第三款也一樣的 它也有啊那個好像第一第二不一樣是不是3456都跟院版一樣12781278 七八已經在後面我們有一個審議會每一個個案來申請利用的時候我們就有把關的機制 已經有了那剩下一和二還有這個審議會還是議會這個名稱的問題嘛"},{"start":18373.206,"end":18389.391,"text":"那第二個你要去考你要去考核他要不要要不要賦予審議會一個外部稽查的那種角色這當然也可以討論啦但第二款我是覺得不用了啦第二款你說"},{"start":18391.28,"end":18418.936,"text":"野資料的管理和審查制度你要審查什麼啊我們也不能看野資料要怎麼審查他可以建立方法學啊方法學一次建立好了就好了就結束了啊這個方法學也可以有一些修正啊署長你了解啊你先要審查過去大家在討論怎麼來做這些事情啊你後來PVM都是這樣加進來的啊他有一定的方法學在處理事情啊這個應該是內機的程度內部管理就可以了啦"},{"start":18420.317,"end":18434.509,"text":"我們目前的形態是這樣就是要利用這些資料陳委員在第二款裡面想要建立的是說我們在對外提供這些資料要秉持最小揭露原則"},{"start":18435.57,"end":18451.463,"text":"适当性原则意思就是说你的研究目的跟你要的资料的比数跟你要的资料的栏位是不是相当这个就是在做风险管理我们现在目前的风险管理是这样子的"},{"start":18451.983,"end":18471.151,"text":"你的研究目的你要200萬人那我們審查的結果認為你這個這個其實10萬人就夠了因為這個疾病你所做的這個疾病它是很普及的當然如果你這個疾病的發生率很低你要的這個人 sample size這個樣本數當然就要多一點"},{"start":18472.051,"end":18488.437,"text":"那要哪一些欄位跟你的這個研究目的相關不要多要所以最少揭露適當原則來處理所以那個都是在審查會要主案去認定我們沒有辦法馬上定這個定的原則如果在這裡定原則就是講"},{"start":18489.958,"end":18502.452,"text":"最小揭露適當性就這樣而已但是每一個個案我們審出去的時候那個是在審查會去跟他跟他審查他的這個計畫研究計畫的時候再去討論"},{"start":18504.719,"end":18532.324,"text":"這樣講我們就聽懂了這位委員那書中比你說的更清楚啦就是說這一個不是委員你要先設定一個你同不同意有兩個層次的審議或質疑啊兩個層次一個是大的這個方向他的任務就是行政院講的然後再來就是第二個就是每一個個案來申請的一一把關的審議"},{"start":18533.544,"end":18536.628,"text":"那依依把關的審議有爭議的時候再送到我們大的這個知議會來處理你要先同意這一種架構我們才能夠繼續討論如果你不同意這種架構你都把兩種架構混在一起我們沒有一起討論的對話的基礎"},{"start":18552.765,"end":18562.516,"text":"因為你都跟人作會啊如果你同意這種架構那我們把你想要的放到這個審議會每一個個案討論的時候來具體討論這樣子我們可以對話的時候你就可以再講說那如果"},{"start":18568.243,"end":18572.745,"text":"不符合最小當然審議會的成員你就反而那個專家可能偏頗行政部門嘛也偏頗業者還是學術機關嘛那所以他審的研究計畫明明就不符合這個目的外利用或者是說他最小的揭露不需要讓他那麼大筆資料的時候那有爭議的時候那再送上來上面他也可以再處理這一個爭議"},{"start":18597.613,"end":18613.22,"text":"類似這樣子的話 他有個比較上位的一個爭議處理的執議會再加上他政策目標的把關的執議會然後你講的執行細節上所要的一一的把關再放到審議會這兩種架構你同意了"},{"start":18616.707,"end":18625.357,"text":"我們才可以討論啦 因為你若沒有批落你一個人跟大家都 大家都同意兩種層級啊你一個就一直主張要跟人作會啊這個無法對話啦 老實說 我也不會說啦啊你要再說清楚 但是你再說不清楚我也聽不懂 主張說完 我們才有清楚來 先請王主席回應"},{"start":18642.547,"end":18669.319,"text":"謝謝主席針對這一部分其實我一開始的時候也很擔心自醫會跟審議會造成的一些影響因為我們了解自醫會的確在要求上不像審議會可以讓大家那麼放心因為自醫會就是公共的有主管機關就做最後的確認沒有一定的那種審議的這個過程或者是想要達到的目的這是我當初比較擔心的"},{"start":18669.739,"end":18697.916,"text":"不過後來經過幾番的討論以後如果我們把自議會跟後面的審查會作為一個同步處理跟區隔的話希望能夠化解剛剛林村委員所提供的內容也希望那個召助委員能夠來了解一下那我自己後來就也可以尊重就是有關於這個自議會提供原來的這個名稱跟他的內部的處理模式"},{"start":18698.456,"end":18725.789,"text":"那在第11條的部分再增加一個審查會就不是審議會那審查會我們就希望有一個比較具體完整的處理模式那我們本來是希望在原來的第5條裡面的審議會在執行的時候就會很擔心說每年有300多案那會不會這個審查會就是事情做不完大家沒有必要去把一些本來就不是太需要經過審查會做完整討論的"},{"start":18727.109,"end":18744.635,"text":"這些簡化的部分可以做處理所以審查會如果改成自議會的確可以減少這樣的困擾所以很希望能夠定一些辦法來做處理不過如果我們現在經過把第五條還是維持自議會可是在第十一條有一個審查"},{"start":18746.336,"end":18774.398,"text":"這樣的內容而且有訂定完整的辦法我想這樣大家就比較能夠同意說這樣的調整是可以符合期判你的質疑會跟架構是誰高誰低啊誰高誰低啊你的審查會跟質疑你的質疑會跟那個審查會你的架構是誰高誰低啊是這個其實我們也有討論過啦就是說一部法裡面有質疑會有審查會一年三百案不算多"},{"start":18775.058,"end":18803.837,"text":"任何一個參加委員會每次我在主持都是二十幾件一年每個月都要開會有時候加開會議一年三百對一個委員會來說一點都不多第二個過去的資議委員會他的結果還是健保署在處理的即便是共理會有點像我們final那個也是健保署在主導的所以我一直認為說這個獨立性就是不夠我過去讓我知道參與太久了讓我知道這個獨立性完全不夠最後都是健保署拍板定案"},{"start":18804.938,"end":18833.46,"text":"所以我是希望說是真正有一個具有審查功能的根本就是而且我不認為三百案件會嚇死人啊這麼多人專家一群你也沒有兩批專家可以做啊一批專家做這個質疑一批專家在做審查根本沒有那麼多人熟悉在運作因為你還是要去熟悉了解我們的規範標準等等就像健保的運作本身也不是隨便抓一個民醫來他就可以進入委員會去討論的所以有時候才會亂七八糟完全失掉那個原來的準則"},{"start":18834.841,"end":18854.926,"text":"所以我的思考就是一個機構他就是做審查然後他的成員非常重要我的從頭到尾思考都沒有改變過但是因為一開始部長署長都說這樣講過太多我可能有太重都沒有我自己進去就是一年處理幾百案我主持共理會八年每年都處理一兩百案"},{"start":18859.014,"end":18872.089,"text":"兩者加過我過去的經驗是全部都歸於過去都歸於健保組織組織委員這樣我具體跟你建議啦你就只會檢視你自己的這個審議會你一共有八九款 九款"},{"start":18872.847,"end":18893.688,"text":"如果這九款透過兩種架構都可以被實際的運作出來有的放到審議會 有的放到執議會你同意兩種架構 然後你的九款都被放進去了這就實質上你要的都有了嘛"},{"start":18894.289,"end":18907.767,"text":"那第一層級叫諮議會那諮議會他也不是全部都諮詢和建議而已他諮議會裡面有第三款的爭議的處理第四款的爭議的處理這裡明確的講了爭議的處理那他顯然就不是建議了"},{"start":18912.893,"end":18938.625,"text":"如果不放心的話在立法說明欄來講我們也可以講進去就是說這個遇到這個主管機關這個爭議的處理要交給這個執議會執議會的開會就是決定了你可以把立法說明欄放進去那我覺得你這裡面唯一不是唯一有一點是真的很值得拿出來討論的就是你的第一款"},{"start":18939.545,"end":18954.397,"text":"因為有內積以外要不要外積要不要考核這個知議會來給你外積一下那一個考核這個考核要做什麼依據要到哪考核的強度要到哪裡可以再討論這樣子那你的"},{"start":18957.66,"end":18979.937,"text":"第二點老實說這個很像行政管理的層級很像他們內部的行政管理那你的七八點就交到審議會而且審議會的那個後面的審查會還審議會啦他在審這三百多案一年三百多案的時候就一定要踐行你所講的這幾個東西的話你就實質都放進去了"},{"start":18983.38,"end":18996.21,"text":"只是你的東西你要的通通都有了只是把它拆成兩種架構這樣子你能不能同意因為你如果沒辦法接受我們都沒辦法討論你自己可以保留這樣而已因為大家討論出來的兩種層次兩種架構那任務"},{"start":19000.854,"end":19024.615,"text":"跟那個組成的功能都不一樣啊你硬要把它放在一起然後由一個會去處理那這個會顯然也是無限大對我來講我很簡單我要防避的是如果夾子或是學術團體要來申請要關搜誰比較快關搜我反而說我們這些人這樣讓他們關搜下去根本就不應該核准的也叫核准要怎麼做譬如說"},{"start":19026.396,"end":19050.93,"text":"類似這樣子我跟陳委員說明如果委員一直在擔心健保署會置議妄為更應該分兩層因為這個置議會是主管機關本法主管機關是衛生福利部所以這個置議會是由衛生福利部設置那麼審查是另外審查如果把審查剛剛說的通通併在同一個單位更有可能篡權"},{"start":19053.672,"end":19075.654,"text":"就是規則他定審查也他定那我們現在的設計是規則在上面製衣會討論下面是個案審查的審查會所以審查會如果有爭議還會到製衣會討論那如果是歸於一尊那通通都是在這個這個所謂的審查會什麼都包那反而少了監督機制"},{"start":19077.159,"end":19085.849,"text":"所以這個第四條是由主管機關絕對不是在健保署它是在衛福部裡面"},{"start":19086.993,"end":19113.588,"text":"那麼審查的時候呢他就會分兩個審查一個是在部裡面因為部裡面有一個資科中心他在提供資料服務他有審查會一個部分呢是在健保署只用到健保資料的那我們也有個審查會那每年的申請案其實健保的量是少的來跟健保申請的不過二三十案真正多的是在部裡面的資科中心是三百多案"},{"start":19114.548,"end":19141.614,"text":"那上面有一個執意會來處理爭議跟相關的監督機制我認為這樣更符合你的要求他才有互相監督的機制你把不同的功能當然所有的利益把不同的都有到每個地方都有分配到但是事實上在運作的時候譬如說你怎麼挑你有什麼標準一群人又有一群人的好處同一群人所以為什麼我把那一群人的那個整個資格組成"},{"start":19143.054,"end":19171.793,"text":"他的利益衝突這個都緊接著就寫在第五條就是這個樣子你用不同的方式他們的第一個審查標準不一樣有沒有一致個別性也很高然後最後要篩選來什麼往上送有爭議的也是你健保署決定的啊就是你審查單位決定的啊速度多快什麼時候給你有沒有流程速度有沒有公開有沒有一些透明度我真的請你連這個新要審查速度叫你公開上網目前進度到哪裡你就搞了一年都不肯做"},{"start":19173.514,"end":19201.428,"text":"這個這麼重要的事情我們要透明公開這個一碼歸一碼這個就不是啦現在這個主管機關就是衛福部啊所以就不會是設在健保署啊現在就很清楚的跟您報告就是這樣那個對不起我簡單再提醒說明一下啦因為我們第一個文章討論的時候就已經有針對這個質疑跟審議審查就已經有特別有提過啦這部法條的主管機關叫衛福部"},{"start":19203.118,"end":19230.456,"text":"這個也都在今天的早上討論也都有提到所以蔣主委員如果如果說剛剛也這麼多人也特別建議你啦就你不管你要審議之意基本上這兩個法條裡面都有你要的東西應該應該就不用focus說一定只有堅持在這個現在你的這個修正動議裡面來做處理啦你思考一下 來請立委員"},{"start":19232.052,"end":19255.682,"text":"但是有一個就是說第一款我覺得讓知議會不要讓召職委員變成說只是諮詢建議而已第一款是說這個特定目的外利用的管理監督政策法令的擬定事實上不要講建議擬定事實上很多擬定其實也是你們先行政準備出來的所以知議會讓知議會的"},{"start":19259.664,"end":19287.236,"text":"質疑看起來大家好像就覺得建議的功能啦所以的這不是獨立機關因為一旦寫擬定它就是獨立機關好吧所以一定是建議因為要發布法令的是這一個主管機關是衛福部所以這個質疑會當然是提建議啊我們會把這些法令送到質疑會討論徵詢大家的意見最後發布的一定是衛福部啊啊如果這裡直接寫擬定哇那這不得了它就是獨立機關"},{"start":19288.817,"end":19296.399,"text":"那是完全不一樣那個架構是不同的好吧那就是這樣子我不堅持但是他講的這個考核"},{"start":19298.271,"end":19321.282,"text":"可以啊 考核給他進去就是如果招職委員你愛的每一款在這個我們都把你放進來了每一款都有一個地方給你塞進來可以做了那你說執行起來不一樣那已經不是法律的問題土法不足以自行嘛大家知道嗎法律定的在完美但是如果是"},{"start":19322.455,"end":19346.161,"text":"沒辦法運作的那種法律也不好誠意過高的那種法律也不好但是有一種是定的可以的可以執行但是執行面會出問題的那又是另外一件事我們知道法制面把它定好了執行面還可以招精那是沒辦法你不可以說你行政部門要把你定的事消耗的事絕對不需要你行政部門擴全讓你把它單方面主導我跟你說也不可能有那種可能啦"},{"start":19352.355,"end":19360.299,"text":"你說我的房幣 房子他們行政獨大 絕對沒辦法 北部的問題是沒有那種法律才會出來你行政權就是有相當的行政裁量權他就有他的空間你沒有辦法頂到一個法律是說他全部都要聽我的 不可能所以執行面怎麼樣 你一直講執行面執行起來過去你的經驗怎麼做 那是另外一個問題"},{"start":19381.109,"end":19396.076,"text":"而且要問責於行政權獨大的不是透過立法程序一個機制問責於行政權獨大的不要忘了還有政治問責啊各政治責任因為這善權這麼擴權這麼無法無天"},{"start":19399.998,"end":19419.313,"text":"事實上有政治條件可以問責,有選舉機制,有可以很多的問責的機制,民主的監督和制衡,不是只有這個法律下水就有辦法,土法不足以自行啦,不是只有靠下法律就有辦法,歷史的問題我都經歷過,我也都了解啦"},{"start":19421.835,"end":19443.95,"text":"但是真的不是說法律這樣沒有我想跟署長確認一下署長你現在如果要兩層級的處理方法你第一個層級是什麼誰來訂這些審查表就等等等等你第一個層級是什麼然後再來你打算是怎麼做法不然我現在真的連架構我都跟其他委員有不同的意見"},{"start":19445.35,"end":19464.241,"text":"這樣就是說我再把行政院的版本說明一下然後可能的調整就第一個呢它的第一款任務就是這個目的外利用之管理及監督政策法令擬定之建議意思就是說我們不是後面會有一些執法嗎這個授權法規嗎會在這裡來做諮詢那麼聽從聽這個製議會的建議那最後還是要行政機關去發布嘛所以這是第一個"},{"start":19472.526,"end":19493.181,"text":"那第二個呢是這個安全維護措施監督防護之諮詢如果說要把考核放進去也OK就變成是這些安全維護措施監督防護之諮詢及考核這個我覺得是可以就是他實際上去由執議會的委員去給他考核看看這個安全防護措施做得好不好"},{"start":19493.621,"end":19517.315,"text":"那第三個就是他的這個目的外利用資料的爭議的處理這個也有很大的實質的功能就是在審查那邊不予許可或者是要硬叫人家這個不能這麼多資料我們就只給你這麼多筆他有爭議或者是外部有爭議對於我們這個核准的認為過於寬鬆那就到這裡來處理"},{"start":19520.217,"end":19548.539,"text":"那個是第三個第四個在處理那個停止我們後面的條文有要停止這個利用或者是額外不准停止利用那這可能在這裡做正義的處理大概是在這裡那第五個就是協助我們做協助這個主管機關對特定外利用還有管理他因為有一些委託辦理的輔導還有這個評估跟監督大概是這樣所以"},{"start":19549.58,"end":19564.416,"text":"都說自己的條文而已所以我現在就是在在對應您的第四條的條文裡面的第一款的考核剛剛就是就是用就是第二款我剛剛提到第二款"},{"start":19566.537,"end":19593.725,"text":"諮詢及考核那就可以符合您說的那一些那個都是屬於安全維護措施監督防護諮詢及考核可以符合您的第一款的作用第二款那個是在個案審查的部分所以那個應該是放到審查會去做那第三個剛剛我提到那個跟第二款已經含納進去了那另外第七款你的第七款那個都是個案審查"},{"start":19594.485,"end":19613.79,"text":"第八款那個也都是個案第八款那個有個案審查那個就是要那個不許停止不許停止不許停止就要看後面那個有沒有審查第八款那個到後面那個條文上之前有保留是不是最後再處理"},{"start":19614.45,"end":19629.196,"text":"風險管理那個是個案我根本不承認你一定有個標準任何做標準你也知道我們信用是怎麼分分A第一級第二級A2B的對不對有沒有重大突破還是類似才是比現有的好的他有個基本的東西我從來都認為他是個案一個標準"},{"start":19632.037,"end":19654.545,"text":"本來那個標準就是要去訂好你剛剛講一直說那是個案馬上就把他下降到讓委員們那我也不知道你後來怎麼聘誰去做決定你都沒辦法根本沒有人照那個規矩去做現在法定的那個整個核准的過程沒有人照那個規矩做啊都看問你剩多少錢啊沒有錢我們就把他降級啊就是這樣不是因為我看到他們整個"},{"start":19655.465,"end":19671.103,"text":"不同啦你对那个什么新药的审查你很熟悉啦但是这个是研究计划的申请啦用的这个资料不一样你讲的那个概念可能是这个共理会议或是新药给的"},{"start":19671.744,"end":19677.445,"text":"會議的審查的重點不一樣不是一兩年的問題也不是大不大案子因為是兩種的要管理的審查的內容不一樣的問題啦現在是說這個目的外利用那些資料的風險管理很重要嘛那執意會在第一款就有講了目的外利用的管理管理當然就包含風險管理啊他就已經涵蓋在這裡面了啦"},{"start":19701.591,"end":19725.461,"text":"所以就是說我還是回到我之前一再跟你講的你這九款或你這八款那實質上你覺得哪裡我們講的沒有放進去你講的我們沒有放進去或是哪裡你覺得還不夠好的是不是這樣子你具體的來這樣子討論那你先同意兩層架構再來說這樣子"},{"start":19727.446,"end":19739.599,"text":"然後我們才能討論說那你哪裏審查會裏面哪裏不好那製衣會裏面哪裏不夠你的條件還要增加什麼這樣才有辦法討論如果沒有就都沒辦法討論你要運機械商也是一樣要回到這個層次來討論"},{"start":19746.912,"end":19766.939,"text":"署長我還是要請你把這個1到9你剛剛念了你自己的版本你剛剛還是在念你自己的版本這個1到你講哪個是多餘的哪個是不需要的你先把它弄清楚而且我們兩個解讀不一樣你認為很個案的東西我認為是很原則我們兩個的解讀也都不一樣"},{"start":19768.222,"end":19782.392,"text":"第一款您的條文的第一款那個我剛剛已經提到我們可以在行政院版本的第二款這裡放到諮詢及考核你要的是那個考核嘛所以就放進來了"},{"start":19783.453,"end":19809.926,"text":"那麼第二個呢你那個資料的風險等級管理及審查制度因為我們的資料剛剛提到它就是以最小揭露適當性原則那個是在我們在後面有授權法規啦第11條有個授權法規就是那個資料的類型範圍等等我們會訂出一個原則譬如說我們現在它如果你是少於30筆以下的我們是不提供的"},{"start":19810.806,"end":19833.124,"text":"就是你申请的这个研究抓出来的条件如果是少于30笔这很容易被identify是哪一个我们是不提供这个利用那你过多的我们也不提供因为我们就要抽样不需要那么多样本数我们也不会提供所以那个都是属于叫做资料风险的管理"},{"start":19834.506,"end":19842.675,"text":"這個都是訂在後面的執法規訂在這個後面的執法規就會送到執議會的第一款我們行政院版本的第一款來討論"},{"start":19845.23,"end":19863.428,"text":"他後面執行的時候 個案審查的時候是在那個審查會去按照這個規範 這個執法規去做審查好 那陳委員你也可以同意第一 你的第一款就是放到他的第二款裡面納入加上考核"},{"start":19864.52,"end":19869.426,"text":"那你的第二款我剛剛聽署長這樣子講署長這樣子講我覺得啦應該可以在審查會裡面納入審查會的應遵循第11條的授權辦法"},{"start":19879.349,"end":19898.846,"text":"不是在審查會裡面審查的辦法或原則應該要定出這個最小揭露適當性原則那就已經放進去了其實有一個我倒覺得大家你在解釋的過程我覺得我們整部法律可能沒有討論到的這個沒有討論到的就是爭議啟動的機制"},{"start":19904.591,"end":19915.181,"text":"因為知議會是要處理爭議的處理可是審查會那邊或許會有些爭議的產生那爭議你說也要接受"},{"start":19916.587,"end":19922.874,"text":"就是像公民訴訟那種概念有一些爭議是兩兆雙方沒爭議但我人民自己看了不爽我覺得你們兩兆雙方合謀然後濫權擴權就要給出我們的資料那有可能公民認為說不行我要"},{"start":19936.249,"end":19954.807,"text":"我要提起爭議處理不行的話我再打行政訴訟類似這樣子那這啟動爭議的機制我們裡面好像整部法都沒有了第五條看第五條這個執議會的運作辦法在第五條的授權法規第五條第三項"},{"start":19956.628,"end":19960.13,"text":"但是我們都沒有談到所謂的爭議啟動的機制爭議啟動的機制我們就授權"},{"start":19973.272,"end":19991.432,"text":"因為他的任務第四條的委員會的其他相關事項的辦法你的字眼叫做其他相關事項的辦法就是第五條的授權法規要來處理現行的第四條的這些任務"},{"start":19993.727,"end":20003.994,"text":"對啦 但第四條的任務有爭議處理所以就會在後面那個授權辦法來定本來我是想說資議會的最後一項資議會委員的名額什麼什麼的然後最後一項就是決議與議事運作及爭議處理頓號爭議處理及其他相關事項就是把爭議處理也放進去這樣子"},{"start":20021.903,"end":20034.766,"text":"因為就覺得說爭議啟動的機制好像沒有被討論到但是你上面有講其他相關辦法的確是可以涵蓋但如果要再寫清楚一點就是爭議處理寫上去這樣子"},{"start":20041.658,"end":20053.205,"text":"這樣陳委員第二款,你的第二款就改過了第七款、第八款放到因為你審查會裡面也是放的你剛才說的第十一條那把它的第七款、第八款就直接納入進去這樣子啊可以嗎因為如果是授權的,授權的他沒有看到"},{"start":20068.857,"end":20091.596,"text":"只有第7款就是趙志偉的第7款我們可以放到11條的授權法規可是那個第8款還要再討論因為第8款是對應陳昭志委員的後面的第19條的那個不許停止利用之審查所以那個可能要等後面那個確定之後才會知道這個要放在哪裡"},{"start":20094.973,"end":20117.285,"text":"那是對應陳昭智委員有一個不許停止健保目的外利用的審查他的條文裡面有這個審查所以他才會有第八款這個任務在所以那個要看後面那個到底有沒有要有審因為剛剛林委員又認為說這個國安 陳委員你忘記了"},{"start":20121.427,"end":20141.724,"text":"所以不能當家審查我剛才在說那個霸王條款的時候我就有說說不可以在你國家你所有國家緊急危難啊人民生命危險啊然後就直接就啟動那他不是說要訂一個那個內部一個審查的機制有給審查會去講我說那不行那機制不行嘛那你這一款就是我講的那一個問題嘛你這一款跟我講的問題是一致的嘛那我一直講說我們到那個時候再來改"},{"start":20149.37,"end":20168.126,"text":"那那個改的方法我還是個人傾向於說交給各提出這個需求的政府機關來法律明文規定要在他們的法律遵循法律保留原則寫出來那我們這邊就遵循了這樣子"},{"start":20169.428,"end":20180.003,"text":"這樣你聽到沒有 如果這樣會贏的話這裡的第八款就跟那個兩件問題是一模一樣的而且解決的方法也應該是放到八碗條款第22條還是第幾條那個時候再來討論19條再一起來討論"},{"start":20185.231,"end":20186.713,"text":"所以你不用放在這個執議會因為這個改革的風險不是在執議會還是你的審議會會層級來解決一個國安的問題你一個執議會這幾個人只是一個執議會或是你的審查會扛不住這個壓力的啦"},{"start":20200.951,"end":20223.713,"text":"也不能去處理你要不要許可因為國家安全的問題你一個審議會你可以扛得住嗎我覺得這層級也太假了所以我們是不是同意這條合併我們剛才討論那麼久包括我個人的意見這麼多的那一條合併在一起處理你的第八款應該是不能放了"},{"start":20232.099,"end":20247.989,"text":"我們加那個考核 那個很重要那個很重要 考核 還有監督考核監督考核第七款就放到後面那個審查會審查會的時候會有你審查會的那個成員等等"},{"start":20249.31,"end":20271.074,"text":"後面會明定會明定會明定那你這裡還是要叫執議會嗎這邊還是執議會才不會混搖才不會混搖但是我是要讓你執議這兩年怕死啊怕死啊不會啦不會怕死啦這恰到很清楚了我主席包括食藥署執議會都被你推翻啊都被人家推翻掉啊你的東西都不算數啊那個推翻的沒理由喔"},{"start":20271.454,"end":20298.952,"text":"沒有跟國民報告因為您在意的是那個第一個所有的管理的一些政策法令即使是有這個審查會他也不代表他所做出的決定就不可以推翻因為這些法令都還要經過預告公眾的平息最後才會有主管機關發布所以也不是這個執議會就說了算也不是即使他是審議會他是怕執議會說了不算他是怕這樣一直都說了不算"},{"start":20301.834,"end":20329.093,"text":"只是自议会说了不算这个说了也可能不算因为他还要经过公共政策的平息对啊没有错我们要尊重立法程序因为这个时代也的确是可能这边决定了那立委或者是审议会订出来的条文那他拿出去给大家看然后很多团体人民都有意见也要改到立法院来也会改所以的确也不是只有审议会的人说了就算了"},{"start":20330.929,"end":20355.449,"text":"這有很多層次 但也有相對的很多的配套層次可以問責啦其實最大是在換年還在月啦陳委員可以嗎可以啦以前直接推翻我們執議會也包括立法委員啦個人的推翻不行啦 現在執議會不能夠啦好 這一條我們已經投入很久了是不是看一下這個條文的"},{"start":20358.031,"end":20385.371,"text":"跟辛苦沒有關係啦因為都還是落在那個範疇現在看條文裡面的文字到底能不能接受我們就盡快來處理就這樣而已嘛好不好那個兩個層次要是真的兩個層次好啦要真的啦好啦主席他說可以那我們第四條就照這個院版的文字修正後通過修正通過什麼問題"},{"start":20389.256,"end":20405.008,"text":"對啊,我就是要講院版的文字修正通過啊是什麼問題啊好,那我們接下來招募行政院版本的提案修正通過啦,接下來然後保留第五條"},{"start":20408.891,"end":20432.763,"text":"第五條在序明的是我的知義會的委員若干人然後是由醫事公共衛生法律與自通安全的專家學者人權團體等等這些院板的部分呢淑芬委員裡面有特別提到我們原來院板是沒有加病友團體啦那還有王正旭委員也希望加病友團體"},{"start":20434.665,"end":20449.565,"text":"那淑芬委員有特別述明說我除了政府機關以外的專家學者社會公正人士裡面代表要各自掃兩人這是淑芬委員裡面的版本特別要強調各自掃兩人"},{"start":20450.711,"end":20451.672,"text":"是 是"},{"start":20470.828,"end":20478.332,"text":"知議會委員知名而主席產生方式會議之召集出席決議與議事運作頓耗爭議處理及其他相關事項之辦法"},{"start":20505.092,"end":20532.157,"text":"議事運作頓好爭議處理立法說明來我們是不是要講爭議處理的話我們需要訂出的我我說類似公民訴訟那個概念叫什麼名字就是說提起爭議的主體也應該可以是非申請人以外的公民"},{"start":20534.505,"end":20559.491,"text":"你懂我的意思嗎提起爭議處理的我懂了因為我講完我也有一點覺得我是建議說是不是把那個寫在說明欄對啦我講的是說明欄因為你一開始說明那個你用的字眼是什麼我有點忘記了"},{"start":20561.141,"end":20585.243,"text":"就提起生意處理的可以是誰好沒關係私底下再講好了請教示委員我想我要請教那個如果這個資義委員會的那個趙吉仁署長趙吉仁我個人反對由機關代表擔任"},{"start":20587.606,"end":20610.908,"text":"所以我在我自己的修正動議案裡面我有提到審議會 當然我過去用審議會主任委員不得由機關代表來擔任那我自己也加了一個部分是就是某一些團體包括這個就是要不得少於並有加修公園的人權代表專家學人數不得少於四分之三"},{"start":20614.332,"end":20619.435,"text":"這個組成的部分請你參考一下修正動議看有沒有可以配合的這裡補充說明"},{"start":20627.915,"end":20654.775,"text":"操縮委員的版本是我們院版是寫二分之一不得少於委員總數二分之一操縮委員是把它改成四分之三另外呢他又多委員又多增加了一個同一檔級委員不得多超過委員總數三分之一現在就是我們原來的院版是二分之一那現在那個操縮委員要修正為四分之三主任委員"},{"start":20656.946,"end":20661.353,"text":"還有就是審議會的主任委員不得由機關代表擔任"},{"start":20664.858,"end":20683.886,"text":"然後那個黨籍黨籍的那個委員不得超過這個行政機關是比較建議這不要寫啦就是我們橫豬所有的那個審查的我們過去也看到NCC啦公平交易委員會他們是有這一條啦那個委員提供資料說公平交易委員會還有他們是一個獨立的"},{"start":20690.769,"end":20712.287,"text":"主持機構那我們這個只是一個任務編組的諮詢單位我剛開始就是擔心任務編組本來我是希望有一個獨立的機構那大家說自愛難行所以我是一致的精神去把這個寫出來就用那樣的想法然後本來是希望是審議就是他的任務大概由他來主導"},{"start":20717.383,"end":20727.224,"text":"那你能接受第一個主任委員不管你叫什麼名字叫召集員或是主委不由機關代表擔任嗎署長你可以嗎"},{"start":20729.833,"end":20748.086,"text":"那個跟委員說明一下因為現在我們本來只是說專家學者人數不少於二分之一所以不得少於二分之一是因為專家學者要多一點的意思"},{"start":20748.846,"end":20765.937,"text":"那現在是把它變成專家學者加人權團體代表加社會公正人士跟病友團體代表不得少於委員總數3%也不是不行那意思就是剩下1%就是政府機關代表啦"},{"start":20767.318,"end":20780.016,"text":"概念是這樣啦所以也沒問題要用把這個提高也沒問題這個也不是說不行就是反正就是政府機關就是少於四分之一啦政府機關代表因為都包啊啦"},{"start":20780.885,"end":20804.108,"text":"等於大家都包起來 包起來之後四分之三啦這個我們大概我們實務執行上大概也是這樣啦所以這個要這樣我們是覺得是也可以接受啦那但是也不要寫說召集人不得由政府計劃這樣好像很貶義啦但是可以說召集人由"},{"start":20805.669,"end":20821.934,"text":"專家學者或民間代表人士出任是可以的啊對啊可以就是說你的召集人要有民間這個非政府機關代表認知也可以因為前面是這樣嘛有一個叫政府機關代表嘛"},{"start":20822.754,"end":20843.491,"text":"所以只是說不要這個製議會的主席就不要由非政府機關的代表來認知這個我們是可以討論不過最後那個同一黨籍委員不得多過委員總數三分之一"},{"start":20844.412,"end":20859.701,"text":"我們是認為是不要在這裡寫什麼黨籍不黨籍這個是人權的問題每一個人我們不要去談這個黨籍但是民意代表不要擔任我覺得是現在的趨勢"},{"start":20861.183,"end":20875.326,"text":"就是民意代表不要來擔任這個的這個市議會的委員但是不要去討論這個什麼黨籍委員的人數這個是我們是從前面他的代表性"},{"start":20878.466,"end":20899.973,"text":"對 我也同意行政經理講的難道我覺得擔任這個專家學者我要先被你調查我的黨籍身份嗎這有到底 這個本來沒有啦 憲法有結黨怎麼說 結社自由對啊 那怎麼會還是要我要先然後讓你調查之後那我才可以參與你不可以參與你我覺得第一次看到這樣的體力耶"},{"start":20900.353,"end":20927.893,"text":"陳委員我告訴你這條結社我知道這條結社他騙你你要問你有沒有入黨你要說然後他就騙你騙你以後你出一個公文說請問一下這個人有沒有你們國民黨黨籍有沒有民進黨黨籍有沒有民眾黨黨籍民進黨說我沒有回答你的義務國民黨說這個我查不出來你能怎麼樣你也不能怎麼樣所以這結社啦這真的結社啦"},{"start":20930.494,"end":20952.802,"text":"嚇出來你沒辦法給他怎麼樣他給你偽造文書給你騙你說我依從法辦為什麼我不想承認我是哪一個政黨依從法辦這也不對啊再來的憲法人民有結社自由我參加政黨是我的自由因為我參加政黨所以我不能夠擔任委員這個也不對啊所以這個東西"},{"start":20954.643,"end":20971.889,"text":"五黨籍算不算一黨 大家都五黨籍你們五黨籍有超過三分之一耶五黨籍算不算一黨這個五黨聯盟也很可怕 五黨聯盟也有黨團曾經有過所以說這條接下來也會來 我自己說這條那沒辦法執行了 這種法律聽出來是無法執行的不是說不好啦 是無法執行的啦"},{"start":20983.635,"end":20999.386,"text":"那個雖然這兩件事也要處理,第一個就剛剛講那個黨籍那個是召集人那個叫主席主席、召集人、主委都一樣因為他是處理在審議會的這個階段,所以他是等一下我們會處理到審議會"},{"start":21004.946,"end":21021.095,"text":"他現在是針對執議會執議會 執議會 執議會 主席我知道啦 他的條文是講審議會啦所以現在你要請教陳昭之委是審議跟執議他都不得有機關代表來擔任主委 召集人 主席是不是啦你要問我清楚啦我要提醒你這件事情"},{"start":21023.597,"end":21046.116,"text":"我剛開始是一個level嘛所以是我是一致性就是我要他有獨立性啦那機關代表難免就是就是會礙於那個機關的限制嘛你不然你真的就是要很超然的做這件事情啊帶領討論主席會帶風向的啦主席完全帶風向啦大家都知道共理會都這樣要過不過都主席帶風向啊"},{"start":21052.234,"end":21061.731,"text":"這個陳委員請你也思考清楚啦這個有時候不是機關代表但是他去當主席還是機關的代表來聘他來當主席召集人"},{"start":21063.96,"end":21087.079,"text":"因為他也很多專家學者等等啦陳委員我告訴你因為行政權就是行政權他的委員也他拼的他去拼的他來做你覺得說叫他機關不要當召集人專家學者做召集人就不會出問題嗎就不會偏袒嗎就不會跟行政掛鉤嗎其實"},{"start":21091.147,"end":21109.683,"text":"沒辦法啦 我的意思是說真的太過分了 擅權了 擴權了 或爛權了其實還有政治責任可以問責所以大家可以接受公平的行政權就是一定的空間你真的好像一直要跟人家搶 搶到完全沒辦法這樣讓他一組合彈性就沒有 