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那個非常感謝各位黨團的代表因為上次院會的時候處理台灣民眾黨黨團提案成立修憲委員會"},{"start":1906.124,"end":1925.729,"text":"那院會進覆二讀了以後那是交由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商那我們在今天就召集協商那我先介紹一下各位出席的委員那首先是民主進步黨黨團的陳培宇陳委員"},{"start":1928.67,"end":1935.075,"text":"中國國民黨黨團的王玉敏王委員以及台灣民眾黨黨團的張祺凱張委員陳昭芝陳委員我們現在就開始進行協商"},{"start":1943.724,"end":1956.521,"text":"今天要針對有關修憲委員會組成協商的重點是整個依照立法院組織法第九條以及立法院修憲委員會組織規程第三條的規定"},{"start":1959.659,"end":1983.729,"text":"本會的委員為立法委員總額三分之一加一人由各黨團依其院會席次比例分配並保障少數參與原則組成制其實在上一屆的國會當中也曾成立過修憲委員會那就依照各黨團數額的代表來加以組成"},{"start":1985.732,"end":2009.829,"text":"那如果我們依照議事人員當然我不是先決定啦我先跟各位黨團的代表報告依照議事人員跟我所提供的書面資料就是113位委員各黨團依照院會席次比例分配那大概依照比例算出來我們39個人是國民黨團19個人民進黨團17個人台灣民眾黨黨團3個人"},{"start":2014.705,"end":2028.239,"text":"那我先把那個議事人員相關的法規跟他們按照人數的比例的說明先跟各位黨團的代表來報告一下那不曉得哪一位黨團要先發言好那是看有誰要先發言"},{"start":2036.718,"end":2046.316,"text":"因為這個其實是完全程序性的事項啦就是修憲委員會那各黨團的代表要幾個人來加以組成我們先請王毅民王委員"},{"start":2047.076,"end":2050.479,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌主席還有我們在座的委員我想修憲這件事情國民黨是支持成立修憲委員會我們可以看到過去事實上民進黨現在是執政黨它過去對於修憲的議題其實也是非常的熱衷在2013年的時候當時高雄市長陳其邁"},{"start":2075.12,"end":2102.841,"text":"他其实就有修宪的提案2014年蔡英文主席其实也有提出要终结监察院的主张2014年9月立委陈廷飞也有修宪提案2015年3月30号蔡英文主席主张废除监察院2016年蔡英文在竞选总统的时候废除监察院落实单一国会是他的重要政见了"},{"start":2103.834,"end":2129.243,"text":"2017年立委陳亭飛修憲提案2020年立委陳亭飛修憲提案2020蔡英文總統表示要推動憲政改革廢除監察院2021年民進黨憲改小組主張廢除監察院2024年連監察院長陳菊本人都表示支持廢除監察院他希望他是最後一任的監察院院長"},{"start":2130.763,"end":2153.764,"text":"所以到2025年6月13號民進黨黨團的幹事長吳思瑤他也說廢除監察院是民進黨長期的理念跟主張那所以代表民進黨黨團應該也是支持的所以現在看起來如果三黨都支持的情況底下我們的確要有修憲的"},{"start":2154.784,"end":2178.829,"text":"齊成跟進度那所以我想今天是很重要邁出一步就是如果我們可以針對什麼時候要開始來做這件事情定出一個具體的日期那按照整個修憲委員會的組織章程剛剛主席也講嘛按照39位委員席次的分配國民黨有19席民進黨17席民眾黨3席那對於這樣席次分配國民黨黨團沒有意見"},{"start":2184.17,"end":2209.249,"text":"那我們希望今天大家可以有共識我們整個修憲廢除監察院的期程我們可以往前邁進一步 以上謝謝好 謝謝那個王委員 那個我那個是不是先冒昧請教一下 不好意思因為有的時候 院會交付我們的議案有一些具體的事情要確定剛剛王委員也代表中國國民黨黨團同意成立修憲委員會"},{"start":2210.49,"end":2238.039,"text":"那就人數上面的分配因為議事人員依照我們相關的法規以及各政黨他的人數比例是中國國民黨黨團19人民進黨黨團17人台灣民眾黨黨團3人那對於這樣子一個議事人員所初步草擬的一個建議不曉得王委員中國國民黨這邊是不是同意是同意了嗎好謝謝那接下來要哪一位好來請那個張啟凱張委員"},{"start":2240.689,"end":2267.486,"text":"希望今天可以為我們的修憲跨出一大步我們盡快組成修憲委員會事實上上一屆就已經有組成過沒有說上一屆行現在不行事實上主席就是國參委員也拜會了韓國瑜韓院長韓院長也說如果大家沒有意見他會盡快來召集我查了一下事實上目前這一屆有七個修憲案民進黨最多民進黨有四個"},{"start":2268.869,"end":2274.593,"text":"台灣民眾黨提了廢監察院廢監察院事實上民進黨的陳廷飛"},{"start":2276.977,"end":2298.838,"text":"等民進黨立委又提出來他要廢考監那國民黨有兩個案子事實上最多的案子目前提出最多的修憲案是民進黨的四個所以希望我們盡快跨出一大步民政會說你提的案子擺在那邊是延宕還是打假球特別是這段時間大家非常注意監察院的"},{"start":2300.984,"end":2328.295,"text":"功能不彰他到目前為止像今年他還編了超過10億的預算後來經過立法院刪減他比較不當跟腐爛的他今年還是用了人民納稅錢超過8億可是裡面絕大部分都是人事的這個費用變成是一個執政黨在養肥貓然後是一個養老院籌擁院那又被民眾認為說你的這個工作量好像自己都在減少不只是"},{"start":2329.403,"end":2348.188,"text":"公務車私用的這個問題到現在沒有一個明確的交代好像閉了蓬頭之後也沒有好好去處理我們去統計他最近開會啊院會院會最近半年開的院會在10分鐘以下就結束了竟然超過了將近一半"},{"start":2349.312,"end":2367.298,"text":"他工作量大幅的這個減少然後呢是立委監委的這個自動調查量也是在減少彈劾案也是在減少智慧武功的這個同時可是還是浪費人民那麼多納稅錢還是功能不彰而且變成是一個酬庸的這個地方更嚴重的我們這段時間發現了監察院好像變成閉案不查變成在掩附閉案像超思案像陳忠彥案連彈劾都談言不過他不只是沒有好好發揮"},{"start":2378.325,"end":2392.023,"text":"直施風紀 糾正跟彈劾這個功能是不是變成是一個弊案的一個掩護了是不是變成是一個打手了所以現在民間的這個每次的民調要求要廢掉監察院的聲浪非常非常高我剛才特別提到了民進黨"},{"start":2393.525,"end":2399.01,"text":"陳廷輝等委員也有提出這個案子那市長民進黨從1999年開始就已經提了這個肺這個檢驗我們很期待今天能夠經過大家的討論我們共同盡快組成這個修憲委員會由韓院長盡快來召集然後把時間也趕快定下來剛剛我們主席也講了我們14整年已經把這個委員會的這個名額也大致上都已經我已經列出來了"},{"start":2418.165,"end":2429.556,"text":"這個只欠東風,很期待今天大家可以共同跨出一步真正讓我們所有的修憲的這個案子包括民眾黨提的、國民黨提的、民進黨提的這個修憲的版本趕快來討論,不要讓人家覺得是在嚴當跟打架球,謝謝好,謝謝張祺凱委員那從張祺凱委員剛剛代表台灣民眾黨黨團的發言給確認台灣民眾黨黨團也是贊成成立修憲委員會"},{"start":2441.806,"end":2466.27,"text":"那就人數上面的安排是不是也同意依照我們議事人員所草擬的一個建議那國民黨黨團19位民進黨黨團17位台灣民眾黨黨團3位總共39位來加以組成同意嗎贊成嘛OK好那我們接下來請那個中國國民不對民主進步黨黨團的代表請問哪一位要發言"},{"start":2468.834,"end":2487.172,"text":"好 我們現在請鍾嘉賓委員發言謝謝 那今天我們依照立法院職權行使法我們來進行這個黨團協商那協商呢 因為有院會交易要進行修憲委員會 成立修憲委的議題"},{"start":2488.479,"end":2508.439,"text":"那我想要確認一下是不是可以請議事人員我們記得上次好像在這個會場我們在處理的是一個調閱小組調閱委員會那一般來講院會都會有一個交易嘛交易說我們看今天交易下來是說他這裡說是要來"},{"start":2512.239,"end":2536.095,"text":"完成修憲委員會之組成那因為這裡面 它這裡面的案有的第二行說本屆以來相繼有各堂委員提出修憲相關提案那首先當然我們關心的是修憲委員會因為有修憲提案要來成立但是要問的是說那現在相關的提案有哪些"},{"start":2537.315,"end":2540.477,"text":"那麼因為呢 這涉及到什麼呢我們修憲委員會要成立那成立之後 其實我再舉個例子啦事實上在我第十屆的時候我本身呢 也是修憲委員會的委員因為修憲委員會依照我們法定的規定是39席那麼39席委員有委員來擔任那它的運作有要"},{"start":2560.789,"end":2567.094,"text":"有很多很多的案子那請問一下現在的修憲提案有多少案子會是在我們修憲會要來進行扶論的先說明一下"},{"start":2571.567,"end":2593.488,"text":"到目前為止立法院第十一屆修憲的提案總共有七個案子第一個案子是由賴士寶等37位委員拟據中華民國憲法徵修條文第三條文修正草案第二個案子是由賴士寶等34位委員拟據中華民國憲法徵修條文第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":2594.389,"end":2610.84,"text":"第三個案子是由陳廷飛等30位委員擬據中華民國憲法徵修條文部分條文徵修草案包括第三條、第四條、第六條、第七條第四個案子是由林怡瑾等29位委員擬據中華民國憲法徵修條文徵定第一條之一"},{"start":2611.681,"end":2639.14,"text":"第五個案子是由吳佩奕等二十九位委員擬拒中華民國憲法徵修條文徵定第一條之一第六個案子是由吳立華委員等三十六位擬拒中華民國憲法徵修條文第四條修正條文修正草案第七個案子是由我本人擬拒中華民國憲法徵修條文第三條第四條第七條修正條文草案到目前為止本屆的國會總共有七個修憲的提案Pending待修憲委員會來加以處理來繼續"},{"start":2642.54,"end":2664.019,"text":"謝謝主席的說明所以我們就這樣看得出來呢其實這些修憲的提案有七個提案那這當中呢有包括國民黨籍的賴委員在世保委員說要恢復隔奎同意權的這是在去年的四月就提出來了那當然賴世保委員提的當中還有包括國情報告常態化"},{"start":2665.936,"end":2687.738,"text":"那至於本黨籍的陳廷輝委員呢在去年的六月就提出了要廢考監要三權分立那麼民黨籍的林益錦委員呢在去年的六月也提出了18歲公民權那當中呢吳佩奕委員本黨的吳佩奕委員也提出了在去年的十月提出了18歲的公民權提案"},{"start":2688.399,"end":2700.623,"text":"那麼武麗華委員也提出了刪除平原跟三原的分類這是在去年年底提的那麼最近一個就是現在主席所提出來的廢監察院那麼這樣的一個這些修憲提案那我在這裡其實也借用這個我們在討論修憲委員會的過程也將過去上一屆的一個經驗來跟我們其他黨團的成員分享"},{"start":2712.466,"end":2721.031,"text":"因為我看起來在場的其他黨的委員並沒有參加過修憲委員會不好意思 我稍微打斷一下今天我拜託各位黨團的委員"},{"start":2723.649,"end":2750.87,"text":"大家有什麼想說的話開記者會都OK我們盡量針對今天會議的主題來加以討論我們今天院會交付給我們的主題就是要成立修憲委員會那第一個大家同不同意成立那第二個人數怎麼分配我們節省大家的勞力時間費用我想說這樣子會議的進行會比較有效率是不是請各位黨團的委員就盡量針對這一次院會所交付的議題來加以討論謝謝"},{"start":2753.471,"end":2767.826,"text":"謝謝主席因為第三條的規定要完成修憲委員的組成那這組成不是只有說39席怎麼分配而已這還包括說第一次修憲委員會召開的日期還要有後續的審查程序所以其實我們這次的討論這個包括"},{"start":2774.605,"end":2789.719,"text":"主席之前我們在成立所謂的調查委員會的時候也都對於院會交易的內容其實大家要做一些充分的討論那在這裡我們就看一看這裡面大家就想定一個開會日期然後組成39個組成然後要進行後續的審查以避利於社會的審查"},{"start":2799.912,"end":2828.257,"text":"主席不好意思這個大家不要離題這個案由非常的清楚今天我們只處理兩件事一個是委員會的組成就是剛剛主席所講的就是各政黨的比例大家有沒有意見第二個就是第一次召開會議的議程那剛剛這個民進黨委員所提到他是說必立進行修憲案後續的審查程序就是你前面的組成跟第一次召開日期定了之後其他的內容這個我想民進黨若有很多的意見"},{"start":2828.937,"end":2841.867,"text":"下一次第一次正式開會的時候大家再針對內容來交換好不好我想就是要聚焦就是這兩件事情一個就是各政黨比例代表大家同不同意第二個就是決定第一次開會的日期"},{"start":2842.758,"end":2862.276,"text":"好 這個謝謝王毓民委員我再跟大家報告一次今天的任務非常簡單第一個 同不同意成立修憲委員會第二個 議事人員所建議的各政黨的人數大家是不是同意這兩個有共識了以後那我們再決定第一次修憲委員會大概召集的日期至於其他"},{"start":2863.197,"end":2875.773,"text":"目前Pending在本屆國會裡面的七個修憲的案子大家贊不贊成有什麼樣的意見等到開修憲委員會再處理這個不是這一次黨團協商可以處理的射程範圍以上說明"},{"start":2877.707,"end":2901.797,"text":"謝謝主席,我這一個發言,兩次主席還有我們現在委員要做一個補充,我也都接受啦那麼其實呢,大家在談這個,我也沒有要談七個修憲提案的內容我沒有要談內容的主張喔我只要提醒說,當我們進行後續審查程序的時候呢,就在上次我們的調閱委員會當中也是類似的情況,我提醒大家一下就是說上次的調閱委員會呢,我們在處理到秘密會議"},{"start":2903.898,"end":2907.841,"text":"跟秘密會議如何召開秘密會議如何進行這也是屬於程序的問題我不是說我們修憲委員會要開秘密會議沒有我只是用同樣的例子來說當一個特別委員會修憲委員會是特種委員會特種委員的運作他的規則程序"},{"start":2922.291,"end":2929.377,"text":"那麼要如何按照我們本院相關的議事規則 議事程序這個就是我們現在在處理的問題我們現在在處理程序嘛 處理日期嘛 處理組成嘛 處理比例嘛那麼這個組織規程當中呢 因為我們希望說能夠就比較完整的來討論說"},{"start":2942.276,"end":2965.259,"text":"後續的這個委員會如何運作我們可以把一些注意事項先做一個意見交換那這樣的話我們在後續進行組成之後的運作或許各政黨會比較有一個默契因為畢竟後續的運作不會像今天這樣有一個政黨協商的過程不好意思我主席再插一下話修憲委員會"},{"start":2966.3,"end":2994.481,"text":"要怎麼運作修憲委員會召開第一次會議以後再討論不在整本次黨團協商的設成範圍本次黨團協商大概要處理的院會交付的事項組成修憲委員會各黨團人數的比例以及第一次開會的時間如此而已那請問民主進步黨黨團對於院會所交付的這些事項是否贊成組成修憲委員會人數要怎麼分配第一次的日期有沒有什麼寶貴的意見"},{"start":2997.666,"end":3012.436,"text":"我還是因為三次被打斷,我就要問的,那麼因為這個決定召開的日期,我們可以做一個了解,後續的修憲提案,那麼涉及到我們修憲委員會,我們後續組成之後,我們行使運作的期程,"},{"start":3015.638,"end":3040.554,"text":"那這個部分呢我會覺得啦雖然呢這不是實質的問題這不是實質內容問題不是這個七個提案問題會不會有第八個提案第九個提案那我們也是希望說藉由這次的朝野協商黨人協商呢大家可以對所謂的召開的日期這裡是決議嘛第一次召開的日期必定進行修憲案的後續審查那如果我們訂的這個日期太晚"},{"start":3041.534,"end":3058.818,"text":"訂的太晚恐怕對於後續的修憲提案的討論恐怕不好那如果訂的很早那會不會有其他的修憲提案想要進行到我們委員會來所以在這裡我們的本題所謂的第一次修憲委員會召開的日期"},{"start":3059.645,"end":3088.076,"text":"涉及到現在我們是在研會期間那我們定的日期在前在後對於後續的修憲委員會的運作其他的提案現有的提案的討論時間跟其他後續要提出來討論提案的時間有沒有什麼影響也是可以討論我剛剛被打斷了三次我這講完了就是說我們定的這個日期要考量到我們有現有的提案要討論的需求以及後續提案他所需要的時間以上好"},{"start":3089.341,"end":3096.044,"text":"不好意思喔 那個 我先回答問題啦第一個 後續會不會有其他的提到不好意思喔 現在主席在主持會議沒有關係 剛剛你全部都已經發言完了嘛 對吧"},{"start":3105.785,"end":3135.005,"text":"我在發言的時候被你打斷了三次所以我沒有要你回答我只是要請教其他黨團成員的意見第一個後續會不會有其他委員的提案我不知道我無法預期本院所有的委員想要提修憲案都可以依照規定連署來提案那連署成案了以後院會交付給修憲委員會一併處理就一併處理我們今天提案要處理的問題是第一個"},{"start":3136.525,"end":3158.259,"text":"站不站成成立修憲委員會第二個人數的分配是不是我們就同意依照國民黨黨團19位民進黨黨團17位台灣民眾黨黨團3位總共39位這個是依照我們目前既有的席次所為的分配那第三個第一次修憲委員會召開的日期"},{"start":3158.979,"end":3182.25,"text":"那至於修憲委員會成立了以後後續的程序要怎麼進行什麼時候要開會不在這一次協商的設成範圍當中所以民進黨黨團同不同意成立修憲委員會人數的比例贊不贊成那如果這兩個事情都同意的話那我們就直接move on到第三個問題就第一次修憲委員會召開的時間好來請陳佩玉委員"},{"start":3184.281,"end":3186.722,"text":"主席我應該沒有打斷你對不對因為是你叫我好謝謝主席我想關於這個召開的時間我這邊有個建議來也想要請其他兩黨的委員聽聽看目前這一屆國會被號稱是史上最亂的國會然後擴權違憲最嚴重的國會那我認為也是最不被公民所信任的國會"},{"start":3203.971,"end":3207.612,"text":"所以在這個前提之下假設我們的修憲委員會組成了相關的提案其實需要經過公民複決那個是已經大半年以後的事情了更不要講我們前面修憲委員會開會要討論時間不知道要拉多長什麼時候召開再往後投票還要再往後拉半年"},{"start":3222.237,"end":3238.89,"text":"那我認為有一群最不被信任的國會委員所組成的修憲委員會提出來的修憲案要送到公民面前去投票覆決我認為對於台灣的公民非常的不負責任所以我的建議是我們民進黨團的建議是不宜在此時召開修憲委員會因為我認為請尊重我們的發言你剛發言的時候我們都沒有打斷"},{"start":3245.868,"end":3261.233,"text":"所以我認為此時此刻民進黨團認定不宜在此時召開修憲委員會那我的理由非常的清楚這是一屆最不被信任的國會違憲亂政最荒謬的國會我不知道這樣的國會委員召開修憲委員會的意義何在"},{"start":3263.337,"end":3276.825,"text":"謝謝喔那個剛剛民進黨黨團的代表陳培宇委員明確的表達民主進步黨黨團反對在這個時候成立修憲委員會我的理解應該沒錯誤吧這個是剛剛陳培宇委員講的我有理解錯誤嗎"},{"start":3278.92,"end":3305.195,"text":"好來請鍾嘉賓委員補充這個主席的理解我不敢說是錯誤或正確啦或是說我們剛剛在討論的是日期啦那但是呢您剛剛主席提的說我們現在先處理的是席次的分配席次的分配那我就很好奇啦過去我們成立過修憲委會這次是第三次過去兩次成立修憲委會呢都是由院長來協商分配黨團的席次的啦"},{"start":3305.711,"end":3332.28,"text":"那如果說嚴格來講就39席如果按照所提供的黨團協商參考的表的確議事連所提供的39席它在分配上的比例是這樣但是今天我們所關心的是說因為今天主席就一口咬定說就是我們就來處理協商這個協調這個席次那我就很好奇是不是能不能說明一下是否過去我們成立修憲委員會"},{"start":3334.693,"end":3355.847,"text":"黨團的席次比例都是由院長主持的協商這一點雖然在議事規則裡面並沒有明白的明文顯示我們還是很想要知道一下今天這個協商既然論到是黨團的席次比例是不是可以說明一下過去修憲委員會的黨團席次比例是由誰來主持的"},{"start":3357.736,"end":3377.358,"text":"說明一下今天會召集協商是院會交辦的事項院會決議由台灣民眾黨黨團召集協商當天院會做成這樣子決議的時候在場全體委員沒有人表示反對"},{"start":3378.479,"end":3397.134,"text":"沒有人表示異議那因此我們就依照院會交付的決議召集了今天的協商這不僅僅是符合立法院職權行使法以及院會交付的意旨那現在我們還是回到問題的核心"},{"start":3398.336,"end":3410.796,"text":"第一個 民進黨黨團同不同意成立修憲委員會人數的比例 民進黨黨團同不同意第三個 針對第一次修憲委員會召開的日期民進黨黨團有沒有什麼高見"},{"start":3416.23,"end":3428.058,"text":"我先補充一下嘉賓好像比較進入狀況民進黨會反對自己有四個立委提了四個修憲案然後今天你們說反對成立嗎我說的是這個會期我剛說的是這個會期"},{"start":3433.781,"end":3449.415,"text":"上一屆都成立啦 第一個上一屆都成立 這一屆為什麼不成立第二個 你們七個案子裡面有四個是民進黨民進黨提出的 你們要自拿嘴巴嗎更重要的 上主席已經強調好幾次這是院會交付 交付今天我們要來協商為什麼今天坐在這個地方院會交付我們就是兩個很重要的嘛一個到底要不要成立"},{"start":3456.414,"end":3467.599,"text":"要不要成立 我覺得民進黨就想清楚等一下很明明確確講你們到底是贊成還是反對那如果反對的話你們這四個案子是要撤案還是打假球都不審了嗎這是第一個那第二個"},{"start":3469.315,"end":3496.815,"text":"這個人數這個比例是依照目前立法院的這個席次啊你們如果有更好的更好的比例你們就提出來甚至第三個你們如果對於那個日期剛剛嘉賓提的時候日期不能太早不能太晚那你就明確講嘛哪一個日期我們共同來討論嘛好不好我們就針對針對院會交互我們的主席已經強調了大概五六次啦我們就不要再離題好不好要不要成立然後第二個比例比例人數比例你們到底怎麼贊成是這樣子有意見你就提日期就把它定出來好不好"},{"start":3498.29,"end":3504.744,"text":"好 謝謝張綺卡委員不好意思 王一鳴委員因為鍾嘉斌委員先舉手我先讓他發言好嗎可以喔 謝謝王委員來 請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":3506.513,"end":3526.878,"text":"唉 那個因為剛剛主席先點張旗開委員啦因為剛剛我提出來的問題真的就是要問主席的結果主席請張委員先講那我的問題在主席剛剛的答覆當中呢我大概分兩個部分說明第一個我剛剛提出的詢問是請議事聯盟幫我們說明一下過去我們本院成立修憲委員會關於"},{"start":3529.518,"end":3550.606,"text":"協商二黨團的出席比例就席次是不是由院長來主持協商的就很簡單的問題啊這個議事人員查一下就知道了嘛那至於呢我剛剛沒有問主席這個問題我是請議事人員主席請議事人員幫我們查一下那如果可以的話呢主席可以請議事人員幫我們查一下那第二個呢"},{"start":3551.566,"end":3566.457,"text":"剛剛主席在藝聖人還沒有進行回覆之前就說到是根據我們院會的交易那其實也提到所謂的立法院職權行使法那我們很誠懇的請大家剛剛藝聖人也在翻了我告訴你第123頁第68條第12章黨團協商那我們今天是屬於為協商議案"},{"start":3573.542,"end":3591.095,"text":"是協商議案或解決爭議事項剛剛有提到不是爭議因為當天有提到說要成立修憲委員會要交付協商那這個是一個院會交付的議案要協商議案得由院長或各黨團向院長請求進行黨團協商那麼當然這是"},{"start":3598.325,"end":3623.832,"text":"院會提出來院會就要求我們來進行黨團協商那麼至於說是不是要交由提案的黨團來進行這裡面我們看一下在這裡面第70條議案交由黨團協商時由該議案之院會提案說明人所屬黨團負責召集"},{"start":3626.158,"end":3650.328,"text":"通知各黨團書面簽名指派代表兩人那麼該院會說明人為當然代表並由其擔任協商主席但院會說明人更換黨團的這個就不再贅述了啦那我們來看一下這個議事人員可以幫我們看一下68條跟第70條呢我上次也是另外一個黨團協商呢我來就教於我們主席那個是70條"},{"start":3651.508,"end":3664.897,"text":"那個70條的適用時期呢是在於我們會扯到有委員會所屬的問題我們先看到第70條第二項在第70條的情況的第二項呢他要有一人為審查會委員"},{"start":3666.892,"end":3683.401,"text":"那因為這個院會這個不是審查會提出來的提案是在院會提出來的提案所以我才會認為說這個提案為什麼成立修憲委員會之後有關於各黨團席次的分配是由院長來主持協商的因為第68條跟第70條它是不太一樣的之前主席也擔任過由委員會提案"},{"start":3689.71,"end":3697.781,"text":"之後到了院會然後再交付進行協商所以在那個時候就會適用到第70條但是我們現在的狀況比較像是第68條那為什麼我說比較像因為我本身"},{"start":3704.79,"end":3718.702,"text":"我也不曾參加過第一次修憲委員會的成立我只有在第十屆參與過本院第二次成立修憲委員會的時候我有參加過所以我才是要請教我們醫事人員查一下第一次成立修憲委員會的時候"},{"start":3720.163,"end":3738.041,"text":"那麼是不是由院長來主持協商那至少我在參與第二次修憲委員會成立的時候的確是由當時的由院長在主持協商的那根據的就是立法院自宣新法第68條而剛剛的主席說要看立法院自宣新法那是第70條70條是因為有委員會審查後那提到院會的時候"},{"start":3743.246,"end":3755.853,"text":"那麼交付協商的 那麼那個時候就會由提案的委員 提案的黨團來進行還會有要求各黨團指派的代表 應要有一人為審查會委員請看一下68條跟70條好 來說明一下 我再說一次今天會召集協商 是院會交付的決議"},{"start":3767.386,"end":3795.157,"text":"院會交付的決議明確的交由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商上一屆的國會由誰協商怎麼進行我尊重上一屆的國會這一屆的國會是由院會交付由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商我們在今年6月20號收到立法院議事處函證本給台灣民眾黨立法院黨團"},{"start":3796.397,"end":3819.11,"text":"附本給中國國民黨、立法院黨團、民主進步黨、立法院黨團、修憲委員會等等這個公文量達應該都收到了啦阻止本院台灣民眾黨黨團鑒於本鑒修憲委員會掌以憲法修正案之審議相關事項等等等等說明依照"},{"start":3820.979,"end":3835.424,"text":"114年6月20號第三會期第17次院會決議辦理這今天所召集的黨團協商就是依照6月20號第三會期第17次院會決議辦理這個是立法院議事處的來函"},{"start":3837.125,"end":3858.713,"text":"所以我還是回到今天協商的主題請問民進黨贊不贊成成立修憲委員會人數同不同意那以及第一次修憲委員會召開的日期有沒有什麼具體的建議來請謝謝主席那個主席很用心的念了那個議事書的發文嘛"},{"start":3859.178,"end":3880.353,"text":"沒有錯啊,就是因為議事處有發文,我今天才能夠有機會問啊那議事處要不要說明一下,就這麼簡單的問題過去兩次的修行文的成立,是不是由院長協商然後呢,那這一次第三次修行文成立,議事處發文說是這樣子那是根據哪一條規定,我們好歹可以知道一下吧"},{"start":3881.413,"end":3902.667,"text":"這個跟上一屆的立法院是如何如何主席口口聲說是尊重上一屆的立法院上一屆的立法院已經現在是第十一屆了但是第十一屆的立法院所進行的方式當然不是說十一屆就自己完全重新重來過啊一定有立法院的議事常規慣例可以遵循啊我們只是做個詢問而已"},{"start":3904.208,"end":3921.889,"text":"我剛剛已經回答鍾嘉賓我的問題那個是一個議事處的通知我是依照議事處的通知是依照院會的決議嘛我剛剛不是唸了嗎不是我請教一下嘛是哪一條剛剛我不是就已經跟你講說是依照立法院院會的決議這些議事人員都是奉公守法的公務員"},{"start":3922.99,"end":3942.23,"text":"他們依照立法院院會的決議要求我們依照立法院的決議來召開黨團協商因此坐在這邊嘛主席你這樣算不算打動我的我要問的是是68條還是70條不是啊我很尊重你的發言我只是很迷惑一個問題你有沒有問我就說是68條還是70條可不可以告訴我們一下"},{"start":3945.393,"end":3952.296,"text":"立法院院會當初做成這個決議的時候就是依照立法院執權行使法70條的規定是確定嗎?是就是依照立法院執權行使法70條的規定回答你的問題了吧來請議事人員"},{"start":3964.911,"end":3977.982,"text":"奉主席之命跟各位委員做個說明因為這次民眾黨黨團的提案是一般提案它依據的是職權行使法第八條第三項對好如果藍色的這個是98頁對對對它的第三項它是立法委員提出的其他議案"},{"start":3994.554,"end":4022.329,"text":"朗讀標題後提案人說明只去大體討論一決交付審查或禁負二讀或不予審議那現在那一天17號17次6月20號這個提案本身是禁負二讀那依照之前的那個職權行使法修正的74條之一現在有明文規定就是禁負二讀的案子你是說第8條第3項嗎"},{"start":4026.154,"end":4045.827,"text":"對後面74條之一是本來循例這種一般提案禁負二讀就會交協商然後在上一次的質詢行使法修正羅志強委員的院會通過是74條之一禁負二讀就交協商那在院會的處理就是交付"},{"start":4046.327,"end":4066.006,"text":"提案的台灣民眾黨黨團來負責召集協商那鍾委員你剛提到第十屆的部分那個也是那時候的民眾黨黨團提出那民進黨黨團他有提說要由院長來召集協商所以第十屆就是由院長來召集協商在院會的時候"},{"start":4068.149,"end":4088.008,"text":"對 因為第十屆也是以一般提案的提出這樣子 說明完畢好 沒有關係喔 現在我再確認一次啦 中國國民黨黨團主席 我可不可以詢問啦因為我剛剛他的回答我的問題我可以詢問不好意思喔 先讓我主持議事好不好我再說一次中國國民黨黨團 台灣民眾黨黨團 同意成立修憲委員會"},{"start":4092.236,"end":4103.862,"text":"也同意依照議事委員建立的人數來組成修憲委員會請問民主進步黨黨團是不是同意成立修憲委員會然後人數是不是同意按照議事委員的建議"},{"start":4105.835,"end":4124.11,"text":"這個主席是在指揮訴訟是不是我在問議事人員我不是在指揮訴訟我是在主持會議你主持會議可以啊我們不是你的質詢對象啊我跟你講啊我沒有在質詢你啊我在主持會議議事人員也不是你質詢的對象我剛剛請主席議事人員也不是你質詢的對象我沒有在質詢我是在請教剛剛聽得很清楚"},{"start":4127.052,"end":4132.038,"text":"議事領言說是根據立法院執行法第70條之一剛剛主席說是根據立法院執行法第70條很清楚的剛剛的聲音都聽得很清楚了我本來問主席說是根據68條還是70條"},{"start":4142.449,"end":4148.012,"text":"主席說是根據70條我就很納悶因為70條我讀不出主席認為我們今天是由他來主持這個協商的結果非常謝謝議事人員的說明我們知道兩點我要確認一下這兩點在場委員都認定無誤第一他說這是根據立法院執行法第8條的一般提案而且是依禁婦惡毒的程序那麼禁婦惡毒的程序呢那麼在上一屆"},{"start":4171.562,"end":4194.874,"text":"在上一屆因為這個程序呢有院會當時有民進黨提出要求由院長來主持協商所以上一屆提出由院長主持但是他有說是在一般提案院會交付審議的時候呢是有提案說要請院長主持那這點確立無誤嘛所以我說上次是由院長主持不過是在交付的時候是有黨團提出"},{"start":4197.876,"end":4215.732,"text":"但是這一次為什麼我們院會交付的時候會變成是一的是新修訂的74條之一進戶二讀議案由提案委員或所屬黨團負責召集那就懂了嘛"},{"start":4216.752,"end":4229.562,"text":"那就是根據新修訂的職權刑事法第74條之一這一個在上屆的立法院是沒有的上屆立法院的職權刑事法第74條沒有74條之一嘛只有74條嘛是不是這樣沒錯吧我的確認是這樣上次立法院"},{"start":4235.285,"end":4253.793,"text":"沒有 我要跟你確定啊 因為你剛剛說是根據立法院執行 七十四條之一啊不好意思喔 我再說一次我們在院會交付由台灣民眾黨黨團召集協商這個是院會的決議 不好意思啊 我在問他的法律依據啊 你插什麼嘴啊你插什麼嘴啊 我在問說這是根據法律依據 請中嘉賓委員不要咆哮 對不起"},{"start":4257.194,"end":4282.647,"text":"因為議事人員剛剛就在旁邊搖頭我再說一次今天召集協商是交辦 院會交辦我們要召集協商當初在院會院長宣布由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商的時候在場所有的委員沒有人表示異議沒有人表示異議這種黨團協商我必須要老實講"},{"start":4284.188,"end":4308.817,"text":"進行過非常多次了不要內行人講外行話故意來這邊干擾議事啊我已經非常有耐心的一而再再而三的說明跟解釋了所以民進黨黨團現在到底同不同意成立修憲委員會人數的比例到底是多少剛剛議事人員已經非常有耐心的回答了你的問題了"},{"start":4310.237,"end":4328.737,"text":"我們現在在執行院會交付的黨團協商請問民進黨黨團同不同意成立修憲委員會贊不贊成依照議事人員的建議的人數來加以組成請針對今天協商的主題發言好嗎你如果"},{"start":4329.678,"end":4348.147,"text":"對於院會那樣的交付法規範有疑義認為院會交付給台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商不對當初你在院會就要表達異議了當初你在院會民主進步黨立法院黨團完全沒有提出任何異議"},{"start":4349.548,"end":4369.963,"text":"院長做成的決議要求我們來召集協商我今天作為會議的主席就是依照這一次協商的主題在主持會議我也請教各個黨團的意見現在民主進步黨黨團可不可以針對這一次協商的主題戰不戰成成立修憲委員會"},{"start":4371.064,"end":4376.75,"text":"以及人數是不是同意按照議事人員的建議就針對問題來表達黨團的立場好嗎"},{"start":4382.361,"end":4398.951,"text":"我們尊重主席的詢問在主席詢問的同時我們也用主席的話不要外行充當內行我們在進行任何諮詢的時候都是與法有據我相信當時院會也交互我們黨團協商的時候呢也是與法有據那現在確認根據的是哪一條法"},{"start":4403.534,"end":4420.398,"text":"我們才確認他是與他有據那也謝謝剛剛議事人員耐心的說明我們很清楚的聽到這次本屆修憲委員會的成立在院會交付的時候是根據我們本屆才通過的立法院職權行使法第74條之一不是剛剛主席搖頭晃腦在說的第70條"},{"start":4427.381,"end":4437.271,"text":"如果主席的認知跟伊斯蘭人的說明有不一樣的時候我當然問清楚啊主席是不是認為我們是根據70條來決定今天的黨團協商還是我們現在是根據伊斯蘭人所說明的74條之一來進行協商法條的適用不同我們參與協商的時候的認知就是不同我知道但是主席還沒有想要你發言啊"},{"start":4451.805,"end":4475.699,"text":"王毓民委員不好意思王毓民委員沒關係先讓他講啦因為現在在直播每一個人發言的內容大家全部都可以看得到啦講的有道理沒有道理是在背個議事還是真的要來協商所有的公民透過直播大家都看得非常的清楚所以專家兵委員你剛剛表達的意思大家全部都聽到了我再次請教民主進步黨立法院黨團"},{"start":4477.02,"end":4481.685,"text":"同不同意成立修憲委員會 暫不贊成依照議事人員所講的人數來加以組成我們對於今天議事人員所說是根據立法院職權刑事法第74條之一我們認為這個程序是理解院會交付的程序"},{"start":4501.283,"end":4504.786,"text":"那我覺得主席也不要迴避剛剛我在請教的時候您多次都不願意讓議事人員說明都要自己盡為說明你說明的結果就是全國人民都在看的內容就是我問你是68條還是70條你堅持是70條我才會不斷的詢問因為本席對於立法第70條的認知跟你所認為的判斷有所不同"},{"start":4526.704,"end":4528.845,"text":"那果然議事人員說明了我們現在適用的程序是上屆所沒有的例子法74條之一所以本席因為有上屆的參與經驗才會疑惑說為什麼上屆是由院長主持協商而這一次卻不是"},{"start":4544.654,"end":4549.801,"text":"那不是的原因就是剛剛議事委員所說明的因為有增加了74條之一所以院會在進行普通提案交互協商的時候院長就直接根據74條之一才是由提案的委員或黨團來主持"},{"start":4560.425,"end":4583.835,"text":"這是再明白簡單不過的道理也只要主席願意接受議事人員的說明很明白的跟在場的協商代表說明我們就清楚了今天這個黨團協商是根據例子法來的不是主席自己發明的所以我在這裡也很清楚的說明我們進行的主席多次的詢問民進黨同不同意比例如何我剛剛說了"},{"start":4588.898,"end":4612.139,"text":"這些都不是我們現在要回答主席的問題我剛剛提的是提問我不是在回答問題我在提問目前我們在這裡 協商的依據就這麼簡單沒有什麼困難也不要隨便給人家戴帽子是杯葛協商不懂議事規則 不懂立法院職權行事法不懂本院在進行會議所依據的法令就不要在那邊罵人家外行充內行"},{"start":4613.241,"end":4639.158,"text":"這個是沒有必要的我們是很誠意的如果議事人員我有說的不夠清楚或跟你的意思有違的地方您或許可以再跟我指正一下畢竟我們美國委員在這裡一方面也是行使職權二方面也是有所學習我希望呢在新增了立法院職權新司法74條之一之後我們對於這種一般提案進入惡毒的場合我們未來的協商是怎麼進行有一個更清楚更明白的理解謝謝議事人員"},{"start":4643.297,"end":4662.069,"text":"我再請議事人員再說一次因為剛剛議事人員說他想要再說明一次我也尊重他那等議事人員說完了以後請民進黨黨團說明一下針對今天協商的主題到底佔不佔成成立修憲委員會人數的比例佔不佔成議事人員的建議來先請議事人員做說明"},{"start":4668.308,"end":4692.728,"text":"跟委員做個說明補充說明就是這個部分呢七十四條之一之前那個之前是沒有是循例辦理然後文發的協商通知裡面因為剛主席講的也沒有錯因為他是一個黨團協商商裡面的一個條所以我們的發文裡面也是有提到職權刑事法的七十條以上說明"},{"start":4696.877,"end":4720.167,"text":"OK 好 沒關係啦 議事程序 議事人員也說明了那現在針對同不同意成立修憲委員會以及人數是不是按照議事人員建議的組成民進黨黨團今天有沒有要表達立場 贊成還是反對 還是今天不表達立場因為我們已經協商 現在48分鐘了是不是可以請民主進步黨黨團的代表說明民主進步黨黨團的立場"},{"start":4721.786,"end":4733.516,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們剛剛已經說得很清楚了這是一屆最不被信任的國會我們認為這不是一個開啟修憲委員會的好時間那我們要求如果今天大家沒有共識我們就送院長協商"},{"start":4734.642,"end":4759.672,"text":"好那個是不是送院長協商這件事情立法院職權刑事法68條規定的很清楚民進黨黨團如果希望院長協商的話請民進黨黨團進行發文那因為今天民進黨黨團反對在這個時候成立修憲委員會那我們的協商就不成立那我們接下來就按照議事規則來加以處理好謝謝大家今天的參與謝謝"},{"start":4769.59,"end":4782.794,"text":"這四個案子是要匯監驗嗎?匯免掉嗎?他們也沒有要匯監驗,違背自己的選擇,也影響了資格"}]}},{"id":"162956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b047677e7ec7868d9d125dcd864ea85ae3a86deb72054c03a3c59db5358bae9930f9bb5cf0ddfa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:07:10 - 11:15:39","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」。二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那曾主委好好 曾主委今天本席想要就原住民未成年少女的關懷來向您提出質詢我們很希望每位原住民的少女都能夠像高山百合那樣盛開然後像朝陽一般的燦爛"},{"start":28.342,"end":47.832,"text":"本席先請教你,你知道我要問什麼問題嗎?你們有沒有發現原住民少女有哪些你們沒有做好而且很有問題的,有沒有?這原住民少女的相關關懷在你們是哪一個單位?"},{"start":49.099,"end":75.852,"text":"在這裡 社福處是不是叫做什麼 社福處那跟委員報告喔沒有沒有 我是請問主委沒關係 你知道社福處就好主委您知不知道有沒有在注意一些很多人關心原住民各方面上次本席質詢問您這個原住民學生退學的問題你也不知道數據那原住民少女有什麼問題你知道嗎"},{"start":77.356,"end":85.617,"text":"是不是有些家暴的問題家暴所以你知道有家暴問題然後還有呢大概是家庭的問題什麼的問題家庭這個是我等一下要講的現在我們看到今天戶政司也來了內政部戶政司的一個數據"},{"start":107.314,"end":128.811,"text":"2021年全國15到19歲的少女生育15到19歲她就開始生育的這個比率全國的比率全國這樣的少女的比率是千分之3.5那你知道原住民少女這樣的比率是多少嗎你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":133.008,"end":159.484,"text":"應該是2到3倍 錯4到5倍所以這麼高17.2人家3.5你們17.2所以剛剛主委你不敢講我聽到旁邊的幕僚說原住民未成年少女有什麼問題除了家庭暴力 他再講了一些問題所以你知道家庭的問題 那現在"},{"start":161.698,"end":169.01,"text":"顯然你們沒有注意那這一個問題你們覺得可以怎麼樣來來防治或者是來改善"},{"start":171.414,"end":196.999,"text":"當然即刻我們就是要求就是我們的散佈在各個縣市的原家中心我們要他們原家中心我們要他們去追蹤要他們去追蹤宣導然後包括我們的這個你要宣導什麼重點是宣導嘛他們的問題你們要解決其實這些少女你看她才十幾歲要去關懷"},{"start":199.744,"end":225.523,"text":"要去關懷 你怎麼關懷我想請教你們有沒有可能建立原住民少女陪伴員的制度可不可以嚴加社工就可以了 還有社工員也可以可是你社工就都沒有掌握啊 才會這樣比例你看 比一般我們全國的數據高出這麼多"},{"start":227.13,"end":254.84,"text":"特別是原住民少女我相信你們應該要很清楚從國中到高中他的一個銜接期很多人會離鄉寄宿所以他面臨了孤立還有歧視所以產生他高等於是很早就生育的這種高風險點很多學者都研究這個數據也一直有但是我沒有看到你們在重視"},{"start":258.64,"end":286.531,"text":"這個謝謝委員的指教我們即刻就說要馬上要加護中心還有我們的社工園要去追蹤而且剛剛講委員講的希望解決他們的問題你追蹤是針對已經有這樣的你繼續關懷他那你不能讓這種情況一直發生所以你要去找那個根源嘛那很多少女他如果有陪伴園制度他有孤立無援的時候他才有人可以"},{"start":288.672,"end":313.886,"text":"這種投訴或者是尋求對他的支援啊所以你們那個原家中心的那個是叫輔導員社工員他對我們很多的這樣的一個少女他平常他也沒有辦法掌握啊我們會要求啦你要怎麼要求那你在執行面有沒有辦法"},{"start":317.205,"end":339.726,"text":"好 你剛剛有講家暴 那家庭問題 很多還有失能家庭的問題 你們要怎麼解決好 那跟委員報告齁 那因為我們現在已經納入到社會安全網裡面那我們原家中心跟主流的社福中心是兩個齁 合作那我們現在針對齁 只要是說在家庭當中 個案當中我早就預期你們會講合作你合作的結果就是數據一直增加 不行嘛"},{"start":340.468,"end":366.019,"text":"所以我們原家中心226個社工園當中也會讓我們所有在前面的預防的一些相關宣導也會做每年大概我們的場次大概都有一百多場以上社福那邊是不是在衛福部是的所以那我接著再請教主委你有沒有形成一個跨部會的一個機制因為這個跟原民會教育部甚至衛福部都有關啊"},{"start":366.599,"end":380.38,"text":"有你們有形成跨部會的機制那本席可不可以要求就是說原住民少女生活照顧撫育或輔導的這樣的機制有沒有"},{"start":384.059,"end":407.267,"text":"特別針對原住民因為我們現在都有跟衛福部有一個聯繫會我們本身也有推動這個小組那我們會相關就是針對一些像這種衛生你那個推動小組在哪裡在你們我們會內也有就是針對人民會裡面對會內也有那你現在全國這樣散下去你們怎麼掌握因為我們現在各地方政府當中也有一些33位的督導"},{"start":408.027,"end":424.399,"text":"那有66個原家中心所以我們固定都有一個聯繫會議在掌握這些事情可是掌握你有沒有落實嘛是我們會加強落實那請問因為有關家庭暴力貧窮或者是要飲酒飲都可能是"},{"start":425.16,"end":448.339,"text":"增加這個原住民少女提早生育的這個風險那你們有沒有投入針對他們的祖父母或是他們的這種創傷療癒的計畫來強化家庭的支持能夠阻斷這種這麼多少女他自己身心都沒有發展成熟你就讓他生育"},{"start":449.079,"end":460.024,"text":"是 所以因為這個是一個個案就是從一個家庭個案當中因為我們講的Case就是個案會從個案當中他所有家庭的成員當中都會去幫他做一個處遇"},{"start":461.345,"end":487.455,"text":"那可是你們平常對原住民這種家庭有這種家庭暴力你不能有了個案才開始那就是發生了我指的是你知道嘛哪些家庭有家庭暴力這一定會知道嘛或真的特別貧窮的還有藥飲跟酒飲我真的不希望我第五會期還會在這因為下個會期很快就到了我給你們一些時間"},{"start":488.929,"end":508.284,"text":"這一塊拜託好不好來加強我們自己原住民的孩子對不對他們這麼年少可不可以給他們一個很美好很燦爛很陽光的人生好嗎好謝謝加油謝謝好謝謝徐信英委員的諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時7分）謝謝主席，有請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：曾主委好。曾主委，今天本席想要就原住民未成年少女的關懷來向您提出質詢，我們很希望每位原住民少女都能夠像高山百合那樣盛開，像朝陽一般的燦爛。本席先請教你，你知道我要問什麼問題嗎？你們有沒有發現原住民少女有哪些方面你們沒有做好而且很有問題的，有沒有？原住民少女的關懷，在你們是哪一個單位主政？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在社福處，是不是請處長說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：社福處？"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是請問主委，沒關係，你知道是社福處就好。","主委，很多人關心原住民各方面問題，上次本席質詢問您原住民學生退學的問題，你也不知道數據，那原住民少女有什麼問題，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是原住民有些家暴的問題，是不是家暴？"],["徐委員欣瑩：家暴？所以你知道有家暴問題。還有呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大概是家庭的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：家庭。"],["徐委員欣瑩：家庭？好，這個是我等一下要講的。今天戶政司也來了，我們看到內政部戶政司的一個數據，2021年全國15到19歲少女開始生育的比率，全國的比率是千分之三點五，那你知道原住民15到19歲少女生育的比率是多少嗎？你們有掌握嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是兩到三倍。"],["徐委員欣瑩：錯！四到五倍，比率這麼高，千分之十七點二，人家三點五，你們十七點二。所以剛剛主委你不敢講，我聽到旁邊的幕僚說原住民未成年少女有什麼問題，除了家庭暴力，他再講了一些問題，所以你知道家庭的問題，現在顯然你們沒有注意，這個問題你們覺得可以怎麼樣防治或者是改善？"],["曾主任委員智勇：當然，我們即刻要求我們散布在各個縣市的原家中心，我們要他們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼？原家中心？"],["曾主任委員智勇：原家中心，我們要他們去追蹤宣導，包括我們的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要宣導什麼？重點是宣導嗎？他們的問題你們要解決，你看這些少女才十幾歲。"],["曾主任委員智勇：要去關懷。"],["徐委員欣瑩：要去關懷？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你怎麼關懷？我想請教，有沒有可能建立原住民少女陪伴員的制度，可不可以？"],["曾主任委員智勇：原家社工就可以了，還有社工員也可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：社工？可是你就都沒有掌握，才會是這樣的比率。你看，比一般全國的數據高出這麼多，特別是原住民少女，我相信你們應該要很清楚，從國中到高中，他的銜接期，很多人會離鄉寄宿，所以他面臨了孤立，還有歧視，所以產生很早就生育的這種高風險點。很多學者都在研究，這個數據也一直都有，但是我沒有看到你們在重視。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員的指教，我們即刻交付中心和社工員去追蹤，而且剛剛委員講的，希望解決他們的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你追蹤是針對已經有這樣的情形，你繼續關懷他……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但你不能讓這種情況一直發生，所以你要去找那個根源嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很多少女如果有陪伴員制度，他孤立無援的時候，他才有人可以投訴或者是尋求……"],["曾主任委員智勇：找到協助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，尋求對他的支援啊！你們原家中心的那個是叫輔導員，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：社工員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對於很多這樣的少女，平常社工員也沒有辦法掌握啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會要求。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要怎麼要求？你在執行面有沒有辦法？好，你剛剛有講家暴，很多還有失能家庭的問題，你們要怎麼解決？"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，因為我們現在已經納入到社會安全網裡面，我們原家中心跟主流的社福中心兩個中心合作，我們現在針對只要是在家庭當中，個案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我早就預期你們會講合作，你合作的結果就是數據一直增加，不行嘛！"],["羅處長赫踛：所以我們原家中心222個社工員所有在前面預防的相關宣導也會做，每年我們的場次大概都有一百多場以上。"],["徐委員欣瑩：社福那邊是不是在衛福部？"],["羅處長赫踛：是的、是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我接著再請教主委，你有沒有形成一個跨部會的機制？因為這個跟原民會、教育部，甚至衛福部都有關啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有形成跨部會的機制？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有跨部會的合作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席可不可以要求，原住民少女生活照顧撫育或輔導這樣的機制，有沒有？特別針對原住民少女。"],["羅處長赫踛：報告委員，因為我們現在跟衛福部都有一個聯繫會議，我們本身也有推動小組，我們會針對一些像這種未成年少女……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你那個推動小組在哪裡？"],["羅處長赫踛：我們會內也有，就是針對……"],["徐委員欣瑩：原民會裡面？"],["羅處長赫踛：對，會內也有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在全國這樣散下去，你們怎麼掌握？"],["羅處長赫踛：因為現在各縣地方政府當中有33位督導，66個原家中心，所以我們固定都有一個聯繫會議在掌握這些事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是掌握，你有沒有落實嘛？"],["羅處長赫踛：是，我們會加強落實。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為有關家庭暴力、貧窮或者是藥癮、酒癮都可能是增加原住民少女提早生育的風險，你們有沒有投入針對他們的祖父母或是他們的這種創傷療癒的計畫，來強化家庭的支持，能夠阻斷這種情形？這麼多少女，他自己身心都沒有發展成熟，就讓他生育！"],["羅處長赫踛：是，因為這是一個個案，是從一個家庭……"],["徐委員欣瑩：哪有什麼個案？"],["羅處長赫踛：因為我們講的case就是個案，會從一個個案當中，他所有的家庭成員都會去幫他做一個處遇。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是你們平常對原住民有這種家庭暴力的情況，你不能有了個案才開始，那就是發生了，我指的是，你知道嘛！哪些家庭有家庭暴力，這一定會知道，或真的特別貧窮的這種，還有藥癮跟酒癮。"],["羅處長赫踛：謝謝委員指教。我們就是在前面，督導也會做處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我真的不希望，我第5會期還會在這，因為下個會期很快就到了，我給你們一些時間，這一塊拜託加強，好不好？"],["羅處長赫踛：好，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們自己原住民的孩子，對不對？他們這麼年少，可不可以給他們一個很美好、很燦爛、很陽光的人生，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：加油，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","報告委員會，登記發言委員，除不在場者以外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答到此結束。","張智倫委員、高金素梅委員、蘇巧慧委員、丁學忠委員所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢以及剛剛質詢未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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設有人權工作小組但在延民會官網上 我們看到最新的記錄還留在2023年第三的會議但根據我們延民會的"},{"start":43.914,"end":73.154,"text":"原住民委員會人權工作小組設立的要點在每六個月最少需要召開一次的會議但是目前我們官網公開的資料就是最後一次就是這個日期所以我們在2023年11月9號就是距離現在就是遠遠超過我們的設定要點所以說這個半年請問一下我目前超過"},{"start":74.154,"end":92.357,"text":"一年半的時間我們延民會這邊的人權工作到底是有沒有召開這都是問號再問號啦所以再回應一下好 謝謝委員其實我們都有更細的是不是那個我們的處長"},{"start":93.118,"end":112.123,"text":"做更清楚的這個說明好 跟委員報告就是2024年的我們有按規定每六個月開一次但是我們就是可能漏掉了把那個會議紀錄刪除到晚上那2025年的部分因為我們委員任期到所以上半年我們在聆聘委員聆聘之後我們會按照那個規定再召開這個委員會議"},{"start":115.023,"end":138.918,"text":"所以你們有召開都沒有更新要開什麼不知道所以如果有開的話為什麼公開的會議記錄會停留在2023年我還要注意到第三個會期記錄裡面我們的出席的小組委員像剛才你說的但是我們只共十位兩位請假"},{"start":141.5,"end":149.173,"text":"六位人代表六位是代表來開會的不是本人所以主委這個比例"},{"start":151.751,"end":176.341,"text":"所以我們小組委員是由組委聘任的這樣我們組委上任後呢 小組的會議有沒有到齊了或者有積極去推動嗎因為我們沒看到啊 你講的我們也沒有看到 網路都沒有了 你們怎麼樣去開會 或者這樣子的比例是開會有效嗎"},{"start":180.157,"end":197.685,"text":"剛剛講的這些我們的會議紀錄有一些就是我們有開但是沒有上網的我們會補足很快的我們回去趕快補足那至於這些代理的是會裡面的主管是代理外聘的委員還是一樣的出席開會你是說外聘的是沒有代理是內聘的有代理這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":208.86,"end":234.155,"text":"如果是內聘的代理的話 大家都要送班喔來開會都沒來喔還找別人代理 這個叫內聘嗎不是 科人處長他有其他的業務啦那這個來代理的大部分都是科長以上一年要開兩次而已 就是還有其他的所以這些都不重要啦 不重要這個委員還要嗎"},{"start":237.84,"end":242.834,"text":"這個我回去會再要求跟委員報告我們回去要求就是不可以這樣子都是代理的啦"},{"start":243.943,"end":247.484,"text":"對啊 因為代理是說外聘還是內聘 我們這小組裡面十個人就是兩個請假 六個代理所以這個是開這個會 是沒有開還是有開 開的效率如何 也不敢放在網路所以這個真的是我們覺得這樣子的"},{"start":269.519,"end":284.517,"text":"所以說你說根據我們這樣子的重要規定就是不僅是派任還有就是繼續這樣子的方式的話我們覺得說我們前任委員有沒有續聘"},{"start":286.019,"end":297.509,"text":"或者是說所有的小組有沒有按照這樣子去開所以我們今年在審查預算我也注意到我們延民會不管便利預算的計畫還有就是說我們的推動上"},{"start":301.733,"end":304.936,"text":"都是說經常讓人覺得說 人民會相當就是不消極很敷衍 不認真 所以我們覺得說連我們剛才你說的 連內聘都不把這個當一回事所以我們覺得說這樣的小組為了配合行政院的人權保障 收集的督導"},{"start":325.131,"end":329.574,"text":"我們原住民族是說司法我們的人權但是我們種族歧視等的爭議案件我覺得是非常重要的一件事情希望我們原民會要更積極才真正的讓我們原住民的朋友的權利真的有保障因為這個是人權的委員會我們的人權在哪裡"},{"start":351.249,"end":378.836,"text":"所以這個部分我希望是我們的主委真的要重視啦好第二個就是要想要請問一下今天的我們的憲法法庭在11年的宣判原住民身份違憲後依法在3年內要完成這個修法還有另外訂一個特別法今年10月就是到期限了所以呢在我們"},{"start":380.157,"end":382.681,"text":"言明會在五頁積極業務報告中也說到務實推動原住民主法的體系"},{"start":391.614,"end":411.882,"text":"體系制度所以我們報告上也有寫113年開始在辦了九場一見徵詢會議請問這個會議中有多少現有的原住民族代表還有有多少真正的就是來自平埔"},{"start":412.851,"end":440.264,"text":"體系組的這個評補組的族人參與或有就是目前掌握的人數還有我們的會議質詢的族人占比了多少但是我們都沒有看到所以我們希望說真的要聽大家的意見還有參加嗎不是用講的所以我們希望這個真正就是聽大家的意見"},{"start":442.888,"end":455.849,"text":"我們所有的座談會會議紀錄也會在網站上來呈現而且我親自去主持的就是平埔原住民一定是平埔原住民的族人來參加"},{"start":456.823,"end":474.63,"text":"那當然有一些場是人比較多比如說像台南有到七八十個人至少七八十個人來那最少都超過五十個人參加不但是只有平埔原住民的族群我們召開原來的山地原住民跟平地原住民我們也召開五場"},{"start":475.31,"end":496.137,"text":"因為這個多少他們也要讓他們感受到就是說他們也要表達意見對這個平埔原住民生物法草案的這個就是說成立之後這個成立之後發布之後對他們有什麼影響我們也必須要做說明所以跟委員包括我們會在網站上來呈現參加的人數還有內容我們會補齊"},{"start":499.138,"end":503.86,"text":"對還有他們的就是我們的群體的意見因為目前已經有九個提出就是我們的民主的識別申請這是我們但是我們的就是屬南島語系的民主制其他的原住民民主也是在這個這個這一群寫者共同發表的聲明呼應主管機構應該禁訴依法核定並公報"},{"start":529.253,"end":532.514,"text":"避免就是延遲了我們族群的權利所以說如果你有這樣子去開會那這些人為什麼還有說在報告中就看到的是我們的特政研議辦理我們民主認定的程序作業目前研議的如何還有審查的時間多長"},{"start":554.163,"end":557.485,"text":"如果是有明確的話為什麼還有人再來去所以我們希望說在實務推動不只是法規的訂定而且說在乎整體的政策資源排擠還有重新分配我們要請教我們的主委說在我們掌握的"},{"start":573.531,"end":594.8,"text":"平埔組人口數多少還有未來增加這個組別的時候必須我們延民會現有的配置資源會不會不夠是否已經佔用的人數有向行政院爭取這些的預算嗎我們平埔組未來"},{"start":596.44,"end":625.272,"text":"經特別法認定族群公告後取得身份是否直接應用原住民族的基本法有無就是銜接應用的問題這個都是到目前為止的報告中我們是沒有看到的我跟委員報告你當然我們現在在盤點那最重要是這個法這個法過了之後我們立刻就做後面的這些這些工作當然我們已經都準備好了"},{"start":625.632,"end":652.334,"text":"准备好了,他今天要三年准备什么时候准备要久还没准备好我们到今天报告也没看到所以我们希望我们就是目前有区分刚才我们也有我们的政委也有说我们分就是3地原住民平地原住民未来新增了平补组的后呢我们原住民后我们如何在苍政权还有不轮就是"},{"start":653.955,"end":661.843,"text":"任何我們的種族的就是都要平等的參與所以原住民是否針對就是我們平埔族的族群整體的規劃不管是社會福利、教育輔助或者文化的傳承與鼓勵的方案如果有的話這個部分因為已經快三年了現在來排但是我們看到報告裡面都沒有了所以說你準備好"},{"start":679.839,"end":700.707,"text":"這好到一好到二好到好這個我們就沒看到所以說如果真的剛剛的這些討論議題如果我們原住民內部都有討論希望你真的拿出來讓大家覺得是說不要只要耍耍所以說我們必須說只要就是"},{"start":701.807,"end":705.288,"text":"判限我們針對這個憲法跟對這個需求我們一定要真正的落實不要等我們召委在排的時候你也拿不出東西拿不出東西就說有有有我們就看不出來所以我們希望真正的屬於我們原住民的"},{"start":723.601,"end":738.918,"text":"的需求還有說不同族群的權利我們主委更用心的啦最後是不是讓我們有一些我們的會議資料等等是不是我們補充一份給我們麥委員好不好好好所以要拜託一下謝謝好謝謝麥委員最後我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時54分）謝謝主席。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["主席：曾主委已經就位了。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，真的很認真。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：我要請教一下主委，我們原民會為了推動原住民族人權保障業務工作設有人權工作小組，但在原民會的官網上所看到最新的紀錄還停留在2023年第3次會議，根據原住民族委員會人權工作小組設置要點規定，該小組每六個月至少要召開一次會議，但是目前原民會官網公開資料所顯示的最後一次開會日期是2023年11月9號的第3次會議，距離現在遠遠超過設置要點所規定的半年，到目前為止超過一年半了！請問一下，原民會的人權工作小組會議到底有沒有召開？這是問號再問號啦，所以請回應一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員，其實我們都有開會，至於更細的部分，我請我們的處長來做更清楚的說明。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：跟委員報告，2024年的部分，我們有按規定每六個月開一次會議，我們可能漏掉了把那個會議紀錄上傳到網站；至於2025年的部分，因為我們的委員任期屆至，所以上半年我們在遴聘委員，委員遴聘之後，我們會按照相關規定再召開委員會議。