這個真的不是辦法"},{"start":21115.708,"end":21118.188,"text":"所以我們這裡定的範圍要適當就是你現在很想制衡行政權你現在一直說行政權很爛權但是那就是他的權利啊你立法權要定到哪裡不愉悅了這個"},{"start":21141.753,"end":21149.606,"text":"我們現在政治氛圍就是立法權逾越了行政權你的行政又爛權所以這個東西真的是"},{"start":21156.338,"end":21171.482,"text":"不是在這裡法律定的出來你講的這個問題是政治問題了啦都不是法律上可以明定的出來可以解決的很多政治問題社會問題都不是法律可以解決的啦"},{"start":21174.191,"end":21196.901,"text":"處長有困難嗎主委不要有機關代表有困難嗎跟委員報告我們在這個行政院版本的第三項他有一個主席產生方式等等的辦法那麼我們還是得行法治程序也會預告然後這個訂完之後也要送立法院這個被查的啦所以我們還是覺得"},{"start":21198.101,"end":21212.336,"text":"當然這個委員有您的經驗啦所以會認為好像如果是機關代表就會比較其實要跟委員報告機關代表他所受的約束比民間委員所受的約束更多"},{"start":21213.557,"end":21236.166,"text":"他除了一般的法律規定還有一些公務員相關需要遵守的所以這個是不是讓他保留彈性主席產生方式我們在授權辦法裡面會定出來他有約束他權力也是更大他兩邊都你們約束是一件事情他權力更大我就告訴你主席就是要帶風向"},{"start":21237.898,"end":21244.316,"text":"主席可以主導議程也可以更動議程他決定這個案件先處理主席都可以做"},{"start":21245.762,"end":21272.364,"text":"那如果這樣的話專項學者也可以做啊如果一直在講帶風向因為我覺得今天可能也要讓我覺得他們就像剛剛主任委員講的這行政權是不是讓他有些談心多而且我很少看到說因為第一個尤其是資議會那邊事實上有很多是政策的擬定有些相關的東西可能要對於這一個東西更瞭解的人才可以帶討論那主席就是一個"},{"start":21274.11,"end":21294.582,"text":"就像今天我不知道那有覺得我們的劉建國委員在帶風向還幹嘛嗎不是嘛就是今天就是討論嘛討論的時候大家你看都可以表示意見嘛那一樣啦民主程序就是這樣子那他比較了解整個的內容的時候他可以帶著大家討論他會相對比較熟悉如果你一直在講帶風向的話那我就不知道那專家學者不會帶風向嗎以上"},{"start":21298.338,"end":21300.319,"text":"你講的問題我們都經歷過我們都罵過但真的不是透過這一種方式可以解決的"},{"start":21322.031,"end":21349.793,"text":"好 請問秩序委員好 多謝 多謝召委主席剛剛在講的是第五條嘛所以我想審議會 質疑會應該還是以質疑會的名稱先確認釐清一下那剛剛所討論的這個人數啦或者是它的這個總數的百分比看是不是在要依照原本還是依照召諸委員所希望能夠調整的地方"},{"start":21350.353,"end":21363.499,"text":"那我覺得主席的這個主任委員或主席等是不是要寫不得由機關代表擔任我不知道其他這些會議上面有沒有類似的這種規範說明"},{"start":21365.66,"end":21392.363,"text":"如果沒有的話我們是不是盡量還是跟其他的一致性高比較好不然我們為了一個這個條例然後又訂了一個這種比較特殊的方式可能感覺起來就體力上不是那麼適合那我們也明白這個招數委員所擔心的可是我們如果看那個組成裡面如果有至少二分之一至少四分之三等等的這種主席的產生方式事實上那就是一個民主機制嘛"},{"start":21393.204,"end":21411.564,"text":"就是委員裡面可以用他所制定的方式制定的辦法來讓主席的產生而不是由誰來指定所以我覺得我們在法條內容裡面如果讓他比較符合民主機制的話可以解決很多不一樣的想法這是以上的意見"},{"start":21418.447,"end":21440.099,"text":"蘇秉 因為我可不可以請你署長 因為現在是討論到資議的這個範疇嘛如果趙志偉這樣的一個堅持 那可能等一下見證到省議會的那一個主席還是趙志偉還是會有這樣的狀況所以我是想說這個要講清楚一下 好 謝謝跟恩委員會報 剛剛王委員有點出這個條文的重點第一個就是代表"},{"start":21440.959,"end":21466.595,"text":"那代表我們加入那個這個病人團體的代表這個我們把他修正進去啊每一類人的勾個至少兩人這個也OK然後除了那個政府機關代表之外其他的人合起來不得少於四分之三這個我們也可以這個都可以執行這個都OK啊就是那個黨籍的那個不要那至於說審議會的"},{"start":21469.497,"end":21484.665,"text":"主席啦我們還是認為說按照原來的主席方式去寫因為這裡去寫說不得由機關代表擔任我很擔心這個立法說明要怎麼寫為何機關代表不得擔任這個主席"},{"start":21491.966,"end":21516.496,"text":"陳委員 對啦 陳委員 我跟你講你寫這樣下去也不會改革的專家學者也是政府提名的啦他也是 如果叫你說會帶風向 他也提名我他啦所以你這樣寫下去專家學者要叫到一個都是政府提名的 都是友好人士 也是一樣啦那我的意思是說 這樣寫上去真的是不會改革你要說的那些問題啦"},{"start":21519.137,"end":21526.32,"text":"來一個半鐘頭我們先休五分鐘好不好讓陳委員也沉澱一下也請行政機關再跟陳委員溝通一下謝謝"},{"start":21543.122,"end":21550.95,"text":"謝謝您的收看"},{"start":21899.451,"end":21909.64,"text":"好我們繼續開會所以呃針對這條文是不是再再顯示出來來大家請各位看一下看這樣可不可以好第五條"},{"start":21933.789,"end":21935.009,"text":"有話就直接拿掉"},{"start":21959.161,"end":21985.455,"text":"因為你前面有各兩人後面又有不得少於四分之三這樣子會不會排擠你看喔醫事你看喔醫事兩個公共衛生兩個法律兩個資通安全兩個人權至少兩個病友兩個社會公正人士兩個然後專家學者"},{"start":21988.141,"end":22004.457,"text":"還有跟委員報告我算給大家聽算得出來不會對因為前面的專家學者包含了四種專家學者一個是醫事一個是公共衛生還有法律跟資通所以這個專家學者一眾"},{"start":22005.017,"end":22028.291,"text":"有四種如果各兩人的話就八個然後後面再加上人權跟病友還有社會公正人士這三類這樣就六個那這樣子就是四分之一的官方官方代表表四分之一就對了對對對所以沒問題好那各位委員這針對請教文字還有意見嗎沒有看一下"},{"start":22042.065,"end":22066.315,"text":"哪一個斗點?各二分之一哪有二分之一?至少兩人啦,不是二分之一啦,你看不對吧?各至少兩人,不是二分之一啦"},{"start":22075.63,"end":22100.101,"text":"至少兩年那個鬥艇要不要拿掉啦至少兩年那個鬥艇要不要拿掉好 這樣可以齁好"},{"start":22106.938,"end":22109.78,"text":"請問人權及病友是兩個人權團體跟病友團體我只要了解就好"},{"start":22139.073,"end":22153.385,"text":"好,那我們第五條就以願版的再修正後通過,可以吧?好,謝謝。那接下來處理保留條文第六條請表示意見"},{"start":22157.557,"end":22171.349,"text":"第六條在說明主管機關跟保險人應該要備制電腦自通服務必要的設施然後要建置健保資料的相關資料庫並指定專責單位專人管理"},{"start":22172.43,"end":22198.548,"text":"第二項在續名說主管機關建置是指衛福部建置前項資料庫所需的資料是由保險人把該等資料假名化之後傳輸給主管機關那這個有關於前項所指的假名化的程序作業方式我們會授權在另外訂定辦法那最後一項會主管機關要定期或不定期的考核第一項資料庫的管理及運用"},{"start":22199.389,"end":22221.325,"text":"那這裡呢是淑芬委員的版本裡面有特別在加注說主管機關應該指派副首長兼任健保資料的保護長負責前項考核與資料保護的相關事務那麼主管機關不得因為健保資料保護長及健保資料保護集合人員"},{"start":22226.875,"end":22244.646,"text":"那行政機關這邊補充說明就是我們在那個不管是未來未來會通過的個人資料保護法裡面也有明定要個人資料的保護障那麼在自通安全管理法裡面也有明定要設置資安障"},{"start":22245.166,"end":22263.158,"text":"在衛福部 衛福部或者是健保署本身我們裡面都 這些單位都本身就要設立資安的資安長還有個人資料的保護長那為了因應這個外部集合為了因應外部集合 他們每年都會來做集合"},{"start":22263.979,"end":22280.54,"text":"那麼主管機關本身跟健保署本身內部也會去做集合比如說我們現在主管機關的部分因應資安考核每年來的話我們的衛福部會每半年來針對資安的部分去做內部的集合"},{"start":22281.181,"end":22308.827,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以再跟委員溝通就是我們回歸原來那個機制那本來我們就有內積的機制那之前淑芬委員的確有擔心說那個是外積那我們本身沒有內積實務作業上目前其實我們資訊的部分是有做內積的作業的以上說明因為我們第一項就是講說要專責單位及專人管理這個專人是誰啊"},{"start":22313.917,"end":22332.401,"text":"專人我們會有兩個一個是主管機關衛福部一個是健保署保險人健保署所以這兩個他們分別都要指定專責的單位跟專人管理對啊那就是需要專責和專人所以我們才會想說那這個專責就是保護長那指定保護長他負責做這個否則這個會不會專責和專人到時候就是"},{"start":22342.643,"end":22365.794,"text":"變成約聘僱的或者是說流動性高的人經常在那裡輪什麼的所以才會想到這種事因為這個未來就是在執行上是這樣一個是在健保署裡面有一個資料運作中心一個是在署部裡面有一個資料的那個運作中心他都有一個專責單位在處理"},{"start":22367.595,"end":22387.301,"text":"所以如果是在部裡面呢它就是統計處在處理所以這裡所謂的專責單位其實就是我們的統計處它就有統計處的這些專人就不要兼職的是專門在處理這些事情的那在健保署裡面也是一樣我們也是在有我們健保署裡面的一個組醫管組在處理還有資訊組會一起協助所以這個指的是這個啦"},{"start":22393.765,"end":22412.924,"text":"所以因為不論是在健保署也好在衛福部也好都已經有資安長所以這些資料庫本來就是資安長的責任了所以就不需要再訂定你們的資安長都是通常都有副首長都是副首長那這同一師啊同一個醫師啊"},{"start":22414.464,"end":22434.753,"text":"對阿,那就是一定有阿,真的就有阿這樣你們就由資安長,就由這個那個叫因為你們第一項,你們第一項明定上去因為我們擔心的就是說因為人事行政上沒有一個職務叫做專門管理這個事情的吧你們編制有這種嗎?沒有阿"},{"start":22437.492,"end":22465.204,"text":"你們都是兼的啦你們沒有專任的啦你哪有專任負責在做治安的沒有啊我關資訊處啊關的治安單位的話就是我們的資訊組跟資訊處啊然後您的那個新增的是說要有一個副首長去做什麼保護嘛其實他不是他就是治安長對就是治安長所以部裡面有治安長署裡面也有治安長"},{"start":22466.204,"end":22490.574,"text":"這都是按照自通安全管理法來的所以我想請問一下你現在在多編這兩個人對於你本來的組織跟人事會有什麼變化嗎不是他會有跌床架屋因為本來就有這個是根據自通安全管理法裡面就已經有明定要設定治安長了現在都是副首長在做治安長"},{"start":22494.383,"end":22512.146,"text":"好 那各位同仁第六條就照院版來通過好 謝謝第六條就照行政院版本來通過接下來處理保留第七條條文請行政機關先做說明"},{"start":22513.729,"end":22513.869,"text":"第七條"},{"start":22543.18,"end":22569.849,"text":"那這個部分呢在招資委員的版本裡面他是把這一條刪掉啦他是把這一條刪掉對這個陳委員應該因為當時可能是你那些火條哨的連動啦好對不對你陳委員想要把它刪掉現在對好各位同仁應該沒有意見啦好來請說"},{"start":22573.26,"end":22598.414,"text":"第七條對好那各位針對第七條沒有意見那我們就照院版的版本來通過好 謝謝我一直在想說我們哪一條是說違反規定要處分就是這一條嘛在後面的罰則裡面"},{"start":22600.529,"end":22627.907,"text":"有沒有納入到管理這一項的這一條的機構因為你們委託的機構算是你們的資科中心算是這個裡面嗎資科中心算是這個裡面嗎資科中心跟健保署他們是現行那這個是委託專業機構或法人辦理對等於是說現行是資科中心跟健保署在做我們記得好像是說不允許不是嗎"},{"start":22629.266,"end":22650.14,"text":"我們上一次討論是說這一個狀況不被允許喔妳怎麼都沒有跟我們上次提出來說啊妳要我們重新提醒的上一次說明是我自己補充說明就是後面是預留未來的可能性啦也就是說當我資格中心跟健保署因為我們上次已經有共識了啦"},{"start":22651.843,"end":22674.357,"text":"就是不要委託專業機構或法人因為這麼慎重的事情還涉及到刑責的事情然後你委託外面的機構然後委託外面的機構的人那些人阿嬤阿狗來源不明公務人員都無法管了約聘戶都無法管了你要委託外面的機構只為了只為了你們忘了只為了從高雄台中來查資料的人方便"},{"start":22675.197,"end":22701.341,"text":"然後我們就講高雄到台中來這裡查資料坐高鐵才一個半小時而已不要開這個門啦省去了你為了一點點方便然後把整個風險擴大成數百倍數千倍數萬倍好到為之到為之就好後面都不要委託到為之健保資料之特定目的外利用及管理有主管機關及保險人為之高家"},{"start":22713.308,"end":22730.703,"text":"可以齁?這樣可以齁?好第一條就是留前面這些文字啦齁看各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有我們就照驗版的第一條條文的草案來修正或通過好謝謝"},{"start":22732.475,"end":22754.528,"text":"接下來我們處理保留的第八條我這邊提醒行政單位,剛剛主席討論的時候有相關的立法說明要再補強的在我們審查的前,第二輪審查的前要陸續提出來好不好?時間拖過了,但是你又不記"},{"start":22763.973,"end":22782.608,"text":"好第八條請說明第八條是院版是續明說申請特定目的外利用是因應提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利促進學術研究發展及提供政府機關構及行政法案執行法定職務為目的為限那麼"},{"start":22785.157,"end":22811.852,"text":"預警委員的版本裡面呢要增加第二項前項申請不得為營利使用那麼還有招資委員的版本這裡是他更加序名說我申請這個目的外的藥物符合下列的要件那羅列了五項的要件去說明說什麼是重大公共利益這樣子那第一點他寫的是用於公共衛生及疾病防治相關之研究與規劃"},{"start":22813.813,"end":22839.465,"text":"2.用於健保制度或醫療服務之品質評估風險監控及政策發展3.用於具公益性之學術研究4.用於政府機關或行政法人依法定職責之統計規劃監督評估或執行業務之需要5.其他經資料利用監督機制認定符合"},{"start":22840.345,"end":22857.773,"text":"工藝並無法以其他資料替代之目的那麼又多增加了一項是前項是健保資料利用不得為商業利用不得進行個人在識別行為也不得與其他資料結合而置有在識別之餘"},{"start":22859.721,"end":22876.878,"text":"那行政機關如果針對的意見是針對趙志偉他明定的這部分因為我們建議啦如果要寫進來是不是那個無其他一開始應符合下列要件並限於具有重大公共利益"},{"start":22877.498,"end":22904.04,"text":"後面那個頓號無其他替代資料可利用之情形是不是這個可以我們已經討論說三調三調就限於具有重大公共利益逗點使得為之然後第一個呢就保留用於公共衛生或疾病防治相關之研究與規劃第二個也保留就是也維持這樣的文字"},{"start":22905.329,"end":22916.097,"text":"第三款用於具有公益性的學術研究是否可以把公益性拿掉因為我們就是用在學術研究第四個就是維持"},{"start":22922.122,"end":22945.558,"text":"文字第五款部分我們是希望可以把它刪除第五款就不用特別去寫然後最後一項就是說不得為商業利用因為我這裡寫的公共利益都已經寫清楚了所以是不是這一款不得再進行個人識別這項是不是也整個刪除以上說明剛剛我們的溝通是如你所說的是這樣子"},{"start":22950.375,"end":22977.04,"text":"好來請李月琴委員那個我的那一項就前項申請不得為盈利使用會衝進去吧所以我問他們到底就是月琴委員裡面所提的前項申請不得為盈利使用那如果照招資委員裡面的1234裡面就是只有那些他所提的為了做研究規劃然後用於健保制度"},{"start":22978.824,"end":23005.869,"text":"然後這裡面就沒有提到那個學術研究不見得一定後邊就不可能會有因為為什麼還是要去再三強調因為那個目的性如果他真的事實上產學合作的時候雖然也是學術研究可是他如果事實上是受制於藥廠或者說跟他有一個合作那我認為還是要去明清楚這個那個後邊討論又不太一樣所以我覺得這邊還是把講清楚"},{"start":23017.11,"end":23029.149,"text":"來 請問資訊委員謝謝 現在在討論這個第八條就是第一項裡面就包括原來的字以外我們一個修正東西就是在"},{"start":23031.653,"end":23057.078,"text":"倒數第二行追加說在執行法定職務與增加公共利益之目的為限因為如果前面相關的字眼沒有含括進來的話直接採用這個教職委員擔心他的這個文字表述上會有一些缺漏那與增加公共利益這樣放進來的話會相對完整"},{"start":23057.778,"end":23079.093,"text":"至於公共利益包括哪一些像是就是剛剛大家有討論到在委員所提供的這些各款這樣的話期待是能夠修正的更為完整而且具體的來體現我們在第八條所要呈現的這種目的利用的這個最佳的體現的方式這個請大家再做參考給我們一點時間看一下"},{"start":23085.703,"end":23110.836,"text":"那個行政機關在補充就是因為剛剛有提到重大公共利益在其他的我國內的相關法規其實沒有去明定重大公共利益所以是不是我們就是應符合下列要件使得為之就是我不要再出現公共利益這樣的字眼然後下面的條款可以再討論文字內容可以再就是不要再出現重大公共利益"},{"start":23111.576,"end":23124.976,"text":"然後應符合下列目的外申請特定目的外利用健保資料應符合下列要件然後逗點時的為之然後下面就是1234這樣子那裡面的內容是否要再討論這樣"},{"start":23150.103,"end":23164.544,"text":"其實我們原來的院版因已提升醫療品質那醫療品質其實就在趙志文寫的第二款醫療服務品質的評估那我的公共衛生院版的公共衛生就在第一個用於公共衛生跟疾病"},{"start":23165.505,"end":23187.417,"text":"防治那麼我們又多加了一個社會福利另外有促進學術研究發展促進學術研究發展就跟趙志偉的第三款其實意思是一樣的那麼後面後面提到的是提供政府機關構及行政法執行法定職務目的為限好那這個呢又跟趙志偉裡面所提的第四款"},{"start":23187.937,"end":23214.674,"text":"其實意思也是有點雷同所以是不是肯請趙志偉可以讓我們維持原來的月本我們本來講是第三條的公共利益的定義整合到第八條來你現在又把第七條扯進來了我們本來討論的是現在就要講第八條整合進來就是在我們我們當時講到趙志偉的版本是講他的第三條的第五款的公共利益的定義"},{"start":23216.94,"end":23234.499,"text":"然後就是說把這個第五款的公共利益的定義整合到第八條不是只他的第七條整合到第八條他的第七條跟第八條兩件事情是不一樣的事情而我們現在只在談公共利益的定義而已"},{"start":23236.021,"end":23247.118,"text":"你現在把七八整合在一起我們當時講的是第三條的公共利益的定義整合到第八條而已沒有講到第七條他的第七條還沒被討論啊"},{"start":23249.546,"end":23270.645,"text":"那個招資委員的第七條就是我們院版的第八條招資委員是第七條要把它刪掉然後現在就是第七條的部分呢就是要把原來他要寫在原來是第三條他爐裂了五款的那個公共利益的定義嘛所以我剛剛有說明說他這裡又爐裂了五條重大公共利益"},{"start":23271.787,"end":23285.702,"text":"我們應該是第三條的公共利益的定義跟我們原本第八條談好了我們再繼續來談趙志偉的第七條應該是這樣子而不是直接跟他整合在一起"},{"start":23286.623,"end":23301.123,"text":"那我分別說明 原來在第三條的部分 昭之委員所寫的公共利益的第一款第一款他寫的是提升全民健康照護品質 公共衛生疾病預防或健康平等"},{"start":23302.184,"end":23326.517,"text":"這裡呢這裡如果我廣義上來解讀我們的院版裡面其實原來就有公共衛生那做疾病預防那個就是提升醫療品質那也有一部分是在疾病的預防其實有一部分是要透過促進學術研究發展來達到這個目的的然後第二款裡面所寫的提升醫療服務可進性與效率"},{"start":23328.004,"end":23351.084,"text":"或改善弱勢群體健康處境這個部分嚴格上來講我是不是也可以把它解釋為是提升我的醫療品質那至於第三款針對重大傳染病疫苗安全性環境等重大公共衛生事件進行即時公共風險評估其實那個蓋範信我也含過在我的公共衛生裡頭了"},{"start":23353.946,"end":23373.246,"text":"那第四款第四款不得以商業行銷個別營利或直接識別個人為目的在我原來院版裡面提到的部分本來就沒有寫到本來就是不能做商業行銷或個別營利不過這個部分因為月群委員裡面他有提到說希望在"},{"start":23373.886,"end":23391.522,"text":"增加前項申請不得為盈利使用這待會可以去做討論那第五款的部分是原來寫了該目的也就是健保資料的使用目的無法透過假名化資料或其他合理方式達成切一彩形必要這各戶"},{"start":23392.603,"end":23417.031,"text":"各自保護與濫用防治措施這個剛剛在跟召集委員溝通的時候我們是希望第五款的部分是不是那個感覺上跟目的好像比較跟我那個使用符合那個公共利益這個感覺上好像比較搭不上所以原來是希望第五款也不要列那原來召集委員寫在第七條的1234"},{"start":23418.812,"end":23432.775,"text":"那個就是我剛剛其實也解讀了就是其實我原來就有提升醫療品質公共衛生還有促進學術研究發展其實我原來的意境都裡面都含瓜了所以是不是能夠讓我們保留就是維持原本就好了這樣"},{"start":23435.29,"end":23457.725,"text":"跟委員再補充說明這個原本的這個招資委員的這個第三條的名詞定義的公共利益我們比較跟現在第八條的這個行政院版本大概有幾個地方的落差啦一個呢就是疾病預防跟傳染病防治"},{"start":23458.726,"end":23481.004,"text":"在我們這裡面是沒有特別寫出來我們是把它認為它是屬於公共衛生的一環所以如果要去名列出來也就是更長一點而已就是說它有一個是屬於疾病預防跟傳染病防治的議題像疫苗安全那個都是傳染病防治另外有一個是環境衛生"},{"start":23482.245,"end":23511.149,"text":"的問題在我們這裡面呢是沒有特別去點出啦那另外還有一個就是醫療服務的可進性跟效率啦那這個效率的部分可以是我們醫療品質的一環那就是還有一個是可進性跟弱勢群體健康處境就看看我們要不要再再把它明確一點寫更多我們不反對"},{"start":23515.152,"end":23522.137,"text":"好,請問知事委員我講過就好了,你們兩位"},{"start":23532.057,"end":23548.401,"text":"因為有人就大家也都說這個法是給民眾看的那你用很經典的文字然後對比說其實講的是同一件事我當然不會是反對啦但是你不是說這個條文是給民眾看的嗎看了就很虛啊"},{"start":23549.221,"end":23567.99,"text":"就是虛虛的嘛公衛啦 品質啦 福利啦那我們是很認真想說把它具體化嘛也許就是更清楚那民眾看了就懂啦因為這次事件也是民眾提的啊所以基本上是原來的想法是這樣啊刪掉的那一條我們剛剛已經溝通好了嘛"},{"start":23568.57,"end":23580.3,"text":"就是說我基本上就是這樣說明到底要不要用很簡單的四個字說其實我們已經表達了還是說稍微把它清楚寫一下然後這樣會更讓民眾看得懂的法條"},{"start":23585.198,"end":23604.292,"text":"我先這邊講我覺得如果要這樣子分款項來設計我真的太過還是一樣瑣碎的問題為什麼如果一樣瓜一肉萬就是講說那你講說改善弱勢群體的健康處境可是如果不是弱勢的話那到底要不要改善如果是還有什麼叫重大"},{"start":23604.972,"end":23634.025,"text":"一樣又回來重大公共衛生事件那如果不重大可是有些對有些影響是好那就不處理嗎所以這個我有點擔心我覺得反而事實上原來院版的比較大的一個相度裡邊可能未來在做的時候可能還可以比較涵蓋一點那所以我比較建議事實上採用王委員剛剛修正的第一項文字然後增進公共利益然後並增列我的那個第二項不得盈利使用以上"},{"start":23636.567,"end":23662.405,"text":"跟委員說明就是說我們不要分款啦還是按照剛剛的行政院的版本然後去加看看如果要更清楚的像傳染病防治這個把它寫進去那麼像這個環境衛生這個把它寫進去讓他更清楚就用原來的行政院的版本去加文字含納陳肇之委員的那一些所謂的重大公共利益的精神"},{"start":23662.705,"end":23688.085,"text":"我看到對照起來剛剛的定義裡面大概就是這一些可以加進來來 文智俊議員謝謝主席我想這個與增進公共利益放在這個法律條文裡面我是滿期待能夠把它放進來就是說除了原來院版的內容以外在導出第二行就增加與增進公共利益就好像剛剛葉先生所提到的"},{"start":23689.227,"end":23704.102,"text":"因為增進公共利益其實在憲法23條裡面也把人民針對這個增進公共利益相關的一些規範也做一些確認說明所以希望能夠把增進公共利益也能夠放到第8條來"},{"start":23705.123,"end":23724.499,"text":"那至於說裡面很冗長的內容要不要寫在法條裡面還是用立法說明把它完備就是讓民眾將來可以了解什麼叫增進公共利益包括我們今天所討論的這些內容都能夠含括進來的話那這樣就不會造成法條上在閱讀"},{"start":23725.84,"end":23749.033,"text":"造成了一些困擾或者是困難我們期待是用這樣的方式來解決剛剛詹惟所提到一些期待讓它有完整可是又不至於讓民眾未來在讀這個法條的時候會漏掉說因為沒有放在法條裡面就可以從這個立法說明去得到完整的內容以上好 請李議員"},{"start":23752.702,"end":23765.233,"text":"從第三條的第五款的名詞定義和昭知委員的第七條的這個概念我看到了爭點大概可以整合幾個概念那其他我認為詳細的狀況應該可以寫在立法說明欄"},{"start":23770.515,"end":23799.935,"text":"那母法的條文裡面我看到的可以放進去的當然就是要先宣示一個是促進公共利益再來就是我覺得趙志偉委員裡面講到的醫療的可敬性這件事情很重要那什麼環境衛生其實那都在公共衛生的範疇所以就不用講其實是促進公共利益醫療的可敬性還有一個就是大家沒有談到其實這些很多趙志偉裡面寫的其實要改善健康不平等"},{"start":23801.436,"end":23829.395,"text":"其實改善健康不平等這個很重要那招資委員第七條裡面最關鍵的一條其實就是說你要目的外利用要作為最後的手段你必須窮盡一切的研究的方法都不可得了最後的手段才是來申請這一些大量資料給你去利用所以他的意思是說無法以其他資料替代了"},{"start":23830.916,"end":23859.034,"text":"意思是說其實你大量的健保資料庫其實是要作為最後手段所使用的啦其實就是這幾個概念啦那大家可以討論就是招資委員就是在行政院院版之外就是放進促進公共利益然後這個增加醫療的可進性然後改善健康不平等且作為最後手段這樣子看大家討論啦就這樣的方向然後就跟行政院版"},{"start":23859.474,"end":23884.722,"text":"文字是這樣子但立法說明欄把你的這個第五款的名詞定義和第七款的細節再放到立法說明欄我覺得母法的條文應該是越精簡越好的概念沒錯啦但一看也都知道一看也就知道因為你重複的東西一直講就是一樣環境衛生就是跟公共衛生是連結的啊類似這樣的狀況啦"},{"start":23887.503,"end":23909.901,"text":"但是改善健康不平等健康不平等這個issue其實是很重要的那醫療的可敬性跟行政院來講他們也都沒有談到這一件事行政院沒有談到改善健康不平等沒有談到醫療的可敬性沒有講到最後手段了當然最後手段這件事情要不要可以討論啦"},{"start":23911.502,"end":23926.709,"text":"那我決定整理起來就是一二三四四個點是行政院版沒有談到的宣示一個大的方向促進公共利益把趙志偉整合進來最後手段然後可敬信然後改善健康不平等"},{"start":23930.479,"end":23958.002,"text":"還有那個林業勤委員的喔林業勤委員的不得你使用我們是不是從那個第八條行政院的百分之百的文字我們加幾個地方來符合大家那個委員提到的就是因已提升那個醫療品質的前面因為這個是全民健康保險資料那麼陳昭志委員特別有提到全民健保制度的改善啦"},{"start":23959.28,"end":23986.567,"text":"所以是不是把第一個就是寫應以提升全民健康保險制度頓點因為都是提升他的頭都是提升所以醫療品質健康平等把健康平等一個剛的林委員是說改善健康不平等我們是提升健康平等啦我覺得這是普通的概念啦那你那個要反過來因為前面都是用提升公共衛生啊什麼都是"},{"start":23987.968,"end":24007.994,"text":"對啦 你們講說健康平等這個是一個宣示的態度但是我是要告訴大家就是說其實存在的健康不平等而我們要去改善它這是紫色的可能是同一件事情但是觀看的角度不一樣健康不平等這個我是至少我個人希望凸顯的是健康不平等"},{"start":24008.114,"end":24030.479,"text":"好 那就會寫在後面一點前面都是提升的健康不平等不要放在前面因為要改善健康不平等好 那就寫在後面那就是全民健康保險制度醫療品質還有這個公共衛生 社會福利後面這裡還有一個改善健康不平等在促進的前面放在那裡"},{"start":24035.428,"end":24058.707,"text":"因為制度嘛後面那個又是另外一個是促進學術研究發展那又是另外一個最後再加上那個王振旭委員的增進公共利益放在後面這樣那是不是都有含納到剛剛委員提到的那個是第二項第二項"},{"start":24068.26,"end":24076.228,"text":"對我支持這個現在改過來的真的會比較完整你支持改過來的然後他等一下第二項要加我的就這樣"},{"start":24079.845,"end":24102.662,"text":"行政機關再補充說明我再唸一次就是申請特定目的外利用健保資料因已提升全民健康保險制度頓號那剛剛有漏掉一個醫療服務可進信也是醫療服務可進信然後在頓號醫療好那可進信這個東西要換什麼"},{"start":24111.031,"end":24117.886,"text":"那就應以提升醫療服務可經性把那個全民健保制度那個好 閃掉 就是"},{"start":24119.831,"end":24141.257,"text":"應以提升全民健康保險制度醫療服務可進行醫療品質公共衛生社會福利改善健康不平等促進學術研究發展"},{"start":24147.625,"end":24151.095,"text":"促進學術研究發展然後這裡要寫頓點頓號提升政府機關購"},{"start":24155.976,"end":24184.443,"text":"及行政法人執行法定職務與王振旭委員後面的與增進公共利益之目的違憲那至於剛剛岳勤委員所寫到的那個申請不得營利使用這個部分是不是可以容許我們在立法說明裡面再去把它續名因為剛剛包括趙志偉裡面有寫到一些我們盡可能把它濃縮然後寫在立法說明裡面部分我不同意還是要放在這"},{"start":24191.161,"end":24212.695,"text":"基本上是這樣子的 蓄於法律保留原則的那你就一定要給人家寫上去那沒有涉及到法律保留原則的當然可以在立法說明欄那什麼東西是蓄於法律保留原則 明定的當然就是權利義務關係那到底是說不得為盈利使用是不是權利義務關係當然是啦 老實說啦"},{"start":24215.217,"end":24216.057,"text":"各位同仁看文字這樣可以嗎"},{"start":24258.754,"end":24270.383,"text":"因為這個頓的太長文字上可不可以稍微改一下因已提升全民健康保險制度頓點醫療服務可進行頓點"},{"start":24276.892,"end":24301.869,"text":"全民健康保險制度醫療服務可敬信與品質可敬信醫療服務可敬信與品質那個醫療就不要啦可敬信與醫療品質醫療就不用 與品質醫療服務可敬信與品質好 品質"},{"start":24305.032,"end":24327.906,"text":"對這樣文字可以短一點醫療品質與可敬性這樣好然後逗點逗點逗點用逗點把它逗開增進增進公共衛生頓點社會福利"},{"start":24331.817,"end":24354.903,"text":"然後再一個逗點 再改 再隔開 欸 增進公共衛生與社會福利然後再逗點 分開然後改善健康不平等問他逗點促進學術研究發展"},{"start":24362.539,"end":24390.078,"text":"與提供這樣這樣那個是不是把因為前面有加增進所以是把增進公共利益搬到前面去就是增進公共衛生社會福利頓好公共利益然後再頓好改善健康不平等促進學術研究發展後面那個是因為另外就是維持原來月板的那個是為了"},{"start":24391.459,"end":24406.444,"text":"與提供政府機關構計行政法人執行法定職務目的違憲那個是在我們後面的第十條裡面所敘明前面那一段呢其實就是在應該就是第十一條啦第十一條我機關來跟我申請學術研究的時候應該要符合這些範圍"},{"start":24416.94,"end":24443.793,"text":"各位同仁看這樣可以嗎來請主委員好謝謝我再請教一下因為既然已經放了不得因為我原來也有講不得為商業盈利那另外兩個就是我還是念一下因為我在原來修正在修正動議裡面有寫不得進行個人再識別行為亦不得與其他資料結合而至有再識別之餘已經多了一個不得那我剩下那兩個不得看大家意見要不要再放回去"},{"start":24453.442,"end":24472.088,"text":"你們好有把握就不會機關用的時候要串接呢串接會啊對啊串接會啊所以所以我剛剛我有三個不啊我有不得"},{"start":24477.887,"end":24487.254,"text":"不得進行個人在識別行為亦不得與其他資料結合而置有在識別之餘我原來的資料有寫資料的判決所謂合理資料的判決所謂合理"},{"start":24511.007,"end":24531.4,"text":"行政機關在說明我第十條的政府機關構它執行法定職務它本來拿到的就是可識別的個人資料它是因為它的依據是執行法定職務所以那個部分不能把它放進來因為政府機關構比如說司法那個"},{"start":24532.85,"end":24559.997,"text":"法院啊什麼他就是要針對個人個人來調查資料那那個部分的原則上我們一定會是用名碼提供給提供給這些政府機關購只不過是我在提供的過程當中我們會做到保護措施我們做到保護措施讓他不會有那個資料的外洩的可行所以那個部分會在我們第十條政府機關購要用書面來申請我們有授權的"},{"start":24560.938,"end":24570.114,"text":"所以包括資料的提供方式那個部分我們會在授權辦法裡面去明訂以上說明這樣可以嗎來請王振旭委員"},{"start":24573.522,"end":24590.997,"text":"針對第八條如果要追加第二項就是千項申請不得為營利使用不過我提醒一下因為我們中午在討論第十五條的時候其實那個時候大家也知道根據這個我們"},{"start":24594.76,"end":24619.175,"text":"熱情委員所提到要15就是從申請日到15年15年內要產生商業利益者會提供回饋金等等的這個部分其實就是之前林委員常常擔心的部分就是說你之前都沒說利益後面突然又跑出一個產業利益所以我是說如何能夠讓這兩個概念"},{"start":24620.896,"end":24646.285,"text":"在這部法律同時存在的時候到時候不至於有前後造成的衝突或困擾所以如果我們再追加這一項的時候主管機關這邊如何能夠不造成後續再解讀前項申請不得為營利使用跟後面的這個產業利益當中有一個比較好的可以連結的地方"},{"start":24647.366,"end":24673.66,"text":"好 謝謝王委員我這裡再補充說明其實我們剛剛在修的第八條的目的我們綜合來講就是我要達到我的公共利益那麼這裡所講的因為我都是在做學術研究所以學術研究的時候我根本就不容許他有確實他不會我看因為他的研究範圍跟研究目的"},{"start":24674.44,"end":24693.303,"text":"他就是在做研究所以不會有盈利的行為但是15條所提到的是因為我們學術研究所蒐集到的使用結果這些結果或許我有機會未來有機會可以申請專利或是我可以技術移轉那個部分就會去產生產業的利益"},{"start":24693.783,"end":24720.776,"text":"所以這兩條並不衝突所以我前面其實已經續名當然是不會做因為我的研究範圍研究目的他一定要告訴我填寫申請書的時候他就要續名他是要做什麼用的但是15條真的未來有可能這個研究的結果或許可以跟資訊機構或是跟外界的公司可以有機會可以開發專利或者是我有技術移轉的機會大概精神上是這樣補充說明"},{"start":24722.637,"end":24723.018,"text":"哎 怎樣"},{"start":24743.942,"end":24767.302,"text":"不好意思 曾慧黛市長您剛剛沒有回答你確定OK嗎 就是不會再發生那個個人再識別行為也沒有辦法去跟別的資料結合以至於那個有再識別之餘這個會發生嗎那個會再串檔的就只有那個政府機關購他申請去了之後呢他依法定職權他需要去串"},{"start":24768.387,"end":24775.668,"text":"譬如說那個家戶調查那他們在做的就會需要串這個醫療利用情形"},{"start":24777.168,"end":24803.508,"text":"所以他那個加護我們每年的那個行政院發布的那個人口資料裡面他就需要去串之後去分析啦所以那個都是依法定職權所以他是有需要的所以不能夠說不可以完全不可以串至於說是依本法的11條來申請出去的都不會有這些個人資料可以再串的問題他只拿出統計資料"},{"start":24821.683,"end":24823.726,"text":"來,各位同仁,針對,好來,請王智旭委員"},{"start":24824.724,"end":24845.242,"text":"我現在看到目前正在修正的部分這是第8條前面申請特定目的外利用健保資料應以提升全民健康保險制度提升全民健康保險制度這個制度本身好像"},{"start":24846.062,"end":24871.482,"text":"會在這個地方有點難題所以是不是再施捨一下是不是改善全民健保制度然後提升後面等等的就是先改善全民健康保險制度然後再提升醫療品質等等的這樣後面這樣比較能夠符合期待不然你現在提升這個制度不知道怎麼提升"},{"start":24883.203,"end":24911.29,"text":"你不知道你的制度要改善嗎啊不然你變成了醫醫那就分再分成一組就是健全健全全民健康保險制度頓點提升醫療品質與可敬性頓點改善這樣好不好啊不然現在很沒健全的永遠弟弟健全啊"},{"start":24912.858,"end":24933.718,"text":"不是啦,你應該想清楚這其實在八條你應該要解釋清楚,在八條到底是要說什麼目的是安坐嘛有時候立法前後呼應,然後你們自己提的法條的範疇應該你要說明得非常清楚,不然就"},{"start":24935.629,"end":24954.174,"text":"一燒一蒸就會越來越,全部都要包起來,那越包越多,就是討厭你的制度,就是有很多的,要調啦所以你再衝下去,你就越來越闊,那越闊就看你的門票越多"},{"start":24962.846,"end":24985.14,"text":"健全 全民健康保險是不要嘛就是還是從提升醫療品質開始嘛剛剛 剛剛是希望是可敬信嘛健康不平等 曾經公共委總許行政機關來說明 其實我們這個條例麥克風沒有聲音 麥克風"},{"start":24990.734,"end":25013.861,"text":"就是要申請特定目的外的利用利用我的健保資料所以這個部分其實是要去做我的資料目的外的利用那就是要去做學術的研究所以這個部分我們原來寫了我還是很懇請委員可以支持我們原來院版的說法它就是用來提升醫療的品質"},{"start":25015.241,"end":25028.647,"text":"提升醫療的品質然後呢 提升公共衛生那當然還有一塊是社會福利促進學術研究發展因為這個部分其實嚴格上我這個就是要申請特定目的來的利用健保資料"},{"start":25030.922,"end":25057.182,"text":"申請健保資料的理不例外利用你就要審核那審核就是說要符合這些東西我就給你二准那他申請的是說我要改善健康不平等不可以嗎那我要做什麼的不可以嗎這個講這個就是要界定說什麼資格什麼目的是可以申請的其實大多數你們行政院反送他們蓋了"},{"start":25077.021,"end":25085.308,"text":"來 各位委員看一下第八條行政院版本在修正"},{"start":25088.21,"end":25112.844,"text":"因為有一條促進公共利益其實就全部都涵蓋了未來上面沒有寫的後面就一個只要是跟公共利益有關的也是授權給他們可以同意了啊就把增進公共利益也寫進來了所以就是對啦其實都可以了啦只是第二項那個再跟約群委員溝通一下那個盈利使用我們是一定要寫進來嗎就是"},{"start":25127.262,"end":25139.348,"text":"第一項其實以增進公共利益什麼什麼為限其實就沒有含那個盈利使用公共利益不代表沒有盈利"},{"start":25149.588,"end":25177.068,"text":"那個跟委員報告那是不是可以加上一個前向申請不得為商業盈利使用商業盈利使用就是說我們這個學校他有時候他還是有制裁權的產生他還是有利益所以就是商業利益商業就是趙志偉原寫的那樣商業盈利使用商業盈利使用"},{"start":25179.667,"end":25180.948,"text":"第8條就是最後一項前項申請不得為商業營利使用其他條文就"},{"start":25208.325,"end":25218.097,"text":"以剛剛給各位同仁看了很久的這樣的一個文字就是以院版的條文再修正或通過謝謝接下來我們處理保留條文第9條請說明"},{"start":25221.704,"end":25249.11,"text":"第九條在序明說申請者是以政府機關構行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構為限那麼月期委員的版本裡面多增加了兩項一項是指非為中華民國境內登記設計之大學法人機構不得為前項之申請那第三項是同時在中華民國境內及外國大陸地區香港或澳門"},{"start":25250.05,"end":25271.007,"text":"登記設立之大學法人機構或位於外國大陸地區香港或澳門登記設立但設有分支機構 辦事處隸屬關係單位之大學法人機關不得為第一項之申請王振旭委員有提到"},{"start":25274.055,"end":25293.391,"text":"也是稍微有酌休那我這裡綜合的說明就是如果我們行政機關建議的版本是在我的第一項第一項裡面說明前條申請者以政府機關購行政法人"},{"start":25294.912,"end":25317.077,"text":"或於中華民國境內設立之醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構違憲至於熱情委員寫到的第三項呢我待會是不是可以請我們教育部或國歌會的代表來說明因為這裡齁這裡是因為我們現在沒辦法確定是不是有大學他在"},{"start":25317.757,"end":25341.62,"text":"他雖然沒有在外國或大陸地區登記設立但是設有分支機構也就是說他有分校或辦事處只要有這樣我這條寫進去之後呢假設他真的有在那邊設立有分支機構那他都不能來申請這個健保資料的研究當然我也尊重那個各大學院校那邊但是我們現在不清楚是不是有這樣的情境如果寫這條進來"},{"start":25343.341,"end":25358.346,"text":"會怕會有這種情況那至於醫療機構醫療機構的部分呢因為我們現在呢都有在做那個新南向計畫或是什麼等等的其實有不少的醫療機構也都在有在協助啦"},{"start":25358.626,"end":25376.127,"text":"但是是不是真的是由醫療機構或者是大學學術研究團體他們有在外國裡面有登記設立那目前據我的了解是只要是公立學校或者是那個大概目前是不可能在外面設的這待會可以請教會部去做補充"},{"start":25376.727,"end":25397.621,"text":"那學術研究團體大致上應該是這樣所以是不是可以這個第三項的部分院群委員可以溝通不堅持放那我們就把或與中華民國境內設立的這個我們把它續名是在中華民國境內設立的這個醫療機構學術研究機構還有大學等等先請教育部做說明好不好教育部"},{"start":25404.779,"end":25432.047,"text":"主席各位好那有關這個在加布這邊是同義崗的這個增列或於這個中華民國境內設立之這個大學這樣的規定至於說目前的現況的話國立大學確實沒有在國外設分校那私立大學目前有民傳大學在美國有設分校但民傳大學並沒有醫學系"},{"start":25434.088,"end":25453.64,"text":"的這個設立醫學系 以上報告好各位同仁有沒有其他意見那我同意剛剛就是把第一項跟第二項合併那第三項可以拿掉沒有問題來"},{"start":25474.148,"end":25481.955,"text":"根據院版的修正簽條申請者以政府機關購行政法人或與中華民國境內設立之醫療機構"},{"start":25486.32,"end":25514.49,"text":"學術研究機構大學即受政府機關委託之大學法人機構違憲這個就王振旭委員的版本嘛對不對修正在動議嗎對啊是是好那各位委員沒有意見我們就照王振旭委員所提的修正動議後通過好謝謝來我們接下來處理保留條例第10條請行政機關說明"},{"start":25516.755,"end":25543.087,"text":"第十條的部分是在針對政府機關購在及行政法人執行法定職務申請特定目的外利用的時候呢應該要不管他取得的健保資料及運用管理要依各該政府機關及行政法人所依據的法律來辦理那第二項我們會續名有關申請程序應檢附的文件等等這個我們會用"},{"start":25545.39,"end":25551.92,"text":"那第三項寫的是司法機關因為偵查審判他是因依訴訟法規來辦理監察機關則是因依監察法規來辦理"},{"start":25556.997,"end":25583.327,"text":"那月勤委員這邊就是他有多增加了一個就是未經被保險人與事前同意者不得為前項的提供但是這裡因為我的主管機關我的主管機關本來就是依法定他的法定職長就是他所依據的法律去執行所以這個部分他不用經過那個被事前同意"},{"start":25584.247,"end":25612.547,"text":"那這個是不是就容許維持我們的原本沒有沒有 我再繼續說明我先表達我這邊 上次我們已經有溝通過我覺得同意謝謝 謝謝委員那接下來就是淑芬委員的版本就是她有在另外再增加一項就是第一項申請應用大量資料申請者應訂定使用規範其內容如下"},{"start":25613.648,"end":25630.055,"text":"這個部分因為這裡所謂的申請應用大量資料上一次6月9號在審查的時候好像有真的這個有稍微討論就是因為所謂的大量健保資料我很難定義所以那時候我記得好像有討論到說是不是就改為非"},{"start":25631.235,"end":25644.005,"text":"非特定個人資料這待會可以再討論那申請者應該訂定使用規範淑芬委裡面寫的資料使用的目的方式還有資料接觸人員"},{"start":25647.194,"end":25669.011,"text":"因為這個是政府機關購您這裡所寫的資料使用的目的他本來就要告訴我政府機關他所依據的法律是什麼所以我們才會提供給他那資料接觸人員基本上就是也都會在我們的授權辦法裡面我們會明定說我的資料提供方式是有哪些"},{"start":25669.992,"end":25688.748,"text":"那還有就是資料事件預防通報的應變作業程序以及資料收集特定目的消失這個資料收集的特定目的消失也會在我們的授權辦法裡面去明定因為每個政府機關他所依據的法律還有他要來申請"},{"start":25691.969,"end":25716.823,"text":"取得健保資料的目的都不同所以也有他們分別各該法律裡面所定的一些期限他到底這個資料收集要多久所以這個部分我們會回歸回各該政府機關裡面的依據法律去做執行所以這個部分是不是可以我們這一項就不用特別在這邊定我個人是不同意的"},{"start":25718.004,"end":25735.68,"text":"因為他們依據法定這個職務來申請目的外利用那他們有他們的立法的用意但是他們絕對在目前所有我們所知道的法律裡面他們的作用法絕對不會去管到資訊安全這一部分現在因為過去的個資的保護的概念不發達"},{"start":25742.947,"end":25758.475,"text":"所以每一部作用法裡面都不會涉及到你收集掉人家提供你資料之後那些資料後續要怎麼處理不會都沒有任何一部法律有談到那我們現在就要克則在我們這個"},{"start":25760.436,"end":25783.433,"text":"要處理的這個目的外適用的時候要苛責於這些機關你申請非特定個人資料的大量的這些使用的時候你要先訂定出使用的管理規範那你說要依法有據第一款然後算依法有據沒關係已經依法有據就依法有據本來就有沒關係那你接觸的人員的安全管理規範你說要授權辦法"},{"start":25785.851,"end":25807.478,"text":"你要什么授权办法那个跟委员报告这个我们认为是可行的只是说本来的一亿的地方在大量什么叫大量那没问题把它改成一项申请应用非特定个人健保资料申请者可以那其他就照我们的可以对可以那就好了因为刚才听本来听你们解释好像是说"},{"start":25816.463,"end":25843.012,"text":"要照你們的版本通過不是照我的修正動議通過啊照我們的修正意見把大量資料的變成非特定個人資料反正就照我們的版本去修正啦"},{"start":25847.168,"end":25860.651,"text":"好,各位有沒有其他意見?沒有,第四點我們就以民主委員的再修正,修正都沒有通過,還是再修正?要再修正嗎?要再修正嗎?就跟院辦的?"},{"start":25874.349,"end":25898.581,"text":"那就是也把陳教授委員的部分文字有換進去啦那就是林淑媛與陳教授委員的再修正動議後通過好 謝謝我們講的行政法人刪除了是講第幾條"},{"start":25903.057,"end":25917.733,"text":"第十一條還是第十條第十條喔第十條的行政法人執行法定職務目前當然是沒有啦但是因為我們目前在進行立法中的那個科技評估沒關係啦第十條應該可以保留第十一條才刪除吧"},{"start":25919.215,"end":25944.384,"text":"沒有啦先保留啦都保留啦行政法人都保留啦但是因為行政法人的人都不是公務員流動性又很強可是他如果是執行法定職務啦目前當然沒有以目前的情形如果是刪除是OK啦第十條的行政法人刪除OK可是未來如果有那個行政法人就醫療科技評估先保留啦"},{"start":25944.684,"end":25969.52,"text":"因為他一定要有依法律你現在衛福部要成立兩個行政法人叫什麼行政法人就是那個醫療科技評估中心行政法人還有一個人還有一個中醫藥啊中醫藥研究所要變成行政法人你們就為了你們自己兩個才搞這個對啊因為他們都會依法這個都是要依照法定職務來做的都是有法律依據的啦"},{"start":25970.256,"end":25982.889,"text":"你們不可以代替別人的啦先保留再說好了就是這個所以行政法人先保留啦不要刪除啦後面那個照列這樣好來 李業俊委員"},{"start":25985.832,"end":26013.775,"text":"剛剛看第九條 後來再看到我的 大家會回來因為上次在我們辦公室溝通的時候 如果現在用網訊區的版本好像漏掉一個東西 就是說因為禍於中華民國境內設立的醫療機構學術研究機構大選可是我是希望是什麼 非為中華民國境內登記設立的大選法人跟機構都不可以作為前項的申請這有落差 至少法人這一塊"},{"start":26015.854,"end":26025.825,"text":"最後用王振旭的版本不是我的會變成當初你們來辦公室溝通說這兩個合併是可以解決掉那我覺得同意合併可是現在會有一個落差是在法人這一塊並沒有"},{"start":26027.717,"end":26036.9,"text":"法人也要在中華民國境內設立是沒錯沒有嗎沒有我們就這樣子寫法是嗎是因為他是用頓點跟逗點區隔所以他的讀法是於中華民國境內設立之醫療機構境內設立之學術研究機構還有大學因為他用頓點然後後面在逗點分開所以加一種"},{"start":26053.364,"end":26071.37,"text":"對 這裡一週啊 我連法人 我的想法是非違中華民國境內登記設計的有三個大學法人跟機構都不行法人 法人今天的想法的法人是"},{"start":26073.628,"end":26089.636,"text":"財團法人之類的啦對啊那可是我們兩者是可是跟上次到我辦公室溝通的那我剛剛看欸你說要用網證去辦上次我們溝通是說兩個合併是都要涵蓋在裡面所以我同意第三項拿掉可是不代表我的第二項漏掉"},{"start":26091.789,"end":26093.53,"text":"行政法人是保留嘛對不對"},{"start":26116.789,"end":26143.146,"text":"好 那第四條就是以林俗文跟陳昇之委員的修正在修正單位在修正後通過可以齁 要確定一次 可以齁不要再通過之後要再點頭來喔 來好 第四條我們通過了齁 接下來處理第十一條 保留條文第十一條請行政機關先說明 就是那個執議 審查會"},{"start":26152.997,"end":26167.947,"text":"第十一條的部分就是來申請做學術研究來申請做學術研究的那個情形那依規定應該要填去申請書等等"},{"start":26169.628,"end":26186.164,"text":"那核准之後呢如果有修正或變更展顏需要也一樣在意前項的規定來提出申請那我們最後一項呢會有序名說申請整個資格條件程序還有這一條不是要請審查"},{"start":26188.823,"end":26205.833,"text":"計劃應記載的內容、審查程序與基準、費值、核准、收費及其他應遵行事項這辦法由主管機關頂持那這裡就是有淑芬委員裡面有特別把剛剛我們在討論的審查會的機制審查會的機制放進來"},{"start":26208.735,"end":26218.768,"text":"所以我們行政機關的意見也是可以把它放進來但是原來署分委員放的部分是放在"},{"start":26220.922,"end":26244.943,"text":"最後一項那我們如果依照體力上來講的話我們把它搬到第三項也就是說前兩項申請之審查由主管機關保險人分別邀集相關專家學者公民團體社會工作公證人士及政府機關代表組成審查會"},{"start":26247.504,"end":26271.236,"text":"參與審查其中專家學者公民團體及社會公正人士不得少於總數二分之一任意性別不得少於總數三分之一那原來我們的原來院版的前兩項我們就改為第一項及第二項的申請資格條件與程序申請書與特定目的外利用計劃應記載內容"},{"start":26273.357,"end":26302.123,"text":"特別我們的院我們現在修正了特別把因為剛剛不管是招資委員或署分委員都有提到那個資料風險的管控所以我們這裡把資料類型的等級補充在這裡就是因為他在填寫申請書的時候他就要續名他的資料是什麼資料要的是什麼資料所以我們這裡多加了資料類型等級然後呢審查程序與基準廢紙核准收費及其他應追尋事項是辦法由主管機關"},{"start":26303.363,"end":26325.029,"text":"有主管機關定之 以上說明請問這邊二分之一跟四分之三會不會有漢格 還是OK的因為現在分兩階了還是說可以分開因為分開 這裡是審查會我知道 因為現在分兩階了嘛所以那邊是"},{"start":26331.045,"end":26334.61,"text":"因為那邊是寫四分之三那這裡我們這裡是實質審查要二分之一還是四分之三"},{"start":26347.096,"end":26374.124,"text":"就是剛剛趙志偉在所提供的有關的這個資議會的組成跟審查會的組成是要一致四分之三還是說由我們這個修正動議所提出來的二分之一就可以讓這樣的專家學者或相關的組成是可以符合審查會的這個需求我想如果依照我們現在討論到目前為止"},{"start":26374.884,"end":26397.779,"text":"知事會他所提供的是更為符合要求的這個組成的話四分之三是OK的那如果審查會基本上是要審查相關的這些申請的案件如何能夠讓他具體的去達到這個目標我們認為二分之一其實是可以達到這個法定的需求所以我們這邊是"},{"start":26399.88,"end":26425.526,"text":"提出是不要少於二分之一這樣就可以好這是以上的意見提供給大家做參考那請問這樣會不會一半剩下一半都機關代表OK嗎剩下一半都機關代表因為他是不多少於二分之一所以一定是超過二分之一的我知道那但是也可以說就是將近有一半都是官方代表官方代表來審OK嗎OKOK我看OK嗎我是認為是OK是"},{"start":26427.896,"end":26447.497,"text":"很少有這個質疑,審查委員會一半是官方代表機關代表,很少很少這麼高比率那個代理司長你覺得?那請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":26450.337,"end":26475.465,"text":"這裡就是我們如果是專家學者公民團體社會公正不得少於總數二分之一啦因為其實我們這樣的成員裡面將來這些都是要參與實質審查的那我們會針對這裡面的成員因為會個案嘛那個不同的申請目的研究目的等不同我們會配合去從裡面去選擇來做審查符合原來那個申請案件的"},{"start":26476.105,"end":26496.462,"text":"的那個專業度啦所以這裡如果說要要把它修成四分之三因為我只是問說兩邊嘛第二個我現在聽妳說明好像不一定要開會審查欸我聽妳說明好像是就分出去審查欸對不對妳剛剛的說明說妳會挑選會參與審查對會參與審查不一定要開會喔要說那個全體合議審查啊是在加成全體合議審查嗎"},{"start":26505.987,"end":26524.866,"text":"整個審查會有可能兩個人就組成了這個審查會 全體合議審查這樣大家都要參加啊 民間要管啊兩個人溝通好就倒好了"},{"start":26531.099,"end":26545.949,"text":"請問署長你覺得這裡假設有一半是機關代表OK嗎他在做實質審查但是如果是寫不少於另外一邊是不少於二分之一那假設是二分之一就有一半是機關代表做實質審查署長覺得OK嗎"},{"start":26551.294,"end":26568.852,"text":"如果你問我個人的意見我是認為這個地方應該去規範是專家學者不要少於二分之一而已因為這個是實質審查實質審查其實是以專家學者為主的所以應該是以專家學者不要少於二分之一"},{"start":26571.127,"end":26595.562,"text":"這樣概念比較會符合啦因為剛剛我們是3分之4啦3分之4是因為除了機關代表出的都合起來3分之4是OK可是這個是個案的實質審查通常專家學者是佔的比例要比較高一點所以用1分之2來做其他的當然就OK這樣我可以接受只是說你那都是頓耗就是了你還是放在同一包啊"},{"start":26595.902,"end":26616.487,"text":"所以我的意見是應該是說其中專家學者不得少於總數二分之一公民團體跟社會人士本來就在裡面了因為那是實質審查這是真的專家學者的比例要高一點我沒有任何成見我是說你們再想一下"},{"start":26626.314,"end":26640.041,"text":"我再補充說明一下就是說如果其中專家學者、公民團體及社會公正人士不得少於總數二分之一的話基本上這個實質檢查能夠符合期待"},{"start":26640.541,"end":26667.478,"text":"而且更重要的就是如果這邊審查後面有意見自議會其實還是會針對審查結果做相對應的處理模式所以這部分我們倒是不會太擔心說是不是審查委員會這邊處理以後如果不符合期待的話後面沒有把關的機制好 各位同學有其他意見"},{"start":26668.905,"end":26688.324,"text":"那沒有這一條條文就是我們現場的委員是不是就給我們一個再修正動議因為原本就沒有這個審議會嘛那每個委員都簽名嘛好不好就是我們現場的委員所提的修正動議來通過啦好不好可以啦齁可以好謝謝"},{"start":26692.588,"end":26707.101,"text":"繼續審查跟主席報告剛剛那個林惠琴委員那個第九條的部分OK就是照剛剛討論的結果這樣好啦 OK所以等一下我們到晚時候再重新宣讀嘛是不是這樣好不好還是現在就要去沒有啦"},{"start":26710.044,"end":26712.887,"text":"保留條文第12條我們繼續來處理,請行政機關來做說明這是今天早上審查的"},{"start":26750.491,"end":26765.663,"text":"16條16條的部分是指例外原來院版"},{"start":26769.062,"end":26782.132,"text":"16條的部分就是我們有把本條例施行起30日內這個部分16條是主管機關及保險一個人資料保護法第11條公開剛剛沒有通過嗎16條有早上保留這是保留的啊"},{"start":26797.334,"end":26824.152,"text":"第16條主管機關及保險人依個人資料保護法第17條公開其持有健保資料有關事項時應必公開下列事項就是目前在那個上面所寫的條文就是我們行政機關擬出來的然後也把處分委員的意見我們把它放進來 挪到第16條是不是這樣可以處理"},{"start":26827.092,"end":26848.682,"text":"這是16條嗎?16條就是你們提供出來就這樣修正嘛對不對?對各位同仁看一下16條的修正條文在這裡面早上有增衣的部分是在19條那個例外的那一塊"},{"start":26851.69,"end":26876.753,"text":"所以16條我們就以這個文字在修正後通過對不對好謝謝來繼續保留條文第17條17條17條的部分就是那個招資委員裡面還有招資委員裡面第一項他增訂了就是要保險人跟當事人要締結"},{"start":26878.464,"end":26906.362,"text":"全民健康保險的契約條款取得當事人的同意那這個部分呢早上的時候那個署長也有特別提到就是說因為我們現在我們所有的被保險我們是強制保險其實沒有再去締結契約唯一就是現在我會有新生兒我會有新生兒的部分我才會發給他的健保卡所以那個部分是不是就是可以請昭志委員就是我們這個是不是"},{"start":26910.983,"end":26932.05,"text":"我請教你們個技術上的問題有沒有可能因為你們講到說好像300件如果一年300件我的概念不是這樣因為既然有這個法有這個法之後其實大家可以去了解這個法對他的保護所以是不是可能就是做一次因為已經有這個法當後盾這個可行性嗎這技術性可行嗎"},{"start":26933.09,"end":26950.42,"text":"就你的東西將來會有這些的狀況會被拿去使用這個有沒有困難跟委員說明這個不是三百件不是一年三百件這個是民眾他要來申請退出來申請退出的概念所以我們剛剛講的我們"},{"start":26953.342,"end":26970.855,"text":"我本來是想說要同意嘛我們來增加他退出行使退出權的可敬信就是他很容易來申請退出權用這個方式是不是比較我們行政執行上的行政成本也會比較低啦也比較可行啦"},{"start":26971.235,"end":26992.761,"text":"我們來增加他的那個方便性他要申請退出權的方便性所以早上我也有講一些方法因為我們前面16條有一個凍結期嘛凍結期就讓大家來申請退出了嘛啊過了這個30天的冷凍期啊後面還是可以來申請退出啊我們讓退出權的行使方便性高這樣好不好好謝謝啦"},{"start":26996.437,"end":27020.436,"text":"那退出權退出權你要弄成多方面我們會有授權辦法對我會一直要問這一條就是因為大法官講的是同意他講的不是退出他講的是同意要經得要徵得同意"},{"start":27022.045,"end":27050.348,"text":"阿忠德同意他的裁判文說是這麼寫的所以我才想說有沒有辦法簡化不是說每一次的案子有人申請就要再去問一次那還得了不是這樣子的就是說因為伴隨這個法的通過那大家知道有這件事情你的資料會因為符合這些規範所以你的資料會被拿去使用但是你可以退出有沒有可能做一次做得到嗎做一次"},{"start":27052.13,"end":27061.116,"text":"大家同意一次那個部分就是我們在第16條已經有續名我給30日但是退出了 你還在講退出啦"},{"start":27062.682,"end":27090.333,"text":"一個是負面表內 一個是正面表內我們兩個的出發點不一樣報告委員 那個很簡單 按照那個憲判制那個主文第四 其實大法官會議他們的意旨老實說 它比較不是同意權它比較應該是退出權在那個憲判制裡面它主要是賦予我們當事人是事後控制權的概念"},{"start":27094.341,"end":27117.438,"text":"這個幫會員這個主文來說是這樣的啦這第一點 第二點陳副剛剛我們市署長剛剛說的就是說我們是不是可以盡量設計成退出權的部分我們盡量來讓他他有一些他的這個進變性這個我想又能夠兼顧那個大法官的這一個意旨然後也對我們行政上真的是比較方便"},{"start":27119.34,"end":27143.95,"text":"因為這件事很關鍵啦其實 社長你剛才講那你宣判第37段啊他就說國家在沒有經過當事人同意的情況下就可以用這個等等這個已經構成對隱私資料隱私權的限制所以要符合法律明確宣別原則來加以審查就國家在沒有經過當事人同意的情況下他的裡面的文章是這麼寫的"},{"start":27145.43,"end":27167.66,"text":"第三十七段這個在整個法律法律上憲法上面法律上面的同意有兩種一種是屬於民事一種是屬於隱藏的比如說我要生下來我就是一定中華民國國民嘛這個我必須要經過那個太多的那個這是所謂的implicit的這一種concept我們現在目前就是"},{"start":27168.796,"end":27187.034,"text":"次長我站一個比較積極就是正面表演跟副委員你不說不來我就當作你賣一個就你說好我才會但是本來的精神是要啦大家都就說你們的同事都說忙死了累死了做不到啊我才想說不可能大家都做一次嗎這個因為以前沒這個法真的不行嗎委員再次說明因為憲法"},{"start":27192.987,"end":27193.147,"text":"無敵外用"},{"start":27209.109,"end":27235.645,"text":"對所以呢但是呢那塊呢我們是可以優於要讓民眾做要同意的那塊因為我的健保法裡面所以為什麼憲判主文依裡面續名說我學術研究是核限的我那個核限我並不需要去經過當事人的同意那但是呢因為我們有欠缺那個退出的概念所以我們才會立定這個專法後面的16條到19條都在續名"},{"start":27238.146,"end":27257.844,"text":"如何讓當事人可以退出所以委員您寫的那個36段那個部分其實在憲法法庭的那個憲判主文裡面主文一還是回來那是合憲的不需要經過當事人同意的主席這件事讓我們再思考一下好不好再回去想一下因為這件事蠻關鍵的啦"},{"start":27259.445,"end":27279.099,"text":"你看你們在做人家做IRB每個人都要寫同意書啊什麼都是要主動同意啊都要主動同意是主動的啦同意是主動的啊那那個退出是有一點說我先把你拉進來算進來啦你不肯再說啦就是說還是有差別啦還是有差別就就這一條先留著啦保留啊我覺得很關鍵很關鍵否則再保留怎麼會這樣"},{"start":27288.665,"end":27306.494,"text":"應該是這樣說就是說在所有的同意權行使有op in op out兩種就是先事前同意跟事後退出都有兩種方式那麼並不是說採事後退出就"},{"start":27308.669,"end":27335.691,"text":"就叫做合法合憲它是有配套的因為我們在資料提供的時候都是去辨識化去辨識化那麼所以才用事後退出這是相配套的如果你都提供原始資料把它釋出出去其實事後退出也不妥這個從人體生物資料庫管理條例可知道因為人體生物資料庫管理條例呢它是可辨識的資料所以它一定要事前同意"},{"start":27336.391,"end":27357.371,"text":"那我們這個呢在使用上除了這個政府機關夠依法律職長他可以有這個辨識性資料之外其他11條來申請的我們都是去辨識後的就是所謂的假名化資料同時還要指定地點時間不得吸出資料只能達到"},{"start":27359.713,"end":27383.434,"text":"統計的結果吸出所以它是有這麼多的配套做起來的所以我們才用事後退出權來符合大法那個憲法法庭的判決意旨啦所以是這樣啦好等一下好不好已經在隔了兩個多鐘頭我想還是要讓大家稍微清醒一點休息五分鐘那就請署長直接單面跟村委員說明一下好謝謝"},{"start":27858.421,"end":27883.918,"text":"好什麼聲音啊什麼聲音來 我們繼續開會喔嘿 來喔 你的齁好這個我們接下來處理欸 剛剛是第17條嘛齁徐董有跟陳昭之委溝通了嘛齁那17條的條文"},{"start":27893.187,"end":27909.584,"text":"我們在確認十幾條條文溝通結束,OKOK,好,就照這個文字嘛,是不是?在螢幕上的文字"},{"start":27910.889,"end":27925.174,"text":"對 他們陳若帥在辦法裡面退出權的辦法裡面要我也不知道哪裡 什麼時候可以看你那個退出權 退出的要做得很friendly我不知道你要怎麼做"},{"start":27926.212,"end":27954.59,"text":"因為我們在授權法規裡面有方式就是那個退出權的方式到時候我們除我們也會有網路的可以申請零貴的因為有些人還是網路不所以有零貴的有網路網路我們還會用APP我們的那個My Health Bank未來也可以健康存摺也可以來申請這樣我們讓他的方便性可敬性高啦這樣方便性高你會寫在那個授權法規他有個授權法規"},{"start":27955.891,"end":27958.072,"text":"所以我還是會給大家來看好各位同仁17條我們就照院板所提的條文來通過好謝謝繼續我們繼續處理保留條文第19條來請說明"},{"start":27988.586,"end":28015.164,"text":"我們剛剛跟蘇芬委員跟趙姿委員都有討論過我們現在在擬文字 等一下是不是待會再我們這個就先擱置我們先來處理保留條文第23條林業勤委員的版本22剛剛就已經不處理了林業勤委員的22條剛剛就不處理了你們上課都不認證"},{"start":28033.58,"end":28040.945,"text":"第九條第三項剛剛月群委員已經同意那個部分不放了所以這個其實就可以拿著就可以不用了"},{"start":28041.926,"end":28051.936,"text":"好 所以您所提的第23條就不予處理好 謝謝接下來我們處理保留條文第22條第22條剛剛我們討論的結果是我們要把22條刪除整條條文刪除 另外再增訂"},{"start":28065.268,"end":28092.019,"text":"就是剛剛有跟那個署分委員有討論過啦這主要在處理過去在有一些年度是有資料光碟釋出的那一些那理論上我們都已經宣布要銷毀了但是萬一有還沒銷毀的那應該要有處分的條文所以因為它是一個例外情形所以把條文移到後面所以22條先刪除然後再24條處理"},{"start":28093.941,"end":28102.995,"text":"24條新增的是我知道的但我們剛才早上講有講到22條刪除嗎沒有因為本來要處理的是22條是要處理的沒有你們早上講了4種情形耶4種違規的樣態耶"},{"start":28109.173,"end":28128.901,"text":"現在變成沒有半項的因為第一個如果他是跟原本核定的計劃內容不符的使用會在23條處理的第二個是說你本來後來講說copy資料出去那後來我們了解之後他是不可能的不會發生的不可能 不會發生萬一發生怎麼辦"},{"start":28131.598,"end":28160.046,"text":"他就不會發生啊萬一發生怎麼辦他可以拿到統計資料出去而已他就不會把所有的資料用處理你早上有講的還有另一種是什麼還有一種就是某種的光碟的光碟的啊我記得好像四種早上是講四種說四種啦你現在不是說兩種三種嗎對啊還有一種是便宜的啊便宜的就按照各自法處理的啊"},{"start":28161.141,"end":28177.913,"text":"他也是健保資料啊但是他目的外使用的時候他應該要來申請的他自己擅自就利用了個資法講的是刑責啦但我們也要對醫院要處以行政處分啊行政處分啊"},{"start":28179.518,"end":28203.529,"text":"本醫除了個資法的刑責我們要對醫院因為本醫可能處分的是洩漏個資的那個人啊個資法可能是處分那個洩漏個資的那個人可是我們對醫院你要克責他有這個義務啊醫院也要給他處分啊這樣他才會加強管理啊醫院一個是本醫洩漏出去的一個是複製的"},{"start":28216.998,"end":28234.608,"text":"22條可能要寫清楚我覺得是不是22條真的是要保留我們今天可以到院會協商的時候再處理也可以但22條恐怕要保留不是直接刪除白衣自己直接洩漏出去也要規範"},{"start":28237.637,"end":28251.889,"text":"然後copy出去的也是要規範的然後販賣光碟的24條在處理然後在那個還有什麼"},{"start":28257.725,"end":28277.661,"text":"各醫院有他自己的資料但是我們現在但是我們在講的是我們這裡的健保資料是醫療院所他把因為申報健保法的要求所以他申報等於是到我們的健保資料庫這裡來然後我就會依據這樣的資料我知道了意思是說你們健保資料庫的資料被違規使用了"},{"start":28280.704,"end":28299.362,"text":"所以醫院不算是你們健保資料庫因為還沒進來醫院那邊有他的病歷資料等等的他的範圍會比我多他是屬於符合各支法那邊所規範的不管是公務機關會非公務機關都會是各支法有沒有處分有沒有行政處分那個機關"},{"start":28301.696,"end":28327.426,"text":"她有分公務機關跟非公務機關都包含了都包含在裡面對啦好啦我知道啦這個法律的名稱是健保資料庫啦我懂了啊那剛剛講copy你說絕對不會發生奇怪你們當初這一條是要幹嘛的啦當初你們寫這一條條款是要做什麼的啦其實原來這一條是真的要處理光碟啦我跟妳說光碟妳現在說處理光碟啊為什麼因為"},{"start":28332.082,"end":28351.012,"text":"因為處理光碟怎麼會寫成這樣子啊後面24條怎麼會寫成那樣子然後健保署的確後面有在追但是就是為了怕怪異漏腕啦就是說如果真的它沒有銷毀那我們有這一條可以來弄法啦那是我作弊了你 你才這樣說的當時你都不是這樣說的"},{"start":28353.914,"end":28370.46,"text":"因為我提出這個質疑了然後你們就說對對對我們22條就是否你講的那個質疑可是我還沒提出質疑以前你講的不是這一個點所以我真的很不懂你們22條當初是要做什麼的你要誠實的說怎麼現在變成整條刪除呢如果是要整條刪除應該是22條把你們新增的24條置換到這裡來"},{"start":28382.079,"end":28407.521,"text":"可是這裡,這裡是可以罰到一千萬耶你們現在後面給我到賣公帖沒有處分的是只到一千萬喔?您到底能抽二十二條紙要幹嘛的?你也不知道放二十四條嗎?你二十四條多少?沒有,就是後面要調了對,要怎麼調?要調條紙的啊放到二十二就可以了,為什麼要二十?