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們有召開但都沒有上網更新，這樣開了什麼我們也不知道！如果有開會的話，為什麼公開的會議紀錄會停留在2023年呢？","另外，我還有注意到，在第3次會議紀錄裡面，出席的小組委員共有10位，2位請假，有6位是請人代理來開會的，不是本人啦！主委，這個比例會不會太高？這個小組的委員是由主委聘任的，在主委上任後，小組的會議委員有沒有任期到期的？或者有積極去推動嗎？因為我們沒有看到啊！你講的我們沒有看到，你們怎麼開會的，在網站上都沒有相關紀錄，而且這樣比例的開會是有效的嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，剛剛講的這些會議紀錄，對於我們有開會但沒有將紀錄上傳網站的，我們會予以補足，很快的，我們回去後就會趕快補足。至於代理的部分，是會裡面的主管找人代理開會，外聘委員都有出席開會。"],["麥委員玉珍：你是說外聘的沒有代理、內聘的有代理，是這樣的意思嗎？如果內聘的找代理的話，大家都不用上班喔？要開會卻沒來，還找別人代理，這個叫內聘嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，可能處長有其他的業務，來代理的大部分都是科長以上啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：一年才開兩次會而已耶，還有其他的業務，所以表示這些都不重要囉？如果認為不重要，這個委員的身分他還要嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個我回去會再要求，跟委員報告，我們回去會要求不可以這樣都是代理的。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊，不管是外聘還是內聘都不應該是用代理的，我們這個小組的第3次會議出席10人，2位請假，其中6位代理，這個小組會議後續是沒有開會還是有開會，開會的效率如何也不敢放在網站上，這個真的讓我們覺得擔憂啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以根據這樣的要點規定，就算來不及派任，還有續派的方式，或是前任委員續聘，所以小組會議應該要按照規定的時間去開會。","今年審查預算時，我也注意到我們原民會不管是編列預算計畫還是政策推動上，都經常讓人覺得原民會相當消極敷衍、不認真，所以我們覺得，就像剛才你說的，連內聘都不把這個當一回事。這個小組是為了配合行政院的人權保障，蒐集督導原住民族群的司法人權、種族歧視等爭議案件，我覺得是非常重要的一件事情，希望原民會要更積極，才能真正讓原住民朋友的權益被保障。因為這是人權委員會，若開得「離離落落」，我們的人權在哪裡啊？所以就這個部分，希望主委真的要重視。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：第二個想要請問一下今天的議程，憲法法庭在111年宣判「原住民身分法」違憲後，依法在3年內要完成修法或另立特別法，今年10月就是期限。","原民會在5月的業務報告中說要「務實推動原住民族法制體系」，你們的報告上也寫，從113年開始辦了9場意見徵詢會議，請問會議中有多少是現有原住民族的代表？還有有多少真正來自平埔族群的族人參與？若以目前掌握的人數來算，這次會議徵詢的族人占全體多少比例？這些內容我們都沒有看到，我們希望真的要聽大家的意見，讓大家參與，而不是用講的，所以我們希望能夠真正聽大家的意見。有多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們所有座談會全部的會議紀錄也會在網站上呈現，而且我親自去主持的，一定是平埔原住民的族人來參加，當然有一些場次人比較多，比如說像臺南有到七、八十個人，至少七、八十個人來，最少都超過五十個人來參加。我們召開的不但有平埔原住民族群，原來的山地原住民跟平地原住民，我們也召開了5場，因為多少也要讓他們感受到，就是也要讓他們對平埔原住民族群身分法草案表達意見，在法案成立、發布之後對他們有什麼影響，我們也必須要做說明。所以，跟委員報告，我們會在網站上來呈現參加的人數還有內容也會補齊。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，還有他們群體的意見。因為目前已經有9個提出民族識別申請的其他屬南島語系民族之其他原住民族群，也看到一群學者共同發表聲明，呼籲主管機關應該要盡速依法核定並公告，避免延遲族群權益。如果有這麼多人去開會，為什麼在報告中只看到說「刻正研議辦理民族認定程序作業」，目前研議的情形如何？預計審查時間需要多長？如果明確的話，為什麼還有人再來陳情？實務的推動不只是法規的訂定而已，更關乎到整體政策與資源排擠或重新分配的問題。","請教主委，目前原民會掌握的平埔族群人口數大約是多少？未來增加了其他族群類別後，勢必原民會現有的配置資源會不敷使用，是否已有估算人數向行政院爭取足額預算？平埔族群未來經特別法認定族群並公告取得身分後，是否可以直接適用原住民族基本法？有無銜接適用的問題？這些都是到目前為止，我們在你的報告中沒有看到的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，當然我們現在在盤點，最重要的是這個法，這個法過了之後我們立刻就做後面的這些工作，當然我們已經都準備好了。"],["麥委員玉珍：準備好了？至今快要3年了，準備了什麼，準備那麼久還沒準備好，我們到今天的報告也沒看到。所以我們希望，剛才我們鄭委員也有說，目前有區分山地原住民、平地原住民，未來新增平埔族群後，如何落實在政治參與上不論何種族群都能平等參與？原民會是否有針對平埔族群規劃具體的社會福利、教育扶助或文化傳承鼓勵方案？這個部分因為已經快3年了，所以現在排入議程，但是我們看到報告裡面都沒有，所以你說準備好了，這好到一、好到二、好到好？這個我們就沒有看到啊。所以剛剛討論的這些議題，如果我們原民會內部都有討論，希望你真的拿出來讓大家覺得你們不是散漫的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：針對憲法法庭的宣判以及要求在3年內完成修法或另立特別法一定要真正的落實，不要等召委排案了你還拿不出東西。明明拿不出東西，你還說有、有、有，我們就是看不到啊！所以我們希望針對我們原住民的需求，還有不同族群的權利，請主委用心一點啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們有一些會議資料等等，會後是不是讓我們補充一份給麥委員，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，就拜託一下，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","最後請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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而不是在那邊爭執 好不好我們可以明確的往前是不是這樣好我們可以嗎可以 可以我們進入這個條文的實質審查的時候再來因為你都沒有聲音不好啊 還要有記錄謝謝啊 好 謝謝好 蔡責任蔡責任加油加油"},{"start":563.14,"end":563.604,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員（10時45分）：Nga'ay ho！"],["曾主任委員智勇：Nga'ay ho！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：Masalu！Malimali！"],["曾主任委員智勇：Masalu！"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：地方制度法第三十八條本來是採總額制，即原住民議員名額本來是在總額之內，我們去年已經修正為總額之外了！在修正地方制度法後，增加平埔原住民的議員名額就很容易了，這部分我們要說出來，讓平埔原住民知道我們是真正在為他們爭取權益，這樣就不需要在是否適用原住民族基本法上牽扯，就直接制定平埔原住民族群基本法，這才是更快的方法，而不是在那邊爭執，好不好？如此我們才可以明確地往前，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以、可以，在進入條文的實質審查時再來討論。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為你都沒有出聲，這樣不好，我們要有紀錄。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：sa'icelen，加油。"],["曾主任委員智勇：sa'icelen，加油。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文；第四案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-30","start_time":"2025-06-30T10:38:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-30T10:44:52+08:00","duration":371,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.28409375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":6.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.578468750000001,"end":7.1353437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":21.242843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.54659375,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.14784375,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.244093750000005,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.97971875,"end":58.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.17784375,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.24846875,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.12971875000001,"end":70.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.24346875,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.60596875,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.87096875,"end":80.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.84534375,"end":81.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.31346875,"end":85.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.04284375,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.67971875,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.70471875000001,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.10096875,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.71534375,"end":103.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.77846875,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.78221875000001,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.26721875000001,"end":109.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.90784375000001,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.19471875,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.38034375000001,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.88221875,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.04221875,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.49346875,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.73346875000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.03721875000001,"end":122.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.62346875,"end":123.64034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.64034375000001,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.75284375,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.20721875,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.37471875,"end":154.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.70721875,"end":163.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.14034375,"end":164.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.72659375,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.24096875,"end":176.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.07534375,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.32409375,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.29346875000002,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.72346875000002,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.04784375,"end":195.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.66284375,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.16909375,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.46846875,"end":214.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.81596875000002,"end":219.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":226.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.45971875,"end":227.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.70846875,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.14284375000003,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.15909375,"end":245.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.55409375000002,"end":245.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.81534375,"end":262.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.79159375,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.41596875,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.93909375000004,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.95159375000003,"end":266.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.47471875,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.42784375,"end":268.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.23784375,"end":274.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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曾志勇主委有請主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實"},{"start":33.11,"end":50.161,"text":"就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏啊怎麼樣來做掌握"},{"start":51.261,"end":78.211,"text":"這有一個數據來講就是我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補員 平補組預估人數這各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬這人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說"},{"start":79.731,"end":98.956,"text":"現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點"},{"start":100.953,"end":115.14,"text":"有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續"},{"start":116.221,"end":135.645,"text":"且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦"},{"start":143.647,"end":169.899,"text":"還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下"},{"start":170.738,"end":196.258,"text":"兩個都有啊 要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口民部只有九十八萬人嘛然後有 這其中有人會在乎有民族認同 有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁 你釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛 對啊但是有的他是"},{"start":197.612,"end":221.79,"text":"並沒有註記 有一些 甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了 或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的 還什麼的 或者是塗黑的嘛對對對 這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起 這叫交集嘛 對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起 其中有一項符合都算 那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個"},{"start":223.188,"end":250.301,"text":"都要符合那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下各位報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的"},{"start":251.261,"end":262.807,"text":"這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的"},{"start":265.448,"end":293.546,"text":"你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情欸因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啦沒有我再給你補充說明一下啦再跟委員報告所謂的"},{"start":294.5,"end":315.929,"text":"大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的"},{"start":316.79,"end":336.025,"text":"那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多"},{"start":337.446,"end":350.151,"text":"好那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件的多少人大概是多少120你來講一下"},{"start":356.704,"end":369.595,"text":"報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人"},{"start":371.138,"end":392.137,"text":"我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人"},{"start":393.098,"end":414.417,"text":"因為他是要一組一組一組的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛對那西賴雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好"},{"start":416.84,"end":438.542,"text":"我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛"},{"start":439.022,"end":467.131,"text":"那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎"},{"start":468.516,"end":477.298,"text":"你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了"},{"start":479.073,"end":506.171,"text":"我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億"},{"start":507.492,"end":534.702,"text":"當然要再增加11億嘛對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位就好像講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以"},{"start":536.944,"end":538.088,"text":"可以做是这样的"},{"start":538.601,"end":567.051,"text":"那所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十一億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是研民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛"},{"start":567.967,"end":597.254,"text":"就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平永安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊"},{"start":597.694,"end":622.354,"text":"然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛 對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間沒關係 我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望 第一個 人數的數字要明確第二個 投入的資源要明確第三 其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說 我憑普足加入之後他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會 你要做好心理準備捏"},{"start":623.115,"end":633.122,"text":"對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講的要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時27分）謝謝主席，有請曾智勇主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你已經到了，很好，謝謝。主委辛苦了！我們今天討論平埔原住民族群身分法草案的審查，有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清，因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求，要不然你就修原住民身分法，要不然你就訂特別法，看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法。但沒有關係，不管你是要修身分法或者是特別法的方式，為因應保障平埔原住民族群的權益，當然就會讓現行的政策、資源等等有一些改變跟差異。所以我希望原民會針對這樣子的一些改變跟差異，能夠有比較清楚的回答，這樣大家才會知道要怎麼樣掌握後面的節奏。","有一個數據，我們現在2025年5月法定原住民，也就是山原加平原是61.8萬人，但平埔族預估人數各種說法都有，有的說一、二十萬，有的說到98.1萬，人的數量會影響政策資源的投入，包含政策時間的安排，這我想主委不會反對。我想請問一下，因為按照你現在草案裡面，你講說第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本，其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為「熟」或者是「平」，就是那時候的稱謂熟番或是平埔族。以你們目前的掌握，戶口名簿上有這樣註記的，大概有多少人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是九十八萬多一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：有註記的就是九十八萬多一點？所以98萬這個數字是從這裡來的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。然後你後面又講其他條件，也就是要釋明其所屬民族語言、習俗、傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續，且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同者，對不對？因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿，再來有一些主動的要件，比如說有共同文化，大家有共同認同，對不對？這是主觀要件，後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集，後面這兩個要件算進去，大概會是多少人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就會比較多，大概就是你所講的，恐怕會增加到120萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：還會比那個更多？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：是取交集還是取聯集？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望平埔原住民身分的認定，他們一定要有傳統的習俗、文化跟語言，還有必須要有對這個族群的認同。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是有文化而且認同，這是一塊；有戶口名簿，這是一塊。對不對？是這全部都算，還是要兩個都有才算？我們釐清一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：要兩個都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：要兩個都有才算，那怎麼會變成120萬人？有戶口名簿只有98萬人，這其中有人有民族認同、有文化傳承，應該是占全部人的一部分，這個數字應該會變小。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，我跟你講……"],["牛委員煦庭：你釐清一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有註記的是98萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！98萬。"],["曾主任委員智勇：但是有的並沒有註記，有一些甚至像南投那邊有很多他們的戶籍……"],["牛委員煦庭：它可能已經不見了，或者是什麼了，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還塗黑的，還什麼的。"],["牛委員煦庭：或者是塗黑的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個部分又會加進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛剛說兩個都要一起，這叫交集，對不對？我剛剛問你，是交集還是聯集？就是說沒有一定要一起，其中有一項符合都算，叫聯集。到底是哪一個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：都要符合。"],["牛委員煦庭：都要符合？那叫交集，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果有戶口名簿的是98萬，然後又要認同這些，那數字怎麼會變120萬，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該會變少，對不對？請補充說明一下。"],["曾專門委員興中：跟委員報告，有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人，再加上沒有戶口名簿登記，但仍然是南島語系民族的這一些人，這個區塊就更大。當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同、有族群認同的人，我們認為會比98萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的。"],["牛委員煦庭：你這樣講跟剛剛的闡述和概念是不太一樣的事情，因為你說都要有，又要有戶口名簿的登記，且有族群認同等等，那怎麼會超過呢？好，即便有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記，有另外的一群人，對不對？我覺得我要有點跳脫，不好意思，今天可能要多一點時間，我再給你補充說明一下。"],["曾專門委員興中：再跟委員報告，所謂的大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史紀錄可稽，在本草案的第八條，指的是有「熟」、「平」註記以及其他政府公文書的註記，再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內，指明他們是南島語系民族，所以98萬的數據其實只是第一款的部分，如果第二款、第三款再加進去，就會超過98萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：你把第二款、第三款加進去，總共是多少人？剛剛主委講120萬，對不對？"],["曾專門委員興中：這個是有可能的，這是我們預估的。"],["牛委員煦庭：有可能，預估的沒關係，至少不要跟最後差太多就好，所以總共的母數大概是120萬，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：差不多。"],["牛委員煦庭：加上後面的條件，也就是釋明其所屬民族語言、習俗、傳統等文化特徵依然持續，且民族成員維持族群認同者，在這120萬人裡面符合後面要件的有多少人？"],["曾專門委員興中：報告委員，後面的要件就要透過審議的機制瞭解結果再做確認。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦！有一個登記的時間，對不對？"],["曾專門委員興中：對，所以這個部分的話，就沒有辦法做比較精準、正確的推估，但是我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，以現在此時此刻，大概是多少人？"],["曾專門委員興中：我們目前在做的大概也只有西拉雅族，目前已經到了一個階段的成果，如果西拉雅族完成登記的話，以西拉雅族在中南部的分布狀況來看，西拉雅族大概可以增加到三、四十萬人左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，你跟我講現在，比如以今年來講，符合這樣條件的總共多少人？"],["曾專門委員興中：跟委員報告，因為是要一族、一族的來審，我們目前已經比較確定的是西拉雅族審查的結果……"],["牛委員煦庭：比較確定、比較顯性的。"],["曾專門委員興中：西拉雅族審查的結果，目前看起來還算明確，以臺南、高雄、屏東等地，有熟番註記者或是平埔註記者，大概可以到接近三十多萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：三十幾萬。我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題，就是因為第一個，認定標準明確，現在已經有若干清楚的認定標準了。認定標準之後，就是估計人數，為什麼要估計人數？因為人數決定接下來的資源。今天立了這個新的專法之後，政府當然就要挹注新的資源進來，不然就會造成很多現有原住民族委員擔心的所謂排擠效應。","在政府決定下多少資源之後，才能去思考合理的管理或照顧，及相關的政策模式要怎麼樣來安排，然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間，其實這是一環扣著一環來的。以現在來講，總母數可能有120萬，顯性短期內會符合所有認定要件的可能會有20萬到30萬左右，請問這個專法如果順利三讀通過之後，國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增的資源？主委，你心裡有個數字嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最起碼我們馬上要做的，就是語言文化的保存，這個一定要做，這個部分我們會裡面就可以來做了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在給主委一個很好的機會，因為你現在有一包預算好幾億，在做語言文化保存，未來可能短時間內，就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人。那增加30萬人，要不要多一點預算？我請教就這樣，但你心裡要有數字，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們現在心裡有數啦！光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助，如果直接適用的話，預算大概要增加到11億。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概要再增加11億，對不對？那你就講這個就好了嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字，因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算。你跟行政院長溝通了沒？行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在訂這個法的時候，也已經跟院長講，增加多少人，我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧族人，當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位，就剛剛講二、三十萬，也許11億我們就可以來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你是用二、三十萬的人數去要求11億的預算嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在院長對你的承諾是什麼？他有沒有一口答應、就是趕快做？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，院長說本來這個預算的增加，不是原民會的事，這是國家本來就是要照顧進來的族人。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然啊！但你要去申請，因為你是主管機關，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：當然就是我們要估算出來，看大概要做哪些，然後請求院裡面來協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：到底會不會明確的支援你？因為到了第4會期，這個會期馬上結束之後，可能因為憲判有時間規定，有時間壓力，我們一定要在10月前把它處理完，處理完之後，我們馬上就要編明年的預算，對不對？那你到底會增加多少？然後有沒有政府的保證支持？其實會關乎法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力。如果你沒有辦法保證政府會多給原住民更多的資源讓現在的山原跟平原很安心，到最後法案審查就很有可能會卡住，然後可能會造成更大的問題，對不對？","我們今天花質詢的時間，沒關係，後續還有法案審查時間，但是我們希望第一個，人數的數據要明確；第二個，投入的資源要明確；第三，到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論，也就是平埔族加入之後，他們可以立刻獲得什麼樣的保障？這些部分我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中，原住民族委員會要做好心理準備，要有這樣的政策調整，就像高金委員講的要有能力來處理。相關的資料今天詢答完之後，要再做詳細的補充，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛召委的質詢，也謝謝主委。","繼續請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","張智倫","蘇巧慧","丁學忠"],"page_start":137,"meetingDate":["2025-06-30"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平\n埔原住民族群身分法草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1146401_00003"}}},{"id":"162951","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162951","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b047677e7ec78609c4146214fbb4655ae3a86deb72054c9d613b3b430d254bb4272b109c97fcf25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:06:15 - 10:22:06","影片長度":"00:15:51","會議時間":"2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」。二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文；第四案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-30","start_time":"2025-06-30T10:06:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-30T10:22:06+08:00","duration":951,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.91221875,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.31721875,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.90346875,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.548468750000001,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.21409375,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.317218750000002,"end":35.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.805968750000005,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.580968750000004,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.111593750000004,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.21596875,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.84659375000001,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.39909375,"end":74.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.25971875,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.71471875,"end":89.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.35034375000001,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.70846875000001,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.97346875000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.67221875000001,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.96284375,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.39659375000001,"end":121.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.37909375000001,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.10409375,"end":163.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":167.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.10596875000002,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.18159375000002,"end":171.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.10534375,"end":190.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.56659375,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.07221875000002,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.89846875,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.93971875000003,"end":208.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.04471875000002,"end":212.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.95971875,"end":219.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.19909375,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.00471875000002,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.50659375,"end":225.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.47659375,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.59846875000002,"end":242.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.18284375000002,"end":247.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.02221875,"end":245.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.58721875,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.34221875000003,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.75034375,"end":297.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.30096875000004,"end":366.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.85534375000003,"end":367.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.87221875,"end":379.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.14909375,"end":387.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.68346875000003,"end":391.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.39596875,"end":400.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.99784375,"end":414.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.91971875,"end":446.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.72909375,"end":447.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.22659375,"end":451.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.44159375000004,"end":451.43721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.70721875000004,"end":456.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.61784375,"end":456.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.73596875000004,"end":456.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.87096875000003,"end":465.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.42659375000005,"end":468.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.73409375000006,"end":482.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.44909375000003,"end":487.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.62971875000005,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.69284375,"end":493.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.97909375,"end":496.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.88159375000004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辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法"},{"start":31.383,"end":49.844,"text":"那麼執政黨自己呢 不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的 我心裡面的感觸"},{"start":51.185,"end":73.794,"text":"那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了"},{"start":74.474,"end":91.896,"text":"二 明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三 針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案"},{"start":92.777,"end":107.368,"text":"真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎?真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎?"},{"start":108.729,"end":134.067,"text":"我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年圓明會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法"},{"start":134.767,"end":161.764,"text":"可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然"},{"start":163.425,"end":189.738,"text":"主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施"},{"start":190.658,"end":205.078,"text":"我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏"},{"start":206.219,"end":220.651,"text":"講白了就是一拖再拖這樣讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問跟委員報告我們是希望在三年內"},{"start":226.502,"end":242.297,"text":"能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用多三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣"},{"start":243.217,"end":263.534,"text":"好啦 我們拭目以待啦 我是非常懷疑啦因為呢 就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢 你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週 最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚 說什麼呢"},{"start":267.657,"end":296.726,"text":"原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會 諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法"},{"start":297.466,"end":312.324,"text":"自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任說法律沒有授權私有地不可以處理"},{"start":313.365,"end":316.767,"text":"我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理"},{"start":340.04,"end":366.425,"text":"我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎"},{"start":369.039,"end":378.884,"text":"我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案 他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地"},{"start":387.788,"end":414.107,"text":"我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而"},{"start":415.928,"end":419.83,"text":"我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權"},{"start":433.339,"end":447.36,"text":"現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎"},{"start":449.281,"end":467.466,"text":"我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週"},{"start":468.846,"end":487.026,"text":"我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委"},{"start":489.127,"end":500.943,"text":"6月底原住民族要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號你現在已經不到兩個月了吧"},{"start":502.284,"end":519.898,"text":"不到兩個月吧 我知道呢 原民會你們三月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢 行政院一直沒有正式回應您 對不對"},{"start":520.979,"end":523.841,"text":"黃國昌主席有質詢他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內就會提案請問主委這是真的嗎?您知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":544.378,"end":569.207,"text":"因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主計長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主計長說黃國昌召委"},{"start":573.035,"end":599.49,"text":"在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個"},{"start":600.973,"end":603.355,"text":"有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院"},{"start":607.979,"end":631.26,"text":"第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼"},{"start":632.645,"end":654.591,"text":"我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對"},{"start":656.021,"end":678.669,"text":"如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊"},{"start":679.589,"end":696.021,"text":"這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠推下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的"},{"start":696.681,"end":720.454,"text":"我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒你的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力"},{"start":721.374,"end":749.806,"text":"因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度"},{"start":751.135,"end":757.417,"text":"他的預算夠不夠 按照現在原名婚禮預算夠嗎你認為不夠對不對 你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有10萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部護證系統他們來協助我們給你了嗎 有答應了嗎目前還沒有 我們還在申請好 所以您看"},{"start":779.722,"end":797.24,"text":"光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎"},{"start":799.144,"end":825.325,"text":"有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的齁我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了齁就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛齁好所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面"},{"start":826.57,"end":843.002,"text":"負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會"},{"start":846.624,"end":865.009,"text":"從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等"},{"start":865.749,"end":883.919,"text":"又再等三年 一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案"},{"start":887.541,"end":906.404,"text":"所以希望 主委 這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為 園民會包括您一直以來都很認真 都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點 平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情"},{"start":907.245,"end":929.481,"text":"必須要行政院統籌第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地"},{"start":929.961,"end":951.365,"text":"要不然的話 原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話 會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告 休息三分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時6分）辛苦了，主委。今天我要感謝牛煦庭召委，這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族專法，我在立法院這麼長一段時間，只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案，從來沒有行政院版本，都是立法委員的版本，這是破天荒以來由行政院主動提出的原住民族專法。執政黨自己不願意把它優先處理，如果不是我一直拜託牛召委排案的話，我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員會裡面來順利審查，這是我第一個要講的我心裡面的感觸。","今天我們審查的這部平埔專法的立法，是因為憲判字第17號的判決，憲法法庭的判決有三大要求：第一個要求是三年之內修正「原住民身分法」或另訂特別法，期限是今年的10月27號，很快就要到了；二、明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身分登記；三、針對平埔族群的權利保障，要考慮其歷史背景與資源的分配，並且要以法律明定。但是我們今天看到的草案，真的有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎？真的有把當時做市長的賴清德，現在已經是總統的承諾放在這裡嗎？","我們再來看一下，不僅僅是賴清德，早在2016年的時候，蔡英文總統就公開承諾，他說：請尊重平埔族群自我認同權，要歸還原住民族的身分以及完整的民主權利。而去年原民會你們報告上也講會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身分法。可是現在的草案既沒有修原住民身分法，也沒有一次歸還身分跟權利，還要把平埔族群另立專法，把問題切割出去，這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊！所以我們看到有非常多平埔族族人抗議啊！","雖然主委您說開了很多場的會議，也跟大家說明了很多。但是我們要看一下，更誇張的是，第二十三條的條文寫說，政府還要再花三年來研擬保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等基本權利的配套措施。憲法判決已經是三年前的事了，政府花了三年才提出法案，結果具體的權利還要再拖三年，而這樣的立法節奏講白了就是一拖再拖，這要讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎？在這裡我要請問一下主委，三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們是希望在三年內能夠全部都來做到，但是有的法律其實不用到三年，我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了。當然我們是希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法律都能夠把它定好。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，我們拭目以待啦！我是非常懷疑啦！因為就連原基法已經明文保障的權利，其實你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人。就在上週最高行政法院112年度上字第487號判決講得非常清楚說：原基法第二十一條裡面，原住民族傳統領域的土地，包括公有地也包括私有地，原民會主委聽清楚了嗎？也看清楚了嗎？這個不是模糊地帶，這個是我們的法律明文規定啊！而且是最高行政法院已經說的，所以根本就不需要修法。","自從106年原住民族土地或部落範圍土地劃設辦法公布以來，原民會就配合行政院一再地推卸責任說：法律沒有授權，私有地不可以處理。我認為你們真的長期以來一直在誤導社會、誤導各部會，我認為這是惡意地詮釋法律，這也嚴重傷害到原住民族的土地權利，更可惡的是什麼？竟然有執政黨的立法委員，尤其是原住民的立法委員，刻意混淆視聽帶風向說：這個要修法才能夠處理。我認為這是站在殖民者的立場講話，為了政治的利益犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益，這讓我憤怒啊！明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了，再講一遍，原基法裡面第二十一條說的原住民族傳統領域土地，包括公有地也包括私有地。請問一下原民會，這還需要修法嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對個案的裁判，但是原民會針對傳統領域的劃設……"],["高金委員素梅：這不是個案，它已經明文規定的寫原住民的傳統領域，不僅包括公有地，也包括私有地啊！","好啦，我再說一下，其他部會更得寸進尺，像能源局在執政黨委員的要求之下草率推出地熱探勘指引，這個明目張膽地要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面，這也擺明了為開發業者護航，要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務。而我自己出身的地方和平區也陳情抗議，台電在傳統領域之內開發，居然用這是私有地為藉口，完全就不尊重部落，也漠視我們諮商同意權。現在法院已經判決出來了，請問主委，再講一遍，法院說原基法的第二十一條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地，您支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝……"],["高金委員素梅：您支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：中央、地方會一起來做通案性的檢討。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這就是我現在要告訴您的，我要請原民會立刻修正函釋，行文告訴各部會，就在上週法院的判決說原住民的傳統領域土地，不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。繼續我要問你最重要的問題，現在已經幾月了，主委？"],["曾主任委員智勇：6月底。"],["高金委員素梅：原住民族要發禁伐補償，大概是幾月份會發？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最快9月1號開始發放。"],["高金委員素梅：離現在已經不到兩個月了吧！我知道原民會3月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算，補足行政院少編的23.9億元的禁伐補償，可是行政院一直沒有正式回應您對不對？還沒有對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還繼續在爭取。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道嗎？上週四的時候，黃國昌主席有質詢副主計長，副主計長已經公開在立法院回應他：一、兩個月之內就會提案。請問主委這是真的嗎？您知道這件事情嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為我們很早就辦，就希望能夠……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，你3月啊！所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊！所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席質詢的時候，一直逼問之下，副主計長才告訴他：這一、兩個月之內就會提案。所以主委，這是我提醒您的，這也是我告訴您的，我希望您趕快跟主計長說，黃國昌召委在這邊質詢，副主計長已經答應他一、兩個月之內會提案，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體交代，如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算，把不足的23.9億禁伐補償給原住民的話，這會造成很大的困擾。","第一個，有人說，如果領不到一公頃6萬塊，他就會離開立法院。第二個，行政院卓榮泰院長親自在朝野協商的時候，行政院簽名、簽字寫說要用追加預算，這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾，如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話，那麼我們族人還要相信誰、我們國人還要相信誰？第三個，我要提醒您，如果不是用追加預算，而是用我們的綜合發展基金的話，這件事情茲事體大，為什麼？主委，你清楚知道綜合發展基金已經要破產了，對不對？如果在要破產的狀況，還要原民會去找出這23.9億，無非就要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做，甚至要讓主委您自己擠破頭，找出23.9億來補足這個缺口，這個委屈，原民會不能夠吞下去；這個委屈，我們全國原住民的族人也不能夠吞下去，因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案，必須要用公務預算來補，這是非常清楚的，我們行政院、我們國家不能夠帶頭違法，已經違法過一次了，不能夠再有第二次。主委，我在這裡衷心的提醒你，這非常的重要，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：最後，我要再提醒你的是，我認為原民會你們真的非常努力了，但是我要坦白講，你們並沒有能力，為什麼？決策權全部都在行政院。我再講一下，目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡？不是只有原民會，主委，您知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：還有文化部、教育部、衛福部、經濟部等等不同的部會，包括最重要的，未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後，它的選舉制度、它的預算夠不夠？你認為按照現在原民會的預算夠嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不夠。"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛一直告訴我們說，第一次登記可能會有10萬人，光是登記這個費用就要錢，請問一下，行政院有給你嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個登記，當然我們也會拜託內政部戶政系統他們來協助我們。"],["高金委員素梅：給你了嗎？有答應了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前還沒有，我們還在爭取。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以你看，不管是賴清德、不管是蔡英文，嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利，要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭，但該面對的問題總是沒有面對，所以請問原民會，你有整合協調的能力嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有一些我們該拜託的，我們當然會拜託其他部會，但是該我們做的，我們儘量希望都已經準備好了，就是我們馬上要成立審議會要審他們的民族別，這個我們也都進入狀況……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，這是你能做的，但是我剛剛說得很清楚，您不能做的非常多，對吧？誠實的說嘛！所以我認為行政院必須要出面負起這個責任，因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見、因為這是賴清德當時做臺南市長的時候，答應平埔族人的。所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情，就必須要出面負起全責，統籌協調各部會，從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償平埔族群權利保障體系，不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布，不要一等又再等3年，一直再拖延下去。平埔族群的基本權利，還有法律地位，不能夠再被推來推去，無限期延後，所以今天我要求原民會一週內提出具體的書面回應，我會提這個書面草案。主委，這件事情很嚴重，我剛剛替您說了很多話，我認為原民會包括您一直以來都很認真、很努力，但是你們真的都沒有決策能力。","今天很重要的幾點：第一點，平埔族群這些回復權利，不是你原民會一個人的事情，必須要行政院統籌。第二件事情，原住民族的禁伐補償要依法用公務預算，公務預算在今年沒有補足的，麻煩用追加預算，這也是卓榮泰說的承諾，好不好？第三個，你要行文給各部會，我們傳統領域的土地，不是只有公有土地，包括私有地，要不然的話，原民會要處理的案子就會非常非常的多，我們人力已經不足了，再處理這些事情的話，會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：請主委擔起這個責任來，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員。","按剛剛宣告，休息3分鐘。","休息（10時22分）","繼續開會（10時27分）"],["主席（高金委員素梅代）：我們繼續開會。","請牛煦庭召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","張智倫","蘇巧慧","丁學忠"],"page_start":137,"meetingDate":["2025-06-30"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平\n埔原住民族群身分法草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1146401_00003"}}},{"id":"162950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b047677e7ec786991072f12174d2ea5ae3a86deb72054c9d613b3b430d254b558e52f1102efb015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:58:16 - 10:06:08","影片長度":"00:07:52","會議時間":"2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」。二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文；第四案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-30","start_time":"2025-06-30T09:58:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-30T10:06:08+08:00","duration":472,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.31784375,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.19034375,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.764093750000001,"end":6.7809687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.865343750000001,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.945343750000001,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.78409375,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.404093750000001,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.42096875,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.09596875,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.14659375,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.07721875,"end":28.887218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.49471875,"end":31.215968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.215968750000002,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.41409375,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.27034375,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.62471875,"end":36.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.17721875,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.44909375,"end":54.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.41909375,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.92534375,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.77721875,"end":58.907843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.81909375,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.74721875,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.45346875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.97659375,"end":132.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.44471875000002,"end":139.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.80659375000002,"end":142.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":145.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.61159375,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.35409375,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.53534375,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.60659375,"end":155.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.71971875,"end":161.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.03971875000002,"end":168.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.48971875,"end":176.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.30721875,"end":179.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.34471875,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.32346875000002,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.02721875,"end":187.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.56284375,"end":189.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.80721875,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.13159375,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.85221875000002,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.11721875,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.54284375,"end":207.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.64409375000002,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.71096875,"end":233.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.74846875,"end":215.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.64596875,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.64846875,"end":233.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.10409375,"end":235.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.77471875,"end":244.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.36034375000003,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.34284375000001,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.67971875,"end":255.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.81846875000002,"end":253.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.13034375,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.97409375,"end":257.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.52659375,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.39971875000003,"end":269.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.88346875,"end":271.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.52846875,"end":284.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.24846875000003,"end":302.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.14159375,"end":291.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.83596875,"end":305.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委辛苦了 到備訓台了主委早 委員好主委 剛剛這個帳錄那個委員在問您的時候 您說平埔族有十個族群 請問是哪十個譬如說希拉雅啦 還有喀哈烏啦 巴塞啦還有道卡斯啦 大五龍喔還有巴布拉 還有馬卡道族還有這個巴布薩 還有凱達格蘭至少這九個"},{"start":30.294,"end":47.44,"text":"對嗎?你剛講10個還有一個紅咬,紅咬張畫的紅咬好,我們看一下這平埔族,因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了9個啦所以這邊的話,您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去?所以我想其實剛剛蛤?嘎哈烏沒有放進去"},{"start":59.844,"end":85.769,"text":"就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛"},{"start":86.383,"end":94.416,"text":"那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民族"},{"start":94.932,"end":121.716,"text":"及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之"},{"start":122.336,"end":146.579,"text":"那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們"},{"start":147.617,"end":167.579,"text":"自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法"},{"start":169.737,"end":198.195,"text":"過去他們欠缺 尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說讓他們的潛力更能夠更好 更周圍這樣子好 那請問一下主委我們現在平埔族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口"},{"start":199.408,"end":219.519,"text":"這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族的權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元"},{"start":221.8,"end":250.524,"text":"是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好 更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好 那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記"},{"start":251.224,"end":270.931,"text":"當然明年的預算當然就是必須那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預租來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算"},{"start":272.931,"end":294.888,"text":"這個我想預算的部分原民會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以今天我們大家其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要正名可是你原有的原民的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底會不會登記其實不是你能夠預測的"},{"start":300.112,"end":323.898,"text":"萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦"},{"start":324.938,"end":341.521,"text":"可以嗎主委我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬勒"},{"start":343.253,"end":365.468,"text":"所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據嘛你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條件第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障"},{"start":365.808,"end":379.033,"text":"好 如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告齁"},{"start":381.99,"end":394.376,"text":"這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的地位一定嘛 因為你剛剛講的98萬人比60萬人還多這個修憲 考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易啦那所以呢所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼"},{"start":407.702,"end":425.138,"text":"我們能做的先做 譬如說以語言先救 文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎 相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做"},{"start":427.16,"end":443.41,"text":"因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是要有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實"},{"start":456.818,"end":466.801,"text":"聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補署我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時58分）謝謝主席，我們請……曾主委已經到備詢台了。"],["主席：曾主委辛苦了。"],["許委員宇甄：主委早。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，剛剛張宏陸委員問您的時候，您說平埔族有10個族群，請問是哪10個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：比如西拉雅族、噶哈巫族、巴宰族、道卡斯族、大武壠族、拍瀑拉族、馬卡道族、巴布薩族還有凱達格蘭族，至少這9個。"],["許委員宇甄：對，你剛剛講10個。"],["曾主任委員智勇：還有一個洪雅，彰化的洪雅族。"],["許委員宇甄：好。我們看一下這些平埔族，我有做了一個表格，不過我這邊做了9個，所以這邊您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去？"],["曾主任委員智勇：噶哈巫族沒有放進去。"],["許委員宇甄：就是少一個嘛，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，少一個。"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以剛剛張宏陸委員也特別講到，事實上是不是只有真的這10個而已，還是還會有更多？我們大概要討論的就是，平埔族現在到底有多少族群、有多少的人口？這可能都是我們要討論的重點。","我們可以看到現在院版有一個平埔原住民族群身分法的草案，我們可以看到，依據憲判字第17號判決的判決主文清楚地指出，憲法增修條文第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段規定所保障之原住民族，國家應該維護他的語言跟文化。我們可以看到，貴會的報告其實是引用黃大法官等協同意見書的說法，認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠事項於取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用，而另以法律訂定之。所以主委的意思是，這樣的立法是不是已經預設平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，現在的山原、平原當然有目前在運作的權益，但是平埔原住民族人一直以為他們現在一進來馬上就適用山原跟平原，其實平埔原住民自己多年來所遭遇到的損失有時候是遠遠超過山原跟平原，當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民基本法……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源、更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎？如果照你剛剛這段話的說法。"],["曾主任委員智勇：過去他們欠缺……尤其他們的語言、文化流失特別嚴重，當然我們就要用比較特別的方式，不是適用現在的原住民基本法，更要用另外的專法讓他們的權利能夠更好、更周延。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下主委，我們現在的平埔族到底是多少人口？"],["曾主任委員智勇：依據內政部的統計，大概會有98萬的人口。"],["許委員宇甄：對，這也是你在5月22日備詢時提到的，平埔族有98萬人，而我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人。依你剛剛提到的，聽起來好像是平埔族的權益、資源應該要更多，因為他們過去犧牲太多？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣的話，我們以原住民今年現有的年度預算122億元來看，共有61萬人，如果把平埔族的98萬人都納入的話，請問一下主委，你有沒有初步預估每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們講98萬不是今年年底一下子就98萬，登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬。"],["許委員宇甄：好，如果登記了一半？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在我們正在盤整，我們假設到今年年底有10萬人來登記，明年的預算當然就是……"],["許委員宇甄：你預期10萬人，如果一次來了50萬人，那你的預算要怎麼辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會。我跟委員報告，這個預算我們要跟行政院報告，國家的資源當然就必須要更多來挹注、來照顧。"],["許委員宇甄：那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我想預算的部分，原民會的預算就那麼多，不可能說平埔原住民族人進來之後，我們的預算還是那麼多，這樣沒有辦法照顧。"],["許委員宇甄：所以今天我們大家比較質疑的是，現在平埔族要正名，可是你們原有的原民預算就這麼多，那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些預算進來？而且就像你剛剛講的，要由大家來登記，到底有多少人會登記其實不是你能夠預測的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我就跟你講，萬一98萬人當中因為你們宣導太好了、福利更好，所以可能一半的人都來登記，那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多，理論上是不可能，因為你會排擠到其他預算，所以我覺得這個你們應該都要先設想好，不是現在的法丟出來之後，我們就先讓法案通過，之後再來慢慢想這些問題，應該要超前部署、應該要先了解！可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。我們已經在盤點，如果年底有10萬人來登記平埔原住民族，我們的……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，你一直講10萬人，我不曉得這個依據怎麼來，如果變20萬呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對啊。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我的意思是，你一定要有一個依據嘛，你一直講10萬一定有你的依據，但那個依據要讓大家知道，你的推估是不是可行的、推估是不是正確的？","再來，除了剛剛講的資源之外，還有一個是屬於政治的權利，就是憲法增修條例第四條規定平原跟山原各三人的立委保障，如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身分，到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民、山地原住民，還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢？目前你們有沒有什麼規劃？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，山原、平原的席次是憲法規定的，將來平埔原住民族說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的立委……"],["許委員宇甄：一定嘛、一定會，你剛剛講的98萬人比61萬人還多。"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個要修憲！考慮到修憲的現實，修憲沒有那麼容易……"],["許委員宇甄：所以呢？你現在把平埔族正名完之後，然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人、修憲更困難，那平埔族正名的意義是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們能做的先做，譬如說語言先救、文化先救，而一下子要修憲的話沒有辦法！"],["許委員宇甄：那你覺得現在爭取平埔族權益的這些人，他們只希望文化先做、相關的先做嗎？他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：其他的我們3年內會修法來做，因為我們不可能一次全部都到位。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想要提醒你的是，當然我們都知道不可能一步到位，但是我覺得你們原民會還是應該要有充分的準備，也就是相關可能遇到的，像我剛剛講的政治權利、生活權利、身分認定跟財務負擔，其實都是你們必須要整體考量的，否則你貿然推動下去、過了這個法之後，後續的應該要怎麼處理？其實聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個完整的配套，所以還是希望原民會要有完整的配套，再來談平埔族草案的通過，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","下一位請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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我想我們也會很快的就跟上能做的我們就先做啦 東北這個不容易啦 但是就是當然我們還是要先做不是啦 不是啦 主委 我知道 這些我都知道啦我是說他要登記的時候 可能一下子湧了好幾萬人要來登記那我們能不能負擔這一個啦上次我的質詢 大概是這個方向嘛"},{"start":154.426,"end":165.77,"text":"那我覺得啦你們還是要及早準備啦尤其要跟地方要準備啦尤其是我不知道主委你說平埔族身份的認定啦齁其實齁"},{"start":170.216,"end":194.419,"text":"啊 有一句話啦齁有當三公 沒當三媽啦齁那其實啊 很多人搞不好身上都有頻譜逐流的血液喔這個我們預估大概是一百萬對不對 嗯但有可能更多啊 對不對這個所以你們啊 這個很多的啊 必須還是及早準備啦齁另外啊齁"},{"start":196.235,"end":219.959,"text":"我們院版12條裡面有寫一個這個登記期間的限制登記期間的限制就是5年嘛,剛剛也有人講,必要時再延長5年主委你覺得這一個5加5這樣子你覺得有沒有時間夠不夠,會不會太短"},{"start":222.085,"end":229.201,"text":"這個跟委員報告我們跟平埔族的族人就是說北中南還有到東部做黨的時候他們也認為"},{"start":230.703,"end":259.602,"text":"是不是五年太短是可不可以五年過了是不是再延長或者是有人是講是不是可以定二十年那這個我想我們也多尊重我們現在回來之後也在想是不是跟將來進入這個法條的審查是不是也跟大院委員來做一個請教就是說是怎麼樣是不是一定要二十年嗎還是十五年還是到了以後再來延也都可以"},{"start":261.723,"end":273.695,"text":"其實我為什麼會提這個問題有判例 如果你這樣子給他限制他的他的身份是與生俱來的如果用年限來這樣子的話會不會有違憲的問題會違憲的問題嗎"},{"start":287.15,"end":302.412,"text":"你們應該去研究一下這個是會不會因為他的身份本來就是與生俱來的啊對不對那我請教一下如果說剛好5加50年對不對"},{"start":304.952,"end":329.835,"text":"他剛好人都在國外或什麼的他來不及回來或他回來的時候發現他有這個身份那他要登記我們跟他講說完全不行這個狀況也有可能會出現所以我覺得我們這個真的是要再討論那如果說以我們現在採取登記制"},{"start":332.501,"end":354.649,"text":"會不會說來比如說現在有一個葛馬蘭族但會不會再出現他新取得的叫做葛馬蘭平埔族會不會有這個情況出現我跟委員報告不要說平埔原住民你現在山地原住民也有排灣族他是山地原住民他也是平地原住民"},{"start":355.475,"end":378.799,"text":"有啊一樣這個其實現在就有了所以那麼你是譬如說撒基拉亞現在是平地原住民也有可能我們平埔原住民裡面也會有撒基拉亞族對啊對啊所以主委你很清楚我現在所說的問題那所以未來我們台灣的原住民族會不會超過三四十族一個"},{"start":384.437,"end":408.513,"text":"不會了應該16再加現在平埔最少是可能最多是10個組16加2626不會再我想來平埔組現在10個大概10個大概10個那我們現在目前的本來就有的大概就16組對對不對那我剛剛跟你所說的會不會出現一個這個"},{"start":411.895,"end":427.499,"text":"葛瑪蘭的平埔族你也說有可能啊對不對所以你光平埔族裡面也有可能有16個他認為他是比如說葛瑪蘭的平埔族或什麼等等的會不會有這種情況出現會啊會啊因為他又是葛瑪蘭嘛他是平原對啊"},{"start":438.971,"end":466.416,"text":"不是我跟你講很多情況都可能發生啦主委你知道我在說什麼所以未來台灣的這個原住民族絕對不是像你們剛說的10族然後再加16族26族也有可能會更多這個我都覺得啦我們在這個立法的過程或什麼我們都要必須要去考量啦因為從以前到現在"},{"start":468.786,"end":496.264,"text":"通婚太多了啦對不對你不能限定他說他只有一個啊對不對這通婚那麼多啊尤其是平埔族或什麼都有他的各我們現在講的平埔族的始祖裡面有很多都有不同的文化啊對不對他連講一講他的文化是都不一樣的啊對不對所以我說的那種情況有可能會再出現很多族啊對不對我們要提早因應啦好不好好謝謝"},{"start":500.675,"end":501.418,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿召委的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時49分）我請主委。"],["主席：曾主委，有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我記得上次我有質詢對於平埔族的登記，有很多很複雜的工作，從我上次質詢到現在，時間也說長不長，但我不知道我質詢完之後，後續的準備工作你們進行得如何？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這個法案我們提出並送到大院來之後，我們去年就已經開了9場座談會，這個月北、中、南我們就各開了1場，是由我親自來主持，我親自來面對我們的平埔族人，我們也整理了他們主要的意見，有很多也是希望就直接加入原住民的身分法，這個也有；但也有部分的人並不盡然完全適用原住民族基本法，是不是還要再外加一些更保障他們的，這些都有，我們都有整理。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，很明顯的，如果可以開放登記，一開始開放登記，地方的有的是原民局、有的是什麼的，他們的人力夠不夠？很多平埔族人要來登記，這個部分中央到底是否有能力去承擔？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，一開始我們主要是先解決認定原住民族的部分，就是認定他是平埔族，然後再認定他個人身分，先做身分的登記，後續的權利義務我想我們也會很快就跟上，能做的我們就先做，當然這個不容易啦，但我們還是要先做。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦、不是啦，主委，這些我都知道啦，我是說開放登記的時候，可能一下子湧了好幾萬人要來登記，我們能不能負擔這部分？上次我的質詢大概是這個方向嘛。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得你們還是要及早準備，尤其跟地方都要一起準備。主委，你說平埔族身分的認定，有一句話說「有唐山公，無唐山媽」，其實很多人身上搞不好都流有平埔族的血液，我們預估大概是100萬，但有可能更多啊，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以你們還是必須要及早準備。另外院版第十二條裡面有寫到一個登記期間的限制，就是5年，剛剛也有人講，必要時再延長5年，主委，你覺得這個5加5的時間夠不夠？會不會太短？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們到北中南跟平埔族的族人座談時，他們也認為5年是不是太短，可不可以5年過了再延長，或是有人講是不是可以定20年，這個我想我們也都尊重，我們回來之後也在想，將來進入法條的實質審查時，也跟大院委員來請教，是不是一定要20年，還是15年，還是到了以後再來延也都可以。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，主委，其實我為什麼會提這個問題你知道嗎？有判例，如果你這樣子給他限制，他的身分是與生俱來的，如果用年限來限制的話，會不會有違憲的問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們再來討論。"],["張委員宏陸：你們應該去研究一下這個會不會違憲，因為他的身分就是與生俱來的啊，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：如果定為5加5共10年，結果他剛好人都在國外或什麼的，來不及回來，或回來的時候發現他有這個身分，那他要登記，我們卻只能跟他說完全不行，這個狀況也有可能會出現喔，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我覺得這個真的是要再討論啦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["張委員宏陸：如果說以我們現在採取登記制，比如現在有一個噶瑪蘭族，但會不會出現新取得的身分叫做噶瑪蘭平埔族，會不會有這個情況出現？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，不要說平埔原住民，現在山地原住民，也有排灣族是山地原住民，但也有平地原住民是排灣族的，有啊，一樣，這個其實現在就有了，譬如說撒奇萊雅族現在是平地原住民，也有可能在平埔原住民裡面也有撒奇萊雅族。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，所以主委你很清楚我現在所說的問題啦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以未來我們臺灣的原住民族會不會超過3、40族？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會，現在平埔最多是10個族，16加10是26，我想不會再……"],["張委員宏陸：平埔族現在大概10個。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，大概10個。"],["張委員宏陸：目前本來就有的是16族，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：誠如我剛剛跟你說的，會不會出現一個噶瑪蘭的平埔族？你也說有可能，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["張委員宏陸：所以光平埔族裡面也有可能有16個他認為自己是噶瑪蘭平埔族或其他等等的，會不會有這種情況出現？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會啊！"],["張委員宏陸：會啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為他又是噶瑪蘭嘛，他是平原，對啊。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我跟你講，很多情況都可能發生啦！主委，你知道我在說什麼。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以未來臺灣的原住民族絕對不是像你們剛剛說的10族再加16族為26族，也有可能會更多，這方面我覺得我們在立法的過程都必須要去考量，因為從以前到現在通婚太多了，對不對？你不能只限定他只有一個，對不對？通婚那麼多啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們現在所講的平埔族10族裡面，有很多都有不同的文化，對不對？他們的文化都是不一樣的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我說的那一種情況是有可能會再出現很多族，對不對？我們要提早因應，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委的質詢。","報告委員會，我們在高金素梅委員質詢完之後休息3分鐘。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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個遺憾就讓我們其實也理解到當時因為歷史的因素戶籍登記的因素那有山園有平原但是其實我們應該要更著重更重視的應該是各族各族群各族各民族"},{"start":54.039,"end":82.873,"text":"才是我們要加強這是這二十多年來的政府一直在努力的方向加強各族所以也是歷史的因素啦平埔族當時並沒有被政府所納入應該也是台灣原住民族啦那所以以廣義的台灣原住民族來講那其實你用現在的分法16族"},{"start":84.147,"end":110.775,"text":"其實也有學者認為這是狹義那應該把平埔族人也放入原住民族那是我們今天要討論的方向那有了這個方向之後我們才可以接下來繼續的來討論那過去因為歷史因素有三地原住民、平地原住民那也受原住民基本法的一些對於他們的文化、生活等等的一些保障"},{"start":111.496,"end":133.537,"text":"那我們也同意那社會也越來越進步但是我們現在來討論的是平普族的相關的文化權益的保障而且這個也已經一開始就講得很清楚了主委你認為他不應該在原住民基本法的框架裡而用另外一個保護或者是"},{"start":135.007,"end":152.84,"text":"對於他的文化這些基本的這些保護有一個另外一套的一個立法這基本的精神我們先講清楚但是我們接下來就要務實啦三立原住民、平立原住民到目前為止總人數大約61萬"},{"start":157.007,"end":175.052,"text":"主委你在上一個會期來這裡回應的時候回答的時候你說平地原住民平埔族人大概有多少98萬人98萬人你認為如果我們現在開始來登記以你的版本是3年嗎就是對5年那我跟委員報告說"},{"start":181.704,"end":198.583,"text":"登記齁 我們預估啦 研判啦不會說一下子登記就一下子就到98萬人啦這是一定 因為就好像我們過去山地跟平地原住民的登記也不是一下子就到今天的這個人數也許 也許到今年年底可能不到10萬"},{"start":200.612,"end":223.532,"text":"我預估啦那五年呢五年大概就是說就看看後面的狀況就是說會不會全部98萬人來登記當然我們是希望我個人認為喔是我樂觀其成了原住民越多越好就是說大家就是才有才有更多的這個我們的我們會有更多的互動啊這個文化也會更精彩他是這樣子所以應該我認為要到98萬人可能"},{"start":227.52,"end":252.492,"text":"五年內啦五年內才有辦法到98萬沒有辦法絕對沒有辦法一下子就到位啦其實政府有沒有這個資源齁那可以如這個最理想化還原原住民族本人本身的身份那也保有他們的文化權益等等的政府有沒有這個資源到比如說五年那你再加五年"},{"start":254.044,"end":260.033,"text":"5年的登記可能後來再加5年在10年後政府有沒有這個資源可以"},{"start":260.714,"end":287.316,"text":"另外對於平埔族我們現在看到的就好幾族了嘛有在這個文化部裡面文化資產這邊有定期活動的齁其實包含這個希拉雅族齁那還有包含台南大內大內投射太祖業績東山吉貝耍業績等等那還有高雄大武龍"},{"start":288.41,"end":299.796,"text":"阿里等等有非常有好幾個族餒對這可能來主委請教一下大概會有多少平埔族的這個"},{"start":301.956,"end":329.747,"text":"我們各位報告我們目前平埔原住民不是只有一個族一碼差不多九族十族九族十族差不多九個族因為現在在文化部裡面大概有十件就十族啦最少九族啦最少九族所以我相信其實在未來台灣政府持續這樣子進步下去的話是有足夠資源那主委所以你的意見是"},{"start":330.948,"end":357.103,"text":"我們這些平埔族,未來他跟我們目前原住民族16族裡面的資源是不會重疊的?不會,我們希望是另外加三眼、平眼這本來就是一個行之多年了嘛,那平埔原住民族我們另外那我們即將遇到的問題,也就是說你五年內登記的他所遇到的包含原住民族的教育法,它適不適用?"},{"start":358.689,"end":361.677,"text":"原住民族的教育法它是不是用我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":363.092,"end":389.071,"text":"像我們自己主管的法令 就是說原住民研法這個其實需要社會廣泛的討論也把當初我們對於原住民族的這些要立原住民族教育法的這些過程然後包含現今社會的狀況要一併的跟社會以及所有的各民族來做一個相關的討論那另外最重要的也就是最難處理的地方制度法要不要處理"},{"start":391.107,"end":408.051,"text":"如果這樣子的話台南也有高雄也有那現在台南跟高雄市直轄市議員是山地山園跟平原是各二席二加二一共是四席但是又有總額的限制接下來的這個平埔族呢"},{"start":409.327,"end":429.304,"text":"這個要怎麼處理一定會碰到的問題拉長時間可能把這個時間拉到五年很多包含教育地方制度這些都要一併的考量而且這個不是原民會一個單位可以處理的必須要廣大很多甚至要動到修憲你知道嗎所以這個我們期待"},{"start":434.748,"end":435.77,"text":"必須要審慎的來完成這些立法的討論謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時42分）請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：在上個會期通過原住民族委員會組織法，令人很遺憾的是把山原跟平原要輪流擔任主委入法，那也很遺憾，我們所有各族的委員因為待遇的問題而全部辭光了，就是有這兩個遺憾啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：這兩個遺憾讓我們理解到當時因為歷史的因素、戶籍登記的因素，所以有山原、有平原，但是其實我們應該要更重視的是各族，這才是我們要加強的，也是這二十多年來政府一直在努力的方向，就是加強各族。因為歷史的因素，平埔族當時並沒有被政府所納入，他們應該也是臺灣原住民族，以廣義的臺灣原住民族來講，用現在16族的這種分法，其實也有學者認為這是狹義的，應該把平埔族人也放入原住民族，這是我們今天要討論的方向，在有了這個方向之後，我們才可以接下來繼續討論。過去因為歷史因素，有山地原住民、平地原住民，原住民族基本法對於他們的文化、生活等等也有一些保障，我們也同意，社會也越來越進步，但是我們現在要討論的是平埔族文化、權益的保障，而且這個已經在一開始就講得很清楚了，主委，你認為這不應該在原住民族基本法的框架裡，而要用另外一個保護或者是對於它的文化這些基本的保護有另外一套的立法。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["李委員柏毅：我們先講清楚這個基本的精神，但是我們接下來就要務實，到目前為止，山地原住民、平地原住民總人數大約61萬。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，你上一個會期在這裡回答的時候說平埔族的人數大概有多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：98萬人。"],["李委員柏毅：如果我們現在開始來登記，以你的版本是3年嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：5年，我跟委員報告，根據我們的預估、研判，在開始登記後不會一下子就到98萬人，這是一定的，就好像我們過去山地跟平地原住民的登記也不是一下子就到今天的這個人數，也許到今年年底可能還不到10萬，這是我的預估。"],["李委員柏毅：那5年呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大概就是看後面的狀況，看會不會全部98萬人都來登記，我個人是樂觀其成，原住民越多越好，大家才有更多的互動，文化也會更精彩，是這樣子。我認為要到98萬人可能要5年內，5年內才有辦法到98萬，絕對沒有辦法一下子就到位。"],["李委員柏毅：政府有沒有這個資源可以做到最理想化，還原原住民族本身的身分，也保有他們的文化、權益等等，政府有沒有這個資源？比如說你再加5年的登記，可能後來再加5年，在10年後，政府有沒有這個資源可以另外對於平埔族……我們現在看到的就好幾族了嘛，在文化部的文化資產這邊有定期活動的，包含西拉雅族，還包含臺南大內頭社太祖夜祭、東山吉貝耍夜祭等等，還有高雄大武壠阿里等等，有好幾個族耶。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，請教一下，大概會有多少平埔族的……"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，平埔原住民不是只有一個族，也差不多有九族、十族喔！"],["李委員柏毅：九族、十族嘛。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，至少九個族。"],["李委員柏毅：因為現在在文化部裡面大概有十件，就十族啦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，最少九族啦。"],["李委員柏毅：最少九族。我相信未來臺灣政府持續這樣進步下去的話，是有足夠資源，主委，所以你的意見是，未來這些平埔族跟原住民族16族的資源是不會重疊的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會，我們希望就是說……"],["李委員柏毅：我們希望是另外加。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，山原、平原的這部分本來就行之多年了，平埔原住民族我們另外……"],["李委員柏毅：我們即將遇到的問題，5年內登記的部分，所遇到的問題包含原住民族的教育法他適不適用？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，像我們自己主管的法令，就是原住民語言發展法還有原住民……"],["李委員柏毅：這個部分其實需要社會廣泛的討論啦……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，還要討論。"],["李委員柏毅：也把當初我們要立原住民族教育法的這些過程，包含現今社會的狀況，要一併跟社會以及各民族來做相關討論。另外最重要的，也就是最難處理的，地方制度法要不要處理？如果這樣子的話，臺南也有，高雄也有耶，現在臺南跟高雄市直轄市議員是山原跟平原各2席，2加2，一共是4席，但是又有總額的限制，接下來的平埔族呢？這要怎麼處理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，這是一定會碰到的問題，當然站在我們政府的立場……"],["李委員柏毅：拉長時間，把這個時間拉到5年，包含教育、地方制度等等這些都要一併考量。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：而且這不是原民會一個單位可以處理的，必須要廣納很多……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，沒有錯，要跨部會的。"],["李委員柏毅：甚至要動到修憲，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：是啊，所以這部分我們期待，也必須要審慎地來完成這些立法的討論，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","下一位請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文；第四案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-06-30","start_time":"2025-06-30T09:34:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-30T09:42:07+08:00","duration":474,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7478437500000004,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.122218750000002,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.286593750000002,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.41284375,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.446593750000005,"end":40.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.27346875,"end":41.492843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.492843750000006,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.18346875,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.862218750000004,"end":56.275343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.95034375,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.76409375,"end":99.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.11659375,"end":107.82846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.41909375,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.12409375000001,"end":163.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.20784375000002,"end":206.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.28659375,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.73284375,"end":208.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.51721875,"end":215.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.87909375,"end":216.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.27971875,"end":222.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.91596875000002,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.62846875000002,"end":234.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.81284375,"end":249.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.87471875000003,"end":245.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.84846875000002,"end":261.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.35284375000003,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.12034375,"end":282.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.92346875000004,"end":283.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.08784375,"end":285.