調紙就有"},{"start":28412.81,"end":28432.815,"text":"你為什麼一定要22條要拿掉對啊為什麼一定要拿掉你這麼突然拿掉我們自私立場我們就開始懷疑有鬼了你沒有拿掉我們無感你現在說要拿掉我就開始懷疑有鬼因為有鬼他們才會自私立場去有魔性的虎心應該是你們很危險"},{"start":28436.387,"end":28454.653,"text":"這條保留不可以刪除我們稍後再來看 等一下再嚴刑拷打22條條文還是先保留 好不好 先保留然後我們現在來剛剛19條還沒有宣讀嘛19條 先處理 對對 因為你們可以看一看"},{"start":28486.106,"end":28496.73,"text":"為重大公共利益資金風險評估及受政府機關或投資公共衛生醫療科技效益評估前兩款、三款"},{"start":28505.447,"end":28516.589,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28536.107,"end":28539.39,"text":"你們剛剛怎麼都沒有處理好第19條啊,我還要跟你修"},{"start":28574.582,"end":28583.47,"text":"你們25條有處理了嗎?對啊,有沒有什麼建議要修正文字?剛剛有討論到保留嗎?"},{"start":28609.589,"end":28609.85,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":28616.977,"end":28639.646,"text":"好 各位委員 有的在處理19條 其他的聽我宣告一下我們開會是到5點嘛 對不對那因為條文只剩下兩條比較大家在討論嘛 還有四個互代決議所以徵求大家意見是不是我們今天就把整個法案處理完成了好不好 那有可能超過5點半還是 超過5點我們還是處理完成"},{"start":28641.327,"end":28652.359,"text":"五點半可能不會啦,抱歉那也不一定啦因為自己提出來自己要消滅掉,有問題危險"},{"start":28667.843,"end":28684.03,"text":"韓國瑜議員韓國瑜議員韓國瑜議員"},{"start":28722.696,"end":28723.557,"text":"總統發布...現在是...這邊...這邊..."},{"start":28742.13,"end":28748.016,"text":"今天要叫他天津的總統主席要上帝上帝的祖先現在是說你老公就天津了要天津 大家都不能睡覺你叫郭敏來天津讓我們三郭敏來天津我們天津的主席要上帝的祖先"},{"start":28765.344,"end":28766.945,"text":"你們第二訴條有沒有處理?"},{"start":28772.995,"end":28773.135,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":28787.312,"end":28811.299,"text":"對我而言對我自己的樣貌,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,"},{"start":28842.661,"end":28846.525,"text":"可以嗎歷史條第一項及第三項"},{"start":28851.96,"end":28865.89,"text":"做完機關會保險有提供支援國家安全、民主人民生命、身體保險都讓其不成威脅將機關會保險對外提供特定目的"},{"start":28873.197,"end":28875.858,"text":"我只問說這個第10條第10項是什麼?怎樣?剛剛19條列的"},{"start":28903.964,"end":28930.558,"text":"第一項政府機關及行政法人執行法定職務申請特定目的外利用健保資料"},{"start":28931.721,"end":28943.332,"text":"因已書面向被保險人提出其取資健保資料之運用及管理,應依各機關及行政法人所依據之法律辦理。"},{"start":28963.414,"end":28988.214,"text":"這第十條第一項跟第三項司法機關因偵查、審判或執行法定之務要取健保資料應依訴訟法規範理檢查機關執行法規職務取得健保資料依法規範理這可以講"},{"start":28994.557,"end":28997.78,"text":"好,19條怎樣?可以嗎?溝通完成了吧?"},{"start":29025.236,"end":29033.921,"text":"第一項跟第三項19條是說第一項跟第三項剛才說第一項跟第三項"},{"start":29060.215,"end":29072.339,"text":"原來是寫依其他法律啦那我們現在是把它明定成第十條第一項跟第三項因為第一項我有講到政府機關構第三項是講司法院跟監察院啦所以這個就把它明定進來"},{"start":29073.939,"end":29096.334,"text":"這個是法定職長所以他不能退出至於現在的第二款跟第三款原則上第二款跟第三款其實都是為了因應有緊急的狀況比如說國家發生戰爭或者是說前幾年的COVID的那種特殊疫情"},{"start":29097.434,"end":29122.552,"text":"那個部分呢我們就因為為了國家整體的民眾的身體安全所以呢我們必須我們不能讓他退出啦因為退出的話比如說以COVID為例那我們要分析這些疫苗打有沒有用我都沒有資料可以做分析所以是這樣的精神所以第二條第三條那現在的各執法其實有部分的法條也都是維持這兩種寫法啦其他的法律也有所以第19條"},{"start":29126.223,"end":29140.934,"text":"你現在講的,他現在後面在修了?增加一個程序上的法官,增加一個T2和T3,多一點程序上的法官你沒有辦法法官的話,至少要公告給大家都知道"},{"start":29151.704,"end":29157.248,"text":"我們在急迫性那因為國家戰爭的時候會需要健保資料庫的健保我們都沒"},{"start":29168.337,"end":29193.089,"text":"主席很不好意思,我第19條要求保留那我們再回去想,我第19條要求保留好謝謝因為這個範圍,這個是外界矚目的條文你讓一個人退出再把他拉進來,我覺得要大家好好想一想我們請求保留,謝謝市長現在這樣你也看一看,陳委員你也看一看"},{"start":29199.232,"end":29207.784,"text":"又再修啦,你看一下,看這樣會不會動?這條很關鍵啦,非常關鍵所以這條要非常審慎"},{"start":29216.762,"end":29233.794,"text":"以後整個法界討論的重點都會在這一條這一條老實說我覺得有一點真的是很困難困難的地方就是說國家安全還有人民生命財產的急迫危險當然我們就是說這樣不是你說了算"},{"start":29234.754,"end":29260.384,"text":"但是說真正碰到的時候到底是什麼狀況理論上應該是採取法律保留原則你碰到的時候應該是定出一個法律你定出一個法律我們就遵循了就都不可以退出但是有沒有那種急迫到急迫到連定法律都來不及的國家安全的狀況連定法律都程序太慢的狀況所以我才會想說"},{"start":29262.335,"end":29279.282,"text":"那至少應該是什麼啦如果可以的話我都希望是二三款就應健行的程序最好都是法律訂出來最簡單可是有時候如果是緊急狀況有沒有可能沒有辦法來得及的話至少應該做到"},{"start":29281.055,"end":29308.8,"text":"你申請了機關你給大家說 再公告給大家知道到底是為什麼 這個需求是怎麼樣所以我經常講說其實這個責任就是土法不足以自行有時候還有政治責任可以問責這樣如果不完美的話當然可以再討論那這是我能想像的這個是妥協後的我的狀況就是我想不出來老實說最完美的我想不出來"},{"start":29309.775,"end":29321.572,"text":"或許大家可以再到院會保留協商的時候再繼續討論主席我也個人主張就保留這下其他可以出文會就這下保留沒關係啦沒關係啦沒關係啦但是"},{"start":29324.257,"end":29324.937,"text":"主席要跟委員報告"},{"start":29351.993,"end":29369.204,"text":"這個大家的爭議點主要是在第二款跟第三款那麼擔心它過於模糊啦那這個本來是說要有一個會議的審查可是又擔心這個執議會啊那麼不足以承擔這樣的審查的這個任務"},{"start":29372.086,"end":29386.676,"text":"所以應該限縮可以使用的機關構並且要求他要很具體的由他來自己引述當時候為何需要來使用"},{"start":29387.296,"end":29413.579,"text":"沒有就是人家那個退出之後還要把他拉回來的這樣的一個資料所以他的使用的目的是什麼必要性什麼而且要對外揭露啦最主要就是要對外揭露因為這個國家安全人民生命財產的急迫危險那麼以對這個公眾揭露的方式所以來確保他不會被濫"},{"start":29415.581,"end":29432.638,"text":"隨便的行使這樣的禁止退出應該這個是禁止退出所以才會跟蘇貞委員討論之後用這樣的文字來呈現他的程序"},{"start":29434.185,"end":29453.066,"text":"對啦那我再補充就是我剛才講過如果最想要的應該是請求的機關構其實是必須立一個法律採取法律保留原則才是最好的但我就是不知道有沒有那種狀況是非常緊急的而必要的或者是我們可以拆成兩個就是說"},{"start":29455.288,"end":29479.72,"text":"如果可以的話非急迫到那麼急迫的話應該還是要以法律保留原則而為之因為你這個是完全剝奪了當事人就是我們的這個事後控制權這個也是正式憲判裡面最核心的價值憲判最核心就是說我們的不管事前那個事後退出其實都要講我們的事後控制權"},{"start":29480.94,"end":29500.55,"text":"但是你把他剝奪掉了不准人家退出的狀況這個在他必須相當的正當性相當的急迫性相當的有國家安全的疑慮可是這就不能腐爛的使用的時候我們到底要怎麼規範"},{"start":29502.131,"end":29521.651,"text":"所以我也是覺得說可以保留到協商的時候再繼續討論也可以跟委員報告說如果他他比如說有特別條例以我們COVID為例有特別條例的話有特別條例他就會是第一款他就會回到第十條去試用他有特別條例了"},{"start":29523.052,"end":29547.537,"text":"那麼但是像上次Covid是還沒有特別條例之前如果他真的有需要就會用到第三款的用法那就是緊急急迫對 他的必要性跟這個就是法律還沒有完成以前還沒有特別條例還沒有立好以前那他就緊急急迫要先用這是他的必要性"},{"start":29551.859,"end":29570.092,"text":"阿剛才講的國家安全這個可以想像你們可以想像的你們這條線路的條文是為了抄來的因為健保資料庫跟國家安全你們是哪裡有擊破到不准人家擁有事後控制權不要說戰爭 戰爭的時候要看血型 輸血 輸什麼型哪有可能真的是這樣為了輸血看血型"},{"start":29582.093,"end":29606.363,"text":"這個是這樣啦我才說再提醒一下行政機關自己提出來的草案自己應該要有很有把握的一個認知跟說明因為你原有條文是依其他法律主管機關或保險人有提供之義務那我們當然有委員建議就是把它改為依第十條第一項及第三項規定"},{"start":29608.233,"end":29634.252,"text":"這個當然是更明確的在講這個啦但是相對的也是說起來算是縮小案例啦去認定啦不是行政機關可以授權用更廣況的這樣去處理這沒有對錯問題啦所以我是想說你可能這個事情你們當時訂這個草案的時候應該你們就知道你們的想像是什麼啊對啊 國家安全的必要性到底想像是什麼這還沒什麼想像啦 這說起來就是草的啦"},{"start":29636.173,"end":29638.655,"text":"所以其實各支法上有類似的規定啦那當然"},{"start":29661.163,"end":29674.258,"text":"這個健保資料也是個資法所以才會把這個文字上先以那你們去查一下個資法訂這一條所想像的不過因為個資法範疇比較大我馬上就要看"},{"start":29676.781,"end":29695.13,"text":"要叫這人這人 叫什麼名字那他的戶籍資料 可能要緊急聯絡他的家人有需要可是我們這裡講的是健保資料庫顯然叫做二手資料所以他會連結到緊急非常急迫的國家安全的我真的是"},{"start":29699.513,"end":29721.631,"text":"這條是講當事人要請求停止但是我覺得他是研究上的二手資料啦就研究上他是二手資料剛剛跟委員也說明如果這個是由政府機關構來處理的政府機關構他是要只能按照第十條有法律規定這個在處理還沒有法律規定他說沒有特別條例的時候他就用這個性格"},{"start":29724.033,"end":29741.622,"text":"要不然他就法律規定按照第一款第一款就結束了啊所以二三款就是他法律還沒有完成制度之前有這個目的有這個目的跟必要性就是用二三款所以我問你說跟國家安全有的想像的課題會是什麼啊"},{"start":29744.35,"end":29766.26,"text":"但是因為在健保資料庫這裡你能想像的連結會是什麼樣的需求因為這個是我再講一次整個憲法法庭的判決裡面就是說我們即便沒有高強度的事前同意權你也要給人家事後的退出權這叫事後控制權我個人的資料我要擁有完整的事後控制權"},{"start":29767.5,"end":29794.412,"text":"但你這個條文重要是因為我剝奪掉了你的事後控制權你沒有所謂的個人的權利因為國家還有公共利益比你個人權利更重要那你剝奪人家這個所以我要定這樣這麼高強度的時候你要給我想像說這個東西有可能是什麼為什麼我想像啦如果今天有一個生化武器"},{"start":29796.134,"end":29803.384,"text":"在井水下毒一開始看起來像疾病但是有可能會危及國家安全"},{"start":29808.548,"end":29831.791,"text":"這個比書寫的血型更有正當性了那報告委員我再說明第三個危害那個身體因為之前陳時中政委他自己有舉一個例子就是說因為我們會面對有那個重大傷亡事件那重大傷亡事件的時候呢因為這些人我要辨識他這些人是誰死亡的是誰那他要去"},{"start":29832.592,"end":29855.349,"text":"只能用此模去辨認幫助罹難者協助身份鑑定那這樣子我們比較具體可以想像的時候我們就想說如果遇到這種狀況的話那我們就增加了這個第二項這樣的一個東西夠不夠就是我先告訴大家了我要這樣做了我很緊急了我為什麼要這麼做為什麼這麼必要"},{"start":29857.29,"end":29886.023,"text":"那我有公告給大家知道了我覺得至少因為你們本來沒有這個程序嘛那後來我覺得至少要有這個程序那還必須要才有什麼程序我個人是想不出來啦但是大家你們有意見的話可以再討論我是覺得他這樣講我就可以想像的出來是什麼情境那我們的法律上的要求這樣夠不夠這樣子就比較可以理解大家比較可以理解啦"},{"start":29888.72,"end":29907.691,"text":"就是建議先保留好不好OK因為你這樣修起來也會抵觸到你之前的前面幾個條文所以可能請行政機關再把它弄清楚一點整個規劃是比較正確的好剛剛有保留22條文那22條怎麼辦22條就給他保留到院會再討論好留著保留好那接下來"},{"start":29918.171,"end":29947.567,"text":"第二十五條保留條文第二十五條行政計畫是希望照原條文通過是不是對不對各位有沒有其他意見第二十五條第二十五條的部分我們只是過度調整就這個條例施行前因核准特定目的外利用的話我還可以這個是那個法律不受既往原則啦OK好"},{"start":29949.656,"end":29969.888,"text":"那應該沒有問題吧各位同仁有沒有意見信貸保護原則這是信貸保護原則應該沒有意見了好第二十五條各位同仁沒有意見我們就照二十五就是這個沒有光碟光碟另外一條了嗎第二十五條我們就照院版的條文來通過好謝謝好現在要來處理附帶決議共識案請一併宣讀"},{"start":29978.208,"end":30001.962,"text":"那個那個那個那個報告主席剛剛那個光碟的那一條有沒有要不要修正動議進去那個淑芬委員要用修正動議嗎因為本來沒有這一條嗎要用修正動議沒有就這裡拿來簽好了我們先宣讀婚納決議啦你們修正動議等一下送上我們再宣讀好不好來請宣讀"},{"start":30003.723,"end":30030.688,"text":"第一案 建請衛生福利部於本法三讀通過後持續研議整體衛生福利資料管理法制化之可能性與時程並請於本法實施一年後向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交衛生福利資料管理法制化可行性與立法時程規劃之書面報告提案人委員王振旭 連署人委員林月琴 黃秀芳第二案"},{"start":30031.588,"end":30054.98,"text":"建請衛生福利部針對全民健康保險資料管理機制除法定之審議會外除在執法或相關規範中設有審議小組等相關審議機制其成員或外部學者專家仍應納入醫療服務提供者之代表提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴黃秀芳第三案"},{"start":30056.261,"end":30070.263,"text":"全民健康保險資料管理條例草案第十一條申請書之內容應至少在明下列事項一 申請者名稱地址代表人姓名等資訊二 執行資料特地目的外利用之相關人員資訊"},{"start":30071.425,"end":30091.05,"text":"三所申請之資料範圍類型及期間四申請之法規依據五資料利用之特定目的必要性及預期效益六資料處理方式預期可能風險風險管控與安全維護措施提案人委員王振旭聯署人委員林月琴林淑芬"},{"start":30091.67,"end":30110.243,"text":"第四案全民健康保險資料管理條例草案第14條鎖定主管機關及保險人應定其公開之資訊應至少包含主管機關或保險人決定通過之健保資料特定目的外利用計劃通過案件之申請書審查會會議記錄及相關資料資議會會議記錄及相關資料"},{"start":30115.367,"end":30132.586,"text":"申請者於特定目的外利用計畫執行完畢後其利用結果報告或研議成果等相關資訊提案人 委員 王振旭 連署人 委員 林月琴 林淑芬 宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們現在針對第一案請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":30134.841,"end":30145.581,"text":"第一案沒有意見好沒有意見那第一案我們就照王委員所提的附帶決議通過那接下來請第二案請行政機關表示意見第二案是那個法定的審議會"},{"start":30148.007,"end":30171.599,"text":"因為我們剛剛的條文都已經維持諮議會所以這裡我是不是建議建請衛生福利部針對全民健康保險資料管理機制除法定之諮議會外若在此法或相關規範中設有審查會等相關審議機制其成員與外部學者專家仍應納入醫療服務提供者之代表"},{"start":30178.41,"end":30186.155,"text":"這一個部分基本上是審查會不是執意會所以如果要調整的話應該是改成審查會"},{"start":30187.245,"end":30214.156,"text":"所以就出法訂之審查會對不對 審查會外若在此外或相關公關中設有審查小組 審議小組應該就不用改了嗎它是指審查會 不是審議會不是我們原先所認定的審議會這是審查會 不是質疑會好 那就是審查會我們還是會納入醫療服務提供者的代表如果簡單的講是"},{"start":30218.853,"end":30232.052,"text":"王議員您的意思就是我那個審查會因為我那邊有主持人有專家社會公正人士等專家學者這個部分是不是成員的或外部學者專家應該要納入醫療服務提供者的代表"},{"start":30232.512,"end":30241.638,"text":"我修訂一下 請大家在最後確認就是說建請處罰定之諮議會諮議會是在審查會這邊是改成諮議會那後面的審議小組是審查會的審查審議小組OK是好"},{"start":30270.149,"end":30283.892,"text":"好,那這樣是同意,是文職就照剛剛的建議這樣通過,是不是"},{"start":30286.096,"end":30307.241,"text":"好謝謝來繼續處理第三個附帶決議請行政機關表示意見沒有意見沒有意見好那第三我們就照王政訓委員所提案的附帶決議通過第四案請行政機關表示意見第四案遵照辦理行政機關遵照辦理遵照辦理好那就照王委員所提的附帶決議通過好謝謝"},{"start":30311.55,"end":30321.014,"text":"那我們繼續來處理剛剛有在所提的修正動議提醒一下我們是保留19條跟22條7條文均已經有會討論通過所以有針對要徵修或調整的請要"},{"start":30329.779,"end":30344.241,"text":"把條次弄清楚25條剛剛是已經通過了喔對對那跟主席跟委員報告就是說把那個在那個一百零幾年間有釋出的那些"},{"start":30345.302,"end":30373.779,"text":"光碟的健保資料把它擬定要銷毀所以就新增了25條的第二項跟第三項所以在本條例實施前以取得之健保資料因予銷毀但是如果是政府習慣過執行法定職務不再實現那違反前項規定位於銷毀者處心台幣200萬元以上1000萬元以下不是不是不是剛剛是25條已經通過了對啊你要把它放在25條的第二項第三項這樣是怪怪的"},{"start":30377.139,"end":30401.136,"text":"對本來是要新增一個24條要做修正動議可是因為那個時候是考慮22條拿掉所以條次上就會變成有一個空出來的24條可是22條又保留剛剛討論是保留所以我們就把它併在25條它也是屬於那個落日25條其實就是信賴保護原則在本條例施行前的一併處理一種是那個"},{"start":30404.358,"end":30428.831,"text":"合法合規使用當時候東西合法合規可是呢他後面都有一些這個救濟的措施好了各位同仁有沒有意見如果沒有我們就25條再提出來修正了對不對好再提修正都議就是政略第二第三啦來通過好OK一樣保留這個條文就是19條跟22條啦對19跟22好謝謝"},{"start":30433.479,"end":30448.798,"text":"現在作為下決議第一全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等七案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論時本案由劉昭吉委員建國補充說明那請問本案是否需交由黨團協商要不要"},{"start":30451.754,"end":30468.705,"text":"好謝謝要交由黨人協商本法案條次及援引條次授權議事人員調整立法說明授權行政機關提供好那本次會議我們到此結束現在散會謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":30470.35,"end":30470.37,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16787","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ee60931de57f1aa368bd03a951da4504b418e1797692e3a0d171a14f134cdd7215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-26T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-26T12:38:00+08:00","duration":14866,"影片長度":"04:07:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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正式會員會籍隸屬澳紐及太平洋地區APOR深獲IOI認同及肯定經多方努力並積極爭取下114年APOR年會主辦權成功由該院獲得"},{"start":2223.286,"end":2226.348,"text":"並將於114年9月3日至5日舉辦所需經費750萬元除進行會員會議外亦將舉辦研討會、交流、監察及人權相關議題"},{"start":2240.436,"end":2256.075,"text":"本項經費源於納編該月一百一十四年度預算案議事業務工作計畫向下為該科目預算案原編列一千八百五十六萬兩千元包括本項經費七百五十萬元"},{"start":2257.877,"end":2272.652,"text":"經大院審議後全數刪減監察院因本會議舉辦時間在即急需辦理相關前置作業為避免影響國際聲譽原依預算法第22條第二項規定報請大院同意動之"},{"start":2277.596,"end":2300.286,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金支應基於本案有助於提升我國國際能見度避免長期深耕 致國際交流成果中斷敬請各位委員指教及支持 謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請監察院完代理秘書長王貞華進行報告 謝謝"},{"start":2311.559,"end":2324.976,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好那監察院做相關的口頭報告監察院的推動國際監察事務到今天有30年積極加強與世界各國監察機構及國際監察組織的"},{"start":2327.299,"end":2355.099,"text":"交流合作1993年有感於國際監察交流的重要性源於1994年8月以中華民國監察院的名義加入倡導監察及人權理念的國際監察組織以下稱IOI成為具有投票權的正式會員會籍是隸屬於澳紐及太平洋地區以下稱APOR"},{"start":2356.32,"end":2359.943,"text":"監察院推動國際事務不遺餘力積極參與IOI及APRO區域會議及活動擴展國際監察活動空間藉由實際的行動來鞏固監察院與IOI的會員權益為善盡會員的義務本院總共參與"},{"start":2377.259,"end":2397.228,"text":"出席IOI的世界會議有8次那April的年會有18次而且拜會了重要的監察及人權機構擴大國際參與另外邀請國際監察領域重要的人士來訪推展監察外交April是IOI"},{"start":2398.509,"end":2421.984,"text":"狹下的六個區域組織之一總共有18個會員國每一到兩年會舉辦區域的年會是由會員國來輪流主辦112年10月份本院的代表團赴歐洲出席April年會及維多利亞監察使公署50週年慶與April的會議"},{"start":2423.625,"end":2446.995,"text":"會議上面爭取而且獲到同意由本院第三度來主辦April年會顯見IOI的執委會跟區域的會員對監察院的肯定第30次屆April的年會預計是在今年9月3號到5號在台北舉行他的相關的議程包括April的會員會議還有一個"},{"start":2449.356,"end":2471.756,"text":"人權的國際研討會今年的主題我們暫定成監察與人權之多元實踐及發展另外還有文化參訪這次邀請的對象當然包括April的全體會員IOI的重要成員日本韓國或者是太平洋地區友邦等監察人權機關以及國內外監察人權的"},{"start":2476.181,"end":2487.673,"text":"領域的人士目前已有多位APRO的會員與國際監察人士表達願意來台而且要擔任講座的意願目前還在積極洽邀國際觀察員等外賓"},{"start":2490.856,"end":2506.432,"text":"有關於經費的預估為了周妥來辦理37年April年會有關經費的支出項目包含三個部分第一個部分是國外講座、貴賓、會員的機票、算數、交通費等"},{"start":2507.113,"end":2517.36,"text":"第二個部分是有關於廠租的佈置專業的人力同步的口譯等設備費第三是會議資料的編譯會議實錄的編印等等合計約新台幣750萬元"},{"start":2522.863,"end":2528.369,"text":"近年來國際的機票持續上漲國內的時數物價等費用不斷提高有關經費的編列跟100年、108年的我們實際辦理APPLE的編列數數額是相當的接近相關的費用都會準節公帑來辦理"},{"start":2543.886,"end":2562.05,"text":"以上就是警舊本院來辦理37屆April年會做檢要的報告監察院長期深耕在國際監察領域深獲肯定是得來不易的外交成果為了維護我國的國際聲譽並善盡會員的義務敬請各位委員支持謝謝"},{"start":2568.156,"end":2588.828,"text":"好 謝謝現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告依每位出席委員花言的時間是五分鐘必要的時候延長一分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是三分鐘我們今天上午十點截止花言的一個登記現在依登記的順序請登記第一位的林德虎委員質詢"},{"start":2603.107,"end":2609.374,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請那個副主席長陳副主席長好陳副主席長"},{"start":2615.99,"end":2639.946,"text":"委員好副主席因為今天這個監察院辦理研討會的經費不敷審查的案子行政院含的說明內容為什麼是依據預算法第22條第二項規定來辦理為什麼不是依據預算法第70條的規定來辦理那我請副主席你做說明"},{"start":2640.626,"end":2663.719,"text":"是 為垂尋的事項我在這裡做個報告就是說因為監察院今天所提的它的源頭是因為在立法院預算審議的時候是被刪減的所以我們預算法的規定它為了 刪減以後就可以動用預備金是不是那就是說我們預算法的規定它有分前段跟後段前段就基於尊重"},{"start":2664.699,"end":2693.328,"text":"立法院預算的審議所以規定他不能動資第二預備金但是他後段是就是說如果是原來刪減的立法院有同意的話那他就可以動資第二預備金吳審議長我請教你預算法第22條第二項內容是立法院審議刪除或刪減至預算項目及金額不得動資預備金但法定經費或立法院同意者"},{"start":2694.048,"end":2705.62,"text":"不在此限那我請問戶主記長今天這個審查案的經費到底是不是法定的經費是不是就是說他是"},{"start":2706.656,"end":2728.406,"text":"法定經費或經立法院同意的所以他是屬於或後面的立法院同意如果是法定經費換為基於維持法定機關正常運作以及執行法定職務之經費如果停止執行會造成影響整個機關的存續"},{"start":2730.868,"end":2737.277,"text":"那麼應該可以動資預備金不需要審查反之啊如果不是法定經費的範圍那請問因為目前齁"},{"start":2741.636,"end":2770.342,"text":"整個這個憲法法庭啊已經受理監察院所提的114年中央政府總預算案關於刪減監察院稅出預算進行違憲的審查那我請問副主席長你認為立法院適合對憲法法庭違憲審查中的案件進行實質的審查嗎現在在憲法法庭喔"},{"start":2772.157,"end":2801.056,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為那個去釋憲那個是釋憲的那個那釋憲出來到最後的結果呢但是現在議會已經到了預算執行這個階段那眼看昨天就要辦理了本案在立法院進行審查經過三讀決議喔如果又是維持原決議也就是不通過動資預備金那麼行政院監察院到底要怎麼做"},{"start":2802.579,"end":2807.756,"text":"難道要再呼籲要提釋憲法法庭的審查嗎你告訴我"},{"start":2809.788,"end":2831.46,"text":"我們現在就是依預算法的這個規定來請求原來三檢的大院看能不能同意但是現在在憲法法庭啊還沒有到最後的決定啊對不對但是如果一切都要等候法庭如果憲法法庭違憲審查結論和立法院動用預備金審查不同的結果的時候那應該要聽誰的對不對"},{"start":2834.898,"end":2852.643,"text":"這樣你了解吧憲法法庭到最後裁定的結果跟我們現在要是通過的背道而馳那到底要聽誰的跟委員報告因為現在我們已經在執行當中了如果一切都需要等到憲法法庭可能很多的但是現在還在那裡啊那個副審計長"},{"start":2854.11,"end":2871.74,"text":"副主席講預算法第22條第二項和第三項增列行之有年但是條約裡面認識用法應該要有所依據而不是只照字面意義就認為有所本114年總預算在3月21號總統已經公布實行"},{"start":2876.303,"end":2899,"text":"在憲法法庭違憲審查結果還沒有出來前目前是屬於法定預算我請問副主席長今天的審查案要動之第二一倍金主計總數是依據哪種實質的條件認為符合第二項符合第二一倍金的必要動之你告訴我"},{"start":2899.76,"end":2926.07,"text":"我們就是因為當時認為三檢以後自然來行那因為二十二條就賦予說如果三檢的立法院同意可以動資第二預備金所以就依這個法所規範的程序來提出申請其次 主席 那個副主席長請問你動資第二預備金是不是需要符合華麗明確性的原則才能讓預備金動資釋出有名 是不是"},{"start":2927.473,"end":2947.291,"text":"我覺得這個條文主要還是在於說立法院刪減了那如果因為情勢變跟立法院同意他動之所以他概念上就是原來刪減的這個大院他是如果同意他還是可以動之還是只要機關需要宋家立法院同意就可以"},{"start":2948.952,"end":2963.047,"text":"是這樣的嗎?沒有,要經立法院同意那再其次,預算法第70條對第二預備金動資就已經明文規定我請問副主席講,行政院以預算法第22條第二項為依據難道預算法第70條形容據文嗎?"