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.02846875,"end":289.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.58909375,"end":357.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.99659375000005,"end":301.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.57221875000005,"end":316.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.36471875,"end":321.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.18596875000003,"end":368.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.08721875000003,"end":398.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.27909375,"end":383.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.36346875000004,"end":383.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.53221875,"end":383.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.12471875,"end":399.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.68159375000005,"end":401.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.40284375000005,"end":426.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.04971875,"end":420.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.69846875,"end":448.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.73721875,"end":448.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.97346875000005,"end":449.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.15909375,"end":462.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.06409375000004,"end":467.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.38409375000003,"end":467.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.07596875,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.97034375000004,"end":469.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.10534375000003,"end":469.12221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.33721875000003,"end":472.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.34534375000004,"end":473.96534375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.793,"end":5.98,"text":"好 謝主席 我們請曾主委曾主委有請"},{"start":10.154,"end":39.874,"text":"委員好好 主委好今天這個評普原住民族的身份法其實就是依照憲判嘛要在今年十月之前必須要完成這個立法那我也知道說其實原民會都有下去開座談會了那所以我在這邊直接請教第一個這個在座談會上也很多人不只是目前的既有的原住民族還有接下來的評普族他們都有提出的意見就是到底要不要放入原基法"},{"start":40.594,"end":49.003,"text":"這個問題那可不可以請主委在這邊明確的告訴所有的原住民的朋友為什麼你們選擇不放入原基法"},{"start":50.199,"end":72.581,"text":"我跟委員報告原住民主基本法他的成立是已經有3D原住民平地原住民後來才因為要規範3D原住民跟平地原住民才有原住民主基本法不是原住民基本法先先以這兩個民主的存在那當然"},{"start":73.557,"end":97.592,"text":"這個憲法的判決也非常明確就是說這個所有的這個它的潛力保障的內容我們應該要依這個各組的客觀需求還要遵守國家的資源的分配我們來另一法律來定制所謂的這個基本法不是就是說不當然適用我舉一個例比如說這個有關"},{"start":100.214,"end":117.222,"text":"未來有關原住民的這個考試好平埔原住民的加分考試加分優待是不是要跟山地平原來的加分的優待是不是一樣用這個扣打2%還是平埔原住民因為他比較"},{"start":118.038,"end":132.092,"text":"已經很久沒有享受這樣的一個而且很多人需要是不是要另外要外加不要再去佔這個不然就名額就變少了我只是舉這個例所以不當然適用並不是完全不適用這個原住民主基本法"},{"start":133.186,"end":160.18,"text":"好其實主委講得很清楚啦國家資源如何分配的問題那其實目前也既有的原住民族就是這16族大家的意見也是認為不希望放進去是因為擔心排擠到目前原住民族的資源那所以我在這邊就很直接的請教因為其實你們在既然說現在要訂定專法那專法裡面如何保障平埔原住民族他們也可以享有"},{"start":160.86,"end":173.611,"text":"資源這件事情是你們必須要往前告訴大家的而不是說因為擔心你們排擠到目前的原住民所以我們另訂專法那請問另訂專法就不需要提供這些資源了嗎我舉個例子對現在就是重點"},{"start":176.213,"end":202.873,"text":"社會福利以及你剛剛說的政治參與還有這些考試的問題這些名額的問題到底要接下來如何提供評普援助民族也可以有這些資源是最重要的那所以我認為你們應該要有一些大方向的報告包括說其實這個政治參與也是很多人擔心的就是說那接下來如果評普援助民族他們要有自己的代表"},{"start":203.493,"end":221.541,"text":"要有自己的一些民意的展現那接下來他們會有額外的這些名額的釋放嗎增加嗎或者另外投票嗎這個你們有考慮過嗎跟委員報告這個是大部分的人會有這樣的一個誤會就是我"},{"start":223.024,"end":249.169,"text":"即刻起的平埔原住民的身份我是不是馬上可以選立委或者是立委是不是可以開又就是說平埔原住民又產生立法委員我跟委員報告這個參選特別是立委這個是憲法規定的那憲法的這個精神目前就是沒有這樣的一個你必須要修憲要考量到修憲的現實所以這不可能第二個就是說"},{"start":250.609,"end":259.035,"text":"還有一些交通水利、醫療、土地、社會福利等等我們當然要斟酌所有國家的資源我們來整體的來做規劃跟委員報告"},{"start":262.421,"end":282.3,"text":"原住民族群 平埔族群多了以後當然用的資源就會多當然就要用國家的資源比較多這個我想我們人民會也會認真的面對這個是必須我們也會跟行政院來做報告當然資源就要放得多啊這是一定的所以也請平埔族的族人"},{"start":282.97,"end":306.808,"text":"放心我們這個資源一定登記的人越多當然資源一定會晃得越多所以這就是我希望接下來你們要審慎規劃的包括我剛剛說的這個政治參與的部分因為涉及到修憲因為其實憲法裡面已經把立委的總席次還有原住民的席次其實都已經寫得很明確了那如果接下來平埔族真的你們的專法下去了總共有90萬人來登記之後"},{"start":308.749,"end":330.051,"text":"那這90萬人的民意是需要另外去進行修憲嗎你們的想法是什麼這個其實都要事先想起來放那包括說還有剛剛提到的考試的部分是不是需要額外的加名額還有社福醫療的部分包括說請領各種老年給付的這個年齡是不是需要因應平埔原住民族給他們另外的這樣的條件"},{"start":331.252,"end":339.594,"text":"還有勞工的權益包括說這個碎石祭儀前陣子也才討論過接下來平埔原住民族是有享有這樣的碎石祭儀的假期嗎這些其實你們都要全方位的去討論所以我不知道說主委在這邊有沒有心裡有這樣的構想關於各個方面社會福利也好這個各個制度的設計民意代表政治參與這些其實都要全方位的去考量才對啊"},{"start":358.206,"end":368.218,"text":"有 我們的條文也有規定我們即刻就進行社會調查剛剛委員提示的這些我們都會都已經在陸續在做了但是我們希望做得快一點"},{"start":369.358,"end":398.57,"text":"沒錯這個就是這個時候最重要的因為我們不希望說原本的山地原住民跟接下來的平埔族人彼此之間會有任何的心結或衝突這個都不是我們立這部法當初的意旨是也不是我們的精神是希望說可以保障更多的原住民族享有他們應盡的權益他們的資源所以呢我在這邊希望說既然你們都已經決定要用專法來審查了那這方面就要更務實的來考量好嗎"},{"start":399.19,"end":425.306,"text":"是好這個真的要拜託主委那再來另外一個就是其實在我們的你們的版本裡面有明確的提到說要取得身份必須要有文化特徵的獨特性那我認為這件事情這個條件必須要更明確的告訴族人說我們要申請的取得身份其實你們列了好幾個條件嘛那有些人的質疑是說覺得這個條件比原本的原基法還要嚴苛喔"},{"start":426.767,"end":448.829,"text":"所以這件事情我希望主委也要審慎的思考是不是變成說我們平埔原住民族在爭取身份認同的時候他還要去舉證說對我們的文化特徵獨特性包括哪些哪些跟原本16族不同跟漢人也不同所以我們必須要用非常困難的條件才能取得這個身份認同我相信這也不是我們的精神啦是"},{"start":449.329,"end":468.848,"text":"我們我們這個是按照憲法的精神精神我們來這樣來這樣做個解釋但是實務上法條上我們都有規定是希望要用用用比較寬鬆的角度來認定我們的平埔原住民的豬人好對這個就是要希望接下來審查的時候你們要寫明確的好嗎謝謝好謝謝主委好謝謝黃婕委員下一位我們請李博義委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":204,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時34分）謝謝主席，請曾主委◦"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。今天審查平埔原住民族身分法，其實就是依照憲判，必須在今年10月之前完成這個立法，我也知道其實原民會都有下去開座談會了，所以我在這邊直接請教，第一個，在座談會上也很多人提到，不只是目前既有的原住民族，還有接下來的平埔族，他們都有提出的意見就是到底要不要放入原基法這個問題，可不可以請主委在這邊明確的告訴所有原住民朋友，為什麼你們選擇不放入原基法？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，原住民族基本法它的成立是之前已經有山地原住民、平地原住民了，後來因為要規範山地原住民跟平地原住民，所以才有原住民族基本法，不是原住民基本法先於這兩個民族的存在。當然憲法的判決也非常明確，它所有權利保障的內容，我們應該要依各族的客觀需求，還要斟酌國家的資源分配，另以法律定之。而所謂的基本法並不當然適用，我舉一個例，譬如說，在未來有關原住民的考試，平埔原住民的考試加分優待是不是要跟山地、平地原住民原來的加分優待一樣用2%這個quota？還是因為平埔原住民已經很久沒有享受這樣的優待，而且有很多人需要，所以是不是另外要外加，不要再去占這2%，不然名額就變少了？我只是舉這個例子，所以是不當然適用，並不是完全不適用原住民族基本法。"],["黃委員捷：好，其實主委講得很清楚，就是國家資源如何分配的問題，目前既有的原住民族就是這16族，大家的意見是不希望放進去，正是因為擔心排擠到目前原住民族的資源，所以我在這邊就很直接地請教，既然說現在要制定專法，在專法裡面如何保障平埔原住民族，讓他們也可以享有資源，這件事情是你們必須要往前告訴大家的，而不是說因為擔心你們排擠到目前的原住民，所以我們另定專法，那請問另定專法就不需要提供這些資源了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：要。"],["黃委員捷：我舉一個例子，現在重點就是社會福利以及你剛剛說的政治參與還有這些考試加分名額的問題，到底接下來要如何讓平埔原住民族也可以享有這些資源，這是最重要的。所以我認為你們應該要有一些大方向的報告，包括政治參與也是很多人所擔心的，就是接下來如果平埔原住民族他們要有自己的代表、要自己有一些民意的展現，那他們會有額外名額的釋放嗎？會增加嗎？或者是另外投票嗎？這個你們有考慮過嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，大部分的人會有這樣的誤會，就是即刻取得平埔原住民的身分後，我是不是馬上就可以選立委？或者是平埔原住民可不可以又產生立法委員？我跟委員報告，參加選舉──特別是參選立委，這是憲法所規定的，依憲法的精神目前就是沒有這樣，所以必須要修憲，要考量到修憲的現實，所以這不可能。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["曾主任委員智勇：第二個，還有交通水利、衛生醫療、經濟土地及社會福利事業等等，我們當然要斟酌所有的國家資源，然後整體來做規劃。跟委員報告，原住民族群在多了平埔族群以後，所需要的資源會變多，當然就要用比較多的國家資源，我想我們原民會會認真的面對，我們也會跟行政院來做報告，因為資源就要放得多，這是一定的，所以也請平埔族的族人放心，登記的人越多，當然資源一定會放得越多，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：所以我希望接下來你們要審慎規劃，包括我剛剛說的政治參與這個部分，因為涉及到修憲，其實憲法裡面已經把立委的總席次還有原住民的席次寫得很明確了，那如果接下來這個平埔族的專法定下去了，總共有90萬人來登記，那這90萬人的民意是需要另外去進行修憲嗎？你們的想法是什麼？這個其實都要事先想起來放，包括剛剛提到在考試部分是不是需要額外增加名額；還有在社福、醫療部分請領各種老年給付的年齡是不是需要因應平埔原住民族，另外給他們這樣的條件；還有勞工的權益，像前陣子才討論過歲時祭儀假的問題，接下來平埔原住民族也可以請歲時祭儀假嗎？像這些其實你們都要全方位的去討論，我不知道說主委心裡有沒有關於各方面的構想，像社會福利也好，還有各個制度的設計、民意代表、政治參與，這些其實都要全方位的去考量才對啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們的條文也有規定我們即刻就進行社會調查，剛剛委員提示的這些，我們都已經陸續在做了，但是我們希望做得快一點。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這就是在這個時候最重要的，因為我們不希望原本的山地原住民跟接下來的平埔族人彼此之間有任何的心結或衝突，這個並不是當初我們要立這部法的意旨，我們的精神是希望說可以保障更多的原住民族，讓他們享有他們的權益、他們的資源，既然你們都已經決定要以專法來審查了，我希望對這方面就要更務實的來考量，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員捷：另外，其實在你們的版本裡面有明確的規定要取得身分就必須要有具獨特性的文化特徵，我認為必須要更明確的告訴族人要申請取得身分的條件，其實你們列了好幾個條件，有些人提出質疑，覺得這些條件比原本原基法的規定還要嚴苛，所以我希望主委也要審慎的思考這件事情，是不是變成平埔原住民族在爭取身分認同的時候還要去舉證自己的民族有哪些具獨特性的文化特徵，跟原本的16族不同，跟漢人也不同？所以條件非常困難，必須要符合這些條件才能取得身分認同，我相信這也不是我們的精神啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，我們是按照憲法的精神來做解釋，但是在實務上對於法條規定我們是希望要以比較寬鬆的角度來認定平埔原住民族的族人。"],["黃委員捷：好，希望在接下來審查的時候你們要明確的寫清楚，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃捷委員。","下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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主委今天所要討論的就是80年的"},{"start":127.003,"end":138.485,"text":"法庭憲法裡面就判決說,全部主委就要在今年三年來就是在今年一八十四年的十月來,就要來完成啦但是說實在的主委,在我的辦公室也好,在家裡的服務處也好都有接到公民團體的建議啦"},{"start":155.556,"end":167.404,"text":"那也有我們的委員裡面的建議,因為公民團體的建議是希望我們不要繼續修另外一個法,是應該"},{"start":169.565,"end":189.294,"text":"全部主是關主民裡面的一份主是不是要在裡面的新聞來收到因為在公民團體的意見當中請問主委,你有聽到公民團體的意見嗎?來,你回答一下"},{"start":191.343,"end":201.826,"text":"我跟魏旺報告,這個去年的時候,我們就已經辦高中的座談會,今年這個沒有啦,我知道你辦,我是主委,不好意思,我要打岔我就是說,辦,辦,他們的意見,我知道你有辦喔,不過剛才就來了,你說你們沒有辦,我知道你有辦,跟辦他們的意見,你有參與,有做參考沒有啦來,主委請你回答"},{"start":220.538,"end":221.879,"text":"在今天這個座談會 也有公民團體提起這個意見但是為什麼不直接就修原住民法 也有很多人在說"},{"start":236.271,"end":250.383,"text":"但是就是說這個看我們這個判決的這個立法的主文我們是希望就是說必須要能夠用一個專法更能夠來符合我們的"},{"start":251.184,"end":273.24,"text":"平埔原住民族群的一些相關的權益這也有人在說差不多意見是差不多差不多啦不是說都說一定要修身分法也有說要修專法這個修專法的這個共識比這個修身分法比直接修身分法比較多一點啦"},{"start":273.84,"end":277.581,"text":"多一點點 比較多一點啦這樣喔 跟我聽是沒那麼多的主委 你是覺得麻煩 還是怕說有很多問題的參選所以你來做這個手法 這個問題不 因為我都覺得 不管什麼意見我們都要聽 因為我覺得 我們的委員他的意見"},{"start":300.35,"end":306.7,"text":"也好,公民團體的意見也好,因為坦白說,大家都想一個關注他們的一分數的時間,是怎樣你們要再六分"},{"start":313.963,"end":320.487,"text":"這讓他們覺得,不然我們再加原住民,又不公平,要怎麼分辨?說到這裡,讓人所說的話,就是怕大家的偏埔族來賓,所謂的納入原住民來賓"},{"start":336.991,"end":338.834,"text":"16宗,我們如果多做一宗就好了,變成17宗就好了我們不會這麼麻煩但是最主要的,我要說的就是我們裡面的資源"},{"start":351.539,"end":362.126,"text":"是要公家用,還是要這樣用,這是很大的問題啦,主委,你應該聽我說的意思啦是要這樣自己用,還是要公家自願公家用,這個是最重要的啦"},{"start":373.294,"end":387.382,"text":"變得我們越做越大,不是跟一家人的使用在這裏面,我要來請教主委,主委在213條裏面,全部講到教育及文化"},{"start":393.476,"end":405.323,"text":"那這樣下去的時候 他們的祕密會更加有文化是不是跟我們現在的原住民 更加有差異啊你第二十三條來賓 怎麼會更加有文化有關這個語言跟文化"},{"start":418.041,"end":437.698,"text":"直接將來平埔族群是直接就可以適用現在的法律現在可以用啊現在我們就有在協助他們的尤其是語言啦他們的語言流速太快了所以我們現在就有在協助平埔原住民的族人在做這個語言文化這一定要做的現在也在做啊"},{"start":439.144,"end":445.37,"text":"主委,在這方面,我提供的意見,你要去了解,要想一個方法,是非常簡單在這個過程當中,你也有說到,我們要想的事情是不是讓他們去"},{"start":455.64,"end":458.603,"text":"認定他們的身份,在五年五年裡面,心事不足的時候,我們要改十年剛才你還說,也可以改十五年,但是在這個規定要改的時候,沒有做,這裡的族群"},{"start":476.359,"end":483.063,"text":"在那裡等啊等,慢啊慢啊,好,真好等啊,本身要跟你說的是,是要如何如何,他們長久以來,他們就要證出他們的身份,要如何去選擇他們的核心去定義,因為最了解"},{"start":496.53,"end":498.812,"text":"在統計台的總統差不多有九十萬人的民眾我們現在有六十幾萬人的關注人所以在這個規定當中我們要怎樣"},{"start":513.602,"end":517.664,"text":"讓這裡的九十幾萬人,在這個時間可以出來登記啦你不可以說,他說可以行,可以行,他說行不完,也做不完,跟一個工會,也沒有資質,要修法我們就是有這個關係要修,要讓他們在這裡可以認定他們的身份啦所以主委本身跟你說這些"},{"start":539.736,"end":543.721,"text":"這個議件的時候,麻煩我們討論的時候,你們要去納入"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時24分）主席，請主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。"],["曾主任委員智勇：早。"],["王委員美惠：主委，今天我們要審平埔族原住民身分的草案，在這裡面，你們覺得有什麼寫得不對嗎？因為差一字就天差地遠。本席要跟你們討論的就是第三條，裡面有講到憲法增修條文第四條第二項第一款，不過「原住民」並不在第二項第一款，只有第一項第二款有提到。主委，這是小小的過錯嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對！對！對！這個有誤植！"],["王委員美惠：但主委我要跟你說，這不能有小小過錯，這兩部分並不像晚輩跟長輩要100要不到，其實要50也好，這是不同的，該條條款裡面的所定的跟你所定的，是完全不同的，所以主委，這要非常的注意。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：不能說這是小小過錯，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：因為立法不是開玩笑的，而且我在看條文的時候，還怕自己問錯了，還請教了好幾位專家，後來才知這可能是你們寫錯了，主委，所以你們螺絲要栓緊。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：主委，今天要討論的是110年憲法法庭判決，針對平埔族身分要在3年內，也就是今（114）年10月以前就要完成相關的立法，說實在的，無論是我的辦公室也好，或是在嘉義的服務處也好，都有接到公民團體的建議，而公民團體的建議是希望我們不要再立另外一個法，而是應該基於平埔族是原住民裡面的一分子，要以這樣的身分來修法才對，請問主委，你有聽到公民團體的意見嗎？請　你回答一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，去年我們就已經辦了9場","的座談會，今年……"],["王委員美惠：主委，不好意思，我要打岔，我知道你有辦座談會，不然剛才我就會問你怎麼沒辦，所以我知道你有辦，但是他們提出的意見你有採納並留作參考嗎？請主委回答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：在好幾場的座談會當中，也都是有公民團體提出這個意見，但是在認定上，為什麼不直接修原住民法，這也是有很多人提出，但是就這個判決的主文，我們是希望用一個專法，如此更能符合我們平埔原住民族群一些相關的權益，這個說法也是有人提出，兩方的意見都差不多、差不多啦！"],["王委員美惠：各一半啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是全部都說要修身分法，也有人說要立專法，而立專法的共識比直接修身分法還要多一點。"],["王委員美惠：多一點點？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，比較多一點啦！"],["王委員美惠：是這樣嗎？我聽到的卻不是那麼多！主委，你是覺得麻煩還是擔心屆時會有很多問題產生，所以才做這樣的處理？不然我是覺得，不管是什麼意見我們都要聽，包括委員的意見也好，公民團體的意見也好，坦白說，若都身為原住民的一分子，為什麼你們還要再做區分？這會讓他們感覺、覺得自己跟原住民是不一樣的嗎？不然為什麼要再做區分？說難聽一點，就是河洛人所說的……就是擔心平埔族納入原住民裡面的16族，其實只要再加1族變17族就好了，何必這麼麻煩？其實最主要是因為裡面的資源是要共同使用還是要自己留著用，這就是很大的問題了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：主委應該聽得懂我的意思啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我聽得懂。"],["王委員美惠：是要自己用，還是公家資源大家共同使用，這才是最重要的，餅我們要越做越大，不是只有這些人才能使用。我要請教主委，在你們的第二十三條裡面並沒有說到教育和文化，如果是這樣來立法，平埔族的教育和文化是不是跟我們現在的原住民又有差異了？即你們第二十三條裡面並沒有納入教育和文化。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，有關語言跟文化，將來平埔族群直接就可以適用現在的法令，現在就可以用了，而且現在我們就已經在協助他們，尤其是語言，他們的語言流失太快了，所以我們現在就有在協助平埔原住民族人來做相關的工作，的確，語言、文化這是一定要做的，現在也已經在做了。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席提供的這些意見，你們要進行暸解，畢竟要立一個法很不簡單，在這個過程當中，你們也有說到，是不是讓他們在認定他們身分一事上，若5年的時間有所不足的時候，我們將其改為10年，剛才你還說也可以改為15年。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是啊！"],["王委員美惠：不過在立法的過程裡面，平埔族這些族人在那邊等啊等！盼啊盼！實在是等很久了，本席要跟你說的是，長久以來他們就是要爭取他們的身分，所以要向他們宣導早日去登記，據了解，統計下來總total差不多有90萬的平埔族。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是啊！"],["王委員美惠：現在有六十幾萬人的原住民，所以在這個過程當中，我們要怎麼讓這九十幾萬人可以在這個時間內前來登記，你不能只會說這是可以延長的，這樣不就延不完，你們也做不完，這項工作也沒有很積極去做。本席認為，既然要立法，就是有這個決心要立法，可以早日認定他們的身分。主委，本席跟你說的這些意見，麻煩我們討論的時候你們要予以納入，以上。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：主席，不好意思！"],["主席：沒關係，謝謝王美惠委員。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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有請園民會曾主委曾主委有請"},{"start":15.647,"end":42.648,"text":"主委早 首先先謝謝主委履行承諾在6月6號特別有來台南與我們台南的立委跟在地的西拉伊亞族親們來舉行座談會那本席要強調歷史一再的錯誤不代表就能忽略部分群體的權利那行政的怠惰跟立法進度的延宕也不能以此當作藉口讓族親們在身份的認定上孤立無援"},{"start":45.302,"end":69.473,"text":"那本席有看到就國民黨的立委他的法律提案說明中有兩大謬誤第一他說自清朝日治時代以來就有生番熟番的區別所以世代與民客這個生活領域相同的平埔原住民族還有這個自認與生活這個跟生番"},{"start":70.214,"end":80.729,"text":"就是說跟他們身分地內的山地原住民跟平地原住民有別喔這是一大錯誤齁那這個大的錯誤齁在台灣的那個南島語系"},{"start":86.328,"end":108.571,"text":"民族他並不因為這個殖民者的殖民程度有別這個就在於失去被認定同為這個台灣南岛語系的一員嘛這個主委你認定嗎是是好那第二個這個委員他有指出說因為國大的修憲喔他有明確排除這個平埔原住民族群"},{"start":109.251,"end":127.12,"text":"以及後續立法院沒有積極處理這個平埔族群原住民的修法所以現行的台灣的這個法定原住民族與尚未被認定為法定原住民族的其他台灣南島語系民族這個兩者他覺得是"},{"start":127.74,"end":152.601,"text":"分別的獨立的族群而且互不隸屬我覺得這又是另外一大錯誤那錯在什麼地方 錯在立法的消極不應該來決定所謂的族群別所以本席反覆強調血緣是與生俱來的那歷史上的立法錯誤即便是這樣歷史上的立法錯誤可是它"},{"start":153.422,"end":172.147,"text":"一度他排除了這個平埔族成為所謂的法定原住民的身份可是憲法法庭給立法者補考的機會所以我們這個時候就不該再以過去立法的消極來再次錯誤推斷這個族群分別獨立且不隸屬"},{"start":174.019,"end":189.452,"text":"那好 那我現在要呼籲朝野的立委就是說我們必須要真的要理性來審理法案然後盡速讓族親們得到應有的這個身份認定那而不是說借法案的審查來分化挑撥這個族群"},{"start":193.254,"end":207.061,"text":"針對以上本席所說的有委員認定這個平埔族群原住民不是原住民而且還要吝嗇所謂的平埔族群委員會這個部分不曉得主委你怎麼看謝謝委員我想是這樣在憲法的判決也很明確的講"},{"start":216.894,"end":244.287,"text":"只要是他有一定的這個不管是語言習俗傳統等等歷史記錄他有一定的這個可以證明他是台灣我們南島語系的這個族群的話就必須是我們的就是也是台灣的原住民只不過是因為他歷史上的關係他比較沒有辦法那麼快登記當然我們還是要站在現在現在站在政府的立場尤其是延民會當然"},{"start":245.647,"end":268.772,"text":"要承認而且要給予他應有的這個尊嚴跟地位我們本來就是要做的只是做的比較慢一點所以未來平埔族應該也隸屬於所謂原住民委員會來管對不對是 是我們服務的對象那接著本席想要借一個假設的例子來跟您探討限期登記這個規範的瑕疵"},{"start":271.172,"end":280.458,"text":"有一位新來的青年那他在姓友的草案你們院版的這個版本通過之後沒有在期限內完成足別身份登記後來他結婚生子那小孩長大之後有登記原住民這個身份別的意願"},{"start":287.543,"end":308.883,"text":"然後想要再藉著他在日治時代這個祖先的戶籍登記去申請祖別的登記請問這樣他錯過現期登記的這個希拉雅的孩童有著族群的自我認同意識這樣子他還能繼續進行登記嗎那如果不能登記是不是現期登記這個就是一個很大的瑕疵 主委"},{"start":312.932,"end":339.34,"text":"跟委員報告這個五年是我們現在的草案的五年那當然我們在討論的過程這個五年是不是要延長到十年或者是十五年二十年我們還可以再討論我們是因為現在還沒定案但是一個法律總要先定一個要有一個時間性怕他的前例會延宕我們就定五年但是如果委員們覺得五年太短那當然我們都可以討論可是為什麼一定要有一個期限"},{"start":340.2,"end":355.959,"text":"因為我們希望在這個短暫的這個說五年也不短至少說讓我們可以明確的掌握到到底登記的我們的這個平埔族群有多少人我們好做內部的資源的調整比如說這個資源一定會調整因為"},{"start":357.02,"end":378.655,"text":"如果平埔族群多當然這個用的資源政府一定要盤點這個資源所以是因為這個原因才會希望他在五年內我們很快能夠知道多少但是我們知道如果五年委員覺得說還有很多的人他還是沒有辦法那麼快的就能夠知道自己是平埔族然後趕快來登記我們可以討論這個期限可以延長嗎"},{"start":382.358,"end":411.668,"text":"好 其次的問題我們心火暗的時候再來講嘛好 我最後要講一句話 有一本書叫沒有名字的人這本書有一句話說族群的邊界與框架是權利者認定的那主委我們雖然握有立法跟這個行政的權利可是我們絕不能重蹈這過去立法者所犯下的錯誤所以本席要最後強調已經形塑出文化的族群就應該被認可所以主委讓我們一起陪沒有名字的人"},{"start":412.449,"end":417.88,"text":"來走好身份認定這條路好嗎好好謝謝主委主委加油謝謝主席好謝謝林益菁委員下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":142,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（9時17分）謝謝主席。有請原民會曾主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委早。"],["曾主任委員智勇：早。"],["林委員宜瑾：首先先謝謝主委履行承諾，在6月6號特別來臺南與臺南的立委，跟在地的西拉雅族群們舉行座談會。本席要強調，歷史一再錯誤不代表就能忽略部分群體的權利，也不能以行政怠惰跟立法進度延宕當作藉口，讓族群們在身分的認定上孤立無援。本席有看到國民黨立委的法律提案說明有兩大謬誤：第一、他說自清朝、日治時代以來，就有生番、熟番的區別，所以世代與閩、客生活領域相同的平埔原住民族，自與生活於生番地內之山地原住民跟平地原住民有別，這也算是一大錯誤。臺灣的南島語系民族並不因殖民者的殖民程度有別，就失去被認定同為南島語系的一員，主委認同嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：第二、這個委員指出，因為國大修憲明確排除平埔原住民族群，以及後續立法院沒有積極處理平埔原住民族群的修法，所以他覺得現行臺灣法定原住民族與尚未被認定為法定原住民族的其他南島語系民族，這兩者是分別獨立的族群而且互不隸屬。這又是另外一大錯誤，錯在什麼地方？錯在不應該以立法的消極來決定所謂的族群別，所以本席反覆強調，血緣是與生俱來的，即便歷史上的立法錯誤一度排除平埔族擁有所謂法定原住民的身分，所幸憲法法庭給立法者補考的機會，所以我們這個時候就不該再以過去立法的消極，再次錯誤推斷族群分別獨立且不隸屬。","我現在要呼籲朝野立委，我們真的必須要理性審理法案，儘速讓族群們得到應有的身分認定，而不是藉法案的審查來分化、挑撥族群。針對以上本席所說的，有委員認定平埔族群原住民不是原住民，而且還要另設所謂的平埔族群委員會，這個部分主委怎麼看？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。我想是這樣，憲法判決也很明確的講，不管是語言、習俗、傳統或歷史紀錄等等，只要有一定的、可以證明是臺灣南島語系族群的話，也是臺灣的原住民，只不過是因為歷史上的關係，比較沒有辦法那麼快登記。我們站在政府的立場，尤其是原民會，當然要承認而且給予他應有的尊嚴跟地位，這是我們本來就要做的，只是做得比較慢一點。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以未來平埔族應該也隸屬於原住民族委員會來管，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，是我們服務的對象。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，接著本席想要藉一個假設的例子，跟您探討限期登記這個規範的瑕疵。假設有一位西拉雅青年，在現有的草案，即院版的版本通過之後，沒有在期限內完成族別身分登記，後來他結婚生子，小孩長大之後有登記原住民身分別的意願，想要藉著他的祖先在日治時代的戶籍登記去申請族別登記，請問錯過限期登記的西拉雅孩童，有著族群的自我認同意識，這樣他還能繼續進行登記嗎？如果不能登記，是不是限期登記就是一個很大的瑕疵？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個5年是現在的草案5年，當然我們在討論的過程中，這個5年是不是要延長到10年或者15年、20年，還可以再討論，因為現在還沒定案。但是一個法律總要先訂一個時間，怕他的權利會延宕，我們就訂5年，如果委員們覺得5年太短，當然都可以討論，好不好？"],["林委員宜瑾：可是為什麼一定要有一個期限？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為我們希望在這個短暫的……5年也不短，至少讓我們可以明確掌握到到底登記的平埔族群有多少人，我們好做內部資源調整。資源一定會調整，如果平埔族群多，當然政府一定要盤點資源，所以是因為這個原因，才會希望他在5年內登記，好讓我們很快能夠知道有多少。如果委員覺得有很多人還是沒有辦法那麼快地就能夠知道自己是平埔族，然後趕快來登記，我們可以討論，這個期限可以再延。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，有關期限的問題，我們審法案的時候再來討論。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：我最後要講一句話，有一本書叫<沒有名字的人>，這本書有一句話說：「族群的邊界與框架是權力者認定的」，我們雖然握有立法跟行政的權力，可是絕不能重蹈過去立法者所犯下的錯誤，所以本席最後要強調，已經形塑出文化的族群就應該被認可，讓我們一起陪沒有名字的人來走好身分認定這條路，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主委。主委，加油！"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","張智倫","蘇巧慧","丁學忠"],"page_start":137,"meetingDate":["2025-06-30"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平\n埔原住民族群身分法草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1146401_00003"}}},{"id":"162944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b047677e7ec7860a6e3319539138735ae3a86deb72054c9d613b3b430d254b1e89c52ab37a9fb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:09:47 - 09:13:46","影片長度":"00:03:59","會議時間":"2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」。二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra 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現在進行提案說明的部分 請提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請林議員進行提案說明 林委員有請"},{"start":2311.844,"end":2338.029,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁以及全國收看立法院直播的族親們大家好台灣的南島語系民主是先於中華民國憲法存在著既然身份與血緣與生俱來原住民族的身份的有無就不該單單只是靠國家權利的恩賜過去在原住民身份法制定前國民政府曾公告台灣省"},{"start":2338.689,"end":2364.335,"text":"三包身份認定標準以行政命令的方式決定了原住民族的身份認定後來雖然在1950到1960年代曾經公告四次補辦登記但是錯過這幾次的身份登記的時間點就算你身上有著台灣南島語系的血緣還是無法變成我國的法定原住民族"},{"start":2364.995,"end":2385.421,"text":"由此可見原住民族在法律上的概念是限期登記出來的可是這樣完全違法兩公約施行法所保障的民族自主權也影響著族親們的身份認同權本席選區的希拉雅族親們為了爭取法定的原住民族長年倡議並打行政訴訟"},{"start":2390.243,"end":2409.803,"text":"10多年下來終於判得憲法法庭111年憲判字第17號判決的一錘定音憲法本文第22條所保障的原住民身份認同權應照顧到所有台灣南島語系的原住民族憲法法庭的判決點"},{"start":2411.58,"end":2433.303,"text":"憲法法庭判決點出了過去這項歷史的錯誤並指示立法者應限期修法或立法現在用法律去保障民族平埔族親的身份認同權這就是我們立法者的責任不過立法應該如何的周延保障也是需要迫切思考的問題"},{"start":2434.364,"end":2456.029,"text":"就無論如何我們不能再立出一部違憲的法律不能侵奪原住民身份認同權這項的憲法權利因此在本席的評普原住民族身份法草案的版本中將由原住民族委員會主管並由原住民族委員會進行相關的身份認定"},{"start":2457.589,"end":2474.454,"text":"然而具體的身份認定的程序要如何判定在本席的版本中出於嚴謹的考量也會要求要檢據相關的文件例如日治時代的戶籍藤本資料或者相關公文書"},{"start":2475.174,"end":2493.772,"text":"又或者台灣學術機構的研究資料最後一部分本席先前則有要求國科會會同所有的學研單位進行全方面的學術資料盤點供主人們來檢索之用不過也有足先向本席反映公文書資料的檢附"},{"start":2495.313,"end":2507.686,"text":"不應只侷限在中華民國政府的公文書而是可以參考新港文書等官方歷史文件關於法律條文要如何設計本席將繼續跟原民會來討論"},{"start":2509.868,"end":2536.869,"text":"無論如何平埔原住民族群還是這片土地上最早的主人只是制度的不完整以及歷史上的差錯讓族親們的法定身份無法獲得承認族親們的身份誰決定這是一個值得思索的問題希望朝野能理性審議法案盡速讓族親們獲得應有的身份認定以上 謝謝"},{"start":2539.77,"end":2562.336,"text":"謝謝丁一斤委員的提案說明那一位原委員提案說明已書面提出好現在我們請原住民委員會曾主委委員志勇進行本次法案的報告時間主委你再幾分鐘我們今天登記的人沒有那麼長五分鐘好不好好時間五分鐘好曾主委有請"},{"start":2565.143,"end":2583.701,"text":"主席各位委員大家好 大家早行政院正式提出這個版本主要是根據司法院憲法法庭111年度第17號判決這個判決明確的要求只要一個族群還保有自己的語言習俗"},{"start":2585.241,"end":2608.844,"text":"傳統等文化特徵而且有歷史記錄可以證明既存於台灣的南島語系民主政府就應該依照他們的意願來認定原住民族的身份而且要在三年內也就是在114年10月27日以前透過修法或訂定新法來訂出明確的認定標準申請條件和程序"},{"start":2609.484,"end":2630.451,"text":"同時判決也強調雖然平埔族群保障的內容與範圍不在判決審理範圍內但也仍然提供政府後續的立法方向與指引判決指出立法者應該以憲法保障的意旨充分考量各原住民族及其成員的歷史發展脈絡與現況並且兼顧國家資源的分配"},{"start":2634.992,"end":2642.858,"text":"另以法律定制這部草案的重點大致可分成兩大部分第一是回應憲法的判決"},{"start":2644.485,"end":2665.359,"text":"草案規定評估原住民族的認定標準包括語言習俗文化特徵跟歷史紀錄以及申請審查到公告的流程也考量到身份的變更未成年子女還有因為婚姻或收養的關係產生的身分轉換等情況都有相關的規定"},{"start":2666.46,"end":2686.657,"text":"那麼第二是實踐憲法的指引依據憲法判決的精神要求政府就政治參與、交通水利、醫療、土地、社會福利等等面向要考量平埔原住民族群的歷史與現況並且斟酌國家資源的分配另於法律定制"},{"start":2687.378,"end":2709.487,"text":"另外針對大宴委委員所提出的版本都涉及到原住民族權利體系的核心基礎我們本會競表尊重但為了要遵循憲法判決的意旨並且尊重原住民族各界意見的最大共識我們也建請採納行政院的版本"},{"start":2710.547,"end":2736.769,"text":"這部法案不只是回應憲法法庭的要求更是讓平埔原住民族群在法律上正式被認可讓這些歷經多年爭取的族人終於能名正言順的獲得他們應有的地位與尊重最後衷心期盼各位委員支持行政院所提版本讓平埔族群在歷經長年的正名運動之後"},{"start":2738.171,"end":2744.135,"text":"能依法取得其原住民的身份獲得應有的地位與尊重謝謝好謝謝曾主任委員接下來"},{"start":2751.482,"end":2776.218,"text":"我們其他單位的報告我們就請委員自行參閱我們會刊登公報現在進行詢問委員質詢前原例做以下幾點宣告第一本會及原住民委員時間發言時間六分鐘必要時延長一分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘我們在上午十點三十分截止發言登記我們今天因為法案處理我們就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2778.459,"end":2782.281,"text":"好謝謝現在進行詢答首先請登記第一位林怡瑾委員發言介主席有請園民會曾主委曾主委有請"},{"start":2800.459,"end":2827.444,"text":"主委早 首先先謝謝主委履行承諾在6月6號特別有來台南與我們台南的立委跟在地的希拉雅族親們來舉行座談會那本席要強調歷史一再的錯誤不代表就能忽略部分群體的權利那行政的怠惰跟立法進度的延宕也不能以此當作藉口讓族親們在身份的認定上孤立無援"},{"start":2830.114,"end":2854.285,"text":"那本席有看到就國民黨的立委他的法律提案說明中有兩大謬誤第一他說自清朝日治時代以來就有生番熟番的區別所以世代與民客這個生活領域相同的平埔原住民族還有這個自認與生活這個跟生番"},{"start":2855.026,"end":2865.539,"text":"就是說跟他們身分地內的山地原住民跟平地原住民有別喔這是一大錯誤齁那這個大的錯誤齁在台灣的那個南島語系"},{"start":2871.121,"end":2893.366,"text":"民族他並不因為這個殖民者的殖民程度有別這個就在於失去被認定同為這個台灣南島語系的一員嘛 這個主委你認定嗎 是是好那第二個這個委員他有指出說因為國大的修憲喔 他有明確排除這個平埔原住民族群"},{"start":2894.046,"end":2911.943,"text":"以及後續立法院沒有積極處理這個平埔族群原住民的修法所以現行的台灣的這個法定原住民族與尚未被認定為法定原住民族的其他台灣南島語系民族這個兩者他覺得是"},{"start":2912.543,"end":2937.397,"text":"分別的獨立的族群而且互不隸屬我覺得這又是另外一大錯誤那錯在什麼地方 錯在立法的消極不應該來決定所謂的族群別所以本席反覆強調血緣是與生俱來的那歷史上的立法錯誤即便是這樣歷史上的立法錯誤可是它"},{"start":2938.237,"end":2952.766,"text":"一度他排除了這個平埔族成為所謂的法定原住民的身份可是憲法法庭給立法者補考的機會所以我們這個時候就不該再以過去立法的消極來再次錯誤推斷這個族群分別獨立且不隸屬"},{"start":2958.831,"end":2974.269,"text":"那好 那我現在要呼籲朝野的立委就是說我們必須要真的要理性來審理法案然後盡速讓族親們得到應有的這個身份認定那而不是說借法案的審查來分化挑撥這個族群"},{"start":2978.052,"end":2991.877,"text":"針對以上本席所說的有委員認定這個平埔族群原住民不是原住民而且還要吝嗇所謂的平埔族群委員會這個部分不曉得主委你怎麼看謝謝委員我想是這樣在憲法的判決也很明確的講"},{"start":3001.707,"end":3018.626,"text":"只要是他有一定的這個不管是語言習俗傳統等等歷史記錄他有一定的這個可以證明他是台灣我們南島語系的這個族群的話就必須是我們的就是也是台灣的原住民"},{"start":3019.327,"end":3036.901,"text":"只不過是因為他歷史上的關係他比較沒有辦法那麼快登記當然我們還是要站在政府的立場尤其是延民會當然要承認而且要給予他應有的這個尊嚴跟地位我們本來就是要做的只是做得比較慢一點"},{"start":3038.655,"end":3053.586,"text":"所以未來平埔族應該也隸屬於所謂原住民委員會來管對不對是 是我們服務的對象好 OK那接著本席想要借一個假設的例子來跟您探討限期登記這個規範的瑕疵"},{"start":3055.968,"end":3058.832,"text":"有一位新來的青年那他在現有的草案你們院版的這個版本通過之後沒有在期限內完成逐別身份登記後來他結婚生子那小孩長大之後有登記原住民這個身份別的意願"},{"start":3072.35,"end":3093.679,"text":"然後想要再藉著他在日治時代這個祖先的戶籍登記去申請祖別的登記請問這樣他錯過現期登記的這個希拉雅的孩童有著族群的自我認同意識這樣子他還能繼續進行登記嗎那如果不能登記是不是現期登記這個就是一個很大的瑕疵 主委"},{"start":3097.725,"end":3124.168,"text":"跟委員報告這個五年是我們現在的草案的五年那當然我們在討論的過程這個五年是不是要延長到十年或者是十五年二十年我們還可以再討論我們是因為現在還沒定案但是一個法律總要先定一個要有一個時間性怕他的前例會延宕我們就定五年但是如果委員們覺得五年太短那當然我們都可以討論可是為什麼一定要有一個期限"},{"start":3125.009,"end":3140.07,"text":"因為我們希望在這個短暫的這個說五年也不短至少說讓我們可以明確的掌握到到底登記的我們的這個頻譜族群有多少人我們好做內部的資源的調整比如說這個資源一定會調整因為"},{"start":3141.832,"end":3163.47,"text":"如果平埔族群多當然這個用的資源政府一定要盤點這個資源所以是因為這個原因才會希望他在五年內我們很快能夠知道多少但是我們知道如果五年委員覺得說還有很多的人他還是沒有辦法那麼快的就能夠知道自己是平埔族然後趕快來登記我們可以討論這個期限可以延長嗎"},{"start":3167.173,"end":3196.48,"text":"好 其次的問題我們心火暗的時候再來講好 我最後要講一句話就是說有一本書叫沒有名字的人這本書有一句話說族群的邊界與框架是權利者認定的那主委我們雖然握有立法跟這個行政的權利可是我們絕不能重蹈這過去立法者所犯下的錯誤所以本席要最後強調已經形塑出文化的族群就應該被認可所以主委讓我們一起陪沒有名字的人"},{"start":3197.26,"end":3208.264,"text":"來走好身份認定這條路好嗎好好謝謝主委主委加油謝謝主席好謝謝林益菁委員下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢主席我們請主委曾主委有請委員好嗨"},{"start":3225.373,"end":3229.035,"text":"主委 今天我們要審北部族的官署名的新聞的草案在這裏面 你們有什麼想法不對嗎?"},{"start":3242.486,"end":3259.1,"text":"因為差一天喔,又天差一天了啦本時候要跟你討論的就是在第三條裡面你有說到,我們的憲法修法的第四條第二項第一款但是在我們的裡面,我們市民的裡面並沒有第二項第一款只有第一項第二款"},{"start":3272.25,"end":3278.053,"text":"主委,這是小小過錯,對啦,這個有誤之這不能小小過錯這兩三不是像我們年輕人大人偷100,偷50也好,這是不一樣的啦"},{"start":3295.001,"end":3309.369,"text":"條款裡面所定的和你所定的這是完全不一樣的所以主委這要最終去注意不能說小小過錯好不好因為這時候我來的時候不是開玩笑的因為我看到的時候我怕你問錯了再請教"},{"start":3323.001,"end":3337.226,"text":"所有的專家都說這可能是你們的黨員寫得不對所以主委 老闆要比較好看好來 主委今天所要討論的就是18、20年的"},{"start":3341.247,"end":3352.737,"text":"法庭憲法裡面就判決說 全部主委就要在今年三年來就是在今年84年的十月來 就要來完成啦但是說實在的 主委 在我的辦公室也好 在家裡的服務處也好都有接到公民團體的建議啦"},{"start":3367.981,"end":3381.653,"text":"但是有我們的委員裡面的建議因為公民團體的建議是希望我們不要繼續修另外一個法是應該"},{"start":3383.815,"end":3403.583,"text":"全部主是關主民裡面的一份主是不是要在裡面的新聞來收到因為在公民團體的意見當中請問主委,你有聽到公民團體的意見嗎?來,你回答一下"},{"start":3405.592,"end":3416.076,"text":"我跟魏旺報告,這個去年的時候,我們就已經辦高中的座談會,今年這個沒有啦,我知道你辦,我是主委,不好意思,我要打岔我就是說,辦,辦,他們的意見,我知道你有辦喔不過我剛才就來,你說你們沒有辦,我知道你有辦跟辦他們的意見,你有參與,有做參考沒有啦來,主委請你回答"},{"start":3434.787,"end":3436.128,"text":"在今天這個座談會 也有公民團體提起這個意見但是為什麼不直接就修原住民法 也有很多人在說"},{"start":3450.523,"end":3464.633,"text":"但是就是說這個看我們這個判決的這個立法的主文我們是希望就是說必須要能夠用一個專法更能夠來符合我們的"},{"start":3465.433,"end":3486.748,"text":"平埔原住民族群的一些相關的權益這也是有人在說差不多意見是差不多差不多啦不是說都說一定要修身分法也有說要修專法這個修專法的這個共識比這個修身分法比直接修身分法比較多一點啦"},{"start":3488.089,"end":3491.831,"text":"多一點點 比較多一點啦這樣喔 跟我聽是沒那麼多的主委 你是覺得麻煩 還是怕說有很多問題的參選所以你來做這個手法 這個問題不 因為我都覺得 不管什麼意見我們都要聽 因為我覺得 我們的委員他的意見"},{"start":3514.6,"end":3524.225,"text":"也好,公民團體的意見也好,因為坦白說,大家都想一個關注民的一分數的時間,是怎樣你們要再分,要再分的,這讓他們覺得,不然我們再加關注民,又不公平,不然是怎樣要再分"},{"start":3539.272,"end":3542.593,"text":"說得那麼難聽,讓人說說話,就是今天大家的平埔族裡面所有的納入,原住民裡面的16宗,我們給1宗就好了,變17宗就好了,我們不會這麼麻煩,但是最重要的,我要說的就是,我們裡面的住院"},{"start":3565.805,"end":3576.354,"text":"是要公家用,還是要這樣用,這是很大的問題啦,主委,你應該聽我說的意思,是要這樣自己用,還是要公家自願公家用,這個是最重要的啦"},{"start":3587.703,"end":3601.133,"text":"我們要越做越大,不是跟這些人的使用在這裡面,我要來請教主委,主委在213條裡面,全部講到教育及文化"},{"start":3607.745,"end":3618.332,"text":"那這樣下去的時候 他們的祕密會更加有文化是不是跟我們現在的原住民 更加有差異啊你第二十三條來賓 怎麼會更加有文化有關這個語言跟文化"},{"start":3632.29,"end":3651.944,"text":"直接將來平埔族群是直接就可以適用現在的法律現在可以用啊現在我們就有在協助他們的尤其是語言啦他們的語言流速太快了所以我們現在就有在協助平埔原住民的族人在做這個語言文化這一定要做的現在也在做啊"},{"start":3653.385,"end":3659.927,"text":"主委,在這裡面,我提供的意見,您要去瞭解,我們要修一個法,是非常簡單在這個過程當中,您也有說到,如果我們修衛生是不是讓他們去"},{"start":3669.89,"end":3676.395,"text":"認定他們的身份,在五黨五黨裡面,心事不足的時候,我們要改十黨,剛才你還說,也可以改十五黨,但是在這個規定要改的時候,沒有做,這裡的族群"},{"start":3690.245,"end":3696.372,"text":"在那裡等啊等,慢啊慢啊,好,真好等啊,本身要跟你說的是,是要如何如何,他們長久以來,他們就要證出他們的身份,要如何去選擇他們,何時去定期,因為所了解,"},{"start":3710.799,"end":3713.442,"text":"在統計台的總統差不多有九十萬人的民眾我們現有的現在有六十幾萬人的關注人所以在這個規定當中我們要如何讓這些九十幾萬人"},{"start":3730.6,"end":3734.203,"text":"在這個時間,可以出來登記啦你不能說,他說可以行,可以行他說行不完,也做不完,跟一個會議,也沒有資質要修法,我們就是有這個關係要修,要讓他們家裡可以認定他們的身份啦所以主委本身跟你說這個意見的時候,麻煩我們討論的時候,你們要去納入"},{"start":3759.361,"end":3766.105,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝 王美惠委員下一位我們請黃婕委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們請曾主委曾主委有請"},{"start":3781.929,"end":3811.649,"text":"委員好好 主委好今天這個評普原住民族的身份法其實就是依照憲判嘛要在今年十月之前必須要完成這個立法那我也知道說其實原民會都有下去開座談會了那所以我在這邊直接請教第一個這個在座談會上也很多人不只是目前的既有的原住民族還有接下來的評普族他們都有提出的意見就是到底要不要放入原基法"},{"start":3812.37,"end":3820.781,"text":"這個問題那可不可以請主委在這邊明確的告訴所有的原住民的朋友為什麼你們選擇不放入原基法"},{"start":3821.974,"end":3844.356,"text":"我跟委員報告原住民主基本法他的成立是已經有3D原住民平地原住民後來才因為要規範3D原住民跟平地原住民才有原住民主基本法不是原住民基本法先先以這兩個民主的存在那當然"},{"start":3845.332,"end":3869.365,"text":"這個憲法的判決也非常明確就是說這個所有的這個它的潛力保障的內容我們應該要依這個各組的客觀需求還要遵守國家的資源的分配我們來另一法律來定制所謂的這個基本法不是就是說不當然適用我舉一個例比如說這個有關"},{"start":3871.986,"end":3889.001,"text":"未來有關原住民的這個考試好 平埔原住民的加分考試加分優待是不是要跟山地平原來的加分的優待是不是一樣用這個扣打2%還是平埔原住民因為他比較"},{"start":3889.822,"end":3903.883,"text":"已經很久沒有享受這樣的一個而且很多人需要是不是要另外要外加不要再去佔這個不然就名額就變少了我只是舉這個例所以不當然適用並不是完全不適用這個原住民主基本法"},{"start":3904.96,"end":3931.952,"text":"好其實主委講得很清楚啦國家資源如何分配的問題那其實目前也既有的原住民族就是這16族大家的意見也是認為不希望放進去是因為擔心排擠到目前原住民族的資源那所以我在這邊就很直接的請教因為其實你們在既然說現在要訂定專法那專法裡面如何保障平埔原住民族他們也可以享有"},{"start":3932.632,"end":3945.39,"text":"資源這件事情是你們必須要往前告訴大家的而不是說因為擔心你們排擠到目前原住民所以我們另訂專法那請問另訂專法就不需要提供這些資源了嗎我舉個例子對現在就是重點"},{"start":3947.993,"end":3974.64,"text":"社會福利以及你剛剛說的政治參與還有這些考試的問題這些名額的問題到底要接下來如何提供評普援助民族也可以有這一些資源是最重要的那所以我認為你們應該要有一些大方向的報告包括說其實這個政治參與也是很多人擔心的就是說那接下來如果評普援助民族他們要有自己的代表"},{"start":3975.26,"end":3993.323,"text":"要有自己的一些民意的展現那接下來他們會有額外的這些名額的釋放嗎增加嗎或者另外投票嗎這個你們有考慮過嗎跟委員報告這個是大部分的人會有這樣的一個誤會就是我"},{"start":3994.798,"end":4020.944,"text":"即刻起的平埔原住民的身份我是不是馬上可以選立委或者是立委是不是可以開又就是說平埔原住民又產生立法委員我跟委員報告這個參選特別是立委這個是憲法規定的那憲法的這個精神目前就是沒有這樣的一個你必須要修憲要考量到修憲的現實所以這不可能第二個就是說"},{"start":4022.385,"end":4025.35,"text":"還有一些交通水利、醫療、土地、社會福利等等我們當然要斟酌所有國家的資源我們來整體的來做規劃跟委員報告"},{"start":4034.195,"end":4055.235,"text":"原住民族群 平埔族群多了以後當然用的資源就會多當然就要用國家的資源比較多這個我想我們人民會也會認真的面對這個是必須我們也會跟行政院來做報告當然資源就要放得多啊這是一定的所以也請平埔族的族人放心我們"},{"start":4056.373,"end":4078.56,"text":"這個資源一定登記的人越多當然資源一定會晃得越多所以這就是我希望接下來你們要審慎規劃的包括我剛剛說的這個政治參與的部分因為涉及到修憲因為其實憲法裡面已經把立委的總席次還有原住民的席次其實都已經寫得很明確了那如果接下來平埔族真的你們的專法下去了總共有90萬人來登記之後"},{"start":4080.521,"end":4101.807,"text":"那這90萬人的民意是需要另外去進行修憲嗎你們的想法是什麼這個其實都要先事先想起來放那包括說還有剛剛提到的考試的部分是不是需要額外的加名額還有社福醫療的部分包括說請領各種老年給付的這個年齡是不是需要因應平埔原住民族給他們另外的這樣的條件"},{"start":4103.027,"end":4111.369,"text":"還有勞工的權益包括說這個碎石祭儀前陣子也才討論過接下來平埔原住民族是有享有這樣的碎石祭儀的假期嗎這些其實你們都要全方位的去討論所以我不知道說主委在這邊有沒有心裡有這樣的構想關於各個方面社會福利也好這個各個制度的設計民意代表政治參與這些其實都要全方位的去考量才對啊"},{"start":4129.98,"end":4139.996,"text":"有 我們的條文也有規定我們即刻就進行社會調查剛剛委員提示的這些我們都會都已經在陸續在做了但是我們希望做得快一點"},{"start":4141.133,"end":4170.345,"text":"沒錯這個就是這個時候最重要的因為我們不希望說原本的山地原住民跟接下來的平埔族人彼此之間會有任何的心結或衝突這個都不是我們立這部法當初的意旨也不是我們的精神是希望說可以保障更多的原住民族享有他們應盡的權益他們的資源所以呢我在這邊希望說既然你們都已經決定要用專法來審查了那這方面就要更務實的來考量好嗎"},{"start":4170.965,"end":4197.083,"text":"是好這個真的要拜託主委那再來另外一個就是其實在我們的你們的版本裡面有明確的提到說要取得身份必須要有文化特徵的獨特性那我認為這件事情這個條件必須要更明確的告訴族人說我們要申請的取得身份其實你們列了好幾個條件嘛那有些人的質疑是說覺得這個條件比原本的原基法還要嚴苛喔"},{"start":4198.544,"end":4220.604,"text":"所以這件事情我希望主委也要審慎的思考是不是變成說我們平埔原住民族在爭取身份認同的時候他還要去舉證說對我們的文化特徵獨特性包括哪些哪些跟原本十六族不同跟漢人也不同所以我們必須要用非常困難的條件才能取得這個身份認同我相信這也不是我們的精神啦是"},{"start":4221.985,"end":4240.6,"text":"我們這個是按照憲法的精神我們來這樣來這樣做個解釋但是實務上法條上我們都有規定是希望要用比較寬鬆的角度來認定我們的平埔原住民的族人好對這個就是要希望接下來審查的時候你們要寫明確的好嗎謝謝好謝謝主委好謝謝黃婕委員下一位我們請李博義委員質詢"},{"start":4254.957,"end":4276.051,"text":"請曾主委曾主委有請委員好上個會期通過這個原住民組織法裡面很遺憾就是包含這個也把山原跟平原的主委要輪流擔任入法那也很遺憾我們所有的各族"},{"start":4276.553,"end":4304.669,"text":"各族的委員也因為待遇的問題全部辭光了這兩個遺憾這兩個遺憾就讓我們其實也理解到當時因為歷史的因素戶籍登記的因素那有山園有平原但是其實我們應該要更著重更重視的應該是各族各族群各族各民族"},{"start":4305.302,"end":4334.13,"text":"才是我們要加強這是這二十多年來的政府一直在努力的方向加強各族所以也是歷史的因素啦平埔族當時並沒有被政府所納入應該也是台灣原住民族啦那所以以廣義的台灣原住民族來講那其實你用現在的分法16族"},{"start":4335.41,"end":4362.058,"text":"其實也有學者認為這是狹義那應該把平埔族人也放入原住民族那是我們今天要討論的方向那有了這個方向之後我們才可以接下來繼續的來討論那過去因為歷史因素有三地原住民、平地原住民那也受原住民基本法的一些對於他們的文化、生活等等的一些保障"},{"start":4362.762,"end":4384.798,"text":"那我們也同意那社會也越來越進步但是我們現在來討論的是平普族的相關的文化權益的保障而且這個也已經一開始就講得很清楚了主委你認為他不應該在原住民基本法的框架裡而用另外一個保護或者是"},{"start":4386.27,"end":4404.203,"text":"對於他的文化這些基本的這些保護有一個另外一套的一個立法這基本的精神我們先講清楚但是我們接下來就要務實啦三立原住民、平立原住民到目前為止總人數大約61萬"},{"start":4408.27,"end":4426.315,"text":"主委你在上一個會期來這裡回應的時候回答的時候你說平地原住民平埔族平埔族人大概有多少98萬人98萬人你認為如果我們現在開始來登記以你的版本是3年嗎就是對5年那我跟委員報告說"},{"start":4432.967,"end":4449.845,"text":"登記齁 我們預估啦 研判啦不會說一下子登記就一下子就到98萬人啦這是一定 因為就好像我們過去山地跟平地原住民的登記也不是一下子就到今天的這個人數也許 也許到今年年底可能不到10萬"},{"start":4451.872,"end":4474.792,"text":"我預估啊那五年呢五年大概就是說就看看後面的狀況就是說會不會全部98萬人來登記當然我們是希望我個人認為啊是我樂觀其成的原住民越多越好就是說大家就是才有才有更多的這個我們的我們會有更多的互動啊這個文化也會更精彩他是這樣子所以應該我認為要到98萬人可能"},{"start":4478.783,"end":4503.761,"text":"五年內啦 五年內才有辦法到98萬沒有辦法 絕對沒有辦法一下子就到位啦其實政府有沒有這個資源齁那可以如這個最理想化還原原住民族本身的身份那也保有他們的文化權益等等的政府有沒有這個資源到比如說五年 那你再加五年"},{"start":4505.309,"end":4509.774,"text":"5年的登記,可能後來再加5年在10年後,政府有沒有這個資源"},{"start":4511.977,"end":4538.565,"text":"另外對於平埔族我們現在看到的就好幾族了嘛有在這個文化部裡面文化資產這邊有定期活動的齁其實包含這個希拉雅族齁那還有包含台南大內大內投射太祖業績東山吉貝耍業績等等那還有高雄大武龍"},{"start":4539.67,"end":4551.058,"text":"阿里等等有非常有好幾個族這可能來主委請教一下大概會有多少平埔族的這個"},{"start":4554.058,"end":4580.685,"text":"各位報告我們目前平埔原住民不是只有一個族一碼差不多九族十族差不多九個族因為現在在文化部裡面大概有十件就十族了最少九族所以我相信其實在未來台灣政府持續這樣子進步下去的話是有足夠資源那主委所以你的意見是"},{"start":4582.211,"end":4608.366,"text":"我們這些平埔族,未來他跟我們目前原住民族16族裡面的資源是不會重疊的?不會,我們希望就是說我們希望是另外加三眼、平眼這本來就是一個形式多年了嘛,那平埔原住民族我們另外那我們即將遇到的問題也就是說你五年內登記的他所遇到的包含原住民族的教育法,他適不適用?"},{"start":4609.949,"end":4612.944,"text":"原住民族的教育法它是不是用我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":4614.355,"end":4640.614,"text":"像我們自己主管的法令 就是說原住民研法這個其實需要社會廣泛的討論也把當初我們對於原住民族的這些要立原住民族教育法的這些過程然後包含現今社會的狀況要一併的跟社會以及所有的各民族來做一個相關的討論那另外最重要的也就是最難處理的地方制度法要不要處理"},{"start":4642.369,"end":4659.331,"text":"如果這樣子的話台南也有高雄也有那現在台南跟高雄市直轄市議員是山地山園跟平原是各二席二加二一共是四席但是又有總額的限制接下來的這個平埔族呢"},{"start":4660.59,"end":4680.569,"text":"這個要怎麼處理一定會碰到的問題拉長時間可能把這個時間拉到五年把很多包含教育地方制度這些都要一併的考量而且這個不是原民會一個單位可以處理的必須要廣大很多甚至要動到修憲你知道嗎所以這個我們期待那也"},{"start":4686.024,"end":4694.008,"text":"必須要審慎的來完成這些立法的討論謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝李博記委員下一位我們請張宏祿召委諮詢我請主委曾主委有請委員好"},{"start":4716.991,"end":4740.189,"text":"主委我記得上次我有質詢就是說對於平埔族的登記很多很複雜的工作那我上次質詢到現在也說長不長但我不知道你們我質詢完之後你們這個後續的準備工作你們進行的如何"},{"start":4741.343,"end":4757.973,"text":"好各位報告齁這個法案我們提出來之後送到大宴來之後我們去年當然就已經開了九場的座談會那這個月北中南都各各我們就各開了一場那是由我親自來主持齁我親自來面對我們的這個"},{"start":4759.754,"end":4782.248,"text":"平埔族人那所以我們也整理了他們大概有一些他們的主要的意見還有一些當然有主要有很多也是希望說就直接加入這個原住民的生活法這個也有但也有就是說希望就是說這個現在的這個原住民族基本法"},{"start":4782.828,"end":4800.266,"text":"有的他們並不盡然完全適用是不是還要再外加一些就是說他們要另外再更保障他們這個都有我們都有整理很明顯的啦如果可以開放登記一開始開放登記你的地方的"},{"start":4802.455,"end":4829.578,"text":"地方的有的是園民會有的是園民局有的是什麼的他們能力夠不夠那中央到底能不能有能力去承擔這一些很多平埔族人要來登記那跟委員報告這一開始我們主要是先解決這個認定原住民族就是他是平埔族然後就要認定他個人個人身份先做這個身份的這個登記"},{"start":4830.973,"end":4854.845,"text":"後續的潛力義務 我想我們也會很快的就跟上能做的我們就先做了 東北這個不容易啦 但是就是當然我們還是要先做不是啦 知委 我知道 這些我都知道啦我是說他要登記的時候 可能一下子湧了好幾萬人來要來登記那我們能不能負擔這一個啦 上次我的質詢 大概是這個方向嘛"},{"start":4857.526,"end":4885.941,"text":"我覺得啦 你們還是要及早準備啦尤其要跟地方要準備啦尤其是 我不知道主委你說平埔族身份的認定啦齁其實 齁啊 有一句話啦齁有登山公母登山馬啦那其實啊 很多人搞不好身上都有平埔族流的血液喔這個我們預估大概是一百萬"},{"start":4886.92,"end":4910.37,"text":"對不對,但有可能更多啊所以你們這個很多的必須還是及早準備另外啊我們院版12條裡面有寫一個這個登記期間的限制登記期間的限制就是5年嘛,剛剛也有人講,必要時再延長5年"},{"start":4912.045,"end":4930.944,"text":"主委你覺得這一個5加5這樣子你覺得有沒有時間夠不夠會不會太短這個跟委員報告我們跟平埔族的族人就是說北中南還有到東部做黨的時候他們也認為"},{"start":4932.443,"end":4961.342,"text":"是不是五年太短是可不可以五年過了是不是再延長或者是有人是講是不是可以定二十年那這個我想我們也多尊重我們現在回來之後也在想是不是跟將來進入這個法條的審查是不是也跟大院委員來做一個請教就是說是怎麼樣是不是一定要二十年嗎還是十五年還是到了以後再來延也都可以"},{"start":4963.042,"end":4975.425,"text":"主委其實我為什麼會提這個問題你知道嗎有判例如果你這樣子給他限制他的他的身份是與生俱來的如果用年限來這樣子的話會不會有違憲的問題會違憲的問題嗎"},{"start":4988.89,"end":5004.136,"text":"你們應該去研究一下這個是會不會因為他的身份本來就是與生俱來的啊對不對那我請教一下如果說剛好5加50年對不對"},{"start":5006.69,"end":5031.573,"text":"他剛好人都在國外或什麼的他來不及回來或他回來的時候發現他有這個身份那他要登記我們跟他講說完全不行這個狀況也有可能會出現喔所以我覺得我們這個真的是要再討論那如果說以我們現在採取登記制"},{"start":5034.242,"end":5056.396,"text":"會不會說來比如說現在有一個葛馬蘭族但會不會再出現他新取得的叫做葛馬蘭平埔族會不會有這個情況出現我跟委員報告齁不要說平埔原住民你現在山地原住民齁也有排灣族他是山地原住民他也是平地原住民"},{"start":5057.216,"end":5080.53,"text":"有啊 一樣 這個其實現在就有了所以 那麼你是譬如說撒基拉亞現在是平地原住民也有可能我們平埔原住民裡面也會有撒基拉亞族對啊 對啊所以主委你很清楚我現在所說的問題那所以未來我們台灣的原住民族會不會超過三四十族一個"},{"start":5086.178,"end":5110.257,"text":"不會了應該16再加現在平普最少是可能最多是10個組16加2626不會再我想來平普組現在10個大概10個大概10個那我們現在目前的本來就有的大概就16組對對不對那我剛剛跟你所說的會不會出現一個這個"},{"start":5113.639,"end":5129.226,"text":"葛瑪蘭的平埔族你也說有可能啊對不對所以你光平埔族裡面也有可能有16個他認為他是比如說葛瑪蘭的平埔族或什麼等等的會不會有這種情況出現會啊會啊因為他又是葛瑪蘭嘛他是平原對啊"},{"start":5140.711,"end":5168.157,"text":"不是我跟你講很多情況都可能發生啦主委你知道我在說什麼所以未來台灣的這個原住民族絕對不是像你們剛說的10族然後再加16族26族也有可能會更多這個我都覺得啦我們在這個立法的過程或什麼我們都要必須要去考量啦因為從以前到現在"},{"start":5170.523,"end":5198.001,"text":"通婚太多了啦對不對你不能限定他說他只有一個啊對不對這通婚那麼多啊尤其是平埔族或什麼都有他的各我們現在講的平埔族的始祖裡面有很多都有不同的文化啊對不對他連講一講他的文化是都不一樣的啊對不對所以我說的那種情況有可能會再出現很多族啊對不對我們要提早因應啦好不好好謝謝"},{"start":5202.024,"end":5209.709,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉的諮詢報告委員會我們在高精素美委員諮詢完之後休息三分鐘下一位我們請徐玉珍委員諮詢謝謝主席 我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委 辛苦了被訓談了主委早喂 好主委 剛剛這個張宏祿那個委員在問您的時候您說平埔族有十個族群請問是哪十個"},{"start":5230.786,"end":5241.691,"text":"譬如說希拉雅,還有嘎哈烏,百載還有道卡斯,大舞龍還有巴布拉,還有馬卡道祖還有巴布薩,還有凱達格蘭至少這九個對嗎?你剛講十個還有一個"},{"start":5247.749,"end":5262.62,"text":"紅咬 紅咬張畫的紅咬我們看一下這平埔族 因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了九個啦所以這邊的話 您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去所以我想其實剛剛卡哈烏沒有放進去"},{"start":5275.083,"end":5300.994,"text":"就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛"},{"start":5301.621,"end":5309.635,"text":"那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民主"},{"start":5310.151,"end":5336.943,"text":"及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之"},{"start":5337.583,"end":5361.804,"text":"那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們"},{"start":5362.836,"end":5382.803,"text":"自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法"},{"start":5384.958,"end":5413.406,"text":"過去他們欠錢尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說他們讓他們的錢利更能夠更好更周圍這樣子好那請問一下主委我們現在平普族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口"},{"start":5414.627,"end":5434.88,"text":"這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元"},{"start":5437.041,"end":5464.1,"text":"是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好 更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好 那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記"},{"start":5466.441,"end":5486.173,"text":"當然明年的預算當然就是必須預算那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預註來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算"},{"start":5488.17,"end":5502.576,"text":"這個我想預算的部分嚴明會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以所以今天我們大家要其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要證明"},{"start":5503.496,"end":5527.087,"text":"可是你原有的原名的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底多少人會登記其實不是你能夠預測的萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算"},{"start":5528.328,"end":5556.747,"text":"所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想好不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦是可以嗎主委我們會我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬呢"},{"start":5558.995,"end":5572.971,"text":"所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外"},{"start":5573.571,"end":5594.066,"text":"還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障好 如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告"},{"start":5597.212,"end":5609.798,"text":"這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的規定這個要修憲 考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人 那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼"},{"start":5622.944,"end":5640.378,"text":"我們能做的先做 譬如說以語言先救 文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎 相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做"},{"start":5642.399,"end":5658.57,"text":"因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是應該有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實"},{"start":5672.057,"end":5684.007,"text":"聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套啦所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補主我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝喔謝謝委員好謝謝徐嶼森委員的資訊下一位我們請高金素美委員資訊"},{"start":5697.642,"end":5723.801,"text":"好 辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法"},{"start":5725.089,"end":5743.537,"text":"那麼執政黨自己呢 不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的 我心裡面的感觸"},{"start":5744.877,"end":5767.486,"text":"那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了"},{"start":5768.186,"end":5785.579,"text":"二 明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三 針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案"},{"start":5786.48,"end":5801.071,"text":"真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎"},{"start":5802.432,"end":5827.773,"text":"我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年原民會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法"},{"start":5828.473,"end":5855.47,"text":"可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然"},{"start":5857.111,"end":5883.424,"text":"主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施"},{"start":5884.344,"end":5898.761,"text":"我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏"},{"start":5899.902,"end":5913.996,"text":"講白了就是一拖再拖這要讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問各位報告"},{"start":5917.25,"end":5936.001,"text":"我們是希望在三年內能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用到三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣"},{"start":5936.923,"end":5957.22,"text":"好啦 我們拭目以待啦 我是非常懷疑啦因為呢 就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢 你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週 最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚 說什麼呢"},{"start":5961.343,"end":5990.412,"text":"原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會 諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法"},{"start":5991.152,"end":6006.07,"text":"自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公佈以來,原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任,說法律沒有授權,私有地不可以處理。"},{"start":6007.051,"end":6010.453,"text":"我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理"},{"start":6033.746,"end":6060.134,"text":"我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎"},{"start":6062.742,"end":6072.086,"text":"我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案 他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地"},{"start":6081.491,"end":6107.753,"text":"我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而"},{"start":6109.614,"end":6113.536,"text":"我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權"},{"start":6127.042,"end":6141.043,"text":"現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎"},{"start":6142.967,"end":6161.188,"text":"我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週"},{"start":6162.549,"end":6180.716,"text":"我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委6月底好原住民主要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發"},{"start":6188.314,"end":6213.599,"text":"最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號 你現在已經不到兩個月了吧不到兩個月吧我知道呢 園民會你們3月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢 行政院一直沒有正式回應您 對不對"},{"start":6214.799,"end":6237.395,"text":"還沒有 對嗎我們還繼續在 繼續在周四你知道嗎 上周四的時候 黃國昌主席他有質詢 他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內 就會提案請問主委 這是真的嗎 您知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":6238.075,"end":6262.906,"text":"因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主席長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主席長說黃國昌召委"},{"start":6266.741,"end":6293.171,"text":"在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個"},{"start":6294.676,"end":6300.084,"text":"有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院"},{"start":6301.664,"end":6324.963,"text":"第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼"},{"start":6326.328,"end":6348.31,"text":"我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對"},{"start":6349.724,"end":6372.35,"text":"如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊"},{"start":6373.27,"end":6389.725,"text":"這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠吞下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的"},{"start":6390.365,"end":6414.16,"text":"我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒您的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力"},{"start":6415.06,"end":6443.492,"text":"因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度"},{"start":6444.998,"end":6450.48,"text":"的預算夠不夠 按照現在原民會的預算夠嗎你認為 不夠 不夠對不對你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有十萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎 這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部 護政系統他們來協助我們 給你了嗎 有答應了嗎目前還沒有 我們還在申請 好 所以您看"},{"start":6473.416,"end":6490.944,"text":"光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎"},{"start":6492.83,"end":6519.021,"text":"有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面"},{"start":6520.273,"end":6536.705,"text":"負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會"},{"start":6540.327,"end":6558.692,"text":"從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等"},{"start":6559.452,"end":6576.757,"text":"又再等三年 一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案"},{"start":6581.238,"end":6601.793,"text":"所以希望 主委這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為 園民會包括您一直以來都很認真 都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點 平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情必須要行政院統籌"},{"start":6602.894,"end":6623.161,"text":"第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地"},{"start":6623.661,"end":6645.032,"text":"要不然的話 原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話 會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告 休息三分鐘"},{"start":6988.407,"end":6992.27,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 我們繼續請牛許廷召委發言謝謝主席 曾志勇主委有請主委好你已經到了 很好 謝謝主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查"},{"start":7007.352,"end":7025.206,"text":"那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實"},{"start":7026.127,"end":7043.178,"text":"就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏要怎麼樣來做掌握"},{"start":7044.299,"end":7071.231,"text":"這有一個數據來講我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補組預估人數各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說"},{"start":7072.752,"end":7092,"text":"現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點"},{"start":7093.973,"end":7108.16,"text":"有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續"},{"start":7109.241,"end":7128.665,"text":"且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦"},{"start":7136.668,"end":7162.916,"text":"還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下"},{"start":7163.759,"end":7189.281,"text":"兩個都有啊 要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口名簿只有九十八萬人嘛然後有 這其中有人會在乎有民族認同 有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁 以釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛 但是有的他是"},{"start":7190.629,"end":7214.833,"text":"並沒有註記喔 有一些 甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了 或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的 還什麼的 或者是塗黑的嘛對對對 這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起這叫交集嘛 對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起 其中有一項符合都算 那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個"},{"start":7216.209,"end":7243.325,"text":"都要符合捏都要符合喔那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦你來講應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下跟委員報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的"},{"start":7244.285,"end":7268.933,"text":"這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等"},{"start":7269.761,"end":7286.566,"text":"那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啊沒有我再給你補充說明一下再跟委員報告所謂的"},{"start":7287.54,"end":7308.97,"text":"大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的"},{"start":7309.811,"end":7329.046,"text":"那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓到不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多"},{"start":7330.467,"end":7343.062,"text":"好 那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件有多少人大概是多少 120 你來講一下"},{"start":7349.724,"end":7362.615,"text":"報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人"},{"start":7364.178,"end":7385.155,"text":"我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人"},{"start":7386.115,"end":7407.434,"text":"因為他是要一族一族一族的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛希臘雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好"},{"start":7409.861,"end":7431.262,"text":"我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛"},{"start":7432.063,"end":7460.151,"text":"那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎"},{"start":7461.533,"end":7470.32,"text":"你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了"},{"start":7472.093,"end":7499.209,"text":"我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億"},{"start":7500.53,"end":7527.726,"text":"當然要再增加11億嘛 對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛好 謝謝我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位我就剛剛講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以"},{"start":7529.969,"end":7531.119,"text":"可以做 就這樣了"},{"start":7532.395,"end":7560.092,"text":"所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是延民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛"},{"start":7560.984,"end":7590.275,"text":"就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平原很安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊"},{"start":7590.735,"end":7615.372,"text":"然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛 對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間 沒關係我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望 第一個 人數的數字要明確第二個 投入的資源要明確第三 其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說 我憑普足加入之後 他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會 你要做好心理準備捏"},{"start":7616.312,"end":7632.94,"text":"對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員謝謝劉昭偉的質詢也謝謝主委繼續呢我們請吳啟明委員質詢"},{"start":7643.015,"end":7663.012,"text":"好主席我們一位同仁請我們主委主委好主委針對我們今天討論的原住民的身份我們平補主的身份的法案那本席比較關心的就是我們上一次有有在推動就是進法補償"},{"start":7664.475,"end":7666.498,"text":"那進化補償從剛開始我們是2.4萬公頃那到2024就變成7.8萬公頃"},{"start":7679.949,"end":7708.478,"text":"那今兒我們從2萬3萬到目前的6萬但是你增加的這些工程那在本席這一邊最主要的說你認定的是2.4萬公頃那現在增加7.8公頃那裡面存在什麼意思存在了很多都是有人顧有人在炒作在本席這邊的資料真的非常不應該啊"},{"start":7710.962,"end":7730.583,"text":"在原住民他們的總人口他們所實際領到的只有16%那其他的都變成在大地主然後是不是還有人刻意去炒作去說過這些我們都要查也不能說政府的錢"},{"start":7731.804,"end":7750.27,"text":"就讓知情的人他們去炒作那這樣對我們整個原住民我們當初我們所設計出來的要給原住民的生活原住民的的地主他們能來領到這筆錢那你現在變成了整個都荒腔左反了請主委來做說明好這個我跟委員報告這個"},{"start":7758.331,"end":7780.042,"text":"淨化補償當然是從一開始的2.4公頃現在慢慢變成7.8公頃多有很多原因第一個就是後來也很多我們自己的原住民的族人他們的土地他們也都來只要符合這個規定他們就來申請做淨化補償這個是有的那志祺委員剛剛講的那個就是集中在少數的這個少數人來領取這個資源的話我們也有做整理"},{"start":7787.264,"end":7802.599,"text":"大概就是說這個超過5公頃的超過10公頃超過20公頃的大概佔這個比例大概是5%左右那我們希望就是說我們也會整理來追蹤超過20"},{"start":7805.41,"end":7823.357,"text":"超過20公頃是怎麼樣登記來我們在了解這個過程為什麼會有人登記到那麼多的公頃這個才是重點這個為什麼會有這樣子我們現在也在追查在本席的資料有一個人就掌握了160多公頃那這太遜了吧還有都集中在400多人"},{"start":7829.193,"end":7834.871,"text":"那這都不成比例啊那都證明都有人刻意在炒作啊"},{"start":7837.182,"end":7859.211,"text":"我們當初的設計是要給我們原住民他們那些岩墾籠這才有意義啊那你這樣就變成一些在炒作的你還是要去把它設定都不能這樣就讓他們說這對我們真正的原住民是一個非常不公平的事啊"},{"start":7860.532,"end":7884.305,"text":"對,這個就失去了營運,所以我們現在正在勤查做盤查跟委員報告就是說到底為什麼會集中在個人其他,當然有的是透過買賣有的是透過是正義還有繼承,那我們現在會把它整理起來就是說不希望這樣的這個炒作變成是集中在少數幾個人這樣那就失去了這個,失去了這個營運"},{"start":7885.546,"end":7911.78,"text":"要給我們原住民他們增加他們的收入對他們以前彌補 以前對他們不公平的那你現在都是集中在400多人 還有一個人佔了160多公頃那這真的是太離譜了吧我們希望 主委你一定要去徹查要是炒作的話 我們政府就沒必要發這筆錢好不好"},{"start":7915.031,"end":7934.385,"text":"這一定要很嚴謹去徹查然後再來就是我請問一下主委我們的國際機場那個A13現在做好了我聽說整個品質也不是很好廠商進駐的意願也不高那現在整個營運的狀況怎樣"},{"start":7936.186,"end":7939.268,"text":"這是桃園市政府當初跟會議員申請的計劃目前已經在去年的8月1號正式營運了"},{"start":7951.827,"end":7974.833,"text":"這是因為我的資料裡面它還有漏水的問題啊還有整個工程的品質的問題啊這個部分桃園市政府正在跟OT的廠商還有就是說當初施作的廠商在做協調跟處理因為我們花了十億啊 十億這也是很大的金額啊我們一定要負責監督"},{"start":7976.707,"end":8004.166,"text":"既然就已經做了那整個營運的狀況也不是很理想那都是我們要去改進的好不好那主委你那個針對那個靜瓦補償那個少數人一定要去徹查好不好這樣才比較公平不然我們原住民山區我也知道對靜瓦補償我從來都是支持但是有一點就是我們是要落實真正的在原住民身上好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8008.103,"end":8026.115,"text":"謝謝物其林委員的諮詢下一位我們請張志倫委員諮詢張志倫委員好 報告 張志倫委員改書面諮詢下一位我們請鄭天才委員諮詢好 早安 委員好你好 大家好"},{"start":8038.089,"end":8067.183,"text":"首先要謝謝我們召委這個高精素美委員還有我分別拜託了召委好幾次終於安排了這個今天的審查會這個平埔原住民的法案事實上這個在106年9月22號行政院就函送了原住民身份法的修正草案"},{"start":8067.953,"end":8077.681,"text":"送到立法院在內政委員會召開了106年11號106年12月20號106年12月21號107年12月24號四次的委員會議終於送出去但是民進黨團在立法院絕對多數但是並沒有列入二讀三讀的審查所以沒有三讀通過所以才會憲法的"},{"start":8097.602,"end":8108.326,"text":"這個接下來的這個判決之所以沒有通過我不知道但是一定是認為此事體大好這個憲法的判決111年10月28號做成的111年憲判制第17號判決三年內要完成這個"},{"start":8122.818,"end":8150.937,"text":"修法或者是另訂專法為了這個部分本席也曾經質詢過卓榮泰院長甚至這個寫信給陳時中政務委員也寫信給卓榮泰院長要趕快把平埔原住民族群身份法趕快送來吹了又吹終於這個我們今天可以審查了"},{"start":8152.537,"end":8181.497,"text":"好 演兵會的報告裡面特別提到就是這個憲法判決裡面也提到這個斟酌國家資源的分配當然也要看平埔族群平埔原住民的相關的這些這個生活發展的一個情形要另以法律定制這個我們賴會員賴委賴會員所提的說要適用原住民族教育法"},{"start":8182.735,"end":8209.591,"text":"這個部分演民會也有做了一個說明事實上我們要很很明確的要很明確的會影響最起碼幾例就幾例光我們現在的原住民三眼平眼就讀大專學生的出債協力沿漢之間差距34%"},{"start":8212.168,"end":8240.662,"text":"而且是從107閒年度的31%點多還持續的在增加拉大這個紀律對我們原住民族的教育程度的提升會嚴重的很大的影響所以我們有時候要用透過數字數據來讓這個相關的委員或是其他的社會大眾的了解影響會很大"},{"start":8241.906,"end":8269.936,"text":"好這個行政院版評普原住民族群身份法你的第22條啊明定適用原住民族語言發展法及原住民族傳統自衛創作保護條例原住民族傳統自衛創作保護條例沒有問題但是對於原住民族語言發展法看起來沒有問題事實上如果我們細看原住民族語言發展法第25條"},{"start":8271.65,"end":8299.449,"text":"就提到原住民參與公務人員特種考試公費留學考試 應取得原住民族語言能力認證這個就會有解釋的問題啊因為你寫適用嘛既然適用了這個原住民族語言發展法那就要他取得認證 就要他就可以考原住民行政特考啊公費留學考試啊像這個第26條"},{"start":8301.516,"end":8328.612,"text":"原住民族研發展法第26政府機關公立學校及公營事業機構依原住民族工作權保障法進入人員是應優先雇用既原住民族以言能力認證平埔原住民他也會以言能力認證他通過了之後我有啊然後你要讓我適用這個所以會有這樣的一個爭議所以要很謹慎"},{"start":8331.505,"end":8356.936,"text":"所以本席的版本是準用準用會更嚴謹就不會到時候也產生這些爭議這個我們來討論的時候審查條文的時候要去留意還有一個很重要的很重要的行政院版是說政府因本法施行後三年內"},{"start":8358.533,"end":8387.083,"text":"充分考量各評估原住民族群以其成員之歷史發展脈絡及現況並斟酌國家資源分配這個部分都是憲法法庭的判決後面這邊制定或修正相關法例保障其政治參與交通水利衛生醫療經濟土地及社會福利等權利看起來是沒有什麼問題符合憲法法庭的判決"},{"start":8388.188,"end":8413.099,"text":"但是會慢你還要去每一個法例去你到底要制定什麼法例也不明確所以本席的版本直接就寫制定平埔原住民族群基本法等法例或修正相關的法例來保障這些以下的為什麼呢"},{"start":8414.042,"end":8437.696,"text":"你直接提出平埔原住民族群基本法就可以很明確的知道哪些是需要制定的在這個基本法裡面就會有所有的就會有所有的權益的保障或是都會在這裡面會更明確所以這個部我們設法"},{"start":8438.615,"end":8467.059,"text":"我们要想办法去协调人民会协调相关的委员下次审查的时候能够朝这个方向就会很清楚直接提出草案大家讨论平普原住民族族群基本法大家直接可以讨论何况立法院已经商读通过了新住民的基本法所以这个部分是一个很好的"},{"start":8467.925,"end":8497.101,"text":"應該往這個方向去努力才能夠充分的保障時間的關係譬如說很快的本習及國民黨的立委已經提案修憲了徵修條保障平埔原住民的立法委員的名額這個叫修憲今天你都有提到那個涉及到修憲超過38個人的立委已經連署了"},{"start":8498.252,"end":8527.738,"text":"這個就是我們要積極的積極的去去推動積極的去推動包括地方製度法知道嗎地方製度法三條我們已經把它本來是要總額原住民的立委三年平年原住民的議員的名額本來是在總額之內我們去年已經把它修了總額之外啦"},{"start":8529.415,"end":8555.454,"text":"總而之外了所以要修地方制度法增加平埔原住民的一年的名額就很容易了所以這個不我們要把它充分的說出來讓平埔原住民能夠知道我們是真正為他們爭取錢我們是積極的來去爭取錢因為不要一直牽扯在"},{"start":8556.451,"end":8583.377,"text":"要不要適用原住民族基本法我們直接就制定平埔原住民族群基本法那才是一個更快 而不是在那邊爭執 好不好我們可以明確的往前是不是這樣好可以嗎可以 可以我們進入這個條文的實質審查的時候再來因為你都沒有聲音不好啊 還要有紀錄謝謝啊 謝謝好 蔡責任蔡責任加油加油"},{"start":8585.452,"end":8594.611,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":8605.719,"end":8620.07,"text":"我們要請教一下我們的主委我們延民會為了推動原住民人權保障的業務"},{"start":8621.371,"end":8639.621,"text":"推動的工作 設有人權工作小組但在延民會官網上 我們看到最新的記錄還留在2023年第三的會議但根據我們延民會的"},{"start":8641.542,"end":8670.782,"text":"原住民委員會人權工作小組設立的要點在每六個月最少需要召開一次的會議但是目前我們官網公開的資料就是最後一次就是這個日期所以我們在2023年11月9號就是距離現在就是遠遠超過我們的設定要點所以說這個半年請問一下我目前超過"},{"start":8671.782,"end":8690.005,"text":"一年半的時間我們延民會這邊的人權工作到底是有沒有召開這都是問號再問號啦所以再回應一下好 謝謝委員其實我們都有看不過更細的是不是那個我們的處長"},{"start":8690.766,"end":8709.754,"text":"就更清楚的這個說明好跟委員報告就是2024年的我們有按規定每六個月開一次但是我們就是可能漏掉了把那個會議紀錄上傳到網站那2025年的部分因為我們委員任期到所以上半年我們在聆聘委員聆聘之後我們會按照那個規定再召開這個委員會議"},{"start":8712.648,"end":8736.566,"text":"所以你們有召開都沒有更新要開什麼不知道所以如果有開的話為什麼公開的會議記錄會停留在2023年我還要注意到第三個會期記錄裡面我們的出席的小組委員像剛才你說的但是我們只共十位兩位請假"},{"start":8739.128,"end":8746.801,"text":"六位人代表六位是代表來開會的不是本人所以主委這個比例"},{"start":8747.858,"end":8772.891,"text":"要收管嗎所以我們小組委員是由組委聘任的像我們組委上任後呢小組的會議有無這些有沒有到齊了或者有積極去推動嗎因為我們沒看到你講的我們也沒有看到網路都沒有了你們怎麼樣去開會或者這樣子的比例是開會有效嗎各位報告"},{"start":8777.805,"end":8795.173,"text":"剛剛講的這些我們的會議記錄有一些就是我們有開但是沒有上網的我們會補足很快的我們回去趕快補足那至於這些代理的是會裡面的主管是代理外聘的委員還是一樣的出席開會你是說外聘的是沒有代理是內聘的有代理這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":8806.505,"end":8831.782,"text":"如果是內聘的代理的話 大家都要送班來開會都沒有來 還找別人代理這個叫內聘嗎不是 科學院處長他有其他的業務來代理的大部分都是科長以上一年要開兩次會 就是還有其他的所以這些都不重要 不重要這個委員還要嗎"},{"start":8835.485,"end":8840.485,"text":"這個我回去會再要求跟委員包括我們回去要求就是不可以這樣子都是代理的啦"},{"start":8841.571,"end":8845.813,"text":"對啊 因為代理是說外聘還是內聘 我們這小組裡面十個人就是兩個請假 六個代理所以這個是開這個會 是沒有開還是有開 開的效率如何 也不敢放在網路所以這個真的是我們覺得這樣子的"},{"start":8867.144,"end":8882.142,"text":"所以說你說根據我們這樣子的重要規定就是不僅是拍刃還有就是繼續這樣子的方式的話我們覺得說我們前任委員有沒有續聘"},{"start":8883.644,"end":8895.137,"text":"或者是說所有的小組有沒有按照這樣子去開所以我們今年在審查預算我也注意到我們延民會不管便利預算的計畫還有就是說我們的推動上"},{"start":8899.381,"end":8902.804,"text":"都是說經常讓人覺得說 人民會相當就是不消極很敷衍 不認真 所以我們覺得說連我們剛才你說的 連內聘都不把這個當一回事所以我們覺得說這樣的小組為了配合行政院的人權保障 收集的督導"},{"start":8922.759,"end":8927.922,"text":"我們原住民族是說司法我們的人權但是我們種族歧視等的爭議案件我覺得是非常重要的一件事情希望我們原民會要更積極才真正的讓我們原住民朋友的權利真的有保障因為這個是人權的委員會開到你六六 我們的人權在哪裡"},{"start":8948.894,"end":8976.473,"text":"所以這個部分我希望是我們的主委真的要重視啦好第二個就是要想要請問一下今天的我們的憲法法庭在11年的宣判原住民身份違憲後依法在3年內要完成這個修法還有另外訂一個特別法今年10月就是到期限了所以呢在我們"},{"start":8977.794,"end":8980.296,"text":"言明會在五頁積極業務報告中也說到務實推動原住民主法的體系"},{"start":8989.262,"end":9009.513,"text":"體系制度所以我們報告上也有寫113年開始在辦了九場一見徵詢會議請問這個會議中有多少現有的原住民族代表還有有多少真正的就是來自平埔"},{"start":9010.476,"end":9037.909,"text":"體系組的這個評補組的族人參與或有就是目前掌握的人數還有我們的會議質詢的族人占比了多少但是我們都沒有看到所以我們希望說真的要聽大家的意見還有參加嗎不是用講的所以我們希望這個真正就是聽大家的意見"},{"start":9040.515,"end":9053.474,"text":"我們所有的座談會會議紀錄也會在網站上來呈現而且我親自去主持的就是一定是平埔原住民的族人來參加"},{"start":9054.471,"end":9081.051,"text":"那當然有一些場是人比較多比如說像台南有到七八十個人至少七八十個人來那最少都超過五十個人參加不但是只有平埔原住民的族群我們召開原來的山地原住民跟平地原住民我們也召開五場因為這個多少他們也要讓他們感受到就是說他們也要表達意見對這個平埔原住民生物法草案的這個就是說"},{"start":9084.033,"end":9093.003,"text":"成立之後這個成立之後發布之後對他們有什麼影響我們也必須要做說明所以跟委員報告我們會在網站上來呈現參加的人數還有內容我們會補齊對還有他們的就是我們的群體的意見因為目前已經有九個提出"},{"start":9105.636,"end":9122.34,"text":"就是我們的民主的識別申請嘛這是我們但是我們的就是屬南島語系的民主制其他的原住民民主也是在這個這個這一群寫者共同發表的聲明呼應主管機構應該禁訴依法核定並公報"},{"start":9126.881,"end":9131.142,"text":"避免就是延遲了我們族群的權利所以說如果你有這樣子去開會那很多人為什麼還有說在報告中就看到的是我們的特政研議辦理我們民主認定的程序作業目前研議的如何還有審查的時間多長"},{"start":9151.808,"end":9155.11,"text":"如果是有明確的話為什麼還有人再來去所以我們希望說在實務推動不只是法規的訂定而且說在乎整體的政策資源排擠還有重新分配我們要請教我們的主委說在我們掌握的"},{"start":9171.159,"end":9192.433,"text":"平埔組人口數多少還有未來增加這個組別的時候必須我們延民會現有的配置資源會不會不夠是否已經佔用的人數有向行政院爭取這些的預算嗎我們平埔組未來"},{"start":9194.075,"end":9204.062,"text":"經特別法認定族群公告後取得身份是否直接應用原住民族的基本法有無就是銜接應用的問題這個都是到目前為止報告中我們是沒有看到的"},{"start":9211.957,"end":9225.787,"text":"我跟委員報告你當然我們現在在盤點那最重要是這個法這個法過了之後我們立刻就做後面的這些這些工作當然我們已經都準備好了準備好了他今天要三年準備什麼時候"},{"start":9227.188,"end":9230.429,"text":"準備好我們到今天報告也沒看到所以我們希望我們就是目前有區分啦剛才我們也有我們的政委也有說我們分就是山地原住民平地原住民未來新增了平埔族的後呢我們原住民後我們如何在倡政權還有不論就是任何我們的種族的"},{"start":9254.277,"end":9260.101,"text":"就是都要平等的參與所以原住民是否針對就是我們平埔族的族群整體的規劃不管是社會福利、教育輔助或者文化的傳承與鼓勵的方案如果有的話這個部分因為已經快三年了現在來排但是我們看到報告裡面都沒有了所以說你準備好這好到一、好到二、好到好這個我們都沒看到"},{"start":9282.336,"end":9284.98,"text":"所以說如果真的剛剛的這些討論議題如果我們原住民內部都有討論希望你真的拿出來讓大家覺得是說不要耍傻所以說我們必須說只要就是"},{"start":9299.438,"end":9302.922,"text":"判限我們的我們這個針對這個憲法跟對這個需求我們一定要真正的落實不要等我們朝委在排的時候你也拿不出東西拿不出東西就說有有有我們就看不出來所以我們希望真正的屬於我們原住民的"},{"start":9321.228,"end":9337.072,"text":"的需求還有說不同族群的權利我們主委更用心的啦最後是不是讓我們有一些我們的會議資料等等是不是我們補充一份給我們麥委員好不好好好所以要拜託一下謝謝好謝謝麥委員最後我們請徐信委員質詢"},{"start":9351.46,"end":9376.218,"text":"好 謝謝主席那曾主委好曾主委好好 曾主委今天本席想要就原住民未成年少女的關懷來向您提出質詢我們很希望每位原住民的少女都能夠像高山百合那樣盛開然後像朝陽一般的燦爛"},{"start":9377.728,"end":9397.231,"text":"本席先請教你,你知道我要問什麼問題嗎?你們有沒有發現原住民少女有哪些你們沒有做好,而且很有問題的?原住民少女的相關關懷,在你們是哪一個單位?"},{"start":9398.464,"end":9425.212,"text":"在這裡 社福處是不是叫做什麼 社福處那跟委員報告沒有 我是請問主委沒關係 你知道社福處就好主委 您知不知道有沒有在注意一些很多人關心原住民各方面上次本席質詢問您這個原住民學生退學的問題你也不知道數據那原住民少女有什麼問題 你知道嗎"},{"start":9426.724,"end":9435.809,"text":"是不是有些家暴的問題家暴所以你知道有家暴問題然後還有呢大概是家庭的問題什麼的問題家庭這個是我等一下要講的現在我們看到今天戶政司也來了內政部戶政司的一個數據"},{"start":9456.683,"end":9478.179,"text":"2021年全國15到19歲的少女生育15到19歲她就開始生育的這個比率全國的比率全國這樣的少女的比率是千分之3.5那你知道原住民少女這樣的比率是多少嗎你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":9482.394,"end":9508.873,"text":"應該是2到3倍 錯 4到5倍所以這麼高 17.2人家3.5 你們17.2所以剛剛主委你不敢講我聽到旁邊的幕僚說原住民未成年少女有什麼問題除了家庭暴力 他再講了一些問題所以你知道家庭的問題 那現在"},{"start":9511.066,"end":9518.379,"text":"顯然你們沒有注意那這一個問題你們覺得可以怎麼樣來來防治或者是來改善"},{"start":9520.919,"end":9546.365,"text":"當然即刻我們就是要求就是我們的散佈在各個縣市的原家中心我們要他們原家中心我們要他們去追蹤 要他們去去追蹤 宣導然後包括我們的這個你要宣導什麼 重點是宣導嘛他們的問題你們要解決其實這些少女 你看她才十幾歲要去關懷"},{"start":9549.113,"end":9574.948,"text":"要去關懷,你怎麼關懷?我想請教,你們有沒有可能建立原住民少女陪伴員的制度?可不可以?原家社工就可以囉,還有社工員也可以可是你社工都沒有掌握啊,才會這樣比例,你看比一般我們全國的數據高出這麼多"},{"start":9576.519,"end":9604.226,"text":"特別是原住民少女我相信你們應該要很清楚從國中到高中他的一個銜接期很多人會離鄉寄宿所以他面臨了孤立還有歧視所以產生他高等於是很早就生育的這種高風險點很多學者都研究這個數據也一直有但是我沒有看到你們在重視"},{"start":9608.005,"end":9635.917,"text":"這個謝謝委員的指教我們即刻就說要馬上要加護中心還有我們的社工園要去追蹤而且剛剛講委員講的希望解決他們的問題你追蹤是針對已經有這樣的你繼續關懷他那你不能讓這種情況一直發生所以你要去找那個根源嘛那很多少女他如果有陪伴園制度他有孤立無援的時候他才有人可以"},{"start":9638.041,"end":9663.255,"text":"這種投訴或者是尋求對他的支援啊所以你們那個原家中心的那個是叫輔導員社工員他對我們很多的這樣的一個少女他平常他也沒有辦法掌握啊我們會要求啦你要怎麼要求那你在執行面有沒有辦法"},{"start":9666.57,"end":9689.088,"text":"好 你剛剛有講家暴 那家庭問題 很多還有失能家庭的問題 你們要怎麼解決好 那跟委員報告齁 那因為我們現在已經納入到社會安全網裡面那我們原家中心跟主流的社福中心是兩個齁 合作那我們現在針對齁 只要是說在家庭當中 個案當中我早就預期你們會講合作你合作的結果就是數據一直增加 不行嘛"},{"start":9689.857,"end":9715.391,"text":"所以我們原家中心222個社工園當中也會讓我們所有在前面的預防的一些相關宣導會做每年大概我們的場次大概都有一百多場以上社福那邊是不是在衛福部是的所以那我接著再請教主委你有沒有形成一個跨部會的一個機制因為這個跟原民會教育部甚至衛福部都有關啊"},{"start":9715.991,"end":9729.01,"text":"有你們有形成這個跨部會的機制那本席可不可以要求就是說原住民少女生活照顧撫育或輔導的這樣的機制有沒有"},{"start":9733.428,"end":9757.756,"text":"特別針對原住民因為我們現在都有跟衛福部有一個聯繫會議我們本身也有推動這個小組那我們會相關就是針對一些像這種你那個推動小組在哪裡在你們我們會內也有就是針對人民會裡面對 會內也有那你現在全國這樣散下去你們怎麼掌握因為我們現在各地方政府當中也有一些33位的督導那有"},{"start":9759.177,"end":9773.788,"text":"66個原家中心所以我們固定都有一個聯繫會議在掌握這些事情可是掌握你有沒有落實嘛是我們會加強落實那請問因為有關家庭暴力貧窮或者是要飲酒飲都可能是"},{"start":9774.548,"end":9797.705,"text":"增加原住民少女提早生育的風險那你們有沒有投入針對他們的祖父母或是他們的這種創傷療癒的計畫來強化家庭的支持能夠阻斷這種這麼多少女他自己身心都沒有發展成熟你就讓他生育"},{"start":9798.465,"end":9808.958,"text":"是 因為這個是一個個案是從一個家庭個案當中因為我們講的Case就是個案會從個案當中他所有家庭的成員當中都會去幫他做一個處遇"},{"start":9810.734,"end":9836.848,"text":"那可是你們平常對原住民這種家庭有這種家庭暴力不能有了個案才開始那就是發生了我指的是你知道嘛哪些家庭有家庭暴力這一定會知道嘛或真的特別貧窮的還有藥飲跟酒飲我真的不希望我第五會期還會在這因為下個會期很快就到了我給你們一些時間"},{"start":9838.309,"end":9857.667,"text":"這一塊拜託好不好來加強我們自己原住民的孩子對不對他們這麼年少可不可以給他們一個很美好很燦爛很陽光的人生好嗎好謝謝加油謝謝好謝謝徐信英委員的諮詢"},{"start":9859.924,"end":9887.02,"text":"報告委員會登記發言委員除不在常則以外其餘均已發言完畢我們詢答到此結束張志倫委員高金素美委員蘇巧慧委員丁學忠委員所提書面質詢我們都列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢以及剛剛質詢未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會報告委員會本次會議僅進行法案條文宣讀現在請宣讀討論事項所列法案之條文請宣讀"},{"start":9888.959,"end":9917.983,"text":"法名称行政院提案委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均为平普原住民族群身份法第一条行政院提案为认定平普原住民族群保障平普原住民身份认同权特制定本法委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案同行政院提案第二条行政院提案本法所称主管机关在中央委员原住民族委员会在指辖市为指辖市政府在县市为县市政府委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":9918.603,"end":9944.253,"text":"第三条行政院提案本法用词定义如下依平普原住民族群指宪法增修条文第四条第二项第一款规定所称山地原住民及平地原住民之外寄存于台湾同属南岛语系民族之其他台湾原住民族其民族语言习俗传统等文化特征至今仍然存续其成员仍维持族群认同且有客观历史记录可及并依其民族医院申请中央主管器官报请行政院核定者"},{"start":9945.013,"end":9971.928,"text":"2.