},{"start":2968.634,"end":2983.794,"text":"70條喔 可以護士不看嗎不是 70條是行政院同意動之送立法院備查那22條大院監督的強度比較強要經立法院同意那個今天喔 我是認為啦 主計長不敢來喔"},{"start":2984.855,"end":3006.799,"text":"要你出來這個其實我們就打個問號啦你照理講陳淑芝主計長應該要來面對不是不是對不對不是不敢來是剛好有另外沒有那回事啦基本上我們就是依法來提出申請主計為主對不對我時間到了我不就不耽擱啦我認為你要審慎啦好請委員支持謝謝是謝謝德湖委員"},{"start":3012.165,"end":3015.647,"text":"那個接著我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢副組長那個組長身體不舒服你可以替他代為說明主席麻煩請監察院王代理秘書長監察院王代理秘書長"},{"start":3047.455,"end":3061.77,"text":"今天為了這個750萬的這個要動用第二預備金喔立法院專門財政委員會專門開這個會這個還不是只有我們委員會同意就可以了還要到院會去這功成好大"},{"start":3063.038,"end":3080.194,"text":"為了750萬所發揮的這些行政成本恐怕就已經佔了相當的比例了你看這麼多的立法委員要開一天的會然後立法院要為這個開一天的會然後要送到院會 全院的委員會來決議你不覺得這樣子有點功成浩大嗎"},{"start":3083.822,"end":3094.628,"text":"報告委員監察院的確是有時間上的急迫性然後真的有時虛那為了國家的形象所以會這樣子的提出走這樣子的預算法的程序"},{"start":3095.612,"end":3120.473,"text":"我就是提醒你觀察到最後才想要詳細的了解這個預算為什麼會被刪掉啊你們原來在本院在審理預算的時候你們委員會是內政司法法治委員會那司法法治委員會在審查預算的時候你們沒有跟他好好報告嗎你們沒有好好跟他們說明嗎為什麼這些委員要刪除你們這個預算呢可不可以說明一下"},{"start":3124.772,"end":3145.808,"text":"跟委員說明 監察院的預算是在立法院的司法及法治委員會當時我們是提出來把這個相關的預算是放在議事的業務裡面總共剛剛有1800多萬然後在委員會審查的時候是沒有任何的結果就是保留送院會處理"},{"start":3146.929,"end":3167.195,"text":"我的意思是說在審查過程中因為我也在本院在立法院已經二十幾年了審查的過程中是我們這需要預算的單位要很積極的跟該委會的委員做溝通說明說這一筆經費對我們確實有急需有很需要你們有去做這個詳盡的說明嗎"},{"start":3169.532,"end":3188.101,"text":"跟我說明在審預算的過程中當時是我們的前秘書長李秘書長都有做非常詳細的說明然後我們也有特別強調本筆經費的重要性跟急迫性所以在委員會是全案保留送院會那院會的時候"},{"start":3191.297,"end":3197.504,"text":"在提出要刪減在院會這個階層提出要刪減這個預算的提案的時候你們有沒有機會來跟這個立法院的黨團各個黨團做說明做報告啊"},{"start":3207.584,"end":3224.659,"text":"在院會審查的時候原則上我們沒有這樣子的機會再做說明所以就是這個預算你們當初因為有需要所以你們編列了那編列送到本院來之後給司法法制委會審查你們的預算的時候"},{"start":3225.643,"end":3237.392,"text":"他是有經過詳細的說明但是全案保留送院會那院會提出三檢動議的這個過程中幾乎也沒有協討的機會嘛你們連講話的機會都沒有嘛這樣就預算就亂七八糟就亂砍一堆啦請問監察院的這些經費被砍到你們的理副院長有來跟我說明啊說被砍了90幾%啊"},{"start":3250.914,"end":3259.147,"text":"他說企務監察院就沒有辦法運作啊李副院長跟我們市立法院的老同事啊那你們以前的李秘書長也是我們的老同事那這李副院長"},{"start":3263.777,"end":3283.474,"text":"是我地方上我的朋友啊他就遇到我就跟我講說啊這個根本監察院就運作不下去啊那目前除了這750萬因為你們要辦這個世界的會年會的會議你認為有急需之外那其他的呢其他的監察院怎麼辦還是監察院這個機關所有的人都領薪水就好了什麼事情都不用做啊"},{"start":3285.987,"end":3308.966,"text":"跟委員說明監察院的確是相關的業務費用是佔了96%那所以是因為我們是憲政機關相關的監察業務甚至其他的法定的業務比如說像陽光司法國家人權等等的都必須要落實運作所以監察院在3月份的時候有提出"},{"start":3309.947,"end":3309.967,"text":"導聽外"},{"start":3331.598,"end":3341.916,"text":"李副院長跟我講說電費只有繳到二月後面都是用欠的那你打算怎麼還台電這筆錢難怪台電都被這些政府機關欠電費難怪人家付不出來人家台電會虧損有要補給人家利息嗎"},{"start":3345.421,"end":3369.613,"text":"更為說明 有關於本院到114年5月底我們總共已經欠費1150多萬元那其中有關於電費的部分呢 也是324萬我一個建議啦 這個你聽聽看啦假設這個機關不能運作 大家電都關起來也不要來上班然後在家裡睡覺等著領薪水就好啦因為這是 這是立法院把你們刪除的啊 又不是你們願意的啊不然"},{"start":3373.394,"end":3401.082,"text":"大家去立法院 去監察院開電費 連電梯都沒有電可以用啊不能坐電梯啊 還不能開啊節省經費 四日電費 電都關起來 冷氣不要吹對不對我們現在要不要廢除監察院 這是憲政層次的問題但是如果它事實上存在用這樣的方式對待我覺得這是不合理的啊真的沒道理啊 所以預算亂砍"},{"start":3402.734,"end":3404.655,"text":"面對大罷免才在那邊大緊張所以我就覺得說不能這樣子對外中華民國憲法啦你要修憲 走修憲的程序來嘛而不是立法院去侵奪其他各區各院的權責嘛我們立法院沒有比較大啊大家是平行機構啊也沒有鄰家在你們之上啊也沒有我比你大的問題啊"},{"start":3425.114,"end":3447.523,"text":"我不知道這樣講你這樣不贊成那希望今天你這個經費能夠通過啦如果通不過我覺得就看開一點啦回去跟李鴻鈞報告啦所以就是不要給我們過啊所以我們大家是不是就是解散回家然後一樣照領洗水就好這是你剛講說是我的建議啊好不好好謝謝你好謝謝秉瑞接著請賴思寶委員質詢請在召委"},{"start":3458.963,"end":3463.267,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請監察院的副秘書長請副秘書長還有那個主計總處的副主計長也一起請副主計長"},{"start":3480.643,"end":3504.538,"text":"我想今天這筆錢也就750萬而且是中華民國的監察院辦的國際的會議我支持而且我希望就是大家不要再協商了就直接給他直接給他這個出去了可是我要強調的剛才有委員不斷的批評什麼什麼大家倒帶一下"},{"start":3506.906,"end":3522.146,"text":"我在立法院這麼久的時間這一次的總預算審查是第一次有史以來第一次沒有朝野協商朝野協商每一次都是柯建民在那裡胡說八道盤古開天開始講起一講講幾個小時沒辦法進行"},{"start":3524.91,"end":3540.021,"text":"台灣來產生這些 台灣要負很大責任啦台灣要負很大責任 否則這個朝野犧牲的話你保留在朝野犧牲一定過的啦因為這是提升中華民國的能見度提升台灣的能見度 沒有理由反對啊"},{"start":3540.902,"end":3557.209,"text":"沒有理由反對他所以我先講我的立場就是我支持這一個但是我要想問的就是你的法源在哪裡法源根據什麼法法源為什麼要用第二義北京"},{"start":3562.24,"end":3587.617,"text":"就是說因為第二預備金當時這個22條第二項的規定他首先先尊重立法院審議就是說如果立法院刪減了就不能再動之第二預備金然後後面加了但書就是說保留一個彈性如果是立法院同意的話那就不再出現所以是有但書的就是真的有需要你提出來"},{"start":3589.118,"end":3616.281,"text":"說服立委們基本上是可以的可以用的這個清清楚楚喔沒有說是在那裡啊啊啊開始就很清楚嘛這個現在已經都清楚知道了嘛這個柯建民在去年的1月13日選完之後1月15日就發發想起大罷免偷跑半年前就偷跑明明規定2月1號才能夠來罷免立委才開始運作他事先偷跑"},{"start":3617.282,"end":3625.066,"text":"然後現在知道 喔 主謀是賴清德總統所以可以這麼講啊 這次大報名就是賴清德 家科靜明 兩個狼狽為奸啦整個都這一出啊 然後昨天的 加上昨天的什麼 雜誌說啊雜誌說啊 其實大家對監察院最大的意見啊"},{"start":3643.308,"end":3649.173,"text":"最大的意見是什麼就是現在民進黨執政這八年來 超過九年了齁把監察院大法官應該中立 應該獨立完全內閣化所以這個副秘書長啊這個你沒辦法回答我是沒有給你聽啦"},{"start":3666.223,"end":3673.309,"text":"他的雜誌說 總統還在硬拗 越謀越黑他就提到 通過選舉罷免讓這個雜誌就去掉"},{"start":3677.921,"end":3694.369,"text":"去腐純青啊那就是很簡單的白澳你還講就是去掉非民進黨旗的所以就變成全面執政那就全面獨裁喔所以我就請教副秘書長啊結尾稀釋時權還要顏色化嗎看顏色嗎"},{"start":3698.69,"end":3721.656,"text":"跟委員說明 依照憲法徵修條文第七條的第五項監察委員要超越黨派對啦 要超越黨派啦我到現在為止一直沒有辦法原諒監察院的其中幾個監察委員就是監察委員是御史大夫 怎麼會這麼沒有風格當初在COVID-19的時候要約談陳時中"},{"start":3725.117,"end":3728.86,"text":"然後被蘇貞昌當時候的行政院長 吼回去啊說這個時候怎麼可以約談 陳時中好 那個時候就不敢約談了啊那現在為什麼不約談呢難道 購買疫苗的問題沒有問題嗎快篩劑沒有問題嗎高端的事情沒有問題嗎到現在為止 立法委員要行使這個資料的調閱的職權都丟不到資料啊 重要資料都被塗掉"},{"start":3752.216,"end":3780.616,"text":"清清楚楚看得到嗎現在的監察院全面的內閣化大法官也是如此這個是本席啊所最痛恨的一個好好的政府的各單位民進黨執政就把他搶搶搶搶到那邊完全完全只有一種聲音這種聲音就是民進黨的聲音混入我族咧就給他戴帽子噢 這個就是中共統禄人就是到底這個樣子這種悲哀在這裡的"},{"start":3782.543,"end":3802.96,"text":"最後一點我想告訴副秘書長監察院我們在審查的時候副院長李鴻鈞被提名人他在這裡公開承諾因為有委員提到可以不可以公布每位監委的出席率各監委的提案書、調查書、糾團書其實老百姓是很關心的"},{"start":3812.612,"end":3822.568,"text":"為什麼會一直有說這些在對經文說是不是要廢掉幹什麼的就是你們不夠透明這個胡秘書長講一下 崔熙立有沒有公佈"},{"start":3824.639,"end":3852.522,"text":"要跟委員說明有關於監察院委員參與參與院會各常設委員會召集人會議等等的相關的會議的記錄都會完全公開透明會公布然後另外有關於委員的提案數調查數提案糾纏的相關的案件數都會在我們的網路上面公開會每個月都有相關的統計數據所以是"},{"start":3854.824,"end":3866.202,"text":"監察院事實上是盡量朝公開透明把相關的職權行使都讓我看到了監委的出席率沒有公佈喔監委的出席率沒有公佈喔"},{"start":3867.145,"end":3893.684,"text":"報告委員是他的會議紀錄裡面有出席率?會議紀錄不是啦不是啦他要去整理我們就是你要公佈因為這是李鴻鈞答應在提名的時候他公開承諾要公佈監委的出席率監委你說啊會議紀錄自己去找怎麼會這個樣子呢可以吧這個可以你行政處可以做得到吧回去告訴李副院長他公開承諾的"},{"start":3894.861,"end":3922.007,"text":"他跟我承諾了 我的結論 我的時間到了 我的結論就是我支持這一次的750萬 因為這個增加提高中華民國 提高台灣的能見度的一個中華會議沒有理由不支持 我支持但是 但是李鴻鈞公開承諾的要公佈每位監委的出席率要做到 好不好你回去報告一個月內 我們希望就能夠看得到答案好 謝謝"},{"start":3923.927,"end":3926.43,"text":"好 謝謝賴昭偉接著請郭公文委員質詢"},{"start":3957.376,"end":3969.663,"text":"主席有請陳慧娟副組長還有警察院王秘書長好 請副組長還有我們的王代理秘書長我先就教於這個王秘書長"},{"start":3975.994,"end":3990.261,"text":"這個組織當中其實已經辦了今年算辦第三次嘛是三次也是動用二倍機嘛對不對好像編列是來不及嘛那這一次在法院上主計處也應該是OK嘛對不對"},{"start":3992.942,"end":4010.572,"text":"其實就這個部分其實剛剛那個賴氏保委員也強調說站在一個國家立場他不會反對我相信從一個理性的一個問政來說的話都應該要支持才對不過就整個邦交國的這一個部分"},{"start":4012.253,"end":4026.98,"text":"沒有邦交國的部分但是我們要鞏固邦交我看起來這邊好像沒有邦交國主要是一個美中之間的外交戰場我們需要跟這些人聯繫一些關係吧你不如稍微表述一下過去主辦的兩場有沒有什麼樣的實質的成效"},{"start":4029.849,"end":4054.088,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們辦過兩次一個是在2011跟2019對我知道實質的成效是什麼這個我都知道其實呢就是因為監察院是April的正式會員是有投票權那參加參加相關的年會甚至主辦相關的年會這個是會員的重要的義務然後那真的對"},{"start":4055.549,"end":4082.828,"text":"沒有 因為你扯到外交我就說你在外交上有什麼實質的成效啦我是覺得你這個部分要多琢磨一點啦就是說因為跟著這樣連結之後那將來有一個什麼樣多一個互動或什麼這樣會比較好一點我意思是說這樣會更具有說服力嘛因為畢竟是國際組織嘛對啊而不是說舉辦一次會議而已我是跟你建議說最好是這樣會更具有說服力那第二個的部分呢就預算上呢基本上呢"},{"start":4083.729,"end":4097.378,"text":"反而現在的物價越來越高你相對於14年來說預算不增反減這讓人家很意外啊監察院比較會省錢嗎還是以前的監察院比較浪費還是怎麼樣的原因你不能說明一下"},{"start":4098.695,"end":4114.484,"text":"跟委員說明其實每次監察院在編列預算的時候都非常的確實跟嚴謹那以前不確實囉每次都是非常確實嚴謹那為什麼以前多現在少14年前我跟委員報告一下我們2011年編列777萬777萬2000元我看到是779萬"},{"start":4121.048,"end":4127.632,"text":"777萬2千元然後結束的時候我們有核算過總支出是669萬9千872元在2019年我們編列了751萬5千5百元然後最後總支出是616萬7千982元其實我們也有去"},{"start":4145.943,"end":4172.247,"text":"就決算的部分其實沒有預算數那麼多啦還差了一百多萬啦所以說其實這次也不用變那麼多啦好 這樣我了解就決算數的差別好 那另外一個部分據我了解今年的預算那個監察院被砍了96%業務費雖然連整個伊甸基金會的人員都減半還積欠先知到五月底還積欠一百三十三萬"},{"start":4176.167,"end":4186.499,"text":"這個真的情何以堪啊 監察院積欠弱勢團體這有沒有什麼方式可以解套這個萬一弱勢團體以後來跟我們陳情的話你覺得我們要怎麼處理啊"},{"start":4190.455,"end":4207.783,"text":"就是有關於醫店在幫忙協助監察院有關於整個全院的清潔的部分那其實一開始我們是15位可是因為預算被整個刪除所以我們就保留了7位7位完全都是工作量不是加倍了嗎"},{"start":4208.183,"end":4231.361,"text":"都是生長人士那相關的工作呢我們在院裡面也盡量去我簡單的講接下來這些基線的款項什麼時候要準備來處理你們怎麼處理這有可能繼續動用預備金額的方式嗎預備金額夠不夠待會我會問那個副作你們是有打算用同樣的模式嗎"},{"start":4232.756,"end":4242.883,"text":"跟委員說明除了這750以外的確監察院還有跟行政院透過行政院去請求另外的7900萬那什麼時候再送進來一次再送進來變成我們還要審兩次副主席長"},{"start":4254.022,"end":4274.201,"text":"就是說監察院這個因為他是國際會議舉辦在即所以他這個案子送的比較快另外我有盤點過就是說包括監察院其他的業務費的不足以及總統府或者是行政院等等有另外第二批也會來動惡"},{"start":4275.462,"end":4294.3,"text":"那你們有去統計過不論是行政院或者總統府或者是說監察院他可能動資到二倍金的部分的金額目前大概多少因為你二倍金總共也不過八十億啊而且現階段就我理解的部分已經動用了二十幾億了嘛應該不足六十億了嘛"},{"start":4298.008,"end":4314.333,"text":"目前第二批會送過來是1.5億那是哪幾個單位總統府行政院不當黨產委員會跟監察院行政院黨產委員會跟監察院大概什麼時候會再送"},{"start":4315.101,"end":4338.148,"text":"這個就我們了解我們大院的那個院會已經交付審查就是等委員會看什麼時候安排如果是這樣子的話那我再問一下那個監察院監察院現在其實對立委官員來說最恐怖的事情就是要職本申報這個到底有沒有辦法什麼解決"},{"start":4341.255,"end":4355.006,"text":"跟委員說明就是因為我們的業務費用真的是36%所以不是只有財深的他的相關的費用要我簡單的問啦等到二倍金下一次二倍金的使用這1.5億當中能不能解決這個問題"},{"start":4357.148,"end":4378.778,"text":"可以可以齁就可以一任而解齁我跟你講要廢監察案不容易啊因為你怎麼廢你也廢不了這個監察的職權啊他只是分屬在體制的不同部門而已監察權還是很重要希望在這個預算被刪減的過程當中我們的監察權還是可以順利運作得以落實齁繼續加油副局長我最後問你一個問題齁副局長"},{"start":4380.299,"end":4404.592,"text":"最近有關於北約組織希望國防預算達到GDP的5%我們台灣目前在美方的要求之下也有喊到3也有喊到5也有喊到10實際上我們今年總體的國防預算總共加起來是2.45%明年的概算已經出來了有沒有可能再增加在努力當中還在努力當中總統就說3%"},{"start":4407.062,"end":4424.932,"text":"有沒有可能達到3%至少3%我們就朝這個目標來朝這個目標在努力所以說明年的國防預算至少3%就是因為國防預算就它的來源包括年度預算對我知道啦就是總統的目標你會不會把它達成對我們會朝這個目標來努力好謝謝你 謝謝接著請黃國昌委員質詢黃國昌 黃國昌"},{"start":4437.095,"end":4452.927,"text":"黃國昌委員質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩有請主計總處副主計長兼查院代理秘書長好 副主計長跟代理秘書長委員好"},{"start":4460.181,"end":4469.119,"text":"兩位好,先請教副主席長,今天主席長請教去年6月3日通過原住民淨法補償,每公頃調升到6萬元"},{"start":4472.335,"end":4499.138,"text":"那這個法律通過了以後行政院一度有抗拒後來行政院院長找了朝野黨團的代表到行政院去開會做成一個決議說今年要透過辦理追加預算的方式來予以支應請問什麼時候要提出來目前在會診當中因為還有聯同其他的項目可能也會辦追加什麼時候要提出來"},{"start":4501.236,"end":4527.949,"text":"會診的時程我不是很確定 但是會盡快妳不是副主計長嗎是那誰知道 只有卓榮泰知道嗎不是 因為現在就是說針對總共要提追加的項目還在做最後確認當中所以什麼時候會提出來我們 就我的了解可能看是不是這一兩個月吧回去喔"},{"start":4528.888,"end":4557.323,"text":"提醒一下卓榮泰院長承諾的事要做到上一次總執行的時候高精素美委員直接問行政院院長卓榮泰在那邊吱吱嗚嗚的到底要不要依照上次在行政院他召集各黨團的代表提追加預算不敢承諾回去提醒卓榮泰院長"},{"start":4558.961,"end":4567.687,"text":"簽字的是他如果連這種簽字的卓榮泰都不認帳的話這個行政院院長講的話還有誰會相信可以嗎可以嗎可以回去轉告卓榮泰嗎辦理追加的部分我們會來處理會來處理嗎好說得非常好接下來請先查閱委員好"},{"start":4587.645,"end":4612.613,"text":"之前啊監察委員包括秘書長違法濫用公務車啊輿論軒然大波上一次我在司法法治委員會請教你啊說李鴻鈞說要立即啟動調查啊立即是多立即結果你上次跟我說紀律委員會連開會的時間都沒有訂嘛好那現在呢紀律委員會終於訂了開會的時間了"},{"start":4616.527,"end":4633.275,"text":"從五月底的立即到七月現在要開會了好那我們就來檢討一下之前有監委葉大華說啊這個是要怎麼調查這個是涉及事務要怎麼立案調查請問葉大華監委講的是對的嗎"},{"start":4636.775,"end":4657.07,"text":"跟委員說明我上次也說明過其實在監察院的紀律委員會所處理的事務都是監察委員的涉及事務所以葉大法講的不對嗎這是委員的觀點第二個問題紀律委員會開會以前監察院有沒有確認過這七名紀律委員會的委員自己有沒有濫用公務車的情況"},{"start":4667.622,"end":4678.851,"text":"你不要等到紀律委員會開會的時候被人家爆出來原來紀律委員會的委員自己也濫用公務車就難看了這件事情監察院有沒有先確認過紀律委員會開會的部分只要三分之二的我知道這個法定門檻我都知道我只是要問監察院確認過這七名紀律委員會的委員自己有沒有濫用公務車有確認過了嗎"},{"start":4697.349,"end":4712.981,"text":"報告委員 這個不是法定程序這不是法定程序 那我就問嘛依照所謂監察院的法定程序紀律委員會的委員如果自己有濫用公務車的話他還可以針對這個紀律事項開會成為委員嗎紀律委員會也有迴避的規定也有迴避的規定嘛到目前為止7月要開會有沒有委員自己要迴避的"},{"start":4724.895,"end":4748.607,"text":"就我所知目前是沒有的沒關係啊我今天藉由公開的質詢啊是是在提醒這紀律委員會親民委員啊想清楚啊不要到時候紀律委員會開會啊連紀律委員自己都被爆出來濫用公務車啊到時候就很難看了啦到時候就很難看了那接下來就有個問題啊紀律委員會處理的是監委嘛對不對那祕書長咧"},{"start":4752.847,"end":4779.702,"text":"跟委員說明就是上次我也說明過其實是台北地檢署這兩回事吧監察法的規定施行細則的規定你作為代理秘書長應該很清楚檢調是檢調監察院是監察院你們自己的施行細則就寫得很清楚了那我現在問題來了自立委員會只處理監委"},{"start":4781.397,"end":4786.381,"text":"讓秘書長處理不處理接下來監察院要怎麼辦我跟委員說明記憶委員會他們處理的方式有非常的多元處理的方式當然是多元嘛我現在先問你嘛我們依法論法記憶委員會處理的對象是不是限於監委還是包括秘書長"},{"start":4808.559,"end":4833.861,"text":"原則上是處理監委是沒有錯你講原則上是監委有例外嗎可是就是如果因為紀律委員會也可以立案調查立案調查是只有紀律委員會才能立案調查還是一般的監委就可以立案調查紀律委員會也可以沒有這是兩回事嘛紀律委員會我就說了他處理的對象是監委嘛那現在針對秘書長的部分"},{"start":4834.844,"end":4854.414,"text":"你們其他的監委有要立案調查嗎跟委員說明我們的新聞稿裡面也有提到到如果這個案件經過紀律委員會立案調查他的調查範圍他的調查事項完全要尊重調查委員的的框定這樣對啊但問題他的對象根本不一樣啊"},{"start":4856.363,"end":4885.25,"text":"我有說錯嗎就是如果紀律委員會就是立案調查如果紀律委員會立案調查他的立案調查是經過監察院的同意去立案調查立案調查的時候不是啊你為什麼繼續啊在扯紀律委員會我搞不懂現在我問你對象是秘書長秘書長是紀律委員會要處理的範圍嗎這個問題有這麼難懂嗎你作為代理秘書長監察院自己主管的法規都不熟嗎"},{"start":4887.506,"end":4911.215,"text":"我剛剛說明是說來我直接跟你講啦現在涉案的監委有三名喔他們自己針對其他的公務員濫用公務車他們提過彈劾案喔他們提過彈劾案喔他們自己去彈劾其他的公務員喔說這些公務員濫用公務車要被彈劾喔"},{"start":4913.501,"end":4934.834,"text":"來 法規上監察委員可不可以被彈劾可以吧可以秘書長可不可以被彈劾可以辭職以後的秘書長可不可以被彈劾可以過去有沒有秘書長被彈劾過的有的有嘛我們現在喔 接下來全民睜大眼睛看監察委員"},{"start":4938.467,"end":4954.045,"text":"自己濫用公務車去彈劾公務員濫用公務車這幾個監委到今天還賴在位置上我看的是瞠目結舌啦報告委員這幾個那他們是打算怎麼樣利用監察院的紀律委員會打算關關相護嗎"},{"start":4956.563,"end":4984.511,"text":"這幾個彈劾案我們有了解一下有三個彈劾案都是有關於公務車使用的部分可是這三個彈劾案完全不是單單針對公務車的使用都有其他的所以什麼你現在急著開始幫這些監委開脫了這麼急喔委員我只是說明事實這麼急著開始幫他們開脫了全民都在看啊你們看時間上面要怎麼拖延"},{"start":4985.663,"end":5005.355,"text":"最後結果終究是要出來的啦結果終究是要出來的啦我希望監察院不要把副院長對全民所做的承諾當成空爆彈好 謝謝 謝謝國昌委員接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":5020.041,"end":5040.927,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請我們行政院主計總處的陳副主計長監察院的王代理秘書長 以及紀律委員會的正執行秘書王代理秘書長 還有我們的紀律委員會正執行秘書"},{"start":5044.431,"end":5073.806,"text":"好 副主席長好 代理副主席長好還有鄭執行秘書好來鄭執行秘書請教一下剛剛的前面黃委員說如果委員身兼紀律委員就應該對自己的涉及紀律事件迴避我想這是一個基本的立衝的迴避原則那如果某黨的前任黨主席因為涉貪遭檢調調查司法審判那繼任的黨主席可不可以在立法院去質詢司法院或法務部長"},{"start":5077.536,"end":5095.244,"text":"這個部分我不清楚因為前委員的問題不知道如何回答請你請回沒關係好 今天我要正式談的題目民進黨廢考間歡迎藍白根治廢紙錢應首發首先維持運作來 請教代理秘書長台灣第三次主辦APOR的年會經費哪裡來"},{"start":5097.396,"end":5117.339,"text":"跟委員說明,我們有關APRIL的年會是放在監察院114年的中央政府總預算案裡面那被誰刪除了?立法院多數刪除了?是好,來,副主席長我們剛剛也聽你解釋過了,動用第二頁邊境的法源依據,根據我們預算法下一頁"},{"start":5118.493,"end":5141.95,"text":"第22條第二項立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額不得動之預備金對不對對你剛剛有講了嘛但是後段但法定經費或經立法院同意者不再實現那請問今天我們是來問剛剛那一筆被刪除預算是法定經費或者要那一筆經費被立法院同意的才不再實現"},{"start":5143.226,"end":5167.689,"text":"對,我們是要針對原先刪減然後現在是不是立法院同意讓我們動之所以立法院同意之後就可以嗎?是好,謝謝,請回來,接下來,蔡理秘書長來,我們看一下下一頁這個,看起來大家都有一點年紀齁在20年前有一個彩券廣告啊就是一個爸爸帶著小孩常常帶著小孩說,喜歡嗎?爸爸買給你因為中了彩券什麼都有"},{"start":5168.71,"end":5196.22,"text":"現在我們看到民眾黨就像被寵害的小孩要修憲就全靠這個父爸爸動不動就要國民黨支持他一廂情願的提案請問你知不知道修憲提案是國會過半數就有決定嗎並不是這樣依照憲法申修條文第12條的規定要多少要四分之三四分之三對不對好那我們來看一下現在在野黨尤其是民眾黨的黨主席他說什麼"},{"start":5197.826,"end":5215.089,"text":"要開始來修改要成立要修改憲法對不對廢除早已失去存在價值輪回酬勇養老與政治打手的監察院以完善國家憲政體制啟動我的憲政改革到徵求條文的第三條第四條第七條我們看到了他需要得到多少人連署要"},{"start":5216.903,"end":5244.553,"text":"29個那他現在有32個結果我們看了一下父爸爸給他多少個民眾黨8個國民黨24個這24個當中有13個不需要面對罷免包括3加1的原住民委員包括部分區的委員以及包括像陳玉珍這種僥倖的沒有被提罷免的結果13位不需要面對罷免的勇敢的來參加這個提案但是我們看到"},{"start":5246.105,"end":5261.853,"text":"這個提案誰跑掉了王宏威這個面對罷免的委員說這不是藍白河案只開放個人連署誰連署了徐宇珍國民黨主發會的主委撤遷欸 主發會的主委撤遷你不是不溫馨的嗎"},{"start":5263.018,"end":5276.853,"text":"為什麼撤簽 因為可能擔心有案再生啊現在這個司法檢調單位在查未照臨署假冒冒名臨署的 已經查到哪裡了查到國民黨主發會的副主任了欸"},{"start":5278.038,"end":5300.869,"text":"所以怎麼樣 跑掉了 看下一頁所以我們看到了 剛剛那個就是什麼不怕死的碰到不知死活的還有11個不知死活的 面對罷免的在那邊聯合的提案來我們問一下 廢除監察院 朱立倫要改黨章嗎對不起 在您面前 你有沒有看過國民黨的黨章沒有 國民黨的黨章叫奉行五權憲法"},{"start":5302.236,"end":5328.174,"text":"先把正確條文 剛剛說的是不是認真決你認為朱立民主席會同意修改國民黨黨章嗎我沒有辦法很難回答 因為你也不是國民黨黨員OK 好 來我們看一下但是修憲委員會 民進黨始終監除廢稿間這是在110年第十屆的時候我們成立了修憲委員會而且我們要求刪除第六條第七條將考證跟條件廢掉這些人包括柯建民 劉世芳跟蔡世應"},{"start":5329.326,"end":5356.511,"text":"好 我們讓這個修憲主張是這樣 那你來猜猜看當年這個修憲提案 國民黨修憲委員有沒有參加不曉得 因為第十屆我在 我是修憲委員會的五個召集委員之一結果呢 修憲遇到廢考間修憲委員會 國民黨十四個委員 三次會議通通缺席不敢面對 您覺得國民黨真心要廢除考試院檢察院嗎"},{"start":5360.578,"end":5375.554,"text":"從歷史斑斑可考,你覺得他是真心的嗎?檢察院完全尊重修憲的程序好,檢察院完全尊重立法院的修憲委員會但是立法院自己的修憲委員會,藍委全部落跑,再下來我們看一下"},{"start":5376.26,"end":5395.285,"text":"其實我想,縱使目前你們人在監察院,但是我們也可以去思考國家怎麼進步但是,我民進黨主張廢除監察院有配套,人權保障不能少,貪官污吏跑不掉首先,目前國家人權會是不是在監察院裡面?是的,在1月09日那如果監察院廢掉了,你覺得國家人權會要不要繼續維持?"},{"start":5396.659,"end":5423.899,"text":"這是國家重要的一個機構 重要的機構好 再來我們目前現在負責工作人員採訪申報對不對 是貪官物力不能跑掉 申報機關是監察院監察院如果廢掉了 申報的機制要不要維持當然當然要維持 好 謝謝所以結論我們看一下國民黨要挺白修憲 先問問中南海為什麼 因為修憲提案通過之後他經過中華民國自由地區人民投票 複決這是公民投票結果國台辦說什麼"},{"start":5425.38,"end":5448.572,"text":"現在國台辦說台灣的人民不要罷免國民黨可是在2022年中共的發言人馬曉光說所謂的修憲公投根本就是為了修憲謀獨而鋪路造勢所以說國民黨要配合王國昌黨主席配合民眾黨去修憲要不要先問問中南海往下看 最後結論"},{"start":5450.199,"end":5469.931,"text":"那林秘書長為了維護我國國際聲譽 善盡會員義務保障世界各國國會的權益你是不是同意也支持我們盡速同意動之第二預備金是的 謝謝委員好 那也謝謝你們如果有認識國民黨員國民黨要廢考試院 要廢監察院有要廢監察院先修綱檔章再來談修憲 謝謝好 接著請省劃會委員質詢"},{"start":5487.505,"end":5490.107,"text":"主席我們請代理秘書長我們請王代理秘書長委員好"},{"start":5499.564,"end":5522.692,"text":"議員長早我想剛才很多委員大家在質詢大概都已經一再慘明就是說今天的這樣子的提案它是完全是依照這個預算法第22條第二項的後段這個有關單書的規定就是預算被刪除之後不能動用第二預備金除非兩個狀況第一種狀況是它是這個法定經費"},{"start":5523.792,"end":5548.784,"text":"第二種情況可以動用第二預備金就是經立法院同意所以你們今天就是來尋求立法院的同意對不對就是依照預算法第二色條第二項後段對不對所以這個部分我想應該沒有爭議啦齁那因此我們就來重點就在看說今天你們來為什麼監察院被刪除那麼多那麼多的預算包括水電費什麼這些預算全部都被刪除了"},{"start":5549.673,"end":5559.576,"text":"但是為什麼你們今天就是提這一條來動用第二預約金這個是立法院應該問的道理嘛對不對就是說你們被刪除那麼多為什麼要動用這一條這一條是我們這個要舉辦這個給這個國際監察組織裡面的這個澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會嘛這個年會預計什麼時候舉辦"},{"start":5574.502,"end":5597.422,"text":"各位所以說明今年的9月3號到5號所以時間很迫近所以剩下七、八兩個月的準備嘛所以事實上是很急迫啦為什麼要動用預備金不等追加減預算其實就是因為時間真的很急迫了那這個到底這個年會這個是什麼樣的組織為什麼會在這個你們的預算會在立法院的審查中會刪除在司法法治委員會討論有討論到這個案子嗎"},{"start":5601.111,"end":5624.783,"text":"我是司法法治委員會的我們是編列在議事業務那議事業務編了1800多萬那750萬是在其中那在司法法治委員會那時候也是全案保留送協商啦全案保留送協商之後協商出來的結論就是說大家沒有共識送表決啦那送表決之後那天測驗一直表決到天亮表決到"},{"start":5625.903,"end":5641.061,"text":"刪除預算超過本預算數的那個荒謬的這個在野黨的這個荒謬的刪除預算大戲裡面被刪除的嘛 對不對所以我們來看看說這樣子的預算今天也有國民黨委員來講說這個預算我們支持啊那當時為什麼會被刪除"},{"start":5642.932,"end":5652.5,"text":"就是因為當初的刪除的過程荒謬那我們今天來就是把它提出來我們來好好討論說這個預算到底需不需要我們所參加的我們這個國際監察組織它有幾個會員國"},{"start":5659.598,"end":5671.203,"text":"國際監察組織到目前為止有257個會員國我們國家的會員是隸屬於APOR就是澳紐及太平洋總共有18個會員國這個國際監察組織它總共分六個區域它分成非洲、亞洲、歐洲、北美洲"},{"start":5680.927,"end":5690.076,"text":"加勒比亞跟拉丁美洲第六個就是我們紐澳跟太平洋所以它是一個正式的國際組織這樣的國際組織我們在哪一年加入的在1994年到現在30年 1994年1994年我們加入我們用什麼樣的名義加入中華台北"},{"start":5702.182,"end":5728.834,"text":"台灣經濟共同體中華民國監察院我們用中華民國監察院加入這個是現在我們非常非常少數用中華民國的名義加入的國際組織三十年這個組織有我們參加這個組織三十年三十年來我們舉辦過幾次年會我們舉辦過三次年會兩次吧這是第三次這是要舉辦第三次三十年來我們才爭取到兩次"},{"start":5730.157,"end":5755.752,"text":"一次在2011年是馬英九總統任內爭取的另外一個是2019年那我們從2022年開始爭取今年主辦經過兩年的努力我們今年終於可以主辦了這樣子的在台灣現在在國際社會上面這樣子的條件我們在所有的組織有的組織完全連參與的機會都沒有有的組織就你一定要矮化才能參與這麼難得有一個"},{"start":5759.773,"end":5775.867,"text":"以中華民國名義參加的國際組織我們參加了三十年才辦過兩次年會今年要爭取辦第三次結果這已經剩兩個月囉如果今天我們預算不讓你們動用第二預備金我們沒錢我們宣布兩個月前宣布不辦了我們台灣在這個國際組織要怎麼站起來啊"},{"start":5782.908,"end":5800.15,"text":"台灣已經這麼少的國際組織用中華民國民意參與結果我們跟人家說我們今年要辦年會然後剩下兩個月說我們不辦了年會說其他國家會問你為什麼啊為什麼你們不辦說對不起因為我們在野黨把我們的預算刪除了所以我們沒得辦"},{"start":5802.575,"end":5815.486,"text":"這種把國內政治鬥爭去影響到國家在參與國際社會的利益這個就是典型標準這就是為什麼人民會看不下這一屆立法院的最大的原因大家對於國內政策對於監察院可以有很多意見可以提案要求修建廢除監察院但是這種參與國際組織這台灣國際面子這台灣的國際信用"},{"start":5834.277,"end":5859.065,"text":"這個你再怎麼樣野蠻再怎麼內鬥都不能夠去危害到國家的這個利益更何況這個國際監察組織事實上從2018年開始中國他們本來不是一個民主國家沒有國會沒有什麼院但是中國在2018年他設立了一個國家監察委員會對不對他想要用這個國家監察委員會他想要加入這個組織把中華民國踢出去"},{"start":5861.53,"end":5887.501,"text":"在這麼艱難的時候我們在野黨刪除這個預算讓我們國際信用破產讓我們下一次要再爭取舉辦第三次的機會也沒了以後誰還會讓你辦啊你們在兩個月舉辦前兩個月跟我宣布取消所以這部分我覺得這個是台灣的國家利益這部分我希望說我們今天動用第二預備金我們要應該立法院應該要通過讓你們辦"},{"start":5889.911,"end":5899.28,"text":"你可以說台北市議會因為蔣萬安市場做得很爛所以在舉辦前兩個月我說把你失壯運的預算全部砍光讓你辦不了失壯運這個就是我所說的"},{"start":5904.878,"end":5924.482,"text":"我們內部在野黨黨派政治立場不同我們政治觀點不同我們所扮演的角色不同都沒有關係但是所有的這些包括預算刪除包括我們這些都不能夠損及台灣的國家利益這才是在野黨應該有的這也是現在人民對於這一屆立法院所真正不滿的地方想要把台灣踢出Apple這個年會"},{"start":5931.505,"end":5943.248,"text":"只有兩個人一個就是中共他們2018年處心積慮第二就是在野黨刪除這個預算讓我們國際信用擴展以上好 謝謝接著請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":5958.932,"end":5963.817,"text":"有請王代理秘書長王代理秘書長其實在預算審查當中你有沒有發現司法院也好考試院也好預算大家有意見的比較少監察院大家意見就很多對不對"},{"start":5984.264,"end":6012.876,"text":"那我告訴你為什麼我先從幾件事來看為什麼監察院大家對你的預算意見那麼多坦白講要開國際年會我覺得沒什麼問題但監察院自己想想看為什麼對監察院的預算大家意見那麼多我想請教你這句話你看是誰說的死刑作為一個結束個人生命的終極懲罰不管採取什麼樣的執行方式都是殘忍不人道死刑是酷刑不能以合法制裁知名豁免責任"},{"start":6014.036,"end":6028.528,"text":"八成民眾不贊成廢除死刑做出台灣民意對廢死強烈不滿的結論但不能合理理解台灣社會的真實面貌下如何得證國家發動死刑的正當性這些話是誰說的委員我不能確定是不是國家人權委員會沒錯啊就是國家人權委員會六月份所出的年報"},{"start":6040.538,"end":6056.104,"text":"事實上為什麼從這個地方開始講我想請問你們還特別強調廢除死刑是深化民主跟落實轉型正義的重要步驟我想請問戴琳秘書長廢除死刑跟深化民主有什麼關係因為這是國家人權委員會的正式主張我可不可以請經理回答可以啊 請人權委員會來說明一下"},{"start":6069.766,"end":6097.955,"text":"是 報告委員跟委員說明一下就是國家安全委員會其實是站在守護生命權的立場啦那因為我們國家已經所以被害人的生命權不重要因為主要是因為我們國家已經簽訂了兩公約那你知道施朵講的女老師你要不要描述一下怎麼受殘忍的虐待虐殺其實我們是扮演著一個那你知不知道今天最近有渣器集團綁架61個被害者綁架61個人"},{"start":6099.875,"end":6127.478,"text":"我想請教人權會這六十一個人的人權在哪裡其實人權會我們我想問你哪一個政府執政之下有六十一個人被綁架的一次綁架六十一個人你聽過嗎你有沒有聽過先跑出人權會立場有聽過嗎有時綁架人數最多就是在我們民進黨執政的時候你也有去關心這些人權嗎"},{"start":6129.303,"end":6155.323,"text":"我們人權會其實這幾年在廢死的工作上面其實我們同時也針對受害者的家屬我們其實現在也針對受害者的家屬所以人權會沒有心心念念要廢死啊我們今年其實也針對受害者的家屬然後在這個部分開始著力你一邊跟大家講你要廢除死刑一邊跟大家講你關心受害者的家屬你去講給受害者家屬聽啦你不用講給受害者家屬聽你講給誰聽我告訴你你知道那個61個被綁架的"},{"start":6159.943,"end":6180.328,"text":"被未讀被惦記被虐待活活虐待三個人死掉虐死三個人一樣啊免死你去跟那個被虐死那三個人講講人權好不好要不要去拜訪家屬講人權謝謝你的無語我告訴你這是為什麼第一個我要講"},{"start":6189.209,"end":6215.554,"text":"你憑什麼說不支持死刑反對廢除死刑是不民主的什麼叫做廢除死刑叫深化民主那不廢除死刑就不是深化民主這你們人權會的結論總不能否認吧在現在的是不是嘛一百多個國家裡面其實目前還有存留死刑的國家已經很少了而且重點是"},{"start":6216.653,"end":6225.163,"text":"民進黨最愛拿著美國做例子美國也有一些州是沒有廢除死刑啊所以他也沒有深化民主啊這我們都了解不要拿民主做標籤就這麼簡單"},{"start":6228.616,"end":6258.156,"text":"這是你們人權會自己想要做的迎合執政黨廢除死刑的黨綱那是政治意識形態其實這個不是迎合因為我們已經簽署兩公約沒關係啦你去跟那三位被虐死的家被虐死的受害者講這些啦當初兩公約在簽的時候是在馬總統時代我很簡單我要講一個結論我要告訴你一個結論兩公約你也不要拿來框我兩公約也沒說要廢除死刑兩公約只是說要嚴格謹慎的執行死刑對啊你也講對那你拿兩公約出來說嘴"},{"start":6259.236,"end":6285.382,"text":"因為很多國家如果說不執行執行的話是可以排除第五條的我做一個很簡單的結論你光你今天監察院站在八成民意反對廢死的民意的對立面我就不知道監察院在幹嘛在講本務想請教一下我們代理秘書長剛好看前面的委員都有質詢"},{"start":6287.031,"end":6313.566,"text":"李俊詩用公務車已經請辭那想請問現在行政調查結果進度到什麼程度目前有關於 我們副院長也有說明然後會 目前檢調在處理中有六個案件然後另外紀律委員會也有排案要開會我們的副院長就胡說八道什麼叫檢調在處理就不能處理"},{"start":6315.421,"end":6340.214,"text":"法規規定得很清楚並不因此停止調查所以搞了半天我剛剛前面講先站在八成的反對廢死的民意的對立面就是監察院然後第二個自己是要端正關真的單位結果呢 涉入一大堆問題第三個 時間到我也不占用時間 很簡單"},{"start":6342.742,"end":6370.335,"text":"到現在為止監察院到底交出了什麼監督行政權的成績單出來給大家看不是大家要刪監察院預算而是監察院真的是做的實在是讓大家覺得這個單位存在跟沒存在到底差別在哪裡關鍵還一件事情我希望陳菊院長早日康復我是真心的希望祝福她身體健康可是一個院長請假多久了"},{"start":6373.34,"end":6400.673,"text":"目前院長在請假中請假多久你看連我們的代理秘書長都不知道院長請假多久還沒有半年快半年快半年那不就是某種程度我也要必須說那不是證明監察院院長不在半年也是沒有關係嗎行政院院長可以半年不在嗎司法院院長半年不在嗎所以我還是要回頭說啦"},{"start":6401.826,"end":6423.774,"text":"今天年會的預算我沒什麼意見啦國際會議要舉辦沒什麼意見但監察院真的我還是回頭當然也不能怪你們啦我說過啦監察院的整個制度設計就是有問題我今天跟黃國昌委員已經一起提案就是針對修憲要啟動調整監察院的憲政職程"},{"start":6426.211,"end":6438.955,"text":"讓監察院變成一個民意機關我覺得比較能夠解決現在的問題不會背離民意甚至不會因為被行政權牽絆而不敢執行監察權的職務謝謝好 謝謝羅志強接著我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢馬力"},{"start":6454.582,"end":6480.385,"text":"謝謝最美麗的趙薇 謝謝有請我們監察院代理秘書長王貞華代理秘書長請代理秘書長我也一個起來就好 秘書長委員好我來請教 今天我們提到的我看你整個報告裡面是國際監察組織成立這50年裡面現有111個國家你到底多少的會員機關加入啊"},{"start":6481.448,"end":6482.774,"text":"我看你剛提到的是257啦但是你的報告是怎麼寫259"},{"start":6489.892,"end":6517.67,"text":"會員有時候是會有一些波動的那我們的資料是257兩天就波動了不會吧 對到底是257還是259目前 截至目前是259那因為會員有時候時間會退有一些原因有可能加入或退出或是他名稱更改所以最近到目前截至為止的話是多少是259 對259 是這樣剛才代理秘書可能是口誤啦那我想來請教啦其實"},{"start":6519.371,"end":6534.447,"text":"國人的期待我相信共識也是我們整個台灣走得出去這是國人的一個期待一月份那個時候可能藍白的委員心情不好"},{"start":6535.888,"end":6550.095,"text":"預算拿起來就給你這樣砍這種舉辦國際年會的一個經費你說在九月份就要舉辦了嗎現在都已經快七月了我們還必須要用最佳預算的一個方式這個是"},{"start":6551.395,"end":6577.567,"text":"一笑大方這個其實在國際上我看這被人家看笑話了但是我還是要請教代理秘書長就是說可以請你跟國人來做一個說明為什麼這項國際組織的一個參與它的意義你們覺得非常重大然後這一切的論壇提升台灣的國際能見度或者人權外交跟監察治理的改革裡面到底會有什麼樣的一個幫助請你先說明"},{"start":6579.258,"end":6593.226,"text":"其實就是監察院有這樣子的一個國際監察組織的參與是不容易的是不容易的那他這個組織最重要的重點就是在監察跟人權還有善治有幾個這樣子的重點"},{"start":6593.986,"end":6615.737,"text":"那我們這次舉辦這個年會呢會會邀請APRIL的會員IOI的會員而且我們這次的主題呢其實是focus在監察室的一個任務那跟人權有關然後另外就是我們會討論到國家反酷刑就是酷刑防治的一個相關的機制NPM那這個也是一個重要人權公約應該要建立的相關的"},{"start":6620.179,"end":6634.843,"text":"然後另外一個主題是有關於AI跟人權還有民主法治等多元的議題這個其實是能夠這個議題非常的有意義而且能夠增加我們國家的國際能見度然後對於整個監察治理透過參與會員持續的參與會員持續的參與重要的相關的活動能夠提升國家的能見度"},{"start":6649.848,"end":6669.406,"text":"讓大家都看得到中華民國有監察組織這樣子的一個機構堂堂的一個憲政機關監察院連這樣的一個業務費舉辦的一個國際活動也被立法院把這個預算給砍掉我看你們的一個回應 軟趴趴"},{"start":6670.845,"end":6690.844,"text":"我猜你也算個贏,這個我覺得是非常可惜的一個地方你目前在國際不承認,我們中華民國的情況之下任何有機會走出去,其實這會是國人的一個共識今天如果台灣沒有辦法參與,或者舉辦這樣的一個國際的活動"},{"start":6693.559,"end":6704.528,"text":"誰最開心 中國最開心啊 中國最開心啊最開心的就是中國所以其實呢 今天這樣的一個 今天這個整個預算的一個追擊 二倍我倒認為啊 國民黨跟台灣民眾黨沒那麼好打 你知道嗎 沒那麼好打我又靜靜地看 我又看這一筆的預算他們到底會不會繼續來反對 可以反對多久"},{"start":6723.257,"end":6751.067,"text":"我看過去民主進步黨我們也一直主張要把監察院給廢掉那我現在看到台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨的一些立法委員啊他們也去連署啦他們說要把整個監察院把它給廢掉了我們去回顧一下2015年啊就是因為中國國民黨堅持綁不在籍投票才會破局啊否則2015年啊"},{"start":6753.458,"end":6771.714,"text":"廢掉監察院就會成案了2022年啊那是因為中國國民黨全面去杯葛修建委員會到最後只送出18歲的一個公民權沒有辦法去處理五權體制的一個改革啊這個接下來如果說監察院如果說退場了"},{"start":6772.665,"end":6783.99,"text":"人權委員會到底何去何從這個是我比較關注的一個地方啦就是說監察院廢掉那廢掉就廢掉嘛廢掉有什麼關係"},{"start":6785.359,"end":6813.539,"text":"反正大家都這個院那民眾也可能覺得監察院你也不幹了啦但是這個人權委員會啊我就覺得有這個必要啦所以我倒想就這個機會來就教我們代理秘書長就是說啊如果監察院退場以後啊那你人權委員會你從2020年設立到現在你扮演的諸多的一個角色我們也提供聯合國國際專家審查我國的在地國際的一個報告的一個重要的一個依據"},{"start":6814.541,"end":6815.936,"text":"那如果開掉了,你又要看什麼?"},{"start":6819.61,"end":6847.218,"text":"2020年國家人權委員會在監察院設置其實在設置之前就有非常多的討論是不是放在總統府啊行政院啊甚至立法院最後是選定在監察院其實它重要的重點就是監察院能夠獨立然後呢能夠辦理好人權監督的一個角色那其實國家人權委員會在這幾年來也有非常多的好的表現除了剛剛委員說的"},{"start":6848.098,"end":6871.862,"text":"獨立評估意見以外還有非常多的專案報告系統性訪查等等的還有推廣人權教育都是非常重要的一個成果跟成就那如果監察院如果因修憲的程序而廢除的話其實不只是國家人權委員會還有很多法定的職權比如說像陽光四法就是"},{"start":6872.342,"end":6897.442,"text":"公職人才申報法然後利益衝突政治獻金等等的還有才通過的公益階幣者保護法都是把監察院放得非常重要的角色像這樣子的一個如果監察院不存在那如何來做配置或者是配套的確是要請國人非常去注意的去研究是會有非常重大的影響"},{"start":6898.283,"end":6912.675,"text":"我國長期受到中國這樣在國際上的一個打壓那這一次啊我們有這個機會來舉辦這樣的一個年會啊其實本身就一個深具一個指標性的一個意義啊尤其是我們可以這樣的參與國際上的一個組織然後呢讓他過去實質交流經驗超過了30年"},{"start":6918.72,"end":6941.759,"text":"可以讓他繼續來做一個延續啦我看到2024年透明度透明國際公布的一個全球青年印象指數裡面我們台灣排名也上升到25名創下歷年來最佳的一個表現也就顯示了台灣聯能治理能力逐步獲得國際上的一個認可當然這未必跟監察院有關係那是整個國家的一個治理"},{"start":6942.239,"end":6965.34,"text":"但是我們也真的要期許啦我特別在這邊提醒在野黨的好朋友不論國內的政爭我們如何的一個激烈台灣的一個國際上的一個參與這個部分其實都要凝聚更高國人的一個共識國人也大部分都期待所以我今天倒是要眼睜睜的來看我要很仔細的來看"},{"start":6967.922,"end":6977.771,"text":"看在野黨今天對這一筆預算你們的態度到底是怎麼樣我們也期待啊 妻子兼裁員來 好好準備了啦我大膽給斷啦國民黨在這條裡面啊 沒那麼好打啦 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝鍾瑞雄委員接著我們請顏寬恆委員質詢"},{"start":6996.797,"end":7009.464,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位列席官員大家早主席有請監察院王代理秘書長好我們請監察院王代理秘書長委員好秘書長好"},{"start":7012.067,"end":7036.847,"text":"這次解凍案主要是為了因應第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會及人權國際研討會在台灣舉辦那所以排這個解凍案那這個研討會在我們監察院陳菊院長也多次表示希望能夠再次爭取到台灣來舉辦那持續的推動國際監察交流合作讓世界看見台灣在2019年舉辦"},{"start":7040.911,"end":7048.749,"text":"過後 時隔六年再度回到台灣我們歡迎來自世界各地的人才與我們交流讓他探討各類人權相關的議題"},{"start":7050.509,"end":7075.188,"text":"由監察院主辦的APOR聯會需要接待許多來自不同國家的官員那爭取到APPLE在台舉辦將會使台灣國際能見度更加的提升那請問秘書長要怎麼樣才能讓人相信監察院能夠在實務上確實發揮人權保障的功能請簡單說明"},{"start":7078.015,"end":7082.321,"text":"跟各位說明其實這次監察院是要爭取能夠繼續的主辦APPLE的年會其實透過這樣子一個主辦國際組織年會的這樣子一個機會其實就是能夠讓"},{"start":7094.077,"end":7108.547,"text":"全世界各個人民或者是讓大家看到所以我才希望說我們要怎麼做能夠讓大家相信不是只看到 讓大家相信台灣在人權維護上面有在提升"},{"start":7109.787,"end":7127.166,"text":"其實從這次的主題就可以看得出來我們是監察使的任務然後另外有要去做反酷刑其實反酷刑的部分也是一個重要的人權的一個公約的展現然後另外就是有關於人權的AI人權的那個部分這個"},{"start":7128.547,"end":7134.109,"text":"我們為什麼會去選定這樣子的一個主題就是監察院重視這樣子的一個人權的任務然後透過這樣子一個國際的會議能夠讓大家都知道監察院的治理的重點在這因為時間不多啦我說這麼難得我們能夠爭取到這樣子一個國際的一個研討會"},{"start":7152.757,"end":7168.414,"text":"能夠再一次的來到台灣舉辦那希望能夠來我們能夠給所有來到台灣參加的這些各國友人能夠留下一個良好的印象不要讓人家覺得說我們爭取到這個機會但是沒有充分的運用讓大家失望所以"},{"start":7168.934,"end":7185.64,"text":"我們在國際舞台的實力跟專業性希望能夠藉由這次來做一個提升跟發揮但是我繼續請教因為監察院近期爭議不斷我們看到監察院到底該不該廢除的議題現在都又浮上檯面大家都在討論"},{"start":7187.4,"end":7208.651,"text":"我們知道監察委員共29人 其中一人為院長 一人為副院長 任期6年監察委員的職責就像你剛剛說的 是負責行使監察權確保政府部門的透明度跟公正性 具有彈劾 糾舉 審計權但是本應該具有重大使命的監察院 現在彷彿是政治人物的退休養老院"},{"start":7209.531,"end":7235.556,"text":"除了先前爆發的公務車這個濫用的爭議還有監察委員說沒有公務車上班會遲到除了讓人瞠目結舌之外也不知道怎麼形容啦那監委的年薪高達250萬但是這半年來有許多監委所提出的調查報告是個位數甚至於是連一件都沒有提出的領這麼多錢那一件事都沒做這不只誇張"},{"start":7238.396,"end":7260.521,"text":"連假裝都不假裝了真的把監裁院當作是養老院拿人民的納稅錢來養老這個是爽缺啦這塊是真好啦爽快就對了難怪大家看不下去說要廢除那我想請教祕書長說針對剛剛我們說的沒有做事的監委難道你們就視而不見嗎還是有其他的作為"},{"start":7262.898,"end":7289.67,"text":"跟委員說明就是有關於監察權的行使的狀況其實我們每個月都會對外會有相關的公告那這是相當的清楚有多少調查案、多少糾舉案、彈劾案收受多少人民懲罰就以人民懲罰的收受來講第六屆已經超過七萬多屆所以事實上是有非常多的人民是有對他們覺得有原因的地方有監察員懲罰"},{"start":7291.251,"end":7308.627,"text":"這公告這些數字其實它也不是什麼機密啦但是我要講的就是說人民期待的監察院是一個真正行使監察權那確保政府部門對公眾負責的機構不是一個空殼就是只剩下名稱的機構啦所以監委如果無法履行核心職務那這個機構"},{"start":7311.269,"end":7329.616,"text":"就沒有存在的價值嘛 對不對所以它會成為民眾心中的笑話所以希望在七月份要召開的紀律委員會能夠給人民一個招待對於沒有做事的監委該走人就走人另外要求啦 監察院提供一份資料統計一下所有監委近三年來"},{"start":7330.616,"end":7352.908,"text":"個別監委近三年來提出調查報告的數量讓全民檢視到底是誰拿錢不做事然後把這份報告我想這不是什麼機密希望你們在一個禮拜之內把這份數據我們送交給立法院可以嗎更為說明是可以這不是公開資訊這是公開資訊好不好好謝謝秘書長謝謝"},{"start":7359.161,"end":7360.001,"text":"主席 麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":7377.739,"end":7404.878,"text":"副秘書長早我想說我先最前面的說明一下就是有關這筆750萬元的部分我個人是支持我昨天在跟國民黨其他委員開會的時候我也是說服他們說其實因為這個在我們自己國家內召開這種世界性的組織的研討會其實這個支持本來就是應該的所以我先說明一下"},{"start":7405.978,"end":7425.015,"text":"這是我的結論但是中間有一些問題我還是要跟你們理清楚那當然啦就是因為剛剛也有很多人有提到幾個問題但跟今天沒有絕對的關聯性我認為說他有一點怪力亂神所以我這邊先澄清一下就是說其實已經到今天了我們來討論750萬的這個預算其實不要說在趁這個機會又說什麼爛三預算什麼其實如果"},{"start":7432.041,"end":7450.81,"text":"會爛三預算今天我不會說在這邊還有昨天開會我就跟其他委員說其實國家的顏面我們一定要支持到底所以我覺得這個在扯那個預算爛三這個實在是很沒有意思啦我覺得這是個怪力亂神另外一個就是說有關剛剛有其他委員有提到"},{"start":7453.758,"end":7474.927,"text":"廢監察院這個事情其實國民黨的態度是比較開放我們覺得是一個改革所以我們其實公開說明是兩個方向就監察權的改革是兩個方向當然第一個就是這次民眾黨所提的那個案子就是說廢除監察院把權力移到立法院這是一個廢院移權第二個我們希望的"},{"start":7475.467,"end":7495.617,"text":"就是讓監察委員回歸到早期五權憲法的規定變成民意機關變成民選不管直接民選 階級民選先不去論這個把它變回去民意機關嘛所以這兩條路都是國民黨覺得可以討論的並不存在剛剛講的那些很奇怪因為今天有人提案了這個之後"},{"start":7496.457,"end":7517.488,"text":"那民進黨不同意沒有關係或有意見也沒有關係啊大家可以拿出來討論但是回過頭去扯說2015年或2020年你們又反對又怎麼樣我覺得那個沒有意思啊因為你去講歷史沒有用啊那你為什麼不講我們現在從善如流我就覺得民進黨當初說廢考今天我們舉雙手贊成"},{"start":7520.389,"end":7540.495,"text":"那你為什麼不說我們這個叫從善如流對啊 那為什麼要回過頭去說你當初就不要 你當初就反對啊為什麼你今天可以要所以因為你當年反對那所以我現在也說你說要廢考監這個事我不同意這個邏輯上就邏輯性死亡了"},{"start":7541.38,"end":7567.91,"text":"對啊 你當年你始終堅持廢除考試院 監察院那當年國民黨 以前的國民黨我不認識 他們不同意但是今天新一代的國民黨認為說可以討論 可以去精簡我們優化監察權的行使而有一些改變 這根本沒有問題啊那現在反而是有人跳出來拿歷史故事出來說當年你反對廢考監 為什麼你現在便可以我覺得那個邏輯都錯誤啦"},{"start":7569.751,"end":7597.882,"text":"為什麼我們對於政策的想法不能改變反而是現在民進黨改變了他就變成說早年說要廢考今天現在這麼好用的監察權捨不得放掉我覺得這個才是核心的問題所以請聽清楚我們認為從善如流就是要優化監察權的行使兩個面向一個廢院一權第二個當然我們監察院繼續留著監察委員繼續留著但是改回早年無權憲法的想法讓他變成民意機關"},{"start":7599.182,"end":7616.654,"text":"這是國民黨想法 請大家不要再誤導國人了這是不應該的再回到今天的議題 我想請教一下今天750萬我已經說了我支持因為我認為這國家的顏面我絕對舉雙手贊成一定要支持我們國家的尊嚴但是750萬你們的報告只有55個字耶這個不對吧 而且細項都沒有 你就一個"},{"start":7624.008,"end":7639.565,"text":"你就現在我們PowerPoint上面看到的就這幾個字而已啊那詳細的細節我們都沒有看到這是我第一個要跟你們抗議的事情不能說因為今天我們想要支持你你就不當一回事對不對那你細項你怎麼沒有給我們"},{"start":7641.206,"end":7643.149,"text":"因為口頭報告真的可能比較簡略那有關於750萬的細項我在這邊先再補充說明有關於第一項是有關於國外的講者還有貴賓他們的機票費大概是208萬"},{"start":7657.449,"end":7660.411,"text":"然後相關講者貴賓的住宿是95萬然後另外講者的交通費是72,000然後另外因為要有場地要有國際會議這樣的場地包括廠租設備佈置"},{"start":7672.977,"end":7685.471,"text":"還有餐飲等等是一百八十六萬然後同步口譯還有一些文化參訪等等是五十八萬兩千然後另外是文宣的資料的編譯費包括手冊 包括議程 包括翻譯費"},{"start":7689.455,"end":7717.501,"text":"因為這花時間所以這給我一份報告我們不能接受750萬你就55個字就沒了好不好我必須知道錢怎麼用那第二個我想請教一下為什麼我看那個IOI的官網我們的年度報告在2022年之後就沒有了這是怎麼回事如果我們這麼重視這個會議的話那為什麼2022年之後就沒有我們的報告我看香港也都還有請教怎麼回事"},{"start":7718.619,"end":7747.269,"text":"跟委員說明基本上我們都有送我們都有送那可是可能官網還沒有放上去這個你沒有確定嗎我們監察院有送是他們官網沒放上我們有送我們覺得有送因為2022年2023年後面都沒看到耶但是我看到香港2022、2023都有耶對不對那這個部分你要給我們一個答案啊那還有一個問題喔就是"},{"start":7748.393,"end":7770.066,"text":"我覺得就是因為我看到你們的報告還有你剛剛其他委員的問題我們難得用中華民國這個名義去加入一個國際的組織對不對中華民國監察院那可是我看了一下我上了他們的官網去看我找不到我只找到他們只有在這個那個奧紐區還有太平洋區裡面"},{"start":7771.327,"end":7787.878,"text":"只有一個監察院像譬如說香港他還會特別註明出來其他國家也會特別註明但是我們不見了你自己看這是他們官網上面的那你們有沒有去抗議過我覺得我現在是在替政府講話謝謝委員這個如果這個再繼續往下點的話就會看到是中華民國監察院"},{"start":7794.622,"end":7816.028,"text":"繼續點可是我們這個列表上面別的你自己看嘛我們去看一下這個列表上面其他國家或地區都有被特別標示出來唯獨我們中華民國的監察院他忘了標註那我沒有意見也許他們公網漏掉但是基於國家的尊嚴以及顏面是不是你們可以請"},{"start":7817.268,"end":7834.094,"text":"他們公網要把它簽上去不然你現在告訴我跟你們今天的報告我看完了以後貴院的報告上面寫我們難得用中華民國這個名義加入對不對那但是我看到他們的公網上面沒有嘛那沒有你跟我說點進去在某一個小地方有這就不對了因為列表才是"},{"start":7835.023,"end":7850.524,"text":"是是是這一點我們會特別注意然後會去主張謝謝委員麻煩這個是我們國家顏面不管任何的政黨都認為我們國家顏面是最重要的最後跟你們說貴院的人權委員會"},{"start":7851.946,"end":7870.964,"text":"我們上個禮拜在審那個新住民的法案的時候我們請他來他不來也沒有請假就丟了一個公文過來說不可出席原因是什麼也不講我想那個人權委員會並不是用4461號他沒有理由說不來那能不能回去請"},{"start":7872.265,"end":7886.005,"text":"副秘書長 轉告人權委員會不要這麼囂張今天立法院在審查法案這個跟一百萬的新住民有關你不要讓這一百萬的新住民覺得監察院就是看不起他們"},{"start":7887.287,"end":7903.205,"text":"如果今天依照憲政規定而不來我覺得我可以接受 依照461不來我也可以接受但是你既然不屬於四字461的範圍內你就一句不客出席 然後就不來了那你這麼看不起台灣有一百萬的新住民嗎"},{"start":7905.049,"end":7930.225,"text":"委員說明其實就我所知人權委員會是有正式的公文然後交給司法法治委員會副秘書長正式的公文你要經過召委的同意這可不可以麻煩你們了解一下今天沒有人同意他而且不管是各部會的首長來跟我們請假因為說明原因我們都是盡可能的都會同意"},{"start":7930.845,"end":7958.056,"text":"但是今天貴院的人權委員會他就一份公務過來我不想來不可出席然後這樣子這個完全不符合過往立法院的慣例所以可不可以請轉告不要這麼看不起別人新住民的人權也非常的重要所以不是人權委員會不用管啦好不好好這麻煩你那我也在這邊說明了拜託人權委員會的這位各位委員以及"},{"start":7958.936,"end":7972.875,"text":"主管不要看不起立法院立法院在審查的這些新住民他們不是外國人他們是中華民國的國民他們也有投票權他們也有參政權不要這樣子搞他們麻煩下一次請"},{"start":7973.956,"end":7999.192,"text":"人權委員會來的時候 邀請他們過來沒辦法來 請說明請假的理由 讓召委判斷不管針對哪一黨都一樣 不是一個公文來我不爽來就不來 沒有那種事所以剛複密的這個答覆 我沒有辦法接受不是他有跟我講就算數 好不好好 謝謝複密好 謝謝吳委員那接下來我們請翁小林委員那也麻煩這個代理秘書長剛剛那個750萬的這個項目喔信箱就發給每個這個出席委員 好不好"},{"start":8009.653,"end":8010.274,"text":"有關於你們這次規劃"},{"start":8029.195,"end":8049.003,"text":"APOR這樣的會議的規劃在你們這次的報告裡面根本呈現的非常的簡略那麼我們也沒有看到你們相關的議程那以及各個部分的經費的使用所以呢我想這個其實是有必要在今天"},{"start":8049.883,"end":8074.471,"text":"審查預算之前你們就應該要把相關的計劃的規劃的議程以及費用明細表要先提供給我們委員會這邊一份你們是不是有可能在待會要討論之前就先送給我們大家委員們看報告委員沒問題我們現在就準備對那請你們可能要盡快去作業好的那麼接下來我要請教的就是是"},{"start":8076.298,"end":8088.134,"text":"其實這段時間以來大家其實對於監察院的表現都很不滿意認為監察委員好像只是打蒼蠅不打老虎我們也知道"},{"start":8091.041,"end":8106.904,"text":"賴清德總統他上任這一年來其實行政機關跟立法機關這裡的對抗的情況非常的這個嚴重那麼往往立法院通過的法案或通過的預算案那麼行政院"},{"start":8107.865,"end":8135.148,"text":"或是他其他部會就消極抵抗不執法也不依法行政那麼針對這個部分其實行政監察院作為國家的最高監察機關本來就有權要去主動調查公務人員以及政府機關的工作為師如果有涉嫌到違法事實的情況那麼並且可以立案調查就是監察委員可以自己主動的立案調查必要的時候還可以成立彈劾案"},{"start":8136.149,"end":8152.194,"text":"那麼請問就是副秘書長就是在最近這段時間我們其實想請教從來政府執政以來目前有多少個案件是由立法委員自己主動申請調查的自動立案調查"},{"start":8153.806,"end":8178.297,"text":"委員是講監察委員嗎?對監察委員從賴政府是今年嗎?對在今年來其實跟委員說明就是第六屆我們是109年8月1號開始所成立的調查案有1194件然後中間立案主動依照監察法適應細則第24條主動立案調查的超過六成"},{"start":8180.093,"end":8197.477,"text":"這樣好了 因為我大概也看了一下你們這一年來其實監察委員主動立案調查大概也就是四五十件嘛並不多監察委員自己申請調查自己申請調查的部分要不然的話就之後請你們再給我詳細的數字簡單來說就是其實像是這個"},{"start":8205.219,"end":8226.068,"text":"像這段時間我們知道像立法院他通過了原住民的計法補償條例本來要給原住民的計法補償金可是行政院根本不編列預算也不發給那立法院之前通過了114年的預算明明就是要給這個地方政府一般性補助款的法定預算我們一毛錢也沒有刪可是行政院可以說不給就不給但像這樣子嚴重引發爭議的案子"},{"start":8232.01,"end":8258.704,"text":"請問目前為止有沒有任何一位監察委員有申請自動調查委員說明有關於那個原住民補償金的部分不是這個目前這個蔡英明這個這個這樣子的角度可是有類似的調查案有關於補償金的部分然後另外是八千名就是636億行政院刪除地方一般性補助款的"},{"start":8260.281,"end":8263.405,"text":"那個目前沒有好 那我要講就是說其實因為這個都已經引發了中央政府跟地方政府對於相關的案子的這個嚴重的這個有嚴重的爭議那我認為說其實監察院應該要出來了解"},{"start":8276.3,"end":8301.211,"text":"主動調查是不是行政院以及他的這個相關的機關有一些違法的這個決定啊那麼監察院本來就有立案派查原則那我認為說其實有些案子基本上已經符合監察院可以自己主動申請監察委員可以主動申請調查的一些原則包含行政違失或是有沒有濫用職權自以妄為等等會侵犯到基本人權的這些"},{"start":8302.712,"end":8330.292,"text":"條件這個部分的話我希望監察院能夠主動調查那另外本席還要再取發一個案子就是NCC委員的名單行政院到目前為止一直也沒送出依照規定他其實早應該要送出第一波的名單他已經撤回撤回之後當時行政院長有承諾說4月5月就要提出到現在為止也沒有提出因為行政院院長的不提出NCC委員的名單以至於讓NCC內部無法運作"},{"start":8332.493,"end":8351.011,"text":"這難道不是一個嚴重的違法失職嗎對監察委員是不是應該監察院應該也要主動去了解相關的這個決定者有沒有違法失職我剛剛說明就是有關NCC的運作的部分其實監察院有蠻多的調查案可是就是"},{"start":8352.531,"end":8373.799,"text":"所以監察院已經有開始進行調查了嗎可是委員說的人數不足沒有辦法換照這個issue呢目前是沒有然後呢要跟委員說明監察委員是依據法律獨立行使職權那委員要什麼時候調查調查什麼內容其實是各界是要遵守的但是呢我要這邊要提醒這個監察院的"},{"start":8375.78,"end":8393.507,"text":"就是因為這些都是眾所矚目的案子而且它會影響到整個行政機關運作但是單純因為行政院院長的不作為或是消極怠惰那導致一個機關沒有辦法好好的正常運作那我覺得這個問題是嚴重的那麼另外還有再舉發另外一個案子就是陸委會陸委會現在它也是擴大曲解法律的解釋在兩岸人民關係條例裡面"},{"start":8403.31,"end":8407.894,"text":"那麼他做了一些這個不當的解釋以至於就是造成整個的陸配早期就來台灣生活的陸配那麼以及就是出生在大陸的當時早就回來的台灣資質他們還必須要大費周章的跑回到大陸再去申請一個什麼這個無戶籍證明等等那麼我覺得這個部分其實也已經嚴重影響到我們台灣人民的這個權利"},{"start":8430.171,"end":8449.269,"text":"那麼事實上監察院也應該要主動的去調查但是你們都沒有做所以也請監察院應該要回去好好的去檢視現在大家社會上面眾所矚目的案子是不是應該要積極的來立案調查以上提供給秘書長請帶回去給監察委員們參考好 謝謝謝謝翁委員接下來我們請賴會員找委"},{"start":8460.593,"end":8468.544,"text":"謝謝主席我們請那個主計總處副主計長跟我們的監察院代理秘書長請這個副主計長跟這個代理秘書長"},{"start":8472.231,"end":8476.893,"text":"從去年的統計,前面的經濟成長率從4.59%提高到4.84%人均GDP達到3.4萬美金"},{"start":8493.559,"end":8504.843,"text":"那今年的第一季的經濟成長率其實也非常好那我們從四年初我們初步的一個估計是5.37後來又拉到5.48那其實產業也提前拉貨就是我們的出口"},{"start":8513.826,"end":8530.116,"text":"那在第一季我們的GDP已經衝上了5.48了那為什麼就是說主計總署在評估今年的下半年的經濟情勢會不好是什麼原因為什麼主計總署這樣看壞下半年的經濟成長率呢"},{"start":8532.178,"end":8558.278,"text":"跟我們報告就是主要下半年是受到這個對等關稅的這個不確定性的因素的影響那當然年代就是說前上半年因為已經提前拉貨了所以這種種因素的影響所以會影響到下半年就是GDP的成長我們就會認為就是會比較沒有上半年那麼好"},{"start":8559.199,"end":8579.811,"text":"所以主計總署採取一個比較保守的一個看法 一個做法是不是這樣子對 主要還是在意很多的不確定性對 疫情在下半年可能是會狀況比較不好是好 這個會不會有過度保守呢"},{"start":8581.725,"end":8598.628,"text":"就是我們GDP都會持續來滾動檢討那我們就是按計根據那個結果我們如果說原來的有一些不確定性因素比較確定的時候那有該需要調整"},{"start":8599.93,"end":8625.972,"text":"我們滾動式檢討啦所以說我們也密切的在觀察就是整個經濟的一個走向那我在這裡再跟副座做一個探討就是地方補助款地方補助款應該納入財政均衡的一個條件其實從六都的統籌分配款裡頭我還是再重述一次就是台南市不僅是分配的最少那也是增加的最少"},{"start":8627.614,"end":8634.443,"text":"這個從今年那個這個月月初的時候我們在6月4號其實我也詢問過主計長在六個都的統籌分配款裡頭其實我們都看到了台南市在統籌分配款裡頭它其實分配最少增加最少"},{"start":8645.077,"end":8670.567,"text":"尤其是在一般性補助款還被刪了最多那如果我們從這個一般性補助那個補助款裡頭刪27%的這一個調整之下我們看到了台南還有就是高雄、彰化、屏東這四個縣市又被刪了最多這種齊頭是其實是非常的不合理不知道那個戶座你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":8673.028,"end":8689.418,"text":"原來我們制度設計的確就是說我是中央統籌這個統籌分配稅款加一半性補助把這兩個項目加在一起看來讓這個地方縣市之間可以均衡那所以"},{"start":8690.499,"end":8708.581,"text":"一般性補助款就是來就是說調整那個統籌費那邊的部分我想你也知道這個方式其實是不是最好的一個方法那我們其實基本上你們現在也在研擬一個比較好的方式那我們再回到就是今天"},{"start":8709.202,"end":8724.04,"text":"就是監察院這個750萬的這個預算那監察院要動用到第二億倍金那動用到第二億倍金其實常態性我們都是會在下半年來動用這個一倍金"},{"start":8725.549,"end":8752.76,"text":"如果你認為說監察院他現在在這個750萬動用第二一倍金他的合理性在哪裡主要在於因為他是全數被刪減所以的確讓他的業務無法推動所以因為九月初就要來舉辦了所以我們認為就是應該就是依我22預算法22條來經行這份同意後來動之第二一倍金"},{"start":8753.14,"end":8780.661,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝副主席長接著我們請王代理秘書長我想秘書長那個副主席講得非常清楚就是說在這個審計部的預算裡頭你們一年的預算有多少十一十一點你一年的預算有多少十點九你一年的預算有多少十點九"},{"start":8786.401,"end":8808.914,"text":"10.97億10.97億對然後稅出稅入這些預算你有沒有看清楚我想這個MU長是你今天給我們的你是要來尋求我們同意嘛對不對是的支持你們的提案嘛是那我們看得出來就是說你的那個報告其實只有"},{"start":8810.799,"end":8839.018,"text":"這個不會超過 我相信不會超過五百個字啊那後來你又補上了這一個附件就是說這個在整個年會裡頭所有的細則 詳細的一個資料那我們也知道說在國內其實辦這樣的一個活動是我們台灣的一個光榮那我們也一定要支持你那可是你們提出來的就是這麼少的一個資料"},{"start":8840.605,"end":8853.752,"text":"這個實在是讓我們有點尷尬這要跟委員說明這你看過嗎你看過嗎是的是的你看過你還拿出來是是委員因為那是你知道今天要來備詢那你也同意這樣的資料出來"},{"start":8855.731,"end":8874.416,"text":"因為那是我的口頭的報告 妳同意嗎 妳同意我們檢討 因為真的是非常希望立法院能夠支持然後我們有報告不足的地方 我們知道妳的預算非常少預算非常少 妳光是一個衛福部的預算就要2800億的"},{"start":8876.636,"end":8902.946,"text":"那這麼少的預算要做這麼多的一個事情當然你們有你們的一個困境可是如果像這樣子這麼消極的態度其實我想我們應該要做很多很多的一個努力啦那當然就是說沿著上這個750萬我也當然是支持那我想在這裡再特別提醒監察院我們應該做更多的一個修正做更多的一個努力好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":8905.619,"end":8907.401,"text":"我們謝謝賴會員召委謝謝李昆城委員接著我們請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":8929.714,"end":8935.161,"text":"呃謝謝召委我們先請這個監察院的代理秘書長好請王代理秘書長"},{"start":8939.793,"end":8950.659,"text":"委員好代理民主黨請問一下剛剛有問到就是說這個今年度的你們的預算是10.97億那其中人事費是8億多然後這個業務費是2億4237萬但是被刪掉了96%左右這個刪掉了2億3181萬"},{"start":8963.746,"end":8986.996,"text":"那所以呢這邊有一張表這個應該是正確的啦因為這個是你們副院長召開記者會的這個表格啦所以一般行政百分之百刪除了議事業務百分之百刪除了調查巡查業務百分之百刪除了然後財產申報凍結百分之六十一請問一下這有解凍了嗎有解凍了齁那國家人權業務"},{"start":8988.953,"end":8998.317,"text":"3減了97%那營建工程動32%有解凍了嗎已經解凍所以我們今天要看的這個預算就是在這個1856萬裡面的義式業務是不是"},{"start":9002.619,"end":9024.325,"text":"那請問一下那這個監察院除了這個要用二倍金之外還有沒有什麼其他的預算要用到二倍金因為監察院的相關預算被煽動得很嚴重所以那為了維持監察院的相關職權的運作所以我們還有另外再申請動之第二餘倍金有多少7900萬"},{"start":9026.522,"end":9032.909,"text":"七千九百萬是好我看這個那這個就要請這個我們主席總書的這個副主席長"},{"start":9043.056,"end":9069.345,"text":"那請教一下副主席長這個監察院除了今天這一筆750萬之外要動到二倍金我看他們還有提出的需求是7968萬這個也要用到二倍金那當然是要含這750萬嘛那我先請教一下齁這個750萬當初這個在野黨要刪除預算的時候你有沒有去跟他們講說這個750萬是今天今年要在台北辦這個APPLE的這個年會"},{"start":9071.257,"end":9092.784,"text":"我先問一下這個應該是我們代理秘書長在司法法制委員會審查的時候其實我們都會盡量的說明可是因為是全署保留出委員會所以沒有審查沒有審查然後就直接到了這一個院會的時候就直接就被刪掉了"},{"start":9094.963,"end":9108.109,"text":"因為這個是含在這個議事業務費裡面嘛百分之百被刪除了嘛1856萬嘛 對不對所以你們當初也有跟在野黨委員講說這750萬是今年要在台北辦這個年會的有"},{"start":9110.73,"end":9125.755,"text":"所以又繞了一大圈嘛去年你們有跟他講今年初有跟他們講然後呢結果被全數刪除了那因為九月份要辦了嘛九月份要辦了今天再來我們這個財政還有司法法制聯席會議希望用到二倍金嘛"},{"start":9126.195,"end":9141.368,"text":"那我早上聽了在野黨的委員的說法應該是會支持我也希望沒有意外但是我就覺得說何必繞這一圈呢明明已經知道說這筆預算就今年一定要用那就辦的這個年會之前"},{"start":9142.489,"end":9160.048,"text":"就答應人家今年要在台灣舉辦那結果呢繞了一圈那今年再做這個要求這個要用到二倍金我覺得如果省預算好好省的話這筆預算就不應該刪除掉了那我再請問一下副組長除了監察院的這個7968萬之外"},{"start":9165.194,"end":9172.245,"text":"還有總統府、行政院、不當的當餐、慣例委員會都有提出二倍金的需求是不是?