评普原住民指评普原住民族群之个人依本法规定登记取得评普原住民身份者委员林一景等提案同行政院提案委员赖会员等提案同行政院提案并着作文字修正第四条行政院提案政府应办理评普原住民族群社会及经济状况调查并应于各项调查统计及专题分析纳入评普原住民族群政府办理评普原住民族群相关事务时应符合宪法增修条文特于保障"},{"start":9972.288,"end":9996.02,"text":"原住民族之文化之意旨避免反于历史事实及国际保护原住民族潮流委员林一锦等提案委员赖会员等提案军统行政院提案第五条行政院提案平补原住民族群之核定由申请人简句申请书市民下列事项并简附有关佐证资料向中央主管机关提出依该民族之语言习俗传统等文化特征至今仍然存续"},{"start":9996.48,"end":10025.115,"text":"二该民族之成员仍维持族群认同三有客观历史记录佐证该民族为寄存于台湾之南岛与西民族四该民族成员之身份认定要件前项申请人为自然人者因为成年并有三十人以上为经合法立案之人民团体者应付立案证书为拎起等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第六条行政院提案前条第一项第一款锁定文化特征至今仍然存续之审查基准如下一申请民族之"},{"start":10025.855,"end":10048.625,"text":"民族语言习俗传统及其他文化特征具独特性二申请民族之成员兼就前款文化特征有持续实践之民族文化活动或生活事实委员林一锦等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第七条行政院提案第五条第一项第二款所定为持族群认同之审查基准如下一申请民族之成员有意愿组成特定原住民族"},{"start":10049.065,"end":10070.22,"text":"二申请民族之成员有显著认同自身为该族群体成员之自我意识并有与其文化认同有关之客观事实可自证明委员林毅进等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第八条行政院提案第五条第一项第三款所定客观历史记录指下列各款规定之一者一申请民族之成员本人或其直系写清"},{"start":10070.68,"end":10085.804,"text":"尊卿属于日治时期户籍资料内有收评或其他足以证明其属于台湾南岛语系民族之登记或登记形式二申请民族之成员本人或其直系写信尊卿属于日治时期户籍资料以外之政府公文书资料内"},{"start":10086.164,"end":10100.443,"text":"有足以证明其属于台湾南岛语系民族之资讯三申请民族之成员本人或其直系写亲尊亲属于公司立大专业校院或学术研究机构之研究成果内有足以证明其属于南岛台湾南岛语系民族之资讯"},{"start":10105.066,"end":10124.658,"text":"第九条行政院提案第五条第一项第四款锁定身份认定要件至审查基准如下一要件应具体明确二要件应有助于促进原住民族文化认同之目的三要件应符合比例原则主管机关应将第五条第一项第四款事项于政府公报及机关网站公告周知供任何人以书面或于指定网站表达意见"},{"start":10125.078,"end":10142.374,"text":"其公告期间不得少于30日中央主管机关应会及前项意见转交申请人就参彩请行提供回应或说明并入后续审议之参考委员林毅进等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十条行政院提案中央主管机关为审议第五条之申请案件"},{"start":10142.774,"end":10169.253,"text":"应邀请相关领域之专家学者组成审议会依第六条至第九条规定之审查基准进行审议前向审议会委员因为11人以上任意性别委员不得少于总额三分之一第一项之审议应经前向委员总额三分之二以上参与委员现有总额过半数同意审议会做成审议结果前应邀请申请人与申请民族之成员及直辖市县市主管机关陈述意见并得召开公听会委员"},{"start":10171.345,"end":10194.099,"text":"委员林英景等提案删除第三项,原第四项一列第三项,其余同行政院提案,委员赖会员等提案同行政院提案。第十一条行政院提案,中央主管机关就前条第一项之审议结果,应报请行政院核定并将行政院核定结果通知申请人,刊登政府公报,其公开与机关网站广泛周知,委员林英景等提案,委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":10194.739,"end":10218.244,"text":"第十二条行政院提案依前条规定和定为平补援助民族群者其民族成员身份认定要件由主管机关公告五年必要时经中央主管机关征询该民族意愿后得在延长公告期间一次延长公告期间以五年为限符合前项公告之民族成员身份认定要件者得于公告期间检据相关事证项指辖市县市主管机关申请登在于该族民族成员名册"},{"start":10218.764,"end":10245.897,"text":"直辖市县市主管机关就前项申请之处理期间为二个月有意义时的喊请中央主管机关协助前三项民族成员身份认定要建制公告与征询民族意愿之方式登载民族成员名册之作业程序及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之委员林英景等提案同行政院提案委员赖会员等提案第一项前段之由主管机关公告五年修正为由主管机关公告二十年其余同行政院提案"},{"start":10246.957,"end":10271.749,"text":"第十三条行政院提案本法实行前已依其他法令核定制民族别其成员未依原住民身份法规定取得原住民身份者得依本法规定取得得依本法申请取得平补原住民族成员之身份并得不适用第五条第一项第一款至第三款规定本法实行前已提出平补原住民族群核定制申请尚未经核定者依第六条至第十二条规定办理"},{"start":10272.429,"end":10287.468,"text":"为林一景等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十四条行政院提案经登在于第十二条规定之民族成员名册者得依第二十一条规定申请取得评普员住民身份为林一景等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":10288.168,"end":10307.254,"text":"第十五条行政院提案附货母为平埔原住民且符合下列各款规定之一者得取得平埔原住民身份一取用附货母所属平埔原住民族群之传统名字二取用汉人姓名并以原住民族文字并列附货母所属平埔原住民族群之传统名字"},{"start":10307.754,"end":10322.341,"text":"三从具评补原住民身份之父或母之姓依前项第二款规定取得评补原住民身份其子女从其姓者依依同款规定取得评补原住民身份委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":10322.961,"end":10348.921,"text":"第十六条行政院提案非原住民今年满四十岁且无子女之原住民双亲共同收养双亲之一据评补原住民身份且符合下列各款规定者得取得评补原住民身份一当事人被收养时未满七岁二取用或以原住民族文字并列据评补原住民身份收养者所属原住民族之传统名字或从据评补原住民身份收养者之姓本法施行前未满七岁之非原住民为"},{"start":10349.682,"end":10365.639,"text":"原住民双亲收养者不不受前项双亲需年满四十岁且无子女规定之限制为离境等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十七条平补原住民有下列情形之一者丧失平补原住民身份一"},{"start":10366.5,"end":10394.661,"text":"一第十五条规定取得平补原住民身份后应变更姓名之位符合该规定二一前条规定取得平补原住民身份后终止收养关系三成年后申请放弃平补原住民身份曾因前项第三款规定申请放弃并丧失平补原住民身份且无同项第一款或第二款规定情事者得申请回复平补原住民身份其回复以一次为限一第一项第三款规定申请丧失平补原住民身份者"},{"start":10395.041,"end":10417.886,"text":"其申请时之执系写清被清除之评补原住民身份不丧失委员领警等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十八条行政院提案未取得评补原住民身份评补原住民身份当事人依本法取用并列评补原住民族群之传统名字或从信未成年时由法定代理人书面约定申请成年后依个人意愿申请"},{"start":10418.286,"end":10436.938,"text":"不受民法第1059条第1项第4项第1078条第1项第2项及姓名条例第1条第2项规定之限制依前项规定申请取得评普员住民身份除出生登记外未成年时及成年后各以一次为限委员领警等提案委员赖会员等提案军统行政院提案"},{"start":10437.458,"end":10459.171,"text":"第十九条 行政院提案 评普原住民身份别 非依法律规定不得变更 父母属于不同原住民身份别者 子女未成年时由法定代理人书面约定 或成年后一个人意愿登记或变更身份别 前项规定 于依第十六条规定取得评普原住民身份者不适用之 委员林英景等提案 委员赖会员等提案 均同行政院提案"},{"start":10460.211,"end":10482.24,"text":"第20条行政院提案评普原住民因依其父母父后母之所属评普原住民族群登记其民族别其评普原住民传统名字或重新依与其登记之民族别相关联前项民族别之登记变更及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":10482.68,"end":10499.673,"text":"第21条行政院提案,评估原住民身份之取得丧失变更及回复之申请,由户政事务所受理,审查符合规定后,于户籍资料内登记其身份别及名字别,并于登记后发生效力,委员林一景等提案,委员赖会员等提案,均同行政院提案。"},{"start":10500.453,"end":10522.051,"text":"为01警等提案第22条因户籍登记错误脱漏或其他原因误登记为平补原住民身份或漏位登记为平补原住民身份者当事人户籍所在地之户证事务所应运之息后书面通知当事人为撤销或更正之登记或由当事人向户籍所在地之户证事务所申请查明并为撤销或更正之登记"},{"start":10523.012,"end":10549.866,"text":"第二十二条行政院提案评估原住民族群语言及文化之保障适用原住民族语言发展法及原住民族传统智慧创作保护条例政府应维护保存及发展评普原住民族群文化制定政策及规划区域发展时应评估对评普原住民族群文化之冲击影响并确保评普原住民之权益及发展各级教育主管机关应本于多元平等自主尊重之原则"},{"start":10550.266,"end":10569.614,"text":"并考量平补原住民族群历史正义及转型正义之需求推动相关教育政策促进全体国民认识与尊重平补原住民族群并得鼓励补助非盈利之机构法人或团体对社会大众进行平补原住民族群及多元文化教育委员李英景等提案第23条同行政院提案"},{"start":10570.214,"end":10597.957,"text":"委员赖会员等提案第一项修正为平补原住民族群语言及文化之保障适用原住民族语言发展法原住民族传统智慧创作保护条例及原住民族教育法其余同行政院提案第23条行政院提案政府应于本法施行后三年内充分考量各平补原住民族群与其成员之历史发展脉络及现况并斟酌国家资源分配制定或修正相关法律保障其政治参与交通水利"},{"start":10598.678,"end":10622.3,"text":"卫生医疗经济土地及社会福利等权利委员林一锦等提案第24条前段之政府应运本法施行后三年内修正为二年内其余同行政院提案委员赖会员等提案同林委员林一锦等提案第24条第24条行政院提案本法自公布日施行委员赖会员等提案委员林一锦等提案第25条均同行政院提案宣读完毕"},{"start":10625.008,"end":10631.882,"text":"好謝謝那我們就做以下決議討論事項所列議案我們另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16792","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db271ac346a99ec21c802c785c9e4cb8617f81bba30f51cec22ed89db6c158da6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員何欣純等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第四條、第六條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員羅美玲等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案。\n二、審查本院委員黃捷等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-06-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-06-30T08:30:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-06-30T12:22:00+08:00","duration":13893,"影片長度":"03:51:33","委員發言時間":"08:30:27 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請相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會2.本院委員何欣淳等19人理據外國專業人才延攬及雇用法第12條及第14條條文修正查案3.本院委員陳廷宇等16人理據外國專業人才延攬及雇用法第4條第6條及第14條條文修正查案4.本院委員蔡玉儀等17人理據外國專業人才延攬及雇用法修正查案"},{"start":2785.017,"end":2785.859,"text":"請問各位同仁上次會議輸入有錯誤"},{"start":2798.373,"end":2823.062,"text":"好沒有的話議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項一繼續審查一行政院行情審議外國專業人才延攬及雇用法修正查案二本院委員何欣淳等19人理據外國專業人才延攬及雇用法第12條及第14條條文修正查案三本院委員陳庭英菲等16人理據外國專業人才延攬及雇用法第4條第6條及第14條條文修正查案"},{"start":2823.782,"end":2824.363,"text":"本日議程討論四項所列議案"},{"start":2845.699,"end":2867.617,"text":"經濟社會福利及衛生環境教育及文化三個委員會在6月18日第一次聯席會議中已經詢答完畢那之後院會又交付黃婕委員提案版本我們今日一起並案審查我們先請議事人員宣讀所有條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":2871.889,"end":2896.046,"text":"外国专业人才延揽及雇佣法修正草案行政院提案第一条同现行条文第一条第二条同现行条文第二条第三条同现行条文第三条第四条除第二款具装国防后增加逗号数位等字其余同现行条文第四条第五条第一项第二具修正为除本法另有规定外第五项删除其余同现行条文第五条"},{"start":2896.826,"end":2917.677,"text":"第6條除第2具修正委或教育部公告世界大學排名前1000名大學之學士以上學位者其餘同線型條文第6條第7條除第2項第3具修正委經內政部移民署許可永久居留者其餘同線型條文第7條第8條同線型條文第8條第9條同線型條文第9條第10條除第1項第2具刪除"},{"start":2922.82,"end":2942.612,"text":"不经雇主申请等文字其余同现行条文第十条第十一条外国人于最近五年内取得教育部公告世界大学排名前200名大学之学士以上学位者得进向劳动部申请许可在我国从事专业工作其许可期间最长为二年"},{"start":2943.132,"end":2959.874,"text":"且不得延期及重新申請請向外國人經內政部移民署許可居留者其外僑居留證之有效期間自許可之一日起算最長為二年第一項申請之工作資格審查基準申請許可廢止許可"},{"start":2960.478,"end":2979.094,"text":"聘雇管理及其他相关事项之办法由劳动部会商主管机关定之第十二条外国人取得我国副学士以上学位者以应届毕业生之身份依法取得内政部移民署许可延期居留期间在我国从事工作得免申请工作许可"},{"start":2980.356,"end":3000.505,"text":"第13條內容同現行條文第11條第14條外國專業人才以數位方式從事遠端工作非為我國境內事業單位或雇主提供勞務並具備主管機關公告之一定條件者其本能配有未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之"},{"start":3001.058,"end":3025.359,"text":"成年子女得向外交部或駐外管處申請核發6個月有效期限多次入國停留期限6個月未加注限制不准延期或其他限制之停留簽證於入國後停留期限屆滿有繼續停留之必要者得於停留期限屆滿前向內政部移民署申請延期"},{"start":3026.752,"end":3038.057,"text":"每次延期期間不得逾六個月並得免出國每次總停留期間最長為二年第15條外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才之配偶"},{"start":3038.924,"end":3059.319,"text":"經內政部移民署許可在我國依親居留者得進向勞動部申請許可在我國從事工作該工作許可期間不得預期依親居留期間外國專業人才在我國從事專業工作外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才經內政部移民署"},{"start":3059.859,"end":3076.29,"text":"許可永久居留者及成年子女經內政部移民署認定符合下列要件之一得盡向勞動部申請許可在我國從事工作一曾在我國合法累計居留10年每年居住270日以上二未滿14歲入國"},{"start":3078.411,"end":3105.27,"text":"每年居住270日以上三在我国出生曾在我国合法累计居留10年每年居住183日以上雇主聘雇前二项配偶及成年子女从事工作得不受就业服务法第46条第1项第3项第47条第52条第53条第3项第4项第57条第5款第72条第4款及第74条规定之限制"},{"start":3106.39,"end":3130.2,"text":"並免依第55條規定繳納就業安定費第二項外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才之子女於中華民國112年1月1日前未滿16歲入國者得適用該項規定不受該項第二款有關未滿14歲入國之限制第16條除第二項第二具修正為"},{"start":3130.92,"end":3157.599,"text":"经内政部移民署许可拘留或永久拘留者并删除第三项至第五项其余同现行条文第十二条第十七条除第一项第四具修正为其本能及原经内政部移民署许可拘留之配偶未成年子女与因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女其余同现行条文第十三条第十八条第一项同现行条文第十四条第一项"},{"start":3158.419,"end":3187.706,"text":"第二項以下列各款情形之一為居留原因而經內政部移民署許可在我國居留之期間不記錄前項在我國連續居留期間一在我國就學二一入出國籍移民法第23條第1項第3款第26條第1款第2款第31條第4項第5款至第8款規定經許可居留三經許可在我國從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第10款工作"},{"start":3189.102,"end":3217.823,"text":"是以前三款人員為依親對象經許可居留外國特定專業人才因依第八條第一項規定取得特定專業人才工作許可或依第九條規定取得就業金卡而在我國居留並符合第一項各款要件者有下列情形之一得向內政部移民署申請永久居留一在我國合法連續居留三年平均每年居住183日以上二符合內政部公告之一定條件者"},{"start":3218.383,"end":3235.045,"text":"在我国合法居留一年且居住183日以上外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才在我国就学取得大专校院副学士以上学位者得意下列规定折抵第一项及前项之在我国居留期间"},{"start":3235.816,"end":3250.713,"text":"一 外国专业人才取得博士学位者折抵二年硕士学士或副学士学位者折抵一年四者不得合并折抵二 外国特定专业人才取得博士学位者折抵二年硕士学位者"},{"start":3251.604,"end":3271.285,"text":"折抵一年二者不得合併折抵依第一項及第三項規定申請永久居留者應於居留及居住期間屆滿後二年內申請之第一項第二款及第十九條第一項第一款鎖定無不良素行之認定程序及其他相關事項之標準由內政部定之"},{"start":3272.813,"end":3284.354,"text":"第19條除第二項修正為外國特定專業人才經內政部移民署許可永久居留後其配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女"},{"start":3285.046,"end":3308.182,"text":"并符合前项各款要件者有下列情形之一,得向内政部移民署申请永久居留一,一清对象为一前条第三项第一款规定,经许可永久居留者在我国合法连续居留三年,每年居住183日以上二,一清对象为一前条第三项第二款规定,经许可永久居留者"},{"start":3308.702,"end":3333.771,"text":"在我国合法居留一年且居住183日以上其余同现行条文第16条现行条文第17条删除第20条第一项第三具修正为于入国后停留期限届满有继续停留之必要者其余文字同现行条文第18条增订第二项前项直系遵清属停留期间届满"},{"start":3334.332,"end":3352.608,"text":"有繼續停留之必要且以投保在我國停留期間之醫療及全額住院保險者得於停留期間屆滿前項內政部移民署申請延期並得免出國不受前項每次總停留期間最長為一年之限制第21條同線型條文第19條第22條同線型條文第20條第23條同線型條文第21條第24條從事"},{"start":3360.905,"end":3384.39,"text":"专业工作至外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才适用劳工退休金条例之退休金制度但其于本法中华民国全年全月全日修正之条文施行前已受雇前能服务于同一事业单位于修正施行之日起六个月内已书面向雇主表明继续适用劳动基准法之退休金规定者不在此限"},{"start":3385.55,"end":3406.91,"text":"陳依前向但書規定向僱主表明繼續適用勞動基準法之退休金規定者不得再變更選擇適用勞工退休金條例之退休金制度依第一項規定適用勞工退休金條例退休金制度者其適用前之工作年之依該條例第十一條規定辦理"},{"start":3408.874,"end":3437.01,"text":"雇主因為適用勞工退休金條例退休金制度之外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才向勞動部勞工保險局辦理提繳手續對於第一項代書鎖定期間屆滿未表明繼續適用勞動基準法之退休金規定者雇主致詞應於該期間屆滿之日起15日內申報第一項外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才於本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文"},{"start":3437.614,"end":3464.994,"text":"施行前已适用劳工退休金条例或以依法向雇主表明继续适用劳动基准法之退休金制度者人依各该规定办理不适用前四项规定本法中华民国全年全日修正之条文施行时尚未依修正施行前第一项但书规定或依劳工退休金条例第八条之一第二项规定向雇主表明继续适用劳动基准法之退休金规定"},{"start":3466.014,"end":3481.649,"text":"寫前開規定之表明期間尚未屆滿者能得於修正施行之日起六個月內向僱主表明之藉其為表明者僱主應溯及自其取得永久居留許可之日起為其提繳退休金"},{"start":3482.369,"end":3495.66,"text":"第25條外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才受雇在我國從事工作並經內政部移民署許可永久居留者除本法另有規定外適用就業保險法之規定"},{"start":3496.823,"end":3517.027,"text":"前項人員於受雇後是經內政部移民署許可永久居留者其雇主應於許可永久居留之日為其申報參加就業保險第一項人員於本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文施行前已取得永久居留許可且於修正施行時仍繼續受雇者"},{"start":3517.853,"end":3540.304,"text":"其雇主應於修正實行之日為其申報參加就業保險一及二項規定申報參加就業保險者其保險效力之開始均自雇主應為申報之當日起算雇主非於應為申報之當日為其申報參加就業保險者除於就業保險法第38條規定處罰外"},{"start":3542.465,"end":3560.899,"text":"其保险效力之开始均自申报之一日起算以一前四项规定参加就业保险者于勤领失业给付或职业训练生活津贴期间在我国境内有符合就业保险法第十九条之一第二项规定之受抚养眷属者"},{"start":3561.619,"end":3575.813,"text":"得依該條第一項規定加給給付或津貼以依第一項至第四項規定參加就業保險而經內政部以民屬撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者喪失領受就業保險相關給付之權利"},{"start":3576.934,"end":3594.484,"text":"但因回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限第一項人員於本法中華民國《全年全月全日修正之條文》實行前已適用就業保險法則不適用前六項規定"},{"start":3596.155,"end":3608.476,"text":"第26條外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才受聘僱擔任我國工業學校現職編制內專任合格有幾支教師與研究人員及政府機關與其所屬"},{"start":3611.665,"end":3634.502,"text":"學術研究機關構限職編制內專任合格有幾支研究人員其退休事項準用公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例且經內政部移民署許可永久居留者得擇依支領一次退休金或月退休金準用公立學校教職員個人專戶制退休之前撫恤條例者依該條例規定辦理"},{"start":3637.472,"end":3654.168,"text":"以依前項規定準用公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例且支領月退休金而經內政部移民署撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者喪失領受月退休金之權利但因回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍"},{"start":3654.848,"end":3683.133,"text":"而遭撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限第二十七條外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才受聘僱擔任我國科學園區之公立實驗高級中等學校雙語部限職編制內專任合格有僅是教師其退休之前撫恤及離職退費事項準用公立學校教師規定依前項規定"},{"start":3685.045,"end":3708.202,"text":"准用公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例且經內政部移民署許可永久居留者得擇依資領一次退休金或月退休金其選擇資領月退休金而經內政部移民署撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者喪失領受月退休金之權利但因回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍"},{"start":3708.789,"end":3724.006,"text":"而遭撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限第28條外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才其本能配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女"},{"start":3724.687,"end":3742.726,"text":"经内政部移民署许可永久居留并合法累计居留10年每年居住183日以上其身体系统构造或功能有损伤或不全导致显著偏离或丧失影响其活动与参与社会生活的得向"},{"start":3743.366,"end":3771.962,"text":"直轄市縣市政府提出身心障礙鑑定及需求評估之申請經身心障礙者權益保障法第五條所定之專業團隊依該法第六條及第七條規定鑑定及評估之結果符合該法規定者准用身心障礙者權益保障法第五十條第五十一條規定提供其所需之服務以下列個管情形之一為拘留原因而經內政部移民署許可"},{"start":3772.56,"end":3776.365,"text":"在我國居留之期間不記錄前項在我國累計居留期間"},{"start":3777.25,"end":3805.14,"text":"一在我國就學二一入出國籍移民法第23條第一項第三款第二十六條第一款第二款第三十一條第四項第五款至第八款規定經許可居留三以前二款人員為一親對象經許可居留以符合第一項規定而經內政部移民署撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者其准用身心障礙者權益保障法第五十條第五十一條規定提供之服務應與終止"},{"start":3806.704,"end":3834.814,"text":"但因回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限第一項之申請程序應檢附文件及其他相關事項之辦法由衛生福利部會商相關機關定之第29條外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才其本人配有未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女"},{"start":3835.798,"end":3856.2,"text":"經內政部移民署許可永久居留並合法累計居留10年每年居住183日以上因身心失能且符合下列資格之一者得向長期照顧管理中心或直轄市縣市政府提出申請經依長期照顧服務法第8條及第8條之一評估"},{"start":3856.981,"end":3885.44,"text":"任符合给付长期照顾服务之失能情形按其失能程度核定长期照顾需要等级及长期照顾服务给付额度后准用依该法第八条之一第四项锁定办法提供服务一65岁以上二经身心障碍者权益保障法第五条锁定之专业团队依该法第六条及第七条规定鉴定及评估之结果符合该法规定"},{"start":3886.192,"end":3911.145,"text":"以下列各款情形之一為居留原因而經內政部移民署許可在我國居留之期間不記錄前項在我國累計居留期間一在我國就學二一入出國籍移民法第23條第1項第3款第26條第1款第2款第31條第4項第5款至第8款規定經許可居留三以前2款人員為依侵對象經許可居留"},{"start":3912.469,"end":3932.841,"text":"以符合第一項規定而經內政部移民署撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者其准用依長期照顧服務法第八條之一第四項鎖定辦法提供之服務應與終止但應回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限"},{"start":3933.661,"end":3954.982,"text":"第一項之申請程序應檢附文件提供服務內容及其他相關事項辦法由衛生福利部會商相關機關定之第三十條香港或澳門居民在台灣地區從事專業工作或尋職準用第五條至第六條第七條第一項第八條至第十三條第十七條"},{"start":3955.843,"end":3979.58,"text":"第22條至第24條及第27條第一項規定有關入境停留及居留等事項由內政部依香港澳門關係條例及其相關規定辦理前向香港或澳門居民之外國及配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女準用第8條第二項第16條第二項第17條及第23條規定"},{"start":3983.206,"end":4011.928,"text":"第31條我國國民兼具外國國籍而未在我國設有戶籍並符合下列情形之一者在我國從事工作得免申請工作許可一外國人規劃取得我國國籍二一入出國籍移民法第九條第一項第一款或第四款經內政部移民署許可居留且其父或母現為或曾為居住台灣地區設有戶籍國民我國國民兼具外國國籍"},{"start":4012.881,"end":4037.032,"text":"而未在我國設有戶籍 除前項規定外此外國護照 致我國從事專業工作或尋職者依本法有關外國專業人才之規定辦理第32條 外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才 經規劃取得我國國籍者其配偶子女及職系尊親屬準用第8條 第2項 第15條 第16條 第2項 第17條 第19條 至第21條"},{"start":4042.318,"end":4049.653,"text":"及入出國及移民法第25條第5項規定第33條本法施行日期由行政院定之"},{"start":4051.089,"end":4076.292,"text":"委員何新淳等19人提案第12條除第二項第二句修正為經許可居留或永久居留者其餘同行政院提案第16條第14條除第4項修正為外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才在我國就學取得大學校院學士以上學位者得以下列規定折抵第一項及前項之在我國連續居留期間"},{"start":4077.615,"end":4098.655,"text":"1.外国专业人才取得博士学位者折抵二年,硕士学位者折抵一年,以上各学位不得合并折抵。2.外国特定专业人才取得博士学位者折抵二年,硕士学位者折抵一年,二者不得合并折抵。其文字同线形条文第14条。委员陈廷飞等16人提案第4条。"},{"start":4100.188,"end":4128.146,"text":"除增訂第四款第六目其他因應產業發展有聘僱外國人之必要經勞動部專案核定之工作其餘同行政院提案第六條同行政院提案第十四條除第四項續文墨據修正為得依下列規定折抵第一項及前項之在我國連續拘留期間第六項手續中條次修正為第十六條其餘同行政院提案第十八條"},{"start":4129.827,"end":4151.193,"text":"委員蔡依予等17輪提案第一條同行政院提案第二條同行政院提案第三條同行政院提案第四條同行政院提案第五條同行政院提案第六條同行政院提案第七條同行政院提案第八條同行政院提案第九條同行政院提案第十條同行政院提案第十一條除第一項目據修正為且不得延期"},{"start":4151.853,"end":4168.992,"text":"并删除第三项其余同行证院提案第十二条同行证院提案第十三条同行证院提案第十四条同行证院提案第十五条同行证院提案第十六条同行证院提案第十七条同行证院提案第十八条第四项续文末据修正为"},{"start":4169.973,"end":4197.31,"text":"則依下列規定折抵第一項及前項之在我國連續居留期間第六項刪除其餘同行政院提案第十九條除第二項第一具首具修正為依親對象為依第十八條第三項第一款規定經許可永久居留者第二款首具修正為依親對象為依第十八條第三項第二款規定經許可永久居留者其餘同行政院提案現行條文第十七條刪除"},{"start":4199.161,"end":4225.429,"text":"第20條除第二項前三句修正為前項直系尊卿署停留期間屆滿一年並以投保在我國停留期間至醫療及全額住院保險且有繼續停留之必要者得於停留期限屆滿前其與同行政院提案第21條同行政院提案第22條除第一項句中薪資所得修正為超過新台幣200萬元其與同行政院提案"},{"start":4226.129,"end":4249.651,"text":"第23條同行政院提案第24條第一項倒數第三具修正為於本法修正施行之日起六個月內其餘同行政院提案第一項第二項及第三項同行政院提案第四項同現行條文第五項同行政院提案第六項修正為依本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文施行前之第一項但書規定"},{"start":4250.993,"end":4271.014,"text":"或依勞工退休金條例第八條之一第二項規定得向僱主表明繼續適用勞動基準法之退休金規定而尚未表明者能得於本法修正施行之日起六個月內向僱主表明之藉其未表明者其提繳退休金"},{"start":4272.193,"end":4288.622,"text":"述及自永久居留許可之日起生效第25條第一項及第二項同行政院提案第一項及第二項第三項修正為第一項人員於本法中華民國全年全月全日修正施行前已取得永久居留且繼續受護者"},{"start":4289.282,"end":4308.022,"text":"其雇主因于本法修正施行之当日为其申报参加就业保险第四项第三四据修正为均自因为申报之当日起算但其雇主非于因为申报之当日为其申报参加就业保险者其余同行政院提案第四项"},{"start":4308.682,"end":4323.281,"text":"第五項同行政院提案第五項第六項手續修正為以依第一項至第四項規定參加就業保險者其餘同行政院提案第六項第七項同行政院提案第七項第二十六條第一項第三句"},{"start":4323.881,"end":4351.392,"text":"修正為其退休事項準用公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例以下簡稱退撫條例之退休規定且經內政部移民署許可永久居留者其與同行政院提案第二項首具修正為以一前項規定準用退撫條例且之領月退休金而經內政部移民署撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者其與同行政院提案第二項第27條"},{"start":4353.379,"end":4377.593,"text":"除第二項首具修正為依前項規定準用退府條例且經內政部移民署許可永久居留者其餘同行政院提案第28條第一項倒數第4具其修正為經身心障礙者權益保障法第5條鎖定之專業團隊鑑定及評估符合該法相關規定者準用身心障礙者權益保障法第50條第51條及其相關規定"},{"start":4380.316,"end":4394.954,"text":"使用相关服务其余同行政院提案第一项第二项同行政院提案第二项第三项前段修正文已取得第一项资格经济政部移民署撤销或被指其永久居留许可者"},{"start":4395.655,"end":4410.755,"text":"中止准用身心障碍者权益保障法第50条第51条及其相关规定所提供之服务之权利其余同行政院提案第三项第四项手续修正为第一项之服务内容申请程序应检护文件及其他相关事项"},{"start":4412.679,"end":4439.859,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第四項第29條第一項續文後段修正為每年居住183日以上者因身心失能且符合下列資格之一者準用長期照顧服務法第八條之一第四項規定所提供之服務第二款修正為精深心障礙者權益保障法第五條所定之專業團隊鑑定及評估符合該法相關規定者其餘同行政院提案第一項"},{"start":4441.092,"end":4450.568,"text":"第二項同行政院提案第二項第三項前段修正為已取得第一項資格而經內政部移民署撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者終止"},{"start":4451.826,"end":4478.051,"text":"準用長期照顧服務法第八條之一第四項規定所提供服務之權利其餘同行政院提案第三項第四項首具修正為第一項之服務內容申請程序應檢附文件及其他相關事項其餘同行政院提案第四項第30條同行政院提案第31條同行政院提案第32條除第二具修正為其配偶子女"},{"start":4478.976,"end":4483.805,"text":"及直系尊卿署準用第8條第2項第15條至第17條第19條致電21條第33條同行政院提案"},{"start":4491.075,"end":4514.004,"text":"委員盧美玲等16人提案第一條同行政院提案第二條同行政院提案第三條同行政院提案第四條除第二款修正為外國特定專業人才指外國專業人才具有中央目的事業主管機關公告之我國所需經主管機關會商相關中央目的事業主管機關認定具有特殊專長者其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":4514.577,"end":4537.552,"text":"第五條同行政院提案第六條處第二句修正為或教育部公告世界大學排名前一千名大學及特殊專業優勢學院之學士以上學位者其餘同行政院提案第七條同行政院提案第八條同行政院提案第九條第一項倒數第二句增訂並查核申請人是否有入出國籍移民法"},{"start":4538.593,"end":4559.326,"text":"其他法律或主管机关公告之限制入境管制出入国等情形其余同行政院提案第十条同行政院提案第十一条删除第三项其余同行政院提案第十二条同行政院提案第十三条同行政院提案第十四条一句中停留期限届满有继续停留之必要者"},{"start":4560.646,"end":4572.798,"text":"後增訂且以投保國內設有聯絡點保險公司的醫療及住院保險證明保險額度應至少涵蓋新台幣100萬元以上以確保重大醫療費用"},{"start":4574.434,"end":4591.953,"text":"能獲充分保障符合一般高額醫療支出需求其餘同行政院提案第15條同行政院提案第16條同行政院提案第17條同行政院提案第18條同委員蔡易宇等人提案第19條同委員蔡易宇等人提案"},{"start":4592.862,"end":4613.296,"text":"現行條文第17條刪除第20條第一項後段增訂前項則是以尊卿署停留期間屆滿一年且以投保國內設有聯絡點保險公司的醫療及住院保險並確有繼續停留之必要者得於停留期限屆滿前向內政部移民署申請延期"},{"start":4615.398,"end":4627.996,"text":"且得免出國不受每次總停留期間最長一年之限制其餘文字同行政院提案第一項第二項醫療及住院保險額度應至少涵蓋新台幣100萬元以上"},{"start":4629.281,"end":4652.886,"text":"以確保重大醫療費用能夠充分保障符合一般高額醫療支出需求第二十一條同行政院提案第二十二條同行政院提案第二十三條同行政院提案第二十四條同委員參與等提案第二十五條同委員參與等提案第二十六條除第一項第三具修正為其退休是向準用公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例之退休規定"},{"start":4653.482,"end":4660.33,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":4674.386,"end":4699.115,"text":"委員黃婕等16人提案第一條同行政院提案第二條同行政院提案第三條同行政院提案第四條同行政院提案第五條同行政院提案第六條除第二三據修正為或教育部公告世界參考國際主要大學排名系統特定專業領域排名或考量國家重點發展產業所需認定相當於世界排名前1000名大學之學士以上學位者"},{"start":4699.777,"end":4706.218,"text":"其余同行政院提案第七条同行政院提案第八条同行政院提案第九条同行政院提案第十条同行政院提案"},{"start":4707.605,"end":4736.074,"text":"第十一條第一項前段修正為外國人於最近五年內取得教育部公告參考國際主要大學排名系統特定專業領域排名不考量國家重點發展產業所需認定相當於世界排名前200名大學之學士以上學位者其餘同行政院提案第十二條同行政院提案第十三條同行政院提案第十四條同行政院提案第十五條同行政院提案第十六條同行政院提案第十七條第一項第四具修正為"},{"start":4736.914,"end":4766.634,"text":"其本人及原金内政部移民署许可居留之配偶未成年子女及因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女其余同行政院提案第18条第二项第四款修正为依前二款人员为依亲对象经许可居留第四项续文目据修正为得依下列规定折抵第一项及前项之在我国连续居留期间第一款第二据修正为硕士学士及副学士学位者折抵一年"},{"start":4767.358,"end":4770.343,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第19條同行政院提案"},{"start":4770.874,"end":4797.672,"text":"现行条文第十七条删除第二十条第二项目据修正为不受前项美总停留期间最长为一年之限制其余同行政院提案第二十一条同行政院提案第二十二条同行政院提案第二十三条同行政院提案第二十四条除第四项目据修正为雇主致死应于该期间届满之次日起十五日内申报其余同行政院提案第二十五条同行政院提案第二十六条同行政院提案"},{"start":4799.042,"end":4822.717,"text":"第27條同行政院提案 第28條同行政院提案 第29條除第一項序文目據修正為準用依該法第8條之一第4項所定辦法提供其所需之服務第二款目增加者字其餘同行政院提案第30條同行政院提案 第31條同行政院提案 第32條同行政院提案 第33條同行政院提案"},{"start":4847.662,"end":4876.456,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等人所提修正動議第4條第二款外國特定專業人才指外國專業人才具有中央目的事業主管機關公告之我國所需科技數位經濟教育文化藝術體育金融法律建築設計國防及其他領域之特殊專長或經主管機關會商相關中央目的事業主管機關認定具有特殊專長者"},{"start":4877.867,"end":4904.982,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第6條外國人取得國內外大學之碩士以上學位或列入教育部外國大學參考名冊之大學校院之學士以上學位者受聘僱在我國從事就業服務法第46條第一項第一款專門性或技術性工作"},{"start":4905.58,"end":4920.773,"text":"除應取得職業資格符合一定職業方式及條件符合法定薪資標準者及應符合專目的事業主管機關所定之法令規定外無需具備一定期間工作經驗"},{"start":4922.264,"end":4946.213,"text":"第十一條外國人於最近五年內取得教育部公告世界大學排名前五百名大學之學士以上學位者的競向勞動部申請許可在我國從事專業工作期許可期間最長為二年且不得延期及重新申請其與同行政院提案"},{"start":4951.601,"end":4969.43,"text":"第15條外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才之配偶經濟政部移民署許可在我國依親居留者得於居留期間內進向勞動部申請工作許可其餘同行政院提案第18條這是第幾項"},{"start":4990.575,"end":5008.608,"text":"第十八條第四項第二款外國特定專業人才取得博士學位者折抵二年碩士學位者折抵一年六個月具有多種學位者僅得折一折抵求與同行政院提案"},{"start":5020.871,"end":5040.118,"text":"委員您耐話等所提修正動議修正第四條第一項第四款第四五目四 交易部核定設立遭受外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才子女專班之外國語文"},{"start":5041.238,"end":5060.205,"text":"以外之学科教师及公司立高级中等以下学校双语教育所聘请依其专长任教语言及语言以外之非学科并协助相关教学及教师研习培训之教师之教师"},{"start":5062.11,"end":5090.533,"text":"第五幕學校型態實驗教育實施條例公立高級中等以下學校委託私人辦理實驗教育條例及高級中等以下教育階段非學校型態實驗教育實施條例所定學科外國語文課程教學師資養成課程研發及活動推廣工作"},{"start":5091.812,"end":5113.521,"text":"其餘同行政院提案委員劉建國等所提修正動議第四條第二款外國特定專業人才指外國專業人才具有重要目的事業主管機關功耗至我國所需科技教育經濟教育文化藝術"},{"start":5118.973,"end":5144.52,"text":"運動金融法律建築設計國防數位環境及其他領域之特殊專長或經主管機關會商相關中央目的事業主管機關認定具有特殊專長者其餘同行政院提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":5152.093,"end":5174.734,"text":"好現在所有條文跟修正動議都已經宣讀完畢我們現在進行協商來請大家可以看協商的對照條文那我們就直接來協商來我們先處理第一條那第一條呢"},{"start":5175.974,"end":5193.057,"text":"對他所有的委員的提案跟行政院的版本都相同那我們第一條的處理是不是既然都版本都一樣的話我們是不是就依行政院的提案條文通過好沒有意見的話就按行政院條文通過好"},{"start":5194.4,"end":5223.006,"text":"那處理第二條那第二條也是有每一個委員的版本跟行政院的修正版本相同那我們是不是也依照行政院提案條文通過好那就依行政院條文通過那現在處理第三條那第三條一樣每一位委員的提案跟行政院的版本相同那是不是我們也是依照行政院的提案條文來通過好"},{"start":5224.366,"end":5237.791,"text":"好那我們現在來處理第4條那第4條呢有林戴華委員賴瑞榮委員劉建國委員的修正動議那以及"},{"start":5240.352,"end":5265.296,"text":"陳廷飛委員的版本跟行政院是不一致的那我們是不是請各委員好 來 賴瑞隆委員發言好 謝謝第四條的部分主要我是加入了因為裡面其實當然有提到數位啦齁那我認為其實特別是外國特定人才裡面其實數位是未來一個重要的趨勢那我是建議這個的部分可以往前放來強化我們對於數位這一塊的重視啦齁"},{"start":5268.237,"end":5292.465,"text":"科技數位這樣的一個重視那另外趁這個機會也提一下我的整個修正裡面除要也是希望能夠做更多的一些放寬那特別是在於前一千大其實我希望能夠至少放到一千五放寬到一千五那其他的部分也希望包括國發會包括經濟部也整體來思考我們整體思考再做更多的放寬來吸引國際的優秀人才來到台灣以上說明"},{"start":5294.206,"end":5308.998,"text":"好 那劉建國委員 完這個林大華委員好 謝謝主席我想我在第二項這個部分是特別把體育改為運動因為我們台灣政府的主改在9月9號就要把這個體育署改為運動部"},{"start":5317.564,"end":5346.071,"text":"然後運動也有相關的這些科系包括健康運動師的培訓等等等所以也配合健康台灣全民運動的精神所以我們不只是招人體育的菁英還有更多相關運動涵蓋的這些人才都可以投入到台灣的產業的發展當中這是第一項所以我把體育改為運動然後第二個是"},{"start":5346.892,"end":5358.853,"text":"也增列這個環境最主要是隨著這個全球的減碳及環保相關意識抬頭那宿命而生的是所謂的綠領人才環境部也在相關的報告特別提出"},{"start":5359.525,"end":5373.236,"text":"去年全台將近3600家的企業釋出所謂的綠林職缺平均每月需求已經高達2.2萬人才的缺口還直追AI產業的2.9萬人所以我們是預估台灣未來5年的綠林職缺將有1到3倍的這樣的"},{"start":5379.941,"end":5401.389,"text":"的成長空間所以環境部現在也積極的在推動相關的綠人才培育所以我才在這邊提出在修正動力從增加這個環境的利益然後把體育改為運動以上跟各位委員說明 謝謝好 謝謝牛建國委員那下一位是不是林黛華委員發言"},{"start":5403.235,"end":5431.111,"text":"我針對我們引進的外籍教師應該能夠在公私立的高中職以下能夠教授非學科的課程而且我特別宰名叫做非學科我們外籍的英文老師要可以在非學科在體育美術音樂家政"},{"start":5432.419,"end":5447.364,"text":"城市設計或者是設計相關的課程當中能夠教授英文第二個這樣的外籍英文教師在非學科生教授他不是獨立運作他一定要"},{"start":5448.004,"end":5474.074,"text":"本國的老師來做協同教學而且事先的備課所以他不會單獨為之而希望藉著我們國家已經花了工資源前瞻計畫當中的預算百分百的支持這樣的一個外籍教師的整個所有的薪資那希望他能夠把他的利用能夠他的專業能夠最大化"},{"start":5474.674,"end":5500.759,"text":"而不是僅僅在英語課程來教授而已第三在我們的雙語國家的這個目標我相信教育部也不敢講得很清楚為什麼在我個人認為在雙語國家的目標之下真的要達到的是我們本國老師有全美語的教授能力"},{"start":5501.799,"end":5525.476,"text":"聽好是本國老師要有全美語的教授能力所以這個外籍老師的聘用他會是個過渡期而這個過渡期他會多久呢我當然希望那就要看本國老師提升的職能如何以及第三個教育部是真的在扼殺英國"},{"start":5527.477,"end":5551.515,"text":"本國學生學習英文能力的最大殺手因為剛才他們的說法是因為在我們的這個教學現場當中我們英語弱勢的學生可能因為這樣外籍老師的導入之後英語弱勢英語學習的學生會更弱你覺得這樣的論點"},{"start":5553.801,"end":5574.169,"text":"聽起來不會有矛盾嗎那到底教育部對於弱勢英文學生或者對弱勢英文弱勢學習能力較弱的學生你做了什麼事情請提供出來我林黛華本席會告訴你怎麼做"},{"start":5575.009,"end":5592.981,"text":"在針對弱勢英文學習能力的部分你要導入以下第一個叫做減量教學把學生教會而不是把課程趕完這個叫做操作型的教學只有在一堂課當中分組的教材"},{"start":5595.643,"end":5619.255,"text":"同一班內你的學習程度就不一樣所以你只有靠著減量教學把學生教會而把課程趕完教育部你敢不敢做如果你要你再跟我本席強調說弱勢英文能力的部分是因為外國老師的導入而會讓弱勢的英文學習能力的學生更弱"},{"start":5622.356,"end":5627.26,"text":"那第一個你一定要全面導入我們的減量教學第二個"},{"start":5628.965,"end":5657.207,"text":"全國 全國都進行這個英語能力的評測聽好 不要給我斷章啟語這樣的英文評測不對學校不對老師做評鑑這樣的評鑑完全只是給我們教學現場的老師明白他的這樣的教學方法我們學生的進步程度如何"},{"start":5658.027,"end":5681.78,"text":"所以而且要分兩次一個叫做學期前的時候就要來做這樣的英文能力的測驗在學期後也做這樣的測驗而且是不用告知的不用準備的因為根本在學校跟老師完全沒有任何的負擔情況之下不會被苛責的情況之下然後就能夠來這樣的做這樣評鑑"},{"start":5685.322,"end":5701.532,"text":"再來我再要求教育部這個第四個以每一個鄉鎮在直轄市當中以每一個行政區在非直轄市的縣市以每一個鄉鎮市為一個行政單位做一個團體做英語教師的工作坊"},{"start":5710.678,"end":5718.683,"text":"而實質的讓每一個鄉鎮市或者一個行政區在直轄市當中行政區當中的每一個就成為一個團隊我這個鄉鎮裡面有六個國小這六個國小甚至國中高中有六所的國公高中他就是一個英文老師包括主責的英文的業務的主任形成的一個教學團體"},{"start":5739.654,"end":5741.795,"text":"這樣來落實我們每一個到底你誇了前瞻計畫每年四五億以上到底評效如何我現在講的這幾點請教育部直接告訴我這樣能不能去拯救你所謂擔心的外語能力導入我教學現場之後能不能把所謂英文學習弱勢的學生把他救起來"},{"start":5767.745,"end":5796.502,"text":"如果你認為本席剛才本席提出的這個四個教學現場的方法不夠好那請教育部你也提出你的對應方案而且就在此時此刻的法案審查當中或者你就是不負責任或者你就是在教育部就是在扼殺所有我公立學校英語學習的教育平權的一個憲法的一個受教的一個權利以上 謝謝"},{"start":5799.923,"end":5826.034,"text":"好那現在因為剛剛有賴瑞榮委員 劉建國委員跟林黛華委員都有針對第四條提出修正的一些意見那是不是我們請相關部會就剛剛的意見那我們來來部會來做一個說明那以及你們對於這個條文本身你們的看法那來一併說明相關部會都依序說明"},{"start":5833.115,"end":5856.209,"text":"主席還有各位委員非常謝謝剛剛賴瑞榮委員跟劉濟孔委員的對於這個專業領域的建議修正動議那我們覺得這個是蠻能凸顯現在我們所需要的一些重點產業領域所以我們尊重委員的修正動議有關於林委員的提案我們是不是可以麻煩教育部來做說明謝謝好那教育部來說明"},{"start":5860.027,"end":5882.16,"text":"首先谢谢委员对我们双语教学现场的关切那有关这个委员想要开放国中小公司立学校非主科的科目由外师来协同教学那这个部分主要是想要第一个就是说这跟于我们现在学科没有开放"},{"start":5882.84,"end":5892.382,"text":"的這個政策有益啦那是不是可以讓我們先保留然後我們先跟相關的教師團體先溝通取得共識來 謝一鳳委員不好意思啊 那個是國際國際教育師的代理副市長嗎"},{"start":5905.477,"end":5920.084,"text":"我想請教一下就是說現在目前你說不能開放的理由是什麼那因為呃剛才林委員他所說的就是呃只是在協助教學而不是取代就是我們的學科教育嗎他是協助"},{"start":5920.604,"end":5935.291,"text":"就是說輔助教學那這對於就是說非六度以外的公立學校那是否有足夠的外資因為也不一定是每個學校都會有這樣子協同教學的這個"},{"start":5936.451,"end":5952.561,"text":"一定是在於對於外語教學有特別的就是說每個學校都有特色教學那現在公立學校只有在特色教學的時候才有可能就是導入這種協同就是協同教"},{"start":5953.041,"end":5978.406,"text":"就是教外語協同的老師那這對於這為什麼跟今天的外國專業人才延攬及雇用法有相關的一個關係就是我們在希望國際的人才來的時候未來台灣的整體的環境一定要增加外語能力的就是就業人口嘛"},{"start":5978.846,"end":5995.76,"text":"那這個對於一些偏鄉以及非六都以外的學生來說這也是尤為重要尤其是現在六都的尤其是六都現在的他們的外語能力"},{"start":5997.142,"end":6015.841,"text":"都優於偏鄉的這樣子一個情況下那未來怎麼樣子協助就是非六都以外的各縣市的學生都能夠擁有這樣子的外語能力我相信這一條一定是需要說大家共同去溝通"},{"start":6017.643,"end":6029.757,"text":"她所說的並不是由外語取代我們的學科喔而是協助學科的輔助教育我沒有弄錯這個條文的內容吧"},{"start":6032.6,"end":6059.847,"text":"就這個部分我認為是不是應該要就這個部分教育部一定要提出相關的說法然後讓我們了解因為畢竟就是說非六都以外的這些公立學校相關的教育資源的確沒有像都會型的學校這麼好是 謝謝委員那是不是可以容許我再說好 先回答"},{"start":6060.748,"end":6084.333,"text":"那那個過去沒有開放的理由是因為我們的國民就是國中小以下教育必須還是屬於國民教育的一環那主要還是以我國教師為主然後他們熟悉我們的課綱的內涵跟授課的方式那所以過去是有這樣子的政策就是不開放所有外籍教師來教授我們的學科科目"},{"start":6084.913,"end":6100.372,"text":"那但是委員現在的調整呢就會涉及到我們現在政策的改變所以我們是非常希望說是不是可以讓我們先跟相關的教師團體先來溝通請你看那個林戴華委員的修正條文他並不是說"},{"start":6102.033,"end":6117.919,"text":"要開放外師來教授學科他的文字是寫說這個任教語言及語言之外之非學科並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓之教師之"},{"start":6121.318,"end":6146.925,"text":"報告主席那還是學科只是他不是主要的科目就是體育啊什麼那些還是科對這就是非學科啊所謂非學科學科就是國英數不是英國文數學歷史自然這叫做學科啊那非學科的部分才叫做這個藝術科我還沒講說那數科乾脆我講數科算了"},{"start":6147.785,"end":6170.641,"text":"我直接講數科 只是我不曉得到國中的時候 高中的時候你的餐飲家政是不是屬於數科如果是在小學的話 數科是很明確的就是音樂 藝術 然後包括城市設計跟設計等你城市設計一定是要用外語啊那你的有關設計的課程也是會用到外語啊"},{"start":6172.448,"end":6194.803,"text":"這個為什麼幫我拿掉了那個教育部你們在幫我修的時候這個新的版本音樂藝術餐飲家政體育城市設計還有設計委員在我們相關的那個定義裡面這些都還是屬於學科沒有這樣子的區分那什麼叫數科那你告訴我這些叫做什麼科"},{"start":6196.058,"end":6220.305,"text":"那我可以直接正面表列啊我也不用飛學科了如果用正面表列啊像學程式設計的話它幾乎都是要用英語的啊它是一個在英語的環境的一個數科那如果類似這樣的數科我們用外資來教學那教育部認為這件事還需要研議的原因是什麼"},{"start":6221.258,"end":6231.989,"text":"還有我要講光是我們一個投球我在Basketball裡面的投球的頭髮這樣的一個投球跟我在排球的投球就不一樣躲避球的投球中文都一樣他們在這三個體育課三個不同當中就不一樣"},{"start":6244.042,"end":6272.796,"text":"那你不投入這個情境你怎麼教小朋友你教一個英文課的英文老師他那麼厲害他能夠學而且我講明的雙語教學真的要達到的是我剛才講的全美我們的本國老師可以有全美語授課的能力所以我們必須借助這樣的外籍老師讓本國老師一起提升他的職能到底什麼時候會落實也請你們敢不敢做評鑑"},{"start":6274.597,"end":6291.643,"text":"第二個我要報告的是一定要做到雙語的課綱藉著外籍老師的導入建立起我們的各科目的課綱你敢不敢做你們不敢做你們全部叫做怠惰"},{"start":6293.041,"end":6321.51,"text":"真的你們什麼都不做你們真的有做到你們只知道編錢然後分配就做這兩件事情而已然後審查然後去篩掉不符合 去篩掉一些人家努力的一些國中小像我臨源高中你為什麼他的實驗學他的英語實驗已經做了那麼久你為什麼今天給我刪掉他我們一個偏鄉工業區的一個鄉鎮你們只會做這種事而已嘛"},{"start":6322.492,"end":6342.377,"text":"那你有沒有敢評鑑他們來 待會委員是不是讓他們有時間來充分回應那等一下是不是讓陳婷菲委員跟邱志文委員講我在補充一下他講到弱勢因為我們這邊所有即使是直轄市因為我們來自縣區我們的縣區就等同非直轄市的縣區是一樣所以我們是"},{"start":6342.797,"end":6367.411,"text":"花了多大的心力 我剛才講的都是非直轄市就是台北市跟高雄市之外的所有偏鄉的地方在執行減量教學 評鑑 而且不做學校的評鑑我們有工作法 你敢不敢這三個你實質給我併經費下去 全國實施你敢不敢 你們不敢 你什麼事都不做你敢不敢做課綱 你也不敢做課綱"},{"start":6369.031,"end":6389.213,"text":"而且這樣的雙語教學從幾年開始講教育部2018年諮詢學者的時候就講了本席還落後了四年 2011年的時候提出來到現在2025年 又過了三年 前後已經七年了你把我們公立學校的小朋友的英文能力放在哪裡"},{"start":6390.234,"end":6395.483,"text":"你們把公立學校的小朋友的公立學你只是圖利圖利實驗學校圖利那個科學園區的這個實驗小學他們都是有錢人的學校"},{"start":6403.266,"end":6430.015,"text":"我今天要爭取的是所有全台灣國小到高中公立學校的英文的討論你在谷口說你要給我講方法喔現在主席要請你講你給我講方法我林戴華講得那麼清楚今天我們是錄影錄音喔我所講的每一個講的是有理論跟實驗的部分喔你講不出來只有一句話說你帶回去研究好 戴華委員我們等一下會再進行討論來"},{"start":6433.193,"end":6460.133,"text":"陳廷輝委員完 邱志維委員然後范雲委員謝謝主席我覺得現在大家所擔心的就是說我們既然要開放那我們會不會要自己幫手幫腳因為一次修法其實我們等很久所以這也是我們所委員從過去到現在一直希望的就是說既然要開放我們可不可以"},{"start":6460.894,"end":6483.703,"text":"能夠讓所有有專業能力的然後真正讓我們自己國內的每一位不論是在秀教或是在職場當中他們都可以得到真正能夠專業的領域的人才所以這個應該也是戴華委員所在修正動力當中所強調就是說你今天"},{"start":6485.426,"end":6492.542,"text":"這個雙語教學如果有專業人才要進到我們台灣來做這樣一個教學領域的時候他的範圍"},{"start":6494.281,"end":6515.539,"text":"他的範圍 所以這個部分可能你要講得更清楚 大家請教育部我覺得你們有你們的考量但是考量當中要怎麼樣能夠在專業人才跟教育的這樣的一個領域有一個完整性 這個可能要拜託你做一個比較詳細的說明然後"},{"start":6517.772,"end":6540.308,"text":"這個當然我們國發會有希望說原本在其他因應產業發展有聘僱外國人之必要經勞動部專案審核審定的工作這個部分你們現在是把它取消掉可是我認為這個部分其實有它存在的必要"},{"start":6541.775,"end":6557.371,"text":"真的有它存在不要雖然我修正了也把它修正掉可是你們要把它講得更清楚因為你們說你們要尊重勞動部可是怎麼尊重好 你是不是要在我們的這個立法意旨當中寫得更清楚"},{"start":6558.311,"end":6580.352,"text":"否則大家會覺得說這有什麼問題其他因應產業發展有聘僱外國人之必要經勞動部專案核定之工作這沒有問題啊可是為什麼要把它拿掉原因在哪裡那是不是應該轉換在立法議席裡面把它正面表列這部分是我要求的謝謝"},{"start":6582.435,"end":6597.771,"text":"好來那個邱志偉謝謝我想這個全世界各國都在搶人才所以我們制定這個法律從新經濟運營法到今天的外國專業人才延攬跟顧問法是集中在這個專業"},{"start":6599.761,"end":6616.708,"text":"所以專業的定義就是說它在某項特殊領域或某項領域它有一定的專長這個專長可以對國內的相當產業或者是教學能夠有所注意我認為我基本的立場是在不影響本國勞動力的潛力之下應該從寬從速"},{"start":6620.568,"end":6646.163,"text":"來擴大對外國專業人才的招募我基本的立場是這樣子那今天第四條當然這個教學是一種專業教學是一種專業那特別我注意到有一些這個實驗班就是說國立高中不用說這個體育專班體育專班包括有棒球班包括有足球班"},{"start":6647.455,"end":6666.987,"text":"我想請教教教育部國際師如果許一般想聘請專業足球的訓練老師或者是棒球的訓練老師在現階段或者在未來"},{"start":6668.379,"end":6687.005,"text":"你們能不能用這次修法的內容這次這個制定這個法律的內容來聘請更多在特殊領域專業 比方說足球或棒球專業的外事來協助或教學這部分是不是可以請看起來公立學校就是不可以"},{"start":6687.799,"end":6717.161,"text":"但是所以才會有大法委員的提案足球棒球都要依賴很多這個南亞洲澳洲這些人才真的是叫來是布的不過從高中開始就能夠提升這個我們這個運動的水平好 這位委員我們等一下這問題是等一下討論的一個重點是不是范雲委員晚在謝玉鳳委員喔 抱歉還是謝玉鳳委員要先好 OK照順序的"},{"start":6718.514,"end":6740.74,"text":"我想大家會有這個疑問主要就是教育部的那個雙語這個政策的執行方法跟目標其實一直很不明確所以才會有人提到說是不是課綱然後那個科目就是體育這些教師是不是要拼英語那我是覺得這個不知道我們今天來的是副司長是不是"},{"start":6742.328,"end":6771.788,"text":"市長你能否回答我是懷疑你無法回答這個問題啦因為這個應該是部長回答的那我最近有看到新聞部長好像重申雙語政策的方向要調整嘛那前面潘部長時期說的是說體育這些什麼美術這些科目來用英語教引起很多人的反彈因為各地方政府就是像我知道的花蓮就是國文在招惠英文的然後可能國文不好"},{"start":6772.508,"end":6796.565,"text":"所以當時的那波反彈又有教文委員都有質詢過這樣子應該是先把國文會那它有英文加分就是不應該是不會國文的然後收英文對不對可是最近你們部長是不是重新說過要回歸就是說不是這種非英文科目要用英文教而是英文科目要全英文這是我看到的新聞"},{"start":6797.385,"end":6819.944,"text":"我想我们先厘清教育部的方法之后才会来讨论是说那个人才的部分我想这个部分如果不厘清的话那大家会纠结在这些事情上以上好 来 谢一半委员好范云老师他讲的应该是就是高等教育委员讲的应该是"},{"start":6825.126,"end":6843.773,"text":"我講的其實我們今天不是在改課綱因為講改課綱我覺得太大了就是可能需要所有的教師團體共同來討論那其實我們現在要解決的是目前我們現在的中小學教育裡面遇到的問題"},{"start":6844.893,"end":6864.045,"text":"就是其實這是已經發生在所有的教育體系裡面當我們要就是做特色的就是說一般的公立學校要做特色的教學的時候例如像體育像我們的一些英語的教學的時候"},{"start":6864.465,"end":6888.771,"text":"他沒有辦法去延攬外師共同來我們今天的題目是協助相關教學而不是取代正職的老師是協助相關的教學那在這個情況下因為這會涉及到非常多相關的可能說取得這些就是居留權或者是相關的議題"},{"start":6890.211,"end":6910.319,"text":"那這是發生在教育現場的工作我們沒有要取代正職的老師而是當我們在發展這樣子相關的雙語教育的時候怎麼樣子引入外師做協助的工作那我相信今天的法條是處理這個"},{"start":6910.779,"end":6938.257,"text":"而沒有涉及到課綱或者是其他的部分我相信把這個問題可以單純化我們比較容易解決這個問題而不是希望說擴大惡力我們希望解決目前教育現場的問題好 謝謝謝一鋒委員來 等一下等一下各位你要發言的也是教育對 你是要針對教育嗎因為我想我們先鎖定一個議題不然會一直開花"},{"start":6941.451,"end":6956.679,"text":"人才那是指教育嗎這也是要跟教育部講還是說你可能會在其他的領域數位還是怎樣那數位我們是不是等一下再來講不然我們現在會有點開放好戴華偉你簡單講不然現在讓他們還是要讓他們回應好不好我呼應所有人簡單講啦對不起一個我即使是數學英文課不是不是數學就是音樂藝術餐飲家政體育程式設計等課程"},{"start":6969.206,"end":6973.248,"text":"這樣一個課程兩個老師在教一個是本身這個科人老師另外一個是外籍英文老師你告訴我全台灣的家長他願不願意在這種非學科的課程有兩個老師在教這個叫做協同教學"},{"start":6992.279,"end":7015.555,"text":"以及他們之前要共同配課以及戴華所期待的希望能夠建立課綱你們不敢做的所以坦白講就是一個課程兩個老師我們不是協助協助是在兩個老師共同配課教學現場兩個老師你問問全台灣公立學校的家長們他們要不要好來"},{"start":7018.043,"end":7027.696,"text":"來教育部來請就剛剛幾位委員的發言可以來做比較細的一個回答不要說只是待會討論這樣"},{"start":7031.51,"end":7059.284,"text":"感謝各位委員剛剛的就教那剛經將各位委員的那個指教又轉達給署長那署長其實對於剛剛戴浩委員或伊富文委員或者是各位委員所提的有關要開放各公司立高級中等以下學校如果有辦雙語教育的話他聘請外師可以依外師的專長來協同教學非學科包含了在我們目前"},{"start":7059.904,"end":7074.756,"text":"提到的音樂、藝術、參與家政、體育、城市設計等等那我們來配合辦理不過我們會後可以在說明欄的地方可以再加諸一些譬如說看還有沒有其他的學科、任教領域"},{"start":7076.218,"end":7093.16,"text":"所以教育部的意思是說你們願意用正面表列的方式讓比方說像是體育啊像是音樂家政啊這一些項目然後他們做協同教學由外資來做協同教學那如果你們要正面表列的話你們是不是可以先列舉"},{"start":7094.521,"end":7096.803,"text":"我等一下會第四條我們會回過頭再討論讓他們有時間吧那謝一鋒委員也要發言嗎"},{"start":7113.151,"end":7138.797,"text":"沒有喔好那如果這一項教育部可以在你們願意配合的修正的方向你們是不是先把文字擬出來是看是要在立法一旨還是要在這個第四款的條文直接去做文字的處理就是哪些學科是願意用外施來做協同教學的我覺得這教育部應該可以那剛剛的回應事實上應該也符合大法委員的期待很正面喔好"},{"start":7142.227,"end":7142.968,"text":"好 那葛禄君委員"},{"start":7165.578,"end":7187.91,"text":"好謝謝主席我想這個第4條有提到這個新增數位專業的人才那我們一直非常的關注那我國自2018年起有推出就業金卡不過這個每年延攬的國外人才總數大約只落在2000人到3000人之間那其中如果我們只看AI發展高度相關的這個科技領域"},{"start":7189.051,"end":7207.859,"text":"近五年取得就業金卡的平均人數只有426人大家沒有聽錯我沒有少寫一個零或兩個零就是五年426人相較之下我國人才外人的數字是非常恐怖的遠比我們國際攬才的人數要巨大非常多"},{"start":7208.519,"end":7232.721,"text":"根據2024的台灣人才白皮書台灣一年有1.2萬人從學校畢業就直接到日本去工作去年美國發出技術人才簽證的數量台灣我們中華民國國籍的就有超過3000人澳洲也吸引台灣的年輕人去度假打工7200個人是亞洲第一與流出的人口人才競相比我們對外染財的數量真的是不太夠"},{"start":7233.502,"end":7249.854,"text":"那我們台灣作為人才進出口國呢已經是不爭的事實那英國的牛津經濟學的公司呢也有用數學的模型來推估我們是一個超級赤字全球人才荒負1.5%遠超過南韓的0.9%美國0.8%負0.9%負0.8%美國德國和新加坡負0.6%台灣是負1.5%那這一次行政院版修正的這個草案呢"},{"start":7261.503,"end":7283.471,"text":"當然精神上方向上我們是予以支持但是其中有強調將畢業生來台工作免兩年的這個經驗從排名五百大放寬成排名一千大這是怎麼計算的那要多一點為什麼少一點為什麼不是八百為什麼不是一千五還是你乾脆全球前兩千算了這是如何計算的"},{"start":7284.071,"end":7308.66,"text":"以及從目前AI產業的市場概況來看AI相關科技人才領域超級搶手根本還在學校這一點我是真的想要提出還在學校就已經被各大企業預定了等到畢業還要有兩年工作經驗我們才要張開大門其實很多我們看到賈伯斯也好很多這些非常厲害的矽谷的工作者創造者"},{"start":7310.06,"end":7337.79,"text":"其实很可能也大学都还没毕业我们如果想要用这种方针用这种方针去揽世界顶尖人才尤其是科技我们现在又是AI内阁我们又要打造主权AI还在僵化固守所谓的毕业后两年工作经验相信科技领域人才的赤字还会在节节上升只会让台湾在AI科技的发展上面持续恶化因为人才竞争力不足"},{"start":7338.47,"end":7347.723,"text":"那更不用講啦昨天大家可以上網Google一下黃仁勛又聘用了什麼樣的人才更多增加到他的公司裡面他也說了"},{"start":7349.409,"end":7375.239,"text":"这个非常多的人才都聚集在一个特定的地方所以我想我不想要讲得太明白但是我希望大家可以理解到我们科技AI的人才一定是要放宽来争取否则我想我们这样一个修法会非常非常可惜我们有一个好的机会针对AI针对数位科技的专才应该要更加的放宽更经济的揽财措施财富和现在的需要谢谢"},{"start":7376.3,"end":7378.663,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員來 這個是不是請這個我們國發會是不是說明一下"},{"start":7385.306,"end":7410.836,"text":"是 謝謝剛剛幾位委員的指教 剛剛陳廷輝委員提到那個謝謝您對行政版本的支持 那我們會在立法說明裡面加進去 謝謝委員 那有關於葛委員提到我們在科技跟數位人才方面希望能夠加強這點我們完全同意 那也是我們除了這個法修正以外就是為了配合這樣子 另外我們其他的有關於外國專業人才怎麼去精準攬才 包含他在"},{"start":7411.976,"end":7432.072,"text":"進入台灣以後怎麼生活環境各方面的這個協助的措施我們都同步在精進中那委員會對各個條文如果有更多的指教我們也會跟委員做一些正面的回應 以上來陳俊輝委員謝謝主席那待會那個立法議席要拜託把它清楚表明出來喔 謝謝"},{"start":7434.582,"end":7458.252,"text":"好那第四條這樣啦吼就是說教育部現在可能會針對這個第四款第四條第四款的部分就未來如何讓外資來做協同教學這裡的文字那以及這個立法說明的部分會文字朝你但是我們剛剛今天的版本事實上也有劉建國陳情非賴瑞榮以及"},{"start":7460.385,"end":7484.595,"text":"包括我自己那還有羅美玲的委員事實上也都有不同的文字那是不是教育部的文字出來後再跟我們這個國發會再對一下就說你剛剛在劉建國委員有講到說體育這兩個字把它轉成運動那以及未來要一些環境可能一個綠能的一個國際人才的這劉建國委員那如果這個文字要做一個整合"},{"start":7485.095,"end":7505.236,"text":"是不是等交易部分之後你們來做一個整併那我們第四條我們等一下就回過頭再來處理這樣好不好好那我先宣讀因為陳廷輝委員有再提一個修正動議是針對第四條那修正動議增加陳廷輝委員第四條條文的提案我們就列入記錄那"},{"start":7507.797,"end":7532.972,"text":"還有兩個附帶決議附帶決議是這是其他條文的好那我們等一下再處理好那我們第四條就回過頭後再來再回來處理我們現在處理第五條第五條的條文所有委員的版本都跟行政院版本一致那我們是不是就按照行政院的文字通過好沒有問題那我們來處理第六條那第六條"},{"start":7535.714,"end":7549.698,"text":"賴瑞榮委員的修正動議跟行政院不一樣其他都是一樣的請羅美玲委員發言"},{"start":7559.66,"end":7588.499,"text":"好謝謝主席第六條的部分我跟院本不一樣的地方就是我有加上就是除了就是說世界大學排名前1000名大學級特殊之外我還加了一個特殊專業優勢學院之學士以上學位子為什麼我會加上特殊專業優勢學院那是因為我們有看到其實我們有很多這個獨立院校其實他雖然沒有參加世界的排名可是他在"},{"start":7589.56,"end":7614.973,"text":"某些專業它其實是頂尖的 舉個例子像這個Curtis Institute of Music像這個其實它是世界頂尖的音樂學府那再來還有倫敦大學的科陶德藝術學院其實也是它在這個藝術史專業的這個權威性是世界的這個很重要的代表可是我們就是擔心就是說像這樣子比較有專業性的這些院校沒有被列入我們"},{"start":7615.293,"end":7643.412,"text":"怕是說在人才方面有遺足之憾所以我有加了這個特殊專業優勢學院之學士以上學位者那我也想聽聽就是我們國發會的這個意見啦因為你們當然雖然有來說明了那看是說這部分有沒有如果真的沒有辦法列入條文的話是不是我想是在那個立法說明裡面可以列進來好以上謝謝好那這部分是不是請國發會還是教育部來做一個說明"},{"start":7645.702,"end":7674.524,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝委員有關賴銳榮委員的修正建議那我們也有跟這個交易部做討論我想賴委員他是希望能夠引進更多的人國外人才所以他對於排名的建議有一些修正的想法那原則上我們尊重賴委員那我們也會等會會依照賴委員的方向我們會以一個文字來跟各位委員報告那有關於剛剛羅委員提到的"},{"start":7674.924,"end":7689.301,"text":"的確沒錯的確有些特殊的學員在很多特定的領域有這個有慢好的表現那這種人才當然本來也是我們需要的不過我們的確是實務上的考慮啦那這點也請委員"},{"start":7690.462,"end":7714.024,"text":"稍微見諒一下在實際執行上因為一些特殊領域的這些獨立學院我們怕在實務執行上比較難以有一個公認的標準所以我們希望把我們目前一千大的這個範圍如果更放寬以後也許可以符合委員希望多引進這個人才的這樣子的一個方向我不知道教育部會有沒有補充"},{"start":7714.793,"end":7720.244,"text":"你們實務上難以執行的這個地方在哪裡可以再說明一下嗎"},{"start":7723.12,"end":7746.705,"text":"報告委員就是以現今的專業領域的排名因為我們綜合性的排名還是以那三個為主三個機構包括QS 泰晤士報跟US News & World Report為主那要找到這樣子相等同的公信力的排名其實不容易再者就是說其實即使這三個排行它也有"},{"start":7747.746,"end":7771.949,"text":"針對他的學門領域有去做一些排名嘛那他的排名的結果其實有的比如說某些領域他可能只有排名到前20有的領域可以排名到500所以他這其中差異也是非常大我舉個例子好了我想委員關切一些特殊領域比如說像ParsonsInstitute他這個在設計方面非常的有名嘛"},{"start":7772.469,"end":7801.769,"text":"但是他原來的綜合排名他是跟另外一個學校是一起的他是在700多名那我們現在已經從500大放寬到1000嘛那所以其實已經有納進去這樣的學校那他在他設計的領域排名可以說全球可能是前10名甚至百大但是因為我們已經放寬了他就已經被納進去了所以這個排行的範圍已經是越來越大可以包括這些特殊領域的一些學門"},{"start":7802.77,"end":7815.47,"text":"好 以上所以您的意思就是說就算是說我們不把這些特殊專業優勢學院列到董門法條裡面實際上它已經在這個前一千前一千的這個"},{"start":7817.926,"end":7846.708,"text":"本來就已經列在有一些遺珠可能被五百大排除但是因為我們放寬到一千大所以其實它已經納入的意思但是當然委員擔心說還是有一些遺珠只是說那個會增加我們很多複雜性因為第一個必須要有公信力我們沒辦法就是它有一些很特別的比如說古典音樂或什麼古典什麼一些教學它有很特別的領域那它的排名數本來就很小可能全世界只有"},{"start":7848.189,"end":7862.558,"text":"20個那以這樣子來跟其他的學校比如說排名到1000大來相比其實是有複雜性的我們變成要伸出很多名冊來OK 好了解好那個我再跟這個教育部"},{"start":7863.669,"end":7885.317,"text":"以及國發會有在確認 因為剛剛次長的回應是說會參考賴瑞榮委員的文字那賴瑞榮的文字是列入教育部外國大學參考名冊之大學校院那跟行政院的文字是世界大學排名前1000名那這兩個文字的差異在哪邊呢"},{"start":7886.838,"end":7906.213,"text":"跟主席報告,那個因為只要是教育部目前他認可的學校其實都會寫在他那個範圍裡面,其實是蠻大的所以剛剛我們有跟那個賴委員這個報告,是不是雙方的共識是我們就把1000名改成1500名那這個文字我們都會給賴委員爭取他的同意"},{"start":7907.629,"end":7923.671,"text":"所以你們要從1000再放寬到1000是是是比較符合賴委員的這個修正的動議的方向那他還有一段文字是符合法定薪資標準這個他同意是應該是不需要這不需要是是我們這個文字會給賴委員這個簽名同意"},{"start":7925.503,"end":7939.058,"text":"好那不然你們還是一樣把你們的文字擬出來我們這一條一樣是等下回過頭再處理好不好那先把文字都擬過來後給在場除了賴銳龍委員以外每位委員都要參考好不好好"},{"start":7940.134,"end":7955.032,"text":"那我們接下來處理第6條回過頭再處理我們先處理第7條那第7條的條文每位委員的提案都跟行政院版本一致那我們是不是就按行政院條文文字通過第7條"},{"start":7959.124,"end":7985.751,"text":"好第7條沒有問題就按行政院的文字通過好處理第8條那第8條每位委員的提案也跟行政院的條文文字一致我們是不是按行政院版本通過好那我們接下來處理第9條那第9條呢第9條有羅美玲委員的提案是不是請羅委員可以先"},{"start":7987.841,"end":8005.388,"text":"好 謝謝主席 第九條的部分文西的這個文字裡面有增加了並因查核申請人是否有入出國籍移民法其他法律或主管機關公告制限制入境管制出入國等情形 為什麼會增加了這段文字"},{"start":8006.368,"end":8026.317,"text":"針對於這個申請就業金卡過去在實務上我們就有看到明明我們已經和明明這位外籍人士已經取得了這個就業金卡可是他因為其他的原因被限制入境那像之前有一個美國籍的這個YouTuber他就獲得核發文化藝術類的就業金卡的資格"},{"start":8027.037,"end":8053.359,"text":"可是呢他後來呢並沒有辦法入境為什麼呢因為這位美國籍的YouTuber因為他先前在總統大選期間上政論節目涉及非法工作所以呢他就採取管制一定時間沒有辦法入境所以等於是他申請居然是說我們核發的這個就業金卡他一樣沒有辦法進到國內所以我們覺得說這查核這個勾擊出了問題所以這部分應該是在核發"},{"start":8054.56,"end":8083.4,"text":"的时候就要查明这个人他有没有后续有没有说没有办法入境的这些情形出现我们发现之前就发生过两次那当然国防会说这个是移民署的责任可是问题是你们要如何去勾击呢这应该是你们横向应该是出了问题吧你们不能说这是移民署的责任你只负责核发金卡可是呢因为他就是先前可能有一些状况可是移民署就不让他入境总不能发生这种事情吧"},{"start":8084.855,"end":8109.105,"text":"好請問這如何這如何構機來請相關部會來針對羅委員的發言來做回應謝謝羅委員那個有關於您提到的事情我們事後有立刻做檢討了那的確是在行政上其實是有規定那為了避免再發生類似的情形所以我們現在整個的電腦的作業系統已經改了那有關於"},{"start":8111.038,"end":8138.552,"text":"部分說明一下我就是想要了解說你們後來因為發生這種狀況你們電腦有改那怎麼改呢有連線嗎是是有連線因為本來的作業系統是懲辦人員他要去查詢他要去查詢有沒有註記一些違法的事情那在註記方面是有了只不過有一兩個個案是疏忽到沒有去查詢那現在變成懲辦人員在作業的時候電腦會自動只要有註記他會自動跳出來會"},{"start":8140.033,"end":8162.877,"text":"會跟承辦同仁提醒說有這樣的狀況以避免產生萬一有同仁一時疏忽造成的這個問題所以我們在整個作業系統上已經做了處理那因為這個是比較行政作業系統上的問題我們會持續強化所以我們建議在法案上是不是還是按照行政院的版本"},{"start":8163.65,"end":8191.91,"text":"反正法案這樣子寫 你們以後就遵照這麼做嘛你拿掉的話是 你們就需要拿掉的原因是什麼因為你本來就要這麼做了啊 你們就不需要這麼做啊是 但是因為我想還是我們立法體制的問題啦就是有一些我們行政部門本來應該做的事項我們不會把每一個都寫在法律裡面但是相關的事情我們當然已經有現在的規定我們也會持續講話那這樣子把它放在立法說明好不好"},{"start":8193.211,"end":8194.933,"text":"這個移民署要說明一下嗎主席委員"},{"start":8212.864,"end":8239.054,"text":"有關這個案子的部分的話那因為本署已經召開我們署內的部分那也跟署外的單位有做一些聯繫那確實是剛剛誠如我們國發會的長官所談的目前為止我們已經改善相關的系統也在我們的註記的部分特別以明顯的顏色來做區分那也特別請我們的服務站所有的主管針對有註記的部分都應該由主管來加註意見之後才能去做核發"},{"start":8239.834,"end":8268.195,"text":"來做改善 那希望以後這部分情況不會再發生 以上來 羅委員好 那如果羅委員願意應該是說有接受行政院剛剛的論述的話那我們文字部分是不是按行政院的條文來通過OK 文字按照行政院的條文通過 這個我可以接受可是呢 剛剛我們所提到就是這段文字可以放在立法說明裡面"},{"start":8269.337,"end":8275.311,"text":"OK 這沒問題嘛好那這部分把它放在這個立法說明"},{"start":8277.025,"end":8303.858,"text":"好那我們第9條條文就按行政院文字通過那立法說明請這個這個國安會這邊朝你齁那一樣是先給我們看一下好不好好我們現在處理第10條第10條的條文所有委員的版本都跟行政院版本一致我們是不是就按行政院的條文文字通過好來接下來處理第11條"},{"start":8310.074,"end":8334.075,"text":"第11條第11條有賴瑞榮委員的修正動議那以及黃婕委員的文字跟行政院不一樣還有我自己的我自己的文字好那是不是請這個國發會來說明"},{"start":8339.611,"end":8364.857,"text":"是跟主席跟各位委員報告那謝謝委員的建議啦齁那我們這個是主要是放寬這個世界排名前200大的這個大學畢業生可以在台灣就是直接申請工作齁但是我們規定是不得延期及重新申請那主席蔡委員的版本主要是提到不得延期但是沒有重新申請啦那我們覺得"},{"start":8365.598,"end":8387.539,"text":"是不是還是可以按照行政院的版本那剛剛賴瑞榮委員的修正動議他是建議把200大放換為500大那我們也有跟賴委員溝通因為這個其實我們是參考世界其他國家譬如說英國他是開放世界前50大那其他的國家大概在針對這個可以自由"},{"start":8389.04,"end":8410.629,"text":"工作這方面相對比較嚴謹所以賴委員也同意我們可以做一些橫頻的考量所以這個我們是不是建議還是參考行政院的版本那黃委員的部分也是提到這個排名的部分他也是特別再加了一下這個特定的專業領域或者考量國家重點產業"},{"start":8412.33,"end":8438.819,"text":"那有關於這部分其實在前面那個剛剛討論到那個一千大的部分已經說明那可能還是希望有這個比較一致性的標準實務上可以比較容易推動所以我們建議是不是按照行政院的版本以上這個我的提案就是說如果他要重新申請的話你們也是不同不同意就對了算是已經是一個對"},{"start":8442.489,"end":8460.034,"text":"就是兩年限期不能再讓他再重新再申請是是是好那沒關係我也我尊重尊重這個國發會來我們現在對第11條的文字就按行政院的版本通過大家有意見沒有OK"},{"start":8461.206,"end":8479.559,"text":"好那就第11條條文就按行政院文字通過第12條所有委員版本一致那我們是按行政院的文字通過OK好按行政院文字通過第13條所有委員也是跟行政院版本一致我們也按行政院的文字通過"},{"start":8480.559,"end":8498.589,"text":"那個 抱歉抱歉那個 朝偉因為剛剛我突然有事喔12條我可以補問一下那個問題就好 好嗎好 來因為12條是新增嘛不好意思 因為我的版本還在路上齁那所以我是想問問題是說因為這題是說外國人取得我國副學士"},{"start":8500.03,"end":8516.482,"text":"我們看到是說這個是參採歐洲很多國家的流財制度像英國、德國、荷蘭等等可是歐洲這些國家的制度都是開放學士以上的畢業生為什麼我們是放寬副學士我覺得攬財的用意非常好"},{"start":8517.102,"end":8532.125,"text":"那但是就是說因為現在我們在教育文化委員會裡面那一直在跟教育部處理大量外籍學生有兩年的打黑工的機會然後甚至有少數學校就是好像跟公司工廠合作"},{"start":8532.786,"end":8551.518,"text":"利用這個機會然後變成是一個風險那所以想請問剛剛就是國發會可不可以先談一下別的國家是開放學士為什麼我們是副學士那也請問教育部如何避免就是這種風險那保障我們外籍畢業生的工作權"},{"start":8555.34,"end":8577.215,"text":"來請國發會員說明謝謝范委員的這個問題喔那有關於傅學士的部分因為我們也認為說傅學士也是在台灣受教育嘛所以像這些他所習得的這些技術我想也是我們企業所需要啦所以當初在訂法律的時候第12條這次算沒有修正那之前的我想立法理由就是希望"},{"start":8577.995,"end":8606.769,"text":"這樣的人才我們希望還是能夠留下來為我們所用所以才有這樣子的規定那委員提到說我們怎麼避免這些可能一些必變我們是不是請教一部說明一下 謝謝來 請教一部是 跟委員說明這個條文的意思是說在我國取得副學士以上那當然包括學士他在密職 他有一定的密職期間嘛那是可以讓他不要申請工作許可證"},{"start":8607.449,"end":8635.722,"text":"是這個意思那個國發會好像剛剛沒有回應說學士跟副學士差異的人是多少然後大概在哪些人教育部沒有回應說你們現在那個打黑工的問題還沒有解決對不對那這個副學士開放對教育部來講是影響哪些學校哪些人那你們怎麼解決補上這個大家擔心的這個還有甚至成為那個奴工制度的問題"},{"start":8637.857,"end":8661.773,"text":"是那個跟委員報告那個確實的人數可能再跟委員這個另外說明一下我手上目前沒有確實的人數不過副學士大概主要就是像以前我們這些專科學校的那當然現在比較少了對但是還是有一些大概最新的是266人副學士的部分"},{"start":8663.506,"end":8687.878,"text":"266人會申請是不是所以就是增加這266人對你們來講很重要就對了因為其他國家都用學士我們把它改成副學士可能每個學士國家的制度不太一樣歷年的畢業人數其實都在"},{"start":8689.298,"end":8713.659,"text":"一百人以下一二年只有八十五人那就是說因為教育部剛剛也沒有回應我的問題啦我基本上是尊重行政院的全盤的考慮可是我們會擔心說變成有些學校會不會要退場然後反而沒有然後變成是一個新的洞那教育部是不是可以寫一個附帶決議說你們怎麼避免我們擔心的問題好不好"},{"start":8714.92,"end":8741.687,"text":"就是說你們支持國發會這個開放到副學士可是現在看起來人很少不代表未來會人很少那他萬一變成是一個就是你知道奇怪的地方的話不是我們樂見的因為我們是要專業攬財嘛那教育部可不可以寫一個附帶決議針對這個第12條跟其他國家不一樣要開放到副學士的部分好不好那個教育部OK吧好 那主席就這樣"},{"start":8745.695,"end":8770.602,"text":"這個針對范委員剛剛提示的這附帶決議是不是也好所以第12條一樣是照剛剛宣讀依行政院的版本新增通過來第13條也宣讀過了好第14條新增條文那有羅美玲委員的文字跟行政院有不一樣的那是不是請羅委員來發言"},{"start":8773.235,"end":8797.761,"text":"這個部分國發會有來討論過這個部分我可以接受原版OK好那我們第14條就按照行政院的版本新增通過有異議沒有的話就按行政院版本新增通過接下來處理第15條那第15條有賴瑞榮委員的版本那是不是這個國發會有溝通嗎"},{"start":8804.113,"end":8809.416,"text":"第15條抱歉我拿一下讓我給我看這也滿好的"},{"start":8831.057,"end":8852.066,"text":"這個賴瑞榮委員的文字主要是在第15條的第一項部分那第一項部分他把該工作許可期間不得預期依親居留期間他把這樣的文字把它拿掉是了解那個我沒有跟賴委員溝通因為我們的文字裡面後面還有一個工作"},{"start":8854.227,"end":8874.305,"text":"工作許可期間不得逾期依親居留那這份賴委員的版本是把它刪掉不過這個可能會造成一些困擾那我們有跟這個賴委員溝通那他也同意有溝通好有溝通就好那第15條就按照15條"},{"start":8879.554,"end":8900.708,"text":"好 范委員好 15條我是要問那個內政部問題因為你這邊這個是經內政部移民署許可的那個高級專業人才的配偶可以在我國一遷居留嘛那我覺得依內政部許可是好的那我只想問這個配偶的定義是不是包含就是"},{"start":8901.829,"end":8926.079,"text":"就是同性婚姻就是有合法的同性婚姻關係的或者是在第三地的合法的婚姻關係的那個配偶我看國發會主委國發會代表是點頭嘛好那如果點頭的話是不是也有一個附帶決議把它說清楚因為有些時候好那個是內政部嗎來內政部說明"},{"start":8929.693,"end":8942.63,"text":"主席好委員那我們對於所謂的配偶的定義的部分因為外國人的配偶有可能是五國國人也有可能是外國人有外一外也有可能是同性配偶這些都是包含在裡面的以上"},{"start":8944.986,"end":8966.756,"text":"那這個內政部是不是也寫一個附帶決議把這個事項可以說清楚好不好有包含讓大家知道沒有歧視然後因為這裡面有一些複雜的規定你們應該比我更了解好不好好那謝謝所以第15條也請這邊擬一下附帶決議那第15條就按行政院的版本通過來我們接下來處理第16條第16條"},{"start":8975.134,"end":8987.534,"text":"第16條都一樣啦就是因為我們修正條文是寫的內政部移民署那委員的版本比較沒有"},{"start":8991.055,"end":9009.307,"text":"主要是一些法治上的用語不太一樣所以我們就是就只有那個就尊重行政院的版本因為好像就是只有內政部移民署這個文字修正而已好那就按行政院的版本文字通過來處理第17條17條好像也是一樣"},{"start":9013.815,"end":9021.523,"text":"對 就法制的用語而已 黃婕委員的好 那就按照行政院的版本通過OK 謝謝好 處理第18條那第18條有賴瑞榮委員跟何欣淳委員"},{"start":9035.246,"end":9055.379,"text":"來 是不是請行政院說明一下您有沒有跟這些提案的委員溝通呢是 有關於何委員的部分有一些差異但是我們 我有跟何委員說明那何委員表示支持有關何委員是建議支持我們的行政院版本那賴瑞榮委員那有關於"},{"start":9058.954,"end":9072.963,"text":"賴偉那部分我們剛剛這部分我們是還在跟他溝通他是這個你們那個折抵的部分你們是兩年他是提案是三年"},{"start":9075.407,"end":9091.75,"text":"那學士副學士是折抵一年他是折抵兩年這部分我們碩士碩士兩年那學士副學士一年好那我們請同仁說明一下剛溝通的跟賴委員說明的結果"},{"start":9093.707,"end":9113.087,"text":"是跟委員報告就有關賴委員提案博士學位折抵三年碩士學位折抵兩年這個部分我們是可以支持競票同意那至於就是第二項第二項有關在外國特定專業人才碩士"},{"start":9114.108,"end":9133.135,"text":"學位者要折抵一年六個月那這個部分我經跟漁民署討論這種六個月的部分在執行上是有困難的所以我們建議就是還是維持一年這樣子因為這個部分是一年六個月這個部分在永居的認定上面是有困難的"},{"start":9135.06,"end":9159.936,"text":"好所以你折抵的部分奈瑞隆委員的就是說他們折抵的年限博士是三年碩士是兩年這個都比你們的原始版本要多一年這你們是同意的是那這個但是他的文字有這個據多種學位者謹得折一折抵那這樣的文字你們你們的看法"},{"start":9162.125,"end":9177.312,"text":"等一下要不要把你們整個可以修正的部分然後全部把它列出來好嗎你全部列出來因為這樣看起來蠻亂的對啊你全部列出來我們再回來再處理那我們第18條我們等一下回過頭處理來處理第19條來18條有謝一鳳召委的附帶決議來是不是請宣讀"},{"start":9192.318,"end":9212.686,"text":"委員謝玉鳳等所提第18條附帶決議鑒於我國勞動力短缺導應於少子女化與高齡化問題國發會應統籌相關部會依各類專業工作供需狀況分別訂定外籍專業人才每年申請永久居留名額並適時檢討政策執行狀況穩當修正之宣言完畢"},{"start":9218.814,"end":9234.348,"text":"好那我們這附帶決議等條文處理後再來一併處理來我們處理第19條第19條有我跟羅美玲的委員的版本那來這個羅委員你要發言嗎一樣啦齁"},{"start":9245.085,"end":9258.557,"text":"應該是一樣的 一樣 只是條文的架構那這一條我們就第19條就按行政院的版本文字通過是謝謝好沒問題接下來處理第"},{"start":9260.74,"end":9278.769,"text":"現行法第17條行政院提案刪除所有委員版本也一致我們是不是就按照行政院的文字然後把現行法第17條刪除好沒有問題那就以行政院的版本來做處理來接下來處理第20條那第20條勒"},{"start":9284.314,"end":9296.936,"text":"有我還有羅美玲委員的版本那這份羅委員也要發言嗎我可以照願版那就照願版好 那我也照願版"},{"start":9299.226,"end":9315.205,"text":"好那第20條一樣是按行政院的版本提案通過來處理21條21條也是全部的版本都跟行政院版本通過我們是按行政院版本文字通過好按行政院版本通過第22條"},{"start":9317.776,"end":9336.113,"text":"也是一樣22條有我的提案那這一條我就比較堅持了因為行政院的文字是就是課300萬那我是改成200萬那我主要的一個理由就是說我們要增加這樣的國際競爭力而且這些國際競爭力他們來台灣就業"},{"start":9343.5,"end":9365.868,"text":"他們要課多少稅這個是他們會很計較的我想這個每一個國家的人都一樣到那個國家工作那我要被課多少稅那我覺得這應該要比照新加坡甚至是香港新加坡香港事實上他們的課稅的這個額度都比我們現在低很多那我認為現在行政院所列的300萬"},{"start":9367.748,"end":9395.835,"text":"這個競爭力仍然不夠所以我具體的建議是把它改成兩百萬的科稅額度起算五年來做這個免稅的那這是行政院可以國發會這邊可以說明一下我們復議復議稍微的因為在跟國際搶人才你的誘因不夠放寬既是放寬鬆綁的幅度不夠那誘因不足我不曉得怎麼跟國際搶人才所以我復議稍微的"},{"start":9396.872,"end":9413.652,"text":"好 謝謝戴發委員謝謝委員的建議啦這的確我們也覺得對租稅競爭力對我們引進人才當然有一定的幫助我想這點方向上我們很肯定不過租稅的部分因為考慮的面向可能更多一點所以是不是我們可以請負稅署來做個說明來 請負稅署"},{"start":9419.265,"end":9439.258,"text":"複稅署說明一下就是這一條主要是為了我們吸引這些比較高階而且具有特地專長的這個國際人才所以我們給他租稅優惠那因為是這種國際的人才他大概是各國或者是各個企業競相爭取的所以他其實他的薪資會比較高那我們就是用300萬元來認定說這個是我們"},{"start":9443.2,"end":9466.349,"text":"是國際上競相爭取那我們也需要的人才用這個300萬元當作一個認定的基準那如果把這個300萬元再往下修因為這個租稅優惠條文它很特別它其實是一個超國民待遇也就是說我們國人不能適用那只有外國的來台的人才才可以適用那所以它是一個超國民待遇那如果把這個門檻"},{"start":9467.349,"end":9476.916,"text":"往下修的話那我們可能也要考慮到說這個200多萬的人才其實國內的人才其實也非常的多那這個也要考慮到說這個國內的這個人才的這個橫平性然後會不會造成這個國內人才的這個不公平的競爭等等的問題所以我們認為說這個可能也要再審慎的考量以上說明"},{"start":9491.975,"end":9509.915,"text":"這個我的看法說齁因為你們賦稅署可能是站在對國內人才的公平性問題但是我比較著重的是跟外國的比較也就是外國在於這一個免稅額度的一個制定他們的金額大概是多少我覺得台灣應該"},{"start":9510.996,"end":9526.861,"text":"要保持說至少我們要跟其他類似的國家日本、新加坡、香港同等的競爭力我們不用比他們還要低沒關係但至少要有一個同等的競爭力這個是不是可以說明一下跟外國相比的"},{"start":9530.102,"end":9554.239,"text":"這個大概以個人稅制而言大概新加坡它其實是比較特殊比較低的但是如果我們要去跟譬如說像日本、韓國、美國等等比其實我們的個人中手稅的租稅待遇並沒有比較重是一般在國際上算是很平的有整理嗎?"},{"start":9556.521,"end":9577.955,"text":"有但是我現在手上沒有我們可不可以等一下再補充我複製主席兩點第一個其他講到的這個香港新加坡他們其實在這個國民所得來講都比我們高比我們高的情況之下他的扣稅額又比我們低"},{"start":9579.336,"end":9587.424,"text":"這是第一個所以你的講法就不攻自破了人家的國民所得比我們高但他優惠的更低"},{"start":9589.29,"end":9606.347,"text":"那第二個我們台灣的個人眾所遂的是高稅率高達45%我知道的像40%新加坡我了解的是17%日本的也百分之多少他都沒有到40%對於高所得這一個部分"},{"start":9609.56,"end":9626.238,"text":"所以光是這兩點我不曉得在你的所謂這個租稅公平的利基點上我覺得是會被挑戰的跟委員再說明一下適用這一條租稅優惠的這個這個"},{"start":9630.133,"end":9643.101,"text":"目前適用的行為我們有去統計啦他大概適用了這個租稅優惠以後他的有效稅率已經降到15%了已經其實算是很有我們的這樣子的稅制其實已經很有國際競爭力了來這個國發會呢國發會要不要表示意見"},{"start":9659.494,"end":9676.298,"text":"其實就名目、稅率而言當然每個國家不一樣所以如果在相同的條件下我們希望我們更有競爭力的話租稅也許是一個可以考慮的方向所以我們在這方面是方向上我想跟委員的想法是一致的不過"},{"start":9676.938,"end":9699.004,"text":"我們還是要尊重財政部他們這個橫拼的結果那他剛剛提出兩點是有關國內的部分還有實質稅率的部分那這點就是請委員再考慮你現在說方向跟我們一致我就不知道要怎麼處理你跟負稅署內部就打架啦"},{"start":9703.615,"end":9707.577,"text":"我們停飛委員也正在 休息五分鐘 趕快就這個 趕快來協調一下"},{"start":9731.557,"end":9731.577,"text":"好,謝謝!"},{"start":9749.851,"end":9754.014,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":9766.341,"end":9766.621,"text":"OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":9795.58,"end":9799.023,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":9811.752,"end":9814.454,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":9825.604,"end":9835.987,"text":"一樣是這幾個,不會說三排改三排又不蠻不錯的,不蠻好的,就是其實我當的前世都是...我很謝謝委員,真的,非常好,非常好,非常好,非常好"},{"start":9856.35,"end":9856.37,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":9896.78,"end":9908.244,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":9930.965,"end":9935.429,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":9941.863,"end":9943.866,"text":"這裏是一間酒店"},{"start":9960.638,"end":9960.678,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":10017.837,"end":10018.578,"text":"好現在繼續開會"},{"start":10020.56,"end":10040.993,"text":"那第22條那剛剛我們休息討論那基於說因為這個是外國的專業人才所以這些高階人才基本上他的薪資大概都會超過300萬所以不管是訂200還是訂300適用的大概"},{"start":10044.195,"end":10073.025,"text":"同樣一群人所以不會因為改成200就會增加哪些所以大概不會有說影響競爭力的一個狀況所以我願意接受可是同樣的啦回過頭那如果事實上他也不衝擊國內的專業人才因為國內的專業人才薪水不可能會比外國的就一定低到哪裡去那但是當然還是會有其他的人的一些觀感問題"},{"start":10075.123,"end":10096.878,"text":"那我就同意我們這條文就按行政院的版本通過來大家有意見沒有意見就按行政院的文字通過來處理第23條那23算是一樣的都一樣我們就按行政院的版本文字通過好處理第24條"},{"start":10104.163,"end":10119.855,"text":"來24條文字好像都差不多對他大概就是法資用語而已如果大家同意的話我們是不是就按行政院的版本通過好同意我們處理第25條是新增條文"},{"start":10121.138,"end":10140.651,"text":"那新增條文部分我和羅美玲委員的版本事實上這也是法治用語的差異差不多那這邊如果沒有問題的話我們是按行政院的版本來通過同意好依行政院文字通過新增新增通過第26條那第26條"},{"start":10147.708,"end":10169.284,"text":"好像也一樣 也是文字的文字用語好那也是法治用語的差異而已我們也是按行政院的版本來通過來處理第27條新增條文一樣是法治用語的差異那就依27條依行政院的文字通過 處理28條現在一樣喔"},{"start":10178.524,"end":10206.227,"text":"好 那請發明委員發言這個28條因為涉及到就是說目前很多身心障礙就是無法自理生活的人那他們在爭取關於那個個人助理的核發時數的時候像我剛剛還去參加一個記者會就涉及到台北市政府怎麼認定的問題那政府這邊衛福部經常會說資源不足其實就是錢的問題"},{"start":10207.608,"end":10229.716,"text":"那我想從一個平等跟爭取外國人的話我們專業人才我們會希望說28條這個部分可以照院本通過那但是如何避免就是就是藏權者擔心說資源排擠那我想衛福部可能要講清楚那然後我剛剛看到有幾個委員有個附帶決議那這部分"},{"start":10233.377,"end":10261.903,"text":"衛福部今天有代表在是不是可以公開說明一下因為我剛剛看那個附帶決議就是說要用額外的預算那這樣子能夠讓大家更清楚那也可以從預算中知道就是到底這方面使用的情況如何因為一方面衛福部跟大家說資源不足然後這邊我們國內的就覺得個人助理的時數太少了那大家就會擔心排擠那可是從吸引人才的話你應該要有合理的開放嘛那這部分衛福部可以講一下"},{"start":10262.967,"end":10287.619,"text":"好 那這次請衛福部來說明一下謝謝主席 謝謝委員的垂詢我想這一點有關於委員垂詢的這個自立生活的部分如果說是目前我們以第28條的條文來講它的確是被放在裡面的那目前我們估算出來整體我們在第28條大概以114年我們推估可能會增加的預算大概是580幾萬那115年大概是接近700萬這樣的一個預算"},{"start":10292.441,"end":10316.133,"text":"那我们评估这样的预算应该是我们卫福部编列预算来讲是足以指引的因为事实上在这样的服务里头我们其实跟地方政府是协力合作的那以委员所提的这些案例的确它有很特殊的案例那也有很一般的案例那很特殊的案例我们大概会借着我们专业团队的一个审查来跟我们的障碍者之间来拉近距离"},{"start":10316.493,"end":10345.481,"text":"最主要是我们的个人照顾服务办法里面最主要是协助我们的声音障碍者社会参与的部分那现在声音障碍者比较多是个人身体照顾他其实是生活的部分那我们也尽量的来拉近这个距离所以我想在这个部分我们会持续的来跟障碍团体来做一个沟通让彼此的这个需求可以更为拉近那至于审查团队的状况我们也会来精进让他们的整个审查是有所依据的"},{"start":10346.181,"end":10360.519,"text":"避免說縣市之間有太大的一個差距這樣 以上報告那個昭瑋我再追問一下所以聽起來你剛剛說外國人這邊需要的資源好像年度沒有超過一千萬是不是 目前"},{"start":10361.378,"end":10380.865,"text":"我們的推估是這樣子那當然要推估來講還要看看實際落實的狀況那因為未來就是說我們那個帳權法也正在修改嘛對不對理論上就是說應該是朝向更多的社福資源的提供對不對那我想就是如果你們推估是OK的話"},{"start":10381.525,"end":10409.363,"text":"那另外還有申請上各地方政府是不是都有就是譬如說至少英文的這個版本的申請書等等那這部分目前應該是還沒有嘛那是不是你也衛福部這邊也寫一個附帶決議讓大家知道這部分就是如果你真的開放了然後制度上大家是用得到的好不好好友善的好那個廷輝委員完那個超平委員"},{"start":10410.458,"end":10411.902,"text":"謝謝朝偉 其實28跟29其實大家當時候比較真一點就是說"},{"start":10416.616,"end":10441.593,"text":"它排擠到我們國內自己的一個身心障礙這些服務的資源所以我覺得這個部分請衛福部一定要在這個區塊就是說怎麼能夠兼顧到照顧到我們專業人才他們相關的一個權益可是也不排擠到我們自己國內這一塊長照的區塊這可能是比較重要的"},{"start":10442.273,"end":10458.138,"text":"那我們就尊重你們尊重你們的專業但是呢這個部分還是要讓我們國內的民眾會安心這是重點 謝謝來 陳昌明委員這次希望的外國專業人才研覽及顧問"},{"start":10465.014,"end":10486.127,"text":"法的修正草案大概分為四個面項第一個工作第一個停機留錢、數位保障還有其他主席我比較晚到但是第四條我們提案的第四條你那邊只增加數位"},{"start":10487.268,"end":10505.599,"text":"但是生物科技很重要你這邊再增加一個生技好不好這可能未來比台積電還要重要的一個產業我希望這邊能很明確的生技產業有沒有困難不要只有電頭,電頭表是好與不好"},{"start":10507.28,"end":10519.848,"text":"因為這邊弱了,大家現在只想到AI,AI很重要其實台灣的生機未來發展很重要,我希望能加上生機,有沒有困難?謝謝陳委員,我們實際上在處理的時候,的確生醫方面是蠻多人來申請現在沒有這個領域,所以我們透過會商的方式處理"},{"start":10531.796,"end":10560.956,"text":"你說透過怎樣處理會商因為我們除了特定的領域之外我們也會增加一個你一定要加上生技你不要這樣小笑現在AI再瘋狂你跟著瘋狂AI仍然有一段路要走我們都很知道這個情形但是生技產業一定要拿進去這個未來很重要一個產業因為它配合著AI未來新藥新的製程新的方式出來我希望能加上生技"},{"start":10561.636,"end":10571.816,"text":"好 謝謝我們的召委我希望第四條裡面他加一個數位裡面能再加一個生計產業"},{"start":10573.973,"end":10598.851,"text":"再加一個什麼生技生技生技產業好不好這個很重要第四條因為我們等一下會回過頭處理所以你們在整理文字的時候是不是把超明委員的意見列為考量因為第四條還沒處理過我們會再回過頭今天所有我們都全議會支持換換人才進來台灣是民主自由國家"},{"start":10600.049,"end":10604.582,"text":"但是你給他放寬了這些其實作用不大"},{"start":10605.967,"end":10633.449,"text":"你現在像我們AI的人才我們台灣變成新鏈手我們還在養養得益很多AI的人才都被挖走了所以你國外會特別注意這一點但是你吸引人才進來的話我覺得啊 資稅的優惠非常重要你們現在300萬你現在用多少錢去想台積電近期的員工我現在大概比較資深的話大概一個月債20幾萬"},{"start":10636.058,"end":10664.048,"text":"到30萬的出頭但是在美國Google公司幾個大的公司一進去的話他的月薪大概值台幣五六十萬他們是這樣吸引人才所以這邊你那個租稅的優惠條件你沒有降低不足以吸引我們人才留在這邊所以你這租稅優稅這邊都弄出來了看起來非常好其實功效不大財政部呢"},{"start":10665.56,"end":10692.3,"text":"那個複稅署複稅署在哪裡?複稅署有說明說他用三百萬大概就是說現在二十五萬左右月薪三百萬三百萬你七十二也差二五萬跟二七萬二百萬左右"},{"start":10695.987,"end":10715.616,"text":"啊你現在用台積電的水準去算所以你又起手人才一百這邊有困難你用這樣去換算所以你在三百萬的齁這樣不足以吸引人才我覺得在兩百萬左右齁我是感受齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁"},{"start":10725.206,"end":10737.222,"text":"你看歐美的公司鈔票他們自己運的薪水都特別的高啊你如果要去抵擋得了人往高這把水往低處流薪水高的地方就跑到那個地方去了"},{"start":10739.885,"end":10763.551,"text":"好,來請負稅署再說明一下你們要觀念要改變啦,不要天天只想縮錢啦請他們來替我們賺錢最重要啦好不好來,剛剛你們告訴我的那個計算方式是不是再跟陳超明委員說明一下你想說台積電,我們家台積電薪水大家最高最喜歡,不然用年華科兩個公司去比較"},{"start":10764.656,"end":10781.682,"text":"二十幾萬算很高啦阿你現在這樣怎麼吸引外國人來台灣好不好阿你想到歐美剛剛有談到歐洲他們薪水特別高你要怎麼吸引人你沒有這邊在優惠的話怎麼要吸引人才"},{"start":10782.796,"end":10799.385,"text":"好不好 考量一下啦 不要只想收入啦負稅署說明一下我們這個租稅優惠其實是蠻優惠我們有去統計是用這個租稅優惠它的實質有效所以大概只剩下15%也就是說本來明目稅率是40%"},{"start":10800.345,"end":10818.482,"text":"那用了這個優惠以後它的實質的有效稅已經大幅降到15那這幾年來我們從107年度開始來提供這個租稅優惠到大概112年度大概這6年期間其實在這個部分已經整體而言已經減少了大概40億的稅收在這個吸引"},{"start":10821.464,"end":10842.722,"text":"四十億在這個租稅優惠部分來吸引這個國際的高階人才所以其實這個是相當的優惠的四十億等於差不多一億多美金而已在整體上台灣的GDP裡面占的非常少我們是希望人才能創造更高的"},{"start":10844.035,"end":10854.617,"text":"臺灣的未來前景我們一定要領先 你就要用這個改變40億在這裡有什麼你這樣繼續計較會很多外國優秀人才不會來這個地方你再去考慮 40億不算多我講真的 我們外銷現在很好 我們永遠"},{"start":10866.792,"end":10885.35,"text":"要創造我們家具人才非常重要考量一下不要說我少了40億可能跟你創造的4千億出來也不一定你現在不要看這樣科技的時候很難講一個稍微改變整個都改變了希望考量一下好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":10887.335,"end":10897.688,"text":"200就是一年 那一個月16萬啊300就是一個月25萬啊那到底會影響多少人數這是不是負稅數你們可以再具體說還是 國發會說明一下300跟200的差異就是這樣16萬跟25萬啊"},{"start":10906.789,"end":10930.961,"text":"你這個攬財你是不是有一個基本最基本的你不是有說嗎他一定是要16萬月薪16萬那月薪16萬那等於在家年終這樣所有他的年資所得是多少是啊你要這樣說明啊你在講說集聚誰理你集聚啦"},{"start":10931.991,"end":10959.364,"text":"我們現在在講競爭力嘛所以200萬你把它除以12就是那你們最低就一個月16萬嘛那如果12個月的話就是192萬不算年中沒有算年中就是192萬所以我們才會說以200萬這個如果是200萬就是等於看起來就是每個人都是用減稅的就是這個免稅額度因為"},{"start":10960.592,"end":10980.414,"text":"阿年終的話你就把它課嘛表示你賺的越多課的越多他們不會報應所以200跟300的差距到底在哪裡是不是負稅署可以說可以具體說一下所以說你認為200跟300是沒有差的所以我們剛剛照300萬的免稅額度來通過因為你們告訴我是沒有差距的嘛"},{"start":10981.432,"end":11005.228,"text":"那你是不是再跟陳委員再具體說明一下因為大家很在意這一點應該是說現在適用的人平均年薪平均是700多萬啦是700多萬是這樣子都是比較高薪高階的這樣子對那當然把這個法律上的門檻從300降到200就會變成大概大概會有更多的人進來用只是說這個是一個"},{"start":11008.891,"end":11032.064,"text":"感受問題因為這是超國民待遇那超國民待遇是不是我們還是維持一定的要求一定的門檻是不是比較適當這樣就實際上你們現在的平均的這些專業人才他們的平均薪資是700萬年薪700萬所以基本上都適用到就是300萬這個門檻也是幾乎都適用到了是夠用的對來國發會你們的負稅組這樣你們的看法"},{"start":11035.626,"end":11059.22,"text":"沒有啦 其實跟委員報告就是我們我們方向上當然還是希望水質上有比較有好的誘因啦是那所以我們是針對我們比較不是從國人的這個薪資的橫貧系來考量是從比較吸引外國優秀人才的這部分來考量啦那雖然說也許覺得好像"},{"start":11061.081,"end":11084.173,"text":"剛剛有提到說會有一些稅收的損失但是我想之前跟委員說明都是希望說這些人如果不來台灣這些稅收原則上我們也沒有所以希望盡量能夠在租稅上有競爭力更多的人來會比較好我想這是我們會理過去長期的立場應該都是這樣子好來曹平委員"},{"start":11088.934,"end":11112.883,"text":"負稅值考量一下如果你減了40億你再反向可能創造400億4千億出來也不一定永遠創新是現在最主要的科技的一個子流不要以你們的立場我稅收多稅一點我們超出那麼多不差上40億只要人才進來能創造台灣的競爭力最為重要好不好"},{"start":11113.783,"end":11125.67,"text":"稍微改變一下 看這樣子不要自己想像這樣而已我想因為這條我們剛才的討論有已經照行政院的文字通過了啦但是我覺得你們的"},{"start":11126.857,"end":11144.585,"text":"再想一下啦確實啦因為胡發會講的啊這些人不進來你根本課不到稅啊我們這個條文的用意就是要創造誘因嘛要有足夠的誘因讓這些人來台灣就業所以既然要創造誘因的話這個誘因就要把它做足"},{"start":11145.605,"end":11173.014,"text":"這個時候反而就不要再去講說這是超國的國民待遇我們要吸引他來就是創造誘因就是希望誘因給他們來所以沒關係我們也是今天我們也是照行政院的版本但是未來還有二讀五等一下 主席我現在還是聽不太懂到底降低到200萬的課稅跟300萬的課稅有什麼差別我還是回歸像陳昌明省委員問的你怎麼討論起來 結論是什麼"},{"start":11178.007,"end":11202.045,"text":"是跟委員報告因為行政院在討論的時候並沒有這個議題啦並沒有說要講所以目前國發會也沒有就這部分有相關的數據統計因為如果要其實要擴大租稅業會一般而言其實會先做稅市支出評估但是因為行政院版沒有這樣的話我副議就兩百萬"},{"start":11202.785,"end":11227.141,"text":"那如果之後協商你們覺得你們有做足準備你想要改再來改我是覺得我贊成國發會的立場因為國發會立場就是我們召委的立場那大家都在世界競爭人才我都覺得我們的誘因其實是不足的我們開放的條件是不夠的那連你們現在都還沒有辦法告訴我們委員會的委員們說我降低200的課稅到底會減少"},{"start":11232.304,"end":11248.584,"text":"多少跟你扣300我降低我定在300萬的一個收入的時候我會課多少你現在都講你都沒有實質的數據呀那既然沒有的話表示你到底會損失多少的稅收你也講不出來呀"},{"start":11249.025,"end":11275.998,"text":"那我們就站在國際淨財跟各世界各國淨財的角度那我這邊主張招委是不是就是直接能夠就用兩百萬等你們真的稅收覺得那個是稅收是會大損失但是就像超明委員講的啊它所造成的經濟效益是什麼每一個進來的科技人才所造成的科技產值它的營業額是什麼你們就精算嘛"},{"start":11276.678,"end":11288.645,"text":"那如果現在你們算不出來沒有做足功課你就來審查法案那是你們的問題我覺得還是站在國際政財的角度那如果大家同意的話我們是不是回過頭來處理22條雖然剛剛宣讀過了不過這個是一個很大的我們認為這個外國攬財的一個很重要的爭點因為我們要擴大"},{"start":11298.031,"end":11314.387,"text":"讓外國人才來臺灣就業的誘因所以我們希望是定債200萬這是我的提案那事實上也有代法委員跟超民委員的支持那如果大家都同意的話要不然按我的版本來通過"},{"start":11319.631,"end":11334.242,"text":"報告委員我們是希望因為這個條文是超國民待遇也就是外籍人才可以用但是本國的勞工不能用所以我們還是希望是說我們就吸引高階的外國人才來了以後整個把我們的產業的這個產業提升以後然後我們讓我們的更多人國人可以領高薪這樣子"},{"start":11342.148,"end":11369.879,"text":"那如果他們不來國人是不是還可以領高薪以及他們不來他們的專業國人是不是可以替代是那我們現在是法律案上我們是用300萬元當作這吸引他300萬元的人才他們來所創造的產值他所擔任職位所創造的產值跟本國的技術人才如果是在同樣類伯所造成產值你們去算啊"},{"start":11370.899,"end":11386.635,"text":"你們去算啊你們沒有辦法講出實質你從國內的很明顯這我也認同問題是今天沒有這些特殊專業的人來因為既然是高興沒有一個企業會笨到說我請一個高興然後呢他是來"},{"start":11388.957,"end":11409.991,"text":"來重複做本國的技術人才專業的沒有這回事啦就是本國人才的這些人可能他的專業是很好的但是我們希望再往高階去做的時候他的專業是本國人才應該可以再來做補充的那我們希望他來做那他所創造的場子當然會比本國人更高嘛"},{"start":11411.235,"end":11432.947,"text":"這才是這個我不會有一個企業說我願意發高薪來做全部都進來做重複本國人可以做的事情沒有一個企業會笨到這個程度啊所以你應該是從這個角度你真的是要企業攬財我相信你們老是想的跟大家想的就是還是在半導體產業的人才的競逐嘛這才是重點嘛"},{"start":11433.607,"end":11454.039,"text":"我請教一下付稅署啦 造行政院原本的文字是300萬嘛那300萬是不是超國民待遇 也是超國民待遇嘛所以一樣都是 這個條文一旦訂出來就是會本國人會有不一致那這個不一致就是也許你們說的不公平 原本條文300萬就是這樣了"},{"start":11455.901,"end":11462.991,"text":"那所以200跟300只是一個級距但是站在國發會的立場是認為說把它改成200對於"},{"start":11465.973,"end":11488.974,"text":"讓這個外國專業人才來的誘因會比300萬來的好一點看起來國發會是這樣認為那既然這樣以及國發會主管法案的機關那以及我們目前在場委員都認為用200萬一樣是超國民待遇但是200萬的誘因比較足那我們就照200萬的版本來通過好不好"},{"start":11491.28,"end":11518.477,"text":"主管 抱歉主管機關是國化會嘛現在現場立委都已經有贊成而且議會議員比較大我相信我是建議不要再堅持300就定200好不好好啦 那就這樣啦所以我就更正啦第22條就按照我的版本蔡議委員的版本修正通過好"},{"start":11523.155,"end":11544.901,"text":"來28條那28條事實上剛剛也都有討論了這個范雲委員也接受依依這個只是說你希望他們有附帶決議嘛那現在先領一下附帶決議那28條就按照行政院的版本修正文字通過新增通過來接下來處理第29條那29條勒"},{"start":11550.973,"end":11562.721,"text":"有我和羅美玲委員的文字那這文字大概也是一些屬於法治的用字用語那如果沒有意見的話我們是不是按照行政院的版本新政通過來請問副議員沒問題嗎"},{"start":11571.24,"end":11584.849,"text":"好那第29條就按行政院的文字新增通過那2829條這個謝一鳳委員陳昌明委員跟葛如君委員有提附帶決議請宣讀附帶決議"},{"start":11587.779,"end":11616.329,"text":"针对外国专业人才本人配偶未成年子女及因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女予获许可永久居留并经评估适用身心障碍者权益保障法第五十条第五十一条长期照顾服务法第八条之一第四项规定所提供之服务而衍生之相关费用未服务应以外加方式编列之应维持整体照顾服务品质与量能宣读完毕"},{"start":11617.5,"end":11618.321,"text":"來這個針對謝一鳳委員的附帶決議這個請這個主管機關國發會說明一下"},{"start":11627.488,"end":11648.045,"text":"針對謝委員的附帶決議原則上我們就是同意這樣子的文字那我們建議在最後倒數第二行衛福部應以外加方式編列之印這個文字能不能修正為衛福部應編列預算之印"},{"start":11649.446,"end":11673.663,"text":"就是把外加方式這幾個字這個提案陳昌明委員這邊如果照國發會的這個附帶決議修正這個範圍你就是直接說一定要編列預算來支援那是最好的他不好意思那你要更明瞭我們支持是謝謝就是文字修正為衛福部應"},{"start":11675.337,"end":11698.208,"text":"編列預算之印好不好那個外加就是這個把它拿掉好那這個第28條29條的附帶決議就修正通過來接下來處理第30條第30條所有委員的版本都跟行政院版本一致我們是不是按行政院的版本文字通過"},{"start":11699.551,"end":11723.323,"text":"好沒有問題的話就按行政院的文字通過來處理第31條那第31條呢所有委員的版本也是跟行政院的版本一致我們是不是也按行政院的提案文字通過好那就按行政院的提案通過來處理第32條"},{"start":11726.172,"end":11752.613,"text":"第32條我和羅美玲的委員也是這個法制的用字的差異性那如果每位委員沒有意見的話我們是不是也是按行政院的提案文字通過好依行政院提案通過來接下來處理第33條那第33條所有委員的版本跟行政院版本一致我們是不是按行政院的提案文字通過"},{"start":11755.557,"end":11775.596,"text":"好那我們回過頭來處理第4條第4條大概是這部條文的最重中之重的條文來回過頭第4條的新的版本有提出來了嗎好沒關係"},{"start":11776.977,"end":11803.786,"text":"我們回過頭要處理的條文有第四條第六條跟第十八條那是不是我們休息五分鐘那把這三個條文給每一位委員這三個條文的修正文字那我們今天會議就開到所有議案處理結束休息五分鐘"},{"start":11806.906,"end":11807.346,"text":"4、6、8還有附帶權益"},{"start":11824.69,"end":11828.374,"text":"我給我二姨生過了,我二姨生快點,我趕快走了。"},{"start":11860.021,"end":11866.207,"text":"因為陳超明委員有說希望再增加這個生計這兩個字齁你們在處理文字的時候要注意"},{"start":11874.83,"end":11878.439,"text":"這裏是一間酒店。"},{"start":11900.716,"end":11903.378,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":11916.592,"end":11922.102,"text":"可以學校的教學及教職對"},{"start":11928.618,"end":11934.7,"text":"那個他們所在的那個神蹟有嗎?有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,"},{"start":11963.393,"end":11968.415,"text":"現在正在寫文章文章文章文章文章文章"},{"start":11977.939,"end":11977.959,"text":"好,來,來"},{"start":12008.361,"end":12010.006,"text":"好 兄弟们"},{"start":12013.454,"end":12017.054,"text":"這座樓居然是一座大廈。這座樓居然是一座大廈。"},{"start":12038.98,"end":12041.861,"text":"我們覺得土地歸那個...那個...那個...那個...那個...那個...那個...那個..."},{"start":12070.953,"end":12089.838,"text":"這裏有很多不同的雕塑物, 例如雕塑物,雕塑物,雕塑物,雕塑物。"},{"start":12094.865,"end":12099.855,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":12109.978,"end":12120.481,"text":"他們等一下直接一分給委員你們有彩色的藝術嗎這邊可以彩色的那更好請給大家彩色的藝術藝術藝術藝術藝術藝術藝術"},{"start":12138.387,"end":12166.715,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12169.417,"end":12186.912,"text":"這裏是不是差不多了?一切公開透露好彎起來,踩著彎起來"},{"start":12189.094,"end":12199.2,"text":"來 彩色列印我們現在要一分完整的結構現在這個我們已經獲得了18條的附帶決議 獲得同意可以修改我們這邊有附帶決議18的附帶決議附帶決議"},{"start":12214.19,"end":12219.294,"text":"這間餐廳的名字叫做廚師餐廳"},{"start":12238.919,"end":12238.939,"text":"對,是。"},{"start":12268.415,"end":12271.379,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":12284.036,"end":12313.575,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12324.17,"end":12333.418,"text":"好,再看看。"},{"start":12341.188,"end":12360.807,"text":"多謝您的收看"},{"start":12370.777,"end":12379.583,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":12403.616,"end":12415.922,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。