是,總共1.5億1億5541萬對"},{"start":9177.509,"end":9205.068,"text":"我看總統府他們是這個需要416萬不當當常委員會504萬行政院是6652萬監察院是7968萬監察院剛剛有提過了嘛那我看了一下那我先問一下程旭復委了沒有就我的了解已經復委了那就等安排就等安排那因為這一筆是九月份要辦所以我們就先拿出來單獨先做處理就對了"},{"start":9205.956,"end":9232.167,"text":"那剩下的還要再排我看這個除了司法內政那當然我們財政嘛對不對三個委員會三個委員會再辦一次二倍金的這個預算對我看一下總統府他的預算其實蠻可憐的水電費這是這一個應該是這個憲兵營他們用的然後呢行政院"},{"start":9233.947,"end":9262.27,"text":"這個需要六千六百多萬呢有很多的是這個給我們的這個地方的這個聯合服務的中心的業務嘛然後不當常常管理委員會五百零四萬這是跟人民權利回覆相關審查案件需要的那監裁院就更多了七千九百多萬因為你們當初被砍得太慘了啦那我也希望說這一筆預算除了今天希望順利通過之外那我也希望說接下來"},{"start":9263.383,"end":9286.894,"text":"關於這個總統府行政院監察院不當當場管理委員會的這個預算 二倍金都能夠順利來通過了那我再請問一下那副主席長請回我請問一下代理秘書長我看你們的報告裡面除了這個會議之外那還有一個還有一個會議是這個這要去哪裡啊依比例"},{"start":9290.545,"end":9314.155,"text":"我看一下今年要赴秘魯是不是啊伊比利美洲監察使聯盟年會有這個嗎這個是另外一個國際組織就是FIOFEAR我們去年是從觀察員的身份變成正式會員要去秘魯出席年會"},{"start":9314.835,"end":9334.405,"text":"可是目前這筆不在750萬裡面這個年會是這個伊比利美洲監察使聯盟這個是不是FEAR年會這是哪時候這是預計10月9號10月9號跟10號再密錄所以我們有答應要去了要看"},{"start":9337.119,"end":9362.919,"text":"有沒有經費人家有邀請我們去參加的嗎我們現在也是會員對那所以本來也在這個業務費裡面是是多少錢啊是1900裡面我們有放進去是多少錢201萬5千元200萬201萬5千元沒有這次一起提出來這次沒有應該一起提出來我相信在野黨不會反對才對啦"},{"start":9364.076,"end":9390.763,"text":"所以你們就包在你們下次要提的這個二倍機裡面就對了我是希望說不管是來台灣舉辦這個國際年會或是我們去參加這個年會其實都是用中華民國的名義出去啦那也是這一個讓全世界各國知道說中華民國台灣要走出去啦我也希望說這筆預算能夠順利的來通過啦好 謝謝主席 謝謝戴琳秘書長"},{"start":9391.223,"end":9394.284,"text":"好 謝謝昆誠 接著請陳益臻委員質詢謝謝主席 是先請這個監察院 這個是代理秘書長好 那個我們請監察院王代理秘書長委員好那個王秘書長"},{"start":9417.612,"end":9434.009,"text":"這個請教一下喔你們今天要來要這個是有關這個人權業務的錢嘛對吧我們是國家人權業務不是是要去開那個會嘛750萬那個嘛不是不是我們是主辦APPLE的年會對對對但是是跟人權有關的嘛對不對沒有這是這是監察不是這個嗎"},{"start":9435.69,"end":9450.095,"text":"這是監察院參加國際組織主要是你看2025年對不對第37屆紐澳及太平洋地區監察史年會計人權國際研討會這不是跟人權有關嗎是這個議題裡面有牽涉到人權對嘛所以這是我們會議的名稱是這樣子會議名稱就是有相關的嘛跟人權有相關的嘛那監察院的人權委員會有這個單位對吧"},{"start":9464.185,"end":9472.648,"text":"檢察院在109年8月1號有國家人權委員會他的領導是誰啊他的主任委員是本院的院長那院長不是身體不舒服嗎那這個要怎麼開啊 你們有在開嗎"},{"start":9487.506,"end":9514.189,"text":"我們都有正常的開會除了主任委員還有其他什麼人員總共有十位委員每年有十位委員然後有七位是你們的國家人權委員會除了院長以外還有多少人呢還有就是有十位還有其他十位就對了所以有沒有主任委員沒差就對了沒有影響報告委員還有副主任委員還有其他監察委員副主任委員是誰呢這一年度是王宥林委員"},{"start":9515.271,"end":9533.387,"text":"王委員是副主任委員是的OK那秘書長有沒有擔任什麼職位嗎在這個人權委員會裡沒有沒有齁沒有齁我們是列席人員所以金桃院現在只有副院長嘛齁院長休息很久了齁身體不舒服然後秘書長你也是代理的嘛齁是所以對你們的折騰運作有什麼影響嗎"},{"start":9535.824,"end":9551.823,"text":"我們副院長有對外有說明過在這樣的情況之下監察權還是要落實的執行然後徹底的對外要執行但是也沒院長也沒差你要開這個國際人權這個到時候誰要來主持我們的院長也是我們人權委員會主"},{"start":9553.465,"end":9569.933,"text":"的這個主任委員都不在啊來我想請問一下你們一直要開這個國際的人權會議我們在主辦單位我理解了我們當然也是歡迎世界各地來開這個彰顯這個但是除了跟世界各地之後這樣交流以外我想了解一下你們這個人權委員會有一個系統性的調查有一個作業程序對吧"},{"start":9573.174,"end":9597.579,"text":"112年的時候我們在總預算裡頭做一個決議事項您看一下喔這個我螢幕上有喔112年監察院預算人權業務裡頭編了一億多嘛那時候我們有做一個決議喔對於金門過往遭軍方強徵土地事後卻無法還第一名這相關事件監察院人權委員會應該在委員會提案就本案進行系統性的調查然後後面你看喔你們系統性調查喔當然你們有一些議題選定啊派誰去啊調查訪問啊好已經兩年了"},{"start":9600.499,"end":9605.291,"text":"現在進行到哪一步 你這個作業程序的九步裡頭走到哪一步我可不可以請國家安全委員會執行秘書來說明"},{"start":9611.087,"end":9612.468,"text":"有關金門過往遭軍方及政府強徵土地案"},{"start":9641.247,"end":9647.333,"text":"那現在是114年嘛 那是112年的決議嘛現在就是以前的未來那現在進度到哪裡 人權委員會對於這個土地爭議進度到哪裡是 謝謝那委員跟您報告就是後來113年我們就起了一個委託研究案那就是盤整整個國內我知道 你趕快一個時間請問這個程序你走到哪裡了"},{"start":9662.586,"end":9677.383,"text":"對 那因為114年其實我們本來也是要啟動一個就是針對這部分要做系統性的一個調查案你們走到哪裡啊因為我們後來就是都沒有動是不是因為我們的114年的預算後來就是被刪掉了那113呢"},{"start":9678.925,"end":9695.564,"text":"113就是我們起的這個你去年在做什麼委託研究案然後已經對外公佈所以來你給我一個完整的書面答覆我表示都沒有在做事嘛因為我們時間結束了我們委託研究案已經完畢了所以你告訴我你的這個系統性調查走到哪裡喔要書面報告給我喔來書面報告給我喔因為我還要問別的問題啊"},{"start":9699.148,"end":9728.22,"text":"還有這個有兩位監委賴貞昌跟敏玉榮到金門巡查有很多土地案件金門的一些建設經費自來水跟大橋的事情那後期的有一些定期的公開好像都沒有很多民眾澄清事件帶回去以後都沒有回來啊這個部分也是不是你們是不是對我們金門縣政府或是我們金門縣的民眾澄清案件都不搭那個跟委員說明其實就是因為監察院監察院的調查巡查費用是完全被刪除不是 今年嘛刪除是"},{"start":9729.802,"end":9739.359,"text":"114 加19去年去年去年1 2 1 3那個我說不是今年的事情我們就看你們以前執行怎麼樣因為監察人常常去嘛"},{"start":9740.448,"end":9751.877,"text":"你不要跟我講 你就是你們做得不夠好我們才會去刪預算啊如果做得很好當然我們希望趕快做啊剛剛我跟你說那個順序都沒有告訴我做到哪裡啊反正只想開會嘛 跟國際人士開會啊對不對 跟國家 像花錢請世界各地人來開會好事不是不好 問題你們該做的事情沒有做啊來 主計總數來 因為剩下16秒 停一下 15秒"},{"start":9765.331,"end":9780.138,"text":"這個我要問的是事實上剛好看其他委員有問過了就是這個有關法律問題預算法第二水條第二項這個如果要用這個第二頁備金第七十條也有說我看剛也有回答林德夫委員但是我看起來也是不符合要動用的這個條款"},{"start":9781.348,"end":9801.327,"text":"就是70條 預算法第70條第一項有三款理由要動用這個第二位悲劇我們看這個監察院這個會議並沒有符合任何一款啊所以我們贏的是22條沒錯 22條是說經立法院同意這個我也知道這一條但前提是你要先符合資格才可以送來立法院經立法院同意啊"},{"start":9802.507,"end":9829.334,"text":"那是成就的條件立法院成就條件是22條 沒錯如果立法院同意就過了嘛問題是怎麼樣可以進入二倍金的使用有這三項啊 原列計劃原列計劃事實需要不足的時候原列計劃增加業務 沒有嘛 沒有增加業務正式需要必須臨時 也不是臨時因為早就略了 被刪除而已原列計劃因事實需要奉主修訂 也沒有你要先符合70條才可以去用20就是你要先符合資格嘛 資格是70條然後才去做22條的啊"},{"start":9833.117,"end":9845.616,"text":"70條是屬於授權行政院先動之再備查但是22條是沒有授權一定要立法院同意才可以動之我覺得這個我們不是要用第二預備金"},{"start":9846.718,"end":9863.663,"text":"不過沒關係啦 因為這件事情大家也是合議啦只是跟你們講說 這個監察院重點是最後一句話 監察院人權委會有關金門的這個事項調查的事項 還有這個土地爭議我們已經在一本一十天就決定你們要做再不做的話 怕你們以後也沒機會做啦好 謝謝"},{"start":9867.103,"end":9877.965,"text":"主席在這裡做成決議我們的人權委員會你們的一個進度必須要給陳一貞委員好 謝謝接著請吳世耀委員質詢謝謝主席請代理秘書長代理秘書長"},{"start":9894.998,"end":9903.091,"text":"委員好今天我們在這裡都要搶救人權預算搶救外交預算也搶救我們監察院的預算下一頁怎麼了"},{"start":9908.809,"end":9934.703,"text":"那這一次的預算二崁二山監察院是重災戶那我看到你們除了這750萬現在排入議程後續還會有大概7900多萬希望一起來解除這個希望能夠啟用二倍金我非常的支持因為畢竟不是只有這個活動需要去協助你們正常運作所以我非常的支持你們後續提出來的案子"},{"start":9936.618,"end":9951.017,"text":"那同樣的人權會這一次也是受了蠻嚴重的這個業務的影響那我也支持你們除了這750萬的APOR的會議之外另外有需要的一併來提出好下頁"},{"start":9952.762,"end":9974.965,"text":"今天這個有點怪喔 怎麼變這樣子的方式 不是一頁一頁嗎好 但事實上我也在這裡要還原一下JCC野黨的委員在二砍二山預算其實這不是個案對於監察院下了這麼重的重手其實他是有一個計劃性的目的在進行 因為"},{"start":9975.906,"end":9990.697,"text":"要基於政治的操作鎖定了特定機關我這邊列出來的跟監察院一樣是這一次的重災戶包括NCC、述發部、陸委會、外交部跟文化部關鍵的理由是"},{"start":9991.397,"end":10012.005,"text":"在野黨的委員透過預算的刪減或凍結讓這些關乎政府在國際可以發聲的部會不管是社群不管是文化媒介不管是主管媒體或者甚至外交部都全面的讓藉由預算的刪減讓台灣被消失下一頁"},{"start":10015.806,"end":10026.953,"text":"而當中的特定經費重中之重就是台灣要走到世界去讓世界聽到台灣聲音的各類外交相關旅費的預算煤燻費的預算都被迫來難以運作"},{"start":10033.018,"end":10036.181,"text":"讓台灣晉升將台灣鎖國這恐怕是今天我們在面對750萬的這個重要的國際年會在台灣背後我們一定要讓社會知道"},{"start":10047.554,"end":10071.802,"text":"不過在野黨的委員不同意依循預算法22條的授權讓我們能夠用動二來致應這個緊急的國際人權年會外交年會就是他們依舊是吃了襯托鐵了心要讓台灣在世界被消音被消失這背後的政治目的 浮躁斑斑"},{"start":10072.762,"end":10078.31,"text":"所以我也呼籲在野黨的委員這恢復的不是只有一個750萬的預算它恢復的是讓台灣可以在國際社會持續的發聲好 下一頁"},{"start":10086.124,"end":10114.086,"text":"那剛剛陳玉珍委員對於人權會也跟您做一下科普啊因為這是我們司法法治委員會其實國家人權委員會在依循1993年的巴黎原則監察院2020年跟上了我們成立的國家人權委員會下一頁而爭取入這個Apple APR的正式會員是2002年對不對然後我們這是第幾次來爭取主辦年會"},{"start":10115.779,"end":10119.141,"text":"第三次所以在馬英九總統的任內2011年台灣是第一次舉辦了APOR的年會馬英九前總統也親自出席因為馬英九總統說他是代表台灣簽署國際人權公約的總統"},{"start":10134.112,"end":10154.006,"text":"讓世界上看到台灣保障人權的努力馬前總統也背書了APO2年會對於台灣在國際人權能見度跟監察室的相關權限的經驗交流很重要的意義所以請國民黨的委員不要二砍二刪預算現在是你們來搶救預算來回應馬前總統主張的關鍵時刻下一頁"},{"start":10164.393,"end":10185.768,"text":"而同樣的這樣一個組織十個會員國台灣作為亞洲的人權燈塔應當把握我們年會的主辦機會更重要這個年會不是只講人權我看到這一次的議程還包括AI跟人權的關係現在在教育委員會同樣在審台灣的AI基本法"},{"start":10186.528,"end":10209.315,"text":"我們如何讓AI在人權法制面的健全能夠有利於立法院的監督跟立法這個年會我甚至認為立法院的委員都要關心因為這樣一個國際的場域可以讓我們受惠良多而這樣一個年會也包括世界各國對於監察權制度的優化"},{"start":10210.675,"end":10225.593,"text":"很重要的討論如果在野黨的委員要廢監察院立法院要啟動修憲委員會的討論後續需要多元的討論是不是監察制度在台灣要廢除台灣要從五權變四權"},{"start":10227.515,"end":10247.225,"text":"其實這一個年會也是一個重要的可以聆聽國際意見國際監察室制度的行使的重要機會所以在野黨的委員如果要費監察院這樣一個年會也可以提供很多我們在憲政制度精進的觀點"},{"start":10248.726,"end":10270.659,"text":"所以我的分析跟我的認知這樣750萬的預算恢復它不是只有人權預算也不是只有對於台灣在國際發生的機會我們更要搶救也需要透過這重要的年會對於台灣現在倡議中在野黨力推中的廢除監察院是否合宜"},{"start":10271.579,"end":10281.864,"text":"在野黨委員是不是要跟上民進黨長期以來的主張五權變三權其實這個年會也扮演了非常重要的角色我這樣的理解您認同嗎"},{"start":10283.325,"end":10307.953,"text":"完全認同謝謝委員所以他不是只有人權的分享他還有國際各國存有監察制度的國家對於現存制度的很多優劣的資訊的分享是是因為這是難得的監察的國際組織那其實在監察組織裡面除了人權以外民主還有善治都是非常重要的核心理念所以透過這樣子的一個"},{"start":10309.153,"end":10329.23,"text":"交流其實是能夠讓有關監察權的提升是非常有幫助的是所以監察權在台灣是存是廢如何的精進或者是要如何的來做調配我認為這樣的年會可以作為我們立法院修憲委員會的一個很重要的意見的參照好最後一頁"},{"start":10331.892,"end":10348.325,"text":"依據預算法22條的授權監察院除了今天750萬這個是先打頭陣後面我們送出來的7900多萬的爭取恢復動二的是可以幫助你們哪些部分不再被癱瘓"},{"start":10350.72,"end":10375.53,"text":"因為這次被刪減的預算比如說是一般行政是完全刪除調查巡查也是完全完全刪除還有那所以調查巡查一定是運用於相關的巡迴監察跟調查職權的行使然後另外還有議事業務等等的如果是我們有非常仔細的盤點如果讓這樣子的一個比例的七千九百萬是能夠讓監察職權一直到今年底"},{"start":10378.932,"end":10404.39,"text":"基本上還可以免為運作當一天合上撞一天鐘我想這些監察委員這段時間受限於預算被刪減而沒有辦法去履行他們的憲政義務憲政忠誠的職責我覺得這也是監委們大家心急如焚我除了支持750萬的這個APPLE年會的預算恢復我也非常的支持嚴格來講他不叫預算恢復"},{"start":10406.751,"end":10420.355,"text":"他是說用動二來支應那我也支持你們後續七千九百多萬的預算的執行好來爭取必要的運作好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝四友接著請李燕秀委員質詢感謝周偉我是不是可以邀請主席副主席講好副主席講"},{"start":10444.752,"end":10469.389,"text":"謝謝主席講我一向非常關心民生的議題那政府對於現在民眾的對於整個經濟的感受度跟數據上我想透過今天的質詢跟你探討我們在今年包括國泰金控在今年6月份公佈的國民經濟的信心調查當中多數的民眾對於今年的經濟成長其實都不抱太大的期待跟樂觀"},{"start":10470.41,"end":10478.714,"text":"平均的預期值大概只有2.61%但是也將近有六成三的民眾認為我們今年2025年的經濟成長會低於3%一個是民眾對於今年經濟成長的信心指數"},{"start":10486.537,"end":10507.591,"text":"大家覺得是不樂觀 會低於3%那我再提個一個數據給您也就是在今年四月份的時候外商美商在公布今年第二季全球企業台灣企業樂觀指數分別全球的企業是會下降1.3%外商評估全球平均會掉1.3%但是台灣會掉25%"},{"start":10514.758,"end":10539.366,"text":"主席長副主席長這個數據凸顯兩個問題第一個問題是如果外商都認為我們有可能信心值會掉25%那一般投資者是這樣當他對一件事情或一個國家大環境沒有信心的時候很多外商他就觀望他不敢投資這是第一點我要凸顯的會有這個氛圍第二"},{"start":10540.166,"end":10545.02,"text":"如果國人會預估今年景氣不好那我就保守我不敢花錢"},{"start":10546.567,"end":10568.6,"text":"你身上如果每個月只有賺三萬塊你可能就會想辦法下半年經濟景氣不好我不要花那麼多我除了基本的我的生活必須品重我不敢額外消費我不敢出國玩這兩件事情我想你大概能夠認同這是大環境上如果國際上外商評估我們的全球經濟不景氣甚至全球是會掉1.3%台灣掉25%這是美商的數據"},{"start":10573.042,"end":10597.034,"text":"那台灣國人國泰金控調查國人對於這個今年的信心指數大概都認為會低於3%在個人那個人如果對於經濟景氣不信心的話那當然對台灣整體環境來講企業沒有信心不敢投資個人沒有信心不敢消費那個對於整體台灣大環境的景氣那就是雙殺您了解我意思嗎"},{"start":10598.054,"end":10619.31,"text":"企業不敢投資那我就回過頭來問您這不是我說的是因為這是有數據這是有美商的數據鄧白氏的企業調查數據我拿這兩個信心指數來跟您做回應當然我們看到上半年度我們的CPI是控制得還不錯但是我講的是接下來我們第三季第四季"},{"start":10620.351,"end":10640.972,"text":"國際的環境對於台灣無論是關稅大環境到底對於我們會有什麼樣的影響那我就會過頭來請問副主席長你認為今年我們到底能不能夠保三經濟成長能不能夠保三你只要回應我之前因為我們今天時間不多我們對保三保有信心"},{"start":10642.133,"end":10667.971,"text":"你有信心因為基本上就是說這個對等關稅因為他剛開始這個32%對大家造成一個疑慮但是我們慢慢可以觀察到這個對等關稅他有一個緩衝期而且這個比例也不必然會那麼高你還是有信心那你接下來你有信心那我們還有沒有評估未來會有哪些變數"},{"start":10669.452,"end":10682.42,"text":"會對於寶三有影響衝擊譬如說現在國際的國際在以色列跟伊朗的戰爭等等對於原油會不會有什麼樣的影響對於進出口會不會有什麼樣的影響因為我們大家都知道在台灣我們市場上其實會受幾個環境的影響企業包括高利率的環境出口市場不穩定的話還有對於本地的消費如果疲軟的話那整體對於經濟來說包括企業投資都會有衝擊跟影響"},{"start":10699.691,"end":10727.634,"text":"所以 夫人你有沒有去評估過接下來有哪些變數會讓我們沒有辦法保三有沒有去算過以前都有評估過啊以前朱澤民都常常對於包括以前惡霧戰爭的時候朱澤民都有去評估過啊就是我們認為有保三的這個信心主要是基於就是說這一次的以一戰爭這個油價的上漲並沒有有我們原來預期的這麼高就是它並沒有漲到今年一月的高點它就往下調"},{"start":10728.234,"end":10734.7,"text":"妳們有沒有做過 因為每一件事情我們都會做額外的評估有哪些評估的變動的原因會去影響寶珊 妳覺得都不會完全不會有影響"},{"start":10739.684,"end":10745.688,"text":"美中對抗有轉單的效應也許對我們反而是有利的所以我們認為對寶山還是有信心包括以色列跟伊朗的戰爭後續的影響打打停停後續對於我們的影響會不會有影響?有沒有評估過?"},{"start":10765.28,"end":10777.965,"text":"就是因為基本上我們現在觀察到就是說這個油價的部分的上漲也不如原來所以為的衝擊那麼大所以你認為都不是問題那現在停火的協議都繼續在談當中所以我們認為這個對我們的衝擊應該是沒有原來所以為的那麼大"},{"start":10786.104,"end":10807.617,"text":"好 所以這都已經所有的因素都排除所以保三絕對有信心這也是一個答案因為我覺得主計處在評估這些數據很重要這是對於未來政府整個行政院在施政上或者在很多油電的控制上我覺得都是一個重要因素這企業也都在看好 我最後就是再提醒"},{"start":10808.477,"end":10833.006,"text":"現在通膨很嚴重外食族跟豬屋族很痛苦所以雖然CPI控制得不錯但是我希望你們給我一個答案因為大家都知道現在外食包括便當盒排骨便當一個漲到120這都是那豬屋這個是你們評估出來豬屋的漲的幅度是最高的為什麼會造成這些原因後續政府如何去解決這兩件事情"},{"start":10834.927,"end":10848.342,"text":"這是基層年輕人一般民眾有感的東西我們雖然說CPI控制得很好但是民眾感受度卻不是這樣子所以我要提醒你們後續如何去處理否則就是一個體感失溫的通膨你們覺得通膨控制得不錯"},{"start":10850.044,"end":10863.991,"text":"數據上看起來好像不錯但是事實上我們的外食族跟租屋族從數據上你也看得到這些數據事實上完全不是這麼一回事所以你們去評估好不好 謝謝是 我們會注意穩定物價 謝謝委員好 謝謝燕秀接著我們請陳佩儀委員質詢好 謝謝主席 那有請代理秘書長是 我們請代理秘書長"},{"start":10882.503,"end":10896.409,"text":"委員好好大林秘書長那個辛苦了今天關於要談這個750萬致應案的事情剛剛真的聽起來大部分人應該是同意的啦我不知道你現在在這邊你覺得樂不樂觀等一下我們要表決的時候"},{"start":10897.909,"end":10921.903,"text":"我省省乐观 非常希望能够通过我也希望可以通过 为什么这么说因为过去我们在做人权工作的时候其实我们知道人权工作的国际交流非常的重要那事实上呢 这个750万到底是跑到哪里去了我跟您再次确定一下它其实是被你们编在所谓意识业务当中那本来今年呢 申请的是1800多万 对吗"},{"start":10922.723,"end":10947.897,"text":"對,一千八百多,可是光是這個項目就七百五十萬這個April年會所以我認為這個荒謬的預算審議場景還有包含連國民黨的很多前輩啊大佬他們自己都說看到國民黨的委員荒謬奇怪的預算審查案提案四千多案造成這個荒謬的亂象可能國民黨委員都忘記但是我想大家都不會忘記所以我也很希望今天我們在後續的表決可以看到大家都是支持的"},{"start":10948.377,"end":10963.223,"text":"所以把人权的议题往下延伸我接下来跟您讨论也是要一并拜托您不知道后续的可能性啦关于2023年监察院出席这个伊比利美州监察使联盟我们有相关的会议然后看到这个出国报告"},{"start":10963.763,"end":10986.732,"text":"我要認同這個出國報告您不用擔心怎麼說因為這裡面很大篇幅提到兒少權益的部分我也認為這確實是我們台灣監察院或是過去在人權委員會其實都已經多有著墨並且看到確實是有些進展那當然我知道你們現在預算受到很大的影響可是我還是想要拜託帶回去相關的意見下一張如果之後"},{"start":10987.432,"end":10997.717,"text":"相關預算有機會調整讓你們可以好好用這些錢好好做這些事情我想要拜託監察院先整理這五年近五年監察院參加國外相關組織會議關於兒少政策監察的討論可不可以帶回台灣作為參考"},{"start":11004.54,"end":11030.017,"text":"那過去已經參加過的我不確定你們有沒有整理相關進度如果有的話可不可以先給我們那第二個就是未來在今年即將主辦這個April年會當中有沒有機會放入兒少權益的討論我剛剛看到你們手上給我這個議程我剛剛快速看了一眼有一個人權精神台灣民主跟監察權的發展或者是如何讓民眾有感或者是AI與人權民主與法治"},{"start":11030.757,"end":11055.784,"text":"不知道我們哪一個部分的議程你覺得有機會在子題討論的時候納入跟兒少權益監察政策有關的議程跟委員說明我們現在的議程是粗略的預估大概是這樣子就我個人覺得兒少權益的部分可能在第一場或者是在第三場都會可能還有機會去放進來"},{"start":11056.784,"end":11082.545,"text":"我們滿有共識的我們後續就再來討論 好不好謝謝你 謝謝好 接下來下一個我想要感謝監察院喔大家都一直在說監察院沒有做事我要說是因為他們不願意認真看監察院做了什麼事情喔光是我們辦公室過去這兩年半我們提到非常多兒少現場的困境我們除了開記者會跟相關主管機關對話我們實質的希望改善現場狀況我們看到監察院有非常多監委也主動提起調查"},{"start":11083.406,"end":11097.519,"text":"相關後續的進度我們非常肯定監察院這邊給予整個公民團體或者是學者專家團體或是在意這個議題的人的協助我可能請你說一下我們監察院怎麼看這個事情關於很多兒少政策"},{"start":11098.517,"end":11125.135,"text":"其實就像委員所觀察到的這一屆的監察委員對於CRC的相關的調查報告是非常分量是非常多的然後又加上我們有非常多的監委對這個議題都非常的有興趣而且有深深有非常有專業所以我們開啟了非常多的調查案甚至有些專案調查研究人權委員會也有類似的一個通案性的研究"},{"start":11125.675,"end":11147.647,"text":"所以我們所涉獵的密度是相當的高的好沒錯那後續我想除了我們現在已經看到的成果之外往下其實我還是想要持續拜託監察院關於單項協會治癒跟體育署之間怎麼說其實過去這幾年這兩年來其實有非常多單項協會的失職跟失責跟失能其實他們"},{"start":11148.707,"end":11176.25,"text":"這些不作為導致了現場第一線運動員的權益受損包含昨天我們還看到女足公會發了一個聲明協會的不當安排班機的事情嚴重影響選手的權益可是其實協會的監督主管機關是體育署那至於教育部那未來運動部要成立今年九月就成立我想我就先提早預告有很多關於體育界的困境真的未來要拜託監察院一起努力"},{"start":11176.67,"end":11199.008,"text":"尤其是體育界這些過去很多所謂大老觀念大老把持的這種實質上的做法真的也非常影響很多年輕人要投入所謂運動產業的意願這件事情那因為很多實質的問題我們沒有辦法在今天討論沒有關係我只是先把我們的期待跟很多國人對運動部成立之後的期待先帶給監察院"},{"start":11200.289,"end":11214.904,"text":"好 接下來下一個案子這個我也感謝監察院在施大案的協助跟相關調查可是很可惜的是我們看到外部的獨立調查小組做了一個停聘兩年的建議可是最後施大竟然決定讓這個行為人"},{"start":11216.826,"end":11232.934,"text":"他規定他只有不得在外兼職意思就是他可以繼續留在師大裡面那當時檢舉他的這些球員這些學生他未來如何面對這個人或者是他會不會再去影響其他的學生後續這個部分可不可以拜託監察院持續協助"},{"start":11235.825,"end":11257.02,"text":"這個調查案應該已經提出調查報告那後續呢都會持續追蹤我們還沒有結案好那最後一個就是關於體育班的政策我當然不會只有跟監察院說因為體育班有太多權益不對等的關係那未來體育班我們要如何協助我一樣把問題帶過來好不好我要拜託監察院持續關注我們體育班那我這邊是不是可以快速"},{"start":11267.626,"end":11272.727,"text":"好你們帶回去研究那我們辦公室再跟你們討論好不好好謝謝主席好謝謝佩儀委員那接著請王世堅委員質詢謝謝主席我請監察院王秘書長好那有請謝謝"},{"start":11298.029,"end":11315.959,"text":"我們今天的主題舉辦這個監察國際年會預算這750萬我的道理很簡單因為這是好不容易2022年2022年陳局院長的時候就爭取了"},{"start":11318.951,"end":11323.098,"text":"我們加入的名義是中華民國監察院 這確實不簡單而且這一次有115國 148個地區來參加"},{"start":11329.431,"end":11355.299,"text":"我認為監察院坐一天和尚敲一天鐘不管以後的存費那這個是另外一回事但是你們要積極做這件事情這是對的這個預算我支持所以我要跟你提的倒是另外一件事我希望你回去那跟貴院能夠提就是說對這個案子重啟調查"},{"start":11357.04,"end":11376.572,"text":"也就是說我們對於進口保健品高關稅的這個保護在去年五月那貴院就有提到說因為進口保健品這個關稅率偏高而且偏高的關稅率不但"},{"start":11379.405,"end":11401.304,"text":"這個沒辦法造成產業升級不但沒保護它反而讓劣質品衝刺而且不肖業者用這個不實的廣告大量的不實廣告反而影響了我們國民的健康所以當時貴院就立案就調查結果調查的結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":11406.591,"end":11418.985,"text":"調查的結果竟然是說這個高關稅保護是有助於保護產業的所以 查無不法謝謝指教天啊對於"},{"start":11422.847,"end":11439.1,"text":"你們一開始立案要調查 你們當初發動這個調查那時候說的說 劣質品充斥 業者暴力不實廣告 這些部分你們完全知字未提啦"},{"start":11440.201,"end":11460.108,"text":"調查的結果到底怎麼樣 沒有沒提就說這個高關稅保護是有必要的保護的這個產業我認為要不然當初你們就不要發動調查要調查就要針對這幾項你們自己提的這些重大的"},{"start":11462,"end":11479.65,"text":"這個錯誤缺失你們在調查報告裡面完全不提那你們還有提到你說而且啊你說這個高關稅啊30%沒錯但是只佔這個保健品價格的8.4%你說這個對價格影響不大那個秘書長我不曉得你知不知道我們就講善存好了"},{"start":11489.73,"end":11510.423,"text":"善存在美國沃爾瑪一般的銷售買平均下來一顆是2.8元台幣那在我們台灣啊你到任何的奧裝店去買平均一顆是6.9元"},{"start":11513.403,"end":11541.828,"text":"價差2.5倍我們國人要花2.5倍的價格那比方說這個藍莓精華你到日本的藥妝店去買的時候日本那邊賣的一顆是4.1元我們台灣竟然高達11.3元價差將近三倍啦所以秘書長我希望你帶回去說的就是說用合理的價格購買保健品"},{"start":11543.42,"end":11561.707,"text":"這是我們台灣人民的健康權這是我們全體民眾的健康權這一點一定要保障但是你看喔你們沒有調查的這幾項我就講你們沒調查的這幾項你比方說不實廣告"},{"start":11564.449,"end":11582.894,"text":"這些業者很多大量的用不實的廣告賺取暴利啊就像你們講的 你說38的高關稅結果只佔他售價的這個8.4是啊 那個差額在哪裡差額就是他們的暴利跟廣告費"},{"start":11583.934,"end":11606.165,"text":"好 那他們那麼高的廣告費喔我舉例 如果我們台灣的國民我們花三千塊買一罐保健品欸 竟然有兩千塊是在付廣告費那我們全體國人做何感想這是對的嗎 這是對的嗎然後這些不肖業者的惡劣 惡劣到什麼程度我舉例啦齁"},{"start":11607.996,"end":11626.873,"text":"我舉例 光是有一項 說它會這個四神經再生完全抑制脂肪積蓄這樣子的一個藥品光去年一年被違規開罰八十次 總共光這一項藥品就罰了一千九百七十八萬"},{"start":11628.215,"end":11637.446,"text":"難道所有這些生氣產業業者藥廠做健康食品的總共去年一年罰了四億三千六百二十八萬那為什麼罰這麼高罰四億三千多萬這些業者都不怕因為一年"},{"start":11646.667,"end":11656.869,"text":"他的產值我們現在一年國內消費保健品消費1400億到1700億中間裡面有1200億是因為高關稅的保護讓國內的產業他得益有1200億這麼大的自己國內的市場1200億"},{"start":11672.537,"end":11678.651,"text":"高獲利他罰四億他當然不怕而且最嚴重的那個主席抱歉我一定要講這一點講兩點"},{"start":11682.774,"end":11696.52,"text":"這一些啊 生技廠藥廠反噬了我們自己國內欸 大家不再去研發正式的藥品心臟病藥 高血壓藥 糖尿病藥正式的藥品不研發啦 為什麼那些研發困難 時間長 經費高他們啊 就用最輕鬆的 不需要什麼技術的保健品不是嗎 就荒廢了我們自己國內的製藥"},{"start":11710.445,"end":11728.937,"text":"這不打緊喔你們還說高關稅是保護產業這些產業這些生技廠藥廠絕大多數因為這樣的保護這十年來他們都上市上櫃了耶他們可曾為我們國人的健康付出"},{"start":11729.978,"end":11742.774,"text":"你研發藥品你不研發至少國外專利到了這些重要救命的藥品那你做學名藥加惠我們國的降低我們健保藥品的支出他們不"},{"start":11746.308,"end":11770.357,"text":"他們用健康品 