這間餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。"},{"start":12437.239,"end":12437.259,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":12473.966,"end":12473.986,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":12507.773,"end":12526.51,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12545.021,"end":12557.664,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":12576.42,"end":12577.541,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳。這裏是一間餐廳。"},{"start":12590.391,"end":12594.113,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":12604.128,"end":12627.125,"text":"你現在煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮三盤燴的蝦麵都已經熟了嗎?對,煮"},{"start":12649.686,"end":12650.186,"text":"主教主會"},{"start":12659.002,"end":12678.763,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12681.138,"end":12708.07,"text":"好那大概國發會這邊以及跟相關部會就文字剛剛還沒有處理完的文字有大概一個相關的文字都已經處理好我們是不是先宣讀就包括第4條第6條第18條的文字的修正以及相關的附帶決議我們是不是先一併宣讀市委你剛才說的有包括的嗎"},{"start":12711.712,"end":12722.379,"text":"來你們沒有資料這都還要簽名嗎都還沒有簽名好那再等一下"},{"start":12744.453,"end":12757.404,"text":"這就要修正東西第四條簽好了這些都是第四八條"},{"start":12780.394,"end":12781.075,"text":"這個剛剛處理過了,現在都處理過了"},{"start":12818.001,"end":12826.804,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":12841.886,"end":12863.763,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12887.982,"end":12888.202,"text":"感謝 感謝"},{"start":12924.718,"end":12949.974,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12969.72,"end":12969.74,"text":"對,應該是3點"},{"start":13007.336,"end":13012.638,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13025.13,"end":13052.289,"text":"OK 好了可以移一步了"},{"start":13064.451,"end":13067.014,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":13096.186,"end":13122.858,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13123.882,"end":13152.193,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13153.945,"end":13154.606,"text":"來我們繼續開會那我們是不是就剛剛的修正條文還沒處理的修正條文以及附帶決議一併宣讀來請宣讀"},{"start":13182.796,"end":13183.236,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13220.02,"end":13230.566,"text":"第四款 第四目教育部合併設立教授外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才"},{"start":13232.458,"end":13256.953,"text":"子女專班之外國語文以外之學科教師及公司立高級中等以下學校雙語教育所聘請依其專長任教語言及語言以外之藝能及活動等相關領域或科目並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓之教師其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":13261.755,"end":13287.386,"text":"委員蔡宇等所提修正動議第六條外國人取得國內外大學之碩士以上學位或教育部公告世界大學排名前1500名大學之學士以上學位者受聘僱在我國從事就業服務法第46條第一項第一款專門性或技術性工作除應取得職業資格符合一定職業方式及條件者"},{"start":13288.106,"end":13309.186,"text":"及應符合中央目的事業主管機關所定之法令規定外無需具備一定期間工作經驗委員蔡奕宇等所提第18條修正動議"},{"start":13322.13,"end":13348.636,"text":"第四項第一款外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才在我國就學取得大專校院副學士以上學位者得依下列規定折抵第一項及前項制在我國居留期間依外國專業人才取得博士學位者折抵三年碩士學位兩年學士或副學士學位者折抵一年四者不得合併折抵其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":13355.422,"end":13377.498,"text":"憲庭互待決議 第三案一 督導各校招收外國學生應審核財力及語言能力外國學生來臺就學辦法於111年12月修正明定大專校院外國學生招生檢章應詳列招生方式各學系層授課語言學生應具備之語言能力基準財力證明基準等事項"},{"start":13378.058,"end":13395.99,"text":"且大專校院辦理外國學生招生事務除宣傳推廣及協助學生辦理來台相關必要程序外不得委由校外機構、法人、團體或個人辦理教育部督導學校與外國學生招生作業使應審查學生需具備一定之語言能力及經濟能力並確認學生來台就學爭議而推動專科以上學校維護外國學生授教權益查核計畫"},{"start":13401.013,"end":13428.648,"text":"教育部自111年起辦理本查核作業自大學校研究招生程序與文件課程與教學品質學生輔導與關懷等面向查核以維護外國學生教學品質及授教權益三 跨部會查核公讀情形教育部如接獲學生涉不當公讀等勞動形式檢舉及函請學校查處並函轉勞動部依權責辦理如果到校實際查核或訪視外國學生時亦要及地方政府"},{"start":13429.848,"end":13450.933,"text":"勞動局等同行與學生及學校面談 與如此了解學生公讀情形 如學校未依相關規定辦理處理 教育部將從嚴督導 視情形糾正及從嚴扣減該校招收外國學生名額及獎補助經費四 宣導公讀規定教育部每年舉辦數場次境外學生輔導人員服務素養培訓課程及橋外生座談 持續宣導"},{"start":13457.174,"end":13465.333,"text":"境外生就學及畢業後在台公讀規定並請學校應確實關懷公讀學生提案人范瑩 蔡宜 陳昌明"},{"start":13467.162,"end":13493.228,"text":"附帶接第四案有關外國專業人才原覽及雇用法第十五條外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才規定之配偶細指外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才其本人及配偶皆為外國人者其婚姻之成立須符合社會民事法律適用法第四十六條規定申請人欲來臺依親居留者應檢附經我國駐外管處驗證之結婚證明等文件於入閣後向內政部移民署申請依親居留"},{"start":13494.226,"end":13517.002,"text":"附帶決議第五 五案為友善外國專業人才申請及使用外國專業人才延展及雇用法第28條及第29條服務除意向編列以達不排除排擠外國人民群意外請衛生福利部應製作相關英文申請表當或說明以立即申請相關服務提案人范瑩 陳昌明 蔡宜 張祺凱"},{"start":13519.562,"end":13546.228,"text":"附帶1A第6案有建議曾發生申請人取得金卡號實際入境時其才發現遭管制導致無法入境影響申請人權益及政策執行的一致性請內政部持續滾動檢討優化通報註記流程並以審查系統建立防大衛機制以加強申請人工作及入境紀錄等資料查驗正確性避免類似情形暫時發生令針對外國人免簽來台應參與臨時性活動為申請工作許可而處罰"},{"start":13547.068,"end":13573.27,"text":"請勞動部檢討相關財法是否應評估比例原則避免造成攬財負面影響文 劉美玲 蔡依 陳昌明提案宣布完畢好那我們開始來處理齁那先處理這一個第四條那第四條如果按照剛剛大家所簽的修正條文文字通過請問大家有異議"},{"start":13575.469,"end":13594.229,"text":"好沒有異議就按照修正動議通過來接下來處理第六條那第六條一樣是按照剛剛大家所簽的修正動議來通過請問大家有異議沒有異議的話就按這個修正動議通過"},{"start":13596.842,"end":13604.628,"text":"來處理第18條那18條一樣是按照剛剛的修正動議來通過請問大家有異議"},{"start":13607.309,"end":13629.34,"text":"好來這個不好意思我們文字上可不可以再做一個建議會更周延就是在剛剛那個第四項的第一款外國專業人才取得博士學位者折抵三年這個都OK然後碩士學位後面我們建議加碩士學位者折抵兩年"},{"start":13630.58,"end":13657.9,"text":"折抵二年就是漏了折折抵折抵就三個字碩士學位折折抵二年是好謝謝那接下來第二款沒有問題啦第二款好那是不是就按照修正動議然後文字再修正通過好沒有異議的話就按照再修正的文字通過好那附帶決議"},{"start":13659.676,"end":13686.859,"text":"第一案第一案有在修正嗎好第一案就按照修正通過來附帶決議第二案請問大家有異議第二案已經通過第三案有異議好沒有異議的話就按照文字通過來附帶決議第四案請問大家有異議"},{"start":13688.55,"end":13715.418,"text":"沒有異議的話就按照決議文字通過來第5案范雲委員的修正附帶決議好請問大家有異議沒有異議的話就按照附帶決議的文字通過來第6案第6案是羅美玲委員所提的附帶決議請問大家有異議好沒有異議的話也是按照附帶決議文字通過"},{"start":13718.421,"end":13733.86,"text":"OK來請宣讀協商結論外國專業人才延展及雇用法修正草案協商結論第一條照行政的提案通過第二條照行政的提案通過第三條照行政的提案通過第四條照委員林黛樺等四人修正動議通過"},{"start":13735.851,"end":13761.775,"text":"第五條 照行政提案通過第六條 照委員差異等三人提案通過第七條 照行政提案通過第八條 照行政提案通過第九條 照行政提案通過第十條 照行政提案通過增訂第十一條 照行政提案通過增訂第十二條 照行政提案通過第十三條 照行政提案通過增訂第十四條 照行政提案通過"},{"start":13767.053,"end":13793.235,"text":"第15條造行政提案通過第16條造行政提案通過第17條造行政提案通過第18條造委員差異等三人提案修正通過第19條造行政提案通過三族現行法第17條造行政提案通過第20條造行政提案通過第21條造行政提案通過第22條造委員差異等17人提案通過第23條造行政提案通過第24條造行政提案通過"},{"start":13794.056,"end":13818.293,"text":"增訂第25條造行政院提案通過第26條造行政院提案通過增訂第27條造行政院提案通過增訂第28條造行政院提案通過增訂第29條造行政院提案通過第30條造行政院提案通過第31條造行政院提案通過第32條造行政院提案通過第33條造行政院提案通過附帶決議第一案 遭案通過第二案 修正通過"},{"start":13820.319,"end":13831.554,"text":"第三案 遭案通過第四案 遭案通過第五案 遭案通過第三案 遭案通過 宣讀完畢好 請問各位同仁照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過請問有違議"},{"start":13836.087,"end":13850.373,"text":"好沒有異議的話通過討論四項外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案審查完略擬峻審查報告提報院會討論那請問需不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":13851.693,"end":13874.073,"text":"那本案因為第22條條文財政部有不同意見那請財政部在協商前可以做妥善的處理那本案就交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席說明通過支條文相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家現在散會"},{"start":13890.961,"end":13893.041,"text":"多謝您的收看。"}]}},{"id":"16794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16794","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc271ac346a99ec21cf52eba4cf25e1df47f81bba30f51cec2fd232eb3c14cd5c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第4次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續併案審查（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團、（三）委員張智倫等17人、（四）委員葉元之等21人及（五）委員羅美玲等18人分別擬具「內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團、（二）委員鄭天財Sra 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均另定期繼續審查由於今日繼續併案審查"},{"start":1928.428,"end":1955.47,"text":"現在進行討論事項審查前先請議事人員宣讀提案條文預估宣讀時間為7分鐘另未立審查如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出請儘速將書面報告送交主題台以立印發現場進行討論宣讀時如有已收到的修正動議意義並宣讀宣讀後即進行討論那我們普通介紹羅志強委員那可以確定"},{"start":1961.222,"end":1985.331,"text":"請問在場的委員就上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定我們請宣讀條文討論事項第一案內政部組織法修正草案請三月條文對照表委員鄭天才等提案第五條除第三款修正為三移民署入出國境管理事務移民防止人口販運之規劃及執行及新增第六款六"},{"start":1985.851,"end":2004.728,"text":"新住民發展署全國新住民政策之規劃推動執行及協調二外其餘同線行條文台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條除第三款修正為三移民署入出國境管理移民事務防止人口販運之規劃及執行及新增第四款四新住民發展署"},{"start":2005.268,"end":2023.15,"text":"新住民權益保障、教育、就業、語言訓練、文化適應支持之規劃與執行並將現行條文之第四款及第五款、第一至第五款及第六款外其餘同現行條文委員張志倫等提案第五條第三款同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條第三款"},{"start":2023.75,"end":2052.382,"text":"及第六款同委員鄭天才等提案第五條第六款外其餘同現行條文委員葉元之等提案第五條同委員鄭天才等提案委員羅明才等提案第五條除第三款修正為三移民署入出國境管理移民與防治人口販運之規劃及執行及新增第六款六新住民發展署新住民事務與政策之規劃推動管理協調及督導外其餘同現行條文"},{"start":2053.863,"end":2070.983,"text":"討論事項第二案 請參與台灣對照表 台灣民眾黨黨團提案 名稱內政部新住民發展署組織法委員鄭定才等提案 委員國民黨黨團提案 委員張志倫等提案 委員葉宜源之等提案及委員羅媚玲等提案 名稱均同 台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":2072.665,"end":2098.387,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一條內政部為辦理新住民之權益保障健全社會發展推廣多元文化並減少歧視與偏見特設新住民發展署以下簡稱本署委員鄭天才等提案第一條內政部為辦理新住民之權益保障尊重多元文化健全社會發展特設新住民發展署以下簡稱本署國民黨黨團提案第一條"},{"start":2099.148,"end":2111.757,"text":"內政部為統籌規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進新住民就學就業賠利關懷協助及多元服務之相關事宜特設新住民發展署刮虎以下簡稱本署"},{"start":2113.376,"end":2130.61,"text":"委員張志倫等提案第一條內政部為保障新住民基本權益健全社會發展推廣多元文化並減少歧視及偏見特設新住民發展署以下簡稱本署委員葉元芝等提案及委員羅美玲等提案第一條均同國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":2132.492,"end":2152.692,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條本署長禮下列事項一新住民政策法制及人力之整合規劃落實與監督二新住民基本法制規劃落實及講補助事項三新住民國家考試之規劃執行督導及講助四新住民語言發展之規劃執行及督導"},{"start":2154.554,"end":2170.13,"text":"五 新住民通益制度之規劃執行及督導六 新住民學術人才儲備之規劃執行及督導七 新住民各國文化經濟交流發展之規劃執行及督導八 新住民廣播電視之規劃培植輔導及發展"},{"start":2172.873,"end":2196.561,"text":"九 新住民輔導就業之規劃執行協調及督導十 新住民參與社會保險之推動聯繫及協調事項十一 弱勢新住民協助政策之規劃執行及獎勵與補助十二 其他有關新移民事項委員鄭天才等提案第二條本署掌理下列事項第一款至第二款同台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":2197.921,"end":2223.559,"text":"第二條第一款至第二款第三款至第九款分別同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條第四款至第十款第十款同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條第十二款國民黨黨團提案第二條本署長禮下列事項依新住民政策制度法規之綜合規劃協調及推動第二款至第三款同台灣民眾黨黨團第二條第二款至第三款"},{"start":2224.719,"end":2244.398,"text":"四 新住民語言發展教育協助之規劃執行及督導第五款至第八款同台灣民眾黨黨團第二條第五款至第八款九 新住民就業服務之規劃執行協調及督導十 新住民社會福利之推動執行及協調事項十一 新住民健康"},{"start":2244.898,"end":2260.866,"text":"促進制規劃協調及推動 十二新住民公共參與法律諮詢制規劃協調及推動 十三其他有關新住民事項委員張志倫等提案第二條本署長禮下列事項第一款至第五款同台灣民眾黨黨團第二條"},{"start":2262.447,"end":2277.365,"text":"第一款至第五款六 新住民各領域學術人才儲備之規劃執行及督導七 新住民文化發展化族群與國際交流發展之規劃執行及督導第八款 同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條第八款"},{"start":2278.305,"end":2302.562,"text":"9.新住民健康促進社會參與社會福利工作權保障就業服務及法律服務之規劃執行協調及督導第十款至第十一款同台灣民眾黨黨團第二條第十款至第十一款12.新住民人權保障及歧視申訴之規劃協調及推動13.其他有關新住民事項委員岳岩之等提案第二條同國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":2303.582,"end":2322.359,"text":"委員羅美玲等提案第二條本署章裡下列事項一 新住民政策制度法規之規劃原理推動及落實二 新住民權益保障之規劃原理推動及落實三 新住民語言發展教育協助之規劃執行及督導第四款至第五款"},{"start":2322.921,"end":2344.313,"text":"分別同臺灣民眾黨黨團第二條第五款至第五款六 新住民文化交流經濟交流之規劃執行及督導七 新住民媒體之規劃執行輔導及發展八 新住民就業服務之規劃執行協調及督導九 新住民社會福利之規劃推動協調及落實十 新住民健康促進之規劃推動協調及落實"},{"start":2347.215,"end":2367.31,"text":"11.其他有關新註明事項,台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條,本署製署長一人,職務列檢任第十三職等,副署長二人,職務列檢任第十二職等,委員鄭正才等提案,國民黨黨團提案,委員張志倫等提案,委員粵葉雲芝等提案,及委員羅梅林等提案第三條,均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案。"},{"start":2369.246,"end":2384.481,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第四條本署至主任秘書職務列檢任第十一職等委員鄭天才等提案國民黨黨團提案委員張志倫等提案委員葉元之等提案及委員羅美銘等提案第四條均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":2386.283,"end":2407.192,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條,本屬未應業務需要,得報請行政院核准,派員駐境外辦事,並依駐外機構組織通則規定辦理。委員鄭天才等提案,國民黨黨團提案,委員張志倫等提案,委員葉元芝等提案,及委員羅美玲等提案第五條,均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案。"},{"start":2409.762,"end":2434.231,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條本屬各職稱之官等職等及員而另以編制表定之委員鄭天才等提案第六條本屬各職稱之官等職等及員而另以編制表定之前上人員檢任、介任委任各官等人員應優先經用具有新住民身份者國民黨黨團提案委員張志倫等提案委員葉元智等提案及委員羅美玲等提案第六條均同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":2436.452,"end":2450.518,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條本法施行日期由行政院以命令定之委員鄭天才等提案國民黨黨團提案委員張志倫等提案委員葉元智等提案及委員羅美玲等提案第七條均同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案繼續先讀首等動議部分"},{"start":2459.561,"end":2475.118,"text":"討論提案第一案修正動議共一件修正動議一對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條增訂第二項為前項第四款於本條文修正公佈後三個月施行"},{"start":2477.581,"end":2493.786,"text":"討論事項第二案修正動議共三件修正動議一對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條增訂第二項為前項人員檢認兼任委任各官等人員具新住民身份者均不"},{"start":2494.406,"end":2520.412,"text":"的低於百分之三十增訂第三項為本條鎖定新住民身份者之禁用比例因為本法通過五年內四新住民特考及個並授訊完成人員達一千人時調整禁用比例增訂第四項為本法鎖定禁用新住民比例現有員的未拿比例者是非新住民人員出去後再行進"},{"start":2522.096,"end":2546.056,"text":"用補足 提案人 麥玉珍 林曙仁 高清素美 吳宗憲修正動議二對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條修正為本法自公佈後三個月施行提案人 黃國昌 麥玉珍 羅志強 黃王威宣讀完畢"},{"start":2551.836,"end":2554.858,"text":"好 條文集修正動議經已宣讀完畢那現在進行討論我們現在進行討論第一案現在有說到修正動議那我們也先一併宣讀"},{"start":2571.516,"end":2596.389,"text":"傳譯動議三對照台灣民眾黨黨團第一條修正為內政部為統籌規劃研究諮詢協調推動及促進新住民就學就業賠利關懷協助及多元服務保障其權利健全社會發展推廣多元文化並減少歧視與偏見特設新住民發展署以下簡稱本署"},{"start":2598.1,"end":2604.926,"text":"第二條修正為滿署掌理下列事項一統籌新住民相關政策制度法規與"},{"start":2606.59,"end":2628.176,"text":"行政執掌之整體規劃嚴密協調執行與督導二 辦理新住民基本法各項政策措施之規劃協調推動監督及相關獎勵與補助機制三 推動新住民人權保障政策特別針對婦女兒少單親身心障礙及中低收入戶等"},{"start":2629.536,"end":2645.507,"text":"弱勢族群提供協助與保護措施4推動新住民參與國家考試制度及其專屬類科之設置與發展並提供必要之輔導與資源協助5推動新住民母語華語及多"},{"start":2646.528,"end":2659.166,"text":"語言教育政策包括語言能力檢定教材發展及教學師資培育六建制新住民口譯與筆譯服務制度提升各機關跨語言"},{"start":2660.54,"end":2677.531,"text":"服务能力并推动相关人力培训与认证制度7培育新住民学术教育社工医疗媒体其他专业人才并建立人才资料库与储备机制8推广新住民"},{"start":2678.331,"end":2687.721,"text":"原屬果汁文化、宗教藝術、飲食及民間傳統促進國際文化理解與在地融合9."},{"start":2687.721,"end":2696.071,"text":"輔助新著名媒體、廣播電視與數位平台內容發展協助其參與公共傳播與文化建設"},{"start":2697.512,"end":2719.947,"text":"推動新住民就業職能訓練創業輔導及勞動權利保障措施建立多元經濟參與平台十一協助新住民參與全民健康保險長照服務心理健康與預防醫學健康促進政策十二推動新住民社會福利社區參與家庭支持"},{"start":2721.028,"end":2738.829,"text":"與子女教養服務並加強地方政府橫向協調與獎勵獎補助其他涉及新住民資發展權力保障及多元文化交流外交合作等事項提案人蔓玉珍、羅志強、吳宗憲"},{"start":2745.61,"end":2773.334,"text":"新增修正動議第四案有關新住民有關內政部新住民發展署主持法第二條對照國民黨團底案第二條第九款修正為新住民工作權保障及就業服務之規劃執行協調及督導提案人黃榮威、羅志強、黃國昌、林倩琦宣讀完畢"},{"start":2777.315,"end":2804.202,"text":"好那我們現在進行討論先討論事項第一案繼續並案審查內政部組織法第五條條文修正草案請問一下要不要進行大體討論不用好那我們就直接進入逐條審查那請教各位上個禮拜不是都有講好OK"},{"start":2806.129,"end":2831.196,"text":"這樣只有一條就麻煩各位看一下排序一第五條的部分有委員鄭天才還有民眾黨團提案以及張志文葉元之羅美玲等人提案另外還有麥玉珍等人所提的修正動議請問各位委員就條文的部分有沒有要補充那個先請提案人有沒有要做提案說明"},{"start":2833.888,"end":2857.913,"text":"有沒有 沒有齁 恩賣委員有修正動物 不用提案說明齁好 那沒問題齁 那那如果都沒有意見的話 機關有沒有要補充請問一下機關 也沒有齁 好好 那我們就處理修正動物有啦 不是啦 主席"},{"start":2860.595,"end":2886.568,"text":"那是不是我們這個部分就依照 主席來 副理事長各位委員有關於討論四項立案的修正動議一就是麥委員提案的這個部分內政部執法的第五條最後一項有要增列一個前項第四款於本條文修正公佈後三個月"},{"start":2888.263,"end":2896.556,"text":"施行那這個部分我跟各位報告一下就是以目前新設的組織的施行日期"},{"start":2898.482,"end":2920.088,"text":"原則上都是因為考量整個組織的籌備的作業包括經費籌措等等上次大概也有稍微有討論原則上都是讓行政機關在訂定施行的日期有少數的例外 少數的例外譬如說"},{"start":2921.614,"end":2935.524,"text":"行政院的組織改造那個大規模的組織改造他有特定施行的日期是在101年的1月1號這個特例的部分是比較少數的那如果說讓機關籌備可以更順暢一點然後"},{"start":2942.128,"end":2963.057,"text":"就是這個新的組織上路以後能夠馬上能夠發揮比較好的功能那我們是會建議說是不是照一般的原則來處理以上黃委員謝謝主席因為剛剛突然本來條文要開始從名稱開始進行"},{"start":2968.359,"end":2993.436,"text":"我們現在立案只有一條而已是是是是那第二個事情是我要說明的事情是說上一次在質詢的時候我們已經講得非常的清楚了行住民基本法通過是去年7月16號不是今年3月是去年7月16號我也直接問了內政部做了什麼準備"},{"start":2995.121,"end":3016.161,"text":"內政部說他們準備很積極非常的積極一個月開一次會搞到現在快一年了快一年了施行日期給行政機關定下一個問題是什麼時候才會正式的上路"},{"start":3017.722,"end":3046.252,"text":"按照他們這樣子拖延的態度從過去的表現沒有辦法讓大家有信心拖了一年這不是剛開始才成立的就拖了一年的法案內政部也說他們準備得很積極如果搞一個署,搞了一年再加三個月還搞不出來那這個行政效率也低落得太嚴重了吧"},{"start":3047.861,"end":3058.697,"text":"所以就這個修正動議我們是配合著另外一條施行的日期三度通過以後就給你們三個月等得夠久了好 謝謝喔 那因為九關這個"},{"start":3064.393,"end":3083.328,"text":"因為我就直接在這邊我自己表示意見因為我也是那個修正動議的那個提案人之一我想說因為之前在NC組織法的時候我們也是蠻善意的讓行政機關來定結果後來反而被拿這個日期的部分來搞我們立法院所以我想說"},{"start":3085.109,"end":3101.455,"text":"既然這個案子已經很久以前就提出來了我想行政機關應該都準備的蠻齊全的所以我剛剛才會做那個提案的連署那這是我的意見請問一下各位委員還有沒有意見要提出來的好"},{"start":3102.577,"end":3120.61,"text":"那因為我提案人之一因為這個部分就是在我們相關的這個詢問的時候那時候內政部也是跟我們說是今年下半年就可以上路所以我覺得這個三個月並沒有並沒有強人所難啦"},{"start":3121.991,"end":3140.499,"text":"因為那些詢問的時候大家會特別問嘛說這個今年下半年是可以上路而且呢那個明年就是等於說今年也會編一些預算嘛然後明年的預算再編足所以這個條文的這個修正動力基本上我不認為有至愛難行之處跟大家報告好 謝謝那請問各位委員還有沒有其他的意見"},{"start":3151.079,"end":3176.012,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員那我想上一次在質詢的時候我這邊也有報告說我們目前作為進度大概就是四個組十二課那去年到現在開了七次會議那我想最重要的重點是說第一個新機關的成立之後其實還有就是組織法一旦制定公佈我在掛牌正式運作之前還有幾件事情要做包括那個聽社的租賃修繕"},{"start":3176.952,"end":3201.618,"text":"然後還有辦公資訊設備因為這個都在組織法之前沒有組織法適應之後我才能依照預算的採購來辦理一些做一些建置還有資訊系統那及相關的人員移播那也特別謝謝各位委員談到說三個月的部分那我想在這個因為會涉及到採購招標還是要有一些時程是不是可以維持現在的版本還是說有本法再一次公佈事情"},{"start":3202.989,"end":3229.72,"text":"本法制公佈的事情或者三個月這個部分其實是第一個是在以往的立法體力比較少見到啦那我這邊是不是可不可以與您還是請各位委員幫我們考量一下第一個我們如果建制時程的話我這邊包括移民署的所有的作業還有人員移撥這三個月是不可能做完的啦以上好那請問還有哪位委員有要補充好那如果這樣的話來大立見怎麼樣"},{"start":3232.867,"end":3255.972,"text":"第五條的部分我們予以保留本案主條已經處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決本案需交由黨團協商院會討論時 由吳昭吉委員中線出席說明條式引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員處理"},{"start":3259.185,"end":3286.499,"text":"接著我們進行討論事項第二案繼續並案審查內政部新住民發展署組織法草案請問各位本案需不需要進行大體討論不用那我們就直接進入主條我們現在先審查名稱部分因為所有提案人的名稱都一樣我們是不是就照提案通過各個版本都一樣"},{"start":3288.113,"end":3303.861,"text":"請問有沒有不同意見好那就照提案通過好那我們去現在繼續審查排序一第一條有民眾黨團提案鄭天才等二十一人提案國民黨團提案及張志倫"},{"start":3305.362,"end":3326.495,"text":"及葉元之及羅美玲等人提案還有麥玉珍所提的修正動議請問各位委員有沒有要補充說明或提案人有沒有要提案說明沒有沒有的話那有沒有"},{"start":3328.072,"end":3356.255,"text":"沒有好來那個我請教一下因為這次行政機關並沒有提出版本那請問一下行政機關有沒有要提供意見第一條的部分好謝謝主席那我想第一條的部分當然是保留是不是保障多元文化精神及新住民基本權利等文字那其他的部分是不是則以統籌規劃及辦理有關新住民業務新住民事務就可以含瓜那至於各版本的意見我們沒有意見"},{"start":3363.833,"end":3391.683,"text":"黃委員那個說明一下現在不同的版本裡面其實歸納起來就兩個版本一個是比較抽象的辦理新住民權益保障健全社會發展推廣多元文化減少歧視與偏見這是第一種第二種是統籌規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進新住民就業就學培力關懷協助多元服務相關事宜剛內政部的意見是似乎這兩個版本"},{"start":3392.85,"end":3421.642,"text":"你們都各取一個部分出來那如果是這樣的話你要不要具體把你們的修正動議拿出來啊有沒有準備沒有準備不是啊 你這樣嘴巴講一講是要你出一隻嘴然後立委幫你統合版本是這樣嗎沒有 剛剛主席是說我們這邊有沒有什麼看法是啊這邊就只是要來做說明而已所以你的看法就這樣沒有具體的修正建議沒有嗎"},{"start":3423.254,"end":3442.174,"text":"那我想這還是讓各位委員來好 沒有關係啦既然內政部他自己沒有具體文字上面的堅持嘛連基本的修正建議條文都沒準備嘛我很少看到行政機關擺爛到這種程度啊我老實講啦我很少看到行政機關擺爛到這種程度啊"},{"start":3443.342,"end":3467.057,"text":"我建議是不是就依照台灣民眾黨黨團提案跟張志榮委員等17人提案通過看看其他委員有沒有高見那如果中國國民黨認為要用中國國民黨黨團提案通過我們這裡也沒有意見因為有修正動議啦我們當然是優先先從修正動議開始討論啦好 那請問其他委員有沒有意見好 曾委員"},{"start":3470.902,"end":3487.465,"text":"我想我們就是就現在的提案文字大家來討論至於行政機關有沒有意見你說行政機關沒有修法意見你就說人家擺爛這個也真的是扣帽子"},{"start":3488.939,"end":3502.191,"text":"我認為說這個如果說大家都對這個到底他是要抽象式的規範還是要具體的這個各個事項的的條列我覺得大家如果有意見我建議這條保留"},{"start":3505.848,"end":3534.017,"text":"好那這個是不是我們就第一條的部分我們就予以保留看大家的意思怎麼樣好那第一條部分予以保留好那我們現在審查排序第二條第二條的部分有臺灣民眾黨提案國民黨黨團提案另外還有鄭天才張志倫葉元之羅美玲等人的提案還有麥玉珍及王宏威等人的修正動議提議請問一下各位有沒有要做提案說明"},{"start":3538.024,"end":3550.02,"text":"好 謝謝主席針對這個新住民發展組織法的第二條我簡單說明一下我的版本的部分我想我跟大家比較"},{"start":3551.361,"end":3569.79,"text":"比較不一樣的地方大概就是第二條第一項的第三款那有很多委員是把這個新住民國家考試之規劃執行督導及講助呢放在這個第二條的這個第三款第二條第一項的第三款裡面可是我跟鄭天才委員並沒有把這個納入"},{"start":3570.971,"end":3596.53,"text":"因為按照這個新住民基本法我們所謂新住民的定義它是怎麼定義呢?它說經許可在台灣地區居留依親居留長期居留或永居住外國人無國籍人民大陸地區人民香港或澳門的居民即配偶為居住台灣地區設有戶籍國民其實新住民它的定義是有所謂的已涉及跟未涉及"},{"start":3597.23,"end":3614.604,"text":"那未涉及的部分如何去參加國家考試新住民他的範圍涵蓋是非常的廣所以這個部分呢因為他有所謂的涉及跟未涉及的部分所以我們第一這部分我們就沒有納入那再來還有國家考試呢他的權責是在考"},{"start":3615.945,"end":3629.379,"text":"並不是一個小小的這個三級機關一個署可以來辦理的所以這個部分跟憲法也不符所以這部分我就說明一下再來還有一點"},{"start":3630.16,"end":3643.226,"text":"也就是說在這個我的版本本學的版本的第七款的部分新住民媒體之規劃執行輔導及發展我看其他的版本是用廣播跟電視廣播跟電視那我用媒體它的媒體的這個範圍會更廣"},{"start":3650.069,"end":3674.957,"text":"那再來還有就是我的第九款新住民社會福利這規劃推動協調及落實我用社會福利而不是我看到好像民眾黨的版本是用這個社會保險因為社會保險它是屬於社會福利的一部分所以用社會福利它的範圍也比較廣那大概這幾點是要我是要說明的部分好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席好 那請問各位還有沒有"},{"start":3681.388,"end":3707.287,"text":"脈委員先舉手讓脈委員先講完然後再往委員脈委員好所以主席在第二條這邊的話因為我有全部從第一條到第13條都有修正要跟大家說明一下因為第一條的話就是我們為了新住民相關的政策這裡的話都有說明的就是制度還有法規還有"},{"start":3708.408,"end":3711.629,"text":"行政的執掌的整體的規劃研議協調等等所以在第二條我們就依據我們新住民基本法裡面各項的推動還有協調督導還有獎勵都有在這個機制裡面所以第三條因為我們是要"},{"start":3728.496,"end":3740.34,"text":"這個是本署是掌理這些的工作所以我們也是很重視這一塊所以我們就第三條我就推動新住民人權保障的政策特別就是說針對婦女兒少單親或者"},{"start":3743.661,"end":3763.277,"text":"身心障礙中低收這個補助來去協助的保護的措施第四條呢我會去修正的就是為什麼說新住民以國家考試制度以其專屬類科制設置與發展並提供要"},{"start":3763.977,"end":3766.339,"text":"輔導還有資源協助這個是我說的很明確是說我們不是在這個法裡面來去讓他們考是我們這個署是要專門就是要去輔導來協助要怎麼樣讓他們在去考試的時候有一些資源的協助或者輔導"},{"start":3786.556,"end":3789.997,"text":"是這樣子的目的在我們還沒有修正的醫生一樣的不是針對是說我們有身份證沒身份證都可以去考當然是這個考試在考試院的時候規定不是在我們這邊去認定身份來去考試所以這個我是講得很清楚了在推動母語的部分華語或者多國語言我們是我們拿語的雙向的就是說我們新住民要學我們的華語"},{"start":3816.465,"end":3819.987,"text":"或者新住民要來去教母語這樣子的兩邊我們都要有這樣子包含語言的鑑定還有教材的部分讓我們要把小孩再去學不同的語言他也覺得這個老師是合格又有這樣子的證書這樣對我們要讓小孩子去學母語的話更有幫助還有加上我們自己要去學母語 學華語也有"},{"start":3842.145,"end":3860.697,"text":"更大的幫助這個部分還有第六呢我們要建設一個口譯或者筆譯這樣的服務制度針對就是現在我們的各個機關或者移民署或者是警政署還有就是法院我們的制度都沒有連怎麼樣去給費用有就是很多項都不一樣"},{"start":3866.761,"end":3871.503,"text":"所以我們希望是在這邊的話我們的發展署因為為了要發展就是讓新住民更專業也制度也更完善還有第七的話我們希望說培育學術教育發行這一些的建立的資料庫怎麼樣去研究更好要儲備更多的人才我們要讓大家學以致用還有第八呢我們要推動就是"},{"start":3893.812,"end":3917.693,"text":"原國就是我們大家都叫母國或者我們本國所以我們就原屬國的文化宗教這些希望做一個交流還有就是促進我們的國際對我們的新住民的了解像我們12月18號雖然沒有放假但是全國移民署的要求各地方都要辦這樣子的節日所以我們也希望說這個做一個融合"},{"start":3919.875,"end":3924.741,"text":"第九的話 因為我們要有媒體 我們也認同說不能說只有廣播電視 我們要加入媒體這個部分我們也是希望說有一個平台 讓大家就是在即時就會收到不一樣的訊息也栽培我們的新住民新二代 成為這樣子的一個媒體"},{"start":3941.559,"end":3945.26,"text":"或者供電視這樣子的一個廣播的主持人或者讓他們可以去發揮等等所以第十的話推動新住民就業這個部分職能訓練或者創業都要有因為現在在台灣創業的人也很多所以我們希望說不管就業創業多平台還有關於就是多元的經濟參與的平台也共同在納入在這個裡面"},{"start":3968.969,"end":3990.998,"text":"所以第十一有希望說我們參與我們的社會全民的健保保險這個社會保險它包含的是長照服務心理監視還有預防醫療等等的健康的促進的政策所以我們就把兩個分開新住民社會福利跟社會保險是兩個"},{"start":3992.278,"end":4014.187,"text":"不同的面向還有服務更明確讓他就是參與社區的參與家庭的照顧或者家庭的子女的養育教育並加強就是在地方跟中央還有社區長官學民這樣子的社區的政府橫向的協調以獎勵還有補助所以23就是相關我們沒有提到的這一些"},{"start":4021.03,"end":4037.756,"text":"有很多大家有需要的時候我們就可以在13項就額外的去協助這個就是我在提的修正綜藝的比較明確掌握的職長的工作範圍 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝 那現在我們請王委員"},{"start":4042.039,"end":4045.801,"text":"好謝謝主席那我這邊的修正動議主要是針對國民黨團的提案的條文的第二條第九款有關於新住民的這個工作權保障要把它入法"},{"start":4060.09,"end":4086.08,"text":"因為大家都知道其實雖然我們對於新住民的就業的權益工作的保障比過去事實上是有改進很多但是不可諱言的在我們很多的一般的僱主還有一些用人的單位它對於這個外籍它還是存在一些並沒有達到一個多元尊重的一個原則"},{"start":4087.02,"end":4093.207,"text":"所以我們很多新住民他還是會因為比如他的身份他的語言的能力口音等等去面臨各項的困擾甚至有些只要看到他的身份證他的出生地就被婉拒了"},{"start":4103.94,"end":4127.578,"text":"那像这部分事实上都没有充分的去保障我们新著名的他的工作的权利那所以我们觉得在这次修法的过程里面应该要去比照原民会组织法第二条第一项第四款的内容那么这个原民会呢他们就是把工作权的保障"},{"start":4128.398,"end":4143.422,"text":"納入這個法條裡面所以呢在這個修正動議裡面也把工作權的保障納入我們新住民發展署的組織法裡面在這個部分呢我們特別予以強調跟加強以上謝謝好謝謝那請問各位還有沒有要補充的好陳委員"},{"start":4151.021,"end":4163.761,"text":"有關這一條,我這個個人特別有在尋答的時候也特別談到了有關於這個新住民國家考試是規劃執行督導及講助它是屬於這個考試權的範圍"},{"start":4165.796,"end":4182.008,"text":"你把他列入在這個內政部新住民發展署的組織在組織法裡面把這個屬於考試權的部分,納入到這個條文裡面是非常不妥尤其是他這裡面,他不只是規劃,他還包括執行"},{"start":4183.903,"end":4204.222,"text":"考試的執行這個一定是考試院來辦理這不可能是由內政部有任何一個行政單位來辦理所以我個人對這第二條第三款的部分個人是反對我認為反對把這一條列入我是建議把這一款刪除"},{"start":4205.424,"end":4226.423,"text":"那這個另外這個有關這個廣播電有關這個第八款齁這個新住民廣播電視規劃齁我認為說只有廣播電視也確實是是比較狹窄啦齁因為現在的媒體現在各式各樣的媒體齁廣播電視尤其是廣播它已經也不是已經已經不屬於主流"},{"start":4227.784,"end":4255.146,"text":"不算是在過去那麼強勢的媒體工具所以你把廣播跟電視單獨列出來我覺得這個是已經有點比較過時的想法所以我是比較贊同羅美林委員的提案裡面把它改成媒體的部分以上好 那保留 那那個王委員你剛剛說修正動議的部分怎麼樣是你要保留還是說到協商再提"},{"start":4265.959,"end":4291.929,"text":"協商再提也可以那就協商的時候再提修正東西好的好的那第二條的部分我們就予以保留那我們現在審查排序三第三條部分有民眾黨黨團及國民黨黨團都有提案另外有鄭天才張志倫葉元之羅美玲等人有各自有提案那請問就第三條的部分各位有無意見要補充"},{"start":4295.478,"end":4310.396,"text":"院部門有沒有要補充好 謝謝主席第三條的部分我這邊簡單說明一下那這一次的修正版本裡面包括副署長兩人的部分那依照那個中央行政機關組織法規定的話三級機關是至多副首長三人"},{"start":4310.896,"end":4327.362,"text":"那我們金盤點我們移民未來新住民發展署的業務其實我們目前規劃4組12棵編織員員是100人如果依照這個編織員額跟業務值漲所以我們建議副署長1人就足以夠使用這個在人員的編織跟配屬上會比較適當好 以上"},{"start":4329.421,"end":4358.154,"text":"因為各個委員的版本都一樣耶那這個我們要大家的意見怎麼樣因為我剛剛看了一下從黨團提案到民進黨的委員或國民黨的委員其實提案的內容都一樣那我們這個是不是要依照第三條要照各提案通過還是各位要求保留了保留了因為新增機關他們有認為說你要不要把他那個沒有他對但是"},{"start":4360.763,"end":4361.124,"text":"主張保留"},{"start":4378.362,"end":4399.254,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝王委員我想跟大家報告一下因為編織員額的話我們未來是移撥50人由移民署移撥至新住民發展署那另外還要新增50人所以這100個人來講的話如果以內政部相關的一個體力來講的話100員額的署大概都是設置副署長一人我想以這個方式譬如說我們國家公務員署就是副署長一人編織員也是差不多這個規模"},{"start":4403.154,"end":4408.558,"text":"如果可以增加我倒是希望可以增加員額而不是增加主管這樣我們來推展新住民業務應該會更順利"},{"start":4412.883,"end":4438.66,"text":"麥委員因為我們不是說一個屬五的 是全國的 這個我們是可以說我們民眾黨 國民黨 民進黨 還有就是農委員都是一樣就是兩人啦 不能說我們內政部沒有提任何的版本就否決大家都認同的 就一個人否決其他的"},{"start":4439.78,"end":4461.449,"text":"所以你們提案你們都不認同是不是我們提案啊你們有啊我們沒有提案你沒有提案因為我看到你們主席抱歉我倒覺得行政部門你在分官設置裡面它有一定的一個條件行政機關它其實也有講這個變成說大家認為該兩個"},{"start":4464.17,"end":4484.124,"text":"你說這樣子對新住民比較好的照顧,那你乾脆給他三個、四個,那也不太對。就是說你真正有需要跟其他的部門來做一個比較的話,你編制員額該多少,那就應該是副署長是幾位。啊你現在大家機關都一個,只有這裡放兩個,就好奇怪。"},{"start":4484.944,"end":4512.739,"text":"也不會因為說我多一個就好像宣誓對新住民是更好的一個照顧倒也不是啦你說我沒給你捨幾棵你捨一捨就完了也不知道為社而設也不曉得在幹什麼倒會認為啦行政部門剛剛的一個解釋我認為是合理的啦但是呢因為涉及到其他委員的提案有他不同的看法啦我們也多尊重啦不如就保留在協商的時候大家再討論一下啦好不好"},{"start":4515.134,"end":4526.148,"text":"主席 主席在這因為我們都尊重大家的意見跟因為他剛才政治有所講的 也就是說18個來賓有一個署長 跟因為我覺得說今天的所討論的版本我們常常都"},{"start":4533.638,"end":4543.24,"text":"走到常務任用,在這裏,我們是13支電的嘛在這個過程,我覺得你要照顧新住民的地方什麼事情我認為,加一條剛才總會想,我們的召委所說的說你如果要照顧好,你就在書店多寫,照顧越好還有每一個單位,書店都要寫"},{"start":4563.117,"end":4565.538,"text":"今天我們討論的是 要如何讓新住民所來的照顧更好跟這個有的提倆的 我的意見是覺得這個還可以因為我覺得大家來探討 來想看什麼方法問一下 問一下的想法 不要去磨砂"},{"start":4587.285,"end":4590.669,"text":"認真打拚的人不是我們不支持我們自己的條款因為每一個有每一個的想法啦不是說我們站出來我們就說以後也可以參選一個啦以上"},{"start":4602.362,"end":4630.395,"text":"抱歉喔 遭到燒傷 聽不清 該請坐謝謝 各位那這樣喔就是因為既然有其他條保留嘛就算我們這個通過其實到協商也可以再拿出來討論那沒有通過要保留其實都一樣因為我們其他條已經保留就算這一條我們今天答沒意見通過你協商也是會拿出來討論其實我覺得意義都一樣啦不管保留或是直接通過其實做法都是一樣的我不知道各位有沒有"},{"start":4631.115,"end":4658.578,"text":"其他那如果這樣的話麥委員那個剛王宏威委員有說同意保留那我不知道麥委員的意見怎麼樣好那就我們想說大家就共事就是本條予以保留好謝謝那我們現在審查排序第四條有民眾黨黨團提案國民黨黨團提案還有鄭天才張志倫葉圓之羅美齡等四人各自有提案那請問就第四條的部分各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":4660.305,"end":4678.472,"text":"沒有好那如果沒有的話我們就按照各提案通過好那第五條第五條部分有台灣民眾黨及國民黨黨團各自有提案另外有委員鄭天才張志榮葉元之羅美玲等四人各自有提案那請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":4679.79,"end":4706.131,"text":"好那沒有的話我們就依照各提案通過那現在我們審查第六條第六條有台灣民眾黨黨團提案國民黨黨團提案另外有委員鄭天才張志倫葉元之羅美玲等四人各自有提案呃之外還有麥玉珍委員所提的修正動議請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有的話那我們是不是就依照修正動議"},{"start":4713.154,"end":4733.184,"text":"謝謝主席我想第六條裡面有關那個人員的官職等編制表定制那其中曾建財委員有談到前向人員檢任、見任、委任各官等應該要優先禁用新住民那第一個就是說因為這個建議裡面國家考試的升遷並沒有去區隔說以新住民身份來去做所謂給予其"},{"start":4735.916,"end":4761.599,"text":"特殊之保障那因為新住民的話如果已經融入我國社會就是我們中華民國的國民那所以這個地方是建議不以優先經用或公務人員去具新住民的身份的比例那至於其他的內容部分都還尚符合相關的立法體例副理事長召委 各位委員那我們是覺得這一條問題會比較大一點我們有義務要提出來做提醒"},{"start":4762.728,"end":4778.596,"text":"那如果看到這個討論事項二的修正動議一第二項講到前項人員檢任、兼任委任、各官等人員,據新住民身份者均不得低於百分之三十"},{"start":4780.714,"end":4803.655,"text":"那跟後續的相關的這個條款那有一個比較嚴重的問題那就是剛剛吳次郎其實已經講了就是如果是我國的國民的身份以後其實在憲法上應該被同等的對待那如果沒有同等對待其實這個疑慮會比較大一點那目前我們我們這個"},{"start":4807.806,"end":4809.693,"text":"我們國家的各個這個部會的組織法裡面"},{"start":4812.031,"end":4838.7,"text":"有這樣的規定的有定有這個比例的大概只有原民會的組織法第六條他有定原住民比例連客委會都沒有定比例那原民會這個他是源自憲法徵修條文的第十條第十二款他是要求要保障原住民的他的相關的權益所以他是有憲法層次的依據的所以對原住民有"},{"start":4839.64,"end":4860.527,"text":"特別的這樣的規範那其他的族群事實上目前是都沒有這樣的規範那如果我們新住民朋友成為我們的國民之後那當然原則上他是要被同等對待的那這個是一個比較嚴肅的問題然後在技術上也會有比較大的問題"},{"start":4868.277,"end":4891.659,"text":"那因為要參加國家考試 你可能就要有中華民國國籍那現在的新住民的定義 其實它的類別有很多種那不一定他都會是具有中華民國國籍那你要當一個公務員 你除了符合考試法 國籍法 任用法等等還有其他相關法規的規定 它是一個比較複雜的議題"},{"start":4894.622,"end":4906.765,"text":"如果這樣訂,其實也會有一些誤解可能新住民朋友,你法上面就訂說我可以啊,那現在我如果不行這其實會有一些紛擾然後第三個,就是"},{"start":4908.1,"end":4924.116,"text":"我們務實一點來看像其他原住民因為他是憲法上的保障所以他有原住民特考所以他的來源是一個比較可以掌握的狀態那新住民我們剛才講的"},{"start":4925.077,"end":4940.589,"text":"他考試法有考試法的規定有國際法的規定其實有很多的相關法令的限制在那如果這個條文要這樣過那在新自民組織法上路的時候能不能找到具有這樣資格的人"},{"start":4942.338,"end":4960.885,"text":"來執行這個我們要幫助新住民朋友的這個工作這個我們會認為是比較嚴肅的課題所以我們會比較具體建議說這個是不是照一般的體力那新增的這部分是不是可以刪除以上請各委員參考麥委員先舉手 麥委員待會再審委員"},{"start":4968.272,"end":4995.213,"text":"好謝謝我們是要有這個部分就是因為我們現在要提的是新住民發展署對不對這個發展署我們就是大家都說自己照顧自己自己服務自己落地服務在地服務對不對這個就是我們想要的是說我們要鼓勵大家來去做這件事情又要設一年多少錢來去栽培"},{"start":4997.074,"end":5001.656,"text":"但是沒有一個地方讓大家發揮這個不是講了跟做就不一樣嗎所以我們一定要有一個新住民發展署了就是讓新住民來去發展我們現在這個部分我們要寫我們定於本法通過五年內不是說現在馬上我們要有就是我們要希望的是說通過這個法以後"},{"start":5023.086,"end":5028.327,"text":"我們要有這樣子的規定有這樣子的優勢才是真正的是說我們要把它列出來我們優勢讓新住民優勢可以有這個機會大家也往這個目標來去努力但是我們要考試或者成為這邊的工作人員還要經過關關卡 對不對你要拿身份證十年以上"},{"start":5047.952,"end":5052.674,"text":"你才能有這個資格去當公務人員公職人員還有就是說我們兩岸關係也是一樣你要洗得十年以上你才能考這個公職人員公務人員所以說不是馬上我們有身分就是不要身分證就可以考所以說我們這個是最後的一關但是我們要有這樣子讓我們的新住民就是有這樣的機會我們是"},{"start":5077.267,"end":5104.543,"text":"就是達到一定收訊成人就是人員達1000人時調整就是金用的比例我們一定要說在我們的組織法裡面我們有說人才還有研究的這個部分的資料庫所以我們這個部分是我們一定要有這樣的未達到名額的時候我們就是說新住民可以出缺後再進行補足"},{"start":5105.423,"end":5116.912,"text":"這個部分就是我們談心很大但是我們要有這樣子的一個機會一個平台就是讓新住民新二代有這個優先還有就是有這樣的機會可以進來當這樣子的一個"},{"start":5120.214,"end":5138.029,"text":"一個工作機會 我們的目的是這樣子所以不是說馬上就是我們一定要這樣子 我們也可以說只要新住民就好 新二代就好 沒有啊對不對 我們是說有這個方向 有這個目的 有這個機會讓大家就是往這個目標走 以上 謝謝好 請省委員好 下一位總委員 這個我想跟 這個"},{"start":5148.24,"end":5159.032,"text":"有關於這個修正動議的部分這個我想我上次在質詢的時候大概有講過就是說新住民我們對於新住民的保障我們"},{"start":5160.475,"end":5177.122,"text":"有一個很重要的觀念就是他不能夠比照對原住民的保障原住民你一代是原住民你十代之後你還是原住民那對於原住民的特殊保障他第一基於憲法第二基於過去原住民的在這個歷史遭遇這個這個"},{"start":5180.003,"end":5203.151,"text":"他到十代他依然具備原住民的血統他在過去歷史上面所累積下來對他們不公平的對待我們這個社會與他保障但是新住民你來的第一代是新住民你保障到第二代新住民子女可能因為他剛來你到第三代第四代第五代你不能說十代之後他還是新住民他還必須擁有特殊的保障這個不行"},{"start":5204.651,"end":5220.565,"text":"所以新住民的保障跟原住民的保障它是不能类比不能直接拿原住民的保障整套想要搬过来在新住民上面使用我认为这个是我上次在咨询的时候就提过这个是这样的观念是不对的就像当初我们其他除了"},{"start":5221.286,"end":5239.293,"text":"除了原住民新住民以外其他現在台灣的這些漢人每一個人來的他當初來的時候都是新住民他不能說經過五代之後他還說我是新住民外省人說經過經過五代外省人說還說我是外省人沒有已經沒有這種省台灣現在已經沒有這種省級的問題了大家彼此也沒有再分本省外省"},{"start":5240.193,"end":5259.623,"text":"所以你不能說來的第三代、第四代、第五代他還是要有特殊的待遇,我認為這個是不妥的所以這個法在這邊訂立說各項公務人員的這些禁用必須要優先有行住民身份,我認為這是不妥的包括現在的客委會,客委會也沒有這一條"},{"start":5260.123,"end":5270.029,"text":"沒有這一條 各位會的這個組織法第六條本會各職等官職等員而另以編制表定職他也沒有說應該要優先禁用客家人 沒有"},{"start":5271.155,"end":5292.924,"text":"所以我認為說在這裡這個增訂這個優先進入新住民的身份我認為是有很大的疑慮也甚至有這個對於有這個憲法上面的違背憲法的疑慮所以我個人是如果說但是如果說大家我也尊重說如果說大家有各種不一樣的意見那我也是提案說這條先予保留好 剛剛莊委員先舉手然後再來王委員"},{"start":5299.95,"end":5320.607,"text":"我是覺得保留了,這麼多不同黨派的委員在這個地方,我們思考點會不同這個議題也許我沒有跟上,但是我必須要講的就是說對於原住民的一個保障,這個確實在我們憲法徵求條文裡面講得很清楚"},{"start":5321.668,"end":5345.17,"text":"原住民的在把它位階提升到憲法層次有它特別的意義喔尤其是過去的原住民以跟漢飛援來講的話是那確實是地位經濟上各方面那確實確實是政府是對原住民有所虧欠喔"},{"start":5345.971,"end":5365.772,"text":"那所以會提升到原住民裡面,這個有它特殊的一個意義,它有這個身份以後,那是受到國家的保障。那你現在反而,你去做一個思考,你說新住民進來以後,你說新住民,第一代新住民,他是不是要擁有像原住民一樣的保障?"},{"start":5366.88,"end":5389.458,"text":"我認為層次會不一樣的地方就是,你進來你第一代進來,第二代進來,第二代第三代你不能想說我還是新住民,不是,不能繼續這樣去講你去看任何一個國家,你一個移民接受的國家去,他也不行,像到美國到英國到其他地方,我也不會講說移民來了以後什麼都優先,不會喔"},{"start":5390.868,"end":5409.16,"text":"也沒有國家會弄僵的一個政策只是說那成為我們的國民以後他的基本人權當然要一樣國家本來就是要去照顧他所以我對於說新住民優先這個部分要等同原住民這個我認為這個要再考慮所以我看其實先保留了王委員"},{"start":5414.268,"end":5436.37,"text":"我想這個條文討論到現在我想也可能就是必須要保留因為這個提案在這麼多原來的提案中除了鄭天才委員他可能是基於原住民組織法裡面他定了就是說要優先禁用具有新住民身份"},{"start":5437.571,"end":5463.482,"text":"之外那其他的提案各黨團的提案其實大家都有一致的這個共識那我的建議是就說內政部是不是還在跟麥玉珍委員然後再做一些溝通好不好在我們這個法條在進行我們的這個協商的時候之前再做一些溝通那這個條文我們就先予以保留謝謝"},{"start":5466.155,"end":5490.947,"text":"好 那吳委員這一條當然大家都已經講了那我覺得憲法的原則立法院真的要克遵憲法這跟新住民的狀況跟原住民的狀況當然不一樣新住民未來取得國籍就是國人的身份如果這裡再開了一個禁用公務體系的特權跟後門我覺得這個就違反了憲法的平等原則"},{"start":5491.827,"end":5517.837,"text":"我們真的不要輕易的在違反憲法的規範了那其實是這樣啦我們在場的委員其實我聽了連紅衛代表國民黨的黨編好像國民黨委員也都同意原本的條文嘛其實是也是尊重鄭天才委員的第二項啦那麥玉珍委員您當然可能一定會為你們的新住民族群來發言如果以現場要保留"},{"start":5519.229,"end":5536.224,"text":"也行啦 只是我說在場大部分是希望維持原來多數委員的這個條文啦就主席您看看要怎麼採釋其實這一條也可以不保留的啦我的意思是這樣 因為共識其實蠻高的 但尊重主席好 張委員"},{"start":5539.256,"end":5561.743,"text":"其實只要能夠參加國家考試他一定已經拿到中華民國的身份證了他已經從新住民的身份轉換為中華民國的國民台灣人了所以你如果說再做什麼優先禁用或什麼的我覺得這樣子是非常奇怪的我覺得立法要有立法的品質不能"},{"start":5562.683,"end":5568.959,"text":"不能我們這個立法出去被人家笑所以我是覺得看要保留也好或是要處理也好"},{"start":5571.607,"end":5597.299,"text":"我就看大家的意思啦因為其實前幾條已經保留那其實保留跟通過其實到寫上的時候都是可以拿出來討論即使今天通過寫上的時候也是可以討論所以其實我個人是覺得差別不大尊重各位的意見好那我們就第六條的部分就予以保留好那我們現在審查第七條第七條有台灣民眾黨也有國民黨黨團有提案"},{"start":5597.699,"end":5609.817,"text":"另外有鄭天才、張志如、葉元之、羅美玲等四人各自有提案此外還有黃國昌等四人所提的修正動議請問各位委員就本條的部分有沒有要做提案說明或要補充"},{"start":5613.525,"end":5641.98,"text":"這個提案條文大家都一樣因為我們前面那個內政部組織法就是公佈後三個月施行那這個條文我們已經做保留了嗎其實這個是跟那個內政部組織法是連動的那我建議就是先予以保留到時候我們一併來做處理好不好好那請問各位有沒有不同的意見沒有的話那我們第七條的部分也予以保留"},{"start":5644.121,"end":5665.776,"text":"好 那本案逐條審查均已處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完均 擬拒審查報告其請院會公決 那本案須交到黨團協商院會討論時由吳釗濟委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法字用於授權主席及事人員處理"},{"start":5669.141,"end":5674.297,"text":"好 議程所列事項已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}