研發健康品向經濟部用研發藥品的名義向經濟部申請補助到時候成品的時候他交出來他說藥品沒辦法研發出來變成保健品得到財政部的高關稅保護經濟部補助他們研發藥品他們拿出成果是保健品"},{"start":11771.537,"end":11800.083,"text":"難道接受30%高關稅的保護難道我們國人要花兩倍到三倍的費用來幫他們支付他們的暴力他們的不實廣告所以這一點秘書長你一定要帶回去好不好跟你們監察院商量只有你們有調查權只有你們有辦法遏止這種無理不法惡劣的行徑好不好"},{"start":11805.281,"end":11820.898,"text":"好 謝謝王委員好 秘書長 戴琳秘書長請回 謝謝好 下一位黃珊珊委員謝謝主席 我想請戴秘書長好 戴秘書長 謝謝委員好"},{"start":11827.256,"end":11853.212,"text":"是 民主黨我上一次在司法法治委員會有跟你溝通過其實憲法立憲以來監察權是中華民國獨步全球然後從三權分立變成五權分立現在在七次修憲之後其實也走回所謂的三權分立同樣的監察院當時是被定義為國會"},{"start":11855.533,"end":11873.105,"text":"所以他是民意機關他是民選而且不管是直接選舉或是間接選舉他都是一個所謂的政權機關但經過修憲之後現在是一個治權機關也就是行政機關監督行政機關這個體制不管怎麼樣它就是現實但是"},{"start":11873.965,"end":11902.844,"text":"我看到的是MIRROR在104年跟周陽山教授曾經寫過一篇文章你還記得嗎整個的過程你當時說監察權發展到現在碰到很多制度性跟法制面亟待解決的問題首先就是因為監察委員改成非民選之後拿掉了所謂的言論免責權因為沒有言論免責權所以就不敢公開所有的會議"},{"start":11904.605,"end":11930.44,"text":"現在立法院在討論的叫做法庭直播國會直播已經在立法院實現了所以因為立法委員有相關的權力保障有言論免責權所以國會直播不是問題我們現在連協商都直播了我想問問米處長在你原來的立場裡面認為說取消言論免責權造成監察委員沒有辦法"},{"start":11931.78,"end":11956.596,"text":"暢所欲言所以必須要用密件來處理相關的案件你的意見是什麼你的意見是這個對監察權的行使是有問題的對吧是的這是我跟周老師一起寫的114年那因為我常年在監察院服務那其實我也看也是看過了這整個從一介針耳一直到現在"},{"start":11957.356,"end":11984.865,"text":"所以監察權到現在為止其實還是暗砍在秘密會議裡面我在寫的時候當時呢是有關於彈劾權的審查是還是不記名的所以可以保護相關的言論我現在要講的是我今天要講的是現在大家都要討論法庭要不要直播所有個人隱私啊所有相關的這些問題啊我現在要說的是"},{"start":11986.005,"end":11994.416,"text":"中華民國監察院在彈劾公務人員有違法失職的情況下他有具有100%的公益性你同意嗎"},{"start":11996.055,"end":12015.18,"text":"當然是跟公益有關 沒錯也就是說到底有沒有個人隱私到底有沒有所謂的公益性公益的必要性法庭職位有沒有這些可以討論但是監察委員在彈劾一個不適任或者是違法失職的公務員的時候他具有百分之一百的公益性這個這一點我認為真的該公開的應該是監察院的彈劾過程甚至最後到"},{"start":12021.063,"end":12027.643,"text":"職務法庭去所謂的包括法官檢察官這些相關的程序反而更應該公開"},{"start":12029.313,"end":12053.493,"text":"在你的立場裡面這個應該也是你會同意的吧對就是說有關於在職務法庭或者是懲戒法院的那部分沒錯如果法庭直播大家有爭議的話反而是公務員彈劾的這些相關的程序應該優先直播這是我認為至少它具有百分之百的公義性另外我想問你你去年去"},{"start":12054.707,"end":12081.597,"text":"日本考察你也寫了一份考察報告我們很認真的看完了裡面說101年7月6號到113年9月30監察院在12年間總共彈劾了34個法官34個法官這個過程職務法庭判決免除法官職務的喪失公務員任用資格有一個撤職三個免除法官職務轉任法官以外職務有七個"},{"start":12083.141,"end":12101.713,"text":"這是一個不適任法官 我們國家的結果但是 我要問的秘書長是最近我們看到很多媒體大幅報導惡劣的檢察官製造證據入人於罪這些狀況 請問你們這幾年彈劾了多少個檢察官你不知道 最後不給我 但也有吧有 有的好 12年34個法官很驚人"},{"start":12112.897,"end":12130.58,"text":"現在的問題就是監察委員是不是有自行調查的主動權依照監察法施行細則第二四條是現在有沒有人針對這些媒體大幅報導妨害違反司法偵查不公開還有所謂的製造假證據有沒有監察委員自行調查"},{"start":12131.889,"end":12150.919,"text":"有關於偵查不公開的這個issue其實監察委員 有沒有監察委員自請調查過 現在就是有關於偵查不公開 其實有多數的調查案我記得的話應該是有九個我說最近的報導有沒有人申請自請調查目前沒有這些要人檢舉你們才受理是嗎"},{"start":12153.251,"end":12180.607,"text":"監察院有主動調查權監察院如果剛講的他以前是國會所以他有言論免責權然後他應該受到程序保障但是現在有這麼多媒體大幅報導的以前監察委員都會拿過來自己寫一個我要調查到今天為止這麼多報導司法官相關的所謂的他的行為不適當或違法的情況監察委員現在都不動了是嗎"},{"start":12182.452,"end":12197.321,"text":"就跟委員說明一下就是說在自動調查之前其實監察院依照人民稅務處理方法我要說的是秘書長如果監察院要繼續保持糾正糾舉彈劾都是監察委員的主要的權限我建議"},{"start":12199.179,"end":12219.904,"text":"監察委員們現在就應該針對這個社會上發生的重大事件發現公務員有可能違法失職不要再發生謝怡蓉不要再發生陳忠彥這種事情好嗎如果看到這些人已經被指控媒體大幅的報導哪個惡檢那你至少要查一下還他清白也好啊"},{"start":12220.644,"end":12236.955,"text":"現在是不動啊監察院是完全不動啊委員我剛剛就是要說明並不是不動我們會依照人民訴訟處理辦法先去發函了解去蒐集資料因為在調查之前是要先蒐集資料蒐集資料可以啊但是我的意思是說剛剛講"},{"start":12238.856,"end":12267.025,"text":"監察院彈劾了34個法官值得肯定但是現在聽到這麼多我們希望如果真的要恢復監察院的公信力可能監察院要更主動一些尤其是剛剛講如果法庭要直播真正的職務法庭跟監察院彈劾的會議才真正應該開放好嗎謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊委員好 謝謝戴祖密 謝謝好 接下來徐欣盈委員"},{"start":12278.612,"end":12282.356,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請監察院的王秘書長有請 謝謝"},{"start":12287.128,"end":12310.048,"text":"委員好秘書長好我們監察院其實也是民眾非常高度期待的機關因為監察院是我國憲法賦予最高的監察機關所以它理應是政府失能官員失職的時候人民最可以依賴的著目鳥"},{"start":12311.189,"end":12338.912,"text":"但是很可惜我們看到的是近幾年來這隻著墓鳥它著墓的這個監會似乎失去了也失去了勇氣更失去了監察院應有的獨立性跟效率這是民眾普遍的觀感所以現在的監察院讓民眾感覺不再是勇於皆必的制度守護人"},{"start":12339.873,"end":12367.192,"text":"而且呢更像是關在金籠子裡的一隻寵物鳥捉木鳥不應該是寵物鳥所以我不知道秘書長你們面對社會的期待跟很多的批評聲浪監察院內部有沒有檢討我們是不是應該要成為人民值得信賴的監察機關你等一下再回覆所以"},{"start":12368.883,"end":12393.872,"text":"監察權呢我們都認為不能只是做做樣子寫寫故事交交報告更不會是行政機關韓文的這個猶猜所以人民要的是真正的制衡的權利確保改革落地的憲政機關所以我們看到本席掌握了一些資料就是我們監察院從108年以來啊監察院結"},{"start":12399.312,"end":12428.679,"text":"半截的重大案件明顯下滑然後呢整體案件量持續的減少那我們覺得這不是個案這個是結構性的退縮和怠惰所以調查報告感覺充其量只是個記錄者但監察院的職責應該是糾舉者如果糾舉失職官員都做不到那我們監察機關的存在意義是什麼"},{"start":12430.43,"end":12444.559,"text":"為什麼我們看到很多社會上民怨的事件 重大官員的為師案件都是媒體或立法院揭露在先 監察院始終慢半拍 而且不了了之"},{"start":12445.459,"end":12469.011,"text":"所以面對這樣的一個失職案件彈劾率極低調查時間又冗長社會觀感極差的情況下部分的監察委員反倒積極的參與國際出訪做這個形象工程跟在國內的調查績效形成了非常大的一個反差所以"},{"start":12470.29,"end":12482.062,"text":"人民的陳情申冤案不好好做卻花大筆的公帑搞國際拜會這不是監察制度的初衷是公器私用的歪風所以"},{"start":12484.093,"end":12501.625,"text":"我們主張監察院要重新定位它不能是裝飾民主的機構必須真正落實憲政制衡的力量所以請秘書長回應你是否支持建立監察權績效公開的評鑑制度是或否"},{"start":12503.745,"end":12519.63,"text":"請委員讓我說明一下這有關於這個案件的這樣子委員這樣分類其實是我們調查案件注意事項第五點的所謂的一般案件是要求三個月要結案重大案件是六個月特殊重大是一年其實特殊重大是持續的"},{"start":12520.33,"end":12542.185,"text":"持續的增加比第五屆比起來是有四倍以上的增加如果案件真的有增加是增加的那你到底有沒有改善你的案件增加你案件我又不看表面是不是有改善是不是有具體的讓民眾感受到大家的觀感就是這樣子就是我們提出來的調查報告都會對外公開沒關係那你是否支持監察"},{"start":12548.849,"end":12555.175,"text":"是否支持重啟監委評鑑機制呢?接受國會或民間的評分監督是否支持?更為說明監委是依據法律獨立行使職權"},{"start":12569.888,"end":12592.175,"text":"那至於說那這個只是一個評鑑機制那要看是什麼樣的一個組織或者機構或者是評鑑的標準最後最後那其實有些因為它是依據法律獨立行使支持我知道你支持啦那是否願意檢討近年低落的辦案成效提出具體的改進報告跟委員說明我們不認為我們的辦案成效有低落"},{"start":12595.856,"end":12615.968,"text":"而且我們人民陳情案件第六屆到現在為止有七萬七千多件那其實從八十八年一直到五月調查報告是九千多件沒有辦法真正糾舉彈劾而且很多公務人員重大疏失你們都沒有辦法進行整個的"},{"start":12618.716,"end":12641.821,"text":"彈劾案彈劾人數跟五屆比起來也都是增加的我不好提出個案啦我不提出這些社會上重大案件其實民眾都知道 翻翻你去google或者是新聞查一查都知道其實執行情況都不佳啦很多民眾的陳情以及甚至這個社會上的重大案件所以我們希望啦 你如果"},{"start":12642.721,"end":12648.747,"text":"願意檢討近年辦案的成效或者是你可以提出具體的改進報告"},{"start":12650.657,"end":12652.038,"text":"有關於相關學案"},{"start":12674.119,"end":12701.8,"text":"是重大官員的部分我想你知道沒關係您在這邊所提的我想跟社會的觀感都是不一樣沒關係你如果有的話你把這個報告給我我們也會再回應你們好不好因為今天我們的時間有限我也不好占用後面委員的時間好謝謝新委員那接著請王洪威委員質詢"},{"start":12708.885,"end":12717.789,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請行政院副主計長還有監察院的代理秘書長來 副主計長跟王代理秘書長我想今天因為我們主要是審查就是我們監察院因為辦理這個國際研討會來動用第二預備金那雖然在立法院我們現在有這個要廢監察院的一個修憲的計畫"},{"start":12736.696,"end":12764.659,"text":"但是呢終究就是如果在台灣特別是在台北市能辦這個國際研討會基本上我們還是願意支持的因為750萬這個金額也不是非常多那我們當然希望說能夠把它辦得能夠順利成功啦那我想請問一下副主記長我們今年的第二預備金是多少錢80億80億比去年其實增加6億元之多嘛對"},{"start":12765.58,"end":12786.375,"text":"那我想請問一下就是像我們今天是審查這個動用二倍金我認為他的這個名義是合理的而且我們也願意支持那我想請問一下馬上在7月26號辦理的這個大罷免那麼是不是中選會已經有向行政院來申請二倍金動用二倍金"},{"start":12788.858,"end":12814.165,"text":"目前我還沒看到但是我們條底有這個需求來時間暫停一下請同仁來時間暫停就我所知道我們有預框這個需求沒有這個預算就是中選會有反映有這個需求但是它正式的我們還沒看到還沒有正式來跟申請嗎因為7月26不到一個月了"},{"start":12815.529,"end":12838.347,"text":"那這個勢必動用第二預備金啦因為我們知道他是根本完全沒有編列相關預算那我們都認為因為本來大概是12億元之多那因為原來他要罷免40位的立法委員嘛那現在可能把他縮減成大概25位啦還包含一位縣市首長"},{"start":12840.729,"end":12852.38,"text":"但是我們覺得像這樣子來動用二倍金就極為不合理因為剛才也講為什麼在今年度今年度我們把二倍金一毛都沒有刪因為你們從74億把它提高到80億"},{"start":12859.246,"end":12863.29,"text":"在前一陣子為了要幫大罷免增溫一直說藍白亂刪預算可是呢我們是當用則用當刪則刪在二倍金的部分為什麼願意即便是增加6億元我們是也有感於在尤其現在極端性的氣候"},{"start":12880.905,"end":12897.007,"text":"那麼很可能會有一些災害或者有一些緊急性的政務支出所以呢把它編列到80億元但是呢今天增加二倍金不是讓你來做大罷免的嗎"},{"start":12897.908,"end":12922.456,"text":"對不對你這大罷免花國家起碼我像這次我剛說12億他可能少一點因為罷免的委員不如之前想要罷的這麼多但是呢也將近10億元那看起來他一定要用二倍金所以他現在只是來跟你們講說他們要動用二倍金只是呢他沒有確切的金額而已所以我在這邊要特別說啦"},{"start":12924.437,"end":12944.236,"text":"就是我們今天所有的這個預算特別是這個二倍金的部分當然我們有災害準備金我們也有二倍金二倍金的提高是為了讓我們行政院有一些緊急性的政務支出或者是這些災損"},{"start":12946.217,"end":12973.86,"text":"能夠或者是我們今天要辦理這些國際的研討會讓你們來做這些事情而不是讓你們來浪費納稅人的錢來搞大罷免來搞政治鬥爭我想這一點一定要核心序明因為當時我們也是在整個二倍金的預算的時候那大家也都是支持的好 那另外想請教一下那個代理秘書長"},{"start":12974.921,"end":12997.086,"text":"因為之前啊這個監察院有所謂的用公務車的爭議那你們現在說要移送這個紀律委員會請問一下紀律委員會召開了嗎預定是七月份召開七月份因為現在還沒有到七月七月一號呢還是七月三十一號呢七月上旬"},{"start":12998.166,"end":13026.745,"text":"那為什麼要等到這麼久跟委員說明就是在地理委員會在開會之前那它其實是一開始是個人民書狀有兩位人民來監察院提告類似陳情一個就是黃國昌委員辦公室這邊然後一位是沒有沒有我沒有因為我知道已經有人去有人去告發那你們也說本來不做嘛本來說我們沒有辦法自己調查自己大家覺得很奇怪"},{"start":13027.065,"end":13052.852,"text":"沒有沒有所以你們怎麼胡作非為都沒有辦法調查自己但是現在說既然要啟動調查但是為什麼要這麼久呢因為事實上這個事件發生在五月底然後你們要事隔一個多月才來開這種紀律委員會我必須要講啦因為這件事情已經在社會觀感上是很差的"},{"start":13053.892,"end":13080.17,"text":"然後你們過了這麼久的時間雖然呢 這個秘書長 李靜怡秘書長她辭職下台但是其他被指控的委員都還在任上那你們也應該趕快自清啦我真的還是希望說因為你們現在告訴我們七月七月召開什麼時候 因為七月還沒有到啊是不是你們應該盡快的把紀律委員會召開到底你們對外的說明是什麼"},{"start":13082.332,"end":13089.007,"text":"趕快能夠對外有一個說法對外面一個交代能夠盡早可以嗎是好"},{"start":13090.083,"end":13117.436,"text":"可以齁 那可以提前吧不要再等到說你們還要派黃照紀律嗎因為紀律委員會設置辦法要三分之二委員的出席才可以開會那因為雖然我們沒有預算可是監委的相關的職權不管是調查 巡查他們都還是進行中所以要等到要湊到所有三分之二委員以上五位要能夠共同的時間所以我們已經排定了七月上巡"},{"start":13117.796,"end":13122.461,"text":"我覺得這是社會觀感的問題應該盡快我們一聽到到現在都沒有開會覺得怎麼會這麼扯這樣子至少也是危機處理好嗎好謝謝洪薇接著我們請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在接著我們請林青旗委員質詢"},{"start":13149.222,"end":13166.957,"text":"主席 福建同仁 大家好我這邊是不是請行政院主席總署的副主席長 陳副主席長還有王代理秘書長好 副主席長 王代理秘書長人權委員會的執密 周執密周執行秘書周執行秘書 謝謝"},{"start":13175.966,"end":13198.878,"text":"大家好今天我們在這邊是針對監察院在2025年我們要舉辦第37屆的澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會即人權國際研討會的這個案子因為你們是動用二倍經我想藉這個機會來探討一下然後也做一些建議"},{"start":13200.719,"end":13218.391,"text":"因為這次我們辦的這個主題裡面很清楚的就談到澳紐所以本席想在這邊跟你們探討一下這個核心的議題在澳紐跟太平洋諸國的人權和歷史正義我們希望能夠透過這個機會也讓原住民的這個區塊被了解"},{"start":13222.333,"end":13238.5,"text":"那但是我已經我看到你們今天送的資料那個議程大概有一些排定經費也有一些分配了那所以我想我下面做的建議是不是看看你們在可以的空間裡面是不是有機會在這一次就做一些調整"},{"start":13240.211,"end":13262.137,"text":"所以我先講一下這個澳紐的經驗澳洲在2023年原住民族之聲要路線的全國公投雖然沒有通過但是這個過程當中展現的制度成熟跟全民對於原住民參與憲政體制的高度熱烈討論其實是有很大的一個價值所以"},{"start":13262.957,"end":13277.461,"text":"建立獨立的原住民族諮詢機構然後保障對國會法案提出意見的制度設計那也因此我們看到這個人權治理的走向也越來越先進那第二個部分是紐西蘭紐西蘭在這個淮唐一條約"},{"start":13283.843,"end":13304.551,"text":"他設置了一個 將這樣一個國家治理的核心放進了常設審裁的一個功能也就是在將維他命這樣一個條約的概念裡面做一個法制性的一個處理那來推行歷史的不育跟調查還有補償那這些制度就具有一些法律效力所以紐西蘭的情況是這樣"},{"start":13305.751,"end":13322.441,"text":"所以在政府部門跟原住民長期對話當中呢那也透過這個平台就更為穩定也比較永續那這個部分可以提供我們在制度深化跟權力保障上的一個參考那你們今年呢是監察院是主辦"},{"start":13323.542,"end":13353.122,"text":"主辦國那我們議程設計應該第一我們看名字那個紐澳是很重要的這個帶領者那我們議程當然要針對各地區國家的這個制度優勢跟政策實踐那我這邊是希望能夠將原住民族人權還有在歷史正義族群平等這些主題也能夠納入一個討論的主軸就比較不會變成一個像形式會議流程感覺有點像大拜拜這樣子"},{"start":13354.242,"end":13368.707,"text":"所以我希望藉這個機會能夠有機會邀請我剛才其實前面講的澳洲那聯邦原民事務相關的這個官員那另外紐西蘭因為這個Watani的Tribunal有入法"},{"start":13369.247,"end":13393.73,"text":"所以他的現任或卸任的委員如果有機會來的話成員有機會來的話那這樣子其實在具有國際聲望的這一些人來跟我們做一些討論甚至太平洋原民治理食物的人能夠一起來討論原住民族人權在當地跟我們國家的一個變化那這樣我們就可以就不同的結構不同的觀點來"},{"start":13395.771,"end":13421.963,"text":"討論出更多的更寬廣的一個對話所以這些對象我是從你們的這個已經規劃的會議主題裡面看起來可能是比較匱乏的所以我就很直接的希望而且今年我們是主辦國是比較能夠主導這個議程跟內容還有成員所以我還是希望說有這個機會的話不知道這個部分有沒有可能就我剛才講的這幾個面向"},{"start":13424.647,"end":13448.937,"text":"謝謝委員的提議我們的議程雖然是目前是佔框定是這樣子可是剛剛委員提到的澳洲跟紐西蘭它的特殊性其實是有關於原住民族的人權跟他的Tribunal的那部分那因為我們要邀請澳洲或者紐西蘭的外賓或者是講者來"},{"start":13450.577,"end":13478.892,"text":"來台灣來參與這樣子的國際會議其實我們的經費是不是非常的應該你們會覺得很窘迫有的東西就看你怎麼辦然後怎麼去溝通跟聯繫所以是不是在可以的狀況下你們是不是還是可以朝這樣一個方向來走那因為你看你們標題這個紐澳是這麼重要的國家而且你說太平洋相關的其實很多南島語族的島語我相信你們可能也有邀到相關"},{"start":13479.932,"end":13494.032,"text":"一些重要的這個成員那這個部分如果時間還可以是不是可以透過這個機會也讓大家知道說我們在人權的這個努力上事實上可能國際社會也有沒有看到的這個部分所以是不是"},{"start":13495.194,"end":13521.348,"text":"新日本在做一些努力April是會員大會所以原則上太平洋的島國有六個可是就是我們目前也是只有三個國家願意來出席我們還在努力中然後那至於議題的部分因為這個這次的主軸還是監察就是監察室所以委員所提示的那部分呢我們會努力研究然後"},{"start":13522.088,"end":13544.939,"text":"就請妳放進這個考量當中我不知道你們那三個session是打算用什麼樣子的方式那當然專題演講就比較沒有空間但是session如果有分的話或許還有機會來做一些置放謝謝委員的建議所以在內容上我想主席處應該這邊也是支持的嘛那在內容上像我國在這幾年原住民族基本法的立法歷程"},{"start":13545.939,"end":13562.795,"text":"還有政策架構跟實際的實施困境那甚至在監察院有一些資料我們也是會參考的那我們很希望這個部分能夠被國際所周知所以這是今天本席提出來很重要的一個要點那可以的情況真的請你們多加考量好嗎"},{"start":13563.696,"end":13587.393,"text":"現在人權委員會我們也希望在原住民的這塊的比例或許可以再努力跟精進一些 好嗎好 謝謝林委員羅明財 羅明財 羅明財委員不在林思明 林思明 林思明委員不在那今日登記花園委員均已詢答完畢現在進行討論事項"},{"start":13590.083,"end":13616.983,"text":"那即處理那請醫事人員宣讀審查審查行政院涵為監察院一百一十四年度辦理二零二五年第三十七屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會及人權國際研討會所需經費不敷請同意動之一百一十四年度中央政府總預算第二預備金七百五十萬元支應案宣讀完畢"},{"start":13622.446,"end":13642.414,"text":"好 請問在場的委員同不同意監察院動資2025年第37屆奧紐及太平洋地區監察院監察室年會暨人權國際研討會所需要的經費不敷術的第二億倍金750萬元"},{"start":13645.332,"end":13656.678,"text":"主席好來陳一貞委員這個很好是在我們國內舉辦嘛對不對對嘛齁那我們這個人權委員會的主任委員到時候要出席參加齁好當然記錄下來就好了OK你等一下你說怎樣"},{"start":13665.802,"end":13685.519,"text":"是 來很重要的會議 稍微我確認一下陳玉珍委員的意思就是說我也請監察院這邊回答一下因為 等一下 陳佩儀委員那個請那個代理秘書長這個我們做決議哪裡需要她回答我剛剛已經問過了直接坐在位子上就好了"},{"start":13688.005,"end":13709.273,"text":"這個錢好好用喔本院是主辦的單位是主辦國主席是APO區域的理事長主席是區域理事長APO的區域理事長不是監察人我們沒有人要參加嗎我們誰要參加"},{"start":13711.454,"end":13716.602,"text":"我們監察院沒有派員參加在我們這裡辦應該有吧有的我們是主辦單位主席是April的理事長沒問題 但是我們也會派員參加吧我們會我要派誰呢我們的人權委員會有主任委員吧"},{"start":13728.564,"end":13741.615,"text":"我再問 我再問是 我們副院長為什麼 她是主任委員嗎這是監察 這是監察室不是 這個是人權國際研討會監察室會你要全民唸給陳一貞委員監察室聯會 即人權國際研討會啊不是人權嗎陳一貞委員要不要讓他們好好講一下到底這個會議在監察院目前的分工是由誰負責來 謝謝"},{"start":13756.495,"end":13778.721,"text":"目前這個會議是監察院負責的不是監察院的國家人權委員會那他會議的主題呢這次的主題是APRIL的最主要是APRIL的年會他是會員國的年會這是最重要的一個主題另外隔天是有個研討會那只是這次的研討會我們把它定性成跟人權有關係"},{"start":13780.481,"end":13785.025,"text":"主辦還不是國家人權委員會所以這次的會議除了監察使聯會你是主題選舉還有人權國際因為剛剛我們很多民進黨委員在跟委員說明還有包括審計所以就是監察審計人權我們希望是比較"},{"start":13799.258,"end":13818.599,"text":"我會特別提這個是因為剛剛我們很多民進黨的執政黨委員都在說因為這是馬英九時代啊什麼人權委員會啊什麼我看到吳思耀委員王思堅委員不是不是還有在講嗎這個很重要我支持我沒有反對馬東東時代這也是一樣也是年會"},{"start":13819.96,"end":13848.304,"text":"是會有一個研討會你不用擔心我們支持這個會議也願意給你們這個預算你不用擔心我先把它講完不是反對我們已經討論過是支持但是這個人權委員會主任委員要參加是嗎我們副院長會參加副院長是主任委員嗎我們副院長不是主任委員因為我再次說明這是監察你們主任委員為什麼不參加你們副院委員這是監察院所主任的你告訴我為什麼主任委員不能參加你告訴我為什麼你回答就可以了"},{"start":13854.835,"end":13864.923,"text":"我們請王代理秘書長你等所有委員都發言完畢以後你一併回答這樣好不好那我們先請陳一貞委員發言我叫錯了是陳佩妤"},{"start":13873.274,"end":13894.617,"text":"因為剛好我們在這九屆第十屆我們參與過監察院組織法的修法其實過去在第九屆的立法院的時候那時候總統府要推動將原來任務編讀在總統府下的人權委員會希望能夠有一個法制化的過程"},{"start":13895.137,"end":13908.833,"text":"所以那時候我們推動監察院的組織法就將訂了一個人權委員的專章將這個人權委員會歸屬於監察院底下的一個重要的機構那事實上這個人權委員會在很多國家它是獨立機關"},{"start":13910.094,"end":13924.735,"text":"那也完全沒有附屬在任何行政機關之下那由於台灣的憲政體制比較獨特我們有五個權 五權憲法所以監察權呢 那時候呢被認定它不會是屬於行政權或司法權的一部分"},{"start":13925.376,"end":13947.089,"text":"所以那時候在討論之後將國家人權委員會就放在跟監察院一樣那也考量到我國的監察院的屬性跟其他世界各國的監察室相接近因此就有這樣的設計不過事實上在監察院裡面人權委員會的一個組織架構它非常的特別它首先是由總統"},{"start":13948.61,"end":13965.485,"text":"在提名監察院院長的同時就指派了監察院的院長成為人權委員會的主任委員然後再由這個主任委員也就是監察院院長他自己去任命"},{"start":13966.921,"end":13995.74,"text":"監察委員當中的八名擔任我們人權委員的常任委員那因為人權委員應該是七名啦因為監察人權委員有十名那另外有兩名呢是屬於變動的委員那這兩名呢就是另外一樣用這樣的程序來產生主要強調的是監察院政府院長及監察委員二十九人當中其中主任委員是由總統在提名"},{"start":13997.001,"end":14016.478,"text":"監察院長的時候就同時指派那當然總統在提名監察院的委員跟政府院長的時候是要經過立法院的同意權的但是人權委員會的委員就不是那在目前情況十位人權委員當中有兩位委員是由不是這八名當時指派的委員當中"},{"start":14018.56,"end":14033,"text":"有浮動式的但是他們的副主任委員是由大家來推選的我再強調一次目前監察院的人權委員會的副主任委員是由委員互推的"},{"start":14033.641,"end":14052.691,"text":"那這種情況之下主任委員既然是總統在提名院長的時候同時指派所以呢主任委員跟監察院長他同時具有代表我們國家監察院的象徵也代表我們國家將人權委員會的一個相當崇高的位置但是實質上呢在平常的人權委員的運作上"},{"start":14053.371,"end":14071.164,"text":"副主任委員他是由委員們互選出來互推出來的他反而是實際上在參與人權委員會運作的委員那目前可能我們在今天通過預算的同時委員關心的是未來代表我們國家人權委員會"},{"start":14072.665,"end":14085.035,"text":"去出席這個年會的 是哪一個是不是熟悉人權業務的重要的一個首長我想這我們關切 既然我們是主辦國那我們能夠"},{"start":14086.38,"end":14100.404,"text":"邀請其他國家來那當然我們要跟他交流那交流的一個很大的項目就是國家人權的業務那我想因為委員們大家對於國家人權委員會和建造院的關係可能呢因為修法的時候有點複雜那我們也希望說未來呢"},{"start":14103.445,"end":14125.67,"text":"未來我想也很歡迎藍白支持我們廢考監修憲的方式廢考監而這當中的人權委員會不管未來的考監的機制怎麼設計這個國家人權委員會一定要好好的來維護那今天這個年會既然是跟人權相關的議題我們也希望監察院國家人權委員會要有非常恰當的人員來參與以上"},{"start":14128.294,"end":14148.585,"text":"好 謝謝嘉賓 那陳培怡委員好 所以我想要確認一下如果我們看這個你們交出來的口頭報告的書面資料裡面所提到的是這個是監察院來辦理2025年第37屆APOL這個年會 對吧所以監察院主辦所以你剛剛說是由副院長代表出席"},{"start":14149.465,"end":14168.604,"text":"對所以我認為這個在法理上應該是合於法規範但是我也想要請教陳玉珍委員你剛剛口口聲聲說你支持並且你會願意通過這個預算但你又加了一個但書就是說你要指名那我不知道你的指名的意思是你認為只有"},{"start":14170.225,"end":14191.126,"text":"人權委員會的主任委員才可以代表監察院去參加這個所謂的APPLE年會還是你認為其他委員都不適格去參加這個委員會還有如果你要加上這個但書但如果他們有實際上的困難那是不是其實你還是在擋這個預算你還是沒有想要支持這個預算"},{"start":14192.725,"end":14193.926,"text":"我講更清楚一點好不好我會講到"},{"start":14216.687,"end":14226.633,"text":"主席 報告主席現在台灣的人權委員會的主委就是我們的監察院院長也就是陳菊院長這是剛剛陳玉珍委員親口說的"},{"start":14228.655,"end":14255.766,"text":"我會講說是人權委員會主委是因為上面有講到說要人權的國際研討會啦但是我也可以接受我跟你講我可以接受因為這是我們是主辦國啦然後是在我們這邊辦嘛而且是監察使聯會嘛所以我也不一定要人權委員會主委這也可以接受因為剛有人權委員會嘛那我們監察院就請我們院長參加這個代表我們主辦國非常的非常重視這個活動啊那你要告訴我不能參加的理由是什麼啊你可以告訴我為什麼我們不重視嗎"},{"start":14257.686,"end":14267.51,"text":"為什麼副院長不重視監察院 而且監察院院長是總統派的總統派的當然是最重要的因為陳昇委員要要求總統提名你覺得院長比較重要還是副院長比較重要"},{"start":14274.5,"end":14295.845,"text":"你告訴我原因為什麼會 會員長代理 我跟你講 講白一點大家都知道因為我們院長現在就是身體不舒服嘛 我也都知道嘛 對不對所以他沒有辦法參加嘛個人隱私個人隱私 但現在是公務啊 個人隱私我尊重我希望他早日康復你怎麼知道他明天不會好 說明明天就好你怎麼可以有這種 請問那個什麼會辦那個生病沒有那麼好 9月份啊 9月份那如果因為個人隱私隱私 影響到整個國家的政府發展這樣對嗎"},{"start":14299.981,"end":14322.736,"text":"那我們以後不要派院長啊不要提名院長 要評副院長就好啦 如果照理說的話就這樣子好 那所以如果沒有包括主席所以陳玉珍委員的意思就是說如果他要的人權委員會的主委或者是我們監察院院長沒有辦法出席他就不支持這個預算嗎我支持喔 我支持 但是就是院長為什麼不能出席 他應該可以出席啊他怎麼可能不可以出席院長不能出席是院長的事情"},{"start":14323.896,"end":14340.388,"text":"我們這個制度不用我同意但是這個是代表我們是主辦國對這個會議的重視嘛人權委員 主任委員 要求都非常合理啊那他有沒有生病我也不希望他這樣我希望他身體好好的很快就好 我也相信會這樣子"},{"start":14341.789,"end":14355.436,"text":"我不是適合指 我一直都說我一直都說這是很好啊支持啊 支持啊 但輸就是這樣啊議長委員 議長委員 來院長 院長主持 然後或者人權委會就可以人權委會 主任委也可以啊"},{"start":14357.795,"end":14380.973,"text":"你們可以決議嘛韓國瑜出國參加小孩畢業典禮他就可以讓副院長代理主持院會那請問 請問為什麼我們的副院長不能代理主持會議所以韓國瑜不能出國 但陳菊可以原本副院長來進台任職上班有人說韓國瑜的副院長沒有來我現在請陳可以站在那邊台上我沒有規定啊按照法律 沒有沒有"},{"start":14672.97,"end":14677.451,"text":"各位同仁我們繼續開會現在審查完畢同意動之提報宴會繼續本次會議做成如下的決定"},{"start":14690.765,"end":14705.109,"text":"因為剛剛不是休息時間的時候陳玉珍委員的發言都會列入公報跟議事錄我不知道那個但書的成立效力對於監察院最後會造成什麼影響沒有沒有 裴議委員 剛才是休息期間不是不是 不是以前他就說他的但書不是 不行"},{"start":14711.738,"end":14730.919,"text":"報告主席那你裁決嘛因為如果一旦那個列入記錄是不是他們日後就會按照國民黨過去的手法他就會拿這個來要求監察院要製造更多的危難陳一貞委員他沒有就是陳一貞委員拜託我裁決一下啦我們不列入但書啦好不好好謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":14733.562,"end":14750.424,"text":"那本次會議作成如下的決議一說明跟詢答完畢二委員質詢為及時答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另外有要求期限者走期鎖定"},{"start":14751.425,"end":14770.118,"text":"委員林思敏 羅明采所提的書面質詢委員王宏威 林青旗所提的書面補充資料經列入紀錄刊登公報並且相關部會以書面答覆那針對行政院含這個請"},{"start":14778.051,"end":14798.711,"text":"針對行政院含為監察院一百一十四年度辦理二零二五年度第37屆奧紐及太平洋地區監察史年會兼人權國際研討會所需要的經費不敷請同意動資一百一十四年度中央政府總預算第二億倍金七百五十萬元"},{"start":14801.609,"end":14823.062,"text":"應付應案資應案那個審查完略同意動之報題宴會請問各位委員針對以上的決議有沒有異議好那就通過另對本次會議議事錄授權有本席核定後確定請問各位委員有沒有異議"},{"start":14825.004,"end":14837.62,"text":"好 沒有異議 那通過本次會議議程已進行完畢 倘若有不在場的委員提補題書面執行一併列入紀錄 刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理 散會"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}